# Ok, someone talk me out of the panic room. (Generators)



## btuser (Dec 5, 2009)

Were getting ready to celebrate a year since the worst ice storm in forever.  I honored the event by turning out the snowblower, and running the generator.   Boy this generator is getting old.  What happens if the generator doesn't work? Come to think of it, what happens if I can't buy gas?

Long story short I've got a cheap 4k genset that's done me justice for over 10 years, but it won't last forever.  I'd like to have a permanent/pad-mounted setup, and I'm leaning toward diesel because there's no ng on my street.  I'd like to stay under 2k for the whole setup.  I can't justify more than that.  Anything more I might as well buy a new genset every 5 years.

It would be outside in a shed.
It would be diesel, but to be able to run other fuels would be great.
Its got to be around 30 amps continuous. 
Anybody have an opinion on the cheap imported diesel gensets.  Lister clones?

I'm also maybe interested in pursuing some cogeneration/off-grid production (WVO).  Does anyone have a combination system, maybe a batt/inverter setup that gets charged by a genset?  Is it more than just an inverter and deep-cycle batteries?  How long do the batteries last?


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## Highbeam (Dec 5, 2009)

Your thread title has nothing to do with the thread. Perhaps adjust it to ask about gensets. Lots of people love to talk about this stuff.

I run 3500 watt continuous rated genset that cost 250$ and purrs along sipping gasoline. It has worked flawlessly for about 2 years now as needed. 

Rather than looking at diesel, if multi fuels are attractive then you should consider a propane/gasoline/natural gas genset. They are much cheaper and the propane fuel can be stored for a lifetime without spoil. 

I really like the lister clones. They work great but are not practical for most people. The owners will almost all admit that it is a great genset if you are looking for a hobby. 30 amps continuous would put you into the really huge listers.


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## btuser (Dec 5, 2009)

I don't have NG, and propane is almost 2x the cost of heating oil when you factor power.  I'm thinking of the day when I can't by gasoline, hence the reference to a panic room.  Diesel is doable for me.  I've got over 600 gallon  onsite at a time, so I'm sure I could scrounge up enough oil to run a genset for an hour a day for almost 2 years if I had to.   I like diesel.

If I'm gonna do this I'd like to see if I could get something else going at the same time, so with co-generation to run a wvo setup maybe I could get free electric.  By about this time it becomes an expensive hobby I guess, and I realize I'm going overboard.


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## Dune (Dec 6, 2009)

If you are going to co-generate, you need a liquid cooled engine. Do you already have hydronic heat? key factor. Not sure if you can pull this off for $2000. As far as batteries and inverters, might be a lot cheaper to stay grid connected and use the grid as your battery. Does N.H. have net-metering in place?


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## djbutt (Dec 7, 2009)

Long term gasoline storage for a generator can be very difficult.

I have two cars in my garage that hold about 40 gallons of gas total. During winter months I try to keep them full as much as possible. I have a siphon hose and some gas cans. Fresh fuel for the generator anytime I need it.


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## wolfram (Dec 7, 2009)

In order to support the continuous load that you stated, with diesel, and without it being a hobby, $2,000 will likely not do it.  You might consider a used diesel engine-driven welder, which might be had for $4,000 or so depending.  Or, if you have a diesel tractor, you might consider a used PTO-based genset, which would be cheaper.

The guys over at Northern Arizona Wind and Sun are real thorough.  They are obviously heavily into solar, but there are great discussions on off-grid and grid-down applications using generators.  Most of them say to have two generators; large one (~5KW) for non-continuous, occassional large loads and a small one (~2KW) to charge batteries (DC loads or AC with an inverter) while sipping fuel.  Anything along these lines will certainly blow your $2,000 budget.

How about another hobby to help cut costs and increase fun:  Homemade alcohol fuel!


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## Fi-Q (Dec 7, 2009)

For 2000$... not a whole lot of option..... keep your old gas one... it probabbly don'T worth 10$... and it'S good to have a spare..... and then read as much as you can on chinese diesel knock-off. AS per some threads, here and on www.tractorbynet.com (On their forums), some of them are surprisingly good machine for +/- 1000$.

   If you want to take it as a hobby, I think a Listeroid typoe generator is the way to go (I'm starting to lean towards that way myself). A lot of useful info on that online : 
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php
http://www.utterpower.com/

   I'm leaning slowly (may take 10 years to get there.. but eventually ) towards a 1000w PV system with battery and inverter grind tie-off and eventually a good diesel generators (Most likely a lister)... or maybe by then, they will have some good wood gas system available.... that would be cool..... but I'm seeing it more as a hobby..... and Just the grid tie in inverter with 1000w of pv and battery bank is over 10k$............


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## Highbeam (Dec 7, 2009)

So if you haven't looked into the listers recently you will now find that there is some new law or import regulation prohibiting the import of these engines. I don't know if that means that you need to be more creative or if you had better hurry up and buy american stock. I'm not ready so I guess I'll miss the chance. 

Sounds like you're preparing for a doomsday scenario. You already have 600 gallons+ diesel onsite and want to make 30 amps with diesel power. 

Do you have a tractor? That's the only way you'll do it for 2000$. A PTO generator. Some people love them and they make lots of power from existing equipment if you have the tractor. Perhaps you can source a big dead tractor somewhere with a good engine and PTO setup but a busted transmission and get it for cheap. 

Being prepared for doomsday isn't easy or cheap. On the propane issue, you will only have one doomsday so you only need one stockpile of fuel, it likely doesn't matter if the propane costs slightly more than diesel per KwH since you will need to consider the higher cost of the huge diesel engine as well. It's one thing to just want a diesel because it's cool and maybe more durable, it's quite another to justify it based on fuel cost for a low use machine.


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## btuser (Dec 9, 2009)

I've got an oil-fired boiler, so I'm always going to have diesel on hand either for just hot water or heat and hot water.  I don't have the time/land for full-blown wood (or the 12-15k for a full-blown Garn setup).  Even then oil would be a backup.  I've got a diesel truck as well.  I like diesel.  30 amps @ 240v is only 7200 watts, not doomsday scenario but anything diesel I've seen is 10-15k capacity which is too large for me.   My thought is two months, which is about 2x the ice storm of last year delt to East Derry NH.  

But after thinkin' and a thunkin' its starting to look like a 7k propane onan with low miles from an RV is going to be it.  Now, if I can just get my hands on one of those big propane tanks before one of the boiler-makers scoffs it up I'll be all set.  I just got rid of 2-200gal tanks when the propane company threatened to begin charging me rent because I didn't use enough, now I have to replace them.


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## Badfish740 (Dec 9, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> So if you haven't looked into the listers recently you will now find that there is some new law or import regulation prohibiting the import of these engines. I don't know if that means that you need to be more creative or if you had better hurry up and buy american stock. I'm not ready so I guess I'll miss the chance.



I'm not trying to call anyone a liar but I've seen this around before and haven't been able to find any proof.  Is there some EPA website that spells this out?  If it is true that sucks, but there are plenty of other good engines out there.  Surplus Center every so often offers a 14HP rebadged Perkins engine (the last time it was wearing Caterpillar yellow) for about $600.  I'm sure it would do just fine with one of those low tech Chinese generators.  I'm contemplating building in a similar "doomsday" setup when we finally build a home.  I want to take it a bit further with at least a 1000 gallon tank filled with a mixture of waste vegetable oil, #2 fuel oil, and whatever else I can get my hands on for free (drain oil, used transmission fluid, etc...).  I already run my truck on waste vegetable oil via a heated fuel system, so it wouldn't be very hard to rig up a stationary manually controlled heated system for a small diesel genset.


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## wolfram (Dec 10, 2009)

Check out this current EPA form:

EPA Import Form concerning diesel engines

It is nearly impossible to decipher clearly.  Whether or not small lister-types for gensets are allowed to be imported legally (to the USA) is anyone's guess.  There used to be an exemption for small engines and that exemption appears to be absent now.  Perhaps there is an expert around that could help us.


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## btuser (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm thinking I'm going to be right back where I started ( with a small gas-powered portable) by the time I'm done.  After some consideration I don't think I need 15,000 watts and I don't like the idea of burning 1gal/hr when my continuous use would be right along 2000-3000 watts.  I don't need to run an electric dryer or all 4 of my burners + oven when grid power is out.  For a large genset like that propane and diesel are really the only two viable options (it seems) because of the need to have a large amount of fuel to power them.    They also are not kind to well pump motors when governed, or any electronic equipment or compressors for that matter so I'm always weary about using that feature to save fuel.   

I'd like to get a 12-24v genset, have a battery bank, then step up to house current with an inverter.  This way I could run the generator at full-power (max efficiency) for short times and have good clean power for whatever I need in the house, plus an easy plug-n-play for solar if that becomes feasible.    Of course at this rate I'd be looking at $5K+ just for parts, which would pay for about 10 gas-powered gensets for the next 30 years!


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