# Ideas for replacement of my Outdoor Wood boiler.



## dlabrie (Feb 23, 2016)

I have a 10+ yr old CB outdoor wood boiler that I want/need to replace. I burn anywhere from 9-12 full cords of hardwood a year to heat my 2700sq house (FHW) and DHW. I have been cutting the hardwood from my property for the last 30 years and it is getting thin and I am getting old 

I have been researching and have been impressed by the new wood gasification units out there but the prices are high. A garn is 10-12K and an Econoburn around 10K, and then there is the thermal storage tank to consider. I have all of the plumbing in place and am wondering what other options I may have to replace the boiler. I have seen some other units,  like the EKO and Biomas, that were more in my price range, 5-7K, but they look like indoor units.

My OWB is about 80’ from the house and sits about 5’ from a garage. There is an insulated loop from my system to the garage where I had wanted to install a Modine heater but never got around to it.

I have also been looking at pellet boilers, but with the price of oil so low, that is a hard sell.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Thanks,

David


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## leon (Feb 23, 2016)

dlabrie said:


> I have a 10+ yr old CB outdoor wood boiler that I want/need to replace. I burn anywhere from 9-12 full cords of hardwood a year to heat my 2700sq house (FHW) and DHW. I have been cutting the hardwood from my property for the last 30 years and it is getting thin and I am getting old
> 
> I have been researching and have been impressed by the new wood gasification units out there but the prices are high. A garn is 10-12K and an Econoburn around 10K, and then there is the thermal storage tank to consider. I have all of the plumbing in place and am wondering what other options I may have to replace the boiler. I have seen some other units,  like the EKO and Biomas, that were more in my price range, 5-7K, but they look like indoor units.
> 
> ...






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I realize this is a wood burning forum but you can purchase a coal stoker boiler 
for about half that amount of money and put it in the garage if there is room.

The Leisure Line folks have been trying to sell an outdoor coal boiler for hydronic heating 
and have been looking to find a willing customer to run one for them.

Your reasoning is 99 percent of why I have a coal stoker boiler now.

The Portage and Main folks have an outdoor coal stoker but it has a very small hopper and the 
last time I checked which was several years ago it was 17K Plus


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 23, 2016)

If you still want to burn wood, Econoburn and others make decent outdoor gasifiers.  they're not cheap, but you will truly get what you pay for. 
I sell and have been happy with the Heatmaster G-series.  I'm sure there is a dealer not too far from you.


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## dlabrie (Feb 23, 2016)

leon said:


> ============================================================================================
> 
> 
> I realize this is a wood burning forum but you can purchase a coal stoker boiler
> ...



I don't even know if you can buy coal in NH.  I'll have to look into that. Thanks


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## dlabrie (Feb 23, 2016)

Karl_northwind said:


> If you still want to burn wood, Econoburn and others make decent outdoor gasifiers.  they're not cheap, but you will truly get what you pay for.
> I sell and have been happy with the Heatmaster G-series.  I'm sure there is a dealer not too far from you.


I contacted Econoburn and they sent this quote for a unit, *EBW200-170  $10,995 - $500 Instant Rebate  =  $10,495.00*
10K is too much for me, especially when you have to figure in fittings, shipping and a water storage system.


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## maple1 (Feb 23, 2016)

I don't think that Econoburn 'needs' storage?


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## adkhunter (Feb 23, 2016)

Coal is awesome if you have it locally available cheaply and if your tired of dealing with wood. Coal boilers have been around a long time and are very simple in design and reliable.  I heated a 2000sq ft house with just a small Alaska coal stove. No duct work or any other heat source and that little stove with its little blower heated the entire downstairs and upstairs. Used about 3 tons from October to April in upstate NY winters. 

Coal storage is also much easier. It can sit outside in a big pile in all weather conditions and still burn. It is best to keep it in a bin of some sort and to keep it dry only to keep it from freezing together in clumps. Not a big deal as it breaks apart pretty easy but it's still something note worthy. 

I just bought a new house that has a old oil boiler that's sucking down fuel oil like crazy. Even with this very warm winter we are having. So I too am am looking into a new boiler system for next winter. Trying to decide between coal again or a corn boiler. Coal I'm familiar with and I know it's ups and downs. Corn will be a new adventure but I have access to unlimited amounts of dry corn from work so they availability of free fuel is beyond tempting. 

Hope I helped in some way!


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## dlabrie (Feb 23, 2016)

maple1 said:


> I don't think that Econoburn 'needs' storage?


I think you are right. But from what I've read a heat storage tank is recommended to get the highest efficiency.


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## dlabrie (Feb 23, 2016)

adkhunter said:


> Coal is awesome if you have it locally available cheaply and if your tired of dealing with wood. Coal boilers have been around a long time and are very simple in design and reliable.  I heated a 2000sq ft house with just a small Alaska coal stove. No duct work or any other heat source and that little stove with its little blower heated the entire downstairs and upstairs. Used about 3 tons from October to April in upstate NY winters.
> 
> Coal storage is also much easier. It can sit outside in a big pile in all weather conditions and still burn. It is best to keep it in a bin of some sort and to keep it dry only to keep it from freezing together in clumps. Not a big deal as it breaks apart pretty easy but it's still something note worthy.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I will look into it. I had never considered  it before; food for thought...


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## goosegunner (Feb 23, 2016)

Not really sure how well storage would work with a Outside gasifier. Seems to me you would be starting with a very cold boiler after being off for 24hrs or so. Plus you will be starting fires outside instead of in a building.

I start 1 to 2 fires per day depending on outside temp. It is very simple but my boiler is in a 12'X16' insulated building with fluorescent lights. Might not be too much fun outside in the wind and snow.

gg


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## Fred61 (Feb 24, 2016)

How much coal does your woodlot produce?


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 24, 2016)

the G-series doesn't need storage, but can be used with it.  It would be just about a drop in replacement for your current boiler.  one of the reasons I really like them.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Feb 24, 2016)

I have a g200 heatmaster. I went from a hardy h4. Huge difference in wood usage. Very easy to use. I would have a efm  or keystoker coal boiler if I didn't get such a good deal on my hardy years ago. I too live in nh, coal is readily available. Best option is bulk delivery straight from Pennsylvania. 22 tons for around 200 per ton I believe. It doesn't take up as much room as it sounds. 30 million btus per ton, never goes bad. My buddy has a keystoker kaa4. Loads the hopper once every few days, dumps ashes every other day. Works flawless. He goes through about 5 tons per year heating a 3000 sqft old home.


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## maple1 (Feb 24, 2016)

Just from feedback I have read of others with them - I would definitely at least check out a G-series in this situation.

Another option to consider would be an indoor gasifier/boiler, in an outbuilding. That would most likely need storage, or at least it would be highly recommended, depending on the particular boiler. If you have an outbuilding now that could use standby heat and is big enough, or could make use of or justify a new one (maybe a nice new heated shop?), that could be the way to go. Storage could go in there too (along with the winters wood), or in the house/basement.

So mostly comes down to your particular situation & preferences.


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## dlabrie (Feb 24, 2016)

Fred61 said:


> How much coal does your woodlot produce?


Quite a lot with my old CB boiler


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## dlabrie (Feb 24, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Just from feedback I have read of others with them - I would definitely at least check out a G-series in this situation.
> 
> Another option to consider would be an indoor gasifier/boiler, in an outbuilding. That would most likely need storage, or at least it would be highly recommended, depending on the particular boiler. If you have an outbuilding now that could use standby heat and is big enough, or could make use of or justify a new one (maybe a nice new heated shop?), that could be the way to go. Storage could go in there too (along with the winters wood), or in the house/basement.
> 
> So mostly comes down to your particular situation & preferences.



Here is a picture of my current *CB *boiler setup. There is a 9 cord lean-to off the back of the garage. Maybe I could use a corner of the garage to house an indoor boiler.












Central Boiler and wood shed



__ dlabrie
__ Feb 24, 2016


















Central Boiler by garage



__ dlabrie
__ Feb 24, 2016


















Central Boiler by garage 2



__ dlabrie
__ Feb 24, 2016


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## StihlKicking (Feb 24, 2016)

Look at the Hardy KB units. They run 7-8k.


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## dlabrie (Feb 24, 2016)

The lines running to and from my OWB are 1" PEX. Looking at the EKO and the Biomass, the feed and return outlets are 2" . Would that be an issue?


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## goosegunner (Feb 24, 2016)

dlabrie said:


> The lines running to and from my OWB are 1" PEX. Looking at the EKO and the Biomass, the feed and return outlets are 2" . Would that be an issue?



Most use large piping at boiler to storage to move the output of the boiler to storage. Use the 1" to your loads from storage and it will function as it has up to this point.


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## dlabrie (Feb 24, 2016)

What if I built an insulated room the back corner of my garage and put in something like an EKO  or Biomass with 500 gallons of insulated storage then ran my existing PEX lines to the storage? I could have a door in back right into my wood shed.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 24, 2016)

dlabrie said:


> What if I built an insulated room the back corner of my garage and put in something like an EKO  or Biomass with 500 gallons of insulated storage then ran my existing PEX lines to the storage? I could have a door in back right into my wood shed.


As long as you understood what you were getting into you will be extremely happy with a good indoor boiler tied to storage. I am no expert but my understanding is that the new Outdoor boilers are a lot fussier than the old ones. Not suggesting that is bad, just that my understanding is that they are quite different (i.e. can't throw just anything in there, moisture content, size, etc.). I could be wrong on this, I never did research it much as my property and the EPA regs didn't allow for OWB so I went indoor.


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## jrod770 (Feb 24, 2016)

JohnDolz said:


> As long as you understood what you were getting into you will be extremely happy with a good indoor boiler tied to storage. I am no expert but my understanding is that the new Outdoor boilers are a lot fussier than the old ones. Not suggesting that is bad, just that my understanding is that they are quite different (i.e. can't throw just anything in there, moisture content, size, etc.). I could be wrong on this, I never did research it much as my property and the EPA regs didn't allow for OWB so I went indoor.



Nothing fussy about the new units.  I installed a Hardy KB 125 outdoor gassifier last summer, no problems at all.  The key, as with any gasser, is dry wood.  It's pretty simple load and go.  Clean ashes every couple of days and clean tubes once every other week.  Much better than the indoor wood burning furnace I previously had, and MUCH less wood.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 24, 2016)

jrod770 said:


> Nothing fussy about the new units.  I installed a Hardy KB 125 outdoor gassifier last summer, no problems at all.  The key, as with any gasser, is dry wood.  It's pretty simple load and go.  Clean ashes every couple of days and clean tubes once every other week.  Much better than the indoor wood burning furnace I previously had, and MUCH less wood.


I guess I was thinking fussy in regards to what you can put in. My buddy loves his current OWB because he can basically cut down a tree and start shoving it in. If you were to tell him that he needed to split wood so it could dry, he would consider that a fussy boiler. Matter of perspective, I have an Inddor gasser so splitting and dry wood is the norm and I have no issue.


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## Fred61 (Mar 17, 2016)

userdk, perhaps you should consider purchasing some advertising space here.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 17, 2016)

Have you considered a regular EPA certified indoor wood stove, (not a boiler)you would probably get away with half the wood your now burning. And they are by nature gassifiers.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 17, 2016)

Have you considered a regular EPA certified indoor wood stove, (not a boiler)you would probably get away with half the wood your now burning. And they are by nature gassifiers.I have a friend with an outdoor boiler and his wood consumption is 2 -3 times what mine is and he has  a smaller house.


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## dlabrie (Mar 18, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Have you considered a regular EPA certified indoor wood stove, (not a boiler)you would probably get away with half the wood your now burning. And they are by nature gassifiers.I have a friend with an outdoor boiler and his wood consumption is 2 -3 times what mine is and he has  a smaller house.


 We have had indoor wood stoves and boilers over the years in different houses. 10 years ago we went with the OWB and loved keeping the mess outdoors. I mentioned the idea to my better-half and it didn't fly.


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## Pat32rf (Mar 27, 2016)

Have you ever thought of more insulation. Seems to me like you are burning a lot of wood. 
Doesn't matter what fuel, insulation is going to save.....


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## dlabrie (Mar 28, 2016)

Pat32rf said:


> Have you ever thought of more insulation. Seems to me like you are burning a lot of wood.
> Doesn't matter what fuel, insulation is going to save.....


 We actually had the house sealed up and insulated as much as was possible about 5 years ago. There isn't much I can do with the insulated 2X4 walls. I should, however, replace my windows but haven't gotten around to that yet.


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## Pat32rf (Mar 28, 2016)

Doesn't matter what fuel, insulation is going to save.....

Seems like every item I read on old house, heating, building, etc makes it plain that new windows are purely comfort items instead of fuel savers. 
When we bought our present house we found that all the exterior walls had 1" of closed cell foam board stuck to them. I covered the foam with drywall and made some new trim. That and some blown in attic cellulose reduced the heating load by almost half.....(caulked the old windows as well)


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 28, 2016)

Pat32rf said:


> Doesn't matter what fuel, insulation is going to save.....
> 
> Seems like every item I read on old house, heating, building, etc makes it plain that new windows are purely comfort items instead of fuel savers.
> )


They say the best window insulates no better than the worst wall. They do have triple pane if you want to go to the next level.


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## dlabrie (Mar 28, 2016)

My windows are Andersen sliders from 1973. The sealing strips between the windows are shot. On a really windy day, you can see the curtains move. I've tried to find replacement seals with no luck. You can't drop a replacement window in these frames; the entire unit has to come out and be replaced. The walls have R13 fiberglass insulation and when I resided the house I put ½” of rigid insulation under the new siding. The attic is piled high with cellulose insulation so I do believe the weak point in my insulation is the windows.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 29, 2016)

dlabrie said:


> . You can't drop a replacement window in these frames; .


Id be looking for a way to fit replacements. Or at least some kind of interior or exterior sealed storm windows.


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## begreen (Mar 29, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Have you considered a regular EPA certified indoor wood stove, (not a boiler)you would probably get away with half the wood your now burning. And they are by nature gassifiers.


Have to agree that this is the route I would look into carefully. It could dramatically cut down wood consumption and waste heat. Plus, no power needed if that is important.


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## begreen (Mar 29, 2016)

dlabrie said:


> My windows are Andersen sliders from 1973. The sealing strips between the windows are shot. On a really windy day, you can see the curtains move. I've tried to find replacement seals with no luck. You can't drop a replacement window in these frames; the entire unit has to come out and be replaced. The walls have R13 fiberglass insulation and when I resided the house I put ½” of rigid insulation under the new siding. The attic is piled high with cellulose insulation so I do believe the weak point in my insulation is the windows.


In the least I'd be putting up storm windows, or temporary shrink to fit storms on the interior. They really work.


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## Fred61 (Mar 29, 2016)

I see you're in NH. Contact someone who sells or installs Harvey windows. With the large number of sizes they offer you should be able to get something to fit. I've used their new construction windows several times when replacements were not able to be installed. They're not fancy but very well built and tight. Any carpenter or installer worth his salt should be able to make the installation look original. I have them in my house.
Discloser: I have an account with Harvey but I don't benefit from any sales.

Edit: There are several types of heat loss. Infiltration is the worst of all.


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## Tennman (Mar 29, 2016)

About 8 years ago I researched cost effective, indoor, gasification boilers. Outdoor gassers didn't exist then, but New Horizons was the leading importer of inexpensive gassers (didn't say best). I drove to WV, reviewed the designs and construction of their product line and been very happy with the BioMass. If I was making the same decision today with the same price point in mind, I'd consider the Attack. But would absolutely again pick the BioMass over the EKO. In general if you can spend a few thousand more on the boiler you can get into many excellent choices in the mid tier boilers. Running a gasser with storage and seasoned wood totally transforms the workload and experience. In boilers like anything else, you get what you pay for. Storage is the key to cutting the leash a wood boiler holds on your schedule. If I was buying a gasser today I'd at least budget to go to the next level. But if several grand is a deal breaker look at the New Horizons site.


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## dlabrie (Mar 29, 2016)

Tennman said:


> Running a gasser with storage and seasoned wood totally transforms the workload and experience. In boilers like anything else, you get what you pay for. Storage is the key to cutting the leash a wood boiler holds on your schedule. If I was buying a gasser today I'd at least budget to go to the next level. But if several grand is a deal breaker look at the New Horizons site.


 The problem I keep running into is I need 160-180* water for my slant fin baseboards. If I am understanding this correctly, gassers with storage are used in low radiant temp systems.


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## Tennman (Mar 29, 2016)

I'm not sure what slant fin baseboards are. I think we have the worst case emitter... a water to air (WTA) heat exchanger in our duct work. Depending on the outside temp we can keep the place comfortable with 130-140*F water. Obviously the fan runs for quite a long time and it feels like heat pump warmed air. But on days when it's in the 50's not a big deal. Been really enjoyable here lately to do a burn every other day charging 1000 gal. 160*F on the low end is pretty hot to keep comfortable. But that too could be linked to inefficient insulation and poor windows. 160* would probably get much lower if the home was tighter. FYI, our home is old and also very leaky but can be kept acceptable down to 135-140*F.

Yes, radiant it more efficient using lower temps, but we don't have radiant and there's many others here that don't. Since you're running a boiler now I guess you know well the minimum temps those emitters need for your home. I'm guessing slant fins don't have a fan, relying on convection to move air?

Somehow you need to be able to use a broader temp spectrum.... down to 130-140*F. Welcome and take your time asking questions here.


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## dlabrie (Mar 29, 2016)

Tennman said:


> I'm not sure what slant fin baseboards are. I think we have the worst case emitter... a water to air (WTA) heat exchanger in our duct work. Depending on the outside temp we can keep the place comfortable with 130-140*F water. Obviously the fan runs for quite a long time and it feels like heat pump warmed air. But on days when it's in the 50's not a big deal. Been really enjoyable here lately to do a burn every other day charging 1000 gal. 160*F on the low end is pretty hot to keep comfortable. But that too could be linked to inefficient insulation and poor windows. 160* would probably get much lower if the home was tighter. FYI, our home is old and also very leaky but can be kept acceptable down to 135-140*F.
> 
> Yes, radiant it more efficient using lower temps, but we don't have radiant and there's many others here that don't. Since you're running a boiler now I guess you know well the minimum temps those emitters need for your home. I'm guessing slant fins don't have a fan, relying on convection to move air?
> 
> Somehow you need to be able to use a broader temp spectrum.... down to 130-140*F. Welcome and take your time asking questions here.


Slant fin is a forced hot water baseboard radiator. When the house was built,  the radiators were sized to a boiler that produced 180* water. If I wanted to use anything less than 160* water, I would have to replace the current baseboards with low temperature baseboards. I really don't want to go that route.


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## Tennman (Mar 29, 2016)

Oh... I'm only familiar with the wood/pellet world here. Makes sense there are boiler systems out there that maintains a constant, high water temp. I can see running that CB to maintain 180* water would inhale wood and keep you very busy. Thinking about that makes me tired.


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## maple1 (Mar 29, 2016)

dlabrie said:


> The problem I keep running into is I need 160-180* water for my slant fin baseboards. If I am understanding this correctly, gassers with storage are used in low radiant temp systems.



I have Slant Fin baseboards. Gasser & storage. I can run my storage down to the 130 range before I light a fire & before the house starts losing temp (depends on the weather). Comes down to how much baseboard you have & what it was designed for originally.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 30, 2016)

I have finned baseboard,and when its very cold out i run it at 200 to 210 Degrees. Otherwise i start losing room temp. I do have a poorly insulated very old house i would add. Cast iron radiators fare much better with cooler water temps and the King of warm water heat is still radiant floor heat.


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## dlabrie (Mar 30, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> the King of warm water heat is still radiant floor heat.


You are so right! If my cellar didn't have finished ceilings, I would have installed radiant floor heat throughout my house long ago.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 31, 2016)

dlabrie said:


> You are so right! If my cellar didn't have finished ceilings, I would have installed radiant floor heat throughout my house long ago.


In in the process of closing up the last of my basement ceiling ,but as you said now would be an excellent time to install some radiant underfloor tubing as my kitchen is above.
Ill have to look into the cost of the regulator and manifold and an additional pump.Just for one room it may not be cost effective.


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## Hydronics (Apr 1, 2016)

You might consider a lower priced downdraft such as Econoburn or EKO enclosed next to your wood lean-to. Plumb it with tees for future storage. When you get the $ add the storage if you deem it worthwhile.
You can run them like an outdoor boiler. Obviously not as efficient as with storage but much better than a CB and your 160-180 water temp requirement is not an issue. Something to consider.
Hopefully your underground pex has an oxygen barrier.


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## dlabrie (Apr 1, 2016)

Hydronics said:


> You might consider a lower priced downdraft such as Econoburn or EKO enclosed next to your wood lean-to. Plumb it with tees for future storage. When you get the $ add the storage if you deem it worthwhile.
> You can run them like an outdoor boiler. Obviously not as efficient as with storage but much better than a CB and your 160-180 water temp requirement is not an issue. Something to consider.
> Hopefully your underground pex has an oxygen barrier.


I was wondering if I could do something like that. I could actually put it in the corner of the garage with a door into my woodshed. Would the Storage be in the garage or in the house? Would it have to be pressurized? I am not sure if my PEX is oxygen barrier or not. Here is a pict of it, can someone tell me if it is?
Thanks


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 1, 2016)

Mine has the words Hydronic Barrier Tubing   A few Feet from those numbers


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## Hydronics (Apr 1, 2016)

Putting the boiler in the garage sounds most economical.
With only 1" tubing you'd have a tough time carrying the flow to heat storage in the house as you came up on the higher temps of storage you'd likely have idling of the boiler. How far is it to the house? Storage in the garage is likely your best bet.
You should have O2 barrier or a heat exchanger, there are also chemical treatment options. If it doesn't say barrier, it likely isn't.


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## dlabrie (Apr 1, 2016)

Hydronics said:


> With only 1" tubing you'd have a tough time carrying the flow to heat storage in the house as you came up on the higher temps of storage you'd likely have idling of the boiler. How far is it to the house? Storage in the garage is likely your best bet.


85 feet to the house.


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