# cat vs. non-cat - pro's and con's



## Ashful (Jun 6, 2012)

I've been searching on "cat vs. non-cat", and have found a few mentions of various pro's and con's of each, but by no means a comprehensive, "here's why you want a cat stove," or "here's why you want a non-cat stove." I assume both have their pro's and con's, otherwise one would have by now completely replaced the others. But for a relative newbie, what are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Thanks!

edit:  I should add that I currently own a cat stove in one end of the house, and am looking for a second stove for the other end of the house.  So, I have some familiarity with cat stoves, but none with modern reburn flutes.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jun 6, 2012)

Joful, there have been many debates on this forum about cat vs. non-cat. A lot of information is old stuff and years ago there were stoves with cats that were not that good. I think that information still gets mixed in with today's stoves and cats which is wrong. I recall before we bought out last stove, the Woodstock Fireview, that we did not want a cat stove. It was simply because we had heard some bad things about them. Long story short, we now own a cat stove.

Here are the benefits we received with this stove compared to our last stove, which was a big old Ashley. First and foremost is that we now burn only half the amount of wood we used to and we stay a whole lot warmer! We used to be cold in mid winter and even closed off part of the house. It was so cold in here that in January we'd move the kitchen table right next to the wood stove so we'd be comfortable while eating.

Another great benefit is how clean this stove burns. With our old Ashley we used to clean the chimney 3-4 times per winter. We've had the Fireview for 5 full winters now and have cleaned the chimney one time and there was absolutely no creosote.

Cat stoves are made too so that you can let the stove sort of smolder, that is, a very low fire, but still burn clean. So this gives long burn times with no worries about creosote.

Naturally someone will be commenting on the maintenance of the cat stoves. Yes, there is some maintenance involved. Once per winter we clean the cat. It takes 2-4 minutes maximum and is so easy a child could do it. The tool we use for cleaning the cat is an old paint brush.

The cats do have to be replaced every so often. We read anywhere from 2-10 years or more. It seems one fellow has had his cat longer than 10 years but I don't recall just how long. He has not posted for a while now.


Having written the above, I'll now add that more meaningful than cat vs non-cat is the issue of the fuel. If you have good fuel (many don't) then you can make most stoves burn really good. If you have poor or marginal fuel, you will have poor results no matter what stove you have. This fact comes up over and over and over every year. New people getting into burning wood. Get the stove and chimney and then go looking for the fuel. That won't work. Others listen to "age old wisdom" that has been passed down untold generations. We find most of that information to be very poor.


And now we can also add that there are stoves out there with both technologies. The Woodstock Progress for example is a hybrid which has a catalyst and also secondary burn tubes.


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2012)

There are tons of long threads on this topic. It seems to come up about 3-4 times a year, every single year.

Here is a small sampling from the dozens of threads on this topic:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cat-vs-non-cat-half-time-report.79181
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/catalyst-vs-non-catalyst.80902
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pacific-energy-super-27-or-dutchwest-2461.80584
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/so-the-shopping-begins.78769/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cat-stove-questions.77818/


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## rdust (Jun 6, 2012)

Haven't seen one of these for a "little" while. 

I've had both and currently have a cat stove.  In short the cat stove fits my lifestyle best currently.  Long, low, slow and clean burns.  If I was retired and home all day to feed a stove a non cat would still be on the hearth since the view of the fire is hard to beat.  This cat stove when burning in the shoulder season is nothing short of amazing, fill it full every time, turn it down low, let it burn for 24 hours and never over heat the house.


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## Ashful (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks, begreen.  I had seen some of those of those threads in my own search, but not all.  They seem to confirm my suspicion that a cat stove is the way to go for someone who wants to load the stove up and run it on low all day while the house is empty, or overnight when you really don't need much more than 60*F in the house.  Untrue?

If true, I'm having trouble figuring out why the majority of manufacturers seem to be producing only non-cat's.  I'm all but convinced I should be buying another cat stove, but there aren't a ton of options there.

I thought hogwildz was going to blow a headgasket in that second thread you posted.  !!


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2012)

Agreed, this is why I suggested a Woodstock Keystone for this room. Hog is passionate and tells it like he feels it. He's also an exceptionally helpful member, both on and off the forum. Wouldn't have him be any other way.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 6, 2012)

Go with begreen's suggestions. If you are running one stove, the difference between the two technologies is minimal in terms of what you will experience. When running multiple stoves, burn times are a huge priority. And a cat stove wins out when you don't need a lot of heat, but still need long burn cycles.


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## mellow (Jun 6, 2012)

I have had both new cat and non-cat inserts.  A non-cat stove is easier to operate by people that want heat with little or no fuss.   A cat stove does take some learning about how to operate it correctly.

Example:  You cant burn drift wood in a Cat stove, it will damage the cats making them less efficient and sending more pollutants into the air over time.   A tube burner will burn it with no fuss.


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## Todd (Jun 6, 2012)

I think the thing I like most about my cat stoves is how you can load them up full in the shoulder seasons and burn them low and slow for those long burns and it won't roast you out. With my previous non cats I always controlled heat output by the amount of splits I threw in the box. Just seems more control with a cat stove but when it gets cold you will burn either type of stove hotter and the burn times even out.


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## Slow1 (Jun 6, 2012)

I had a fire today in my stove... yeah, weird I know, but the wife was cold and who was I to argue.  I was very happy to be able to get it going, then engage the cat and turn it down for a nice low burn that I knew would keep it pumping out a bit of heat all morning (well, all day, but I don't expect she cared after noon... then again, maybe she did).  I took kids to school and no smoke out the chimney despite the nice low 250* stove top temp and happy wife in the house.  I don't imagine that would have been quite as easy with the non-cat, but I haven't tried with a burn tube type stove so I really can't say for sure.

Bottom line from my understanding is that when you want to burn low/slow and clean, cat stoves can shine, in the peak heating season or whenever you really want to pump heat out of the stove as quickly as possible both styles (in well designed stoves) can do an excellent job and the differences pretty much fade away.  Whatever stove you burn, you will get better results with better fuel - that shouldn't be a surprise.


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## Ashful (Jun 6, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> Go with begreen's suggestions. If you are running one stove, the difference between the two technologies is minimal in terms of what you will experience. When running multiple stoves, burn times are a huge priority. And a cat stove wins out when you don't need a lot of heat, but still need long burn cycles.


 
Definitely.  My spreadsheet basically started with the stoves begreen recommended.



Todd said:


> I think the thing I like most about my cat stoves is how you can load them up full in the shoulder seasons and burn them low and slow for those long burns and it won't roast you out. With my previous non cats I always controlled heat output by the amount of splits I threw in the box. Just seems more control with a cat stove but when it gets cold you will burn either type of stove hotter and the burn times even out.


 
Interesting, because that hasn't been my experience with the Jotul F12. Now, I'm a newb with more questions than answers, but whenever I tried to burn that real low with warmer outside temps, I'd have problems with whuffing. I had lots of trouble keeping the stove temps down to something reasonable if I put more than 3 splits in on all but the coldest days.

Disclaimer is I had just moved into the house in August, and was burning anything but ideally dry wood.


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## scroungerjeff (Jun 6, 2012)

My non-cat stove/ fireplace gives excellent heat and heats our home pretty easily so far.  Truth is we've only had this past wimpy winter to test it. The only drawback is the burn times are not as long as advertised.  I have talked with friends with cat stoves and they load it once or twice a day.  I really don't mind too much, as I have a pretty effecient natural gas furnace to pick up the slack when we are away or working late.  I enjoy the big glass doors and the traditional fireplace look and feel.  I even enjoy getting up and feeding it and stoking it several times a day.  Since I am rather new to burning with these modern appliances, I expect better results as my wood piles age and season better.  However, if I were to totally rely on wood, I think I'd go cat.


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2012)

I think you are going to get the whuffing under control. It sounds like the last attempt with more air was more successful. Perhaps the next step can be to run 6" all the way up to the top and with a new cap.

If the smaller room stove has a taller 2 story liner and the wood is nice and dry, I don't think you are going to experience whuffing in the new stove, cat or non-cat unless the fire is starved for air.


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## Ziprich (Jun 6, 2012)

i have heard about a cat stove. my TL-300 is a cat stove right? i know they talk about the secondarys on the stove. is that the same thing? i feel like i should know the answer, but i dont. thanks.


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2012)

The TL-300 is not a catalytic stove.

http://www.harmanstoves.com/Products/TL300-Wood-Stove.aspx?page=Features


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## dafattkidd (Jun 7, 2012)

For a guy like Dennis who has a ton of space to store wood, and is years ahead in his wood supply a cat is definitely a great option.  I on the other hand have limited space on my property so I don't always have ideal wood to burn.  Oak takes two years to dry out.  I burn mostly 1 year seasoned wood so my oak is always a bit dicey.  So for me a non cat makes a bit more sense.  

If I had acreage I'd probably be a cat owner.  That being said, non cats are very impressive.  I regularly get 12-15 hours from the start of a fire to a legitimate coal bed in my non cat insert.  Granted after 8 hours or so I'm usually not getting any real usable heat.


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## Wood Duck (Jun 7, 2012)

I have a non-cat stove and I like it just fine, but I think I would next time buy a larger stove with a cat. In concept the non-cat stove seems simpler. There is only one air adjustment, no bypass (to let the exhaust gasses bypass the cat when you reload and get a bunch of water vapor in the exhaust), and no need to learn what a catalyst is or how it works. In practice, the non-cat requires more attention to keep it burning cleanly because you can't set it for a low, smouldery burn and go to bed. My stove is prone to either overfiring or smoking if I do not periodically adjust the air setting during the burn cycle. It isn't a lot of work and I can get by with only one or two adjustments of the air with the last one about 30 to 60 minutes after reloading, but I think with a cat stove i could avoid that last air adjustment and still get a clean, long burn. The adjustments are not a big concern while I am here and awake, but at night or when I want to reload then leave the house it is important.

as for maintenance, I think any stove (or any appliance of any kind) may require some maintenance. i don't get the impression that cat stove owners are buying new cats all that often.. all stoves including non-cat stoves occasionally require new gaskets, replacement fire bricks, etc.


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## Highbeam (Jun 11, 2012)

I have two spaces to heat. A house and a shop. Both the same SF but the shop has 14 foot ceilings and is allowed to cool. I want a cat stove for the house since I want it to be warm all the time and I want a non-cat for the shop since I want to quickly heat that thing up from ice cold. The cat stoves aren't ideal for making huge btus right away, and they aren't ideal at burning junk, burn times are (get this) too long if there is such a thing since I don't want an unattended fire in the shop any longer than required.

Oh and the cat stoves cost a lot more. Measured against the golden standard NC30 for less than 750$, a comparable plate steel catalytic BK king will cost 3000$ or more. A smaller stove like the woodstock PH is a bit cheaper than 3000$ but not cheap.

In the home, burn times are the prime factor and a cat stove earns that extra cost.


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2012)

Cat stoves definitely cost more, they have more parts. Still, I wouldn't directly compare the 30NC to the BKK. It is a good value stove, but not a gold standard. There are cost cutting measures with the 30NC that are not in some higher end steel stoves. This isn't to fault the stove, it represents a great value at $1099 (normal selling price). But there are differences between it and say a Lopi Liberty or PE Summit. Also the BKK has unique features like thermostat control and a larger firebox (more steel) which add to the cost.

A more realistic comparison might be a $1099 30NC to a Buck 80 or maybe an $2000 Appalachian 52 Bay? Comparing a cheap big stove (Englander, Drolet, etc.) to a deluxe and unique stove like the PH is not realistic. If all you want is heat, then go for the best value. But in the case of the OP, the stove will be in a classic and elegant setting. I don't see an Englander going in here.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 11, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> The cat stoves aren't ideal for making huge btus right away


 
Eh, I don't know about that...



> Oh and the cat stoves cost a lot more. Measured against the golden standard NC30 for less than 750$, a comparable plate steel non-cat BK king will cost 3000$ or more. A smaller stove like the woodstock PH is a bit cheaper than 3000$ but not cheap.


 
Says the man running a non-cat stove that costs $3,000 for the enameled version.


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## Ashful (Jun 11, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> I have two spaces to heat. A house and a shop... I want a cat stove for the house since I want it to be warm all the time and I want a non-cat for the shop since I want to quickly heat that thing up from ice cold. The cat stoves aren't ideal for making huge btus right away, and they aren't ideal at burning junk, burn times are (get this) too long if there is such a thing since I don't want an unattended fire in the shop any longer than required.


 
You may have a good plan there, with regard to a cat stove in the house and a non-cat in the shop, but I don't think you're reasoning is entirely sound.  My Jotul Firelight 12 (cat stove) seems capable of delivering some pretty huge BTU's in short order. My problem has been more the opposite, getting the thing cranked down for a low burn on a full load before cooking myself out of the house. Haven't quite mastered that yet, and settling for just loading fewer sticks at a time for now.

Here's what I have gathered from this thread and others:

Cat stoves will not perform well with marginally seasoned wood, which non-cats may burn without fuss.  Cat stoves can be loaded and cranked down (assuming good draft conditions), and left to burn on a very low setting for hours, without losing the secondary burn and fouling up your chimney.  Cat stoves require you to occasionally remove, inspect, and even replace the cat converter.  A catalytic converter will last 5 - 6 years for most people, but can be damaged in a day if the stove is overfired.  Non-cat stoves have a shallower learning curve, and will generally cause less frustration for beginners.  Both stoves will yield similar efficiency when burned medium to high, but the non-cat's may require more frequent fiddling to keep the secondaries going at very low burn rates.

Do I finally get it, guys?


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2012)

Actually, non-cat EPA stoves aren't too happy about semi-seasoned wood either. It will burn, but the heat output and creosote accumulation may disappoint. Secondary burning is just one phase of the burn cycle. It only lasts for about 1/3 of the total burn cycle.


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## Highbeam (Jun 12, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> Says the man running a non-cat stove that costs $3,000 for the enameled version.


 
I never said that I wouldn't pay good money for a stove where looks are important. In the shop, I won't be buying a fancy schmancy stove though and I find that a non-cat is actually superior out there since I can get a brand new one for well under 1000$ and I can throw anything in it meaning wood scraps, cardboard, beer cans, junk wood, whatever and it will burn with minimal fuss.

I say the NC30 is the golden standard non-cat because it is the most stove you can get for the least amount of money. It is not a fancy stove. I guess it depends on what your priorities are but if money is no object, there are surely more aesthetically pleasing stoves than an NC30.

The BK king is 1 CF larger, weighs about the same so not much extra steel, and is built to similar quality standards as an englander. It is not a fancy stove but it is superior to all available stoves in terms of function when used to heat a home. The BKking costs 3-5 times as much as the englander and for that extra money you get a cat and a stat. Very little else.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 12, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> It is not a fancy stove but it is superior to all available stoves in terms of function when used to heat a home.


 
Except for those that want a large stove for really long burn times at a lower temp. Then the 30 is not Superior.



> The BKking costs 3-5 times as much as the englander and for that extra money you get a cat and a stat. Very little else.


 

That could be said about nearly every other stove on the market, cat or non-cat.

Let's look at other large non-cat stoves:
Jotul F600, about 3 grand.
Hearthstone Equinox, about 4 grand.
Lopi Liberty, $2,800-3,000.
Regency F3100, $2,000-2,500.


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## Highbeam (Jun 12, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> The BK king is 1 CF larger, weighs about the same so not much extra steel, and is built to similar quality standards as an englander. It is not a fancy stove but it is superior to all available stoves in terms of function when used to heat a home. The BKking costs 3-5 times as much as the englander and for that extra money you get a cat and a stat. Very little else.


 
You'll note here, that I am saying that the BK is the superior heater. We agree on this. A large stove for long and low heat is awesome.

We also agree that those other stoves are all overpriced compared to the NC30 when looking at function. What you get for spending the extra money on your listed stoves is fancy shmancy stuff like stone, more precision build quality, and cast iron.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 12, 2012)

And, just to be clear, I will be heating with a 30 this year once the Heritage is sold.


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## begreen (Jun 12, 2012)

> What you get for spending the extra money on your listed stoves is fancy shmancy stuff like stone, more precision build quality, and cast iron.


 
I think there is no argument that the 30NC or a big Drolet represent great value. But there are cost saving compromises and differences.

PE Summit, ~$2200 steel stove with a better baffle system, no burn tubes, full outer jacket, heavier gauge metal, etc..

The BK is not just a stove that has a cat added. It has a lot of engineering tweaks that make it perform well. This is particularly beneficial with softwood burning. Ultimately you are paying for ease of use, extended burntimes and long term durability. Evidently this is a good formula. They sell well.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 12, 2012)

begreen said:


> I think there is no argument that the 30NC or a big Drolet represent great value. But there are cost saving compromises and differences.
> 
> PE Summit, ~$2200 steel stove with a better baffle system, no burn tubes, full outer jacket, heavier gauge metal, etc..
> 
> The BK is not just a stove that has a cat added. It has a lot of engineering tweaks that make it perform well. This is particularly beneficial with softwood burning. Ultimately you are paying for ease of use, extended burntimes and long term durability. Evidently this is a good formula. They sell well.


 

Speaking of the Summit, it is one of the few stove I find less appealing than the 30 or the Blaze King. The damn thing looks like a Microwave.


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## Highbeam (Jun 12, 2012)

begreen said:


> It has a lot of engineering tweaks that make it perform well. This is particularly beneficial with softwood burning. Ultimately you are paying for ease of use, extended burntimes and long term durability. Evidently this is a good formula. They sell well.


 
I'd like to think that all of the same can be said about the NC30 but at a significantly lower price.

My ideal setup would be a BK princess in the house and a 30 in the shop. These stoves are top two on my list for different reasons but they are at the top.


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## begreen (Jun 12, 2012)

Sounds like a good combo.


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## BKVP (Jun 13, 2012)

This is a great thread and I would like to add just a bit of clarity if I might. First, the observation that the cat stoves burn dirty and stuff can go out the chimney when the cat fails is accurate. However, for the better part of a decade (average lifespan in our products and we now have a 10 year warranty on our cats) 100% of VOC's are destroyed when the cat is above 550F. As well, about 65% of methane is also destroyed. As a manufacturer of both current technologies, I can assure you that is not the case for non catalytic models.

As for moisture levels in fuel, lab studies have shown that hardwoods burn dirtier than soft woods, both cord wood and pellet. Also, hard woods do take longer to season (dry out) than soft woods. Additionally, any manufacturers lurking about in this forum can coo berate the fact that the first hour of combustion sees the greatest reduction in fuel weight as a result of water being boiled out of the fuel. So if you burn your stove, cat or non cat for an hour or so on a high burn setting and then shut it down for the day or evening, you can mitigate most of the issues surrounding moisture in fuel. I say most because regardless of combustion technology, moisture in fuel results in dirtier emissions so we should all endeavor to burn as dry a fuel as possible.

Are you familiar with the term cold starts? EPA has coined this phrase and is looking for data relating to emissions during the restarting or refueling of a cold wood stove. Factually, some of the cleanest burning non catalytic wood stoves can take up to 45 minutes to reach clean burning status. Once all the mass is up to temperature, the stoves burn exceptionally clean. The problem of course is they are relit much more often than a large catalytic wood stove. As for reaching clean burning status in catalytic stoves, once the cat gets above 550 clean burning has begun and we have seen this happen in as little as 9 minutes with specific substrate materials.

As far as heat output, boy marketing guys are good! Fact, the EPA says there are 8,600 Btu's in a pound of hardwood fuel. Regardless of whether it is 8,600 or 9,000, just remember it is limited. So when you are shopping for a new stove, just look at the total amount of weight in pounds the stove can hold with fuel at 20% moisture content ( a nice round average although not ideal). If a stove will hold 50 lbs. of wood at 20%, then it has a maximum total Btu production of 430,000 Btu's from that load.  As manufacturers we can't fudge that number.

Then locate a brochure for the stove from prior to 2008 (when the Fed. Tax Credit allowed nearly every stove to be eligible for the tax credit) and get the HHV (high heat value) efficiency for the stoves. Most were around 78% on the brochures for the LHV, so just subtract 10-11% and you'll get the HHV value.

Back to the example above, so the stove has 430,000 Btu's in the load and has a HHV (real world) efficiency of 68%. That leaves 292,400 Btu's to actually heat your home. Divide that by burn time and you can easily get the average heat output of the stove. If a stove has a low burn time of 10 hours, that 29,240 Btu's per hour in your home. If the high burn times is 5 hours, you get 58,480 Btus's AVERAGE into your home.

All the rest is marketing.


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## dafattkidd (Jun 13, 2012)

How does the industry officially define burn time?


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## Slow1 (Jun 13, 2012)

dafattkidd said:


> How does the industry officially define burn time?


 
It seems that it is defined however the marketing department of whatever stove manufacturer wants to use it...  in other words - there isn't a 'legal' definition of the term so it is used inconsistently.  You can perhaps get a sense of things another way - take the formula that BKVP gave and run it another way - when you see the marketing material given by a stove manufacturer, they often give the stove output in BTUs - so, take the total amount you can put in the stove (say the 430,000 in the example BKVP used if that is what would fit in that stove) and divide it by the rated output of the stove and see if it matches what they are claiming for burn time...   However you want to define the burn time, you can figure out the *average* output during that time if you know how much fuel is in there eh?


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## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2012)

Do you suppose that the efficiency is the same for a non-cat trying to burn 10 hours as one trying to burn the same load in 5 hours? Since the efficiency percentage is directly related to this calculation, any variability will directly effect the results.

I always thought that a non-cat at med/high outputs was far more efficient then a non-cat choked down for max burn times.

I notice that BKVP convenienty left out, or wanted us to solve, the efficiency of the BK cat units which is well above the standard. 

I have an honest question. BK cat stoves are awesome at low and slow. How do they do at hot and fast? How hot can you get the stove? Would it make a decent heater for the shop where a fast warm up is important? I would honestly have a hard time burning anything other than dry fuel after years of learning how important that is with the non-cat stone stove in my home.


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## TX-L (Jun 13, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> I have an honest question. BK cat stoves are awesome at low and slow. How do they do at hot and fast? How hot can you get the stove? Would it make a decent heater for the shop where a fast warm up is important? I would honestly have a hard time burning anything other than dry fuel after years of learning how important that is with the non-cat stone stove in my home.


 
I have burned my BKK at full air for a period of time with the cat engaged, hot and fast as you described it, just to see what she would do.  My stovetop, even with the fans on high speed, was approaching 800, at which point I backed the stat setting down; no need to get crazy.  The firebox was a raging inferno, the cat was brilliant red.  I don't know if/how this might degrade the cat over time with repeated cycles, and this is not necessary for a house, but might be wanted in a shop for initial heat-up.  It seems like one member, Solar and Wood, said he burns his at a "3" setting (high) with his fans on high when it's cold out and has 12 hour reload cycles, but not sure what his stovetop is during this time.  Wood type and draft would certainly affect the operation.


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## jeff_t (Jun 13, 2012)

Yep, 800 isn't hard to do. I have my thermometer in the center of the stove, right in front of the convection deck, which is pretty much on top of the cat. One of these days I will get an IR to see how the rest of the stove runs. That's a pretty big piece of metal giving off a lot of heat at those temps. I have come home to the house in the mid 50s, with the stove just warm to the touch, and been at 75 in less than two hours. Of course, that's just the air temp. Everything in the house was still cold, and didn't feel really good until the next morning.


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## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2012)

Three thousand dollars! Ugh, why must they cost so much?


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## jeff_t (Jun 13, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> Three thousand dollars! Ugh, why must they cost so much?



Because they can?


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## Todd (Jun 13, 2012)

Applied ceramics says not to burn cats at continuous temps over 1600 or it will degrade cat life. I can easily reach those temps if I burn at higher air settings. It's probably ok to get her up there once in awhile but if you need that much heat get a bigger stove.

Maybe the BK stoves tstat keeps the cat temps down below that threshold even running at higher settings?


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm sticking by the numbers I've seen and three grand for a large stove is right about middle of the road. Though, I do believe the BKK is north of four grand on the east coast.


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## dafattkidd (Jun 16, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> It seems that it is defined however the marketing department of whatever stove manufacturer wants to use it...  in other words - there isn't a 'legal' definition of the term so it is used inconsistently.  You can perhaps get a sense of things another way - take the formula that BKVP gave and run it another way - when you see the marketing material given by a stove manufacturer, they often give the stove output in BTUs - so, take the total amount you can put in the stove (say the 430,000 in the example BKVP used if that is what would fit in that stove) and divide it by the rated output of the stove and see if it matches what they are claiming for burn time...   However you want to define the burn time, you can figure out the *average* output during that time if you know how much fuel is in there eh?



That is my understanding of it as well.  BKVP i would really appreciate your input on this question.  How does BK define burn time as an organization?  Is there an industry standardized definition?


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## Ashful (Jun 19, 2012)

After seeing High Valley Stoves mentioned as a catalytic stove option, I saw a very pretty enamel green shallow-depth top-load catalytic stove in this video on their home page:



However, I don't see this stove anywhere in their product offerings.  In fact, it looks more like a Jotul or a Lopi than anything available from High Valley.  Can anyone identify this stove?  Is it a cat stove?


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## kingquad (Jun 19, 2012)

Joful said:


> After seeing High Valley Stoves mentioned as a catalytic stove option, I saw a very pretty enamel green shallow-depth top-load catalytic stove in this video on their home page:
> 
> 
> 
> However, I don't see this stove anywhere in their product offerings. In fact, it looks more like a Jotul or a Lopi than anything available from High Valley. Can anyone identify this stove? Is it a cat stove?



Looks like a VC(Vermont Castings). The older VC cat models had problems. Well documented here. The new 2n1 models seem to be more durable.  It's a newer design though, so no long term data available yet.


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## begreen (Jun 19, 2012)

Looks like a VC stove to me.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 19, 2012)

kingquad said:


> Looks like a VC(Vermont Castings). *The older VC cat models had problems.* Well documented here. The new 2n1 models seem to be more durable. It's a newer design though, so no long term data available yet.


 

The primary problem with the older VC cat stoves was maintenance costs and extensive use of gaskets. You had/have to budget in the future cost of the refractory parts + catalyst. Also, every few years you have to replace the gaskets on the fireback, damper, back panel casting, ash pan, double doors, and top loading lid.

Burning with dry wood in a lined chimney and they run like champs. But, due to the maintenance, it is not a stove that you can fall behind on the maintenance. And this means the majority of the stove buying public falls into this category.

With the new stove, the refractory parts has been replaced with a far stronger, and seemingly superior material. While a more traditional catalyst is used cutting down on the replacement costs even further. But, it is still a stove that relies heavily on gasket maintenance. Which means most stove buyers will burn it until it is a leaky, uncontrollable mess. I look forward to this, as it means I will be able to upgrade the Encore and the Defiant to the newer models for ten cents on the dollar in the coming years.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 19, 2012)

begreen said:


> Looks like a VC stove to me.


 
Correct.


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## Ashful (Jun 19, 2012)

Thanks guys.

So, if the world has gone non-cat, and the advice I receive here is that non-cat's require babysitting thru the burn cycle to keep the secondaries going while maintaining a low burn (something the cat stoves do naturally), how is anyone getting away with keeping non-cat's going unattended all day and night?  Seems I've been getting some conflicting information.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 19, 2012)

Joful said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> So, if the world has gone non-cat, and the advice I receive here is that *non-cat's require babysitting thru the burn cycle to keep the secondaries going while maintaining a low burn* (something the cat stoves do naturally), how is anyone getting away with keeping non-cat's going unattended all day and night? Seems I've been getting some conflicting information.


 

Incorrect. Throw less wood in a non-cat for less heat. As long as your wood is dry and your chimney is smokeless, don't worry about secondary burns.

With non-cat stoves, you burn them one way. Char the wood and adjust the air as needed for a clean burn.

Cat stoves allow you to stuff the stove full and burn clean at a low burn, if needed. Some folks do not need this option. Others do. It is your choice.


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## rdust (Jun 19, 2012)

Joful said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> So, if the world has gone non-cat, and the advice I receive here is that non-cat's require babysitting thru the burn cycle to keep the secondaries going while maintaining a low burn (something the cat stoves do naturally), how is anyone getting away with keeping non-cat's going unattended all day and night? Seems I've been getting some conflicting information.


 
I had a non cat(Lopi Endevor) before the BK and I didn't have to babysit it once it was settled in.  The first hour or so of the burn could be interesting as it headed for 700+ but after it settled in it was fine.  Of course it didn't burn "slow and low" which is the main reason it's gone.  If I was around I'd open the air up near the end of the burn to help burn the coals up but other than that it worked "ok".  The secondaries are only going to burn at the beginning part of the burn so after a couple/few hours they're typically long gone.  Some non cats may burn low better than others but my Lopi was up and down, no way I could ever get a steady low burn out of it with a full load.  If I wanted it to burn low I loaded smaller loads which was a PITA since I'm still working age and don't have the time to be loading small loads to control output.  With the BK I load it up and forget about it for hours and hours and hours.


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## begreen (Jun 19, 2012)

Believe me I am not a fire babysitter. I love that I can load our stove and once the air control is on low, walk away until 6-8 hrs later with a full load.


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## firefighterjake (Jun 20, 2012)

begreen said:


> Believe me I am not a fire babysitter. I love that I can load our stove and once the air control is on low, walk away until 6-8 hrs later with a full load.


 
Ditto . . . 30-45 minutes after reloading on to hot coals . . . and the stove is cruising and I'm either off to bed, out the door or doing something around the house . . . no baby sitting needed.


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## rdust (Jun 20, 2012)

begreen said:


> Believe me I am not a fire babysitter. I love that I can load our stove and once the air control is on low, walk away until 6-8 hrs later with a full load.


 
I've always thought the PE stoves would've gave me a better non cat experience.  What type of stove top temp does your stove get on "low"?


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2012)

Define low. Are you talking the long decline of a fire, short hot fires or medium cruisers? A low fire on the stove could be 400F stove top, though that is not as hot as it sounds because much of that heat is soaked up by the cast iron jacket. The residual heat can go on for hours due to the mass of the stove. In behavior the Alderleas are somewhat like soapstone stoves in this regard. But on the opposite spectrum you can take it up hotter on the stove top when necessary.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> Throw less wood in a non-cat for less heat... Cat stoves allow you to stuff the stove full and burn clean at a low burn, if needed.


 
So it seems non-cats are not a viable solution for those out of the house for 8 - 10 hours a day, and not wanting to wake up in the middle of the night to reload every couple hours.



rdust said:


> Some non cats may burn low better than others but my Lopi was up and down, no way I could ever get a steady low burn out of it with a full load. If I wanted it to burn low I loaded smaller loads which was a PITA since I'm still working age and don't have the time to be loading small loads to control output.


 
Ditto.



begreen said:


> Believe me I am not a fire babysitter. I love that I can load our stove and once the air control is on low, walk away until 6-8 hrs later with a full load.


 
So, I guess what you're saying is the curve below is not properly scaled. The portion where the temp shoots way up is not half the burn duration, as shown, but more like the first 45 minutes of an 8 hour burn cycle? Still not an attractive thought, given I'm heating 1000 sq.ft. from a 200 sq.ft. room, but better than what I had assumed from gathering other comments made about non-cat's in various threads.







Still looking for an attractive 2 cu.ft. cast iron cat stove!


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2012)

You can make statistics graph in all sorts of convenient ways. Without meaningful x and y scales and info on what non-cat stove was used, where temps were taken, etc., this is just marketing. And in the dead of winter, when you want real steady heat, the cat or firedome graphs would be much more similar.


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## Highbeam (Jun 20, 2012)

Joful said:


> So it seems non-cats are not a viable solution for those out of the house for 8 - 10 hours a day, and not wanting to wake up in the middle of the night to reload every couple hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You would do well with a cat stove, they are great for the guy that wants long burn times in a small space. In your shoes I would run, not walk, to WS and buy one of their dinky stone cat stoves. Nothing is better for your small space and burn time desires.

That said, you are having a hard time letting go of the bad information you received about non-cats. They are less complicated than cat stoves and the medium sized stoves above 2 CF can easily make it overnight or through a normal shift of work. You need to decide before bed if you want heat being produced all night. That might mean the house is too hot or too cold when you wake up. The non-cat will generally make your house temps go up and down as the graph above shows where the cat stove with a long and low burn can keep it steadier, again, as the graph shows.


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## Highbeam (Jun 20, 2012)

There is a severe lack of attractive or conventional looking cat stoves on the market. If you want a cat stove you will have to choose from the limited available styles and learn to appreciate the beauty of utility.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2012)

Thanks, guys! I've been slow on coming around to Woodstock, primarily because we preferred the cosmetics of cast iron, and the (slightly) faster response times when lighting a cold stove. But, it really does seem all indicators are pointing us that way. I will have to take a closer look at their clearances, and see how their stoves will work in our setting.

Speaking of which, I got my gas insert removed last night, and finally crawled into this cavernous fireplace for the first time.  I found some very interesting stuff, which will have to be the subject of another thread some time soon.


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## rdust (Jun 20, 2012)

begreen said:


> Define low. Are you talking the long decline of a fire, short hot fires or medium cruisers? A low fire on the stove could be 400F stove top, though that is not as hot as it sounds because much of that heat is soaked up by the cast iron jacket. The residual heat can go on for hours due to the mass of the stove. In behavior the Alderleas are somewhat like soapstone stoves in this regard. But on the opposite spectrum you can take it up hotter on the stove top when necessary.



I wasn't trying to define it just looking for what your stove in your enviornement does on it's "low" air setting with a full load since it will vary from stove to stove.  My Lopi with a full load was like a rocket ship up and then down.  I wish  that stove could've been loaded full, dialed in to the low air setting burned with a 300-400 stove top while burning clean.


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## mellow (Jun 20, 2012)

If anything I feel like I have my old pre-epa stove back again except this time I can smoulder the wood and still burn clean.   That is a "low" burn for me.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 20, 2012)

Joful said:


> So it seems non-cats are not a viable solution for those out of the house for 8 - 10 hours a day, and not wanting to wake up in the middle of the night to reload every couple hours.


 
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. A large, non-cat stove will burn for 8-14 hours depending upon the size of the stove and your heating expectations. The 30NC and Pacific Energy Summit and T6 will burn for 8-12 hours on a full load. The Jotul F600 will burn for 8-12 hours. Any 3 cu ft+ fire box will produce heat for 9 hours or more.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.  A large, non-cat stove will burn for 8-14 hours depending upon the size of the stove and your heating expectations. The 30NC and Pacific Energy Summit and T6 will burn for 8-12 hours on a full load. The Jotul F600 will burn for 8-12 hours. Any 3 cu ft+ fire box will produce heat for 9 hours or more.


 
You're right, I may have generalized a little too much in my statement.  Just meant that if I want to avoid the rollercoaster effect of the non-cats, and maintain room temps in the low/mid 60's around the clock, I'd likely be better off with a cat stove.  I think the fact that I'm heating a larger space from a smaller space compounds the advantage of the cat, as I am really only looking at stoves around 2 cu.ft.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 20, 2012)

Joful said:


> Just meant that if I want to avoid the rollercoaster effect of the non-cats,


 
With most modern, well insulated home fitted with a size appropriate stove in a central location the 'roller coaster' effect is not as big of an issue due to the heat retention of the homes.



> and maintain room temps in the low/mid 60's around the clock


 
I ain't happy unless it's 75-80 degrees in this house during the winter.




> I'd likely be better off with a cat stove. I think the fact that I'm heating a larger space from a smaller space compounds the advantage of the cat, as I am really only looking at stoves around 2 cu.ft.


 
You would be better off with a cat stove for the following reasons:

You will be running multiple stoves and a cat stove allows you to oversize without over heating the house. Which is important.
Since you are oversizing a bit, the cat stove will give you longer burns since you can fill it up and burn at a lower temp. Again, important when running more than one stove.
You are in an older house and it will never be as efficient as a new house, which means heat retention is not as good. Longer burn times of steady heat help prevent dips in temp. As oppose to a newer home that will hold onto the heat much longer. Again, this is important.
If you were running one stove that heated your entire home well, either type of stove works just fine. Personal preference is the deciding factor when it comes to which technology you want to use.


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## Todd (Jun 20, 2012)

Joful said:


> Thanks, guys! I've been slow on coming around to Woodstock, primarily because we preferred the cosmetics of cast iron, and the (slightly) faster response times when lighting a cold stove. But, it really does seem all indicators are pointing us that way. I will have to take a closer look at their clearances, and see how their stoves will work in our setting.
> 
> Speaking of which, I got my gas insert removed last night, and finally crawled into this cavernous fireplace for the first time.  I found some very interesting stuff, which will have to be the subject of another thread some time soon.



I'd say at least half of the Woodstock Keystones is made with cast iron. The whole front, most of the back, inside guts and framing that holds it all together is cast. You get the best of both worlds with the cast and stone. You also get amazing heat output control with the cat, you can also burn low and slow like a cat or hot like a non cat.


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## Highbeam (Jun 20, 2012)

The good news is that you have a cavernous fireplace. Rear clearance requirements on the really small WS stoves are very large.


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2012)

Is the rear clearance relevant for a fireplace installation? Clearance to the surrounding woodwork and mantel would be my concern.


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. A large, non-cat stove will burn for 8-14 hours depending upon the size of the stove and your heating expectations. The 30NC and Pacific Energy Summit and T6 will burn for 8-12 hours on a full load. The Jotul F600 will burn for 8-12 hours. Any 3 cu ft+ fire box will produce heat for 9 hours or more.


 
A mid-sized 2 cu ft PE stove will also burn for that long. Our next door neighbor tells me he has had good coals well after 10 hrs and that is with soft maple. Tom Oyen reports that this model has the longest burn time of any stove he's tested in the store (no cats tested to my knowledge). I think he said they got 16 hrs on one burn. Not sure how exactly they tested but I presume that meant there were enough coals after that period for a restart.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 20, 2012)

begreen said:


> A mid-sized 2 cu ft PE stove will also burn for that long. Our next door neighbor tells me he has had good coals well after 10 hrs and that is with soft maple. Tom Oyen reports that this model has the longest burn time of any stove he's tested in the store (no cats tested to my knowledge). I think he said they got 16 hrs on one burn. Not sure how exactly they tested but I presume that meant there were enough coals after that period for a restart.


 

I know. And if I could find a used T6 I would probably have two by now.


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## Ashful (Jun 20, 2012)

Begreen, are you saying that a T5 can do the same job as a cat stove, in providing long, even, low, clean burns?


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2012)

When it's cold out yes. The cast iron jacket acts like a flywheel, similar to soapstone. It soaks up the heat making it softer, less radiant. Then it releases that heat gently when the fire is dying down. That makes it more comfortable in a smaller area because the temperature swings are less dramatic.

It would be interesting to try it in comparison to a cat stove. I suspect the cat stove would have some advantage when it's mild outside. It should have a cleaner low fire burn. In this case we just burn smaller hot fires, then let the stove go out. But once it gets colder out and the stove is not burning at its lowest setting, I don't think there is much difference. That doesn't mean it's a better stove than the Keystone, just different. Each stove has its strengths. In this case I would say the T5 is easier to run and less particular, but requires smaller loads when it's 50F outside. The bottom line is that satisfying results are often more dependent on the person running the stove than the stove itself. I think both stoves are winners.

FWIW, a buddy had an Intrepid II cat which he liked, but wasn't getting long enough burns in the colder weather. I sent him up to Bellingham and Tom sold him a T5. He was a very happy camper after that.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 20, 2012)

begreen said:


> FWIW, a buddy had an Intrepid II cat which he liked, but wasn't getting long enough burns in the colder weather. I sent him up to Bellingham and Tom sold him a T5. He was a very happy camper after that.


 

Keep in mind, the Intrepid is a VERY small stove. It is smaller than the T4 (1.3 cu ft vs 1.41 cu ft).

Still, it has crappy burn times for a cat stove, which says more about VC than anything.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 20, 2012)

begreen said:


> *Is the rear clearance relevant for a fireplace installation?* Clearance to the surrounding woodwork and mantel would be my concern.


 
Nope.


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## Highbeam (Jun 21, 2012)

begreen said:


> Is the rear clearance relevant for a fireplace installation? Clearance to the surrounding woodwork and mantel would be my concern.


 
Nope, and that's the point. Without the fireplace he would have to respect those huge rear clearance requirements that WS is famous for.


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## Ashful (Jun 21, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> Nope, and that's the point. Without the fireplace he would have to respect those huge rear clearance requirements that WS is famous for.


 
I smile everytime I tell one my _small _fireplace has a 56" wide x 62" high opening. We could host a small dinner party in the big one.


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## fire_man (Jun 21, 2012)

Joful said:


> Thanks, guys! I've been slow on coming around to Woodstock, primarily because *we preferred the cosmetics of cast iron, and the (slightly) faster response times when lighting a cold stove*. But, it really does seem all indicators are pointing us that way. I will have to take a closer look at their clearances, and see how their stoves will work in our setting.


 
I have noticed a HUGE improvement in how long it takes the Progress to get hot compared with the Fireview. The Progress has a steel fire chamber in direct contact with soapstone panels. The Fireview has 2 layers of soapstone separated by a thin air space. Much faster warm up times on the Progess.


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## Ashful (Jun 21, 2012)

I've been looking at the Woodstock stoves, and it seems the three models people are recommending (Progress, Keystone, Fireview) are all side load only. Is this correct? Also seems the one that's the appropriate size for my space, the Fireview, is rear flue only.

Here's a crazy quesiton... what about the VC Encore?


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## kingquad (Jun 22, 2012)

Joful said:


> I've been looking at the Woodstock stoves, and it seems the three models people are recommending (Progress, Keystone, Fireview) are all side load only. Is this correct? Also seems the one that's the appropriate size for my space, the Fireview, is rear flue only.
> 
> Here's a crazy quesiton... what about the VC Encore?


Good thread about the VC 2n1
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vermont-castings-encore-2-in-1.60640/

Have you looked at the medium dutchwest? I hated the looks of it on the internet, but when I saw it in person I really liked it.  It's a little more proven than the 2n1's too.


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## Ashful (Jun 22, 2012)

kingquad said:


> Good thread about the VC 2n1
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vermont-castings-encore-2-in-1.60640/
> 
> Have you looked at the medium dutchwest? I hated the looks of it on the internet, but when I saw it in person I really liked it. It's a little more proven than the 2n1's too.


 
Thanks!  Looks like an 8 page thread!  Should be keep out of trouble for a while.

I had not previously seen the Dutchwest, but I'm looking at it now.  I'll dig into it some over the weekend.

Found an interesting quote from the VC Encore manual:

"Avoid using a full load of very dry wood in the firebox. This may result in continuous very high temperatures in the secondary combustion area and damage the combustor. Wood which has been split, and stored under cover for more than 18 months may be considered very dry. If you must burn extra-dry wood, mix it with greener wood for a longer fire and less stress on the combustor."

Looks like I might have a problem with the hearth insulation requirements on the VC 2n1 stoves, but will keep looking into it.

Can anyone confirm that the Woodstock Fireview and Progress are side-load only? Looks to me like their ash pans can also only come out the side.


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## begreen (Jun 22, 2012)

Extra dry wood can be loosely interpreted as construction scraps. I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you are baking the firewood in a kiln.


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## Todd (Jun 22, 2012)

Joful said:


> Thanks!  Looks like an 8 page thread!  Should be keep out of trouble for a while.
> 
> I had not previously seen the Dutchwest, but I'm looking at it now.  I'll dig into it some over the weekend.
> 
> ...



You are correct on the Woodstock stoves being side loaders. I like the side loading doors except they may be a little bit on the small side which keeps you from loading those really big ugly splits that you run into from time to time. One advantage of the side only loading door is the reduced front clearances for your hearth. 

I like the looks of the VC's but with comments like the one above with 18 month old wood I'd stay away. I think those secondary rear cat chambers are poorly designed and get too hot. The cat stoves that have the cat in the top of the stove and baffle to protect it seem to be better.


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## kingquad (Jun 22, 2012)

Joful,
There have been a lot of happy Dutchwest users around here.  The problem with these cast stoves is that they appear to be better top/side loaders than front loaders.  They all have arched doors.  They look great though.

If you read the entire VC thread(I did), it seems like they are trying to right the ship. I hope they succeed. They are a part of American history.

As far as having wood that is too dry, it almost never happens. If you know your wood is dry, then you need to watch your stove temps closely and engage the cat/shut the air down at the appropriate times. I don't think I would own a cat stove that didn't have a probe. Overfire seems to be more of an issue with non cats than cats.


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## BKVP (Jun 26, 2012)

Blaze King defines burn time as when the catalyst becomes active until it is no longer active.  That generally is considered to be 550 degrees F.  Our new Sirocco stove is selling quite well to those that appreciate the apprearance of the more popular look in wood stoves.  Wait until you see what we have for the cast stove lovers this Fall! (No I will not have any photos) But it is based on the larger firebox of our Chinook 30. 

As for retail price issues, solved.  The posted retail price is now the same across the USA.  We have added several industry leading sales reps and distributors.  New dealers are taking on the line each and every day, so they should be readily available to shoppers.

As for efficiencies, the EPA has alerted industry that they would prefer a HHV % of at least 70%.  All our our current and future catalytic models will vastly exceed this requirement.  We'll have to work on the non cat models a little to fine tune them if this becomes the new requirement.

Thank you.....

Chris


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## Highbeam (Jun 26, 2012)

BKVP said:


> The posted retail price is now the same across the USA.
> Thank you.....
> 
> Chris


 
Is this going to be like weber BBQs where the retailers are forced to sell for your MSRP? Where are the prices posted?

Looking forward to your cast stove.


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## Ashful (Jun 26, 2012)

BKVP said:


> Wait until you see what we have for the cast stove lovers this Fall! (No I will not have any photos) But it is based on the larger firebox of our Chinook 30.


 
If you can get some photos and clearance spec's in the next few weeks, I might be your first buyer. How soon do you expect to start taking pre-orders for the new model? Would hate to miss out on the awaited marriage of good looks and BK's performance due to a few weeks or months timing.


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## Todd (Jun 26, 2012)

All these new stoves coming out sure gives an addict like me the itch, wish I could try them all.


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## Highbeam (Jun 26, 2012)

Todd said:


> All these new stoves coming out sure gives an addict like me the itch, wish I could try them all.


 
You can try my heritage and I'll try one of your keystones! Meet you in Montana? Not sure of the market value for each but I've also got the itch.

The 30 series BK box looks to be superior to the princess. Sorta like the PE stoves, they just dress them up in different outer skins.


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## Todd (Jun 26, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> You can try my heritage and I'll try one of your keystones! Meet you in Montana? Not sure of the market value for each but I've also got the itch.
> 
> The 30 series BK box looks to be superior to the princess. Sorta like the PE stoves, they just dress them up in different outer skins.



Sorry I've already burned a Hearthstone and it didn't impress. Lol


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## Highbeam (Jun 26, 2012)

Todd said:


> Sorry I've already burned a Hearthstone and it didn't impress. Lol


 
That one didn't have a side door though. An inferior model. Oh well, worth a try.


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## jeff_t (Jun 26, 2012)

BKVP said:


> Blaze King defines burn time as when the catalyst becomes active until it is no longer active.  That generally is considered to be 550 degrees F.  Our new Sirocco stove is selling quite well to those that appreciate the apprearance of the more popular look in wood stoves.  Wait until you see what we have for the cast stove lovers this Fall! (No I will not have any photos) But it is based on the larger firebox of our Chinook 30.
> 
> As for retail price issues, solved.  The posted retail price is now the same across the USA.  We have added several industry leading sales reps and distributors.  New dealers are taking on the line each and every day, so they should be readily available to shoppers.
> 
> ...



Sure hope you aren't teasing. I'm not shopping, but my sister will be. She really likes the performance of my stove, and is tolerant of the looks. It is more stove than she needs, so a 3 cu ft stove that looks a little nicer would be great. Any info ASAP would be outstanding. Would it be safe to assume clearances won't be any greater than your similarly sized stoves?


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## Ashful (Jun 27, 2012)

Spoke with a tech at Jotul factory today about the jamming air control lever on my Firelight 12, and had the opportunity to ask him whether Jotul had any plans to reintroduce any catalytic stoves.  He told me they're waiting to see what the EPA does, for if they go to a 4 gram limit (as he suspects they may), Jotul will be forced to convert most/all of their stoves back to catalytic designs.  However, if they keep the limits at the present levels, they intend to stick with all non-catalytic stoves.


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## Highbeam (Jun 27, 2012)

Joful said:


> Spoke with a tech at Jotul factory today about the jamming air control lever on my Firelight 12, and had the opportunity to ask him whether Jotul had any plans to reintroduce any catalytic stoves. He told me they're waiting to see what the EPA does, for if they go to a 4 gram limit (as he suspects they may), Jotul will be forced to convert most/all of their stoves back to catalytic designs. However, if they keep the limits at the present levels, they intend to stick with all non-catalytic stoves.


 
I wonder why? I know that "same is safe/different is dangerous" but the guy must surely have a better reason that just that?


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## Todd (Jun 27, 2012)

Lol, those damn dirty burning jotuls need to go! Does it really make that much of a difference pollution wise whether a stove burns at 1 GPH or 7 GPH? The EPA would be better off leaving the standards as is and put more time and effort into educating the public in proper wood burning practices.


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## Ashful (Jun 27, 2012)

EPA aside, I wish Jotul would offer both technologies in their stoves.  This tech explained why the dropped the cat's in favor of the non-cat technology, which is all the reasons we've discussed before, primarily the service headaches generated for the manufacturer, by putting cat stoves into the hands of an uneducated public.  Then he agreed that cat stoves are likely a preferred option those wanting to heat around the clock with their stove, and were willing to maintain a cat.  I wanted to ask why they can't offer both options, but was interrupted, and had to cut the conversation short.  The answer may be as simple as not wanting to spread their resources too thin, supporting too many different models, with low sales volumes.


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## BrowningBAR (Jun 27, 2012)

Joful said:


> EPA aside, I wish Jotul would offer both technologies in their stoves. This tech explained why the dropped the cat's in favor of the non-cat technology, which is all the reasons we've discussed before, primarily the service headaches generated for the manufacturer, by putting cat stoves into the hands of an uneducated public. Then he agreed that cat stoves are likely a preferred option those wanting to heat around the clock with their stove, and were willing to maintain a cat. I wanted to ask why they can't offer both options, but was interrupted, and had to cut the conversation short. The answer may be as simple as not wanting to spread their resources too thin, supporting too many different models, with low sales volumes.


 

It's also expensive getting that many models tested and approved.


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2012)

The answer may be that Jotul subscribes to the KISS principal. It keeps stoves reliable, simple and with lower maintenance. I can't argue with that philosophy.


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## Sprinter (Jul 4, 2012)

rdust said:


> Haven't seen one of these for a "little" while.
> 
> I've had both and currently have a cat stove. In short the cat stove fits my lifestyle best currently. Long, low, slow and clean burns. If I was retired and home all day to feed a stove a non cat would still be on the hearth since the view of the fire is hard to beat. This cat stove when burning in the shoulder season is nothing short of amazing, fill it full every time, turn it down low, let it burn for 24 hours and never over heat the house.


Well, I am retired, and I will be home most of the time to tend a stove, and around here the shoulder seasons go on and on and on. Are you saying that if you can tend a stove regularly, that a cat has less of an advantage? I don't mind fooling with the stove but I imagine that even regulation would be very important to overall efficiency as well as comfort, so I'm trying to figure out if it is possible to regulate a non-cat as well as a cat. Say, with a high mass stove.
Also, how is the view of a non-can nicer? Part of what we're after is the ambiance.


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## rdust (Jul 4, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> Are you saying that if you can tend a stove regularly, that a cat has less of an advantage?


 
I wouldn't say less of an advantage just less important if you can add wood as needed during the day.



Sprinter said:


> Also, how is the view of a non-can nicer?


 
My non cat the fire was more dynamic/lively, almost fake looking but nice to watch. With my BK once I dial it down it'll be a dark firebox with some occasional flare ups of flames(not much to look at). I know some of the other stoves like the woodstock stoves are reported to still have a nice fire until they're dialed down really low. With one of their stoves you could get a stove with some nice mass good burn times and nice looks.(if you like stone)


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## Sprinter (Jul 5, 2012)

rdust said:


> I wouldn't say less of an advantage just less important if you can add wood as needed during the day.
> 
> 
> 
> My non cat the fire was more dynamic/lively, almost fake looking but nice to watch. With my BK once I dial it down it'll be a dark firebox with some occasional flare ups of flames(not much to look at). I know some of the other stoves like the woodstock stoves are reported to still have a nice fire until they're dialed down really low. With one of their stoves you could get a stove with some nice mass good burn times and nice looks.(if you like stone)


Well, that would be an important aspect for us, since seeing the fire is part of the experience. I'd love to have the cat's qualities for shoulder season burning, which is maybe 50% of the whole season, but especially considering the lack of cat models to choose from, I think I'm inclined to find a heavy non-cat. Does anyone have another take on the fires' visual quality in the cat vs non-cat discussion?


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## Armoured (Jul 5, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> Well, that would be an important aspect for us, since seeing the fire is part of the experience. I'd love to have the cat's qualities for shoulder season burning, which is maybe 50% of the whole season, but especially considering the lack of cat models to choose from, I think I'm inclined to find a heavy non-cat. Does anyone have another take on the fires' visual quality in the cat vs non-cat discussion?


 
Note the comments were all that the fire was less lively _once the air was dialled down_. So don't dial it down when you want more of the visual aspect - or dial it down to where you have the right balance.

When you've finished watching caveman TV, dial it down and go to bed. Best of both.

If you really want both, look at the Progress Hybrid - secondary burn tubes for the northern lights experience, plus the cat.


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## BKVP (Jul 5, 2012)

Good morning all!

Just a little history. Way back in 1983, Blaze King made a stove that was both catalytic and also had secondary heat/air tubes. Some companies are now making this design and calling them a hybrid. In 1984, Blaze King received the very first certificate for a clean burning wood stove, the KEJ1101 at under 2.0 gr/hr. This was through the Oregon Department of Environmental Quality, the foundation of the current EPA program.

In 1988, for Phase I of EPA requirements, when so many manufacturers tested their products without combustors and failed, the silver bullet was to place a combustor in or near the flue collar. These horizontally positioned, draft sensitive designs were actually not designs but after thoughts.

If someone designs a catalytic wood stove from the ground up, from day one building that design around the fact a combustor will be used, really perfected designs can be achieved. "Adding" combustors back to stoves will only result in problems for all parties and savvy shoppers should look carefully to make certain the design is all new. It is a very costly proposition for manufacturers, that is starting from square one on a whole new design.

The CHC (catalytic hearth coalition) is a group of suppliers and manufacturers that work together to make certain solid, dependable and long lasting products using catalytic combustors are available. You can google the CHC and read about studies and where we are headed. The good news, some larger manufacturers are joing the CHC and benefiting from the meetings and discussions we have about the technology.

As for my earlier post, no I am not teasing. We do have in the works a cast iron wood stove, scheduled for late 2012 introduction. "Scheduled" is the operative word. We have the firebox complete, so it comes down to design and castings at this point. More details will get posted as we move forward.

Now all of you should stop posting for 24 hours and go cut some wood! And while you're at it, cut some extra wood and donate it the little old lady down the street!

Take Care,
Chris


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