# Rototilling/New Garden



## wenger7446 (Apr 5, 2014)

I would like to build a new garden in a location where there is existing lawn. Should I remove the existing grass/turf before I rototill the garden?

Thanks in advance.


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## bmblank (Apr 5, 2014)

I would imagine you'll have a ton of weed issues if you don't. Removing portions of healthy turf isn't too hard. I've done it with a spade, but with a good lawn there are more tools to make it quicker.


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## Dune (Apr 5, 2014)

The best thing you can do is cover it until it is totally dead. Old sheets of plywood, plastic, fabric, rug, anything you can think of. 
Turf is difficult to rototill and requires multiple passes at slow rates. Once the turf dies it is easy to till, and no, you don't want to remove the turf. 
Turf is also known as green manure. 

http://www.organicgardening.com/learn-and-grow/cover-crop-basics


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## semipro (Apr 5, 2014)

You may want to check out 'lasagna' gardening.
Here's one reference: http://organicgardening.about.com/od/startinganorganicgarden/a/lasagnagarden.htm


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 5, 2014)

I like the "lasagna" method, but you may not have time to do this and get it running before spring, as ideally, a thick layer (sunday paper thick) of paper and cardboard should initially be used. 

A lot of people are totally anti roto-tilling as it tends to compact the soil at the bottom end of it's reach, ultimately (after a couple years) creating a hard packed layer that inhibits roots from getting deep, resulting in what is in essentially a container garden with poor drainage. I think you're fine as long as you don't do it every few weeks, as I've seen some people do. But as is any statement, it's always up for debate.

If you're new to gardening just remember that plants are little mining machines. They pull nutrients up from deep in the soil, and if allowed to die, deposit those nutrients on top where they'll feed new growth, if harvested, you're removing those nutrients front the soil. So ultimately try to compost and return as much as you can to your growing area. Also, the above link to cover crops is good as they'll replenish the soil and in a manner, turn it over for you as a roto-tiller would, pulling nutrients up from the bottom and leaving it on top. A fall crop of raddish left unharvested and allowed to decay will do a great job in loosening the soil, they can be planted with a cover crop as well. 

Good luck and it's just nice to see a spring related gardening thread!


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## 1kzwoman (Apr 5, 2014)

I suggest tightly covering your garden spot after you rototiller  and remove most grass roots , with a heavy sheet of plastic, the sun and resulting heat will  A) sprout weed seed then B) Kill the weed sprouts  C) Pre-warm your soil before you plant. If you do this every spring it really cuts down on weeds.


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## wenger7446 (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I knew I could rely on this forum for solid information. I think I am going rototill this year and try the lasagna method next year at a different location. It would be neat to try.

I have a lot of compost from this past year that I can mix into the garden.


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## Highbeam (Apr 5, 2014)

Spray roundup to kill, then till, then allow new weeds to sprout, then roundup to kill, then till, and then plant. Remove only big rocks.


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Spray roundup to kill, then till, then allow new weeds to sprout, then roundup to kill, then till, and then plant. Remove only big rocks.



Are you a Monsanto representative?


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## semipro (Apr 5, 2014)

We have used Roundup around our place but not in the vegetable garden. 
For many years glyphosphate, the active ingredient in Roundup, has been considered basically innocuous as long as its not introduced to streams.
Recent studies indicate that glyphosphate may not be as safe as we were led to believe.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/14/glyphosate.aspx
We'll probably continue to use at our place it but perhaps more carefully than we have till now.


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## Highbeam (Apr 5, 2014)

semipro said:


> We have used Roundup around our place but not in the vegetable garden.
> For many years glyphosphate, the active ingredient in Roundup, has been considered basically innocuous as long as its not introduced to streams.
> Recent studies indicate that glyphosphate may not be as safe as we were led to believe.
> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/14/glyphosate.aspx
> We'll probably continue to use at our place it but perhaps more carefully than we have till now.



I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.


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## Dune (Apr 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.


That's fine, but I am pretty sure you don't need roundup at all, nor should you use it in a vegtable garden of all places.


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 5, 2014)

I'm surprised it says you can plant veggies 3 days after applying it to a bed. 

I'm no where near a hippie,  ,  I just don't want it around my food.

If you don't have to use poison where your food grows I think most would opt not to.


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## boo boo (Apr 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.


 Yes I remember that type






1978 Microsoft Corp


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## _CY_ (Apr 5, 2014)

* Roundup and Glyphosate Toxicity Have Been Grossly Underestimated *
* 
July 30, 2013
*
The true toxicity of glyphosate—the active ingredient in Monsanto’s broad-spectrum herbicide Roundup—is becoming increasingly clear as study after study is published demonstrating its devastating effects. In June, groundbreaking research was published detailing a newfound mechanism of harm for Roundup.

This was immediately followed by tests showing that people in 18 countries across Europe have glyphosate in their bodies,1 while yet another study revealed that the chemical has estrogenic properties and drives breast cancer proliferation in the parts-per-_trillion_ range.2

This finding might help explain why rats fed Monsanto’s maize developed massive breast tumors in the first-ever lifetime feeding study published last year. Other recently published studies demonstrate glyphosate’s toxicity to cell lines, aquatic life, food animals, and humans.

* Glyphosate Toxicity Underestimated, Study Concludes*
One such study, published in the journal _Ecotoxicology,_3 found that glyphosate is toxic to water fleas (Daphnia magna) at minuscule levels that are well within the levels expected to be found in the environment.

According to regulators, glyphosate is thought to be practically nontoxic to aquatic invertebrates. The water flea is a widely accepted model for environmental toxicity, so this study throws serious doubt on glyphosate’s classification as environmentally safe. According to the study:

_“To test the acute effects of both glyphosate and a commercial formulation of Roundup (hereafter Roundup), we conducted a series of exposure experiments with different clones and age-classes of D. magna.... Roundup showed slightly lower acute toxicity than glyphosate IPA alone... However, in chronic toxicity tests spanning the whole life-cycle, Roundup was more toxic. _

_...Significant reduction of juvenile size was observed even in the lowest test concentrations of 0.05 mg a.i./l, for both glyphosate and Roundup. At 0.45 mg a.i./l, growth, fecundity and choice rate was affected, but only in animals exposed to Roundup. _

_At 1.35 and 4.05 mg a.i./l of both glyphosate and Roundup, significant negative effects were seen on most tested parameters, including mortality. D. magna was adversely affected by a near 100% choice rate of eggs and embryonic stages at 1.35 mg a.i./l of Roundup. _

_The results indicate that aquatic invertebrate ecology can be adversely affected by relevant ambient concentrations of this major herbicide. We conclude that glyphosate and Roundup toxicity to aquatic invertebrates have been underestimated and that current European Commission and US EPA toxicity classification of these chemicals need to be revised.”_

* Herbicide Formulations Far More Toxic Than Glyphosate Alone*
An article published on Greenmedinfo.com4 last year reviewed several interesting studies relating to the profound toxicity of Monsanto’s herbicide Roundup:

_“Back in Feb. of 2012, the journal Archives of Toxicology_5_ published a shocking study showing that Roundup is toxic to human DNA even when diluted to concentrations *450-fold lower than used in agricultural applications*._

_This effect could not have been anticipated from the known toxicological effects of glyphosate alone. The likely explanation is that the *surfactant polyoxyethyleneamine* within Roundup dramatically enhances the absorption of glyphosate into exposed human cells and tissue,”_ Sayer Ji writes.

_“If this is true, it speaks to a fundamental problem associated with toxicological risk assessments of agrichemicals (and novel manmade chemicals in general), namely, these assessments do not take into account the reality of synergistic toxicologies, i.e. the amplification of harm associated with multiple chemical exposures occurring simultaneously.”_


_http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/30/glyphosate-toxicity.aspx_​


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## begreen (Apr 6, 2014)

I have used a couple methods. One has already been mentioned here, we covered one garden area with heavy black plastic for a year. The next year, weeds and grass were tilled easily into the soil. The other method we've used when we want to use that bed soon is to do a double-dig. You mark out the bed, let's say it's going to be 3ft by 30ft. Start at one end and remove the sod from the first 12" and set it aside. Dig down another 18" to create an 12" x 36" trench at the start of the bed. Now remove the next 18" of sod and flip it so that it is roots up and put it at the bottom of the first trench. Dig out the second trench putting the soil into the first trench, burying the sod. Repeat this moving down the bed one foot at a time. At the end of the bed take the sod and soil from the first trench and use it to fill the last by the same method. When the bed is done, amend the soil by tilling in compost, rock phosphate and greensand + a nitrogen source like composted manure, crab meal, guano, etc.


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## Lumber-Jack (Apr 6, 2014)

_CY_ said:


> * Herbicide Formulations Far More Toxic Than Glyphosate Alone*
> ​


Toxicity is relative.
I've quoted the one confirm-able truth in that information you posted, but when considering the toxicity of a substance you need to realize that many substances we willingly use or consume have a certain amount of relative "toxicity".
I was in a job where I found I had to routinely use a lot of weed killer, and have read a lot of information and reports on the use of "Roundup" and Glyphosate, and the one thing I can say for sure is it's toxicity has been grossly exaggerated, and/or misunderstood. The one thing that seems to keep coming up in the studies I've read is that the herbicide "formulation" Roundup is more toxic than pure Glyphosate alone. Well, there is a reason for this.
The herbicide "formulations" they created are generally intended to be sprayed on plant surfaces, and in field practice they found pure Glyphosate tended to drip or roll off many waxy or oily plant leaves and surfaces when sprayed on in it's pure form. So to get it to stick and absorb into the plant surfaces better they tried mixing it with other ingredients. they found that using ingredients with properties similar to soap or detergent tended to make the Glyphosate stick and absorb better through the waxy or oily surfaces of the plants. much the same way that soap helps plain water break through the oily surfaces of our skin. The thing is, soap is not totally harmless. What happens when kids get soap in their eyes? They start screaming and crying right? The reason for this is because soap is TOXIC !
They have tried for years to develop gentler, more mild forms of soap, but the fact is the most effective soaps are generally the ones that will burn your eyes if they come in contact with them.
So what does this have to do with Roundup? Well, it's simple. They often mix Glyphosate with surfactants, and surfactants have properties similar to soap or detergent, including the tendency to sting when they get in your eyes or causing mild irritation on your skin if left on too long, and these are often the first symptoms or signs of "toxicity" that people bring up when talking about the toxicity of Roundup. The good news in this is that the soap like surfactant ingredient in Glyphosate based herbicides is the far more toxic of the the two main ingredients, leaving Glyphosate at the more inert substance, and since the surfactant ingredient is only about as toxic as something most people rub on their skin everyday (soap), then we can feel pretty assured it is somewhat safe, relatively speaking.

And no, I'm not a fan or advocate of the Monsanto corporation. In fact I'm glad they lost the exclusive patent to Glyphosate years ago, so that I can purchase it at a much cheaper price without giving any of my money to that *&%$# company.


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## JoeyD (Apr 6, 2014)

Around here when the zucchini crop is finished, or should I say the plants slow down production because I always see plenty left, the farmers use round up on the entire field. I guess there are limits to what they waste their time picking. With in a week or two they are prepping for a fall crop in the same field.

I saw a work mate get sprayed straight in the face by a turnpike employee and the turnpike guy brushed it off like nothing happened and didn't understand why my buddy was so pissed off. After that I looked into it and found out it really is not that toxic to humans, I suppose.


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 6, 2014)

Yep. Toxins aren't bad for you at all. Trust the government,  they have your best interests in mind, really.
DDT, lead, cigarettes,  none of these and many more weren't bad for you either....
Again, given an evenly balanced choice, I'll choose to skip the side of chemicals.


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## flyingcow (Apr 6, 2014)

DDT, too bad it got such a bad name. Overuse is why. 

A lot of the bad rap on Roundup is base on junk science, and online bloggers that all of a sudden become"peers"  of the study. Same with GMO BS. These groups keep attacking roundup ready corn on two fronts. 

A simple question about opening up a garden...........headed for the can?


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## BrotherBart (Apr 6, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> DDT, too bad it got such a bad name.



In the fifties when the DDT fogger drove down the street us kids used to run behind it in the fog. Probably explains a few things...


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## BrotherBart (Apr 6, 2014)

boo boo said:


> Yes I remember that type
> View attachment 131240
> 
> 
> 1978 Microsoft Corp



The year I laughed off a job offer from them.


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## wenger7446 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks guys. I am going to shy away from the chemicals.


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## JoeyD (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't use chemicals in my garden but I do use round up around my wood stacks. Along with some insect control if I notice to much ant activity. I see no sense in bringing  those buggers in my house during the winter.

FWIW I think you are over thinking this garden. Just go out and rototill now and one more time when you are ready to plant. Or more if you have time before you plant. That turf will die and rot for the most part. The more you work it the better off you will be. It might be a little more work the first year but it is certainly doable.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 7, 2014)

No plastic, no double digging. You can put down cardboard, then layers of compostables for a lasagna garden and plant this year. Use small soil pockets if worried. The compostables break down in place.

Sorry, rototilling is only for those that hate their worms or have a tool they are dying to use.


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## Highbeam (Apr 7, 2014)

So I have a tractor in my avatar. That's because I am more of a farmer than I am a city type rooftop gardener. When real farmers want to get a job done they use the best methods and tools. Best to them means most efficient, safe, legal. One that works on a large scale. No, you don't usually see farmers using guano or hand picking weeds. That's too slow and ineffective.

Appreciate the broad spectrum of advice. From the guy hand "plowing" by flopping the hand dug sod into a hand dug furrow, to the guy that hooks up a 3-8 gang plow and does this by the acre.

As I understand it, water is toxic as well. Drink enough and you die. Water toxicity?

I have been burned by the till and plant process. Seems all that does is expose the weed seerds to perfect growing conditions while spreading the live vegetation even farther. It almost makes it worse. Then you plant your seed and by the time the seed sprouts up, the weeds have a huge head start.

For crying out loud, you city folks aren't buying pre-planted seedlings are you?

Heck, I even tried burning the weeds from the garden one year with a weed burner. No dice. Roundup, I too buy the generic, is made for this and you might not like it but the food you buy has almost always seen roundup at some point.


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## JoeyD (Apr 7, 2014)

I rototill and the worms love my garden, and the moles love the worms, and grubs, and I hate the moles.


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## DevilsBrew (Apr 7, 2014)

I am trying out Straw Bale Gardening this year for a couple plants.  Doesn't take much to get it going from what I have read.

http://modernfarmer.com/2013/07/straw-bale-gardening/


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## semipro (Apr 7, 2014)

DevilsBrew said:


> I am trying out Straw Bale Gardening this year for a couple plants.  Doesn't take much to get it going from what I have read.
> 
> http://modernfarmer.com/2013/07/straw-bale-gardening/


Someone here tried that last year and I was really impressed with the idea and their results.  
I'm tempted to try it just for the fun of it.


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## JoeyD (Apr 7, 2014)

Also you might want to check out wide row gardening. I have a book on it somewhere. It worked really well with beans and lettuce and root vegetables.

One example, I could plant one pack of lettuce seeds and never run out of lettuce by starting to cut when the leafs are big enough and just work my way across until the end, by that time the first cutting would be ready to cut again.

It is sort of like raised beds but not raised. It keeps the weeds down and less water is needed.


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## btuser (Apr 7, 2014)

I would put down some clear plastic sheeting.  The heat will kill the turf and start the weed seeds germinating.  Then I'd make some additions (composted manure, peat, lime, deadly and delicious petrochemicals) till the top 6" and cover it again for the next round of sprouting until it was time to plant.  I used to turn the soil but mixing up the microbes can be detrimental.  

We do raised beds and I use grass clippings as a top mulch.  It mats down better than straw/hay and we don't track the clippings into the house as much as when I used to mulch in place.  I'm guessing it adds to the weed problem but by the time they take over it's mid-August and I've lost interest anyhow.  I also use round up on the weeds or any plant I don't feel has a right to life.


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## btuser (Apr 7, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> DDT, too bad it got such a bad name. Overuse is why.



Most places stopped using it because it stopped working.  It's one of life's little wonders, but insects seem to be able to develop a resistance to poisons at the same time a patent runs out.   It was already on the downswing before it was banned in the USA.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 7, 2014)

If you haven't tried it without the plastic, I think that you may be surprised. Newspaper or cardboard smothers the weeds under the compostables- less work, and- as far as my experiments have shown- better results. I am absolutely not a fan of Roundup, but I do agree that tilling is a great way to mix in/bring up long forgotten weed seeds.


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## bholler (Apr 7, 2014)

Weather or not to till will depend allot on what type of soil you have.  Ours has allot of clay in it and it packs very hard.  We need to till an when we do we lay down a good layer of compost that gets mixed in now we just loosen it by hand no need for tilling any more.  We pulled up the grass and composted it.  It went back in the next year.   And no I would never use roundup in my veggie garden either.  I don't know how toxic it is but I don't like the idea of eating it.


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## Highbeam (Apr 7, 2014)

I guess ignorance is bliss? Don't you ever buy any vegetables or food products that involve plants?


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## bholler (Apr 7, 2014)

I know very well that herbicides are used on store bought veggies but if I am growing them my self I see no need to use them.  I am far from fanatical about it but if I can control it I might as well minimize my exposure to unnecessary chemicals.  I and many of the people here completely understand the need for them in a commercial farming operation.  My grandparents were dairy farmers and I live in a farming community so I understand farming.   But why use chemicals in a small scale home garden when it is easy to do it otherwise.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 7, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I guess ignorance is bliss? Don't you ever buy any vegetables or food products that involve plants?


There's reasons for growing you own-


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## Highbeam (Apr 7, 2014)

bholler said:


> But why use chemicals in a small scale home garden when it is easy to do it otherwise.


 
Because it is easier to do it with the proper amount of chemicals, obviously.

If the goal is a chemical free garden, organic you might say, then that is one thing. People often talk that talk but then complain of it being too much work to garden and just give up. How much guano can a guy shovel? to prevent using a little miracle grow? Some folks have the time and dedication to make it happen, that's great.

Can you believe that they put chlorine in drinking water?


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 7, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Because it is easier to do it with the proper amount of chemicals, obviously.
> 
> If the goal is a chemical free garden, organic you might say, then that is one thing. People often talk that talk but then complain of it being too much work to garden and just give up. How much guano can a guy shovel? to prevent using a little miracle grow? Some folks have the time and dedication to make it happen, that's great.
> 
> Can you believe that they put chlorine in drinking water?


I've done it since I've lived here. I know lots that have been organic for decades. On the 1000 sq ft scale- it's not more work at all! Less weeding, less watering with heavy leaf mulch- more produce than I can handle. I don't get the idea that it would be more work


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## KD0AXS (Apr 7, 2014)

We put in our first garden last year, it's about 20' x 50'. The previous owner left behind a large pile of black dirt, so we rented a Bobcat to move the dirt. Turned out that it was about the same price to rent a tiller attachment for the Bobcat as a walk behind tiller, so we got the Bobcat tiller too. Obviously overkill, but it made really short work of the tilling and did a great job. 







We didn't put anything on the garden but water, and most everything we planted went crazy...especially the tomatoes, cucumbers, and squash. It wasn't planned, but we had so many cucumbers that my wife started canning pickles and selling them at the local farmers market.


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## semipro (Apr 8, 2014)

bholler said:


> Weather or not to till will depend allot on what type of soil you have. Ours has allot of clay in it and it packs very hard.


2nd that.  
Although I advocate no-till practices in general, some soils are just not suitable for growing as is.  I've worked in clay so hard and tight that a large tiller merely bounced around on top of it.  I had to place other materials on top to depth of about 9" and then till to get the clay broken up.  The added material (compost) held the tiller down in contact with the clay.


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## Highbeam (Apr 8, 2014)

semipro said:


> I've worked in clay so hard and tight that a large tiller merely bounced around on top of it.


 
In those cases, I've put on the subsoiler which is a single tooth ripper to break up the soil a bit first. Otherwise you may be better off waiting until the rains soften the clay in the fall.


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## Highbeam (Apr 8, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> I've done it since I've lived here. I know lots that have been organic for decades. On the 1000 sq ft scale- it's not more work at all! Less weeding, less watering with heavy leaf mulch- more produce than I can handle. I don't get the idea that it would be more work


 
You may not think it is more work but if that were true, farmers would all be organic. This type of thing scales well, if it is more work at 1000 SF it is more work at 100 SF, and it is more work at 1000 acres. Just imagine how much less work it would be and how much more production you could get with modern farming methods. Organic isn't about efficient production though is it?

1000 SF is a good sized garden. I suspect that most folks on this thread are in the 200 SF range.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 8, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> You may not think it is more work but if that were true, farmers would all be organic. This type of thing scales well, if it is more work at 1000 SF it is more work at 100 SF, and it is more work at 1000 acres. Just imagine how much less work it would be and how much more production you could get with modern farming methods. Organic isn't about efficient production though is it?
> 
> 1000 SF is a good sized garden. I suspect that most folks on this thread are in the 200 SF range.


That's why I specified 1000 ft- its a decent, but not outrageous, home garden.
The same scale issue come up in crop rotation- it's not an issue for gardens this size when it comes to nutrients, as we tend to be intensive with the compost. (certain disease/pest prone crops may still like rotation- but you can't move them that far if your garden is only 25' x 40')


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## mass_burner (Apr 8, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.


 
some folks do take things too far. but I find no need for any chemical application in my yard/garden to grow my gardens or have a healthy lawn and trees.

to the OP, as long as you mulch in your new garden, the weeds won't be an issue.


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## bholler (Apr 8, 2014)

Highbeam I am sorry but you are talking about commercial farming which is totally different that a home garden.  Doing a home garden organic takes a little more work but it is not a big deal.  I am far from a fanatic about it but I see no need at all to use chemicals in my home garden.  As far as the toxicity of roundup I would bet that it is somewhere between the environmentalists studies and the studies done by the industry.  That is usually how it works each group skews their experiments a bit to get the results they want or only reports the results they want to get out ect.


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## Lumber-Jack (Apr 8, 2014)

Keep in mind the original poster is talking about killing the grass on an area before tilling. This can usually done very effectively with one dose of Roundup, or if you want to avoid the more "toxic" surfactant additives you can use one of the cheaper generic forms of pure Glyphosate, like I do, which don't contain any surfactants. *You spray once, the grass all dies, job done*. You can continue from there with the endless job of managing other weeds naturally if you like, but if you don't get do something to get rid of all the grass before tilling it will be an ongoing battle you'll be hopelessly fighting for years.
I don't use herbicide around the garden either, not so much because I'm worried about being all natural, but because the stuff is so effective I'm afraid a small gust of wind will blow through while I'm spraying and kill something I don't want to die. I'm very careful using it around my lawn for the very same reason.
If Gyphosate was even a 10th as "toxic" as some of these reports make it out to be I should have been dead or very sick long ago. I had a leaky backpack sprayer I use to use and got soaking wet from the waist down many times.
I read one report where they fed a controlled group of rats, what would be the equivalent of 2 liters to us, of glyphosate every day for their entire lives, and continued feeding the offspring they had for several generations, and the only thing they found was the rats fed the gyphosate tended to be smaller then the control group that were not fed glyphosate.  Funny thing is, if you did the same experiment with rats and Coke or Pepsi, you'd probably find the rats would be much bigger (fatter), but have more health related problems.


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## flyingcow (Apr 8, 2014)

Also, follow the directions with these chemicals. Too many people double up. Not good.


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## mass_burner (Apr 9, 2014)

By the time you spray, wait...you could have physically removed the turf completely, no grass/weeds issues. Removing turf is super easy and goes quickly once you get going. also a lot of guys don't follow directions, they figure if 1 dose is good, 5 must be better.


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## semipro (Apr 9, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Sorry, rototilling is only for those that hate their worms or have a tool they are dying to use.


Worms rock!  
If you're willing to stop the killing by tilling, add some organics, and let them have their way they will do amazing things for your garden. 
I think some out there still believe the old adage that cutting a worm in half yields two worms -- not true BTW.


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## Lumber-Jack (Apr 9, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> By the time you spray, wait...you could have physically removed the turf completely, no grass/weeds issues. Removing turf is super easy and goes quickly once you get going. also a lot of guys don't follow directions, they figure if 1 dose is good, 5 must be better.


If the waiting time is a big factor then the other methods suggested of covering the grass with plastic and waiting for the grass to die are definitely out because that can take months,or possibly years, to completely kill all the roots and seeds that might be in the soil.Where as it takes about a week (in warm weather) for Glyphosate to take effect and kill the vegetation it comes in contact with. Also removing the turf doesn't seem like the wisest plan either since you are also removing the topsoil with it, and I'd think you would really want to keep the topsoil in place for the garden.
Not that it really maters whether people use twice, or three times as much Glyphosate as they need to, but it seems the last two posts are suggesting that people should never use the herbicide because they are generally just too stupid to follow directions. That seems like a pretty weak argument. It's like reasoning that people should never buy or use a new chainsaw, because there's a chance they might not be smart enough to follow the directions on how to use it. Thing is, if you follow this logic there have been plenty of confirmed people being seriously hurt or killed using chainsaws, and yet people have drank Gyphosate before with no serious or even noticeable effects.
It is just this sort of unreasonable logic that makes me giggle when I read these anti Glyphosate debates.


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## Lumber-Jack (Apr 9, 2014)

As for tilling and worms. I rototill my garden every spring, but I have no shortage of worms in my garden. I'm sure tilling chops up a few worms, but their numbers seem to be dictated by how much organic compounds you have available in you soil, not by whether you till it once a year or not. When I started gardening on my little plot about 5 years ago I couldn't find a single worm, but we have been composting every year since then and every year we spread that compost and tons of worms through the garden area and now you can't dig a shovel full of soil anywhere in the garden without digging up a bunch of worms. So despite the fact that we till every spring, are worm population has grown from zero to thousands, basically because we compost.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 9, 2014)

Lumber-Jack said:


> As for tilling and worms. I rototill my garden every spring, but I have no shortage of worms in my garden. I'm sure tilling chops up a few worms, but their numbers seem to be dictated by how much organic compounds you have available in you soil, not by whether you till it once a year or not. When I started gardening on my little plot about 5 years ago I couldn't find a single worm, but we have been composting every year since then and every year we spread that compost and tons of worms through the garden area and now you can't dig a shovel full of soil anywhere in the garden without digging up a bunch of worms. So despite the fact that we till every spring, are worm population has grown from zero to thousands, basically because we compost.


I think that people read a little too much into my worm comment. I have no doubt that everyone has lots of worms. Worms are killed by tillers, they repopulate. It was mostly a joke.

However- keep piling compostables on top, and the worms will do the tilling for you. Tilling every year just seems like a lot of un-necessary work.


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## Lumber-Jack (Apr 9, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> I think that people read a little too much into my worm comment. I have no doubt that everyone has lots of worms. Worms are killed by tillers, they repopulate.* It was mostly a joke*.
> .


Well it's hard to tell who's joking and who's not joking sometimes. Like I said, the logic people use to support their views sometimes makes me giggle, but I don't think they are always joking.

I have tried not tilling areas before, but I find that I often end up contending with more weeds since the majority of weed seeds end up on the very surface layer of soil, and tilling forces most of them down deeper where they are too deep to sprout. Also tilling aerates the soil, and certain types of soil benefit from that. The soil in my garden area was rocks and hard pan before I started and nothing but tough weeds would grow there, composting and tilling the soil has slowly improved the soil every year.  Of course there are areas where I have certain crops like garlic that I plant in the fall, or raised beds, where I can't till, so I have to resign myself to pulling weeds there by hand, and just going by how many weeds that seem to sprout up in those areas, I am confident that my tilling efforts are not in vain. It takes me about an hour to till my whole garden plot, I could easily spend 10 times or more that amount of extra time weeding if I didn't till.


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## mass_burner (Apr 9, 2014)

Lumber-Jack said:


> As for tilling and worms. I rototill my garden every spring, but I have no shortage of worms in my garden. I'm sure tilling chops up a few worms, but their numbers seem to be dictated by how much organic compounds you have available in you soil, not by whether you till it once a year or not. When I started gardening on my little plot about 5 years ago I couldn't find a single worm, but we have been composting every year since then and every year we spread that compost and tons of worms through the garden area and now you can't dig a shovel full of soil anywhere in the garden without digging up a bunch of worms. So despite the fact that we till every spring, are worm population has grown from zero to thousands, basically because we compost.


 

it really does depend on why you're clearing the grass. If your clearing to plant a garden, your probably going to work in some organic material prior to planting. I have a faily deep topsoil layer where I live, so removing the turf and adding compost/soil works fine. But having cleared the grass/weeds once does not keep them away forever, airborne seeds will eventually sprout. that's why I mulch in the garden. i hear you on folks not following directions, point taken. But if all those guys I see at Lowes with shopping carts full of weed killers and other lawn chemicals is any indication, I think its concerning even if they are following the directions.

"people have drank Gyphosate before with no serious or even noticeable effects" --- i don't think these folks should buy chainsaws.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 9, 2014)

Lumber-Jack said:


> Well it's hard to tell who's joking and who's not joking sometimes. Like I said, the logic people use to support their views sometimes makes me giggle, but I don't think they are always joking.
> 
> I have tried not tilling areas before, but I find that I often end up contending with more weeds since the majority of weed seeds end up on the very surface layer of soil, and tilling forces most of them down deeper where they are too deep to sprout. Also tilling aerates the soil, and certain types of soil benefit from that. The soil in my garden area was rocks and hard pan before I started and nothing but tough weeds would grow there, composting and tilling the soil has slowly improved the soil every year.  Of course there are areas where I have certain crops like garlic that I plant in the fall, or raised beds, where I can't till, so I have to resign myself to pulling weeds there by hand, and just going by how many weeds that seem to sprout up in those areas, I am confident that my tilling efforts are not in vain. It takes me about an hour to till my whole garden plot, I could easily spend 10 times or more that amount of extra time weeding if I didn't till.


Well, I did put in a smily, so I was trying.

First- the reason to put a mess of mulched leaves etc on top is to keep down weeds. Bare soil seems like a bad idea for anyone with the means to put some shredded leaves on there. It also reduces watering. Tilling brings up old weed seeds, as another glyphos. user here pointed out.

Second- Tilling aerates... until it rains. It is actually worse for many gardens, as it mixes up the existing soil structure (worm and microbe activity create a lot of structure if there's a lot of organic matter already)\

I plant 150 or so head of garlic every year. I NEVER weed the garlic bed in growing season. What the garlic itself doesn't smother, the mulch does. When I replant- I just shove the clove in without digging a hole or turning anything.


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## Lumber-Jack (Apr 9, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Well, I did put in a smily, so I was trying.
> 
> I plant 150 or so head of garlic every year. I NEVER weed the garlic bed in growing season. What the garlic itself doesn't smother, the mulch does. When I replant- I just shove the clove in without digging a hole or turning anything.


Well you either have incredibly hardy garlic, or incredibly feeble weeds, because if I put enough mulch over my garlic to prevent the weeds from coming through I'll also will prevent the garlic from coming through. Generally I have to weed around the garlic at least once in the spring after it is a few inches tall, then I can mulch around it to prevent new young weeds from coming up.
Right now I have plenty of weeds growing in the garden, they seem to get a foothold in the late fall and manage to continue growing, albeit very slowly, throughout the winter. Once I rototill I'll have zero weeds growing. Sure they will start sprouting again, but at least they won't have the huge head start on the veggies like they do now. 
I get a lot of weed seeds from my neighbor's place, his yard turns yellow with dandelions every year.  Unfortunately my herbicide sprayer doesn't spray far enough to manage all the weeds in his yard.


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## Lumber-Jack (Apr 9, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> "people have drank Gyphosate before with no serious or even noticeable effects" --- i don't think these folks should buy chainsaws.


Point taken.


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## Adios Pantalones (Apr 9, 2014)

Lumber-Jack said:


> Well you either have incredibly hardy garlic, or incredibly feeble weeds, because if I put enough mulch over my garlic to prevent the weeds from coming through I'll also will prevent the garlic from coming through. Generally I have to weed around the garlic at least once in the spring after it is a few inches tall, then I can mulch around it to prevent new young weeds from coming up.
> Right now I have plenty of weeds growing in the garden, they seem to get a foothold in the late fall and manage to continue growing, albeit very slowly, throughout the winter. Once I rototill I'll have zero weeds growing. Sure they will start sprouting again, but at least they won't have the huge head start on the veggies like they do now.
> I get a lot of weed seeds from my neighbor's place, his yard turns yellow with dandelions every year.  Unfortunately my herbicide sprayer doesn't spray far enough to manage all the weeds in his yard.



I put a lot of shredded leaves on the day that I plant in the fall (4-6"?). Never plant in a row- plant in a block 4-5" between plants. They push right through that, no problem- been doing it that way over a decade.

I put shredded leaves on the whole garden as I produce them in the yard. Very little watering, no erosion ever, fewer weeds.  The soil gets so rich from that stuff that any weeds that do grow pull out roots and all very easily (and there's none in the garlic patch- as their dense planting magnifies the effect). The only down side to this treatment is that the soil is so loose that I need to be more careful staking up tomatoes and peppers (I use the Florida weave- super easy, less work).

No buying/using "chemicals" in my yard. Yes, I do know a thing or two about chemicals. If you'd like a peak at my resume, I'm sure you'd agree


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## Highbeam (Apr 9, 2014)

semipro said:


> Worms rock!
> If you're willing to stop the killing by tilling, add some organics, and let them have their way they will do amazing things for your garden.
> I think some out there still believe the old adage that cutting a worm in half yields two worms -- not true BTW.


 
I am a reagular tiller and have zillions of worms. I know regular tilling creates that plow pan on the bottom but I have never had an issue of lack of worms.

Oh and I have never applied roundup to an active garden, only to kill the grass and weeds before planting. I am not willing to risk killing the plants with overspray.


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## AK13 (Apr 10, 2014)

When we started our garden it was on an old overgrown plot left by the previous owner. We thought we would just till it all up but found that the tiller that we rented could not blast through the weeds. It would jump up and "run" across the ground. So I had to dig up the weeds/turf. It was a PIA!

We decided to do the same thing to the other half of the abandoned garden the next year. That fall I buried the whole thing in a foot of shredded leaves. MUCH better experience! I ended up digging that bed because I didn't feel like having to rent a rototiller again, but could have tilled it much easier. 

One way or another (by cardboard/mulching, roundup or digging) you need to remove the turf before you till it.


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## semipro (Apr 10, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I am a reagular tiller and have zillions of worms. I know regular tilling creates that plow pan on the bottom but I have never had an issue of lack of worms..


I tilled yearly for 8 years and admittedly enjoyed it. 
Saw some worms but not too many. 
Skipped tilling one year because my tiller broke. 
After 3 years of not tilling I can hardly dig a hole for all the worms in the way. 
I've found yearly tilling a waste of time, resources, storage space, and a poor reason to keep yet another infernal combustion engine running. 
That said, I'd probably still till if establishing a new bed.


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