# Which flush Insert?



## fmelani (Aug 18, 2011)

I have recently been shopping for a wood burnings insert for my home.  I want one to help heat the house efficiently (supplement our oil furnace) however the wife wants something that looks nice (which seems to be a trend with many getting an insert).  I like the units with higher BTU output, larger firebox, electric blowers and longer burn times.  I also tend to like the look of a completely flush insert.

To give you a little background and information;
I have replaced 90% of the windows in the house and had insulating cellulose blown into the walls.  We went from burning around 1,100 gallons of oil a year to between 600 and 700 per year.  Our home is 2,700 square foot with a center fireplace, which I have read on this site to be a good thing for heating with an insert.  

The units that I have looked at are the Jotul Rockland C550 CF, Avalon Perfect Fit Flush Mount and Lopi Declaration Plus.  More recently I have also looked at the non-flush Quadra Fire Voyageur and Pacific Energy Summit.  The Jotul is our favorite but based on each companyâ€™s website information it is difficult to tell which most efficient just comparing numbers is.  After measuring and recording the fireplace opening our local dealer said we could easily handle the Jotul or Avalon.  

If you could offer any insight into which unit would offer the most heat and longest burn times based on experience, I would appreciate.  Also any insight into the numbers would be helpful, example would be why would they list the Quadra Fire as being able to heat 2,400 square feet but only but out 46,000 BTUâ€™s?  Should I disregard the BTU and efficiency numbers and look specifically at Log length and firebox capacity?  Any insight would be greatly appreciated.  Spreadsheet below is something I put together to help compare.  Sorry, its a bit of an eye sore.


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## joescho (Aug 18, 2011)

I have the Jotul C550 Rockland.  I can get about 5  hours burn time before I need to give the fire some attention.  Now there's probably others that can do better with the same stove; I would think wood moisture content will play a factor.

My insert is in my basement, and I start a fire and open the door so the heat can come up.  I know that within 2 or 2 1/2 hours of me starting a fire the basement is just about toasty and I'm ready to open the door and let the heat come up.

As far as looks, the insert is a really nice insert, but again they're all nice.  The Rockland has a large glass surface which allows you to see the fire if you're wife wants to see the fire.

The bottom line is I think the BTU ratings for the stoves are valid, but they are in certain conditions and are what the stoves can potentially do.  I don't really look into that - I just know that I can start a fire and my house starts getting warm.  The larger the firebox the more wood you shuold be able to stuff in it, the longer the burning times.

I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the inserts you are looking at.  Get the best for your budget and I think you'll be happy with it.

Just my 2 cents......

Joe


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## Stax (Aug 18, 2011)

CT...nice post.  Just so you know, because of faceplates, flush inserts aren't completely flush.  I just purchased the Flush Wood Insert from Travis Industries (Lopi Declaration) and it has to sit 1.25" from fireplace opening to accommodate the faceplate.  I believe that is the same situation with all inserts.  For me, I loved the Declaration because of style (2 arched doors) and it being flush, large firebox, bypass damper and Travis' reputation.  As I've learned here, firebox capacity is a very important factor in selecting a stove.  

As for the above, Jotul makes a great stove.  I didn't select it because of firebox capacity.  Pacific Energy is based on the West Coast.  None of the local stove shops sold them, however they do have a really good reputation.  Avalon, also a Travis product is basically the same thing.  Being biased, you can't go wrong.  I didn't like Regency & Quadrafire units because of small fireboxes and they werent flush units.

To sum, I'd stick with Jotul, PE & Travis.  Go as large as you can with firebox capacity while keeping style in mind.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 18, 2011)

I have a small Quad flush insert, 2700i, because of existing zero clearance prefab and external  contraints (wife).
I was looking at the brochure for the Voyageur...very nice, and not that much more than the 2700i, about I bet the cast iron surround will be a couple of bucks.
Are there any reservations, however, for an insert made of cast iron that can't be inspected too easily?
Again, the bigger the better.  I still managed to go through 5 cords last winter.


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## mhrischuk (Aug 18, 2011)

I did a lot of research and ended up with the Hearthstone Clydesdale. Take a look at one in person and feel the door. Look inside... read all about it. Once I did that I really fell in love with it. I installed mine last week but haven't burned yet so I can't tell you how well it heats. I am expecting very good results based on my research though. The nice thing about it is you can install it flush or extended out on the heart.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 18, 2011)

Looks beautiful!

Not to be critical on something that's probably not complete yet, but I had a spark come out from my stove last year and burn a hole in an oriental rug.
That was with a flush unit that just managed to satisfy requirements.


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## mhrischuk (Aug 18, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Looks beautiful!
> 
> Not to be critical on something that's probably not complete yet, but I had a spark come out from my stove last year and burn a hole in an oriental rug.
> That was with a flush unit that just managed to satisfy requirements.



You are correct. I am a couple inches short. I am getting some protection for the rug. It got burned already by the open fireplace when a coal rolled out.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 18, 2011)

oooooo.  We actually sent it away to get fixed.
May I ask what you're doing for protection?  
I just put a sort-of-matching cheap rug there; nothing fireproof.


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## mhrischuk (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm gonna look for something fireproof that looks half decent.


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## fmelani (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for all the responses, really like the Clydesdale that is one nice insert.  There seems to be a very strong loyal following for the Jotul 550; read this thread a few times to get some wood burning tips https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/24713/

I did not think there would be a tremendous difference between most of these units except for maybe the Summit which seems to put out much more heat.  

How did your rug get burned?  Does the heat from the unit cause any other damage to the house?  Sorry this is my first insert and just want to be sure.  

Spoke to the insurance company and inserts will not change the homeowners policy, however she did say a free standing stove would adversely affect the policy cost.

Would still like to hear more from a comparative standpoint, any additional opinions would be appreciated!


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## kingquad (Aug 18, 2011)

mhrischuk said:
			
		

> I'm gonna look for something fireproof that looks half decent.



How about a tempered glass pad.  Then you don't have to look for something specific to match your room/carpet.  Morso makes one that's 8mm thick.  Hell, a local glass place could probably do one even cheaper to whatever dimensions you specify.


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## joefrompa (Aug 18, 2011)

CTJotul - 

The size of your house is large for heating with wood. For the sake of assumption, I'm going to assume you have all the wood you'd need and you are willing to burn regularly to save money on oil costs (speaking of which, you can get those stove prices down a bit...).

Look for a stove with a 3.0-3.5 cubic foot firebox to heat your home. If you just want to "put a dent in" the oil bill and provide a space-heating effect from the wood stove, and you don't think you'll have tons of wood, then maybe consider the 2.2-2.5 cubic foot fireboxes

Thinnk about Steel vs. Iron stoves. Steel stoves tend to be cheaper and put out heat faster. I have a steel Lopi stove myself. I find that when I go to my in-laws house (who has a 2.3 cubic foot 7 year old Jotul), I vastly prefer the feel of their flush-mounted iron stove. Both toss off heat, but cast iron radiant heat feels different. So

Ignore square footage ratings, efficiency ratings, and BTUs. They are pointless. In almost all the modern stoves, they are exceedingly close in terms of technology and ability to extract X amount of heat from Y amount of wood given the same burning patterns.

I would recommend quadra-fire, but that voyageur's firebox is way too small if that number is right. Aside from that, they don't have flush mounted stoves.

...

On the list you provided, I would get the Jotul. It's flush mounted. It has an ~2.9 cubic foot firebox in a great layout. The cast iron will be very satisfying to feel. From personal experience with Jotul's, you'll get a very long burn time out of that using seasoned hardwoods. Put in a big chunk on a bed of hot coals and I wouldn't doubt 10-12 hours is possible. I think it'll make you the happiest of all your choices.

One last thing I'll say is that Jotul's, well taken care of, seem to hold their value very well in the used section...

Joe

P.s. I moved into my home and immediately installed a wood stove a bit too small for it (2.2 cubic foot firebox, ~2200 square feet). It was not well insulated or sealed. Through careful/judicious heating, we used about 3 cords of semi-seasoned wood and 150 gallons of heating oil last winter. That's very aggressive, but I think I'll beat it this year.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 19, 2011)

If an insert does stick out, even some, it should work better when the power is out (no fan).


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## jeff_t (Aug 19, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> If an insert does stick out, even some, it should work better when the power is out (no fan).



A little more on this ....   http://chimneysweeponline.com/hosummitblower.htm


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## Dix (Aug 19, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> If an insert does stick out, even some, it should work better when the power is out (no fan).



+1.

The fan on the PE is intermittently noisey (note to self, take it out and get a new one, now). It's under warranty, so it will be replaced. Last winter was pretty brutal for us, and often I had to turn the fan off, and in it's place I put a simple box fan blowing across the glass, and it worked really well. Even on a generator, I could run a fan to help heat the house. With out the fan, I was still able to maintain 68f in the house when it was 20 outside, using ceiling fans to help move the heat.  Had I no electric, with out a generator, we'll be warmer than with a flush insert.  


FYI, I'm at 2000 Sf with a center chimney. If the back of the chimney is exposed, it will help radiate heat into the house for atleast a day, helps alot.


Welcome to the forums


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## velvetfoot (Aug 19, 2011)

I had a quad 2100 insert (discontinued) at our last house, which stuck out, and it worked pretty well without a fan. 
The new flush one, not so much, though it does help.


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## jatoxico (Aug 19, 2011)

With a name like CTJotul I guess we know which way you are leaning! I just put down a deposit on a Jotul C550 today. The price you quote is a good one, had to pay a little more for mine. I also looked at the Lopi/Avalon since I really want the flush mount due to configuration of hearth and room but they will not fit. From reading experiences of others on this site you are picking from good products and are likely to be happy regardless of what you choose.

One feature on the Jotul that may seem minor but day to day should be nice is the manual fan switch. Many stove owners complain their fans take too long to come on. It might seem trivial but from first hand experience it is a little frustrating to have a hot stove not kick on.  Ability to accept large logs is also important IMO especially if you intend to buy some or all your wood, sometimes you get what you get.


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## pharmsaler (Aug 19, 2011)

You have to check out the Enviro Boston 1700 insert.  I ordered mine this week and should be here in1-2 weeks.  I am surprised not more people have talked about the enviro inserts on here


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## pharmsaler (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh by the way.  I got mine for $2200 plus tax,  Cast iron, in black, 74000 btu, and I plan on burning all ECO-Bricks.  Selling locally for $170 a ton in Orrville Ohio


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## jatoxico (Aug 19, 2011)

pharmsaler said:
			
		

> You have to check out the Enviro Boston 1700 insert.  I ordered mine this week and should be here in1-2 weeks.  I am surprised not more people have talked about the enviro inserts on here



Was very close to pulling the trigger on the Boston, another very good looking unit.


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## gibson (Aug 19, 2011)

I really like my Jotul 550.  I can get overnight burns, meaning there are good coals to start with small splits in the morning.  It doesn't throw a lot of radiant heat.  If you have the clearance, an insert that bumps out may be a strong consideration.  Although, I had a power outage, after a big storm, for about 4 hours this past winter.  I took the surround off of the Jotul and it had the downstairs of my house at 72*.  And I cooked a mean pot roast on the top in a dutch oven.

Just some things to consider.  I do not regret buying Jotul.  It is an efficient, easy to operate heater.  And my wife thinks it looks nice!


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## joefrompa (Aug 19, 2011)

Despite these gentleman, I would say that you shouldn't expect an insert to pump out much heat without the fan. I may be biased, but that's my stance 

In a power outage, I can run my blower fan off an extension cord plugged into a serious inverter I have which will run off my car. It's no generator, but it will run the blower fan which will provide substantive heat.


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## begreen (Aug 19, 2011)

It depends on the design and installation. Some inserts are designed to convect reasonably well with out the fan. And some inserts allow one to vary the extension of the insert out onto the hearth. Conversely, the more flush the insert, the more important the blower becomes.


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## orionrogue (Aug 19, 2011)

joefrompa said:
			
		

> Despite these gentleman, I would say that you shouldn't expect an insert to pump out much heat without the fan. I may be biased, but that's my stance
> 
> In a power outage, I can run my blower fan off an extension cord plugged into a serious inverter I have which will run off my car. It's no generator, but it will run the blower fan which will provide substantive heat.



wrt a power outage situation, you could probably run the fan on a battery backup setup used for sump pumps if you were concerned.  I doubt that the blower would use so much that you couldn't get several hours of useful fan use from a deep cycle battery.


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## begreen (Aug 19, 2011)

That will work for short outages. Here we measure the seriousness of the outage in days. There have been 4 of them >5 days in the past 10 years.


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## joefrompa (Aug 19, 2011)

My inlaws ran their jotul fan for over 12 hours off their car without starting it (Subaru Outback, normal 2.5 liter model). Battery died at that point. 

I never thought of it, but I could see having a spare optima/deep cycle battery for just that type of purpose. Relatively inexpensive source of deep power supplies for low amp applications.

Though to your point, a small generator is probably a better option at that point...

Anyway....hrmph. I might have to go buy a small generator now.


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## begreen (Aug 19, 2011)

That was our plan while we had the pellet insert. Eventually, I tore out the entire fireplace and installed a relocated, stainless stove flue. Now with a bigger, freestanding stove we can go all winter if we had to heating only with the stove.


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## madison (Aug 20, 2011)

CTJotul said:
			
		

> Our home is 2,700 square foot with a center fireplace, which I have read on this site to be a good thing for heating with an insert.



If your home is 2700 ft2, I would look at the next size larger stoves in each of you vendors on your spreadsheet and see if those units would fit in your existing fireplace...


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## par0thead151 (Aug 21, 2011)

environ venice 1700
look into it. their quite nice


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## par0thead151 (Aug 21, 2011)

madison said:
			
		

> CTJotul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i have just over 3000 SQ ft, and i have the enviro venice 1700. it can heat the house till around 20 ferenheit outside.


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## fmelani (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks for all the great input... speaking of power outages, we are now on day 2 here in CT.  A generator (which I don't have) is an absolute must along with the a transfer switch!

My main goal of the Insert is to really only heat the first floor from a supplemental perspective. Our last will be off to college soon so the second floor will be unoccupied (we think) and the master bedroom is on the main floor.

The more we look the more the wife likes the Jotul....


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