# Isle Royale Smoking... a lot



## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

Well, I'm back. 
My new stove is now smoking. Please see the two videos that I have links to below.
My questions are 1, why is it smoking and 2, why is the smoke leaving the stove where it is. It isn't visible but it does come out around the doors too. In one of the videos it visible at the bottom and in the back too. 
I did not install a thing. All I did was buy the stove and pay for it's installation from the same dealer.
My wife and I waited three years for this stove and we were so happy to finally buy it. But...
Note: In case you are unfamiliar with my previous thread it did over fire out of the box and did reach 900+ degrees. The dealer came back and replaced a gasket around the stove door. After that the stoves running temp dropped to 800 degrees but still burnt the hardwood very quickly.I guess it would. Now with these videos new being sent to them I have not heard a thing. I think that is just morally wrong. Almost 6500 dollars and nothing. Thank you for any helpful knowledge that you may have and share.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/with/13144241155/


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 14, 2014)

Peeps here know a lot more than me and they'll chime in. Initial thoughts are cold pipe (reverse draft) or clogged pipe/cap.

Others will ask what you chimney set up is, length, turns, materials, etc...
How much wood have you run through the stove?
When does it primarily smoke like that, just start ups?
Have you checked your door gaskets with a dollar bill to make sure they're tight?

They'll get it figured out for you.  Good luck.


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## webby3650 (Mar 14, 2014)

What is the temp beside the top plate. That top plate will always be the hottest part of that stove. My Oslo will read 200 degrees hotter on the center oval than the corner. That's why they say to measure on the corner.
As for the smoking, give it some air! Almost every stove will puke smoke when the fire isn't established and the air is reduced all the way. The fact that their are no flames in the box tells me that either the fire wasn't established or the wood isn't seasoned. When the stove back puffs, smoke will come out of any perfectly good gasket, and the primary air inlet. Check the temps on other parts of the stove and don't reduce the air so soon or all the way.


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

The stove had been burning and there were hot coals in the stove. I was merely reloading. The only reason the vents were closed at this particular time was that I wanted to control the smoke entering my home. I was not able to do this. The video does not show all the smoke that I could see leaving the stove.
It was very windy that day.
At this time, I am in disagreement with the comment "smoke will come out of any perfectly good gasket".
It is my opinion that a good gasket won't leak.

Merriam Webster"s definition of Gasket: a piece of rubber or some other material that is used to make a tight seal between two parts that are joined together.
Merriam Webster"s definition of Seal: to close or make secure against access, leakage, or passage by a fastening or coating


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## MishMouse (Mar 14, 2014)

I would be more concerned that your wall is reading 175


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

It does not pass the test. The company that sold me the stove told me that the "Dollar bill test was stupid" they would not replace the gaskets. My stove was installed on February 18. Some of the smoke did get released around the doors.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 14, 2014)

Idk, these gaskets are rope on metal, not suction rubber like they use on refrigeration. The dollar bill test proves that the seal is not absolute...
I have spots on mine that it does pass, but I don't have smoke come in my room because I have great draft.....


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

Mish Mouse, I have a multitude of problems with something my wife and I saved and treated ourselves to!
Thank you for trying to keep us safe! I agree 175 is ridiculously hot.


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## Nick Mystic (Mar 14, 2014)

In the first video it looks like the smoke is leaking out of the bottom of the stove near where the ash door is probably located. Did you check to make sure the door was tightly shut? I certainly wouldn't burn a stove that was letting that much smoke out with all the doors shut tight on it. As already asked, tell us about your chimney set up.


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 14, 2014)

I didn't see any smoke in the last video with the flames. I saw smoke when you had no flames. Is this what's going on?


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Mar 14, 2014)

Sometimes you need to leave the door cracked just a bit to get more draft especially when you have no flame like that.... I think draft is your problem and you may have loaded bigger size wood on coal that were not able to immediately ignite the wood. Try using thinner dryer pieces on redder hotter coals....


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

Nick,
It goes up four feet, has a 90 degree elbow out an exterior wall to another 90 degree elbow and goes up for an approximate total of 27 feet above the top of the stove. It is stainless steel and 6". 
I did not install it.
My guess is it should have been higher because it is lower than my highest ridge. 
I know that there are rules for that but again, I am not the installer.
As for the ash pan, absolutely it was closed. Thanks.


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## Jags (Mar 14, 2014)

You can't reload this stove with the primary air closed.
If you are getting smoke on a hot restart you either have a backdraft issue or something is plugged up. Primary air closed down during this time will amplify the problems.


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

Jags, Thank you for your response. The only reason the vents were closed at this particular time was that I wanted to control the smoke entering my home. They were initially open. So, I guess if the choices for smoke entering my home are a clogged chimney or a back draft problem then I would have to say it is a back draft problem. The installers did put a cap on it which I verified is still there.
Good, question one is solved.
Thank you


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## Jags (Mar 14, 2014)

The problem is that the controls for the primary air can't be completely closed (by design).  It may have slowed down the entrance of smoke to the home, but it really can't stop it.  It is puzzling to me that if the flue was warm/hot from the previous fire that the draft on that 27 ft pipe wouldn't overcome a negative draft or backdraft issue.  Its like you are going from one extreme (overfire) to another (bad draft).


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## rkofler (Mar 14, 2014)

Light a few pieces of newspaper on top to try to get a good draft going.


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 14, 2014)

js156 said:


> Jags, Thank you for your response. The only reason the vents were closed at this particular time was that I wanted to control the smoke entering my home. They were initially open. I guess it is a back draft problem.
> Thank you




From what I've seen on here and also in person, I would look closely at a couple of things.

1. You said it was windy, should still function especially if it was already warm. You want the top of the chimney 10' away from the roof on a horizontal measure, plus 2' for drafting.  Specs are easy to look up, double check their install.

2. When was the last time the pipe was cleaned? May be clogged up restricting air flow going up. 

3. Most common cause, if you have a screen on the cap it could be clogged up w ash, debris, etc, again restricting air flow.

If I wait too long to reload I'll get a lot of smoke but it all stays where it belongs.

There may be more to it but that's all I can offer up.


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## webby3650 (Mar 14, 2014)

js156 said:


> The stove had been burning and there were hot coals in the stove. I was merely reloading. The only reason the vents were closed at this particular time was that I wanted to control the smoke entering my home. I was not able to do this. The video does not show all the smoke that I could see leaving the stove.
> It was very windy that day.
> At this time, I am in disagreement with the comment "smoke will come out of any perfectly good gasket".
> It is my opinion that a good gasket won't leak.
> ...


I promise you, a gasket will leak if a stove is back puffing! It'll do it on a brand new stove. Closing the air down is not the answer. Can you see through the cap? We've had lots of clogged caps this year, even after only a few months of burning. Check that cap. Also make sure your Tee cap is sealed tight.


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## northwinds (Mar 14, 2014)

Your chimney wasn't drafting enough to send the smoke up.  When you closed the air, you choked off the draft further and made the matter worse.  Still, I'm glad to hear that your overfire/overdraft problems have changed into a not enough fire/not enough draft problem.  That latter is much easier to fix.  To get more draft and an easier to start fire on reload, use smaller wood on the hot coals and give the fire full primary air.  Don't overdo it or you'll have your overfire problem again.

Running a stove is a bit of an art, and there is a learning curve.   More air and warmer flue, better draft.  Less air and cold flue, crappy draft.  As Jags said, normally on a reload, your flue should already be warm.  But a scant coalbed and big wood will surely produce smoke, particularly when temps are warmer outside.  

Personally, I doubt that your chimney is clogged given your overfire experiences.   So I take it that the dealer couldn't find anything structurally defective with the Isle Royale in terms of cracks or anything?  And I hope you took them to task for telling you not to use the start-up air (a particularly useful control when your stove is cold and the temps outside are warm).


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

The installer made a note on the job form that more pipe may be needed and that a review is needed. I imagine, after this experience, he was right. He said if it was up to him he would have installed at least 4 more feet.


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

NWinds, Unfortunately, my over fires were still occurring. I have since stopped using the stove. The videos don't show the smoke leaving the doors well.
I think it stands to reason if the wind can blow air through my stove doors, and elsewhere, my over firing can pull air at will through the same openings.
Thank you.


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## webby3650 (Mar 14, 2014)

There are still many unanswered questions above that could lead to answers. Help us help you.


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## Kobeman (Mar 14, 2014)

Seems as tho the smoke is coming from the primary air slot, the slot the slider moves in.  You can barely see the slider if you shine a light up in  there.  I have almost the same chimney set up and can't believe you have lost the draft.  I'd check that "T" clean out cap and if accessible go up top for a quick look. This is why I really like my cheap dwyer draft meter, I have to run a key damper and I use it to confirm my settings till I learn my stove better, based upon my experience my isle likes .04" draft with air closed.  Anything over .06 my flue temps start climbing, below .02 I get smoke out the stack, your mileage may very, don't give up on the beautiful stove there are lots of good people here that will stick with you and guide you along.  Any pictures of the outside stack?


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## rideau (Mar 14, 2014)

For starters, from OP's comments, it appear that his door gasket does not seal, has not from the beginning, and his dealer has told him there is no need for it to do so.  If he is still suffering from overfires, shouldn't he document that he has been given this advice?  I would be concerned that he is at risk for ruining his stove with overfires, and the company may not honor a warranty claim "because he overfired the stove".  Shouldn't he fix that seal before anything else?


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## tcassavaugh (Mar 14, 2014)

sorry about the smoking stove, especially after your expectations of a beautiful new stove were not what you envisioned. to me, it sounds like maybe one of a couple of things. one the gaskets suck and so does the service. second, it sounds like you have a draft problem possibly caused by a clog or an inability to get the pipe hot soon enough so you get smoke spillage caused by a downdraft.  you say you have a 90 degree then another 90 degree at the chimney. wonder if a couple of 45's from your stove tot the thimble would help? My summit stove sometimes does not draft well when trying to start it. I often get spillage some until it gets a good burn in it.  you've probably already done this, but try putting some small splits (kindling) and get it going quickly and leaving the door open slightly so it gets more air. the videos looked like there was no fire going hardly at all. when I have a rip roaring fire. and I close down all my drafts, I sometimes get some puffing caused by intermittent ignition of the gasses. I have a key damper to slow the roll and sometimes, I have it closed a little bit much and I get some smoke seepage from the intakes or the pipe junction into the stove.

I'd contact my dealer again, after making sure the pipe is not impeded at all and see if you can put your heads together and work something out, especially since they did the install. if there is still an impasse and the issue can't be resolved, I'd let them know you were going to lodge a complaint with the better business bureau and show them courtesy copy of the letter and see if that gets any results.  good luck.


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## northwinds (Mar 14, 2014)

There's more info available regarding the stove set-up and the range of problems experienced here:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/isle-royale-difficult-to-control-the-burn.125189/


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> From what I've seen on here and also in person, I would look closely at a couple of things.
> 
> 1. You said it was windy, should still function especially if it was already warm. You want the top of the chimney 10' away from the roof on a horizontal measure, plus 2' for drafting.  Specs are easy to look up, double check their install.
> 
> ...




Okay, I went up on the roof, after I thought of, and found, a 10' length of downspout (something straight) and discovered that the top of the chimney cap is about 12" below the level downspout. The chimney cap measures about 6" high so really the chimney exhaust is lower. Perhaps 18" lower depending on what counts.
Now, it so happens that the chimney runs in a valley. It is about 22" above (again to the top of the chimney cap) and about 16" from where the smoke exhausts in regards to that roof.
My guess is that the chimney is not less then 3'6" too short and it took until that windy night to present the problem and give me a downdraft.


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## js156 (Mar 14, 2014)

tcassavaugh said:


> sorry about the smoking stove, especially after your expectations of a beautiful new stove were not what you envisioned. to me, it sounds like maybe one of a couple of things. one the gaskets suck and so does the service. second, it sounds like you have a draft problem possibly caused by a clog or an inability to get the pipe hot soon enough so you get smoke spillage caused by a downdraft.  you say you have a 90 degree then another 90 degree at the chimney. wonder if a couple of 45's from your stove tot the thimble would help? My summit stove sometimes does not draft well when trying to start it. I often get spillage some until it gets a good burn in it.  you've probably already done this, but try putting some small splits (kindling) and get it going quickly and leaving the door open slightly so it gets more air. the videos looked like there was no fire going hardly at all. when I have a rip roaring fire. and I close down all my drafts, I sometimes get some puffing caused by intermittent ignition of the gasses. I have a key damper to slow the roll and sometimes, I have it closed a little bit much and I get some smoke seepage from the intakes or the pipe junction into the stove.
> 
> I'd contact my dealer again, after making sure the pipe is not impeded at all and see if you can put your heads together and work something out, especially since they did the install. if there is still an impasse and the issue can't be resolved, I'd let them know you were going to lodge a complaint with the better business bureau and show them courtesy copy of the letter and see if that gets any results.  good luck.



Thank you for the post. I have sent the dealer these videos on Wednesday night and they have not gotten back to me at all. I spent just short of 6500 on something that I can't use and they don't respond.
This stove had so much smoke coming out of it all over that my house still smells. The camera is being moved so much because I am trying to capture it, to locate the problems, but there seem to be too many. There is smoke coming out the back of it near the stove pipe and the bottom of it. These can be seen in the videos but a lot of it doesn't show too. At least for me when I tried to video the doors. I guess the dealer could fix the doors, if they ever call, but where is everything else coming from? And at this point who can I trust to diagnose the stove?
Prior to this I was in communication with the dealer about the over firing and I was getting blown off then. Now, they continued to blow me off after the videos I sent on the 12th. A Quadra Fire approved dealer I might add. Can the standards get any lower?

A 175 degree wall...blown off
Over firing....blown off
Back Drafting...blown off
Leaky stove...we will see.

Thank you for your interest.


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## northwinds (Mar 15, 2014)

Js:  There are many people here who can help you sort out your issues, but you have to get past your unhappiness about the stove, the dealer, the manufacturer and focus upon the questions people have asked to try to diagnose your problem. If you can't get past that, post more photos:  the interior chimney, the exterior chimney.  Record and report stovetop temperatures if and when you start a fire again at different stages of the fire.  And use the air controls the way they were designed to be used. There are many people who are  happy with this stove.  Be careful about blaming the stove for what might be a chimney or stove operation issue.  I've had smoke come out of my stove also, but it was because I used too big of wood on a warm day, not because there was anything wrong with my stove.  My stove has run too hot at times, but it was because I was using too small of wood or failing to close the primary air gradually before the stove became too hot, or loading on too hot of a coalbed.  Over time, I learned what worked, and I haven't any problems in several years.  Wood stoves are more work than gas furnaces.  It's definitely not set and forget.


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## Hoozie (Mar 15, 2014)

js156 said:


> Okay, I went up on the roof, after I thought of, and found, a 10' length of downspout (something straight) and discovered that the top of the chimney cap is about 12" below the level downspout. The chimney cap measures about 6" high so really the chimney exhaust is lower. Perhaps 18" lower depending on what counts.
> Now, it so happens that the chimney runs in a valley. It is about 22" above (again to the top of the chimney cap) and about 16" from where the smoke exhausts in regards to that roof.
> My guess is that the chimney is not less then 3'6" too short and it took until that windy night to present the problem and give me a downdraft.



Got a picture of that?  That sounds like it could be your entire problem.  I'd probably find a cheap section of 6" pipe to temporarily add to the existing chimney to see if it makes a difference, then do it right with the proper pipe.  Or just start with the proper pipe, since it sounds like the chimney height is definitely a problem.


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## begreen (Mar 15, 2014)

Too short a chimney can introduce a puffback. This is especially possible if the wood is less than ideal and the fire dampered down too quickly. Weak draft, and a poor start cause the fire to smolder and the flame goes out. When a flame reappears and unburnt wood gas ignites it creates a small explosion which will force smoke out of every orifice and seam of the stove. If this is what happened, it is operator error, not the stove. The stove is not "leaky". Many of us have had this happen as we were learning to burn in a new stove, it's not an uncommon early burning experience. Fixing the stove pipe will help reduce this possibility, but changing one's fire starting habits will also be required.


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## ArsenalDon (Mar 15, 2014)

As an IR owner, a number of things lead me to think operator error.  On reloads, open baffle, open primary air and if it is not taking off I quite often open the startup air too. Once the flue is heated up enough it will draft well, then you can open the baffle.


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

northwinds said:


> Js:  There are many people here who can help you sort out your issues, but you have to get past your unhappiness about the stove, the dealer, the manufacturer and focus upon the questions people have asked to try to diagnose your problem. If you can't get past that, post more photos:  the interior chimney, the exterior chimney.  Record and report stovetop temperatures if and when you start a fire again at different stages of the fire.  And use the air controls the way they were designed to be used. There are many people who are  happy with this stove.  Be careful about blaming the stove for what might be a chimney or stove operation issue.  I've had smoke come out of my stove also, but it was because I used too big of wood on a warm day, not because there was anything wrong with my stove.  My stove has run too hot at times, but it was because I was using too small of wood or failing to close the primary air gradually before the stove became too hot, or loading on too hot of a coalbed.  Over time, I learned what worked, and I haven't any problems in several years.  Wood stoves are more work than gas furnaces.  It's definitely not set and forget.



NW, I appreciate your response and you are right in that I have to get past my frustration and disappointment with both Quadrafire and the shady dealer. 
But I was reminded yesterday when I needed to replace a part for my sons aquarium just how bad Quadrafires customer service is.
This wasn't a back puff. I wouldn't be writing about that. This was a continuous draft of smoke that I could not control or stop. It lasted until the wind died down and will happen again the next time the wind is at that speed and from that direction. Perhaps it can happen from other directions too I don't yet know. 
The overfires are a result of the stove getting too much air.
I did not make the stove and I did not install it.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2014)

It sounds like all your issues are chimney draft related. Down drafts and excessive draft can all be induced by wind. Now, how bout some pics of your set-up.


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## begreen (Mar 18, 2014)

Can you post a couple pictures of the chimney, the house showing the chimney and surrounding area, and the stove with piping?

I'm wondering if you would benefit from replacing the cap with a vacustack cap.

http://vacustack.com/ICP_pages/products1.html


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

webby3650 said:


> It sounds like all your issues are chimney draft related. Down drafts and excessive draft can all be induced by wind. Now, how bout some pics of your set-up.



Some pic's of my set up.
The chimney is very close to being 1 foot 6 inches below level at 10 feet. (As I said) Needing another 3 feet 6 inches to be two feet above level at 10 feet. If you need to do your own math the siding has a 6 1/2" reveal and you can scale it. In the 3rd picture those nails have smashed the heck out of it and the rigid insulation beneath it. I'll have to see if there is something more aesthetically pleasing. But this is my "professional" install.


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## ksc (Mar 18, 2014)

Did they pull a permit and get it inspected?


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

ksc said:


> Did they pull a permit and get it inspected?



I doubt it. There was nothing on my window. Thanks for asking.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2014)

That does look like it needs extended. And I wonder why the t support is so high? I'd also be curious to see what that support is screwed to? It's a challenge to find structure behind vinyl siding that will hold the support firmly enough. We usually need to remove the siding and add blocking between the studs. That thimble is very uncraftsman like. The siding should have been removed, the thimble installed, J-channelled around and the siding put back. I've never seen a "pro" install one over the siding.


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## ksc (Mar 18, 2014)

I think you need to compile a little "packet" with all the pertinent info and send it to your CC  company. Your CC company will usually side with you on any dispute.


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## begreen (Mar 18, 2014)

WTH? I wonder why the T support isn't supporting the T?

What direction do your prevailing winds come from and what side of the house is the chimney?


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

webby3650 said:


> That does look like it needs extended. And I wonder why the t support is so high? I'd also be curious to see what that support is screwed to? It's a challenge to find structure behind vinyl siding that will hold the support firmly enough. We usually need to remove the siding and add blocking between the studs. That thimble is very uncraftsman like. The siding should have been removed, the thimble installed, J-channelled around and the siding put back. I've never seen a "pro" install one over the siding.



Webby, Can I assume you want to say That looks like it needs (to be) extended.
The make up of the wall from the inside out is, 1/2 drywall, 2x4 studs, 7/16 osb, 1/2 rigid insulation, vinyl siding.
The stove pipe went out in the very middle of two studs.
Their personalities matched their workmanship.
Thank you for your post.


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

begreen said:


> WTH? I wonder why the T support isn't supporting the T?
> 
> What direction do your prevailing winds come from and what side of the house is the chimney?



Hello BeGreen. That side of our house faces North West. In the winter, that is usually the side that the wind blows against. Yeah, snow drifts and all are fed from that direction. Thanks for asking.


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## northwinds (Mar 18, 2014)

Thanks for posting the photos.  Not sure what the installers were thinking.  Were you presented with other options for chimney placement?  I pretty much hate tall exterior chimneys for this stove and the placement on the roof line makes it worse.  If they extend it, you're going to have a 30 foot plus chimney, and other people have had some issues with too much draft with too much chimney for this stove, once the draft is established.  I can see how you've been getting smoke and reverse draft too.  Like you said, you paid for a professional installation.  The Isle Royale deserved better.


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## PapaDave (Mar 18, 2014)

In the 4th pic, is it just me or is the piece coming out of the wall on a downward slope?
I'm also curious what's supporting the pipe, since the T-support top side isn't visible.
You need more Class A from the looks of that last pic.


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## northwinds (Mar 18, 2014)

ksc said:


> Did they pull a permit and get it inspected?



A permit isn't required in every state. My town clerk looked at me like I was crazy when I asked if a permit was required.  On the other hand, my insurance company required an inspection and photos for coverage.


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 18, 2014)

I'm no pro on chimney chimney installs. But I think it should look more like this. With the support UNDER the T and (mines built out) a nice block on the wall, flashed and J channel so the siding can still float. 

I'm sure you don't want to spend more money on this,  but it may be time to call a certified sweep/installer and have him give it a once over.


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

northwinds said:


> Thanks for posting the photos.  Not sure what the installers were thinking.  Were you presented with other options for chimney placement?  I pretty much hate tall exterior chimneys for this stove and the placement on the roof line makes it worse.  If they extend it, you're going to have a 30 foot plus chimney, and other people have had some issues with too much draft with too much chimney for this stove, once the draft is established.  I can see how you've been getting smoke and reverse draft too.  Like you said, you paid for a professional installation.  The Isle Royale deserved better.



Northwinds, Don't forget me! I deserved better too! 
To answer your question, I was not presented with options. My wife and I went to the store picked out the stove and the sales person gave us a quote on the installation without ever seeing the property. 
The stove was on back order and when it came in it was installed two days later. The installer made note that additional pipe may be needed but it was for the office to determine. No one ever got back to me so I assumed it was safe to use. From there I had the over fire issues that still exist and then on Wednesday the 12th it was windy here and we got that downdraft. 
I have been sending these videos and more to the dealer but they do not get back to me.


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> View attachment 129968
> 
> I'm no pro on chimney chimney installs. But I think it should look more like this. With the support UNDER the T and (mines built out) a nice block on the wall, flashed and J channel so the siding can still float.
> 
> I'm sure you don't want to spend more money on this,  but it may be time to call a certified sweep/installer and have him give it a once over.



Yours looks like a better install then mine, that is for sure. 
I too think I have to have someone else re install the chimney. I don't want to because of the liability. 
Northwinds, I am fairly sure I would need a permit and a state issued contractors license number as to do work in Pa you need one. Plus Contractors Insurance. But you may not need that on your own house. I don't want to play with fire though. But I could not do it worse then them.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2014)

Warm_in_NH said:


> View attachment 129968
> 
> I'm no pro on chimney chimney installs. But I think it should look more like this. With the support UNDER the T and (mines built out) a nice block on the wall, flashed and J channel so the siding can still float.
> 
> I'm sure you don't want to spend more money on this,  but it may be time to call a certified sweep/installer and have him give it a once over.


I agree that its better to have the support under the T, but some chimney systems allow the T to be supported from above for a short distance. This set-up is probably OK, assuming that support is attached into more than foam board.


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## Warm_in_NH (Mar 18, 2014)

webby3650 said:


> I agree that its better to have the support under the T, but some chimney systems allow the T to be supported from above for a short distance. This set-up is probably OK, assuming that support is attached into more than foam board.



Interesting to learn. My initial thought was that it was like wearing your under ware on the outside when I saw it done that way. 
But mine and his are clearly different manufacturers and as I've only done one, mine, I wasn't aware of one that would look so similar but be able to perform properly while looking so counter intuitive. 

I actually feel a lot better about the that pic w the bracket posted by js now.


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

PapaDave said:


> In the 4th pic, is it just me or is the piece coming out of the wall on a downward slope?
> I'm also curious what's supporting the pipe, since the T-support top side isn't visible.
> You need more Class A from the looks of that last pic.



I will get you a picture of the top of the t support. After seeing the picture from Warm In NH I don't know what they were thinking. If I had to guess I will see some screws here and there. We will see.
How does Quadra Fire approve their distributors? Every time I call Quad or send an email I get these one sentence replies to contact my dealer. Well, you can see what kind of dealer I have. Perhaps now everyone on this board can understand my lousy predicament.


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## js156 (Mar 18, 2014)

webby3650 said:


> I agree that its better to have the support under the T, but some chimney systems allow the T to be supported from above for a short distance. This set-up is probably OK, assuming that support is attached into more than foam board.



webby, Do you know why it wouldn't be under? The wall construction is obviously the same below it as it is above it. They did not go high enough to reach the floor joists above. Thank you


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2014)

It gets crowded around the T. In this instance I'm not sure why they did it this way. I will usually add a 6" piece below the T so there is more room for the support and its clamp. This way it's still supported from below.


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## northwinds (Mar 18, 2014)

Most stove manufacturers with dealer networks rely upon their dealers to communicate with the customer.  I'm guessing that's why Quad isn't responding to-date. 

When I bought my stove and when I re-installed my stove in a different house, the Quad dealer came out beforehand for a site review so it could be determined where best to put the stove and where the chimney should go.  That service was provided for free once the dealer knew we were serious about buying the stove.  In both cases, they made a strong recommendation for an interior chimney for better performance, which we agreed to even though it meant giving up some interior space.


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## ArsenalDon (Mar 18, 2014)

looks eerily similar to my setup which we have had no problems with per se.

I will try to post a similar set of pics.


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## begreen (Mar 18, 2014)

js156 said:


> Hello BeGreen. That side of our house faces North West. In the winter, that is usually the side that the wind blows against. Yeah, snow drifts and all are fed from that direction. Thanks for asking.



Based on the wind direction, adjacent roofs and the images I am reminded of one of John Gulland's warnings.



Read up here and see if you think this applies.   http://www.woodheat.org/wind-chimney.html

PS: that T bracket has to be made correct. It is not supporting the T. You have firm ground for calling the installer on this error.


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## js156 (Mar 19, 2014)

begreen said:


> Based on the wind direction, adjacent roofs and the images I am reminded of one of John Gulland's warnings.
> View attachment 129994
> 
> Read up here and see if you think this applies.   http://www.woodheat.org/wind-chimney.html
> ...




Okay. So I have over firing, down drafting and a chimney that can fall away from my house. I have finally laughed at my situation.


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## northwinds (Mar 19, 2014)

If I were you, I'd bet your dealer a $100 that they couldn't start a normal size fire and keep it in a cruising range of 550-700.  If they can't do it, they know
they have a problem and owe you $100.  If they can do it, you can learn from watching how it's done and call it a valuable lesson for $100.  While they're out there, they can check the workmanship issues on the chimney.


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## begreen (Mar 19, 2014)

I think the downdraft is possibly the chimney location. A vacustack cap may help remedy the downdraft due to wind. The chimney support is unambiguous,  the installer messed up and needs to correct. The overfiring I suspect is a new operator learning the stove,  but could be wrong. The IR is a very willing beast. It breathes easily and may need to be damped in this situation for more certain control. Timing of reloads and proper timing of reduced air control settings are needed for steady temps.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 20, 2014)

I was an installer years ago. Your chimney is too short.

1. Measure 10' horizontally from chimney toward roof peak.
2. Chimney must be 2' higher than this point.
From your photos are those 3' sections of chimney? If yes then your chimney looks to be about 3' too short. The 3-10-2 chimney height rule has been around for decades and is explained in every installation manual yet installers (DIYers and pros) keep doing it wrong. 

I have Isle Royale with same setup as yours and I have a vacustack cap. I've never had a backdraft even in 40mph wind. Only time I get puffback is on lowest air setting. Sometimes the gases build up and suddenly ignite. Since air is on low the draft is minimal, thus smoke from this sudden ignition has to go somewhere so it finds its way through any opening. Happens rarely, not a cause for alarm. 

If I open doors too fast it'll smoke. Solution: open doors slowly.


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## js156 (Mar 20, 2014)

MattFoley772 said:


> I was an installer years ago. Your chimney is too short.
> 
> 1. Measure 10' horizontally from chimney toward roof peak.
> 2. Chimney must be 2' higher than this point.
> ...



Matt,
I did measure the chimney and it is  1 and 1/2 feet lower than the roof at ten feet so I guess it has to go up another 3 and 1/2 feet. The chimney pipes are 4 feet each.
Also, thank you for mentioning the puff back. I have seen that happen with the V.C. Defiant on youtube so I know exactly what that is. Unfortunately, I have an issue of back drafting during times of wind. Prior to taking the video clip that you saw I did have the air fully open but I was trying my best to stop the backdraft from entering my home and closed it. I was unsuccessful.
I am a bit surprised that the smoke continued to present itself as much as it did from the back of the stove, around the doors and in through the vent too.
I have read on this board by begreen and someone else that this stove "breathes easy" and "is an easy breather". At this time, I am taking that to be a nice way of saying drafty.
I am also dealing with overfiring. One poster on this board thought that this too could be caused buy having a chimney that is too short. Any thoughts? 
My position has been that I can't control the fire because I can't reduce the amount of air that it gets. I reach 810 or so on the lowest setting. I have never checked the highest setting. I don't think I should.


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## js156 (Mar 20, 2014)

northwinds said:


> Thanks for posting the photos.  Not sure what the installers were thinking.  Were you presented with other options for chimney placement?  I pretty much hate tall exterior chimneys for this stove and the placement on the roof line makes it worse.  If they extend it, you're going to have a 30 foot plus chimney, and other people have had some issues with too much draft with too much chimney for this stove, once the draft is established.  I can see how you've been getting smoke and reverse draft too.  Like you said, you paid for a professional installation.  The Isle Royale deserved better.



NW, Do you know how they handled this draft problem? It seems like a parallel situation. Thank you.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 21, 2014)

js156 said:


> Matt,
> I did measure the chimney and it is  1 and 1/2 feet lower than the roof at ten feet so I guess it has to go up another 3 and 1/2 feet. The chimney pipes are 4 feet each.
> Also, thank you for mentioning the puff back. I have seen that happen with the V.C. Defiant on youtube so I know exactly what that is. Unfortunately, I have an issue of back drafting during times of wind. Prior to taking the video clip that you saw I did have the air fully open but I was trying my best to stop the backdraft from entering my home and closed it. I was unsuccessful.
> I am a bit surprised that the smoke continued to present itself as much as it did from the back of the stove, around the doors and in through the vent too.
> ...


Since you realize your chimney is too short I'd fix that and see what happens. If it solves your problems, great. If not, I'd suggest a vacustack cap. 

Re overfiring, did you check ALL gaskets? Doors, glass, ash pan, top? Do you have a damper in your pipe? If not, get one. They're under $10 at Lowes and WILL slow your burn when all else won't. (You will still need to fix any gasket leaks to ensure the fire gets its air from the right places.)

Where did you find your installer? If he gets the chimney height wrong then what else did he get wrong? If I were you I'd personally check each and every installation detail, esp. clearance to combustibles per the chimney and stove manuals. Take pictures of measurements.  Keep all your paper work in case you need to sue this guy or your house burns down. Oh, is he insured? Is he certified? You paid good money and that entitles you to peace of mind and confidence in a job well done.


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## northwinds (Mar 21, 2014)

JS:  You spent a lot of money, relying upon the professionalism of the Quad dealer


MattFoley772 said:


> Since you realize your chimney is too short I'd fix that and see what happens. If it solves your problems, great. If not, I'd suggest a vacustack cap.
> 
> Re overfiring, did you check ALL gaskets? Doors, glass, ash pan, top? Do you have a damper in your pipe? If not, get one. They're under $10 at Lowes and WILL slow your burn when all else won't. (You will still need to fix any gasket leaks to ensure the fire gets its air from the right places.)
> 
> Where did you find your installer? If he gets the chimney height wrong then what else did he get wrong? If I were you I'd personally check each and every installation detail, esp. clearance to combustibles per the chimney and stove manuals. Take pictures of measurements.  Keep all your paper work in case you need to sue this guy or your house burns down. Oh, is he insured? Is he certified? You paid good money and that entitles you to peace of mind and confidence in a job well done.



Matt:  Not sure if you've read all of the posts relating to JS's problems, but his chimney is already 27 feet high.  I realize that his chimney may be too short in relationship to the top of his roof (and that isn't a good thing), but his chimney isn't short; it just doesn't meet the roof requirement.  My belief is that once he gets draft established in the correct direction, the thing is drafting like a Hoover, and that's what has led to overfiring.   His operation of the controls has also been questionable.  Starting the fire with all air controls closed and the door opened isn't optimal.  Neither is trying to keep the smoke out of the house by closing down the air supply.  That's not how these stoves work.  

JS:  The way people have controlled the stove from overfire with 30' plus of chimney is the way that begreen and others have already described:  a chimney damper.  It isn't optimal.  It would be better to have an 18 foot chimney that went above your roof line, but that isn't everyone's situation so people compensate with dampers.   The dealer would have saved itself a bunch of service calls with better planning and communication.  A preview of the stove site and a demonstration of how to use the stove was something that benefited me, along with advice from experienced users like Jags.

I don't know anything about vacustacks, but it sounds like this could also help your situation, JS.


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## Jags (Mar 21, 2014)

I agree completely with Northwinds.
To recap:  Extend the chimney for proper height.  This (hopefully) cures the downdraft issue.
Pipe damper above stove.  This (hopefully) cures overdraft.
Get the installer back out and get that pipe supported like it should be. (re-read Begreens posts for specifics).
Use the proper startup and operating procedures.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 21, 2014)

northwinds said:


> JS:  You spent a lot of money, relying upon the professionalism of the Quad dealer
> 
> 
> Matt:  Not sure if you've read all of the posts relating to JS's problems, but his chimney is already 27 feet high.  I realize that his chimney may be too short in relationship to the top of his roof (and that isn't a good thing), but his chimney isn't short; it just doesn't meet the roof requirement.  My belief is that once he gets draft established in the correct direction, the thing is drafting like a Hoover, and that's what has led to overfiring.   His operation of the controls has also been questionable.  Starting the fire with all air controls closed and the door opened isn't optimal.  Neither is trying to keep the smoke out of the house by closing down the air supply.  That's not how these stoves work.
> ...


Northwinds, I agree 27' is plenty for good draft...but it's "too short" to meet the 3-10-2 rule. Extending it has to be done regardless of his other problems and if doing so fixes those problems, even better...unless caused by operator error.

Other backdraft factors to consider: house too tight, chimney effect inside house, exhaust fans.


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## js156 (Mar 21, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your replies. 
It is not any news that I have had my reservations regarding chimney dampers. I had thought they were for drafty old stoves not for modern ones but enough people have suggested them for my situation so...I think Kobeman suggested a manometer. Again, where is my dealer.

Matt, The place that sold me the stove did send a service person out once and they replaced the ash pan door gasket. (This was a different person than the installers) I showed him how the clips that hold the glass in place were loose and would even fall out of place if you were to squeeze the glass. He told me he doesn't touch those because he's afraid of breaking the glass. This is unacceptable but I can't make a horse drink water either. I also told him that if I put a dollar bill behind the doors it will pull out against the manuals acceptable tolerances. To which he something like, I'm not stupid, I'm not going to believe everything that the manual says.

I think Quadrafire has a very poor "test" to approve a business to install their product. Or, this dealer totally disregards all that is suppose to be adhered to.
Quad ignores my emails or tells me to contact the dealer and the dealer, in my opinion, shouldn't have a license. But if they sell enough Quadrafires then I guess Quad looks the other way.
Like Northwinds and you and probably others have said, I paid good money for this stove and installation and deserve better but neither outfit has stepped up to the plate.

Matt, as far as what else is wrong besides leaky doors and a stove that overfired and according to page 21 of my manual, by definition, I don't have a warranty because of it. Also it was the installers that told me to leave the door open and avoid the rear vent. But, in their defense, when I do this I still get overfires it doesn't seem to matter. My supporting T Bracket is above the T. not under it. Another thing that I don't think anyone picked up on is the distance away from the house that this pipe is. They used a two foot pipe to go through the wall. It probably should have been 18". On the inside it goes to the elbow so it is maxed out there too. Perhaps the bright side here is if it is further away from the house the house is safer. I don't know.

This is a very questionable dealer and I think Quadrafire should get involved to help save the day but I am not holding my breath.
All I wanted was to enjoy a stove! I never thought any of this was possible. It's a wood stove in the 21st century right?


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## js156 (Mar 21, 2014)

There is one thing that I would like to say and it may be surprising. I do like the IR Stove. I just wish I didn't have the over firing and down drafts and of course the dealer issues stink. But that is not Quadrafires fault directly I guess.


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## begreen (Mar 21, 2014)

Wish I lived closer. I would tighten up those glass clips a little and snug up the door. Will the installer at least fix the T support so that it is properly supporting the Tee?

When you say the stove has overfired, what are the indications of this? Has the stove warped? I would also be happy to put in a key damper in the flue pipe.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 22, 2014)

js156 said:


> Thank you everyone for your replies.
> It is not any news that I have had my reservations regarding chimney dampers. I had thought they were for drafty old stoves not for modern ones but enough people have suggested them for my situation so...I think Kobeman suggested a manometer. Again, where is my dealer.
> 
> Matt, The place that sold me the stove did send a service person out once and they replaced the ash pan door gasket. (This was a different person than the installers) I showed him how the clips that hold the glass in place were loose and would even fall out of place if you were to squeeze the glass. He told me he doesn't touch those because he's afraid of breaking the glass. This is unacceptable but I can't make a horse drink water either. I also told him that if I put a dollar bill behind the doors it will pull out against the manuals acceptable tolerances. To which he something like, I'm not stupid, I'm not going to believe everything that the manual says.
> ...


Why do you say it was overfired? Is something warped or cracked? If it overfired due to faulty gaskets that's not your fault, they should honor the warranty esp. if you pointed it out and the service guy ignored it. If you burn with doors open that can overfire it. If you burn with rear startup air left open that can overfire it.  If you are sure you operated according to the manual I think you have grounds to sue the dealer and/or QF to honor the warranty to repair/replace, esp. if they told you they refuse to fix the loose glass and they ignored the manual or encouraged you to ignore it. 

There's nothing unsafe about the 2' chimney section inside.


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## geo91324 (Mar 22, 2014)

I've had an Isle Royale for some 5 years and found it to be a great stove. I have a large house and have the IR and 3 other stoves (a Hearthstone Heritage, a VC Encore and a VC Aspen). Each stove has its own quirks, each flue it's own characteristics. But one thing I know for sure, when I start an IR fire if I don't have the primary all the way pushed in and the secondary all the way to the left--maximum open for both--I can get some serious back puffing into the room. (Yes, through the gaskets and everywhere else.) The fact that the OP starts his fire with both vents shut and the right door open and that he can do this w/o back puffing means to me that there is one hell of a draft or much more likely a leak. My first bet, as was suggested earlier, is the ash pan door--either it is not securely closed or it is not sealed tight. (On this stove it is very easy to think you have closed the ash pan door securely when you really haven't.) Also, if the glass clips are loose this is another installation problem. They should be tight so that the glass seals tightly on its gasket.

Starting a smokeless fire is an art form and starting one with a double 90 flue is even more so. I always crack a window when starting any of my stoves and after about 5 minutes I close the window and with the IR about 10 or 15 minutes later close the startup vent (pull it all the way out). I always fill the firebox with the initial load which lasts quite a while, especially with the secondary (the slide) at medium or less.  When it comes time to reload remember that this stove is meant to be reloaded from the TOP, not the front.  Push the afterburner lever back, pull the startup control out (optional) and wait 30 sec to a minute to let the smoke around the afterburner get sucked up. Lift the top up, reload, close the top, pull the afterburner back, close the startup vent (pull out). It goes w/o saying you should be burning dry, well seasoned wood. 

I have a 30' chimney and have never had an over or under draft problem with this stove. The only back puffing I've ever had is if I forget to open the vents fully when starting a fire.  It's a great stove, little maintenance, and puts out a lot of heat. My suggestion is to bite the bullet and find a different (and well recommended) Quad dealer. Pay him the $200 or so service charge and let him check out the whole setup and start a fire.


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## ArsenalDon (Mar 22, 2014)

geo91324 said:


> When it comes time to reload remember that this stove is meant to be reloaded from the TOP, not the front.


Not sure where you get this from...only load mine from the front with zero issues ever.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 22, 2014)

js156 said:


> Well, I'm back.
> My new stove is now smoking. Please see the two videos that I have links to below.
> My questions are 1, why is it smoking and 2, why is the smoke leaving the stove where it is. It isn't visible but it does come out around the doors too. In one of the videos it visible at the bottom and in the back too.
> I did not install a thing. All I did was buy the stove and pay for it's installation from the same dealer.
> ...



I'm not trying to pour salt on a wound...but we just installed a mahogany enamel Qaud Isle Royale with all new pipe. We were in it for $3100, including delivery and install plus a 5 year warranty on everything from the dealer. Plus, they had a 2 hour drive one way to boot. 

I'd be on them like a spider money.


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## begreen (Mar 22, 2014)

To be a fair price comparison note the install was connecting to an existing chimney.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 22, 2014)

begreen said:


> To be a fair price comparison note the install was connecting to an existing chimney.


So another $2500 to punch a few holes? To turn around and have it not work? 

I'd be on them like a spider monkey.


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## begreen (Mar 22, 2014)

Agreed, there is no excuse for the poor workmanship. Point being, 27 ft of stainless class A, plus a tee, thimble and cap is not cheap.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 22, 2014)

begreen said:


> Agreed, there is no excuse for the poor workmanship. Point being, 27 ft of stainless class A, plus a tee, thimble and cap is not cheap.


I'd assume, more that half of that $6500 was the stove. I paid $2500-$2600 for the exact stove. But ceramic enamel. Which I was quoted for $3700 at another store. Some of these dealers a ripping people off.


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## js156 (Mar 22, 2014)

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> I'd assume, more that half of that $6500 was the stove. I paid $2500-$2600 for the exact stove. But ceramic enamel. Which I was quoted for $3700 at another store. Some of these dealers a ripping people off.



Like me. I did pay more for the chimney then the stove. I think it was 3100 for the stove and 3300 for the chimney; which I should have had someone else do. Well, it would have been good to buy the whole thing somewhere else.
As far as being a spider monkey, I have disputed the charges with the credit card co. We'll see.


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## js156 (Mar 22, 2014)

begreen said:


> Wish I lived closer. I would tighten up those glass clips a little and snug up the door. Will the installer at least fix the T support so that it is properly supporting the Tee?
> 
> When you say the stove has overfired, what are the indications of this? Has the stove warped? I would also be happy to put in a key damper in the flue pipe.



Thank you for saying this. I don't know if there are indications of an over fire or not. The front door on the right closes flush with the door beside it at the top. So the architectural details are flat, or smooth, between the two doors.  But at the bottom the door on the right is out about 1/4" preventing it from being flat, or smooth, to the door on the left. 
My guess is it is manufactured this way for tension but I don't know this for sure nor have I compared it to the same stove elsewhere. If anyone would like to see if there's is the same way I would greatly appreciate it. 
I did tighten the allen screws around the glass and I do think that was very helpful in lowering the stove temps from 900+ to 800+ as that glass was ready to fall out.
I am hesitant to install the damper, at this time, because I don't know where this will go and I don't want to there to be a damper there to blame for anything.
Hopefully this will be worked out next season!


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## js156 (Mar 22, 2014)

geo91324 said:


> I've had an Isle Royale for some 5 years and found it to be a great stove. I have a large house and have the IR and 3 other stoves (a Hearthstone Heritage, a VC Encore and a VC Aspen). Each stove has its own quirks, each flue it's own characteristics. But one thing I know for sure, when I start an IR fire if I don't have the primary all the way pushed in and the secondary all the way to the left--maximum open for both--I can get some serious back puffing into the room. (Yes, through the gaskets and everywhere else.) The fact that the OP starts his fire with both vents shut and the right door open and that he can do this w/o back puffing means to me that there is one hell of a draft or much more likely a leak. My first bet, as was suggested earlier, is the ash pan door--either it is not securely closed or it is not sealed tight. (On this stove it is very easy to think you have closed the ash pan door securely when you really haven't.) Also, if the glass clips are loose this is another installation problem. They should be tight so that the glass seals tightly on its gasket.
> 
> Starting a smokeless fire is an art form and starting one with a double 90 flue is even more so. I always crack a window when starting any of my stoves and after about 5 minutes I close the window and with the IR about 10 or 15 minutes later close the startup vent (pull it all the way out). I always fill the firebox with the initial load which lasts quite a while, especially with the secondary (the slide) at medium or less.  When it comes time to reload remember that this stove is meant to be reloaded from the TOP, not the front.  Push the afterburner lever back, pull the startup control out (optional) and wait 30 sec to a minute to let the smoke around the afterburner get sucked up. Lift the top up, reload, close the top, pull the afterburner back, close the startup vent (pull out). It goes w/o saying you should be burning dry, well seasoned wood.
> 
> I have a 30' chimney and have never had an over or under draft problem with this stove. The only back puffing I've ever had is if I forget to open the vents fully when starting a fire.  It's a great stove, little maintenance, and puts out a lot of heat. My suggestion is to bite the bullet and find a different (and well recommended) Quad dealer. Pay him the $200 or so service charge and let him check out the whole setup and start a fire.



I'm glad to hear it is a great stove. Some will get tired of reading this but I did have at least the secondary all the way open. The installer told me not to use the primary because people have a tendency to forget to close it. So, he said, leave the door open a little and when I see the fire begin to take then close the door. 
A service person did come out once to replace the ash pan door gasket with a larger diameter gasket. Between him changing that and myself tightening the glass up, it did help. Thanks you for these suggestions though. And in the future I will also open a window. But I would bet a half a gallon of milk that the smoke was due to the wind and low chimney.

One thing I did notice with this stove that surprises me. When I start a fire I can close the secondary, slide it to the right, and I can probably put the fire out. This happened for the first time after ash pan door gasket was changed and the glass was tightened. I was very optimistic. But if the fire is going strong, with hot ashes too, and I close the secondary, from the mid way point, nothing happens. I can't keep it lower than 800+ (with everything as closed as I can get it).
It is strange to me that I can, and have, put a "cold" fire out but I can't dim a hot one.
To me it is as if a weak fire doesn't have the power to draw air in but through the secondary and I can control it. But a more powerful fire is getting air elsewhere and when I close it, to the right, it just has another source established. I don't "know" this, it's just what I guess. 
So, I did go around the doors, with an incense stick with the fire going as well as where I thought the seams were. Naturally it is hard in the back, but it did pull particularly strong where the cut out is for the outside air intake, but otherwise I did not see it too much. It pulled some where the sides meet the bottom and front and a bit around the doors but I didn't think it was a lot. It pulled when it was close but not at all from say an inch. Thank you.


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## jatoxico (Mar 22, 2014)

js156 said:


> To me it is as if a weak fire doesn't have the power to draw air in but through the secondary and I can control it. But a more powerful fire is getting air elsewhere and when I close it, to the right, it just has another source established. I don't "know" this, it's just what I guess.



That's pretty close to the way I understand it. A weaker draft, which is normal when everything is cold, does not have the "power" to draw air in through the secondaries so when you shut the primary you can control the air more easily. Once things get heated the draft gets strong the "engine" of the system pulls air hard, pulling the remaining  air from the primaries and the secondaries which you typically cannot control (modern stoves can never be fully "turned off").

This is why it seems your system is having both a weak draft (at start up and cool reloads) and overdraft after its hot leading to possible overfire. Takes a little time to get to used to the nuances.

You deserve better from you installer for the poor workmanship but the truth is what you are experiencing isn't all that uncommon. A lot of installers throw the stove in and they're gone. Then it's up to the homeowner to figure it out. If it wasn't the case this forum might not exist. But thankfully it does, stick with it and you'll figure out what you need to do to get it right. Oh and did I say it's worth the effort?


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## begreen (Mar 22, 2014)

I'm not going to instruct because I haven't owned this stove (almost did, it was on my very short list). But I think there is some confusion on the air controls and what they do. There is no secondary air control that I know of, only a primary air control. Normally with a tube stove when you close off the primary air the suction of the draft then pulls the air through the secondary manifolds. It is not uncommon for this to increase secondary burn as described and for the stove temp to increase, particularly when one normally has very strong draft due to a tall chimney.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 23, 2014)

js156 said:


> Thank you for saying this. I don't know if there are indications of an over fire or not. The front door on the right closes flush with the door beside it at the top. So the architectural details are flat, or smooth, between the two doors.  But at the bottom the door on the right is out about 1/4" preventing it from being flat, or smooth, to the door on the left.
> My guess is it is manufactured this way for tension but I don't know this for sure nor have I compared it to the same stove elsewhere. If anyone would like to see if there's is the same way I would greatly appreciate it.
> I did tighten the allen screws around the glass and I do think that was very helpful in lowering the stove temps from 900+ to 800+ as that glass was ready to fall out.
> I am hesitant to install the damper, at this time, because I don't know where this will go and I don't want to there to be a damper there to blame for anything.
> Hopefully this will be worked out next season!


I don't understand your description of the doors. At this point all I can tell you is to do a dollar bill test on all gaskets. If a door is warped the test will fail there. If your stove is "overfiring" it's getting too much air by definition. Either you're giving it too much air (solution is obvious: turn it down) or gaskets leak (solution is obvious) or wind is increasing draft (solution raise chimney and install pipe damper) or all the above. If your gaskets are tight and air is on low and it still "overfires" then air is getting in there somewhere it should not, therefore it's a defective stove.

I also don't know how you define "primary" and "secondary" air. The pull knob on the right is startup air and should be closed after 15 minutes. The left to right control in the center is the main air control and should be full left on startup. This is in the manual.

You didn't answer my question about why you said it was overfired.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 23, 2014)

MattFoley772 said:


> I don't understand your description of the doors. At this point all I can tell you is to do a dollar bill test on all gaskets. If a door is warped the test will fail there. If your stove is "overfiring" it's getting too much air by definition. Either you're giving it too much air (solution is obvious: turn it down) or gaskets leak (solution is obvious) or wind is increasing draft (solution raise chimney and install pipe damper) or all the above. If your gaskets are tight and air is on low and it still "overfires" then air is getting in there somewhere it should not, therefore it's a defective stove.
> 
> I also don't know how you define "primary" and "secondary" air. The pull knob on the right is startup air and should be closed after 15 minutes. The left to right control in the center is the main air control and should be full left on startup. This is in the manual.
> 
> You didn't answer my question about why you said it was overfired.


Oh, and why are you so determined not to use a damper? I and others have explained why you should get one. The damper is like an emergency brake and will drastically reduce your burn rate no matter what else is wrong. There is absolutely no reason not to get one. I suppose you could argue that you shouldn't need one; if so I will counter that you shouldn't need a fire extinguisher, either.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 23, 2014)

MattFoley772 said:


> Oh, and why are you so determined not to use a damper? I and others have explained why you should get one. The damper is like an emergency brake and will drastically reduce your burn rate no matter what else is wrong. There is absolutely no reason not to get one. I suppose you could argue that you shouldn't need one; if so I will counter that you shouldn't need a fire extinguisher, either.


I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.


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## jatoxico (Mar 23, 2014)

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.


So some guy told you no damper on your set up and that's worth confusing the issue?  Sorry but if this particular install needs a damper it should get one.


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## js156 (Mar 23, 2014)

begreen said:


> I'm not going to instruct because I haven't owned this stove (almost did, it was on my very short list). But I think there is some confusion on the air controls and what they do. There is no secondary air control that I know of, only a primary air control. Normally with a tube stove when you close off the primary air the suction of the draft then pulls the air through the secondary manifolds. It is not uncommon for this to increase secondary burn as described and for the stove temp to increase, particularly when one normally has very strong draft due to a tall chimney.



I would think this is good news. I do have a primary air intake in the back that I push and pull to open and close when I start the fire and then a slide in the front, that I believe is referred to as the secondary to control the air intake once the fire gets established. Thanks.

I don't want to change this but I will add this note: I now know that I had the primary and the secondary wrong. The primary is the slide control. I previously thought that the slide control was the secondary.
The stove has a start up knob and a primary slide. Thank you for correcting me.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 23, 2014)

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.


This guy may need one. Idk. I'm not an installer. But they (union journeyman sheetmetal workers and tenors...who have some fireplace master certificate) told me no. Don't run a damper. I'm getting 11+ hours on loads of oak, hedge and BL with sustained 450-550 for 9+. I'll take that. Better than my last stove that had a 30 pound damper and I was lucky to get 8 hours with twice the wood.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 23, 2014)

js156 said:


> I would think this is good news. I do have a primary air intake in the back that I push and pull to open and close when I start the fire and then a slide in the front, that I believe is referred to as the secondary to control the air intake once the fire gets established. Thanks.


The knob you push in is your start up air. The lever under the ash lip...is your primary.


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## js156 (Mar 23, 2014)

MattFoley772 said:


> I don't understand your description of the doors. At this point all I can tell you is to do a dollar bill test on all gaskets. If a door is warped the test will fail there. If your stove is "overfiring" it's getting too much air by definition. Either you're giving it too much air (solution is obvious: turn it down) or gaskets leak (solution is obvious) or wind is increasing draft (solution raise chimney and install pipe damper) or all the above. If your gaskets are tight and air is on low and it still "overfires" then air is getting in there somewhere it should not, therefore it's a defective stove.
> 
> I also don't know how you define "primary" and "secondary" air. The pull knob on the right is startup air and should be closed after 15 minutes. The left to right control in the center is the main air control and should be full left on startup. This is in the manual.
> 
> You didn't answer my question about why you said it was overfired.



First things first I want to answer your question. I thought it was overfired by the mere fact that was reaching 909 degrees +/-. 
The manual says that if there is evidence of overfiring then my warranty is void. If the stove doesn't have, or wouldn't get, deterioration of its interior components (from maybe five of these burns before I knew what was going on) then that is good news.
The dollar bill test fails everywhere. The mechanic that came out said believing that test was stupid. (I am not, I just couldn't get him to address it)
Lastly, I made a mistake in calling the primary the secondary. From now on, I will call the slide control what it is, the primary. Thank you.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 23, 2014)

js156 said:


> First things first I want to answer your question. I thought it was overfired by the mere fact that was reaching 909 degrees +/-.
> The manual says that if there is evidence of overfiring then my warranty is void. If the stove doesn't have, or wouldn't get, deterioration of its interior components (from maybe five of these burns before I knew what was going on) then that is good news.
> The dollar bill test fails everywhere. The mechanic that came out said believing that test was stupid. (I am not, I just couldn't get him to address it)
> Lastly, I made a mistake in calling the primary the secondary. From now on, I will call the slide control what it is, the primary. Thank you.


Lol. I was just giving a reference. There's PLENRTY of people on here who will overreact about that and be like "I NOT KNOW WHAT THAT MEAN!?!?!?!?!?!?" and have a nervous breakdown. 

I "corrected" that...only so you didn't get yelled at later. Lol.


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## js156 (Mar 23, 2014)

I don't have expertise on a damper but if it is determined that I need one then I need one. Kobeman (page one) mentioned having that along with a manometer. It seems scientific enough. Perhaps that and a taller chimney will fix my issues for me. Plus maybe new gaskets around the doors. Now I just need the installers to finish their job.
Once I touch it, it is my job and my liability should anything go wrong and I do not want to do that.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Mar 23, 2014)

I think the start up air...you're only supposed to use for a few minutes and on reloads. Which, again I'm running your stove and just as new. On reloads I don't even use the start up air. 

Check your ash pan door. Theres a little nut and tab. When my installers came it was lose.


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## js156 (Mar 23, 2014)

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> I own a Quad IR. And was specifically told NO DAMPER. That the refractory door was ample with the primary air shut off.



The service guy who came out to replace the ash pan gasket basically said the same thing. He said he doesn't like them and that they are for leaky, overfired stoves that have wavy tops. I would prefer to only need the primary but if I need one I need one.


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## begreen (Mar 23, 2014)

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> This guy may need one. Idk. I'm not an installer. But they (union journeyman sheetmetal workers and tenors...who have some fireplace master certificate) told me no. Don't run a damper. I'm getting 11+ hours on loads of oak, hedge and BL with sustained 450-550 for 9+. I'll take that. Better than my last stove that had a 30 pound damper and I was lucky to get 8 hours with twice the wood.



Normally the stove would not need a damper, but every installation is unique. The home, flue length, outdoor weather, stove and flue location all affect stove operation. If the installation is within normal parameters the stove may perform exactly as advertised when burning good wood. But start pushing on some of these factors with high wind gusts, poor flue location, tall chimney, poor dealer prep and the stove may not behave entirely as predicted. Add a new user and this can be a hard learning experience. A pipe damper will increase control and will allow the flue to be increased to its proper height. When draft is very strong there are really only a few solutions. Restricting it with a key damper is one of the simplest.

js156, you may find this article helpful.
http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm


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## begreen (Mar 23, 2014)

js156 said:


> The service guy who came out to replace the ash pan gasket basically said the same thing. He said he doesn't like them and that they are for leaky, overfired stoves that have wavy tops. I would prefer to only need the primary but if I need one I need one.



Is this the same guy that didn't know how to properly tighten the glass screws?


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## Kobeman (Mar 23, 2014)

Put a Damper In, If you don't need it than great, but the first time you get hellish winds and she's sucking like a hoover, you will be thankful when you can just turn it a bit to simmer her down.  When I first got mine I thought it was burning too quick, had the tech out, he found nothing wrong with the stove and said my chimney was just too damn good. My draft measurements confirm this.  I can tell what the temperature is doing outside by where my key damper is set.  Warms up i dont have to turn it so much.  I use the manometer to confirm my settings but I am learning how to set it by looking at the fire.


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## Kobeman (Mar 23, 2014)

I'll post how I run mine in case anyone cares,  Disclaimer, this is how I run MY setup, yours will certainly vary.  Cold start, slide to the left, startup knob pushed in, key damper open full, lay in a layer of wood, 1/4 super cedar light it and fill the box up full, sweep up my mess and close doors.  5 minutes or so box is full of rolling fire, pull startup knob fully out.  Stovetop reaching 300 or so flue reaching 700, close key 1/8 to keep flue in check.  Stove top reaching or slightly over 500 , move slide to right 1/2 way (i put lil paint tics on ash lip so I know at a glance where it is at) Stovetop 550ish close slide to 3/4 closed turn on blower, flue will be 800-900.  Stovetop 575 -600 with blower going, move slide full right closed. Flue temp will start to fall, recheck flue 15 mins or so later and close key damper a titch more to bring flue temp down to around 650-700.  I've found If I close key to far and flue temp gets below 600 my secondaries start to lack so I bump the key open a titch more.  Temperatures are with a condar stovetop set slightly to the right of center of griddle and a condar probe about 18" up, They are close enough readings for me Once I get this all set I can check the draft and it is usualy .04-.06 which is what the book calls for and I feel happy I'm right on,.


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## Chuck the Canuck (Mar 24, 2014)

Kobeman said:


> I'll post how I run mine in case anyone cares,  Disclaimer, this is how I run MY setup, yours will certainly vary.  Cold start, slide to the left, startup knob pushed in, key damper open full, lay in a layer of wood, 1/4 super cedar light it and fill the box up full, sweep up my mess and close doors.  5 minutes or so box is full of rolling fire, pull startup knob fully out.  Stovetop reaching 300 or so flue reaching 700, close key 1/8 to keep flue in check.  Stove top reaching or slightly over 500 , move slide to right 1/2 way (i put lil paint tics on ash lip so I know at a glance where it is at) Stovetop 550ish close slide to 3/4 closed turn on blower, flue will be 800-900.  Stovetop 575 -600 with blower going, move slide full right closed. Flue temp will start to fall, recheck flue 15 mins or so later and close key damper a titch more to bring flue temp down to around 650-700.  I've found If I close key to far and flue temp gets below 600 my secondaries start to lack so I bump the key open a titch more.  Temperatures are with a condar stovetop set slightly to the right of center of griddle and a condar probe about 18" up, They are close enough readings for me Once I get this all set I can check the draft and it is usualy .04-.06 which is what the book calls for and I feel happy I'm right on,.



I don't have the Isle Royale, but I just want to say that I really appreciate how people here take the time and effort to walk us newbies step by step through start up procedures in order to help us fix problems we're having.  That's why this forum is number one on my reading list each and every time I sit at a computer, whether I'm at home or at work!


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## northwinds (Mar 24, 2014)

With this matter in credit card dispute territory, I'm not sure there is much we can do here.  Are you even running the stove anymore, JS?


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 24, 2014)

js156 said:


> First things first I want to answer your question. I thought it was overfired by the mere fact that was reaching 909 degrees +/-.
> The manual says that if there is evidence of overfiring then my warranty is void. If the stove doesn't have, or wouldn't get, deterioration of its interior components (from maybe five of these burns before I knew what was going on) then that is good news.
> The dollar bill test fails everywhere. The mechanic that came out said believing that test was stupid. (I am not, I just couldn't get him to address it)
> Lastly, I made a mistake in calling the primary the secondary. From now on, I will call the slide control what it is, the primary. Thank you.


You said "the dollar bill test fails everywhere." Congratulations! You've identified the source of your hot burns.

Assuming everything you've said is true, the dealer is liable since it's a new stove AND since it was serviced and is STILL leaking at the gaskets. 

I have not read a single compelling reason not to install a damper. I have read several compelling reasons to install it. Your call.

I will check back in a few weeks to see how you and dealer solved the problems.


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## js156 (Mar 24, 2014)

I have not heard a peep from the dealer as of yet.
Here is a picture of my door. If anyone can tell me if this looks out of ordinary or about what theirs looks like I'd appreciate it. It closes as I would expect at the top but the bottom less so.
Also, some time ago I was outside and noticed ash on the top of the snow. I don't know what to make of that.
Naturally with both of the issues I am worried about my previous overfires being the cause for both. Thanks.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 27, 2014)

js156 said:


> I have not heard a peep from the dealer as of yet.
> Here is a picture of my door. If anyone can tell me if this looks out of ordinary or about what theirs looks like I'd appreciate it. It closes as I would expect at the top but the bottom less so.
> Also, some time ago I was outside and noticed ash on the top of the snow. I don't know what to make of that.
> Naturally with both of the issues I am worried about my previous overfires being the cause for both. Thanks.
> ...


Hard to tell if something's wrong with doors from pics. I wonder if serviceman used correct size gasket; sizes are in manual. Wrong size could cause leaks.


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## Jags (Mar 28, 2014)

Those door gaps are maybe a little more than mine, buy I have had years of squish on the gasket to bring them in line.  I don't really think its and issue.  The right door overlaps the left with a pliable material in between (gasket).  It could/would be pretty difficult to make that perfect.


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## js156 (Apr 1, 2014)

To my surprise it seems as though the Tee Support Bracket can be installed above the Tee.
http://www.duravent.com/docs/product/DuraTech_2011cat_web.pdf   (Page 13)
Nothing else going on as of yet.


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## begreen (Apr 1, 2014)

Can't see this from the picture posted. Is the chimney DuraTech and is there a clamping band on the top of the bracket? Or is it a simple support bracket like Warm in NH posted?


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## js156 (May 29, 2014)

Well, my dispute with the credit card is on going and has yet to be resolved but I have a question as to the cap on my Tee. I can't get it off to look inside the chimney. I have tried to turn it as the arrows on it tell me to but it won't turn. I have tried to pull it down but it doesn't even budge. If I continued, I would pull the handle right off of it. I have even used the claw of a hammer to try to pry it off but no luck.
Is this common? If not why is it happening to me?
Thank you all very much.


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## webby3650 (May 29, 2014)

It's Hard to tell but in the pic it kinda looks like there is silicone in there. I could just be dented up a bit from the hammer? 
They can be tough to remove sometimes.
 Also make sure that there is no screw in it anywhere.


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## js156 (May 30, 2014)

That's good. I was concerned that with the stove overfiring that maybe the chimney got damaged. One less thing to be concerned about. Maybe if I spray it with some WD40 it will come off.
Thanks


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## webby3650 (May 30, 2014)

Ya, we use WD40 on stubborn slips pretty often. It works very well!


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Oct 8, 2014)

What's the final verdict?


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## Kobeman (Oct 9, 2014)

I too am curious what was found


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## js156 (Oct 9, 2014)

Thank you for asking!
Chase bank basically said that disputes about the quality of goods and services are not billing errors, so the dispute procedure does not apply. I did not expect this. 
What I also did not expect was that Quadrafire would listen to my problems. They did and they told me to expect a call from a rep in about two weeks.
Now their coming out isn't necessarily a fix but...we'll see.
I haven't touched a thing on the stove myself. I know people have told me to put in a damper and to hook up manometer but so far I'm leaving it the way it was installed. It makes it harder for someone to blame me. When the rep comes out, this is what I got and how it was installed. Lousy.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Oct 9, 2014)

js156 said:


> Thank you for asking!
> Chase bank basically said that disputes about the quality of goods and services are not billing errors, so the dispute procedure does not apply. I did not expect this.
> What I also did not expect was that Quadrafire would listen to my problems. They did and they told me to expect a call from a rep in about two weeks.
> Now their coming out isn't necessarily a fix but...we'll see.
> I haven't touched a thing on the stove myself. I know people have told me to put in a damper and to hook up manometer but so far I'm leaving it the way it was installed. It makes it harder for someone to blame me. When the rep comes out, this is what I got and how it was installed. Lousy.


Thanks for the update. I can sympathize with your situation. But not completely, Ive spent money on stuff before but not that much and been screwed. I'd be irate. 

I know a builder in my area, that burns both and OWB and a stove. He installs stoves as well. Too bad he's not closer to you. He does great work and is an honest man. Not the fastest, but kills it in the quality and knowledge department.


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## js156 (Nov 1, 2014)

Thank you all for your concern and continued help. I have to move on!
I have a chimney damper coming as well as 48" ss chimney pipe, to get my chimney up to 2 feet above my roof within 10 feet, but my question is with the chimney damper.
How will I know how closed to keep it? Should I use a chimney pipe thermometer having a stem or should I use a manometer attached to the chimney? Or a combination?
I'm looking for something simple and efficient I guess. Thank you!


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## js156 (Nov 18, 2014)

Hello all,
I have installed another 3 feet of chimney pipe outside to help reduce the downdrafts and it has worked well so far.
Also, on the inside, I configured these 5 parts to control the draft. I had a challenging time finding the parts I needed so if you should see others with this same problem (moderators) please feel free to direct them here. 
I have only had this operational for a day and I am surprised that my stove has reached 700 with maybe 3 logs in it. Just so there isn't anything wrong with the stove itself.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009PAR5WW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001AH5BEW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BLVALFQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009PAN3C8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-BM00...UTF8&qid=1416321235&sr=1-12&keywords=6+damper

and high temp black spray paint if you are inclined

Special thanks to those here who introduced me to a damper.


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## Chuck the Canuck (Nov 18, 2014)

Hi again there js.  I've followed your struggles right from the beginning, and I'm really glad that you stuck things out!  I think everybody struggles a bit when the start out burning in these new stoves, but man oh man, you had the tenacity to overcome a monumental struggle.  Right on!  Now I'd really love to see some pics of your new stove set up with the manometer and damper.....


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## js156 (Nov 18, 2014)

Hi Chuck!
I just took a picture of my set up. It was easy once I had the parts and I hope when the next person comes down the pike it will help them out too. If they order expedited shipping they could have them all in a week. The hardest part for me to find was the mini barb connector but eventually I found it.
With the static pressure tip, (part 1) I did cut off the bent area and now have the open tube going into the chimney 6 inches above the stove (as per the manual) because I thought the 4 tiny vent holes would clog with soot quickly.
The plastic tube connecting the mini barb to the manometer came with the manometer kit.
Have a good day!

I just noticed that my damper is not showing up on the picture. I have that at 13 inches above the stove. I also changed the pipe on the inside of the house from double wall to single wall; I have the clearance.


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## Chuck the Canuck (Nov 18, 2014)

That looks pretty cool js.  I hope it helps you control the stove.  Stay warm!


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## northwinds (Nov 18, 2014)

Hopefully, you can use the modifications to your advantage the way that kobeman outlined in this thread.  You've got a lot of chimney. That means a lot of draft when temps get cold outside.


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## js156 (Nov 18, 2014)

I did just read kobemans post on page 4 one more time and will revisit that while it is becoming habit. 
With my damper closed my manometer is now reading .07. To help get this number low I think I will be buying some fire proof caulk to close up the 4 holes that go through my damper. I guess this is because my chimney is 24' high outside plus 4' inside? Right now it is 25 degrees outside. (toasty inside though  )
I thought I wouldn't need a stove pipe thermometer since I have a manometer but I guess that is not the case. I will get one. Thanks Kobeman.


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## brad wilton (Nov 18, 2014)

try heating chimeny with newspaper before lighting,tried onetime onetime with cold stove smoke started coming out from almost every crack lit the paper no smoke except up chimeny


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## Kobeman (Nov 18, 2014)

I'm glad you're up and running! My stove likes to run hot, 650-700 is common. I've got better wood this year and she really gets ripping, single digits out lately so Ive had to run the key fully closed. My key damper has a fairly large gap between it and the pipe plus the holes in it, I'm thinking of getting a 8" one and triming it with the plasma for a more custom fit and still have the holes in it for safety, this should give me some "reserve" control, I'll add that draft with this seasoned walnut is pulling  about .07 with it closed. Sure is an easy breather!


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## ekg0477 (Nov 18, 2014)

Curious to find out the installer name. I have a insert on order for 11/28 install, hoping it's not the same company.


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## js156 (Nov 19, 2014)

The installer is Wood Heat.
I am actually more concerned today than before. The wall behind the stove reached 191 degrees last night. the stove top reached 798. That is too hot for my comfort zone. I have two friends who's house burnt down because of a wood stove and I have four young kids at home 9 and under. Last night I didn't go to sleep until the wall temp dropped to 165.
This is bad. I am suppose to be sitting in front of it with a glass of wine and instead I'm there with an infrared thermometer until I can let myself fall asleep.
For starters, I have to go back to an insulated pipe. But I shouldn't have too.
My stove does operate with a fairly quiet whistling sound. I'm curious if I have a leak or if it's normal for the stove. I'm just trying to figure out what is going on with my stove.
As always, thank you guys, and gals, for your continued help. Lord knows this is getting old.

Oh, and my manometer was reading about .10


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## ekg0477 (Nov 19, 2014)

Thanks for letting me know who the installer was. I have heard of them but its all been good things. I can't offer much in the way of help as I am new to wood burning stoves and inserts.

I am using a different installer for my Jotul 550 (EE Chimney Sweeps)


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## Jags (Nov 19, 2014)

The only whistle I have ever heard is when I try to really clamp it down on a ripping stove.  I believe the whistle is coming from the primary air hole.  This is rare for me.


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## Kobeman (Nov 19, 2014)

Mine whistles thru the small hole in the primary slider when my draft is high, were the secondaries really rolling? When they get going it sucks air in due to the unregulated secondary air. Stay with it, I know the frustration, try shutting the pipe damper sooner to keep the secondaries from building up, it's like a train, once you get momentum it's a lot harder to slow it down


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## Kobeman (Nov 19, 2014)

Also can you hold your hand on the wall? If so I think your ok, search on here lots of folks concerned about it before. Double check your clearances for piece of mind.


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## js156 (Nov 19, 2014)

Kobeman, There is no way I can keep my hand on the wall. 191 is too hot. Water boils at 212 to put it in perspective.
Mine whistles when my draft is at .08. It just whistles all the time. But when I adjust the slide the flame will sometimes extinguish so I may not have a leak either. But having said that, I could not lower my stove temp last night; I had to wait for it to go down as the wood burned all while I searched for something non flammable to put between the stove and the wall, to no avail.
This morning my wife said she wants window rope ladders installed and we discussed where to meet outside in case of a house fire (seriously). My oil fired boiler never looked so good.

I just checked my email...I sent Quad the video I shot last night (you know me and videos) and they want to contact Wood Heat to come out. I wonder why Wood Heat never contacted me when I sent them the video of my smoke alarms going off and my house filled with smoke? I guess it's harder for them to blow off Quad. What jerks.


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## Kobeman (Nov 19, 2014)

If you can put the flame out than I don't think its a leak, when in a panic you could cover the big round hole under the back under the blower, this will cut some air to the secondaries and stop the freight train


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## js156 (Nov 19, 2014)

Kobeman, I'm thinking about that putting the flame out comment I made and I am realizing that when I am starting the fire I can put it out by sliding the primary to the right. But when the fire box was filled up for the night, as it was last night, I couldn't do a dam thing as the primary was already all the way to right and my damper was completely closed and my draft was.1. It was during this, as you know, I got that 190 plus wall reading. I don't have it figured out. But I am not burning it tonight!


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## Kobeman (Nov 19, 2014)

I'm playing around with covering the hole where the OAK would attatch tonight, I got it covered with tin foil and I cant say it has made much difference, there are lots of places for it to pull air under there. I'm glad you have Quad's attention and I will be waiting to hear what they come up with.


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## js156 (Dec 2, 2014)

Quad fizzled out. They simply never got back to me. Naturally, I'll never recommend them. Anybody who doesn't get back to you when you have a 193 degree wall is in a class by themselves.


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## Jags (Dec 3, 2014)

Some manufacturers handle customers personally, some by dealers.  Quad is pretty well known to go through their dealer networks.  Its akin to having a problem with your pickup truck and calling Ford directly - they will point you to your dealer.


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## northwinds (Dec 3, 2014)

What's the dealer doing for you?

The wall temps mystify me.  You have the clearances required by the stove?  I've never had a problem with the Isle Royale creating hot walls.  Are you sure your thermometer is working right?  I've been looking at the videos you posted with the high stovetop temps, and it just doesn't look the inside of my stove when the stovetop gets to 700...let alone above that.  There's a lot of active flame in that video.  Usually when the stove takes off, it's massive secondaries creating the heat.

Where are you taking the wall readings?  Directly behind my stove (closer to the floor), it doesn't even really get warm on the wall.  It's the pipe throwing off most of the heat in my setup.


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## js156 (Dec 3, 2014)

Northwinds.
Thank you very much for your interest. I don't know what is going on. I have ordered 1" wall spacers from Amazon and plan on either using them with a sheet of 5/8" fire code drywall and painting it to match my walls or re-installing the insulated chimney pipe. I don't know if there is a way that is thought of as the way to go.  But I'll do one thing or the other.
At this time I'm just keeping the fire small by only having 3 or 4 logs at most.
The high temps were had when I filled the fire box for an overnight burn. I never do that again!
Once my fire gets going I just can't slow it down. But, when it is being started and it is a small fire and I close the primary I can put it out.
Well, at least now I can. I went to the hardware store and bought two 1/4" bolts and one 5/16" bolt in my own attempt to slow the air into this thing.
In case you don't know, the primary lets air into the firebox via three holes. The two on the sides are 1/4" and the one in the center is 3/8".
I have already tightened the hinges and the glass. The ash pan looks okay, I actually used a grinder carefully on the griddle because I wasn't sure if the "lip" that was touching the porcelain was preventing the gasket from sealing the griddle correctly. I don't think it made a difference as far as closing tighter with that lip gone. I'm keeping my manometer at .05 (which helps before it was at .08. I don't know what else to do.
Yes it is 15" away from the wall with a single wall chimney. The high reading, yes I have another video if you want to see it, was taken maybe two feet above the stove. I do believe the infrared temp gun to be accurate it is usually right there with my stove top thermometer and there is no way I could touch that wall.
I was really, really scared. I stayed up that night until the fire died off and realized that my families fire evacuation plan was faulty. Meeting at the shed is a bad idea on cold nights. None of us are dressed for that kind of cold and we wouldn't have time to dress either, naturally. Fortunately, we have a barn with a heated room so that is what I had the pleasure of thinking about that night. And Quad tells me to go to hell, basically, after I send them the video. As far as Ford, Jags, it reminds me of Firestone. Sometimes the manufacturer has to step up to the plate and take responsibility before somebody dies.
As far as where is the dealer at Northwinds, after I sent my dealer the pictures and videos of my house filling up with smoke, because the chimney was three and a half feet too short, they never, ever returned my calls. Then, when I opened my credit card dispute to get their attention I think it sealed the deal there. Ultimately, my dispute just expired. I fixed the chimney myself and they got paid in full. Any stove issue was never resolved nor did they call to make an appointment to inspect it, come to think of it. You have got me. I was warned about them doing poor work and being underhanded but I, for some reason, thought how bad can they be? They had the product that, at the time, I wanted though too.


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## Hoozie (Dec 3, 2014)

js156 said:


> Yes it is 15" away from the wall with a single wall chimney.



I thought single wall clearance was 18" minimum?


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## Jags (Dec 3, 2014)

Hoozie said:


> I thought single wall clearance was 18" minimum?



The documentation actually confuses me a bit.  According to the manual if installing flat against a wall the pipe needs to be 15" for single wall and is reduced to 13" for double wall - YET...if corner loaded, single wall needs 28" and double wall reduces it to 12".

Page 10
http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/250_5763.pdf

Most other stoves of that size (say the PE Summit or the F600) has a higher clearance requirement.  Ultimately that would probably be my solution if inclined to use single wall pipe.  I would move the stove out some more.  Me personally - I went with double wall to eliminate the issue all together.


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## begreen (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm pretty sure that in this case the pipe manufacturer's clearance requirement trumps the stove. Single-wall must be 18" or more. You could add pipe shielding or replace the connector with double-wall stove pipe.


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## Jags (Dec 3, 2014)

begreen said:


> I'm pretty sure that in this case the pipe manufacturer's clearance requirement trumps the stove. Single-wall must be 18" or more.



I am in full agreement with you and have even contacted Quad to confirm or deny their published numbers.  They confirmed them as correct but I am still weary of the 15" clearance for single wall.  The math doesn't really work if you look at the other published numbers.


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## js156 (Dec 3, 2014)

On page ten of the manual I am reading letters a and b for single wall pipe clearances at the back of the stove. (Thank you though)


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## Jags (Dec 3, 2014)

js156 said:


> On page ten of the manual I am reading letters a and b for single wall pipe clearances at the back of the stove. (Thank you though)



Understood - and that is what BG and I are posting about.  I am simply not comfortable with the published 15" clearance - even with the blessings of Quad.  And to BG's point - the pipe manufacturer states min of 18".  I believe the manufacturer of the product (pipe) should trump the stoves numbers.  Simply my opinion.


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## begreen (Dec 3, 2014)

Usually when speccing out any system of combined components you design for the weakest part. There are a lot of stoves that have clearances as close as 5-6", but with a single-wall pipe on the stove the pipe becomes the gating factor as soon as it leaves the stove. The stove mfg. has no say so about that clearance. They can only spec for the stove.


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## northwinds (Dec 3, 2014)

js156 said:


> On page ten of the manual I am reading letters a and b for single wall pipe clearances at the back of the stove. (Thank you though)



I'm just thinking out loud here based upon my review of the manual. 

Look at letter "a."  It says that's the distance from combustibles to the inside diameter of the flue collar.  Look at "h".  That's the pipe itself.  For 'h", the distance is 18". 

The bottom line is your wall is way too hot if your thermometer is accurate.  I would be doing something to fix that. 

I've got a corner installation, and double wall pipe, so my situation is different and cooler (temps) than yours.


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## Jags (Dec 3, 2014)

"H" is actually the clearance needed from the pipe to the ceiling.


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## northwinds (Dec 3, 2014)

Jags said:


> "H" is actually the clearance needed from the pipe to the ceiling.



Yes, but that's the only clearance listed that I found that is from the pipe to a combustible.  It's also consistent with the 18" minimum from single wall to combustibles.


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## Kobeman (Dec 3, 2014)

Are you referring to the air holes in the doghouse plugging with bolts?, not sure that will help because I believe the primary air also washes the glass, not 100% on this tho.  I think easiest solution to the wall temps is to go to double wall connector, that's what im running.


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## Kobeman (Dec 3, 2014)

What are your stack temps?  I agree with Northwinds ,I watched the clip, looks like the start up air  isn't closing or the front air slide isn't shutting, that flame is what mine looks like with air open . If it is open then this would make since-High flue temps causing your wall to get hot due to the short clearance. I think I'd find a different dealer, or if going it alone I'd pull the cover off the start up air assy on the back and make sure everything is status quo


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## js156 (Dec 4, 2014)

Thank you all very much for your input. Although I initially wanted to gather the heat from the single wall pipe but I will put the insulated pipe back on.
Kobeman, when the service rep from the dealer was out he did look at that and I saw the steel "slide" go over the steel of the stove but I know what you mean. I'm also fairly certain that he put it back together with silicone; it wasn't fire caulk. Even with the 1/4" bolts in the 1/4" holes and the 5/16" bolt in the 3/8" hole I can still have a full fire. I don't know where it is getting the air. 
This video clip is short but it shows my fire burning with the bolts in the holes - I don't know if they are the doghouse holes but I'm guessing that they are. 
The logs are one layer high and I guess 3 or 4 deep. It's burning good but I can't slow it any, which I wish I could when it pins the temperature gauge. I think the option of a longer slower burn has many benefits. The primary and secondary are closed and the manometer read .08.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/15755070060/

You can click on the video and that will pause it. Again, thank you for your help.


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## js156 (Dec 30, 2014)

What do you think? Is 725-750 too much with the draft at -.05 and the primary and secondary closed?
I did double check the tempurature gauges readings with my infrared thermometer and the readings are the same.
Happy new year and Merry Christmas!


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## Jags (Dec 30, 2014)

I don't have a manometer so I can't respond to the readings other than temp.  725-750 is getting on the high side for sustained temps.  The stove can handle it, but I don't think I would run it like that as a constant.  I can see premature failure of internal components like the burn tubes or the angle iron holding the back bricks in, etc.


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## js156 (Dec 30, 2014)

Thank you Jags. If I should not run it like that constantly and I can't turn it down what do I need to do to get this to burn lower, and I guess ultimately, slower? (In your opinion) Thanks!


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## Jags (Dec 30, 2014)

In my opinion - I would be looking at trying to keep the stove at less than 700F for a constant run.  Fire requires three components (as I am sure you know): The obvious ones to control is Fuel and Oxygen.  I would start with oxygen.  The IR is a known easy breathing stove.  I would be looking at methods to make it take harder breaths.


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## northwinds (Dec 30, 2014)

The normal way to make it take harder breaths is to turn the air down.  But the Isle Royale is only one part of a system--your chimney being
the other part.  Other people with really long chimneys have also had trouble keeping temps lower.  Hopefully, you will figure out a cycle
that works for you, which would probably include using your damper, closing the secondary soon in the burning cycle, using big splits
packed closely together, raking the coal bed forward at reload time so that the fire catches in the front first and moves to the back during the
cycle. You're going to have to figure out what works for you.  Temps in the 700's are certainly better than the 800's, but most of us try to shoot
for 650-675 for peak burning temps.  I rarely hit 700 unless I'm lax in turning the air down early enough in the cycle.


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## js156 (Dec 30, 2014)

Northwinds thank you too for the reply. 
I have a question  regarding chimney height, does the height of the chimney matter (within reason) if the draft pressure is set to -.05? Naturally I use the manometer and the damper to achieve this. My manual does read that during the burn I should have it higher at -.10. But doing that will only raise my temps and shorten my already short burn times. Although, on the plus side I'm sure my glass would not get covered in black as the air wash would then work.
I'm not sure if this is already clear so I just want to say, I can burn my stove hotter then 725-750 but this is just the lowest I have been able to burn it.
Not all of the time but I'd say at least 90 percent of the time the stove burns starting from the rear right corner, for what its worth. The picture I have posted is typical.
I would think I should be able to turn the stove down from 725-750 if I wanted to, right?
Thank you.


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## northwinds (Dec 30, 2014)

js156 said:


> Northwinds thank you too for the reply.
> I have a question  regarding chimney height, does the height of the chimney matter (within reason) if the draft pressure is set to -.05? Naturally I use the manometer and the damper to achieve this. My manual does read that during the burn I should have it higher at -.10. But doing that will only raise my temps and shorten my already short burn times. Although, on the plus side I'm sure my glass would not get covered in black as the air wash would then work.
> I'm not sure if this is already clear so I just want to say, I can burn my stove hotter then 725-750 but this is just the lowest I have been able to burn it.
> Not all of the time but I'd say at least 90 percent of the time the stove burns starting from the rear right corner, for what its worth. The picture I have posted is typical.
> ...



Actually, no.  Stoves don't work like gas burners where you can just turn it down.  The key is to keep it from getting that high in the first place by reducing the air way before it gets to 725. 

If you have truly been vigilant about reducing the primary air, the Isle Royale has done all that it can do in terms of control. The rest is up to you and your chimney system.  

Everyone has a unique setup to some degree.  My Isle Royale doesn't operate anything like yours.  The air controls are very responsive so long as I'm under 700 degrees.  My "sweet spot", where the stove runs best, is 90-95% totally closed.  Most of my fires top out at 650.  This isn't because my Isle Royale is different than yours.  It's because my system(which includes my chimney, house, roof line, basement stove location, stove operation, split sizes, firewood moisture) is different than yours.  Each of those variables changes the outcome, much in the way that changing an ingredient will result in a recipe coming out differently.  Most of us have to putter around to figure out how the right combination for the best outcome.  It isn't as simple as turning down the thermostat.


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## Ash (Dec 30, 2014)

js156 said:


> I would think I should be able to turn the stove down from 725-750 if I wanted to, right?
> Thank you.


No. On most stoves including the isle royale you will not be able to lower the temperature once it reaches that point, in fact many times it will continue to rise.


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## js156 (Dec 30, 2014)

Ash, thank you for the reply.
How do I keep the stove from reaching these high tempuratures in the first place? I am already keeping my draft at half what the manual requests for burning which is -.10 and it just keeps on overfiring. Naturally at -.10 it would burn even more hot and more fast. Both my primary and secondary are rarely, rarely used. If I do use either of them I never leave the stove with them open. If I need to get my stove burning I just open the damper. This raises the draft to usually around -.10, maybe -.13, and when it gets established I close it back to -.05. 
Right now for example I just got in and had to restart the fire from this morning. The fire initially wasn't going well so I opened the damper (air controls closed) my manometer read .09. My stove top temp was 250. Since the fire picked up I closed the damper to .05 on my manometer. This will not stop the stove from reaching 725/750 once it gets going.
Thank you.


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2014)

How tall is the chimney on this stove? It may need a key damper. How thick are the splits that it is burning and what species wood? Is the startup air control closed and off?


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## js156 (Dec 30, 2014)

Begreen, I do have a key damper installed and the primaries and secondaries are rarely used. If I need to get my fire going I just open my pipe damper as I said in the post just above yours. I get my wood from the same dealer as my neighbor and his stove, a Jotul, acts nothing like mine. Thank you


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2014)

.1 is strong draft, especially with a key damper fully closed. That may be the issue. The IR is an easy breathing stove.


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## northwinds (Dec 30, 2014)

If I recall correctly, his chimney is 27 feet high.  Another post indicated that he added another 3 feet to meet the roofline rule.  
30 foot of chimney plus easy-breathing stove= perfect storm for overdraft.


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## js156 (Dec 30, 2014)

My manual reads that I should burn it at -.10. But as I said, today (please see my post at 3:27) with the damper open my manometer read -.09. I closed my damper somewhat to burn it at -.05 and it still overfires. thank you!


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## Ash (Dec 30, 2014)

js156 said:


> Ash, thank you for the reply.
> How do I keep the stove from reaching these high tempuratures in the first place? I am already keeping my draft at half what the manual requests for burning which is -.10 and it just keeps on overfiring. Naturally at -.10 it would burn even more hot and more fast. Both my primary and secondary are rarely, rarely used. If I do use either of them I never leave the stove with them open. If I need to get my stove burning I just open the damper. This raises the draft to usually around -.10, maybe -.13, and when it gets established I close it back to -.05.
> Right now for example I just got in and had to restart the fire from this morning. The fire initially wasn't going well so I opened the damper (air controls closed) my manometer read .09. My stove top temp was 250. Since the fire picked up I closed the damper to .05 on my manometer. This will not stop the stove from reaching 725/750 once it gets going.
> Thank you.


Js, the isle royale only has a primary air control and start up air control, no secondary control. I rarely if ever use the start up air. I keep the primary open until stove top reaches about 450 then start shutting it down. I have it fully closed at about 575 to 600 and stove will rise to about 650 or 700 and settle in there. With a full bed of coals I may close it up sooner and quicker. I can't speak to draft numbers as I have no experience with them.


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## Kobeman (Dec 30, 2014)

For what its worth My Inferno stove top gauge reads 50 -75 deg high and I level out about where yours is in the pic so I guess it runs around 675- 700.  My pipe doesnt run redlined tho I can keep it at arounf 700 as well. I've got the big round hole underneath covered halfway with tinfoil and magnets, not dure if it affects it much as there are alot of gaps underthere for air to get in but if your key is closed, slider is closed, I'd try to cover that hole.  I follow these post close as I try to gain knowelge from other owners on here, I see Isle Royale in the subject and get all pumped up!!


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## Kobeman (Dec 30, 2014)

Also, the paper clip trick I lernt about on here works great!  Puts my mind at ease when I come home from work and can see it didnt climb out, also  makes it easier to see when it levels out.


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## northwinds (Dec 30, 2014)

Js,

Is there another Quad dealer in your area who can check out the system and show you how to start  and maintain a safe fire?


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## js156 (Dec 30, 2014)

Thank you to everyone, I am most grateful for the help.
Kobe, you'll have to tell me about the paperclip! Also, I calibrated/adjusted my tempurature gauges by using a needlenose pliers and turning the chrome rivet in the center until the needle matched my infrared gun. It takes a couple of tries but it can be done.
Northwinds, I did contact a couple of dealers in my area to see if they had an Isle Royale fired up so I could see what tempuratures it operates. Although I didn't find that I did speak with someone who previously had it burning but just stopped this year to burn another model. I did ask him about burn temps and times and his information was a lot different than the recent posts here. He said that on his 26 foot chimney he never needed a pipe damper and could adjust the primary to keep the surface temp at 400 degrees. His claimed burn times were much better than mine; understandably. Mine are short and hot. My burns are too rapid for my liking and my house of about 2900 sf gets too hot for my comfort, even when its 25 outside. Truthfully, I don't think I need any help in starting a fire, I just want to slow it down and I can't do it.
I am very sorry to read here, in this forum, that I should expect 725 when I have everything closed up and my draft set to -.05! I think that is crazy! My floor plan is also open, like really open, with 9' , 10 and 18" ceilings on my first floor and this thing has me opening windows! Seriously. Who would want this? I was really hoping there was more that could be done to tone this thing down but I'm not reading that! I can see 750 800 maybe with the primary fully open but not when its closed up. I guess opened up it can reach 1000. I'll never know as I'll never do that. I don't think anybody ever will. Why would they? As always, thank you everyone for chiming in!!


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## Ash (Dec 30, 2014)

Js, if it hasn't already been mentioned here one thing I'd check if your stove is burning to hot would be to make sure the ash pan door is shut tight and seals up properly.


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## Kobeman (Dec 30, 2014)

Just straighten out a paper clip and set it on like so, the needle will push it around and leave it where max was, I'll have to try to calibrate mine someday, thanks for the tip


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## northwinds (Dec 30, 2014)

No pipe damper.  Slow burn.  500 degrees.  Wood charred in front, wood uncharred in back.  Air 90% closed.


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## js156 (Dec 31, 2014)

Northwinds, I am soooo envious. Will you PLEASE trade stoves with me?


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## js156 (Jan 3, 2015)

Well, here's what I have. A pipe damper set at a low -.06 draft, with the air controls 100 % closed. Now in reading the two descriptions, and not looking at the videos, I would expect to see your fire looking larger than mine but that is not the case. To me, my fire looks maybe 10 times bigger than yours. Does anybody have any ideas as to why?
Thank you.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/15998825207/


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## northwinds (Jan 3, 2015)

js156 said:


> Well, here's what I have. A pipe damper set at a low -.06 draft, with the air controls 100 % closed. Now in reading the two descriptions, and not looking at the videos, I would expect to see your fire looking larger than mine but that is not the case. To me, my fire looks maybe 10 times bigger than yours. Does anybody have any ideas as to why?
> Thank you.
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/15998825207/



It's so tough, js, without being there.  That's why I suggested having a different Quad dealer inspect your system and try to start a fire/maintain a fire at lower temperatures.  And I'm not talking about merely the ability to start a fire in your firebox.  I mean to do it the way the manual describes, using full primary air and then bringing it down in increments, which is the way the stove is designed to be used. 

From that limited video, I can see that your wood splits are much smaller than mine.  Small splits have greater surface area, and result in faster, hotter fires.  The other obvious thing is that your draft is much higher.  That's a function of your chimney, which is problematic.  You needed a lot of chimney to get close to your roofline, yet that much length is giving you a problem with an easy-breathing stove. 

The manometer is intended to test whether you have proper draft.  You are using your manometer to operate your stove.  Obviously, you're doing it in an effort to control your very strong draft, but you shouldn't use those numbers as evidence that the fire should be smaller.  With the damper, you're getting to -0.6.  The manual says that low burn should be -0.4 with (low primary, no damper) and -1.0 at high (primary open, presumably).  Page 7. 

"To be sure that your appliance burns properly, the chimney
draft ( static pressure) should be approximately - .0 4 inch water
column ( W .C .) during a low burn and - .1 0 inch W .C . during a
high burn, measured 6 inches ( 1 5 2 mm) above the top of the
appliance after one hour of operation at each burn setting."


There are very specific instructions for when to take that reading.   

Those are my ideas.  If you're not willing to bring in a professional to help you in this situation, and you can't figure this out yourself, you should probably sell the stove.  It has significant value, if it isn't warped by the high temps.  I feel bad for you because the dealer that sold you the chimney should be helping with a remedy so that this excellent stove can be operated as designed. The manual states:

"Your local dealer is the expert in your geographic
area and can usually make suggestions or discover solutions
that will easily correct your flue problem
area and can usually make suggestions or discover solutions
that will easily correct your flue problem"

These are expensive stoves, and part of what you pay for is dealer support.  Due to the way your credit card dispute turned out, I can understand your reluctance to go back to the same dealer for help.  Having said that, the credit card dispute ended, and they got paid.  One way or another, I think you're going to need help not available on an internet forum.  That means someone else at your house operating your stove and giving you advice on how to
proceed.


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## js156 (Jan 3, 2015)

Northwinds thank you for your reply.
I will try to get a dealer here to go over my stove; hopefully I will find someone willing to travel. Naturally, I wish Quad had a better way to approve dealers. They are good at sales but once the check clears fairwell. Sadly, my high premium hasn't prevented that...They should address that as a priority.
Anyway, I'm not sure that I agree that the large fire I am showing is a result of my draft. At this time, I do not think it is. My fire is many times the size of yours and my draft is near the bottom of the allowed draft range. I imagine yours is too. But, if you haven't checked it, it may be even higher.
The only reason that I try (key word "try") to use the damper to control my fire is because I have my primary and start up air as closed as I can get them but the fire is still going strong-different than yours. With the air controls exhausted, I look to anything else I can close "more" and that object is my damper - I can lower it to near zero if I want to. Now I am allowed to have my draft in the range of -.04 to -.10, as you said, so I don't understand how -.06 is a part of my problem? I can put in larger logs but I will still have a very similar fire.
I actually just looked at my fire and it is similar to the video posted and I have my draft at -.03, my air controls are completely closed with larger logs. Again, I crank that down because I have exhausted all else.
But with everything closed and my draft at -.03 I would expect to see something similar to your video. I don't. I just don't have that kind of air control I guess and I don't know why. I have always thought that I should but I don't.
Again, thank you very much for your reply.


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## js156 (Jan 4, 2015)

Again, thank you for your many attempts to help me with my stove.
I don't think I every posted how I got the temps down from the 800+ range so here it is.
My friend with the Jotul came by knowing the high temps that I was getting and we opened up the cover inside the front of the stove that covers the primary slide control and noticed that is was cocked. I believe it was the front that was touching and the back that was up. It was raised by maybe not less than 1/8". In loosening the screws that hold the knob in place, under the shelf, we were able to drop that down thus lowering the temps that made my fire, and wall dangerously hot. This is how I got the stove down to the 725/750 I now get.
Anyway, the slide now works. I also put a short screw in the hole that is in the sliding block because I am doing anything and everything to slow the burn.
My friend, Dave, even though we had made that correction, believes that there is still something wrong with either my stove or the design as a whole. Naturally, he never saw Northwinds video of his low fire as it wasn't yet posted.
I wish this was operator error but I'm not inclined to think so at this time. I just can't cut the air enough. My draft is at -.05 and I just can't slow the fire down. Dave had thought I had a leak but I'm not sure about that either because when I close the damper to -.04, or even -.03, I don't get smoke inside my house and my carbon monoxide detector doesn't go off. (I want to say, I was sure to fire caulk where the stove top adapter connects to the stove pipe otherwise the damper may push the exhaust out there.) I also look for light at night when the fire is burning but I don't see any.
I'm stumped. I truly believe I should be able to keep a fire under 750 - I realize that sometimes it may happen but I am on top of this thing, to the best of my ability, and it happens every time I have more than a couple logs in burning. (and I mean every)
My ash pan gasket has been replaced too. Dave told me to, under the circumstances, fill that thing with sand.
I keep going back to my primary air control. I say that it works but by that I mean it goes back and forth and covers the opening. But to me, the air control goes from way too much air to, too much air.
When I have my primary in the closed position the flames in my fire, assuming the fire is toward the front, blow from side to side.
If I open the primary up it blows the flames out, there, and the orange of the wood glows bright. Then, when I close the primary it burns with a flame. To me, that is too much and therefore it wouldn't be designed that way. But, you never know.
I would love to slow that down but I don't know how. Does anyone have any idea what precedes the primary? Believe me I will look there.
I have already tried to find a blown up parts list online but I haven't been able to find it.
Thank you all!


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## Ash (Jan 4, 2015)

js156 said:


> If I open the primary up it blows the flames out, there, and the orange of the wood glows bright.



When you open the primary the flames go out?


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## rideau (Jan 4, 2015)

yes, my reaction too.  sounds like the primary was closed, not opened.


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## Ash (Jan 4, 2015)

rideau said:


> yes, my reaction too.  sounds like the primary was closed, not opened.


Same thing I was thinking


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## js156 (Jan 4, 2015)

Absolutely. The air blows so hard it will not light the wood but instead blow it out, get it glowing orange, and when I close it, to the right, it will then burn again. The flame will be larger than it was as the air increased the size of the area glowing. So, from a whirlwind to a fairly strong breeze; in other words.
Naturally, if the fire is strong and in the back of the stove this will not happen. Then, it will help to increase the flame but if the fire is up front and not fully developed, absolutely.


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## js156 (Jan 4, 2015)

Seeing is believing!  
I did try larger logs this evening and it seems to have slowed the fire, this is the later stages of it here. 
What I am wanting to show though is how the fire goes out (to a degree) when I open the primary, to the left, maybe 5 seconds into it and then close it again, to the right, maybe 8 seconds into it. The draft is at -.05.
I was just throwing in the towel when I walked by and saw the flames blowing to the left and thought what the hell I'll put it on hearth com.
Thank you guys, a very lot. I'm burnt out and I must be doing the same to you.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/16014854080/


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## Jags (Jan 5, 2015)

How many logs does it take you to "fill" the firebox?  (I am asking for a very specific reason)


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## rideau (Jan 5, 2015)

That's not going out...in my opinion.  Of course, you only left it there for an instant.  What happens if you leave it there for longer?  I don't have your stove, so am not familiar with it's controls, but it sure looks like in the first instance you closed the air, then reopened it in the second.  It is fine to let it establish at the lower burn rate, the one you had it in for just an instant, whether that is opened or closed on your stove.  You want to slow this thing down.

on my stove, in a setting with a similar draft issue, it is not possible to blow the fire out by adding air.  On the contrary, I get a roaring fire that, left that way, would certainly get out of control and overfire.  I'd love to see you try burning with the air setting in the position you had it in momentarily.  If that puts the fire out (really out, without glowing coals, but rather all black in the box), then I would next move the air control just about a quarter of an inch in the other direction; still  no flame or glowing, another quarter inch.  Wait a bit after each of these steps...a minute or two at least.  If no result at that point, try opening the flue damper just a bit.  Still no fire, open it a bit more.   Try things such as detailed, and similar permutations, giving the stove at least a minute or two to start to react to each of your  actions.  I'd change just one thing at a time.

I would not expect you to ever have to burn with the air wide open, except for a minute or so at loading, assuming loading into a hot firebox, given your draft. 

Glad to see that you are getting a result with the use of larger wood, good to see as it is a normal reaction, what you would expect in a properly working stove.  How much did it help?  What temps did you have, and how long did your burn last?


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## js156 (Jan 5, 2015)

rideau and Jags,
The position I had it in momentarily was the open position. The position where the flame is blowing is the closed position. In other words, I started the video with the stoves primary in the closed position, I opened it briefly, to show that the flames in front do in fact blow out with the primary open, and then at the end of the video the primary is again closed with the flames still blowing to the sides. That is why had expressed an interest in slowing that down. Less air, smaller flame, lower temps, longer burn time. It would be awesome. Maybe I'll get it!
I need to do it some more time to answer your questions with the wood! Thx!


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## rideau (Jan 5, 2015)

I couldn't find a QuadraFire Isle Royale manual, so looked at one for a different QuadraFire.  In it they caution that one of the possible results of an overfire is warping of the air tube.  Have you checked that?  Something is wrong with the air supply, if opening the air snuffs out a fire.  Opening  the air should definitely make for a higher burn rate.  If that is not happening, I believe you have a fundamental problem with the air supply to the stove.  Another thing they caution about is damage to the ceramic blanket/baffle board.  Damage to either of those could also influence burns.  Did your dealer check those things when he came out (I think I remember he came out once?).


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## js156 (Jan 5, 2015)

rideau,
Your memory is correct! He did come out once. He was here and replaced the ash pan gasket and did not look at the air tube as far as I know. If the stove has to be taken apart to reveal that he didn't check it out because the only thing that he opened up was the primary air control sliding mechanism (fortunately my friend Dave reviewed his work) and the ash pan. If you remember he wouldn't tighten the glass and he didn't believe the doors should pass the dollar bill test either. All this, plus a short chimney, from a Quad "Platinum Dealer" which I did look for before I bought. But I am digressing, and need to stay focused on the air control.
Opening the air  (primary) will make it burn at a higher rate; it gives it so much air that in the front it blows it out (that is what happened in the video). Everywhere else it will eventually take off and give me, basically, an unsafe fire. It's my opinion, at least right now, that, on low, or closed, I still get too much air. It does blow the flame side ways.

I can't find air control mentioned where it shows a picture of my stove "exploded" on page 32, so I don't know what it looks like yet.
I can find "Door/Air Control, Upgrade" mentioned at the bottom of Page 35 but there still isn't a picture of it or where it would go.
As far as the baffle at the top of the stove I can't see any physical damage from my stove over firing but it certainly glowed once or twice.
Thank you for mentioning the air tube, its definitely, definitely worth looking into. thank you. I hope I didn't forget something...I'm in a rush.


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## js156 (Jan 5, 2015)

rideau,
I think the air tubes are simply the tubes on the baffle. Unfortunatly, this won't stop my overfiring. I was hoping it was a supply tube that could be repaired...The board is mysteriously quiet in light of the video I posted last night.
Way too little control of the fire. If there was a fix, the members of this board probably would have said so. It's likely a poor design. Welcome to the Quadra-fire Family my manual reads. Funny, I'm not feeling it.


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## rideau (Jan 5, 2015)

As I said, I couldn't find a manual for the Isle Royale, but looked at one for a similar but smaller stove by QuadraFire.  I'm pretty sure they referred to an air supply tube as a possible victim of overfire, as well as the baffle and ceramic blanket as well as other things to check.The manual I saw was pretty detailed about how to run the stove and possible overfire problems. ( The emphasis on the issue and the early statement that an overfire voids the warranty sends me a flag that this may well be an issue with the stoves.)   Is your manual as detailed? 

I'm sure you have read your manual many times.  Does your stove have an automatic control for starting the stove?  If so, do you use it?  The manual I read says it should be used with every start.  Do you have a blower/fan? 

What temps are you able to keep the stove at using larger splits?  re they helping much? 

I wonder if there is any seasoned burner, even if he/she does not have an Isle Royale, who is a member of the forum and in Bucks County and would be willing to go over to your place and try to help you.  Maybe in person they will spot an issue or see a solution.  You might post a new thread entitled something like :Burners in or near Bucks County, I would appreciate some help with my stove.....and see what response you get.  With the Isle Royale in the title of your thread there may be many people who live near you but never look at he thread because it does not pertain to them/covers a different stove than they own.


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## Jags (Jan 6, 2015)

js156 said:


> The board is mysteriously quiet in light of the video I posted last night.
> Way too little control of the fire. If there was a fix, the members of this board probably would have said so



The board has asked questions that have gone unanswered.


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## northwinds (Jan 6, 2015)

The manual is here:

http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/250_5763.pdf 

I've already given the OP the best advice I can.  He should have the system checked out by a qualified Quad dealer technician in his area.  The chimney is 30 feet tall (stove designed for 12-14 feet); air controls have been taken apart and put back together by the OP and a a friend; and it's obvious to me from that video that the draft (which sucked the flame out for an instant) is like a Hoover vac on steroids when the primary air is opened up.  There's no way that I would run this stove with the primary air control closed all the time and a pipe damper/manometer as my only air control.  

The original installation is not the OP's fault, *if* he was given no warning about the possible draft problems with his configuration, but I think as a new stove owner, he's beyond where self help makes sense.  It's been a year since the original installation, and he hasn't been able to operate the stove as designed ever. 

.


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## js156 (Jan 6, 2015)

Jags,  The number of logs varies. Like I said, I use the same wood as my friend Dave uses with his Jotul.  What's up? Thx.


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## js156 (Jan 6, 2015)

Notrthwinds I love your posts....I have listened and I have called another dealer. They were suppose to call me back yesterday and didn''t. I will try them again.
I don't know why Quad would make a stove capable of heating 3000 sf and think that that size house would have a 12 to 14 foot chimney. It won't it will almost always be installed in a 2 story house.
But if that is what it is made for then maybe I will have to control it with a pipe damper. This seems to be what Kobeman does. But you on the other hand don't have a damper and do get low burns so...
My Platinum Dealer said nothing about anything that I have experienced. Downdrafts, overfiring all this nonsense that has taken up sooo much f my time when my wife and I tapped into our savings to treat ourselves to something special. Nope, it went nothing like that. I walked into the store told them what I saw online and they sold it to me. Really. At check out they asked me about how high my house was (seriously) guesses at how many lengths of exterior pipes I needed and then put it on my mastercard. (Seriously). That is why the chimney was short and my house filled with smoke. Then when I told them it was downdrafting they just don't get back to me. And you know the story with the service tech that doesn't believe everything that the manual has to say and the dollar bill test ect ect. From the time I walked into the store bought the stove and drove away with a delivery date was at most 40 minutes.
And they are still a Quad Platinum Dealer waiting for the next customer. Cha-ching.
Again, thank you for your valuable posts.


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## Jags (Jan 6, 2015)

Keep in mind that each and every install will have some unique properties so a comparison from one to the other may not be apples to apples.
Example: Your buddy and his Jotul on a typical 15-16 ft (or even 20ft) of pipe burning logs the size of a paper towel tube may be able to control it.  Use the same fuel in your unit (an easy breathing, extended flue (30ft)) and you may not be able to control it for squat.
I wished is was logical for me to personally see your setup and burn habits.  It sounds like we may have a perfect storm of some type that needs one ingredient to be diffused.
For the record...I use fuel in the size range that 6 or possibly 8 splits FILLS the stove.  If you are getting 10-12+ splits in the stove you are using too small of fuel for such a draft inducing install.
Assuming that the stove is in correct operating condition (all controls and seals doing what they are supposed to do) I am gonna go back to the FUEL, OXYGEN, IGNITION - the three things that results in fire.

Ignition - not much to change

Oxygen - you have already installed a flue damper to restrict output flow (and thus, input).  You have, along with a neighbor, disassembled and reassembled the primary air controls, I can only have faith the this was/is properly reinstalled.  The only thing you have not tried is to cover a part of the primary air intake.  There are other members that have done that in the past with success, but it is not a mfg. recommended alteration. Also - I don't remember if this was asked/answered, but - are you positive that you start up air control is in the proper position (pulled out) and making a proper seal to the inlet tubes to the stove?

Fuel - it appears that there is no moisture issue - BUT it can go the opposite direction as well.  Fuel can be too dry (albeit a rare instance for typical cord word).  Size matters.  Smaller splits contain far more surface area - area that off gasses - than large splits. With a stove that is drafting like a hoover I would be inclined to use splits that would be considered "large" by most standards.  I am talking 6" plus across the ends.

And finally - operation.  I cannot pinpoint any operational mistakes.  With all controls in the fully closed position you should be able to bring the stove below 800F stove top.  By the way - where are you taking the readings from?  I use the top left corner of the griddle.  The center of the griddle will run considerably hotter.

ETA - I think you have got the third longest post I have ever written - only to be bested by my electric splitter review and my small log splitter build thread.


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## Jags (Jan 6, 2015)

js156 said:


> But if that is what it is made for then maybe I will have to control it with a pipe damper.


Wait - whut?  I thought you already had a pipe damper.  Is this not correct??


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## Toploader (Jan 6, 2015)

Kobeman said:


> What are your stack temps?  I agree with Northwinds ,I watched the clip, looks like the start up air  isn't closing or the front air slide isn't shutting, that flame is what mine looks like with air open . If it is open then this would make since-High flue temps causing your wall to get hot due to the short clearance. I think I'd find a different dealer, or if going it alone I'd pull the cover off the start up air assy on the back and make sure everything is status quo


Hey js156 Ive been following your plight, I'm sure this is a really frustrating situation for you, I thought about buying an Isle Royale last year but decided against it because of their reputation for running on the hot side. Kobeman pointed out the possibility of a problem with the start up air, did you look into that? If you can't find a defect in the stove maybe it's time to end your frustration, pass it off to someone with a shorter stack, and pick up an Oslo for yourself, a more simple stove known to not be an easy breather.


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## rideau (Jan 6, 2015)

Northwinds, Thanks for the location on the manual.

You had an early overfire.  The manual lists as a possible casualty, to be checked before burning again, the air supply tube.  The manual says the tubes provide the start up air supply.  Jags says to be sure there is a proper seal from the start up air control to the inlet tubes.  I really think you need to check this.

And, like Jags, I am fairly certain you said you HAD a pipe damper???  Are you talking about using an already installed pipe damper for control?  With your draft, I think a pipe damper needs to be installed and closed at all times, except possibly on start up. 

But, more fundamentally, I don't understand why you bought this stove with your tall chimney.  Did you research the stove?  The manual says that the stove was designed for use with a 12 to 14 foot chimney measured from the floor to the top of the chimney.  That is an incredibly short flue...about 9 1/2 to 11 feet above the stove top.  It further cautions that the more you deviate from that the greater the chance that you will have performance issues.  That is right at the beginning of the manual.  It seems to me that this is not an appropriate stove for a 30 foot chimney and you are likely fighting a loosing battle.  Most EPA stoves have the opposite problem:  under 15 feet from the stovetop (so 17 1/2 to 18 feet from the floor) may not have enough draft.  I suspect you could not have picked a much worse stove for your application. 

I'd cut my losses, sell the stove, and do a lot of research.  Get a stove that is designed for your setting, or at least that is easily capable of handling it.  The heat output specified by the manual is not excessive.  There are plenty of good medium size cat and non-cat stoves that put out that much heat.    Get yourself a good, reliable, easy to operate stove
where you know you can get good dealer or company service in the event you need it, or at least one that on this site has a reputation for being easy to run and control.  Once you have selected, ASK here for input and concerns before purchasing.  Actually, good idea to list your requirements and issues, and ask for preliminary input before doing your research.


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## jack_90125 (Jan 6, 2015)

I have a 24 ft chimney and so far no issues at all.but then I am in a different area and conditions. it performs well and throws lots of heat and keeps 2200 plus sq feet warm.


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## northwinds (Jan 6, 2015)

My recollection of the folks who have had overdraft issues with this stove is that all approached the 30 foot mark.  There was one guy here who was renting his place with 30 foot of chimney/Isle Royale, and the high temps were really causing him issues. The damper helped, but he still had high temps.


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## js156 (Jan 6, 2015)

I spoke with the service tech from another approved Quadra fire dealer in my area and he thought that my temps were with in range. He also thought that the only time I should be using my primary was at start up and that throughout the burn it should remain closed-universally. He spoke to me for maybe 20, 25 minutes. I did ask if he would take a look at my two recent videos and he reluctantly agreed. He didn't think he should come out based on what I was telling him.
He didn't really think that my wood splits were too small (although I may) but he did think that I should be sure to really fill it up and be able to get 6 to 8 hours out of it. I do hope he looks at my two videos because there is no way I'm going to get that but I wish I did.
As far as getting another stove, I hear you all but I would also have to redo my tile work which isn't cheap.
Rideau, it would have been nice if my Quad dealer mentioned to me that I would likely have over firing problems. I did not buy this thing off of craiglist. " They really ought not to be an approved dealer. This has been a loss of credibility for both the dealer and Quad; Quad for letting them be an approved, trusted, dealer. That they ain't.
Jags, Had" was a typo. Don't worry I have a damper. . I would have to take my stove apart to really check the start up air the way you want me to but when I have it open I can hear the whistle and I also don't see my fires burning from the back forward. It seems to me to be from the front to the back or the top down.
Maybe something is up with my primary that can be fixed and reduce the way it blows the flame around I don't know. I will let you know what that tech says. Jags, can you point me to the thread that talks of modifying the primary? Thx.
Again, thank you all for your helpful ideas, I will keep you posted.


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## Jags (Jan 7, 2015)

So you DO have a pipe damper?

This post explains the general theory:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/slightly-modified-insert-secondaries-ablaze.61653/#post-61653

There are still several questions from my previous post unanswered.
Fuel load?
Where are you taking temps at?  and for a baseline, try taking them from the top left corner of the griddle.  This would be so that I can compare to my own, known readings.


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## northwinds (Jan 7, 2015)

js156 said:


> I spoke with the service tech from another approved Quadra fire dealer in my area and he thought that my temps were with in range. He also thought that the only time I should be using my primary was at start up and that throughout the burn it should remain closed-universally. He spoke to me for maybe 20, 25 minutes. I did ask if he would take a look at my two recent videos and he reluctantly agreed. He didn't think he should come out based on what I was telling him.



What is the temp range that you discussed with the service tech?  Are you still experiencing temps above 700, and how long do the temps stay above 700?


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## js156 (Jan 7, 2015)

Jags, I have been posting videos and pictures of my set up for a long time. Yes, I have a damper! .

The way I have loaded. I previously loaded the stove by putting maybe 3 logs across the bottom and then load logs across the top of those logs. After talking with the tech yesterday I have been loading the rear bottom, then the rear top, then the middle bottom and the middle top, ect. This is better for me to get tighter loads because I was always trying to get them between the bottom logs and the baffle and that doesn't work as good. The temps I was posting are not in the center like Kobemans and Northwinds are on page 7 but they are close. My stove pipe numbers are 12" above the stove as per Chimgards recommendations. I did contact Chimgard about a probe thermometer, and for the forums sake, they told me not to do it. They said the readings would not be accurate.

Northwinds, I am still getting temps above 700 every time I use the stove. But now there seems to be debate as to where to take the temps at. Center, off center, or edge. The tech I spoke with yesterday seemed to blow off stove temps and was curious about stove pipe temps. Right now my stove pipe is 475 @ 12" up, center of griddle 735, edge of griddle 650. My draft was at -.05 and I lowered it to -.03. This may darken my windows but I want longer burn times with less high heat. As to how long, that is hard me to answer. As long as there is wood in the stove to burn is my answer. After the logs have burnt out and are still maintaining their shape the temp will drop to 400. At that time I can break them with a poker and I'll be left with large chunks of red hot ash.
If you want hours and minutes I can probably get you that information but probably not tomorrow. 

Also, I have yet to hear back from the tech as to my 2 videos and coming out for a service call...I sent them yesterday so hopefully I hear from him.

As always thank you. And if I don't answer your question please ask me again as Jags did....I miss some of them sometimes. Thx!


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## northwinds (Jan 7, 2015)

I am surprised that the tech "seemed to blow off stove temps."  That's not consistent with the conversations that I've had with Quad service techs who have all told me that 650  is the upper limit guidance although the manual is silent on that subject.  Having said that, most of us with the stoves on the forum have hit 700 from time to time for brief periods. (minutes not hours)

Loading all of the logs east/west and tightly packed together and bigger logs will slow down and extend your burn. 

Are you getting dark windows?    You shouldn't be if the stove is running that hot. 

We used to have a Quad service rep from Madison WI who was a regular poster here, jtp, but I haven't seen him around for a very long time.  It's always a big plus when manufacturers or their reps contribute to the forum (like Englander).

Edit:  There's lots of heat left in those coals.  Leave them alone and let them burn on their own from 400 on down.  You should be happy with those lower temps and not reload until you have just enough coals left for easy relighting.  Especially in your situation.


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## js156 (Jan 7, 2015)

Thanks for the tip about leaving them there as that is where I'm at now...the flames are gone but the logs are there and I'm 470 center of griddle and my windows are clear.


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## MattFoley772 (Jan 8, 2015)

Months ago he said his gaskets failed the dollar bill test. I've yet to read that they were fixed. Until those leaks are fixed he will get hot burns no matter what else he does.


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## js156 (Jan 10, 2015)

Matt,
As far as the doors, I thought that the gaskets looked okay. Meaning I didn't see any frayed edges where the ends come together and I did remove all the washers to make the door close tighter; and it is tight, very tight. With that and it being oem I decided to leave it alone. Thanks for asking.


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## js156 (Jan 10, 2015)

I mentioned before that the flames seem concentrated on the rear right side of my stove. Tonight, I saw flames coming out of the inside, side of my stove where the vertical brick butt into a vertical piece of steel that is on each side of the stove behind the cast iron side panels. I looked for the name of the piece of steel in the exploded drawing in my manual but it is not mentioned.
It's takes some looking to see what I am talking about since it doesn't video record with the same depth that I had looking at. But I think you will still see it. The flame comes out sideways and is noticeable at different times but at 28 seconds in I think it is pretty clear.
Thank you for looking.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/16248171851/

more of the same here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/16062510188/lightbox/

that damn flame from the log in front blocks it too much.

What do you think?


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## MattFoley772 (Jan 10, 2015)

Could be just the way the air flows around the logs. Did you try moving the logs to see what happens? Does it happen every time?


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## js156 (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm going to start calling this stove Christine, from Stephen King. I really do not like this stove at all.

I finally heard back from Quad regarding the two videos that I posted on page 7 where I asked for assistance to what may be going on. Their input? It's getting too much air. A kindergartner could have told me that. How did I end up with this stove. I hope they don't want any recommendations. Their system of passing everything of to their dealers and just hoping everything will go fine is  ludicrous. The second dealer I contacted disappeared. Now onto the third. Thanks Quad.


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## rideau (Jan 11, 2015)

I'd really recommend selling this stove and buying one that likes or at least tolerates a strong draft.  And buy from a dealer or a company that you can talk with, so you can get help if you have issues.  You can honestly tell a buyer that you have too tall a chimney for this stove.  Many people need a stove that will work well with a shorter chimney.  You could start keeping your eye open for a good fairly new stove that is used..in which case you might not loose too much in the exchange.


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## QuadraFire (Jan 14, 2015)

Hey JS,

This is Chris from QuadraFire. I have read through your post, so sorry to hear you are experiencing issues with your appliance! Seems like this great community has helped you very well so far. With your outstanding issues could you please send me an email so I can work with our Tech teams to troubleshoot your appliance and determine the root cause? I will let you know their response, as well as the corrective actions that need to be taken.

I can assure you, we are committed to every single appliance out there, and want to ensure that all Quad units are running smoothly and without issue. Although it has not been apparent to you, we are most definitely willing, and I am sorry for the frustrations you have had so far.

Please send me an email at petersonc@hearthnhome.com with the serial number of your appliance, as well as the outstanding issues with your unit, and the dealer you would prefer to work with in your area.


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## Chuck the Canuck (Jan 14, 2015)

Way to step up Quad.


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## Kobeman (Jan 14, 2015)

This is awesome that Quad is on here now,please post what the fix is. There has to be a restricter plate or something for taller chimney installs.  I think it's important to be able to eliminate the middle man, (dealer) and talk to the source.  I know when I got mine and called the dealer as I thought it was running too hot they said stove was fine and advised me to lower the chimney, which I dismissed as it would then violate code. Then billed me for the call. The owners manual is horrid and the parts breakdown only shows 25% of the parts.  Round here dealers of any product are a dying breed, (furniture, appliances, small engines, wood stoves/fireplaces) It's an online era, alot of products you buy have a paper in them that says Stop, do not return product to store, then lists a legit phone number to call. Guess I'm old skool


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## QuadraFire (Jan 14, 2015)

Kobeman said:


> This is awesome that Quad is on here now,please post what the fix is. There has to be a restricter plate or something for taller chimney installs.  I think it's important to be able to eliminate the middle man, (dealer) and talk to the source.  I know when I got mine and called the dealer as I thought it was running too hot they said stove was fine and advised me to lower the chimney, which I dismissed as it would then violate code. Then billed me for the call. The owners manual is horrid and the parts breakdown only shows 25% of the parts.  Round here dealers of any product are a dying breed, (furniture, appliances, small engines, wood stoves/fireplaces) It's an online era, alot of products you buy have a paper in them that says Stop, do not return product to store, then lists a legit phone number to call. Guess I'm old skool



We will definitely be able to look into the issue, just want to hear from JS first to clarify what exactly the current problems are that he is experiencing. In some cases, only hands on trouble shooting can truly resolve a problem; being on the other end of the computer can we can only use hypothesis. If need be, I can also assist in scheduling a Quad Factory Trained Technician out to assist and properly troubleshoot and diagnose the issue.


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## rideau (Jan 15, 2015)

Chris,
A suggestion. 
 We have seen a number of QuadraFire owners post that they have been unable to get a service response from their dealer/distributor or from QuadraFire.  A strong commitment to customer satisfaction might include in the manual a directive to seek assistance with issues first from one's dealer/distributor; if the issues were unable to be satisfactorily resolved, then fax the details of the issues and steps taken with/by the dealer distributor( with name and contact info on both owner and dealer),  to resolve issues, and remaining problems to :  [then give a fax # at QuadraFire].
This would  give the purchaser access to assistance in all situations, Quadrafire the opportunity to provide customer support and satisfaction, and QuadraFire a heads up if a dealer/distributor was consistently failing to provide service up to Quadra Fire's standards.


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 15, 2015)

Good customer service is worth its weight in gold and one of the major considerations I look at when purchasing a long term asset.  Very nice to see QuadraFire taking a proactive role here.


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## QuadraFire (Jan 15, 2015)

rideau said:


> Chris,
> A suggestion.
> We have seen a number of QuadraFire owners post that they have been unable to get a service response from their dealer/distributor or from QuadraFire.  A strong commitment to customer satisfaction might include in the manual a directive to seek assistance with issues first from one's dealer/distributor; if the issues were unable to be satisfactorily resolved, then fax the details of the issues and steps taken with/by the dealer distributor( with name and contact info on both owner and dealer),  to resolve issues, and remaining problems to :  [then give a fax # at QuadraFire].
> This would  give the purchaser access to assistance in all situations, Quadrafire the opportunity to provide customer support and satisfaction, and QuadraFire a heads up if a dealer/distributor was consistently failing to provide service up to Quadra Fire's standards.



Thanks for your feedback. I will forward this on to our Director of Consumer Care for immediate action


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## js156 (Jan 16, 2015)

I did reply to Chris this morning and thanked him for stepping up to the plate.
I will say that I had very few, if any, kind words for my Platinum dealer and I look forward to finally being able to enjoy my stove and not be working on it.
If it was someone from this board who tapped Quad on the shoulder to look at this forum, thank you. Who knows when I would have stopped typing!


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## js156 (Jan 16, 2015)

One way to fix crummy installs would be to have mandatory install guidelines. If someone has vinyl siding, dealers, you do it this way, if they have brick, you have to do like this, ect. This would prevent the leaking chimney that I have.(yes it leaks too)


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## MattFoley772 (Jan 16, 2015)

What exactly is a leaking chimney?


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## js156 (Jan 16, 2015)

When it rains water lands on the chimney outside, of course, and follows the seam of the horizontal piece to the inside and drips.


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## Chuck the Canuck (Jan 16, 2015)

Boy oh boy, seems like ya just can't win sometimes.....  But chin up, help's on the way and there's brighter days ahead  (I'm serious, things will get better).

Cheers


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## Toploader (Jan 16, 2015)

js156 said:


> When it rains water lands on the chimney outside, of course, and follows the seam of the horizontal piece to the inside and drips.


I fixed a leak like this for a friend once by removing the drip collar [just above the roof] and reapplying the bead of heat resistant caulking that seals the joint between the collar and the pipe. It's not hard to do.


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## MattFoley772 (Jan 23, 2015)

js156 said:


> When it rains water lands on the chimney outside, of course, and follows the seam of the horizontal piece to the inside and drips.


Where chimney meets thimble it should be sealed with silicone and water won't get past.


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## js156 (Jan 25, 2015)

I wanted to let everybody know that I am waiting for an appointment to be scheduled with a Quadra-fire dealer in my area to come out and check out my stove. I will certainly let everyone know what comes from it. In the meantime, I would like to ask everyone to look at this latest video that I put on Flickr and tell me what you think. If it's deemed valuable ( I think it is) I will forward it to Quad.
I think it shows flames coming out of my side wall wall behind that steel "pillar" that is on each side of the stove before the brick....I realize that I recorded it before but I think this time it came through much more clearly. It looks like a torch.
Being there is nothing solid there to burn my thinking is I have a leak and that air leak is burning the smoke and is also causing my high temperatures. Let me know what you think! Thanks!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/73330363@N05/16366882842/


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## northwinds (Jan 25, 2015)

Honestly, I can't tell that anything is wrong in the video.  It just looks like active secondary burn to me. You need an experienced set of eyes there with you to start the stove, take it up to temp, and flatten out the temp at reasonable levels.  If the tech can't do it, he'll hopefully have recommendations about what to do next.


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## rideau (Jan 26, 2015)

I definitely see what you are talking about.  There is a steady torch coming from one area of the stove, as opposed to active flames moving around.

I'm not familiar with your stove, but if that isn't the normal main air supply point, then I think you may have found your problem.  It may be the point where the main air feeds into the stove.

I've  certainly never have seen a torch like effect such as that on my (very different) stove.  Even if it is the main air supply point, there may be way too much air getting in.

Why don't you PM Chris from Quadra Fire and ask him to look at the video?  He'll be able to tell you if that is normal or abnormal, I'm sure.


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## js156 (Jan 26, 2015)

Thank you both taking a looking at this. Rideau, I agree with you that I should forward this to Quad.
I was also going to point out that the secondary burn is only on the right side of the stove again.
I was so happy to have the opportunity to record that torch because the new Quad Dealer told me, shortly before Quad posted and came to my rescue, that when they come out they didn't want the stove burning. 
I almost forgot, that Is not the main supply of air normally. There are suppose to be only two, front and back.


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## rideau (Jan 26, 2015)

You could try holding a lit candle near that point outside the stove, when that is happening.  If that is in fact a leak of that magnitude, I would expect the flame to be sucked toward the stove.


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## Kobeman (Jan 26, 2015)

Those left and right vertical channels carry the air up to the secondary manifold, looks like it's missing some cement


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## js156 (Jan 26, 2015)

Kobeman, Do you have an opinion as to whether that leak would bypass my ability to control the air flow into the stove? My immediate thought is that it would but if it's merely channel to take the air someplace else is it six one way and a half a dozen the other?
Can we count the leaks I have had? The ash pan, the dollar bill test failing on the doors, the glass being loose, the primary air control being cocked and now, possibly, one of my vertical channels. Any guesses on how hot my stove got? I don't want to know. This was one dangerous stove.


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## Kobeman (Jan 26, 2015)

Ahh, she's a hell of a stove, I won't say how hot my wife has had mine and it didn't care!  That air in the channels is being preheated by the fire and then gets dumped thru the tubes up top, it's unregulated cept for the holes in the tubes, I suppose if it were dumping down low it would blast the coals and create a higher burn, Im following for quads reply


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## MattFoley772 (Jan 28, 2015)

Does flame


js156 said:


> Kobeman, Do you have an opinion as to whether that leak would bypass my ability to control the air flow into the stove? My immediate thought is that it would but if it's merely channel to take the air someplace else is it six one way and a half a dozen the other?
> Can we count the leaks I have had? The ash pan, the dollar bill test failing on the doors, the glass being loose, the primary air control being cocked and now, possibly, one of my vertical channels. Any guesses on how hot my stove got? I don't want to know. This was one dangerous stove.



So you've fixed all those other gasket leaks?

Did you fix your chimney water leak?

Difficult to say if you have a leak in your stove from just a couple of videos. You didn't say if it happens all the time or if you move the wood around or if you change the air control.


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## js156 (Jan 28, 2015)

As I said the dealer replaced the ash pan gasket, my friend assisted with the cocked primary air control, I tightened the glass after the the service person didn't and I also tightened the door because the same service person didn't believe what the manual had to say.
I haven't tried to fix the chimney leak yet but I do have concerns that the installation of the flashing it not congruent with the way Certainteed wants their siding to be installed.
Regardless of where I have my air control, air shouldn't be blowing in from the side of my stove as the videos do show.
Five leaks, previously all at the same time; when my stove was new, and just out of the box.  Wow.


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## ksc (Jan 28, 2015)

Too bad there wasn't a lemon law for wood stoves. I can't believe some think Quadrafire "stepped up to the plate". It appears they did nothing but drop the ball and pass the buck. At this point the only way Quadrafire can save face is to refund your money AND offer you a complimentry stove. One that works,.  If this was a gas or oil fired appliance the issues would have been taken care of in days, not months. I'd be looking into your states Consumer Protection Laws and Implied Warranty Laws. Some pay triple damages and your documentation appears solid...


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## northwinds (Jan 28, 2015)

ksc said:


> Too bad there wasn't a lemon law for wood stoves. I can't believe some think Quadrafire "stepped up to the plate". It appears they did nothing but drop the ball and pass the buck. At this point the only way Quadrafire can save face is to refund your money AND offer you a complimentry stove. One that works,.  If this was a gas or oil fired appliance the issues would have been taken care of in days, not months. I'd be looking into your states Consumer Protection Laws and Implied Warranty Laws. Some pay triple damages and your documentation appears solid...



If I recall correctly, you are the poster that recommended the OP put this into the credit card dispute last March.  That didn't turn out so well.  

Quadrafire has stepped up to the plate.  I'm looking forward to see how this one turns out.  This is a well-loved model for nearly everyone who has owned it.  If there's a manufacturing defect, I would expect Quad to resolve it.  But I don't think anyone knows what the problem is yet, except that the installation required a really tall chimney for an easy breathing stove.  Without being there, it's basically guesswork on anything else.


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## ksc (Jan 28, 2015)

Wow! This has gone on for a year! Like I said before this is horrendous customer service by the dealer, thier installer, and Quadrafire. They aren't even in the game. Based on what I've read here the OP has been defrauded over $6k. I couldn't imagine stringing one of my customers along for a few weeks like let alone almost a year like Quadrafire and thier agents have done. Shameful....


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## bholler (Jan 28, 2015)

ksc said:


> Based on what I've read here the OP has been defrauded over $6k.


I am sorry but i dont see any fraud here at all.  Poor service absolutely,  crappy install yes, but fraud no way.  I just read the thread and if i had read it earlier i would have recommended having an independent sweep come look at it fix the problems and submitting a bill to the dealer to cover that cost.  I would still recommend that at this point call around and check references of local csia and nfi pros and get a good reliable on to diagnose and fix the problem if i was closer i would come do it my self but bucks co is at least 3 hours from me and i am not driving that far


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## js156 (Jan 29, 2015)

I wanted to change this.

Wow, thank you all for your input. I do think everyone here is trying to help and everyone has a different idea as to what is the right solution. 
My right solution is to get a replacement stove. Not a different stove, but a replacement stove. One that doesn't have five leaks and doesn't uncontrollably overfire for just about a year because of doors, glass, the primary, the ash pan and now some tube that brings air to the manifold. I didn't intentionally buy a defective stove and I don't want someone to put mortar on a tube and tell me everything is alright when my manual says otherwise. Day after day of overfiring takes its toll. This wasn't once or twice or even three times but every single time. As of now its 758.
As far as the crappy install I would like that remedied too. I shouldn't have to go out there and caulk the thing to keep the rain out it should have been done correctly the first time. That is what I paid for, that is why I went to a dealer, that is what I deserve.
None of this second rate crap.
If you want to disagree with me go right on ahead. Like I said there are a lot of people on this board and we are not likely to agree on everything but I didn't buy this on Craigslist and I don't want to be treated like I did.

bhollar, I could have submitted a bill to the dealer but I think it would have ended up in court. I say that because they had a way of consistently blowing me off. I tried to tell Wood Heat (dealer) the day after I had the stove installed it was overfiring and the sales person instead asked me for my credit card number to pay for the chimney and then had to go and hung up. 
The way I found out that my chimney was three an half feet short was my house filled up with smoke for maybe an hour? Maybe more? I can’t remember if I had leather gloves then or not. When I contacted Wood Heat about that with photographs and videos and they never got back to me again. A fitting response is to have their insurance company send out a company that re-mediates smoke damage and to apologize to me for it. But, no. Nothing. If the buyer doesn’t figure it out, well, it will just keep happening. I imagine you're an honest person but I also imagine that if I sent Wood Heat a bill, it would have clogged their toilet.

A new stove, preferably an install that respects Certainteeds vinyl siding installation instructions, a chimney that won't fall away from my house and, if they see fit, an apology. All but the apology I paid for. The apology I earned.

We’ll see if Quad does business different than Wood Heat.


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## QuadraFire (Jan 29, 2015)

js156 said:


> I wanted to change this.
> 
> Wow, thank you all for your input. I do think everyone here is trying to help and everyone has a different idea as to what is the right solution.
> My right solution is to get a replacement stove. Not a different stove, but a replacement stove. One that doesn't have five leaks and doesn't uncontrollably overfire for just about a year because of doors, glass, the primary, the ash pan and now some tube that brings air to the manifold. I didn't intentionally buy a defective stove and I don't want someone to put mortar on a tube and tell me everything is alright when my manual says otherwise. Day after day of overfiring takes its toll. This wasn't once or twice or even three times but every single time. As of now its 758.
> ...



Hey JS, just wanted to check in to see how things are going. After I received your email last week, the Director of Consumer Care took your case on and I believe contacted Wood Heat. Feel free to shoot me an email and we can go over your case notes, and I can dig up some answers for you. -Chris


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## bholler (Jan 29, 2015)

js156 said:


> bhollar, I could have submitted a bill to the dealer but I think it would have ended up in court. I say that because they had a way of consistently blowing me off. I tried to tell Wood Heat (dealer) the day after I had the stove installed it was overfiring and the sales person instead asked me for my credit card number to pay for the chimney and then had to go and hung up.
> The way I found out that my chimney was three an half feet short was my house filled up with smoke for maybe an hour? Maybe more? I can’t remember if I had leather gloves then or not. When I contacted Wood Heat about that with photographs and videos and they never got back to me again. A fitting response is to have their insurance company send out a company that re-mediates smoke damage and to apologize to me for it. But, no. Nothing. If the buyer doesn’t figure it out, well, it will just keep happening. I imagine you're an honest person but I also imagine that if I sent Wood Heat a bill, it would have clogged their toilet.


I totally agree that the dealer seems like a hack and that is why i suggested getting someone else out to look at it.   If you had smoke damage submit it to your insurance and they will go after the dealer.  I doubt you really need a new stove just a competent tech to go over it and now possibly replace the tubes.  But i am not looking at it.  And I see no reason that the chimney would fall off of the house the tee support looks like it is installed correctly as well as the other supports.  They should have caulked the wall pass thru though obviously.  I agree that they would probably not pay the bill but at this point i would have gone to some one else for sure you have allot of money tied up in something that you cant use correctly and i am pretty sure that a competent tech could get it straightened out.


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## MattFoley772 (Jan 29, 2015)

js156 said:


> I wanted to change this.
> 
> Wow, thank you all for your input. I do think everyone here is trying to help and everyone has a different idea as to what is the right solution.
> My right solution is to get a replacement stove. Not a different stove, but a replacement stove. One that doesn't have five leaks and doesn't uncontrollably overfire for just about a year because of doors, glass, the primary, the ash pan and now some tube that brings air to the manifold. I didn't intentionally buy a defective stove and I don't want someone to put mortar on a tube and tell me everything is alright when my manual says otherwise. Day after day of overfiring takes its toll. This wasn't once or twice or even three times but every single time. As of now its 758.
> ...


I have Isle Royale with same setup as yours (prefab chimney through wall and up side of house about 25') so your problem fascinates me. Having been an installer years ago I installed it myself and have had none of these problems. From reading your posts I can't tell what initially caused your hot burns. Perhaps operator error (sorry but you seemed confused about your air controls in the beginning so this seems possible), perhaps a poor gasket job at factory, perhaps you got unlucky and got a defective stove. Any of these could cause overfiring, which could lead to cracking or warping, which could cause an air leak you can't fix. I wish I knew for sure what happened. I can't wait to see what Quad does for you. This thread has had over 12,000 views last I checked so a lot of people are watching and waiting.


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## js156 (Feb 1, 2015)

Matt, One major difference is that you installed the stove and knew what you were doing. Not to be redundant but I had leaking doors, leaking glass, the ash pan gasket leaked, the primary slide leaked, the tube on the right hand side of the stove still leaks plus the damper and manometer that I discovered here, by advice here on Hearth, (thx) and then learn to install it. Without it, the stove reaches -.20, that's minus point twenty. That too, can cause a very hot stove. Add all of these up and you have a problem. You didn't have this. You relied on yourself. I relied on people that I hired to take care of me. As it turns out, this is a valuable difference.
This was why I posted the parts list on this thread so that the next guy/gal who comes along, and was thrown to the dogs, and is thoroughly confused, can go through this more easily from the long curve of mano-what?  But, that's really what this board is about. And that's a good thing.
This was definitely a jump in the water and learn to swim experience. I would never recommend for somebody else to do this. It's too much hassle. One year later and I'm still screwing around with this crap. Just shoot me.


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## Kobeman (Feb 1, 2015)

Any word from quad? I think we all know what the current situation is and everyone is just waiting for quadrafire to get on site it seems.


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## MattFoley772 (Feb 1, 2015)

js156 said:


> Matt, One major difference is that you installed the stove and knew what you were doing. Not to be redundant but I had leaking doors, leaking glass, the ash pan gasket leaked, the primary slide leaked, the tube on the right hand side of the stove still leaks plus the damper and manometer that I discovered here, by advice here on Hearth, (thx) and then learn to install it. Without it, the stove reaches -.20, that's minus point twenty. That too, can cause a very hot stove. Add all of these up and you have a problem. You didn't have this. You relied on yourself. I relied on people that I hired to take care of me. As it turns out, this is a valuable difference.
> This was why I posted the parts list on this thread so that the next guy/gal who comes along, and was thrown to the dogs, and is thoroughly confused, can go through this more easily from the long curve of mano-what?  But, that's really what this board is about. And that's a good thing.
> This was definitely a jump in the water and learn to swim experience. I would never recommend for somebody else to do this. It's too much hassle. One year later and I'm still screwing around with this crap. Just shoot me.


Have you talked to Quad yet?


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## js156 (Feb 2, 2015)

Only sometimes do I get notices that somene has posted here ...
Quad isn't coming out. A different dealer is scheduled to look at the stove this week.
As far as direct correspondence, it's limited. Usually it's from me to them.


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## QuadraFire (Feb 3, 2015)

js156 said:


> Only sometimes do I get notices that somene has posted here ...
> Quad isn't coming out. A different dealer is scheduled to look at the stove this week.
> As far as direct correspondence, it's limited. Usually it's from me to them.



Hey JS, I just wanted to assure you that I am still keeping track of your case, and watching each step that our Tech team and the dealers in your area are taking. Because of the season that we are in, extra time is limited, and some dealers only available over a month out. Same with our Consumer Care teams. This is not an excuse of the situation, just an explanation of the time constraints. Although, I can assure you that your situation is our top priority right now, myself and the Director of Consumer Care have thoroughly discussed this and have pushed for the necessary steps to be taken.

Please let me know if I can offer any other answers or assistance going forward.


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## rideau (Feb 3, 2015)

Boy, I have to say that post would stop me from buying a Quadrafire.  I realize the OP is able to heat with his stove, but still!  A month out for service because it is the busy season.  We only heat or need our stoves during the busy season.  Once a company has sold me  product, I want them to stand behind it and provide service in a timely fashion.  One month is not timely, and especially disturbing when service is one month out for a "top priority" problem. 

My manufacturer is incredibly busy at the moment, but deals with any issue I have immediately.  That is worth its weight in gold.


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## js156 (Feb 19, 2015)

I wanted to let those interested know whats been happening. On February 4 Quad hired a service person from a local dealer to look over my stove. It is his opinion that I need all new gaskets and all new fire mortar.
Since then I haven't heard anything. I did call the new dealer last week but nobody has got back to me. I am not very comfortable in thinking a service person can take apart, clean, and re-assemble all of the stoves parts is a brand new fashion. Simply smearing it on isn't going to be accepted. I also don't like the other wear and tear that over-firing places on a stove. I think it should be replaced. Of course, none of this would have happened in the first place if my dealer did their job.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2015)

Something doesn't add up here. It sounds like the stove missed some assembly steps and QC. Hard to say why. Maybe it was the last made before a holiday weekend. This can happen with any and all stoves out there, even the best. We've heard tales of welds missed, cast iron joints not sealed, gaskets not glued, etc.. for practically every stove made. It's not typical, though this can happen with almost any mass produced item, not just stoves. What's important is how the problem is dealt with.

I'd push for a replacement stove, not a rebuild. You paid for a new, properly working stove. Let the dealer sell the rebuild at their own risk.


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## brad wilton (Feb 19, 2015)

hey quadrafire stop jerking him around and give him new stove .trust  me you are losing potential  buyers en masse. i know with crappy service like that i'll never buy one


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## Kobeman (Feb 19, 2015)

Wow, another damn month  and no action, Makes me wonder if I should get rid of mine before I need any service.  don't care if it is your peak season, you get off your ass and go fix the problem, I'm in the power generation business, and although extremely rare I've had to pull a couple generators back out and replace them with different ones over the years, then I know the customer was taken care of, and happy,  and I could work things out with the factory as their timeline seemed fit while the unit sat in my shop waiting its fate.  All the customer needs to know is they now have a functioning unit.  Might be time for the OP to get an Attorney....


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## Hoozie (Feb 19, 2015)

Sheesh, this is getting (has been) ridiculous...



bholler said:


> if i was closer i would come do it my self but bucks co is at least 3 hours from me and i am not driving that far



I got $5 for your trip, anyone else?


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## northwinds (Feb 20, 2015)

Hoozie said:


> Sheesh, this is getting (has been) ridiculous...
> 
> 
> 
> I got $5 for your trip, anyone else?



Kickstarter for bholler inspection?  I'd be in for $5.  That's half the cost of a movie, and this would be more entertaining.  

I'm starting to feel guilty about  my Isle Royale being problem-free for years.


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## Warm_in_NH (Feb 20, 2015)

Just remember we know a whole lot about one side of this story. 

There's at least two other stories here, the dealer and corporate and both of those should really bite their lip if they have anything negative to say.

Yes, it appears to us that it should be taken care of but it's been over a year and hasn't, I'm guessing that there may be other factors at play here. If not, I would certainly be getting an attorney involved.


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## northwinds (Feb 20, 2015)

Warm_in_NH said:


> Just remember we know a whole lot about one side of this story.
> 
> There's at least two other stories here, the dealer and corporate and both of those should really bite their lip if they have anything negative to say.
> (snip).



I totally agree.  That's why it would be interesting to have a neutral third party look at the stove/setup.  I guess it's possible this is too far gone for 
that to happen if litigation is even a consideration.


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## Jags (Feb 20, 2015)

northwinds said:


> I'm starting to feel guilty about  my Isle Royale being problem-free for years.


I have had to tap the right hand door hinge pin down twice now. In only 12 years. Piece of junk


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## Kobeman (Feb 20, 2015)

I was just hoping for a solid diagnosis so we can learn what caused it to run like this, it sucks when a symptom gets posted and no fix when searching the forums


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## brad wilton (Feb 21, 2015)

he must be able to burn 50 quads at once thats why there a platinum dealer


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## js156 (Feb 22, 2015)

Warm in NH,
Why should Quad "really bite their lip if they have anything negative to say"? Maybe if its useful I, and other readers, would benefit by it- as Kobeman is suggesting. I've been trying to get help now for a year. The problem IS that noone gets back to you. Now included.
Also, one side of the story well documented with photos and videos I might add. I have even more that I haven't posted.
At this point all it looks like is they don't want to stand behind their warranty. (Since they are not)


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## Warm_in_NH (Feb 23, 2015)

As a corporation, it's never a good thing to speak negatively in any way about your customers,  it's just a basic rule of business. So, if there were an issue with the end user, I wouldn't expect them to air it on an Internet forum. 

Third party tech basically said your stove either missed half of its assembly steps or has been over fired to the point of falling apart. Which was it? Delivered in poor shape or ruined by use? I wouldn't let the guy leave my house without having something in writing. Can you post a copy of his report? 

It is a shame that you laid out a lot of money, a year has gone by and you're no better off than you were when this started. 

As for Quad, now that corporate seems to be involved, regardless of outcome, I would've expected a resolution to this by now. The, "sorry were a month out" response can apply to new callers, but it's insulting to you at this point, a year into this mess. Your call should take priority at this point and someone should be personally assigned to your issue until it is fully resolved, and it's overdue by now.


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## js156 (Feb 23, 2015)

Something worked, I received a call today from the new dealer, who was here to look at the stove on the 4th, and they said that they had received authorization to order me a replacement Isle Royale.
Fabulous!
A very special thank you to all the folks here that helped me through this, it is greatly appreciated. I also want to thank Chris from Quadrafire for stepping in and getting involved. It is greatly appreciated. I look forward to simply enjoying a fire without having to video tape it!
Thanks again!


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## begreen (Feb 23, 2015)

Great news. Hope you can put all of this behind you soon.


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## Jags (Feb 24, 2015)

Fantastic.  You will finally get to see what this stove can do for you.


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## northwinds (Feb 24, 2015)

This thread was a long and winding road, but at least it had a happy ending.


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## Warm_in_NH (Feb 24, 2015)

Great!


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## MattFoley772 (Feb 28, 2015)

js156 said:


> Something worked, I received a call today from the new dealer, who was here to look at the stove on the 4th, and they said that they had received authorization to order me a replacement Isle Royale.
> Fabulous!
> A very special thank you to all the folks here that helped me through this, it is greatly appreciated. I also want to thank Chris from Quadrafire for stepping in and getting involved. It is greatly appreciated. I look forward to simply enjoying a fire without having to video tape it!
> Thanks again!


That's great but who's gonna install it? I would not think this was resolved until after it was installed and you verified it worked without any problems. I would get everything in writing. You do not want to be left hanging again if there are any problems.


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## rdust (Feb 28, 2015)

MattFoley772 said:


> That's great but who's gonna install it?



I'd imagine that js156 will install it or the stove shop will for a fee.  I don't think stove warranties cover removal and install.  The same stove is being put in it's place, the pipe is the same, location is the same.  Move the old one off the hearth and new one on, doesn't get much easier than that!


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## js156 (Mar 1, 2015)

Hey Matt, I believe the dealer is going to install it because they said that they could not do so until I had removed my damper. Apparently, the damper is against code for this stove. 
Yesterday, I had the damper almost horizontal with the primary closed and it still climbed to 725. I won't miss that!


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## begreen (Mar 1, 2015)

Damper is against code? I'd ask the dealer for the specifics and the code section. There are several modern EPA stoves that specify adding a key or butterfly damper if draft is too strong.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 2, 2015)

js156 said:


> I mentioned before that the flames seem concentrated on the rear right side of my stove. Tonight, I saw flames coming out of the inside, side of my stove where the vertical brick butt into a vertical piece of steel that is on each side of the stove behind the cast iron side panels.





rideau said:


> I definitely see what you are talking about.  There is a steady torch coming from one area of the stove, as opposed to active flames moving around.


Huge air leak there. 


js156 said:


> Five leaks, previously all at the same time; when my stove was new, and just out of the box.





northwinds said:


> the installation required a really tall chimney for an easy breathing stove





MattFoley772 said:


> reading your posts I can't tell what initially caused your hot burns. Perhaps operator error (sorry but you seemed confused about your air controls in the beginning so this seems possible), perhaps a poor gasket job at factory, perhaps you got unlucky and got a defective stove. Any of these could cause overfiring, which could lead to cracking or warping, which could cause an air leak you can't fix





js156 said:


> none of this would have happened in the first place if my dealer did their job.





js156 said:


> This was definitely a jump in the water and learn to swim experience.





northwinds said:


> I'm starting to feel guilty about  my Isle Royale being problem-free for years.


That's a problem when a new burner gets a stove. There's a learning curve, most don't realize it and are gonna have a hard time getting up to speed. That's where the dealer/installer need to be competent, but I don't think many are....at least not to the level that's needed. I don't know what the answer is. The mfgr. wants to sell stoves but they have no way of insuring that they have good dealers/installers, and they are selling to the same buyers that need to have printed on a dessicant pac, "Do Not Eat," and are _never_ going to read a manual. Sounds like in JS' case it was a perfect storm; Wrong stove for a tall chimney, inexperience with burning a tube stove and knowing what to do in case the stove is burning too hot, no help from the dealer, etc. Luckily for me, I started reading and learning here before I bought expensive stoves, and possibly burned them up. Still, when I got the Keystone, it had a leaking air seam from day one. I kept an eye on in and took the stove offline when it started going to 500 with the air cut all the way. But the fact that the air leak steadily got worse even though I was burning it moderately indicates to me the shortcoming of cemented-seam stoves; They are all going to eventually need to be torn down and re-built. Rinse and repeat every decade or so. Sure, you can just blob some cement over the bad seams but once you are to that point, it's going to be a constant battle of sticking your fingers in the dike like the little Dutch(west) boy.  


js156 said:


> they said that they had received authorization to order me a replacement Isle Royale.





js156 said:


> Yesterday, I had the damper almost horizontal with the primary closed and it still climbed to 725. I won't miss that!


I think it's quite possible that Quad has bent over backwards here. Sure, the dealer should have been on top of the situation, but... The stove was probably over-fired from the tall stack, busting the seam cement and possibly warping parts, which may well have led to a worse situation than you originally had with any factory defects. Not bustin' on ya; I could have easily have done the same before I started reading here. It will be interesting to see how much lower you can run the new stove. Even though it's new, you are still going to have to check all the gaskets and keep an eye on how the stove is burning for signs of air leaks, now that you know more. That's why they say in the manual that over-firing voids the warranty; It's the only way they have to protect themselves from new burners that think running a stove isn't rocket science, when it really is.


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## js156 (Mar 4, 2015)

Woody Stover,
You forgot to quote the parts regarding the dealers service tech who wouldn't address the loose glass panels and who also did not believe in the dollar bill test. As far as manuals, not only do they get read they are also all saved in a in a hanging file labeled as such. I personally think the installers should have given the stove a going over for leaks before they left but the interest wasn't there. Wasn't my chimney 3" short too?
I do hope that the tall chimney isn't my problem because it is still just as tall and the new dealer and Quad are letting me do it so...Actually the new dealer doesn't think the chimneys height is an issue at all. He said that he has had them a lot higher than that.

Begreen, I don't have the code section yet but when I do I'll post it.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 4, 2015)

js156 said:


> Woody Stover, You forgot to quote the parts regarding the dealers service tech who wouldn't address the loose glass panels and who also did not believe in the dollar bill test. As far as manuals, not only do they get read they are also all saved


Like I said, I'm not trying to put it on you, just speaking generally. You've certainly gone a lot farther than the average buyer would in trying to resolve the issues. I think the dealers are the weak link, as you pointed out. They like the money from the sale, but a lot don't seem willing or able to back the product/install like they should be doing.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 9, 2015)

js156 said:


> Woody Stover,
> You forgot to quote the parts regarding the dealers service tech who wouldn't address the loose glass panels and who also did not believe in the dollar bill test. As far as manuals, not only do they get read they are also all saved in a in a hanging file labeled as such. I personally think the installers should have given the stove a going over for leaks before they left but the interest wasn't there. Wasn't my chimney 3" short too?
> I do hope that the tall chimney isn't my problem because it is still just as tall and the new dealer and Quad are letting me do it so...Actually the new dealer doesn't think the chimneys height is an issue at all. He said that he has had them a lot higher than that.
> 
> Begreen, I don't have the code section yet but when I do I'll post it.


Close reading of the Isle Royale manual (version March 21, 2013) raises some questions. I wonder if Quadrafire is aware of this ambiguity in their manual.

1. Excerpts on code:
NOTE: This installation must conform with local codes. In the absence of local codes you must comply with the UL1482, UL737, (UM) 84-HUD and NPFA211 in the U.S.A. and the ULC S627-93 and CAN/CSA-B365 Installation C odes in Canada.
vs.
Check building codes prior to installation.
• Installation MUST comply with local, regional, state and national codes and regulations.​Which is it: local code or local, regional, state and national codes?

2. Excerpts on chimney height:
This product was designed for and tested on a 6 inch ( 152mm) chimney, 12 to 14 feet (420-480cm) high, (includes stove height) measured from the base of the appliance to the top of the chimney (not including chimney cap). T he further your stack height or diameter varies from this configuration, the possibility of performance problems exists.
vs.
Must terminate at least 3 feet (91cm) above the roof
and at least 2 feet (61cm) above any portion of the
roof within 1 0 feet (305cm).
vs.
These are safety requirements and are not meant to ensure proper flue draft.
vs.
Chimney height may need adjustment if smoking or
overdraft occurs.
vs.
Check for correct vent height; too much vertical
height creates overdrafting.​Let's review: stove was designed for chimney height 12-14 ft. Suppose following 2-3-10 rule results in chimney height of 24 ft. and therefore overdrafting. Ok, tell me how to adjust the height (lower the height) without violating the 2-3-10 rule. Show me the code that addresses this.

3. Excerpt on overfiring:

Do NOT Overfire - If appliance or chimney connector glows, you are overfiring.​So, stove can be overdrafting and reading 750 degrees on top but that's ok as long as it's not glowing?


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## brad wilton (Mar 9, 2015)

Instruction manuals for wood stoves seem to be very vague at times .mine was a photocopy that basically said it burns wood


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## surfing woodsman (Mar 9, 2015)

Getting into this chat a little late but I have used pallet wood cut down to small kindling size to get the heat back up in a short period of time.  Not to familiar with this stove but if it has a cat then i would disengage it before you reload and allow for a straight draft if applicable.  My old Vermont Encore had that ability and prevented smoke back.  I have found that the manual for the NC-30 to be helpful..


http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/e3/e3dda524-8c99-482d-af74-764abbb59fef.pdf


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2015)

The local inspecting authority, usually at the county or township level ultimately has the final say. State or national code can be adopted or sometimes not. Rules often have exceptions. Also, there are different codes and regs for different components of an installation. The stove and flue are under different regs than the mechanical and building codes that say where a stove or return vent near the stove can be placed, or not. Some jurisdictions allow stoves to be put in a garage for example, though most do not. Maine is the only state I think that still allows two devices on one chimney.Then there a

I don't see anything in the manual or code that prohibits or suggests a key damper is not a good solution for overdrafting. Quad is telling you what they tested the stove with. They are not telling you the installation limits for chimney height. Of course a 2 story house install is going to have a taller chimney than a one story install. They don't need to state the obvious.

Not all manuals are created equal. Some lack even the basics, like the stove measurements. Some sound more like a lawyer wrote them than a knowledgeable writer. It's rare to find one that is strong on all accounts and variables that one can come across in varied installations. Field experience, code and installer knowledge are all valuable when solving an installation problem. In this case, Quad has given some guidance. Most stoves will list 15-16ft chimney height for what the stove has been tested with. 12 ft is unusual and an indication that the stove is a easy-breathing stove. Field experience has proven this true. As far as when to add a damper to reduce draft is a tougher question. It often needs to be judged by the home. We have seen here repeatedly where one person will have a 20ft chimney that "draws like a freight train" and another with a 24' chimney that is having draft problems. There are interior and exterior influences on draft that are hard to capture entirely in documentation. In part, this is why on the first page they say:
_Installation and service of this appliance should be performed by qualified personnel. Hearth & Home Technologies recommends NFI certified professionals, or technicians supervised by an NFI certified professional._


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## Woody Stover (Mar 9, 2015)

MattFoley772 said:


> Close reading of the Isle Royale manual (version March 21, 2013) raises some questions. I wonder if Quadrafire is aware of this ambiguity in their manual.


We must be interpreting it differently; That all makes sense to me.


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## MattFoley772 (Mar 9, 2015)

begreen said:


> The local inspecting authority, usually at the county or township level ultimately has the final say. State or national code can be adopted or sometimes not. Rules often have exceptions. Also, there are different codes and regs for different components of an installation. The stove and flue are under different regs than the mechanical and building codes that say where a stove or return vent near the stove can be placed, or not.


"Rules have exceptions" and "use a qualified installer" may be true but it's not very specific to this situation (overdraft).

Inspector has final say...based on the code. Any exceptions must be allowed by code. His authority does not give him the right to make exceptions to code; it gives him the right to enforce code. Would you agree? We agree that the IR manual offers no help about fixing overdraft, so I'm back to my question: Someone show me the code that the inspector or installation professional can cite as a solution to overdraft, such as "the 2-3-10 height may be waived in cases of overdraft" or "install a key damper" or something.


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## js156 (Apr 15, 2015)

Hello! I'm happy to say that my replacement stove was installed on Monday the 13th and it is such a different burning experience. The people who installed it were professional, they didn't rush and stayed a bit to watch the fire and give me some guidance in its operation and care. I can't tell you how surprised I was to see that I could put out the fire by closing the primary. If you remember, I always burned the stove with the primary closed and tried to control the temperature with my damper that I sealed with fire caulk because even when it was horizontal I was still hitting 7 or 800. That day, after 4 hours, I checked the griddle for a temp and I saw 385, without a damper! I was stunned. Naturally I didn't have it stuffed but that never mattered before! Anyway, it's been a long time and I wanted to let you all know how I made out. Thank you all so much and Quad too for stepping in after my dealer disappeared.


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## Jags (Apr 15, 2015)

Excellent.  Its too bad that you had the negative experience in the first place, but now you will be able to see what this stove was designed to do.


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## Warm_in_NH (Apr 15, 2015)

Nice! Good to hear.


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## rideau (Apr 15, 2015)

Very glad to hear that things are sorted out.

Just think what a pleasure your next burning season will be!

Will look forward to seeing your results next year.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm really happy for you, made my day to read this. Complaints about the IR are rare. It is an excellent time proven stove. You should have a much happier time burning next season.


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## northwinds (Apr 17, 2015)

A long strange trip it's been, but you appear set for next year. Glad it all worked out for you, Quad, and the new dealer.


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## MattFoley772 (May 2, 2015)

js156 said:


> Hello! I'm happy to say that my replacement stove was installed on Monday the 13th and it is such a different burning experience. The people who installed it were professional, they didn't rush and stayed a bit to watch the fire and give me some guidance in its operation and care. I can't tell you how surprised I was to see that I could put out the fire by closing the primary. If you remember, I always burned the stove with the primary closed and tried to control the temperature with my damper that I sealed with fire caulk because even when it was horizontal I was still hitting 7 or 800. That day, after 4 hours, I checked the griddle for a temp and I saw 385, without a damper! I was stunned. Naturally I didn't have it stuffed but that never mattered before! Anyway, it's been a long time and I wanted to let you all know how I made out. Thank you all so much and Quad too for stepping in after my dealer disappeared.


Not enough info in your post. 

You are comparing apples to oranges. You need to compare the hottest temp after the same time using same amount of wood, same air setting, same outside temperature. You say new stove was 385 degrees after 4 hours vs. old stove 800 degrees...after 4 hours? I will bet you $10 your old stove was not 800 degrees after 4 hours.

"The people who installed..." Who might that be? How'd you find them? What did they charge? 

Did they do anything other than swap stoves, such as change chimney height? 

Did they look at the old stove and determine what caused the problems you had?


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## bholler (May 2, 2015)

MattFoley772 said:


> You are comparing apples to oranges. You need to compare the hottest temp after the same time using same amount of wood, same air setting, same outside temperature. You say new stove was 385 degrees after 4 hours vs. old stove 800 degrees...after 4 hours? I will bet you $10 your old stove was not 800 degrees after 4 hours.
> "The people who installed..." Who might that be? How'd you find them? What did they charge?
> Did they do anything other than swap stoves, such as change chimney height?
> Did they look at the old stove and determine what caused the problems you had?


The old stove had leaky gaskets which that combined with the high chimney caused over fires which damaged the stove further.  The op said the stove works better than the old one ever did that is what matters you dont need an exact equal comparison it works now that is what matters.


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