# Creosote check this weekend.



## CHeath (Mar 17, 2013)

I ran the ol go pro camera down the chimney yesterday to do a 30 day check because a lot of guys here said that I was building a lot of creo because I was burning wet wood at low flue temps. As most of you know the chimney is 30 years old, clay, square 7x7. No actual buildup was found as far as creo closing up the flow so to speak. However, the Interior lining was black and NOT chalky like some I've seen. Instead, it was shiny, dark black and did not live a residue on your hands when touched. Honestly, it looked like a new paint job on a car. Will a chimney brush clean this?


----------



## Waulie (Mar 17, 2013)

What you have is the worst kind of creosote.  It's glazed creosote, which also has a fancy stage number that I don't remember.  I don't think you're going to have much luck just brushing it.  You may be able to clean your pipe real well if you take it apart and you absolutely should.  You have a dangerous situation there.  If you get enough of that crap and it ignites, your going to have one heck of a chimney fire.

Try getting those "creosote removal" logs or the powder.  They don't really remove the creosote, but they help prevent the glazed creosote so your chimney is easier to clean.  Now that it's almost spring and you know you're gunking up your chimney, you may want to just hold off burning until next year when you'll have better wood.  Be safe!


----------



## BobUrban (Mar 17, 2013)

Get some of the powder from HD or Lowes or where ever that Rutland makes and burn a hot fire with a couple scoops in the coals.  Then do another check of the flu - this will be a great experiment for, "does the stuff work" question??  I throw a scoop in every few weeks or so when I think about it as a bit of insurance but have no clue if it helps or not.  The goal with it is not to stop cleaning - just makes cleaning easier, allegedly.


----------



## Gark (Mar 17, 2013)

Ditto what Waulie said. Back when we got that glazed "stage 3" build-up, nothing I did mechanically could remove the stuff. A friend suggested ACS (anti-creo-soot) a manganese based spray from a company in Vermont, I think. That was the only thing which had any effect- but you have to use ALOT of it..  like three times as much as the directions said. I would not even consider it in a cat stove, for fear of poisoning the cat. Rutland makes a version of the same stuff, but I don't think theirs is as strong as the ACS.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 17, 2013)

Well I just fired it up and have a nice fire. I'm not shutting it down but ill keep and eye out. I was afraid of this.


----------



## rideau (Mar 17, 2013)

Keeping an eye out isn't going to help too much if you get a real chimney fire going.  I'd try to clean that clay. 
You really do have a potentially dangerous situation on your hands, and should seriously and aggressively try to resolve it.  Have you searched for ways to get glazed creosote off clay tiles?


----------



## CHeath (Mar 17, 2013)

It's just a thin layer and yes it looks as the chemical such as sprays and one powder that had some good results but no have had a chance to try any. Ill try to post the video later.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 17, 2013)

VIDEO


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Mar 17, 2013)

Looks typical of the old clay chimneys. Bad.....  Time to think about installing a liner in that thing.


----------



## pen (Mar 17, 2013)

Oh yea, that's a whole lot of not good at all.

First, take your brush and scrub the poo out of it. Might not be able to remove all of it, but it won't hurt. Then start using some creosote remover as others referenced you to above, but above all, you need to change your burning habits.

Don't be mislead by that being a thin layer, that's dangerous stuff.

pen


----------



## pen (Mar 17, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Looks typical of the old clay chimneys. Bad..... Time to think about installing a liner in that thing.


 
Yep, and adjust the burning routine / fuel.

I hope that's at least an 8x8 in square chimney. 

pen


----------



## rideau (Mar 17, 2013)

pen said:


> Yep, and adjust the burning routine / fuel.
> 
> I hope that's at least an 8x8 in square chimney.
> 
> pen


Fiirst post he says 7 x 7.


----------



## pen (Mar 17, 2013)

rideau said:


> Fiirst post he says 7 x 7.


 
Yep, still trying to be optimistic 

I know the trouble I had with getting a 6 inch liner down my chimney that measured 7.25x7.25. If I had to line a similar chimney again, a 5.5 in liner would be going down it.

If it's a true 7x7, and assuming there are some misaligned tiles after looking at the video, I'd say a 5.5 is his only option AFTER that chimney is cleaned spotless.

Or, have a pro mechanically remove the clay flue tiles 

pen


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

pen said:


> Yep, and adjust the burning routine / fuel.
> 
> I hope that's at least an 8x8 in square chimney.
> 
> pen


Good advise no doubt.  But I wonder Pen, if you could possibly burn a wood stove hot and clean enough in a clay tile chimney to not get some glaze creosote?


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

pen said:


> AFTER that chimney is cleaned spotless.


Not arguing with that at all, but how could you possibly do that?


----------



## Waulie (Mar 17, 2013)

tfdchief said:


> Good advise no doubt. But I wonder Pen, if you could possibly burn a wood stove hot and clean enough in a clay tile chimney to not get some glaze creosote?


 
Why certainly you can!  I do it myself.  I also have a 7X7 clay flue.  This place had an old smoke dragon for the first 28 years and I used it myself for 5 miserable months.  I couldn't keep the chimney clean without having the stove and pipe so hot it was scary.  The good news is that the chimney has always been cleaned.  A new stove and dry wood and there's nothing in my flue at all!

Some of that creosote powder and a good chimney sweep should fix it right up.  The OP's chimney has never been used and I personally wouldn't abandon it just because he's having bad luck with wet wood.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 17, 2013)

I am totally bummed. In just one month, this has happened. I've killed myself gathering,splitting and stacking wood. I will stop burning before I install a liner in a chimney that's been used one month. That's defeating the entire purpose of me burning wood (to save $)


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

Waulie said:


> Why certainly you can! I do it myself. I also have a 7X7 clay flue. This place had an old smoke dragon for the first 28 years and I used it myself for 5 miserable months. I couldn't keep the chimney clean without having the stove and pipe so hot it was scary. The good news is that the chimney has always been cleaned. A new stove and dry wood and there's nothing in my flue at all!
> 
> Some of that creosote powder and a good chimney sweep should fix it right up. The OP's chimney has never been used and I personally wouldn't abandon it just because he's having bad luck with wet wood.


Good.  Glad you are able to do that.


----------



## pen (Mar 17, 2013)

tfdchief said:


> Not arguing with that at all, but how could you possibly do that?


 
Use the chemicals to help (while using dry wood) and scrub the crap out of it is the best you can do. 

Also, if he shuts things down and lets things wait until fall, it's amazing how much of that will clean out of the chimney after it's had summer's humidity (and some moisture down it if there's no cap).

pen


----------



## pen (Mar 17, 2013)

CHeath said:


> I am totally bummed. In just one month, this has happened. I've killed myself gathering,splitting and stacking wood. I will stop burning before I install a liner in a chimney that's been used one month. That's defeating the entire purpose of me burning wood (to save $)


 
Running wet wood is like trying to run gas through a car with water added to it.

Once your fuel source is up to par, you might find that chimney doesn't give you this much of a problem.

In the meantime, you need to really considering whether it is your fuel, burning habits, or both that's causing the mess. With what looks like an interior chimney, if those habits / fuel are up to par, there is no reason that chimney you have couldn't serve you well for decades with less concerning creosote build-up.

But, if you keep going the way you are operating that thing and don't want to improve the habits / fuel, then it needs to be lined.

pen


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 17, 2013)

What will it cost to run your other source of heat?
The first year is always tough, unless you've gotten your wood well in advance.
Keep your eye on the prize.....next year and subsequent years will be much better now that you've seen the result of burning less than ideal wood.


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

pen said:


> Use the chemicals to help (while using dry wood) and scrub the crap out of it is the best you can do.
> 
> Also, if he shuts things down and lets things wait until fall, it's amazing how much of that will clean out of the chimney after it's had summer's humidity (and some moisture down it if there's no cap).
> 
> pen


That sounds like a good plan to me.  I don't know much about the chemicals.  I have used them but didn't see much effect.   But I have certainly found that leaving it all summer loosens up a lot of the crud.  I never could keep my old Buck  from glazing up the chimney until I direct connected it to a SS liner.  Now I have no trouble at all.


----------



## Locust Post (Mar 17, 2013)

tfdchief said:


> That sounds like a good plan to me. I don't know much about the chemicals. I have used them but didn't see much effect. But I have certainly found that leaving it all summer loosens up a lot of the crud. I never could keep my old Buck from glazing up the chimney until I direct connected it to a SS liner. Now I have no trouble at all.


 
Same here Chief.......wanted a liner and then a small chimney fire was the final motivator. No harm done.


----------



## pen (Mar 17, 2013)

Locust Post said:


> Same here Chief.......wanted a liner and then a small chimney fire was the final motivator. No harm done.


 
Yep, that's one way to make sure the chimney is clean before putting a liner in!

I even know one fella (_may or may not_ be a member here, lives south of the Mason Dixon line yet East of West Virginia, might even burn an Englander 30 in a fireplace  ) crazy enough to self induce a chimney fire before installing his liner!

Takes a pretty high level of swagger to do that though.  Definitely not the recommended approach. 

pen


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 17, 2013)




----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

pen said:


> Yep, that's one way to make sure the chimney is clean before putting a liner in!
> 
> I even know one fella (_may or may not_ be a member here, lives south of the Mason Dixon line yet East of West Virginia, might even burn an Englander 30 in a fireplace  ) crazy enough to self induce a chimney fire before installing his liner!
> 
> ...


That'll do it  When I installed my liner, I thought about it.....but not enough "swagger"


----------



## red oak (Mar 17, 2013)

CHeath said:


> I am totally bummed. In just one month, this has happened. I've killed myself gathering,splitting and stacking wood. I will stop burning before I install a liner in a chimney that's been used one month. That's defeating the entire purpose of me burning wood (to save $)


 
That's the purpose of many of us burning wood (to save money)!  Although I love the work that goes into it of course!

Look, think of that work you've done gathering wood as an investment.  Once that stuff dries out you'll be loving it for sure!  It just takes time, and that is the frustrating part.

I certainly do NOT think you need a new liner - as you said, the chimney's only been used a few months.  Try some of the powder or other chimney cleaner you can get in a store, then give it another cleaning.  Even if you have to call a professional to check it out, that's not major money.  I bet you'll have much better results next fall with the drier wood.  Luckily in your climate, and mine too, the burning season should only go a couple of more weeks.


----------



## red oak (Mar 17, 2013)

Question for the experts here:  In the OP's situation, how would a SS liner help?  Is it just extra protection in case of a chimney fire?  Would it be easier to clean this type of creosote off a SS liner?  Just curious...


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

red oak said:


> Question for the experts here: In the OP's situation, how would a SS liner help? Is it just extra protection in case of a chimney fire? Would it be easier to clean this type of creosote off a SS liner? Just curious...


No expert but have experience with both.  With a slammer install, the flue gasses exit the stove into the fire place fire box and expand and cool quickly, then go up the flue.  Very difficult to keep the flue hot enough.  When direct connected to a SS liner, the expansion is eliminated and the SS liner heats up much quicker than the massive clay liner and masonry chimney.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 17, 2013)

But even though this is a slammer, it's just an inch larger then the 6 inch flue pipe (7x7) but I will admit. I am reluctant to burn at high temps. This has caused the glaze I am 100% certain. 250 to 450 max flue temps with damp and sometimes really wet wood was the culprit for sure. I asked a lot of peeps what temps I could run but never really got an answer but honestly I didn't feel comfortable at those high (over 500) temps.


----------



## red oak (Mar 17, 2013)

tfdchief said:


> No expert but have experience with both. With a slammer install, the flue gasses exit the stove into the fire place fire box and expand and cool quickly, then go up the flue. Very difficult to keep the flue hot enough. When direct connected to a SS liner, the expansion is eliminated and the SS liner heats up much quicker than the massive clay liner and masonry chimney.


 

So this kind of creosote would be less likely to form in the first place in a SS liner?  Makes sense.


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

CHeath said:


> But even though this is a slammer, it's just an inch larger then the 6 inch flue pipe (7x7) but I will admit. I am reluctant to burn at high temps. This has caused the glaze I am 100% certain. 250 to 450 max flue temps with damp and sometimes really wet wood was the culprit for sure. I asked a lot of peeps what temps I could run but never really got an answer but honestly I didn't feel comfortable at those high (over 500) temps.


You will have better results for sure when your wood is dry.  How big is the space above the stove, before it enters the 7X7 tile?  That is where I found the problem to be.  Too much expansion and cooling and there, before it even entered the chimney.


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 17, 2013)

CHeath said:


> But even though this is a slammer, it's just an inch larger then the 6 inch flue pipe (7x7) but I will admit. I am reluctant to burn at high temps. This has caused the glaze I am 100% certain. 250 to 450 max flue temps with damp and sometimes really wet wood was the culprit for sure. I asked a lot of peeps what temps I could run but never really got an answer but honestly I didn't feel comfortable at those high (over 500) temps.



Your 7x7 chimney has a MUCH larger cross sectional area. Your comparing it to a 6" round liner. Even a 6" round liner has a smaller criss sectional area than a 6x6 clay chimney. 

A liner will not only improve your draft, keep your gases hotter (450 flue is a good temp, but if the gases cool to quickly? Your left with creo that condenses out) , and a liner will be much easier to clean. 

Even if you just installed a 6" un-insulated liner, you would be much better off. 

I always tell my Wife. Sometimes you have to spend money to save money. That liner will pay for itself and pay dividends for years to come. Plus having 2-3 yr seasoned wood helps tremendously also. 

Many things factor in. But keeping the gases hot to the top of the chimney is key in any set up.


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 17, 2013)

red oak said:


> So this kind of creosote would be less likely to form in the first place in a SS liner? Makes sense.


Yes.  If you can keep the flue temp up, the condensation of flue gases on the inside of the chimney is much less.


----------



## Shane N (Mar 17, 2013)

CHeath said:


> But even though this is a slammer, it's just an inch larger then the 6 inch flue pipe (7x7) but I will admit. I am reluctant to burn at high temps. This has caused the glaze I am 100% certain. 250 to 450 max flue temps with damp and sometimes really wet wood was the culprit for sure. I asked a lot of peeps what temps I could run but never really got an answer but honestly I didn't feel comfortable at those high (over 500) temps.


 

Lower temps create more creosote. Burning at 250 is going to create a lot of creosote with damp wood. I'd suggest stop burning for the year. Buy the chimney cleaning bricks/powder/whatever and get it nice and ready for next season when you will have dry wood from your hard work. Burn that dry wood nice and hot (not 250) and you should have a LOT less creosote.


----------



## red oak (Mar 17, 2013)

CHeath said:


> But even though this is a slammer, it's just an inch larger then the 6 inch flue pipe (7x7) but I will admit. I am reluctant to burn at high temps. This has caused the glaze I am 100% certain. 250 to 450 max flue temps with damp and sometimes really wet wood was the culprit for sure. I asked a lot of peeps what temps I could run but never really got an answer but honestly I didn't feel comfortable at those high (over 500) temps.


 
Agree with the damp wood being the cause, and I can also see how the clay liner would be harder to keep warm and would cool much easier.  I'd like someone else to chime in on this, but I would (after my liner is clean) run that stove a bit hotter, in the 500-600 range.  This SHOULD cut down on the creosote produced.  With your damp wood, try splitting it smaller to get the fire hotter.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 17, 2013)

You guys rock. I am shutting it down this week. Was planning on it anyhow. Ill work up to those high temps but it seems I need to keep the stove full and the drafts all wide open to get them there. If you didn't see my other porn thread then below you will see how determined I am to get this off the ground. Thanks a lot!


----------



## pen (Mar 17, 2013)

Good advice given.

The cross sectional area of that 6 inch stove outlet is ~28 1/4 square inches. That 7x7 flue is 49 inches square.

If there isn't a good seal between how the smoke gets into that flue, then room air is leaking up as well cooling things in that chimney making the problem of wet wood and cooler temps even worse.

The temps you mention aren't terrible if you have dry wood (depending on how and where you measured those, I'm just guessing you are at least a foot up on that pipe) However, the temps your chimney are lower due to the increased area. Also, with less than ideal wood, and a slammer install giving less draft than is ideal, that stove isn't getting up to temps as quickly as it should which means you have a longer period of time after loading to deposit that crap.

Is this simply the stove and a piece of pipe up the flue of a fireplace? Is there a block off plate at all?

pen


----------



## rideau (Mar 17, 2013)

Good luck, and be safe.

Bummer for you that this has happened at the outset of your wood burning experience. Don't get discouraged. Things will get a lot better and easier.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

Pen I have no idea.  My earlier posts show my install pics.


----------



## pen (Mar 18, 2013)

CHeath said:


> Pen I have no idea. My earlier posts show my install pics.


 
Ah, I went back and found it. Looks like it's connected appropriately to me.

Is there a metal cleanout door on that chimney in the basement?  Are you sure it's closed and sealed well?  If it isn't sealed well, it can suck in room air and cool down the exhaust gasses exacerbating any creosote issues.

pen


----------



## oldspark (Mar 18, 2013)

With the right burning practices a clay liner will not get creosote in it, had one for 30 years, where do you guys get some of these ideas?


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

No clean out door. Heck, I guess I just remove the pipe and clean it out there? I want to burn for at least another week but you guys have got me a little reluctant to be honest. I've got dry wood now. I may just shut it on down for the year and hit the heat button just to be safe but I honestly do t think its a fire hazard at the moment but since I'm not "seasoned" ill take most everyone's word on it and get ready for next season. Thanks pen for taking the time to go back and look at my installation.


----------



## pen (Mar 18, 2013)

Yep, just pull the pipe for cleaning.

Have you run the brush down it yet? Scrub the heck out of it, and see how it looks. You've got the camera (wish it had a better light on it) scrub it up and send it down again.

Without a clean out door, I'm guessing there will be a void in the chimney below where your pipe enters, you can stick a shop vac (one with a bag in it) down there and suck out the goop, or reach the arm in there with a small junk margarine tub or similar to get the creosote out.

Also, when reinserting your stove pipe, there should be a lip there so that you cannot stick the stove pipe in too far. But, if your flue tiles / crock were built without a lip, make sure that you don't over insert the stove pipe as you don't want it sticking into the flue.

Here's a pic so you can see the lip that keeps your stove pipe form going in too far.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

Thanks alot, Yes, there is a lip on the pipe that wont let me go in to far. There is a void under the hole, no telling how large of a void but I know it is. Ill take pictures tonight of the flue opening now that I have decided to shut it down for the season. I am also going to raise the stove up approx 10 inches with cinderblocks so better viewing into the window and also, I will be doing a 45* pipe rather than the 90* to help draw. I got this from another member here. As well as installing a filter boc on the back to clean the air. Pics to come so stay tuned!


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

Ok people I just backed the stove away from the flue. I was surprised but at the bottom and as far as the camera will see, there is no glaze, it's just rather sooty. I'd guess from the hotter temps at the bottom of the chimney and the cooler ones at the top causing the glaze. See pix.


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 18, 2013)

Those real dark spots where the flue enters the chimney/thimble, looks like there are a bunch of air leaks? 

Did you try sealing that area where the pipe enters with Furnace Cement (2,000°)?


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

I used no sealant around entrance.


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 18, 2013)

CHeath said:


> I used no sealant around entrance.



See the dents on the end of the pipe? Those dents correspond with the dark spots. Those are all air leaks. 

That my friend, isn't helping any either.

A sealed system (whether its a liner or not), good fuel, and good burning habits (good flue temps, burning in full cycles when possible, getting up to temp quickly, etc) are all critical to keeping.your flue as clean and safe as possible. 

On the connection from my stove to the first section of pipe, I sealed there, with furnace cement, then also at the thimble with cement,  and I wrapped every joint with High temp foil tape (I have double wall. Wouldn't recommend that for your single wall, but cement wont hurt). It looks goofy, but I know I am doing everything I can to keep the gases as Hot as possible on there way up the flue

Click to enlarge


----------



## Shane N (Mar 18, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> See the dents on the end of the pipe? Those dents correspond with the dark spots. Those are all air leaks.
> 
> That my friend, isn't helping any either.
> 
> ...


 

How many thermometers do you need?!?


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 18, 2013)

Shane N said:


> How many thermometers do you need?!?



I have 5, but only trust one. The others are paid for, so i have to use them. Even if they don't work


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

Well, It was my first go around. Ive learned alot and thankfully didnt burn anything down. Ill be making some changes for next season for sure.


----------



## firefighterjake (Mar 18, 2013)

Hang in there CHeath . . . you're learning . . . and it is a process . . . a slow process sometimes, but steady . . . and safe.


----------



## ansehnlich1 (Mar 18, 2013)

I'd line that chimney with a 6 inch stainless liner, then pour insulation around it.

Another item not mentioned is the air flow in a round liner is completely different than a square or rectangular setup.

The idea is to get the chimney hot as fast as possible, create draft, get the particulates out of the system before they cool, condensate and cause creosote on the liner.

The combination of greater flue sq. in. size, square vs. round, wet wood, failure to burn hot enough, caused this condition.

I will tell you this, I insulated a 6 inch liner in an exterior brick chimney that is similar to yours heath, and I need to sweep every other year, no creosote, only some fly ash on the liner walls. I didn't want to line my chimney either, but safety trumped creosote.


----------



## red oak (Mar 18, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> Hang in there CHeath . . . you're learning . . . and it is a process . . . a slow process sometimes, but steady . . . and safe.


 
Yes hang in there!  Most of us have made our share of mistakes and (hopefully) have learned from them - I can tell you've learned a lot also.

Good idea on going to the 45 pipe.  Furnace cement is a cheap effective way of sealing up those cracks.  Wood will be drier next year and you'll know more about your stove.  I think all these things will make for a much better experience!

And yes you will see more creosote the further up you go in your chimney, due to the lower temperatures.  Usually it's worst above the roofline in my experience.  Keep us updated as to how you're doing!  Good luck!


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

Check it out guys, this will be easier on us all lol.


----------



## pen (Mar 18, 2013)

Good video!

You know the fuel is a problem, you know you've been running too cool, each of these could be the entirety of the issue.

However, I mentioned before a problem would be caused by an air leak from a cleanout door. I'm wondering if that hole is somehow letting air into that flue.

Does the stove pipe block that hole to the right? Even if it does, it's still of concern to me. Also, it looks as though there may be another hole down at the bottom where you'll have the clean the creosote you sweep up from. If that's the case, that's not great either.

I wonder if you could use a piece of brick to shove in that hole, then mortar around it to seal it? If there is in fact another hole in the bottom, that would be a SOB. However, if they are causing an air leak it needs to be sealed. Even if a hole (or holes) aren't causing an air leak, they provide a place for creosote to get trapped that cannot be cleaned out; which is not something I'm comfortable with.

I say clean that chimney the best you can, plug the hole, use the drier wood, and burn hotter, perhaps try some of the chemicals on the fire, and see where you are by the end of this season by comparison. 

Also, if you plan on raising the stove on cinderblocks, make sure you have the core holes in the blocks going up/down (like they would be in a wall), you wouldn't want the blocks on their side as they don't have as much strength there. Can't imagine much worse than a stove falling over when going at full tilt. Make sure that base is sound.



pen


----------



## BrotherBart (Mar 18, 2013)

pen said:


> Yep, that's one way to make sure the chimney is clean before putting a liner in!
> 
> I even know one fella (_may or may not_ be a member here, lives south of the Mason Dixon line yet East of West Virginia, might even burn an Englander 30 in a fireplace  ) crazy enough to self induce a chimney fire before installing his liner!
> 
> ...


 
If that fool is a member here he should be banned. Oh, wait...


----------



## ansehnlich1 (Mar 18, 2013)

....just watched your video of the base of the chimney. That hole you have is a problem. It's suckin' cold air right into the chimney, assisting in cooling your flue gas even faster/more.

I have a cleanout at the bottom of my chimney, a door I can open up. When I'm burning, I stuff insulation in there, up into the base of my liner, so NO excess air can enter through there. The key is to have all combustion air coming through the stove, NOT from any other outside source.

I know how much I fought lining my chimney. I did not know going into it that the chimney is THE most important part of the wood burning setup. If it ain't right, nothin' else will be right. From what I see your best bet would be to install a cleanout/access door at the base of that chimney/chase, patch that hole shut, run a stainless liner down that chimney, and use a poured insulation around that liner. That's the RIGHT way to do it.


----------



## pen (Mar 18, 2013)

Ya don't happen to have the phone number of the mason who put that chimney up do ya?

If so, it might be worth a call explaining what you found and how you think it relates to the problem you are having.

Guy might be willing to defend his reputation and come back to make his oversight correct.

pen


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

I think the builder died years ago.


----------



## pen (Mar 18, 2013)

CHeath said:


> I think the builder died years ago.


 
Doubt the call would do much good then 

Forgot the chimney was 30 years old. I was focused on the never used part.

pen


----------



## CHeath (Mar 18, 2013)

Man the wife is pissed! She got spoiled to the real heat in here! Now she's "freezing" lol. I swear, I think I may fire it back up being the pipe and lower chimney is ok. Order up some creo remover and roll it for another week or 2. We are almost to the warmup. Thoughts?


----------



## pen (Mar 19, 2013)

CHeath said:


> Man the wife is pissed! She got spoiled to the real heat in here! Now she's "freezing" lol. I swear, I think I may fire it back up being the pipe and lower chimney is ok. Order up some creo remover and roll it for another week or 2. We are almost to the warmup. Thoughts?


 
Did you run the brush down it?  What's the plan for the hole(s)?

pen


----------



## CHeath (Mar 19, 2013)

Neither yet I plan on covering the hole with mortor. I've got a 7x7 brush on my watch list on eBay but have not purchased it yet. Honestly I didn't expect to have to clean a month in, that's why I have no cleaning tools.


----------



## pen (Mar 19, 2013)

CHeath said:


> Neither yet I plan on covering the hole with mortor. I've got a 7x7 brush on my watch list on eBay but have not purchased it yet. Honestly I didn't expect to have to clean a month in, that's why I have no cleaning tools.


 
When running a masonry chimney, I liked to clean it monthly.  Now that I have a SS liner, I go every 2-3 months.


----------



## oldspark (Mar 19, 2013)

pen said:


> When running a masonry chimney, I liked to clean it monthly. Now that I have a SS liner, I go every 2-3 months.


 I cleaned my masonry chimney ever year and some times every 2 years, if you are burning correctly why would you have to do it every month?


----------



## pen (Mar 19, 2013)

oldspark said:


> I cleaned my masonry chimney ever year and some times every 2 years, if you are burning correctly why would you have to do it every month?


 
Nobody said I had to do it, I said I liked to do it on that schedule. A monthly inspection should take place.  If it's easy enough, why not run the brush through at the same time?

I've yet to hear of someone wearing out a perfectly good chimney with a brush, but seen plenty of perfectly good homes ruined by a chimney fire.



pen


----------



## ScotO (Mar 19, 2013)

I've been running the brush up the chimney on a bi-monthly basis ever since I started burning.  And although it doesn't need it, I like the piece of mind I get for 10 minutes of work.  Mine is really easy because I can do it from the ground.  And  the inside pipe comes off twice a season, again, for a cleaning and the piece of mind.....

Preventive maintenance goes hand in hand with safety......nothing wrong with a little 'overkill'.....


----------



## thewoodlands (Mar 19, 2013)

I clean the chimney at the beginning of January, April then at the beginning of the burning season, I'll also clean the inside pipe along with the wood stove.

Flame On


----------



## CHeath (Mar 20, 2013)

Ok so which steel sweep brush do I need? 7x7?


----------



## oldspark (Mar 20, 2013)

pen said:


> Nobody said I had to do it, I said I liked to do it on that schedule. A monthly inspection should take place. If it's easy enough, why not run the brush through at the same time?
> 
> I've yet to hear of someone wearing out a perfectly good chimney with a brush, but seen plenty of perfectly good homes ruined by a chimney fire.
> 
> ...


 Ok Pen the point of the post was why do it more often with a masonary chimney then a metal one, sure I could run a brush through mine every few weeks but what would be the point? Burning dry wood and safe flue temps is my piece of mind, then when I clean it once a year and there is hardly any thing in it I know I am doing it right.
 So please tell me why you cleaned your masonary chimney more then the steel one. I can roll my eyes too.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 20, 2013)

easy! lol. Do I need a 6x6 square or a 7x7 square?


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 20, 2013)

Uh, measure inside to inside.


----------



## pen (Mar 20, 2013)

CHeath said:


> easy! lol. Do I need a 6x6 square or a 7x7 square?


 
Looks like the inside is going to be 6x6 but tough to tell from the wash out in the pic.  If you were to get a 7x7, you'd probably have to do some trimming.

Being 6x6 is going to make lining darn hard to impossible if those tiles are not removed 

pen


----------



## pen (Mar 20, 2013)

oldspark said:


> So please tell me why you cleaned your masonary chimney more then the steel one.


 
Because I didn't install it and never knew for certain if it was entirely up to snuff and never wanted to test the limits. Fewer masonry chimneys from the 70's and 80's were properly built as folks would like to think, so erring on the side of extra caution with them is simply wise.

As it turned out, it's a good thing I kept up with / did more than necessary with the maintenance and never tested things out. A few years ago I found the thimble was incorrectly built and was way too close to combustibles. One chimney fire in that thing might have been one too many.

As it was I never got much out of the monthly cleanings but with an exterior masonry chimney it potentially could accumulate more creosote than a stove operated the same but connected to an interior chimney.

With a rebuilt thimble that meets clearances, and a liner that has insulation, I have a pretty high level of margin in the event the wife or I accidentally turn the stove into a light bulb and burn whatever little creosote there is in the chimney. Even going 2 or 3 months between cleanings now, I still don't get much more than peace of mind and hope it stays that way.

For what I do get, there's no reason I couldn't extend the cleanings out to once per season or once per year even. But, if it's easy, it just doesn't make sense to me to not go the extra mile.

Each and everyone is free to do what makes them sleep best at night.

I hope the original poster now has a plan that he's comfortable with.

pen


----------



## ansehnlich1 (Mar 20, 2013)

Hey Heath, that chimney you have there is smaller than most. It looks like a 6 inch brush might be too small, and a 7 too big. Measure the brush at the hardware store before buying.

In any case, to line that chimney would be tough. I am now not certain you need to do so. I think your setup should run like it is.

1. I think you were burning less than optimum wood, too wet, unseasoned, too much moisture content, etc.
2. I think on top of that you were burning WAY too cool.
3. I think the hole in the bottom of the chase was BAD, real BAD, sucking in all kinds of cool air and compounding the problem.

I'd get me some chemicals, try and get that shiny creosote to a crispy stage, and/or brush that chimney clean. Then get that chimney base all patched and tightened up, along with your piping, get that stove pipe installed properly, nice and tight.

Then get some dry/seasoned wood, and burn that puppy hot.


----------



## tfdchief (Mar 20, 2013)

CHeath said:


> Ok so which steel sweep brush do I need? 7x7?
> 
> View attachment 97285


As best as can be seen from the washed photo, the tape says the inside is 6 1/4 to 6 1/2 in inside.  I would get a 7 in square and trim it.  It takes a while but not that difficult.  A 6 in is going to be to small.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 20, 2013)

So I don't have a slammer  Lol


----------



## pen (Mar 20, 2013)

CHeath said:


> So I don't have a slammer  Lol


 
Naw, those are in fireplaces.

For what you have, you look to be connected appropriately.


----------



## oldspark (Mar 20, 2013)

Thats all I wanted to know pen, you can do what you want but I focus on not making any creosote, sure I check the chimney but dont run a brush through just for fun.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 20, 2013)

Ok pen and old spark. What's a good pipe temperature for YOUR pipe to keep creosote to a minimum?


----------



## oldspark (Mar 20, 2013)

I use the guide lines on my flue thermometer (it was made for a flue) and it is 250 to 450, on start up it will go higher than that but for running I keep it at 400 or below. I have used those guide lines for 30 years and never a problem.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 20, 2013)

Now we are getting somewhere. Ok sooooooo at 10 pm or so, I go down Stairs and fill my stove up. I have a nice 4 inch bed of hot coals and all is well at a cozy 380 pipe temp. I let it draft for a few minutes to get flames all around the box and the temp climbs to 450. I shut the door and "crack" my drafts because my stove will only last 6 or 7 hours with low or no draft settings. Well, when I do this, about 4 am the flue temps fall well below 250 because the drafts are closed mostly off. Now, does this happen to you guys? How do you guys keep your temps up through the nights? I have less than 20% moisture dry wood and it still drops below 250. Now, I can keep it on 300 but ill run out of wood and have no coals at 7 am. Thoughts?


----------



## ansehnlich1 (Mar 21, 2013)

If I read your manual correctly it states that you can expect a 6 to 8 hour burn. Well, what I think that means is when you load your stove it will be down to coals in 5 or 6 hours 

Your manual also clearly states that all connections should be sealed with stove cement. It says all air should enter the system through the air controls.

As to how hot to burn, you need to keep your chimney temps above  approx. 250 degrees, NOW that doesn't mean 250 coming off the stove, that means 250 all the way up and out the top, so just take a guess how hot that bad boy needs to be at the base, seeing how it's masonry, for it to remain 250 at the top?

I'm not sure but your unit doesn't appear to be a catalytic or otherwise. EPA rated stove. Correct me if I'm wrong. My Jotul, when operating, you cannot see smoke coming out the chimney, so there is no creosote to form.

My stove top temps, measured with an el cheapo stove thermometer, go up to 600 daily, some times I run it up to 700 degrees with that therm. on the top of the stove. Now just guess what the chimney temps are if the stove top reaches 700?

You can't compare your setup to guys running EPA stoves and/or Catalytic. Yours is a whole house furnace, it will operate differently.

When you line a chimney with an insulated stainless liner, that allows the chimney to reach operating temps much faster. That is why I have always suggested doing so. Your setup will work but you cannot shut the air down to the point where you want to lengthen your burn times, causing the flue temps to drop....will not work!

In the normal cycle of burning a load of wood, no creosote will be forming when you are on the natural downside of the load burning down, creosote will form when you shut off the air on a fresh/full load.

You gotta seal up that hole at the bottom of your chimney and any other air intake areas other than air controls on your stove.

I believe your stove will heat your home if you get your setup fine tuned, but you won't be able to load it and come back 5 hours later and see a pile of wood in there burning at a feverish pace, it'll likely be burned down....that's part of the cycle you need to learn.

If I'm wrong feel free to kick my butt 

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/creosote_from_wood_burning_causes_and_solutions


----------



## oldspark (Mar 21, 2013)

The flue temps I am talking about are single wall surface, the thermometer is about 18 inches above the stove so that is where you read the temp, if you have ever taken a IR temp gun you know how much the temp drops off just a few feet above that so no way are you going to get it to 250 at the top of your chimney with out glowing metal at the stove. I have mine about 3 feet above the stove and using those guide lines have never had a problem.
It will fall below that temp later in the burn and that is no problem, the creosote is formed in the early part of the burn so later on it makes no difference.
I ran a non EPA stove for 30 years and now run a EPA stove and they are more alike then not IMHO.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 21, 2013)

Not sure if my englander 28-3500 is EPA or not. Thanks guys for the great replies.


----------



## oldspark (Mar 21, 2013)

When I get a chance I will try and find some more information about flue temps but good info is hard to come by.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 21, 2013)

That's true, I've done the same. I don't have the mirror finished glaze like in that picture but there are places that are shiny and its all in the last 10 feet from the top of the chimney. The bottom is just sooty.


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 21, 2013)

CHeath said:


> Not sure if my englander 28-3500 is EPA or not. Thanks guys for the great replies.



Its not EPA Certified. Has no Cat or Secondary system. Just draft caps... 

Some models say EPA approved  But what that means is that its Exempt from the EPA regs. Like the dreaded Boxwood that US and Volgzang have sold so many of. 

That doesn't mean that you cant get that stove to burn clean. You can, your just gonna have to run it a lil hotter


----------



## CHeath (Mar 21, 2013)

yea, I understand now. Theres sometimes when Im outside and I look up there and there is nothing coming out but that molten lava hot air. No smoke at all. You know shes runnin clean then  Ive just got to get use to running it 450 or higher on the pipe.


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 21, 2013)

Just remember, there's a balancing act that you need to dance with.
Too hot and the pipe melts (well, don't think that would happen...I hope ), too cool and you get creosote and a possible flue fire.
Isn't this fun?


----------



## CHeath (Mar 21, 2013)

haha. yea its still pretty fun knowing Im sticking it to the power man. $100 power bill on a 2500 sf home with 4 females in it rules.


----------



## red oak (Mar 21, 2013)

ansehnlich1 said:


> Hey Heath, that chimney you have there is smaller than most. It looks like a 6 inch brush might be too small, and a 7 too big. Measure the brush at the hardware store before buying.
> 
> In any case, to line that chimney would be tough. I am now not certain you need to do so. I think your setup should run like it is.
> 
> ...


 
Great advice here.  I agree 100%.

I have a cheap stove pipe thermometer that's supposed to go 18 inches above the stove.  It gives me a rough guideline of what to shoot for.  I like for it to read around 400 - when it does, the house heats good and no smoke is to be seen.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 22, 2013)

VIDEO

Ok guys, I swept the Chimney today. Its 6.25 square and I only could find a 6 inch brush and I ordered a 7x7 off amazon as couldnt find one local. The good news is that the glaze was not as bad as I thought. I was expecting rock candy like supermans kneecaps but instead, it was removable with a fingernail scrub. The 6 inch brush was naturally not aggressive enough because it didnt cover the entire inside but it was pretty good. I am certain that the 7x7 will get the job done.

I had about 3 inches of a 5 gallon bucket of very find creosote crystals. No big chunks at all. There are still some glazed areas in the chimney (see video) but nothing like it was. Im happy that it something that can be resolved with good habits. I purchased creosote powder from Rutland as well as the spray as well as a log. Im not sold on these but for $20, ill try them per the directions.

I was able to patch the hole inside the flue with concrete. The smaller hole at the top was about an inch long and half inch wide and was uncoverable because it was almost upside down. I really dont think the super fast drying concrete would have worked. That will just have to be ok.

I think I may fire it back up this weekend. The new brush wont be here until later next week. Im going to seal the stove pipe outlet and then seal where the pipe goes into the flue. That should take care of any air leaks. Its the Rutland 2000 degree stuff.

Ok, check out these, let me know what you think. Thanks!

Post sweep Video..... 


Flue Video Post patch......


----------



## CHeath (Mar 23, 2013)

Ok it's buttoned up, chimney is clean and swept, hole patched in the chase, loose creo vacuumed out of the chase, high temp gasket sealer sealed around stovepipe outlet and also on the inlet into the thimble, creo powder, spray and fire log. Stovepipe is solid and tight, inserted all the way to the stop lip. I think it's ready.


----------



## oldspark (Mar 23, 2013)

Let us know how it works, sounds good.


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 23, 2013)

oldspark said:


> Let us know how it works, sounds good.



I agree.. Sounds like you have learned a lot about your system, made a few improvements, and also gonna burn much safer as a result


----------



## pen (Mar 23, 2013)

I look forward to hearing how you make out.  Sounds like a much improved system and plan of operation.

As a note, did you use high temp RTV on the pipe to seal it to the thimble?  If so, that stuff might start to stink on you as it's not meant for that much high heat.  Generally, furnace cement would be used to seal up any stove pipe joints. 

Good luck!


----------



## CHeath (Mar 23, 2013)

I actually used the wrong Rutland stove cement. But nevertheless I used the 2000 degree stuff. I didn't know the difference between stove cement and one you use to ahear the fiberglass gasket lining with. My tube has the red banner and the other has the black banner. I think I should have gotten the one with the black banner but hopefully it will be ok.


----------



## ansehnlich1 (Mar 23, 2013)

You're a good man CHeath, it takes a lot for a guy to come on here and go through everything you've gone through so far. In the long run, safety is paramount. We ARE talkin' fire here.

That chimney after sweeping looks ok, probably will be better when you get that bigger brush. You're lucky to have a relatively easy access to the top.

You got some open ground there around the house too, that's a no-no, it should be all covered with woodpiles


----------



## CHeath (Mar 23, 2013)

Ha! I have a stack you can see it in the video with maybe a cord and the my big long stack is in front of my truck. I need to get to work!!


----------



## red oak (Mar 24, 2013)

ansehnlich1 said:


> You're a good man CHeath, it takes a lot for a guy to come on here and go through everything you've gone through so far. In the long run, safety is paramount. We ARE talkin' fire here.
> 
> That chimney after sweeping looks ok, probably will be better when you get that bigger brush. You're lucky to have a relatively easy access to the top.
> 
> You got some open ground there around the house too, that's a no-no, it should be all covered with woodpiles


 
+1 on everything!  Good work with the chimney - hopefully that works much better now!


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)

Up and running. The Rutland cement is bubbling and making noises. This ok?


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)

Drawing WAY better. Sounds like a tornado. Lol


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)




----------



## DexterDay (Mar 24, 2013)

CHeath said:


> View attachment 97669



341° wall temp means your flue gas temp is likely around 600°-700° (surface temp x 2 = Internal gas temp) 

So your in the "Good/Safe" zone there. But the Clay Liner is what matters the most. 

Hopefully it sealed up pretty good and the Sote aint condensing out. 

As for the Rutland Cement?  When was it applied? It takes a little time to set up when applied pretty thick. It should be fine. I would smooth it out as it bubbles.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)

I put it on yesterday. It's had 12 hours. It's hard now and has stopped making noises tho. I was on edge a little after startup because the popping and cracking inside the chase bit it has stopped. I vacuumed it out really good so I know that there wasn't any sote in there at all. So far so good. Temps came up quick , draw is a lot better. Still don't have the good seasoned wood but its not wet. Most is all under 25% on the meter.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)

Video


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 24, 2013)

Chris, great that it's drafting better, but you are actually supposed to have a 1/4" rise per foot of run on the pipe.
What the heck happened to the rest of the video? I was getting nicely settled in and it went blank seemingly right in the middle.


----------



## jdp1152 (Mar 24, 2013)

Good read here. Thought you might end up having to chain whip the glaze out.  Previous owner of my house ran a stove in the basement that dumped into the same main floor open fireplace flue.  Pre sale inspector was amazed at the level of glaze he saw. Seller agreed to have it swept and ended up costing him a few hundred bucks more for the chain.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)

PapaDave said:


> Chris, great that it's drafting better, but you are actually supposed to have a 1/4" rise per foot of run on the pipe.
> What the heck happened to the rest of the video? I was getting nicely settled in and it went blank seemingly right in the middle.




I clicked on the link and it was all there. Like 5:02


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 24, 2013)

As PapaDave said, it should have 1/4" rise per foot of Horizontal. So it would behoove you to remove the metal you propped the stove up with. That small incline helps the draft. Do you have 3 screws at each joint? Holding it all together? 

As far as being afraid of burning hot. As long as you keep the flue clean and burn good fuel, getting temps to 1,000 (internal gas) isnt even an issue (dont make it common practice, but it can and will be done). 

Burn some more Creo destroyer, keeps the temps Hot and when you get the 7x7 brush, hopefully whats in there will just flake off.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)

Sounds good. Yep I've got all the joints multi screwed together.


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 24, 2013)

CHeath said:


> I clicked on the link and it was all there. Like 5:02


Yep, worked. I probably did somethin' goofy.
The black pipe should be male end toward the stove.
I think that's mainly to keep any creosote going back down into the stove rather than leaking out down the outside of the pipe.
Should be ok until you need to do something with the pipe.
Ok, you can hate me now.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 24, 2013)

Lol. Naw. I'm putting a 45 on it for next year. This one is out of here after this season. If it will just be safe till then.


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 24, 2013)

Cool beans. 45's should help draft too.
I feel so much better now.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 25, 2013)

When I raise the stove, its going to be on something steel its sitting on. I know cinder blocks will work fine but my luck, id get the one that had a weak spot in it and it would crumble while my stove was pumping the BTU's at 3 am lol. FIRE


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 25, 2013)

How'd the burn go last night?


----------



## CHeath (Mar 25, 2013)

It was quite nice. Really draws hard bunk have dry wood this time also. Was 80 just before bed upstairs. House is 2200 sf also. I hate to shut it back down but I was directed to an oversight on one of the pipes. I didn't have it hooked up correctly and someone mentioned that I needed to get that fixed. The 2 foot section out of the wall should have went inside the elbow and I put it on the outside What a Dumass. Lol. Ill Ask you guys.


----------



## CHeath (Mar 25, 2013)

Those freakin pictures! Why do they turn!


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 25, 2013)

CHeath said:


> Those freakin pictures! Why do they turn!



iPhone? 

What way are you taking them? Turn.phone sideways when you take it. Your YouTube vids come out "Narrow" also. An indicator that your holding the phone vertical. Turn it horizontal (botton to the right). And they "should" post straight? 

My iPad photos all come out straight and I turn it on it's side (horizontal w/ button on right).


----------



## CHeath (Mar 25, 2013)

Yea iPhone. Lets try it!!


----------



## CHeath (Mar 25, 2013)

Wooooooooooooooooo! Thanks!


----------



## PapaDave (Mar 25, 2013)

Oh man Chris, she's beautiful. How old?
I have a soft spot for the girls (3 of my own and 3 grandgirls).
You're a quick study....


----------



## CHeath (Mar 25, 2013)

Ha! I have 3 girls twins 13 and 8. This youngun is my brother in laws. It was the closest thing worth taking a pic of to try my camera! Ha!


----------



## DexterDay (Mar 25, 2013)

Glad I can help..


----------



## CHeath (Mar 25, 2013)

But that male female stove fitting thing IS on my mind sitting up here! My butthole is drawn up lol. Almost warm tho! Just a few more days!


----------



## CHeath (Mar 27, 2013)

New video MY DADS RIG 

I wanted to compare his pipe temps to mine. His was just idling it seemed and his temps were high 4's (pipe) but his stove was super hot as well as his vents to the ducts. It's 25 years older than mine. Note the metal pole in the door. He said the drafts stopped workin years ago and be has to crack the door to get any air in. The fans sound like they are on theirs at legs too lol.


----------

