# Whitfield died?



## Bugs (Nov 4, 2017)

my auger failed, put a new one in started fire everything appeared to be working fine walked away herd a click like a fuse popping and the stove was dead.... no lights on control board. I have power to stove is there  a fuse ? Or reset ? Or did I blow my board..


----------



## JRemington (Nov 4, 2017)

I'm not familiar with the stove but there should be a fuse on the circuit board.


----------



## heat seeker (Nov 4, 2017)

Agree - there should be at least one fuse on the circuit board. Before powering the stove back up, look very carefully for wires that you may have pinched or otherwise damaged when changing the motor. I'd check the wiring for the room blower first, then everywhere else.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 5, 2017)

heat seeker said:


> Agree - there should be at least one fuse on the circuit board. Before powering the stove back up, look very carefully for wires that you may have pinched or otherwise damaged when changing the motor. I'd check the wiring for the room blower first, then everywhere else.




Thank you for your replies it appears on doing some research there should be a fuse on the bottom of the controller,
I will check that fuse and the wiring as you suggested.


----------



## JRemington (Nov 5, 2017)

Now I think about it we had a stove last year that was blowing fuses. I finally found it by unplugging the power to the low limit, high limit and vacuum switches. I also unhooked the power to the auger. I started the stove and reconnected everything one at a time. When I connected the auger the fuse blew. It ended up a "new" auger motor had a short in it.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 5, 2017)

JRemington said:


> Now I think about it we had a stove last year that was blowing fuses. I finally found it by unplugging the power to the low limit, high limit and vacuum switches. I also unhooked the power to the auger. I started the stove and reconnected everything one at a time. When I connected the auger the fuse blew. It ended up a "new" auger motor had a short in it.



Well.. I put a new fuse in, stove powers up but now the auger runs continuously even with auger power off..


----------



## Bugs (Nov 5, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Well.. I put a new fuse in, stove powers up but now the auger runs continuously even with auger power off..



And it just blew the fuse again :-( bad new auger ?
When I first put the new auger in it all appeared to be working fine, then it blew the fuse after about 15 min. And now auger runs continuously even without turning auger on? And then blows fuse.


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 5, 2017)

A surge on your power line could have "zapped" several components on the control board. Now, you don't inform us the exact stove model and year of making, but the newer Whitfield control boards do have minimal built in surge protection. The on board surge protecting component is a varistor ( aka VDR=voltage dependent resistor ).  On this picture of a control board from a 1998 Whitfield Quest Plus you see the varistor ( red disk ) just below the mains transformer. Also, we see the main fuse at the leftmost side. The fuse is in series with the main power loop. In order to protect against overloads the fuse also has to be the very first component in the circuitry. Right after the fuse, the VDR is in parallel with the power line. This enables the VDR to shunt out any destructive high voltages. Unfortunately VDRs may turn into permanent shorts, if they have been exposed to several high voltage surges. Note: This condition will blow the fuse!
And another thing: The auger-triac on the board is most likely zapped as well, since the auger motor runs constantly.
Your control board needs some repair, but the components mentioned above are standard components available in most electronic shops.

Detailed picture of the control board in a 1998 Whitfield Quest Plus:


----------



## JRemington (Nov 5, 2017)

Do you have the stove plugged into a good surge protector? Also, do you still have the old auger motor? If you do jump power to it and see if it runs constantly. The board controls the start up cycle and some stoves will run the auger continuously for a period during startup and fill the pot and then stop for a period. During startup you don't have control of the stove. I don't know the auger cycle for that stove. Have you looked for frayed or bad wires and made sure everything is connected properly?


----------



## Bugs (Nov 5, 2017)

Thanks for the reply
The stove is an advantage ll t manufacture date of 1991.
I had just replaced the auger motor it was working for several minutes then I heard the fuse pop.
Replaced the fuse the next day plugged it in everything looked good except auger was running continuously before I even started the auger. Runs continuously with auger on or off. Has the touch pad type controller.













Controller2



__ Bugs
__ Nov 5, 2017


















Controller



__ Bugs
__ Nov 5, 2017


----------



## JRemington (Nov 5, 2017)

That's an old stove. Are you saying the auger was running with the power turned off?


----------



## Bugs (Nov 6, 2017)

JRemington said:


> That's an old stove. Are you saying the auger was running with the power turned off?



No, running with auger switch off.


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 6, 2017)

Bugs said:


> The stove is an advantage ll t manufacture date of 1991.



Ok, so it has the newer touch pad control as opposed to the older boards with rotary knobs.
But we'll have to take a closer look inside your control board in order to locate and troubleshoot the components in question.

I searched the internet for a useful picture using different terms, and I found this picture of something that could be similar to your control board.
It is from an Advantage II, but we don't know the exact year, though.

Is the component layout on your control board similar to this?







Bugs said:


> I had just replaced the auger motor it was working for several minutes then I heard the fuse pop.
> Replaced the fuse the next day plugged it in everything looked good except auger was running continuously before I even started the auger. Runs continuously with auger on or off.



This sequence of events has useful information. First we may conclude that the auger triac is fried ( = permanently shorted ), since the auger motor runs continously regardless of the toggle state of the control button.
Next conclusion is much more difficult.....we must figure out why the fuse popped and why it took several minutes before it popped.
My suspicion is still circling around the varistor ( the red disk below the transformer). In most cases, when they fail, they turn into permanent short circuits, but unstable intermediate states are possible, which could explain what happened with your stove.
Did you notice any smoke ( or smell of smoke ) from the control board in the minutes before the fuse popped?


----------



## MButkus (Nov 6, 2017)

You can get your control panel fixed by this person.  E-mail him and tell him what happened.  You would have to check that auger.  Something blew the fuse and with you just replacing the auger.. something is up.

*(Heatwave Electronics. (heatwaveelectronics@gmail.com ) 530-820-3700*


----------



## Bugs (Nov 6, 2017)

I will pull the back cover off and see if it is similar, I am concerned about the fuse blowing with the new auger though.
Just to check I plugged the old auger in and it ran continuously too. Not sure how to check the new auger for defects.
This stove has been working well for several weeks, until the auger malfunctioned.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 6, 2017)

Here is a pic, mine is blue. No apparent signs of hot spots


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 7, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Here is a pic, mine is blue.



The blue varistor on your board is a 120VAC version and it could also be from another manufacturer, but the printed circuit boards on our stoves appear to be completely similar.
Mine is a 230 VAC version, so some components are different ( transformer, fuse, relays etc. ) Mine also came with factory installed igniter, which is why there's an extra relay. Your board has an empty space there.
The auger-triac is very close to the blue varistor. On mine the auger-triac is a MAC228 A6 from Motorola ( see picture ).  Your line voltage is 120VAC, so another triac type could be used. Be sure to get the right type!
It's a bit difficult to unsolder components with more than two pins on a double sided circuit board. In this case the easiest way is to simply cut the pins with cutting pliers, and then unsolder the rest of the pins one at a time. A suction tool ( or solder wick ) is needed to clean the holes for any old tin before the new triac can be inserted and soldered. Take care not to overheat the ultrathin copper traces. This could destroy them.

Auger triac on my 1998 Quest Plus:








Bugs said:


> No apparent signs of hot spots



The varistor could be in an unstable intermediate state making short circuits, when it's in a bad mood. We just don't know. I suggest you unsolder it, and run the stove without it in the future. Instead you should buy an external surge protector. The better of these will protect your control board much more efficiently.

TrippLite IsoUltra:




To rule out any short circuits in the copper windings of the blower motors and auger motor you'll have to measure their respective copper resistances with an ohmmeter. The service manual will give you the exact details on how to do this. Link to service manual:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqla0k3x3...ntageII-T_AdvantageIII_TECH_TRAINING.pdf?dl=0

Good luck and take care. Keep us posted


----------



## MButkus (Nov 7, 2017)

My question, as a tech guy, who says the auger malfunctioned ?   Did you test the old auger ?


----------



## Bugs (Nov 7, 2017)

MButkus said:


> My question, as a tech guy, who says the auger malfunctioned ?   Did you test the old auger ?



I did not test it Per se but the motor was operating but it was not turning the gears. I could see that when it would run the armature Was  pulling out an eight inch every time it ran, when I dis-assembled the gear box I could see the small motor gear was below the drive gear. The gears all looked good (no teeth missing). It was 25 years old I just figured it was tired. Here are pictures of the viristor and triac


----------



## MButkus (Nov 7, 2017)

Sounds like what happen to my original auger.  The fiber washer on the back of the motor wore, and the motor slid back not making contact with the first gear.  It would turn the gear some times, slip others.  I just replaced the washer and it ran for another 5 years or so.

See what the guy at HeatWave says.. he fixes them all the time.  Whatever powers the auger is shorted.  You can run the new auger for some 5 min. They will get warm on straight runs. Just strange a new auger caused problems.. It somehow didn't short on something.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 8, 2017)

MButkus said:


> Sounds like what happen to my original auger.  The fiber washer on the back of the motor wore, and the motor slid back not making contact with the first gear.  It would turn the gear some times, slip others.  I just replaced the washer and it ran for another 5 years or so.
> 
> See what the guy at HeatWave says.. he fixes them all the time.  Whatever powers the auger is shorted.  You can run the new auger for some 5 min. They will get warm on straight runs. Just strange a new auger caused problems.. It somehow didn't short on something.



That’s what is happening to mine...now it sounds like it shorted my board:-( not sure in my area where I can get replacement parts but I’ll start looking.. I have a good weller soldering iron just not sure how my skill level is. I’m an extra class ham but it’s been years..since I’ve worked on radios. I may fix the old auger to have a spare. Winter is here need to get this thing fixed. I paid 50.00 for the stove 30.00 for all the stainless stove pipe plus my time cleaning and installing. So I’m still in the black. Oh ya 110.00 for new auger.


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 8, 2017)

Bugs said:


> I have a good weller soldering iron just not sure how my skill level is. I’m an extra class ham but it’s been years..since I’ve worked on radios.



This certainly is good news. I'm also a radio amateur ( call sign OZ7XRT ). Next step in troubleshooting your stove is to find out why the fuse popped, and why it took several minutes before it did. You know, we may be facing the worst nightmare of all technicians: A periodic failure! I'm still suspecting the varistor, but other things are in parallel: The primary winding of the transformer, the blower motors etc. Please check the service manual for the correct copper resistances of those electromagnetic field windings.
One question: Are you absolutely sure that the blown fuses had the correct ratings?

Good luck. Keep us posted

73 de OZ7XRT


----------



## Bugs (Nov 9, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> This certainly is good news. I'm also a radio amateur ( call sign OZ7XRT ). Next step in troubleshooting your stove is to find out why the fuse popped, and why it took several minutes before it did. You know, we may be facing the worst nightmare of all technicians: A periodic failure! I'm still suspecting the varistor, but other things are in parallel: The primary winding of the transformer, the blower motors etc. Please check the service manual for the correct copper resistances of those electromagnetic field windings.
> One question: Are you absolutely sure that the blown fuses had the correct ratings?
> 
> Good luck. Keep us posted
> ...



Cool (call sign N7YZ) putting new varistor and  triac. The stove had been working well until I put the new auger in.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 18, 2017)

Well, replaced the triac and veristor and it was working again yay ! 45 min. Then fuse blew again...this suks


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 18, 2017)

Did it start back up after replacing the fuse? (this time)


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 18, 2017)

If it starts back up and runs,turn off and unplug,to save the board you repaired.I highly suspect a wire has a rubbed through spot somewhere,could be very tiny.One old school way,put inline fusees in the power feed wires to all 3 motors,smaller amps than main fuse.Will leave you some info links,not all apply to your stove,but good stuff.http://www.hearthtools.com/parts/lowlimit.htm http://butkus.org/whitfield_operate/whitfield_operate.htm https://www.scribd.com/document/153792908/Advantage-II-T-Classic-Pellet-Stove-Manual. And--KF7BBL


----------



## Bugs (Nov 18, 2017)

bob bare said:


> Did it start back up after replacing the fuse? (this time)



Yes, it was working fine auger was working correctly. I’m thinking problem solved, then I heard the fuse blow. I bought the fuses at Home Depot they match the rating of the original.(amps-volts). Wiring all appears to be fine. And now with a new fuse the auger is running all the time again....on or off :-(


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 18, 2017)

The fuse on my control board is rated 6 Amps and it's an F type ( F= fast action ). The Amp rating of the fuse in a 120 Volt stove is probably a little higher.

Try a test run with both blowers and auger motor unplugged. If fuse pops now, something is shorted on the board. Otherwise plug each load in one at a time, until the fuse blows.

If you have a good ampère meter you could insert the probes from this instead of the fuse and take a reading of the current that is drawn, and also see if the current is fluctuating violently ( periodic failure? )

Good luck and take care.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 19, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Yes, it was working fine auger was working correctly. I’m thinking problem solved, then I heard the fuse blow. I bought the fuses at Home Depot they match the rating of the original.(amps-volts). Wiring all appears to be fine. And now with a new fuse the auger is running all the time again....on or off :-(


So the fuse blew,and took out the triac again?Time to do what I said with inline fuses.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 19, 2017)

bob bare said:


> So the fuse blew,and took out the triac again?Time to do what I said with inline fuses.



Yes, it took out the triac AGAIN! I didn’t do as Bob suggested in time..I did get extras (triac and varistor) but I just don’t get where it is shorting, guess I’m going to have to uninstall and go through all the wiring with a fine tooth comb.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 19, 2017)

Newer electronics are much better protected,your old board is not.Used to be common to install separate inline fuses in older stoves.Good luck.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 19, 2017)

bob bare said:


> Newer electronics are much better protected,your old board is not.Used to be common to install separate inline fuses in older stoves.Good luck.



Here are some pictures before it was cleaned what wires would you put inline fuses?


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 19, 2017)

The hot side of the motors.close to control,busy right now,will check your manual and get back to you later.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 19, 2017)

Your wire colors may be different.The main thing is to be on the hot leg,does not do any good to be on the ground leg.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 19, 2017)

I put x where I would do it,could be either side of terminal board


----------



## Bugs (Nov 20, 2017)

I would assume an inline fuse rated the same that is on the board.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 20, 2017)

Bugs said:


> I would assume an inline fuse rated the same that is on the board.


No,I would go lower,you are testing/protecting individual items,not the whole system,that way if one goes,will not damage board.


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 22, 2017)

Bugs, this could explain, why your stove keeps blowing the auger-triac and the fuse: The auger rotation is restricted ( worn out Nylatron bushing ). This extra load on the motor overheats the auger-triac so much that it melts down after some minutes and turns into a permanent short circuit. Now auger motor gets 120 Vac constantly through the shorted triac, and this will eventually blow the fuse.
I bet your stove originally had a 3A fuse installed, since there's no igniter, right?
In this old thread several Advantage stoves had the same issue like yours. One user "cured" it by upgrading to a 6A fuse, but the correct remedy is to inspect the auger bearing for any restrictions due to wear. Most likely it's just the Nylatron bushing that needs replacement.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...making-me-go-bald-pulling-my-hair-out.116588/


----------



## Bugs (Nov 22, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> Bugs, this could explain, why your stove keeps blowing the auger-triac and the fuse: The auger rotation is restricted ( worn out Nylatron bushing ). This extra load on the motor overheats the auger-triac so much that it melts down after some minutes and turns into a permanent short circuit. Now auger motor gets 120 Vac constantly through the shorted triac, and this will eventually blow the fuse.
> I bet your stove originally had a 3A fuse installed, since there's no igniter, right?
> In this old thread several Advantage stoves had the same issue like yours. One user "cured" it by upgrading to a 6A fuse, but the correct remedy is to inspect the auger bearing for any restrictions due to wear. Most likely it's just the Nylatron bushing that needs replacement.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...making-me-go-bald-pulling-my-hair-out.116588/



So if the triac melts down and creates a short, wouldn’t the auger run nonstop for a period of time before the fuse blows? I’m not seeing that happen. The stove is running normal and then I hear the fuse pop (loud) and after replacing the fuse it now runs continuously (auger). However it does make some sense, it seamed like when I span the auger by hand replacing the auger it seemed to hang up a bit like something was jammed. Then it seemed to free up?


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 22, 2017)

Bugs said:


> The stove is running normal and then I hear the fuse pop (loud) and after replacing the fuse it now runs continuously (auger).


If we could have measured both the torgue produced by the auger motor and the current flow trough the triac, and also have had a data logging system record the exact time for these events, I'm sure the curves would have peaked at the same time. The loud sound you hear, must be generated by the stuck auger shaft losing its torgue very abruptly, when power is cut by the burnt fuse.
The melting of a fuse thread inside its glass tube is quite silent.



Bugs said:


> However it does make some sense, it seamed like when I span the auger by hand replacing the auger it seemed to hang up a bit like something was jammed. Then it seemed to free up?



Time to pull the auger shaft for a closer inspection. If your stove has the older Oilite bronze bushing, I strongly recommend upgrading to the Nylatron version, but this requires the purchase of both a new endplate and Nylatron bushing:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AUGER-BEAR...-STOVE-PP4010-12153900-13650072-/401052357998


----------



## Bugs (Nov 22, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> If we could have measured both the torgue produced by the auger motor and the current flow trough the triac, and also have had a data logging system record the exact time for these events, I'm sure the curves would have peaked at the same time. The loud sound you hear, must be generated by the stuck auger shaft losing its torgue very abruptly, when power is cut by the burnt fuse.
> The melting of a fuse thread inside its glass tube is quite silent.
> 
> 
> ...



Usually fuses die a peaceful death, but 2 out of 3 where loud and left the fuses black inside. I’ll empty my pellets again and pull the auger.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 22, 2017)

And,(I know you do not want to hear this) there have been cases that control boards blow the fuse/short after running for a while.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 23, 2017)

Pulled the auger motor off, cleaned out the hopper. Been spinning the auger by hand and no hang ups... it does have about 1/4 in of play in/out not really any excessive play. It was definitely hanging up the first time I had the motor off, but I also had a lot of sawdust I was trying to remove old pellets.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 23, 2017)

If the armature slides up / down it wil lose alot of its torque because of the armature moving out of the manetic field the coil is producing. They use nylon and phenolic washers/shims to keep it centered. So if you power the auger up while holding it you can see the armature move down(usually) from the worm gear made into the shaft. That pulls it into the gearbox. You can add more washers to that end of the shaft to make up for the wear. But it only going to be a temp fix, might get an hour might get a year. Never know

1/4” up n down is excessive


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 23, 2017)

Something like this must be blocking your auger. 1/4 '' clearance is way too much. 

"The auger blades were hitting the back plate"


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 23, 2017)

JRemington said:


> Now I think about it we had a stove last year that was blowing fuses. I finally found it by unplugging the power to the low limit, high limit and vacuum switches. I also unhooked the power to the auger. I started the stove and reconnected everything one at a time. When I connected the auger the fuse blew. It ended up a "new" auger motor had a short in it.


I found a similar issue. The insulation melted off one of the auger motor wires and shorted to the stove body, and caused the igniter to burn out and blow the fuse!
On another stove a shorted igniter kept blowing the fuse!


----------



## Bugs (Nov 23, 2017)

That maybe what I am experiencing, I’ll order the nylatron endplate you suggested, or is there more to do? Do I also need to replace the bushing and get spacers. Than I still have to get my board fixed again, I did get an extra triac and veristor just in case, should I replace them both again.

thank you all for the great help.


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 24, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Do I also need to replace the bushing and get spacers.



How much is left of the bushing in your stove? Is it nylon or bronze? 
It is the bushing that keeps the lower part ( the auger blade ) in safe distance from the back plate. A spacer or a washer should not be needed. At least not when all parts are new. When things get worn heavily, a spacer could help keeping a safe distance, but wouldn't it increase friction? The Nylatron bushing in my stove has been working well for ten years without any spacer.

Are there obvious signs of your augerblade grinding on the endplate? Can you post of pic the involved parts?
You need to inspect the entire auger mechanism for abnormal wear or damage.
If your stove had a Nylatron bushing from new, there's no need to buy the extra endplate, just the Nylatron bushing. A bronze bushing has a different diameter, so different endplate.



Bugs said:


> I did get an extra triac and veristor just in case, should I replace them both again.



Since the auger runs continously, the triac must be replaced. The varistor I would remove permanently and instead run the stove with a quality surge protector. An even better solution is an UPS ( Uinterrupted Power Supply ) and not much more expensive.
Keeping my fingers crossed on your success with the stove.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 24, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> How much is left of the bushing in your stove? Is it nylon or bronze?
> It is the bushing that keeps the lower part ( the auger blade ) in safe distance from the back plate. A spacer or a washer should not be needed. At least not when all parts are new. When things get worn heavily, a spacer could help keeping a safe distance, but wouldn't it increase friction? The Nylatron bushing in my stove has been working well for ten years without any spacer.
> 
> Are there obvious signs of your augerblade grinding on the endplate? Can you post of pic the involved parts?
> ...



I haven’t pulled the auger out yet, will do that today and take pictures. I’m sure this is the original plate.
If I remove the veristor will I need to jump the holes left ?


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 24, 2017)

Bugs said:


> If I remove the veristor will I need to jump the holes left ?



NO ! by no means jump the holes left. This will blow the fuse immediately. The varistor is connected between the hot phase and neutral. It has to be, you know, in order to absorb surges on the mains supply.
Remember: The varistor is a Voltage Dependent Resistor that is shunting the surges by turning into a very low resistance, when the applied voltage is over a certain threshold.
But don't remove the varistor, unless you have an external surge protector of a good quality. The TrippLite I mentioned earlier in the thread is one of the best.
Looking forward to see what's left of the bushing.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 24, 2017)

Pulled the auger, pretty sloppy bushing is definitely worn out. I couldn’t get it to scrape the base plate outside the stove by hand, but it definitely looks like it has been. I’m going to get the new one. I’m sure the top end is worn too.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 24, 2017)

Uppers wear out much less,can be difficult to replace.


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 24, 2017)

Nice sharp pics. Working surfaces and bushing sure look worn, but nothing appears damaged.
This video has some useful info related to the inspection and upgrading from Oilite bronze to Nylatron bushing:


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 25, 2017)

Bugs, this kit is for sale very close to you. The kit contains both Nylatron bearing, endplate and gasket. The endplate is also an upgraded version with rubber bumper and pad, which should reduce auger noise.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AUGER-BEAR...-STOVE-PP4010-12153900-13650072-/401052357998

Inspired by this thread, I checked the play on my auger shaft, and... there is some play. It is nine years, since I replaced the Nylatron bearing, so a replacement is needed. Unfortunately the seller on eBay does not ship to Denmark. Think I'll send them an email and ask if we can work out something.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 26, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> Bugs, this kit is for sale very close to you. The kit contains both Nylatron bearing, endplate and gasket. The endplate is also an upgraded version with rubber bumper and pad, which should reduce auger noise.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/AUGER-BEAR...-STOVE-PP4010-12153900-13650072-/401052357998
> 
> Inspired by this thread, I checked the play on my auger shaft, and... there is some play. It is nine years, since I replaced the Nylatron bearing, so a replacement is needed. Unfortunately the seller on eBay does not ship to Denmark. Think I'll send them an email and ask if we can work out something.



Thanks, I did order one and it arrived today, I have amazon prime so freight was no charge and I got it the next day.
I’m going to install it today and try and solder a new triac in. I found my desoldering tool so I’ll give it a try, worse case is ruin my board.


----------



## Bugs (Nov 26, 2017)

Installed the new end plate, the old one was very sloppy, I could see a gap between the bushing and end plate. I am letting the stove run for awhile to see if the fuse blows with the auger running continuously. Not sure if it works that way with the triac already bad, but I would think if it overheated running in intermittent mode, it would overheat faster in continuous running (pretzel logic)


----------



## Bugs (Nov 26, 2017)

Well, that sucked last triac I had, got the center ribbon to hot started separating from the board but I was able to juryrig, it lasted 10 min and blew the fuse again, I’m so frustrated I could eat fried chicken.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Did you add in the other fuses first?


----------



## Bugs (Nov 26, 2017)

bob bare said:


> Did you add in the other fuses first?



No... I was so sure that the bad bushing was causing a major drag and overheating. I learned a big lesson maybe a very costly one, not sure this board can take the heat of another soldering job..already have a ribbon separating from the board that goes to the middle post on triac. Is there a way to check the resistance of the other components that might be the culprit? I’m just frustrated that the fuse isn’t protecting the triac, it made since what stovensen was saying.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Bugs said:


> No... I was so sure that the bad bushing was causing a major drag and overheating. I learned a big lesson maybe a very costly one, not sure this board can take the heat of another soldering job..already have a ribbon separating from the board that goes to the middle post on triac. Is there a way to check the resistance of the other components that might be the culprit? I’m just frustrated that the fuse isn’t protecting the triac, it made since what stovensen was saying.


It could be the board itself,yes.Guy that posed here fixes them.If other fuses were there,you would have known.Might want to give this guy a call. 
*(Heatwave Electronics. (heatwaveelectronics@gmail.com ) 530-820-3700*


----------



## Bugs (Nov 26, 2017)

bob bare said:


> It could be the board itself,yes.Guy that posed here fixes them.If other fuses were there,you would have known.Might want to give this guy a call.
> *(Heatwave Electronics. (heatwaveelectronics@gmail.com ) 530-820-3700*



Ya your right, I was being lazy, didn’t want to disconnect all the pipes and pull the stove out, and it may have cost me. Guess I was hoping for an easy fix. This thing was running perfectly until the first auger went out. Sometimes I thought I could hear it hanging up, so I ASSumed it was the bearing over heating the auger motor as mentioned. I’m not giving up on this stove yet.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Well, that sucked last triac I had, got the center ribbon to hot started separating from the board but I was able to juryrig, it lasted 10 min and blew the fuse again, I’m so frustrated I could eat fried chicken.



a small workaround for bad traces. cat5 cable single strand of copper wire (Orange Wire) for missing trace. or tin the trace with solder (trace that popped). see pic my old big e board before the Surge protector


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Well.if you can fix board,put a fuse inline.You could try several things,pull auger motor,wire direct to outlet,run it,but I would not do it unless you add inline fuse,or,set motor on counter,hook ohm meter to one or both motor leads,one lead to motor/gearcase body,heat with hair dryer.Also,this is remote,as I do not know if the low limit is low or high voltage,unhook wires from low limit(leave in place),hook ohm meter to ground and one of terminals,heat with hair dryer,when snaps,see if grounding.Would be rare,but you do have a strange problem.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

most limit switches are 115/220. but you can ck them for continuity with the hair drier/heat gun


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> most limit switches are 115/220


Yes,I know,but have you ever looked at an old whitfied wiring diagram?


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

Me no I have not. haven't had the need to


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Me no I have not. haven't had the need to


sometimes the snap switch goes into the control panel,lol,and lots of versions,quite a mess,here take a look. http://www.hearthtools.com/parts/whitfield_wire_diagrams.pdf


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

yes, i see what you mean. the relay was removed due to redundancy and the moved the limit switches to control board. is this control board multi layered? ok im not asking any more questions.. Bob I'll pick your brain in another thread.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> yes, i see what you mean. the relay was removed due to redundancy and the moved the limit switches to control board. is this control board multi layered? ok im not asking any more questions.. Bob I'll pick your brain in another thread.


single layer


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

should be easy to repair then.if it isn't controled by a Prom. i would run in-line fuses to all the motors and leave them in line.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> if it isn't controlled by a Prom


 disregard!  it is controlled by a prom. if higher voltage got past the triac going the wrong way (i don't see any diod's in line) it very likely disrupted the mechanical side of the prom.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> disregard!  it is controlled by a prom. if higher voltage got past the triac going the wrong way (i don't see any diod's in line) it very likely disrupted the mechanical side of the prom.


LOL true,I doubt it flashed over unless took out traces.Almost everything has had prom's since the early 80's


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

Honestly I wouldn't do any more testing without in-line fuses. gotta find the culprit of the timed short.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Honestly I wouldn't do any more testing without in-line fuses. gotta find the culprit of the timed short.


Ya he knows,especially if he wants to save that board,but it is due for the board upgrade----


----------



## Bugs (Nov 26, 2017)

bob bare said:


> Ya he knows,especially if he wants to save that board,but it is due for the board upgrade----



 And what is the board upgrade ? The trace is still there I had to solder it to the center post where it was originally everything is so small for my 60+ year eyes I’m not sure I have the talent required. I will need to order more triac and inline fuses any recommendations on inline fuses, I’ve used several kinds over the years for ham power.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 26, 2017)

Bugs said:


> And what is the board upgrade ? The trace is still there I had to solder it to the center post where it was originally everything is so small for my 60+ year eyes I’m not sure I have the talent required. I will need to order more triac and inline fuses any recommendations on inline fuses, I’ve used several kinds over the years for ham power.


Just a newer board,usually the programming is a bit better or better cleaner burns,but,if was mine,and board fixable,go with the one you have.Although,some newer boards solder in pc board fuses to help protect the board.I would try to fix board again,if mine.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 26, 2017)

any in-line 120v 3or4 amp would work


----------



## stellep (Nov 27, 2017)

Bugs, just curious.  

What is the auger clearance with the new bushing?

Where are you sourcing the board component?

Soon you will win!


----------



## Monica in France (Nov 28, 2017)

I've only just come across this fascinating thread!
I've been trying to correlate the 'touch board' and the printed circuit.
In general with success. But I don't understand what looks like two triacs for the auger motor control. One with a heat sink and one without. And it is the one without a heat-sink which blows.
This sounds wrong : so what is that other component ? A choke ? But its connections look like a triac or another power transistor config.

Taking the basic problem simply : all the electrics worked fine until the new auger motor was fitted.
After that we have a toasted triac and fuse for each trial.
The new motor is eliminated because it works for 15 minutes each time.
But what if the new motor is not the same rating as the original one : if the specifications have changed since 1991?  I can not imagine any agent checking this < Looks the same – must be the same >.
Can I suggest two experiments after fitting Bob B's inline fuse in the auger feed wire ? ( Bob B : why not the unswiched side ?)
Run the old motor for 20 min – will it ?
Run the new one – does Bob's fuse blow ?


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 28, 2017)

Bugs can you take a pic of the 2 auger motor labels. Im curious of the amps they are drawing.


----------



## Mt Bob (Nov 28, 2017)

Monica in France said:


> I've only just come across this fascinating thread!
> I've been trying to correlate the 'touch board' and the printed circuit.
> In general with success. But I don't understand what looks like two triacs for the auger motor control. One with a heat sink and one without. And it is the one without a heat-sink which blows.
> This sounds wrong : so what is that other component ? A choke ? But its connections look like a triac or another power transistor config.
> ...


Monica,in case the problem is a rubbed through wire somewhere,You want fuse on power side befor eit feeds anything else.


----------



## Monica in France (Nov 28, 2017)

Bob :  good thinking.So as near to the circuit board as possible.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 28, 2017)

FOR REFERENCE.  I keep going back to pg1 to reference the board


----------



## Monica in France (Nov 29, 2017)

Silly idea perhaps , but what if you added a heatsink to that triac which is always burning out ?
I now see four triacs , two without heatsink for some reason , and a relay. ( Stovensons has an extra relay for the igniter).
Ssyko has labelled the two fans and the auger . What do the rest do ?


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 29, 2017)

I been trying to trace them but its tough with a picture and no way to use a meter. That is what confuses me also Monica. 2 w/heatsinks and 2 wo/heatsinks. Now stovensons has the igniter control but Bugs doesn’t but both have the same amount of triacs. Now im guessing here but would they use a triac for something other than a motor control?


----------



## Monica in France (Nov 29, 2017)

I'm surprised that the auger is using a triac : it must be speed controlled and not a duty cycle for which a relay would be more suited.
But 15 minutes sounds about right to toast a triac if you are overheating it.
what else could you use a triac for ?


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 29, 2017)

Almost every stove board ive been into uses triacs for auger, fans/blowers control. My oooold lopi uses pots, thats one simple set up. But Bugs has 4 so my question is why arent all 4 heatsinked? are the auger motors drawing to many amps for the circuit? Old one wore out= draws to much. New one is made from diff mfg. and has a larger stack and draws more?  Id like the board and motors to bench test.

I agree alot of these boards would benefit from relays! But they wouldn’t sell as many


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 30, 2017)

Since monday the internet has been down at my place ( cables were ripped over by some heavy machines down the road. ) But now it's working again 

There seems to be some confusion about the number af triacs on Bugs' and my control boards. They are absolutely identical  ( except for a few 230 Volt components needed on my board ).
I can inform you with absolute empirical certainty that there are only three triacs on the boards... two are for the blower motors and both these have heat sinks, since the blower motors run continously and have a higher wattage ( draw more amps ). The auger triac is the one without heat sink. The auger motor only draws  0.41 amps @ 120 Volt/60 Hz and is only meant to run intermittently controlled by a recycling routine written inside the microcontroller.
The three triacs on my board are all manufactured by Motorola and all three have the type designation: MAC 228 A6 ( sensitive gate ).

The fourth component, also in a TO220 housing like the triacs, is located close to the transformer and is a positive voltage regulator ( LM 7805 ) that supplies the microcontroller and its sourrounding components with 5 Volt DC

Overview, current consumption @ 120 Volt/60 Hz:
Combustion motor: 0.95 Ampère
Convection motor:  1.25 Ampère
Auger motor:           0.41 Ampère
Total:                        2.61 Ampère

To this we must add transformer loss and the consumption of all the other components on the board. If the auger motor is restricted severely, it could easily draw more than the nominal  0.41 Ampère. I understand that Bugs is running the stove with a 3 A Fast acting fuse, since there's no igniter installed, so from this calculation we can conclude that a 3 A fuse is working on its limits in a restricted auger situation.

But why is the triac melted into a short every time the fuse blows? A possible answer to this question could be to know these exact informations: We need to know both the exact time for the climax in current rise through the auger triac and the exact time of the climax of the torgue produced by the auger motor. From what Bugs informed us in a previous post, the loud "bang" noise from the auger occurred simultaniously with the fuse popping. This information led me to conclude that the source of the issue was a restricted auger shaft.

Bugs: Try a 6 A fuse instead. Mine has been running with the same 6 A fuse since 1998. And note: The mains voltage here is 230 Volt, so any short circuits are even more destructive at this double voltage.
The damaged copper tracks are fairly easy to repair with thin copper wires taken from a piece of multicore cable.
And a new triac is only few $$

Good luck and take care. Keep us posted


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 30, 2017)

Thanks Stovensen. glad your back on line  




Stovensen said:


> The fourth component, also in a TO220 housing like the triacs, is located close to the transformer and is a positive voltage regulator ( LM 7805 ) that supplies the microcontroller and its sourrounding components with 5 Volt DC



that helps me a lot. I am an amateur at electronics, and i try to learn as much as I can when someone with the knowledge speaks. correct me if i'm wrong with my assessment pic


----------



## Monica in France (Nov 30, 2017)

If I follow Stovenson correctly he is saying that as the Triac is not causing the fuse to blow because when the fuse is replaced and the stove restarted ,it  did not do so in the first place. 
And there , I admit he has a very good point .
But unless we say that the blown fuse causes the triac to fry we are surely faced with a cause and an effect.

We need Bugs to confirm that the new auger is the same as the old one with a 0.41 amp rating.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 30, 2017)

Monica in France said:


> If I follow Stovenson correctly he is saying that as the Triac is not causing the fuse to blow because when the fuse is replaced and the stove restarted ,it  did not do so in the first place.
> And there , I admit he has a very good point .
> But unless we say that the blown fuse causes the triac to fry we are surely faced with a cause and an effect.
> 
> We need Bugs to confirm that the new auger is the same as the old one with a 0.41 amp rating.


 your way ahead of me Monica.
I'm still confirming components on the board LOL  I was thinking the auger was the culprit for the fuses blowing. I think the old motor was tired and brought the amperage draw to a spike when it bound up.  yes we need Bugs to verify the new motor stats


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 30, 2017)

Monica in France said:


> But unless we say that the blown fuse causes the triac to fry we are surely faced with a cause and an effect.
> 
> We need Bugs to confirm that the new auger is the same as the old one with a 0.41 amp rating.



Yes, and we also need Bugs to confirm that the fuses all blow at the same time as the loud "bang". As I understand it, the bang can only be generated, when the torgue on the auger shaft is released very abruptly by the fuse cutting the power. Is it a "bang" or a "click"?
And remember: The winding in the auger motor has a quite high self inductance. If the power is cut when the phase of the alternating current is on its climax ( either + or - going phase ) a huge reverse voltage is induced in the coil... this could kill the triac instantly. Semi conductor based fuses are among the fastest acting types. Much faster than melting metal wires.

Edit, I just reread the last posts from Bugs and realise that the fuse and triac also blew after the auger bearing was replaced, so my theory about the restricted auger shaft cannot be the whole explanation.
Monica in Frances suggestion: That the issue is caused by higher amp-rating of new auger motor combined with an underrated 3A fuse, could be solved by replacing it with a 6A fuse.
I would guess that the reverse high voltage generated in the inductive load will destroy the triac in most of the cases, when the fuse blows??


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 30, 2017)

BUGS!!  where are you? lol


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 30, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> BUGS!!  where are you? lol


 
Lol 

Until Bugs shows up with some more info, we can keep the discussion alive. Right now I'm going to contradict myself.
I made this assumption:


Stovensen said:


> I would guess that the reverse high voltage generated in the inductive load will destroy the triac in most of the cases, when the fuse blows??



If this is correct, then why does the triac not get blown when it switches the auger motor on/off?


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 30, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> The winding in the auger motor has a quite high self inductance. If the power is cut when the phase of the alternating current is on its climax ( either + or - going phase ) a huge reverse voltage is induced in the coil..


 would this be similar to a capacitor unloading? if so would that make the blowing of the fuse and triac simultaneous and instantainious. not after 10-15 min of running


----------



## Stovensen (Nov 30, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> would this be similar to a capacitor unloading?



Good point, Ssyko! Capacitors and inductors ( coils ) have totally similar behaviours ( transfers functions ) when they are charged/discharged. The difference between them must be noted, though: The voltage rise on a charging capacitor follows the same exponential curve as the current rise on a charging inductor.
A charged capacitor is in a static state ( electrostatics ) The voltage is present with the terminals disconnected from the charging source.
A charged inductor is in a dynamic state ( electrodynamics ) The current is present only with the terminals connected to the charging source.

The real "magic" happens, when a charged inductor with a running current is disconnected from the DC source: It responds conservatively by generating a reverse much higher voltage with respect to the polarity of the DC source. Mystical, isn't it?

When a charged capacitor is connected to a short circuit it responds by generating a very high current in the opposite direction af the charging current.



Ssyko said:


> if so would that make the blowing of the fuse and triac simultaneous and instantainious. not after 10-15 min of running



Remote troubleshooting is difficult. If only we could have seen/heard what happened, when Bugs' stove blew the fuses, and also have measured the current running through the board, things might have been easier.

A couple of years ago I made a video of what the auger voltage looks like on my stove. You can see that the motor gets the full line voltage ( 230 V/50Hz ) directly from the triac. What the oscilloscope cannot show is the exact moment when it switches on and when it switches off. Does this happen when the line voltage crosses zero? If so, the current should also be zero, and this would be harmless for the triac.
If the triac is switching in the phase climaxes, wouldn't this generate the destructive reverse voltage? I really don't know, to be honest.


----------



## Ssyko (Nov 30, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> A charged capacitor is in a static state ( electrostatics ) The voltage is present with the terminals disconnected from the charging source.


 This I learned long ago and it knocked me cold, (school of electro shock)



Stovensen said:


> A charged inductor is in a dynamic state ( electrodynamics ) The current is present only with the terminals connected to the charging source.


 this i did not know. and could this explain the time delay in blown fuses vs auger run time?



Stovensen said:


> The real "magic" happens, when a charged inductor with a running current is disconnected from the DC source: It responds conservatively by generating a reverse much higher voltage with respect to the polarity of the DC source. Mystical, isn't it?


  FASINATING!



Stovensen said:


> Does this happen when the line voltage crosses zero? If so, the current should also be zero, and this would be harmless for the triac.
> If the triac is switching in the phase climaxes, wouldn't this generate the destructive reverse voltage? I don't really know, to be honest.


 there would have to be some sort of timer in the circuit or prom to calculate zero voltage and trigger the triac. which is possible (i have yet to get into any of the prom code on stoves). IF it is in the code and the first blown fuse and fried triac very well could have damaged the prom and its coding. I think i hurt my brain.lol


AWSOME VIDEO!! im looking into this in the near future  https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...WVurcCfxYYr7N8IzwwXW8I3yhPIBxRcBoCRrMQAvD_BwE


----------



## Monica in France (Dec 1, 2017)

hey folks - Keep It Simple !
I think zero volt triggering is to reduce interference more than anything else.
if these sorts of problems cause that triac to be toasted then think what could happen with a power cut.

If we assume that the rest of the board is still ok , and that is partially confirmed by the 15 minutes before the fuse goes, then we only need a reason to explain the 15 minutes of it actually working.  And to my mind a heat build up is nice simple solution.
When that triac gets very hot something happens to blow the fuse. After that it is a simple short circuit and not generating heat.
The noise heard by Bugs is this something blowing the fuse.
I would add that heat sink , not make the fuse bigger.

I enjoyed hearing the pellets falling in the burner in that video ! 

Where are you Bugs ?


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 1, 2017)

Well,an Endland pellet stove can blow the fuse,after warming up,when one of the motors gets too hot,and is what I suspect,is bugs problem,just poor design it takes out the triac.Europeans have much cleaner burning pellet stoves,and furnaces,but also have much higher restrictions.I prefer simple.As we say in the car business,more bells and whistles are just more things to break.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

Sorry we did get a lil carried away. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). Im sure the components are overloading because of amprage draw, old auger was just plain tired and had a jam to boot, poof!  Now the new motor we need bugs to verify it’s voltage. Amperage, specs match the original or if it is an aftertmarket that is higher amperage


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

Wow! Sorry, had to do a job out of town forgot my iPad thread kinda blew up on me, you have know idea how much I appreciate the input.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

“Taking the basic problem simply : all the electrics worked fine until the new auger motor was fitted.
After that we have a toasted triac and fuse for each trial.”

Actually it blew the first time with the original auger motor, that’s what got me started on this quest to fix this beast.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 1, 2017)

I thought so,which is why I recommend the separate fuses.They are getting off on electronics theory,without having the device in hand,which is fine kinda fun reading it all,lol


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Bugs can you take a pic of the 2 auger motor labels. Im curious of the amps they are drawing.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

Yes we kinda went off into left field but it was great exercise for my brain. But glad your back Bugs! Now you know what we all need to know is if the new auger motor has the same stats voltage, amps etc. as the old motor.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> any in-line 120v 3or4 amp would work



Bought 3 inline and 5amp fuses should I use 4amp ?


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

Sorry  we type at same time


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

Your fuses that blew were 5amp fast blow?


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 1, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Bought 3 inline and 5amp fuses should I use 4amp ?


even less would be fine,2 or 3,but 4 is still less,is ok.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

Yeah what bob said less than 5. We want to try and protect your 5a and triac


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Your fuses that blew were 5amp fast blow?



They where 6amp fast, that’s why I think Bob recommended going lower amp.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

Bugs said:


> “Taking the basic problem simply : all the electrics worked fine until the new auger motor was fitted.
> After that we have a toasted triac and fuse for each trial.”
> 
> Actually it blew the first time with the original auger motor, that’s what got me started on this quest to fix this beast.


Okay, now I have to correct myself, the fuse did not blow with the old auger, it just stopped turning the auger (from what I remember) fuse blew with the new auger.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

stellep said:


> Bugs, just curious.
> 
> What is the auger clearance with the new bushing?
> 
> ...



It is much better 1/8” up/down virtually 0” side to side.

Digi-key for components


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

Monica in France said:


> I'm surprised that the auger is using a triac : it must be speed controlled and not a duty cycle for which a relay would be more suited.
> But 15 minutes sounds about right to toast a triac if you are overheating it.
> what else could you use a triac for ?



The first time was about 45 min the second about 15.
I think there may be a pot in between for speed adjustment.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> Since monday the internet has been down at my place ( cables were ripped over by some heavy machines down the road. ) But now it's working again
> 
> There seems to be some confusion about the number af triacs on Bugs' and my control boards. They are absolutely identical  ( except for a few 230 Volt components needed on my board ).
> I can inform you with absolute empirical certainty that there are only three triacs on the boards... two are for the blower motors and both these have heat sinks, since the blower motors run continously and have a higher wattage ( draw more amps ). The auger triac is the one without heat sink. The auger motor only draws  0.41 amps @ 120 Volt/60 Hz and is only meant to run intermittently controlled by a recycling routine written inside the microcontroller.
> ...



I noticed the new auger is 0.45 amps the old was 0.41 I wouldn’t think that could cause the problem.
Also all the blown fuses where 6amp fast.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 1, 2017)

I did get a new tool today to help maintain the old beast WHEN I get her going again.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 1, 2017)

If you only got 5's use em.Nice new sucker you got there!


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

Your new auger draws .04a more than the old one and should not have that much diff as long as the max amp draw of the board does not exceed your Fuse. now are all the motors original to the stove? im thinking new auger is taking out the triac  and the triac shorting is blowing the fuse. Bugs can you pull the auger and bench test it with outlet power and check the amps its drawing without the board in the loop?


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

where did you buy this new auger?


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 1, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> where did you buy this new auger?


We have overloaded this poor man with much info.we appreciate all help,you are intelligent,yet appears you sometimes reply before reading the whole thread,which leads to illogical reply's and questions.Calm down,have a beer.If I may ask,why are you running 5 pellet stoves?I am not trying to be rude,just trying to cut down the same questions asked,within the same thread,as I and stove owners do appreciate your help.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 1, 2017)

2 in the house 1 in my shop 1 in my sons place and an extra. im not trying to overload Bugs. not trying to impress either. logical mechanical mind wants to find out WHY is all.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 2, 2017)

I appreciate all the help I’m getting from everybody, I will probably pull the stove out and work on it today or tomorrow needs to be cleaned and I’ll have better access to putting the inline fuses in. I’ll see if I can bench test the new auger and check amp draw.
I’m not overwhelmed yet, I love a challenge and intelligent communications or I’m a dumb a$$... either way keep it coming, appears this maybe helpful to others experiencing similar issues.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 2, 2017)

This spade connector is at times touching the air intake the insulation separates them but could this be a draw.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 2, 2017)

Bugs said:


> This spade connector is at times touching the air intake the insulation separates them but could this be a draw.



Good observation, Bugs. The cables on your old auger motor had a better routing, that's for sure. I've inserted your own pic, so we can compare. But hey, the new end plate should have a rubber bumper included. Is it possible to rest the auger housing/gearbox on this bumper, so that the spade connectors are turned away from the bottom of stove. The auger motor will function in any angle, just as long as it has something to rest on, when it is working ( producing torgue )


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 2, 2017)

All the wiring needs a close inspection, and from your latest post, I can see that you have already started on this.

Your pics from the garage/shop are quite sharp and detailed, and from here nothing appears damaged or torn on the wiring harness. But a very close scrutiny with a lamp and a magnifying glass is needed. Is the insultation on the wires damaged in any remote places?

Is there any humidity combined with dirt/salts on the terminal strip that could turn conductive between the terminals? Yes, dirt combined with humidity can certainly be conductive if the dirt is just a little bit salty!!

Since it is the auger triac thats keeps blowing, everything points in direction of the auger and its wiring, though.
It should be possible to measure the current, the auger draws by taking a reading with an ampèremeter. You could insert the amp-meter several places: On the terminal strip by unplugging the spade connector on terminal point no.5 and insert the amp-meter in series with the disconnected points. See pictures of terminal strip below.
But access to the auger current measurement looks much better on the pressure switch. See picture from your shop.
The augercurrent flows through both pressure switch and inlet high limit switch and is the same through the entire chain, no matter where the amp-meter is inserted in the chain:






Access for augercurrent measurement is probably better on the pressure switch:






Now we are determined on both sides of the Atlantic to make this pellet stove work 
Good luck and take care. Keep us posted


----------



## Bugs (Dec 2, 2017)

The Triacs I ordered arrived today, the picture with the new auger i posted is with the new plate and the rubber bumper installed. No matter where I locate the bumper the terminal hits the intake, I will look for a rubber pad or something I can use to insulate the 2
All of my wire are numbered to match the terminal locations. The wiring diagram img040.jpg that bob provided matches serial (#wh-41003) range, only difference is the wire direct from the auger and IHL are reversed, but are numbered that way from the factory.
The wire colors from the control box match the schematic colors.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 2, 2017)

a piece of an old motorcycle tire if you have one laying around


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 2, 2017)

Bugs said:


> The Triacs I ordered arrived today,



The tricky part now is to repair the heat-damaged copper tracks safely. An X-Acto knife with a slightly curved blade is best to scrape clean the tracks. And finding copper wires of the right thickness is important. too. Neither too thick nor too thin. I'm sure an old radio amateur will find the right stuff.



Bugs said:


> the picture with the new auger i posted is with the new plate and the rubber bumper installed. No matter where I locate the bumper the terminal hits the intake, I will look for a rubber pad or something I can use to insulate the 2



How far from the rubber bumper is the auger gearbox? I mean lengthwise ( or is it called axially?) Isn't it possible to turn the endplate 90 degrees counterclockwise so the auger ( and connectors ) rest far away from the air intake? Those spade terminals leading to the fragile auger field coil should by no means get bumped against anything at all. Not even a motorcycle tire, Ssyko 











Bugs said:


> All of my wire are numbered to match the terminal locations. The wiring diagram img040.jpg that bob provided matches serial (#wh-41003) range, only difference is the wire direct from the auger and IHL are reversed, but are numbered that way from the factory.
> The wire colors from the control box match the schematic colors.



Ok, I got that,  the series coupled chain ( auger motor, IHL and pressure switch ) is simply reversed in relation to terminals no.5 and no.6 on the terminal strip. No problem, since all is alternating current.

Looking forward to read about your current measurements.

Good luck and take care. Keep posting


----------



## Monica in France (Dec 3, 2017)

'not even a motorcycle tyre' - absolutely.
And is that the live or the return wire ?
A Serious question as it could be the cause of all our miseries.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 3, 2017)

Rotating the mount CCW 1 hole will move everything away from danger. A  1” piece of hard rubber attached to the support bracket “L” of said plate will do the same thing, it would rest on the gearbox and move motor connecttions away from air intake. I used tire because he has bikes


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 3, 2017)

Disregarding the fact that i will be scolded again for false information. I resurched the part number of the new motor and manufacturer. All the motors  i found with GGM pp7000-1 all showed up as .72a FLA/LRA is this a big diff I don’t know. Just more info


----------



## Bugs (Dec 3, 2017)

I did pick up a few soldering supplies, I’m a little concerned of board fatigue from replacing the triac for the third time.

The new bracket comes with a 1” rubber spacer, the picture w/spade touching is w/spacer. Moving the bracket 1 hole does not get the connector away from the air inlet. Moving it two holes, in my mind the motor would be fighting gravity,
The motor would turn trying to find a stop, auger would never move. And the spade would still be touching. (Of coarse I could be wrong).


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 3, 2017)

I wouldn’t wory about the gravity Bugs. As long as the connections are claer. Them gear motors are in diff positions on dif stoves. And they don’t free wheel much.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 3, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> I wouldn’t wory about the gravity Bugs. As long as the connections are claer. Them gear motors are in diff positions on dif stoves. And they don’t free wheel much.



I may not be explaining what I meant well if the weight of the motor is on the other side it will spend all it’s running time trying to pick it up until it rotates to the bump stop. Hmm still sound confusing. Not sure there is a position that they clear. Maybe if the bump stop was another 1/2” it would have 1/8” clearance.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 3, 2017)

ok i understand what your saying. it may also feed more pellets if the weight of the motor can spin the auger. i can fabricate you a new plate with stops on both sides if you want to give me the measurements, and put mount holes in any position


----------



## Bugs (Dec 3, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> ok i understand what your saying. it may also feed more pellets if the weight of the motor can spin the auger. i can fabricate you a new plate with stops on both sides if you want to give me the measurements, and put mount holes in any position



Thanks that’s very kind of u, I have the tools to add stops the problem now is I put a new triac in the board and now no auger :-( everything looks like I have contact, used liquid trace just to be sure. Board lights up as it should, but no auger movement. Either bad triac or bad solder joint. Or maybe my board has had enough hot irons poking it.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 3, 2017)

might help before you put more heat to the board 

http://www.completepowerelectronics.com/how-to-test-triac-with-multimeter/


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 4, 2017)

Brilliant link you posted there, Ssyko! So all we need to test a triac is a jumper wire and an ohmmeter. This should be easy and also accurate.

Note: The test procedure from the linked site comes in two versions: A dc-version and an ac-version. The dc-version is the first we see, when we click on your link. It is very thorough in describing what happens dc-wise in a triac, so we can easily get lost in all the details. At least I did  

Another page on the site gives the general triac-theory, and here we find the ac-version of the test. The two test procedures are basically the same, but my brain gets the best overview when using ac-approach. Here you can study both and judge for yourself. The ac-version to the right is easier for me to understand:


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 4, 2017)

The first one is basically direction to make a phisical circuit with resistors, led, switch and a 9v bat.. 2nd one is pretty basic and most can fig it out


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 5, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> 2nd one is pretty basic and most can fig it out



Exactly, and the ac-approach is even more related to the actual ac-environment, where the triac operates.

Important information is also the exact identification of the three pins on the triac: Main Terminal 1, Main Terminal 2 and Gate.

Note: Main Terminal 2 is connected to the metal part of the TO220 housing:


----------



## Monica in France (Dec 5, 2017)

Could a triac give the correct results at 9v DC but fail with 110V AC ?
Put a light bulb in parallel with /instead of  the auger motor to test the triac - simpler and more certain.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 5, 2017)

It still uses low voltage for the gate. T1 + T2 have ac 120v but I believe the gate uses 5v - 16v from the Prom side to signal  it on. Either way it only checks the functionality of the triac. I don’t want to fill the thread with theory again.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 5, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> I don’t want to fill the thread with theory again.



Agree. Let's keep it as simple as possible:

To test this device, connect the ohmmeter leads to MT2 and MT1.
The ohmmeter should indicate no continuity ( infinite Ohms )

A shorted/melted triac will indicate zero Ohm between MT1 and MT2 no matter what's happening on the gate


----------



## Bugs (Dec 7, 2017)

Update, I pulled the triac off the board, this poor board and my novice work on it :-( it seems I have burnt the solder rings out of the pin holes, soldering will be a real challenge to get the triac on the board. Not sure if they can be replaced or if there is a work around.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 7, 2017)

Bugs can you post a pic of the damage


----------



## Bugs (Dec 7, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Bugs can you post a pic of the damage


Yes, I should be home Saturday and post picture.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 9, 2017)

This is what the board is looking like after the 4th triac was removed, the silver looking dabs are my attempt to make connection of burnt traces. I will clean the area up for my next attempt #5. It may be time to throw in my hat and get a new board, fuse all the links.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 9, 2017)

OUCH!       try a little rubbing alcohol and Q-tips/old toothbrush. i think that will clean up and give you one more shot.the top looks like you can still make all the necessary connections. On the bottom the rings that are gone were for anchoring so to speak.


try using an exacto knife and clean the red areas, especially that tin by the resistor


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 9, 2017)

Bugs said:


> It may be time to throw in my hat and get a new board, fuse all the links.



The three inline fuses as suggested by Bob are certainly a good idea, but the heat damage on your board is not that serious and certainly not beyond repair.
The anchor points on the other side are gone, so a new anchoring area must be made on that side to ensure safe mounting of the triac.

My suggestion to make these anchor points is based on a piece of "bread board", you know the kind a printed circuitboard used for electronic experiments in the shop. Here in my work shop I have a type of bread board with the right properties to repair your board.
And there's more: The copper traces and holes on this bread board will enable a conversion of the triac-solder-area from double sided to single sided.
This way the soldering will be a lot easier.
I'll try to make a drawing of what my suggestion is about. Too many words are needed to explain the details. A picture or a drawing tells more than a thousand words.
And Bug's if you cannot get the specific kind of bread board I'm referring to, I'll be happy to send it to you via air mail. After all it was me who got you convinced that it would be easy to repair the board. All you have to do is send me your address via the personal conversation on this site.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 9, 2017)

I frequent several forums, and I don’t think I have had such a awesome group.
The truth is I’m learning a lot about my stove and getting old tools outa storage I haven’t used in years (maybe decades my hack job should be evidence. 
I couldn’t ask for more than everyone has provided so far.
I have been getting a few of my supplies from Fry’s electronics they may have what your referring too.
Bob had a great suggestion about the fuses and I’m going to install them before I run the stove again.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 10, 2017)

Bug's, first you need to scrape away all the conductive silver paint and don't use this again. It is only for emergency repair of low power circuitry like audio preamps, mixers etc. It is not approved for medium to high power circuits carrying line voltage, where the components may get hot. Soldering is necessary here.
An X-Acto knife is not an ideal scraping tool for delicate operations like this: The blade should be slightly curved and the long handle is in the way, when working in narrow spaces.
Many years ago I found the ideal scraper tool at the local pharmacy. They are razor sharp and with a piece of tape wrapped around the far end, you have perfect grip on it:




Fabrication of the anchor plate:




a single square cut from an experimental board like this will be perfect as anchor plate for the triac on the opposite side of the components.
You can see the measure on the vernier caliper: 0.293" . The modular hole-distance should be the same as the board and triac.
There should be space for it between the adjacent traces. The area should now be cleaned well with some acetone to remove the green protective paint and the square glued to the board. The new triac can be used as a guide to align the holes.

Now let us look at the component side:




This sketch is intended as a kind of "x-ray view" through the board in order to get the idea of what my "double-to-single sided conversion" is about.  You see where to drill with a 1mm drill bit from the anchor plate side and the traces that must be connected through the holes. It should be possible to make at least four holes without hitting/touching anything unwanted. Through these four holes you now have contact to the other side. The copper wires should be fairly thick ( 1 mm will be perfect ). They must be strong enough to serve both as conductors and anchor wires for the anchor plate on the other side. My drawing skills are lousy, I know, but I hope you get my idea?
This way you could convert the mounting area from double sided to single sided = much easier soldering. And the triac will be mounted safely.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 10, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> Bug's, first you need to scrape away all the conductive silver paint and don't use this again. It is only for emergency repair of low power circuitry like audio preamps, mixers etc. It is not approved for medium to high power circuits carrying line voltage, where the components may get hot. Soldering is necessary here.
> An X-Acto knife is not an ideal scraping tool for delicate operations like this: The blade should be slightly curved and the long handle is in the way, when working in narrow spaces.
> Many years ago I found the ideal scraper tool at the local pharmacy. They are razor sharp and with a piece of tape wrapped around the far end, you have perfect grip on it:
> View attachment 217540
> ...


LOL Wow you are teaching class,here,LOL,Nothing wrong with that,just havin fun with you.If was my board,dab of solder to hold in place,several strands of thin copper wire to connecting points,overlay with solder.But I do have a very nice surface and hot air solder station,so is easy for me.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 10, 2017)

bob bare said:


> LOL Wow you are teaching class,here,LOL,Nothing wrong with that,just havin fun with you



That's ok, Bob, lol. Electronics was my trade for many years and I guess it will always be as long as I live. Now I'm just an old retired man sitting next to a humming Whitfield stove enjoying all the nice heat it throws out on this cooold night. What's your trade Bob?


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 10, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> That's ok, Bob, lol. Electronics was my trade for many years and I guess it will always be as long as I live. Now I'm just an old retired man sitting next to a humming Whitfield stove enjoying all the nice heat it throws out on this cooold night. What's your trade Bob?


I was a mechanic,Dad was an electrician,ran the elec. dept at a cement plant,and I have dabbled in electronics since a kid.Also I am a ham radio buff.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 10, 2017)

bob bare said:


> I was a mechanic,Dad was an electrician,ran the elec. dept at a cement plant,and I have dabbled in electronics since a kid.Also I am a ham radio buff.



Cool, now we are a small club here of grown up people with many similar interests, lol. I have always repaired my cars all by myself, motor overhaul, welding, electrics, all except paint jobs.
And recently I bought a motorcycle again after a pause of almost 40 years.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 10, 2017)

<=== taking notes


----------



## stellep (Dec 10, 2017)

Hey Stovensen and Bob Bare.  I do a lot of the same things as you guys.  In fact, I have the same caliper as Stovensen.  
Must mean something.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 11, 2017)

I will stop by fry’s and see if they have the supplies needed. What is best way to cut square from board ? 

Sounds like we all have similar interests Ham radio, old classic cars, and pretty much anything that challenges the mind. 
My biggest problem is eye sight, I have a lighted magnifying glass with 3x glasses but it’s still a challenge
Can’t wait to get the old girl running again, been beautiful out but getting into the 20 and low 30’s here in Oregon.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 11, 2017)

stellep said:


> Hey Stovensen and Bob Bare.  I do a lot of the same things as you guys.  In fact, I have the same caliper as Stovensen.
> Must mean something.



Hey stellep, nice to hear from you. I'll start a thread on our calipers in the inglenook section, so we don't derail Bug's thread. Yes, it could mean something, spiritualwise. Could be interesting to explore. Down-to-earth-wise we certainly could give our reviews: Digital vs. traditional caliper. I also have some pictures of my new motorcycle, if anyone is interested.See ya in the inglenook.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 11, 2017)

Bugs said:


> What is best way to cut square from board ?



The base of the experimental board appears to be made of pertinax ( phenolic paper ), so it can be machined by drilling, sawing, milling and hot punching. Cold punching and shearing are not recommended, as they leave a ragged edge and tend to cause cracking and so does cutting with a wire cutter.

Ideal for us DIY'ers will be this tool:





Bugs said:


> Sounds like we all have similar interests Ham radio, old classic cars, and pretty much anything that challenges the mind



I'll start a thread in the inglenook section with pictures of my new motorcycle and other interesting stuff. See ya.



Bugs said:


> My biggest problem is eye sight, I have a lighted magnifying glass with 3x glasses but it’s still a challenge



My eye sight is also challenged when making solderings on small items etc.. I cannot work without this clock makers loupe. Not me on the pic.






Bugs said:


> Can’t wait to get the old girl running again, been beautiful out but getting into the 20 and low 30’s here in Oregon



Neither can we. Temps are getting low around you.

Good luck and take care. Keep posting


----------



## Bugs (Dec 11, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> The base of the experimental board appears to be made of pertinax ( phenolic paper ), so it can be machined by drilling, sawing, milling and hot punching. Cold punching and shearing are not recommended, as they leave a ragged edge and tend to cause cracking and so does cutting with a wire cutter.
> 
> Ideal for us DIY'ers will be this tool:
> View attachment 217591
> ...



I’m amazed at all the hams out there.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 11, 2017)

I don’t get bored with threads like this. Im here for the duration. I am not in the ham club but i do fall into the Car/bike club.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 12, 2017)

I know it isn’t pretty, but this is what I have done so far to prepare to install triac 5. The trace for the center hole is still there just lifted out of it’s original spot, I pushed it into the hole and believe it will stay,I still need to fix the closest hole as you can see the trace fall short of the hole.
On the back I have glued the piece on between the traces and the triac slide through fine.
Let me know if you see any issues before I solder.
Thank you.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 12, 2017)

This is a better pic.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 12, 2017)

Oh hell yeah looks good bugs.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 12, 2017)

I have used a single strand  of coppr wire to loop around legs of components to repair traces. On 120v side i used cat5 single solid wire.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 12, 2017)

Bugs said:


> View attachment 217716
> 
> 
> This is a better pic.



Yes, this is a lot better. And now we clearly see that the damage is not at all that bad. Only the solder pad and trace connected to Main Terminal 2 needs repair with a longer copper wire looped around the triac pin ( as suggested by Ssyko ). Maybe it gets so long that a dab of glue is needed to secure it to the surface? Just to be safe. Afterall the auger voltage is 120V/60Hz.
The Gate terminal is so close to the broken trace that a short piece of copper wire looped around the Gate pin on the triac also can make a secure connection here.
Solder pad for Main Terminal 1 appears totally undamaged.
No need to drill any holes to get in electrical contact to the anchor plate.
I hope you have a tip to your Weller that can solder in narrow places like the ST7 here:



The following procedure is actually quite important to ensure precise positioning:

Remember to pre-tin the points to get soldered. That way only a short burst of heat is needed to make the final solder. And you have one hand free to guide critical items in exact place with a tweezer, when you don't have to add tin during the final solder. 
During the pretinning you can also verify that the tin is flowing as it should to get perfect contact. If not, maybe some more flux is needed to clean the metal surface. Scraping some more can be necessary.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 12, 2017)

I never pre tin small components,was not taught that way.I never would have made the board support,but it is proper,if you think the board is good and will need another repair,I have used low temp solder paste,for surface mount,to repair a board like that,to run solder down a few strands of copper wire,as jumpers.But really is no wrong way,as long as it works!


----------



## Bugs (Dec 15, 2017)

This is becoming the board from hell, put the new triac in as suggested before putting it back in protective case I plugged it in, yay worked... put the cover on plugged it in hmmm no auger looked like the trace to the center pole was thin added a little solder to reinforce, plugged it in auger runs continuously:-( looked it over with glass can’t find anything obvious I’m thinking maybe solder ran together between the board and added piece of board shorting two pins ?


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 15, 2017)

Did you superglue the anchor piece onto the board? I would think the glue would have insulated the areas between the holes. I could be wrong. Hey the fuse didnt blow


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 15, 2017)

Bugs said:


> looked it over with glass can’t find anything obvious I’m thinking maybe solder ran together between the board and added piece of board shorting two pins ?



Bugs, we are equally challenged in our eyesight, since we're both in our 60's. I can fully put myself in your place, but you have to have both hands free and a sharp focused view of the small items, while working and inspecting.
I just took a virtual tour inside your local Fry's Electronics. ( wow, that's a huge place! ), but all I could find was this "Elenco LED Magnifying Lamp With Third Hand".
$42 is a bit pricy, and it has many functions that you probably already have:
https://www.frys.com/product/9369940?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

This watchmaker's loupe is universal and will enable you a sharp focused view and both hands free. I cannot make these critical operations without it, so I have bought two of them, in case one disappears. X5 magnification!
They have it at my local electronic's shop for DKK 59,- ( app. $9 ). They have a webshop. You can probably find it somewhere around you, but it may take time.
I'm sure the guys in my electronics shop would raise their eyebrows, if they received an order from Oregon, USA  But included shipping costs + shipping time it may not be an option. They still have 22 items in stock:
https://elektronik-lavpris.dk/p119451/bn204768-urmager-lup-x5/



Ssyko said:


> Hey the fuse didnt blow



That's the spirit, Ssyko. Positive thinking is the key to success


----------



## stellep (Dec 15, 2017)

Possibly you got super glue on the contacts?


----------



## Bugs (Dec 15, 2017)

Yes I did super glue the anchor, test fit everything. I have a table mounted magnified lamp, plus my 3x reading glasses.
It’s just weird that when I finished the original soldering and plugged it in, it was working! Put the cover on and it wasn’t? Added some solder to the center terminal. And now continuous. 
I’ll look it over carefully today and see if I missed something. 
I guess the good news is my soldering is getting better 
I could not have done any of this without the great help I’ve received.
Thank you all.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 15, 2017)

Bugs do you have a solder sucker? Maybe remove some from the center terminal from the bottom?


----------



## Rickenbackerman (Dec 15, 2017)

Bugs would you mind posting up the part # for the triacs you're usings?  For those of us out there whose boards currently work but for future reference in case of trouble...


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 15, 2017)

For what it is worth,you can take hobby knife,scratch open the three circuits,for testing with meter, before unsoldering.Then these can be jumped back together with solder,and wire if necessary.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 15, 2017)

Rickenbackerman said:


> Bugs would you mind posting up the part # for the triacs you're usings?  For those of us out there whose boards currently work but for future reference in case of trouble...



MAC 228 A6





Datasheet pdf attached below.


----------



## Rickenbackerman (Dec 15, 2017)

Thanks Stovensen!


----------



## Bugs (Dec 15, 2017)

Rickenbackerman said:


> Bugs would you mind posting up the part # for the triacs you're usings?  For those of us out there whose boards currently work but for future reference in case of trouble...



Not a great picture but it should have all the info.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 15, 2017)

Touched up a couple solder areas, and cleaned with acetone and it’s working. 
Now I am going to install the inline fuses as Bob suggested and keep my fingers crossed.
I’m still out to lunch on how this can blow the triac before the fuse and wether inline fuses will matter if that is the case.
But it’s better safe than sorry. I’ve learned that lesson ;-/


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 15, 2017)

I have seen some Harman boards blow the fuse,with no motors hooked up,but does not take out a triac.Probably the transformer shorts after getting hot.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 15, 2017)

Here is where I’m out to lunch, logic leads me to believe that anything like the fans, motors, etc would blow the fuse if they are drawing to many amps, not blow the auger triac and then the fuse (unless it is simultaneously happening).
I am wondering if as mentioned before something on the board is causing havoc.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 15, 2017)

bob bare said:


> I have seen some Harman boards blow the fuse,with no motors hooked up,but does not take out a triac.Probably the transformer shorts after getting hot.



Anyway to test the transformer on the board?


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 15, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Anyway to test the transformer on the board?


um,only when it is acting up,but maybe hook ohm meter to the leads,heat with hair dryer?I have ued hair dryer(well,my heat gun),and contact cleaner(to cool things down) to pinpoint bad/suspect items on a circuit board,but usually are low voltage items.Works really well to check capacitors.Should work in theory for transformer.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 15, 2017)

On the same note,sometimes england auger motors,when worn out,when get hot,seize and blow fuse,but board is usually ok.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 15, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Anyway to test the transformer on the board?



That transformer is very tiny. If its primary was to absorb all the power dissipated when the fuse blows ( 120 x 6 = 720 Watt ) then a meltdown on the primary side would have been the case. On your pic the transformer appears totally undamaged.
When the stove is plugged to the mains, the transformer is instantly active and its secondary is delivering power to the microcontroller through the 5 V voltage regulator. In this stand by state the current flowing through the fuse should be very low. Easy to measure with an ac-amp-meter inserted instead of the fuse.

Measuring the overall current flowing to the stove:

I have tried it, and for a 62 years old like me its a bit awkward to attach the alligator clips on the fuse terminals, since the fuse is pointing downwards. It is necessary to lie down on the floor.



Unplug stove.
Flip out the fuse.
Bugs, on your advantage there's no igniter plug next to the fuse terminal, so there's more room for the alligator clip, making it easier for you, but take care that the alligator clips don't touch anything except the terminals.

Ready to current measurement:



With the alligator clips safely attached to the fuse terminals, now plug the stove to the mains. Press no buttons! What amp-reading do you get on the meter? The idling board should only be drawing few milliamps, so it may be necessary to change the meter range. Unplug stove before changing the plugs on the meter if needed.
Now press the start button, but don't press the auger button. What amp-reading do you get, when the start up burst has settled?
The stove will now be running for 30 minutes, until it shuts down due to no fire, so a lot of measurements can be done.
Don't press the auger button this time, since we now are testing if anything else could be drawing too many amps, other than the auger.
This should be fairly easy, except for attaching the probes.

If you don't have an amp-meter ( multimeter ) with well insulated probe wires, don't do this test, but I'm sure you have.

Good luck and take care. Keep posting.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 15, 2017)

Stovensen said:


> That transformer is very tiny. If its primary was to absorb all the power dissipated when the fuse blows ( 120 x 6 = 720 Watt ) then a meltdown on the primary side would have been the case. On your pic the transformer appears totally undamaged.
> When the stove is plugged to the mains, the transformer is instantly active and its secondary is delivering power to the microcontroller through the 5 V voltage regulator. In this stand by state the current flowing through the fuse should be very low. Easy to measure with an ac-amp-meter inserted instead of the fuse.
> 
> Measuring the overall current flowing to the stove:
> ...


You are a wealth of info,And I thank you,in case others do not.But,the transformer is the largest thing on the board.Also,the 5v output also has to go through a rectifier,to have 5v dc for the lowvoltage components.I also have soldered bits of wire on pc boards,for testing,as,you are right,small and not much room.What I gave him was a quick everymans test.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 15, 2017)

I have it all, Fluke 73 but no alligator clips, heat guns, and all kinds of new soldering supplies.
Stovensen I have the same age eyes (62) not what they are used to be.
I still have not put the in-line fuses in yet, been a busy day.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 16, 2017)

And here is a dumb question, if the fuse is blowing as a result of one of the fan motors, would it happen if I keep running the stove without the auger motor. I know I will have to keep turning it back on after 30 min.  Could that eliminate that possibility?


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 16, 2017)

Im not following your question. (I just made my first cup of coffee) At this point in the testing, If it were me. I would take all the components and ck  each of them on the bench for 30 min and monitor the case temps and amp draw. But i wouldnt hook them up to the board without inline fuses. With the fuses in hook ea motor up one at a time and continue monitoring ea for 30 min before you hook up next one.


----------



## stellep (Dec 16, 2017)

When you get to testing the fused motors in the stove, you can bypass the POF low-limit switch TEMPORARILY and run the motors as long as you want.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 16, 2017)

I guess what I’m saying is I started the stove to see if the board was working (no fire) went out to my shack to tinker on something else forgot to shut down stove, when I came back in it shut off from limiter switch, hmmm what the hell I started again, I’ve run it for several hrs now (without auger) and it’s still going. No blown fuse.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 16, 2017)

Sweeeet! Everything is working just auger out of the loop. When is the fused auger test?


----------



## Bugs (Dec 16, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Sweeeet! Everything is working just auger out of the loop. When is the fused auger test?



Soon... I still have to put the fuse in line (5 min job with my new mad soldering skills ;-) )
It has always been my thought that the problem is in the board itself, it only makes sense to me with my limited electronics knowledge.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 16, 2017)

My thoughts on the auger is it draws to many amps, but that wouldn’t blow your triac only the fuse. So im leaning towards a temperature activated short in the transformer low voltage somehow getting a line voltage spike.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 16, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> So im leaning towards a temperature activated short in the transformer low voltage somehow getting a line voltage spike.



If this is the case, then we need to ask Bugs this question: While having the stove running for several hours, did you check if the blowers reacted to the different settings on the control panel, or were they running full speed no matter what setting? The speed of the convection blower is the easiest to monitor by ear, as it is quite loud and blows directly out in the room.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 16, 2017)

No we don’t, you just made me think . If it was a spike as the transformer warmed up it would do it to all components switched by low voltage. Guess we’ll have to see how that auger test goes. I’ll stop thinking out loud


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 16, 2017)

Ssyko said:


> Guess we’ll have to see how that auger test goes



Keeping our fingers crossed.

But you know what, all that dust and dirt on the terminal strip? If it gets humid, wouldn't that enable a lot of electrons to stroll around where they are not supposed to? Just a thought.

This is a real story:
Some people i know had a serious short circuit in a wall outlet. It was my job to find out why. After some testing it turned out that their male cat had made scent markings ( peed several times ) on this outlet.
With my ohmmeter I took a rough reading of the conductivity of the layers on the outlet: Even when the probe pins were 2 cm apart, the resistance was 0 Ohm!
So beware, dust, dirt etc.( especially if a bit salty ) combined with humidty can be highly conductive.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 16, 2017)

Yes its a good possibility. Why did they not run a 1 piece wire harness. Just the extra connections could cause problems.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 16, 2017)

3 hrs and still running. I guess I’ll throw my 2 cents in, I think it was a simple issue that was not overlooked but perhaps not considered enough by me. The only thing that has changed besides 5 triacs and an inline fuse is the rubber insulation between the terminal and fresh air inlet, no matter where I put the rubber bumper the terminal hits.
I think it was touching close enough that it would dead short, On heavy torque. Still wouldn’t explain triac first or simultaneous with fuse.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 16, 2017)

Have you got room to put the terminals at the 12 o’clock position and add this stop to your plate
https://pellet-stove-parts-4less.co...MI6ZzNpeCP2AIViY2zCh3jXwchEAQYDSABEgKzyPD_BwE


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 16, 2017)

Bugs said:


> I think it was touching close enough that it would dead short, On heavy torque



If you have a GFCI ( ground fault circuit interrupter ) installed in your house wiring, such a serious leakage to ground would instantly make the GFCI cut the power to the stove ( and all other outlets on the same group ). Do you know if there's a GFCI installed?


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 17, 2017)

Do not forget the load and expansion on the motors is less with the stove not burning,much less heat around.


----------



## Monica in France (Dec 17, 2017)

Stovensen : I would agree with you if the short is not on the board side of the circuit. But if it is between the motor and the triac I think it would toast the triac and blow the fuse before the GFCI has time to react.
Could the fuse not blowing on the re-start up because there is no torque on the auger ?
Any suggestions why this torque is not more or less constant ?

Keep it up Bugs , we are all cheering for you.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 17, 2017)

Monica in France said:


> Could the fuse not blowing on the re-start up because there is no torque on the auger ?


I don't think Bugs has the auger hooked up yet Monica.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 17, 2017)

Monica in France said:


> Stovensen : I would agree with you if the short is not on the board side of the circuit. But if it is between the motor and the triac I think it would toast the triac and blow the fuse before the GFCI has time to react.



Now that's a tricky question. Very difficult to answer. We need to study the datasheet of the particular GFCI ( if installed ) to know how fast it is compared to the fuse and the triac. Normally GFCIs are set to get tripped at 30 milliamps, so there should be plenty of amps to tripp it, but how long duration of a ground leakage is needed to trip it?
A GFCI is a safety device that protects the user against potential lethal voltages on the chassis, so it should be as fast as possible.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 18, 2017)

2 days and a bag of pelllets, still going... I do have GFI’s installed in my home need to install more.
As for repositioning the auger, it is centered directly over the air intake so no matter where I position the plate one of the terminal’s will hit. As cheesy as it may be, it appears my best option is as Ssyco suggested, some type of insulation from the AI I have some rubber pads, I think I even have ceramic insulators.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 18, 2017)

Your old motor did not have the terminals that stick out.You can bend them,grasp behind them,on the plastic with pliers,bend with thumb or other pliers.Most auger mounting plates have a stop made into them,cannot see if yours does.Will leave picture. http://pellethead.com/product-tag/advantage-auger-motor-stop-plate/


----------



## Bugs (Dec 18, 2017)

bob bare said:


> Your old motor did not have the terminals that stick out.You can bend them,grasp behind them,on the plastic with pliers,bend with thumb or other pliers.Most auger mounting plates have a stop made into them,cannot see if yours does.Will leave picture. http://pellethead.com/product-tag/advantage-auger-motor-stop-plate/



Ya kinda, the original didn’t have spade connectors, it was hard wired. I am going to put heat wrap on them, I’ll go through my old radio antenna insulation and see if I can make something work.


----------



## Monica in France (Dec 18, 2017)

Stovensen : I too am accustomed to 30 mA protection . But I notice a lot of wall plugs in the USA have built in CGFI's.  I looked at one in Home Depot and it claims it trips at 5mA . They have them next to their basins in their bathrooms !
And I agree that the question of which blows quicker : a fuse or a CGFI , is a matter of specification.
But I put my money on the fuse as it is specified for the situation whereas the CGFI is a general concept and must handle all sorts of loads and avoid 'false alerts'  .

I think Bob's suggestion to bend the terminal out of harms way is very sensible.
And make sure the terminal in question is 'after' the motor , so if it did short it would test the CGFI and not cook the triac.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 18, 2017)

Bugs at home depot or lowes they have a neoprene weather strip that is self adhesive on 1 side you coul wrap your intake pipe. I use int on the englander to keep the auger noise down where they contact the shelf it works awesomely


----------



## stellep (Dec 18, 2017)

I've used a a piece of velcro stick on (either side) in these situations.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 18, 2017)

Thanks, those are both good ideas, I was thinking about lining the inside of the stove with foil insulation like used in a dish washer, for the same reason (noise) although it’s not to bad just a side panel  rattle now and then.


----------



## Ssyko (Dec 19, 2017)

That should help with noise immensely.


----------



## Bugs (Dec 27, 2017)

Thanks to all that helped me getting the old whit... working again so far so good.
Looks like I may have a combustion fan issue. Fan doesn’t start right away, fire goes out and fills the house with smoke, I’m guessing the fan motor is sticky after 25 years of use . I cleaned it well before re-assembly and oiled it with 3in1 oil, it does start eventually when I cycle thru the speeds. May be the next part tp replace.
Still worth it. She heats my little home well.


----------



## Rickenbackerman (Dec 27, 2017)

I just ordered a new one for mine as well since the cooling fan is rattling on the motor shaft.  The motor and blower fan still seem to be fine but I can't get the blower fan off the shaft - frozen on solid!  I ordered one off Amazon that has the housing and quick change setup since mine doesn't have that.  Should be nice to have for easy cleaning since the way it is now I have to remove the exhaust pipe and motor/housing just to get inside.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 27, 2017)

Bugs said:


> Fan doesn’t start right away, fire goes out and fills the house with smoke, I’m guessing the fan motor is sticky after 25 years of use



Probably just some dust bunnies that are stuck deep down in the space between the armature and the stator, thus restricting the rotation.
Easy to remove with a pipe cleaner and some canned compressed air.
You'll have to pull the blower in order to deep clean it. When doing this, try to spin the rotor by hand to check for any restriction.

The surface of the impeller before cleaning is a tell tale for combustion quality:


----------



## stellep (Dec 27, 2017)

This was a motor year for me.  I replaced the combustion motor in the fall. It would take minutes(3) to spin up and trip the vacuum switch. 
The motor was only two years old, the original had lasted 18
.  
I should have expected it as I had gone with the inexpensive sleeve-bearing motor.  The new one is ball-bearing spec, so it should last longer.  Can't beat the lifetime of the OEM Fasco motors though.

Then, a week or so ago, I started hearing the intermittent bearing noise of the convection motor, so I got one of those also.  I'll swap it out when the temps get out of the single digits here and keep the noisy one for spare. 

No oil ports on these newer motors.

So, in over 20 years I will have replaced:
these two motors(well 3) this year, 
three ignitors,
and the door and window gaskets, once, five years ago.

Not too shabby.


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 28, 2017)

stellep said:


> Can't beat the lifetime of the OEM Fasco motors though.



The blower motors in my Quest Plus are the OEM Fasco motors from 1998. The bearings show absolutely no signs of wear ( excessive clearance ).
Yes, they must be of a very high quality!


----------



## Bugs (Dec 31, 2017)

Yes I believe I have the same fasco a few years older,this is a picture from when I bought the stove, a vacuumed and put some 3in1 oil. Maybe the oil wasn’t a good idea.


----------



## Mt Bob (Dec 31, 2017)

Motors with sleeve bushings/bearings,can last longer,with oiling,but are much cheaper to make,and considered disposable,Motors with ball bearings use grease,as oil would not stay.Used to be an old skateboarders trick,wash the grease out of the ball bearings,and lube with high quality oil,you could go faster quicker,but would be replacing the bearings quite frequently.Many pellet stove blowers,esp. combustion blowers,have bearings that can be replaced,But I see a resurgence of cheaper combustion blower motors(again,seems to go in multi year cycles) of using sleeve motors.Hope this heels.You can always "oil" a ball bearing,with a needle(cheep insulin needle works) to make it last a bit longer,but is not a repair,just a patch.


----------



## Mark_ms (Dec 31, 2017)

Great thread!! Glad that your up and running!


----------



## Stovensen (Dec 31, 2017)

If the rotor on your combustion blower rotates freely ( when spinning it by hand for example ), then next it should be checked with an ohmmeter if the copper resistance of the stator winding is within specs ( 20 Ohm +/- 2 Ohm ). If this resistance is considerably higher, then a faulty thermal protector is most likely the cause.
The thermal protector is a miniature high limit switch in thermal contact with the stator winding deep inside the motor ( and of course electrically in series with the winding ). A real pain to replace, but not impossible if you have a well equipped metal workshop.
Bugs, what ohm-reading do you get, when you measure the copper resistance of the stator winding?

Thermal protector:


----------



## Bugs (Jan 2, 2018)

Stovensen said:


> If the rotor on your combustion blower rotates freely ( when spinning it by hand for example ), then next it should be checked with an ohmmeter if the copper resistance of the stator winding is within specs ( 20 Ohm +/- 2 Ohm ). If this resistance is considerably higher, then a faulty thermal protector is most likely the cause.
> The thermal protector is a miniature high limit switch in thermal contact with the stator winding deep inside the motor ( and of course electrically in series with the winding ). A real pain to replace, but not impossible if you have a well equipped metal workshop.
> Bugs, what ohm-reading do you get, when you measure the copper resistance of the stator winding?
> 
> ...



I will have to pull the cover and check, maybe a few days. I can get it going if I power up and let run for several minutes, the combustion fan will start.  Wife likes having fire in the cold weather.
I’m sure all these Original parts are getting tired.


----------



## stellep (Jan 2, 2018)

I had the same issue with my combustion fan some years ago.  It would squeak and stick on power up.  I could get it to start by spinning the motor cooling fan on the motor side of the firebox. But it would stick again the next day.

Not having the turbine oil that Fasco requires, I gave the bearings a healthy dose of Mobil 1 5w-30.  I had nothing to lose at this point.  The motor was still erratic for a couple of days and then started working again. 

Then I cleaned up the oil inside the stove that had flushed through the over-oiled motor.  Oops.  The suggested one or two drops is plenty.  I've got to lose that more is better mentality.

The motor ran flawlessly for 5-6 years after this with one drop of Mobil 1 every year.

I'm not recommending that you do this, only describing my experience for any interested folks.

Stovensen:  I could never figure out how to take these motors apart without destroying them.  Or I would have tried to replace the bearings.


----------



## Stovensen (Jan 2, 2018)

stellep said:


> Stovensen: I could never figure out how to take these motors apart without destroying them. Or I would have tried to replace the bearings.



If the thermal protector or the bearings 'went south' in one of my blowers, I wouldn't hesitate replacing them. I have the tools in my workshop to do it ( including a CO2 welder ).
On my Fasco blower motors the bearing end plates are welded to the stator housing, as you can see on my pic. A dremel with a grinding disk can easily grind away the four weldings on the endplates. After replacing the defective parts inside, all is welded back together.




Other motors use special clips instead:



And the four rivets holding the bearing and oil felt together can be drilled out with a 1 mm drill bit and afterwards replaced with 2.5 mm screws. I have a 2.5 mm tap to cut the thread.
Hardest part, as I see it, will be finding bearings of the right size and quality.


----------



## Mt Bob (Jan 2, 2018)

Stovensen said:


> If the thermal protector or the bearings 'went south' in one of my blowers, I wouldn't hesitate replacing them. I have the tools in my workshop to do it ( including a CO2 welder ).
> On my Fasco blower motors the bearing end plates are welded to the stator housing, as you can see on my pic. A dremel with a grinding disk can easily grind away the four weldings on the endplates. After replacing the defective parts inside, all is welded back together.
> View attachment 219541
> 
> ...


Time to calm down,Your thoughts and suppositions are great,your electronics knowledge is great,time to throw in some common sense.Have you ever replaced the small bushings,in one of these motors?Ya,did not think so.Have you ever found an overheat limiter in these small motors?Ya,did not think so.That stuff went away years ago,especially over here,in the 120 volt market,it lowered the prices by making the replaceable unit much cheaper.This is not new,at all.You can prove me wrong by posting the replacement of the small oilite bushings,and,the location/replacement of the overheat thermal switch.I really like your input,on pellet stove repair,but,seems to me,you are grasping at straws,and promoting repairs that cannot be reasonably done.Sorry,but,unless you show me a video,replacing a small bushing,in a FHM,please do not waste peoples time.


----------



## Stovensen (Jan 3, 2018)

Bob, it says "Thermally Protected" on the Fasco motor type-stickers. That is a statement we can trust. The thermal protector I described in a previous post is a very common, compact, reliable and inexpensive way to protect electric motors against overheating ( and transformers and solenoids as well ).
The internet has a lot of exact information on these components and they can be found on ebay at a favourable price:
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/thermal-protector

And like I stated earlier, the oilite sintered bronze bearings may be impossible to get in the correct size and even if that is possible, the quality may never be as good as the originals. At that point it's time for a new blower.
But many of the members on this forum are enthusiastic tinkerers with well equipped workshops like myself. Don't you think that we should inspire and encourage each other as much as possible?
Looking forward to hear more about Bugs' combustion blower motor


----------



## Stovensen (Jan 5, 2018)

Bugs said:


> Looks like I may have a combustion fan issue. Fan doesn’t start right away



Bugs, there's one suggestion that I forgot to add on this issue the other day: The bypass relay could be worn out ( unstable contacts ). One way to verify that the relay is unstable is to temporarily bypass the low limit switch. If the blowers run ok at start up with the LL switch bypassed, the bypass relay has to be the culprit.
I must be getting old and my memory getting slow, but now I remember that we have had this issue on the Whits many times before on the forum.
Good luck and take care. Keep us posted


----------



## Ssyko (Jan 5, 2018)

Im not stirring the pot but i have used these for automotive starters when i raced back in the 70’s
https://oilite.com/Products/Product-Line/ppl/1/metric/false?title=Oilite<sup>®</sup>

But if you know how to cross reference motors you can find a fair priced replacement a lot easyer


----------



## stellep (Jan 6, 2018)

Stovensen said:


> But many of the members on this forum are enthusiastic tinkerers with well equipped workshops like myself. Don't you think that we should inspire and encourage each other as much as possible?



This.  I may not actually try to perform rocket surgery,  but I enjoy reading about it


----------

