# Fire Chief FC1500 install



## Mrpelletburner

HY-C made things good and agreed to ship the FC1500. The differences between the two stoves is clear as soon as you remove the packing.

Will be providing a detailed report, just wanted to kick things off with the trip from the garage to the basement. Took about 3hrs, still not connected, but did do the first burn in the driveway last weekend.


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## brenndatomu

Well, I'll be a monkeys uncle! I would have lost that bet...I really thought they were gonna string you along until you just went away! 
So what differences are there in the firebox/intake track?


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## maple1

Wow. Good luck - you deserve some. Really looking forward to reading about how this goes.


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## JRHAWK9

That's great!  Hopefully your new one doesn't keep us all entertained on here all winter like the last one did!


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## Mrpelletburner

Not overly excited about it, but I will end up with a 48” run with a 8” rise. The other option would be to rotate the stove and have three 90’s, which is also not a great option.

My concern is with the longer run my stack temps will drop faster allowing condensation to build up inside stainless steel liner.

Am I over thinking things?


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## Mrpelletburner

......


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## JRHAWK9

Why can't you remove the blocks it's sitting on in order to drop it down to increase the slope on your stove pipe?


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## Mrpelletburner

Basement floods  Even my wood is 8” off the floor. 

Adding a 2nd sump pump is on the list.


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## maple1

Is there a reason you can't move it closer to the chimney? I guess it would be 6 of one and 6 of another w.r.t. duct flows too.

I don't think the overall length of stove pipe is a concern here. Just should be uphill as much as possible with few bends as possible. I think mine is at least that long, overall. I have a good tall strong drafting chimney though.

Does the water really get that high? Looks like it would be kinda deep. Even a few inches lower would help some.


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## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> Is there a reason you can't move it closer to the chimney? I guess it would be 6 of one and 6 of another w.r.t. duct flows too.



I thought about this last night. One issue with the current location facing is on the back of the stove there is a box that houses the draft blower, this prevents the stove pipe to angle towards the wall sooner.

I could also rotate the stove clockwise and over closer to the chimney (this is how I first had the stove setup), however the blower intake would be ~ 12” from the back wall. Was told by HC-Y that this would lower the temperature of the air being drawn in and heated up. 





maple1 said:


> Does the water really get that high? Looks like it would be kinda deep. Even a few inches lower would help some.



We live in a water shed area and to add on to the pain, the neighbor in the spring filled in their in ground pool and diverted the water towards our house (nothing we can do about it according to the town). Within 1 ½ hrs it is possible that we could have 8-9” of water in the basement, if the sump pump goes out (why we are adding a 2nd). Right now the stove is 8” off the floor, I could use a 4” block, but would run the risk of water reaching the bottom of the stove.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Not overly excited about it, but I will end up with a 48” run with a 8” rise. The other option would be to rotate the stove and have three 90’s, which is also not a great option.


You should be fine...2" rise per ft of run is way over the minimum of 1/4" rise per ft run. 
I have a 4' section that is only 1" rise per ft...no issues with it...but everything else is right though too...insulated liner in a tall chimney, etc...


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## Mrpelletburner

Ok, proceed on with the current setup. Connected up the stove pipe, blower fan, and ducts out of the top. Added  5 pcs of kindling to the firebox,  a ball of crumpled up a ball of paper and fired it up.

First impressions, this stove is NIGHT and DAY different. Not only did it fire up right away, but the amount of smoke exiting the chimney disappeared in maybe 5 mins. Once the kindling was nice and charred, I added 3 small splits (baby steps) and closed the door. Maybe after 15-20 minutes, the blower turned on. Again I watched the smoke exiting the chimney and again after ~5 minutes, the smoke was gone. With my temperature gun, I took some surface readings of the stove pipe over the exposed pipe (exit of the stove to the flue) and a consistent 380 degrees. The FC1000 would read 380 degrees exiting the stove and drop 50 degrees before it hit the flue.

As I am in sort of a "test mode", I added 3 larger splits with the draft blower off, as I wanted to see what would happen. Again, smoke exiting the chimney for ~5 mins then clear. This never happened with the FC 1000.

Now... draft blower has been off for over an hour now and the stove is running at a steady temperature, however, the blower has not turned off (Yes, I did check the switch to make sure it is set to auto mode)????? When I fired the stove up in the driveway the blower would trigger on and off, so I know it does turn off.

Does this mean the stove is too big for my 2,200 sq ft house? It is currently 40 degrees outside, so not all that cold.


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## laynes69

Its 40 degrees out....if I bake something at 40 degrees out I can overheat the house. Let it hit zero outside and it's a different story. I dunno, 3 splits and zero smoke without the use of a draft blower and constant blower operation I wouldn't complain. You'll need the heat when the weather turns cold. Worse case, you build a fire and let it die down before reloading.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Ok, proceed on with the current setup. Connected up the stove pipe, blower fan, and ducts out of the top. Added  5 pcs of kindling to the firebox,  a ball of crumpled up a ball of paper and fired it up.
> 
> First impressions, this stove is NIGHT and DAY different. Not only did it fire up right away, but the amount of smoke exiting the chimney disappeared in maybe 5 mins. Once the kindling was nice and charred, I added 3 small splits (baby steps) and closed the door. Maybe after 15-20 minutes, the blower turned on. Again I watched the smoke exiting the chimney and again after ~5 minutes, the smoke was gone. With my temperature gun, I took some surface readings of the stove pipe over the exposed pipe (exit of the stove to the flue) and a consistent 380 degrees. The FC1000 would read 380 degrees exiting the stove and drop 50 degrees before it hit the flue.
> 
> As I am in sort of a "test mode", I added 3 larger splits with the draft blower off, as I wanted to see what would happen. Again, smoke exiting the chimney for ~5 mins then clear. This never happened with the FC 1000.
> 
> Now... draft blower has been off for over an hour now and the stove is running at a steady temperature, however, the blower has not turned off (Yes, I did check the switch to make sure it is set to auto mode)????? When I fired the stove up in the driveway the blower would trigger on and off, so I know it does turn off.
> 
> Does this mean the stove is too big for my 2,200 sq ft house? It is currently 40 degrees outside, so not all that cold.


Your gonna need to specify when you are talking about the draft blower and when you mean the house (duct) blower...it gets confusing to try to follow otherwise.
That said, I _think_ you are saying the duct blower is running non stop...that's a good thing...one that cycles all the time SUCKS!
From a cold start the blower should come on once the furnace warms up...it may cycle a time or two until things good rolling good...but a well designed furnace with a proper install will have a blower running non stop almost to the end of the fire...then you get a bit of cycling at the end of the fire usually too.
The reason it shut off when you tested it outside was because 1. you probably had a short piece of pipe on it for a chimney...so bad draft, and the fire wasn't burning "normally" (not as hot) 2. you had no duct work hooked up so the blower was moving maximum volume, that cooled things down quickly kicking the fan switch off.
This model very well may be "too big" for your house, but that is better than "too small". If a small one can't keep up on a cold night, it can't keep up, not much you can do about it. But when you have a wood burner that is "too big" you can build small fires in it. Also, load lower BTU wood when its not as cold...and load less often. I load once per day if it is warmer out, twice per day as it cools down, and 3 times per day once winter sets in proper like....varying the load sizes each time based on current house and outside temp, along with the forecasted temp.
Sure hope this one works out better for you, seems like you are off to a much better start!

So did they give this one to you even up, or had to pay the difference? Are that taking your old one back to test on?


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## Mrpelletburner

Inside the firebox before firing it up.


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## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Your gonna need to specify when you are talking about the draft blower and when you mean the house (duct) blower...it gets confusing to try to follow otherwise.



Will do!





brenndatomu said:


> That said, I _think_ you are saying the duct blower is running non stop...that's a good thing...one that cycles all the time SUCKS!
> From a cold start the blower should come on once the furnace warms up...it may cycle a time or two until things good rolling good...but a well designed furnace with a proper install will have a blower running non stop almost to the end of the fire...


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Now knowing that the FC1000 draft blower was not supposed to cycle as often as it did, helps understand why I was having issues


How often the draft blower cycles is based on what the houses thermostat calls for, no?
What controls the secondary air flapper, computer?


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## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> How often the draft blower cycles is based on what the houses thermostat calls for, no?
> What controls the secondary air flapper, computer?



The house thermostat will turn on/off the draft blower however even with the draft blower off, the duct blower will run until the fire box has cooled off.


The secondary air flap is manually controlled.

Not the best photo, but this is how it is controlled.


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## brenndatomu

So you probably have a few fires under your belt by now...have you had to use your "windowstats" yet? 
Whatdya think?


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## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> So you probably have a few fires under your belt by now...have you had to use your "windowstats" yet?
> Whatdya think?



Cold starts are like throwing a match on a hay pile.

After about 20 minutes, there is a nice bed of coals, add a coupe splits and the house goes from 67 to 85 fast.

Last night it was ~29 degrees out, added 8 medium splits (16” logs) around 11pm and around 1am the house reached 87 degrees. Also, by 3:30am was just a warm bed of coals. At 7:30 am there was only 1 small amber left.

So seems to heat fast and burn faster.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> around 1am the house reached 87 degrees.


87*!? Holy moly...you did have the windows open, didn't you?! 
Heck, its probably still 78 in there! 
Good to hear this one is working out better for ya!


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## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Cold starts are like throwing a match on a hay pile.
> 
> After about 20 minutes, there is a nice bed of coals, add a coupe splits and the house goes from 67 to 85 fast.
> 
> Last night it was ~29 degrees out, added 8 medium splits (16” logs) around 11pm and around 1am the house reached 87 degrees. Also, by 3:30am was just a warm bed of coals. At 7:30 am there was only 1 small amber left.
> 
> So seems to heat fast and burn faster.





Eight medium splits doesn't tell us much, but to me it sounds like it's lacking control....?  4.5 hours and it burned through, what seems like, a fair amount of wood.


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## maple1

And put out what seems like a lot of heat all at once


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## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Eight medium splits doesn't tell us much, but to me it sounds like it's lacking control....?  4.5 hours and it burned through, what seems like, a fair amount of wood.





maple1 said:


> And put out what seems like a lot of heat all at once


I'm sure there will be a learning curve here...after all, he used to putting in 8 medium splits and getting no heat, just smoke!


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## Medic21

Does this have a 6 inch glue and how high up is it?


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## TCaldwell

I don’t know about this furnace but if the secondary air inlet is open all the time that’s a problem


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## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> Eight medium splits doesn't tell us much, but to me it sounds like it's lacking control....?  4.5 hours and it burned through, what seems like, a fair amount of wood.



8 splits half way filled the box. This video is just to illustrate the size of the box.


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## brenndatomu

TCaldwell said:


> I don’t know about this furnace but if the secondary air inlet is open all the time that’s a problem


Whys that? All of them I've ever seen are that way...most stoves too. And most are not adjustable...wide open only.


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## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Does this have a 6 inch glue and how high up is it?



Yes, 6” flue and ~33’ tall


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## Mrpelletburner

TCaldwell said:


> I don’t know about this furnace but if the secondary air inlet is open all the time that’s a problem



The secondary air flap opening increases as the stove gets hotter.


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## Mrpelletburner

This much wood, just brought the temperature of the first floor from 71 to 76 in about 20mins (our house is about 2,200 sqft) with the outside temp ~27. 

Going to need to buy more shorts and tee shirts for the winter.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> This much wood, just brought the temperature of the first floor from 71 to 76 in about 20mins (our house is about 2,200 sqft) with the outside temp ~27.
> 
> Going to need to buy more shorts and tee shirts for the winter.


A wood burners mantra: If the wife has too many clothes on, throw another log on the fire!


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## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes, 6” flue and ~33’ tall



Get your chimney draft dialed? (I think I remember you having a manometer?)


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## JRHAWK9

That's nuts.  Hopefully you will be able to dial that thing back a bit, otherwise you may be making numerous small fires throughout the day.     Something just seems odd, unless that thing is WAY oversized for your house.  2,200SF is not exactly small though.


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## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Get your chimney draft dialed? (I think I remember you having a manometer?)


Probably gonna need to put that baro back in too...that's a lot of chimney height! Thing would probably suck up nearby cats! 
My chimney is only 27' and when it gets cold out the baro is hanging wide open trying to keep things under control!


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## maple1

brenndatomu said:


> Probably gonna need to put that baro back in too...that's a lot of chimney height! Thing would probably suck up nearby cats!
> My chimney is only 27' and when it gets cold out the baro is hanging wide open trying to keep things under control!



Yup, kinda what I was getting at. Along with sucking up cats it would also over-turbo the fire.

So to speak...


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## Mrpelletburner

I understand the direction everyone is suggesting, just giving another example.

Last night I re-loaded the stove at 9:36pm, temperature outside was 24 degrees.











This is my thermostat at 11:14pm

87 degrees 





Stove already passed it’s hottest point.






At 11:42 pm this what the inside of the fire box looked like.






And the secondary air inlet flap






When I got up today ~7:33am it was 28 degrees outside and the house was 69 degrees.

Firebox was cold and done.







So it appears, per everyone’s suggestion that the stack is pulling to strong of a draft and I need to added a bio damp to slowdown the burn rate.


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## Mrpelletburner

Using my ecobee thermostat I am able to capture the temperature throughout


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## JRHAWK9

Don't think a -BIO DAMPER- will help you.    A barometric damper should have been installed from the get go though.  Seems like you have a mini-nuclear reactor going on right now with how it's currently operating.  It blows it's load immediately and leaves you wanting more.     Hopefully pulling your draft down will help you gain some control of that thing.  I guess you could just keep feeding it and see if you can reach 100° inside temps!


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## woodey

woodey said:


> So it appears, per everyone’s suggestion that the stack is pulling to strong of a draft and I need to added a bio damp to slowdown the burn rate.


[/QUOTE]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   If you do install the Baro. damper I believe the closer to the chimney the better.


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## maple1

So am I right in remembering you have a manometer? I don't really want to go in that other thread again to find out.


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## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> So am I right in remembering you have a manometer? I don't really want to go in that other thread again to find out.



Yes...  Trying to remember when and where to take the measurement.

I did order a barometric damper, should be in tomorrow. Waiting for HY-C to respond regarding adding one.


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## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes...  Trying to remember when and where to take the measurement.
> 
> I did order a barometric damper, should be in tomorrow. Waiting for HY-C to respond regarding adding one.



Mine is hooked up all the time. Just make sure it is between the furnace & the baro. I think the numbers to pay attention to are when it is burning.


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## TCaldwell

What Controlls the draft fan, is there a high limit that’s adjustable? Is it the draft fan that’s not shutting off, or even when it’s off it’s just drafting too much or the p/s air dampers mis adjusted to allow to much natural draft?


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## brenndatomu

87* in the house...whooo doggies! You keep that up your wife is gonna open up a winter escape/tropical resort! 
Yeah get a draft reading and get that baro installed, I think that is gonna go a long ways toward knocking the peak off your burn and allow it to stretch out a lil longer too.
As far as the draft reading, take it near the furnace, but before the baro...and I'd just stick the baro in that 4' section of stove pipe somewheres.


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## Mrpelletburner

Measured -0.13


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## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Measured -0.13





Pull that down to the -0.06" area.  Unless Hy-C recommends differently.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Measured -0.13


Yeahaw!
That's while you are burning, right?
IIRC HY-C specs -0.08 as the limit? I'm pretty sure that's what I remember, because even that's high compared to many wood fired heaters. -0.06" is more common, heck, my old Yukon the high limit is -0.03"!
So basically you are double where is should be ideally...yeah, a baro is gonna make a little difference here! 
Hopefully you ordered a Fields...those Vogelzang baros are a real POS


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## JRHAWK9

IIRC, he had Fields last winter for a short time until the FC1000 decided it didn't like it and blew it off/up...??


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## Mrpelletburner

TCaldwell said:


> What Controlls the draft fan, is there a high limit that’s adjustable? Is it the draft fan that’s not shutting off, or even when it’s off it’s just drafting too much or the p/s air dampers mis adjusted to allow to much natural draft?



The wall thermostat controls the draft blower when the temp drops to 71 degrees. At 71 degrees the stove is down to a couple small ambers. Since it does not take much for the fire to catch, the draft blower turns off pretty quick.


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## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Hopefully you ordered a Fields...those Vogelzang baros are a real POS



I did order a Fields, hopefully this time it doesn’t get blown across the room again.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I did order a Fields, hopefully this time it doesn’t get blown across the room again.


OK, so you did have one before...I thought you did. It musta got a lil deformed during "the incident", huh?


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## Mrpelletburner

Let's revisit "the incident"


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Let's revisit "the incident"



I had an old work car that used to do that once in a while...blew the muffler wide open finally!


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## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Let's revisit "the incident"




This forum needs a Hall of Fame for things exactly like this. That was/is epic.


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## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> This forum needs a Hall of Fame for things exactly like this. That was/is epic.


Or hall of shame for HY-C and their FC1000...


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## Mrpelletburner

Just a quick update... 

The stove has been firing great, quick to start and keeps the house REALLY warm (stove should have been delivered with a palm tree).  The other day I had talked to the folks at HY-C and they provided some great suggestions regarding how I load the stove and when to use/not use the draft blower (a.k.a. learning the stove). They also mentioned NOT to install a barometric damper as the stove was designed to operate without one and was reminded that each stove is designed differently. While I am still trying to figure out how/when to reload and how much to reload.

So far this stove has not disappointed.


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## maple1

So if no baro, what do they recommend to do if you have too much chimney draft? Surely they wouldn't want it operated in an overdraft situation?

(Getting some deja vu here....)


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## Mrpelletburner

Don’t think I have enough background on the topic of stove design, however they referred to their stoves as a “forced draft” stove and the stove was designed to account for high drafts. It was mentioned that adding a baro results to the stove not pulling a proper draft during the burn cycle. Also, they are concerned I might end up with another explosion of unburned gases.

All fair points.

They mentioned the key to troubleshooting and wood stove is to limit changing to many variables at once.

Right now it was suggested to only use the draft blower for cold starts and load smaller splits on the hot ambers and larger splits on top. Also play with loading different amounts of wood. This is a tough one for the overnight burns, which first floor temps reach ~88 degrees when the stove hits peak heat output.

On the flip side, I have not had any back puffing and the section above the fire box (area the stove pipe is connected to) has just a small amount of fine ash. This tells me I am not longer having a creosote issue (fyi same wood, different stove).


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## maple1

Hate to be the one to get into this stuff again - but that is BS.

The manual clearly states in black & white that the chimney draft should be maximum 0.08". Which means the stove is not designed to account for high drafts. And if it is more than that, it can be adjusted with the installation of a flue damper. Which a barometric damper is a type of. It doesn't say don't use a baro, but does say a manual damper is recommended. (IMO an automatic baro is way better than a manual one - might just be me). It does warn against a heat reclaimer, so tip of the hat at that.

Definitely deja vu - I'll just stop there. Good to hear it is working better than the old one though.


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## laynes69

All I can say is they better replace the furnace when it's damaged from being overfired. The draft is nothing now, wait until the weather is in the single digits or below zero (if your climate gets that cold). Honestly it's an unbelievable reply.


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## JRHAWK9




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## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> So if no baro, what do they recommend to do if you have too much chimney draft? Surely they wouldn't want it operated in an overdraft situation?
> 
> (Getting some deja vu here....)


Exactly!


Mrpelletburner said:


> Don’t think I have enough background on the topic of stove design, however they referred to their stoves as a “forced draft” stove and the stove was designed to account for high drafts. It was mentioned that adding a baro results to the stove not pulling a proper draft during the burn cycle. Also, they are concerned I might end up with another explosion of unburned gases.
> 
> All fair points.
> 
> They mentioned the key to troubleshooting and wood stove is to limit changing to many variables at once.
> 
> Right now it was suggested to only use the draft blower for cold starts and load smaller splits on the hot ambers and larger splits on top. Also play with loading different amounts of wood. This is a tough one for the overnight burns, which first floor temps reach ~88 degrees when the stove hits peak heat output.
> 
> On the flip side, I have not had any back puffing and the section above the fire box (area the stove pipe is connected to) has just a small amount of fine ash. This tells me I am not longer having a creosol issue (fyi same wood, different stove).


Oh these guys are killing me!! If there's even one person there with a college degree, it came from a Cracker Jack box!
And if these same individuals you are talking to had anything to do with the design of the FC1000, that explains a lot!
This is a "forced draft" stove, yes. But that means nothing more than it has a combustion blower instead of relying totally on the chimney to pull the air into the firebox...and that it. The draft the you are trying to control is the chimney draft...and this is the true engine of the stove...without it, you'd have no fire as soon as you turn off your combustion blower.
The barometric damper is there to control the chimneys draft, of which you have a ton of due to the height of the chimney.
It is not gonna make the chimneys draft any lower than it would be otherwise, except when the draft level is higher that what the baro is set at...which apparently HY-C wants 0.08" WC (which still sounds too high to me) when the draft exceeds -0.08", then the baro opens up just enough to keep it there...if it goes down, the baro closes. Basically it just knocks the peaks off.

One of the reasons you are overheating the house is because once the stove gets up to full operating temp, that raises the chimney temp, which raises the draft, which pulls more air into the firebox, which raises the temp, which puts more heat up the chimney, which...on and on. Until you run out of wood in 2 hours. If you control the chimney draft maybe the wood can last 4...or even 6 hours. As was mentioned above, once it gets real cold, you will over fire that firebox without a baro on the stack...you haven't seen anything yet.
Having a combustion blower and a baro are not mutually exclusive...many wood furnaces do it...my old Yukon Big Jack was that way...per the factory.
And I haven't read it (yet) but if the manual does say to have a manual damper but not a baro...then they are even bigger idiots than I thought. A manual damper on a furnace with a combustion blower that can be started by the houses thermostat is a death trap.
What happens when you have your manual damper closed to control the draft, and the house cools off during the night kicking the combustion blower on...where is all the extra air going? It can't get up the stack, you have it pinched off...so its gonna blow smoke and CO out every seam just like your 1000 did when it backfired.
When the blower kicks on with a baro on the stack (instead of a manual damper) the baro just closes...easy peasey.
But bottom line, don't send that baro back...you gonna need it soon.
My forehead is gonna be purple if I can't stop slapping it every time I read a reply from these HY-C guys!


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## maple1

https://www.woodlanddirect.com/Fire-Chief-FC1500-Indoor-Wood-Burning-Furnace

Anybody know exactly what that $51 draft damper accessory is? 'Draft' I would equate with combustion air or chimney draft. But is it rather a duct damper? If so, why do they call it 'draft' damper? Haven't seen anything like that before, but I also don't do ducts.


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## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> https://www.woodlanddirect.com/Fire-Chief-FC1500-Indoor-Wood-Burning-Furnace
> 
> Anybody know exactly what that $51 draft damper accessory is? 'Draft' I would equate with combustion air or chimney draft. But is it rather a duct damper? If so, why do they call it 'draft' damper? Haven't seen anything like that before, but I also don't do ducts.


Don't see a price anywhere...but the only dampers I can find are backdraft dampers for the ductwork...


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## brenndatomu

Here's a snip of the manual...its says anything over -0.08" WC draft must be controlled...and they recommend a manual damper...morons!


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## maple1

Did you see where it also mentioned fire hazards several times - the first hazard listed being draft over 0.08"?


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## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Did you see where it also mentioned fire hazards several times - the first hazard listed being draft over 0.08"?


Yes, and that's a maximum of -0.08", not minimum! Those guys need to read their own manual!
If it were mine, I'd have that Fields baro on there and set to -0.06" so fast it'd make your head spin.


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## brenndatomu

More from the FC1500 manual...draft to be -0.04 to -0.08" WC





Over firing defined as burning through a load in 2 to 4 hours...didn't you say the "heat" was declining after 2 hours @Mrpelletburner ?


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## Mrpelletburner

I know, crazy right.


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## JRHAWK9

I'm guessing it's safe to assume the home owner didn't read the manual either.


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## ssmall07

I got the same answer from HY-C about not having a damper for the chimney.......the gentleman I talked to said they are in the process of revising the manual


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## brenndatomu

ssmall07 said:


> I got the same answer from HY-C about not having a damper for the chimney.......the gentleman I talked to said they are in the process of revising the manual


To say what?


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## ssmall07

brenndatomu said:


> To say what?


That they dont recommend a damper in the chimney the furnace like my sf1000 has a 3/8 in opening on the slide on combustion blower so the furnace can only pull that much air in.  They said the flue dampers were causing more problems than good


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> I'm guessing it's safe to assume the home owner didn't read the manual either.



I have read the manual. With that said, the original release of the manual last season was a copy and paste from their previous stoves, which operate different from the newer style stoves. 

The last time I added the baro damper, things did not end well. Therefore I am moving forward with caution and trying to operate the stove per their feedback even if it goes against all logic. The last thing I need is to go off on my own and have them tell me good luck, we tried to help. I also don’t want to tell anyone making good suggestions that they are wrong either as everyone here is only trying to help and learn so they can continue to help.

So far this week, following their suggestions...

- Distribution blower kicks on shortly after initial load or reload and stays on until all fuel has been burned and the stove is down to hot ambers. When the stove is down to ambers, the distribution blower cycles.

- Loading the fire box for the over night at 11pm results to the first floor hitting high 80’s at around 2 am and the fire box down to very small ambers at 7am. At 7am the first floor will be 71 degrees. Only complaint here is I should be getting a longer burn time and perhaps not so much of a spike of heat.

- No matter if it is 20 or 30 outside, the first floor quickly rises to mid 80’s with ease and the second floor maintains ~71 degrees, because the first floor is so hot. This happens even if I reduce the amount of fuel per load. Yes, shorts and a tee shirt is a must.

- Stove pipe looks like it is burning off the build up of creosol. Here is a photo of the inside of the stove pipe yesterday. I am assuming the flake off is from the previous state of the build up of creosol?

Assuming this is starting to look like cleaner burns?


----------



## maple1

ssmall07 said:


> That they dont recommend a damper in the chimney the furnace like my sf1000 has a 3/8 in opening on the slide on combustion blower so the furnace can only pull that much air in.  They said the flue dampers were causing more problems than good



Yes, but. If that 3/8 hole means it is supplying proper amount of air when the chimney is pulling too much draft, it also means it would be supplying not enough air when the chimney is pulling the right amount of draft.

These guys are way off base in their thinking. There is a reason fossil burners spec chimney dampers tuned to present certain chimney draft - efficient safe combustion in all conditions with no manual intervention.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Yes, but. If that 3/8 hole means it is supplying proper amount of air when the chimney is pulling too much draft, it also means it would be supplying not enough air when the chimney is pulling the right amount of draft.
> 
> These guys are way off base in their thinking. There is a reason fossil burners spec chimney dampers tuned to present certain chimney draft - efficient safe combustion in all conditions with no manual intervention.


Maple speaks truth!
Look at the OM on any one of the "premium" wood furnaces out there...they all say you MUST control the draft to XYZ level (usually 0-06") and most require a baro to be installed. Kuumas even come with one...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> I have read the manual. With that said, the original release of the manual last season was a copy and paste from their previous stoves, which operate different from the newer style stoves.
> 
> The last time I added the baro damper, things did not end well. Therefore I am moving forward with caution and trying to operate the stove per their feedback even if it goes against all logic. The last thing I need is to go off on my own and have them tell me good luck, we tried to help. I also don’t want to tell anyone making good suggestions that they are wrong either as everyone here is only trying to help and learn so they can continue to help.
> 
> So far this week, following their suggestions...
> 
> - Distribution blower kicks on shortly after initial load or reload and stays on until all fuel has been burned and the stove is down to hot ambers. When the stove is down to ambers, the distribution blower cycles.
> 
> - Loading the fire box for the over night at 11pm results to the first floor hitting high 80’s at around 2 am and the fire box down to very small ambers at 7am. At 7am the first floor will be 71 degrees. Only complaint here is I should be getting a longer burn time and perhaps not so much of a spike of heat.
> 
> - No matter if it is 20 or 30 outside, the first floor quickly rises to mid 80’s with ease and the second floor maintains ~71 degrees, because the first floor is so hot. This happens even if I reduce the amount of fuel per load. Yes, shorts and a tee shirt is a must.
> 
> - Stove pipe looks like it is burning off the build up of creosol. Here is a photo of the inside of the stove pipe yesterday. I am assuming the flake off is from the previous state of the build up of creosol?
> 
> Assuming this is starting to look like cleaner burns?
> View attachment 233559



I understand what you are saying, however, the results you are seeing are kinda scary.  When it's 30/40 outside you should be able to have enough control over it so it doesn't burn it's entire load in 3-4 hours causing the house drastically overheat.  The way it sits right now, you have zero control, besides the amount of wood you put in.  A BD would help you gain some control.  It's like having a car with on on/off switch for a throttle.  It's either nothing or full throttle.         

I think you are burning "cleaner" because it is burning so hot.  It's MUCH easier to get cleaner burns when you run things wide open.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Side question.. how exact plumb does the baro have to be?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Side question.. how exact plumb does the baro have to be?


Perfect. Plumb too...although the side to side level is probably more important.
I came up with a nifty little tool to level them. A short piece of 2x4 with 3" or 4" legs attached to each side (legs to be EXACTLY the same length) the same width as the pivot pins on the baro door. The legs set on the pins and allow a level to be used...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Side question.. how exact plumb does the baro have to be?



dead nuts level both horizontally and vertically.


----------



## brenndatomu

And just to be clear...the baro itself needs to be level...but the tee will follow the stove pipe angle, you rotate the baro in the tee to get level, then clamp it down.


----------



## maple1

If it is a tiny bit out of level, that might be able to be compensated for in the weight adjustment. Depending which way it is out of level. You do want the flapper to close itself tightly when there is no draft pulling it shut though - so you don't want it out of level that way. Which I guess maybe technically wouldn't be levelness, rather plumbness. Hard to explain exactly. And you don't want it to hang up or catch in its motion - which out of level could also cause. Some dampers worse than others.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> If it is a tiny bit out of level, that might be able to be compensated for in the weight adjustment. Depending which way it is out of level. You do want the flapper to close itself tightly when there is no draft pulling it shut though - so you don't want it out of level that way. Which I guess maybe technically wouldn't be levelness, rather plumbness. Hard to explain exactly. And you don't want it to hang up or catch in its motion - which out of level could also cause. Some dampers worse than others.


I don't think there is a better baro out there than a Fields...and I've had problems with mine sticking when it was initially installed by eye instead of using a level...no problems after leveling though. (and it wasn't that far off)


----------



## maple1

Ya that post was a bit risky - even with 'tiny' and 'might' in there. Sometimes those words get overlooked by some readers. I guess my point was if one is already installed and is a TINY bit out of level, you MIGHT be able to get it to work properly with some adjustment, rather than taking things all apart again & reinstalling. Although depending how it is out of whack, might not be a big deal anyway.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> rather than taking things all apart again & reinstalling.


No need to disassemble...just loosen the clamp and rotate as needed...or if the tee needs to be moved to adjust the plumb, just pull the 6 screws out (should be 3 in each side) rotate as needed, re-install the screws in a slightly different spot since the holes no longer line up.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

The crimped end goes into the non stove side right?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> The crimped end goes into the non stove side right?


No, the male end always goes toward the stove...that way if creosote runs down the inside of the pipe, it stays on the inside rather than running out the joint and causing a fire outside the pipe!


----------



## brenndatomu

Here's an idea...put the tee in, install the baro and try it...if you don't like it then you can always cover it with some heavy duty aluminum foil (I have done this in warmer weather when I didn't want the baro to open) or you can remove the baro and put a cap on the tee.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> No, the male end always goes toward the stove...that way if creosote runs down the inside of the pipe, it stays on the inside rather than running out the joint and causing a fire outside the pipe!



I must have something wrong as the t-snout appears to be the same diameter as the female end of the baro tee. The rest of my piping is from Woodland Direct is is the premium pipe without a crimped end.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I must have something wrong as the t-snout appears to be the same diameter as the female end of the baro tee. The rest of my piping is from Woodland Direct is is the premium pipe without a crimped end.


Hmm, not familiar with that brand, can't say I've ran into that. Did you get this kit?
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Field-C...=dsa&msclkid=8c95)8aa03a011320224735a4fdeafd9
If so I'd maybe try to use the pipe adapter piece as a band clamp around the baro and the tee...or you could cut a 6" wide strip of sheet metal, x 24" long (or so) (maybe some left over ductwork metal?)
Or you could always cut into the pipe and install it the way the kit instructions say to...although I like the tee install better...seems more "quality" to me, plus it gives you the option of capping it off like I mentioned above.
Also, you could get a double male stove pipe adapter...can't remember what they are called exactly...crimped male on both ends, about 6" long...adapt it to your tee that way.
EDIT: Drawband would work too...basically what you would be doing with the strip of 6x24 sheet metal


----------



## maple1

brenndatomu said:


> No need to disassemble...just loosen the clamp and rotate as needed...or if the tee needs to be moved to adjust the plumb, just pull the 6 screws out (should be 3 in each side) rotate as needed, re-install the screws in a slightly different spot since the holes no longer line up.



Yes, you have a point there also.


----------



## brenndatomu

Does your tee have two "female" connections, the one on the side and on one end?


----------



## maple1

Thinking a pic may help here - I can't quite figure out post 90.


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> Also, you could get a double male stove pipe adapter...can't remember what they are called exactly...crimped male on both ends, about 6" long...adapt it to your tee that way.


Guess its just called a male to male adapter...https://www.efireplacestore.com/cpf-73695.html


----------



## brenndatomu

3-2-1...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

The other day I had cut the excess pipe and added an inner sleeve. But the T for the baro still does not quite fit. Will have to look at it later.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> The other day I had cut the excess pipe and added an inner sleeve. But the T for the baro still does not quite fit. Will have to look at it later.
> 
> View attachment 233646


Why not install the tee in the 4' section of stove pipe?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Why not install the tee in the 4' section of stove pipe?



That section is telescoping stove pipe and to allow the stove pipe to be removed, that straight run can be collapsed ~3". Also, because of how that section is angled, it might be a pain to relevel each time the pipe is removed.

 Honestly, it is always a pain to remove the stove pipe as I have 2 adjustable 45-degree angles. Anyone that works with aligning up ductwork does not get paid enough.

I will have to post a photo later to better illustrate.


----------



## maple1

I know every setup is a bit different, but will you be needing to take your stack down? Much? I haven't had mine apart since I put my boiler in 6 years ago. Except to replace a rusty T. If I need to, I can slip a shop vac hose inside my pipe thru the baro flap and vacuum each way from that. I have a T on the back of my boiler I can also pop a cover off to clean ash out if needed.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

And a looking straight down view of the clearance between the stove back control box and the stove pipe.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> I know every setup is a bit different, but will you be needing to take your stack down? Much? I haven't had mine apart since I put my boiler in 6 years ago. Except to replace a rusty T. If I need to, I can slip a shop vac hose inside my pipe thru the baro flap and vacuum each way from that. I have a T on the back of my boiler I can also pop a cover off to clean ash out if needed.



Once I can get the stove dialed in, might not ever have to remove the stove pipe. So far it’s been every couple of weeks to check the pipe for build up.


----------



## maple1

You can also check for buildup thru the baro opening - another little plus.


----------



## brenndatomu

Too bad you don't just have a short piece of telescoping...like 18" or something...would leave you a lot of real estate to pop a tee in.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Question.... 

How many of you guys have the return air ducted directly to the distribution blower vs just pulling air from the basement? 

My setup gets the return air from the basement, leaving the basement door open.


----------



## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> Question....
> 
> How many of you guys have the return air ducted directly to the distribution blower vs just pulling air from the basement?
> 
> My setup gets the return air from the basement, leaving the basement door open.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       My cold return is thru  ducts from  first floor of house.


----------



## brenndatomu

I don't have it connected, I don't think many of us do. It works fine for most people...about the only advantage would be possibly slightly higher duct temps...but I don't think that is a problem that you have now.
Direct connect might put slightly less dust in the house, and might not pick up smells from the basement quite as much...if you had that problem.


----------



## laynes69

Our return air on the woodfurnace is ducted into the central furnaces ducts. We have no open returns in our basement. I will add, we have a full supply and return on our furnace, both have plenums.


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## JRHAWK9

I'm using an open staircase and taking air from the basement ceiling.


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## Mrpelletburner

If anyone reading this thread and owns the FC1500, please let me know if your door has also warped or is tough to open when the firebox is hot.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> If anyone reading this thread and owns the FC1500, please let me know if your door has also warped or is tough to open when the firebox is hot.



Hate to say it, but if they continue to believe that they (HY-C) can operate these units without controlling the chimney draft, they can expect to see a lot more of this kind of stuff.


----------



## laynes69

Oh boy......that didn't take long


brenndatomu said:


> Hate to say it, but if they continue to believe that they (HY-C) can operate these units without controlling the chimney draft, they can expect to see a lot more of this kind of stuff.


Yep, you beat me to it! No furnace can stand the draft speeds and temperature you're subjecting your furnace to. Took no time at all to get this far. Hope they stick behind their warranty, or maybe they will back out and say their furnaces were overfired.....?


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## maple1

I am truly sorry - have wished nothing but the best for you through everything. Really hoping things get sorted.


----------



## S.latulip

Door is straight but expands and is harder to open on my furnace when it is hot.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

S.latulip said:


> Door is straight but expands and is harder to open on my furnace when it is hot.



Have you had to replace the fan limit switch? The distribution blower would not kick on, firebox 650 degrees, without push/pull the auto/manual switch.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Over night temps were in the single digits. Had to load the firebox twice, once at 10:30pm and again at 1:30am. At 1:30am and today at 7am the firebox was down to maybe 2 small ambers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## maple1

Did you get the baro in?

The warped door, short burn times, and maybe even short limit switch life could all be due to too much chimney draft.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> Did you get the baro in?
> 
> The warped door, short burn times, and maybe even short limit switch life could all be due to too much chimney draft.



Not yet, have been trying to get a call with HY-C.


----------



## maple1

Really curious how they hypothesize the warped door.


----------



## laynes69

The colder it gets outside, the shorter your burn times and the hotter your furnace will run. Think of a baro as a form of governor. I would be specific and ask them how their furnace was tested for EPA certification. I guarantee it was not tested with draft speeds that high. Hell I've been seeing posts where stove manufacturers are making plates to add to stoves to tame them down.


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## brenndatomu

Them not requiring draft control is a little bit like an auto manufacturer saying your new truck doesn't need brakes because it was designed to be operated at high speeds. Then when you crash they say you drove it too fast.
They're gonna be warranting more than a door if this isn't dealt with soon.

From one extreme to the next!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Wasn't hard to locate, this is the certification report.

http://hy-c.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/FC1500_SF2600-Certification-Report.pdf

Scroll down to page 6 of 15, where the details of the test start. Trying to locate the draft spec used.


----------



## brenndatomu

Looks like the draft readings during the test can be found several places at least...but page 28, 3rd column from the right, looks like it ranged from -0.04 to -0.06" WC...pretty normal numbers...and I'd bet anybody a box of donuts that @Mrpelletburner[/USER] has waaay more than that...and it's not even good n cold yet.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Over night temps were in the single digits. Had to load the firebox twice, once at 10:30pm and again at 1:30am. At 1:30am and today at 7am the firebox was down to maybe 2 small ambers.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


How was the house temp?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> How was the house temp?



This is where my Ecobee comes in handy as I can go back and see a recording of my inside temperatures and outside temperatures.

At 10:50 pm the outside temperature was 10 degrees and the first floor temp was 73 degrees, remember I loaded the stove at 10:30 pm. 

Then at 12:10 am the outside temperature still at 10 degrees, first floor temp was 81 degrees. 

The next lowest inside temp occurred at 2:55am, where the first floor was 74 degrees (outside was 9 degs). Remember I loaded the stove at 1:30 am.

Then at 4:25 am the outside temperature was 8 degrees and the inside first floor hit 80 degrees.

The next lowest first floor temperature was at 8:10 am and it was 71 degrees, with an outside temperature of 13 degrees.

So besides loading the stove twice, the first floor stayed warm.

Does this heat cycle sound right?


----------



## JRHAWK9

of course it doesn't sound right.  Was the furnace advertised with 3 hour burn times?  This should answer your question right there.  

Not quite sure why you are continuing to let that furnace blow it's load right away.  Take the foot off the accelerator already and install a BD.  Have you even installed the manometer yet, or even temporarily checked your draft with it??  You are not going to have any different outcomes by doing nothing.  This furnace is NOT being operated correctly.


----------



## brenndatomu

It sounds right other than your burn times are way too short...and too intense! But that is typical of a firebox operated with a high chimney draft.
Unless your house has really poor insulation, you should be able to load 2 to 3 times per day...that's 24 hrs


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> of course it doesn't sound right.  Was the furnace advertised with 3 hour burn times?  This should answer your question right there.
> 
> Not quite sure why you are continuing to let that furnace blow it's load right away.  Take the foot off the accelerator already and install a BD.  Have you even installed the manometer yet, or even temporarily checked your draft with it??  You are not going to have any different outcomes by doing nothing.  This furnace is NOT being operated correctly.



Yes, manometer has been installed and connected. My schedule has been tight and single digit temps at the moment, oil heat is not going to cut it. You kind of get used to the warm temps from the stove.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes, manometer has been installed and connected. My schedule has been tight and single digit temps at the moment, oil heat is not going to cut it. You kind of get used to the warm temps from the stove.


Yeah, when the house in in the 80's, I bet that _does_ take some getting used to!  
So what kind of readings you seeing on the manometer? -0.10 and over I'm betting


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> So what kind of readings you seeing on the manometer?



Was just going to ask the same thing.  back when it was warmer he said it was pulling -0.13".  Curious as to what it's pulling when it's in the single digits outside.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> Was just going to ask the same thing.  back when it was warmer he said it was pulling -0.13".  Curious as to what it's pulling when it's in the single digits outside.



When reloading the firebox the stove pulls between .08-.1 in w.c.

When the firebox is nice and hot the stove pulls between 0.14 to 0.18.

When the stove is on the down side of max burn 0.12 to 0.15.


----------



## maple1

About 3x what it should be.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> When reloading the firebox the stove pulls between .08-.1 in w.c.
> 
> When the firebox is nice and hot the stove pulls between 0.14 to 0.18.
> 
> When the stove is on the down side of max burn 0.12 to 0.15.



One minor correction, you say "the stove pulls"...it's actually the chimney pulling on the stove...remember, the chimney is the engine that drives the stove...and you sir have a supercharged big block in your Chevy cavalier!!
I'm not even sure 1 baro is going to be enough to bring that draft down to usable numbers...you may need 2...or a combination of a baro and a manual damper both...don't laugh, I've heard of it before!


----------



## brenndatomu

Your chimney height is what's driving these insane draft numbers...is it a masonry chimney? If it was a class A metal chimney I was gonna say maybe there's a small chance you could take a section or two off and still meet the 10/3/2 rule...


----------



## laynes69

I'd almost bet the burn times would double or triple and the swings in temperature in the home would be gone. Those are crazy draft speeds!


----------



## maple1

brenndatomu said:


> One minor correction, you say "the stove pulls"...it's actually the chimney pulling on the stove...remember, the chimney is the engine that drives the stove...and you sir have a supercharged big block in your Chevy cavalier!!
> I'm not even sure 1 baro is going to be enough to bring that draft down to usable numbers...you may need 2...or a combination of a baro and a manual damper both...don't laugh, I've heard of it before!



I think one baro should do it. I only have one on my 30'. If it is held shut, the chimney can spike to 0.2-0.3 when it's windy. But otherwise it holds it pretty even. I am happy with 0.1 in my boiler though. But the bare-bottom line is that at least one baro is absolutely needed, no matter what Mr. HYC guy on the other end of the phone is saying - the last few posts & warped door video are obvious evidence of what happens when he is listened to.

And a further thought that just occurred  - unless you have recorded all those phone conversations, I think I would stick to the manual anyway. Which lists chimney draft specs and suggests a damper to get those specs without saying no baro. And even lists too much draft as the number one fire hazard, many times. What you have said they tell you on the phone, is to disregard the manual and do the opposite. Which, thinking in terms of a court room setting (sometimes you have to think of being there even if that is the last place you would be), would leave you high & dry if it ever got there - you've been doing contrary to what the manual says. The phone calls are he said/he said stuff. Unless you recorded them. Well.

I don't know how these guys are in business still....


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> But the bare-bottom line is that at least one baro is absolutely needed, no matter what Mr. HYC guy on the other end of the phone is saying - the last few posts & warped door video are obvious evidence of what happens when he is listened to.



Yes, a well designed and built stove should last 20-30 years...and probably never warp a door...even that cheap TSC wood furnace stuff doesn't have that issue...but even the best built wood furnace would not last with those kind of draft numbers!
Yukon, has/had a strict requirement of no more than -0.03" WC, and a 30 year warranty...Kuuma specs -0.04 to -0.06" WC and a 25 year warranty...but gonna go broke with those kind of warranties if you don't control the draft!

But I agree, use the written info contained in the manual...and the info contained in the EPA test...if it was tested at -0.04 to 0.06", then run it that way!


----------



## JMihevic

brenndatomu said:


> . . . Yukon, has/had a strict requirement of no more than -0.03" WC, and a 30 year warranty...Kuuma specs -0.04 to -0.06" WC and a 25 year warranty...but gonna go broke with those kind of warranties if you don't control the draft. . .



I am learning a lot from this thread.

It seems that the amount of chimney draft is very critical.  Is this a requirement for a gasifier type boiler?  I have an old style Tarm MB55.  It seems like the only requirement from the manual is an adequate draft—-a minimum chimney height of 20 Ft.  They don't mention anything about too much draft.  My chimney is 27 ft.  I only have a "paddle" damper in the pipe between the boiler and chimney.  The main air control is the air flap on the bottom of the ash cleaning door.  This is controlled by a mechanical Samson draft regulator that maintains boiler temperature.  Does this type system not have an upper limit on the chimney draft since it is a very simple air tight design which just keeps a fire going in the "big barn".  Just curious.

John M.


----------



## brenndatomu

JMihevic said:


> I am learning a lot from this thread.
> 
> It seems that the amount of chimney draft is very critical.  Is this a requirement for a gasifier type boiler?  I have an old style Tarm MB55.  It seems like the only requirement from the manual is an adequate draft—-a minimum chimney height of 20 Ft.  They don't mention anything about too much draft.  My chimney is 27 ft.  I only have a "paddle" damper in the pipe between the boiler and chimney.  The main air control is the air flap on the bottom of the ash cleaning door.  This is controlled by a mechanical Samson draft regulator that maintains boiler temperature.  Does this type system not have an upper limit on the chimney draft since it is a very simple air tight design which just keeps a fire going in the "big barn".  Just curious.
> 
> John M.


Hi John, yeah I don't have as much back ground in the boiler side of things, but I'm sure limiting the draft speed to a certain level would do nothing but extend your burn times, efficiency, and overall life of the boiler. I looked at some of those Tarms years ago...and I'm almost sure I remember seeing barometric dampers on some of them. A manual damper like yours could work too, bit IMO you really need a permanently mounted manometer to measure the draft for consistent results with setting the damper. 
The only thing bad about a manual damper is if your unit is able to open and close a draft damper on the firebox automatically, then that could cause trouble if you had your manual damper closed too far...the effective draft on the firebox would drop too low and you could have smoke back into the house...a baro eliminates this issue because it self adjusts to allow for changes in the firebox, gusts of wind, etc.
All solid fuel fired appliances can be overfired if is draft too high...doesn't matter the brand/style, they are all made of some type of metal, and metal can only take so much heat. Some units have insulated fireboxes, but even those can be damaged with too high draft if the fire is drawn outside of the firebox or burn chamber...anywhere other than where it was meant to be.

And as I said, draft affects efficiency, for several reasons, but one of the main reasons is time for the flue gasses to transfer heat to the furnace/boiler. Think of it like a hot potato...if you hold it for a split second you may not get burnt...hold onto it for longer, the more the heat transfers, the worse your burn is. Same for flue gasses in your heater, the more time they have to contact the surfaces of the heater, the more heat to your house potentially. 
The higher your draft level, (sometimes referred to as draft speed) the faster the flue gasses are being pulled through the heat exchange area of the furnace/boiler.
Boy, that ended up way too long!
Maybe @maple1 has some additional boiler applicable insight here...


----------



## maple1

JMihevic said:


> I am learning a lot from this thread.
> 
> It seems that the amount of chimney draft is very critical.  Is this a requirement for a gasifier type boiler?  I have an old style Tarm MB55.  It seems like the only requirement from the manual is an adequate draft—-a minimum chimney height of 20 Ft.  They don't mention anything about too much draft.  My chimney is 27 ft.  I only have a "paddle" damper in the pipe between the boiler and chimney.  The main air control is the air flap on the bottom of the ash cleaning door.  This is controlled by a mechanical Samson draft regulator that maintains boiler temperature.  Does this type system not have an upper limit on the chimney draft since it is a very simple air tight design which just keeps a fire going in the "big barn".  Just curious.
> 
> John M.



Yes, draft is important.

I'm not really familiar with an MB55, but looking at a brochure Google found me, I don't think that is a true gasifier? It mentions 'secondary burn', but it is also completely water jacketed with no separation of burn chambers, or refractory. Might have done good for its times, but I would guess not near as good as newer ones.

I have a natural draft 'modern' gasifier. As far as I know from the searching I did when I was planning things 6-7 years ago, it is the only one being produced on the planet. That I could find. Draft is very important for it. It specs minimum 0.08". Which usually needs a pretty high chimney. That much is needed to ensure proper amount and speed of combustion air being moved through the combustion chambers to get it to burn like it is supposed to. And it is the only thing doing it - mine has absolutely no air control on the intake, It is wide open, 100% of the time. Simplicity at its max. Which means chimney draft needs to be in specs all the time.

Too much air will still do the gasification, even more extremely, but will also raise your stack temps too much and pull a lot more heat out the chimney before the heat exchangers can grab it along with also maybe moving the gases through too fast for them all to combust. Other gasifiers don't rely so much on chimney draft, because they use forced draft or induced draft fans to move air through. But they still want to limit max chimney draft as they would also suffer from the same increased pipe temps and reduced heat transfer if the chimney was adding more throughput.

Even with a boiler such as yours, I would still want to add a barometric damper, I think - a manual one might do, if you are around to adjust it for varying conditions. In the right (wrong) conditions, gusty winds can spike drafts & possibly pull fire up into the pipe & light off creosote build up. They could also even maybe pull your manual damper closed. I have seen both happen.

EDIT: That was major off topic - sorry, won't happen again...


----------



## JMihevic

Thanks for your replies brenndatomu and maple1.  My MB55 is not a gasifier.  It is basically just a firebox surrounded by 55 gallons of water.  At the rear of the boiler there is a  baffle surrounded by water to extract more heat out of the flue gases before they go up the chimney.  I will look into getting a barometric damper.  It seems the safest way to go.

John M.


----------



## maple1

With a chimney that tall, you may have too much draft at times, yes. But you also might be controlling it adequately with the manual damper too.

I would likely get a manometer so you can know exactly what your draft is, before installing a barometric damper. Baros can also bring issues with units that don't burn fairly clean. Not unmanageable ones, but could sneak up on a person if not aware. (Creosote buildup...). My old boiler had both. The baro opened up with wind gusts - otherwise the key damper was the main one I used. The baro also helped prevent the wind from moving the manual one around. And gave me a quick easy access to the inside of the pipe for inspection & cleaning. It was also the first place creosote would build.


----------



## S.latulip

Mrpelletburner said:


> Have you had to replace the fan limit switch? The distribution blower would not kick on, firebox 650 degrees, without push/pull the auto/manual switch.


No but my blower fan was disconnected in the control box. Same issue but easy fix. Did pop open limit switch cover. Off 100 on 150 off 200


----------



## Mrpelletburner

S.latulip said:


> No but my blower fan was disconnected in the control box. Same issue but easy fix. Did pop open limit switch cover. Off 100 on 150 off 200



@ S.latulip - wondering how my stove’s burn times compare to your experience. I am burning oak and filling the firebox past the flap.

Last night loaded for the night at about 11pm, loaded the box on top of a 1” bed of hot ambers. Then at 7:15 am today, the first floor was 75 degrees and the fire box still had a 2” bed of hot ambers (my guess is the 2” would of continued heating for another 1 to 2 hours).

So I would say 7 hours until down to hot ambers and another “maybe” 2 heating with just the hot ambers?


----------



## S.latulip

Mrpelletburner said:


> @ S.latulip - wondering how my stove’s burn times compare to your experience. I am burning oak and filling the firebox past the flap.
> 
> Last night loaded for the night at about 11pm, loaded the box on top of a 1” bed of hot ambers. Then at 7:15 am today, the first floor was 75 degrees and the fire box still had a 2” bed of hot ambers (my guess is the 2” would of continued heating for another 1 to 2 hours).
> 
> So I would say 7 hours until down to hot ambers and another “maybe” 2 heating with just the hot ambers?
> 
> View attachment 234526
> 
> 
> View attachment 234527



About the same. Burning seasoned oak. Load with the bigger stuff at night and usually get about 8 hours. Found that keeping the wood packed tight and minimum air gaps also extends burn time along with pulling all coals to the front. Any time the inducer fan runs it blows through wood. No where near the burn time stated but not complaining.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> @ S.latulip - wondering how my stove’s burn times compare to your experience. I am burning oak and filling the firebox past the flap.
> 
> Last night loaded for the night at about 11pm, loaded the box on top of a 1” bed of hot ambers. Then at 7:15 am today, the first floor was 75 degrees and the fire box still had a 2” bed of hot ambers (my guess is the 2” would of continued heating for another 1 to 2 hours).
> 
> So I would say 7 hours until down to hot ambers and another “maybe” 2 heating with just the hot ambers?
> 
> View attachment 234526
> 
> 
> View attachment 234527



Did you get your barometric damper in yet?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

OMFG... Overnight temps have been in the high teens/very low 20’s. Loading for the night at 11pm and by 4am the stove is completely out! 

HY-C suggestion was to double check my loading i.e. small splits on the bottom and larger splits in on the top. Even following this method I can’t get anywhere close to the burn times advertised.

Only grip with this stove is the short burn times.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> OMFG... Overnight temps have been in the high teens/very low 20’s. Loading for the night at 11pm and by 4am the stove is completely out!
> 
> HY-C suggestion was to double check my loading i.e. small splits on the bottom and larger splits in on the top. Even following this method I can’t get anywhere close to the burn times advertised.
> 
> Only grip with this stove is the short burn times.



What kind of wood are you burning?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

prob 98% oak and it is debarked


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> prob 98% oak and it is debarked



Wow, is the wood punky or anything?

Have you tried mixing wood?  I almost always throw some ash in with the oak.  Gets things good and hot fast then let’s the oak burn all night.  I loaded at 7pm last night and it was still putting out heat at 7am this morning with a low of 30 last night. I’m using elm today as it’s 45, cloudy, and rainy out. I get five hours out of this.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Not sure I have enough of non oak to mix woods. 

I have tried to mix 3 year old cord wood with 18 month cord wood and the outcome is the same.

What I keep going back to is my the draft pull of my 32’ chimney. Seems as if most people posting have a shorter double wall pipe stack, potentially with a different draft. 

I have zero issues getting the stove going or putting out heat, just short burn times. 

When loading for the night I rake the coal bed forward and try to stack as tight as possible. The load takes off within 20-40mins. Because the stove outputs so much heat the draft blower does not kick on until there is almost nothing left in the fire box.

HY-C has stressed not to install a baro and the stove is not designed to have one installed. In fact anyone with the newer FC model stove does not have a baro installed.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> What I keep going back to is my the draft pull of my 32’ chimney. Seems as if most people posting have a shorter double wall pipe stack, potentially with a different draft.


Why you _need_ a baro...you could use a manual damper if you are going to run the furnace totally manual too...I'd never put a manual damper on a furnace that has an "auto intake damper" that's hooked up...


----------



## Case1030

I agree with Bren. Looks like you have a few options.

Put a simple manual damper in  and cut off the power to the forced air. Or use a manual damper in tandem with a baro to achieve 0.06 draft. 

Ether that or find a way to close down the primary air intake (forced air will active when call for heat from thermostat) along with adjusting 2ndary air intake air half the amount. Should be able to reduce linkage to achieve that.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Well the big guy did not deliver! All I wanted for Xmas is not to wake up to a cold stove. Loaded the stove at midnight and at 7:30am the stove was toast and had to cold start the stove. 

Cannot express how frustrating it is to wake up to a cold stove when the stove is advertised to burn for 12+ hours.


----------



## brenndatomu

Sounds like you need to talk to elves that are a little further north to get 12 hour loads...


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Well the big guy did not deliver! All I wanted for Xmas is not to wake up to a cold stove. Loaded the stove at midnight and at 7:30am the stove was toast and had to cold start the stove.
> 
> Cannot express how frustrating it is to wake up to a cold stove when the stove is advertised to burn for 12+ hours.




Not trying to brag here... woke up to a nice coal bed after 8-9 hours on half firebox. Probably could have pushed it to 10hours.


----------



## Case1030

Overdraft my friend. Until that's addressed don't expect much control.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Not trying to brag here... woke up to a nice coal bed after 8-9 hours on half firebox. Probably could have pushed it to 10hours.



What do you have for a stove?


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Not trying to brag here... woke up to a nice coal bed after 8-9 hours on half firebox. Probably could have pushed it to 10hours.


Pretty much my experience with the Tundra too...at least after the control mods anyways...


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> What do you have for a stove?



Drolet Tundra 2. On full loads im able to get 13 hours no problem. Rake coals forward and repeat. I also use a tempurature controller that opens and closes based off the flue temp.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> Pretty much my experience with the Tundra too...at least after the control mods anyways...



Thats exactly it, when similar results are achieved by other members. Makes it easy to trouble shoot and in general a better understanding what to expect out of your unit (when setup/installed accordingly).


----------



## JRHAWK9

More details to come.....but I just got between 19-20 hour burn times.  During the 15th hour the house went up a degree from 78° to 79°.  It was a balmy 28-30° outside though, but still.  I loaded the 4CF firebox full of Black Locust before we left to go out of town.  I was monitoring the vitals remotely....

12 hours after loading, the firebox temps were still ~80° from the computer going to pilot.  I'll be posting my handful of data points later in a different thread.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah, I got a matchless re-light last night, after 15 hours, on a half load!


----------



## sloeffle

JRHAWK9 said:


> During the 15th hour the house went up a degree from 78° to 79°.


How do you sleep with the house that warm ? Our house gets to 74 and I’m ready to open the windows.


----------



## Case1030

sloeffle said:


> How do you sleep with the house that warm ? Our house gets to 74 and I’m ready to open the windows.



I hear you, my place climbed upto 78f last night in -8f outside weather on load of elm. Got a little carried away with my self... 10 hours later house still 72f.


----------



## JRHAWK9

lol...we were gone, so my sole purpose was to keep the LP furnace from turning on so I didn't care how warm it got in the house.  I'm sure the cats loved it though.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, I got a matchless re-light last night, after 15 hours, on a half load!




turning the "electronics" off is cheating though.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> I hear you, my place climbed upto 78f last night in -8f outside weather on load of elm. Got a little carried away with my self... 10 hours later house still 72f.



impressive!  small house??


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> turning the "electronics" off is cheating though.



Meh...just a technicality...


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> How do you sleep with the house that warm ? Our house gets to 74 and I’m ready to open the windows.



More details of the situation can be found -HERE-  

I completely agree with you, high 70's is way too warm.  We seem to like it in the 72°-74° area.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> impressive!  small house??



Not terribly small... there is a large heat demand in my climate.

I have a single level 1400 Sft house in Manitoba on a 1000 sqfoot sealed crawlspace. The house has quite a bit a Windows dual panel with storm windows on the outside, and being that it was built early 1960-1970 only has 4 inch studs but built quite well with proper vapor barrior. The attic has regular r20 bat insulation with a good foot to 1.5 feet of blown in on top. Last winter was pretty brutal many days in a row of (-20 to -25 Celsius daytime/ -28 to -35 celcius night) or in Fahrenheit -4 to -31 not including wind chill.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> Not terribly small... there is a large heat demand in my climate.
> 
> I have a single level 1400 Sft house in Manitoba on a 1000 sqfoot sealed crawlspace. The house has quite a bit a Windows dual panel with storm windows on the outside, and being that it was built early 1960-1970 only has 4 inch studs but built quite well with proper vapor barrior. The attic has regular r20 bat insulation with a good foot to 1.5 feet of blown in on top. Last winter was pretty brutal many days in a row of (-20 to -25 Celsius daytime/ -28 to -35 celcius night) or in Fahrenheit -4 to -31 not including wind chill.




We only have a 1,344 SF footprint.  This is why house area, to me, is useless.  House volume seems to make more sense when looking at heat loads.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> More details of the situation can be found -HERE-
> 
> I completely agree with you, high 70's is way too warm.  We seem to like it in the 72°-74° area.





JRHAWK9 said:


> We only have a 1,344 SF footprint.  This is why house area, to me, is useless.  House volume seems to make more sense when looking at heat loads.



100% agree large ceiling peaks take a huge amount of heat. My place is only 8- 10ft flat ceiling.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> 100% agree large ceiling peaks take a huge amount of heat. My place is only 8- 10ft flat ceiling.



Ours has a metal roof overlaid on top of an existing asphalt shingle roof.  On those cooler fall mornings when there is frost covering everything you can really see where on the roof the house is losing some of it's heat.  On the roof peak along the whole length of the house, about a foot or two down on both sides, there will be no frost at all.  Then we also have a handful of other smaller spots on the roof where frost is missing as well.      

When we get snow it doesn't take long at all for the snow at the peak to disappear either.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> Ours has a metal roof overlaid on top of an existing asphalt shingle roof.  On those cooler fall mornings when there is frost covering everything you can really see where on the roof the house is losing some of it's heat.  On the roof peak along the whole length of the house, about a foot or two down on both sides, there will be no frost at all.  Then we also have a handful of other smaller spots on the roof where frost is missing as well.
> 
> When we get snow it doesn't take long at all for the snow at the peak to disappear either.



$hit I'd at least hope you have fans to push that heat down out of the peak. Not really any easy solution to better insulate your roof without having an attic.


----------



## Case1030

So @Mrpelletburner any plans or ideas of what your going to do about that furnace of yours? 

Can't imagine that being very much fun having such crazy temp spikes and no coals to relight.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Well I am able to balance the heat to ~71 to 74. I rand a duct line to the 2nd floor and installed dampers to push more air to certain vents. 

However I cannot get longer than 7ish hours out of this stove no matter how tight the stove is packed. Burning seasoned oak.

If you have fixed primary and a max fixed secondary air (flap opened), can a strong draft still pull more air into the fire box?

Does more seasoned wood burn faster then less seasoned wood?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> If you have fixed primary and a max fixed secondary air (flap opened), can a strong draft still pull more air into the fire box?


Absolutely


Mrpelletburner said:


> Does more seasoned wood burn faster then less seasoned wood?


If you can't control the air to it, yes...BUT, wet wood has a much lower heat output due to boiling out the water and then drying the wood so it can actually burn...result, less heat to the house, and a crapped up chimney, and chunks of black unburnt wood left in the firebox. 
I've said this before here, but burning wet wood is a "false economy"


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Does more seasoned wood burn faster then less seasoned wood?



o boy, I can see where this is going!  

Where did I read about the guy dumping water on half the wood when loading his OWB because it, "increased the burn times".  I'm not kidding, I read it on here or the arborist forum, where they seem to love to burn wet wood in those OWB's.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> I'm not kidding, I read it on here or the arborist forum, where they seem to love to burn wet wood in those OWB's.


And then complain about using 15-20 cords per winter


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> However I cannot get longer than 7ish hours out of this stove no matter how tight the stove is packed. Burning seasoned oak.



Well, with how truthful these manufacturers have been with their "max burn times" over the years I usually took what the manufacturer stated and divided it by two to get a more realistic time.  So, by my calcs, you should be happy as your furnace is overachieving.    



Mrpelletburner said:


> .
> 
> If you have fixed primary and a max fixed secondary air (flap opened), can a strong draft still pull more air into the fire box?



yep.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Well I am able to balance the heat to ~71 to 74. I rand a duct line to the 2nd floor and installed dampers to push more air to certain vents.
> 
> However I cannot get longer than 7ish hours out of this stove no matter how tight the stove is packed. Burning seasoned oak.
> 
> If you have fixed primary and a max fixed secondary air (flap opened), can a strong draft still pull more air into the fire box?
> 
> Does more seasoned wood burn faster then less seasoned wood?



At the same time a strong draft can also carry alot of heat out through the chimney. 

Not sure if you posted flue temps yet but I'm a little curious about that.


----------



## maple1

You could be in quite a catch-22 with this unit.

Sounds like you have a lot of (too much) draft, which is basically burning the wood too fast & sucking heat up the chimney (despite how much it seems to be putting into the house for those few short hours).

But if the unit isn't designed to burn right with a more sensible proper draft, you might be stuck having to chose between good (clean) burning with a lot of wood going up the flue in the form of heat & short burn times, or getting your draft more sensible in the hopes of extending burn times while creating a dirtier burn at the same time and sending a lot of wood up the flue in the form of smoke & creosote.

In other words - you might be a victim yet again of a poorly designed furnace.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Well it happened....




At 10hrs and still a 2” bed of hot embers!


Of course it was 35 last night and now 40 degrees outside 


Filled the stove around 11:30 last night and the house hit a max temperature of 82 degrees (first floor) at 3:30 am. Around this time is where the stoves distribution blower started to cycle (long periods of on then long periods of off). I believe, besides the warm outside temps, the stove still has a bed of hot embers is because the draft blower never kicked in.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Well it happened....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At 10hrs and still a 2” bed of hot embers!
> 
> 
> Of course it was 35 last night and now 40 degrees outside
> 
> 
> Filled the stove around 11:30 last night and the house hit a max temperature of 82 degrees (first floor) at 3:30 am. Around this time is where the stoves distribution blower started to cycle (long periods of on then long periods of off). I believe, besides the warm outside temps, the stove still has a bed of hot embers is because the draft blower never kicked in.




Man, at those outside temps you shouldn't have to load much wood to keep the house warm....confirmed by your house temps being in the 80's.  

If the amount of wood you are loading is being dictated solely by your desire of wanting to achieve overnight burns, you are loading too much wood and are consuming more than you should be resulting in the over-heating your house.

I'm sure you are happy you achieved longer burns, but it's still not running the way it should be.  I don't know if anyone has told you already, but you need to get your draft in check.         It's the driving force behind it's operation and you have a block on the gas pedal and just keep filling the gas tank.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> the stove still has a bed of hot embers is because the draft blower never kicked in.


Didn't realize you were still using the draft blower...at least after the initial firing.
I hate...let me rephrase that...*HATE* forced draft fireboxes...one of the main reasons why is that all of them I have ever used just _chew_ through the wood...and then leave a stone cold firebox waaaay too soon! 
Try turning that thing off after the firebox is up to temp...or you could even wire in a timer to disconnect it after X amount of time


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Didn't realize you were still using the draft blower...at least after the initial firing.
> I hate...let me rephrase that...*HATE* forced draft fireboxes...one of the main reasons why is that all of them I have ever used just _chew_ through the wood...and then leave a stone cold firebox waaaay too soon!
> Try turning that thing off after the firebox is up to temp...or you could even wire in a timer to disconnect it after X amount of time



Yea, always thought it helped in the morning to squeeze the needed heat out. Going to set it to 68 as it is not often the first floor hits 68. Also planing on converting the thermostat to an Ecobee with a remote probe so I can start recording via their online app. I also can setup a shortcut via my phone to kick the draft blower on for 15mins when cold starting.


----------



## maple1

JRHAWK9 said:


> Man, at those outside temps you shouldn't have to load much wood to keep the house warm....confirmed by your house temps being in the 80's.
> 
> If the amount of wood you are loading is being dictated solely by your desire of wanting to achieve overnight burns, you are loading loading too much wood and are consuming more than you should be resulting in the over-heating your house.
> 
> I'm sure you are happy you achieved longer burns, but it's still not running the way it should be.  I don't know if anyone has told you already, but you need to get your draft in check.         It's the driving force behind it's operation and you have a block on the gas pedal and just keep filling the gas tank.



Since getting our heat pumps in November, I let them do the heating at most anything -5c or warmer (sometimes colder) for around a buck a day. 

(Did that sound like an infommercial?)


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yea, always thought it helped in the morning to squeeze the needed heat out.


It does...up your chimney. Now if you have a huge pile of coals you need to burn down before reloading, then that's a different story.
Ever tried running a load without using the draft blower at all? (or very minimally, just to get things started)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Guys and ladies buy a lotto ticket, 10am and still had embers, enough to restart. BTW I loaded the stove at 10:30 pm last night and added 2 splits at 11:30 and set the draft blower to 66. Outside temps were mid to upper 20’s.

Also installed a temp prob in the stove pipe about 18” from the back of the stove. What is to high for temps where I am just loosing heat?


----------



## sloeffle

Mrpelletburner said:


> What is to high for temps where I am just loosing heat?


When my secondaries are going I usually see exhaust temps around 400F. I know the boiler guys consider ( Post #6) 400F to be an ideal stack temperature also.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> What is to high for temps where I am just loosing heat?


I had the Tundra temp controller set to close the damper at 350* F...some run theirs much higher though...if you look at the best units (furnaces, boilers, etc) the exhaust temp runs 250-300 once firebox is up and things are "cruising".
Its hard to say what kind of temps you will be able to run with that unit...seems like a bird of a different color.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Thanks [emoji120] 

Will have to log the temps.

On another note we will go a full year on 1 tank of oil.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I see flue temps (12" from the collar) anywhere from 275°-325°...mainly sitting at around the 290°- 310° area when the computer is on low and on pilot.  When the computer opens up to '1' for good I will  see them around 325° consistently.........same for when it opens up to '2'.  I'll maybe touch 400° briefly when re-loading on hot coals before the computer dampers things down.  Not always though, there are times it may hit a high of 370°-390° before the damper starts to close and the flue temps start to drop from there.

<edited>  Just measured the distance from the collar to the probe and it's 12" on the nuts.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Earlier when the stove was at it’s peak, the prob measured 550 F. Box was half filled and each split was glowing red.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Earlier when the stove was at it’s peak, the prob measured 550 F. Box was half filled and each split was glowing red.


This is with draft blower on or no?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> This is with draft blower on or no?



Not on


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Not on


Wow...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Probe 12” away from the back of the stove 518F and a probe in the horizontal run for the T-snub is 238 F


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> View attachment 236995
> 
> 
> Probe 12” away from the back of the stove 518F and a probe in the horizontal run for the T-snub is 238 F



Definitely try to get your flue temp below  400f during its peak. 

Your losing a fair amount of heat out the flue and shaving burn time down considerably operating that way.


----------



## JRHAWK9

IMO, really, for what that furnace is....it's not horrendous.  I just recently found out the stove guys see flue temps much higher than that even......and it's considered to be normal.


----------



## Medic21

I’m seeing 550-650 when lighting or reloading.  375-430 during the burn.  That is with the blower running.


----------



## 3fordasho

JRHAWK9 said:


> IMO, really, for what that furnace is....it's not horrendous.  I just recently found out the stove guys see flue temps much higher than that even......and it's considered to be normal.



Yep, my 30nc will see 600-700F flue temps during the active part of the burn.  Considered normal I guess. Plus when it's not that hot, the thing smokes more than any other stove or furnace I've had.  For a stove that's highly recommended on this site, color me not impressed.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> IMO, really, for what that furnace is....it's not horrendous.  I just recently found out the stove guys see flue temps much higher than that even......and it's considered to be normal.



Yeah I guess the limit is nearly reached to how much can be expected out of the Hy-c furnace. Can't really change the design of the stove.

My insert (Century 2900 epa) would occasionally run at 600f internal flue during peak burn, but they aren't even comparable to the higher efficency furnaces when it comes to heat extraction efficiency.  

What @Mrpelletburner could do is contact the company and ask what normal internal flue temp range is when the combustion fan is off. (Might not get accurate/helpful information after hearing how your last conversation with hy-c went but is worth a try.)


----------



## sloeffle

I should of added this to my last post. My probe is about 6" from the back of my furnace. I'm not sure if that is why I'm seeing a little higher temps than the other guys. My draft speeds are always pretty low when temps are above 20F ( my chimney isn't very tall ) so I generally have to keep a small nail or a paper clip on the front flap to keep the secondaries going which doesn't help either.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> I should of added this to my last post. My probe is about 6" from the back of my furnace. I'm not sure if that is why I'm seeing a little higher temps than the other guys. My draft speeds are always pretty low when temps are above 20F ( my chimney isn't very tall ) so I generally have to keep a small nail or a paper clip on the front flap to keep the secondaries going which doesn't help either.



I have a Tempoint probe inserted right at the collar and it does seem to read slightly higher when reloading on coals before it goes to pilot, but generally both are pretty close when the furnace is on pilot.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DSV90ZY/?tag=hearthamazon-20

I didn't pay anywhere near that price!  It was the very first one I bought and had installed even before my first fire.


----------



## Medic21

Case1030 said:


> What @Mrpelletburner could do is contact the company and ask what normal internal flue temp range is when the combustion fan is off. (Might not get accurate/helpful information after hearing how your last conversation with hy-c went but is worth a try.)



That’s kinda funny.  I’ve waited over a week for a return call after the last suggestion resulted in me not even able to get a fire burning.  Their latest solution to the puffing was a top down fire.  

I’m getting close to a year in operation and closer to checking with a lawyer.

  I’ve had professionals come in and inspect the install and got a clear approval on that.  It will not burn consistently without the forced draft riunning, period.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> I’m getting close to a year in operation and closer to checking with a lawyer.



Can we all go in on a class action lawsuit?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Class action suits only seem to make the lawyers rich......lol


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> Class action suits only seem to make the lawyers rich......lol



Whatever suite to stop the sales and some $$ in my pocket for my wasted time/effort and cost of stove/install.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> What is to high for temps where I am just loosing heat?






	

		
			
		

		
	
  This a pic I took a few weeks back...top is internal flue temp (sensor about 18" from furnace)
bottom is duct temp. This is in the height of the burn...everything on "cruise control"
It actually went a little lower than 235* even...I was starting to think that I need to bump my draft speed up a bit ...I did go clean the temp probe, just to make sure it wasn't sooted up (it was fine)


----------



## woodey

JRHAWK9 said:


> Class action suits only seem to make the lawyers rich......lol




What's the difference between a dead lawyer and a dead snake in the road ?  There are skid marks in front of the snake.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Maybe 8” of glowing hot splits, no draft blower and “cruise” mode.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> View attachment 237036
> 
> 
> Maybe 8” of glowing hot splits, no draft blower and “cruise” mode.


Where are the various temps from?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

T1 - 12” rear of stove, inside stove pipe
T2 - inside distribution blower box
T3 - inside stove pipe 6” into t snout
T4 - inside plenum


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> T1 - 12” rear of stove, inside stove pipe
> T2 - inside distribution blower box
> T3 - inside stove pipe 6” into t snout
> T4 - inside plenum



Are you missing part of your baffle.  Those are very hot temps for that low of a temp in the plenum.


----------



## brenndatomu

703.9*  I can see the headlines now..."EPA dues HY-C corp for contributing to global warming"  

And only 106* plenum temp with 700+ in the flue?!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Are you missing part of your baffle.  Those are very hot temps for that low of a temp in the plenum.



I don’t think I am. Front of the stove, left side of the door, is around 500 degrees (measured with temp laser gun.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Distribution blower inside temps are low. Perhaps causing the low plenum temp.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> I don’t think I am. Front of the stove, left side of the door, is around 500 degrees (measured with temp laser gun.



Next time it’s cold look at the brick on top.  Make sure they are pushed all the way to the back and none are dislodged.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Distribution blower inside temps are low. Perhaps causing the low plenum temp.


I would say your return air temp is pretty typical for anyone that does not have return air duct hooked up...just pulling off the floor basically. That plenum temp is not impressive.
Last winter I tried out a Kuuma VF200...when the flue temps were 450*F, the supply duct temp was 200*+!


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> I would say your return air temp is pretty typical for anyone that does not have return air duct hooked up...just pulling off the floor basically. That plenum temp is not impressive.
> Last winter I tried out a Kuuma VF200...when the flue temps were 450*F, the supply duct temp was 200*+!



Mine are 150 with 225 flue temps. Still running on 5 min off a min.


----------



## woodey

brenndatomu said:


> And only 106* plenum temp with 700+ in the flue?!


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Sorry if I missed this in a  earlier post , but has a baro damper been attempted in this unit  or would  this void the warranty?


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> Still running on 5 min off a min.


? How's that? You wire up a timer or something?


----------



## brenndatomu

woodey said:


> Sorry if I missed this in a  earlier post , but has a baro damper been attempted in this unit  or would  this void the warranty?


They keep telling him "DO NOT INSTALL BARO!" Can you believe that?!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

woodey said:


> What temp is the lower limit switch  set at to activate the blower , could this be adjusted to kick  on earlier before heat is lost to the flu????



I believe it is ~100 degrees and yes it can be adjusted. Distribution blower is running nonstop.

Trying not to change anything to avoid voiding the warranty.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> ? How's that? You wire up a timer or something?



Just cycling with the thermostat.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> I believe it is ~100 degrees and yes it can be adjusted. Distribution blower is running nonstop.
> 
> Trying not to change anything to avoid voiding the warranty.



Mine is on at 150 off at 90.  It was set at off 110 and it really extended how long it will produce heat by lowering it.


----------



## woodey

Would adjusting lower limit switch to kick in at a lower temp help by putting more heat to the house and less lost to the flu.


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> Just cycling with the thermostat.


Ah, I think I see what you are doing...I thought about that in the past...some nice outside the box thinking there!


----------



## Medic21

woodey said:


> Would adjusting lower limit switch to kick in at a lower temp help by putting more heat to the house and less lost to the flu.



That’s a tricky situation.  Cool it off too much early it will lower flue temps and effect creosote buildup.  I have to burn for a good 30 min on a cold stove to get it to even kick in.  About a hour in it runs on/off about 50% and 1/2 way it will run continuously until the thermostat for the draft motor kicks off.


----------



## Case1030

sloeffle said:


> I should of added this to my last post. My probe is about 6" from the back of my furnace. I'm not sure if that is why I'm seeing a little higher temps than the other guys. My draft speeds are always pretty low when temps are above 20F ( my chimney isn't very tall ) so I generally have to keep a small nail or a paper clip on the front flap to keep the secondaries going which doesn't help either.



How tall is your chimney. I only have a 16ft and find I have to keep a bent grounded down nail any weather above 14f. My flue sits around 350f but low alarm will kick in at 275f in cold weather.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> I would say your return air temp is pretty typical for anyone that does not have return air duct hooked up...just pulling off the floor basically. That plenum temp is not impressive.
> Last winter I tried out a Kuuma VF200...when the flue temps were 450*F, the supply duct temp was 200*+!



Yes, I need to draw in that warm air from the basement ceiling. Was thinking of making a box attachment made from fire resistant rigid insulation.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes, I need to draw in that warm air from the basement ceiling. Was thinking of making a box attachment made from fire resistant rigid insulation.



Not sure how much that will gain you, overall. If it raises plenum temps, it will also raise flue temps. Which are already sky high, BTW - yikes.

Another way of looking at it - you are seeing a 47° rise (dT) through the furnace. What are other furnace users seeing? Chime in, folks.


----------



## Medic21

maple1 said:


> Not sure how much that will gain you, overall. If it raises plenum temps, it will also raise flue temps. Which are already sky high, BTW - yikes.
> 
> Another way of looking at it - you are seeing a 47° rise (dT) through the furnace. What are other furnace users seeing? Chime in, folks.



When everything is warmed up 70 degree airbin and 140-150 out.


----------



## maple1

Another factor is distribution blower speed. And how much that might be varying from setup to setup.

All else being equal, if you move more air, you will lower the dT - but overall heat output would be the same. So dT isn't the only factor here. Which makes it kind of hard to directly compare between setups.

Seems pretty evident the stack temps here are way too high though.


----------



## sloeffle

Case1030 said:


> How tall is your chimney. I only have a 16ft and find I have to keep a bent grounded down nail any weather above 14f. My flue sits around 350f but low alarm will kick in at 275f in cold weather.


It is either 20 or 24 feet. I can't remember if it is 5 or 6 sticks of SS double wall pipe. 

24 feet seems more realistic though just from doing some basic measurements in my head.


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> Another factor is distribution blower speed. And how much that might be varying from setup to setup.
> 
> All else being equal, if you move more air, you will lower the dT - but overall heat output would be the same. So dT isn't the only factor here. Which makes it kind of hard to directly compare between setups.
> 
> Seems pretty evident the stack temps here are way too high though.




I was just going to mention this, as it's very hard to compare plenum temps between two completely different setups.  Too many different factors at play.  Not just speed, but volume and duct pressures as well.



maple1 said:


> Another way of looking at it - you are seeing a 47° rise (dT) through the furnace. What are other furnace users seeing? Chime in, folks.



△T of 47° is very good, IMO.  My 75K BTU LP furnace, for comparison's sake, using the *-low- *speed tap on the blower motor sees a max △T of 48°.  Using the medium-low speed tap that drops the △T to 42°.  The acceptable △T range for my LP furnace is 35° - 65°.  It was originally setup using the medium-high speed tap but I changed that last year because the △T using that faster tap resulted in a △T of only 35°.  My HVAC buddy told me to put the △T in the middle of the acceptable range to balance the longevity of HX vs efficiency.  

To me this furnace seems to act more like a cleaner burning version of the old school inefficient ones.  Consuming lots of wood (if you want to keep a fire going), great heat output, short burn times and high stack temps.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> Last winter I tried out a Kuuma VF200...when the flue temps were 450*F, the supply duct temp was 200*+!


Brenndatomu's Skunk Works ????


----------



## maple1

JRHAWK9 said:


> I was just going to mention this, as it's very hard to compare plenum temps between two completely different setups.  Too many different factors at play.  Not just speed, but volume and duct pressures as well.
> 
> 
> 
> △T of 47° is very good, IMO.  My 75K BTU LP furnace, for comparison's sake, using the *-low- *speed tap on the blower motor sees a max △T of 48°.  Using the medium-low speed tap that drops the △T to 42°.  The acceptable △T range for my LP furnace is 35° - 65°.  It was originally setup using the medium-high speed tap but I changed that last year because the △T using that faster tap resulted in a △T of only 35°.  My HVAC buddy told me to put the △T in the middle of the acceptable range to balance the longevity of HX vs efficiency.
> 
> To me this furnace seems to act more like a cleaner burning version of the old school inefficient ones.  Consuming lots of wood (if you want to keep a fire going), great heat output, short burn times and high stack temps.



But - your LP furnace dTs, I suspect, are achieved with MUCH lower flue temps?

So - we have here a burner that burns and makes heat (fairly uncontrollably, it seems) way faster than it can exchange it. Can't slow the burn, can't up the exchange. 

Double-whammied.

If the burn could satisfactorily be slowed, and warmer return air supplied, we would likely have an improved situation. But warming the return air would actually lead to less exchange (maybe insignificant, not sure).

Huh, a slinky commercial just popped into my head....


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Brenndatomu's Skunk Works ????




https://hearth.com/talk/threads/uh-oh-whats-this.172989/


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> So - we have here a burner that burns and makes heat (fairly uncontrollably, it seems) way faster than it can exchange it. Can't slow the burn, can't up the exchange.



yep, what i was getting at when I mentioned inefficient comparing it to the old school ones.     It's making heat too fast and almost impossible for it to exchange it.




maple1 said:


> Not sure how much that will gain you, overall. If it raises plenum temps, it will also raise flue temps.



I agree, as the larger the △T the more efficient the heat transfer should be as more heat should be stripped.

however.......  (o boy, this may get long winded....again.   )
My wood furnace warm/cold air supply setup is definitely NOT a conventional setup.  All I know though is that it heats this sieve of a house pretty damn well now and -MUCH- better than it did with the out-of-the-box conventional setup I had originally.  In fact some of what I have done to achieve better results may actually go against conventional methods/thoughts/practices and may not even make sense as to how I'm seeing the results I'm seeing and may not even work for others.     I'm seeing them though, so that's all that matters.  

Here's a prime example.  When I first installed the furnace I did it according to standard procedure.  Using an open staircase, I was taking the cold air directly off the cold concrete basement floor and heating it, using the low speed blower tap.  Simple snap switch on/off blower.  With the furnace on low I was seeing a △T of ~30° IIRC.  Taking in 65° - 68° basement floor air and sending out ~95 - 100° supply air.  I found out soon after installation I pretty much had no duct static pressure so that didn't help, as I was moving high volumes of air so fast through the air jacket it may not have had "time" to extract maximum heat.  I was sending out high volumes of 95° air.  The very first fall of burning I was pretty much burning 24/7 already and temps really were not all that cold yet.  The furnace vitals were always fine, it was burning great, going on pilot for extended periods, good stack temps, great burn times, etc.  I chalked it up to the house being that bad....which I knew it was seeing we averaged ~1,300 gallons of LP a year over a span of 5 or 6 years.

Fast forward to today.  

I have been, for the past few years now, taking the warmer air off the basement ceiling AND also mixing some of the reclaimed hot radiant heat off the face of the Kuuma before it gets heated.  In essence I'm taking in 80°-85° "cold air" and sending it through to be heated.  I would probably see even lower stack temps if I was sending through cooler 70° basement "cold air", but it would not heat the house better.  The warmer "cold air" directly resulted in warmer supply temps.

I also have my blower speed controlled and slowed WAY down.  The slower the blower, the warmer the supply temps are once again.  I have dramatically reduced the volume of air being passed through the air jacket and into the house, but dramatically increased the temp of it.  I'm sending it maybe 70V when in the middle of a burn with the computer on low....it's cutting out at around 98° when the blower is only receiving 45V or so.  My △T now, with the computer on low is still ~ 30°.  Taking in 80°-85° air and sending it out 115°-118°.  I have yet to have to take it off minimum burn this year.  Guessing I will be seeing 125-130° max plenum temps on max burn......so a △T of around 40° - 45°.  Seeing it's speed controlled, the warmer the supply temps are the more volume of air being supplied.  It's a win-win.

So I'm sending out much lower volumes of warmer air and it's heating the house better in ALL weather, even below zero.  The slower I slowed the blower down the warmer the supply temps, the better the results were.  In the temps we have been seeing this winter so far (warmer than average), I'm still not able to keep a  fire going 24/7 w/o over-heating the house.  Seems I need 50+ HDD's before I can burn 24/7 consistently.  A far cry from what I was seeing at first.     

I also added an OAK to the BD as well as to the basement floor for makeup air.  Was worried about it contributing to the "stack effect" of the house, but don't think it has.  This has also seemed to have made a positive difference.  

Anyway, the whole point of this rambling is everyone's house and setup is different.  Don't be afraid to try different things.  They may or may not work, but you won't know till you try them.  I've tried things in the past which made things worse, but I wanted to try them.    I was also unsure about the OAK on the BD, but it seemed to work out just fine.





sloeffle said:


> Brenndatomu's Skunk Works ????




yeah, pretty much!


----------



## sloeffle

@JRHAWK9 are you measuring your T at the register or in the plenum of the wood / gas furnace ?

I too also noticed that my house heated better when my fan is on speed 2 vs speed 3. It heats a lot better when the fan speed controller and the fan is on speed 2.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

What is “BD”?


----------



## maple1

Barometric Damper.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Ok... OAK?


----------



## maple1

Outside Air Kit


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> @JRHAWK9 are you measuring your T at the register or in the plenum of the wood / gas furnace ?



On the LP furnace the cold air was measured about 5' vertically upstream of the LP furnace's air filter and the supply temp was measured in the main supply duct 12' downstream of the plenum, not including the height of the plenum.  So about 14.5' including the height of the plenum.

Wood furnace....the cold air temp was measured inside the blower box.  The supply was measured in the same spot in the main supply line which happens to be the same 12' from the wood furnace plenum.  Again, not including the vertical rise/height of the plenum.  The same 14.5' if including the vertical rise of the plenum.  I also use a Thermoworks Smoke BBQ thermometer to be able to remotely monitor plenum/stack temps.  When things are all up to temp and are cruising, the plenum temp from the BBQ thermometer (which is right at the very top of the plenum) matches the temp in the supply duct 12' downstream.  

I have an analog HVAC temp gauge permanently mounted in the supply duct in that spot 12' (in horizontal duct length) from both furnaces.


I also have a gauge up on the ceiling right at the intake of cold air of the wood furnace.  This allows for me to see the △T between the air at the ceiling and  the air being sent into the air jacket to be heated, which includes the air being injected from the face of the furnace.

Also have the same HVAC temp gauge stuck into the 6" duct right before the BD to see what temp the air is I'm mixing with the flue gasses to send up the chimney.  Lowest I've seen was 20°.....when it was around 0 outside IIRC.  This was late last year.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> $hit I'd at least hope you have fans to push that heat down out of the peak. Not really any easy solution to better insulate your roof without having an attic.



yeah, we have two ceiling fans running 24/7/365.

Here's an example of what I mentioned above.
We got 4-5" of snow overnight.  Temps dropped to 14° overnight and when I went out to blow snow this morning I looked up at the roof and this is what I saw.


----------



## JRHAWK9

woodey said:


> I have learned plenty in he short time I have been on this forum and am sure to learn more yet thanks to the more knowledgeable members chiming in.  If someone is having shorter than desired burn times,temps spiking to above 80 in the house and distribution blower running constantly(   which seems to be some of issues Mrpellettburner is having to deal with)- In theory if the lower limit switch was moved from 100 to 120-125  shouldn't this allow for a lower BTU output causing the distribution blower to cycle off and on and help to extend burn times????



IMO, from a strictly delivered efficiency standpoint. you want the distribution blower running as much as you can.  Otherwise you are just wasting BTU's.  It won't be able to strip anything off the flue gasses if the blower is not running.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> yeah, we have two ceiling fans running 24/7/365.
> 
> Here's an example of what I mentioned above.
> We got 4-5" of snow overnight.  Temps dropped to 14° overnight and when I went out to blow snow this morning I looked up at the roof and this is what I saw.
> 
> View attachment 237151
> View attachment 237152
> View attachment 237153



That's crazy. Alot of heat bust be making it's way through your roof to cause that. Any future solutions planned to minimize heat loss?


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> IMO, from a strictly delivered efficiency standpoint. you want the distribution blower running as much as you can.  Otherwise you are just wasting BTU's.  It won't be able to strip anything off the flue gasses if the blower is not running.



Do you also have a pressure head controller on your Kuuma for slowing down fan speed?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> That's crazy. Alot of heat bust be making it's way through your roof to cause that. Any future solutions planned to minimize heat loss?




unfortunately no.  We just had that metal roof overlaid a handful of years ago, before the wood furnace.  Nothing you can really do at this point except rip both roofs off as well as the sheeting underneath in order to access the minimal 12-15" of airspace.  One could probably somehow access the airspace from the inside but that would me tough to do also.  We had an energy audit place who does insulation come and look at it and the cost to do something about it would be quite a bit.    I'm not a home remodel kind of guy, so my abilities are limited, add to that the height of the ceiling and the pitch of the roof and it's a no for me.  




Case1030 said:


> Do you also have a pressure head controller on your Kuuma for slowing down fan speed?




yep I do.  I checked the voltage being sent to the blower motor yesterday morning while in the middle of a small burn on low and it was only being sent 67V RMS.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> yep I do.  I checked the voltage being sent to the blower motor yesterday morning while in the middle of a small burn on low and it was only being sent 67V RMS.



I'm thinking about putting one of those on the furnace. I have no complaints, heats really well. But since I have the unit in my sunroom, when I go in there I dont want to be hearing... click... click on... off. And it would be nice to turn the fan noise down a bit.

I was looking at the ICM 326 might need some guidance. Maybe it's a good idea to create a new thread for others down the line that might need help also.


----------



## sloeffle

Case1030 said:


> I was looking at the ICM 326 might need some guidance. Maybe it's a good idea to create a new thread for others down the line that might need help also.


That is what I used on my Caddy. I'd highly recommend installing one. The install was pretty straight forward if you have any kind of electrical knowledge. I was tired of hearing the off and on, off and on too.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I'm using the Totaline version of the 326 I believe.  
I agree, I would recommend installing one too.  It's not the most efficient way to speed control our type of motors, but it's definitely the cheapest and easiest.  Keep in mind you WILL need a True-RMS meter if you want to meter the correct voltage being sent to the motor from the SC.  Non RMS meters are not accurate, as the voltage coming from the SC is not a pure sine wave.  

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/best-practices/measurement-basics/electricity/what-is-true-rms


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> I'm thinking about putting one of those on the furnace. I have no complaints, heats really well. But since I have the unit in my sunroom, when I go in there I dont want to be hearing... click... click on... off. And it would be nice to turn the fan noise down a bit.
> 
> I was looking at the ICM 326 might need some guidance. Maybe it's a good idea to create a new thread for others down the line that might need help also.


Biggest thing(s) I did that took my Tundra from dud to stud was, 1. Mypin temp controller 2. Head pressure (speed) controller on the blower. Keeping that blower running low and slow at the end made even more difference in heat output than I expected...and I expected a lot!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Would anyone believe me if I could tell you what the inside flue temps (18” from the rear of the stove) were by just reading the draft?

If I measure a -.2” wc draft, my flue temp will be 1,000 degrees F.

If I measure a -.15 wc draft, my flue temps will be ~550

Yup... a -.18” wc and the flue temp is 800.

Not sure if this is the norm, but I bet my flue is clean.

Still only achieving a 7hr run time. Been a bit shorter with single digit temps.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Would anyone believe me if I could tell you what the inside flue temps (18” from the rear of the stove) were by just reading the draft?
> 
> If I measure a -.2” wc draft, my flue temp will be 1,000 degrees F.
> 
> If I measure a -.15 wc draft, my flue temps will be ~550
> 
> Yup... a -.18” wc and the flue temp is 800.
> 
> Not sure if this is the norm, but I bet my flue is clean.
> 
> Still only achieving a 7hr run time. Been a bit shorter with single digit temps.



Well... we all got to work with what we got. But to put it this way I wouldn't be very happy with any burn times under 10 hours.

I'd be making sure my wheel is getting greased after only getting half of the burn time expected out of a furnace that size.

Also in regards to flue temp... you can't claim heat once it's in the chimney. Also not going to heat the outside ether lol. That draft is just robbing all your heat.


----------



## Case1030

Loaded it an hour ago and will last me 11-12 hours ~9am. Not trying to toot any horns here. JRHawk or Bren might be posting 14 hour burns . 

Once I put a fan speed controller I'm hoping to milk a couple more hours out of my unit.

If it ain't perfect try to do your best to make it work.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

What is the bathroom fan timer for?

Right now I have been, with the approval from HY-C, cutting of the amount of primary air. Still seeing very high flue temps and the same burn times.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> What is the bathroom fan timer for?
> 
> Right now I have been, with the approval from HY-C, cutting of the amount of primary air. Still seeing very high flue temps and the same burn times.



I use it right after I load the wood. Allows me to load and go on coals by keeps the flue temperature between a certain range high enough to promote secondary combustion and clean burn while not keeping the temps that high throughout the course of the entire burn.

It's kinda acts like a thermostat for the flue. Keeping it from throwing heat out the chimney.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Basically your running the draft blower to keep the secondary burn going?

It was mentioned that I should run the draft blower for 15 mins after reloading. Thought it was more for ensuring that the fire got a jump start.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Basically your running the draft blower to keep the secondary burn going?
> 
> It was mentioned that I should run the draft blower for 15 mins after reloading. Thought it was more for ensuring that the fire got a jump start.



Well in your case it would be a draft blower. For me it uses the natural draft of the stove to introduce air into the firebox. Simple cover allows air in and shuts when its satisfied. Has a big enough hole to maintain combustion in secondarys and small hole in primary aswell.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Loaded at 5:20 am, outside temps 7, draft blower off






8:41 am still cold out, no draft blower






Noon, prob 12 out and still no draft blower. At least 3” of very hot embers.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Loaded at 5:20 am, outside temps 7, draft blower off
> 
> View attachment 238125
> 
> 
> 8:41 am still cold out, no draft blower
> 
> View attachment 238126
> 
> 
> Noon, prob 12 out and still no draft blower. At least 3” of very hot embers.
> 
> View attachment 238127



Yeah your not loading it that much. About half load? That's not too bad. 

I guess if your able to lower your draft a bit you could benefit from a slower burn, while being able to load it more wood and get the extra burn time. Do you have much more room to reduce primary maybe even secondary air a bit more?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Yeah your not loading it that much. About half load? That's not too bad.
> 
> I guess if your able to lower your draft a bit you could benefit from a slower burn, while being able to load it more wood and get the extra burn time. Do you have much more room to reduce primary maybe even secondary air a bit more?



Actually I couldn’t load the firebox anymore as the darn smoke shield wouldn’t close. That thing has to go, nothing bust a pain in the ass.

Last night at 11:30 loaded for the night





Reloading now at 6:14 am (zero heat, distribution lower no longer cycling!)





So, yes there are still hot embers but what is the point when the stove is no longer heating the house. Really really really tired of reloading every 5 f’n hours

Nothing I can do to adjust secondary, only can add or cut back on primary air.

Also, last night I had discovered I had a broken bolt on the back of the stove that was allowing extra air to be pulled into the back of the stove. Now I understand bolts can break, but WTF.

HY-C has spent time this week trying to diagnose, but I am going through wood at 2x the rate as I expect. I am just really at the end of my rope.

Broken bolt





High temp sealant to fix for now


----------



## maple1

My diagnosis: furnace needs to operate properly at 0.06" WC. If it won't, it has a defective design. End of story.

I'm a bit unsure about your primary air mention. You haven't been shutting it down - until they said it was ok to do so? I would think that would be the first thing to do. Well, right after getting draft in spec.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> My diagnosis: furnace needs to operate properly at 0.06" WC. If it won't, it has a defective design. End of story.
> 
> I'm a bit unsure about your primary air mention. You haven't been shutting it down - until they said it was ok to do so? I would think that would be the first thing to do. Well, right after getting draft in spec.



So the primary air is provided via an opening on the draft blower. The opening is fixed via 2 rivets, so one cannot adjust as they see fit. The draft blower is attached to the rear of the stove where the air is preheated via a channel that delivers the air across the bottom front of the stove. So the primary air is either supplied by force when the  draft blower is on or from the natural draft of the stove.

As you can see I am testing cutting down the primary air using the blue tape. I have discovered that shutting off the primary air completely doesn’t allow the stove to maintain a hot enough fire to heat the house. Therefore I have been testing different openings.







Now I hear you loud and clear regarding the 0.06” WC, we know how to fix that, but I need to play ball. 

HY-C has stated that even with a higher draft, let’s say 0.1” WC, I still shouldn’t have the crazy high temps in the flue. So the focus has been on what is causing the high flue temps.

My fear is I give up on this stove and the next brand stove I am back to square 1.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> My fear is I give up on this stove and the next brand stove I am back to square 1.



If you buy a decent one next time you'll be starting at square one.....not at square -10 where you have started the last two furnaces.


----------



## sloeffle

You are a patient man @Mrpelletburner. I'd of told HY-C to shove that furnace where the sun doesn't shine after working with them for a week or so. Honestly, I would of told PSG the same thing if I had one of the original Tundra's too. And neither company would of gotten another cent of my hard earned money again. These companies shouldn't be using their customers as an R&D department.

**rant over**



Mrpelletburner said:


> My fear is I give up on this stove and the next brand stove I am back to square 1


I've had my Caddy for eights years and have had zero problems out of it. From what @Case1030 has reported, it sounds like PSG has worked all of the kinks out of the Tundra line too with the Tundra II. If you have the dough, order a Kuuma now and you'll have it for next winter.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> My fear is I give up on this stove and the next brand stove I am back to square 1.


The difference now is when (not if ) you move to the next brand stove you will know to do some homework here first so you don't get another turd...which since it is the only one even close to the same price range I would bet it would be a Tundra II...and that would be a good choice...with $100 worth of aftermarket controls they can be made into something that works _almost_ as well as a Kuuma...almost


----------



## Medic21

JRHAWK9 said:


> If you buy a decent one next time you'll be starting at square one.....not at square -10 where you have started the last two furnaces.



Farm show this week.  Going to take advantage of the pricing and get either a MF5000 or C250 from heatmaster or C250 from Crown Royal.  They will have all of them at the show.  

I am done with H-YC.  this has not worked as designed and I finally fixed the puffing problem with a reostat and relays but, it cut burn times to 7 hours.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I would of told PSG the same thing if I had one of the original Tundra's too.


You mean SBI... 
I doubt you would have told them to shove it though...most owners that had the T1 ended up with another SBI product because SBI refunded their money for the failed T1...can't beat that. The guy I got my cracked T1 from bought a Max Caddy and reports being VERY happy with it. 
FYI for those that don't know...Tundra is the "big box store" version of the Caddy...and Heatpro the same for the Max Caddy...the Caddys are made by PSG, the TII and HP by Drolet, both lines owned by the parent company SBI
(Stove Builder International)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> I am done with H-YC.  this has not worked as designed and I finally fixed the puffing problem with a reostat and relays but, it cut burn times to 7 hours.



Wow! Thought you had become a believer after the draft blower update.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> You mean SBI...
> I doubt you would have told them to shove it though...most owners that had the T1 ended up with another SBI product because SBI refunded their money for the failed T1...can't beat that. The guy I got my cracked T1 from bought a Max Caddy and reports being VERY happy with it.
> FYI for those that don't know...Tundra is the "big box store" version of the Caddy...and Heatpro the same for the Max Caddy...the Caddys are made by PSG, the TII and HP by Drolet, both lines owned by the parent company SBI
> (Stove Builder International)


I thought PSG was the parent company. I didn't realize SBI was.

You don't know me too well then.  You can have my money the first time. The second time, no way. IMHO there are plenty of other good products out there that I can choose from that will hopefully not screw me over.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> You can have my money the first time. The second time, no way. IMHO there are plenty of other good products out there that I can choose from that will hopefully not screw me over.


How is refunding your money "screwing you over"?
SBI built some mistakes into the T1...IMO they made it right (with everybody that had problems...as far as I've heard)
Every company builds a mistake now and again...its how they handle it that counts...HY-C should be recalling this current line of furnaces they are building IMO.
Only 1 real option for a wood furnace in this price range really (IMO)...thought that HY-C was gonna make it 2...but turns out...no.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Every company builds a mistake now and again...its how they handle it that counts....



To be fair. HY-C has been in constant contact with me working on a solution. Yes, I like to rant, but I have to give them some credit as they could of told me to pound sand by now. Going to give the 1500 a chance until all options have been tried. Fire Chief had a solid reputation for years and I hope they can get back to that point. I am willing to bet that all stove manufacturers have worked out issues by working with their customers.

While I am 1500% frustrated, I do have to give credit to the folks still responding, that includes everyone that has responded on this forum.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> You are a patient man @Mrpelletburner. I'd of told HY-C to shove that furnace where the sun doesn't shine after working with them for a week or so. Honestly, I would of told PSG the same thing if I had one of the original Tundra's too. And neither company would of gotten another cent of my hard earned money again. These companies shouldn't be using their customers as an R&D department.



I hear ya.  I'll do my own little rant related to this too.   

This is why I can't find myself to recommend a Tundra to anyone.....even though they have seemed to fix the issues.  It's not so much the cracking issues, but the whole ash pan/CO thing very early on.  This was a potentially deadly f-up which was discovered by the consumer, luckily before anyone was killed.....and they CONTINUED TO SELL THEM.  SBI used the buying public as a QA/QC program.  Not acceptable!      I understand SBI makes both the Tundra line as well as the Caddy line.  However, Caddy's are well built furnaces which were not rushed to market to fill a market void and are sold at hearth dealerships by people who are trained and educated in the industry.  Tundra's are cheap "knockoffs" sold at big box stores alongside feminine products by kids in high school and appear to have been rushed to market simply to fill a market void.  SBI should be ashamed of themselves for using the buying public as an R&D department, just like sloeffle said.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> How is refunding your money "screwing you over"?


My point is, these companies shouldn't be putting an inferior product out in the market place for consumers to buy to begin with. SBI and HYC arent new to the wood furnace game. With all of the CAD CAM and computer simulated testing methodologies that companies have available to them it shouldn't happen. This isn't Space X, they are building a steel box and blowing air over it.

They gave their customers refunds to save face. I do commend them for doing that.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Actually I couldn’t load the firebox anymore as the darn smoke shield wouldn’t close. That thing has to go, nothing bust a pain in the ass.
> 
> Last night at 11:30 loaded for the night
> View attachment 238129
> 
> 
> Reloading now at 6:14 am (zero heat, distribution lower no longer cycling!)
> View attachment 238130
> 
> 
> So, yes there are still hot embers but what is the point when the stove is no longer heating the house. Really really really tired of reloading every 5 f’n hours
> 
> Nothing I can do to adjust secondary, only can add or cut back on primary air.
> 
> Also, last night I had discovered I had a broken bolt on the back of the stove that was allowing extra air to be pulled into the back of the stove. Now I understand bolts can break, but WTF.
> 
> HY-C has spent time this week trying to diagnose, but I am going through wood at 2x the rate as I expect. I am just really at the end of my rope.
> 
> Broken bolt
> View attachment 238131
> 
> 
> High temp sealant to fix for now
> View attachment 238132



Here is the little over 12 hour burn for you @Mrpelletburner






What I'm left with after uncovering and taking forward coals.






Reload with 16-18 inch long, high as they can fit. Still room at back of stove. I save the longer logs for cold nights to utilize the while firebox.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> You don't know me too well then.  You can have my money the first time. The second time, no way. IMHO there are plenty of other good products out there that I can choose from that will hopefully not screw me over.



yep, it's not about "getting a refund" when you discover your brand new appliance is releasing CO into your home because of a faulty design.  It's deeper than that, it's the fact that a company rushes a furnace to market in the first place, without proper QC/QA, which has a faulty/potentially deadly design.

Very similar situation with Hy-C and these Fire Chiefs.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Reload with 16-18 inch long, high as they can fit. Still room at back of stove. I save the longer logs for cold nights to utilize the while firebox.



No smoke shield?


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> yep, it's not about "getting a refund" when you discover your brand new appliance is releasing CO into your home because of a faulty design.  It's deeper than that, it's the fact that a company rushes a furnace to market in the first place, without proper QC/QA, which has a faulty/potentially deadly design.
> 
> Very similar situation with Hy-C and these Fire Chiefs.



Could have also caused a fire. No excuse for SBI. They should have welded an air tight ash box right from the beginning. Not an ash cavern shared with the blower that can whip embers up a dusty hvac.

Only reason I bough one is because it was cheap, they fixed the safety problems related to ash box, no more cracking, and there really are no affordable options that offer the same value (gasification furnace wise anyway). Down the line I'll look at a kumma...


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> No smoke shield?



Nope I dont have issues with smoke spillage... you shouldn't ether at .1 draft lol.

On warm days I just make sure to get the first two splits in quick after that I can take my time because the logs take up air space and act like a smoke shield.

My chimney is only 16ft through room with no baro to btw.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> Could have also caused a fire. No excuse for SBI. They should have welded an air tight ash box right from the beginning. Not an ash cavern shared with the blower that can whip embers up a dusty hvac.
> 
> Only reason I bough one is because it was cheap, they fixed the safety problems related to ash box, no more cracking, and there really are no affordable options that offer the same value (gasification furnace wise anyway). Down the line I'll look at a kumma...




Like I said, it appears they fixed the issues, it's just the whole CO thing and how they reacted to it really put a bad taste into my mouth about them as a company, that's all.    

Sounds like yours is really working out great for you though.  That's awesome.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> Like I said, it appears they fixed the issues, it's just the whole CO thing and how they reacted to it really put a bad taste into my mouth about them as a company, that's all.
> 
> Sounds like yours is really working out great for you though.  That's awesome.



Yes I'm very pleased so far.  No reason to work the unit very hard ether. 

Having a properly sized furnace for the house is a big part of being happy with the results, I'd hate having to play catchup all the time lol.

Hoping the snail mail has the ICM326 in the mail this upcoming week. Been anticipating this project for the last month.


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Wow! Thought you had become a believer after the draft blower update.



I continued to have problems on days that were 30-40 degrees.  I could only load enough for a couple hours or make the house 80 degrees and load when it got cold.  If I tried to load full and set a thermostat if would puff every time. 

I added a power source through a relay with a reostat and slowed the motor way down to give it enough air to burn off the gasses.  Then when there is a call for heat it bypasses the reostat and runs full speed.  It’s working decent now, not one puff since but, it’s 20 outside with 25 mph winds today and I have to load 3-4 times a day.  I’m just done after this season.  I’ll put it out in the shop and modify the piece of chit to burn with a natural draft.  It’s basically $150 of scrap steel welded together that costs $1500.   I’ll get my money out of it after I take a torch and welder to it and make it work like a non epa furnace.

Oh, and the last response I got from H-YC was trying to point out something else wrong with the install.  I’m done even communicating because they still will not offficially admit a design issue and get rid of these things.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> Yes I'm very pleased so far.  No reason to work the unit very hard ether.
> 
> Having a properly sized furnace for the house is a big part of being happy with the results, I'd hate having to play catchup all the time lol.
> 
> Hoping the snail mail has the ICM326 in the mail this upcoming week. Been anticipating this project for the last month.



As you should be.  Sounds like your Tundra is heating your place better than our Kuuma is heating our place in below zero weather.  However, I'm guessing I have quite a bit more heat load than you do too.  In the past I have had to work the Kuuma pretty good when it got below zero for extended periods of time to keep the house 72-73.  The issue was, like you mentioned, having to play catch up when the house temp dropped in between loadings.   Too much heat loss in below zero temps to maintain house temp when fire was dying out.  We'll see how it does this year once it gets really cold (if it does at all.....LOL).  All of my little tweaks of my blower speed, OAK I added, etc seem to be really accumulating and coming together nicely this year, as the house has been much easier to heat this year than in years past.  The downside is it seems like I can't maintain a fire unless outside temps are consistently below 20° or so (it's been 26°-28° and cloudy here for the last 15+ hours and I'm letting the small morning fire die out once again, as it's 76° in here).  It's showing up in wood usage as well.  Wood usage up to and including December for this heating season vs last year:

This season:
HDD's: 3,005
LBS wood burned: 6,097

Last Season:
HDD's: 2,912
LBS wood burned: 6,672

The speed controller should definitely make your system even better.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

We have been 5 to 22 degrees the last couple days... if I let the stove take off, I can keep the house at 74-76, however I would compound the price I pay in wood.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> As you should be.  Sounds like your Tundra, in below zero weather, is heating your place better than our Kuuma is heating our place.  However, I'm guessing I have quite a bit more heat load than you do too.  In the past I have had to work the Kuuma pretty good when it got below zero for extended periods of time to keep the house 72-73.  The issue was, like you mentioned, having to play catch up when the house temp dropped in between loadings.   Too much heat loss in below zero temps to maintain house temp when fire was dying out.  We'll see how it does this year once it gets really cold (if it does at all.....LOL).  All of my little tweaks of my blower speed, OAK I added, etc seem to be really accumulating and coming together nicely this year, as the house has been much easier to heat this year than in years past.  The downside is it seems like I can't maintain a fire unless outside temps are consistently below 20° or so (it's been 26°-28° and cloudy here for the last 15+ hours and I'm letting the small morning fire die out once again, as it's 76° in here).  It's showing up in wood usage as well.  Wood usage up to and including December for this heating season vs last year:
> 
> This season:
> HDD's: 3,005
> LBS wood burned: 6,097
> 
> Last Season:
> HDD's: 2,912
> LBS wood burned: 6,672
> 
> The speed controller should definitely make your system even better.



Oh wow your really ontop of things. Lol You got a scale beside your furnace? I think that's kinda neat comparing pounds burn, gives a good overall look at how things are working.

Also regarding our outside temps up here this year have been absolutely nuts. It shouldn't be this warm, but I'm not complaining. Daytime high today is 22f. Had a couple 30f days to earlier this week. Way above seasonal... we should be sitting at daytime high of (-13f to give you a rough idea how it was last winter at this time.

When it gets cold to maintain my burn times, I just change from my subpar elm, and mix in 3 year old Oak splits works perfectly.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> We have been 5 to 22 degrees the last couple days... if I let the stove take off, I can keep the house at 74-76, however I would compound the price I pay in wood.



wow, you have to buy wood on top of it?  damn.  I suppose your LP prices, being on the east coast, are crazy high.  If you had our LP prices you may be better off burning LP than burning wood in that furnace. 




Case1030 said:


> Oh wow your really ontop of things. Lol You got a scale beside your furnace? I think that's kinda neat comparing pounds burn, gives a good overall look at how things are working.



if you only knew.....right @brenndatomu  and @STIHLY DAN 

yeah, that's how I figure my loadings.  I have a Home Depot storage bin sitting on a platform scale right in between my wood rack and furnace.  I throw the pieces from the wood rack into the bin until I see the weight I want to load for for the time period and outside temp and then slide it off the scale next to the door of the Kuuma.  I've been shooting for about 2 - 2.5 lbs/HDD per day.  Obviously heat loss is not linear, so that 2 - 2.5lbs/HDD per day is just a guide.  When warmer it's closer to 2lbs/HDD (maybe even under) and when colder it's closer to 2.5lbs/HDD.  When really cold I'm probably going to be closer to 2.5 - 3lbs/HDD. 

I have a spreadsheet I use to keep records of wood/LP usage.  I have a minute timer on my LP furnace. 

See, OCD tenancies can be a benefit if you can harness them and put them to work FOR you.       



Case1030 said:


> Also regarding our outside temps up here this year have been absolutely nuts. It shouldn't be this warm, but I'm not complaining. Daytime high today is 22f. Had a couple 30f days to earlier this week. Way above seasonal... we should be sitting at daytime high of (-13f to give you a rough idea how it was last winter at this time.



How far north are you in Manitoba?


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> wow, you have to buy wood on top of it?  damn.  I suppose your LP prices, being on the east coast, are crazy high.  If you had our LP prices you may be better off burning LP than burning wood in that furnace.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you only knew.....right @brenndatomu  and @STIHLY DAN
> 
> yeah, that's how I figure my loadings.  I have a Home Depot storage bin sitting on a platform scale right in between my wood rack and furnace.  I throw the pieces from the wood rack into the bin until I see the weight I want to load for for the time period and outside temp and then slide it off the scale next to the door of the Kuuma.  I've been shooting for about 2 - 2.5 lbs/HDD per day.  Obviously heat loss is not linear, so that 2 - 2.5lbs/HDD per day is just a guide.  When warmer it's closer to 2lbs/HDD (maybe even under) and when colder it's closer to 2.5lbs/HDD.  When really cold I'm probably going to be closer to 2.5 - 3lbs/HDD.
> 
> I have a spreadsheet I use to keep records of wood/LP usage.  I have a minute timer on my LP furnace.
> 
> See, OCD tenancies can be a benefit if you can harness them and put them to work FOR you.
> 
> 
> 
> How far north are you in Manitoba?



Southern section of Manitoba, about 20 mins north of Winnipeg. How about yourself?

Looks like we are getting some nice weather starting Thursday. 
	

		
			
		

		
	






That's in fahrenheit ^


----------



## brenndatomu

Not to stir crap up here...but I wanted to comment on the whole Tundra CO thing from earlier...I saw the comments earlier, but we were leaving so I didn't have time to reply.
IMO that whole thing with the Tundra ash pan issue was COMPLETELY blown out of proportion...did anybody actually have an issue with one putting any real amount of CO in the house? I know there was a person or two that said their CO alarm went off...but I'm talking like actually had a CO problem that affected someone in the house? I never heard of anybody.
And I really really really really doubt it ever would or could...for several reasons...
1. The ash pan setup on the original T1 design was no different than many many current model wood stoves...just a plug that you pop out and a metal pan underneath that holds the ashes until you take them out...no more, no less. There are TONS of stoves that have this SAME setup...but nobody is screaming bloody murder on those! The only difference is that the Tundra has a larger blower and is hooked up to ductwork...meh, 6 of one, half dozen of the other to me...either way its in the house.
2. While it is true that you could have some small still burning coals in the ashes...I will not buy the argument that they could make enough CO to hurt anybody...I mean have you seen the ash hole in these things?! You'd really have to work hard to get any amount of coals forced through that hole...and then it will be small pieces if you do...nothing that will last very long...plus they will be covered in ashes...more likely to be smothered out than anything, IMO. Not enough CO producing potential to even talk about, let alone be recall worthy. I think Drolet just made the updated ashpan cubbys to stifle the hub-bub about it, not because they actually thought that there was a real problem that needed fixed...and I gotta agree. I never put the updated ash pan kit in...of course I never bothered with that stupid setup anyways...easier/simpler/faster to just dig the ashes directly out of the firebox.
About the only real issue I could see with the original ash drawer setup was the _small_ chance you could have a little fine ash dust get blown into the house...not a lot, just a little. The pan was in its own compartment, but it was not completely "sealed" per say...the update consisted of a "sealed" sleeve that went into the original compartment, and then a new slightly smaller pan too (IIRC)
The later T1's they just welded the compartment seams.

If I were going to point any fingers at SBI on the T1's, it would be them trying to blame the crack issues on customers "overfiring" the furnaces...bull crap! My sisters T1 has had the temp controller (and my DIY front firebox heat shield kit) on it since the beginning and it is starting to crack anyways...fortunately hers still has the lifetime full firebox warranty, not the later "welds" warranty.

I do give credit to HY-C for working with people to try to get things sorted out...but by their responses and ideas for things to try... it is plain to me that they couldn't buy a clue if they won the lottery...and therefore these things will never work right. Honestly just looking at them, its not a great design...not like the Kuuma...that's 2/3's of their "secret sauce" a great firebox design...then the computer control is the other 1/3.
And since I brought up the Kuuma...these things aren't perfect either...nothing that I will mention in open forum...but I found a safety issue on the VF100 that Lamppa just blew off when I brought it up...kinda rubbed my fur the wrong way. They said that they have never had that particular part fail in that way, so its not a problem...my point was that it COULD fail in that way and then there could be a _real problem_ for some unfortunate person. I haven't invested the time to figure out how exactly to resolve the issue, but I think it would be simple to remedy...so I'm not sure why the reluctance to deal with the issue...I know what they _told_ me the reason was, but I ain't buying it.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> Not to stir crap up here...but I wanted to comment on the whole Tundra CO thing from earlier...I saw the comments earlier, but we were leaving so I didn't have time to reply.
> IMO that whole thing with the Tundra ash pan issue was COMPLETELY blown out of proportion...did anybody actually have an issue with one putting any real amount of CO in the house? I know there was a person or two that said their CO alarm went off...but I'm talking like actually had a CO problem that affected someone in the house? I never heard of anybody.
> And I really really really really doubt it ever would or could...for several reasons...
> 1. The ash pan setup on the original T1 design was no different than many many current model wood stoves...just a plug that you pop out and a metal pan underneath that holds the ashes until you take them out...no more, no less. There are TONS of stoves that have this SAME setup...but nobody is screaming bloody murder on those! The only difference is that the Tundra has a larger blower and is hooked up to ductwork...meh, 6 of one, half dozen of the other to me...either way its in the house.
> 2. While it is true that you could have some small still burning coals in the ashes...I will not buy the argument that they could make enough CO to hurt anybody...I mean have you seen the ash hole in these things?! You'd really have to work hard to get any amount of coals forced through that hole...and then it will be small pieces if you do...nothing that will last very long...plus they will be covered in ashes...more likely to be smothered out than anything, IMO. Not enough CO producing potential to even talk about, let alone be recall worthy. I think Drolet just made the updated ashpan cubbys to stifle the hub-bub about it, not because they actually thought that there was a real problem that needed fixed...and I gotta agree. I never put the updated ash pan kit in...of course I never bothered with that stupid setup anyways...easier/simpler/faster to just dig the ashes directly out of the firebox.
> About the only real issue I could see with the original ash drawer setup was the _small_ chance you could have a little fine ash dust get blown into the house...not a lot, just a little. The pan was in its own compartment, but it was not completely "sealed" per say...the update consisted of a "sealed" sleeve that went into the original compartment, and then a new slightly smaller pan too (IIRC)
> The later T1's they just welded the compartment seams.
> 
> If I were going to point any fingers at SBI on the T1's, it would be them trying to blame the crack issues on customers "overfiring" the furnaces...bull crap! My sisters T1 has had the temp controller (and my DIY front firebox heat shield kit) on it since the beginning and it is starting to crack anyways...fortunately hers still has the lifetime full firebox warranty, not the later "welds" warranty.
> 
> I do give credit to HY-C for working with people to try to get things sorted out...but by their responses and ideas for things to try... it is plain to me that they couldn't buy a clue if they won the lottery...and therefore these things will never work right. Honestly just looking at them, its not a great design...not like the Kuuma...that's 2/3's of their "secret sauce" a great firebox design...then the computer control is the other 1/3.
> And since I brought up the Kuuma...these things aren't perfect either...nothing that I will mention in open forum...but I found a safety issue on the VF100 that Lamppa just blew off when I brought it up...kinda rubbed my fur the wrong way. They said that they have never had that particular part fail in that way, so its not a problem...my point was that it COULD fail in that way and then there could be a _real problem_ for some unfortunate person. I haven't invested the time to figure out how exactly to resolve the issue, but I think it would be simple to remedy...so I'm not sure why the reluctance to deal with the issue...I know what they _told_ me the reason was, but I ain't buying it.



Your probably right, I have no clue how large the space was in the ash pan. I dont think it would be very likely for a spark or ember to make it past (I like to think anything is possible for safety sake). The idea of ash making it's way into the ducts would be the main reason to seal it. Also air blowing on coals makes alot a heat that would burn the ash pan paint making a foul smell at the most. 

I'm just happy they have it sealed now, and think every woodburning appliance should be sealed for piece of mind.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Southern section of Manitoba, about 20 mins north of Winnipeg.



Manitoba... wasn’t that a big location for Ice Road Truckers? 

Bet you have some good snowmobiling up that way. We haven’t had a good snowmobiling season in years, just no snow.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Ok today I removed the smoke shield as I wanted to test really loading the stove.

Loaded at 12:50 and it took about an hour or so, but the house reached 75 degrees with an outside temp of 18.






At 6 pm the stove started to cycle and the house temp started to drop. So I decided to open her up, snap a photo and reload.






Flue temps reached 1,000 degrees and the draft measured 0.2” WC.

I am no expert, but it still feels as if the fuel doesn’t really last.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Manitoba... wasn’t that a big location for Ice Road Truckers?
> 
> Bet you have some good snowmobiling up that way. We haven’t had a good snowmobiling season in years, just no snow.



Not to sure about ice road truckers haven't actually sat down to give that show a good watch.

Speaking of snowmobiling just took out of storage today. Still not enough snow to play hard though.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Ok today I removed the smoke shield as I wanted to test really loading the stove.
> 
> Loaded at 12:50 and it took about an hour or so, but the house reached 75 degrees with an outside temp of 18.
> 
> View attachment 238184
> 
> 
> At 6 pm the stove started to cycle and the house temp started to drop. So I decided to open her up, snap a photo and reload.
> 
> View attachment 238185
> 
> 
> Flue temps reached 1,000 degrees and the draft measured 0.2” WC.
> 
> I am no expert, but it still feels as if the fuel doesn’t really last.



On larger loads you should be able to turn your primary air down. PITA for you to play with but worth a try.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> On larger loads you should be able to turn your primary air down. PITA for you to play with.



Yup... good old blue painters tape. This allowed the fire to take off, didn’t want to touch it once it got going as I wanted to get a baseline. Will close off ½ of the opening in a couple hours.






Maybe in the end I could install some controller to control the opening?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yup... good old blue painters tape. This allowed the fire to take off, didn’t want to touch it once it got going as I wanted to get a baseline. Will close off ½ of the opening in a couple hours.
> 
> View attachment 238189
> 
> 
> Maybe in the end I could install some controller to control the opening?



Yeah honestly I think you would be better off with a motor damper. 

If you could unbolt that motor and install a flap door you might get somewhere. The power for that induction fan should be able to power the damper door. You could also put stove pipe manual damper in to fine tune your draft aswell.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Flue temps reached 1,000 degrees and the draft measured 0.2” WC


That's just nuts.
Oh, and I meant to reply to your post about the temp and WC measurement being predictable...yes, it is all tied together.
Once you know what draft your chimney pulls at a given temp...you can know what one or the other will be by having either one of the measurements.
This is assuming that there is no other factors involved....a baro, stove door or damper open vs closed, etc.
Its kinda like driving a stick shift car...once you know the RPM that you are turning in 5th gear at a given MPH...you can figure out one with just having the other...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> Southern section of Manitoba, about 20 mins north of Winnipeg. How about yourself?
> 
> Looks like we are getting some nice weather starting Thursday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 238179
> 
> 
> That's in fahrenheit ^



   Now that's cold! 

We will be getting cold (well, a bit chilly to you guys up there   ) next weekend.  

I think the coldest it's ever been here in the past 4-5 years was -21°.  We normally are good for one or two cold snaps a winter.  Have not had one yet this winter though.  I'm in the Wisconsin Dells, area of WI....kinda south-central WI.   



brenndatomu said:


> Not to stir crap up here...



  

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers!    You could be right, but I do remember reading about someone's meter going off and it being traced to that ashpan thing and after it was fixed the meter stopped going off.  I have a couple CO meters and I can tell you if they go off there's too much CO in the house for my taste.  Even if the alarm doesn't go off, doesn't mean there isn't CO being sent into the house by that design.  The alarm being triggered solely by that ashpan design is not cool, IMO anyway.    Heck, it's not safe to store ashes inside the house either because of that CO danger.

When it's cold out and I load on a nice healthy bed o' coals, I can get some smoke spillage, as I removed the smoke baffle.  One of my meters is right near one of our heat registers, on purpose.  This one will record the max ppm of CO it senses and displays it.  The most I've seen is 11ppm.  I check it quite frequently during winter and reset it when it does register something.  I've even checked it before loading, saw it was '0', loaded the furnace where I did have some smoke spillage and then came back to check it a bit later to find it reading something.  Looking at my manual, the alarm goes off when it reaches a level of 70ppm.          

Anyway, didn't mean stir things up.....the issue may have been blown out of proportion, however, it was still an "issue", IMO, should have been taken care of sooner than what it was.

Speaking of CO and this Hy-C....Mrpelletburner, do you have a CO meter???  I probably would.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Think I have 4 or 5 CO detectors installed.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers!


Feathers are preened and proper...its all good!   


Mrpelletburner said:


> Think I have 4 or 5 CO detectors installed.



Good man!


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Ok today I removed the smoke shield as I wanted to test really loading the stove.
> 
> Loaded at 12:50 and it took about an hour or so, but the house reached 75 degrees with an outside temp of 18.
> 
> View attachment 238184
> 
> 
> At 6 pm the stove started to cycle and the house temp started to drop. So I decided to open her up, snap a photo and reload.
> 
> View attachment 238185
> 
> 
> Flue temps reached 1,000 degrees and the draft measured 0.2” WC.
> 
> I am no expert, but it still feels as if the fuel doesn’t really last.



1000 - yikes. Your wood is being freight trained right up your chimney. I would consider unplugging your draft fan for a load.


----------



## Case1030

maple1 said:


> 1000 - yikes. Your wood is being freight trained right up your chimney. I would consider unplugging your draft fan for a load.



I'm pretty sure that's without his draft fan kicking in, also with half the primary taped off.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> I'm pretty sure that's without his draft fan kicking in.



Yup... had the draft blower on for the first 15 mins to help the load catch.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> 1000 - yikes. Your wood is being freight trained right up your chimney. I would consider unplugging your draft fan for a load.



This and the draft is what I am waiting for HY-C to solve. They also have stated I should not have 1,000 flue temps, not even close, more 400-500. So if they can figure out why all my heat is going up the flue, perhaps they can solve the short burn times. I think by cutting off primary air and seeing an impact, we can rule out air entering from another inlet. Also the front to back triangle burn should tell us the stove is burning the fuel correctly.

Since I am still newer and never owning a correctly functioning stove, I am not sure how a stove should burn. For you 12+ hour guys, do you ever have to engage the draft blower? Do you use the thermostat to let the stove idle until it calls for heat? From the start I have let the stove catch and go until there is nothing left.


----------



## woodey

[QUOTE="JRHAWK9, post: 2326791






  I have a Home Depot storage bin sitting on a platform scale right in between my wood rack and furnace.  I throw the pieces from the wood rack into the bin until I see the weight I want to load for for the time period and outside temp and then slide it off the scale next to the door of the Kuuma. 

I have a spreadsheet I use to keep records of wood/LP usage.  I have a minute timer on my LP furnace.

See, OCD tenancies can be a benefit if you can harness them




Good to see that you have the OCD issues harnessed in.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> This and the draft is what I am waiting for HY-C to solve. They also have stated I should not have 1,000 flue temps, not even close, more 400-500. So if they can figure out why all my heat is going up the flue, perhaps they can solve the short burn times. I think by cutting off primary air and seeing an impact, we can rule out air entering from another inlet. Also the front to back triangle burn should tell us the stove is burning the fuel correctly.
> 
> Since I am still newer and never owning a correctly functioning stove, I am not sure how a stove should burn. For you 12+ hour guys, do you ever have to engage the draft blower? Do you use the thermostat to let the stove idle until it calls for heat? From the start I have let the stove catch and go until there is nothing left.



Most of the high efficiency stoves don't use blowers. For instance the Kumma and Tundra don't use a blower. 

Whenever I think of blowers on a stove or furnace. I think of a coal unit or the guy trying to burn green wood. It's not really practical when burning proper seasoned wood.

Especially with the amount of chimney draft you have, it's comparable to having a blower on 24/7 or power exhaust.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> This and the draft is what I am waiting for HY-C to solve. They also have stated I should not have 1,000 flue temps, not even close, more 400-500. So if they can figure out why all my heat is going up the flue, perhaps they can solve the short burn times. I think by cutting off primary air and seeing an impact, we can rule out air entering from another inlet. Also the front to back triangle burn should tell us the stove is burning the fuel correctly.
> 
> Since I am still newer and never owning a correctly functioning stove, I am not sure how a stove should burn. For you 12+ hour guys, do you ever have to engage the draft blower? Do you use the thermostat to let the stove idle until it calls for heat? From the start I have let the stove catch and go until there is nothing left.



You will be hard pressed to find an indoor induction blower furnace capable of burn times in the 12 hour range. The OWB guys with blowers can get 24 hours but they are loading 4ft logs in there units.


----------



## JRHAWK9

woodey said:


> Good to see that you have the OCD issues harnessed in.





Never said harnessed in....just that I'm using them to my benefit.      Without them, I wouldn't have things working as well as they are.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Most of the high efficiency stoves don't use blowers.


NONE of the high efficiency stoves use forced draft...that I know of. None available in this country anyways.
As I have stated here before...I HATE a forced draft stove...based on past experience.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> NONE of the high efficiency stoves use forced draft...that I know of. None available in this country anyways.
> As I have stated here before...I HATE a forced draft stove...based on past experience.



Believe the goal is to run the stove without needed the draft blower kicking in?

BTW what happens when the thermostat calls for heat on one of these other stoves? Does a flap open to allow more primary air?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Believe the goal is to run the stove without needed the draft blower kicking in?
> 
> BTW what happens when the thermostat calls for heat on one of these other stoves? Does a flap open to allow more primary air?



Yeah that's the idea. Also with your draft being so high I'd try to figure out a way to cut your secondary air at least in half to compensate for the high draft or put a flue damper in.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Does a flap open to allow more primary air?


Exactly...that's why its so important to have the chimney draft tightly controlled...its makes a big difference on how much air I being pulled through the firebox! It does the same on forced draft units too...whether or not HY-C realizes it, or wants to admit it...
Most company's want the chimney draft to be between -0.04" and -0.06" WC...definitely no more than that. Yukon specs 0.03"...period.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> This and the draft is what I am waiting for HY-C to solve. They also have stated I should not have 1,000 flue temps, not even close, more 400-500. So if they can figure out why all my heat is going up the flue, perhaps they can solve the short burn times. I think by cutting off primary air and seeing an impact, we can rule out air entering from another inlet. Also the front to back triangle burn should tell us the stove is burning the fuel correctly.
> 
> Since I am still newer and never owning a correctly functioning stove, I am not sure how a stove should burn. For you 12+ hour guys, do you ever have to engage the draft blower? Do you use the thermostat to let the stove idle until it calls for heat? From the start I have let the stove catch and go until there is nothing left.



I find it pretty mind boggling they can't connect overdraft to high flue temps & short burn times.


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> I find it pretty mind boggling they can't connect overdraft to high flue temps & short burn times.



I'm guessing they do know this, however seeing the furnace is not designed properly they are simply flying by the seat of their pants trying to come up with the perfect combination of bull$hit in order to try to make the owner happy.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> I'm guessing they do know this, however seeing the furnace is not designed properly they are simply flying by the seat of their pants trying to come up with the perfect combination of bull$hit in order to try to make the owner happy.


That and they know that they don't burn clean enough to use a baro and not make creosote.


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yup... good old blue painters tape. This allowed the fire to take off, didn’t want to touch it once it got going as I wanted to get a baseline. Will close off ½ of the opening in a couple hours.
> 
> View attachment 238189
> 
> 
> Maybe in the end I could install some controller to control the opening?



If you haven't yet - I think I would go right to the end of the spectrum, tape that hole completely over, and try that.

If you still have all your heat going up the flue and short burn times - then there are even deeper problems (hard to believe) with air getting in somewhere else it shouldn't be.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

maple1 said:


> If you haven't yet - I think I would go right to the end of the spectrum, tape that hole completely over, and try that.
> 
> If you still have all your heat going up the flue and short burn times - then there are even deeper problems (hard to believe) with air getting in somewhere else it shouldn't be.



I did tape off the opening and the stove temp dropped, couldn’t even heat the plenum. told HY-C suggested closing off the air 1/16th at a time. Would be helpful if the stove had a glass door.


----------



## maple1

OK. Maybe you posted earlier & I missed it.

1/16 at a time, eh? That is evidence right there how touchy having too much draft is. Then with changing draft conditions (like, say if the wind blows), you'd need to be changing the air opening all the time.

They are completely & cluelessly off the mark and chasing wild gooses, taking you along for the ride while at it - man, you have more patience that I ever would have with this. So kudos for that - if it helps.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Didn’t hear from HY-C today, however they are probably still digging out from the snow.

Anyways, not necessarily a breakthrough but small progress.

Loaded at 4:20 on a nice 3” bed of hot embers.






It’s 9:30 and the stove is still providing some great heat and will probably go for at least an hour more, at least.






Is that good or am I now just making myself crazy?

Now and a big now... it’s not 10 degrees outside. It’s 20 and the house has been able to maintain 73 degrees (first floor).

Last detail... flue temp is a steady 550 degrees.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Is that good or am I now just making myself crazy?


Well if that don't make ya crazy, this should!  
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/firechief-1700.164366/page-2#post-2327605


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Well if that don't make ya crazy, this should!
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/firechief-1700.164366/page-2#post-2327605



Yea I am all over that one also.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Calling all experts, looking for feedback besides the stove is junk.

Think anyone following this thread knows I am seeing high flue temps. What have also noticed is while I am seeing high flue temps the upper front of the stove remains at much lower temps  until at least an hour after loading. I would assume that the heat from the fire would have to travel from the back of the stove to the front and into that area above the fire box. I would assume the result would be a balance between the flue temp and the front of the stove, but that is not the case. 

Here is a photo of where you can clearly see the secondary burn is only at the far rear of the stove.







I am assuming the secondary burn is only at the rear of the stove because the front of the stove is not hot enough to achieve a secondary burn. However that heat is somehow making its way to the flue? 

Just something seems off (please no stove jokes). So you guys have worked with stoves long enough to be able to troubleshoot. Any thoughts to the high flue temps and low temps front of the stove?

I did check to make sure the brick was pushed all the way back.


----------



## brenndatomu

Most stoves get their air from the front, and burn from the front...this one gets its air from the back, no?
Plus you can't really tell what happens in there with the door closed...the split second you open the door things change...


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Calling all experts, looking for feedback besides the stove is junk.
> 
> Think anyone following this thread knows I am seeing high flue temps. What have also noticed is while I am seeing high flue temps the upper front of the stove remains at much lower temps  until at least an hour after loading. I would assume that the heat from the fire would have to travel from the back of the stove to the front and into that area above the fire box. I would assume the result would be a balance between the flue temp and the front of the stove, but that is not the case.
> 
> Here is a photo of where you can clearly see the secondary burn is only at the far rear of the stove.
> 
> View attachment 238380
> 
> 
> I am assuming the secondary burn is only at the rear of the stove because the front of the stove is not hot enough to achieve a secondary burn. However that heat is somehow making its way to the flue?
> 
> Just something seems off (please no stove jokes). So you guys have worked with stoves long enough to be able to troubleshoot. Any thoughts to the high flue temps and low temps front of the stove?
> 
> I did check to make sure the brick was pushed all the way back.



Well to put it this way... your draft is anywhere from 0.1-0.2 and your slowly reducing your primary air.

But at the same time your secondarys are going to be like a jetstream of oxygen still feeding the fire at that current draft.

Your going to have to shut down the secondary air in half if you want to keep that heat in your stove.

That's my take on the situation and I stand by it... like I said before you could eliminate that issue all together with a flue damper if you can't find a way to cut that secondary air.

Not trying to be a buzzkill here, but there has been alot of advice and much of it is being repeated. Are you come to us for advice or your buddies over at HYC who are feeding you horse chit by the buckets?


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Calling all experts, looking for feedback besides the stove is junk.
> 
> Think anyone following this thread knows I am seeing high flue temps. What have also noticed is while I am seeing high flue temps the upper front of the stove remains at much lower temps  until at least an hour after loading. I would assume that the heat from the fire would have to travel from the back of the stove to the front and into that area above the fire box. I would assume the result would be a balance between the flue temp and the front of the stove, but that is not the case.
> 
> Here is a photo of where you can clearly see the secondary burn is only at the far rear of the stove.
> 
> View attachment 238380
> 
> 
> I am assuming the secondary burn is only at the rear of the stove because the front of the stove is not hot enough to achieve a secondary burn. However that heat is somehow making its way to the flue?
> 
> Just something seems off (please no stove jokes). So you guys have worked with stoves long enough to be able to troubleshoot. Any thoughts to the high flue temps and low temps front of the stove?
> 
> I did check to make sure the brick was pushed all the way back.



I think trying to give accurate or semi-accurate feedback on that would require complete knowledge of where all the air flows through the entire stove. Complete path of all of it, from entrances, to the flue exit. Thinking likely not many of us know that without being with one & thoroughly inspecting?

But then you add in the wild card that whatever is going through it is going a mile a minute (if the intake is unrestricted, with your overdraft situation) - that might skew things. Example - I think when my boiler is overdrafting (like, from a stuck barometric damper), the incoming air has the effect of sucking the secondary flame further downstream than normal. Kinda sorta.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> feeding you horse chit by the buckets


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Most stoves get their air from the front, and burn from the front...this one gets its air from the back, no?
> Plus you can't really tell what happens in there with the door closed...the split second you open the door things change...



Primary air openings supplied in the front, just below the front door opening.

Secondary air is supplied via the rear of the stove.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Not trying to be a buzzkill here, but there has been alot of advice and much of it is being repeated. Are you come to us for advice or your buddies over at HYC who are feeding you horse chit by the buckets?



I have had a lot of calls/email exchanges with HY-C, mostly providing data on a 10 hour and 4 hour burn time test. They have not come back with any suggestions, just trying to capture data so they can compare (I think).

I am turning to the folks of this forum as several here have had different stoves, each with different issues. Most, if not all suggestions, have been tried and results reported back to the person that provided the suggestion. 

Trying to focus in on the high flue temps, no matter the draft. Just seems odd that flue has crazy high temps where the front of the stove is cooler (smoke shield removed). 

Simply can’t swing 4K on another stove right now.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Plus you can't really tell what happens in there with the door closed...the split second you open the door things change...



True... but see where the secondary air supply tube has a black burn mark towards the back where the flame is? While I am not sure what happens when the door closes, that black marking tells me the heat is concentrated in that area. Now when the stove needs to be reloaded, that secondary air tube has that clean burn look.


----------



## brenndatomu

Remember, heat transfer takes time...its like playing hot potato...everything is fine as long as you don't hold onto that thing very long.
Might be the same way with the stove too...the fire is in the back because thats where the air comes in (secondary) and then the draft speed is so high if pulls the fire around the front edge of the baffle so fast an hard that the front of the stove takes a while to heat up.

Oh, by the way, the Tundra II is only $2500...and less if you catch a sale.
https://myfireplaceproducts.com/us_en/drolet-tundra-ii-wood-furnace-df02001 free shipping too


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> that black marking tells me the heat is concentrated in that area.


Black mark means cold dirty burn...the lighter the color the hotter and cleaner the fire is there.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Primary air openings supplied in the front, just below the front door opening.
> 
> Secondary air is supplied via the rear of the stove.



I guess you have somthing to work with now...


Mrpelletburner said:


> I have had a lot of calls/email exchanges with HY-C, mostly providing data on a 10 hour and 4 hour burn time test. They have not come back with any suggestions, just trying to capture data so they can compare (I think).
> 
> I am turning to the folks of this forum as several here have had different stoves, each with different issues. Most, if not all suggestions, have been tried and results reported back to the person that provided the suggestion.
> 
> Trying to focus in on the high flue temps, no matter the draft. Just seems odd that flue has crazy high temps where the front of the stove is cooler (smoke shield removed).
> 
> Simply can’t swing 4K on another stove right now.



A manual flue damper costs $8... no one is telling you to go out and spend 4k on a new stove. Most of us are just asking you to address the elephant in the room (flue draft).

If you put a simple damper in today and get back to me saying your flue is now 400-450f I'd call that a success. (Use your Dwyer to help calibrate your draft, simple simple!).

From there you can rig a tempurature controller with a timer for load and go startups using your blower fan. Once the fire is established the blower wont turn on until you reload.

Obviously their are limitations to your stove but let's give it a fair shot... try the suggestions, it's not going to break your bank.


----------



## maple1

Case1030 said:


> I guess you have somthing to work with now...
> 
> 
> A manual flue damper costs $8... no one is telling you to go out and spend 4k on a new stove. Most of us are just asking you to address the elephant in the room (flue draft).
> 
> If you put a simple damper in today and get back to me saying your flue is now 400-450f I'd call that a success. (Use your Dwyer to help calibrate your draft, simple simple!).
> 
> From there you can rig a tempurature controller with a timer for load and go startups using your blower fan. Once the fire is established the blower wont turn on until you reload.
> 
> Obviously their are limitations to your stove but let's give it a fair shot... try the suggestions, it's not going to break your bank.



What if adding a damper & getting the draft in spec, kills the secondary burn & starts making creosote?


----------



## Case1030

maple1 said:


> What if adding a damper & getting the draft in spec, kills the secondary burn & starts making creosote?



The idea isn't to kill the draft completely, just to slow it down to the manufacturers specification. Visual check of the chimney before and after damper will help determine if more draft is needed for combustion.

That's kinda like saying you will get creosote if you have a 16ft chimney opposed to 28ft. You shouldn't need 0.1- 0.2 draft to get a clean burn that unrealistic.

I personally wouldn't add a barometric if HYC doesnt think it burns clean enough to install one. But a manual damper isnt going to cool the exhaust.


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> Oh, by the way, the Tundra II is only $2500...and less if you catch a sale.
> https://myfireplaceproducts.com/us_en/drolet-tundra-ii-wood-furnace-df02001 free shipping too


And another $100 gets you semi automated with the aftermarket temp and speed control hack that has been proven to work oh so well on these things! (and others)


----------



## Case1030

From the furnace manual itself...


----------



## laynes69

Mrpelletburner said:


> Trying to focus in on the high flue temps, no matter the draft. Just seems odd that flue has crazy high temps where the front of the stove is cooler (smoke shield removed).



Draft absolutely affects flue temps. You slow draft, the furnace picks up more heat and less goes up the flue. One other thing to remember, firecheifs have overall lower efficiencies than just about all those listed in the EPA list. That also translates in higher flue temps. Plus..there's really no heat exchanger either, compared to other models.

Personally....I would reduce draft. Too much air kills secondary combustion and disrupts primary. If the furnace can't operate at .05" of water with the draft blower flap open and not maintain combustion on seasoned wood, it just won't work period.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> From the furnace manual itself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 238402



I guess that statement is a requirement by some agency, if you want to sell a wood stove.


----------



## JRHAWK9

OK, pet peeve here.......what you have and what we all have here are called wood furnaces, not stoves.    Stoves are completely different and they also have a different area on this forum.  They also have different EPA certifications.  It's like car vs truck.



Mrpelletburner said:


> I guess that statement is a requirement by some agency, if you want to sell a wood stove.



This is true, but they are supposed to be ran according to those same specs in which is was tested when it somehow met the certification.



laynes69 said:


> One other thing to remember, firecheifs have overall lower efficiencies than just about all those listed in the EPA list. That also translates in higher flue temps.



This is true, they do have some pretty crappy efficiency numbers.  I forgot all about that.  So, when they tested they probably passed with very high flue temps and short burn times.  I seriously doubt it would pass burning as such to achieve 10-12 hour burn times.


----------



## maple1

Case1030 said:


> The idea isn't to kill the draft completely, just to slow it down to the manufacturers specification. Visual check of the chimney before and after damper will help determine if more draft is needed for combustion.
> 
> That's kinda like saying you will get creosote if you have a 16ft chimney opposed to 28ft. You shouldn't need 0.1- 0.2 draft to get a clean burn that unrealistic.



That was my point though. I wasn't talking killing draft. I was talking reducing it to manual specs.

So - what if you did that, and it killed secondary combustion? 

Answer - defective furnace design.

Along with some kind of hocus pocus voodoo that happened that allowed them to pass EPA stuff....


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> So, when they tested they probably passed with very high flue temps and short burn times


Exactly...somewhere in the past the link to the EPA test on this thing was put up...this thread or one of the others like it on FC problems...the burn times were short.


----------



## brenndatomu

Let me ask you a serious question @Mrpelletburner , when you were looking to buy a wood furnace, what all models did you seriously consider? 
What was the deciding factor that made you pick the FC1000?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Let me ask you a serious question @Mrpelletburner , when you were looking to buy a wood furnace, what all models did you seriously consider?
> What was the deciding factor that made you pick the FC1000?




red, he liked the color red..........like someone else I know.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> red, he liked the color red..........like someone else I know.


I wanted blue, but couldn't find a reasonably priced high temp blue that I liked...so yup, red it is


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Let me ask you a serious question @Mrpelletburner , when you were looking to buy a wood furnace, what all models did you seriously consider?
> What was the deciding factor that made you pick the FC1000?



Well I really didn’t know what to look for. Online I was watching videos of the Caddy and the FC. A local stove shop had a left over Royal something coal/wood furnace, however they didn’t have a customer service department. I called HY-C about 3 times and talked to the same person and they suggested the FC1000. Looking at the marketing material, it appeared to be the perfect stove and was only $1500 delivered. The other stove I looked into was the Caddy, another brand that had a good rep.

In the end, burn time, ease of setup and cost.

Boy did I make the wrong choice!

Still like the Caddy and it more affordable twin, however, that Cadillac of furnaces FV100 (I think that the model) would be nice. 

Going to suck getting another stove down the bulkhead.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Just some photos of the secondary air delivery.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Just some photos of the secondary air delivery.
> 
> View attachment 238422
> 
> 
> View attachment 238423
> 
> 
> View attachment 238424
> 
> 
> View attachment 238425



Oh wow doesnt even look like they preheat the secondary air?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Just some photos of the secondary air delivery.
> 
> View attachment 238422
> 
> 
> View attachment 238423
> 
> 
> View attachment 238424
> 
> 
> View attachment 238425


So the secondary air just has a straight shot in after that damper door thing? Geez these things are simple!
And no wonder you have to run 'em so hard to get them to clean up...the air is not being superheated...that air delivery system is sooo simple...too simple. Looks like another reason you have the fire at the back...that's where the air comes in and it doesn't look to have the air holes sized progressively larger like many do either...so it takes the path of least resistance, first hole it can find.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Oh wow doesnt even look like they preheat the secondary air?



Honestly, the surface area under that box is so hot, it has to account for preheated air.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> So the secondary air just has a straight shot in after that damper door thing?
> 
> Looks like another reason you have the fire at the back...that's where the air comes in and it doesn't look to have the air holes sized progressively larger like many do either...so it takes the path of least resistance, first hole it can find.



That “fire at the back” is one reason why I think the file temps are so high. The heat is being concentrated right under the rear of the furnace.


----------



## Case1030

On the tundras it goes under the firebox bed then up the channels at the rear of stove inside the firebox, after that they go north south with tubes distributing the air. So for drolet and other manufacturers go through all that effort to preheat the air it has to do somthing beneficial.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> That “fire at the back” is one reason why I think the file temps are so high. The heat is being concentrated right under the rear of the furnace.


But the heat/fire still has to go forward, around the front of the baffle to get back to the flue, no?


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> On the tundras it goes under the firebox bed then up the channels at the rear of stove inside the firebox, after that they go north south with tubes distributing the air. So for drolet and other manufacturers go through all that effort to preheat the air it has to do somthing beneficial.


Yes, the secondary air intake on the Tundra, Caddy, Heatpro, Max Caddy is probably 4' long (each side) until it gets to the tubes...I'd bet that's 1000*F (+) oxygen feeding the fire.
The primary air system is pretty long on the Kuuma too...secondary air tubes are only maybe 2', but almost all of it is exposed to the fire.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> But the heat/fire still has to go forward, around the front of the baffle to get back to the flue, no?



In theory yes. However the front side of the stove doesn’t measure anything close to the heat inside the flue. This is one of the point I have brought up to HY-C.


----------



## laynes69

Here is the inside of a Caddy/Tundra.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

laynes69 said:


> Here is the inside of a Caddy/Tundra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 238433



Same design between the 2? Why would someone buy the Caddy for the extra $$? Yes I have read threads explaining the 2, but still can’t figure out why the extra $$.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Same design between the 2? Why would someone buy the Caddy for the extra $$? Yes I have read threads explaining the 2, but still can’t figure out why the extra $$.



You can buy addons for the caddy that aren't made for the Tundra (oil burner, ac coil, electric furnace elements. And as far as I know they have a mini grate instead of a plug for ashes. More setting you can adjust but nothing a temp controller can't do. Just a bunch of small things that add up. The tundra and caddy on paper look like they took the EPA test as the same furnace... must be similar enough to have the same results.


----------



## brenndatomu

And the Caddys are bought only from a dealer...ever hear of dealer mark up?
The Tundra and the Caddy line originally had more difference between them than they do now since the TII came out...firebox and general design has always been the same though


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> In theory yes. However the front side of the stove doesn’t measure anything close to the heat inside the flue. This is one of the point I have brought up to HY-C.


You are comparing apples and oranges here...*inside* of the pipe vs *outside* of the firebox...


----------



## Case1030

1 hour after fresh reload. Also haven't cleaned the window in 2 weeks. Wood moisture 18-22%.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> 1 hour after fresh reload. Also haven't cleaned the window in 2 weeks. Wood moisture 18-22%.



Can someone please explain the timer/controller?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Can someone please explain the timer/controller?


DIY hack to make the Tundra "Kuuma-ish"


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> Same design between the 2? Why would someone buy the Caddy for the extra $$? Yes I have read threads explaining the 2, but still can’t figure out why the extra $$.



I betting, even though they are similar in firebox design, quality of materials are different.  They have their entry level models and then the higher up models.  To relate it to computers, most companies have their entry level consumer marketed stuff sold at the Best Buy's of the world and then they have their business class stuff.  Big difference.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I wanted Pontiac blue, but couldn't find a reasonably priced high temp blue that I liked...so yup, red it is



good man.


----------



## sloeffle

Mrpelletburner said:


> Same design between the 2? Why would someone buy the Caddy for the extra $$? Yes I have read threads explaining the 2, but still can’t figure out why the extra $$.


When @laynes69 and I bought our furnaces the Tundra didn't exist. If I were to do it all over again, I'd buy a Kuuma or get a lambda controlled boiler. If money weren't an object I'd buy the biggest Garn they make or buy a Froling and put 2k gallons of storage on it. Then you would be cooking with gas


----------



## laynes69

All said and done....I think I paid around 1500 after it was all said and done..so I cant complain. If I ever needed to replace ours, I'd consider the larger tundra.


----------



## laynes69

JRHAWK9 said:


> I betting, even though they are similar in firebox design, quality of materials are different.  They have their entry level models and then the higher up models.  To relate it to computers, most companies have their entry level consumer marketed stuff sold at the Best Buy's of the world and then they have their business class stuff.  Big difference.


I worked for a pump company, the premium pumps were hundreds more than the entry models. The difference, color and warranty! As far as warranty, they were rarely needed. The Caddy is dealer controlled and service is there, where Tundras are consumer. I highly doubt they change materials between each.


----------



## sloeffle

laynes69 said:


> All said and done....I think I paid around 1500 after it was all said and done..so I cant complain. If I ever needed to replace ours, I'd consider the larger tundra.


I *think* I paid about double that and then some.



laynes69 said:


> I worked for a pump company, the premium pumps were hundreds more than the entry models. The difference, color and warranty! As far as warranty, they were rarely needed. The Caddy is dealer controlled and service is there, where Tundras are consumer. I highly doubt they change materials between each.


The heavier fire bricks on the Caddy are better IMHO. Does the Tundra have sound dampening material on the inside of the furnace ? Other than those couple things, I'd say they are the same.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> I worked for a pump company, the premium pumps were hundreds more than the entry models.


Was that the "blue pumps", or the "green pumps"? I took a class at the "blue pumps" "university/training center" in 2015...impressive place!


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Does the Tundra have sound dampening material on the inside of the furnace ?


No


----------



## Mrpelletburner

laynes69 said:


> All said and done....I think I paid around 1500 after it was all said and done..so I cant complain. If I ever needed to replace ours, I'd consider the larger tundra.



Which one is the larger Tundra?


----------



## 3fordasho

Mrpelletburner said:


> Which one is the larger Tundra?




Heat Pro - same firebox as the max caddy.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> On the tundras it goes under the firebox bed then up the channels at the rear of stove inside the firebox, after that they go north south with tubes distributing the air. So for drolet and other manufacturers go through all that effort to preheat the air it has to do somthing beneficial.



What controls the amount of secondary air or are the air channels always wide open?


----------



## Boilers

Mrpelletburner said:


> What controls the amount of secondary air or are the air channels always wide open?



Air channels are wide open. Flue draft controls how much secondary air comes in! This is why Tundras have a specific range for the draft and sometimes require a baro


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> I worked for a pump company, the premium pumps were hundreds more than the entry models. The difference, color and warranty! As far as warranty, they were rarely needed. The Caddy is dealer controlled and service is there, where Tundras are consumer. I highly doubt they change materials between each.



If this is truly the case, do they supply a jar of Vaseline with all Caddy purchases then?     Wow, I thought the Caddy's were better built than the Tundra's.  I played with the original Tundra at Menards a couple years ago and thought it seemed pretty darn chintzy/tinny.  Maybe the new ones are better.  I never saw a Caddy or the new Tundra/Heat Pro in person.


----------



## Medic21

brenndatomu said:


> Let me ask you a serious question @Mrpelletburner , when you were looking to buy a wood furnace, what all models did you seriously consider?
> What was the deciding factor that made you pick the FC1000?



I bought mine thinking and epa rating and around a grand couldn’t go wrong.  

We all know how that turned out...

Narrowing down OWB choices.  I’m staying away from my original choices that were honestly based on pricing and only looking between two brands and deciding between three models.  I will not make the price tag decision again. 

 I’ve got enough scrap metal to dispose of...


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> Was that the "blue pumps", or the "green pumps"? I took a class at the "blue pumps" "university/training center" in 2015...impressive place!


Green pumps. Everything now is outsourced.


----------



## laynes69

JRHAWK9 said:


> If this is truly the case, do they supply a jar of Vaseline with all Caddy purchases then?     Wow, I thought the Caddy's were better built than the Tundra's.  I played with the original Tundra at Menards a couple years ago and thought it seemed pretty darn chintzy/tinny.  Maybe the new ones are better.  I never saw a Caddy or the new Tundra/Heat Pro in person.


A Caddy can be installed in just about any configuration. Back when..there also was a c-cast baffle, insulated air jacket and some other options that wasn't in the tundras. Now they are offering upgrades electronics and such. They do carry the same firebox, but other components vary I'm sure.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

cracked weld?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Looks like it to me.  Didn't someone (laynes maybe) say this was going to happen with the draft you were pulling?  Overfiring the furnace.  Now you can contact them and have it fall under warranty seeing they wanted you to run it this way.  It's their baby now......


----------



## maple1

Hard to tell from the pic - I'd say maybe?


----------



## Medic21

Actually looks more to me that there was just poor penetration on that weld than a crack.


----------



## JRHAWK9

maybe clean it up with a wire brush and take a few more photos at different angles.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> Actually looks more to me that there was just poor penetration on that weld than a crack.



Coupe spots like this. Have the furnace cooling down so I can clean it down and take some more photos.

Need to investigate why the flue temps are so high. Have to look at my notes regarding the flue temps I saw on the 1000.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> cracked weld?
> 
> View attachment 238580


Cracked weld, and looks like it runs down into the tube some too...


----------



## maple1

Mrpelletburner said:


> Coupe spots like this. Have the furnace cooling down so I can clean it down and take some more photos.
> 
> Need to investigate why the flue temps are so high. Have to look at my notes regarding the flue temps I saw on the 1000.



Actually I don't think you need to do any investigating. The answer has been pretty clear to all of us for weeks now.


----------



## JRHAWK9

maple1 said:


> Actually I don't think you need to do any investigating. The answer has been pretty clear to all of us for weeks now.



Sounds to me like Hy-C may have him chasing a mystical smoking gun just to keep him "occupied".



Mrpelletburner said:


> Coupe spots like this. Have the furnace cooling down so I can clean it down and take some more photos.
> 
> Need to investigate why the flue temps are so high. Have to look at my notes regarding the flue temps I saw on the 1000.



Have you ever had a "heart to heart" with the guys at Hy-C?  I mean a serious "I'm pi$$ed off" conversation?  Sounds to me there's way too much nicey-nicey going on with them.  I totally get not wanting to be a dick and confrontational right away, but man, you've been dealing with these guys for way too long and it seems they are just feeding you line after line to string you along.  Maybe I'm wrong.

You joked about starting a GoFund me page.  Maybe you should and start by making a gesture to Hy-C about them making a $1500 donation to kick things off and in turn they can have their FC1500 back (sure hope you didn't have to pay to "upgrade" to the FC1500 after the FC1000 was a flop).


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> Sounds to me like Hy-C may have him chasing a mystical smoking gun just to keep him "occupied".
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever had a "heart to heart" with the guys at Hy-C?  I mean a serious "I'm pi$$ed off" conversation?  Sounds to me there's way too much nicey-nicey going on with them.  I totally get not wanting to be a dick and confrontational right away, but man, you've been dealing with these guys for way too long and it seems they are just feeding you line after line to string you along.  Maybe I'm wrong.
> 
> You joked about starting a GoFund me page.  Maybe you should and start by making a gesture to Hy-C about them making a $1500 donation to kick things off and in turn they can have their FC1500 back (sure hope you didn't have to pay to "upgrade" to the FC1500 after the FC1000 was a flop).



I tend to go about things a different way. Social media and YouTube can go a long way, if it gets to that point. I have found things never work out for me if I lose my sh!t on someone. I have a very hard time believing that they only sold a coupe of these units, just need more people to come out of the wood work.

We now all know that I was not the only one that had puff issues with the FC1000.

I did not pay to upgrade and I guess it is the reason I have not gone off the deep end. 

I did talk to the wife tonight and she agrees that that we need a better mouse trap. My fear is I am not in a better position with the updated purchase.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> I tend to go about things a different way. Social media and YouTube can go a long way, if it gets to that point. I have found things never work out for me if I lose my sh!t on someone. I have a very hard time believing that they only sold a coupe of these units, just need more people to come out of the wood work.
> 
> We now all know that I was not the only one that had puff issues with the FC1000.
> 
> I did not pay to upgrade and I guess it is the reason I have not gone off the deep end.
> 
> I did talk to the wife tonight and she agrees that that we need a better mouse trap. My fear is I am not in a better position with the updated purchase.




I agree, emoting and going all nutso usually does more harm than good, however, letting them know you are serious as a heart attack may benefit you.  Be stern and tell them what you expect and demand it.         

Social media can also be a good avenue to take.  The issue goes from being just between you and them to everybody watching.  They have a bit more to lose when everybody is watching.  However, customer service will only do so much, eventually their product has to stand on it's own; so far, it has not.

Better position???  I'm not sure you could have been in a worse position the past two heating seasons.  Look around this site, outside of others with Hy-C's, have you seen anyone having remotely as many issues as you have?  Heck, you and the others with the newer Hy-C's have pretty much become the entertainment for us furnace guys (and a boiler guy or two) on this forum the past two winters.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah I think at this point I would be _demanding_ my money back! And honestly I think asking for some extra $ for "pain and suffering" would not be out of line! You have gone _waaayy_ above and beyond for these people!
Like JR said, you can't get any worse...


----------



## brenndatomu

After seeing the last pics you posted of the air control apparatus on the back there, it makes me wonder, does the primary and secondary air still both come from the same spot, and gets "regulated" by that bi-metallic flap deal? If so, this is really not much better than the FC1000.
I've been trying to come up with an analogy for not controlling the chimney draft...and I think I have it.
The chimney is the engine that drives the stove...so controlling the draft with a damper of some sorts on the chimney is like controlling the speed of your car with the throttle position...works pretty good, right?
But not controlling the draft on the chimney, trying to do it by throttling the intake damper only, is like setting the throttle to wide open, then controlling the speed of the car with the brakes...you can kinda sorta do it...but it is ugly, and crude, and stuff gets tore up pretty quickly...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> After seeing the last pics you posted of the air control apparatus on the back there, it makes me wonder, does the primary and secondary air still both come from the same spot, and gets "regulated" by that bi-metallic flap deal? If so, this is really not much better than the FC1000.



No, completely different air paths.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Everyone has suggested adding a baro and setting it to 0.06” WC. 

Hypothetically, if I were to set the draft to let’s say 0.07” WC, loaded the fire box and still only was able to get 4-5 hours of heat from the furnace before the distribution blower started to cycle, what would be the next item on the list to look at (besides a new furnace)?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Everyone has suggested adding a baro and setting it to 0.06” WC.
> 
> Hypothetically, if I were to set the draft to let’s say 0.07” WC, loaded the fire box and still only was able to get 4-5 hours of heat from the furnace before the distribution blower started to cycle, what would be the next item on the list to look at (besides a new furnace)?



Put one of those heat reclaiming magic heaters, plumb it into your fresh air on your blower.  Haha but that's some crude stuff might void your house insurance.


----------



## Medic21

Case1030 said:


> Put one of those *Creosote generating* magic heaters, plumb it into your fresh air on your blower.  Haha but that's some crude stuff might void your house insurance.




I fixed it for you.


----------



## Case1030

Any modifications to the stove technically would void your house insurance... we are talking about a $1500 stove here not a house and your safety. You already know what you have to do. Try to get a refund along with selling the two furnaces... maybe a weekend garage burner won't mind the short burn times and inefficient fuel consumption.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Along with enabling the draft blower with thermostat, would it also be possible to connect some kind of controller that when the flue temp dropped below 350 degrees, kick on the draft blower at 1/4 or 1/2 speed? Perhaps point me in the right direction?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Along with enabling the draft blower with thermostat, would it also be possible to connect some kind of controller that when the flue temp dropped below 350 degrees, kick on the draft blower at 1/4 or 1/2 speed? Perhaps point me in the right direction?



Its possible but your already having a hard time heating your place as is... burning slower won't make it much more efficient. It might increase heat exchange through sacrifice of seconday combustion.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Its possible but your already having a hard time heating your place as is... burning slower won't make it much more efficient. It might increase heat exchange through sacrifice of secondary combustion.



Would use the controller to help jump-start the fire when reloading. Noticed that once the flue hits 350-400, the draft starts to take over. Therefore, the controller would turn off the draft blower once the flue temp reached 350 - 400. Now, we all know I still won't get a 12 burn time but will help with the primary air boost.

I think and can't prove... I believe the secondary air control box opens up too much, therefore the short burn times? This is the only air inlet that changes as the furnace heats up. Once the fire catches, it just runs away until the fuel is gone. On that Tundra the draft is set, secondary tubes are always open and the primary helps control the burn.... right?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

To add... I know that when the flue temp is ~350, the plenum temperature should be ~110.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> To add... I know that when the flue temp is ~350, the plenum temperature should be ~110.



So are you currently using the blower... I thought you disconnected it only using it for startups?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> To add... I know that when the flue temp is ~350, the plenum temperature should be ~110.



Also just for reference purpose when my flue is 350f my plenum is 120-125f. That's with the blower on consistently until coaling.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> So are you currently using the blower... I thought you disconnected it only using it for startups?



Using the draft blower when I need to load the fire box in one shot.. last night I tried a different approach. Loaded ¼ the fire box at 10:30, another 1/4 at 11 and filled the rest for the night at 11:45. This allowed the fire to slowly start.

This is a screenshot of my Ecobee sensors located in random rooms. Not sure if anyone is familiar with the Ecobee thermostats, but the allow you trigger your heating system using remote sensors or bases on the average temperature between all rooms. (Really neat stuff). But the first screenshot of my phone shows house temps when the furnace is trucking along.






This is what I woke up to at 6:30 (these temps are a first for not reloading at 3:30/4am. (First time that I have not reloaded. Flue temp measured ~250 and the distribution blower was still going.






Outside temps were in the teens last night (~18F).


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Also just for reference purpose when my flue is 350f my plenum is 120-125f. That's with the blower on consistently until coaling.



But you have the mod that lowers the distribution blower right?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I think and can't prove... I believe the secondary air control box opens up too much, therefore the short burn times?


Can't you just change the length of the chain on that rig to adjust how much it opens?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Can't you just change the length of the chain on that rig to adjust how much it opens?



It would open wider


----------



## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> It would open wider



With a longer chain?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> With a longer chain?



Sorry to early in the morning.

Maybe i can use a paper clip to limit the opening


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> It would open wider


I didn't mean shorten it...take it off, set it aside, go to the hardware store and buy your own (its just lamp pull chain) with a couple more connector ends like they have there, and get to experimenting...change it one link at a time.
If you buy a 3rd connector link then you can put it in so that the main part of the chain can remain, but you can adjust the overall length by changing out a short piece on the end. Make sense?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Make sense?



Yup


----------



## Case1030

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MYPIN-TA4-...527322&hash=item3b07e2cf28:g:GVQAAOSww5hZLFiy

https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-2M-EGT-...07759096?epid=17017917724&hash=item4b46a4e5f8

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Woods-2...ountdown-Timer-Switch-White-59717WD/203638996


----------



## Case1030

You will also need wire... old cut up extension cord will do.

You will have better luck letting the firebox blower kick on and off more often in shorter periods of time. Also hook your thermostat up to the temp controller.

You are using the hottub timer to compleat the circuit to the mypin on startup and when the thermostat calls for heat.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> But you have the mod that lowers the distribution blower right?



Not yet that's the icm 326. Believe it or not... that's still in the mail. 

Once I do have the speed controller installed, the blower will run longer at slower speeds... as the plunum heats up the blower speed increases. It essentially minimizes the on/off of the distribution blower. Slow heat is better than no heat.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Not yet that's the icm 326. Believe it or not... that's still in the mail.
> 
> Once I do have the speed controller installed, the blower will run longer at slower speeds... as the plunum heats up the blower speed increases. It essentially minimizes the on/off of the distribution blower. Slow heat is better than no heat.



Is this the icm 326?

https://www.icmcontrols.com/productdetails/ICM326HN


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Is this the icm 326?
> 
> https://www.icmcontrols.com/productdetails/ICM326HN



There are used and old stock unopened on ebay for pretty good prices. Anywhere from $35-50 usd should get you a nice unit. Make sure it comes with a thermo probe.


----------



## sloeffle

Mrpelletburner said:


> Is this the icm 326?
> 
> https://www.icmcontrols.com/productdetails/ICM326HN


Yeah that is the one that I have. I bought mine from flebay.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

All ordered.. are there other components that I need?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> All ordered.. are there other components that I need?



Did you also order the ICM? If so you will need a 5k pot to adjust the temp range on your speed controller.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Seller...tiometer-Pot-with-Knob-B5K-16mm-/142771745820


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Did you also order the ICM? If so you will need a 5k pot to adjust the temp range on your speed controller.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Seller...tiometer-Pot-with-Knob-B5K-16mm-/142771745820



Yes and ordered. I have to believe the distribution blowers are very similar between the 2 furnaces.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes and ordered. I have to believe the distribution blowers are very similar between the 2 furnaces.



What distribution motor is on your furnace?

Also the pot is only to adjust the prob resistance nothing special.

On the tundra it's a 1/4hp 1075rpm/4 speed

How much did you pay for the icm. Send me a link.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I have to believe the distribution blowers are very similar between the 2 furnaces.


Yes, both PSC (permanent split capacitor) motors most likely...almost all wood furnaces are.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Man, I hate to be debby downer, but I really think you are wasting your time speed controlling this furnace.  Varying your blower speed will not change how it burns the wood.  You are putting the cart before the horse, IMO.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

JRHAWK9 said:


> Man, I hate to be debby downer, but I really think you are wasting your time speed controlling this furnace.  Varying your blower speed will not change how it burns the wood.  You are putting the cart before the horse, IMO.



I can use this setup on the Tundra right? [emoji41]


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> I can use this setup on the Tundra right? [emoji41]


Yep no loss there...


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Man, I hate to be debby downer, but I really think you are wasting your time speed controlling this furnace.  Varying your blower speed will not change how it burns the wood.  You are putting the cart before the horse, IMO.


Probably true...but can't go anywhere but up from here, right?!


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> I can use this setup on the Tundra right? [emoji41]



now you are heading in the right direction.


----------



## sloeffle

Case1030 said:


> Did you also order the ICM? If so you will need a 5k pot to adjust the temp range on your speed controller


I don’t have a POT on my speed controller and it works fine. It has been sitting on my bench collecting dust.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I don’t have a POT on my speed controller and it works fine. It has been sitting on my bench collecting dust.


Everybodys setup will be a little different...I had one furnace I put the ICM on, just used a 2k resistor on the temp sensor...perfect. Had a 1.2k resistor on my Tundra...having the pot is nice to dial things in with though...don't really cost much more than getting a resistor either (because you have to order resistors in quantity's usually)


----------



## sloeffle

Case1030 said:


> On the tundra it's a 1/4hp 1075rpm/4 speed


Found the third difference between the Caddy and the Tundra. My Caddy has a 1/3 HP A.O. Smith motor on it vs the 1/4 HP on the Tundra. It is the same speed too.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Currently -3 outside. Need to kick the baro to -0.1” WC so the furnace can keep up. Big red is  going to be hungry today.


----------



## maple1

Baro?


----------



## Medic21

Thinking about setting the SF1000(FC1000) out in the woods with 20#-25# of tannerite this spring when it warms up.  Then I’ll ship it back with a note that the reengineering was successful but I have to charge for the plans fir the modifications.  


BYOB, I’ll supply the big boom...


----------



## brenndatomu

Medic21 said:


> Thinking about setting the SF1000(FC1000) out in the woods with 20#-25# of tannerite this spring when it warms up.  Then I’ll ship it back with a note that the reengineering was successful but I have to charge for the plans fir the modifications.
> 
> 
> BYOB, I’ll supply the big boom...


It might not do anything to it...they are apparently engineered to withstand explosions...all day, every day!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Saturday I decided to let the furnace completely cool down and inspect.

Nothing special to watch, but wanted to share.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Has anyone ever use this draft gauge? Just trying to compare current measurements using a different tool.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bachara...rICh0FWQaWEAQYASABEgILovD_BwE#reviews-content


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Has anyone ever use this draft gauge? Just trying to compare current measurements using a different tool.
> 
> https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bachara...rICh0FWQaWEAQYASABEgILovD_BwE#reviews-content


I think you will find that almost everybody here uses the Dwyer Mark II model 25...about the most bang for the buck thats out there, reliable too


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Ok I received the MYPIN temp controller, the ICM326, timer, K type probe 0-600c, the pot and the timer. 

How does this all get wired? Was looking through the Tundra posts and the ICM looked different then the one I have. 

Would like to start with just the timer connected. Do I just connect the 2 wires on the back of the timer to the 2 post for the thermostat to close the circuit?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Would like to start with just the timer connected. Do I just connect the 2 wires on the back of the timer to the 2 post for the thermostat to close the circuit?


What are you trying to accomplish? The timer closes the circuit when timing...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> What are you trying to accomplish? The timer closes the circuit when timing...



I am assuming in my case the timer would kick on the draft blower for X minutes.

The other items are to lower the distribution blower speed, similar to what you are doing on the Tundra.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I am assuming in my case the timer would kick on the draft blower for X minutes.


OK, yeah then the tstat wires go on the timer terminals. You are just replacing the tstat with a timer basically...or you could wire it "in parallel" with the tstat...then you could use one, or the other...


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> OK, yeah then the tstat wires go on the timer terminals. You are just replacing the tstat with a timer basically...or you could wire it "in parallel" with the tstat...then you could use one, or the other...




Didn't you have your timer in parallel with your mypin to only allow it to reach a specific temperature then the mypin would kill the connection and close the damper... only later if the temp falls below your set point did it reopen only while the timer is activated? Ultimately setting a high limit temp for your flue on startup?

But like you said could always have it in line with a thermostat to control when it calls for heat aswell.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Didn't you have your timer in parallel with your mypin to only allow it to reach a specific temperature then the mypin would kill the connection and close the damper... only later if the temp falls below your set point did it reopen only while the timer is activated? Ultimately setting a high limit temp for your flue on startup?


Yes, but he said he wanted to just start out with the timer...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Didn't you have your timer in parallel with your mypin to only allow it to reach a specific temperature then the mypin would kill the connection and close the damper... only later if the temp falls below your set point did it reopen only while the timer is activated? Ultimately setting a high limit temp for your flue on startup?
> 
> But like you said could always have it in line with a thermostat to control when it calls for heat aswell.



This is the direction I would like to go. Cut it out at a certain temp so I am not just wasting burn times.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Son of a B! The end of the government shut down came first! I am now at 73 days of first talking to HY-C and still at 4-5 hour burn times. BD installed and set to -0.06” WC, make shift return air supply setup to pull warm air from the ceiling and OAK installed.

I see a different brand/unit being delivered really SOON!


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Son of a B! The end of the government shut down came first!


Told ya!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Can you use the MYPIN to replace the Honeywell high limit switch?


----------



## brenndatomu

What has a Honeywell HLS on it?
What do you want to accomplish?
Me personally, I don't trust these cheap Chinese controllers enough to put them in charge of safety/limit switches...using them as we have been as a temp controller does not (or should not) remove the factory safety controls...in other words, if the Mypin fails, either the fire goes out from not enough air, or the factory limit switche takes over and closes the damper.
Got to think through all the possible scenarios when wiring up mods...this is fire inside your home after all...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

I added a K type thermal probe to measure the plenum temperature and it is WAY off. I am measuring 110 F when the HLC reads 150F. Just didn’t know if there was some way to get better controls for the system while I wait for another unit to be delivered.


----------



## brenndatomu

I'd just adjust the Honeywell to compensate if you want something higher...not worth fooling with for a short term problem...IMO


----------



## Mrpelletburner

So I traveled up north for some skiing with the family this weekend. Funny thing... even though I was staying at a hotel, I still woke up at 3:30 ready to reload the fire box. [emoji15]


----------



## laynes69

Mrpelletburner said:


> So I traveled up north for some skiing with the family this weekend. Funny thing... even though I was staying at a hotel, I still woke up at 3:30 ready to reload the fire box. [emoji15]


Ouch! Our previous furnace was like that, my wife would make me set an alarm to wake up and feed the furnace. I would go to bed late (around 11 pm) so the furnace would still be going at 4am when I woke for work. I never got to sleep in on the weekends, or I would wake to a cold furnace and house. Since we've tightened up our home and replaced the furnace with our current model, it's not an issue. Last night I loaded at 9pm and at 7am it was 71 in the house, temp was 11 degrees. Not to mention the old furnace had a 6.5 cuft firebox, which I would stuff every night. We now load less than half in the current furnace.


----------



## maple1

laynes69 said:


> Ouch! Our previous furnace was like that, my wife would make me set an alarm to wake up and feed the furnace. I would go to bed late (around 11 pm) so the furnace would still be going at 4am when I woke for work. I never got to sleep in on the weekends, or I would wake to a cold furnace and house. Since we've tightened up our home and replaced the furnace with our current model, it's not an issue. Last night I loaded at 9pm and at 7am it was 71 in the house, temp was 11 degrees. Not to mention the old furnace had a 6.5 cuft firebox, which I would stuff every night. We now load less than half in the current furnace.



Those crazy loading routines get to be hard on the health after a while. Seriously.

By the end of the heating season with my old boiler, I was a wreck.


----------



## sloeffle

Mrpelletburner said:


> So I traveled up north for some skiing with the family this weekend. Funny thing... even though I was staying at a hotel, I still woke up at 3:30 ready to reload the fire box. [emoji15]


Yep, I use to do the same thing when we had our wood stove. For about 2 - 3 months of the year I didn't sleep very well.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Loaded up last night around 11 on about 3” of very hot embers. The heat output didn’t skip a beat, first floor at 73. Headed to bed at 11:30, outside temps were in the lower 20’s. Woke up at 5:30 and the first floor temperature was down to 67 degrees, 64 upstairs.

This is what the fire box looked like.







To be honest, I have no clue if the Tundra II would look the same.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Loaded up last night around 11 on about 3” of very hot embers. The heat output didn’t skip a beat, first floor at 73. Headed to bed at 11:30, outside temps were in the lower 20’s. Woke up at 5:30 and the first floor temperature was down to 67 degrees, 64 upstairs.
> 
> This is what the fire box looked like.
> 
> View attachment 239441
> 
> 
> To be honest, I have no clue if the Tundra II would look the same.



I'll post a picture of what the tundra ll looks like after 7 hours... usually 7 hours later my house is still 75f maintaining that with just the coals in the box.


----------



## Case1030

Also remember my flue temps are sitting at anywhere between 300-380f. So if your throwing 500f temps up the chimney along with unburnt smoke that's lost heat that didn't make it into your house.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> I'll post a picture of what the tundra ll looks like after 7 hours... usually 7 hours later my house is still 75f maintaining that with just the coals in the box.



Thanks! I am trying to break down things into 2 parts. 

Part 1, firebox and hot embers. 


Part 2, supply/static pressure. Is my duct system causing heat loss or inadequate supply.

Does this make sense?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Thanks! I am trying to break down things into 2 parts.
> 
> Part 1, firebox and hot embers.
> 
> 
> Part 2, supply/static pressure. Is my duct system causing heat loss or inadequate supply.
> 
> Does this make sense?



I guess it's always good to write notes down to improve your setup. The two things that will do the most for you are the temp controller and ICM. That's really what will make the most difference.

Also your supply ducts might have an impact... but you do have 2 -8inch ducts and are pulling return air off your basement ceiling?

Just so we are on the same page... if all that and HY-c engineer can't get you 10 hour burns your done with the dead horse?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Also your supply ducts might have an impact... but you do have 2 -8inch ducts and are pulling return air off your basement ceiling?



At the moment the return air duct from the basement ceiling has been removed as we had a flooded basement last week (2" of rain and 5" of snow melt all in 1 day).  But yes, pulling return air from the basement ceiling can give you a 2 to 3 degree bump. 

Going forward I am going to have a sheet metal enclosure build and attach it to the rear of the distribution blower box. Then out of the top of the sheet metal enclosure, I will attach 2 8" solid vertical duct, connected to a 45 toward the ceiling and connect to insulated flex pipe. Will terminate the flexible duct at the basement stairs. The 2 vertical ducts will pass to the left and right of the stove pipe, helping preheat the return heat.



Case1030 said:


> Just so we are on the same page... if all that and HY-c engineer can't get you 10 hour burns your done with the dead horse?



Correct... if they leave and I am still getting the same out of this unit, I am done with the suffering. Over this burning season, I have woken up in the middle in the night to either thinking I heard the stove back puff (BANG!) (PSD from the FC1000) or to reload. Cannot begin to tell you how tired I am during the day.


----------



## Case1030

Little over 3 hours into the burn. Loaded to top... only with 16-18 inch splits.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

No smoke shield?


----------



## Devildog1

Mrpelletburner said:


> No smoke shield?


Mr. Pellet burner,  What is HY C doing for you , anything?? Call me an idiot but I bought an Fc1500


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> No smoke shield?



Doesn't come with one... and never really had the need for it. Once the first layer of wood is laid down iv never had smoke come back into the house.

Even after tossing one log on the fire I rarely have a trickle of smoke roll out.


----------



## woodey

Mrpelletburner said:


> Correct... if they leave and I am still getting the same out of this unit, I am done with the suffering


I applaud your patience and effort you have put into this up to this point, but I think the old saying "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" applies here.


----------



## Case1030

Devildog1 said:


> Mr. Pellet burner,  What is HY C doing for you , anything?? Call me an idiot but I bought an Fc1500



Looks like there are more people coming out of the woodworks now. Guessing your having similar issues as mrpelletburner?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Devildog1 said:


> Mr. Pellet burner,  What is HY C doing for you , anything?? Call me an idiot but I bought an Fc1500



What is going on with your FC1500? What are you not having luck with?

The couple issues I am having are short burn times (actually heat output) 4 to 5 hours max and starting to see cracked welds. I am now 75 days in with the unit and have yet to figure out the adjustment that will product longer burn times (actually heat output).

I don't think anyone is an idiot for buying the FC1500. Now the FC1000 should be pulled from the market.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Little over 3 hours into the burn. Loaded to top... only with 16-18 inch splits.



What does the firebox look like now? Have you reloaded?


----------



## Case1030

About 7.5 hours. So far house is still at 74f. I expect to get about 1.5 to 2 hours until I need to reload at 69-70f. 

It is currently -4f outside.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

What is the tube for?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> What is the tube for?
> 
> View attachment 239465


That's called "boost air"...it has a 1/4" hole that blows a little air right on the base of the fire to keep things rollin after a reload, mainly once the main intake damper closes...basically, it just helps keep the primary fire going a bit. Many "tube type" stoves have a version of this.
There is one in the back too...you can see it in @Case1030 's "7.5 hour" pic...about halfway up, right in the center


----------



## Devildog1

Well I could not hook the 8" rounds duct up in the fashion HYC said, as I only have 13 " from the top of furnace to ceiling in basement. I had a plenum box built 8"x 16" x3 ft connecting to the plenum of the oil furnace (meets what HYC says as the minimum of 100 sq inches) I spoke with HYC to see if this method was OK and not voiding warranty... Im gonna put a return air boot on the side of the filter box and use 12" round flex duct to a large first floor vent cold air return and enclose the back of the filter box. HYC said this is all good. I also need a backdraft damper on the oil furnace plenum.

 I burned the furnace 2 days and noticed the distribution wasnt right so, I stopped burning till I get the cold air return and damper issues resolved... I did notice burning seasoned locust that it only lasted about 3 hours firebox half full and had horrible odor in the house...I used to have a jensen wood furnace prior and will miss the fact that I cant control the burn...


----------



## Devildog1

Reading Mr. Pelletburners trials and tribulations makes me nervous thinking I hope I didnt buy a lemon!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Devildog1 said:


> Well I could not hook the 8" rounds duct up in the fashion HYC said, as I only have 13 " from the top of furnace to ceiling in basement.



Is the stove on blocks?



Devildog1 said:


> I burned the furnace 2 days and noticed the distribution wasnt right so, I stopped burning till I get the cold air return and damper issues resolved...



What wasn’t right? Damper issues?



Devildog1 said:


> I did notice burning seasoned locust that it only lasted about 3 hours firebox half full and had horrible odor in the house...



Did you fire the unit outside before installing? First couple burns have an awful smell.

Did you install a biometric damper or have the draft tested?

Lemon? Probably not, just short burn times (heat output). 

I was told 3 weeks ago that everything would be straightened out by the end of THAT week. While I have had a couple of calls and emails since, I am STILL in the same boat.

Since the units are still so new, there is very little tested guide lines for optimized results.


----------



## Devildog1

The unit sits on a cement slab. No Biometric damper and no draft check on flu...I have 30' block chimney with a brand new 6" SS Liner. Just had  the liner installed week ago.Didnt burn it outside, my mistake...The issues are currently with the distribution...Im sure the furnace is to burn hot, but common sense tells me that the hotter the burn the quicker your out of fuel. (wood). Like I said I burned 2 days , and maybe tops got 4 hr burn time...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Devildog1 said:


> The unit sits on a cement slab. No Biometric damper and no draft check on flu...I have 30' block chimney with a brand new 6" SS Liner. Just had  the liner installed week ago.Didnt burn it outside, my mistake...The issues are currently with the distribution...Im sure the furnace is to burn hot, but common sense tells me that the hotter the burn the quicker your out of fuel. (wood). Like I said I burned 2 days , and maybe tops got 4 hr burn time...



Welcome to my world! We are on the same cruse liner 

I also have a ~30’ chimney with a 6” SS liner.
Without the baro installed, the stove is a rocket ship. Expect 800 F flue temps.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Welcome to my world! We are on the same cruse liner


SS Minnow...or maybe the Titanic?! 
Might have to be of a certain age to get that first one...




Mrpelletburner said:


> biometric damper





Devildog1 said:


> No Biometric damper


OK, you guys are driving my internal spell check nuts...its barometric, not biometric ​


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> OK, you guys are driving my internal spell check nuts...its barometric, not biometric [/COLOR][/LEFT]



It’s the spell check changing it... yes very annoying.

It’s like when you respond with a “k” to someone and spell check changes it to an “I”


----------



## JRHAWK9

Mrpelletburner said:


> It’s the spell check changing it... yes very annoying.



While you are fixing your autocorrect, also fix the spelling of stove to   f u r n a c e  and creosole to creosote.


----------



## Mojappa

I thought I was the only one that noticed the creosole thing (which is impressive cause autocorrect wouldn’t let me type creosole since it isn’t a thing)


----------



## TCaldwell

Creosote, Cajun fish dish


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> autocorrect wouldn’t let me type creosole since it isn’t a thing)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosol


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosol




ohhhh, so it has the same relationship to creosote as cement has to concrete.  cool   

BTW, they are not called cement trucks.  You don't refer to cookies as flour.


----------



## Medic21

The 1000 has actually kept up today with -16 and -48 windchill where we landed.  Been 73-74 inside all day and no propane.  I just went out and looked at the tank that was filled January 7, 2018, yes last year, and it’s at 75%.  I’ve been loading every 6 hours but, I expected that in this cold.  

If this piece of crap was more user friendly and didn’t require modifications to work correctly it wouldn’t be a bad furnace.  Maybe I should patent my fix so they have to buy it from me.  I’d sell it to them for the price of the stove so I got my money back.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> The 1000 has actually kept up today with -16 and -48 windchill where we landed.  Been 73-74 inside all day and no propane.  I just went out and looked at the tank that was filled January 7, 2018, yes last year, and it’s at 75%.  I’ve been loading every 6 hours but, I expected that in this cold.
> 
> If this piece of crap was more user friendly and didn’t require modifications to work correctly it wouldn’t be a bad furnace.  Maybe I should patent my fix so they have to buy it from me.  I’d sell it to them for the price of the stove so I got my money back.



Send me photos and directions of the fix. Still planning on using mine for the garage.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Medic21 said:


> The 1000 has actually kept up today with -16 and -48 windchill where we landed.  Been 73-74 inside all day and no propane.  I just went out and looked at the tank that was filled January 7, 2018, yes last year, and it’s at 75%.  I’ve been loading every 6 hours but, I expected that in this cold.
> 
> If this piece of crap was more user friendly and didn’t require modifications to work correctly it wouldn’t be a bad furnace.  Maybe I should patent my fix so they have to buy it from me.  I’d sell it to them for the price of the stove so I got my money back.




That's the one thing about any of those old school (I know it's not marketed that way, but I feel it is) furnaces.  Lack of heat normally is not one of the complaints.


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## Medic21

Mrpelletburner said:


> Send me photos and directions of the fix. Still planning on using mine for the garage.



I will do that but, my homeowners, Farm Bureau, will not insure me with a wood burner in an attached garage.


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## Mrpelletburner

Medic21 said:


> I will do that but, my homeowners, Farm Bureau, will not insure me with a wood burner in an attached garage.



The physical unit will not be in the garage, as I am building a shed for the unit attached to the rear of the garage.


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## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> The physical unit will not be in the garage, as I am building a shed for the unit attached to the rear of the garage.


"The bomb shelter"


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## NH_burner

@Mrpelletburner 

I'm new here, and plan on burning an FC1000 this winter (don't have the chimney up yet) so I may be picking your brain for tips and tricks.  Are you still using the 1500 or did you go away from FC altogether?  Did anyone else report cracked welds and did HY-C say anything about that?


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## sloeffle




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## Mrpelletburner

NH_burner said:


> @Mrpelletburner
> 
> I'm new here, and plan on burning an FC1000 this winter (don't have the chimney up yet) so I may be picking your brain for tips and tricks. Are you still using the 1500 or did you go away from FC altogether? Did anyone else report cracked welds and did HY-C say anything about that?



So my first question is... how seasoned is the wood supply? 

I have moved on from FC (still own the 1500). However IMO trying different WF models is part of the learning curve.

My approach to burning/install regarding the 1000 would be way different today then my approach then. 

The 1500 IMO is a solid unit, you won’t get anywhere close to the advertised burn times, however the unit outputs some serious heat. I can confirm that they did improve the welds and would not hesitate recommending the unit if burn times is not a factor.

Currently have the HeatMax II installed and I am able to load at 11 at night and still have the house at 69-70 degrees at 7am. Perhaps in time I will be able to extend the burn time.

The big difference I think between the 1500 and the HeatMax II, is the HeatMax with the primary air damper allows me to control the heat output. The 1500 has no way to slow down the burn, therefore your house temp goes from 68 to 78 with ease.


Not sure if that answers your question.


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## NH_burner

Mrpelletburner said:


> So my first question is... how seasoned is the wood supply?


I haven't had any delivered yet, so I would ask, how seasoned does it have to be?  After the first couple winters I plan to cut, split and season from my own land but I assumed I would need some delivered for the first couple winters.

Do you think the 1000 can function well in an optimum set up?  Do you still have your 1000 to tinker with?


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## Mojappa

Buying wood is always a risk unless you really know and trust the seller. Most species of wood should season for 2yrs to get it below the 20% moisture level minimum. Invest in a moisture meter and test your wood (split it once more to expose a fresh part of the center of the split and measure there). If you plan to start harvesting wood on your land don’t hesitate, you almost can’t get too far ahead. You’ll be surprised at how much wood you’re chewing through in a months time, especially when it starts getting colder out. Best of luck to ya, there is a whole lot to learn and a lot of work to do but you have a nice support group here.


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## brenndatomu

NH_burner said:


> plan on burning an FC1000 this winter (don't have the chimney up yet)


Did you already buy it? If not, can you still get out of the deal?


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## maple1

NH_burner said:


> I haven't had any delivered yet, so I would ask, how seasoned does it have to be?  After the first couple winters I plan to cut, split and season from my own land but I assumed I would need some delivered for the first couple winters.
> 
> Do you think the 1000 can function well in an optimum set up?  Do you still have your 1000 to tinker with?



I wouldn't  count on burning this winter then. Always assume wood you buy will still need a year of seasoning. It might turn out it doesn't,  but if so that would be equivalent to winning a wood buying lottery.


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## NH_burner

brenndatomu said:


> Did you already buy it? If not, can you still get out of the deal?



Funny you ask that...  Now that I've done some more research I've connected some dots and I believe I bought my FC1000 a couple months ago from @Mrpelletburner without knowing it.  If that's not true, here are some weird coincidences...  When I picked up the 1000 from a person in Massachusetts (I know his signature says NH but hear me out) he had used a silver jeep with a winch to remove the unit from basement.  At the beginning of this thread he posted a picture of a silver jeep with mass plates and a winch being used to move the unit through the bulkhead.  Also in the picture is a 2x4 skid built around the unit for sliding up/down the stairs.  This skid is almost identical to the home built skid that he built around the 1000 when I picked it up.  Also, the person I bought from had a 1000, a 1500 with a cracked weld, and a brand new 1500, all for sale.  Sound familiar?

So why does any of this matter?  Because when I asked why he was selling the units he said the company made a mistake selling him the 1000 for his house and he should have been spec'd for a 1500 so he only had to pay the difference to get the 1500 (the part about paying the difference at least aligns with your story).  Then he said the 1500 cracked due to a defect so they sent him a new one and he was selling all three to buy a nicer furnace.  I had come across these forums months prior when I initially started researching wood furnaces but did not read all the posts in detail, I just assumed one customer had a bad experience due to some chimney issues.  When I was there to look at the unit he was telling me how they are solid, well-built units.  I mentioned seeing this forum where someone had a bad experience and he said (paraphrasing) "yeah I saw that forum, he had trouble because they told him to install a barometric damper, definitely don't do that and you'll be all set."  Why not just tell the truth about the struggles and offer some advice?  Not even a warning?

So shame on me for believing someone on craigslist (I really know better) and for not doing more research... I initially wasn't planning on installing one until next year but my HVAC guy said if I got one right away he would nicely tie it into the ductwork for no extra charge so I hopped on CL and grabbed what I thought was the best deal I could find in a pinch.

I really felt bad about all your struggles, but shame on you for being deceitful about selling a unit that can potentially put smoke and CO into the living space where my wife stays home with my 3 year old and 6 month old while I'm gone to work.  I hope that $800 was worth it.

I understand it's really no different than the manufacturer selling them to the public, but from one man to another I'd expect more ethics and morals. 

And mrpelletburner if you aren't the person I bought the FC1000 from, then there is someone imitating you.

Rant over.


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## Spanky

Well that sucks.  I remember seeing the post with the picture of the silver Jeep and winch lowering it 
into the basement.  Strange how that post and picture has suddenly disappeared.


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## Mojappa

Curiouser and curiouser. Interested to hear from MrPelletBurner on this.


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## NH_burner

Spanky said:


> Well that sucks.  I remember seeing the post with the picture of the silver Jeep and winch lowering it
> into the basement.  Strange how that post and picture has suddenly disappeared.



That is strange isn't it?  Conveniently enough I happened to grab a screenshot of said image before posting my message.  Also notice that the post which is originally from Nov of 2018 happened to get edited last night after I put my message up.




Mojappa said:


> Curiouser and curiouser. Interested to hear from MrPelletBurner on this.



I don't expect we'll hear from him, judging by the fact that he has gone back and deleted all of his videos of the unit backfiring.  Someone is trying to cover his tracks.  If that isn't an admission of guilt and wrongdoing, I don't know what it is.

@Mrpelletburner You can relax with all the deleting, it's not like I threatened taking you to court over $800 or anything and the videos may be useful to other people having issues down the road.


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## brenndatomu

NH_burner said:


> Also notice that the post which is originally from Nov of 2018 happened to get edited last night after I put my message up.


That had to require a moderator to do...can't edit your own post after 12 (24?) hrs normally...


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## webfish

Ok, just getting to this and after a quick look. This thread will be locked. I will delete the pictures of someones license plate. Not sure the edting that went on prior.


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## NH_burner

brenndatomu said:


> That had to require a moderator to do...can't edit your own post after 12 (24?) hrs normally...



I'm no expert, but I do still have the option to edit my posts from yesterday that are more than 24 hrs old.  @brenndatomu you have been all over these threads from the start.  Can you still edit your original posts?

All I know is that yesterday I was watching videos of his FC1000 backfiring and blowing the BD across his basement and today the videos here and on his youtube channel are all gone.


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