# Burn Pot Pile Up?



## BillM2 (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm new to pellet stoves and am wondering if, in the burn pot, should I be seeing mostly ash only or a build up of slag-like material? Sometimes it seems like there's a lot of non ash visible and it happens after around 14 hours of operation? My settings are 4-3-1 and the top are either 3 or 4 with one above for the blower.


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## HEMI (Jan 13, 2011)

you should state what kind of stove you have and the venting setup


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## Heaterhunter (Jan 13, 2011)

What type of pellets are you using?


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## BillM2 (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm using a Englander 25 PDVC and Hamer's Hot Ones (all oak). Exterior, thru the wall, 3" inch with one tee and one elbow to the vent rising 8' or so. Also have OAK installed.


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## tsmith (Jan 13, 2011)

I am burning Hamers in my Quad AE this year and am also having problems with huge clinker formations in the burn pot. Try a different pellet and see if it changes, I believe from what I am hearing on here about htis problem, hamer had a bad batch of pellets this year.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 13, 2011)

Clinkers are a PITA, if you have full control of both your feed rate and air.  You can deal with this if not you have to just clean out the clinkers periodically.

That stove has a bit of adjustment available. 

More air will eject more of the ash.

Less fuel will create less ash.

The goal is to have enough air to eject almost all of the created ash.

Yes this fouls up the usual burn pattern for your stove.

or

Burn a pellet that produces less ash or lighter ash.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 14, 2011)

BillM2 said:
			
		

> I'm using a Englander 25 PDVC and Hamer's Hot Ones (all oak). Exterior, thru the wall, 3" inch with one tee and one elbow to the vent rising 8' or so. Also have OAK installed.



You might want to check that venting you have there against what England says is the maximum for 3" pipe.

The tee and I'm assuming 90 degree elbow is an EVL of 10, the 8 foot rise is an EVL of 4 totaling 14 now,  if you have 2 feet of horizontal to get outside with you have an EVL of 16.

But that aside, bad gaskets, and/or  a dirty stove and/or vent system and/or vent system out of specifications can make a mess of the critical air flow need to help keep the burn pot area clean of ash.


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## BillM2 (Jan 14, 2011)

I think your EVL calculation is about right -- but what the heck is EVL and how does it impact my set-up? This is a brand new unit, about 3 weeks old and is cleaned daily.


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## imacman (Jan 14, 2011)

Bill, first of all, you don't have enough air for the stove to burn w/o clinkers forming.  Try 4-5-1, or 4-6-1.

As for EVL, it stands for Equivalent Vent Length.  Most stove manufacturers recommend switching to 4" pipe if the EVL goes much past 15, or if you're at high altitude.

1' vertical pipe = evl of .5
1' of horiz. pipe = "   "   1
90 degree elbow or cleanout T = 5
45     "         "     = 2.5


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## BillM2 (Jan 14, 2011)

This may or may not be related, but I'm still getting the vibration or rumble, gusty winds or not. Seems if there's a hot, high fire, it'll rumble more. But it will also do it at low heat and low fan speeds. Would the EVL calculation of 16 be part of the problem for both these ongoing issues? I suppose I could lose a foot or so off the vertical rise. I'm getting good heat otherwise. Here's a diagram (dashes equal 1'length):  STOVE - - T - - - - - - - - Elbow (90), cap. I've noticed the glass gets dirty within four hours of operating. 

I'll also try the settings suggested and see if there's an improvement.

Thanks!


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## Pgoodii (Jan 14, 2011)

The comment on hammers would make sense the hammers I bought during the summer I was fine, but when I started on the ton I bought in December is when I started having large clinker formations. I posted on here and someone suggested opening the draft on my stove and running a wire up the ash traps, I have done both and it helped but I am still getting some build up in the burn pot after about 24 hours.  I may pick up some stove chow at lowes and just see if there is a difference. I will let you guys know if it does.


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## imacman (Jan 14, 2011)

Bill,

Mike Holton from Englander had a post a while back about the rumbling....don't know if you saw it.

He found that if you remove the OAK from the back of the stove, and cover about 1/4 to 1/3 of the intake w/ foil tape, it helps.

Take a look at post #6 by Mike in this thread.....it might help:

www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/66782/#763148


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## BillM2 (Jan 14, 2011)

Yes, that's on the list to try. Mike's suggestion sounds, sound. Will post my results once determined. 

We're looking at single digit temps tonight with light NW wind. So far, so good. Downstairs where the stove is located it's 70 degrees, upstairs 67. Not too shabby (accept for those pesty clinkers and rumbling ghosts)!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 14, 2011)

Would taking four feet out of your vertical cause a problem with where the termination would fall?

And by any chance are you venting into the prevailing wind where you are?

Could you post a picture of the outside venting.


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## Heaterhunter (Jan 14, 2011)

imacman said:
			
		

> Bill,
> 
> Mike Holton from Englander had a post a while back about the rumbling....don't know if you saw it.
> 
> ...



+1.  I removed the OAK from my stove 4 years ago, didn't cover the intake with any tape, just left it wide open and the stove has been running much better since as long as I'm burning good pellets.  I've been told you need to be carful with this in a new tight-built house.  My stove is in the basement and their are too many places to get air down their!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 14, 2011)

Heaterhunter said:
			
		

> imacman said:
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You might want to check your manual Heaterhunter, it is likely an OAK is mandatory for your stove.


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## Heaterhunter (Jan 14, 2011)

Won't that reduce the combustion air into the stove?  If burn pot build up is the issue wouldn't it make sense to maximize combustion air to clear ash more effectively?  Please upgrade me if my thought process is wrong, it wouldn't be the first time %-P


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## BillM2 (Jan 14, 2011)

Issue #1 -- Rumble: I spoke with Mike at Englander about the rumble and it's pretty certain the cause is how much air is being taken in. So, I've covered the air intake with foil heat tape, and it does have an effect. I do need to, however, cover more than the suggested 1/3 to 1/4 amount. It's more like half.  I'll give it some time and report back whether or not this solved the problem. Mike mentioned if the glass got dark and sooty, then to open up the intake. It may take some time to find the "sweet spot" this unit likes. I may rig up a shutter to adjust intake air according to my heat settings, which I understand can impact the amount and frequency of this rumble.

Mike doesn't think the 8' rise or my EVL has any impact on the rumble. 

Issue#2 -- Clinkers: By raising the LBA a notch to 4 or 5, clinker formation with the Hamer's (all oak) is less pronounced. 

This morning the temp was -2 at 6am -- we had clear skies overhead in this part of the state. I had the stove set at 3 and 5 overnight (ate a lot of pellets) and the house stayed in the mid 60s pretty much. My furnace did kick on a bit which I expected -- we live in a 100 year old house with lots of windows and not enough insulation. Temp at this writing climbing, now 9 degrees, and stove alone at 5 and 6 keeping the downstairs at 68. There's a slight breeze. Given it's some 60 degrees colder outdoors, not too bad.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 14, 2011)

This may surprise you BillM2, but my suggestion on the venting was not directed at curing the rumble, but the entire burn issue, and it just might calm that rumble as well as the stoves ability to move air through the system will definitely be changed.


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## BillM2 (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks Smokey -- yes, I understood. I included the venting aspect as a possible factor for rumbling. I'm now into an hour or so of restricting the intake and with a higher air number, and the rumbling is less frequent and intense and the burn pot appears to be burning better with less build-up of a clinker pile.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 14, 2011)

Heaterhunter said:
			
		

> Won't that reduce the combustion air into the stove?  If burn pot build up is the issue wouldn't it make sense to maximize combustion air to clear ash more effectively?  Please upgrade me if my thought process is wrong, it wouldn't be the first time %-P



Yes it will impact the combustion air the stove has access to, however it is likely there is more air than the stove actually needs even at the increased LBA settings.

What it effectively does is change the resonant frequencies of the air column and the entire vent system.

Sort of like tuning a pipe organ.


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## antmorin (Jan 14, 2011)

Same problem. I have an Englander PDV. Bought it used last year.  Worked great last year feeder rate 4 air blower 5 nice and toasty.  This year if I put the feeder rate to 4 the pellets just pile up in the burn pot some turn black and then fall into the ash pan I have to remove them every couple of hours when I'm home.  I have put the feeder rate to 3 and still have to clear out the pot every 4 to 5 hours. I've kept it very clean, I clean out the burn pot and ash collection area every 5 bags.  Cleaned out the vents twice in the last 2 weeks and I'm positive its clean from outside to the combustion blower I can see everything is spotless.   It is in the basement and I do not have the air intake hooked up to the outside.  I remove the impingement plate and clean behind there.  Same venting as last year.  Burning Barefoots.  The manual doesn't help on where to clean.

From everything I've read here it seems that I have an air flow problem but I can't find where.

I think that there may be a hidden area that I don't know about to clean out it seems to be getting worse.  Does anyone know?

Maybe the air combustion motor?  How do I tell if it's slowing down?

I don't think there is an air intake adjustment?


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## forya (Jan 15, 2011)

I am getting the same problem with Hamers and my Harman accentra.  I was thinking of calling my dealer out to adjust my combustion fan speed as there is no way to do this manually.  but maybe I will just try to keep up with pulling down the ash by hand. The heat is great with these pellets.  I do notice that when I wake up that there are a lot of half burnt pellets that overflow the giant ash clump wall that forms from 8 straight hours of burn.


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## buildingmaint (Jan 15, 2011)

My Hammers are from Agway and I 'm having the same problem , have to dig a chunk out of my stove 4-6 times a day. First ton was fine but the last two tons have been clinker city.


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## imacman (Jan 15, 2011)

burnit said:
			
		

> .....Worked great last year .....This year if I put the feeder rate to 4 the pellets just pile up in the burn pot .......From everything I've read here it seems that I have an air flow problem but I can't find where........Maybe the air combustion motor?.......



Yes, there is an airflow problem, especially since you say the stove ran great last year.  This is a new year, and more ash has built-up.

The combustion blower should be removed and cleaned, AT LEAST after each heating season, and for sure after about 2 tons. NOTE:   GET REPLACEMENT GASKET BEFORE DOING THIS 

There is an access panel on the left side of the stove (facing it).  Unplug stove, remove plate, disconnect motor power wires, remove 6 nuts holding the motor to the plenum box.  Remove motor & clean fan blades with wire brush, and scraper/putty knife under the vanes on the motor body.

Then, clean/vacuum inside the plenum....re-assemble motor w/ new gasket.

This is what my comb. blower and plenum box looked like after 58 bags:


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## BillM2 (Jan 15, 2011)

<Update>

OK, after about 24 hours with the air intake closed off about 1/2 and with the OAK reconnected, the rumble happens now very rarely. When it does, it's much more subdued and more brief. As far as the glass goes, there seems to be soot forming, about 20% more. It's also black than the brown stuff. I cleaned the unit out yesterday at 4pm and this morning, I though I could see the flame, a portion (less than half) of the glass was covered. I may adjust the air intake blower a bit and see if that helps.

Clinker formation is about the same, so perhaps the pile up is due to this batch of Hamer's. They certainly burn hot, but leave a good size clinker pile after 12 hours of operation.

It was -5 degrees this morning around 7am. Clear skies overhead and our low, valley location the culprit. My oil buner was engaged last night around midnight for about 45 minutes so not to freeze my baseboard and domestic water pipes. Yesterday's low temps caused my dishwasher's waste line to freeze -- a bit of a headscratcher initially since it was mid-afternoon and plenty warm in the house. But all's good -- for now!


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## antmorin (Jan 15, 2011)

imacman I did pull out the combustion blower before the season started and cleaned it all out and put in a new gasket thanks for your response.   Anything else?
Seems like when the pot gets filled up air is being pulled from the auger tube. Anyone replace the gasket on the auger motors?  I replaced the hopper gasket and made sure it closes tight also checked for any openings in the hopper none.
Buildingmaint  Hammers from Agway and TSC are different than Hammers Hot Ones, same company different product.  Unless they do say Hot Ones on the bag.


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## imacman (Jan 15, 2011)

BillM2 said:
			
		

> .....My oil buner was engaged last night around midnight for about 45 minutes so not to freeze my baseboard and domestic water pipes......



Bill, you might want to consider a ThermGuard.  Lot of forum members have gotten them (including me) to eliminate the frozen pipe problem while using pellet stove to heat house.  

www.bearmountaindesign.com


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 15, 2011)

burnit said:
			
		

> imacman I did pull out the combustion blower before the season started and cleaned it all out and put in a new gasket thanks for your response.   Anything else?
> Seems like when the pot gets filled up air is being pulled from the auger tube. Anyone replace the gasket on the auger motors?  I replaced the hopper gasket and made sure it closes tight also checked for any openings in the hopper none.
> Buildingmaint  Hammers from Agway and TSC are different than Hammers Hot Ones, same company different product.  Unless they do say Hot Ones on the bag.



Fine it is wonderful that you pulled and cleaned the combustion prior to the start of the season, now did you also clean out the rest of the venting and stove, how many bags of pellets have you burned since then?


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## nannyscriv (Jan 16, 2011)

Pgoodii said:
			
		

> The comment on hammers would make sense the hammers I bought during the summer I was fine, but when I started on the ton I bought in December is when I started having large clinker formations. I posted on here and someone suggested opening the draft on my stove and running a wire up the ash traps, I have done both and it helped but I am still getting some build up in the burn pot after about 24 hours.  I may pick up some stove chow at lowes and just see if there is a difference. I will let you guys know if it does.


We just got done burning a ton of hammers...they were awful...it was a very long ton to burn...a lot of clinkers cause we just couldnt get enough air going through the burn pot to get them to burn right...always backed up...YES great heat..when they burned...Yes NOT a lot of ash...when they burned right...but it seemed 1 bag good 3 bags crap 2 good 4 crap...we will be going to a different brand ASAP...about to try maine's choice and lignetics ...we shall see!  We have a very clean (and was happy LOL!) Avalon Astoria..we love it!


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## BillM2 (Jan 16, 2011)

imacman said:
			
		

> BillM2 said:
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Thanks, I might get one of these. Yesterday morning's headache (-5 degrees -- a big surprise) was my cold water domestic supply line froze in our second floor bathroom. That water line goes up from the unheated basement (I do get heat when the furnace is running) through a chase on a north facing exterior wall. Normally, when the boiler is on, there's a baseboard return in the chase which comes in close contact with both domestic water lines, and the heat keeps those pipes from freezing. I failed to keep a water drip in the cold line, thus the freeze up (the hot was dripping because it's on the list and thankfully hadn't got to it yet). I thought I'd have to tear into the chase to inspect, etc but thanks to a friend's suggestion, bought a $12 water pressure gauge, attached it to the washer supply line, and there was not a pressure drop. Whew! Last night wasn't nearly as cold, but kept a water drip going and set the boiler's t-stat to click on at 64 degrees. No problems. But, the day is young. Tonight's supposed to be the coldest to date a forecast low of - 7 degrees with a light westerly. I'm armed with a oil filled electric space heater for the crawl space, just in case, and some drippy faucets for the other end of this ol' house. Just a note: when renovating a house when it's 90 degrees in the shade, think ahead and use extra insulation in your projects.....


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## antmorin (Jan 16, 2011)

Smokey I have cleaned the vent twice in the last 2 weeks and had it completely apart clean as a whistle from the cap to the combustion motor.  Last night I decided to use my shop vac to force air into the intake to try to clean out some of the ashes in the burn pot without turning the stove off.  When I did that smoke came pouring out of the top auger, at first I thought I blew it up, but then realized by doing what I just did I found an air leak.  I will be ordering the auger gaskets from Englander and will replace as soon as I get it.  This is why it looks like air is coming from the auger tube when the pot fills up, it is easier for the air to come in from the tube.
Will let you know what happens after I replaced the gasket.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 16, 2011)

Nothing quite like an air leak to make a mess of a burn.


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## antmorin (Jan 22, 2011)

I have replaced the gasket but still have the same problem so after looking at it more carefully I see that the smoke is coming through the bearing.  I have the auger block bearing on order and should get it on Tues.  I assume that these are supposed to be air tight?  I see many people here complaining about their pdv pdvc or their equivalents having similar problems, check for air leaks in your hopper or auger gaskets or auger block bearings, especially if it looks like your fire is being fed by air being pulled down the auger tube.

I know what the feed rate setting and blower setting are but what are the "bottom 3 settings" that I've seen people talk about here.  How do I adjust them?  How do they work?


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## imacman (Jan 22, 2011)

burnit said:
			
		

> ....I know what the feed rate setting and blower setting are but what are the "bottom 3 settings" that I've seen people talk about here.  How do I adjust them?  How do they work?



You asked this in another thread, and I answered it....see post #32 here:

www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/65830/P22/#794084


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## antmorin (Jan 27, 2011)

I have replaced the auger bearing block and have a much better fire and hardly and clinkers now.  I am getting a little more heat out of it but nothing like last year.  I have played with the 2 bottom left settings with no change, I have checked and it is set on mode *c*.  I will be giving it a good cleaning tonight to see if I can get some more heat out of it.


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