# reducing electrical bill



## tlhfirelion (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm trying to see what I can do aside from what I already know to reduce my electric bill.  

Info on my home is this. Very northern Arkansas.  1500 sq ft home, 30 years old. 

Average electric bill on an all  electric house  for 12 months is about 125 bucks a month.  

Last month was a higher bill where we used 1300 KWH.  We use more in the winter
We have a heat pump thats about 15 years old which I know if that was newer would reduce our bill some.  Over the past few years we have upgraded all our appliances to tier 3 energy star and replaced our water heater with a marathon water heater.  All light bulbs are LED.  I added blown cellulose insulation to the attic this past summer on top of the rolled and blown fiberglass.  Walls are R11 fiberglass so I'm not sure what I can do about that aside from ripping out all the dry wall.  Windows and doors are all new within the last 3 years, low E coating and all that.  I've used countless cans of foam filling holes and gaps and the like.  We are planning to upgrade our wood stove to a cat stove this next fall so that should help a lot from our old century home depot stove.  I had considered getting spray foam in the crawlspace on the underside of the upstairs to make the wood floors warmer but I don't know if that will help enough to justify the cost.  

I looked at solar but it's just not worth it cost wise yet.  We are a family of 4.  When I compare my electric bill to my neighbors we are much less but I still feel like it's too high.  Aside from the wood stove and heat pump, is there anything I can do to further reduce the electric usage and increase the comfort in our home?  

Thanks in advance for any assistance you are able to provide.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Mar 8, 2016)

Education can help you figure out what to target next.  Go room to room with a kill-a-watt and measure the draw of everything plugged in.


----------



## DBoon (Mar 8, 2016)

One modestly sized mini-split heat pump in a central place in your house may be a big increase in efficiency compared to an existing ducted heat pump.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Mar 8, 2016)

Do you know your annual total electricity usage in kWh? That would give a slightly better idea how much you're using than just your average bill.

Even with a well-insulated water heater, heating water is still going to be a large chunk of your energy bill. Do you have low flow showerheads? If the showerhead is not labeled with a flow rate, you can calculate the rate by timing how long it takes to fill a bucket of known size.

I find 2 to 2.5 gpm can still be a pretty reasonable flow rate from a decent showerhead. It's the ultra low flow 1.5 gpm models that really get complaints about feeling lackluster. Supposedly a lot of older showerheads flow more than 5 gpm. Going from 5 gpm to 2.5 gpm would save somewhere around $5/month for a 5 minute shower daily. If all four of you are taking even longer showers, it could be significantly more.

Clothes and dishwashers could also use a modest chunk of your energy, although probably not large enough to justify replacing them if they're working properly.

If you use air conditioning, making sure your attic is well ventilated may help reduce that load some (and help prolong your roof life).

Replacing the heat pump would probably have a small to moderate savings, and at 15 years old, that may be something to start planning for anyways since 15-20 years is supposedly typical for a heat pump, but if your thermostat does not have a smart recovery capability, that would be the first change I'd make. Honeywell 7-day programmable models start at about $90 and give you all the features you need to manage your heat pump effectively. Obviously, Honeywell is one brand of many.

Also, make sure any heating ducts running through uninuslated parts of the house are well sealed and insulated. The recommendation I'm following is to seal every duct seam and register boot with mastic, and wrap the ducts with R8 insulation. I had to go to a heating company to get the R8 duct insulation, because the big box stores only sell R4.

Feeling for drafts around doors, windows, and even electrical outlets can clue you in to additional places to seal.


----------



## woodgeek (Mar 8, 2016)

The remaining low hanging fruit would be attic and basement airsealing and swapping out the water heater for a heat pump water heater.  Reducing hot water usage with low-flow showerheads might also help.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 9, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> Info on my home is this. Very northern Arkansas. 1500 sq ft home, 30 years old. Average electric bill on an all electric house for 12 months is about 125 bucks a month.


 That is, all electric except for heat from a wood stove. That's twice the amount my wife and I pay (all electric house plus heat from a wood stove) on a 60-year old 1500 sq ft main level, 1500 sq walkout basement, new windows, added insulation where practical -- and we are located in north central Minnesota, a whole lot colder that your location. Our electric rate is $0.12 on general service and $0.07 on electricity for heat and domestic hot water.

Do you have an option for a time of use rate for electric hot water and/or heat? What are your rate options? We get the $0.07 rate on domestic hot water with electricity available only between 11:00 pm and 7:00 am. To make sure we don't run out of hot water, we added a second hot water heater, super-insulated the hot water heaters, and insulated all hot water piping. Also, no long showers or wasting of hot water. We also get the $0.07 rate on electric heat which is interruptible, that is, electricity for heat can be shut off during peak times. The wood stove does fine to heat the house during these times, so well that we don't use much electricity for heat.


----------



## peirhead (Mar 9, 2016)

What is your water pressure  set at?....30 psi is ok for most homeowners,,,if you are at 60 or 70 psi...the higher the pressure the more hot  water wasted running the sink, showers etc  and higher water use overall (more for the septic to handle)  obviously this doesn't matter for toilets and washing machines as they use a set amount of water.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 9, 2016)

I think the focus should be on the electric heat.


----------



## mass_burner (Mar 9, 2016)

It would be really helpful to know where the load is coming from. 

Can you try turning everything off and then running everything one by one, measuring the rate of electric load?


----------



## semipro (Mar 9, 2016)

OP, I recommend you have an energy audit done that includes thermal imaging and blower door testing.  This may cost a bit but it will likely be worth the investment.
You've obviously done a lot to try and seal up the house.  Its very possible that you still have some significant thermal or air leakage that is driving HVAC costs too high.
Now its time to use some objective measures to see where you next efforts should be focused.

Edit: as Woodgeek mentioned, have you air sealed your attic (isolating attic from living space)?


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

DBoon said:


> One modestly sized mini-split heat pump in a central place in your house may be a big increase in efficiency compared to an existing ducted heat pump.



I like mini splits but was concerned about the back rooms since it's not quite so open back there.  I've had a few contractors bid me minis and around here they're viewed as alien technology for residential.  Lol.


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> Do you know your annual total electricity usage in kWh? That would give a slightly better idea how much you're using than just your average bill.
> 
> Even with a well-insulated water heater, heating water is still going to be a large chunk of your energy bill. Do you have low flow showerheads? If the showerhead is not labeled with a flow rate, you can calculate the rate by timing how long it takes to fill a bucket of known size.
> 
> ...



All our fixtures are low flow.  I dealt with all that recently when calculating what water softener size I needed.  

The washer/dryer and dishwasher aren't very old at all and all energy star tier three.  They were a big improvement from the very old machines they replaced.  

We do use AC as it gets pretty hot and humid here.  I've wondered if a dehumidifier add on for our Hvac would help reduce AC usage?

I installed a nest thermostat about 2 years ago.  

The heat pump upgrade would show a modest change in our electric bill, I'm sure of that.  It's also a pretty penny to buy so we've not done that yet.  It's on our horizon.  I have been throwing around the idea of putting a liner on the crawlspace floor and insulating the walls to provide storage.  I can access the crawl from our basement so it would work out nice.  I think that would also provide some insulation for the floor upstairs?

Our water heater is a Marathon and not very old.  It's in the basement.  I guess I could wrap it but not sure if that would really help much.  

Thanks for the detailed reply!


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

jebatty said:


> That is, all electric except for heat from a wood stove. That's twice the amount my wife and I pay (all electric house plus heat from a wood stove) on a 60-year old 1500 sq ft main level, 1500 sq walkout basement, new windows, added insulation where practical -- and we are located in north central Minnesota, a whole lot colder that your location. Our electric rate is $0.12 on general service and $0.07 on electricity for heat and domestic hot water.
> 
> Do you have an option for a time of use rate for electric hot water and/or heat? What are your rate options? We get the $0.07 rate on domestic hot water with electricity available only between 11:00 pm and 7:00 am. To make sure we don't run out of hot water, we added a second hot water heater, super-insulated the hot water heaters, and insulated all hot water piping. Also, no long showers or wasting of hot water. We also get the $0.07 rate on electric heat which is interruptible, that is, electricity for heat can be shut off during peak times. The wood stove does fine to heat the house during these times, so well that we don't use much electricity for heat.



Our electric rate is low but it's the same all the time.  I inquired about that last fall to see if timing of certain things would help but since our rate is low, there are no peak and low times price wise.


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I think the focus should be on the electric heat.



I assume you mean upgrading the heat pump?


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

mass_burner said:


> It would be really helpful to know where the load is coming from.
> 
> Can you try turning everything off and then running everything one by one, measuring the rate of electric load?



How would I do that?  With the killawatt meter or some other way?  I'm by no means an electrician, that's one thing I pay the experts for!


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 10, 2016)

semipro said:


> OP, I recommend you have an energy audit done that includes thermal imaging and blower door testing.  This may cost a bit but it will likely be worth the investment.
> You've obviously done a lot to try and seal up the house.  Its very possible that you still have some significant thermal or air leakage that is driving HVAC costs too high.
> Now its time to use some objective measures to see where you next efforts should be focused.
> 
> Edit: as Woodgeek mentioned, have you air sealed your attic (isolating attic from living space)?



I'll call around and see what my options are around here.  

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by air sealing my attic?  After adding blown cellulose last year it's an R50 now up from r25.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 10, 2016)

I'm no heat pump expert, but I imagine the less the heat strips run, the better.  As was mentioned, the thermostat might play a roll there.  I imagine if you replace the heat pump and controls and put in a new stove that assumes a good portion of the heat load, you would be on a good road.


----------



## maple1 (Mar 10, 2016)

Are you on city water? Or well pump?


----------



## semipro (Mar 10, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> I'll call around and see what my options are around here.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean exactly by air sealing my attic?  After adding blown cellulose last year it's an R50 now up from r25.


http://www.finehomebuilding.com/pages/how-to-air-seal-attic/


----------



## iamlucky13 (Mar 10, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> I installed a nest thermostat about 2 years ago.



That's good as an upgrade over a non-smart recovery thermostat, but I'm not convinced the Nest is a leader for efficiency among smart recovery models - however smart it may be, it doesn't actually know your schedule as well as you do, and talking to people who have one about how they use it, I get the sense that the way it encourages people to adjust the setting whenever they feel like leads them to unconsciously deprioritize being efficient with their heating, and then alters its scheduled set points based on what you did.

If you want to minimize heating use, pay attention to what your thermostat is actually doing, including what temperatures it is choosing and when how much it is running your auxiliary heat. If I remember right, it has some settings that increases the frequency it does that, but you can dig into the settings to change it.



tlhfirelion said:


> Our water heater is a Marathon and not very old. It's in the basement. I guess I could wrap it but not sure if that would really help much.



The Marathon is a good unit based on how long it should last, but efficiency ratings of electric resistance water heaters are all in the same very close ballpark. Realistically, only about 5% of the energy your water heater uses is due heat loss. The rest goes to doing what it was supposed to - making cold water hot. Adding a water heater blanket might get you down to 3-4%, which may pay for the blanket, but the only significant way to reduce the cost of an electric water heater is to reduce how much water you heat.

The only other option is to use something less expensive than electric resistance heat. Heat pump water heaters are one option, but probably not appealing since you already bought the Marathon.


----------



## velvetfoot (Mar 10, 2016)

I put in a supplemental Nyletherm heat pump water heater, connected to my electric resistance water heater.  Gary had some discontinued models that he was getting rid of.  Not sure what the payback time on it would be.  Plus, they do make some noise, but do a little dehumidification.

I looked into the workings of my Ecobee thermostat a while ago, as far as heat stages and auxiliary heat.  I recall, for instance, that a return from a setback could trigger auxiliary (electric resistance) heat.  I wonder if you could disconnect the electric resistance and see if you could get by?  Probably not well, since efficiency to low temps might not be your unit's forte.  At a minimum, your stove would be 'auxiliary' heat, and better yet, your main source of heat.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Mar 10, 2016)

Common thermostat logic is to turn on the auxiliary heat if either the difference between the actual indoor temperature and the setpoint is large, or if the heat pump has been running too long without reaching the setpoint. That brings the house up to temperature quickly when a big change is made, or ensures the house reaches temperature when it's cold enough heat loss exceeds the heat pump's capacity.

Smart recovery, which the Ecobee and Nest both also have, adds some additional logic so that if the setpoint is raised during a scheduled change, it does not turn the aux heat on in response to large difference between actual temp and set point, but because it can take a heat pump a long time to make a large temperature change, it monitors how long it takes to raise the temperature, and remembers to start early next time.

Especially with that feature available, I would not advise disconnecting the aux heat. There will be days it is needed, and doing so would also cause your registers to blow cold air every time the heat pump runs a defrost cycle.

Many heat pump compatible thermostats also have an option to adjust the aux heat lockout temperature. This is the outdoor temperature above which the thermostat never calls for aux heat (except during defrosts). Installers often set this fairly high. Lowering it to a temperature you know your heat pump can keep up with may help efficiency a bit. How is usually detailed in the installer manual, not the user manual.


----------



## woodgeek (Mar 10, 2016)

Or you could sell the Marathon at a slight loss?


----------



## Where2 (Mar 10, 2016)

woodgeek said:


> Or you could sell the Marathon at a slight loss?


Or you could add a Nyle Geyser R to the Marathon and have something nice, a modular unit where if something goes wrong with the heat pump years from now you don't have to toss the tank...


----------



## jebatty (Mar 11, 2016)

iamlucky13 said:


> The Marathon is a good unit based on how long it should last, but efficiency ratings of electric resistance water heaters are all in the same very close ballpark. Realistically, only about 5% of the energy your water heater uses is due heat loss. The rest goes to doing what it was supposed to - making cold water hot. Adding a water heater blanket might get you down to 3-4%, which may pay for the blanket, but the only significant way to reduce the cost of an electric water heater is to reduce how much water you heat.


 Not true in my experience. Our two hot water heaters are on a separate meter. When I raised them off the floor and insulated underneath, then wrapped each on sides and tops with 6" of fiberglass insulation, covered that with aluminized bubble wrap, installed U-shaped heat traps, and also insulated the hot water pipes, electric use dropped by 50% from what it was before these actions. Total cost of these actions was about $60.

But I also agree that reducing use of hot water is an effective way to reduce cost by reducing electricity usage. I think that is evidenced by monthly average electric usage of about 100 kWh, which based on time of use rate costs us about $6/month.


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 11, 2016)

Where2 said:


> Or you could add a Nyle Geyser R to the Marathon and have something nice, a modular unit where if something goes wrong with the heat pump years from now you don't have to toss the tank...



I was rather interested in the Geyser until I saw the price.  On amazon it's 900 bucks and while I may be able to find it slightly less elsewhere, thats a chunk of change and I can't see that being a smart move for me at this time.  The marathon is only a few years old and is a great water heater that I won't be selling.  The warranty alone would keep me.  If the geyser was less expensive, like say half, I can see that being a good option and the dehumidification is a nice plus, especially for my basement install.


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 11, 2016)

Where2 said:


> Or you could add a Nyle Geyser R to the Marathon and have something nice, a modular unit where if something goes wrong with the heat pump years from now you don't have to toss the tank...



I was rather interested in the Geyser until I saw the price.  On amazon it's 900 bucks and while I may be able to find it slightly less elsewhere, thats a chunk of change and I can't see that being a smart move for me at this time.  The marathon is only a few years old and is a great water heater that I won't be selling.  The warranty alone would keep me.  If the geyser was less expensive, like say half, I can see that being a good option and the dehumidification is a nice plus, especially for my basement install. 


jebatty said:


> Not true in my experience. Our two hot water heaters are on a separate meter. When I raised them off the floor and insulated underneath, then wrapped each on sides and tops with 6" of fiberglass insulation, covered that with aluminized bubble wrap, installed U-shaped heat traps, and also insulated the hot water pipes, electric use dropped by 50% from what it was before these actions. Total cost of these actions was about $60.
> 
> But I also agree that reducing use of hot water is an effective way to reduce cost by reducing electricity usage. I think that is evidenced by monthly average electric usage of about 100 kWh, which based on time of use rate costs us about $6/month.




Do you happen to have a pic of these U shaped heat traps you referred too?  Not sure I've heard of those before.  Thanks!

Edit.  Disregard what they look like, now I wonder if they do work and make a noticeable difference.  My water heater is in my basement and all my piping is above the water heater so this may be worth looking into if they make a difference.


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 11, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Are you on city water? Or well pump?


Well.


----------



## tlhfirelion (Mar 11, 2016)

semipro said:


> http://www.finehomebuilding.com/pages/how-to-air-seal-attic/


Gotcha, yes, I have done that to a certain extent.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 12, 2016)

The U heat traps work very well, but their economy also relates to how well the internal neat traps work in your hot water heater. Really old hot water heaters had none, newer ones had heat traps that worked some, and I would assume the better water heaters today have heat traps that are quite effective. But, you can tell how well they work by feeling the pipes on the cold water inlet and hot water outlet. If these are warm to hot and no hot water has been run for a period of time, then you are losing heat with no benefit by hot water is thermo-siphoning into your system.


----------



## TradEddie (Mar 12, 2016)

I had set a goal of reducing my annual kWh to below10,000, but after installing a Geospring HPWH, I instantly met that goal and am now looking to get below 8000. It easily saves me $20/month, and only cost me $200 more with all the rebates etc. 

TE


----------



## maple1 (Mar 13, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> Well.


 
Not to say it is the case here, but well pumps can use a lot of juice if not 'tuned up' right. And over time they can go out of 'tune' if a little bit of sediment gets built up in the wrong place that would affect pressure switches & gauges. More cushion tank capacity can reduce starts, and turning down the high pressure cut off just a bit can greatly lessen the time the pump runs, depending on the pump & how good it is matched to the pumping needs. I have a 3/4 hp shallow well pump, and it really struggled to get that last 5psi in the system before I turned it down that 5psi. Didn't really notice the difference between 35psi & 40psi at the taps. My gauge stopped working quite a few months ago, didn't get around to replacing it until last month. I was surprised how much I had to readjust the settings. Next on my well water list is to add another cushion tank. Also gives you more water in reserve for a power outage situation.


----------



## TradEddie (Mar 14, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Not to say it is the case here, but well pumps can use a lot of juice if not 'tuned up' right


And even more if you develop a small leak in the pit adapter...
It was a heck of a shock to find an electric bill three times higher than normal, with no obvious explanation.

TE


----------



## peirhead (Mar 16, 2016)

Yes watch those well pumps... as was mentioned make sure the tank isn't waterlogged (no air) or if the tank is a bladder type here is a troubleshooter: 
http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?id=308&title=Trouble_Shooting_A_Water_Pressure_Bladder_Tank


----------



## jebatty (Mar 19, 2016)

March 2015 - February 2016 set a record on electric energy conservation in our household. This year reflected our full switch-over to LED lighting and continuing prior conservation efforts, especially including attention to keeping electric "off" when not actually in use. Total 12 month General Service + DHW kWh = 4,254, or 354 kWh/month. Total Dual Service (electric heat) = 3,962 kWh. Total usage = 8,216 kWh.

Historical usage for General + DHW was 6,000 kWh/yr, so we achieved a reduction of 1,746 kWh, which is a 29% reduction in usage. Historical usage for heat also was 6,000 kWh/yr. The reduction in 2015-2016 to 3,962 kWh is due to a much warmer than average winter. Warmer than normal winters have been an ever increasing trend over the past 20 years.

Total historical usage was based on the two year period prior to October 2013. That was the month we installed our solar PV system, and before installing solar PV we made substantial conservation efforts to achieve reduction in electric usage.


----------



## jebatty (Mar 20, 2016)

Made an error, although still a record year on electric energy conservation in our household. I failed to account for solar PV used in the household. In the chart below the monthly readings for solar are actual for the month, while the monthly readings for the utility, CWP, are taken on the 8th of the month. So April reading for CWP is the month from March 9 to April 8, etc.

The full results, all in kWh:


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 8, 2016)

tlhfirelion said:


> Average electric bill on an all  electric house  for 12 months is about 125 bucks a month.
> .


WOw i dont even have electric heat or electric hot water in winter,only in summer and my electric bill is higher than yours. Avg $150 paying about 
10-12 c KWH. 6 people in the house dont help ,lots of laundry with an electric dryer.


----------



## begreen (Apr 8, 2016)

Maybe put up a clothesline.


----------



## Brian26 (Apr 9, 2016)

begreen said:


> Maybe put up a clothesline.



I agree. I have an Effergy whole house electrical energy monitor and it was eye opening how much the electric dryer used. When I saw that it was costing me $1.50-$2 to dry clothes I invested in a indoor drying rack and hung a clothesline.

In the summer I dry them outside on the line and the winter a simple rack by the woodstove works great.


I am in CT where electricity is .25 kwh total cost delivered so the extra 10 mins of hanging the clothes is worth it.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 11, 2016)

Clothes dryer is a big load but it cycles a lot and is pretty short term. I've found bigger costs from cooking. Baking especially.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 11, 2016)

Highbeam said:


> Clothes dryer is a big load but it cycles a lot and is pretty short term. I've found bigger costs from cooking. Baking especially.


Our Oven is a self clean which is very energy efficient. The higher insulation content of the self clean is definitely worth the price of the upgrade.
Once up to temp the heating element only comes on occasionally to maintain oven temp ,you can see it through the door window.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 11, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Our Oven is a self clean which is very energy efficient. The higher insulation content of the self clean is definitely worth the price of the upgrade.
> Once up to temp the heating element only comes on occasionally to maintain oven temp ,you can see it through the door window.



I'm in the market for a new oven/range due to color so will keep this in mind. Stupid almond oven.


----------



## begreen (Apr 11, 2016)

Convection ovens tend to bake faster. If self clean is important, watch out for stoves that don't isolate electronics very well from the high heat. Those that do not are prone to premature failure.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 12, 2016)

Our Self clean is a Black Glass top Kenmore, Glass top still cleans up like new, its about 16 YRs old and everything works. ID say we got our moneys worth long ago. When you turn it off the oven stays hot for hours. Ill always have a self clean.


----------



## begreen (Apr 12, 2016)

SIL bought a high-end Viking with all the bells and whistles. Self-clean feature fried the control board twice in 5 yrs. of moderate use. The second time they informed her the part was no longer being made.


----------



## semipro (Apr 12, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Our Self clean is a Black Glass top Kenmore, Glass top still cleans up like new, its about 16 YRs old and everything works. ID say we got our moneys worth long ago. When you turn it off the oven stays hot for hours. Ill always have a self clean.


Same here.  
Its interesting that some SC ovens use a catalytic converter to treat the smoke produced. 
There are some apparently valid concerns about the health effects of these fumes on humans and pets. http://learn.compactappliance.com/self-cleaning-oven-hazards/


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 12, 2016)

Not that I would ever use the self clean feature, but having it apparently leads to superior insulation levels around the oven. I monitor my daily power usage with an efergy and I can really tell when somebody baked cookies. Less so when a load of laundry (wash and dry) was done. We do have a HE front load washer and an efficient duct run for the dryer so maybe we just have our laundry situation dialed in.


----------



## begreen (Apr 12, 2016)

Same here, we've never used the self-clean feature of our wall oven, but appreciate the better insulation for more even baking, less energy wasted.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 12, 2016)

Nice info guys.  I think I have used the self-clean function once or twice, usually when the weather allowed and we could run the kitchen exhaust fan the whole time.

Anyone got any hard info that SC ovens use less energy for baking?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 13, 2016)

Next up ior scrutiny is my water bill ,its just getting out of control. Average at least $80 a month sometimes higher.


----------



## begreen (Apr 13, 2016)

Our water bill is usually quite low, but there is a bimonthly membership fee that drives it up. This is non-negotiable. However, during our dry summers our water bill shoots up and exceeds our winter heating bill. Typically this is the July/Aug bill. The water rate is tiered based on consumption and our multiple gardens run up the bill quickly.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Apr 13, 2016)

It's good practice anytime you suspect water waste, if not once a year pre-emptively, to put 5-10 drops of food coloring in your toilet tank. If it shows up in the bowl in less than an hour, you should investigate whether either the fill valve or the flapper/flush valve is leaking.

My water bill started climbing over the last few months. The first two bills I wrote off to extra laundry due to a newborn, but it kept going up. The food coloring test showed positive in less than a minute, and I realized the fill valve was leaking pretty badly. I tore it apart and found a chunk of the seal inside had eroded away. The new fill valve was $12. Cheap fix. I'm very curious to see how much my next bill drops.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 14, 2016)

My water is not metered for sale to me but I meter my water as part of my iron removal system so I know what our family uses. We are well below the average of 200 gpd despite it being free. We actually are actually under 90 gallons per day and that's with two middle school aged daughters.

Pretty sweet deal really. I provide a cord of firewood to the owner of the water system each year and he keeps the water coming. Gravity septic in my yard so no power on that either.

I suspect a small toilet leak. A leaky flush valve actually. I once caught the toilet fill valve refilling the tank when nobody had used that toilet for several hours.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 14, 2016)

About 6000 gallon a month for 6 people . Or 33.33 EA per day.


----------



## Brian26 (Apr 16, 2016)

begreen said:


> SIL bought a high-end Viking with all the bells and whistles. Self-clean feature fried the control board twice in 5 yrs. of moderate use. The second time they informed her the part was no longer being made.



No control boards on my oven. Been baking just fine since 1958. I bought my great uncles house where almost everything was either original or from the 70s. . I replaced just about everything for energy efficiency but I just can't bring myself to replacing this original 1958 Frigidaire wall oven that still works just fine.

They don't make stuff like they used to.


----------



## begreen (Apr 16, 2016)

Double door oven with no glass is unusual. That's the first I've seen.


----------



## DBoon (Apr 16, 2016)

Those are awesome looking old appliances.  I wouldn't replace them either.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 16, 2016)

I knew a guy who was using a 1950 refrigerator yet ,it was a Leonard Ref ,and his name was Leonard so i guess he couldnt part with it.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 6, 2016)

My electric bill just keeps going up ,over $200 THIS MONTH AND I DONT HAVE ELECTRIC HEAT


----------



## maple1 (May 6, 2016)

My last one came last week. About the lowest its ever been, $170 for 2 months.


----------



## TradEddie (May 6, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> My electric bill just keeps going up ,over $200 THIS MONTH AND I DONT HAVE ELECTRIC HEAT


Did you sign up for one of those cut price suppliers? Many of those jack up the price as soon as the introductory period is over. Check whether it was your consumption, or the price/kwh that went up.

TE


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 7, 2016)

TradEddie said:


> Did you sign up for one of those cut price suppliers? Many of those jack up the price as soon as the introductory period is over. Check whether it was your consumption, or the price/kwh that went up.
> 
> TE


Its consumption, i only pay about 11c a KWH total.


----------



## maple1 (May 7, 2016)

Time to invest in a couple of energy monitoring devices. A whole house one like an Effergy, and a plug in one for individual items. The sneaky one for me was the two 4'  flourescent fixtures in my office. But reading back a bit in the thread, water pump related issues can be a kicker too - from leaky foot valve stuff to wonky pressure switches from sediment intrusion and tank problems.


----------



## velvetfoot (May 7, 2016)

maple1 said:


> My last one came last week. About the lowest its ever been, $170 for 2 months.


How many kwh?  Is that actual or is there an estimate in there by the utility?  I've seemed to have gotten a bump up since the heat pump water heater was turned on.  I have to look at some historic.


----------



## maple1 (May 7, 2016)

977 kwh. All-in cost works out to 0.18/kwh. (Energy alone is 0.148). 62 days in this billing period, 15.8 kwh/day.

The one before that was 19.8 kwh/day. That period saw 2-3 days of back up electric boiler use over Xmas. We still have our meters physically read by a meter reader guy (no 'smart' meters here yet) every couple months. He's fast - sometimes I wonder exactly how close he looks. But the past years history shows daily consumption over billing periods from 15.8 to 21.3. (The 21.3 was while heating our DHW via electric resistance, and the 19.0 the period just before - so seems that only runs about 4kwh/day or so. Which is pretty good for DHW heating, IMO.)


----------



## velvetfoot (May 7, 2016)

4 kwh per day with a family = 120/mo, seems about right with what my TED is projecting.  I think I just saw the bump after turning off the boiler and reacted-really not that much.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (May 7, 2016)

I started looking at decreasing my gas consumption.  I started wondering if the showerhead was low flow because we always used more water than the neighbors who had a similar sized family.we swapped it out a couple weeks ago.  Old showerheads used between 5 and 7gpm.  New ones use 2.  If my hunch was right, we should cut water and gas to heat it.


----------



## maple1 (May 7, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> 4 kwh per day with a family = 120/mo, seems about right with what my TED is projecting.  I think I just saw the bump after turning off the boiler and reacted-really not that much.



Wouldn't that be more like $20/mo?


----------



## velvetfoot (May 7, 2016)

I meant 120 kwh/mo.  Yes, about 20 bucks.
The HPWH does seem to be running somewhat more; maybe it's me.


----------



## maple1 (May 7, 2016)

Ah, OK, right.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 7, 2016)

TradEddie said:


> Did you sign up for one of those cut price suppliers? Many of those jack up the price as soon as the introductory period is over. Check whether it was your consumption, or the price/kwh that went up.
> 
> TE


I did sign up for an alternative energy supplier for 36 months at $.76 per KWH. WHat i didnt know is that list changes on a daily basis. A few days later i saw an offering for .55 for 12 months ,the lowest i ever saw. I cant quit my .76 supppier without a big cancellation fee ,im stuck for 36 months.  Energy Consumers should be aware of this and dont lock in for a long period unless its a really superior deal.


----------



## maple1 (May 7, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I did sign up for an alternative energy supplier for 36 months at $.76 per KWH. WHat i didnt know is that list changes on a daily basis. A few days later i saw an offering for .55 for 12 months ,the lowest i ever saw. I cant quit my .76 supppier without a big cancellation fee ,im stuck for 36 months.  Energy Consumers should be aware of this and dont lock in for a long period unless its a really superior deal.



You said above you pay 0.11/kwh?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 7, 2016)

maple1 said:


> You said above you pay 0.11/kwh?


The generation rate is .076 ,the rest is meter charge and transmission and distribution. All in comes to about .11c Only part of the bill is competitive which is the generation part.


----------



## Brian26 (May 7, 2016)

Huge reduction in power costs coming July 1st here in CT. We are in the top 4 for the most expensive electricity in the US. 3 years ago when I moved into my house I was paying over .25 kwh delivered.

My target has been to keep my electric bill under $100. Running the heat pump and AC has spiked it above that as seen from my past usage.


http://www.nhregister.com/business/...-standard-service-rates-drop-for-rest-of-year

One of the major cost drivers on Connecticut electric bills — the generation rate — is going down for a large segment of Eversource Energy and United Illuminating Co. customers, according to state utility regulators.



The Public Utilities Regulatory Authority on Wednesday announced the standard service electric rates for the second half of 2016. In the case of Eversource Energy, it is the lowest it has been in more than a decade. Standard service customers let UI and Eversource Energy purchase generated electricity for them rather than buying it through a third-party provider.



Eversource’s residential generation rate for standard service customers will decrease by nearly 3 cents per kilowatt hour, from 9.555 cents to 6.606 cents. UI’s residential generation rate will drop from 10.7358 cents per kilowatt hour to 8.0224 cents per kilowatt hour.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 7, 2016)

Im wondering what effect all those renewable s coming online have on the price of electricity. Seems its trending down. Most of the competitive  generation choices are only a penny or 2 higher on the renewable s than on the fossil fuel generated.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 11, 2016)

I just signed up for 4.5c a KWH generation charge ,the best rate iv ever seen or had. MY old rate is 7.56 Kwh . I took a haircut on the early termination charge but i should make it back quickly. This rate would have saved me $42 this month alone. All together it will come out to about 8c total a Kwh once you add in the transmission and distribution charges vs 11c im paying now.


----------



## woodgeek (May 12, 2016)

Just remember Randy, your electric bills will necessarily skyrocket!

Somehow inventing a bunch of new power-generation technology, whose costs/W are falling on exponential learning curves, and building it at scale during a time of diminishing electrical demand will....oh you know.

Seriously, nice rate!


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 12, 2016)

Just this one change is the largest single savings i could have made, next up is trying to reduce demand. Energy choice is tricky ,there are many energy choice websites that dont actually have the lowest prices,my son showed me the best site. I was using a site that had 20% higher prices. Never dreamed that some site,s are con jobs.


----------



## Brian26 (May 14, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I just signed up for 4.5c a KWH generation charge ,the best rate iv ever seen or had. MY old rate is 7.56 Kwh . I took a haircut on the early termination charge but i should make it back quickly. This rate would have saved me $42 this month alone. All together it will come out to about 8c total a Kwh once you add in the transmission and distribution charges vs 11c im paying now.



Just got one of my lowest electric bill's in the 5 years I have been in the house. Eversource still kills you with distribution charges though. $53.66 in charges just to deliver $25.70 in actual wholesale power cost. Still paying about .20 a kwh here. Rates are scheduled to go down to the lowest in a decade starting July 1st as I previously  posted.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (May 14, 2016)

Distribution costs suck, but it does cost money to run a grid.  They are almost 3x my usage cost and bring me up to 25.4c per kwh.  It's still not a large amount to pay though.  9 something for the supply and 25 something delivery for 136kWh.


----------



## woodgeek (May 14, 2016)

I noticed that when PA finally opened its electricity market, the big player (that own the distribution grid) upped their distribution costs and reduced their generation costs by the same amount...so your bill stayed the same, and the amount you might save by switching generators dropped to a level most people wouldn't care about.  Kinda makes you wonder what the right breakdown of generation costs versus distribution costs was....the one stated 10 years ago, or last year?

Of course, the good news is that these numbers are vetted by a PUC, a public body with your best interests at heart, to protect you from a 'natural monopoly'....imagine if they weren't!!


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 14, 2016)

Ill be saving $40 a month on a $200 electric bill just by changing suppliers. Thats substantial,  a 20% reduction . I would have had to spend a fortune to do that with new appliances.  My new rate of 4.5 is about half the parent company PPL of around 8c . Its interesting to note most of these low cost suppliers are out of texas. Wind power?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 14, 2016)

Brian26 said:


> Just got one of my lowest electric bill's in the 5 years I have been in the house. Eversource still kills you with distribution charges though. $53.66 in charges just to deliver $25.70 in actual wholesale power cost. Still paying about .20 a kwh here. Rates are scheduled to go down to the lowest in a decade starting July 1st as I previously  posted.
> 
> View attachment 178744


Your getting robbed, id be figuring out a way to eliminate them altogether. Your usage is extremely low already. Your paying the same rates as hawaii.


----------



## Brian26 (May 14, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Your getting robbed, id be figuring out a way to eliminate them altogether. Your usage is extremely low already. Your paying the same rates as hawaii.



Hawaii is number 1 and here in CT we are number 2 for the highest rates in America.

Nothing I can do about it but conserve as much as possible. The wholesale cost of power is cheap at around .6 a kwh and I can choose my supplier.

Its the delivery charges that I can't do anything about. Eversource tried to double their base connection charge just to be connected to the grid last year to almost $35 a month but the state regulators shot it down.

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

Hawaii          26.77
Connecticut  20.68


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 15, 2016)

How about solar panels,your usage is low so wouldnt need that many?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 15, 2016)

Can your power company explain why other companies can provide transmission and distribution for a few cent a Kwh and they need so much more?


----------

