# Heat Output: cat vs. non-cat



## 4barrel (Feb 24, 2013)

I was interested in maybe getting a new stove for the longer burn times. I would like to get a cat but I read on this site before that cats do not put out as much heat as non cats. Is this true? Comparing a BK Princess and a Pacific Energy super27 or a summit, how would these stoves compare regarding heat output and burn times.


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## webby3650 (Feb 24, 2013)

A non-cat stove doesn't put out more heat. If the stoves are equally sized the output will be nearly the same. The difference comes when the air is turned down to low. The cat stoves will cruise low and slow, non-cat stoves are hard to slow down once they get cruising and. The Super27 is a good stove with burn times of 8-12 hours. The BK is gonna give you consistent 18-24 hour burns.


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## begreen (Feb 24, 2013)

Pushed hard and running all out, cat stoves can be rated a bit lower for maximum btus/hr., though we are seeing this go away with new hybrid designs like the Cape Cod and the Progress Hybrid. If the goal is absolute maximum burn times at very low output, cat stoves are great, but to be fair you need to compare equal sized fireboxes. The Super 27 is one of if not the long burn champ in non-cats. It will come close to matching an equal sized cat stove like the Buck 20 or BK Sirocco 20 for burn time, but I would give the cat the edge here. This changes when you go up to the 3 cu ft capacity stoves. There the cat stove is an undisputed champ. At a very low burn the Princess is going beat the Summit by many hours. On the opposite side, for maximum btus/hr I think the Summit pulls ahead. Visually, well, in this case a Chinook 30 would be a better comparison.

It really comes down to a lot of factors. If you live in a climate where shoulder seasons are long and really cold spells are infrequent, then the Princess may be a good fit. The same would be true if you have a very well insulated house that doesn't have a dramatic increase in heating needs when it is cold and windy. But if filling the stove every 8-12 hrs is fine with you and you like to have extra horsepower for very cold snaps and want a great fire view, then a non-cat may be a better fit. If you have a wife that wants a decent visual in the living room, then you may need to throw out theory and balance aesthetics. 

Now you better go out and get a bag of popcorn, a 12-pack and a very comfy chair. This is a perennial topic that usually goes on for days.

BK Sirocco -1.8 cu ft, 30,407 BTU's/h constant output for 8 hours
BK Princess - 2.85 cu ft, 40,863 BTU's/h constant output for 10 hours

Progress Hybrid - 2.8 cu ft, 12,538 - 73,171 BTU's/hr, max 80K btus​​PE Super 27 - 2 cu ft, not sure of the low steady btus (rated at 34.6K EPA) /hr. Max out 72K btus​PE Summit - 3 cu ft, , " " (rated at 38.5K btus EPA), max out 99K btus. ​


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## webby3650 (Feb 24, 2013)

begreen said:


> BK Sirocco -1.8 cu ft, 30,407 BTU's/h constant output for 8 hours BK Princess - 2.85 cu ft, 40,863 BTU's/h constant output for 10 hours


Is this the rating on high?


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## begreen (Feb 24, 2013)

I would guess so, but I am not sure of the exact setting that they used to come up with this number. It could just be that BK is trying to provide a meaningful metric.


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## webby3650 (Feb 24, 2013)

I'm not sure about the Siroccco but I've talked to a few people lately that run the princess with 24hr burns consistently. The houses they were heating were sized appropriately to. That rating would have to be on high I would think.


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## jeff_t (Feb 24, 2013)

4barrel, I think you need to clarify 'long burn times' and 'heat output'. Subjective terms, and mean different things to different people. 

Sounds like you are replacing a stove. What is it, how much are you heating, and is it doing the job?

Cat vs non-cat gets kinda boring. Days worth of non-stop reading here on the subject. Helping someone buy a new stove is much more interesting.


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## 4barrel (Feb 24, 2013)

I have a Avalon Olympic right now, house is about 1600 sq ft. with no wall insulation( hope to take care of that soon). This stove works good, lots of heat, great convection system, but I cannot get more than a four hour burn. Checked for leaks and all. The short burn times are becoming irratating. I use hardwood, seasoned one and a half to two year dried.


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## jeff_t (Feb 24, 2013)

You say 1.5-2 years seasoned. Is that split and stacked for that time? How are you running the stove? Do you cut the air back and get a good secondary burn? What kind of temps are you running?

Only asking, because that's a big stove and should do better than that.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 24, 2013)

That stove should be doing minimal 2x the burn times your getting.


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## Pallet Pete (Feb 24, 2013)

Thermostatic dampers can really help on burn times if I am not mistaken PE uses them or a variation of them for longer burns.

Pete


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## 10-cc (Feb 24, 2013)

4 hour of heating is no good, this is what you should get from your stove:

"Heating Specifications
Approximate Maximum Heating Capacity (in square feet)* 1,500 to 2,500
Maximum BTU's per Hour (Cord Wood Calculation) 74,300
Overall Efficiency (Oregon Method) 70.0 %
Maximum Burn Time Up to 12 Hours"

Before thinking about replacing your stove, you will need to find out what went wrong with your current stove. Is its performance degraded over time or was it a sudden change?

To compare various stoves you can refer to: http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/wscompha.htm


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## rdust (Feb 24, 2013)

4barrel said:


> I have a Avalon Olympic right now, house is about 1600 sq ft. with no wall insulation( hope to take care of that soon). This stove works good, lots of heat, great convection system, but I cannot get more than a four hour burn. Checked for leaks and all. The short burn times are becoming irratating. I use hardwood, seasoned one and a half to two year dried.


 
What is the stove top when you reload?  I'm not sure if you're a newer burner or not but new burners tend to believe once the load is down to coals it is done.  Maybe start with walking us through the loading process and how you're turning it down.  Include time intervals, temps at those intervals and pictures if you can. 

I had a Lopi Endeavor(smaller than your Olympic) before my BK and while it couldn't hold a candle to my BK in terms of burn times it would easily go 8+ hours depending on the weather.  I would have coals after 12 but it wasn't heating anything at that point.  When it was cold it would hold temps for about 5-6 hours and decline after that.


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## webby3650 (Feb 24, 2013)

4barrel said:


> Checked for leaks and all.


Have you replaced the door gasket? Even if you have, do a dollar bill test on it. The door gasket is really the only place for that stove to be leaking air.


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## 4barrel (Feb 25, 2013)

I have checked for leaks and found none. Door gasket is super tight. I stack my wood in a criss cross pattern for good airflow. The stove has always burned like this since the day I put it in. Maybe the draft on it is to strong, it has 28 feet of stainless liner in it, i don't know. I will load it up with about 3/4 load, if I try to fill it completely it tends too run to hot. I will bring temps at stovetop to about 450-500 then close the air control, leaving just a crack open. It simply will not burn more than 4 hours. Stove top temps during operation are between 500-600 degrees. I reload between 300-350. Secondary burns are inconsistent, sometimes I get them sometimes not. Whether the secondary burn is on or not, the burn times are the same.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 25, 2013)

4barrel said:


> I have checked for leaks and found none. Door gasket is super tight. *I stack my wood in a criss cross pattern for good airflow. The stove has always burned like this since the day I put it in*. Maybe the draft on it is to strong, it has 28 feet of stainless liner in it, i don't know.* I will load it up with about 3/4 load, if I try to fill it completely it tends too run to hot.* I will bring temps at stovetop to about 450-500 then close the air control, *leaving just a crack open*. It simply will not burn more than 4 hours. Stove top temps during operation are between 500-600 degrees.* I reload between 300-350*. Secondary burns are inconsistent, sometimes I get them sometimes not. Whether the secondary burn is on or not, the burn times are the same.


 
Everything I have bolded, is your problem. Lets take this in steps:
1. Load the wood all same direction. If you can load with the splits ends facing front to back or North to South as they say, you will be able to pack the wood in tighter and higher. Criss cross is just giving it too much air, and also leaving too much air space that could be filled with wood.
2. Before you blame the stove, and exchange it only to have the same issues, learn the stove and the best ways to burn it.
3. I have 27' of rigid insulated liner, and yes it drafts hard sometimes, but I never get less than 12 hour burn times, unless I don't do a full load and use soft wood. So liner height should not be an issue.
4.Load it up full with LARGE splits. Criss crossing with smaller splits will only last a short time, and it not the way to achieve a good long burn. Criss cross is for short, hot fires, as you are experiencing.
5.Try closing the air leaver completely, you won't constantly have secondaries, nor do you need secondaries constantly. If the stove rises to temp and heats the home, this is all that matters. Close that puppy all the way down and see what happens. Just know the difference between smoldering splits and glowing burning splits. These stoves burn top down. If it reaches cruising temp and holds, your heating and burning efficiently. and I guarantee it will last much longer than 4 hours. If it smolders and temp drops, open the air up again and get the temp a lil higher, then close back down again. You need to experiment and learn the stove and how to get the best burn out of it. Not just load it, get a temp, close it up some and expect it to magically do as you wish. Note, if you wood is not dry as it should be, your stove top temps will be lower and the wood will smolder, and you will need to leave the air open and lose burn times & temps. Again with 28' of liner, you should be needing to close that air lever all the way.
6. Patience is truly a virtue with wood burning. Try letting is burn down to 200 or 250 before reloading. Again, with good dry wood, you should be able to have just a nice level NOT THICK AS HELL coal bed on the bottom, and load a new full LARGE splits load on the coal bed, and obtain what you seek to achieve.

Large splits , then fill in with mediums and smalls. The larges will consume firebox air space, and keep the fires from hell from coming and will also bring the longer burn times.
Before getting rid of a stove for issues that are not the stove, but the operator & most likely wood, put the time in to learn the stove. As I said, otherwise you will be complaining about the next stove, and the one after that, and the one after that. etc. etc.


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## Highbeam (Feb 25, 2013)

I think when he said he stacks the wood criss-crossed he means out in the storage area, not in the firebox.

If you are to replace the stove, the PE super firebox is a great choice for your home as is the BK line. Both are great stoves, best performance in their class, that being best non-cat and best cat.

The outputs that BG quoted are from marketing brochures and I fear that they are not apples to apples. In any case, max output is not a way to size your stove. Your current stove should be adequate for 1600SF once you get it dialed in.


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## 4barrel (Feb 25, 2013)

Hogwildz, believe me I have tried it all, north south,east west. big splits small splits, you name it, the results are always the same. What I meant originally was I always thought that while cats burned longer, they don't put out as much heat as a non cat. Anyway. for all you Pacific energy owners, how long of a burn are you getting from you're super 27 and summit with useful heat say 350 degrees and over.


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## mellow (Feb 25, 2013)

If this is a freestanding stove setup,  have you tried putting a damper in to cut down on your draft to see if that helps?


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## 4barrel (Feb 25, 2013)

Mellow, no I have not. With a Olympic, you can use them as a insert or freestanding stove. I have it as a insert. I have become irritated with the short burn times and am looking at a Pacific energy if I can fit it in my fireplace.


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## Highbeam (Feb 25, 2013)

4barrel said:


> What I meant originally was I always thought that while cats burned longer, they don't put out as much heat as a non cat.


 
So here's the deal with that. A stove of a certain size holds a certain amount of fuel and a fixed amount of total heat can be delivered from the stove to the room. The cat stove doesn't pull heat out of thin air, it just allows you to release the heat more slowly. You can also turn the cat stove up and get a much higher burn rate. You get a range of output. The non-cat must deliver the heat fast because the emissions equipment does not allow a slow burn. You choose a non-cat stove based on firebox size since your output is relatively fixed.

In the end, when you replace a non-cat stove with a cat you end up with a larger cat stove.

I replaced a non-cat 2 CF hearthstone with a 2.85 CF BK cat stove and am very happy with the improvement in burn times and even heat.


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## rideau (Feb 25, 2013)

Cat stoves do not put out less heat than non-cats. They actually produce significantly more heat from the same wood compared to non-cats because they burn more of the volatile gases. The heat can be delivered at the same high rate as a non cat or, when a lot of heat is not required, at a slower rate for a longer period than a non-cat.

I would second the suggestion for a damper in your stove pipe.  If you have tried all the methods that should give you a proper burn, and are using good wood, the remaining factor is too much draft.  Inability to close the air down enough will result in too rich an oxygen supplky and too rapid transit of air through the stove, and resultant short burn time with a lot of heat going up the chimney.  Likely also run relatively high flue temps.  Certainly worth trying a damper before trying a new stove.  Find the reason for the unsatisfactory burn times, since it is not inherent in the stove.


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## begreen (Feb 25, 2013)

That is not universally true. The Englander 30NC for example burns cleaner than some cats like the BK King or Princess. But that is only part of the story. The other part is the heat efficiency of the stove. That is how much is radiated/convected into the room vs up the flue. Again this varies, some stoves being better than others. The Wittus TwinFire being a non-cat example at 93% efficiency.


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## 4barrel (Feb 25, 2013)

I don' know what to do hear. I definately am not going thru another winter tending to this stove every 3 to 4 hours. Either way, if I want to get a Blaze King I will have to have my fireplace reworked to make it larger so the BK can fit in. Unfortunately, I don't think I have ever seen a good used BK on craigslist in my area. Wonder how much the fireplace rework will cost,aarrrggh.


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## Highbeam (Feb 25, 2013)

Why must you rework the chimney. The princess uses the same 6" flue. Are you trying to stick with an insert?


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## rideau (Feb 25, 2013)

Be Green, Poiint taken. My statement was a generalization. However, in the main, it is correct.


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## 4barrel (Feb 25, 2013)

My fireplace is to short height wise and too shallow depth wise. I bought this Olympic because it was the only model that would fit in the fireplace. I wanted to buy a Pacific energy but they would not fit. I don't even know if a fireplace can be reworked like this, that is be made taller and deeper.Any masoners out there? I would like to go with a freestanding stove this time.


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## Hickorynut (Feb 25, 2013)

4barrell, I feel your pain.  I am getting the same poor results with my lopi freedom.  Maximum of three to four hour burn times with a load of quality wood.  I think they let too much air into the stove with the damper closed plus I do have a strong draft.  Also, I get dirty glass almost after every burn cycle.  Setting the alarm once, more often twice getting up to reload sucks big time.  I say dump the lopi and don't look back.


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## weatherguy (Feb 25, 2013)

Can you just extend the hearth and put a freestander in front of the fireplace? Also, where do you live? Climate may play a patrt in what stove is best for you. I would personally go with a hybrid for my next stove but I do love my Princess.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 25, 2013)

Hickorynut said:


> 4barrell, I feel your pain. I am getting the same poor results with my lopi freedom. Maximum of three to four hour burn times with a load of quality wood. I think they let too much air into the stove with the damper closed plus I do have a strong draft. Also, I get dirty glass almost after every burn cycle. Setting the alarm once, more often twice getting up to reload sucks big time. I say dump the lopi and don't look back.


Dirty glass may indicate burning too low of tamps and not dry enough wood.
If we all only got some dollars for everyone that is so certain their wood is quality, when it really is not.
Setting off alarms is truly not good, and downright dangerous.


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## Bret Chase (Feb 25, 2013)

4barrel said:


> I have a Avalon Olympic right now, house is about 1600 sq ft. with no wall insulation( hope to take care of that soon). This stove works good, lots of heat, great convection system, but I cannot get more than a four hour burn. Checked for leaks and all. The short burn times are becoming irratating. I use hardwood, seasoned one and a half to two year dried.


 
I have a smoke dragon... and I get 6 hours out of my free Better 'N Bens... if I load that sumb**ch up.... unless it's -15F out... I just blast myself out of the house...


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## mellow (Feb 26, 2013)

Go freestanding with a rear vent exit,  plenty of them out there to choose from.


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## 4barrel (Feb 26, 2013)

Hickorynut, you know what i am talking about. The stove works good don't get me wrong, lots of heat, great convection system, but the burn times are driving me crazy. I think you're about the air inlet, it blows air directly over the wood. I read somewhere on this site that Pacific energy stoves curculate air around the firebox instead. Sounds like a better way of doing it. Any bricklayers out there, is it possible to increase the size of a existing fireplace.


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## 4barrel (Feb 26, 2013)

Weatherguy, I wish I could. The main problem I have is the depth of the fireplace is to shallow, only about 14 inches.I live in MA like you.


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## Highbeam (Feb 26, 2013)

4barrel said:


> Any bricklayers out there, is it possible to increase the size of a existing fireplace.


 
Of course it is possible. Is it worth the cost? I removed the masonry fireplace and chimney in my home to install a regular freestanding stove and vertical flue. Any work on a fireplace is polishing a turd.


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## rideau (Feb 26, 2013)

4barrel said:


> Weatherguy, I wish I could. The main problem I have is the depth of the fireplace is to shallow, only about 14 inches.I live in MA like you.


Do you have an old home?  Is that a Rumford fireplace?


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## rideau (Feb 26, 2013)

Hogwildz said:


> Dirty glass may indicate burning too low of tamps and not dry enough wood.
> If we all only got some dollars for everyone that is so certain their wood is quality, when it really is not.
> Setting off alarms is truly not good, and downright dangerous.


He's setting the alarm to wake up and reload.....


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## jeff_t (Feb 26, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Of course it is possible. Is it worth the cost? I removed the masonry fireplace and chimney in my home to install a regular freestanding stove and vertical flue. Any work on a fireplace is polishing a turd.



I did the same thing. Shoulda done it years ago.


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## begreen (Feb 27, 2013)

Same here. It was a two day, dirty process, but I am glad I did it. In earthquake country old masonry chimneys are a liability.


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## dyerkutn (Mar 23, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> A non-cat stove doesn't put out more heat. If the stoves are equally sized the output will be nearly the same. The difference comes when the air is turned down to low. The cat stoves will cruise low and slow, non-cat stoves are hard to slow down once they get cruising and. The Super27 is a good stove with burn times of 8-12 hours. The BK is gonna give you consistent 18-24 hour burns.


Hopefully someone is still reading this thread. I am confused about cats being able to go low and slow and non-cats hard to slow down. The dealers I have visited have said that if you want to slow the fire down ( in a non-cat) you just put in less wood or close the air more. Is that not true? I currently have a very old cat stove and have been worrying that it would be hard to switch as I am know how to manage it pretty well,


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## webby3650 (Mar 23, 2013)

Sure you can always put in less wood, but you also wont get a long burn time. Cats allow you to stuff it full and also get that long burn time, something a non-cat simply can't do, in comparison.


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## rideau (Mar 24, 2013)

A cat will burn the smoke and the volatile gases produced by combustion at a much lower temperature than a non cat, so it will produce heat cleanly at a low temperature.  Non cat stoves cannot burn those gases until the stove is much hotter, so produce a dirty burn until they get to a high temperature, and the potential heat of the smoke and gases is lost up the chimney until they do reach a high temperature.  They burn  wood getting to the high temperature, and burn wood faster at  the higher temperature. The cat stoves can cruise along with little or no no  flame emanating from the wood while they burn the smoke and gases, producing significant heat.  The wood is very slowly consumed while they do this, because there is very little oxygen in the fire box.  A non-cat simply cannot do that.  It will smoulder and create creosote and not heat, if you try to do it.  You can adjust heat output of a non cat, just like you can of a cat, by load size and split size, but you canot adjust air down as you can in a cat,  so simply cannot produce as slow burnign a fire as you can in a cat and still produce meaningful heat, or produce heat cleanly.   Cats are inherently more efficient than non cats.  If you are used to using a cat, I cannot see any reason you would consider switching to a non-cat stove.


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> . . .I am confused about cats being able to go low and slow and non-cats hard to slow down. The dealers I have visited have said that if you want *to slow the fire down* (in a non-cat) you just put in less wood or *close the air more. Is that not true?*


It's a matter of degree, but if the dealers are leading you to believe that you can close down a non-cat like your cat stove, that is not true. Below a certain point, you can't "close the air more" on a non-cat stove, if not for technical reasons, then because the EPA says you can't.

http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

4barrel said:


> Hogwildz, believe me I have tried it all, north south,east west. big splits small splits, you name it, the results are always the same. What I meant originally was I always thought that while cats burned longer, they don't put out as much heat as a non cat. Anyway. for all you Pacific energy owners, how long of a burn are you getting from you're super 27 and summit with useful heat say 350 degrees and over.


I have a PE Alderlea T-5 with the exact same firebox and I get 10-12 hr. burns all the time.. I only expected and sought to get 8 hr. burns so I was pleasantly surprised with the longer burns. I live in SE Mass. and heat about the same size home as you.

Ray


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> It's a matter of degree, but if the dealers are leading you to believe that you can close down a non-cat like your cat stove, that is not true. Below a certain point, you can't "close the air more" on a non-cat stove, if not for technical reasons, then because the EPA says you can't.
> 
> http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm


That article is way too technical for me. Besides  the Woodstocks and Majestics, what other good cat stoves are on the market (Blaze King is out of the questions--no dealers anywhere near me)


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## Locust Post (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> That article is way too technical for me. Besides the Woodstocks and Majestics, what other good cat stoves are on the market (Blaze King is out of the questions--no dealers anywhere near me)


I just purchased a Buck 91 cat have yet to find any bad reviews on them ....might look to see if any dealers in your area.


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## rdust (Mar 24, 2013)

4barrel said:


> Hogwildz, believe me I have tried it all, north south,east west. big splits small splits, you name it, the results are always the same. What I meant originally was I always thought that while cats burned longer, they don't put out as much heat as a non cat.* Anyway. for all you Pacific energy owners, how long of a burn are you getting from you're super 27 and summit with useful heat say 350 degrees and over*.


 



raybonz said:


> I have a PE Alderlea T-5 with the exact same firebox and I get 10-12 hr. burns all the time.. I only expected and sought to get 8 hr. burns so I was pleasantly surprised with the longer burns. I live in SE Mass. and heat about the same size home as you.
> 
> Ray


 
You're getting burn times in the 10-12 hour range with a stove top of 350+ 12 hour in? That's pretty good!


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

Locust Post said:


> I just purchased a Buck 91 cat have yet to find any bad reviews on them ....might look to see if any dealers in your area.


Another brand!! They seem to be unending. According to the Buck website the dealer around here is a place I was planning on visiting Thurs--not too far from me.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

rdust said:


> You're getting burn times in the 10-12 hour range with a stove top of 350+ 12 hour in? That's pretty good!


Honestly I don't look at stovetop temp what I get is a warm stove with blower still running and plenty of coals for relight.. This stove is rated over 80% efficient and the burn times agree with this. I consider this good for any 2 cu. ft. stove..

Ray


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## rdust (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> Honestly I don't look at stovetop temp what I get is a warm stove with blower still running and plenty of coals for relight.. This stove is rated over 80% efficient and the burn times agree with this. I consider this good for any 2 cu. ft. stove..
> 
> Ray


 
My Endeavor was 2.2 and I could relight after 10-12 hour with no issue but useful heat was long gone at that point even if the blower was still running.  If you get bored sometime take a stove top temp reading at reload.  I'd be curious to know what the temp was 12 hours in.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

rdust said:


> My Endeavor was 2.2 and I could relight after 10-12 hour with no issue but useful heat was long gone at that point even if the blower was still running. If you get bored sometime take a stove top temp reading at reload. I'd be curious to know what the temp was 12 hours in.


The cast iron stores lots of heat and dissipates heat for a long time. At 4AM I am anything but bored lol so that's not gonna happen. My house is warm and the stove is up and running in 15 minutes with no fussing and is much easier than my CDW cat stove in the AM I can say that! The coldest my house has been was the morning after the blizzard the stove was down to coals and the house was 58 degrees but it was 6 degrees and windy out and we had no power other than that one time the house is around 75 degrees. Soapstone stoves are also good in the mass department and give good results for this reason too..

Ray


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## rdust (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> At 4AM I am anything but bored lol so that's not gonna happen.
> 
> Ray


 
12 hour loads means twice a day loading, check it when you load at 4pm.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

rdust said:


> 12 hour loads means twice a day loading, check it when you load at 4pm.


Generally I crank the air around this time to reduce the coal bed then full load around 6PM-7PM..If it's very cold we run it hotter and this affects the coal bed too..

Ray


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

Rdust in milder weather I run smaller hotter loads this is where cat stoves are easier to run.. My wife loads the stove when it's cold and I am late or we just need more heat.. She doesn't care what any t-stat says she just closes the air to 1/8th and walks away lol.. The secondaries still get going and this to me is a good thing as she has no interest an anything other than being warm and no playing with the stove or looking at thermometers.. This created issues with the cat stalling on the CDW and creosote issues. No regrets buying the T5 here 

Ray


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> That article is way too technical for me. . .


You could ignore most of the numbers and just read the narrative, but the point I wanted you to take away from the article is that the EPA does not allow anyone to make a non-cat stove with air that can be "closed" like the air on your cat stove can be. If a dealer tells you otherwise, they are trying to BS you.


			
				John Gulland said:
			
		

> http://www.gulland.ca/florida_bungalow_syndrome.htm
> . . .The stove must burn the wood, meaning the fire does not go out, and it must not smoulder too much, even when the air control is turned as low as it will go, or the stove will fail the test. To meet the low-burn part of the test, *the stove designer must build in a fixed minimum air supply opening*. In other words, a sizeable combustion air leak. . .


 



			
				dyerkutn said:
			
		

> Besides the Woodstocks and Majestics, what other good cat stoves are on the market (Blaze King is out of the question--no dealers anywhere near me)


 

Here's a roundup of the usual suspects(from another thread. . .I reckon I'd now add the Lopi Cape Cod to the list.)



ddddddden said:


> . . .All of the Buck 91 comments that I can recall have been positive. You could do worse than a big catalytic stove, IMO. OTOH, there are a lot of nice stoves in the $2500 range, which is what I think a new Buck 91 runs. One stove I would have on my list is the Blaze King Princess insert. It's only 2.8 cu ft vs. 4+ cu ft for the Buck, but you may not need 4+ cu ft. In that case, there's also the 2.6-cu-ft Buck 80. One thing to consider, in addition to firebox size, is flue size. The jumbo stoves require an 8" flue, which will cost more than a 6" and may be more difficult to install. Here are some other big cat stoves, most available as inserts:
> 
> http://kumastoves.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=15
> 
> ...


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> You could ignore most of the numbers and just read the narrative, but the point I wanted you to take away from the article is just that the EPA does not allow anyone to make a non-cat stove with air that can be "closed" like the air on your cat stove can be. If a dealer tells you otherwise, they are trying to BS you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion but I am in MA, not VA, and I need something much smaller. maybe a little over 2.0 so the list of usual suspects won't work! But thanks anyway. I will restate the question more  clearly. Besides the Majestic and the Woodstock are there any good cat stoves that I could get in my area that are small to medium. Does the cat/no cat dilemma make less difference with a small stove than a large one..


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> Sorry for the confusion but I am in MA, not VA, and I need something much smaller. maybe a little over 2.0 so the list of usual suspects won't work! But thanks anyway. I will restate the question more clearly. Besides the Majestic and the Woodstock are there any good cat stoves that I could get in my area that are small to medium. . .


Yes, in that thread, we were talking about large stoves, but that list covers most of the manufacturers of cat stoves.

*~2-cu-ft cat stoves:*
Woodstock
Buck
BK



> Does the cat/no cat dilemma make less difference with a small stove than a large one?


That's a good question. Offhand, I'd say yeah, because not being able to close the air becomes more of an issue as the size of the load of wood increases. . .there are no 4-cu-ft non-cats.  OTOH, it's generally easier to get longer burn times with a bigger stove than with a smaller stove. . .

How 'bout this article:


> http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoebt.htm
> 
> The problem with maintaining secondary combustion in big fireboxes:When a BIG load reaches Stage 2, the "minimum" airflow required for secondary combustion can be substantial. Providing enough airflow to meet EPA low-emissions standards during Stage 2 of the burn presents a major engineering challenge to designers of size-large wood stoves. The most popular solution seems to be the incorporation of a "stop" in the design of the draft control, so it can't be closed down below a certain point. While this method might get a stove through EPA testing, there's a big downside: with no "low" draft control setting available, an abundance of combustion air is delivered to the fire even when it isn't needed, causing faster than necessary fuel consumption during the other stages of the fire. This results in frustrated owners of size-large stoves who find they can't "hold" the fire as long as they might want to between refuelings. . .


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## rideau (Mar 24, 2013)

Hey, folks.   A heads up.  I think dyerkutn needs a stove with only ember protection requirement, as I think his floor is ceramic, and he has a very limited space for the stove, which is in a traffic area.  I have no idea which stoves those would be.  Can anyone help?  He is going to need a stove that allows pretty close clearances too, I think. 
He may also prefer to go with a steel stove, because of support issues.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

rideau said:


> Hey, folks. A heads up. I think dyerkutn needs a stove with only ember protection requirement, as I think his floor is ceramic, and he has a very limited space for the stove, which is in a traffic area. I have no idea which stoves those would be. Can anyone help? He is going to need a stove that allows pretty close clearances too, I think.
> He may also prefer to go with a steel stove, because of support issues.


I compiled this list a while back but it is not complete of ember protection only stoves:

All Pacific Energy Alderlea stoves
All Pacific Energy models
Lopi Endeavor
Lopi Revere
Blaze King Chinook
Blaze King Princess
Hampton H200 (unsure, manual gives conflicting information)
Regency CS1200
Jotul F100
Jotul Oslo 500
Jotul Rangely
Jotul F55 I think too..

Ray


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I compiled this list a while back but it is not complete of ember protection only stoves:
> 
> All Pacific Energy Alderlea stoves
> All Pacific Energy models
> ...


This is absolutely fantastic. THe best possible info I could get.  THe only one I already knew of was the Jotul 400 Castine which is not your list. Thanks so much. I have been looking at the Jotel, Lopi, and PE. By the way, I never mentioned this but I am a "she". I was happy to see that there are other females that post here. Hallelulah I can finally start narrowing my search. The only glitch would be if the state requires me to have the hearth pad for the trade out program. I will e-mail them to find out.


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

Oh yeah, the infamous _other thread. . ._



ddddddden said:


> If you think this is good, wait til you post up pics, measurements, floorplan, and the hearth.com collective supercomputer goes to work on your install analysis.


Well, how 'bout we do this ^^^ ?

Maybe get a bit more specific than this. . .





dyerkutn said:


> . . .Right now my new big issue is realizing I need a hearth pad for most stoves--this could be a major problem as my space is quite tight--not too tight for rear and side clearance if the pad were not needed but definitely tight for a large raised area.


 

Otherwise. . .I dunno, of the stoves Ray listed, I like the T5.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> This is absolutely fantastic. THe best possible info I could get. THe only one I already knew of was the Jotul 400 Castine which is not your list. Thanks so much. I have been looking at the Jotel, Lopi, and PE. By the way, I never mentioned this but I am a "she". I was happy to see that there are other females that post here. Hallelulah I can finally start narrowing my search. The only glitch would be if the state requires me to have the hearth pad for the trade out program. I will e-mail them to find out.


Glad it helped but many of these are not cat stoves. I run a T5 here in Mass. with 1632 sq. ft. and it heats my home very well. Stoves that have stiff hearth requirements are a pet peeve of mine and why I started compiling this partial list..

Ray


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> This is absolutely fantastic. THe best possible info I could get. THe only one I already knew of was the Jotul 400 Castine which is not your list. Thanks so much. I have been looking at the Jotel, Lopi, and PE. By the way, I never mentioned this but I am a "she". I was happy to see that there are other females that post here. Hallelulah I can finally start narrowing my search. The only glitch would be if the state requires me to have the hearth pad for the trade out program. I will e-mail them to find out.


I don't think a hearth pad would have anything to do with a rebate especially if your floor is already ember protected and this is all the stove manufacturer requires..

Ray


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I don't think a hearth pad would have anything to do with a rebate especially if your floor is already ember protected and this is all the stove manufacturer requires..
> 
> Ray


+1
I don't see why the state would want to get into that, other than requiring that your install be inspected and approved by your local county, city, etc.


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## jeff_t (Mar 24, 2013)

The PE Super Series http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacific.htm. They are all the same firebox with a different look. I think it would be my first choice for a non-cat.

I have an older one in the garage, waiting for installation in another house. I have only burned one fire in it, outside, so I am not qualified to talk it up


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

jeff_t said:


> The PE Super Series http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/pacific.htm. They are all the same firebox with a different look. I think it would be my first choice for a non-cat.


Yes I believe the stoves on that link all use the same firebox..


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## rdust (Mar 24, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> Yes, in that thread, we were talking about large stoves, but that list covers most of the manufacturers of cat stoves.
> 
> *~2-cu-ft cat stoves:*
> Woodstock
> ...


 
BK Sirocco 20 and Chinook 20 are just a touch under 2 cubic feet and only require ember protection.


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

rdust said:


> BK Sirocco 20 and Chinook 20 are just a touch under 2 cubic feet and only require ember protection.





dyerkutn said:


> (Blaze King is out of the question--no dealers anywhere near me.)




That's why I crossed BK off of the list.
Hard to believe that there are no BK dealers in the Boston area though. Maybe she's going by the dysfunctional dealer locator on the BK website. . .


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

rdust said:


> BK Sirocco 20 and Chinook 20 are just a touch under 2 cubic feet and only require ember protection.


Added them to my list..


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> Glad it helped but many of these are not cat stoves. I run a T5 here in Mass. with 1632 sq. ft. and it heats my home very well. Stoves that have stiff hearth requirements are a pet peeve of mine and why I started compiling this partial list..
> 
> Ray


Yes, sadly after all my research I may have to end up with  non-cat due to the hearth issue.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> Yes, sadly after all my research I may have to end up with non-cat due to the hearth issue.


I ran a cat stove for 25 years and now the T5 on it's 2nd year and have been happy with it.. Not sure why you feel a secondary burn stove is a bad thing..

Ray


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> That's why I crossed BK off of the list.
> Hard to believe that there are no BK dealers in the Boston area though. Maybe she's going by the dysfunctional dealer locator on the BK website. . .





ddddddden said:


> That's why I crossed BK off of the list.
> Hard to believe that there are no BK dealers in the Boston area though. Maybe she's going by the dysfunctional dealer locator on the BK website. . .


oops--messed up on the posting--yes I did go by the website--any other ideas of how to locate them.


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## jeff_t (Mar 24, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> Maybe she's going by the dysfunctional dealer locator on the BK website. . .



Yeah, that's a pretty useless feature....

I found a couple of others by accident. Most that I called on that list that were near me were equally useless.


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> oops--messed up on the posting--yes I did go by the website--any other ideas of how to locate them.


Edit the title of your other thread: "Need a *BK *dealer in Boston Area."


One detail that will help to narrow down the list of stoves:

Do you want/need a top-venting or rear-venting stove?


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> One detail that will help to narrow it down:
> 
> Do you want/need a top-venting or rear-venting stove?


my pipe goes straight up 20 feet from the stove directly through the roof. The details that you suggested I send---I have a 480 square foot open space which with vaulted ceilings at a variety of heights ranging from 9 1/2 to 20 feet. This area includes an 8 x 8 living room which includes the location of the stove but does not include the area that is filled with a large L shaped sofa. It includes a half flight to the entrance area as well as the entrance area, and also my kitchen with eating area. The kitchen cabinets are well below the ceiling and there is open space above them making that area continuous with the rest of the open space. Beyond that whole area is a 180ish square foot room in which I have a large dining table. That room is long. Beyond that is one small bedroom and the door to the finished basement. The other bedrooms are off a little hallway around the bend from the stream of warm air. So I want to heat the open area, the long dining room and the small bedroom. If I can direct air to the other bedrooms with a fan--so much the better. THo  the SF is small, because of the height of the ceilings I figure it is equivalent to about 1100 SF of a normal 8' ceiling. I am about the put in a ceiling fan between the living room and kitchen/eating area but closer to the LR and about  6 (linear by the floor) feet in front of the stove.


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I ran a cat stove for 25 years and now the T5 on it's 2nd year and have been happy with it.. Not sure why you feel a secondary burn stove is a bad thing..
> 
> Ray


I guess because I have gotten so used to managing the one I have--kind of know its cycle and quirks. A lot of what I read said they are better for controlling air and doing a slow burn. However, I will strongly take into account your current experience since you have done both and are clearly much more experienced than me.





ddddddden said:


> Make the title of your other thread "Need a *BK *dealer in Boston Area."
> 
> 
> One detail that will help to narrow down the list of stoves:
> ...


great idea dddddden?  You have been a super help and Ray and everyone else too.


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## ddddddden (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> great idea dddddden? You have been a super help and Ray and everyone else too.


"What it's all about."


Good move on the ceiling fan.
Putting a small fan on the floor blowing cooler air out of the bedroom toward the stove would probably help too. . .the theory is that it's easier to move cold air than hot air.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> I guess because I have gotten so used to managing the one I have--kind of know its cycle and quirks. A lot of what I read said they are better for controlling air and doing a slow burn. However, I will strongly take into account your current experience since you have done both and are clearly much more experienced than me.
> great idea dddddden? You have been a super help and Ray and everyone else too.


What stove are you burning in now? The learning curve on the T5 was short.. You have one lever that controls primary and secondary air at the same time.. Where the learning comes in is the shoulder seasons where filling the stove and lighting a match will drive you out of the house lol.. Larger splits tightly packed and smaller loads are the answer here which comes with experience.. BTW what town are you located in? I live in Carver and work in S. Boston.

Ray


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> What stove are you burning in now? The learning curve on the T5 was short.. You have one lever that controls primary and secondary air at the same time.. Where the learning comes in is the shoulder seasons where filling the stove and lighting a match will drive you out of the house lol.. Larger splits tightly packed and smaller loads are the answer here which comes with experience.. BTW what town are you located in? I live in Carver and work in S. Boston.
> 
> Ray


I am in Lexington--you have quite a commute. I am using a 1985 Dutchwest India 224CCL--knock off of the DWC and looks just like it.  I first posted on Pre 1988 DWC forum a couple of years ago to find some parts and a manual and get advice on using it and to look for a service person. 

I went to a dealer yesterday who said I cannot possibly be using the cat because it is so old. But doesn't that depend on the number of hours or cords you burn in a year. This stove has seen light use compared to most people who post here. From the cat thermomet it gets up to 500 in about 15 minutes. When I close the by pass it gets up to 800 about 10 minutes and when I close the primary air it shoots up to 1000 and stays there. I have checked my chiminey outside and I don't seem to have any smoke when it is closed up. I have the pipe cleaned and they say it does not collect that much, though that same dealer said she would not trust the chimney sweep I use.


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> I am in Lexington--you have quite a commute. I am using a 1985 Dutchwest India 224CCL--knock off of the DWC and looks just like it. I first posted on Pre 1988 DWC forum a couple of years ago to find some parts and a manual and get advice on using it and to look for a service person.
> 
> I went to a dealer yesterday who said I cannot possibly be using the cat because it is so old. But doesn't that depend on the number of hours or cords you burn in a year. This stove has seen light use compared to most people who post here. From the cat thermomet it gets up to 500 in about 15 minutes. When I close the by pass it gets up to 800 about 10 minutes and when I close the primary air it shoots up to 1000 and stays there. I have checked my chiminey outside and I don't seem to have any smoke when it is closed up. I have the pipe cleaned and they say it does not collect that much, though that same dealer said she would not trust the chimney sweep I use.


ps what is this reward point system that came in my alert box?


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> I am in Lexington--you have quite a commute. I am using a 1985 Dutchwest India 224CCL--knock off of the DWC and looks just like it. I first posted on Pre 1988 DWC forum a couple of years ago to find some parts and a manual and get advice on using it and to look for a service person.
> 
> I went to a dealer yesterday who said I cannot possibly be using the cat because it is so old. But doesn't that depend on the number of hours or cords you burn in a year. This stove has seen light use compared to most people who post here. From the cat thermomet it gets up to 500 in about 15 minutes. When I close the by pass it gets up to 800 about 10 minutes and when I close the primary air it shoots up to 1000 and stays there. I have checked my chiminey outside and I don't seem to have any smoke when it is closed up. I have the pipe cleaned and they say it does not collect that much, though that same dealer said she would not trust the chimney sweep I use.


Yes I drive 47 miles each way.. Been doing it 5 years so I am used to it.. As for your stove you have the small CDW stove and it isn't a knockoff it was bought by VC years ago and they still make them except in VT instead of China. Your dealer knows nothing about cats as yours sounds like it's working just fine.. I owned the same vintage stove as yours except I had the large CDW and decided to replace it due to parts availability plus creosote issues and I was tired of fiddling with it.. Amazingly I got $350.00 for it! The learning curve on the old CDW's was huge I will say that! Quite a few old CDW burners changed over to the Alderlea stoves oddly enough and the reports they posted convinced me that was the direction I wanted to go.. I really like to see the rolling fire in this stove and the window requires only occasional cleaning! The CDW windows generally stayed black and even the new cat stoves tend to do this when run for long burns but will clean up if you crank them up.. BTW welcome to the forum 

Ray


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> ps what is this reward point system that came in my alert box?


Nothing to be concerned about it's forum type stuff.. More likes give "awards", more posts will change you from a new member to another lofty title lol.. This is a good forum with good people and have met a few members up at Woodstock factory one of them being a woman (GammaRay). Kick up your feet and relax you'll like it here 

Ray


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## dyerkutn (Mar 24, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I was tired of fiddling with it


 


raybonz said:


> The learning curve on the old CDW's was huge I will say that!


 


raybonz said:


> The CDW windows generally stayed black


 


raybonz said:


> Your dealer knows nothing about cats as yours sounds like it's working just fine.


Glad to hear the descriptions of your tangling with the CDW. Makes me confirm that I have not been doing anything wrong.

I will definitely not go back to that dealer!! I thought from other posts that I had seen that I was managing it OK.


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## raybonz (Mar 24, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> Glad to hear the descriptions of your tangling with the CDW. Makes me confirm that I have not been doing anything wrong.
> 
> I will definitely not go back to that dealer!! I thought from other posts that I had seen that I was managing it OK.


LOL wrestling more than tangling! Most of the time it would behave OK and at times not backpuff for a month then do it again!! Just when I would think I had it figured it out it would throw another curve.. The T5 was ridiculously simple by comparison.. It is NOT the operator it IS the stove !

Ray


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## HotCoals (Mar 24, 2013)

You want a long slow burn get a cat...you want a shorter burn with more heat get a tube..pretty simple ..but good luck with whatever you do.
With temps above 35-40 i can do 24 hour loads. A little warmer out yet and 40-48 hour burns are not unheard of.
That's with really good seasoned hardwood..about 80 lbs of it..lol.


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## dyerkutn (Mar 26, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> Yes, in that thread, we were talking about large stoves, but that list covers most of the manufacturers of cat stoves.
> 
> *~2-cu-ft cat stoves:*
> Woodstock
> ...


this article is very helpfu


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## dyerkutn (Mar 26, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> That's why I crossed BK off of the list.
> Hard to believe that there are no BK dealers in the Boston area though. Maybe she's going by the dysfunctional dealer locator on the BK website. . .


Just ran across a 2009 thread about finding BK dealers is New England--same complaint--very hard to find--some people drive 3 or 4 hours to get one. I don't think I will do that what with limited time and not even knowing if I would like it. will stick closer to home.


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## ddddddden (Mar 27, 2013)

dyerkutn said:


> Just ran across a 2009 thread about finding BK dealers is New England--same complaint--very hard to find--some people drive 3 or 4 hours to get one. I don't think I will do that what with limited time and not even knowing if I would like it. . .


If you're okay with the price and the looks(the Chinook is easy on the eyes), disliking a BK is not likely, especially if you're already used to a cat stove and have dry wood. What's not to like about 20-hour burns? Seems like anyone who gets a BK thinks it's the perfect stove. They have exploded in popularity in the past few years, at least on this site, and seem to be gaining momentum in the east. . .hard to believe there's not a dealer around Boston. As the season winds down, things are a lil' slow around here. Try sending a message(Inbox -->Start Conversation) to BKVP. 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/members/bkvp.18988/


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## Woody Stover (Mar 27, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> What's not to like about 20-hour burns? Seems like anyone who gets a BK thinks it's the perfect stove.


What about the black glass? Are the Chinook/Sirocco any better in this regard? The Fv glass is clear no matter _how_ low I burn it...


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## Highbeam (Mar 27, 2013)

Parts of the glass may be dark or black but the majority of the glass is easily clean enough to see the "fire". That's the real issue, there's very little fire to watch.

20 hours is nothing, the regular sized stoves from BK are rated for 30 hours.


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## ddddddden (Mar 27, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> What about the black glass? Are the Chinook/Sirocco any better in this regard?


To provide a given heat output, a smaller stove is going to burn hotter than a larger stove would, so I'd imagine that the smaller BK's may sport a cleaner firebox/glass, but I don't think we know yet. . .


> The Fv glass is clear no matter _how_ low I burn it...


My Fv stays pretty clean too, but that's not surprising since I burn with enough air for nice secondary flames. (House is not the tightest, so it's nearly impossible to overheat this place with the Fv. . .if it's too warm in here, it's because it's 60°+ outside, and I don't need to be burning anyhow.)




Highbeam said:


> 20 hours is nothing, the regular sized stoves from BK are rated for 30 hours.


The Princess is probably too big for OP's install. I was talking about the 2-cu-ft Chinook/Sirocco, rated for "up to 20 hours," which I feel pretty comfortable saying about the 2-cu-ft Fv too, BTW.
16, 18, 20-hour reloads are pretty standard for me at this time of year. . .basically a very big, very pretty ash bucket at some point, but always hot coals. It will be interesting too see how the new 2-cu-ft BK's compare to the similarly sized Woodstocks.


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## Highbeam (Mar 27, 2013)

The woodstocks have a double pane glass too right? That ought to reduce the blackening.


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## ddddddden (Mar 27, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> The woodstocks have a *double pane glass* too right? That ought to reduce the blackening.


Yes, at least the Fv does. Good point. I've never really thought about the reason for the double pane. I think the cleanliness of the glass also has to do with the air intake / combustion pattern. The Fv tends to get a lot of secondary burn action near the glass, from the airwash. Even if you choke it down for a cat-only burn, it will erupt into flame an hour or so later. . .and keep burning like this for a few hours. My personal style of burning is to encourage secondary flames from the beginning, and I find that the Fv does very well as a "hybrid" heater.


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## ddddddden (Mar 27, 2013)

I think Evilgriff is the only owner of a smaller BK here, so far.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/first-thoughts-on-my-new-bk-sirocco.92546/


evilgriff said:


> Only doing shoulder burns here, kindling and 2-3 small splits so far. I really like this stove. It takes more time to warm up than my Intrepid II, guess that was to be expected. Cat engaged at the lower end of the scale on the thermometer with not any visible smoke outside-this was with coals and one split- 3 small splits after hot coals gave me usable heat 7hr later at low setting. Glass gets a little dirty on left and right lower corners (could be operator error). Fans and convection deck would be good for bigger house than mine-they are installed but first impressions are that I am not ever going to use the fan. I don't have as much wood as I like this year, have a connection to get some more- the ability of this stove to go low go slow looks like it will work for me.


 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/those-of-you-with-blaze-kings.95218/


evilgriff said:


> Been running my BK Sirocco for about 4hrs now, with 5 3" splits in it. It has been on low heat setting for about 2hrs. I have the convection deck installed with fans, never use the fans at all. Current stovetop temp center just in front of convection deck is 418 degrees. 312 degrees on front lip of stove. Cat thermometer is in active range, just slightly left of center. Sq foot of leaky house is 1000. 41 degrees outside, 83 degrees inside in room with stove. 80.4 degrees in kids bedroom ( has remote thermometer as the kid's bedroom temperature is the target temp). In my small house, this stove is barely breathing, I believe it will be running at low temp most of it's life. It's cut my labor for wood in half already compared to my old Intrepid II. Not as pretty or ornate, but works extremely well. Wife never needs to touch it, I have 8 more hours at least before I will need to do anything to it.


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## dyerkutn (Mar 27, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> I think Evilgriff is the only owner of a smaller BK here, so far.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/first-thoughts-on-my-new-bk-sirocco.92546/
> 
> ...


thanks--I checked these out--every bit of information is helpful


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## dyerkutn (Mar 27, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> If you're okay with the price and the looks(the Chinook is easy on the eyes), disliking a BK is not likely, especially if you're already used to a cat stove and have dry wood. What's not to like about 20-hour burns? Seems like anyone who gets a BK thinks it's the perfect stove. They have exploded in popularity in the past few years, at least on this site, and seem to be gaining momentum in the east. . .hard to believe there's not a dealer around Boston. As the season winds down, things are a lil' slow around here. Try sending a message(Inbox -->Start Conversation) to BKVP.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/members/bkvp.18988/


go him by e-mail and he sent me the local dealer


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## _CY_ (Apr 12, 2013)

what's the max burntime for buck 91 cat?


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## ddddddden (Apr 13, 2013)

_CY_ said:


> what's the max burntime for buck 91 cat?


For a more thorough survey of 91 owners, maybe start a new thread with your question as the title. . .



davidmc said:


> I think you will like it....I like mine.
> One think I would like is it to have a little more height in the firebox.
> I get 12 to 14 hrs on a packed load.
> Enjoy
> ...





twobucks said:


> . . .Now on my 2nd buck 91. Moved. Left the first one.
> 
> Ran 14 hours on a small load. Curing the paint. I have a 24 foot chimney. Draws like champ. I expected 4 hours with the tiny amount of fuel. Loaded at 6 and ran till 8 am this morning. Coals and stove at 450-500.
> Buck's a good stove and realistic in it's specs. Very happy with my second catalytic.


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## rideau (Apr 13, 2013)

I think just about any cat stove except the BKs, which are designed to smoulder, burns with a clean window.  The double paned Woodstock's add a layer of insulation which helps the airwash to accomplish burns with very clean glass.  Only area that generally benefits from cleaning is right behind the andirons.  They seem to prevent the window from getting the full benefit if the airwash for cleaning.  The glass there is easy to clean when cool, with a light scrubbing with #0000 steel wool, scotchbrite green nylon pad, or wet newspaper/ash.


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2013)

Some stoves keep the glass cleaner than others. It's more a function of the effectiveness of the air wash system and how the stove is run than whether it has a cat or not. I have seen black glass on the big Bucks and Appalachians too.


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## downeast (Apr 13, 2013)

With permission of all the Experts, may we talk some real world burning ? Please. Indulge this log-winded rant.

Over too many years, too many cords cut and used, many many varieties of wood stoves used in some New England homes, here's what has been learned.
"Non cat" stoves were, until the renaissance of wood burning in the 70's ( whew, long past ), the only kind of wood stove except for later add-on catalytic combustors
that were added to stove pipe. The real Vermont Castings ( look up their engineering history - Defiant and Vigilant) ) designed a form of "reburning" gases through convoluted smoke paths.
Some Scandinavian stove makers such as Lange, Morso, Jotul, had other designs to re-burn such as a "loop" before exiting ( see Morso 2BO for example).

Later stoves were engineered for built-in cats such as VC and Jotul's Firelight.

So here's the skinny: *IT"S THE AIR* ! So, cat stoves allow the primary air ( some have also thermostatic secondary also) to be near closed completely. This allows the smoke to
be burnt by the platinum/paladium coating on cats. Therefore, cat stoves will and can be controlled for longer, more efficient burns.

Now non-cats ( NOT hybrids) regulate the primary air so it's not too high, not too low to control emissions and heat--TO A DEGREE ( pun intended). Its a mommie stove. Look over The Bungalow Effect
explanation- john G. does an excellent job here.

Now for the real world. We use a cat (VC Encore 2550 circa 2001) for one part of the house. Another same sized part heats with a Jotul Oslo. Both stoves run 24/7, 99 44/100% of the time with no
central backup or furnace; just a small propane space heater for one part when on winter climbs or away to keep the pipes from freezing. Fact that over the 8 years with both stoves, the Oslo will use
~ 1/4 to ~ 1/2 MORE wood ( same species and seasoning ) than the cat Encore. The Encore will hold heat and coals ( like the BK line) close to twice as long as the non-cat Oslo. We will burn 6-8 cords of
Red/Soft Maple, Paper/White Birch, and some White Ash, Red Oak, Apple saved for those single and below zero days.

Addendum: an ancient Tempwood heats a workshop, and a Snorkel Hot Tub wood stove both use softwood blowdowns ( spruce, fir, cedar). Used a "thermostatic controlled" Ashley long ago in ignorance of its wondrous creosote production.

I am dismissed, and tired of winter. Next year's firewood is piled in butts ready for the round of split and stack.

Oh yes, we long ago ceased trying to keep the clear ceramic on the stoves clean. No time.


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## Highbeam (Apr 14, 2013)

I can blacken the glass of any stove but keeping them clean is only possible with the proper stove design. With the BK and excellent quality low density hardwoods I can not help but blacken the corners of the glass. Very little consideration has been given to keeping the glass clean in the design of the BK, just not a priority it seems. Maybe an impossibility with the way these stoves are designed to burn. You have to have air entering the firebox in a significant volume to cover all of that glass with an adequate "airwash" and the BKs just sip combustion air.


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