# Selling our home.



## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

Do to circumstances out of our control we are looking at selling our home. We have a Realtor coming to do a walk through estimate today and tell us what the value is. Any advice on how to go about the sale ? We have never sold before just bought and this is a big move for us we will lost likely be moving 30-40 miles away for a new job saving us 120 miles a day work travel. Where to start with the sale or how to deal with walk throughs anything would help. 

Thanks Guys !
Pete


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## raybonz (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Do to circumstances out of our control we are looking at selling our home. We have a Realtor coming to do a walk through estimate today and tell us what the value is. Any advice on how to go about the sale ? We have never sold before just bought and this is a big move for us we will lost likely be moving 30-40 miles away for a new job saving us 120 miles a day work travel. Where to start with the sale or how to deal with walk throughs anything would help.
> 
> Thanks Guys !
> Pete


I travel about 100 miles a day for work but like where I live. If you are moving for commuting reasons be sure you will like your new location.. Good luck Pete!

Ray


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

raybonz said:


> I travel about 100 miles a day for work but like where I live. If you are moving for commuting reasons be sure you will like your new location.. Good luck Pete!
> 
> Ray



Thanks Ray we like where we live but for a few different reasons we have decided to move. More financially than anything. The new location is nice and would be much closer to work among other things. 

Pete


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## raybonz (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Thanks Ray we like where we live but for a few different reasons we have decided to move. More financially than anything. The new location is nice and would be much closer to work among other things.
> 
> Pete


So you gonna tell us about your new job Pete?  Congrats on your new job Pete I just knew this would work out for you! 

Ray


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

raybonz said:


> So you gonna tell us about your new job Pete?  Congrats on your new job Pete I just knew this would work out for you!
> 
> Ray


 
Not yet ! It is not official so I am waiting for the word still the holidays really slow down things a lot.

Pete


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

Think about selling it by yourself if the area you're in sees a decent demand for homes.  Use trulia, Redfin, etc to find out a listing price based on comparables.  Avoid the FSBO sites...waste of time.  You can pay to get it in the MLS and Newspaper.  CList is free (and generated the most traffic for us). Find some standard agreements online or spend a few bucks on an attorney (for 800 bucks we had one handle everything from offer letter onward).  we had ours listed for two weekends (had open houses on both) and got a follow up visit the following weekend. Tough market but since we weren't paying commission we could drop the price to a point where the three others in our neighborhood couldn't compete. Only thing that sucks is having to do the open houses/showings, but its better than paying a sellers agent a nice wad of cash to basically do nothing you cant do for a fraction of the cost. If you want more traffic, offer 2% commission for buyers agents.  They'll contact you to ask but its easier on yourself to just say your terms in the listing.


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## Swedishchef (Jan 5, 2013)

I agree with jdp1152. It may be worth the try selling on your own. The reason I think this is simple: real estate agents don't do the same work they used to do. Before if you wanted to buy a house you went to their offices and they showed you catalogues of pictures of houses they were selling. They would have to contact other RAs to see what listings they had. Today with the click of a mouse or the tap of a finger you can see most of the listings. Lots of my friends sell priavately. You can buy a package of documents for a house sale (legal terms and all) for $100. ANd in Canada an RA earns anywhere between 3-5% commission which is thousands less in your pocket.

Looking forward to hearing about the new job!

Good luck and keep us posted!

Andrew


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

Is there a good site like Legal Zoom or somewhere to get all the documents prepackaged for a house sale ? I can contact a lawyer and talk to them as well ! I am gonna have to give this some consideration ! Thanks Guys

Pete


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## flyingcow (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Not yet ! It is not official so I am waiting for the word still the holidays really slow down things a lot.
> 
> Pete


 

 Can't announce the new job? Been watching the news........Your going to be named the new Secretary of State? Much better choice than John Kerry.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

flyingcow said:


> Can't announce the new job? Been watching the news........Your going to be named the new Secretary of State? Much better choice than John Kerry.


 Dont get this trashed you cow  I mean it !

Pete


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## flyingcow (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Dont get this trashed you cow  I mean it !
> 
> Pete


Good point, whoops. I won't tell anyone of your new appointment.

Back on topic. Good Luck with your move. Not an easy thing.


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Is there a good site like Legal Zoom or somewhere to get all the documents prepackaged for a house sale ? I can contact a lawyer and talk to them as well ! I am gonna have to give this some consideration ! Thanks Guys
> 
> Pete


Honestly, I would get an attorney to do that for you. One area you don't want to screw up is the contract terms. A well heeled RE attorney isn't expensive and can provide very valuable advice.


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## stee6043 (Jan 5, 2013)

I sold a home in Michigan 6 years ago "by owner". I paid $500 or so with a service that got my home listed on the MLS. I personally think this is the best way to go about the by-owner sale. It gets you exposure to realtors and they can't tell it's FSBO.  This will enable you to work with a buyers realtor and cut your comission costs in half, or less.  I negotiated 2% total before I closed. Google it and you can find several services that will get your house on the MLS for very reasonable fees.

Based on my past experience most realtors are vastly overpaid and should barely be trusted. 7% split between two people that did maybe 8 hours of work? No way. My personal experience only. Gone are the days of realtors trying to get the best price for a house. Now they seem to just go for the sale, at any price, no matter what they have to do. One other tip - you may want to consider getting an appraisal of your own if you haven't already. A buyer will have to get one no matter what, unless they are paying cash. Too many people get a bad surprise when the appraisals come along. Here in MI house values may be rebounding in some areas but I really don't think they've hit bottom yet in others.


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

Do the math.  Your realtor only has incentive to sell your home.  No incentive to get you the best price since dropping it barely costs them anything.  Assume 5% split commission.  2.5% for your realtor.  You list at 400k.  For ever 20k you drop the price, it hurts you badly.  It barely touches what they make.  Ask yourself what their incentive is to get you the best price.


Sale Price Commission
400,000   10,000
380,000   9,500
360,000   9,000


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

And for the record, I'm not opposed to using a buyers agent.  They take you around, show you homes, teach you about the area you're moving, etc. 

Sellers agents only sell you marketing crap that you can pay for yourself for a ton less.  Oh oh oh...but they use phrases like BIGGER THAN IT LOOKS!  Airy but quaint kitchen!  FEELS LIKE HOME!  Move in Ready!


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

I have bought and sold property with and without a Realtor, but there are a lot of land mines. I would not recommend it for a first time seller. A FSBO listing means you have to be available to show the property at all times, or lose potential sales. There are a lot of potential buyers who simply will not look at FSBOs, no matter what. In short, you will be limiting your potential buyer pool if you go FSBO.

Then there are legal issues. There are state and federal laws that have to be complied with, not just at closing time, but also when showing. While it may not be likely to happen, you could conceivably find yourself in hot water for saying the wrong thing to potential buyers. Anything that even implies discrimination is actionable, whether intentional or innocent. Realtors know this and are careful, but the laws apply to FSBO sellers as well. There are even individuals and groups out there who regularly test sellers and agents, hoping for a slip up that allows them to file a lawsuit.

Then there is the need to screen for professional thieves. A skillful thief can learn a lot about your property and habits with a phone call or two and a drive by.

_Can you show the property Wednesday at 11:00 am? We'll be in town then. _

_No, wife and I both work. Sorry._

You really have no way of knowing if a conversation like that is from a legitimate buyer, or just someone who wants to know when your nice house will be free of occupants. A Realtor will put a lockbox on the house and screen the calls. The buyers will not get your schedule from the Realtor. As a FSBO, you will be hard pressed not to reveal it.

Even though I have bought and sold FSBO in the past, when we sold our old home last year, we used an agent. It eliminated a lot of headaches, and we sold fast and at at a good price. I recommend you list with an agent. If you want to try FSBO, wait until you have sold at least one home through an agent.


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## vinny11950 (Jan 5, 2013)

Good luck, Pete.  Here is another idea, have you thought of keeping it and renting it out?  It's work being a landlord, but it's also a good way to have an income producing investment.

On the bright side, home prices are affordable now so it probably is a good time to buy a new home.  Zillow.com is another website with good information for comps and past sales.

Another metric I like to compare when looking at real estate is the cost of renting vs owning.  When the rent is much higher than the mortgage people start buying.

There are also cosmetic things that you could do to the house that might attract buyers.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

vinny11950 said:


> Good luck, Pete.  Here is another idea, have you thought of keeping it and renting it out?  It's work being a landlord, but it's also a good way to have an income producing investment.
> 
> On the bright side, home prices are affordable now so it probably is a good time to buy a new home.  Zillow.com is another website with good information for comps and past sales.
> 
> ...



I won't rent out because it is just not cost effective to repair damage or have to homes to maintain for us. To much hassle for me to get involved with. We will save 600 a month by moving close to our jobs. Cosmetically I have got some work left to do but not much thank goodness that is a good point too. Thanks vinny !

Pete


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> I paid $500 or so with a service that got my home listed on the MLS. I personally think this is the best way to go about the by-owner sale. It gets you exposure to realtors and they can't tell it's FSBO. This will enable you to work with a buyers realtor and cut your comission costs in half, or less. I negotiated 2% total before I closed. Google it and you can find several services that will get your house on the MLS for very reasonable fees.


 
Yes, they can tell it's a FSBO. They aren't stupid. There is enough information in the listing that the Realtors know what is going on. The last time we were looking for property, acreage with or without house, the Realtor I was working with flat refused to show properties listed in the manner you suggest, even when I asked to see a specific property. I knew they were FSBOs because I had studied the market in my area. Most potential buyers don't have a clue that they aren't getting to see MLSed FSBOs.

The sorry fact is, most Realtors hate FSBOs in all forms and will do all they can to steer buyers away from them.


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

I can understand not wanting to deal with the headache of FSBO.  I hated interacting with everyone and hearing their critiques of my home.  But I think the theft angle is a bit alarmist.  An open house with me there vs. a realtor there watching things....I'd certainly feel better about myself keeping an eye on matters.  There are free online materials about safeguarding your valuables for an open house.  If your house is going be listed and catch the eye of a crook, they'll likely case your place and be able to break in whether you list it or a realtor lists it.  All a personal preference.  We saved a 15k commission which allowed us to come off the price a bit more to make a sale work with someone pushing their limit on the buy side.  Happy to go that route and likely will do so again in the future should the need arise and time permits.


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

jdp1152 said:


> I can understand not wanting to deal with the headache of FSBO. I hated interacting with everyone and hearing their critiques of my home. But I think the theft angle is a bit alarmist. An open house with me there vs. a realtor there watching things....I'd certainly feel better about myself keeping an eye on matters. There are free online materials about safeguarding your valuables for an open house. If your house is going be listed and catch the eye of a crook, they'll likely case your place and be able to break in whether you list it or a realtor lists it. All a personal preference. We saved a 15k commission which allowed us to come off the price a bit more to make a sale work with someone pushing their limit on the buy side. Happy to go that route and likely will do so again in the future should the need arise and time permits.


 
Ask yourself this question. Would you post the hours the house will be unoccupied on the FSBO sign in your front lawn? Of course not, but you do have to provide pretty much the same information to anyone who calls.

Realtor open houses are another story. They do pose certain risks. The primary reason Realtors hold them is to get the name and phone numbers of the lookers. They aren't always held in the seller's best interest, as the Realtor is mostly interested in securing new clients. If they find a buyer for _your_ house too, that's a bonus. Sellers can always instruct their Realtor not to hold a public open house.

In some areas, Realtors have days for Realtor only open houses. Typically, they go around en mass looking at all the new listings. This is the kind of "open house" that you want your Realtor to participate in. A Realtor that won't show your house this way should be avoided.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 5, 2013)

From an appearance standpoint, street appeal is the first key. I painted my prior stucco townhome, put a new door & storm door, and made the fist thing buyers see look very nice appealing. This draws them to the home and gets them in. Also a fresh coat of white paint inside, Makes everything look clean and room look large. Less is more as far as nick nacks and stuff on shelves etc. Minimize clutter.
My realtor wanted me out of the home at showings as much as possible, and I was happy to oblige. I sunk about 6k into my home before selling and it really paid off.
It is a stressful enough time, that I did not want to do the FSBO route, I negotiated 5.5% with the realtor, he did an excellent job of presenting it online etc. And did great photos and I think even a video walkthrough. Even the wording on the listing makes a big difference. My place sold in 3 weeks, when same places on the row were for sale for 1 to 1-1/2 years or so.
Sorry to hear you are making a drastic life change, but if it is for the better in the end, congrats!
I myself, would let great competent realtor handle my sale and not regret it a second. They know their job and usually do it well, if you get a good one.
Good luck Pete!


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## heat seeker (Jan 5, 2013)

Get an independent appraisal for the value of your property. Realtors often overprice a property to get you to sign, then tell you a few weeks later you have to drop the price to get a sale. I got burned by a realtor overpricing my house, then showing houses a couple of streets away, virtually identical, with lower, more realistic prices. Of course the buyers went for the "deals" instead of mine.

If you get a professional appraisal for $X, and the house sells for less, you can probably take a tax credit for the "loss", legally.

Definitely use an attorney! Well worth the cost!

It's a stressful experience no matter what, so be prepared and maintain a sense of humor. Moving sucks, too, our last move damn near killed me with stress and bad movers.

Best of luck to you, and keep your eye on your goal to give you some focus.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

The Realtor just left and we where told that given prices of homes around us and the fact that we got slammed by the collapse our house will be valued between 40-45,000. She pushed very very hard for a short sale and I kept saying no no no.  That is almost as bad as a foreclosure and considering my policy of food, house and vehicle for work then everything else it wont happen ! I wont be using her and am thinking seriously thinking about private sale after that. Thanks again guys I appreciate all the advice please keep shooting us more ! I do understand that the value is low but then isn't the value in the buyers eye or is it a case of what the bank will loan a buyer based on property ?

Pete


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

heat seeker said:


> Get an independent appraisal for the value of your property. Realtors often overprice a property to get you to sign, then tell you a few weeks later you have to drop the price to get a sale. I got burned by a realtor overpricing my house, then showing houses a couple of streets away, virtually identical, with lower, more realistic prices. Of course the buyers went for the "deals" instead of mine.
> 
> If you get a professional appraisal for $X, and the house sells for less, you can probably take a tax credit for the "loss", legally.
> 
> ...


 
Surprisingly we are not to stressed out about the decision because we know it will lead to a better situation. Which is good me being Mr Stressy Mc Stress Pants !  I will look into an attorney thanks heat seeker !

Pete


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## heat seeker (Jan 5, 2013)

Bottom line, something is worth only what someone else will pay for it. Sale prices have dropped, true, but that also means the home you are buying will be lower priced, too.

Good for you for resisting the high pressure realtor.

When your house is on the market, your valuables should be stored elsewhere. People often pose as buyers to "case the joint", or outright steal items while the realtor is distracted (if he even cares). I'm not trying to add to your stress, but that's a fact of life today.

Case in point: My MIL (86 years old) got a high pressure call yesterday for someone to come over today to clean her chimney. She buckled and said yes. We notified the police, and they will be looking for these guys. Dirtbags are everywhere, just looking for an opportunity. 

So, all of your valuables, including prescription drugs, should be secured.


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## ScotO (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> The Realtor just left and we where told that given prices of homes around us and the fact that we got slammed by the collapse our house will be valued between 40-45,000. She pushed very very hard for a short sale and I kept saying no no no.  That is almost as bad as a foreclosure and considering my policy of food, house and vehicle for work then everything else it wont happen ! I wont be using her and am thinking seriously thinking about private sale after that. Thanks again guys I appreciate all the advice please keep shooting us more ! I do understand that the value is low but then isn't the value in the buyers eye or is it a case of what the bank will loan a buyer based on property ?
> 
> Pete


 good luck, Pete....I hope all works out for you.  Are you taking your wood hoard with you?  If not, that massive pile has GOT to be worth a few thousand on the final sale of the house!!

It just sucks that you have to sell the house after all the work (insulation, stove, etc) you've put into it in the past couple of years......


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## raybonz (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> The Realtor just left and we where told that given prices of homes around us and the fact that we got slammed by the collapse our house will be valued between 40-45,000. She pushed very very hard for a short sale and I kept saying no no no.  That is almost as bad as a foreclosure and considering my policy of food, house and vehicle for work then everything else it wont happen ! I wont be using her and am thinking seriously thinking about private sale after that. Thanks again guys I appreciate all the advice please keep shooting us more ! I do understand that the value is low but then isn't the value in the buyers eye or is it a case of what the bank will loan a buyer based on property ?
> 
> Pete


Wow it costs that much for a big shed here lol..


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## Swedishchef (Jan 5, 2013)

heat seeker said:


> Bottom line, something is worth only what someone else will pay for it


 That is totally true!!

At least the house you may buy down the road also got slammed!

Banks will sometimes require and appraisal of the house. But that all depends on how much downpayment the buyer has. The financial institution will simply want to try and cover their rear ends to make sure that should someone foreclose on a house, they can get their money back (or most of it).

Good luck Pete, you seem to have your ducks lined up!

Andrew


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## btuser (Jan 5, 2013)

I second the independent appraisal.  If there was a bidding war for property, a realtor might promise you more than the house is worth.  However, when they're is an abundance of listings the same unscrupulous behavior will flip the other way.  My own experience with realtors is less than encouraging.  We bought + sold with the same realtor 5 years ago and if i had taken her "professional opinion"  I would have lost 40k on the sale of my house and paid 35k more for the house we bought.  She was MORE THAN $75,000.00 off, and she was the best realtor I've ever hired.  Many are a lot worse. My advice to you is there is nothing (NOTHING!) he/she can do for you that you can't do for yourself in about 3-4 hours with an internet connection.  At the very least you need to know if they know what they're doing. 

Something to check out  before hiring an appraiser.

1.) Go to the town assessor and find out what the houses in your neighborhood average per square foot.  Your town knows how much your house is worth compared to your neighbors.  Then take an honest assessment of your own property.  Add/subtract accordingly.  If you know what it costs for a new deck, a pool, a bad roof, etc.  The math isn't rocket science.
2.) You can also find out recent sales in your area to give you the "going rate" for your home.  Unless you're talking acreage or waterfront, this is the #1 consideration when pricing the home.
3.)  They (assessors) look for "direct comparisons, and the house is the house.  However, someone on a dead end street or cul-de-sac has a much better location than someone on the main street.  Ask for the comps and then drive by those houses.  You'd be AMAZED sometimes what a difference that can make when the realtor is informed that the house he/she used as a comp was adjacent to the sewer plant.  

Your realtor may indeed know his/her business, and may be giving you sound advice regarding the short sale.  However, be weary of anyone promising you a deal when your house is not listed on the open market.  Friends know friends at the bank, and those friends know other people who buy houses.  Sometimes they're even married to them!  Shady business......

Good luck with the move.


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 5, 2013)

Ok...we're in NY so it will vary.  We were both realtors for a brief period, it's a NASTY business.  and hard to pay the bills with, with crappy hours to boot.

We had to take extensive training.  There are a lot of laws to comply with.  For instance, lead based paint and property condition disclosures.

We bought the cottage FSBO...well, sort of.  We wrote the owner a letter and asked if he wanted to sell and he did.  The PO actually failed to provide certain documents he legally was supposed to AND he had an attorney.  We didn't bother with it though, we knew what we were buying.  Ours didn't catch it either, lol.

FSBO can be done.  You will need to do showing when asked, and agents will try not to show them.  ALTHOUGH if you agree to pay buyers agent fees, they might be ok with it.  Sellers usually pay the commission, with FSBOs a lot of times, they won't which is why agents don't like showing them.  If you want to go that route, I would use a service with guarantees that they will provide you the correct documentation as well as support.

Agents only make money when they sell a house.  If you want to go with a agent, dump that one.  A new agent might be better in your situation, they are anxious to get a listing.  Short sales are a PITA for agents too, I'm surprised she pushed you that way.

Ask to see comps, and see if you can check on some yourself.  Check out houses in your area for sale.

As far as the house, staging is important.  Clean, neat and tidy.  Remove clutter, personal stuff.  Neutral colors.


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

heat seeker said:


> Get an independent appraisal for the value of your property. Realtors often overprice a property to get you to sign, then tell you a few weeks later you have to drop the price to get a sale. I got burned by a realtor overpricing my house, then showing houses a couple of streets away, virtually identical, with lower, more realistic prices. Of course the buyers went for the "deals" instead of mine.
> 
> If you get a professional appraisal for $X, and the house sells for less, you can probably take a tax credit for the "loss", legally.
> 
> ...


 
+1 on the appraisal.

Tax credit for the loss on your residence? No way. Nor can you deduct the loss. See IRS pub 523. Download a copy so you know the tax implications and consequences of selling and buying.

An attorney can be a never ending money sucking hole. Things to watch out for when FSBO:

Buyer insists on using a contract drawn up by his attorney. The attorney naturally slants the contract in all manner of ways in order to protect his client. You will either have to negotiate it yourself or pay your lawyer to do it for you. Figure $200 an hour or more. Your lawyer better be a real estate attorney too, or you_ will_ get screwed. Even if he is a real estate attorney, you might still get screwed.

Buyer's lawyer wants you to sign lots of disclosures that aren't required by law. Bend over first if you do.

Your lawyer has to travel to the courthouse, settlement location, or elsewhere on your behalf. That will be at his billable rate plus expenses, both ways. Get a local real estate attorney. The closer his office is to the courthouse, the better.

Buyer's lawyer (or worse, your lawyer) wants to negotiate the deal lawyer to lawyer, all at the billable rate, of course. Some lawyers bill brief phone calls at 25% of the hourly billable rate. A few calls can run up quite a bill.

Buyer's lawyer owns the title company and/or escrow/closing agency. Expect paperwork you know nothing about to be put in front of you at closing time. You will either have to walk or sign it without legal advice. If the buyer's lawyer owns the escrow agency, the buyer will effectively control the earnest money.

I have run into every one of these situations. Fortunately, I know how to read a contract and have been able to negotiate the deal without my lawyer being involved. Only when everything is negotiated and the buyer has signed do I run it by my attorney. So far, I have come out smelling like a rose, because I insisted on doing it my way. And I have walked out of a closing because they tried to pull a last minute stunt.

I suggest you interview at least two more agents. The standard recommendation is to interview three. There are more than a few bad agents out there.

Oh, lastly, as an example of a really stupid thing to do, someone I know once hired a real estate attorney who was located 90 miles away, because he was an important and powerful lawyer in the big city. The travel bills alone were staggering.


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Ask yourself this question. Would you post the hours the house will be unoccupied on the FSBO sign in your front lawn? Of course not, but you do have to provide pretty much the same information to anyone who calls.
> 
> Realtor open houses are another story. They do pose certain risks. The primary reason Realtors hold them is to get the name and phone numbers of the lookers. They aren't always held in the seller's best interest, as the Realtor is mostly interested in securing new clients. If they find a buyer for _your_ house too, that's a bonus. Sellers can always instruct their Realtor not to hold a public open house.
> 
> In some areas, Realtors have days for Realtor only open houses. Typically, they go around en mass looking at all the new listings. This is the kind of "open house" that you want your Realtor to participate in. A Realtor that won't show your house this way should be avoided.


 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  IMO, putting pictures of your home out there and opening it up to strangers is the risk, regardless of who is listing it.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

Due to the overwhelming support for an indapendant appraisal I am going to set one up for the near future before we go any farther with this. I will keep you all posted !

Thanks guys 
Pete


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## Swedishchef (Jan 5, 2013)

Good call Pete. It seems these people have sold houses on numerous occasions and have learned from it. I think their advice is great!

A


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

jdp1152 said:


> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  IMO, putting pictures of your home out there and opening it up to strangers is the risk, regardless of who is listing it.




Our intention is to put everything we don't need in storage so we don't have any issues with major theft. O ya one more selling point we have an insanely loud alarm system ! 

Pete


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

jdp1152 said:


> I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. IMO, putting pictures of your home out there and opening it up to strangers is the risk, regardless of who is listing it.


 
Not trying to beat a dead horse, but my point is the FSBO will present a risk without opening it up to strangers. The Realtor listed home does not.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Not trying to beat a dead horse, but my point is the FSBO will present a risk without opening it up to strangers. The Realtor listed home does not.



Please explain ? 

Pete


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Our intention is to put everything we don't need in storage so we don't have any issues with major theft. O ya one more selling point we have an insanely loud alarm system !
> 
> Pete


 
Will that include your furniture? Bare houses are much harder to sell than those that have furniture in them.


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## Pallet Pete (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Will that include your furniture? Bare houses are much harder to sell than those that have furniture in them.



No we will live here until it sells so the essentials will be here but not all our belongings. 

Pet


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Please explain ?
> 
> Pete


 
With a Realtor listed house, the owner's work and/or travel habits should never be discussed with a potential buyer. There is no way that the listing itself informs would be thieves that no one will be home at any given time, nor does scheduling a showing. All the buyer knows is part of the Realtors schedule, not the seller's.

However, a FSBO requires that the owner discuss the time or times that the house will be available for showing with a total stranger, since the owner must be present to show it. This will be done over the phone. The seller has no way to know if the caller is legitimate or not. Would be thieves can easily use that information to infer or outright know when the house will be vacant. It's simple deductive reasoning. Note that the would be thief accomplishes this without ever seeing the house or revealing his true identify ahead of time. 

Of course the seller could insist on face to face meeting with the buyer in neutral place (coffee shop or such) before discussing a showing, but that would put off most potential buyers.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 5, 2013)

If nothing else I would get another realtor involved to see what he/she says and gives you for a price . . . here where I live there are two real estate companies in town: one is very low-key and has prices that are realistic and properties move quickly while the other is more corporate with consistently higher price tags. Two very different companies that I have no doubt in my mind would give me two very different appraisals for the same home.


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Not trying to beat a dead horse, but my point is the FSBO will present a risk without opening it up to strangers. The Realtor listed home does not.


 
And I happen to disagree.  Easy enough to drive by your house periodically and learn your habits if someone is hell bent on breaking into your house.  In fact, it's leaving far less evidence than if they actually called you.   If you're listing in on various sites, the address is already known. 

I lived in a neighborhood where breaking into my home undetected would have been damn near impossible.  Now, I've got an alarm on my home.  If you've got some statistics to support your assertion that home sold by owners vs homes sold by realtors are more prone to burglaries, I'll concede the point.

Pick times that work for you to show the place and stick with those and don't offer anything more than that unless it's follow up visits.  You have control over the information you disseminate.


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## raybonz (Jan 5, 2013)

After reading all these posts I need Prozac! I think I am losing my mind.. I would find a reputable realtor and negotiate a percentage with them then go from there. This is way more complicated than it needs to be! Pete I am sure your home is worth more than 40K$ hell my land is worth more than this alone, MUCH more! In a lean market you have much more leverage as a consumer (seller) and it makes sense for the realtor to get as much as possible to increase their profits! Shop and ask around and you should find someone to get the job done for a reasonable price.. I think Hogz nailed it down perfectly!

Ray


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Not trying to beat a dead horse, but my point is the FSBO will present a risk without opening it up to strangers. The Realtor listed home does not.


 
I disagree.  A thief is a thief is a thief.  When it's on the market, there are pics.  It's not hard to figure out when someone isn't home.  If you're going FSBO, ask for prequal letter or proof of funds up front.  Don't get into scheduling a showing until they can provide that.  It's not just a matter of dealing with potential thieves, but lookie looes that can't afford it or just feel like looking at it with no real intention of buying.

Our lawyer gave us an upfront rate for closing.  There were no additional billable hours, etc.

If you do go FSBO, don't let the lawyers do all the negotiating.  We had an issue with the PO's and our lawyers getting into it over the septic test.  Each was trying to protect their respective client's interest, but all it ended up doing was getting us and the PO frustrated.  Luckily we were in contact with him, so we went around the lawyers and negotiated a solution we were both happy with.  He thanked us for contacting him because he was getting frustrated and thought we were behind the issue, when it was our lawyer.  He wasn't emotionally attached, but still, he didn't want to feel like he was getting screwed.  

Home buying and selling is pretty emotional.  That's the hardest part of FSBOs as a buyer.  We made an offer on a one that was really hard, because it had been hers/her husbands and he did a lot of work-before he passed away.  She was asking too much $$,  because her emotional attachment was built into the price.  That was a hard offer to make, to try to word it carefully.  It was rejected...and I think it's rented now and she never sold it.


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> An attorney can be a never ending money sucking hole.


 
Find one that charges a flat fee, ours did.  Also, in NY, you legally need one for closing.  I don't think we paid a lot more for closing on the Cottage than our Old House and we used an agent for our old house.

Also, carefully read any contract a realtor asks you to sign when listing.  Sometimes you will be locked in with them for a year, whether or not they work hard for you.


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 5, 2013)

raybonz said:


> Pete I am sure your home is worth more than 40K$ hell my land is worth more than this alone, MUCH more!


 
Location, location, location.  It might be what his area sells for.  We're on the lake and our land is assessed below $40k.  People come from NYC and Toronto to buy up property here because it's cheap compared to what they are used to.  Usually the way overpriced properties sell to out of towners because even over priced, they seem cheap, lol.  Michigan took a heavy beating when the market dropped.


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## jdp1152 (Jan 5, 2013)

raybonz said:


> After reading all these posts I need Prozac! I think I am losing my mind.. I would find a reputable realtor and negotiate a percentage with them then go from there. This is way more complicated than it needs to be! Pete I am sure your home is worth more than 40K$ hell my land is worth more than this alone, MUCH more! In a lean market you have much more leverage as a consumer (seller) and it makes sense for the realtor to get as much as possible to increase their profits! Shop and ask around and you should find someone to get the job done for a reasonable price.. I think Hogz nailed it down perfectly!
> 
> Ray


 

Maybe the CL add for free Red Maple down south Massachusetts way will calm you down.  Don't recall exactly where, just too far for me to venture to get it.


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## raybonz (Jan 5, 2013)

eclecticcottage said:


> Location, location, location. It might be what his area sells for. We're on the lake and our land is assessed below $40k. People come from NYC and Toronto to buy up property here because it's cheap compared to what they are used to. Usually the way overpriced properties sell to out of towners because even over priced, they seem cheap, lol. Michigan took a heavy beating when the market dropped.


Yes, I agree location IS everything! I'd rather have a crappy home in a good neighborhood than a great home in a bad neighborhood anyday! Timing is also very important when you buy and/or sell..

Ray


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## raybonz (Jan 5, 2013)

jdp1152 said:


> Maybe the CL add for free Red Maple down south Massachusetts way will calm you down. Don't recall exactly where, just too far for me to venture to get it.


LOL sounds good where is it located?

Ray


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## basod (Jan 5, 2013)

The above is all good advice.  The appraisal even if it costs $600 may be used for refinance purposes if you decide selling isn't in the cards. Ask your current mortgage holder who they use
An independent appraisal is going to determine ~what a bank will loan. Which is typically the deal breaker unless you have a cash buyer.

Do your own home inspection - most stuff that is already in your mind bank of to-do's put everything down on a punch list.
Have the wife's freinds or other aqaintance come and do a walkthrough tell them to be brutally honest  - as if they wanted to buy the property.  Fix things other people notice even if it's cool with you.


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

eclecticcottage said:


> I disagree. A thief is a thief is a thief. When it's on the market, there are pics. It's not hard to figure out when someone isn't home. If you're going FSBO, ask for prequal letter or proof of funds up front. Don't get into scheduling a showing until they can provide that. It's not just a matter of dealing with potential thieves, but lookie looes that can't afford it or just feel like looking at it with no real intention of buying.


 
Sorry, a thief is a thief is much too simplistic. There are sophisticated thieves and there are meth heads that couldn't formulate a plan under any circumstances. And there are plenty of them between those two extremes.



> Our lawyer gave us an upfront rate for closing. There were no additional billable hours, etc.


 
Yes, for closing. That doesn't get the lawyer's assistance in negotiating the contract.



> If you do go FSBO, don't let the lawyers do all the negotiating. We had an issue with the PO's
> and our lawyers getting into it over the septic test. Each was trying to protect their respective client's interest, but all it ended up doing was getting us and the PO frustrated. Luckily we were in contact with him, so we went around the lawyers and negotiated a solution we were both happy with. He thanked us for contacting him because he was getting frustrated and thought we were behind the issue, when it was our lawyer. He wasn't emotionally attached, but still, he didn't want to feel like he was getting screwed.


 
Thank you for making my point. You had to go around your own lawyer and deal. What if the other party insisted on using the lawyers?



> Home buying and selling is pretty emotional. That's the hardest part of FSBOs as a buyer. We made an offer on a one that was really hard, because it had been hers/her husbands and he did a lot of work-before he passed away. She was asking too much $$, because her emotional attachment was built into the price. That was a hard offer to make, to try to word it carefully. It was rejected...and I think it's rented now and she never sold it.


 
It shouldn't be, but it often is.I have purchased two homes in which the seller was emotionally invested and was asking too much money. In both cases there were Realtors on both sides of the negotiations. In both cases a Realtor had the seller in tears explaining the realities of the situation.

Sometimes it takes that.


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## stee6043 (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Yes, they can tell it's a FSBO. They aren't stupid. There is enough information in the listing that the Realtors know what is going on. The last time we were looking for property, acreage with or without house, the Realtor I was working with flat refused to show properties listed in the manner you suggest, even when I asked to see a specific property. I knew they were FSBOs because I had studied the market in my area. Most potential buyers don't have a clue that they aren't getting to see MLSed FSBOs.
> 
> The sorry fact is, most Realtors hate FSBOs in all forms and will do all they can to steer buyers away from them.


 
So which agency do you work for? I assume you're a licensed realtor. The fact that you're capitalizing "Realtor" says a lot.

I can't disagree with anything you're saying but I can share my own experiences. My first home sale was FSBO, the listing was on the MLS, I did sell through the buyers agency and it DID save me a lot of money. As soon as I had an offer on my home I began calling listing agents for homes my wife and I wanted to buy. I ultimately did the same thing on the back end, worked with one realtor, saved half the commission. The current level of real estate sales commissions are criminal, in my opinion.

I know several licensed realtors in this state and from what I can tell becoming one is exceedingly easy. In Michigan you need 40 hours of training (all of which can be had online for a small fee), take and pass one test, no experience required and receive 2 hours of "legal updates" each year. Getting a permit to install a hot tub is almost as much work.


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Sorry, a thief is a thief is much too simplistic. There are sophisticated thieves and there are meth heads that couldn't formulate a plan under any circumstances. And there are plenty of them between those two extremes.
> 
> A realtor isn't going to protect you from a sophisticated thief.  Simply having someone that can show it whenever isn't going to do anything.  All you have to do is say that you schedule showing during a certain time frame because you work from home and can't be disturbed during working hours, etc.
> 
> ...


 
You sound like you work for NAR. People buy and sell FSBO all the time, without needing a realtor.

Bottom line is, you will need to decide which you prefer. I still say that agent was a loser. Not all agents are bad, you just have to sift through them.

I also don't know if I'd bother with an independant assessment. I'd have a few agents out and get their opinion, but also ask to see the numbers they are basing it on. Have them show you the comparables.

Same for the home inspection. If you were selling a 100K house, maybe. I don't know your market well enough. If it's possible investors will be possible buyers it's going to be a waste of money. We didn't get one on the Cottage, we knew what we were getting (more or less). I'd leave it up to the buyers at you potential price point. It might be better to spend the money on fresh paint, etc-all those little unfinished details.


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## raybonz (Jan 5, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> So which agency do you work for? I assume you're a licensed realtor. The fact that you're capitalizing "Realtor" says a lot.
> 
> I can't disagree with anything you're saying but I can share my own experiences. My first home sale was FSBO, the listing was on the MLS, I did sell through the buyers agency and it DID save me a lot of money. As soon as I had an offer on my home I began calling listing agents for homes my wife and I wanted to buy. I ultimately did the same thing on the back end, worked with one realtor, saved half the commission. The current level of real estate sales commissions are criminal, in my opinion.
> 
> I know several licensed realtors in this state and from what I can tell becoming one is exceedingly easy. In Michigan you need 40 hours of training (all of which can be had online for a small fee), take and pass one test, no experience required and receive 2 hours of "legal updates" each year. Getting a permit to install a hot tub is almost as much work.


40 hrs.??? Man that is nothing! Hell my electrician's license takes over 4 years What a joke..


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## WhitePine (Jan 5, 2013)

eclecticcottage said:


> You sound like you work for NAR. People buy and sell FSBO all the time, without needing a realtor.


 
Why, because I am suggesting that someone who has never sold a house and has a horrendous commute should fully consider the benefits and pitfalls of FSBO versus using a Realtor? Who is going to show the property if the owners are never home? Can they field phone calls at work? All important considerations for a FSBO.

You also forget that I stated up front that I have both bought and sold property the FSBO route.  I am very familiar with the process.

I'll mention something else that no one seems to want to bring up. FSBO buyers know that FSBO sellers are looking to save the commission. The FSBO buyer expects a cut of that savings. FSBO sellers don't necessarily save any money. They do have a lot more headaches to deal with.


> I also don't know if I'd bother with an independant assessment. I'd have a few agents out and get their opinion, but also ask to see the numbers they are basing it on. Have them show you the comparables.


 
A FSBO seller is ahead of the game if he can advertise a fresh professional appraisal. It could be the thing to entice a potential buyer who is reluctant to consider FSBOs.


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 5, 2013)

WhitePine said:


> Why, because I am suggesting that someone who has never sold a house and has a horrendous commute should fully consider the benefits and pitfalls of FSBO versus using a Realtor?


 
No, because I was an agent and you sound like a representative of NAR...and because you know what NAR is. Oh, and because you're capitolizing "Realtor".

I've been an agent. I've bought FSBO and via MLS listing through an agent. I've looked at houses. I've seen behind the scenes in real estate. Your presentation is very one sided, towards realtors.

I'm not saying they should sell FSBO. Or with an agent. It's really a decision that's up to them. I don't like seeing someone present such a severely one sided argument with scare tactics about thieves rather than helpful points. If you're an investor, why not add pointers on helping to sell the house, rather than why he should only use a realtor.



WhitePine said:


> A FSBO seller is ahead of the game if he can advertise a fresh professional appraisal. It could be the thing to entice a potential buyer who is reluctant to consider FSBOs.


 
I agree. But at their potential price point, it might be money better spent on presentation.



Pete, have you ever watched any of the HGTV shows like buying and selling? A lot of it is superficial to the area (that one in particular, they usually go very modern), but the underlying pointers are there. If you choose to go with an agent, interview a few. Ask them to explain their pricing, show you comps, and see if they can point out things you might be able to do that wouldn't cost a lot but might get you more money. A good agent should know your area, the buyers and what they want. Right now, neutral earth tones seem big for wall colors like sagey green, grey/blue. Of course granite and stainless steel, but those are big $$. A simple fresh coat of paint and new handles/knobs in the kitchen might be as effective at your price point. I would say if possible, have the stove running with flames showing when potential buyers are coming over. This time of the year it's homey and comfortable seeming. I know it's an old trick but it seems to work, try baking an apple pie, or using scented candles, or even some spices or lemons boiling on the stove (you can probably boil them, then let them cool). Avoid eating strong smelling foods like fish, chinese food, etc. I agree with whomever suggesting having friends over to evaluate it for you. You'll want his and hers opinions. I mess around with Pinterest a lot, you can get a good idea of current trends there. I use it to help me design my cards  it's good research. I'm not saying you need to drop 10K on redecorating, but a few hundred in paint and little "touches" might net you a few extra thousand in asking price-or at least a quicker sale. I don't know how many houses that compare to yours are on the market, but it might pay to check them out and see what you can do to make yours stand out from those. Make buyers fall in love with your house, make them see their family there..baking cookies in the kitchen and putting up a tree by the stove. If people can see themselves there, they are more likely to make an offer.

Here, like this one: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/315-E-Pearl-St-Ovid-MI-48866/74688840_zpid/

It's been on the market 115 days or there abouts. Look at that kitchen. it screams DATED. Paint the cabinets and lay an inexpensive laminate floor and it's a whole new place.

A good agent can access the MLS photos of sold properties and you can see what they looked like.  They can also tell you how long they were on the market.  Look for ones that sold quickly, and see what they looked like.


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## jharkin (Jan 5, 2013)

heat seeker said:


> If you get a professional appraisal for $X, and the house sells for less, you can probably take a tax credit for the "loss", legally.


 
No you cannot. The IRS does not allow you to take any capital loss on the sale of a primary residence. More generally, as far as the IRS is concerned capital losses and gains on any asset are the difference between what you paid and sold for. Period.


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## fossil (Jan 5, 2013)

STOP!  Everyone take deep breaths for a while.  We can take this up later.


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