# Electricity rate comparison



## Swedishchef (Jan 18, 2013)

Hey guys

FWIW, my electricity supplier just put out a survey of electricity costs in various areas around North America. Page 5 shows the residential rates in various locations.

All I know is that I could not afford electricity in San Fransisco or New York!!

Andrew


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## jharkin (Jan 18, 2013)

Ok, Quebec is officially spoiled. wow

15.4 cents here all up.


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## begreen (Jan 18, 2013)

Seattle used to be around 5 cents / kw. It's creeping up now, but still low in comparison. We are around 10.5 cents all totaled.


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## PapaDave (Jan 18, 2013)

All in, we're at 11.58.
$.1158/kwh


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## pdf27 (Jan 18, 2013)

Don't groan too much - I pay roughly 24 ¢/kWh. Part of that is low consumption (I use ~2,200 kWh/year - those numbers are based on 12,000 kWh/year), part of that is the US having very cheap electricity in comparison!


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## BrotherBart (Jan 18, 2013)

$0.126 per kwh all in here.


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## Redbarn (Jan 18, 2013)

All in at $0.109 / kwh here.


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## woodgeek (Jan 18, 2013)

I'm getting 100% wind at 13.8 cents all in, in Philadelphia Metro.

All I know is I was paying 15 cents in Chicago in **1989**, and now the price is 12 cents! Whassup?


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## earl764 (Jan 18, 2013)

My rate is one thing, 9 cents roughly.

My distribution charges added up are more than the actual electricity usage.

Last bill was $61 for generation, $83 for delivery.


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## Bret Chase (Jan 18, 2013)

last I checked I'm paying roughly $0.15kw/h for generation and delivery...


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## Swedishchef (Jan 18, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Ok, Quebec is officially spoiled. wow​


 LOL. Yes we are. BUt you gotta remember that Hydro Quebec is Canada's largest electricity producer and the world's largest hydroelectricity producer. They sell lots of electricity to the US and share the profits (it is a state owner company) with it's residents in the form of low rates.

Andrew


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## Swedishchef (Jan 18, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I'm getting 100% wind at 13.8 cents all in, in Philadelphia Metro.
> 
> All I know is I was paying 15 cents in Chicago in **1989**, and now the price is 12 cents! Whassup?


 Wow. it's not often that rates go down..what caused that?!


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## Swedishchef (Jan 18, 2013)

Bret: I think Hydro Quebec sells to Maine and most New ENgland states....


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## Bret Chase (Jan 18, 2013)

We get boned by Iberdrola, which owns Central Maine Power and is bleeding it dry... the next town over from me has their own electric utility, which is remarkably cheaper than CMP on the delivery end.. to the point where, when I lived in that town... it was cheaper to run electric heaters than a Monitor....


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## Swedishchef (Jan 18, 2013)

Move back to that other town


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## Bret Chase (Jan 18, 2013)

I was renting there, and I own this house outright... do the math...


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## woodgeek (Jan 19, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> LOL. Yes we are. BUt you gotta remember that Hydro Quebec is Canada's largest electricity producer and the world's largest hydroelectricity producer. They sell lots of electricity to the US and share the profits (it is a state owner company) with it's residents in the form of low rates.
> 
> Andrew


 
Let's hope they don't privatize, get a clue, cut you Quebecois off, and sell ALL their juice to NYC and CT for a tidy profit.


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## Swedishchef (Jan 19, 2013)

They already know how they're making the money. It will NEVER privatize. It makes too much money for now. And if they attempted to privatize, the residents of Quebec would likely riot until it went back to a state owned company.

Hydro Quebec had wanted to buy NB Power (New Brunswick Power) for 5 billion and the residents of NB turned it down. It would have provided straight pipe transmission lines to the US for HQ. Silly NB residents: NB Power has a $5 billion dollar debt!!

Andrew


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## woodgeek (Jan 19, 2013)

O Canada!


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 19, 2013)

I get 11c a KWH    That includes EVERYTHING  Taxes Min cust Charge,Dist,Gen,Transmission,ect. THats the only way to figure it take your entire Bill & div by Kws used.   Cant complain,seems like it keeps gettin cheaper if you figure inflation.


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## Swedishchef (Jan 19, 2013)

That is a pretty decent rate Randy!

The neighboring province to me costs twice as much as it does here for electricity. I had plan on moving there. However the higher cost of electricity is offset by lower income taxes....

Andrew


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## Fi-Q (Jan 21, 2013)

Ok, the only down side for our low power rate is it is still diffcult for me to justify a gassifier boiler with storage........  .. But so far my wood is free so it is still cheaper than cheap electricity


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## Swedishchef (Jan 21, 2013)

Fi-Q said:


> Ok, the only down side for our low power rate is it is still diffcult for me to justify a gassifier boiler with storage........  .. But so far my wood is free so it is still cheaper than cheap electricity


 There's the man! You're back, long time no see! What have you been up to?!?!

You have a boiler eh? Nice!

Andrew


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## Highbeam (Jan 22, 2013)

The report stupidly only reports the energy charge that the power company pays. Which is like buying milk by the cow fart. The total bill divided by consumed power is all that matters. Sheesh, better go pour some cow farts on my cereal.

All in we're at exactly 10 cents per kwh. Pretty odd. I use 1100 kwh and pay 110$. That dang hot tub is a hog. Our propane is less than 2$ per gallon right now and while both are cheap, electric is actually the better bargain.


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## Fi-Q (Jan 22, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> There's the man! You're back, long time no see! What have you been up to?!?!
> 
> You have a boiler eh? Nice!
> 
> Andrew


 
Hey not much bud, Freezing my rear end in Mont-Louis, having to play with small small wire and small 7mm bolts & nuts on the mountain, in a steel igloo, at -25 celsius  Awesome   Sending you an email......


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## Swedishchef (Jan 22, 2013)

HIghbeam: I thought page 5 shows residential rates....

I got your email Louis. I will write back!

Andrew


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## Highbeam (Jan 24, 2013)

Not unless the canadian dollar is worth that much more than ours. 8.17(eh) vs. 10.0 (us)?


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## Swedishchef (Jan 24, 2013)

At least it's at par right now 1 CAD = 0.9977 USD 

And on April 2nd 2012 it was
2012-04-02 0.9903 CAN 1.0098USD


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## nate379 (Jan 25, 2013)

It's right about .016/Kwh here and I suspect it will be going up since natural gas just went up 0.10 a therm.  Might not sound like much but winter use for average house is around 150-200 therm so that's a $15-20 increase per month.


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## Swedishchef (Jan 25, 2013)

Every $ adds up....


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## BoilerMan (Jan 26, 2013)

Most rates went down because natural gas is cheap now.  Thank fracking for that.  $0.147 here all said and done.  Down from $0.168

TS


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## nate379 (Jan 27, 2013)

We are running out if natural gas according to the gas company... Yet they export it to the Chinese and Japs.
They also said coldest winter since 1982, when its been really warm so far.  I'm pretty sure they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.


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## TheMightyMoe (Jan 27, 2013)

Over 24 cents a KW last time I checked up here. Oil for electricity, best of both worlds...


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## Swedishchef (Jan 27, 2013)

They certainly are not giving it away up there.....wowzers!


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## Joe Rampey (Feb 16, 2013)

Well I feel blessed...  Here in North Carolina I pay 9.2 cents per kw.  I have a 5 kw solar panel array that I "sell all-buy all"  It puts out 6 - 800 kw per month.  The co-op pays me 4.2 cents per kw... Then I get 8 cents per kw from the state as a renewable energy credit.  That $70 - $100 comes in handy...  Kinda hoping rates go up

Not Really!


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## Swedishchef (Feb 16, 2013)

How much does a setup like that cost?


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2013)

We worked out a sweet deal for our 3K solar array. WA state & PSE pay $0.64/kw hr because the system is WA state made. Yesterday was sunny all day and the meter was tallying up a good run.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 17, 2013)

What?!?!?!?!?! $3K for a solar system? That's it? What would be the average turn around time for it to pay itself off?? Crap, I wish I had less trees around my house!


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## Fi-Q (Feb 17, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> What?!?!?!?!?! $3K for a solar system? That's it? What would be the average turn around time for it to pay itself off?? Crap, I wish I had less trees around my house!


You can do it. Hydro Quebec wiil install a 2 way meter atYOUR cost and will only credit you from your actual bill what you are backgeeding to the grid and at 7 cent kwh. And there is no incecitive for personnal solar array in Quebec, so basically, it will never pay for itself, oh, and if you want to be grid tie, it needs to be a certify installation by a hydro spprouve contractor i think !

I want to eventually put a back up system on the house, and being grid tie will sonewhat lower the cost, but if you only looking at it financially, it is not  a good  investment for us, hydro quebec costumer. Me, I am thinking of it as a hobby, a sort of freedom and a peace if mind for the little survivalist hidden insude me, But again it is just a to do thing on the list for now, and as it is not making financial sense, it keeping falling at the bottom of the list !


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## Joe Rampey (Feb 18, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> How much does a setup like that cost?


 
3K refers to 3 kw... I spent about $24,000 for 5 kw.  But, I get 30% back from Uncle Sam ($7200), 35% back from NC ($8400) and then sell the power.  So I will have $8400 in the system after all tax credits.  At $80 per month - about 100 months to pay off.  Not a stellar investment - but, doing my part.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 18, 2013)

Joe: that seems like a decent deal! Did you install the equipment yourself?


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## Joe Rampey (Feb 18, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Joe: that seems like a decent deal! Did you install the equipment yourself?


 
I installed the panels - Had an electrical contractor (solar specialist) do the wiring. turn key project with them doing all of the work would have been $36,000.  I had a south facing roof with 6 on 12 slope - not too steep.  It was a very simple install.


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## Hansson (Feb 23, 2013)

Over here I pay 21 cent for 1 kWh. 400 kWh in December


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## Swedishchef (Feb 23, 2013)

Ha! That's what happens when your country builds Volvos   Just kidding. How does Sweden generate most of their electricity? 400KWh is not much for a month. I just received my bill for 69 days (including CHristmas) and I consumed 3900 kWh. But I made mistakes in there: I left my heater on in my garage for a week (while it was -25 C) and I also left about 4000 watts of CHristmas lights on for 10 days. Ha ha.

ANdrew


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## pdf27 (Feb 23, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I just received my bill for 69 days (including CHristmas) and I consumed 3900 kWh. But I made mistakes in there: I left my heater on in my garage for a week (while it was -25 C) and I also left about 4000 watts of CHristmas lights on for 10 days. Ha ha.


That's almost twice my annual consumption


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

LOL. BUt remember I live in a climate where we had -25C at night and -17 in the day for 25 days straight or so. I also heat primarily with electricity, supplemented by wood.

How the heck can your annual consumption be 2000 kWh?!?!


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## nate379 (Feb 24, 2013)

My folks live in Northern Maine and they have never paid that much for power.



Taylor Sutherland said:


> Most rates went down because natural gas is cheap now. Thank fracking for that. $0.147 here all said and done. Down from $0.168
> 
> TS


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## nate379 (Feb 24, 2013)

That isn't that hard to do if you are really careful about use. I generally use around 350-400KwH a month. 3900 KwH would be a ~$650 electric bill at our rates!




Swedishchef said:


> LOL. BUt remember I live in a climate where we had -25C at night and -17 in the day for 25 days straight or so. I also heat primarily with electricity, supplemented by wood.
> 
> How the heck can your annual consumption be 2000 kWh?!?!


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

That is true..I have never seen rates really go down before....


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

Nate: it is no typo. But just remember that it is for 69 days. That is almost 1/5th of the year and it is during our coldest weather. Attached are 2 pictures: the first one is the average average cost per month over the past 2 years and the second one is the average consumption profile. The lighter band was last year and the darker one is this year. As I mentioned earlier, I have some of the (and perhaps THE) cheapest electricity rates in North America.


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## nate379 (Feb 24, 2013)

What uses so much power in the summer? When I lived in Idaho the power cost $0.07 or $0.08 per kWh. House was all electric, the highest bill I ever had was a bit over $100.  In the summer it was usually around $15-20.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

Weird... I thought I was doing well in the summer...lol. 

I am guessing the main culprit is the 60 gallon hot water heater. Then the clothes dryer, oven and then lights. And i have a dehumidifier running in the basement all summer (the compressor cycles on and off whereas the fans stay on). The only months where there is no heat on at al in the month is July and August.

And I assume that Gaspe Quebec is colder than Idaho...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspé,_Quebec

A


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## nate379 (Feb 24, 2013)

Yeah lows were single digits at the worst though living in a barely insulated 100 year old house may as well been -40*! Summer would get over 100* pretty often.  House would stay in the 70s with just shade from big trees and a swamp cooler.

Was looking at the wikipedia for your town and the temps look similar to here.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

It can get hot here but not too hot. I am right beside a bay...that is connected to the Gulf of St Lawrence (not the Gulf of Mexico) and water temps only reach 60 in the summer...east wind wil cool us off. Check out our average snowfall! According to wiki we are even colder than you..


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## sesmith (Feb 24, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Weird... I thought I was doing well in the summer...lol.
> 
> I am guessing the main culprit is the 60 gallon hot water heater. Then the clothes dryer, oven and then lights. And i have a dehumidifier running in the basement all summer (the compressor cycles on and off whereas the fans stay on). The only months where there is no heat on at al in the month is July and August.
> 
> ...


 
I thought, being all electric, your winter usage would be much higher. I'm guessing you are doing much of your heating load with wood. Depending on family size, your summer usage might be considered pretty normal. I'll bet, though, if you got anal with a kill-a-watt meter, you could cut it down by at least 25%. I was able to knock mine down by 30% a few years ago. One of the main culprits was the dehumidifier in the cellar. It was using a lot of electricity to do very little. I replaced it with one that worked. I also did some air sealing down there, which helps keep the humidity out.

I bet a GSHP (geothermal) would work well where you are. It could do most of your hot water as well. It might be hard to justify the cost where you are, considering the cheap electricity and firewood. Maybe though, over the long term, especially if you wanted, or needed to move away from wood, it might be worth looking at.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

sesmith said:


> I thought, being all electric, your winter usage would be much higher. I'm guessing you are doing much of your heating load with wood. Depending on family size, your summer usage might be considered pretty normal. I'll bet, though, if you got anal with a kill-a-watt meter, you could cut it down by at least 25%. I was able to knock mine down by 30% a few years ago. One of the main culprits was the dehumidifier in the cellar. It was using a lot of electricity to do very little. I replaced it with one that worked. I also did some air sealing down there, which helps keep the humidity out.
> 
> I bet a GSHP (geothermal) would work well where you are. It could do most of your hot water as well. It might be hard to justify the cost where you are, considering the cheap electricity and firewood. Maybe though, over the long term, especially if you wanted, or needed to move away from wood, it might be worth looking at.


 
My family is a family of 4..however the kids are young. One is 4 months and one is 2.5 years. That does involve washing their clothing twice a week though. lol.

I may be able to cut it down a bit but I don't think it is that high right now. Biggest culprit is the hot water tank, lights (8 recessed lights on the house @60 watts each on for 4-8 hours a night..I could replace them with $30 bulbs but no thanks) and dryer (we NEVER hang clothing..).

I think it is not that high in the winter due to 2 things: 

1- I have a wood stove in my basement (which is insulated with R24 top to bottom..R10 spray foam on the walls and R14 Roxul) and burn 1.5 cords of softwood and 1.5 cords of hardwood a year. The heat easily rises to the main floor west end of the house.

2- It is a 3.5 year old house. R50 attic, R22 walls and double pane low E argon windows. I think it must help a bit...It is a 1325 square foot bungalow (not that big).

My basement is completely wired for electric heating but I don't dare use....THEN my electricity costs would double!

Unfortunately I don't think Geothermal is worth it here. I don't plan on being in this house much longer so I won't recoup the costs. And Hydro Quebec doesn't even have any plan to buy electricity from small producers (say I installed some panels). They simply give kWh credits! And you  have to pay for the hookup, everything!

Next house may have infloor heating with a wood boiler......


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## pdf27 (Feb 24, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> How the heck can your annual consumption be 2000 kWh?!?!


 3 bedroom mid-terrace house with the two of us living in it, heating & hot water by mains gas (~10,000 kWh/year). LED lights everywhere, new highly efficient appliances, dishwasher plumbed in to hot water, that sort of thing.
Hoping to fit Solar PV + Hot Water and wood stove this year, aiming for ~6,000 kWh/year of gas and ~1,200 kWh/year of electricity (we don't have net metering in the UK).


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## BoilerMan (Feb 24, 2013)

I just did some math and came up with a monthly average of 191 kWh for that last 12 months. A grand total of 2,292 kWh in that last year. Annual useage of 50 gallons of LP for dryer, and range, and 60 gal of oil for hot water in the summer, as all other water and 100% heat is provided with wood during the heating season. I have been thinking of selling my Toyotomi OM and going with an air source HP for some "free" air conditioning in the summer. We did run a window AC unit for a few hours a day last summer in the bedroom.

TS


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

pdf27 said:


> 3 bedroom mid-terrace house with the two of us living in it, heating & hot water by mains gas (~10,000 kWh/year). LED lights everywhere, new highly efficient appliances, dishwasher plumbed in to hot water, that sort of thing.
> Hoping to fit Solar PV + Hot Water and wood stove this year, aiming for ~6,000 kWh/year of gas and ~1,200 kWh/year of electricity (we don't have net metering in the UK).


 Oooo...you said the secret! Hot water and heating via gas. Now it makes sense. I didn't even think of it! lol


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## Swedishchef (Feb 24, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> I just did some math and came up with a monthly average of 191 kWh for that last 12 months. A grand total of 2,292 kWh in that last year. Annual useage of 50 gallons of LP for dryer, and range, and 60 gal of oil for hot water in the summer, as all other water and 100% heat is provided with wood during the heating season. I have been thinking of selling my Toyotomi OM and going with an air source HP for some "free" air conditioning in the summer. We did run a window AC unit for a few hours a day last summer in the bedroom.
> 
> TS


 Good grief, I dont know why I did not realize that you would have to heat water, use dryer, etc with NG or LP. Otherwise the utility bill would be much higher. My bad!

Andrew


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## Hansson (Feb 25, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Ha! That's what happens when your country builds Volvos  Just kidding. How does Sweden generate most of their electricity?
> ANdrew


 
Hydropower 66 TWh
Nuclear power 55 TWh
Vindpower 6 TWh
Others 19 TWh "Biomass"


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## Swedishchef (Feb 25, 2013)

That is what I thought. 50/50 nuclear/hydro. Very nice!


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## lukem (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm at $0.08379 all in here.  First 300 is $0.09 then the next whatever is $0.05, then a bunch of taxes and riders.

Either way, it's pretty cheap.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 25, 2013)

Holy crap, that is cheap indeed Usually electricity gets more expensive as you use more...


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## Highbeam (Feb 25, 2013)

begreen said:


> We worked out a sweet deal for our 3K solar array. WA state & PSE pay $0.64/kw hr because the system is WA state made. Yesterday was sunny all day and the meter was tallying up a good run.


 
They pay 64 cents per kwh? That must be a mistake, since you can buy it for less than 10.


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## Highbeam (Feb 25, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> They pay 64 cents per kwh? That must be a mistake, since you can buy it for less than 10.


 
Nope, 64 cents which must be 54 from the state and 10 from the utility.

"
For every kilowatt hour (kWh) produced by your grid-tied solar, wind or biogas system, up to $5,000 annually, as measured by your Production Meter:
*15¢/kWh* – system with components made out of state
*38¢/kWh* – for made-in-WA solar panels with out of state inverter
*54¢/kWh* – for made-in-WA solar panels with made-in-WA inverter
Your local utility reads your Production Meter and you have the option to receive a check annually or apply your earnings to your utility bill.
Through June 30, 2020."


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## Swedishchef (Feb 25, 2013)

o...m..g.... KA-CHING!


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## woodgeek (Feb 25, 2013)

Those are the sort of rates that got solar rolling in Germany, now in the process of phasing out.


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## Hansson (Feb 26, 2013)

If I have solar panels and sell it to my provider I got 0.157/kWh pay. The goverment pay 50% of the installion cost of the panels. They change it from 70% resently.
I think the goverment sould not spend monney on things like that


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## denjohn (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm spending the winter in Saipan, just got the bill for February,      84 kwh @ $.41551  = $34.90


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## Laszlo (Mar 15, 2013)

We just signed up for 100% wind power through Citizen Power's Green Energy Collaborative, with a 3-year locked-in rate of $0.0828 for electric generation (our "Price to Compare"), which is a slight savings versus PECO. Up through 2012 PECO gave us a winter heating discount, but since they dropped it our Price to Compare has been $0.0869/kWh, with distribution and other fees pushing it to ~$0.133/kWh in total (and a marginal rate of $0.129 for each additional kWh used or saved). This is quite a bit higher than in previous years--as shown by our combined yearly electric bills' cost divided by our yearly kWh used:

2008 - $0.10200/kWh
2009 - $0.10511/kWh
2010 - $0.09730/kWh
2011 - $0.10982/kWh
2012 - $0.13791/kWh




The graph is from 2011 on only, when our bills started including the Price to Compare.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 15, 2013)

That is a pretty nice setup.. I wish we had something like that here......


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 18, 2013)

The regular rate here is about 11 cents.   But thanks to a time-of-day rate, I now pay about 5 cents most of the time, and about 30 cents on weekdays from 6-11am in winter and 1-5pm in summer.   This might not work so well for some people, but I have a rather odd diurnal cycle, typically sleeping 3am - Noon.     So the peak hours are a complete non-issue in winter, and not much of one in summer, because I like to keep the house pretty cool overnight, so when I wake up, I simply turn the thermostat up and the A/C does not come on until the peak period is over.   As a result, I use about one kwh per day during the peak hours, which is basically my "basal metabolism" of 150-200 watts, probably mostly due to an old refrigerator.

Though this is excellent for my wallet, I do wonder if it helps on carbon.  Though obviously I'm helping a lot with the issue of having to add generation capacity, I guess the key question is: does the generation of peak-time electricity have substantially more environmental impact, be it carbon emissions or whatever ?

I know one way in which my plan definitely helps.    It was told to me by my climate journalist friend who's normally a huge climate-change hawk, when he endorsed my plan to get an old-fashioned electric-resistance water heater (albeit far better insulated than your grandfather's) and save the $1000+ over a "fancy" new water heater and put it towards solar electric or something.   He explained the idea is that the millions of electric water heaters actually act as giant distributed "battery" for storing electric energy.  As long as one contrives, of course, to have the water heater not operate during peak hours; this happens for me quite naturally due to my schedule, as explained above, but can be implemented by most anyone using a water-heater timer.


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## Laszlo (Mar 18, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Though this is excellent for my wallet, I do wonder if it helps on carbon. Though obviously I'm helping a lot with the issue of having to add generation capacity, I guess the key question is: does the generation of peak-time electricity have substantially more environmental impact, be it carbon emissions or whatever ?


Yes, though the effect will vary by region depending on the mix of power generation. Hydro, nuclear, and the cleaner gas and coal-fired plants can provide for most base-load power demands, but during peak days of the year the old, dirtier coal plants are brought back into temporary service to handle the load.

Times of peak load are also times of peak profits (to an _extraordinary_ degree). For this reason, solar capacity can have an outsized effect on the industry, despite its tiny sliver of the generation market. By cutting into the fossil fuel burners' peak summertime hours, solar _greatly_ reduces their profits.


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## woodgeek (Mar 18, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> I know one way in which my plan definitely helps. It was told to me by my climate journalist friend who's normally a huge climate-change hawk, when he endorsed my plan to get an old-fashioned electric-resistance water heater (albeit far better insulated than your grandfather's) and save the $1000+ over a "fancy" new water heater and put it towards solar electric or something. He explained the idea is that the millions of electric water heaters actually act as giant distributed "battery" for storing electric energy. As long as one contrives, of course, to have the water heater not operate during peak hours; this happens for me quite naturally due to my schedule, as explained above, but can be implemented by most anyone using a water-heater timer.


 
My HPWH still uses a hefty 1500 kWh/yr, and is just as good a battery (if I had TOU and put it on a timer).


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## Swedishchef (Mar 18, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> The regular rate here is about 11 cents. But thanks to a time-of-day rate, I now pay about 5 cents most of the time, and about 30 cents on weekdays from 6-11am in winter and 1-5pm in summer. This might not work so well for some people, but I have a rather odd diurnal cycle, typically sleeping 3am - Noon. So the peak hours are a complete non-issue in winter, and not much of one in summer, because I like to keep the house pretty cool overnight, so when I wake up, I simply turn the thermostat up and the A/C does not come on until the peak period is over. As a result, I use about one kwh per day during the peak hours, which is basically my "basal metabolism" of 150-200 watts, probably mostly due to an old refrigerator.


 
I think your schedule helps immensely. That $0.05 /kWh is also quite a cheap rate! BUt then there's the 30 cents..that is EXPENSIVE. $0,30/kWh???? Wow.

Andrew


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 19, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> My HPWH still uses a hefty 1500 kWh/yr, and is just as good a battery (if I had TOU and put it on a timer).


Oh yeah, of course - it doesn't have to be ERWH for this "battery" notion to work. But another argument for ERWH, that I read here or elsewhere, is that the quite substantial dollar savings (over a fancy one like HPWH or condensing gas) can be put towards PV solar, which is on a cost curve that Jeremy Grantham compared to Moore's Law. Wasn't really an issue for me as I just didn't have a place in the house where the noise of HPWH wouldn't be bothersome, plus I really wanted the thing in the crawlspace, and there's no such thing (yet) as a lowboy-style HPWH.


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## woodgeek (Mar 19, 2013)

Sure, HPWH are not for every application. Versus PV, hmmmm. My HPWH was $1200 more than a decent ERWH, after rebates, and uses ~2000 kWh/yr less. I would need a 1.5 kW PV array to make that much energy, so PV would need to cost 1200/1500 = $0.80/W installed, after rebates to be a better energy deal. If my WH has half the life of a PV array, I guess we can double that, but I still haven't seen a lot of installs <$1.60/W.

But my rooftop solar resource is ~50% shaded by trees not on my property. I don't have enough sun to grow vegetables. 

Couldn't you do an airtap with a lowboy marathon?


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 19, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> But my rooftop solar resource is ~50% shaded by trees not on my property. I don't have enough sun to grow vegetables.


I feel your pain.


> Couldn't you do an airtap with a lowboy marathon?


I don't understand what you mean.


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## woodgeek (Mar 19, 2013)

For a while I wanted a HPWH in a 44" high space....my plan was a regular, insulated tank, like a marathon brand lowboy tank, and an external HP compressor like the airtap or geyser brand.


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