# Electricity Conservation and Increased Heating Costs



## jebatty (Feb 19, 2015)

Haven't exactly computed the numbers, but efforts to conserve on electricity may have resulted in about a 20% reduction in our electricity kwh, from 15,000 to 12,000 annually. Those 3000 kwh are equivalent to 10,236,000 btu's of heat not contributing to our space heating. Since July and August at best are probably the only months of the year for which we do not need any extra heat (we don't use AC), I would guess that we now have replaced those 10 million btu's with heat from wood or supplemental electric heat. Both still would be big money savers, as the wood is "free," although about another half cord to burn, and any electric heat is 1/2 the rate of general service electricity. But still, saving on one side does result in a cost on the other side.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 21, 2015)

True, but you now have more disposable income.  You get to choose what to do with your hard won earnings.


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## woodgeek (Feb 21, 2015)

Sounds right.

Some exceptions would be if you reduced dehumidifier usage....which might concentrate in July/August or if you reduced HW usage....whose BTUs largely go down the drain.


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## billjustbill (Mar 5, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> Sounds right.
> 
> Some exceptions would be if you reduced dehumidifier usage....which might concentrate in July/August or if you reduced HW usage....whose BTUs largely go down the drain.



Heating water does cost.  Back in the early 1980's I built a 40 gallon "Batch Heater" from a set of plans I found in a magazine called "New Shelter", a spinoff of Mother Earth News.  Double glazing was a new and expensive concept, so I had a single pane widow built to cover the nickel-oxide coated pressure tank that had curved reflectors inside the main insulated framework.  It worked from the Last Freeze to the First Hard Freeze, or about 8-9 months of the year.  All our deep well water comes out at 57*, so anything that would raise that before it went into the cold inlet of the hot water heater was a good thing.  It lasted about 6 years and until a big hailstorm caused the roof to be replaced.  Being built from framed treated wood, I was betting a bit worried when those July and August days' heat really heated the water and dried the wood to the point of worrisome fire possibilities....

I'm on Propane for Central Forced Air Heating and water heater.  So, I'm considering getting a 50gallon electric water heater and let this solar electric system "Pre Heat" the water before it goes into the cold side of the home's water heater.  I'm on Pier and Beam construction, so running a large 1" line from this "Pre Heating" water heater to the Home's heater is easily done.

I believe that until the power grid's get their buy-back programs leveled out, of which in Texas there are few electric companies that easily allow solar electric interconnections, solar power will remain a supplement to grid power.  Hot water heating may be the lowest cost/best return for what it does for the homeowner and the best way to get into solar power.


Today, I read about the lowering cost of solar panels and came across this concept.  No plumbing on the roof.  It uses solar PV panels of about 750 watts to go through a controller that then wires into a standard electric water heater.  One concept lets one the 220v elements remain hooked to the house wiring while the other 220v element is heated by solar electric power.



http://techluck.com/

What do you think?

Bill


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## velvetfoot (Mar 5, 2015)

jebatty said:


> 15,000 to 12,000


Does the shop add a lot?


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## jebatty (Mar 6, 2015)

The reduction was solely for our house, not the shop. Kwh savings for the shop would be almost only from lighting, as tools are on or off as needed. The shop has 11 - 32w x 4 T8 fixtures, 5 are switched on from a wall switch and provide nearly all the needed lighting, and the remaining 6 are for the back end of the shop and switched with pull chains only as needed. For the "on" shop lights, 5 x 32 x 4 = 640 watts minimum + electronic ballast usage/efficiency.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 6, 2015)

I have a sense of deja vu about this, but, alas I'm too lazy to search.   , but.....1000 kwh/month with no A/C, wood heat, a 1500 ft2 house, and an energy-conscious owner doesn't seem that great to me.  Could there be metering inaccuracies, or something like that?

Oh wait....it's the "supplemental electric heat"?  That'd do it.


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## jebatty (Mar 6, 2015)

You've got it. All electric house, except for wood stove in the living room. Supplemental electric heat to keep the lower level at about 50F during the winter is 6000 kwh. And about 1200 kwh for electric hot water heater. That leaves 4800 kwh, or 400kwh/mo for everything else, including electric cook stove, oven, clothes dryer, etc. The side-by-side fridge/freezer takes about 100 kwh/mo. Desktop computer, DSL phone service, and TV/sound system would come in next. Last, LED lighting.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 6, 2015)

You have a meter on the electric water heater and the heat?  Again, I have sense of deja vu that I've already asked you this question.


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## jebatty (Mar 7, 2015)

Thanks to the electric utility and its different rates, the hwh and heat are separately metered, on interruptible service, and billed at 1/2 the rate of general service. Deja vu is good. We have had quite consistent kwh use of both over the years.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 7, 2015)

Even without the savings (have they been interrupted much?) it's nice to be able to know what they're consuming.


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## jebatty (Mar 7, 2015)

Interruption by law is limited to not more than 400 hours/year. Actual interruption is very little, maybe an hour or two during a day, and then usually only on very cold days.


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## sloeffle (Mar 7, 2015)

jebatty said:


> Thanks to the electric utility and its different rates, the hwh and heat are separately metered, on interruptible service, and billed at 1/2 the rate of general service. Deja vu is good. We have had quite consistent kwh use of both over the years.


Why do they meter your hwh and heat at a different rate ?

If we had that here, I don't think I would run my wood burning furnace unless it was really cold.


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## jebatty (Mar 7, 2015)

Wood still is less expensive. Assume average 20,000,000 btu/cord. That's the same as 5862 kwh of electricity (3412 btu/kw). Our interruptible rate is $0.065/kwh, so the cost equivalent for wood is $381.00. Purchased 10 cord truckload of logs is about $110/cord. Our wood comes from our land, $0 cost. Now, during heat pump suitable weather and COP = 3, electric cost is down to $127/cord equivalent, and that becomes quite attractive during the shoulder seasons.



> Why do they meter your hwh and heat at a different rate ?


Because it's interruptible based on system demand.


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## TradEddie (Mar 7, 2015)

sloeffle said:


> Why do they meter your hwh and heat at a different rate ?



'cos they can turn it of in mid Summer, or anytime their instantaneous cost from the generating company is too high. I was on a plan like that, baseboard heaters and hot water heater on an off-peak meter, about a third the price of regular power. Theoretically you get occasional disconnects, not permitted on weekends, holidays or evenings. I switched my dryer to that supply too, and never once noticed an interruption. That party ended a couple of years ago, so now I pay full price for everything, but get a separate reading for the water, dryer and unused baseboards, which is very useful to measure savings. I've started to remove the baseboards as rooms get renovated, but I live in hope that cold fusion will get developed!

On the electric savings/heating lost equation, I have a powder room that has no heat source, and now has LED lights. It's cold in there this time of year! Three 60W bulbs were a good heat source.

TE


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## Where2 (Mar 7, 2015)

TradEddie said:


> I was on a plan like that, baseboard heaters and hot water heater on an off-peak meter, about a third the price of regular power... That party ended a couple of years ago, so now I pay full price for everything, but get a separate reading for the water, dryer and unused baseboards, which is very useful to measure savings.



The next question becomes: Does your utility charge you multiple "base meter fees" for having more than one meter, since all these meters are all the same billing rate now that the party is over?

Rather than a separate meter, I have a little grey box my utility installed next to my A/C compressor unit that provides 6 months of discount (up to $9 per month) in return for allowing my electric utility to potentially cut power to my A/C compressor unit. I'm not sure I've ever noticed it disconnect my A/C. All my friends I spoke to who were enrolled in the program said "the power company rarely activates it, but I'll take all the discounts I can get". With an all electric house, I agreed with their logic, and it pays April to October whether they choose to use it.


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## woodgeek (Mar 8, 2015)

Where2 said:


> Rather than a separate meter, I have a little grey box my utility installed next to my A/C compressor unit that provides 6 months of discount (up to $9 per month) in return for allowing my electric utility to potentially cut power to my A/C compressor unit. I'm not sure I've ever noticed it disconnect my A/C. All my friends I spoke to who were enrolled in the program said "the power company rarely activates it, but I'll take all the discounts I can get". With an all electric house, I agreed with their logic, and it pays April to October whether they choose to use it.



I have the same deal...they can cycle my AC down to 30 mins per hour...but my HP is sized for heating, so can cool my house running that much, even if it were 110°F outside.  So, for me it neither saves energy (over longer than 60 minute periods) nor disturbs my setpoint.  But I do take the discount.

The DOE gave hefty grants to utilities to install these systems about 5 years ago, basically paying for the hardware and the discounts for the first couple years.  Its really a research project by the DOE to collect data regarding demand shedding programs.  My discounts dropped a lot when the grants ended (other utilities dropped the program), and the utilities likely would not have initiated the program if they had had to pay for the hardware.


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## jebatty (Mar 8, 2015)

My heat interruptible meter was installed in 1990. Its controller operates a 100 (200?) amp contactor, and I easily can hear when it connects/disconnects.


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## sloeffle (Mar 8, 2015)

jebatty said:


> Our wood comes from our land, $0 cost.


Not to start an argument. But your wood has to cost you something to harvest unless you have some pretty generous friends or have a deal with a fellow wood cutter. I have a friend who sells hundreds of cord of wood a year and he says he has roughly 50$ into a cord of wood if he is getting the trees for free. I am not sure what he is paying himself per hour though.



jebatty said:


> Our interruptible rate is $0.065/kwh, so the cost equivalent for wood is $381.00.......Now, during heat pump suitable weather and COP = 3, electric cost is down to $127/cord equivalent



If my geo ( 3.5 COP ) was metered at that rate: $5.44 per million BTU

Wood burning furnace ( 76% efficient ) / 120$ per cord for hardwood: $7.18 per million BTU

Unfortunately our coop does not offer that type of service. We have a radio controlled switch on our hot water heater that the power company can cycle on and off. The coop guy told me they basically turn one leg of the 240V circuit off. We get $2 off of our electric bill per month.


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## TradEddie (Mar 8, 2015)

Where2 said:


> The next question becomes: Does your utility charge you multiple "base meter fees" for having more than one meter, since all these meters are all the same billing rate now that the party is over?
> 
> Rather than a separate meter, I have a little grey box my utility installed next to my A/C compressor unit that provides 6 months of discount (up to $9 per month) in return for allowing my electric utility to potentially cut power to my A/C compressor unit. I'm not sure I've ever noticed it disconnect my A/C. All my friends I spoke to who were enrolled in the program said "the power company rarely activates it, but I'll take all the discounts I can get". With an all electric house, I agreed with their logic, and it pays April to October whether they choose to use it.



Yes, there is a meter fee, something like $1 each bill for that residual meter. It's BS, I know but time fighting customer service is worth more than that to me. Even the time to rewire everything, or paying an electrician isn't worth the effort yet, and if they did take away that meter, I'd have to redo my siding too. For now, I like knowing how much my Geospring saves me.

We've got that interrupt device on the A/C too, the first year it was worth $60 or $80, but I think they only refunded $30 this year, and I understand the scheme hasn't been a huge success, so the refunds may end. I never noticed the interruption, although on those days of anticipated high demand, I made sure not to setback my thermostat so far. The online complaints I read appear to be from malfunctioning boxes causing extended interruptions, or people who were somehow upset that their a/c was actually interrupted!

TE


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 9, 2015)

billjustbill said:


> Today, I read about the lowering cost of solar panels and came across this concept.  No plumbing on the roof.  It uses solar PV panels of about 750 watts to go through a controller that then wires into a standard electric water heater.  One concept lets one the 220v elements remain hooked to the house wiring while the other 220v element is heated by solar electric power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Their website gave me a headache.   It's an interesting idea though.

Here is a bit more unbiased explanation of the idea with pros and cons.  The article appears old from the costs mentioned.


http://sel.me.wisc.edu/trnsys/downloads/trnsedapps/demos/pvsdhw.htm


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