# Value of 400 tree spruce grove near Chateaugay,  NY UPDATE



## leftyscott (Apr 24, 2010)

My father in law has 400 fifty year old spruce trees in upstate NY.  Some logger offered him $20/tree.  Is this a ripoff?  Anybody know what"s a fair price?


Logger by the name of Malcolm Frye worked out this deal with my father-in-law.  Frye harvested 200 trees, kept 100 for himself and piled 100 at the edge of the road for my father-in-law.  No monies exchanged hands.  Anyone heard of this guy or this kind of deal?

Father-in-law lives in Arkansas so there was no type of supervision going on.


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## smokinj (Apr 24, 2010)

I really dont see how the logging companys can pay much with the ammount of work it takes to get it to the mill.


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## Backwoods Savage (Apr 24, 2010)

I don't think that would be a rip-off. Just be prepared to see a mess when they are finished.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 24, 2010)

Have another logger bid the project.  

I spent yesterday surveying a mountain in upstate NY that had been logged a few times.  Going off the road the loggers put in was a royal PITA!  Add in the easy blowdown of the trees left and black flies and it was good ole time!

Matt


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## ihookem (Apr 25, 2010)

Seems like a real good price to me. That's 8k. You can get 400 trees in 2ac.


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## JustWood (Apr 25, 2010)

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/spr2009summer.pdf
Looks like the average price is around $80/MBF according to these reports. That price I'm guessing is to a Canadian mill.

Take the money and run. I've never paid more than $3/ton on a pulp bid for spruce. Pretty much a weed tree here. Hopefully that land will transition to more valueable hardwoods once the spruce is gone.


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## leftyscott (Apr 25, 2010)

leftyscott said:
			
		

> My father in law has 400 fifty year old spruce trees in upstate NY.  Some logger offered him $20/tree.  Is this a ripoff?  Anybody know what"s a fair price?



I'm so stupid.......
Father-in-law is 84 years old and kept saying $800 for 400 trees is way low.  His math was wrong and I didn't catch it.
$20x400= $8000.  That seems like a very fair price considering the old man only paid $12K for the property 25 years ago.  Already made back the $12K when the house on the property burned down several years ago.


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## Backwoods Savage (Apr 25, 2010)

You might say property prices have gone up a bit in 25 years. Even more, I missed out on a 40 for $1,800 about 50 years ago. Sure wish I'd bought it but learned of it too late and someone had already grabbed it. It is work considerably more now.


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## Danno77 (Apr 25, 2010)

after seeing what they did on our Timber I'll never have any loggers set foot there again unless I want the whole dang thing cleared off. Actually, probably not even then.


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## wolfram (Apr 26, 2010)

Please listen to Matt's advice.  Get another bid or two or involve a forester.  The DEC has names to call.  Get references from past customers.  And have the trees marked beforehand and have a written contract for the job.  A lot of things can go wrong.

For example, the logger says $8,000 for only the fifty year old spruce.  If true, those are big multi-sawlog trees at even $100 per thousand.  Somewhere in the 20"-24" diameter class at breast height.  They'll likely need to be bigger than that so he can pay for the expenses associated with your specific job.   Not to say that the man is dishonest, but what if his guys also cut the hardwood veneer logs in the spruce stand by accident?

If the stand is worth selling, get more bids and a contract and then you will know the market value of the stand and you'll know what will be left in the stand.  Sometimes $8,000 turns into $40,000.  Just my opinion.


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## Wood Duck (Apr 26, 2010)

I'd think twice about the damage that will occur when the trees are logged. $8,000 sounds great, but you may end up with trashed woods, piles of slash, ruts, mud, ruined roads, damage to other trees, etc. I'd make sure how much the deal is for, and I'd look for a logger who has some experience NOT destroying the woods while removing some lumber.


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## kenny chaos (Apr 26, 2010)

I was cutting vines in a stand of pines Saturday with my son and told him I wish I could find someone to pay me $20 apiece for them.
Of course, mine are only 30 years old.


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## wolfram (Apr 26, 2010)

I agree.  Something about 400, 50-year-old spruce and $8,000 does not smell right.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 26, 2010)

Get a second or third quote from another logger . . . and check references and with any state regulatory agencies (around here the Forest Rangers are responsible for going after "bad" loggers -- i.e. loggers who cut more than they are supposed to, cut on an abutter's property, do not pay the landowner the full amount owed to them, etc.)


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## leaddog (Apr 26, 2010)

If you don't know hire a forrester. their usual fee is 10% for that they will mark and measure the trees to be cut, send out for bids, deliver to you the signed contract and money up front, and check up and make sure the terms have been delt with. Usual contract spells out trees to cut, when cut ,when removed, condition the woods is left in, payment and terms of any damage and a host of other things most people don't have nay idea of. 
Plus you will probably make money over his fee because he will know what co.s need what logs and will make sure they get to bid. Someone that makes skids won't pay more for veneer. He will also know what the market looks like and may advice to wait or hurry up. 
Best money you will ever spend.
leaddog


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## dave360up (Apr 26, 2010)

I second what leaddog said about hiring a forester.  And contract and the money upfront mean that you hold the cards.  Otherwise, once the trees are cut and gone, you hold none.
Here is a link to the NY DEC stumpage reports for some price ranges:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/5259.html


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## JustWood (Apr 27, 2010)

wolfram said:
			
		

> I agree.  Something about 400, 50-year-old spruce and $8,000 does not smell right.




$8,000 / $80MBF = 100MBF

100MBF / 400 trees = 250BF per tree. Sounds about right for 50 year old spruce. 

I just love keyboard foresters! ;-P


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## kenny chaos (Apr 27, 2010)

leftyscott said:
			
		

> My father in law has 400 fifty year old spruce trees in upstate NY.  Some logger offered him $20/tree.  Is this a ripoff?  Anybody know what"s a fair price?






Where in Upstate?  I may want to talk to this logger.


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## wolfram (Apr 27, 2010)

JoeD, 250 board feet, on the scale, per tree in a 50 year old spruce stand of 400 trees?  I am certainly not a forester, but that must be a fantastic site.

If you are correct in your estimate of volume, International or Doyle rule would have them at 18" dbh absolute minimum (20"-24" diameter more likely according to the person doing the estimating).

US Forest Service says:  Under favorable conditions, red (eastern) spruce may reach an average d.b.h. of 4" and height of 23 ft in 20 years, and be over 9" d.b.h. and 62 ft tall in 60 years.  Here is the link:

Eastern Spruce from the US Forest Service

US Forest Service says approximately 9" diameter at breast height in 60 years under favorable conditions.  I am not a forester, but I think that tree would only hold pulpwood or chips.  No real sawlogs and very few board feet per tree.  Value would be far less than $80/1000.   Kind of like your post up above at a few dollars per ton.

I am curious.  Be great if the OP had a picture of the stand or tell us something about the average tree.....Are they 9" diameter or 20" diameter?


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## leftyscott (Apr 27, 2010)

Another update...........

Just found out that 100 trees have been harvested and dragged to the side of the road.  Father in law lives here in Arkansas also so details are sketchy.  He plans on going up there later this spring and will try selling the 100 trees for someone who would want to biuld a log cabin.  He has no prospects at this time.  He's not the most practical person in the world.

The property is near Chateugay NY.   I'll try to get more details about location (will try to google map).  Will also find out who did the cutting.

Be great if someone on the board, lives close-by and can get a visual on the situation.


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## daveswoodhauler (Apr 27, 2010)

I think there are a few folks on the board from that area....maybe amend the title of the thread to include the town name in NY, as some members might be more inclined to read the thread if its somewhat local.
Good luck


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## kenny chaos (Apr 27, 2010)

leftyscott said:
			
		

> Another update...........
> 
> 
> Be great if someone on the board, lives close-by and can get a visual on the situation.







I looked it up and I'm almost three hours away.


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## leftyscott (May 3, 2010)

Logger by the name of Malcolm Frye worked out this deal with my father-in-law.  Frye harvested 200 trees, kept 100 for himself and piled 100 at the edge of the road for my father-in-law.  No monies exchanged hands.  Anyone heard of this guy or this kind of deal?

Father-in-law lives in Arkansas so there was no type of supervision going on


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## kenny chaos (May 3, 2010)

leftyscott said:
			
		

> Logger by the name of Malcolm Frye worked out this deal with my father-in-law.  Frye harvested 200 trees, kept 100 for himself and piled 100 at the edge of the road for my father-in-law.  No monies exchanged hands.  Anyone heard of this guy or this kind of deal?
> 
> Father-in-law lives in Arkansas so there was no type of supervision going on






It's already been done.
If the replys are true to form, some you'll like and some you won't.
If that was the deal then that was the deal.
I'd leave it alone.


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## zzr7ky (May 3, 2010)

I've been part of deals like this with relatives who own land.  We split 50/50 with a band-mill operator after helping substancially with the harvesting and stacking.


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## Danno77 (May 3, 2010)

If he wanted 100 trees by the road then I'd say it was a good deal. If he didn't want 100 trees by the roadside, then i'd say he got screwed. easy as that.


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## JustWood (May 4, 2010)

Eye thought it was 400 trees x $20=$8000!!


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## leftyscott (May 4, 2010)

curiousLEE said:
			
		

> Eye thought it was 400 trees x $20=$8000!!



That's where it started , I think......  Where it ended was logger gets 100, f-i-l gets 100 and no $ exchanged. 

Old man now thinks it may have been $20/ton instead of $20/tree  He is 84 years and 3/4 deaf.


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## Sharp (Mar 11, 2015)

leftyscott said:


> My father in law has 400 fifty year old spruce trees in upstate NY.  Some logger offered him $20/tree.  Is this a ripoff?  Anybody know what"s a fair price?
> 
> 
> Logger by the name of Malcolm Frye worked out this deal with my father-in-law.  Frye harvested 200 trees, kept 100 for himself and piled 100 at the edge of the road for my father-in-law.  No monies exchanged hands.  Anyone heard of this guy or this kind of deal?
> ...


Hi According to your post/s you say your father in law received 8,000.00 but then also said no money was exchanged that it was a trade off deal.  So to be clear here, if your father in law had 400 trees and only half of them were harvested even at the amount you said he would have been paid (20 dollars a tree) that would have only been 200@20 which equals 4,000.00.  Now aside from that your logger harvested 200 trees, kept 100 and gave your father in law 100.......... that is 50/50 and equals 2000 dollars according to the deal you said he made with your father in law. If that was the case why did the logger go and tell him Ill give you 20 dollars a tree? Why not do what many loggers do and say I will give you 50 percent of what I make.  It seems this logger backed out of the deal probably due to a squabble over money. How do you know what he piled along the road? He could have taken the best of the best and left your FIL the shyte stuff. Having been in and apart of logging my whole life, I will say this is a bad deal from the start. Not because the money was bad, but because none of this seems right. No contract, no references, no agreement other then money at all? Was your FIL so desperate for money he couldnt be bothered to check this guy out, or have a neighbor or friend oversee the operation? I mean seems like he was sold magic beans, and maybe he deserved it. Why didnt he say to the logger okay I will take a check for 8000 and you can have the logs? Either way what has probably happened here is the logger pulled off, left shyte wood for your FIL (which with the bark left on has a shelf life) and since there was no contract or witnesses its the loggers word against your FIL. 

To address messes left by loggers.............. as a home owner it is  your responsibility to work out the details of how well you want something cleaned up.  In my experience the color of money is all homeowners care about until it runs out, then its the logger made a mess etc.

Dont expect any logger to chip brush, or smash brush down to less the 12 inches, unless you expect to have it taken out of your end. It cost in time, fuel and equipment no one is going to build roads, cut, skid, truck and then out of the kindness of their hearts remove your brush..... thats right "your" brush. They paid you for the logs and sometimes firewood only.  That said most loggers will cut down the top so some things to discuss or think about when selling the logs is how low you want the brush cut down to. 2-3 feet isnt bad on the logger and with in a few years will be almost half that, so doesnt look like a disaster area. Make sure the logging roads have swales to divert water and eliminate erosion, and no brush in the road.   The next and most important thing is never trust any logger ever. Hire an independent forester to 1) mark what trees should be taken, 2) mark out areas for roads to cause the least amount of damage, 3) get you a ball park on stompage, and 4) oversee the work being done.  It will cost you money for the forester but well worth peace of mind...........or you can be like nearly every other homeowner see dollar signs and then bish after the money runs out.


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2015)

Good advice, thanks. With that final comment I'm closing up this thread, it's 4 yrs old.


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