# Gasser, about to pull the trigger



## mustash29 (Aug 3, 2013)

Gassing, it just seems like the right thing to do, but there are so many options.  I've been researching for about 1.5 years now, and have narrowed the field somewhat.

If you have not seen my other threads, a lot of detail and pics are in them.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/englander-28-3500-furnace-install-mods.102100/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/woody-mustash.110700/

My stove was getting up there in age, but it did a decent job helping out.

I ran the Englander furnace last year.  It did a good job.  I have pretty much learned it's quirks.  It will get better this year with better seasoned wood.

But I am still burning 1 tank of oil in the winter and 1 tank in the summer for DHW & ambient losses through the oil boiler.  Upward of 500 gal is no longer acceptable at today's prices.  I still have hot & cold spots in the house.  I think we have had enough of "central radiant heat from the middle."

I have contemplated modding the Englander further.  Add secondary burn tubes up top, install a large Hilkoil in the roof, run a constant circ pump and atmospheric storage in an effort to heat my DHW and pre-heat my baseboard returns to the oil boiler.  I still forsee it being a semi-hack project, so maybe I should just go all out and do it right.....

I have looked at:

- Froling 20/30 + storage.

- Empyre Elite.

- Varmabaronen lambda & non lambda with exhaust fan + storage.

- Garn JR.  This really excited me, big tank and solar capable is a huge plus, but it won't fit inside, so I need a slab, outside boiler room, more property taxes, short run of piping to interconnect.  Would also be a hassle to move should I decide to relocate to another house.

And then I came across this tonight:

http://worcester.craigslist.org/ppd/3946068975.html

"Empyre Elite Wood boilers use half the wood of regular wood boilers. Indoor and outdoor models. Lowest prices of the year with instant rebates up to $1,000 during our Sizzlin' Summer Sales Event. Limited time only! Sale ends August 31st. Call 978-355-6343 x-231.
Higgins Energy Alternatives
140 Worcester Road
Barre, MA 01005
M-W 9-6:30, Th 9-8, F 9-6:30, Sa 9-4 "

That seems like a decent price for a decent gasser that would fit my limited mechanical area.  I'm thinking I could always run additional atmospheric storage with it, and that storage would also be suitable for integrating solar when the time comes.

I have to make some calls to clarify if this price is indeed realistic.

Any opinions?


----------



## goosegunner (Aug 3, 2013)

A recent poster had a rust through in less than a year with a Empire Elite. You might want to search and find that info.

Personally I would vote for;

Garn if you want simple and durable.

Froling if you like High tech and are not at all worried about getting parts in the future.

gg


----------



## flyingcow (Aug 3, 2013)

FWIW- i have the solo Inova 30 for 5 yrs. had good luck with it. Simple operation.  Good customer service. Not a Froling' but in the same efficiency class.


----------



## __dan (Aug 3, 2013)

The Froling is effortless and they really know what they are doing. The dedication to quality and engineering is obvious when you look at it and compare. It is normal in the market, the customer would expect to pay a little more for better quality, but expects to save money over the life of the install because of the better build quality, in longevity, or easier operation, less maintenance repair issues. The unit is obviously built to go the distance, but we don't have the experience of what the result is after 20 or 30 years of operation. I wanted to scavenge waste heat from the system into the house, so the inside install was better for me, in case firewood because scarce or difficult to obtain.

Your firewood thread is awesome and you certainly have a lot of high quality cordwood to feed whatever beast you decide to go with. Probably, storage with a gasser will make the most difference in your satisfaction with the install, along with insulation, siding, windows, and flashing of the building envelope. I did not see details of your zone distribution type but was assuming conventional house with HW baseboard. There is a big variance just in the system tie in to your loads and existing boiler. The market is not mature in this area and some of the things i've seen posted here, would never do. Isolating the boiler to limit parallel losses with autofailover to oil, and outdoor reset controls for the zones is a bigger, more expensive package. I would guess the low to high package cost could add $10K, depending on storage tank size, type, plumbing headers, and controls. The customer decides if he wants to build for five years down the road or thirty

If you're planing on moving in five years or less, you may not get the payback on the install. Especially if the house needs something for resale that would be better to spend the money on. The Garn could be the easiest choice for you as an outbuilding install is cleaner operation wise. I would think a floating concrete slab on a gravel bed would be low or no taxes because it "is not attached to the earth". When move time comes, with the right equipment you can lift the shed off the slab and then lift the Garn.


----------



## mustash29 (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm rural.  My neighbor runs a CB E Classic on a 4000 sqft house with lots of windows.  He is happy.  We do not smell it.  He ran it into May this year since we had a long chilly spring.  We had no issues.  He is a landscaper, fence installer, plow guy, etc.  Great neighbor, etc.

I am not interested in a typical OWB.  I sort of live in a "bowl" surrounded by trees.  2 acre lot but only 1/2 acre of lawn.  The trees are tall and mature.  If there is no wind smoke / smell can hang in the yard.  The house already has 3 flues, 6" oil, 6" stove, 8" zero clearance fire place (that we do not use).  It does not make much sense to instal a 4th outdoor chimney.  Ground level venting of the Garn has me a little concerned, as the boiler shed would go very close to the existing foundation.

We are already used to the seasoning & stacking arrangement we have used over the years to feed the stove.  It works well, keeps most everything outside untill it goes into the fire.  Easy to sweep the crumbs off the concrete floor daily.  That will eventually be covered with tile or slate so still easy clean up.

I think we are looking at the Empyre as a huge improvement in efficiency and comfort without having the larger investment in cost and space that the others require.  Sort of a K.I.S.S principle.  Adding some additional atmospheric storage will be do-able without much added complexity.  Boiler, pump, return water protection, HX.  Pretty simple install.

As far as concerns for the Empyre, the unit has been re-designed.  New door latches, warning light for load lever replaced with a pezio buzzer, stainless firebox liner, improved "creosote lip" where the refractory brick meets the fire box walls.  This was a major factor in the corrosion issue.  Tars were allowed to get behind the refractory and hit a cold spot.  The new style lip makes the drips stay on the fire side of the refractory, away from the water jacket.  The dealer I spoke to mentioned that many installs were done improperly, without return water protection valves, plumbed poorly (baseboard returns run directly back to the boiler), some even not using the proper corrosion inhibitor.  A perfect storm for rotting out ANY unit.

I work at a trash to energy steam power plant, so I am very well aware of corrosion and it's effects.  I have access to a water lab daily so I can run my own frequent tests to back up any annual testing the boiler requires.

I'm not sure about a move, been here since I built the place in '96, but one never knows what tomorrow may bring.

My buddies at work keep pushing the pellet stove / boiler idea.  I still enjoy the work of proccessing my own wood, weather is is freebie stuff or a log load delivered.  Truck, trailer, splitter, winch, cheap tractor all make my work easy and enjoyable.  I enjoy a good old fashined sweat occasionally after sitting in an office all day long.


----------



## treefrog359 (Aug 3, 2013)

mustash29 said:


> I'm rural. My neighbor runs a CB E Classic on a 4000 sqft house with lots of windows. He is happy. We do not smell it. He ran it into May this year since we had a long chilly spring. We had no issues. He is a landscaper, fence installer, plow guy, etc. Great neighbor, etc.
> 
> I am not interested in a typical OWB. I sort of live in a "bowl" surrounded by trees. 2 acre lot but only 1/2 acre of lawn. The trees are tall and mature. If there is no wind smoke / smell can hang in the yard. The house already has 3 flues, 6" oil, 6" stove, 8" zero clearance fire place (that we do not use). It does not make much sense to instal a 4th outdoor chimney. Ground level venting of the Garn has me a little concerned, as the boiler shed would go very close to the existing foundation.
> 
> ...


 

if I was you I would not go with the  empire elite stove or any other pro fab product.  they have very very  poor customer service. At least 4 times then sent the wrong parts that I need.  there are so many other issues with the redesigned stove.  poor insulation surrounding the hole stove, I could never keep any snow on the roof of my stove.  there is no room in the back of the stove to attach the lines, pump, and ball valves, plus other issues. just my 2 cents


----------



## __dan (Aug 3, 2013)

Took a look at the second thread, nice house.

Would agree with your buddies about the pellet boiler. I believe I saw in a thread here the pellet boilers are approved as the primary central heat source, and if so, that's what I would recommend as the cleanest and simplest install. Yank the oil boiler and go pellet boiler primary, year round.

I see you like making and burning cordwood. My recommendation would be to visit the dealers for the Empyre and Froling, Tarm in Lyme NH, and see the products first hand before buying. It will be obvious the Froling is not costing $5000 extra. What you will see is the Froling is delivering a lot more for the money and you may be willing to pay extra for the more that the Froling delivers.

Things to look at: The Froling runs the combustion zone at negative draft pressure with the draft inducer last at the exit of the boiler to the flue. This reduces smoke leakage to the house as the burn chambers are at negative pressure, and imo, the way they should all be. The Empyre seems to say it is forced draft, positive pressure in the burn chambers. If you look at the cast iron nozzle arrangement on the Froling with the secondary air coming in right under the iron, the stay clean primary chamber burn plates, the way the massive refractory is setup for easy cleaning, lamba controls, the Froling is thousands more in product extras delivered to you.

The way I look at is not the upfront cost - savings, but the cost over the life of the install. For a capital investment expected to last more than 20 years, what is 5 grand more averaged over 20 years. It is $250 annually. Now you have to look at the Froling and ask yourself if the added features will save you $250 annually by making your burn operations easier work for you. Will it save you $250 annually in your labor making your life easier. There are a lot of threads on this board from people who tried one boiler, stopped and tried another.

Tarm has a nice 400 gallon buffer tank to go with the Froling if you have 8 ft tall clearance, so you could stay pressurized and skip the HX. Upfront there is a cost difference, but over the life of the install there is zero cost difference, just a difference in your satisfaction with the install and differences in how much you have to fight with it or how well it runs by itself.


----------



## __dan (Aug 3, 2013)




----------



## mustash29 (Aug 3, 2013)

treefrog359 said:


> if I was you I would not go with the empire elite stove or any other pro fab product. they have very very poor customer service. At least 4 times then sent the wrong parts that I need. there are so many other issues with the redesigned stove. poor insulation surrounding the hole stove, I could never keep any snow on the roof of my stove. there is no room in the back of the stove to attach the lines, pump, and ball valves, plus other issues. just my 2 cents


 
Good points to discuss with the distributor when I speak to them next week.

I am looking at the indoor model 100, so any ambient losses would be into the house, not melting the snow.

The plan is to fire during both shoulder seasons and the dead of winter.  Once temps moderate I will shut down the wood & oil and run electric DHW during the summer months.


----------



## mustash29 (Aug 3, 2013)

_Dan:

IIRC, I read through your install thread some time ago, nice set up.  Don't get me wrong, Froling was my first choice, love it, but the cost and SPACE REQUIREMETS are my biggest hinderance.  My storage area / basement is 14 x 16 and it has to hold all of our stuff:  xmas, camping, coolers, Jeep accessories, garden stuff, boiler, water system, soon to be water softner, oil tank, indirect DHW, electric DHW.  Not much room left for 400 - 800 gal of BTU storage and the expansion tank.  It's like trying to fit 10 lbs of potatoes in a 5 lb sack.

Nice pic, but I see about 10 different circ pumps, well tank, exp tank & DHW tank.  Where's the storage?  You simply can't fit all that stuff in a coat closet like I have to work with.  Ceiling height is too low to accomodate the cost effective 400 gal Tarm tank, so I would be forced to go with multiple 300's or 200's, or modified propane tanks outside, not keen on that idea.


----------



## __dan (Aug 3, 2013)

You do seem to have some plan for the inside install. If the Englander is going, you will have that footprint and maybe that flue for the Froling.

Right next to the Englander, you probably have a spot in the basement slab with nothing in or underneath. You may be able to saw cut the slab and dig down two feet easy, make a waterproof box to set the 8 ft., 400 gallon, vertical tank into, and fill the box with closed cell foam.

I am plumbed and tapped for storage, have the footprint, but the tank is in the future because of the cost. Actually have a line on a beautiful 1000 gal stamped air receiver that I will buy from the scrap dealer when they gut and strip a plant that is closing. Have my eye on another, ~ 200 gallon extra heavy duty, but it has a large DHW tube bundle in it. I have constant reset mixed flow in the radiant basement slab and the Froling does turn down the fire to match the slab, but only with a half load of fuel and no slumbering. A full load of fuel with a warm slab and house would drive it into slumbering, but I'm not doing that. It's working perfectly with small fuel loads, but I will add the tank when the time for that comes.

Have a 10 ft x 10 ft pile of rough sawn red oak for house trim, cabinets, stairs, in the basement, blocking the path from the door to the tank location. That has to move to get the tank in. Have all the heat I want right now and am looking forward to winter to heat the slabs again.

The plumbing header has no ghost or parallel flow. I can make DHW and the header or oil boiler is cool. The circs are for the radiant zones and redundant, one can fail and I still have heat. There is no cost increase compared to zone valves, all 007s and 00Rs.


----------



## mustash29 (Aug 3, 2013)

I need to clean out a bunch of crap & find a new home for the old stove.  A buddy recently bought a house with an identical one of them in it, but his is in really bad shape, so he may be interested in mine.  I had already replaced the outter upper brick retainers / angle iron a while back.  The inner retainers for the roof bricks were replaced a few years ago.  Both of those jobs were not fun, ban-aids on a '94 model that has had a healthy workout over it's lifetime.  I had a friend from work do the welding.  I got it used for 100 bucks and it has served me well.  The problem was that my other half failed to properly latch the door on a few occasions, the stove overfired and experienced some warping & now needs more internal work.

I wanted an ash pan and a larger fire box, so we ran the Englander last year for the interm, did not have the time to finish my boiler research and winter was setting in.  It heats better than the stove did, but I know we can do better with a decent boiler and T-stat control via the HW baseboards.

I need to find a new home for the Englander.  Once it is disconnected, the boiler will go in that spot on that 27 foot 6" class A flue.  The oil boiler is on the other side of that wall and 1/2 level lower, so interconnection will be a breeze.

I already scored a 13 yr old stainless Crown Mega Stor MS40 indirect for 75 bucks, complete with Honewell A400 a-stat.  It had a tiny weep on the lower DHW inlet / drain.  My buddy tig welded all 4 piping penetrations to beef them up.

LR zone will stay as is, but get a programmable T-stat.  BR zone will stay as is, but get a programmable T-stat.

The end of the BR zone hits a 4' baseboard in the rec room.  That will be eliminated in lew of installing a proper 3rd zone for the rec room, then sheet rocked & trimmed once the piping is all set.  For now the floor can stay concrete, because it is more of a utility / mud room but we may finish it off more in the future.  We really don't want to fill it with storage tanks if at all possible.

4th zone will be a Modine type unit for the garrage, intermittent use when needed.

5th zone will be the DHW tank.  Abandon the tankless DHW coil on the boiler.  Run the indirect DHW outlet into an electric.

Get a real saw since mine just died, continue to get ahead with the stacks.


----------



## mustash29 (Aug 3, 2013)

How exactly are you running a Fro without storage?  Is that possible since you have a constant low draw from the radiant?

My regular e-mail is currently on the fritz, so all of my correspondence with Chris Hoskins from Tarm is unavailable.  I'm drawing from 1.5 yr old memory.  From what I remember being told, and what the local Tarm rep told us during the site visit was essentially that they would not even sell us a boiler if we were not hooking it up to storage.  I understand the more the better, but was essentially told no storage, no boiler.

This summer I found that the Empyre was redesigned, so it was an option.  And with the Garn Jr just being released, it just got us on the boiler hunt again.


----------



## __dan (Aug 3, 2013)

The Froling needs storage and is not rated to idle. I've been pretty clear what I'm doing is not supported and not recommended, and I'm not causing trouble by saying otherwise. I am also not idling or slumbering the boiler. I can understand that this is a new technology and not everyone will understand, but if you're a heating pro and have the background, there's no misunderstanding in what I have been saying. I also do not recommend homeowner installs. I have had my trade contractors license since 1989 and ten years wiring boilers for schools as a contractor.

The Froling does modulate, turn down the fire, above HWS setpoint. The basement slab is a high mass load and with small fuel loads, turndown of the firing rate, a three hour burn time daily does not slumber, it exhausts the fuel completely and ride through from the slabs at temp is easily two or three days in my house. The slabs do store and ride through and the insulating system of the house has conventional wall studs with an additional complete wrap of the house with r20, 3" nailbase polyisocyanurate OSB + foam board under the siding. I have both storage and very low heat loss.I was less than three cords for satisfactory heat for the season from October to now, and I've been burning the lowest quality stuff in the yard first and keeping the good stuff in reserve.

If you're looking for a how, exactly what, It's all there, if you want to spend another 50 grand for 2" rigid foam exterior sheathing and 3000 sf of all concrete radiant slabs. I have no idea what communication will help you. There is a learning curve and I have tried to help move things in the right direction and avoid loss due to, well, as a pro I see shoddy, hack, code and statutory violations all the time. I overbuild for the customer and wanted some of that for myself. However I am fully aware the cost of overbuilding is far more than the market can imagine paying for.


----------



## mustash29 (Aug 3, 2013)

Thank you for your insite, some very well said words.  

I grew up 35 miles from Three Mile Island.  I was in 3rd grade when unit 3 melted down.  Somehow I wound up doing 10 yrs in Navy nuclear power and have been burning garbage for the last 14.  Lots of "making hot water" experience.

I have to make some more calls, and maybe a few road trips, but I am getting closer.


----------



## flyingcow (Aug 4, 2013)

mustash, didn't read all the threads, whats the Empyre cost?

If you don't have room for storage, no biggie. Storage is(IMO) more for convenience than efficiency.


----------



## mustash29 (Aug 4, 2013)

6 according to this add, which is considerably less than I was quoted about 6 weeks ago.

http://worcester.craigslist.org/ppd/3946068975.html


----------



## willyswagon (Aug 5, 2013)

mustash29 said:


> 6 according to this add, which is considerably less than I was quoted about 6 weeks ago.
> 
> http://worcester.craigslist.org/ppd/3946068975.html


 
That's good pricing.
 I paid $7K for mine this time last year. I was able to get a 15% rebate from the province on the entire system, so that helped ease the pain.
It brought the boiler pricing down to $5950.

I see by the pictures that it is a phase two boiler.


----------



## arbutus (Aug 5, 2013)

I bought the prior Empyre for a hair under $5000, delivered, just under $5300 with tax.  Didn't know about the improved model.


----------



## mikefrommaine (Aug 5, 2013)

I'd question whether its an 'improved' model or just a different model.


----------



## arbutus (Aug 5, 2013)

From reading that ad and a couple others out there it appears that the Empyre Elite 100 now has a stainless firebox (liner?)
http://www.discountstoves.net/WoodBoilers-s/42.htm halfway down.
A quick glance at the Profab website shows nothing about an update.


----------



## flyingcow (Aug 6, 2013)

Just for kicks price out a tarm,eko, and other equvilents. I think i paid close to $7 for the innova and it was a sellers market at the time.


----------



## mikefrommaine (Aug 6, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> Just for kicks price out a tarm,eko, and other equvilents. I think i paid close to $7 for the innova and it was a sellers market at the time.


And don't forget the added costs of a heat exchanger, pump and controls since the empyre is not pressurized.


----------



## mikefrommaine (Aug 6, 2013)

arbutus said:


> From reading that ad and a couple others out there it appears that the Empyre Elite 100 now has a stainless firebox (liner?)
> http://www.discountstoves.net/WoodBoilers-s/42.htm halfway down.
> A quick glance at the Profab website shows nothing about an update.


Stainless steel: what manufacturers claim as an 'upgrade' when they can't figure out why their boilers are rotting out in a couple of years.


----------



## willyswagon (Aug 7, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Stainless steel: what manufacturers claim as an 'upgrade' when they can't figure out why their boilers are rotting out in a couple of years.


 
Stainless Steel: What all manufactures have to change to once they realize users think,
"It can burn wet wood" or "Why should I have to control my return water temperature"?

I have run a lot of business in my life, and the easiest one to make and keep successful are those that the customers has no input in the process, other than to pay for it.

I would never build or sell a solid fuel boiler as I have no way of controlling how they run it.


----------



## mikefrommaine (Aug 7, 2013)

willyswagon said:


> Stainless Steel: What all manufactures have to change to once they realize users think, "It can burn wet wood" or "Why should I have to control my return water temperature"?


 

There are plenty of other makers that have figured out how to make a boiler out of boilerplate. 

Maybe they have a magic wand that prevents users from burning wet wood???


----------



## flyingcow (Aug 7, 2013)

Also should have mentioned, i got a real close look at the Vigas and liked what i saw. Mark at AHONA seemed to be all about customer service.


----------



## JP11 (Aug 8, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> Also should have mentioned, i got a real close look at the Vigas and liked what i saw. Mark at AHONA seemed to be all about customer service.


Having talked to him for a couple of years before I bought one from him.... I would agree with you.  Great service before AND after the sale.


----------



## Dan Rondeau (Aug 30, 2013)

Brand New Econoburn Wood Boiler For Sale - Located in Putnam, CT

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/econoburn-150-brand-new.109661/


----------



## Noob2wood (Oct 17, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Stainless steel: what manufacturers claim as an 'upgrade' when they can't figure out why their boilers are rotting out in a couple of years.




Has your unit rotted out ?


----------



## Tennman (Oct 18, 2013)

Don't forget the BioMass. Lots of us successful users, it's still WAY up there as far a bang per buck. When you look at performance and ROI it's up there with the EKO, which says a lot based on the EKO users here. Every time I see that pic of Dan's setup I drool. If I had radiant I think I would have pulled the trigger on a Garn last year. But what I'm doing is now assembling a top of the line storage/circ system. In several years I may then upgrade to a Froling or maybe one of Heaterman's pellet rigs. Point is the BioMass or EKO are excellent "starter" boilers with, for me heating with propane, a ROI in less than 2 years. BTW, the upcoming season will be our fifth year running a boiler and first year with storage. So storage is not essential but I soon hope to experience what all the storage guys here rave about.


----------



## Coal Reaper (Oct 18, 2013)

Tennman said:


> Don't forget the BioMass. Lots of us successful users, it's still WAY up there as far a bang per buck. When you look at performance and ROI it's up there with the EKO, which says a lot based on the EKO users here. Every time I see that pic of Dan's setup I drool. If I had radiant I think I would have pulled the trigger on a Garn last year. But what I'm doing is now assembling a top of the line storage/circ system. In several years I may then upgrade to a Froling or maybe one of Heaterman's pellet rigs. Point is the BioMass or EKO are excellent "starter" boilers with, for me heating with propane, a ROI in less than 2 years. BTW, the upcoming season will be our fifth year running a boiler and first year with storage. So storage is not essential but I soon hope to experience what all the storage guys here rave about.


Storage is the bees knees its legs and its arms.  This coming from a guy who before six months ago has never ran a wood boiler, let alone one with storage.


----------



## bmblank (Oct 18, 2013)

I couldn't imagine running without storage. I'm annoyed with how often i have to make a fire, and i have to make about half as many as allot of others with storage.


----------



## Tennman (Oct 18, 2013)

Yeah.. the light really went off last season when I saw our boiler running flat out with seasoned wood. I'd been choking it down for years to minimize idling and maximize burn time since there was no place for excess energy to go when you open her up. Yeah... I guess I've been plowing a field with a race horse. Not looking forward to cold weather, but it's gonna be fun finally tuning the boiler to run like it wants to. But it's all good with me. I'm building the system in stages and the operator get smarter each year. I figger by the time I'm in my 90's I'll have a boiler that runs on one Viagra pill a day.


----------



## arbutus (Oct 18, 2013)

Tennman said:


> ...I figger by the time I'm in my 90's I'll have a boiler that runs on one Viagra pill a day.


 That's expensive heat.  Don't they cost $13 each or something?


My local scrap yard had a bunch of fine looking propane tanks in the pile.  A couple of 250 gallons, several 500 gallons and one 1000 gallon.
Available at 20 cents a lb.
I don't even have my boiler shed built yet.  Should I get a tank?


----------



## Coal Reaper (Oct 18, 2013)

arbutus said:


> That's expensive heat.  Don't they cost $13 each or something?
> 
> 
> My local scrap yard had a bunch of fine looking propane tanks in the pile.  A couple of 250 gallons, several 500 gallons and one 1000 gallon.
> ...


Yes! 75cents/gallon is a good price. A 500gallon tank is about 1000 pounds if i remember correctly. Go get em!


----------



## mustash29 (Oct 28, 2013)

Well, we have been contemplating a gasser for about 1.5 years now.  We saw some pre-season sale prices advertised and did some hard thinking.

These boilers have a bit of a mixed reputation.  They seem to have had their share of growing pains the first few years they were out on the market.  According to my local dealer and a lot of info that I dug up here on Hearth (this place is AWESOME), a few of those were issues with the initial design of the boiler, which has since gone through several revisions.  They now come with a stainless lower firebox liner, an improved air gate that redirects the primary air across the smoke curtian during the loading process, improved doors and door latches, and most importantly, in order to qualify for warranty coverage, they are now sold with a Low Temp Return Water Protection (Danfoss) valve as a "required" accessory for proper install.

My local dealer also informed me that the vast majority of the units that experienced rapid corrosion issues were units that were improperly installed, without a Danfoss or equivalent LTRWP device.  Many units simply used a pump and HX for a primary loop, some even ran their HW baseboard or water to air HX's at atmospheric pressure and returned that fluid directly back to the wood boiler.  Of course, some folks have a "one fire per season / always keep the firebox full" train of thought (instead of batch burns) that leads to extended idling / cycling.  And there are those who burn improperly seasoned wood.

I think member willyswagon hit the nail on the head with the following:

"I have run a lot of business in my life, and the easiest one to make and keep successful are those that the customers has no input in the process, other than to pay for it.  I would never build or sell a solid fuel boiler as I have no way of controlling how they run it."


----------



## mustash29 (Oct 28, 2013)

With all that being said, we decided we were going to delay the decision making process on a boiler and just run the stove or Englander 28-3500 furnace this year.



But I am a craigslist junkie.  



A 2011 Empyre Elite 100 was improperly installed in someone's house. It did not have any low temp return water protection (Danfoss valve) and developed a water jacket leak. The home went up for sale but would not pass inspection as the wood and crappy old oil boiler were hooked up to the same chimney flue.

Seller ran the Empyre through the ProFab warranty process. The unit was removed, factory refurbished with a stainless firebox liner, completely cleaned, re-painted, new refractory & gaskets installed, etc. Essentially a new boiler was returned to the seller and plopped in the walk out basement. Apparently this swap out cost about a grand for removal and re-delivery of the unit. The home had a nasty, narrow, hilly and off camber access path to the back yard and walk out basement doors.

The home buyer had zero interest in the wood boiler and spent 9000 installing a new oil boiler and indirect fired DWH tank.  

The local Empyre dealer recommended the wood boiler be sold for 4000. It was listed on CL for 3500. The dealer was the same guy who I had contemplated buying a new one from. He told me to jump on it like a hobo on a ham sandwich, and sold me a gallon of water treatment and the new style latch for the firebox door at cost.

I got the refurbished Empyre Elite 100, 2 sets of firebox rakes & flue brushes (old & new), some other misc chimney cleaning tools and fire poker tools, 1/2 gal of water treatment, a 30 plate brazed SS heat exchanger, 2 Grundfos 15-58 3 speed pumps and about 12 feet of copper pipe & fittings.

It took me 5.5 hours to get it out of his walk out basement, 25 miles home & into my walk out. I borrowed a friends 500 CC 4x4 quad with winch, rented a 4x7 Uhaul trailer, backed the trailer into his dual french basement doors, set to boiler on the trailer with an engine hoist and drove it out of there without spinning a tire or getting my truck tires muddy.

I installed wood landscape timbers on the feet as skis and pipe rolled it from my garrage into my walk out basement. Coming in via the slider was out of the question since there was already 3 cord of 1.5 year seasoned oak stacked outside that door under the deck and top tarped.

$16 and change to rent the trailer for a day + a bit of fuel to pick up and return the borrowed quad and rented trailer was WAY cheaper than the 300-400 I was being quoted to rent a skid steer with fork attachment.  My landscaper neighbor helped me out, but his tractor was too tall to fit under the other guys deck and his bucket is not a quick attach so the fork attachment was out of the question.  We had limited height and width clearance to work with.

I'm hoping to have it up and running with 330 gal of additional buffer / storage volume for about 5 grand total. That includes some plumbing mods to the house, 2 additional dedicated heat zones for the rec room & garage + an indirect fired DHW tank.

Slideshow pics are in reverse order, start at the end and go backwards.

http://s23.photobucket.com/user/Mustash29/slideshow/Empyre?sort=3


----------



## maple1 (Oct 28, 2013)

*The home buyer had zero interest in the wood boiler and spent 9000 installing a new oil boiler and indirect fired DWH tank*

Holy crap. Did you get a pic of that? 

Awesome find, awesome job. You guys should have a nice warm winter.


----------



## mustash29 (Oct 28, 2013)

The plan:

My chimney connector thimble is currently too low.  I have to swap the thimble and the first 3" section of Simpson Duravent HT pipe.

Then hang some sheetrock.

The Empyre will go where the stove / Englander currently resides.









On the other side of that wall and 1/2 level (4 feet) lower is my actual basement with oil boiler.  Not very far at all to run the primary loop, HX, Danfoss, etc.  I plan to install a 330 gal "oil tank" as additional buffer / storage volume.  The tank will go in the corner where the junk shelf is, boxed in with polyisocyanurate sheets or spray foamed.





Due to the height difference of the split level foundation, the 330 gal oil tank mounted either normal vertical or standing on it's end will still allow it to be the low point of the system, so the Emyre's 60 gallon water jacket will serve as expansion volume as well.  The Empyre has an overflow pipe tapping just below the water level guage.

I have not made any official drawings to post yet, but.....

Primary loop, atmospheric:  Empyre, Danfoss, Grundfos 15-58 charging the 330 oil tank, pump runs when boiler is in run mode (turned on), combuston fan runs as needed per the temp controller.  Will eventually configure a low stack temp shutdown control to kill the combustion fan and circ pump.

Secondary loop, atmospheric:  330 oil tank, Grundfos 15-58, 30 plate HX, pump runs when there is a call for heat.

Tertiary loop, pressurized:  My existing oil boiler, 121 K btu @ 1.05 gph, Taco 007-F4, living room zone and bedroom zone.  I need to add a 3rd zone for the rec room, 4th zone for spot heat in the garage via a home brew or modine type heater, 5th zone for a 40 gal Crown Mega store indirect (CL score for 75 bucks).





There is also the option of installing the Empyre electric back up kit, which includes a secondary temp controller and four standard 4500 watt electric water heater type elements.  For summer DHW I could bypass the 330 tank and use the 60 gallon Empyre water jacket to feed BTU's to the indirect.

I have also looked into heat pump DHW.

If I take down a bunch of trees and put some solar panels on the roof, I can feed that to the 330 tank as well.


----------



## mustash29 (Oct 28, 2013)

Any suggestions, comments, recommendations on pump sizing are grealty appreciated.

I'll probably do most of the rough in myself.  I may have to hire a plumber to help with the install of the addlitional zone valves, etc.

Currently running:

Burnham boiler, Beckett burner, 121 K btu @ 1.05 gph, 4 gpm tankless hot water coil.
One Taco circulator 007-F4.
BR zone = 32' baseboard, the last 5' strip of it hits the unfinished rec room before it returns to the oil boiler.
Living zone = 40' baseboard.
Since Aug '96 I've used 9126.77 gal of oil to the tune of $15,497..41. Typically a spring fill up will last untill fall, fall fill up will last untill spring, heating mostly domestic hot water.
Small stove was installed in fall '97. It ate about 2 cord per year. 
Large stove was acquired around 2000. Gradually wood use has increased to about 4 cord per year.
Englander 28-3500 installed Dec 28 2012

I currently have about 45000 btu of radiating capability from the existing baseboards.  5 feet of that is in the rec room on an interior wall.  That will be eliminated and moved to the west and north exterior walls.  How much to add to the rec room after eliminating that cheezy 5 foot section?  The room is 13 x 24 or about 330 sqft.

How much do I need in the 22 x 28 garage?  About 660 sq ft, R-19 walls, insulated steel 7 x 9 garage doors?  It usually stays about 40 out there even in nasty cold snaps.  I just need enough to take the chill off when I want to work out there.  Tired of the smelly 30 K btu propane salamander stinking up the place.


----------



## mustash29 (Oct 28, 2013)

maple1 said:


> *The home buyer had zero interest in the wood boiler and spent 9000 installing a new oil boiler and indirect fired DWH tank*
> 
> Holy crap. Did you get a pic of that?
> 
> Awesome find, awesome job. You guys should have a nice warm winter.


 

Nothing too elaborate looking, 40 gal Crown Mega Stor and a red oil boiler.


----------



## willyswagon (Oct 28, 2013)

You scored there! I'd put it up on cement blocks so you don't have to bend over so far to load it.
Can you send a couple of pics of inside the boiler. I'd like to see what changes they have made to it.


----------



## maple1 (Oct 28, 2013)

mustash29 said:


> Nothing too elaborate looking, 40 gal Crown Mega Stor and a red oil boiler.


 
Wow. Makes me feel better about my project cost.

Then again, if I had paid trade labour costs on all the hours I spent on mine, I'd likely be pushing six figures. 

Then again, there's no way the productivity of my labour would have justified trade labour costs.


----------



## ewdudley (Oct 28, 2013)

willyswagon said:


> I'd put it up on cement blocks so you don't have to bend over so far to load it.


+1  I put mine in the bucket of a loader before I installed it, and tried loading wood and going through the motions of cleaning at different heights, and ended up building a stand 22" high, which I'm happy with.


----------



## Clarkbug (Oct 28, 2013)

I would try to avoid using the water jacket of the boiler as an expansion area (At least, thats how I read your previous post.  My brain might not be processing it right....).  Better to keep that flooded I would think.

Sweet deal on the Mega-Stor.  Im jealous!


----------



## mustash29 (Nov 1, 2013)

Another member pm'd me asking about the updated fire box design, so I figured I'd post the pics in here for all to see.

Stainless firebox liner, with the improved creosote lip to prevent drips from getting behind the brick.  This is also what the removeable cover on the secondary air tunnel looks like:





Another shot of the secondary air duct cover:





Cover removed:





Top view of cover:





Bottom view of cover:





Right front corner of firebox, air comes down a duct along the right door jamb and enter the secondary air duct via this hole:


----------



## willyswagon (Nov 1, 2013)

Thanks for the pics. I did something along the same line. I arranged the brick in such a way that the upper brick was on such an angle that it was under the old style lip. To do so I placed a small strip of Koawool ceramic insulation behind the bottom of the lower edge of the upper brick.

I then used stove cement to seal the crack between the boiler side plate and the brick. Now any creosote runs down onto the hot brick and is burnt off.
It seems to have worked well so far.


----------



## arbutus (Nov 2, 2013)

Thank you for the pictures!!


----------



## mustash29 (Nov 2, 2013)

I have to modify my current wood stove wall thimble and raise it up so the Empyre will connect to it.  It's only 3 feet off the floor.  The Empyre is 4 feet tall.

I cleaned the flue today in preps for the job.  My plan is to use a couple of ratchet straps to support the weight of the chimney, remove the base support, remove the 18" tall thimble, remove the bottom 3' section of pipe, swap them and put it all back together.  The entire weight of the flue sits on that support.  Where it penetrates the fire stops within the chimney chase the cracks are packed with insulation.

Is that going to work?

Lower basement, stove flue on the right with the clean out cap.





The Empyre is going along this wall & hooking up to the 27' Simpson Duravent HT that is currently venting the Englander.  The Englander, old stove and junk shelf will be going bye bye.


----------



## mustash29 (Nov 2, 2013)

While I was up on the roof I also ran the brush down the oil flue, which had never been swept.  House was built in '96.  There was 1/4" of diesel soot in there.  A lot of it fell into the Burnham so it got a very thorough cleaning too.

NASTY mess to clean up.  We went through 4 bags in the old garrage / car canister vac that we had outside with the hose & a few extension hoses running into the basement window.  Time to junk that old vac now, LOL.


----------



## arbutus (Nov 3, 2013)

Good luck with the chimney height adjustment.  I had to do something similar in our old house for a wood stove but we were able to grab on, and push the entire stack up a couple inches and prop a couple of 2x4s underneath then grab on and lower it all back down on the new parts.  You will likely need bracing underneath the bottom edge of the stack, or use the support clamps sold for extremely long chimney assemblies and prop that in the air with wood braces while you are swapping things around.


----------



## mustash29 (Feb 1, 2014)

Atmospheric boiler + atmospheric storage = essentially increasing the total boiler water volume.....

I'm not a fan of the build it yourself tanks with the liners in them.

Folks have asked before about using home heating oil tanks.  Old ones are cheap, but need a lot of cleaning.  New ones could be cost effective.  The 330 gal "obround" design would really fit my space requirements well.....but everyone seems to think corrosion is going to be an issue.  I sort of have a hard time agreeing with that.  The boiler requires treatment chemical, so add enough chemical to treat the total system volume and all should be happy.

Poly tote tanks will not withstand the temperatures, but I found one of these at a rather reasonable price that is close to me:

http://www.hooversolutions.com/350-gallon-ibc.html


----------

