# Backup heat - how to "winterize" house



## Jack22 (Aug 6, 2012)

Hi Everyone. Its been a while since I have been on the forum. Last year was my first year burning and I had a very successful season. I burned full time and went through about 3 cords of wood. I had my chimney swept and got about 1/2 a cup of black powder so I think I did well. I want to thank everyone for all the valuable information I go on this site. I decided to get out of my propane lease and I may go this winter with just the wood stove and no back up. My question is how do I winterize my house if I decide to go away for a weekend and let the house go cold. I saw a post once by Backwoods Savage about this but I could not find it  and do not remember what it said. I have well water and forced hot air furnace. No boiler. Any info would be great.


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## Blue Vomit (Aug 6, 2012)

Jack22 said:


> My question is how do I winterize my house if I decide to go away for a weekend .


 
Just buy a BK, throw a few splits in, set the air and leave. When you get back the house will be warm and you will have good coals for a reload.


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## Todd (Aug 6, 2012)

Maybe invest in a few electric space heaters.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2012)

I wouldn't let that furnace sit unused.  Some day you'll want to sell that house, and potential buyers may not see the charm in heating 100% with wood.  Why not keep the furnace pulling backup duty to that stove, on long weekends away from the house?


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## BrotherBart (Aug 6, 2012)

Haven't had to do it here but the radiator space heaters in the basement and each room are the backups here. Wrong time of the year to buy them now. I loaded up on them at Lowe's a few years ago. At the end of winter they darn near give the leftovers away to get rid of them. You have to be careful to balance which circuits they are on.

I use them the first one or too cold nights each year to make sure the plan works, them shut'em down and fire the stoves from there on out.


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## nate379 (Aug 6, 2012)

Myself, and I'd imagine many others on here, have some sort of boiler or furnace (oil, gas, etc) as "backup". I leave my T Stats set to 65* in the winter in case I don't have time to load up the stove or am away from home longer than planned.

Since you have a propane furnace, if I were you I'd set up a larger RV tank to run it as a backup. I'd imagine a 7 gallon tank or two would last long enough to cover you for a weekend? (I have no idea how much fuel it consumes) Could set the heat to 45-50* really... just to keep anything from freezing up.


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## jeff_t (Aug 6, 2012)

A hundred pounder is a good idea. Also a good idea to exercise the furnace, maybe monthly. Mine didn't work at all last winter, but I'll have it fixed this fall. 

I have loaded up on Friday morning, set the thermostat at 45°, and gotten home on Monday to a 49° house. I'm not sure if the furnace came on at all. If you can do it, maybe close the bedroom door and let the stove rip the night before you leave, to really warm the place up. 

If you're really gonna be hardcore, drain the pipes and water heater, plunge the toilets and sink traps and dump some RV antifreeze in and hope for the best. Low level drains on the water pipes, and maybe a schrader valve to blow the pipes out with compressed air. I don't know if I'd go that far in NJ. A 100# tank will get you through a few weekends.


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## Shadow&Flame (Aug 6, 2012)

Joful said:


> I wouldn't let that furnace sit unused. Some day you'll want to sell that house, and potential buyers may not see the charm in heating 100% with wood. Why not keep the furnace pulling backup duty to that stove, on long weekends away from the house?


 
I also would keep the furnace in working order for a backup and resale.  Its better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.


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## eclecticcottage (Aug 6, 2012)

jeff_t said:


> A hundred pounder is a good idea. Also a good idea to exercise the furnace, maybe monthly.


 
I agree.  We have a 100 pounder to run our vent free if it's needed.  Tractor Supply sells them.


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## Jack22 (Aug 6, 2012)

Thank you all for the replies. I think I agree with the majority of you that I should keep the furnace operational. I was thinking maybe a 50 gallon 200 pound tank might do me well. I am no propane expert but I would think that the rate of vaporization on a small 100 pound tank would cause the tank to freeze up on a real cold day if my 80,000 btu furnace was pulling from it.


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## fox9988 (Aug 7, 2012)

Alll you have to worry bout it the plumbing freezing. Electric space heaters will do this cheap.


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## begreen (Aug 7, 2012)

Do you not have a propane storage tank already? If there is one, fill it then set the thermostat low and hope that there isn't a deep freeze when you go away.


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## Ashful (Aug 7, 2012)

begreen said:


> Do you not have a propane storage tank already? If there is one, fill it then set the thermostat low and hope that there isn't a deep freeze when you go away.



His tanks may have been owned by the propane co.  Don't use enough, they cancel the contract and take your tanks!


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## firefighterjake (Aug 7, 2012)

Oil boiler here . . . as my back up heat. I haven't filled it in three years I think . . . but I still maintain it and have the thermostats set to have it kick on at 60 degrees which is useful when I'm sick, away from the home for a weekend or longer or when we have a few extended days and nights of sub-zero temps as it may come on in the morning and work as my "alarm clock" to motivate me to get up and reload the stove.


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## Grinnell (Aug 7, 2012)

We have 4 electric baseboard heaters for 1700 sq ft. With electric the way it is thats why i upgraded the wood stove. We are only there on weekends/holidays but when we retire there I am going to have a hi eff propane furnace added just to keep the heat up when we are out.

Right now when we leave we drain the pipes and the toilets (on a well and the basement storage area stays 50F even in the dead of winter), leave the baseboard heater on in the kitchen so the frig doesnt shut off. Takes a bit to bring up the house when we return but sooo much cheaper than leaving the heat up.


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## Jack22 (Aug 7, 2012)

I had a propane tank that was owned by the propane company. When you are involved in a propane lease you either have to pay high tank rental fees or use a certain amount of propane a year. My company wanted me to fill my 100 gallon tank at least once a year so I got out of the lease and they picked up the tank. I am now tank-less and exploring my options. I will get another tank but the question is when? I may have to go a little while without propane so I am interested in peoples techniques  on keeping there pipes from freezing. Thanks to everyone for there comments. I don't know about you long time wood burners but I can't for this hot weather to end so I can start burning again.


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## nate379 (Aug 7, 2012)

I'd be happy for some hot weather actually.  It almost hit 65* yesterday and the sun came out for a few hours... but then got cold, cloudy and rained.


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## Armoured (Aug 7, 2012)

At our weekender, we have electric (hot water rads) on backup, set them to 5-10 celsius year-round, they keep the pipes from freezing. The wood insert does the trick for getting temperature up (relatively) quickly. Without the wood, we'd be paying for crazy electricity and/or be uncomfortable because the electric takes a looooong time to come up from cold. But more than enough to guard off freezing and simple to operate - set it and forget it.

Yes, when we're using the place, we set it to 18-24 degrees (I'm at the low end, spouse at the high end) but fire is stoked whenever we're awake. Shut down to 5-10 degrees when leaving and forget it. Repeat as necessary.

This usage keeps bills very manageable, and apart from the cold when arriving on the weekend for a few hours, very comfortable. (We do get a lot of use of sweaters - but I'm in the camp that says you're not allowed to complain about having to put a sweater on when it's below freezing outside).


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## Jack22 (Aug 7, 2012)

nate379 said:


> I'd be happy for some hot weather actually. It almost hit 65* yesterday and the sun came out for a few hours... but then got cold, cloudy and rained.


Right now I will take cold and rainy over hot and humid. I would love to live just a little further north in upstate New York. Its not that Jersey is a real hot state but I would like to live somewhere a little cooler. Then again I should not be complaining because there are people all over the country that are experiencing scorching temperatures and extreme drought conditions.


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## Jack22 (Aug 7, 2012)

Armoured said:


> At our weekender, we have electric (hot water rads) on backup, set them to 5-10 celsius year-round, they keep the pipes from freezing. The wood insert does the trick for getting temperature up (relatively) quickly. Without the wood, we'd be paying for crazy electricity and/or be uncomfortable because the electric takes a looooong time to come up from cold. But more than enough to guard off freezing and simple to operate - set it and forget it.
> 
> Yes, when we're using the place, we set it to 18-24 degrees (I'm at the low end, spouse at the high end) but fire is stoked whenever we're awake. Shut down to 5-10 degrees when leaving and forget it. Repeat as necessary.
> 
> This usage keeps bills very manageable, and apart from the cold when arriving on the weekend for a few hours, very comfortable. (We do get a lot of use of sweaters - but I'm in the camp that says you're not allowed to complain about having to put a sweater on when it's below freezing outside).


I just noticed your from Russia. Just out of curiosity what kind of insert do you have? And what kind of wood do you burn?


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## Treacherous (Aug 7, 2012)

-I leave a couple oil heaters on low (one is in room with hot water tank).  I don't empty the water tank
-drain the lines although everything under cabin has heat tape on it
-RV antifreeze everywhere else that has some residual water in it

I remotely monitor temperatures inside/outside and in crawlspace under cabin so I could address fairly quickly if power went out.

11 out of 12 years doing this with no problem.  Let's just say year "one" I replaced a toilet and learned my lesson.


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 7, 2012)

Jack22 said:


> Hi Everyone. Its been a while since I have been on the forum. Last year was my first year burning and I had a very successful season. I burned full time and went through about 3 cords of wood. I had my chimney swept and got about 1/2 a cup of black powder so I think I did well. I want to thank everyone for all the valuable information I go on this site. I decided to get out of my propane lease and I may go this winter with just the wood stove and no back up. My question is how do I winterize my house if I decide to go away for a weekend and let the house go cold. I saw a post once by Backwoods Savage about this but I could not find it and do not remember what it said. I have well water and forced hot air furnace. No boiler. Any info would be great.


 

Jack, we've done a few things. Just for a weekend in your area should pose no big problems. I recall one winter when all the electric was out for 3 days around here. Of course that was no problem for us but was for others. It did get me to thinking so we took a weekend trip one time in January. We did nothing to the water and for heat we used 2 ceramic heaters. When we got home the house temperature was somewhere between 50-60 but don't remember for sure; I think it was like 56 so there was no problems at all. A quick fire in the stove and the house warmed up fast. btw, those ceramic heaters are not big hogs for electric so cost is not a big object if for just a weekend.

For longer trips we drained the water lines and water heater. I then blew out the lines to be sure. In the drains and toilet we just put RV anti-freeze to fill the traps. Then we closed the door and headed south! Ah, that was our first time going south and seeing flowers and green grass in January. Very nice.


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## nate379 (Aug 7, 2012)

I'd disagree on that.  Most are 1500w.

3000w for the 2 is 3k per hour.  That's 0.45$ an hour (at my rates anyway) to run or about $11 a day... that is if they ran non stop.

$20-30 for s weekend is pretty expensive in my eyes considering my monthly electric bills are $50-60.




Backwoods Savage said:


> btw, those ceramic heaters are not big hogs for electric so cost is not a big object if for just a weekend.


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## Treacherous (Aug 7, 2012)

I run my two heaters on the 600W & 900W settings and set to a setting that keeps cabin at basically 40-45 degrees.

I believe I currently pay $0.088 per KWH


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## Retired Guy (Aug 8, 2012)

Some of the ceramic heaters are self limiting. The ceramic heats to a certain temperature. The faster the fan speed, the more electricity is used to maintain the ceramic temp.


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## begreen (Aug 8, 2012)

Many if not most electric space heaters have a thermostat and many have a high/low setting that varies the wattage between full and half or another tap. When on the thermostat the heater cycles. We have one in the greenhouse and it is only on cold nights that it stays on continuously. The electrical costs have been reasonable @ .010/kw hr.


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## save$ (Aug 8, 2012)

We keep our forced hot air furnace in good repair.  Hot water is from a seperate oil fired hot water heater.  We bought a hundred gallons of oil last summer and still have about a  third of that left.  Heat for our  2160 sq foot raised ranch is from one pellet stove. usually burn 5-6 ton, (last winter was less) We don't go away overnight during the cold seasons, so no issues with being away and things freezing.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 9, 2012)

Yeah when I  run the electric radiators to try it out I run them at six hundred watts. Eventually I get to a point where I say "I ain't doing 65 degrees in this joint anymore" and turn the 30-NC loose.


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## Sprinter (Aug 9, 2012)

I found out the hard way one time, when we were on the Washington coast, how important it is to operate your gas (or probably any) furnace now and then. We spent a few months in So.Cal. one winter and shut off the propane. We had a couple of electric space heaters with thermostats on about 800 watt settings just for freeze protection. After a long, grueling drive home in March, we finally made it home on a cold, miserable, rainy night about 10 PM. Exhausted from the difficult drive, we staggered in to that cold house and immediately turned on the propane and thermostat. Nothing. Not a click. Long story short, unless it's too late for that, I spent the next couple of hours troubleshooting the furnace, which I know nothing about. What had happened was that one of the interlock switches had stuck from not having been used for so long. Can't remember the name of the thing now. I bypassed it temporarily and fixed it later, but going through the furnace, there were a few other places that could have failed as well. I was not happy to get home that night!

Cancel your propane contract for the big tank if you want, but buy another, smaller, tank and use that furnace now and then. It's really good backup heat anyway.


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## eclecticcottage (Aug 9, 2012)

Joful said:


> His tanks may have been owned by the propane co. Don't use enough, they cancel the contract and take your tanks!


 
Hm.  Interesting.

When we bought the Cottage, there was an existing tank with propane still in it.  We didn't pay for it at closing, apparently the PO forgot about it and since he was from NYC I imagine his lawyer didn't think about the fact that it might exist (he also filled out the paperwork stating it was on public sewer, and we have septic).  So, we decided not to ask about a contract, etc, lest he realize he should get a credit for the remaining LP.  Since we don't use it for heat, we haven't used all that much-we did blow through a bunch when 1) we tried to use the oven on the stove that was here which didn't work properly and ate about 20% of it between 2 or 3 uses and 2) we hooked up a small blue flame heater in the mechanical area but put the thermo probe too close to concrete which caused it to run too much and ate about another 20% before we sussed out the problem with it.  All in all, we have been hanging at about 20% full most of the summer.  I couldn't say off hand how big the tank is.  We never signed a contract with the company on the tank, and obviously haven't paid for a refill.  I wonder if they are going to up and take the darn thing one day, lol.  We planned on replacing it with two 100 pounders in sequence (so when one runs out the other kicks in) so we wouldn't mind actually, except I'd love to wait until we use up the rest of the free stuff!!


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## Ashful (Aug 9, 2012)

Well, a lot of people do own their tanks, which may be your case.  We own our tank, the PO bought it when he had the gas fireplace installed, so he would not be tied to any propane company.


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## Sprinter (Aug 9, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Hm. Interesting.
> 
> When we bought the Cottage, there was an existing tank with propane still in it. We didn't pay for it at closing, apparently the PO forgot about it and since he was from NYC I imagine his lawyer didn't think about the fact that it might exist (he also filled out the paperwork stating it was on public sewer, and we have septic). So, we decided not to ask about a contract, etc, lest he realize he should get a credit for the remaining LP. Since we don't use it for heat, we haven't used all that much-we did blow through a bunch when 1) we tried to use the oven on the stove that was here which didn't work properly and ate about 20% of it between 2 or 3 uses and 2) we hooked up a small blue flame heater in the mechanical area but put the thermo probe too close to concrete which caused it to run too much and ate about another 20% before we sussed out the problem with it. All in all, we have been hanging at about 20% full most of the summer. I couldn't say off hand how big the tank is. We never signed a contract with the company on the tank, and obviously haven't paid for a refill. I wonder if they are going to up and take the darn thing one day, lol. We planned on replacing it with two 100 pounders in sequence (so when one runs out the other kicks in) so we wouldn't mind actually, except I'd love to wait until we use up the rest of the free stuff!!


I don't know how long you've been there, but it's a good chance that you own the tank anyway. If there's a name of a propane company on it, just call and ask. You have to find out sooner or later. If they want the tank back, I think they'd have to pay you for the remaining gas, since you do own that. Buying the house did not obligate you with the propane company even if there was an existing agreement. Then you can go ahead and buy one and fill it. What kind of stove do you cook on? You may want to look into a gas range. IMO, gas is the best way to cook and a good range doesn't use that much gas. We only use propane for the range and it's great.

In our case, the tank came with the house and is not leased, but we did have a leased tank at another place for awhile.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 9, 2012)

I think my deal is that I don't own the tank but I don't pay any rent.  Even if it costs a little more for the propane co. to fill the tank, we just use it for cooking right now and it lasts a real long time.


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## Sprinter (Aug 9, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> I think my deal is that I don't own the tank but I don't pay any rent. Even if it costs a little more for the propane co. to fill the tank, we just use it for cooking right now and it lasts a real long time.


That sounds like a good approach, especially if you don't use much. If the tank or regulator needs to be replaced, they can do it. Guess it depends on what the cost difference is per gallon. You'd have to pencil all that out.


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## eclecticcottage (Aug 12, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> I don't know how long you've been there, but it's a good chance that you own the tank anyway. If there's a name of a propane company on it, just call and ask. You have to find out sooner or later. If they want the tank back, I think they'd have to pay you for the remaining gas, since you do own that. Buying the house did not obligate you with the propane company even if there was an existing agreement. Then you can go ahead and buy one and fill it. What kind of stove do you cook on? You may want to look into a gas range. IMO, gas is the best way to cook and a good range doesn't use that much gas. We only use propane for the range and it's great.
> 
> In our case, the tank came with the house and is not leased, but we did have a leased tank at another place for awhile.


 
We cook on this, it's a Floyd Wells Bengal:












I *LOVE* my stove.  It doesn't use much gas, and it fits in well here.  Had to take a 4 hour round trip to get it, but it's SO much better than the hotpoint it replaced.

There is a name on the tank, it says "property of and serviced by XXX".  Per the company's site, they charge a pumpout charge as well as a pickup charge to take the tank.  Which is why we're trying to use up most of what we've got before contacting them.

We bought the place last September.


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## begreen (Aug 12, 2012)

I bought our tank outright (and at an outrageous price) from our propane company and they still put their owned sticker on it. Then the next year they started asking for rent! It took me several months to get that mess straightened out.


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## save$ (Aug 12, 2012)

begreen said:


> I bought our tank outright (and at an outrageous price) from our propane company and they still put their owned sticker on it. Then the next year they started asking for rent! It took me several months to get that mess straightened out.


All the more reason to be as independent as you can.  Even if it means you do your own delivery.


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## Sprinter (Aug 13, 2012)

begreen said:


> I bought our tank outright (and at an outrageous price) from our propane company and they still put their owned sticker on it. Then the next year they started asking for rent! It took me several months to get that mess straightened out.


Geez, I guess we're lucky. We own the tank, the company _knows_ we own the tank, they bring me gas for a reasonable price when I ask, and that's that. Problems like this are unnecessary.
But, cooking with gas is so much better than electric, isn't it?


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## begreen (Aug 13, 2012)

Yes it is, especially during week long power outages.


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## Sprinter (Aug 13, 2012)

begreen said:


> Yes it is, especially during week long power outages.


The only thing we had to get used to on our stove was how the oven starts. I don't know much about how others work, but ours does not have a pilot flame. When you turn the thermostat up, it begins to heat up an electric element until it gets hot enough to ignite the gas, then opens the valve. That takes a few minutes, then Poof, Swoosh, the gas ignites. A bit disconcerting the first few times. We didn't have an owners manual for it so we asked the previous owner how to start the oven. She just said to turn it up and wait for it to explode. Great. We're thinking a about a new one...


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## eclecticcottage (Aug 13, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> I don't know much about how others work, but ours does not have a pilot flame.


 
Neither does ours...but that's because it's match lit :D


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## Sprinter (Aug 13, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Neither does ours...but that's because it's match lit :D


 Well, at least the starter won't break. With this method, if the ignitor fails, the gas won't even turn on so you can't match light it if you wanted to (I think - we still don't have a manual - I'm going to download one right now. Thanks for reminding me.) Do you match light the burners also? Ours are piezo. These auto ignition systems are nice, but I have a KISS philosophy.


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## eclecticcottage (Aug 13, 2012)

No, the burners are pilot lit (well 99% of the time, one is a little cranky and sometimes needs to be match lit).  One central pilot for the four burners.  It's a very basic 1950's model.  We had a 80's (I think) era hotpoint here when we bought the place.  Electronic ignition too.  The oven was crazy, it did the same as yours (like little explosions every time it came on), but it also used a mad amount for propane.  The Bengal is a much better stove, even though the oven is smaller.  I don't think you can even buy a new stove that's not electronic ignition...


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## Sprinter (Aug 13, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> No, the burners are pilot lit (well 99% of the time, one is a little cranky and sometimes needs to be match lit). One central pilot for the four burners. It's a very basic 1950's model. We had a 80's (I think) era hotpoint here when we bought the place. Electronic ignition too. The oven was crazy, it did the same as yours (like little explosions every time it came on), but it also used a mad amount for propane. *The Bengal is a much better stove, even though the oven is smaller. I don't think you can even buy a new stove that's not electronic ignition...*


Funny that modern isn't always better.

I said our burners were piezo, but piezo is mechanical, like those grill lighters. I'm sure it's actually electronic. Small point, but those electronic high voltage circuit boards are not always very reliable, especially in RV applications for some reason (like RV appliances are overpriced sh..junk) ). I will say one thing for this Magic Chef, though, the oven thermostat is dead on and doesn't vary much. Wife makes good stuff in it . I've always wondered if gas ovens seem to bake better partly because of the moisture that the burning gas is always giving off.


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## eclecticcottage (Aug 13, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> Funny that modern isn't always better.


 
Yup.  We have a 1950's fridge too, quieter than the 2004 Kenmore it replaced AND uses less electric


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## Sprinter (Aug 13, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Yup. We have a 1950's fridge too, quieter than the 2004 Kenmore it replaced AND uses less electric


 
And, looks better!

Your really are going retro, aren't you? I like it. What do you drive? If it's 50's, I need a pic...


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