# Flush insert or sticking out?



## TresK3 (Jul 19, 2007)

Since it looks like I can't put in my first-choice insert, I'm rethinking priorities.  Originally, we wanted an insert that would stick out on the hearth a bit (like the Hearthstone Clydesdale), but it looks like we'd need a mantle shield to protect our wood trim.  I'd rather avoid the mantle shield, but it may prove a necessary evil to achieve our goals.

Here's my question: if we go for a flush fitting insert (ie: the Lopi Declaration or one of its sisters) will we lose a significant amount of heat output?  Either way, we would use a blower to distribute the heat, but when the electricity is out will a flush insert still give us some heat?  How much do we sacrifice in effectivness with a flush insert, vs one that's 6-8 inches out on the hearth?


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## jqgs214 (Jul 19, 2007)

From my limited experience, My first insert was flush mounted and did not distribute heat well without the blower on.  My new insert PE Pacific is not flush mounted so I'll let ya know this winter but my guess is I'll still need the blower.


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## burntime (Jul 19, 2007)

Get the blower and fogetaboudit!  You need a blower with an insert to distribute the heat.  The blower will pull the "lost heat" into the room


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## webbie (Jul 19, 2007)

All things being equal, sticking out is best if it can be done and if heat if the primary concern. For many wood burners, a small hit in efficiency is not a big deal - for instance, the folks who burn a cord or so for entertainment and weekend heat. But if getting the most BTU's out of each piece of wood is the goal, sticking out is the key. In fact, I'll go beyond that and say that a hearth stove without a plate over the fireplace opening is the ideal (sealing plate at the damper).....


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## BrotherBart (Jul 19, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> All things being equal, sticking out is best if it can be done and if heat if the primary concern. For many wood burners, a small hit in efficiency is not a big deal - for instance, the folks who burn a cord or so for entertainment and weekend heat. But if getting the most BTU's out of each piece of wood is the goal, sticking out is the key. In fact, I'll go beyond that and say that a hearth stove without a plate over the fireplace opening is the ideal (sealing plate at the damper).....



Amen. After replacing the old faithful insert with a hearth stove set 1/2 into the fireplace I ain't ever going back. I still use a blower though to get that warm air out into the rest of the house. And the stored heat radiating out of that masonry in the firebox after the stove dies down is fantastic. All these years that had been going up the chimney.


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## Highbeam (Jul 19, 2007)

"Here’s my question: if we go for a flush fitting insert (ie: the Lopi Declaration or one of its sisters) will we lose a significant amount of heat output?  Either way, we would use a blower to distribute the heat, but when the electricity is out will a flush insert still give us some heat?  How much do we sacrifice in effectivness with a flush insert, vs one that’s 6-8 inches out on the hearth?" 

1)Without a blower yes, with a blower the efficiencies are similar. 
2)It will give you some heat with no blower but severely reduced in my experience. In a power outage situation expect to sleep in the stove room.
3) Very little with a blower, without a blower I would say quite a bit. 

I knocked down the masonry chimney and am putting in a freestanding stove for many of the same reasons. In my case, the noise of the blower was also a factor. Silent heat is cool. 

Check out the Hearthstone with a mantleshield. I would rather have a flush mounted insert and blower than have to deal with a mantleshield. The flush mounts can really look nice.


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## begreen (Jul 19, 2007)

Manufacturer's heat shields have to cover a large variety of installs. This makes them IMHO, butt ugly. There is an alternative that is a bit less visually obtrusive. I believe one can have the shield attached to the mantle instead of the stove. This would be a custom piece of metal bent to conform to the mantle's profile with a 1" standoff from the mantle. That way it conforms to the mantle dimensions and has a significantly smaller visual impact.


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## karl (Jul 19, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> All things being equal, sticking out is best if it can be done and if heat if the primary concern. For many wood burners, a small hit in efficiency is not a big deal - for instance, the folks who burn a cord or so for entertainment and weekend heat. But if getting the most BTU's out of each piece of wood is the goal, sticking out is the key. In fact, I'll go beyond that and say that a hearth stove without a plate over the fireplace opening is the ideal (sealing plate at the damper).....




Could you also use an insert without the Surround installed?  Would it be safe and effective put louvers in the surround and maybe a fan to help circulate the around the insert?


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## R&D Guy (Jul 20, 2007)

I haven't seen any insert that heats great without the blower on.  Personally I like the flush look.  I think most inserts that stick out look like just that; a insert - not a fireplace.  

Being in the industry, I'm sure we've all been pulled into a room by a happy insert owner only to see something that looks as if someone cut the legs off a free standing stove and got it stuck 1/2 way into the existing fireplace.   :bug: 

Very true about the power outage issue though; your not going to heat the whole house without the blowers, but you will be able to regulate the heat output better when you want to.

My $0.02


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## TresK3 (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks for all the thoughts!  We'd really love a hearth stove, but it would require too much remodeling (read: butchering up some of the charming things we bought the house for) to gain the necessary clearances.  We seem to lose power a lot in this house (more times in the past 6 months here than in 15 yrs at the old place), but the power isn't usually out for long - a few hours, max.  If we need to sleep in the living room once a year or so, we can handle that.   I'm thinking flush...

Thanks again.  I'll probably start a new thread with flush insert questions.


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## clkeever (Jul 20, 2007)

I would indeed go with an insert that sticks out: I've sold several Lopi inserts( ie the Revere or Freedom ) that stick out and just really heat up an area well. If they have a blower it further assists in the distribution of heat.
thanks
ck


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## cornbread (Jul 20, 2007)

Forget about power outages.

Get your self a 12-Volt car or deep cycle battery and a small inverter for the blower.

You can run the blower’s on these stove for at least a week 24/7.

Being prepared is the name of the game is it not?


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## karl (Jul 21, 2007)

Cornbread,

How big of a battery are you talking about?  The Summit insert I'm buying has an 80 watt fan on it.  A 225 Amp hour battery will only run that thing for 33.75 hours.  That's pretty good but it's not 24/7.

My math isn't precise but pretty close.  I used 12volts for the battery and I know they put out a little bit more than.

225amp/hour times 12volts equals  2700 watts divided by 80 watts equals 33.75 hours.

Plus the converter is going waste some, maybe alot, of energy converting things, and I bet they shut off at a certain voltage, so you might not be able to drain the battery completely.

I don't mean to be a smart ass.  Actually, after running the numbers, I might pick up a deep cycle battery.  The power goes out here quite a bit, but usually not for more than 5 or 6 hours.  Usually the house doesn't cool off much in that time.

Oh and don't use a car battery.  You will kill it very quickly running it completely down.  They don't have very thick plates in them.


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## cornbread (Jul 21, 2007)

That is one big fan you have there. Not everyone has an insert that large.

I have Regency that requires nothing like that kind of wattage.

Will les see hear one battery will run your Summit insert for 33.75 hours and your power goes out quite a bit, but usually not for more than 5 or 6 it sounds like one deep cycle batter would do you just fine (33.75 hours – 6 hours = 27.75) and have a little time left over for the next power outage.


From my experience and knowledge about West Virginia I would be concerned about lousing my power for longer than a few hours you do have some putty good snows up there.


I don’t mean to be a smart ass.  Actually but I believe most people posting on this board have a purity good idea as to what I was talking about.

I will allow others to determine wither you were actually trying to be smart ass or not.

Good Day


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## BrotherBart (Jul 21, 2007)

cornbread said:
			
		

> That is one big fan you have there. Not everyone has an insert that large.
> 
> I have Regency that requires nothing like that kind of wattage.
> 
> ...



The blowers on Regency inserts are rated at .6 AMPS at 115 volts. Pretty much works out to 70 watts which isn't "nothing like that kind of wattage".


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## stoveguy2esw (Jul 21, 2007)

as a whole , i prefer the "sticking out" kind , as you have a surface to heat up a can of soup or even more in the event of a longer than normal power outage, as for the heat output , i wouldnt think a flush would give as much but i wouldnt think it would be dramatically less. with no fan either style will lose a pretty big chunk of its output simply because the bulk of the unit is inside the chimney. as for safety burning an insert without the shroud, personally , if its installed correctly and the flue system is sealed, blocker plate in place ,etc.. there shouldnt be a safety issue, the louvered cover plate mentioned in this thread is interesting if above criteria are met. actually,BB's setup seems to be similar to an "unshielded insert" and works well for him (im prejudiced though as its my stove "wink wink" ) i guess getting back to the shroud, only hesitation i would have with proper install and flue connection is does it meet code because  the shroud is meant to be there, ELK would have to back me up on that as i have no clue if it  is or not


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## karl (Jul 22, 2007)

How far does the Summit Insert stick out.  Judging from the pictures in the manual, I would guess 6-8 inches.  Is this what you mean by an insert sticking out or do others stick out farther?  Will the little bit it sticks out really help?


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## TresK3 (Jul 22, 2007)

That's pretty much what I'm looking at - an insert that sticks 6-8" out onto the hearth.  And that's the gist of my question; does that little bit matter.  It sounds like the answer is, if you have a blower, no.  If you can't run a blower then it seems like every inch out into the room helps.  Yes?


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2007)

Basically that is correct, but it also depends somewhat on how well the stove's convection system is designed. Some convect better than others without the blower and some radiate heat better than others. This won't be found in the stove specs. Best to get a referral from someone that's heated with the insert during a lengthy power outage.


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## TresK3 (Jul 23, 2007)

OK... HAS anyone heated with the Lopi Declaration/Avalon Perfect Fit/Xtrordinair FPX 33 Elite during a prolonged power outage?  How did it perform?


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## Rhone (Jul 23, 2007)

Well, with the Hearthstone models that "sticking" out a little bit makes a HUGE difference.  I found out the hard way when I installed my Hearthstone Clydesdale flush and noticed where the heat blows out ended 5" behind the surround.  I was wondering how the heck is the heat supposed to "jump" the five inches and come out into the living space?  I pulled it out so it's sticking on the hearth as much as possible and then the channels lined up with openings of the surround.  They should've designed some sort of flexible or sliding channels so when you have it flush you can extend them so the air comes into the living space.  Not a big issue, I don't recommend installing it flush anway it's not as efficient.  

As for the "cooking" surface, it's a hoax on an insert.  With the Hearthstone Clydesdale it's insulated and although I don't have a thermometer I'm certain mine doesn't get much above 200-300F.  I put a frozen pizza piece on it once, and after 50 minutes it was just starting to get above room temperature.  I know the Osburns have air blowing under their "cooking" surface keeping it cool, the Pacific Energy Summit insert must have theirs insulated how they can have such tight clearances above if not.  An inserts "cooking" surface is more like a warming surface... you can warm soup and other things on it, but "cooking" is stretching things.

Don't worry about power!  Every insert will heat your house during a power outtage, you'll hardly notice any difference without power for 6-8 hours with an insert, after 24 hours the extremeties may be too cool to hang out in, and that's the temperature they may stay at until power comes back.  But, how often do you lose power for 24+ hours?  It happens here about once every 25 years, purchasing something based on its power-out performance I seriously risk the thing living out its life and being replaced without ever needing that feature.  I've had my new insert for 2 winters now, haven't lost power for more than 2 hours yet.  I'm waiting for an extended power out so I can tell people how it does... maybe in another decade it will happen but in the meantime I really enjoying looking and loving what I picked out all year round.  The most important thing, is getting the one you like the look/features of.  This is something you'll be looking at all year, every day, summer, fall, winter, and spring.  You BETTER like what you're looking at  Get the one you like the look/features of and if you lose power for 24+ hours and afterward feel that's something that could use improving with converters, batteries, etc. then get it.  But, chances are you may find it just fine without any of that, or not worth the effort.


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## begreen (Jul 23, 2007)

Does vary from stove to stove. We inherited a Majestic insert with the house. Without the blower I had rigged up for it, it was a mediocre heater. Our neighbor's Lopi Answer insert seemed to have a similar issue, maybe about 50% as much heat without the blower running. But if you live in an area of rare outages or have a generator, this may be a non-issue.


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## Kilted (Jul 24, 2007)

TresK3 said:
			
		

> OK... HAS anyone heated with the Lopi Declaration/Avalon Perfect Fit/Xtrordinair FPX 33 Elite during a prolonged power outage?  How did it perform?



I have a Avalon Perfect Fit insert.  You do not need a power outage to see how well an insert will preform when the power is out.  

Just turn off the fan

This is exactly what happened to me last heating season.  In this case the fan would not turn on.  First the immediate aera got very hot.  If you have a wood mantle there might be a problem along with any othe flamables.  There still was a lot of heat from radiation.  After about a 1/2 hour a room convection current setup.  The whole front panel became very hot.  I setup a floor fan to blow into the front panel and after a few minutes I was able to remove the front panel so the fan could blow directly into the insert cavity.

I would really not recommend operating the stove for any length of time with the fan off.  The stove is designed to operate with the fan running to remove the heat.  Without the fan it takes a long time for heat to seep out of the stove aera.  With the firebox inside the fireplace cavity more heat will just be used to heat the brick.  This stove is really designed to have a fan running internal prefered or external in an emergency.  A low cost inverter from a electronics store and marine trolling battery is all that is need.

How much do you really need to worry about this, depends how big of a fire you have and if you have a floor fan.

I got everything working again, it looks like there was a loose connection as after everything was back together every thing worked.  I did add a thermostat by-pass switch.  The thermostat seems to be poorly placed as the stove can get really hot before the fan kicks on.  If you only want a small fire this can be a problem  --  at least on my stove.

--  Brandy


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## rice_sean (Nov 21, 2007)

Hello All (sorry, long noob post),

So I am a complete noob on this wood heating thing as well, but this entire flush vs sticking out conversation is part of my own dilemma. If any  Avalon / Lopi / FireX flush insert owners, and Quad 2700I owners, and all other folk, could lend experience and wisdom, it would be very helpful. I will try to be concise, but not really. This info rocks, and I already know more because of this site.

~ 2100 sq ft colonial. Steps near front door, 36w x 24 tall x 22 deep open, outside wall, outside chimney, masonry FP in very back family room.

- Forced air nat. gas heat. Could use fan to distribute heat from an insert, as it seems heat would build up a bit in the back room. 8 foot ceilings, not very open floor plan.

- Back Room is 350 sq ft, short hall to kitchen and basement steps, then kitchen, then front room, then stairs to 2nd floor. Couple of corners to do all that. Downstairs total is ~ 1000 sq ft. ( 50% limestone floors (kitch and part of front room), 20% hardwood, 20% carpet (back room with FP.)

- built 1967, additional insulation in attic. Typical yearly nat. gas use inc. cook stove, dryer & hwh is 1250 ccf. 80% eff. furnace.

- Walls are insulated. Not super tight weather sealing, but pella dual pane wood frame windows. 

- Wife prefers 68 - 70 downstairs during day, and about 63 upstairs in bedrooms at night. Due to odd airflow I think, I do not get heat build upstairs during the day, perhaps cuz bottom of steps in near a slightly drafty front door and alcove, and perhaps forced air is balanced well?

-----

Here is the current situation, please correct my assumptions and add some knowledge for me where I lack it:

I think the Quadra Fire 2700I is about the right size to add some supplemental heat without going over board on budget and heat output. Mostly evening and weekend burns.

Wife wanted just to convert our old, ugly, unused open gas logs to a reg. wood FP with some doors.

I want cleanliness, heat, safety and efficiency out of it if we are going to go through the trouble of using wood.

She cares about looks and budget, and feels that the common style 'stove in a FP' that most inserts are just look 'out of place'. I like the 2700I and think it looks not too bad.

But I see her point, esp. for city folks who like the look of a sterotypical fireplace, and have no 'form follows function' eye for beauty that I have and I suspect most people on this forum would have, who perhaps grew up around wood stoves and inserts.

But she makes a VERY valid point in that regard.

Why do they look that way (a stove with no legs and a TON of black around, when all some people want is the look of a reg. FP?) Perhaps a Declaration that does not go as deep, but is the same height and width, would be a good competitor to nasty open FP with some FP doors?

Traditional perception people want ALL GLASS to view the fire; perhaps manufacturers will continue this trend but not make them quite as deep? Like a 2 cu ft box instead of Lopi 2.9 cu ft? They could convert more customers if they had more viewing glass and did not over heat them out of tier house when all they did was want a nicer looking FP that is burned occasionally...

OK I digress...

I showed her the Lopi Declaration. She said that was much better looking than the Quad. I am afraid of price difference and of over-heating the back room with a Declaration. I would recess mount both due to my rough stone FP face. Lopi would just need its face, no surround, I woulduse angle iron just inside FP box to be a 2 inch 'surround'. I think it would look awesome, like the pictures in the Lopi brochure, with stone face and no black surround.

-----

Here are my main questions now that you know my situation:

For ambiance / everyday fires, can I maintain a 1/2 load into the Lopi (to replicate a full load of the Quad), and burn med or high, without over heating too bad?

Does a large fireplace insert NEED a med or large load on med or full air to be considered an Efficient, Hot fire? Or is a half load on med or high OK too if I don't need a ton of heat on that day?

Is that better for my chimney and the environment then putting 3/4 or full load and choking it down? I read that makes for a dirtier less efficient fire.

Could I leave the blower off for most of the time, especially if it is running hotter then I intended? I know that wastes heat in the masonary box, but oh well I suppose...

I would not mind loading more often into a half empty firebox for the evening burns before bed. That would be the price to pay for a nice large view I think.

So the bottom line is that looks point us to the Lopi, but I think my BTU req. and budget is along the lines of the Quad 2700I. I know they say don't over size and smolder, but can you oversize the insert and go half loads but hot?

I have to have reline of 18 foot chimney. Should I get the liner insulated? Clay tiles in chimney seem OK, is air gap insulation between liner and clay OK?

Any ideas on prices of a Declaration? I do know prices for the quad, I have a close dealer.

You guys rock, and thanks in advance, sorry so long.

cabot-trail
Sterling Heights MI - Just north of Detroit.


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## Kilted (Nov 21, 2007)

Cabot-trail;

I cannot answer all of your questions but I can give you my experience.

First, this insert Avalon Perfect-fit or Lopi Declaration are designed to be operated with the fan running all the time.  With out the fan the insert will overheat with a medium fire.

The fan motor is on a speed control and there is a wide range of adjustment.  At the lower speed with any kind of normal conversation, radio, tv, etc. you will not hear it.  I would almost say that the fan could run even faster at the high end, with a full firebox.  Speed control is mounted on the right side of the surround.  Where ever you put it, keep away from the heat.  I have also wired in a control bypass switch.

Second, yes you can move the hot air around with the furnace fan but remember the furnace is not producing the heat and the fan draft may feel cold.

Third, size of burn AFTER the insert is hot you can burn a smaller fire but remember you still need enough fire to keep a secondary burn light.  I live in Mountain View, CA a few miles from Stanford University.  The climate here is so mild that I cannot keep a clean daytime burn running.  I have only managed about twice in two years, it just is not normally cold enough.  Your in MI. that may not be a problem.

Fourth, chimney make sure that the chimney is sealed at the top and restricted air flow at the bottom.  Some one else can chime in here, your outside flue will cause a problem BUT you have enough height to give a good draft.

Fifth, my previous insert hung out into the room.  Far enough out to be in the way, and not enough to do any good.  A flush unit will give that FP look with a lot more heat.

--  Brandy


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## Gooserider (Nov 22, 2007)

Given your description, I would say that an outside chimney in MI should be insulated, especially since it's a bit on the short side (Not problematically so, but 18' isn't going to draw as well as 25')

Most people find that distributing heated air with the furnace blower is a loosing game - especially if the furnace or any of the ducts run outside the heated envelope of the house - you get enough duct losses to cancel the heat from the insert.

I will let others comment on how well the Lopi Declaration will work in your situation.

Gooserider


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