# Weird outlet wiring



## faultymechanics (Jan 3, 2021)

Hello all,

My wife and I just closed in a house and I’ve been going through replacing almost all the outlets.

I came across an outlet today that was different from the others (still a typical 15a US outlet). Instead of the normal 2 white, 2 black and ground bundle, this one had 3 white, 1 black and a ground. The extra white was on the same side as the hot wire(black). Is that normal?

I don’t want to burn my house down....


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## bholler (Jan 3, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I just closed in a house and I’ve been going through replacing almost all the outlets.
> 
> ...


Nothing else in the box at all?  That is very odd


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## PA Mountain Man (Jan 3, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> Hello all,
> 
> My wife and I just closed in a house and I’ve been going through replacing almost all the outlets.
> 
> ...


No not normal. Do you have 2 romex coming into the box? or is it conduit?
Pictures would help
You need one these








						Power Gear 3-Wire Receptacle Tester 50542 - The Home Depot
					

Make sure all your wiring is correct with the Power Gear Receptacle Tester. This 3-wire tester detects probable improper wiring conditions in standard 110-125 VAC outlets. Testing to make sure wiring is correct saves you time and prevents double work. The tester displays different lighting...



					www.homedepot.com


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## brenndatomu (Jan 3, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> Instead of the normal 2 white, 2 black and ground bundle, this one had 3 white, 1 black and a ground. The extra white was on the same side as the hot wire(black).


Does the extra white wire have black electrical tape wrapped around it? You see that sometimes where someone used the wrong wire color, but taped the ends to be the right color...


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## PA Mountain Man (Jan 3, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> Does the extra white wire have black electrical tape wrapped around it? You see that sometimes where someone used the wrong wire color, but taped the ends to be the right color...


If the wires come into the box thru conduit, I could see that. But romex comes with 1 black and 1 white...


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## brenndatomu (Jan 3, 2021)

PA Mountain Man said:


> If the wires come into the box thru conduit, I could see that. But romex comes with 1 black and 1 white...


Maybe there is an extra romex...with the other wires cut off? Some weird stuff out there...


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## PA Mountain Man (Jan 3, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> Maybe there is an extra romex...with the other wires cut off? Some weird stuff out there...


Amen to that. I do mostly commercial and I see it there also.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 3, 2021)

So it comes into the box as groups of cable, no hard conduit. The solid core wires are wrapped in a plastic like sleeving , so I’m thinking Romex?

My father suggested the extra white neutral wire is coming from a nearby light switch? Does that sound possible?

 Almost like they’re routing power through the outlet by putting the neutral on the same side as the hot and then using the wall switch to control power to the light(or whatever it powers).

I do have a test I’ll be bringing with me to the house tomorrow.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 3, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> Does the extra white wire have black electrical tape wrapped around it? You see that sometimes where someone used the wrong wire color, but taped the ends to be the right color...



No electrical tape or anything signifying that. This was my initial thought, maybe they just ran out of black wire? Seems like a bad place to substitute white for black though.


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## PA Mountain Man (Jan 3, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> So it comes into the box as groups of cable, no hard conduit. The solid core wires are wrapped in a plastic like sleeving , so I’m thinking Romex?
> 
> My father suggested the extra white neutral wire is coming from a nearby light switch? Does that sound possible?
> 
> ...


I need pictures.


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## xman23 (Jan 3, 2021)

So this white wire and the black wire were on the hot side of the outlet. More than likely  they just ran out of conductors from point A to B, and used the white wire. Not everyone is good at taping the wire to be the proper color.

One other scenario is when you split the outlet. That is use the top plug to be hot, and the bottom to operate from a switch. You cut a small metal piece between the two hot side screws. Hence the two wires.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 4, 2021)

xman23 said:


> So this white wire and the black wire were on the hot side of the outlet. More than likely  they just ran out of conductors from point A to B, and used the white wire. Not everyone is good at taping the wire to be the proper color.
> 
> One other scenario is when you split the outlet. That is use the top plug to be hot, and the bottom to operate from a switch. You cut a small metal piece between the two hot side screws. Hence the two wires.



It seems to make the outlet tester happy so it may very well be the first part you mentioned. I know it has been wired this way for probably 50-60years.

Unfortunately I was busy installing more outlets today to pull the outlet and take some photos.

I ended up running into a few more issues.

I have three outlets with loose outlet boxes. Two of those outlets also had the holes made too big so they sink into the wall AND the plate doesn’t cover the hole.







I need a non invasive solution for this if there is one haha.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 4, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> I have three outlets with loose outlet boxes. Two of those outlets also had the holes made too big so they sink into the wall AND the plate doesn’t cover the hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like a good place for oversized or jumbo outlet covers...


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## mcdougy (Jan 4, 2021)

Red green found duct tape painted, solved alot of issues??  That hot white wire is heading somewhere, be careful changing light fixtures or switches it might show up when your not expecting it....everyone knows an electrician, I suggest letting one have a quick look at what is going on....by the way the boxes were cut in (hammer) someone was pretty crude.


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## PA Mountain Man (Jan 4, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> It seems to make the outlet tester happy so it may very well be the first part you mentioned. I know it has been wired this way for probably 50-60years.
> 
> Unfortunately I was busy installing more outlets today to pull the outlet and take some photos.
> 
> ...


Oversize cover plates might work. Bigger problem is the boxes moving.These look like metal cut in boxes and you need to get the clips to secure them to the wall board if its not broken out too far.
This might cover the hole


			https://www.lowes.com/pd/CARLON-2-Gang-Blue-Plastic-Old-Work-Standard-Switch-Outlet-Wall-Electrical-Box/1000975972
		

Then you need a different cover plate.
Or do the duct tape...


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## brenndatomu (Jan 4, 2021)

That's not a bad idea, go to a double box, (cut in a much more precise hole this time) then just get a cover with one side blank...


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## PA Mountain Man (Jan 4, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> It seems to make the outlet tester happy so it may very well be the first part you mentioned. I know it has been wired this way for probably 50-60years.
> 
> Unfortunately I was busy installing more outlets today to pull the outlet and take some photos.
> 
> ...


Oversize cover plates might work. Bigger problem is the boxes moving.These look like metal cut in boxes and you need to get the clips to secure them to the wall board if its not broken out too far.


brenndatomu said:


> That's not a bad idea, go to a double box, (cut in a much more precise hole this time) then just get a cover with one side blank...


Improvise, adapt and overcome


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## brenndatomu (Jan 4, 2021)

PA Mountain Man said:


> Oversize cover plates might work. Bigger problem is the boxes moving.These look like metal cut in boxes and you need to get the clips to secure them to the wall board if its not broken out too far.


It almost looks like there is a clip only on one side? (maybe none on the GFI?) Need to stick a second one on there to make a pair if so...should look like this...




These might help too...








						Device Leveler and Retainer
					

Device Leveling Clip




					www.garvinindustries.com


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## Bad LP (Jan 5, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> It almost looks like there is a clip only on one side? (maybe none on the GFI?) Need to stick a second one on there to make a pair if so...should look like this...
> View attachment 271301
> 
> These might help too...
> ...


Madison Bars is what they are called.


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## rwhite (Jan 6, 2021)

Hard to say without a pic of the wiring but it does sound like a 1/2 switch outlet like this
The other issue is the box. The large plate may cover the hole but shouldn't be relied upon to stabilize the outlet. If it were me I'd try to replace with an old work box and maybe the arms would get some purchase on the wallboard.  The other option is try to square up the hole  to get a plate of some type behind the wall and then cut a piece of wallboard to fit the square and screw it together.  Then you could hide it all behind the plate.


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## rwhite (Jan 6, 2021)

Based on the shoddy installation I'd check a few other things as well. Make sure you don't have a random switch that does nothing. That usually means they replaced outlets and just swapped wires and didn't break the tabs. I'd check every outlet on the circuit. Also make sure that when the breaker is off there is no power to either the top or bottom plug ins.


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## Highbeam (Jan 6, 2021)

We don't have plaster or other weird wall coverings here in the PNW very often and I've made life very miserable for myself trying to save the old sheetrock. I've changed my approach to this type of problem over the years and now I just cut out a big 12"x16"square of drywall, fix the electrical shortcomings, replace the box with a new work box, and then install a new drywall panel. 

It's really easy to work with drywall and mud. If this is some sort of horsehair lathe stuff from the 1800s then I don't know but since you have romex I suspect you're working with sheetrock.

If the hole is just oversized but the box is tight and the electrical all good then there are ways to repair the oversize hole. You might have to make the hole a little bigger to start but it's not a hard deal.


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## rwhite (Jan 6, 2021)

It appears to be a celotex type wall board. If the thickness is the same it can be patched with drywall.


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## blades (Jan 6, 2021)

If you really want to have fun , try playing with low voltage switch circuits circa late 50's early 60's .  The 110v line switching is handled by relays which also means there is  one or more step down transformers hiding out  ( typically 24v ac) which may or may not be located in or on the box of the outlets or fixtures. ( that's the cheap way) Proper way  was everything was brought to a master cabinet  with all the relays and step down transformers there in.  I have had 2 homes with this over the years. First one was a nightmare - nothing like digging through 12+" of blown in fiberglass to find a malfunctioning relay/ transformer ( switches seldom go out but relay contacts go south). So instead of a couple bucks for a new switch its $20-30 ( or it used to be) for a relay/ transformer even more fun when it is part of a multiswitch for the same fixture circuit. A lot like chasing down malfunctioning doorbell wiring ( generally 22 gauge bell wire( may or may not be in twisted pairs).


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## rwhite (Jan 6, 2021)

blades said:


> If you really want to have fun , try playing with low voltage switch circuits circa late 50's early 60's .  The 110v line switching is handled by relays which also means there is  one or more step down transformers hiding out  ( typically 24v ac) which may or may not be located in or on the box of the outlets or fixtures. ( that's the cheap way) Proper way  was everything was brought to a master cabinet  with all the relays and step down transformers there in.  I have had 2 homes with this over the years. First one was a nightmare - nothing like digging through 12+" of blown in fiberglass to find a malfunctioning relay/ transformer ( switches seldom go out but relay contacts go south). So instead of a couple bucks for a new switch its $20-30 ( or it used to be) for a relay/ transformer even more fun when it is part of a multiswitch for the same fixture circuit. A lot like chasing down malfunctioning doorbell wiring ( generally 22 gauge bell wire( may or may not be in twisted pairs).


My last home wiring was done by a monkey with a hammer. They ran partial new wire to switched outlets but left the old wire for the bottom plug. Everything checked out fine with a tester but in reality they didnt break the tabs and they put the switch on a different circuit. So even if you shut off 1 breaker it was back fed by the other. That was a mess to straighten out.


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## Eureka (Jan 7, 2021)

You have 20 amp outlets, and I highly doubt they’re connected to big enough wire or the proper breaker.  Just guessing but it’s a very common thing and not good because a 20 amp household device can draw through wire that can only handle 15 amps.


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## The.Devo (Jan 7, 2021)

Start simple, disconnect the wire and see what doesn't work.


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## Dobish (Jan 7, 2021)

i am finally getting the last remaining wierdo outlets taken care of.. i was up in the attic this past weekend running new wires, replacing the 10 junctions that were not in boxes, and putting in some can lights. None of the outlets were grounded in my living room, so I ran all new wires, and cleaned everything up. I put in some new dimmers and decided to replace the lamp cord, fully exposed, that is coming out of the non-gfci outlet.... its been like that for 40+ years, and nothing has been an issue. of course when I went to run the new wire I found  the switch was wired backwards and I gave myself a little buzz  (yes, i should have killed the power, or at least tested it, my 5 year old already scolded me for not following Rule #1 of electrical work.)

this is just one example of what I found buried behind a false wall... all live outlets, the only thing I did in this picture is remove the wall...




My house was "amended" by a contractor who literally used scraps left over from jobs..... i am really surprised that nothing has caught on fire!


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## zrock (Jan 10, 2021)

Gotta love what some people get away with... Used to Run a nightclub that was in a hotel... The ratsnest of electrical was just scary some back yard maintenance guy from another country would cut up whatever extension cord to run new electrical and tape it together.  Then they would wonder why the top of the line sound equipment and lights were always having issues... Told the owner he had a law suite on his hands if something ever happened.. Took pictures and sent them to a inspector and the place got shut down shortly after until it was fixed. They never did reopen the night club as it required a total gut by the time they found all the crap in their... Was to bad as it was the hotspot as well..


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## gzecc (Jan 10, 2021)

Its really amazing there aren't more fires from the shoddy electric work in peoples houses.


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## Dobish (Jan 10, 2021)

gzecc said:


> Its really amazing there aren't more fires from the shoddy electric work in peoples houses.


Yep. I also just pulled an exposed ungrounded wire from a box going outside.  Then there was a lamp cord tying the light to it. All just dangling in the elements.  Whole box was filled with mud and bugs....  i have to find my panel when i moved in...


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## faultymechanics (Jan 11, 2021)

Okay so brief update. I got everything wired up and installed with new outlets. I will in the future pull my 20A plugs to double check the gauge but it did actually look larger than a standard outlet so that was nice. I'll also be mindful of what we're plugging into those outlets until I get the chance to confirm. I don't think I have any 20a devices besides my welder and that isn't being used upstairs haha.

Using extra supports and the "flush-plate" I was able to get those outlets firmly supported so they don't move.  Whoever mentioned there was only one support, you were right. The other box didn't have any. I did buy some old work boxes in case I want a project down the road. Larger plates covered 95% of the hole in the wall. The last bit I was able to just spackle and cover up without much issue. Obviously there is a more invasive way to fix those issues but this works fine and is safe.

I actually found two outlets in the house with the slightly strange, white wire on the hot side setup and both are in rooms with switches that have no ceiling lights. I'm guessing they are switched outlets but I haven't confirmed by plugging something in and trying it. I've just been using one of those plug testers to verify it is wired correctly. 

Based on what I've seen online, I was blessed with considerably better wiring than most. The house was rewired at some point in its life and it definitely seems to have been done right which is SUPER nice. Just tells me it wasn't the previous owners who did the job but someone else before them....people who had the house before me were cheap as hell.

I was raised on, do it once, do it right. Oh and my favorite, buy once, cry once.


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## Dobish (Jan 11, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> I don't think I have any 20a devices besides my welder and that isn't being used upstairs haha.
> 
> I was raised on, do it once, do it right. Oh and my favorite, buy once, cry once.



Both good philosophies,  but i can think of plenty of times i wish i had a welder in my kitchen! Creme brulee the quick way!


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## blades (Jan 11, 2021)

if the wire( it's self) is larger and silver colored it is aluminum.  popular for awhile as a cost cutting measure but other issue arose down the line.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 11, 2021)

blades said:


> if the wire( it's self) is larger and silver colored it is aluminum.  popular for awhile as a cost cutting measure but other issue arose down the line.


Happy to report it's all solid copper wire


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## Dobish (Jan 11, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> Happy to report it's all solid copper wire


Lucky


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## Highbeam (Jan 11, 2021)

Dobish said:


> Both good philosophies,  but i can think of plenty of times i wish i had a welder in my kitchen! Creme brulee the quick way!



Another use for this handy fire starter always at the ready.


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## hockeypuck (Jan 12, 2021)

gzecc said:


> Its really amazing there aren't more fires from the shoddy electric work in peoples houses.


Dirty secret and do not tell your local fire department, if a building was going to catch on fire from electrical work, it already happened. Only reason why a building would burn down due to electrical work would be is a noob messed with an existing installation especially if it was an older wiring method like BX or knob and tube.  Houses burn now due to improper wood stove installations or accidents with electric space heaters and cigarettes. Very rarely do you hear one burning due to poor electrical installations.  I agree it is surprising that there are not more.  I will do a little research and come up with some numbers.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 12, 2021)

I did find one miswiring I need to figure out how to correct. two 3-way switches controlling the same light in the kitchen. One will only work if the other switch is set to on. I'm guessing they mixed some wires up somewhere. Maybe the two black wires were switched, common and the traveller? I don't know light switch wiring super well and am still learning.

Thankfully that's just a miswire and not janky wiring. 

Currently working on replacing toggle switches with decora switches as well as installing some smart home switches.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 12, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> One will only work if the other switch is set to on.


Sounds like one of the switches has a bad contact to me...could be miswired, but my money is on bad switch.


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## CatfishHunter (Jan 12, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> I actually found two outlets in the house with the slightly strange, white wire on the hot side setup and both are in rooms with switches that have no ceiling lights. I'm guessing they are switched outlets but I haven't confirmed by plugging something in and trying it. I've just been using one of those plug testers to verify it is wired correctly.


I'm late to this electrical party, but I agree with your assessment above. If there were no ceiling lights then they likely ran switched outlets for lamps. You'll have to test it with a radio or lamp plugged in. I got rid of those in my house immediately. Outlets always work in my world, they aren't switched. I climbed up in the attic, cut holes, and put in nice ceiling fan/lights for rooms without a light source.

As for the 20amp outlets, check to see if the breaker is 20amp. If so, the most important final check is the wiring. If the used 15amp anywhere in that circuit you could have a wire meltdown. Remember that it's not just about running one appliance that is 20amps. It is the total load being put on that circuit. If there is 15amp wire running from a 20amp breaker, you could have a few amps on various outlets/lights that all add up to more than 15amps. That is where most people melt wires. The breaker won't trip because you are still under 20amps but the wire will be overloaded.


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## fbelec (Jan 15, 2021)

i run into the white wire on the hot side a lot. it's just a case of the installer or someone changing the out used the wrong color. that white wire is from a switch. every outlet has tabs between the screws that you break off. just the black side. then the switch will work half the outlet. if the tab is not broken off the switch does nothing and the outlet is live all the time.

if a 20 receptacle is hooked to a 15 amp circuit the code says it is acceptable. the outlet is a little beefier to handle 20 amps doesn't mean it's going to light on fire. the code also says if you have more than one outlet on a 20 amp circuit you can use 15 amp outlets as long as the connected load is not drawing more the the 15 amp rating.

highbeam had the oversized hole for the boxes right cut out a bigger section stud to stud install a plastic box because they hold more wires. or move the box over to one side or the other and patch to old hole. 

if your outlets are in a bedroom or livingroom or lighting and the breaker says 20 amps it is probably wrong there is some 15 amp wire somewhere in the circuit and the breaker should be changed to a 15 amp of the same make as the panel. hope i didn't miss anything.

frank


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## Eureka (Jan 15, 2021)

I’ve seen a lot of houses around here that have 15 amp breakers on 14 gauge wire that switched out for 20 amp breakers to overcome nuisance tripping; not good. 
 I’m pretty sure some bonehead handyman  electrician thought that he came up with a great idea to fix people’s breaker tripping problems.
It is common to see 20 amp receptacles on 15 amp circuits; no problem there.


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## Highbeam (Jan 15, 2021)

Eureka said:


> I’ve seen a lot of houses around here that have 15 amp breakers on 14 gauge wire that switched out for 20 amp breakers to overcome nuisance tripping; not good.
> I’m pretty sure some bonehead handyman  electrician thought that he came up with a great idea to fix people’s breaker tripping problems.
> It is common to see 20 amp receptacles on 15 amp circuits; no problem there.



I replaced a zinsco main panel in my current house and it had several 20 amp breakers connected to 14 gauge copper in the panel. The new breakers are 15 amp to match the 14 gauge copper. No nuisance trips. Not sure why it was that way but I sure like my huge siemens panel. Got to use the built in interlock several times over the last few days due to power outages. 

My old house has a problem with old outlets that don't grab onto the plugs anymore. So slowly replaced them and I happily pay the extra 50 cents for the new outlets that you shove the wire in back and tighten a screw to clamp the wire. No hooks, no spring loaded things, just tight and straight. Of course, there are rules now about the TR outlets which I dislike.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 15, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> One will only work if the other switch is set to on.


If its a 3 way switch the wrong switch terminal was used as a power source
 for the extra light.  I have one like that but it would take a lot of ripping and tearing to correct it. Back porch light is wired to the wrong end of my 3 way kitchen switch ,so only works when the kitchen light is on. Works out though as i can turn off both lights from the far end.


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## fbelec (Jan 16, 2021)

highbeam it's good you rid of the old zinsco. they started house fires. anybody still have them get rid of them. also if anyone stills has the old federal pacific get rid of those, also started so many fires the company went bankrupt. i pulled a couple of federal pacific panels out of a guys house that had electric heat. i warned him for years until he sold and the new owner made him change them. when i did pull the guts out the tubs had a softball size burn on them. i think someone upstairs was looking out for him.


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## fbelec (Jan 16, 2021)

three way switches are easy. i don't know how to make a picture of this so bare with me. if you have to change a three way switch just remember that any three way switch has a different color screw for the common of the switch. might be black or it could be copper while the other two (we call travelers)are brass screws. doesn't matter which wire goes where. if your not sure for each switch there is power, light and wires. if you only have a 3 wire cable hooked to a switch then the light and power (two wire cables) are at the other box. if only a 3 wire cable then the one wire that has power is the common. usually white. the other two wires are travelers and the go to the brass screws. if you have 2 two wire cables and a 3 wire cable in one box then you'll find one of those 2 wire cables is hot and the other two wire cable is the light. the hot should go to the white wire of the three wire cable going to the other switch that connects to the common. the white wire in the box with the 2 two wire cables and a 3 wire cable each white on those two wire cables connect together. the light fixtures black wire connects to the common of that switch and the travelers from one switch to the other connect to the two brass screws on each. hope i didn't miss anything.

frank


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## semipro (Jan 16, 2021)

By far the biggest electrical hazard I've found in 6+ houses we've lived in was caused by the use of push-in, or back stab,  (no screw) outlet connections.  Outlets farther down a circuit would go dead and I'd find a feeder outlet with obvious signs of overheating from excess electrical resistance.  I'd never recommended using any type of electrical connection that relies upon only spring pressure for securement.  I've noticed that many new fixtures (lights, fans, etc.) come with this type of connector.  I cut it out and install a wire nut instead.


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## Eureka (Jan 16, 2021)

semipro said:


> By far the biggest electrical hazard I've found in 6+ houses we've lived in was caused by the use of push-in, or back stab,  (no screw) outlet connections.


I have always, and will continue to think those are absolute garbage.  
I’m not an electrician, my experience comes from remodeling, but the wire usually just pulls out the back with a light tug, and they’re always heated/scorched looking.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2021)

semipro said:


> By far the biggest electrical hazard I've found in 6+ houses we've lived in was caused by the use of push-in, or back stab,  (no screw) outlet connections.
> 
> View attachment 272041


They dont use those anymore for outlets .  Only on light switches.


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## hockeypuck (Jan 17, 2021)

Seasoned Oak said:


> They dont use those anymore for outlets .  Only on light switches.


I agree.. not an issue for true "15 amp" circuits.  The problem gets created when someone plugs a window AC into a switched circuit.


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## semipro (Jan 17, 2021)

Seasoned Oak said:


> They dont use those anymore for outlets .  Only on light switches.


They're still commonly available.  My local HD has 81 in stock.  Leviton calls the feature "Quickwire".
From their documentation:
"To Quickwire™: Insert straight #14 AWG solid copper wires into round Quickwire™ holes. Quickwire™ terminals accept #14 AWG solid copper wires ONLY! For circuits with #12 AWG solid copper or copper clad wires, use terminal screws instead. If the receptacle must be replaced or rewired after Quickwiring, gently press the tip of a small screwdriver in the release slot and back the wire out gradually."


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## semipro (Jan 17, 2021)

Seasoned Oak said:


> They dont use those anymore for outlets . Only on light switches.





hockeypuck said:


> I agree.. not an issue for true "15 amp" circuits.  The problem gets created when someone plugs a window AC into a switched circuit.


In every case where I've seen them causing problems, the house had central HVAC.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 18, 2021)

New question for you all:


Outlet box screws obstructing switch

The screws in the outlet box are protruding into the inside of the box. I have a big smart switch that won’t fit with those screws poking through.

As you can see from the photo below, I can’t get to the screws to just back them out(screws are on the top and bottom).

Can I just file them down? If I can file them, do I have to make sure I get all the filings out so they don’t cause a short or something similar?

Thoughts or suggestions? I really don’t want to replace the box.


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## hockeypuck (Jan 18, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> New question for you all:
> 
> 
> Outlet box screws obstructing switch
> ...


I had to remove metal boxes in my house and replace with remodel plastic boxes.  Need to take a metal blade to the nails holding the box to the stud, carefully pull it out and make sure the box you get will work with the existing hole or make it bigger.  Its a pain but needs to be done.


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## Highbeam (Jan 18, 2021)

Looks like those screws are not being used in your application and are just sitting there loose. If so, they are unnecessary and can be modified or removed. Can you unthread them farther? Pair of needle nose pliers to turn them out?


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## faultymechanics (Jan 19, 2021)

Highbeam said:


> Looks like those screws are not being used in your application and are just sitting there loose. If so, they are unnecessary and can be modified or removed. Can you unthread them farther? Pair of needle nose pliers to turn them out?



I'm going to try but because of the age I'm guessing they aren't going to turn out gently. That's why I was thinking of just filing them down. 

I wish there was a small set of pliers that could just cut the ends of them right off.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 19, 2021)

Just ordered these: Amazon product

Should make short work of those screws and can snip it off flush, or close enough that I can quickly use a file.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 19, 2021)

faultymechanics said:


> Just ordered these: Amazon product
> 
> Should make short work of those screws and can snip it off flush, or close enough that I can quickly use a file.



$55  ? Yikes!.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 19, 2021)

Seasoned Oak said:


> $55  ? Yikes!.



Yeah, not cheap but I have a decent amount of need for some good snips. I've gone through a few cheapies so it's time to upgrade.

I try to think of tools over $25 as an investment. Buy once, cry once


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## Eureka (Jan 19, 2021)

Knipex are top of the line, and worth every penny.


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## The.Devo (Jan 19, 2021)

Dremel with a cut off wheel.  Grind down the screw portion inside the box


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## ctyankee (Jan 19, 2021)

This outlet was in the house I bought a few years ago.  Most are in the floors.  This was the worst one.  I used it several times, I think it was arcing.


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## Eureka (Jan 20, 2021)

It looks like a cat was peeing on that for years while a welder was plugged into it.


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## faultymechanics (Jan 20, 2021)

ctyankee said:


> This outlet was in the house I bought a few years ago.  Most are in the floors.  This was the worst one.  I used it several times, I think it was arcing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Holy hell; I'm kind of happy that I don't have any in floor outlets, I'm sure this would be the result knowing the previous owners of my new house. 

That even looks like a 20a outlet. Could do some good damage plugging something large enough in that deathtrap.

I often wonder how Previous Owners survived for so long in these houses neglecting so much.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 20, 2021)

Eureka said:


> It looks like a cat was peeing on that for years while a welder was plugged into it.


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## fbelec (Jan 22, 2021)

fully agree with semipro. those back holes we in the trade call backstabs because they always come around to stab you in the back. every time i come into a house that has a few outlets not working and all the breakers are on that is the trouble. they still make them and as long as the big companies want them for a sales gimick they will be there. they are nothing but a fire waiting to happen. i even fired a guy for using them when i told him to not. i've gone into houses that the heat it was making transfered to the wall above it. as far as the outlets that the face comes off they still make them too. they are call Leviton brand. if i take one apart and look at the brand it's either a Leviton or 50 year old or older Hubble.

as far as that box goes you really are better off replacing the box with a plastic box. they have way more room in them. you not only can't get your device in the metal box but with those smart switches and receptacles and GFI outlets you have to worry about the wires that are in there. if you get them jammed in the box and it works it might fail later down the road cause a wire gets jammed and the insulation on the wire takes time to cut and short.


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## semipro (Jan 22, 2021)

fbelec said:


> as far as that box goes you really are better off replacing the box with a plastic box. they have way more room in them. you not only can't get your device in the metal box but with those smart switches and receptacles and GFI outlets you have to worry about the wires that are in there. if you get them jammed in the box and it works it might fail later down the road cause a wire gets jammed and the insulation on the wire takes time to cut and short.


This reminds me...
A lot of electricians wrap the device (outlet, switch, etc.) with electricians tape to cover the connector screws before reinstalling it.  I would think this to be much more important when using metal boxes.


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## zrock (Jan 22, 2021)

semipro said:


> This reminds me...
> A lot of electricians wrap the device (outlet, switch, etc.) with electricians tape to cover the connector screws before reinstalling it.  I would think this to be much more important when using metal boxes.


interesting as i have never seen that before... i can see the reasoning behind it but if thing's are done properly their is no need since boxes have more than enough room to install things


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## semipro (Jan 22, 2021)

zrock said:


> interesting as i have never seen that before... i can see the reasoning behind it but if thing's are done properly their is no need since boxes have more than enough room to install things


Yeah, they're wrapped as shown below.  That photos also gives you some idea of why it might be helpful since you can see bare ground conductors that might contact the receptacle conductor screws covered by the tape.  It's also good when you leave the wall covers off for wall finishing or painting as it could prevent shock. 
Seems like a good practice to me. 
The only downside I can imagine is possibly worsening heat buildup within the receptacle although I'd say you have bigger problems if that occurs.


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## fbelec (Jan 23, 2021)

yes a lot of guys do tape them. i don't i feel there is no reason to if it is done right. not to say i haven't done it, if i get there and find to many wires in the box or a typical in the kitchen with a 2.5 inch deep box and 12 gauge is not allowed in there in the first place and the ground wire is all over the box then i'll tape it. i do them live and have very little go wrong but when it does happen it a screw to the side of the box and the breaker blows doing it's job. if your receptacle or switch is hot then it's time for a change. even a 12 amp air conditioner the outlet shouldn't get hot. if the plug is warm keep a eye on it because it might need a receptacle change or the cord cap is on it's way out.


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## Highbeam (Jan 27, 2021)

fbelec said:


> yes a lot of guys do tape them. i don't i feel there is no reason to if it is done right. not to say i haven't done it, if i get there and find to many wires in the box or a typical in the kitchen with a 2.5 inch deep box and 12 gauge is not allowed in there in the first place and the ground wire is all over the box then i'll tape it. i do them live and have very little go wrong but when it does happen it a screw to the side of the box and the breaker blows doing it's job. if your receptacle or switch is hot then it's time for a change. even a 12 amp air conditioner the outlet shouldn't get hot. if the plug is warm keep a eye on it because it might need a receptacle change or the cord cap is on it's way out.



I’ve popped breakers when using my screw driver to straighten the outlet in a metal box. Bad habit. No tape for wire nuts or wrapping outlets for me.


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## bholler (Jan 31, 2021)

semipro said:


> This reminds me...
> A lot of electricians wrap the device (outlet, switch, etc.) with electricians tape to cover the connector screws before reinstalling it.  I would think this to be much more important when using metal boxes.


I do it every time in metal boxes.  Just a little extra insurance especially when doing them live.


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## faultymechanics (Feb 1, 2021)

A few of my outlets and light switches had electrical tape on them and I have to say for the most part, the tape held up.

Regardless I didn't tape any. I ensured I didn't have much, if any copper exposed after installing the wires and carefully slid each outlet back into place. I can't imagine with how tight I made the outlets, that I will have any issues with things moving around in there and potentially causing an issue.

I will say I didn't do any of them live. It was easy enough to shut the breaker and I wasn't comfortable enough doing it to do them live.


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## Dobish (Mar 5, 2021)

i tape most of my outlets, especially since my house is so weirdly wired. I have have found at least 4 outlets are were double fed, multiples that have the common hot, and some that even had the grounds hot. I always try and turn off the breakers, but I still use a tester.

Another thing that i have started doing is putting them in upside down. I do it for a few reasons, 1- that way I know I have grounded it and know what breaker it goes on and 2- it seems to me it is way easier to plug something in


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## Eureka (Mar 6, 2021)

Dobish said:


> Another thing that i have started doing is putting them in upside down. I do it for a few reasons, 1- that way I know I have grounded it and know what breaker it goes on and 2- it seems to me it is way easier to plug something in



This is actually commonplace on most of the commercial jobs I’ve seen around here, and always at hospitals.  Idea is that if something falls on a cord and it gets pulled out slightly that a finger or metallic object is less likely to arc across the hot and common prongs.  Same goes for safety while plugging items in.  I think for hospitals/clinics it is mandatory due to oxygen flammability concerns.
I heard about a residential inspector here who wasn’t familiar with the practice that initially failed a house because the electrician (usually a commercial guy) put them ground on top.


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## PA Mountain Man (Mar 6, 2021)

Eureka said:


> This is actually commonplace on most of the commercial jobs I’ve seen around here, and always at hospitals.  Idea is that if something falls on a cord and it gets pulled out slightly that a finger or metallic object is less likely to arc across the hot and common prongs.  Same goes for safety while plugging items in.  I think for hospitals/clinics it is mandatory due to oxygen flammability concerns.
> I heard about a residential inspector here who wasn’t familiar with the practice that initially failed a house because the electrician (usually a commercial guy) put them ground on top.


I may be mistaken, but I thought this has been in the electric code for quite some time.
But what do I know, only been doin this since '85.


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