# englander 25 pah issues



## smelm0 (Dec 12, 2014)

1. very poor customer support. ok dvd and documentation but have only spoken to mfr once after I gave up on calling and emailed them. now my emails go unanswered.
2. unit is about a month old and in that time I've been disappointed in its performance( as in btu production). thought I'd b doing a lot of sweating as some of my friends report. here is the rest of my story:
a. have used predominantly green supreme. tried a few other brands with similar results-firebox when it on mode tends to b in the 425 area with hot air blowing off the unit in the 150 area. disturbed about the inefficiency of the heat loss. did see a significant uptick in temp with natures own pellet from tractor supply but they don't carry it now. I sit a heavy piece of metal stock on the door and rest it against the vents to try to capture more heat and send it into the room area.
b. unit operates with a remote in on off mode with a 1 degree swing. set at 72 and unit correctly cuts out at 73 but doesn't seem to kick on at 71. I often see room temps of 68. maybe it is on at 71 but takes some time to raise the rooms temp up to setting.
c. use about a bag a day but of late ,a little more than a week, experiencing sooting of the glass predominantly around the hinged portion and the bottom. the firebox is blackened too. notice smoke leaving the vent pipe up the masonry 3" flue liner to the roof which I don't think occurred prior. 
d. fire is yellowish for the first 3-5 inches then seems to orange up as it licks the bottom of the heat exchanger. upped the low air setting from 4 to 6 to c if I could make the fire hotter and taller. just a wee bit of bigness change really. nothing dramatic
e. if I really squeeze the door shut, I get a miniscule improvement but nothing significant. thinking maybe something minor with the gasket. bought a new one but haven't installed yet since unit is so new.

that's about it. looking for input to c if I can rid myself of sooting and get unit to perform better if that's a doable.

thanks


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## acammer (Dec 12, 2014)

Mode C sounds wrong, the PAH is suppose to operate in mode 3.  From what I understand ESW uses the same controller on a variety of stoves, and has different modes for their various stoves.  That very well may be part of your problem.  Running flat out 9/9 (LFF4/LBA9) I see around 200-210*F temps right at the heat exchanger.  It takes some time to get up to those temps, if you're short cycling on the thermostat you're never going to see optimum performance.  Your pellet consumption seems very low.  On high this stove should consume at least 4lbs/hr - a bag on high should make it about 10hrs, a full hopper just over a day. 

Secondly, if you can get an improvement you can notice by cranking down on the gasket, you probably need to go ahead and make sure that's sealed up better.  From what I've found you need to do everything you can with this stove to ensure you get maximum airflow.  I would get the LBA right up to 9, and then start increasing the LFF till you get to a place where you don't get black soot on the glass (you're still going to get the white/grey haze).  You definitely shouldn't have smoke out the exhaust, needs more air and less fuel for sure.

I'd get the gaskets checked and replaced as needed, make sure everything (including the vent piping) is well cleaned up.  Double check the mode and make sure that's correct.  Then I would crank up and start fine tuning - if you need maximum heat you'll want to get your combustion airflow up high (LBA 9) and then keep adding fuel (increase LFF) until you get to a rich condition (ie. sooting the glass, smoky tipped flames) and then back off the fuel a bit.  If you're looking to maximize efficiency at the expense of max heat you'll do the opposite - drop to the stock settings of LFF of 1, LBA of 4 , and then add airflow if needed to eliminate a rich condition.

You never mentioned the specifics about your venting - sometimes there are details about the exhaust or intake air that are significant.


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## smelm0 (Dec 12, 2014)

acammer said:


> Mode C sounds wrong, the PAH is suppose to operate in mode 3.  From what I understand ESW uses the same controller on a variety of stoves, and has different modes for their various stoves.  That very well may be part of your problem.  Running flat out 9/9 (LFF4/LBA9) I see around 200-210*F temps right at the heat exchanger.  It takes some time to get up to those temps, if you're short cycling on the thermostat you're never going to see optimum performance.  Your pellet consumption seems very low.  On high this stove should consume at least 4lbs/hr - a bag on high should make it about 10hrs, a full hopper just over a day.
> 
> Secondly, if you can get an improvement you can notice by cranking down on the gasket, you probably need to go ahead and make sure that's sealed up better.  From what I've found you need to do everything you can with this stove to ensure you get maximum airflow.  I would get the LBA right up to 9, and then start increasing the LFF till you get to a place where you don't get black soot on the glass (you're still going to get the white/grey haze).  You definitely shouldn't have smoke out the exhaust, needs more air and less fuel for sure.
> 
> ...


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## smelm0 (Dec 12, 2014)

thanx acammer for the quick reply
I'm unclear what you refer to as modes either c or 3. in the interim, I've snugged up the hinges, etc on the door. set lff to 3 and lba 9 and left air on burn at the factory setting of one. I reset the remote to hi lo instead of off and on. just thinking it might work better as with less soot maybe less short cycling you refer to. I clean the unit diligently each day with a vac and putty knife. don't find many clinkers. don't know if that's significant or not.
my setup in the living room is pretty straight forward. the unit is vent piped with 3" dbl wall for about 7' till it enters a flex steel single wall flue which goes the rest of the way up my fireplace chimney which is about 15' more of upward travel. the air enters also from the masonry flue. mine is 12". a masked 3" alum duct into 2" one which was supplied by the mfr. maybe 4' in toto.
must say that in the early going with settings at 1,4,1 and even full out at 9,9. the unit didn't push out enough heat but did not create any soot. just fly ash. also forgot to mention that I ringed the outside of the door glass with fiberglass to make sure it wasn't leaking fresh air there.
the unit is shut down for cleaning now and as I'm off to visit my mom in brooklyn won't b able to eval till tomorrow but will b able to view your comments on my cell if you reply today.
tomorrow might try the reverse as you suggested as in 1,4 and upping the air on burn from one to maybe 3.


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## acammer (Dec 12, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> thanx acammer for the quick reply
> I'm unclear what you refer to as modes either c or 3. in the interim, I've snugged up the hinges, etc on the door. set lff to 3 and lba 9 and left air on burn at the factory setting of one. I reset the remote to hi lo instead of off and on. just thinking it might work better as with less soot maybe less short cycling you refer to. I clean the unit diligently each day with a vac and putty knife. don't find many clinkers. don't know if that's significant or not.
> my setup in the living room is pretty straight forward. the unit is vent piped with 3" dbl wall for about 7' till it enters a flex steel single wall flue which goes the rest of the way up my fireplace chimney which is about 15' more of upward travel. the air enters also from the masonry flue. mine is 12". a masked 3" alum duct into 2" one which was supplied by the mfr. maybe 4' in toto.
> must say that in the early going with settings at 1,4,1 and even full out at 9,9. the unit didn't push out enough heat but did not create any soot. just fly ash. also forgot to mention that I ringed the outside of the door glass with fiberglass to make sure it wasn't leaking fresh air there.
> ...



I think Hi/Low is the way to go - start up is not very efficient, and it uses some decent juice to run the ignitor.  You definitely want mode 3 - with the stove down unplug and then plug back in the power, then press both the up and down buttons on the blower speed and that will show you what mode the stove is in.  LFF3 and LBA9 should yield a hot clean burn on high - you may have problems with that going out on the lower heat settings, you just have to test and see.  You'll also find that if you can run the stove for longer periods you'll get more efficiency and heat out of the stove - it takes a while to warm the heat exchanger up, but once it's warm it'll keep giving that heat for a while.  

I may have confused you about getting the most fuel efficient burn, you want to set up like factory (LFF 1 LBA 4 AOT 1) and then add air (LBA) as needed to eliminate any rich condition.  The AOT should always be set at one as I understand it.  Let us know how you make out.  I'm pretty new to my PAH as well and also looking to maximize heat out of it.  I've done everything I know how, I'm hoping to get some more insight from ESW.  Mike Holton is a forum member here on as well as a ESW tech of some sort and has a wealth of information on these stoves - he runs a PAH in his own home.  I'm hoping he'll chime in on one of these treads about getting more heat from the PAH.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 12, 2014)

smelm0... So you have 7+15= 22 feet of 3" flue? The manual states for runs over 15' you need to increase to 4". Also is your liner uninsulated? That could be hurting your draft further. I have a similar venting about  4' to a 15' high masonry chimney, but with a 5.5" liner. Is yours exterior chimney or interior? That will hinder/help your uninsulated liner.

I've noticed mine is quite susceptible to clogging up. Have you tried the leaf blower trick? Since mine started acting up I've had to do the leaf blower cleaning about every 2 weeks. Seems once it starts burning sooty, no amount of LBA will help since the restriction is limiting the flow.

I think the root cause after much troubleshooting is the gaskets on mine... or actually the stove surface seems to be warped not letting the gaskets seal. Not sure if new gaskets are going to help me or not.

As an aside, with a clean stove mine runs best at factory 1-4-1. For max heat it makes sense going a little higher but even at factory with the heat cranked up to 9 I worry how hot this stove gets... I don't even like running it on 9 let alone cranking up the other numbers! But I guess if your using a thermostat it wont run on 9 for too long. I've never bothered with a thermostat, conditions rarely change fast enough in a house that I can't get it to even out fairly well just making a change in the morning or evening and letting it run steady.


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## smelm0 (Dec 13, 2014)

OhioBurner© said:


> smelm0... So you have 7+15= 22 feet of 3" flue? The manual states for runs over 15' you need to increase to 4". Also is your liner uninsulated? That could be hurting your draft further. I have a similar venting about  4' to a 15' high masonry chimney, but with a 5.5" liner. Is yours exterior chimney or interior? That will hinder/help your uninsulated liner.
> 
> I've noticed mine is quite susceptible to clogging up. Have you tried the leaf blower trick? Since mine started acting up I've had to do the leaf blower cleaning about every 2 weeks. Seems once it starts burning sooty, no amount of LBA will help since the restriction is limiting the flow.
> 
> ...



dear ohio burner and acammer
last run at mode 3 with 3,9,1 settings produced a worse result: lower temps, more soot and too much build up of pellets on the burner pot for efficient burning. basically think it was suffocating itself. might b related to the increase of feed. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





inside view shows too many pellets which are basically smoldering, creating little heat and much smoke. not a warm house in the least either.
as to the length of flue and ohio's experience, the only time I spoke with esw, they thought that my lack of btu's was a result of my 7' of 3" going into a single wall 5" flue they wanted it 3" all the way up. they thought too much draft wicking away heat from the firebox. I told them I had a ss 3" flex pipe about 15' long and they told me to run with it. my temps at the firebox still were around 425 and air exiting around 150.nothing really changed in terms of performance except that over time more and more soot and smoking has developed. 
what I'm doing today: have reset unit to 1,6,1 and it is in mode 3 still. will do a thorough cleaning as I always do. I'm unfamiliar with the leaf blower cleaningbut I sense that you're on to something. you guys will have to get me up to speed there. I have a leaf blower and its electric so should b convenient to use indoors. I bought gasket material at lowes yesterday so I can renew the gasket which I've stated is only a month old. will test out some with a dollar bill when the unit is cooler. as to warping on ohio's unit, gaskets make up for the lack of precision. the pellet body is steel so it moves around a bit as it expands and contracts with heat, unlike cast iron. but for $12 at lowes you can get .625 of gasket rope and a tube of silicon high temp sealer and give it a shot. if your gasket is young like mine, I tend to think its not the issue and I'm beginning to get more interested in the leaf blower thing. will try to source it till I hear from you guys about it.
I have a bit over another month for my 90 day refund from home depot. am also leaving for fla on 1/1 ish till spring. been mulling over just returning it and whatever pellets I have remaining and relying on my englander wood stove to see me thru from the end of march. I've been using the englander wood stove for about 10 yrs now and although its not the most efficient, it always works well enough. it was the main reason I went with their pellet stove. just can't believe the pain in the butt this has turned into.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

The stove must be off and cold, do all of your brush work and deep cleaning first (ash traps, combustion blower, and so on goes the list) you end the cleaning session with the leaf blower it will get stuff that you left behind or didn't quite reach.   

Leaf blower is used out doors, you use the vacuum capability that must be there to use it on a pellet stove.

The leaf blower is used as a very high flow rate air pump, you place the vacuum pipe around or sealed against the vent pipe,  and make certain you leave the door open or disconnect the vacuum switch tubing from the stove side (this is to protect the diaphragm in the switch from being ruptured (some switches are delicate it seems).

My switch must be made out of thick plate steel because I do not open the door or remove the tube from the stove side.


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## smelm0 (Dec 13, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> The stove must be off and cold, do all of your brush work and deep cleaning first (ash traps, combustion blower, and so on goes the list) you end the cleaning session with the leaf blower it will get stuff that you left behind or didn't quite reach.
> 
> Leaf blower is used out doors, you use the vacuum capability that must be there to use it on a pellet stove.
> 
> ...


thanks smokey and others.
here's where I b as of now. unit cleaned of major soot issue. disassembled 7' of vent pipe to 3" flex vent connector. lots of sooted up ash. brushed and ash vac'd. leaf blower would have b done in living room tee clean out but I can't seem to find the attachments to make the blower into a vac. vac'd out end of combustion fan as best I could. do not have a gasket for it so wouldn't disassemble same. 
unit set on mode 3 and 1,6,1. its controlled with remote set for 73 with a 1 degree swing on the on and off pattern.it didn't take much but less than an hr for the firebox to reach 450 and the air off the vents at 150. 
	

		
			
		

		
	



the flame is pretty good but I think still a little weak nearest the heat exchanger. the unit in little over an hr is showing 460 on the firebox and 165 at the air vent. you can c once again that mr soot is forming on the left corner hinge side. it will I expect continue to expand down and toward the handle side, leaving a u shaped unsooted portion in the center which will covered with fly ash after 24 hrs of continuous operation. also, still see some smoke not too much exiting the flue at the top of the roof. think this means that the burn can b improved upon. have 3 bags of another brand of pellet. just might throw them in to evaluate performance.
then the only 2 things left for me to try are replacing the door gasket and cleaning out the combustion fan but I'm getting pretty well p****d off already and thinking since I'm leaving 1/1, might just as well use it as best I can till I leave. then return it for full refund with whatever pellets I have and do the best I can with my wood stove alone when I return to ny from fla end of march.
really disappointed in this unit. can't fathom why a 450 firebox only produces a 150 current of air. where are the 300 degrees going??? thought of placing some 1/4" flat stock into each of the vents slots and c if I can capture more heat. still haven't. just can't c myself struggling some more and still coming up short so to speak.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 13, 2014)

smelm... seems like your having very similar problems to me. I don't think Englander gave you good advice on the vent pipe situation (just imho) but that may or may not even be related. Your not getting enough air flow. At least now your not. With all that soot your going to be clogging your exhaust up. If your venting is restricted, your not going to do much good even going up to 9 on the LBA. I tried that with mine. When its clean, adjusting the LBA makes a noticeable effect, when its dirty I can take it to 9 and not see a change. When I had everything coated with soot, sometimes the soot would even be burning on the glass when I opened the door. Pellets would be built up and smoldering (still burning even after the stove went through shutdown). Flame would be dull orange and lazy, if I opened the door the flames would even come out through it sometimes. The regular and 'monthly' cleanings were not fixing the problem. The leaf blower trick (there is a thread about it here recently, try a search, or look up youtube for video) really helped me so I think things were clogged up somewhere behind the exhaust chambers. Basically I just pop off the rain cap on my chimney and place the leaf blower suction side into the liner and seal it with a couple wraps of duct tape. Open up the stove door, and turn the power on to the leaf blower. I bang on the back of the firebox while its running to loosen stuff too. It burned clean and normal for a while after each LBT cleaning, but I had to do it again after 2 weeks. 

I think it was Smokey who said in my thread that these stoves are 'self polluting'. Great description. Even a great working stove without proper cleaning and maintenance will eventually go downhill. But just about most things that can go wrong will cause this to accelerate, tough part is figuring out exactly what is causing it. The cleaning got mine back to normal but whatever problem that's causing the 'clog' is still there. My guess on mine currently is my gasket issue. I think the air leak is just making the burn a little dirtier and causing the stove to need to be cleaned much more frequently. I haven't had a chance to go anywhere yet to look at gaskets. A the center of the door at the top the stove is bowed in about 3/16", and around 1/8" bow on in the middle of the ash pan. But its the ash pan that is looser. The door has a huge and more compressible gasket. The ash pan has that flat wide gasket. I'll have to figure out if I can fit a thicker gasket on the ash pan. Right now I can actually insert a dollar bill into the ash pan while its closed shut, and also while half through the gasket I can move it left to right up to the ash pan latches on each side.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

You never do a leaf blower cleaning in the house.  

Where is your OAK going there are length limits on that as well as there are limits on the placement and size of the OAK line, just as there is on the exhaust vent.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

Should not be able to insert dollar bill past the gaskets ever.

Air leaks screw up the air flow through the burn pot and makes for a dirty (ashy, sooty) burn which in turns makes more ash end up in the works and decreases heat transfer and so forth and so on.


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## smelm0 (Dec 13, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Should not be able to insert dollar bill past the gaskets ever.
> 
> Air leaks screw up the air flow through the burn pot and makes for a dirty (ashy, sooty) burn which in turns makes more ash end up in the works and decreases heat transfer and so forth and so on.


dear smokey and ohio
kind of distressing to b on our own and relying on our own experience and ingenuity but hey that's where we are.
I thoroughly agree with both you guys that these units and prob all pellet stoves are self polluting. so scrupulous cleaning is the tix. as for me, as I said the co. didn't think my setup was a negative just wanted me to make sure it all was 3". 
the big issue here is 2fold. one I'm creating heat in the firebox and losing at least 300 degrees as it exits as hot air. this has always been the case since I bought the unit a month ago and was hypothetically clean. why am I having 450 temps in the firebox and 150 air temps as it exits the unit????
secondly, if as smokey says I can't avail myself of the leaf blower technique since my vent exits thru my masonry fireplace 12" flue, I'd have to address cleaning of the combustion fan directly. have been a bit head shy to do that without a backup gasket.maybe frustration will get the better of me. my house is 70 and the outside is 35 so even with bad combustion I'm comfortable but realize that this will not last.
ohio: thanks for your lengthy feedback. with the kind of gasket situation you describe, I'd jump on a replacement. the mfr lists a $30 deal? I'd just buy a .625 or 1/2" gasket with silicon high heat sealer and just do it. from depot or lowes, etc not more than a 10 min. job really. why procrastinate???
smokey: my outside air kit piggy backs the vent but instead of attaching to the 3" flex pipe it just hangs over what was the fireplace flue but now is just a block of fiberglass and a shelfthe rest of the run is 12" masonry flue. it basically sits on the fireplace shelf. and can access fresh air there. its 3" alum duct with a mesh protective cover snaked down to a 2" alum duct which was supplied by the co.all neatly snugged up with fiberglass to protect us from the elements.maybe 4'
 total length. 
still think there's just a tweak out there for my situation and then I can take it to the bank. if not, thinking a more expensive stove like the quadra fire is in my future. still vacillating. will do the dollar test tomorrow when the unit is cool but just can't seem to swallow a gasket prob so early in a month of use


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## smelm0 (Dec 13, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> dear smokey and ohio
> kind of distressing to b on our own and relying on our own experience and ingenuity but hey that's where we are.
> I thoroughly agree with both you guys that these units and prob all pellet stoves are self polluting. so scrupulous cleaning is the tix. as for me, as I said the co. didn't think my setup was a negative just wanted me to make sure it all was 3".
> the big issue here is 2fold. one I'm creating heat in the firebox and losing at least 300 degrees as it exits as hot air. this has always been the case since I bought the unit a month ago and was hypothetically clean. why am I having 450 temps in the firebox and 150 air temps as it exits the unit????
> ...


oh forgot: peeps make a big deal about pellet brand. I've been using green supreme from depot. some peeps like it some don't. since I'm new to this biz I only know that when I used natures own from tractor supply I got a significant heat rise, almost 40 degrees. I have just 3 bags left so I think I'm going to use them now and eval. others I c swear by soft wood pellets and others this and that. why there's so much diversity is beyond my understanding. these units are pretty dumb downed delivery sys for burning pellets. shouldn't vary too much unless there's a lot of spin out there. maybe finding the right pellet for the right stove is key. have friends who swear by lignetics. others green supreme. others almost anything. hard to find the right path here.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

That OAK situation is not ideal, the "outside" air may not be fresh since is directly below the exhaust even though the exhaust is higher it than the minimum 3 feet from the OAK termination will depend on whether or not enough of the exhaust gets sucked downward to cause you an issue or reduced to insignificance before any of it enters the chimney and gets into the OAK .

To get more heat out of the exchanger the second of the lower three settings may need lowering, which if the air coming through that OAK is compromised will further degrade the burn.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 13, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> the big issue here is 2fold. one I'm creating heat in the firebox and losing at least 300 degrees as it exits as hot air. this has always been the case since I bought the unit a month ago and was hypothetically clean. why am I having 450 temps in the firebox and 150 air temps as it exits the unit????


I've never measured the 'air temp' coming from the blower but its never going to be firebox temp. The blower is fairly strong on the PAH and moves a lot of air too, so compared with another stove with a slower blower the air will be lower temp, but there will be more of it, so its equal in heat. I'm not sure if 150 is low for the PAH or not, I'll try to rig something up to test mine or maybe someone else will know. I don't believe the cheapie PAH is going to be as efficient as something like a Harman or that Italian stove that I remember reading about, but the difference shouldn't be huge.


smelm0 said:


> secondly, if as smokey says I can't avail myself of the leaf blower technique since my vent exits thru my masonry fireplace 12" flue, I'd have to address cleaning of the combustion fan directly. have been a bit head shy to do that without a backup gasket.maybe frustration will get the better of me. my house is 70 and the outside is 35 so even with bad combustion I'm comfortable but realize that this will not last.


You have the same setup as mine. Just put the leaf blower on the top of the masonry chimney. 




smelm0 said:


> ohio: thanks for your lengthy feedback. with the kind of gasket situation you describe, I'd jump on a replacement. the mfr lists a $30 deal? I'd just buy a .625 or 1/2" gasket with silicon high heat sealer and just do it. from depot or lowes, etc not more than a 10 min. job really. why procrastinate???
> smokey: my outside air kit piggy backs the vent but instead of attaching to the 3" flex pipe it just hangs over what was the fireplace flue but now is just a block of fiberglass and a shelfthe rest of the run is 12" masonry flue. it basically sits on the fireplace shelf. and can access fresh air there. its 3" alum duct with a mesh protective cover snaked down to a 2" alum duct which was supplied by the co.all neatly snugged up with fiberglass to protect us from the elements.maybe 4'
> total length.
> still think there's just a tweak out there for my situation and then I can take it to the bank. if not, thinking a more expensive stove like the quadra fire is in my future. still vacillating. will do the dollar test tomorrow when the unit is cool but just can't seem to swallow a gasket prob so early in a month of use


I only did the dollar bill test a few days ago and have not had a chance to get to a store. And I'm working 7 days straight through next Thursday so not sure how soon it will be. But ok so I can look for what you suggest for gasket, for the door, but what about the ash pan? Its gasket is entirely different and I don't even know if the door can shut with a thick gasket. I will have to look at it when I get home from work tonight. And just like you I'm in a bit of disbelief my newly installed stove needs new gaskets after only a few weeks. Its rather obvious they did not check the gaskets on the refurb, unless the stove warpage happened since I put it in. 

Also if your fresh air intake runs up into the chimney... does that mean your chimney is not sealed at the top? Your single wall liner (uninsulated) might run too cool maybe? That would be hurting your draft, and it seems these Englanders need all the help they can get drafting. My liner is uninsulated too fwiw, but its an interior masonry chimney with a plate at the top that's sealed. Its kind of funny though... there were other members on here that said my drafting might be inadequate that I ran 3" just between the stove and the chimney (4'?) that I should have used at least 4". Yet ESW tells you that you can run 3" for 22' which goes against all common advice and what they specify for installation in the manual.

Oh and sorry for the lengthy posts, I do get bored sitting here at work staring at all these computer screens for hours. Hope some of it helps.


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## smelm0 (Dec 13, 2014)

like your thinking smokey....
when I installed the oak it was a foot or more away from the flex pipe. they're both in the masonry flue and quite separate. I'll check the mesh at its end tomorrow to c if its clean or cluttered with debris. 
you have to b more specific on settings. think you mean the middle setting which is air on burn which is now at 6 but I suspect is not fully functional. think you might b on to something with the oak. will try to troubleshoot tomorrow with an eye toward cleanliness and sealing at the junction where it transitions from 3" alum to 2". I suspect air is getting in to undermine the flame and I don't think its the door gasket. just might b???? as I understand the stove. the combustion fan both pull fresh air in and burned air out. 
still the firebox is 450 and shouldn't that translate into a hotter air temp on exit????


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> like your thinking smokey....
> when I installed the oak it was a foot or more away from the flex pipe. they're both in the masonry flue and quite separate. I'll check the mesh at its end tomorrow to c if its clean or cluttered with debris.
> you have to b more specific on settings. think you mean the middle setting which is air on burn which is now at 6 but I suspect is not fully functional. think you might b on to something with the oak. will try to troubleshoot tomorrow with an eye toward cleanliness and sealing at the junction where it transitions from 3" alum to 2". I suspect air is getting in to undermine the flame and I don't think its the door gasket. just might b???? as I understand the stove. the combustion fan both pull fresh air in and burned air out.
> still the firebox is 450 and shouldn't that translate into a hotter air temp on exit????



Not if the exhaust system is pulling out a pile of it and sending it up the flue.

You might not see anything on that OAK since it is the loss of oxygen in the exhaust air that if sucked into the OAK that will degrade the burn although sucking crud in doesn't help after awhile it lowers the volume of air that can be sucked in.  Now screens on OAKs can also be a problem because the air flow can get reduced.  You want a screen that has far more open area than blocked area and is small meshed enough to keep bees and other flying nest builders out.

There is no cap or screen on my OAK during burn season, both the exhaust vent and the OAK are plugged during the no burn season.


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## smelm0 (Dec 13, 2014)

OhioBurner© said:


> I've never measured the 'air temp' coming from the blower but its never going to be firebox temp. The blower is fairly strong on the PAH and moves a lot of air too, so compared with another stove with a slower blower the air will be lower temp, but there will be more of it, so its equal in heat. I'm not sure if 150 is low for the PAH or not, I'll try to rig something up to test mine or maybe someone else will know. I don't believe the cheapie PAH is going to be as efficient as something like a Harman or that Italian stove that I remember reading about, but the difference shouldn't be huge.
> 
> You have the same setup as mine. Just put the leaf blower on the top of the masonry chimney.
> 
> ...


hey ohio
well, my temps show a 450/+or - on the firebox with a simple wood stove thermometer. then I get a rather disappointing 150 heat coming off the air as it exits the louvers. you need to start measuring your performance. its cheap under 10 dollars or a bit more..but where is my 300 degrees going?????smokey thinks I need to look at the air intake. maybe its smothered with debris in the chimney flue. don't thing so. but my flame is not what I'd like. my friends harmans insert burns like a 4th of july fireworks. mine is more like boy scout hot dog event. his flame shoots high like 18" and is straight up like a tower of sparks. nothing like what we have. but obviously his unit is 2.5 times ours in cost. still I was hoping for a better result....


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## acammer (Dec 13, 2014)

You've definitely got an airflow problem if you can't get a clean burn even with the lff on 1.  If you can rule out a gasket leak, it's time to take a hard look at the intake air, and the exhaust.  This things not a Harman, bit it's not junk either.  I see 180-210*F with a stove thermometer stuck on the grill.  The PAH has that strong convection blower so you'll see lower temp air, but a lot more of it, it's actually a more efficient heat exchange that way.  180*F if I run LFF 1 LBA 4 and 210*F if I run LFF 5 and LBA 9.  Neither of those setting produce any black soot on the glass, just light grey.  The burn pot doesn't get built up with any unburned fuel, no smoke at all in the exhaust.  I can run a few days straight like that, it never loads up and goes dirty.  Until the airflow problems are fixed you'll never get good heat.


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## smelm0 (Dec 13, 2014)

acammer said:


> You've definitely got an airflow problem if you can't get a clean burn even with the lff on 1.  If you can rule out a gasket leak, it's time to take a hard look at the intake air, and the exhaust.  This things not a Harman, bit it's not junk either.  I see 180-210*F with a stove thermometer stuck on the grill.  The PAH has that strong convection blower so you'll see lower temp air, but a lot more of it, it's actually a more efficient heat exchange that way.  180*F if I run LFF 1 LBA 4 and 210*F if I run LFF 5 and LBA 9.  Neither of those setting produce any black soot on the glass, just light grey.  The burn pot doesn't get built up with any unburned fuel, no smoke at all in the exhaust.  I can run a few days straight like that, it never loads up and goes dirty.  Until the airflow problems are fixed you'll never get good heat.


dear ohio
please spend the $12 or so for gasket and silicon sealer and see if you arrive at a better marriage. dirty burns are not cool.
let us know how you fare. hope it'll delay the intervals that you'll need to clean the unit, etc.
dear acammer and smokey
you both are pointing toward the air intake. I have a mesh sock over the end of the 3" alum vent to 2" mfr air kit inserted in the masonry flue about a foot away from my flex pipe but in no way interconnected. maybe it's a bit  clogged. will try as smokey advises just to leave fully open and eval
will do tomorrow but should b able to c if natures own pellet makes a diff or not in the interim. will load a bag tonight.

a 300 degree lose from exchanger to air exit.... what's that about????? would expect more like a 200 degree drop like from 425 to 200. then we'd b toasty all winter long....

what gives with this new england pellet ad????


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 14, 2014)

Well I do measure with an IR gun plus I leave a magnetic thermometer on the hottest point on the side of the stove. I've never worried about the air temp since that will change with your blower speed and seem counter-intuitive (you could see the actual temperature decrease even if the heat output increases as you increase the blower speed for example). But for the heck of it I strung up a grill surface temp gauge in front of the louvers about an inch air gap to make sure heat isn't conducting through the metal (like 400 degrees right below the louvers). I get about 140-145ºF with the heat/blower set at 4-9 (and factory bottom three settings). Acammer - at what heat settings is your 180-210? You gave the bottom 3 but not the main settings. I assume 9? But yours may read high if its directly touching the metal I would think. I was getting about 215º on the metal between the slots, and of course right below the slot it jumps a couple hundred degrees quickly. I'll run it up to 9 later and check it, but my living room was nearly 80 degrees even with this on 4 yesterday (was in high 30's and low 40's yesterday here).





I plan on replacing gasket as soon as I can get to a lowes or somewhere that has one, probably will be next weekend. Still got to figure out what size I'll need, I was really late getting home last night and just did a quick pot scrape. The ash pan is full so would have to go out a dump it and probably was going to make a mess I'd have to clean up in the bottom of stove, and I've been to sleep deprived as of late so I didn't even touch it. Tonight when I get home I'll pull the ash pan and try to figure out how much thicker a gasket I can get in there. Then there is the hopper lid too, got to figure out what size for that. Yep all 3 gaskets on my stove don't seal. I have 3 other wood stoves, 2 of which have been running for like 6 years and I've never changed a gasket yet.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> still the firebox is 450 and shouldn't that translate into a hotter air temp on exit????


I will attempt to explain the difference in temperature.
Heat exchangers transfer heat. Seems self explanitory. But heat is not measured in degrees. Temperature in degrees = amount of heat x specific heat of the substance / mass of the substance. 
So there is a small volume of very hot air moving on one side of the heat exchanger and a larger volume of air moving on the other side of the heat exchanger. Since the air on both sides has basically the same specific heat (the amount of heat needed to raise the temperature by one degree) the output temperature will be

output temperature = input temperature x input volume / output volume

If the combustion blower is moving 80 CFM and the convection blower is moving 200 CFM and the firebox temperature is 450 (made up numbers) The convection temperature would be

450 x 80 cfm / 200 cfm = 180

This would be for a heat exchanger that is 100% efficient. Unfortunately heat exchangers are not and account for most of the stoves inefficiency. So we take the 180 and multiply it by the efficiency rating (typically 76%) and get an output of

180 x 0.76 = 137

So your 150 output sounds reasonable. Reducing the convection setting will increase the air temperature, but will reduce the efficiency and the amount of heat transfered. Heat exchangers work best with the biggest difference in temperature input to output.
That concludes the physics lesson for today. I hope that I have helped you to understand heat transfer better.
Harvey


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 14, 2014)

Thanks Harvey, that was what I was trying to get at but couldn't explain it well. 150º sounded reasonable for air temps I thought but have never measured the actual exit air temp until yesterday. That does sound low if we're talking about the stove on max though, but so does the 450ºF firebox temp (think mine was more like 600-700º on a 9 if I remember correctly, around 900º at the top of the glass).


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

OhioBurner© said:


> Well I do measure with an IR gun plus I leave a magnetic thermometer on the hottest point on the side of the stove. I've never worried about the air temp since that will change with your blower speed and seem counter-intuitive (you could see the actual temperature decrease even if the heat output increases as you increase the blower speed for example). But for the heck of it I strung up a grill surface temp gauge in front of the louvers about an inch air gap to make sure heat isn't conducting through the metal (like 400 degrees right below the louvers). I get about 140-145ºF with the heat/blower set at 4-9 (and factory bottom three settings). Acammer - at what heat settings is your 180-210? You gave the bottom 3 but not the main settings. I assume 9? But yours may read high if its directly touching the metal I would think. I was getting about 215º on the metal between the slots, and of course right below the slot it jumps a couple hundred degrees quickly. I'll run it up to 9 later and check it, but my living room was nearly 80 degrees even with this on 4 yesterday (was in high 30's and low 40's yesterday here).
> 
> View attachment 147519
> 
> ...


dear ohio
it seems when my unit is running more properly I'm showing the same temps on my oven kitchen stove hanging over the louvers as you. sometimes I get it almost to 170 when the firebox is approaching 475 as measured on the left side as you do with a wood stove thermometer. the remote is set to keep the main area around 70 and it does that for what I would say is 15 hrs then with the build up of soot and inefficient burning the temps go down. the firebox running at 300 and the air at maybe 110. btw, I balance a heavy piece of metal on the door to radiate up more heat. that's the silver bar in the photo below the oven thermometer.
where I'm at now: unit on mode 3-settings 1,6,1 ran for about 15hrs before sooty burning is slowing it down.


I'm after the oak this morning. will remove the sock over the end hoping as smokey has suggested, leaving it open will allow more fresh air to b drawn into the unit and result in optimum combustion. when the unit is cool enough will try the dollar test too.
as you can see from the above pix this morning after about 15 hrs of continuous burn the glass is most sooted up with a small ashy center pattern like a u. heat production low and combustion low temp as well.
hey ohio:
sounds like you're working yourself to the bone. as to the thickness of gasket material, I'd suggest definitely running a nice bead of silicon sealer to attach it. that way its flexible enough to make up for irregularities and still create a snug fit.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I will attempt to explain the difference in temperature.
> Heat exchangers transfer heat. Seems self explanitory. But heat is not measured in degrees. Temperature in degrees = amount of heat x specific heat of the substance / mass of the substance.
> So there is a small volume of very hot air moving on one side of the heat exchanger and a larger volume of air moving on the other side of the heat exchanger. Since the air on both sides has basically the same specific heat (the amount of heat needed to raise the temperature by one degree) the output temperature will be
> 
> ...



Then we add the impacts of ash in the works and remember that the air flows on both sides of that exchanger are variable and it isn't just the blower setting in some cases finally ending up with all kinds of things that contribute to readings taken on the same model of stove not being always close.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> dear ohio
> it seems when my unit is running more properly I'm showing the same temps on my oven kitchen stove hanging over the louvers as you. sometimes I get it almost to 170 when the firebox is approaching 475 as measured on the left side as you do with a wood stove thermometer. the remote is set to keep the main area around 70 and it does that for what I would say is 15 hrs then with the build up of soot and inefficient burning the temps go down. the firebox running at 300 and the air at maybe 110. btw, I balance a heavy piece of metal on the door to radiate up more heat. that's the silver bar in the photo below the oven thermometer.
> where I'm at now: unit on mode 3-settings 1,6,1 ran for about 15hrs before sooty burning is slowing it down.
> View attachment 147526
> ...


If ash and soot are causing your problem, you might consider switching to softwood pellets. They burn cleaner and produce much less soot. They are not a cure for a rich burn (not enough air/oxygen) but they do keep my stove much cleaner than any hardwood I have burned.
This year I am burning LG Granules in my MVAE and I can go twice as long between cleanings. This stove isn't fussy about fuel or cleanliness so I am able to clean it once every two weeks instead of every week. After two weeks I can still see the fire clearly through the window. With hardwood it was obscured in about four days. YMMV.


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

thanks harvey for the physics lesson. so what I think I can take away from it is:
at my basically highest temp of 425ish I'm getting 150 air exit temps which is about right. ohio believes that his unit when on full has a firebox heat of 6-700 degrees which would produce hot air in the 180's which is where I would like it to b when I require it. 
the only time I remember my unit running hot in the 175 area was with another brand of pellets, that is, natures own. when I complete removing the hose from the oak and do the dollar test, I'll load a bag of it in and eval.
again, thanx to all for advice. I know its not a harman but it should work a whole lot better than this.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

Can you post a close up pic of the burnpot with all the ash on it?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2014)

Oh noes, not that.


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

slvrblkk said:


> Can you post a close up pic of the burnpot with all the ash on it?


sorry already spatula'd away into the ash pan for dumping the mostly smoldering pellets which by description were piled up to the shute. makes me think the poor combustion also is out of synch with the fuel delivery so it over time builds up a mound on the shute side and essentially suffocates itself. will post a pix tomorrow of the burn pot. just hoping that removing the sock from the end of the oak will restore enough air intake to get this girl cooking and the burn pot will b minimally filled with ash, etc.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

I want to see if air is bypassing the burnpot and escaping between the pot and the cradle. Easy to tell once the ash piles up around the pot.....should look like a "volcano" all the way around the pot with no clean edges. It should not look like the pic here, it should have ash all the way around the lip.


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

ok slvrblkk. tomorrow I'll post a pix of the burn pot.
as to today. running in mode3: 1,4,1 with blower 9and heat setting7 and remote on on off setting withh a 1 degree swing. here goes:
as to ohio burner and acammer: yes the door gasket failed the dollar test and the unit was bought 10/19/14 which is why I resisted thinking it. must have been defective from the get go( was it made on a fri?) and worsened over a month's use. thought I'd see the light by replacing it. used 5/8 gasket with silicon sealer from lowes($12). when you do ohio, you'll need a very sharp narrow chisel, a scraping razor and, if you have, a dremel with a sanding disk or wire wheel to get the old stuff off and have a clean surface. did mine and the dollar stayed snug but my fire still not hot nor bright enough and still producing soot. funny that the firebox gets to 425 in .5 hr. might reach 450 in another .5 hr but I think that's about it and if left going will only soot itself deteriorating over time.
next, as smokey advised, just removed the sock I had on the end of the oak to try to let in as much air as possible. did notice a yellowish deposit on the sock but still the unit is not running any differently. flame still looks ok in the beginning but when full gets more orangy and lazy. soot then begins to form 1st at the hinge side top left and then seems to work its way around the bottom and then completes a circuitous route encircling edges, closing up towards the center.
later on tonight, a diff pellet will take over, natures own, which ran much hotter than green supreme does.interested to c if something in my setup changes. I will not break down the combustion fan which is a good bet as of now but I don't have a gasket for it and won't chance doing without it. if the co. were more responsive I might but not the way they are.
will c if the other pellet makes a change and eval then
again thanx to this community and their insights and input. without your efforts, I would have given up a long time ago.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2014)

Well if your burn problems are what slvrblkk is looking for signs of, all of the good air in the world ain't (sorry Muriel may you rest in peace) going to help with the pile up, which also needs to be eliminated to allow the good air to actually get into the act.

But that is his story to tell. 

But while you are waiting ask yourself why is that sock getting yellow?


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

hey smokey
just thinking.... new door gasket.... removed sock over oak.....  cleaned out vent pipe...still have a lazy burn and smoke exiting the flue on roof... what's left but the combustion fan. is it slow? is that what you're pointing to? its the only thing I've not really addressed. if it runs free and full  should pull air in and out at the right pace I'm assume. the flame should be optimal and no yellowing of the sock on the oak. if its sluggish due to deposits it won't pull at the structured pace. is that what you want to tell me?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> hey smokey
> just thinking.... new door gasket.... removed sock over oak.....  cleaned out vent pipe...still have a lazy burn and smoke exiting the flue on roof... what's left but the combustion fan. is it slow? is that what you're pointing to? its the only thing I've not really addressed. if it runs free and full  should pull air in and out at the right pace I'm assume. the flame should be optimal and no yellowing of the sock on the oak. if its sluggish due to deposits it won't pull at the structured pace. is that what you want to tell me?



I'll let slvrblkk tell the story, but he has somewhat given it away in his last post, you should be able to connect the dots.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

If you've been running your stove all day you should already be able to tell if you have air bypassing the burnpot. You SHOULD have ash buildup all the way around the burnpot without any areas missing ash.

Another thing to check...I know the stove is new BUT......make sure that you can visibly see a gasket between the burnpot cradle and the back wall if the stove AND make sure that the mount bolts are tight. 

If these check out ok we'll move to the combustion blower.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2014)

You'd be surprised about what's left even after slvrblkk takes a good look at that photo you are going to take for him, there are more things to look at and to clean.

The exhaust blower is one of them but more on the cleaning side because of ash than being slow.  Speaking of which do you have some spare gaskets around as you might need a few over the course of a burn season.

ETA:  He who is being discussed has shown up

ETA: I'm out of here for now got other stuff to do.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

Oh yeah, mental note.......must check ashpan seating and gasket too.....


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that.  I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore. 
beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
> maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
> maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
> so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that.  I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore.
> beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.





smelm0 said:


> you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
> maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
> maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
> so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that.  I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore.
> beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.





smelm0 said:


> you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
> maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
> maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
> so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that.  I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore.
> beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.





slvrblkk said:


> Oh yeah, mental note.......must check ashpan seating and gasket too.....


dear slvrblkk
ash pan tight


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> dear slvrblkk
> ash pan tight



It might be tight but it doesn't mean air isn't being sucked in somewhere...just throwing that out there. As the stove is running you can "sort of " test it by opening the ash pan and see what the flame does. It should go very lazy when you open the ash pan and very active when it's closed back up.


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

slvrblkk said:


> It might be tight but it doesn't mean air isn't being sucked in somewhere...just throwing that out there. As the stove is running you can "sort of " test it by opening the ash pan and see what the flame does. It should go very lazy when you open the ash pan and very active when it's closed back up.


450 on the firebox. totally sooted up on the glass. don't feel like cleaning it up now as I'm tired but if I open the door, the flame becomes a hell of lot lazy and then perks up when closed.
on my end, still thinking sooty combustion fan. not sure where you or smokey are?


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

here the beast b. found a little energy and opened the ash pan a bit and the flame degraded some till I closed it shut. this is the kind of flame I'm experiencing and am not sure what or where but at 425 I think we should b doing a hell of lot better and cleaner. the combustion fan, which I've not cleaned is the last leg, has not been cleaned. I assume that it exhausts and pulls new air into the burn chamber. seems to a knucklehead like me the heart and soul of this dynamic. I'll await your feedback.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

That glass gasket is very unusual. Is that the way the stove came? Where did you get the stove from?


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

slvrblkk said:


> That glass gasket is very unusual. Is that the way the stove came? Where did you get the stove from?


back when I thought the glass might have been leaking so I used some fiberglass to rim it from the outside to c if that helped.
	

		
			
		

		
	



not 100% about the glass gasket but after a time I don't think its the issue. here's what the flame looks like after 6 hrs of burn. notice the build up of unburned pellets feed side. over time this condition will worsen and more pellets will accumulate creating a sort of pyramid upward to the feed. then it will overfill the area and begin the process of suffocation. 
the is the extent of my issue and the stoves poor performance.
hope you can help


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> back when I thought the glass might have been leaking so I used some fiberglass to rim it from the outside to c if that helped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


do you think its the glass gasket at fault?


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

Glass gasket? doubt it but it's always a possibility. 

Double check gasket between gradle and back wall.

Burnpot, from what can be seen looks ok. When you can and stove isn't running, see if that pot "teeters" a lot in the cradle y pushing on the corners of the burnpot.

If you completely take the OAK of the back of the stove, does anything improve?  Check the OAK tube going into the stove to make sure nothing got jammed or shoved into it.

Just throwing some stuff out there.


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

ok . stove from depot.
will check tomorrow to c if the burn pot teeters in the cradle or not. can prob clean with dremel if there are deposits on its underside preventing good seating. will also detach the oak and c what that results . think that's about all you want to know. just been thinking on my own that the combustion fan seems to b the heart and soul of this operation and keeping it fully cleaned and at the right speed where it pushes out the vent gases and pulls in fresh air might just b the entire enchilada. what are your thoughts on this dynamic? just want you to remember that renewing a door gasket and opening the oak without a mesh hasn't achieved anything in the way of flame performance. I know you and I are still thinking leak somewhere which is degrading the burn.


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## smelm0 (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> ok . stove from depot.
> will check tomorrow to c if the burn pot teeters in the cradle or not. can prob clean with dremel if there are deposits on its underside preventing good seating. will also detach the oak and c what that results . think that's about all you want to know. just been thinking on my own that the combustion fan seems to b the heart and soul of this operation and keeping it fully cleaned and at the right speed where it pushes out the vent gases and pulls in fresh air might just b the entire enchilada. what are your thoughts on this dynamic? just want you to remember that renewing a door gasket and opening the oak without a mesh hasn't achieved anything in the way of flame performance. I know you and I are still thinking leak somewhere which is degrading the burn.


just quickly removed the oak and nada. I guess its the pulling which is not there?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> ok . stove from depot.
> will check tomorrow to c if the burn pot teeters in the cradle or not. can prob clean with dremel if there are deposits on its underside preventing good seating. will also detach the oak and c what that results . think that's about all you want to know. just been thinking on my own that the combustion fan seems to b the heart and soul of this operation and keeping it fully cleaned and at the right speed where it pushes out the vent gases and pulls in fresh air might just b the entire enchilada. what are your thoughts on this dynamic? just want you to remember that renewing a door gasket and opening the oak without a mesh hasn't achieved anything in the way of flame performance. I know you and I are still thinking leak somewhere which is degrading the burn.




I don't want to step on other folks toes who are trying to help.

So I try to let them tell their story.

slvrblkk has been here longer than I have and is actually burning a product from the same company as yours.  I've only seen that stove in a big box.

That having been said there are very few differences between how all of these devices work.  They are basicly two intertwined air pumps.  Both of which function best clean.

The combustion air path is critical for producing heat and it fouls its air-paths.

The stove needs a good supply of oxygen rich air to enter the intake and to make it to the burn pot, then through the pellet pile in the burn pot and continue on through the heat exchanger to the combustion blower where it gets pushed out the vent since the combustion blower can only pump so much air at each setting you can not afford to have air enter the stove.other than that that goes through the burn pile.  The only exception is that that goes thorough any air wash system as that is taken into account in the burn program.

That is why gaskets, and any bypasses are critical, along with not making it difficult for the combustion blower to send the oxygen deprived air out of the system.

You shouldn't need a Dremel.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 14, 2014)

If you are going to pull the blower, you will need a new gasket. It is very hard to remove the gasket without destroying that gasket.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 14, 2014)

slvrblkk said:


> If you are going to pull the blower, you will need a new gasket. It is very hard to remove the gasket without destroying that gasket.


Even if that stove is only a month old?

And thank you for suggesting removing the 2" OAK vent at the back of the stove. If this thing is breathing thru a 22' straw, that should be among the first items to be scratched off the problem list. Looks like it's not an issue though.

I don't like the 7' horizontal 3" pipe leading into the fire place flue. No doubt it connects to the 3" flex liner for its 15' vertical thru a cleanout T (another resistance element). That's a long way for the combustion fan to have to push. The relatively cool pellet exhaust never seems to develop the draft of a good hot wood stove, so I think smelm0 got some bad advice about the 3" liner. Might be better off to relocate the stove seven feet to the right and skip the horizontal pipe (as seen in first photo) altogether.

The problem (no disagreement by anybody) is to many pellets in the burn pot vs too little air flow thru the burning pellet pile in the pot. Whether you've got air leaks allowing for air flow around the burn pot, or blocked flow in the exhaust path, or a weak/clogged combustion fan, I'd definitely start looking for a vacuum type leaf blower and take a trip up the roof to meet mr chimney top. Time for the hammer.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2014)

That vent setup falls into the



SmokeyTheBear said:


> along with not making it difficult for the combustion blower to send the oxygen deprived air out of the system.



category.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 15, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> *Even if that stove is only a month old?*
> 
> And thank you for suggesting removing the 2" OAK vent at the back of the stove. If this thing is breathing thru a 22' straw, that should be among the first items to be scratched off the problem list. Looks like it's not an issue though.
> 
> ...



He can try it but those fiberglass gaskets Englander uses and not forgiving at all.  He should have one one hand so he doesn't get "left out in the cold" so-to-speak.  I make my own out of a lytherm type material which I typically reuse multiple times.

I missed the 7' of horizontal...I was taking it as 7' of pipe (vertical) in the chimney until it met the flex liner....but I guess that wouldn't make sense because then how the hell would you get at it in the chimney.  I just went through all the posts again and now saw the vent setup in the one pic.....I didn't see the pipe earlier I "assumed" the vent went into the stone behind the stove.  Although it does have what looks to be about 20 degrees of rise, that right there is _probably_ what is choking the stove out with 3" vent.


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

slvrblkk said:


> He can try it but those fiberglass gaskets Englander uses and not forgiving at all.  He should have one one hand so he doesn't get "left out in the cold" so-to-speak.  I make my own out of a lytherm type material which I typically reuse multiple times.
> 
> I missed the 7' of horizontal...I was taking it as 7' of pipe (vertical) in the chimney until it met the flex liner....but I guess that wouldn't make sense because then how the hell would you get at it in the chimney.  I just went through all the posts again and now saw the vent setup in the one pic.....I didn't see the pipe earlier I "assumed" the vent went into the stone behind the stove.  Although it does have what looks to be about 20 degrees of rise, that right there is _probably_ what is choking the stove out with 3" vent.






dear slvrblkk and others
here is this mornings pix. I shut the unit down about 1.5 hrs ago8:30 and its now about 10:30) as it was suffocating itself out any way. as you requested the pellets basically mound up around the burn pot, volcano style, all the way up and even inside the feed shute. now they are still smoldering and creating noxious soot. the door and interior firebox amply reflect same.
as to the vent setup, the mfr the one time we talked thought it wasn't an issue. my complaint at the time was low btu's and because I routed my 3" vent into a 5" liner, the tech thought with a 3" one I'd wick heat off the firebox more slowly. hence, more btus. after I installed 3" all the way to the top of the chimney....same difference.
last night used a diff pellet which previously had burned hotter than green supreme. same diff again.
reading thru your latest comments and here's what I plan for today:
will not attempt a combustion fan removal without gasket. will clean out the firebox, door, ash pan. will open clean out of vent tee in rear and will brush and vac clean. did this yesterday but only takes another few. will remove the vent from the back of the combustion and tape on my shop vac hose. open the front of the unit and let her suck away for 5-10 minutes and then reassemble and keep my tootsies crossed.
will let you all know the outcome


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## slvrblkk (Dec 15, 2014)

Yeah....the volcano is supposed to be ash and not partially burnt pellets. That is a serious air flow issue. You can double check the combustion fan but the underlying problem is more than likely that vent setup. It's asking a lot out of that fan to pull the air in and to push it out of the stove with that setup. Hopefully Mike from ESW sees this thread and will chime in.


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

slvrblkk said:


> Yeah....the volcano is supposed to be ash and not partially burnt pellets. That is a serious air flow issue. You can double check the combustion fan but the underlying problem is more than likely that vent setup. It's asking a lot out of that fan to pull the air in and to push it out of the stove with that setup. Hopefully Mike from ESW sees this thread and will chime in.


hi slvrblkk and others
as I'm typing I have my shop vac sucking as best it can at the exit of the combustion fan. its 3.5 hp with a new filter so its pulling pretty well. I do see some creosote/sticky, hard and tar like in there to an extent. not sure even with a pick ax, I'd b able to clean it perfectly but giving it a shot. might need a total replacement to really have an effect. I'll leave it running for 15 minutes and then close everything up and expect to c at least a wee bit improvement. as you suggest, maybe the vent could b shortened and inclined further by moving the unit closer to the fireplace opening but I was trying to get the unit as close to the middle alley of my ranch house as possible. no one ever suggested that I'd have an issue with exhaust length. see many installs are totally horizontal but much less than approximately 22' of pipe. mfr even thought when we once spoke that I might b experiencing too much draft as in the exhaust exiting too quickly since I had a 5" flue liner at the time...
if I don't see a major improvement today, have decided to return it before my refund window expires as I'm leaving for fla on 1/1. can pick up the pellet stove fissue in late march. after having a good ol' time with this product, I'm doubtful I'm up for a second go round. will consider other brands...
btw, the burn pot sits very nicely in the cradle. just wanted u to know that I've followed all your suggestions. as to moving the unit closer to the masonry, I'd have to make some furniture changes because of incendiary issues and don't think I'm up to it as of yet. 
yes, it would b nice to have a responsive mfr but absent that I'm very pleased and thankful that I've found you guys and this forum.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2014)

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/e3/e33d2e85-03b6-40ef-adb1-cbe6b1e64e87.pdf  page 9 your vent is too long for 3" venting.

You can clean that stove's combustion passages till the cows come home the stove is only going to foul its passages up and pile up the pellets.

Until you correct the venting you are going to have nothing but trouble.

I didn't even look to see if there was a horizontal run limit but I suspect there is and general vent installation instructions do not recommend more than a 15 evl for 3"  You appear to have at least 14.5 not counting your elbows and such which could add 10 more giving likely an evl of 22.5 to 24.5.   The combustion blower will not be able to handle that on most pellet burning stoves, no where near enough power to push the exhaust out of the system.


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

well it would have been awfully nice if the folks at esw had mentioned something to me when we once chatted by phone about venting limits over a month ago. if as steve and smokey indicate an overly long vent setup is the culprit, what venting setup do you suggest. think I could connect directly to my ss single wall flex pipe for a more vertical 15' run, though the pipe is uninsulated. also since its an old fireplace insert, they'll always b a wiggle in there till it enters the straight section of 12" chimney. prob 12' of that.
after shop vac clean out. the unit got to over 415 at the firebox in .5 hr. the flame is looking more yellow and strong. after an hr at 425 and no soot yet on the glass but as one pix shows, I still have a bit of smoke exiting the flue though less than before. I know it won't last for long the cleaner burning will degrade. just when is the question now. wonder like ohio burner, how long the deeper cleaning option has to b put in effect in order to keep the unit behaving.


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> well it would have been awfully nice if the folks at esw had mentioned something to me when we once chatted by phone about venting limits over a month ago. if as steve and smokey indicate an overly long vent setup is the culprit, what venting setup do you suggest. think I could connect directly to my ss single wall flex pipe for a more vertical 15' run, though the pipe is uninsulated. also since its an old fireplace insert, they'll always b a wiggle in there till it enters the straight section of 12" chimney. prob 12' of that.
> after shop vac clean out. the unit got to over 415 at the firebox in .5 hr. the flame is looking more yellow and strong. after an hr at 425 and no soot yet on the glass but as one pix shows, I still have a bit of smoke exiting the flue though less than before. I know it won't last for long the cleaner burning will degrade. just when is the question now. wonder like ohio burner, how long the deeper cleaning option has to b put in effect in order to keep the unit behaving.








just checked the exit and after an hr and a half and its burning as it should nice and clean. maybe the last of the guck has burned off. hope so. now still have to c how long the clean burn will last....


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## slvrblkk (Dec 15, 2014)

Whoh....is the SS liner bent to a 90 degree out of the cap of the chimney?


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 15, 2014)

slvrblkk said:


> Whoh....is the SS liner bent to a 90 degree out of the cap of the chimney?


I was wondering if anybody else noticed that. OMG! The stove never had a chance.


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I was wondering if anybody else noticed that. OMG! The stove never had a chance.


yes harvey and steve, I bent it a bit(about a 45 or more. looks more from below) to keep rain, etc out. can straighten if you prefer but after 2.5 hrs. unit running nice and clean and bright. just wondering when and if the shoe will fall. you gotta believe...


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## slvrblkk (Dec 15, 2014)

That SS flex should just go straight up the chimney and terminate at the top with a vent cap. Something like this or similar:


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

ok steve will look for a cap which at 3" was not easily found locally. will order online and then straighten out what I have. no problemo. just pissed that the door gasket it seems was defective from the get go and created a declining flame over a very short time. wonder if I can get esw to send me out a new combustion fan but I suspect I can even keep the one I have if I manage a new gasket. just wonder how long I have before self pollution takes over. my stove is cooking. mode 3: 1,4,1 settings remote on on off mode.heat is at 7 and blower 9. just wonder when it will go south again and need remediation. think I should gin up a general how to for this particular unit to help others hurdle stuff along the way. 
still would like to know your thoughts about an ideal setup in my case. do you think I can just connect to ss flex pipe? should I shorten the dbl wall 3" pipe. you should know now that the 3" dbl wall is very hot and hot gases look for an exit upwardly if possible. might just clean things out on the way up as it does in a regular wood stove?
just getting a bit of ash film on the door glass now after at least 4 hrs. no untoward deposits  and not what I haven't faced before. still no soot and no smoke, thank goodness.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 15, 2014)

As far as I know, unless the stove is set in a fireplace or is an insert, you can't have the single wall pipe exposed by code (I'm not a code master though). I think I'm going to refer to pages 11-14 of the Englander manual for install so probably should follow.  Basically, if you can remove the entire horizontal run and get the top of the chimney SS flex terminated properly, you are definitely heading in the right direction.

http://www.heatredefined.com/assets/images/manuals/2855/25-pah.pdf


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

hear you steve. at most, I could shorten my exhaust by 4' if I left the unit where it is and pulled down the flex pipe.  so far the unit seems to b operating very aok even with a bunch of  turns  and 22' feet of exhaust. if I moved the unit closer to the fireplace setup prob still couldn't save more than 4'. still not a huge savings. 
6 hrs and creating nothing more than fly ash. so I'm not doing anything at the moment to disturb the setup. house at 73 outside 41 and remote still at 72 with a 1 degree swing in on off mode so waiting on it to start up at 71 or at least 70
think you're right about the code and single wall in an interior location a no go. still feeling like keeping the unit if the co. will advance a combustion fan after I spent on a door gasket and then we'll eval. think like acammer that this unit aint a harman but if functioning well enough is an economical alternative.


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## smelm0 (Dec 15, 2014)

englander 25 pah guidelines
yes, the co. makes a dvd and an install booklet but we, consumers, have to have better info:
my experience:
bought the unit 10/19/14 and was unhappy from the get go. thought the btu output was more like 25k and less like 45k as stated in the literature.
found the mfr costumer support very bad. emailed them to circumvent the phone and finally received a call back like at 8 in the pm and really felt sorry for the dude.
discussed my situation which at the time boiled down to too much draft as I exhausted my 3“ dbl wall vent to a single wall 5“ flue pipe inside a 12“ masonry chimney. a run of over 22‘.the co. thought I was allowing the exhaust to wick out too fast. I reduced the chimney flue to 3“ and didn’t really see any diff. ok. I started using temp gauges. my firebox was at 425 and air of the louvers at 150. was hoping all along to get the air exiting the unit at 175 plus. this I thought would keep my ranch, 2k sq ft hacienda warmish. but this never happened.
over time it became apparent through lazy orangy flames that I had a leak some where. I resisted thinking of the door gasket as my unit was but a month old but $12 for a gasket and silicon sealer) solved that issue.
I still didn’t have good combustion which in this unit is based on the play of the combustion fan. it draws fresh air and and pushes combusted air out. mine was fouled due to a defective door gasket.
so here’s where we are. shop vac’d the end of the combustion fan. if I had a gasket prob would have just disconnected and cleaned it. but even so, after 15 minutes of vac, and reassembly my unit is running aok.at mode 3, 1,4.1 and at 7 heat and 9 blower. house 72 outside 34.
what can we deduce from all this blather:
make sure all your gaskets pass the dollar bill test
keep your exhaust runs as short and free of turns as you can
the heart and soul of this unit is the combustion fan. it pulls fresh in and pushes burned air out. make sure the ins and outs are not conflicted.
the flame should always appear bunson like whether high or low.
don’t let the pellets run low as this will stop the unit. should have at least a bag in there and if not you should have the pellets centered over the augur.
this unit will hold almost 3 bags but needs daily cleaning.

have a lot of other thoughts on pellet stoves- my friend has a harman insert which burns pellets like the 4th of july. very impressive and desirable. our unit is more like boy scout hot dogs. slow and steady but not the greatest. again, at 1.5 times the cost.... what .... not even sure the harman doesn’t require on average plus trouble shooting.,
but here we be....
just want to say that home depot has been great about this stove. whatever I wanted to do, they were johnny on the spot to fulfill. that’s why I’ve muddled with it. have until l/19/14 to return it for full refund.
so far think I’m going to keep it. not struggling thru the winter in upstate ny but hunkering in fla.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 16, 2014)

The manual on page 5 says the unit produces 11k to 25k BTUs output, in what literature was or is the 45k stated?

Was it stated as an output rating, pellet stoves were usually rated like oil eater in input BTUs.

At 4 lbs on high and a average of 8600 + or - 500 BTUs per pound  you would get an input rating of 34.4 k BTUs + or - 2k BTUs. 

The marketing folks would call that 35k BTUs because they don't handle fractions or margins of error due to pellet composition well.


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## smelm0 (Dec 16, 2014)

just a final entry in the thread.
a big thanks to steve, smokey(see thumbnail which came with install manual), ohio burner, acammer, harvey and any others I might have omitted.
below is a thumbnail of what the firebox looks like after burning correctly for the last 24 hrs. just some fly ash. at mode 3: 1,4,1 settings and the remote set to 72 with a 1 degree swing. this unit produced consistent temps of 430 abouts. air exiting unit @ 160. 72 inside and 33 on the outs.
oh, what a proper fitting door gasket and a good cleaning can achieve.


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## acammer (Dec 16, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> just a final entry in the thread.
> a big thanks to steve, smokey(see thumbnail which came with install manual), ohio burner, acammer, harvey and any others I might have omitted.
> below is a thumbnail of what the firebox looks like after burning correctly for the last 24 hrs. just some fly ash. at mode 3: 1,4,1 settings and the remote set to 72 with a 1 degree swing. this unit produced consistent temps of 430 abouts. air exiting unit @ 160. 72 inside and 33 on the outs.
> oh, what a proper fitting door gasket and a good cleaning can achieve.



Glad it's producing heat and running clean at last for you.  It sounds like a lot of exhaust to push as I now understand your vent setup, but if it's working, it's working.  My PAH is running really well, staying clean, and producing pretty good heat - I'm not sure why this unit gets a bad rap but mine seems great.  There is definitely more heat to be gained by running the LBA up to 9 and then adding fuel with the LFF until you hit a rich burn.  I'm at a LFF of 5 and LBA of 9, and I see 200-210*F at the grill with a magnetic stick on stove thermometer.  While this doesn't show actual air temp as the grill is probably driving the temp up some, I know it's more heat because when I run at the stock LFF 1 LBA 4 I get ~180*F testing the temp at the same spot.  Just something to consider as it gets colder and the BTU requirements go up. 

That "Actual Output" BTU sticker is wild, I'm not sure who produces that rating but is super bogus.  The stove maxes out at around a 4lbs/hr feed rate per the manual - my experience confirms this to be accurate.  If you figure 8000BTU/lb in pellets at 78% efficiency you get 8000BTU x 4lb/hr x 78% = 24,960 BTU - exactly what the manufacturer claims in the manual.  For 45,000 BTUs out of a pellets you need a feed rate of over 7lbs/hr @ 78% efficient - you need a pretty big burnpot and a ridiculous amount of air to pull that off!  Was that rating provided by the manufacturer or the store?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 16, 2014)

You might also get a better deal with a vent system that wasn't so wild.

That is from burning at more than 4 pounds per hour and may reflect what the controller can do in the way of fuel load delivery.    

To get that much output the corresponding input would have to be almost 60k BTUs  with an exchanger efficiency of 76% or about 6.5 pounds per hour of pellets.


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## acammer (Dec 16, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> You might also get a better deal with a vent system that wasn't so wild.
> 
> That is from burning at more than 4 pounds per hour and may reflect what the controller can do in the way of fuel load delivery.
> 
> To get that much output the corresponding input would have to be almost 60k BTUs  with an exchanger efficiency of 76% or about 6.5 pounds per hour of pellets.



You need a heck of a lot of BTU/lb in those pellets to only feed at 6.5lbs/hr, about 9,200 BTU/lb.  If you find those pellets, let me know where I can buy a few bags!

I agree, there may be more feed available on the controller, but there is no way a PAH could feed enough air to burn 7+lbs/hr.  I'm running LFF 5 LBA 9 on my PAH(max heat output settings) and I'm nowhere near the BTU, or the feed rate needed to get that output, and I'm maxed out on air.  Even with the LFF trimmed up that high I still get about 10hrs on 40lbs, or 4lbs/hr.  I would think the max stated feed rate in the manual would be based on the maximum possible heat and trim settings on the controller.  Who knows where they got 45,000 BTU from, but I don't see any way the PAH will ever be throwing that kind of heat.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 16, 2014)

Yes there pellets that top out at 9200 BTU/lb, you likely are not going to find any of them local to you.   

There are even pellets that top out close to what coal would but again you aren't likely to find them local to you and those ones aren't approved for use in our stoves.


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## acammer (Dec 16, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Yes there pellets that top out at 9200 BTU/lb, you likely are not going to find any of them local to you.
> 
> There are even pellets that top out close to what coal would but again you aren't likely to find them local to you and those ones aren't approved for use in our stoves.



Wow, I honestly had no idea.  I thought good pellets topped out at around 8,500BTU/lbs.  Seems like air would still be the limiting factor - wouldn't a 9,200 BTU pellet require more air for combustion, as it's essentially more fuel?  Or is there more energy in the combustion event per same amount of input?  I admittedly don't understand the fine details on BTU release from wood fuel but my basic chemistry knowledge says that more output is going to require more input.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 16, 2014)

X2 on reconfiguring that vent setup. I would be shocked if it runs good for any extended period of time.....but who knows...


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 16, 2014)

acammer said:


> Wow, I honestly had no idea.  I thought good pellets topped out at around 8,500BTU/lbs.  Seems like air would still be the limiting factor - wouldn't a 9,200 BTU pellet require more air for combustion, as it's essentially more fuel?  Or is there more energy in the combustion event per same amount of input?  I admittedly don't understand the fine details on BTU release from wood fuel but my basic chemistry knowledge says that more output is going to require more input.



It will require a bit of good oxygen laden air.  Test results are test results and in no way reflect actual normal operation results.

Test results are like square footage ratings, 2000 square feet may able to be heated to 70  if the outside temperature is not too low or even if the outside temperature is low, it depends upon the building's envelope.

People first and foremost need to know their heat loss figure for their building and not another building, then you need to be able to be able to match that up with what the stove can produce and have enough extra capacity left over to handle off for cleaning and record low temperature situations.


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 17, 2014)

Smelm0:
It was a bit painful to read this entire thread. I got thru it thinking that:
a. you'd return the stove and I'd be able to buy it from AM/FM at 50 cents on the dollar, or
b. you'd keep the stove for this season and put it on C.L. in April because "Englander stoves suck", and then I'd be able to buy it at 25 cents on the dollar.

Either way I'd get a great little stove for pennies on the dollar. Nothing else could have gotten me to this far in the thread after noticing that long horizontal in the first picture. But since I pass Monroe every weekend on my way to the 84 I'm feeling a bit neighborly, and you really are trying and I respect that! 

Right off you were given poor telephone advice. If you have a lazy sooty flame and you are piling partially burnt pellets in the pot you are definitely NOT having an excessive draft problem. Excessive draft would result in the pellets burning too fast, faster than your stove was feeding, and you'd likely find a cold stove.

I've seen a bunch of "professional" quickie installs with a 60" long 3" flex shoved up the tile lined flue. They work well in leaky houses where there is already a normal draft of warm room air escaping up the chimney every minute of the day. It probably would work into your 6" SS liner. Maybe.

However, that long initial horizontal has got to go. It is a trap for fly-ash. Not even those vaulted $5000 Harmans could over come that. You need to place the stove directly in front of the FP opening. Then get an appliance adapter for your 3" flex (same manufacturer preferably) and jam that right into the back of the stove. Run the 3" up all the way to the chimney top inside the existing 6" SS flex, and figure out a way to support the 3" flex with a good top plate. Top that whole thing off with a Cap (again preferably from the same manufacturer).

That will give you an acceptable vent install. Then after you get the thing functioning you can fabricate a simple "damper blockoff plate" to prevent cold and odors from spilling down your flue. Extra credit if this was already done when your 6" SS liner was installed.

Now try to fire up the stove without the OAK. Or figure out a way to run a metal flex dryer vent to a window to temporarily function as an OAK. No way can you get away with a 2" OAK that's longer than 6'. You will need a 3" or bigger OAK. Do you have an old clean out trap in the existing FP? That may have a low resistance path into the basement or crawlspace, and may be a great source as an OAK. Maybe!

......Now for something completely different: about that 45K BTU/hr output heat claim   . That's just hilarious. Except if you paid money based on that little yellow tag 

My understanding is this stove was introduced to overcome the complaints of too small a hopper and lack of an ash drawer. Done. 
It never was meant to be a 60K btu mega burner, and the attached pdf from the Operators Manual (page 5) makes that clear.

I think you can get this stove working! But I'll be watching CL just in case.


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## smelm0 (Dec 17, 2014)

hear you, smokey. will address the "wild" vent setup. prob will eliminate the inclined horizontal by moving the unit more closely to the actual fireplace. there will always b some kind of wiggle going up as the flex pipe has to go up and over the flue damper area and then rearward about a  foot to the actual vertical part of the chimney. maybe 15' instead of 22' and with fewer turns, etc. maybe 2 90 els in the mix.
thanks for reminding me acammer of increasing the settings to get a hotter burn if I require it. so far so good and all seems to b right with the world. I agree with you that the 45k btu is hooey and I even told that to esw the one time we actually chatted. more like 25k like you and smokey have indicated. why so many corporations/govt lie without consequence is regrettable.
I also agree that the unit is not half bad. seems like most folks have some kind of issue(s) with whatever stove they have. this unit is pretty simple as it basically delivers pellets at a specified rate to a burn pot for proper/complete combustion, or almost complete. holds a lot too. and when its running right, prob is almost as good as anything out there, imho.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 17, 2014)

You need to understand that a stove company can only use up to a certain amount of what the stove can when pushed actually deliver, the EPA has over the years clamped down on particulate emissions and hence the verbiage about that test being different from the EPA one.

Oh I can see the evl of that vent being trimmed a lot.

You should see what happens if one dumps the exhaust into any masonry chimney of more than about 36 square inches in cross sectional area.  Draft being too much isn't the problem it is the weight of the x odd feet of cold air that the exhaust blower can't move very well.  You can pile up ash and other nasty stuff (some of it highly flammable)  all through the stove.


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## smelm0 (Dec 17, 2014)

dear captspiff
thanks for the wry and amusing critique. 
stove running very yellow to white and the firebox a steady 430 or so. some things you got wrong. my oak is 4' long 2 of those 4 are 3".
with the color and performance of the flame, I think I'm getting sufficient 02 for good combustion. almost no ash, soot, etc., maybe a palm full per bag, when unit is shut down also attests to a good burn.yes, the inclined up vent will have to b eliminated. it does at present have a convenient clean out which allows me to give a quick brush and vac. I realize fly ash will just keep accumulating there. 
guess with a shortened and straighter vent the exhaust might accelerate some, increasing the speed of air entering. might b able to get extra btu's that way without fiddling with the settings as acammer has commented. I realize that these units and pellets have limitations in output of heat. at present, I'm happy to just set it and forget it as I only have another 2 weeks here in the hudson valley.
what I think you overlooked is the door gasket issue. renewing has I think really made the difference in performance. leaking door not good.
anyway think that's about it. I doubt I'll b listing this baby on cl but I'm sure there might b others who will.
be well and warm!


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## CaptSpiff (Dec 17, 2014)

smelm0:
Thanks for reading my post for what it was. Had a big grin while writing it!

You're right about the gasket leak. The dollar bill test is your friend.

Please don't let the chimney top floppy snorkel situation continue too long. One of those loose bricks holding it may fall onto the roof, puncture the tiles, and now you've got a leak. Plus it's just bad juju.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 17, 2014)

Yeah i have no clue where the 45k btu thing came from, every bit of paperwork I can find shows 25k. In any case a better idea if comparative shopping with stoves is how many pounds per hour of pellets they can run, not what they claim for btu or house size.

Glad its working better, and perhaps the gasket made the most difference, but I think with your vent setup you will still have elevated cleaning intervals so don't celebrate to quickly!

I think Englanders are good stoves just perhaps a bit more finicky than others, and perhaps just a few minor cuts in quality here or there. Mines still heating away, but I need to get those gaskets replaced with thicker ones still.


SmokeyTheBear said:


> http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/e3/e33d2e85-03b6-40ef-adb1-cbe6b1e64e87.pdf  page 9 your vent is too long for 3" venting.



I did question the venting way back in post #5. Not sure if my venting is ideal either running through 3" to a 5.5" liner, but I'll focus on the gaskets first.



slvrblkk said:


> I want to see if air is bypassing the burnpot and escaping between the pot and the cradle. Easy to tell once the ash piles up around the pot.....should look like a "volcano" all the way around the pot with no clean edges. It should not look like the pic here, it should have ash all the way around the lip.



Hey thanks slvrblkk, I seem to have this issue. A small section right in the middle under the chute, a little over an inch wide is 'clear'. But what to do about it? There isnt much of a rock or wobble I can detect, I'll have to put it up against a straight edge I'm guessing maybe bowed up in the middle a tad.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 18, 2014)

As for that gap OhioBurner, is it the receptacle that was the cause or the burn pot.   Maybe the warranty can be used.  In the mean time maybe a thin gasket around the rim would do the trick, those burn pots are likely heavy enough to form a seal.

I sort of gave up trying to preach from the EVL holy book because most folks don't believe you and after all it has a blower to force the exhaust out the vent.

If one looks at my profile they will see I listed Pellet Stove Cleaner as my occupation and now only preach from their holy books and would you believe it, people still don't believe you.

Pretty soon I'm going to turn in my collar and just go with the flow.


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## slvrblkk (Dec 18, 2014)

OhioBurner© said:


> Yeah i have no clue where the 45k btu thing came from, every bit of paperwork I can find shows 25k. In any case a better idea if comparative shopping with stoves is how many pounds per hour of pellets they can run, not what they claim for btu or house size.
> 
> Glad its working better, and perhaps the gasket made the most difference, but I think with your vent setup you will still have elevated cleaning intervals so don't celebrate to quickly!
> 
> ...



Ohio...make sure you don't have a glob of weld or slag under the burnpot preventing it from a good seal. You definitely want to try and correct that because you have air bypassing the pot.  You can try taking the wide, flat side of a file and file that side down until you get it sealed.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 18, 2014)

I cleaned out the stove when I got home this morning. Putting the edge of the pot against a straight edge it was bowed up in the middle ever so slightly (just guessing 1/32-1/16). At the time I didn't think to check the cradle surface, I'll check next time. The same spot in the middle had the clearing of ashes. 
Back on to gaskets, since I hope to do it this weekend, can one use a bit thicker layer of silicone in the center of the door where the body of the stove is warped further away? This stove already has pretty thick gasket, and I've never had to replace on before, so any tricks to get a better seal I'm all ears. For the ash pan and hopper lid I was wondering if I could get another identical gasket and place it onto the opposite piece (like so there is a gasket both on the underside of the hopper lid and the top of the stove).


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## slvrblkk (Dec 18, 2014)

You might be able to straighten that burnpot edge in a vise with some tapping with a hammer.

I'm actually surprised that the door gasket that comes with the stove doesn't seal it but the extra silicone should work as long as you let it dry fully before closing the door.

Have you tried bending up your hopper lip slightly to get it to seal?


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 19, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> as to ohio burner and acammer: yes the door gasket failed the dollar test and the unit was bought 10/19/14 which is why I resisted thinking it. must have been defective from the get go( was it made on a fri?) and worsened over a month's use. thought I'd see the light by replacing it. used 5/8 gasket with silicon sealer from lowes($12).


Well I finally went to Lowes. They had only 1 gasket available 3/8 of some unknown length. Should have known better my lowes and hardware stores rarely carry any kind of wood / pellet stove stuff. Last time I was in a Home Depot and asked about pellets they said that Home Depot doesnt sell those. Anyhow, not a total wast of an hour driving, got to spend $70 on dinner lol.

Hope to find some other place that might have some gaskets and get it done this weekend since I roll into my 72hr 'hell week' next week at work and wont be able to mess with it.



slvrblkk said:


> You might be able to straighten that burnpot edge in a vise with some tapping with a hammer.
> 
> I'm actually surprised that the door gasket that comes with the stove doesn't seal it but the extra silicone should work as long as you let it dry fully before closing the door.
> 
> Have you tried bending up your hopper lip slightly to get it to seal?


I might try to put the pot in my vise and see if I can get it straight. The cradle was flat best I can tell. BTW the door gasket is the best out of the 3... I had to tug just a little to get the dollar bill through. Its the ash pan and hopper lid that the bill can freely slide. I don't think I can bend the hopper lid like you describe, its not just a folder over edge and I'm sure if I tried I'd end up making it all wavy.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 20, 2014)

Amazon maybe the cure for your local store issue in the future.  Up here if the big boxes don't carry it I still have some smaller places to go to for odd ball stuff.  I also use Amazon for things I can't dredge up locally.

If the locals can't provide it, there is always the rest of the world.


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## smelm0 (Dec 22, 2014)

ohio burne
as smokey suggests, you might save yourself dinner and time, etc by ordering from amazon. you can as well avail yourself of online lowes and hd where many more products are listed than usually found in the actual store where shelf space is determined by sales factors. how many folks are looking for pellet door gasket versus xmas decorations?
be that as it may, I used 5/8" gasket and hi temp silicon sealer from lowes for about $14 in all. made a world of diff. and let the silicon set if possible which takes about 24 hrs. 
a seated burn pot is another important issue and as slvrbkk has posted, filing or vising might restore it if the cradle is in effect true. just thinking that a small wad of fiberglass shoved in there might show if air is passing the burn pot or not. its a simple procedure.
smokey: pardon my denseness but what is evl? assume its exhaust vent something or other. can you clarigy please.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 22, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> ohio burne
> as smokey suggests, you might save yourself dinner and time, etc by ordering from amazon. you can as well avail yourself of online lowes and hd where many more products are listed than usually found in the actual store where shelf space is determined by sales factors. how many folks are looking for pellet door gasket versus xmas decorations?
> be that as it may, I used 5/8" gasket and hi temp silicon sealer from lowes for about $14 in all. made a world of diff. and let the silicon set if possible which takes about 24 hrs.
> a seated burn pot is another important issue and as slvrbkk has posted, filing or vising might restore it if the cradle is in effect true. just thinking that a small wad of fiberglass shoved in there might show if air is passing the burn pot or not. its a simple procedure.
> smokey: pardon my denseness but what is evl? assume its exhaust vent something or other. can you clarigy please.




EVL is equivalent vent length, there is a table and frequently that table is also in the installation manuals.   It is a simple means of determining the air flow resistance of a vent system that the exhaust blower must overcome for the stove to burn correctly.

90 degree elbows have an EVL of 5, 45 degree elbows 2.5 or 3 depending upon vent maker, one foot of horizontal run has an EVL of 1, one foot of vertical run has an EVL of 0.5  you sum up the EVLs of everything that is going to be in the vent run,  if you do not have to compensate for altitude then 3" venting is fine up until you reach an EVL of 15, above an EVL of 15 you really need 4" venting.  You should not exceed an EVL of 30 in most pellet stove systems.

I will also speak to the burn pot seating situation as I think that the warranty if in force covers a replacement, you just have to determine what part has the deformity.   And while I'm mentioning deformities in connection with burn pots, sustained burning with build ups in the burn pot can cause it to deform over time.  Nothing like a forge in the pellet roaster.


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## acammer (Dec 22, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> EVL is equivalent vent length, there is a table and frequently that table is also in the installation manuals.   It is a simple means of determining the air flow resistance of a vent system that the exhaust blower must overcome for the stove to burn correctly.
> 
> 90 degree elbows have an EVL of 5, 45 degree elbows 2.5 or 3 depending upon vent maker, one foot of horizontal run has an EVL of 1, one foot of vertical run has an EVL of 0.5  you sum up the EVLs of everything that is going to be in the vent run,  if you do not have to compensate for altitude then 3" venting is fine up until you reach an EVL of 15, above an EVL of 15 you really need 4" venting.  You should not exceed an EVL of 30 in most pellet stove systems.
> 
> I will also speak to the burn pot seating situation as I think that the warranty if in force covers a replacement, you just have to determine what part has the deformity.   And while I'm mentioning deformities in connection with burn pots, sustained burning with build ups in the burn pot can cause it to deform over time.  Nothing like a forge in the pellet roaster.



Good explanation on EVL Smokey.  I just did the math on my setup and am surprised to learn that I'm at/over the EVL limit for 3" vent. I have (2) 90* Elbows for 10' EVL, (1) 45* Elbow for 3' EVL, 36" vertical rise for 1.5' EVL, and 24" horizontal run for 2' EVL for a total of ~16.5' of EVL.  Those bends really eat up the flow in a hurry.  I'm going to give a little thought to seeing if I can change my setup (corner install - 45 off the stove into a 90 up,  then 90 to horizontal and out.) to be just a 90 up and then another 90 out.  It might not look as pretty,  but 3' of EVL has got to be worth some performance.

While we're talking about burn pots, I was browsing Englanders Website today and I see they have two different burn pots for the PAH, the PAH-BP and the PAH-BPS.  The BPS is what i have in mine, it appears to have a 1.25" vertical shroud on the front of the burn pot.  You can't see inside them from the pictures so I'm not sure if there are any other differences.  Any idea what the reason is for the difference, and what application you might use one or the other for?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 22, 2014)

acammer said:


> Good explanation on EVL Smokey.  I just did the math on my setup and am surprised to learn that I'm at/over the EVL limit for 3" vent. I have (2) 90* Elbows for 10' EVL, (1) 45* Elbow for 3' EVL, 36" vertical rise for 1.5' EVL, and 24" horizontal run for 2' EVL for a total of ~16.5' of EVL.  Those bends really eat up the flow in a hurry.  I'm going to give a little thought to seeing if I can change my setup (corner install - 45 off the stove into a 90 up,  then 90 to horizontal and out.) to be just a 90 up and then another 90 out.  It might not look as pretty,  but 3' of EVL has got to be worth some performance.
> 
> While we're talking about burn pots, I was browsing Englanders Website today and I see they have two different burn pots for the PAH, the PAH-BP and the PAH-BPS.  The BPS is what i have in mine, it appears to have a 1.25" vertical shroud on the front of the burn pot.  You can't see inside them from the pictures so I'm not sure if there are any other differences.  Any idea what the reason is for the difference, and what application you might use one or the other for?



I have no idea as to what the differences are,  you could ask ESW.  

I also have a corner install but have no 45 degree piece of vent involved at all, the tee handles the turn to the side as well as going up.  I also am not locked into any positioning limits that might be imposed by the venting locking system.

I just fall under the generic 15 EVL for 3" vent.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 22, 2014)

smelm0 said:


> ohio burne
> as smokey suggests, you might save yourself dinner and time, etc by ordering from amazon. you can as well avail yourself of online lowes and hd where many more products are listed than usually found in the actual store where shelf space is determined by sales factors. how many folks are looking for pellet door gasket versus xmas decorations?
> be that as it may, I used 5/8" gasket and hi temp silicon sealer from lowes for about $14 in all. made a world of diff. and let the silicon set if possible which takes about 24 hrs.
> a seated burn pot is another important issue and as slvrbkk has posted, filing or vising might restore it if the cradle is in effect true. just thinking that a small wad of fiberglass shoved in there might show if air is passing the burn pot or not. its a simple procedure.
> smokey: pardon my denseness but what is evl? assume its exhaust vent something or other. can you clarigy please.



Yeah the big stores like Lowes are more interested in what makes them the most money it seems, not keeping a full supply of little odds and ends that very few people need. Its practically a department store now. I almost always order online, heck I bought both my pellet stove and 20' chimney liner online and shipped to my door. But this gasket issue had been dragging on and I wanted to get it done then. There happened to be a small county stove shop actually about the same distance (~30 minutes one way) from me, though in the opposite direction of everything else. But was worth the trip they had every size of gasket available as they are full service stove shop. However I was just guessing on the thicknesses. The 5/8" seemed to compress less than 1/2", which didn't seem to be any thicker than what I had from memory, so I went with some really thick stuff. Think it was 7/8 or maybe 1". For the ash pan I decided to try rope gasket instead of the flat stuff that doesn't seem to be very compressible. Went with the smallest they had, think it was 1/4". I didn't get anything for the hopper, will have to do that one later. All their gaskets where white, so it doesn't look as nice with a bunch of white along the edge of the black door. 

Burn pot... I did try to put it in vise and it helped a little but this is pretty thick steel that's welded to the vertical side and not very wide so its not like there is going to be much give. I could try placing some of the flat gasket from the ash pan under it, maybe I'll try that next cleaning. I don't think filing is going to do anything since its warped up in the middle, not down. Maybe if I filled in the bow with weld, and ground that flat, but that would take forever and I could probably never get it perfect anyhow.

EVL - hey Smokey, or anyone, what is the factor for 5.5" vertical liner? Just my 3 90º bends put me at 15'. I know with the wood stove the taller you go vertical the more draft you get, not less, but I'm not sure if this is true for pellets (cooler exhaust temp?). Not sure if it means much but on a low heat setting 1 or 2 even the factory LBA setting of 4 seems to too much air as the pot will burn down to nothing sometimes. I actually turned the LBA to 3 after my thorough cleaning and gasket job. I'd turn the feed rate up instead, but I don't need more heat at the moment and this thing is already burning more than its rated to.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 22, 2014)

OhioBurner© said:


> Yeah the big stores like Lowes are more interested in what makes them the most money it seems, not keeping a full supply of little odds and ends that very few people need. Its practically a department store now. I almost always order online, heck I bought both my pellet stove and 20' chimney liner online and shipped to my door. But this gasket issue had been dragging on and I wanted to get it done then. There happened to be a small county stove shop actually about the same distance (~30 minutes one way) from me, though in the opposite direction of everything else. But was worth the trip they had every size of gasket available as they are full service stove shop. However I was just guessing on the thicknesses. The 5/8" seemed to compress less than 1/2", which didn't seem to be any thicker than what I had from memory, so I went with some really thick stuff. Think it was 7/8 or maybe 1". For the ash pan I decided to try rope gasket instead of the flat stuff that doesn't seem to be very compressible. Went with the smallest they had, think it was 1/4". I didn't get anything for the hopper, will have to do that one later. All their gaskets where white, so it doesn't look as nice with a bunch of white along the edge of the black door.
> 
> Burn pot... I did try to put it in vise and it helped a little but this is pretty thick steel that's welded to the vertical side and not very wide so its not like there is going to be much give. I could try placing some of the flat gasket from the ash pan under it, maybe I'll try that next cleaning. I don't think filing is going to do anything since its warped up in the middle, not down. Maybe if I filled in the bow with weld, and ground that flat, but that would take forever and I could probably never get it perfect anyhow.
> 
> EVL - hey Smokey, or anyone, what is the factor for 5.5" vertical liner? Just my 3 90º bends put me at 15'. I know with the wood stove the taller you go vertical the more draft you get, not less, but I'm not sure if this is true for pellets (cooler exhaust temp?). Not sure if it means much but on a low heat setting 1 or 2 even the factory LBA setting of 4 seems to too much air as the pot will burn down to nothing sometimes. I actually turned the LBA to 3 after my thorough cleaning and gasket job. I'd turn the feed rate up instead, but I don't need more heat at the moment and this thing is already burning more than its rated to.




Chimneys of that dimension are very iffy because your combustion blower really can't push that much air out reliably and when cold the stove will also have issues getting enough air past the igniter to light reliably.  Pellet venting and liners generally max out at 4" with an EVL of 30.  But you need to understand that many factors enter into a flue working.

For example Harman has a double paddle impeller that can really move a lot of air, there are some combustion blowers that can move a lot of air, your elevation can have a large impact.  It isn't as simple as the easy to add up and compare to a table seems to make it.

Back to back exhaust direction changes can get into the way as can not making certain that the venting is always going upward.

EVL is independent of the vent size, the maximum amount of EVL a particular combustion blower can handle is vent size dependent up until the stacks air weight becomes an issue.

I do not have the tables that deal with your 5.5" to tell you how much you can get away with if any.  Normally a decrease in vent size as you get closer to the stove is a larger problem than a decrease going in the other direction due simply a lot of weight trying to get down the vent.  Vent sizes should be as uniform from beginning to end as possible.


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 22, 2014)

ESW seems to be pretty good in their manual, and followed this one for my setup. Unfortunately it seems to leave a lot of helpful info out though for venting install. On page 13 it describes mine very closely, venting into existing chimney. 3 90ºs in the picture (except the bottom one of mine is a regular 90 not a clean out tee), goes into the chimney a couple feet above the stove. Manual states cross section max of 6" round, mine is lined 5.5". Gives no limit or even mention of height other than minimum vertical rise on another page. Gives no mention of 3" or 4", except that the entire thing could be comprised of 3" up to 15' length run. Not sure if I'm going to keep this stove permanent or not, so might redo later, but for this year I'm hoping this setup works and my problems where the gasket or burn pot.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 22, 2014)

Note what is said in the box about following all venting system requirements.  

Venting is frequently left to the vent maker to provide guidance subject to the stove maker making it explicitly more restrictive.

All I know is what I have read and seen on here and there sure as h e double been some ding hummers posted on here.

On out of the world venting you end up having issues lighting the stove and burning it, normally it requires a lot more cleaning even if it somewhat works.   

It can also lead to issues you don't ever want to have to deal with.


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## adam6979 (Dec 23, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Amazon maybe the cure for your local store issue in the future.  Up here if the big boxes don't carry it I still have some smaller places to go to for odd ball stuff.  I also use Amazon for things I can't dredge up locally.
> 
> If the locals can't provide it, there is always the rest of the world.


I agree X2.... Amazon or Ebay can be your best tool for stuff not available locally. I tend to check there first then resort to local... yeah, yeah I know but the selection way up here in the north is terrible.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 23, 2014)

adam6979 said:


> I agree X2.... Amazon or Ebay can be your best tool for stuff not available locally. I tend to check there first then resort to local... yeah, yeah I know but the selection way up here in the north is terrible.



If a place like Caribou doesn't have what you need, you are likely burning the wrong stuff and should switch to something else .   

Perhaps potatoes .


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## Polar Bear (Dec 23, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I have no idea as to what the differences are,  you could ask ESW.
> 
> I also have a corner install but have no 45 degree piece of vent involved at all, the tee handles the turn to the side as well as going up.  I also am not locked into any positioning limits that might be imposed by the venting locking system.
> 
> I just fall under the generic 15 EVL for 3" vent.



X2


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## adam6979 (Dec 26, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> If a place like Caribou doesn't have what you need, you are likely burning the wrong stuff and should switch to something else .
> 
> Perhaps potatoes .


If we could figure out how a cheap appliance able to burn potatoes we'd be rich. $2 for 50# and there are tons just thrown away!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 27, 2014)

adam6979 said:


> If we could figure out how a cheap appliance able to burn potatoes we'd be rich. $2 for 50# and there are tons just thrown away!



Fermentation followed by a still would either give you a gasoline additive, a fuel to burn, a means of collecting income, or a Vodka Collins.  

Your choice, just don't let the revenuers catch you or go legal and get a license.


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