# Sharpening Angles?  How critical?



## daviddep (Aug 10, 2010)

Hello,

I own a 55 Rancher and love it.  No problems for 5 years.  the chain is .50  3/8.   7/32 file/stone size. 

My chain calls for:  10/25 degrees.   I just hand sharpened it at 0/30.  Will it make a big difference?   I read that my chain/saw combo is a lowkickback, and not following those angels could cause kickback.

Someone please elalborate?  I enjoy learing and perfecting the hand file technique. I also jsut bought a small bench grinder for $44.00.  Got great reveiews. I still want to hand file as well. 


In any case, please discuss these angles and how they affect cutting, ect.. and what happens if they are not followed?   Give examples if you could? Like one angle is more aggressive, ect...

Thanks!


----------



## kenskip1 (Aug 10, 2010)

David, I would need to know the brand and if it is a chisel chipper ext. Stihl, Oregon, Carlton? For the wood that is in your area, (maple, beech cherry) I wood use 30-35. However certain Oregon chains use 25. Go to the manufactures site, look at the drive link for a number and you should find the correct angle.Ken


I lived in the city of Rome for over 20 years.Beautiful area especially with the foliage changing color.


----------



## DiscoInferno (Aug 10, 2010)

There was a discussion earlier on the 10 degree angle.  Most people here seem to ignore it and hold the file level.  With cheap grinders (or maybe any, mine is cheap) I don't even think it's an option.  I try to keep the factory angles with new chains but eventually I think I wind up flat.  General consensus also seemed to be that most folks didn't worry too much about having exactly 25 or 30 degrees (or whatever).  I suppose the chain designers would be appalled, but there you go.


----------



## zzr7ky (Aug 10, 2010)

Hi - 

I did it close to zero/30 for years and didn't know any better.  I 'i about 10/30 now on Oregon LGX (.50 3/8.  7/32 file) and the chips fly.  

You can just start filing the new angle and it will straighten up over a couple sharpenings.

I found I liked the saws even better with a loop of Stihl yellow or Oregon LGX on them.  Ym buddies put the Wild Things down and start loading the truck ; )  

ATB, 
  Mike


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

The 10 degrees is your tilt (grinder would be 60) all angle are's Important. Not going to write a book here because there is a lot of thought on evey angle. Carlton has a free book on bailys.com Most aggressive work chain will be square filed angles I work with are 10 tilt 30angle (hand file) 




My chain calls for:  10/25 degrees.  I just hand sharpened it at 0/30.  Will it make a big difference?  I read that my chain/saw combo is a lowkickback, and not following those angels could cause kickback.

This all depends on your saw can it handle the more aggresive chain 10/30 would be the corect way!


----------



## HittinSteel (Aug 10, 2010)

Man Jay, that is like reading chinese. I use a hand file and take 2 or 3 strokes following the angle mark printed on the chain, hit the rakers with a pass or two with a bastard file and I'm done.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

HittinSteel said:
			
		

> Man Jay, that is like reading chinese. I use a hand file and take 2 or 3 strokes following the angle mark printed on the chain, hit the rakers with a pass or two with a bastard file and I'm done.



Read the op question he wants to know Why a chain does this and that.....lol Thats a book thats hard to follow unless you have some serious drive length time.... "Yep your right for work chain" Should I break down a race chain for him? Milling chain? or Homeowner chain? And do not forget proggressive rakers!
http://www.baileysonline.com/itemdetail.asp?item=106971&catID;=


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

We talked about the 10 degree angle last spring, some chains recomend it and most do not, smoke do you do the 10 degree on all your chains or just the ones that call for it?


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> We talked about the 10 degree angle last spring, some chains recomend it and most do not, smoke do you do the 10 degree on all your chains or just the ones that call for it?



I am running a Oregon 511a and a cyclone wheel (rakers hand file to shape and depth) so all chains will get both angels. On cross cutting for firewood not a huge deal, money saw its more important and milling it is a "MUST" The more corect the chain is the smoother it will cut and picking up speed in the cross cut.


----------



## HittinSteel (Aug 10, 2010)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> HittinSteel said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just giving you a hard time! I know angles etc. are very important when milling.

BTW Jay, update on my 260, replaced the fuel filter, fuel line and gave the carb a bath in my ultrasonice cleaner....... running like a little animal again.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

HittinSteel said:
			
		

> smokinjay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol Had know dought you knew your way around a chain...It can be just that simple though and should be in the feild.....I got to get one of those Cleaners.


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

The reasoned I asked is when I first bouth my 045 (1979) it called for the 10 degree angle but since then I do not remember ever seeing one of my Stihl chains calling for it.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> The reasoned I asked is when I first bouth my 045 (1979) it called for the 10 degree angle but since then I do not remember ever seeing one of my Stihl chains calling for it.



I am sure all chains still call for a 10 degree tilt this helps to clean out the gullets.

You can clearly see the 10 degrees here.


----------



## Danno77 (Aug 10, 2010)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> You can clearly see the 10 degrees here.


if you say so, but I think it looks like 11 maybe 12 degrees.
lol.

i hand file and who know what degrees I'm doing.... All I know is that it cuts better right after I've gone through it.


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Well thats interesting, not doubting you but I have the info for my chains and will look later.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> smokinjay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol the 10degree tilt is the part of the cutter that clears the chips....without it your still going to cut but your cutter will clug up quicker and need to file more offten. Not a big deal for the weekend guy. I just like my chains to be perfect fast and when milling very smooooth. (a lot goes into a great chain)

Oh and 5.00 bucks 16 in. and under 7.50 for 20 and under in. 10.00 for 25in. and under (biggest chain from a customer so far)


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

This is the point where I got confused last spring, a look at the Stihl site and it shows the file at 90 in relation to the bar, am I missing something?


----------



## DiscoInferno (Aug 10, 2010)

Some chains call for 90 degrees in that plane, some call for 80 (or 100, depending on your reference) but choose to call it 10 for some reason.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> This is the point where I got confused last spring, a look at the Stihl site and it shows the file at 90 in relation to the bar, am I missing something?



Do you still have the paper work that comes with the chain? You can go by that but most stihl chain is 30/10 (grinder 30/60) and a lot of other brands say 35/10 tilt but I cut 3/8 .050 to the 30/10 and the .325 at 25/10 picco or micro chains at 20/10. Its a boarder bush to keep it simpler and not any difference in performance. Milling chain is 10/10....Without the tilt the cutter gets clog much quicker because it will stick to the gullet. I remember that thread most don't under stand this and if your not doing it for money or the 5 cord a year guy your still going to get it done. (just chase your tail a little) When it gets cold out these guys become my customers....lol


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

"Stihl site and it shows the file at 90 in relation to the bar"......That sound like the relationship's of you standing next to the bar.


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

Let me explain my self better(I hope) even though it works better with the 10 degree tilt I think my Stihl chain info (and site) call for 90 degrees in relation to bar, so maybe they do this because it is easier to do the 90 degrees. It sounds like you are saying it works better with the 10 degrees even if they call for the 90 degrees. Is that clear. :lol:


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> "Stihl site and it shows the file at 90 in relation to the bar"......That sound like the relationship's of you standing next to the bar.


 I am going to quit now as I am lost for the most part, I can not find any info about the 10 degrees but it was in the info with my chains when I first bouth my saw. Going to look for info when I get the chance.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> smokinjay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol there is a top plate and a side plate angle....If you keep it simple 30 degrees with a slight downward slope its all good.


----------



## DiscoInferno (Aug 10, 2010)

I think I've posted this diagram before, but here it is again:
http://www.opeconsult.com/chainsaw.htm





The "top-plate filing angle" (usually 25-35 degrees) and "file guide angle" (0/90 or 10) are the two you can control by how you hold the file.  I'm not sure how the "top-plate cutting angle" and "side-plate angle" differ, but one or both are determined by the diameter of the file and I think are around 60 degrees.  On my cheap grinder I can control only the "top-plate filing angle", the top/side-plate angles are fixed and I don't even know what the grinder equivalent of the file-guide angle is.  I think someone before said it was how deep you grind, although I don't see how that relates.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

DiscoInferno said:
			
		

> I think I've posted this diagram before, but here it is again:
> http://www.opeconsult.com/chainsaw.htm
> 
> 
> ...



If the grinder is set at 60 tilt and 30 degree (for most chains)  angel stops are all set and working good..It will all come out good...Now on to rakers lol


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

For Stihl chain, its all 0, 30, then 60 to 80 (vertical) depending on the type. Whether you use 25 or 30 it doesn't really make much difference, but hook angle will matter greatly for staying sharp, particularly on Chisel chain.

This is from a post on arborist site, this is the 0 or 90 I am talking about, can not find the 10 recomended any where for the stihl chain, this was how I got confused in the first place as I could not find it for my chains.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> For Stihl chain, its all 0, 30, then 60 to 80 (vertical) depending on the type. Whether you use 25 or 30 it doesn't really make much difference, but hook angle will matter greatly for staying sharp, particularly on Chisel chain.
> 
> This is from a post on arborist site, this is the 0 or 90 I am talking about, can not find the 10 recomended any where for the stihl chain, this was how I got confused in the first place as I could not find it for my chains.



They also have 80 as well, but sounds like your understanding and mine are a little different if we set down together it probably would be the same maniacs Take a good pic of your cutter and post it if possible?


----------



## oldspark (Aug 10, 2010)

I think I understand what you are saying, I was just confused on what stihl recomended, disco's post shows the 10 and 90 which is what I am talking about. I do all mine at the 90 as that is what it recomeneded, maybe I should sharpen one of my chains and take a picture because I do not seem to get them sharp any more.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 10, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I think I understand what you are saying, I was just confused on what stihl recomended, disco's post shows the 10 and 90 which is what I am talking about. I do all mine at the 90 as that is what it recomeneded, maybe I should sharpen one of my chains and take a picture because I do not seem to get them sharp any more.



When hand filing (I don't do much anymore) I always put a tilt no matter what chain it is. Woodland pro full chisel chain has the tilt recommend 80 degrees guess that may be where I pick it up.


----------



## golfandwoodnut (Aug 11, 2010)

I have a question, does it matter which side of the tooth you file?   I always filed on the same angle as the top plate and from the short side to the long side. I saw a video of a pro doing it and he actually filed from the opposite side of the chain from the point to the short side (if that makes sense).  Also everyone talks about the guide on the chain. My eyes must be getting bad, I never see a guide on the chain.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 11, 2010)

GolfandWoodNut said:
			
		

> I have a question, does it matter which side of the tooth you file?   I always filed on the same angle as the top plate and from the short side to the long side. I saw a video of a pro doing it and he actually filed from the opposite side of the chain from the point to the short side (if that makes sense).  Also everyone talks about the guide on the chain. My eyes must be getting bad, I never see a guide on the chain.



depending what side your fileing from changes the angle but can be pulled of from either side. I like to push the file through.


----------



## DiscoInferno (Aug 11, 2010)

Some chain has a witness mark (line) on the top of each cutter that shows the correct angle.  I think it also shows how far down you can file the tooth, but not sure about that.  My Oregon chain has it, but my Woodland Pro does not.  I like having the mark, so I may go back to Oregon.


----------



## daviddep (Aug 11, 2010)

Wow,  thanks for the feedback and pics!   Actually just bought at $42. bench/vise grinder from Norther tool.    It got great reviews and I'm going to say it did great as well!   Now, that grinder does not even have an adjustment for the 0 or 10 degrees.  every chain gets 0.  

also have the Husy all in one file/raker guide.  That works wonders....

well, the chain calls for 10 and 25 in the manual.   so I'm doing it 0 and 25 on the grinder.  In the field, it will be 10/25 as i'm using the Husy tool.  Great video on Youtube with a Pro who demos it.  

The grinder sure is fun to use...makes me like a Pro....

but can anyone answer how "kickback" could be increased by not following the recommend angles??


----------



## smokinj (Aug 11, 2010)

daviddep said:
			
		

> Wow,  thanks for the feedback and pics!   Actually just bought at $42. bench/vise grinder from Norther tool.    It got great reviews and I'm going to say it did great as well!   Now, that grinder does not even have an adjustment for the 0 or 10 degrees.  every chain gets 0.
> 
> also have the Husy all in one file/raker guide.  That works wonders....
> 
> ...



ok you should have a tilt on the grinder and most all chain is ground to 60 degrees tilt. so your #'s should look like 60/25


----------



## DiscoInferno (Aug 11, 2010)

daviddep said:
			
		

> but can anyone answer how "kickback" could be increased by not following the recommend angles??



Well, kickback only happens with any (reasonable) chain if you touch the top of the nose of the bar to the wood without the top of the bar supported (as in nose-buried cutting or boring).  So it won't change that.  But the angle (and especially the rakers) helps determine how aggressive the chain cuts, and I would assume more aggressive = stronger kickback if it does happen.  Probably some lawyers involved as well.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 11, 2010)

DiscoInferno said:
			
		

> daviddep said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would rather have kick-back on a chainsaw over a table saw any day..lol unreal what a table saw can throw at you.


----------



## golfandwoodnut (Aug 12, 2010)

Yea Smokin, I remember the videos from wood shop class that scared me for life.  I try to never stand behind a board when going through a table saw.  I remember some gut shots (real or fake) that kind of sticks  :vampire: with you.

As far as a chain saw a safety chain is less agressive and also probably stays sharper a little longer.  Just does not cut as fast, I have not noticed any increased kick back, just always know what the tip of the chain saw is hitting.  It is the branch you do not see that can be the hazard.  Branches in general are the hazard as they can trip you, they can spring at you, etc. Rarely have trouble with a trunk, you just need to know how to keep from pinching the chain when the log starts closing, get it out, or use a wedge.  Although I rarely use a wedge.  Just normally cut from the bottom once the top starts closing.  Roll the log when you can.


----------



## John_M (Aug 13, 2010)

Danno and Disco +1.    Disco is also correct about the witness mark on top of the cutter being the limit of how much metal may be removed from the cutter after which the chain should be replaced.  ;-)  Get your chimney cleaned and your wood stacked for this fall.  Happy weekend. John_M


----------

