# I hat this @#$% EKO



## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

So. for 3 years, I've been chasing this whole wood burning thing. Spent well over $20k when you figure underground lines with insulation, slab & outshed, EKO, several different iterations of heat storage systems, pumps, plumbing, A Nofossil control system (which I will throw out there that Nofossil is great in what he does, nothing against him), and on and on and on..  And this is what I get for it:

1: Never, and I mean NEVER have I acheived a smokeless burn. I've tweaked until my head spins and never gotten it "right"

2: I consume at least 20 cords (Not face, the 4x4x8 foot kind) of hard wood every year. Because of this, and because I'm always chasing my tail in a vain attempt to get "dry" wood I spend every spare minute of my spring, summer and fall cutting & stacking wood.  This fall is the first time that I stock piled what I thought was "enough" before the snow flew..

3: I am CONSTANTLY tending this thing, In this cold weather, I'm out there filling it at least 4 times a day with a fire nearly 24/7.. The 1200 gallon heat storage tank is to ride the house through the night when it goes out for a couple hours between 4am & 7 am..

Now, currently, my boiler is smoking harder than my neighbor's Heatmor OWB, WONT acheive a coal bed no matter what I try, and is barely keeping my house warm. The shop is getting colder and colder, and my heat storage tank is now down to 100 degrees.. It gets colder every day and the only thing its doing for me is preheat my DHW. And, Since monday, I've consumed over half of a 48x40" pallet stacked 7 foot high.. This is insane.. I cut open a couple blocks and used my moisture tester on em, 27%. Not the greatest, but actually drier than some wood I've burned in this.

Now, I will add that the house is drafty, BUT, the previous owners had a conventional wood furnace in the basement, kept the house warmer than me, and said they only used about 8-10 cord (once again, full cord) per winter.. The first winter, I only heated the house with my Homemade gassifier (which actually worked just about as well as this expensive EKO, just that it fell apart on me) and used 13. Last year, 20 with the shop added.. This year I stock piled 18 cords of hardwood blocks from a sawmill. It's over half gone.

Am I the only one who wishes I'd just bought an OWB? At least I could just hack the logs into luggable pieces and push it in and forget about it until 12 hrs later...

Well, that's my gassification boiler UN-success story.


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## taxidermist (Jan 7, 2011)

Matt,

Shoot us some settings

Fan shutter%

Fan speed

Primaries

Secondaries

Pump launch

wood type

Send me a pm if you want to call me

Rob


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## Nofossil (Jan 7, 2011)

So.... sounds like we need a hearth.com road trip. It IS possible to get good clean efficient burns, and I suspect that a couple of hours and a couple of beers would solve the problem. Just a bit too far for me, though.....


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## Chris Hoskin (Jan 7, 2011)

sorry to hear you've had so much trouble Matt.  I know you don't want to hear it, but drier wood would help a lot.  Smaller splits and longer dry times.  Cutting wood in the Spring and Summer is too late for the same year's heating season.  Your burning a lot of wood to turn water to vapor and send it up your chimney.  Do yourself a favor and buy a load of biobricks - I would be willing to bet that you get that smokeless burn you have been searching for.  

It also sounds like you have a tremendous heat load.  Assuming your boiler and storage are plumbed properly, your next energy dollars may be better spent on insulation and caulking instead of a flat plate, etc.  Is it possible that you have a lot of heat loss in your underground pipes?

I'm glad you expressed your frustration here.  This is a generous community of some pretty clever folks.  Hang in there and I am sure we can help you get your problems licked.  

Chris


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## stee6043 (Jan 7, 2011)

Dang. That sucks. I'd be mad too. Do youknow your actual heat load?  If it's 100,000btu/hr maybe 20 cord isn't unreasonable??


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## Danno77 (Jan 7, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> ...This fall is the first time that I stock piled what I thought was "enough" before the snow flew...


I think I found part of your problem, unless you mean that this fall is the first time that you have stock piled what you think is enough hardwood for the 2013-2014 winter.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 7, 2011)

I have struggled some too.  I know a lot of my issues are from wood not dry enough and  I know what I have to do about it.  In the interim, I am getting about 80KBTUH when burning regularly with less than perfect wood (instead of about 120K).  I am going to tweak my settings a little this weekend to fine tune for the "better than last year" wood I am using ;-)  On the plus side, I am regularly offsetting about 40KBTUH 24x7 on my radiant, which runs on propane otherwise.  That is a savings for about $1.50 to $2.00/hour I have heat available to use from storage.  That is about $1000 to $1500/month compared to propane.  At that rate I should pay for the system is 3 to 4 years.

My wood supply has been 24 foot mixed hardwood logs from clearing about 2 acres in June 2007.  They are drier than fresh cut but not 20%.  To compensate for less than perfect wood, I split smaller (smaller than a 4x4, bigger than a 2x4) and have to poke the fire a bit more because of bridging (which is why I am going to tweak a little).  My 15 year old son is doing a pretty good job feeding the fire while I am at work.  Last year I found that following the fine tuning an Eko sticky actually did work to improve my burns.  I think I am getting too much air in the lower chamber resulting in fly ash up the chimney and getting stuck on the cap screen. Tomorrow I am going to process some of the "branches" from the logs (3 to 6 inch diamater) and split them to see what they are like.  I have MANY cords of these in 6 foot lengths.  

Don't give up.  There are a lot of us who have worked though this and are still learning.  Take a breath, have a beer, and let us all pitch in to give you a hand.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

Oh no.. I meant 2010-11 winter....

I CANT get ahead of it.. Do you realize 20 cord is 2 Tractor/trailer loads? That's alot!

Ok, at Rob:

Fan shutter - 50% - Varied this all over.
Fan Speed - 70% - Been there all winter
Secondaries - Tried lots of things, doesn't seem to make much difference. Right now - 3.5 turns open
Primaries - Been a while since I messed with em.. Thinking like 1/2 - 5/8 inch open
Pump - Its a Primary Secondary system. The pump runs whenever the boiler is over 160F. If return is less than 140, all loads are shut down and boiler water is ciculated until return is over 145F

Nofossil: You've been more help than you know! I'd have given up long ago if it hadn't been for you. You are an invaluable asset to this forum!



Wood is all hardwood from a sawmill this year. It's in the form of square blocks approx 4x6" and anywhere from 3 to 20 inches long.. I cut open a few today, and they're about 27%.. Not great, but should be able to be livable..


Chris:

The house was "supposedly" re-insulated and weatherized by the state of WI weatherization program. They blew bale after bale of blown insulation into this house. Personally, they made a huge mess, and it seems like my upstairs is actually much colder and more miserable than it was before they messed with things. I've used more tubes of caulk than I can think of... 

I'm not loosing my heat in my underground lines. They are 5 feet down and in a 8" thick column of corbond. I've measured them several times and my heat loss is less than 1 degree F.

Where would one get those Biobricks you speak of? Maybe it'd help things out.. Or just cost me alot more money.. 

I've been buying those hardwood blocks for about $65/full cord.. It's actually cheaper than logs and alot less work..

Thanks for the help! You guys might keep me for setting a match to that boiler shed yet..


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 7, 2011)

"The pump runs whenever the boiler is over 160F. If return is less than 140, all loads are shut down and boiler water is ciculated until return is over 145F"

Do you have a mixing valve on the boiler return?  The Eko (Paxo) and any gassification boiler works best with return temp protection PREVENTING less than 140F water entering the boiler.  You should have a T on the boiler output which recircultes the HOT out with the return via some sort of mixing valve so the boiler is always seeing at least 140F.  I have read on the forum of apparent increased efficiency as boiler input approaches 160F and I think I have seen that also.  The simplest... sticky has the diagram.  Do you have a system diagram you can post here?


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## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

Ohh..... I could make up a diagram and get up here. But not tonight... I don't have a loop around. It was a bunch of plumbing I didn't want to mess with. I am using bang-bang control.

I've had the system set up this way from the beginning... I know it works better hotter... Maybe need to raise the protection value on my NFCS? Usually I have hotter temps from the boiler anyway... It's just not burning well.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 7, 2011)

Warmer boiler input temp results in more efficient boiler operation.  Not sure what your NFCS return temp is set at but 150 would not be out of line.


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## willworkforwood (Jan 7, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> .....  Wood is all hardwood from a sawmill this year. It's in the form of square blocks approx 4x6" and anywhere from 3 to 20 inches long.. I cut open a few today, and they're about 27%.. Not great, but should be able to be livable .....


As others have already said, I think the wood is working against you bigtime.  Have you checked your heat tubes for creosote?  Poorly seasoned wood can send large amounts of creosote into the tubes, which would in turn cause poor performance.  If the tubes are ok, you might try an experiment to simulate burning with seasoned wood.  Get some dry pallets and hack them into pieces.  Fill the boiler in a ratio something like 2-1 (twice the volume of pallets to your wood), and load the pallets first.  A couple of loads like that should give you much better results and confirm that the wood is your primary issue.  If not, then it will take the hydronics gurus to figure it out.  All of us feel your pain.  We all know how much work this whole thing is, and to not be getting good results is the pits.  Hang in there and whatever the problem is, it will get fixed.


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## dirttracker (Jan 7, 2011)

Just a thought for what it's worth....try getting a bag of charcoal and get a good bed of coals going under your wood with that.

I've been close to your situation, first year I had the tarm I was cutting standing dead trees hand to mouth all winter. I had spent all my wood cutting time putting up the shed and setting up the boiler and piping. I got a bunch of not very dry wood and keeping a fire going was a real PITA. More than once I wished I had just gotten another OWB. Since I was cutting dead trees I could use the upper branches to get a good fire going, this saved my sanity once I figured it out. With your sawmill logs you don't have that type of wood available - hence my charcoal suggestion.

Unless your shop is a real pig to heat it sounds like whomever did the "weatherization" found a way to open up some new holes for you. 20 cords is a whole bunch of wood. I thought I had it bad when I had to cut and process 10 cords/year when I had the OWB. I understand how you can't get ahead burning 20 a year.

By all means raise your return protection to be as high as you think you can stand it. If you are burning high moisture wood having extra heat in the boiler may help a bit. I noticed this from my experiences.


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## mwk1000 (Jan 7, 2011)

> If itâ€™s 100,000btu/hr maybe 20 cord isnâ€™t unreasonable??




Degrees/BTU-HR
15    59137
20    53761
25    48385

My house is about 55000 , maybe 60K in January I use 8 full cords with an eko 60. I could probably use less but I always seem to run into wet wood late in the season and I get the same lousy burns, not as bad as described here but I am at about 24%MC

I have had smokeless burns and hot fully charged tanks , now it is worse I burn two loads for a 3/4 charged tank but still not anywhere near as frustrating as 20 full cords would be. If that is the case I might consider not burning for a year to get ahead since 20 full cords will be 12 when it is actually dry ( or something like that ) sitting it out for dry wood will make sense - far less work. I don't like getting 8 /year if it was wet I would need 11-12. I learned this the first year stuffing the boiler full and fighting to get heat I wen into the woods and cut up an old long dead oak with 6 inches of snow on top of it. Into the boiler and it burned at 185-190 taking all the cold water my tank can deliver. I was stunned but happy to see that and -- no stirring every 2 hours.


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## Kemer (Jan 7, 2011)

This is why I sold my eko 60 and bought a garn.I just knew I would be chasing my tail.My brother sold his too and bought a portage and main and he is also happier


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## Duetech (Jan 7, 2011)

Ouch! Ouch! Just for testing purposes (instead of buying a pallet of bio bricks for now) lug in about 75 or 100  # of charcoal from your local hardware or megachain store. Make sure your boiler exhaust and chimney is clean before your burn. Start a 10 or 15 # amount of charcoal. I used "matchlight" when things got tough. That should gasify rather quickly. Note: if your chimney is dirty youw will still get smoke. If your wood is wet you will get smoke. The efficiency drop you are quoting and the smoke tell s me there is an obstruction in the exhaust or your primaries are way too high and or your secondaries are pumping in too much air. Over active secodaries will actually cool my EKO40. But a semi plugged exhaust channel will blow good gasification out of reach.


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## heaterman (Jan 7, 2011)

taxidermist said:
			
		

> Matt,
> 
> Shoot us some settings
> 
> ...




Add to that

Wood moisture content

When it last had the flue tubes cleaned.

Calculated heating load


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## RobC (Jan 7, 2011)

I would a agree with good, all around cleaning. Check fan blades for fine dust or debris. My Tarm fan had fly ash on them that you couldn't see until I had fan removed from stove and had fan in hand.
4 X 6 blocks try cutting in half. Can you move a week or more resplit wood into a place where it's warm before you burn, to help dry ?

I had an OWB way back that I fought with for almost 10 years. There was no internet forum's back then ( no public internet ). If I had this resource I could have made a quick plumbing change, added a zone priority function and I would have had myself 90% squared away. Then I could have had time to put up a proper wood supply. 

What I am getting at is, this is an incredible resource with many generous folks. I see better days ahead.


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## taxidermist (Jan 7, 2011)

Well Matt I would guess with a combo of wetter wood(still will work) and no return protection your never running hot enough to heat your storage to useable temps. Your system is always playing catch up. Your settings look ok for a 60 running both fans. If you look @ the manual the wetter the wood the more air you add.  I bet your pump is cycling like mad. The return protection and protection loop gently allow cooler water into your boiler heating your storage slow. Once your storage is charged your next fire is just to put btu back in the tank for later use. Kinda like charging a marine batt. Even know you still have juice in the batt after use you still want to top it off for next time.


Rob


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## Sawyer (Jan 7, 2011)

Wish I could help you out of this problem Matt.

Your advice on insulating my underground piping was "spot on". I can't measure a temperature drop in 200 feet.

Hang in there, lots of good advice above.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

OK. Lots of comments here... Let me address them one at a time... I'll try not to leave anything out.

1. Sitting it out for a year is not possible... I'd have to shut the house down. Litterally. If I had to heat with propane, I'd go broke just trying to keep it 50F in the house.. It's BAD... 

I'll try jacking up the return temp. This setup "usually" works fine. It would cycle the boiler protection about 3 or 4 times until it got really cookin', then it'd settle out and run good for the duration of the fire. Seemed like once I got a coal bed, it'd stop cycling. 

I'll also check the chimney. I cant get to the top of the chimney, it's higher than anything I have to stand on.. So I'll have to find a brush and clean it from below.

My EKO has the turbulators with the cleaning handle.. I cycle that handle 4 or 5 times EVERY time I load wood.. 

I too wish I'd gone with a Garn... A lot less drama and mess overall.. But more $$$. I had to borrow money as it was for my EKO.

As it stands, I guess this is where I'm at: I'm ALWAYS going to be burning somewhat wet wood, 2 yrs out is never going to happen. So I'm either going to have to live with it, or get something different.. That's where it's at frankly. It's impossible to store up enough to get ahead.. I was stacking wood every spare minute this spring, summer, and fall and still looks like I may run out. And this wood I didn't have to cut or split, just stack. The logs I had in a pile, I hired cut and split by a guy with a processor. That's $100/cord wood now. 

I'm gonna call the local wood pellet plant and see what bulk delivered pellets would cost. I have a grain bin right next to my boiler shed...


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 7, 2011)

See if you can scrounge some wood PALLETS from anywhere.  I can get enough from feed stores, small harware stores, independent auto parts, pool supply, etc.  If you see a stack of them, go inside and ask.  Then a Sawzall (or chainsaw - watch for nails) will give you a LOT of hot wood to start fires and make a good bed of coals for gassification, and then drying your wood in the boiler will be easier.  Don't worry about the nails in the Eko, just in the ash.  You may want to get one of those nail pickup magnets from the big box store.

What size are your splits?  If you hired a processor, they are probably 2 to 3 times the size you want for wetter wood.  Get an axe or maul and split them some more before you put them in the boiler and while you are waiting for those pallet pieces to get going good (15 to 30 minutes).  I sold some of my wood to a wood stove friend and he asked for my next delivery to be a bit bigger splits (and I did not send him my smaller stuff).  The wetter the wood, the smaller the split.

There is a lot of advice and experience here that can probably get you through this season.  When you process wood this spring, set up a simple hoop house (20' rebar or pvc works), cover with cheap poly film, and make yourself a simple kiln.  I know someone in VA who did that for the wood he processed to buil his house.  Worked great and would probably reduce your moisture by a measurable amount.  Leave the ends open for ventilation.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

Pallets up here are a sellable commodity. Everyone wants em to burn. LOL.

I'll give the charcoal method a try. Right now, I'm planning for next season. And if possible, next season won't include chunk wood.

I know the processed stuff isn't small enough. I plan to still run it through the splitter again.. But I just didn't have time. 

I'm doing the math, and it looks like my next cheapest option is coal.. Followed closely by pellets. Either will be alot less work than wood, more uniform, no moisture content woes, and actually ready to burn when I need it.

As a side note, can anybody venture a wild guess of what my efficiency % is with burning this wet wood and smoking? It'd be good to know so I can get a good cost comparison between what this wood is costing me and what other options will cost me. 

But, if I do end up stuck with chunk wood, the hoop house and poly sounds like a good idea.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 7, 2011)

I think if you split what you have again, you won't have to spend the time gathering fresh wood.  Give it a try.


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## Seyiwmz (Jan 7, 2011)

I just read this string of posts and have determined the solution to your woe's would be to either build a new house or build a nuclear reactor to keep your inefficient house up to temp.


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## Nofossil (Jan 7, 2011)

Based on what little data I have, I'd expect that if you're not getting secondary combustion now, you could expect to see a 40% reduction in wood consumption if you can get to the point where you're getting sustained gasification.

I ran my first year with wood that I cut in the fall. Some of it was 35% MC. I'd get a good fire and bed of coals with a mix of pallet wood and drier hardwood, and then I could burn a good percentage of 35% MC and still get solid gasification. Wetter wood has to be split smaller :-(


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## mr.fixit (Jan 7, 2011)

Just a couple thoughts I had;Ive never had any luck running my 40 with the primary air less than 1/2" open ,right now there at almost 5/8".I dont know if its the type of wood (red oak) or what but thats what works for me.It is dry though-15-20%. Most of the time I have smoke free burns.
Am I wrong in thinking that a 60 is going to need more air than the 40?. Doesnt the 60 have 2 nozzles?
I would try letting more air in the primary chamber.
Another thing I have found that when I burn scraps from the woodshop is that if they go in first ,because of their shape ,(flat--rectangular)they cover or sometimes plug the nozzle  resulting in smoke even  though they are very dry.Round branch wood in first fixes that.Did I understand right that you were burning some sawmill cut-offs? Are they square shaped?


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## rkusek (Jan 7, 2011)

Matt, I'm with you on finding time to stay ahead of the wood cutting.  Especially, when I'm still trying to bring my storage and homemade expansion tank online as well as several other projects that need to be done on my off days.  I've been running hard since Thanksgiving and my 3 cord pile of 2yr old wood is down to a little over a cord.  Will be lucky to make it into February.  I knew I didn't have enough but had too many projects going on.  I will out looking for standing dead and using some walnut cut this summer to mix with the dry stuff.  You just need to get ahead of the game.  Pellets or coal might help you do it.  FWIW, my circ pump on my EKO 40 turns on at 165 and shuts off at 159 and I'm using a Danfoss valve.  Running without storage sucks for me.  However, when I come back 5 hrs after it has burned out the boiler is still in the 150F's and getting it back up to temp is a breeze.  I would adjust your NCFS settings to keep the boiler hotter.  I've learned the boiler runs better when kept hot.  On a cold start now I always let a few pieces burn with the ash door wide open for 20" to get that hot bed of coals.  You might try the charcoal trick also.  Amen on the small splits.  Elm and Walnut seem to dry fast when split like this too.


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## EricV (Jan 7, 2011)

I can't help much because I have a Tarm but I know dry wood is key.  I think I would get a load of bio-bricks and burn just them for a few days to see if it makes any difference.  Then you'll know if it's the fuel or hardware or the home.  I suspect the fuel.  Good luck!


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## Birdman (Jan 7, 2011)

ok.... you can't be serious. 20 full cord of wood? Must be a joke. I have a very inefficient, poorly built log cabin... 2000 sq ft... with cathedral ceiling. I have a tarm 40 solo. This is my 3rd year burning.... 3 sports kids taht take 2 long showers a day... and I have never gone over 5 cord.... for all of October to all of march. 

Are you leaving your doors open when you heat your house? I think I could use 20 cord... but only if I left my front door open wide all winter long.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

Thanks for telling me what I already know Seyiwmz... If I could, I would.  I "thought" I was doing the right thing by having the state weatherization program "weatherize" our house.. I'd have been better off leaving it un-insulated.. Take this as a note folks, an un-insulated house CAN be warmer than a house done improperly. 


Unfortunately, I'm stuck with what i've got... I used up my entire savings account putting this cure-all, end-all system in place. So now I'm stuck and HAVE to make it work for me.

I will say this, I get "some" smoke in the upper chamber, but its usually live fire up there. Now, from what I understand, I should have lots of smoke and nearly no fire up there, so that means I've got too much primary air. BUT, if I close it down, it seems to never really take off. I'm in a catch 22. 

As a side note, I have Stainless 8" double-wall chimney, that starts about 5 feet off the ground and extends upward 12 feet from there. The stove is connected by a 2 foot piece of black stovepipe that is wrapped in fiberglass insulation. This pipe goes upward at approx a 45-60 degree angle. Plenty of rise. The chimney seems to draft well as I can remove the clean-out plate at the bottom of the T outside, and the smoke will rise up the chimney and none of it will spill out the bottom of the pipe.


Yes, the wood is block shaped. What's strange is it had been burning "ok" up till recently. I'd acheive a roaring flame down in the secondary chamber, but it'd always be a rich yellowy-orange flame. Never the "good" blue flame... Only got that toward the end of the fire...

I'm supposed to be getting a bag of charcoal today. I'm gonna spread that in the bottom of the boiler and see if I can achieve some gasification..

In the mean time, I'm gonna try and close the primaries down some more and see what happens. And also check and see what my stovepipe looks like inside.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm not kidding birdman... I heat the house, preheat the DHW (still burn some propane to heat it, but I get it preheated to at least 130F), keep my milkhouse  at the barn heated to around 55-58 since that's where the well is (we don't milk cows anymore) and heat my 40x48 shop which has radiant in-floor heat. Actually, the shop takes less than the house to heat. 

We're constantly chasing the "blast of cold air" in the house. I've gone through more caulk and great-stuff than you can shake a stick at.


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## pybyr (Jan 7, 2011)

Hi Matt-

You mentioned that you use the side handle turbulator agitator, but have you actually opened it up and thoroughly cleaned the fire tubes?  

My first winter with my EBW 150, I ended the season on wood that'd had too little chance to season, and got some hard buildup in the firetubes that the turbulator/ agitator really did not clean off.  Some work with a wire wheel mounted on a length of drill rod powered by an electric drill cleaned the tubes out, but it took some signifcant scrubbing with that to really clean the firetubes down to bare surface.

Also, between finite range of movement and the fact that the turbs can't be a truly tight fit at all points of contact (as then they'd be too hard to move), the turbulator-based cleaning method is "better than nothing, but far from complete."

I don't think that cleaning the firetubes will be a solve-all, but I get the sense that your difficulties may be the product of the compounding of a bunch of drawbacks, so whittle away as much as you can at every variable that you can.

Good luck


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## Fred61 (Jan 7, 2011)

I also believe moisture content is the biggest culprit in this situation. Not that it makes a hell of allot of difference for this problem but those folks that are getting slab wood from a sawmill are getting all sap wood and bark unless tree grow really crooked where you are. That's not going to have as much energy as the splits that also contain the heartwood. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to get a cord of it for 65 bucks.
I, too am burning wet wood at this time even though I have several cords of two year wood stacked. I helped a friend take down a huge double trunked silver maple on his front lawn and promised him I would take the top 25 feet off his hands that were laying across his driveway while he found someone with equipment large enough to take away the rest. This was in January of 2010. I dumped it behind my garage and split and stacked it in April. This stuff is so low quality for firewood that it's not worth the space it's taking up in the woodshed so I am trying to get rid of it. There was about three cord. I don't have a moisture meter. The reason I have not sprung for one is because I typically burn two and three year wood and there usually isn't a question on whether it is dry or not. The higher moisture content causes bridging due to the fact that the coals are burned up before the splits can produce more because it is still boiling water out of the piece. When the bridging occurs it does smoke. I need to stir the fire every 20 minutes to get the logs down closer to the nozzle. Good thing it is indoors and I only have to trek to my basement and I only have one 5 or 6 hour fire a day. Part of the problem could also be the poor coaling qualities of the wood. I'm going through it like crazy. I've already burned nearly 2 cords of it--- Good riddance. One thing that has helped was to adjust my low limit (circulator on) to 175*. The hotter the boiler the better it consumes the wetter wood. I've fooled around with the settings, primary, secondary, fan speed, etc. but I haven't been able to change the burning characteristics that much. When I went out to dinner with friends last week, I loaded the EKO with well seasoned maple because I wasn't going to be around to stir the fire and it reassured me that nothing has changed and the wood is the big problem.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 7, 2011)

I agree... 

My wood though is NOT slabwood. I know that stuff. Unless it's free, I won't mess with it. My wood is chunk, heartwood. VERY little bark. 99% of the pieces have NO bark at all. Anywhere. What this is, when they take a log, they slab off the outside (slabwood) to make the log into a square beam. Then, they cut off the ends to make the log squared, and exactly 8 feet long. These blocks that they cut off the ends are what I'm burning.

18lb bag of charcoal is on the way. We'll see if it improves things. 

I found lignite coal for $100/ton about 5hrs away. I may get a few ton and mix with my wood to see if things improve. But first, I'll cover the obvious bases.


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## Rick Stanley (Jan 7, 2011)

Here's a copy of an article that was in the latest newsletter from SWOAM. Might be helpful...........

Heating with Unseasoned Wood? It Can Be Done
by Peter Lammert, Wood-to-Energy Specialist, Maine Forest Service

As promised last month, here are some tips about burning unseasoned firewood. It can be risky (because of the potential of the flue gases accumulating as creosote), time-consuming (shuffling firewood around to help it "season"), and it may use all the dry wood scraps you can lay your chainsaw on.

I define "unseasoned" firewood as wood with moisture content of 20-35%. Wood above 35% is "green", in my book. Wood with 19% or less moisture is "dry". Several Maine firewood dealers have honest-to-goodness wood or propane-fired kilns that can dry wood to as low as they want.  But once they open the kiln doors, the outdoor moisture content is at least 20%, higher if it's raining. So unless the wood is transferred directly to a dry space, there's little sense drying below 19%. Wood, being hydroscopic, will start to re-absorb moisture from the air. So if you're lucky enough to buy wood with 19% or less moisture, treat it like a special commodity.

Store it in a warm, dry place, as in a dry cellar. Have the wood dumped on a tarp next to the cellar door or window and then bet the kids in the house they can't get it all in the cellar before nightfall. That's where the tarp comes in. If they can't get it all inside by dark, wrap the edges around what is left and cover with another waterproof cover.

Down in the cellar, at least 3 feet away from any heating device, pile up the dry wood on pallets, just in case you do get a flood, and enjoy the warmth.

If you were not able to get dry wood, or worse, stuck getting green wood, here are my tips for maximizing drying. If you can order just ash from your firewood dealer, do so. If they charge an extra $10 to $15, it's well worth it.

White ash, when growing, is about 15% drier than most other hardwoods. If you can get all white ash, you're ahead of the game. To get moisture moved out of green or unseasoned firewood you need two things -- an ambient temperature of at least 40 degrees, and some kind of airflow. The hotter and windier the better.

The recipe for drying wood has the ingredients of time, temperature and turbulence -- the three Ts. Stack the split wood to be dried cross-piled in a dry, warm area. The warmth could come from a wood stove or other heating device, with radiant heat escaping from the sides or top.

Pile the wood on pallets all the way up to the ceiling so air from the fans has to go through the pieces and not up and over the top or around the sides. You will have to re-pile the wood at some point to get the pieces from the bottom higher up, to best utilize the rising heat from the stove.

If you don't have a heated storage space such as the cellar, you will have to make some space on either side of the stove, at least 3 feet away, for your criss-cross piles. Again, you will need a fan blowing from the other side of the stove, as well as dry scrap wood to start a fire and get a bed of coals established. When you have accomplished that, find smaller pieces of partially seasoned wood and add them. Once they're burning, you can add larger pieces.

After 10 minutes or so, look at the ends of the larger pieces to see if there is a brown-colored watery foam bubbling out from the ends. This is the stage in wood-burning when the heat of the fire is causing the free moisture to "boil off". This process uses about 1/8th of the heat energy, and the smoke from the "brown foam" is what contributes to creosote buildup in chimneys.

If you have space, bring in enough fitted wood for three days of stove-side drying before it is to be burned. And don't forget to keep the fan going 24/7 to push that heated air through the stove-side pile.


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## Huskurdu (Jan 7, 2011)

pybyr said:
			
		

> Hi Matt-
> 
> You mentioned that you use the side handle turbulator agitator, but have you actually opened it up and thoroughly cleaned the fire tubes?
> 
> ...



At the risk of further proving my ignorance.......I cleaned my hx tubes for the first time this last summer (after 2-1/2 years).  Some of you might remember that I bought my Eburn 150 used.....you might also remember that my first year wood was not ideal.  I found that two of my 4 tubes were completely plugged on the bottom.  Probably caused by improper cleaning of the ashes in the bottom chamber.  I do not know if this was my fault or not.  I had to jam the 1/4" rod through it to break it up before I could wire bruch the tube with a drill!!  All 4 tubes had 1/8" to 1/4" creosote on them (whatever the gap is from the turbulators to the I.D. of the tubes.  I would highly suggest inspecting those tubes to see what kind of buildup you have.  I am quite embarassed that I let this happen and hope that it helps you in some way.  My wood usage has dropped this year, I have no clue how much.  I used about 13 cord last year and would like to get it down to 7-8 some day.  I do love these $10 gas bills I've been getting.  It really beats the $800-$1000/month alternative.


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## mr.fixit (Jan 7, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Thanks for telling me what I already know Seyiwmz... If I could, I would.  I "thought" I was doing the right thing by having the state weatherization program "weatherize" our house.. I'd have been better off leaving it un-insulated.. Take this as a note folks, an un-insulated house CAN be warmer than a house done improperly.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I'm stuck with what i've got... I used up my entire savings account putting this cure-all, end-all system in place. So now I'm stuck and HAVE to make it work for me.
> ...


I aways think of adjusting a cutting torch flame(way back when)When you only had the acetelene turned on you got a large,yellow flame with soot--when you turn up the oxygen you get the tight blue flame.I know there are technical terms but I cant remember them from highschool!Any way I would try opening the primaries more.I wouldnt worry about how much smoke your seeing in the loading chamber,it all changes when you shut the door and close the damper. I just reloaded at 11;30 and as I sit in my chair eating and trying to type I can see the top of the boiler chimney through the living room window(boiler in detached garage)and all I see is heat ripples.Nice.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 7, 2011)

:grrr: :ahhh: :shut: 

Holy crap, Batman! You are stubborn for holding out this long!

Look, I know nothing about Eko's, Storage, or NoFo's controller system. But I've heard enough about each one to guess that the system you have should work fine.

I burnt some of the worst wood you can imagine the first year with my GW. But 20 cord?!? I'd have to kill someone. Quite possibly myself :-/ 

So what I will say is very basic stuff:

Can you consistently make 180* water? I'm guessing not.

Improve wood quality. I would buy a cord of good HardWood-easier said than done, possibly. Cut-offs and slab and other uglies have never worked for me. I found that I could burn Hemlock slab . . .until it dropped below 25*

Once you have 'good' fuel (possibly alternative sources as mentioned by others) start eliminating loads until you can maintain 180* water.

SWAG method - I'm gonna say you have a problem with the way storage is hooked up (are the tanks prioritized or is the house?) or that shop slab . . . tell us more about the shop slab. You said that prior owners heated the same house with less wood. Were they heating this shop? What happens if you shut down the shop?


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 7, 2011)

Are you sure your upper damper door is closing all the way?


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## Fred61 (Jan 7, 2011)

Perhaps you should search for something that is restricting your primary air. Something that you wouldn't think would go wrong. Like checking that worthless flapper on the incoming air to see if it is stuck or some restriction in the primary air tubes. I think checking the fire tubes would be a place to start.


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## leaddog (Jan 7, 2011)

Wet wood will make you burn more probably more because it won't COAL properly. I have an eko-80 and have used some wet wood and dry wood and there is a WORLD of difference. That said here is my suggestions.
Split your wood as small as possible and stack as much as you can near the stove to help dry..
Adj your output temp so you have atleast 180* leaving the boiler. 185* is better. My boiler runs way better at 185* leaving than 165*. The reason is the wood in the top chamber is drying and coaling better. 
Get a stack temp probe if you can and watch the center stack temp. You can tell alot on how it's burning with those readings. Try for 350-425 readings.
Make sure you have a GOOD coal bed going before you load it up with wood that isn't dry or you will never get good gasification as the moisure will cool the fire down to much. If you have to put in just very small load of the wet wood untill you have a GOOD bed and then add wood.
If you don't get a good bed of coals these will transfer heat only thru the top chamber and are even less efficiant than an owb.

One other thing. You said you have lots of flame in the top chamber. If you have flame imediantly on opening the top door you must have a door seal or the draft cover isn't closing all the way. You should only have a fire on the bottem of the upper chamberand when you open the top door you should have to just crack it for several seconds because other wise you WILL get a back flash when the smoke and gasses flameup. I have had to open it up and let the fire build up in the upper chamber and then close it down several times when I have filled it with wood and didn't get a coal bed first. Each time I opened it I then had to shake the logs to help get a bed under the nozzles. This goes back to my bad habits starting fires in an OWB.
Hope this helps. There is light at the end of the tunnel even though you can't see it yet. If you need to pm me and I'll send you my ph no. and maybe I can help that way.
leaddog


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## taxidermist (Jan 7, 2011)

Also Matt I have been using 20 to 30 % wood and I can still heat my storage 1000 gal to 180* Wet wood = more air.


 How much total are you trying to heat? Drafty house, milk house and a shop?  Are they zoned or do they all get hot water all the time?


Rob


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## slowzuki (Jan 7, 2011)

From a guy who has burned a lot of wet wood, and has burned blocks,

Bring a load of the blocks inside somewhere, restack with one edge up, so there is an air space between each one.  They will never dry flat stacked.  Alternatively, see if the mill has a kiln and can run a load through.  At 30% moisture they will cause enough burning problems to likely double your wood consumption.  My wood stove inside will burn some really wet wood, but I've learned its pointless, it cuts the stove output to less than 1/2 and as little as a single load will significantly clog my chimney.

Honestly if you can't get ahead enough to burn dry wood, you should buy some coal or biobricks and let what you have season.  You're only comfort is an OWB would use at least as much wood as your setup now is using.

This might seem counterintuitive, but is there any softwoods around there?  They are a lot easier to dry inside in the winter and could give a source of light off wood to get things started.


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## Duetech (Jan 8, 2011)

Ok Matt I have heard it here and you reminded me of it too. My EKO40 has the turbs for cleaning the boiler hx tubes and that usually does it BUT. EKO used pins and cotters to hold the turb blades on the turb shaft. I was getting smoke and off color fire. I popped the access cover off the top-back of the boiler (with the boiler shut down) so I could look at the hx pipes and found two of the turb blades stuck in the tubes completely disconnected from the turb agitator shaft. I had to twist one of them out while pulling almost the whole length of the tube the other one was only for about half of that distance. The bad one I had to use visegrips on and a hammer at first just to get it moving. I went to 1/4" ss bolts and lock nuts (non nylon of course). Disassembly and reassembly got a lot more difficult but corroded cotter pins took a hike and never returned. I had to build a special tool to ream the heat tubes (3' x 5/16" rod with a large washer ground down to fit in the tube and not score th sides the tip with the washer looks like a flat circle with a shaft sticking out of it flatwise [go figgur??]. the washer was welded to the shaft. To do that I had to cut a slot in the bottom of the waser for the shaft to fit in) The tool fits in the cordless drill and cleans the tubes in seconds. Smoke and gasification problem solved. At the time I had been using less than ideal mc wood. Hope this helps.


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## Hydronics (Jan 8, 2011)

Have you checked your secondary tubes to see if they're aligned with the holes in the refractory? Grainger sells a very small flexible end pen light that you can put in from the nozzle. Take off the front panel and look into the secondary tubes and verify light is coming in from each hole.
Are you making sure both nozzles are covered with coals before walking away?
For what it's worth; I understand your frustration. Hopefully you can get it sorted out, I'm quite satisfied with my EKO 60.
Best of luck to you.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 8, 2011)

A similar thread started up https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/67760/  . Using the numbers from that thread I revised my settings.  I am getting better gassification now.  We can all learn as we go along.  I hope this weekend and the help from the forum will get you to a better burning state.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 8, 2011)

OK.

My EKO 60 is out in an outbuilding that's just barely big enough to fit a person in there with the boiler.. So now possible way to really stack any appreciable amount of wood in there. 

The house, shop, and milkhouse only get hot water circulated to them on-demand. The house heat and milkhouse heat are the top priorities.. Milkhouse DHW, shop floor, and storage are for when there is ecxess heat available or whenever the stove is hot enough and one of the priority zones are not demanding heat.

I went out and cleaned things today. My chimney is clear all the way to the top.. I can see up it. My stove pipe amazingly was clean with NO fly ash accumulation in it. I also noticed I have a tremendous draft in that chimney.. Felt like a wind blowing up it when I'd stick my hand in there.

My HX tubes had nearly a 1/4 inch of junk accumulated on em. I welded a small wire brush on some rebar and ran it up and down each tube. Also took a hand wire brush to the turbulators and knocked all the junk off them.  I removed all my refractory blocks from the bottom chamber and thoroughly cleaned that as well.

I used enough kindling to cover the bottom of the stove, then added about 10 lbs of charcoal on top of that. I let this mixture burn for about 20 mins, then added about 6 blocks of wood. After an hour or so, I filled the stove half full. When I closed the bypass, I'd get a roaring yellow flame that lasted the whole sum of about 30 seconds and died down to 2 little flames that barely extend out of the nozzles. My Combustion chamber thermocouple reads 1190F right now with my stack at 429F. I opened my primaries up to 5/8 inch (there were about 7/16) I know my secondaries work because multiple times I've stuck my hand in the nozzles when the fans are running (stove cold of course!!) and can feel air come out of the secondary ports.

I just reset my NFCS unit to 150F minimum for return water. We'll see what that accomplishes for us.

So far, I spent my afternoon in a grand waste of time it seems, though my stack temps are down so I'm at least getting more of my heat out of this inefficient burn.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 8, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> OK.
> 
> ...I also noticed I have a tremendous draft in that chimney.. Felt like a wind blowing up it when I'd stick my hand in there.
> 
> ...When I closed the bypass, Iâ€™d get a roaring yellow flame that lasted the whole sum of about 30 seconds and died down to 2 little flames that barely extend out of the nozzles.



Do you have a barometric damper on your flue?  You may have TOO much draft, drawing the fire and heat out of the boiler.    They are easy to install with a T at the output of the stove or bottom of the stove pipe.  You set a weight on the damper to adjust the draft.  The manual has specific specs on the draft requirements and you can have too much draft.  I have attached a picture of my setup.  They are common on oil burners (so I am told).
When I adjuted my settings tonight I had a cycle like yours, immediate big flame, little (or no flame), then it settled down into a medium flame in the picture.  Others can chime in on your "Combustion chamber thermocouple reads 1190F right now with my stack at 429F" since I don't have any instrumentation (yet) but it sounds like you are in the right ballpark.


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## willworkforwood (Jan 8, 2011)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> deerefanatic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1  No fly ash is another sign that the draft may be sucking the life out of the fire.  You could run an easy experiment by setting a piece of plywood on top of the chimney, with a hole cut in it smaller than the pipe, in order to stifle the draft.  Maybe try a couple different size holes to see if one of them really boosts the fire.  If it does, then you can go with the BD as Hunder said above.


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## NNYorker (Jan 8, 2011)

Is your stack temp. higher than normal? Easy check here--don't know how the EKO bypass damper in the top chamber closes but.....creosote or possible loose hardware (happened to me before on my ECO) will prevent the damper from closing completely. Can you close the damper while the top/loading door is open? If not closed completely it will allow your fan to blow everything out the top and you'll never get the full out gasser flame in the combustion chamber. You'll get the lazy flame in the bottom and it'll take forever to get up to temp. Open the loading door and close the bypass if you can to check it out.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 8, 2011)

OK......

I didn't think of the fact that maybe I had too much draft. Never really occured to me. I do know that the one reason I never installed a barometric damper was because my EKO came with the electric draft inducer... Which is a joke.  I've seen those inducers before where they just attach to the outside of a stovepipe... Would be an easy thing to try I suppose.

It's still suffering along right now... Combustion about 1181 and stack at 455.

Now, for the bypass damper... It "appears" to close tightly. I had the cover above the heat exchange tubes off and it looked like it was sealing up. Yes, I can close the damper when the loading door is open... Not that it tells me much. Just makes it smoke harder out the door.


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## salecker (Jan 8, 2011)

Hi
 Just a quick hint on dry scraps of wood,the place i got the trusses for my house had a big bin full of the cut offs from the truss plant.They had it outside thier fence with a sign free wood.Might be worth a few calls.
Good Luck
 Thomas


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## deerefanatic (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for the tip!

Just got in from stuffing the boiler full. I'm now getting bright blue flames down below. The elevated water temps must be helping that. BUT, I'm still getting smoke from the stack... So something's still amiss. Right now combustion is around 1480 and stack at 490F..... So stack is plenty hi... Guess I'll have to look into a barometric damper...


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## rkusek (Jan 8, 2011)

Is your boiler circ still set to come on at 160F?  I noticed a big difference last year when I set the controller to come on at 165F with only a 5 degree band.  Last year it seem like it would never go above 160 because the load would always drag it down.  My wood was not seasoned that well last year compared to now too.  It might help you keep that gasification going.  I'm trying to picture your setup with the P/S, NCFS, and bang-bang all together.  How about just a quick description in words?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 8, 2011)

Sorry Matt about the frustrations. While I'm sure your wetter than desired wood is contributing, I doubt thats the main problem.

I just don't get this obsession with low temp output. People claim its more efficient. I don't agree. Seems to me especially when you have storage. Get the output temps up around 190-200.

After having let my fire die down too far this AM, I watched in pain when the inside loop came on with the wood boiler at 160. Drop like a stone. When the wood boiler is up to temp (180) there is very little fluctuation, just the swing of the aquastat.


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## jebatty (Jan 8, 2011)

> BUT, Iâ€™m still getting smoke from the stackâ€¦ So somethingâ€™s still amiss.



Are you sure it's smoke? You're a good way north in WI, weather has been cold, perhaps it's mostly if not completely steam. My Tarm gassifies superbly. Roughly, at outside temps of +25 or so and higher, no visible "smoke" from the stack, but as temps drop, and especially now with temps of +10 and below, there nearly always is "smoke" from the stack. Yet, can't smell smoke, it quickly disperses, and it's very thin and quite wispy. This is steam, a natural product of combustion. 100% combustion might be considered only water and CO2.



> I just donâ€™t get this obsession with low temp output. People claim its more efficient. I donâ€™t agree. Seems to me especially when you have storage. Get the output temps up around 190-200.



Yes, no and maybe. I think we all pretty much agree that in connection with HX efficiency, other things being equal, a greater delta-T is more efficient in transfer of heat. In connection with emitters, hotter water temps are needed for some emitters to perform to expectation and lower temps for other emitters. Case in point: baseboard -- most, especially older styles, need hot water input at about 180F or more; but pex in-floor radiant functions very well with hot water input of 100F. So with output temps, it all depends.

Yesterday I ran my storage up to 190+ top to bottom, I have pex in-floor and mix supply to 100-105F, and with that much storage of btu's I will have at least 2, maybe 3 days, before I have to fire the boiler again (although -17F is tonight's forecast). But moving the tank from 180 to higher is a bit of finesse to avoid any boiler idling, mainly because HX transfer efficiency is reduced, and flow rates cannot be increased sufficiently to still handle the high boiler output with lower delta-T. 

To each her own, boiler performance and user expertise varies greatly, and the outcome is a wealth of info to help all of us do better, try different things, have fun, and be in heat more often.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 8, 2011)

It may have been steam. BUT, it didn't dissipate very quickly.  It was a bit breezy last night, but that "smoke" would be visible for 50 feet before it would dissipate. But, it may have been steam. i'll try and take a video today and get it on youtube.

Yes, my pump still comes on at 160, but my return temp has to be 150 or higher, so my boiler right now is maintaining 170F or higher all the time. 

As of this morning, it's still not caught up. No heat in storage. Although the shop and house are running hard because of getting so far behind. 

We'll keep pluggin' with this thing and see if we can get ahead today.


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## Rick Stanley (Jan 8, 2011)

I have a Garn that advertises as "smokeless efficient wood heating systems", BUT you gotta have good dry wood to be really smokeless. I get smoke at the beginning of a burn, regardless. After it gets going, it is smokeless if the wood is dry. If not so dry, I'll get smoke longer. Also, if I get a log hung-up on the edge of the firebrick it will lay up there and smolder after the main fire has burned out. If I burn really iffy wood, it will smoke some during the whole burn. 
    Steam is a different thing. That will appear regardless of wood condition. It is more dependent on air conditions, like temp and humidity.
     What I'm calling smoke is gray or blue and hangs in the air, especially if there's no wind. Steam is very light gray, almost white, and dissipates very quickly. I think color is the key.


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## bigburner (Jan 8, 2011)

I have been following this Topic - I don't know anything about your model stove but it sounds to me like you can't prove what  your heating load is. By measuring the GPM and knowing the temperature difference in inlet /outlet  you can figure the output, in a low mass boiler it's almost BTU for BTU of the fuel output, then you could figure the wood used if you wanted too. My thoughts are that for what ever reason this thing can't achieve the velocity required for glassification or has to much velocity. "Working like an OWB" Steam isn't  smoke, it's  pretty clear - the steam won't travel more then 5 ft from the chimney before teat's invisible.


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## djblech (Jan 8, 2011)

Deere,
You said you were heating a radiant slab right? Are the radiant tubes in the concrete or in the sand under the slab? I had a problem with my front and back porches with tubes under the slab.(Which was the industry standard at the time I installed it) I couldn't put enough heat in those two zones, so my boiler was constantly trying to catch up. You may not want to hear this but I abandoned the radiant zones and installed 2 cast iron radiators, what a difference. I don't know if this has anything to do with your problem, but it seems like something is stealing all your heat. Maybe try shutting down some zones until the boiler comes up to temp and then open slowly.
Doug


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## dirttracker (Jan 8, 2011)

I've found that the "steam" in the exhaust can stick around fro quite a while especially if the air is cold and the wood is on the high end of MC. If you look at the chimney when there is not much wind there should be some clear space between the top of the chimney and the start of the steam. If the exhaust is white coming right out of the chimney then its smoke. I always get a little grey tinge to the exhaust early in the burn, it's only noticeable in direct sunlight. I get a considerable amount of steam early in the burn especially on cold days  - probably a sign that my wood is not as low in MC as it could be. I suspect you will see steam anyway when the ambient is below 25 or so no matter what.

If you got rid of 1/4 inch of crud on the boiler tubes you should be getting much better heat transfer in the boiler - cleaning them was not a waste of time!  FWIW your stack temperatures look good to me. I get in the 400 - 500 range usually, higher if I need to clean the tubes. 

I don't have a combustion temp tc on mine, but if you're getting ~1200 F in the chamber you have to have at least a bit of secondary combustion going on.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 8, 2011)

Yes, I think it is steam. I starts to appear an inch or two away from the chimney cap.. And it's white. Or pretty much white.

Yes, the radiant slab was a poorly done tube-in-sand job.. Very, very slow to recover.  It's risen the slab temp 2 degrees in the last 18 hrs. From 55 to 57 or so. That's with 145F water going into it. (mixing setup) But, up till this week, I was keeping up fine. Yes, the shop is way down on temp.. Because for the last 6 days it's been a fight to keep the house warm. So the shop gets colder and colder... 

Yes, I get "some" secondary combustion, but the flames are very tiny, barely extending out of the nozzles, and right now I'm only getting about 1150 F combustion. Way less than the 1600+ we're shooting for.

I'm pretty much done with this thing I think.. My source of cheap wood appears to have dried up.. (the sawmill is now chipping everything on a woodchip contract) I just found this out today. I simply cant put up enough wood out of logs to keep up. And if I pay someone with a processor to process it, I'm at 100/cord for wood.. Consider the burn efficiency, and it's almost up there $$$ wise with coal.  I'm either going to get a huge OWB that I can chuck whole hunks of log into, or a pelleted fuel boiler of some sort (wood, corn, or coal)

I guess, keep your eyes peeled in the classifieds next spring as there could possibly be a 2 seasons old EKO 60 and a 1200 gallon stainless storage tank covered in Corbond for sale.


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## Fred61 (Jan 9, 2011)

Even though you've decided to give up, why don't you get out and scrounge a couple days of well seasoned wood and try it. I wish I was your neighbor. I bring over a few days of my dry wood, fire the beast up, and sit in front of it and watch what happens.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 9, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> Even though you've decided to give up, why don't you get out and scrounge a couple days of well seasoned wood and try it. I wish I was your neighbor. I bring over a few days of my dry wood, fire the beast up, and sit in front of it and watch what happens.



 . . . and shut off the shop slab, shut off the storage, and watch the relief on the collective faces as the he fire rip, delivering 190* water and the house is finally warm. Then go from there.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Jan 9, 2011)

I can relate the struggles you are having as I had to deal with them when I had my EKO40 also.

This is why I sold my EKO40 and recently installed an Effecta Lambda gasification boiler.

This primary and secondary draft controls on my new effecta adjust constantly to maintain optimum efficicency and high quality burns (a Lambda sensor in the chimney exhaust continually reads the CO2% and via. the motherboard/control panel constantly adjusts the stepper motors). Thus, the quality of the wood is still very important but the Lambda system will correct automatically if the wood is of higher moisture content. I am able to mix geeen poplar (it fell down 2 months ago) with my 1 year old maple and I never have problems with smoke or other related issues.

Please feel free to PM me as I can help you to get your EKO running better.


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## henfruit (Jan 9, 2011)

Matt are you the guy that built his own gassifier boiler a couple of years ago ??? What happened to that.


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## ihookem (Jan 9, 2011)

To the last poster, what is your boiler prices? Also, Deerefanatic, there is no way those insulators did a good job. Look in the attic, if ya don't have 16" of cellulose in the attic they cheated you. Should have put it in the walls too. Basement should be well insulated in between the joist too. One way to tell is % moisture in your house. A well insulated house should be static shock free and have  water on the bottom of  your windows. A new wood burner may not help if there are other problems. Also, I get moisture out my stack when it's cold and dry outside. If it's 30* and damp ya don't see it. I would go as far as call your dealer, something is very wrong. I know it's a late post but hope it helps. I noticed you don't post anymore.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Jan 9, 2011)

I posted the photos of my new effecta boiler on the forum to share with others as I have not heard much about these boilers.

I don't want to make this look like a sales pitch and thus cannot give you pricing.

I would recommend that you go to www.effecta.us and look at these boilers and send me a PM if you have any questions.

NWM


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## deerefanatic (Jan 9, 2011)

I was the guy that tried to build my own. actually, it worked better than this eko at first..... But, it was not 100% water jacketed. Only the firetube exchanger was water jacketed. Because of this, the boiler warped horribly and basically fell apart. After that, I decided to not screw with it anymore and bought this EKO thinking that it'd be vastly better... It sorta is, but I guess I'm just sick of the battle... 

As a side note, I've started a different pallet of wood and I seem to be getting a coal bed back. I don't know what was up with that junk, but it wouldn't burn for $h!t...  Now, its at least keeping the house warm and slowly but surely starting to charge my storage.. So life is better now. Currently pusshing 1450 combustion and 525 stack (which I think is a bit hi, but whatever it takes)

As a side note, I'm not willing to shut down the shop slab. I work in there, that's where I'm making my money, and that shop is half the reason I spent all this money on this system instead of putting a new chimney in the house and continuing with the wood furnace that was in the place. (Existing chimney was leaking into the inside of the house)

Also, yes, I believe the attic is full enough. The house is such that only parts of it really have "attic" and none of the attic is accessible.. But, when we tore part of the roof off this fall, the small attic space was blown full clear to the peak. And as far as the walls, I watched em go around the house blowing it in.... And watched the stuff blow all over inside for us to clean up afterward. 

Here's a link to my website with pics of our place: http://icsrepair.com/farmtour.html Yes, the house is a pile.. You can say it. I already know. 

 Personally, I didn't want to burn wood in the first place. I was nearly set on going with coal, but the folks here got me set on going with this wood gasification stuff... Now I'm so far in, and not happy at all. I was basically content, but not impressed and wouldn't have recommended one of these to any of my friends or neighbors; all of which watch me struggle and tell me I should have just done what they did and get an OWB and I'd have a no-fuss no-muss setup, like them.. The worst part, is I can't argue with them. 

You mention I don't post anymore... It's true. I guess I've lost faith in this whole deal and just don't get on here anymore.. I only check in when I've got probs.. I nearly didn't even now, but was desperate. 

Thanks for the help guys.


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## willworkforwood (Jan 9, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> .... As a side note, I've started a different pallet of wood and I seem to be getting a coal bed back. I don't know what was up with that junk, but it wouldn't burn for $h!t...  Now, its at least keeping the house warm and slowly but surely starting to charge my storage....


Did that happen this afternoon/evening?  Weather data shows the wind speed for your town was quite low, especially in the last few hours prior to your post.  That might just be a coincidence, but it may be worth your while to try reducing the draft by partially blocking the chimney - nothing complicated, just a quick experiment.


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## Piker (Jan 9, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> As a side note, I've started a different pallet of wood and I seem to be getting a coal bed back. I don't know what was up with that junk, but it wouldn't burn for $h!t...  Now, its at least keeping the house warm and slowly but surely starting to charge my storage.. So life is better now. Currently pusshing 1450 combustion and 525 stack (which I think is a bit hi, but whatever it takes)
> 
> Personally, I didn't want to burn wood in the first place. I was nearly set on going with coal, but the folks here got me set on going with this wood gasification stuff... Now I'm so far in, and not happy at all. I was basically content, but not impressed and wouldn't have recommended one of these to any of my friends or neighbors; all of which watch me struggle and tell me I should have just done what they did and get an OWB and I'd have a no-fuss no-muss setup, like them.. The worst part, is I can't argue with them.
> 
> ...



I have been following this thread for a while now, just kind of waiting to see what you came up with.  The first paragraph I quoted of yours is very telling.  Very telling indeed.  99 times out of 100, when someone is having issues with output, it is solely related to wood quality and/or moisture content.  In the past I have had a few customers call me quite regularly with issues of low stack temps, mediocre output, excessive wood consumption, visible smoke from the chimney, etc etc... and every time I stop out to see what's up, it's ALWAYS the wood.  I take some of my own wood out or maybe a few biobricks just to show the customer what a difference a 10% (sometimes 15%) drop in moisture content makes (biobricks a different animal altogether at 5% mc).  They generally "ooh" and "ahh" over the performance of the unit with the good dry fuel, but then immediately go right back to burning the garbage that is the very heart of their frustration... still wondering why this wood they are using that "seems ok" just doesn't work.  I just don't understand it sometimes.  We all know that gasifiers are very sensitive to wood quality, but if they are fed proper quality fuel, their performance really does outweigh any hassle or planning it takes to procure decent firewood to fuel them.

The other telling issue is the 1/4" of crud that you got out of your heat exchanger.  A gasifier with storage should have nothing in the heat exchanger but a thin coating of fly ash.  Buildup like that is a sure sign that something is terribly wrong with the boiler mechanically, or your wood is complete junk... On top of that, if there was 1/4" of crud, which means a great portion of your heat is just flying right past the tubes, and your stack temps were only 400 or so... again... either something terribly wrong with the boiler mechanically, or your wood is total garbage.  The fact that this new pallet of wood seems to be making coals, burning better, and getting things up to temp leads me to believe that your problems are solely related to wood quality, and that the boiler is working fine... just not being fed the proper diet. 

The bottom line is... if you get good fuel, you will burn much less of it, and you probably won't be frustrated, or at least "as" frustrated.  The problem folks tend to have is not wanting to spend much, if anything, for decent wood... for some reason, wood is supposed to be free or at least almost free.  While it's true that perhaps sometimes the best things in life _are_ free... this is apparently not true of firewood for most people.  You either spend your dollars to have someone else supply it for you, or you spend your time to get it yourself.  You can replace the boiler with an owb if you like, but it's probably pretty likely that if you keep burning what you are burning, you won't decrease your usage one bit, and you may still struggle with keeping things up to temperature. 

As far as losing faith in the whole wood gasification thing... I guess all I can say is that there are tons of people who are having terrific success with their systems.  Right now we have a customer who is heating a decent sized farm house of around 2500 sq ft. plus a 3100 square foot pole building with 17' ceilings, and a "boiler shed" 24 x 24... all with a standalone system consisting of a solo plus 60 boiler and 1000 gallons of thermal storage.  Lately he has been firing 3 times per day to supply his demand.  That's a 6 cubic foot firebox 3 times instead of 2 firings with the 30 cubic foot firebox on his old outdoor wood boiler system.  It's a real success story... but... he has fantastic firewood.  His first couple of loads that he bought were great... around 18% on the inside.  When he got the last load, he suspected something was up because it was like the boiler just got kind of lame.  Sure enough, moisture content was up around 26 or 28%.  I have actually come to the conclusion that I should start commissioning boilers with both a load of unseasoned wood and a load of dry wood in the hopes that the difference in performance will leave an impression on the customer that they won't forget.  The difference truly is staggering.  There are certainly going to be people who will claim that they are using wood with a higher moisture content than what is recommended and that they are having success with it.  That may be true... I think in most cases their boiler is probably oversized for the application and they can get by with less than the greatest secondary combustion... but you can be sure that they are definitely burning more wood than they need to.  You can also be sure that if your boiler is sized very closely to the demand, that you will have to have really excellent firewood to make things work well.  It's just  a fact of life.  

With that, I will now digress.  My suggestion is that you sit back and kind of rethink things a bit before you make any big decisions or drastic changes.  I still think there is hope that you can at some point be satisfied with a wood gasifier for your application. I hate to see folks struggling, especially after having invested so much time, effort, and funds... 

Cheers


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm still not convinced that something isn't prioritized correctly, and I'd still shut the shop tubes off (possibly put an w2a emitter of some sort in there if you need to work in there) as a test, *but . . .*

I will concur with Pike. My first year with my GW I was daily wondering how I could have wasted my money on it. Now it looks like about 11 weeks and it will have paid for itself. While I would go a different route next time around, *I'd estimate 90% of my first-season troubles came from burning sh_t that looked like wood*. I guess I just thought since you'd been doing this awhile you probably were selecting better fuel than I did in year one. *And, don't forget, my style unit is touted as allowing the use of less desirable wood.*

I know almost nothing about coal, but I've heard it's heat output can be termendous. Just be realistic that people also have problems with coal.

Rock On!


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## Piker (Jan 9, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> I'm still not convinced that something isn't prioritized correctly, and I'd still shut the shop tubes off (possibly put an w2a emitter of some sort in there if you need to work in there) as a test, *but . . .*
> 
> I will concur with Pike. My first year with my GW I was daily wondering how I could have wasted my money on it. Now it looks like about 11 weeks and it will have paid for itself. While I would go a different route next time around, *I'd estimate 90% of my first-season troubles came from burning sh_t that looked like wood*. I guess I just thought since you'd been doing this awhile you probably were selecting better fuel than I did in year one. *And, don't forget, my style unit is touted as allowing the use of less desirable wood.*
> 
> ...



The only thing I will add to this, is that sometimes the customers who have the most "experience" with burning wood are the ones who struggle the most when they set up a new gasifier.    Old habits are hard to break, and what worked for 30 years with whatever their other wood burning stove or boiler was, just may not work with a wood gasifier.  You sometimes really have to start from scratch on a new learning curve, but once you get settled in, the rewards are pretty great.

Keep your head up... and don't give up.

cheers


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## Piker (Jan 9, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> *And, don't forget, my style unit is touted as allowing the use of less desirable wood.*



I have gotten to the point where I despise marketing attempts and slick sales attempts to sell a product based on it's ability to burn less than desirable wood.  Even the lambda boilers (and I own one) have got to have dry seasoned wood in order to get good results.  It's true that boilers like the Froling can adjust primary and secondary air to better accommodate different moisture contents, but we're not talking a 5% (kiln dried)  to 50% (green) range here... we're talking about from 5% up to around 20%.  Basically, the lambda boilers are intended to be able to adjust combustion parameters for wood that is within the range of moisture content for acceptable seasoned wood.



cheers


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## Fred61 (Jan 9, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> As a side note, I've started a different pallet of wood and I seem to be getting a coal bed back. I don't know what was up with that junk, but it wouldn't burn for $h!t...  Now, its at least keeping the house warm and slowly but surely starting to charge my storage.. So life is better now. Currently pusshing 1450 combustion and 525 stack (which I think is a bit hi, but whatever it takes)



Is this a pallet of those sawmill blocks stacked nice and square and tight with nearly no air space between them? Did you fuel the latest fire with the blocks that were on the outside of the stack? Your problems may return as you get into the stack.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree with you piker... I don't believe I've EVER burned wood with less than 20% MC. In fact, 75% of my wood is probably 25% or more.. I know this. I simply CANT get ahead! And as far as buying wood, there is NO seasoned wood to be had up in this area. EVERYONE has an owb, and even the ads you see in the paper saying "dry seasoned wood for sale" has been stacked "since last January" or the like... Trust me, I was down this road last year.... 

Let's do some math:

Going rate for cut & split wood to buy is $55-60 per face cord. Figure 2.7 face to the full cord (22 mill btus') That's $148.50

Now, 1 ton of wood pellets from the local mill is $189 and figure an average energy content of 15.5 mill

Now, with wet wood, we'll figure only 65% efficient burn so we get 14.3 mill btus for $148.5 = $10.38/mill
Pellets, being dry, figure 85% so we get 13.175 mill btus for $189 = $14.34/mill
We can throw anthracite coal into the mix at $345/ton for 28 mill @ 85% = $14.49/mill

Therefore Pellets are 38% more expensive than wood, with coal only being slightly more.. Coal has the advantage in that the price is pretty stable.. Wood pellets it remains to be seen how stable it is.

 But, a whole lot less messing around than wood.. But, to be realistic, I will probably due to economics be forced to continue the wood fight. So that's where I'm at.. 

The radiant in the shop will continue to stay on. I throttled my hot water supply being fed into my mixing setup. Boiler is happier, but the shop slab fell by a degree overnight. If that radiant setup proves to be unusable, I'd seriously consider ripping up the floor and re-laying the pex and concrete before I'd go to a hot air heater. I've been in shops with forced air.. Worked in one for almost 2 years. It sucks in plain english. The floor is always wet and slimy, never gets dry, etc, etc... Not to mention this stupid concrete is like all the other flatwork on this place, not level...... And flows AWAY from the floor drain.

And Piker, your success story about that large system with the Solo 60... Heck, I load my boiler more than that when it's in the 20's out.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 9, 2011)

As a side note also, I want to add that this isn't a new system I ran this entire system LAST winter, in COLDER weather than I'm having now with NO storage at ALL and actually made out better than I have..

I think that pallet of wood was mostly oak (I can't tell wood species to save my soul) and I was told by a friend that oak, even dry, won't sustain an appreciable coal bed.. So maybe that was the problem..


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## deerefanatic (Jan 9, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> deerefanatic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, that's the stuff. I do leave air gaps between all the wood though... row stacking this stuff isn't really feasible because of the vastly different sizes.. And hence unstable stacks.


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## Fred61 (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm a little anal about drying wood. Most on this forum think I go a little bit overboard. Probably inherited from my father. He also believed that wood had to freeze one winter and go through two summers before it was dry enough to use. I'm a firm believer that wood doesn't dry properly unless the larger pieces are split. The smaller stuff, which I refer to as nosplits, I run the tip of the chain down the length of the piece to produce an opening in the bark. It makes a big difference. On some woods the bark is more waterproof than others, like birch for example. Hey here's a novel idea: let's start making canoes out of birch bark. Cherry is another example. I never leave wood laying around on the ground. Get it split, stacked and undercover ASAP with good air flow.


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## bigburner (Jan 9, 2011)

FRED61 - I am the opposite  of you. un split, seasoned 15 minutes, piled out side. I do get to burn stuff most of you guys, would leave in the woods. I like dry wood, it does work better, just have never got ahead far enough. Heating 13,000 sq ft takes a bunch of wood!


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## mr.fixit (Jan 9, 2011)

Matt,where are you at with your primary air? Several posters(including me) have mentioned that wetter wood needs more air. Its easy to do so I'd try it. Maybe a picture of this wood you're trying to burn would also help us understand better? Do you fill the fire box complety every time?
I normally fill the firebox  full, I think  just the weight of the wood above helps keep the nozzle covered,kind of self-feeding.
Your tubing in the sand slab -is is insulated under the tubing?
And you mentioned the upper chamber having little or no fire, yes thats true- but you also need enough up there to generate enough wood gas.
Anyway were all just trying to help you stay warm!
(PS I like your house-new isnt aways better)


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## Fred61 (Jan 9, 2011)

bigburner said:
			
		

> FRED61 - I am the opposite  of you. un split, seasoned 15 minutes, piled out side. I do get to burn stuff most of you guys, would leave in the woods. I like dry wood, it does work better, just have never got ahead far enough. Heating 13,000 sq ft takes a bunch of wood!



It would take alot less if it was dry!


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## henfruit (Jan 9, 2011)

How hot is your tank getting? How well is it insulated?


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## ihookem (Jan 9, 2011)

Nice farm dude! Nice pics. you are lucky to hunt deer out your back door. I run 486 mi. round trip to hunt west of Phillips.  Out hunting all fall huh? Come winter your wood ain't dry. Been there, won't happen again. My wood honestly is dry as a can be. I have no problems. I can put small logs on ashes and it lights up. Makes for high stack temps and forgot to reduce air supply. It has to be dry and am sure it's 90 % of your problem. Also, If you run wide open there is no reason for storage. Shut it off and quit trying to heat it. There is heat loss in a 1000 gal. of storage too. Good hearing from ya Deerefanatic.


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## heaterman (Jan 9, 2011)

Matt, I've skimmed through this whole thread and I may not have caught some of the things you have tried but when I find myself in a pickle I have learned to go back to the basics. Some of these you may be able to do, like cleaning and basic air settings, and some you may have no control over at this point, like moisture content. But here's a few things to try.

#1 thing I would do is pull the back cover and make absolutely sure the flue tubes are spotless. The stack temps I saw posted are way to high. They should be in the 350-450* range under normal conditions in a good gasifier. When you start getting much above 500* it simply means that your efficiency is going down the crapper and a lot of heat is wasted up the stack. If your flue tubes are dirty it doesn't matter if the wood moisture content is only 15%, it'll send a lot of heat outdoors. period.  Clean 'em.  Running unseasoned wood means you will.....and I do mean absolutely will, need to check/clean the flue tubes once a month at minimum.

#2 would be to go back to the basic air settings as shown in the manual. Note that these vary a lot based on two things, chimney draft and moisture content. In your case I would probably advise using the settings for 35% MC unless you have a meter that you can actually check with. This would be 11mm on the primary, 4 turns on the secondary and about 3/4 of the way open on the main blower shutters.    The blocks you are burning will be quite wet and don't provide a lot of surface area/pound of fuel so err on the "too much" air side of the equation. The chimney draft is critical in that it works in conjunction with the blower and settings to regulate air flow through the firebox and secondaries. You, and everyone else for that matter, must have a barometric draft damper/regulator installed in the breeching pipe to keep the chimneys "pull" on the firebox consistent. If you don't have a regulator get one and set it to regulate the flue draft at -.06w.c" if you can. If you have to call a heating guy to get a gauge just do it. Draft is critical.

#3 Once that is done, I would bypass your storage if the piping design permits you to do so. Let the boiler work on just the loads present and see how it responds when you start with nothing drawing and then gradually add one load at a time to see what the boiler will maintain. Begin with the smallest load first ( maybe the milkhouse & dhw, the radiant slab, your house in that order.  Raise the setpoint as high as you can (this will take some experimenting) maybe on at 180 and off at 200 if possible. The greener the fuel, the higher you want to run it.    
  When it gets up to temp add the loads and adjust your load size and firing duration in such a way that you are able to always keep a bed of coals in it. If that means smaller loads and firing every 2-2-1/2 hours around the clock, that's just what you'll have to do. It's the price of burning green wood. Get a good fire established and then feed it small amounts often instead of trying to load every 6-8 hours. That will do more than anything to maintain enough combustion chamber heat to help things along.

#4. Understand that the loads you have may represent more than the output of the EKO is capable of meeting given that the efficiency is drastically reduced due to the unseasoned wood. I'm guessing your house at around 90-100Kbtu, the shop at 60-70, the milkhouse at 15 plus your domestic water. Those will add up to somewhere around 160-180 depending on outdoor temps. We've been below zero the last two mornings and I'm sure you have too so your heating load has been high.  If you figure the EKO in peak condition puts out 200K, then deduct 30% for poor wood and another 20% for dirty flue tubes you can see there is no way it is going to keep up let alone charge your storage. It's not going to get any down time and neither are you I'm afraid.  

#5 Decide right now if you are going to burn wood next year. If you are then begin the process of getting your wood lined up tomorrow rather than Tuesday. Make plans to get a good drying shed or room in the game and just do it. Right now you are in wood boiler h~ll and you don't want to repeat. The other option is to put the EKO up for sale and buy something like a Heatmor 600CSS or CB7260 then get ready to burn about 3 semi loads of wood each year. That's your options if you have to use unseasoned wood.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 9, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> As a side note also, I want to add that this isn't a new system I ran this entire system LAST winter, in COLDER weather than I'm having now *with NO storage at ALL and actually made out better* than I have..
> 
> I think that pallet of wood was mostly oak (I can't tell wood species to save my soul) and I was told by a friend that *oak, even dry, won't sustain an appreciable coal bed*.. So maybe that was the problem..



I know I'm an anoying prick, but . . . it worked better without storage. Something isn't right with your storage.

Seriosly, what kind of friend tells you oak doesn't coal. He wants your oak.


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## Sting (Jan 9, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> but . . . it worked better without storage. Something isn't right with your storage.



EXACTLY --- Ding Ding - We have a winner

The appliance is now seriously outmatched by the (added) load -- ok some might say -- Well Sting, Storage is not load

Hummmm --- so where then does the energy come from to charge the storage up to temp? 

Shop House loops + storage  = a struggling boiler making almost a 20% Delta T and still not catching up.


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## Piker (Jan 9, 2011)

Sting said:
			
		

> ISeeDeadBTUs said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That depends on how the storage is piped and how well the water can stratify in the tanks.  If the system only adds btu's to storage when there are excess btus available, then all should be well.  Assuming there are excess btu's available, then the heating load itself really shouldn't have changed much from last year unless their are significant standby or transmission losses from the newly installed storage.

Going back to the 1/4" of crud in the heat exchanger... something is wrong with the wood. That was the DING DING DING for me.  Not saying there isn't possibly an issue with the storage, but in no way shape or form should there be crud in the heat exchanger on a boiler running with storage... especially if the boiler is undersized and can't keep up... should be running hot and clean all the time.  

cheers


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## deerefanatic (Jan 10, 2011)

K, right now I've just come in from stocking her full.. 1589 combustion and 532 stack....

The boiler seems to be keeping up better... At least it's now forming coal bed. I'm into a different pallet of wood now and it's burning much better. Odd part is this pallet was stacked on the same day, out of the same trailer-load of wood that the previous pallet full from he!!... As SOON as I finished up that pallet and started this one, my problems reversed.. Hmm....

My storage is only heated by "excess" BTU's. Only will the storage pumps run if the primary loop temperature is above a set value (which only will be reached under low demand situations) And, I've got a variable speed pump controller that ramps heat exchanger pump speed up and down depending on boiler output temperature differential. So it's adaptive to boiler capacity and will not operate if there isn't excess heat available. 

As far as heat loss from my storage, I just got done spending $600 to have the tank sprayed with several inches of corbond in addition to the mediocre insulation it had.. (old milk tank) It can be 190 in there and it won't even feel warm on the outside.  :D

I have no idea if the under-slab in the shop is insulated. I wouldn't be surprised if it was or wasn't; either way.

No, my friend wasn't trying to get my oak.... LOL. He's got a Central Boiler and likes loading it up with rounds of green stuff... "Lasts longer" he says. haha

For the one who asked... Right now I'm at 5/8 inch on my primaries, 3.5 or 4 turns on the secondaries, 50% fan shutter, and 80% fan speed.  Seems to be gasifying fairly vigorously right now... 

I'll look into a barometric damper tomorrow... I'll need it if I go to coal, so that's not wasted money either way.

ihookem: No, didn't spend the fall hunting.. I don't hunt. LOL. Don't have the patience for sittin still that long. haha... If you like the place, I'll sell it to yah, EKO and all!! 

I don't think it's loads because my loads are staged.. My control system will jockey the loads to try and keep the boiler hot enough. With the house being top priority and storage being last.

Heaterman, I'd love to be able to start lining up next years wood.. I just found out that the guy is NOT chipping everything, just the real small blocks and slabwood. So I can still get the bigger pieces from him.... But not this time of year... The demand is hi enough this time of year that the cost is fairly hi. ($45/pickup load) I do have 4 cords of wood that went through a processor thats in a pile.. Not ideal, but I know better than to try and stack when the ground is covered in snow... Makes for a lively time of cussing and restacking in spring. haha

I'm leaning towards aquiring another boiler for coal and keeping the EKO if I can figure out how to swing it financially. This would allow me to use the wood and storage in the spring/fall and use the coal stoker for mid-December through February when its REALLY cold out.. That would cut down my wood consumption, allow me to get ahead on my stacking, and still not strap the budget as much as going all-coal (or pellets.. haven't totally ruled them out yet)...


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 10, 2011)

Matt - Can you spare some place in your shop to stack (on pallets) some of the wet wood?  With the radiant floor at 55 - 60 and just a little air flow you may be able to dry it out some more.  A "poor man's" kiln if you like.  You may want to load in as much as you reasonably can and then use in NEXT winter.  You could use some select pieces this year to get your fir started.


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## barnartist (Jan 10, 2011)

Wait a minute. Did you say you are not sure if your slab is insulated? Is this the slab you put the radiant lines in? If your slab did not have 2" insulation and the outer edges were not also insulated, add to that the unnecessary dump into storage tanks, add to that green wood, add to that the house that is not very well insulated....

Maybe I did not read clearly the whole thread. At this point maybe the title of the thread is a bit off. I dont know how to help-who helped you plan the install?


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## deerefanatic (Jan 10, 2011)

Yes, I probably could stack a few pallets in the shop... But they'd only be in there for about 5 days at my current consumption. 

Barnartist, I DID NOT DO THE RADIANT SLAB INSTALL!!

It was there from the previous owner... They had an OWB hooked to it when we bought the place, but they had been heating it with Propane up until that winter. (It was a really old, homemade OWB that didn't burn for crap, wouldn't stay lit)

It has 2" of insulation in the form of door cutouts from the local door factory all the way around the outside. As far as underneath, I only know what I was told and that was that the pex is in a 4" sand-bed under the concrete. That's all I know. Oh, and I also know that the 40x48 slab has 4 runs of 250' each of 3/4" pex-al-pex for radiant tube in it...

The rest of the system was designed, fitted and installed by me. I'll see if I can get my files out of HVAC Solutions (Software I used to design the system) printed out and posted so you can see my piping diagram.


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## barnartist (Jan 10, 2011)

Your install interests me because it sounds so much like my cousin who ended up selling his 60 for an OWB, Central boiler. His radiant floor was taking so much energy he could never keep up. ended up putting an air exchanger in and ditch the radiant floor sadly. He still uses tons of wood, but it fits him better because he was never going to get ahead enough on seasoned wood. 
I went through hell myself for my first 2.5 seasons, mostly my ignorance and having no help other than the seller of my eko. 

Maybe if you could run your floor on propane long enough to get a reading on how many btu's its using, it may have been suggested here already.

If yo u werent so far i'd come and check it out to try and help. If the under part of the slab is only sand and no insulation you will have to find a different way to heat it. Sorry if this is so.


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## heaterman (Jan 10, 2011)

Ditto on the slab install. If it's uninsulated you're screwed and you might as well get a Modine type overhead fan forced coil or find some radiators to install around the perimeter. 


As the original installer probably found out, and as my dad used to say, "Ignorance is bliss until it bites you in the a$$"


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## Sting (Jan 10, 2011)

If your serious about burning that lignite coal - in the quantity that you will need to burn

If you can find ( at least) a 300 gallon multiple pass fire tube boiler to set over it

If your tinkering days have not been used up and your interested

I have a million BTU input Iron Fireman under feed stoker with a bin feed in dry storage - the old boiler it used to fire is land locked in a basement boiler room so forget that.

But its operation will not be for the faint of heart - and I could not sell it to anyone who doesn't want to tinker - Iron Fireman has been out of Business for 40 years but Wilbert still has some parts - others can be made if you need em.

On the other hand -- It will carry this load with far less physical daily work

This summer we should chat -- I am only 3 hours south of you but lots to consider ???.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 10, 2011)

Yah, like I said, no idea what's down under that slab... I could possibly contact the previous owners and see if they remember... They've kinda disappeared.. LOL.

Sting, I'm gonna pm you my phone number.. I wouldn't mind chatting some evening....


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## musclecar joe (Jan 10, 2011)

easy enough to check what's underneath. just cut a 1 square ft hole and look. you might have 1 hour in it. take your time and just be careful not to damage pex lines. I would bet there is no insulation.

musclecar joe


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## huffdawg (Jan 10, 2011)

Drill into the slab along the perimeter and find out.   Usually the pex wont be closer than 9" inches. If you drill down next to the foundation you shouldnt have a problem.


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## mr.fixit (Jan 10, 2011)

I think the original title should of said "I hate burning@#$% green wood and I'm  going to try burning coal"
Heating with wood is not for everyone.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm not cutting into that slab.... Not happening.. I've got enough problems without asking for more... :O

I wouldn't even venture a guess how the PO's installed this or what spacing the pex is at... They seemed to do everything half-cocked.

Heck, look at all the houses in Levittown that were installed after WWII with no slab insulation of any kind... yah they weren't the most efficient, but they worked good too..  (Until the copper pipes broke in the concrete.. LOL)

I guess it comes down to the fact that while the manual and marketing literature for this EKO say it can handle up to 35% MC, it's a deal of "yah, you can do it, but sucks to be you!"

You can say that again that wood isn't for everyone... I nearly didn't go down this road and now I'm sorry I did.


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## stee6043 (Jan 10, 2011)

I've really found this thread to be a great read.  But I hate the title.  Me thinks the EKO is doing everything it can to keep up under some "less than ideal" system conditions...

If you ever decomission this thing put me first in line for your Nofossil controls setup!  Aside from that - I still hope you can make it work.  I like the idea above about ditching the radiant slab.  Gotta stop the bleeding someplace and I bet that would be the quickest...


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## barnartist (Jan 10, 2011)

Deer, you have to cut into your slab because you need to find out. There should be a safe place to drill. Maybe where the lines go into the floor you can see which way they go and find a good spot.
You said the owners do things half, whats the chances they spent the extra $ on the proper insulation? Heck I did not do mine right because I though "shoot i'll just throw some extra wood on" mentality. I ditched mine, my cousin ditched his and he spent some real bucks on his 60 X 40.

Can you measure the return temp compared to the supply on the floor? This will tell the story well.


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## Donl (Jan 10, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> I guess it comes down to the fact that while the manual and marketing literature for this EKO say it can handle up to 35% MC, it's a deal of "yah, you can do it, but sucks to be you!"





Where did you read this in the EKO manual?

This is what my EKO manual says:

Wood Fuel Considerations
Dry firewood wood is the recommended fuel source for the EKO boiler. The optimum moisture content
of the wood used to fuel the boiler should be between 15% and 20%. Hardwoods such as beech,
oak, maple, hickory, etc. are best. While it is possible to burn dry softwood such as pine, spruce, fir,
hemlock, etc., they will burn faster and require more frequent loading of the boiler than hardwood.
The best way to determine wood moisture content is with a moisture meter. As a general rule, hardwood
cut, split and stacked for
one year under cover is usually
ready for burning in an EKO
boiler. Wood properly stored for
two years is best. The manufacturer
and distributor cannot
be responsible for problems
related to using wood that is
not adequately dry or dense.
The length of the wood pieces
should be at least two inches
shorter than the depth of the
firebox


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## sdrobertson (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm wondering if you could run the slab temp lower and put in a air handler to make up that heat.  If you turned down the slab temp to say 50ish, this would still be warm enough to get rid of any moisture on the floor, and it will not be cold and clammy but it would take allot less BTU's.  If the slab is uninsulated, this would be less of a temp difference so it may help with that loss of heat.  You may even be able to run the water through the air handler, and then through the slab so it wont be much additional piping.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 10, 2011)

You've hit a crossroads . . .

You need to *know* what's causing the problem. Seems many educated guesses are the slab may be a big part. The 'shutting off the slab' is not a corrective action. It's a *test*. If your decision is that you don't want to shut down the slab because you want it warm in there, then the crossroads is a deadend. Get your coal boiler and waste coal instead of wood :smirk: 

Once you determine that a big part of the problem is the slab, then we can look at options to  get you heat in there without wasting your efforts.

But if you want to go on thinking that the EKO doesn't perform - in the face of overwhelming proof from many users here that it actually DOES perform - then there's not much left to say.


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## heaterman (Jan 10, 2011)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> Drill into the slab along the perimeter and find out.   Usually the pex wont be closer than 9" inches. If you drill down next to the foundation you shouldnt have a problem.



If you want to pursue that idea, I would suggest running the slab for a few hours then using an infrared "heat gun" to find the tubes. You should be able to pick out where they are with no problem. It's really not a bad idea to find out what's under that slab. Then you would have some guidance as to whether it should be abandoned as a heat source or continue using it.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 10, 2011)

haha. The Nofossil control system isn't going anywhere.. Wether I burn wood, pellets, coal, corn, propane, or used tires (just kidding guys), it's staying! LOL That thing is worth it's weight in gold!

Well, it's like this; that slab is barely keeping up as it is.. If I shut that slab off, within a day or two it's gonna be COLD in there (like, upper 30's). And I gotta work in there... I only heat that slab up to a max of 58 - 60 degrees as it is..

Water temps... I have a mixing setup for it. I've included a little piping diagram (made in MS Paint hahaha) The pump runs and circulates water around.. The gate valve is used as a throttle and is closed off partially to create a slight restriction. The zone valve pictured opens and closes to admit hot water into the flow to the slab. The zone valve is controlled by a PID control and attempts to hold the outgoing floor water temp at 145F. Now, the return will vary based on how long the heat's been on, etc and so forth, anywhere from 50's (when it first comes on) to low 100's.. It's got a 26-99 Grundfos on it, but it's pumping down 150 feet of 1" line both ways, so there's some flow loss there. Plus the gate valve for restriction purposes... So really, what flow I'm getting is a mystery to me, but probably at least 10 gpm... (I'm going on my memory of what my calculations in HVAC solutions told me... It's been awhile since I was in there working on this setup.)

So, yes, fairly large load.. Especially when it first starts..  

I guess, I'm not so much displeased with the EKO as much as burning wood in general. It really blows. My fascination with coal comes from the fact that it's still MUCH cheaper than fuel oil, and alot less screwing around than this wood.. AND, when I buy it, it's ready to go! There is no way on earth I can't keep this up being self employed. I'm glad I had a slow week last week, because with all the messing with this wood system, I'd be way behind on my work otherwise.

My frustration with the EKO was that it was supposed to SAVE me a bunch of work, and instead has cost me a bunch for my situation vs an OWB. Maybe it has.. Maybe it hasn't..  I have nothing to compare to other than the OWB that was on the shop and didn't work at all... (Old, homemade job, poor design... This thing had a reputation around the neighborhood)

I suppose, I've got a a friend that's got a stash of cast iron radiators that he's gonna put in his house.. Maybe I can "borrow" them for the rest of this winter to see how the shop works with them, then make my decision..


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## deerefanatic (Jan 10, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> huffdawg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've tried the infra red thermometer Idea.. Don't work.  They're too far down under the slab... The heat just spreads out.


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## Piker (Jan 11, 2011)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Matt - Can you spare some place in your shop to stack (on pallets) some of the wet wood?  With the radiant floor at 55 - 60 and just a little air flow you may be able to dry it out some more.  A "poor man's" kiln if you like.  You may want to load in as much as you reasonably can and then use in NEXT winter.  You could use some select pieces this year to get your fir started.



This is a very good idea.  I think your issues with hating to burn wood have to do mostly with the fact that you are burning way more than you need to because of the quality you are trying to use.   I keep going back to that crud in the heat exchanger that you removed... with that kind of buildup,I would think that you could easily be burning twice the wood as necessary based on what I have seen in the field.

cheers


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## djblech (Jan 11, 2011)

The problem is the radiant tubing installation in the sand. It is trying to heat the ground not the slab. I had the same problem. I had to force myself to abandon my radiant floors and install 2 cast iron radiators. I could actually use 1 more in the front porch which is 14x22 but I now have heat and my boiler isn't running constantly trying to keep up. It would probably help if you had 2" of foam at least 2' down around the sides of the slab. I had 1 1/2" of horizontal foam down 6", the 2" of sand, then radiant tubes covered with sand and I still couldn't heat it up. 
Doug


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## huffdawg (Jan 11, 2011)

What about laying 2" of high density foam , then some steel mesh , a re pex job ,and a 2" concrete pour on top of the old slab.    Would be a lot cheaper than another boiler. Might lose a little head room but a little less space to heat. :-/


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## deerefanatic (Jan 11, 2011)

Yah, stacking wood inside might work... But right now it's going by mighty fast...

Yah, foam underneath is doubtful... Foam around the side.... I have no idea how much or how deep.

A re-pour is intriguing... IT would definitely be a lot of work..  But not as much as knocking out the existing concrete. But, I'd think if you put the foam under the re-pour on top of existing slab, the weight would compress it to nothing...

Headroom is at a premium though.. It's only 12 foot ceilings and 11 foot door opening as it is... If I loose much more, it will severely limit to an even greater extent what I can work on in there....

Maybe dig out some of the perimeter foam and see what I have... Maybe if I go down around the slab it would help things some? Or will it not even pay for the cost of the foam board to do it?


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## deerefanatic (Jan 11, 2011)

Piker said:
			
		

> Hunderliggur said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Piker, what are you thinking? Just green wood or???????? I've tested several pieces. Most of this wood was only 28% moisture tops when I brought it home.. I've cut some open and it's running still around 25% to 28% on the inside of the piece.. This is larger pieces. I haven't cut open any of the tiny pieces... (Some of the blocks are only 2x4x5 inches or so)

As far as stacking, I can only spare room for maybe 2 or 3 pallets tops... Heck, I'm trying to get crap OUT of my shop right now... I can't be using it as a woodlot..


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## huffdawg (Jan 11, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Yah, stacking wood inside might work... But right now it's going by mighty fast...
> 
> Yah, foam underneath is doubtful... Foam around the side.... I have no idea how much or how deep.
> 
> ...



My shop is 24x36  after I leveled all the pit run and sand it took me about 4 hours to lay all the styrofoam,  mesh,and  pex tubing.
With the help of a friend . I poured roughly  4" to 6" on top of the stryrofoam.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 11, 2011)

You shop issue seems to be it has amassive heat loss.  No matter what you heat it with, it is going to take a lot of BTUs to get it done in its current situation.  A different fuel just means you will be paying a different supplier.  Based on what has been said on tis thread, your wood consumption would be about 1/2 if the wood was dry (20% MC).  You could invest now in some split wood and stack it on the property for use in one to two years (2 years is better).  Make sure it is covered and don't touch it.  Do what you can in the interim to heat.

To mitigate your heat loss you MUST have perimiter insulation around the shop.  Given your situation, 2 inches of DRY insulation around the foundation is a must and it should go down at least to the frost line.  If you do that, you could keep your shop slab at ground temperature (50 - 55F) in a steady state without much grief.  I like the idea of keeping the shop floor at 55F and then using other sources (water-air HX) to provide point of use heat when you need.  You may find you can go up a bit (65F) without too much problem. A decent compromise.  My basement slab (2500 SF) has only bubble foil insulation underneath and no radiant, but does have ICF walls with a total of 4 inches of styrofoam insulation.  I get very little heat loss though the walls.  The basement stays a constant 65F with no added heat except that the first floor above is 70F.   The topping slab over insulation is a great idea.  Just make sure that you use the correct foam for the load.

BTW - The price of coal is going up!  The floods in Austrailia hit their coal areas affecting worldwide coal supply, and US political pessures is making coal harder and more expensive to produce, if it all.  With less coal (or more expensive coal), petroleum wil go up, electricity will go up, etc.  Trees are one of our renewable resources.  I don't think you have enough sun or wind to heat the shop, let alone the house.


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## Nofossil (Jan 11, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> haha. The Nofossil control system isn't going anywhere.. Wether I burn wood, pellets, coal, corn, propane, or used tires (just kidding guys), it's staying! LOL That thing is worth it's weight in gold!



Man, I have been SERIOUSLY undercharging for that thing ;-)

Matt, I really hope that a series of fixes and tweaks can get this thing under control for you. Greener wood needs more surface area and more air. I finally have really dry wood and I'm running my primaries at 4mm. Back when I started they were wide open.


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## bigburner (Jan 11, 2011)

Ya lets spend a bunch more cash before we figure out the problem. The shop -- how many BTU 's are you sending to it ??? - measure the GPM and the split = BTU"s  Now get out the J-Manual and see how many BTU 's you should be using -- then decide if are wasting heat or not. 

  An uninsulated slab or tubes in the sand are not a huge deal unless the ground water in closer then 8 ft. A high water table will rob heat a low one has little effect.  Doesn't much mater where the tubes are - 2nd law thermodynamics [speed of transfer slows a little in sand]


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## woodsmaster (Jan 11, 2011)

Try to get some white ash if it's around your area. It's a low moisture wood and will dry to usable moisture fast.


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## RobC (Jan 11, 2011)




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## RobC (Jan 11, 2011)

> Itâ€™s got a 26-99 Grundfos on it, but itâ€™s pumping down 150 feet of 1â€ line both ways


Isn't 1" copper good for 70,000BTU's how many BTU's can 1" pex (I assume) carry ?
Try switching your zone valve mixing system to a radiant mixing valve to allow for an even flow of water into floor ?


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## bigburner (Jan 11, 2011)

BTU"S are based on GPM x spilt . Example - 6 GPM with a 25F spilt = 75MBH. The actual temp has no bearing on BTU's  But for water heat  a higher start temp with wider Delta-t is the most usable water temps, obliviously. Don't have the 26-99 curve in front of me, it might be a push to get 6 GPM out of that pump @ 300 ft Pex


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## barnartist (Jan 11, 2011)

bigburner, I wish you were right about the no insulation is not a big deal. I have to respectfully disagree.


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## bigburner (Jan 11, 2011)

Didn't say it's not always a big deal, we use it where required. You got any computer software for sizing in floor. We have used Wirsbo, Kitec, and a couple others. There is always a provision for ground water table. We always use under slab insulation [usually Dow board] for damp soils, and never rely on bubble wrap a insulator. The meat & potatoes of that post was to get him to figure the load and a high water table can be a big part of that load, but if he sets on a sandy hill, not so much.


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## Sawyer (Jan 11, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Yah, stacking wood inside might work... But right now it's going by mighty fast...
> 
> A re-pour is intriguing... IT would definitely be a lot of work..  But not as much as knocking out the existing concrete. But, I'd think if you put the foam under the re-pour on top of existing slab, the weight would compress it to nothing...



Matt, my Garn (approximately 19,000#) sits on 60 sq/ft of 2" foamboard   or 316# per sq/ft.


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## Sawyer (Jan 11, 2011)

bigburner said:
			
		

> BTU"S are based on GPM x spilt . Example - 6 GPM with a 25F spilt = 75MBH. The actual temp has no bearing on BTU's  But for water heat  a higher start temp with wider Delta-t is the most usable water temps, obliviously. Don't have the 26-99 curve in front of me, it might be a push to get 6 GPM out of that pump @ 300 ft Pex



Uponor (300'/1/2" Wirsbo hePex@ .75gpm=5.7' Head loss  @1.5gpm= 22.36' head) Looks like about 13gpm at 22.3 feet of head on that 26-99.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 11, 2011)

OK, 

Pex from the boiler shed (where the pump is) to the shop is approx 150' one-way of 1" O2 Barrier Pex.. Then the floor consists of 4 runs in parallel, 250' each, 3/4" Pex-al-pex...

Insulating the perimeter to below the frost line would mean going down between 7 to 10 feet!  :bug:

The zone valve setup works pretty good as it stays open about 95% of the time.. The way I've got that gate valve throttled it will maintain a constant 145F water when the boiler is at 180 ish....

I don't think this (the shop) is helping me any, but the house is a pretty major load too, and I'm all out of money for working on any of this stuff as it stands.. Even after the so-called "weatherization" people were done, there are drafts in this place that will make a polar bear shiver...

I'm going to try and call the PO's today and see if they'll tell me how they did the shop.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 11, 2011)

OK, just got off the phone.... I talked to the PO's son. He told me there is no insulation at all under the slab... Plastic, but no insulation. And yes, the water table is fairly hi. We have very heavy clay soil around here, and our basement is constantly wet... So I think you guys nailed this on the head....

Ain't that cool.


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## sdrobertson (Jan 11, 2011)

Sorry to hear that Matt.  Not allot of cheap options I can think of except putting in a air handler.  You should be able to find a used squirrel cage fan and use a large radiator (bus or semi truck) and start moving heat to get you through the winter.  I know the floor will be cold, but you'll know if the boiler will keep up then even with less than perfect wood.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 11, 2011)

A friend of mine has 5 or 6 large cast iron radiators that he's going to put in his house... He said I can use them this winter as he's not going to get to getting them put in this winter... So that may work for this winter until I see what's going on....

For that matter, I have a good sized squirrel cage.. and a large copper radiator out of an old chevy truck.. Guess I'll get to work rigging that up.


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## slowzuki (Jan 11, 2011)

That copper rad should work well, sometimes on craiglist etc you can find old air handlers too.  I got a hx from a big chiller that goes in a duct for free from someone putting in a heat pump.


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## Sawyer (Jan 11, 2011)

Not to steal your thread Matt, but can an air conditioner coil be used for heating? Seems like it is still just a coil.


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## salecker (Jan 11, 2011)

Hi
 Depending on the insulation job done on the underground lines,they may be part of the problem.Especally if you  have moist soil.If you insulate around the shop slab,you can angle the foamboard away from the slab it will deflect the frost away from the slab,insted of going straight down the edge.
 Good Luck
 Thomas


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## barnartist (Jan 11, 2011)

Im confident now the post needs re-titled. However like a good newspaper story it does grab attention.


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## slowzuki (Jan 11, 2011)

Its just a heat exchanger.  The one I have couldn't handle the full output required for a shop but certainly could handle a room or two.



			
				Sawyer said:
			
		

> Not to steal your thread Matt, but can an air conditioner coil be used for heating? Seems like it is still just a coil.


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## mr.fixit (Jan 11, 2011)

barnartist said:
			
		

> Im confident now the post needs re-titled. However like a good newspaper story it does grab attention.


Yeah-the headline might read,"Wisconsin Man Heating The Ground With Wood Boiler Possible Cause Of Polar Ice Melting!"


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## Huskurdu (Jan 11, 2011)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Based on what has been said on tis thread, your wood consumption would be about 1/2 if the wood was dry (20% MC).



Is this really a proven fact?  That seems quite a drastic statement.  Just wondering as I'm using more than I'd like and will definitely buy a moisture meter is that is the case.  Sorry about the hi-jack.


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## Sawyer (Jan 11, 2011)

mr.fixit said:
			
		

> barnartist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got a neighbor with bubble wrap insulation on his underground that could share this title.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 11, 2011)

mr.fixit said:
			
		

> barnartist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I never laughed so hard! haha.. Does put things in a little more positive light. I would go and change the title, but actually, it may be good to leave it so other disheartened folks will read it and maybe see the errors of their ways, like I'm beginning to maybe see. 

Oh, the underground lines aren't the problem. They have 5" of corbond all the way around them... They don't even loose 1 degree down there. And they're 5 foot down

We'll see how this truck radiator pans out, then go from there with the decision making.


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## bigburner (Jan 11, 2011)

still would like to know the numbers on the shop, heat load verse BTUs being used.


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## Sawyer (Jan 11, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Oh, the underground lines aren't the problem. They have 5" of corbond all the way around them... They don't even loose 1 degree down there. And they're 5 foot down



I knew that wasn't your problem Matt, remember, you are the one that educated me before I buried my lines and I also do not loose a degree in 200'. I almost let my neighbor convince me to use the bubble, thankfully you and some others on the forum knew better!


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## Piker (Jan 12, 2011)

Despite the fact that there is a tremendous load on the boiler because of the uninsulated slab... there is still something awry with the fact that the boiler had 1/4" of crud in the heat exchanger.  A huge load, means nothing but hard firing... hard firing does not produce crud in the heat exchanger.  Crud in the heat exchanger makes for terrible heat transfer into the water, and is caused by poor combustion which is caused by either wrong settings or terrible wood.  Am I missing something?  Deerfanatic... you said yourself that the boiler was keeping up much better when you went to a new pallet of wood... you just can't ignore that.  Am I missing something?  

Not saying that the wood quality was the only issue here... for sure an uninsulated slab will use more wood than an insulated one.  Sounds like several things working against you.  With that... I digress.  
good luck


cheers


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## Piker (Jan 12, 2011)

Huskurdu said:
			
		

> Hunderliggur said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Going from what deerfanatic stated his mc content was (28%)... using half the wood by going to 20% is not accurate.  I had mentioned earlier that he could probably cut his wood usage in half by burning high quality wood and doing it in a clean boiler with the right setup.  This was a notion just taken from what I have seen out there first hand.  My gut instinct was that while some of the wood was at 28%, most of it was probably more.  I've seen boilers coated with terrible amounts of creosote before... almost always caused by green wood.  Cold combustion air into a dirty boiler coupled with green wood  is a recipe for massive wood usage.

cheers


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## deerefanatic (Jan 12, 2011)

Yes, you are probably right piker... I opened up my primaries too... I had closed them down in an effort to reduce my high stack temperatures.. But decided a clean burn with hi stack temps is better than dirty burn and having to scrub those hx pipes all the time...

I know this thing's throwing creosote.... I had a chimney fire in my stove pipe when I had the loading door open about a month ago... 

The radiant slab is now disconnected. I've got that old truck radiator hooked up and running... I'm just running the pump and fan 24/7... Basically, the floor did this same thing. Right now, my temp drop is about 7 or 8 degrees vs the 30+ degrees the floor was pulling... We'll see how hot the shop is in the morning...


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## Piker (Jan 12, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Yes, you are probably right piker... I opened up my primaries too... I had closed them down in an effort to reduce my high stack temperatures.. But decided a clean burn with hi stack temps is better than dirty burn and having to scrub those hx pipes all the time...
> 
> I know this thing's throwing creosote.... I had a chimney fire in my stove pipe when I had the loading door open about a month ago...
> 
> The radiant slab is now disconnected. I've got that old truck radiator hooked up and running... I'm just running the pump and fan 24/7... Basically, the floor did this same thing. Right now, my temp drop is about 7 or 8 degrees vs the 30+ degrees the floor was pulling... We'll see how hot the shop is in the morning...



I don't know for sure, but I think what you thought were high stack temps weren't really all that high for the unit.  I think I recall seeing some of no fossil's numbers being in the 500's, and the larger econoburn boilers (200's) that i have installed have stack temps well over 600Â° even with a clean heat exchanger.  I think your best bet is to shine that heat exchanger up spotless, and tune the air on the boiler to maximize the stack temps.  Burn hot, burn fast, burn clean.  With storage, there should be ZERO creosote in the stack.  None whatsoever.  

The most important thing here is to be able to look back and say that the cost of the system was justified, and of course to be able to live with the system from an operational and fuel usage perspective.  Just going by what I have read here, you haven't yet tapped into all that your system can offer.  I don't think it will take more money to make it work better, though that always helps... but it may take some thoughtful planning on the seasoned firewood issue, and of course a little trial, a little error (sometimes alot of error) and patience.  

good luck

cheers


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## heaterman (Jan 12, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> OK, just got off the phone.... I talked to the PO's son. He told me there is no insulation at all under the slab... Plastic, but no insulation. And yes, the water table is fairly hi. We have very heavy clay soil around here, and our basement is constantly wet... So I think you guys nailed this on the head....
> 
> Ain't that cool.



No need to discuss that any further. Ditch the infloor and find some rads. I'm willing to bet once that is accomplished you thing you have a different boiler. Why anyone would choose to not insulate a slab is beyond my comprehension.


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## free75degrees (Jan 12, 2011)

I might be thinking about this wrong, but doesn't the dirt under the slab have an R value, just not as good as real insulation?  Say the dirt has R value of .25 per inch and good insulation has r value of 3 per inch.  So the insulation is 12 times better.  You'd need 12 times as much dirt to equal the good insulation.  Well there is almost an infinite amount of dirt.  Once a good thick amount of dirt under the slab gets warm it should start to perform like a much thinner amount of insulation.  Is this wrong?


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## heaterman (Jan 12, 2011)

free73degrees said:
			
		

> I might be thinking about this wrong, but doesn't the dirt under the slab have an R value, just not as good as real insulation?  Say the dirt has R value of .25 per inch and good insulation has r value of 3 per inch.  So the insulation is 12 times better.  You'd need 12 times as much dirt to equal the good insulation.  Well there is almost an infinite amount of dirt.  Once a good thick amount of dirt under the slab gets warm it should start to perform like a much thinner amount of insulation.  Is this wrong?



Yes.  

Dirt is not insulation. It's more like a heat sink.  Your assumption is partially true if one was talking about pure sand................but wet clay like Matt is dealing with?  Nada, uh uh, no way Jose.


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## MaineMike100 (Jan 12, 2011)

Can't find the reference right now but somewhere I remember reading that wet sandy soil has an R value of 1 per foot, so it would take 12 feet of soil under the slab to get the desired R12 insulation.  Just think about heating that huge block of earth, the size of the shop X 12 feet deep, and arguably 12 feet laterally from each wall under the surrounding area.  Talk about snow melt!  I think the air handlers or cast iron radiators is the way to go to get you through the rest of this winter, then re-evaluate the slab repair options.  My .02


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## Fred61 (Jan 12, 2011)

MaineMike100 said:
			
		

> Can't find the reference right now but somewhere I remember reading that wet sandy soil has an R value of 1 per foot, so it would take 12 feet of soil under the slab to get the desired R12 insulation.  Just think about heating that huge block of earth, the size of the shop X 12 feet deep, and arguably 12 feet laterally from each wall under the surrounding area.  Talk about snow melt!  I think the air handlers or cast iron radiators is the way to go to get you through the rest of this winter, then re-evaluate the slab repair options.  My .02



You could be close to being right if you leave out the *wet* part. I've read alot of "facts" before but I wrote them down first.


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## leaddog (Jan 12, 2011)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> MaineMike100 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



all this might be right if the soil was isolated but that water is moving and it is taking every btu it can to who knows where.
leaddog


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## free75degrees (Jan 12, 2011)

ok i guess that makes sense if the dirt is wet.  12 feet is a lot and at that depth the heat gradient would be curved and you'd be losing a lot of the heat to the sides as well as down.


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## slowzuki (Jan 12, 2011)

I didn't insulate below my shop slab, but I have 3 french drains under it to 4 ft deep, 4" foam on the perimeter to 2 feet below grade, then 4 feet of 2" wings sloped out.

Below the slab there is 18" of sand, then vapour barrier.

It is unhooked right now, with just solar heating in the shop, the slab never gets warm.  On the other side of the wall in the living space, everything is the same except there is 1" of xps under the slab.  It heats up to room temperature with about a 12 hour lag.

I won't be heating the shop to much more than a few degrees above the normal soil temp because it will take too much wood.  I designed it like that because I was broke, and there is a break point in dry soil once you have enough square feet you don't need to insulate the middle if you have dry soil underneath.  Trouble is, my soil isn't as dry as I thought, water still wicks up between the french drains and carries my heat away!

Great for a geo thermal system, terrible for uninsulated infloor.


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## Fred61 (Jan 12, 2011)

I've owned three homes in my life and every one had wicking soil. You could use all the tricks available but none will stop the water from migrating. I could bulldoze a mound 7 feet high, cover it with a roof, dig into the top and hit very wet soil.


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## rkusek (Jan 12, 2011)

Sawyer said:
			
		

> Not to steal your thread Matt, but can an air conditioner coil be used for heating? Seems like it is still just a coil.



I am using an old heat pump outdoor unit (same thing as air conditioner  coil as far as I can tell).  2 years ago I was desparate to heat the pole barn with the EKO 40 since the Modine knock off I bought off Ebay was misquoted terribly as far as BTU output and wouldn't even come close to heating the 30x60x14 mostly un-insulated shed at the time.  My father-in-law knew a guy that had a scrap yard and sent me there.  He gave me the old heat pump condenser and a commercial air conditioner coil unit as well.  We hooked up the first one since it was all copper tubing and easy to soldier if it had leaks.  Well it never leaked and I only had to solder on a couple Pex fittings and it was good to go.  Even though the tubing is terribly small is some places this thing will draw a tremendous amount of heat from the water.  The water splits after the input into 2 paths that each cover 1/2 the coils but it is not the most efficient way to transfer heat but I didn't have to modify anything to use it this way.  If I took the time to cut and solder a manifold (like most Modine's are built) it could even put out more heat.  I did spend almost a $100 changing out the fan motor to an 120V fan from Granger.  This was totally unnecessary.  Even at the lowest speed it turns way too fast.  When boiler is hot and it is running it blows out lukewarm air.  However, the water going is very hot (170 degrees) and the output is ice cold (~50F or less)  I have 3/4" pex running to it off the primary loop.  I'm guessing the Delta T on this must be about 130 degrees!  I can remember having a the EKO 40 running full tilt with good wood and the barn was cool (50 degrees) and it would pull all the the BTUs the boiler was putting out (over 100k) since the temp hung in the 170s for several hours.  I never even hooked up the other commercial air conditioner coil that I got from the scrapyard.  Just got rid of it last summer.  I don't even run the big fan anymore.  I just circulate water through the unit and it acts like a big cast iron radiator and keeps the shop at 60 this time of year.  I may just get a box fan tied to a thermostat to lay across the top for a permanent fix when I get my storage set up.


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## Sawyer (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks, I have a coil available free. I think I will try this in my air handler. I would then have two coils. I have plenty of fan to handle the extra restriction.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 13, 2011)

Yes, I'm WAY down on wood consumption right now with the slab unhooked. I run the old truck radiator for about 3 hrs per night and it raises the temp 10 degrees. Couldn't do that in 2 days with the infloor!

But alas, the 1947 truck radiator leaks.  So can't leave it run all the time or I'd have no water left.  My friend with the radiators called me and remembered he had a commercial air handler hanging around, so I'm set to get that tonight or tomorrow.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 13, 2011)

Glad to here your on the right track ! Now maybe you can get ahead on wood.


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## pybyr (Jan 13, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm WAY down on wood consumption right now with the slab unhooked. I run the old truck radiator for about 3 hrs per night and it raises the temp 10 degrees. Couldn't do that in 2 days with the infloor!
> 
> But alas, the 1947 truck radiator leaks.  So can't leave it run all the time or I'd have no water left.  My friend with the radiators called me and remembered he had a commercial air handler hanging around, so I'm set to get that tonight or tomorrow.



Glad that things are taking a turn for the better.

Could you orient the air handler so that it could blow on a pallet of your wood chunks?  

That'd help dry your wood + humidify the shop, which would help comfort level.


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## slowzuki (Jan 13, 2011)

Is it on a fin? Pinch it off with vise grips on both sides of the leak.  Glad to here there is an improvement.  There was just a post on another forum I'm on, guy with bubble wrap only and high water table, dumping piles of propane into a boiler and couldn't get ahead.  He had spent thousands getting his boiler repiping, and messed with and was equally frustrated I'd guess.


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## Rick Stanley (Jan 13, 2011)

Glad you found the problem. This place is great isn't it.


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## rkusek (Jan 14, 2011)

Great news Matt!  My slab is not insulated either even though it was poured in 2008.  I was too rushed to find a home for your temporary home (RV) while new house was being built.  I had to scrap my infloor radiant because it was already mid NOV and I was getting a lot of grief from wife, family, and concrete folks  about the pex in floor.  That stuff is just starting to pop up around here and most people are clueless about the benefits or how it works.

Nevertheless, since we insulated the building walls (R19) and ceiling (R38) so well the homemade heater will turn it into a sauna if I want.  I still wish I could have insulated the slab but one benefit is that it stays cool for much of summer though too.


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## Hydronics (Jan 14, 2011)

Matt,
That's great to hear! I was feeling quite bad for you. Glad you can get an air handler for cheap.
This thread is getting some "air time" I must say...
If you can get your wood prepped in the spring and stacked/covered I think you'll be much happier next winter. Not ideal but 1 summer drying can work.


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## Pyromaniac (Jan 14, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm WAY down on wood consumption right now with the slab unhooked. I run the old truck radiator for about 3 hrs per night and it raises the temp 10 degrees. Couldn't do that in 2 days with the infloor!
> 
> But alas, the 1947 truck radiator leaks.  So can't leave it run all the time or I'd have no water left.  My friend with the radiators called me and remembered he had a commercial air handler hanging around, so I'm set to get that tonight or tomorrow.



Matt, I don't even know you but I'm way too excited that it's working out for you! That's what these forums are great for! When you have a problem and need to find someone with specific answers there's no better place to find it than on a topic specific forum. From the moment I saw your thread title I thought "These guys will get him turned around". Just like yourself I thought it was your wood(some), your house(a little), and your unit(a tiny bit, but only because of the huge demand/wet wood I'm guessing). After much discussion and you almost giving up on posting anymore was the "smoking gun" found that an uninsulated pad in a high water table is just sucking all your heat. Great thread. I'm glad you've found a solution without spending tons more money(can you imagine trying to heat all that ground with pellets or coal? ouch!)

Don't be afraid to make your shop a comfortable temp with an air HX. You'll never come close to the amount of consumption you were taking to keep it at 58 I'd think. Good Luck to you!


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## deerefanatic (Jan 14, 2011)

thanks for the help. Yes, I'm supposed to go get the air handler today. I've got a little 12x12 inch hot water coil right now and It's cycling on and off keeping the shop at 54... When I get that handler in, should be able to jack it right up there. 

Course, you need to keep it warmer with hot air system than you do with infloor for the same comfort level. But, still, it's going to be way less consumption that what I had previously. :D


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## Fsappo (Jan 14, 2011)

I had to wait till this thread was 11 pages long.  Without reading a single post, I would like to add:

Hat, lolz.


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## heaterman (Jan 14, 2011)

Matt, it appears that you are going the air handler route in your shop and I understand your rationale and the other issues involved in your case.

  I would however like to point out that a system using radiators and TRV's is much more "friendly" for any boiler system using solid fuel as the heat source and especially those that do not utilize storage. 

This is the main reason.
Visualize your boiler standing there with a load of wood in it, up to temp but idling. Now introduce a load that can use up about half the boilers output at full throttle. An "instant" load that comes on full draw all at once like an air handler. In your case the boiler will pump out 180-200Kbtu and the airhandler may draw 100K. Here's the sequence that I see time and again and it leads to poor performance and other problems.

1. The air handler/furnace with a coil, kicks on and introduces a substantial load.
2.  Assume that the boiler is in an idling state of operation.
3. Heat is drawn off and water temp drops after a couple minutes.
4. The aquastat on the boiler starts the combustion process after the load is present.
5. Being that it takes a few minutes to get a solid fuel fire going, much less up to full output levels, the boiler water temp drops to unsatisfactory levels.  (if a mixing device or pumped bypass is present you now have greatly reduced heat or even no heat going to the air handler) 
6. The boiler catches up after maybe 10-15 minutes of getting itself up to full burn and satisfying the heat demand.
7. The boiler cycles down wasting a fair amount of heat and inertia because the load is gone as with the same "speed" as it was introduced.

Now let's look at a Radiator/TRV system 

1. Assume you have iron column type or steel panel rads
2. The TRV's are constantly providing heat proportional to the loss of the space being heated. They are never "off".
3. Heating load on the boiler is constant, allowing the fire to cycle at a very even rate, maintain temperature and never get behind the curve. 
4. Water temps and combustion temps remain in a much narrower range greatly enhancing efficiency.

Proportional heating beats forced air any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


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## range patrol (Jan 14, 2011)

Hello Deer fanatic:
I just installed a Bio-mass boiler and I can relate to your situation. I'm burning dry wood,heaps of it,corn cobs, by the bushel and barely keeping warm. I just spent $25,000. insulating the house and I am using more fuel than I did with the old airtight with no insulation. Can't get it to burn clean.
 Now the firebrick has collapsed in the secondary chamber. This thing has cost a fortune. I just found this web-site. I'll see if i can get some help here.


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## rkusek (Jan 14, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Matt, it appears that you are going the air handler route in your shop and I understand your rationale and the other issues involved in your case.
> 
> I would however like to point out that a system using radiators and TRV's is much more "friendly" for any boiler system using solid fuel as the heat source and especially those that do not utilize storage.
> 
> ...



Great explanation Heaterman.  I'm hoping when i have storage online the issue you describle will not be quite as big an issue.  I think if I add anything down the road it may be some staple up radiant with plates.  Probably cost me less than rads and wife won't complain if she can't see them although I think they look pretty good.  It will probably take a couple years before that happens after a few other things get done.  The startup costs are so high with these systems.  The radiant floor comfort will be nice but I've also been thinking how great it would be if we ever lost power for 3-4 days in this weather.  Right now I would have to run a generator 24/7  just to power the air handler.  With a couple batteries and an inverter, we could have a warm house, hot water with only running generator periodically.


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## heaterman (Jan 14, 2011)

range patrol said:
			
		

> Hello Deer fanatic:
> I just installed a Bio-mass boiler and I can relate to your situation. I'm burning dry wood,heaps of it,corn cobs, by the bushel and barely keeping warm. I just spent $25,000. insulating the house and I am using more fuel than I did with the old airtight with no insulation. Can't get it to burn clean.
> Now the firebrick has collapsed in the secondary chamber. This thing has cost a fortune. I just found this web-site. I'll see if i can get some help here.



Hey Range Patrol.  Welcome aboard!

I'd suggest you start a new thread that will deal with your issue by itself. Mixing it in with this thread will be confusing to some people. 

Like me   

Give us a description of what you are heating, square feet, how it's insulated, what you are using for emitters such as baseboard, in floor or forced air and then the installation of the boiler itself.  Pictures are a great help too.

We'll see what we can do for ya.


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## deerefanatic (Jan 15, 2011)

Yes, I know forced air isn't the greatest. I do have storage though so that helps some. :D

Plus, right now, the air handlers I have will barely keep the shop warm, so they run quite a bit. Something will have to change before next winter, but this will help stem the consumption this winter. 

I'm thinking of moving the boiler into the shop. The stupid little outshed will hit 90+ when it's 0 outside, might as well have that heat inside.


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## Willman (Jan 15, 2011)

> Iâ€™m thinking of moving the boiler into the shop.



Great idea! Maximize your btu's. You will prolly even lower your wood consumption some,  especially in the shoulder seasons.
I am glad you had the wherewithal to publicly air your issues. Many people will be able to learn from your challenges.My self being one of them.
I can only add that it is time to start on the next two years of wood supply. After that your on ez street. The burning of the seasoned wood should also lessen your consumption. 
Just think what fossil fuel will be in 2 years time. If the emerging markets let us have any that is.

Will


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## woodsmaster (Jan 15, 2011)

You may want to check with insurance before you move it.


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## Duetech (Jan 15, 2011)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> You may want to check with insurance before you move it.



+1x10 After four years use insurance forced me to pull my EKO out of the garage even after they approved its location before selling the policy to me.


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## heaterman (Jan 15, 2011)

huskers said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The scenario explained above is why storage is so important to the owners satisfaction and a happy and long life for the boiler. I can't emphasize enough how important storage is in the overall performance of a solid fuel heating system. Using wood heat on a high mass low temperature system compounds all those issues


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## Donl (Jan 15, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> The scenario explained above is why storage is so important to the owners satisfaction and a happy and long life for the boiler. I can't emphasize enough how important storage is in the overall performance of a solid fuel heating system. Using wood heat on a high mass low temperature system compounds all those issues




I have found storage to make a huge difference in overall system performance. It seems to provide a "FLY WHEEL"  effect.


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## btuser (Jan 15, 2011)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Yes, I know forced air isn't the greatest. I do have storage though so that helps some. :D
> 
> 
> I'm thinking of moving the boiler into the shop. The stupid little outshed will hit 90+ when it's 0 outside, might as well have that heat inside.



Great idea.


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## Chris S (Jan 16, 2011)

It took me several days to have the time to read through all of this, so -  another late comer.

I have a few things to add.  

I assume your shop is for the farm, and as mentioned above, may be an insurance isssue especially if machinery, or vehicles are in there.  While the heat would be welcome, the lacl of insurance in the event of a claim kind of offsets this benefit.

Several have sugested methods for drying your wood.   One of the things we make our living at is structural drying.  Evaporate the moisture with air movement over the wood, then dehumidify the air.  If you simply bring wood into your shop, and raise the humidity in the air, the drying will stop.  But if you can continually remove humidity with mechanical dehumidification, you can accomplish what  a years worth of outside seasoning does in a few days.  I have the  ability to stack 1 1/2 cords inside, and running one of my commercial dehumidifiers for 3 days, I can drop the m.c. 5-8 %.  My dehu is 2-3 times larger than what you would buy at sears, and I split my wood small (4") to get better drying.  We often set up " drying chambers " with plastic sheeting and then concentrate on controlling humidity.  Wet will always go to dry, just create the dry.  A greenhouse is hot, but also usually humid, so not good enough for what we're trying to accomplish.   My mosture meters only go to 30%, in the industry, we consider 30% to be saturated, usually a log even one that's been dead 2 years will peg the meter.  You and I both know how well this wood burns in the Eko
I have creosote in the upper chamber and around the door, but my tubes are clean, I made a cleaning tool with a fender washer and threaded rod, but only used it once last year, now I just use a brush on a long handle that is normally used for cleaning oil boilers.
I'm still tinkering ( only my second year with the eko) but drying the wood has given me much better results. 
Best of luck to you,
Chris


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## seige101 (Jan 26, 2011)

Just kinda curious so i am 'bumping' this. How is the system working these days?


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## Hankovitch (Jan 28, 2011)

Dry vs wet wood...........
Now something additional on burning wet wood.
I posted this about a year ago on another thread, thought it would fit well hereâ€¦
When purchasing wood for burning you need not ask if it is dry (the seller will always tell you it is dry!). Just look at the ends of the wood pieces where the chain saw cut through the tree. If you see what appear to be a number of slits, cracks or gaps where the wood fibers have separated, then it is at least somewhat dry. If the wood appears to be tight (no slits, gaps or cracks), then the wood is NOT dry, and you will use a lot of energy just to drive off the water before you can burn the wood.
Late this Spring or early Summer cut some wood of your own, split it, weigh it immediately, and record the weight on the ends of several pieces.  Dry it for a while - 1 week, 3 weeks, 2 months, 4 months - and record the weight of the pieces through the Summer.  It will be an interesting and revealing experiment. Letâ€™s look at a cord of wood (4â€™x4â€™x8â€™= 1 cord).
Let us assume the cord of wood you purchased is wet enough that it still has 400 pounds of water in it. (probably a VERY conservative number for an entire cord of freshly cut wood. Freshly cut wood can contain a LOT of water, and seasoned or dry wood will typically still contain 15-20% water).
See the link   http://www.i4at.org/surv/woodburn.htm
(Note: this link has information confirming that burning wet wood can be a cause of creosote buildup in chimneys)
Thought I would try a fun calculation here to determine how much energy you will use just to drive off the water, and thereafter allow the wood to burn..
To heat water requires 1 BTU per degree per pound of water. Thus to heat one pound of water in the wood from 32 degrees F to 212 degrees F (to the temperature where the water can begin to boil away) will require 180 BTU per pound of water.
This means that you will use 72,000 BTU for the 400 pounds of water in the wood just to get the water to 212 degrees F.
But the water is still there, as a liquid - it is just a liquid at 212 degrees F!..........so read onâ€¦......
To convert 1 pound of liquid water at 212 degrees F to one pound of steam at 212 degrees F (where it will then have all â€˜boiled awayâ€™) will require 970.4 BTU per pound of water.......Really.
For the 400 pounds of water, you will need to use another 388,000 BTU to complete driving off the water.
Or, starting at 32 degrees F, for a cord of wood which still has 400 pounds of water in it, you will utilize 72,000 BTU + 388,000 BTU = 460,000 BTU jsut to drive off the waterâ€¦..now you can use the BTUs in the wood to heat your home. This is 460,000 BTU which is NOT available to heat your home!............this is why it is best to burn DRY wood.

Hankovitch in SW Wisconsin


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## ewdudley (Jan 28, 2011)

Hankovitch said:
			
		

> Dry vs wet wood...........
> Now something additional on burning wet wood.
> 
> ...
> ...



Twenty million btu per eighty-five cubic foot cord is a reasonable estimate of the available heat  in twenty percent moisture wood.  If it only costs me two and a half percent to burn green wood instead of dry, why all the excitement?

--ewd


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## Chris S (Jan 29, 2011)

Why all the hoopla?  Because to try and dry wood in the boiler, and gassify at the same time drives boiler efficiency way down.  IMO if you could spend those few btus drying the wood before it gets into the boiler, and keep your boiler efficiency up, it's the next best thing to letting mother nature dry the wood.


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## Duetech (Jan 29, 2011)

ewdudley said:
			
		

> Hankovitch said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



20million btu's is only good for some types of wood but the issue here is that you cannot heat the water and your home at the same time especially in a boiler that was not designed to operate
above 20%mc. For instance my EKO40 was in an unheated building and functioned well at and above freezing with per required seasoned wood. However boositng the dew point to 60 and dumping the mean temp to -20f and there was a sudden change in functionality. Putting -20f wood into the upper chamber dropped the temp of the boiler in several ways. First is of course the cold wood second was the "per required seasoned wood" was now a mass of surfaces for condensation of the moisture in the heated air entering the upperchamber. All those cold surfaces dripping moisture actually nixed the gasification and nearly put the fire out. Next the secondary air entering the mix became below par because the refractory had been cooled. Now suddenly you are blowing cold air into the boiler sedcondary chamber and the boiler is losing heat rapidly (you can actually have a small fire that eats wood but does not put out enough heat to warm the boiler up). The heat load has to be shut off, the wood has to be removed and the fire rebuilt and the wood has to be added slowly enough that it can heat up and add to the heat rather than deplete it. The whole time you are heating wood to burn you are robbing heat time from the heat load. When the condensation rolls around in the burn chamber of a gasifier it continues to condense to the coolest surface and not actually evaporate. In a gasifier you could theoretically double the earlier mentioned btu's needed to dry the wood to the proper mc and then expend more btu's to get the boiler up to operating temps. Couple all  this with the inability to put the whole cord of wood into the boiler at the same time and you extend the period of time the heat load is deprived of being satisfied. In an OWB or gasifier there is an "X" amount of wood/coals that need to be burning in order for the boiler to function as designed. In a nut  :ahhh: shell wet wood reduces the thermal capacity rating of the boiler and in a gasser you are drawing in moisture form outside air to compound the problem.


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## heaterman (Jan 29, 2011)

Well put Cave. 

Adding frozen fuel compounds the problems inherent with green wood. My son in law experienced that in a big way during his first EconoBurn winter. It difficult to realize and put a handle on how much poorly prepared wood actually costs you until you try to use it in a boiler that for all practical purposes should be adequate to do the job but won't. Once he got his hands on some seasoned wood and kept his outbuilding a little warmer the difference was hard to believe unless you saw it with your own eyes. 
The reason most people don't have a grasp of what green wood costs them is that they are using a grossly inefficient or oversized boiler in the first place.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 29, 2011)

I just moved 2 firebox loads of wood in next to my boiler (6x12 insulated room) from the storage room (10x12 with a tarp door)!  I'll get some more in tomorrow.

http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14279/css/14279_189.htm

A key RULE to remember is that .5 Btu of heat is required  to  raise  1  pound  of  ice  1oF  when  the temperature  is  below  32Â°F;  and  .5  Btu  of  heat  is required  to  raise  1  pound  of  steam  1Â°F  above  the temperature of 212Â°F.

LATENT HEAT, or hidden heat, is the term used for the heat absorbed or given off by a substance while it is changing its physical state...To  raise  the temperature of 1 pound of ice from 0Â°F to 32Â°F, you must add 16 Btu. To change the pound of ice at 32Â°F to a pound of water at 32Â°F, you add 144 Btu (latent heat of fusion). There is no change in temperature while the ice is melting.   After  the  ice  is  melted,  however,  the temperature  of  the  water  is  raised  when  more  heat  is applied. When 180 Btu are added, the water boils. To change a pound of water at 212Â°F to a pound of steam at 212Â°F,  you  must  add  970  Btu  (latent  heat  of vaporization). After the water is converted to steam at 212Â°F, the application of additional heat causes a rise in the temperature of the steam.


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## Sawyer (Jan 29, 2011)

Below are figures I use to calculate my efficiency. I bring my firewood into the boiler room to acclimate before burning. These figures are based on Forest Product Laboratory. I have found other laboratory and university data to be very similar to FPL.

Forest Product Laboratory

8,660 BTU available in a #  of wood @   0% MC
6,900 BTU available in a #  of wood @ 20% MC
6,020 BTU available in a #  of wood @ 30% MC
4,300 BTU available in a #  of wood @ 50% MC (38% less than 20% MC)

My average cord (Your mixture may vary from mine.) of hardwood dry (20% MC) is ~ 3300# (H Maple 3757# 20% ((2862# 0%-- 4,386# 65% Green)) S Maple 2924# 20% - Cherry 3120# 20% - Y Birch 3689# 20%)

3300x6900 = 22,770,000 X .75 = 17,077,500 BTU in cord (128 cu/ft) of my average firewood mixture @ 75% Efficiency in my average 20%MC hardwood load.


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## heaterman (Jan 29, 2011)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> I just moved 2 firebox loads of wood in next to my boiler (6x12 insulated room) from the storage room (10x12 with a tarp door)!  I'll get some more in tomorrow.
> 
> http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14279/css/14279_189.htm
> 
> ...



You GOT IT Absolutely true. All of it. 

Things that make me go Hmmmmmmmmm........

The urge to burn green wood
Using non barrier pex 
Using a poor underground product.
How my wife can need the bathroom for a full hour every morning in 2 minute intervals. In/Out, In/Out, In/Out............ 

Got a guy right now insisting that he should be able to burn green wood in a Garn he picked up used. (1987 model) Wonders why it is consuming so much fuel............ Some days.........


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## Sawyer (Jan 29, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Hunderliggur said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## heaterman (Jan 29, 2011)

Sawyer said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rick Stanley (Jan 29, 2011)

I got my Garn in 08 and got my wood in after it had dried outside for a year. I never got the Garn online till 09. So I started with, mostly red oak, that had been cut and split and stacked for two years, (one year in a building).
   This year I have wood seasoned barely one year, mixed oak(some kinda big), pin cherry, red maple(some punky and frozen), pitch pine(some pitchy) and a few sticks of poplar. I don't know about formula this or laboratory that, but.............  
    I made use of what I had from cutting around the field edges and some deadfalls and blowdowns around the farm. Nothing wrong with that AND the stuff burns fine in the Garn. But it's obvious to me that if you got very slap happy about wood species, quality and good seasoning you could end up burning TWICE as much wood.


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## Hunderliggur (Jan 29, 2011)

Danfoss valve: "The small hole is the same as in a car thermostat it allows the air to purge out of the valve and prevents an air lock."  Whatever, it works for me!


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## PV2U (Jan 30, 2011)

Bravo!  I'm a newbie to the word of Wood Gasification, but I learned so much from reading nearly every word of this exercise in troubleshooting.  You guys are nothing short of an inspiration, the way you put your heads together to help out an obviously overwhelmed and highly frustrated individual.

My appreciation to all that contributed to this thread (and thereby to my scant knowledge) - I learned a great many things; not the least of which being that this is an unusually grand group of fellows!  

Hats off!
Paul


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