# Plug in T8 Leds vs line voltage



## peakbagger (Dec 20, 2015)

I was in Home Depot and picked up a couple of Phillips T8 drop in LED replacements tubes. Unlike the early LEDs, these don't require removal of the ballasts. Its a lot quicker but I was curious if anyone has seen the pros and cons of this style versus the style that requires removal of the ballast and rewiring?

Given the price and availability of four foot fixtures, I think I will be scrapping a few 8 footers in my garage and switching over to LEDSs.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 20, 2015)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/t8-fluorescent-led-replacment-bulb-energy-consumption.150371/


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## peakbagger (Dec 20, 2015)

Thanks for the link. I didn't see any head to head comparisons on wattage beyond a comment about possibly ballast loss.


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## Ashful (Dec 20, 2015)

Interested in why you're pulling fluorescent bulbs to switch to LEDs?  Aside from cold starts (not an issue if your garage is heated), I could not find any advantage to LEDs.

I just installed ten 8' fixtures (all dual tandem 4') in my shop this summer.


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## seige101 (Dec 20, 2015)

You would buy the kind line voltage ones so you can remove the ballast. The ballast is another failure point and another place to waste  energy converting it to a different voltage.

With the ballast you are going from 120 volts line voltage to about 500-600 volts, then powering the driver for the LEDS taking that 500-600 volts AC and going to 12-48volts dc to power the LEDS

With the line voltage LEDS you are going from 120 volts line voltage through the driver to 12-48 volts dc.

Every time you convert the power you loose a small % due to inefficiencies in the ballast or transformer


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## peakbagger (Dec 21, 2015)

I understand the concept but to date haven't seen an realistic comparison testing.

The primary reason for running LEDs in place of T-8s is cold temp performance and longevity. I have large 8 foot fixtures in my garage that are useless in cold temps and even my T-8s in my basement don't like the temps when I am not using my wood boiler. If I can get reliable year round light I am willing to switch to two 4' fixtures to replace my 8 footers. In general T-8s seem to have a sharp drop off in performance as they age and I have had to replace them a lot sooner. I have  heard some folks blaming it on cheap electronic ballasts, but I know a building maintenance person who spends 3 times the time he used to swapping out bulbs on new fixtures. Its a hassle as the tenants don't like the interruption, he has to store three times as many new bulbs and has to store and recycle three times more than previously. A lot of the utility programs no longer supply or subsidize commercial CFs due to the lousy reputation they have and are now specifying LEDs.


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## maple1 (Dec 21, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Interested in why you're pulling fluorescent bulbs to switch to LEDs?  Aside from cold starts (not an issue if your garage is heated), I could not find any advantage to LEDs.
> 
> I just installed ten 8' fixtures (all dual tandem 4') in my shop this summer.


 
Bulb life, quality of the light over time, the aforementioned cold start issues, and energy consumption. Flourescent tube fixtures use more juice than is often realized.


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## Highbeam (Dec 21, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> I understand the concept but to date haven't seen an realistic comparison testing.
> 
> The primary reason for running LEDs in place of T-8s is cold temp performance and longevity. I have large 8 foot fixtures in my garage that are useless in cold temps and even my T-8s in my basement don't like the temps when I am not using my wood boiler. If I can get reliable year round light I am willing to switch to two 4' fixtures to replace my 8 footers. In general T-8s seem to have a sharp drop off in performance as they age and I have had to replace them a lot sooner. I have  heard some folks blaming it on cheap electronic ballasts, but I know a building maintenance person who spends 3 times the time he used to swapping out bulbs on new fixtures. Its a hassle as the tenants don't like the interruption, he has to store three times as many new bulbs and has to store and recycle three times more than previously. A lot of the utility programs no longer supply or subsidize commercial CFs due to the lousy reputation they have and are now specifying LEDs.



T8 is not the same as those CFLs.

My insulated shop has 40-4' t8 bulbs for lighting and they work great. Bulbs (tubes) are cheap and I've lost a few over the years. No big deal. The ballasts fire the bulbs at well below freezing (I think they're rated for 0 degrees F) and while it is true that they don't hit full brightness for a minute or so when it is cold, they do it much much faster than those crappy CFLs ever did in my heated home. I'm a big LED guy for round bulbs but in tubes, the T8 is still pretty great.

Technology is changing and I can see a day where the price of a new LED fixture as well as the lumens per watt of LEDs will be superior to the standard T8.


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## jebatty (Dec 21, 2015)

The T8s I replaced were 2800L, 4100K and 28W, 100 L/W. The LEDs were 2100L, 4000K and 17W, 123L/W; also 60% of the wattage, brighter light on the work surface, instant on brightness. Plus the T8s had degraded in light output substantially. Well worth the price.


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## begreen (Dec 21, 2015)

There's some notable difference in ballast designs that can affect startup time, power usage, bulb longevity, etc.. A friend set up his shop with high output T8 fixtures a few years ago. He is already complaining about short bulb life and can get no radio reception in there due to the ballast interference. In spite of the cost he is thinking of tearing them out and replacing them.


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## maple1 (Dec 21, 2015)

I just had a fixture go out in my basement over the weekend - had been degrading & slow starting for a while. I have a few spare bulbs, but I am now on the prowl for some LEDs to try via Ebay. Likely will be the ones that you get rid of the ballast & starter for, I'll try to get a read on differences in power consumption with my Efergy when the times comes when I make the swap. Seems to me that overall consumption with the flourescents when I roughly checked before was close to 2x the rated bulb wattage.


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## mr.fixit (Dec 21, 2015)

I tried the ones that work with the ballast,but if they are older ballast, not electronic,they don't work.
I ended up wiring direct.
I just received some 8 footers for the shop but haven't installed yet.


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## Ashful (Dec 21, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Bulb life, quality of the light over time, the aforementioned cold start issues, and energy consumption. Flourescent tube fixtures use more juice than is often realized.


Actually, quality of light is the primary reason I went with fluorescent.  Just about every last review I read on shop lighting, comparing LED to T8's, favored T8's for better (even, consistent, lack of shadows) lighting in a shop environment.  I spec'd T8's with CRI > 85 and T > 5000K, which are pretty common and inexpensive, by comparison to LED.  If you care, you can buy T8's with CRI up to 98... but this is a shop, not a photo studio.

Energy consumption in the shop or garage is usually a non-issue, based on a combination of low hours, and very little difference in efficiency between the two.

Cold start performance is a valid difference, but I'm not interested in working in a cold garage or shop.  I'd recommend anyone looking at LED shop lighting install fluorescent fixtures, and use the money saved to buy a shop heater.


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## jebatty (Dec 22, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Id recommend anyone looking at LED shop lighting install fluorescent fixtures, and use the


 My experience is the opposite based on actually using LED fluorescent replacement tubes.


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## semipro (Dec 22, 2015)

Ashful said:


> I'd recommend anyone looking at LED shop lighting install fluorescent fixtures, and use the money...





jebatty said:


> My experience is the opposite based on actually using LED fluorescent replacement tubes.


Based on my experience with LED T-8s in my shop and kitchen and the improved illumination performance, lower power consumption, bulb durability, life expectancy, and lack of mercury they offer, I plan never to buy another florescent bulb.


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## semipro (Dec 22, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> I was curious if anyone has seen the pros and cons of this style versus the style that requires removal of the ballast and rewiring?


I was considering going with the "Toggled" brand T8 LED replacements in our kitchen because they were rated with a better CRI than the Philips LED T8 I recently installed.  I decided not to when I found from reading reviews/comments that the more expensive Toggled bulbs, the ones  that require rewiring, also have a start-up lag - some reported a second or two.  I can't tolerate that.  I can report that the Philips "plug and play" bulbs that I installed don't have a perceptible start-up lag.


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## blades (Dec 22, 2015)

Got a couple leds in the house that do the time lag thing. no big deal to me.


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## peakbagger (Dec 22, 2015)

I have a box a various brand new CFLs and expect they will get hauled to the dump as I don't know anyone who wants them. IMHO a transitional technology that has been replaced by a superior one.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2015)

semipro said:


> Based on my experience with LED T-8s in my shop and kitchen and the improved illumination performance, lower power consumption, bulb durability, life expectancy, and lack of mercury they offer, I plan never to buy another florescent bulb.


"shop and kitchen"?  Two completely different applications, with very different requirements.  I would never use fluorescent bulbs of any sort in my house, and kitchen lights are typically left on a good portion of every day, versus a home shop which might get used a few hours a week. 

Again, the OP is talking about a GARAGE, as in a place where you park a car, or maybe work wood and metal on Saturdays.  Ambiance is not a factor, nor is a requirement for 100 hours a week operation.  I'd like to see the return on investment, in terms of lumens per hour, of going LED in a garage.  

Lack of mercury?!?  I'm not eating them.


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## semipro (Dec 22, 2015)

Ashful said:


> "shop and kitchen"? Two completely different applications, with very different requirements.


Agreed but our kitchen already had a T8 fixture in it.   I tried them in the fixture over my workbench and was impressed so I installed in the kitchen, again, very impressed. 


Ashful said:


> Again, the OP is talking about a GARAGE, as in a place where you park a car, or maybe work wood and metal on Saturdays. Ambiance is not a factor, nor is a requirement for 100 hours a week operation. I'd like to see the return on investment, in terms of lumens per hour, of going LED in a garage.


IMO, a garage/shop is a critical place for good lighting.  I'd gladly pay a little more to avoid mangling my hands in a tool.  


Ashful said:


> Lack of mercury?!? I'm not eating them


I've broken many florescent bulbs in my shop for a variety of reasons, mostly related to wood working or replacing them.  Common sense and expert advice dictates you bail out for a while while the particulate matter laden with mercury settles.  Its an inhalation hazard though I'm pretty sure you shouldn't eat it either. Then you need to put on a filtration mask and clean up.  I'd like to avoid this in the future.


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## semipro (Dec 22, 2015)

Ashful said:


> I'd like to see the return on investment, in terms of lumens per hour, of going LED in a garage.


  Me too.  I suspect given the life expectancy of the bulbs, the power savings, and paying myself a bit of time for the hassle of purchasing and installing them, they ROI might be favorable.  That is, if LEDs actually last as long as advertised.   I've never been able to get anywhere near the rated lifetime from florescent bulbs.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2015)

Good points, semipro.  Except the one on mangling your hands in a tool.  My shop is lit up so damn bright with T8's that I just about need sunglasses to work in there.  Ten 32W fixtures in 1200 sq.ft.

Breaking them is a hassle, which is why I have them tucked up between joists on my open-joist ceiling in the new shop.  Very low likelihood of hitting one, but it could conceivably happen.  I was dealing with 7.5' flat ceilings in the last shop, and still only broke one in 13 years.  I guess I'm just not clumsy enough.  

My garage has six 75W soft white incandescent bulbs.  At a suspected average usage of less than 3 minutes per day, I don't see much advantage in using anything else.


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## semipro (Dec 22, 2015)

Ashful said:


> My garage has six 75W soft white incandescent bulbs. At a suspected average usage of less than 3 minutes per day, I don't see much advantage in using anything else.


I totally agree.


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## peakbagger (Dec 23, 2015)

One other advantage to the LEDs are they are in polycarbonate tube. They appear to be a lot more rugged from a glancing blow compared to a glass fluorescent tube


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## sportbikerider78 (Dec 23, 2015)

If you are already running T8's the payback period is normally over 10 years for switching to LEDs.  I had 5 different retrofit companies come into our shop and none of them could get a decent payback period.


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## jebatty (Dec 23, 2015)

A bit odd with all the payback comments. The purpose of lighting is light, not payback. If LED tubes were available when I built my shop 5 years ago, I never would have put in the T8s, which continually degrade in light output. I'm glad I don't have to junk all the fixtures to get the much brighter lighting provided by the LEDs. And if payback is the focus, how about a flashlight for the 3 minutes a day of needed light?


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2015)

jebatty said:


> A bit odd with all the payback comments. The purpose of lighting is light, not payback.



It's always about money. If light was the only concern then we would all be using incandescent for the high CRI.


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## sportbikerider78 (Dec 23, 2015)

jebatty said:


> A bit odd with all the payback comments. The purpose of lighting is light, not payback. If LED tubes were available when I built my shop 5 years ago, I never would have put in the T8s, which continually degrade in light output. I'm glad I don't have to junk all the fixtures to get the much brighter lighting provided by the LEDs. And if payback is the focus, how about a flashlight for the 3 minutes a day of needed light?



Information is never a bad thing.  Do with it as you like.


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## jebatty (Dec 23, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> It's always about money


 Don't you think it's rarely about the money? Whether food, clothes, furniture, cars, trucks, houses, etc., isn't it more about satisfaction, status, appearance, class, comfort, culture, what the Jones think, etc.? So with lighting. Incidentally, incandescent doesn't look at all like light in nature, sunlight. Isn't it a very artificial light based on primitive technology, although advance for its time?


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## Ashful (Dec 23, 2015)

For me, it was all about light.  Money was no object, as we were talking a cost difference of less than 1% in the total project cost, between LED and T8.  I did consider LED, but all three of the electricians who quoted the job recommended against them for shop applications.  I went online, and read up more on them, and found more similar recommendations favoring T8 over LED's for workshops.  You guys make me wonder if I should have given LED a try anyway, but in the face of unanimous recommendation against LEDs, I went T8.  I'm not sorry I did, as they work very well for me, but do wonder about the opposing opinions on the two.


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## peakbagger (Dec 24, 2015)

I have been working on several industrial projects and pretty much universally, they have pulled fluorescents and replaced them with LEDs with occupancy sensors. Most are wifi enabled with dimmers. The lights can be programmed remotely to adjust the lighting level depending on time of day and activity level in an area. It does take a bit of getting used to when walking through an area that the lights follow us as we walk through it. The facility electricians appreciate the LEDs as they are more rugged, don't require special cleanup procedures and seem to have a lot longer more consistent life. Due to the instant on aspects especially in cold areas, the owners see significant savings in the facility lighting costs as intermittent lighting can be used rather than maintaining a base lighting level.


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## semipro (Dec 24, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> One other advantage to the LEDs are they are in polycarbonate tube. They appear to be a lot more rugged from a glancing blow compared to a glass fluorescent tube


I believe this is generally true but I've read that the Philips I bought do actually have a glass component that can break.   That said, the tubes seem much more rugged than standard fluorescents.


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## semipro (Dec 24, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> I have been working on several industrial projects and pretty much universally, they have pulled fluorescents and replaced them with LEDs with occupancy sensors. Most are wifi enabled with dimmers. The lights can be programmed remotely to adjust the lighting level depending on time of day and activity level in an area. It does take a bit of getting used to when walking through an area that the lights follow us as we walk through it. The facility electricians appreciate the LEDs as they are more rugged, don't require special cleanup procedures and seem to have a lot longer more consistent life. Due to the instant on aspects especially in cold areas, the owners see significant savings in the facility lighting costs as intermittent lighting can be used rather than maintaining a base lighting level.


There are related advantages for outdoor (e.g. road) lighting.  LEDs offer full output almost instantaneously and can be dimmed.  So, they can be turned off when not needed and output can be adjusted to achieve the desired illumination rather than the early over-lumination typical of sodium or halogen.  This because age-related dimming of conventional lamps has to be accounted for.


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## maple1 (Dec 24, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> If you are already running T8's the payback period is normally over 10 years for switching to LEDs.  I had 5 different retrofit companies come into our shop and none of them could get a decent payback period.


 
Did they factor in the cost of replacing flourescent tubes when they konk out or go dim over those 10 years? Seems not - I am seeing that aspect semi-regularly here, in my basement.


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## peakbagger (Dec 24, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Did they factor in the cost of replacing flourescent tubes when they konk out or go dim over those 10 years? Seems not - I am seeing that aspect semi-regularly here, in my basement.


Same with me, I don't run the fluorescent fixtures that often but they still seem to go dim fairly rapidly. Of course it may be that the T-8s tubes were A grade. I have to recycle the tubes at my town garage which is generally closed when I am not working so it means keeping dead tubes around and hoping I don't break them. I would guess at best my break rate of dead tubes is about 30%.


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## Ashful (Dec 24, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Did they factor in the cost of replacing flourescent tubes when they konk out or go dim over those 10 years? Seems not - I am seeing that aspect semi-regularly here, in my basement.


I think we were still running all of the original 1981 vintage T12 tubes in our quad 8' shop fixtures, when we sold mom's house a few years ago.  That shop got used a lot, but not enough to rip thru a single fluorescent bulb in 20+ years.  Again, OP is asking about a residential garage not a commercial application.


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## Jack Fate (Dec 25, 2015)

I didn't see any discussion on the high cost of failure on LEDs 
Of $300 of LEDs I've purchased in the last 8 yrs $200 worth failed in a few months.


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## begreen (Dec 25, 2015)

Ouch. I have yet to have one fail but we only have 4 in the house at present. It will take us several years to use up our supply of CFLs.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 25, 2015)

That has been my experience with CFLs. Most of the ones I installed have failed.


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## begreen (Dec 25, 2015)

I date ours. The oldest is going on 5 yrs. now. We haven't had an early failure since the first generation bulbs. They get the most use in the kitchen and dining rooms. Average life there is 2-3 yrs..


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## jebatty (Dec 25, 2015)

Jack Fate said:


> I didn't see any discussion on the high cost of failure on LEDs.


 I've installed 40+ LED bulbs, 1st 20 @ $10 each, price dropping to about $3 each for later ones. Longest in use 2+ years now. Two have failed, one right away, the 2nd after almost 2 years but was buzzing after a couple of months. At current prices cost of failure is nominal. I see $2/bulb prices now. These have been much more reliable than CFLs.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 25, 2015)

I have measured 125 volts in the place most of the time. That may be eating them up.


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## Jack Fate (Dec 25, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> That has been my experience with CFLs. Most of the ones I installed have failed.


 
My only failure fixture is a triple lamp that hangs in a stairwell second floor.The bulbs mount base end up .Figure it's a heat displacement issue. Now have Leds there. 
Personally I choose the 6500K screw base & at .99 cents for 3 ,hard to pass up.Haven't seen any LEDs over 5000k & those don't seem to come up on sale for a good price around here

What ever works for ya 

Cheers


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