# Vermont Castings "Defiant" vs Quadrafire "Isle Royale" vs Jotul "600 firelight"....



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 22, 2007)

Well, I have narrowed my search for a single wood burning stove to the threebrands and models mentioned above.

The wife put her foot down and is very "asthetic" oriented and asked me to "compromise" a little on performance for looks.  While this makes absolutely no functional sense, I can still get similar performance (I hope) with the models mentioned above and keep her happy as well.

The "runners up" were the Hearthstone "Mansfield" and the Quadrafire 5700.  The reasons they are not in the top three is that the wife cannot take the looks of the quad 5700 "doublewide" as she calls it and I am not sure if the Mansfield will keep up with the volume of air space I have to heat due to its lower emited temperatures radiated through the soapstone. The Mansfield also clashes with the decor of the home even though its a beautiful stove.

Once again, I am concerned with the Vermont Castings quality and don't want a "throw-away" stove.

The Isle Royal by Quadrafire seems to have good reviews other than shorter burn times.

The Jotul 600 firelight seems to have very poor reviews (on the cat version), but I am only interested in non cat as I will be burning primarily pine.

Can anyone give me some insight on any of these models?; your experiences would be much appreciated.

NOTE: We have a 25 foot (not 28 as previously mentioned) open vaulted ceiling in the great room..   2100sf downstairs, 1500 in a VERY, VERY open loft upstairs with three ceiling fans for winter air circulation.  We will be burning primarily pine at an elev of 7600 ft.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 22, 2007)

I think it is time for the buggaboo about VC stove quality to die a natural death. They had some issues in prior years but seem to have addressed them based on what I have seen in a couple of years on the Forum. The whole things seems like saying "Man, I would never buy a Ford. They made that Edsel thing." If my wife didn't love our new Englander Double-Wide (a born wood burner's wife that gal) so much I would consider a Defiant in a heart beat. Quality every bit as good as Jotul if not better.

As to the Quad if it won't burn hardwood very long, it ain't got no business heating that big barn in Flagstaff.

Boy I hope all those women keep teeing off on steel stoves. Helps keep the prices down in case I ever need another one. Or decide to replace these two cast iron pieces of crap.


----------



## babalu87 (May 22, 2007)

3500 sq feet is A LOT of space, what kind of insulation does the place have and where is it?  You are going to have very short burn times with pine, no way around that.
Did you look at a Morso 3610?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 23, 2007)

babalu87 said:
			
		

> 3500 sq feet is A LOT of space, what kind of insulation does the place have and where is it?  You are going to have very short burn times with pine, no way around that.
> Did you look at a Morso 3610?



Roof insulation is R-40 PLUS. The "plus" is the 12 inches in addition to the insulation which is comprised of 2 inches of T&G plus several inches of OSB, plywood etc.  The walls have no insulation other than 12-16 inch full logs chinked on both sides.

BrotherBart:

Please understand that I am NOT ripping Vermont Castings. I am only basing my judgements on individual replies in the review section of this forum!.  Of the 12 or so reviews, only 4-5 are positive, the rest are pretty brutal.

We looked at the Morso 3610, and again, like the Mansfield, a beautiful stove in its own right but too contempory for our "rustic" log home.

NOTE: An unhappy wife can be more difficult to please than even the most finicky stoves!


----------



## Corie (May 23, 2007)

Yeah Vermont Castings has an awful reputation here, but when you think of the huge number of stoves they sell and the very small portion of the market the reviews on this site represent, its easy to see that in reality they do pretty well.  I honestly wouldn't think twice about buying one of the high dollar cast iron Vermont Castings stoves (although mine would be catalytic).  If that's what the wife likes and you also like it, I'd say find a VERY REPUTABLE dealer, just in case, and pick up the vermont castings stove of your choice.  I highly doubt you'll be disappointed.


----------



## webbie (May 23, 2007)

Both the Defiant and the Jotul non-cat Firelight are relatively new models - it would be nice if some users here could describe their experiences. We have some dealers that have sold both.. maybe they will chime in.

One place when Jotul usually beats VC is in the amount of future service - certain VC models needed many hundreds of dollars of replacement parts in a relatively short period....but some of this was particular models - cats, for instance...

I would buy and burn a VC, but my experience with both brands as a dealer is that we had fewer problem (over a decade or more) with Jotul. That does not mean we had a lot of VC problems, we didn't! But we had almost no Jotul problems.


----------



## elkimmeg (May 23, 2007)

Some have ask why I waited so long to make the VC recomendation.. The longest burn time  you will get with your pine soft wood would be a cat stove.

Who miss informed about Cat combustor stoves I bet it was not a seasoned burner that know how to opperate one. Yeah I used to believe that BS till I ended up owning one.
 It worked so well I went out and got a second one fo for my main stove. What it has delivered is long clean burns. Remember these stoves are als thermatically controled. Its about as close to set and forget as it gets.  As for the ratings the ci urrent VC Defiant  model has only run form 2002.  I found very few that were not satisfied with the current modelsAs Corie said a few have rated the manufacture's stove negatively from that some are plain user errors. What the rationgs do not project is the millions of satisfied customers that have not found this site and written a review they are just satisfied and enjoying the heat. The Defiant is one serious heater over 3 cu ft fire box m,and the cleanest ever tested by the EPA 

Got love the ashless dustless disposal system put the lid on and walk it out of the home no dust no fuss a real wife pleaser. Then there are the bread warming racks and  wet mitten racks to dry them out.  Then the romantic door open fire screen option where you can enjoy the open fire sipping wine with the wife watching the dancing flames.  Finally the patriotic pitch, the only Cast iron stove still made and cast in USA with American workers..

 Wait I save the best feature for last smokless top loading. For 35 years my wife took no interest in stove opperation. Enter smokless top loading My wife took over stove opperations including knowing how to engage the cat.. My wid fe also likes the look with the bread  shelves and actually raises bread on them. Some times she will simmer  stew or sauces.

Will it heat your vast area  to a degree even if it causes your  heating system to take a longer cycle times you are still using less fosil fuel. Another thing VC does it try to reflect a BTU output to reflect a realistic  production over a long period of time They would rather you achieve 600 griddle top heat 10 hours than  a flash of higher heat 4 hours. VC told me they have tested them in their lab to b produce 125,000 BTUS but that a one time systems full bore . And not reflective to real world expectations..

 If you are truely interested I have posted a video of the plant tour. Want to see the people making your stove. Want to fully understand the process then you can decide  ,their dedication to quality control


----------



## titan (May 23, 2007)

Mr s-h, I understand the task of keeping the wife happy with an aesthetically-pleasing stove,but if I was serious about heating a log home of your size, I'd find a way to like the looks of a Blaze-King 1107 Classic.A claimed 90,000 Btu's and up to 40 hrs. burn time?Sounds like a suitable solution to your dilemma; that stove could hold 90 lbs. of pine!If my wife just wouldn't bend in the stove decision.....I'd just tell her she looked fat in the wool socks and sweaters she had to wear around the big house with the undersized stove. :bug:


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 23, 2007)

Elk:

That was a great reply. Are you saying to get the cat Defiant over the non cat?.  I also agree that people who need to "vent" may be more inclined to do so in a bad review as opposed the the ones that are totaly satisfied. You know, how many times have you heard that the plane landed....safely?!.

I must say that I do like the looks of the VC Defiant the best over the others.

Titan:

The very first stove we looked at was the Blazeking.  At first, I was not interested in it as it looked so plain. Then I checked out the specs.....and they were sick!

I wish I could wave my magic wand and get the performance of a Blazeking in the looks of the Defiant!.


----------



## begreen (May 23, 2007)

I think you should PM MSG re: the Isle Royale. There are too many happy campers in the CO hills to accept that this is not a good burner for softwoods. Your neighbors are a small sampling. Which of them are getting good, long burn times and in what stove(s)? 

Though in this case you have already decided to go for form over function, so what does it matter?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 23, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Though in this case you have already decided to go for form over function, so what does it matter?




BeGreen, why do you say this?. Do you think that the VC Defiant is more a "poser" than a real dependable workhorse?.

I know it has fluffy accessories like "mitten racks" and shelf warmers along with a nice ash pan with lid and handle, but I'm not looking to weld a couple of oil drums together either in terms of appearance.

My wife really likes the looks of the  Vermont Castings stove and from a pure "power" stand point, the stove has some really impressive features like 3.2 cf fire box, longer burn times than some and extremely low emissions (which means it burns cleaner, a plus when burning crappy pine!)

If you suggest a better "compromise" stove...i.e meets both form AND function, I'm very interested.


----------



## begreen (May 23, 2007)

The general recommendation as the best compromise given the wood source has been for a soapstone stove. This has been dismissed due to aesthetics, even though they are among the most traditional look for a "rustic" cabin. The VC stove seems to be out due to concerns about quality, but maybe it will qualify because it looks good. The PE Summit hasn't been discussed, in spite of being strongly recommended, so I am gathering that the look of things is much more important than ideal function. This discussion doesn't seem to get any traction because it started out asking what is the very best and is ending up with a discussion of "looks". This is what governed the decision to have a central fireplace that will as noted suck the heat out of the house and seems to continue to be the rule of the roost.

If it were me, I would be deciding between the Hearthstone first and the Isle Royale or PE Summit second.  I'd like to try a Defiant cat, and as a new stove, I think it would be an admirable performer. But I wouldn't recommend one to a first time woodburner for the reason that it takes a bit of learning. This is not an electric stove one just turns on and gets heat out of. To get a nice long burn with good heat requires a bit of observation and timing on the part of the person running the stove. If not, a cat can be a bad experience due to no fault of the stove. And if the stove is developing quality issues, will a new stove user know it? Thus I recommended the Hearthstone and the Summit as simple to operate, with predictable long burns and good long usable heat. The Isle Royale has a good track record burning spruce, pine or alder, but it is a slightly more complex stove with a few more options for air control. In the hands of an experienced wood burner, this is desirable, but perhaps not to a novice. Misuse of the controls like the startup air control can lead to overfiring, excess wood consumption, owner unhappiness. That again is not the stove's fault, but it happens.

Sorry, I'm in a cynical mood tonight. So I'll just stop posting now.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 23, 2007)

BeGreen:

I can't agree or disagree with your recomendation of the Hearthstone first as your recommendation as the best stove for my circumstances.  I simply do not have any woodburning experience so I can only go by mfg's brochures and advice from others, comparing specs and reading reviews.

From a newbie's point of view, this is al VERY confusing and I really want to make an educated descision the first time; especially since it will cost me around $4-$5k initially.

The reviews on your #1 choice (Hearthstone) have, for the most part, been very positive (throwing out the high and low score of course!).  I do realize that this stove really should address "form" before "function", but to be totally honest, I really don't see any huge advantage of the soapstone stoves over anything else other than they remain warmer after the fires dies down or goes out completely.

Due to the fact that it gets very cold and windy almost year round here (remember, I'm at almost 8k feet!), We will probably keep the stove burning at some level 24/7; at least in spring, fall and winter.

I am concerned that even Hearthstones current largest stove "the Mansfield", will not be able to produce the amount of heat needed to meet our demands.  I am basing this statement from their much lower heating temperatures (radiated into the room) as well as a concern as too how much heat is simply going up the chimenea.

I can only ASS-ume that the Defiant would meet more of our "form" requirements than even the Hearthstone can based on a larger firebox (3.2cf vs .30cf), higher BTU outputs, higher square footage ratings, along with better creature comforts...(read the reviews of the Hearstones ash pans!!).

All I am saying is that "comparitively speaking", or "on paper", it seems that there are several stoves that will outperform the Hearstone stoves quite easily.


As I've said before, "I'm all ears!".  If you or others recomend a specific stove (which you did), I will certainly check them out and compare them.   I can't help my wifes tastes but I also don't see anything wrong in purchasing a reliable heat source that also looks good.

As you have suggested, I did look closely at the Hearthstone stoves but did not find them to be equal or better in any category as compared to the other stoves mentioned other than  they radiate heat longer when fire dies down or goes out.

Remember, I am as green as they come so if you think I am missing something here, please let me know what it is.  I really appreciate all of your input.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 23, 2007)

BeGreen:

Looking over the previous replies, I realized that I had totally missed a very possible candidate; that being the "pacific energy" stoves.  We do not have any Pacific energy dealer here in the state and I did'nt realize what "PE" stood for.....my fault.

From your suggestion and looking at their website, it seems that there "Summit" series or the new Altadera..sp? could definitely work (as in do the heating job, as well as pass the wifes approval).

I'm still not sure why so many recommend the soapstones stoves, but on paper, the Pacific Energy stove @ 93kBTU's rated at 3k square feet sure seems to justify some looking into.

I have not purchased anything yet and will continue to look for more useful info from this site as my guide.


----------



## titan (May 23, 2007)

Definetly check out the PE Alderlea.In its largest form, it is a summit firebox wrapped in attractive cast-iron surround panels;thus giving you convective heat which should heat your large open space more easily than a radiant-only stove.


----------



## elkimmeg (May 23, 2007)

Here is a few post concerning the defiant.  All complaints posted here  did not include the defiant as a problem stove but a rock soild contributor.

Personally iif my location would setup for the cat defiant I would have one. Then again my rear exit setup limits all top exiting stoves.

You heard right My two stoves are Cat combustor stoves thay are so easy to opperate  set and forget I feel like the old Maytag repairman

Don't let me concvince you read these threads and watch the video of the plant tour goose and I did.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/5145


https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/5224/



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3397773981046662187


----------



## begreen (May 23, 2007)

Thank you for your interest in Pacific Energy Fireplace Products.

Below are the results of your search for Pacific Energy fireplace dealers in Holbrook, Arizona:

Burrs Stove Shop
200 2nd Street
Holbrook, Arizona
USA 86025
phone: 602-524-1644

------ also -----

Mountain West Sales Inc.
2718 University Boulevard NE
Albuquerque, New Mexico
USA 87107
phone: 505-888-4464

Cedar Builders Supply
309 N 200 W
Cedar City, Utah
USA 84720
phone: 435-586-9424

For more real world Hearthstone info search on Hearthstone posts by MountainStoveGuy. He's expecting a new addition to the family any moment, so this will have to do in absentia:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/2859/
and HS vs VC discussion:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/2612/


----------



## ChrisN (May 23, 2007)

Hey Super-Hunk.  I have a similar home set-up as you describe yours, The stove (Jotul Oslo) is located on the first floor in a great room w/ a cathedral ceiling that is open to the upstairs loft with 3 bedrooms off a short hallway from the loft.  My house is about 1000sf small than yours, and the stove does a great job of heating the upstairs and the main area of the downstairs.  the outer rooms of the first floor don't get a whole lot of heat from the stove.  One thing for you to consider is the volume of wood you will be burning each season.  My intermediate sized Oslo burns 24/7 from mid Nov through early April and I go through 7 or 8 cords.  It's a lot of work keeping up the wood supply unless you are buying it.  Dedicated wood burning to heat your home requires a substantial investment in time and effort.  Make sure you go into this with your eyes wide open!


----------



## wg_bent (May 23, 2007)

Let me pose another way to look at this.

If your burning 24/7, the heat life of a stove really doesn't matter especially when your looking at stoves that can handle an entire 200 year old oak in a single burn.   A 3.2 cuft firebox is very large.  You will not have trouble achieving overnite burns, so heat life is not all that interesting.  If you had a 2.0 cuft firebox or smaller like in the Hearthstone Tribute, then the soapstove will really work for you.  

Another thing to think about.  If your using the stove to take the chill off, a soapstone stove might be a pain since they take a while to heat up, and a couple people have indicated problems getting them going when stone cold (pardon the punn) (but I think they have a basic draft problem, not a stove problem)  On the otherhand, once a soapstone stove is up to temp, I understand a relight is super easy.  

In reading all the posts thus far, and from hanging around here for the better part of a year or more, I'd say the Defiant Cat would be your stove.  I have a friend with one and it heats his house.  Granted this guy has like r100 walls, so on warm days light bulbs heat the place, but the stove is in his basement and it works well.  

The other observation around here is that people are very loyal to their stove companies.  Elk has two VC Cat stoves and loves them, Rhonemas has a Hearthstone and loves it.  I'm the local Osburn evangelist along with McGriz, and so on.  Most people seem basically happy with their stoves unless they get a problematic one or have draft issues.  

Vermont Castings sells something like 10x the stoves others do, so their bound to get more unhappy customers than say Woodstock.  (although I have yet to hear about even 1 unhappy woodstock customer, so that might tell you something)  but you get the point.  

If you like the way the stove looks, and you purchase a large enough stove, and you have resonable expectations for it, you will likely be happy.  

Looks... well, all the stoves you originally posted about look similar (did you check out the biggest Morso?) so on looks, well, it's your choice.  On heating ability, I'd bet those all will do the job, just purchase a stove that's somewhat bigger than you think you'll need.  You can always burn just a single log at a time or open a window, but you can't make your stove any bigger.

Possibly my biggest mistake was not thinking big enough.  If I had to do it all over again knowing then what I know now, I probably would have completely replaced the 0-clearance Majestic my insert sits in, and replaced it with something like a Quad 5700 fireplace or turned the fireplace into an alcove and installed a very large stove like what your looking at.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 23, 2007)

Begreen, titan, elk warren Chris..... others too!

You guys are great. I really appreciate all the good advice you are giving me and don't hesitate to set me straight if you see my thinking going off couse!.

Please just understand that to a total novice, making the right choice can be a bit overwhelming.

I am starting to see a sort of "Ford vs Chevy" loyalty between various brands, and even designs (i.e cat vs non-cat).

There may be no simple answer......actually, scratch that, there is no simple answer to my situation since I am throwing so many wrenches into the equasion!.

I am not used to a forum that does not use html codes to post pics and lets just say that I am a "natural" blonde...(really)!. so it may take a bit to figure out how to post up some pics but I will take some pics of the log home (inside and out) so you all can see exactly what I am working with.

I really appreciate Begreens "tactful" way of telling me that you MUST choose function first, then form.  Even though I do get that, I still would like to find a good looking stove that actually is a real workhorse, if thats even possible.

As soon as I get some pics uploaded (hopefully later today), I will post 'em up.

BTW, don't be afraid to just "say it" if you think I am screwing up.  I will even post a direct quote for anyone to use by just copying and pasting should you think my vision is getting a bit blurred.

Here it is:

"Listen to what we are saying you dopey blonde idiot, WE are the ones with the experience, not you!"

Again, don't be afraid to use that quote on me if you really think it applies!!

To be con't.


----------



## begreen (May 23, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> I am not used to a forum that does not use html codes to post pics and lets just say that I am a "natural" blonde...(really)!. so it may take a bit to figure out how to post up some pics but I will take some pics of the log home (inside and out) so you all can see exactly what I am working with.
> 
> I really appreciate Begreens "tactful" way of telling me that you MUST choose function first, then form.  Even though I do get that, I still would like to find a good looking stove that actually is a real workhorse, if thats even possible.
> 
> As soon as I get some pics uploaded (hopefully later today), I will post 'em up.



If you want to post a picture, first downsize it so that is about 800 x 600 pixels or less. Then, use the "Post Reply" button, not the "Fast Reply" button. At the bottom of the reply screen you will see a section for attachments. Click on the "Browse" button to link to the picture file on your computer. The click on "Preview Post" button if you have another picture to post, and if not, click on the "Submit Post" button.


----------



## begreen (May 23, 2007)

I'm staying stove agnostic, even though I like Jotuls and think it would work well for you. My strong recommendation is to keep it simple. The F600 fits that criteria, but the VC or Hearthstone will possibly give you longer usable heat. 

You have a lot to learn about burning wood. Warren is right, heating 24/7 is work. At times it can grow old, especially if you can't be home all the time or have a job. How many nights are you willing to get up at 5am to stoke the stove? It will happen. At least if a soapstone stove's fire dies down at 5am, it will continue to heat until maybe 7am. That can be a blessing.  How about having to dig down through 6 feet of snow to get at the wood? Can happen, ask MSG. You're going to learn a whole lot the first year about wood burning. Once the newness wears off, you may very well get tired of it. So keep it simple and accept that if you really like burning wood 24/7 you may be changing the stove in 5 years. That's really not the end of the world. 

As far as the new stove goes, be sure it is placed centrally. Keep the flue in the interior of the house until it exits through the roof. If possible, build the hearth deeper and wider than required so that you can accommodate a variety of stoves should you desire a change. Pay attention to clearance requirements from combustibles. Locate a good installer. 

PS: What is your primary source of heat besides the woodstove? Make sure that is sized correctly for the house. You will get sick or need to travel at some point and will need to have the peace of mind to know that system can handle the house with a margin of comfort.


----------



## elkimmeg (May 24, 2007)

Buster thanks and good luck with your stove. It is time for me to move on.. This maybe my last post. I'm glad I have helped a few while I was here.

 I guess 5 years is enough


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 24, 2007)

Okay, I think I may have finally have goten a pic of the inside of our log home resized to stick!.

As I mentioned, this is an EXTREMELY open floorplan. I'm not really sure how to figure the livable sq footage because they count only the actual floorspace.  If the upstairs loft was all filled in with "livable" sq footage, as opposed to open air space, the sq foot amount would be even higher than it is.

I know I have a LOT of space or "volume" of air to heat which is why I don't want to make a poor choice of stove.  The open three sided penninsula fireplace in the picture (not rocked yet) will be a feature in the home, but unfortunately worthless for heat.

I know your thinking "why not convert the large free standing fireplace into an actual heating unit"... That makes TOTAL sense!!.. I know, but my wife REALLY wants this "decorative" feature in the house and wants all three sides exposed.

I plan on putting a large wood stove just in front of the vertical log post supporting the second floor. (in front of kitchen).  As you can see from the pic, its a straight shot to the roof with no obstructions.  There are also three ceiling fans ready to blow heated air back down.

SO, back to the original question, do you guys think I will be able to heat this area with a wood stove?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 24, 2007)

BTW, Elk, why are you leaving?. You seem to have made a big influence on others and I certainly appreciated all of your suggestions.


----------



## wg_bent (May 24, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> Okay, I think I may have finally have goten a pic of the inside of our log home resized to stick!.
> 
> As I mentioned, this is an EXTREMELY open floorplan. I'm not really sure how to figure the livable sq footage because they count only the actual floorspace.  If the upstairs loft was all filled in with "livable" sq footage, as opposed to open air space, the sq foot amount would be even higher than it is.
> 
> ...



That is possibly the best house to heat with a stove I've seen around here.  Get a big one though!!  A nice big Defiant would look real nice there.  Go for it.  Oh, and stop over thinking it.  Just pick a stove and install it.  At some point you'll figure out that it is a ford vs chevy, or maybe a ford vs a Volvo.  A big Englander would do great, it's just not as pretty as the VC.  Or maybe it's a Chevy vs a Jag.  A big Englander would do great, it's just not as elegant as a Woodstock.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 24, 2007)

That house is the cure for "I don't want to heat myself out of the room.". Won't happen with whatever you buy. That place cries out for a big Quad steel stove, a PE Summit/Alderlea or the Englander 30-NC. We can tell ya what heats well. Deciding what you like to look at in a stove as "furniture" is 100% a personal decision that nobody can advise you on.

But as we say at the poker table "Think long. Think wrong.".

And as to wood consumption, you are going to burn a bunch of pine no matter what stove you buy. You are going to burn a bunch of anything you use to heat that space. Be it electicity, gas wood, old tires or whatever.


----------



## Highbeam (May 24, 2007)

I've been in a few log homes that size that were only heated with a wood stove. They were vacation homes and we did drain the water lines when we left but it was set up for that so no big deal. When you go there they were cold and the big stove, the biggest country stove in this case, took so many hours per 10 degrees but it was certainly possible to heat the place. Now to be fair I will admit that it was cold until it warmed up but once the logs were warm and the air was warm we were able to turn the stove down to a more moderate burn. 

A single large woodstove can easily heat that space. It will be work to keep the fire going but that is the same for anyone burning as primary heat. 

Go big here on the stove. I use a 3+ CF firebox LOPI and evergreen firewood and would not want a smaller stove at all if trying for overnight burns on our less dense forest wood. You will need all the room you can get to fit in loads of wood. This will not only allow overnight burns but also less frequent fills during the day.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 24, 2007)

One thing I forgot to mention, when you look at this picture, you are only seeing about 1/3 of the inside area (due to the room configuration and where I was standing to take the pic).

I will attempt to post another pic of the outside to give you all a better perspective of the volume of room to heat.

from the replies I have been given, I now have a new list of contenders; they are as follows:

.Hearthstone Mansfield (or mega sized new "equinox")
.PE Summit Clasic or altadera..sp?
.Englander 30
.VC DEfiant cat or non-cat.

The quad 5700 and Blazeking 1107 would also work but wife is not keen on the steel stove looks (even though their specs are incredible)...chick thing.

Anyway, from the list above, did I miss any of the "Big-boys" or is that pretty much all of them in terms of free standing stoves?


----------



## BrotherBart (May 24, 2007)

If she doesn't like the looks of a steel Quad then she won't like the 30-NC either. There seems to be only one woman in exsistence that loves the look of the 30 and she is taken.

Edit: Gotta make that two. Her sister was here last month and really likes it too.


----------



## Todd (May 24, 2007)

What a gorgeous place you have there. I think that Defiant will look and work great in there.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 24, 2007)

Hey Bart:

I showed my wife a pic of the Pacific Energy "Summit Classic" and she actually liked the simple looks and lines of it!

So now I may be down to three choices:

.Mansfield
.PE Summit classic
.VC Defiant

Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but the way I see it, the best performing stoves (or at least the ones with the least maintenance) are the ones with the fewest openings.  What I mean is that some stoves only have a front opening, while other may have several (front, side, or top load).  On stoves that have multiple openings, there may be more chance of unsealed air leaks.  For this reason, I am wondering if the Mansfield or the PE Summit would be a better choice than the Defiant as they both only have one single big door as oposed to the defiants 2 front doors as well as a top load openeing?

I know that BeGreen really likes the Mansfield, I wonder if the PE Summit will work just as well?

Again, thanks for all the replies.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 24, 2007)

I have never owned a top loader because of having my stoves half-in and half-out of the fireplace. But if I had the option I would take a top loader in a heart beat. It has to be wonderful to just lift the lid and drop the wood in. As to leaks, the weight of the lid will hold a seal just fine. You shouldn't have to change the door gasket on a top loader as often so the top gasket is a wash maintenance wise. Only costs twenty bucks and fifteen minutes work anyway.

As to the Summit. It is a hoss. Go directly to your PE dealer. Do not pass GO. Then take out a second mortgage for all of the pipe you are going to need up to the roof of that place.


----------



## begreen (May 24, 2007)

Agreed and decided. You'll do well with the PE Summit. Simple, flexible and a damn fine stove. For more info on installation, colors, etc. look on: http://www.chimneysweeponline.com


----------



## titan (May 24, 2007)

I'm a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principle........ keep it simple Super-hunky!Any stove with only one opening=one gasket=less to go wrong=less maintenance.P.E. makes simple,efficient stoves designed to be heaters;not furniture.Glad to hear the Mrs. likes the Summit, that stove would likely work well in your application.BTW-did she look at the large Alderlea?What did she think?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 24, 2007)

BeGreen:

You are just a wealth of information, I feel like I owe you commission or something.  That little "click a feature" on that chiney sweep web site is really cool. It lets you see the stove in gold trim, black mat, nickel etc.  I personally like the brushed nicket trim.

Titan:

Both my wife and I looked at the new T-6 Aleradera...sp?. It is exactly the same unit as the Summit and Summit classic with a cast iron facade skin around it.

To be brutaly honest, it looks like its trying to be something its not; that being a real-authentic old fashioned cast iron stove.

Since Bart mentioned that the top loading feature is really not a leak issue, (which I can understand due to the weight of the lid placed on it via gravity), I wonder if the double front doors are more leak prone as opposed to the single door on the Mansfield and the PE Summit classic?.

I am getting VERY close to making a final descision between the big Hearthstone, the Defiant and the PE Summit classic.  At this point, it may boil down to brand reputation, and quality of dealer.  (Although there is no PE dealer nearby, but at least there is one in the state)...*Thanks BeGreen for that tip!*

If there is anything else you think I should consider among these units, please let me know, and once again.... a big thanks!


----------



## titan (May 24, 2007)

Mr S-H, I considered the Defiant when shopping for my last stove;I did and still do find it to be one of the sharpest- looking heaters available.Having said that,I walked away from it after careful inspection of those double doors and the unimpressive fitinish of all that gasketing.All I saw was huge potential for air leakage and high maintenance where a proper seal is imperative.Perhaps that particular unit just needed some tweaking and I was sweating the small stuff,but I'm bent on making my life easier and less worrisome.....that's why I heat with wood.That's my .02,hopefully someone with a newer Defiant will ring in and relate their experience.Oh-FWIW...I used to heat with an XL Dutchwest catylytic stove; It worked pretty well but did teach me a good lesson:The best stove of all is the one that other family members aren't afraid to make use of.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 24, 2007)

titan:

I know what you mean by buying a simple- lower maint stove.  A heating stove seems to be a very pressure (air leak) sensative appliance.  The more leaks, the worse it will perform as a result and may possibly overfire....a lot!.

Even though I am a total novice, I have read and understand that with my super high ceilings, I may run the risk of overdrafting (is that a word?) to begin with.  If I combine super-drafting along with a air leaky stove, I may end up with a smelter!!, and I'm not looking to having a raging overheating fire all the time, especially since I will be burning a very hot burning-dry wood (pine) to begin with.

BTW, I hope what I am saying actually makes sense because I am just repeating the stuff I have read; I have no real experience yet.

Anyway, should what I said is true, that being:

.high ceilings = overdrafting potential
.multiple stove openings = more air leak potential
.Pine burns very hot and quickly

I may want to reduce my options to two; the big Mansfield or the PE Summit classic.

So now I need to find out if the  PE Summit is able to burn long enough to make it through the night. My sleep is VERY important as the chemotherapy I am currently on causes me to be wiped out at times and I really need my sleep.

BTW Titan, your a pretty good lookin' fella!


----------



## Highbeam (May 24, 2007)

"I may want to reduce my options to two; the big Mansfield or the PE Summit classic."

I vote summit classic based on aesthtics. The legs on that Mansfield are goofy looking. Totally based on taste. I won a Hearthstone heritage though so I am sold on the soapstone concept. These are two great stoves you have chosen. Very loyal followings.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 24, 2007)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I won a Hearthstone heritage though so I am sold on the soapstone concept. These are two great stoves you have chosen. Very loyal followings.



You "won" that kit stove?


----------



## thechimneysweep (May 24, 2007)

Mr Super Hunky, I normally avoid using the forum as a sales floor, but I've got to speak up here.  Your house is made for a Summit, Summit Classic or Alderlea T6 (same firebox).  The Summit's 3 cubic foot firebox, coupled with PE's patented Extended Burn Technology, will easily hold a fire for 8-10 hours, even burning pine (we burn mostly fir and alder).  Plus, the Summit's 97,000 btu peak output will come in handy with all the cubic area you've got to heat.  If you don't have a local dealer, we'll be happy to ship one to you: just return to our website and click the ORDER OR INQUIRE button and fill out our inquiry form, and we'll respond with delivered pricing.


----------



## titan (May 25, 2007)

Thanks for the kind words Mr.S-H......but that picture may be misleading...I was wearing my small glasses and I couldn't smile 'cause it was the wife's day to wear the teeth.To get back on topic, P.E. boasts long burn times in their Summit due to their "extended burn technology".You'll find breakdowns on it in old threads both here and @ thechimneysweeponline.No personal experience with it but some regulars here do own 'em and what I've heard sounded encouraging.P.E.'s warranty rates with the best of 'em too.Good luck and let us know what you purchased with pics.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 25, 2007)

I really like the concept of the soapstone stoves; however, both myself and Mrs Hunky would rather look at "the Phoenix" Hearthstone stove as opposed to the legs of the Mansfield.

The "Duckfeet" as another member referred too them on the Mansfield can take a little getting used to!.  I personally think the best looking Hearthstone stove is the "Phoenix".

That said, I can't help but think that Begreen really want me to buy the Mansfield and can back up his reasoning.  If he says the PE Summit will burn as long as the Mansfield and be able to heat the entire house (which at 97,000 BTU's, I would think so), I will feel much better.

I'm sorry for being such an anal shopper and stove comparer, but everyone on this forum has been super helpful and hopefully these posts and replies may help out some other "lurkers".

Oh, one more thing, "The chimney sweep guy", you really have a super nice website. It was very helpful in determining options, colors, and specs on the Pacific Energy stoves. You have one, if not THE nicest wood stove websites I have seen.


----------



## begreen (May 25, 2007)

Titan said:
			
		

> I was wearing my small glasses and I couldn't smile 'cause it was the wife's day to wear the teeth.



 :lol:  :lol:  :lol: Now that's frugal!


----------



## begreen (May 25, 2007)

SupaHunkee, I don't want to push you into buying any particular stove. My recommendation is based on trying to read between the lines. I don't like the Mansfield feet either, and aesthetically I agree with your opinion. But you have a big barn to heat and need brute force. Personally, I would have gone with a proper masonry heater, especially from your criteria. But that's out now so the big Mansfield is the next best thing. Next choice would be the PE Summit. It is an excellent choice given the prior considerations and one I too am considering, dressed up in the Alderlea irons. 

Now as for advice, I don't take of ask for compensation. But if a case of  Andrew Will  2001 Red Mountain Ciel du Cheval Vineyard should show up on my doorstep, well.....


----------



## restorer (May 25, 2007)

All I hope is you hate red, I mean real red, I mean stove red that no one else makes, I mean I hope you hate, PE Whore House Red, because we can't take another.... not one..... not even a copy.... not......no.....


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 25, 2007)

Hey Uncle rich, stove fumes getting a bit much or what???.  BTW, if we do get the PE summit  Classic, it will be the black one w/ nickel legs and trim.


----------



## restorer (May 25, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> Hey Uncle rich, stove fumes getting a bit much or what???.  BTW, if we do get the PE summit  Classic, it will be the black one w/ nickel legs and trim.



The nightmares were just starting to go away. It's a forum thing. Kind of like the Red Plague. I don't expect you to understand, but a forum search, on an empty stomach, with a few cold ones along side, and the ability to turn it off, when the going gets bad......

There are wraths on this forum that can melt enamel. Watch for them. If you are going black, you're going with peace. 

Stick with the hearth and you will look back at this punning and jesting with fond memories. It really is meant to jerk others chains, but.... come to think about it I haven't burned in a few weeks, maybe I'm going through withdrawal, ya' think?


----------



## titan (May 25, 2007)

Love the new avatar Unclerich,what were the names of those two sarcastic old Muppets?Mr. S-H, my Regency is dressed in black cw nickel trim.....that's a sweet-looking combo,but it sure ain't whorehouse red.Maybe I'll paint it with a roller this summer. :cheese:


----------



## wg_bent (May 25, 2007)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> All I hope is you hate red, I mean real red, I mean stove red that no one else makes, I mean I hope you hate, PE Whore House Red, because we can't take another.... not one..... not even a copy.... not......no.....



Where is he these days anyway? I haven't seen any of the PE evangelist around lately.


----------



## Gunner (May 25, 2007)

> BTW, if we do get the PE summit Classic, it will be the black one w/ nickel legs and trim.



Good choice


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 25, 2007)

Whorehouse red?????..

Am I missing something here?, or should I just keep my nose out of this and don't ask??.


----------



## restorer (May 25, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> Whorehouse red?????..
> 
> Am I missing something here?, or should I just keep my nose out of this and don't ask??.



Probably better not to ask. If you do, you won't get a straight answer. Roos not been around for a month, but his ears are probably burning now. Sorry I mentioned it, I was really just getting over it.

BTW the Muppet is Mr.Waldorf, yes, named after the hotel. My evil doppelganger.


----------



## Gooserider (May 26, 2007)

Another possible to throw in the mix is the new super-size stove that Hearthstone is supposed to be coming out with soon - even bigger than the Mansfield.  Giant firebox for stuffing with pine, soapstone for the radiant heating, etc.  The only real downside is that it's a brand new stove, so you run the "early adopter" risk of being a beta-tester...  However I don't think they will be offering it in Whorehouse Red  %-P 

Gooserider


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 26, 2007)

Goose:

I visited the local Hearthstone dealer yesterday and they gave ne a few hints on the new "Equinox" Wood stove.  It will put out around 100k-120k BTU's, weigh around 800 lbs and be the size of a smaller refridgerator!.  I just don't really see a market for such a monster; they did'nt either.

Anyway, while I can't dispute that the Mansfield is the all around best choice for us performance wise, my wife thinks it looks like something out of a Liberace museum and just a bit too ornate for us. If the soapstone was offered in other colors but grey and did'nt have the webed duck feet, I would still probably buy it but she put her foot down!.

That leaves two options left that both her and I will accept based on performance and appearance.

.PE Summit Classic
.VC Defiant  (not sure if cat or no-cat model).

I like the looks of the Defiant better, but the warranty and heat output on the PE stove is better; although the performance of the Defiant should meet our needs.

Maybe I'll just flip a (two headed) coin!!


----------



## Gooserider (May 26, 2007)

Well they have trouble getting the soapstone from the supplier (earth) in any color but grey...   However you'd thnk they could come up with an alternative, less ornate design for the legs.  Probably still have to have some fancyness  to match the body, but do something to loose the duck feet...

Gooserider


----------



## stoveguy13 (May 26, 2007)

with issues Hearth stone has had over the last few years not sure i would buy that unit in its first season on the market they have been making stoves for 20 some odd years now and they still cant get the door handels right just the opion of a guy who sells them


----------



## scotty (May 27, 2007)

"That leaves two options left that both her and I will accept based on performance and appearance.
.PE Summit Classic
.VC Defiant  (not sure if cat or no-cat model).
I like the looks of the Defiant better, but the warranty and heat output on the PE stove is better; although the performance of the Defiant should meet our needs."

    Hunk,  I haven't posted recently, but we also live in a high mountain setting in a log cabin. The winter can be cold, and we have been heating totally with wood and mostly with pine and fir off of our land for many years. 
    I'm curious why the Quadrafire Isle Royale didn't make your final list? It seems to be adequate in size and appearance. The warmers are a nice option...
     There are almost too many good stoves out there, so I know it is difficult.  I think you are wise to require top loading. 
    Also, if the installation has to pass a building inspection you should look closely at each stove's requirements for pipe size & length, clearances, and floor protection. These things vary widely between different makes, and can easily change the final cost by thousands of $$. 
           Scotty


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 27, 2007)

Hi Scotty:

To answer your question re. the Quads "Isle Royal".  First of, both Mrs Hunky and I really like the looks of that stove; It's almost a VC Defiant "look-alike".  It would work very well in our application as far as looks go, however, I simply don't think it will produce enough heat for pur home.

In essence, we have nearly 4000sq feet or "volume." of air to heat.  The first floor footprint is 2100sf and if we had the entire upstairs usable with a second floor (as opposed to an open loft), that would equal another 2000+ sq foot livable!.  The only reason it is not all "livable" is because of the lack of floor in the open area's.

What I'm attempting to say is that I have around 4000 sq ft of "volume" of air to heat.  The "Isle Royal" is only rated up to 2,500 and thats calculated with 8-foot high ceilings!!.

Deep down, I know I should be putting in the Mansfield, but the wife said she will crank up the forced air gas heater before she would allow a Mansfield to come into the house!.  Of course, peoples personal tastes will vary, and she just cannot warm up (pun?) to the looks of the Mansfield.

Of the stoves that are capable of heating this large home, she will allow the following:

.PE Summit Classic
.PE new T-6 Alderlea..(spelling finally correct!)
.VC Defiant in either cat or non-cat.

BTW, just for fun, here is a list of the stoves we both really like, but unfortunately, are not large enough to meet our volume demands. They are as follows:

. Hearthstone "Phoenix"
. Quadrafire "Isle Royal"
. Lopi "Leyden"
. Jotul 600 firelight (this one may be large enough but wife did'nt like as much, I thought it looked good!)


----------



## stoveguy13 (May 27, 2007)

Hey Mr hunky sorry to burst a bubble but if you dont think the isle royale or the f600 can handle 4000sqf which they cant there is really no free standing stove or insert on the market that  can including the stoves you are looking at


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 28, 2007)

stoveguy13 said:
			
		

> Hey Mr hunky sorry to burst a bubble but if you dont think the isle royale or the f600 can handle 4000sqf which they cant there is really no free standing stove or insert on the market that  can including the stoves you are looking at



Stoveguy:

No bubble burst here, just using some basic math.

Both the Isle royal and the F600 are rated at heating up to 2500sf.  The PE Summit is rated at 3000sf+!.

Even though there may be no stove capable of heating the volume of air space I have (at this time), at least I can try to get as close as I can.

We do have a forced air gas heating throughout the house, it just costs around 1,000 per month in propane...and.....well you know where this is going!

I think my replies above are accurate and I have at least chosen the stove "closest" to meeting my volume demands.


----------



## stoveguy13 (May 28, 2007)

the only freestanding stove in my opion that can even get close to that 3000 sqft mark is the 5700 quad almost all the manufactuers over state the stoves real heating capacity the best method you can take to figure out wich stove will heat the most space is to look at the size of the firebox the more wood the more heat the other major consideration that should be looked at is the material the stove is made out of the steel stoves are more of a true convection heater if you are going to try and heat the house from a remote location this will prove a better choice if the stove is going in a room that you plan on spending alot of time in cast may be the better choice as it has better radiant qualities hope this helps  you make the choice better


----------



## MustBurn (May 28, 2007)

Just speaking from experience here, I have the Jotul 600 Firelight.  It heats my 2100 sq ft home nicely.  It is the only heat I have (hence the name "MustBurn").  I only run into trouble below 20 degrees, while burning wet wood.  I have fired it to 650 degrees with no issues and run it overnight with no problems.  It's a good stove...

MB


----------



## Gooserider (May 28, 2007)

I would agree with stoveguy13 about the VERY limited value of mfg heating capacity estimates.  A certain volume of wood can put out so many BTU's (exact number depends on the variety) when burned.  The only real variable is how long the stove takes to burn the wood, (as in how many BTU's/hour)  and that is pretty much under your control, as all the stoves can be adjusted about the same amount.

You will get some variation depending on the stove material - mostly a time shift, soapstone takes longer to get hot and start radiating, but radiates longer after the fire goes out, and arguably maintains a more uniform average temperature.  Steel pretty much tracks whatever is going on inside the firebox, and cast iron is somewheres in between.

The marketing department is the one that comes up with the "volume heated" number - but there is no "standard" on the volume, so company A's 2000 sq ft is not going to be the same as company B's.  Similarly there is no standard for defining "burn time", or even peak and average BTU's...  Each of those numbers can be shrunk or stretched depending on how you tune the stove, and (again) there is no standard.  They don't have to get all the numbers off the same stove settings, but can (and may) tune the stove to optimize each one.  In essence you can have a short hot burn (High peak BTU's) or a slow cool burn (long burn time) or something in between, (best average BTU, usually) but you can't get all three.  VC claims to use the same setup for all three, which is why their numbers are arguably more conservative than some of the other brands.

The ONLY variable that really tells you anything useful is firebox size - a bigger firebox = more wood per load in = longer / hotter fires (pick one, depending on stove settings) = more heat / load of wood out...  Note that within limits, you can get as much heat out of a small stove as you do out of a big one, you'll just be running it hotter and reloading more often.

In your shoes I'd throw all those mfgr performance numbers out the window, and simply go for the biggest firebox that you find otherwise acceptable.

Gooserider


----------



## Todd (May 28, 2007)

GEE WIZ!, Get the Cat Defiant already! You like the looks and the fire box is as big as it gets, so the btu output will be the same or more than any other similar sized stove. Don't look at the BTU numbers by the manufactures, they are all fudged. You can only get so many BTU's per lb of wood no matter what kind of wood you burn. The cat will burn less wood and more heat because it's more efficient. People will argue, but it's true.


----------



## scotty (May 28, 2007)

Mr. Hunky, I'm not sure you are considering things in the same way that you will after using your stove a few years. You describe yourself as a novice, so if you don't mind I'd like to share some knowledge gleaned from a lifetime of wood heat.

First of all, people rarely run a wood stove flat out except on the very coldest days. That is because when you get a stove that hot, the uninhabitable area close to such an intense source of heat really cuts into your usable floor space.  What good is it if the farthest reaches of the house are warm but nobody wants to be close to the stove?

It isn't like forced air where you have a lot of volume of warm air circulating around you. Wood stoves are HOT. And they RADIATE intense heat. The quality of the heat you are putting into the room is much different  than warm forced air. I'll say it again, simply comparing BTU with forced air can be misleading because most of your wood heat is radiant heat, not hot air heat.  Unlike a room heated by forced air, when you stand in a line of sight of the wood stove you will definitely be warmer than you will be if you step around a partition, behind a counter, or even step behind a piece of furniture.  BTW, in your furniture layout you will be more comfortable if your furniture can be moved to take advantage of variations in the heat of the stove versus the weather. Some days you will want to face the stove - some days you will want to face awary from it. Being able to move around in a room to find different zones of heat is something intrensic to wood heat that is very different from forced air heat. 

You will find that some people with large homes will use several wood stoves at moderate settings rather than one stove at full blast. That's a personal choice that you will understand more about after you have used a single wood heat source for a few years. Frankly, I think any of the stoves you have listed are fine for your purpose. I also think it is wise of you to have a back up source of forced air heat. 

Another thing....I also think that rating stoves on the basis of their advertised ability to heat xxxx cubic feet of house is not the best way to compare them. Stoves of similar dimension tend to differ more in advertising hype then they do in operation. 

If you would compare stoves on a single basis, consider doing so on the volume of the firebox first and maybe the weight secondly.  Off hand I would say that you want a stove with at least 3 cubic feet of firebox and if cast iron it should be weighing over 425 lbs. Most of your favorite stoves will meet those criteria and should put out similar BTU and burn times. The stove world is very competitive; if one stove was clearly better than another we would all know and tell you. In my opinion, way too much advertising copy has been written about emptying the ash box - normally a minor chore. In fact some stoves work better if the ash box is allowed to fill up and stay full. On the other hand, I am so biased toward the value of top loading that I won't even consider buying a stove without it....thereby restricting myself and missing out on some very beautiful stoves. 

Moreover, every experienced wood burner will tell you that your chimney design is at least as important as the stove - probably  more so. You should put a lot of thought into the draft because that's where much of the performance difference lies. Consider that a good chimney system will cost as much as the stove.... maybe more - and is a lot harder to change. For that matter, I have absolute confidence in telling you that what kind of wood you burn in the stove along with what kind of chimney you construct will make more of a difference than which brand of stove that you end up with.  

I hope I'm not bursting your bubble, but heating 4000 cubic feet with one raging stove on a cold day at 8000 feet is barely possible - and it is certainly going to be different than you are visualizing.  Cold days can be a lot of work, but it is worthwhile as the temperature falls outside and the whole family just sort of migrates toward the stove. Woodstove togetherness. And on the days when a more uniformly heated house is desireable, you may want to consider leaving the stove on medium and making up the difference with the forced air system. 

Wood heat has an oddly satisfying quality which touches some deep seated sense of comfort.  Yes, it is work, but obviously all of us here think the effort is worthwhile. Whichever one you decide on I'd bet you will enjoy the season and learn from it too. 
         Good Luck,  Scotty


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 28, 2007)

Goose:

Thanks for the very in-depth "realistic" reply.  As I've said before, I am a total novice and so I tend to read the literature produced by the MFG's in depth but take all their specs with a grain of salt!.  Even the local stove shops tell me that much if not most of the industry specs are totally unregulated and the numbers can be fudged or stretched as most statistics can be.

Your simple explanations make perfect sense to me and I can't find fault with the basics of your explanations other than one; let me explain.

Somewhere in this equasion, I would like to think that "'quality"  must be a factor in a stoves performance as well/  I will use my own personal situation as an example.

In my case. I will have an extremely high piping to exit the roof (almost 30').  Because of this very tall height of piping needed; I may have a tendancy for the stove to want to overfire due to a very strong draft (causwed by the height).

To make this situation worse, I will be burning almost exclusively pine (quick and hot burning), which will certainly not help an already overfiring situation.

Should I have a choice between a "leaky" stove, or one that is very "tight", I can only assume that the tighter stove will leak in less unwanted air thereby allowing me to have a better control over the temp setting.  Should I just get any stove (based only on its largest bax size), without taking into account how well made or at least how "tight" it is, I may be faced with a situation in which I will have very little to almost no control over the lower burn/temp settings as all the air leaks will combine with my super draft and hot burning wood and all I will have left is a raging out of control fire....all the time!

Todd:

To answer your statement "you like the defiant, it has a huge firebox, just buy it already!).  Part of me agrees with you 100%, yet part of me is still very nervous to potentially end up with a constant raging out of control burn do to the inability to control the lower burn rates/temp settings caused by a stove that leaks too much air.

I know members have said that VC quality has improved but to be totally honest, downgrading a lifetime warranty to a limited three year warrantee does not increase my confidence in them!!

I REALLY want to make the right choice (that we can live with), and that will be to purchase a stove with a very large firebox (3.0 cf or more) that can keep a burn going throughout the night and also IS TIGHT ENOUGH to allow me to control my lower settings somewhat effectively.

Based on what others have told me, and from what I have read, there are very few options.   I do have confidence in the PE Summit, classic, alderlea based on their lifetime warranty and from others personal experiences.  The same is true for the Hearthstone Mansfield but the wife won't allow it based only on its looks, nothing else.

I personally think the VC Defiant is the nicest looking stove (IMO) out there which is why I keep talking about it.  YES, I am "wishy-washy", "fickle", you name it, because I am looking for the performance of say a quadrafire 5100 or blazeking 1107 in the beauty of a VC defiant  and the quality of a Hearstone.

The best "compromise" I can currently come up with (although I've changed my mind a few times!!), is the new PE Alderlea.

It only has one single opening (to reduce possible leaks from other openings), has the best warrantee in the industry, has only excellent reviews (based on its brother the summit), it can hold a burn all night (so I'm told) and is a non-cat for better simplicity for a novice burning crappy pine with a 30' stack!!

So, now you must be wondering, "Why the hell don't you just buy the PE Alderlea then??".      Honest answer, the wife REALLY likes the looks of the Defiant better, we have a local VC dealer now (the last one went out of business!!......another confidence killer!!}, and there is no *local* PE dealer nearby, other than a very small shop several hundred miles away!.

So, if you were me, what would you do??.   Buy a unit that has a spotty record from a local dealer who knows nothing at all about this new line,   OR,  buy a unit with a very good reputation from someone you have no idea about since they are a tiny little shop many hundreds of miles away??.

I will come to a descision soon, I promise.  I just want to know I made the right one.  Being a novice in an unregulated industry does'nt help either!.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 28, 2007)

Scotty:

Thanks for your reply. I must have been typing as you were replying and may have covered a few iteams that you already mentioned.

Your reply came across as very knowledgable and sincere and i really appreciate that.

I must say that I don't have unrealistic expectations for any stove, especially trying to heat around 4000 sf of "volume".  That said, I would rather fall overboard from a boat 1/2 mile from shore as opposed to 4 miles from shore!  Even though it may be unrealistic to heat 4000 sf with a single stove, I would at least want to get one that is capable of doing 2500 to 3000 as opposed to less.

I still have one trick up my sleeve that I have not mentioned yet, but I promise to inform you of it tomorrow,  (it's almost midnight and I'm tired!).

Thanks again for the informative replies.  Hint:  My "trick up my sleeve" has to do with somehow routing the heat from the wood stove into the already existing duct work throughout the whole house that is used by the current forced air gas unit..   The return grate for the forced air unit is very close to the wood stove location and has me thinking!!.    Now I know I won't get any sleep tonight!


----------



## Gooserider (May 28, 2007)

Your reasoning on the "quality" issue makes sense, and arguably any welded firebox stove SHOULD be tighter sealing than a cast stove simply by virtue of having fewer seams to potentially leak.  However we have had users that have had problems (resolved by an adjustment, but it was tricky to find) with gasket leaks on a PE, and bad welds on an Englander (Englander did take care of the problem) so quality can still be an issue. It is one of the other things that I had in mind when I said pick the biggest firebox out of the otherwise acceptable units...

In your situation, I would probably incorporate a chimney damper into any setup that I built as a properly used damper can help to resolve overdraft problems (You do need to be careful not to use it as a "band-aid" to cover other issues, but it will solve genuine overdrafts...)  Our house doesn't have the altitude yours does, and I burn mostly hardwood, but I also have a tall stack (about 25') so I need to worry about draft issues as well.  My smoke dragon has a chimney damper built in, and I'd want to put one in for any stove I replaced it with because of my stack height.

I can understand your concern about VC quality and such, but the cat Defiant is a long established model with a good track record overall.  Remember that there are a couple of factors that distort what you see here on the forum...  
1. We tend to see more "problem cases" than average - there are two main classes of newcomers we see here, those like you who are trying to make smart purchases, and those who are having problems they are trying to figure out.  We seldom get people with perfectly working stoves signing up to tell us how well they work...  
2. VC is the 800lb gorrilla of the stove industry, and probably sell ten times as many stoves as all the other makers combined - if they had the same defect rate as everyone else in the industry, you would see huge numbers of VC complaints just because they sell so many stoves...  Considering the number of Defiants that are probably out there (I don't know the exact sales figures) the number of complaints we get here suggest a fairly low defect rate.

For reasons I discuss elsewhere, I'm not seriously in the market for a new stove, but if I were, the VC Encore would very much be on my "short list" (our house is smaller, so we don't need the Defiant size)

The only big thing that would worry me about a cat in your situation is that some folks say that pine that isn't VERY well dried tends to put out more creosote than hardwoods, which means you need to make sure your wood is well seasoned and that you keep your cat working above the "light-off" temp as much as possible to avoid the potential for clogs.

I'm not quite as comfortable with the newer "everburn" technology as that seems to have gotten more mixed reviews, however at least some of the problem cases have been low draft issues, which shouldn't be your problem.

I think you'd be happy with either a PE or the Defiant.  The Isle Royal is slightly smaller, but probably would also do well for you if you wanted the top load and non-cat combo - .3 CF isn't such a huge difference in size for that class of stove, and again we don't here of that many issues with the IR.

Gooserider


----------



## Gooserider (May 28, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> Scotty:
> 
> Thanks for your reply. I must have been typing as you were replying and may have covered a few iteams that you already mentioned.
> 
> ...



Before you get over excited about this, check your codes  There are very strict rules about the locations of stoves and HVAC returns - I forget the exact clearances but I think its a 10' minimum, I wish Elk were still around for the official numbers...  The reason is a concern that if you had a malfunction, the HVAC system could cause the rapid spread of smoke and / or carbon monoxide throughout the house with potentially life threatening consequences.  (same reason stoves are prohibited in bedrooms)

The other issue is that the hot air coming off the stove is only going to be a few degrees warmer than the room is, unlike in your furnace heat exchanger where you have about a 30-50* temperature rise.  Your HVAC system looses a good bit of heat in the ducting, and is not terribly effective at redistributing stove temperature air.  You will be better off trying to encourage natural circulation in the house space, possibly using a few strategically placed fans, rather than trying to use the HVAC system.

I know this from experience, we had a little box that hooked into our thermostat, and cycled the HVAC fan for ~5 minutes every 15 minutes or so.  We found the net result was that the house temp over all averaged out a little more evenly, but mostly by dropping the room with the stove by about 5 degrees, and bringing the rest of the house up about one...  I turned it off about half way through this past winter, didn't miss it, and recently sold the box to someone else...

Gooserider


----------



## titan (May 28, 2007)

Goose, I've seen many commercial HVAC installs where asmokegas detector was located in the return air duct of the system,wired in series with the safetycontrol circuit of the unit to shut it down if such an emergency arose.I guess a person could do the same thing with a residential application if they were really sold on the idea of trying to circulate that warmer air from the stove room to the remainder of the home.I agree with your own experience though,the idea of distributing hot stove room air via the Hvac ducting sounds great,but never really lives up to its' billing.


----------



## seaken (May 28, 2007)

In my opinion, you should have installed a masonry heater. But given the choices of wood stoves you have discussed here I would consider carefully my own ability to maintain the entire system. If you are a good mechanic, then choose the Defiant catalytic. If you tend to avoid mechanical work, choose the PE. Also, consider your budget. The chimney for the Defiant will cost more. And you can expect about $150/year for repairs and maintenance. The cost per year of maintenance for the PE will likely be under $50. Although, depending on some variables hard to predict, you may break even on yearly costs due to the increased efficiency of the catalytic system. 

I also think you are trying too hard to get the perfect stove. I think any of the stoves mentioned can be your perfect stove. Don't get so caught up in the minute details that is prevents you from making a decision. I don't think you have to fear making a mistake when considering any of these stoves. I would choose based on the feature set that I liked the best. Sounds like your wife favors the Defiant. That should be enough to swing the decision in favor of the Defiant. Especially if you like the top load and warming shelves, etc. The PE is a fine stove. But no top load, no warming shelves, no double-door open "Franklin style" ambiance, etc. 

Good luck. And welcome to the world of wood burning.

Sean


----------



## Gooserider (May 28, 2007)

Titan said:
			
		

> Goose, I've seen many commercial HVAC installs where asmokegas detector was located in the return air duct of the system,wired in series with the safetycontrol circuit of the unit to shut it down if such an emergency arose.I guess a person could do the same thing with a residential application if they were really sold on the idea of trying to circulate that warmer air from the stove room to the remainder of the home.I agree with your own experience though,the idea of distributing hot stove room air via the Hvac ducting sounds great,but never really lives up to its' billing.



It is probably possible from a theoretical standpoint, although I wonder if such a setup would work fast enough to be effective in a home scale system as opposed to an industrial size system - If sensitive enough to react quickly, you also have a higher probability of false alarms - likely to rapidly lead to the system getting disconnected!  There are some new homes with hardwired smoke detectors that do shut down the HVAC at the same time, but that isn't enough to change the rules as I understand it.

At any rate, my understanding from Elk is that (at least in the US) codes don't permit that sort of setup in this situation.  To bad he's on break and can't chime in with the specific chapter & verse references and the exact details about what is and isn't OK.

I'm sure that searching back you can probably find something on it, as well as his opinion about just how an HVAC system ought to be setup for best performance in both heating and cooling.

Gooserider


----------



## begreen (May 28, 2007)

This has already been discussed, but the issue in this house is going to be heat stratification, ie: it's going to be hotter up in the loft than on the 1st floor. A pair of ceiling fans blowing upward will do a great deal to mitigate the issue and will be virtually silent. Using the return ductwork is not an efficient way to do this. Goose is correct, the distance to the return must not be less than 10 feet. Here is the code:

301.9 Fuel types. Fuel-fired appliances shall be designed for
use with the type of fuel to which they will be connected and the
altitude at which they are installed. Appliances that comprise
parts of the building mechanical system shall not be converted
for the usage of a different fuel, except where approved and
converted in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.
The fuel input rate shall not be increased or decreased beyond
the limit rating for the altitude at which the appliance is
installed.

This code is not part of what was asked of me in the original post but this guestion has come up often concerning bedroom locations. In the past my state based their Mechanical codes on the 1993 Boca Mechanical with the adoption of the 7th edition we now are part of the International code community. All these codes I had not looked into before but the 2003 and 2006 International mechanical codes have the updates that answer many past questions.

SECTION 303
EQUIPMENT AND APPLIANCE LOCATION
303.1 General. Equipment and appliances shall be located as
required by this section, specific requirements elsewhere in this
code and the conditions of the equipment and appliance listing.
303.2 Hazardous locations. Appliances shall not be located in
hazardous location unless listed and approved for the specific
installation.
303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be
located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following
rooms or spaces:
1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exception: This section shall not apply to the following
appliances:
1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air
directly from the outdoors.

701.3 Circulation of air. The equipment and appliances within
every room containing fuel-burning appliances shall be
installed so as to allow free circulation of air. Provisions shall
be made to allow for the simultaneous operation of mechanical
exhaust systems, fireplaces or other equipment and appliances
operating in the same room or space from which combustion
and dilution air is being drawn. Such provisions shall prevent
the operation of such appliances, equipment and systems from
affecting the supply of combustion and dilution air.

*918.6 Prohibited sources. Outdoor or return air for a*
*forced-air heating system shall not be taken from the following*
*locations:*

6. A room or space containing a fuel-burning appliance
where such room or space serves as the sole source of
return air.

1. Closer than 10 feet (3048 mm) from an appliance vent
outlet, a vent opening from a plumbing drainage system
or the discharge outlet of an exhaust fan, unless the outlet
is 3 feet (914 mm) above the outdoor air inlet.
2. Where there is the presence of objectionable odors,
fumes or flammable vapors; or where located less than
10 feet (3048 mm)above the surface of any abutting public
way or driveway; or where located at grade level by a
sidewalk, street, alley or driveway.
Exceptions:
1. This shall not apply where the fuel-burning
appliance is a direct-vent appliance.
2. This shall not apply where the room or space
complies with the following requirements:
2.1. The return air shall be taken from a room or
space having a volume exceeding 1 cubic
foot for each 10 Btu/h (9.6 L/W) of combined
input rating of all fuel-burning appliances
therein.
2.2. The volume of supply air discharged back
into the same space shall be approximately
equal to the volume of return air taken from
the space.
2.3. Return-air inlets shall not be located within
10 feet (3048 mm)of any appliance firebox
or draft hood in the same room or space.
3. This shall not apply to rooms or spaces containing
solid fuel-burning appliances, provided that
return-air inlets are located not less than 10 feet
(3048 mm)from the firebox of such appliances.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 28, 2007)

Okay guys, thanks for the info on the hvac possibility (or lack thereof!).  I did'nt know if it were an option to pump the stoves hot air around using the existing duct work throughout the house but once again, BeGreen came to the rescue to clear up that issue real quick!.

A few members now have mentioned  that I should have a "damper" installed.  I am not really sure what that is, but just by the definition of the word, I assume it is some type of devise (possibly a moving flap of sorts) that will act to restrict the air flow up the stack thereby reducing an overdraft situation; is this correct?

At this time, I feel very confident that we will purchase either the VC Defiant or the PE Alderlea. (Although I'm still not sure about a cat or non cat Defiant and I don't want to open a can of worms on the whole cat/non cat debate).  For the moment, knowing that I will purchase one of those two stove options, can we discuss proper venting (stack/chimney) for a moment?.

It seems that proper piping and setup can be as important (possibly even more), than the stove itself (so I am told)..

As fussy as I am in trying to pick the correct stove for our application, I certainly don't want to screw it up in the venting area.

I have an estimate from a local certified installer to put in a stove for either the Defiant or Alderlea using 6'' double wall  simpson "duratech" piping.  It mentions in the bid parts such as 2100* pipe, flashing,6'' to 8'' oval adaptor- and storm collars, but no mention of a damper.

From all I have read and learned so far, it seems that I am the poster child for overfiring!  (30' high ceiling, 8000ft elevation, burning fast and hot pine).  I would really like to know the best setup to use in my situation.  Any tips would be appreciated.


----------



## Todd (May 28, 2007)

seaken said:
			
		

> In my opinion, you should have installed a masonry heater. But given the choices of wood stoves you have discussed here I would consider carefully my own ability to maintain the entire system. If you are a good mechanic, then choose the Defiant catalytic. If you tend to avoid mechanical work, choose the PE. Also, consider your budget. The chimney for the Defiant will cost more. And you can expect about $150/year for repairs and maintenance. The cost per year of maintenance for the PE will likely be under $50. Although, depending on some variables hard to predict, you may break even on yearly costs due to the increased efficiency of the catalytic system.
> 
> I also think you are trying too hard to get the perfect stove. I think any of the stoves mentioned can be your perfect stove. Don't get so caught up in the minute details that is prevents you from making a decision. I don't think you have to fear making a mistake when considering any of these stoves. I would choose based on the feature set that I liked the best. Sounds like your wife favors the Defiant. That should be enough to swing the decision in favor of the Defiant. Especially if you like the top load and warming shelves, etc. The PE is a fine stove. But no top load, no warming shelves, no double-door open "Franklin style" ambiance, etc.
> 
> ...



Hey Sean,
What exactly are these yearly maintenance and repair costs you talk about?


----------



## begreen (May 28, 2007)

The 6" Simpson Duravent damper is part #8679. It can easily be added later, but if it were me, I'd put in the damper to decrease wood consumption and increase control. The reason is that you won't be able to shut off the stove tightly in the event of an overfire. The pine you will be burning will want to burn quick and hot. A stack damper and a stack thermometer will help you watch for this condition and regulate it better. If you choose the everburn defiant, you will very likely need it. Based on reports coming into the Hearth forum, these stoves can get red hot in the back when there is very strong draft. This may be less of an issue with the cat version.

This wouldn't be an issue with a masonry heater, they are amongst the simplest and safest to operate, but will be something to watch when burning in a wood stove. For more info, search the forum for "overfire" and also search for "runaway fire".


examples:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6674/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/3934/


----------



## seaken (May 28, 2007)

Todd said:
			
		

> Hey Sean,
> What exactly are these yearly maintenance and repair costs you talk about?



Some stoves require more regular parts replacement than others, or a high parts bill after several years of use. I do not know the PE brand that well. I am more familiar with LOPI and Avalon in that class. In our experience, the cast iron stoves, especially the previously popular designs where the plates were cemented together, end up costing more on a yearly basis than a steel box stove. There is no certainty. But we have enough data to come up with a general average. Then based on the expected use of the stove we can guess at what level of cost each type of stove might fall under.

In general it goes like this,

(comparative levels of cost for replacement parts)

High - Approx $150/year
Cast iron models used as primary heaters. Typically catalytic, like a Defiant.

Medium - Approx $100/year
Cast Iron models used as supplementary. Non-cat types, such as Morso.

Low - $50 or less
Steel stoves. Non-cat box stoves. Like Lopi, PE, Quad, etc.

And, of course, the many variations of the above general levels. For instance, a Morso non-cat used a primary heater 24/7.

In other words, a full-time 24/7 burner with a Defiant can expect a repair bill of over $1000 in about ten years. Adding in the incidentals such as gasketing and the catalytic over that same ten years, the yearly rate is over $150/year. 

On the other-hand, a full-time 24/7 burner with a PE or LOPI might have to replace the baffle or air plates/tubes, and maybe some bricks or insulating blanket. In that same ten year period the total cost of parts is usually less than $500, or less than $50/year.

Supplemental or occasional use may see considerably less yearly parts replacement costs. In the case of a steel non-cat, maybe they will never have to replace anything. In that case, $0/year. In a catalytic they may have to replace the cat, at least. At $200-$250 that's about $25/year.

Add to that your chimney sweep costs, aquisition costs (how much did it cost to buy and install divided by its expected life-span), fuel (cord wood), etc. Each stove type can then be matched with an expected yearly cost. This can then be used to help figure the payback time, when measured against the cost of heating the same volume with your main source of energy (oil, electric, NG, etc.)

Sean


----------



## Gooserider (May 29, 2007)

A bit more description on the costs Seaken mentions - 

There is a certain level of "wear" that a stove goes through, basically a combination of the effect of heating/cooling cycles, chemical reactions undergone by hot metal, gas corrosion, etc.  Not suprisingly, the more a stove is used, the hotter it is run at, the more "wear" you will get.  Pretty much all stoves will have some parts that will fail over time when subjected to burning, how much time is a function of how hot you get the stove (over-firing or even running on the edge for extended periods will drastically reduce part life) and how long it stays hot.  All of these costs are of the "routine maintainance" sort, just like getting your car fixed, and as you'd expect the more you burn the stove, the more it costs, just like your car costs more when you drive it a lot...

Cat stoves have the additional problem that the cat slowly wears out and is generally considered an eventual replacement item.  The OEM cats are about $250, but there are aftermarket cats that are lower cost (about $150) and claim longer lifetimes and better operating characteristics than the OEM versions.  (BTW, Elk swears by them, and when we went up to VC on that tour we made a while back their engineering guy said the aftermarket units were good, but that VC wasn't able to use them because they couldn't reach a good price point and the problem of needing to recertify the stoves if they changed the cat unit used in them.) - Assuming an aftermarket cat run per instructions, and getting at least the warranteed life, a cat will cost $15-25 / year on average, paid in lumps to replace them.
Partly compensating, a non-cat stove has other parts like insulation baffles and air tubes that are exposed to the flames and tend to get damaged over time, again requiring somewhat expensive replacement.

A cast iron stove is made of a bunch of flat plates that are fastened together with bolts and sealed with stove cement, gasketing, or some combination of both.  Newer design stoves are tending towards more use of gaskets, which have a higher cost, but are easier to work with, and allegedly less likely to require maintainance.  All the joints have a tendency to break down over time and develop leaks, so part of the "routine maintainance" on a cast iron stove is to take it apart and rebuild it with fresh cement and / or gaskets, possibly you might need to replace other parts at the same time.  A welded plate stove won't have this issue, but is far harder to repair if a problem does develop.  Also because of the nature of cast construction vs. plate construction, a plate stove is more likely to have other parts inside the firebox that will need replacement.

ALL stoves will have gaskets around doors and windows (especially the door gaskets) that will need periodic replacement due to wear from opening and closing the door on them - I doubt that stove type would have much impact on frequency or cost for this, mostly it's a function of how often you are opening the door...

Seaken is in the industry, and I'm not, so I don't have solid evidence to argue with his numbers, but I suspect the differences are less than he states, especially if you can do the work yourself...  (I suspect that much of what he mentions is labor costs rather than parts...  The parts to rebuild a cemented stove are relatively cheap, but it's a lengthy job, so it's low cost as a DIY project, but expensive with a pro.

Gooserider


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 29, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> ALL stoves will have gaskets around doors and windows (especially the door gaskets) that will need periodic replacement due to wear from opening and closing the door on them - I doubt that stove type would have much impact on frequency or cost for this, mostly it's a function of how often you are opening the door...
> 
> Gooserider




Very well said!. I also would'nt be surprised if the gaskets on all the brands (or most of them) don't come from the same place; or are at least very similar.

Once the proper adjustments have been made to a new stove (if any needed), most of the wear on the gaskets would have no reflections upon the individual brands, but rather the frequency in which they are opened regardless of brand.  That makes perfect sence!.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 29, 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> Warranty  lenght means nothing, if there is evidence of abuse or over-firing the stove. This post goes around and around ,with the same things repeated time and time again
> 
> Lets start a poll to see who buys first,  True Patriot or  Hunky.  Right now it is tough to call,  as TP had a head start.




Buster:

Part of me agrees with you and sais "it's time to make a descision, you've done enough research", and part of me reads posts/replies in which a member will say "If I were to do it all over again......, sometimes choosing a different path".

I would rather do to much research and end up with the perfect choive, rather than make a hurried descision and end up sorry for it.

Almost all the members who have responded, PM'ed me, and replied to this thread have done so in a very informative, factual manner and I really appreciate that.

I have disclosed numerous times that I know nothing about wood stoves, and it may take me a while to gain the knowledge and confidense in choosing the right one.  At nearly 1,400 hits, I would also like to think that there may be numerous "lurkers" who are similar to me in obtaining more knowledge and info regarding wood stoves.

Your comment on wanting to start a contest between two members doing in depth research for their own and others benefit really disturbs me.  Not only is it a mock of two fellow members, but in a way, it also discounts the efforts that all the other members have contributed to this thread.

If you have a personal beef with me...fine, post up all the nonproductive negative comments you want, just don't take the entire thread and everyone else down with it!.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 29, 2007)

Rest "Hunky". Buster was just poking a little fun. As members will do on occasion. Me being probably the number one "poker". Your inquiry hasn't even reached the margins of the posts by the other member he referred to.

Inquire. Learn. Leave the chip next to the keyboard.  :cheese: 

BTW: Your first wood stove won't be the perfect one. Nor the second. Nor the third. And there is no such thing as maintenance free wood burning. But anything you have to do to maintain the stove will pale in comparison to the work of whacking the eight to ten cords of pine you will be piling up each year to stay warm. In fact taking a little time to maintain the stove will be known as rest and recuperation.

Find a good stove but also make friends with a really nice Park Ranger around there and buy some cord permits and get to building that woodpile. No matter what stove you end up with it will have one thing in common with every wood stove on the planet. Its gotta have something to eat. And that something is wood. Dry seasoned wood. And winter just ain't that far away.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 30, 2007)

.  



Words to live by my "Brother" from another mother!!


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 30, 2007)

Buster said:
			
		

> There has to be some humor, not all is cut and dry...




Okay, now that was a good one! (at least on this forum!).

So lets keep the brazillion questions comming from me because I have lots more.

This may sound stupid, but I just don't know; and I;ll ask anyway!.  Seeing as though one of my final choices is offered in a "catalytic" version..(VC Defiant), I had read that the "cat" must be engaged at around 600-1000*, NEVER more than 1500*.  Does that mean that with a "cat", you can;t have a slow-simmering fire because you need to be between 600-1000*?.    OR, can you still have a long, slow burning fire in a cat stove, it's just  that the cat won't engage until you burn hotter?


----------



## begreen (May 30, 2007)

The cat needs to be at a certain temperature in order to catalyze the unburnt gases coming from the wood. So with a cat stove, you bring it up to temp, then kick in the cat. The nice thing with the Defiant is that from that point until the wood is expended, the thermostatic control takes over and does all the micro-regulating of the temp for you. This provides a longer, more even tempered burn. Also, while the cat is at that temp, the stove top is not necessarily at the same temperature.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 30, 2007)

Okay, the "cat" needs to be at a certain temp to burn the unburnt gases, so does that mean that a "cat" stove cannot ever have a slow burning "mild" fire for extended periods of time..(say several hours?).  Or, do cat stoves only operate by getting up to "cat" temps (over 600*) and then continue from there?

I'm still unclear on this.


----------



## daleeper (May 30, 2007)

I am not an expert on the specifics on temp that the cat fires at, but yes, it needs to be operated at temperatures that the cat will operate efficiently at.  Keep in mind that ALL clean burning stoves, cat and non-cat stoves need to be burning at temperatures high enough to burn the unburnt gases.  A smoldering fire produces creosote.

This is where cat/non-cat debates usually start, as it appears to me with data that has been presented on this forum through the many discussions on this subject that the cat stove can burn the secondary gases at a lower temperature than a non-cat stove can.  Thus one should be able to run the cat stove at a lower temp for extended periods of time than a non-cat in milder weather.  Read up on Elk's operation of his stoves, to get a perspective on the advantages of the thermostatic control on the VC stoves, as a cat with thermostatic control seems to be the combination that I am seeking on my next stove.

Let the flames begin.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 30, 2007)

Okay, thanks for the explanation.

What I really should have asked is if I want to pack the stove full of wood for an overnight burn, and wanted to set the air control at a lower setting so the fire burns all night, if a "cat" stove is able to do this.  I can only picture in my mind a slow burning-overnight fire which I was'nt sure if the temps were hot enough to keep a cat going.

Should a cat stove be able to burn throughout the night (packed full of wood), and make it to the next morning,  well then, that may be the ticket I am looking for!.

It seems that the VC Defiant cat may fit this bill nicely and I;ll also be sure to install a damper (per BeGreen's suggestion) to have more control of my burns should I have an overfiring situation due to my very high stack.  The thermostatically controlled feature sounds real slick as well, (assuming it works properly).


----------



## elkimmeg (May 30, 2007)

I know I broke my promise, but One need some help. Thanks Buster.   There are a couple of ways to monitor or run a stove effeciently. One is experience, 35 years of wood burning
 The second way is with the aid of a thermometer Stove top placed on the griddle. Third is an actual Cat Combustor Probe thermometer like Mo Heat has ( made by Condar)
This way, it tell you exactly what is going on in the cat combustor compartment..

I don't have one. I use the common surface mount on the Griddle top. I' m here to explain,, not endorsing a manufacturer, as to how things work.  One can use the visual approach wait till the wood gets  chared then activate the Cat damper or watch the temp on the griddle top above 500. Cold nights I wait to 600/650 and engage. Yes, I could engage earlier, But I want heat. Remenber there is a secondary thermatically controlled air supply, that enters the Cat combustor compartment.  When I engage the bi pass dampe, I want that thermatically controlled air to remenber the settings. It will open and close the air supply and does a good job of providing a long even heat period.  There are other things going on, once that damper is engaged. If forces the smoke path down over the coal bed super heating it. This technology is called horrizontal burning. Some smoke particulate gets burned off there, but what dose not, is super heated before it enters the Cat combustion chamber.  The second phase of what is going on is the secondary air is channeled behind the steel plates and it too is super heated as it enters the secondary combustion chamber.  With super heated smoke and secondary air, the cat lights offf at 500 degreees. Unlike other stoves. they need 1000 degrees to combust smoke,so their secondary ignition is intermitten as the interior temps fluxuates. The Cat combustor once, lit  stay lit, till no more smoke particulates can be burnt.  It is a contineous process.  Naturally at the end of the combustion process there is little smoke to burn, But the thermatically controled secondary air opens to still add air to maintain the fire box temps.

All this to answer your question Usually my main air supply is open between 1/4 and not at all. I let the thermoatically controled secondary air control the burn rate. the set and forget approach

I may from time to time, adjust the primary air open a nudge, if a very cold night and I want more heat.  

All this talk about refractory cement and rebuilding stoves. Well I done a few usually plan to recaulk seams in 15 years or more, many are approaching 20 years of service still opperating fine. 

The cat cleaning takes 5 minutes and I do it at the start of the burn season and at mid point. 

Edit Man I have to go back and edit this post. This is more about understanding the workings of a Cat stove simmilar to the way Woodstocks are made or VC.

In all fairness,the PE Summit also has  a similar control of secondary air.  Secondary air is added to the burn tubes and it works intermitten but the addition of thermomattically air prolongs the burn and even it out.


----------



## seaken (May 30, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> Okay, thanks for the explanation.
> 
> What I really should have asked is if I want to pack the stove full of wood for an overnight burn, and wanted to set the air control at a lower setting so the fire burns all night, if a "cat" stove is able to do this.  I can only picture in my mind a slow burning-overnight fire which I was'nt sure if the temps were hot enough to keep a cat going.
> 
> ...



We have experienced longer burn times and relatively cooler surface temperatures with the catalytic models. However, burn times are largely a result of poundage of fuel. Also, the softwood pines may tend to burn a little hotter than the hardwoods we are used to out here. But I still think you will be happier with the catalytic. It burns clean over a wider range of conditions and tends to self-baffle. Some people have had a hard time keeping some of the non-cats damped down. Then again, I've had some folks let their catalytics get over-heated also. Much of this will be up to you, as the user.

Personally, I would install an 8" flue with the Defiant. If a pipe damper were needed it could be added later. But there is no guarantee that you'll have an overdraft problem. The catalytic Defiant especially does not generally have a problem with over-drafting. But anything's possible. It will work on the 6" flue. VC does not guarantee smokeless open-door burning with a 6" flue. But, as has been stated, many people get good results with the 6". I would definitely not start with a pipe damper in the 6" flue. All of these stoves are designed to operated on an open flue pipe. Be careful with adding pipe dampers. They are rarely needed and they are generally discouraged by the stove manufacturers.

FWIW, we have over 30 years experience with VC stoves. There are no exact answers that fit every case. Circumstances between installation  s differ. Still, in our experience, the catalytic models are best in 24/7 environments. Higher maintenance, yes, but better overall combustion rates and efficiencies. There are many here who swear that their non-cat is better. And in some cases that may be true. But in your case, with your house, we have had much better results with the catalytic models. We live in the mountains also (although not as high) and we have many homes with a similar design. The Defiant and Encore Catalytic models have been doing a great job for several years in our region. 

I sound like I'm trying to sell the catalytic. Ultimately, it's your choice. I can't say for sure that the NC models will not work just as well for you. I only want to suggest that the catalytic models will be a good choice. Sometimes I see catalytics get dismissed here as not as good as non-cats. I disagree and merely want to emphasize that catalytic models are still holding their own, even under the barage of negative press.

Sean


----------



## scotty (May 30, 2007)

SUPER HUNKY Wrote:

 "What I really should have asked is if I want to pack the stove full of wood for an overnight burn, and wanted to set the air control at a lower setting so the fire burns all night, if a “cat” stove is able to do this.  I can only picture in my mind a slow burning-overnight fire which I was’nt sure if the temps were hot enough to keep a cat going. "

Hunk, I'm not sure that you ever got an answer to that question. Part of the reason lies in history.The short answer is that in the days pre-EPA there were no catalytic stoves and yes, at that time  you could turn any airtight (that's what the term "airtight" meant) stove down to smolder all night. At that time the debate was between airtights and non-airtight stoves!! Turning them down also made lots of smoke and fouled the chimney terribly. Creosote coated pipes were a major problem. So along comes EPA. Now stoves burn lots hotter. Lots hotter. No you can't turn them down to smolder all night anymore.  Neither the cat nor the non-cat has an an "idle" setting on it. The operator cannot close the air draft down like on an airtight stove. That is why all stoves now have minimum square footage specified. Compared with old type wood stoves like the pre EPA Vermont Castings - the new ones are going put out heat whether you want it to or not. In effect, we are back to the old "airtight versus non-airtight" argument of the 1960s. 

        an old timer  -   Scotty


----------



## Gunner (May 30, 2007)

> In my case. I will have an extremely high piping to exit the roof (almost 30’. Because of this very tall height of piping needed; I may have a tendency for the stove to want to overfire due to a very strong draft (causwed by the height).



Is that 30' just to exit the roof or 30' total height.

This is the #1 thing I'd be thinking about. Which stove is going to perform the best with a skyscraping stack? In this case is may be a CAT stove...I don't know. What I do know is that the Summit or any big non cat is going rage when packed full of pine on a 30' stack....reloading a hot stove is going to be interesting to say the least :bug: This may be a good thing for your application tho cause you are going to need the heat with all that space.


Since all of the stoves you are looking at are undersized for your house, you will be red lining the thing during the better part of the winter. Get a stove that can handle it.

The 8" flue on the defiant is going to cost alot more $$$ to install

The clearances and hearth requirements are different for the 2 stoves you are considering, this may or may not be a factor.




Elk, What took you so long.


----------



## begreen (May 30, 2007)

Remember that this is being installed at 7600 ft. I agree with Sean that if a 6" pipe is used with the Defiant Cat, then no damper should be put in. If it were not a cat stove, I would put one in, but I'm used to them. I have one on the Castine and it helped make the stove easier to regulate when burning hot, full loads of softwood with a tallish stack at sea level. True, though it's one more thing to be responsible for.

SH - as far as low fires, you can always add less wood. This would be pretty normal practice in shoulder seasons. At that point, there's no need for a continuous, 24/7 burn.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 30, 2007)

When MSG gets a chance to come up for air he could lend a lot to this discussion. He lives at 8500 feet and burns pine in his Hearthstone Mansfield non-cat stove (yes it has "duck feet" but something that big and heavy needs a bunch of iron to hold it up).


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 30, 2007)

Okay guys:

The question has been asked "why do you keep stating the same things over and over in this post", well, now you can see why!.

I'm obviously very thankful, (not mad), at anyone and very appreciative for all of the help and great suggestions given thus far, however, I am now starting to wonder if I am possibly firing up a "ford vs chevy" debate of sorts.  Please understand, this is NOT my intention to rile everyone up on a cat vs non-cat issue but several members have made supporting arguments for their point in either direction.

I was 95% ready to do out and purchase the VC Defiant "cat", but others have mentioned about it burning "red-hot", just to keep up with the heating demands.

If everyone does'nt mind, and can bear to hear the "specs" of our situation just once more (I know, your thinking, come on man, your killing me, just buy ANY stove!), I will add a few other criteria to possibly sway your answers.  Once again, here they are:

.High elevation 7600 ft
.Large "volume" of air to heat...approx 4000 sf of "volume"  (2000 downstairs footprint, with wide open loft  upstairs of similar size).
.Extremely open floor plan (check out previous pics) with stove to be centered in home
.25' high ceilings with addl 5 or so feet on outside of roof (to meet some code).
.High "thermal mass" of full logs throughout entire home
.Backup very powerful forced air gas system already installed  (just in case stove does'nt cut it all the time)
.Home is always COLD due to its location within the trees and very large eaves overhanging the home, very little sun.


I have narrowed my selection down to either the PE T-6 Alderlea or the VC Defiant "cat" model.

One of these options is a non-cat super-heater (PE), and one is a "cat", (VC), and is also very capable.

Since Mrs Hunky has approved either one, I can literally flip a coin.........but wait, theres more!  (no free ginsu knives however!).

If "I" were reading this post, my first impression would be to say choose the brand with the best dealer support in your area.  Makes sense right?; but thats actually the problem!.  We have NO PE dealer within a few hundred miles from here and the only one in the state is a sort of "sideline" business.

As far as a VC dealer, they went out of business last year and one of the local dealerships is trying to pick up the line but has never sold or serviced a VC stove.  (They are an exclusive quad dealer).  The owner did'nt even know that the Defiant came in a non-cat model...(confidense killer!).

So, in essence, I may have NO dealer support in any circumstance.  *Can you now see why this is such a hard descision for me?*....lots and lots-0-wrenches thrown into the equasion!.

So, I'm almost embarrased at this point to ask once again, but now that you have ALL the criteria and info regarding dealer support etc....  what would you do?, and why?


----------



## stoveguy13 (May 30, 2007)

Buy a 5700


----------



## BrotherBart (May 30, 2007)

If it is between the two, I would buy the PE stove from chimneysweeponline. Finding a dealerthat will ship a stove and stand behind it is tough to do since the manufacturers as good as forbid the practice. Tom has a steller reputation in the business as far as I know and should take good care of you. I don't agree with him on everything but he has been in the business a looooong time.

Of course the real answer is that if it was me I would go down to the ACE Hardware store in Flagstaff and get them to get me an Englander 30-NCL on the way. But that is just me. I have no interest in who buys what. I just know that I still believe mine would heat Texas Stadium. And if Mike would ever get me an answer on a question about the baffle I would be a completely contented camper.

You talk like people promoting the perceived advantages of their stoves is an argument. Not so. People like the stoves they have,  be it cat, non-cat or some variation like the Everburn stoves. I could happily light off a cat stove and love it. I just happen to have a non-cat stove and a warm house. And fifteen hundred bucks left over in my pocket.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 30, 2007)

Stoveguyand Brother bart:

Both of you havesuggested  incredible stoves, I checked them both out thoroughly; however, don't forget about "the wife" factor!.  She sais, if I want her participation in this endeavor, she wants a stove that is not only capable, but aesthetically pleasing as well.

She is a big part of our descision as she helps me out a lot since I have severe chronic Lyme disease and at times, can have some trouble moving...(Hence the new Polaris Ranger and soon to purchase log spliter).

The quad 5700 is nothing short of a monster, but the wife does'nt like the "double wide" look.  She not super keen on the ncl-30 either even though that is only based on appearance.  So, I HAVE to stay with the current list!


----------



## BrotherBart (May 30, 2007)

Never suggested otherwise. Sleeping on the couch is only good when you WANT to sleep on the couch to watch the fire.

What I am saying is that you have narrowed it down to two stoves that please "the eye of the beholder", are both top notch heaters and now you only have to decide which support you are most comfortable with. Which in this case is going to be slim and none. But given the less than small odds that you will need much in the way of support it ain't no thang.

As far as which is the best stove, either one will have you back here next year as an evangelist for the "best wood stove ever made" and whacking yourself on the back for such a smart decision. Go with the Defiant and you and Elk will drive us crazy. Go with the Alderlea and you, Roospike and Gunner will drive us nuts.

We are big boys. We can take it. We all know that our stoves are the best.


----------



## stoveguy13 (May 30, 2007)

well i think it comes down to this flip the coin and when you and your wife love the stove you say see what a smart decision i made and if you both hate it for some reason you ca see honey i told you we should have bought the 5700 even though you dont like the way it looks so grab that coin and toss it up and tell us what it lands on heads vc tails pe


----------



## Highbeam (May 30, 2007)

In the abscence of a good dealer you will be forced to lean upon a good manufacturer. Shouldn't take long to find a report on customer service from the manufacturers chosen.  

Expect the unexpected and expect to have to deal with a warranty issue without a dealer. Which company responds? Which one simply throws you to a dealerthat isn't there. Give them a call and see if a person answers or how long it takes to get a real person and if the real person is willing to answer your questions.

I really like the looks and specs on the cat defiant. I would really like thermostatic air control. I don't like glowing stoves or nonresponsive manufacturers.

I also like the looks of the summit classic in black with nickel.


----------



## begreen (May 30, 2007)

No one has said the Defiant cat has to run red-hot. All wood stoves should be run hot enough to ensure clean combustion. A 500+ degree stovetop is normal operating temp for most stoves. If you want less heat, burn a smaller, hot  fire and let it go out. You don't have to use the cat 100% of the time. 

OK, given the very narrow matrix of choices, I'm going to go along with Bart, not that I think the Defiant isn't a good stove. But given the lack of dealer and/or user experience, I think keeping it as simple as possible narrows it down to one stove - PE Summit. If you don't feel good about the AZ dealer, by all means get it from Tom. 

Of course, if you're really hankering for a Mansfield, you could let the wife burn in the stone monolith that's already there for a season. After a few months of trying to heat the place with the open fireplace she'll be ready for a barrel stove. ;-)


----------



## elkimmeg (May 30, 2007)

I think you have to set realistic goals.   Any stove purchased with a fire box size over 3 cu ft, is going to make a dent in your heat demand.   Many of us struggle keeping up when it is very windy and below zero.  So what if It can't carry the full load under extreme conditions It still is reducing the load and saving fossil fuel.   I think we all win if a stove can carry the full load down to 10 above which for most is the large % of time.  The other factors I don't burn pine for overnights mine is hard wood. So I can't tell you for sure your burn times with any stove.  I have burned many other stoves than the current two cat stoves. I have not burned a PE Summit so I can not tell you or make a fair comparison. What I can tell you is the my cat stoves replaced similar sized non cat stoves and I achieve longer even productive burns.  I like to tell you I can control the stoves but for once they pretty much take care of that themselves with very little input from me or Ellen ( my wife) It is she that enjoys their operations.

 She never touched them before I introduced top loading. Could not be bothered.  IT started out that she gets up before me and if I leave a couple of splits she would load them.  Usually there was a decent bed of glowing coals so she engaged the cat right after loading.  One can do that witha hot stove over 500 surface and a good bed of coals. You do not need to leave the cat open let it catch then engage it. All this comes with experimenting and practice. A learning curve all stove owners go through.


No two stoves will act the same,  all are vented differently at various elevations.   Sometimes you have to go with your gut reaction purchase a stove and hope you can control it correctly and it handles the task at hand. 

Dealer wise, so many here can walk you threw replacing a gasket.  Many here can  trouble shoot operational glitzes.

And if you get a VC product that you have issues with  air them out here. It seems they do get resolved.

I know for a fact VC monitors this forum. and we have had a reply from the head of engineering concerning the Everburn issues. then again you also might not need us with any issues. Not all stoves arrive defective. In fact very few be it Quads or Harmans.  I must say all PE members seem very satisfied.  No doubt a quality stove. as are most major manufactures.

Honestly in your situation I think a cat stove has an operational range that others may not. That does not mean with time you can learn to work any stove optimally How to load how many splits larger splits for overnight or longer burning. All things you have to experience for yourself. Part wise VC does have the best inventory. All made here in USA ( cast stoves only)

 and if you have a little mechanical ability most replacements can be done by you. Last year we had about a dozen members rebuild older VC stoves. Most were helped by forum members and walked through the process.  So there is a lot of background you can draw from plus parts dealers advertise right on the Hearth.com

 Either stove will turn out to be a quality purchase. Were not talking Vogalzang here.

 For me now it time to golf


----------



## Todd (May 30, 2007)

scotty said:
			
		

> Hunk, I'm not sure that you ever got an answer to that question. Part of the reason lies in history.The short answer is that in the days pre-EPA there were no catalytic stoves and yes, at that time  you could turn any airtight (that's what the term "airtight" meant) stove down to smolder all night. At that time the debate was between airtights and non-airtight stoves!! Turning them down also made lots of smoke and fouled the chimney terribly. Creosote coated pipes were a major problem. So along comes EPA. Now stoves burn lots hotter. Lots hotter. No you can't turn them down to smolder all night anymore.  Neither the cat nor the non-cat has an an "idle" setting on it. The operator cannot close the air draft down like on an airtight stove. That is why all stoves now have minimum square footage specified. Compared with old type wood stoves like the pre EPA Vermont Castings - the new ones are going put out heat whether you want it to or not. In effect, we are back to the old "airtight versus non-airtight" argument of the 1960s.
> 
> an old timer  -   Scotty



This is not true of cat stoves. Most cat stoves are air tight and were made to operate just like the old pre epa stoves but much better. The difference is they have a way (catalyst) to burn all that smoke and prevent the creosote. I know mine has 1 air control and can be completely shut off and the cat will continue to burn even with no visible flames and a smouldering fire, while all that comes out of the chimney is white steam or heat waves.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 30, 2007)

Todd said:
			
		

> This is not true of cat stoves. Most cat stoves are air tight and were made to operate just like the old pre epa stoves but much better. The difference is they have a way (catalyst) to burn all that smoke and prevent the creosote. I know mine has 1 air control and can be completely shut off and the cat will continue to burn even with no visible flames and a smouldering fire, while all that comes out of the chimney is white steam or heat waves.



Whoa Todd. Daddy was a Baptist preacher so I bought into Immaculate Conception but I can't sign onto anaerobic wood burning. That stuff is getting air somewhere or cat or no cat burning ain't gonna happen.

BTW: How's the lake?


----------



## Todd (May 31, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yah, your right , I should of said "almost" air tight. Sorry. My air intake is a metal slide type and closes all the way, and is by no means completely gasketed for air tightness. Just one control, not a second seperate secondary air inlet that is non-controllable by the operator like most non cats I know of. So they hold a fire similar to the older so called air tight pre EPA stoves, but are cleaner and more efficient.

BTW: The lake is great, alittle rough lately, but the Walleye's have been biting.


----------



## scotty (May 31, 2007)

Yep, at the time the airtights first came out, the defining thing about them was that if you closed the air intake the fire would go out. Of course there are a whole number of reasons why you wouldn't want to do that...but that's how we used to tell an airtight from a non-airtight stove. In fact, VC brought out the first really good airtights when they first started, and I can remember that when the catalytics came out we were sure comfused trying to figure out how the new air controls worked. 

I like the VC's - both cats and non cats....admittedly all wood stoves are cult items and VC more than most. To my eye the VC defines the right "look". And they top load. Poking around inside of them they certainly appear well made with good fits and the bolted gasket construction. If the local dealer would guarantee it and stand behind the product  I would certainly have bought one for our new house. VC is always a good place to start. 
         Scotty


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 31, 2007)

Everyone:

First off, I really want to thank everyone who put so much time and really good information into their suggestions and replies.  I feel very confident that many of us could make a very good case to support either brand that I have mentioned but it's time to make a final choice.

There is a few iteams that I want to mention that just "stick-out" which determined our final descision.

To start, I can't help but remember a comment made by Brother Bart in which he sais "think long, think wrong".  His poker playing rules to live by and I could'nt agree more.  From the very begining, both my wife and I absolutely fell in love with the VC Defiant stove.  It's only after reading numerous negative reviews that got us very concerned.

On the principal that you never really hear about the plane that landed safely, I would tend to agree that many of the VC complaints are generated by a very small percentage of the overall users and owners.  If the VC product was really that bad, it simply would not exist anymore.

Secondly, if I were replying to this thread as somebody else (besides myself), I would probably say something like "that home was made for a Defiant", the looks and setting is ideal. If that stove could not work in your house, then where could it work??!.

As far as performance goes, it was Seakens reply that really made me wake up and realize that by burning primarily pine, I would want a stove that is designed to burn off as much gases as possible, thereby minimizing the amount of creosote buildup that pine is famous for.   It seems that the "cat" Defiant was made exactly to fit this bill.

As far as the stoves "specs" go, many members have said to throw the performance specs out the window as they are just fudged anyway. Instead, simply buy the largest firebox you can find to generate the most heat and longest burn times.   To honor those suggestions, I will be doing so as the Defiant has the largest firebox with approx 3.3 cubic feet.

As far as maintainence goes, what I really want is the best "performing" stove (of the ones on the approved list!).  Periodic maintainence does not scare me at the least and I am very willing to re-seal gaskets, cement and replace the cat as needed.  I would rather have a good performing stove that requires more maintainence than a lesser performing stove that requires no maintainence.  

As far as "cuting edge" technology goes, the thermostatically controlled temp setting (air control) is only found of the Defiant and several members have said that this is a really nice feature.

As far as convienience goes, the Defiant has both double front doors AND the much desired top loading feature.  While I am still somewhat young (early 40's) and in very good physical shape (former competitive athlete), and of course, extremely handsome to boot!!, I do have a mild-to severe problem with my joints on a fairly regular basis (chronic Lyme disease), and as a result, bending down on my knees can sometimes be very agravating to say the least.  The top loading feature may be a blessing in disguise!.

As far as aesthetics as well as the "nookey factor"!, the Defiant suits this bill easily the best as it is not only the best looking stove IMO, but Mrs Hunky and I can also cuddle in front of the open double doors using a factory sparkscreen and listen to the crackling wood being burned.  this can only lead to even better things!

As far as dealer support goes, we do (or will) have a new VC dealer locally. Although the line is brand new to them and they have never installed one yet, I can only hope that it is better to have a local dealerthan none at all.  Besides, one thing I forgot to mention before, I MUST have a certified stove installer install our new stove for our home insurance to insure the home. They will NOT allow a self install and that would void our insurance policy should we ever have a claim.

In essence, after an almost ridiculous amount of research, I truly believe that the VC Defiant stove is the right choice for us.  It has a very user friendly ash pan with covered lid removal system.  It has the largest sized "cat" firebox out there, it has the handy top loading feature many have come to love. It has the state of the art thermostatically controlled air setting, and is technically the best designed stove to more thoroughly burn more of the gases (the cat version) to help minimize the creosote buildup in the pipe.

All in all, this was a very informative learning experience for me and possibly others as well.  It may be a while before we actually have the stove installed as I first need to build an approved hearth for it, but as soon as its in, I'll be sure to post up plenty of pics as well as give in depth ongoing performance reviews.

Again, thanks to everyone for their honest and sometimes "spirited" comments and replies.  The information I have received on this forum is absolutely invaluable and the members that comprise it all deserve a very sincere "thank you".

The VC Defiant "cat" is what we chose and deep down, I feel very relieved!. I don't know why (I mean its not like were buying a house or an expensive luxory car or something!), its just that I really became very interested in wood burning stoves and my curiosity may have run amuck a little!.  Oh well, I guess thats a good thing but who knows!.  at least I now know where to go should I have any more questions about operating my new stove properly.  I think I may owe many people a favour and hopefully I can one day return it in someway.

Thanks again everyone.
S-H


----------



## Gooserider (May 31, 2007)

Congratulations on reaching a decision!  May your new stove burn long, hot, and (of course) Defiantly!  (had to get that one in there...)  

I think your reasoning makes good sense, though I'd be tempted to look for a new insurance co.  (Wanting to have the install inspected is one thing, but it doesn't seem reasonable to me for them to prohibit a self-install.  As a hard-core DIY guy, that kind of rule offends me....)

Gooserider


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 31, 2007)

I agree Goose, but that is Farmers policy.  Having a log home dripping in linseed oil in the forrest within the trees is a tough cookie to insure around here!. Not many options as many insurance companies won't even insure us!.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 31, 2007)

Good choice and you went through the decision process well. Just as a footnote, and before the PE guys rise up, it should be noted that the Summit EBT (Extended Burn Technology) is also a thermostatically controlled air intake system.

Enjoy putting it all together and keep us posted.


----------



## Gunner (May 31, 2007)

You made a good choice.

I love my Summit... but a 30' stack and burning pine 24/7 + being undersized for the application kept me from banging the PE drum this time.  The cat may perform better with the tall stack, it's hard to say, there is not alot of feedback from people with 30 ft of chimney.

Good Luck and enjoy the stove.

P.S As you prepare you seeming never ending supply of wood for your first year, make sure you don't split your stuff too small.  Split size and loading it tight will help when burning pine.

Are you going with a 6 or 8" chimney?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 31, 2007)

Oh yea, Goose and others:

One more thing. In doing my research, I checked very carefully into all the mfg's warranty  (fine print).  If I recall corrrectly, I don't remember A SINGLE mfg that would not *void* the warranty if the stove was not installed by an "authorized so and so brand installer"!.

I.e, anyone who has a new stove and installed it themselves, from what I have read....you will NOT be covered under any warranty as it is void!.

Don't shoot the messanger here, I'm just letting everyone know what I read.  For positive clarification, DO NOT TAKE THE WORD OF ANYONE, EVEN YOUR DEALER!!.  Why?, because I had several stove dealers tell me that I could install the stove myself, as long as it met with all the local city/county codes and passed inspection.  While this would *seem* to make sense, it's NOT true!.

I had contacted a Lopi rep directly for further clarification and he said any warranty claim will only be honored based on the WRITTEN warrantee/guarantee that came with the stove at the time of purchase.

Their warrantee clearly states that an *authorized* lopi installer must install the stove in order for the warrantee to be upheld.  I had found this to be the case with almost every single mfg as well...

Don't be sorry, read the warrantee fine print!!


----------



## BrotherBart (May 31, 2007)

Read the warranties again SH. Virtually every stove warranty says it must be installed by a "qualified" installer not an "authorized" one and that it is to be installed per the installation instructions in the manual. As does Lopi.

Since building inspectors use the stove manual for inspection purposes you have a document in your hand, the permit sign off, attesting to it being installed per the manual.

Anyway, improperly installing a stove is going to burn down your house before it hurts the stove. It is operation error that screws up stoves. That is why they all have the overfiring disclaimers in the warranties.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (May 31, 2007)

Okay Bart my Brother: I read the warrnties (avail for anyone online), and they differ slightly from brand to brand. One thing I noticed is that on say VC, it clearly states that "any and all warraties are void if repaired by anyone other than an authorized VC s dealer".

It does'nt seem to mention anything about the installation (or at least I can't find VC installation warranty on the web site), but it seems they do not want you to repair anything.

"grey" areaz to say the least.


----------



## Gooserider (May 31, 2007)

Well a properly done repair shouldn't be obvious, so if you repaired it yourself and did it right, then the question never comes up.  If you did a hack job that caused other problems then the "authorized dealer" language keeps you from sticking it to them for problems that weren't really their fault...  This sort of thing isn't all that uncommon, I suspect you would find it in just about any product, especially those without a large network of non-dealer repair facilities.  Even cars have language requiring you to be able to document maintainance and the like, most of the time they don't raise the issue, but will if you come in with a problem possibly due to bad repairs or lack of care.
The "authorized dealer" routine also gives them a filter that the dealer has looked at the problem and thought it rated a call to the warranty dept., and not a customer that had abused the stove or just has a routine, non-warranty item.

Heck, we've even had VC suggest that customers do their own warranty repairs, including welding on a firebox!

In general, while I wouldn't ignore the "weasel language" it isn't a big issue.  If you have a genuine warrantee problem, and not a failure caused by misuse, the mfgr will honor it regardless - if the warranty item is questionable, it gives them grounds to refuse.

Many years ago I was involved in such a situation from the service end.  I was working as a wrench in a store that did outdoor power equipment (among other things).  A customer brought in a tiller, with three days left on the engine warranty, saying the engine was locked up.  As I was dismantling, I found the air filter was packed solid with dirt (I had trouble getting the cover off, it was so tight) and the oil was black and gritty.  All parts were severely worn, and the engine was locked because it had snapped the con-rod big end.  We refused the warranty on the grounds of abuse / lack of maintainance.  We were backed by the engine distributor rep, who said that if he turned the claim in at the factory the engine would get blown back to him by the laughter...  We had a hard time explaining this to the customer, but finally got the point across.  In the interest of good relations, we did end up selling him a new motor at our cost, plus a couple hours labor - 30 minutes or so of which I spent on doing a demo of how to clean the air filter and perform other maintainance.

Clearly this wasn't a legitimate warrantable  "defect in materials or manufacture", but it was the "weasel language" that saved us a major hassle in dealing with the problem.

Gooserider


----------



## Highbeam (May 31, 2007)

Don't sweat the standard fine print. You don't have a choice in the matter if you want the stove. When you signed up for the constrution loan to build your house, or maybe to buy your first house, didn't you have to sign about 30 pages of fine print? Did you read, scrutinize, and try and change every little thing that seemed queer? Of course not.


----------



## restorer (Jun 1, 2007)

My other side just rose to the top. Can we talk about the Linseed Oil? Is it a done deal. I have some real short and long term concerns. If you want to talk privately, PM me.
UncRich


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 1, 2007)

Uncle rich:

It's actually "superdeck" log home oil.  "Pure" linseed oil is WAY to combustable; ask me how I know that


----------



## restorer (Jun 1, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> Uncle rich:
> 
> It's actually "superdeck" log home oil.  "Pure" linseed oil is WAY to combustable; ask me how I know that



Wheww, don't need to ask... You are obviously aware of the fire potential. Remember it doesn't go away, but also the fact that it really isn't a preservative. Brings a whole new meaning to micro-biological-deterioration. We won't scare the crap out of the rest of the readers.


----------



## Gunner (Jun 1, 2007)

Now that you have decided on the stove, what about the most important element... the chimney.

6" or 8"? damper or no damper?

I guess it's all going to be double wall with 25' inside the envelope.

What does your local "New to VC" Dealerthink? He will be installing, right?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 1, 2007)

Hi Gunner:

I may take Seaken's advice and go with the 8'' pipe. It will be Simpson "duratech".  I really don't know if I need 8'' or if the 6'' will be fine as we will have 30' of piping.

We may have a natural overdraft scenario and the 8'' pipe may make that worse (incresed airflow), but I really don't know.....do you?? or anyone?.

VC sais if you use the Defiant with the doors open, that you must use 8'' piping. I am assuming that they say this because of a potential smoke in the romm problem if you don't have enough draft.  Since I think we will have a super draft, I may not need the 8'' pipe.  My "thinking" is just that. I don't know if what I am assuming is true; hopefully others can inform me of the facts.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jun 1, 2007)

At 7600 feet your concern is going to be having enough draft. Not too much. VC recommends a minimum chimney height of 25' at that elevation for the Defiant with 6" adapter. One of my stoves is on a 30 foot pipe and the other two on 25' at twenty-five feet above sea level and just exhibit a little over drafting. At 7600 feet you are going to be praying for draft, not trying to avoid it.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 1, 2007)

Bart:

This is good info as I had no idea that elevation had anything to do with proper draft.  I just thought that by having a 30'+ pipe that I would have a powerful draft but did not realize that elevation had anything to do with it; thanks for the tip.

So, if you think my draft will be weak (due to the elevation), should I put in the 8'' pipe instead of 6''?


----------



## BrotherBart (Jun 1, 2007)

I will let the scientific types among us detail the effect, but a general rule of thumb is to increase chimney height 2-3% for each thousand feet of elevation to offset the effect of the lower density of the air. Yours will be helped by the fact that most of it will be inside the building envelope and stay relatively warm while you are burning. 

Were it me I would do the eight inch pipe for open door fires. Of course everybody starts out wanting open door fires and most do it a couple of times and then blow it off and just keep the glass clean. On my 30-NC the view of the fire is virtually the same with the door open or closed. On my old stove I burned open door three times in 21 years. You will have somewhat less viewing area with the double door design of the Defiant and the cute little iron thingies in front of the glass.

That pipe is gonna cost a fortune.


----------



## begreen (Jun 1, 2007)

Now that you've picked out the stove, download the manual from the VC website. It has detailed installation instructions and a nice graph that shows the effect of altitude on draft.


----------



## Corie (Jun 1, 2007)

Yeah unfortunately eight inch pipe is EXPENSIVE, although Duravent is significantly cheaper than some other brands.


Eight inch is also a little heavier too, making it all that much more fun to install.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 2, 2007)

BeGreen:

I downloaded the VC manual and according to fig 2., the proper height of chimney for 7600 ft is 25'.  (we will be at 30').  It further explains that to large of a chimney (in diameter) will cause rapid heat loss and so it seems that the 6'' pipe may be a better choice??.  Am I right?


----------



## Corie (Jun 2, 2007)

Yes, you'll have less heat loss from a 6 inch chimney based on surface area, since all other parts of the heat transfer equation would remain essentially equal between the two pipe diameters.  As long as the volume of gas isn't choked by the 6 inch flue (and the manual indicated it isn't), its probably a better choice.  Plus its cheaper.


Of course when the manual is speaking about large chimney cross-sections, they're really talking about venting the stove into something like an 8x12 masonary flue, not the differences between the 6 and 8 inch flue.


----------



## begreen (Jun 2, 2007)

The graph shows 6" flue performance. There isn't one for 8". So far I'm with Bart on this one, but Corie is the engineer. Corie, are your heat loss equations for double or single wall pipe?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 2, 2007)

corrie/Begreen:

I'm a little confused (which, for a newbie is par for the course!).  I want to do what is right....the first time!.  I can see how a larger diameter pipe will allow for more air flow (via less restriction), however, according to VC charts, a 6'' pipe at 7600 ft elevation should be 25'.  Here's what I don't understand.  If, according to the VC elev chart, 7600 ft should be 25' stack based on using a 6'' pipe; ....since we are using a 30' pipe (double wall simpson duratech), does that mean that we are *better* since we are 5' more than 25'?, or does that mean that we are *worse* because we are 5' over 25'?.

Sorry for the technical questions but is anyone wanting a challenge??.  I'm clueless!.


----------



## begreen (Jun 2, 2007)

It's almost always better to be on the too much pipe side of the equation for a well behaved stove. Reducing draft with a damper is easy and cheap. Increasing draft can be a bigger problem.

But I still want to wait for the engineer's heat loss calcs for 8" double wall pipe at 7600 ft. to see where that comes out.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 2, 2007)

buster:

The "heat loss" that you are referring to may be misunderstood from my description so I' will try to describe it clearer.

The mfg sais that the temp of the air/gases rising up the pipe may actuallt be *cooler* using a 8'' pipe as opposed to a 6'' pipe.  This is simply due to the larger volume of air space to now keep heated.

I am trying to "read between the lines" on a lot of info and it can get confusing to say the least!.   Since we will be burning primarily pine (creosote), I want to keep the pipe as hot as possible in order to prevent the creosote from precipitating onto the walls of the pipe due to cooler temps which a larger diameteripe may cause.

At the same time, I also want to install the proper size piping diameter for a 30' height to get optimal drafting.

According to the VC elevation diagram using 6'' pipe, 7600 feet should be around 25' of pipe; but we have 30.  To compensate for the difference, I am trying to find out if I should go with a larger pipe (8) and possibly have cooler pipe temps, or should I stick with the 6''.

Anyone know how drafting plays into this??


----------



## MountainStoveGuy (Jun 2, 2007)

Pine doenst contain any more creosote then any other wood, how wood is  seasoned is what determins the creosote buildup in the chimney. Pine, IMO has less chance of creosote buildup due to the low density and a high combustion rate. 

Stick with the 6". 8" chimney is more forgiving at your altitude then someone at sea level, but your stove will perform better on a 6 inch flue. 30' is plenty of pipe for 6", i would be afraid of overdrafting the stove on 8". I have 24', 6"  chimney at 9000' and my stove drafts perfectly. Remember, manufactures are going to be conservative with there recomendations.

My last point would be that most modern stoves run on 6" flues,  the trend seems to be going to smaller flues with every new generation of stove. When your stove wears out, i think you would be better prepared for a replacemnet with a 6" chimney in place, who knows, in 10 years the standard might be 5...

here is a quote from http://www.mastersweep.com/wood.htm

"Back in the early 1980's, tests were conducted to discover which kind of wood created the most creosote in a regular "open" fireplace. The results were surprising. Contrary to popular opinion, the hardwood's, like oak and madrone, created MORE creosote than the softwoods, like fir and pine. The reason for this, is that if the softwoods are dry, they create a hotter, more intense fire. The draft created by the hotter fire moves the air up the chimney faster! Because it is moving faster, the flue gas does not have as much time to condense as creosote inside the chimney. Also, because the flue gas is hotter: it does not cool down to the condensation point as quickly. On the contrary, the dense hardwood's tend to smolder more, so their flue gas temperature is cooler. Thus, more creosote is able to condense on the surface of the flue. So, saying that "fir builds up more creosote than oak" just isn't true! It is a misunderstanding to think that it's the pitch in wood which causes creosote. It's not the pitch that is the problem, it's the water IN the pitch. Once the water in the wood has evaporated, that pitch becomes high octane fuel! When dry, softwoods burn extremely hot! "


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 2, 2007)

WOW MountainStoveGuy!!   What an enlightening response; you truly made my day!...really

If what you are saying is true..(and it makes perfect sense to me, rationally), this could possibly change a lot of peoples minds on what type of wood to burn.

Although pine will burn much, much quicker, if the fuel is free and in plentiful supply all over your property (like mine), who can pass up free fuel!!

I know it will take a LOT more wood, and a LOT more splitting (excuse for a nice log splitter!!), but my biggest concern was clogging up a new "cat" stove with crud as well as crudding up the chimney very fast.

Now that I understand that a hotter fire is a cleaner fire (creosote wise)......and of course using seasoned wood, I feel much much better about burning pine in a new stove.

Thanks for the info, you really made my day!!


----------



## MountainStoveGuy (Jun 3, 2007)

Actually pine grown at our elevations have much more density then pine grown at sea level. I burn about as much pine as our hardwood burners here burn in a given season. When i fill my non cat up with a load of wood i get at least 7 hours and more commony 8-10 hours on a burn cycle. I burn 4 cords a year to heat ~ 2000 square feet home with good insulation at 9000' feet. Not bad. You will get longer results with the cat stove, you just have to carefully watch the cat temp before you engage it.
Glad i could help!
MSG


----------



## BrotherBart (Jun 3, 2007)

Even though most of my property is red and white oak I burn a cord or so of Eastern yellow pine every year. In fact that is all that I will be burning in the Jotul in the office this year. Two cords are stacked and ready to go and I will be adding another cord or two this month. To go along with the five cords of oak.


----------



## Corie (Jun 3, 2007)

Back to the heat loss stuff for just a second.  Using simple radial one-dimensional heat flow, assuming the inner temperature of the flue is the same, the insulation is the same, etc etc, you're going to lose more heat with an 8 inch pipe because it has a large external surface exposed to the cooler air.  Also, an eight inch chimney will have a larger inner surface area but the flue gases will still contain roughly the same heat and you'll end up with that heat spread over a larger inner area on top of what I already mentioned.


I can do the calculations for real with the two pipe sizes if you guys would really like to see the math.  Using fourier's law and the simple approach above gives a pretty good idea of the difference based on the increased external area.


The ONLY way I can see that the 8 inch pipe might present less heat loss is if the velocity dropped significantly below that of the 6 inch pipe.  Then you could use the formula q (heat loss) = md * cp * (Tpipeoutlet - Tpipeinlet) and you'd see a decrease in heat loss IF the exit temperature of the gases was the same between 8 inch and 6 inch, which I doubt would be true.


I guess I'm just beating around the same bush with that.  Ultimately an 8 inch pipe will lose more heat when compared to an identical 6 inch pipe.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jun 3, 2007)

He may be alright with the six inch for open door burning. I know that I burn the F3 sometimes with a screen and the 5.5 inch 30 footer with no problem. Usually over a bottle of an impertinet little cabernet after the tax return is put to bed in April.

But it ain't trying to move anywhere near the air volume of an open door Defiant up the pipe.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 3, 2007)

[quote author="Corie" date="1180844871

I guess I'm just beating around the same bush with that.  Ultimately an 8 inch pipe will lose more heat when compared to an identical 6 inch pipe.[/quote]


Thanks corie for the detailed explanation.  This is all good news as the 8'' pipe would have beed a lot more cash-o-la!  Cheaper pipe that stays warmer (preventing creosote build up) works for me!


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 3, 2007)

Bart:

I think we should have enough air due to the volume of area we have as well as the house having numerous air leaks and venting......I hope!


----------



## Todd (Jun 3, 2007)

I think you will be fine with 6". If it was me , I'd go with the 6", just because you have a 30' chimney. I have 22' with a 5.5 " liner, and when it gets really cold I think it drafts too good sometimes.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 3, 2007)

BTW:

Now that I've got the stove picked out and the pipe size..(6''), I have been told that the best brand of pipe is simpson "duratech" as opposed to their other line.  Is it worth the extra money? or is all chimney pipe basically the same?


----------



## begreen (Jun 3, 2007)

Simpson Dura-Vent is the company, DuraTech is the all fuel pipe system. Folks use the name interchangeably, but DuraTech is correct for the pipe. This is the same piping system we have installed. If you want to decode all the pieces, they have an online catalogue posted. 

http://www.duravent.com/?page=1.php


----------



## Corie (Jun 3, 2007)

I'd spend the money on the Dura-Tech.  Besides it isn't really that expensive in the world of chimney products; I can think of quite a few other insulated brands that are as expensive or worse.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 3, 2007)

Thanks for the simpson link BeGreen.


----------



## RonB (Jun 4, 2007)

Hi MSG.  I'm confused.  Why would 30' of 8" draft better than 30' of 6".


----------



## restorer (Jun 4, 2007)

I am really confused, are we at the point of green paint drafts better than blue paint? Volume of air is a basic fact of moving air. If you need to move a lot of air, the bigger the tube the more air you move. In a stove if you move too much, you over burn (that's too fast, too hot). If you want efficiency you use the draft appropriate to the burn. That translates to the engine determines the size of the exhaust, not the huge exhaust needs an even bigger engine to work effectively. Regardless of profession or trade, if you move air you should understand the importance of having the right size flue for the source of the exhaust air. If you are too large in flue, you will not have adequate pressure to move your exhaust out. The best is the level of pressure that maximizes the movement of air, at the same time you don't want a ram jet to make the stack the place your fuel burns.

All that said, has anyone seen anything about the actual temperature of a stove, or fuel source during a chimney fire??? My guess is it is less than the ambient temperature?


----------



## scotty (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm an engineer and I'm not comfortable with VC's chart on chimney height versus altitude. It would be helpful to see how they arrived at their calculations.
    Hoping we can look into this a bit farther.....        Scotty


----------



## stoveguy13 (Jun 4, 2007)

are you talking about draft because draft is not thwe same thing as moving air threw duct work unless you have some sort of power vent hooked up moving the exhuast out of the stove is a function of the chimney that is created by tempeture dif. that is what creates draft and the a lareg pipe will not increas draft in alot of cases it will acctually lessen draft as the gas will cool quicker as they expand i belive corrie stated this before and he is dead on.


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 4, 2007)

So, {Banging head against wall in confusion!},  According to VC chart re pipe sizing, 7600 elevation using 6'' pipe should be 25'.  So here's the brazillion dollar question:

Since our height is 30'  (5' more than VC chart), would that make our performance using 6''pipe:

a.) Better
b.) Worse
c.) No significant difference
d.) Who cares, move on!


----------



## Gooserider (Jun 4, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> So, {Banging head against wall in confusion!},  According to VC chart re pipe sizing, 7600 elevation using 6'' pipe should be 25'.  So here's the brazillion dollar question:
> 
> Since our height is 30'  (5' more than VC chart), would that make our performance using 6''pipe:
> 
> ...



I believe if you look at that VC chart, it is clearly labeled as MINIMUM height at a given altitude, or the shortest pipe that their engineers think will perform well in all conditions (note that some folks do get away with shorter pipes, that graph incorporates the usual degree of "engineer conservative margins")

In theory, draft tends to improve with increased stack height, so your 5' taller stack should have more draft.  

Part of what drives a chimney's draft is that the air entering it is expanding due to stove heat, and the longer the air stays hot the more effectively you will draft, so having most of your chimney inside will also improve the draft. 

That your location has a significant amount of wind may also improve your draft when the wind is blowing.

So I'd expect that you will have very good draft with 6" pipe, but not so much so as to be totally exceptional.

Gooserider


----------



## Highbeam (Jun 4, 2007)

So did you measure your 30' chimney height from the bottom of the firebox or from the top of the stove or from the floor below the stove?


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 4, 2007)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> So did you measure your 30' chimney height from the bottom of the firebox or from the top of the stove or from the floor below the stove?




highbeam:  The 30' height is from the floor to the top of the ceiling. An addl 4-5 feet will go on top (outside) the roof to meet code.  I went ahead and subtracted 5 feet fro the equasion as the piping will start from the top of the stove, not the bottom of the floor.


----------



## scotty (Jun 5, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> So, {Banging head against wall in confusion!},  According to VC chart re pipe sizing, 7600 elevation using 6'' pipe should be 25'.  So here's the brazillion dollar question:
> 
> Since our height is 30'  (5' more than VC chart), would that make our performance using 6''pipe:
> 
> ...



     Hey! Careful of the wall! The answer is that as long as the smoke stays hot, the longer the pipe; the greater the draft. I believe you are calling that increase in draft "better" - although what some of us are saying is that with a vertical stack and insulated pipe for the full run then it might be too much of a good thing.  By "draft" we mean the quantity of mass that goes past a certain point in a certain period of time. That is "mass flow" - often written as a small letter "m" with a single dot over it and pronounced "m dot". Think of it as the velocity of a mass of fluid. In this case the fluid is smoky air. Smokestacks are pretty mudh of a science rather than an art  or opinion.  Since smokestacks are expensive as well as important then much is known about how to build them. Since you have defined the pipe so well, VC should be able to give you an exact answer; I would not depend on the altitude versus pipe length installation graph for your answer.  
   I think you have chosen the right stove. The pipe is just as important. 
               Scotty


----------



## MountainStoveGuy (Jun 5, 2007)

A 8 inch chimney will draft stronger once its hot, getting it hot is more difficult at first, but once it gets hot it has more volume of hot air in side of the chimney, and it pulls harder. This is not what you want,. You dont want to much draft and you dont want to llitle draft. To much draft sucks alot of the combustion gasses right out of the stove before the stove gets a chance to burn them. You want just the right amout of chimney, if your stuck with a a 30' chimney, no way in hell would i install 8".


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 5, 2007)

[quote author="MountainStoveGuy"  if your stuck with a a 30' chimney, no way in hell would i install 8".[/quote]


Now this is the type of answer I am looking for!!.


----------



## bmstove.com (Jun 18, 2007)

I own an Isle Royale and it does an awesome job heating my 1940 constructed 2500 square foot uninsulated home. When it gets into the teens and single digit temperatures we compensate with the furnace in the mornings. The Isle Royale is a great stove. HOWEVER, if the Lopi Leyden had been on the market I would prefer it to the Isle Royale due to the top load limitation of the Isle Royale. If you have not buned one, you may not know what I mean. Anyone who has actually used an Isle Royale knows that when the secondary burn mechanics are turned up and out of the way of the top load door, the back half of the firebox in not accessible for loading. To really load the firebox, it must be done through the front door. 

For bigger homes and for those that can't live with the old-style feet ot the Hearthstone Mansfield, I am gonna suggest waiting on the new Equinox which is like an oversized heritage with the new styling and legs. I have been the southest dealer of the year for 2 years running and I know Hearthstone well. Yep, they have things slip by them and get into the market but I can also say that they are unmatched in eagerness to make these slips right. I am confident that the equinox is going to be a great addition to the Hearthstone lineup. Large stoves is nothing new to Hearthstone. The Mansfield was a downsized replacement to a huge stove that had become unpopular. Now we are in a 2 year trend of the big stove becoming more popular. In a couple of years you will see other companies trying to come up with their own Behemoth stoves.

When did Pacific Energy become synonymous with quality? I've not seen anything innovative or overly well built by them in my opinion.

If you're gonna be burning a lot of pine, you will want a huge firebox if you expect that thing to burn all night. You may even (did not hear it from me, LOL) want to put a lump of coal on your wood before going to bed in colder weather. For that you don't want a catalytic stove (and for the pine reasone; too risky). I have burned a coal/wood mix in my mahogany Isle Royale for 3 straight years and have no issues whatsoever. The enamel has not even crazed! I do not burn coal exclusively but have a time or two and used an additional grate to do so. 

For you square footage and open floorplan, you wont be disappointed in the Equinox. The energy off the stones is second to none and you can live close to the stove while it heats huge spaces. 

for  a 30+ foot chimney, I would go 6 inch for sure. That tall and insulated, you could probably add a 3" takeoff to the stove and have a central vacuum for cleaning the floors! 

Good luck.

Jack


----------



## Highbeam (Jun 18, 2007)

I would like to agree with BM Stove that when hearthstone had an assembly error on my stove that they were very eager to get it resolved. No unanswered emails and ignoring from the manufacturer or their dealer. Coal? Really?


----------



## bmstove.com (Jun 18, 2007)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Coal? Really?



In my big, old, drafty house I burn my isle Royale HOT all winter long and the fire never dies out. For a while I would get up at 2 or 3 am and reload the big beast so the fire would still be going in the morning and the house would not be too cool. This became a huge chore. As you know, in the winter there is no rest for the stove guy and I needed my sleep. I decided to see if I could extend my hot burn times by blending lump coal with my wood. I bought a lot of lump coal (coal which is in large chuncks and not crushed) and would lay a large chunk or two on top of my firewood at night. Once the firewood burned down the coal would continue to burn and would be resting atop the insulation of the wood coals and ash. This seemed to keep my integrated grate from being damaged from the high heat of the coal. Even with the stove burning on high burn, I could go to bed and 10 and get up the next morning with a few large glowing red lumps of coal. Throw in a batch of wood and the Isle Royale was back blazing again. A couple of times my wood supplier took too long getting to me and I actually stuck a secondary grate in the stove and burned coal exclusively for a coupld of days. No problems at all and the stove still works like new. We're preparing for our 4th winter and no a blemish on the stove. 

Coal actually burns quite clean after it ignites. Sure it smells and smokes while getting up to temp but shortly into the burn, coal is quite nice. The lazy orange flames are also hypnotizingly attractive. I like it quite a bit. 

Thanks for the input on hearthstone by the way. I think most if not all owners that had an issue would say the same. I don't mind saying that hearthstone has called me up to see what is taking me so long to make a warranty repair. Warranty appointments mid-season sometimes get shuffled with emergency calls. Hearthstone does not mind calling to "encourage" their dealers to make things right for them. It's what we're here for and they are as good as anyone at backing their warranty. I like dealing wtih them a lot. Even for Vermonters, they can be quite personal and pleasant (DID I SAY THAT OUT LOUD)! That comes from a funny I remember a few years back while I was at the HearthStone factory. I commented on how nice Vermont was and the local I was talking to quickly responded, "well, don't move here!"


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 18, 2007)

BMStove:

I really wished that Hearthstone made a *different* looking version of the Mansfield as everyone on this forum had highly suggested that the mighty Mansfield would be the ultimate "functional" choice.

Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I certainly don't want to offend anyone that owns a Mansfield.  From what I have read, it is an absolute dream of a stove to have and operate.   Unfortunately, between the "duck-feet", the stone only comming in grey, and the glossy enamel paint, Mrs Hunky would not give in due to its aesthetics.  She said it looked like it belonged in a Liberace museam.

Personally, I really like the victorian look of the Mansfield, but we have a rustic log home in which the victorian/colonial motiff sort of clashes.  Since there are other large stoves that can also heat our needs (that meet Mrs Hunkt's approval aesthetically), thats the route we have decided to take.

I have heard rumors of the "equinox", but even after numerous internet searches, I have come up empty.

If you have any info on this stove, I, as well as others would love to hear about it.  Timing may also be an issue as I must purchase and install whatever stove I buy no later than early fall..(September).

As far as the quality of a Pacific Energy stove, you may want to read the numerous reviews on this site and others.  I have yet to find a single owner who has not rated their PE stove as "excellent" and would buy it again or reccomend it to others.  (again, check out the reviews on this site!).

Thanks for your reply


----------



## bmstove.com (Jun 18, 2007)

Nor do I have anything negative to say about PE. They are a good product; just nothing outstanding as compared to their competitors. Their marketing scares me a little as I do not believe that their specs mate up with their claims unless their ideal house has 6 foot ceilings and is insulated with strawbales. I did not mean to give a negative impression on PE. I like them, really.

OK, as for the equinox, I am not sure I am at liberty to release an image but I will say if you look at the heritage wood stove and stretch it to about 30% wider, you would have a very good idea of the look of the Equinox. It is really attractive and should be quite the work-horse. And the best part, NO DUCK FEET! The Mansfield is the only stove left with the traditional style feet. The homestead still uses the traditional style door but has unuque feet that are much nicer. The equinox has the new style full-view door and also the side load like the heritage. I think someone mentioned this but we anticipate the Equinox to be between 100K and 120K BTU. sweeeeeeet. I already have a hearth cleaned off for an equinox here at the shop. I'm looking forward to putting it through its paces here this winter. 

The equinox is due to ship later this summer mid july to mid august. 


Jack


----------



## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 18, 2007)

Jack:

I understand your reluctance to release a photo of the equinox (that is if you have one), but I would really like to see it.  If you have a pic, could you possibly p.m me or direct me to a location where I could see it?.

I really doubt that Hearthstone would frown upon a potential sale!, and lets face it, all the "buzz" is certainly good for business.


----------



## bmstove.com (Jun 18, 2007)

I'll check in here in the morning. The only photo I have is a copy and is at the bank in a safe deposit box. JUST KIDDING AGAIN! 

yea, I have one at the store I can get to ya. It is a copy so I may have to fax it if you have a #. It is really nice. Like a big, wide heritage.

Jack


----------



## dtabor (Jun 20, 2007)

bmstove,

Hey, just getting to catch up on this post.....I take exception to your Vermonter comment hehe. I happen to live 10 miles from the Heartstone plant and I consider myself quite pleasant thank you very much.......Just have a problem with those flatlanders coming up here, clogging up our roads, driving like maniacs but we'll take their tourist money and put it in our economy (there are some that will buy a photo of a common holstein cow in a plain frame!! Its a VERMONT cow after all, they're different)...........hmmm, did I say that out loud??? hehe....jk, all in fun.

D


----------



## bmstove.com (Jun 21, 2007)

:bug: Gotcha bro. I really was just making a joke about that conversation I had up there. I love you all and your state is an awesome place to be for sure. Hope I can come back again soon and see what has changed, get me some of that Ben & Jerry's and go back home. I promise,   

Jack


----------



## dtabor (Jun 21, 2007)

Yep, knew you were joking, just had to get my own digs in at ya! The B&J plant is 9 miles from where Im sitting at this very moment. Thats the place to work if you dont watch your wieght. They can take home like a pint or more a day of the seconds. Dont forget the syrup when you go home

D


----------

