# cost of solar panels



## FramerJ (Jun 4, 2022)

Following in Woodsplitters recent post about going solar, I recently met with an installer.  It would be a rooftop 6K system using 15 REC alpha series pure 400wp panels with enphase  IQ7+ inverters.   I was quoted $23000 ($17000 after tax credit). This seems a bit high based on everything I have read but I am ignorant of what it actually does cost to have panels installed.   Does anybody have a thought on this?  Thanks for your time.


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## begreen (Jun 4, 2022)

Did they break down the cost estimate? How much electrical infrastructure change will be needed at the house?


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## FramerJ (Jun 4, 2022)

begreen said:


> Did they break down the cost estimate? How much electrical infrastructure change will be needed at the house?


No.   Basically, the price covers everything--the equipment, labor, engineering, permits, inspections, etc.  All I have to do is give them a check and they do it all.  When I asked what all is involved electrical-wise, basically it will run from the panels into the attic then out a gable end down to the meter can.  The power company will then switch out the meter with a net-metering (bi-directional) meter.  Nothing was implied about any changes on the interior or with the breaker panel. They will however switch out my current programmable thermostat with an Ecobee.  I am not really sure why this is needed but supposedly it adds to the overall efficiency of the system.  Not yet convinced on that part.


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## peakbagger (Jun 4, 2022)

That sounds quite high. The rule of thumb for last several years is $3 per installed watt pre rebate with competitive markets getting down to $2.75. There currently is hiccup in the supply of solar panels so panel availability is difficult for small installers.  It they are running it down to the meter can, they are doing a line side tap which does a bit more materials than running to main panel.


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## Solarguy3500 (Jun 4, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> That sounds quite high. The rule of thumb for last several years is $3 per installed watt pre rebate with competitive markets getting down to $2.75. There currently is hiccup in the supply of solar panels so panel availability is difficult for small installers.  It they are running it down to the meter can, they are doing a line side tap which does a bit more materials than running to main panel.


While I agree that recent years have seen cost per watt in that range, that tends to be on larger systems 10 - 15 kW or so. OP is talking about a small 6 kW system, so I'd expect the CPW to be higher than that, especially with a premium panel like the REC Alpha.

Also, you mentioned the recent disruption in panel availability, and the other impact of that is that panel prices have gone up recently.

Just for giggles, I tried running this system through my pricer with 15 of the REC Alpha panels and IQ8+ micro inverters and I got a price around $25,000 so that $23,000 price might not be too bad. I don't know the market in OP's area, though.


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## Rockstar1346 (Jun 4, 2022)

You guys are lucky I got a quote up here in northern Canada and it was 45000$ after rebates. And that was 9-10k system. I know a few neighbours have done it and even with the price point a bit higher say it pays off in a few years


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## peakbagger (Jun 5, 2022)

I was looking at the OPs location and was speculating that the labor cost might be lower in Missouri than in area with higher labor costs (like Massachusetts).  We also do not know how long the cable runs are and I had to guess if its line side tap or a tie into a main panel with enough bus bar rating capacity (200 Amp). Some contractors were getting away in my area with doing line side taps directly in the meter box without installing a separate box or a box with separate compartment. The local utility put a stop to that. 

All of my arrays except the first small one were installed by myself with panels from major firms that decided to get out of business or bankruptcies. I bought my first 4 Sharp panels at $6 bucks a watt 20 years ago. 

I guess I should have suggested that the OP wait, the panel shortage is potentially a short term thing, the panels are still being made its just a potential tariff that is being challenged. The bigger issue is that the Koch Brothers and some electric utilities are and have been fighting solar incentives state by state including pulling back incentives that were in place. They have been quite successful in some states (like the recent solar rules in Florida).  Thus a homeowner needs to take into account how solar friendly their state is currently and where it may be in the future.


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## FramerJ (Jun 5, 2022)

Thanks for all the feedback guys.  There are so many rabbit holes you can go down when it comes to solar installation. I was just trying to establish a base point on average cost.  I will be getting 2 more bids this week so I will see how it compares.   

Solarguy-thanks for doing a cost comparision.  That does help put things in perspective.

Im sure being in the middle of the country our costs cant really be compared to those on the coasts.  

Missouri did offer incentives but they have expired.  I believe the only "incentive" left is a law that you cant be assessed a higher value on your property if you have solar panels. 

Our energy provider, Evergy, doesnt exactly roll out the red carpet to go solar.  Why would they.  They limit the system size and offer a 1:1 credit on net-metering that carries over monthly but does expire at year end.  However, my credits (for overproduction) are worth 0.024 kWhr to 0.12 that I would have to use/buy from them for under producing.  I realize why the cost difference, just saying its not exactly a 1:1.  Also, I will still have a customer connection charge and  surge protection charge and all taxes related to that.   They local municipality mandates you stay connected to the grid.  

As far as DYI, you cant.  Both the utility and city require a licensed electrician.


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## peakbagger (Jun 5, 2022)

Being up in rural NH , the labor cost for a local journeyman is almost half of what it is in Eastern Mass.  Net metering with required yearly expiration or cash out requires some planning as they inevitably seem to cash out the program at the worst time of the year, usually winter so that summer credits can not be carried over.


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## peakbagger (Jun 6, 2022)

BTW the government just waived tariffs on panels on imported panels for two years. Panels pricing will drop soon once the supply chain fills up.









						Exclusive: Biden to waive tariffs for 24 months on solar panels hit by probe
					

President Joe Biden will declare a 24-month tariff exemption on Monday for solar panels from four Southeast Asian nations after an investigation froze imports and stalled projects in the United States, sources familiar with the matter told Reuters.




					www.reuters.com


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## FramerJ (Jun 11, 2022)

Got a second bid this week from a local company.  A 6.6K system using 18 Silfab Prime panels with IQ8+ inverters for $21600 ($16000 after tax credit).


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## Woodspliter (Jun 11, 2022)

Yeah I found I ver difficult to get any other installers even close to my 2.73 per watt price. I have a signed contract but no install date of yet. This is my design 28 rec alpha 405 with iq8M'S


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jun 22, 2022)

I think comparing cost to systems pre pandemic is not accurate. When my system was installed labor material fuel ect were much lower. Id check to see what the ROI would be. if its reasonable then its worth doing. if the ROI is way out there id be having second thoughts.


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## EbS-P (Jun 22, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> I think comparing cost to systems pre pandemic is not accurate. When my system was installed labor material fuel ect were much lower. Id check to see what the ROI would be. if its reasonable then its worth doing. if the ROI is way out there id be having second thoughts.


Don’t forget interest rates if financing.


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## Julki (Jun 22, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> I think comparing cost to systems pre pandemic is not accurate. When my system was installed labor material fuel ect were much lower. Id check to see what the ROI would be. if its reasonable then its worth doing. if the ROI is way out there id be having second thoughts.


I often see that people compare pre pandemic prices and I agree that this is not accurate. Times has been changed as prices.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jun 23, 2022)

Julki said:


> I often see that people compare pre pandemic prices and I agree that this is not accurate. Times has been changed as prices.



Id still do a system even if the ROI was longer. The life of the system say 25 years.. To break even say at 8/10 years.. then your living at least 15/17 years with no or a little utility bill


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## begreen (Jun 23, 2022)

None of us can predict the future. Solar was expensive back when we bought our system. In addition to the installation, it also needed trenching to get the wiring to the house and a new panel. That extended the payback period to 10 yrs. We are now past the break-even point. Whatever we get now is gravy. If electrical rates go up, so does the benefit. Same with our Volt. It was expensive when we bought it, but now with higher fuel prices, the payback is accelerating. In summertime, thanks to solar, the mileage is essentially free.


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## peakbagger (Jun 23, 2022)

Same with me, about 25 years ago the solar hot water went in, 20 years ago the first small solar system went in and since then two more permanent arrays and an upgrade to one of them have occurred.


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## FramerJ (Jun 25, 2022)

We got a revised bid after an on-site meeting with a local installer.  He knocked off an additional $1500 AND told us that our electric provider (Evergy) does still have a rebate initiative that expires at the end of 2022.  We will get a check for $1600 once installation is complete so this reduces our out-of-pocket cost to $13000 for that 6.6K system.  

Our ROI is still on the long side.  ROI is an important consideration but ultimately we are doing this to basically "lock in" electricity rates for the next 25 years.   Also, this is a cash deal- Im not sure in *todays* enviroment where I can park that money and get a much better ROI in 8-10 years.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jun 25, 2022)

FramerJ said:


> We got a revised bid after an on-site meeting with a local installer.  He knocked off an additional $1500 AND told us that our electric provider (Evergy) does still have a rebate initiative that expires at the end of 2022.  We will get a check for $1600 once installation is complete so this reduces our out-of-pocket cost to $13000 for that 6.6K system.
> 
> Our ROI is still on the long side.  ROI is an important consideration but ultimately we are doing this to basically "lock in" electricity rates for the next 25 years.   Also, this is a cash deal- Im not sure in *todays* enviroment where I can park that money and get a much better ROI in 8-10 years.



if you dont mined me asking.. how long will it take for the system to pay for itself


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## FramerJ (Jun 25, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> if you dont mined me asking.. how long will it take for the system to pay for itself


IF electric rates were to stay the same and the system produces a true net-zero result-- 8.8 years.


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## EbS-P (Jun 25, 2022)

FramerJ said:


> IF electric rates were to stay the same and the system produces a true net-zero result-- 8.8 years.


Seems like it’s a solid decision.  I don’t see how power rates don’t go up and stay there for quite some time.  If I had the cash on hand, and a decent location that would get Sun I’d probably do the install.  I do think power generation rates for renewables will keep dropping some but twitch materials and labor up we will probably see that flatline for a bit.  but I don’t see a a good green solution for base load in the short term, storage is probably the best.    

9 year or less ROI to be green seems like a good decision   Next 16+ years it is making money for you.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jun 25, 2022)

FramerJ said:


> IF electric rates were to stay the same and the system produces a true net-zero result-- 8.8 years.



Yes.. 8 yrs is not bad and the savings covers any payment..  so.. good decision


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## DBoon (Jul 1, 2022)

When I bought my first 5.3 kW array, payback was calculated at 16 years based on electricity at $0.10/kWh. 4 years later I added another 10 kW.  Last winter, electricity was $0.20/kWh a couple of months in a row, and it is routinely now $0.12 to $0.14/kWh. I'm not going to have to wait 16 years from install to get my money back.


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## peakbagger (Jul 1, 2022)

My utility in NH just announced a 115% increase in power costs (to over 21 cents plus a transmission charge and a few other surcharges) starting August 1st for the winter period (6 months).  I rolled the dice years ago and put in solar on a rate plan that was grandfathered, and it was effectively a onetime admission charge for effectively free power. I am glad I paid it when I did.


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## WiscWoody (Jul 12, 2022)

I’d like to go solar grid-tie in a few years but I want to reroof the house first. I don’t use much power now, just 150-165 KWh  for 9 months and 250-270 in the summer months for my very modest 865 sq ft home But I want to also buy a electric car sometime in the future so I’d figure that in my installation also. I had a recent quote $8900 for a complete install on the roof but I do not know the details as I said I can’t do it until the roof is done. A neighbor has a 2 axis solar tracking pedestal and it’s something to see but I don’t know if I’d go that way.


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## peakbagger (Jul 13, 2022)

Ideally you figure out the racking system and have the roofer install the mounts when they are reroofing, that way you do not have warranty issues when you install the solar system in a few years. Alternatively, you pay extra to install ice and water shield under the entire roof rather than just at the lower edge. If you install solar, in a few years, the penetrations from the solar mounts will self seal. Once ice and water shield is on a roof barring a tree fallng on it, its not going to leak, the shingles just act as UV protection for the shield plus no chance of ice damming leakage.

Tracking solar collectors are more of a kinetic moving sculpture than a financially viable solar system. Panels used to be expensive, so trackers reduced the number of panels needed, but with cheap panels its far better to install more fixed mount panels. Vermont had a special incentive for trackers made by an instate company so I see a lot of them in VT.


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## Rusty18 (Jul 13, 2022)

I’d pull the trigger on a grid tied install today if I had any kind of guarantee they wouldn’t change or do away with net metering in the next 10 years.  I ended up settling on a off grid system I assembled with limited battery capacity (currently two flooded 8d’s from rural king)  and just run my window ac on the panels during the day to avoid cycling of the batteries.  I’ll let you all know when I get the wall receptacle wore out! 
The downside is I don’t get use the panels to full capacity, the upside is I have 100% control over my system and it works when the power is out.   1.2kw worth of panels will run window ac and fridge no problem and batteries will run fridge for several hours if need be and I don’t have to listen to the generator...or feed it $6 gasoline.


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## Brian26 (Jul 14, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> I’d pull the trigger on a grid tied install today if I had any kind of guarantee they wouldn’t change or do away with net metering in the next 10 years.  I ended up settling on a off grid system I assembled with limited battery capacity (currently two flooded 8d’s from rural king)  and just run my window ac on the panels during the day to avoid cycling of the batteries.  I’ll let you all know when I get the wall receptacle wore out!
> The downside is I don’t get use the panels to full capacity, the upside is I have 100% control over my system and it works when the power is out.   1.2kw worth of panels will run window ac and fridge no problem and batteries will run fridge for several hours if need be and I don’t have to listen to the generator...or feed it $6 gasoline.


I don't know of any states that didn't grandfather all existing net metering systems when they made changes. When net metering is changed it usually only applies to new connections. CT just changed its net metering policy Jan 1st this year but all existing net metering systems are grandfathered in until 2039.


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## FramerJ (Jul 14, 2022)

Brian26 said:


> I don't know of any states that didn't grandfather all existing net metering systems when they made changes. When net metering is changed it usually only applies to new connections. CT just changed its net metering policy Jan 1st this year but all existing net metering systems are grandfathered in until 2039.


Are net metering guidelines set up by the State or by the electric co?  I guess its different state by state.


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## peakbagger (Jul 14, 2022)

Generally net metering legislation was forced on the public utilities in most states. Public utilities used to be pure monopolies where they generated the power and sold it with no competition. A law called PUPRA was passed to force them to buy power from 3rd parties and the utilities fought screamed and kicked to make it hard to do so. When the first grid tie inverters came onto the market from European markets, they rarely could be legally used as the utilities had very expensive and interconnection rules designed for large power plants and applied them to small renewable users. For a few years guerilla solar installs were being done but the utilities started to clamp down and started installing ratcheting meters that treat power in either direction as power bought from the utility. Guerilla solar could still work but the owner had to be careful to never generate more power than they were using or they would be paying for power that was going back to the grid. 

Many states finally stepped in and passed net metering laws that forced the utilities to accept small generators and made special pared down interconnect requirements for small generators usually under set limit. In my state of NH, the net metering rules were designed to "prime the pump" for small renewables but the legislation had a cap on the quantity of renewable that would qualify for true net metering. With the big drop in panel pricing and the federal solar incentives, that cap was reached and the legislature and governor had swung conservative and although additional solar was allowed it came with strings attached which diluted the value of net metering by putting in differential rates between what a homeowner is paid for power going into the grid compared to power coming out. There are also some states that have allowed the utilities to transfer costs from the unit power rate to the fixed account rate. So for the typical solar owner, their monthly minimum bill has gone up while they are selling power for considerably less than buying back. 

In my case in northern New England I use the grid as a seasonal battery. I store up power all summer to run my house and my plug in hybrid during the winter. I would need to reconsider things if net metering was modified but in theory I am grandfathered for my current systems. 

BTW I do small combined heat and power plants to supply hospitals and businesses. They are set up to sell power to the grid on rare occasions. 18 months to get permission to interconnect is real fast and 2 to 3 years is typical. The owner also has to pay the costs to update outdated utility infrastructure in some cases designed nearly 100 years ago. Three hundred and fifty thousand dollars is typical unless a "3VO" upgrade is needed and then that price doubles.  In many cases its not worth it and the project gets shelved until some other firm pays for the upgrades on their project.


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## FramerJ (Jul 16, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Generally net metering legislation was forced on the public utilities in most states. Public utilities used to be pure monopolies where they generated the power and sold it with no competition. A law called PUPRA was passed to force them to buy power from 3rd parties and the utilities fought screamed and kicked to make it hard to do so. When the first grid tie inverters came onto the market from European markets, they rarely could be legally used as the utilities had very expensive and interconnection rules designed for large power plants and applied them to small renewable users. For a few years guerilla solar installs were being done but the utilities started to clamp down and started installing ratcheting meters that treat power in either direction as power bought from the utility. Guerilla solar could still work but the owner had to be careful to never generate more power than they were using or they would be paying for power that was going back to the grid.
> 
> Many states finally stepped in and passed net metering laws that forced the utilities to accept small generators and made special pared down interconnect requirements for small generators usually under set limit. In my state of NH, the net metering rules were designed to "prime the pump" for small renewables but the legislation had a cap on the quantity of renewable that would qualify for true net metering. With the big drop in panel pricing and the federal solar incentives, that cap was reached and the legislature and governor had swung conservative and although additional solar was allowed it came with strings attached which diluted the value of net metering by putting in differential rates between what a homeowner is paid for power going into the grid compared to power coming out. There are also some states that have allowed the utilities to transfer costs from the unit power rate to the fixed account rate. So for the typical solar owner, their monthly minimum bill has gone up while they are selling power for considerably less than buying back.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Thanks for the response.  I appreciate your time.

I dont understand the aversion to solar and why it has to be made complicated.  Well, actually I do.  Its all about the money and the utility provider is going to get theirs and I dont have a lobbyist with an office at the State capital.  Minimum monthly fees, grid-connection fees, infrastructure upkeep fees, or whatever.  I know I wil still be using the grid so there is a cost, but I will be paying for that when I sell the power I produce for cents on the dollar


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## begreen (Jul 16, 2022)

There is a dark side to this story. 





						Utilities' Anti-Solar Campaign and Misinformation Debunked
					

Utility companies along with the Edison Electric Institute have launched a multi-year anti-solar campaign to weaken net metering policies across the country




					www.energyandpolicy.org


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## peakbagger (Jul 16, 2022)

The Koch families support ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council), one of their many targets is pulling back solar legislation or opposing new legislation.

Net metering and incentives were intended to "prime the pump" for solar. It was a chicken and egg situation, solar panels were very expensive ($10 a rated watt) until the demand went up and the demand would not go up until the price of solar and the barriers to installation were dropped. Solar is now theoretical at parity with other sources , yet the pump priming continues. Many entrepreneurs figured that out several years ago and make a bundle "renting" people's roof via PPAs and leases. Solar should be at the point of standing on its own but there is now an industry that has grown accustomed to incentives. It makes sense that some of the incentives for new installations need to be trimmed and possibly phased out. It doesn't make sense to throw roadblocks with little or no technical basis in the way of additional home solar. 

A little bit of solar on the grid is not a bad thing but as Hawaii and California has learned there is such a thing as too much solar on the grid unless changes are made to the grid and that usually means large batteries, pumped storage if its available and demand pricing. If the utilities would focus on long term planning for more renewables it would be the way to go but most are just trying to make money on past business practices. Berkshire Hathaway has figured it out, they bought a couple of utilities and adding renewables as fast as they can. They still need to move power around and maintain the equipment to do so, and they are making good money doing so.


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## woodgeek (Jul 18, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> A little bit of solar on the grid is not a bad thing but as Hawaii and California has learned there is such a thing as too much solar on the grid unless changes are made to the grid and that usually means large batteries, pumped storage if its available and demand pricing. If the utilities would focus on long term planning for more renewables it would be the way to go but most are just trying to make money on past business practices. Berkshire Hathaway has figured it out, they bought a couple of utilities and adding renewables as fast as they can. They still need to move power around and maintain the equipment to do so, and they are making good money doing so.



Well said.  Starts to be an issue around 10-20% energy, depending on seasonal and load factors.  But the US average is currently sneaking up on 3% of total generation... and so the anti-solar folks are doing real harm.

I think the utilities also have an incentive to discourage rooftop solar so they can build their own (grid-tie, unbuffered) solar plants themselves for profit.


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## EbS-P (Jul 18, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> The Koch families support ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council), one of their many targets is pulling back solar legislation or opposing new legislation.
> 
> Net metering and incentives were intended to "prime the pump" for solar. It was a chicken and egg situation, solar panels were very expensive ($10 a rated watt) until the demand went up and the demand would not go up until the price of solar and the barriers to installation were dropped. Solar is now theoretical at parity with other sources , yet the pump priming continues. Many entrepreneurs figured that out several years ago and make a bundle "renting" people's roof via PPAs and leases. Solar should be at the point of standing on its own but there is now an industry that has grown accustomed to incentives. It makes sense that some of the incentives for new installations need to be trimmed and possibly phased out. It doesn't make sense to throw roadblocks with little or no technical basis in the way of additional home solar.
> 
> A little bit of solar on the grid is not a bad thing but as Hawaii and California has learned there is such a thing as too much solar on the grid unless changes are made to the grid and that usually means large batteries, pumped storage if its available and demand pricing. If the utilities would focus on long term planning for more renewables it would be the way to go but most are just trying to make money on past business practices. Berkshire Hathaway has figured it out, they bought a couple of utilities and adding renewables as fast as they can. They still need to move power around and maintain the equipment to do so, and they are making good money doing so.


I have been following ERCOT demand and supply graphs. The past few times I have seen the patter of wind generation peaking during night and solar of course during the day.  Is this predictable enough rely on. 





__





						Combined Wind and Solar
					






					www.ercot.com


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## peakbagger (Jul 18, 2022)

Keep in mind many states forced utilities to sell off their generation years ago, the utilities no longer own the power plants, they just act as a middleman to distribute the power from the generators to customers. Therefore they can not install solar or wind but they still oppose distributed generation.


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## begreen (Jul 18, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> If the utilities would focus on long term planning for more renewables it would be the way to go but most are just trying to make money on past business practices.


I just read an article about how dairy farmers in NY and other east coast spots are turning off their anaerobic digestion system generators because the paltry payment of 3¢ per kw was too low to maintain their equipment. They need at least double that amount to break even. In VT the return is much higher and therefore sustainable.


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## Wildbil26 (Jul 18, 2022)

FramerJ said:


> Following in Woodsplitters recent post about going solar, I recently met with an installer.  It would be a rooftop 6K system using 15 REC alpha series pure 400wp panels with enphase  IQ7+ inverters.   I was quoted $23000 ($17000 after tax credit). This seems a bit high based on everything I have read but I am ignorant of what it actually does cost to have panels installed.   Does anybody have a thought on this?  Thanks for your time.


I had my solar system installed in December 2021. I do not have all the system specifics but it is similar to the one you were quoted with 20 REC panels. I am in Northern NH and GSS did the install. I love the system. In the winter months I have an electric bill due to the sun being low in the sky and behind some trees a lot, but since April the electric company owes me money. I paid 27k and change so 23k sounds about right. The company handled every detail… they contacted the city for permits, electric company for the new meter and dealt with the rebate paperwork. I have no regrets and love my system! I now use my minisplits for heat and it saves me a ton on propane heating costs along with the electric bill savings. So far I produce between 700kwh and 1.1mwh a month. Only thing I would change is I would have gone with ten more panels to help with making more power during cloudy and rainy days and a battery backup to supplement night time power usage… but that is just me. These are additions I will be making in the future. I think its one of the best investments in my home I have made.


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## peakbagger (Jul 18, 2022)

Wildbil26 said:


> I had my solar system installed in December 2021. I do not have all the system specifics but it is similar to the one you were quoted with 20 REC panels. I am in Northern NH and GSS did the install. I love the system. In the winter months I have an electric bill due to the sun being low in the sky and behind some trees a lot, but since April the electric company owes me money. I paid 27k and change so 23k sounds about right. The company handled every detail… they contacted the city for permits, electric company for the new meter and dealt with the rebate paperwork. I have no regrets and love my system! I now use my minisplits for heat and it saves me a ton on propane heating costs along with the electric bill savings. So far I produce between 700kwh and 1.1mwh a month. Only thing I would change is I would have gone with ten more panels to help with making more power during cloudy and rainy days and a battery backup to supplement night time power usage… but that is just me. These are additions I will be making in the future. I think its one of the best investments in my home I have made.


So do you include your SREC sales in the payback?. There is active but low paying SREC market in NH, takes a bit of paperwork to set up but it covers my monthly charges for the privilege of being hooked up to gird with 4.6 KW of panels enrolled.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jul 18, 2022)

Wildbil26 said:


> I had my solar system installed in December 2021. I do not have all the system specifics but it is similar to the one you were quoted with 20 REC panels. I am in Northern NH and GSS did the install. I love the system. In the winter months I have an electric bill due to the sun being low in the sky and behind some trees a lot, but since April the electric company owes me money. I paid 27k and change so 23k sounds about right. The company handled every detail… they contacted the city for permits, electric company for the new meter and dealt with the rebate paperwork. I have no regrets and love my system! I now use my minisplits for heat and it saves me a ton on propane heating costs along with the electric bill savings. So far I produce between 700kwh and 1.1mwh a month. Only thing I would change is I would have gone with ten more panels to help with making more power during cloudy and rainy days and a battery backup to supplement night time power usage… but that is just me. These are additions I will be making in the future. I think its one of the best investments in my home I have made.



Bro.. you need to change your anniversary date.. You should never sell any of your credited electric. My anniversary was September which ment that ALL of my electricity generated and credited all sumer is sold to them at a.lower rate. That ment at the end of September I get a check from them and am now purchasing power from them. I changed my anniversary date to March because April is a break even month, I consume as much as I generated.  All summer I build a credit, over the winter I use my credit and buy the time march rolls around my credit is gone and there is nothing for them to credit me.. Your system payback is slower because your generating power and selling it for  less than what its actually worth and purchasing power at a higher rate. You should never get a check from them.,  I hope I explained that well enough without making it overly confusing..


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## peakbagger (Jul 18, 2022)

I have had a surplus for many years in Nh and never tempted to sell my credit. I get the letter every year but they are paying  a really low rate. The only reason I might sell is if I am selling the house as the credit stays with the house.


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## Rusty18 (Jul 19, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> I have had a surplus for many years in Nh and never tempted to sell my credit. I get the letter every year but they are paying  a really low rate. The only reason I might sell is if I am selling the house as the credit stays with the house.


Buddy who got me convinced to go with panels lives in WV.  His net metering agreement stipulates that he must be a net consumer (on an annual basis) and it resets December 31, any surplus on the books at that point is forfeit.  Kinda of a raw deal but he sized it so he generally uses up his summer surplus before he forfeits any.


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## stoveliker (Jul 19, 2022)

I still have the NY net metering where my credit bank does not expire for 20 years. I thought I had to reset (indeed, in March, which is my break even month) every year. But nope. My credit bank is slowly growing - until I get an electric car.


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## peakbagger (Jul 19, 2022)

I have to admit with surplus solar I have let a few energy thieves sneak into the house. I have two outdoor cameras with IR illumination that is in 24/7. I think the total camera is 200 Watts each. I could probably go inside each one and disconnect the IR LEDs and save a lot of power. I also have refrigerator that I think has a problem with a defrost timer, I just need to spend the time to empty it and check out the timer but it keeps things cold so I dont mess with it. I probably could roam the house and find a few other phantom loads but with surplus its easier not to deal with it


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## DBoon (Aug 13, 2022)

begreen said:


> I just read an article about how dairy farmers in NY and other east coast spots are turning off their anaerobic digestion system generators because the paltry payment of 3¢ per kw was too low to maintain their equipment. They need at least double that amount to break even.


In New York state, there is really a divide between low cost electricity (north and west) and high cost electricity (south and east). If you go much east of Utica, NY power prices are much higher, and also much higher along the Hudson River and down into NY City and Long Island. Also, 85% of the power for Central, Northern and Western NY is generated renewably (wind, solar, or hydro) or by nuclear. There are transmission line capacity constraints from the cheaper power areas to the more costly power areas. 

When I sell my excess solar PV back to the grid at my net metering reset date, I typically get between 2 and 4 cents per kWh (average avoided cost), so I could understand a 3 cents per kWh for the dairy farmers. I think it should be higher, but that is probably the "market" rate. A higher rate would certainly do a better job of dealing with manure than storing it in a pond and then spreading it over fields (mostly)  uncomposted, as seems to happen a lot around here.

Vermont used to be about 70% nuclear until they shut their nuke plant down. I am guessing that the retail power rates are higher there since the shutdown, hence the reason the farmers get a better rate for their bio-gas generation.


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## peakbagger (Aug 13, 2022)

VT get most of its power from Canadian Hydro, they have very generous incentive programs for renewables including cowpower funded by the ratepayers. Several large windfarms did get built but they were in rural areas and made a lot of enemies. It has been tough to get any new ones permitted for several years.

The cowpower plants only make sense on very large diary operations, thecowpower digesters reduce the volume of dairy waste that needs to go on the fields and the farmers can recycle a lot of the cellulosic waste back for cow bedding.


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