# Empyre Pro Series - Profab 400



## leeeallen (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi all, just wondering if there are other forum members who are using the 200 or 400 model of the Profab gassifier. I would like your feedback.

My 400 is running flawlessly - although we have had a mild winter here in Maine, I am guessing I will use 30-50% less wood compared to my CB 6048 unit which I used for 2 years. I am burning wood that is around 12% (which I think is key) and playing the game of not overloading the firebox. The creosote build up in the firebox can be kept to a minimum if you let the fire burn down to a bed of coals before refilling. 

I clean out the reaction chamber ash once every 2 days ( one minute job)and get very little ash. Once a month I clean out the fly ash in the tubes in the back (20 min. job) and find that's all it takes to keep the unit running efficiently. 

I did have a creosote issue near the fan in the rear during our unusually warm fall, but that was solved by putting less wood in the firebox and letting it burn down to just a bed of goals before reloading. 

I found the people at Profab very responsive ( a returned email and a phone call within 12 hours) when I had an issue with creosote. 

Overall, I would recommend the Profab 400. I have a 5000 sq ft. farm house that is 210 years old and a 1000sq ft. work garage that I'm heating.


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## pelletdude (Jan 7, 2012)

That is great to hear. We are very pleased with the Pro Fab line of Boilers. Our customers are impressed with the wood savings and the simplicity of operation.
Pro Fab's customer service is some of the best in the industry. 

If you experience any creosote we are recommending a product called CO-Mate. It is a powder developed for large furnace  and Co generation plants. works great.


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## barkeatr (Jan 8, 2012)

NOT TO HIJACK thread but is there a minimum water temperature on the intake/return side for the profab units.  I have a 200 profab outdoor gasser...i guess the min temperature would be the same as other boilers, like 140 degrees?  that will be difficult for me i have a high mass house, my storage is in the high mass, so house stays warm throughout morning..but water tems are often 115 or so when i go out to fire it up.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 9, 2012)

barkeatr said:
			
		

> NOT TO HIJACK thread but is there a minimum water temperature on the intake/return side for the profab units.  I have a 200 profab outdoor gasser...i guess the min temperature would be the same as other boilers, like 140 degrees?  that will be difficult for me i have a high mass house, my storage is in the high mass, so house stays warm throughout morning..but water tems are often 115 or so when i go out to fire it up.



 Yes return protection is still needed. It will work fine with low mass. It will recurculate the water in the boiler untill it's warm enough, then mix in the return water a little at a time   so as to not shock the boiler and warp the steel. Boilers without return
protection have been Known to go bad in as little as 2 years.


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## Dirt Digger (Jan 9, 2012)

Hi all,  I am also running a Pro 200 and I am having great sucess with it, It is way better on wood consumption than the CB 5046 that I ran for 5 years.


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## leeeallen (Jan 9, 2012)

Barkeater,
I think it's very dangerous to let return temps to the boiler fall below 140. 
Sounds like you need more storage. 

I have a heavy load on my 400  ---(6000) + sq ft. and I'm using a 70 plate HX and no storage. My supply temp is 180 and my return temps are never less than 165, even when all 3 apts in my main house are calling for heat and my gargae is at a cozy 70 degrees. My run is 250 ft. one way.


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## leeeallen (Jan 9, 2012)

Dirtdigger, glad to hear you like the 200. Obviously, the gassifier is going to burn less than the traditional OWB, but I did like my CB 6048 - they are bullet proof, but sure do like the wood and give off a lot of smoke. The maintenence on the 400 is a bit more than the 6048 but, in my mind, is well worth it.


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## pelletdude (Jan 9, 2012)

barkeatr said:
			
		

> NOT TO HIJACK thread but is there a minimum water temperature on the intake/return side for the profab units.  I have a 200 profab outdoor gasser...i guess the min temperature would be the same as other boilers, like 140 degrees?  that will be difficult for me i have a high mass house, my storage is in the high mass, so house stays warm throughout morning..but water tems are often 115 or so when i go out to fire it up.



The minimum temperature of the water returning to the boiler whether it is a wood, gas or oil boiler is 140F because it will cause the condensation of the products of combustion ( water vapour) in the boiler and you will cause corrosion ( rust). 
 There are a number of ways of protecting the boiler.
 Primary secondary piping system where you have water circulating constantly between the boiler and the house on one loop and then on closely spaced tees run a second pump that puts water through your heat exchanger. One the primary loop you install an aqua stat that in the event the return temp drops beloe 140 it interups the secondary pump until the return temp comes back up above the differential on the aqua stat (5-10 degrees). So at 145 -150 the secondary pump comes back on allowing the cold water to mix with the hot water in the primary circuit. This will continue to cycle until the return water is back up to temperature.

 Another option is to install a 3 way valve so that the aqua stat on the constantly circulating loop will only allow water to flow through the heat exchanger when the return water is above 140f.

 A thermistic valve can also be used to protect the boiler.

 Your wood boiler should set to operate at no less then 170f.

 Operating your boiler below 140 will shorten the life of the boiler dramatically, operating it with water coming back at 115f will kill it real quick.


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## leeeallen (Jan 9, 2012)

Pelletdude, thanks for the info.

 Would it make sense to do away with his storage and just run the Profab unit 24-7 and keep the temp set to 180. Most people I know run their outdoor unit 24-7. Fill it once in the morning and once at night.


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## pelletdude (Jan 9, 2012)

MEHEAT said:
			
		

> Pelletdude, thanks for the info.
> 
> Would it make sense to do away with his storage and just run the Profab unit 24-7 and keep the temp set to 180. Most people I know run their outdoor unit 24-7. Fill it once in the morning and once at night.



All of our customers run their Pro Fab units with no storage 24/7. The key is too control the return water temp no lower than 140  145f. Burn the correct amount of wood, do not over fill the firebox.  An open gasification system is completely different than a closed ( pressurized )one where storage is required or highly recommended.


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## barkeatr (Jan 9, 2012)

OK, i understand the boiler protection idea.  Looking through the profab manual this morning and there is not really any indication of this...other than a mixing valve at the radiant headers..thanks for the notes on boiler protection LP Dealer.   HEy MEHEAT how much wood do you go through? 

why does the open gasificatin system not need the storage as much...because they run 24/7 i guess but i still dont understand why its the open factor that makes this difference.  is it because there is oxygen in the water ?


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## barkeatr (Jan 9, 2012)

this is starting to make sense to me...the folks that have the boiler protection have fires that last longer because the load is taken off when it goes below 140.  I suppose thats ok because the fire is still a fairly good fire vs a starved one.  i just wasnt understanding how they could go 24/7 without the fire going out.   I bet most are doing three properly sized loads a day...or they would be if they lived in upstate NY..

  Im going ot have to take a day off from work and get this resolved.  I did purchase a solar control system on ebay, maybe i can wire that to resolve this.  jeez thanks so much..i have to say they shoudl put this in the manuals more and even send the boilers with the electrical shut off protection at a minimum!  

thanks all.


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## leeeallen (Jan 9, 2012)

Barkeater - I'm guessing I'll go thru 10 - 12 cords. I fire my unit up Oct 1 and shut it down May 1. I buy a load of tree length which is around 11 cord, run it thru my wood processor into my dump truck, and my two boys and a couple of their friends stack it under cover. Pretty painless this way and it sure beats paying the oil man. 

The supply  in my outdoor boiler never goes below 169 . I don't understand how the return temp can drop to 140 or below unless the fire goes out.


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## barkeatr (Jan 9, 2012)

sounds like you have a good system going...best part of it is that your boys are involved. 

part of my problem is that my house is too high mass...i can go 6-12 hours or more with no heat...so the boiler runs down...i need to tweak things a bit!   my pipe size is too small also at one inch pex.   but first i will get after the boiler protection. 

TIm


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## pelletdude (Jan 9, 2012)

barkeatr said:
			
		

> OK, i understand the boiler protection idea.  Looking through the profab manual this morning and there is not really any indication of this...other than a mixing valve at the radiant headers..thanks for the notes on boiler protection LP Dealer.   HEy MEHEAT how much wood do you go through?
> 
> why does the open gasificatin system not need the storage as much...because they run 24/7 i guess but i still dont understand why its the open factor that makes this difference.  is it because there is oxygen in the water ?



The low water temp has nothing to do with heat storage or whether it is an open system or not.
Even the traditional outside boilers have an issue with low return water temp it is just that the heat exchange is happening in the big drum fire box and the condensation that forms on the walls is dryed up more often because the fire can get hotter there. But there is still condensing happening and most of the time when the unit rusts and leaks it is blamed on bad steel or a bad weld, well that is not the case, it was caused by corrosion which is excelerated by the moisture.

  In order to get the most amount of heat out of the boiler the products of combustion ( water vapour/steam, carbon dioxcide,ect. have to come in contact with the walls of the boiler tubes in order for the heat to be transfered to the water. Laws of physics tell us that the water vapour will condence out on any surface that is +/- 136f or less. It does not matter what the fuel is.

On a gas or oil furnace we automaticly fuel the unit so the return water temp can be controled manualy and many installers do it that way by installing a bypass loop where water from the supply is diverted to the return piping to the boiler, heating it up to above 140f. They install a valve on this bypass piping and after adjusting to the desired temp, remove the handle from the valve so no one will alter it.
  Because a wood boiler relys on someone to fuel the unit to maintain temperatures we have to make boiler protection automatic.

  Open verses closed systems.
 The Empyre gasification boilers are open systems and the advantages are-
 - the burning of the wood in the unit is controled and can be stopped and restarted by the amount of air going into the burn chamber. So consider the loading chamber as a hopper.
 - because we are controling the burn we do not need a storage tank
 - the unit has enough water on board to absorbe the heat of the fire as it goes oyt when the blower shuts down when there is a power outage.
-there is then no need for a dumpzone, wild loop, expansion tank, water feeder, auto fill system, back flow preventer or stand by power system.
- after the power is restored to the unit in most cases the fire will restart on it's own. If there was fuel in the unit when the blower shut off the unit will relight after hrs of laying dormant because of a power interuption or if the thermostat was satisfied.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 10, 2012)

- the burning of the wood in the unit is controled and can be stopped and restarted by the amount of air going into the burn chamber. So consider the loading chamber as a hopper.

This Is all-so true of a closed system.

not all closed systems have to have a storage tanks.

I like the profab. Just wanted to add those facts


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## Dirt Digger (Jan 10, 2012)

Meheat,  Yes the maintance is a little more on my pro 200 gasser. but it is still far less than cutting and stacking that 5 to 6 cords of firewood that I am saving.   and there is little to no smoke


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## barkeatr (Jan 10, 2012)

ok, i have programmed my house (read:slab) thermostats so they remove the heat load from the profab 200 at 4am in the morning, about the time that the fire is running low and they would start sending below 140 degree water back.  the only heat load at that point is the hot water heater which being a insulated tank does not put much load on boiler.   THis is good for the family as it better ensures hot water if a shower is being taken early. my high mass house thermostats dont really show a drop in temperature and  by six or seven i can reload firebox. 

i have also turned up the temperature on my hot water heater ( my hot water heater provides domestic and radiant slab heat) so there is more protection of return water temperaturs.  Hey if it turns on twice a week that is going to be like 3 gallons by the end of the winter.  I can live with that.

these are the immediate return water boiler protection revisions im making and a longer term solution is in the works. 

thanks for the help folks. 

barkeater


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## hoogie (Jan 11, 2012)

i'm in my thrid season with my pro200, and this is the first time i've heard of this inline protection. My dealer and even pro fab have never mentioned anything about it. Granted the burner runs 24/7 water heat set a 180 so in therory i should never have that low of return water temps. unless on few occasions that the fire goes out and water temp drops to 115 or so. but with no fire in there i wouldnt think any condensation should form either...and like a previous post the only place ive ever had problems with creoste is back left where the air comes in...i'll take the fan off and run a toilete snake up there a couple of times a year to deal with that. other then that and replacing some bricks this season i've never had any problems with the burner...love it...


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## barkeatr (Jan 11, 2012)

hOOGIE,   i think its the low temperature (radiant) systems that are especially vunerable to low temperature return.  I have been doing a lot of reading on this these last two days.  Your probably fine but you should have a way to check the return temperature just in case. 

Tim


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## hoogie (Jan 11, 2012)

i just check it a temp. gun...lol i'm way above 140 on my return lines. the only time i have a prob. is if i run the garage hx. it is way to big for my system...smaller hx are in the works right now though...


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## barkeatr (Jan 11, 2012)

i wish that was the case with me Hoogie man.   but i will get er fixed.   that special tool you made, that was to poke up those holes in the firebrick right?   not sure why it was seven foot long.  My unit is seriorsly plugged...either where you say or the flapper is stuck or its gunked up.  Have you taken fan flapper off?

barkineater


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## Dirt Digger (Jan 11, 2012)

Barkeater,  I have had to clean my stove once because it got gunked up when I was running in the summer with not so dry wood, This is what I did to make the stove like new.  Take off the fan, Take off the flapper -- Make sure the flapper is working freely,   Behind the flapper you will find a box maybe 5" deep -- Inside that you will find a square -- triangle box That is where it will be cloged, You will have to break all the black junk out of that box -- There is an air chanel to the left ---  to the right --  straight ahead -- and straight up  get them all clean,  be careful of the insulation in the foward hole. Put everything back together.   Inside the firebox remove the left side bricks --- Pay attention to the order that they come out, they are in cequence.  Clean the chanel between the left side and the bottom bricks -- There is a slot in the side of your nozzle bricks, Make sure that is clear,  I vacume mine. While you have the left side bricks out turn on the fan for a second to make sure you are getting good air flow through that area. Put your bricks back in the order that they came out and your stove will run like it did when it was new.         P.S.  If you do this service once a year your stove will always burn very clean.  Good luck.   Dirt Digger


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## barkeatr (Jan 11, 2012)

appreciate the detailed breakdown...im headed out there now to giver a good cleaning out!   i may have to forgo the innner bricks as there is still a medium fire in there.  i have a feeling the fan is gunked however...thanks digger.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 12, 2012)

Is it just me? or are we really really shy on pics from Empyre Profab boilers? ;-)


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## barkeatr (Jan 12, 2012)

I  usually just use pictures to aid the discussion and till now i havent seen a need.   Dirt diggers text breakdown guided me fine through the flapper surgery.   I can post some photos though if you have specific request, no worries Deadbtu..


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## Den69RS96 (Jan 12, 2012)

What do the pro series 200 boilers cost?   I'm looking at getting a OWB within a year or two.  Right now I'm comparing the pro series with the eclassic 1400.  The P&M 250 is a little too expensive


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## pelletdude (Jan 12, 2012)

$10,850.00 includes delivery


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## hoogie (Jan 12, 2012)

man 10.500 seems high to me I had my whole system put in for less than that...maybe the yrs have added to the price. empyer has only one moving part to take into consideration the flapper on the back side of the unit thats the reason along with the price tag for my purchase of the unit...and whenever i got a question i call profab during the day and usually chat with one of the designers of the stove...there great on info...i noticed a person thats burning 12% moisture wood...profab told me thats a little to low they said 18-22% is in the perfect range for the stove...as for the clean out tool that i made its 7 foot long just so i dont need to be so close to the heat when i'm puttin it down those slots to clean out the air ways for the gasser chamber. and the only time i pull the bricks off from the side like above is when i shut it down for the season and vac out the whole unit. making sure to get that air passage cleaned as well. normally dont do it during burning season, just this last time the weather was so nice that i shut the burner down last week to replace acouple of broken bricks which i didnt think was so bad they lasted 3 seasons easy and fast burner was back up to water temp in less than 5 hrs. As for pics on the empyer line maybe ya dont see em cause theres really nothin that can really go wrong with em...i have pics posted on here of the unit and install though...for an epa stove i just throw seasoned wood in er and forget it...no tinkerin around like you find with a lot of the indoor models...hence no inside pics of the unit...


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## barkeatr (Jan 12, 2012)

funny you say 18%-22% is optimum.  I know that its an old wives tale that wood can be too dry...as far as pure BTU analysis. but other factors play a part like burn times.  Profab may have well tested and calibrated thier stove on these percentags knowing the difficulty and realisticness of 12% wood.  Mine is 15 percent now or lower, its mainly cherry so im getting 6-8 hour burn times on 80% fill up.  I agree regarding the simplicity of the stove.


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## barkeatr (Jan 12, 2012)

mine was 10,000 plus 500 delivery..( I was a long way away from dealer)...but talk to pelletdude, his service is excellent.  I have learned i paid too much.   Its really a good idea to get a good dealer as there are familiarity things he can make you aware of.  ALso, if you dont go with pelletdude, make sure you see the boiler your getting..i ended up with one that was on the lot for three years.  It still works fine but the brush was rusted and there was minor rust at normal


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## Dirt Digger (Jan 12, 2012)

Hey den69rs96   Looks like we are close,  stop by sometime and I will show you everything you need to no about a pro 200.


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