# Bless Me Father For I Have Sinned



## Battenkiller (Oct 24, 2011)

As many of you know, I'm getting booted out of here in a month.  Still don't know where we'll land, but I have to keep moving.  While packing up the shop I was faced with either saving a butt load of fuglies and short boards left over from years of hoarding, or just burning them and not have to worry about moving them.

Went through the first round at this point, the stuff that was too nice to burn but not quite nice enough to turn - stuff that's been sitting in bins under various benches for up to 20 years now.  Talk about seasoned!  Anyway, I pulled out a bin and inside were several pieces of pressure treated 2x4s.  I vacillated, then said "WTF... throw them in and see what happens".  Stove's an old dragon, so it's not like I'm gonna kill the cat (except maybe the outside cat)


About an hour later I went down to take a look, and when I lifted the load door there was the most spectacular display of pretty greenish-blue flames I've ever seen.  Copper ions, I'm guessing.

So crucify me, but I just had to confess.  I promise I won't burn any more, I really do promise.

Of course, there's about 200 pounds of MDF scrap floating around the place and a mountain of ply scrap I had on hand for small projects.  Can I be strong and resist temptation, or will I cave and kill two birds with one stone?  Please chew me out harshly so I can be pure.  I hate being a burn sinner.


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## begreen (Oct 24, 2011)

Bummer BK. Have you been able to work out a buy on new digs?

As for the mdf scrap, put a craigslist for free sign on it and let it be recycled by someone else.


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## RNLA (Oct 24, 2011)

While I do not agree with burning that junk I can see where your coming from. I would refrain or stop posting about it. I use to burn some real crappy wood and paper garbage but then I was uneducated as well. As an old writer said "better to keep your mouth shut and let people wonder if you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt." Not throwing stones, just saying "bad BK"


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## Gasifier (Oct 25, 2011)

Batten,

Where is just outside the blue line?   Where do you live? I did not know you were going to have to move. Sorry to hear that. The only thing I can say to that is it is an opportunity as well. Put all of your efforts into finding a good place. Doesn't have to be better. Or as good. Although it very well may be. Wherever it is, it will be what you make of it. Good luck my friend.


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## weatherguy (Oct 25, 2011)

What ever happened with that house you were looking at by the lake?


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## smokinj (Oct 25, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> As many of you know, I'm getting booted out of here in a month.  Still don't know where we'll land, but I have to keep moving.  While packing up the shop I was faced with either saving a butt load of fuglies and short boards left over from years of hoarding, or just burning them and not have to worry about moving them.
> 
> Went through the first round at this point, the stuff that was too nice to burn but not quite nice enough to turn - stuff that's been sitting in bins under various benches for up to 20 years now.  Talk about seasoned!  Anyway, I pulled out a bin and inside were several pieces of pressure treated 2x4s.  I vacillated, then said "WTF... throw them in and see what happens".  Stove's an old dragon, so it's not like I'm gonna kill the cat (except maybe the outside cat)
> 
> ...





BURN BABY BURN!


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## Battenkiller (Oct 25, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Bummer BK. Have you been able to work out a buy on new digs?
> 
> As for the mdf scrap, put a craigslist for free sign on it and let it be recycled by someone else.



BG the house hunt has been a horrible experience. I thought if we ever ended up getting our own place it'd be the happiest time of our lives. The housing market just sucks now. The sellers are upset that they missed the bubble, but they still want in on a piece of it.  Prices are supposed to be depressed but are still very high.  

The buyers are wary as a 10-point buck in hunting season and they all (including me) are looking for pre-bubble prices and they aren't to be had.  Only thing good is the incredibly low interest rates, but what use is that if there's nothing out there worth mortgaging?

Anyway, a home just got listed and we were the first to see it. We love it, and the price is reasonable and taxes are unusually low.  USDA financing means no money down, so I can save that dough for finishing the basement and building a garage... OK... outside shop lol.  Not near a lake, but it's on over 4 acres and it has a sweet pond.  We are placing an offer tomorrow.


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## gzecc (Oct 25, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

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Batten, its true there is are a lot of properties on the market that are priced too high. This is what is called buying a listing. The real estate agent gets the listing by telling the seller they can get an unrealistic price for their house.
There are however some good buys that come up in every market. Keep looking in the towns you want, and only look at new (not listed in the last 5 yrs)listing.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 25, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Not near a lake, but it's on over 4 acres and it has a sweet pond.  We are placing an offer tomorrow.



Sounds sweet BK, good luck.  Mortgage rates under 4% almost make up for our property tax rate :shut:


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## firefighterjake (Oct 25, 2011)

Good luck on the offer . . . there are some folks out there that are willing to deal . . . my sister and brother-in-law just put in an offer on a place in Wasilla, Alaska . . . this after they've rented out a place in Portage for years.


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## joecool85 (Oct 25, 2011)

Not sure where you live, but there is a nice 3 bedroom, 1.5 bath place with 1.2 acres and a 2 bay garage for $75k here in town.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 25, 2011)

I live just outside the Blue Line, in Saratoga Springs, NY.  The Blue Line is the name for the boundary of the Adirondack Park in New York, my favorite place to be in the world.  If we get this place we will be closer... but still be just outside the boundary line.  At least I'll be able to hike across from there.

BTW I don't know how or why this thread landed in the Wood Shed, but the direction it's taken makes it more suitable for the Inglenook forum.  Just wanted to report that after all these years I finally know what pressure-treated wood looks like when it burns.  It's very pretty, but don't try it at home, K?


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## gzecc (Oct 25, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> I live just outside the Blue Line, in Saratoga Springs, NY.  The Blue Line is the name for the boundary of the Adirondack Park in New York, my favorite place to be in the world.  If we get this place we will be closer... but still be just outside the boundary line.  At least I'll be able to hike across from there.
> 
> BTW I don't know how or why this thread landed in the Wood Shed, but the direction it's taken makes it more suitable for the Inglenook forum.  Just wanted to report that after all these years I finally know what pressure-treated wood looks like when it burns.  It's very pretty, but don't try it at home, K?


I assumed the blue line was the Mason Dixon line or the supposed north / south civil war divide.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 25, 2011)

gzecc said:
			
		

> I assumed the blue line was the Mason Dixon line or the supposed north / south civil war divide.



Might as well be.  Entirely different subset of humanity up that way, and they don't cotton to no city folk, 'cept maybe to empty the wallets of the tourists.  Needless to say, a guy like me fits in fine up there.  :coolsmile:


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## Jags (Oct 25, 2011)

Good luck on the offer BK.  And DON'T be touching the handle of that stove and PT wood at the same time. (consider yourself scolded).


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## Battenkiller (Oct 25, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> Good luck on the offer BK.  And DON'T be touching the handle of that stove and PT wood at the same time. (consider yourself scolded).



 :red: 

Yes sir.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 25, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Please chew me out harshly so I can be pure.  I hate being a burn sinner.


You frickin' knucklehead!! What the hell were you thinking?!!


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 25, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Anyway, a home just got listed and we were the first to see it. We love it, and the price is reasonable and *taxes are unusually low. *



Probably a reason, just as probably that reason is about to expire. Though property taxes inside the blue line a usually less than places S or E of it.

Do NOT go by the broker or even the homeowner when figuring taxes. Go to the Man and get it straight from the horse's mouth. Better than a suprise later.

BTW, how far inside the line would you go and still be able to commute for work?

Jimbo


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## DiscoInferno (Oct 25, 2011)

I can tell you what PT lumber smells like when it burns, as we quite stupidly burned some in a bonfire when I was a teenager.  It was windy, and I suspect it shaved a few years off my life right there and then.  Really, really nasty stuff.


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## Danno77 (Oct 25, 2011)

BK. come to the Midwest. I can find you an equally eqiped house and property for a third of what you are looking to spend. I'll even let you oven dry splits in the wifey's new convection oven.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 26, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Though property taxes inside the blue line a usually less than places S or E of it.



That is true now but I wonder how long it will last.  1.7% of an arguably high assessed value inside the line compared to 3.2% 90 miles away at home.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 26, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> BK. come to the Midwest. I can find you an equally eqiped house and property for a third of what you are looking to spend. I'll even let you oven dry splits in the wifey's new convection oven.



Really?  I'm looking to spend $150K on this place.  Taxes (looked them up) are $2835 with the STAR school tax assessment reduction.  How cheap are you out that way?

I live in a tough area.  We are 10 minutes away from the new AMD chip plant, and that alone is keeping properties up to peak bubble levels and it isn't even close too being operational yet.  NY is basically broke, so poor school districts that once counted on major state aid have had no choice but to tax the poor more or close the schools down.  USDA RD financing is not available even in some obviously rural settings.  

If it wasn't for the wife's job and the two grandkids nearby, I think we'd move to NC or even further south.  As it is, this place is affordable (barely) and is 30 minute drive for the wife, so it is a good fit for us in this area.  But the offer went in early this afternoon and we still haven't heard a word, so I'm not optimistic at all.

That's why the good Lord inventeth scotch whisky.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 26, 2011)

What is the town tax rate?  That is relatively cheap if the assessment is 150K.  Are you sure the assessment isn't more like $100K?  Most towns are getting pretty quick at reassessing after a closing.


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## Danno77 (Oct 26, 2011)

Well, uhhhh, if I say "Yes, really" would that make you come out to look? LoL.

Probably not 1/3, but cheap as you will find anywhere! Just don't expect to be close to anything! Did you post the specs on the house you are looking at? Like bedrooms, baths, sq ft, etc? Well, on second thought, did you say 6 acres? You might be able to do that if it's not great farmland or good hunting ground around here.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 26, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> What is the town tax rate?  That is relatively cheap if the assessment is 150K.  Are you sure the assessment isn't more like $100K?  Most towns are getting pretty quick at reassessing after a closing.



I'm told they can't just reassess an individual home around here, that they have to do it by the entire area, but I know very little about house taxes since this is our first place.  Lots of cheaper homes all around it, and the area was just reassessed last year by about 29% of so.  House is assessed right now at $99K, with a $27K STAR reduction on the school taxes.  Lady BK does all the number crunching on the taxes, so I can't tell you all the rates, but the school taxes are the big one.  Property taxes out that way are almost nil.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 26, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> Well, uhhhh, if I say "Yes, really" would that make you come out to look?



Geez, Danno, if you really want me to come out and help you figure out your walnut, all you have to do is invite me.  :lol:


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## thewoodlands (Oct 26, 2011)

BK, is the new home in the Charlotte Valley School District?


zap


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 26, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> I'm told they can't just reassess an individual home around here, that they have to do it by the entire area



I'd check on that.  Most towns now go on market value and there is no better estimate than the closing that just happened.  All of the towns here watch the closings.  Funny thing though, they only automatically raise, you have to fight if you paid less than the assessment.  I'm waiting for the day the towns inside the blue line go to the 3%+ norm.  NY really needs to get a handle on property taxes.


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## Danno77 (Oct 26, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

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That's when you see contracts for "10,000 plus cash in hand." being submitted to the courthouse, but different contracts in the hands of the seller and buyers. I'm no lawyer, so these things are beyond me, but from looking at abstracts on historic properties, that seems to be quite common. Probably only works for cash sales, not ones with bank loans because of their requirements.


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## jimbom (Oct 26, 2011)

DiscoInferno said:
			
		

> I can tell you what PT lumber smells like when it burns, as we quite stupidly burned some in a bonfire when I was a teenager.  It was windy, and I suspect it shaved a few years off my life right there and then.  Really, really nasty stuff.



Sad, but the silver lining is you won't die of termites.


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## joecool85 (Oct 26, 2011)

For 150k here in Central Maine you could get a nice 2,000sq ft house with 10+ acres and a 2 or 3 bay garage.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 26, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

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LOL, now see? TFF

Anyway . . . From a purely theoretical standpoint, 'welcome stranger' is illegal here in NY. But very difficult to prove. If you think you have it figured out, you may want to read this http://www.tax.ny.gov/pubs_and_bulls/orpts/legal_opinions/v10/60.htm

My recommendation is to go talk to the Assessor. Make sure that the ONLY exemption for the current owner is the STaR exemption. The amount you gave was for the basic, not the enhanced. Find out about anticipated future 'pops' in expenditures. School need a new building? County building a new jail?

Also, take a look at the LEVY INCREASE for the past 7 years for the Town, the County, and the School. If by some chance the house is in an incorporated Village, look at those too. Do NOT look at the tax rate increase/decrease. Especially if the Town is keeping Assessments up to date, any attempts at an annual rate comparison will be meaningless.

While I agree with SAW that NY taxes suck, in 98% of cases is it NOT because of the market value of the property nor the Assessment. We simply spend way more money per student, per mile of road, and per Welfare recipient than any other state.

Unsustainable, is, I think, the word that fits here.


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## Woody Stover (Oct 26, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

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And with that green hue to his skin, he's half way to a Frankenstein Halloween costume.


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## joecool85 (Oct 26, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> And with that green hue to his skin, he's half way to a Frankenstein Halloween costume.



Unfortunately, it probably only colored his lungs and maybe liver.


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 26, 2011)

No matter what you are assessed, you can still go to the board of review. For example, we put up a barn last year and it cost $5,600 but were assessed for a value of $11,000. Crazy! So I just went to the board of review and took along paperwork and pictures and got the assessment back to where it should have been. No charge.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 26, 2011)

"Why did you raise my assessment from $99K to $150K"
"Because that is what you paid for it"
"But that raised my tax bill by $1500 compared to what the previous owner was paying"
"Yep.  Next please"


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## joecool85 (Oct 26, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> "Why did you raise my assessment from $99K to $150K"
> "Because that is what you paid for it"
> "But that raised my tax bill by $1500 compared to what the previous owner was paying"
> "Yep.  Next please"



I dunno, we paid $54K for our house and land 3 years ago and it was appraised at $75K but the town only assesses it as $29K.  So needless to say, our taxes are low, something like $400/yr or so if I recall correctly - it's rolled into our mortgage so I don't remember the exact figure.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 26, 2011)

joecool85 said:
			
		

> I dunno, we paid $54K for our house and land 3 years ago and it was appraised at $75K but the town only assesses it as $29K.  So needless to say, our taxes are low, something like $400/yr or so



I highly doubt that would happen here.  A lot of people get into trouble when they buy a house because they don't know it is coming.  The tax bill on the last house I sold went up 4 grand when I sold it.

Don't mean to get off in the weeds here BK, just be careful when you are shopping not to assume that what the seller is paying in taxes is what you are going to pay.  It can make a big difference in your monthly cash flow.


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## DiscoInferno (Oct 26, 2011)

In MD now (or at least in my county) sellers have to estimate what the taxes will be based on the selling price, not based on what they currently pay.  The housing bubble and the state restriction on year-year increases (which doesn't apply when it changes hands) meant that there was (and still is) often a large mismatch between what a seller was paying vs. what the new buyer would pay.


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## joecool85 (Oct 26, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> I highly doubt that would happen here.  A lot of people get into trouble when they buy a house because they don't know it is coming.  The tax bill on the last house I sold went up 4 grand when I sold it.
> 
> Don't mean to get off in the weeds here BK, just be careful when you are shopping not to assume that what the seller is paying in taxes is what you are going to pay.  It can make a big difference in your monthly cash flow.



It should be noted that for the first year we did pay more than what the previous owner was paying due to Homesteaders Exemption not kicking in till after 1 year of ownership.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 26, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> "Why did you raise my assessment from $99K to $150K"
> "Because that is what you paid for it"
> "But that raised my tax bill by $1500 compared to what the previous owner was paying"
> "Yep.  Next please"



Actually quite simple in NY

Determine market value on July 1 of preceeding year.

Multiply that by:

1)Equalization rate
2)RAR (residential portion of equalization rate)
3)Uniform percent of value

In places where properties have been reappraised less than 40 years ago, all three numbers above will be similar. The result of this multiplication is about where you should be assessed. If this number is substantially higher than the assessment currently is of the house you are thinking of buying, that may be why the taxes are advertised as low on this house.


And SAW? maybe you need better representation ;-)  Let me know.

Jimbo


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## Danno77 (Oct 26, 2011)

I have a rule about letting guys named "Jimbo" represent me. Please tell me your business cards say "James" ,lol.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 26, 2011)

LOL Danno, and Professional Assessor too. But I don't work outside NY so yer on your own Dude


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## Battenkiller (Oct 26, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Actually quite simple in NY
> 
> Determine market value on July 1 of preceeding year.
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Heck, I might need you to represent me... and I don't care if your name is "Jumbo", as long as I know what my taxes will really be. ;-) 

BTW the taxes weren't advertised as being low, just about 30-50% lower than most similarly priced/sized homes we've looked at.

Hey mods... let's move this over to the Nook, eh?  I'd hate to have to start this discussion up all over again with a new thread, but it never really was a firewood-related topic in the first place.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 26, 2011)

BK - Can you go as far as say Wells or NorthCreek? Or is that too far of a drive?

Oh, yeah I forgot what we were talking about.

I can't say I've never burned PT, but I'm not sure that having the chemicals leach into the kids water supply is any better than putting it in their lungs through your wood fire. Many here will deny this, but. . . inhalants from cigarettes contain worse chemicals than burning up some PT near you. Unless its a PTCruiser.

Just sayin'


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## fossil (Oct 26, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> ...Hey mods... let's move this over to the Nook, eh?  I'd hate to have to start this discussion up all over again with a new thread, but it never really was a firewood-related topic in the first place.



As you wish.  Hang on, here we go.........


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## Jags (Oct 26, 2011)

fossil said:
			
		

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That made me dizzy :ahhh:


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## Battenkiller (Oct 26, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Well, I was dizzy already. Now I feel kinda normal.  %-P


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## fossil (Oct 26, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> ...Now I feel kinda normal.  %-P



Can you describe that?  I'm not sure I've ever felt that way...but I want to be able to recognize it if it ever happens.   :roll:


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## BrotherBart (Oct 26, 2011)

"I may not be normal, but nobody is."

 - Willie Nelson


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 26, 2011)

Dizzy??

Get bizzy!!

http://youtu.be/i6UfbeQ42jU



Seems like even a dizzy blonde would'a known there was any easier way to get dinner and a movie.[


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## GAMMA RAY (Oct 26, 2011)

For drinking a bottle of hot sauce I better be getting more than freakin dinner and a movie....  
It was prolly Coors Lite in that bottle.... ;-)


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## btuser (Oct 26, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> BURN BABY BURN!



I heard somebody say.....


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## GAMMA RAY (Oct 26, 2011)

BK is sayin to himself right now....
"WTF have they done to my thread?"  :shut:  >:-(  :lol:


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## Delta-T (Oct 26, 2011)

plenty room in my neighborhood for a fine, upstanding citzen like yourself BK. We have army surplus store within walking distance...very nice feature. Public pool that does not turn blue when you pee in it. ALso many nice modern things like water that comes from the faucet, lights (electric), and stove/oven combo.....sweet. You let me know, I'll scout around for "vacant" places.


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## hossthehermit (Oct 26, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

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Standard language in Maine used to be "For the sum of one dollar and other valuable considerations". But back to the original subject, people down east and up the County burn old railroad ties,there's  plenty of 'em, they're cheap, and they sure throw some wicked heat. Leastways that's what I hear.


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## begreen (Oct 26, 2011)

Yahoos like these give woodburners a bad name. Railroad ties are deeply infused with creosote and pentachlorophenol. Great idea to add some more creosote to your system and gas out your neighbors. There is a Darwin award in this somewhere. Or a lawsuit.


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 27, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> And SAW? maybe you need better representation ;-)  Let me know.
> 
> Jimbo



All good Jimbo.  I buy the fixer uppers/rebuildables.  Head down to the assessors office as soon as I close to get them to drop the assessment to what I paid.


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## Danno77 (Oct 27, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Yahoos like these give woodburners a bad name. Railroad ties are deeply infused with creosote and pentachlorophenol. Great idea to add some more creosote to your system and gas out your neighbors. There is a Darwin award in this somewhere. Or a lawsuit.


Yeah, you tell him. Who does this OP think he is? Some people, Geesh.


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## tickbitty (Oct 27, 2011)

What sorta house are you looking for?


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## begreen (Oct 27, 2011)

Hanging by a thread here BK, did they accept the offer?


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## firefighterjake (Oct 27, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Hanging by a thread here BK, did they accept the offer?



Yeah . . . don't keep us in suspense BK.


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## GAMMA RAY (Oct 27, 2011)

Yeah BK....WTF?
This can be a good or bad thing since we have not heard from him...  >:-( 
I am hoping he and Rose are "celebrating"....


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## Battenkiller (Oct 27, 2011)

Still don't know guys.

Home was listed at $159,900.  It is out in the sticks in an area that has not had much real estate activity for a while.  We've been scouring that area for a month and a half now.  There are "for sale" signs everywhere, but we can see that nothing is moving.  I'd hate to have to try to sell a home out that way, even though we personally love the area.  There are precious few comps for comparison to indicate what similar homes have sold for, and the realtor felt the initial asking price was kinda high.  The "Zestimates" from the Zillow website is all we have to go on, and that's show's a severe drop in that area since the bubble burst.  Zestimate on this home is $131,500.

Our realtor contacted the listing agent and got a story about the sellers that they are "highly motivated" to sell, that they are trying to get under contract on another home, but are still $8000 apart on the price.  We figured that they came in with an real lowball initial offer if they were at an impasse like that after a series of offers and counters.   Our realtor suggested that we come in at $140,000 to see if that drew a counter.  We decided to put in a slightly higher - 10% below asking price - with the hopes of letting them know they will need to come down but are willing to listen to a reasonable counter.  The purchase offer went in at $143,500.

After two long agonizing days, they got back to us with their counter - $156,900.  Less than 2% off the already high asking price.  Our agent said he was surprised their counter was so high.  The selling agent told him she was surprised they came down that much.

So now we're weighing what our options are.  If we had the time, I'd let them stew for a few months.  Wait for the price to drop (and it will, they are all dropping around here), then put in another offer for the same $143K.  As it is, we may be stuck paying way more than it is worth or be forced to rent a home at a much higher monthly payment, in a place I won't ever be able to settle in with my shop and other stuff.

A huge confounding factor is how this place will appraise for a USDA-backed loan.  Our hope is to just get them to come down by 6%... the estimated closing costs.  Our mortgage broker told us that it is a huge red flag for the underwriters to see closing costs being rolled into the mortgage that exceeds the asking price of the home.  And I don't have $10K to spare to cover those costs, not with attorney's fees, inspections, appraisal, moving costs, and all that we want to do to this place after we get it  

Any real estate gurus have solid advice about which way we should think of going? 

Here's a link to the listing.  Note the "door to nowhere" out from the kitchen in the back.  Silly modular homes, they get on site with them and it's "oops... hadn't thought about that".  Nothing that a few grand worth of deck won't fix, but I'm surprised they could have kids in that place for 7 years without ever addressing that error.  The rest of the place is just what the doctor ordered for us empty nesters.

http://www.albanyhomes411.com/homes/2388-County-Highway-107/17510725/?index=7

BTW there is a nice Harmon P-61 pellet stove in the living room (goes with the home) and 3 tons of pellets in the basement (not sure if they'll include them or sell them).  Full insulation in the floor joists, and the driest, I mean the bone-driest basement I think I've ever seen.  After 20 years of dealing with massive groundwater floods, this is a dream come true.  There will be a wood stove in the recreation room I plan for the basement (hopefully a Woodstock, it truly sucks that I can't get the awesome pricing they are offering right now), and there is a nice Brunswick pool table with an Italian slate bed in usable condition about 10 minutes away being advertised on CL for $300.  I've wanted my own pool table all my life, just never had the room for one.  So, this place is just supposed to happen, eh?  Just don't know the steps to get there.  I even tried invoking the spirit of Jean-Luc Picard by telling our realtor to "Make it so", but apparently, he is not a Trekkie.


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## GAMMA RAY (Oct 27, 2011)

It looks like a nice place for you guys BK.....the land is awesome....and no noisy neighbors to deal with...
I hope you get it...


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## Battenkiller (Oct 27, 2011)

GAMMA RAY said:
			
		

> It looks like a nice place for you guys BK.....the land is awesome....and no noisy neighbors to deal with...
> I hope you get it...




With 8 chainsaws, WE will be the noisy neighbors.  :cheese: 


Hey, do me a favor and ask George what he thinks, OK?  I trust his opinion, he is obviously pretty astute in these matters.


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## Jags (Oct 27, 2011)

That is a neat and clean set of digs, BK. 

A few years ago, I was agonizing over the same kind of decision over a tiny little cabin on the Mighty Mississippi.  The $$ amount was substantially less then your decision, but with me it finally came down to:  Its what I want, Its where I want, and it is a chance at something that doesn't come around very often (very limited numbers of cabins on the river and most sales are private, rarely bid on by public.).  

You might want to take a step back and look at it from a "worth" value to you personally.  I ain't talking about appraisal value, but personal value.  How much is it worth to not rent some other place, just to move again.  How much is owning your own little slice of serenity, how much is it worth to call the place "home" and be at comfort knowing that.

I can't answer those questions, but they should be considered.  Not everything can be quantitatively valued.  Your at a $13,000 impasse.  What does that mean to YOU.

I am not familiar with the housing out there.  Maybe this is one of many (but it doesn't really sound like it) choices.  I am in NO way trying to convince you one way or the other, just throwing out some real world, personal observations.  _Sometimes_ it is not about the bottom dollar.


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## firefighterjake (Oct 27, 2011)

Looks like a decent place BK . . . tell them if they throw in the geese for free you'll meet them halfway.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Oct 27, 2011)

Looks great BK, but I would hold out for a lower price so you can get those costs rolled in to the mortgage.  I was lucky-mine appraised at 40k more than I was offering and the seller didn't get an appraisal.  Of course the financial world imploded ten days later, and now the value is probably only up about 10k.     Zillow estimates can be wildly different than appraisals.    Your realtor should be able to make a rough appraisal so you know you are in the ballpark,   

I know how stressful the process is, but it will be worth it!


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## yooperdave (Oct 27, 2011)

good luck bk...but ya gotta dump the pellet stove!  those pellets are just too hard to stack after you split them!

and definetly get the pool table...


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 28, 2011)

Looks like you will spend more time mowing than processing firewood    Nice looking place and from what I've heard its nice to move into a place that needs nothing.


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## tickbitty (Oct 28, 2011)

The bank of america "trend" website puts it a bit higher than Zillow does... into the range basically that you are offering and including the range they are asking... not that that helps, but anyway they might have better comps recorded or something.  Check it out - maybe it'll make you feel better about how the bank will appraise it or whatnot.  

Hmmm.  I have to put a couple returns in here, the estimate site comes up as "blacklisted!"  Take out the returns in here and see if it works... (Mods, if it really SHOULD BE blacklisted let me know and I'll edit it out!)

http://realestatecenter.bankofamerica
.com/tools/marketvalue.aspx?cm_mmc=CRE-HomeLoans-_-vanity-_-CA01VN002F_homevalue-_-102910

Good luck!  If it's meant to be, it will work out for you.  If not, that means something wonderful still awaits!


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## MasterMech (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeesh, makes me wish I didn't work/live down here.  159K doesn't go very far here still. Certainly not 4 acres, 3BR/2Bth!  Keep your head in the game BK.  It's a rotten process but the harvest is sweet!


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 28, 2011)

Do not believe much of anything you find on Zillow. The AVM they use is based on data that is wrong more often than right, especially as you get into rural areas of Upstate.

Broadalbin, 'eh?? You prepared to have to drive through that ridiculous new traffic circle every day? Most places are REMOVING traffic circles; they took out a perfectly fine intersection to put IN a rotary :shut: 

Look at it this way . . . It's overpriced (Do NOT believe things you hear from Brokers, even when they claim to be working for you). The market right now is -at best- flat. Or going down. No one buys during the winter. Employment is the biggest driver of residential values. Other than the supposed AMD plant, do you see employment getting better or worse?

The reason you are in this situation is that your current housing moved out from under you. Any chance that is mortgage related? If so, talk to the bank about renting the place until Spring.

The last time Broadalbin reappraised was 2007. Which means the assessment represent July 1 2006 market value. State has them at 90%, which equates to 111k, if I understood you correct that it is assessed at 100k.

Have you asked the Assessor for the sales history of this home?

Jimbo


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## Battenkiller (Oct 28, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Broadalbin, 'eh?? You prepared to have to drive through that ridiculous new traffic circle every day? Most places are REMOVING traffic circles; they took out a perfectly fine intersection to put IN a rotary :shut:
> 
> Look at it this way . . . It's overpriced (Do NOT believe things you hear from Brokers, even when they claim to be working for you). The market right now is -at best- flat. Or going down. No one buys during the winter. Employment is the biggest driver of residential values. Other than the supposed AMD plant, do you see employment getting better or worse?
> 
> ...



Jimbo, the house is in the Broadalbin-Perth school district, but it is south of Rt. 29 and east of Rt. 30, on County RT. 107.  No circle to go through.  OTOH that AMD plant sure has added a few.  At least 12, and all in the Malta area.  It is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.  I can't imagine newcomers to the area being able to find their way around through that maze, I keep getting lost myself.  From where we live now, my wife has to go through at least three new roundabouts that are along Rt 67, and as many as five in quick succession if she heads all the way to Rt. 9 to take the back way during track season.  She literally gets dizzy from them some days, without having to pay the price of an amusement park ticket.  Her commute (I work in the home) will be cut by ten miles if we get this place. No circles at all, and almost all of it is on relaxing country roads.


The reason we are being forced out is not bank related at all.  The owners simply want to give our home to a hired hand to keep him working for them (I'm sure at an "agricultural" salary).  After 21 years of timely rent payments, we're being sent to pasture like a couple of their dried out cows.  There seems to be zero chance that they will even let us stay until the first of the year, never mind spring.

Employment in the area is stable, not getting any better, but the new plant will bring money into the area, so as commerce increases, I'd expect more jobs... at least in the Saratoga area.  But it's still a 30 minute commute to just about anywhere from this new place, so there won't exactly be a rush of buyers coming into that area.  If we could play the waiting game it might work out better, but we have to move quickly.


As far as the assessment, you are correct, the full market on the house was $110K in 2006, and the .90 factor brought it to $99K.  I still can't get my mind around a home like this having a full market value that low.  It costs about $40K around here just for excavation, a full foundation (concrete is expensive everywhere), and simple septic.  A well will cost upwards of $10K.  One of these Bill Lake modulars of this size and quality will cost upwards of $100K to build in the plant and place on the foundation.  Then there's the 4+ acre lot.  A building lot that size has to be worth at least $40K (land was assessed at $38K, not sure how long ago).

Add 'em all up and you have $180K minimum to place a new modular there.  A far cry from $110K for a seven year-old home.

And yet, if that is really the current fair market value, why on earth would an agent list it for $159K to start?  I understand the "buying a listing" concept, but shouldn't she be advising her client to meet us halfway since they have little to no chance of selling it at that price?  Supposedly, these folks are the tailor-made "motivated seller" we've been looking for in this supposedly buyer's market.  They have a home in mind, they want their kids in a better school district, winter is coming on, and we may be the only serious buyers in the area.  Plus, they are demanding that the sale of their home is contingent on their being able to close on another home... that they are still at an $8000K impasse themselves.  Why have they only budged about 1.8% off their initially high offering?  There hasn't been a thing in my life I haven't been able to negotiate 10% off on if the price is negotiable in the first place.  Every one of my power tools that I will be putting up for sale would fly out of here for 10% off what I consider will already be an extremely fair price.  Take 'em all and I'll give the buyer a real sweet deal on the package.

It's all a puzzle to me, and I really have lost sight of how this relates to burning pressure-treated wood in my stove, but I will continue to abstain from the practice now that I have been properly chastised.  I feel so much better now that I've been disciplined.  I was beginning to lose my sense of boundaries in these matters, so thanks for slapping me back into consensus behavior regarding this matter.


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## Jags (Oct 28, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> I feel so much better now that I've been disciplined.



I hated to do that to you, but it was for your own good.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 28, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> As far as the assessment, you are correct, the *full market on the house was $110K in 2006, and the .90 factor brought it to $99K. * I still can't get my mind around a home like this having a full market value that low.  It costs about $40K around here just for excavation, a full foundation (concrete is expensive everywhere), and simple septic.  A well will cost upwards of $10K.  One of these Bill Lake modulars of this size and quality will cost upwards of $100K to build in the plant and place on the foundation.  Then there's the 4+ acre lot.  A building lot that size has to be worth at least $40K (land was assessed at $38K, not sure how long ago).
> 
> Add 'em all up and you have $180K minimum to place a new modular there.  A far cry from $110K for a seven year-old home.



You got *that * part all backwards. . .but thats okay.

What the asking price is is meaningless. That's why it's called a buyers market. Unfortunatly, more than just your Hearth mates know you a motivated buyer. I'd suggest shopping around, and not using a buyer's broker. Like attorneys (and Assessors) we all go to lunch/bed with one another after we fight in court. Keep your need for a house to yourself and re-start your search. Highly likely these bluffers in Broadalbin will be holdin' that for a while at that price.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 28, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Battenkiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK... I guess I don't get the assessment formulas.  I thought they took the market value and multiplied it by whatever factor is used.  Isn't it $110K x .90 = $99K?  Oh, well....

I don't understand how the appraisals and estimates work, either.  How do we even find suitable comps without using the realtors?   Who do we go with to see the home, the listing agent?  I'm confused.  Most of the homes around here are listed with a realtor.  The few "for sale by owner" sellers we've dealt with seemed very motivated to sell, but were even less willing to move on the price.  They seem like the type who want every last buck out of their palace, but are sticking firm to their low purchase offers on the homes they want to move to.

Yeah, it's great to get a good deal, but most of these sellers seem like the guy who goes into the car dealership and negotiates the very best cash offer and then says, "So..... how much can you give me for my car?"  Ain't a car salesman yet that's fallen for that one.


In the meantime, how do we find the real market value of thus home?  Too bad there's not a meter that you can just stick the prongs in the side of the house to tell you it's current MC (monetary content).


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 29, 2011)

Im not saying you have to go with a FSBO, but keep yer yap shut about your impending need to move. The listing agent is THE OTHER GUYS friend. If you use a buyers agent, he/she is also a sellers agent for some places. Plus he/she works around these other agents day in/day out.

If you need comps, talk to Peter at the County. If you want me to do it for you, let me know. The Assessor should be able to get comps for you too, depend on his PC savy ;-) 

Remember one thing about the sales *comp*arison approach . . . it tells you about missed opportunities. It fills you in about history. But you want today and future. Neither are as good as things were 6 months ago.

As far as the 'formula' goes . . . the Town determined market value as of July 1 2006. They put that number on at 100% MV for the 2007 assessment roll. Since then they have not reappraised it. Since 7/1/06 the market went up substantially, then back down. so the old assessment $100k represents 90% of current 7/1/2010 (not a typo) value. Thus $100k divided by .90 = $111k. And remember, the valuation date of the current roll is now 16 months old!! So if the market has come down - it has - the market value is even less.

But don't get too hung up on the Assessment and formulas. It's simple. Market value is 'most probable price, with both buyer and seller acting in self interest, neither being compelled to act. . .' Right now, you are under duress, because you need a place to sleep. This makes you willing to pay too much.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 29, 2011)

So.......

We put in our best offer.  $159,900 with a $7000 seller's contribution toward the closing costs.  Our mortgage broker estimated our closing costs to be about $8000-$8500, so we will only be out of pocket about $1500 at closing, plus the inspection, appraisal, and attorney's fees.  

And................................

They accepted our offer. YAY!   

We can now go to our landlord and show him the accepted purchase contract and tell him we will need to hang tight here until we can close.  Of course, this deal is contingent on the owners coming under contract for a home they want (is anything ever easy?), but their agent said they are delighted and are going out tomorrow in the snowstorm to get another look at the place they want to buy.  Hopefully we will both move rapidly toward closing and we can be in the new place around the first of the year.  We weren't the only ones highly motivated here.  They said they wanted to be out before the snow flies.  Already a little late for both of us on that one.


Thanks to all for the great advice... even if it did bugger up the analysis of my comprehensive PT wood burning experiment.  %-P 


Kathleen for reminding me to allow enough room to roll the closing costs into the mortgage.

Jimbo (ISDB) for explaining the tax computations (we've since talked to the assessor, but your knowledge helped us ask the right questions).

Solar for giving his insight as a buyer/seller.

And especially...

Jags for reminding me that there are many ways to value something, and that an appraisal is just a measure of it's monetary value, not its value to our lives.  Hard to get away from the "best price possible"  mentality that always governed my business purchases.  We almost pulled the trigger on a home that was a much better deal, but it was a place I would be about 50% as happy to own as this place.  I needed a wakeup slap on this issue as well, Jags.  ;-) 


And thanks to all who have followed this thing for the last month or so and extended their support.  Many of you invited me to move to your area, and although many of these places are tempting to move to, reality decrees that we move there only in the virtual world.  Nice to see what a great family this place has become to me, and to be able to cry on a few shoulders without being ridiculed for it.  

So now I....

- Have to go plan that deck
- Need to find a nice tractor to mow all that green stuff
- Deserve a big glass of 16 year-old Lagavulin and nice Honduran cigar

The first two projects can wait, I'm off to do the third right now. :coolsmile:


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## begreen (Oct 29, 2011)

Good luck with the closing BK, Hope it all goes smoothly now.


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## fossil (Oct 29, 2011)

That all sounds really good, BK.  I sure hope the contingency doesn't hang things up for you.  I was involved in one of those deals once ("OK, I'll sell you my house, but not until I know I can buy this other house"), and it dragged on for a frustratingly long time.  I wish you better luck.  Rick


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## hossthehermit (Oct 29, 2011)

Congrats, and burn up the rest of that PT while it's snowing, nobody will notice.


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## tickbitty (Oct 29, 2011)

Woohoo!  That's awesome.  What a pretty, neat, clean little home!  Hope it will give you a trouble-free clean slate where you can make many happy new memories!

This has been an interesting thread, I appreciated reading all of Jimbo's well-informed viewpoints too, it's good to hear those assessments of what's really going on behind the scenes in this kind of system.  I'm not buying anytime soon, but your points would be well-taken if I was. (hey can you advise me on refinancing?!)


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## Battenkiller (Oct 30, 2011)

fossil said:
			
		

> That all sounds really good, BK.  I sure hope the contingency doesn't hang things up for you.  I was involved in one of those deals once ("OK, I'll sell you my house, but not until I know I can buy this other house"), and it dragged on for a frustratingly long time.  I wish you better luck.  Rick



Yeah, we have our fingers, toes... even our eyes crossed.  Bottom line is we're out of time anyway, so we'll be putting stuff into storage and staying with friends and family until we close.  If it gets delayed or falls apart entirely, we'll just start over again at that point, but at least our stuff will be secure.  It could be fun hanging out with friends.  We've had so many offers we're starting to takes bids.    


My favorite nephew just closed on a house with an income apartment and he said we could stay there.    My DIL's aunt and uncle are begging us to stay with them, even offered their dry basement for storage "for as long as you need it".  My oldest boy has friends with an extra room we can stay at.  And nobody will accept a penny from us, either.  All they want is for me to do the cooking.  Pays to be a great cook, eh?


It's amazing the response we've gotten from folks when they learned of our plight.  Everyone is so furious with the way we were handled that they just want to try to make it up to us somehow.  And we're gonna let them. ;-) 


In the meantime we're packing our s*** as fast as we can.  Amazing what pack rats we've been.  We'll have a huge "everything must go" sale the last two weeks, then fill a dumpster or two with the unsold remains...  

... and then probably start hitting the yard sales again in the spring.  :shut:


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## snowleopard (Oct 30, 2011)

It does indeed look like  a sweet place.  I'll keep all my crossables crossed for you as well, but if this one doesn't work, here's hoping you'll be able to flex with it and take advantage of all the help being offered.  Moving, purging your stuff, and taking on a mortgage are all major life events and can have your stress-o-meter redlined if you're not careful. 

Keep us informed . . .


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## Milton Findley (Oct 31, 2011)

The copper is what makes it pretty, I have no clue as to what else makes it termite and fungus proof.  http://guidezone.e-guiding.com/bvfmagic.htm is a site that tells you what you can put in the fire to make it pretty.  The Boy Scouts do it.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 3, 2011)

Excellent news BK . . . I will be even more pleased when you move in and take those first few photos of your new place.


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## rover47 (Nov 3, 2011)

We just went thru that with the house we are in here in Albany. Albany taxes on "market value" We where going to grieve our taxes then the neighbors both the house next door for more than we paid for less house. And then another comp. house sold for more so then our grievence went out the door. 
  But anyhow those circles you were talking about I call them the olympic rings. You can actually get dizzy going thru all of them.
  We though about buying out that way but, I'm thinking retirement soon and wanted to be able to walk to everything. I got relatives that live where you have to drive to everything and now can't. Just did not want that route.
  Cograds on the house, I was going to suggest asking them to pick up closing cost, good move. and your right AMD is messing with values.


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