# generator recommendation



## rockreid (Jul 23, 2008)

I am looking to buy a backup generator for this winter in case the power goes out during a storm. The past 2 years here in CT I have been lucky that downed trees have not taken out the power in my neighborhood in a blizzard. But the odds are it will happen at some point. I am looking at Coleman 5500 amp models or similar models. Is the Coleman brand any worse than similarly rated amp brands? What is the best generator for the 5500 amp range?


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## Kenny1 (Jul 23, 2008)

Not a direct answer to your question, so pardon me while I head off on a tangent ;-)

A lot of people just go out and buy a generator to be prepared. However, I think that there are some other issues to consider.

1 - how much power do you need? Will you be powering a well pump, air conditioning, furnace, big screen TV, refrigerator, or just a couple of CF lights? Do you need a 240V output as well as a 120V? Add up all the loads you want to power at the same time, and take into account the extra start up current needed by motors and compressors.

2 - How are you going to connect to the loads? If you need to run hard wired appliances (furnace, well pump), you need to buy an approved transfer switch. Get it installed by a licensed pro, and inspected. Do not back feed thru a dryer outlet. Safety is very important. If you are only going to run smaller loads (fridge, pellet stove, etc), extension cords may be adequate.

3 - What type of fuel will the generator use? Gas is fairly typical, but does not store well. How long do you expect to use the generator for? Do you have room to store enough gas?  A smaller generator will use less fuel, but will provide less power.

4 - Where will you run the generator? It has to be outside (do not run in an attached garage!). Do you have a bit of shelter for it (keep it out of the rain/snow)? Some generators do not like to be run in cold weather (mine states under 40F, carb icing can occur unless you provide a cold weather shelter). Also, they can be very noisy.

For some, and inverter and a battery is the best emergency power setup. For others, a small gas generator is ideal. Whole home systems are also available. however, whichever route you go, be sure to plan for using the system!

We have a Briggs and Stratton PRO4000, nice machine, well regulated outputs, but the thing weighs a ton! It has the Vanguard engine, which is very quiet and seems very reliable. Don't forget to stock up on extra filters for your machine. I have also heard good things about the Honda and Yamaha generators.

Cheers

Kenny


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## begreen (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm using a Coleman 5Kw generator for just such purposes. It's a basic contractor model and does the job. Pros: cheap, easy to use, reliable. Cons: Carb tends to spill on full choke (only an issue when starting), chopped AC instead of pure sine wave - some electronics may balk, loud - poor muffling. My first choice after experiencing operation of a friend's unit would be a Honda of similar size due to ease of operation, clean AC and quiet running. But considering the random nature of outages, the Coleman has sufficed and is welcome when we have long outages (up to 7 days so far).


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## Backroads (Jul 23, 2008)

If you look around and *size* it properly for the application I don't think you can go wrong with ANY of the top reputable generator manufacturers.  My only suggestion is to buy it local maybe somewhere that can service it also.  Good Luck!


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## Hogwildz (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm weighing a automatic back up genset.
Something in the 18-20KW range.
And auto transfer, testing etc.
Gonna cost, but I want it.


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## begreen (Jul 23, 2008)

Hog, what are you going to power with 18-20kw? The average house runs fine on less than 7kw, especially in the winter. And with the dual furnace stoves you'll be running, the only thing you'll need to be powering is the refer running overtime.


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## Redox (Jul 23, 2008)

BeG, how are you getting chopped AC out of a generator, unless it has an inverter?  It might be just noisey, which is a problem with cheap generators.

I agree with Kenny, you need to figure out what you want to run and how you are going to run it before you buy it.  Also keep in mind that starting a motor will require more generator.  Check the specs to see what it is capable of starting and oversize from there.  Submersible well pumps, even though they are only 1/2 HP or so take a LOT of juice to start.  Sump pumps are also notorious for hard starting.

There are generators and then there are GENERATORS.  The cheap ones are going to be toast after about 1000 hours, while the good ones will keep on going and may be worth rebuilding if you ever wear it out.  The engine may say "Commercial" on it, but the generator is still a POS.  

We bought my parents a contractor grade generator from Grainger and they ran it for a lotta years before it finally blew a seal and hemmoraged all over the driveway.  That was the last Techumseh engine I will ever buy.  It was replaced with a Kohler genset with the Command V-twin and a 100 gal LP bottle and currently has several hundred hours on it with nothing but oil changes.  I bought the same set for our house and hooked it up to NG and now our power never goes out!  Actually, I put about 36 hours on it during the last big windstorm that came through here and ran everything, including a 2 ton heat pump and all the computers.  I think the neighbors were jealous, but I took in their frozen food and was giving out ice.  

I managed to pick these up after the Y2K scare as the local Kohler distributor had them sitting around the warehouse and wanted to get rid of them.  If I had to replace them, it would be with a real commercial unit (not the ones that HD sells) and have a Honda GX engine on it.  I think Northern has some like this, but you are going to pay upwards of $2K for a good one.  I think the Kohler lists for $3600 if memory serves.  An automatic transfer switch adds about another $1200, but there are cheaper manual options if you only want to run part of the house.  Spend the bucks on a good one and you will never be disappointed.  Sorry; I'm a generator snob...

Chris


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## eba1225 (Jul 23, 2008)

I have a 7500W, 10500W(Peak), Porter Cable, Gasoline for fuel, it can power the whole house except for the A/C.  It is kept in the shed and when run pulled to the shed door.  I have a long 75' 220v (4wire 6 gauge) extension cord that I plug into the generator and then into the house. The house side is breakered as well as the generator side.

I have to roll out the wire everytime I need to use it but that is not too often, so I tolerate it. 

Erik


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## velvetfoot (Jul 23, 2008)

I just had a thread for my recent generator experience:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/19946/
I found a cheap to safely interlock a backfeed from SquareD.  It installed easily.

I would second knowing what your loads are.  
I tried powering my well pump (deep) from the 5000w/6000w peak generator I have and it would not do it (scary-don't want to blow anything expensive like that up.)
It works just fine with the 7500w generator.

I got a multimeter that clamps on wires to measure current.
The pump drew 37 amps surge and 11.7 amps steady state.
It's powered off a 30 amp breaker on the main panel.


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## savageactor7 (Jul 23, 2008)

We were looking at a HD 7k LP generator, it was completely auto turn on/off with it's own self contained shelter. I didn't really want a gas gen because of gas storage issues. But our LP gas company advised us to get the smallest gen that would serve our house needs and not be talked into a 12k gen. Well HD had them for 3k installed and it was to be our next major home improvement...but our HD closed and forgot about it until I saw this thread. Guess I go price one at Lowes unless I hear other advice here.


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## rockreid (Jul 23, 2008)

thanks... I am on well water so I guess I better go for a bigger unit. I have been wanting to install a auto-switching 12-15kw standbuy unit (LP) but installing the propane tanks and everything electrically adds up to around $14k. My hope was that a small generator would be good enough in the meantime to get me through a winter or two, but it looks like my electric loads may be too much. I may just go ahead and bite the bullet and go out on a limb for the full-on standbuy unit...which brands are best? I know of Kohler, Generac, and Guardian. What is the best brand and what brand should I avoid?


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## carbon neutral (Jul 23, 2008)

I bought a cheap generator because we do not lose power very often so I don't anticipate much need for it.  In six years I have only used it once so for the use factor cheap is good.  The noise level did bother me so I put on a car muffler which helps a lot.  The generator has a 3/4" NPT fitting for its exhaust so I adapedet 3/4" black iron pipe to a flexible exhaust pipe then connected that to the muffler.  I welded the mufler to the generators frame so it all fits together nicely.  Total cost to do this was maybe $30.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 23, 2008)

I still think you should measure the loads.  My well pump is 450' deep.


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## Gator eye (Jul 23, 2008)

I kept it simple with my back up gen.

I just got a 3000 watt honda inverter that is small enough that I use for camping also. When I loose power about the only thing I run is the blower fan on the wood stove and if need be I power up the fridge or freezers every now and again to keep them cold.

I disconnect the main breaker that runs the blower fan and have a plug made up that goes from the gen. to a wall socket thats on the same run with the blower fan.


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## joemat (Jul 23, 2008)

If quiet operation is important, look at Honda.  You will pay a premium, but it is a quality product.  I think they are running promotions on their units now. 

I have also been tempted to to a "whole-house" auto-transfer system. I like the Kohler systems as I need broad coverage.


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## savageactor7 (Jul 23, 2008)

Rocky we're also on a well and have to pump water. Now if you include the refer/freezer throw in a few extra circuits for TV or a computer a 6-7k generator will meet all those demands and have power in reserve. You just have to be careful with heating esp hair dryers. And be mindful that it's an emergency and you're generating the power...so easy on those switches.   I had 3 different pros tell me this system would work... 2 electricians and the gas company rep  btw we have one of those large gas storage tanks.


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## aussieblake (Jul 23, 2008)

I am a licensed electrical contractor and do electrical design for a engineering firm (just letting you know my background). The other day while talking to a friend (also an electrician), he told me about an add on kit he installed on his panel board which is nothing more than a mechanical interlock between the main breaker and the breaker used to connect the generator. A plate goes over the handle of the main breaker and while in the on (closed) position the generator breaker is blocked from being closed (turned on), eliminating the chance of back feeding to the utility and the chance of having both sources of electricity fault in the panel board. Personally I have not seen the set up, and obviously it would be brand specific (maybe model specific). and the panel board would need a main breaker (presumably a seperately mounted main, which means the main is not mounted directly to the bus bars with the branch breakers). I know lots of older houses do not have a main breaker so this may not be for everyone. But if a transfer switch is installed they can cost quite a bit. 

I know GE makes a generator panel that serves its purpose, just not something I would want to use and the price is probably around $100. It is defintitely designed for the residential market.

Lots of the posts above are right on the money, you must know all of the loads that require generator back up before sizing one (remember motor loads have high end rush). My house is on well (water is a necessity) I have a propane furnace (not much load at all), central A/C, electric cooking, propane water heater, two refrigerators and one deep freeze. More than likely if you have electric heat or water heater you are not going to be able to operate it on a generator without paying quite a bit of money for larger generator. I have a Coleman 6250 running watts and 8500 peak watts bought from HD (it has the Honda engine which is great) when the generator is needed we exercise load management, use the well only when the fridges and freezer are not on we try to run them only at night while everyone is asleep. We can not run our Central A/C, but ceiling fans and lights are no problem. We can watch TV (just not the big screen, to protect it from the power fluctuations of a generator). Our cooking stove is electric, so cooking during an outage is done on a hot plate, microwave, and toaster oven (but with the new T6 this may change in the winter time). I have lost power for 5 days (thankfully it was in May), but the houses to the east and south of me lost power for seven days this past winter, needless to say I am ready (other than the $4 a gallon gas to run the generator).

I sure hope this makes sense.

aussieblake

aussieblake


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## velvetfoot (Jul 23, 2008)

An interlock by SquareD is what I installed.  It was $60.


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## glacialhills (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't know about the rest of you, But we usually lose power due to big wind storm event in the summer or else a winter ice/snow storm. Either way unless you have your gas already stored at home, you are SOL and wont be able to get gas for a while if at all with all the trees down blocking the road and snow drifts. And then who's to say the gas station will have power or gas? I don't know anyone that has enough gas on hand to run a generator for more than a couple hours in an emergency. I think the only really reliable way to run a Generator in an emergency is from your large 500gal propane tank or as I was reading on another thread.. A wood gassification modified engine.


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## Highbeam (Jul 23, 2008)

Hi Glacial,

We have lots of power outages and the urban towns either have power due to their underground lines or they get it back much sooner than the rural folks. The gas stations will have gas in all but the big emergencies and widespread disasters. When setting up your system you need to decide whether you are preparing for total isolation for a day, month, year, or what. The normal guy will prepare for the normal outage and that would be better than most folks who are not prepared for anything.

In the last few decades our local power outages have never lasted longer than two weeks and when they did last that long you knew it and could prepare for it both before and after the storm by stocking up on fuel and essentials. 

When you really need gasoline for your genset you can siphon off of your trucks, lawnmower, etc. and have quite a bit. A typical standby genset can run for at least 10 hours on 5 gallons. There is a point during an extended outage when you need to turn the thing off to conserve fuel. You will decide what is truly important, for example, I would rather let the steaks thaw in the freezer and drink warm beer than not have enough fuel to run the genset to bring up well water to fill the toilets. Lots of BBQs going on when the power is out for a week around my area.

If you are truly trying to prepare for a long term disaster then you are the extreme minority and you need to be looking at off-grid setups with batteries and solar power, food stashes, guns and ammo, etc. The rest of the folks are just trying to stay comfortable and to prevent expensive damages to their property. Wood heat is a major energy independence strategy.


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## Redox (Jul 23, 2008)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> An interlock by SquareD is what I installed.  It was $60.



Velvetfoot, that link in the original thread is dead.  Do you have another one? 

Chris


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## IowaBrian (Jul 23, 2008)

I agree with Highbeam, a generator with a 5 gal jug of fuel will get you up and running, if the town is dark and no way to get fuel for days and drifts to the top of house then you need something besides what will get most people by.  As for running loads with high start up need you can use a hard start cap (soft start?)  it will take care of the high power needed to get the motor going then the generator can keep it running just fine.  Now a small generrator still won't power your AC but if you bought a small generator you are not looking to power that.  During the floods here in Iowa Lights, radio and hot plate get things back to some what normal.  Everyone was cooking on the gas grills  but it does rain and in the morning going outside to fry a egg gets old.   It has been over a month sincethe floods and some people are still using a small generator for power, you just learn what is needed and keep it simple.  Just my .02


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## carbon neutral (Jul 23, 2008)

My small generator 5.5KW will not power my CAC, but I can power a window a/c.  I really only like A/C in the bedroom so that is fine.  Again like highbeam said this is emergency power so some sacrifice will need to be made or a lot of money will need to be spent which is not practical for the majority of us.


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## begreen (Jul 23, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Rocky we're also on a well and have to pump water. Now if you include the refer/freezer throw in a few extra circuits for TV or a computer a 6-7k generator will meet all those demands and have power in reserve. You just have to be careful with heating esp hair dryers. And be mindful that it's an emergency and you're generating the power...so easy on those switches.   I had 3 different pros tell me this system would work... 2 electricians and the gas company rep  btw we have one of those large gas storage tanks.



Exactly. When one is on a generator one can manage power. There is no need to run everything at once. Let the pump build up full pressure in the storage tank. Then turn off the pump and turn on the furnace or refrig. etc. We went for 7 days on a managed 4.8kw generator power and did fine. No food lost. And that included a long extension cord to my neighbor's freezer. Ran it 2 hrs in the morning and 3 hrs at night.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 23, 2008)

I would love to get by on that 5kw generator, and I'm tempted to try it with the new setup which might have less impedence (if that's the right word), but I'm paranoid about blowing out that well pump with the 37 amps surge.  If my math is right, 37 amps * 240 volts = 8880 watts.


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## rockreid (Jul 23, 2008)

been researching and looking at a 17kw Kohler unit. With my well pump, sewage pump, and 2 sump pumps I need to make sure they all are functioning along with the garage door opener, the Jotul 550, the igniter for my oil furnace, electric water heater, and electric kitchen appliances. I have yet to call an electrician so he may recommend a different kw unit.


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## Highbeam (Jul 23, 2008)

Holy smokes Rocky, you want to run all of that at the same time? So well pump at 9000 watts (surge), 3 small pumps at say (3000 watts total?) water heater at 6000 watts, electric kitchen appliances like fridge, range, oven, microwave, coffee pot, say 10,000 watts, means you're looking at a 30 KW genset. 

Do you really need to run all of these at once? Water, sewer, sumps, and fridge, are all needed but none of them really need to be run all at once so by managing your power needs you could get by with a 10KW  genset and save loads of money on genset and fuel. 

Does anyone own a tractor? You can buy a PTO generator at 14 KW for pretty small money. In fact, you could buy a tractor AND a PTO generator for less than many of the commercial 14-20 KW gensets. Hmmmmmm

I equipped my main house electrical panel with a whole house transfer panel made by Connecticut Electric that is a premade version of velevetfoots interlock kit. Works the same way. I MUST manage my power with breakers since the electric water heater and electric wall heaters are automatic.


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## trailblaster (Jul 23, 2008)

We have a 12k generator with a 220 direct connect to 10 beaker box connects to gas furnace and water heater,well and septic pump, fridge, microwave, most room lights(all CF bulbs), tv (of course satellite), and to our 90gal and 150g fish tanks. .  We have had power go out for a week at a time and only use a few gallons a day to run it.  We leave the garage door lights on(separate meter than the house) so we know when to turn off generator and switch back to main power.  Also, you can put in a claim with the electric company and usually get back around $200 without a hassle for power outages longer than one day.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 23, 2008)

Knowing when the power comes back on with the interlock setup could be a problem.  I have a voltage detector (kinda shaped like a pen) that buzzes when near electricity, so my plan is to put it on the wires going to the main breaker, and maybe I'll hear it if it goes off.  I don't know if this would actually work, but the detector seems to have a pretty good life on it when it's turned on.


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## glacialhills (Jul 23, 2008)

Yes Highbeam, I agree that for most people just having a gen and a can of gas would be enough to get them through, but here in Michigan I live out on a dirt road and my nearest neighbor is about 1/2 mile down the road. The road is all wooded and hilly. There have been a few instances when the road was impassable due to snow drifts or the straight line wind event where it knocked 30-40 trees across the road. County did not plow/chop us out for 2-4 days. If our power goes out for more than a day or two I would really have a hard time just running the wood/propane furnace blowers and a couple lights on the gas I could get out of the tanks of the car and truck.Even if I only ran it for a few hours to get the temp up and run the well to fill up a bunch of buckets for washing and flushing the toilet, I dont think I could hold out for more than 3-4 days till The wife and kids were very unhappy. I just think for only a few hundred bucks more it makes sense to get a propane conversion kit for your gen.and have the option of running on either. Hey you can run on gas for those short 6-24 hour events but for more than that I think it makes sense to have a larger supply of stable, storable fuel.And at the price of gas, I just dont keep that much extra these days (even with stabil added) so as not to chance it going bad. I for one would hate to be caught in a blizzard trying to get my family (3 kids under 13 and one on the way) heat, water, food, ect ect. and have a perfectly fine generator with no gasoline but  a big 500gal propane tank 3/4 full sitting out there. If you heat with propane already and have a large propane tank or can figure out how to make a wood gassifier to power your generator with cheap wood chips, why not use them and be set for ANY event. (cept maybe huge terror attack).


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## velvetfoot (Jul 23, 2008)

Or, if you heat with oil, you could get a diesel generator.


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## glacialhills (Jul 23, 2008)

Yep, exactly Velvetfoot


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## Redox (Jul 24, 2008)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Or, if you heat with oil, you could get a diesel generator.



...except that diesel generators start at about $10K.

I finally got to burn in our genset last month after a huge windstorm knocked us out for about 42 hours.  It was kind of warm and I was mostly concerned about food going bad.  I have a transfer switch that lets me dump the whole house on the generator and run anything I want, within reason.  We ran a 2 ton heat pump, a big chest freezer, 22cf refrigerator, all the CFLs I could turn on, 3 computers and network equipment (DSL stays up in a power failure, BTW) and had enough for intermittent loads like the sump pump without worrying about anything tripping.  We ran for about 16 hrs/day for 2 days and my gas bill went up about 30 therms over our usual gas consumption for the month.  It works out to about $1.50 an hour, not bad for having the AC on!  I've found that it takes a lot of gas just to spin it over, so if you are going to run it, you might as well run it hard.  

Just to see what it would do, I turned on the 4500 watt hot tub heater along with AC and was able to pull the generator down to 50 HZ at wide open throttle with just electrical draw.  It ran this way for about 5 minutes and nothing tripped.  I was also able to start the 3 HP log splitter without a problem and it has a 60 amp inrush.  We have gas hot water and range, so they are no issue, but my parents are all electric and report no problems.  You have to be careful when the water heater is on, but the surface elements on a cooktop are only about 1800 or 2400 watts each and aren't a big deal when you have 8500 watts available.

We both have Kohler 8.5 RMY generators that were superceded by the RES generators, but same specs; just more bells and whistles.  My father reports that his burns about a gallon of LP an hour, which is cheap if you consider the consequences of frozen pipes, bad food or a motel stay.  They have lost power for 9 days at a time and it isn't unusual to be out 2-4 days.  We used to have to worry about keeping large quantities of gasoline around, but now a 120 gal tank will hold him long enough to ride out most problems and call in a delivery.  I woulda gotten a bigger tank, but...

http://www.kohlerpower.com/resident...mber=13561&categoryNumber=13061&prodnum=54361

These things are really commercial duty units and the 8.5 kw actually has a 12 kw head on it with a smaller engine.  It has an electronic governor and voltage regulation on it that is top notch and should be almost impossible to burn out.  I think these list at $3600, but I've seen them online for under $3000.  It's definitely overkill for me in the 'burbs, but out in the boonies, this thing could literally be a lifesaver.  I don't sell them, but I know a few people that have them and all are happy they spent the big bucks.  The automatic transfer switch is a luxury, but if you travel and leave the house unattended, or have someone sick or elderly at home, you can be pretty sure you aren't going to lose power for more than about 30 seconds.  They have a 5 year warranty on them now, so they must be pretty good, then.

BTW, I've noticed that whenever they talk about how many houses can run on a megawatt, it works out to about 10 kw per house.  Obviously, you can get by on a lot less, but just make sure you can start your well pump, or you might as well not have it, IMHO.  

Just my .02
Chris


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## FrankIvy (Jul 24, 2008)

I'd say invest in a battery back up system - really just a bank of marine batteries and an inverter.  You can get a 220V inverter for 110 bucks plus shipping.  Back wire into your panel through a breaker, and run your critical elements off the batteries when the power goes out.

If you set up with a lap top, LED lights in choice spots, and so on, then you should be able to run enough off of a sizable battery bank for a long stretch.

Advantages:
1.  No gas/diesel.
2.  Can be switched on easily, inside home (throw main breaker OFF first, of course, or get a subpanel like you would for a generator).
3.  Charge easily with cheap battery charger.
4.  Long life (10-20 years or more).
5.  Will be usable when gas/diesel are not available.
6.  No noise.
7.  No hard starting/maintenance.

Of course, if you want to run your house like with the line voltage on, then this isn't for you.

If you want a relatively cheap, quick, easy way to keep critical components on, then this is it.

I'm biased, of course, as I expect diesel/gas shortages within about 3 years, but I expect the electric to stay on for at least another 10, fully, and 5-20 more thereafter rolling.

Another benefit is that, if you ever add solar panels, you have the batteries already.


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## FrankIvy (Jul 24, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> velvetfoot said:
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Not true.

I got mine, delivered, for about 1,300$.

That was 2 years ago.

It's 6,000 watts, as I recall, and a Chinese make.  Battery and pull start, and, being a diesel, it will run forever in theory, but, of course, you'll need diesel.

I'm selling it this summer.


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## Hogwildz (Jul 24, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Hog, what are you going to power with 18-20kw? The average house runs fine on less than 7kw, especially in the winter. And with the dual furnace stoves you'll be running, the only thing you'll need to be powering is the refer running overtime.


True, but the ones I am looking at are set up by the circuits they can hold. A 16 will hold 16 circuits. slightly less with central AC and a couple other electric guzzlers.
I want to truly run as much of the "whole" house as possible. Plus I have a sub panel in the garage for the addition. Not sure if that would be able to be tied into the transfer panel or not.
Between the sub panel & main breaker panel, I have prolly well over 18 circuits. but lighting and low power users shouldn't be a big problem.
Want to handle prolly 2 or 3 larger ductless A/C units (down the road), the well, electric oven, etc. I'll talk with a few electricians prior to purchasing.
The other fact I like is the larger units are water cooled. WHich from what I have been reading, have fewer problems than the air cooled.


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## begreen (Jul 24, 2008)

Take a look at a Kohler 8.5KW. When the power is out it is not wise to run everything like nothing happened, that is unless your uncle just passed a gas well onto you. 

But why do you want a generator. For those kind of bucks you should be able to run a big honking extension cord to that glowing nuke down the road a piece.


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## savageactor7 (Jul 24, 2008)

Last night we went to Lowe's and priced an automatic Centurion gen...it's 7k if run on LP and 6k for NG. With taxes the cost was $2010 all we have to do is pay for the installation. Now our handyman Joe said he could get one and install with everything we needed for less than 2500. imo that's a reasonable since a couple of 3 times over the years we've been without power for more than a week. And since national grid took over the net here the  usual 3 hour pole down delay has become an 8hr ordeal. The selling point for me is that we have a huge LP storage tank so now I don't have to run around hustling for fuel. I keep 10gallons handy for all the gas engines now and I think it's to much to store...it doesn't have time to go bad more or less a safety thing...

...but if 2k is too much too spend they had a lot of nice brand name gens up there for a third of the Centurions price.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 24, 2008)

Just to chime in one more time, a portable generator is portable, so you can use it for a project somewhere you want to power something electric.  So, it will do double duty.


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## JustWood (Jul 24, 2008)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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2 years ago when I was looking at a generator for the mill I ran across a place on ebay that had rebuilt Detroit 2-71 generators at  18KW for around $4500. This engine is well know to be indestructable,very fuel efficient and run for 20,000+ hours without any problems. I'll see if I can find the seller again.

I ended up buying mine from Diesel Service and Supply out of Colorado.  The shipping to NY was rediculous but I saved a ton of money buying it there compared to a dealer around here. 

This thing is massive . Weighs in at around 8-9000 lbs.
 At 250 KW I could probably power half the town I live in. LOL


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## jrousell (Jul 24, 2008)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Last night we went to Lowe's and priced an automatic Centurion gen...it's 7k if run on LP and 6k for NG. With taxes the cost was $2010 all we have to do is pay for the installation....



I have been thinking about just this setup.

I live in a  somewhat remote area, on top of a huge hill, and we just lost power for 4 dasy this spring.   we made do with an old  portable gas unit, but if it happennend in teh middle of winter I wouldn;t liek it.  It was a 5K unit- and like some other sit would not power our 500 ft well pump very well at all... spotty at best.

Kepp us informed as to your progress and  likes/dislikes...


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## Redox (Jul 24, 2008)

Savage, that Centurion unit (Generac) is built to meet a price point for the big box stores.  It really is nothing more than a portable generator in a metal box with a cheap transfer switch thrown in.  The engine is made by Generac and not well regarded in the small engine biz.  Do me a favor and look at the Kohler; it's a world apart in quality.  It's probably double the price but 10 times the machine.  If it is really too much, buy a Honda portable and make do.  Those little Generacs aren't worth the money.

Hog, don't overbuy on the generator.  For what it sounds like you want to  do, the 12 is probably more than enough.  It will start 4 tons of AC at once and probably 3 smaller units started individually.  I can run a 2 and a 2-1/2 ton heat pump on my 7KW.  The bigger generator is going to suck up a lot of fuel just to spin over.

Chris


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## savageactor7 (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up Redox...and I had 2 electricians tell me they were the cats meow too. 

You seem well versed on gens can you recommend another LP gen system...or is the Kohler one, if it is that's what I'm buying. Like I said the gas rep warned me about not getting a 12k cause we don't need it and the smaller one that met our needs would run longer in a real emergency...and that's why I want to stay with LP.

edit 
Chris what do you think of this one?

http://www.kohlerpower.com/resident...Number=13561&categoryNumber=13061&filter_0=LP Gas&filter_1=8.5 kW&filter_2=60 Hz&xmlFlag=true


whoops you can't get there from that link but it's the 8.5RES at 60hertz  model I want your opinion on..


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## Redox (Jul 25, 2008)

Yep, thats the one:  http://www.kohlerpower.com/resident...Number=13561&categoryNumber=13061&filter_1=LP Gas&prodnum=54361  

8.5 KW should be big enough for most people, unless you have unusually large motors to start, or a lot of electric resistance you need to run.  Since most of us have woodstoves, this is probably not the case.  I have an older 8.5 RMY running on NG.  It is pretty much the same engine/generator as the RES, but includes the battery charger and a newer version of electronics that has diagnostics.  If you check the spec page, it shows that the 8.5 is capable of 23 kVa of motor starting and 100% load acceptance, which means that you can drop the entire 8500 watts on the generator at once and it will take it.  23 kVa works out to about 96 amps of power.  I can tell you that mine barely grunts when I start the new log splitter (3 HP and 60 Amps of inrush).  I have overloaded it to 9500 watts on LP and it stays in tolerance for voltage and HZ.  An electric water heater will tax it a bit, but still leave you 50% for everything else.  This is one beefy generator!

I used to work in the HVAC department of a company that was a distributor for Kohler.  I befriended a couple of their mechanics and got to hear some of their war stories.  Generac made their fortune on building portable generators for other manufacturers and has branched out into the commercial field, but is a relatively small player there.  The only other major manufacturer out there building anything this size is Onan/Cummins.  Both Onan and Kohler have marine and RV divisions, while Generac does not.  Onan shows a residential genset on their website, but for some reason, I can't get any info on it.  Their RV gensets are supposed to be pretty good, but I have no experience.

I do have a big deep cycle battery that I use with an inverter when I want to put the house on "silent run" and the entertainment center and all the computers are on UPS.  Almost makes me wish the power went out more so I could exercise everything more...

PM me if I can be of assistance.

Chris


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## savageactor7 (Jul 25, 2008)

OK then thanks for the advice Chris, i appreciate it.


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## cmonSTART (Jul 25, 2008)

I have to say, the Honda EU3000 and EU6500 generators are some of the nicest portable generators I have seen.  Great power.  Inverter type.  Whisper quiet.  VERY fuel efficient.  Kohler also makes a good unit.


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## Redox (Jul 25, 2008)

Wow!  I didn't realise Honda brought the inverter out in the larger models.  Wonder what that puppy costs?  It's even quieter at full load than the Kohler in an insulated box!  That automatic throttle has GOT to save some fuel...

Chris


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## cmonSTART (Jul 25, 2008)

ya, all the EU generators Honda makes are inverter units.  Great, very pure power which is actually better than what you typically get from your home outlets.  Safe to run laptops and computers on, etc.


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## rockreid (Jul 25, 2008)

I'm lining up contractors to take a look at my property... should I rent or buy a propane tank and is there normally a price difference from the propane company on fuel if you do so? Also a 250 gal LPG tank should be plenty for a couple of days, right?


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## Highbeam (Jul 25, 2008)

I read through the thread and want to clarify that if I already had a bulk propane tank then I would be all over setting my geneset up to run dual fuel or even propane only. It makes all the sense in the world. If for no other reason then that propane is only a few bucks a gallon vs. the 4.20 for gasoline. Storage issues, safety issues, large volume of gas on hand is great. 

To be honest with you guys, I do not own a fancy schmancy genset. I first owned a coleman 6850 with 11 HP tecumseh and it was a gas hog and loud but ran my welder. The generator head eventually died and I started shopping for a 3000 watt generator because 3000 watts is the amount needed to run an RV air conditioner unit. Well the RV crowd has very high praises for the excellent value of the Champion Power Equipment 3500/4000watt surge genset from many retailers including schucks. It cost 299$ and is a honda clone from China. The RV crowd is pretty funny and several have put this genset on a scope and the sine wave is very clean. These same folks have thousands of hours on the genset with excellent durability reports. So I bought one and it is very quiet (RV guys love that too) and fuel efficient. I can lift it and put it in my pickup. It has a 30 amp twistlok connection to feed my house with too. 

I see no reason that this genset couldn't be converted with a propane kit to be dual or tri fuel.


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## rockreid (Jul 26, 2008)

OK, so now looking at a Honda 6500isa, with a concern that this may not be enough to get my 3/4hp well pump going (170 feet down the hole). Honda is offering a free APC 10 cicruit transfer switch right now with the deal if you buy through their eStore- full retail $3999. The transfer switch I believe to be included in the deal is an APC UTS10BI (could be wrong) which I've found on the web for around $420- $460. Do Honda generators dealers usually give a little on price, or are they locked to Honda pricing?


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## begreen (Jul 27, 2008)

I have a friend with that exact setup and a 250' well. The Honda handles it easily.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 28, 2008)

Redox, that link still works but the forum doesn't seems to handle long urls, or whatever, so you have to cut and paste:
http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical Distribution/Load Centers/Accessories, Homeline (HOM, LK, PK, QOM)/1100HO0301.pdf 

On that transfer switch, which to my uneducated way of thinking seems very nifty but maybe too complicated with electronics, maybe vulnerable?
Plus, the well pump will take 2 breaker positions, and one each for the furnace, sump pump, stove fan, microwave, refrigerator, etc, that might not really leave much left for other stuff-those breakers get used up quick.

I think you should measure the surge current of the big loads, like I didn't do the first time. so you aren't guessing, and compare with the specs of the generator.  I actually looked on the web for the specs of that unit and I didn't come up with anything, but that just might mean I'm not too good at searching.


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## Redox (Jul 28, 2008)

OK, I found it!  For some reason, their website chokes on that URL with Firefox.

The P/N is QOCGK2 for the QO panel and lists for $70 and allows you to backfeed the whole panel off the generator.  I think I will go pick one of these up as I have been using this unsafe and very non code compliant method for a while now.  I have been taking the wires off the generator when it is not in use to prevent any possibility of a cross connect, but this appears to be a good solution.  Thanks for the info!

Grainger has a nice manual transfer switch that performs this function, but it runs around $500.  http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3ZB17  I have put one of these in for a buddy who has a 25KW PTO generator for his tractor and it works well.  We "accidentally" started his 5 to AC unit and couldn't figure out where all the current was going!  One problem is that it can't tell you when the utility power comes back on, so I wired up a neon indicator on the utility side to see what's going on.

The manual switches are good if you have a portable generator and need to get it out of the garage and hook it up.  The automatic switches are a luxury, unless you NEED the power to stay on.  The electronics actually run on 12 volts off the generator and are immune to most electrical surges.  They control all starting and stopping functions as well as the transfer back and forth.  They start around $1200, but are worth it if you have someone who may not be able to handle things on their own.  I am looking for one for my parents as their emergency subpanel is maxed out and they want more on it.  They also travel in the winter and worry about power failures.

The Kohler spec sheet is here:  http://www.kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g4097.pdf  It gives you all the particulars on the engine as well as fuel consumption data.  This is not a cheap generator, but if emergency power matters, I don't think there is a better tool for the job.

Chris


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## granpajohn (Jul 28, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I have a friend with that exact setup and a 250' well. The Honda handles it easily.


I guess yall know that the depth of the well doesn't matter. It's the depth of the water in the well, i.e. the head differential, that has to be pumped.


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## savageactor7 (Jul 28, 2008)

^ correct me if I'm wrong but does the depth really matter? Every electric engine has a surge when it 1st turns on...then it's running at a reduced wattage...Yes? So what does it matter if the depth is 35ft or 150ft?


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## rockreid (Jul 28, 2008)

ok, how about this for a generator transfer switch?

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect...te&utm_source=bizrate&utm_medium=shop+portals

Reliance Controls 12 circuit 100 amp w/ generator power inlet, (2) 240v breakers ....seems like it would work for my needs and not a bad price either.


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## glacialhills (Jul 29, 2008)

Too funny, I have the same champion gen set highbeam. Couldn't beat the price and like you said it runs quiet and very clean current. I did get a propane conversion kit for it about 230 bucks. no drilling required and can use both gas or propane.


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## Highbeam (Jul 29, 2008)

Glacialhills said:
			
		

> Too funny, I have the same champion gen set highbeam. Couldn't beat the price and like you said it runs quiet and very clean current. I did get a propane conversion kit for it about 230 bucks. no drilling required and can use both gas or propane.




Oooooh, where did you source the propane kit? and is there any difference in running/operation when on LPG?


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## glacialhills (Jul 30, 2008)

Here ya go Highbeam;    http://www.propane-generators.com/     The champion runs quite a bit smoother and a lot cleaner on propane (no fouling/ dust/ dirt pulled into float bowl like when the gen ran out of gasoline). Also no worries when ya loose your power when its ten below and you go to fire her up and find a gummed up carb cause ya haven't used it in a year or two. it also starts a lot easier when it cold out on propane.


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## Highbeam (Jul 30, 2008)

Thanks glacial, I have been reading and found that our 3500 watt gensets will run about 24 hours on a single standard sized BBQ tank of propane. The RV guys have been also making the conversions. Very cool to have the choice of LPG, NG, or gasoline depending on what's available or even the cheapest at the time.


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## sinnian (Aug 3, 2008)

I was at HD (Riverside Dr, Portland, ME) on Friday August 1 and saw that the had the Champion 3500 generators on clearance for $224.

Just thought I would throw that out.

~Jeff


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## bbb123 (Aug 5, 2008)

I have several generators on the farm.  The portable is 6kw will do essentials in my parents house (well, oil boiler, freezer, fridge and lights).  Then I have 2 25kw PTO driven they work good older one is 20 years old works everytime.  The big one I had to build a building around it.  It's 100kw 400 amp, power is 454 ci propane its hooked up to a automatic Asco transfer switch.  I bought it about 5 years ago it was a cell tower trade in only had 150 hours on it.  I think I paid about 5K for it fortunatly I have hardly used it I think it might suck some propane if I ever had to use it for an extended period.  I know one of the mechanics where I bought it and they just got a bunch of trade in units about 1/2 that size and they want around 5k for them.  They can be set up for propane or NG.


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## glacialhills (Aug 5, 2008)

If anyone is still is unsure what to get and wants a guide to buying a generator this one explains everything pretty well.  http://www.propane-generators.com/buyers-guide.htm


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