# Greenfire tear down and rebuild



## sparke (Jan 11, 2008)

So the fun begins.  I forgot to take pics of the unit before I broke it down.  Here are a few pics with it broke down.  Will post more as I progress...

IMG]http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p83/sparkie68/Greenfire006.jpg[/IMG]


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## rsnider (Jan 11, 2008)

good pics keepem coming.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 11, 2008)

Two really stupid questions . . .

1) Wouldn't taking a pic BEFORE you disassembled it been a good idea when the Green Lights start going down easy and you have a handful of 'spare parts' left over? and
2)What's the scoop on the Buderus? Their gas units are supposed to be top of the line . . .what happened to yours?


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## sparke (Jan 11, 2008)

1.  Not that many parts as to be concerned with reassembly.
2. Buderus is a great boiler for the era but I would say it is 15 - 20 years old.  Still heats great but I am guessing 60% efficiency tops = short burn times about 4 hours.  What pushed me over the edge is running outta dry wood while sitting on 16 cord of 6 month old Oak.   This boiler will burn it fairly efficiently.  Unlike most gasifiers this one isnt as fussy about dry wood.  Let's not even start the whole dry wood discussion


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## sparke (Jan 12, 2008)

Today I finish insulation and outter skin + plumbing.


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## machinistbcb (Jan 12, 2008)

Wow!! The pics are great.    Those boilers really are a simple design.  How thick is the steel paneling on the outside?  What type of insulation is that on the outside of the refratory ?  After seeing these pics I think I may try to build one of these.


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## sparke (Jan 12, 2008)

machinistbcb,  
A good welder could easily make one of these.  The only special tool you would need is a tubing bender.  Even that could be rented.  An electrical bender could be used if you could find a shoe with the proper I.D. to match pipe. (I am guesing electrical pipe o.d. and plumbing pipe o.d. are different)  An exhaust pipe bender is yet another I.D. all though I have used one to bend electrical conduit when in a pinch ;  I would suggest going to www.rohor.com and buying the plans if you want to build your own...

Oh ya,  I intentionaly left out the fire tube pics only for the fact I felt it is unethical to post the whole design for the whole world to see...  Greenfire sent this to me specifically so I could tear down and rebuild.  I don't think it would be fair to that company or Fred Seton to post "everything".  Call me old fashoned...


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## wsurfer49 (Jan 12, 2008)

That does not look too intricate of a design.  For a tubing bender look at Harbor Freight or Northern Hydraulics.  HF will be cheaper and all the stuff I got from them has worked quite well so far.  They have a 12 and a 20 ton bender, I have the 12 and it will bend up to 2" pipe, the 20 will bend 3".

I have given some thought to making my own boiler, I built a backhoe and a towable grader but I think my money and time would be better spent on a proven design and also having that certification might make a difference when it comes time to sell the house.  I have to put in some type of furnace for that reason as well as insurance since I just burn wood in an older stove now.  Insurance companies have become very particular about wood burning and they might also give some grief about a home built boiler.  Just a thought, but might want to check it out b4 buying a lot of steel.  Could always use the steel though.

Rob


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## machinistbcb (Jan 12, 2008)

I did notice that the fire tube seems to be  top secret.  It is not pitcured anywhere On Fred seton site or the green fire site ethier.  But one could use their imagination anf figure it out pretty easy.  My problem with buying the plans from Seton is the price   700.00 !!  I am a cheapo do it yourselfer Mainer and I just cant drop $700.00 for a set of paper prints.  I understand he has a lot of time and money invested in the design, but come on $700.00


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## rsnider (Jan 12, 2008)

questions:
1. does greenfire have ash pan on bottom?
2. does greenfire have steel reinforced refractory like seton?
3. did you pay less the way you did it not 100% completed?
4. did they give you the sealant for final build?
5. does the door have refractory on it?
6. how thick is the refractory pieces?
7 how thick is the other insulation?

just asking to see the diff. from the seton. thanks for all the good pics helps me allot to see how this design is put together. this boiler may be on my list looks pretty good and the price wow. thanks in advance ryan.


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## brad068 (Jan 12, 2008)

machinistbcb said:
			
		

> I did notice that the fire tube seems to be top secret. It is not pitcured anywhere On Fred seton site or the green fire site ethier. But one could use their imagination anf figure it out pretty easy. My problem with buying the plans from Seton is the price 700.00 !! I am a cheapo do it yourselfer Mainer and I just cant drop $700.00 for a set of paper prints. I understand he has a lot of time and money invested in the design, but come on $700.00



I looked at a Greenwood one time and seen the ASTM # of the steel for the water tubes. It SA 106 SCH 40 steel pipe I believe it was 1/2". This grade of pipe is for high temp service. It is dimensionally the same as SCH 40 black pipe only differences is that SA 106 is seamless and the grade of steel is better. I purchased some of this pipe through local heating/plumbing wholesaler.


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## sparke (Jan 13, 2008)

> questions:
> 1. does greenfire have ash pan on bottom?
> 2. does greenfire have steel reinforced refractory like seton?
> 3. did you pay less the way you did it not 100% completed?
> ...



1. Yes
2. Inside the refractory like re-bar?
3. No - all their units are built. Owner said they had to build this one. 
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. sides = 4" front and back may be thinner I didnt measure them.
7. Sides = 2" + 1" , 1" Ceramic insulation all around the top of firebox.
2" + 1" ceramic insulation on top.

A ssomeone else pointed out in the other thread- no nozzles just metal tubes from comb. air damper into bottom of refactory.

Still plumbing today. Will update later...


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## rsnider (Jan 14, 2008)

thanks for the info. yea does it have rebar in the refractory?


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## kuribo (Jan 14, 2008)

You can't put rebar in refractory because of the different thermal expansion rates. The rebar would expand at a greater rate and crack the refractory...


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## mikeyny (Jan 14, 2008)

Then I would suppose the same thing would happen if you used re-enforcing wire of some sort??


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## kuribo (Jan 14, 2008)

yes....cast refractory is not reinforced in the same manner as regular concrete...


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## rsnider (Jan 14, 2008)

no rebar does make sense


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## SciGuy (Jan 15, 2008)

I used stainless steel wires in the refractory mix that I cast for my Russian Stove some 25 years ago. It has nicely stood the test of time.

Hugh


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## sparke (Jan 16, 2008)

I have the ole girl up and running. First impressions: I am impressed. Last night I built a small fire. I had all I could do not to load her up but the company I bought it from(Valley Trailers) suggested a few small fires to help cure the refractory. Today I built a slow fire and with 3 pieces of kindling + 5 dry splits. I then threw 5 pieces of green oak approx. 6" diameter. The fire lasted from 9:30 - 2:30 (5 hours) heating down stairs. Approx. 1000 sq ft. I then reloaded with 1-12" piece of green oak and about 4 more pieces of 6" green oak. Here are a few pics of the fire + temps at at 7:00. Also no smoke coming out of chimney just white steam that dissipates about 10' after exiting the flue...


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## brad068 (Jan 16, 2008)

Sparke,

 Is that a piece of galvanized duct piping that your Condor temp sensor is on?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 16, 2008)

First let me say . . .Nice work putting that together and getting up and running. They are apparently smarter than GreenWood . . .they paint the front black so you won't notice the smoke build up on the face! Keep us posted. Can you buy parts for that? If they were interchangeable with my GW I'd consider buying replacements for my refractory.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 16, 2008)

Other than the lack of a drain pipe on the relief valve, it looks good to me.

I'm curious about the placement of that Ammark draft control. Usually they screw right into the boiler, but I guess if you don't have a pressure vessel, you can't do that. I'm thinking you need continuous circulation through that fitting for the draft control to work right. Is there flow through there at all times? I guess ditto for the aquastat.


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## sparke (Jan 16, 2008)

Garnification, yes it is all galv. except the one elbow at the top - all pieces are 24 gauge.  I am waiting for a SS liner.  Then I will replace all of it.  I am used to galv. burning off the chemicals quick but with the low stack temps it seems to linger...

Isee, Give GREENFIRE a call ask for Mark.  They are very helpful.  Customer Service is good and I have had all my questions answered promptly...


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## sparke (Jan 16, 2008)

Eric,  I knew you would catch that   I went to the plumbing shop and grabbed all the fittings before I started.  At the end I was short 1 male to female adapter.  I will do that in the a.m.  In the meantime if it pops it is in a safe place.  Also, you are correct,  the vessel comes with supply and return piping.  No place to screw in sensors or samson.  The manifold is my creation.  I put the aquastats very close to the supply outlet.  The way this vessle is made, heat transfers quite well that close to the outlet piping.  When the system is cold the aquastats lag by about 10*.  Once everything is warmed up all the temps seem to correspond across the system.  The samson may have a bit temp. difference but it is located in the supply stream so it is pretty close to accurate...  Eventhough you cant see it I have 2 aquastats. 1 for circ. between boilers and one for overheat control.  I also have a temp relief bypass for a dump zone if the temp goes over 210*


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## sparke (Jan 16, 2008)

First mornng I have ever woken up to a warm house.  17* outside - 72* inside!!  Temp on boiler @ 7:00 a.m.  190* nice bed of coals.  Filled boiler at 10:30 p.m. The oil gun just got turned off for the season!!


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 16, 2008)

I assume you meant the customer service at Green FIRE was good, not GreenWood . . . since their's sucks. Anyway . . . so yours is a closed system?? Now I am jealos, as the GW is an open system. Which was why I was looking at Tarm and a few others. I know the 20plate HX works, but I'd still rather heat my oil boiler directly.


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## sparke (Jan 16, 2008)

My bad - Greenfire!!  207-834-5582


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## sparke (Jan 16, 2008)

3 Hours into burn cycle.  Boiler full of 3 month old 12" diameter Red Oak.


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## rsnider (Jan 16, 2008)

wow looks good. I'm very impressed with this boiler the simplicity and how well it works. could you send some pics of the back of the boiler i would like to see how you plumb this type of boiler.
does it come with expansion tank and aqua-stats or did you have to buy all the parts to install? hope you continue posting about how it operates.


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## henfruit (Jan 16, 2008)

why you burning green wood?


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## sparke (Jan 17, 2008)

henfruit said:
			
		

> why you burning green wood?


 Because I can! Seriously, Greenfire company says it performs really well with 3-6 month old un-split hard wood. That is one reason I went with this boiler as opposed to other gasifiers that require dry wood. I just so happen to be sitting on 16 cord of 3 month old oak and I was running out of dry wood. This years cold snap really put a dent in the pile. As you can see from the pics of the firebox and chimney, the boiler is burning very clean.

Here ya go Rsnider: It came with Sealant, 30#pop off, 210* bypass valve, temp/pressure gauge, Samson draft controler ( I think it is different brand but same design).
The aquastats and other parts came off my old boiler or were purchased.









That picture does not do justice to the amount of heat in that firebox when you open the door!!


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## henfruit (Jan 17, 2008)

we need better pics. so if green wood works then my green wood should be able to burn like yours as they are simular design.


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## henfruit (Jan 17, 2008)

what is that little chain for on the back?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 17, 2008)

Pretty impressive looking clean burn, sparke. Henfruit--that chain opens and closes the natural draft door. It's activated by a bimetal draft control mechanism which you can see in one of the pics from the front. It's the silver thing with the black knob on the top. It gradually opens and closes the draft door (with no power) as the boiler heats and cools.


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## sparke (Jan 17, 2008)

Hen, Yes yours should be able to burn green wood efficiently also. Greenwood, Greenfire, Black Bear, Adobe are all based on the original Seton design. However, the Greenfire has some modifications that I believe help it burn better. Seton and most others have 2 draft positions. Open or shut. I like the Samson control. I suspect the idle time is lessened. The fire is allowed to burn - albeit at a much slower rate as opposed to choked off causing possible creosote(just my opinion). Fred Seton is opposed to Samson control or at least he was when I asked him about it... Also I think there is an extra draft tube that enters the fire box separate from the ones in the back. I suspects this helps achieve a higher combustion rate. With said differences I bet you can still burn fairly green wood.


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## wsurfer49 (Jan 17, 2008)

I am sold.  YOU have done a bang up job of selling me and 99 percent of that is being a satisfied customer.  Please keep me posted on any problems or concerns that you might have.  I am trying to educate myself and any input from an experienced installer will be helpful.  I like the looks of the unit and the price is incomparabel and it does not appear that there is much if any sacrifice in quality.  

Congratulaions on that warm house.  I can really relate to that, 50 degrees in the morning if I didn't load the stove at 10 or 11pm.  I have been gone now for 3 days and it will be around 40 tomorrow when I get home.  BRRRRR!

I can just imagine how nice it will be with a furnace and maybe 1000 or 15000 gallons of storage.  The house will be a very different animal then.

Rob


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## rsnider (Jan 17, 2008)

thanks for the pics. so the green fire has a separate air intake than just the ones on the back? does same damper control this air coming in? at what part of the fire box does it enter? it would be nice if it would enter a bit higher toward the top of fire box to burn off more gases. thanks again for your replies.sorry i like to ask allot of questions but i like to get all the real world answers i can from someone using a boiler. ryan


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## sparke (Jan 17, 2008)

No worries on the questions.  I learn alot from this forum. It is nice to give back.  Anyway, the extra tube feeds the fire from underneath.  It originates in the same draft chamber as the rest of the tubes.  I agree in theory that it would possibly burn more gases if located higher. But, I think there is PLENTY of heat in the box to burn everything just the way it is...


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## rsnider (Jan 17, 2008)

is this tube in the ash pan area coming up into the fire? you said earlier that it does have a ash pan how does the ash go into it, is there slots int he bottom of the refractory or is the opening for the ash removal level with the refractory just an opening into the chamber? ryan


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## sparke (Jan 17, 2008)

The tube starts in the same place as the other 4 draft tubes (in back under draft door).
It simply dumps into a bottom chamber at the back of the unit.  This is the same chamber the ashpan is in.    The air then follows the ash pan up into the grates at the bottom of the firebox.  I will tell Mark from Greenfire about this blog.  Maybe he will chime in...


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## magnumhntr (Jan 18, 2008)

Just curious as to the other important specifics..... like....

Warranty
Durability
What the company sized this unit to be able to heat

anything else we might be interested in.

Reason being I am seriously in the market for a wood boiler of some sorts. I was sold on Central Boiler OWB, but since finding this forum, and leaning more towards the gasifiers. Problem is, I want something that will keep up with my heat demands, yet not need to be tended more than once every 10 hours at least. I don't see the point in having one if it can't keep going while I'm at work. I see there are some OWB type gasifiers out there, and more coming. So that might be my answer. That being said I think if I had to choose right now, it'd be a Tarm or a EKO for nothing other than the fact everyone that I read about having one has nothing but praise for them. 

Chris


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## sparke (Jan 18, 2008)

magnumhntr said:
			
		

> Just curious as to the other important specifics..... like....
> 
> Warranty
> Durability
> ...



Warranty - 20 Years (pro rated)

Durability - Hard to say since I have only had a week.  However,  I have been rolling in 12" unsplit- green red oak with no problems.

Size - 90K  I thought about going bigger as I have a 2000-2400 sq'ft not well insulated house with 20 year old Anderson windows.  Greenfire advised againts it.  They were right.  I started off loading the boiler full (which lasted 10 hours w/coals on a 15-20* days with wind).  I have found half loads last almost as long.  I am still playing with draft control for optimum wood consumption - heat.


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## jebatty (Jan 18, 2008)

magnumhntr said:
			
		

> . . . not need to be tended more than once every 10 hours at least. I don’t see the point in having one if it can’t keep going while I’m at work. I see there are some OWB type gasifiers out there, and more coming. So that might be my answer. That being said I think if I had to choose right now, it’d be a Tarm or a EKO for nothing other than the fact everyone that I read about having one has nothing but praise for them.



Chris - we've exchanged some comments and you may have seen some other comments from me. Your knowledge has been very helpful. 

I have a Tarm Solo Plus 40 (140,000 btu) with 800 gallons storage, self-installed and put in operation in Sept 07. My satisfaction is well over 90% and still climbing as my experience teaches me the best way to operate the boiler in my circumstances. Have seen many other positive comments on the Eco, but no experience. Tarm in Lyme NH is very helpful, and my dealer was very helpful. Tarm makes larger and smaller units.

The only "negatives" I have, and these could also be positives, is the 20" firebox (19" actually is a better working length because my chainsaw cutting sometimes gets the pieces a little long) and single load burn time 3-5 hours on pine. The shorter length makes the splits very easy to handle and load. Good for the *AF if important. Steel firebox with refractory bottom, so need to be a little careful on first pieces in, but after that little danger of damaging refractory. I don't have oak and therefore have no experience with burn times for oak. It should be longer and therefore produce more heat.

With adequate storage your 10 hour time frame should be no issue. SW MI is more mild than N MN, where I live, so your heat requirement likely is less per sq ft. Say you fire in the morning before taking off for the day, takes about 5-10 minutes, and then fire in the evening when you return. Boiler will burn full bore dumping heat as needed for space heating or to storage. With N MN extreme temps, two firings of pine per day is maximum for me, and so far this heating season, one firing is far more common, and some days I can skip completely. 

My "ideal" is to move to 1200 gallons or more of storage, as the boiler clearly has capacity to heat more, and larger storage just provides more flexibility. Would not surprise me that if your bring storage up to 160 or more over the weekend, you may be able to go for several days with no firing at all, depending on weather and your heat requirements.

I would strongly suggest sizing the hx (maybe oversize some) and storage to take the full boiler output to get a continuous burn to the end. Idle time is wasteful. Except as my storage rises above about 130, my full boiler output goes to storage. As storage temp rises, amount of heat the hx can strip off the boiler output reduces, and I do get some idle time at the high end.

P.S. -- it's more than fun to see roaring yellow to blue flame out of the nozzle and then wonder, what happened to all that ash I used to get?


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## MikeF (Jan 18, 2008)

Hello everyone! I've been lurking here for awhile now, actually since my "homemade" OWB sprung another leak. It's sort of fixed now but I have vowed that it would be my last winter with it. (It's about "100" years old...time for all poorly made boilers to be put to rest.) In all fairness Bertha has been pretty good to me. She eats too much and smokes like a chimney but we've spent a lot of quality time together.

Anyway...for my first post I thought I'd let you all know that Greenfire's new website is now up. Greenfire 

I talked with Mark Babin today at Greenfire and he was very helpful and down to earth. I live in Western New Brunswick so I think I'll take a drive up there to look at one first hand. 

From what I've read here thus far and what I see on the website, I like their boiler. Right now I'm leaning that way. Mark says I shouldn't need storage but also says that I ought to have a heat dump of some sort. Wouldn't storage be the best of both worlds?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 19, 2008)

Hi Mike. Welcome to the Boiler Room.

Heat storage and a heat dump are not necessarily the same thing. If you need to dump heat and your storage tank is fully charged up, then you're not going to dump any heat into it. Better is a bypass arrangement that allows you to pump hot water from the boiler directly into your biggest heating zone in the event that the boiler gets too hot, say, over 200 degrees. That way you overheat your house to protect your boiler. The storage tank will do the same thing, but only it it's depleted. So it's not as reliable.

Another form of heat dump is a gravity heat dump that is designed to dissipate heat from your boiler in the event of a power outage. Or, you can use a generator or a battery backup of some sort. It's a good idea to be able to dump heat from your boiler if the power goes out when it's been firing hard. You should really have both, IMO.


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## henfruit (Jan 20, 2008)

sparke how has the smoke been when you are loading the greenfire?


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## sparke (Jan 20, 2008)

henfruit said:
			
		

> sparke how has the smoke been when you are loading the greenfire?



Smoke can be an issue if you open door at the beginning of burn cycle. After reading thru Greenwood Threads before I got his boiler I knew what to expect. I open the door up when temp goes below 160* (no smoke problems at this point). Reload, shut door and forget it until next reload. That being said, I also have a draft issue. The company suggests the boiler needs .06-.07 draft for proper efficiency. I have .03 to .04. I am still working on getting the proper draft. Its looking like I may need to buy a draft inducer... I am going out of town for a while. Will update later...


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## henfruit (Jan 20, 2008)

i put in draft inducer. i only use it when i load it. but istill get some smoke. i built a hood over the door area with a exhaust fan to help remove the smoke. it woks ok. i really think this boilers still need to be out side in seperate building?


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## rsnider (Jan 23, 2008)

Sparke could you post the plumbing diagram or instructions that greenfire sent with your boiler? i would like to see how they suggest to plumb up the system. thanks ryan


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## sparke (Jan 28, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> Sparke could you post the plumbing diagram or instructions that greenfire sent with your boiler? i would like to see how they suggest to plumb up the system. thanks ryan



There are about 20 different diagrams.  With Hx without Hx, with radiant w/out, etc...etc...

Tell me which scheme you are interested in and I will be happy to post it...


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## rsnider (Jan 28, 2008)

i was first thinking of a hx but if i don't need it would like to see that one. i do have radiant floor heat. greenfire just sent me 2 diff. ones very generic illustrations no specifics like hx or not and expansion tank things like that. does yours have heat exchangers or do you plumb right into the house from the boiler?thanks ryan


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## sparke (Jan 29, 2008)

Here is all of them Rsnider.  Do these links take up space on this board or just the photo site?  Mr. Moderator let me know if you want me to take them down...


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## rsnider (Jan 29, 2008)

wow thanks  ryan


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## SteveJ (Jan 30, 2008)

These diagrams are available online pages 24 through 35 starting at 

http://www.thermavolt.com/page24.html


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## rsnider (Jan 30, 2008)

greenfire must be using all of seton info along with the design. does greenfire have a deal with seton to use all the web stuff. they must have the rights or something from seton to use all the same stuff and build the boiler the same.


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## sparke (Jan 30, 2008)

I have no idea.  I am just passing along the info I have...


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## rsnider (Jan 30, 2008)

sparke thanks for all the info. i think I'm sold on this boiler. looks to be good build and the price i was quoted was very nice. 4400 for greenfire compared to the 9900 for the blue forge i was quoted is a big difference. the only other one even close to that price is the eco from cozy heat top banner. i will prob. get it soon as the weather breaks and can pour a concrete pad for my shed it will go in. keep the progress of the workings of this boiler coming.thanks ryan


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## woody&sons (Jan 30, 2008)

cast refractory can be reinforced with stainless steel needles or ceramic fibers.


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## Mainewood (Feb 1, 2008)

rsnider said:
			
		

> questions:
> 1. does greenfire have ash pan on bottom?
> 2. does greenfire have steel reinforced refractory like seton?
> 3. did you pay less the way you did it not 100% completed?
> ...




Does the Greenwood or the Seton have an ash pan on the bottom?  What is the life expectantcy of the refractory?

Thanks, Mainewood


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## rsnider (Feb 1, 2008)

greenwood does not have ash pan
seton i think does have ash pan but iv never seen a seton in person but the others can answer that for sure.


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## rsnider (Feb 2, 2008)

one more question how do you move a boiler like this? If its in the back of a truck or on a trailer how something this heavy be moved into its position. 2800lbs is allot to move. any suggestions. i assume fork lift from the supplier onto your truck or trailer. how do the suppliers expect you to ever move this thing. just sitting and thinking of how to move this boiler or any of this type of boiler seton, greenwood, greenfire or the bigger one like garn. i think the eko and econo burn are a little lighter at over 1000 or so.


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## Mainewood (Feb 2, 2008)

rsnider, I have moved this type of boiler/furnace with a skidsteer equipped with forks.  You can usually rent them for around $200/day.


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## henfruit (Feb 2, 2008)

mine came on a pallet. so we used a hand jack and a ramp to get it off the trailer. then rolled it on plywood to get it in the cellar.


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## Mainewood (Feb 2, 2008)

henfruit, I guess I'm just lazy...


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