# Well issues



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

I was searching for explanation for my high electric use and found that my well is likely running more than it should. I pulled the cap to see if I could see the pitless adapter leaking. This well has a vented cap but the PO had it sealed and some bubble wrap shoved in the 1st few feet of the casing. I removed the bubble wrap and put the cap back on and the well blows air just like this:

I shut the well off last night and this morning the gauge was 0. So this well is a weird setup where the pressure tank (spun fiberglass) is buried outside. I'm thinking this was done because the PO had the well drilled about 5 years before he built the house. Maybe an alternative to building a well house? So at some point they ran the switch and gauge (with 3/8") hose under the house. Here is a diagram of my set up





My thoughts are to dig the pressure tank and pitless adapter up today and see how all this is ran and see if there's a leak in this hose system which I think there might be as the hose and switch power are ran inside a 2" pic and there is water in the pvc.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

Based on what my suspected pressure loss it the well is having to kick on every 3 hours or so. So 8 times a day in addition to normal use.


----------



## heat seeker (Jan 2, 2017)

Where is the air coming from? I would guess it's feeding from the electrical pipe...? But there has to be something pressurizing the air, and the air has to be coming from somewhere.

I had a similar problem, but one of the symptoms was wet ground around the well head. Turns out a fitting near the pitless has been eaten away by the acidic water, and was leaking water constantly, like leaving a faucet on.

I'll be watching this thread, as this is a really interesting situation.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

heat seeker said:


> Where is the air coming from? I would guess it's feeding from the electrical pipe...? But there has to be something pressurizing the air, and the air has to be coming from somewhere.
> 
> I had a similar problem, but one of the symptoms was wet ground around the well head. Turns out a fitting near the pitless has been eaten away by the acidic water, and was leaking water constantly, like leaving a faucet on.
> 
> I'll be watching this thread, as this is a really interesting situation.


Not sure where the air is coming from.  Almost like the well hole is pressurized. If you can imagine this: it appears that the pipe below the pitless adapter has a "t" and a pressure relief valve on it. From that tee a 3/8" line is ran. About 1.5' above the pitless adapter is a hole in the casing. The 3/8 line and switch power is ran into that hole. It comes out in the house through a 2" pvc. The switch and guage are about 15-20' from the tank and well. I have all the paper work that a certified well guy installed this set up and it was inspected when i bought the place. So im assuming that the design is okay.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

Lowered a flashlight down and ran the pump and there was no indication of any leaks. The well pump seems to get to pressure like it should. It a 7 gal/min 1.5 hp  pump.  The tank capacity at 30psi says its 17.7 gal. The pump will run about 2 minutes to fill the tank.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

I still can't explain the well blowing air deal. Not much info out there but what there is is saying barometric pressure can cause blowing/sucking so maybe? Any how to the pressure issue: I found 1 of my frost free hydrants not adjusted right. Not enough pressure to send it out the stand pipe but I could hear it with my ear to the pipe. I was losing 6psi per hour and now it's holding at 50psi for the last 2 hours. So I'm optimistic I figured it out.


----------



## heat seeker (Jan 2, 2017)

I hope that you found the problem! Is there anything in the house that would raise the interior pressure? That pressure could be coming out through the 2" pipe and escaping in the well casing...maybe. Maybe the wind blowing on the house, or something equally odd. It sounds like a large volume of air escaping.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

heat seeker said:


> I hope that you found the problem! Is there anything in the house that would raise the interior pressure? That pressure could be coming out through the 2" pipe and escaping in the well casing...maybe. Maybe the wind blowing on the house, or something equally odd. It sounds like a large volume of air escaping.


No the 2" pvc pipe blows about the same pressure. As I under stand it, its because of a fairly deep well (375') and the temp and pressure are just creating a differential.  But now I know why the PO had bubble wrap in the 1st few feet of exposed casing. The rush of air just creates an ice block when it hits the surface if it's not insulated.  So the bubble wrap insulated and more or less forces the air to come out through the 2" pipe under the house. Free ventilation I guess?


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2017)

Does the air blowing out of the well smell like anything. Did you try to light it? 

The regular place for a leak in the well is at a threaded joint in the galvanized drop pipe. Usually right at the pump but sometimes at the water level. With poly pipe it's down where the floppy poly rubs against the casing until it leaks.

I've never seen a pitless leak.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Does the air blowing out of the well smell like anything. Did you try to light it?
> 
> The regular place for a leak in the well is at a threaded joint in the galvanized drop pipe. Usually right at the pump but sometimes at the water level. With poly pipe it's down where the floppy poly rubs against the casing until it leaks.
> 
> I've never seen a pitless leak.


It's all galvanized pipe according to the well log.  No smell and I did try and light it. Actually I was checking the air direction with a lighter when I realized that may not be a good idea. But it didn't light! Just blew the flame out. I don't think there's any other leaks in the system other than the one at the hydrant. It held 50psi for 4 hours with the pump off.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2017)

rwhite said:


> It's all galvanized pipe according to the well log.  No smell and I did try and light it. Actually I was checking the air direction with a lighter when I realized that may not be a good idea. But it didn't light! Just blew the flame out. I don't think there's any other leaks in the system other than the one at the hydrant. It held 50psi for 4 hours with the pump off.



With a proper expansion tank you will lose a lot of water before the pressure drops. I think that leak might have been pretty big.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> With a proper expansion tank you will lose a lot of water before the pressure drops. I think that leak might have been pretty big.


Probably was. I figure if the tank held 17.7 gal and it had to kick on probably closer to every 2 hours, it was running about .14 gal/min. So had to be around 200 gal a day.  Must have been adjusted just to the point of not letting it up the stand pipe but still through the bleed hole. Was definitely noticeable when I put my ear to the pipe.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

I don't know how much of a temp differential it would take to cause warm air in the casing to rise. At 380' the water temp was 54 degrees according to the log. But if it's 9 outside and 54 in the hole, maybe?


----------



## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

Don't know why I didn't think of this (wrong forum I guess ) but how would the well be any different than a chimney? Apply heat to a chimney and it pulls air. The taller the chimney the more pull. If the temp at 350' is 54 degrees, that's quite a stack effect.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 3, 2017)

Yeah, but your chimney is open to atmosphere at the bottom.


----------



## heat seeker (Jan 3, 2017)

rwhite said:


> Don't know why I didn't think of this (wrong forum I guess ) but how would the well be any different than a chimney? Apply heat to a chimney and it pulls air. The taller the chimney the more pull. If the temp at 350' is 54 degrees, that's quite a stack effect.



Good point, but if all that air is coming out, where is the replacement air getting in?


----------



## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

heat seeker said:


> Good point, but if all that air is coming out, where is the replacement air getting in?


IDK. But riddle me this one; I go out today and it's not blowing air any longer. Could it have been the pump ran so much it created a vacuum and it took a day to stabilze?


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2017)

rwhite said:


> IDK. But riddle me this one; I go out today and it's not blowing air any longer. Could it have been the pump ran so much it created a vacuum and it took a day to stabilze?



You said it was blowing out. The only time I can see air being blown out is after an equal amount of air was drawn in. This would happen when the water level of the well is drawn down during pumping (suck in air) and then the pump shuts off and the water from below refills the casing which would expel the air from the casing.

Ignore barometric pressure, stack effect, and temperature all of those are constant. You are dealing with a low production and very deep well. So it is possible that drawdown during pumping is very large. It has to be this.

Be sure that the vent holes in your cap are screened to keep bugs and mice out. It is relatively warm in that well and might draw in critters.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> You said it was blowing out. The only time I can see air being blown out is after an equal amount of air was drawn in. This would happen when the water level of the well is drawn down during pumping (suck in air) and then the pump shuts off and the water from below refills the casing which would expel the air from the casing.
> 
> Ignore barometric pressure, stack effect, and temperature all of those are constant. You are dealing with a low production and very deep well. So it is possible that drawdown during pumping is very large. It has to be this.
> 
> Be sure that the vent holes in your cap are screened to keep bugs and mice out. It is relatively warm in that well and might draw in critters.


According to the well log there was zero drawdown on a 1hr test at 7 gal min. But that was also 15 years ago. Who knows? I suppose if it keeps pumping and has no leaks I'll quit worrying about it.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2017)

rwhite said:


> According to the well log there was zero drawdown on a 1hr test at 7 gal min. But that was also 15 years ago. Who knows? I suppose if it keeps pumping and has no leaks I'll quit worrying about it.



Well we know there is more than zero drawdown. The guy just didn't measure it. If there was minimal drawdown then they would have given you a higher pumping rate like 15 gpm which is the normal water meter flow rate for a normal home. I agree, don't worry if it's not leaking down.

You know those expansion tanks don't last forever and with yours being buried I doubt that anybody has checked the air pressure in it. Won't save money but will save your pump from short cycles.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Well we know there is more than zero drawdown. The guy just didn't measure it. If there was minimal drawdown then they would have given you a higher pumping rate like 15 gpm which is the normal water meter flow rate for a normal home. I agree, don't worry if it's not leaking down.
> 
> You know those expansion tanks don't last forever and with yours being buried I doubt that anybody has checked the air pressure in it. Won't save money but will save your pump from short cycles.


Pressure tank is only buried to ground level. I checked the air pressure in it. It was 30 psi. It's a spun fiberglass tank. If it ever needs replaced it's going under the house where it belongs though.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2017)

rwhite said:


> Pressure tank is only buried to ground level. I checked the air pressure in it. It was 30 psi. It's a spun fiberglass tank. If it ever needs replaced it's going under the house where it belongs though.



And your pressure switch is a 40/60? The diaphragms inside fail.


----------



## semipro (Jan 3, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Ignore barometric pressure, stack effect, and temperature all of those are constant. You are dealing with a low production and very deep well. So it is possible that drawdown during pumping is very large. It has to be this.


Agreed.  These are red herrings. 
Gas (e.g. air) coming out of the wellhead is either coming from the formation your well is installed in or from some other external source such as the conduit the power wire is enclosed in. If it only occurs when the pump is shut off its recovery displacement as Highbeam notes.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> And your pressure switch is a 40/60? The diaphragms inside fail.


No I reset the switch to 32-52


----------



## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

semipro said:


> Agreed.  These are red herrings.
> Gas (e.g. air) coming out of the wellhead is either coming from the formation your well is installed in or from some other external source such as the conduit the power wire is enclosed in. If it only occurs when the pump is shut off its recovery displacement as Highbeam notes.




IDK, like I said it blew all day yesterday and hasn't done it at all today. Never seen anything like it.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 4, 2017)

You will do even better (electricity use & pump/tank life) if you drop your pressures even more. I mentioned in the other thread that ours is at 20/35 (or so). It seems to serve us OK. It won't blast you out of the shower, but it's certainly enough to wash the shampoo out. Overall savings likely depends how hard a time your pump has reaching that highest pressure though - our 3/4 hp convertible pump running shallow well mode in a what is likely actually a deep well situation struggles when it gets up over 35. But the one (main?) side effect is that at lower pressures, less water will be wasted in those 'tap left running' moments - which reduces your overall pumping even more. Adding more tank capacity will also reduce your pump cycles & give more reserve for power outage situations - adding another tank is on my to-do list here, somewhere...


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Just 1 last check in to say I have no idea. Well blew air for 2 days and hasn't done it since. My only guess is the leak caused the pump to run so much it created a vacuum.  One unintended consequence of fixing the leak was the following day the pitless adapter froze up. Probably would have done it sooner had water not been running all the time. For the time being I have a droplight hung inside the casing and insulated the heck out of it and put a trash can covering the well head.. It will have to do until I get the to dig out 4ft of snow and build a well house.

Thanks!


----------



## maple1 (Jan 11, 2017)

I might have missed it - exactly what/where was the leak?


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I might have missed it - exactly what/where was the leak?



This



rwhite said:


> I found 1 of my frost free hydrants not adjusted right. Not enough pressure to send it out the stand pipe but I could hear it with my ear to the pipe. I was losing 6psi per hour and now it's holding at 50psi for the last 2 hours. So I'm optimistic I figured it out.



I actually went around to every bare pipe with a stethoscope to find it. I ran the pressure again after adjustments and it held over night. Based on pressure loss and pressure tank size  my calculations were about 2-300 gal a day going out the pipe.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 11, 2017)

Sorry that I am coming to this late but you mention at some point replacing the pressure tank. The new approach which is also more efficient is to retrofit a variable speed drive to the well pump. As long as its a three wire with an external capacitor Franklin electric sells a plug in replacement for the capacitor. With a variable speed pump, there is no need for a large pressure tank, just a puny one that can easily be hidden in the house. The pump doesn't cycle on and off abruptly it just speeds up and slows down as needed to supply a constant set pressure. With a set reliable pressure, most folks can lower run overall lower pressure. Franklin and other firms also sell a pump protector that monitors the pump operation and shuts it down if there are unusual operating conditions, like continuous leaks. They can be annoying as they usually kick the pump off when the other issue first occurs but all you need to do is unplug it and then you can diagnose the root cause. The pumps last longer as they are normally running at a lower speed and they don't get deadheaded when the pressure switch trips off. Its also a lot easier on the piping getting rid of the deadheading. There is potentially big electrical savings and if you ever need to run the pump off a generator it cuts the surge load down considerably so you an get way with a smaller generator.

Obviously if you have low yield well without a lot of storage in the casing a big expansion tank my be preferable.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 11, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> As long as its a three wire with an external capacitor Franklin electric sells a plug in replacement for the capacitor.



When the time comes, I'd be interested in replacing my well pump with something that has less surge load.  My current (deep well) pump is 240 v. - two wires with a ground wire.  No capacitor in the house.  What do you think would be necessary?  Thanks.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

I do have a low production well. 7 gal/min Pump sits at 350ft. I think its a 3 wire. The switch at the main power pole is routed into an additional box which may hold the capacitor (never opened it yet). As far as I know my pressure tank is still good but if there's ever an issue I think I will move it under the house.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 11, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Sorry that I am coming to this late but you mention at some point replacing the pressure tank. The new approach which is also more efficient is to retrofit a variable speed drive to the well pump. As long as its a three wire with an external capacitor Franklin electric sells a plug in replacement for the capacitor. With a variable speed pump, there is no need for a large pressure tank, just a puny one that can easily be hidden in the house. The pump doesn't cycle on and off abruptly it just speeds up and slows down as needed to supply a constant set pressure. With a set reliable pressure, most folks can lower run overall lower pressure. Franklin and other firms also sell a pump protector that monitors the pump operation and shuts it down if there are unusual operating conditions, like continuous leaks. They can be annoying as they usually kick the pump off when the other issue first occurs but all you need to do is unplug it and then you can diagnose the root cause. The pumps last longer as they are normally running at a lower speed and they don't get deadheaded when the pressure switch trips off. Its also a lot easier on the piping getting rid of the deadheading. There is potentially big electrical savings and if you ever need to run the pump off a generator it cuts the surge load down considerably so you an get way with a smaller generator.
> 
> Obviously is you have low yield well without a lot of storage in the casing a big expansion tank my be preferable.



This is for submersible pumps?


----------



## maple1 (Jan 11, 2017)

rwhite said:


> This
> 
> 
> 
> I actually went around to every bare pipe with a stethoscope to find it. I ran the pressure again after adjustments and it held over night. Based on pressure loss and pressure tank size  my calculations were about 2-300 gal a day going out the pipe.



Ok, feeling dumb - I don't know what a frost free hydrant is.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

maple1 said:


> Ok, feeling dumb - I don't know what a frost free hydrant is.



http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/search/Frost free hydrant
There is a bleeder valve below the frost line. Once you shut it off all the water will drain from the stand pipe.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 11, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> When the time comes, I'd be interested in replacing my well pump with something that has less surge load.  My current (deep well) pump is 240 v. - two wires with a ground wire.  No capacitor in the house.  What do you think would be necessary?  Thanks.



Sorry, my understanding is that if you don't have a three wire pump, you need to replace the pump.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 11, 2017)

maple1 said:


> This is for submersible pumps?



Yes the retrofit is for deep well submersible pumps as long as they are the newer style with the external capacitor. They sell a similar pump for a shallow well suction type pump, but its a  replacement pump unless someone wants to go inside and get at the start capacitor leg if one exists. I don't think it would work with jet pump (but I may be wrong).

The reason for the remote capacitor is that it is the most failure prone part of a pump motor. If it fails with a two wire pump the well string has to be pulled. With an external capacitor, its just unplug the old one and plug in a new one. I also think the capacitor can get damaged by power surges


----------



## brenndatomu (Jan 11, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Does the air blowing out of the well smell like anything. Did you try to light it?


This could have lead to an amusing situation. (assuming no injuries/damage) 
Say it was some sort of gas leak...WOOOOF...fire!  "911? Yeah, my water well is on fire!"


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 11, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> This could have lead to an amusing situation. (assuming no injuries/damage)
> Say it was some sort of gas leak...WOOOOF...fire!  "911? Yeah, my water well is on fire!"



If you held a balloon over it and filled it, would the balloon float? If you inhale it does your voice change? I would figure out a way to put a tire inner tube on it so that it made a three hour long fart sound!


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 11, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Obviously is you have low yield well without a lot of storage in the casing a big expansion tank my be preferable.



Another solution to this is to install an unpressurized tank on the surface. Well pump just keeps it full, booster pump draws from tank and provides domestic pressure. This trick allows even a low producing well to provide fire flow for sprinklers, irrigation water, and satisfy other high demand uses so long as the storage tank is big enough. Also allows some interesting water treatment possibilities.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 11, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> This could have lead to an amusing situation. (assuming no injuries/damage)
> Say it was some sort of gas leak...WOOOOF...fire!  "911? Yeah, my water well is on fire!"



This happens down south, I knew someone in eastern tennesee who needed more water and was going to have the well drilled deeper. The driller would not do it as there was shallow gas seam in the area, apparently some of the people in the area had methane in their wells and they could light their water on fire. This happens in area where fracking is occurring where the contractors do bad job sealing the casing. If a neighbor complains they put in an air stripper which is same thing used to take radon out of water.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 11, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Another solution to this is to install an unpressurized tank on the surface. Well pump just keeps it full, booster pump draws from tank and provides domestic pressure. This trick allows even a low producing well to provide fire flow for sprinklers, irrigation water, and satisfy other high demand uses so long as the storage tank is big enough. Also allows some interesting water treatment possibilities.



A lot of the folks with off grid wells do this, they have a small DC pump that pumps water while the sun shines. It fills a large storage tank preferably at a higher elevation then the house. They then either run the house on gravity or with a small booster pump. If the water needs to be purified they can put a UV lamp in the tank. It also can be done with tank in the attic but that adds a lot of structural and seismic load on the framing.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> A lot of the folks with off grid wells do this, they have a small DC pump that pumps water while the sun shines. It fills a large storage tank preferably at a higher elevation then the house. They then either run the house on gravity or with a small booster pump. If the water needs to be purified they can put a UV lamp in the tank. It also can be done with tank in the attic but that adds a lot of structural and seismic load on the framing.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Interesting. My parents did something similar prior to having a well. 1000 gal water buffalo that would gravity feed to 1500 gal of storage in the house. Jet pump would fill the pressure tank. Worked well but required an entire other building to house the tanks and keep them from freezing. I could envision a bladder under the house if i ever had volume issues but the 7 gal/min is adequate for my needs. 

Is there a dc pump capable of 350'  pump in a 4" case?


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> This happens down south, I knew someone in eastern tennesee who needed more water and was going to have the well drilled deeper. The driller would not do it as there was shallow gas seam in the area, apparently some of the people in the area had methane in their wells and they could light their water on fire. This happens in area where fracking is occurring where the contractors do bad job sealing the casing. If a neighbor complains they put in an air stripper which is same thing used to take radon out of water.


Did quite a bit of research on this when a few NG well proposals came across my desk. From what I could gather was because of the expense of putting in the well the investors wanted a quick payload and would frack above the water table (along with poor sealing). Seemed that quite often fracking above the table in close proximity to water wells created some problems.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 11, 2017)

rwhite said:


> I could envision a bladder under the house if i ever had volume issues



They call them cisterns.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> They call them cisterns.


And the difference is?


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 11, 2017)

rwhite said:


> And the difference is?



In the olden days, they used to build these concrete/brick tanks under the house or under the porch that held a lot of water for domestic use. The cistern could be filled by a well, a gravity spring, or buckets, but like your rubber bladder idea they acted as a reservoir to satisfy demands in the home.


----------



## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> In the olden days, they used to build these concrete/brick tanks under the house or under the porch that held a lot of water for domestic use. The cistern could be filled by a well, a gravity spring, or buckets, but like your rubber bladder idea they acted as a reservoir to satisfy demands in the home.


There ain't a lot of digging that happens on this pile of basalt I live on. I could probably dig a 20 gal storage. And a 3x4 hole is my only access under the house so a bladder ( technically a cistern) would be the only possibility.  Either way i dont have any issues now to warrant such a system.


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 11, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> In the olden days, they used to build these concrete/brick tanks under the house or under the porch that held a lot of water for domestic use. The cistern could be filled by a well, a gravity spring, or buckets, but like your rubber bladder idea they acted as a reservoir to satisfy demands in the home.


A friend of ours had a cistern in their basement of a old home they bought ... eavestroughs/gutters were tied in to the cistern to bring rainwater in off the roof into the cistern.  As I said ... old house and they did finally reclaim that part of the basement by removing the cistern and rerouting the eavestrough.  The rainbarrels that can be bought now are the same idea only the water is used for watering gardens and grass only; not for human consumption.

rwhite, glad you found the leak.  As I was reading, I was wondering if it was the underground tank and fittings that were giving you grief.  Tough to repair any of that in the winter.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 12, 2017)

rwhite said:


> Interesting. My parents did something similar prior to having a well. 1000 gal water buffalo that would gravity feed to 1500 gal of storage in the house. Jet pump would fill the pressure tank. Worked well but required an entire other building to house the tanks and keep them from freezing. I could envision a bladder under the house if i ever had volume issues but the 7 gal/min is adequate for my needs.
> 
> Is there a dc pump capable of 350'  pump in a 4" case?



Yup, Grundfoss SQU flex http://www.sunshineworks.com/solar-submersible-well-pumps.htm

Of course you need a power source to drive it.  Positive displacement pumps don't have usually have issues with depth, centrifugal ( typically AC) pumps are the ones that have a tough time the deeper it gets.


----------

