# Woodgun Owners Only...Looking for first hand feedback, no knocking from others Pleeeeeease.



## GS7 (Sep 28, 2013)

Can Woodgun owners please let me know:

1. How many gallons of oil you're using after installing your unit compared to prior?
2. Is smoke ever an issue when opening the door to refuel the fire?
3. Does your unit provide all your hot water heating?
4. Likes dislikes?
5. How long have you used your Woodgun and which model do you have?
6. Would you buy it again if you could do it over?
7. Anything unique about your set up a newbie should know?

Anything else you can tell someone who isn't familiar with the Woodgun looking for first hand feedback?
Thanks


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## Fred61 (Sep 28, 2013)

How about input from former owners with several years experience operating the Wood Gun?


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## GS7 (Sep 28, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> How about input from former owners with several years experience operating the Wood Gun?


 If you've used one I'm just looking for unbiased feedback as long as the unit was installed correctly, proper draft ect, what was it like?


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## Fred61 (Sep 28, 2013)

GS7 said:


> what was it like?



A nightmare! I believe I have more experience operating the Wood Gun than anyone else on this site. I've been accused of bashing the unit when I only have been trying to warn prospective buyers of the problems I encountered.

It was Ok in the beginning except for the lack of controls that came standard on the unit that I had to work around like the cycle timer that they now offer as an option or the low boiler temperature shutdown.  The problem with charcoal fires in the short horizontal section of the flue pipe was also a problem early on as well a hot glowing embers flying out of the stack and landing on my asphalt shingles. Another early problem was the explosions within the firebox when the boiler short cycled as well as extreme smoking when the door was opened.

Problems that started to occur in subsequent years included erosion of the refractory interior as well as continuous erosion of the door gaskets. I'm not sure but I think at least one door had a permanent bend in it from the years of explosion within. The boiler jacket was carbon steel and at about the sixth year it had developed leaks in the back wall of the firebox. I had it welded/patched three times in the next 2 years and I finally gave up and sent it to the junkyard. I understand that they now only make them in stainless but as someone stated on this forum, that's what you do if you can't figure out how to make a carbon steel one that will last. I'm wondering to this day if I had storage and less cycling, would it not have corroded so much.

This is just a sampling of the problems I had. Things like condensation in the ash pan and frequent need for replacing center bricks are a couple more.

Seems like every time a newbee posts on this site about getting a new gasser, posts pop up encouraging him to purchase a Wood Gun which gives me a sinking feeling of sympathy for the guy and hope that he looks at the wonderful array of good boilers that are available.


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## CTFIRE (Sep 28, 2013)

GS7 said:


> Can Woodgun owners please let me know:
> 
> 1. How many gallons of oil you're using after installing your unit compared to prior?
> 2. Is smoke ever an issue when opening the door to refuel the fire?
> ...


1- 3300 sf house, 1100 gallons/ zero after wg install
2- smoke hood piped to exterior so only the one time I didn't turn it on
3 yes- no storage- and used for dhw until July 1
4- all likes.
5 140  just one year
6 yes - my brother is getting one
7 lots but the other owners on the site and the guys at ahs were very helpful. Lots of threads of me having issues last year and guys helping me out


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## webbie (Sep 28, 2013)

really, guys, stop the personal stuff


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## CTFIRE (Sep 28, 2013)

Keep editing my posts. This place is getting lame


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## webbie (Sep 28, 2013)

CTFIRE said:


> Keep editing my posts. This place is getting lame


I'll do one better.

Let me know when you want to start using the forums again....
Please read the TOS, FAQ, etc.


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## Gasifier (Sep 28, 2013)

There is only one person that I know of that had the kind of issues with the Wood Gun. That should tell us all something. I have never, ever heard of a person's indoor wood gasification boiler rotting out in a matter of a few years, and then having the boiler fixed, and having it leak again in another few years. I am surprised that there has been no discussion of what could possibly have gone wrong with that set up by the other boiler experts in The Boiler Room. Was there boiler protection valve installed in system?

First. No storage for said bad boiler.
Second. No S.S. boiler model available at that time.
Third. Did system have return water protection valve installed and installed correctly?
Fourth. No storage in said bad boiler.
Fourth. No S.S. boiler model available at that time.
Fifth. Did system have return water protection valve installed and instlled correctly?

Is it possible water quality in system was bad, or became bad for any reason? Is it possible bad experience was because of a bad piece of steel in that one particular unit. Again. How many guys have any of us heard of that have had there interior wood gasification boiler leak in a matter of a few years! And then leak again after being fixed in a matter of a few years. Something was obviously wrong.

To the original poster of this thread. Draw your own conclusions. There is no one else in the boiler room on hearth.com,  that I know of anyway, who has had their indoor wood gasification boiler become a leaking screen door and then have it welded (repaired) and then have it become and leaking screen door complete disaster and then have to discard it to the curb. And then blame it all on the boiler and take absolutely no responsibility or even consider the any responsibility may have some from some of the other possible problems in HIS system.

1. How many gallons of oil you're using after installing your unit compared to prior?  I use about 30-40 gallons first year. This year I have used somewhere around 75-100 because I went a longer time using oil it for hot water in the summer. (Not exactly sure of the number there)

2. Is smoke ever an issue when opening the door to refuel the fire? Yes. Smoke was an issue and I bought the smoke hood and vented it outside and that solved the problem. Get the smoke hood if you get the Wood Gun.

3. Does your unit provide all your hot water heating? Yes. I use and indirect hot water heater on it's own zone(loop) and the Wood Gun heats all our hot water for showers, dishes, laundry etc. for our family of five. I do not know if the coil option would heat that much water, plus you would have to have the unit going in order to get hot water. I have a 400 gallon insulated storage tank (heat bank of boiler water) to coast off.

4. Likes dislikes? I did not like the seal of the Ash Pan so I modified mine and sealed it with a rope gasket like on a wood stove. Works great.
                            I do not have the low temp shut down, which you can now get as an option I believe. That would be nice.

5. How long have you used your Woodgun and which model do you have? I have used it for two full seasons and burned through one summer heating my domestic hot water. It provides all the hot water and heat I need for 4200 sq.ft. house, 900sq.ft. garage and DHW. I have the E100 Stainless Steel model.

6. Would you buy it again if you could do it over? Yes, but I would install it outside in it's own building or in garage with separated room and install plenty of storage. With the E100 I would install at least 1200 gallons 

7. Anything unique about your set up a newbie should know? Yes. I get a lot of heat that radiates off my boiler and helps to heat my home and like it. But if I were to have installed it outside I would have needed the next size larger. Do your research. Do a heat loss calculation. Make sure you properly size your boiler.
Anything else you can tell someone who isn't familiar with the Woodgun looking for first hand feedback? Look at several boilers, read and research. Try to do storage when you install. Storage, storage, storage. You need dry wood. If you do not have properly seasoned wood you will regret that with a gasification boiler. It is the best way to burn wood in any wood heating appliance. Seasoned at least one full year outside. Don't let anyone tell you any different. It is the most efficient and cleanest way to burn.


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## CTFIRE (Sep 28, 2013)

We'll said Gas


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## infinitymike (Sep 28, 2013)

Lets all be real here for a minute. How many people have operated more than 1 unit to make a fair analysis of any other unit.
As far as I have seen,  there is only one who has operated two units.
Maybe if a person who operated a garn switched to a vedolux or a person who has an attack dp switched to a frolieg  they could make a fair analysis


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## webbie (Sep 28, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Lets all be real here for a minute. How many people have operated more than 1 unit to make a fair analysis of any other unit.
> As far as I have seen,  there is only one who has operated two units.
> Maybe if a person who operated a garn switched to a vedolux or a person who has an attack dp switched to a frolieg  they could make a fair analysis



This is very true and why I always suggest people read as much as possible and take everything into account.
I think the info is out there. High quality and proper setups cost money - sometimes big money! You can also spend a lot of money and get a poor setup, or less and get a decent one (if a DIY'er).

If I were buying, price would be an issue. Of course, that depends on the exact deal - if I were building a new house and wrapping it all into the mortgage I'd feel differently than adding on a unit later (for cash, etc.).

It almost goes without saying that such an investment should mean you intend to stay in the home for a decade or more!

If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. When I imported and sold Tarm high efficiency units, we also claimed they could be used without storage. We were wrong, but frankly most Americans simply didn't want to hear anything else. As it was, we were selling against OWB's and pretty much lost that battle! They sold 10 to 1 against our gasification - maybe more!

Wood Gun was around back then. We, of course, liked our Tarms better. 

I think the company, though, would be better served by truth in advertising. Claiming storage is not needed and that their unit is better than similar units is overkill. Why not just sell on the merits?


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## CTFIRE (Sep 28, 2013)

I heated a 3200 sf house without storage this year.


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## 711mhw (Sep 28, 2013)

I'm very happy with mine, but it is all I know. That is no other wood boiler experience. My (radiant) heating sys. was professionally designed with the Wood Gun being part of the design from the start. All of my domestic h/w & heat is from wood during the winter! My heating oil is now put into the tractor. As far as recommending anything to anybody, I only tell what I like and my reasons for making this decision. For me I like the "low tech" stuff, the simpler the better. The WG is just about as simple as it can be and all the control stuff is on the shelf at prolly every plumbing supply house in your town, not on another continent in some distant whateverslavia. But that's just me, I don't have a gps or a smart phone either.


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## webbie (Sep 29, 2013)

CTFIRE said:


> I heated a 3200 sf house without storage this year.



Right, and we sold hundreds which did the same. The pinholes in the steel reports starting coming in pretty heavily about 6 years into it. Never heard a word until then.

I know I'm a bit cynical, but I was in the biz back when my competition was advertising the the Buckstove would heat for 14 hours on two logs - AND, that you could put frozen milk jugs full of water in it and air condition in the summer. True!

The point is that you cannot magically erase chemistry. Certain conditions will cause excessive buildup of strong acids which eat through plate steel. 

Some people's boilers didn't leak. No study was ever done of exactly the conditions required for max. damage. But the engineers in Denmark were pretty straight about it. They used the top grade of German-made boilerplate steel and had incredibly high welding and other standards. The same boilers in a non-condensing (non-gasifier) setup have lasted for 40+ years now. Almost NO failures due to leaks. Why?

If it walks like a duck...is my guess. 

The SS probably solves some of that, but maybe at other costs. I honestly don't know.


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## henfruit (Sep 29, 2013)

How many wood gun owners on the forum? How many woodguns are there in operation in the USA. There is a good chance that there are plenty of customers out there that have problems but do not belong here so we would never know.


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

henfruit said:


> How many wood gun owners on the forum? How many woodguns are there in operation in the USA. There is a good chance that there are plenty of customers out there that have problems but do not belong here so we would never know.


 
 A dozen that I know of. I don't know how many in operation in the USA. There is also a good chance that there are plenty of customers out there that *do not* have problems but do not belong here so we would never know.

I suppose your points also apply to any boiler out there. So just replace Wood Gun in these sentences with any other boiler and you will be good to go there as well.


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## Fred61 (Sep 29, 2013)

Post mortem suggested that my boiler rotted out from the fire/creosote side. No oxidation apparent on water side. Several repairs were made because we chased the leaks around the back wall and welded plates over just the leaking areas each time. It's not easy to get a welder and his equipment in the firebox of a 140.


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## jebatty (Sep 29, 2013)

GS7: I have had personal experience operating, monitoring and reporting on the Wood Gun E500, Garn WHS 3200 and Tarm Solo 40. All are good wood boilers, none are perfect within all operating scenarios or expectations, and all require periodic maintenance and are subject to wear and tear of their high temperature burn components and other wearable parts, just like any other machine.

1. How many gallons of oil you're using after installing your unit compared to prior?
My experience is not relevant to your situation. The WG replaced prior use of LP, is installed in a large institutional setting, and provides hot water heat and dhw for a 56,000 sq ft facility.

2. Is smoke ever an issue when opening the door to refuel the fire?
Yes and no. When the WG is operated "properly," smoke is not an issue. "Proper" operation IMO is allowing the wood load to burn down to coals before reloading and not let the WG idle during the burn process. This means that with adequate additional storage the WG can be a stellar performer; without storage idling, puffing to fairly violent explosions within the firebox, and other issues related to idling surfaced in the installation with which I am familiar.

3. Does your unit provide all your hot water heating?
No, but the situation with which I have experience is not like yours.

4. Likes dislikes?
Wood Gun E500 pros: easy to operate; operates at high efficiency; relatively small physical dimensions; may be used without an additional tank to store hot water; integrated ash collection system which allows for continuous burn operation; well suited for systems which require hot water supplies up to 185F; nearly smoke free; simple control system.

Wood Gun E500 cons: physical location of firebox where wood is loaded requires a step-up platform for the user to load wood; requires additional plumbing to provide boiler with hot return water; subject to “puffing” (loud, annoying, sometimes explosive, and release of combustion gases in the room in which the boiler is located) between periods when the boiler control system idles the boiler due to unneeded hot water and then restarts the boiler when hot water is again needed; requires a separate tank for external storage of hot water to maximize usefulness and eliminate “puffing.”

Refractory wear is based on hours of use, and the E500 is a prime heat source for the facility, is in operation under high output circumstances for extended periods of time during the long cold season of northern MN, and refractory does need to be replaced as needed.

5. How long have you used your Woodgun and which model do you have?
E500, If I remember correctly, it was put in operation the winter of 2009-10.

6. Would you buy it again if you could do it over?
I'm not the decision-maker, but I believe the institution would buy it again but if so would include additional storage from the get-go as opposed to adding it later.

7. Anything unique about your set up a newbie should know?
The large unit and institutional setting likely is not like a residential installation. The set-up now includes hot water storage with the WG operating solely to charge storage, and then the system drawing from storage through a primary-secondary loop to supply system hot water.

[Edit: substituted E500 for all references to E250.]


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## muncybob (Sep 29, 2013)

GS7 said:


> Can Woodgun owners please let me know:
> 
> 1. How many gallons of oil you're using after installing your unit compared to prior?
> 2. Is smoke ever an issue when opening the door to refuel the fire?
> ...




I'm entering year #5 with the E100. The only time we use oil now is if we are gone over a weekend so I would guess that my usage is somewhere around 20-30 gal./yr. The unit comes with a "smoke flap" which was OK and did contain most of the smoke trying to escape but limited the amount of wood you could load and was in general a PITA. Eventually I installed the smoke hood and problem solved. All our DHW is from the WG. We see a drop in our electric bill of about $20/mo. in the winter....2 years of that savings pays for the smoke hood. I like the simplicity and not "needing" storage. With that said we do plan on one day installing storage for the convenience factor. Due to space constraints my short list of boilers was limited at time of purchase. Would I buy the WG if space was not an issue???...I'm not sure. For sure there is a learning curve with these things. Took me 2 seasons to really get it down and understand how to operate. So far the issues I have experienced have either been easy to resolve or were operator error/ignorance


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

Jebatty,

I see in your response you mention the E 250 and the E 500. I'm not following that. The institution has the E500. Is that correct?


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## avc8130 (Sep 29, 2013)

Fred,

Just out of curiosity, di


henfruit said:


> How many wood gun owners on the forum? How many woodguns are there in operation in the USA. There is a good chance that there are plenty of customers out there that have problems but do not belong here so we would never know.




Oh look, a Vigas dealer in yet another Wood Gun thread trashing on the competition...

I wonder how many Vigas owners are on the forum.  How many Vigas are there in operation in the USA?  There are a good chance that there are plenty of customers out there that have problems but do not belong here so we would never know.

You know what is funny, generally on car/motorcycle/tractor/anything forums the OPPOSITE is true.  Usually people WITH problems go looking for forums to vent and find solutions.  We always say on the car forums that "epidemic" on the forum MIGHT mean 1% of owners.  Most people don't go on forums to talk about how awesome there product is...unless they are trying to sell it.

ac


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## infinitymike (Sep 29, 2013)

I like what you said AC...

Most people come to a forum looking for help with an issue and therefore that can be construed as the unit is a piece of junk.
Ive been on dieselforum 3 times all for an issue with my silverado, does that mean its a piece of junk?

I know I posted many threads here with issues about the WG. Some are still held against me. You gotta have thick skin in this big boys forum.
If people looked through all of my threads they would probably run away from a WG but in the end they were just user ignorance and lack of experience.

I now have a smooth operation with plenty of heat and hot water, because of the knowledge gained here and also the field experience.


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## webbie (Sep 29, 2013)

Most all are good points!

That's why reading everything everywhere with a keen eye toward sales pitches is the best advice!

As far as comparison to trucks and other things, it's sad to say but the failure rate of "insert name here" gasification boilers in the early days which were used without storage was very high. If trucks or tractors failed at the same rate, there would definitely be a recall and refunds. I'm somewhat of a numbers guy and you have to take other things into account:

1. How many users didn't use their boilers - or not heavily?
2. How many users used them only in the very cold months with a high load? (would not rot as fast, IMHO).
3. How many people used them a few years and moved? Boiler was out of warranty or at least far down the line in terms of what the factories would do. We had a 20 year warranty on Tarms, but after year 5 it was just parts at 50% off. Want a piece of steel at 1/2 price? 

The amazing thing about the internet is that now the consumer, at least the smart consumer, can be more educated and empowered. In fact, that the ideal mission of this site!

On the other hand, people have opinions - some are accurate, some are not.

IMHO, the "storage" question is not an opinion but a statement of fact. In theory you could use any of these machines without storage. They still have 40-70 gallons inside them and 1000-2000 lbs of steel, etc.
We always suggested mixing valves - and even opening the check valve so some gravity heat might flow.

In a situation like that, the house water and some of the pipes and radiation is added to the storage.

So, yeah, I suspect most any brand - used in the wrong way - could fail prematurely. Maybe not as quick, maybe quicker...depends on many factors.


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## avc8130 (Sep 29, 2013)

Let's bring up another point...

The Wood Gun is made in USA and sold in USA ONLY.

EVERY other boiler is from Europe.  Do we have ANY idea how they did in the "early days"?  Probably not.  Those early days were dealt with in Europe by Europeans.

How is a company supposed to design something and test it for 20 years before they sell the first unit?  Tough business model.

I have no idea how the "early" days of WG were...and frankly they don't even matter.  The company long sold and the CURRENT guys at WG are awesome.  

Storage?  Would be nice for convenience.  Maybe one day...but for now, I'll keep the $2k in my pocket.

ac


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## Woodsrover (Sep 29, 2013)

GS7 said:


> Can Woodgun owners please let me know:
> 
> 1. How many gallons of oil you're using after installing your unit compared to prior?
> 
> ...



They are tricky in the beginning.  You'll have some fits and starts figuring out how to run it correctly.  Once you get that figured out the whole system fades into the background.  Fill it with wood twice a day and empty the ash pan once a week and forget about it.  After tending a woodstove for years the lack of attention you need to pay a boiler is strange at first.

I like my Woodgun.  I also considered a Tarm.  Both would have been a good choice for me.  The Woodgun is a little simpler to install as there's no dumpzone required and they seem to be just as happy without storage.  Before you buy anything, don't simply believe what you read here.  Go look at them.  Look at them burning and making heat.  Talk face-to-face with the people that are throwing wood into them, not just the people trying to sell you one.  I went to the Tarm distributor in New Hampshire and spoke to them.  I had lunch with the salesman and walked around their facility.  I saw the units together and apart, saw their parts, saw them burning and saw exactly how they worked.  I also went to the Woodgun factory and walked the floor, saw them being built and shook hands and talked to the guys building them.  I chose the Woodgun because of the simplicity, use of common controls and the availability of replacement parts.  I think I made the right choice for me.  I could have as easily been saying I went with a Tarm and would have been just as happy.

Like a lot of things with good competition, most of the units available these days are pretty darn good.  Saying this one or that one is junk is just silly and immature.  The truth is any unit with a good name out there will serve you well for years and years.

My suggestion is to go out and see them, watch them, and talk to the people using them while you're watching the things work.  I have a Woodgun and I live in CT.  You're more than welcome to come over and kick tires.  Find someone with a Tarm and others that you are interested in and go see them work.  Talk to the guys that live with them, not to the guys that are trying to sell them.

This is a great forum even with the differences in opinions, and one thing we have is users of all brands that are willing to open up their homes and give you some first-hand experience and advice on they boilers that they are using.  Take advantage of that and no matter which boiler you buy, it'll be the right one.


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## jebatty (Sep 29, 2013)

All references in my post should be to the E500. My head and fingers were not burning the same fuel.


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## Fred61 (Sep 29, 2013)

Leaks aside, Woodgun was one of the pioneers in the USA in wood gasifiers but the trap was set when they went with that particular design instead of a simple box over a box. It may have been fine in the early days but more knowledge of wood combustion over time has caused the technology to pass them by because of the design. The "blow on the fire and let er rip" is a thing of the past' Unfortunately the design of the Gun doesn't allow for fine tuning the fire.

It's not the first company that has had technology pass them by. I worked for one for 25 years. We were in the data storage business, ie rotating magnetic memory devices (disks and before that, drums). One of three or four in the country in the late fifties and forward. When the markets saw a need for more units the stogy old company couldn't crank up it's technology fast enough and all was lost to the Seagates etc  of the world.

I don't believe they could get the present complicated design to be fine tuned like the other boilers on the market today. Finesse has taken over the brute force of the Woodgun.


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## avc8130 (Sep 29, 2013)

Fred,

What are you trying to say?  You think the newer boilers "throttle" a bit better?  In other words they can actually burn slower while still gassifying?  

Shear curiosity.  I know my WG has no adjustments.  A coworker has the Vedolux 40 and he has a little GLASS plate with a thumb screw secondary air adjustment.  He says he can't tell any difference when adjusting the plate.  That boiler uses a draft fan also.

ac


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## Fred61 (Sep 29, 2013)

I haven't operated the vedolux but I do know I can adjust the flame from a dirty lazy red to a red/blue to a blue/white by adjusting the primary and secondary air on the EKO and the Biomass and I believe the same can be said for the Tarm and Vigas while using a much lower velocity than the Woodgun

.





avc8130 said:


> Fred,
> 
> What are you trying to say?  You think the newer boilers "throttle" a bit better?  In other words they can actually burn slower while still gassifying?
> 
> ...


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

Woodgun Owners Only...Looking for first hand feedback, no knocking from others Pleeeeeease.

Again. Read title of thread by original poster. (op)

Woodgun Owners Only...Looking for first hand feedback, no knocking from others Pleeeeeease.

Not Woodgun Owners from 5 years ago, 10 years ago,15 years ago, dealers who use to sell them or their competition, not owners of other boilers who do not like Wood Gun. That was his request. Not anyone elses.


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## Fred61 (Sep 29, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> Woodgun Owners Only...Looking for first hand feedback, no knocking from others Pleeeeeease.
> 
> Again. Read title of thread by original poster. (op)
> 
> ...


Sorry Gas. I asked permission from the OP to respond and in post #2 and received permission from him in post #3. Go back and look.


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

Sorry Gas. I asked permission from the OP to respond and in post #2 and received permission from him in post #3. Go back and look. 

Oh no need to apologize Fred. I am not going to lose any sleep over it. Maybe you should do what Webbie suggested in the other thread. Here is his statement and suggestion from the other thread.

So, to be clear:
"We not talkin about whose God is the right one, just wood burning. ", etc....

Maybe there is a reason the OP didn't continue to engage? If so, that's my only point. It's fair to warn users of a bad experience. It's fair to tell them just about anything in positive or negative features. What is not fair is to be on a crusade either way or to confuse new users more than they were already....

My suggestion for those who have bad experiences is this. Place ONE review in our review section. Once it is checked and public, copy down the link. Then, when people ask about the boiler, you can say "my experience is not so good - please see this and other reviews". 

You see you seem to be on a crusade against the Wood Gun in general. And you do not believe, or want to accept, that any of your lack of knowledge at the time of your install may have helped lead to your bad experience. 

You apparently did not have a return protection valve that would have continued sending hot water back into your Wood Gun. Again, because you did not know at that time. Your new system now has one. I would bet. Right? 

You did not have the option of the S.S. Wood Gun at that time. You did not have large amount of storage for that system. Your new system now has a large amount of storage. Right?

The rest of us have been fortunate to find this sight, do our research, and learn from past mistakes. That is to our benefit. I tell others to look at several boilers. Read. Make sure you have storage with your system. Etc.

Stop being on a crusade and failing to acknowledge that some of your problems were probably from lack of knowledge that you now have. There are guys out there who have been running Wood Guns for 20 years plus.


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## ewdudley (Sep 29, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> Stop being on a crusade and failing to acknowledge that some of your problems were probably from lack of knowledge that you now have. There are guys out there who have been running Wood Guns for 20 years plus.


Simply reporting facts in a level headed and competent manner does not constitute a 'crusade'.  It sounds to me like the boiler in question was installed and operated in a manner consistent with the manufacturer's claims and guidance, and it failed miserably.  Fred has simply taken the time repeatedly to report that there is such a thing as a Wood Gun that fails.

Anyone is welcome to conclude that the failure could have been avoided, but it is certainly not Fred's job to figure that possibility out for them, let alone "acknowledge ... [his] problems".


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Simply reporting facts in a level headed and competent manner does not constitute a 'crusade'.  It sounds to me like the boiler in question was installed and operated in a manner consistent with the manufacturer's claims and guidance, and it failed miserably.  Fred has take the time to report that there is such a thing as a Wood Gun that fails.
> 
> Anyone is welcome to conclude that the failure could have been avoided, but it is certainly not Fred's job to figure that out for them.


 
So if it is a level headed and competent manner, than each time he reports about his boiler failing he could also inform them that he did not have any hot water storage or return water protection like he has with his new system now. Where he "batch burns" and coast off his storage. And his boiler has nice hot water coming back into his newer boiler. Just sayin.


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## Frozen Canuck (Sep 29, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> My suggestion for those who have bad experiences is this. Place ONE review in our review section. Once it is checked and public, copy down the link. Then, when people ask about the boiler, you can say "my experience is not so good - please see this and other reviews".



Actually if we all would amend Webs suggestion above to something like what I have edited it would hopefully improve the discussion as it would give (hopefully) a source of user reviews/opinions for folks to read rather than "tell me what to do" posts. If folks can keep it honest with a reasonable amount of detail as to why, then it should be a good source of reference. 

Another bonus (hopefully) is it would be much easier for the mods to review than this endless I love this boiler so it's the best & vice versa. Another benefit to mods/admin (perhaps with pro/factory assistance) would be listing discontinued etc, boilers so potential users know that this review is basically N/A. 

The pros here do an excellent job IMO of keeping the forum clean regardless of their affiliation, some users can be a tad over zealous at times. 

Gotta say though all in all I love this forum, only wish I had found it earlier.

Ok flame suit on.


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## ewdudley (Sep 29, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> ... he could also inform them that he did not have any hot water storage or return water protection ...


Where does AHS specify that storage and return water temperature protection are necessary, or even recommended?


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## infinitymike (Sep 29, 2013)

Heres my take on the whole thing, Jack Nicholson and earth are like the wood gun.


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

Anyone is welcome to conclude that the failure could have been avoided, but it is certainly not Fred's job to figure that possibility out for them, let alone "acknowledge ... [his] problems".

So here you say it is okay to hide, or not report his system failure and just pin it all on the Wood Gun boiler. ? Bull. Why? It is not Fred's job to figure that possibility out for them, let alone acknowledge (his) problems. ?

What? So don't acknowledge any problems he had with his system. Just accept that it was the Wood Gun boiler. That's it.

I have had some issues with my Wood Gun boiler. I have posted them. Most of us do. And then we make an improvement and solve the problem. I thought that is what this site was all about. Helping each other. Learning from past mistakes and helping others to avoid them. You obviously are a smart person. Why would you say that Fred's behavior is the right way to be if it is just as likely that return water protection and storage could have helped prevent this miserable failure as you called it. Pretty sure he included both of those things in his new system EW. Why is that?

Where does AHS specify that storage and return water temperature protection are necessary?

I am pretty certain that the Wood Gun manual tells you to install return water protection. And I think they say 160 deg. is optimal. But I would have to go back and read that.

It does not say storage is necessary. But do you disagree that it would be better for the system, and more efficient, to have storage with the Wood Gun. Look at what Jebatty has reported about the institution's findings with the E500 and how much better things work with the added storage.


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## ewdudley (Sep 29, 2013)

I believe back in the day Wood Guns disabled the load circs when supply temperature dropped below low limit, same as any fossil fuel boiler.  Of course we can't verify this because then as now AHS publishes nothing by way of installation manuals, operator manuals, system schematics, or electrical schematics prior to dealer contact and/or sale.  All we know prior to sale is that efficiency is unrealistically high and flue temperature is dangerously low.

In systems with high-mass emitters this is a recipe for failure because by the time supply temperature drops the boiler is filled with cool water and condensation in the firebox is likely.  So much the worse if the boiler is over-sized, which is certainly the norm for all boilers, let alone Wood Guns with their half horsepower (or whatever) combustion fans.  I'm speculating this is the way Wood Guns operated with factory controls installed according to factory recommendations, again because AHS publishes bupkis on the matter.

Again, there is such a thing as a Wood Gun that fails, and simply reporting this fact does not constitute a 'crusade', especially if the cause of the failure is due to design and control defects on the part of the manufacturer.  But even if you choose to blame the operator, it can't change the fact that the boiler failed, and nothing is to be gained by insisting that the failure shouldn't be reported except according to conditions imposed by you.


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## Fred61 (Sep 29, 2013)

Return water was never below 150-160degrees. No storage. I was told that it just cycled and shut down like an oil boiler. Storage was never thought about at that time.

I don't want to get into a p!ssing contest every time someone requests info about a Wood Gun but I feel obligated to tell them about my experiences. I really hope your Wood Gun gives you years of trouble free service now that you have it but if you were asking about purchasing one now I would tell you my experiences and let you make your decision. I have never told anyone not to purchase one and I have no business interest nor do I profit from your decision.


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

I believe back in the day Wood Guns disabled the load circs when supply temperature dropped below low limit, same as any fossil fuel boiler. Of course we can't verify this because then as now AHS publishes nothing by way of installation manuals, operator manuals, system schematics, or electrical schematics prior to dealer contact and/or sale. All we know prior to sale is that efficiency is unrealistically high and flue temperature is dangerously low.

Jebatty has shown through detailed wood measurement that the efficiency of the Wood Gun is right up there with any of the other boilers. The one boiler running right next to it was the famed Garn. A very nice boiler indeed. But I believe the Wood Gun was just as efficient in Jim's measurements.
In systems with high-mass emitters this is a recipe for failure because by the time supply temperature drops the boiler is filled with cool water and condensation in the firebox is likely. So much the worse if the boiler is over-sized, which is certainly the norm for all boilers, let alone Wood Guns with their half horsepower (or whatever) combustion fans. I'm speculating this is the way Wood Guns operated with factory controls installed according to factory recommendations, again because AHS publishes bupkis on the matter.

I understand you do not believe the design is as good as the other designs EW. Point taken. But. Everyone here in the boiler room would recommend the needed amount of storage for your situation, return water protection and batch burning. To try to obtain optimal performance from any Wood burning boiler you have. In a perfect world if everyone could afford said storage. I believe every boiler has problems with it's design, it is inherent with what we are trying to do. Control fire and use it for heat efficiently. It is completely possible to have serious problems with any boiler and any system. Wood, Gas, Oil, etc. You have to try to prevent them. That is the point. At the time Fred had his Wood Gun he had a certain amount of knowledge. Now he has more knowledge. The boiler he bought now is not doing a whole lot different than what the Wood Gun was doing. But he added storage and burns flat out. Because it is better. 
That is why Garn not only recommends, but says it is required that you test water, and make sure you have a certain water quality and you continue to test on a regular basis and make sure it stays like that. Do we call Garns junk because of it. No. Do we say they are a disaster. No. What the owners of Garns do, hopefully is make sure the water that they put in their Garn is of the quality the manufacturer wants. And then hopefully they try to keep it that way. I recommend storage and return water protection to anyone putting a wood gun in and any boiler for that matter. 
Again, there is such a thing as a Wood Gun that fails, and simply reporting this fact does not constitute a 'crusade', especially if the cause of the failure is due to design and control defects on the part of the manufacturer. But even if you choose to blame the operator, it can't change the fact that the boiler failed, and nothing is to be gained by insisting that the failure shouldn't be reported except according to conditions imposed by you.

Yes the boiler failed. Those  conditions were not imposed by me. I believe those conditions are imposed by the physics of this Gassification and wood burning process we are all trying to harness. And those conditions that many here like to speak of are the laws of physics. These conditions of physics lead most people in the boiler room to recommend storage and return water protection for any system in order to get the most efficiency and best results of your system no matter what boiler you run. So for me to say that Fred learned from his lack of storage is fact. And that he should report that his system did not have storage is reasonable. Why the heck do you think he installed storage this time? Why install storage now. He is retired and could stay home and tend to his boiler 90% of the time. What do you need storage for then! Because it is better. That is why he installed storage the second time around. That is why most people here have installed storage if they could afford it. You and I can go out and buy an Attack, an HS Tarm, etc. without storage. The dealer will sell you their boilers without storage and tell you it will work without it. But most will recommend storage with there boiler. So we don't say because that boiler will not perform as well without storage and will probably rot out faster without it and return protection, that the design is flawed. We install return protection and hopefully if we can afford it, storage. The people at AHS have proven that you can run your system without storage using their design. They obviously do not have all their boilers failing or they would be out of business. But to the contrary they are succeeding and expanding their business. And they have recognized the fact that the boilers will last longer with the S.S. system they have. From what I have heard they are only selling S.S. models now.

Tell me of the design flaws you have learned of the Attack boiler you run. Or whatever boiler or burning unit you run now or have run in the past. A brief explanation would be fine. Every one of them has flaws.


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## maple1 (Sep 29, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> A coworker has the Vedolux 40 and he has a little GLASS plate with a thumb screw secondary air adjustment.  He says he can't tell any difference when adjusting the plate.  That boiler uses a draft fan also.
> 
> ac


 
The 40 doesn't have a draft fan, it is a natural draft unit.

Watching mine, the differences in the secondary air adjustment are indeed very subtle. I had to first hold it completely closed with my fingers for a while, then open all the way, and watch the difference to notice. I have mine open very little, it stays that way. I think most of the air for secondary combustion actually comes thru the nozzle from the primary area. Whatever the case, they seem to have it tuned very well from the get-go so no fiddling is needed, and severe fiddling won't mess the burn up.

Sorry, back to the WG...


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

The sales tactics used by AHS to claim the efficiency they claim are terrible. I mean look at the site of the Attack wood boiler. They are *Heat Technology Producers*! Wow!. http://www.attack.sk/?run=produkt&id=17&lang=en I can see why!  Check that out! Wait, let it go through all of them!


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## avc8130 (Sep 29, 2013)

Wood Gun states return water temp required in the manual.

When I was shopping I emailed AHS and asked for a copy of the owners manual.  I had one within an hour.  

Gas,

Let's not forget the definition of insanity: banging your head against the wall repeatedly expecting a different result.

These guys don't like our boilers. Plain and simple.

ac


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## Gasifier (Sep 29, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Wood Gun states return water temp required in the manual.
> 
> When I was shopping I emailed AHS and asked for a copy of the owners manual.  I had one within an hour.
> 
> ...



But did you see those girls? The efficiency of the boilers was probably right about what I am getting with mine. Probably where most are realistically. 85-87 % But did you see those girls? LOFL. 

Ya gotta remember to laugh guys. Laugh.


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## GS7 (Sep 29, 2013)

ALL of the constructive feedback is greatly appreciated, I can see I have lots to consider.


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## Frozen Canuck (Sep 29, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> These guys don't like our boilers. Plain and simple.



I personally don't care one way or another re: brand. Quite likely that you can throw a 5% eff blanket over many of them. So with that in mind preference would likely come down to factors other than eff%, which of course has a lot of variation for a wide variety of reasons. 

What I do not care for is the peeing match (not directed at anyone). Fred did ask the OP about posting prior to doing so. Fair enough. He then posts & it begins & continues until Admin/Mods/? are forced to edit/delete posts. Wouldn't it have been easier to post something like my experiences have differed from Fred's & are as follows? Perhaps skip the peeing match altogether?


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## avc8130 (Sep 29, 2013)

Frozen Canuck said:


> I personally don't care one way or another re: brand. Quite likely that you can throw a 5% eff blanket over many of them. So with that in mind preference would likely come down to factors other than eff%, which of course has a lot of variation for a wide variety of reasons.
> 
> What I do not care for is the peeing match (not directed at anyone). Fred did ask the OP about posting prior to doing so. Fair enough. He then posts & it begins & continues until Admin/Mods/? are forced to edit/delete posts. Wouldn't it have been easier to post something like my experiences have differed from Fred's & are as follows? Perhaps skip the peeing match altogether?



It's such a constant barrage that after a while you just can't take it any more.

ac


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## maple1 (Sep 30, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> But did you see those girls? The efficiency of the boilers was probably right about what I am getting with mine. Probably where most are realistically. 85-87 % But did you see those girls? LOFL.
> 
> Ya gotta remember to laugh guys. Laugh.


 
Girls?

Where?


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## Coal Reaper (Sep 30, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> But did you see those girls? The efficiency of the boilers was probably right about what I am getting with mine. Probably where most are realistically. 85-87 % But did you see those girls? LOFL.
> 
> Ya gotta remember to laugh guys. Laugh.


 what?  your wives dont feel that way about your boiler?


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## Gasifier (Sep 30, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Girls?
> 
> Where?


 

In the link for the Attack website. They are *Heat Technology Producers*! Wow!. http://www.attack.sk/?run=produkt&id=17&lang=en I can see why!  Check that out! Wait, let it go through all of them!
WOW.


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## Gasifier (Sep 30, 2013)

Good one Maple. Voom. Right over my head! LOFL


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## __dan (Sep 30, 2013)

GS7 said:


> Can Woodgun owners please let me know:
> 
> 1. How many gallons of oil you're using after installing your unit compared to prior?
> 2. Is smoke ever an issue when opening the door to refuel the fire?
> ...



52 replies and I don't feel the information is sufficient to make a well informed choice.

The biggest question is can the Woodgun work well without storage. AHS touts their on/off technology as a feature, but the website does not say if storage is required or the WG is factory rated to work without storage.

For you guys who are already burning, you know what I'm talking about. For the Woodgunners running without storage, do you feel confident you can open the unit at any time and throw dry splits on a coal bed without any repercussions. I don't doubt that it can shut down. The problem would seem to be the restart. As combustion air is reintroduced suddenly onto freshly gasified fuel, reignition is reported to happen explosively. The users experiencing this learn by necessity to time the fuel adds, to wait until the fuel is well burned down and load is there. If the unwary, casual operator can risk wood gas explosion just by following the factory literature, adding wood on a coal bed and running in auto, it would be a substantial design flaw. 

For the Woodgunners running with storage, I have no doubt that all of the gasifiers can fall within 5% of each other on efficiency. The thing to keep in mind is the OP would be dropping in excess of $10,000. on a delivered installed boiler. It is not an action that can easily be undone if the choice proves unsuitable, and scary, for the application intended. Comparing the cost of the install averaged over the expected product service lifetime, there is very little monetary difference between the least and most expensive products offered.

I would absolutely like the Americans to compete with the best products in this market. When I was looking, I was told by my brother he knew a contractor friend with a Woodgun who loved it. It was recommended. I knew for my application I wanted a boiler that could turn down while staying on. The on/off operation was not a feature, it was something that would not work for me.

Don't think for a second I would bash Woodguns. It is in my nature to give a fair score for the work perfomed. Does the Woodgun survive this scrutiny. Would you send your kids or an unfamiliar operator in to add splts onto a hot coal bed at any time or would an explosion hazard be present.


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## Fred61 (Sep 30, 2013)

Perhaps you guys involved in system design or those who install and service heating units could answer one question for me.

Can the efficiency calculation on the Woodgun be skewed by the high volume of air flowing through the unit and out the stack giving you a false (low) reading of the stack temperature? My unit would actually blow glowing embers out of the stack on to my roof whereas my Eko fan is adjusted down to the speed of a gerbal wheel giving it enough air to completely consume the oxygen but pretty likely have none left to flow up the stack.

In other words, Does the high volume cool the exhaust?


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## arbutus (Sep 30, 2013)

For wood boilers the ideal exhaust temperature is the condensing temperature plus one degree, correct?

Wouldn't too high of an input air volume equate to too high of a velocity through the heat exchanger (fire tubes in the water jacket) giving a higher exhaust temperature than desired?


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## __dan (Sep 30, 2013)

arbutus said:


> For wood boilers the ideal exhaust temperature is the condensing temperature plus one degree, correct?
> 
> Wouldn't too high of an input air volume equate to too high of a velocity through the heat exchanger (fire tubes in the water jacket) giving a higher exhaust temperature than desired?



mmm, no clue. I'm not a thermodynamics person, I could have this backwards.

You would have to assume a fixed combustion rate as flow varied, but that will not happen. Generally, higher combustion flow through rate and more turbulence will give you greater combustion output, skewing the number you are looking for.

If you could assume fixed combustion rate as flow through varied, the heat exchanger is removing heat as the exhaust gas passes through, a flow slower rate will yield a lower exhaust temp as same quantity of heat is removed from a smaller air volume (quantity). Faster flow through rate at the same combustion output rate, the heat exchanger removes the same quantity of heat from a larger volume (quantity) of air, yielding a higher exhaust temp.

I could have that backwards, I really should take a thermo class.

Actually, looking at Fred's post again, changing the quantity of input air as combustion rate is assumed to be fixed adds another independent variable.

Efficiency calculations are calorimetry. If you look at calorimetry methods, the requirements for accurate results can be very complex.


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## maple1 (Sep 30, 2013)

arbutus said:


> For wood boilers the ideal exhaust temperature is the condensing temperature plus one degree, correct?
> 
> Wouldn't too high of an input air volume equate to too high of a velocity through the heat exchanger (fire tubes in the water jacket) giving a higher exhaust temperature than desired?


 
If I add more turbs to my boiler, I get reduced air flow through & lower stack temps.

If I take some out, I get more air flow through & higher stack temps.

Does that help?


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## avc8130 (Sep 30, 2013)

__dan said:


> 52 replies and I don't feel the information is sufficient to make a well informed choice.
> 
> The biggest question is can the Woodgun work well without storage. AHS touts their on/off technology as a feature, but the website does not say if storage is required or the WG is factory rated to work without storage.
> 
> ...



I don't have a ton of experience operating my Wood Gun.  I have 1 heating season.  Nov 17 through April 1 in North NJ.  I have NO storage. 

With that said, there was a learning curve, but it wasn't much longer than figuring out how my Jotul Oslo works with its air damper.

I add wood on MY schedule.  I put wood in my boiler in the morning before work, again after work, and once more when I go to bed.  This is convenient for me.  

If convenient for me, I wait for my boiler to be "running" on its own before adding the wood rather than using the purge timer.

If I won't be home in the evening, I just add more wood in the morning.  

It's really not that tough.

ac


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## Gasifier (Sep 30, 2013)

It hasn't blown you across your basement yet? Or blown itself up through your roof?  What is taking you so long?


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## jebatty (Sep 30, 2013)

> The problem would seem to be the restart. As combustion air is reintroduced suddenly onto freshly gasified fuel, reignition is reported to happen explosively. The users experiencing this learn by necessity to time the fuel adds, to wait until the fuel is well burned down and load is there. If the unwary, casual operator can risk wood gas explosion just by following the factory literature, adding wood on a coal bed and running in auto, it would be a substantial design flaw.



For the E500 the problem is on the restart following a shutdown. While the wood load is burning, there is no problem with opening the firebox door and adding more wood. But, if the WG has shut down, then for the E500 the purge procedure must be followed and a puff to a near explosion is a possibility inside the firebox.

I installed a K-type sensor in the exhaust flue close to the WG that feeds a digital panel meter. By experience when that temp falls to the high 300F's, and if more heat is needed, then simply open the firebox door while the fan is running and the fire is burning and add wood, shut the door and walk away. Where the E500 is used, it is common to keep it burning at a relatively high to full burn for many hours by adding wood during the burn as indicated. Because the WG has storage, however, it no longer shuts down, as the storage takes the extra btu's so that the WG does not shut down for a later auto restart.


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## avc8130 (Sep 30, 2013)

I have found the "explosion" only happens if you "catch" the boiler shortly after it closes the air damper and shuts the fan.  

Generally speaking I add wood to the boiler when it is running on its own.  This is pretty simple for me to time.  In the morning, the very act of showering will use DHW and cause the boiler to run so I throw my day load in then.  In the evening, I am usually not pressed for time so I will open the basement door periodically and throw wood in when I hear it running (I can't hear it running with the door closed, I could hear my oil burner in the past).  For bed time the boiler is usually running since it is night and it is cold.

It's really not tough.  With a bit of experience it is easy.  Certainly not worse than the woodstove I used to feed.  At least with the WG I load and leave.  The stove required I hang around for half an hour to play with the air damper.

ac


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## __dan (Sep 30, 2013)

The thing to keep in mind is, there is a big difference between the enthusiast market who buy, build, and maintain their own equipment, and JQP, who needs an automated coffemaker to make his coffee for him.

There is a market in the millions of units, oil burners with no gas available and HW baseboard loads. The bulk of the market will not have the footprint or budget for big storage. That is representative of who will come to the board for their inquiry.

If you were going to buy, build, or install in this market in the millions of units, would it be a WG design, because of the no storage and accept the on/off cycling and puffing as a compromise. Not for you, for your customer, would you sell and install it, in a market that is in the millions. The first time you burned the customer's eyebrows off, you would be out of business and on the street. The customer and his lawyer would be living in your house, eating out of your fridge.

It is a market waiting for the right product imo. The pellet boilers are getting there but need imo, turndown, condensing rated, and direct vent, no chimney.

If the right product is not there for the average JQP, waiting and demanding the right product is a viable option for the majority of the market. It's getting cold and wrapping in blankets is not JQP's idea of a solution. So they will come to the board and ask what does work.


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## flyingcow (Sep 30, 2013)

Gasifier said: ↑
Stop being on a crusade and failing to acknowledge that some of your problems were probably from lack of knowledge that you now have. There are guys out there who have been running Wood Guns for 20 years plus.
Simply reporting facts in a level headed and competent manner does not constitute a 'crusade'. It sounds to me like the boiler in question was installed and operated in a manner consistent with the manufacturer's claims and guidance, and it failed miserably. Fred has simply taken the time repeatedly to report that there is such a thing as a Wood Gun that fails.

Anyone is welcome to conclude that the failure could have been avoided, but it is certainly not Fred's job to figure that possibility out for them, let alone "acknowledge ... [his] problems".

_*Got to agree.......don't cut my head off because I run a Tarm...

Maple1, where are the girls?  i missed that one....*_


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## maple1 (Sep 30, 2013)

The JQP who 'need automated coffeemakers' will have little time, patience, space & fortitude for dealing with firewood in the first place.

Storage doesn't need to be expensive, or take up big footprint.

I think there is also big potential in add on pellet heads myself. Remove your oil burner, bolt on a pellet head, feed it with a small bin/hopper, & away you go. Then you can pick up a few bags of fuel & toss them in the trunk when you're out buying your coffee beans.

I guess that has not much to do with the thread topic...


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## Gasifier (Sep 30, 2013)

__dan said:


> The thing to keep in mind is, there is a big difference between the enthusiast market who buy, build, and maintain their own equipment, and JQP, who needs an automated coffemaker to make his coffee for him.
> 
> There is a market in the millions of units, oil burners with no gas available and HW baseboard loads. The bulk of the market will not have the footprint or budget for big storage. That is representative of who will come to the board for their inquiry.
> 
> ...


 

Good point dan. And I see and understand what you are saying. But, pertaining to what you say about the millions of units. Home heating is a big market.
Similar to the automobile or fast food market. GM, Ford, Chrysler, McDonald's, Burger King, etc. etc. etc. have all been sued by JQP. Some for burning their customers with coffee that is "too" hot. Some for selling automobiles that were not safe enough. Those people that sued are not living in the family home of the family who own McDonalds. Or of GM, Ford, etc. And these businesses are not out on the street.

The Wood Gun is a wood burner, not an oil or gas unit. You can not compare them and expect the same safety rules to apply. To a certain extent, the manufacturer has some responsibility of course. And I believe AHS, just like the rest of the manufacturers of these Gassification boilers understand that. In today's world, not having a business plan that includes the proper safety features in your product will not bring you success.

That being said, I would not allow my young child to operate my Wood Gun, just like I would not allow them to run my tractor/loader/backhoe. Not until I had spent sufficient amount of time teaching them how to run it and they were then old enough to respect and understand the dangers of said product. There won't be a child buying a Wood Gun or a Tractor/Loader/Backhoe. As an adult buying a Wood Gun, you have a certain amount of responsibility to read, talk to people, and become familiar with the product before you run it. Reading the operator's manual is always a good plan.

I wish more of the people in the world were prepared to accept their own responsibility as an adult instead of a lawsuit and blaming everyone else for their mistake and lack of responsibility.

The Wood Gun is not a complicated machine. It takes some getting use to, similar to oh let's say your riding lawn mower. Probably not the best comparison, but comparing it to a coffee maker really isn't a fair comparison either.  It is a little more complicated than the lawn mower. But, they sell wood stoves and everyone of them can be dangerous or safe. They sell snowmobiles and everyone of them can be dangerous or safe. They sell boats and ......... you get my drift. 

So that difference you were talking about in your first statement, "there is a big difference between the enthusiast market who buy, build, and maintain their own equipment, and JQP, who needs an automated coffemaker to make his coffee for him." is really kind of, well, really big!

Most people in our society today do not buy Wood Stoves. Most do not buy Wood Boilers. Most of the ones that do venture into the wood burning for heat have had this passed down through generations of their family. Some do take it up for the first time in their family. Yes. But all have a responsibility of their own to learn how to do it safely.


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## maple1 (Sep 30, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> _*Maple1, where are the girls?  i missed that one....*_


 
Those Attack guys got it goin' on, I tell ya....


----------



## infinitymike (Sep 30, 2013)

Ok I need to jump back in here.

The "explosions" that DAN keeps talking about will NOT burn any ones eyebrows. You NEVER open the front loading door when the unit is OFF.

Call it an explosion or a puff back or whatever you want but it only happens IN the firebox when the front Load door is CLOSED, the unit is OFF (or in idle mode as everyone here likes to say) and the unit needs to turn back ON within a few minutes of shutting down (short cycle).  So the Rear air intake opens (which is inside a closed steel box and ducted to 4" off the floor) and air is introduced into the fire box chamber that has a lot of gasification gases floating around. So yes there will be an "explosion"  much like a back draft on a house that is on fire and a window or door is broken allowing air into the room.  
HOWEVER, this short cycling can be avoided by having the differential setting on the high limit setting set to 30* or bigger. I have my hi limit at 200* with a 30* differential and have SOLVED the problem ( was it really a problem or just user ignorance) . So it has enough time from when it shuts off at the high limit and slowly drop to the differential setting to have the gases dissipate. WHALA no more explosions.


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## Gasifier (Sep 30, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> Gasifier said: ↑
> Stop being on a crusade and failing to acknowledge that some of your problems were probably from lack of knowledge that you now have. There are guys out there who have been running Wood Guns for 20 years plus.
> Simply reporting facts in a level headed and competent manner does not constitute a 'crusade'. It sounds to me like the boiler in question was installed and operated in a manner consistent with the manufacturer's claims and guidance, and it failed miserably. Fred has simply taken the time repeatedly to report that there is such a thing as a Wood Gun that fails.
> 
> ...


 
I agree flying cow. Not cutting anyone's head off because they run a different boiler. I suggest to all who are considering buying to look at several boilers. And to do storage and return protection. I strongly considered an HS Tarm and a Garn. Just think a mental note should be made by all that their is only one guy here who has had an indoor gasification boiler fail after only a few years in operation. Yes, it happened to be a Wood Gun. I believe it was an Eshland Wood Gun. I think. Not an AHS Wood Gun, an Eshland Wood Gun. And it could have been many things that made that boiler fail. Might have been some of the system set-up, might have been bad water quality, might have been that it was over sized and idled so much,  might have been a bad piece of steel in that particular boiler, etc. etc. etc. ................


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## avc8130 (Sep 30, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Ok I need to jump back in here.
> 
> The "explosions" that DAN keeps talking about will NOT burn any ones eyebrows. You NEVER open the front loading door when the unit is OFF.
> 
> ...



Exactly!

The only way to "burn eyebrows off" would be to operate the machine incorrectly, blatantly ignoring the owners manual AND the warning written RIGHT ON THE FRONT OF THE MACHINE!

It's a wood burning implement.  It requires hands on attention.  By following the directions it is just as "dangerous" to operate as a wood stove: burns.  

By being stupid, I burned my arms loading the WG a few times grazing the door frame while putting wood in.  The same has happened with my Jotul wood stove.  I was too lazy to put on elbow length stove gloves.  No more laziness, no more burns.

JQP is NOT the market a wood burner is built for.  JQP needs to stick with their liquid fuel boilers...this is why most insurance REQUIRES them.  They know JQP is too dumb to keep his own house warm safely.

ac


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## slowzuki (Oct 3, 2013)

arbutus said:


> Wouldn't too high of an input air volume equate to too high of a velocity through the heat exchanger (fire tubes in the water jacket) giving a higher exhaust temperature than desired?



I'll reply because my Jetstream is of the same general design in that it has no secondary air and always has excess air to ensure the burn stays clean.  The excess air is only a few % at peak burn enough that it lowers stack temps through dilution.  

The Jetstream's are not able to idle though and there are warnings in the manual about explosion risk puffing etc if attempting to reload mid cycle.

The efficiency loss in the combustion chamber carrying the excess air was calculated by Dr. Richard Hill and wasn't a huge amount as I recall and was a only a few % but you will get unrealistic numbers if you just use stack temp.


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## TCaldwell (Oct 3, 2013)

Has anybody put a combustion analyser to a wood gun at any phase of the burn cycle, i have not seen any posted results on this? In a gasifier secondary air is needed to convert carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide, a high burn temp on primary air alone is subject to high co and nox concentrations. A o2 sensor will show excess air in the fluestream but will not readily recognise the co change fast enough due to the resolution of the scales, o2 , 0-20.9% and co in the ppm range. The easiest way to mitigate high co without the ability to monitor is medium sized dry wood and not to overload the firebox. just wonder how clean any boiler can run without some secondary air


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## Gasifier (Oct 3, 2013)

Infinitymike measures his rather often. He gauges it by how bloodshot the eyes of his little gremlins are. You know. The ones that relight his fires.


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## infinitymike (Oct 3, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> Infinitymike measures his rather often. He gauges it by how bloodshot the eyes of his little gremlins are. You know. The ones that relight his fires.



And also by watching if my neighbor is still walking around in his yard and hasn't passed out from the noxious fumes and or the flying chunks of coal that shoot out of the flue like a hand grenade launcher.


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## Gasifier (Oct 3, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> And also by watching if my neighbor is still walking around in his yard and hasn't passed out from the noxious fumes and or the flying chunks of coal that shoot out of the flue like a hand grenade launcher.


 
You put directional deflectors on yours. Didn't you!  God damn cheater.


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## infinitymike (Oct 3, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> You put directional deflectors on yours. Didn't you!  God damn cheater.


Aimed perfectly south/west. Right for his front door!


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## slowzuki (Oct 8, 2013)

A gasser attempts to have some control of fuel supply using primary air on a ventilation limited fire to gasify then the right balance of secondary to complete combustion in the nozzle.  The jetstream uses only fuel configuration (size species moisture) to have a fuel limited fire with the total air governing the excess air available.  The same hot turbulent mixing and secondary combustion occurs in the nozzle when the mixtures are close.  With forced burn these style of units all share simplicity, ease of light off of the nozzle, ash carryover issues, heat exchanger tube crud up on poor fuels/temps and don't respond well to idling during full load.



TCaldwell said:


> Has anybody put a combustion analyser to a wood gun at any phase of the burn cycle, i have not seen any posted results on this? In a gasifier secondary air is needed to convert carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide, a high burn temp on primary air alone is subject to high co and nox concentrations. A o2 sensor will show excess air in the fluestream but will not readily recognise the co change fast enough due to the resolution of the scales, o2 , 0-20.9% and co in the ppm range. The easiest way to mitigate high co without the ability to monitor is medium sized dry wood and not to overload the firebox. just wonder how clean any boiler can run without some secondary air


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## hobbyheater (Oct 8, 2013)

The Jetstream refractory base.  The cylindrical section is the burn chamber.  The air injection tube that pressurizes this chamber is slotted across the end and is also recessed on the right side, giving a swirling action in the burn chamber for good fuel air mixing, as well as driving any ash from the burning pieces of wood so there is always a fresh surface to be burnt.




The air that passes through the air injection tube is preheated before it enters the burn chamber.
The pathway that any unburnt combustibles must travel through the nozzle is long ensuring almost complete combustion before passing up through the heat exchanger. The burn chamber section that is visible through the loading door will usually glow red, yellow,  white through the burn cycle.



This picture says that maybe I've done this a few too many times!   This is midway through a burn cycle!


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## TCaldwell (Oct 8, 2013)

gotcha, is this the same principle the wood gun operates under.


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## Fred61 (Oct 8, 2013)

TCaldwell said:


> gotcha, is this the same principle the wood gun operates under.


No.


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## hobbyheater (Oct 9, 2013)

TCaldwell said:


> gotcha, is this the same principle the wood gun operates under.





This is looking down into the burn chamber at the end of a 6 hour batch burn , the refractory is red ,yellow and still white in the nozzle entrance.  . The elusive blue flame always shows white when you take a picture ?
When it gets down to a 1/2 inch or so of coals , baked potatoes in 15 minutes.


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## Gasifier (Oct 9, 2013)

Now that's cooking Alan!


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## Quentin Fleurat (Oct 9, 2013)

I been using my wood gun on and off for 24 years.  Bought it used in 1989 then used it for about 3-4 years, stop because oil was 0.65 gallon.  With the price of oil going up around 2003-4 we fired it back up.
Not sure where to start, I've had great times and bad times with the old beast. I have a smoke hood above the loading door, don't have water storage.  The unit is a little under sized for our house, heats 4200 sqft hot water system and produces all our domestic hot water in winter.  We use about 6-10 cords of wood each year.  We fill it up 3- 4 times a day in cold weather (5-32F) and 1-2 times in warmer weather (32-45F).  Without the wood gun running we burn about 1000-1400 gallon of oil a year, with it we burn maybe 200 gallons, mostly when we go away. This unit has severed us well and has out lived it's lifetime, I am planning on replacing it for the 2014-15 season.

The biggest issue I had is the loading door gasket leaking and having to re-caulk it 2 or 3 times a year. I double the frame thickness where it meets the door gasket and that has help a lot.  When leaking it can cause creosote and acid build up.  I have fixed 3 major water leaks in the boiler one in the lower steel plate in front clean out area, one in the back fire refractory and then the biggest one, replaced the bottom large tube that runs from front to back.  Replaced the center fire bricks twice, once shortly after I got it and then about 4 years ago. It occasionally backfires when opening the door but that's not a big deal.  When opening the door, first turn on fan and count to 6 then open the door. I also replaced the fan motor 3 times mostly due to bearings going bad and I did not replace them in timely manner so it killed the motor. This was due to the bearings getting hot, so last year I remounted the motor so it is 6" off the boiler, will post picture at a later date.

My next unit will have storage and be located out in the a small barn, mostly want the get the wood and ash out of the house.  Getting the wood into my basement is a real pain in the ass and a lot of work!  I am designing my barn, with a 5' X 7' hatch in the roof it opens into a wood stall designed for the dropping firewood, then I will use my bobcat to move the wood, dumping into the stall right next to the boiler.

Quentin
Wood Gun 140 Since 1989
2 Stilhl 036 Saws
Home made 4 way Splitter power by Bobcat
2 Bobcats 473 & s150
A Great Family


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## muncybob (Oct 10, 2013)

First, welcome Quentin!!
Replaced the nozzle brick only twice...wow! I have replaced mine already after just under 4 years. I have yet to replace the fan bearing as it seems to work fine and no noise coming from it and I'm assumng I can go until it gets noisy? Looking forward to those pics!


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## Gasifier (Oct 10, 2013)

muncybob said:


> First, welcome Quentin!!
> Replaced the nozzle brick only twice...wow! I have replaced mine already after just under 4 years. I have yet to replace the fan bearing as it seems to work fine and no noise coming from it and I'm assumng I can go until it gets noisy? Looking forward to those pics!


 
It looks like he has only used it for 13 years total. Is that correct?


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## Coal Reaper (Oct 10, 2013)

Quentin,  do you have return water protection for your WG?  And the million dollar question: Will you be replacing it with another WG?


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## Quentin Fleurat (Oct 10, 2013)

In total I used it about 13 years and it is almost 30 years old, not sure how much it was used before I got it.  The center nozzle bricks should be replaced now if I was to keep the WG.  Also replace the bearing before they start making noise.

The design is older, it's all carbon steel, the fire chambers bottom curve is really flat, the air intake is at a low angle and door does not have the fire plate.  I'm on my second loading door.  I don't have return water protection. The wood gun is looped into an exiting oil boiler with the low cutoff on the oil boiler set at about 150, that stops the cold water going back to the wood gun.  I did not know about the RWP until recently, need to know more about it.

I am still deciding what to get, was hope to fine some answers here.  When I first hear about the Tarm or FHG I thought it was prefect, then I learned about the small firebox, cutting wood so short, lots of electronics and the price.  The wood gun is simple design, the newer models are built better today, I still have more research to do before I decide. 

Quentin


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## Gasifier (Oct 11, 2013)

Although I love the fact that the heat radiating from my Wood Gun helps to heat my house, I like your idea of putting it outside in a dedicated building. I may eventually move my Wood Gun just outside my cellar where I have it now. But I don't know. It works well where it is. If I build a ground level boiler room attached to the side of the house I could incorporate enough room to add more storage and then all wood moving could be done with tractor. Set the wood next to the boiler in a crib made of pallets and no more handling it.

Whatever boiler you go with design your space large enough to put storage in with it. Being able to batch burn and heat all your storage up and then shutting the boiler down is the most efficient way to burn wood. Flat out, high temperature fire the whole time. Do the right heating calculations to find out how much storage you need and the size boiler to heat that storage at a reasonable time of burning of course. To heat everything you need to heat, now and any future needs you may have.


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## Quentin Fleurat (Oct 11, 2013)

Same here on heat loss, last night when I went to the basement to feed the fire, the first thing I thought of is how warm the basement is and if the boiler is outside I would lose that heat. The WG definitely needs insulation on all 6 sides not just 3. Maybe the next model will have better insulation?

If I can find some used propane tanks I plan to put the storage in a crawl space under the den, any heat loss from storage would then be in the house.  

Q


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## Gasifier (Oct 11, 2013)

Quentin Fleurat said:


> Same here on heat loss, last night when I went to the basement to feed the fire, the first thing I thought of is how warm the basement is and if the boiler is outside I would lose that heat. The WG definitely needs insulation on all 6 sides not just 3. Maybe the next model will have better insulation?
> 
> If I can find some used propane tanks I plan to put the storage in a crawl space under the den, any heat loss from storage would then be in the house.
> 
> Q


 
Good idea. I would like to keep my storage inside the house in the basement for that reason. I wonder if it would be better though to insulate it as best as possible so the heat goes exactly where you really want it. To your baseboard or whatever heater you are using. I would think the best insulation possible would be the way to go.


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## Quentin Fleurat (Oct 11, 2013)

Yes I agree, I would still insulate the tanks, just the heat loss would be in the house.

Q


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## Pologuy9906 (Oct 12, 2013)

What's the cost of the unit? I don't see pricing put there that often.


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