# Not trying to poke a grizzly....



## metalsped (Nov 18, 2012)

...but why do you all still run pre-EPA stoves? A matter of cost? Dont want to adopt new technology? What exactly?

I truly want to know, instead of just trying to 'troll'? I know I personally LOVE the smell of wood smoke coming from a chimney (though I know its unburnt fuel/heat for your house). I figure there has to be a few reasons why folks arent running newer gear. Curious I guess is all.


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## Tramontana (Nov 18, 2012)

It wasn't a choice for us.  The Colorado front range can have such poor wintertime air quality, that too many days were deemed no burn days.  EPA rated stove allows burning anytime regardless of regulations.

Can't speak for others, but I find your question of interest too.

Cheers!


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## PapaDave (Nov 18, 2012)

Until sometime in the spring, it's a cost issue. Then, it becomes a choice of stove issue.
Cat, non-cat, cast iron, steel, stone, size, ......
If, when we first moved here, I knew what I know now, a new stove would already be in the house.


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## Kenny78 (Nov 18, 2012)

Well, 500 dollars for an insert with blowers that needed a fabricated adapter(which the wife and I made) sounds a whole lot better than 1600 for a Napoleon or 1900 for a buck w/o blowers. Which sounded a lot better than heating with elec. wall heaters and a poorly designed fireplace. It's also nice to have a stove just like my grandparents had and is still cranking out heat. Now I'm in NE OK but other than a circulating fan to encourage air exchange through the house I have no electric usage for heat. There is also nothing in the firebox except firebrick and an angle tray for firebrick baffle, so no cats or air tubes to wear out. I suppose other climates(especially political) might have other considerations


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## defiant3 (Nov 19, 2012)

In my case, it's just far more cost effective.  We actually heat w/wood for the cost benefit, not just cause it's cool.  My old Defiant burns cleanly enough, holds lots of wood, and there ain't much to go wrong in there, just a bunch of iron.  I do hear good things about those "Englanders" though, and they're reasonable, sort of...


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## metalsped (Nov 19, 2012)

Hopefully a bunch more folks chime in... thanks to all who have already


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## rkshed (Nov 20, 2012)

It was cost for us.
It cost us about $100 total for the old Garrison ready to burn and all of my 8 cords is scrounged.
Now we love it and 73degrees is the new 65!
As said before, the pre epa stoves are wicked simple. little can really go wrong and we are on our 2nd year without buying oil.


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## jjs777_fzr (Nov 20, 2012)

Curiosity and Nostalgia.   
My main heat sources are an epa exempt wood stove (2006 model) and a pellet stove.
However I bought a old Upland Model 17, 27 and Fisher Baby Bear stove.
Right now the Fisher is running w/a self modified internal baffle.
To be honest once its going its not pushing out visible smoke - although I know its not efficient like the epa exempt mode I have upstairs.
I'd love to modify it more with burn tubes and secondary air.  I like tinkering although don't really have the time I suppose.
I'll probably end up with a Englander 30 downstairs.
I should say that the small Fisher does push out smoke if I don't leave the door open until it gets up to temperature - say 300F - then I can close the door and leave the single intake open 1 turn from closed.
Sorry for the rant...so curiosity and nostalgia.   Oh...the nostalgia piece comes from remembering sitting at home on cold nights with my parents when I was probably 14-15 and looking over wood stove catalogs wishing we could get one installed - that was around 1984-85 time frame.  I have my mom looking for that catalog.  Dare they throw anything away....I bet she finds it


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## Scols (Nov 22, 2012)

If the EPA is as well run as NOAA ,NMFS, and all the other overbloated goverment agencies, I will take their guidelines with a grain of salt and continue to use an old stove with seasoned wood.


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## pen (Nov 22, 2012)

Scols said:


> If the EPA is as well run as NOAA ,NMFS, and all the other overbloated goverment agencies, I will take their guidelines with a grain of salt and continue to use an old stove with seasoned wood.


 
Sounds like you've yet to run an EPA approved stove.

pen


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## gmule (Nov 22, 2012)

I keep my old stove around because I don't use it very much. My work horse is the Fireview. I will eventually replace the old stove but since I only use the old stove a couple of times a year I kind of put it on the back burner.


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## WhitePine (Nov 22, 2012)

pen said:


> Sounds like you've yet to run an EPA approved stove.
> 
> pen


 +1

When a government agency does something right (more heat for less wood with much less air pollution), they don't deserve to get slammed.


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## wazzu (Nov 23, 2012)

The folks I know use smoke dragons because they are the type of folks that live on about 10-15,000 a year. If they get a "new" anything its because it was a hand me down or virtually free. I know a number of people like this don't really give a damn about the EPA or anything the government has to say. Plus the old blaze kings, or earth stoves  that you mainly see in the NW are stoves that realistically last you a lifetime not like the newer stuff. I don,t think my PE will last 10 years.


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## Ozzie33 (Nov 23, 2012)

Cost.  After burning for 20+ years i needed a new stove.  i shopped around and for my application found my choice was $3000+ for new or an older stove for $250.  I have big house, burn 8 cords or so / year and live in a very rural area.  it was an obvious choice for me.  i seem to spend all the $$ on the kids anyway.


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## Peak and Pine (Nov 24, 2012)

Because I don't want my stove to look like a kitchen cooker with a glass oven door. I've got a Maytag for that. My wood stove is  a Bangor Foundry made in 1878 and in 1878 almost all of America was heating with wood or coal and they knew then more than we know now, basically how to make something as mammoth and obtrusive as a cast iron stove look really, really good. The same is true of iron radiators. But many years after when the opposite of heating was invented, air conditioning, America had progressed to a degree where they didn't give a crap about how the mechanics of living looked, and so you have never ever seen an attractive air conditioner. But my Bangor (I'm in Maine) Foundry baby is a thing to behold. It also cost 15 bucks at a yard sale. You're young, I gather. Your question suggests that.


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## Motor7 (Nov 24, 2012)

I have read a lot about the EPA stoves here and on other forums. I think they are great and I would not mind trying one someday, but I just don't see the need. My '86 H1 has secondary burn tubes & is rated at 100,000 btu when cooking. I can get an 8 hr burn every night and go through about a 2'x2'x2' stack of wood a day(6AM-10PM) loading morning mid day & night(heating 2500 sq ft) . When is is settled in on a burn there is no smoke. I live on 100 ac & 75 are mixed hardwoods, so burning a little more wood per year is no big deal. I like the way my stove looks and really don't care for the "pedestal TV" look of most EPA stoves. 

Wazzu my wife and I make over $100K a year & I am retired, my stove is not a hand me down. I bought it on CL and re-built it because that is what I wanted to do. Besides, don't look down your nose at folks that are blessed enough to have an old stove so they can spend that $15K a year on food and other needs. We are all not in the same financial boat to be able & run out and buy a new stove and that's just cold hard facts.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 24, 2012)

Cuttin ,stacking ,splitting ,hauling and drying wood is hard work. Any stove that would let you do 30-35% less of that for the same amount of heat is worth the price. If i were forced to keep using NON -EPA stoves id have given up wood burning a long time ago. To each his own though.IMHO


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## simple.serf (Nov 24, 2012)

My Enerzone is an appliance to heat the house with. It looks OK, but really, It's a black steel box. No beautiful castings or interesting design. I have found that I much prefer the operation, and looks of the older cat and non cat stoves that I have fired in the past. Much more controllable, especially for my wife.

When I was looking at stoves, the first thing I did was look up reviews on the modern VC line. I didn't like what I saw. What happened to the old reliable stoves of the past? I did more research and decided to take the plunge, and even if I didn't find this stove to my liking, half of the cost of the job was the chimney, and I  could always re-use that If I switched stoves.

Right now, With dry wood, I'm 50/50 on my EPA stove. Eventually, when we get a wood boiler going, I may try to restore an old Earth Stove, and put that in the house. It wouldn't be a daily workhorse, but they are really interesting stoves. The Enerzone would probably find it's way to the shop at that point.


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## Corey (Nov 24, 2012)

For me it was 'frugality' - I was ready to pull the trigger on a new $2300+ EPA stove, but found one in the classified ads I liked the looks of just as much...they were only asking $400.  I burnt it as a non-epa stove for the first year, then 'frugality' kicked in again and I was looking to maximize heat for minimum wood.  So a trip to the scrap yard got me a pile of stainless steel to build burn tubes and a secondary air system.  A little more work tightening up some of the gaskets and she burns pretty dang clean.

Between fairly good insulation, relatively mild winters and energy dense Hedge wood, I'm estimating I burn about 2.5-3 cords of wood a year.  'Free' from cutting or scrounging.  So even if a 'true' EPA stove could shave that down a bit, there isn't much gain for the additional $$$ expenditure.


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## littlalex (Nov 24, 2012)

Cash, baby, Cash - as one of a couple of old fixed income folks that spend more than comes in it's purely a matter of money. It's the reason I'm stuck buying this year's "seasoned" wood, one cord at a time and struggling to get it to burn as smoke free as possible in the old VC Vigilant that came with this cottage we had to downsize to when the taxes on our previous house went to 12K a year five years ago. We have a fine oil furnace which we used for the first two years but as oil went up and we were averaging about $600 or more monthly on heat the old cast iron beast was our salvation.

I would love to get a new non fancy EPA burner, but i'm not physically up to the installation so we're looking at about a 2k out of pocket expense. What Bill Clinton recently call "arithmetic" says that ain't going to happen.

BTW - I care passionately about the atmosphere and environment. Call me a guilty Smoke Dragon burner.

I think your question for many people is not about caring or knowledge.

Littlalex


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## ScotO (Nov 24, 2012)

My one buddy had a Mama Bear in his previous house, and it heated the house right fine, but it also was a smoldering beast when you cut it back.  He ended up with a chimney fire due to improperly seasoned wood, poor woodburning habits, and a crack in the chimney.  So they sell their house and a month ago in his new house we installed a Drolet EPA stove, with class A stainless pipe.  He is impressed with the stove, it more than heats the house and it does it efficiently.  If you can afford it, I would say to try and buy a modern EPA stove,  you'll be impressed.


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## metalsped (Nov 24, 2012)

Motor7 said:


> Besides, don't look down your nose at folks that are blessed enough to have an old stove so they can spend that $15K a year on food and other needs. We are all not in the same financial boat to be able & run out and buy a new stove and that's just cold hard facts.


 
Who said I was looking down?? Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I would have made it _very_ apparent if I were.


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## metalsped (Nov 24, 2012)

Thanks to all who have responded. For those where it came down to money... where do you personally draw the line from it being 'cost prohibitive' to upgrade? I know many folks here scrounge/have access to free wood, but I am sure not all who run the old beasts do. As a poster above mentioned, looking at the fuel cost is one way... time cost is another.

To further clarify my position for those who I may rub wrong with this thread... its just questions. I am not trying to belittle, or otherwise second guess anyone. Everything in life is a decision, and decisions are your own. Wont get any judgement from me.


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## pen (Nov 24, 2012)

metalsped said:


> Thanks to all who have responded. For those where it came down to money... where do you personally draw the line from it being 'cost prohibitive' to upgrade? I know many folks here scrounge/have access to free wood, but I am sure not all who run the old beasts do. As a poster above mentioned, looking at the fuel cost is one way... time cost is another.
> 
> To further clarify my position for those who I may rub wrong with this thread... its just questions. I am not trying to belittle, or otherwise second guess anyone. Everything in life is a decision, and decisions are your own. Wont get any judgement from me.


 
I bought my EPA approved Englander 30, 1 year used for 450 dollars.  That included an extra set of baffle boards (which would run over 100 bucks from the company).  I then sold my pre-epa Fisher on ebay (after a few new firebrick, and a coat of paint) for 475 dollars.

After doing that I save about 1.5 cord of wood a year, stove holds coals longer, chimney stays cleaner, and I have a nice glass window to look at when wondering what the stove is up to. 

In the end, the only thing that really needed to happen on my end was to get further ahead on my wood supply as EPA stoves need truly seasoned firewood to operate well.

If there's a will, there's a way.

pen


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## Peak and Pine (Nov 25, 2012)

The post above raises questions, first among them is how do you sell a 500 lb stove on eBay and don't you go broke on bubble wrap trying to do so? Second, I think that trading-in, and thus forsaking, a Bismark-class Fisher for something with a glass door and tubes and stuff does not precisely fit the parameters of what is being asked which, I think, is why do some of us prefer (as in keep, use and not sell) a non EPA stove, a belittling and somewhat snobbish phrase to describe the mega zillion stoves made prior to c. 1988 including the one by Jefferson as he worked on the Declaration, Dickens on Oliver Twist, my dad  as he wrote home in WWII and me as I tap on this laptop. We do not refer to my '56 T-Bird as a non-hybrid despite the newer standard set by the Prius.

Some very decent replies have been made here to this question, mostly from older folks long accustomed to burning, folks who know that heating with wood is basically bringing the campfire inside, putting a lid on it and keeping the house warm and still standing. Still, the minutiae of the modern stove which fascinates those on the larger forum is  appreciated by me and probably most of us here on the tiny one, but we don't necessarily want to be dragged along. And should this sound antiquated to you, and it is, nicely so, remember this conversation is not being conducted over the back-40 fence with a hay straw in our mouths, but here on the net. So just how thoroughly antiquated could we be?


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## Rebel Wood (Nov 25, 2012)

Wow! This may be turning into the most emotional thread I have ever seen on this forum. I still burn a pre-EPA stove, primarily for efficiency. I would like to upgrade, but get concerned when I read the many threads questioning stove problems I have never experienced in 37 years of burning. On a bigger scale, my postion with an HVAC contractor puts me in homes on a daily basis. I can tell you, even in rather affluent Bucks, & Montgomery counties pre -EPA stoves still rule 10to 1, some of the applications still out there would amaze. A true testament to the effort put into the 70's energy crisis, there are some brilliant set ups out there, some still in daily use, some have been cold for 20+ years. I really think the OP was trying to ask a simple, not controversial question.


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## Dune (Nov 25, 2012)

My pre-EPA stove is not in-efficient. It is a gassifier (the first known gassifier). It has a HUGE firebox. It is extremely easy to operate. 
I lit it once so far this year. (still burning) I can get 12 hour or more burns from pine. With the cold predicted for the north east for the next few days, I switched to a better wood, soft maple, mixed with pine, half and half. After the January thaw, I will switch to oak and cherry, and just burn pine on super cold nights when I need to burn off excess oak coals. I don't burn wet or improperly seasoned wood. I have the next four years worth of wood already stacked on my property. 
For me, cost is definitely a factor, but it is untrue that I; 
A. Burn a smoke dragon. My gassifier is very efficient.
B. Don't care about the atmosphere. I do. Very Much. That is why I season my wood properly. I burn less wood that way.

I am looking for a good deal on a used insert, been looking for a while. Until a find the right deal, I will continue to use my Tempwood. 
When I find the right insert for the right price, I will make it as efficient as a modern stove by modifying it, if need be, because that is what I do.


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## Scols (Nov 25, 2012)

Is a person being irresponsible if he drives a car built before catalytic converters even if it's a beautiful and does the job it was intended for perfectly? Absolutely not. So why should a perfectly good stove be discarded just because the EPA says something is better. For those who are wondering, I have used an EPA stove and found they run just as poorly with bad fuel as a pre EPA stove. Besides, I prefer the looks of my 70's  Better N Ben and my 1880's Forrest Oak stove. And by the way, I make a decent living and care deeply about my enviroment since my living depends on it. I just dont need big brother telling me how to keep my house warm. Let them go after the industrial polluters. Oh wait I forgot big money can pollute as much as they want.


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## georgepds (Nov 25, 2012)

New member here.. very old stove user

I've got a Jotul combifire #4 that I've been using since the mid 80s (~30 years) , and I've grown used to the old thing.I know how to start a fire in it, and keep it going. That, and I like the look of the stove, very distinctive (Easter island head) . Cost for the Jotul was $0, the previous owner's wife made him throw it out, and he offered it to me for free.

The jotul works pretty well because
1) I always use dry wood
2) the chimney is about 25' from stove to peak and draws like a charm

That said, I'm getting tired of hauling so much wood, and am considering a new EPA non catalytic stove, in the hope that efficiency would improve. What gives me pause is the cast iron ones ( that look good to me, Hearthstone and Vt castings) are all very expensive. The steel ones , that appeal to me to me (Englander 30-nc or Drolet Myriad), and are reasonably priced, just don't look as good (to me) as the old Jotul

FWIIW.. you just don't see smoke pouring out my chimney. I know this is only partially related to pollutants, but is an indication that combustion is near total. The chimney is always clean too..I suspect that's because the Jotul leaks, and is not starved for air


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## Motor7 (Nov 27, 2012)

metalsped said:


> Who said I was looking down?? Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I would have made it _very_ apparent if I were.


 

That was directed at Wazzu, but even reading it now(without inflection) I am not sure of his intention. Either way, we are all opinionated in one way or another about our stoves. Sorry, but there _are_ those that do look down their noses at non EPA stoves and that's ok. To be honest, I'd rather not drag the EPA agency into this since we are talking about max efficiency....EPA or no EPA...right?


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## TX-L (Nov 27, 2012)

Dollars, I guess. I have eight older stoves of varying types: 1 OLD box stove, 3 OLD cook stoves, 1 OLD pot-belly, 1 each pre-EPA Lopi, Timberline, & Bullard. Only one is hooked up and used; at the camp, and is only used randomly from fall to spring, probably a half dozen times per year. I certainly don't want to spend $xxxx on a new stove for the very limited use it would see. And one of these is going to go in the new garage this year, soon. I think the Lopi, but haven't yet decided. Perhaps I could sell all / most / some of these stoves and get a new one... an Englander 30 comes to mind...

BUT ~ It sure is nice to have a modern stove in the house after growing up with a Home Comfort cook stove in the kitchen as the only heat source during my youth!


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## StihlHead (Nov 27, 2012)

It is not that cut and dry, really. I wood argue that just becasue a stove is older and pre-EPA, it does not burn less efficiently. There are many types of older pre-EPA stoves that are very good efficient stoves, like my older Earth Stove that has secondary air injection systems into the top of the stove area and into the stack. Oregon has a whole list of pre-EPA stoves that are certified by the DEQ (state level equivalent to the EPA) that qualify as clean burning. Here is the link to the DEQ pre/non-EPA better burning stove list:

http://www.deq.state.or.us/aq/burning/woodstoves/DEQcertifiedStoves.pdf

You could also take the argument one further and ask why doesn't everyone run a WA state certified stove, that has way better quality emissions standards? They are available now. My Englander 30 is not only EPA certfied, it is also WA state certified... it is efficient, and burns cleaner than a certified EPA stove! You could also say the same about CAT stoves, or any of the other better burning stoves out there.


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## otsegony (Nov 29, 2012)

This is a very interesting thread for me.  I run an older pre-EPA woodstove in a new (2004) house.  Presently, the stove which is located in my basement is the sole source of heat for my home.  I have an oil-fired radiant floor hydronic system, but it has been my back up for the last few years as heating oil prices have risen to almost $4 gallon here. I had originally intended to add a wood-fired boiler like a Tarm to run the radiant system. But as we spent our building budget that turned into an improvement to add later on. Since the 8" chimney was already installed I decided to but a woodstove in the basement and see how much of the heating load it could handle. I have many years of wood heat experience going back to the early 1980s when I moved to rural Vermont.  I found an old guy a couple of towns away who refurbed and sold used stoves.  He was an amazing source of information and although he was well up in his 80s was able to move very heavy stoves around his barn with a very complete set of dollys, jacks and levers. I selected a Canadian built clone of a Fisher Grandpa Bear.  At almost 500lbs, it was a real bear to move into my basement!
I was pleasantly surprised from the beginning that it could heat the whole house down to the single digits.  Anything below that and I fire up the radiant system to keep the second floor warm.  At this moment it is about 27 degrees outside, 71 degrees in the basement, 70 degrees on the first floor and 67 degrees in our upstairs bedroom.  Pretty good for a stove that cost me $400 plus my labor to hook up.
Aside from my basic frugal nature that finds it hard to pull out a stove that is working perfectly well I continue to use this stove because:

I have run Fisher and similar stoves for many years and find they work well and burn cleanly.  I am reluctant to go through the learning curve of a new stove.
Stoves from this era are virtually indestructible and will last a lifetime, each time I investigated a new stove and look at the feedback on line I discover problems with the quality of manufacturing or materials.  
If something breaks on the stove it is so simple that it can be repaired using standard materials (firebrick) or by any competent welder. 
The economics of pulling out this stove and replacing it with a $2500 or so model to save some wood when I harvest all of my own fuel just don't add up.
I still plan on putting in a Tarm or the like someday, but will have to save a longtime to pay the $15k price tab of a boiler and heat storage water tank system.
Some things that I definitely do not like about some of the newer EPA stoves that I have seen:

Fussy catalytic systems that require replacement every few years 
Poor quality metals and welding that limit the lifespan of the stove
Proprietary parts that will be difficult to replace if the company goes belly up or gets bought out
Thanks for asking!


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## metalsped (Nov 29, 2012)

You are welcome. I like reading the responses. Not sure if a thread like this has been posted in the past few years, but I figured... why not?


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## eclecticcottage (Nov 30, 2012)

We've got a pre epa fireplace thing (the Temco). It's not a stove. I consider a fireplace built in. So it's a thing.

Anyway, we aren't using it at the moment but do plan to.

We heat with the Lopi because the old Fisher that was here was in poor shape and we didn't know how to recondition it, nor how to get it reinstalled even if we did, AND because the clearances it needed sucked compared to the Republic. We sold the Fisher on Ebay to a guy that came and picked it up-he planned to fix it up and use it. I think it was a Papa Bear. It was certainly a bear to move, lol.

We have the Temco in an unheated sunporch with a concrete floor. It will be used whenever we want to sit out there, although I am almost positive we'll need to crack a window or get roasted, lol. It's there because we like it. The looks, the large open viewing area, the lack of doors or glass. It doesn't hurt that DH grew up in a house with a similar model (probably a Preway-it was red with a black eagle on it). Plus it'll burn the longer stuff we can't fit in the Lopi. It's got quite a log area.

Temco:






Pines, I'd LOVE to see a photo of your stove. I love antique stoves. If I could get myself to trust the gas versions I'd have one in my dining room. As it is though, eventually I'd like a (dv) thelin parlour there to replace my VF (backup heat, so it needs to be lp instead of wood).


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## Peak and Pine (Dec 1, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Pines, I'd LOVE to see a photo of your stove. I love antique stoves.


 
I will buy me a new-fangled camera someday because I don't think I can upload with a Brownie. The stove is tiny, dated 1878, good lookin', purchased 12 years ago, sat in storage for 10, decided autumn before last to cook it up, didn't know where, so began to build a tiny house for it (12'x16') which is nearing completion, working on hearth and surround today, cement board, tiles, oak from a desk I cut up. It's 16-degrees and snowing here and am cheating with a kerosene heater which is keeping me sorta toasty. Thanx for asking.


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 1, 2012)

Peak and Pine said:


> I will buy me a new-fangled camera someday because I don't think I can upload with a Brownie. The stove is tiny, dated 1878, good lookin', purchased 12 years ago, sat in storage for 10, decided autumn before last to cook it up, didn't know where, so began to build a tiny house for it (12'x16') which is nearing completion, working on hearth and surround today, cement board, tiles, oak from a desk I cut up. It's 16-degrees and snowing here and am cheating with a kerosene heater which is keeping me sorta toasty. Thanx for asking.


 
Does it have mica windows?  I LOVE the base burners.

I had this vision of someone trying to stick a usb cord into the little holes in the side of a Hawkeye flash (where the flash mounts).  I'm partial to Herbert George (like Imperial and Savoy) designed cameras.

Wow...and I thought we had a small house.


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## Peak and Pine (Dec 2, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Does it have mica windows? I LOVE the base burners.
> 
> I had this vision of someone trying to stick a usb cord into the little holes in the side of a Hawkeye flash (where the flash mounts). I'm partial to Herbert George (like Imperial and Savoy) designed cameras.
> 
> Wow...and I thought we had a small house.


 
No mica, all iron. However, the kerosene number I'm using in the clutch does have mica, or_ isinglass_ as it's known to me. It's almost as old as the wood stove, came from a parlor car on a train. Yes the tiny house is tiny. It's in a hollow out back of a not-so-tiny house where I am at the moment. When Tiny House and Tiny Stove  get a bit more photographable, late winter maybe, I'll bring it forth here in a thread, and get poked at probably for the non-EPA-ness of it all. But that's what this thread's about isn't it. Again, thnx for your interest.


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## pen (Dec 2, 2012)

Peak and Pine said:


> and get poked at probably for the non-EPA-ness of it all.


 
I'm unsure as to why you believe anyone would jab you for running a pre-EPA unit.

No matter the stove, if it's a safe install, burnt well, and you enjoy it, there isn't boo anyone can or should say!

Also, items sold on ebay can be specified as local pick-up only 

pen


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## Peak and Pine (Dec 2, 2012)

pen said:


> I'm unsure as to why you believe anyone would jab you for running a pre-EPA unit.


 
Really? Read the responses on the main forum to the currently running Pipe And Chimney Confusion thread. And I understand how eBay works. (I actually bought a Volvo there.) Wood burning and whimsy, not a mix for these parts perhaps?


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## Oldhippie (Dec 2, 2012)

pen said:


> Sounds like you've yet to run an EPA approved stove.
> 
> pen


 
Ever hear of the Florida Bungalow Syndrome? Basically all of the EPA rules said "let's write the standards so there will be no offensive pollution from a single story bungalow chimney in the Florida Everglades. If it is good there, it'll be good anywhere".

Just what we need a standard for wood stoves written to be compliant in someplace that doesn't need them. I have yet to see a Florida resident ask a question in this forum.

Here's the original Florida Bungalow Report.


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## dsljim (Dec 5, 2012)

I like that bungalow report,reminds me of burning my Hardy and Taylor years ago
 These 30-35% wood savings are proven where?  Like a salesman telling me I could save money by buying a new truck,a new diesel Burns twice as much fuel per gallon as now.
 Every month in my electric bill there's a little propaganda sheet telling me to update my appliances to save electric, what a crock that is, I bought a kill-a-watt and cut my bill 1/3 by switching from a 40 year old freeezer to a 70 year old.
 There's no smoke and nothing stuck in the pipe of my 30 year old Hearthstone,  and I built the baffle and secondary tubing from stainless and refractory so if in 30 or 40 years it gives me problems I'll do it again.
I bet if you can find an old brochure that in there they stated they used cast iron because it was cheap, wouldn't last, and replacement parts would cost more than the entire stove did new.
In my engineering manuals it says the fire box should be the same shape as a flame,and nowhere should the flame come into contact with iron or steel.


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## pen (Dec 5, 2012)

dsljim said:


> These 30-35% wood savings are proven where?


 
There are 1.25 million posts on this site. A damn good portion of them are from folks who have actual burning experience with both types of units who are surprised with what they gain when they switch from one type to another. I am one of those folks. I LOVED my fisher stove, but due to deterioration of my chimney, I needed at add a liner. I didn't have enough room to install a liner large enough to feed the fisher, so I had to let it go. In doing so, I was surprised to find that my switch to an Englander 30 changed my wood consumption from 5.5 to 6 cord a year down to 4-4.5 cord. I also found that the chimney stayed cleaner and the stove held a fire and coals longer than the fisher could. With the fisher, on cold winter days I'd come home to a 60 degree house and be able to get it up to 70 within an hour. With the 30, on a similar day, I'll now come home to a 65 degree house, but it still takes the hour to get things up to 70. In other words, after trying things out, the only advantage the fisher had was that it could heat things up quicker if necessary, but since the new unit hold a fire longer, that isn't much of an issue.

I'm certainly not a hater of vintage stoves, I just like to make certain that folks considering one are well informed. While I have a modern stove in my home, my cabin still uses 2 vintage stoves (a timberline and an atlanta huntsman which I just restored https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/atlanta-huntsman-hunting-camp-project.92569/ to replace our worn out atlanta homesteader) and I also operate several non-epa units (kalamazoo cook stove, fisher mama bear, double barrel stove) at other locations regularly and I have no plans on changing them out as they do all we need there, and efficiency isn't as important, plus I'm just plain nostalgic about them.

As far as the Florida bungalow syndrome, it happens in some cases simply because of the type of chimney found on the home. Dealing with it is no different than one person running X vintage stove and needing a chimney damper because of their draft, while another person using the same unit on a different chimney doesn't need that. That is simply an explanation for the observations that some folks have found. No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

At the end of the day, to answer the OP question, I had to switch to a modern stove due to the chimney and have been happy since then with doing it as it had many benefits. However, I WAS very happy with my pre-epa unit. Had my chimney not been the deciding factor, I would still be running that fisher and not knowing what I was missing as it did do the job honorably.

For my cabin and other places that I still use vintage stoves, they do the job and a change simply wouldn't gain us anything in those locations considering the usage.

For the average burner, I think many folks simply figure if it isn't broke, don't fix it. If what they have does the job safely, then why change when there are so many other things to spend money on. I keep 2 older vehicles around for the same reason. Sure I could get better gas mileage with a newer unit, and other benefits, but they are simply too solid to give up and as such I accept and am willing to pay for the inefficiency. At least for the time being.

pen


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

dsljim said:


> Every month in my electric bill there's a little propaganda sheet telling me to update my appliances to save electric, what a crock that is, I bought a kill-a-watt and cut my bill 1/3 by switching from a 40 year old freeezer to a 70 year old.


 
It really depends in this regard.  Our 1950's Norge appears to be using slightly less electric than our 200? Kenmore, but we didn't use a meter on that outlet so I'm not positive.  While they had almost the same footprint, I think the Norge is a bit smaller though too.  However, I imagine the Kenmore would use less than a 1970's era version.  Somewhere in the 60's fridges started becoming electric vampires.

Rather like the hype over energy star rated windows vs originals.  A well kept original is as good as any new window.

Our 1970's era pickup gets about the same mileage as a new one.

I've never burned comparable sized pre EPA and EPA stoves so I can't really say for sure if they DO use less wood and create fewer emmissions.  It IS possible though.  I think some times technology does actually do what it's intended to-I bet an old tube TV uses more electric than a similarly sized new Energy Star rated one.  I know for sure that my new hot water tank uses WAY gas less than my old one.  I don't think that the old stoves are as BAD as some people think they are, more than a lot of people practice poor burning techniques and make them appear worse.  Although, I would bet that there are people burning EPA stoves the same way and causing smoke and emissions and using more wood than they should-however, I think the design of them makes it so it's not as "easy" to do as with the pre-EPA stoves.  I know my Lopi HATES unseasoned wood and it burns like #^^$ with it.  I'll bet the cone could handle it better...although I hope not to find out :D


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## jharkin (Dec 6, 2012)

Oldhippie said:


> I have yet to see a Florida resident ask a question in this forum.


 
We did just this week.

But agree that state is not our core constituency


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## jharkin (Dec 6, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Rather like the hype over energy star rated windows vs originals. A well kept original is as good as any new window.


 
For some reason I just pictured Jade coming over here and jumping into one of the "I just replaced all my 18th century windows with triple pane wohoo!" threads in DIY and stirring up some fun.

(sorry to 99.9% of folks here... the small contingent of ohw refugees here gets this)



> I've never burned comparable sized pre EPA and EPA stoves so I can't really say for sure if they DO use less wood and create fewer emmissions. It IS possible though


 
Like Pen above I have. Grew up with a first generation Resolute that my Dad still burns actively. Bought a house with a catalytic Encore. Now the encore is bigger (2.2 vs. 1.8 i think?) but even so... I can toss 4 splits in and be warm for 6 hours.. At my Dad's place we would be reloading in a half the time. And freezing on the second floor (more to due with stove size).

But I dont have anything against those old stoves so long as they are operated right. I still use my open fireplaces


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

jharkin said:


> For some reason I just pictured Jade coming over here and jumping into one of the "I just replaced all my 18th century windows with triple pane wohoo!" threads in DIY and stirring up some fun.
> 
> (sorry to 99.9% of folks here... the small contingent of ohw refugees here gets this)


 
Lol...and I think Jade might be a good addition to hearth.com in that regard.  It's hard to believe sometimes, after having "new windows=good, old windows=evil" pounded into your head for so many years.  ALTHOUGH, I do recall one of the energy upgrade type companies running a spot a few years back about how it was basically hype and only 5% of your total heat lose is through windows thing like that).  A beautiful 1820's house we looked at years ago is back on the market...with "new energy efficient" windows.  Such a crime-on top of it they did something wrong in the process and you can see at least one brick wall is now buckled a bit.  I'm just happy we have some originals...and hopefully can replace the (junk) replacements (which are actually andersons, not cheap builder grade) with nice old ones eventually too.


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## Oldhippie (Dec 6, 2012)

jharkin said:


> We did just this week.
> 
> But agree that state is not our core constituency


 
I'll be... I never woulda' thunk it. I guess us firebugs are everywhere.


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## pen (Dec 6, 2012)

Oldhippie said:


> I'll be... I never woulda' thunk it. I guess us firebugs are everywhere.


 
Yep, it happens was a fella from Fla a while back with a Fisher Grandpa Bear in his home


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## jharkin (Dec 6, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Lol...and I think Jade might be a good addition to hearth.com in that regard. It's hard to believe sometimes, after having "new windows=good, old windows=evil" pounded into your head for so many years. ALTHOUGH, I do recall one of the energy upgrade type companies running a spot a few years back about how it was basically hype and only 5% of your total heat lose is through windows thing like that). A beautiful 1820's house we looked at years ago is back on the market...with "new energy efficient" windows. Such a crime-on top of it they did something wrong in the process and you can see at least one brick wall is now buckled a bit. I'm just happy we have some originals...and hopefully can replace the (junk) replacements (which are actually andersons, not cheap builder grade) with nice old ones eventually too.


 
We are lucky to still have 6 over 9s upstairs with working counterweights. They might be pre 1900 but certainly not original. Fantastic windows tho, smoother operation than any spring or friction track I've ever come across. Im going to take apart the spring track wooden 6 over 6s downstairs next summer for reglazing and will be asking the window queen about track replacement options.

There is a house in town similar to ours but newer... Also 1820ish.. Last year they put up a huge new addition in place of an old ell, even went to the trouble of matching the 6 over 6 windows in the original part of the house with real wood divided lite 6over6 in the addition.

Then a month later what happens? All the original windows get ripped out for 1 over 1 vinyl. ?????!!


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## valley ranch (Oct 29, 2013)

I'd like to encourage anyone with and older stove to build or have built a secondary air. There are some great examples of facebook. Guys on this forum have shown how they have done theirs.

I'm building one now for a stove that works well as is but will work that much better when I install it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying they're fibbing when they say" They bought a brand new up to date stove and where, they used to burn 57 cords and last year they only burned 6 splits.

But I think I'll do as our fellows who have added this fix to their older stoves and enjoy my great old Centennial as much or more than I always have.

It's snowing right now and its nice and warm in here. I picked up a wire welder, I'm using 2" square tubing to make a rectangle, I'll use round pipe to run a couple tubes across inside that, I'll weld 4  3/4" couplings, one in each corner of the square tube { holes of course so air can pass through} when 3/4" pipe is screwed into each coupling they will act as legs and from the bottom of these the pipe will exit the stove where the secondary air will enter.
I have some 3/4" gas line that I salvaged when working on the line at the lower ranch, we're going down there tomorrow, n I'll bring it back.
Been kinda busy but a couple three hours more and I should be able to bring it up and fit it into this great old stove. Bought it new when I was a young fellow just building this place, before wife n I met. I love wifey, she means way more to me than that old stove but I plan to keep em both. When I get the fire going and she brings me coffee in my favourite cup n smiles and touches my cheek. Well, I.......................


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2013)

There are different ways to be frugal. Some times you have to spend money to be frugal. IN 2002 when oil was goin thru the roof i did the math and put a new stoker$2650) on a credit card. Paid that card off before winter was over for less money than it would have cost to burn oil for the whole winter which was about $4000.


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## valley ranch (Oct 29, 2013)

I've read threads on Classic wood stoves a fellow asking something about a stove or installation. Guys responding on this thread for no good reason but to pick at and make the guy feel bad. Why you driving that old car buy a new one. This is CLASSIC STOVE FOURM. Some people just joined this forum, ask a question and are treated rudely. Maybe there should be a RUDE DUDE FORUM for those who enjoy that sort of thing. 

Let's be nice, if we can't help a mate or don't want to, don't say anything. 





I have a Model A, a 66 Riviera and a couple great older stoves in our ranch houses. Old thing are good, like our Uncle Arnold and the Bible.


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## pen (Oct 29, 2013)

valley ranch said:


> I've read threads on Classic wood stoves a fellow asking something about a stove or installation. Guys responding on this thread for no good reason but to pick at and make the guy feel bad. Why you driving that old car buy a new one. This is CLASSIC STOVE FOURM. Some people just joined this forum, ask a question and are treated rudely. Maybe there should be a RUDE DUDE FORUM for those who enjoy that sort of thing.
> 
> Let's be nice, if we can't help a mate or don't want to, don't say anything.
> 
> I have a Model A, a 66 Riviera and a couple great older stoves in our ranch houses. Old thing are good, like our Uncle Arnold and the Bible.



Nothing wrong with an older stove so long as it is installed correctly and still up to the task of doing it's job (as in not shot).

Also, many times folks don't understand what is out there on the market today in terms of a quality stove at a reasonable price.  I often see folks as they get sticker shock by looking at high end modern stoves and think that is their only option.  Additionally, they may not know the benefits that a modern stove has to offer.

The other concern is that many folks don't know that non-ul or non-epa stoves can be illegal to install in certain areas as well as unacceptable to many insurance companies.

At the end of the day this place is about making sure people can make informed choices.  If after going through the information presented they find a classic stove is right for them, that is outstanding.

If you think someone is simply being abusive for the sake of beating up on older stoves, and not posting for the goal of helping someone make that informed decision, use the report button.

pen


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## valley ranch (Oct 30, 2013)

Corey said:


> For me it was 'frugality' - I was ready to pull the trigger on a new $2300+ EPA stove, but found one in the classified ads I liked the looks of just as much...they were only asking $400.  I burnt it as a non-epa stove for the first year, then 'frugality' kicked in again and I was looking to maximize heat for minimum wood.  So a trip to the scrap yard got me a pile of stainless steel to build burn tubes and a secondary air system.  A little more work tightening up some of the gaskets and she burns pretty dang clean.
> 
> Between fairly good insulation, relatively mild winters and energy dense Hedge wood, I'm estimating I burn about 2.5-3 cords of wood a year.  'Free' from cutting or scrounging.  So even if a 'true' EPA stove could shave that down a bit, there isn't much gain for the additional $$$ expenditure.



Greetings, Cory, I'd like to see how you added the tubes. I'm working on a quickie secondary now. Bet you did it well. Please if you get a chance a picture would be great to see.

Richard


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## rowerwet (Oct 31, 2013)

the Fisher came with the house, if I have to line the chimney I will put in a Tempwood.
I just added the fire baffle to the Fisher, the increase in heat from the stove is great, 
since my wood is free, how much would I have to save to make the cost of a new stove worth it?


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## pen (Oct 31, 2013)

rowerwet said:


> the Fisher came with the house, if I have to line the chimney I will put in a Tempwood.
> I just added the fire baffle to the Fisher, the increase in heat from the stove is great,
> since my wood is free, how much would I have to save to make the cost of a new stove worth it?



Depends on what you are looking for.  Sounds like we have similar stories.

Added a baffle to my fisher and was pleased.  Got to the point that the chimney needed a liner but couldn't get one down large enough for the fisher so I started shopping.  Bought a used epa stove for 450 bucks.  The previous owner had the big stove in a single wide trailer and spent the winter with the windows open, was selling the stove to help pay for a pellet unit.

The fisher was a GREAT heater.  I could put that place to 80+ in sub zero Fahrenheit weather.  The fisher would hold a fire overnight, but couldn't during the day while I was at work, at least not without being damped down so low that it smoked all day.  That meant I often came home to a 60 degree house and had to start a new fire every evening.  It would take the stove about an hour to bring things back up to 70, so I wasn't complaining.

Hooked up the modern stove and I come home to a 65 degree house and still plenty of coals left to just throw wood on and go, but it still takes an hour to get things up to 70, but since the house is warmer to start and it's just a load, no paper, kindling, etc, it's a benefit.

The biggest thing was wood consumption, I was going through 5.5 to 6 cord a winter with the fisher.  The englander 30 I picked up does that same job on 4 to 4.5 cord of wood.  To boot, the chimney stays cleaner, house maintains a better average temp, and I have a big glass window for watching the fire.

In the end, I never planned on or wanted to get rid of the fisher as I loved it, but I certainly can't complain a bit about the replacement.  Also, I had been stuck with the same homeowners insurance company because I couldn't find another that would take me on with a non-UL approved stove.  

For my cabin, I'm still running the old school stoves and plan to keep it that way.  And for anyone else, if they are happy with what they have, and it is safe, stick with it.

My grandmother still likes to burn about a cord of wood per winter.  For her, no way in heck I'm taking the fisher out, she knows how to run it and there's no point in having her learn a new stove at this point.  Others like the older stoves because they are also better at using wood that is less than well seasoned.

pen


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## peakbagger (Oct 31, 2013)

My wood boiler was free for the taking, it may not be a gasifier but with storage I run it flat out so the efficiency is not bad. When some one offers me a good gasifier free fro the taking, I will consider replacing it but it would be hard to justify the cost of a new one.

 Many other folks run non EPA woodstoves as they will burn wet wood. Sure they take an efficiency hit but to some folks buying or cutting wood 1 to 2 years in advance just does not happen so the choice is less than ideal wood or no wood at all.


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## Motor7 (Oct 31, 2013)

I do agree with Valley, some of us non cat folks & non secondary folks should take a look at either adding secondaries or adding more secondaries. My H1 only has one mid mounted and I think it would be more efficient with two mounted high under the baffle. Tinkering with these older stoves is fun and I have read a few stories of moderate success with homemade secondary burn tubes.


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## oldspark (Oct 31, 2013)

Not sure how I missed this thread.
I loved my old Nashua, ran it for over 30 years when the house was not all that tight at times and it handled it well, very user friendly, load it and run the flue temp up to about 450 and reduce the air some and you could bank on the results.
What happened you ask, I joined Hearth.com thats what and was inundated with threads and posts about "smoke dragons" crappy stoves, getting more heat with less wood ect. and this was from some who were still crapping yellow when I started burning wood.
Smoke dragon means you are burning wet wood, many good older stoves out there, how you run your stove has a lot to do with its efficiency.
Its all good now, love the window on the Summit, had to tighten up the house to get it to heat the place but needed that any way.
Not sure how much less wood I burn do to the stove because of the new windows and some more insulation here and there, insulated window shades are next.
Nashua is headed for shop and might have it done this weekend, looking forward to running it after 3 years with the Summit, I will give an honest opinion of how it runs compared to the new stove.
Great question.


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## georgepds (Oct 31, 2013)

I posted to this thread earlier before I bought my new EPA stove, so this is a before/after post

I loved my old pre-EPA  Jotul Combifire .. but over the 30 years I used it, I think it warped some. The door never shut properly, and the fire burned hot. Towards the end, the door would sometimes pop open. I could keep it close by wrapping a chain around it.. but it had approached major kludge stage.. and its' time was up. 

I got a Woodstock progress hybrid, mostly on the recommendation of this forum. I had my heart set on a Vermont casting, and it was here I learned about troubles with the old Vt casting company. Like others, I'm a big fan of the Woodstock stove company, and am very pleased with the new stove. Before buying it, my wife and I visited the company, and she liked its looks. I did not want to dump $3k into something that would annoy her (we all learn something over time) , no matter how well it worked

Also I wanted something simple.. the electric goes out a lot in winter where I live (on a barrier island) .. and I did not want something that needed a blower to operate properly. 

One thing I notice is the heat up the chimney is much less with the woodstock PH, probably a reflection of greater transfer of heat to the room as opposed to the outside. The other thing I notice is it takes about an hour to heat up the room.. this could be due to the soapstone heat characteristics,,.. or to the controlled burn rates of EPA stoves. With the Jotul I could be warm and toasty in minutes. 

The other thing I notice, and this is a biggy, it stays warm in the house much longer. The old Jotul would cool down from its blast furnace stage pretty quickly.. For backup I have a propane wall heater with a fan that sounds like a 747 jet engine. Somewhere about 3am the wall heater would fire up at the 50F setpoint,  the fan would wake me, and half the dead in the graveyard two towns over. I'd get up, start another fire, and be good till 6am. With the woodstock.. it's toasty all night, and I never have to feed it at 3 am, or even 6am

Finally, for a given amount of heat, it uses much less wood. On a cold night I'd feed the Jotul 4 or 5 times.. I rarely feed the woodstock more than twice.. once to get started. and a few more splits for the overnight burn

I don't think I would have bought one 30 years ago, even if it had been available. First, I wouldn't spend the money on something I might not use, by now I'm pretty certain I like to heat with wood. Second, I did not have the money back then, I do now (time and fortune change for us all) 

But... if I knew back then how much better an EPA stove works (and the Woodstock PH was available) I might have bought one and saved myself  30 years of 3 am wakeup calls from the fan of DOOM


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## rowerwet (Oct 31, 2013)

last winter with lousy wood, I would load the Fisher for the night, when I got up the next morning it was still hot to the touch, piling more wood on the coals would bring the fire back on it's own. during the day my wife feeds it so I come home to a very hot house. 
as long as the wood is free, the stove stays


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## BrotherBart (Nov 1, 2013)

I remember back when I found this site and preached about how great my old stove was. It cracked that same year and that was the best thing that ever happened for heating this house. It went out and the new one came in and I don't have to c/s/s that extra three cords every year. A good thing for an old guy and the first year with the new stove my wife said "This joint has never been this warm."

Burn on in the old dogs folks. Sometimes I miss the old one. I cannot imagine why. Nostalgia from losing an old friend of 21 years I guess.


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## Dustin (Nov 3, 2013)

When I first moved out on my own, I was cold and couldn't afford the heating bill. So, I ran an old Kodak slammer insert. I loved the look, the heat, but I just couldn't heat the house with it.

Bought another house that had an arrow per EPA stove. I attempted to heat with it, using seasoned wood, and feeding the stove like mad.

I finally decided it was time to upgrade. Installed a quad 4100i, my wood consumption dropped, and I'm finally warm 

As a cost factor, if it would have heated this place I would never have spent the cash to upgrade


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## oldspark (Nov 3, 2013)

I'm guessing I made my mistake by not getting an exact measurement of the old stove's firebox and matching it with the EPA stove, in a open floor plan in a 2500 sq foot house smaller in not better.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 3, 2013)

The reason I am still running a smoke dragon is because I am poor, unfortunately  In my old farm house, the K-1 monitors were crushingly expensive to run... My friend gave me the Better 'N Ben stove out of his garage. I scrimped and saved to put in a new class A chimney, as my masonry chimney is unlined... never mind the chimney fires that have been in it... I have access to several hundred acres of woods, a chainsaw and a splitter.  ever since the smoke dragon has been installed, my house has been warm... and I am not spending $30+ a day on kerosene.

Do I want an EPA stove.... yep.  but some family court issues need to be attended to, and they will be shortly.  I would *love* to drop that smoke dragon off at the scrapyard.... and watch secondaries dance through mica glass.

all things in time.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 3, 2013)

You'll get there. For now just burn dry wood in the BnB, don't choke it down and keep that pipe clean.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 3, 2013)

NON EPA Stove are very good for quick heat.Probably better the EPA stoves. I have a few homemade ones, that no EPA stove could touch for quick intense heat output, like the 2 i made out of an old oil tanks. Talk about heat transfer from all those square FT of sheet metal. Either one would work well in a large enclosure heated part time. You can make these babies for just about nothin. Any time i find good furnace doors on scrapped coal stoves i think about where i can use them.


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## pen (Nov 3, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> NON EPA Stove are very good for quick heat.Probably better the EPA stoves.



And this is why the two stoves in my cabin are still pre-epa units.  For part time heat, only burning about a cord a winter out there, the upgrade wouldn't be much of a benefit.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 3, 2013)

That barrel stove in the basement in the eighties was a heat throwing monster.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 3, 2013)

pen said:


> And this is why the two stoves in my cabin are still pre-epa units.  For part time heat, only burning about a cord a winter out there, the upgrade wouldn't be much of a benefit.


Right,and quick heat in a cabin is possible with something very different and much cheaper to obtain than a  24/7 home heating EPA wood stove. No way would i think of dragging any of my EPA stoves into a large garage or work shop where i need quick heat on a part time basis. Not worried about burn time,and wood consumption. Just fast heat safely.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 3, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> That barrel stove in the basement in the eighties was a heat throwing monster.


I still have one of these (double stacked) and use it occasionally. Still thinking there must be a simple way to get some secondaries out of this concept.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 3, 2013)

My double barrel was great after I hauled it out to the pole barn, cut doors in both ends of the top barrel and put racks in the top and made a smoker out of it. You could probably smoke a whole Grizzly, back to the title, in the thing.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 3, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> My double barrel was great after I hauled it out to the pole barn, cut doors in both ends of the top barrel and put racks in the top and made a smoker out of it. You could probably smoke a whole Grizzly, back to the title, in the thing.


I guess "smoking meat" could be considered as getting a secondary benefit out of your burning wood. Instead of more "heat" you get more "meat".


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## BrotherBart (Nov 3, 2013)

I still can't believe I actually burned that thing in a brand new house.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 3, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> You'll get there. For now just burn dry wood in the BnB, don't choke it down and keep that pipe clean.



I don't choke it down... I control heat by fuel load and the exhaust damper... I generally only start closing the air once the stack gets past 450... or it becomes stifling in my house...


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## Bret Chase (Nov 3, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> My double barrel was great after I hauled it out to the pole barn, cut doors in both ends of the top barrel and put racks in the top and made a smoker out of it. You could probably smoke a whole Grizzly, back to the title, in the thing.



I've got a 275 oil tank that I'm going to turn into a smoker... just haven't had the elusive confluence of time and money to tackle that project.... yet


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## oldspark (Nov 3, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> I don't choke it down... I control heat by fuel load and the exhaust damper... I generally only start closing the air once the stack gets past 450... or it becomes stifling in my house...


 Perfect, some of the older stoves worked well, they were not all junk like some would have you believe.


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## Bret Chase (Nov 3, 2013)

oldspark said:


> Perfect, some of the older stoves worked well, they were not all junk like some would have you believe.



My BnB I would classify as working... ok... it does what I need it to do.  I can see several design issues that could be easily worked out... but in the long run, I'd rather just replace it with a stove that someone else has spent the R&D money on....


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## BrotherBart (Nov 3, 2013)

Nashua was king. All hail Nashua. I cringe every time somebody signs up and says "I just replaced my Nashua stove with a new EPA stove.". I know what is coming. For months.  In one guy's case, uh hum, for years. 

ATTN Nashua owners: Keep it. Love it. Don't change a thing. Burn on.


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## oldspark (Nov 3, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Nashua was king. All hail Nashua. I cringe every time somebody signs up and says "I just replaced my Nashua stove with a new EPA stove.". I know what is coming. For months.  In one guy's case, uh hum, for years.
> 
> ATTN Nashua owners: Keep it. Love it. Don't change a thing. Burn on.


 Once again you seem to have a bug up your butt, seasoned oak touched on why my old stove worked well for me, quick heat, the way the house is built the cement gives up heat back in the house over night and quick heat in the morning brought the temp up quickly. Plus I bought a smaller stove which was not a good idea, is their a bigger stove then the summit that takes a 6 inch flue, if I could sell my stove and get a bigger one I would.
The Nashua was a big hunk of steel nothing more, had a baffle so a little better them some and built like a tank.
Never said it was better then the new stoves, I said it worked better in my situation.


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## oldspark (Nov 3, 2013)

I will refrain from posting if it bothers you that bad.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 3, 2013)

Born with a bug up my butt.  I am a hard headed old man. You can relate.

But for seven years Nashua owners have always been the ones that stopped in to crap on their new EPA stoves. If they like'em, keep'em. No knock against the stoves. If it works don't fix it.

FYI: If my old pre-EPA insert hadn't cracked I would probably be still burning in it instead of the new, in 2006, stove. But I am so happy it cracked now.


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## oldspark (Nov 4, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Born with a bug up my butt.  I am a hard headed old man. You can relate.
> 
> But for seven years Nashua owners have always been the ones that stopped in to crap on their new EPA stoves. If they like'em, keep'em. No knock against the stoves. If it works don't fix it.
> 
> FYI: If my old pre-EPA insert hadn't cracked I would probably be still burning in it instead of the new, in 2006, stove. But I am so happy it cracked now.


 
Ok I am going to answer this and I am done with it.
I gave my expeirence with my new stove vs the old one, I dont remember crapping on the EPA stoves (dont understand that, both you and BG seem to have a hang up)

I bought a smaller stove which was not a good idea and stated that, should have went with a 4 CF firebox so apples to apples.

The Nashua is in the shop and might have the first fire toninght and planned on giving a real world comparison now that I have burnt the summit for 3 years but screw that, unless I totaly bash it you will acuse me of worshiping the God of Nashua.

Please see a doctor about that bug.


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## Frank625 (Nov 7, 2013)

I like my stove because it works great for what I need it for. I like to walk around in shorts and a tee shirt no matter how cold it gets outside. It heats my entire 1250 sq/ft home. I can get 12 hour burns and I don't have to worry about the exact amount of moisture that is in my wood. I can burn rounds in it as well. I don't have a moisture meter or an IR temp probe. No expensive glass door either. I can put my hand on the wall near the flue and I know if it's burning right. It's a tool and it works just fine. I saved enough money on my electric bill, the first month I payed for my entire stove investment. I cut wood on my own property. If I had to buy wood I probably wood find an alternative. I have been running stoves, fireplaces and cutting wood since I was a kid. EPA stoves are great if you want one. I guess I didn't know I needed one. Then again,I didn't know you were supposed to have a tattoo to ride a Harley,and I learned to ride a motorcycle on a custom chopper 33 years ago at the age of 16. I owned and operated a custom motorcycle shop for 6 years. I currently ride a Harley Street Glide, I guess I better get with it and get an EPA wood stove and a tattoo......what will my peers think........lol.


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## Bone1099 (Nov 8, 2013)

Wood man wood!  I love to cut firewood.  I have a buddy with an Englander NC-30 and he cant burn half the wood i can with the big Fish insert.  We cut firewood together have a dang good time doing it and i can burn twice as much wood as he can.  Ok OK kidding.  In reality the wife says if i redo the hearth the rest of the kitchen/dining room must be done as well and no new stove until it is all finished.  Therefore im still burning the big Fish.  Good news for the environment.  With dry wood you cant restrict enough air to make it smoke much unless you really try but then the house gets cold and she really doesnt like that.  When it gets cold i really have to open her up and throw plenty of wood throughout the night to keep warm.  he he he.  And with that kind of use i rarely see smoke unless its just after reload.  he he he.  sorry i couldnt help myself .


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## Bone1099 (Nov 8, 2013)

Frank is awesome


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## oldspark (Nov 8, 2013)

Since I put my old stove in the shop I have had a couple of fires, the first one was a small one and did not get the flue temp much over 250 and it smoked all the time.
Next fire was a bigger one and the flue temp reached about 450, at some point in time (guessing around 350) it stoped smoking and did not smoke the rest of the burn.
Glad to hear some observed the same lack of smoke from a "smoke dragon".
I do burn the same dry wood as my epa stove, I wont burn wet wood not even in a camp fire.


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## bsruther (Nov 8, 2013)

I'll be buying an EPA stove before the winter's over, but with much apprehension. 
I've been tweaking my Buck stove for seven years and my wood dryness has gotten much better also.
I'm at the point now where I can load it at 10 pm and have hot coals at 6:30.
When I light the stove, I open the air all the way, wait about 20 mins, close the air down most of the way and
it's good to go and my chimney is only 13 ft. No diddling with anything or opening doors
When it's choked I get smoke, but not that much, not nearly as much as the stationary steam locomotives I see in the area. 

Oh yeah, one more thing, my stove's about 30 years old.I've changed the fan motor once and the gaskets last about 3 years. Will I get 30 years out of my EPA stove?

It will be great if the EPA stove lives up to the hype and I'd love to be using a third less wood, but I'm not counting on either of those things. If it's all true, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.


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## WASPKFD (Nov 8, 2013)

bsruther said:


> I'll be buying an EPA stove before the winter's over, but with much apprehension.
> I've been tweaking my Buck stove for seven years and my wood dryness has gotten much better also.
> I'm at the point now where I can load it at 10 pm and have hot coals at 6:30.
> When I light the stove, I open the air all the way, wait about 20 mins, close the air down most of the way and
> ...


 

AWESOME another buck owner! Im a new /old buck owner BUCK 2800 and ready to feed the fire CHEERS!


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## Baker_Falcon (Nov 11, 2013)

To answer your question:

I use a pre-EPA stove because it was there when I bought the house and it is my first winter and I want to determine if it is worth the time and energy to burn wood.  New to wood stoves but not new to wood burning.  I am somewhat of a frugal person so I decided to give it a try instead of rolling over and forking over $2,500 this winter to the local fuel oil company. Had a certified pro come out and check everything to make sure I am safe and the terra cotta chimney was in good shape and clean (yes it is a slammer install).  Stove is in great shape.  Got a custom cap put on the chimney.  Bought some quality wood from a guy that has been selling my family wood for years (yes it is seasoned, no I didn't need a moisture meter to determine that).  It was in the high 20s low 30s at night this weekend and 85-90 degrees in my living room and 73 in my bedrooms in a 1,200 sq foot brick ranch with a fan pointed from the bedrooms towards the stove.  Stove door temp around 350-400 degrees.  EPA or no EPA, to me it works great.  Burn hot fires, watch the temps, use good quality wood. I also come from the school of "don't fix it if it isn't broken". 

If things go well this year I will *consider* an upgrade to a newer smaller stove next year with a liner, etc... (so far leaning towards the regency) . However unlikely, I might change my tune sooner if there are flames shooting out of my chimney.  This stove I have now might be a bit too big for my house.  I also like the idea of burning less wood in a newer stove. The old one shouldn't be a hard sell in my area.  Taking that beast out the door, now that might be difficult.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 11, 2013)

I use 4 EPA stoves and 4 NON EPA Stoves.(In different locations of course) Only 1 of the NON epa stoves is factory made. That would be the Longwood,so named as you can put  a 5' piece of wood in there. Made from a SS tube about the size of a 30 gallon water heater. The rest are self made, 2 from oil tanks and 1 barrel stove and all work very well for their application. In general i use the NON epa stoves for quick heat in larger rooms and areas,and the EPA  Stoves for the Long Burns in smaller insulated spaces. They all work well.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 11, 2013)

Can you imaging the heat coming off the sides and top of a 275 gallon oil tank stove,awesome! Need three box fans to keep it from overheating.


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## Saltylady (Nov 12, 2013)

I really did not research to see what the difference was in wood stoves - just knew that this one was 350 and within our budget.  1980's ish Kodiak double door wood stove that the original owners sold due to chimney issues and could no longer burn.  Our house is rented so it may end up staying after we leave in a couple years.  We plan on building on our farm and would buy a new stove.  Also we are installing thru wall chimney system and that is costing some $$$$.  Our house is a very old very large farm house with newer windows, however, leaks just as an old farm house would.  This will help our heating cost since fuel oil for hot water baseboard is pricey.  Plus my husband's business is landscape management which includes tree removal so we have all the wood we needas well as the wood we take from our farm.


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