# Poor air quality from wood burners not just a western issue



## peakbagger (Dec 22, 2019)

Officials Issue Warning About Poor Air Quality In Southwestern N.H. This Weekend
					

The state is warning that southwestern New Hampshire will see unhealthy levels of particulate air pollution this weekend.The Department of Environmental…




					www.nhpr.org
				




Various western states usually are the ones that make the news for poor air quality from wood stoves.


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2019)

There are valley areas in New England and Appalachia that have the same issues as we see out west, but often on a more local level.


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## Smolder (Jan 1, 2020)

begreen said:


> There are valley areas in New England and Appalachia that have the same issues as we see out west, but often on a more local level.



My village in Ontario is exclusively heated with wood. Most of it was built in the 1800s. I’m the only one with an EPA stove but for the most part people know how to burn clean enough with their older stoves and burn dry wood. I’ve never found the smoke smell on humid stagnant days to be offensive. I could see people who come from the burbs where heat has no smell finding it offensive, but no one here does... it’s only an air quality issue to someone not familiar with it.


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## woodgeek (Jan 1, 2020)

I live upwind of the second most populous city of the East Coast.  And I think PM2.5 and PM10 are a threat, and I have an old, pre-EPA stove.

I try to burn only biomass block (which are low smoke in my rig) and when the weather is favorable for particle dispersal....rain and/or wind.


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## Piney (Jan 11, 2020)

Nearest neighbour is an old fellow in a cabin a mile away across the river.  Smoke is not an issue for us and we groan every time some govt authority talks about forcing change upon everyone in the name of 'neighbourly progress' or whatever.


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## semipro (Jan 11, 2020)

In our area of Appalachia the wood fired boilers seem to be the main culprits.  Many home here burn wood but when when you trace a smokey trail back to its source its usually a wood boiler.  
Personally, I think these things have a lot of potential.  Unfortunately, the way they are typical operated at a slow smolder with wet wood is giving wood burners a bad name.


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## Smolder (Jan 11, 2020)

Piney said:


> Nearest neighbour is an old fellow in a cabin a mile away across the river.  Smoke is not an issue for us and we groan every time some govt authority talks about forcing change upon everyone in the name of 'neighbourly progress' or whatever.



I’m with you. A single small forest fire probably makes more “particulate” than a nations wood heating does. No one here wants to be told how they should heat. We pay carbon taxes on heating fuel (like one has a choice).


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## ABMax24 (Jan 11, 2020)

I also think that forest fires are a huge source of emissions as well, for the last 4 years we have had at least a couple days where the forest fire smoke was so bad we couldn't see to the end of our street. We had a summer day in June of 2018 that the smoke was so bad we thought the apocalypse was coming, the sky was black with a faint red glow where the sun should be and ash falling from the sky, this was from a fire 500km away in Prince George BC.

That being said I don't see the need to pollute for no reason, I'd be pretty mad if I constantly had smoke drifting into my yard from some neighbors poor burning habits.


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## Piney (Jan 12, 2020)

semipro said:


> In our area of Appalachia the wood fired boilers seem to be the main culprits.  Many home here burn wood but when when you trace a smokey trail back to its source its usually a wood boiler.
> Personally, I think these things have a lot of potential.  Unfortunately, the way they are typical operated at a slow smolder with wet wood is giving wood burners a bad name.


Yah. Same here on the plateau from what I can see ....


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## Piney (Jan 12, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> I also think that forest fires are a huge source of emissions as well, for the last 4 years we have had at least a couple days where the forest fire smoke was so bad we couldn't see to the end of our street. We had a summer day in June of 2018 that the smoke was so bad we thought the apocalypse was coming, the sky was black with a faint red glow where the sun should be and ash falling from the sky, this was from a fire 500km away in Prince George BC.
> 
> That being said I don't see the need to pollute for no reason, I'd be pretty mad if I constantly had smoke drifting into my yard from some neighbors poor burning habits.


Sure. But is it pollution in an absolute sense to the earth or is it pollution because the EPA said it was? Moses didn't have a third tablet defining ppm of wood smoke particulate.   
I do hear you, and agree, but there is a cost to everything and I wonder if invisible natural gas burn byproducts might persist in the atmosphere longer (science says yes) and what the impacts might be.
It's all, sort of, easily vilified but actually a bit of a mystery.
 That said: dry wood, hot fires.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 12, 2020)

Piney said:


> Sure. But is it pollution in an absolute sense to the earth or is it pollution because the EPA said it was? Moses didn't have a third tablet defining ppm of wood smoke particulate.
> I do hear you, and agree, but there is a cost to everything and I wonder if invisible natural gas burn byproducts might persist in the atmosphere longer (science says yes) and what the impacts might be.
> It's all, sort of, easily vilified but actually a bit of a mystery.
> That said: dry wood, hot fires.



I'm not sure what natural gas combustion byproducts you speak of, everything in natural gas flue gases is also present in wood flue gases except wood creates has a higher concentration of these byproducts.

Pollution is considered to be hazardous to human health, constantly breathing wood smoke fumes isn't good for you, in the same way smoking and second hand smoke shortens your life span.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 12, 2020)

Hopefully all of the smoke dragons will be replaced with clean burning appliances in the future. Not just for clean air, but also so folks can live easier lives and have to work less or spend less money on firewood. Certainly forest fires are making way more smoke and problems than wood stoves, but at least the wood stoves are under human control. 

I do agree that many of the worst offenders are wood boilers. Many folks here in Maine like to burn truck loads of unseasoned logs in boilers all winter. It's mind blowing to me, but cheaper than oil I suppose.


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## Piney (Jan 12, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> I'm not sure what natural gas combustion byproducts you speak of, everything in natural gas flue gases is also present in wood flue gases except wood creates has a higher concentration of these byproducts.
> 
> Pollution is considered to be hazardous to human health, constantly breathing wood smoke fumes isn't good for you, in the same way smoking and second hand smoke shortens your life span.


Sure, though natural gas has some different stuff in its smoke.  It's an excellent fuel and even EPA stoves used properly can't equal its minimum particulate output level but its smoke impact and behaviours in the environment are somewhat different than that of wood smoke.
But we have to heat and we aren't all passive geothermal so pros and cons must be weighed for sure. Human health factors  and environmental impact factors are often included in working definitions of pollution and may, or may not, significantly intersect.
I like these articles as a primer as they are easily accessible and easy to follow, though getting a bit long in the tooth.
They're interesting.  Apologies if it's all old hat.
https://woodheat.org/attachments/article/hpawma.pdf

https://woodheat.org/wood-smoke.html


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## peakbagger (Jan 12, 2020)

I do get a chuckle that the "evil" polyaromatic hydrocarbons in wood smoke is what makes barbeque taste so good. 

That said, burning wood tends to line up with other individual liberty issues.  Its relatively easy to put in place new standards for new wood burning appliances but getting rid of old ones in use is definitely a hot button topic. Stove buy out programs can take old stoves out of use but is expensive as there a lot them out there so someone needs to finance the programs. 

Even with buy outs, there is no practical way of burning green wood. As long as people try to, they are going to figure out a way of bypassing the design aspects of the newer stoves to burn green and slow.


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## semipro (Jan 12, 2020)

I wonder sometimes if EPA's clean wood burning efforts wouldn't be better spent on educating about burning cleanly and creating and enforcing standards for firewood quality (e.g. defining "seasoned").


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## Piney (Jan 12, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> I do get a chuckle that the "evil" polyaromatic hydrocarbons in wood smoke is what makes barbeque taste so good.
> 
> That said, burning wood tends to line up with other individual liberty issues.  Its relatively easy to put in place new standards for new wood burning appliances but getting rid of old ones in use is definitely a hot button topic. Stove buy out programs can take old stoves out of use but is expensive as there a lot them out there so someone needs to finance the programs.
> 
> Even with buy outs, there is no practical way of burning green wood. As long as people try to, they are going to figure out a way of bypassing the design aspects of the newer stoves to burn green and slow.


So very true


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## Starbrightsteve (Jan 14, 2020)

I live in rural nortcentral PA and I’m surprised that lots of folks that used to burn wood 20 years ago have switched to n. Gas and propane. It used to be that if a tree fell along a road, it would be gone the next day. Now it lays and rots. But there are lots of old stoves out here. My friend Bob the welder made his own outside wood boiler. The chimney is an 8 “ gas line pipe and he cleans it with a fire dragon propane torch. He starts a chimney fire. He knows I think his setup is BS. But I think the think the thing that bothers me the most is folks with a burn barel that burn plastic. My next door neighbor does this every other day. His burn barrel smokes for about 5 hours every time he uses it.


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## Piney (Jan 14, 2020)

the neighbour doesn't sound neighbourly


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## peakbagger (Jan 15, 2020)

The neighbor with a burn barrel is potentially putting out a very toxic brew into the local air including furans and dioxins (the prime toxic in Agent Orange). A few house hold burn barrels can exceed the toxic air emissions of large waste to energy plant. The toxic cloud is not staying on his property its impact properties around his. If the neighbor was a business it highly likely the state or fed could shut him down.


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## jatoxico (Jan 15, 2020)

Starbrightsteve said:


> My next door neighbor does this every other day. His burn barrel smokes for about 5 hours every time he uses it



Half the time these are the guys that complain about it first and loudest but are the reason for gub'mit oversight and regulation. Then the rest of us end up paying the price of any over-reach.


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2020)

jatoxico said:


> Half the time these are the guys that complain about it first and loudest but are the reason for gub'mit oversight and regulation. Then the rest of us end up paying the price of any over-reach.


I recall reading a New Zealand report some years back on this issue. They surveyed some communities that often had winter inversions and serious wood smoke issues. It turned out that fireplaces and open fires were the number one cause there.


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## Sawset (Jan 15, 2020)

begreen said:


> had winter inversions and serious wood smoke issues. It turned out that fireplaces and open fires were the number one cause there.


In the 80s we were looking for a house to buy, here in WI.  Visited one, summer, subdivision, in a valley, 40ac of haze and smoke, mostly from outdoor grilling.  Suppose everyone has a right to cook some burgers outdoors, but it was a deal breaker for us.  No way we wanted to live in that.


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## jatoxico (Jan 15, 2020)

begreen said:


> I recall reading a New Zealand report some years back on this issue. They surveyed some communities that often had winter inversions and serious wood smoke issues. It turned out that fireplaces and open fires were the number one cause there.



I was wondering when someone would bring this up. Even if you, as I do, believe in the need for research and appropriate regulation, taking existing wood stoves to a new standard while leaving open fireplaces completely alone damages the credibility of regulatory agencies.


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## peakbagger (Jan 15, 2020)

Probably of the more scenic spots in New England is the Franconia Parkway going through Franconia Notch (former home of New Hampshire's Old Man on the Mountain). The fed and the state spent a lot of money building the parkway through the Notch to connected up Interstate 93 on either side. There had to be congressional action to build it as its 2 lanes in spots. Almost in the middle of it is state campground. Frequently when I drive through in the summer there is distinct wood smell and haze as I round the corner past the campground.

Barbeque smokers are potentially major sources of low level smog. As mentioned in one my posts Polyaromatic Hydrocarbons (PAHs), are the major source of smoke flavor for the meat in a smoker yet also are a major form of air emissions from poor wood combustion. Effectively a good barbeque grill is a smoke dragon.  I am surprised the EPA has not gone after commercial BBQ operations but expect they realize the potential PR hit they would take. Much as well done barbeque tastes great, its usually flagged by health authorities that its one of least heathy ways to cook meat. 

They did go after large bakeries years ago as the fresh bread smell is sign of  Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) Emissions.  Most large bakeries have to install catalytic oxidizers to "burn" the oven exhausts.  To date I am not sure if the chocolate smell near chocolate factories has any health effects


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## blades (Jan 15, 2020)

much moreenjoyable to drive past the chocolate plant than the paint line at Briggs & Stratton back in the late 70's


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## SpaceBus (Jan 15, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> Probably of the more scenic spots in New England is the Franconia Parkway going through Franconia Notch (former home of New Hampshire's Old Man on the Mountain). The fed and the state spent a lot of money building the parkway through the Notch to connected up Interstate 93 on either side. There had to be congressional action to build it as its 2 lanes in spots. Almost in the middle of it is state campground. Frequently when I drive through in the summer there is distinct wood smell and haze as I round the corner past the campground.
> 
> Barbeque smokers are potentially major sources of low level smog. As mentioned in one my posts Polyaromatic Hydrocarbons (PAHs), are the major source of smoke flavor for the meat in a smoker yet also are a major form of air emissions from poor wood combustion. Effectively a good barbeque grill is a smoke dragon.  I am surprised the EPA has not gone after commercial BBQ operations but expect they realize the potential PR hit they would take. Much as well done barbeque tastes great, its usually flagged by health authorities that its one of least heathy ways to cook meat.
> 
> They did go after large bakeries years ago as the fresh bread smell is sign of  Volatile Organic Compound (VOC) Emissions.  Most large bakeries have to install catalytic oxidizers to "burn" the oven exhausts.  To date I am not sure if the chocolate smell near chocolate factories has any health effects


I have been very depressed ever since I learned about the ecological and human effects of smoked meat. Some of my favorite dishes are smoked meat which I haven't had for years.


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## Piney (Jan 15, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I have been very depressed ever since I learned about the ecological and human effects of smoked meat. Some of my favorite dishes are smoked meat which I haven't had for years.


Ah. But how long does it take smoked meat to get you? You could treat yourself and set a goal by promising to take it up again on your 70th birthday or something.
Everyone benefits from having something to look forward to.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 15, 2020)

Piney said:


> Ah. But how long does it take smoked meat to get you? You could treat yourself and set a goal by promising to take it up again on your 70th birthday or something.
> Everyone benefits from having something to look forward to.


Depressed is a strong word, but I take my food very seriously.


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## Piney (Jan 15, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Depressed is a strong word, but I take my food very seriously.


Indeed. Perhaps deciding to wait  until your 70th bd to start eating smoked meat again is too long a wait to offer any comfort.


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## Sawset (Jan 15, 2020)

blades said:


> much moreenjoyable to drive past the chocolate plant than the paint line at Briggs & Stratton back in the late 70's


I interviewed (and was hired) at a place in 95 that had an extensive paint line. After a 2hr interview -  check in with the owner - spent another 1/2hr ranting about how the DNR was resticting and monitoring the line exhausts. He's retired in Florida and Hayward now - doesn't care.


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## semipro (Jan 15, 2020)

Piney said:


> Ah. But how long does it take smoked meat to get you? You could treat yourself and set a goal by promising to take it up again on your 70th birthday or something.
> Everyone benefits from having something to look forward to.


Of course by then you won't be able to see it, smell it, chew it, or keep it down if you eat too late.


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## blades (Jan 16, 2020)

Sawset said:


> I interviewed (and was hired) at a place in 95 that had an extensive paint line. After a 2hr interview -  check in with the owner - spent another 1/2hr ranting about how the DNR was resticting and monitoring the line exhausts. He's retired in Florida and Hayward now - doesn't care.


  lot of things have changed since then- Powder coating  for one instead of  one type or another of paint.   the huge briggs complex at 124th and Burleigh in Milwaukee is a shadow of it's former self. They were not particularly employee friendly back in the day either from comments made to me by former employees - there were some pretty nasty squables between Briggs and the various unions back then.


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## Smolder (Jan 19, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> I also think that forest fires are a huge source of emissions as well, for the last 4 years we have had at least a couple days where the forest fire smoke was so bad we couldn't see to the end of our street. We had a summer day in June of 2018 that the smoke was so bad we thought the apocalypse was coming, the sky was black with a faint red glow where the sun should be and ash falling from the sky, this was from a fire 500km away in Prince George BC.
> 
> That being said I don't see the need to pollute for no reason, I'd be pretty mad if I constantly had smoke drifting into my yard from some neighbors poor burning habits.



I’m not talking about stank smolder fires. I’m talking about a good fires from older stoves they way they’ve been since mankind figured out how to make a stove.


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## Smolder (Jan 19, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I have been very depressed ever since I learned about the ecological and human effects of smoked meat. Some of my favorite dishes are smoked meat which I haven't had for years.


Just smoke it yourself?


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## SpaceBus (Jan 19, 2020)

Smolder said:


> Just smoke it yourself?


Even if I smoke it myself the meat will still be full of carcinogens.


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## Sawset (Jan 19, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Even if I smoke it myself the meat will still be full of carcinogens.


Talk to centarians - a beer a day, smoked ribs, and a cigarette.


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## Smolder (Jan 19, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Even if I smoke it myself the meat will still be full of carcinogens.



Oh, for sure. I’m not to worried about them. If that’s what gets me, at least I enjoyed getting got.


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2020)

Sawset said:


> Talk to centarians - a beer a day, smoked ribs, and a cigarette.


A few are lucky to say that. Not all have the same genetic makeup.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 20, 2020)

Smolder said:


> I’m not talking about stank smolder fires. I’m talking about a good fires from older stoves they way they’ve been since mankind figured out how to make a stove.



90% of the time when I go outside with my stove burning I can't smell it, I appreciate that, I'm sure my neighbors do as well. I rarely see smoke out of the cap, just steam. Now when I drive through an older neighborhood I can smell a house with an old wood stove long before I see it, and it isn't hard to spot with the trail of blue smoke from the chimney. 

I like campfires and the smell of smoke, when I'm camping, but not in the middle of our small city. It's also hard on those with medical conditions, my fiances grandfather has COPD and it's brutal what a small amount of wood smoke does to him.


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