# 2 sided gas fireplace and gas odor



## Winebrats (Nov 30, 2009)

Hi all.  We are new to the world of Natural Gas.  Just bought a house with it for hot water, stovetop and a fireplace.  The fireplace is a 2 sided fireplace and one of the sides is to the outside.  We had a 2 sided gas insert installed and it looks beautiful.  The installer said to expect a gas smell the first few time we use it until it is "broken in".  I still smell gas.  It's not overwhelming and you faintly notice it when you are inside, but if you go outside and come back in, I think it is very noticable.  Is this normal?  Am I going to be poisoned?  Blow up?

When we use it, we open both sets of doors (glass) and the thing is open to the chimney (flu?).  I've read that the odor is from an odorance (?) of the fuel mixing(??) but I am borderline against using the fireplace because of the odor...any feedback would be appreciated.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 2, 2009)

Its not an "insert" it is a gas log set. And you should never smell gas, not even when its new. First of all any gas coming out should get burnt, and if anything doesn't it should be going up the flue. Do you have the damper fixed / locked open 100%? Did the installer do a spill test on to make sure no exhaust was spilling into the room? Do you have a CO detector?

Not sure why that original wood fireplace was put half inside and half outside, its not made to be. I guess in your climate you don't mind having a giant hole in the side of the house? You don't have much problems with rust down there either do you?


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## Winebrats (Dec 2, 2009)

I'll have the installer come back out and check.  We do have a CO detector and the damper is open all the way.  

It's actually all inside, just glass doors that open to the outside as well, 2 sets of doors, one in and one out.  It's noce sitting outside with the fire on "cool" nights.  When not in use, there is a plexi that you put behind the inner set of doors to help block any draft.


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## GasMan (Dec 6, 2009)

Call your Gas supplier(Gas Company) and have them come out to find the source of the leak-it is not normal to smell gas regardless if the unit is on or off.  They should do this for you at no charge-don't take any chances!


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## Winebrats (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks. All.  I called the installer and he said that since it is open on both sides, the pressure in the house will suck in any residual gas since that is the path of least resistance vs going up the flu.  He wants us to try using it with both doors closed and assured us the glass doors will be fine...not sure I buy that.  I will call the gas company this week.  We haven't used it since.


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## DAKSY (Dec 6, 2009)

DON"T burn it with both doors closed. For one thing, you probably don't have PyroCeram in the doors,
& if you do, the gas valve can't take the heat of being in an 
enclosed fireplace. There are rubber gaskets & in the valve 
that will be deformed (or worse) by the heat & you won't
like the replacement costs...


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## Winebrats (Dec 6, 2009)

Oh lord...glad I didn't yet...the gas co will get a call tomorrow to, once and for all, see where the smell is coming from and if we can stop it...otherwise the $500 investment into the log set will have been a waste.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 6, 2009)

More about the doors, not only should you NOT burn with both doors shut, you should also not burn it with only one door shut. BOTH sets of doors should be fully open when it is used.


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## Winebrats (Dec 6, 2009)

Yep, the installer did say both or neither, not one or the other.  I am very curious as what the gas co. has to say.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 6, 2009)

Its only "both or neither" when burning wood. Its both open only, when using a gas log.

If you smell gas when its in use then then Gas co. will find gas with their meter and then they will lock the thing out and tell you not to use it. Most gas co. don't do much fireplace repair, they just disable it and say to call a repair place.

The comment about the house pressure sucking in any residual gas is a little scary, because that would mean exhaust (and CO) is coming in your house also. If the fireplace "spills" with both doors open, a gas log should never have been installed in it in the first place. My guess that with a wood unit half inside and half out it never did draft properly.

As I said before, did they perform a spill test after installing it to make sure it was drafting properly and not spilling exhaust into the house? The mfg of gas logs we use recommends you close all doors and windows in the house and run the log set for 3 minutes, then use a smoke source and hold it about 1" down from the hood. The smoke should get pulled into the fireplace and up the flue, if it is hesitant or spills back into the house then that is a huge problem.


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## Winebrats (Dec 6, 2009)

I don't know if they performed a spill test.  I wasn't here and since we are new to gas, in general, I'm sure my husband didn't ask.  

At least if the gas company says there is an issue, I have some footing to go back to the installer with.  My nose has always been super sensitive.  Hubby says he doesn't smell it.  I will make sure they do that test when they are here to fix it, whether it's the same installer or another.  I would think if they want to please a customer that they would be willing to come out and fix whatever the gas co finds.

I really do appreciate all your info.


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## Winebrats (Dec 8, 2009)

Well the gas company won't come out.  They said unless I smell gas now (which I don't, it's only when I use it) they won't come out.  So I called back the installer and he recommended a licensed plumber since if it is leaking, that is who would do the repair.  But I explained it doesn't smell unless it is used...then he said we should get someone to look at the chimney and why it isn't drafting...OY  So now I am calling the chimney guy...


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## bobed2121 (Dec 8, 2009)

_


			
				jtp10181 said:
			
		


			BOTH sets of doors should be fully open when it is used.
		
Click to expand...

_
We just moved into a place that has a double sided gas fireplace in the master bedroom. There is glass on three sides with two of them being doors that open. There is a  switch on the wall that turns on the fireplace but no thermostat to be found. We have had it on during the evenings with the doors closed and it cuts off after a while, (haven't timed it yet to see just how long it burns, but roughly 30 minutes) Then throughout the night it comes back on and burns awhile then goes out. So you are saying that the doors *MUST *be open before burning it?


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## DAKSY (Dec 9, 2009)

If you can reach in & touch the logs AFTER you open the doors, i.e. there is NOT a fixed glass panel BEHIND the doors,
you DO NOT want to burn that thing in your bedroom.
I could be wrong, but I believe the code book says you have to have something like 50 cubic feet of room 
PER 1,000 BTUs in  order to have a VENTED gas log approved for a bedroom...
Most gas logs are BTU hogs & that dictates that your bedroom be HUGE...
If you've got, say a 60K BTU gas log, you've got to have a 3K cu ft Bedroom. 
Divide 3K x 8 ft ceiling height & you get 375 sq ft...That's a BIG bedroom, least round these parts...
If you have fixed glass panels behind your doors, sounds like you've got a thermopile goin south


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## bobed2121 (Dec 9, 2009)

_


			
				DAKSY said:
			
		


			If you can reach in & touch the logs AFTER you open the doors, i.e. there is NOT a fixed glass panel BEHIND the doors,
you DO NOT want to burn that thing in your bedroom.
		
Click to expand...

_Yes once the doors are opened I can reach in and through the doors on the other side. The only glass is on the bi-fold doors and one end. There is wire screenings that can open and close as well much like my fathers old wood burning fireplace.

_



			I could be wrong, but I believe the code book says you have to have something like 50 cubic feet of room 
PER 1,000 BTUs in  order to have a VENTED gas log approved for a bedroom...
		
Click to expand...

_I'll measure tonight but it is pretty large indeed and is open to the master bath area

_



			If you have fixed glass panels behind your doors, sounds like you've got a thermopile goin south
		
Click to expand...

_No fixed panels just glass bi-fold doors.


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## bobed2121 (Dec 9, 2009)

Very much like this one
http://images.homeportfolio.com/1178/229135/200.jpg


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## jtp10181 (Dec 9, 2009)

Winebrats, sound like you are getting the run around, sorry to hear that. Why don't you perform the spill test yourself? If it fails you may have some recourse with the place that sold / installed the log set. Check the install manual for the log set and see what they recommend for a spill test in their instructions. I have a feeling all a chimney guy is going to say is that yeah it doesn't draft good, and there's nothing he can do about it.

bobed2121, There is no thermostat because it is probably a gas log set, which is not a heating appliance. Also as DAKSY said there are air volume requirements for wood fireplaces and gas logs in bed rooms. If it is a gas log you probably do need to run it with both doors open. When you run it with doors shut you are probably overheating the components which is why it turns off. I would especially NOT be running that thing while I sleep. I urge you to at a minimum get a GOOD Carbon Monoxide detector for your bedroom.


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## Winebrats (Dec 9, 2009)

I will do the spill test.  We didn't get any paper work, aside from the recipt, as far as the logs.  

"close all doors and windows in the house and run the log set for 3 minutes, then use a smoke source and hold it about 1” down from the hood. The smoke should get pulled into the fireplace and up the flue, if it is hesitant or spills back into the house then that is a huge problem."
 What is "the hood"?  Is that the glass door entrance?  The flu?

I am hoping there is something that can be done to improve the draft up the chimney if that is the problem...lengthen the chimney?  A fan...something?


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## jtp10181 (Dec 9, 2009)

Hood / top of door opening, whatever...

Basically you put the smoke in positions where the fireplace meets the room, if drafting properly it should draw it into the firebox and up the flue.

Also, did you even get the make / model of the log set they installed? Does it have a rating plate attached to it? If not, then where is the testing / listing information? All decorative gas appliances need to be tested against certain ANSI standards by an approved testing agency. That information needs to be attached to the appliance at all times. I would request an installation manual, or make/model so you can find one online.


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## Winebrats (Dec 9, 2009)

I will request one as Hubby said we didn't get anything except the receipt, but on the receipt it says "part #RG4218 18" See thru Golden Oaks Logs"

did a little searching - looks like it is probably RH Peterson, Real Fyre brand, based on the part number


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## Winebrats (Dec 9, 2009)

OK, so I did the spill test.  Not good...the smoke from the extinguished matches came billowing into the house.  All the windows and doors were closed, but after I did it I realized the forced air heat was on.  Should I have turned that off?


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## Winebrats (Dec 9, 2009)

I gotta do it again.  I didn't close the interior doors...only the exterior doors and windows.  I found this for more detail about it:
How to Check for Dangerous Chimney & Flue Backdrafting by Performing a "Worst Case" Test

In homes with the potential for back- drafting, a simple test can be conducted to determine the likelihood of problems:

Close all interior doors except those leading to the furnace room and rooms where exhaust fans are located. 

Switch on all exhaust fans, dryers, and other exhaust equipment, including the air handler if the home has forced-air heating. 

Turn up the thermostat to turn on the boiler or furnace, and run hot water to turn on the water heater burner. 

Hold a smoke indicator, such as an incense stick, about 3 inches from the draft hood of a gas furnace or water hater or near the barometric damper of an oil furnace. Test a fireplace near the top center of the firebox opening, and a woodstove near the doors or where the stovepipe connects to the stove. 

Perform the test with the air handler both on and off, since unbalanced airflows can be a significant factor. If smoke spills into the room for more than 30 seconds at any combustion appliance, the home has a potential backdrafting problem that requires attention. 

A more scientific procedure for determining backdrafting potential, using a pressure gauge, can be found in Step 7 of the “Recommended Procedures for Safety Inspection” in Appendix H of the National Fuel Gas Code.

The chimney guy is coming on the 28th and I am hoping he has some ways we can improve the draft.  I was reading that they said it could be from a poor insulated chimney, too, so if we have to run a stainless steel one inside that is better insulated, so be it.  I installed a SS chimney in our old house, but not inside an existing chimney...


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## jtp10181 (Dec 9, 2009)

Well just closing the exterior doors / windows was prob best case scenario, so doing all the things suggested in the info you found should only make it worse. Prob does not help that half the fireplace is outside and the air can just blow from outside right through into the house.

Also, dropping a liner down the flue is going to reduce its size, this will make the situation even worse.

It looks like you have a prefabricated metal fireplace anyway, so you cannot reduce the flue size on that, it is specced out for a certain chimney and that's it. Going along with this, I really think the "chimney" guy is going to be a huge waste of time. About all he can do if its a prefab is order another section of chimney pipe and add it to the top making it taller.

Did you have a home inspection done on the house / fireplace before purchase? This fireplace is a serious issue and I doubt would ever function properly. Could have some recourse with disclosure at the home sale or with the inspection company. Unfortunately your best option might be to remove the entire thing and put in either a single sided fireplace, gas or wood, or a sealed indoor / outdoor gas fireplace. This is the only sealed indoor / outdoor gas fireplace I know of: http://www.heatnglo.com/products/fireplaces/gasFireplaceDetail.asp?f=05950


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## Winebrats (Dec 10, 2009)

I think you are looking at the other persons fireplace picture.  Ours is not prefab.  Ours is pictured in the first post.  It is the cement block.  On the original plans it was supposed to be a one sided, but the owner wanted a 2 sided.  Yes the house was inspected and the fireplace was looked at and we even had them clean the chimney before closing.  The previous owner used it for wood with a gas starter.

We'll find a solution.  I am not opposed to closing up the outer wall with masonry, but the installer better take back the see through gas log set he sold us.  I would much rather find a solution for the lack of draft than close it as we like the effect of the see through.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 10, 2009)

If it worked for burning wood without filling the house with smoke, it should be able to draft properly with a gas log.

I was looking at the first pic, it really looks like a prefab, but that metal frame I see must just be the frame for the doors.


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## Winebrats (Dec 10, 2009)

Gotcha!  Yes, UGLY metal doors...If swapping those out for something nicer, but needing to keep them closed, would be an option I would take it!


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## Winebrats (Dec 10, 2009)

Got the manual.  Company emailed me the PDF.  Their #1 troubleshooting discussed the drafting and recommended making sure the chimney is 3feet taller than anything within 10feet of it (which I am pretty sure it is).  Also to consult a chimney sweep to check it and possibly install a chimney cap or fan.  It even said "in severe conditions, you may need to open a window near the fireplace 1-2 inches when burning the log set"

That goes with what I have researched about energy efficient homes causing backdrafts because they are so airtight and houses need to "breathe".  So hopefuly the chimney sweep will have a resolution, otherwise we will be cracking a window.


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## Inside Guy (Dec 10, 2009)

I am by no means a fireplace expert, but I do have over 15 years experience designing and certifying gas and wood burning fireplaces, and I've never seen a open hearth, see-thru, indoor/outdoor, wood burning fireplace.  I can't believe this a legal application.  Was this home inspected prior to your purchase?  You really need to find the identification on the fireplace and then contact the manufacture of the fireplace... not the gas log set.  Establish a file with the fireplace manufacture. 

This sounds all to familar, a homeowner has a complaint with a smoking, spilling wood burning fireplaces and some builder thinks he can fix the problem by installing a set of gas log.  The fact of the matter is if a fireplace spills with wood, there's a very good chance you'll have problems with gas.  It'll continue to be a problem until the root cause of the problem is properly diagnosed.

Spillage is not something you want to take a chance on, the consequences are deadly  Contact the fireplace mfg.


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## Winebrats (Dec 10, 2009)

Yes, as I stated before, the house was inspected.  The seller said she burned in the fireplace (wood with a gas starter).  I can't imagine she allowed her home to fill with smoke.  I have seen the design before.  Maybe it is a southern thing.  Where would identification be?  Why do you assume there is a fireplace manufacturer?  Can a fireplace not be built without a manufacturer?  I'm not clear on that.  It looks as if it was built on site, it's not an add on, it's masonry.  On the original design blueprint, it was a onesided fireplace and the seller wanted it see through so they did.  So either both the final inspection for the house AND our inspection when buying it "let it slide" or it is not unusual here.  

It was plumbed for gas from the building of the house, it was never JUST a wood fireplace.  WE installed the gas logs (the installer) because we didn't want wood.  I need to redoe the spill test anyway and be sure I do it correctly this time.  Also, the Chimney sweep will shed some light on the draft situation and what can be done.

HAH!!  I found a mettle tag with info about the fireplace!  DESA...now I have to research the model number.


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## Winebrats (Dec 10, 2009)

Well the seller got back to me...and it's all becoming clear now...par for the course with this seller...it was all about looks and she did NO research into building this house and just went along with "pretty" things with no thought about how things function...

"Doug (builder) brought a fireplace guy to visit with us. The fireplace guy recommended the 2 sided FP. We didn't use it very much but 1 time we tried to open both sides & all the smoke went inside. Something to do with negative air pressure according to the FP guy we talked to so after that we kept the outer doors closed and never had another problem. To be honest Doug had the FP guy put it in. He didn't do it himself. I'm sure I don't still have the guy's name but I could see if Doug does."

So, lets talk about doors.  Since it is looking like the draft IS the issue completely, and I don't know, yet, if the chimney guy can do anything to improve the draft...Are there such doors I can install that one side can stay closed with a gas fireplace so the draft works?  Are there such doors that both doors can be closed?  Can a fireplace such as this be closed in on one side with masonry?  I refuse to accept that I am now stuck with this gaping, useless hole in my wall.


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## Inside Guy (Dec 10, 2009)

Just a little basic info:  When installed inside a home, See-Thru woodburner can be problematic.  One reason is the room on one side is very different from the room on the other side in terms of dimensions and air flow.  This results in spillage to one side.  Generally this is easily avoided by keeping the doors on the opposite side of the spillage close.  

I'm really simplifying things here, so bare with me 

If wood was burned, you examine the left and right sides of the refractory, generally there is a big difference in black residue accumulation from the opening view from room (A) to room (B).    The side that has more soot (side A or B) is the side that the spilling.  In your case, this black residue is probably favoring the interior fireplace side.  

If only gas was burned, look at the fake logs, the side that has more black residue is probably the spilling side.  You probably can put air tight doors on the exterior side, this may help.  Desa probably offers and air tight door option.  Really, your fireplace will be affected with the weather, some days good or not too bad... and other terrible and dangerous.  I can't think of a proper solution that I'd feel good about.  The fact that this is open to the outside is very, very complicated.

It'd be nice if there was a see thru gas DIRECT VENT insert out there, but I don't think they exsist.  I suppose you could put a single-sided gas DIRECT VENT insert facing the interior, but then your exterior view of the fireplace would be bad.  The only true indoor outdoor fireplace that I know of is made by heat & glo, the twilight.  This is a nice gas direct vent see thru fireplace, however, the costs to do this could get exspensive. 

Hope this helps.


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## Inside Guy (Dec 10, 2009)

One more thing, don't let the builder and fireplace guy confuse you with terms like "negative pressure" and things like that.  Sure you might have negative pressure, but the real problem is you've got a big whole in you house.


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## Winebrats (Dec 10, 2009)

Is it possible to mason up the outer side?  

Since she only burned wood in it with the outer doors closed, and rarely, there are no soot marks and there were no gas logs before we bought them, so, regardless, the spill is coming inside, not out.  

I would be very happy if i could get through to DESA...there phone has been busy all day and the 800 & 866 number is disconnected AND the website doesn't work...I would love the option of a sealed outer glass side.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 11, 2009)

I heard DESA is no longer....

Yes you should be able to mason over one side.
Also you might be able to just get a sealed glass for the outdoor side.

http://www.glassfireplacedoors.com/
See if they have a dealer near you, we get doors from them.


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## Winebrats (Dec 11, 2009)

Thanks for the link!  I will look into the sealed glass before the mason as it is nice to see outside.


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## Winebrats (Dec 28, 2009)

OK, so the final solution, after 2 different fireplace places (one that came out and one that was explained on the phone), you guys advice and the Chimney sweep who came out.  We ARE to use the fireplace with the outer door closed and the inner door open.  When this is done, the draft works perfectly.  Because of the way it is set up, the normal rule to open both/close both does NOT apply here.  We could extend the chimney by 1 or 2 lengths to possibly improve the draft, because although it is adhereing to the 10/2 rule (or whatever) it might be improved and is fairly inexpensive to do.  There is no need to replace the outer door with a fixed one as long as we keep it closed when burning.  It needs to be "warmed up" for 5-10 minutes at a low temperature to heat up the flu and then can be turned up.  End result, heat in the house without gas spill and it still looks good.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 28, 2009)

You do realize that gas logs still are not a heating appliance, and you will not get an overall heat gain in the house. The area around the logs will get warmer, while outside air will get sucked in elsewhere in the house. Although with half the fireplace being outside it may be sucking enough air from there.

I hope the gas log set you have is a singled sided set, if it is a double sided set the flame on the outer side will be starving for air all the time and drift. It could overheat the controls or blow the glass out.

Also, I would fix the outside doors shut somehow, so no one can accidentally burn it with them open and kill everyone in the house.


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## Winebrats (Dec 29, 2009)

Yes, we know it won't heat the house, but it does take the chill off the room if we don't want the heat on.  We do live in Texas, so there really is never a need for "heat".  It's more for the ambiance and a toastyness while sipping wine in the chaise.  Since there are only 2 of us in the house, I am not too concerned with one of us accidentally burning it with it open.  If we both aren't here, it won't be on.  We were told by all the people who have seen the unit that the glass will be fine.  If it blows, we replace it, but both the fireplace place guys who saw it and the chimney sweep said that is unlikely to happen.  As for controls, I'm not sure what you are referencing...the only "control" is the key in the wall to turn the gas on.  We light it with a match.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 29, 2009)

Sounds like you are good to go then. Its nothing I would consider safe, or acceptable, but I guess it is what it is...


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