# New used boiler set up options



## Moose (Dec 18, 2007)

Just bought over 30' of triple wall insulated stainless chimney and the guy had an older (1980) boiler and threw it in for free.  The unit it self was only used for one winter then the city ordinance stoped the burning of solid fuels with in town limits,  the thing looks great for being almost 28yrs old.  The boiler has a massive fire box and a jig saw puzzle of grates and drawers in it.  it has pipes that run through fire box where you can mount a fan to blow air through it and the boiler part of it just has piping that runs the inside of the outer walls of the fire box. If nothing else I know I can gut it and get a real nice forced air heater, but I would love to attach it to my existing boiler and utilize some radiant floor heating as well as the dhw that the existing furnace/boiler heats.  I guess my question is with the wood boiler I have described is this safe and feasable.  I am pretty confident that I have plenty of dumping sites to keep the thing from overheating but I'm not sure how to effectivly turn the pumps on to run to push the heat to the dump sites before the boiler temp reaches that critical point.  I am pretty handy with projects like this once guided in the correct direction and I have been heating with wood for 28+ yrs wood stoves only though.  Thanks for any help in advanced.  I will get the make and model when I go home and some pics.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 18, 2007)

Ogdensburg. Another new member from the North Country. Chilly up your way this morning, I understand. Welcome to the Boiler Room, Moose. 

First off, what kind of boiler is it? If you don't have a name, post a picture. Odds are, somebody around here either has, has used one, or knows somebody who does.

Moving the water around is not a big deal. You have to do some plumbing and put in some aquastats and pumps, but that's all just basic wiring and sweating copper pipe. If you can do that, you'll be fine. Of course, you can get as fancy as you like with computer controls--and we've got people who are into that--but if you get the pumps and aquastats (basically just thermostats for hot water) in the right places, you can make it do everything it needs to do. If I can understand it, I bet you can.


----------



## Moose (Dec 18, 2007)

Yeah a little chilly and I think it must have snowed because my back seems a bit sore.  I'll definatly get some pics when I get home on wednesday.  If I remember correctly it has Thermobilt Provider III stamped on the front of it.


----------



## Moose (Dec 20, 2007)

pictures of the stove


----------



## Moose (Dec 20, 2007)

inside firebox heat exchangers


----------



## Moose (Dec 20, 2007)

some how I got the pictures of the heat exchangers upside down.


----------



## Moose (Dec 20, 2007)

back of unit


----------



## Moose (Dec 20, 2007)

more upside down pics sorry.


----------



## sparke (Dec 20, 2007)

That looks very similar to http://www.thermocontrolheating.com/cut_away_view.htm. Similar name too. I wouldnt be surprised if this is the same company.
I believe the unit you have is a stove/boiler. Meaning approx. 1/2 of the BTU's are from radiant heat and the other energy goes into the water...


----------



## atlarge54 (Dec 21, 2007)

Looks pretty nice for the price. What is the temp control? Is there a bimetal spring on the door to control air intake? I think I'd be a bit nervous operating w/o pump and battery backup in case of power failure.


----------



## Moose (Dec 21, 2007)

It does have a bimetal spring in the door.  not sure if it functions properly or not but its there.  Why would I want to use that instead of just controlling the draft manually.  I do have a mother of a pump that came with it.  I don't think I have ever seen a domestic water pump of this size.  It reminds me of a fuel transfer pump I'll take a pic if you like.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Dec 21, 2007)

Moose said:
			
		

> It does have a bimetal spring in the door.  not sure if it functions properly or not but its there.  Why would I want to use that instead of just controlling the draft manually.



To keep it from over-heating the water.



			
				Moose said:
			
		

> I do have a mother of a pump that came with it.  I don't think I have ever seen a domestic water pump of this size.  It reminds me of a fuel transfer pump I'll take a pic if you like.



Probably an old Taco 110 or something similar.  Separate pump and motor?  Probably with a spring coupler between the two?

Joe


----------



## Moose (Dec 22, 2007)

here's what it is Don't know much about it.  Is it worth using or should I get one of the little ones like I have on the rest of my systemt.  pretty big motor I wonder about electric consumption.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 22, 2007)

Get rid of that dinosaur circulator and get a small compact style, the Taco 007 series is a favorite of a lot of guys, personally, I don't like it. Over the years I've seen several that had their cartridges seize up, real easy to change but only $3 less tahn a new circulator. There is a new kid in town, the Grundfos UPS 15 with a built in check valve, it's 3 speed and only about $60. The multi-speed gives you flexibility. They also consume a lot less power.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 22, 2007)

I like the Grundfos pumps, too. I've burned up a couple of Taco 007s, but had some go for a good long time. Shop for both on Ebay.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 22, 2007)

It's funny that you say that because yes, I have seen Tacos go years without requiring replacement, but others no good. There was a customer of mine that was having problems with his heat but the Taco was running, I took it apart and found a stub for an impeller. Before the Grundfos's I used B&G;Upstarts, they were pretty good, but I had to replace 2 out 4 over 20yrs. The earlier Grundfos pumps weren't that great either, I've seen their speed controls quit prematurely. Speaking of premature, although I so far love the new Grundfos, let's see how long they last..............


----------



## Moose (Dec 22, 2007)

get rid of the dinosaur, check


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Dec 23, 2007)

Take apart a Taco and a Grundfos.  Look at the machining and design quality inside the pump (where it counts).  I think you'll buy Grundfos...

Joe


----------



## mtfallsmikey (Dec 26, 2007)

That is an old B & G 100 circ...newer wet-rotor circs will outpump this thing all day long. Less maintanence too.


----------



## avocation (Dec 26, 2007)

Hi ,  that is a Thermo-control unit... they are out of cobleskil n.y. now.  I have one of those stove/ boilers and it works great.
All parts are available for that stove.  My heat exchangers are schedule 40 stainless, not sure what they were using then.
I have mine feeding an 80 gallon electric water heater ( for a storage buffer) tied in with the gas boiler.  I installed a taco 07 to circulate from the wood boiler to the storage tank and found that it is not needed.  It themo siphons just fine, I do have an 07 from the tank to the gas boiler.

they are good stoves,  just run em hot, they are creosote machines if you don't.
dave


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 26, 2007)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, mtfallsmikey and Woodboat dave! Thanks for your help.


----------



## Moose (Dec 27, 2007)

Thank you for all the help.  Dave, does your unit have a bunch of grates and a large steel  box on the inside of the fire box.  Mine came with a whole load of stuff but I havn't the slightest clue where it all goes.  I'm assuming that it is to keep the fire, coals, ash from directly comming in contact with the heat exchangers on the side.  So you have no problem heating your dhw with that thing huh.  I was hoping to get some radiant floor heat do you think it is up to the job?


----------



## Moose (Dec 27, 2007)

Quick question.  I have an oil furnace in the basement  uses class A chimney  I don't use it other than to heat the dhw.  when I install the wood boiler my plan is to turn the oil burner completely off.  If I do this is there any reason that I cannot use the existing chimney for my wood boiler completely remove the oil burner and soley use the wood boiler.  and if I do turn the burner off completely all the circulating pumps and the heat systyem should work just like normal so I would basiclly be using the oil burner as water movement system since its already there and there will be a furnace for the next person in the house to use.  I'm confident I will not ever have to turn the furnace on for heat.  this is my first winter in this house but I havn't used it yet and its been 3yrs since I've burnt any fuel but wood in my last house for heat.   does any one see any problems with doing this....


----------



## Eric Johnson (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't see why not. As long as you disconnect the oil burner and just use it as a distribution vessel for the hot water from your wood boiler, I think that would be OK. Of course, that begs the question, what are you going to do for a backup, say when you go on vacation in the winter? Are you going to powervent the oil burner, or hook it back to up the chimney? That might present a code issue, though as a practical matter, if you swept the chimney before reconnecting the oil, it would get by me. But I'm not a code enforcement officer or your insurance company.

What kind of wood boiler are you thinking about putting in?


----------



## Moose (Dec 27, 2007)

I guess its not a true boiler.  Its the one I posted pictures in the begining of the post.  I'm not familiar with the power vent option.  Cheaper?  well to answer you question.  I don't usually go on vacation in the winter,  I'm only hope to only have one chimney for this winter and install the other one this summer.  I have the other chinmey already, but I just can't decide how I want to run it.  My major problem is the best place for me to run the wood chimney is directly under the peak of the roof.  some of the guys suggested running and offset so that it was a foot to either side of the peak but the only place I would be able to do that is in the master bedroom and my wife does not want to see any stainless as it is let alone a couple of elbows thrown in there.  see there is no attic in that part of the house, vaulted celings.  What I would like to do is run both stainless pipes straight side by side for appox 30' then tie the two of them in to an old masonry chimney for the last 3-4' but I don't think that I can do that even though I don't think that I would have a problem.  with back draft or to much exaust volume for the masonry chimney.  who knows.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 27, 2007)

Can you run both chimneys parallel to the masonry chimney? If so, you could possibly box all of them and make a wood chase as one large chimney. A wood chased chimney would look pretty good if your house is more of a contemporary design.


----------



## Moose (Dec 28, 2007)

Here is a pic of the master bath where the chimneys run.  the stone chimney is over 200yrs old and as far as I can tell is incooperated in the 2' stone wall which is just on the other side of the sheet rock and linen closet you see here.  As you can see the stainless chimney comes up into the linen closed then is routed into the stone chimney.  So what your saying is forget about the stone chimney and run the two stainless straight through the roof covering them with a box, kinda like the linen closet but all the way through the roof?  I like that Idea I thought about extending the linen closet to the celing but my wife was too keen on the idea.  said she liked the way it looked now.  I bet I could extend it to the celing and put some stone veneer on it.  My main concern would be I'm almost positive I will have to cut a truss.  I'm never lucky enough to land in the center.  And i would also have to cut into the main support on the peak I'm sure I could do it although I have never done it before so I'm a bit nervous.


----------



## Moose (Dec 28, 2007)

Alright still thinking out loud.  I really starting to lean towards installing the second chimney parallel with the the oil furnace's chimney.  As Eric said earlier if I steal the oil furnace's chimney then I have no back up and if something came up to where I need to skip town for a few weeks then I would be sol.  I already have 22 1/2' of 8" stainless with a tee connector and cap laying in my garage might as well put it to good use right?  my major concern still lies in I have to run the pair of chimneys directly through the peak.  Are there any carpenters out there that know what I need to do this?  Or if it is even possible while maintaining structural integrity and water tightness.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 28, 2007)

In suggesting a wood chase, I thought your flues were on the outside which is why I couldn't quite understand about entering the original stone chimney. After looking at your photos, I think bringing that closet all the way to the ceiling would look great. Judging by the location of the flues in the closet you may just clear the rafters, I think you may be between the first and second rafters. If you were to penetrate the roof, you can cut out around the flues, you will have to cut back the shingles, frame the chase, trim in wood, vinyl, or even stone veneer, cap it. When doing this you will have to flash the chase first before you trim and replace the roofing. When I built my house 21 yrs ago I didn't use masonry chimneys, I used triple wall galv. on my fireplace with a wood chase that goes through my roof, and I used 2 flues in Metalbestos SS for my oil and wood boilers, that chase runs on the outside of my house and is only flashed on one side. Tomorrow I can take and post some pics. Currently there are many stone veneers commercially available that would look great, I kinda wish they made them back then.


----------



## Moose (Dec 28, 2007)

Well bartman if they are regular rafters with basic strapping I will have it made.  My worries are the house was built in 1802 and there is hand honed support beams in more than one place in the house.  If there is one of these monsters on the other side of the ceiling I would never be able to get a chimney through I don't think. unless I offset it to one side or the other.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 28, 2007)

If you did habe to offset the flues it wouldn't be a terrible thing. Working with Metalbestos is relatively easy since you can get so many different fittings. What you should really be careful of is the use of elbows and tees, they really affect the draft readings. About a month ago I stumbled upon a website for the heating industry and the author who has written books about efficient combustion. Here's the link, I have found it very informative, I didn't realize these fittings had so much of a detrimental affect on flue pipe installations. http://fueloilnews.com/uploads/features/2006/0604_feature3.asp


----------



## Moose (Dec 28, 2007)

Well lets hope I can go straight up and out, because I have no Idea what make of chimney I have.  I thought it looked like supervent but when I took a piece in they would not fit together.  so I don't know where I would start to find replacement parts for it.  A big concern for me is finding a Pipe adapter and box for the first through floor fitting.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 28, 2007)

Looking closely at your pics, the pipe doesn't look like Supervent, or Metalbestos, see if you can find any tags or stampings on the pipe. Metalbestos makes Supervent, they look alike but don't interchange. Supervent was made for home store distribution and is a bit cheaply made in comparison to the Metalbestos brand.


----------



## Moose (Dec 29, 2007)

The pics of the chimney in the linen closet is what is attached to the oil burner.  I am going to install a seperate pipe which I have in my garage for the wood stove.  I have decided to keep the oil burner as a back up.  I'm not at home right now but I think I have a piece of it in my car if you would like to see it.  I have about 25' of it but none of it has any tags on it. I have 1 tee,1 cap piece, and 9 straight pieces.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 29, 2007)

If you can post a pic, that would be great, Simpson also makes ss class A, there is another brand called AirJet too.


----------



## Moose (Dec 30, 2007)

Got home today and found a stamp on the chimney cap it is 8" Metalbestos SS.  Now I should be able t find parts.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 31, 2007)

If it's Metalbestos that's great, you can check their website to match the photos of their products to see if they are the same. One word of note though, sometimes  Metalbestos caps can be used on other chimney brands because the newer Metalbestos caps are more of a universal fit compared withe the earlier series. When I changed my caps I noticed that the company changed the design, my originals had a lock band where the newer ones had straps.


----------



## Moose (Dec 31, 2007)

Is metalbestos better than other brands or somthing.?  I was looking at a few different sites and could not believe the price.


----------



## Moose (Dec 31, 2007)

Well I wonder if I have another brand or something because only the cap had metalbestos ss stamped right into the stainless.  All the straight pieces used to have a sticker on them but they are long gone.


----------



## Bartman (Dec 31, 2007)

It seems to be about the best made, very durable, I would imagine other companies are probably equal nowadays. Supervent is cheaper, but even though it's made by Metalbestos, looks like Metalbestos, it's not the same size.


----------



## Moose (Jan 4, 2008)

ok,  So I know that the chimney cap is metalbestos, but I'm not convinced that the rest of the pipe is metalbestos.  The pipe seems to be of a little lesser grade as in a magnet will stick to it.  So if the the pipe is not metalbestos and the cap will fit it does that mean the the rest of the metalbestos products will fit the pipe also?  I really need to get the adapter to fit the black pipe into and a celing box for a vaulted celing.  Until I do my install is on hold


----------



## Bartman (Jan 5, 2008)

I think Metalbestos did make a galvanized insulated pipe, I believe I saw some on a job I was doing, it was used for an oil fired boiler. That house is about 35 yrs old though. Can you post a close-up picture of it?


----------



## Moose (Jan 5, 2008)

Yeah, I'll post one on monday.  I found out that ace hardware carries metalbestos so I call them up and they said that they had some 8" in stock so I think what I'm going to do is just take a piece out there and see if it fits together.  I sure hope it does because the only thing that is holding me back is the chimney.  The water heater just used the last bit of fuel oil so my wife is really wanting to get the boiler in so she can take a bath again.  I have another water heater on the other side of the house for a different shower but she really likes her evening baths,  the kids don't like showers much either.


----------



## Moose (Jan 5, 2008)

So I was thinking in a vaulted celing with out an attic there is going to be a hole in the roof that is going to open to the air under the chinmey cone/flashing.  To keep the draft out I should be able to build a wooden box keep the 2" clearance arround the pipe right?  Then on the bottom of the box what do I do just install a celing support box to keep the draft from going out the bottom of the box or what.  Is there a special vaulted celing kit?  I have never done a chimney on a vaulted celing before.


----------



## Bartman (Jan 5, 2008)

Is that what that smell was???????? 8-/


----------



## Bartman (Jan 5, 2008)

Are you going to continue the closet to the ceiling?


----------



## Moose (Jan 5, 2008)

Yeah I'm probably going to continue the closet to the celing and trim the out side with a stone veneer of some sort.


----------



## Bartman (Jan 5, 2008)

If you do that, you should only have to use the through the roof kit with a ceiling collar and make a ceiling in the closet a couple of feet down. That should do it. Lowes carries through the roof kits, the brand that they carry is Supervent, the kit comes with everything but the pipe, Ace probably can order it for you too.


----------



## Moose (Jan 5, 2008)

I think I see what your saying.  Just put in a false celing in the cabinet and insulate that up to the celing kit and on the outer walls.  Makes sense.  Think I might try to find a cement footer form that will encompas the pipe and the celing kit up to the vaulted celing then just blow some insulation to fill the void arround the form Thus keeping me air tight and warm  and my 2" clearance. Thanks.  The super vent celing kits will work with any Pipe?  If that is the case then Would I just need the correct adapter for my black pipe?


----------



## Bartman (Jan 5, 2008)

Where is the black pipe coming from?


----------



## Moose (Jan 5, 2008)

The boiler is going to be in the basement, so the black pipe should only run from the boiler to the basement celing.  I'm planning on putting an adapter between the basement celing and the fist floor then run it through the first floor celing and second floor then up to the false celing then out the vaulted celing  as I said earlier it is almost directly at the peak so I wont have much pipe exposed to the cold.  Do I need anything special between the first and second floors.  I am going to fram in a wall with sheet rock arround it in the first floor for astetics reasons only but not sure if I need any special adapter or if just hanger supports spaced accordinly would be sufficient.  Sorry for all the questions.  I always seem to start a project like this and then realize that I need somthing else,  somthing that I should have known or thought of then have to wast 2hrs running to the store to get more stuff.  Just trying to avoid this inevidable event.  Thanks again.


----------



## Moose (Jan 5, 2008)

Bartman said:
			
		

> Is that what that smell was???????? 8-/




Totally missed this post ealier : )   We have hot water on the other side of the house  So I'm not clearing any rooms with the olfactory yet.  To look at me might make jump a bit though.


----------



## Bartman (Jan 5, 2008)

Sounds like you have everything under control, you don't need anything between floors, only when you transition through a ceiling or roof penetration. Just bear in mind that you have to maintain the 2" clearance. In any case, it's always good to check your local codes, bureaucracy likes making changes. Where I live, we call it "the land of no".


----------



## Moose (Jan 6, 2008)

I really appreciate all the help bartman.  I feel a lot better about the project ahead and I think everyone's help definatly saved me a few headaches.


----------



## Bartman (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey Moose, where is "north country" in NY?


----------



## Eric Johnson (Jan 6, 2008)

North of the Thruway west of Albany, as I understand it. Around here, it generally refers to the Adirondacks.


----------



## Bartman (Jan 6, 2008)

Was telling the wife last night that I want to take a road trip this summer, to take a week and follow the old Erie canal, she was for it, go figure.


----------



## Eric Johnson (Jan 6, 2008)

Runs within a couple miles of my house. Let me know if you want to stop by for a beer or a cup of coffee and I'll show you a gasifier in action.


----------



## Bartman (Jan 6, 2008)

That could be doable, hope you have it running all summer.


----------



## Moose (Jan 6, 2008)

The North Country is as Eric says generally the Adirondacks region absoulty beautifu country  I actually reside between Ogdensburg and Morristown NY.  just enter the 13669 zip on mapquest to get a general Idea.  I work on the St. Lawrence and the scenery is just breath taking.  If your into the outdoors it is a giant playground.


----------



## Bartman (Jan 6, 2008)

Haven't been up there since I was a kid, so I really don't remember anything, but it does seem to be gorgeous up there.


----------

