# Heat Pump Water Heaters



## laynes69 (Feb 25, 2021)

A couple of years ago, we had an 80 gallon electric water heater. When the heater went bad, I had to purchase a new water heater. At the time because we had to, I could only purchase a 50 gallon water heater. We have 5 in our family, my wife and I and a 20 and 17 year old boys and a 10 year old girl. Also a year and a half after the purchase of the 50 gallon heater we added a second full bathroom with a large soaking tub. 

My wife takes a hot bath every night that just about drains the hot water and my daughter takes a bath almost everyday in the evening.  My sons and I take hot showers daily.  Our electric bill has been approaching 230.00 a month and wont stop climbing. Our LP furnace is off, we have a gas dryer and a gas stove. My sons have high end computers, there are alot of electronics and we have 2 outdoor security lights (25 a month). In the summertime we run a dehumidifier 24/7 in the basement, however I've airsealed the basement and am working on stopping most of the moisture. Our water heater is currently set at 150 degrees to allow to fill the tub upstairs. 

We are looking at getting an 80 gallon heat pump water heater. Not only to produce more hot water, but to dehumidify the basement and eliminate the dehumidifier. What I am wondering is if anyone has any real life data on operating costs and savings? There's currently a 300 tax rebate, 150 dollar Co-OP rebate and through Mendards a 216 dollar rebate.


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## GENECOP (Feb 25, 2021)

I run the Nyle Geyser year round for domestic kitchen faucets, washing machines, etc...for baths and showers, three bathrooms run off an on demand system, no storage, never runs out..


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## andym (Feb 25, 2021)

A HPWH will definitely help on the humidity part. From what I've read, my understanding is that they don't have quite as good of recovery rate (on heat pump only mode). I'm sure you would still be saving money on electric tho. Filling a large tub 2x daily is a lot of Btus.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 25, 2021)

I have been monitoring my electric bill the last 14 months or so since installing our Richmond 50 gallon HPWH...looks like we are averaging $15/mo less...this is with an electric rate of $0.118/kWh (that's taxes, surcharges, everything included) and 4 of us here, 2 adults and 2 kids under 10....doesn't sound like we use as much hot water as you guys though...so far we have only had 2 times where we just started to run out...and IIRC that was after 4 bath/showers in about 3-4 hours (and HPWH set on HP only mode) my wife likes it hot, and she was the last to go...if it had been me I probably wouldn't have had a problem since I only do warm showers.
FYI, Menards only charges $70 for a 10 year warranty extension on those...that's parts and labor IIRC...I don't usually buy extended warranties, but this one seemed like a fair price for what it was.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Feb 25, 2021)

I have a Rheem 50 gallon for 4 people. It comes with an app where you can vary the temp and heating mode on a schedule. I have it heat up to 130F during the day (while power comes from my solar panels) using the heat pump only. This to give a bump for the high demand time. During the evening, when most people shower I run in high demand mode but at 120F and then back to heat pump mode at night at 120F.

Without the solar I would pay about $10 a month.


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## laynes69 (Feb 25, 2021)

It feels like we are using more electricity than with our old 80 gallon heater. Our water is ph neutral and we have very good water with a softener. After 2 years I removed one of our elements and they had no buildup and nothing in the base of the tank. 

It seems like because the heater is soo small, it's always trying to heat the water therefore having a constant operation of the elements. Having well water, the water is very cold going into the tank. 

We are close to 13 cents a kwh with fees and taxes. Our last bill we used 1711 KWH.  I have done everything, replaced an old deep well jet pump with a submersible pump, new water heater 2 years ago, new tv, new energy efficient standup freezer. We have a pool that runs 8 hours a day in the summer and have a dehumidifier that also runs in summer. But take out those 2 in the winter and we still are the same. 

I cannot understand where our usage is coming from. Our woodfurnace runs 24/7 and that could be some but I know people with an all electric home and their bills are much lower. I'm trying to stop the bleeding and I'm curious if the water heater is the culprit but I've also heard of phantom loads.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 25, 2021)

I'd start investigating... get a clamp on ammeter and start shutting off breakers one by one...see if the load drop makes sense for that circuit...if not, start chasing down the culprit. 
The gadget geek in me would love to  have one of those power monitor systems, but our bill is not high ($60 spring/fall, $80 winter, $90-100 summer)


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## laynes69 (Feb 25, 2021)

I've thought about it. I do know there are breakers that show some heat with the thermal cam, which I can start there.


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## DBoon (Feb 25, 2021)

Just doing some simple math - if you use 100 gallons of hot water daily (not unrealistic based on what you described as your loads) and have 50 degree inlet water heated to 140 degrees, that is a 90 deg differential x 100 gallons x 8 lbs/gallon = 72,000 BTU/day or 21 kWh/day or 630 kWh/month. At $0.13/kWh, that is $2.73/day or $81.90/month.

Roughly speaking, a HPWH would save you about 2/3 of that.


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## Solarguy3500 (Feb 25, 2021)

My guess is you're right, and the culprit is the water heater. I have an electric water heater too and I knew it was a big part of my energy usage, but until I installed a consumption monitoring device on my breaker panel last fall, I didn't realize quite how much energy the water heater used.

I got the Energy Curb monitor which gives you CTs (current transformers) for the mains, as well as enough CTs to monitor several individual circuits too. It was pretty eye opening to see the actual usage numbers on the water heater. Curb sends you an email each week with your weekly energy usage report:


I had 3 solar hot water collectors installed on my roof at the beginning of winter, but they haven't been doing much lately since they are covered with snow. It will be very interesting to see the effect on the electric usage as we get into spring and summer and the SHW starts producing more.

I also had a HPWH at my previous house and loved it. It was a State, pretty sure it was 60 gallon and with a family of 5 there were only a few times when everyone in the house took a bath or shower on the same day that it would start to get a little cool when running in HP only mode. But, remember, you can always put it in hybrid mode and then if it needs the elements, they will kick in when the HP can't keep up.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 25, 2021)

Are those high end computers turned off at night? Do they spend a lot of time gaming or other intensive loads?

I built my brother a high end PC for christmas for doing CFD in University. AMD Threadripper CPU, liquid cooled, graphics, etc. That thing pulls 150 watts just at idle, and easily pulls 400 watts under load, and spikes over 500 watts. He used to joke that he could shut off the baseboard heaters in his apartment and use the computer for heat when running simulations for days at a time.

I'd be looking hard at those PC's first, new graphics cards can pull up to 320 watts alone, never mind the rest of the PC. Make sure they get shut off when not it use. In summer this issue is compounded, because the AC has that much more heat to pull from the house, using yet more electricity.


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## laynes69 (Feb 26, 2021)

They do game alot and I know the power supplies are over 1000 watts. Their video cards alone have 3 fans on aluminum heatsinks. They tell me they put them to sleep and they use no energy but I suspect otherwise.


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## maple1 (Feb 26, 2021)

We see a noticeable difference in our power bill in the summer when our 2 boys are home from school and gaming a lot.


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## maple1 (Feb 26, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> They do game alot and I know the power supplies are over 1000 watts. Their video cards alone have 3 fans on aluminum heatsinks. They tell me they put them to sleep and they use no energy but I suspect otherwise.



That's like $6/day right there.


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## laynes69 (Feb 26, 2021)

I'm going to have to get some sort of monitoring tool. I had 2 breakers that were warmer than the others according to the thermal cam. They very well could be from their rooms. I'll have to do some investigating and try to figure out how to curb some usage. It's not that I cannot afford it but I hate throwing away money.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 26, 2021)

You can get a half decent clamp on ammeter for under $50...unfortunately its almost impossible to find meters made in the USA anymore....I just ordered a Klein multimeter for work that was supposedly USA made...nope, chyna. (Amazon lied to me)
For plug in loads, the Kill-A-Watt works very well!
The last I checked a whole house monitor like SolarGuy mentioned was $2-300...sure are slick though...I suppose it would pay for itself eventually if it helped you to go all "electric bill nazi"  easier


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## EbS-P (Feb 26, 2021)

We have an 80 gallon Bradford white HPWH. We are a family of 6. 4 kids under 10.    My utility company says I can save 260$ a year. I guessed we could save 20-30$ a month.  It’s kind of like heating the water with wood in the winter.  We have a finished basement and it makes the basement almost too cold in the winter.  I got the overpriced 8” ducting kit.  It’s allowed me to intake near the ceiling and put the cold exhaust down on the floor.  Better efficiency in the winter and better dehumidifier in the summer.  It’s taken the place of one dehumidifier.  It’s about like running a 4000-6000 btu ac unit 4-6 hours a day so it does impact heat/cooling demand.
In a perfect setup I would exhaust to upstairs.  I would have to run duct through my crawlspace  which I haven’t talked yet.  If you basement is dusty  i recommend a washable pre filter as the one emits units have is just a lint filter.  Cleaning the coils on mine does not look simple 

Evan


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## sloeffle (Feb 26, 2021)

A number of years ago I was looking at ways to reduce my electric bill. I bought a Efergy and put it on all of the 240V circuits in my panel. When three of us were here it was costing us roughly $50 a month ( .16kWh all in  ) to make hot water with standard electric hot water heater. I bought a AO Smith HPHW and dropped that cost down to about $5 - $10 a month depending on the time of the year. I figured my ROI was about 2 years. The only competitor at that time was GE and the reviews on the their HPHW's were horrid.

If I was to buy one today I'd get the Richmond from Menards. It's quieter than the AO Smith, has a higher COP, and you can get connect it to your smartphone. It looks like Menards sells two different 80 gallon models. They sell the 10E80-HP530 ( 2k ) and the 10E80-HP515 ( 1.6k ). The more expense unit has a higher COP than the other unit. The more expensive unit also has a better first hour rating, and a higher recovery rate which might be important for a situation like yours. According to their numbers you'd save $44 a year with the more expensive unit. If the unit lasts more than 9 years, you've got your money back. But with your usage, I'd bet your ROI will be less than 9 years.

EDIT: After looking some more, Menards sells a version of the 10E80-HP530 without leakguard for 1.6k. It looks like the 2k unit has leakguard protection on it.


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## laynes69 (Feb 26, 2021)

Our water heater is about 3 feet away from our woodfurnace. In the winter it would be great because of the extra heat from the flue and furnace. With that said it sounds like we would save a ton in the winter. Of course we use the most hot water in the Winter. The model 10E80-HP530 is the one I am looking at as long as it will fit in the basement.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 26, 2021)

sloeffle said:


> According to their numbers you'd save $44 a year with the more expensive unit. If the unit lasts more than 9 years, you've got your money back. But with your usage, I'd bet your ROI will be less than 9 years.


$44 per year? Its gotta be higher than that...


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## Brian26 (Feb 26, 2021)

Keep in mind the yellow energy guide sticker on HPWH's is for the unit running in hybrid mode and still using the elements. I think I read they all default to that mode when first turned on so the sticker is based on that. When I monitored mine for a year it was costing like a fraction of what the sticker said when running in heat pump only mode. I think it was using about $7-10 a month in electricity. 

Also, my 2nd generation Geospring just hit 8 years running nonstop in heat pump only mode with no issues. It has been rock solid reliable.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 26, 2021)

FYI, Menards puts those units on sale with rebate _also_ once or twice a year...usually in the summer...might save you another $150-200.
Example: The 50 gall unit that I have is $1156 now...I got mine with sale and rebate for $950(ish) plus the $70 I paid for the extra 10 yr. warranty.


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## sloeffle (Feb 26, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> $44 per year? Its gotta be higher than that...


Between the two 80 gallon models that Richmond offers. One has a COP of 3.7 and other unit has a COP of 4.0.



			https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/RHEEM001/Prod_Tech_Spec/T-250-PlusRev1Gen5EncoreHybrid_0603.pdf


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## sloeffle (Feb 26, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> Also, my 2nd generation Geospring just hit 8 years running nonstop in heat pump only mode with no issues. It has been rock solid reliable.


Was it the 1st generation Geospring's that had all kinds of issues ? I'm on my second AO Smith HPHW, the compressor died on the first one and AO Smith gave me a new one for free under warranty.


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## begreen (Feb 26, 2021)

I'd like to put one in, but our pit basement has no drain. It makes me nervous to rely on a condensate pump down there, year after year.


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## EbS-P (Feb 26, 2021)

begreen said:


> I'd like to put one in, but our pit basement has no drain. It makes me nervous to rely on a condensate pump down there, year after year.


We have an up flushing bathroom in the basement that the condensate is drained to .  In 10 years we have only had the pump that was connected to the kitchen/washing machine fail due to a bad micro switch.  Kitchen was removed and the other pump replaced (it was still working) it was 21 years old.  I’ve gotten the 9v battery powered moister alarms all over the house since our previous water heater developed a slow leak.   They are another failure point for sure. I’m considering a mini split for the basement and it will need a condensate pump. That’s not factoring into my decision to install or not. Evan


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## laynes69 (Feb 26, 2021)

So question of the day? Currently I have our heater at 150. When it was 120 we would quickly run out while trying to fill the soaking tub. The hotter water allowed for more then tempered to a comfortable level. If the 80 gallon tank holds more water, could I keep it at let's say 120 and it would use less energy and keep up with the tub?


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## EbS-P (Feb 26, 2021)

Our 80 gallon is set to 125. Only time we ran out was after the dishwasher ran, 1 soaker tub then 2 kids tubs.    I’m not sure the soaker was super full might have been some sink dishes too.  If you are you are worried about it you could use old 80 gallon as storage tank.  But it would need electric and a second circuit.  Probably overkill.  Cant buy 80 gallon resistive WH now.  You have 80% more capacity and really only running the tank temp (150) gives  30 degrees witch assuming 60 cold water is (to make math easy) only 50% higher so my fuzzy math says 80 is more than 50. Go for it


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## brenndatomu (Feb 26, 2021)

If you have the room, you could have the HPWH "preheat" the water going into your existing tank...then if the hot water in the HPWH is depleted, along with the 80 gall electric heater too, the electric heater would kick on as "backup"...that way the HPWH could be left on HP only for highest efficiency. As far as lowering the temperature...obviously you will have higher standby losses at 150* vs 120*...but I guess having 2 tanks would mean the same thing...unless you add aftermarket water heater blanket(s) on them maybe.
Or, you could leave the power off to your existing WH, then have it plumbed up so the water will thermosiphon between the HPWH and your existing one...HPWH heats it all, but you have 160 gallons hot and ready to go. 
Oh, and you could maybe back off to the 50 gallon HPWH in this scenario too? I think they recover the same GPH...at least in HP only mode, if not in all modes.


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## laynes69 (Feb 26, 2021)

I haven't thought of two heaters, but we try to spread out the usage if possible. I guess I try a larger unit and see where it goes.  I ordered a clamp on ammeter that will be here tomorrow, so I will be doing some investigating.


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## Solarguy3500 (Feb 26, 2021)

Sounds like no matter which way you go, you could benefit from solar PV. Might be worth talking to a reputable installer in your area.


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## CaptSpiff (Feb 27, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> If you have the room, you could have the HPWH "preheat" the water going into your existing tank..


I did that for a friend. It's working great. 
She had a failed 80 gallon electric replaced with a 50 a few years back. I had bumped up the temp setting twice because she was running out of hot water, but I didn't like the fact that the water was scalding my hands.  She didn't mind.
Then she came across a HPWH rebate offer that made it almost free. I installed it in series, as a pre-heater to the perfectly good 50. Then I lowered the setting on the 50 to normal and wrapped an insulation blanket around it.
The HPWH does the heavy work in HP only, and delivers hot water to the 50, which hardly comes on at all.
Now I don't burn my hands and the dishwasher still does a great job despite the water temp being 15 degrees less.


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## laynes69 (Feb 27, 2021)

CaptSpiff said:


> I did that for a friend. It's working great.
> She had a failed 80 gallon electric replaced with a 50 a few years back. I had bumped up the temp setting twice because she was running out of hot water, but I didn't like the fact that the water was scalding my hands.  She didn't mind.
> Then she came across a HPWH rebate offer that made it almost free. I installed it in series, as a pre-heater to the perfectly good 50. Then I lowered the setting on the 50 to normal and wrapped an insulation blanket around it.
> The HPWH does the heavy work in HP only, and delivers hot water to the 50, which hardly comes on at all.
> Now I don't burn my hands and the dishwasher still does a great job despite the water temp being 15 degrees less.


Hmmmm......How would that work usage wise? I take that the preheating would allow for the 50 gallon to not come on often, but to allow a much higher hot water capacity.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 27, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> Hmmmm......How would that work usage wise? I take that the preheating would allow for the 50 gallon to not come on often, but to allow a much higher hot water capacity.


Correct...basically, you are building a 130 gallon HPWH...the electric could be left on to the existing heater, or turned completely off if you find it's never needs to kick on.


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## jetsam (Feb 27, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> Correct...basically, you are building a 130 gallon HPWH...the electric could be left on to the existing heater, or turned completely off if you find it's never needs to kick on.



It will still need to heat when nobody is using hot water, or else nothing is maintaining the setpoint against heat losses in the second tank.  The second tank wouldn't need to heat much if the first tank was set to a higher setpoint and somebody used hot water every so often.  (Super Store style dhw storage units deal with this via circulator pump.)  And you are doubling the tank heat losses by having two tanks, but if the second tank is well insulated, that shouldn't be a massive hit.  In terms of the electric bill I think you'd be money ahead to turn off the resistive unit and have a circulator pump run water back to the heat pump unit, but you are adding a lot of plumbing and a pump to your system (and probably incurring significant line losses too).

Unrelated, I ran a 50 gallon Rheem heat pump water heater in "HEAT PUMP ONLY" mode for a few months last year, and it does take a long time time get back up to temp when it's not allowed to use its resistive coils.  We were running out of hot water once in a while with just 2 people.  No issues since I changed it to go to eco mode ahead of our showers (but it uses a LOT more power now).


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## brenndatomu (Feb 27, 2021)

If it's set up right, the HPWH should heat the second tank via thermosiphoning, even during no usage times...I'd think most of the extra heat loss from having two tanks could be stopped by super insulating the tanks, especially the second tank.


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## sloeffle (Feb 28, 2021)

Solarguy3500 said:


> Sounds like no matter which way you go, you could benefit from solar PV. Might be worth talking to a reputable installer in your area.


Not to go too far off topic. 

I think we all can agree that we should get more our electricity from renewables. From the OP's perspective wouldn't it make more financial sense to conserve electric ( HPHW, turn computers off, etc ) vs spending an exorbitant amount of money on a solar system ? 

Ohio has some of the worst incentives in the nation when it comes to installing solar. I priced out a solar system a number of years ago and the pay back was about 20 years. I chose to lease some solar panels at a fixed kWh hour rate for the next 15 years from my electric co-op vs buying.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 28, 2021)

sloeffle said:


> Not to go too far off topic.
> 
> I think we all can agree that we should get more our electricity from renewables. From the OP's perspective wouldn't it make more financial sense to conserve electric ( HPHW, turn computers off, etc ) vs spending an exorbitant amount of money on a solar system ?
> 
> Ohio has some of the worst incentives in the nation when it comes to installing solar. I priced out a solar system a number of years ago and the pay back was about 20 years. I chose to lease some solar panels at a fixed kWh hour rate for the next 15 years from my electric co-op vs buying.



Exactly this. The general rule I keep hearing is 5:1. For every dollar invested in reducing  electricity consumption, you save $5 on the capital cost of a solar PV system.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 28, 2021)

CaptSpiff said:


> I did that for a friend. It's working great.
> She had a failed 80 gallon electric replaced with a 50 a few years back. I had bumped up the temp setting twice because she was running out of hot water, but I didn't like the fact that the water was scalding my hands.  She didn't mind.
> Then she came across a HPWH rebate offer that made it almost free. I installed it in series, as a pre-heater to the perfectly good 50. Then I lowered the setting on the 50 to normal and wrapped an insulation blanket around it.
> The HPWH does the heavy work in HP only, and delivers hot water to the 50, which hardly comes on at all.
> Now I don't burn my hands and the dishwasher still does a great job despite the water temp being 15 degrees less.


Why didnt you just turn up the water heater and install a mixing valve? Lots of standby by heat loss with 2 WH.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 28, 2021)

What's the current cost situation on propane vs. electric?  Nobody's mentioned that, and you have a propane tank.
Are those new-fangled instant on gas water heaters any good?  I would think tub-filling would be a good application for it.

Nobody's mentioned the noise of the hp water heaters-they can run for a long time.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 28, 2021)

velvetfoot said:


> What's the current cost situation on propane vs. electric?  Nobody's mentioned that, and you have a propane tank.
> Are those new-fangled instant on gas water heaters any good?  I would think tub-filling would be a good application for it.
> 
> Nobody's mentioned the noise of the hp water heaters-they can run for a long time.



I've got an on-demand hot water heater, fueled by natural gas though. Mine is a Navien NPE-240A, 200,000BTU model, with built in recirculator.

Pro's:

Efficient
Small footprint
Never run out of hot water
Smart controller that ensures the lines are full of hot water at common use times, ie morning showers.
No steel tank to rust out.

Con's:

With an input temp just above freezing, and an output of 125F 4gal/min is all it puts out. Which I've found to be slow compared to tank style water heaters I've used for uses like, filling washing machine and bathtubs.
They need both gas and electric to function. Where with a tank style you still have hot water is left in the tank in the event of an outage.
Cost, mine was just over $4k, 3 times that of a traditional tank water heater.
Maintenance, the heat exchanger does need to be flushed with acid periodically to remove scale, this interval varies greatly with water quality.
Noise. The blower for the burner on mine does make some noise, especially if mounted to a wall and transmitted through the house, not a lot and this can be minimized with rubber isolators.


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## begreen (Feb 28, 2021)

velvetfoot said:


> Nobody's mentioned the noise of the hp water heaters-they can run for a long time.


The sound is reported to be about 45db, so fairly quiet and about the level of some wood stove fans.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 28, 2021)

velvetfoot said:


> Nobody's mentioned the noise of the hp water heaters


The Richmond HPWH is very quiet...only 49 dBA...really a non issue unless you are trying to watch TV right beside it...


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## Solarguy3500 (Feb 28, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Exactly this. The general rule I keep hearing is 5:1. For every dollar invested in reducing  electricity consumption, you save $5 on the capital cost of a solar PV system.



That's a good point. I was making the assumption that the OP would exhaust all efficiency measures first, and then if the load is still high, it might be worth looking into solar. I should have qualified that in my post, and not made the assumption. I can't figure out how to edit my post now, or I would add something to that effect.

It is absolutely true that the cheapest energy is the energy you don't use, and one should always do efficiency measures before solar.


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## andym (Feb 28, 2021)

I was just reading the technical data sheet on the Richmond HPWH from Menards. What are your thoughts on the ducted options? Is there ever a time you would want to intake or exhaust air from/to the attic? How about connecting the intake to a wood furnace? Just rambling here....


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## maple1 (Feb 28, 2021)

andym said:


> I was just reading the technical data sheet on the Richmond HPWH from Menards. What are your thoughts on the ducted options? Is there ever a time you would want to intake or exhaust air from/to the attic? How about connecting the intake to a wood furnace? Just rambling here....



I have thought that it might be beneficial to intake air from behind/under the fridge area. Ours always seems to be pretty warm back there. That's assuming water heater would be a level below the fridge and not far removed from it. Pretty sure I wouldn't hook it to a heat source, but you could maybe draw from the general area. And maybe pipe the exhaust to a spot you might want some slight chilling in the summer.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 28, 2021)

maple1 said:


> I have thought that it might be beneficial to intake air from behind/under the fridge area. Ours always seems to be pretty warm back there. That's assuming water heater would be a level below the fridge and not far removed from it.


Dont bother, the HPWH can work down into the 40s efficiently.  I have mine 3 ft from my furnace boiler so its usually high 70s there. The heat coming off your fridge is minimal.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 28, 2021)

maple1 said:


> I have thought that it might be beneficial to intake air from behind/under the fridge area. Ours always seems to be pretty warm back there. That's assuming water heater would be a level below the fridge and not far removed from it. Pretty sure I wouldn't hook it to a heat source, but you could maybe draw from the general area. And maybe pipe the exhaust to a spot you might want some slight chilling in the summer.


I wondered before if anybody offers a fridge/water heater combo...heat from the fridge goes into the water, cool from the water goes into the fridge...I'd think it could be done with 1 compressor unit too...would just need a line set between the 2 units...


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## laynes69 (Feb 28, 2021)

It just so happens that our water heater is directly below our refrigerator, that doesn't seem like a bad idea. My oldest son brought home kill-o-watt meter and at a maximum output on his PC, it drew 365 watts. When he put it in sleep mode, it was 3 watts....so that's not too bad. I have a clamp ammeter and I'm currently investigating some of the usage, however I still suspect the water heater. I have to find the tape measure to see if I can house the 80 gallon hpwh, but I think I'll just have the room. It's talking the wife into spending the money, however I'm going to keep my eye out on a sale or just bite. Either way I'll save a significant amount on the electric bill.


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## Rob711 (Feb 28, 2021)

How would you set up two heaters so that one would heat the other via thermosiphon.  One of my “yeah I should do that” ideas is getting a 80 gallon HPWH.  This is the first full year with solar and it looks like I produce almost double what we use, my issue, one of many, i proactively replaced the 18 yr 50 gallon old natural gas unit about a month before we decided to get solar.  
  I’ve talked about this here before and I felt the consensus was to ditch the gas one all together and just use a 80 gallon HPWH.  My thoughts were to plumb gas heater first, turned off, feeding into the HPWH.  It would make my mechanical room in the yet to be finished basement look odd. Against the wall in corner gas heater, then gas boiler for heat, then HPWH. I suspect my need for hot water will rise, 3 Girls from age 7-11 and wife.  
  Also thought in power outage I could still run house off my little 2200 Honda generator and still have hot water. I’m now realizing you’d have to blow through 80gallons before you got hot water if the power was out.  Unless....I add a bunch of valves so I can bypass each.  Idk.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 28, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> I'm going to keep my eye out on a sale or just bite.


Keep in mind, Menards generally has at least one sale per year on those that is better than all the rest...save an additional $200 or so...usually somewheres in the July/August range IIRC...


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## brenndatomu (Feb 28, 2021)

Rob711 said:


> How would you set up two heaters so that one would heat the other via thermosiphon


Well, every install would probably be a little different I'm sure...and it depends somewhat on where the water connections are on the tanks you are using...but the basics are that hot water will rise and cold water will fall...so you plumb it so that can happen...might need to raise one of the tanks up some to give enough rise/fall to the plumbing to make it work well...notice the pipe connections are on the side of the Richmond HPWH, and kinda low, so that helps...might need to use the drain line connector of the storage tank to tee into the cold water inlet of the HPWH(?)...if you do an internet search for water heater thermosiphon storage, something along those lines, there's tons of info/ideas out there
Edit, made a crude drawing...no laughing...this is the idea...might need to tweak things a bit, like add a check valve on the cold water return to the HPWH, stuff like that, etc.


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## EbS-P (Feb 28, 2021)

andym said:


> I was just reading the technical data sheet on the Richmond HPWH from Menards. What are your thoughts on the ducted options? Is there ever a time you would want to intake or exhaust air from/to the attic? How about connecting the intake to a wood furnace? Just rambling here....


I did some thinking about the most efficient way to duct. My conclusion was that if you were interested in the dehumidifying intake and exhaust must be in from/ out to your conditioned space.  You may be able to to run I a. It more efficiency during the summer by intaking warm outside air but you exhaust it inside you are pressuring the conditioned space and forcing your cold air out.  If you reverse that during to winter you will need to make up air from outside and it most of the time would be colder than the exhaust temp.  I am considering intake from the the conditioned basement and exhaust it up stairs.   my basement is  always colder than the main floor so this would help the basement stay warmer in the winter (some) and the main floor be cooler in the summer.  As a related point here is an infrared picture of my heater closet. Intake is outside the closet at the ceiling of the room and exhaust is just ducted pointed to the floor of the closet with louvered doors.  So you can see the thermal gradient ( no scale here but I’m guessing is about 5-7 degrees different from top of closet to the bottom). 
If you have an  open basement door would not bother ducting unless you have a warm room upstairs in the summer.  If you are in a smaller space ( mine said rooms less that 700 cubic ft)  that’s when you needed to utilize  the ducts


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## brenndatomu (Feb 28, 2021)

I haven't messed around with ducting my HPWH out of the room, yet...just have an extension on the intake to pull the warmest air off the ceiling, and an elbow on the exhaust port to point it at the wood furnace 10-12' away...it gets quite the convective loop going in the winter! I have a piece of paper hanging from the door frame between the two units and it will be laying at close to a 45* angle when things are rolling good.
I did notice in the literature that these new Richmonds are a bit different than mine...you have to buy their adapter to hook ducts up now...mine has a little flange that 8" duct pipe slides right onto...


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 1, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> I wondered before if anybody offers a fridge/water heater combo...heat from the fridge goes into the water, cool from the water goes into the fridge...I'd think it could be done with 1 compressor unit too...would just need a line set between the 2 units...


Sounds like a good idea for small apts  . They already have a combo Stove sink and fridge in one.


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## CaptSpiff (Mar 1, 2021)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Why didnt you just turn up the water heater and install a mixing valve? Lots of standby by heat loss with 2 WH.


That probably would have been easier and resolved the scalding problem at the same time.
I just didn't think of it, and I have no experience with a mixing valve.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 6, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> It just so happens that our water heater is directly below our refrigerator, that doesn't seem like a bad idea. My oldest son brought home kill-o-watt meter and at a maximum output on his PC, it drew 365 watts. When he put it in sleep mode, it was 3 watts....so that's not too bad. I have a clamp ammeter and I'm currently investigating some of the usage, however I still suspect the water heater.


Any new findings?


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## laynes69 (Mar 7, 2021)

Not yet. There's some tight wires in the panel and recently I started removing the old line mortar from the fieldstone foundation and repointing. Every weekend and evening after work. It's been wearing me out.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 7, 2021)

In thinking about this  a bit more, in addition to making sure your well pump is not running  more than it needs to (for one of several possible reasons) I'm sure you are probably on a septic system out there...if you have an aerator motor in the tank, need to make sure that it is not wound up with hair, rags, etc...it happens, and that will make a dent in the ole electric bill...also should check to see if the aerator is on a timer, they often are, and it could fail "on"...although they do often fail "off" too...that causes different problems


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## Highbeam (Mar 7, 2021)

With nightly bath tub soaks by multiple residents and your hard working bones, have you considered a hot tub? They’re awesome. Then a shower to be clean. 

Admittedly the modern spas require a surprisingly small amount of power too but they don’t overload your septic, your water heater, and you might actually save power plus gain immense enjoyment. Bonus, you can actually talk to your family since phones don’t mix with water!


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## laynes69 (Mar 8, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> In thinking about this  a bit more, in addition to making sure your well pump is not running  more than it needs to (for one of several possible reasons) I'm sure you are probably on a septic system out there...if you have an aerator motor in the tank, need to make sure that it is not wound up with hair, rags, etc...it happens, and that will make a dent in the ole electric bill...also should check to see if the aerator is on a timer, they often are, and it could fail "on"...although they do often fail "off" too...that causes different problems


Unfortunately we have an old septic system with no aerator. I suspect here in the future we will need a new system.....yikes! I have thought about the well, however we have a newer poly line and up to about 2 or so years ago upgraded from an old jet pump to a submersible. Going from 20-40 to 50-70 with the well. I upgraded the well system not only due to maintenance but for savings. The old system had a 3/4 hp pump that would run forever to get up to 40 pounds.


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## laynes69 (Mar 8, 2021)

Highbeam said:


> With nightly bath tub soaks by multiple residents and your hard working bones, have you considered a hot tub? They’re awesome. Then a shower to be clean.
> 
> Admittedly the modern spas require a surprisingly small amount of power too but they don’t overload your septic, your water heater, and you might actually save power plus gain immense enjoyment. Bonus, you can actually talk to your family since phones don’t mix with water!



Don't go there lol. My wife wants either an extension to the pool deck or the patio on the pool for a hot tub. I've been avoiding the thing like the plague since I mainly take care of the pool. I've heard horror stories with our friends having 150.00 or more in excess with usage from a spa.


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## Highbeam (Mar 8, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> Don't go there lol. My wife wants either an extension to the pool deck or the patio on the pool for a hot tub. I've been avoiding the thing like the plague since I mainly take care of the pool. I've heard horror stories with our friends having 150.00 or more in excess with usage from a spa.



Modern spas are much better. My consumption is of little value for comparison due to climate and lower cost electric but for giggles it’s under 2$ per day in winter. My tub is from 2003 and seriously lacks insulation but has been very dependable and chemicals are super easy. We’re 3 times a week type people.


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## laynes69 (Mar 25, 2021)

I've been working on drying the basement and repointing the old stone foundation on half of our basement. With all the work I've put in, I decided to purchase an 80 gallon heatpump waterheater from Menards. It's a 220 30 amp 80 gallon model. The benefits of dehumidifying the basement and saving money make the purchase worth it. I'm predicted to get the heater by the 17th of April. Once I install the heater I'll update the thread.


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## Rob711 (Mar 26, 2021)

Can I hear any pros or cons to brands. I was all for ao smith but now I’m leaning towards rheem. No menards around here. Home Depot, Lowes and plumbing supply places


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## Solarguy3500 (Mar 26, 2021)

Rob711 said:


> Can I hear any pros or cons to brands. I was all for ao smith but now I’m leaning towards rheem. No menards around here. Home Depot, Lowes and plumbing supply places



I had a State HPWH in my old house. No problems with it in the time I owned it.  The installer told me they had previously used Steibel Eltron units but started seeing a high failure rate a few years back and switched to the State brand.


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## sloeffle (Mar 27, 2021)

Rob711 said:


> Can I hear any pros or cons to brands. I was all for ao smith but now I’m leaning towards rheem. No menards around here. Home Depot, Lowes and plumbing supply places


AOSmith and State are the same company. I was impressed that AOSmith actually honored their warranty, so that says something about them as a company. I bought my unit from Ferguson plumbing supply. Personally, I’d buy the unit with the highest COP, the least amount of noise for the least amount of money. I’d say they all are pretty much the same internally.


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## Rob711 (Mar 27, 2021)

Thanks fellas, the plumbing supply place told me the same about state owning ao smith.  Just based off the reviews, ao Smith support seems lacking when there is a problem.  I’ve read them is quieter compared to ao, also no WiFi. I’ll obsess over this a few more weeks.


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## EbS-P (Mar 27, 2021)

I ended up with an 80 gallon Bradford white HPWH. Been running 12 months only complaint it the filter seems inadequate but that’s easy to address. I’m happy with it. 

Evan


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## sloeffle (Mar 27, 2021)

Rob711 said:


> Thanks fellas, the plumbing supply place told me the same about state owning ao smith.  Just based off the reviews, ao Smith support seems lacking when there is a problem.  I’ve read them is quieter compared to ao, also no WiFi. I’ll obsess over this a few more weeks.


I’d agree that their support was lacking until I got someone on the phone that had a clue. Once I got the correct person on the phone, the support was stellar. Getting the replacement HPHW was a very seamless process too.

IMHO - it’s no different than buying a car. All of the manufacturers suck, you just need to figure out which one sucks less.


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## laynes69 (Apr 2, 2021)

So I'll be installing the new water heater this weekend. Since the joists are basically touching the top of the unit, I'll need to restructure to give proper clearances (minimum). What I am wondering about is currently I have a peak load management system on the current heater and I'm unsure if those types of systems are compatible. I feel I should remove the peak buster since the new unit is much more efficient. Either way I'm excited and can't wait to see the results.


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## EbS-P (Apr 2, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> So I'll be installing the new water heater this weekend. Since the joists are basically touching the top of the unit, I'll need to restructure to give proper clearances (minimum). What I am wondering about is currently I have a peak load management system on the current heater and I'm unsure if those types of systems are compatible. I feel I should remove the peak buster since the new unit is much more efficient. Either way I'm excited and can't wait to see the results.



I am assuming the peak load system is managed by your utility company??   I guessing the heatpump uses about 500-700 watts.  Don’t see it being useful.  The power off-on  startup routine on mine runs through a self diagnostic. Takes several minutes to complete. I would prefer not to have routine power disruptions to but it probably would not hurt anything.  

I don’t have full 8’ ceilings but didn’t have a clearance issues but I am wondering how one would change out the anode rod?  Tip it over?  


Evan


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## laynes69 (Apr 2, 2021)

I would think so unless the heater had a flexible anode rod. Says it has a premium magnesium anode with resistor. I did confirm with a friend who works for our Co-op that confirmed the peakbuster is not compatible (which I figured). I read that load management boxes could actually cause the heater to consume more energy if the water temp fell too much and the elements kicked in. With the unit having active monitoring and Wifi I'll get to see how much our hot water costs.


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## semipro (Apr 2, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> I am assuming the peak load system is managed by your utility company??   I guessing the heatpump uses about 500-700 watts.  Don’t see it being useful.  The power off-on  startup routine on mine runs through a self diagnostic. Takes several minutes to complete. I would prefer not to have routine power disruptions to but it probably would not hurt anything.
> 
> I don’t have full 8’ ceilings but didn’t have a clearance issues but I am wondering how one would change out the anode rod?  Tip it over?
> 
> ...


Break/bend the old one as it comes out. 
Install a multi-sectioned one. They look kind of like nunchucks.


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## laynes69 (Apr 3, 2021)

Well it's in! I'll be curious over the next couple months to see what happens.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 3, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> Well it's in! I'll be curious over the next couple months to see what happens.
> 
> View attachment 277446


Nice!
Like the angle of the pic with the Caddy in the background!


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## Rob711 (Apr 3, 2021)

Looks good. Let us know how it works.


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## laynes69 (Apr 3, 2021)

So......my wife came home in a poor mood with warm water for a bath, and the thing is noisy! I have it set at 140 and it will take a day or so for things to level out. The hum however is terrible.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 3, 2021)

That's weird...mine is really quiet


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## maple1 (Apr 4, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> So......my wife came home in a poor mood with warm water for a bath, and the thing is noisy! I have it set at 140 and it will take a day or so for things to level out. The hum however is terrible.



It's the unit itself? Not some weird vibration harmonics thing that is amplifying somehow that a little insulation or something in the right place would fix? Our mini split outside units are on a deck, they made a heck of a noise until a couple of little insulation pad thingies got put in a couple of certain spots.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 4, 2021)

maple1 said:


> It's the unit itself? Not some weird vibration harmonics thing that is amplifying somehow that a little insulation or something in the right place would fix?


That's what I was wondering too...when I walk into the basement from outside and the HPWH is running, (same room) you almost have to walk over closer to it to tell if it's running for sure...not as quiet as a fridge, but close. I'm pretty sure the 80 gallon and the 50 gallon like mine use the same compressor too...just a bigger tank.


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## laynes69 (Apr 4, 2021)

Yes, it's actually quieter in the basement. I've squeezed and followed around the unit and I havent found a single area on the outside that would quiet it. I can't hear it in the kitchen above but the sound radiates upstairs also. It's a humming sound. The fan itself is quiet and the compressor seems to be quiet. 

I also am a little confused with the modes, but I ended up turning it up to 140 in energy saving mode. If the app is correct, I've used around 9 kwh  since yesterday.

I'm considering getting some dynamat to maybe try to reduce the sound.


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> So......my wife came home in a poor mood with warm water for a bath, and the thing is noisy! I have it set at 140 and it will take a day or so for things to level out. The hum however is terrible.


Why no hot water? Our std hw heater is set to 130º and the water is plenty hot.



laynes69 said:


> Well it's in! I'll be curious over the next couple months to see what happens.


Is this a Richmond (Rheem) unit?


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## laynes69 (Apr 4, 2021)

begreen said:


> Why no hot water? Our std hw heater is set to 130º and the water is plenty hot.
> 
> 
> Is this a Richmond (Rheem) unit?


Yeah it's a Richmond unit. Originally I had it set in heatpump mode only and was playing with the settings. It's now set at 140 in energy savings, which I realize uses both the elements and heatpump. Today things seem better so hopefully......

My wife takes scolding baths and we have a deep curved tub which has a capacity of 62 gallons. If it's not hot, she isn't happy!


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2021)

Ah yes, that would explain the slower recovery. You might be able to go heat pump mode in summer if the incoming water is warmer and a cooler shower is more refreshing than a hot bath.
I was thinking maybethe hum is due to vibration being transmitted thru the pipes. It looks like the unit is hard plumbed without any expansion couplings. I wonder if adding them would reduce noise transmitted via the plumbing.


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## laynes69 (Apr 4, 2021)

begreen said:


> Ah yes, that would explain the slower recovery. You might be able to go heat pump mode in summer if the incoming water is warmer and a cooler shower is more refreshing than a hot bath.
> I was thinking maybethe hum is due to vibration being transmitted thru the pipes. It looks like the unit is hard plumbed without any expansion couplings. I wonder if adding them would reduce noise transmitted via the plumbing.


I thought the same thing about the vibrations. It wouldn't cost much to add a couple fittings and do flex lines. I notice that all of the noise comes from the intake side of the unit.


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 4, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> My wife takes scolding baths and we have a deep curved tub which has a capacity of 62 gallons. If it's not hot, she isn't happy!



Sounds like the real problem is the wife!


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## woodgeek (Apr 4, 2021)

140°F is way too hot IMO for a HPWH.  

I've kept mine at 120°F for 8 years now, and its still too hot to shower in (without a little CW added) when it comes out of the tap.

The COP drops hard as the temp rises.  Heating the water from CW to 90-100°F has a super high COP like 5.  Its pushing the last few BTUs into the HW that is so hard.  This is also why we would never use solar or a 'tempering' tank to preheat water into a HPWH... terrible payback.

At higher temps, you will also get more scale and work the compressor harder (higher refrigerant pressure).  I've flushed mine, and I have never seen any sediment come out.


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## laynes69 (Apr 4, 2021)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Sounds like the real problem is the wife!


I won't comment lol! I'm unsure to set to high demand about an hour before she comes home or energy saver (which gives time before her bath). If momma ain't happy, nobody is!


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## JRHAWK9 (Apr 4, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> If momma ain't happy, nobody is!



I hear ya, except being the hard headed person I am I tend to buck that way of thinking more than I probably should.     Guys gotta keep some of his pride and not totally give into all the emoting. 

In fact, we'd still be burning LP if I hadn't "fought like hell" to put a wood furnace in.  Now I get scolded if I don't have a fire going and the house is under 70.  You bet I remind her of that too.


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## begreen (Apr 4, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> I thought the same thing about the vibrations. It wouldn't cost much to add a couple fittings and do flex lines. I notice that all of the noise comes from the intake side of the unit.


If you do go for braided flex connectors, seek out the highest quality possible and hopefully made in the US. I've had a failure with the stainless braided flex supply connectors from the hardware store. It wasn't pretty. Check the PSI rating. Fluidmaster makes some that may be ok. They have a longer warranty and higher pressure rating.


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## EbS-P (Apr 4, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> I thought the same thing about the vibrations. It wouldn't cost much to add a couple fittings and do flex lines. I notice that all of the noise comes from the intake side of the unit.


Look into the ducting kit to purchase or make something your self.  The intake could be then pointed in a better direction and insulated with sound insulation. They even sell duct silencers.


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## laynes69 (Apr 4, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> Look into the ducting kit to purchase or make something your self.  The intake could be then pointed in a better direction and insulated with sound insulation. They even sell duct silencers.


I thought about this. I do need to duct the unit for the exhaust blows on the ductwork. The noise comes from the intake, which I can duct more towards the floor. It will take some thinking, but I noticed it doesnt always run. Unfortunately it has to run when my wife get home lol.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 4, 2021)

I agree with isolating the hard plumbing if you are getting a hum noise upstairs.
We have ours set on heat pump only mode, set at 120*...my wife likes _hot _showers (she adds almost no cold...I can't stand it that hot!) and we have had very little issue with it keeping up....but it sounds like you guys use more hot water than us too, so...


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## velvetfoot (Apr 5, 2021)

5 people in family and a soaking tub, daily, and propane infrastructure exists?  Shoulda gone with propane.


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## EbS-P (Apr 5, 2021)

In hybrid mode my compressor does not run when elements are on.  This is probably the least efficient time of year for the heatpump side. Lowest incoming water temps and lower basement temps make means your compressor is running longer.  I have often thought It would be a good feature to be able to set a time of day when the heat pump would not run.  
Here is my rough estimate of how long it would take to heat up 80 gallons to 140F.    I chose 1800w because the rated COP of the heat pump is probably close to 3 and runs at close to 600 W.  The electric elements may be able to get to temp in half the time. And the quick recharge element could get the top of the tank up to temp even faster.  YMMV.   I’d be putting low flow shower heads and sink aerators throughout the house, and use the dishwasher delay if you have it just to make sure she is always happy 

Evan


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## laynes69 (Apr 5, 2021)

velvetfoot said:


> 5 people in family and a soaking tub, daily, and propane infrastructure exists?  Shoulda gone with propane.


The house had a propane water heater years ago. When the wood furnace was installed, it took place of the water heater. We use a 500 gallon tank of LP about 4 to 5 years before filling. We have a 5 burner stove, furnace and dryer. 

What I don't understand is having a 72 gallon tank showing full capacity and run around 30 gallons before the temperature drops off quite a bit. I'm saving alot of money and if I need to run high demand around bath time, I guess that's what I'll have to do. Our unit does run the compressor and elementa at the same time.


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## Brian26 (Apr 6, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> 140°F is way too hot IMO for a HPWH.
> 
> I've kept mine at 120°F for 8 years now, and its still too hot to shower in (without a little CW added) when it comes out of the tap.
> 
> ...



This is good advice.  I connected my electricity monitor to my GE Geospring and monitored it for a year once. I was surprised how much less it ran turning the temp from 130 to 120. I only run it in heat pump only mode.  

Also, make sure you flush and check your anode rod on your heat pump water heater. My anode rod was completely gone after 5 years.


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## EbS-P (Apr 6, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> The house had a propane water heater years ago. When the wood furnace was installed, it took place of the water heater. We use a 500 gallon tank of LP about 4 to 5 years before filling. We have a 5 burner stove, furnace and dryer.
> 
> What I don't understand is having a 72 gallon tank showing full capacity and run around 30 gallons before the temperature drops off quite a bit. I'm saving alot of money and if I need to run high demand around bath time, I guess that's what I'll have to do. Our unit does run the compressor and elementa at the same time.


That seems suspect only getting half capacity of hot water.  Quick thoughts are it’s not really 140F (easy to check) or the incoming cold water is really mixing and the tank is not staying thermally stratified.  Only thoughts there are, something is not right with your tank internally or just a guess you water pressure is really high and the tub has fast flowing filler so the tank is really getting stirred up.  
 We can fill our large soaker tub up and the water temp doesn’t change.  Run another bath for kids and dishwasher and it starts to cool off fast.  Worth looking into.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 6, 2021)

You can pull up the internal tank temps on the display on this unit...it shows both lower and upper tank temps...


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## laynes69 (Apr 6, 2021)

Our water pressure is 50/70. We have a 100 micron spin down filter with a water softener. I don't know if I can see the element temps with my app.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 6, 2021)

I'm not using the app...you can pull it up on the local display...I would think it would be available on the app though too...


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## laynes69 (Apr 6, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> I'm not using the app...you can pull it up on the local display...I would think it would be available on the app though too...


Really? I'll have to look into it. Last night my wife finally had a nice hot bath. I put the heater on 140 from 6 to 10 pm and drop it down to 120 overnight. On a positive note the basement was 60 degrees (which for a woodburning man is frigid) lol, and the humidity was 43 percent. I was thinking it was too cold in the basement but the warmer weather is coming and the woodfurnace will keep the heater fed in the winter.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 6, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> Really? I'll have to look into it


Well, looks like I may be wrong...your controller looks way different than mine...and what's weird is the manual listed for yours (on Menards site) is dated 2016...I bought mine in 2019 so I'd think you'd have the newer style if they changed them...I'll have to look what the build date and manual print date is on mine...


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## brenndatomu (Apr 6, 2021)

Here's mine...page 21 shows the screen that has the tank temps/etc. on it...


			https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/RHEEM001/Use_And_Care_Manual/HybridManual.pdf


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## laynes69 (Apr 6, 2021)

I checked today and dont have the same options. It going to take some getting used to, but I feel we are saving a ton of money. The nice part is our basement actually feels and smells like a normal basement. I dont think the old dehumidifier was either operating correctly or the improvements I've made have been quite the improvement.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 6, 2021)

I just looked and my manual was printed in 2016 like the current one that is linked to online...obviously they must have different versions of these things...I couldn't find a build date on mine...about 2 years ago would be my guess.


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## Rob711 (Apr 6, 2021)

In my obsession, uh, research, I’ve read that the earlier Rheem units gave more data than the newer ones, upper and lower tank temps etc on the on board display. I’d think it’s still available on the app. The Rheem might be to tall for my basement.  I wish the AO Smith would get a app, although the fact that I want to monitor my hot water heater is also concerning!


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## brenndatomu (Apr 6, 2021)

Rob711 said:


> In my obsession, uh, research, I’ve read that the earlier Rheem units gave more data than the newer ones, upper and lower tank temps etc on the on board display. I’d think it’s still available on the app. The Rheem might be to tall for my basement.  I wish the AO Smith would get a app, although the fact that I want to monitor my hot water heater is also concerning!


Nah...you a just a gauge guy, like me...I can't stand a truck with only a speedo and a gas gauge...I want a full array of gauges...I have my wood furnace all geeked out too...seriously thinking about a monitor for the minivan that plugs in to the OBDII port that allows you to monitor all kinds of live data...trans temp would be one that I'd be real interested in (dang Hondas and their non serviceable trans filter!)
Wanting "gauges" for your HPWH makes complete sense to me!


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## sloeffle (Apr 7, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> Also, make sure you flush and check your anode rod on your heat pump water heater. My anode rod was completely gone after 5 years.


I took the top of my old AO Smith HPHW off when I was having issues with a few years ago. I think I'd need every 1/2 extension I have to get the anode rod out. The sides are screwed onto mine but I'm not sure how much "surgery" I want to do in order to get the anode rod out. I kept my old HPHW ( elements still work ) so when I get some time one day I'll have to mess around and see how hard its going to be to get the anode rod out.


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## EbS-P (Apr 7, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> trans temp would be one that I'd be real interested in (dang Hondas and their non serviceable trans filter!)





sloeffle said:


> I took the top of my old AO Smith HPHW off when I was having issues with a few years ago. I think I'd need every 1/2 extension I have to get the anode rod out. The sides are screwed onto mine but I'm not sure how much "surgery" I want to do in order to get the anode rod out. I kept my old HPHW ( elements still work ) so when I get some time one day I'll have to mess around and see how hard its going to be to get the anode rod out.


my plan is to pay the plumber ask if he will show me how to to change it out for an extra 50$ and tell him to sell me  two rods.  Depending on the frequency and volume of the profanity uttered he may even get to do it again.
Evan


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Apr 10, 2021)

The anode on my heater is below the condenser unit. Rheem says it can not be replaced, though you can find instructions on YouTube on how to check / change it while simultaneously voiding your warranty by systematically digging though the top of the unit. 

In my next life, when I come back as someone more mechanically inclined and with a juris doctorate in patent law, I’m going to invent an anode that is outside the main tank and connects to the drain output so you never have go through a big hassle just to check it.


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## EbS-P (Apr 10, 2021)

I thought mine was serviceable. But I could not remember. It is. Not super difficult.  That really sounds like a poor design but I can say I have never seen anode changed in my life.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 10, 2021)

I just looked mine up...it talks about it having an anode rod, and what its for, but does not mention how to change it, and it does not show on the "available parts" list...grrr...


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## EbS-P (Apr 10, 2021)

brenndatomu said:


> seriously thinking about a monitor for the minivan that plugs in to the OBDII port that allows you to monitor all kinds of live data...trans temp would be one that I'd be real interested


I have one for my Odyssey.  It’s a fun gadget. Trans temp for my 2011 is a non standard output.  Reality is knowing the temp doesn’t really do anything for you.  If you are towing you should have a trans cooler.  And it’s not like I am going  pull over in the middle of the long hill to cool anything off.  I have the 5 speed with 2 overdrive gears so the OD button kicks it down to third.  It’s a crumby design for towing.  Still fun to see all the “gauges”.


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## laynes69 (Apr 10, 2021)

So.....what is the accuracy of the app as far as electric usage?


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## Rob711 (Apr 11, 2021)

So rheem says you cannot change out the anode!!?  Huh.


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## Brian26 (Apr 12, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> I thought mine was serviceable. But I could not remember. It is. Not super difficult.  That really sounds like a poor design but I can say I have never seen anode changed in my life.



That looks like a GE Geospring? On my Geospring the anode rode came right out with a 18 inch 1/2 breaker bar. I think Bradford White bought the Geospring production and still makes them. You can get the anode rod through them.


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## EbS-P (Apr 12, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> That looks like a GE Geospring? On my Geospring the anode rode came right out with a 18 inch 1/2 breaker bar. I think Bradford White bought the Geospring production and still makes them. You can get the anode rod through them.


I think you are correct.  I was pretty sure it had to be a rebranded product but really didn’t investigate.  I wonder if the WiFi smart connector for the geo spring units would work?   Not worth the 70$ to try it out to me.


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## Brian26 (Apr 12, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> I think you are correct.  I was pretty sure it had to be a rebranded product but really didn’t investigate.  I wonder if the WiFi smart connector for the geo spring units would work?   Not worth the 70$ to try it out to me.



I have the GE WiFi controller on mine. I would imagine it would work. Call Bradford White and ask them as the control panel is identical.


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## DBoon (Apr 16, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> 140°F is way too hot IMO for a HPWH.


Yeah, I would agree - the lifetime of the unit is going to go down quite a bit and it will operate more noisily the higher the temperature is. You might want to consider just installing an electric booster heater on the output of the HPWH and setting the HPWH back to 125 degrees or so and get the booster to get it to 140 degrees. 

I understand that it is not an option for you to have less than 140 degree water. I deal with similar issues and have managed to negotiate down to 130 degrees. Possible, but painful (the negotiations, not the temperature).


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## laynes69 (Apr 17, 2021)

DBoon said:


> Yeah, I would agree - the lifetime of the unit is going to go down quite a bit and it will operate more noisily the higher the temperature is. You might want to consider just installing an electric booster heater on the output of the HPWH and setting the HPWH back to 125 degrees or so and get the booster to get it to 140 degrees.
> 
> I understand that it is not an option for you to have less than 140 degree water. I deal with similar issues and have managed to negotiate down to 130 degrees. Possible, but painful (the negotiations, not the temperature).


I've been playing with the settings and we havent ran out of hot water. I have it programmed for 120 overnight (I set it there after my wife bathes) and I take it up in increments from 120 to 125 to 130 then 140. At 140 I am using high demand mode (which is after 6pm) which uses both elements and heat pump. I've been using between 6 and 9 KWH a day per the app. The first day which was a partial day and I had the settings off and I used 18kwh. My basement had stayed cool and dry and I'm happy. It going have another billing cycle or so, but I think the heater was definitely the culprit. Also the sound is no different from 120 degrees to 140 degrees. It's nice because the heater runs very little throughout the day. The 140 is only so my wife has her scalding bath.


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## woodgeek (Apr 18, 2021)

I respect all the monitoring, and will defer to any data you have.  But not clear how much you save by doing the daily adjustment cycle.  My tank holds temp for 3-4 days.

If you are running hybrid/demand mode, I wonder if its running the element to finish, or something.  Hmm.


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## EbS-P (Apr 19, 2021)

I just changed from hybrid to heatpump only mode as the basement is 70 degrees now.  Wish I could see how much (if any) the element used.


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## laynes69 (Apr 22, 2021)

So it's been 19 or so days with the new waterheater. In the time I've used 164 Kwh and around 11 days with the old heater. According to my previous reading on the electric bill, I've used about 1081 kwh this billing cycle. Last billing cycle was 1377 kwh and the year prior was 1590 kwh. I'm excited and I've also noticed as I've been using the woodfurnace, the usage has been lower with the HPWH. That's quite a savings and it will get better next month (that is until the pool starts back up). Also, no more dehumidifier running since the water heater is taking care of the humidity. We currently are in the works of a new heating and cooling system (no ac now) and eventually a new fandangled wood furnace.


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## trx250r87 (Apr 23, 2021)

laynes69 said:


> So it's been 19 or so days with the new waterheater. In the time I've used 164 Kwh and around 11 days with the old heater. According to my previous reading on the electric bill, I've used about 1081 kwh this billing cycle. Last billing cycle was 1377 kwh and the year prior was 1590 kwh. I'm excited and I've also noticed as I've been using the woodfurnace, the usage has been lower with the HPWH. That's quite a savings and it will get better next month (that is until the pool starts back up). Also, no more dehumidifier running since the water heater is taking care of the humidity. We currently are in the works of a new heating and cooling system (no ac now) and eventually a new fandangled wood furnace.



Tell us more about that "new fandangled wood furnace".

Eric


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## laynes69 (Apr 23, 2021)

trx250r87 said:


> Tell us more about that "new fandangled wood furnace".
> 
> Eric


Ahhhh.....just a computer controlled model. The man that came out for the estimate for heating and cooling was shocked about the size of the house but impressed by its comfort. I got the HPWH and a heat commander will be next lol.


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## EbS-P (Jul 26, 2022)

First thread that came up in the search heatpump water heater.  Trying to track down an unusually high electric usage yesterday. See pics. 

Anyway. I’m pretty sure the my heatpump water heater was using resistive heat.  This has happened before. Can’t tell why.  No error codes.  We went on vacation for two weeks.  Got back Sunday morning first demand was last night.  A quick power cycle seems to reset and fix the issue.  

I’m not sure one would notice unless they had the ability to track daily and hourly usage.  Down to the 15 minute interval identified it as a constant load.  

Technology isn’t foolproof.


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## mellow (Jul 26, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> First thread that came up in the search heatpump water heater.  Trying to track down an unusually high electric usage yesterday. See pics.
> 
> Anyway. I’m pretty sure the my heatpump water heater was using resistive heat.  This has happened before. Can’t tell why.  No error codes.  We went on vacation for two weeks.  Got back Sunday morning first demand was last night.  A quick power cycle seems to reset and fix the issue.
> 
> ...



Interesting, what HPWH do you have?  I wonder if you had a brown out or power outage or lightning strike nearby while you were gone?

That is one of the good things about having Sense is I can get an alert if power use goes up and I can go back and look in real time and see which device was using the power (if sense remembers it).


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## Brian26 (Jul 26, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> First thread that came up in the search heatpump water heater.  Trying to track down an unusually high electric usage yesterday. See pics.
> 
> Anyway. I’m pretty sure the my heatpump water heater was using resistive heat.  This has happened before. Can’t tell why.  No error codes.  We went on vacation for two weeks.  Got back Sunday morning first demand was last night.  A quick power cycle seems to reset and fix the issue.
> 
> ...


I remember reading about a few brands that still use the elements no matter what as its built into the software logic.  I think it might have been the Rheem and another brand.  Someone went through the patents and discovered they will still use the elements quite often under certain situations.

What brand and model tank is it? If it's a Rheem that is most likely what's happening.  I'll see if you can find the link I read.


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## EbS-P (Jul 26, 2022)

It’s the Bradfordwhite branded geo spring.


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## Brian26 (Jul 27, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> It’s the Bradfordwhite branded geo spring.


I have the 2nd generation Geospring thats been running in heat pump only mode for 9 years . Are you running it in heat pump only mode?

The Geospring is one of the few hpwh that can run in heat pump only mode and not use the elements. My elements actually disintegrated on my geospring a few years back as I never used them. Even if you disconnect them the Geospring will still run in heat pump only. I have also confirmed with my Emporia vue energy monitor the elements never come on when set to heat pump only mode.

Look into the Emporia vue. Its only $150 and you can monitor 15 circuits with it with 1 second resolution.  You can set it to trigger alerts. I can't tell you how many times my wife has left the oven on and I get an alert.

Here is a screenshot of my geospring on my Emporia. It's set to heat pump only mode and as you can see off the peak monthly demand the elements never came on. I average 1-2 kwhs a day in electricity consumption. Only used an incredible 36.9 kwh so far this month.


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## begreen (Jul 27, 2022)

Is this what Bradford-White calls the AeroTherm today?


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## EbS-P (Jul 27, 2022)

Brian26 said:


> I have the 2nd generation Geospring thats been running in heat pump only mode for 9 years . Are you running it in heat pump only mode?
> 
> The Geospring is one of the few hpwh that can run in heat pump only mode and not use the elements. My elements actually disintegrated on my geospring a few years back as I never used them. Even if you disconnect them the Geospring will still run in heat pump only. I have also confirmed with my Emporia vue energy monitor the elements never come on when set to heat pump only mode.
> 
> ...


I run heatpump only except when it’s really cold.  



begreen said:


> Is this what Bradford-White calls the AeroTherm today?


Yes.   they got the geo spring and re branded it.


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