# Countertop Finishing Advice



## timfromohio (Nov 23, 2009)

So I FINALLY finished countertops for an island in the kitchen in a remodel that is well into  its 2nd year.  My wife wanted a dark wood and a sort of "table top" appearance - not butcher block.  I chose Black Walnut, purchased a bunch of rough cut lumber, planed/jointed it, used finger joints to edge-join short pieces to make long boards, edge-glued long boards together, installed breadboard ends with oak pins, and colored with mineral oil.  I orignally intended on using a wax-based, "food-safe" finish.  After several coats of wax and buffing it looked great, but the wax seemed to disappear after two days and then someone spilled a mug of hot tea on the countertop.  I will now need to re-sand and re-color a portion of the counter and want to re-finish it with something offering significantly more protection.  

I'm thinking of using a Cabot product I found at Lowes - a "spar varnish".  Anybody have experience with this?  Supposed to be very durable.  I've also thought of maybe a hardwood floor finish that's water based (less smell).  There are also pre-finish products to put on before any of these protective layers?  So many choices I'm not sure what to do.

Key requirements are (1) clear finish that doesn't change the look of the wood and (2) protection/durability.

Thanks for any input.  A couple of pics attached.


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## timfromohio (Nov 23, 2009)

PS - I don't care too much about "food-safe" rating.  We don't use the countertop as a cutting board and further research has shown that most of the finishes are fine once dry/cured.


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## Jack Straw (Nov 23, 2009)

I have no advice,
but it sure is nice


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## PapaDave (Nov 23, 2009)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> So I FINALLY finished countertops for an island in the kitchen in a remodel that is well into  its 2nd year.  My wife wanted a dark wood and a sort of "table top" appearance - not butcher block.  I chose Black Walnut, purchased a bunch of rough cut lumber, planed/jointed it, used finger joints to edge-join short pieces to make long boards, edge-glued long boards together, installed breadboard ends with oak pins, and colored with mineral oil.  I orignally intended on using a wax-based, "food-safe" finish.  After several coats of wax and buffing it looked great, but the wax seemed to disappear after two days and then someone spilled a mug of hot tea on the countertop.  I will now need to re-sand and re-color a portion of the counter and want to re-finish it with something offering significantly more protection.
> 
> I'm thinking of using a Cabot product I found at Lowes - a "spar varnish".  Anybody have experience with this?  Supposed to be very durable.  I've also thought of maybe a hardwood floor finish that's water based *(less smell)*.  There are also pre-finish products to put on before any of these protective layers?  So many choices I'm not sure what to do.
> 
> ...



Tim, 
Might be a tad expensive, but look at the "bartop" finishes if you haven't already. Supposed to be VERY durable. 
If you don't like that look, then try some danish oil.
Water based are also easier cleanup, and don't yellow. 
Yeah, LOTS of options. Good luck.


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## PapaDave (Nov 23, 2009)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> So I FINALLY finished countertops for an island in the kitchen in a remodel that is well into  its 2nd year.  My wife wanted a dark wood and a sort of "table top" appearance - not butcher block.  I chose Black Walnut, purchased a bunch of rough cut lumber, planed/jointed it, used finger joints to edge-join short pieces to make long boards, edge-glued long boards together, installed breadboard ends with oak pins, and colored with mineral oil.  I orignally intended on using a wax-based, "food-safe" finish.  After several coats of wax and buffing it looked great, but the wax seemed to disappear after two days and then someone spilled a mug of hot tea on the countertop.  I will now need to re-sand and re-color a portion of the counter and want to re-finish it with something offering significantly more protection.
> 
> I'm thinking of using a Cabot product I found at Lowes - a "spar varnish".  Anybody have experience with this?  Supposed to be very durable.  I've also thought of maybe a hardwood floor finish that's water based (less smell).  There are also pre-finish products to put on before any of these protective layers?  So many choices I'm not sure what to do.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah, nice counter. I like the exposed breadboard end and contrasting oak dowels (pins). How did you do such a deep tongue on that end? I have ideas, just looking at *your* solution.


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## johnn (Nov 23, 2009)

Try: www.triedandtruewoodfinishes.com

About half way down on the page: Tried and True Wood finishes


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## timfromohio (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks for all of the suggestions - I will check out the Danish oil and the Tried and True Wood finishes page.  

For the breadboard end (which is probably too wide, but only time will tell) I used a dado blade on the table saw to create the mortise and multiple passes with a handheld router to make the tennon.  Since the counter top was basically made before I could do the tennon, the router was pretty  much my only option.  I used a clamp on straight edge and proceeded very slowly ...  A good bit of sanding to get things to fit just right.  I suppose I could have used a circular saw and made multiple passes to depth and tried to clean it up with a chisel, but figured the router was the best way to go.


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## kenny chaos (Nov 24, 2009)

A south western pattern piece of linoleum might look nice. :gulp:


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## Gooserider (Nov 24, 2009)

Probably sacrilegious or something, but I like a good poly finish myself...  Spar varnish is good if you want to go traditional - the name comes from it's original use of finishing the woodwork including the spars on the old sailing ships...  However it does take a fair bit of upkeep.  A quality poly finish looks just as good, and holds up a whole lot better...

Gooserider


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## timfromohio (Nov 24, 2009)

Gooserider - is there a really big difference in the "smell" factor between the water-based poly and the oil-based?  Do you think that the water based would be as durable as the oil based?

Thanks.


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## Gooserider (Nov 24, 2009)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Gooserider - is there a really big difference in the "smell" factor between the water-based poly and the oil-based?  Do you think that the water based would be as durable as the oil based?
> 
> Thanks.



Haven't had all that much experience w/ the water based products, but the few times I've tried them, I was not at all impressed.  OTOH, I didn't think the smell from the oil based stuff is that bad, and neither has any smell once it's cured...  I figure a day or two of possibly stronger odors isn't that big a deal in the greater scheme of things...

Gooserider


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## fossil (Nov 24, 2009)

Minwax Polyurethane.  2 or 3 coats (sand lightly with ultra-fine paper between coats...let it dry thoroughly before sanding ~24 hrs).  I like the clear satin for most projects when it's my finish of choice.  Brings out the grain without darkening the wood.  Hard, durable, waterproof...and easy!  Nice job on that countertop!!  Rick


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## semipro (Nov 24, 2009)

I've used Minwax's water-based poly for many years and been happy with it.  As someone mentioned earlier, the water-based poly won't yellow.  I also find that I don't have to sand between coats if I reapply the next coat before the prior one fully dries.  

I'd worry about any finishes that are alcohol soluble as some varnishes are.  Even vanilla extract has some alcohol in it. 

I think the bar finish is worth looking into.   What's proven is usually best.

Oh yeah, really nice work!


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## timfromohio (Nov 25, 2009)

Thanks for the continued advice.  I found a kit at Lowes that was for the bar finish and it seems to be extremely durable but visibly quite thick.  I'll probably go with the water-based poly, but will try on a test piece first.


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## PapaDave (Nov 25, 2009)

fossil said:
			
		

> Minwax Polyurethane.  2 or 3 coats (sand lightly with ultra-fine paper between coats...let it dry thoroughly before sanding ~24 hrs).  I like the clear satin for most projects when it's my finish of choice.  Brings out the grain without darkening the wood.  Hard, durable, waterproof...and easy!  Nice job on that countertop!!  Rick



Well, 
There ya' go.
I'm assisting my brother with a rustic pine table. Ok, well, the other way around, but it's HIS table in MY shop. We're going to try a brushing lacquer. Should be interesting.

Dave


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## littlesmokey (Nov 25, 2009)

Hope I'm not stepping in too late. Walnut is a very porous wood. For best smooth results, get rid of what you have put on already. Use a poured fill material and sand to 220 grit. Then finish with a Poly finish for best results in a high use environment. There are better products out there, but they need to be professionally applied. I think solvent based poly looks a little better in a semi or satin sheen. Water base can be a little cloudy. Follow the manufacturers instructions without adjustment. If it says reapply within 2 hours, that means two hours. If wait 24 hours, scuff and re-apply do that. Modern finishes need to bond one coat to another, if you don't do what they say it will lead to finish failure. Choose a product line. Minwax products, SW products, Cabots, etc. Use the sellers expertise. 

If you want to skip the fill step, you will have an open grained finish. No way to fill the pores without adding too much finish. Don't use floor finish. It's for floors and many have abrasives added to protect from scuffing. Most finishes are harmless when dry, but the drying may result in certain gasses being given off. Crack you can and have everyone take a good sniff. If someone protests, make it an overnight away, may need two. Even water based can smell to some. I really don't like the smell of Silver minwax, for about two days. I use a laquer my neighbor can't stand for two days. I have to wait until just the right wind to use it, or do it overnight and leave the fan on high. 

It's a beautiful wood. It will color shift on you with UV light exposure, so expect some change. I like the look of old walnut, and don't mind the shift, others don't like it, but there is no way to stop it.

The one thing I failed to mention is a need to seal the wood all the way around. That means the bottom needs finish. Especially in a kitchen with the radical changes in humidity the wood will move. If not sealed it may warp seriously or crack where you don't want it to. End grain is very important too, so where it is exposed give it a couple extra passes with the brush or gun.

Hope this all helps.


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## semipro (Nov 25, 2009)

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> Hope I'm not stepping in too late. Walnut is a very porous wood. For best smooth results, get rid of what you have put on already. Use a poured fill material and sand to 220 grit. Then finish with a Poly finish for best results in a high use environment. There are better products out there, but they need to be professionally applied. I think solvent based poly looks a little better in a semi or satin sheen. Water base can be a little cloudy. Follow the manufacturers instructions without adjustment. If it says reapply within 2 hours, that means two hours. If wait 24 hours, scuff and re-apply do that. Modern finishes need to bond one coat to another, if you don't do what they say it will lead to finish failure. Choose a product line. Minwax products, SW products, Cabots, etc. Use the sellers expertise.



I like the satin finish too.  I'd agree on the cloudiness of water-based poly but have found that only happens when applied too thickly.  I like to apply WB poly with a HVLP paint sprayer for projects like this.  I have numerous projects around the house approaching 10 years of hard use (2 teenage sons, 4 dogs, a cat) that show zero deterioration using the "no sanding between coats method" I mentioned.  (see photo)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with littlesmokey on the drying time... at least with respect to water-based products.  I've found their drying time to be *highly *dependent upon humidity and temp.  What dries in 10 minutes on one day may requires 2 hours another. 

Whatever way you go, good luck with it.


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## PapaDave (Nov 25, 2009)

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> Hope I'm not stepping in too late. Walnut is a very porous wood. For best smooth results, get rid of what you have put on already. Use a poured fill material and sand to 220 grit. Then finish with a Poly finish for best results in a high use environment. There are better products out there, but they need to be professionally applied. I think solvent based poly looks a little better in a semi or satin sheen. Water base can be a little cloudy. Follow the manufacturers instructions without adjustment. If it says reapply within 2 hours, that means two hours. If wait 24 hours, scuff and re-apply do that. Modern finishes need to bond one coat to another, if you don't do what they say it will lead to finish failure. Choose a product line. Minwax products, SW products, Cabots, etc. Use the sellers expertise.
> 
> If you want to skip the fill step, you will have an open grained finish. No way to fill the pores without adding too much finish. Don't use floor finish. It's for floors and many have abrasives added to protect from scuffing. Most finishes are harmless when dry, but the drying may result in certain gasses being given off. Crack you can and have everyone take a good sniff. If someone protests, make it an overnight away, may need two. Even water based can smell to some. I really don't like the smell of Silver minwax, for about two days. I use a laquer my neighbor can't stand for two days. I have to wait until just the right wind to use it, or do it overnight and leave the fan on high.
> 
> ...



This is an excellent point.


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## johnn (Nov 25, 2009)

so true,about wood fillers!
Depends so much on the wood grain and the type finish you are wanting to look at!

littlesmokey::
I screwed up a small end table,,ended up with a milky finish. It was sprayed on and I`m wondering if it may have been too thick or too high of humidity when applying. Any thoughts? Usually i do the old brush on method and wet sanding between numerous coats, and things turn out great. FWIW, I prefer the glossy finish when using lacquer depending on the project piece. Not saying I havn`t done some great hand rub pieces, (oil)


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## littlesmokey (Nov 25, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> so true,about wood fillers!
> Depends so much on the wood grain and the type finish you are wanting to look at!
> 
> littlesmokey::
> I screwed up a small end table,,ended up with a milky finish. It was sprayed on and I`m wondering if it may have been too thick or too high of humidity when applying. Any thoughts? Usually i do the old brush on method and wet sanding between numerous coats, and things turn out great. FWIW, I prefer the glossy finish when using lacquer depending on the project piece. Not saying I havn`t done some great hand rub pieces, (oil)



Hard to say what might have gone wrong. If you followed the manufacturer's schedule, it has to be something else. Some things that cause cloudiness are trapped solvents (ex. stain not dry before top coat), moisture(high humidity before finishing or too much water in water-based finishes, too much finish. Mil/specs are real tight with new finishes. Too many coats or too thick coats can cause this. Not stirring the can enough can fail to mix the finish and lead to uneven drying.

Regardless, start over. Restrip, but wait several days for it to fully dry. Start your finish steps, but make sure it is dry each step. For example, if you use a water based stain, don't finish when it dulls, but let it dry at room temp(60+f) at least a day, maybe two. Lighter coats, timed spacing. Spraying is tricky, but gives the best overall finish. When you have thinned to spray, do test passes to see how much is deposited on each pass. If it runs, it's too much. HVLP systems are available for little money, but spend enough to get a good system.

 Rental units from Paint stores are better than from rental yards, they are better taken care of. Like on the counter top a weekend rental should be enough time. All finishes dry in a different way. some down up others up down. What works for one brand won't work for another usually. Brushing is good if specified by the product, I'm a losy brush man, so I use the hardware.


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## timfromohio (Nov 25, 2009)

We have a HVLP sprayer, but have not yet used.  I don't think I want to experiment on the counter top.  I went ahead and bought oil-based finish.  I smelled it at the store and it wasn't too bad.  I'll build a fire in the stove so that the humidity in the room is low in order to facilitate quick drying.  Do you guys really think the bottom of the counter needs to be finished?  It's not yet permanently attached to the cabinets, but would just be a pain to remove ...


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## lacewood (Nov 26, 2009)

I do some pretty high end kitchens in new england, and for any of the wood tops we use waterlox finish....very durable and looks fantastic, downside is the smell, dry time and for sure I would remove the top and put equal coats of finish on the top and bottom of your counter. It takes us about a week to finish one of these, allowing for the drying time and multiple coats

And when you fasten I would make a larger hole, screw and washer..just to make sure it can move a little bit, may not be a huge deal but I would still do it


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## John the Painter (Dec 1, 2009)

Hope I'm not coming in to late as well.There is a product called Emulsion.It's kind of a hybryd if you will.Oil and water based in one.Low odur and applies like a water based.Seems to stand up well.
Good luck and great job on the counter.


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## jebatty (Dec 1, 2009)

> And when you fasten I would make a larger hole, screw and washer..just to make sure it can move a little bit, may not be a huge deal but I would still do it



You probably did this, but very impt to allow the counter-top to "float" to prevent cracking.

A big reason for hard maple butcherblock is to pretty much eliminate the need for finishing. Counter-top should be able to take a beating, scratches, cuts, etc. Wood is wood, and that high finish look really isn't natural, and it will be a bear to maintain. That's also the reason for plastic laminates, stone and composites. 

You might consider, although a bit late, is a butcherblock or composite cutting board inserts set into the counter-top but about 1/8" above the surface. This can be your hard work surface to spare the rest from a beating. Also a good place to rest a hot fry pan, baking dish, kettle. We used plastic laminate but I installed two of these hard work inserts, one close to the sink and another close to the oven and cooktop.

Still, you did a beautiful job -- hope it ends up being practical.


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## timfromohio (Dec 1, 2009)

jebatty - thanks for the compliment.  I now have four coats of oil-based poly on the countertop and it's looking very nice.  I took the pieces out the garage to refinish.  I had originally thought of a butcherblock design, but my wife wanted more of a table-top look.  However, we don't use the countertop as a cutting surface, so as long as it can stand up to dishes, etc. being placed on it, it should be OK.


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