# "Off the Grid": The growing appeal of going off the grid



## BrotherBart (Aug 9, 2010)

"A rising number of Americans -- political extremists and normal folks -- are living without gas, phones or power"

http://www.salon.com/books/nonficti...ure/2010/08/09/off_the_grid_interview_ext2010


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## smokinj (Aug 9, 2010)

Sure looks good at times.


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## peakbagger (Aug 9, 2010)

There are folks who truly live off grid but many others who trade one utility for another. Most off grid installations require battery banks and the majority of these battery banks require replacement every 7 to 10 years if they are treated correctly and frequently last less than 3 years for first timers. They generally require a gas or diesel generator to be run every 1 to 2 months for 12 to 24 hours to equalize the state of charge in the battery bank. Generally most off gird electric systems long term operating costs when capital costs, battery bank replacements and inevitably inverter "smokings" figure 35 to 50 cents per kW. 

Other folks I have run into say they are "off grid" and claim very low electric power use. Frequently after talking to them for awhile, they have a gas refrigerator, gas dryer and backup gas electric hot water heater.  Sure they are the grid, but when the propane truck pulls up the driveway, they dont fill your tanks for free. 

There are some regional examples of self sustaining buildings but their initial costs are usually subsidized by some federal grant or its a non profit that has willing donors. I generally consider them great as "concepts" but when you start trying to figure the economics, I expect the rate of return is as bad as wht one could current get with a CD.


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## BucksCoBernie (Aug 10, 2010)

I love this subject and I'm all for being more self sufficient but there's no way im crapping in a composter! 

I've been looking at solar systems for a while now and just cant get past the cost even with the tax rebates. 10yr payback is a long time to wait. I might start small and set up a small solar electric system for my greenhouse once its ready.


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## woodsman23 (Aug 10, 2010)

It's not all about the payback, it is however about be efficient and saving non renewable energy, wood, solar,wind, it's about saving a planet not a bank account. commitment costs money plain and simple. You do then someone else will do it and then more and more. I am 30% off the grid and only need propane once every 2 years and if need be i can get by without it at all. I use wind/solar and my batteries are well over 5 years old and are from wally world marine batteries which i have 6 at a cost of 75 bucks each. It's not easy being totally off the grid but it is a great feeling to make your own power no matter how much it is..


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## begreen (Aug 10, 2010)

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> I love this subject and I'm all for being more self sufficient but there's no way im crapping in a composter!
> 
> I've been looking at solar systems for a while now and just cant get past the cost even with the tax rebates. 10yr payback is a long time to wait. I might start small and set up a small solar electric system for my greenhouse once its ready.



10 years goes by all too quickly.


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## Fi-Q (Aug 11, 2010)

woodsman23 said:
			
		

> It's not easy being totally off the grid but it is a great feeling to make your own power no matter how much it is..



My house sit in Québec where there is 0 incentive or taxe rebate for residential renewable. I am not planning to go off-grid because the grid is there, it is cheap and somehow pretty reliable. But, eventually, I want to have a solar grid-tie with back up system.  For the price of power in Québec I am 99% it will never pay for itself. But, I am making a living with green energy, so, it's a goal for me, to make my part, and too, I want the ''Back Up''. So far, here what I think my system will be if it ever happen: maybe 8 to 16 batteries, with a Xantrex XW 6048, 800 watt of solar panel, maybe eventually 1 wind mill far enough from the house, and a diesel generator, just in case. I am from Eastern Québec, in the Gaspe péninsula, and I am pretty sure that if ever there is a HUGHE natural diisaster we will be one of the last place in Québec to be re-connected. I may never do it, but it is not about money, it's all about myself, the way I want to leave, my little ''Doom Day side'' and the little Green Boy inside of me...... I guess I need to see that as a hobby.......

   But who knopws right, power price keep going up... and up.... and up.... and the price of small scale renewable system keep coming down, maybe in 30-40 year for now (I am planning on still being alive then, hopefully anyway) maybe it just make sense to have our off-grid system......


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## pyper (Aug 13, 2010)

peakbagger said:
			
		

> There are folks who truly live off grid but many others who trade one utility for another.



Living off grid means not being connected to government utilities.

Unless you're going to grow all your own food and use a mule to plow you're going to be dependent on buying stuff from other people. I don't see any practical difference in depending on other people for fuel or for food or for transportation.

There was an interesting article on living off grid in the Christian Science Monitor recently. One of the households they featured is doing solar in the woods in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 13, 2010)

pyper said:
			
		

> Living off grid means not being connected to government utilities.



Dang! I am off the grid and didn't know it. Our electric company isn't owned by a government, it's a co-op, and we have a well and septic system.

I am greener than I thought!   :lol:


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## Badfish740 (Aug 13, 2010)

pyper said:
			
		

> peakbagger said:
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I guess the more accurate term is "self sufficient."  Unless you want to live very primitively, true self sufficiency is pretty much impossible.  Even if you had a large enough solar array to provide all of your power needs without battery storage (which would be extremely wasteful and expensive), inverters go bad, etc...and you're not going to be fixing them with hand tools.  There's nothing wrong with trying though.


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## pyper (Aug 13, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> pyper said:
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But unless you're on an island, then your electric is connected to all the rest.


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## timfromohio (Aug 13, 2010)

woodsman23 said:
			
		

> It's not all about the payback, it is however about be efficient and saving non renewable energy, wood, solar,wind, it's about saving a planet not a bank account. commitment costs money plain and simple. You do then someone else will do it and then more and more. I am 30% off the grid and only need propane once every 2 years and if need be i can get by without it at all. I use wind/solar and my batteries are well over 5 years old and are from wally world marine batteries which i have 6 at a cost of 75 bucks each. It's not easy being totally off the grid but it is a great feeling to make your own power no matter how much it is..




For me it would have nothing to do with saving the planet or saving and more to do with becoming more self-sufficient and simply not tied to the grid.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 16, 2010)

Solar and wind are pretty much site dependent.  As much as I'd like, my place is surrounded by a lot of trees and doesn't face south.  It is on a hill but even though it's a little windier than down at the bottom, the surrounding trees would shadow a bunch of wind I'd think.

On the way to work, we pass a guy with a fairly new wind generator on an aluminum flag pole in his front yard.  It's a fairly open location, but that thing is hardly ever spinning when we see it.  Today it was, but there's a front coming in.  It really warms my heart that we contributed, what, half?, to this POS gizmo with our over-inflated utility bills.

For me, the well pump is the most current draw on startup.  I've heard there are soft-start models, but to improve in this area I'd have to pull the submersible pump out from it's current location 450' beneath the earth's surface and replace that perfectly good pump, so far, knock on wood, with a new more expensive model.  Even then, there's the constant load when it's running which is substantial.

As far as disasters in Quebec, remember 1998?


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## pyper (Aug 16, 2010)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I've heard there are soft-start models, but to improve in this area I'd have to pull the submersible pump out from it's current location 450' beneath the earth's surface and replace that perfectly good pump, so far, knock on wood, with a new more expensive model.



I helped my uncle do that on his farm. I think the old pump burned out. His was about 400 feet down, too. It wasn't that hard to get it out, actually, but definitely a two person job. One to carry the top end of the pipe out into the field, and one to keep it from getting torn up on the well casing. But I wouldn't do it if the one that's down there is working.


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## benjamin (Aug 16, 2010)

"Off Grid" is the biggest red herring in the housing and energy field. Simple people apparently get off on words like "off grid", "hybrid", and worst of all "green". It's completely self defeating to spend more on these "experimental" technologies than will ever be returned on the investment. The only good thing about "off grid" is that it forces the users to scrutinize every watt out of necessity, in the vast majority of cases fewer resources would be used by retaining the grid and doing a small portion of the conservation required to live off grid.

I've seen time and time again, sometimes even helped with installations that make zero sense aside from the ego stroking and attention getting. For instance, installing a small PV/battery/inverter system for a building because it's not that much more than the utility would charge to run power to the location, if you need a 200 amp service you'd be spending hundreds of thousands if not millions in renewables, if you only need a few killowatts a day you could run some 12-2 UF for a fraction of the cost (or "resources" for the greenwashed) of a chincy system that will be a constant pita.

I've been told that even islands are often connected to the grid by way of undersea cable. Tasmania has a connection to mainland Australia to use coal fired power because they stopped building hydro out of environmental concerns.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 16, 2010)

Heck, I believe there's a proposal to feed NYC more juice from Canada with a line in under lake Champlain, the Hudson river, etc.

As I said earlier, I object to paying the 50% or whatever to help defray the cost of ineffective renewable projects for other rate payers.  it's not a free lunch - I paid for that lunch.


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## oldspark (Aug 16, 2010)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Heck, I believe there's a proposal to feed NYC more juice from Canada with a line in under lake Champlain, the Hudson river, etc.
> 
> As I said earlier, I object to paying the 50% or whatever to help defray the cost of ineffective renewable projects for other rate payers.  it's not a free lunch - I paid for that lunch.


 There are wind turbines that work, they are only part of the solution and what is the 50% of the funding you are talking about, a tax break or what?


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## velvetfoot (Aug 17, 2010)

Any funding, taxes or the "system benefit charge" they take it out of our electric bills.


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## dvellone (Sep 9, 2010)

My wife, two kids and I live "off grid" in upstate NY with all of our electric needs supplied by a 1400+ watt solar array and battery storage. The initial cost of our system was comparable to bringing in grid power so we could have gone either way. We liked the idea of our own on site system, and a limited amount of power which would force us to use electricity as though it wasn't an unlimited resource. We also get many power outages around these parts and liked the advantage of never having one ourselves. 

That said, I'll be the first to vouch for the fact that it isn't cheap. The system cost is a deep investment, and if you plan on making your house as efficient as possible so that you don't gobble up all you power you're in for many related expenses. We ran two strands of wire throughout the house to provide ac as well as dc outlets. Our lighting is all dc and the bulbs aren't cheap. Our submersible is dc and it's cost is much more than an ac model. The high efficiency dc ceiling fan cost a couple times more than a standard ac and the variable speed switch wasn't includes (that cost as much as a ac fan). And the dc refrigerators? I'll just say that after 6 years on our system I still can't bring myself to write the check though we do have a standard ac fridge. We did recently double the size of our solar array and upgrade our charge controller which further increased the efficiency of our system and received a 55% rebate between federal and state incentives.

I won't bother trying to figure out when I'll break even. I doubt it'll ever happen. Electricity isn't that expensive here and if your on-grid house is as efficient as ours your bills would be negligible. I live in the woods though and being off grid contributes to my sense of self -sufficiency just as my wood stove does. (the labor I put into firewood if put into my trade would pay my heating bills many times over).

I have to point out that the life of the system - even the batteries - is much longer than what some folks think. The components are all solid-state, the solar panels have a twenty year warranty and my batteries - all deep cell lead acid - are holding as much power now as they did 6 years ago. I have friends who have the same batteries they installed 20 years ago. Keeping them charged properly and well cared for will keep them healthy for many years. Change the oil on your car every 4k miles? Water your batteries every two months.  As far as generator use goes, that is up to the system user. I know folks who want to live off-grid as though they're on-grid with no concern for the amount of power they consume, and they run their generator every day during the "dark months", while others who when their storage is getting low adjust their consumption so they never have to run a generator. 

As for ourselves we're doing laundry, watching tv, listening to the stereo, using the computer just like the rest of you or maybe even more so.  One big difference is that to some extent we keep our eyes on the meter between October and January. If the battery bank is approaching 60% we'll maybe hold off doing 3 loads of laundry in one day, or if there's no chance for sun for days ahead we'll charge up to 100% with the generator (a honda 5000 watt). That takes around 5 hours. This is based on our 1/2 array. With the upgrade those days will be far fewer if at all. 

We're definitely not living an austere existence here. We do turn out lights when we're not using a room and the tv isn't on all day long as background sound, but I have a wood shop and I'm regularly running my table saw, chop saw, and other equipment as well as doing a fair amount of mill work. I've never been unable to run this equipment nor have had to run the generator to work in my shop. And I'll point out again that I live in upstate NY, due East of the Great Lakes. Sunny Arizona it ain't. Now if I lived there I might try to figure my break even point.


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## vvvv (Sep 9, 2010)

dvellone said:
			
		

> My wife, two kids and I live "off grid" in upstate NY with all of our electric needs supplied by a 1400+ watt solar array and battery storage. The initial cost of our system was comparable to bringing in grid power so we could have gone either way. We liked the idea of our own on site system, and a limited amount of power which would force us to use electricity as though it wasn't an unlimited resource. We also get many power outages around these parts and liked the advantage of never having one ourselves.
> 
> That said, I'll be the first to vouch for the fact that it isn't cheap. The system cost is a deep investment, and if you plan on making your house as efficient as possible so that you don't gobble up all you power you're in for many related expenses. We ran two strands of wire throughout the house to provide ac as well as dc outlets. Our lighting is all dc and the bulbs aren't cheap. Our submersible is dc and it's cost is much more than an ac model. The high efficiency dc ceiling fan cost a couple times more than a standard ac and the variable speed switch wasn't includes (that cost as much as a ac fan). And the dc refrigerators? I'll just say that after 6 years on our system I still can't bring myself to write the check though we do have a standard ac fridge. We did recently double the size of our solar array and upgrade our charge controller which further increased the efficiency of our system and received a 55% rebate between federal and state incentives.
> 
> ...


no standby generator 4u?


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## MrEd (Sep 10, 2010)

I am mostly "off the grid", in the generic sense - 100% wood heat that comes from my property, well water and private septic system. In order to get off the "real grid", i.e. electric, would require a huge investment on my part, and I would make it if I thought I could get payback in 7-10 years, but I don't think I can.


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## dvellone (Sep 11, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> dvellone said:
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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 22, 2010)

Were all "off the grid " when the power goes out. That s the beauty of a wood stove, makes heat,light and cooks food without electric.


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## billjustbill (Sep 26, 2010)

dvellone said:
			
		

> ....
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> We're definitely not living an austere existence here. We do turn out lights when we're not using a room and the tv isn't on all day long as background sound, but I have a wood shop and I'm regularly running my table saw, chop saw, and other equipment as well as doing a fair amount of mill work. I've never been unable to run this equipment nor have had to run the generator to work in my shop. And I'll point out again that I live in upstate NY, due East of the Great Lakes. Sunny Arizona it ain't. Now if I lived there I might try to figure my break even point.



Could you share what controller and inverter you use?  I'm starting a small solar array and by your description of your lifestyle, I'd like mine to work like yours.  What size and kind of batteries are working for you?

Thanks for sharing,
Bill


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 7, 2010)

Have a cabin in the woods with no electricity, been thinking about trying to Live like the amish, gas lamps,wood stove for heat,cookong and light at night,  live as simple as possible, just to see what its like.We may have to do that at some point anyway.


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## snosurfa7 (Oct 7, 2010)

I think a lot of people are forgetting food (and water) is the most important part to being off-grid.  You can have all the power you want but without food you are out of luck.

Someone else did mention you need to hand plow but other than that you better have some seed and the ability to make that seed grow year in and year out.  Plus lots of ammo (unless you make your own) and a good rifle/shotgun coupled with lots of deer running around and hopes that you have somewhere to keep that meat cold.

It can be done, check out the story of Richard Proenneke in the video "Alone in the Wilderness" - what he did was amazing and definitely takes a certain type of person.

Not to rain on the "off the grid" parade - I think it is still a great idea because if utility costs ever rise or a natural or man-made disaster ever happens you will be better off than most folks for at least awhile until some infrastructure is restored.  I love the idea but dang I love my big old v8 pickup truck and even though I can fix it to an extent I still need an Advance Auto Parts store nearby to get a part and some source of fuel to get me there....


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## dvellone (Oct 8, 2010)

snosurfa7 said:
			
		

> I think a lot of people are forgetting food (and water) is the most important part to being off-grid.  You can have all the power you want but without food you are out of luck.
> 
> Someone else did mention you need to hand plow but other than that you better have some seed and the ability to make that seed grow year in and year out.  Plus lots of ammo (unless you make your own) and a good rifle/shotgun coupled with lots of deer running around and hopes that you have somewhere to keep that meat cold.
> 
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I think that "off the grid" is sometimes being automatically associated with self-reliance, while the "grid" many are referring to is the simply the electrical grid. Lots of folks are living "off grid" in the electrical sense and still plenty connected (and happy to be) to the conveniences of society. The only difference is that they're electric supply is "on site" and supplying their house alone. It would be pretty tough to imagine being completely "off the grid" in the self reliant sense. I see plenty Amish in my neck of the woods using pay phones and shopping at Walmart occasionally. Even Jeremiah Johnson had to buy his powder somewhere.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 9, 2010)

Growing your own food is not always about getting off the food grid. Some want to know what exactly is in their food that its not loaded with chemicals and anti bio tics and pesticides. Its just a healthier way of living.


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## Hansson (Oct 27, 2010)

Here is a guy that is off the grind.
http://tiny.cc/dy1cl

I think the house is nice


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## homebrewz (Oct 27, 2010)

dvellone said:
			
		

> I have to point out that the life of the system - even the batteries - is much longer than what some folks think. The components are all solid-state, the solar panels have a twenty year warranty and my batteries - all deep cell lead acid - are holding as much power now as they did 6 years ago. I have friends who have the same batteries they installed 20 years ago. Keeping them charged properly and well cared for will keep them healthy for many years. Change the oil on your car every 4k miles? Water your batteries every two months.  As far as generator use goes, that is up to the system user. I know folks who want to live off-grid as though they're on-grid with no concern for the amount of power they consume, and they run their generator every day during the "dark months", while others who when their storage is getting low adjust their consumption so they never have to run a generator.



I think that's right. There are some that make an attempt at living off-grid electricity-wise with little or no attempt to watch power consumption, or literally just pay attention to what they are doing. It potentially skews the statistics for the reliability of these systems.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Oct 28, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Have a cabin in the woods with no electricity, been thinking about trying to Live like the amish, gas lamps,wood stove for heat,cookong and light at night,  live as simple as possible, just to see what its like.We may have to do that at some point anyway.



I have done this before.   I did run a battery radio, and I did shower at a neighbor's house.   I loved the oil lamps.   I missed running water the most, tho' didn't mind the outhouse except in the winter.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 28, 2010)

~*~Kathleen~*~ said:
			
		

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Lots of water around ,shallow well nearby and mountain spring near but none in the cabin yet, ill figure something out. Wind powered pump maybe.


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## billjustbill (Jan 3, 2011)

For that wind powered pump you spoke of,  here is a thread about a windmill that uses a technique powered by a wind driven air pump.  I knew of a couple that used one and because there were not sucker rods to pull, one man can install it.

http://www.fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,136413.html

Bill


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## webbie (Jan 12, 2011)

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> I love this subject and I'm all for being more self sufficient but there's no way im crapping in a composter!



I lived for years with outhouses - not so bad.
Really, the worst part was a middle of the night crap when temps were under 20 or so (this was in TN).

After years living that way, I remember taking a job roofing a nashville apartment complex - they gave our crew an apartment to stay in, and it had a little electric wall heater in the john right next to the toilet!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...........

It's all relative. But the fact is that modern sewer and septic systems do a damn good job of getting rid of waste with little pollution.....and a water deal beats an air seal in most cases.

Many of the public johns in AZ had composting toilets.....in state parks, etc. 
They had powerful fans, so no smell was evident.


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## Thistle (Jan 12, 2011)

That's no big deal. I spend up to 1/3rd of my weekday waking hours on commercial construction sites.Can't remember the last time I was at any that didnt have Kybo's outside,even when it was just a remodel of existing occupied office building or highrise.Let alone any new construction.Whether its 100 above in July or 20 below zero with snow on the seat in February,doesn't matter.


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## hotprinter (Jan 19, 2011)

Here is "off the grid"! In 1967 my wifes dad who was 50, decided to pack up the family and move from New York to Alaska. It took them all summer but they finally made it. They were in time to get some of the last homestead land that was being allocated. They received 200 acres 50 miles out of town, and totally off the grid, totally. The only requirements was to "prove" the land (build a house, clear the trees, plant some crops) and live on it for 5 years. They did it! They built a log cabin, hauled water and wood, heated with a franklin fireplace which needed loading every few hours. Gas lights. Cooked on an antique woodstove. Raised chickens and ducks and goats for milk. The trans alaska pipeline was not even started at that time. The road they lived on (not much of a road at all) became the "haul road" where all of the big trucks would haul the pipe up north to be welded becoming the trans alaska pipeline. What stories they could tell. They grew hay in the summer to feed the horse. They hunted and gardened for food. It was a hard life, but they were of up to the challenge. Now THAT was LIVING OFF THE GRID!. I often wonder how their life would have been with some of the modern tools we have. An outside wood boiler would have been amazing! As would a modern generator. When I talk about getting off the grid, it is much more civilized than that, I am not tough enough to endure the trials they must have faced. My mother in law wrote a really nice book about it called HOME SWEET HOMESTEAD, by Joy Griffin. I was thrilled when she finished it and I got to be one of the first to read it, she was a gem! Anyway, we have "off the grid" much, much easier today...


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2011)

That sounds like the makings for a nice book. Gather as many of those stories and days as possible and get them recorded now.


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## Delta-T (Jan 19, 2011)

i never had to live "off the grid", but the house I lived in, in Germany, was 550 yrs old (the main floor) and the bathroom was part of the detached garage built in the 50's. Had to go outside and walk 20 ft to get to it....kinda not so fun at night in the winter.


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## woodchip (May 23, 2011)

Webmaster said:
			
		

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We capture and store our rainwater for the toilet.

I have never understood why so much effort is put into purifying rainwater into drinking water and piping it all over the place when it ends up being flushed down the toilet.

Not sure if I would be mad about going without electricity.

How would I be able to visit this forum and get my daily fix  ;-)


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## renewablejohn (May 23, 2011)

Why would we want to be off grid. If you have a wind turbine generating 250kw and you can only use 30kw surely it makes sense to export the spare 220kw and get paid by the utility company for your power. Here in UK being connected to the grid is now becoming an easy way to earn money from wind and solar so much so that the government guarantees the income for every kw generated for the next 20 years.


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## Adios Pantalones (May 23, 2011)

renewablejohn said:
			
		

> Why would we want to be off grid. If you have a wind turbine generating 250kw and you can only use 30kw surely it makes sense to export the spare 220kw and get paid by the utility company for your power. Here in UK being connected to the grid is now becoming an easy way to earn money from wind and solar so much so that the government guarantees the income for every kw generated for the next 20 years.



Here you still pay certain usage fees, taxes, etc.  That ends up being a fair bit of money.  The grid can be used as a storage system of sorts for some folks, however.


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## begreen (May 23, 2011)

woodchip said:
			
		

> We capture and store our rainwater for the toilet.
> 
> I have never understood why so much effort is put into purifying rainwater into drinking water and piping it all over the place when it ends up being flushed down the toilet.



How are the toilets fed the rainwater? Have you had any issues with the float valve plugging due to debris?


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## woodchip (May 23, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> How are the toilets fed the rainwater? Have you had any issues with the float valve plugging due to debris?



Gravity feed from a row of tanks which are under the roofline, but above the level of the cistern. 
The feed is taken from about an inch from the bottom of a tank which means debris settles below the feed.
There is an inline filter which can be cleaned if needed.
When I did the conversion, I switched the cistern from a high pressure mains valve to a low pressure valve (larger hole on the valve so cistern would fill quicker under low pressure).

After 3 years, I reckon it has saved a mass of water.


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## begreen (May 23, 2011)

Interesting, we have some large new buildings that are set up this way in Seattle. How well do the toilet valves work under low pressure? How many stories is the house?  Do you have any pictures of the setup.


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## woodchip (May 23, 2011)

Just nipped out to take these piccies for you!

First one is of the 2 tanks, one takes the water from the roof, and feeds into the second one, which has the feed indoors.
The outlet at the bottom of the larger tank can be used for flushing any leaves and debris out of the tank if needed.

Second picture shows the feed and the inline filter to keep the water clean

The last picture shows the indoor bit of plumbing to get the water into the cistern. 
The cistern takes about 2 minutes to fill up, which isn't too bad. 
The rainwater is slightly acidic compared to our very hard tapwater, so no buildup of calcium anywhere, an added bonus.


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## woodchip (May 23, 2011)

Sorry the pictures have only appeared as links, not sure why........


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## begreen (May 23, 2011)

Cool, they show up on photobucket ok. You need to use the "Post Reply" button to see the picture posting options. It is not there with the Fast Reply. Or you can Edit a previous posting and that also will expose the picture options.   https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/27_2/

The setup looks pretty simple, is there an overflow for when you get a deluge? Our gutters are at the first floor ceiling level, so the only way for this to work for us via gravity feed would be to pump it up to a 2nd floor holding tank or put a toilet in the crawlspace.


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## woodchip (May 23, 2011)

When we anticipate heavy rain, we can pipe water away from the house to a couple of ponds, we also have a couple of tanks down the garden which we can pipe water to for use on the plants. 
I've always found Roman aqueducts interesting, they perfected moving water great distances without any power at all!

Pictures now sorted, many thanks!


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## begreen (May 23, 2011)

Indeed. And they had flush toilets, but then again, so did Minoan royalty. Have you read the novel Pompeii by Robert Harris? This is an historical fiction based on the life of a Roman water system engineer during the eruption of Vesuvius. It's a fascinating story that has lots of info about how they distributed water and what happens when the earth starts shaking up the system.


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## woodchip (May 23, 2011)

Must get that from the library for a read. 
Good book for a rainy day  ;-)


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## begreen (May 23, 2011)

He's a good writer. I couldn't put the book down.


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## Bad Wolf (May 23, 2011)

I want to go just far enough off the grid to not have to pay any utilities. I have no illusion's that I will be self sustaining, 
I like what this guy has done. Its grid tie only, but I think there are inverters that let you grid tie and have battery if you ever want to cut the cord completely or for emergencies. 
I was able to take a tour of his house last week. He has brought a lot of technologies together.  The result is that his heating demand is low enough that a good portion is done through solar. What the solar can't do he makes up with a geothermal heat-pump. The ultimate is that he makes enough electricity to run the heat pump and everything else.

http://www.cesct.com/index.php/engineering-case-studies/index


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## begreen (May 23, 2011)

Our home will be grid-tied in a couple weeks. We'll not be independent, but putting money in the bank during our long photo-period summers. 

I considered battery backup, but it's expensive, maintenance intensive and the batteries have a very finite lifespan of 5-7 years. However, if building from scratch, you can do a lot to reduce heating, lighting and water loads by designing wisely and choosing appliances and systems carefully.


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## peakbagger (May 24, 2011)

Xantrex has just come out with a high voltage charge controller, I havent seen any details but it may be the answer to grid tie folks who eventually want to switch to battery backup. Most standalone systesm are usually 24 to 48 volts which means large diameter wiring and switchgear rated for high amps. Due to the costs of wire and the voltage drop through the wires, the location of the panels is usually close to the battery bank  so pole mouted arrays arent used as often. Grid Tie systems usually use higher voltage strings in the 300 to 400 volt range, the wires and swtiches are a lot smaller and the voltage drop though the lines is a lot lower so panels can be mounted remotely which potentially allows a better site for the panels. Previously, once a system was wired for grid tie, it would be an expensive proposition to rewire for standalone unless the system was designed for this to begin with.   

I suspect that there would be a demand for a system with a small battery bank that could be switched from Gird tie to standalone in an emergency. Outback make a commercial system but it is limited to 48 volts which still requires big wires and most likely would require reworking a system that was designed as a grid tie only system. The trade off with a high voltage battery bank is that all the batteries are in series, so if one goes out the whole string may be useless.


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## jebatty (May 24, 2011)

A bucket of water (1-3 gallons) dumped into the toilet bowl will flush a toilet just fine. No need to pipe water to a 2nd floor, etc. We live  close to a lake, have a gravity feed septic system, and in an emergency can get all the water needed for toilets from the lake. Also a a generator that powers the well pump, with a large pressure tank, for potable water needs, and wood stove which is 24/7 during heating season to heat the house. We also maintain ordinarily a good stock of canned and dried foods. Not "off the grid," but during a pretty long emergency we will be OK. The big issue is long term food supply.


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## dvellone (May 24, 2011)

I have a hard time imagining the advantages of a grid-tied system unless you're in a predominantly sunny part of the country where you might have the chance of a payback (or the State and Federal incentives offer a bulk of the expense in rebates.) On average, electric rates in the USA are relatively inexpensive, and with the use of energy efficient appliances, lighting, and generally the same low-consumptive approach you would take in an off-grid system use and expense would be low.  Compare that to the initial expense of the grid-tied system and replacement expense over the life of the system, and unless you're really pumping juice back into the grid at a decent payback rate which would reduce the monthly rate you'll continue to pay for electric use (and "other fees") it seems like your expense would be high in the long run.

I'm sure that factors like proximity to the grid and local buy back rates and policies would make a difference. We would have paid more to run a grid line in here than to set up our system, and the buy back rates are pretty low (so is the amount of sunny days!) But we've spent 19k on our system and that seems like a healthy amount to invest for monthly electric bills. That amount is also initial expense and doesn't project what we may spend in replacing an inverter, charge controller, or panels.


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## Adios Pantalones (May 24, 2011)

In some places you can bank energy in the grid on sunny days and draw out later like a battery system, and only use actual batteries for backup situations.  That reduces battery cost, space, etc.


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## dvellone (May 24, 2011)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> In some places you can bank energy in the grid on sunny days and draw out later like a battery system, and only use actual batteries for backup situations.  That reduces battery cost, space, etc.



Is that an equal exchange? Whatever you put into the grid you can effectively draw out with no expense other than your line fees etc.?


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## Slow1 (May 24, 2011)

peakbagger said:
			
		

> I suspect that there would be a demand for a system with a small battery bank that could be switched from Gird tie to standalone in an emergency. Outback make a commercial system but it is limited to 48 volts which still requires big wires and most likely would require reworking a system that was designed as a grid tie only system. The trade off with a high voltage battery bank is that all the batteries are in series, so if one goes out the whole string may be useless.



I've been reading up a bit on solar  - both from a grid-tied and as a backup solution.  There is a forum full of folks as 'dedicated' to the craft as the folks here are to burning wood.

What I've picked up there is that trying to build a grid-tie system with backup batteries makes about as much sense as keeping a stand of oak trees growing near your house to burn in an emergency in case you run out of wood next winter.  Basically it comes down to economics.  YES you CAN do it, but the cost of the batteries and maintenance on them is so high that you are far better simply getting a small generator to supply power for the few times you need it.

IF you do not have a power grid available, then you have to store your solar power and it may be justified to do the whole battery storage routine. In this case you will need to seriously manage/minimize your power budget or have a lot of money available to spend.  Your cost/KWh over the life of the system will end up being on the order of 50c or more though which is higher than grid costs - but may be far better than hauling in fuel for a generator in a remote location not served by utilities.

However if you can do grid-tie, then it is best to treat the grid as your "cheap battery" and push surplus power there when you don't need it, draw it back when you need it.  You avoid all sorts of losses and costs this way.

Another way to think of it is this:  Would you consider buying/building a whole house battery backup system now that fed off the grid to charge?  If not, then why would you consider building one that charges off the solar array?


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## Adios Pantalones (May 24, 2011)

dvellone said:
			
		

> Adios Pantalones said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



depends on where you are.  the one I heard about- you could bank it up at 1:1 for some # of months.  If unused after that they buy it at some rate (probably not what they sell at).  This would be a great deal. The line fees etc are still the killah.


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## Bad Wolf (May 24, 2011)

I'm not very up on solar power systems yet.
My understanding is that for a grid tie system it won't work at all when the power goes out even though the sun is shining. For the battery/grid tie system if you had a very small battery bank could you at least use the sun during the day? That way you would only have to use the generator at night. 
I agree that using the grid as your battery makes more sense and is more efficient, I just like having options


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## dvellone (May 24, 2011)

I have to say that the whole issue of battery back-up is a lot less foreboding than one might think. If the house is set up to be very efficient (which really should be a large part of any discussion regarding solar, wind or water power and any level of energy independence) the demand on the batteries is greatly reduced, and if sized properly the bank will meet needs and last many years. We're in Upstate NY where a solar array in the front yard can sometimes seem ridiculously optimistic, yet we run the whole house off the system easily relying much on the batteries. Our batteries are over six years in use and show little or no sign of reduction in their capabilities. Every 60 days I take about 20 minutes to water them and, quite importantly, we never let them get below a 60% charge. I suspect that many of the horror stories regarding batteries come from the same folks that never change the oil in their cars. I've heard plenty of stories of folks letting their batteries go nearly dry which pretty much means a complete bank replacement or an extremely small storage capacity. My installer at the time of my installation had been using the same battery bank for over 20 years. 

That said, it would be hard not to tie to the grid if I could get a line in here for the cost of a battery bank and be able to take out what I put in for a reasonable fee. I don't NY is there yet.


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## dvellone (May 24, 2011)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> dvellone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That would be a great deal -hard to not take. If the line fees add up to the lifetime of a battery bank I'd maybe jump at it. One of the benefits of the bank though is that while we're in an area of frequent power outages, we've never had one in our 6+ years on the bank. A small advantage, but one you can appreciate when your neighbors are without electricity and you're humming along.


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## woodchip (May 24, 2011)

dvellone said:
			
		

> If the house is set up to be very efficient (which really should be a large part of any discussion regarding solar, wind or water power and any level of energy independence) the demand on the batteries is greatly reduced.



+1

That goes for any form of heating. 
You need a smaller area of woodland to heat an energy efficient house than one with loads of heat leaking out. 
The time you save processing wood is time you can use growing your own fruit and veg, which helps the food area if you are going off grid in all possible directions. 
It used to be reckoned here that an acre of land would be enough to feed a family of four for a year. 
Personally, I'm a bit sceptical about it as a couple of years ago I did an experiment whereby I grew a square yard of wheat and was barely able to make a loaf of bread in the Autumn. 
I went back on the grid for bread after that  ;-)


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## dvellone (May 24, 2011)

woodchip said:
			
		

> It used to be reckoned here that an acre of land would be enough to feed a family of four for a year.
> Personally, I'm a bit sceptical about it as a couple of years ago I did an experiment whereby I grew a square yard of wheat and was barely able to make a loaf of bread in the Autumn.
> I went back on the grid for bread after that  ;-)



We might be able to make it based on that formula if we could eat snow! Got to hone my farming skills.


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## begreen (May 25, 2011)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> In some places you can bank energy in the grid on sunny days and draw out later like a battery system, and only use actual batteries for backup situations.  That reduces battery cost, space, etc.



That is correct. We have some very sunny late summers and fall. It also depends on the structure of the incentives. Our electricity costs 10-11 cents/kwh. For our WA state made system we will be getting 54 cents/kwh + 10 cents/kwh net metering for a total of 64 cents/kwh. There are some other incentives including no sales tax + 30% fed tax credit. Bottom line shows we should come in at roughly 8%/yr ROI which has the system paying for itself in 11 yrs. That is better than any guaranteed investment we could find. And the value of our property has increased with panels that should be doing quite well for several decades.


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