# Purchase made - Froling S3 with dual 240 gal Storage



## Newfiestang (Feb 11, 2021)

Well folks after a lot of reading and pondering over the last three years i finally made this large purchase. I will be starting this build in late spring or early summer and will try my best to post the steps along the way. I will be doing this build myself so im sure i will look here for guidance from time to time, hope you will join me, very excited to get this system installed for the next heating season.

I've posted the piping diagram below, if you see anything that dont look right or can be improved please dont hesitate to comment.


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## hyfire (Feb 12, 2021)

What size expansion tank are you going with? Why not parallel fed tanks?  No dirt mag seperator? No PRV on oil boiler?


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## lotawood (Feb 12, 2021)

Maybe bigger diameter pipe for the boiler to storage.  1 inch sounds small.  What is the pipe diameter on the boiler?  I wouldn't reduce the size coming out or in to the boiler. Froling would be near the top of my list for a replacement boiler.


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## hyfire (Feb 12, 2021)

Depends if its 1" copper or 1" pex or sch 40 pipe.  You need to maintain 2-4 feet per second max velocity 2 preferred. I would say  with 1" copper it probably be ok with 10-12 gpm. You probably need about 10 gpm with that boiler depending on the delta t your seeing.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 13, 2021)

hyfire said:


> What size expansion tank are you going with? Why not parallel fed tanks?  No dirt mag seperator? No PRV on oil boiler?



There is a PRv right off the boiler where the gauge is.

Actually series fed tanks is whats recommended by Biothermic, the dealer in Canada for Froling. Apparently series fed tanks appear more like one single big tank. I dont have room for one larger tank as all this has to pass through several doors to get in my basement to my boiler room.

There is a Discal air seperator just off the Froling, it is my understanding this unit is also a dirt trap which is why i have a drain piped to it.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 13, 2021)

lotawood said:


> Maybe bigger diameter pipe for the boiler to storage.  1 inch sounds small.  What is the pipe diameter on the boiler?  I wouldn't reduce the size coming out or in to the boiler. Froling would be near the top of my list for a replacement boiler.



The boiler piping is 1", its the recommended size for the S3.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 13, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Depends if its 1" copper or 1" pex or sch 40 pipe.  You need to maintain 2-4 feet per second max velocity 2 preferred. I would say  with 1" copper it probably be ok with 10-12 gpm. You probably need about 10 gpm with that boiler depending on the delta t your seeing.



Will be piped with 1" copper.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 13, 2021)

hyfire said:


> What size expansion tank are you going with? Why not parallel fed tanks?  No dirt mag seperator? No PRV on oil boiler?



Oh and the expansion tank will be a Flexcon 62 gal, also recommended by he Froling dealer based on the info i sent them and the water volume estimated in this system.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 13, 2021)

Also not shown on the diagram, but the oil boiler which is currently installed will still have its own expansion tank and PRV. This is a retrofit as i will be removing a 35 year old New Yorker WF100 and installing this new boiler with storage. The WF100 can heat my 3600 sqft home no problem but we are a slave to it, filling every 2 to 3 hours on cooler days here in Newfoundland Canada.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 13, 2021)

Keep us posted. My dream (one day) is to build a house with hydronic heating, and heat primarily with wood through a boiler.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Also not shown on the diagram, but the oil boiler which is currently installed will still have its own expansion tank and PRV. This is a retrofit as i will be removing a 35 year old New Yorker WF100 and installing this new boiler with storage. The WF100 can heat my 3600 sqft home no problem but we are a slave to it, filling every 2 to 3 hours on cooler days here in Newfoundland Canada.



Your winter time quality of life will change immensely for the better. Not to be under estimated. Looking back at the 17 years I spent with my old boiler - holy ugly, Batman. I was literally drained by the time burn season ended.


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## hyfire (Feb 13, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> The boiler piping is 1", its the recommended size for the S3.


I would assume that be copper or sch40 pipe not pex?


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## hyfire (Feb 14, 2021)

What about a safety system for boiler overheat on power failure I dont see it in your piping?


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Your winter time quality of life will change immensely for the better. Not to be under estimated. Looking back at the 17 years I spent with my old boiler - holy ugly, Batman. I was literally drained by the time burn season ended.



Yes Maple I completely understand what you mean. We are only in our late 40's but we are feeling the burden this old boiler puts on our day to day activities. I mean we have oil backup but our home is fairly large at 3600 sqft, cant image what are heating bill will be if we had to solely heat with oil. We currently burn about $2200 per year now in addition to the 6 to 7 cord of wood. I am really hoping the oil bill will be reduced drastically even if we consume the same amount of wood.

Right now even if I fill the wood boiler at say 11 PM, it only last until about 3 AM at best, then we are back over on oil until we relight in the morning. Hoping to at least get all night out of storage if fully charged before we turn in for the night.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

hyfire said:


> What about a safety system for boiler overheat on power failure I dont see it in your piping?



Yes you are correct, its not there on the dwg but it is currently installed on my current system. Biothermic states that its not necessary as the boiler has the ability to complete shutdown during power failure but im not 100% sure at this point. I can easily add it in all the same, as i said the current system already has a dump zone valve (basement) so it will be a simple addition.

Also the Froling has a built in over heat connection that will be piped in from the cold water supply. If the boiler sense over heat it open a valve allowing city water to direct flow through this connection quickly cooling the boiler.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

hyfire said:


> I would assume that be copper or sch40 pipe not pex?



Correct not pex, it will be copper, just never gave the wall thickness or schedule much thought yet.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

Actually just made a slight change to the piping for the DHW heater as I learned that only the DHW pump will energize will a call for DHW heating. In the original dwg that would mean that the DHW pump would have to pull water through the heating circulator, but by changing the DHW supply piping to the suction of the heating pump should fix that issue. All circulators will be controller by the Froling S3 programming, DHW given priority if i choose to program that way. Something i will have to play with.

You will also notice a 3 way diverter valve on the cold water return next to the oil boiler. This valve will switch between oil and wood heating depending on setpoints programmed in the Froling. If storage and wood boiler temp not satisifed then the return water will be switched to the oil boiler and the oil boiler will be aloud to fire. If wood boiler and storage temps above the desired setpoint then the oil boiler will be locked out by the Froling controls and removed from the water circuit by the 3 way diverter valve.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Keep us posted. My dream (one day) is to build a house with hydronic heating, and heat primarily with wood through a boiler.



Will do.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 14, 2021)

Very nice setup.  That kind of looks like my Froling DHW tank, about 110 gallons or so.  I haven't run my pellet boiler much at all, but use the DHW tank all the time.  The Burnham cast iron boiler heats it up.  It's well insulated.  I figure the long run time does it good.  The burn chamber of the oil boiler looks pretty good when I do the yearly cleaning-not much stuff from cleaning the passageways either.

Something to maybe think about is unintended flow and the use of check valves.

I'm sure the Froling will come with a bunch of instrumentation, but maybe something remote, maybe even cloud, to avoid trips downstairs.

I put my pellet boiler on solid concrete blocks, what they call 'termite blocks'.  I hadn't really thought about how to get the boiler off the pallet and onto the blocks.  You probably have a lot more to think about without a door to the outside from the basement.


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## hyfire (Feb 14, 2021)

Whats your feelings about using ecm circulators?  I cant tell in your drawings?


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

velvetfoot said:


> Very nice setup.  That kind of looks like my Froling DHW tank, about 110 gallons or so.  I haven't run my pellet boiler much at all, but use the DHW tank all the time.  The Burnham cast iron boiler heats it up.  It's well insulated.  I figure the long run time does it good.  The burn chamber of the oil boiler looks pretty good when I do the yearly cleaning-not much stuff from cleaning the passageways either.
> 
> Something to maybe think about is unintended flow and the use of check valves.
> 
> ...



The DHW tank is what was recommended by Boithermic here in Canada, the Froling dealer. Its made by a Canadian company I think, Thermo2000. Its an indirect DHW heater thats very efficient with very fast recovery times.

TurboMax – Instantaneous indirect water heater by Thermo 2000 | Thermo2000 

Yes I was wondering about some check valves but to be honest no matter what scenario I play out whether it be oil boiler doing the heating, Froling, Storage, etc., I cant really see where there is a need for one. There are scenarios wher the water will have two possible flow paths but water like electricity will take the path of lease resistance (head) so i think im good. 

Of course the circulator pumps have built in checks. With that said, if you see any place where you think I would need a check please dont hesitate to comment, thats why I posted here, really looking for improvements or for someone to point out anything I missed. I am a instrumentation and controls tech by trade but im sure i dont know everything with hydronic heating even though ive been around this stuff for some time.

Yes there is an option to purchase the Froling Touch Display which can be connected to your home modem and you can then view parameters anywhere that has an internet connection. With that Display it allows you to use Frolings free app and portal, Froling Connect. The display is a $700 option so im on the fence with it right now.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Whats your feelings about using ecm circulators?  I cant tell in your drawings?



ECM?


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## hyfire (Feb 14, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> ECM?


Yes low power with different flow based on setpoints or delta t . Example is taco vt 2218. Pump


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## Newfiestang (Feb 14, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Yes low power with different flow based on setpoints or delta t . Example is taco vt 2218. Pump



Ok gotcha. The Froling actually has the ability to make any conventional pump a variable speed pump. Maybe not exactly the same as the pumps you are referring to but still the ability is there now with the latest control version on the S3.


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## maple1 (Feb 15, 2021)

The Grundfos Alpha is also an ECM circ. Variable speed. I would highly recommend one for a zone circ that would see varying flow conditions depending how many zones are calling for heat. But an ordinary 3 speed circ works pretty good as a boiler circ.


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## jebatty (Feb 15, 2021)

maple1 said:


> The Grundfos Alpha is also an ECM circ. Variable speed. I would highly recommend one for a zone circ that would see varying flow conditions depending how many zones are calling for heat. But an ordinary 3 speed circ works pretty good as a boiler circ.


What's the Btuh rating of the Froling you are installing?


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

maple1 said:


> The Grundfos Alpha is also an ECM circ. Variable speed. I would highly recommend one for a zone circ that would see varying flow conditions depending how many zones are calling for heat. But an ordinary 3 speed circ works pretty good as a boiler circ.



Well the way i see it is that even a variable speed circ will still only ever get up to the max speed of a regular 3 speed circ....unless im missing something. So if thats the case the only advantage is running slower when no need to run a max RPM. From an energy consumption point these things are low power anyway so not really a big consumer of power.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

jebatty said:


> What's the Btuh rating of the Froling you are installing?



Its the S3 with 30Kw trim so 102,500 BTU's. My heat load is 42,000 BTU/hr. Like i mentioned above i am heating this home fine with a 35 year old NYer WF100 thats about 50% efficient at best so Im guessing this one will be fine.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 15, 2021)

I have manual adjustable ECM pumps.


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## jebatty (Feb 15, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Its the S3 with 30Kw trim so 102,500 BTU's. My heat load is 42,000 BTU/hr. Like i mentioned above i am heating this home fine with a 35 year old NYer WF100 thats about 50% efficient at best so Im guessing this one will be fine.


I was concerned with the 1" copper piping as to its capacity to handle the Froling rated output. I think 1" is OK for a 30Kw system.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 15, 2021)

I recall needing some bigass pipe wrenches.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

jebatty said:


> I was concerned with the 1" copper piping as to its capacity to handle the Froling rated output. I think 1" is OK for a 30Kw system.


Perfect sounds good.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

FWIW, my `100K BTU system ancient Burham seems to do fine with 1" piping.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> FWIW, my `100K BTU system ancient Burham seems to do fine with 1" piping.



Yup and my old WF100 currently doing the heating is all piped with 1" black Iron, never had an issue beside it eating wood.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

I have a Taco pump that came with my  Burnham and may be 40 years old, My guess is if I had bit more flow I could charge up my 500 gallons of indirect  storage a bit quicker but expect I would run out of heat exchanger area on my coil so it may not make a lot of difference.


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## chew72 (Feb 15, 2021)

First question what are your heat emitters? 
Second question "instrumentation and controls tech" So am I kinda.. More Automation and controls / electrician. Do you have any plc experience? 
(plc = programmable logic controller) if anyone's wondering 

 I ask because I didn't plan on having a PLC at home, but as I was plumbing the system I started thinking with everything I wanted to do, I'd be silly not to. 
 I still need to clean up the screen or make it into multiple screens but to give you an idea. 
	

		
			
		

		
	






At a glance I can see exactly where my storage is at.

You know the saying "if all you have is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail" well the PLC has become my hammer. 
Irrigation system, plc.  Leaving the compressor on in the shop, contactor / 4-Hour timer. There are other examples but you get the idea.


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## maple1 (Feb 15, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Well the way i see it is that even a variable speed circ will still only ever get up to the max speed of a regular 3 speed circ....unless im missing something. So if thats the case the only advantage is running slower when no need to run a max RPM. From an energy consumption point these things are low power anyway so not really a big consumer of power.



They really shine with varying loads. As more of my zones open, the circ pumps faster. And vice versa as they close. Keeps each zone in a good consistent spot all the time re. fps and heat delivery.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

chew72 said:


> First question what are your heat emitters?
> Second question "instrumentation and controls tech" So am I kinda.. More Automation and controls / electrician. Do you have any plc experience?
> (plc = programmable logic controller) if anyone's wondering
> 
> ...


My emitter's are fin type baseboard rads, nothing special.

Yes I have PLC experience but honestly I dont thing i will need any extra control installed, the Froling software likely has all i will need, I just need to cough up the cash for the Touch Display which allows the connection to the parameters anywhere there is internet.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

I did what I could to avoid a PLC. I was burned too many times at work running into odd ball PLC's that needed software that was no longer available or not supported on a current version of windows. I have real nice GE Fanuc system with plenty of IO cards stored away that is useless to me as I dont have access to software that will talk to it. Yes the PLC would add a lot of options for control but not much use if I cant program it.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

maple1 said:


> They really shine with varying loads. As more of my zones open, the circ pumps faster. And vice versa as they close. Keeps each zone in a good consistent spot all the time re. fps and heat delivery.


Yes I agree and like i mentioned the Froling will have compete control of the heating pump as it has the ability to make and conventional pump variable speed.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> I did what I could to avoid a PLC. I was burned too many times at work running into odd ball PLC's that needed software that was no longer available or not supported on a current version of windows. I have real nice GE Fanuc system with plenty of IO cards stored away that is useless to me as I dont have access to software that will talk to it. Yes the PLC would add a lot of options for control but not much use if I cant program it.


Yes thats the issue, the software is difficult to access. Most of my experience is with Siemens Step 7, Allen Bradly, and some Omron a long time ago.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

So guys there has been a few comment on this post now and its much appreciated but can anyone really take a look at my piping design and comment if there are any major design flaws. It was a basic design i seen in one of the many documents ive read over the last 2 years and basically just redrew it in ACAD drafting software to make it my own. I've used ACAD for almost 25 years now but the latest versions are something else. You can pretty much import any type of file (drawing, picture, pdf) and ACAD will convert it to a vector file that can be modified within ACAD......which is what I done with this one.

Someone mentioned above that i dont have any check valves and they were correct but i honestly dont see anywhere to install them to improve things but sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees lol. The circ pumps all have built in checks.  Im looking for new eyes to review this for errors or improvements.

I know there is a possibility that I may get some ghost flow through the wood boiler when i heating from storage, anyone else see this as a maybe.....or is it most likely. The flow would have to overcome the restrictions of the 3 way loading pump so im guessing it might not be much go through that but not 100% certain. Im really trying to keep this design as simple as possible, I can add zone valves to close off certain paths but that only brings more components to the system, i really dont want any extra if i can avoid it. Thoughts?


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## chew72 (Feb 15, 2021)

I've looked over your piping layout and everything looks good to me. I'm guessing that's why people aren't commenting on it. You got it right the first time.

I agree and don't see where check valves would help any. Also my froling is 30kw and runs about 9gpm, so the 1" pipe should be fine. As for the ghost flow. Now when you say loading pump, is that the  circulator and boiler protection all in one? If so I believe it may have a built-in check valve. This is meant to act as a bypass if the circulator / power fails and will allow the boiler to thermosiphon. I'm not sure if this would be a problem or not, and I'm kind of curious to hear has ever been an issue for someone.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 15, 2021)

chew72 said:


> I've looked over your piping layout and everything looks good to me. I'm guessing that's why people aren't commenting on it. You got it right the first time.
> 
> I agree and don't see where check valves would help any. Also my froling is 30kw and runs about 9gpm, so the 1" pipe should be fine. As for the ghost flow. Now when you say loading pump, is that the  circulator and boiler protection all in one? If so I believe it may have a built-in check valve. This is meant to act as a bypass if the circulator / power fails and will allow the boiler to thermosiphon. I'm not sure if this would be a problem or not, and I'm kind of curious to hear has ever been an issue for someone.


Well I hope your right lol.

Yes correct its a ThermoBloc 281, and it does have a built in check but it also has a screw that you can leave in place so the check wont be able to operate. I know this is not recommended for reasons you mention but that same safety feature can also cause some ghost flow in a situation where the froling is not firing and that pump is off but im pulling heat from storage. That's the only concern i have so far.

What storage do you have and how many square feet you heating? I'm on the low side i know with only 480 gal but I will be happy if i do a evening burn i can at least get until early morning from storage. We dont get crazy cold temps here, anywhere from 5 to -10 deg C is the norm for a few months in winter. Whats your thoughts?


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## peakbagger (Feb 16, 2021)

John Seigenthaler the hydronics guru has a couple of courses on hydronic design on Heatspring.com and a book on hydronics design. Amazon product I took his paid course a few years back. He also has some great hydronics software that the course covers https://www.hydronicpros.com/downloads/  there are some trial versions that may be worth looking at. They are powerful tools but expect a bit pricey for a homeowner doing a single system.  

Subsequently he did a course sponsored by NYSERDA on biomass heating for free.  If you get his book and watch the NYSERDA video you will get a lot of ideas https://www.heatspring.com/courses/...iciency-biomass-boilers-sponsored-by-nyserda/ .

One of his recommendations in the paid course is to write a detailed functional write up of how the system will work in all operating modes. If done correctly it forces you to figure out the controls. Its also is the first step for any future technician to diagnose the system in the future.  We all may want to live forever but its likely that the system you install will outlive you or your ability to repair it.  That can be liability in the future if you have to sell your home.

With respect to ghost flows, John is major fan of hydraulic separators. I think its detail that many of us miss. 

The trade off for John's approach is he designs to commercial standards. This means more money up front on the installation but better control , system efficiency and diagnostics in the long run.


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## maple1 (Feb 16, 2021)

Did you get input on piping from the dealer?


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## chew72 (Feb 16, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Well I hope your right lol.
> 
> Yes correct its a ThermoBloc 281, and it does have a built in check but it also has a screw that you can leave in place so the check wont be able to operate. I know this is not recommended for reasons you mention but that same safety feature can also cause some ghost flow in a situation where the froling is not firing and that pump is off but im pulling heat from storage. That's the only concern i have so far.
> 
> What storage do you have and how many square feet you heating? I'm on the low side i know with only 480 gal but I will be happy if i do a evening burn i can at least get until early morning from storage. We dont get crazy cold temps here, anywhere from 5 to -10 deg C is the norm for a few months in winter. Whats your thoughts?


5 to - 10 describes this winter here perfectly. The avg over night low has been - 6 to - 8C

I'm heating roughly 1500sq feet to 22C on the main level of the house with 1000sq ft left unheated on the second level. Plus a 500sqft detached shop where the boiler and storage live. The 1500sqft is primarily heated via water to air heat exchanger operating around a 45* delta t

 For storage I have two 500gallon propane tanks installed vertically and plumbed in parallel. During the shoulder seasons I valve one off and just use one 500 gallon as DHW becomes half the load. 

( forgive the switch to Fahrenheit. I always think of heating systems in Fahrenheit) 
My routine looks like this: come home at 5 p.m. Top of storage is at 110 or 140*F. The rest of the tank is at 100-110. I ballpark my storage hitting 110* water between 3:30-6pm ( I can still heat the house comfortably off of this for another 16 hours) I make a fire at 5pm typical output temp is 150-160. Around 7-8pm I'll fill it again this will bring me to roughly 3:30pm any wood added after this will carry me past 3:30pm. Also this is 80-90% softwood. Hardwood would have me sail past 5pm.

With your system I *suspect* (I'm not an expert just my opinion) you will find you make a fire in the morning that will heat all day. If you keep it going by the time storage is charged I don't think that will quite carry you all night. A lot of variables there. The other scenario is making fire in the morning  that will heat the house all day  and let it go out .  Then in the afternoon  make a second fire, that one you keep going and will charge the storage carrying you overnight. 

( also this is all assuming you don't let the boiler idle trying to obtain maximum efficiency) oh and if you wood is dry it takes me 5-10mins tops, to make a fire and walk away. 

Last thing. I'm trying not to be too long winded. You have me intrigued about 500 gallons of storage. One of the reasons I parallelled my system is if a tank develops a leak, I can valve it Off. As a test I think I'm going to setup some trends on the tank storage and valve one tank off to see what 500 gallons of storage does for me. I'll post the results on here once I get them.


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## chew72 (Feb 16, 2021)

The tough part with your setup is the the fin type baseboards. Do you happen to know if they are oversized for the rooms at all? Also what is the current operating temperature that you would typically get comfortable heat out of the system.


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## maple1 (Feb 16, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> My emitter's are fin type baseboard rads, nothing special



You might find that to be holding you back when it comes to time between burns, especially with that amount of storage (on the small side). Any chance of adding more of it, or maybe some cast iron rads in spots?


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## Newfiestang (Feb 16, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> John Seigenthaler the hydronics guru has a couple of courses on hydronic design on Heatspring.com and a book on hydronics design. Amazon product I took his paid course a few years back. He also has some great hydronics software that the course covers https://www.hydronicpros.com/downloads/  there are some trial versions that may be worth looking at. They are powerful tools but expect a bit pricey for a homeowner doing a single system.
> 
> Subsequently he did a course sponsored by NYSERDA on biomass heating for free.  If you get his book and watch the NYSERDA video you will get a lot of ideas https://www.heatspring.com/courses/...iciency-biomass-boilers-sponsored-by-nyserda/ .
> 
> ...




Yes ive read some of Johns stuff and watched some of the youtube videos, maybe ill take that course, surely cant hurt.

And yes a complete operating manual is definitely in the "to do list". Will need that as my mind ages as well lol, already finding my memory not what it was 10 year ago and im not 50 yet.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 16, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Did you get input on piping from the dealer?



Yes somewhat, that drawing kind of started as a standard dealer piping design and we both then modified it from there. I've done all the latest changes in ACAD putting components in the actual positions as they will be piped when its "as built".


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## Newfiestang (Feb 16, 2021)

chew72 said:


> 5 to - 10 describes this winter here perfectly. The avg over night low has been - 6 to - 8C
> 
> I'm heating roughly 1500sq feet to 22C on the main level of the house with 1000sq ft left unheated on the second level. Plus a 500sqft detached shop where the boiler and storage live. The 1500sqft is primarily heated via water to air heat exchanger operating around a 45* delta t
> 
> ...



Ok well thats good info on your times. I know i dont have your storage capacity but it gives me some idea on what to expect. As i mentioned in the beginning I have no issue doing two fires a day, I'm basically doing about 5 a day right now and still cant get past 3am after filling at 11:30 PM or so.

I figure if I do one in the morning and another at 10 PM or so I should get to morning again. The house is about 18 years old and built be myself and is insulated well and do keep heat quite well for the size. I dont even mind have to add some wood during the day to be honest but right now its a constant battle keeping wood to the old boiler and if two of the larger zones (living Room and Basement) call for heat the same time it pretty much pulls down the temp to where the oil will take over for a bit. Very frustrating.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 16, 2021)

chew72 said:


> The tough part with your setup is the the fin type baseboards. Do you happen to know if they are oversized for the rooms at all? Also what is the current operating temperature that you would typically get comfortable heat out of the system.



Yes pretty much all rooms have more than the recommended linear ft of heater. 

I run the wood boiler at about 190 deg F

The oil boiler takes over at 165 def F. When on oil its low high setpoints are 160 -180 deg F.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 16, 2021)

maple1 said:


> You might find that to be holding you back when it comes to time between burns, especially with that amount of storage (on the small side). Any chance of adding more of it, or maybe some cast iron rads in spots?



Yes i expect it will be the limiting factory only having 500 gal but i only have about 50 gal now lol between the oil and wood boilers combined.

There is no chance of more storage, just donw have the space, im pushing it now getting all this new stuff into that room.

Yes I guess I could add cast iron rads, do they still make a baseboard style, never really thought of that. Dont think the wife would go for those big stand up units lol, even though i like them.


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## chew72 (Feb 16, 2021)

This will be such a game changer for you. I grew up with just a wood stove. If you wanted heat you made a fire. The living room was wonderfully warm. The rest of the house, cold. Then after moving out dad installs a new yorker wood boiler. The house is warm but your babysitting the boiler (softwood) Dad however enjoys sitting by the boiler. Me I have 3 small kids so no time. The fact I can stuff 5 cubic ft of wood in there then walk away is amazing. Come out a few hours later and stog it full again!


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## Sparky978 (Feb 16, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> The DHW tank is what was recommended by Boithermic here in Canada, the Froling dealer. Its made by a Canadian company I think, Thermo2000. Its an indirect DHW heater thats very efficient with very fast recovery times.
> 
> I have a 119 gal.  Thermo2000  for my pellet boiler/oil boiler set up. I will agree the recovery times are very fast. It's an expensive tank but it is a well made and high quality. I think you will be happy with it.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 16, 2021)

Very Nice. What type of pipe insulation is that. Im a long way from that stage but I will be insulating boiler room pipes for sure at some point. And I will need to do the same to the storage tanks.


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## Sparky978 (Feb 17, 2021)

It is commercial grade fiberglass with kraft paper outer jacket. The elbows are a preformed pvc that come in various sizes and just wrap around the insulation.
Good luck with your project.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 19, 2021)

That insulation looks awesome.  Mine is I think neoprene.
I put a foam hat on my similar sized Froling buffer/dhw tank.
I put an electronic controlled mixing valve on the buffer tank to keep the water temp high going to the distribution system, with the excess heat going into storage.  It works but I've never tried to quantify it.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 20, 2021)

velvetfoot said:


> That insulation looks awesome.  Mine is I think neoprene.
> I put a foam hat on my similar sized Froling buffer/dhw tank.
> I put an electronic controlled mixing valve on the buffer tank to keep the water temp high going to the distribution system, with the excess heat going into storage.  It works but I've never tried to quantify it.
> 
> View attachment 274982


Velvetfoot, do you have a piping diagram for your system, curious to what it looks like as i see you have an oil fired boiler in the system as well.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2021)

Here's one.  Without that mixing valve I was talking about.  Also, I'm not sure why I had the spirovent at the buffer tank.  I added another one close to where the oil boiler tees in. (I was having problems with air).






						Post Your Piping Diagrams
					

1. The DHW coil is a fairly large indirect coil like you would find in a boiler and is big enough to supply hot water for laundry and a shower simultaneously.  But I take the output of the DHW coil through a Taco 5000 series mixing valve configured as a diverter valve where the output goes to...




					www.hearth.com
				




Here's some stuff on that mixing valve.





						Using Mixing Valve on Tank to Maximize Buffer Use and Pellet Boiler Runtime
					

Something that ticks me off is when the pellet boiler is running and one or no zones are on, the flow is to the buffer tank.  This means that very cool water is returning to the boiler and the protection valve comes into play, big time.  Meanwhile, the boiler, which modulates down to 30%, is...




					www.hearth.com


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## hyfire (Feb 21, 2021)

What are you using for air elimator caleffi discal or sprivovent?


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## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

hyfire said:


> What are you using for air elimator caleffi discal or sprivovent?


Caleffi Discal.


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## hyfire (Feb 21, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Caleffi Discal.


Ok try and get it pretty close to the boiler outlet as feasible with some isolation valves for maintance.  Also you still should use a siprotop vent at the top of the tank.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Ok try and get it pretty close to the boiler outlet as feasible with some isolation valves for maintance.  Also you still should use a siprotop vent at the top of the tank.


Thats where its shown in the dwg but I was actually thinking about moving it to just before the suction of the heating zone pump in my dwg, figured that way all heating sources would be feeding it and not just the wood boiler as it is shown now. Thoughts?

Also, each tank will be fitted with Auto air vent as well as other locations as well such as the supply and return manifolds. Should be fine hey?

5020 MINICAL - Automatic air vent 3/8" M e 1/2" M | Caleffi International


----------



## hyfire (Feb 21, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Thats where its shown in the dwg but I was actually thinking about moving it to just before the suction of the heating zone pump in my dwg, figured that way all heating sources would be feeding it and not just the wood boiler as it is shown now. Thoughts?
> 
> Also, each tank will be fitted with Auto air vent as well as other locations as well such as the supply and return manifolds. Should be fine hey?
> 
> 5020 MINICAL - Automatic air vent 3/8" M e 1/2" M | Caleffi International


You would probably still would be putting alot micobubbles in the 1 st tank. Ultimate is to use another at the oil boiler. Those vents are fine but you maybe want to put ball valves ahead of them for maintenance purposes.


----------



## chew72 (Feb 21, 2021)

velvetfoot said:


> Here's one.  Without that mixing valve I was talking about.  Also, I'm not sure why I had the spirovent at the buffer tank.  I added another one close to where the oil boiler tees in. (I was having problems with air).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 When you first fire the system or if it's been sitting cold all summer the colder water holds onto more dissolved gasses. So typically the source of heat for the system is where the gasses and air will start to come out of solution. 

I'd also put it  just before the main circulator for the zones as that circulator will see the most run time and have the most water run through it. 

It sounds like you have the right idea putting air eliminators on the storage tanks if you not pulling water from the tippy top. As well as your DHW tank. On my system the mistake was not having any air vents on the hot water bypass loop for cold water protection. The hot supply pipe went up 3' off the boiler. The bypass Teed off of this horizontally for 5' then down to the cold water protection. On my first fire all the air coming out got trapped in that horizontal run. I had to keep shutting off the boiler circ to allow the air to go up that 3' pipe to the vent. I ended up replacing the 90 that went down to the cold water protection and put a T in with an air vent.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

hyfire said:


> You would probably still would be putting alot micobubbles in the 1 st tank. Ultimate is to use another at the oil boiler. Those vents are fine but you maybe want to put ball valves ahead of them for maintenance purposes.


I have this old one is the existing system, guess i could use it off the oil boiler and the new Discal off the wood boiler? Of course i will install a new vent on it and clean it up.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

chew72 said:


> When you first fire the system or if it's been sitting cold all summer the colder water holds onto more dissolved gasses. So typically the source of heat for the system is where the gasses and air will start to come out of solution.
> 
> I'd also put it  just before the main circulator for the zones as that circulator will see the most run time and have the most water run through it.
> 
> It sounds like you have the right idea putting air eliminators on the storage tanks if you not pulling water from the tippy top. As well as your DHW tank. On my system the mistake was not having any air vents on the hot water bypass loop for cold water protection. The hot supply pipe went up 3' off the boiler. The bypass Teed off of this horizontally for 5' then down to the cold water protection. On my first fire all the air coming out got trapped in that horizontal run. I had to keep shutting off the boiler circ to allow the air to go up that 3' pipe to the vent. I ended up replacing the 90 that went down to the cold water protection and put a T in with an air vent.


Ok makes sense. My highest point will be the supply and return manifolds so thats where i currently have air vents on the old system. Seems to work, i rarely get air out in the zones. Having the vents on these, on both tanks and DHW heater, along with the air separators off each boiler supply piping should take care of the air im hoping. I will update the dwg in a few days to get everyone's thoughts. Appreciate all the feedback here.....thanks


----------



## hyfire (Feb 21, 2021)

Make sure its in good shape they could get clogged up wth dirt if its really old. I still suggest you put a dirtcal in the system or dirt mag, last thing you want is dirt your brand new s3.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

Whats everyone's thoughts on the Nibco valves?

NIBCO BRONZE BALL VALVE,SWEAT,1 IN - Ball Valves - WWG41E345 | S58570 1 - Grainger, Canada


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## hyfire (Feb 21, 2021)

Not sure on the valves for quality vs cost but grainger is a reputable company.  Back to your project your expansion tank prpbably needs a 1" npt where do you intend to plumb it?


----------



## chew72 (Feb 21, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Not sure on the valves for quality vs cost but grainger is a reputable company.  Back to your project your expansion tank prpbably needs a 1" npt where do you intend to plumb it?



Has 1" npt, doesn't need 1" npt. The volume of flow is very low.  I did mine with 3/4 just for physical strength. Good point on where to plumb it though. It's shown on the supply side of the boiler. This is probably ok but my understanding is it should be on you lowest blue line shown. The best practice is for pumps to pump away from your expansion tank. If they pump towards it you loose the pressure the circulator was developing and instead of pushing the water it's kinda sucking it. This is only a problem if it causes cavitation, but it's more likely under those circumstances.

Also do you have any plumbing wholesalers in your area? I'd say At least 25-40% of the time they are good about your avg Joe coming in to buy things and will give you a fair price along with the time of day.  Plus I find quality tends to meet a minimum standard.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

chew72 said:


> Has 1" npt, doesn't need 1" npt. The volume of flow is very low.  I did mine with 3/4 just for physical strength. Good point on where to plumb it though. It's shown on the supply side of the boiler. This is probably ok but my understanding is it should be on you lowest blue line shown. The best practice is for pumps to pump away from your expansion tank. If they pump towards it you loose the pressure the circulator was developing and instead of pushing the water it's kinda sucking it. This is only a problem if it causes cavitation, but it's more likely under those circumstances.
> 
> Also do you have any plumbing wholesalers in your area? I'd say At least 25-40% of the time they are good about your avg Joe coming in to buy things and will give you a fair price along with the time of day.  Plus I find quality tends to meet a minimum standard.


As per the dwg I was planning on plumbing the make up water and expansion tank plumbing to the Discal 1/2" drain port as shown. And this was following the pump away strategy if im correct? Main heating circ will be pumping away at this point.

Actually here is an updated dwg which better details the actual plumbing as components will laid out in my room. The main horizontal header will run between the supply manifold to first tank.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Make sure its in good shape they could get clogged up wth dirt if its really old. I still suggest you put a dirtcal in the system or dirt mag, last thing you want is dirt your brand new s3.


True, where would be a good place to plum it in.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 21, 2021)

Oh......and the boiler shows up tomorrow, its starting to get real now.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 21, 2021)

I got a cheap Harbor Freight pallet jack to  move it around in the basement when it was still on the pallet.  I have other uses for it though, moving tons of pellets around.


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## salecker (Feb 22, 2021)

Short sections of small pipe work great for moving a boiler around on a hard floor.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 22, 2021)

I actually purchased a garden cart rated for 1100 pounds. I will lower it into my outside stairwell with my moni excavator. Place it on the cart and then pull through my recroom, home theater room to get to boiler room. I actually hav to take down one wall to get this in the room lol. What a guy wouldn't do to get gasification lol.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 22, 2021)

Some teaser pics. As you can see, lucky it made it in one piece, pallet was busted on one side.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 22, 2021)

The brains, 3-way diverter valve, low water cutt-off sensor, and cold water protection valve.


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## hyfire (Feb 22, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Ok makes sense. My highest point will be the supply and return manifolds so thats where i currently have air vents on the old system. Seems to work, i rarely get air out in the zones. Having the vents on these, on both tanks and DHW heater, along with the air separators off each boiler supply piping should take care of the air im hoping. I will update the dwg in a few days to get everyone's thoughts. Appreciate all the feedback here.....thanks





Newfiestang said:


> True, where would be a good place to plum it in.


That is a good question, no perfect answer though.. Read article make a decision.


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## hyfire (Feb 22, 2021)

Sorry forgot to attach the article. The boiler looks like quite nice.  I would put the dirt mag to the right side of your boiler thermoblock  unit
https://www.hpacmag.com/features/expansion-tank-dos-and-donts/


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## chew72 (Feb 23, 2021)

Newfiestang said:
			
		

> Some teaser pics. As you can see, lucky it made it in one piece, pallet was busted on one side.


 "The good news is it only fell over once"


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## Newfiestang (Feb 23, 2021)

chew72 said:


> "The good news is it only fell over once"


LOL hope not.


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## hyfire (Feb 24, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Caleffi Discal.


You can plumb your expansion tank at the bottom of discal but use a tee and i see this is your fill point?


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## Newfiestang (Feb 24, 2021)

hyfire said:


> You can plumb your expansion tank at the bottom of discal but use a tee and i see this is your fill point?


Yes, I have a drain for the air sep there, another tee for the make up water, and also a connection to the left for the expansion tank. Is there anything wrong with that arrangement?


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## chew72 (Feb 24, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Yes, I have a drain for the air sep there, another tee for the make up water, and also a connection to the left for the expansion tank. Is there anything wrong with that arrangement?


I forgot about the idronics collection. It's a good read if you haven't. Here is a link showing what I was describing before. Again so long as your circulator isn't cavitating it shouldn't be an issue but this explains the reason for the ideal location.
https://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/blog/about-my-expansion-tank


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## hyfire (Feb 25, 2021)

So it looks like the ideal location is at the bouler return connection nipple with a tee and a valve for tank service.


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## chew72 (Feb 25, 2021)

If it were me I'd do the expansion tanks in 3/4" make up water in 1/2" and the drain could be either. Mine is 3/4"


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## hyfire (Feb 25, 2021)

chew72 said:


> If it were me I'd do the expansion tanks in 3/4" make up water in 1/2" and the drain could be either. Mine is 3/4"


I would do the same way he also has to use a listed backflow preventer valve and pressure reducing regulator on the fill point. Also i would incoporate a drain spigot at the expansion tank, dirt seems to collect at the bottom of the tank, he needs to put a tee there and as well and once in a while flush it out.


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## Bad LP (Feb 25, 2021)

hyfire said:


> I would do the same way he also has to use a listed backflow preventer valve and pressure reducing regulator on the fill point. Also i would incoporate a drain spigot at the expansion tank, dirt seems to collect at the bottom of the tank, he needs to put a tee there and as well and once in a while flush it out.


He should already have a back flow preventer and pressure reducer in the line feeding the boiler. Both systems are tied together anyway so I don't see the need for a second set.


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## maple1 (Feb 25, 2021)

1/2" is way adequate for expansion tie in.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 25, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> He should already have a back flow preventer and pressure reducer in the line feeding the boiler. Both systems are tied together anyway so I don't see the need for a second set.


Correct.....this already exists but I will be relocating. Right now its just at oil boiler inlet.


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## hyfire (Feb 27, 2021)

I was Reading this article on temperature vs flow rate have a look at what they show vs temperature for DHW not sure if it applies here.  If we look at the flow rate then 1" would not provide 2 fps above 160F.  But I guess it be OK with 6 gpm and 40 degree Delta T.  that would be about 100k btu load


----------



## maple1 (Feb 28, 2021)

hyfire said:


> I was Reading this article on temperature vs flow rate have a look at what they show vs temperature for DHW not sure if it applies here.  If we look at the flow rate then 1" would not provide 2 fps above 160F.  But I guess it be OK with 6 gpm and 40 degree Delta T.  that would be about 100k btu load
> 
> View attachment 275495
> 
> ...



You're comparing DHW to a sealed pressurized boiler system? Does not seem applicable to me?


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## hyfire (Feb 28, 2021)

maple1 said:


> You're comparing DHW to a sealed pressurized boiler system? Does not seem applicable to me?


Its more of a concern in boiler systems since the water circulates more hours than a dhw system, so it applies the same. He will be Ok with 1" if he can get a highdelta t and lower gpmi,ts just something to think about at the high temps long term and pipe lifespan.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 28, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Its more of a concern in boiler systems since the water circulates more hours than a dhw system, so it applies the same. He will be Ok with 1" if he can get a highdelta t and lower gpmi,ts just something to think about at the high temps long term and pipe lifespan.


Thanks Hyfire.

Good info but I will have to take my chances now, all 1" components purchased. Also, the current system has plenty of 1" copper pipe and the circulator between the two existing boilers have been running straight time during the cold season for 18 years and pipe is still holding. And im pretty sure the existing pipe is not type K.

 I tend to taker some of the literature with a grain of salt but I still appreciate all the info, and i read every article I can, knowledge is power!!, especially when your learning. Thanks


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## Newfiestang (Feb 28, 2021)

Started the 3D piping, work in progress but im hoping that I can pretty much have every component counted for by the time the summer roles around and im ready to install. I dont live close to the major supply shops in Newfoundland so having a 3D drawing of the actual boiler room should help alot with trips to the supply store. From this drawing I will create a complete BOL (Bill of Materials)


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## Newfiestang (Feb 28, 2021)

The detail of some of the 3D CAD models is absolutely crazy these days. Im an old school ACAD user and just learning this 3D stuff as I go and Im in aww of where its gone over the years. Below is a Caleffi Quicksetter adjustable flowmeter.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 28, 2021)

Cant find a model of copper Tee's so just used steel, serves the purpose for what i need this dwg for. 

And the pump is not the Caleffi Thermobloc 281 but it will do.


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## maple1 (Feb 28, 2021)

Would you want to switch your union & valve locations? First thing I screwed into my boiler and tank fittings were valves. Well, I guess the second thing, after a nipple. Then you can isolate boiler and tank water if you have to disassemble/service the piping related stuff. I had to do that once to unstick a circulator.


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## hyfire (Feb 28, 2021)

Looks amazing!, but I don't think your allowed to have a shut off before the pressure relief valve, if someone shut it off and forgot about it that could be a big problem, kinda results  like  space shuttle challenger rocket booster gaskets in cold weather.  Sorry my mistake that is a sensor, silly me!


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## hyfire (Feb 28, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Thanks Hyfire.
> 
> Good info but I will have to take my chances now, all 1" components purchased. Also, the current system has plenty of 1" copper pipe and the circulator between the two existing boilers have been running straight time during the cold season for 18 years and pipe is still holding. And im pretty sure the existing pipe is not type K.
> 
> I tend to taker some of the literature with a grain of salt but I still appreciate all the info, and i read every article I can, knowledge is power!!, especially when your learning. Thanks


Ya, i think some these calculations have lots of tolerance in the real world.


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## Newfiestang (Feb 28, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Would you want to switch your union & valve locations? First thing I screwed into my boiler and tank fittings were valves. Well, I guess the second thing, after a nipple. Then you can isolate boiler and tank water if you have to disassemble/service the piping related stuff. I had to do that once to unstick a circulator.


Maple you make a good point, ill make that change back. I actually had it that way first.


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## hyfire (Feb 28, 2021)

Where is the pressure relief valve located on this unit or do you have to pipe one in yourself?


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 28, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Where is the pressure relief valve located on this unit or do you have to pipe one in yourself?


Each boiler will have its own PRV, for the piping ive shown above you will see a Tee just below the gauge, thats where the PRV will go. Just havent got that far yet.


----------



## Newfiestang (Feb 28, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Looks amazing!, but I don't think your allowed to have a shut off before the pressure relief valve, if someone shut it off and forgot about it that could be a big problem, kinda results  like  space shuttle challenger rocket booster gaskets in cold weather.  Sorry my mistake that is a sensor, silly me!


Yes thats the Low water sensor.


----------



## hyfire (Mar 1, 2021)

Your storage tanks your plumbing them in series why not parallel?  Whats the pro and cons of each method?


----------



## Newfiestang (Mar 2, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Your storage tanks your plumbing them in series why not parallel?  Whats the pro and cons of each method?


According to the Froling folks series connected tanks act more like one big tank than two tanks connected in parallel. It was advised that this is the preferred connection. 

Basically the first tank will hold most of the higher temp water then the second tank will stratify similar to what one large tank would do.

To be honest i never researched it too much.


----------



## hyfire (Mar 3, 2021)

Whats your opinion about adding a  swing check valve between tanks, or is it not needed?


----------



## Bad LP (Mar 3, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Whats your opinion about adding a  swing check valve between tanks, or is it not needed?


Why do you think it's needed? 

We placed one in the primary loop and took the swing away. It messed things up. If you do use one put it someplace where it's easy to disable.


----------



## Newfiestang (Mar 3, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Whats your opinion about adding a  swing check valve between tanks, or is it not needed?


Unless im misunderstanding, if i add a swing check between the two tanks there will be no flow when heating zones pull water from storage, as in this scenario the flow through the tanks and associated piping is in the opposite direction then when charging tanks from wood boiler.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 3, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Unless im misunderstanding, if i add a swing check between the two tanks there will be no flow when heating zones pull water from storage, as in this scenario the flow through the tanks and associated piping is in the opposite direction then when charging tanks from wood boiler.



Sounds right.


----------



## hyfire (Mar 3, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Sounds right.


Scrap the check valve idea, bad idea.


----------



## hyfire (Mar 3, 2021)

Do you think it will be ready to fire within a few weeks?


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## Newfiestang (Mar 3, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Do you think it will be ready to fire within a few weeks?


No.....I wish. I wont be starting this until late spring, just cant go without heat right now.


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## chew72 (Mar 4, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Each boiler will have its own PRV, for the piping ive shown above you will see a Tee just below the gauge, thats where the PRV will go. Just havent got that far yet.


I think it's code to not be able to valve off the pressure relief. I'd have boiler,  pressure relief then valve for sure.  Also I'd put the low water cut off on its side to the left or right. Right now it's going to trap air possibly cutting off the system when it shouldn't.


----------



## Newfiestang (Mar 4, 2021)

Had the valve already changed but good idea on the LWC sensor.


----------



## Newfiestang (Mar 5, 2021)

Struggling with the location of unions on boilers. I know some suggest to install the valves as close as possible to inlet/outlet of boiler for isolation reasons but the unions in these locations will be dielectric for the purpose of protecting the boiler and piping from corrosion due to dis-similar metals.  In other locations the unions will be for ease of piping install/removal so not a concern.

As I currently have it in some of the latest pics above, i have the valve connected closest to the boiler but this configuration wont have an dielectric separation between it and the boiler. I know this makes more sense in terms of isolating the boiler from the piping but  im more interested in protecting the boiler from corrosion to be honest. Too much money invested here to not do this right. Im thinking that if i switch it to the union connected to the boiler first, if i do have an issue with the boiler im likely into a situation where i need to drain the boiler anyway, that can still be achieved if valve installed after union.

Thoughts from the experienced minds appreciated?


----------



## Eureka (Mar 5, 2021)

Don’t use dielectric unions, they’re bad.  Black pipe, copper, brass, all play fine together on a boiler system.  Dielectric unions are only preferred by engineers.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 5, 2021)

Eureka said:


> Don’t use dielectric unions, they’re bad.  Black pipe, copper, brass, all play fine together on a boiler system.  Dielectric unions are only preferred by engineers.



Its hard to not use them when all my new equipment recommends it. I work in an industrial environment and see what damage dis-similar metals can do when not isolated properly so im am a little concerned here considering the cost of this install. With that said most of my experience is not with steel and copper so i cant draw on my experience for that.


----------



## chew72 (Mar 5, 2021)

I feel like I remember reading it's not that bad if you go copper-brass-steel. That's how my connections are made. Though a more knowledgeable opinion in this case would be welcomed.


----------



## salecker (Mar 5, 2021)

11 years with no issues,also no unions.
Yes to lots of valves
Steel brass and copper and a closed system,the last time i checked the bottom of my tanks the water was crystal clear and zero sediments.I used,used copper pipe and 90% used fittings all from a privious boiler system built in the 50's that i salvaged the pipe and fittings from.There was no issue of any stuff not playing well together in the system either.


----------



## Eureka (Mar 5, 2021)

One arrangement that seems to fail often is male black pipe threaded into female copper. I think the female copper stretches around the harder steel.
Important goals with any hydronic system are no air, and no leaks.  Threaded joints seem to be the most common corrosion point, and a slightly leaking threaded connection can create corrosion in short time.
Also, corrosion inhibitor is good and helps keep things shiny inside.
Dielectric unions often corrode (maybe that’s the plan?).  Some peeps don’t like the idea of plastic being at the 200+ degree boiler exit.
Do some searching on this and other forums (heating help) to get more real world opinions on dielectric unions, but I hear where your coming from too, @Newfiestang.  It’s one of those deals that gets spec’d.


----------



## Bad LP (Mar 5, 2021)

I'm directly responsible for over $12m of a families personal properties. I assure you that over an area of 5 houses you will not find a single dielectric union anywhere. The oldest house is over 40 years old and I've been here from the day the trees were being cleared, all the blasting of ledge and the road was built. If there was ever a problem I'd be the first one to know about it. BTW all of these buildings are on private well water of varying quality.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 5, 2021)

I also have no dielectric unions. My old boiler (17 years) had none. The system at my parents has none and it's as old as me (50+ years). Seems to me I'm faintly remembering an old thread on here that mentioned their issues?


----------



## hyfire (Mar 5, 2021)

Another thought are you going to use tap water to fill the system or something like distilled or deionized?


----------



## Newfiestang (Mar 6, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Another thought are you going to use tap water to fill the system or something like distilled or deionized?


using town water.


----------



## Newfiestang (Mar 6, 2021)

Great feedback folks. 

I cant say im a big fan of a thin piece of non metal material in a union constantly exposed to high temp either. I think its an recipe for leaks over time...... but im also not to interested in my components being damaged from corrosion either. Between my Froling, Turbomax 2000 DHW heater,  and 2 ASME tanks in sitting at about $14K CDN invested. 

Anyway I will continue my research on this topic and see where it leads me.


----------



## Newfiestang (Mar 6, 2021)

Eureka said:


> One arrangement that seems to fail often is male black pipe threaded into female copper. I think the female copper stretches around the harder steel.
> Important goals with any hydronic system are no air, and no leaks.  Threaded joints seem to be the most common corrosion point, and a slightly leaking threaded connection can create corrosion in short time.
> Also, corrosion inhibitor is good and helps keep things shiny inside.
> Dielectric unions often corrode (maybe that’s the plan?).  Some peeps don’t like the idea of plastic being at the 200+ degree boiler exit.
> Do some searching on this and other forums (heating help) to get more real world opinions on dielectric unions, but I hear where your coming from too, @Newfiestang.  It’s one of those deals that gets spec’d.


Pretty hard to avoid the black pipe threaded into copper as both my boilers have female NPT connections so pretty much have to start with a nipple. Maybe you meant the type of metal, black iron as opposed to steel or something?


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## salecker (Mar 6, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Great feedback folks.
> 
> I cant say im a big fan of a thin piece of non metal material in a union constantly exposed to high temp either. I think its an recipe for leaks over time...... but im also not to interested in my components being damaged from corrosion either. Between my Froling, Turbomax 2000 DHW heater,  and 2 ASME tanks in sitting at about $14K CDN invested.
> 
> Anyway I will continue my research on this topic and see where it leads me.


You got in cheap...


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## Newfiestang (Mar 6, 2021)

salecker said:


> You got in cheap...


Oh im in for $21600 so far, and i dont have any pipe, valves, fittings, etc yet., but all that together shouldn't run me more than another $2K i expect.


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## hyfire (Mar 6, 2021)

If you had propane it take about 15 years to burn through 20 k worth of gas or am i  way off prices? Is this wood boiler equipement really worth it ?


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## chew72 (Mar 6, 2021)

hyfire said:


> If you had propane it take about 15 years to burn through 20 k worth of gas or am i  way off prices? Is this wood boiler equipement really worth it ?


In my case I enjoy dealing with wood, so don't have to pay for a gym membership  I figure I'm in my system for $20k and this year with free wood I'm looking to save $2.5-3k on my electric bill.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 6, 2021)

hyfire said:


> If you had propane it take about 15 years to burn through 20 k worth of gas or am i  way off prices? Is this wood boiler equipement really worth it ?


Well propane is definitely not feasible here where i live, in fact im not even aware of any sort of central heating furnace/boiler that uses propane. Natural gas in not available here. Pretty much everyone in Newfoundland heats with electricity, oil or wood. Electricity in the form of baseboard emitters or a heat pump of some sort. Minisplits have become popular as well in recent years. 

Others heat with oil in the form of boiler or forced air but you know how that goes, its up and down like a dogs stomach. In fact a lot of folks in recent years have removed oil heat due to rising cost of oil and the cost of replacement oil tanks which have tripled in recent years.

I've always heat with wood and some oil and grew up in a house with same, so its more of a way of life i guess. And for me personally, i really love cool things that perform excellent at what they are meant to do. These gasification boilers seem to be that so here i am, $20K into it. And right now im in a position to make this investment but likely not once retired. Actually thats the main reason we decided to do this, we hope this investment allows us to stay in this fairly large home after we retire and living on a reduced fixed income. Long winded but thats my story lol.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 6, 2021)

Folks, toying with the idea of adding a zone valve on the hot water supply piping to the DHW heater. Im thinking that with no heating zones calling for heat and wood boiler fired im going to see ghost flow to the DHW boiler when its not calling. I know the circulator on the supply line  to the DHW heater will create some resistance to flow and most of the flow should go through buffer tanks but do you guys think this will be a problem? Dwg below to help with answers. 

In this scenario the Froling will set the 3 way diverter valve on the cold water return line to flow to wood boiler thus oil boiler will be isolated with no flow possible. Thoughts?


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## hyfire (Mar 6, 2021)

It might be a good idea to keep the DHW hot , legonella will grow  beltween 77-122F I think, so think of a way to keep that tank regulated to 125 min.  I would just put a check valve on  the oil boiler output so it cant flow backwards.  I understand your passion for wood, I miss burning it for a while now.  My condesning gas boiler will run on propane just a jet change.  Problem is with the new carbon tax, I will have to make a choice between heating or starving for food at the new gas rates.


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## TCaldwell (Mar 6, 2021)

Don’t assume “town water” is suitable, you should ask the town for a analysis. Often town water containers polyphosphates used to suspend iron particles shed from distribution piping. This isn’t a problem until the water is heated to 140degf, after that the iron particles drop out and can cause corrosion.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 7, 2021)

hyfire said:


> It might be a good idea to keep the DHW hot , legonella will grow  beltween 77-122F I think, so think of a way to keep that tank regulated to 125 min.  I would just put a check valve on  the oil boiler output so it cant flow backwards.  I understand your passion for wood, I miss burning it for a while now.  My condesning gas boiler will run on propane just a jet change.  Problem is with the new carbon tax, I will have to make a choice between heating or starving for food at the new gas rates.


The Froling will keep the DHW tank to whatever we decide to set it to anyway so i dont think Legonella is a concern. There will be a temp sensor on the DHW tank and connected to the froling controls. Also the DHW circ pump is controlled by the Froling as well.

You may be right on the check valve. Once the wood boiler is fired there will be a time frame there that the 3 way diverter valve is still open to the oil boiler so may be some back flow possible. Will have to put more thought into that but from first glance i think the only route for backflow will be through the DHW tank in reverse but the check valve in the circulator for that tank should stop that......I hope.


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## chew72 (Mar 7, 2021)

What size pipe is supplying the DHW? 1"?


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## Newfiestang (Mar 7, 2021)

chew72 said:


> What size pipe is supplying the DHW? 1"?


Never got that far in design yet but it can be, everything else is so no reason not to i guess. The Turbomax 43 DHW boiler which is what i have is fitted with 1 1/4" tapping for boiler water and DHW connections.


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## Bad LP (Mar 7, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Never got that far in design yet but it can be, everything else is so no reason not to i guess. The Turbomax 43 DHW boiler which is what i have is fitted with 1 1/4" tapping for boiler water and DHW connections.


Then I wouldn't bush them down.


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## chew72 (Mar 7, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Never got that far in design yet but it can be, everything else is so no reason not to i guess. The Turbomax 43 DHW boiler which is what i have is fitted with 1 1/4" tapping for boiler water and DHW connections.


We'll if it is 1" you can feed it the full output of the boiler. I'm gonna guess that 30kw of hot water is enough. Also if ghost flow is a concern why not zone it the same as your heating zones? And save you one circulator.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 9, 2021)

chew72 said:


> We'll if it is 1" you can feed it the full output of the boiler. I'm gonna guess that 30kw of hot water is enough. Also if ghost flow is a concern why not zone it the same as your heating zones? And save you one circulator.


Yes discussed option of zoning the DHW circuit but apparently that removes the ability of the Froling to have complete control over priority between heating and DHW demand. The froling controls every circulator and  can be programmed to pretty much what ever scenario you want in terms of priority.

But what I could to is wire a zone valve in parallel with the line voltage of the circ pump so that whenever the Froling turns on the DHW circ the zone valve opens.....other wise its closed. That may be worth doing.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 9, 2021)

Ok so im struggling with the simplest thing, where to plumb in the expansion tank. Ive read alot on the pump away philosiphy and it makes sense but what im struggle with is which circulator do i consider for this philosophy, the 3 way cold water protection circ or the heating zone circ?  Maybe i should plumb it at the suction of the Froling cold water protection circ and that will be placed in a pump away position for both that circ and the heating zone circ. Thoughts?


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## chew72 (Mar 9, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Ok so im struggling with the simplest thing, where to plumb in the expansion tank. Ive read alot on the pump away philosiphy and it makes sense but what im struggle with is which circulator do i consider for this philosophy, the 3 way cold water protection circ or the heating zone circ?  Maybe i should plumb it at the suction of the Froling cold water protection circ and that will be placed in a pump away position for both that circ and the heating zone circ. Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 276119


I would place it in the cold water feed to the froling myself. The main circulator to be concerned about in this regard is the heating circuit, as that circulator has the most head pressure to contend with.  But if that location covers all circulators why not.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 10, 2021)

Dwg 95% complete, few views.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 10, 2021)




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## Newfiestang (Mar 10, 2021)




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## Newfiestang (Mar 10, 2021)

Rear view with wall layer turned off.


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## hyfire (Mar 13, 2021)

I been studying this drawing for hours to see if something can be improved.  Question how are you regulating the flow to each zone valve or measuring flow.    I still say your going to get reverse flow into the oil boiler when off, not that it matters that much.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 13, 2021)

hyfire said:


> I been studying this drawing for hours to see if something can be improved.  Question how are you regulating the flow to each zone valve or measuring flow.    I still say your going to get reverse flow into the oil boiler when off, not that it matters that much.


You would be much better off looking at this dwg. below.

To answer your questions, Im not really regulating flow to each zone valve at all, nor am i doing that in my current system but never had an issue.

Maybe if all zone valves opened at same time this may be an issue but honestly ive never seen that happen. I have LED's in each zone valve cover plate so i know when a zone valve is open when im in the boiler room but only once did i see 4 zones open. Most times its one or two.

As for the reverse flow through the oil boiler, can you explain how you are seeing this? Im not understanding how that can happen. There is a three way diverter valve on the cold water return to oil boiler. Based on wood boiler temps this valve will either direct water to oil boiler or back to wood boiler/storage. Am i missing something?


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## Bad LP (Mar 13, 2021)

If you have ghost flow to the oil boiler just drop in a zone valve. That needs to remain cold when not in use.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 13, 2021)

Bad LP said:


> If you have ghost flow to the oil boiler just drop in a zone valve. That needs to remain cold when not in use.


As i stated, i dont see where im getting ghost flow to the oil boiler, the 3 way diverter valve prevents that....unless im missing something.


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## Bad LP (Mar 13, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> As i stated, i dont see where im getting ghost flow to the oil boiler, the 3 way diverter valve prevents that....unless im missing something.


It was just saying if you end up with ghost flow it’s easily stopped.


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## hyfire (Mar 13, 2021)

Ok you might not get flow but heat will conduct rather than flow into the boiler either from the tanks or from the boiler pump unit when running above its temp regupator and your other zones are not calling for heat.  I wouldnt worry about it too much. Your air seperator should be closer to boiler but then when your oil boiler runs it won,t flow through the seperator. You would need another one for the oil boiler.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 14, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Ok you might not get flow but heat will conduct rather than flow into the boiler either from the tanks or from the boiler pump unit when running above its temp regupator and your other zones are not calling for heat.  I wouldnt worry about it too much. Your air seperator should be closer to boiler but then when your oil boiler runs it won,t flow through the seperator. You would need another one for the oil boiler.


Actually thats what im hoping for as it will keep the oil boiler warm so when called for action it dont have to start from cold.

For the air separator, in actual linear ft its pretty close to both boilers but closer to the Froling. So you think i need one on the oil boiler as well?


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## hyfire (Mar 14, 2021)

Im not an expert at this stuff, but maybe someone else can help with their input. However it looks like the dhw pump will get no air seperation effect if the oil is running or wood boiler running . Also you will be charging the tanks with no air seperator, based on the drawing.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 14, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Im not an expert at this stuff, but maybe someone else can help with their input. However it looks like the dhw pump will get no air seperation effect if the oil is running or wood boiler running . Also you will be charging the tanks with no air seperator, based on the drawing.


Ya i can see your point on the oil boiler for sure. Maybe i will add one there, cant hurt i guess.

The DHW tank and buffer tanks do have a auto vent installed on it from the factory, figured that would be sufficient.


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## hyfire (Mar 14, 2021)

I understand that they have vents on them, but it cant hurt to add another .  Study video below


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## hyfire (Mar 14, 2021)

I just thought of something. If the wood runs out you will be heating the both tanks with oil. That sounds expensive, or am i incorrect?


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## Newfiestang (Mar 14, 2021)

hyfire said:


> I just thought of something. If the wood runs out you will be heating the both tanks with oil. That sounds expensive, or am i incorrect?


No, when the wood and buffer tank temp falls below the temp set in the Froling, the 3 way diverter valve will switch return flow through oil boiler only.  It may appear that some ghost flow may still get through buffer tanks back through wood boiler but the 3 way Thermobloc cold water protection circulator on the Froling has a built in thermostatic valve which also closes off so no path there ether.


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## maple1 (Mar 15, 2021)

hyfire said:


> Im not an expert at this stuff, but maybe someone else can help with their input. However it looks like the dhw pump will get no air seperation effect if the oil is running or wood boiler running . Also you will be charging the tanks with no air seperator, based on the drawing.



I'm no expert either but dont think separation at each pump is needed. Just need some preferably at system high points that have a shot of horizontal to them long enough to promote said separation.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 15, 2021)

maple1 said:


> I'm no expert either but dont think separation at each pump is needed. Just need some preferably at system high points that have a shot of horizontal to them long enough to promote said separation.


Yes that my understanding as well. Guess you cant have too many but these thing are pricy. I have to keep referring back to my old system where all i had was one air scoop and one auto vent and i never ever had an issue with air. Now with that said the new system will have alot more volume so understandably i should have at least one separation device, and from what i can tell the Caleffi Discal is a pretty good performer.


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## maple1 (Mar 15, 2021)

Newfiestang said:


> Yes that my understanding as well. Guess you cant have too many but these thing are pricy. I have to keep referring back to my old system where all i had was one air scoop and one auto vent and i never ever had an issue with air. Now with that said the new system will have alot more volume so understandably i should have at least one separation device, and from what i can tell the Caleffi Discal is a pretty good performer.



I think there is some of this stuff you don't have to be super strict with, doing what we're doing. One thing I didn't pay much attention to is the pumping away thing as applied to my boiler circ. I tied expansion in upstream of my load circ. Which is a ways away from my boiler circ. Then there are other subtle things that might end up playing a part later that you didn't anticipate. Like piping less restriction in the path between your load circ and storage than load circ and boiler, to prevent ghost flow through boiler when heating from storage. If one is just T'ing things together and not using 3 way valves.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 15, 2021)

maple1 said:


> I think there is some of this stuff you don't have to be super strict with, doing what we're doing. One thing I didn't pay much attention to is the pumping away thing as applied to my boiler circ. I tied expansion in upstream of my load circ. Which is a ways away from my boiler circ. Then there are other subtle things that might end up playing a part later that you didn't anticipate. Like piping less restriction in the path between your load circ and storage than load circ and boiler, to prevent ghost flow through boiler when heating from storage. If one is just T'ing things together and not using 3 way valves.


Yes i did read a fair bit on the pump away strategy and i think i have that covered as my expansion tank will be piped in pretty close to the suction side of the heating circ.

As for the ghost flow through boiler when heating from storage, I can kind of see some ghost flow there, how much i dont know. The path through storage should have less head (resistance) since the path through boiler will have to pass through the load circ and  Caleffi quicksetter flow meter. To say there will be zero flow through there is unknow.


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## hyfire (Mar 16, 2021)

Buy them on ebay they are cheaper. I would put an extra one in really closer to wood boiler exit. Your spending 18 -20 k whats another $100


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## chew72 (Mar 18, 2021)

Hang on do you have enough clearance to clean the ash out from the bottom of the froling? It's the Long Rod with a Scraper on the end. If you needed to you could scooch the oil boiler forward enough to clear as an option.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 18, 2021)

chew72 said:


> Hang on do you have enough clearance to clean the ash out from the bottom of the froling? It's the Long Rod with a Scraper on the end. If you needed to you could scooch the oil boiler forward enough to clear as an option.


Yes just enough but I have an ash vacuum so likely will be using that anyway, lots of room for that. I think i measured that i will have 22" on the right side when looking at front of boiler. Good eye all the same.


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## chew72 (Mar 18, 2021)

How is the 3 way valve Froling/oil controlled? What are it's switching conditions.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 18, 2021)

chew72 said:


> How is the 3 way valve Froling/oil controlled? What are it's switching conditions.


Basically once the Froling and storage drop below programmed setpoints in the Froling software the 3 way valve will switch position and open return water flow through oil boiler. For switching back it will close path to oil once Froling reaches setpoint programmed but storage can still be below setpoint. At lease thats the way i understand it. 

The software has many adjustable parameters and i dont even fully understand all functions yet. Once i get everything connected and the boiler is ready to be fired for first time the guys at Biothermic here in Canada will call and do a full over the phone commissioning procedure, so it will get sorted then.


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## hyfire (Mar 20, 2021)

You need to have a 3 way valve also of some sort or something to allow the load to be used 1st as the tanks are cold on start up, so the load gets priority.


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## salecker (Mar 21, 2021)

On my system i have the feed to my HX before my tanks.It has a pump that pulls from the main feed to storage,runs through my HX then returns to the feed coming from the bottom of storage.
 I works good,i can watch the temps on startup,it takes over 1/2 hour before any BTU's start getting stored,as the boiler comes up to temp and the near boiler pump stops the temps going to the load(house) keep rising till the house part of the system comes back up to temp,then you see excess BTU's start to accumulate in storage.Having the return from the HX go back to the boiler as apposed to storage helps a lot in keeping the boiler temps in the higher range.
 When there is no fire a aquastat on the feed to the HX shuts off that pump to the HX and turns on my oil backup boiler.


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## maple1 (Mar 21, 2021)

hyfire said:


> You need to have a 3 way valve also of some sort or something to allow the load to be used 1st as the tanks are cold on start up, so the load gets priority.



Not a concern if your loads pull from top of storage. That's where the hot from the boiler will go as soon as it puts it out.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 22, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Not a concern if your loads pull from top of storage. That's where the hot from the boiler will go as soon as it puts it out.


Thats what i thought as well.


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## Newfiestang (Mar 22, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Not a concern if your loads pull from top of storage. That's where the hot from the boiler will go as soon as it puts it out.


And until both wood boiler and storage have reached setpoints programmed in Froling the system is still on oil as well.

But i like the different viewpoints, it makes me think towards potential problems with the system, thats what this is all about.

I do think i will put a zone valve in on the DHW piping somewhere to minimize the ghost flow there as i can see this as a definite possibility. Right now my simple fix for this is to use a 120VAC zone valve so I can have it open or close with the DHW circulator which is power and controlled by the Froling. Plan would be to have it located very close to pump for ease of wiring from a close by junction box supplying both.

Does this sound ok.


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## hyfire (Mar 22, 2021)

maple1 said:


> Not a concern if your loads pull from top of storage. That's where the hot from the boiler will go as soon as it puts it out.


So if the tanks are cold and the wood  boiler kicks in the way he has it piped i the load won't  pull from the cooler  tank and the boiler feed at the same time and mix the temp in anyway? I cant see it happening this way.


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## chew72 (Mar 23, 2021)

It depends on flow. From cold my tanks are at 80F so my boiler is putting out 2.5 to 3 gpm of 160F hot water. The typical cold temp of my storage is 110F so that's more like 5gpm of 160F But yes if he is using more water than what the boiler can supply cold storage water will mix.


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## maple1 (Mar 23, 2021)

hyfire said:


> So if the tanks are cold and the wood  boiler kicks in the way he has it piped i the load won't  pull from the cooler  tank and the boiler feed at the same time and mix the temp in anyway? I cant see it happening this way.



Not going back to look. My loading unit (boiler circ) pumps faster than my load circ. So no, not a concern in my simple and well working system. Honestly I see a lot of over complications in some setups. Or they are in my mind. Not saying that is the case here - too lazy right now to go look and I'm barely awake.


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## hyfire (Mar 24, 2021)

I guess it all depends on flow rates like you said, here is a nice article on some 2 pipe setups and some rules to look at for piping.
https://www.pmmag.com/articles/100544-the-finer-points-of-applying-a-2-pipe-buffer-tank


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## hyfire (Mar 25, 2021)

hyfire said:


> I guess it all depends on flow rates like you said, here is a nice article on some 2 pipe setups and some rules to look at for piping.
> https://www.pmmag.com/articles/100544-the-finer-points-of-applying-a-2-pipe-buffer-tank


I would say to use a 1.5" header at the tank connections.


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## chew72 (Apr 7, 2021)

In case your interested in what the profile of the S30 to 500 gallons of storage looks like with almost no load. We're out of the cold days here now so it's not very helpful on the load side. The little spikes at the end seem to be the unit shutting down, and the spike is the circ kicking on for 5min due to the heat from the coal bed.


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## hyfire (Apr 7, 2021)

What kind of software is that, i will have multiple tanks as well might be a good idea to have info like that.


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## chew72 (Apr 8, 2021)

It's a weintek HMI combined with an Allen-Bradley, Micro 800 series PLC. If you can understand ladder logic and have a bit of electrical experience it's certainly achievable.

Having burned this winter to me the minimum amount of information I would like to have is knowing the temperature of the next 500 gallons available to the boiler. In the case of a single 500 gallon tank that would just be the top and bottom temp. My 1000 gallons that would be top bottom and middle. That allows me to ballpark whether I load the boiler full again or not. 

The midpoint temperature on the top half is helpful for knowing do I make a fire when I get home or can I wait till after supper and the kids are in bed. The bottom midpoint temperature doesn't provide as much useful information. It's more for balance and Feng shui. 

If you'd like any more detail or had questions maybe post to my install thread Here to keep me from taking over this one


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## Newfiestang (Aug 16, 2021)

Well been a while but construction has started. The old unit and all piping is removed and so far the Turbomax DHW boiler and main pipe runs around the boiler room are ran. So far so good. Next is the storage tanks and their piping. Will post more pics as the project progresses. 

Also attached below is a few screeshots of the latest 3D Cad dwgs. This is now exactly how the system will be piped. Pretty similar to the original dwgs earlier in this thread but i did make some additions to prevent potential ghost flows to the DHW boiler as well as through the Froling. To prevent those ghost flows i added Caleffi differential pressure reducing valves which are adjustable.


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## Newfiestang (Aug 16, 2021)

Latest 3D Cad dwg


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## Newfiestang (Jan 29, 2022)

System fired for apprx 3 months now, very happy with the results so far, working like a charm and getting approx 12 to 20 hrs from a fully charged buffer. Im very pleased with those results considering its only 500 gal and im coming from an old boiler with no storage. Short video below of the gasification three mins after a light.

Thanks for all that helped and for those looking for any info or help I guess i can now add some input considering my install was a success from the first light. Only thing i am adding is a Tekmar 150 to help with an overheat situation. That will be done in next few weeks.


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## Smoothride (Jan 30, 2022)

Newfiestang,
 What is your overheating issue? Do you have a dump zone for excess boiler heat? Are you trying to force a zone to come on to remove excess boiler heat?


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## Newfiestang (Jan 30, 2022)

Smoothride said:


> Newfiestang,
> What is your overheating issue? Do you have a dump zone for excess boiler heat? Are you trying to force a zone to come on to remove excess boiler heat?


Its odd but the S3 alone dont have controls to work with a dump zone.

This is not a common issue for me but occasionally with buffer tanks fully charged and some fire left, the boiler has nowhere to use its heat output if house not calling thus the boiler heats up quickly and goes into protection mode. My plan now is use a Tekmar 150 and have its dry contacts wired in parallel with my my basement zone thermostat to initiate starting of the heating circ and open that zone valve at the set temperature programmed in the Tekmar. This was always the plan but only now getting to installing it.

Also, I still dont have the over temp battery (copper coil) hooked up yet that comes standard with the Froling S3. This is a last defense device that is basically a mechanical thermostatic valve installed on the inlet to the coil designed to open on boiler high temp and allow town/well water to flow through boiler to cool it.


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## hyfire (Jan 30, 2022)

How about some fin tube pipes and a n.c solenoid above the boiler. If you have a power failure you could be in real trouble.


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## Newfiestang (Jan 30, 2022)

hyfire said:


> How about some fin tube pipes and a n.c solenoid above the boiler. If you have a power failure you could be in real trouble.


Yes that would work as well, had that setup with my old system but i rather have the heat dump in my basement. I have a backup generator for power loss so my main concern now is overheating solution.


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## Bad LP (Jan 30, 2022)

Newfiestang said:


> Yes that would work as well, had that setup with my old system but i rather have the heat dump in my basement. I have a backup generator for power loss so my main concern now is overheating solution.


That’s what I did. Powered heat dump in the basement on a Modine and a loss of power heat dump into a bunch of floor joist mounted 3/4 fin. 
I was working on the system when the power went out. Watched right from the drivers seat the full safety thing work and the the auto standby generator start and the boiler went back into normal.


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## Smoothride (Jan 31, 2022)

Newfiestang,
I used an aqua stat off one of the boiler jacket wells in the left rear top of the boiler. I have that hooked to a simple zone controller and it is piped in parallel with my no power dump zone. the supply off the top of the boiler has an Automag and then it goes to the radiators. The return has a split return near the bottom of the boiler with one leg having a circulator pump for the over heat and the other leg has an Automag that opens for thermo syphon in the event of a power outage.


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