# Viesmann



## wdc1160 (Jan 10, 2008)

Has anyone seen a viesmann in the US other than at a trade show?  Does someone sell them?
Anyone know how their modulation of output works?  Any impressions?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 10, 2008)

You can probably find all the information you want to know about Viesmann here:

http://www.heatinghelp.com

Go to The Wall forum. They talk about Viesmans and modulating/condensing boilers all the time. I'd post a direct link but for some reason, my laptop can't access the site. Must be I asked a stupid question and got banned!


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 10, 2008)

If I can ever get the WAF up high enough, I am gonna buy one of those and sneak it across the pond. 

"The unique automatic heat-up
system ensures that the
combustion chamber temperature
required for optimum combustion
is reached within three minutes of
start-up."

Intriguing!!


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## jklingel (Jan 10, 2008)

When I called Viessmann back East a few months ago, they were not importing wood boilers... yet. Their oil boilers are very popular up here, and my son's is a very impressive piece of engineering. If their woodies ever get over here, I will sure look at them.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 10, 2008)

I am really thinking about sneaking one if I know that the modulation is actually modulation.  And, not a incorrect translation from German to English.

Modulation could be the holy grail of wood burning


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## guy01 (Jan 10, 2008)

Let tje uneducated chime in, modulation is what
Guy


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## wdc1160 (Jan 10, 2008)

Great question???
I will put it how I think it makes most sense.  If someone doesn't like my explanation please correct it.

If I can change my boiler to operate with differing quantities of wood effciently I would consider it modulating.
If I can change my boiler to operate with differing levels of output (amounts of heat) effciently I would consider it modulating.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 11, 2008)

As I recall, someone over on HeatingHelp corrected me to say that my Viessmann oil boiler is NOT a mod/con. So maybe modulating is not the greatest thing since sliced bread?


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## wdc1160 (Jan 11, 2008)

could you tell me what you mean.. mod/con??


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## Nofossil (Jan 11, 2008)

Guy said:
			
		

> Let tje uneducated chime in, modulation is what
> Guy



I always chime in when invited ;-)

What I'm looking for that might be called modulation is air control to deal with the surface area and producer gas generation rate variation between different loads of wood. If you load up with busted up pallets, my EKO will generate more fuel gas than it can burn - not good. With a load of all big rounds, it blows too much air through for the amount of flammable gas produced. 

I I can't get that, I'll settle for matching the output to the heat load.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 11, 2008)

> What I’m looking for that might be called modulation is air control to deal with the surface area and producer gas generation rate variation between different loads of wood. If you load up with busted up pallets, my EKO will generate more fuel gas than it can burn - not good. With a load of all big rounds, it blows too much air through for the amount of flammable gas produced.




Nofo
  Have you seen this claim in their literature?


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## Bartman (Jan 12, 2008)

Looks like many of the boiler companies are coming out with wall hung condensing gas boilers. But how about oil fired? The Monitor FCX is a condensing oil unit.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 12, 2008)

yah, I know some HVAC guru's who don't like the condensing wall hung jobs.  Are u a fan?


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## Bartman (Jan 12, 2008)

Ever seen the electronics in these wall hung units? Even the wall hung DHW propane units can be a little scary. Everthing is great when they work, when they fail, it's probably cheaper to buy a new one.


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## heaterman (Jan 13, 2008)

RE wall hungs, mod/cons, gas and oil and Viessmann wood burners.

I sell and install a lot of Viessmann equipment. It is without peer in the boiler industry IMHO. Whatever they choose to manufacture is done with the primary goal being how good can we make it rather than what price point do we want to hit. Sometimes I wish they paid a tad more attention to the price point but then they wouldn't be Viessmann. I long and pray for the day when they bring their wood and pellet fired equipment over here. Friends of mine who have been to "Der Faderland" and seen their stuff make me drool when describing the products they see there. 

Modern heating equipment IS more complex than the old standing pilot gas boiler that lasted for 50 years+. Most (not all) the new stuff is just not going to last as long. It can't due to its design. Average life of a new gas furnace industry wide is now only 11 years from what I  read.  Flue passageways in a standard cast iron boiler are measured in inches. Flue passageways in a modern modulating/condensing (mod/con) boiler are measured in millimeters or in the case of Viessmann's Vitodens model, tenths of a millimeter. Those kind of tolerances leave little to no room for error, hence the absolute necessity of having them professionally service every year. To give you an idea of the stresses involved in a modern gas fired condenser take a look at the afore mentioned Vitodens. The heat exchanger is a rectangular piece of drawn 316TI stainless steel which if laid out straight would be approximately 30 or so feet long. This tube is coiled in a continuous loop about 12" in diameter. The cross section of the tube is roughly 1 1/2" by 5/8". Flue gas passes between each loop at a speed of 45 MPH (you read that correctly, 45MPH). Now here's the amazing part. The flue gas temperature drops from 1,700* down to within 18-20* of return water temp in that 1 1/2" space. How long does it take to travel 1 1/2" at 45 miles per hour?.......Those kinds of things just blow me away when I think about the energy transfer rate! 

Compare your car to what you drove 25-30 years ago (if you're old enough) It now has fuel injection, electronic engine control that continuously monitors everything going on in the engine and makes adjustments while underway, plus a 4-6 speed automatic transmission with electronic lockup of the torque converter. A 70's model got half the mileage and ran like a pile of junk. 

Term definitions:

Modulating, as it pertains to boilers. The ability to regulate heat/btu output based on a calculated parameter, usually a target water temperature. The burner will reduce it's output through reduction of fuel and air input as the target temp is reached and ramp back up if more load is applied in the form of falling water temps. Think of modulation as cruise control for your burner.

Condensing, as it applies to boilers. The ability of a heating appliance to extract so much heat from the flue gas that it changes state from a vapor back into a liquid thereby giving up the latent heat held in the flue gas. When captured, this heat can be transferred into the conditioned space.

Complexity? better get used to it. More efficiency and complexity go hand in hand for now.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 13, 2008)

Thanks for your opinions and thoughts on the topic heaterman.  I now want one of their "vitrolig" line more than ever now.  And, it doesn't seem I can have it.  

The Indianapolis branch of Viessmann shut the door hard in my face about getting a vitrolig.  Monday I plan on going to a meeting with a client who has a factory in China.  I'll ask him if he can get his hands on a boiler through their Chinese distribution center.  PS I can do all of this legally, and routinely bring electornics and equpimpment over from Europe and Asia.  


As for technology
Heaterman,  sometimes I think that if you went back even 50 -70 years and tried to explain some the concepts we use in our everday lives that they would have you committed.
This weekend my cousin directed me from google maps to show me where he works.  I switched to satelite mode and he directed me from building to building until I saw which building was his.
He works in Missawa Japan


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## Bartman (Jan 13, 2008)

Modulation is great when it comes to gas, but modulating an oil fired boiler, I haven't seen that yet. Yes, it's true the technology is here to stay, but it's not to say it's gonna be cheap to maintain. Like I said, they're great when they're running good, when they fail. it's not cheap, and you can't "rig" it to run temporily either. True, it's like today's cars they run great until they fail, then call a tow truck. With today's electronics, your house better be protected from power surge and lightning strike, because just one surge can toast all the electronic controls in not only your new burner/boiler, but all your new "high efficiency" equipment.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 13, 2008)

Just to clearify,  we were talking about modulating with a wood boiler.   You guys keeping talking about oil and gas.  Just want to be clear.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 13, 2008)

Zenon claims he has seen the Viessmann wood gasification boiler being built at the EKO Vimar plant.. 
 He could have been halucinating, however??  I know he has visited mamny boiler manufacturers across Europe.  He knows most of the major players.

 hr


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## wdc1160 (Jan 13, 2008)

Seems that he could have eaten a bad polish mushroom that day


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## heaterman (Jan 13, 2008)

From what I've heard through the people that I've talked "off the record" with about their wood equipment, the powers that be at Viessmann (private family owned company) feel that there is not enough demand nor are fuel prices high enough here to make their high end wood equipment available to us. I disagree but then I'm not the company looking at hundreds of thousands of $$.$$ it costs to get approvals from UL and ASME  in order to sell here.  From what I understand the Vitolig 300 would sell for over $10K here..........maybe they're right............add installation and the automatic fuel storage hopper to that and you'd soon be crowding $18-20K What I'd love to see is for them to buy out or build a manufacturing facility here in North America somewhere.  You could all get on the phone or e-mail Viessmann and put a bug in their ear..........who knows. 

I think there may be some truth to Zenon's statement about the manufacturing facility building the Vitolig boiler. Viessmann is a multinational company that builds their stuff all over the world. They use many facilities to build the products they design. Wood and other alternative fuels like heat pumps, fuel cells and solar are becoming a larger and larger part of their product line. They have some really cool solar stuff. I know that they just bought a company that makes very large wood and bio-mass fired boilers. Well up into the millions of btu's output. They see the handwriting on the wall more clearly than a lot of companies. 


Modulating oil is available across the pond. Both Viessmann and Buderus have oil burners out that are so clean running they actually burn with a blue flame. I think that Buderus is bringing theirs here this year in non-modulating form. Dealers may sell and install them only after attending special training for them in the Buderus facility in New Hampshire. These are a totally different type of unit and definitely NOT you father's oil burner. Service by a non certified person voids any and all warranties on the burner and equipment it's installed on.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 13, 2008)

The viesmann indy guys noted the lack of asme ul listing and blamed that as the reason.

For all I know Zenon has never told a lie, and EKO builds 100% of their equip in EKO's factories.  I was just mocking


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## heaterman (Jan 13, 2008)

As I alluded too above, Zenon may very well be correct. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Viessmann looks for low cost manufacturing just like any other manufacturer.

Codes and listings to sell here frustrate the heck out of all the Euro guys because their stuff already meets a much tougher standard than UL or ASME. The German TUV rating is the highest bar there is in heating equipment from what I've learned.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 13, 2008)

Are u posting under two different user names?
heaterman and masterofsparks.


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## Bartman (Jan 13, 2008)

Modulation of a wood boiler could be cool and achievable by utilizing extensive control with analog inputs and outputs. It wouldn't necessarily be as precise as a gas modulating unit, but it could be just the beginning. 

MPI (Monitor Products) makes a condensing oil unit. Even though they're located in NJ, they have Japanese roots, I don't know if they still are, but I know their burner is made here.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 13, 2008)

I've heard too that Orlan manufacturs equipment for a major German boiler mfg. and Viessman sounds right. I also noticed the other day that the blowers on my EKO 60 are made in Germany, which surprised me.

This discussion is way over my head, but could you modulate a wood gasifier by changing the size of the nozzle openings, like what some of us have done with a firebrick over one of the nozzles? Maybe some sliding ceramic valve activated by a bimetal device or motor?

I think Zenon knows what he's talking about, at least where wood gasification boilers are concerned.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 13, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> As I alluded too above, Zenon may very well be correct. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Viessmann looks for low cost manufacturing just like any other manufacturer.
> 
> Codes and listings to sell here frustrate the heck out of all the Euro guys because their stuff already meets a much tougher standard than UL or ASME. The German TUV rating is the highest bar there is in heating equipment from what I've learned.



TUV does have a branch here in the USofA.  Salem, NH as I recall.  It would be nice to see that standard gain acceptence.

 hr


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## heaterman (Jan 13, 2008)

I have a feeling that Master of Sparks is I guy I know pretty well but it's not me. I'm just the heaterman.  

HR.........that you Hot Rod?


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## Bartman (Jan 13, 2008)

Instead of varying nozzle size, you would probably want to vary the air at the fan where temps would be lower and easier to control.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 13, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> I have a feeling that Master of Sparks is I guy I know pretty well but it's not me. I'm just the heaterman.
> 
> HR.........that you Hot Rod?



That's what I think. Very few people, (besides you, heaterman), are that knowledgeable and helpful when it comes to heating questions and alternative energy.


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## brad068 (Jan 14, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I've heard too that Orlan manufacturs equipment for a major German boiler mfg. and Viessman sounds right. I also noticed the other day that the blowers on my EKO 60 are made in Germany, which surprised me.
> 
> This discussion is way over my head, but could you modulate a wood gasifier by changing the size of the nozzle openings, like what some of us have done with a firebrick over one of the nozzles? Maybe some sliding ceramic valve activated by a bimetal device or motor?
> 
> I think Zenon knows what he's talking about, at least where wood gasification boilers are concerned.



I think Zenon is right too. I heard that over in Europe before the wall fell that the eastern European countries copied alot of western technology. How can you file a patent infringement against rebel countries backed by the Soviet Union. When the USSR and wall fell that western companies purchased these companies because they were already copying and they could get their same products manufactured for alot cheaper. Easier to purchase and employ than try to compete against the same product at half the price. I think this is what is happening between Japan and China or what has happened between USA and China for that matter. The more intricate parts, fans, switches, controllers ,etc. are still going to be German made and the lost cost labor can do the "bull" work; welding, forming, assembling, painting, etc.

My two cents


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 14, 2008)

I think the Poles have a long tradition of quality manufacturing, as did the East Germans. I'm thinking about the Polish shipyards or the nice East German lathes and milling machines I've seen at manufacturing plants in Finland. Maybe all that Point Special beer I drank in my misspent youth softened me up to the whole Polish point of view. But I agree with your basic point--labor is a lot cheaper in the old Soviet Bloc countries, and if the mfg. quality is comparable, that's a good way to cut costs.

I'd like to know who came up with the basic Euro downdraft gasifier design. Tarm has been marketing it in this country for decades, but did they invent it, or was it that professor up in Maine who invented the JetStream boiler? They're deceptively simple, but as nofossil pointed out in a recent thread, there's a lot of pretty fancy engineering that went into the basic design.

And did Fred Seton invent the Seton/Greenfire/Adobe/Black Bear/et. al.-style refractory gasifier?


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## Buck1200 (Jan 14, 2008)

Instead of varying nozzle size, you would probably want to vary the air at the fan where temps would be lower and easier to control.

I think this is how the current state of the art gassification boilers in Europe operate (KWB, ETA, etc.).  There is a main, variable speed draft inducer fan in the flue, and servo motor driven air ports independently controlling both primary and secondary air flow.  

If I have this correct: primary air will regulate the rate at which volatile hydrocarbons are released from the wood- this would be the throttle- where secondary air simply controls the quality and cleanliness of the burn closed loop to an oxygen sensor and flue gas temperature sensor.  Flue temperature would be the other 'throttle'- they seem to control to a specific flue gas temperature which I presume is how they can claim 90-92% efficiencies.  I guess that's total heat transfer efficiency.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 14, 2008)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, buck. Northeast Kingdom?


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## Buck1200 (Jan 14, 2008)

On the border.  I'm just north of Stowe.  

No boiler yet, just an epa Hearthstone, an oil guzzling furnace, and aspirations of heating granduer.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 14, 2008)

Well, you came to the right place.


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## EForest (Jan 14, 2008)

And did Fred Seton invent the Seton/Greenfire/Adobe/Black Bear/et. al.-style refractory gasifier? 

if you ask Fred the answer is YES!!
He started building his boiler 20+ years ago.
The rest of them are copycats, some better than others.
Fred won't elaberate beyond that.... unlessss you ask.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 15, 2008)

Some interesting quotes about the viesmann 

Modulating output between 50 to 100 percent 
12 hr guarnteed between recharging
Oxygen is removed from combusion chamber to regulate oxydation
effciency up to 92%


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## Grover59 (Jan 15, 2008)

gasifierwanabee said:
			
		

> And did Fred Seton invent the Seton/Greenfire/Adobe/Black Bear/et. al.-style refractory gasifier?
> 
> if you ask Fred the answer is YES!!
> He started building his boiler 20+ years ago.
> ...



The Black Bear is quite different in that it is a down draft cumbustion type very much like a Tarm or EKO, instead it uses a water tube hx instead of fire tube. 
The Fred Seton , Greenwood  are not down draft. and if I am not mistaken do not use forced combustion air.

Really a Big difference 

Steve


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 15, 2008)

You're right--I remember that from the diagram on the website before they took it down. And I don't believe the Seton or the Greenwood uses a blower, either.

But the Black Bear doesn't have a nozzle like the EKO, does it? Just one combustion chamber?


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## Grover59 (Jan 15, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> You're right--I remember that from the diagram on the website before they took it down. And I don't believe the Seton or the Greenwood uses a blower, either.
> 
> But the Black Bear doesn't have a nozzle like the EKO, does it? Just one combustion chamber?



Yes that is right the Black Bear has 3 bottom bricks of refractory giving 3 slots about 1 inch each and are about 16" wide, the hot gases pass down through the hot coals and out of these slots, and are mixed with the new hot secondary air.  So I guess the Black Bear has like 3 nozzles, they do get plugged at times and this is one of the problems with this design, they are easy to clean out but sometimes you may be running with only one or two going. The guy that designed this boiler has come up with a new design for the bottom bricks I have a set but I have not put them in yet, for those that have they say that they are a good improvement over the old, they plug very little. One thing that the Black Bear boiler has in common with the Seton is the hx, it is a water tube design but in reverse, it starts at the front bottom and goes to the back top where the flue gases are sent to the chimney. The Seton starts at the top front and goes down the back to the bottom where the flue gases go to the chimney.  The Seton boiler the flue pipe attaches to the bottom of the boiler and the Black Bear is on the top. 

Steve


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## PARCO (Jan 31, 2008)

Yes Viessmann is around and in use.  I live and work in the Northeast Kingdom OF Vermont.  I have worked in the mechanical and plumbing trades for 28 years, and for my money, their products are the best you can get. I have A Viessmann Vitola oil fired boiler (nonmodulating) in my own house, and droped my fuel compstumption by almost 40%.  As for the modulating units you were talking about, the Vitoden wall mount boiler comes in either LP or Natural Gas options, and is my first choice when installing in a new home with gas.  You can check them out @ www.viessmann-us.com.  Good luck


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 31, 2008)

I also have the Vitola, but what we are talking about here is the Vitolig wood burner. That, I don't believe, you have ever seen in the US.

Anyway, for those not convinced about the quality of German engineering, I give you the attached axample


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 31, 2008)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, PARCO. I love the Northeast Kingdom. A friend of mine claims to be the King, but I think he's kidding.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks PARCO,  

I actually think I am going with the vitolig 150.  It puts out 25KW and will hopefully be supported more in the US soon.  In indianapolis they have a viesmann office that vowed they would help me if I needed parts, but mostly I am going to rely on the german engineering thing
deadbtu is talking about. (I think)


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## Buck1200 (Jan 31, 2008)

If I may ask- are they importing it for you specifically or are you arranging that yourself?

Also, the german Viessman website lists product offerings of 100, 200, and 300 series boilers.  I know the 200 & 300 are rebadged Windhager units but I'm not sure about the 100.  What does the 150 look like?


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## Como (Jan 31, 2008)

http://www.viessmann.lt/web/lithuania/lt_publish.nsf/Content/Vitolig150-Produktschnitt_lithuanian

Lots of pictures if you google it


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 31, 2008)

Looks a lot like an EKO to me. Didn't somebody say that Orlan (EKO) manufactures that boiler for Viesmann? If so, I'd say they also supplied the design.


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## Buck1200 (Jan 31, 2008)

Yes, I agree- it looks very much like an EKO.  All of the hits were of eastern european persuasion, as well.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 31, 2008)

I got access from an electic engineer I work with. He is from CZ and has a relative who is a dealer in CZ.   Sold it for the same price as EKO(including ship).  And, nearly everthing on it seems very EKOish.

You got any pictures of czech chicks deadbtu???

Yah, someone mentioned that zenon said they manufacture them all in the same plants.  
Viessmann in  Indy told me they would stand by it.  And, they expect to be selling them in the US someday.

I rolled the dice


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 31, 2008)

So does your nameplate say Viessmann or a CZ mfg? Have you received it yet? How big?

That's exciting. Zenon used to sell a CZ brand or two. Atmos maybe? Remember what somebody said about changing the controller fuse in those Euro units.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 31, 2008)

viessman.  its a cz reseller. 25kw.  No I haven't gotten it yet.  I just paid on TU of this week.  So I expect it in a 3 weeks

What controller fuse??


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 31, 2008)

Here's the quote from Rob Reinhart talking about the BioMax.

"One other problem I came across was I blew the 2A fuse in the back of the control which shut everything down except of course the fire.  I had a slight overheat, but fortunately we found it quickly.  The draft blower is rated at 1.4 amps and I couldn’t find the primary rating but a 2 amp fuse seemed too small.  I asked Zenon and he told me 2A was good for the 230V electric in Europe.  Over here it should be a 4A fuse.  So if yours is 2A still you may want to change it."

But that does raise the question about whether your blower is going to be 110 or 220.

It will be interesting to compare your results with nofossil, since he has the EKO 25. You guys may understand what each other is saying, even if the rest of us don't.

It will be great to have a rare Viessmann in our growing collection of gasifiers on this site.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 31, 2008)

I shy away from alot of plumping and heat exchange work, but electronics is in my wheelhouse.  I don't expect the controller itself to stay stock for long.  if I have to work around a fuse or two it could put me back a day, but I'll work it over eventually.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 31, 2008)

Chicks from ALL countries can be beautifully engineered. . .well, all EXCEPT those from WalMart!

Seriously though, I'd trade a German chick for a Vitolig anyday, but not a Swedish


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 31, 2008)

But seriously . . . I think you want http://www.viessmann.de/en/products/Holzkessel/vitolig_200.html

the 200 is supposedly a modulating gassifier, not so sure you want the 150.


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## Burn-1 (Jan 31, 2008)

After seeing that some of the other Vitolig units are rebadged Windhagers I checked out this site:

Windhager UK 

The HMX is basically a Vitolig 200

Some neat stuff. I like the combined range/boiler too. Natural draft, not a ton of BTUs in the boiler but a cool multi-tasker.

I'm wondering if you could import from them?

Edit: 

The Vitolig 150 is an Orlan according to the German 'Boiler Room' forum



> Der Vitolig 150 ist nämlich ein Orlan von Firma Eko-Vimar Orlanski aus Polen.


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## Buck1200 (Jan 31, 2008)

The design guide on the UK Windhager site has prices, which for a moment I thought they were reasonable until I realized they were in english pounds rather than euros.  Ouch!


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 31, 2008)

I was shocked at the current exchange rate for Euros--yikes--something like .65 $ per E. Last time I was in Europe, they were at par, and I thought that sucked.

You're amazing, Burn-1. Good to see the Germans are as nuts as us when it comes to obsessing on their wood heat.

I like the refrigerator styling on the 200 and the HMX. Have a Becks while I'm waiting for the boiler to get up to temp and maybe chat up Jimbo's girlfriend while I'm there, just to make the trip to the boiler room complete.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 31, 2008)

You ain't chattin up the Swede, no way no how. The German GF or for that matter, any other make or model you can chat up to your heart's content. Just have her bring me a Brewski too ;-) 

Oh, BTW, you think I'm an obstinate prick now, wait till someone here gets a Vitolig200 before I do :coolmad:


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## Burn-1 (Jan 31, 2008)

buck1200 said:
			
		

> The design guide on the UK Windhager site has prices, which for a moment I thought they were reasonable until I realized they were in english pounds rather than euros.  Ouch!



Yeah and that's exclusive of VAT too. On the plus side if there is one, it appears that the ~8,850 sterling for the basic HMX includes an indirect DHW tank, a buffer tank, system controls but still that would suggest the boiler alone is probably close to $10K and those prices listed are as of 2006.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 31, 2008)

LOL, you cheap bass turds, my oil boiler and DHW tank cost that much three years ago. Did you think you were gonna buy this stuff off the back of a truck in an alley someplace in Jersey?!??


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## Burn-1 (Jan 31, 2008)

Looking back on this thread. Heaterman was pretty much dead on with what a Viessmann solid fuel setup would cost over here.



> ...From what I understand the Vitolig 300 would sell for over $10K here..........maybe they’re right............add installation and the automatic fuel storage hopper to that and you’d soon be crowding $18-20K...


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## Buck1200 (Jan 31, 2008)

I know, I know... I keep having to remind myself of what I'm willing to spend on a car when I think about buying this kind of equipment.  I forget who here said it first, but the best place to keep your energy is in the wood, and as such I find myself extremely curious about this 'modulating' firing rate business which the Austrians and Germans seem to be selling.  

Since it requires servo motors, oxygen sensors, and little genies to keep that fire on the hairy edge of clean combustion and low output, I guess we have to expect that the cost is going to quite a bit different than what we're used to seeing here.  I just wish I could actually see one work!


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## Mmaul (Jan 31, 2008)

I new to hydronic heating I have a question about the viton 150 wall mount is this a hydronic type of heater? If so this seems like are really small package for a system compared to whats in my house.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 31, 2008)

The car will cost more, pollute more, and be worthless in a few years.

On the upside, the car may help you pick up chicks. . .but if you can find one that comes home and oggles that $18k boiler setup . . .KEEP HER You can always hitchhike :coolsmile:


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## wdc1160 (Feb 1, 2008)

Burn-1 said:
			
		

> buck1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This CZ dealer doesn't think that HMX = Viessmann for solid fueled boilers.  I also looked over the HMX and she talked me out of it.  She did use as much fact as she used terms like "trust me Viessman is not anything like HMX"  And,   "Viessmann is like Rolls, but in CZ I cannot sell many Rolls Royce"

Really quite funny in her accent.   I just took her at that.    I told her this particular model viessmann smacked of the EKO.  I will rexplore this more, then back check in.

I really did have my heart set on the 200.  Maybe I'll go back to it.



			
				Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I was shocked at the current exchange rate for Euros--yikes--something like .65 $ per E. Last time I was in Europe, they were at par, and I thought that sucked.
> 
> You're amazing, Burn-1. Good to see the Germans are as nuts as us when it comes to obsessing on their wood heat.
> 
> I like the refrigerator styling on the 200 and the HMX. Have a Becks while I'm waiting for the boiler to get up to temp and maybe chat up Jimbo's girlfriend while I'm there, just to make the trip to the boiler room complete.



Hehe,  I will leave Jimbo's girl out of this, but I have money is RMB or chinese currency for exactly the reason that I would be paying 1.5X normal for european costs.  Most analysts beleive the dollar with stay real low most of the year.  So by next heating season we could bridge the gap some, but I am not counting/ waiting on curex rates to change to make my moves.


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## Buck1200 (Feb 1, 2008)

So does this presume that you would have the ability to get an HMX (Vitolig 200) over here if you wanted?  Would your local Viessman office support the install?  

I don't know why I'm barking up this tree... can't afford it anyway.


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## wdc1160 (Feb 1, 2008)

Buck  I cannot confirm the hmx is the 200.  I was told otherwise.  However, I can get a viessman 150, which really reminds me of the EKO.  But I wanted the 200.

Viesmann in Indy halfway is supporting me.  They won't do an install(I didn't wantem to), but they say they can help with parts.  And, the guy in Indy has encouraged and helped.  It is why I followed the path to where I am now. 

I will write more soon on what viessmann in Indy told me.  I don't have the time as of yet.


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## Burn-1 (Feb 1, 2008)

ABGWD4U said:
			
		

> Buck  I cannot confirm the hmx is the 200.  I was told otherwise.  However, I can get a viessman 150, which really reminds me of the EKO.



Convergent evolution is always possible, and the HMX is a masterful copy if not a Viessmann. Corporations routinely spread out their products along a similar platform. Compare a Lincoln LS to the Jaguar S class of recent years or a Mercury Mariner/Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute, or Explorer/Mountaineer. It's the same basic product but the firms can sell to more customers and not dilute either brand too much. Viessmann merits the premium price, some are happy to get most of the technology with a different name.

That said there may be some control differences and the literature I looked at notes the basic HMX modulates from 11-40 kw whereas the Vitolig 200 goes from 13-40 kw so maybe a few other minor variations but you might inquire more when you get the chance.


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## wdc1160 (Feb 1, 2008)

Burn-1 said:
			
		

> ABGWD4U said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I don't disagree.  You can be sure that I will explore the finer details of what the CZ dealer thinks the difference is.


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## Burn-1 (Feb 1, 2008)

Hmmm... Our German friends suggest there are differences. It is pretty fun to read through some of these pages with the Google Translation Tools. 



> Apparently there are differences between Vitolig 200 and HMX.



I wonder what the shipping is like from Austrian Ebay? Prices shown suggest the Vitolig 200 at around $11K.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 1, 2008)

Alright, Burn-1--I'm making you the official liaison to our German friends on their website.

Wonder if they're lurking around here trying to translate us. Klaus? Dieter?


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## jklingel (Feb 1, 2008)

Eric Johnson" date=" said:
			
		

> Wonder if they're lurking around here trying to translate us.


Jah, richtig. Wir on studieren. Spater. Wolfgang.


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## Buck1200 (Feb 1, 2008)

This is far more interesting than work...


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## Buck1200 (Feb 1, 2008)

I mean... what governs the importation of a boiler?  We're not yet subject to specific emissions regulations for boilers, so I cannot imagine the EPA would have a say.  And I wonder if you got a couple of people to take delivery at the same time if you could get a pretty big break on the shipping...  Service would always be the biggest issue, I suppose.  

Just thinking out loud.  Now on to the "modulation" thread.


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## wdc1160 (Feb 1, 2008)

It would be the definition of irony if they came to a us site to look at a german boiler.

I am lumped in with a client on a shipping container they rent.  So I have low cost shipping, but I am not above stealing room on the shipping container for a hearth.com forum member.

$400 from CZ to Indiana doorstep.  How can you beat that??


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## Buck1200 (Feb 1, 2008)

Wow!  Can't beat that.

Were there any other hoops you had to jump through: Customs?  Duties?  Esoteric laws restricting the personal importation of wood burning equipment from eastern european countries?


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## jklingel (Feb 1, 2008)

$400 shipping is FREE. I wonder what Viessmann US would do if a person imported 20 of those things. How could they not help out w/ service?


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## wdc1160 (Feb 1, 2008)

So we are all on the same page.  In no way does viessmann know what I am doing.  2.  they won't officially support viessmann in the US at all.  They just game me a wink.  So I guess its unofficial, but I don't think importing is what they had in mind make reference to earlier parts of this post.


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## heaterman (Feb 2, 2008)

Boiler imports...........or the lack thereof.

The main impediments to all these lip licking, good looking boilers being available here are UL listing, ASME rating and the Euro's well placed fear of our tort laws here in the US. In addition, many of the manufacturers don't feel that there is enough demand for this type product here...........yet. Next fall when fuel oil is sitting at about $4/gallon and LP is $3+ they may hear enough noise over here to rethink their position.

If you're thinking of importing one of these you should be aware that standard current on European products is 220V 50 cycle as opposed to our standard of 110V 60 cycle. In other words, it's not going to be "plug and play" as the good Germans at the big V are fond of saying. Viessmann uses a special transformer on their Vitodens wall hung gas boiler to avoid having to completely redesign the whole control on that boiler


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## wdc1160 (Feb 2, 2008)

Heaterman you hit the nail on the head.  It was posted earlier, but the reason we don't see them floating over here is because of the listings and ratings Viess choose not to partake in.  

I don't know how I will approach the power issure.  It really depends what it does on the other side of the "power supply" actually inside the boiler.  
Usually I like to stay out of the OEM power supply and its constituent parts, but I have the electical equipment laying around to address the problem from the inside or outside.  Thanks for the heads up.  Now I just need the boiler.


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 2, 2008)

Ditto the nail on the head observation. And thanks for the simple explanation of modulation in the other thread. I think ABG mentioned some important qualifications to your simple analogy, but it will be the basis for my thought on the subject for now on. Thanks.

Bill, I'm not sure what you mean by "inside" the boiler. The only connection the electrical components (controller and blower) on the EKO have with the rest of the boiler is a heat sensor that sits on the top of the pressure vessel under the insulation. If the controller and blower are 230, 50 cycle then that's the only issue that needs to be addressed. That's assuming that the Vitolig 150 is simply a rebranded EKO 25 or something very similar.

And it's none of my business, but you can get an EKO 25 with free delivery for less than $5,000, and that comes with a 5-year warranty, 120v electronics and tech support just a phone call away. So I can only assume that you're getting a whale of a bargain on the Veissmann, or you like the challenge of being a pioneer. Hats off to you either way.


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## wdc1160 (Feb 2, 2008)

Eric



> Bill, I’m not sure what you mean by “inside” the boiler. The only connection the electrical components (controller and blower) on the EKO have with the rest of the boiler is a heat sensor that sits on the top of the pressure vessel under the insulation. If the controller and blower are 230, 50 cycle then that’s the only issue that needs to be addressed. That’s assuming that the Vitolig 150 is simply a rebranded EKO 25 or something very similar.



120 V @ 60 cycle and 220 @ 50 are both worthless to a boiler.  The AC is turned to DC as soon as it comes into the boiler.  Usually I would do a step up to 220 @ 50 by putting electronics in front of the boiler so it thinks its in Germany.   If that is too complicated or expensive I rip out the euro DC crap and put in USA conversion stuff.  It depends on what the innards of the boiler demand really.  Most I have seen have very modest requirments, so ripping out the euro stuff for later use else where can be more apealing than it sounds.



> And it’s none of my business, but you can get an EKO 25 with free delivery for less than $5,000, and that comes with a 5-year warranty, 120v electronics and tech support just a phone call away. So I can only assume that you’re getting a whale of a bargain on the Veissmann, or you like the challenge of being a pioneer. Hats off to you either way.



I want your feed back so I have officially made it your business.

I think it was a  couple things.  1 I think the vito 150 was a good deal at 4000 shipping included.  Which is exactly what Zenon quoted me on 1-15. for an EKO 25 ship also included.  I put a stop on the vito 150 because it doesn't modulate.  I had the dealer check to make sure.  And, I also confirmed.  


I actually think the modulation is the real difference.  If it is true modulation it could take some of the edge off of the requirements of hot thermal storage. 
The place where this being installed is in a city.  If you put a 4000 gal tank of hot water and "antibacterial agents" in a homemade bin you could attract the wrong kind of attention.  Keep in mind I still plan on doing it.

I have been led to believe that the tech support from the Viess is not long off and not something I should not worry about. (famous last words).  Keep in mind one of their major US distribution centers is very close by.  And, I have found they are knowlegable and excited about the products overseas.  They have me convinced they can help if trouble arises.

I am not dismissing the EKO line of products.  I have until next winter to actually put this at the new house.  Ironnically it will likely be the last thing I get.  I may end up with an EKO just because so many here are pleased with their performance.  Why go elsewhere.  

Until I get more info from the CZ dealer.  I really don't know.   I will keep you in the loop.


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## Bob Rohr (Feb 3, 2008)

Radio Shack has a 400 watt, 120V 60 cycle to 230V 50Hz inverters for around 80 bucks.  Nothing special about the Vitoden power pack, really.  Except the price tag 

 hr


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## Como (Feb 3, 2008)

Are you sure this is an issue, many electrics nowadays automatically come so that they can operate on US, UK and European voltages.


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## wdc1160 (Feb 3, 2008)

> Are you sure this is an issue, many electrics nowadays automatically come so that they can operate on US, UK and European voltages.



No I am not sure.  I am sure no one else here is either, but we are planning for the worst -- as wood burners its probably in our nature.




> Radio Shack has a 400 watt, 120V 60 cycle to 230V 50Hz inverters for around 80 bucks


converters are funny pieces of equipment.  I given so much thought to all the controllers, pumps, boiler, and all the little parts.   I have to look at the converter possibly as well.


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