# Wood Pellets Vs. Natural Gas and Many other Fuel Prices???



## Husky (Nov 20, 2014)

So the other day I was curious what it was costing me to burn my wood pellets compared to running my furnace. Wow I was surprised at the results. I knew their had to be a calculator out there that would do a comparison of fuel prices to BTU output. Found a great one that gives great information. This is what I discovered. At the current rate I am paying for a therm. of natural gas from my last bill, it cost me $0.96 per therm. This is calculated with delivery charges/supply charges and taxes. Wood pellets cost me about $240 a ton this year. When I entered all my information in calculator, it looks like it is costing me around $6.68 more per million BTU to heat my house with my new Accentra 52i. I have been real proud this year that I have not turned on the furnace and have been able to keep my house real warm. Thinking I am saving money, I am really spending more to do this. Time to rethink how I'm heating. I still love the heat I get off the pellet stove when we're home for the evening. You can't beat having our main living space at a toasty 75, so I will definitely still be using the pellet stove but I am not going to try and heat the whole house anymore. Pellet prices need to come down to $150 a ton or gas needs to cost me $1.57 a term to break even.

Here is the link to the calculator if you want to check your price comparison for any type of fuel you use. Check it out.
http://nepacrossroads.com/fuel-comparison-calculator.php


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## xSpecBx (Nov 20, 2014)

Right now, with oil prices being pretty low and the fact that, since I didn't buy pellets till September (so I didn't get the best prices), I'm probably just about breaking even using pellets over oil.  After this heating season I will be looking to buy my pellets in the spring so I can get better prices.

If I had natural gas I probably wouldn't have bothered putting in a pellet stove.


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## moey (Nov 20, 2014)

Ding ding we have a winner. Nice to see someone actually run numbers for how they heat their house.


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## Chitownhillbilly (Nov 20, 2014)

15 years ago I had a snooty salesman come to the door trying to get me to switch NG suppliers.  For switching they were going to lock me in at .24 a therm (yes, 24 cents) for the next 10 years.  At the time we were paying .14 a therm, so I passed.  By the end of that winter it was already at .24 and its never been that low again.  Nearly 1.00 now, and thats still considered the cheapest form for generating heat!

FYI I moved and no longer have an NG option, otherwise I probably wouldn't be hanging around here.


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## Husky (Nov 20, 2014)

xSpecBx said:


> Right now, with oil prices being pretty low and the fact that, since I didn't buy pellets till September (so I didn't get the best prices), I'm probably just about breaking even using pellets over oil.  After this heating season I will be looking to buy my pellets in the spring so I can get better prices.
> 
> If I had natural gas I probably wouldn't have bothered putting in a pellet stove.


I still love a wood or pellet stove in my family room so something was going in no matter what and pellets are much easier to deal with than the wood as I'm getting older. Still very happy with the new pellet stove.


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## Big papa (Nov 20, 2014)

Husky said:


> So the other day I was curious what it was costing me to burn my wood pellets compared to running my furnace. Wow I was surprised at the results. I knew their had to be a calculator out there that would do a comparison of fuel prices to BTU output. Found a great one that gives great information. This is what I discovered. At the current rate I am paying for a therm. of natural gas from my last bill, it cost me $0.96 per therm. This is calculated with delivery charges/supply charges and taxes. Wood pellets cost me about $240 a ton this year. When I entered all my information in calculator, it looks like it is costing me around $6.68 more per million BTU to heat my house with my new Accentra 52i. I have been real proud this year that I have not turned on the furnace and have been able to keep my house real warm. Thinking I am saving money, I am really spending more to do this. Time to rethink how I'm heating. I still love the heat I get off the pellet stove when we're home for the evening. You can't beat having our main living space at a toasty 75, so I will definitely still be using the pellet stove but I am not going to try and heat the whole house anymore. Pellet prices need to come down to $150 a ton or gas needs to cost me $1.57 a term to break even.
> 
> Here is the link to the calculator if you want to check your price comparison for any type of fuel you use. Check it out.
> http://nepacrossroads.com/fuel-comparison-calculator.php


I paid for my pellets last June to last me through the hole winter so I'm not looking at pellet or oil prices right now but I'm sure if I was heating my house to 72-75 degrees with oil even with the price decrease in oil I don't think it would be cheaper.when I run out of pellets I'll check with your calculator at that time but for now my heating bill has been paid for


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## tjnamtiw (Nov 20, 2014)

This calculator is even better since you can enter in information about your hot air ductwork, if you have it.  
http://www.buildinggreen.com/calc/fuel_cost.cfm


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## Tonyray (Nov 20, 2014)

Big papa said:


> I paid for my pellets last June to last me through the hole winter so I'm not looking at pellet or oil prices right now but I'm sure if I was heating my house to 72-75 degrees with oil even with the price decrease in oil I don't think it would be cheaper.when I run out of pellets I'll check with your calculator at that time but for now my heating bill has been paid for


same here...
if I Kept my house at 73-74 degrees[ which we do with the harman] using Oil my furnace would drink oil like a drunken sailor.
No way am I going to go back to keeping the house 67-68 just to save oil regardless of price.
Haven't been this warm in years these past 2 winters.  90 yr Old poorly insulated house.
I also bought  5 tons cheap in the spring from my dealers early buy..


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## bogieb (Nov 20, 2014)

With propane prices at $3 (yeah right - more like 3.39 if I'm lucky) pellets are almost 1/2 the cost per MBTU at 259/ton (what I paid). They are still cheaper by $8 per MBTU when compared to oil prices at this time (I used $3.00 as price point but last I saw it was a little higher).

Heck, I was thinking that the 300/ton that Agway wants is a bit high, but by comparison, I would still save $12/ MBTU. With this info, might have to get some from Agway as they are supposed to have New England Wood Pellets (which people seem to like)


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## Harman Lover 007 (Nov 20, 2014)

We have this discussion in some form or another every year....I have had NG for all of the 19 years I have owned my stoves. It didn't used to be this cheap but it is now. I pay around $1.30/therm. I'll never go away from pellets...well at least until I cant lift the bags anymore....  I keep my house at 72-74 in order to keep the bride happy and comfy. I would never consider doing that with my NG heat....  As we all know, it's all about HER.


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## Lake Girl (Nov 20, 2014)

Happy wife .... Happy life  Options here are pellets, wood, propane and oil.  Got rid of the outside wood boiler for a reason - lots of work.  Our prices are still higher than the US for fossil fuels... Besides I like knowing that the pellets are by-products of other wood processing.


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## Fsappo (Nov 20, 2014)

When I bought my home, it was serviced with natural gas and had a pellet stove.  Pellet stove came out and a wood stove went in within a month.. NYSERDA finally caught on and for this current pellet stove pilot program are excluding people with natural gas service.  For those folks, they are helping them get high efficiency gas furnaces.


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## Bob E (Nov 20, 2014)

Yeah, the previous owner of my house installed my pellet stove, but I'm not really sure why since the house also has a natural gas furnace. This is my first season using the pellet stove. Now that the new fire making toy is wearing off of it I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal. Between the frequent cleaning, the fidgety mechanical nature, the rising pellet prices, and the inability to heat without electricity I suspect this may be my last season using a pellet stove, unless a I can find a much cheaper fuel source or figure out how to make my own pellets. I also wouldn't necessarily say pellet stoves requires less work than a wood stove. The physical labor of cutting and chopping is displaced with cleaning, repairing, and fidgeting. Wood stoves are so simple there is almost nothing to go wrong and every gas furnace I've had is pretty much set it and forget it. I would hate to have to rely on my pellet stove as my only form of heat, I wouldn't sleep. I would constantly be worried if it's working right. Does it need cleaned again? Are the pellets feeding okay? Where to find 2" flex pipe for it? Why does that motor sound so much loader all of a sudden?  
I don't think I've seen an oil tank in or around a house since I was a kid. Everything in my area seems to be wood, natural gas, or LP...


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## SidecarFlip (Nov 20, 2014)

Bob E said:


> Yeah, the previous owner of my house installed my pellet stove, but I'm not really sure why since the house also has a natural gas furnace. This is my first season using the pellet stove. Now that the new fire making toy is wearing off of it I'm having a hard time seeing the appeal. Between the frequent cleaning, the fidgety mechanical nature, the rising pellet prices, and the inability to heat without electricity I suspect this may be my last season using a pellet stove, unless a I can find a much cheaper fuel source or figure out how to make my own pellets. I also wouldn't necessarily say pellet stoves requires less work than a wood stove. The physical labor of cutting and chopping is displaced with cleaning, repairing, and fidgeting. Wood stoves are so simple there is almost nothing to go wrong and every gas furnace I've had is pretty much set it and forget it. I would hate to have to rely on my pellet stove as my only form of heat, I wouldn't sleep. I would constantly be worried if it's working right. Does it need cleaned again? Are the pellets feeding okay? Where to find 2" flex pipe for it? Why does that motor sound so much loader all of a sudden?
> I don't think I've seen an oil tank in or around a house since I was a kid. Everything in my area seems to be wood, natural gas, or LP...


 
Pellets or corn (which your 6039) will readily combust, will never be cheaper than NG, not even come close.  However if you were like me, heating with LNG/Propane, pellets and/or corn will always be a winner.


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## xSpecBx (Nov 20, 2014)

Propane, pricewise, isn't much better than oil.  My only options are propane or oil so pellets were the best alternative.  Its always good to have a second option in case there is a shortage in your primary.  Right now, with oil being relatively cheap, I'm less concerned about using the oil boiler, but in the long run the pellet stove should pay for itself.  Oil will go back up.  It always does.


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## SidecarFlip (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm sure it will eventually.  Processed wood pellets have stayed pretty stagnant in pricing over the last 5 years.  Corn, on the other hand got stupid expensive but is now getting stupid cheap.  If I hadn't pre-bought 5 ton I'd be burning shelled old crop corn right now.


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## Chitownhillbilly (Nov 20, 2014)

Bob E said:


> The physical labor of cutting and chopping is displaced with cleaning, repairing, and fidgeting.



I spend ~30 min a week Cleaning and fidgeting with my Pellet stove. My friend heats with wood and spends every spare waking hour Cutting, Splitting, Stacking and hauling in the Spring and Summer.  I personally don't think it's anywhere close to the same amount of time.


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## moey (Nov 20, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> Pellets or corn (which your 6039) will readily combust, will never be cheaper than NG, not even come close.  However if you were like me, heating with LNG/Propane, pellets and/or corn will always be a winner.



The cost of NG varies by region. Around me NG is about $1.80 therm also about $25 in fees each month. Depending on what your paying for pellets they are on par maybe cheaper. Even oil is on par right now as you dont pay a monthly fee.


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## F4jock (Nov 20, 2014)

Lake Girl said:


> Happy wife .... Happy life  Options here are pellets, wood, propane and oil.  Got rid of the outside wood boiler for a reason - lots of work.  Our prices are still higher than the US for fossil fuels... Besides I like knowing that the pellets are by-products of other wood processing.


Amen Lake! And no matter the fuel cost comparison my lovely, blonde bride that I long ago robbed a cradle to get, enjoys the ambiance of the fire which leads to an evening glass of vino which leads to . . . . As you said, happy wife happy life! And as a bonus, the stove heats the place as well! *Grin*


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## Bob E (Nov 20, 2014)

Chitownhillbilly said:


> spend ~30 min a week Cleaning and fidgeting with my Pellet stove. My friend heats with wood and spends every spare waking hour Cutting, Splitting, Stacking and hauling in the Spring and Summer. I personally don't think it's anywhere close to the same amount of time.


You still have to haul and stack pellets just the same. If you want to buy wood you can do away with the cutting, hauling and most of the splitting and seasoning. When you factor in the cost of gas (truck, saw, and splitter if you're real fancy), time, and chainsaw maintenance buying wood usually isn't much more than cutting it yourself. I'd rather go outside while the wood stove keeps cooking and split a cord than sit here waiting for this pellet stove to shut down and cool off before I can vacuum it out and chisel the crud off the fire pot again... The only advantage for the pellet stove over a wood stove that I see is the ability to control heat output with the press of a button.


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## F4jock (Nov 20, 2014)

Bob E said:


> You still have to haul and stack pellets just the same. If you want to buy wood you can do away with the cutting, hauling and most of the splitting and seasoning. When you factor in the cost of gas (truck, saw, and splitter if you're real fancy), time, and chainsaw maintenance buying wood usually isn't much more than cutting it yourself. I'd rather go outside while the wood stove keeps cooking and split a cord than sit here waiting for this pellet stove to shut down and cool off before I can vacuum it out and chisel the crud off the fire pot again... The only advantage for the pellet stove over a wood stove that I see is the ability to control heat output with the press of a button.


No Cresote? Auto-ignition? Less ash?


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## Husky (Nov 20, 2014)

F4jock said:


> No Cresote? Auto-ignition? Less ash?


Amen. Done the wood for 20+ years. I'll stack 40lb bags any day over handling the wood four times before I burn it. And now my wife doesn't mind helping.


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## Bob E (Nov 20, 2014)

But that is the thing, pellets are less work because you are buying your fuel from someone else rather than procuring it yourself. You can buy wood too. Just as much less work. 
Auto ignition? My stove doesn't have it. Lighting a fire is pretty easy.
Less ash? Yup, packed away in tiny little channels inside the stove that have to be vacuumed but only after the stove has long since stopped making heat. With a wood stove just push the coals aside and scoop the ash out into a pan, throw more wood on, house never cools down.
No creosote? That is a good one, but chimneys and vent pipes have to get cleaned in the off season either way.


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 20, 2014)

Husky said:


> Amen. Done the wood for 20+ years. I'll stack 40lb bags any day over handling the wood four times before I burn it. And now my wife doesn't mind helping.


My buddy always puts on a big show. When watching the ballgame and the TV commercial starts he'll get up and declare "Well, it's time to chop some wood for the fire". Then a minute later he comes back with a bucket of pellets and declares "Man, that's some good exercise".


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## Husky (Nov 20, 2014)

Bob E said:


> But that is the thing, pellets are less work because you are buying your fuel from someone else rather than procuring it yourself. You can buy wood too. Just as much less work.
> Auto ignition? My stove doesn't have it. Lighting a fire is pretty easy.
> Less ash? Yup, packed away in tiny little channels inside the stove that have to be vacuumed but only after the stove has long since stopped making heat. With a wood stove just push the coals aside and scoop the ash out into a pan, throw more wood on, house never cools down.
> No creosote? That is a good one, but chimneys and vent pipes have to get cleaned in the off season either way.


For me I have been buying my wood for the past 8 years. My first 15 years of wood burning I had access to free wood. If I was still able to get free wood and just had my labor I would still have a wood stove. I needed to replace my wood stove due to metal fatigue so I had to make a decision. Changing to a pellet stove was a basically a wash for me. The stove and install were about equal and the amount I will spend on pellets is close to what I was purchasing for wood. If you have ever stacked pellet bags compared to stacking wood you would have to agree that pellets are much easier to handle and I don't need to season my pellets before I use them. I would agree with you that maintenance is quite a bit more with a pellet stove, but it is real easy after you do it a few times. I do like burning wood but pellets are easier and get the job done for me.


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## Ranger72 (Nov 20, 2014)

Based on one of those calculators:  my house:   natural gas= 50.59 per mill BTU
pellets: 18.94 per mill BTU.   Add NYS sales tax on the gas of 2.5% and supply fee of about 11 bucks for every 30 therms. The natural gas bill for just using my hot water heater and oven is roughly 60 bucks a month before touching the NG burner thermostat.   Loooong story short, pellets are much cheaper for me.


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## UpStateNY (Nov 20, 2014)

bogieb said:


> With propane prices at $3 (yeah right - more like 3.39 if I'm lucky).....


My son lives in Brentwood, NH and his neighborhood just negotiated a 12 month lock in rate of $2.19 a gallon for propane.  

$2.50 a gallon propane locked in rate. They will buy your tank. 
Townsend Energy delivers Propane to Brentwood, NH.
Call Bill at 978-705-2323 or 617 893 9711

Rye Energy - propane $1.92  first fill up.
After that $2.19 but no lock in rate
Call Ralph 603-234-1292,


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## Tonyray (Nov 20, 2014)

Husky said:


> For me I have been buying my wood for the past 8 years. My first 15 years of wood burning I had access to free wood. If I was still able to get free wood and just had my labor I would still have a wood stove. I needed to replace my wood stove due to metal fatigue so I had to make a decision. Changing to a pellet stove was a basically a wash for me. The stove and install were about equal and the amount I will spend on pellets is close to what I was purchasing for wood. If you have ever stacked pellet bags compared to stacking wood you would have to agree that pellets are much easier to handle and I don't need to season my pellets before I use them. I would agree with you that maintenance is quite a bit more with a pellet stove, but it is real easy after you do it a few times. I do like burning wood but pellets are easier and get the job done for me.


don't know what the big deal about stackin pellets is.
3 of us loaded 2 tons from the truck into the basement in 20 minutes or so...Done
don't  have to get up in the middle of the night and load more wood...
can go for weeks and not empty the ash pan....and those are just off the top of my head.
but it is fun to read these posts about how great wood burnin is....


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## tjnamtiw (Nov 20, 2014)

Chitownhillbilly said:


> I spend ~30 min a week Cleaning and fidgeting with my Pellet stove. My friend heats with wood and spends every spare waking hour Cutting, Splitting, Stacking and hauling in the Spring and Summer.  I personally don't think it's anywhere close to the same amount of time.


I did that too for many, many years but finally decided I didn't want any more of it after 50 years of pure unloving labor!  If I lived in Pa. still, I'd have a coal stoker and have NO labor except emptying ashes twice a week.


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## whit (Nov 20, 2014)

Three cords of wood delivered, dumped in the driveway, then stacked in in double rows on pallets down the side of the yard. Did that for years. A good several days' work. Then there's the endless process of bringing them in to feed the stove. It's all a nice ritual, something ancient about tending a fire like that even though I didn't chop the trees. But three tons of pellets, stacked in the shed, is far less work. Don't have to knock the snow off 'em to bring 'em in. And one bag is a lot more BTUs than on armload of firewood. The radiant heat is nicer, as is the more alive flame. But the convenience outweighs it for now. 

And where each winter around here has a half-dozen or so homes burn down from wood stoves gone bad, the pellet stove house fire is something that hasn't made the papers yet.


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## SidecarFlip (Nov 20, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> I did that too for many, many years but finally decided I didn't want any more of it after 50 years of pure unloving labor!  If I lived in Pa. still, I'd have a coal stoker and have NO labor except emptying ashes twice a week.


 
In Georgia if it's more than a decoration it's time to move further south...lol


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## tjnamtiw (Nov 20, 2014)

SidecarFlip said:


> In Georgia if it's more than a decoration it's time to move further south...lol


That's what I thought when I moved down here to be a Damn Yankee!  It was 18 degrees last night!  I sure don't want to move down any further south because I can't speak Spanish!  It's hard enough to know how to speak Southern!


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## BrotherBart (Nov 20, 2014)

Shucks, ya just get used to "fixin" to do stuff.


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## Wilbur Feral (Nov 21, 2014)

tjnamtiw said:


> This calculator is even better since you can enter in information about your hot air ductwork, if you have it.
> http://www.buildinggreen.com/calc/fuel_cost.cfm


Much has been missed and overlooked in this discussion, from many people simply overlooking this very useful post and link from tjnamtiw (thank you for sharing it, btw, and Brother Bart, I propose that link as a sticky for the forum).

I always end up somewhere between amused and disgusted when people argue over what fuel is cheaper.  These are ALWAYS simply math equations. If you know just a small amount of rudimentary info about your home such as the very appproximate way it was built, you can get a good idea about what fuel works best for you.  That calculator is the best I've seen for a normal homeowner.  The thing that this link takes into account, which so many calculators overlook, is SYSTEM  (not just heater) EFFICIENCY.  This is especially important for forced air systems because many homes have such poorly constructed air distribution systems (ductwork). If you lose a large % of your heated air through your ductwork, your actual cost skyrockets.  And many systems are built so that the returns actually suck unconditioned air into the ducts.  It's the reason simply turning on the furnace blower doesn't work for many pellet / wood stove owners: You lose much of the heat to leaks in the ducts, and pull unconditioned air in.  BTW, returns are very often more of a problem than supply ducts, and both must be taken into consideration because these systems are loops that cycle air through a home.  Returns - particularly in pre 1990s / 2000s homes - often used joist bays as the return. These are nightmares of efficiency, and very expensive (practically impossible) to fix.


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## Husky (Nov 21, 2014)

Ranger72 said:


> Based on one of those calculators:  my house:   natural gas= 50.59 per mill BTU
> pellets: 18.94 per mill BTU.   Add NYS sales tax on the gas of 2.5% and supply fee of about 11 bucks for every 30 therms. The natural gas bill for just using my hot water heater and oven is roughly 60 bucks a month before touching the NG burner thermostat.   Loooong story short, pellets are much cheaper for me.


You did something wrong. Look at your bill and see how many therms you used last month. Divide that by the total cost of your NG, suppy/delivery and taxes. Don't forget to subtract out your electric portion if you get it from same company. That will give you the cost of a therm. Put that number in the calculator. NG can't be costing you $50.59 per mill BTU unless your furnace is very low on efficiency. Most older furnaces are at least 70% efficient.


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## bogieb (Nov 21, 2014)

UpStateNY said:


> My son lives in Brentwood, NH and his neighborhood just negotiated a 12 month lock in rate of $2.19 a gallon for propane.
> 
> $2.50 a gallon propane locked in rate. They will buy your tank.
> Townsend Energy delivers Propane to Brentwood, NH.
> ...



Don't live anywhere close to Brentwood. And if you don't use much propane, they don't negotiate. Already have 3 tons of pellets so will burn those. Thank you for trying to help though.


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## lagger (Nov 21, 2014)

Oil delivery scheduled for today at 3.00 a gallon.  Using oil never run the heat higher than 66 at the current oil price, I'm still ahead running a bag of pellets a day at 70 degrees.  Paid 535 Inc. Delivery for two tons in August


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## Harman Lover 007 (Nov 21, 2014)

Husky said:


> You did something wrong. Look at your bill and see how many therms you used last month. Divide that by the total cost of your NG, suppy/delivery and taxes. Don't forget to subtract out your electric portion if you get it from same company. That will give you the cost of a therm. Put that number in the calculator. NG can't be costing you $50.59 per mill BTU unless your furnace is very low on efficiency. Most older furnaces are at least 70% efficient.


I agree. That $50+ per million btus is WAY off. My cost here in new England is $16.25. I have used this calculator in the past. http://pelletheat.org/pellets/compare-fuel-costs/


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## RKS130 (Nov 21, 2014)

I find these calculators interesting but of limited use.  After all I have no real idea of the efficiency of my oil burner, nor of my pellet stove for that matter.  Neither do I buy my heat by the BTU or Therm.  

What I am certain of is that, not counting sales tax, at the current 2.799/gallon for No.2 oil, I would spend about $2700 on heating oil, and more if the winter is severe.  By contrast I have my 4+ tons in house at a total cost (again without the sales tax) of $1185. 

I'll take the real number over a calculator any day.


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## moey (Nov 21, 2014)

RKS130 said:


> I find these calculators interesting but of limited use.  After all I have no real idea of the efficiency of my oil burner, nor of my pellet stove for that matter.  Neither do I buy my heat by the BTU or Therm.
> 
> What I am certain of is that, not counting sales tax, at the current 2.799/gallon for No.2 oil, I would spend about $2700 on heating oil, and more if the winter is severe.  By contrast I have my 4+ tons in house at a total cost (again without the sales tax) of $1185.
> 
> I'll take the real number over a calculator any day.



Doesn't it always make you wonder where the other BTU's go? 

I had many interesting conversations with heating contractors on sizing a system. From a oil contractor wanting to put in 75k btu boiler to a geothermal contractor wanting to put in a 30k btu heating appliance. 

Pellet stoves are more closely matched to your load which makes a huge difference. I suspect if you had a oil stove in your living room rated at 30k btu you would see the same savings.


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## Ranger72 (Nov 21, 2014)

Husky said:


> You did something wrong. Look at your bill and see how many therms you used last month. Divide that by the total cost of your NG, suppy/delivery and taxes. Don't forget to subtract out your electric portion if you get it from same company. That will give you the cost of a therm. Put that number in the calculator. NG can't be costing you $50.59 per mill BTU unless your furnace is very low on efficiency. Most older furnaces are at least 70% efficient.


Plugged in the numbers, efficiency, etc. I'll try again, but I don't know. Haha


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## Ranger72 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have older uninsulated duct work, that seems to be the killer. My last month bill was 2.25 per therm. And no,my electric bill is separate.


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## lagger (Nov 21, 2014)

RKS130 said:


> I find these calculators interesting but of limited use.  After all I have no real idea of the efficiency of my oil burner, nor of my pellet stove for that matter.  Neither do I buy my heat by the BTU or Therm.
> 
> What I am certain of is that, not counting sales tax, at the current 2.799/gallon for No.2 oil, I would spend about $2700 on heating oil, and more if the winter is severe.  By contrast I have my 4+ tons in house at a total cost (again without the sales tax) of $1185.
> 
> I'll take the real number over a calculator any day.


 
there should not be tax on either home heating fuel, if there is it is only the County portion, none what so ever at the state level in NY


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## ZBrooks (Nov 21, 2014)

In my area, natural gas is the cheapest way to go.  The problem is, I live outside of the service area.  If it were available, I wouldn't have a pellet stove.  My other option is electric, but pellets are cheaper than my electric furnace.  In January, I'll be installing solar hot water tubes to cut down on the electric bill.


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## RKS130 (Nov 21, 2014)

lagger said:


> there should not be tax on either home heating fuel, if there is it is only the County portion, none what so ever at the state level in NY




Agreed.  The thieves in our county (Westchester) legislature decided that 3% was about as much as they could get away with, and so it is!


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## Ranger72 (Nov 21, 2014)

RKS130 said:


> Agreed.  The thieves in our county (Westchester) legislature decided that 3% was about as much as they could get away with, and so it is!


Come to Suffolk or Nassau. I pay 10k a year in property tax. My property is 75' X 136'. I'm sure there is a hefty county tax on fuel oil as well, but I have NG.


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 21, 2014)

Ranger72 said:


> I have older uninsulated duct work, that seems to be the killer. My last month bill was 2.25 per therm. And no,my electric bill is separate.


Unless you have a secret pipeline connected to CT or NYC, you get your NG from the same company I get mine: National Greed (aka National Grid, formerly KeySpan, formerly MarketSpan, formerly LILCO).
Our NG prices are surprisingly comparable to the rest of the country, unlike our electric rates (which contain the interest payments on a Nuke plant left stranded long ago).

Your calculation of $2.25 per therm is probably during your Summer use period when the $22/mo basic connection charge is skewing your minimal usage charge.

I have the same situation when I use 10-15 therms per month in the summer,
and use more like 150-200 therms in the winter per month.

If you look at your "year end" billing summary (balanced billing), or just add your full years Therm usage and compare to annual bills, you'll find a better $/therm number.

My calander 2012 costs were 1.46 $/Therm (used   937 therms).
My calander 2013 costs were 1.38 $/Therm (used 1028 therms).

The actual NG (fuel only) cost last winter were about 0.55 $/Therm, and dropped to about 0.35 $/Therm this past summer. Our major costs are in the Basic & the Delivery. The Taxes are remarkably reasonable.

For me the cost of pellet heat would be more expensive and more work, but I like to be diversified and I love the look & smell of a wood fire. Stuffing something in my "heat robbing" empty fireplace is also be a benefit.


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## lagger (Nov 21, 2014)

Ranger72 said:


> Come to Suffolk or Nassau. I pay 10k a year in property tax. My property is 75' X 136'. I'm sure there is a hefty county tax on fuel oil as well, but I have NG.


 
ouch .. can't imagine what property taxes in my old town are now, Stonybrook, as it is I am in upstate NY now in an expensive school district, 2000 sq ft house built in '03 (larger assesment than older homes) 3 acres of land  total tax bill last year was just short of 8 k .. will be less in 2015 as I will be 65 in May and qualify for enhanced star that will take 40k off of my 133 k assesment (on true mkt value of 270k)


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## Deromax (Nov 21, 2014)

About the oversized oil/gas systems the contractors prefers to install...  I think there must be a thinking, mostly with the older people, that a smaller, rightly sized system heating nearly all the time, will cost a lot in oil/gas cost, because "it never stops".  They would prefere the furnace going on for an intense blast of 5 minutes, then shut off for some time.  Obviously, the later will produce large temperature variations and ultimately cost more.

It's also clear that the installer prefere to sell you a bigger, more expensive appliance...

About 20 years ago, my parents had a 50k btu oil furnace installed in a small 25 X 25, 1.5 story house.  Obviously, the thing is loud, displace a lot of air and is constantly going on-off, with 5 degrees of temperature variation.  Not my definition of comfort.  YMMV.


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## Ranger72 (Nov 21, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> Unless you have a secret pipeline connected to CT or NYC, you get your NG from the same company I get mine: National Greed (aka National Grid, formerly KeySpan, formerly MarketSpan, formerly LILCO).
> Our NG prices are surprisingly comparable to the rest of the country, unlike our electric rates (which contain the interest payments on a Nuke plant left stranded long ago).
> 
> Your calculation of $2.25 per therm is probably during your Summer use period when the $22/mo basic connection charge is skewing your minimal usage charge.
> ...


The therm usage number was from my October bill. I don't do balanced billing. If I were to use my furnace to heat the house to the comfort level my wife likes, I would be paying 200 a month easily. (been there dive that) my pellet stove is more cost effective. I've done the math on my house.


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## CaptSpiff (Nov 21, 2014)

Deromax said:


> ...It's also clear that the installer prefere to sell you a bigger, more expensive appliance...



I changed from oil to NG in 2000. Had an old 140K btu input oil boiler and had significant pushback when I asked for the smaller 105K btu gas boiler. Guy actually made me sign a paper stating I would not complain in the future about too little heat. He didn't care that I was running a 0.7 gal/hr nozzle in the oil gun for years.

First winter I found the Gas Boiler cycling more than I liked, so I got smaller nozzels from Burnham that got me down to 90K btu input. I should have gotten their 90K unit to begin with.


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## jfunk138 (Nov 21, 2014)

Wilbur Feral said:


> I always end up somewhere between amused and disgusted when people argue over what fuel is cheaper.  These are ALWAYS simply math equations. If you know just a small amount of rudimentary info about your home such as the very appproximate way it was built, you can get a good idea about what fuel works best for you.



If folks spent half as much time cleaning and tuning their Dinosaur burning system as they did cleaning and tuning their pellet system, there is a good chance they'd find burning the Dinosaurs (particularly the kind that comes as a gas) is cheaper this winter.


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## Ranger72 (Nov 21, 2014)

jfunk138 said:


> If folks spent half as much time cleaning and tuning their Dinosaur burning system as they did cleaning and tuning their pellet system, there is a good chance they'd find burning the Dinosaurs (particularly the kind that comes as a gas) is cheaper this winter.


Even better, spend some money on rolls of unfaced R30 or rent the blow-in machine and spend some time in the attic.  True savings


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## Wilbur Feral (Nov 22, 2014)

Ranger72 said:


> Even better, spend some money on rolls of unfaced R30 or rent the blow-in machine and spend some time in the attic.  True savings


Agree.  But air seal it first. Batt and blown in insulation do little to stop all the many air leaks caused by wires, pipes, etc., which collectively equal a big leak. Air seal, then insulate, then redo your heat source if needed or desired.


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## RKS130 (Nov 22, 2014)

Ranger72 said:


> Come to Suffolk or Nassau. I pay 10k a year in property tax. My property is 75' X 136'. I'm sure there is a hefty county tax on fuel oil as well, but I have NG.




When we moved here, to our roughly 1700 sq. ft. stone/brick home 21 years ago, property taxes ran about $6700/year and oil was (if I remember correctly) about .99/gallon.  Unlike my income, they have both tripled since then with some significantly higher spikes in oil along the way (as I am sure everyone remembers).

I keep my house warmer with pellets than I did with oil once the price shot up, so BTUs and Therms are not the sole measure of value.  Right now it's about 28° outside and 72° inside - higher closer to the stove.  That is all.


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## twodogs02 (Nov 22, 2014)

Yup, ran my numbers last week with a propane delivery at $1.68/gallon and $269 that I paid in September for barefoot

$3.30 more for pellets right now. Would have never expected that. 4 tons in the basement, it's a sunk cost for this year (unless I choose to store them) until gas moves up but I would never get the house as warm as I do for the wife using gas. I also factor the level of comfort she needs relative to the cost per ass chewing I would otherwise receive. For me I don't blink when another bag goes in the hopper.


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## Chitownhillbilly (Nov 22, 2014)

twodogs02 said:


> but I would never get the house as warm as I do for the wife using gas.



I keep seeing comments like this and I'm not sure I understand. It takes BTU's to make heat, and if it cost more per BTU for one fuel than another, why does the temperature you want to heat at matter? Are Gas furnaces less efficient above certain temps? Or is it just a mindset that you have to save gas and therefore are unwilling to turn up the temp on the Gas furnace?


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## Husky (Nov 22, 2014)

Chitownhillbilly said:


> I keep seeing comments like this and I'm not sure I understand. It takes BTU's to make heat, and if it cost more per BTU for one fuel than another, why does the temperature you want to heat at matter? Are Gas furnaces less efficient above certain temps? Or is it just a mindset that you have to save gas and therefore are unwilling to turn up the temp on the Gas furnace?


I think what people are saying is that in order to have the room their stove is in at 75 than their  whole house would have to be 75. Most people can't zone off their rooms in their house to run the furnace just in the living space they want that warm heat. I know if I set my thermostat to 75 my whole house would be 75. Running my pellet stove, my upstairs is 67, the front of my house is 70 and my family room/Kitchen is 75. I think that is what they are saying.


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## twodogs02 (Nov 22, 2014)

Yes, exactly. Stoves are considered space heaters. I heat the south end of the house to 76 where the stove is, me and the kids stay on the north end where it's 68-70


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## SidecarFlip (Nov 22, 2014)

RKS130 said:


> When we moved here, to our roughly 1700 sq. ft. stone/brick home 21 years ago, property taxes ran about $6700/year and oil was (if I remember correctly) about .99/gallon.  Unlike my income, they have both tripled since then with some significantly higher spikes in oil along the way (as I am sure everyone remembers).
> 
> I keep my house warmer with pellets than I did with oil once the price shot up, so BTUs and Therms are not the sole measure of value.  Right now it's about 28° outside and 72° inside - higher closer to the stove.  That is all.


 
Wowzer...  I pay less for my entire farm (65 acres) and the house next to me that I own as well in property taxes.

I heard it was expensive to live out east.  Now I know for sure.  I'll stay right here in Michigan, thank you.


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