# Vermont Castings Aspen vs Jotul 602



## neumsky (Dec 29, 2011)

I'm hearing that Vermont Castings now builds the Jotul 602??? But I'm also hearing that the aspen does'nt have a good track record as I need a small stove for a 200 sq. ft. room.  Thanx

(edit: Jotul builds the Jotul 602)


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## kingquad (Dec 29, 2011)

How about an Englander VL-17?  Plenty of happy users here.  Cheaper too.


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## neumsky (Dec 29, 2011)

I just looked at the 17-VL and it's not the style that I have an interest in... I do appreciate all options as that is the first time I have heard of that model... so thank you very much.


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## leeave96 (Dec 29, 2011)

I considered the Aspen when I was in a search for a woodstove a few years ago.  Long story short, I wound-up with a Woodstock Keystone.  The same stove with a different look is the Woodstock Palladian.  Check out woodstove.com

Good luck,
Bill


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## kingquad (Dec 29, 2011)

From what I understand, the 602 is a very capable little heater.  I don't know your budget or style, but you could check out the Hearthstone Tribute or Woodstock Keystone as well.  The soapstone would probably be more tolerable than a cast heater in that size room.  Keystone has really good burn times too.


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## kingquad (Dec 29, 2011)

leeave96 said:
			
		

> I considered the Aspen when I was in a search for a woodstove a few years ago.  Long story short, I wound-up with a Woodstock Keystone.  The same stove with a different look is the Woodstock Palladian.  Check out woodstove.com
> 
> Good luck,
> Bill


Damn.  Beat me to it.


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## neumsky (Dec 30, 2011)

I noticed that the Aspen is almost 100 lbs. more than the Jotul... to me that means more quality??? How long has the Aspen been in production??? does'nt seem to be as many out there as the Jotuls?


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## kingquad (Dec 30, 2011)

I would choose the Jotul over the VC.  I believe the Aspen is a downdraft stove.  Do a board search on "everburn" and read about the potential problems with these stoves.  Then go buy the Jotul.


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## Stephen in SoKY (Dec 30, 2011)

What about a little Morso Squirrel?

ETA:  http://www.morsona.com/index.php/classic-stoves.html


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## precaud (Dec 30, 2011)

The Aspen is a bit of a turkey. All that extra weight is not a good thing for a small stove, unless you like stoves that dribble out small amounts of heat over a longer period of time. I'd go with the F602 over an Aspen any day. The 17-VL will out-heat either one of them for less $$$.


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## bjkjoseph (Dec 30, 2011)

i had an aspen...not a good stove..every fire was a runaway inferno..longest burn time was about an hour and a half.....i cut a bunch of my wood in half and it worked good that way..if i was just going to have a fire after work for a few hours it would be ok...i replaced it with the fireview...it has a long burn time..but does not throw a lot of heat like a cast iron stove...so there perfect for smaller areas.


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## fraxinus (Dec 30, 2011)

The Jotul 602 is, I believe, the largest selling wood stove in the world. Mine, used mainly just in the spring and fall, is more than 30 years old and looks as good and works as well as it did the day it was installed.  There are just too many uncertainties with the present Vermont Castings company in terms of design, quality control, and warranty issues for its products to be the equal of Jotul's, imo.

I believe the Vermont Castings foundry did and may still cast some parts for Jotul in the US, but they do not make the stove.


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## webby3650 (Dec 30, 2011)

kingquad said:
			
		

> I would choose the Jotul over the VC. I believe the Aspen is a downdraft stove. Do a board search on "everburn" and read about the potential problems with these stoves. Then go buy the Jotul.


 The Aspen is not a down draft stove, but you gave sound advice. Go buy a Jotul, you will bot be disappointed.


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## fishingpol (Dec 30, 2011)

I had an Aspen for my first stove.  It is firebrick lined so it adds to the weight. The 602 has interior burnplates.  I did find that the air inlets on the Aspen get clogged with ash, which required frequent cleaning.  My dad has a 1970's 602 without secondary air intake.  He is putting in a new one soon, and I can't wait to see the difference in heat output and burn time.  I'm partial to Jotul, as the quality is there, and the 602 has been a proven small room heater.

I do miss the north/south burn though.


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## neumsky (Dec 30, 2011)

@ Stephen in So Ky...I looked at the Morso...it's cute... and would be a consideration as I go thru my research for what I need. Or want. It will be nice if someone would chime in on this that has a Morso squirrel or any Morso to let us know how the company & product is.   Thanx


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## neumsky (Dec 30, 2011)

When you guy's say North to South burn... that means Rear to Front burn??? Why does it do that and whats the advantage? disadvantage?


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## neumsky (Dec 31, 2011)

I want to thank you all for your input


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## fishingpol (Dec 31, 2011)

neumsky said:
			
		

> When you guy's say North to South burn... that means Rear to Front burn??? Why does it do that and whats the advantage? disadvantage?



My bad,I should have said north/south loading.  The wood is loaded perpindicular to the glass, whereas east/west is when the wood is parralel to the glass and there is a chance of a burning split rolling towards the stove door during burn cycles.  The Jotul F118 black bear is a front to back burner or "cigar burn".  The F118 reccommends pulling the coals forwardtowards the door and adding new splits.  I don't know if the 602 is considered one or not, as the firebox is smaller that the 118. 

I don't see a real disadvantage to it, just one less thing to worry about I guess.

We did get my dad's 602 installed yesterday, and it is is a beauty.  It was neat to see the technology difference in the two of them.


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## precaud (Dec 31, 2011)

fishingpol said:
			
		

> My bad,I should have said north/south loading.  The wood is loaded perpindicular to the glass, whereas east/west is when the wood is parralel to the glass and there is a chance of a burning split rolling towards the stove door during burn cycles.



Actually, it doesn't describe the orientation of the wood to the glass, but of how the primary air is delivered to the wood. In a north/south burner, the primary air is presented at one end of the wood load. In an east/west burner, it is presented at one side. In most stoves, primary air is delivered from the front of the stove, but not always.



> The Jotul F118 black bear is a front to back burner or "cigar burn".  The F118 reccommends pulling the coals forwardtowards the door and adding new splits.  I don't know if the 602 is considered one or not, as the firebox is smaller that the 118.



That is a common misconception. The original 118 (and 602) was a front-to-back (i.e. north/south) burner, but the F118 is not. It burns the entire load at once. The F602 still burns north/south, mainly because there is no secondary air at the very back of the firebox.


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## fishingpol (Dec 31, 2011)

Ah, I see.  I looked at the new 118 manual, and it makes sense.  Cigar burn was the old style.  Thanks for the correction Precaud.


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## neumsky (Dec 31, 2011)

But in their new liturature...they still use the term...cigar burn!


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## neumsky (Dec 31, 2011)

@ Greenteam....I went to a Jotul distributor yesterday...not a retailer... and they said Jotul still makes Jotul. Those stoves are stout! I don't believe I've seen a more stout cast iron stove yet! No... I do not work for Jotul haha. I'm learning...just like the rest of ya'll.  Thanx


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## precaud (Dec 31, 2011)

neumsky said:
			
		

> But in their new liturature...they still use the term...cigar burn!



Yes, marketing dep'ts can use non-technical terms like that, playing on our fond memories of (smoldering, polluting) "cigar burns" in the box stoves of yore... romantic images of trails of smoke emitting from the chimney of a cabin deep in the snow-covered northern woodlands... xmas postcard material... and that is essentially the F118's reason for being. Box stoves have a powerful, almost anthropomorphic aesthetic appeal. Heck, I know better, and it still tugs at me when I see one. (read my brief encounter with a Waterford box stove last year - or was it two years ago - one loses track after a while...)

But it is, in fact, irrational. No modern combustion engineer would ever design one like that intentionally, without a marketing dep't twisting his/her arm to do so. It's just not a firebox geometry conducive to the requirements of modern wood burning. It does nothing that a different geometry couldn't do better and more reliably.


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## VCBurner (Dec 31, 2011)

Sorry to drop in on you again Jeff,
The 602 is A step in the right direction. Vermont Castings makes parts for Jotul North America, the parts are too heavy to ship, hence you don't see too many imported stoves anymore. 
VC has been tossed around from company to company since the 80's. But their foundry has picked up business due to increased shipping costs and low quality of Chinese made castings. The Dutchwest line was not discontinued like someone said on your other threads. It has been one of themost popular and lucrative lines since it was purchased by VC in the late eighties. VC revamped the Federal Airtight CDW line into what it is today and improved mechanically on an already popular catalog line. The DW line was recently shifted out of the VC line and into its sister company's line. My gues is VC dealers have a lot  on their plate with the introduction of their 2n1 system and the mother co. wants to diversify the other line by adding the DW to it.  Less competition for DW could boost sales.

It is true the 602 is the most popular stove in the world. There have been more of them sold than any other model or brand. The Aspen, is another story. I've seen lots of bad feedback on them.  Given the choice between a  Dutchwest 2460(small), an Aspen or a Jotul 602 I would go with the DW or the 602. Personal experience would push me to the DW. But I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Those smaller stoves have short burn times, there's nothing like loading a stove at night and knowing you will have heat all night and will not need a match to start it before you leave to go to work! The Jotul Castine or Oslo, the DW 2461 and the Woodstock Keystone will do just that.


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## Bub381 (Dec 31, 2011)

I asked about an Aspen here and they said NOOOOOOOOO,it wont draft.That was at the stove Shoppe.It was in the corner and going back.
.


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## neumsky (Dec 31, 2011)

Ya...I'm starting to think I am looking at the F118 Black Bear.


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## Bub381 (Dec 31, 2011)

It's says it's quite a heater,i was surprised.


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## neumsky (Dec 31, 2011)

@ Bub381...which one...the Black Bear or the 602!?  I can say this...from the experiences of my lifetime...the number one stove did'nt get there on a whim. It's a smidgen small for my application...I'm thinking seriously on the Black Bear...the Big Brother to the number one stove in the world!


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## Bub381 (Dec 31, 2011)

I haven't read much on the 602,i really can't say.A dealer will help you in this case and you also want to look each stove over,inside and out before you buy.


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## Bub381 (Dec 31, 2011)

Just looked,is the 602 the Aspen.The dealer here told me they wont draft.I looked at the Morso squirrel and have you looked at the height of the firebox at the back.YIKES! A 1 room heater maybe.Look on Jotul.com and look at their small stoves.How easy will a 118 load if you have a log already in there and you want to load for the night.I know they will take a long log and i know we like to burn to coaling stage before we reload but it doesn't always happen that way.You go to the showroom and look em over good.Take a list with you of what you want in a stove.Some features you may compromise for a different 1 in a different stove but take a list.We forget when we get to looking these beauties over.Sorry i can't be of more help.Ask LOTS of questions,if they sound stupid imagine how we'll feel with this kind of money in a stove that doesn't meet our expectations.Any questions keep asking before you make your mind up.That's y we're here.Well that and to brag some.lol As they say,buy bigger because you can build a small fire in a big stove but you can't build a big 1 in a small stove.


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## fishingpol (Dec 31, 2011)

The 602 comes in at 28,000 BTU's and heats up to an 800 sq ft room.  The F118 comes in around 60,000 BTU's and heats 1,800 sq ft.  It is twice the stove as the 602.  It seems to be quite a jump up in size.


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## neumsky (Dec 31, 2011)

fishingpol...BTW...love the name... I know that it's quite a jump but...the dealers said that you can build what size fire you want in it. I'm still not excluding the idea of the 602 as it is only for supplemental heat & just in case we lose power to hold us over till we get power back. The other stoves for the Jotul line don't seem quite as quality to me as I eyeballed them yesterday. These Box stoves are the bomb! @Bub381 just curious how you got that name... you hit the nail on the head... you can build a smaller fire in the bigger stove. Thanx   Jeff


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2011)

In new, small box stoves my preference is the Morso 2B. In small Jotuls I'd look at the F100.


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## fishingpol (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks on the avatar name.  I like to go fishing and I am part Polish.  Dropping the "e" off the end was intentional.  

I first owned the Aspen, I think it was around 28,000 btu's.  I went to the Jotul F-100 which was around 35,000 btu's.  I now have the Jotul F3 and it is around 42,000 btu's  I can tell you that I can tell the difference between 35 and 42 is quite a difference.  I would ask others to chime in here about making a small fire in a big stove, if you will get a different range of heat.   I guess what you need to determine is how much time is spent in the room and are you trying to move heat into other rooms.  There are so many variables here.  Many here can help you.  The price difference is pretty substantial I would imagine.  If I was to spend a lot of time in a room with a 118 running, yeah, a small load of wood would be in order.  On a full load dry eyeballs will be happening.


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## neumsky (Dec 31, 2011)

Chris...please don't appologize...stop in any time. I implore you!


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## precaud (Dec 31, 2011)

neumsky, do yourself a favor... don't get sucked into the box stove mystique... there are good fundamental reasons why new box stoves aren't being developed any more.


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

@ Precaud...or anyone...Well the box stove mentality still have the reburn capabilities...otherwise they would'nt be called Clean Burn technology. These boxes still have a efficiency rating of over 75%. I would be very happy with that....I'm not sure what your saying or referring to when you say box stove mystique! Please help me out with that one.   Jeff


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## precaud (Jan 1, 2012)

Jeff, you're new here... welcome. I'm trying to give you the benefit of my past experience with these stoves without launching into a long technical discussion. "Reburn"... "Clean burn technology"... "efficiency rating"... these are all marketing terms/claims, and not real performance measures that can be directly compared from one stove to another, let alone one brand to another. All modern stoves have them, but they are not all the same from one stove to the next. And they aren't what a noobie should be paying the most attention to in selecting an EPA stove for the first time. The most important is getting the right size firebox for the space you want to heat. 

The long/narrow cast iron box-style stoves are designs from a different era of wood burning, when the priorities were different. "Clean burn technology" has been cobbled into them to get them to pass current EPA specs (they won't pass the next phase), yes some work better than others, but that doesn't mean they are an optimum solution. It would be like taking a car from 30 years ago, adding modern pollution controls to it, and expecting it to perform like a modern car. Ain't gonna happen. It will still guzzle gas and drive like a boat. In the real world, I'd say you will give up 10-15% or more overall efficiency compared to a more modern-designed stove.

Of the box stoves, the F118 and Aspen have significant shortcomings and known issues. Use the search function of this website and read the experience of prior owners. The F602 and Morso 2B are better designs, if they are the right size for your needs. But more modern designs will outperform any of them. Why must you have a box stove?


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## Bub381 (Jan 1, 2012)

Bub is my nickname and the 381 was added when i wanted to register on a site.The idea of building a small fire in a big stovecame fr om the stove shop and from several people on here.It wasn't my idea but it makes sense.There will be differences yes but it sure will be hard to heat with too small of a stove.Another thing i read was find your sq footage and add 300 ft but it depends on your zone.Just lay back and take it all in but do your own research,read stove reviews also.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 1, 2012)

The problem with larger stoves is they take a while to heat up, even with a good fire.  If you build a small fire in them it could take much longer than you think it would.  If a small heater fits the bill, I wouldn't go for one too much larger.


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## Bub381 (Jan 1, 2012)

No  i wouldn't go too much.About like going from a 100 to a Castine


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## fraxinus (Jan 1, 2012)

greenteam said:
			
		

> and if vermont castings is such a crap company then what had Jotul harmond lodge and englander subcontracted them to cast for them same people same raw materials same equipment making the parts no matter what the
> final; name brand of the stove or frying pan is
> 
> also made in usa




Casting parts (which may or may not involve identical raw materials) is a crucial first step in making any stove. It is, however, far from the only consideration. The stove design, ease of operation, quality control at the assembly stage, manufacturer's warranty, dealer support network, and a number of other factors are even more important than who makes the raw castings. The original Vermont Castings company had few peers in creating high quality wood stoves. After two (?) bankruptcies and the recent takeover by the Moessen company, a prudent stove buyer would adopt a wait and see attitude toward VC stoves.

Just to clarify, Jotul North America's headquarters and factory are located in Gorham, Maine. A very large number of stoves is built there - the new Rangely was also developed there - while some models continue to be made in Norway and shipped to the US.


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

@ Precaud...thank you for the welcome... I like being here with all you Pyro's haha. Starting off I would like to know what you mean by the F118 & Aspen having significant shortcomings. But the 602 does not. Their all box stoves. As a matter of fact if you take the glass door on your stove and move it to the side...you would now have a box stove. I even went and compared alot of these so called box stoves with the other so called modern boxes and really see no significant difference. They all have a method of reburning in a BOX & send it out a tube into the sky. I can understand that there are differences because I have been dealing with aerodynamic energy for 33+ years for a profession. But there all still boxes. I have an open ear for the opinions on the SIGNIFICANT differences. This box is almost identical to the 602 and you said IT is a much better design. The 118 has been around probably longer than just about anything out there and that in itself says something about it. I like the looks of it. I think the industry has gone to moving the door to the other side is so it does'nt stick out into the room as much. I'm old fashioned, I guess. I am not upset if it seems like I am. I am getting ready to lay down some money on this BOX and don't want to if you know there really is something significantly wrong with the 118. Some people have chimed in thinking I want this for the purpose heating 2200 ft of home. Goes to show people don't read everything. I want this only for supplemental heat and if we lose power I want it in case just to keep the pipes from freezing. I do have a generator. Thanx   Jeff  BTW...I don't think they can say if it's 75% efficient...it better be or else it's false advertising. I do believe there is not too many people out there that can really tell how efficient their stoves really are! How do you tell? Do you stand out there with some kind of laser gun & measure the smoke? I know the manufactures have some kind of method...but do we as a consumer? Please respond soon???  Thanx again    Jeff


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2012)

I can see this devolving into semantics. Sure all woodstoves are boxes (or cylinders) so is a car by that definition. In woodstoves though, it is not the same thing. A box stove is defined by it's shape. That is a stove that is much deeper than wide with a long rectangular firebox. There are only a handful of box stoves currently sold on the market. And only four that I know of that are EPA approved. Of the 4 the Morso 2B is probably the most successful design.


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

BeGreen...I want to know why you think that boxes are more square than rectangular as far as them not being as good of a wood stove. Semantic that haha. Why is the morso the best out of the 4? Dont' let me buy this thing if it is in fact a problem child. Please! I'm not so sure I like the word devolving either. Thats like saying there is no such thing as a dumb question. But...


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2012)

Precaud already covered this. It's hard to get a clean burn that will meet EPA requirements in this configuration. Morso has done the best job so far. Their design is reliable and it's size is nice, taking a bit more wood in the firebox than the F602CB. The F602CB is not a bad little stove, but the firebox is small. We have a neighbor that has been heating their small place with one for a few years now and they still like it, but this is the first and only stove they've owned.  

As far as the stoves I have owned, after close to 40 yrs of burning, circumstances change with different homes and locations. Our F602 came with the house, but was undersized. Then our needs completely changed post remodel in 2006. I also have a partner that was more focused on show than go, thus the Castine. It was only after an 8 day power outage in a cold winter that she conceded to a bigger stove for longer burn times. This coincided with Tom making me an offer I couldn't refuse. No regrets. Besides, I like testing new stoves. If I lived alone I would probably change them out every couple years just so I could experience the differences.


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

Ok...still want to know your experience or someone elses experience with the new 118's. before I spend the coin on one. Did look up the Morso and did not find alot of info on it... do appreciate it tho.


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## precaud (Jan 1, 2012)

Jeff, first, the "new 118" is not a 118, it is an F118. Please don't confuse the two by calling them the same thing, they are different critters entirely.

Second, if you're really serious about knowing the experience of others with the F118, do as we have suggested and USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION for "F118". You'll find much has been written over several years by people with real-world experience with it, including me, as well as some comparisons to the 118. After you've done that, if you still have questions, come back and we'll talk.

Third, if, as you say, "they're all box stoves" i.e. all the same, then you don't need further info - just go buy one and be done with it.

And lastly, as I asked before, why are you only looking at box stoves?


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

@ Precaud...as I stated before... I like the looks... and I already did what you suggested and can't find much on it... Must be a good stove than??? It's been around a long time...yes I'm curious as to why they appended the F to the 118. So I'm starting to think you guys are talking about something you do not have any experience with than?


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2012)

I haven't owned one. But it was my first choice to replace the 602. This was before this current forum, back when it was a BBS. Unfortunately those threads are long gone I think. As I researched the F118CB I chatted with a couple owners. Unfortunately they were less than satisfied with the burn and reported warping secondary racks and run arounds with the dealers claiming they had overfired the stove. Agreed the data sample for the stove is small, I don't think it is a big seller. Anyhow, long story short for me was that I changed stove selection rather than experimenting with the stove. If you get one, great. That will be another data point if you would follow through with impressions on an annual basis.  

Here's some good threads discussing the stove:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23539/
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/woodheat/message/9298


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## precaud (Jan 1, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> @ Precaud...as I stated before... I like the looks...



Not a good reason all by itself to buy a stove, IMO.



> and I already did what you suggested and can't find much on it... Must be a good stove than???



I hope you don't employ this sort of negative reasoning in your engineering work. Can't find much? There is LOTS to read:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/search_results/55371f3a1f181a7fa187c6a461d6eaab/

including my experience with two of them.



> So I'm starting to think you guys are talking about something you do not have any experience with than?



A good way to be ignored is to continue posting arrogant, disrespectful nonsense like that.


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## Bub381 (Jan 1, 2012)

Guys and gals, he wants a box stove so he might as well pick the best 1 we know of.Is the F118 your best pick? I guess this is a better question.


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

Oh Precaud you can dish it out...but you can't take it...that's alright...we don't have to talk anymore...I'd rather talk to someone that can read anyways.


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

Begreen...thank you very much for your help and Bub381...I appreciate the approach...that might be haha.


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## Bub381 (Jan 1, 2012)

lol Hey,i like what i like and i got alot of help here getting what i wanted.I changed my mind a few times but i got my stove. ;-)


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

How do you like that Rangeley and has the company Jotul treated you fairly?


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## VCBurner (Jan 1, 2012)

Jeff,
Some guys on this site know more than the salesperson at a stoveshop. They will tell you whatever to make a sale, often times misleading you into a sale. Why would you spend a ton of money on something that can't perform in today's standards. It's almost like buying a brand new Fiero in 2012!

Yes those stoves were great in their hayday, but now they are just that. Today they don't compare in terms of performance. I owned a Surdiac that was supposedly 86% efficient, it was built in 1980. In terms of raw heat it was great! But it could not stand a chance in wood comsumption and burn time against modern stoves. Not to mention EPA standards.

If you just want something to throw wood in and get a bit of heat once in a while, buy a used stove on craigslist for a couple hundred bucks.

If you want a good heater look for a stove with a good secondary burn system, catalytic or reburn tubes, or even both!  VC has the 2n1, which is sort of a new thing Woodstock has a new Progress also with a cat and nc secondary. Obviously, you're not in the hunt for one of those, but at least consider giving a moder design a chance!

If you are convinced you found what you need, you could be happy with your purchase. Just know, that it does not stand up to many other stoves. Stoves with good secondary burn systems.


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## precaud (Jan 1, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> Oh Precaud you can dish it out...but you can't take it...that's alright...we don't have to talk anymore...I'd rather talk to someone that can read anyways.



You're one of those folks who twists things around 180 degrees and then acts like its real. I'll gladly ignore your further posts. You fully deserve a box stove.


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

The reason I'm partly thinking the way I am is is because if the number one stove is the jotul F602CB...and everybody is claiming it is too small(but probably will suffice most of my needs...most of the time...why not just get it's bigger brother(F118CB for taking care of most of the needs and the occasional situations)? They look to me to be of the same design as I looked at them the other day. Thanx Chris...will keep it in mind. Jeff


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## neumsky (Jan 1, 2012)

You know Precaud...I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot... as I'm sure you are very experienced in this stuff more than I...It's not the first rodeo I've been to. You just did'nt take all my comments into account.


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## Bub381 (Jan 1, 2012)

To be truthful,i think you'd like a Castine.The Rangeley seems to be a nice stove but there are a few things i have to change next year like me splitting my wood too big,it's hard to load a stove with big splits.I haven't had a stove before to compare to but i think this stove will be fine. I can load straight in with 18" or E W 20".This stove heats 2000 sq ft.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 2, 2012)

I really don't have a dog in this hunt, but...

I don't think the old 602 can be compared to the new F602.   They are different stoves with the same shell.  Its a marketing game saying it is the same stove as the past.  It's kind of like the space shuttle that debuted in 1981 is the same craft that flew its last flight last year.  The F-15 that flew first in 1972 is the same one that flys now.  You might be fully happy with it, but it isn't the same beast.   It doesn't burn anywhere near the same way as the ones that made the name did.  To be fair to yourself you should understand that. 

This is the same with the 118 and F118.  They look the same, but are radically different.

I think Precaud is only trying to state this.  Again, you may be fully happy with the way the new ones burn.  But don't convince yourself that they are the same stove that your Grandfather had available to him.  If you put a new engine in an old muscle car, you are still hampered by the fundamental limitations of the old design.  It will still rattle, squeak and have a lousy sound system...  but will have the look you want.  

Good luck and I hope you are happy with whichever stove you choose.   

Matt


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 2, 2012)

Oh, I also noticed that there haven't been any Jotul dealers weighing in.   I know there is at least one on the board.   

Matt


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## VCBurner (Jan 2, 2012)

Jeff, FWIW,
 I loved my little Atlanta Stoveworks Box#27.  I sold four wood stoves last August, that was one of them. It was a joy to operate from the livingroom fireplace. You just put wood in and let it rip! We used it for two heating seasons, It was hard to sell it. We almost kept it because it fit in so well with my wife's primitive decor.  Of course, I understand your attachment to that design. We replaced it with a Dutchwest 2461.  That was even harder to see going on the back of someone's pick up truck. I just looked at the Jotul site into the F118's specks and they look impressive.  It may be a wood eater though, the old Fishers and Allnighters were great heaters and had long burns but it took a ton of wood to keep them going! Funny thing is Jotul doesn't seem to list EPA emission rates or firebox cubic footage. Another way to keep customers in the dark? If it wasn't for their excellent track record I'd be worried. They leave the dealers in charge of determining what customers really need, which can be a crap shoot.  A major reason why the 118 and 602 stoves were so popular was affordability, of course combined with the craftsmanship and quality castings that have made Jotul so popular. They have had designs that were not successful for different reasons. Obviously the 118 was one, as today's model had to be redesigned in order to pass EPA ratings. The exterior is a well liked design, but the guts are just barely enough to pass EPA approval.  Nice looking stove, though.  Good luck, I'm sure whatever you end up with, you'll love burning wood, if you are anything like a lot of people here ;-)


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## neumsky (Jan 2, 2012)

Hey Matt...thanx for the input...Why do you think the dealers are not chiming in? They must all be hung over haha. Happy New Year to ya'll.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 2, 2012)

I don't know why they haven't said a thing.  I just find it interesting.   

I like the looks of a box stove also.  I had to pull out an old pot belly from the cabin.  I was looking at the Aspen and company and finally ended up deciding to use the small Century I have.  I'll be working on the chimney this year.  

Matt


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## neumsky (Jan 2, 2012)

@ VCBurner...It is difficult to see how to pick a stove out...particularily when ya'll keep buying other stoves...you'd think besides the fact something is cheap is the reason why something is bought...you'd think we could figure out today which is the number one stove purchased...or at least one of the top 5 or something. So you miss the Dutchwest cat???


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## VCBurner (Jan 2, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> @ VCBurner...It is difficult to see how to pick a stove out...particularily when ya'll keep buying other stoves...you'd think besides the fact something is cheap is the reason why something is bought...you'd think we could figure out today which is the number one stove purchased...or at least one of the top 5 or something. So you miss the Dutchwest cat???


 Yes, I miss my Dutchwest, dearly!  Even though my Windsor could have tons of heat pumping out of it  with the touch of a button! Crazy,right? 
 My first stove was the Box#27, non airtight, nothing to control but the ash pan lid, which served as an air intake of sorts. A friend of mine gave me that one. After a 6 day power outage I decided to get something a little more efficient that could heat the entire house. I bought Surdiac Gotha 513 for $80 on craigslist, it heated my house for the better part of two heating seasons. It was thermostatically controlled and was a huge seller in the 70's and 80's.  You coud just fill it and set the thermostat, which would control the air intake, so operation was easy, but fires were short.  It was also a coal stove, so if we ever ran out of wood, we could grab some bags of coal and run it for up to 24 hours on one load.  Coal was not my cup of tea though.
 I started heating the house strickly with wood after seeing how much money I could save.  The oil man would come to the neighbor's house and I'd smile knowing how expensive those monthly visits were! I even convinced the next door neighbor to supplement his heat after he came into my house and saw how warm he could be in the winter! He ended up with a pellet burner insert in his fireplace and his furnace was pretty much off after that day!  My journey was a bit more complicated. I had started to look for a used modern EPA rated stove that was capable of an overnight burn and was a wood saver that could heat my house in the coldest of nights by itself.  I had two stoves at that point, one in the basement and the other in the livingroom fireplace.  I went through  6.5-7 cords the year before I bought my Dutchwest. That was cut in half the following season. I found it used, newly reconditioned for$600.  It was just like new, every seam recemented, new paint and gaskets, looked just like the ones at the stoveshop. The cat was used but had a couple seasons left on it.  The thing was heavy, 436 pounds of double walled cast iron, built like a tank.  No briddle refractory or ceramic baffles that could break while loading. The only refractory part is housed inside the secondary burn chaimber where no log could reach it on top of the fire box, hidden by a cast iron baffle that is a very unique design. A time tested design that has remained the same since 1993.  It has had one of the lowest emmission ratings on the market.  Still today.  
I agree  it is difficult choosing a stove. I had a hard time selecting one, or four...
The truth is I fell in love with wood stoves...LOL...my wife thinks I'm crazy...obsessed with stoves...like many of us here are.  But when we moved, we ended up with hundreds of dollars and a brand new washer/dryer set wort $2000 in the new house, as a result of my stove sales. I spent a fraction of the money that we made on the stoves. It is always fun testing out a new stove, my best one was the Dutchwest. True there are others that would do the same. Some may even be better. But Dutchwest cat stoves are still some of the best bang for your buck in cast iron EPA rated. Low emmissions, low maintenance cost, low wood consumption, controlable heat and low burn capability.


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## nola mike (Jan 2, 2012)

My F602 n heats my 2k sqft house just fine.  Small firebox means frequent (every 2 hours at least) reloads.  A bit harder to use than the old 602, but I'm managing to get good great output out of it, and it burns much cleaner.  I like the window a lot too.


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## neumsky (Jan 2, 2012)

Your not a salesman are you Chris??? haha... Ok...now that's the stuff I wanna hear. Would you even consider going back to the DW cat? Now that we've beat the Jotul F118CB to death and I still will not count that out...is there a non cat cast iron stove out there right now that's not having issues with their reburn system as the everburn is? And thanx to nola Mike above...that stove is still a serious contender to me. I also admit that when I pull up info on the DW there is'nt alot of info on it either??? I'm going to stove & fireplace reviews on here.


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## certified106 (Jan 2, 2012)

Have you looked at the PE True North? It has box stove styling with secondary combustion. I believe one of the members (Cowboy Billy) just bought one and seemed to like it a lot. I know it is larger than what you where interested in but you can run smaller loads in this stove and still obtain the same burn time as a smaller stove.  Here is the link to the website http://www.pacificenergy.net/truenorth/tn19.php


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## neumsky (Jan 2, 2012)

Yeah...certified...it's a pretty good size stove... a dealer here in OKC carrys these but will not be open until the 3rd so will try & go & see them on the 4th... I've heard good things about PE. But nothing beats that look of a 118 haha. Am hearing that a non cat burns less wood than a cat model???


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## certified106 (Jan 2, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> Yeah...certified...it's a pretty good size stove... a dealer here in OKC carrys these but will not be open until the 3rd so will try & go & see them on the 4th... I've heard good things about PE. But nothing beats that look of a 118 haha. Am hearing that a non cat burns less wood than a cat model???



Yeah the 118 is a cool looking stove. In all honesty the cat vs non cat is like beating a dead horse since most of the EPA approved stoves will burn within 5-10% efficiency of each other when being run correctly. It would be really hard to tell the difference in efficiency based on how much wood you burn as it is all subjective and depends on the moisture content and how long you let the wood catch etc......The only real difference is the cat lets you burn slightly slower than the non cat on some stoves. I haven't noticed much difference in my burn times between my old Dutchwest and my T6. The only difference I have noticed is the T6 does peak the temp slightly higher in the middle of the load but we are only talking 2-3Â° higher than the Dutchwest would have and for my house it is actually helping keep the upstairs temps up more than in the years past so it is a welcome change.


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## neumsky (Jan 2, 2012)

So Certified...you've had good luck with the Dutchwests??? And are these the cat versions???


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## certified106 (Jan 2, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> So Certified...you've had good luck with the Dutchwests??? And are these the cat versions???


 I have been around Dutchwest wood stoves since I was old enough to remember.....My parents have always had at least one Dutchwest (and at times 2-3) which I cared for while living at home and then I had one in my house for roughly 6 years. All of the Dutchwest stoves we have had were the cat stoves and I would steer a wide berth around a non cat Dutchwest as they are plagued with problems and expensive parts. If you are looking for an entry level cat stove the Dutchwest is the best bang for the buck out there in my opinion. Ours have been extremely reliable and we have never had a problem with them.


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## Bub381 (Jan 2, 2012)

Go get 1 of those AIRTIGHT barrel stove kits


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## neumsky (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm laughing Bub...but I don't know if that's a joke or not haha!


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## neumsky (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm getting some mixed opinions out there...some say cat models burn more wood & some say the the cat models burn less wood. So what is it? haha A cord of wood is costing around a 150.00/cord? Any thoughts on this?


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## Bub381 (Jan 3, 2012)

Well it was and weren't.lol It's cheap and i saw a video on the puter where a fellow had 1 for 20 yrs.Not EPA approved and not a clean burner but will throw heat fast.Wont agree with the insurance company either.$150 a cord? WOW! $265 to $295 here and more for oak.


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## Poultry Farmer (Jan 3, 2012)

I found this discussion while using Google to search for a replacement glass for my VC Aspen 1920.    The negative comments about the stove were surprising, as I have used the stove to heat my 750 square foot .  home since 2005.  Yes, the primary air inlet does clog up if neglected, however a  quick shot of air through the rear air inlet brings it back to life.  I don't understand why an Aspen would draft poorly, or that being a heavier stove make it less desirable.   My burn times using two year old seasoned hard maple is about three to four hours, which is a stove top temperature of 300 F.


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## VCBurner (Jan 3, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> Your not a salesman are you Chris??? haha... Ok...now that's the stuff I wanna hear. Would you even consider going back to the DW cat? Now that we've beat the Jotul F118CB to death and I still will not count that out...is there a non cat cast iron stove out there right now that's not having issues with their reburn system as the everburn is? And thanx to nola Mike above...that stove is still a serious contender to me. I also admit that when I pull up info on the DW there is'nt alot of info on it either??? I'm going to stove & fireplace reviews on here.


Did you read my entire Dutchwest thread? There is enough information  about it there, good and bad, to keep you informed about that stove. Lots of posts on there about past  and present owners of Dutchwest cat stove's experiences. No, I'm not a salesman, LMAO! Yes, I would buy another Dutchwest, probably not new. There are enough people out there who want to get rid of wood stoves for health reasons, or relocation. Some just want to upgrade or even just want something newer. I know enough about them to rebuild one myself if needed. Parts are readily available.
 As far as cat vs. non cat, there isn't just one answer. Cat stoves are supposed to burn at lower rates or chocked down, better than non cats, thus extending the burn and saving on wood. Is this true when you compare any cat to any non cat? NO.  There are so many brands and models, with different designs, it is impossible to make a true statement about which burns better, longer, hotter, etc... One thing is true, catalytic stoves burn more harmful gasses than nc's, generally speaking. Catalysts burn methane gasses, for one, turning them into useful heat, there is not one non cat stove that can do this. Methane oitgassing is not even regulated by the EPA in fact. Does this mean that any cat stove will create more heat out of a similar load of wood in a non cat? NO. The stove with the longest burn time that I know of is the Blaze King King. It is catalytic, thermostatically controlled, steel constructed. They claim to get up to 42 hours on one load of wood. Does this mean it is the best stove being sold today?  Some people think so, others may not.


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## nola mike (Jan 3, 2012)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> One thing is true, catalytic stoves burn more harmful gasses than nc's, generally speaking. Catalysts burn methane gasses, for one, turning them into useful heat, there is not one non cat stove that can do this. Methane oitgassing is not even regulated by the EPA in fact.



I'm not buying this.  Methane isn't making it out of any firebox, EPA or no, without burning.


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## VCBurner (Jan 3, 2012)

nola mike said:
			
		

> VCBurner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't come up with that tidbit myself!LOL! I'm not nearly educated enough to have come up with such a theory. Go to the Sud Chemie web site and read about it there. Sud chemie has been producing all sorts of catalysts since before I was born! Who am I to argue? They were involved in the original introduction of the technology into wood stoves back in the seventies. If you have a question with the validity of the information on their site take it up with them . They are located in needham,MA. I just recently met a guy who works there coincidentally. Our kids are in the same soccer academy.
Take care,
Chris


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## begreen (Jan 3, 2012)

Heaven forbid if they have marketing people involved.


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## VCBurner (Jan 3, 2012)

I guess if you haven't measured something yourself, there really is no way of knowing if it's true or not! They just seem to have lots of scientific looking numbers and graphs floating around their site. I for one bought it. If it's all marketing at least they throw some numbers around to fool you, unlike Jotul  they just use some old saying in a foreign language to rope us in  !  No emmissions number or firebox cubic footage to confuse us dopes, right?


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## neumsky (Jan 3, 2012)

Now who's doin the crackin up haha?!


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 3, 2012)

Methane will burn without a catalytic converter attached to a stove.  I'm sure there are more than a few people on youtube lighting human produced methane.  Methane would only come about from rotting stuff.  There shouldn't be anything in your firebox long enough to rot.  

Matt


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## VCBurner (Jan 4, 2012)

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> Methane will burn without a catalytic converter attached to a stove.  I'm sure there are more than a few people on youtube lighting human produced methane.  Methane would only come about from rotting stuff.  There shouldn't be anything in your firebox long enough to rot.
> 
> Matt


I must say sorry for all the errors I've been making grammatically, the keys and screen on this phone are small and my fingers are not exactly tiny.
I wish I cold find out some more info on the subject. Kimd of hard right now since all my recent posts have been made ou of a droid.  I can't stand using it to surf the web searching for info!  But if and when I find a good source I'll try to share it here. Its source is flosting in a thread around here somewhere.

I am not against reburn tube stoves, someday I will try one. The fires are great looking in my opinion, a big plus for me. I am running strictly pellets and miss my wood fires. I'd love to have a monster with fire breathing tubes in front of me as we speak! But the Windsor keeps the furnace from going on just the same. 

I never meant for my comments to pull this thread into a cat vs. non cat argument. In fact if you look back at my posts they state how hard it is to say which is trully better than the other. I am merely trying to share information that I have learned. Obviously, methane is highly flamable. Again, I'll attempt to find the imfo again and share it with you. 

The true fact remains, the new F118 and 602 arenot on the market to seriously compete with the more modern and effective secondary burners in todays EPA concious world. Neither is the Aspen. When someone asks about how to spend their hard earned money, I have a hard time not making a case for a serious heater. That is the only way I would spend my money.

All that said, the new 118 claims to heat a good amount of space and packs an 8 hour punch. It may not be a terrible match for Jeff, despite the warping of the guts being reported. He may find himself replacing parts or not. Depends on how carefully it is watched. We all know how easy it is to achieve the red zone on the stovetop thermometer. I'd say an Oslo would do a better job. A Firelight would heat his entire house no matter what the winter brings. I also understand that Jeff does not intend on using his stove as a primary heater, but I've seen plenty of people who have said the same but later post threads aboit how they wish they went a step above. Who knows, he may catch the wood bug once he sees the warmth and savings a stove can offer.


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## neumsky (Jan 4, 2012)

I am excited This IS good stuff guys! I wonder what I'll buy???


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## neumsky (Jan 4, 2012)

You must be a hunt & pecker haha


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## VCBurner (Jan 4, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> You must be a hunt & pecker haha


?


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## neumsky (Jan 4, 2012)

With your typing issues haha... Just got back from Cabo...started at 0330 this morning...getting a little giddy haha.


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## VCBurner (Jan 4, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> With your typing issues haha... Just got back from Cabo...started at 0330 this morning...getting a little giddy haha.


 Gotcha! Cabo sounds nice, wifey has ben around there a few times, I have yet to. Yeah, this qwerty thing is a PITA! Especially the touch screen, but Im gettn better at it!


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## BlankBlankBlank (Jan 5, 2012)

I've found this thread interesting and at times a little heated.  Nice to see, though, that civility was maintained.  The more I read, the more I was reminded of info that I read during my first days here at Hearth.com - one of the "Please read" articles at the head of the stove forums.  It says among much else, "However, I would warn our readers and forum participants to be wary of using the Forums as a place to make actual decisions as to which stove(s) to purchase. WE ARE NOT AN UNBIASED SOURCE! You will be getting answers that run the gamut..."  The link is below.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewannounce/13750_2/

When I read advice and comments from others, I keep this in mind.  Some, perhaps a lot, of what gets posted is wound up in a lot more than scientific facts or unbiased opinions.  I don't mind this fact.  I rather like it.  It means that I'm going to get a broad range of opinions.  I'll think more.  I'll see tons of great ideas executed to a high level of skill.  I'll be entertained.  I'll make friends.  All great stuff.

Thanks to everyone who contributes here.  I'm sure glad I've found this place.


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## Chettt (Jan 5, 2012)

The first post on this thread was about a stove to heat a 200 sq ft room in Oklahoma - any stove will be more than enough.


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## neumsky (Jan 5, 2012)

@ woodnstuff...I like your pun...A LITTLE HEATED haha...and yes I read that also...it's a great advice item. I'm down to making a decision on 2 stoves now and the Jotul Black Bear is still in lead contention. I wished there was a little more viewing of the fire itself...but the stove so far makes sense for my situation and it's very eye appealing to me. How long have you had yours and what's your thoughts. Your welcome to hurt my feelings and change my thinking. Please.  Thanx   Jeff


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## neumsky (Jan 7, 2012)

Well that settles it... I had a stove company or retailer come out(they also intall & sweep) and said the Jotul F 118 CB Black Bear is too big for my situation(there the ones selling the Black Bear). What's sad is I'll probably never get to try this beauty out. I want to thank everyone for the mostly positive info on preparing myself for this little investment. I'm lovin every minute talking with ya'll. I guess some of us just have something inbread in us about wood. I used to build houses and even tho I don't do that anymore I still make little things out of wood as a secondary income. And like I mentioned in a previous post... I love to smoke & grill meats/vegetables.   Jeff


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