# Can wood be "over" seasoned?



## Steve M (Oct 17, 2010)

With a trend here toward seasoned wood that seems to border on obsessive and lots of recent posts about overfired stoves, I wonder if wood can be "over" seasoned?

Granted, some of the over-fires are within normal burning temps. but still well over what the user wanted to see. 

Yes, I can here the cursing as I type from those who have busted there ass to get two or three years ahead, but I wonder if this is nescassary or even beneficial


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## rdust (Oct 17, 2010)

I don't think so for my area.  I don't see wood getting much below 15% m/c in this area under natural drying conditions.

The three years ahead doesn't always have to do with seasoning time.  Oak is the only one you really hear people banging the three year drum on.  It has to do with having wood on hand should something come up and you can't cut or put up wood for a year or more.  This way you can still keep your family warm and winter heating costs down even if your health/life hit a tough spot.


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## North of 60 (Oct 17, 2010)

Steve M said:
			
		

> With a trend here toward seasoned wood that seems to border on obsessive and lots of recent posts about overfired stoves, I wonder if wood can be "over" seasoned?
> 
> Granted, some of the over-fires are within normal burning temps. but still well over what the user wanted to see.
> 
> Yes, I can here the cursing as I type from those who have busted there ass to get two or three years ahead, but I wonder if this is necessary or even beneficial



Have you tried both types yet? When you do, you will know the answer and join the obsessive trend here.
In the mean time put some semi refined crap fuel in your car and tell us how she goes. Power = heat and mileage = burn time. ;-) 
Cheers


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## weatherguy (Oct 17, 2010)

It will only get so dry unless you put it in a kiln, it can, however rot. I bought a cord from a guy last year and half the stuff was punked. I burned it but I didnt get too long of a burn from it. Never called him again for wood.


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## branchburner (Oct 17, 2010)

Welcome to the great debate. My short answer: no. That is assuming normal size (=medium/large) splits of cordwood stored outside, under cover, in a moderate (not arid) climate. That should bring the wood under 20% MC, but generally not under 15%.

Wood that is split very small is a different story, because there is a greater exposure of surface area that leads to greater (=excessive) outgassing in the firebox. I think wood over 20% can be split smaller, but wood under 15% (such as lumber and certain softwoods) should be in very large hunks (except when used as kindling), and perhaps not used in certain stoves or under certain conditions.

I think rather than wood being over-seasoned, perhaps certain stoves are being over-designed; some stoves are designed with a great emphasis on clean combustion. Yes, you want that, but not at the expense of overfiring. I would like to be able to adjust the secondary air on my stove rather than burn wood with more moisture as a way to control the fire, or rely on a pipe damper that I'm not supposed to need (and therefore don't have). 

But when you look back at the posts, most are about ALMOST overfired stoves. With 500-650 as cruising temps, I think 700-750F is a very normal high end for most stoves, even though it makes me nervous. I've seen 800F when I forgot to close the bypass - a bummer, but no harm done. 900F - that's a problem, and I can't see that occurring because my wood is 17 months dry instead of only 11 months dry. It's either me, or it's the stove - it's not the wood. But if you are getting too much smoke and not getting enough heat, chances are good it's the wood.


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## Steve M (Oct 17, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> Steve M said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yelp. Burning for 30+ years now. Have used wood so green that I had to stop burning after a few days  to clean the creoso buildup in the stove and pipe and wood so dry it seemed to suck air through the metal of the stove. Me thinks that stoves are built to burn the in-between, AKA semi refined crap fuel.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

weatherguy said:
			
		

> It will only get so dry unless you put it in a kiln, it can, however rot. I bought a cord from a guy last year and half the stuff was punked. I burned it but I didnt get too long of a burn from it. Never called him again for wood.



This year I had cherry dry to about 12% in 9 months because of the hot, dry, windy weather.  That's too dry, close to kiln-dried.  Thankfully, Mother Nature will pump some moisture back into it with the shorter days and higher humidity.  Then I'll bring it back into the house and it will probably get too dry again, but I can deal with that.

Folks in the desert (and not just the Mohave, we have lots of high desert in this country) can see wood go down to less than 6% MC.  Drier than kiln-dried.  Is this wood causing stoves to overfire?  No.  Dry wood doesn't overfire stoves, people do.  There are ways to control most fires well before they get out of control, but even the best and most experienced burners screw up at times.  Given the choice, I would rather my wood be too dry than too wet.  I can easily regulate my burn by adding some less seasoned wood to the over-dry stuff.  The other way around is much harder, is a major PITA, and may be impossible if the wood is wet enough.  The driest wood you'll normally see is only a few percentage points below the ideal, but the wettest wood can be several times the ideal moisture content.  Think about that when you decide on which side you want to err.

Yes, rot is an ever present problem, but if you get your wood below 25% and then get it under cover so it doesn't get wet, it will never rot and will keep literally forever.  Ash, maple, poplar and others are extremely rot-prone.  I've replaced ash gunwales on canoes where they had gotten like balsa wood.  Sapwood in general is never very rot-resistant.  Red oak and cherry sapwood will rot so bad they turn to powder when dry.  If you are keeping these woods for more than a year, you really need to keep the rain off them.  Locust, hedge and mulberry will last nearly forever in the same conditions and never need to be covered.


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## North of 60 (Oct 17, 2010)

Steve M said:
			
		

> north of 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think new EPA stoves require a person paying attention to detail.  Crap fuel is a waste of btus.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

Steve M said:
			
		

> Burning for 30+ years now. Have used wood so green that I had to stop burning after a few days  to clean the creoso buildup in the stove and pipe and wood so dry it seemed to suck air through the metal of the stove. Me thinks that stoves are built to burn the in-between, AKA semi refined crap fuel.



Steve, me thinks I'm gonna have to side with you on this one.  A stove ain't a race car.  They are designed to burn the in-between stuff, they are tested using the in-between stuff, and I personally like to use the in-between stuff with every load.  20-25% is the Goldilocks wood.  Not too wet, not too dry.... just right.  If I ain't got that, I'll mix what I got to get it close as I can and then live with the results.  

Intuitively, though.  I'm not about to stick a fork in every friggin' split to see if it's done.  If I slam a hand cart full of hardwood against my basement wall and it sounds like a strike at the bowling alley, it's gonna go in the stove tonight.  To tell the truth, I spend way more time thinking about managing my draft than I do thinking about getting my wood down to some magical level.


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## soupy1957 (Oct 17, 2010)

I just LOVE to sit there and watch my SUPER dry wood go pssssssst, right up the chimney in seconds!! (not)

-Soupy1957


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## allhandsworking (Oct 17, 2010)

I find that useing some small splits with some medium splits you get The perfect combo without paying to much attention to mc!  Although it's fun loving,and caring for stacks like it's a vineyard or a cigar!


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## Jay G (Oct 17, 2010)

> I think new EPA stoves require a person paying attention to detail.  Crap fuel is a waste of btus.


  That may be and be that as it may, but it is also something I pick up from the road side for nothing and I lack the ability to cut and prep select wood. So by burning "crap wood" I don't wind up depleting my fixed income by .01cent and not a dollar burnt up the chimney while saving $$ off my electric bill. I can spare the lost btu. Bring on the 'road kill wood!' I_IIII_- _lllll_ike it! :coolsmirk:


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## Pine Knot (Oct 17, 2010)

I too have been burning wood for more than thirty years, and I agree with Steve M. A few sticks of "less than fully seasoned" wood mixed in with dry on those nights when the draft is high and as someone said here "sucking air through steel" Might let you sleep a little better.


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## oldspark (Oct 17, 2010)

My answer is NO, you have to know what you are doing when you burn wood and some of the posts lately lead me to believe that some people are on a learning curve, I too have been burning wood for 30 years and I never burn green wood, I do not understand why you would do that if you have choices. As Jake posted the other day become one with your stove and become a Jedi Woodburner.


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 17, 2010)

Along with some talk about wood in this post there is still a bit of baloney mixed in. (I say that tongue in cheek.)

Here is some wood that perhaps some say is over-seasoned.







This wood was cut, split and stacked in the winter of 2003-2004. We still have about a cord of it left. It is a mixture of ash, cherry, elm and soft maple. Should I throw it out (because it is too seasoned) or should I burn it? Or, as some have stated, maybe I should cut some green wood and mix that in?


Question:  If this wood is too dry, why do I burn less of it (50% less) than I used to in the old stove? After all, some say these new stoves are meant to burn the in-between stuff (which I do not believe). Do I burn this wood and whoosh, right up the chimney it goes? Answer = no.

Maybe I'm doing this all wrong because we have night temperatures around 30-35 and all we put in are 3 small splits. We get up in the morning and the house is till warm. If it is too chilly outside we will throw on a couple more splits.....and we do not have to relight the stove either. 

So you folks can burn less than ideal fuel if you want as that is your choice. You can also buy less than ideal fuel for your car, chainsaws, atvs, boats, trucks, etc., etc. I simply prefer to burn the better fuel and stay away from the problems associated with burning poor fuel. 

I also find it interesting that many folks have burned wood that had seasoned 20 years and had no problems with it. I've burned wood 10 years old or older with no problems.


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## tickbitty (Oct 17, 2010)

I have about a half cord of over-seasoned wood, we call it "rotten."
We're still going to burn any of it that has good density, but it makes a mess.


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## savageactor7 (Oct 17, 2010)

Beautiful^ wood there Savage.

imo here in cny there's no such thing as 'over seasoned wood' and we've been 24/7 burners since the bi-centennial. As far as over firing a stove like the OP has suggested that comes with operator experience. After awhile you'll be able to mentally gauge how splits will burn by how they feel and how easily they catch. Then you'll adjust the controls accordingly. 

I suppose loading a stove up to capacity with seasoned wood and letting it go wide open throttle could over fire a stove. Once it catches you have to be around/awake to throttle it down properly.


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## weatherguy (Oct 17, 2010)

> Yes, rot is an ever present problem, but if you get your wood below 25% and then get it under cover so it doesn’t get wet, it will never rot and will keep literally forever.  Ash, maple, poplar and others are extremely rot-prone.  I’ve replaced ash gunwales on canoes where they had gotten like balsa wood.  Sapwood in general is never very rot-resistant.  Red oak and cherry sapwood will rot so bad they turn to powder when dry.  If you are keeping these woods for more than a year, you really need to keep the rain off them.  Locust, hedge and mulberry will last nearly forever in the same conditions and never need to be covered.



When I buy green I leave it uncovered for a year then I cover the top til Im ready to burn it, I also keep it off the ground, I built some wood racks. Im thinking of installing roofs on the racks maybe using metal roofing you get at home depot, it seems to me thats will alllow for better air flow around the stacked wood.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

It's not a matter of burning "green" wood, it's a matter of burning what you have as intelligently as possible.  No one is advocating burning wet wood.  Tossing a few splits of your least seasoned wood in with your driest stuff is not burning wet, it is simply helping to regulate the burn.  It's not all black or white, this is not a Yankees vs. Red Sox kind of issue.

To us, the wood goes in the stove, gets hot, starts to smoke, goes to flame, then disappears after several hours.  The stove gets very hot during this process.  To the wood, some pretty spectacular organic chemistry is occurring.  

Wood is not a fuel like oil or gas or ethanol.  It won't burn at all in its native form.  It's made primarily of hemi-celluloses and lignin, and these are solids.  Like most fuels, they need to be converted into gaseous form in order to burn.  A liquid like alcohol will just evaporate into its most burnable form.  Candles will melt into liquid and then evaporate into the gaseous form.  Wood needs to be converted into entirely new compounds from what they are originally.  There are so many of them being made that nobody knows what all of them are.  A list of the known compounds would probably exceed the 6000 character limit for posts.  POOK will come in and ask me to name them all.  I'll quote a few.  



> *Most of the following information is from F. L. Browne
> "Theories of the Combustion of Wood and its Control"
> Report No.Zte6, Forest Products Laboratory' Madison'
> Wisconsin (1963).
> ...



I'm no organic chemist, I barely passed.  But it's pretty obvious that "smoke" is damn complicated stuff.  Water enters into the formation of many of these compounds.  Some of them, like formic and acetic acids, cresol, creosol and guaiacol make up a lot of that other complex substance we love to hate - creosote.  At high enough temperatures, the water in your wood temporarily forms new compounds from these substances and those are burned in the fire.  At low temperatures, the water in your wood condenses along with them and gets deposited on your flue walls as creosote.

Temperature is the key, not a few molecules of water more or less in the wood.  Given the correct temperature and enough air, your fire will burn most of these to completion regardless of whether there is 0% water in your wood or if there is 30%.  It will burn these in the most controlled fashion when you wood is in the ideal moisture band of 20-25%, give or take a few, and depending on what kind of system you are burning in.  If you make a lot of smoke and count on your secondary air to burn it off, you will need a lot of it, and the more air in a given time, the hotter your fire will get.  If the wood is too dry and you put it on a hot fire, it will outgas rapidly, and there are only two choices:  let it go up the stack unburned or give it more air.  One leads to lost fuel and dangerous chimney deposits, the other leads to dangerous overfire situations.  Cat or non-cat don't matter.  You need to combine all that smoke with oxygen, and that creates a lot of heat.  Too much heat in many cases.

And don't go telling me about that 1/4 teaspoon of soot you got out of your flue after 5 years of burning "clean".  With a 16' insulated chimney and sufficient flue temps, all of the exhaust will leave the top of the stack before it gets cool enough to condense on the walls.  A clean flue is absolutely not an indication of an efficient burn.  Even the absence of smoke is no indication of complete combustion.  Smoke that we see is mostly tar droplets.  That is what the EPA cares about, and that is what the measure with filters when stoves are tested.  There are many invisible fuel gases that will go right through a test filter that make it up and out the top of the stack undetected.  That's why they have all those sensors in those lab stove exhaust systems, they are attempting to determine burn efficiency using the "stack-loss" method.

I almost never see smoke coming from my chimney with wood at any MC, but I don't kid myself that my stove can burn as efficiently as a good modern stove can.  I know I'm losing some of those invisible gases up the flue, and I do get some creosote way up high in my 25' tall masonry flue, but I haven't yet convinced myself I'm losing the $3000 that a new stove and liner will set me back.  Saving two cord a year for ten years and I'm at the break even point.  I don't even know if I'll be here in ten years, in this place, or even on the planet.  Part of the "old timer" resistance is simple practicality, and this old timer is having a bad day today listening to "the word" as handed down by first and second year burners spouting off the party line instead of doing it themselves for as long as I have.


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## oldspark (Oct 17, 2010)

I got knocked a little for this but I'm going to say it again, not watching flue temps is not very bright, if I waited for the stove top to get to 600 to 700 degrees before I reduce the primary air I am going to have a over cooked flue temp and it will be harder to put the brakes on at this point espically with the new epa stoves. BK- these whipper snappers had me wound up a couple of weeks ago. :lol:


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## begreen (Oct 17, 2010)

For frame of reference, here's a list of what can be found in cigarette smoke:
    *  Acetanisole,
    * Acetic Acid,
    * Acetoin,
    * Acetophenone,
    * 6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane,
    * 2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine,
    * 2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran,
    * Acetylpyrazine,
    * 2-Acetylpyridine,
    * 3-Acetylpyridine,
    * 2-Acetylthiazole,
    * Aconitic Acid,
    * dl-Alanine,
    * Oleoresin,
    * And Oil,
    * Allyl Hexanoate,
    * Allyl Ionone,
    * Almond Bitter Oil,
    * Ambergris Tincture,
    * Ammonia,

    * Ammonium Bicarbonate,
    * Ammonium Hydroxide,
    * Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic,
    * Ammonium Sulfide,
    * Amyl Alcohol,
    * Amyl Butyrate,
    * Amyl Formate,
    * Amyl Octanoate,
    * alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde,
    * Amyris Oil,
    * trans-Anethole,
    * Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil,
    * Anise,
    * Anise Star, Extract and Oils,
    * Anisyl Acetate,
    * Anisyl Alcohol,
    * Anisyl Formate,
    * Anisyl Phenylacetate,
    * Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins,
    * Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate,
    * 1-Arginine,
    * Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil,
    * Ascorbic Acid,
    * 1-Asparagine Monohydrate,
    * 1-Aspartic Acid,
    * Balsam Peru and Oil,
    * Basil Oil,
    * Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil,
    * Beeswax White,
    * Beet Juice Concentrate,
    * Benzaldehyde,
    * Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal,
    * Benzoic Acid, Benzoin,
    * Benzoin Resin,
    * Benzophenone,
    * Benzyl Alcohol,
    * Benzyl Benzoate,
    * Benzyl Butyrate,
    * Benzyl Cinnamate,
    * Benzyl Propionate,
    * Benzyl Salicylate,
    * Bergamot Oil,
    * Bisabolene,
    * Black Currant Buds Absolute,
    * Borneol,
    * Bornyl Acetate,
    * Buchu Leaf Oil,
    * 1,3-Butanediol,
    * 2,3-Butanedione,
    * 1-Butanol,
    * 2-Butanone,
    * 4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One,
    * Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil,
    * Butyl Acetate,
    * Butyl Butyrate,
    * Butyl Butyryl Lactate,
    * Butyl Isovalerate,
    * Butyl Phenylacetate,
    * Butyl Undecylenate,
    * 3-Butylidenephthalide,
    * Butyric Acid,
    * Cadinene,
    * Caffeine,
    * Calcium Carbonate,
    * Camphene,
    * Cananga Oil,
    * Capsicum Oleoresin,
    * Caramel Color,
    * Caraway Oil,
    * Carbon Dioxide,
    * Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder,
    * Carob Bean and Extract,
    * beta-Carotene,
    * Carrot Oil,
    * Carvacrol,
    * 4-Carvomenthenol,
    * 1-Carvone,
    * beta-Caryophyllene,
    * beta-Caryophyllene Oxide,
    * Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract,
    * Cassia Bark Oil,
    * Cassie Absolute and Oil,
    * Castoreum Extract, Tincture and Absolute,
    * Cedar Leaf Oil,
    * Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana,
    * Cedrol,
    * Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin,
    * Cellulose Fiber,
    * Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract,
    * Chicory Extract,
    * Chocolate,
    * Cinnamaldehyde,
    * Cinnamic Acid,
    * Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract,
    * Cinnamyl Acetate,
    * Cinnamyl Alcohol,
    * Cinnamyl Cinnamate,
    * Cinnamyl Isovalerate,
    * Cinnamyl Propionate,
    * Citral,
    * Citric Acid,
    * Citronella Oil,
    * dl-Citronellol,
    * Citronellyl Butyrate,
    * Citronellyl Isobutyrate,
    * Civet Absolute,
    * Clary Oil,
    * Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract,
    * Cocoa,
    * Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder,
    * Coconut Oil,
    * Coffee,
    * Cognac White and Green Oil,
    * Copaiba Oil,
    * Coriander Extract and Oil,
    * Corn Oil,
    * Corn Silk,
    * Costus Root Oil,
    * Cubeb Oil,
    * Cuminaldehyde,
    * para-Cymene,
    * 1-Cysteine,
    * Dandelion Root Solid Extract,
    * Davana Oil,
    * 2-trans, 4-trans-Decadienal,
    * delta-Decalactone,
    * gamma-Decalactone,
    * Decanal,
    * Decanoic Acid,
    * 1-Decanol,
    * 2-Decenal,
    * Dehydromenthofurolactone,
    * Diethyl Malonate,
    * Diethyl Sebacate,
    * 2,3-Diethylpyrazine,
    * Dihydro Anethole,
    * 5,7-Dihydro-2-Methylthieno(3,4-D) Pyrimidine,
    * Dill Seed Oil and Extract,
    * meta-Dimethoxybenzene,
    * para-Dimethoxybenzene,
    * 2,6-Dimethoxyphenol,
    * Dimethyl Succinate,
    * 3,4-Dimethyl-1,2-Cyclopentanedione,
    * 3,5- Dimethyl-1,2-Cyclopentanedione,
    * 3,7-Dimethyl-1,3,6-Octatriene,
    * 4,5-Dimethyl-3-Hydroxy-2,5-Dihydrofuran-2-One,
    * 6,10-Dimethyl-5,9-Undecadien-2-One,
    * 3,7-Dimethyl-6-Octenoic Acid,
    * 2,4-Dimethylacetophenone,
    * alpha,para-Dimethylbenzyl Alcohol,
    * alpha,alpha-Dimethylphenethyl Acetate,
    * alpha,alpha Dimethylphenethyl Butyrate,
    * 2,3-Dimethylpyrazine,
    * 2,5-Dimethylpyrazine,
    * 2,6-Dimethylpyrazine,
    * Dimethyltetrahydrobenzofuranone,
    * delta-Dodecalactone,
    * gamma-Dodecalactone,
    * para-Ethoxybenzaldehyde,
    * Ethyl 10-Undecenoate,
    * Ethyl 2-Methylbutyrate,
    * Ethyl Acetate,
    * Ethyl Acetoacetate,
    * Ethyl Alcohol,
    * Ethyl Benzoate,
    * Ethyl Butyrate,
    * Ethyl Cinnamate,
    * Ethyl Decanoate,
    * Ethyl Fenchol,
    * Ethyl Furoate,
    * Ethyl Heptanoate,
    * Ethyl Hexanoate,
    * Ethyl Isovalerate,
    * Ethyl Lactate,
    * Ethyl Laurate,
    * Ethyl Levulinate,
    * Ethyl Maltol,
    * Ethyl Methyl Phenylglycidate,
    * Ethyl Myristate,
    * Ethyl Nonanoate,
    * Ethyl Octadecanoate,
    * Ethyl Octanoate,
    * Ethyl Oleate,
    * Ethyl Palmitate,
    * Ethyl Phenylacetate,
    * Ethyl Propionate,
    * Ethyl Salicylate,
    * Ethyl trans-2-Butenoate,
    * Ethyl Valerate,
    * Ethyl Vanillin,
    * 2-Ethyl (or Methyl)-(3,5 and 6)-Methoxypyrazine,
    * 2-Ethyl-1-Hexanol, 3-Ethyl -2 -Hydroxy-2-Cyclopenten-1-One,
    * 2-Ethyl-3, (5 or 6)-Dimethylpyrazine,
    * 5-Ethyl-3-Hydroxy-4-Methyl-2(5H)-Furanone,
    * 2-Ethyl-3-Methylpyrazine,
    * 4-Ethylbenzaldehyde,
    * 4-Ethylguaiacol,
    * para-Ethylphenol,
    * 3-Ethylpyridine,
    * Eucalyptol,
    * Farnesol,
    * D-Fenchone,
    * Fennel Sweet Oil,
    * Fenugreek, Extract, Resin, and Absolute,
    * Fig Juice Concentrate,
    * Food Starch Modified,
    * Furfuryl Mercaptan,
    * 4-(2-Furyl)-3-Buten-2-One,
    * Galbanum Oil,
    * Genet Absolute,
    * Gentian Root Extract,
    * Geraniol,
    * Geranyl Acetate,
    * Geranyl Butyrate,
    * Geranyl Formate,
    * Geranyl Isovalerate,
    * Geranyl Phenylacetate,
    * 1-Glutamic Acid,
 This is as far as I can get with the word count. There are almost 600 possible chemicals in it.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> BK- these whipper snappers had me wound up a couple of weeks ago. :lol:



Ha, Ha!  I remember that.

Seems to be a three year thing that goes on.  


First year: New EPA stove, green wood, pulled hair, cold stove, smoky burn, clogged flue, desperate plea for help.

Second year: Same stove (or they got rid of it because they blamed it all on the stove), seasoned wood, more heat, overfire caused by using the same amount of air they needed with the wet wood, desperate plea for help.

Third year: Obnoxious know-it-all whippersnapper telling me I'm depleting the world's forests and polluting the air with wet (hardly) wood  and my smokeless "smoke dragon".


When I started out in woodworking 35 years ago, I was full of awe of others and full of doubt in my own abilities.  A real good friend at the time said, "Stick with it.  You got to put in ten years doing it, buddy.  After ten years doing something full-time, just about anybody knows what they are doing."  I don't think he was far off.

So, everybody that's been burning ten years or more gets a pass from me today. ;-P


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> For frame of reference, here's a list of what can be found in cigarette smoke:
> 
> * Almond Bitter Oil,
> * Ambergris Tincture,
> ...




Anise Star Extract?  Carob Bean?  Carrot Oil?  Chocolate?  Chamomile Flower Oil?  _Fig Juice Concentrate?_  In cigarette smoke?

Sounds like health food to me.  What brand?  I want some.  :lol: 

Seriously, I think inhaling wet oak smoke would be safer. ;-)


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## North of 60 (Oct 17, 2010)

smokey stoker said:
			
		

> > I think new EPA stoves require a person paying attention to detail. Crap fuel is a waste of btu.
> 
> 
> That may be and be that as it may, but it is also something I pick up from the road side for nothing and I lack the ability to cut and prep select wood. So by burning "crap wood" I don't wind up depleting my fixed income by .01cent and not a dollar burnt up the chimney while saving $$ off my electric bill. I can spare the lost btu. Bring on the 'road kill wood!' I_IIII_- _lllll_ike it! :coolsmirk:




I would not consider road side wood crappy fuel at all. I will pick up anything also, a days heat is a days free heat leaving my processed wood alone, BUT it will be dry before it goes in the stove. My manual for the stove targets 12 to 18% MC. So thats what I will feed it. So far so good.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> My manual for the stove targets 12 to 18% MC.



I just downloaded a PDF of the BK manual.  On what page would I find that?  Just curious and don't really want to read the whole thing.


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## North of 60 (Oct 17, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> north of 60 said:
> 
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> 
> ...



You got me looking, couldnt find it and then tried to pull the rusticles out of my head where I got it from. Its in the BK 101 Video.
http://blazeking.com/video1.html @ minute 5:12 it discuses MC. The video itself is good but didnt give the noncats a fair chance by comparing to old smoke dragon's. But the even heat output is spot on along with using dry low MC wood.
Give the vid a try. Its still useful to understand the black beasts.
Cheers


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## ohio woodburner (Oct 17, 2010)

i just had to look up what my VC manual says about what wood to use. I know Dennis will like this.  It states "avoid burning "green" wood that has not been properly seasoned or cordwood that is more than two years old". Well hell i'm almost four years ahead, guess i'll have to burn it in my outside fire ring.  :roll:


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 17, 2010)

ohio woodburner said:
			
		

> i just had to look up what my VC manual says about what wood to use. I know Dennis will like this.  It states "avoid burning "green" wood that has not been properly seasoned or cordwood that is more than two years old". Well hell i'm almost four years ahead, guess i'll have to burn it in my outside fire ring.  :roll:



Just goes to show that not all of us know what we are talking about.  :cheese:


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## StackedLumber (Oct 17, 2010)

Dennis you need to post some more pics of your wood what a thing of beauty . . . that's some serious wood porn


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 17, 2010)

StackedLumber said:
			
		

> Dennis you need to post some more pics of your wood what a thing of beauty . . . that's some serious wood porn



Here is some on the end of the porch (part of the carport).







We'll be burning some of this wood this winter:





Cuttings from last winter. Split and stacked in April. 





More of the same.





Just getting started with the splitting:





Yes, that is wood under that white stuff.





The log splitter is covered with a gray tarp in between the wood stacks.










Just about finished with the splitting:





Where the wood ultimately ends up.





Trying to figure out how to notch it before felling it.





Hauling some up to be cut up.





How'd this get in there?


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## StackedLumber (Oct 17, 2010)

good stuff dennis . . . of course you had to have one of your sitting at the vertical splitter . . .I'll leave that one for another argument in a different thread!    Please keep the pics of the white stuff to a minimum it's coming way too soon (yesterday it was 22 up here frost didn't leave till after 11!)


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## BrotherBart (Oct 17, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Anise Star Extract?  Carob Bean?  Carrot Oil?  Chocolate?  Chamomile Flower Oil?  _Fig Juice Concentrate?_  In cigarette smoke?
> 
> Sounds like health food to me.  What brand?  I want some.  :lol:
> 
> Seriously, I think inhaling wet oak smoke would be safer. ;-)



I smoke to get the benefits of the fig juice concentrate.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 17, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Wood is not a fuel like oil or gas or ethanol.  It won't burn at all in its native form.



Ya got about as much chance of lighting crude oil as you have lighting that big oak tree in the yard. In fact a better chance with the tree.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 17, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> Give the vid a try. Its still useful to understand the black beasts.



Good video, but a lot of hype.  Their stoves are _4 times more efficient than any non-catalytic wood stove?_  C'mon.  So a BK has 80% efficiency and a Jotul Oslo only has 20%?  Boy, that must piss off all the Oslo owners when they find out they are using 4X as much wood as they need to.  And since a new Jotul stove is supposed to be twice as efficient as my stove, the BKs must be 8X as efficient, so I can go from 6 cord/year to 3/4 of a cord and heat this place the same?  I'd be all over it, but I ain't buying it.

I also find it kinda humorous that they are recommending wood that is substantially drier than 95% of people are able to achieve.  I don't think that one summer in ten will get my wood down below 15% around here, this year was a fluke.  Thankfully, I don't have to depend on that or I'd never have dry enough wood.

Note that the video said not to burn wood larger than 8-10" in diameter.  They put some pretty honking big pieces in those stoves to get those extremely long burns.  With splits that large, you will have no problem burning extremely dry wood at all, even with the air wide open.  FWIW, I was burning cherry that was about 12-14% MC all morning long with no problem, even in my non-cat dragon.  Splits were large, however, about 6" in diameter.   When I left for the afternoon, I put on three nice pieces of very marginal hickory.  They went right to flame on the hot coal bed.  When my flue temps got to about 500º (less than 10 minutes), I shut the bypass damper, waited for the flue temps to stabilize, shut down the air most of the way, and went shopping.  They were still burning nicely when I got home.  In fact, the place got so warm and we had to open the front door for a while.

You are only gonna get "X" amount of BTUs out of a pound of wood not matter how dry it gets.  Heating this place all day during a cold snap in Jan with only 3-4 splits... it just ain't ever gonna happen.


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## btuser (Oct 17, 2010)

My stove has been burning hot lately, mostly because of the windy days but it got me thinking that maybe, just maybe, I had some really dry wood.  So I whipped out the ol' moisture meter and went to the stack, starting with 3yr old oak and ending up with the stuff I split last April.  April's maple came in at 20%, 3yr old oak read 6%.  wet ends of the splits reading at 37%.  I figure, whow, I'm set and maybe a little over-board.   Then for kicks I stuck the two prongs into a puddle and got a reading of 37%, which let me know I don't really know.


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## Lumber-Jack (Oct 18, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> My stove has been burning hot lately, mostly because of the windy days but it got me thinking that maybe, just maybe, I had some really dry wood.  So I whipped out the ol' moisture meter and went to the stack, starting with 3yr old oak and ending up with the stuff I split last April.  April's maple came in at 20%, 3yr old oak read 6%.  wet ends of the splits reading at 37%.  I figure, whow, I'm set and maybe a little over-board.   Then for kicks *I stuck the two prongs into a puddle and got a reading of 37%*, which let me know I don't really know.


btuser, you will get some serious cresote deposits in your flue if you try burning that puddle this winter. I say leave it in an open area for another year where it will get plenty of sun and wind,,, and try covering the top when it rains.


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## precaud (Oct 18, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Yes, rot is an ever present problem, but if you get your wood below 25% and then get it under cover so it doesn't get wet, it will never rot and will keep literally forever.



Agreed, and that's at the basis of my gathering and storage habits: dead/down and standing dead logs, stacked and covered, until needed. Some logs do have the onset of partial rotting on one side (usually the side that was facing down) but the rot stops when it's stored and kept dry.


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## North of 60 (Oct 18, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> north of 60 said:
> 
> 
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 I didnt make the damn video and I warned ya it was one sided. :coolsmirk:   SHEEEEES,  just showed ya where I got 12 to 18%MC from. 
Now go put 3-4 splits in your stove and come back and tell me how it did in January. :lol:


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## Hiram Maxim (Oct 18, 2010)

You guys can debate all ya want but I will follow the applied sciences and experience's of Backwoods Savage! ;-) 

 The dryer my wood gets the longer and better it burns......

 If your stove is over firing don't blame it on good fuel :wow:


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

This site would not be as much fun with out the debates!


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## NH_Wood (Oct 18, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> This site would not be as much fun with out the debates!


I disagree - it would be just as fun without debates ( ;-) - Cheers!


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## oldspark (Oct 18, 2010)

NH_Wood said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
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 Good one!


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## Wooddust (Oct 18, 2010)

Steve M said:
			
		

> With a trend here toward seasoned wood that seems to border on obsessive and lots of recent posts about overfired stoves, I wonder if wood can be "over" seasoned?
> 
> Granted, some of the over-fires are within normal burning temps. but still well over what the user wanted to see.
> 
> Yes, I can here the cursing as I type from those who have busted there ass to get two or three years ahead, but I wonder if this is nescassary or even beneficial



Well, I cant address more than where I live. In my experience as a woodworker and as a wood burner the answer is probably not. Wood will over time  under the conditions it is stored in achieve an equilibrium of internal moisture relative to the ambient conditions it is in. I have some walnut, air dried furniture grade in an un heated but dry location, stickered and stacked that after 4 years has never varied more than a % or 2.

On the other hand wood stove stacked and split firewood on my property will be sawdust in a few years with the termite activity we have. The exception would be hedge(osage orange), Black Locust, and Eastern red cedar all not a favorite munchie of termites. If I leave oak in a stack past 4 years it will have  major termite infestations. My goal is 2 years with a high percentage of my wood being hedge and the balance oak and hickory.

Just my observations


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## Battenkiller (Oct 18, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Ya got about as much chance of lighting crude oil as you have lighting that big oak tree in the yard. In fact a better chance with the tree.



I was speaking of fuel oil.  Leave it to a retired oil man to have crude thoughts when oil is mentioned. :lol: 

Ya know, a pile of creosote in the open won't burn even if you set a torch to it, but I don't want it in my chimney because things work differently there. ;-)


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## iceman (Oct 18, 2010)

*****  I talked to Pacific Energy today on another issue but we got on this subject*******
please dont shoot me!....  
this was taken from another thread i posted in


on another note, i know there is a thread about wood being to dry,  as was told to me from pe ...... YES wood can be to dry… The explanation was epa stoves always have air going in it. Its simple fuel to air ratio,  the drier the wood the more energy released.  If the wood is less than 10% it will release more energy, possibly causing extreme temps.  Since you can’t close the air off all the way thats whats  lead it to extreme temps. That may cause overfire..   They calculate mc at 15-20% for what they considered “best operating practices”  if wood is stacked and split outdoors for 1-2 yrs it should be 15-20% (this is from pe) its ok if its longer usually as 3 yrs it will be around 15% or so… But packing a firebox full of 10% or less wood could very well lead to a bad situation for the stove as temps may get to hot… 

this was the explanation from pe..


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## SolarAndWood (Oct 19, 2010)

iceman said:
			
		

> But packing a firebox full of 10% or less wood could very well lead to a bad situation for the stove as temps may get to hot…



I'd love to see a stick of firewood anywhere between Springfield and Syracuse under 10%.


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## oldspark (Oct 19, 2010)

Unless it is kiln dried you wont see firewood get much below 15% or so.


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## kabbott (Oct 19, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> iceman said:
> 
> 
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Me too... Last year I checked some exposed framing in my house and it was 13-14% on my elcheapo moisture meter... And it's been
seasoning for 145 years :coolgrin:


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## iceman (Oct 19, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> iceman said:
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Lol me too!  But this is what I was told ... I can only  think that people who store wood inside after its been outside will ever get wood down that low ...


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## firefighterjake (Oct 19, 2010)

Lots of words here . . . don't know if I'm a dumb whippersnapper or not . . . I do know I'm a dumb firefighter . . . and I do know I noticed a pretty big difference in burning wood that was seasoned over a year . . . I suspect there may be a point of diminishing return . . . but I also suspect I may never reach that point and will not worry about my wood not being at the optimal point for burning. 

As I said, I'm just a dumb firefighter . . . if I can get a fire going and keep my house warm . . . and keep myself and my wife safe . . . then all is good in the world.


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## iceman (Oct 19, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> Lots of words here . . . don't know if I'm a dumb whippersnapper or not . . . I do know I'm a dumb firefighter . . . and I do know I noticed a pretty big difference in burning wood that was seasoned over a year . . . I suspect there may be a point of diminishing return . . . but I also suspect I may never reach that point and will not worry about my wood not being at the optimal point for burning.
> 
> As I said, I'm just a dumb firefighter . . . if I can get a fire going and keep my house warm . . . and keep myself and my wife safe . . . then all is good in the world.




x2   
that about sums it up for me too!   
so were are both dumb but warm!
life is good when you are warm in the winter and have one less bill to pay with all those big holidays


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## Battenkiller (Oct 19, 2010)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> I'd love to see a stick of firewood anywhere between Springfield and Syracuse under 10%.



Damn close, though, _damn_ close. 

According to info from the U.S. Forest Service, wood stored outside under cover in Syracuse, NY will eventually reach an EMC of 12.2% MC... 12.4% in St. Louis, MO... 12.3% in Sioux City, IA...  12.3% in Flint, MI...  12.1% in Portland, NE... 11.4% in Concord, NH... 11.3% In Baltimore, MD... 11.1% in Worcester, MA...... _5.9 % in Burns, OR_.....

... and 11.4% MC just outside the blue line where I live... just about smack dab in the middle between Springfield, MA and Syracuse, NY.

Anybody live near any of the cities I just mentioned?


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## oldspark (Oct 19, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> SolarAndWood said:
> 
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> 
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 80 miles from sioux city, I do have some green ash that is at 12% or so, not getting carried away with that wood, it is nice for start up.


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## iceman (Oct 19, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> SolarAndWood said:
> 
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I am 45-60 min away from worc 
But their elevation is higher,  where I am is considered the valley


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 19, 2010)

About 50 miles from Flint but I'm not so sure about that 12.3% figure. I would perhaps buy 15% as being a bit closer but is only a SWAG. I've never checked ours except to see how it burns. Most of it burns quite well, thank you.


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## Battenkiller (Oct 19, 2010)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> About 50 miles from Flint but I'm not so sure about that 12.3% figure. I would perhaps buy 15% as being a bit closer but is only a SWAG. I've never checked ours except to see how it burns. Most of it burns quite well, thank you.



I should have mentioned that those were the lowest numbers for the season.  The RH in most temperate areas goes up and down throughout the year, and it is typically lowest in early spring (but out Fossil's way it's a lot lower in July).  Therefore, that is the time your wood will be at its lowest MC.  Dennis, for Flint, MI that comes out to be 12.3% MC in April but the wood will rise in moisture until it peaks at 15% MC for the Flint area in December, so you may very well be right on the money during the time you are actually burning it.  Seems you are a very good SWAGer.  ;-)


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## iceman (Oct 19, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
> 
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Is there a way to find out for my specific city?


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## Battenkiller (Oct 19, 2010)

iceman said:
			
		

> Is there a way to find out for my specific city?



Unfortunately, no.  I deliberately picked cites from the list that were close to locations of forum members that were debating the issue on this thread, but the list is far from complete.  However, I am fairly certain that there will be pretty good regional similarity.   To get more accurate, you would need to have the daily relative humidity averages for your exact location for several years running.  So go out now and buy that sling psychometer and start collecting data.  %-P 

Trust me, you're gonna be pretty close to that Worcester number.  And that number isn't as variable as Sav's area.  According to the Forest Service table, your wood will dry to about 11% given enough time and then cycle up to about 12% come burn season.  In short, once your particular wood is "overseasoned", it will stay that way forever.  Bring it inside for a few weeks and it may drop below 10%. 

Seriously, if you really want to know, contact your weather service to get the monthly relative humidity averages for your town.  From there you can figure out the MC based on any of the numerous EMC tables used throughout the wood industry.  I don't think it matters as long as things are working well enough for you now.  If you want to get obsessive and start tweaking things to try to achieve maximum efficiency, this info may help.  

Personally, I could give a shite exactly what MC my wood is at.  If it burns clean and throws out good heat, I'm more than satisfied.  I've made just about as many mistakes over the years as probably exist, and I think I even may have invented a few new ones just to be original.  At this point in my life, I can safely and easily burn wood over a range of moisture contents.  Some have tried to tell me my methods wouldn't work with a modern stove, but I'm pretty confident they would.  I do find it all very interesting on a theoretical level, however, and it's helpful to understand this stuff when troubleshooting a problem (mine or someone one else), but at the end of the day all I care about is a warm and happy wife and a safe night's sleep.  Burning a little more or less wood is of no real concern to me.


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## glhenry56 (Nov 26, 2010)

My hat is off to the regular posters here who really know their wood species, and have cutting, splitting, stacking and burning down to a science. Even though I have been burning wood since 1982, I'll never be on par with the moderators and "FHS" members. I really appreciate the shared knowledge and expertise.

That said, I have to add some commentary about "dry" vs. "wet" wood and how it burns, because from what I've read, it seems no one would ever consider attempting to burn anything greater than, say, 40% moisture content. Well, in the power plant where I work, we convert over 140 tons of biomass per hour into high pressure steam, and the moisture content of that biomass is often no better than 50%. It isn't always easy - we sometimes go through pretty radical swings in heat generation when the weather is wet - but it *does* burn. We can't be choosy about what we get for fuel. Much of it is softwood, it contains a lot of bark (and gravel), and it certainly isn't seasoned. Of course our combustion controls are more sophisticated than what you would find on a Tarm, because we have strict limits on opacity, SO2, and NOx.

So, I'll side with those who say "if it's wood, it'll burn". Low moisture seasoned hardwood is nice, but it is not necessary to keep warm. With greener stuff ,you just may have to spend more time cleaning out the flue...


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## North of 60 (Nov 26, 2010)

PickensPlanFan said:
			
		

> So, I'll side with those who say "if it's wood, it'll burn". Low moisture seasoned hardwood is nice, but it is not necessary to keep warm. With greener stuff ,you just may have to spend more time cleaning out the flue...



Thats sad, very sad. You have taken in no consideration for efficiency loss=lower heat output. Pretty much if you are buying hard wood and getting 50 to 60% efficiency out of it you might as well burn oil, gas or whatever. It will be cheaper/safer and you will not be pissing off your neighbor's with a thick cloud of useless unhealthy smoke and steam. Take your new EPA stove and park it under these conditions. You also mentioned 40%mc Cut that in half and you will start standing a chance to keep all woodburners from being banned.
Dont compare residential to Industrial.  Two different worlds.


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## precaud (Nov 26, 2010)

I'm guessing there's some nat gas in his process too.


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## oldspark (Nov 26, 2010)

I agree with north of 60-sad very sad!


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## formula_pilot (Nov 26, 2010)

Dennis, 

How do you keep the metal roofing from blowing away? I only see a little bit of weight on them. With the wind we get up here, I would have to put a bunch of splits on top to keep them from flying away.   I like the metal idea much better than tarps.  I am trying rubber coated fabric this year, so far so good.

Bill


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 26, 2010)

Good question Bill. If you look at the picture below you will see some odd pieces. Usually when splitting is done we have enough odd ones that we just throw them on top of the roofing. Most times this is all that is needed but sometimes I'll put some cement blocks on if the stack happens to be out in the open too much. 

The pictured stack did get enough wind this fall that I had to chase down a couple sheets of the stuff. Usually though we are enough in the woods that it doesn't bother much. 

In the stack you had pictured, this one was never a problem and it was stacked from 2003 until this summer. Now there is only about 2/3 of a cord left of that wood.


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## soupy1957 (Nov 28, 2010)

That (your response near the beginning of this thread) is one of the most easily understood and carefully thought out, coherent and detailed explanations I have ever read I've even copy/pasted and kept a copy

Battenkiller, ........I bow down!! 

Thanks!!

-Soupy1957


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## glhenry56 (Nov 28, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> PickensPlanFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jeez, hold on there, boys, I'm not saying that _I_ burn wet wood wood _at home_. And I think I made it clear that operating a 1000 psi industrial boiler is not exactly the same as loading up my Tarm.  My point was that the greener wood can certainly keep you warm even if you don't have a deep understanding of the chemistry involved.  You thought I was advocating for green wood? 

Since I stirred up "north of 60", "oldspark", and "precaud" so much, let me elaborate a bit on burning 50% wet biomass_ (at work)_:
We convert low grade fuel into process steam and 13.8 kV electricity.  It is not at all practical to fabricate equipment to dry out the the quantity of fuel we consume before metering it to our boiler.  The final drying occurs in the furnace of course, and the resulting flue gas, after being treated with urea (for low NOx control), then passing through our dust cyclones, electrostatic precipitators, and wet scrubber, is far "cleaner" than the very best EPA home stove burning 98% dry wood.  What is "very sad" is that we occasionally must burn some #6 oil (no, we don't have natural gas), and we all know where most of THAT comes from.

Thanks for the opportunity to clear the the air.  :  )


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## oldspark (Nov 28, 2010)

Pickens, I knew you were talking about work, my concern was with the fact the wood was that wet it was a waste of energy!


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## glhenry56 (Nov 28, 2010)

10-4 on the waste of energy.  Those of us in the boiler house gripe a lot to the Procurement folks about poor quality (wet, stringy, etc.) biomass they get for us.  We once did a trial using digester grade chips (i.e. really nice & clean) and loved the result.  Alas, there is only so much our folks can do about biomass quality, and it wouldn't make sense for us to spend more on it than we spend on fuel oil.


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## RoseRedHoofbeats (Nov 28, 2010)

Y'all are way over-thinking this.

Moisture content is about water. Burning wood is about fire. Water is the direct opposite of fire. Therefore, less water is good. The end. I suppose if maybe ALL YOU EVER HAD FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE to burn was stuff that was less than 15% MC then you might have to adjust how you used your stove, but I'd rather be that person than someone trying to burn wood that was more than 25%. Or suffer from first year woodburner's syndrome and be freaking out trying to buy wood in October that was well-seasoned ever again!

~Rose


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## Bigg_Redd (Nov 29, 2010)

Steve M said:
			
		

> Can wood be "over" seasoned?




No


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