# TV Antennas



## velvetfoot (Oct 24, 2007)

Any advice?  It seems to be a dying art here with the proliferation of cable and satellite.
I get fairly good reception (this is over the air hdtv) with amplified rabbit ears.
The little woman has noted the unattractiveness of said ears so I relocated them to the basement.
There is still surprisingly good reception down there, channeling the signal through the coax wiring that came with the house.
A couple of channels are sketchy, and the upstairs TV is sketchy on maybe one more.
Did I mention I can't get cable even if I wanted to?
To put an antenna on the top of my metal-roofed house on the chimney (pipe chase), just seems quite tedious to install, dangerous, unsightly, lightning attractor (on a hill),  etc.
I've hooked up an exterior antenna along with an in-line amplifier, in the basement and it seems to be better-I will reconnect and see how that works upstairs tonight.
A small uni-directional uhf antenna is probably out since, according to www.antennaweb.org , two of my digital stations use vhf.
We're up on a hill, so we get pretty good line of sight to 6 stations that are 26 miles away (yellow zone on above web site.), all at the same compass heading.
An attic installation is possible, but there is the metal roof and then the routing of the wiring.
Maybe I'll just go back to two amplified rabbit ears.
Any general tips, suggestions, new stuff, etc?
Thanks.


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## thephotohound (Oct 24, 2007)

Velvet -

I have looked into this myself, but have determined that I am too far away (43 miles) to ensure a strong signal. Plus, for all of the reasons you mentioned (hill, unsightly, wind, etc), I have decided to put this idea away for a while. I was just looking to do it to save money!


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## velvetfoot (Oct 24, 2007)

We are pretty content with just the free stations, especially since they come over in digital and HD.
It'd be nice if we could get broadband though (no dsl and 2-way satellite not that good).
Might be able to get verizon wireless broadband though I'm not sure how good that is and it's not cheap either.


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## keyman512us (Oct 26, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Any advice?  It seems to be a dying art here with the proliferation of cable and satellite.
> I get fairly good reception (this is over the air hdtv) with amplified rabbit ears.
> The little woman has noted the unattractiveness of said ears so I relocated them to the basement.
> There is still surprisingly good reception down there, channeling the signal through the coax wiring that came with the house.
> ...



Vel....

Whatever you decide to do...don't spend too much $$$...because:

....In January (10th I believe is the 'scheduled date') 2008... The "signal is going 'dark'..." 

Post 9/11 decisions were made at the "federal level" to set a date (January 2008) to allocate the broadcast frequency 'spectrum' for emergency communications... So in a few months "broadcast TV" is ...well...'History'....


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## keyman512us (Oct 26, 2007)

"Update"...

"Feb 17th 2009" is the new date for "Analog shutoff"...

....Whatever "The Feds end up doing (eventually)" just keep in mind 'they' are planning to "shut it down":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_television_in_the_United_States


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## velvetfoot (Oct 26, 2007)

Both my tv's receive digital hd over the air signals.
Great picture, and for free, by the way.

I was wondering why that long length of coax didn't bring in a signal-I thought it was the length.
I used a multimeter on it and disovered no continuity in the shield wire-duh.
I used a twist-on connector rather than crimp.
Bought a crimp tool last night and will try again.
The Radio Shack in-line amplifier seems to work okay.
I have an outdoor antenna with amplifier in the basement and it pulls in all the digital stations.
I think I'll try mounting the antenna under the deck outside.
The attic is tempting, but it's yucky up there with all the fiberglass and I can't think of a way to stealthfully snake a wire down to the first floor from there.


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## mayhem (Oct 27, 2007)

Basically, the higher the antenna is, the better your chances are of picking up a strong signal.  You need to get that thing out of the basement and up into your attic or mounted on your roof.  The orientation of the antenna plays a major role as well.  Those cross sections aren't different lengths and spaced the way they are because it looks neat...its to help optimize the interception of the signals at the varying points in the broadcast spectrum that is used by television...the length of the rods is intended to allow the accumulation of a precise wavelength, but it only works best when the antenna is oriented properly.  Do a bit of googleing on how to properly orient your antenna to maximize the signal intercept, you may be surprised at the results you get.

In line signal boosters are great, but only when you have captured enough signal to bother boosting...otherwise you're jsut boosting the static.


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## kwburn (Oct 28, 2007)

I'm not going to write a book here but I used to own a satellite tv business and to combat the fact that we did not have our locals in HD on satellite i've installed quite a few off air antenna's to get HD (digital broadcasts) for people.   Most people still have no clue they can get their HD network programming for free with just an antenna as long as your new HDTV has a digital tuner built into it.  The picture is as good or better than any HD channel you will pay for and the sound is digital too, normally full Dolby Digital, so if you have a receiver that supports it the sound is as good as any DVD you can buy.

The antenna advice above is accurate about getting them as far up and outside the house as you can if you really want the best possible reception.  Unless you live in an urban environment with your channels broadcasting from 10 miles or less away then you should really get it outside.  My brother lives in Boston and can get everything with a cheap set of rabbit ears behind his tv.  But just because they are close by, a cheap antenna can actually struggle with too much signal and he does get an occasional dropout.

Most people struggle with antennas because 90% of those sold in stores at the retail level are pure garbage.  The only thing I can compare to in wood stoves is think of if stores only sold Voglezang stoves and you had no idea what else was on the market.  People think thats all there is and when they buy it and it doesnt work they get frustrated and give up.  You NEED to buy a quality antenna people.  Pony up and spend $75-100 depending on your needs and you will be rewarded with years of great reception.  Winegard & Channel Master make good antennas.  Except for a couple exceptions, Radio Shack antennas aren't great (better than anything you will find at Walmart though).

Here's my personal milage breakdown:
0-10 miles to transmitters:  you can probably get away with a quality set of rabbit ears but using a 10-20 mile antenna outside is better
10-20 miles:  this Winegard antenna (get the amplified version) works GREAT, is small, and easy to install.  it picks up both UHF and VHF. you can buy it online.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/sensar.htm
20-40 miles:  you should really get a full sized antenna like the old fashioned ones.  OR if you need to pick up mostly UHF in the same general direction you can get a UHF bay antenna which is more like a flat panel.

All my channels are about 35 miles away from me.  I am able to get every major network but I needed to use this antenna to do it.  Luckily this antenna is able to pick up a little VHF as well so I'm able to grab my local ABC which is the only VHF channel in my area with it as well.
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/4228.html

I'm not an expert, but if anyone has any questions feel free to PM me and I'd be glad to help.
I love helping people get the most out of their tv!


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## velvetfoot (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks guys.
It's working pretty much okay under the deck.
It's a full size antenna with the amplifier.
I did read some more about channel master and wineguard, but I'm trying to make this work.
The one tv I have has a built in signal meter which helps.
Crimping on those connectors isn't a piece of cake either for me anyway.
I think it's because of all the mylar/foil or whatever layers inside the cable, which seem to act as an insulator.
The crimper I got was less than satisfying.

I'm lucky because all of the digital channels are on or near the same broadcasting antenna, I'm on a hill, and about 25 miles away.
However, a couple of the digital stations are vhf, and I've read they may switch to the analog vhf stations that will be available when analog goes away.
I might try tweaking it some more, but now there are no rabbit ears (which worked pretty well), like adding another amplifier before or instead of all the splitters in the basement that go to the different rooms, and tvs in other rooms can now be plugged into the wall.

I moved the old tv out of the upstairs bedroom over the weekend-man was that heavy and bulky, and it was only a 27".
I wonder if the new lcd sets will last as long though.


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## thephotohound (Oct 31, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> "Update"...
> 
> "Feb 17th 2009" is the new date for "Analog shutoff"...
> 
> ...



Keyman -

If I understand that article correctly, as long as you have a digital tuner, you'll still be able to receive over the air signals. Well, don't (virtually) all TV's manufactured this century have digital tuners built in?


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## velvetfoot (Oct 31, 2007)

No.  It's a newer phenomenon.


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## kwburn (Nov 1, 2007)

by this century you mean since 2000?  definitely not.  just the last few years and for a while manufacturers left them out all together to cut costs i'm sure.  you'll notice now when you look at tv's say on Amazon that there is an obvious disclaimer on anything without a digital tuner.  even DVD recorders have the same warning because very few have them and people just assume they can pump any kind of signal into them like you could with a VCR.


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## ilmbg (Nov 19, 2007)

If your tv is too old- just get a 'box'- it will let you get air signals.   Can you put your antennae in the attic?  It does't have to stand up- it can lay down.  That way  it is not ugly!  I did that in two other houses- worked great.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 19, 2007)

For me, the roof is metal and probably wouldn't help with the signals.
Plus, getting the wire from the attic to the basement is not that easy for me.


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## tradergordo (Nov 19, 2007)

I've been receiving digital/HDTV signals over the air since 1999 (can't believe its been almost 10 years).  Back then, I found a traditional, big old roof mount antenna collecting dust (literally) in some back corner of a home depot store.  Same type of thing you see on a lot of old houses (most not being used anymore I'm sure). I also bought a cheap signal amplifier from radio shack.  It worked perfectly, I was thrilled with high def from the very beginning.  But there was one signal that was spotty, so at some point I decided to try a different antenna.  I believe I bought one recommended on http://www.antennaweb.org/ or some similar site, I already forgot what model it is, but its up on my roof now, I believe it is a channel master.  It works great.  

All of my local digital signals are UHF, so the funny thing is that even with my big old boomer antenna, the only part of the antenna really being used was the very end, small, V-shapped piece.  You should look up what stations are available in your area and if you can get away with a UHF only design, BUT you should be aware that after the analog signals dissappear, some stations might stop broadcasting on UHF and move to the VHF frequencies they were using for analog.  I haven't looked too much into this really.

For what its worth, I am 100% satisfied with FREE digital TV and don't miss the content from or payments to the cable/satellite companies at all!  I get 26 digital channels!


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## velvetfoot (Nov 19, 2007)

What's interesting is that the same "station" is adding more channels.  For instance the, the local pbs station has three digital channels with one being all HD.  HD is great.


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## tradergordo (Nov 19, 2007)

Yea, and ABC/NBC both have a 24/7 weather channel, which is kind of nice to just flip to at any time any get a local weather report whenever you want it.  ABC also has a subchannel that replays their local news - so you can basically watch it whenever you want if you wanted to see it.  Another network (formerly WB) just added a 24/7 sports subchannel - its mostly oddball stuff like dirt bike racing or xtreme sports but kind of interesting.  With PBS the subchannels are a particularly good idea because they have such different viewerships - you can now have Elmo/Sesame Street on at the same time as Nova or the Antique Road Show or Wired Science for example.  Or maybe a spanish sesame street on at the same time as an english one, etc.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 19, 2007)

I'd also like to note that more and more programming is in HD, and HD is great.
We got another one recently to placate Mrs. VF.
The prices have dropped considerably, and apparently they're gonna drop a lot more.
All I see now have built in tuners.


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## ilmbg (Nov 20, 2007)

Guess I am not too picky- if the picture is crisp/clear with an antennae, I sure won't pay to watch tv!  Even though I only get 5 stations, I am not paying. (guess I'm a cheap-o!).


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## velvetfoot (Nov 20, 2007)

The whole point is you don't have to pay monthly for great digital and HD picture.  Sure, it's still just the network, but even a football in HD is much better.  Those 5 stations will look a lot better with a new TV.  You gotta try it.


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## tradergordo (Nov 20, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> The whole point is you don't have to pay monthly for great digital and HD picture.  Sure, it's still just the network, but even a football in HD is much better.  Those 5 stations will look a lot better with a new TV.  You gotta try it.



The other thing some people don't understand is that using an antenna for digital reception does not give you a snowy or ghosting or crappy picture say compared to cable or satellite.  You generally get a rock solid, perfect, flawless digital picture (assuming you can recieve the signal to begin with) that is in many cases superior to what the cable or satellite companies offer (because they sometimes compress the picture which slightly hurts its quality).  The over the air picture has no additional compression so you get the best possible picture.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 20, 2007)

We sound like tv salesmen, but it's the best thing to happen to over the air tv ever.
Now, if I only wouldn't need a dish to get the Mets games.


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## tradergordo (Nov 20, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> We sound like tv salesmen, but it's the best thing to happen to over the air tv ever.
> Now, if I only wouldn't need a dish to get the Mets games.



Hah, yea, and we haven't even mentioned SOUND yet!  You will get the best possible audio with over the air digital.  Many programs are now broadcast in full Dolby Digital 5.1 sound, but the same shows or sports events are usually only broadcast in 2-channel audio when they come from the cable or satellite company (again they do this to save on bandwidth).  I remember my Dad came to visit me and we were watching a game, and he remarked about how neat it was to hear things like crowd noise (cheering) coming from the side (surround) speaker.  He was wondering why he didn't get separate channel audio like that at his house.  I told him that it was because his cable company was only sending 2-channel audio (I know that for a fact), but I am getting 5.1 audio.  The surround experience can really be a big improvement even if its sometimes pretty subtle.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 20, 2007)

That is a very good point re:  sound.
I will put that on my wish list.
Does it cost much to get into a basic setup?
edit:  I believe my tv process the sound (not sure though)-can I just get an amp and speakers?


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## tradergordo (Nov 20, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> That is a very good point re:  sound.
> I will put that on my wish list.
> Does it cost much to get into a basic setup?
> edit:  I believe my tv process the sound (not sure though)-can I just get an amp and speakers?



I haven't kept up with what is out there or prices, but I know there are TONS of options to choose from, probably best to do some searching on the net to figure out the best quality for the budget you have.  It doesn't have to cost much though, generally you will need a receiver, 5 speakers, and a subwoofer, sometimes these are all packaged together to keep it simple.  You can get speaker wire from any hardware store.  The receiver gets its input either directly from a TV (or DVD player) or from your separate tuner box if you are using one.  I would think most TVs with a built in digital tuner also have an audio out jack for an audio receiver.


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## Rhone (Nov 21, 2007)

For surround sound, skip the BOSE brand.  When you go to the store, and listen to a BOSE system you'll be absolutely amazed like the heavens doors have opened up and you're listening to Heaven.  You bring it home and wonder what the hell happened!?  You then realize, at the store their Demo is of course tuned to their system like surgical precision.  I had a moment at the store to say the least and walked home with a $2,800 BOSE surround sound system.  Plugged it in, they had me walk around the room with a sensor while it measured sounds at various places and was done.  I excitedly put in a movie and the bass was awesome, so wasn't the tweeters (high pitched sounds) but the medium tones like voices could barely hear them.  I kept the system for a week playing with the controls, raising the bass, lowering the tweeters, trying to bring up the volume of the middle tones and ended up having to hook up sound to my regular 1985 TV to get those middle-tone sounds and actually hear what people were saying.  It was disappointing to say the least, their system is NOTHING but bass and tweeters they have no mids and I brought it back.  

So, my brother-in-law buys a huge HDTV and gets the Bose surround sound system.  As I'm over there, I say hey you have the Bose.  He says, I wouldn't get it again I couldn't hear the people talking in the movies and nothing I could do to bring up people voices.  I have to have my TV hooked up for the sound so I can hear people talk without being overpowered.  Told him, you should've talked to me I went through that!  After that experience, to me the most important feature is that it has mids & tweeters for all speakers and a subwoofer.  The Bose, or most I know are only tweeters and subwoofer giving them terrible middle-tone capability.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks for the tip.  For me it's a brave new world.


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## Gooserider (Nov 24, 2007)

I would also stay well clear of Bose - I had a temp job working for them a few years back, and was very much NOT impressed by their attitude towards QA...  I was supposed to be doing inspection on some boards that were going into a big money optional Bose sound system that was being sold by some of the major luxury car companies of the day.

I'll admit I've got high standards for electronics build, much of what I've done has been to various mil-specs, and I almost got a NASA satellite cert once, but there are acceptable industry standards for soldering, and there is CRAP - they were telling me to put my name on boards as approved that if I had built them, I would not have had the NERVE to send to QA...  When I mentioned this, they told me "Don't worry, they only have a 90 day warranty"   

I've never considered a Bose product since...

Gooserider


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## Rhone (Dec 3, 2007)

Update  Well, I had another moment at the store.  I went in thinking maybe my wife would want a 26" HDTV for the bedroom and they were pretty similar in price but I saw a 42" one for $50 more and, it was plasma (I like plasma better than LCD) so had a moment and came home with it.  Not something I was wrapping or able to sneak so "Merry early X-Mas honey".  Hooked up some rabbit ears, and couldn't believe I got 5 HDTV stations.  Well, 2 come in great the others come in with blocks & sound problems but I couldn't believe how nice HDTV air signals are!  I didn't realize, that unlike analog where you can frequently get static or stations that come in with lines you don't get any of that with digital.  It's all or nothing there seems to be a threshold for digital.  

So, this weekend I picked up a roof antenna, pre-amp, rotor, and wires to see if I can get all 5 stations in.  Also saw how to test where the broadcast towers are (www.antennaweb.org) most of mine are 45 miles away in one direction, I have several that are 57 miles in another direction, and 65 miles in yet another direction.  Looks like I should be able to get more than 5 stations if the roof antenna works out, or get the 5 I have now at least.  Probably take me a month to get the antenna & wiring up and running.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 4, 2007)

My TV came with a signal meter function in "Setup", to help with the aiming, even with the rabbit ears.
I used a compass too for the big antenna, but you will have a rotor, which you'll probably have to point at north to make agree with the controller inside .  I didn't go the roof route partly because I was scared of it getting hit by lightning too.
Be careful if you're around any energized lines on the roof with that metal in your hands.


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## Kenny1 (Dec 4, 2007)

From a geek with a bit of broadcast experience:

Over the air (OTA) broadcasts (e.g. our traditional networks) look fab in digital. The broadcasters are pumping out 19.4 megabits per second. Why is this important? Because your satellite and cable services will not waste this much space on one channel. They will compress harder to have the signal take up less bandwidth. The result is more compression artifacts. OTA beats "digital" cable or satellite hands down.

Next, what are they doing with their 19.4 Mb/s? A single really high quality HD signal? No, putting out more "channels" of course. Think of it this way, if you have a station, your transmitter can put out one really good HD signal, or compress it a bit harder (and live with some artifacts) and squeeze in a second standard definition (SD) channel (maybe a weather service), maybe press a bit harder, and add a third SD (maybe a kids show) channel. The result? You now have three commercials on the air at one time.

On the bright side, even with one HD and two SD channels, your local OTA broadcaster will still look better than the cable or satellite service.

BTW - HD at 19.4Mb/s is good, but uncompressed HD is really amazing. However, with a data rate of 1.5Gb/s, it is not practical to store or transmit it.

Cheers


Kenny


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## velvetfoot (Dec 4, 2007)

Of course with all this HD talk, what will win, BluRay or HD DVD (or whatever they're called)?


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## Rhone (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, I thought HD DVD is going to win and this is just my $0.02 just because of its name.  A typical non-informed consumer walks into a store to get a DVD player and sees one that can play Blue-Ray, and another that can play HD DVD.  They're going to say, what is Blue-Ray I just want to play High Defintion DVD's and get the one that says it plays HD-DVD.  I think it the rare consumer that's going to walk into the store and know blue lasers having a higher frequency and can play/store more data so they should look for a DVD player with a blue laser, and realize it's called Blue-Ray.  Though that's what I theorize according to http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/ (give it a minute, the first page is about 30 different tests to see who's in the lead) uses amazons ability to see how many blue-ray vs. HD-DVD units are purchased, compare how many DVD's are purchased gives you tons of data and blue-ray was way behind and now it's killing HD-DVD.  Most of the data on the graph uses salesrank lower is better.


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## Czech (Dec 4, 2007)

So I purchased an OTA HD antenna, can I just plug it into the back of the HD set where the typical air antenna hooks up? I know there is a HD connection for an HD box, didn't know if I had to have a box or not. Also, how do you tune the 'in between' channels such as 2.1, 2.2, 2.3? Thanks!


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## velvetfoot (Dec 4, 2007)

There's no such thing as an HD antenna.  It's just vhf and uhf, same as always.  In fact, that hd antenna may only do uhf and won't work as well on vhf, if any of your ota digital stations use vhf.

If you have a digital tuner in your TV, you just plug it in.

You setup the TV and it recognizes available channels.

Don't forget to aim the antenna.


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## Rhone (Dec 4, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Don't forget to aim the antenna.



And, that is key.  Go to http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx and uncheck the 2 boxes saying you'd like to receive marketing, enter your street address & zip and click Submit.  What you'll get, is the available digital stations in your area and what compass orientation they're in.  The stations are color coded yellow is close range and what an indoor antenna should be able to receive, followed by dark green, then light green, red, blue, and pink/violet.  You need a serious directional outdoor antenna for anything in the blue-pink colors.  Click "View Street Level Map" to see exactly where you should aim the antenna for what stations.


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## houblon (Dec 5, 2007)

I have an uhf antenna in the attic, a pre-amp and a set-top box. I'm in the middle between New York and Philadelphia and get  11 channels, some of them have 2, 3 or for sub-channels. And best of all, it is free.
Not all channels have HD programming, but if they have, you get wide screen and surround sound.

I would like to try the antenna up on the roof to see if I can pull in more stations, but I'm not sure how to install it. Would the metal band thing around the center chimney (masonry) be safe? It is a channelmaster 4228. Is there a risk of lightning strike?
We have a SS steel liner inside the chimney, so a measly coax cable might not change much.


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## Rhone (Dec 5, 2007)

Well, since I just researched this for 80 hours and could write a thesis this is the facts, and what I learned. The problem with antenna in the attic, is that moisture blocks signals. If you lived in a desert an attic antenna would work almost as good as a rooftop. However, where you live because of the moisture under the shingles your attic antenna is getting about 1/2 the signal of a rooftop. Wet surfaces reflect nearly 100% of the signal so when your roof is covered in rain you're particularly getting a poor signal. Lastly, in winter when your roof gets covered in snow for extended periods of time... bad for signal. 

To explain lightning, what happens is that as wind blows over an antenna it causes static electricity to build up in said antenna of the kind that attracts lightning. An ungrounded antenna is a dangerous thing, and by code an outside antenna MUST be grounded. Attic antenna's do not need ground, no wind blowing over them. When you ground it, what happens instead is that the static electricity that builds up flows harmlessly to the ground giving your antenna the same polarity as the ground and greatly reduces your chances of a lightning strike as more often than not other things (like trees) will collect static electricity and draw a lightning strike to them instead. You also need to ground your coax cable before entering the building for like reasons. The coax grounding block only grounds the sheath of the cable, not the center conductor but, if your center conductor builds up static electricity it will "jump" from the center to the ground. Since lightning does NOT take corners well, if your antenna does get struck there MUST be an easy path for it to follow as straight as possible to the ground (no sharp or 90 degree turns allowed in grounding wire) and your antenna must be grounded to its own grounding rod (metal water pipe not allowed for ground).  Also, the #10 grounding wire is not capable of handling the millions of volt lightning, think of it more of trying to "lead" the lightning where you want it to go instead of it randomly going to ground however it wants after striking the antenna.  Getting struck even with a ground expect serious damage.  So, grounding won't guarantee it won't get struck, nor will it handle the amount of electricity of a lightning strike, but it will guide it a safer way if you get struck but its main purpose is to all but elminate the risk the antenna will be chosen to be struck in the first place.   

What you'd need is a 
grounding rod http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=GRROD4
grounding wire #10 http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=WRGND30
grounding block coax http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=GRB1
another copper grounding rod clamp (will explain later)
#6 copper wire 

So, the first step is to put the coax grounding block as close as possible to where the coax will enter the house. Then, attach a grounding wire from the antenna, through the grounding coax block, to the grounding rod in as straight a line as possible without sharp corners (remember if it does get struck by lightning, the lightning will follow this path). You then need to attach another clamp to the grounding rod (you're not allowed to put 2 wires into one clamp on a grounding rod) and with #6 wire attach the grounding rod to your breaker panel. They want all grounding rods & wires to have the same polarity as the breaker panel. You should be done! If you get a rotor later on, you need to attach a wire between the 2 half's of your antenna mast. What you'll end up should be something that gets 2x the signal strength which isn't a bad thing most digital stations are going to be broadcast at 1/2 to 1/5th their original power you may need to move it outside anyway. You can read all about antennas and ground scenarios at http://etdxa.org/05_Article_810_Download 2.pdf

I know this may sound stupid, but don't install the antenna near where the power enters your house. So many people have been killed doing such.


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## fbelec (Dec 6, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> For me, the roof is metal and probably wouldn't help with the signals.
> Plus, getting the wire from the attic to the basement is not that easy for me.



i snake wires for a living. what you want to do is run a $10.00 dollar snake down beside the main plumbing vent pipe that goes from the basement to the attic. usually a straight shot unless there is fire blocking. and if there is fire blocking run the wire if you have vinyl siding down one of the corners of the house and drill a 3/8 hole thru the sill plate into the basement. if you don't have vinyl siding and have shingles run the wire down the outside of the house next to the electric service pipe or cable what ever you have and into the basement that way.


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## fbelec (Dec 6, 2007)

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> Well, since I just researched this for 80 hours and could write a thesis this is the facts, and what I learned. The problem with antenna in the attic, is that moisture blocks signals. If you lived in a desert an attic antenna would work almost as good as a rooftop. However, where you live because of the moisture under the shingles your attic antenna is getting about 1/2 the signal of a rooftop. Wet surfaces reflect nearly 100% of the signal so when your roof is covered in rain you're particularly getting a poor signal. Lastly, in winter when your roof gets covered in snow for extended periods of time... bad for signal.
> 
> To explain lightning, what happens is that as wind blows over an antenna it causes static electricity to build up in said antenna of the kind that attracts lightning. An ungrounded antenna is a dangerous thing, and by code an outside antenna MUST be grounded. Attic antenna's do not need ground, no wind blowing over them. When you ground it, what happens instead is that the static electricity that builds up flows harmlessly to the ground giving your antenna the same polarity as the ground and greatly reduces your chances of a lightning strike as more often than not other things (like trees) will collect static electricity and draw a lightning strike to them instead. You also need to ground your coax cable before entering the building for like reasons. The coax grounding block only grounds the sheath of the cable, not the center conductor but, if your center conductor builds up static electricity it will "jump" from the center to the ground. Since lightning does NOT take corners well, if your antenna does get struck there MUST be an easy path for it to follow as straight as possible to the ground (no sharp or 90 degree turns allowed in grounding wire) and your antenna must be grounded to its own grounding rod (metal water pipe not allowed for ground). Also, the #10 grounding wire is not capable of handling the millions of volt lightning, think of it more of trying to "lead" the lightning where you want it to go instead of it randomly going to ground however it wants after striking the antenna. Getting struck even with a ground expect serious damage. So, grounding won't guarantee it won't get struck, nor will it handle the amount of electricity of a lightning strike, but it will guide it a safer way if you get struck but its main purpose is to all but elminate the risk the antenna will be chosen to be struck in the first place.
> 
> ...




you beat me to it. what you explained to do is not hard (for those people thinking that is to much info and is confusing). when i was a kid i experimented with different antenna's and designs and use to make different cb band antennas horizontal, vertical, beam type, i use to use a y quad really complicated design if your just looking at it. 
back then all we had was vhf tv. we could not afford to buy a new tv with uhf so we got the converter and i made a 3 element beam type antenna and thats how i use to watch tv. never thought i'd be hearing anything about a tv station again.

what you said about grounding is very important. i use to stop using and detach my antenna every time there was to be a lightning storm near. one day with the wind blowing across the antenna it charged up with static and i got hit with the static discharge. it jumped about a foot to my hand. that hurt. way bigger hit than rubbing your feet on the carpet on a cold dry day and touching a radiator

the other thing that was said here but not much is when your putting up your antenna outside spend the money and buy a rotor. especially with the bigger antennas with all those elements. the more elements on a antenna the more pinpoint your antenna receiving spot is. so you will have to move it for each individual station but you will receive the station better. then mark on your rotor control box each station and you'll be in business.

sorry for being long winded but i love this stuff.


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## Rhone (Dec 6, 2007)

I wanted a rotor with a remote control as I wanted to control it in the bedroom & living room.  That limited me pretty much to the Channel Master 9512A or Eagle Aspen rotor ROTR100.  Both appear to use the same motor and assembly, and both made in China.  Channel Master used to have top notch rotors but are crap in comparison since the move to China.  

The Eagle Aspen rotor uses coax cable to power & control the unit.  Also allows the use of a pre-amp on same coax (up to 17v DC).  Meaning, just need a single coax cable to the antenna to power the rotor, pre-amp, and control the rotor (it listens to signals sent in the coax cable).  But, adding devices in the line costs signal strength and having it set up with this method causes a signal loss of 3.5 db.  The alternative is run 2 coax lines to prevent the 3.5db loss.  The Channel Master uses the standard rotor 3 wire its always used so you need to run that along with a coax line.  The Eagle Aspen rotor counts motor revolutions to ensure a +/- 2 degree accuracy.  The CM uses a clock to determine accuracy, that's to say if you ask it to turn 90 degrees the CM calculates it should take 20 seconds so turns on the motor for that time.  You can see the problem with the Channel Master, if it incorrectly times how long it takes and stops the motor at the wrong time, any further requests will compound errors and then you have to force it to do a resynch North.

I purchased the Eagle Aspen Rotor ROTR100, I think without a doubt superior to CM's.  I got it this week, worked as advertised except came with a defective remote control.  Just wasn't working with the remote but I could manually control it from the top box, then I figured out how to test if it was the remote or receiver.  I used a cheap digital camera and used its LCD and then pointed the remote at it and pressed buttons.  Since cheap digital cameras detect IR, I should see the IR light blink in the digital camera's LCD.  I didn't, but did see it with my other remotes. Now waiting for the replacement.


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## fbelec (Dec 7, 2007)

i haven't done anything with antenna's or tv in a long long time. i just was at the channelmaster site before here and seen the remote control. that is the first i've ever heard or seen about a remote control rotor. that is awsum.
when i was in my cb days i had a set of beams on my roof it was called (the wilson y quad) horizontal or vertical two element with a wire that wrapped around the tips of all the elements. what a site but i did a long of talking to people all aver the world with that thing. i use to have a rotor that did way more than i should, and took it. never burnt out it was made by a company called reliance. awful noise control box but it did the job and it was cheap money
you guy's gave me the itch again and if i can find some time this weekend i'm going to hookup the sony to a antenna and see what we have around here.


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## Rhone (Dec 10, 2007)

This weekend got the roof antenna hooked up.  I went from 3-5 stations to 38 DIFFERENT stations (I had 50 originally but removed the duplicate analog & digital) ALL are crystal clear.  That was facing the antenna towards a big city where most of the broadcast towers are located, I haven't rotated the antenna in another direction and seen what others I get (it won't be many I believe).  

My wife and I could not be happier, only snag was the rotor gets power & signals through coax and if > 75 ft needs solid copper core coax which isn't easy to find in todays world (today almost all coax is copper coated steel).  Found it at a satellite shop that not only had it but had a twinned coax of it looked like http://pimages.solidsignal.com/ULPVRG6SCDUALWHT.gif but black.  Was perfect, one for the rotor one for the antenna.  Could not believe how crisp and clear all 38 stations are.  Many are in high def, dolby 5.1 surround sound and best of all free (after high up front costs *)

Cost was:
$109 for Winegard 7084p antenna (131" x 110" but just 13 lbs!)
$69 for Eagle Aspen Rotor
$59 for Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp
$9 for an 8' piece of galvanized fence post at HD for the mast
$70 for 100' of twinned coax cable solid copper core
$22 for Coax crimping tool 
$14 for Coax stripping tool
$75 for #6 grounding wire to breaker panel (I needed 70 feet) + 50 feet of #8 grounding wire
$6 for grounding rod
$6 for 2 acorn grounding clamps
$2 for double coax grounding clamp
$25 for clamps, coax cable crimp heads (both waterproof and regular), fasteners, etc.
$22 Eave mount antenna bracket
--------------------------
$488

The setup above is pretty much as high end as one can go without going into specialty.  The antenna is the biggest a consumer rotor can handle, and that's the best antenna for its size since it's the only that's direct to coax (doesn't need a balun and baluns slightly decrease signal).  My wife and I feel it was worth the $500, though I thought it would be $300 then I had to purchase the #6 wire, tools, crimps, it added up.  I was just hoping for the 11 or so stations some 45+ miles away but to get 38 crystal clear, many in high-definition dolby 5.1 surround we feel it worth it.  I'm really amazed that, if you don't have a digital tuner you really are missing out on A LOT of stations, high def & dolby 5.1 beside.  Had we just an analog TV we'd have 18 stations, because we have digital we get another 20 stations!  Many digital stations are linked together, let's say you watch channel 14.  Well, that channel 14 in digital format can have channel 14-1 which is the typical station and 14-2 which may be a 24/7 weather station channel that anlog folks simply can't see.  But, we live on the top of a hill and it's winter (particularly strong signals) so we'll see what summer brings and fortunately it's winter when we want to watch it.


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