# How to seal a leaky shower floor drain?



## Mo Heat

Well, stuff continues to fail in my house at a break-neck pace.

A few days ago I noticed water dripping from the ceiling in the downstairs bathroom. Actually coming out of the A/C register. After thinking I fixed it by caulking a bad seam in the shower area, I let the Mrs. take one of those really long showers and "Oh my gosh", water was everywhere. Worse than before.

Current diagnosis: leaky shower floor drain.

I've got it apart. It screws off after getting the grate removed. There seems to be a rubber o-ring that takes care of the main business, and some plumber's putty that looks unnecessary in this drain due to the funnel shape of the fiberglass shower floor.

I'm thinking maybe the screw part just came loose after 20 years, allowing the o-ring seal to loosen and leak, and all I might need to do is tighten it again, but I'm a bit afraid to turn Mrs. Mo loose in there again for a repeat performance.

Questions:

Ever fix one of these yourself? (A "Yes" qualifies you to answer the remaining questions.)

Do you think tightening, or replacing the o-ring, will fix things?

Can you buy replacement o-rings for those drains at the hardware store?

Should I just put some silicone or some other type sealing on the o-ring, or in place of the o-ring, and retighten things?


----------



## GVA

Its a plastic drain with a metal snap in cover correct?
Replace it.... about 10 bucks at hopeless depot.
They do crack, rubber gaskets dry rot etc... (maybe drano causes this)
Roll some plumbers putty and put it on the new flange before pressing into the shower floor.
Gotta keep the Mrs. happy ;-)


----------



## Mo Heat

GVA said:
			
		

> Its a plastic drain with a metal snap in cover correct?
> Replace it.... about 10 bucks at hopeless depot.



It's plastic, but the metal grate/cover actually "screws" into two "bosses" in the removable plastic piece, which in turn screws into the non-removable plastic piece that is PVC cemented to the actual drain pipe (see: photo below).


> They do crack, rubber gaskets dry rot etc... (maybe drano causes this)
> Roll some plumbers putty and put it on the new flange before pressing into the shower floor.
> Gotta keep the Mrs. happy ;-)



After reviewing the photo, is your advice the same? That is, buy a new drain piece (the screw-in part, I'm assuming, that comes with a new rubber gasket, I'm further assuming) and reassemble?

It looks to me like the only thing that would actually benefit from being "new" is that rubber gasket/O-ring that I think you can see, in the photo, where the bottom of the shower floor's funnel/water-exit meets that rubber gasket, and where there rubber gasket meets the drain pipe immediately below it. That's why I was asking about replacing only the gasket.

Thanks for the reply BTW. This shower is still down for the count and "people" are getting a little more irritable each morning marching up and down the stairs.  :shut:

After looking at that photo a few times, I'm thinking about getting a tetanus shot.  :gulp:


----------



## GVA

Yeah I'd probably still replace the whole thing and re-cement a small chunk of pipe in there.
There's alot of putty in there where it shouldn't be and could take a while to clean, (gotta love previous owners) :shut: 
If you want you could buy the drain assy and use the new gasket and see if it leaks.  But if you have access to the bottom I's easier to replace the whole thing...
In case you were wondering they aren't in the plumbing section at HD they are over in the shower/tub displays.


----------



## Mo Heat

Perhaps the most unfortunate part is that I DO NOT have access from the bottom of the drain. I only have access to the top. The photo shows all that I will ever see.

It looks like the pipe is cemented in there well, though. I doubt that the down pipe cement to the lower drain part is what is leaking. But since I think that, it probably will wind up being the real problem.  :shut: 

But it looks like it might be worth a try getting a new drain with the rubber washer/O-ring and seeing if that fixes it.

One question: What, if anything, might I put on the O-ring to "assist" it in making the best possible seal?

...and thanks for the heads-up on the drain location at Home Labyrinth.


----------



## HarryBack

that to me, Mo, doesnt look like an o-ring....looks more like a flat rubber gasket, which when the removeable threaded portion up top is screwed into the female portin, it sucks the lower pipe a smidge and creates (hopefully), a seal. The only place upon the reinstall Id put plumbers putty is under the flared portion of the male connector, NOT on the threads....clogging the threads up could likely cause an incomplete union and the gasket leaking.....its the gasket here thats doing most of the sealing. Id also look for a slow drain as well....see if the water isnt pooling on the shower floor and in the drain due to a partial clog, etc....might put undue water contact on that joint as well.

Oh, and like GVA says, make sure you roll a bead of plumbers putty under the flange...warm it up, roll it like play-doh, and form it around.


----------



## Mo Heat

Excellent input HB.

The drain isn't slow. No standing water or even any minor pooling with unrestricted shower head flow.

There is lots of putty in there, with quite a bit on the threads, so that may have contributed to insufficient tightness of the union and thus pressure on that sealing gasket. 

I also have a tendency to stand on the drain for good footing when propping one foot up on the ledge during my clean routine. I won't be doing that anymore since I probably ratcheted the drain basket loose over the last 7 years, a little at a time.

I might be able to just re-tighten things, but it seems like a good idea to change that rubber gasket, if I can find one. I think it's about 18 or 19 years old at this point.

I think my only remaining question before I buy the gasket, and re-assemble, is whether or not to put a little silicone on the gasket before installing, along with the plumber's putty under the basket flange (thanks for the warming and application tip BTW). Would silicone on that sealing gasket do any good, or just be a nightmare to remove should this repair attempt prove unsuccessful?


----------



## Gooserider

Since the underside isn't accessible normally (I'd assume you could cut a hole in the lower ceiling if desperate?) I see no harm in trying to replace the gasket and screw it back down.  If lucky, you get more time out of it, if not you will be no worse off than you were before...

I'd clean the threads out as best you can, replace the gasket, possibly putting some plumbers paste on it, but probably not silicone, and the putty under the flange like BG suggested.  Might be worth going to a plumbing supply house rather than Home Despot for the parts as they may be able to supply a better match, and possibly reccomend a better solution.

Gooserider


----------



## HarryBack

yea, nix the silicone idea, as the bond will likely break anyhow with folks stepping on the drain inadvetently.


----------



## velvetfoot

In my last project it was weird how the product info on the plumbers putty says don't use on marble and I think plastic because of stain potential.


----------



## begreen

Not BG's suggestion, this is my first post on this thread. 

Hmm. I'm going to guess that this has leaked before. That batch of plumbers putty could be an indication of this. If it is going to leak, it's most likely at the flange on the underside where the edge of the gasket is showing. There should be a collar nut there that tightens the assembly to the shower pan. Sorry, but if this is the case, then the right fix is to open up the ceiling below and address it from that side. Given, the reluctance to do this, on to option #2. 

But I need more info. Mo, is the shower slow to drain? If that shower pan gasket is leaking (not the top screen gasket), it could be because water is backing up in the pipe. If this is the case, the most likely problem is a clogged trap. Have you tried a snake to see if the shower trap is full of hair?

You could test for this. Pour a bucket of water down the pipe while it is disassembled. If it doesn't drain fast, run a snake to clean out the trap. If it does drain well, stuff a rag - with a string attached! - into the drainpipe, but below that middle gasket. Pour some more water from the bucket and see if it leaks. Then use that string to pull out the rag. 

If the drain is clear, but that middle gasket leaks, then I wouldn't use plumbers putty. Instead, I'd clean everything very well, use a scouring pad and get it really clean inside there. Use a toothbrush on the pipe threads on both the male and female sides of the drain screen neck. Then dry off thoroughly and lay a bead of silicone over the edge of that middle gasket and then on the pipe threads of the upper drain screen collar and the rim where the uppermost gasket seats. Assemble while the silicone is fresh, let it set for a day and hope for the best.


----------



## keyman512us

Mo...HOLD THE PHONE

Even though I'm an electrician by trade...I might as well be a plumber too after filling in some time working for a friend...who is a plumber. 

First off...Here's the list of things you are going to need: A cheap pair of metal pliers, a phillips head screw driver, plumbers putty, and an SOS pad...either that or get some steel wool and SPIC & SPAN...bottom line...you gotta clean those surfaces up real good before you go any farther! Water has a funny way of going where it wants to...especially through un-prepared surfaces. 

"Knead" a small ball of plumbers putty (slightly larger than a golf ball size worth) until it is fairly pliable. Roll it out "like a piece of rope" until it is about six inches long...then press it into place on the round indent on the shower pan drain opening.

Apply some teflon tape or pipe dope...your choice...to the threads of the drain insert...then screw it into place by hand as far as you can.

Insert the tail ends of the cheap pair of pliers down into the drain...stick the screwdriver into the opening of pliers handles and tighten it until you can't tighten it NO' MORE (IN OTHER WORDS"fairly tight" no two foot long wrench required...it's a two piece dasanko for a shower...not a 4" steamer fitting..lol). As you do this...the putty will "start to roll out" from between the drain insert and the shower pan...this is a good indication of how good a seal you will get.

Forget the silicone, forget the new O-ring, yada-yada...just haul in there get your hands dirty...and "Git-R-Done'..."

The O-ring, for all intents and purposes is not there to provide a watertight seal...it is there to alighn the drain to the shower pan...and to provide a degree of stress and shock relief between the two parts.

Don't worry about the threads...just clean "the mating surfaces" real good...scratch off all that soap scum and give the putty something to stick to. Clean the insert real good too! Whatever you do...DO NOT USE ANY SILICONE! If you do this simple repair right...it should last you 10+ years...if you "mickey mouse it" with silicone...you will be lucky to get a year or two tops!

On a scale of 1-10....1-easy 10 tough...this job rates slightly more than a 2 at best...you got good "fairly new plastic" all the way around...that ain't no 100 year old clawfoot tub built into a wall.. 

I always wondered "how these things worked"...after I put a dozen or so together...and got the verbal instruction from a good teacher...a real plumber...it all made sense.

...So take some advice...from someone that "learned the easy way".


----------



## begreen

I defer to Keyman's greater experience for reassembly. The last one I put together was in the 70's. 

But I still would want to know why it leaked, badly, before reassembling.


----------



## keyman512us

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I defer to Keyman's greater experience for reassembly. The last one I put together was in the 70's.
> 
> But I still would want to know why it leaked, badly, before reassembling.



BG...
....As to the "Why" I would say one of two things or both. First off...When It was originally installed it may not have been "tightened all the way home". Just like in "Disaster Anaylisis" there is a story, a chain of events that unfolds. Perhaps after the pressure test was completed and the plumber (or plumbers helper) was going around "tying in the drains"...while in the middle of tightening the drain...his attention gets' called away to something else...leaves the tools and 'helps' with something else...and forgets the drain is tightened down....he picks up the tools and walks away. It holds for years...until the second thing could have happened...the putty simply "dries out", cracks, and becomes brittle. The water slowly starts to trickle in between the two surfaces...and further erodes the integrity of the putty. If you really look close at the picture...you can see it happening. The soap in the water has left a film on the surface. Also of note...look at how "cracked" (what is left for putty) actually is. I'll "Bet a dime to a doughnut" when MO pulled that drain apart...that the putty broke off in tiny pieces and very little of it was sticking to the insert.

Bottom line...the putty was just 'gettin old'...time for some simple "maintainence" .

MO:


> After looking at that photo a few times, I’m thinking about getting a tetanus shot.



Yeah those drains do get rather nasty over the years...but it's not like that drain is in a commercial kitchen...or a truck stop shower. I wouldn't be too worried about it. Generally,  unless it has a small "micro colony" of green vegetation you might find growing on a larger scale in say...a swamp, there isn't too much to be worried about...lol


----------



## Mo Heat

I think I'm starting to "get it". At first, I thought the rubber gasket was doing all the work and that the plumbers putty really didn't even need to be in there. After reading keyman's instructions, it seems the reality may be 180 degrees. The putty actually can keep the water from ever reaching that gasket. At least, that's how all those words and pictures have branded the synapses in my brain.

I actually just got back from a plumbing parts supply house. Man, they sure aren't what I remember from my younger days when I'd wander into a bleak looking warehouse and some old gnarly, ex-plumber who was so old and whose knees were so bad he had to give up his trade. There were two young whipper snappers in a make-shift faucet showroom that looked puzzled when I showed 'em my parts. Not a good sign. Anyway, they had no parts or advice for me so I took my leave.

There are a couple more around here, but they are quite a drive. I think I'll run down to Home Depravity and pick up some of that plumbers putty stuff, if I can find it, roll up my sleeves, and start cleaning things up, shiny new, and Bristol fashion.

I'll report back after the procedure is complete and I've had a couple cold ones.


----------



## GVA

Wow where did everyone come from?
I know what Key is talking about with the tightening but......  That drain does not have the cross in it does it?
That there drain is designed to be tightened from underneath.
It can be done though, either after the grate is attached the plier handles can go through the holes. or put the screws in and use the screwdriver  and wind it like a clock.
BUT This drain has been taken apart before and who knows what may have been done to it before.... (maybe cracked by a homeowner overtightening).

Key you can't say that the gasket doesn't do anything except relieve strain and shock and then say to put pipe dope and teflon tape on the threads, cause if the putty is doing it's job than the tape is not needed... correct?  I hate to nitpick here but i'm bored......

It is all relative in the end everything works together, and yes it's there for a reason even if it may be worse case scenario....  Like a plugged trap..

And yes MO stay away from silicone..


----------



## keyman512us

GVA said:
			
		

> Wow where did everyone come from?
> I know what Key is talking about with the tightening but......  That drain does not have the cross in it does it?
> That there drain is designed to be tightened from underneath.
> It can be done though, either after the grate is attached the plier handles can go through the holes. or put the screws in and use the screwdriver  and wind it like a clock.
> BUT This drain has been taken apart before and who knows what may have been done to it before.... (maybe cracked by a homeowner overtightening).
> 
> Key you can't say that the gasket doesn't do anything except relieve strain and shock and then say to put pipe dope and teflon tape on the threads, cause if the putty is doing it's job than the tape is not needed... correct?  I hate to nitpick here but i'm bored......
> 
> It is all relative in the end everything works together, and yes it's there for a reason even if it may be worse case scenario....  Like a plugged trap..
> 
> And yes MO stay away from silicone..



You're bored too GVA?? lol  Yup...take away things to burn and look what happens...lol. I think this could almost remotely fit under "The things you can do when the lights are off and the TV is busted..."...lol 

Well as far as the gasket..."if you think like a drop of water"...you always go with gravity...having said that the water rolls across the pan...down the "neck" of the insert and (hopefully) farther down the pipe. Eventually out of the house. The point is...in theory...no water should ever be anywhere close to being up against that round foam gasket...because if it were...it would have no way to "get into the pipe itself". 

As far as pipe dope or teflon tape...think of it's true purpose for a second. Keeping the fitting gas & water tight is a close second to keeping the threads "lubricated". 

Ever screw two plastic fittings together "dry"??? Pain in the a^s to get them apart after isn't it?

Try unscrewing a "dry" plug from a 'dandy' or an ECO in your DWV system...and see how much fun it really is... 

As any well educated...or 'old school' plumber will tell ya...just keep this in mind:
 "A plumber protects the health of the nation..."


----------



## begreen

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Well as far as the gasket..."if you think like a drop of water"...you always go with gravity...having said that the water rolls across the pan...down the "neck" of the insert and (hopefully) farther down the pipe. Eventually out of the house. The point is...in theory...no water should ever be anywhere close to being up against that round foam gasket...because if it were...it would have no way to "get into the pipe itself".



I agree with you Key WRT assembly. What has me concerned is whether this is the root of the problem. In order for a massive leakage as Mo reported, I am concerned that either there was a blockage in the trap and water backed up and fully immersed the pan gasket. If yes, then your suggestion, plus cleaning the trap should put an end to it.  Or (hopefully not) a joint downstream is poorly glued or not at all, in which case, there is still more to discover. Let's hope this is not the case and with the putty and a drain clean Mo can shower in peace and meditate on the movement of the earth.


----------



## keyman512us

BeGreen said:
			
		

> keyman512us said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well as far as the gasket..."if you think like a drop of water"...you always go with gravity...having said that the water rolls across the pan...down the "neck" of the insert and (hopefully) farther down the pipe. Eventually out of the house. The point is...in theory...no water should ever be anywhere close to being up against that round foam gasket...because if it were...it would have no way to "get into the pipe itself".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you Key WRT assembly. What has me concerned is whether this is the root of the problem. In order for a massive leakage as Mo reported, I am concerned that either there was a blockage in the trap and water backed up and fully immersed the pan gasket. If yes, then your suggestion, plus cleaning the trap should put an end to it.  Or (hopefully not) a joint downstream is poorly glued or not at all, in which case, there is still more to discover. Let's hope this is not the case and with the putty and a drain clean Mo can shower in peace and meditate on the movement of the earth.
Click to expand...


Well that is a good point BG...A "process of elimanation test" could be performed though. Take a garden house, stuff it down the neck of that drain, wrap a damp rag around the hose nice and tight and let er' rip. If 'Niagra Falls' isn't observed coming through the ceiling, vents, or dripping down the walls...it would confirm where the problem trully is!

The added benefit...would help to ensure the trap & drain line is good and clean too! 

"Dime to a doughnut though...my money is on the mating surfaces of the two piece drain."


----------



## Mo Heat

BG, There appears to be NO blockage of any type. That drain has never had any hint of such a problem. And the trap is holding water just fine. I can see it way down in there and it's been days since anything water has been run. It looks just like the day we stopped using it.

I'm convinced that I gradually unscrewed the top portion of the drain by standing on it fairly regularly (I won't be doing that anymore), beating up the plumber's putty, and ever so slowly unscrewing things until water started leaking out that little gasket area.

As far as how much water has been leaking, well, it's really not that bad, but I was pretty shocked to see any water in the lower bathroom on the counter top. It actually took me a while to figure out that it was DRIPPING SLOWLY from the A/C register screw. At first I thought someone might have spilled some water or something into one of the upstairs registers and it made it's way to that one somehow. But I eventually realized it was coming from the upstairs shower. Apparently it is dripping down onto the 6 inch diameter HVAC conduit (or whatever it's called--what the air blows through), running down hill to the register, and then dripping around the screw. The second day showed more water, but I'd estimate it was only a couple ounces at most. It was hard to tell how much since it was dripping and splashing. It probably looked like there was more there than there actually was. The fact that it never ran fast enough to escape the tensile (or whatever it's called that makes the water stick to the A/C conduit tube--what the air blows through) and so it has not yet got any of the drywall wet. That's the way I hope to keep it.

I'll get some plumber's putty tomorrow, clean things up, re-assemble and update you. I'm pretty sure this will fix things.


----------



## Hogwildz

I know this is a far stretch, but have you ruled out condensation from the a/c register?


----------



## Mo Heat

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> I know this is a far stretch, but have you ruled out condensation from the a/c register?



I can say with confidence that condensation isn't an issue. The A/C wasn't on when the leak happened and I only discovered later that the A/C hasn't worked at all this year. We had a really mild spring and haven't needed it until last week. Hopefully, the A/C man will be here next Monday.

I feel like the 19 year old plumber's putty, and what looked like some missing plumber's putty, is the culprit. I'm headed up there right now to see if I can fix it.

One interesting side note. When I went to pick up some plumber's putty, I happened to read the label and noticed it said explicitly that it is not to be used on plastic of marble parts. My parts are definitely plastic, so I bought the other product that was recommended right there on the label. It's called Tub and Tile siliconized acrylic caulk.

I've cleaned everything up, even wet sanded an injection seal on the plastic sealing surface, and am going to put it all back together now. Here's photos of dirty and clean.


----------



## Hogwildz

Where that purple ring in the center of the drain bottom is....is that the end of the pvc pipe coming into the drain?
I had recently had a similar problem where as the type of drain the previous home owner used was a drain with a rubber gasket base. That type there is a rubber several ringed gasket that the pvc pipe slips up into at the base of the drain. The problem I found, was that the previous hack home owner had the pipe running into the drain out on an angle instead of straight up in. He caulked the hell out of it, and it must have recently let loose. I hacked the pipe off, removed that drain. Installed a drain with a solid glue in connection and that fised the problem for me.

In my last house, I had yet another shower drain leak. That was a similar drain, but they ran the black pipe up into the drain base. The pipe was about 1/4" smaller all the way around. They then packed the gap between the pvc pipe & the pvc drain with lead LMAO. Don't take a rocket scientist to figure out lead don't stay adhered to pvc.
I about had it with shower drains. Although I know of 2 now that were done the correct way, and not leaking.

Good luck with your fix Mo. Hope that does it for ya. 

I'd have used silicone myself. But looks like you have the needed supplies.
Anymore I been using urethane caulk for alot of things. Stuff never hardens and sticks like crazy. Does take a few weeks to fully cure though.
Pumped a 1-1/4" hole in my basement wall with a solid stream of outside water pouring in with the urethane. Its stopped it dead,even in a stream of water. Some great caulk. Expensive, but worth it.


----------



## Mo Heat

Hogwildz, I pulled the support (rubber gasket) loose between the drain basket and the stand pipe, and the stand pipe stayed in place. It looks to be nice and perpendicular (from top side, I've got drywall below). That's the end of the PVC pipe you see, and that purple stuff looks to be pvc cement. I made an assumption that it is well bonded, but good god, if you've seen that kind of crap, who knows? Still, I'm crossing my fingers and going forward. If things don't stop leaking, I'll drop those assumptions and start cutting gypsum.

Man I hate plumbing! It looks so simple, and then, crappola, something leaks. Toilets are my favorite. I've got 5 here with in-laws that manage to clog at least one of them each and every visit. Funny, I never had a clogged toilet my entire life as a single guy. In fact, I never owned a plunger until I married Mrs. Mo Heat. Lucky? Perhaps, but I've suggested her family should travel with a turbo plunger. I even went to the mat with one of her nieces for using a coat hanger on a nasty clog that permanently disfigured one of my porcelain goddesses. She was actually shocked that I didn't keep a coat hanger handy near the toilet for what she consider "the inevitable". Give me strength!

Funny you should mention urethane caulk. I bought 3 tubes of it for my severely leaking bedroom bay windows. Haven't had a good rain to test them yet, but I think I need another tube for some spots I missed. I'm glad to hear it's good stuff. I thought as much, but you never know. It is expensive. Between 4 and 5 dollars a tube depending on the brand. Still, I bought it for the touted long lived flexibility, so if it works, it'll be better than rotting away another window sill (see: photo). Man, that basement leak sounds gnarly. I hope that urethane caulk holds up in there.


----------



## begreen

Good catch Mo. Plumber's putty contains fish oils which may slowly dissolve plastics when in direct contact. I too would have used silicone, but the tub and bath caulk may be ok.

PS: I think the purple stuff in the PVC pipe is the primer which was used before the glue. Is all of your drain pipe PVC? Usually it's black ABS for the drains around here.


----------



## velvetfoot

They say urethane caulk is good for concrete.  I should do the cracks in the basement for radon reasons, but haven't done it yet.  I already bought some for that and to stop some water coming in around the well pipe penetration.

Where I had read about the discoloration with plumbers putty and plastic and marble, was when I put in a marble tile floor a couple of months ago.  Then the ceiling below started sagging around 4:00 AM when we were trying to catch a plane.  It was actually the paint sagging, luckily.  I thought it was the toilet seal-I tried a new-fangled no-wax seal.  But nooooooooo.  I had put water in the tub before caulking the bottom-floor joint:  I read that somewhere.  Turns out there was a leak in the drain.  The shower valve is operated with a tilting lever that moves a cylinder within a pipe that blocks flow of water from the tub.  When there is water in the tub there is pressure in this pipe from the head of water in the tub.  Alas, there is also a slip-ring type compression joint (like you have under your typical sink) that is required to hold this pressure.  I've always thought those joints were kind of lame.  It just needed tightening.  Of course to get at it I had to remove the vanity that was on the wall in back of the shower/tub.  I planned to use that borescope I mentioned in another thread to look at it from below, but alas, I had messed up the cultured marble vanity top (subsequently replaced with granite) with a stain (and subsequent failed stain removal) so the thing had to come out anyway.  It was evident the joint had been leaking from the mineral stains.  I hardly ever take a bath so that's why it wasn't noticed earlier.

In re-reading this post, I seem to use the word "alas" a lot, alas.


----------



## begreen

Mo, you'll want to let that stuff set up very well. Unlike silicone sealant, it's water cleanup and dissolvable until it dries. I'm not sure how long that will take in concealed areas.


----------



## Mo Heat

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Mo, you'll want to let that stuff set up very well. Unlike silicone sealant, it's water cleanup and dissolvable until it dries. I'm not sure how long that will take in concealed areas.



Wow! You're right BG. I just looked on the tube and it requires 72 hours to cure! That's 3 days! My driveway that was resealed this morning will be ready in less time than that!

I guess this stuff must have some advantage over just using silicone or they wouldn't recommend it. Maybe it comes off easier than silicone after it's been in use for 15 years.


----------



## Gooserider

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Man I hate plumbing! It looks so simple, and then, crappola, something leaks. Toilets are my favorite. I've got 5 here with in-laws that manage to clog at least one of them each and every visit. Funny, I never had a clogged toilet my entire life as a single guy. In fact, I never owned a plunger until I married Mrs. Mo Heat. Lucky? Perhaps, but I've suggested her family should travel with a turbo plunger. I even went to the mat with one of her nieces for using a coat hanger on a nasty clog that permanently disfigured one of my porcelain goddesses. She was actually shocked that I didn't keep a coat hanger handy near the toilet for what she consider "the inevitable". Give me strength!



It's a female thing Mo...  %-P  The GF goes through more paper in one trip than I do in a week, and causes far more clogs.  I've worked in various other jobs where I had to play janitor as part of the job, and I had regular clogs in the ladies rooms, never one in the men's, etc.   (Not to mention about a 10-1 paper use ratio)   Not all the ladies fault, their plumbing isn't as neatly designed so they need more cleanup...   But it is a simple matter of big wads of paper being more likely to get stuck.  It's worse with the 1.5 gallon modern toilets, I fully sympathize with those criminal types that insist on smuggling in the contraband 5 gallon "real flush" toilets...

Gooserider


----------



## begreen

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mo, you'll want to let that stuff set up very well. Unlike silicone sealant, it's water cleanup and dissolvable until it dries. I'm not sure how long that will take in concealed areas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! You're right BG. I just looked on the tube and it requires 72 hours to cure! That's 3 days! My driveway that was resealed this morning will be ready in less time than that!
> 
> I guess this stuff must have some advantage over just using silicone or they wouldn't recommend it. Maybe it comes off easier than silicone after it's been in use for 15 years.
Click to expand...


It's advantages are: water cleanup, comes in white and colors, easy to work with, resist mildew. It's a good product, but not really the right product for the job. It's mean mostly for gap sealing where different surfaces meet. We used it at the bottom of painted base shoe and sink backsplashes. Silicone is somewhat denser, seals better, cures faster, long-lived and is non-soluble in water. 

Who recommended it?


----------



## Mo Heat

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Who recommended it?



Uhm... I read about it on the back of the plumber's putty cup.  :red: 

You've got me thinking I should go up there and unscrew that drain before that caulk sets up (haha, in the next couple days) and use some of the 5 or 8 tubes of silicone I have stashed in the basement. I love silicone.

I think I know why that drain eventually leaked the way it did. If everything seals back up the way it's supposed to, then I'll feel like my conclusion is accurate. 

The first time I put it back together, I put three small beads of the caulk on the bottom side of the part that screws down into the drain basket. I immediately noticed that caulk squished out of 3/4's of the ring, but not out of the remaining 1/4. And the drain was biased to one side to the point that I couldn't be sure there was caulk contact with the top of the sealing ring surface on that 1/4 portion without the squished caulk. 

I think there is a slight alignment problem with the stand pipe to the bottom of the shower drain hole. This is probably not uncommon since most all this stuff uses rigid tubing. And yes, all my PVC plumbing pipes are white. I have a whole lot of copper feeder tubes, but there's also quite a bit of white PVC for the sink, shower, tub, and toilet exit pipes. I even have a couple white pvc feeder lines that make quite a racket on the hot water side where they penetrate the sub floor during expansion and contraction. Spraying silcone lube on them helped a little, but they are still noisy.

After thinking about my completed drain project for a while, I unscrewed everything and put a whole bunch more caulk in there, including a bead on the bottom of the shower mating surface as well as the part that screws in. When I screwed this back together, I got caulk squishing out all around and felt more confident about the seal.

Now, maybe I should do it all again, using a healthy amount of silicone instead of this siliconized acrylic caulk stuff. Do you think it's worth doing over again with silicone, or would you leave it as it is, wait 72 hours, and see how it worked?


----------



## begreen

Mo, I don't have much experience with acrylic caulk off label use. Exposed to air, it does set up well, usually within a day. But in captive areas I'm not sure. I have used silicone for some odd plumbing problems and so far, I've never had a well done silicone job fail. Your call. Do you have another shower? Maybe you can just not use this one for a week to allow full curing?


----------



## Mo Heat

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Mo, I don't have much experience with acrylic caulk off label use. Exposed to air, it does set up well, usually within a day. But in captive areas I'm not sure. I have used silicone for some odd plumbing problems and so far, I've never had a well done silicone job fail. Your call. Do you have another shower? Maybe you can just not use this one for a week to allow full curing?



Yes, we have another shower so it's only a minor inconvenience letting it cure properly. My concern is that this stuff may be inferior in its ability to seal compared with silicone.

Have you ever tried DIS-assembling any of your silicone plumbing repairs? That stuff (silicone) can really stick to some things (and not much at all to other things) and I'm wondering if it would be a real bear to get off after a few years of drain duty.


----------



## Mo Heat

For now, I think I'll just let the current "Tub and Tile, siliconized acrylic caulk" cure and see how it works. If it leaks again, I'll break out the silicone.


----------



## keyman512us

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mo, I don't have much experience with acrylic caulk off label use. Exposed to air, it does set up well, usually within a day. But in captive areas I'm not sure. I have used silicone for some odd plumbing problems and so far, I've never had a well done silicone job fail. Your call. Do you have another shower? Maybe you can just not use this one for a week to allow full curing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we have another shower so it's only a minor inconvenience letting it cure properly. My concern is that this stuff may be inferior in its ability to seal compared with silicone.
> 
> Have you ever tried DIS-assembling any of your silicone plumbing repairs? That stuff (silicone) can really stick to some things (and not much at all to other things) and I'm wondering if it would be a real bear to get off after a few years of drain duty.
Click to expand...


Mo...
Glad to hear you are making progress on your dilema. Sounds like the next time around it is going to be a real bear if you need to do repairs. While you followed the manufacturers recomendations (which is 'always good'...) you "Kinda really didn't have to."

The generic "warning" from the plumbers' putty manufacturer was a "broad based CYA...on their part." It would have worked fine...but because some surfaces "might become discolored" they put that warning on their product to ward off "nuisance litigation". Necessary evil of todays' world unfortunately....good example perhaps, would be..your instalation for example. Was the area of the drain pan (in contact with plumbers putty) slightly a different shade or color???


----------



## Mo Heat

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Mo...
> Glad to hear you are making progress on your dilema. Sounds like the next time around it is going to be a real bear if you need to do repairs. While you followed the manufacturers recomendations (which is 'always good'...) you "Kinda really didn't have to."
> 
> The generic "warning" from the plumbers' putty manufacturer was a "broad based CYA...on their part." It would have worked fine...but because some surfaces "might become discolored" they put that warning on their product to ward off "nuisance litigation". Necessary evil of todays' world unfortunately....good example perhaps, would be..your instalation for example. Was the area of the drain pan (in contact with plumbers putty) slightly a different shade or color???



Doh! I think you are saying that the "siliconized acrylic caulk" I used is going to stick things together WAY more than plumber's putty. Is that what's you're saying? If so, should I run up there and wrench that thing apart before it makes a semi-permanent bond!?

BTW: thanks for shaking me out of my false sense of serenity.  :shut:


----------



## Mo Heat

keyman512us said:
			
		

> ..your instalation for example. Was the area of the drain pan (in contact with plumbers putty) slightly a different shade or color???



Uh, well... regarding discoloration...

I'd have to say it all just looked... 

DIRTY.  :sick:


----------



## begreen

Don't worry Mo, neither silicone nor the caulk you used are solvents for plastic. I've take apart silicone joints with relative ease.


----------



## kevinmoelk

Hummm.  So I read the entire 3 pages of posts on this thread, and I've nothing to add that hasn't been covered regarding the shower drain.  I am curious about the leak from the ceiling below.  Water damage is an awful thing.  How much water came down?  I'd be wondering if black mold were forming on the back side of the drywall.  If so, I'd suggest taking out the ceiling.  At the very least I'd make a little hole so you can stick a mirror into the ceiling to inspect for mold.  Don't know if you are sentitive to mold or not Mo.  Hope the drain fix works out.

-Kevin


----------



## Mo Heat

BG, Thanks for sharing your dis-assembly experience with silicone and siliconized acrylic caulk. I'll let it be. It should be ready for a test tomorrow morning. That will have given it over 72 hours to cure.



			
				wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> ...How much water came down?  I'd be wondering if black mold were forming on the back side of the drywall.  If so, I'd suggest taking out the ceiling.  At the very least I'd make a little hole so you can stick a mirror into the ceiling to inspect for mold.  Don't know if you are sentitive to mold or not Mo.
> 
> -Kevin



Kevin, I hope I'm not sensitive to mold. My bedroom seems to be full of it where the window sill rotted away over a few years (see: photo). 

I don't think much water from the shower drain actually contacted the drywall. It seems to have all adhered to the HVAC tunnel, followed it down to the register, and dripped out very slowly via a screw. Even if the drywall got wet, it was only subject to two short and what I believe were low volume water leak episodes, and I think it dried out pretty well and in short order. That's what I'm hoping anyway.

I had some pretty serious water damage about 6 years back when it rained between 12 and 13 inches in a 12 hour period. It was like Noah's flood and the roof showed it's lack of quality workmanship or age, not sure which. The roof was only about 11 or 12 years old... and I had only been living here ONE year! That was an expensive lesson in real estate house inspectors. I won't be asking a Realtor for such a referral in the future.


----------



## begreen

Mo, I'm sorry to see this. This house is showing a lot of shortcuts and poor workmanship. Have you addressed the cause of the sill rot? 
The issue will likely start at the top of the window with the flashing. Is this the only window acting up like this? Have you opened up the wall below the sill? I would, for the same concerns of mold development there. Even if you're not bothered by mold now, it can develop into a very severe allergy over time.


----------



## Mo Heat

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Mo, I'm sorry to see this. This house is showing a lot of shortcuts and poor workmanship. Have you addressed the cause of the sill rot?
> The issue will likely start at the top of the window with the flashing. Is this the only window acting up like this? Have you opened up the wall below the sill? I would, for the same concerns of mold development there. Even if you're not bothered by mold now, it can develop into a very severe allergy over time.



Hee, hee. If you're sorry to see it, think of how I feel.  :shut: This will likely be posted in a new thread as soon as I get some of my others fires put out. By then I may know if I've really stopped the leaking. If so, I may be soliciting advice on repairs, but I've got a pretty good idea what I can do, so I'll go ahead and summarize below, in case it's all moot later.

As I said, I believe I've addressed the source of the leak. I don't believe it is the flashing, although I've been wrong many times before, especially when it comes to crap I know so little about, but here's why I think I'm going to be ok.

This is a bay window that was re-shingled about 6 years ago. This stuff all started about 3 years ago when I had the house spray washed (grrrr) and stained. The workers blasted water through the cedar siding all over the place, staining the finished garage ceiling, getting water and wood fibers in between many of the combo metal and wood framed, non-sealed, double paned windows, and likely blasted loose some of the caulking seals with their high pressure hoses. They did re-caulk most everything that needed it, but I suspect they didn't quite caulk well enough around this bay window area. After getting all the bad wood out of there and looking at the construction details of the windows, I also noticed that the manufacturer may have missed a couple sealing locations where the metal parts meet the wooden parts and where water might find a way to infiltrate under the right circumstances.

This strange appearance of the paint on the window sill gradually progressed over those three years until I noticed that the paint went from looking slightly cracked and suspicious, but I was still not really understanding what was occurring, to WTF is going on with that freaking window sill! That's when I grabbed my testicles, slammed a cold one, pulled out the coping saw, hammer, and wood chisels, and things really got ugly.

Good lord, I couldn't believe what I found under that cracking, bubbling paint! The sill wood was like a sponge and carpenter ants were busy moving little egg looking thingies as I was spraying the hell out of them with Raid and decapitating them with wood chisels! I've got Amdro all over the place now and I can see the carpenter ants carrying it off to their buddies. They were in the house the first week after razing their nest, but I haven't seen one in a week or two at this point. The window wood is all nice and dry, so I think they've mostly died or sought out damper living quarters out in the yard.

Anyway, examining things closely, I've concluded that either the upper window frame caulk seal is leaking, or the mating surfaces between the metal and wood parts of the fabricated windows was leaking, or both. I sealed all the metal parts of the windows and am awaiting a big rain. A couple smaller rains looked good with no leakage that I could see. 

I'm still going to re-caulk the upper window where it meets the cedar siding. There are a couple suspect looking places right about where I think water may be infiltrating.

Because of the way the water seemed to follow the outer portion of the window sill and the cutout part of the house frame, I think all the water mostly ran down the inside of the cedar siding. That area is well ventilated and should have dried out pretty quickly after each rain. The house boards that made up the framed rectangle that the window was stuck into are in great shape. No rotting and no molding at all. After soaking the window sill, it looks like the water somehow followed a path that pretty much took it right back outside. No apparent damage to much of anything else that I can see. Of course I can't see everything, but I am extremely reluctant to start ripping out drywall when it looks like everything is ok in there.

Didn't mean to make this so long, but there it is. All suggestions welcome, but I'm hoping for a best case scenario with this issue.


----------



## begreen

I suspect that in part you are correct, but it sounds like surface caulking is being used to do what proper flashing and sequence of layers is meant to do. The window shouldn't have to rely on surface caulking to prevent this kind of problem. I can understand your reluctance to dig deeper, but repairing the sheetrock may be the easiest part of the job. Get someone who knows how to properly install and flash a window to take a look at this. My guess is that they are going to be as upset as you are. Gives the building trades a bad name when this kind of crap happens.

I'll wait for Sandor to pick up on this one, but it doesn't sound at all right to me.


----------



## Hogwildz

Those carpenter ants found or nawed their way in somehow. If the panes are not insulated between them, condensation will form inside and constantly run to the sill inside. I had similar problems in my old place. The seals on the double panes went to hell. Had a "ghosting in between the panes. In the winter especially, they would condensate real bad inside, and the sill was always wet. Caused the paint to crack & peel. Sounds like maybe time for a new bay window Mo. Are those windows single pane or double pane?

On your bathroom repairs. It doesn't take much for mold to grow on drywall paper. Especially in a ceiling that dark and closed off. I had that similar shower leak, and when I cut the drywall out, I had to keep cutting past the mold I found. But of course outa sight, outa mind can always trump all else.


----------



## Mo Heat

Leaky Shower Drain Update:

I took a shower this morning and the repaired drain showed no signs of leakage. We'll put it through a typical routine tomorrow, but I'm thinking the leak is fixed.

As far are mold on the dry wall goes, we only had two incidents on concurrent days, with very little water dripping through the HVAC register and no ceiling discoloration... and it's out of site... and for now, will remain out of mind. If I'm going to worry about that one little area then I should probably rip out all the dry wall in the entire house since we had some pretty serious leakage from the roof about 5 years ago that did some serious discoloration to the ceilings, which mostly have been re-taped, re-mudded, and sanded until I looked like the a ghost, and/or repainted, so I don't really want to open that can of worms. But I will keep it in mind.

Bay Window Update:

I took some shots of the Bay Window from the outside to give an idea of what I'm dealing with. While up on the big ladder taking pictures, I actually discovered some new spots of interest. I think I'll start a new thread with them. Hope to see you there.  :gulp:


----------



## begreen

Yea!!


----------



## Mo Heat

Day three and the drain leak seems to be a thing of the past. Thanks everyone, for all the help and suggestions. And for now, I'll assume there's no (or not much) mold between the floors.  :blank:


----------



## Hogwildz

Outa sight, outa mind  Besides, mold needs moister to thrive, if you stopped the moisture feeding the mold, then I would think it will dry & die.
Sounds like a good theory anyways


----------

