# Waiting is so hard to do... (new solar array)



## Slow1 (Oct 7, 2011)

Well, our solar array is up.  It is ready to go.  However it has to be inspected by the town electrical inspector, then the utility company before we can go live.  So of course all this week we have had clear sunny weather.  ARG!  now to be fair I knew we probably have 3-4 weeks left before we go live, but it is SO annoying!  Ug.

Anyway, this array is sized to provide for our full electrical needs (+/- 10%) on an annual average basis.  Grid tied so no batteries etc.  We've reduced our electrical use quite a bit over the last few years through conservation so hopefully we'll keep it down, but with the kids growing up I'm hoping that our actual performance of the array will be on the + side of that so we have wiggle room to grow.  Not to mention it should help speed up the payback time....

With all incentives/rebates/OPM and anticipated SREC revenue (using the MA mandated minimum values) we should see a payback within 7 years so the finances were acceptable to us.  It looks pretty good in my opinion too


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## jzr1 (Oct 7, 2011)

who did your install, I am having shw install in about a month, looks good


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## Slow1 (Oct 8, 2011)

I went with a local company called SolarFlair.  They have done well so far.  Nice clean work inside and out.  I can't judge the results yet - will have to give it a year or two before I can tell on that.  Their stated warranty beat out what others were offering and the rest of the package was quite competitive and the company has been in business for long enough to give at least some track record to look at.  (It doesn't hurt that I met the owner a number of years ago prior to my seriously looking into this project).

As I went through the process of selecting who would do the work I was surprised at how many companies are now serving this market.  It seems that it must not require a whole lot of expertise to claim to be a solar installer or reseller.  Even as late as when I was getting estimates on my roof (we ended up deciding to re-roof under where the panels were going so we wouldn't have to do it later requiring removal and re-installation of the panels) one of the companies I talked to did roofs, siding, gutters, windows, and you guessed it - solar installs.  

I'm sure the MA SREC system and the overall rebate system combined with the recent dip in costs has made the market attractive for many more people - thus bringing in a slew of folks wanting to jump into the business of providing for this demand to install.  I'm sure not all the new entrants to this business are bad, and in fact some may well turn out to be the best in a few years but sorting them out right now is likely to be a challenge.


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## begreen (Oct 8, 2011)

Wow, that is nice. Congratulations. What is the output? Looks like about 7KW?


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## Slow1 (Oct 8, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Wow, that is nice. Congratulations. What is the output? Looks like about 7KW?



35x190w gives us about 6.6kw DC rating.  Of course only time will tell what it actually gives us.  We have a bit of shading on the sides that I'd like to convert into stove fuel but I haven't convinced the wife that it is worth giving up the landscaping... yet.  

The shading puts us at about 83% solar access which is fine for the utility co who actually doesn't want us to exceed our current annual consumption estimates (funny that eh?).  I figure that after a year I can take down the shading on one side or the other to boost production by a few %'s for far less than adding panels.


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## peakbagger (Oct 8, 2011)

What brand of panels and inverter?

I liked the NH approach with mine. Once it was ready, the utility allowed me to "test it" while the paperwork got completed. ( I have a two way meter)


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## Slow1 (Oct 8, 2011)

Suntech panels with Solectria inverters.  

We don't have the two way meter yet so I suppose that may be part of the delay.  In any case, the system is literally locked up (big red clamps with locks) until the town inspector gets here... perhaps they know the temptation is too great for folks like me to 'just give it a try" they they don't.

This project has been in process for quite a long time - we made the commitment back in May so it has been a long wait already.  Somehow though it is harder when I see the panels every time I come home.  Of course it doesn't help that we made a payment when the panels went up as well.  Murphy's law says that once we get the final clearance and turn it all on we'll have a record period of rain, clouds, and "Irish" weather too I bet.  At least we'll be ready for next summer's production season.


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## Slow1 (Oct 12, 2011)

Finally!  Town electrical inspection done today... 

Just have the utility inspection to go...


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## Mad Tom (Oct 22, 2011)

I was wondering how much those panels weigh?. I would think that on a less well built home it may be to much weight.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 22, 2011)

Looks great.  With a 7 year payback, you must have a smile on your face every time you pull into the driveway and see it.  I wish the ROI in NY was that good.


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## Slow1 (Oct 22, 2011)

re: weight - I'm sure it is a factor for some folks, I am fortunate that our home is relatively new so it didn't take much of a formal review to determine that our roof was strong enough.  Besides weight one has to consider wind getting under the panels and lifting, thus the rails are bolted directly into the rafters - not something I had considered at first but makes sense once you think about it.

re: payback - Indeed I will be smiling once they are online!  Right now it is a bit of a tease, but I know - think longer term.... however it will be more "real" once I actually see the numbers working in my favor on the utility meter and bill.  I just received a monthly bill and it was the usual amount despite having the panels up for a couple weeks since we are still waiting on the utility co to put their meter on and give the ok to turn the system on.  I'm sure it will be before Thanksgiving


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## btuser (Oct 22, 2011)

Can't you just pull the meter and go rogue?

 Just a taste!  Just a bite!


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## begreen (Oct 22, 2011)

Without a consistent source of 60Hz 240v current, the inverter will shut down immediately.


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## btuser (Oct 22, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Without a consistent source of 60Hz 240v current, the inverter will shut down immediately.



So what happens when the power goes out?   And here I was thinking we were cutting the cord.  

I guess grid living is going to have to be it until we figure out cost-effective storage.


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## Slow1 (Oct 22, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> Can't you just pull the meter and go rogue?
> 
> Just a taste!  Just a bite!



Very tempting... and I think they know that.  Thus the rather large, bright red (why?), clamps that are locked over the switches that would enable the system.  Serious padlocks no less...

I expect that the solar meter going from 00000 KwHr to something greater might also give them a clue that I was running it too...


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## Slow1 (Oct 22, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well.... you see, this is the trade-off.  If I wanted a backup system I could have asked to design it that way with a different inverter and batteries.... that would bump the cost tremendously and frankly make the system not a financially viable option for me.  So... if the power goes off then I don't have power.

The optimal solution for emergency power for me is to simply get a generator and ignore the solar panels on the roof (other than another cut-off switch).  For the frequency that we lose power here that is the best option for me - and frankly it isn't worth it.  We don't lose power enough for me to justify the generator so certainly the batteries (with the added maintenance) aren't worth it to me. 

I believe that there is a natural tendency to jumble different problems and complicate things.  Emergency power and power generation are not necessarily related - they can be, but they aren't always the same thing.


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## begreen (Oct 22, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And what would happen if you weren't home and your array was feeding 6KW of 240v juice into the grid. That can kill a linesman, so they make very sure you can't island a grid-tied system. 

There is a system put out by Sunny that's pretty slick. It consists of two arrays and two inverters, one grid-tied and one battery bank tied. When the power goes out, it cuts the main line, then switches to the battery back up system. If all is good, and it is daylight, it tells the grid tied array that the battery back up is now online and switches the grid-tied system to parallel feed the house and help charge the batteries if necessary. It's an expensive system, but works pretty well from what I've read.


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## Slow1 (Oct 23, 2011)

Yup - I looked into some options to use the array as backup power but realized pretty quickly that although it is possible to do, what one really is doing is buying a whole house battery backup system and then having the solar panels charge it up.  Considering that I wouldn't buy a whole house battery backup system as my emergency power solution due to the cost (I'd go generator) why do it just because I have the arrays to charge it with?  Batteries are expensive (on an annual basis) even if never used since they have a relatively short shelf life compared to a good generator.  One set of batteries would more than pay for the generator with cash left over. If there was a power failure long enough to require charging the batteries and I wanted to ensure that the batteries could be charged I'd have to over-size my array significantly to cover worst case (winter charging situation, low sun days etc).  I also would want to have a larger battery bank to cover a period of cloudy days OR I'd have to have a generator anyway which brings the solution back full circle.  Basically my conclusion is that solar is a poor emergency power source.  Yeah, it seems a waste to have that generating capacity up there if the power fails, but that just isn't what it is designed for.


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## macmaine (Oct 23, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Looks great.  With a 7 year payback, you must have a smile on your face every time you pull into the driveway and see it.  I wish the ROI in NY was that good.




1 congratulations on the new solar panels
It makes me happy to see a new solar array
Good luck 

2 isn't it ironic that Mass and NY are next to each other and there are such significant 
Differences in pay back?!!
Why not have a national policy?


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 23, 2011)

macmaine said:
			
		

> isn't it ironic that Mass and NY are next to each other and there are such significant
> Differences in pay back?!!
> Why not have a national policy?



I was in line for a system when NY stopped writing approvals for an extended period.  In the year I was in line, they changed the financing rules and banks stopped participating in the program.  Subsequently, they reduced the incentive rates and the max system size.  I'll eventually do it anyway because it is the right thing to do.  I'd do it today with a 7 year payback like Slow1 did.

National policy is probably a topic for another thread.  Once you get beyond a single utility's service area, this would get complicated real fast with our current rate payer fee structure.  Even within individual states, there are issues with this.


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## Slow1 (Nov 17, 2011)

FINALLY!  The wait is over.

Yesterday the utility company swapped out our meter with a net  meter and we are up and running today.  Of course it is a rainy overcast day... knew that would happen but tomorrow should be sunny 

So it only took about 5 weeks from the time the array was "done" to actually have it operational... So I have one more thing to be thankful for this Thanksgiving eh?

Looking forward to seeing how well it performs vs expectations.  This morning despite enough clouds to prevent shadows it did generate over a Kwhr of power in the 2hrs it was running before I left for work... peanuts in terms of power, but better than nothing...


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## macmaine (Nov 19, 2011)

Kick back and enjoy the ride
Nice Sunny day up here 
Hope you got  a few KW today!

Tom


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## Slow1 (Nov 19, 2011)

macmaine said:
			
		

> Kick back and enjoy the ride
> Nice Sunny day up here
> Hope you got  a few KW today!
> 
> Tom



Indeed.... nice sunny day here too for the most part.  Three days into it - two sunny, one miserably one.  Actually got to see the meter run backwards today as I was home and (of course) obsessing with the numbers.  It rolled on backwards (nice digital meter) and since it was at zero when installed on Wednesday it ended up flipping over to 99999 which I thought was odd given that being digital you would think it could handle the concept of a negative number.  Oh well, I just hope that if it happens to be in that state at billing cycle time their billing software is smart enough to handle it!


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## bpirger (Nov 20, 2011)

So how are the panels producing in the sun?  Beautiful indeed!  How does the installation assure no leaks with the bolts to the rafters?


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## begreen (Nov 20, 2011)

Bolting to the rafters through composition roofing is no big deal. There's little opportunity for leakage around the bolt thread. You drill the pilot hole, then fill with a glob of sealant, then bolt the mount. 

http://www.quickmountpv.com/products/composition-mount.html#page=overview


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## Slow1 (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks BeGreen - I honestly didn't know how they did it, but I know the company came well recommended, they are well established, and stand behind their work.  Leakage from the mountings was/is not a major concern for me really.

I'm more concerned about the system performing up to spec and as projected.  Only time will tell if the production estimates work out to be on target - if it produces more than estimated that will be a nice bonus.  The thing is that since this relies on the weather it will take some significant time before we'll know if it really will produce as anticipated.

Anyway, so far it is a fun set of stats to follow. I'm out of town for a week - annoying in a way but perhaps good too as it will keep me from obsessing as much.  Mix of weather expected, more clouds than sun though so not expecting a whole lot, better get used to that is it is getting into December after all.

Now I just have to wait to get my first Mwhr collected so that I can sell an SREC... that's the next landmark for me.  At this rate it will be a few months I suppose, but at least I have something to look forward to.


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## SolarBrian (Nov 23, 2011)

Congrats on the new PV system!

So, do you have a solrenview link so we can watch how your system is performing?


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## Slow1 (Nov 23, 2011)

SolarBrian said:
			
		

> Congrats on the new PV system!
> 
> So, do you have a solrenview link so we can watch how your system is performing?



No - I choose not to pay the extra $'s for their monitoring package.  It came out to about $500/year over the initial 5 year license and frankly for that I can self report each month for the SRECs.  Yes the web monitoring is really nice and all but I think for a system of my size the cost is too much.

Of course as I sit here out of town wondering how it is doing a week after install I wish I had the remote monitoring...


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## mellow (Nov 23, 2011)

Cant you hook up a Ted 5000 to it to monitor output?

http://www.theenergydetective.com/ted-5000


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## SolarBrian (Nov 23, 2011)

Wow, that is expensive! I had no idea. My installer included Solrenview 5 year montoring on the install. When I started the contract, it was optional and I don't remember the exact price, but it wasn't $500 a year. I thought it was something like $200 for the internet connection hardware and $20 a year for web based monitoring! Before I signed the final contract, my installer (New England Breeze) decided to include solrenview as standard on all their installs so they could monitor the health. So it ended up costing me nothing.

But if it is that expensive, you are right, for cheap I would rather connect a low power PC to the serial port on the inverter and remote into that PC to check the status remotely.

Anyway here's a link to my system. It is fun to play with the excel logs. 
http://solrenview.com/cgi-bin/CGIhandler.cgi?&sort=pvi_IDs&cond=site_ID=199


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## mbcijim (Nov 23, 2011)

Yes the monitoring is that expensive.  Commercial systems it's significantly more for the SAME THING!  
Sliding scale based on the size of your system, like that has anything to do with how many KW you're generating.


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## Slow1 (Nov 23, 2011)

I have bought a TED to monitor with - I just have to get it installed.  A friend who is an electrician is going to assist when he gets a chance...  Yes I COULD do it myself I'm sure, but when it comes to messing with the breaker box I'd rather have expert advice on hand.  TED is a much more economical option and gives me far more information (i.e. my household consumption data as well as solar production).  I can also monitor my individual inverters using the diagnostic software that I picked up from a thread in another forum for minute to minute DC and AC voltages etc.

I do rather wish that they didn't consider the monitoring SW a revenue stream but it seems that is what the market will bear for the time being.  I imagine that as the cost of the HW and installs go down this too will get pushed down - it almost has to but then again the same was said in the PC world for OS and applications and look at the market now - if you purchase a PC and license all the software at retail you will pay more for the OS and office Productivity SW than the HW in general.  Whatever makes their business work.

However - advice to anyone shopping for a PV system: Consider the monitoring options in your inverter selection as this could be a significant cost going forward and not all companies have the same options or cost structures.


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## SolarBrian (Nov 30, 2011)

Solrenview may not be as expensive as you think. I emailed them and here is their reply (lifetime solrenview for residential customers, not sure of the up front cost):

From: Brad Sherman <brad@solren.com>
Date: November 30, 2011 10:04:17 AM EST
To: Brian
Cc: Allison MacHaffie <allison.machaffie@solren.com>
Subject: RE: Solrenview Lite Price
Hi Brian,
Good news â€“ moving forward all SolrenView sites for residential systems contain unlimited service. There will not be further service charges after the first 5 years. 

Regards, 

Brad Sherman
Technical Sales

Solectria Renewables, LLC
360 Merrimack St.
Building 9, Floor 2
Lawrence, MA 01843
Tel 978-683-9700 ext. 155
Mobile 978-407-6722
Fax 978-683-9702
brad@solren.com
www.solren.com 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE

This message and its attachments (if any) may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information and it is intended
only for the use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any transmission error.

If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not use, disseminate, copy it in 
any form or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error, please, delete it (and any copies of it) 
and kindly inform the sender, of this e-mail.


From: Brian 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:30 PM
To: natalie@solren.com
Subject: Solrenview Lite Price

Hi Natalie,
Iâ€™m currently under contract for a 5 year solrenview Lite. I was just curious what the pricing is to extend my solrenview usage after my contract is up?

Thanks,
Brian
http://www.solrenview.com/cgi-bin/cgihandler.cgi?&sort=pvi_IDs&cond=site_ID=199


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## Slow1 (Nov 30, 2011)

Interesting.. will perhaps have to look into that.  Then again, I've already purchased the TED so any additional cost is more than I'm likely to want to spend now.  

Your "Solenview Lite" - does that include the automatic SREC reporting?


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## SolarBrian (Dec 1, 2011)

Not that I'm aware of. I'm not eligible for SRECs since I installed my system with the previous rebate incentive. "Lite" was the term I pulled from an old Solrenview presentation I found online. Notice Brad says "all residential systems" so I'm assuming yours would fall into that category. Its worth checking into, an email to Brad is free!


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## Mr. Kelly (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey Slow1,

Congrats on your system!  We have Solar City coming soon to do a site analysis for our potential system.

What was your company's financing expectations?  Did you have to pay for your system outright, or did they have alternative funding options?

Solar City offers a lease program:  They own the system, you benefit from the power it produces.  Still trying to figure out whether to lease or buy.  Any thoughts?


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## Slow1 (Dec 4, 2011)

Mr. Kelly said:
			
		

> Hey Slow1,
> 
> Congrats on your system!  We have Solar City coming soon to do a site analysis for our potential system.
> 
> ...



I have lots of thoughts on that subject... My bias is very heavy towards ownership.  I did get quotes and options from several companies (including Solar City) so I feel I am quite familiar with the various options available (at least those available about 9 months ago - I'm sure the marketing of options have changed but the fundamentals hasn't).

Bottom line - I bought the system because it pays back in 5-8 years, then I still own the system and benefit from not only the power but from the SRECs until the 10 year point when who knows if there will be an SREC market in MA anymore.  PM me for gory details if you want to have an email conversation on it.

As to up-front costs - there are some excellent financing terms available.  Assuming you have reasonable credit and are on a major MA utility you can likely qualify for a HEAT loan to help finance up to 15K of the project for 8 years at 0% - can't beat that.  In many cases that may be almost all of your "after rebate and federal/state tax incentive, first year returns up front cost."  To get the 30% federal amount financed many of the panel vendors are offering to do one year same as cash financing to help cover that.  Thus you can own the system with very easy terms you see - now those companies looking to lease the systems won't advertise this to you, nor will they explain the SREC market to you (the fact that in MA it has a regulatory minimum value for the next 10 years).  

Also any decent installer who sells you the system to own will do all the paperwork to set up your SREC account and handle all the rebate processing so the "it is complicated and confusing" argument shouldn't apply either (I had one lease co present that as an argument for why the lease was superior). 

Maintenance and insurance is another consideration for lease vs own.  My installer gives a 10 year warranty so that takes care of maintenance.  Granted system has a 25-35 year expected service life, but the vast majority of issues should be well shaken out in that first 10 years.  When an inverter goes after that (and they will, I have 2) I have budgeted for it and will deal with it, it isn't that complex really, it is just a cost to plan for.  All in all there really aren't that many parts to maintain - nothing moves (no wear items) and nothing to actually "do" per se to keep it running.  Insurance?  I added to my homeowners policy and it increased my annual premiums by approx $80/year as I recall.  Not a whole lot all things considered, again just added that line item into the payback spreadsheet and it added a couple months to the time.

Consider selling your home. If you have a leased system you present the new buyers with the need to assume a contract they didn't negotiate.  If you own the system you present them with a history of power production (value) and income stream from SRECs (if still in the 10 year period).  Which is likely to be an easier sell?  Which is likely to add more value to your home?  Yeah, I know buyers aren't all rational, but you would have to be pretty irrational to believe the lease contract has a higher value if you are buying a home with a system already installed.

I am sure there are cases where a lease (depending on the terms of course) may be the best option.  However I did not find one that met my needs.  I'm a long term investor and have been looking to do solar for a number of years (ever since buying this house 12 years ago actually - the roof screamed for it as it is about 2* off from ideal in both pitch and orientation).  I decided to go for it when I could find a 5 year payback option (that is my general breakpoint - stove install included). 

Oh well - sorry for the high verbosity, but it really isn't a short answer sort of topic for me


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## Mr. Kelly (Dec 4, 2011)

Thank you, Slow1.

Your verbosity and lack of a short answer are highly appreciated!

You've given me a lot to think about.  

Our initial thought was, "Well, why would we want to assume the _maintenance _on a system like that?"  If we think about it, it couldn't be any worse than maintaining any household system, i.e., well pump, boiler, etc..  Any idea how much an inverter install runs???

Solar City offers a 2 week cancellation policy for their initial sign-up contract, which is where we're at.  I may have to consider these options carefully, and might have a good mind to hit the ball back in their court. 

Of course, we would have to pass their 80% solar exposure spec in order for the contract to be considered anyway (if it doesn't pass, the contract is null and you basically start over with reexamined expectations).

I never once considered actually buying the system, because A)  up front costs were seemingly prohibitive  B) we're poor   C) we've had no knowledge of alternative financing (and Solar City wasn't too eager to push it).   Your alternative suggestions cast a doubt on my decision to lease.

For that... I thank you!

By the way, where in MA are you?   We're in Shirley.


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## Slow1 (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm in Milford.  Basically if you don't pass the 80% mark then you may as well not do the project - the numbers won't work out too well in most cases anyway.  You also won't qualify for the CEC rebates.

Realize that if you fall under "moderate income" or "moderate home value" you qualify for additional Mass CEC rebates too - so take a system that may have an initial cost of 32K, the base CEC rebate may be 4K, but if you qualify for the moderate income/home value rebate you can knock another 5K(?) off the top, bringing it down to 23K, then you take the Mass state tax rebate of 1K off and the Federal 30% and you are down to a first year outlay of about 15.4K, if you can then get that HEAT loan for 15K you are left with $400 out of pocket, then you have 8 years to pay back that (at 0% interest).  If you have a 10 year warranty to cover maintenance then you shouldn't have any expenses.  That system should generate on the order of 6-7 Mwh/year, assume 6 for calculations - at the MA minimum of $300/SREC (less 7% fees) you net about $1,674/year to service that loan.  While this isn't quite enough to fully pay the loan (about $200/yr short) , consider that  you are also offsetting about $1,000 worth of electricity per year so apply that savings toward the loan and you are all set.  Hmm... I imagine none of the lease folks mentioned that either?   (Note that my rebate numbers are 'guestimates' get a qualified person to work up the actual rebates you qualify for... )

 Oh - and once the project is paid for you continue getting the SRECs for a while too... (where do you think the lease sellers make their money?) That can pay for your eventual inverter replacement.  

On that subject - I don't actually know what it will cost when the time comes.  In today's dollars I estimate on the order of $3K, but there are several factors that may affect this.  I fully expect that in the next 10 years or so the efficiency/technology of the inverters will likely change so there may be different options out there.  I may well replace my two with a single better model, or perhaps micro inverters may have market dominance and I may switch to that direction - high labor cost at that time?  Too hard to predict.  However that is the number I dropped into my calculations.


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## Mr. Kelly (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for your generous willingness to help in our rather complicated pursuit of sustainable energy!

For the most part, it's really now a matter of research, and a little persistence, before we move forward.

The biggest roadblock now seems to be -  we won't qualify for the state rebate since we won't get the exposure required...  Well, the fellow that came here suggested we consider knocking out a bunch of trees to gain that exposure.   We shook our heads and said, "No way".  We came out here for the natural beauty, and are not yet willing to mess with that, considering that the trees in question are these fabulous coniferous trees that shroud and beautify the entire front of our property. 

The Solar City fellow still conveyed that he thought we'd still be in reasonable financial shape to get 60-70% of electric offset (estimate), with the southern exposure that we have, given that the trees in question will be the biggest detriment in the winter when the sun is low.  So, it's a matter of whether the upfront costs will make enough of a dent in our electric usage to make the conversion to solar worthwhile, mostly from an environmental perspective.  From a financial perspective, it won't be as good an investment. 

One more thing - CEC rebate and SREC credits... not related, right?  Hope not.  Still would be good to qualify for one, if not the other.  The Solar City guy said that that CEC is the smallest of all of the rebates, and suggested we'd still benefit from going solar.


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