# Energy Eff. Washers



## StackedLumber (Mar 6, 2010)

Since the government is now trying to get us to get rid of our old machines and get into new ones, we are seriously considering "upgrading" ours.  With us, the wife does laundry almost every day and our current machine is one of those "top loaders".  I really don't know much about the front loaders except for their claim to be super efficient.  

I'm sure someone out there has changed recently from a top loader to a front loader.  Are they really all that efficient, to where you noticed a smaller hot water, water, electricity bill?  What makes them more "efficient" or is it a marketing ploy?  I noticed you have to have a special detergent . . .is the detergent more efficient (need less)or eco friendly?

Just looking for some answers before I sink some money into one-b/c they ain't cheap!


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## vvvv (Mar 6, 2010)

Worth getting 1 just to watch it go forward & backward [computerized] & spin like a jet turbine which results in big savings when the clothes go into the dryer. A front loader is gentler on clothes , especially quilts & delicate items.


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## DBoon (Mar 6, 2010)

Yes, they save a lot of money, and they are worth the price due to that, and other reasons also. 

Here is where the money is saved:

1. They use about 1/3 of the water that a normal top loader would use.  If you are married to a normal woman who believes that clothes must be washed in warm or hot water, this will add up to a lot of hot water that costs you a lot of money to heat.  If you have somehow convinced your wife to wash with only cold water, the savings will be minimal. 

2. They spin water out of the clothes super-efficiently.  This means that your dryer works less, using less energy.  It will only take about half the time to dry your clothes as before.  If you hang your laundry to dry, then there is no savings here except for a lighter load to carry to the line. 

For one load of laundry done a day, that would mean a savings of roughly 10 gallons of hot water if you washed all your loads in warm.  That is 8000 BTUs of energy/day to heat the water.  If you heat water with electricity at $0.12/kWh, then you'll save roughly $10/month in hot water heating costs.  You might save even more depending on how you heat water (e.g. if your hot water is via an inefficient old oil boiler, you might save 2-3x that).  That's not counting the drying time.   A typical dryer uses about 5 kWh/hour.  One load dried a day for a month is 150 kWh.  If you can cut that in half, you just saved 75 kWh, at ~$0.12/kWh, or about $8.50/month. 

So you'll pay about $400 to $600 more, but you will probably save $100-200/year in energy costs (hot water, drier).  After 3-4 years, all the savings go directly to your pocket.  

I don't use the special detergents.  I just use about 1/3 of the normal amount of regular detergent.  By doing this, I just have to clean the door/gasket seal every few months - no big deal. 

These front loaders are more gentle on your clothes and clean the clothes better in my opinion. 

Your wife will really like it if you treat her to one of these.


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## btuser (Mar 6, 2010)

That's about right.  40 gallons vs 5 gallons.  Cothes last longer.   A lot less electricity to dry clothes, maybe 1/3.  My normal washing cycle is about 50 minutes and the typical drying cycle is about 15 minutes FOR TOWELS  If you've got a well you have to pump that water out of the ground, then pray it doesn't foul your leach field.  If you have public water + sewer, you will save money there as well.  Where we are sewer is now 2x the cost of water!  The soap isn't anymore expensive, because you use a lot less of it.  I've got a Samsung with the VRT thingy and its much quieter than our old top loader (Maytag neptune).  I got a deal for a washer/dryer combo at about $1000 w/3 yr warranty.  After rebates, tax credits, ect.  I figure payback is about 4 years for me if I count the TVM.  A bigger deal for me was putting about 12,000 gallons/yr back in our well and out of our septic.  Just the electricity for the pump is about $20/yr.  I can't think of a good thing about top loaders, other than your kid being able to stick his/her arm into one and have it ripped off.

A little tidbit no one seems to think about is the fact you can SELL a working washer, but have to PAY to get rid of a broken one.  I sold my old washer for $200 bones towards the new one!


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## woodsmaster (Mar 7, 2010)

We switched last november. Seemed to knock about $20.00/month off the electric bill (family of five). We use half as much soap (tide works great). Clothes get cleaner! Definitly worth it to me.


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## PAJerry (Mar 7, 2010)

For just me and my wife, we didn't feel like spending the outrageous price of a front loader.  My brother has one and the cycle is much longer and we don't think it does as good a job.  We went with an Ecosmart model by Fisher and Paykel, a top loading energy star rated washer. It lets you set the water level, which front loaders do not. My work clothes get pretty filthy and it does a great job. It also cost about half of any front loader. Just an option to look at if money is tight.


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## btuser (Mar 7, 2010)

I have to agree the front loaders do get expensive in a hurry.  I'm also curious why they stopped making front loaders in America and went to top loaders.  Probably cheaper but there seems to be a consumer preference towards them as well.  Maybe less stooping.

Front loaders don't need to set the water load, because they have a sensor that tells them when the clothes are saturated.  It can tell automatically how much water is needed.  My parents are stuck on using an extra rinse, which I guess is fine.  However, I found out the reason they use it is because for 2 years they were using a front loader with regular soap, and the suds were not coming out!  

The key for me and these kind of purchases is to be proactive.  Buy before there's desparaiton, and the old equipment may be worth $omething.  My front loader was a package deal.  Washer for $649 and dryer for $351.

-$50 energy eff rebate
-$50 tax rebate
-$200 for sale of old washer/dryer. 

In the end the combo ended up costing me about $700 after rebates, ext. warranties, upgraded hoses, some new shelving  and a bucket of soap.  My wife and I are not the dry-cleaning type so I didn't opt for Steamy or silvercare or a matching set of $400 pedistals.   My friend saves about $10/week drycleaning  so I'm sure it's worth it to some.


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## semipro (Mar 8, 2010)

Consider a Bosch.  It was one of the few we found made in the USA.  We like ours a lot.


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## StackedLumber (Mar 8, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> Consider a Bosch.  It was one of the few we found made in the USA.  We like ours a lot.



Semi, your the second person this week that has recommended a bosch to me.  What is it about it that you like-besides the USA part.  (which is huge in my opinion, if true)


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## Deere10 (Mar 8, 2010)

Just my 2 cents. We got Samsungs last Oct.  n love them. The only thing I found is if you let the washer set for over a day or so it gets a litlle musty smell in it,possibly some water left in the tub somewhere. We just leave the door open a crack to solve the problem. Another thing to consider is a top loader w front load technology<(i know it sounds funny). I know Sears carries them and I am sure others do too. But it is your basic top load style but uses same amount of water as front loaders,and there is no adjatator in the middle of tub. Friends of mine have them and love them,you can really load them up with clothes.  Personal preference I guess.Just another tidbit,you wont need the pedestals for top loaders,unlike front loaders that you may want on pedestal mounts to get them up off floor,not having to bend over to load and unload....I will get off my Soapbox now(anyone get the punn in there?)


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## pdboilermaker (Mar 9, 2010)

There has been much talk about using the HE detergent, we do not use it we use Arm and Hammer like always and it works fine.  However, if you use a cheap, cheap brand they often make more suds and then you get an error code on the washer.


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## Bobbin (Mar 9, 2010)

Our top loader is pushing 20 yrs. old and I've been hungering for a front loader for years now.  How many of you who have them have set them up in pan with an overflow to protect against inadvertant leaks?  We live primarily on the second floor ("the apartment") to capitalize on gravity to drain waste water to the raised septic system.  The husband thinks I'm nuts to insist on that addition ("we've never had a problem before...").  

I've worked in two laundromats where a sock caught in the door resulted in a breached seal and the mess and inconvenience was considerable.  I agree that front loaders use a lot less water, less detergent, and generally are more efficient to operate... that's why I want one.


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## btuser (Mar 10, 2010)

I like the Samsung we bought.  It was the 3rd front loader we've owned (we kept moving and just buying new) and by far the quietest, but that may just be the setup/flooring ect.  It has ball bearings that counter-balance the load so even heavy towels don't make a ton of noise.  I don't sweat the leaks.  Most leaks in a house happen from burst hoses or backed - up drains.


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## DBoon (Mar 10, 2010)

If you are worried about water leaks, just buy the reinforced hoses for the water supply lines - a burst hose is where your leak will come from.


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## kartracer (Mar 10, 2010)

We bought the samsungs when we built our house last year.Knock on wood,they have been great.Kust be sure and leave the door and the soap drawer open when you finish-we have never had trouble with the sour smelling clothes some talk about.If you're on a well or even if you're not,they use a lot less water.The prices have come down a fair amount from a year or two ago.Also,as others have stated your clothes last longer before the edges tear,etc..Bosch is a German company,but may have a manufacturing facility in the US,I really don't know.


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## charly (Mar 10, 2010)

Check out "Staber" washing machines. Top load, but works like a front loader. No transmission, variable speed motor, goes back and forth, high speed spin, belt drive, 15 gallons of water, no more than 1 ounce of soap. Works great!  Great customer support. Low power consumption. They are also used on the Subs in the Navy, from what their web site states. Greaseable tubb bearings. Plain and simple built. Easy to service parts, if ever needed. Ours is 7 years old, and still runs fine. Even the drive belt is still fine.


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## begreen (Mar 10, 2010)

We've had a front loader for the past 12 years. Frigidaire brand. Quiet and efficient, it has worked out well for us. We're now on our second generation. Watch the sale and shop hard. We paid about half of retail and got a rebate too.


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## pdboilermaker (Mar 10, 2010)

I put the $12.00 plastic pan under mine


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## ChillyGator (Mar 10, 2010)

Another Samsung user.....4.0 capacity.  Washes bigger loads cleaner than my old one.


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## semipro (Mar 10, 2010)

StackedLumber said:
			
		

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Its efficient with power and water, quiet, and so far, troublefree.  It cleans well too even with cold water. My only gripe is that it beeps when done and doesn't seem to give you the option of turning it off, a minor complaint.  Its Energy Star certified so we should get a rebate.  

I spent quite a while shopping washers at Lowes and Sears and this was the only one I found made in USA.  Maytag, Samsung, and other mentioned here were made in Korea, Germany, Mexico, or elsewhere.  Interesting that a German brand would be made in USA while the American Maytag brand washers I saw were made in Germany.  

Also worth a look if you really want a top loader is the Fisher and Paykel brand made in New Zealand.  Their design is quite cool and very simple.  What amounts to basically a stepper motor direct-drives a top loading tub.  There is no transmission.


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## PJF1313 (Mar 10, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

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I, also have a Bosch, a Nexxt 500.  To turn off the beep/signal :

1) Select a program (wash cycle)

2) Press and hold 2 Option buttons until a short beep is heard. (Option buttons = Bleach; Rinse Plus; Heavy Duty)

Don't do this during a running cycle - don't know why, that's what the manual says ;-)


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## vvvv (Mar 10, 2010)

I have heard & read where a front loader will develop moldy smell if not used frequently.


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## charly (Mar 10, 2010)

Blimp,
Think there's a small amount of water that ends up sitting in the hose going to the pump.  Usually it's not a problem.


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## ewdudley (Mar 10, 2010)

Check out Fisher Paykel top loader ECM drive machines, available through Loews and Sears last I knew.

These are bona fide high efficiency units.

No transmission, low water consumption, 1000 rpm high-speed spin, auto out of balance correction.

No gasket stank, because no gasket and no door seal.

No cantilevered drum.

And proves that sometimes a substantially less expensive option can sometimes be a substantially better machine.


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## ChillyGator (Mar 10, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> I have heard & read where a front loader will develop moldy smell if not used frequently.



Tide makes a product that you run through the washer to remove any smells.  My washer had that smell early on, I used one tablet of the Tide product and the smell went away and has not returned.  I try to remember to 'dry' the inside of the door and the seal after each use, I actually accomplish this about 20% of the time.


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## begreen (Mar 10, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> I have heard & read where a front loader will develop moldy smell if not used frequently.



We've had this issue with front and top loaders. Now we always leave the door slightly open and that helps a lot. Also, running an occasional load of whites with bleach keeps it fresh.

FWIW we also get this in our Bosch dishwasher from the water remaining in the sump. A spot of bleach keeps it away.


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## pinewoodburner (Mar 11, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> We've had a front loader for the past 12 years. Frigidaire brand. Quiet and efficient, it has worked out well for us. We're now on our second generation. Watch the sale and shop hard. We paid about half of retail and got a rebate too.



I had one that lasted 6 years, had to replace the pump then the computer went.  Had enough.  The front loads do save money but every store I went to said they where not seeing much more than 6 years life on them.  Maybe they will get better but the same stores said they where getting like 12 years on the top loads for the life expecency.  The extra cost was to much for me so I wen t back to a top load with the front load technology.  We will see how long it last.


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## Fsappo (Mar 11, 2010)

StackedLumber said:
			
		

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We upgraded our dishwasher last year.  I told my wife we were buying a Bosch because it was made in the USA.  Spent about $1K.  I hate the thing and will probably end up buying a non US made one when the Bosch craps out.

I always try to buy American, but I'm not rich enough to throw good money after bad


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## semipro (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks PJ!



			
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## semipro (Mar 11, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

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We like our Bosch dishwasher.  It was the only one I could find that didn't pull air from under the dishwasher for drying the dishes.  All others seem to.  After pulling our dishwasher once to put in tile and finding the mummified hairy remains of a mouse near the inlet of the drying fan we decided that was a bad design.  No doubt mouse parts had been distributed across our clean dishes for some time.  

And, like you said, it was Made in USA.


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2010)

pinewoodburner said:
			
		

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I replaced our older frontload Frigidaire (actually made by Electrolux of Sweden) when it was 10 years old. Never did anything to it and it was working great. The newer unit is of similar design, larger capacity, but less water. I wasn't going to get it, we just needed a dryer, but we ended up with a heckuva good deal by buying last year's model from the dealer. So far we're really pleased with it. 

I didn't like our first Bosch dishwasher either. They have an absolutely silly and bewildering model lineup. We often run half loads and air dry. The first model wouldn't let us do that. But our current unit does and so far it's doing a good job. It is very quiet and I like that. My concern is that they are making them so light duty compared to the older units that I wonder how it will stand up over time.


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## StackedLumber (Mar 13, 2010)

Well, after reading this I did bite the bullet and bought a Bosch 500 front loader.  Sears is running a 25% off discount and I had another discount on top of that.  In the end, I got it for $779 out the door.  Add to that we have the $50 Michigan rebate and someone bought my old Whirlpool for $150, I've come out pretty good in the end on this one.    Now to see if it will hold up to the rigors of washing clothes for my three boys that seem to always find dirt and mud and anything else that can end up on their clothes!


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## btuser (Mar 16, 2010)

I figure with the amount of money I save using a front loader,  I could get a free washer every 5 years anyway.   I can see how there'd be more things to go wrong (motors, belts ect) but the #1 thing I guess is the timers/circuit boards.  I'm trying to find a surge protector for the house, last year I lost about $2000 worth of stuff during a vicious lightning storm.


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## StackedLumber (Mar 16, 2010)

pdboilermaker said:
			
		

> I put the $12.00 plastic pan under mine



Where did you get your plastic pan for it?  Would like to get one too!

Thanks


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## peakbagger (Mar 16, 2010)

I am late to this thread but did want to mention Staber Washing machines as an option. The are a US built top load horizontal axis washer, no transmission, as they use a variable speed drive motor coupled via a fan belt. They have a mechanical timer and the controls are simple. The units spin up to very high speed and get the majority of the water out. With a plastic top and SS drum they tend to last a long time. They are usually bought direct from the factory.  Usully more expensive than a residential brand but they tend to run for a long time.


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## StackedLumber (Mar 18, 2010)

well, now that I've got the Bosch up and running, I'm impressed.  There's nothing about it that I don't like. . . .save one thing.  I notice that some socks on occasion get stuck in the door area and not in the washer tumbler.  

Someone mentioned about how long these take . . . boy were they right, but wow, they use so much less water, it's impressive.  And the quietness level compared to our old whirlpool is great too!

AND on top of that, not only do I get the $50 State of Michigan rebate, but also our electric co-op is giving an additional $50 rebate on top of that!  Add to that, I was able to sell the old one.  In the end, it's totally worth it!  And my electric bill will show it!


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## semipro (Mar 18, 2010)

StackedLumber said:
			
		

> well, now that I've got the Bosch up and running, I'm impressed.  There's nothing about it that I don't like. . . .save one thing.  I notice that some socks on occasion get stuck in the door area and not in the washer tumbler.
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> Someone mentioned about how long these take . . . boy were they right, but wow, they use so much less water, it's impressive.  And the quietness level compared to our old whirlpool is great too!
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> AND on top of that, not only do I get the $50 State of Michigan rebate, but also our electric co-op is giving an additional $50 rebate on top of that!  Add to that, I was able to sell the old one.  In the end, it's totally worth it!  And my electric bill will show it!



The two front loaders we had previous to our Bosch both had the same problem with small articles like socks.  I think its a front loader thing.  I hope it does you well!


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## Bill (Mar 18, 2010)

We just bought two new Samsung's and the first thing my wife thought is if the cycle time is so long, isn't it using more electricity? Didn't know what to tell her, except the washer is Energy Star. Yes you do have to keep the door open when not in use. 

My daughter has the Bosch dw and it just broke. My wife said the silver ware holder was in the wrong place and said she would never buy one because of that. But it also was extremely quiet while running.


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 18, 2010)

StackedLumber said:
			
		

> well, now that I've got the Bosch up and running, I'm impressed.  There's nothing about it that I don't like. . . .save one thing.  I notice that some socks on occasion get stuck in the door area and not in the washer tumbler.
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> Someone mentioned about how long these take . . . boy were they right, but wow, they use so much less water, it's impressive.  And the quietness level compared to our old whirlpool is great too!
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> AND on top of that, not only do I get the $50 State of Michigan rebate, but also our electric co-op is giving an additional $50 rebate on top of that!  Add to that, I was able to sell the old one.  In the end, it's totally worth it!  And my electric bill will show it!



Let us know/keep us posted on if you see an electricity drop? and let us know appx how much shorter your dryer times are? (I hear the clothes come out almost dry)


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## StackedLumber (Mar 18, 2010)

ilikewood said:
			
		

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I'll keep you posted on the electricity.  The dryer definitely runs less.  We've run 6 full loads in it and none the loads have dried for longer than 25 minutes.  Whereas, with the old washing machine we were drying for 40-60 minutes and towels were well over an hour!


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 18, 2010)

Wow, thats some serious savings.....we run our dryer for appx 55-60 minutes....pretty big loads....I'd love to get it down to 35 minutes or so.
Probably going to wait for the fall, as the clothes will be on the closthesline soon.
Thanks for the info


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## StackedLumber (Mar 18, 2010)

ilikewood said:
			
		

> Wow, thats some serious savings.....we run our dryer for appx 55-60 minutes....pretty big loads....I'd love to get it down to 35 minutes or so.
> Probably going to wait for the fall, as the clothes will be on the closthesline soon.
> Thanks for the info



For full disclosure . . . . my dryer is a gas dryer, but the fan and tumbler runs less . . . my real savings that I'm excited about is on the hot water side of things.  Between my electric hot water heater and my well pump, I"m using nearly 1/4 of the water I had been using.  (from 55 gallons to 13 gallons on a full load)  Estimators that I have seen, say for our size family and laundry activity to expect to see an electric savings of  $10-$20/month. I'll take it!


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 18, 2010)

Very good savings indeed.
How old are your boys (stackers)...mine are 7, 5 and 2 1/2...not real productive yet :


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## StackedLumber (Mar 19, 2010)

oh my boys aren't that old yet, I just call them my wood haulers.  My oldest is 4, and he actually does really good when it comes to the wood.  When I'm making a box of kindling for the winter with the hatchet he picks it all off the ground and puts it all in a box.  Then when I'm cutting slabs he can handle the pieces and he does really good putting them on the pallets.  He also does ash duty out to the garden w/ the ashes.  My 2 yr old likes to rake, so he gets bark duty with his little rake.  My youngest just started crawling tonight so he'll get introduced sooner than later.


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## semipro (Mar 19, 2010)

Davesbehemothwoodcart said:
			
		

> Very good savings indeed.
> How old are your boys (stackers)...mine are 7, 5 and 2 1/2...not real productive yet :



Mine are 18 and 19 and still not real productive...


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## StackedLumber (Apr 15, 2010)

Thought I would follow up here on our purchase.  After a month, we found on our electric bill that we did save a little over $16 in electricity for the first month.  Overall, we really really like it, but it def. has some pros and cons.  

*Pros:  *

It definitely is more energy efficient, everything from less water, less soap, less electricity, and dryer clothes coming out
I'd say it cleans equally well, if not slightly better than our older (11 yr old) Whirlpool, which is remarkable for it using 1/4 of the water
It is super super quiet-period
The capacity thing is huge, we've gone from doing nearly 2 loads a day-for 5 days to now getting all the laundry for the week done in 2 days.  Frees my wife up big time
The timer that tells you exactly how much longer allow us to time our day out to keep it moving, really like that feature.  Add to that the timer to start it, we can fill the washer sunday night and then the laundry starts at 6 on monday am, and by 7:30 we are putting the next load in.  

*Cons:*

Wife doesn't like the side load design, she says she fights keeping clothes off the floor when she takes them out, she would go w/ an energy efficient top loader if she had the choice again.
Ours has a rubber gasket that has a groove in it that socks tend to fall into while it is cycling and then they have to be rewashed
It has lots of cycles to choose from (pro) but they take so dog gone long-up to 4 hours-that it makes it completely impractical to use them.  For instance, the baby clothes cycle takes 3 hrs 48 minutes-ridiculous to hold up the laundry train for that long.

The only other thing I would say is to watch stores.  We've found the Meijer will put the He laundry detergent on sale and we buy up in bulk big time.  When we bought it, the Sears guy told us of a Sale at Meijer on the detergent and we paid $3.50/bottle compared to $7.90/bottle, so we picked up 8 bottles to last us a while.  This last week, Meijer had Tide on sale for $4 off per bottle too.  

Just my thoughts after a month and a week of using it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 15, 2010)

I have mine for about 10 YEars probably saved twice its purchase price in water and heated water. 
Water saving alone will pay for these washers over time My water bill was cut in half.  I figure im saving $240 a year right there. THat does not include the cost of heating all that water that your no longer using. Definitely get the clothes cleaner and does not tear up delicates like the agitator does.

One side note ,i just cant get the wife to use a small amount of detergent. SHe has the mind set that more is better and the suds alarm comes on  all the time.even with the HE detergent.
ALso this washer saves water cuz it automatically adjusts for load size which is great for people (like my wife ) who wash very small loads


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