# Tiny Blue Flames natural gas stove



## earthwindfireplace (Nov 15, 2013)

Just moved into a house that has a NG Vermont Castings Radiance (no idea how old, but seems clean). 

Starting to get cold this time of year so went through the process of firing it up for the first time. Checked for leaks, fixed a section of dented vent pipe... lit pilot and that stayed on just fine... but once I light the flame I only get a tiny blue flame (turning the adjustment knob only has a very slight effect)

Flame's hard to photograph, but here's a try. 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/04arco3zg20qbvr/IMG_20131115_214334.jpg

So I'm a bit perplexed... not enough air?


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## BrotherBart (Nov 15, 2013)

One of our gas wizards is traveling but hopefully another will pop in with advice.


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 15, 2013)

Closer look without the logs... maybe just needs a good cleaning 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mabiieywes6gh06/IMG_20131115_225157.jpg


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 16, 2013)

Could it be low pressure? Looking at the meter there are four lines - a 3/4" pipe feeds a range and a hot water heater about 35ft away... then there's a dryer right near the meter (5ft) with 1/2" and there's a 1/2" split off of that dryer line running in the opposite direction about 20-25" to the fireplace...

EDIT: Just looked at the lines and did some basic math... shouldn't be the supply... 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x11uhzndu8cl0o3/Screenshot 2013-11-16 12.28.05.png


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## Fake coal burner (Nov 16, 2013)

Try this site and see if you can locate the stove numbers. and the stove manual. scroll down to gas stoves.
http://vermontcastings.com/learn-and-inspire/user-guides-manuals/


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 16, 2013)

Fake coal burner said:


> Try this site and see if you can locate the stove numbers. and the stove manual. scroll down to gas stoves.
> http://vermontcastings.com/learn-and-inspire/user-guides-manuals/



Just found the manual in the previous owner's belongings, it's a Vermont Castings Radiance RDV40... seems to be older than the current models they have listed on their site.

The manuals aren't much help - the pilot lights and stays lit, the fire turns on/off, fumes are vented out the wall... no major red flags other than the wimpy flame. 

Guess I might just have to pay someone to come out and take a look at my gas pressures, or at least look at my diagram - I've got experience with solid fuel stoves, but a bit of an amateur when it comes to natural gas systems.


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## DAKSY (Nov 17, 2013)

earthwindfireplace said:


> Just found the manual in the previous owner's belongings, it's a Vermont Castings Radiance RDV40... seems to be older than the current models they have listed on their site.
> 
> The manuals aren't much help - the pilot lights and stays lit, the fire turns on/off, fumes are vented out the wall... no major red flags other than the wimpy flame.
> 
> Guess I might just have to pay someone to come out and take a look at my gas pressures, or at least look at my diagram - I've got experience with solid fuel stoves, but a bit of an amateur when it comes to natural gas systems.



Do you feel confident enough to remove the burner pan? What you are seeing may just be a blocked gas line. Damned spiders get behind the burner orifice & build a nest that almost completely blocks the flow thru the gas line. That's where I'd look before calling a service tech...


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 17, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> Do you feel confident enough to remove the burner pan? What you are seeing may just be a blocked gas line. Damned spiders get behind the burner orifice & build a nest that almost completely blocks the flow thru the gas line. That's where I'd look before calling a service tech...



Yeah , seems simple enough. Is it a matter of cleaning out the orifices themselves? should I remove them? (I think there are two)

Is there any simple way to tell that it's a supply line issue before having the plumber come out and run some new lines? are these the symptoms of low volume?


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## DAKSY (Nov 17, 2013)

earthwindfireplace said:


> Yeah , seems simple enough. Is it a matter of cleaning out the orifices themselves? should I remove them? (I think there are two)
> 
> Is there any simple way to tell that it's a supply line issue before having the plumber come out and run some new lines? are these the symptoms of low volume?


 
Yes, but you'll need a manometer. You can tap into the gas port on the front of the gas valve IF there is one. If you don't know, you'd have to post a pic of the front of the valve in order for me to tell...


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 18, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> Yes, but you'll need a manometer. You can tap into the gas port on the front of the gas valve IF there is one. If you don't know, you'd have to post a pic of the front of the valve in order for me to tell...








I can take a photo of my actual valve if this isn't good enough — but this is the same exact valve. I assume those silver cylinders under the knobs are the ports... or are those adjustment screws?


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## DAKSY (Nov 18, 2013)

earthwindfireplace said:


> I can take a photo of my actual valve if this isn't good enough — but this is the same exact valve. I assume those silver cylinders under the knobs are the ports... or are those adjustment screws?



I can't see the labelling, but if it says PILOT that's the pilot adjustment screw. If it says IN or OUT those are the pressure ports...In will tell you the gas pressure to the valve. Out will tell you the gas pressure to the burner...


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 18, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> I can't see the labelling, but if it says PILOT that's the pilot adjustment screw. If it says IN or OUT those are the pressure ports...In will tell you the gas pressure to the valve. Out will tell you the gas pressure to the burner...



Yeah the pilot adj screw is above the electrical contacts on the left there (hard to see in that photo)

Great, so would just about any manifold pressure testing kit work here?

A friend of mine has one of these, for example http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1630083462&pf_rd_i=507846


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## DAKSY (Nov 18, 2013)

That'll work just fine...


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 23, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> That'll work just fine...



So this might be one for the record books...

the inlet pressure is fine at about 10 inch WC (acceptable range is 5.5 - 14) - but the pressure at the burner is rated way too high, around 7-9 WC (depending on lo-hi knob adjustment - should be 3.5)... did these knuckleheads run a natural gas line to a stove adapted for LP? Is there something else that would cause this issue?

Might just have to sell this thing in that case, doubt I can still get the conversion kit for a model this old.


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## DAKSY (Nov 23, 2013)

earthwindfireplace said:


> So this might be one for the record books...
> 
> the inlet pressure is fine at about 10 inch WC (acceptable range is 5.5 - 14) - but the pressure at the burner is rated way too high, around 7-9 WC (depending on lo-hi knob adjustment - should be 3.5)... did these knuckleheads run a natural gas line to a stove adapted for LP? Is there something else that would cause this issue?
> 
> Might just have to sell this thing in that case, doubt I can still get the conversion kit for a model this old.


 
 Sounds like it's the regulator. You should be able to get one, since they're made for the valve & not for the stove model...Take the model & serial number off the valve & talk to your local hearth shop or maybe an industrial supply place...


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 23, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> Sounds like it's the regulator. You should be able to get one, since they're made for the valve & not for the stove model...Take the model & serial number off the valve & talk to your local hearth shop or maybe an industrial supply place...



Any chance it's been converted for LP use? just wondering because those pressures seem to be pretty close to the rated LP pressures.

I'm guessing if I find the serial numbers and look those up or ask a local hearth shop they'd be able to tell me?


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## DAKSY (Nov 23, 2013)

earthwindfireplace said:


> Any chance it's been converted for LP use? just wondering because those pressures seem to be pretty close to the rated LP pressures.
> 
> I'm guessing if I find the serial numbers and look those up or ask a local hearth shop they'd be able to tell me?


 
Technically, if your unit was converted by a licensed or certified gas tech, there should be a couple of stickers indicating which kit & the date that it was converted. If it was converted by Joe Homeowner, that may not have happened. Almost all valves are set up for NG from the factory & converted as needed. The serial number will not tell them much, but you can look at the regulator. There should be some numbers or different colored screw heads (Red=LP; Blue = NG)...


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 23, 2013)

Hm, no stickers... can't see any colored screw heads either. There's a red line in marker on the bottom of the valve? so, RED = LP? 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6c04xqyexqc4lr/IMG_20131123_234416686.jpg


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## DAKSY (Nov 24, 2013)

earthwindfireplace said:


> Hm, no stickers... can't see any colored screw heads either. There's a red line in marker on the bottom of the valve? so, RED = LP?
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/x6c04xqyexqc4lr/IMG_20131123_234416686.jpg


 
Hmmm. I don't think so, because there is a "1/2 PSI" stamped on that feature & that's incoming NG pressure...


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 24, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> Hmmm. I don't think so, because there is a "1/2 PSI" stamped on that feature & that's incoming NG pressure...



Hm ok, I think I'm probably at the limit of what can be done without having a technician come in and take a look! Thanks again.


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 24, 2013)

Oh here's one last thought... would orifice size help determine LP vs NG? 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/csfdxpo5i4tjnhi/IMG_20131124_124801483.jpg


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## DAKSY (Nov 24, 2013)

earthwindfireplace said:


> Oh here's one last thought... would orifice size help determine LP vs NG?
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/csfdxpo5i4tjnhi/IMG_20131124_124801483.jpg


 
The owners manual should tell you what the correct orifice size is...Did you pull these orifices off & clean behind them like I suggested above on 17 Nov?


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## earthwindfireplace (Nov 24, 2013)

DAKSY said:


> The owners manual should tell you what the correct orifice size is...Did you pull these orifices off & clean behind them like I suggested above on 17 Nov?



Not a word about orifices in the manual at all — I did remove them and clean them though. I'm stuck on the idea that this is an LP appliance that someone tried to hook up to NG without converting it... going to see if I can get someone in to service it this week to find out for sure.


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## ctapman (Jan 6, 2016)

I have the same stove and problem - just a small flame.  Just curious as to how you fixed it - our stove was working fine last year and now this winter I have put up with the small flame and little heat out put - time to get it fixed and am trying to do it myself.  thanks for any help or directions to point me in


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## DAKSY (Jan 6, 2016)

Pull the burner & burner orifice & clean the gas line BEHIND the orifice with a Q-tip or a pipe cleaner.


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## ctapman (Feb 9, 2016)

DAKSY said:


> Pull the burner & burner orifice & clean the gas line BEHIND the orifice with a Q-tip or a pipe cleaner.


I have finally got around to pulling out Vermont Casting Stardance Direct Vent Natural Gas operating manual, using advice above and getting fireplace pulled apart and put back together.  I pulled the burner out and could tell that there was "stuff" inside it.  Sprayed air from compressor into burner and shook out a bit of dust and small ceramic particles pieces from the lava rock package that have fallen into burner.  After getting this done and now not hearing any loose items going on inside the burner, I now went to work on the orifices.  I was only able to unscrew one of them but did take pipe cleaners to both and worked on making sure that there was nothing inside.  Now - putting fireplace back together and turning it back on - I do have a bit bigger flame but nothing like it should be.  My only though is that we are having some issues with the honeywell valve.  I am up for any other recommendations - here are some photos and diagrams of what I have worked with - thanks, Chris Manning


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## ctapman (Feb 9, 2016)

PS - I did make sure on the honeywell valve that I am turned up all the way to HI


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## Tech Guru (Feb 9, 2016)

Is this a new condition of a unit which has always been running on Natural Gas, or was this a re-sale and re-install?

Maybe an ask that requires a Gas Technician, or if you could get your hands on a manometer, what is the outlet pressure on the valve, as well as the inlet?  Secondly, what sizes are marked on the orifices - would either be a nominal orifice size stamped into it, or the applicable dimension in decimal points of an inch...


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## DAKSY (Feb 9, 2016)

Tech Guru said:


> Is this a new condition of a unit which has always been running on Natural Gas, or was this a re-sale and re-install?
> 
> Maybe an ask that requires a Gas Technician, or if you could get your hands on a manometer, what is the outlet pressure on the valve, as well as the inlet?  Secondly, what sizes are marked on the orifices - would either be a nominal orifice size stamped into it, or the applicable dimension in decimal points of an inch...


 

I was thinking along those lines, TG, but the OP indicated it was working fine until this year...


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## ctapman (Feb 9, 2016)

Tech Guru said:


> Is this a new condition of a unit which has always been running on Natural Gas, or was this a re-sale and re-install?
> 
> Maybe an ask that requires a Gas Technician, or if you could get your hands on a manometer, what is the outlet pressure on the valve, as well as the inlet?  Secondly, what sizes are marked on the orifices - would either be a nominal orifice size stamped into it, or the applicable dimension in decimal points of an inch...


We purchased it new over 10+ years ago and has had no service in this time.  Was working fine with good flame - but now that I think about it - it may have been 2 years now that we have had a small blue flame going on and not the nice looking flame it should be (plus added heat output with bigger flame).


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## ctapman (Feb 9, 2016)

DAKSY said:


> I was thinking along those lines, TG, but the OP indicated it was working fine until this year...


I have a neighbor down the street that has a heating/plumbing company that I may give a call - I know that he would be fair on price for fixing this up - unfortunately the gas fireplace company that installed this Vermont Castings Stardance Stove years ago is around 45 miles away so it is a big service charge to get them out.  It just seems that if the Honeywell valve could put more gas out (by turning the valve to "11" - Spinal Tap Movie quote - or higher then it goes now) my problem would be solved.  I am almost just thinking about buying a new Honeywell valve and installing that to see if the problem would be fixed.


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## ctapman (Feb 9, 2016)

ctapman said:


> I have a neighbor down the street that has a heating/plumbing company that I may give a call - I know that he would be fair on price for fixing this up - unfortunately the gas fireplace company that installed this Vermont Castings Stardance Stove years ago is around 45 miles away so it is a big service charge to get them out.  It just seems that if the Honeywell valve could put more gas out (by turning the valve to "11" - Spinal Tap Movie quote - or higher then it goes now) my problem would be solved.  I am almost just thinking about buying a new Honeywell valve and installing that to see if the problem would be fixed.


ps - thinking more about this - maybe it could be the burner?  I know when I pulled it out there was a lot of crap in it - maybe it is still clogged and not letting gas through?


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## DAKSY (Feb 9, 2016)

ctapman said:


> ps - thinking more about this - maybe it could be the burner?  I know when I pulled it out there was a lot of crap in it - maybe it is still clogged and not letting gas through?


 
If it's the burner, it may be that gas is escaping other than thru the burner ports. Another gas burner recently had this issue with a Jotul burner pan leaking. If you pull the logs, & light the unit, you may see flames in other areas...

He temporarily sealed the leak with Hi Temp RTV Silicone...Hasn't reported back with any results


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## ctapman (Aug 29, 2016)

After taking our Vermont Castings Direct Vent Stardance NG stove apart many a times I finally called in a service person.  We have a bad Honey Well Valve (VS8420E) Natural - part number from Vermont Castings manual is 10001782 (above back in Jan 2016 I scanned the valve into this thread).

So - here is the email I got back from the folks that serviced our stove

"Unfortunately, Honeywell no longer makes these valves.  Vermont Castings does not offer a retro-fit valve for this stove.  Nate can probably installed an SIT valve on your stove.  However, that may require a new piezo ignitor and pilot assembly.  Estimated cost to install a new valve upgrade will cost between $675.00 - 800.00, to be billed at time and materials.  Let me know if you want to go ahead with this repair."

What the heck - I have not researched this at all and throwing this out to the crowd.  Does this sound correct that there would be no replacement/retro fit valve kit available?  Just bums me out - was hoping to only have to throw a couple of hundred bucks out there to purchase a new valve and replace it myself.  

Thanks for the support and any advise that anyone may have.

Chris Manning


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## Tech Guru (Aug 29, 2016)

I know they used to make a Honeywell to SIT valve kit for this stove (the one pictured is the newer 'drop-in' burner style).  It was item 20010811 for NG and 20010680 for LP.  They still appear to be available on sites like ibuyfireplaceparts.com and woodmanspartsplus.com.  The version prior to your model (characterized by a 7 pc log set, solid cast iron firebox bottom, and right side gas entry on burner) would not have had a kit, but the model you have should be at least a little easier to deal with...


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## ctapman (Aug 29, 2016)

Thanks so much for the part# for our Stardance.  I am so glad to hear that there is a retrofit valve kit - I was afraid that this was going to be a difficult fix but now not so worried.  Thanks Again


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## ctapman (Sep 6, 2016)

Hi Tech Guru and Daksy - I have the SIT retrofit valve (#20010811) here now ready to install into our Vermont Castings Stardance Stove.  I like to be a DIY but wondering if I should have the service folks I have looked at the stove install it or should I attempt this myself.  It looks like it came with

Gas Valve
Spark Ignitor
Valve Bracket
Ignitor Bracket
Bracket Fasteners
but no install instructions.  I am OK with calling in the pros but if this is a fairly simple job I am up for digging into it myself.  Thanks for the input.


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## DAKSY (Sep 7, 2016)

Hmmm. I'd say that if you have ANY doubts about your abilities to preform the change over correctly & safely,
I'd leave to a professional hearth tech.


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## Tech Guru (Sep 7, 2016)

I'd second DAKSY's opinion.


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