# tv antenna



## chrisasst (Apr 11, 2011)

anyone have a good tv antenna that you would like to recommend and you live out in the country? I was looking at RCA ANT1650 Flat Digital Amplified Indoor TV Antenna. Seems to have good reviews, but I am not 100% sold on it.  any suggestions


----------



## Grisu (Apr 11, 2011)

That may depend a lot where you are living compared to the stations you want to receive. I would suggest checking here first which type of antenna may be suitable in your situation:
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx
Just to give you an idea what a crapshot it can be: We had an old RCA antenna which worked for most stations in our area but not all. I bought an amplified Phillips thinking it may be better. In fact, it was way worse and I put it in the closet. Then we moved just about 10 miles south. Now the RCA antenna does not get anything but just by chance I tried the Phillips again and get about half of the stations. 
I am considering putting up a roof antenna but we are not watching much tv anyway.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 11, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> anyone have a good tv antenna that you would like to recommend and you live out in the country? I was looking at RCA ANT1650 Flat Digital Amplified Indoor TV Antenna. Seems to have good reviews, but I am not 100% sold on it.  any suggestions



"Good" is a relative term, and all depends on what channels are potentially available in your area.

I've got many antennas installed in central New York and also in northern Michigan.  In both areas, reception greatly improved after the digital changeover - but there is much to know.

I get many channels perfectly from 80 miles way - with mountians and woods inbetween.

You need to know if you want to get VHF low, VHF high, or UHF.  All need different antennas.  

Many channels switched bands and some even changed transmitter locations - so you can base your info on how things used to be.

Go to a place like :   http://www.tvfool.com/
Click on "TV signal locator" and then type in your address or GPS co-ords.  It will tell you what is available.

I live 50 miles from the nearest transmitter of any sort.  If you live in Cortland, that is much more closer by.
If all you want is the strong and close channels, just about and small amplited antenna will work as long as it's combo-VHF/UHF.  If you want distant channels, you must have a large antenna.  A Winegard HD8200 is about the best large combo unit.  You'd also need a 26-30 dB LNA (antenna signal amp).

You've got about two strong VHF channels in your area - RF channels 6 and 7.
Near a dozen strong UHF channels - RF 19, 24, 44, 20, 25, 47,  16, 17, and 18. 

Just keep in mind that digital channels each usually have two numbers - the real RF channel and the fake "virtual" channel that they identify themselves with.   So, RF19 shows up as channel 68 Fox, and RF 24 shows as 3.1 NBC, and RF 44 shows as 43.1 MyN, etc.


----------



## dvellone (Apr 11, 2011)

I live in the Adirondacks of upstate NY - heavily wooded and hilly terrain - around 40-45 miles minimum from broadcasting stations and I purchased this antenna:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=91XG&d=Antennas-Direct-91XG-UHF-TV-Antenna-(91XG)&c=TV Antennas&sku=853748001910 and an amp.

As important as the antenna if you're a ways from the broadcasting station is a good quality amplifier (read: not radio shack)

With the antenna and amp we're able to receive all the stations within receivable range. This antenna is uhf specific which almost all stations are broadcasting in, but we do receive one from a good distance that's still pushing a vhf signal. The antenna will receive the vhf signal better when pointed the opposite direction- vhf is stronger than uhf. Check your stations to see if they're broadcasting uhf or vhf.

This antenna came recommended by a neighbor who owns an electronics store and did his research before getting his. He's farther than me from the stations and yet receives them all well.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 12, 2011)

dvellone said:
			
		

> As important as the antenna if you're a ways from the broadcasting station is a good quality amplifier (read: not radio shack)



Not entirely true. Yes a good amp is needed in fringe areas.  Not true that all Radio Shack amps are bad or inferior.

I've tested every major brand high-gain amp sold in the USA as well as two, very exspensive ultra-low-noise British amps.
That included the dual-input Channel Master and the highest dB Winegard.

The 30dB gain Radio Shack amp actually made by Antenna Craft worked as well as the other leading models. Even better for some channels since it has an ajustable gain control.

Being in the Adirondacks has nothing to do with it.  The terrain varies all over the park as it does in other areas.


----------



## PJF1313 (Apr 12, 2011)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> dvellone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I was working at Rat Shak in H.S., moons ago, their amps seemed like they where flying out the door.  Got to talking to some of the costumers about them, and they would almost always say that where great in pulling in UHF and Low VHF at the time.
But, we are going 30+ years back tho....  I suspect now, like anything else, they are made in China.  I remember at the time, depending on model, they where either made in Japan or Taiwan.

EDIT - The area I was in at the time was about 35 miles ENE of NYC, and 30-some-odd miles from CT.


----------



## dvellone (Apr 12, 2011)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> dvellone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Being in the Adirondacks has a great impact on reception. Between the heavy forest cover and mountains there is much to inhibit reception, and this is a point I brought up to illustrate how well our antenna was working for us. Antennaweb.org actually predicts no reception at all for our location and yet we're pulling all the available signals.

As far as radio shack amps go I'll stick with my opinion. My brother was an electrical engineer for Phillips and they used to run tests on amps and found that radio shack amps often were so poorly built that many didn't function at all. I learned this after we had purchased one and it didn't boost our signal at all and I called him for help. Maybe they've changed their quality control in the past few years or offer models made by a higher quality manufacturer.


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 12, 2011)

us. Antennaweb.org also says I don't get stations, but find that hard to believe...


----------



## colebrookman (Apr 12, 2011)

We use the Winegard platinum series antenna with their amp and we've had good results.  We also have a rotor which, at least for us, is needed.  WE get 40 or more channels by turning the antenna but usually go back to 10 or less favorites.  My neighbor a half mile away has the same antenna but gets different channels.  Go figure.  Be safe.
Ed


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 12, 2011)

dvellone said:
			
		

> Being in the Adirondacks has a great impact on reception. Between the heavy forest cover and mountains there is much to inhibit reception
> 
> As far as radio shack amps go I'll stick with my opinion. My brother was an electrical engineer for Phillips and they used to run tests on amps .



The title of "Adirondacks" has little specific meaning.  I live at two different areas in the Adirondack park summer and fall.  It is a huge place with terrain that varies greatly.  The "Adirondack Park" today is bigger and not the same size as when first established.  There is much more foothill-type and flatter land in it, then as is was when originally created.  I camp all over the park and in some areas - can get over a dozen channels perfectly from a hand-held portable antenna. Especially when near Watertown and Utica.  To the converse, I know of many places in Hamilton County that even with a 50 foot tower only one PBS station can be received.

There are many places in rural NY outside the park that have the same receoption problems.  The Catskills and the Applachians block signals for many.

No matter where you are  - you need to know what is where and on what specific wavelength.  Line-of-site is not always needed since TV signals reflect and bounce.  Different types of antennas work better with different types of reception.  For example, often when trying to receive signals with mountains in the way, signals deflect, split, and come in as multiples.  If you have a wide-beam antenna these "multiples" can fight each other and ruin a signal. In the old analog days, they would create ghosts on the screen.  With digital, they can totally ruin the signal.

In regard to claims made by electric engineers?  Just like anything else, claims and engineers vary.  My son is a communications engineer and designs military antenna systems.  That being said, he is no expert when it comes to over-the-air digital TV.

The best information on the subject is from those that have actually installed and used equipment out in the field.  That usually means installers - NOT engineers and not electronic sales people.

Radio Shack is just a reseller. They sell some great, some mid-range, and some bad.   Who doesn't?   The 30 dB amps that Radio Shack has sold - with adjustable gain and indoor switched FM trap have been great.  They are made by the Antenna Craft Company.  Do you really think they are somehow better when boxed with just the Antenna Craft label instead of Radio Shack Archer label?

With the last run of amps I tested - ALL the major name-brand amps sold in the USA are made in China.  The high-priced ultra-low-noise British amps are actually made in the UK - but with many Chinese components.

Say what you want.   I've installed many and tested many with over a dozen different new antennas - in many types of terrain.   I've seen what has worked and what hasn't.   That being said,  no two places are going to be exactly the same.  Also, the chip in the TV tuner can make a huge difference. 

There is a lot to know depending on specifices.  Antenns beam width, noise versus gain with amp, decision to install stand-alone antennas, or gang them, or stack them,  choice of RG6 or RG11 co-ax,etc. etc.

I have tested the following in fringe and strong-signal areas - in the middle of New York mountains and out in flatter northern Michigan.

Amps - Radio Shack Archer 10G212 - 30 dB max adjustable gain - made by Antenna Craft.  Best buy I've ever found.
           Antenna Craft or Radio Shack 10G202 - 29 dB gain, not adjustable
           Channel Master 7777 is VHF 23 dB and UHF 26 dB gain.  Considered the Cadillac of amps and made in China. 
           Winegard AP-8275 amp is: VHF 29 dB and UHF 28 dB gain.  Also considered top-of-the-line by many installers.
           Research Communications (England) # 9253 is 23 dB gain UHF with .6 ultralow-noise.

Those are the highest rated amps I've tested, but I've also used many others.  My favorite -the Radio Shack 30 dB amps were seling under the Antenna Caft label for $28 each.  A real bargain. To the converse - the ultra-low noise British amp cost $350.

I've also tested many antennas.  Installed as stand-along, stacked, and ganged.   No antenna is best for all situations.  The Winegard HD8200 is the best for general overall reception for fringe areas.

Tell me about what YOU have actually installed and tested.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 12, 2011)

colebrookman said:
			
		

> We use the Winegard platinum series antenna with their amp and we've had good results.  We also have a rotor which, at least for us, is needed.  WE get 40 or more channels by turning the antenna but usually go back to 10 or less favorites.  My neighbor a half mile away has the same antenna but gets different channels.  Go figure.  Be safe.
> Ed



Just moving 10 feet sideways, up or down can make a difference.  Signals also can change hourly, daily, by the seasons, etc.  Especially if near mountains.

One big problem with rotators - with certain TVs - is the tuners that do not allow mulitple scans when pointing at different directions.  Those tuners can make it difficult to get all the channels registered.


----------



## oldspark (Apr 12, 2011)

I've got this one and it works good with the stations 80 miles away but I can get most of the same stations with a rabbit ear, and as stated above location is as improtant as any thing. I know it says 35 miles but all my stations are 80 to 100 miles away.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...CODE=WEBGOOPA&cm_mmc_o=mH4CjC7BBTkwCjCV1-CjCE


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 12, 2011)

anyone have one of these

Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified High-Definition Antenna for Off-Air HDTV Reception


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 12, 2011)

Skip all the hokey pokey internally amplified antennaes, the ones at chain stores, and those made by RCA. Mail order a real antennae from an antennae company like wineguard or channelmaster. You can even make your own. 

Get ready for free OTA HD TV.


----------



## Woody Stover (Apr 15, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> anyone have one of these
> Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified High-Definition Antenna for Off-Air HDTV Reception


Do you have a digital tuner in your TV, or are you running an analog TV through a converter box? The converter boxes generally have excellent tuners...
Running a TVFool for Cortland, NY shows two stations that would be easy to get with an indoor antenna and amp. All stations available to you are 2-edge diffraction (signal must crest two ridges to get to you.) Tough location.

This is the best small antenna I've found (it's really an outdoor unit, but it's small enough to use indoors.) It's essentially a UHF antenna, but does OK on VHF. You'd have to make a little stand to mount it on. You only have one VHF station, CBS in Binghampton, the rest are UHF and basically North of you. This antenna is bi-directional and picks up off the back of the antenna, which might enable you to get the couple of stations toward Syracuse, and the CBS in Binghampton without adjusting the antenna.

Go here, type in your address, and map it. The default antenna height is 10'. Try 15 and 20' and see if the noise margins improve. That will tell you weather it's worth going to the trouble to try for more stations with an outdoor set-up (better signal, but you have to worry about lightning protection, etc.) Then click on "Make radar plot" and post a screen shot. Failing that, you can copy and paste the numbers here. (Or if you're comfortable with it, PM me your addy and I'll check it out for you.)

http://tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90

If you go this route, get the genuine Antennas Direct DB2, not a knock-off:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DB2&d=Antennas-Direct-DB2-UHF-HDTV-Antenna-(DB2)&c=TV Antennas&sku;=

Here's the pre-amp I use:
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AP8275&d=Winegard-AP8275-Chromstar-2000-Series-VHFUHF-Pre-Amplifier-(AP8275)&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku;=


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 19, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> chrisasst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amazon has good reviews on this one. Do you think the next one up would be any better. ( Antennas Direct DB4 Multi-Directional HDTV Antenna ) for $11 more or not.  I just tried an rca ant 111 and couldn't get anything..


----------



## Woody Stover (Apr 20, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Amazon has good reviews on this one. Do you think the next one up would be any better. ( Antennas Direct DB4 Multi-Directional HDTV Antenna ) for $11 more or not.  I just tried an rca ant 111 and couldn't get anything..


I have a DB4 also, and didn't notice any difference indoors. Actually, I think the DB2 did a little better. That RCA antenna doesn't have a preamp...not enough gain to pull in anything, based on the numbers for Cortland. Those numbers are for a location that looks like it's the main intersection in the middle of town. The problem with that location is that it is at less than 1200 ft. elevation and is surrounded by 1500 ft. hills. That's why I'd like to see the numbers at your actual location. Also, the NM numbers that they give are based on an outdoor antenna, and don't take into account nearby man-made obstructions, trees etc. If you have a lot of trees between your antenna and the station, you may have multipath trouble when it's windy.
Are you considering putting an antenna outside? If you want to try inside first, be aware that the construction of your home can affect reception, too. Aluminum siding, a masonry exterior, or roofing materials for an attic install, may cut signal strength. As you may have gathered from reading this thread, this stuff is _way_ more involved than deciding which stove to buy. 
If your numbers are similar to the Cortland numbers, I'd say that you'll be able to get the two strongest stations for sure with a DB2 and the preamp, inside a stick construction home. The stations I reliably get inside range from 61 NM LOS to 13 NM 1-edge.
On TVFool, you can pick the "hybrid" view, put the antenna on the exact location on your home, at the correct and have it draw lines to the transmitters to see if there are any obstructions that may affect the signal.
If you decide to go outside with a rotor, you should be able to do much better. Previous posters have mentioned some great antennas for fringe reception.
Good luck.  I hope you report back with the results, whatever you decide to do.


----------



## djblech (Apr 20, 2011)

I just put up the largest exterior RCA antenna that Menards sells, I think it was about $70. I also installed a roter so I can tune it. I am about 50 miles S of Duluth MN and can now pick up all stations with good reception. 
Doug


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 20, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> anyone have a good tv antenna that you would like to recommend and you live out in the country? I was looking at RCA ANT1650 Flat Digital Amplified Indoor TV Antenna. Seems to have good reviews, but I am not 100% sold on it.  any suggestions



You can read antenna specs forever and still now know what will work best in your situation.

You haven't stated if you want to get the best reception possible - or will be satisfied with just geting the strongest signals in your area.

I'm in central New York with multiple mountain peaks that block all direct signals to my home.  Besides the obstructions, the closest transmitter towers are 50 miles from me, and the furthest that I'm picking up are 80 miles.  When you have non-line-of-sight signals, they often are refracted and come in as muliples.  An antenna with a narrow reception range works best if you have those problems.   If an antenns receives 2 or 3 signals from the same channel, they tend to weaken each other. A  narrow antenna will be able to focus on just one.

When I used signal projection, like from TVFool.com  - I can get all the channels listed as low a minus 30 NM with is pretty weak.

The Winegard HD8200 is by far that best antenna for "fringe" reception on all the bands - low VHF, high VHF, and UHF.   It's not as good on the UHF bands as several UHF only antennas  but often good enough for many people.  keep in mind, it's a big antenna.

If you want to target the UHF channels, the Antennas-Direct DB8 or Terrestial-Digial 91XG do the best from any tests I've done.
Not only did they beat everything else I've tried - people from all over the USA report the same.    The DB8 is more rugged and compact then the longer 91XG if that makes any difference to you.

I attached some photos.  I installed dual 91XGs to get some very weak signals.  By installing duals, you can get a slight gain over just one if done properly.

If you are serious, an LNA is a must (mast mounted amp).

By the way, there have been little "digital antennas" advertised all over, with built in rotator and amp.  You can often buy for $30.  I've got a couple of them. I use them on an RV and also use them for testing purposes.  They actually work great, for what they are.  Yes, they are cheap, Chinese, and flimsy, but they do work very well for a small antenna.


----------



## colebrookman (Apr 20, 2011)

That's my Winegard, Love it .  Be safe.
Ed


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 20, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> chrisasst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Here is my address 4886 health camp rd, cortland ny 13045...  I don't see the hybrid view on tvfool?  

Here is a question, I do have a very old antenna already on top of my house. I hooked that up to my tv and got nothing. I am still learning about this stuff so, a) with out climbing the roof and look at it, the wires may have rusted, or b) Do the older antenna still work with the newer tv's ?  

Also I do have Aluminum siding so I may be fighting a loosing battle with an inside antenna then right? Can a DB2 be put outside?

Also, question about a converter box, I have hdtv's that I am pretty sure have tuners in them, so I don't need a converter box correct?


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 20, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Here is a question, I do have a very old antenna already on top of my house. I hooked that up to my tv and got nothing. I am still learning about this stuff so, a) with out climbing the roof and look at it, the wires may have rusted, or b) Do the older antenna still work with the newer tv's ?



The age of the antenna doesn't matter.  But, year's back most TV reception was on low or high VHF so  many older antennas are VHF only.   Now, most digital channels are on UHF.  Obviously, if you have a VHF only antenna, it's not going to work well with UHF.

Something else to consider.  Digital is all for nothing.   No more weak channels showing up as "snowy" on the screen.  So, you can have an antenna that's 9/10ths adequate and you'll still see nothing.

And yet another thing is  - your favorite channels from the past may be comimg from totally different directions now.  Many companies moved to different towers when/if they changed to digital, or changed bands.

If you antenna is very old, I'd suspect bad co-ax wire or a bad balun-transformer - betore I condemed the antenna itself.

My huge Wade VHF antenna was bought new in 1979.  After a few years,  I built a satellite dish and threw the antenna in my farm dump.  It sat there for near 30 years.  Last  year, I hauled it back out of the dump and installed it. Works great for what it is - VHF only.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 20, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Woody Stover said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 20, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Do you think the next one up would be any better. ( Antennas Direct DB4 Multi-Directional HDTV Antenna ) for $11 more or not.



The cheap little Chinese antennas like the following on Ebay work suprisingly well.  They ARE cheap junk and pretty flimsy but . . . for an indoor install they're kind of amazing.   Mostly due the high gain amp. I've got several of them.  Looking at your TVFool projection,  one of these little el-cheapos would probably get half a dozen channels easily - mounted inside your house.

I use one on my RV.  For $25 with a built in amp AND rotator AND remote, it's hard to go wrong.  I also installed one at my in-laws house in a rural area of  Nothern Michgan.  I stuck it in their attic.  
I also use them for "signal mapping" before installing a real antenna outside.    I tie one to a long pole, hooked to a portable TV and walk around to find the best antenna sites.  Last summer, while "mapping" my land for signals - I was able to get around 10 channels with one of these little antennas and I'm in an extreme fringe area.  Later, after installing many large "real" antennas, I wound up getting another 4 channels.  

Note I'm not trying to sell you anything but .  . . these things DO work.  Whatever you do, you really need a good amp mounted at the antenna, NOT a line amp in the house somewhere.  Without an amp, you apt to get nothing.


http://cgi.ebay.com/HDTV-AMPLIFIED-...450?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2e16aca2

http://cgi.ebay.com/Outdoor-HDTV-An...itu=UCC&otn=5&ps=63&clkid=8597702719637855367


----------



## Woody Stover (Apr 21, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Here is my address...I don't see the hybrid view on tvfool?


The hybrid view and other buttons are on the google map in the upper right corner.
Whew. Rough sleddin' at your location but with a high gain antenna like the DB8 and a good low-noise preamp it can be done, as jdemaris has said (he's obviously got plenty of experience at snagging weak signals.) Probably best to go with a new antenna; The aluminum of the elements themselves have probably oxidized over the years and won't make good connections. You _could_ try to recondition it, I guess... Heck, I even made a DB2 out of bent aluminum rod, with 1x3" fencing for the reflector screen and it works pretty well with the stronger signals that we have here, although not as well as a factory-made antenna.



			
				chrisasst said:
			
		

> Also I do have Aluminum siding so I may be fighting a loosing battle with an inside antenna then right? Can a DB2 be put outside?


 Any of the DB antennas are designed to be used outside. Several of your strongest stations are up toward Syracuse in the same general area, so you may be able to get a good basic selection without a rotor. For indoors, you may be able to place the antenna in a window that faces toward the cluster of stations, or maybe the siding won't be an issue. Not sure if you have a second story, but an upstairs window facing the stations would be great. An attic install will lose some signal through roofing materials, but it may work. Indoors is always easier, no lightning worries, not subject to weather, but the signal is better with steel in the air.
You'll just have to try some stuff to see what. Or maybe you have a friend or neighbor in the area who has tried and failed enough times to have figured out what works. :lol: Maybe there's a local internet forum to post on...



			
				chrisasst said:
			
		

> I have hdtv's that I am pretty sure have tuners in them, so I don't need a converter box correct?


Probably not, as jdemaris stated. In your manual, it will tell you if you have an ATSC (digital) tuner.

I don't know how much time you want to spend learning about this stuff, but this site has some useful info. Hard to navigate, though...
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html

There are some forums like AVS and highdefforum that may be useful.

These guys are ate up with this stuff! :lol: Good info.
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=3d7a7552558c6ea1f71157eb6d473685&f=81


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 21, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> chrisasst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...So I will get a DB8 and see what happens. Can I try that without a preamp thing at first? ( don't have the extra $ at this point to buy both )  I do have a second story. As of right now I am looking at 30' ( maybe more)  above ground.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 21, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> ...So I will get a DB8 and see what happens. Can I try that without a preamp thing at first? ( don't have the extra $ at this point to buy both )  I do have a second story. As of right now I am looking at 30' ( maybe more)  above ground.



If you don't use an amp, you might get nothing.  Also note that with the DB8, you are not going to get any of your VHF channels.  

For example.  On the hill behind my house -  going by TV Fool - the three strongest channels are rated as 28 NM, 7.7 NM and 5.8 NM and all three are VHF.  The next three are minus 4 NM, minus 7.6 NM and minus 8 NM and all are UHF.

With the largest deepest fringe VHF/UHF antennas on the market - on a 25 foot tower - with no amp - I get nothing.  Not one channel.  
When I add a 25-30 dB amp - I get over 20 channels.

Note also that with one of the tiny cheap Chinese amplified antennas for $30 - same location, I got around 12-14 channels.  

I can't say specifically for your area - but I suspect having no amp is going to be a waste of time, unless you've got a transmitter-tower 20 miles from your house.  Note that the amp has to be the mast-mounted type and NOT a line-amp.  

You can buy the AntennaCraft 10G212 amp for less then $30 if you shop around.  I have several and they've out performed the higher priced amps.   They also have certain features you won't find in the top-rated Winegards or Channel Masters.  This AntennaCraft amp has . . . and adjustable gain control that you can operate from inside the house, and an FM trap that you can also control from inside the house.  Both are great features.   Without that gain control, a powerful amp can ruin your strongest channels, if you have any.  If a signal is too strong - you lose it and see nothing.    With the gain-control - if you have a problem like that and want to watch one of your strong channels, you just turn the dial down.    The FM trap allows you to get FM radio when it's turned off.  This is the only amp I know of that has a trap you can control from inside the house.  With the Winegard and Channel Master amps - you have to take the amp apart - at the antenna - and reset an internal switch.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=8qOwTY-zLI23twez3cz9Cw&ved=0CEYQ8wIwAw#


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 21, 2011)

Where do I go to find a list of locations of transmitter-tower.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 21, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Where do I go to find a list of locations of transmitter-tower.



The TVFool signal locator will give you the direction and distance to each tower for each station - from your house. 

If you want even more info, just do a Google search for each station and you'll get the wattage and GPS coordinates.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 21, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Where do I go to find a list of locations of transmitter-tower.



The first time you try to get channel, you ought to do a full channel scan every 10 degrees and write down what you get and where.  Sometimes a transmitter that's at a compass heading of 179 degrees will refract and come to you from some direction that is totally different.  That happens a lot if there are mountain tops around.


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 21, 2011)

Can't find many reviews on AntennaCraft 10G212, but you are saying this is better than lets say this one ---> http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-AP-8700-Preamplifier-Noise-Antennas/dp/B001DFZ5EW/ref=pd_cp_e_2


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 22, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Can't find many reviews on AntennaCraft 10G212, but you are saying this is better than lets say this one ---> http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-AP-8700-Preamplifier-Noise-Antennas/dp/B001DFZ5EW/ref=pd_cp_e_2



I don't think the word "better" fits, since the word means different things to different people.

The Antennacraft 10G212 for $30 has near 30 dB of gain.

The Winegard AP8700 for $45 has less then 20 dB of gain.

The Antennacraft 10G212 has an adjustable gain control and the Winegard does not.

The Antennacraft 10G212 has an FM trap that you can control from inside the house and the Winegard does not.

So for me, there's no contest.

If you have very weak channels, an extra 5-10 dB of gain can make a huge difference in reception.  Just one unit of the old Bell Telephone measure is a lot (that's what the "B" stands for in dB).

If you have very strong channels, you need low gain.  A strong amp will ruin the signal  -and thus the reason why an ajustable gain-control is a great feature.

So what is best?  Best if probably living somewhere that has such a stong signal, all you need is rabbit ears and no amp.   But for the rest - most things are based on compromise.

A good antenna with a high gain amp and  adjustable gain-control can pick up anything available.

A good antenna with a fixed high gain amp can get the distant channels but might not be able to get the close/strong ones due to overload.

Just for the record, I suspect most installers will rate the Channel Master CM7777 amp as the best on the market.  I've tested it along side of others. It's fine but does no better in most installs then the AntennaCraft that is half the price.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 22, 2011)

Good to have a few experts around on this issue. I hate paying for cable and when the power goes out, so does the cable. I can make power with a genset but I can't make the cable work so I went and built a UHF antennae following the directions from one of the earlier mentioned sites. It works freaking great. Looks goofy though with what appears to be four bow ties of copper wire attached to a 2x6. It works so freaking well that I mounted it in the attic and "plumbed" it to my A/V panel so that I can switch to OTA TV pretty easily. 

I have no amp. I am 30-50 miles from the towers and the advice I got was to try it without an amp first since you can always add an amp later if you need it. You'll know if you need it based on the signal strength received at the TV. I didn't want an amp since I would then have to run power to the thing, pay for it, and otherwise make an investment to have it. 

The cool thing about the CM777 amp is that it has dual inputs so if you have one channel that is in a funny direction (my local fox network) you can actually use the amp to join two different antennas.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 22, 2011)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> The cool thing about the CM777 amp is that it has dual inputs so if you have one channel that is in a funny direction (my local fox network) you can actually use the amp to join two different antennas.



That's not the way the CM777 works.  It cannot be used to just join two antennas together. It has an internal switch to allow it to accept a single input, or a dual that accepts one UHF antenna and one VHF antenna.   You cannot use it to join two UHFs or two VHFs.  It bascially does the same thing that many combo antennas do (join VHF and UHF into one lead).

You can do exactly the same with any amp and a $3 coupler that joins VHF and UHF and outputs into one co-ax.

You can also use a $3 coupler to join hi VHF and low VHF. 

Also note that if you use dual antennas of the same band (UHF or VHF) and have them pointing in different directions to get different channels - you can get in a mess unless you use special filters and a combiner.  

I've got on tower with one UHF antenna and three VHF antennas, all joined and filtered and inputed into a single-imput preamp, and then run 600 feet to my house through some RG11 direct-burial coax.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 22, 2011)

Wow, 600 feet?

Fortunately for me, the one goofy station (different azimuth) is a high VHF and the rest are UHF so it would work but that's not always the case for everyone. They used to have a jointenna didn't they? To join different antennaes? The goal being to eliminate those lousy rotors.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 23, 2011)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Wow, 600 feet?
> 
> Fortunately for me, the one goofy station (different azimuth) is a high VHF and the rest are UHF so it would work but that's not always the case for everyone. They used to have a jointenna didn't they? To join different antennaes? The goal being to eliminate those lousy rotors.



Jointenna is a one-channel-specific filter incorporated into a coupler.   Using them is tricky and complicated and there is signal loss also.

Lets' say at 200 degrees you get channel 6 strong and channel 10 weak.   And at 150 degrees you get channel 6 weak and channel 10 strong.  If you install two antennas - one pointed at 200 degrees and one pointed at 150 degrees and join them with a coupler, you might get nothing - or a very bad signal.  That's because you get channel 6 twice and channel 10 twice, and those dual signals fight each other.  With a Jointenna - you buy one thats made just to receive channel 6 and you buy another just to receive channel 10.  Then the two antennas can work together - but it won't be as strong as using one antenna on a rotator.  Also, if you use the Jointennas -  you lose all the other possible channels you might have gotten.

If in a fringe area where you cannot afford any signal loss, you need either a rotator . . . or multiple antennas pointing in different directions that run directly to co-ax switch-boxes.  It can be a simple manual A/B or A/B/C box in the house, or a fancy amp/switch/controller/amp unit at the antenna site.  

You can join a low VHF to a high VHF to a UHF antenna and run all three into one line and it works pretty well.  That because you don't get muliptles of same-channels fighting each other.  

Another issue that ocurrs with some digital TVs is the inability to do multiple channel scans.   Some TVs do a scan and put the channels found into memory. When you rescan - some models will delete the first scan which can be awful.  If you use a rotator, or have mulitple antennas with a swith-box - you need the ability to do mulitple channel scans and retain the info from all of them.  Otherwise, you have to hope for the best and install the channels into tuner memory manually.


----------



## Woody Stover (Apr 23, 2011)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> chrisasst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you will get anything without an amp. The strongest station on your TVFool is WBNG CBS out of Binghampton. Unfortunately, it transmits on RF 7 (VHF) which the DB8 doesn't excel at.



			
				jdemaris said:
			
		

> adjustable gain control that you can operate from inside the house, and an FM trap that you can also control from inside the house.  Both are great features.   Without that gain control, a powerful amp can ruin your strongest channels, if you have any.


His strongest station is VHF at 12.5 NM so I don't think he's in danger of overloading the tuner with a too-strong signal. Probably can run full gain from the amp and not need adjustable gain. I run a Winegard 8275, almost 30 db gain, my strongest station is 61 NM and I still don't overload the tuner. Granted, I use a DB2 which has less gain than a DB8. And tuners in different TVs have varying sensitivity...
Looking at his FMFool, it doesn't appear that he should need an FM trap... 



			
				jdemaris said:
			
		

> chrisasst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To get the chart of your stations that jdemaris posted, first type in your address and get the google map, then look above the right upper corner of the map and hit the button that says "Make Radar Plot."
Another thing you can do to visualize where the stations are is to look below the google map and check-mark the square that is labeled in bold print "Show lines pointing to each transmitter."
When I punch in your address, the marker is place in the middle of a field. If you get the hybrid view, you can hold down the left-click and drag the cursor to the exact location of the antenna in your house. Don't forget to put in 30' for the antenna height, as this appears to make a difference in your location. Post a screen shot like jdemaris did, or just copy and paste the numbers here. That might help us.



			
				chrisasst said:
			
		

> Can't find many reviews on AntennaCraft 10G212, but you are saying this is better than lets say this one ---> http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-AP-8700-Preamplifier-Noise-Antennas/dp/B001DFZ5EW/ref=pd_cp_e_2


I have the AP8700 and the AP8275. As jdemaris pointed out, the AP8275 is more powerful with almost 30 db gain. The 10G212 has a noise figure of 3.5 db at UHF. For $12 more, the AP8275 has a noise figure of 2.8 db. The CM7777 (at $60) has a noise figure of 2.0. I haven't had much experience trying to get weak signals but if I was in your situation, I would be going for the preamp that would give me the greatest chance of success/the most channels. I understand that cost is a consideration here. As Highbeam said, you _can_ build these antennas. I built a DB2. He built a DB4, which is harder to do. A DB8 would be harder yet. To get a homemade antenna to perform best, you need to be very accurate in your construction regarding the phasing lines, reflector spacing etc. If you are handy, and meticulous, you might be able to pull it off.

Or you could sell off left-over firewood and get a DB8 and CM7777. :coolgrin:


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 23, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> the AP8275 is more powerful with almost 30 db gain. The 10G212 has a noise figure of 3.5 db at UHF. For $12 more, the AP8275 has a noise figure of 2.8 db. The CM7777 (at $60) has a noise figure of 2.0. :



I don't buy into the popular belief that an amp must be low-noise, or ultra-low-noise to get best reception.   Yes, it sounds good in theory when you read specs on low-noise transistors, articles on noise-rejection theory with digital tuners, etc.

What counts is what actually happens when you use them.

One big problem with "reviews" or anecdotal reports is that every situatiion is different.  When somebody reports great success, it's hard to know how much is based on a specific TV tuner, type of antenna, quality of the install, the specific signal quality in that specific area, type of co-ax used and dB loss, etc.

That being said, I can speak for what I have actually observered.  I've done five "studies", tests, and installs.  Two in northern Michigan just below the Mac bridge, one in Hamilton Co., New  York Adirondacks, one in the woods on the Tug Hill Plateau 20 miles from Watertown, NY  and . . . one big one in central New York, Otsego County.

The one here in Otsego County is as thus. My house is in the side of mountain and in the woods with no reception possible.  I have 60 acres of woods,  hill-tops and valley views in different parts of my land.  I did a signal searh all over the 60 acres, scanning in all directlions and over a dozen different locations.  I mapped it all out and then installed three separate  antenna sites.   One is 600 feet from my house, one is 350 feet, and one is 200 feet.  There are seven antennas installed, in total, with four LNAs (pre-amps), several line-amps to off-set line-loss, and two rotators.   In the house we have three-position co-ax switch boxes.  We do  not have a clear shot to any transmitter anywhere.  All the signals we get "bounce" and "refract" to get here, most from 50-60 miles away.  

My most important test with various amps was with the weakest channels. The ones that only work now and then.  Here that means channel 26 that shows as channel 10 when watching, and channel 50 that shows as channel 55 when watching.   Channel 26 shows as a negative 11 NM in strength (with TV Fool) and is 45 miles from here with many mountaintops in the way (at 101 magnetic degrees).   Channel 50 shows as a negative 25 NM in strenght and is also 45 miles away at 59 degrees magnetic.

Note that neither comes from the direction "as the crow flies) to the transmitter.

I tested  a dozen of the best-rated antennas on the market, and also switched back and forth with five different amps that did the best. Here they are.  Note that the cheapest $27 amp from AntennaCraft always did as good as all the rest and sometimes a little bit better even though it has the highest  noise rating.  It beat the amp I paid over $300 for, with ultra-low noise from England.

I used the Winegard AP-8275 Chromstat, the Channel Master CM7777 Titan II,  Antenna Craft, Radio Shack, and Research Communications 

Channel Master CM7777  - $60, made in China, 23 dB gain VHF and 26 dB gain UHF,  2.8 dB noise VHF and 2 dB noise UHF.
                                      FM trap dip-switch is inside the amp. Cannot be switch from inside the house. Gain is not adjustable. 

Winegard AP-8275 - $38, made in China, 29 dB gainVHF and 28 dB gain UHF,  2.9 dB  noise VHF and 2.8 dB noise UHF. FM trap 
                                      cannot be switched from inside the house. Gain is not adjustable.

Antenna Craft 10G-212 - $27, made in Taiwan or China, 30 dB gain for VHf and UHF,  4 dB noise VHF and 3.5 dB noise UHF. 
                                    This amp  has a switchable FM trap on the power-supply in the house. It also has an adjustable 
                                     gain-control also in the house. 

RadioShack 15-2507 - $52, made in Taiwan or China,  30 dB gain for VHf and UHF, 4 dB noise VHF and 3.5 dB noise UHF. 
                                    This amp  has a switchable FM trap on the power-supply in the house. It also has an adjustable 
                                     gain-control also in the house. This is just a re-labeled AntennaCraft amp.


Research Communications 9253 Ultra-low noise - $330, made in Great Britain, 23 dB gain UHF with only .6 a dB  noise.


----------



## Woody Stover (Apr 23, 2011)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> Woody Stover said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True dat. I've seen from messing with the coverter boxes that the tuner makes a big difference. Tuner sensitivity is an afterthought to TV manufacturers, since most people have cable or satellite and sensitivity is a non-issue for them.




			
				jdemaris said:
			
		

> My house is in the side of mountain and in the woods with no reception possible.  I have 60 acres of woods,  hill-tops and valley views in different parts of my land.  I did a signal searh all over the 60 acres, scanning in all directlions and over a dozen different locations.  I mapped it all out and then installed three separate  antenna sites.   One is 600 feet from my house, one is 350 feet, and one is 200 feet.  There are seven antennas installed, in total, with four LNAs (pre-amps), several line-amps to off-set line-loss, and two rotators. Channel 26 shows as a negative 11 NM in strength (with TV Fool) and is 45 miles from here with many mountaintops in the way (at 101 magnetic degrees).   Channel 50 shows as a negative 25 NM in strenght and is also 45 miles away at 59 degrees magnetic.


Awesome install, and impressive results!
As I said, the TVFool numbers are for outside antennas and don't take into account some of these factors you've mentioned.
Since chrisasst wants to keep the cost as low as possible, it would benefit him to have the option to return stuff that doesn't work in his location.


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 27, 2011)

What is the best cable to use to connect an antenna to tv, I have read an RG 6, is this correct?


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 27, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> What is the best cable to use to connect an antenna to tv, I have read an RG 6, is this correct?



There is no "best."  It's just a matter of how long the distance is . . from the antenna to the TV set. You then calculate signal loss and decide what will work best.  RG59 is the cheapest and also has the most loss per foot.  RG6 has less loss, and RG11 have less loss then RG6.   If your run is 50 feet or less, it's not going to matter. If more, using better cable instead of worse is good insurance.

Even with RG11, if the run is extremely long  - you've got to use line amplifiers to off-set dB loss.  I've got antennas 600 feet from my house and I had to use RG11 with a 25 dB lineamp mid-way.

The best "bang for the buck" is usually RG6 with a copper-clad center conductor.  The copper-coated steel conduction has less signal loss then when pure copper is used.


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 27, 2011)

will it make a difference if there are 2 types. The amp has rg 59 and my long run is rg 6.  I am on top of my roof and I can't get anything. Wondering if I am doing something wrong.
take that back, just got 2 digital channels,  43.1 ( mytv) 43.2 ( cooltv)
).


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 27, 2011)

Isn't there also RG-6u cable? I bought a big spool of that and used it to make home runs from each house outlet to my media center junction box. Is the RG6u better or worse than plain RG6.

When aiming your antenna remember there is a difference between true north and magnetic north.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 27, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> will it make a difference if there are 2 types. The amp has rg 59 and my long run is rg 6.  I am on top of my roof and I can't get anything. Wondering if I am doing something wrong.
> take that back, just got 2 digital channels,  43.1 ( mytv) 43.2 ( cooltv)
> ).



Now adays RG6 and RG6/U mean the same thing.  RG6 is an old military standard.  Anybody can stick a "U" to their cable to look more modern. Loss is loss and you can mix cable types without any added problems.

Regardless if RG59, RG59U, RG6, RG6U, RG11, RG11/U - they all differ by brand, model #, type of insulation, type of center-conductor, etc.  Besids the signal loss ratings, some versions are made for damp condtions and direct burial and some are made stronger for being strung through the air.

Loss depends on what specific freguency you are using. The same cable with have different loss with VHF low,, VHF high, and UHF.

Here's how it goes, in general. Less loss with VHF and more loss with UHF. A copper-clad steel center conductor will have less loss then soild copper with TV frenquencies.

This is for a fifty foot run of co-ax:

Channel 2 - RG59  .94 dB loss,  RG6 .75 dB loss, RG11 .18 dB loss
Channel 13 -  RG59  1.8 dB loss,  RG6 1.44 dB loss, RG11 .9 dB loss
Channel 15 - RG59  2.65 dB loss,  RG6  2.14 dB loss, RG11  1.35 dB loss
Channel 24 - RG59  3.1 dB loss,  RG6  2.6 dB loss, RG11  1.6 dB loss


Common TV frequencies. Note the big jump between VFHF low and high, since FM radio is stuck in-between.
VHF low-band: Channel 2 is 55 Mhz, 6 is 83 Mhz, 
VHF high-band: Channel 7 is 175 Mhz,  13 is 211 Mhz
UHF: Channel 14 is 471 Mhz, 24 is 531 Mhz, 50 is 686 Mhz


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 27, 2011)

So here is something interesting... just for the heck of it I took the antenna and stuck the pole in the ground out in front of my house.  I did a search and came back with 14 channels.  A few of them aren't coming in. ( 24's) I am getting 2 fox stations, a country music station ( can't remember #) My local channel 3 ( wstm) comes and goes and is scrambled a little. Really wish it would come in. watch alot of tv on that channel.  I tried different locations, but can only find one spot that comes in good with all the channels. I currently have a 50' rg6 hooked up. Not sure why I am getting more channels stuck in the ground then I did on my roof.  

I assume 2 antennas can be hooked together correct? How do I do this?


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 27, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> So here is something interesting... just for the heck of it I took the antenna and stuck the pole in the ground out in front of my house.  I did a search and came back with 14 channels.  A few of them aren't coming in. ( 24's) I am getting 2 fox stations, a country music station ( can't remember #) My local channel 3 ( wstm) comes and goes and is scrambled a little. Really wish it would come in. watch alot of tv on that channel.  I tried different locations, but can only find one spot that comes in good with all the channels. I currently have a 50' rg6 hooked up. Not sure why I am getting more channels stuck in the ground then I did on my roof.
> 
> I assume 2 antennas can be hooked together correct? How do I do this?



Signals can bounce all over, so it's not usual to find better signals on the ground then higher up in some areas.

Yes antennas can be joined - but the way you do it differs depending on what they are, and why you're doing it.

If you want to join antennas made for different bands - like a low VHf to a high VHF or either to a UHF- you need a special combiner made just for that purpose. Only costs around $5.

If you want to join to identical antennas pointing in the exact same location, any common diplexer will work ($3-$4). That's called "gangng" or "stacking."

If you want to join antennas of the same band but each pointing in a different location - it gets more complicated.  In many cases you must have a channel filter on each - usually called a "Jointenna." The reason it, you might get signals from the same channels on both antennas - and that will weaken the signal.


----------



## Woody Stover (Apr 28, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> I took the antenna and stuck the pole in the ground out in front of my house.  I did a search and came back with 14 channels.  A few of them aren't coming in. ( 24's) I am getting 2 fox stations, a country music station ( can't remember #) My local channel 3 ( wstm) comes and goes and is scrambled a little. Really wish it would come in.
> I assume 2 antennas can be hooked together correct? How do I do this?


I assume you're using the original antenna that you had on the roof. Can you post a closeup pic of the antenna? How did the connections look? It has a balun attached to the antenna, then your coax connects to the balun, correct? Which way did you point the antenna?


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 28, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> chrisasst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I bought a DB8.  I have a "chicken coupe" up in my field, wide open sapce all around it,  that I am going to try to put the antenna on next. However I will have to use a 100' cable so that will affect the signal some.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 28, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> No I bought a DB8.  I have a "chicken coupe" up in my field, wide open sapce all around it,  that I am going to try to put the antenna on next. However I will have to use a 100' cable so that will affect the signal some.



For 100 feet you need at least RG6, and RG11 is a even a little better. If the run is 100 feet point to point, then I assume you're going to have 120 feet in total.

Best test for any loss is this.   Bring a TV up there by the antenna and see how many channels you get.  It's easy to do. If you don't have a 12 volt TV, just bring a regular TV, 12 volt battery, and an inverter.  With a cheap inverter, you can power the TV and an antenna-mounted amp at the site.  Once you scan all the directions and know what you get, then run the cable to the house and test again - in the house.  Obviously, if you still get all your channels you are fine.  If not, you'll need a line-amp.   You are going to lose 2 dB to 6 dB with 100 ft. of RG6.  Then, in your house - if you have any spitters so you can use more then one TV, you're going to lose another 6-7 dB at each spittler.  

The DB8 is only designed to work on UHF, channels 14 - 69.  It won't get any VHF channels unless they are very strong.

Channel 14 will lose around 7.4 dB with 100 feet of RG6.
Channel 50 will lose around 9.1 dB with 100 feet of RG6.

The thing you don't know is  how much signal can you lose and still have your TV work? That's why doing a test first at the antenna is important. Otherwise, you'll never know for sure.  A good 25-30 dB "pre-amp" on the antenna will make up for a lot of signal loss with a long cable run.

Sometimes the splitter inside the house causes enough loss to lose channels.  A three-output spiltter (so you hook in three TVs) will have 7 dB to 11 dB loss - which is a lot.   The easy fix is to use a cheap line amp with a separate splitter - OR- an amplified splitter that has all in one unit.

SP Winegard 2054 four-connector splitter: Splitter Loss: 40-950 MHz 7.5 dB - 11.0 dB .  Cost $6

Eagle-Aspen distribution amp with 25 dB gain - $12

Channel Master "combo" CM3410 distribution amp/splitter with two outputs, 15 dB gain - $15.  

If you are going to bury your co-ax, buy direct-burial grade RG6 or RG11. It doesn't add much to the price.  I usually use dual siamese cable when burying. That way I've got an "extra" underground in case I need it later.


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 28, 2011)

well I couldn't get on top of the "chicken coupe" ( roof caving in) But there used to be a big satellite in front of it. The pole is still there so I stuck the antenna in it and didn't get any better or more channels in that location than I did in front of my house.  

Can I have 2 amplifiers connected ( mast mount and a line ) or will that interfer?  I do have the 30 amp you recommended on the mast.
I think at some point I am going to have to try 2 antennas.
What is a good VHF antenna? 
According to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ the channel 3 (wstm) I am trying to get is UHF. I looked that one up though and apparently alot of people can't get  that channel since they switched.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 28, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> well I couldn't get on top of the "chicken coupe" ( roof caving in) But there used to be a big satellite in front of it. The pole is still Can I have 2 amplifiers connected ( mast mount and a line ) or will that interfer?  I do have the 30 amp you recommended on the mast.
> I think at some point I am going to have to try 2 antennas.
> What is a good VHF antenna?
> According to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ the channel 3 (wstm) I am trying to get is UHF. I looked that one up though and apparently alot of people can't get  that channel since they switched.



Yes, two amps work fine.

The absolute best VHF antennas are separate units.  One just for VHF low, and the other for VHF high.   There is a huge gap between channel 6 and channel 7 - although the numbers make it sound like just one sequential step. That huge gap inbetween 6 and 7 is where FM radio is.

Channels 2 - 6 use a low-band VHF antenna. Winegard YA-6260 for $50 or Antenna Craft YA-1026 (hard to find).
Channels 7-13 use a high-band VHF antenna.  One of the best is the Antenna Craft Y10-7-13.  $40 or a Winegard YA-1713 for $48.

You can join them with a $3 low-VHF/high-VHF coupler.   You can also buy another $3 coupler that will join that to a UHF antenna so you can use all three with just one amp and coax.

You can also buy a combo low-high VHF antenna that can do near as well. The best ever made was the Wade VIP 307 (very hard to find).

And you can also  buy a combo antenna with low VHF, high VHF and all the UHF combined.  Winegard HD8200 is the best on the market. Channel Master Crossfire is near the same. These are their advertised gain-specs per channel.

Winegard HD8200- Gain: Chan/dB, 2 - 7 dB, 4 - 7.7 dB,  6 - 6.4, 7 - 10.4, 9 - 12.6, 11-11 dB, 13-12, 14 - 14.2 dB, 32 - 13.7,  50 - 12.2 dB, and 69 - 13 dB. 

Channel Master Crossfire 3671 -  Chan/dB, 2 - 4.9 dB, 4 - 5 dB,  6 - 6.2, 7 - 11, 9 - 11, 11-10.9 dB, 13-9.6, 14 - 7.5 dB, 32 - 9.8,  50 - 12.5 dB 

If you don't want to mess with three different antennas get the three TV bands, you're better off just buying something like the Winegard HD8200.  Has all three combined and does a pretty good job on all channels. It's big though. It measures 33" X 110" X 168.25"   Has 34 VHF and 34 UHF elements.


----------



## flyingcow (Apr 28, 2011)

Since you're talking amps....I have one inline amp for my antenna, installed before the splitter. I am on the very edge of digital reception. In the 60ish mile range. I'm up pretty high. I have 2 TV's. Small one for bedroom. Always get clear a picture. But my down stairs one in sketchy at times. But it's a big 32 inch flat screen something or other. Bigger unit anyways. If i put an inline booster for just that TV, will it help? Anytime the big TV won't come in, you use the upstairs one and it's clear as a bell. I assumed the bigger TV needed a boost.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 28, 2011)

When he says it's big he means it's BIG. This bugger is 10 feet wide and 14 feet long. All crazy looking too. Compared to your nice and neat DB8 the huge 8200 style antennas are just way too big. Wife will think you're trying to talk to aliens.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 28, 2011)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> When he says it's big he means it's BIG. This bugger is 10 feet wide and 14 feet long. All crazy looking too. Compared to your nice and neat DB8 the huge 8200 style antennas are just way too big. Wife will think you're trying to talk to aliens.



DB8 is a UHF only antenna  and that's why it's so small.   VHF low-band needs a huge antenna in a fringe area, and VHF high-band somewhat smaller but still bigger then UHF. The higher the frequency, the smaller the antenna.

There is no other way to do it in a rural area if you want over-the-air reception. HD8200 is  basically three antennas incorporated onto one beam.  

The HD8200 doesn't look all that big once it's up on top of building somewhere.  My old Wade VHF antenna is bigger at 16.5 feet long.
I've got two HD8200s and my wife isn't freaked out at all.  She likes not having a satellite-TV bill every month. 

I've got two of the 8200s. One on an "extra" house I have in nothern michigan. The other here at home on top of my barn.

The only other way to get equal reception is with 3 or 4 separate antennas (which I also have at a different spot).


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 28, 2011)

flyingcow said:
			
		

> Since you're talking amps....I have one inline amp for my antenna, installed before the splitter. I am on the very edge of digital reception. In the 60ish mile range. I'm up pretty high. I have 2 TV's. Small one for bedroom. Always get clear a picture. But my down stairs one in sketchy at times. But it's a big 32 inch flat screen something or other. Bigger unit anyways. If i put an inline booster for just that TV, will it help? Anytime the big TV won't come in, you use the upstairs one and it's clear as a bell. I assumed the bigger TV needed a boost.



You won't know until you try.  I doubt it has anything to do with the size of the TV.  The TV tuner chip yes, or maybe more loss in one line.   I had a similar situation.  Our upstairs TV got two channels less then the one downstairs.  The one upstairs was a 32" Sansui.  I later replaced it with a 42" RCA and now it gets those two missing channels plus an extra I could never get downstairs.  The "extra" is a second channel 7.  The older TV downstairs will only lock into the strongest channel 7 and reject the other. This new TV can be forced to lock into either (one at a time of course). One channel 7 comes from 50 miles away in Binghamton, and the other channel 7 from  60 mles away in the opposite direction from Albany.


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 28, 2011)

So If I get a smaller vhf antenna, you are saying it won't work?  
Has anybody tried any radio shack ones? 
I saw this one AntennacraftÂ® HBU22 High-VHF/UHF Antenna, or AntennacraftÂ® HBU33 High-VHF/UHF Antenna
There were some cheaper ones too that had good reviews, but...

this one is from amazon   http://www.amazon.com/Boom-HBU-Ante..._1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304030066&sr=1-1-catcorr


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 28, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> So If I get a smaller vhf antenna, you are saying it won't work?
> Has anybody tried any radio shack ones?
> I saw this one AntennacraftÂ® HBU22 High-VHF/UHF Antenna, or AntennacraftÂ® HBU33 High-VHF/UHF Antenna
> There were some cheaper ones too that had good reviews, but...



No, I'm not saying a smaller one won't work. I have no way of knowing.  A smaller antenna will get less signal strength.  If you are in a fringe area, 50-60 miles from the transmitter a bigger antenna can make the difference, If you're not so far, it might not matter. Thus the reason why people who live 10 miles from big cities do fine with rabbit ears.   Unlike the old analog TV, digital is ALL or  NOTHING.  No weak "snowy" signal will show up with an inferior antenna. Instead of snow, you get nothing.

Reviews written by average consumers of antennas are pretty much meaningless.   Mainly because they are so anecdotal.   

As far as Radio Shack goes, they don't make anything, they resell.  Some very good and some not at all.
Last year I picked up a Radio Shack #15-264.  It'a combo VHF/UHF and I bought it for my in-laws in northern Michigan. I installed it in their attic, inside the house. I tested it alongside the big Winegard HD8200, and it works near as well.  Works fine for them and they still have it.  That Radio Shack antenna also had suprisingly high quality construction.  As far as I can tell, the Radio Shack # 15-264 is actually a reboxed Anenna Craft model HD 850.  Has a 85" long boom. 

If you only want UHF, you can stay fairly small. But, if you've got any VHF channels, there is no way around it.  If you are 50-60 miles away, a 6-7 foot long antenna is the minimum that might work for you.

Here's the description for that Radio Shack/Antenna Craft antenna:

Model: 15-264 Catalog #: 15-264 IS the antenna I installed (Item 5855482). Receive and enjoy. This antenna is ideal for receiving over-the-air HDTV channels in most suburban or rural areas. It has a high VHF (ch. 7-13) range of 70 miles and a UHF (ch. 14-69) range of 60 miles. The 85" boom length, 31-element antenna is built with high-tensile strength aluminum for long life. It has fold-open elements for instant assembly and its air-insulated multiple-drive is state of the art. This antenna has a strong square boom with "no-tilt' clamp. â€¢ Be ready for the digital transition with this HDTV antenna â€¢ Receives high-band VHF (ch. 7-13, 70 mile range) and UHF (ch. 14-69, 60 mile range)* â€¢ Made of high-tensile stength aluminum for long life; Snap open elements for easy set-up What's in the box â€¢ RadioShackÂ® 85" antenna â€¢ 300 to 75 ohm transformer â€¢ Mast mouting hardware;.


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 29, 2011)

Model: 15-264 Catalog #: 15-264  <----- which one is this? I can't find it by those # 's

Can I use a splitter in reverse as a combiner? I have read some have had success and some don't.


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 29, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Model: 15-264 Catalog #: 15-264  <----- which one is this? I can't find it by those # 's
> 
> Can I use a splitter in reverse as a combiner? I have read some have had success and some don't.



A splitter IS a combiner, there is no difference.  But . . . what do you want to combine?  If you don't do it right, you can destroy the signal/

If you want to combine a VHF to a UHF - you need a special VHF-UHF combiner.
If you want to combine low VHF to high VHf - you need a special low-to-high combiner.
If you want to joint two same-band antennas - then any splittler wll work - but . . . if the any of a channel signal is coming in on both antennas - it will ruin the signal. That is because they don't come in at exactly the same time and cancel each other out. That is why you need channel filters like Jointenna that are made specific for blocking a certain channel.

About the only way you can comine two same-band antennas with a common splitter is - if they are pointed in different directions and NO duplicate signals are being received - OR - if both antennas are pointing in exactly the same direction.   Using dual antennas pointed in the same direction and joined with a common splitter is called "stacking"  or 'ganging." When done right, it gains signal strength.  "Stacking"  is when the two antennas over mounted on a pole, one above the other.  "Ganging" is when the two antennas are side-by-side.   I have a pair of UHF antennas ganged and joined with a splitter for one very weak channel.
I attached a photo.   

15-274 is the Radio Shack cataglog number.  Not the model of the antenna. 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3739594


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 30, 2011)

What is the proper way to ground an antenna. I have a grounding rod in the ground that was used for the old antenna I have, can I just run a wire down to that?


----------



## chrisasst (Apr 30, 2011)

What is the proper way to ground an antenna. I have a grounding rod in the ground that was used for the old antenna I have, can I just run a wire down to that?


----------



## jdemaris (Apr 30, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> What is the proper way to ground an antenna. I have a grounding rod in the ground that was used for the old antenna I have, can I just run a wire down to that?



A single ground rod is fine at  the antenna site if too far to tie into the household ground.  If the antenna is mounted to a metal mast, just hook the ground-wire to the steel mast.  You don't want a cooper ground wire bolted to the aluminum mast of the antenna (that can cause corrosion problems).    Somewhere along the way, the outside wire sheaf on the coax gets grounded also. That can be done at antenna, at the house, or both.   It's usually done where you've got a coupler or splittler since either will have a ground lug on it.  If you really want to thorough, you can also intall a coax fuse   It just screws into the coax.  It' there to prevent damage to TV sets in case the antenna gets hit by lightning. Cost around $5.


----------



## Woody Stover (May 4, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> So If I get a smaller vhf antenna,


It looks like the only vhf station you may need is the CBS in Binghampton, if you can't get the weaker uhf CBS (WTHV) to the North. Have you had any luck getting that one?


----------



## chrisasst (May 4, 2011)

Woody Stover said:
			
		

> chrisasst said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am actually getting the big antenna delivered today ( fedex  :wow:  :wow:  ) so I probably wont get it until late today. Just don't know where or how I am going to put it.  Radio shack says it will pick up all of bighamton and syracuse stations. ( Antennacraft C490 ) So I will see...


----------



## jdemaris (May 4, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> Woody Stover said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you don't have a roof to mount on, you can stick a pressure-treated 6" X 6" post in the ground and then mount a steel mast to it. If  you put that antenna higher then 15' you'd better attach some support-cables. 

How are you going to handle getting the channels that come from at least two and maybe three totally different directions? South will get you four and maybe five channels with a good amp.  If you point north, you might get lucky and get signal from two different towers.  One is due north and one more north-northeast. If you between them at 10 degrees, you might get them all.

You need either a rotator, or two antennas.   For myself, I'd mount two atennas. One pointed due south, and the other pointed due north.  A second antenna will be cheaper then buying a rotator.   I also think you'll find that many consumer-grade rotators do not work when temps get down to zero or below. I have two new ones and neither work ast temps below 10 degrees F.

You're lucky if you have a Radio Shack store with somebody that actually knows someting about  antennas.  Most I've gone to have employees that know nothing.

If you point at 179 degrees magnetic (south):
Channel 7 - CBS,  virtual channel 12.1, WBNG-DT  +12 Nm
Channel 8 Fox 40, virtual channel 40.1, WICZ-DT  -2 Nm
Channel 42 - PBS, virtual channel 46.1, WSKG-DT -11.4 Nm
Channel 34 ABC, virtual channel 34.1, WIVT  -16 Nm
Channel 11- NBC (maybe - weak) virtual channel 28.1, WBRE -28 Nm

If you point 3 degrees magnetic (north):
Channel 19 - Fox, WNYS-DT, virtual channel 68.1  +7.6 Nm
Channel 44 - MyN, WNYS-DT. virtual channel 43.1  +1.5 Nm

If you point 16-17 degrees magnetic (north-northeast):
Channel 24 - NBC, virtual channel 3.1. WSTM-DT  +.5 Nm
Channel 25 - PBS, virtual channel 2.1. WCNY-DT    -3.1 Nm
Channel 47 - CBS, virtual channel 5.1, WTVH-DT  -6.1 Nm

WNYS, WSTM, WTVH - Lafayette, NY 58725 Transmitter coords 42Â°52â€²50â€³N 76Â°12â€²0â€³W

WCNY Syracuse area 53734 Transmitter coords 42Â°56â€²42â€³N 76Â°7â€²7â€³W

WBNG Utica area coords 42Â°3â€²31â€³N 75Â°57â€²6â€³Wï»¿ / ï»¿42.05861Â°N 75.95167Â°W

WICZ Binghamton area coords 42Â°3â€²23â€³N 75Â°56â€²38.7â€³Wï»¿ / ï»¿42.05639Â°N 75.944083Â°W

WSKG Binghamton area coords - 
42Â°3â€²40â€³N 75Â°56â€²45â€³Wï»¿ / ï»¿42.06111Â°N 75.94583Â°Wï»¿ / 42.06111; -75.94583

WIVT Binghamton area coords 42Â°3â€²39.5â€³N 75Â°56â€²36â€³W

WBRE  -NE Pennsylvania  coords coordinates 41Â°10â€²58â€³N 75Â°52â€²26â€³W


----------



## chrisasst (May 4, 2011)

That is what I am trying to figure out right now.  In the location I have it right now, the tv picked up 15 channels. ( 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 5.1, 12.1, 12.2, 24.1, 24.2, 24.3, 24.4, 43.1, 52.1, 68.1, 68.2, one other that I forgot)
You are right, if I have it pointed in one direction, I can get those all good except 3.1, 3.2, 3.3.  If I turn it a very smidgen to the north, the 3's come in but I loose 5.1, 12.1 completely the 24's are hit and miss and the others are decent. So I am kind of weighing what I usually watch. Usually we watch 3.1( nbc)  more than 12.1 (cbs ) I get the fox channels ( so I can watch NASCAR half the season) 
But it would be nice to get them all though.  I was able to *somewhat* pick up the 3.1,3.2,3.3 with the DB8. So I don't know if I can connect the 2 antennas together and be able to pick those up while moving the big antenna back south to pick up the others or not. Which I am still confused on how to do that. I need to "gang" them together with a splitter if I put them in the same area correct?  Still need to ground it also. and if I leave it in this location, I think I will have to bury the cable, I can do that right or no? 
Also right now I have 150' of cable hooked up. Do you suggest a good line amplifier? Radio shack has one for $15.00, not sure if it is good or not.

Question ---- how do I know what direction to point, there has to be a device right?
You guys have been super helpful, this is all new to me. I am sure you are sick of me asking some of the same questions over again, I apologize and I thank you..


Here is a picture...


----------



## jdemaris (May 4, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> . . . it would be nice to get them all though.
> 
> So I don't know if I can connect the 2 antennas together and be able to pick those up while moving the big antenna back south to pick up the others or not.
> 
> ...



I'll try to answer some of your questions.

First - keep in mind that the new "antenna" you just bought is actually three antennas, NOT one antenna.

Joining antennas works in many types of situations but not YOUR'S.   Two or three different band antennas can be joined easily (e.g. a VHF low to a VHF high to a UHF).   Two same band antennas can be joined easily when the antennas are identical and pointed in the exact  same direction (stacking or ganging).  The new AntennaCraft unit just got has three bands joined together already

It's a VHF low band, VHF high band and a UHF - all three on one beam and joined together.  

There is no good way I know of to join a fourth UHF (your DB8) antenna to the three you aleady have, without screwing things up. The only way to do that would  be to stick a one-channel filter on it and then use a coupler.  And that would only work if the main big antenna is not getting that channel signal at all.  If there is just one channel you really want bad, yes it can be done with a filtered-coupler (Jointenna). 

Your question about burying coax? If you want it to last you ought to buy direct- burial coax that is glue-impregnated and made for underground use.  Otherwise, you need to spend $20-$30, go to Home Depot, and get some PVC conduit.  Put regular grade coax in the conduit and then bury it, and it will last fine.

About testing for signals . . .    In the good old days of analog, all you had to do is hook the TV to the antenna and spin it around until you found the best signal. If off, the picture would be snowy and  clear up and you pointed better.  

With digitial? It's all or nothing.  You need to have a notebook and a pen. Then hook a TV to the antenna. Then move it around full circle, maybe 20 degrees at a time and do a full channel scan at each position.  That will be 18 separate channel scans.  That is the only way you're going to know what works and where.  Also note that your TV has a signal-quality meter.  Since digital is all-or-nothing - a picture either looks great, or it's not there at all.  So, the only way you can tell when moving the antenna improves things - is  by reading the signal-quality meter on the TV.  Note that the converter boxes also have the meters. 

The first time you do a full scan, it will take a little time. But, you only need to do it once and then you'll know. If you don't do it, you'll be guessing forever.

Also note:  You don't always know for sure what direction your antenna is getting signals.  Just because you have the front of the antenna pointed north, it still may pick up some channels from the south - coming in  backwards into the antenna.  They won't be as strong though.   This is another reason why you need to do a full-circle scan and also -write down signal-quality readings at various points for the channels you care about.

The channels you just mentioned getting are supposed to be as thus IF they are coming to you in a straight line and not bouncing off a a mountain top somewhere.  But since we don't know if they're coming into the front or back of your antenna, you need to do that full scan.  Also remember that the channel #s you citied are not the real channel/frequency numbers. They are the make-believe "virtual" channel numbers.  

3.1, 3.2, 3.3 (all on actual UHF channel 24) - 16 degrees magnetic
5.1 - (all on actual UHF channel 47) 17 degrees magnetic
12.1, 12.2  (all on actual VHF channel 7)- 179 degrees magnetic
24.1, 24.2, 24.3, 24.4 (UHF channel 25) - 16 degrees magnetic
43.1 (all on actual UHF channel 44) - 3 degrees magnetic
68.1 (all on actual UHF channel 19) - 3 degrees magnetic

In your situation . . . if it was me, I'd probably mount the DB8 facing the other direction.  Then I'd use two amps and two separate runs of coax into the house - all hooked to a $5 co-ax A/B switch box.   Also note you can buy dual-lead siamese coax if you prefer.     In one of my houses I have three separate antenna systems coming into the house with a three-way switch-box (A/B/C). Very simple to hook up and very little to go wrong.

Your other option is to just use the new antenna you've got that already is VHF low, VHF high, and UHF - and just stick a rotator up.  Like I said though, these $90 rotators don't work great in extreme cold.   THe nice thing about having a co-ax switch box instead is - the simplicity and durability.


----------



## chrisasst (May 4, 2011)

actually my TV does not have a signal-quality meter which stinks.  

Here is what I am thinking I will try. Get another amp like you said, leave the DB8 in front of my house, the other one in my back yard. Run them both to a splitter and see what happens. I just tried it without another AMP and nothing really happened. Maybe they are far enough apart so they won't interfer. The DB8 picked up all the stations I mentioned except for the two CBS channels ( 5.1, 12.1) & 12.2.  Still can't seem to get the ABC channel no matter how I move it.


----------



## jdemaris (May 4, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> actually my TV does not have a signal-quality meter which stinks.
> 
> Here is what I am thinking I will try. Get another amp like you said, leave the DB8 in front of my house, the other one in my back yard. Run them both to a splitter and see what happens. I just tried it without another AMP and nothing really happened. Maybe they are far enough apart so they won't interfer. The DB8 picked up all the stations I mentioned except for the two CBS channels ( 5.1, 12.1) & 12.2.  Still can't seem to get the ABC channel no matter how I move it.



A couple of problems with that idea.  

First - you can't have two antenna amps hooked to one splitter.  How is the power going to get to the amps?   Each amp gets it's power from a power supply inside the house  - and the co-ax center-conductor is used to carry that power to the amp.  You'd have two power supplies trying to power two amps - but you' d have that power joined at the splitter. In theory, if both amps are the same make and models, and the power supplies are exactly the same - it might work - but I wouldn't try it.  If different makes and models - the voltages and even the polarities could be different.  And some amps change polarity when you flip the FM trap "in" or "out."  What do you think would happen with one 18 volt power slupply with negative ground - got coupled to another 18 volt power supply with postive ground? Something would quickly blow out.

Second - is the mulitple signal problem.  Antennas work backwards - but not as well as frontwards.   With the DB8 and the new AntennaCraft - you'll have two same-band UHF antennas hooked to a coupler.  If any UHF channel is picked up by both antennas at the same time, it will degrade the signal.  The reason is - unless the antennas are identical and pointed in exactly the same direction - the same channel signal will reach each antenna at a slightly different time.  That tends to ruin the signal.   It will only work if both antennas "see" totally different channels and neither sees the same.


----------



## jdemaris (May 4, 2011)

[quote author="chrisasst" date="1304561231"]  

I assume you know what A/B or A/B/C coax switch boxes are, but here are some photos.  They are cheap and easy to hook up and use.  

I also included some "Jointenna" info.  The Jointenna is a couple and a one-channel filter.  If you used it on your DB8, you have to use it to get only one channel AND that channel would only work as long at the other antenna did not receive any of that same signal.   Also keep in mind that all "joiners" and "spittlers" degrade the signal -even when hooked up properly.  An A/B switch box will not degrade the signal at all.


----------



## chrisasst (May 4, 2011)

So I can have 2 amps hooked to an A/B switch without a problem. Maybe I will try this then. Will have to get another amp. 
Do you recommend adding a line amp also to my long run?


----------



## jdemaris (May 5, 2011)

chrisasst said:
			
		

> So I can have 2 amps hooked to an A/B switch without a problem. Maybe I will try this then. Will have to get another amp.
> Do you recommend adding a line amp also to my long run?



You use two separate  coax lines and two amps - along with a coax switch box .   Each amp will consist of the amp itself that mounts on the antenna and the power supply that goes in the house. On each power supply - there is an "in" and "out."   "In" connects to the coax running to the antenna.  "Out" connects to the TV or the A/B switch box.   This "out" lead does not carry any power - just the TV signal.  So, not trouble hooking it to a switch box.

Line-amps are different and self-contained. That is, amp and power supply in one unit.   I have no way of knowing if you need one.  I have several on all my runs  over 200 feet.   If you test for TV reception at the antenna, and then test in the house - and you lose channels - you can assume you need a line-amp.    Each splitter or coupler will lose 3-7 dBs.   100 feet of coax will lose another 5 dBs per 100 feet on channel 7, and 8 dBs per 100 feet on channel 50.  The higher the frequency, the more loss.

So, it comes to this.  How strong the signal is at the antenns, how much weaker it becomes when it gets to your house, and . . . if your TV can make a picture out of whatever signal it is getting.   15-20 dB loss is common for an anntenna 100 feet away.  If you stick in a 20 dB line-amp - you prevent that loss.  You can buy 20-30 dB line amps for less then $20.  A cheap investment.

Note that often much of the loss is inside the house with splitters running the signal to multiple TVs. You can buy a combo amp-spittler that works nicely.  Usually called a "distribution amplifier."


----------

