# Why did you install an outdoor air kit?



## kinsmanstoves (Feb 8, 2016)

I have been known to stir the burn pot a little.  Why did you install an OAK? 

1.) Is it to cut down the clearance to a window or door?  If there is an air wash in the door (Breckwell, Napoleon, US Stove) that allows room air into the unit or any other air inlet to the stove this will not work such as an unsealed ash pan or not a direct sealed connection to the combustion blower.

2.) Is it to let moisture into an appliance that has electrical connections and made of metal so it rusts faster?

3.) Building code.  Cause the government knows what is best and I don't break the law (55 MPH means 55 MPH)?

4.) The manufacturer said so?

Please let me know if I forgot to list a response.


Eric


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## PoodleWamer (Feb 8, 2016)

1. I live in a manufactured home, code says OAK has to be installed.
2. Installation manual says to use a fresh air intake, OAK is recommended. (Piazzetta Sabrina)
3. I put my stove in a space with an existing wood stove/OAK hearth.  I had to plug the OAK access hole when I removed the wood stove because of the infiltration/draft.   I also reasoned that a burning stove has to pull the air that goes up the chimney from somewhere.  I would rather use cold air from an OAK than pull burn air through the bathroom vents, windows, doors, etc. to then burn heated air.


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## Pete Zahria (Feb 8, 2016)

PoodleWamer said:


> I would rather use cold air from an OAK than pull burn air through the bathroom vents, windows, doors, etc. to then burn heated air.



Which makes the most sense of all...


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## Pelleting In NJ (Feb 8, 2016)

It's common sense............


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## DougA (Feb 8, 2016)

My house is more air tight and an OAK just makes a huge amount of sense to me. I am very happy with mine but IF it was very difficult to install, I would probably not put one in.


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## h2ochild (Feb 8, 2016)

Quote from ESW manual: "Outside air is mandatory for this unit to operate properly"
Good to see you  posting again Eric, "The stirrer"


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## DneprDave (Feb 8, 2016)

The outside air inlet on my stove just goes into a vented box that draws air from the inside of the back of the stove, it would draw air from inside the house anyway. An OAK would do nothing on my stove.


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## alternativeheat (Feb 8, 2016)

DneprDave said:


> The outside air inlet on my stove just goes into a vented box that draws air from the inside of the back of the stove, it would draw air from inside the house anyway. An OAK would do nothing on my stove.


Someone else thought the same thing, the oak leads to that air space inside the case of the stove and in his situation the stove is breathing the outside air more than inside air, drafts have reduced in his house since going ahead with the OAK install.. His story not mine, it was on here about six weeks ago, he decided to give it a shot vs assuming some hypothetical theory.


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 8, 2016)

DneprDave said:


> The outside air inlet on my stove just goes into a vented box that draws air from the inside of the back of the stove, it would draw air from inside the house anyway. An OAK would do nothing on my stove.




I see said the blind man!


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 8, 2016)

Pete Zahria said:


> Which makes the most sense of all...



That is a good answer.  

Eric


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 8, 2016)

Pelleting In NJ said:


> It's common sense............




But not needed in a lot of situations.

Eric


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## TStark (Feb 8, 2016)

math


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 8, 2016)

TStark said:


> math


That explained a lot.  Thank you for your one second reply. 

Eric


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## hossthehermit (Feb 8, 2016)

Because I could. Wasn't busy that day, figgered I'd try it out, and if I didn't like it, I'd go back.  Still usin' it.......................


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## alternativeheat (Feb 8, 2016)

I installed mine because I wanted to lower drafts in the house and it worked.


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## Cedarjunki (Feb 8, 2016)

Well in my case it is deff not what you seem to want to classify a "needed" item.  Old mobile home, drafty. I dont care what they say about trailers, they are NOT built air tight.    But In my case if i didnt install the oak i would be sitting here bundled up because of the cold air breezing by me to get to the stove. No thanks, the whole objective is to warm the space correct?


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## Pete Zahria (Feb 8, 2016)

Regardless of what anyone says...
The stove is drawing outside air. Period.
It is not running on just inside air.
It is running on inside air, being replaced with cold outside air.
So you can pipe the air into the stove, or you can have what
amounts to a window partially opened all the time..

I am not one for making more work than necessary. Believe me.
I had to put a 4" hole through an 8" masonry wall to run my oak..
I never once considered not doing it.


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## DneprDave (Feb 8, 2016)

Even without an OAK I have no drafts in my house. What probably serves as an OAK is a big dog door about six feet from the stove.


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## rich2500 (Feb 8, 2016)

My first stove was an Englander  and as mentioned above mandatory so its been hooked up too the Serenity and now the francesca


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## Don2222 (Feb 8, 2016)

Hello Eric
I have Selkirk DT on my stoves that warms and dries the outside air coming into the burn pot. As you stated, just the standard outside air kits make other problems!!


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## johneh (Feb 8, 2016)

I didn't like the idea of pulling heated air throw the stove just to exit the chimney
after all I paid to heat it
Besides my old Log Farm House has enough leaks already
Have never in 14 years had a problem with it


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## Peterfield (Feb 8, 2016)

Funny thing, I woke up the other morning and the door to the unheated garage was wide open.  Odd but the living room, dining room and kitchen felt the same and I didn't notice anything amiss until I went to the garage to bring a bag of pellets in.  The stove was operating in stove mode and it kept everything nice and toasty despite the open door.  A technician from the dealer came a couple of weeks ago to do a cleaning and replace the combustion blower.  I asked about adding an OAK and he was adamant that it wasn't necessary in my house. I have the stove in a center chimney and he said it wouldn't hurt anything to install a pipe in the chimney or down the ash dump cavity but wouldn't appreciably change the results of heating my house.  I understand the point of view regarding pulling in outside air but I guess I don't mind a little fresh air coming in for a little piece of mind.


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## Jigger (Feb 8, 2016)

Cedarjunki said:


> Well in my case it is deff not what you seem to want to classify a "needed" item.  Old mobile home, drafty. I dont care what they say about trailers, they are NOT built air tight.    But In my case if i didnt install the oak i would be sitting here bundled up because of the cold air breezing by me to get to the stove. No thanks, the whole objective is to warm the space correct?


I live in an old manufactured home as well. My place has new windows all the way around. But can still feel cold air leaking in at different places. I have my stove in a bump out that has no heat in it at all except for the stove. When I decided to put a stove in it so I do not have to use the electric heat base board. I went to the local fire dept. inspector for an answer. He said that an OAK was by local and state rules and must be installed.


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## womaus (Feb 8, 2016)

DneprDave said:


> Even without an OAK I have no drafts in my house. What probably serves as an OAK is a big dog door about six feet from the stove.



If this thread is to stir up the burn pot I'd like to add:

DneprDave is most probably more than happy with a breeze coming from the dog door cooling down the room, spending more $$$ than he needs to heating the space he inhabits...after all, my bet is that he owns a motorcycle that needs 3 hours of maintenance for every hour of riding.

Poke poke...stir up the embers....poke.


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## FTG-05 (Feb 8, 2016)

The same reason I don't leave the refrigerator door open.  I didn't do all the work, expend all these resources, spend countless hours cutting, splitting and stacking wood only to have to continually heat cold outdoor air being sucked in by the wood stove.

Cold outdoor air goes into the firebox, indoor air stays warm - which by the by, was the sole purpose of installing the wood stove in the first place.  Seems pretty simple to me.


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## 3650 (Feb 8, 2016)

I was tired if watching the curtains blow around and of feeling a draft over my moldy old toes.


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## HP52NOVA (Feb 9, 2016)

I had my oak installed first because I had to clear the distance to a window outside, using a horizontal run.  Then, I re-vented my stove vertically with a Ventis DT pipe (exhust and oak in one pipe).  Great product.
I do have a newer and rather tight home, but due to its size I probably would have been just fine without one.   I just never tried without...  
A large factor in my decision to use a DT pipe was due to this forum and the large support for oak's around here.  It just makes sense to me, especially if you can use a DT and save on the extra hole in the wall!


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## bogieb (Feb 9, 2016)

3650 said:


> I was tired if watching the curtains blow around and of feeling a draft over my moldy old toes.


This was me with my first stove - the basement dwelling P61a. I got all kinds of cold drafts on my main floor, from the stove running (and this was by no means a "tight" house). After a couple of months of that, I put in an OAK and the cold drafts stopped.

When I put in the main floor stove, I had to put in an OAK for clearance, but I would have put it in anyway from my previous experience with the P61.


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## Deezl Smoke (Feb 9, 2016)

Pete Zahria said:


> *Regardless of what anyone says...*
> *The stove is drawing outside air. Period.*
> It is not running on just inside air.
> It is running on inside air, being replaced with cold outside air.
> ...



 Though I do not run an OAK, what you say about the stove drawing outside air no matter what, is 100% fact. The part about a window open is not however. The part about outside air no matter what is a constant. Where the outside air comes into the house from is not.


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## Pete Zahria (Feb 9, 2016)

It was really metaphorical.....
Not scientific data.
However, I will stand by it.

Dan


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## moey (Feb 9, 2016)

Because everyone else on this forum said its a good idea. Being that I can not form a opinion of my own I had to do it. 

That said the house seems warmer with it.


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## m159267 (Feb 9, 2016)

Pelleting In NJ said:


> It's common sense............


+1
To me it's Spockable logic to have one - always has been.


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## FirepotPete (Feb 9, 2016)

Might as well talk about hot water heaters while we are at it.


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## Metal (Feb 9, 2016)

FirepotPete said:


> Might as well talk about hot water heaters while we are at it.



Why would you heat hot water?


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## FirepotPete (Feb 9, 2016)

Metal said:


> Why would you heat hot water?


Exactly!


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## Marina1327 (Feb 9, 2016)

DneprDave said:


> Even without an OAK I have no drafts in my house. What probably serves as an OAK is a big dog door about six feet from the stove.



I have that same kind of "OAK" when it's open to let the herd out...


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## Edsson (Feb 9, 2016)

Question. I have a Quad E2 on a brick hearth, in my living room, on an outside wall that the brick goes up to the ceiling. Can I run my OAK over the brick hearth, down into the basement through a hole in the floor and then horizontally outside through the sill plate. I don't want to cut a hole in the living room wall, so I want to do it in the basement. Any issues going down vertically and then outside horizontally? Total piping about 8'


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## TStark (Feb 9, 2016)

Edsson said:


> Question. I have a Quad E2 on a brick hearth, in my living room, on an outside wall that the brick goes up to the ceiling. Can I run my OAK over the brick hearth, down into the basement through a hole in the floor and then horizontally outside through the sill plate. I don't want to cut a hole in the living room wall, so I want to do it in the basement. Any issues going down vertically and then outside horizontally? Total piping about 8'


 
see no issue with that arrangement,
I do some what similar, about a 6' run, and it works very well


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## Lake Girl (Feb 9, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> I have been known to stir the burn pot a little.  Why did you install an OAK? ...
> Please let me know if I forgot to list a response.
> Eric



Eric, you pot stirrer you!  Forgot to mention if you have an OAK on your stove at home...  Fair is fair, if we are sharing so should you.  Why the interest in the first place?

I have an OAK that was installed a couple of weeks after the stove was installed.  Lots of reading here convinced me it made logical sense and our house is actually more air tight than one would expect (had a blower test done).  Much happier with the OAK installed...

As to rusting out the stove, that's why you cap things in the summer and put damp rid in the fire box...


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## Metal (Feb 9, 2016)

Another issue not mentioned yet is safety.  A pellet stove pulls a lot of room air and if you have an air tight home that air has to come from someplace, possibly reversing the flow from your furnace/water heater vent.


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## DneprDave (Feb 9, 2016)

womaus said:


> If this thread is to stir up the burn pot I'd like to add:
> 
> DneprDave is most probably more than happy with a breeze coming from the dog door cooling down the room, spending more $$$ than he needs to heating the space he inhabits...after all, my bet is that he owns a motorcycle that needs 3 hours of maintenance for every hour of riding.
> 
> Poke poke...stir up the embers....poke.



Actually, the Dnepr starts with one kick, it's been pretty reliable. The dog loves it!


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## Arti (Feb 9, 2016)

Have an oak for the St Croix in the basement. Can't really see any difference as we ran it 2 years without.
Quadra Fire in Living room doesn't have an oak hooked to it and likely won't. It is run during the shoulder season and really cold evenings. It is for a little added heat and ambiance. 
Seems to me a bottle of wine and would make the Quad  more efficient for the ambiance part ?!


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## TLHinCanada (Feb 9, 2016)

a oak should be installed to prevent a back flow of CO from other appliances.  That is why it is code.  (Haven't been on this site in about three years.  Good to see hyour still stirring the pot.)


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## womaus (Feb 9, 2016)

DneprDave said:


> Actually, the Dnepr starts with one kick, it's been pretty reliable. The dog loves it!
> 
> 
> View attachment 174395



I've been lusting after a Ural for sometime...maybe this year. But it will be a recent one. 

Still stirring the pot: Viva the election! This should be a good one...


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## Dr.Faustus (Feb 9, 2016)

It came free with my englander. Why would anyone not use something they got for *free* (a $65.00 value!)

All joking aside, taking already heated air, heating it up even more as it passes through the pellets, reclaiming a percentage of that and sending the rest out the vent seems silly.

While i dont have a cat, my friend had a great use for her oak. She connected it to the top of her cats litter box. those ones with the snap on tops. she said it works great - sucks all the smell right out!.


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## TStark (Feb 9, 2016)

,............


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## NYBurner (Feb 10, 2016)

My stove is installed in a finished basement, we ran last year without one and had issues with heat NOT rising (we have a central completely open entrance to the basement).  I did a lot of looking into it and fiddling and found interesting info on 'stack effect' or pressure differentials in multi level homes and basements/first floors are typically in vacuum which explains the heat not moving up.  Having a stove sucking in air along with hot water heater and occasional furnace were not gonna help the situation.  So I ran an OAK to take the stove out the equation, and an 8" cold air return duct from the top floor to the basement (with a variable 750cfm duct blower) and it works great.


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## gfreek (Feb 10, 2016)

OAK, makes sense to me..


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 10, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Eric, you pot stirrer you!  Forgot to mention if you have an OAK on your stove at home...  Fair is fair, if we are sharing so should you.  Why the interest in the first place?
> 
> I have an OAK that was installed a couple of weeks after the stove was installed.  Lots of reading here convinced me it made logical sense and our house is actually more air tight than one would expect (had a blower test done).  Much happier with the OAK installed...
> 
> As to rusting out the stove, that's why you cap things in the summer and put damp rid in the fire box...


I have an XXV in the front room and a Qudra Fire Isle Royal in the dining room.  NO OAKs.

Eric


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 10, 2016)

TLHinCanada said:


> a oak should be installed to prevent a back flow of CO from other appliances.  That is why it is code.  (Haven't been on this site in about three years.  Good to see hyour still stirring the pot.)


It's only code by local zoning or manufacturer.    Eric


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## Tonyray (Feb 10, 2016)

yo


Lake Girl said:


> Eric, you pot stirrer you!  Forgot to mention if you have an OAK on your stove at home...  Fair is fair, if we are sharing so should you.  Why the interest in the first place?
> 
> I have an OAK that was installed a couple of weeks after the stove was installed.  Lots of reading here convinced me it made logical sense and our house is actually more air tight than one would expect (had a blower test done).  Much happier with the OAK installed...
> 
> As to rusting out the stove, that's why you cap things in the summer and put damp rid in the fire box...


u are CORRECTO..... 
I would add that at end of season we also spray the burnpot and all the inside of the stove with Pam cooking spray...[Not butter flavored]
Would sit on the floor with our dog and feel the draft crawling under us.
that ended when we put an OAK in..


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## biomass burner (Feb 10, 2016)

whats everyone's feelings on an OAK? Just Kidding lol


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 10, 2016)

I can still stir the pot

Eric


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## FirepotPete (Feb 10, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> I can still stir the pot
> 
> Eric


Not mine, I run clinker style!!


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## womaus (Feb 10, 2016)

Did someone say "Stirring the Pot"?





(If you double-click on it it will spin...I'd try to fix it but I just don't have the time...)


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 11, 2016)

womaus said:


> Did someone say "Stirring the Pot"?
> 
> View attachment 174470
> 
> ...


Drugs are bad and illegal here in Ohio.

eric


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## TLHinCanada (Feb 11, 2016)

i just put in a drolet 065.  had to get it inspected for house insurance.  The oak had to have an insulated duct.


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## womaus (Feb 11, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> Drugs are bad and illegal here in Ohio.
> 
> eric



I understand in Ohio it's also illegal for more than five women to live in a house?

They have lots of silly laws....


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## Jim H. (Feb 14, 2016)

I had my XXV for a couple years before adding an oak.  If I stood anywhere near the stove without the oak (Bi level, lower level install) I would feel a cold draft going towards the stove.  Since this is our family room and where we hole up during the cold months,  that was not going to do.  I installed the oak and the pull of cold air is gone.  Tootsies stay warm when basking in front of the fire now! LOL


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 16, 2016)

womaus said:


> I understand in Ohio it's also illegal for more than five women to live in a house?
> 
> They have lots of silly laws....


Why do you want to have five women living in your house?

Eric


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## bogieb (Feb 16, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> Why do you want to have five women living in your house?
> 
> Eric



Sometimes it's required for peace on the homefront:

So who do you kick out - your wife or the 6th daughter ?


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## womaus (Feb 16, 2016)

bogieb said:


> Sometimes it's required for peace on the homefront:
> 
> So who do you kick out - your wife or the 6th daughter ?



Wait wait wait...you're talking relatives?

And it would be the 5th and 6th daughter going out the door, if one was to go hierarchically. 

I've always been a rebel though...I'd toss the wife first. And she'd probably thank me for it.


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## bogieb (Feb 17, 2016)

womaus said:


> Wait wait wait...you're talking relatives?
> 
> And it would be the 5th and 6th daughter going out the door, if one was to go hierarchically.
> 
> I've always been a rebel though...I'd toss the wife first. And she'd probably thank me for it.


Yeah, you are right - 5th daughter


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 17, 2016)

bogieb said:


> Sometimes it's required for peace on the homefront:
> 
> So who do you kick out - your wife or the 6th daughter ?


That sir is a hard question but you know it in your heart!  LOL


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## Lake Girl (Feb 17, 2016)

Don't think that law applies to family members .... I think it was more troublesome when you had 5 women living in the same house that weren't related!


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## doghouse (Feb 18, 2016)

Does the law state that an OAK needs to be installed for each of the five women living in the house?


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## bogieb (Feb 18, 2016)

doghouse said:


> Does the law state that an OAK needs to be installed for each of the five women living in the house?


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## Metal (Feb 18, 2016)

doghouse said:


> Does the law state that an OAK needs to be installed for each of the five women living in the house?


Actually you need one IAK (bathroom exhaust fan) per woman.  Any less than one bathroom per woman and you are asking for trouble.


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## billb3 (Feb 18, 2016)

I even have one on my oil fired boiler.
Changing to direct vent allows me to us  an OAK.  ( you don't suck air for your car's ICE from the passenger compartment !)
Plus it allowed me to remove the chimney that needed work at and above the roof line and give me back 7+ square feet of living space.


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## skibumm100 (Feb 18, 2016)

OAK. Homemade DT-like setup using the existing 8" ID X 11" OD insulated flue pipe from the prefab fireplace as the outer pipe and the 4" pellet vent as the inner pipe. When it's 20 degrees outside my combustion make-up air is around 120 deg F. That's "free" BTU's I don't have to supply with fuel. It's an economizer of sorts. It also keeps excess heat out of my attic to cut down on ice dams. Plus, it's common sense for many of the reasons mentioned above. I don't put Damp Rid in my stove, oil it up or anything else. No more surface rust than it would have w/o an OAK. Since the air coming in the OAK is heated, there isn't a moisture problem near the stove components. I did buy Damp Rid last year but I left it in my stored car, not in my stove. I should treat my stove nicer.


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## Bowhunter1 (Feb 18, 2016)

cuz i was told to on this forum or i was stupid for not?


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## womaus (Feb 18, 2016)

doghouse said:


> Does the law state that an OAK needs to be installed for each of the five women living in the house?



Thinking deeper on this I think I believe living in a house with 5 unrelated women would be A-OK.

And that's probably why it's illegal in Ohio.

(And I like that Lake Girl likes this....)


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 20, 2016)

skibumm100 said:


> OAK. Homemade DT-like setup using the existing 8" ID X 11" OD insulated flue pipe from the prefab fireplace as the outer pipe and the 4" pellet vent as the inner pipe. When it's 20 degrees outside my combustion make-up air is around 120 deg F. That's "free" BTU's I don't have to supply with fuel. It's an economizer of sorts. It also keeps excess heat out of my attic to cut down on ice dams. Plus, it's common sense for many of the reasons mentioned above. I don't put Damp Rid in my stove, oil it up or anything else. No more surface rust than it would have w/o an OAK. Since the air coming in the OAK is heated, there isn't a moisture problem near the stove components. I did buy Damp Rid last year but I left it in my stored car, not in my stove. I should treat my stove nicer.


I just hope it is not cooling the exhaust gases to the point at creosote forms in the exhaust pipe.  

Eric


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## greg13 (Feb 20, 2016)

I'm surprised one of the over thinkers hasn't figured out how much energy is being lost using cold air to burn vs warm air to burn. Wait, someone apply for a government grant it study the issue it should be good for a few million$$


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 20, 2016)

greg13 said:


> I'm surprised one of the over thinkers hasn't figured out how much energy is being lost using cold air to burn vs warm air to burn. Wait, someone apply for a government grant it study the issue it should be good for a few million$$


I shall assist on this if I can get on the payroll.

Eric


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## womaus (Feb 20, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> I just hope it is not cooling the exhaust gases to the point at creosote forms in the exhaust pipe.
> 
> Eric



Knowledge from the internet (which we know is where everything is true...)

Wikipedia "Creosote" page:

_Burning wood and fossil fuels at low temperature causes incomplete combustion of the oils in the wood, which are off-gassed as volatiles in the smoke. As the smoke rises through the chimney it cools, causing water, carbon, and volatiles to condense on the interior surfaces of the chimney flue. The black oily residue that builds up is referred to as creosote, which is similar in composition to the commercial products by the same name, but with a higher content of carbon black._
_
73% of heating fires and 25% of all residential fires in the United States are caused by failure to clean out creosote buildup. *Since 1990, creosote buildup has caused 75% fewer fires.[80] This is partly due to the use of efficient wood-burning stoves that fully combust the carbon from fuel, and partly due to the use of Class A flues, insulated double wall stainless steel pipe.*
_
My understanding of modern pellet stoves is that they are efficient in their burning of the product...there should be less issues with creosote formation. Through reading posts on this and other forums it seems there are more issues with exhaust pipes being clogged up with ash, with the recommended remedy being the reverse leaf blower trick. The leaf blower does nothing to remove creosote.

Using the triple walled (?) pipe to integrate the intake with the exhaust will decrease the temperature of the exhaust...this could cause a problem with the natural draft of the exhaust in the event of a power outage, with no fan forcing the gasses out the vent 

And, to further expound on creosote, I present to you "Mr. Creoste", from Monty Python's Meaning of Life. I apologize in advance...


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## rod_munch (Feb 20, 2016)

I have a Lopi pioneer freestanding stove.  Did not install OAK,  on the advice of my chimney sweep who sold me the used stove.  My house isn't that tight...and he said it does NOT matter.


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## womaus (Feb 20, 2016)

rod_munch said:


> I have a Lopi pioneer freestanding stove.  Did not install OAK,  on the advice of my chimney sweep who sold me the used stove.  My house isn't that tight...and he said it does NOT matter.



Clearly he is the smartest chimney sweep out there.


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## Wilbur Feral (Feb 21, 2016)

womaus said:


> Clearly he is the smartest chimney sweep out there.


A real genius.  Has a side business selling flat earth maps, 'cause everyone knows those science types are just crazy.


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## Wilbur Feral (Feb 21, 2016)

greg13 said:


> I'm surprised one of the over thinkers hasn't figured out how much energy is being lost using cold air to burn vs warm air to burn. Wait, someone apply for a government grant it study the issue it should be good for a few million$$


Would this be in opposition to the under thinkers?  I think I know which camp I want to be in, but to each their own.


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## jjones139 (Feb 21, 2016)

Yesterday I broke my A$$ boring not 1, but 2 holes through 12" concrete for my OAK. I seriously contemplated NOT doing the OAK, but I did a little experiment using my upstairs stove 1st. I disconnected the OAK upstairs and I noticed an immediate slight draft from the windows on either side. I reconnected and the draft was gone. Even though my owners manual for both stoves says it's mandatory for OAK I wanted to see for myself. It works for me even though the install downstairs was BRUTAL This is a GREAT site.... Thanks for all the tips and advice


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## Pellet-King (Feb 21, 2016)

Last weekend it was brutally cold here in the northeast, I ran my stove for the first time all winter burning leftover's, i'll tell you without OAK every draft made there presence , now today no stove burning, using oil and it's 32 degree's out and no drafts week later, my stove has a 2" pipe but there's a box with a circle hole which defeat's the connection if I wanted to connect a outside pipe, I guess I could use some metal duct tape and seal it, but i have a insert and the thought of drilling a 2" or bigger hole in my fireplace wall doesn't appeal to me., sure you could someday cement it off but that I would think would hurt resale value.
Or using the ash cleanout as OAK would just suck the same air from the house anyway


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## rod_munch (Feb 21, 2016)

Hey he even danced a little jig and called me "Gover'na".
But yes I'd say yall are over-thinking the issue.


----------



## billb3 (Feb 21, 2016)

Pellet-King said:


> Last weekend it was brutally cold here in the northeast, I ran my stove for the first time all winter burning leftover's, i'll tell you without OAK every draft made there presence , now today no stove burning, using oil and it's 32 degree's out and no drafts week later, my stove has a 2" pipe but there's a box with a circle hole which defeat's the connection if I wanted to connect a outside pipe, I guess I could use some metal duct tape and seal it, but i have a insert and the thought of drilling a 2" or bigger hole in my fireplace wall doesn't appeal to me., sure you could someday cement it off but that I would think would hurt resale value.
> Or using the ash cleanout as OAK would just suck the same air from the house anyway




Where does your oil burner get its  combustion air supply from ?


----------



## skibumm100 (Feb 21, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> I just hope it is not cooling the exhaust gases to the point at creosote forms in the exhaust pipe.
> 
> Eric



No creosote whatsoever. Nice light, soft grey ash. One swipe with a soft bristle flue brush and I'm done. My flue is vertical and 22 feet tall. About 10 feet of the 22 feet is insulated with 1" ceramic batt insulation, partly because I wanted to make sure I didn't lose my natural draft. I do have plenty of natural draft even with the flue gas cooling. I have not stuck a thermocouple in the flue gas exit to see what the final flue gas temperature is, but, based on the condition of the ash at the top, I'm fine.


----------



## Peterfield (Feb 21, 2016)

Wilbur Feral said:


> Would this be in opposition to the under thinkers?  I think I know which camp I want to be in, but to each their own.



My dealer has sold coal, wood and pellet stove for over 30 years.  They said an OAK was not needed for my 52i installed in a enter chimney fireplace.  If only they were as smart and all-knowing as forum members here.


----------



## womaus (Feb 21, 2016)

billb3 said:


> Where does your oil burner get its  combustion air supply from ?



My oil burner is located in the basement of the house, not in a regular living space. The foundation of my 100 house is made with locally sourced rock, cemented together. The sill rests on said foundation.

My basement is anything but airtight. The gas furnace (30+ years old as gas, a conversion from an oil burner that was installed over 45 years ago) and the gas water heater both have a vent to exhaust the offset, and the air is made up from within the basement area. The air is replaced from leaks in the foundation and attachment area of the house to the foundation. Yes, the basement is a bit drafty. As it should be, due to the age of the house and how was designed.

Houses are now designed with air makeup for combustion devices, preferring to use outside combustible air than interior. Partly due to the idea that a super insulated house is better than a standard insulated house.

Remember the radon scare? Certainly overblown, especially here in the NorthEast, but it made for some changes in building codes due to the issue.

_High concentrations of radon in homes were discovered by chance in 1985 after the stringent radiation testing conducted at a nuclear power plant entrance revealed that Stanley Watras, an engineer entering the plant, was contaminated by radioactive substances.[71] Typical domestic exposures are of approximately 100 Bq/m3 (1.3 pCi/L) indoors. Some level of radon will be found in all buildings. Radon mostly enters a building directly from the soil through the lowest level in the building that is in contact with the ground. High levels of radon in the water supply can also increase indoor radon air levels. *Typical entry points of radon into buildings are cracks in solid foundations, construction joints, cracks in walls, gaps in suspended floors, gaps around service pipes, cavities inside walls, and the water supply.*[2] Radon concentrations in the same location may differ by a factor of two over a period of 1 hour. Also, the concentration in one room of a building may be significantly different from the concentration in an adjoining room.[3]_

Now add a device (pellet, oil, gas) that needs to pull in an abundance of air for it's operation. That air, as we all will agree, needs to come from somewhere. Near the device in the basement (for those of us that have basements) that air getting to the device will be perceived as a draft....and that draft was seen as one of the ways excessive radon (in it's gas form) was entering homes.

I spent a few weeks going to at least 6 pellet stove dealers, its of questions, getting pries for the device, getting pricing for the installation. *None of them recommended installing an OAK *(this was when I contemplated dealer install). The one dealer that came to the house, upon seeing how the installation would proceed, agreed then that it would be smart n to put the OAK in (the install was through a plaster wall, wood shingle siding, and I was leaning towards the wall vent that would integrate both in one). The installation would be no more problem than one without an OAK. He did admit upon my questioning that using outside air would increase the economics of running the stove.

One Ravelli dealer told me that Ravelli does not recommend it, it screws up the combustion of the stove b constantly changing the temperature of the incoming air...it was better to use conditioned room air(?). Say what?

Another Ravelli dealer showed me the installation manual, showing the part where Ravelli recommends it, in print. But they said to leave it up to the installer for final word(?). Say what? Does each installer have full certifications? Theirs didn't...but they were _their_ trusted installers. In our state the installers do not need to be licensed, or trained. The install does need to pass building code...even there you sometimes get the luck of the draw when the inspector arrives, some knowledgable, some not.

I installed the stove myself...saving well over $1000 in the process. Installation was trivial. Used all Harman components, including the combination intake / exhaust vent kit. Building inspector was impressed (even more impressed when I told him this Accentrs was a recently purchased used stove, 10 years from manufacturing).

Other friends and acquaintances that have seen the install, and see that it has the intake, and get an explanation of why it is there, wonder if installing one would cut down on the drafts in their house. Not all of them, but most of them.

Installing one finally made sense to me after calling a good friend that has had his own HVAC business for over 40 years...he does high end installs where quality of air matters for manufacturing processes and for health care related businesses. His recommendation for a pellet stove in a home? If it doesn't cause a huge amount of cash outlay, go for it. Otherwise be ready to accept an installation that is not as efficient.


----------



## Monica in France (Feb 21, 2016)

I'm always amazed by the replies to this question.
I get the impression that people have not actually sussed out what an OAK is.

You have a pellet stove to have that nice snug feeling.  
Why ruin it with unnecessary drafts ?

On the economic side there is no  argument at all. You are paying for all that hot air going up the chimney.  Whether it is preheated in the house or whether it is coming in directly from the outside makes no  difference at all . On the other hand if you pre-heat it in the chimney  ( concentric tubes and all that) you can actually save a bit.

Worse than this is the quantity of water vapour going up the chimney – that costs you even more.
Has anyone designed a pellet stove with a condensation exchanger ?


----------



## womaus (Feb 21, 2016)

Monica in France said:


> I'm always amazed by the replies to this question.
> I get the impression that people have not actually sussed out what an OAK is.
> 
> You have a pellet stove to have that nice snug feeling.
> ...



France? You're in France?

Wicked cool...

Which area?


----------



## bogieb (Feb 21, 2016)

Peterfield said:


> My dealer has sold coal, wood and pellet stove for over 30 years.  They said an OAK was not needed for my 52i installed in a enter chimney fireplace.  If only they were as smart and all-knowing as forum members here.


Well, to be fair he said "not needed". Technically true. "Not needed" is not necessarily the same thing as "won't make a difference in comfort" .


----------



## womaus (Feb 21, 2016)

bogieb said:


> Well, to be fair he said "not needed". Technically true. "Not needed" is not necessarily the same thing as "won't make a difference in comfort" .



Je m'en remets à ton votre jugement


----------



## Peterfield (Feb 21, 2016)

womaus said:


> Je m'en remets à ton votre jugement



Normally when people start speaking French to me I'm in real trouble.


----------



## BrotherBart (Feb 21, 2016)

womaus said:


> Je m'en remets à ton votre jugement



Your horse has kidney trouble?


----------



## bogieb (Feb 21, 2016)

BrotherBart said:


> Your horse has kidney trouble?


----------



## FirepotPete (Feb 21, 2016)

Because outdoor air is free!


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## Lake Girl (Feb 22, 2016)

greg13 said:


> I'm surprised one of the over thinkers hasn't figured out how much energy is being lost using cold air to burn vs warm air to burn. Wait, someone apply for a government grant it study the issue it should be good for a few million$$


Didn't they already figure this out with Selkirk DT?


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## Wilbur Feral (Feb 23, 2016)

Peterfield said:


> My dealer has sold coal, wood and pellet stove for over 30 years.  They said an OAK was not needed for my 52i installed in a enter chimney fireplace.  If only they were as smart and all-knowing as forum members here.


Well, yes. IF only...  Sadly, that appears to not be the case.

If only the people selling such things were required to understand the science behind them.  If only the people buying them knew the same.  Absent either, we have these debates.


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## TStark (Feb 23, 2016)

Lets do the oak math again...

A 100cfm combustion blower running 24 hours is 144,000 cubic feet of air, exiting the house.

A 1350 sq foot home, say 28x48, 7.5" ceilings, is 10,080 cubic feet.

So, without an oak,  the pellet stove is turning the air over in the house 14 more additional times than it would naturally. Every day.

It appears any way one adjusts for their particulars, stove cfm, house volume, the bottom line is aiming fresh air at the stove combustion is an advantage.


----------



## Peterfield (Feb 23, 2016)

I don't question the math but have another math question.  Has anyone measured how an OAK might negatively effect the circulation of warm air throughout a house?  In my house, the upstairs bedroom and my office down the hall both average four degrees higher when the pellet stove is operating versus heating the same area in the main part of the stove via oil, both being set to 70 degrees.  My thinking is as the stove pulls dense cold air to the stove, the draft all talk about, it has to be replaced by less dense warm air over the top, creating a convective current or loop.  So I wonder, if the stove gets most of its combustion air from the outside via an OAK, it won't pull the cold air toward it, hence warmer air won't replace it and the rooms will be colder as a result.


----------



## FirepotPete (Feb 23, 2016)

Peterfield said:


> I don't question the math but have another math question.  Has anyone measured how an OAK might negatively effect the circulation of warm air throughout a house?  In my house, the upstairs bedroom and my office down the hall both average four degrees higher when the pellet stove is operating versus heating the same area in the main part of the stove via oil, both being set to 70 degrees.  My thinking is as the stove pulls dense cold air to the stove, the draft all talk about, it has to be replaced by less dense warm air over the top, creating a convective current or loop.  So I wonder, if the stove gets most of its combustion air from the outside via an OAK, it won't pull the cold air toward it, hence warmer air won't replace it and the rooms will be colder as a result.


I think that's just a air circulation and insulation problem. If your oil burner was just in one room, a space heater, you would see the same results. The OAK doesn't cause circulation problems it cures them.


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## Peterfield (Feb 23, 2016)

FirepotPete said:


> I think that's just a air circulation and insulation problem. If your oil burner was just in one room, a space heater, you would see the same results. The OAK doesn't cause circulation problems it cures them.


Should have included I only had the zone on where the pellet stove is, not the entire house.


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## biomass burner (Feb 23, 2016)

and thats no OAK


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## biomass burner (Feb 23, 2016)

and thats no OAK


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## womaus (Feb 23, 2016)

biomass burner said:


> and thats no OAK



And that's no JOAK.


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## FirepotPete (Feb 23, 2016)

Do I see signs of "cabin fever" in this thread?


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## Monica in France (Feb 25, 2016)

Tstark,
I'm having trouble with your medieval units : but from what I can translate they don't ring right.

I looked up the standard renewal rates for air in different rooms and found non less than once per hour.
Usually much more.
So for your 10K cf house I would suggest the MINIMUM air changes should be 240K cf a day.

A well regulated pellet stove running at 3 KW/hr ( this should be enough to heat that house)
will use about 1.65 m3/hr of air in the OAK .
If we multiply this by 24 for the hours and by 35 to use your barbaric units , I get 1400 cf / day.
This is running at  stoichiometric plus 20%.
Even in a badly insulated house the figures are not in the same ballpark.

If someone could confirm ( or correct ) my arithmetic , I would be very grateful.


----------



## bogieb (Feb 25, 2016)

Monica in France said:


> Tstark,
> I'm having trouble with your medieval units : but from what I can translate they don't ring right.
> 
> If someone could confirm ( or correct ) my arithmetic , I would be very grateful.



I might be able to but I would give you angst by using medieval and barbaric units, so won't bother.


----------



## TStark (Feb 25, 2016)

Monica in France said:


> I would be very grateful.


 
Doubt it


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## skibumm100 (Feb 25, 2016)

Monica in France said:


> Tstark,
> I'm having trouble with your medieval units : but from what I can translate they don't ring right.
> 
> I looked up the standard renewal rates for air in different rooms and found non less than once per hour.
> ...



Monica,

Check your calculation for how much air required to burn the fuel. That's all screwed up. Check google for conversion of English to metric units. 1.65 m3/hr is waaaay too low. That's only 0.97 CFM in medieval real world units. Where did you come up with the 1.65 cu. m/hr number? Do you mean 1.65 m3/min? That would be closer. BTW, how many days in a metric month?


----------



## Peterfield (Feb 26, 2016)

You're making my head hurt.


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## FirepotPete (Feb 26, 2016)

Oh yah, if God had meant for man to use the metric system, he/she would have given us 10 fingers........ah....never mind.


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## bogieb (Feb 26, 2016)

Don't remember anyone saying not to use the metric system. I'm just too much of a troglodyte to do the conversion


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## Pete Zahria (Feb 26, 2016)

bogieb said:


> Don't remember anyone saying not to use the metric system



I think the Americans in the 70's said not to use it, here,
after a badly failed attempt to get us to use it...


----------



## bogieb (Feb 27, 2016)

Pete Zahria said:


> I think the Americans in the 70's said not to use it, here,
> after a badly failed attempt to get us to use it...


Okay, I worded that badly - I meant in this thread


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## Monica in France (Feb 27, 2016)

Thanks skibumm100 ,
I too felt that the figure of 1.65 m3/hr was too low ,
but thats what came out of a simulator.
On the other hand the factor of 35 between SI units and Cubic feet I think is right.( 39.25/12 ^^3 )
Don't forget we are talking of the OAK air flow , in the chimney the flows are much higher because of the temperature.

So just trying an off-the-cuff estimate :
Taking pellets at 4.7 KW/Kg ( net , after burning/evaporating off the humidity ).
Ideally for 3 KW/hr you are burning 3 / 4.7 = 0.65 Kg /Hr. ( ~ one of my sacks of 15Kg a day ).
Adding for losses we have : 0.80 Kg/hr.
The stoichiometric ratio for wood is not easy to find : but I found two sources giving the value of 6.4 ( but this needs to be re-checked)
This means we are using 0.80 x 6.4 = 5.12 kgs of air / hr.
Adding extra air we have : ~ 6 kgs/Hr.
This in volume (at sea level and 0°c) is  6 / 1.3 = 4.7 m3.
This would be about 3 cu.ft a minute.
A figure which is still intuitively  on the low side.
So please poke holes in my logic so we can be sure of the right answer.


If you think you are joking for the metric month - read your history of post revolutionary France.
They even had clocks with 10 hours on them.


----------



## Pete Zahria (Feb 27, 2016)

I'll take:
"Things way beyond my comprehensive ability" for $200, Alex


Dan


----------



## Lake Girl (Feb 27, 2016)

Growing up with imperial measurements, I still struggle with metric.  The only time I don't have to guess on temps is when it hits -40 ... thats the point where celsius and fahrenheit are equal.


----------



## FirepotPete (Feb 27, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Growing up with imperial measurements, I still struggle with metric.  The only time I don't have to guess on temps is when it hits -40 ... thats the point where celsius and fahrenheit are equal.


That's why you live where you do!!


----------



## skibumm100 (Feb 27, 2016)

Monica in France said:


> Thanks skibumm100 ,
> I too felt that the figure of 1.65 m3/hr was too low ,
> but thats what came out of a simulator.
> On the other hand the factor of 35 between SI units and Cubic feet I think is right.( 39.25/12 ^^3 )
> ...




OK Monica. Let me work on this. The make-up air flow still sounds low but I'll do some digging to see where it takes me. You are right that CFM in exhaust does not equal CFM in the OAK. This ratio will vary significantly because the heat transfer efficiency varies a lot between stoves and firing rates. I suspect that there is a pretty high fouling factor in most stoves under actual running conditions. The conversion factor of m^3/hr to CFM at 35 is correct. I cheated as I use both metric and imperial systems at work so I have ConvertPad on my phone. When I get to a conversion that's not on ConvertPad, I do it the old fashioned way....by hand.

Your stoich ratio number for wood is pretty close to what I have found on the net. It ranged from 4.58 for generic biomass to 5.75-6.3 for wood. My combustion book says 6.4 so I think that number is good. That's for air, not O2.

 According to my Fossil Power Combustion book, "theoretical air" (A), or what's referred to as "stoich", for dry wood ranges from about 710-720 pounds of air per MMBTU of wood fuel. That does not include any excess air. 

HHV of various species of wood, dry (in BTU/lb) of 8200-9800 BTU/lb. 

Using pellets at 9000 BTU/lb you would need about 6.4 lb of air to combust 1 lb of pellets. At 30 deg F that would be about 79 ft^3 of air. Now add the excess air (15% excess O2) and you get 91 ft^3 per pound of pellets. 

Just for comparison, the amount of air needed at 70 deg F (heated room air, not OAK) is 85 ft^3 w/o excess air and 98 ft^3 with 15% excess O2.

So that's just for 1 lb of pellets. Now multiply by the amount of pellets you burn per hour.

If we convert this to your example:

0.8 kg/hr = 1.76 lb/hr

1.76 X 91 ft^3 OAK air = 160 ft^3/hr

160 ft^3/hr = 2.7 CFM

Your math seems to check out. Surprising isn't it? 

BTW, if it's cold, I burn twice that much. I also wouldn't be surprised if the efficiency isn't quite a bit lower than 80% in real life.

Regarding flue gas volume vs OAK air volume:

at 30 deg F (-1 deg C) air density is 0.081 lb/ft^3
at 70 deg F (21 deg C) air density is 0.075 lb/ft^3
at 300 deg F (149 deg C) air density is 0.052 lb/ft^3

......so on a mass flow basis this would make 2.7 ft^3/min equal to 0.22 lb/min at 30 deg F
and 0.22 lb/min at 300 deg F would be 4.23 Ft^3/min (CFM), so that's an increase of 56% in volume as the air heats up.

Now, something is rotten in Denmark. If most combustion fans are running at something like 20-30 CFM, per the experts, what does that tell us? Maybe there's a lot of tramp air coming in through the air wash for the glass? Maybe sneaking in somewhere else? It's hard to believe you could lose that much. I suspect most pellet stoves run at a much higher excess air number. For a well regulated industrial burner you would need 10-20% excess air to run efficiently. Most pellet stoves are pretty crude.

My apologies to the Danes for bringing them into this as this is pretty much a Franco-American thing.......

Anybody see any mistakes in my analysis?


----------



## skibumm100 (Feb 27, 2016)

Monica in France said:


> Thanks skibumm100 ,
> I too felt that the figure of 1.65 m3/hr was too low ,
> but thats what came out of a simulator.
> On the other hand the factor of 35 between SI units and Cubic feet I think is right.( 39.25/12 ^^3 )
> ...



3KW is a pretty small heat input. That's only 10,200 BTU/hr. Is this for our theoretical 10,000 ft^3 house?


----------



## Pete Zahria (Feb 27, 2016)

My scientific calculations are a little more simple.
I put my hand over the end of my stove pipe, and feel very lucky
that I am not sucking in that much cold air into the house.
I figure it to be about a lot x 1.736/12.


Dan


----------



## Jack Morrissey (Feb 27, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> I have been known to stir the burn pot a little.  Why did you install an OAK?
> 
> 1.) Is it to cut down the clearance to a window or door?  If there is an air wash in the door (Breckwell, Napoleon, US Stove) that allows room air into the unit or any other air inlet to the stove this will not work such as an unsealed ash pan or not a direct sealed connection to the combustion blower.
> 
> ...


I didn't...


----------



## rich2500 (Feb 28, 2016)

all these scientific calculations are making my head spin


----------



## TStark (Feb 29, 2016)

Consider that It fundamentally doesn't matter if the stove has a flame, is lit, or not.
There is stil a fan, pointed outside, pulling 1/2" H20 draft on the stove whether the stove is stone cold or at temp.
Stoichiometry has virtually no relevance.

Its basically having a bathroom exhaust fan running all day and night.

If one wants to nitpick, a 90-100cfm freerun combustion fan, in place, pulling a 0.45-0.55" H20 draft, installed, may net 50-55 cfm actual.

Still, a day's running is still many times the volume of a typical residence, any why people feel real-world improvements in comfort and efficiency.


----------



## skibumm100 (Feb 29, 2016)

TStark said:


> Consider that It fundamentally doesn't matter if the stove has a flame, is lit, or not.
> There is stil a fan, pointed outside, pulling 1/2" H20 draft on the stove whether the stove is stone cold or at temp.
> Stoichiometry has virtually no relevance.
> 
> ...




That may be true for your stove but not everybody's. The combustion fan does not generally run flat out. My stove uses an air flow sensor and varies the speed of the fan so it is not a fixed speed fan. There is also substantial natural draft in some installations and not in others. So, yeah, stoichiometry does have _something_ to do with it. This is more an exercise in trying to quantify the amount of make-up air required for combustion. Based on what the calculations say, it may not be as many CFM as you would think. It's not the same as a bathroom fan although it's affects are similar. The other question is how much of that air going up the flue is used in combustion vs. tramp air. The OAK will have virtually no affect on that.


----------



## womaus (Feb 29, 2016)

Learned something new again today:

*Tramp air -* Any air that enters (infiltrates) the furnace through leaks. This air may be measured by the O2 analyzer and often contributes to the burning of the fuel.


----------



## skibumm100 (Feb 29, 2016)

womaus said:


> Learned something new again today:
> 
> *Tramp air -* Any air that enters (infiltrates) the furnace through leaks. This air may be measured by the O2 analyzer and often contributes to the burning of the fuel.



Or, in most cases (in my experience on balanced-draft industrial coal stoker-fired boilers), does NOT contribute to the burning of the fuel. Most of the leaks I've found are well after the combustion zone in the other passes. A lot of times that is why you can't run anywhere close to your "target" excess O2 level. You see a high O2 reading but when you try to cut back on the forced draft fan, the fuel bed doesn't have enough air for proper combustion and it clinkers up. The induced draft fan on the back end of the boiler is pulling a slight negative pressure on the boiler casing and air leaks in all over the place. The O2 meter picks this up and that's why you see high O2 readings, not because you have too much combustion air. The O2 meter is usually located closer to the induced draft fan than the combustion zone on the boilers I'm familiar with. So the air-wash on a pellet stove is after the combustion zone on pellet stoves (which is in and just above the burn pot) so the combustion fan (induced draft fan) has to handle all of the tramp air, which is over and above the air needed by the fuel to burn completely.


----------



## Monica in France (Mar 1, 2016)

skibumm100 said:


> 3KW is a pretty small heat input. That's only 10,200 BTU/hr. Is this for our theoretical 10,000 ft^3 house?


Thanks for checking out my arithmetic.
I wonder if it the fact that the entry air flow is so small that the polemic over the OAK exists. (only applicable to a well regulated stove obviously).
Can we actually feel a draught so small ? My feet say Yes but my head says No.

For the 3 KW , I just took the figure corresponding to my usage this year . In general It has been mild and wet over here !
My house is probably about 100 m3 x 2.5m = 250m3  ~9000 ft^3.
But if we double the heat it is still under 6 cu ft/min - a figure still intuitively low.

But is it linear ?  I get the feeling that the lower the power the more 'excess' air you need.
Up to now I have put this down to the quantitative variation in the pellet feed at low power : you have to cater for the maximum not the average.


----------



## skibumm100 (Mar 1, 2016)

Monica in France said:


> Thanks for checking out my arithmetic.
> I wonder if it the fact that the entry air flow is so small that the polemic over the OAK exists. (only applicable to a well regulated stove obviously).
> Can we actually feel a draught so small ? My feet say Yes but my head says No.
> 
> ...



I would agree that the amount of excess air varies with firing rate in most applications. There are physical limitations in the design of the stove and burn pot and everything is a compromise. From what I have read, the excess air is generally less at higher firing rates, meaning it's closer to "ideal". It pretty much has to be that way because you have to make sure the burn doesn't go "lean" at high firing rates or bad things can happen when dealing with things on an industrial scale. I would think emissions rates would have something to do with it also. I agree that the numbers say one thing but the physical feel of the cold draft say something else.....


----------



## Pete Zahria (Mar 1, 2016)

skibumm100 said:


> I agree that the numbers say one thing
> but the physical feel of the cold draft say something else.....


So which do you go by?
I know what my choice is.........
All of these calculations are interesting, and complex. but it all boils down to the above.
And so much more simple.

Dan


----------



## skibumm100 (Mar 1, 2016)

Pete Zahria said:


> So which do you go by?
> I know what my choice is.........
> All of these calculations are interesting, and complex. but it all boils down to the above.
> And so much more simple.
> ...



I agree Dan. I just find the results of the exercise interesting. I've been around long enough to know not to argue with success. I wish I could read the airflow signal from the sensor on my stove. That would be better than cranking out theoretical calculations.


----------



## checkthisout (Mar 14, 2016)

skibumm100 said:


> OK Monica. Let me work on this. The make-up air flow still sounds low but I'll do some digging to see where it takes me. You are right that CFM in exhaust does not equal CFM in the OAK. This ratio will vary significantly because the heat transfer efficiency varies a lot between stoves and firing rates. I suspect that there is a pretty high fouling factor in most stoves under actual running conditions. The conversion factor of m^3/hr to CFM at 35 is correct. I cheated as I use both metric and imperial systems at work so I have ConvertPad on my phone. When I get to a conversion that's not on ConvertPad, I do it the old fashioned way....by hand.
> 
> Your stoich ratio number for wood is pretty close to what I have found on the net. It ranged from 4.58 for generic biomass to 5.75-6.3 for wood. My combustion book says 6.4 so I think that number is good. That's for air, not O2.
> 
> ...



Nope, looks good.

In my opinion, you get the best performance if you use exhaust pipe that was the fresh air inlet concentric to the exhaust I.E. Selkirk Directemp. This preheats the incoming air which means less fuel burned for the same net output into the house. It also helps in climates where temps dip into minuses and apparently causes issues if you are using outside air.


----------



## Edsson (Mar 22, 2016)

Question, The air inlet opening on my Quad E2 is 2". most all oak kits that I've seen are 3" or 4". I am considering installing an OAK in the off season, if they have a 2" inlet opening then that should be all that's necessary right. My plan is to run a flexible hose from the back of the stove, across the brick hearth through a hole in the carpeted floor. flex over and out through the sill plate to the outside. Any issues with that?


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## Pete Zahria (Mar 22, 2016)

Edsson said:


> Question, The air inlet opening on my Quad E2 is 2". most all oak kits that I've seen are 3" or 4". I am considering installing an OAK in the off season, if they have a 2" inlet opening then that should be all that's necessary right. My plan is to run a flexible hose from the back of the stove, across the brick hearth through a hole in the carpeted floor. flex over and out through the sill plate to the outside. Any issues with that?


I am not an expert, so you can take this for what it's worth..
If your stove usually takes a 2" BUT, you have to travel a little distance...
AND you have to have some turns in it..
I would put an adapter on the 2", and go with 3"..
But that's me. YMMV..

Dan


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## Don2222 (Mar 22, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> I just hope it is not cooling the exhaust gases to the point at creosote forms in the exhaust pipe.
> 
> Eric


That is only a problem for wood stoves Eric. DT works well for most pellet stoves except AES magnums.

I just put in my 3rd DT system last Sunday. The warm dry air keeps the ash dry and fluffy and keeps the stove from rusting too!


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## Lake Girl (Mar 23, 2016)

Dan has a point ... EVL works the same for an OAK.  90 = 5; 45 = 2.5; horizontal 1' = 1; vertical 1' = 1/2  Edsson, do the math before you start cutting holes!


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## womaus (Oct 3, 2016)

kinsmanstoves said:


> *I have an XXV in the front room and a Qudra Fire Isle Royal in the dining room.  NO OAKs.*
> 
> Eric



Let's stir up this old chestnut thread...I was going through it looking for a good referral point for current questions, and ran across this reply from the OP of this thread.

Looks like kinsmanstoves has 2 pellet stoves in his house, both without OAK. 

I'll bet 10 bucks if he installs an OAK on one of them he won't need to run the other.

Heh heh heh....


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## BrotherBart (Oct 4, 2016)

Let's not.


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