# educate me on homeowner tractor/loader/backhoe, please.



## RAY_PA

I reallly think we are in the market for such a machine. I started looking online and muct confess, I got some 'sticker shock'. 
We have a 500 ft driveway to plow and mantain, 12 acres with several trails and 2 ponds,  go through about 6 cords of wood per year, lots of lawn work, flowerbeds, mulch, stone, drainage ditches, rip out a stump here and there, etc. 
want 4X4, hydro,  FEL, hoe, with intent for additional implements in the future, prob a mower for trail and field edge. (brushhog) Was thinking +/- 30 hp. But looks like I will be hard pressed to find something in my price range in the 30 HP range, how bout 24hp? to small? 25?, 26? I dont have a prefference name brand wise, but dont want junk either and mostly dont want to drop the coin for one that I will not be able to do the things I mentioned.
Thanks for any help.


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## fossil

What's your budget?

ETA:  For the Hearth.com of tractors, go here:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/


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## RAY_PA

Well, I _was _hoping to spend around $10K, but it probably going to have to be closer to $14 and a used unit. .....maybe?


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## nate379

If you buy one of the "off brand" tractors $10k.. ish can get you something. My Dad has a 25hp or so 4x4 Kioti which has worked well for him.

Ford/New Holland, Kubota, John Deere is $$$$$$ all the way around... attachments, parts, the tractors, etc.



RAY_PA said:


> Well, I _was _hoping to spend around $10K, but it probably going to have to be closer to $14 and a used unit. .....maybe?


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## nate379

Ok can't edit for some reason, but wanted to mention my Dad uses his tractor for about the same as your planning to do.  They have about 5 acres of land they tend to and my brother uses is as well on his 300 acres.


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## MasterMech

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/kioti-tractors.83561/#post-1071743
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/sub-compact-tractors.84740/#post-1090421
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/tractor-pics.83794/

Every once in a while we talk tractors around here,  You can search in The Gear and the DIY forums and check out some of the threads I linked above.

+1 on "What's your budget?"

Typical 4x4 mid-frame CUT with loader/hoe and hydro trans is $30K territory new.  Newer lightly used is still around $20K.


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## RAY_PA

I have been watcnihg these type units for several months, locally. It seems that most sell from $11K to $18K. Keep in mind these are used units for sale by owner. 20-30 HP FEL and hoe.

Thanks, Fossil that site has a ton of info.


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## fossil

Four years ago, I bought my M-F subcompact for $16.7K, 0% financing (all paid off now).  Dealer cut me a bit of a break because it had been a demo and had ~4 hours on it.  It is 4WD, Hydrostatic, mid and rear PTO's, 3PH.  I did not opt for the available mid-PTO driven mower deck, because I don't have anything to mow.  The current version of this is the M-F 2400TLB (22.5 HP) and now they have a 2600TLB (25 HP).  These are both north of $20K new.  I'm thinking that for $10K - $14K you're probably looking at a used machine for all the stuff you want it to do.  Rick


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## Jags

Sounds like you are in the used market category.  In my opinion you have named some tasks that a single unit is not going to do.  Example:  The machine that can rip out a 14" stump ain't the same machine that you will be driving up to flower beds.

I have a Case 580CK with backhoe.  I can rip out stumps and do loader work and all that, but you best keep it away from foundations or any ground that you aren't willing to rut up.  I realize that this is bigger than a CUT, but your not gonna strip or lift a 18" stump and root ball with a CUT.  (just pointing this out because one of your requirements was that it can do ALL the jobs you listed.  NOT busting your chops, just keeping expectations real)


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## fossil

Jags said:


> ...your not gonna strip or lift a 18" stump and root ball with a CUT...


 
And that's the truth.  A big stump would laugh at my little tractor while my little tractor was laughing at me.


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## Jags

fossil said:


> And that's the truth. A big stump would laugh at my little tractor while my little tractor was laughing at me.


 
Man - I really like those little tractors. They look as handy as a third arm to me, but I just had a friend that bought a JD CUT (and a pretty good sized one). He never even thought to take into consideration the lift height and weight capacity of the machine and is now a bit disappointed (his fault, not the tractors). I would like a smaller unit for around the house type stuff. Mine weighs in at 11,000 pounds.


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## fossil

Yeah, my little guy's ~2600 lbs soaking wet (incl. FEL & BH).  I've loaded it up onto a 8' x 12' tandem axle flatbed utility tractor and towed it over to the dealer for service and back...easy.


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## RAY_PA

great thoughts and I didnt take it like you were busting my chops, thanks!  I guess when I was thinking rip out a stump, I should have realized it wouldnt rip out a 14" one.(but never really thought about it) The occasional small stump in the way of a flower bed or large rock that would need to be removed. most would be dirt work and gravel hauling/spreading. is a 22-24 HP unit big enough? can I tinker and run a brush hog? I have a 12K dump trailer I could haul it in, but dont intend to take it off the property very often, but dont want to tear the lawn up either. I guess 'mid size'?
Here is an example of one I have interest in, but am worried it would be to small. I think its very similar to yours, fossil.

"massey gc-2410,tractor loader backhoe.4wd hydro trans loaded rear tires ex. condition always garaged.as clean as they come.12,500 FIRM"


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## fossil

That's exactly what I have (except for the loaded rear tires), just the next year's model.  Mine's a GC2310.


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## jeff_t

I had a Mahindra for a few years, until work went away and I had to sell something. It was a pretty well built unit. The company has been around for many years, and built IH tractors for overseas markets. 
The one I had was 35 hp and 4x4, and with FEL, loaded tires, and three point blade weighed in at 4600. Live PTO, both 540 and 1000 RPM, and strong hydraulics. It had no problem picking up a full bucket of limestone that I know weighed close to a ton. Also picked the rear wheels up a few times if I didn't have the blade on the back. It wasn't hydrostatic, but I'm not a fan for loader work, anyway. Always started in the winter with no block heater, only glow plugs.
The dealer is an old friend and somebody I trust, and that was really the biggest selling point. I think I paid $17k and some change. 
I sure do miss it now.


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## greg13

You may be better off finding an older Ford 555 or Case 580. They have been around long enough that you can find some older ones in good shape $3-6K range. They are big enough to really move some snow and dig.


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## MasterMech

RAY_PA said:


> great thoughts and I didnt take it like you were busting my chops, thanks! I guess when I was thinking rip out a stump, I should have realized it wouldnt rip out a 14" one.(but never really thought about it) The occasional small stump in the way of a flower bed or large rock that would need to be removed. most would be dirt work and gravel hauling/spreading. is a 22-24 HP unit big enough? can I tinker and run a brush hog? I have a 12K dump trailer I could haul it in, but dont intend to take it off the property very often, but dont want to tear the lawn up either. I guess 'mid size'?
> Here is an example of one I have interest in, but am worried it would be to small. I think its very similar to yours, fossil.
> 
> "massey gc-2410,tractor loader backhoe.4wd hydro trans loaded rear tires ex. condition always garaged.as clean as they come.12,500 FIRM"


 

You don't have to rip out stumps with the hoe.  You can dig around them and tug 'em out with the tractor.  Sounds like you want to avoid the Sub-Compacts (Machines the size of fossil's) and stick to a solid used mid-frame or bigger.  If you could live without the hydro that would open up more choices for you and save a ton of $$.  I understand if that's a must-have for you tho.


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## leaddog

I'd forget the backhoe att.. For most people the few times they use one it would be cheaper to rent  a mini hoe that will do the job 10 times faster and be cheaper in the long run. I've use both and those little hoes on the back of a small tractor are a waste of time. You spend more time moving the tractor than digging. Those little tracked hoes will really dig and move around things and you do every thing right fron the seat.
I'd look around for a used bronson, mirandra, geared tractor. They are VERY solid built and have very solid loaders. You will use the loader ALL the time. Don't get caught up in buying one of the big three because you heard they are better and made here. You are buying the color. ALL cuts are made over seas and some of the best built ones are not green or orange. If you are buying to resell then buy green or orange. Also look at the speks on lifting wt. of the loader as some of the loaders are only good for light stuff. I don't know if it still holds true yet but a few years ago the green ones stated that the warrenty was void if used with the loader they sold!!
leaddog


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## coaly

Paid 3,500 for my 60's JD 400 diesel loader with hoe. Paid for itself digging my basement and circular drive, well ditch, and septic in 1985. Since then, everything from installing a rebuilt V-8 into a cabin cruiser, scratching a garden area and removing huge rocks from it, steering trees down and burying an occasional neighbors animal. I've set beams and pulled out septic pump trucks from back yards. I made a small farm out of my 2 1/2 acres and use the front bucket for wood, stone, mulch, manure, you name it. Biggest problem is not using on saturated ground where it's going to sink. So it's good to wait for frozen ground to cross the yard to carry heavy stuff.  
  I'm in a glacier rock area of NEPA that a smaller machine always needs something larger. I even needed an excavator to remove one rock when digging my basement. It was the size of a pick-up truck. (and broke off a huge piece the basement is built on)
  For plowing the driveway and garden is a 1950 Ford 8-N. I've tried neighbors 3 cylinder Kubotas and end up needing larger. The only downfall having a larger machine is the ground damage everytime you drop the stabilizer feet to dig something or remove a tree. Massive ruts and grass to fix when done. A few neighbors that live on our 1/2 mile private road all share plowing, and if the sides get high enough or frozen that they can't push them back, I'll get out the backhoe to use the loader to move piles or shove them back. That's my contribution for snow removal that was only required a few times, so the plowing is taken care of for me just having that machine.
  Below is dropping manure from a 1 ton bucket, then discing it in with the Ford. I'd be lost without either machine. I favor antiques.


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## blades

Hay Ray, always check to see that parts are available on used stuff, Like a massy 10xx series.These were built by a Japanese company that has since gone belly up, major parts are close to non exisitant.


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## flyingcow

All good info. I had a backhoe, but sold it. Only used it once in a while.

as someone said check out    www.tractorbynet.com

educate yourself on what you want and price. Keep trolling the clasifieds. I bought a New Holland TN75da, with cab,FEL BH, chains,rimgaurd, etc. It was a yr old with 300 hours. Owner had paid a little over $50,000.00 I bought it for $32,000.00  Had to liquidate his assets in a hurry. I helped. Kept the BH for a yr, sold it for $7500


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## simple.serf

I usually goto the local consignment auctions. Now, I don't recommend this unless you can turn a wrench,  but there were good utility tractors going there, both gas and diesel for under 3K. Lots of MF's and JD. I have been getting implements there for years.

Here's my logic: most of the time on a utility tractor, the motor is shot due to lots of cold starts. Cleaning a barn isn't usually to hard on the rest of the machine. On a gasser a rebuild kit is usually 2k if you need everything and don't have to have too much machining done. 4k on the diesel if the injector pump is still good.

So there I am for 7k If I really messed up at the auction... most of the time a good tuneup is all you need. then you still have 3 k to spend on implements.

As to the backhoe, if you need one enough, buy an old unit (I borrow a MF-165 from a friend) or rent/borrow one.

If I didn't keep old junk running I wouldn't be farming.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

Little late here, and I'll mostly just concur with all the above.

Don't attempt to "mow" with a machine that can rip stumps. If what you are mowing is truly a "lawn" you need a finish mower with minimum ground disturbance.

Don't go 2WD.

Don't spend xtra cash on hydro. Gear saves money, and is best for ground engagement. Orange - and prolly Blue, Green, etc - makes an "Hydraulic Shuttle" which is still gear, but gives clutchless, aka 'reverser'

If at all possible, plow snow with a truck. Way better, faster, more comfortable than a tractor. The FEL comes in handy for moving snow piles, but when used for 'plowing', a bucket will have you chasing windrows until spring comes

Try shopping TractorHouse.com and Fastline.com Both are great resourses. You will soon get a feel for tractor values and probably become addicted

Also try TractorByNet.com You won't see any pictures of hot chicks there, and the webmaster has no sense of humor, but you will ba amazed by the user-supplied info. Reminds me of another site . . .


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## MasterMech

ISeeDeadBTUs said:


> Don't spend xtra cash on hydro. Gear saves money, and is best for ground engagement. Orange - and prolly Blue, Green, etc - makes an "Hydraulic Shuttle" which is still gear, but gives clutchless, aka 'reverser'


 
Some of the shuttle shifts are a wet clutch design too. Waaay better than a dry clutch. Lasts 3X as long, at least.

I wouldn't shy away from a hydro if that's what you want, but there is some operator education involved if you want to get the most out of it for ground engaging implements. Shoving the pedal to the floor is the equivalent of pulling in a higher gear. Biggest mistake is to treat that pedal like a car accellerator.

Deere machines built from the 4x10 series on (4210, 4310, 4410 etc and newer 3x20, 4x20 series and the 110 TLB) with eHydro transmissions automatically optimize transmission control input to engine rpm with very impressive results. System is called LoadMatch. Basically the operator puts the pedal to the metal and the tractor does the rest, won't stall regardless of load.


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## richg

When you do decide to pull the trigger and buy, my advice is to be EXCEPTIONALLY careful about ads on Cragistlist and Feebay. There are a quadrillion scams going on with tractor sales on those sites and people get burned. I had some fun once with a scammer on Craigslist....it showed a gorgeous John Deere compact tractor and attachments at a ridiculously low price. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Anyway, I email them and they write back that the tractor is in Lancaster PA, which is about a 2-3 hour ride from my house with the trailer hooked up, no big deal. I said I will come with cash to pick up the tractor. They write back, no, we can't do that, you have to go to our "private auction" on ebay. There is no such thing according to Ebay rules. The URL was something like www.ebay.com/item123395747485858.ru.com   A scam. I reported the fake web site to Ebay who hacked it down. I then searched craigslist in various cities across the country, and the same flipping scam ad was running in Dallas, Seattle, Mobile etc.
Sorry to be so long winded aobut this...my suggestion would be to either buy from a reputable used equipment dealer, or a private seller who has proof of original purchase and you can inspect the unit prior to purchase. Good luck with your search.


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## RAY_PA

I saw that very same tractor, and the price made me pass by it, then I saw it on another classified also. I have found one, on CL, that I have verbally comitted to and will go look at it early next week. If its what the seller clamis it is, which I believe it is, I will be bringing it home.
Thanks for everyones help.


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## MasterMech

RAY_PA said:


> I saw that very same tractor, and the price made me pass by it, then I saw it on another classified also. I have found one, on CL, that I have verbally comitted to and will go look at it early next week. If its what the seller clamis it is, which I believe it is, I will be bringing it home.
> Thanks for everyones help.


 

No fair teasing us like that!  But I understand withholding the details for now. Please remember rule #1 once you get it home.  PICS OR IT DIDN"T HAPPEN!


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## nate379

I have been using one of these yesterday and man it's a nice machine. Perfect size, not too big, not too small and it flat out WORKS! I dug holes for 10 trees in about 15-20 mins and it's been a few years since I have run a backhoe so I'm a bit rusty.

http://www.deere.com/wps/dcom/en_US...s/tractor_loader_backhoe/110_tlb/110_tlb.page

43hp, 4x4, weighs about 7300lbs. 72" front bucket.

Dunno on new price, I have seen them go used for $25-30k, BUT it makes a CUT feel like a kids toy. This thing was meant to play in the dirt and has the weight and build strength to do so.

The only thing that I hated was the seat has to flip to go to the backhoe and it was a pain to get it to flip and lock in place.  A swivel seat would be better IMO.


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## MasterMech

nate379 said:


> I have been using one of these yesterday and man it's a nice machine. Perfect size, not too big, not too small and it flat out WORKS! I dug holes for 10 trees in about 15-20 mins and it's been a few years since I have run a backhoe so I'm a bit rusty.
> 
> http://www.deere.com/wps/dcom/en_US...s/tractor_loader_backhoe/110_tlb/110_tlb.page
> 
> 43hp, 4x4, weighs about 7300lbs. 72" front bucket.
> 
> Dunno on new price, I have seen them go used for $25-30k, BUT it makes a CUT feel like a kids toy. This thing was meant to play in the dirt and has the weight and build strength to do so.
> 
> The only thing that I hated was the seat has to flip to go to the backhoe and it was a pain to get it to flip and lock in place. A swivel seat would be better IMO.


30 _hydraulic _horsepower, 3 hydro pumps, the 110 _better_ dig.  A lot of machine for it's size. I've used that backhoe to crane 1400lb pumpkins into a small pickup!

Unfortunately  Deere no longer builds the 110 and has left the market to Kubota for now.  Liked the 110 better than the L39 or L48 but the M59 is just plain fearsome.

http://www.kubota.com/product/M59/M59.aspx


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## RAY_PA

Well, I finally found one that was just what I was looking for and in my price range. So I brought it home yesterday. I havent had much time for decent pics, but here is one after I got it loaded. 
Kubota L2550, 4X4, loader and backhoe. 360 hours!


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## flyingcow

Nice looking unit


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## Jags

Cool beans, Ray.  That is a mighty fine looking tractor.  Looks like it has its working boots on.  360 hrs is hardly broken in.  Get out there and get that thing dirty.


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## jeff_t

Outstanding.

Be careful with those ag tires on the lawn...


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## fossil

Sure looks like it's ready to go to work, Ray...have fun but be real careful.  Rick


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## Jags

Does that unit have a forward/reverse shuttle or is it strictly gears?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

Once you go *ORANGE*, you'll never go back


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## nate379

I find the R4 tires to be the best compromise for lawn use and having some traction.



jeff_t said:


> Outstanding.
> 
> Be careful with those ag tires on the lawn...


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## greg13

The trailer looks a tad light to handle the machine, I also recommend backing machines on (heavy side uphill on the ramps) I have watched Skidsteers do a back roll when loading. Trust me I load machines all week long.


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## MasterMech

greg13 said:


> The trailer looks a tad light to handle the machine, I also recommend backing machines on (heavy side uphill on the ramps) I have watched Skidsteers do a back roll when loading. Trust me I load machines all week long.


 
It takes a heck of a lot more to backflip a CUT than a skidsteer.  He's near that trailer's max capacity I'm sure (assuming 3500lb axles under it) but unless he moves that machine everyday with that trailer it should be fine.


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## nate379

Looks like a 7k trailer, tractor is less than 6k I'd imagine. (figure the trailer sprung weight is ~1000lbs)

Tractor data is saying 2250 to 3850 pounds but not sure what all that includes?

How I load all depends on what it is and what trailer.  I like to have the heavier section on the front of the trailer to give me tongue weight.


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## MasterMech

nate379 said:


> Looks like a 7k trailer, tractor is probably around 4500ish with the bucket and hoe.


 
Don't forget the weight of the trailer itself. Steel with a wood deck, prolly somewhere between 2200-2500. With a 4500lb load that puts him up to 6700-7000 total. 

Hey Ray, did ya weigh it? lol


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## nate379

That's why I said ~1000lbs of sprung weight though maybe I'm off a little bit. The axles, springs, tires, etc don't factor into that.
My trailer is a heavy duty 18ft, it weighs at around 2500lbs.  The ramps alone are almost 100lbs each.  The frame is 7" 1/4" wall C Channel, 1/4" diamond plate fenders (so I can drive over them with my Jeep which is too wide to fit between)

In any case, it's perfectly fine having that tractor on that trailer. I loaded 8 yards of dirt on my trailer a few weeks ago and it's fine. I was told after that it was 2000lbs a yard


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## RAY_PA

It is a shuttle shift, forward and reverse. 4 speed on the column, plus H and L range.
I was hoping for a tractor with turf tires, but I must say after a few hours playing on this one, I am very happy with the tires on it.
I didnt weigh the tractor, but cant imagine its more than 4000 lbs. That trailer is 7000lb GVW. aluminum feather lite. I highly doubt I am over max weight. And I can assure you we have hauled MUCH heavier loads with that trailer. The truck and trailer didnt even know it had a load on.


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## jeff_t

Is it a real shuttle shift/reverser? Really nice for loader work. My BIL has a hydrostatic JD, and it drove me nuts for a while. I was so used to jamming my foot to the floor on a real loader. Hydro is the complete opposite, you need to lift your right foot when it starts to dig. I'll take a foot throttle and a clucth on a tractor any day.

Yeah, Nate, a yard of dirt is usually around a ton. A 'yard' is often subjective, since it is kinda hard to actually measure. Depending on the material and moisture, a yard of good sand should weigh around 2500 lbs, give or take. A yard of good dry screened topsoil will be quite a bit less.


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## Jags

Shuttle shift is the cats meow for loader work.  Your productivity will be almost double that of a gear shift.


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## RAY_PA

I think its a real shuttle shift? 
Push the clutch in....lever forward for 'forward' ...push cluch in yank lever back for 'backward'.
Does have a NEUTRAL position inbetween F and R. and has a little saftey lock that you can lock it in N


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## Jags

RAY_PA said:


> I think its a real shuttle shift?
> Push the clutch in....lever forward for 'forward' ...push cluch in yank lever back for 'backward'.
> Does have a NEUTRAL position inbetween F and R. and has a little saftey lock that you can lock it in N


 

No - if you have to use the clutch to go from forward to reverse it is not a hydro shuttle.  Yours is a gear shuttle, but still better than having to grab the stick shift and actually select "R".

A true hydro shuttle requires the tractor to have a converter, much like an automatic transmission.  Most fork lifts are now of that design because of the constant Forward/Reverse.

Nothing wrong with a gear drive shuttle though.  Still makes loader work easier.


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## begreen

Yup, when I was looking at tractors in the Seattle area about a third of the craigslisting were this kind of scam. I reported several of them


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## MasterMech

Jags said:


> No - if you have to use the clutch to go from forward to reverse it is not a hydro shuttle. Yours is a gear shuttle, but still better than having to grab the stick shift and actually select "R".
> 
> A true hydro shuttle requires the tractor to have a converter, much like an automatic transmission. Most fork lifts are now of that design because of the constant Forward/Reverse.
> 
> Nothing wrong with a gear drive shuttle though. Still makes loader work easier.


 
Jags, check out the Deere 4410 with the ePowrReverser.  It's a true shuttle shift with a wet clutch instead of the converter.  All the fun and none of the heat!  Not sure if the newer 3x20/4x20 machines with the ePowrReverser trans have the same design.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

I don't think the Hydro shuttle is available on the 'L' models. By the time you figure out what features you want in your next tractor, you'll be ready to sell this for nearly as much as you paid for it.

FWIW . . . with a FEL, I don't think you need to back up the ramps. In fact, If the tires are not loaded, backing up the ramp with a FEL will requireengaging 4wd and lowering the bucket, which will be riding along the ground keeping you from flipping the other way


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## Jags

MasterMech said:


> Jags, check out the Deere 4410 with the ePowrReverser. It's a true shuttle shift with a wet clutch instead of the converter. All the fun and none of the heat! Not sure if the newer 3x20/4x20 machines with the ePowrReverser trans have the same design.


 

Oh, I can only imagine what is coming out of the newer machines.  Things do tend to get better with time.  A wet clutch could be just the ticket.  So with the wet clutch is it still a gear drive (positive connection) with none of the converter slip?  I am guessing so.  That would be pretty cool.


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## MasterMech

Jags said:


> Oh, I can only imagine what is coming out of the newer machines. Things do tend to get better with time. A wet clutch could be just the ticket. So with the wet clutch is it still a gear drive (positive connection) with none of the converter slip? I am guessing so. That would be pretty cool.


 
Exactly so. All grip, no slip.  I still like the eHydro's for all around use (LoadMatch system makes getting the most out of the hydro foolproof) but if maximum power to the ground is your primary concern, it's hard to beat a wet clutch setup for durability.


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