# DS Stoves 200-10 Ecomiser furnace



## Lcback (May 27, 2016)

I'm thinking about buying this furnace this year. 
It seems to have everything I want. 
74% epa rated efficiency, can burn wood, Bit, and Anthricite coal. Full shaker grates, full size ash pan, and the manual says it can be burned in the event of a power outage. 

I can't find much about this furnace online besides it's specs. I have emailed the company about some questions, they responded that they would get me all the answers on Monday. 

I'm wondering if any of you are familiar with it. Or can take a look for me and give me your opinion.
http://woodstoves.net/ds-stoves/coal/ds-machine-stoves-200-10-ecomiser-wood-and-coal-furnace.htm


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## Lake Girl (May 27, 2016)

Your local building inspector and homeowner's insurance may give you grief as it is not certified warnock hersey or UL.  While it is stated that it meets appropriate safety listings, it is not certified by a third party testing facility that it does...


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## Lcback (May 27, 2016)

Hmm website says it is ul listed. Is there something else?

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## Lake Girl (May 27, 2016)

The specs don't mention that and the owner manual only says it meets the standard.  There would be a metal plate on the back if it is certified.  Have you seen it in person or just website shopping?

There is a metal tag on the back but the picture doesn't show what info it contains...


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## Lcback (May 27, 2016)

So far just web. There is a dealer hour and a half from me. I can call him and ask him to look

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## Lake Girl (May 27, 2016)

No match found here using variations of D. S. Machine Shop or Stoves
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/...ce=ulcom&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=database


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## Lake Girl (May 27, 2016)

Warnock Hersey Intertek is the usual certification for wood/pellet stoves/furnaces.  They don't appear to have a searchable listing though...
http://www.intertek.com/certification/

Intertek listings ... not there either
https://whdirectory.intertek.com/Pages/DLP_Search.aspx


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## bholler (May 27, 2016)

Most ds stoves are not listed but a couple are I do not know about that one.  I will say from what I have seen there build quality is very good but their design and engineering is pretty lacking.  I work on several of their stoves and every one has some pretty major design flaws.  I cannot comment on this particular one because I have yet to work on one but I would be cautions.


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## Lcback (May 27, 2016)

bholler said:


> Most ds stoves are not listed but a couple are I do not know about that one.  I will say from what I have seen there build quality is very good but their design and engineering is pretty lacking.  I work on several of their stoves and every one has some pretty major design flaws.  I cannot comment on this particular one because I have yet to work on one but I would be cautions.


Have you worked on any of the kozy long models? I understand this Ecomiser is one of the smaller kozy king with all the electronics taken off.

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## bholler (May 27, 2016)

Lcback said:


> Have you worked on any of the kozy long models? I understand this Ecomiser is one of the smaller kozy king with all the electronics taken off.


No we really don't work on allot of furnaces most of our customers use regular freestanding wood stoves.  Sorry I cant help you with furnace selection very much.   My real expertise is on the chimney side of the install.


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## Lcback (May 28, 2016)

Playing phone tag with the dealer. He says it is indeed ul listed. And the air is all manual. I don't think he understood what bi metallic switch I was talking about. But before I buy one I will have to drive up and take a look.
Still haven't heard of there maximum draft to have.

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## Lake Girl (May 29, 2016)

Lcback said:


> He says it is indeed ul listed.


Under what name?


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## Lcback (May 29, 2016)

He didn't say. I'll call him Tuesday and ask him to check. Because I can't find them on the UL
He did say many of there stoves are ul listed, so it's probably a name we don't know about. 

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## Lcback (May 31, 2016)

Okay,
I asked the DS stove dealer about air intake, he said it was all manual. And that was all he knew. Then I got an email from woodstoves.net answering some of my questions. They said the air was controlled with a Bi-metallic spring on the right side of the stove.
Im not sure how you are supposed to regulate the air. But I guess a combination of the 4 door spinners and the bi-metallic spring setting?

She said there is not Barometric damper needed for burning wood, but they recommend one for coal, set to .25WC
I am still trying to find out about UL listing. The dealer message was simply that it was indeed listed, not who its under. So I replied to my woodstoves.net rep asking them if they could provide that. 
I still like the looks of this unit, Wood and anthracite at 75% is pretty darn awesome. Also made in my home state of PA. But i want to get everything straight before I pay.


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## bholler (May 31, 2016)

They are right you do not want a baro damper for wood unless absolutely necessary.  I would seriously doubt their claim of 75% efficiency for wood though.


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## Lcback (May 31, 2016)

Well it doesn't seem to matter. If it's under $3,000 someone says something is wrong. Last one said that a chamber without secondary air wouldn't. This one has a both and you doubt it. Its epa certified that's good enough for me. WhY do you think they are lying?
I can't spend anymore then 2,000 and I'm not buying something that can't burn coal at all. That option is important to me. 

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## bholler (May 31, 2016)

Lcback said:


> WhY do you think they are lying?


Because I have worked on many of their stoves and their engineering is absolutely horrible.  I think it is probably a decent hand fired coal furnace it is the wood part that I question.  They basically took an old coal furnace design and slapped a  couple secondary burn tubes in there that from what I can see have no where near enough volume to burn off the amount of smoke that a firebox that size will produce.   Honestly there are very few wood coal combos that do both well at all.  Most are decent coal stoves but crap wood stoves.


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## Lcback (May 31, 2016)

Interesting. The coal guys say the same thing but opposite. As far as the good wood stoves make crap coal stoves. What you want is a good coal stove that can burn wood. Thats what they say. Hmmmm guess I gotta take a chance on one way

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## bholler (May 31, 2016)

Yes a good wood stove will make a crap coal stove.  And a good coal stove will make a crap wood stove.  The two fuels just need very different things to burn correctly so combo units in most cases don't work well.


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## maple1 (May 31, 2016)

EPA certified?

I am quite skeptical of that.


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## Lcback (May 31, 2016)

maple1 said:


> EPA certified?
> 
> I am quite skeptical of that.


Well I'm pretty confident that to advertise and number they have to be officially tested. Unless they specify exempt. At least that's what the Shelter customer rep said when I asked why they don't have a number for theirs. He said it's cheapest to just apply for exemption.
Ds does not hide there numbers. Look at the kozy king models for example.

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## bholler (May 31, 2016)

Lcback said:


> Well I'm pretty confident that to advertise and number they have to be officially tested. Unless they specify exempt. At least that's what the Shelter customer rep said when I asked why they don't have a number for theirs. He said it's cheapest to just apply for exemption.


I can not find a single thing in any of their literature that claims an epa certification.  Which means that that number could have come from any sort of testing procedure.


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## maple1 (Jun 1, 2016)

My thoughts also. After all the months of looking for a new wood burner 4-5 years ago when I was in the same decision making place (and what has happened since w.r.t. EPA 'stuff'), I think any other manufacturer with an actual EPA Certification or a 'genuine' efficiency testing number would also be posting the actual paperwork from those or parts of it - they are not to be taken lightly, are hard to get,  and would be something to be quite proud of. Even if the DS is a great working unit, I am thinking that part of their PR are sales gimmicks. IMO. If they can't provide copies of EPA Certification or efficiency testing results to a prospective customer, as opposed to just posting a number, I see red flags.

Also, efficiency testing has nothing to do with EPA testing or certification - as far as I know. Which one could say is another byproduct of 'fuzzy' PR - posting a % efficiency number is misleading to some who then think that is a connection to EPA stuff.


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## Lcback (Jun 1, 2016)

So yesterday I asked the rep about it stating it is UL listed, and that I couldn't find it on the ul database. She responded saying "The furnace is listed to UL1482 standards. What type of list are you looking at?" 
Does that make sense to you guys?

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## Lake Girl (Jun 1, 2016)

Built to the UL standard but not certified?  If there is no certification associated with the stove, may cause grief with inspection and insurance...

Need to see certification documents - most stove manufacturers include that documentation in the manual and I didn't see it in their manuals.

Not trying to cause you extra grief, just trying to save you from making a costly mistake...


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## Lake Girl (Jun 1, 2016)

These are likely more money but it is an example of the UL tested/listed:
http://www.yukon-eagle.com/

Search under Alpha American on the UL listing and they show up...  Alpha American is the name in the manual used for warranty info.


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## Lcback (Jun 1, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Built to the UL standard but not certified?  If there is no certification associated with the stove, may cause grief with inspection and insurance...
> 
> Need to see certification documents - most stove manufacturers include that documentation in the manual and I didn't see it in their manuals.
> 
> Not trying to cause you extra grief, just trying to save you from making a costly mistake...



No I appreciate your suggestions, I need to make sure this is all in order. I cant buy two furnaces. God knows how hard its been to get money for this one. I really like this furnace, I really like buying something from a shop in PA, which is why Im still trying to make sure its all good. Other wise I would have tossed it in the trash option like the Hot blast. 
I just read the "brochure" not the manual that looks like it was scanned in 1995. it says 
Safety tested and labeled to U.L. Standards by
Guardian Fire Testing to UL 391, ETLM78-1,
CAN/CSA B-366.1

Is that a step in the right direction or still just a worthless statement?


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## Lcback (Jun 1, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Built to the UL standard but not certified?  If there is no certification associated with the stove, may cause grief with inspection and insurance...
> 
> Need to see certification documents - most stove manufacturers include that documentation in the manual and I didn't see it in their manuals.
> 
> Not trying to cause you extra grief, just trying to save you from making a costly mistake...



No I appreciate your suggestions, I need to make sure this is all in order. I cant buy two furnaces. God knows how hard its been to get money for this one. I really like this furnace, I really like buying something from a shop in PA, which is why Im still trying to make sure its all good. Other wise I would have tossed it in the trash option like the Hot blast.
I just read the "brochure" not the manual that looks like it was scanned in 1995. it says
Safety tested and labeled to U.L. Standards by
Guardian Fire Testing to UL 391, ETLM78-1,
CAN/CSA B-366.1

Is that a step in the right direction or still just a worthless statement?

Editing to add.
http://www.firetesting.com/products.htm  scroll down, it is listed in alphabetical order D.S. Machine


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## Lake Girl (Jun 1, 2016)

Guardian Fire Testing Laboratories is ASTM  recognized testing lab ... just not one that has name recognition like intertek.
http://www.astm.org/LABS/filtrexx40.cgi?+-P+ACCTNO+122550+template.frm

Would be good to speak with current owners to sort out their ease of use and burn characteristics


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## Lcback (Jun 1, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Guardian Fire Testing Laboratories is ASTM  recognized testing lab ... just not one that has name recognition like intertek.
> http://www.astm.org/LABS/filtrexx40.cgi?+-P+ACCTNO+122550+template.frm
> 
> Would be good to speak with current owners to sort out their ease of use and burn characteristics



okay, so you would consider that good to go as far as UL listing?


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## maple1 (Jun 1, 2016)

Following that link doesn't actually get you to where they say exactly what models were tested - that I could find. You might have to follow up by asking for the test report to know for sure. Likely the simple bottom line is that if the actual furnace has an actual UL sticker on it, you should be OK insurance-wise.

That likely still won't address possible concerns about quality & how good it works though - don't seem to be getting a whole lot of feedback on that here.

EDIT: OK, I think I see 'your' model listed on that site, looking around a bit more. I would still verify the furnace has a sticker if you buy - that's the simple thing your insurance person would want to see.


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## Lcback (Jun 1, 2016)

Okay thanks. When I buy I will make sure it is there. 
I was hoping to find someone that had one. 
It was suggested to me on the coal forum, but it was one a guy was going to purchase and got injured list his job and so he has been making a US stove model work. 
So all I have in that regard is someone who looked liked it but no burn experience. I hope to find someone before I make my trip to check it out. This forum I thought was my best bet. But maybe I can get some refrenxes from the dealer or straight up call DS stove

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## Lake Girl (Jun 1, 2016)

Lcback said:


> okay, so you would consider that good to go as far as UL listing?


Would likely request an actual copy of the report so you can submit to interested agencies.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 1, 2016)

Do a search using the box top right ... a few discussions but nothing in depth or very long service performance
http://nepacrossroads.com/  Has a few discussions and discussion of some problems that may give some insight into the stoves wood/coal use.

Keep us posted.  If you install, pics or it didn't happen


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## brenndatomu (Jun 1, 2016)

Speaking of Yukon Eagle, there was a Yukon rep that used to post on that "other" site and I seem to remember him having an ongoing (and sometimes heated) argument with some of the other industry guys about UL listings and efficiency ratings (EPA also). IIRC, it went something like this, many of the wood burners out there say something about UL because "they" claim that "they" build their stoves to UL, but when pushed, it turns out they use a UL listing that is just a general spec for heaters...not specific for their wood burners, and not specifically "certified" by UL for their products, which is expensive to do, so not many wood burner manufacturers actually do it. Any manufacturer that is _actually_ UL certified (and EPA for that matter) will proudly advertise it _and_ make available copies of the test or cert like Yukon does (and like Kuuma does with their emissions test)
If you are getting the run-around on the EPA or UL #s...probably not actually certified.
I had interest in the Kuumas a year or two ago and I contacted them about talking to some of their existing customers...they sent me a list of 5 or 6 people that were close to me along with their contact info so I could arrange to go talk to them and maybe see one in action. Now that is customer service...I would think that DS is a small enough company to be able/willing to do likewise


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## bholler (Jun 1, 2016)

brenndatomu said:


> I would think that DS is a small enough company to be able/willing to do likewise


Every time I talk to the guys from ds I get the run around about just about everything.  That and their poor engineering is why  I would never recommend their stoves.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 1, 2016)

bholler said:


> Every time I talk to the guys from ds I get the run around about just about everything.  That and their poor engineering is why  I would never recommend their stoves.


Hmm, yeah that's kinda disappointing to hear...


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## Lake Girl (Jun 1, 2016)

Looked at the Guardian Testing site again, only two listings for DS machine.  Specific stoves, general process, what is certified?


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## maple1 (Jun 1, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Looked at the Guardian Testing site again, only two listings for DS machine.  Specific stoves, general process, what is certified?


Did you scroll way down that page? Has models noted.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 1, 2016)

http://www.firetesting.com/appliances.html
Solid fuel burning appliances ...


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## begreen (Jun 1, 2016)

bholler said:


> I can not find a single thing in any of their literature that claims an epa certification.  Which means that that number could have come from any sort of testing procedure.


Not finding any DS product on EPA certified stove listings either.


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## maple1 (Jun 2, 2016)

You can see certain models listed scrolling down this page:

http://www.firetesting.com/products.htm


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## Lcback (Jun 2, 2016)

maple1 said:


> You can see certain models listed scrolling down this page:
> 
> http://www.firetesting.com/products.htm


Yeah they lost the ecomiser and a kozy king model. I didn't notice any stoves. But I don't want a stove.

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## stratton (Jun 4, 2016)

LC, Get on line and contact Messick stoves. I think the guys name is Larry. Top notch no BS.


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## Lcback (Jun 4, 2016)

stratton said:


> LC, Get on line and contact Messick stoves. I think the guys name is Larry. Top notch no BS.


Thanks I appreciate that. The dealer I have been in contact with admits that he just started selling the furnces in January. So I'll give messick a call.

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## lexybird (Jun 7, 2016)

Not sure of the certifications or specifically what listings they qualify for  but I have a stove company fairly local to me in Ohio that specializes in these ds stoves and many others  . I have looked all the models ds sells over and I can say these are extremly well built and look like they'd be a good option for some . The kozy King and ecomiser have reburn technology and the welds look great .the material is thick heavy duty steel . Nothing skimpy or cheesy about these heaters . I'm told these are under rated for the sq feet listed  and I have no reason to doubt that being they have lots of firebox space and heat exchange area .i opted for a max caddy by psg that they sell but the kozy King 300 made it a tough choice .i am very familiar with EPA forced air heaters so that was the direction is was leaning toward being I'm gone 12+ hours a day ,I was looking at efficiency predominantly on this purchase but I'm sure the other furnaces ds sells would have been fine too . I like the simplicity and heavy construction that the Amish use when making these stoves and ability to burn coal if needed . My max caddy is awesome and for me the choice worked out. Cherry valley stoves in Andover Ohio is the shop I'm referring to .they sell tons of ds stuff to the local Amish communities and would be a good place to call and get prices and info


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## bholler (Jun 7, 2016)

lexybird said:


> Not sure of the certifications but I have a stove company fairly local to me that specializes in these ds stoves . I have looked all the models over and I can say these are extremly well built and look like they'd be a good option . The kozy King and ecomiser have reburn technology and the welds look great .the material is thick heavy duty steel . Nothing skimpy about these heaters . I'm told these are under rated for the sq feet listed .


Yes like I have said they are well built that is not in question.  It is their engineering that is and by the looks of their secondary combustion system on the Kozy King it is lacking quite a bit on that model as well.  And without actual certified efficiency testing numbers which they do not list I have to seriously doubt their numbers.


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## Lcback (Jun 7, 2016)

lexybird said:


> Not sure of the certifications or specifically what listings they qualify for  but I have a stove company fairly local to me in Ohio that specializes in these ds stoves and many others  . I have looked all the models ds sells over and I can say these are extremly well built and look like they'd be a good option for some . The kozy King and ecomiser have reburn technology and the welds look great .the material is thick heavy duty steel . Nothing skimpy or cheesy about these heaters . I'm told these are under rated for the sq feet listed  and I have no reason to doubt that being they have lots of firebox space and heat exchange area .i opted for a max caddy by psg that they sell but the kozy King 300 made it a tough choice .i am very familiar with EPA forced air heaters so that was the direction is was leaning toward being I'm gone 12+ hours a day ,I was looking at efficiency predominantly on this purchase but I'm sure the other furnaces ds sells would have been fine too . I like the simplicity and heavy construction that the Amish use when making these stoves and ability to burn coal if needed . My max caddy is awesome and for me the choice worked out. Cherry valley stoves in Andover Ohio is the shop I'm referring to .they sell tons of ds stuff to the local Amish communities and would be a good place to call and get prices and info


Thanks for your input. Glad to hear from someone who has at least seen the furnace. I'm glad to hear the build quality. Atleast puts it above the other wood coal in my budget. Basically us stove and daka options. 
The efficiency may very well be a stretch. But it does have some reburn. And that's a big plus over the us stove, daka, shelter. Not to mention burning with no power. 
I'm pretty set right now that this will be the furnace soon. 
This lets me rest easy about wood scrounging. And if I enjoy burning coal like others I know. I can do as I please. I like options. Even at the expense of some top end specs. 

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## bholler (Jun 7, 2016)

Lcback said:


> But it does have some reburn. And that's a big plus over the us stove, daka, shelter.


Only if it works.  But by looking at it I think it will be a fairly good coal stove so at least you would have that.  And it will burn wood just not as well as a furnace that is designed better.  And yeah you may need to clean more often


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## maple1 (Jun 8, 2016)

*But it does have some reburn. *

Don't think I would heavily count on that aspect.


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## Krinkle (Jul 19, 2016)

Lcback said:


> Interesting. The coal guys say the same thing but opposite. As far as the good wood stoves make crap coal stoves. What you want is a good coal stove that can burn wood. Thats what they say. Hmmmm guess I gotta take a chance on one way
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


Does that include the Harman Stove System Solid Fuel (wood, coal) Fired Appliance for Residential Use?  I thought it had a great reputation.  Is that true?


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## Lcback (Jul 20, 2016)

Krinkle said:


> Does that include the Harman Stove System Solid Fuel (wood, coal) Fired Appliance for Residential Use?  I thought it had a great reputation.  Is that true?


I am really not sure. I'm not familiar with stoves. 


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## Lcback (Jul 20, 2016)

Just to update. I went and looked at a dealer 45minutes from my house. I out a down payment on one. And it will be delivered next Thursday at my house. 
They seem incredibly well built, they suggest you put a plate over the shaker grates for burning wood. That seems to be consistent with the newer drolet furnaces with solid bottoms. I suppose I could lay fire brick on the grate instead of the steel plate. And remove them for burning coal. 

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## Krinkle (Jul 20, 2016)

Many thanks for that good information.  The Harman Stove System in my daughter's house here in Vermont has worked exceptionally well heating her entire house.  But her two kids are now off to college, and since she is there by herself, I do not want her toting in the wood through this coming winter.  And that means I'll now be selling it for her, and your very positive response will indeed be helpful, without my citing you directly in any way.  So once again, many thanks. With one final question that just occurred to me.  The SF 260 she has is going to be quite difficult to move.  Do you have any idea at all about what it might weigh?


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## Hebner (Jul 27, 2016)

Lcback said:


> Just to update. I went and looked at a dealer 45minutes from my house. I out a down payment on one. And it will be delivered next Thursday at my house.
> They seem incredibly well built, they suggest you put a plate over the shaker grates for burning wood. That seems to be consistent with the newer drolet furnaces with solid bottoms. I suppose I could lay fire brick on the grate instead of the steel plate. And remove them for burning coal.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


I'm a little late to the party....but I have had the ecomiser since fall of 2012 and love it. The steel plate works very well. I tried the firebrick one year but they would move around too much when shaking the ash grate. My model is older and does not have the bimetal draft. I pretty much keep my draft spinners on the same setting all winter except when it's 30 below. Located in NW PA and bought mine from Cherry Stoves in OH. Very well built and as simple as it gets.


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## Lcback (Jul 27, 2016)

Hebner said:


> I'm a little late to the party....but I have had the ecomiser since fall of 2012 and love it. The steel plate works very well. I tried the firebrick one year but they would move around too much when shaking the ash grate. My model is older and does not have the bimetal draft. I pretty much keep my draft spinners on the same setting all winter except when it's 30 below. Located in NW PA and bought mine from Cherry Stoves in OH. Very well built and as simple as it gets.


I'm happy to hear that. Really helps me ease my mind. 
Now I have a list of questions for you. 
Are you burning wood or coal?
What do you notice for burn times?
 Any issues you have had?


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## Hebner (Jul 28, 2016)

Lcback said:


> I'm happy to hear that. Really helps me ease my mind.
> Now I have a list of questions for you.
> Are you burning wood or coal?
> What do you notice for burn times?
> Any issues you have had?


I am burning wood, burnt coal part of one season when I got behind on wood a couple years ago. No problem burning coal but coal produces
a lot more ash. Empty the ash pan everyday with coal as opposed to 1X per week for wood.

If by burn times you mean how long before you have to do a complete restart, then I can get 8 hours if I fill it just below the burn tubes. If I need to get longer time, then I add 2-3 EZ bricks (compressed saw dust bricks).

No issues except it will heat us out of the house when burning around the clock. Unless it's real cold out I let it burn out and do a restart when the house starts to cool down. I use the "top down method" to start my fires and it works great. Wish I had  known about that method 30 years ago. If you are going to burn wood I would do a google search of top down fire lighting method. It seems backwards from traditional method but it works with a lot less dicking around.

Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.


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