# Progress Hybrid Installed 12/21 replacing Fireview



## rideau (Jan 13, 2012)

3600 sq ft home, zone 5, 1100sq feet windows.  Fireview couldn't heat it.  Progress does.  On a woodlot 75 feet above, 200 feet back from a miles long lake on the south shore facing NNW.
Most remarkable points about the stove: Combustion complete.  8 full days burning, not enough ash yet to have to remove any.  (No lip, no ashpan). Produces  significantly more heat from same amount of wood versus Fireview.  Easier to start than fireview.  Requires less monitoring than Fireview.  HOME IS WARM>  Hearth is cooler.  Clearances and top venting allows stove to be set further back on pad (fireview pad) leaving 12+ inches in front of window and wood floor in front of hearth is MUCH cooler than with fireview.  Temperature remains at a steady reasonable level for far longer than fireview.
My problem:  Top venting on Progress removes a 90 degree bend, and my previously excellent draft has become an exceptional draft. 
 I'm going to fiddle with some woodstock suggestions, but may need to install a section of excel pipe with a damper embedded.  I burn maple (well seasoned 12 inch splits from big tree), beech and ironwood (logs to 10 inch, well seasoned, unsplit).  Have filled firebox usually 1/3 full up to 1/2 full.  Fire starts almost immediately, stovetop temperature on starting from cold is 250 degrees within 10-15 minutes.  Secondaries start at this point, I engage cat and close damper to zero.  Stove burns gases for a long time, then settles down to a slower burn.  Stovetop temperature does not exceed 420 degrees, is usually about 375.  Maintains this temperture for about 6-7 hours.  Then gradually cools as wood to coals to ashes.  When only ash remaining, stove temp is still 250.  Room temp usually goes from 72 to 68.  Stove relights immedately--as soon as door is closed--with a new load of wood.  Christmas Day cooked my turkey on top of the stove...put two soapstone slabs the size of a fireview top slab on either side of the Progress top, leaving a few inches in the center uncovered with a thermometer on the uncovered slab.  Put my old Fireview thermometer on the "fireview" slab.  Put my 25 pound turkey in a heavy magnalite covered roasting pan, put it on the stove , built an ironwood fire, and left it.  It cooked perfectly in seven hours...the best turkey I ever had.  Thoroughly cooked but moist and tender.  Temp on slab remained at 420, on fireview slab immediately under pan at 350, for the entire 7 hour cooking time.
I have not completely filled the firebox, because (a) I haven't needed the heat and (b) I'm burning with the damper completely closed and am a bit concerned about building a bigger fire, since I have no way of damping a fire if it gets too hot.  With this stove at 400 and the same amount of wood (or less) as Fireview, the house is 7-10 degrees warmer on first floor, much warmer 2nd and 3rd.  I actually didn't wear socks on my hardwood floor one day...no heat in the basement and the floors were warm.  Usually noticably cooler on landing betwen 1st and 2nd floor, but I didn't notice a temperature change going from 1st to 3rd floor with the Progress Hybrid.  Woodstock has some suggestions for trying to get a longer slower burn, which I will be trying.  Meanwhile, I am very happy with what I have and could live with the 8-9 hour burns I am getting.  This stove is far easier to tend than the fireview and I feel much safer.  The fireview took much longer to "reach equilibrium" and required attention for a good half hour with each new load of wood.  Any distraction in the process and one could quickly have an outrageous fire with soaring stovetop temperatures, which took a good twenty minutes to half hour to subsequently manage.  This never happens with the PH.  It starts very quickly and one never need be distracted in the engaging process.  Once the fire is set, it stays at such a consistent temperture for so long it is no worry.  Then again,as my son says, there isn't anything I can do if the stove does get too hot because the damper is already closed all the way, so I might as well not worry....so we don't build big fires.  But I'm not sure we will unless it is 30 below out.  We're getting lots of level heat out of this fabulous stove.  I used to think the Fireview was remarkable.  I cannot believe the difference in the two stoves.  This is easier to use, uses less wood for the same heat by a long shot, produces much more heat, heats the floor in front of the window less, keeps the window beautifully clean, and has a huge viewing window with a magnificent fire for viewing.  Incidentally, I feel it is safer because it keeps the room warm enough that people and pets don't get too close to it, a problem I had at the end of the Fireview cycle when the house cooled considerably.  I ordered without the lip because I do all my cooking on the stove (essentially) and don't want a hot piece of iron sticking out where I stand...a consideration for anyone who plans to do much cooking on their stove.  Decided against a plinth for the same reason (and I didn't want to wait):
I think that mass of hot cast iron at my feet is asking for trouble, and, as I get older, I have a concern about hot cast iron under the loading door.   I love this stove.


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## ddddddden (Jan 13, 2012)

Welcome, and congrats on your new stove!      Do you think you are getting "more heat from the same amount of wood" because you are burning the load more quickly with the new stove?


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## rideau (Jan 13, 2012)

No.  It is burning the wood more efficiently.  I have far less ash after the burn.


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## HollowHill (Jan 13, 2012)

Thanks for the comprehensive review.  I also have a Progress.  Would love to see pics of your setup.  I also find that my stove top temps tend to be in the 400s, although now that I've started loading it up more, I have been creeping into the 500s.  I'm not getting the burn times you are with the smaller size loads and I'm getting more ashes by far - I do have the ashpan and am emptying the big pan every 4-5 days.  So, I found that very interesting.  I will soon be replacing the door gasket to deal with a smoke smell and it will be interesting to see how that affects things such as burn time and ashes.  I'm also wondering about my draft and a pipe,  my draft seems to be great, but we are having high winds today and even at 0, I've got more of an active fire going than usual.  BTW, you forgot to mention that on top of everything else, this stove is gorgeous


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## Waulie (Jan 13, 2012)

Nice review.  I also usually see temps max out in the 400s on a half load or so, unless I really damp it down.  Then, I can burn a half load at around 350 for a long, long time.

I have a slightly oversized chimney (7X7) and I think this allows me to control those secondaries more than some folks.  I can totally kill them with up to a 60% load if I damp down before they really get rolling.  Large splits really help.  I bet a flue damper would work wonders for those with strong drafts.  Of course, then you'd have the draft control, cat damper, and flue damper to deal with.

I've had the stove top up to 580 on a mostly full load.  My wife said she had it over 600 the other day.  We are suppose to get some very cold weather and have several guests coming over the next couple days.  They like to be warm.  I will be burning harder than ever and can't wait!  Oh, and I anticipate absolutely no problems with keeping the guests as warm as they want to be.   ;-)


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## kszach (Jan 13, 2012)

I'd love to see some pictures of your setups.  I'm soon going to be putting in a wood stove and the Progress Hybrid is on the short list.


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## Todd (Jan 13, 2012)

Thanks for the review. Sounds like you may be a candidate for the smaller secondary air plate, has Woodstock informed you of this plate?


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## 3fordasho (Jan 13, 2012)

I've been waiting for the plinth base model.  Just received an email about the possibility of a short leg (5"?)version that will allow the progress to match the flue exit height of a fireview.   My install requires this as the flue in my current setup goes straight out the back of the fireview and through the wall.  They are apparantly evaluating each install of the short leg version and I need to send pics and dimensions of my hearth set up.   I am hoping it will work as the plinth base unit seems to be a couple months out yet.


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## rideau (Jan 13, 2012)

Am uninformed about the smaller secondary air plate.  Will look into it if my other experiments don't work.  Thanks.
  Wanted short legs (very much) because I was concerned the long leg version would impose more than I wished in the room, and might make the stove higher than was comfortable for me from a cooking perspective.   Woodstock told me they were not testing the stove for clearances with short legs, so went with the long legs.  Long legs have been no problem, either visually or practically.  I do not have the ash pan...don't think I'd like the way that looks, and ash removal was never a problem for me with the Fireview.  This stove will be a lot easier than the Fireview.  I did order Woodstock's rake with my stove, and use it to rake any embers and most ash to the front of the firebox before each reload...because I believe having the most heat there starts the stove up fastest...not that that has been a problem with this stove.  Actually, maybe I should try stopping that...might help to get a slower burn started.  I like the rake.  Was using a short poker for this purpose with the Fireview.  
To SE WI:  Keep it on your short list.  Pictures...I have a few and a movie or two on my SD card...really of the fire versus the installation...will go over them, then look into how to post pictures here....for someone with a son at MSFT I am VERY computer compromised.  If I don't get it done, I'll get someone to do it for me next weekend.  
I'd recommend this stove to anyone with a largish house/cold climate.  This stove actually takes less space than a Fireview because of its top vent and reduced clearance.  It is not dependent on electricty (no blowers).  It is great for cooking almost anything...I cook oatmeal, eggs, sandwiches, potatoes, soups, roasts, pasta sauces, winter squash; even bake bread. Keep tea nad hot water on the stove all the time.   I have four spare Fireview top pieces I ordered years ago.  Keep them on top of the stove...two when cooking, 4 otherwise.  Bedtime I wrap each in a beach towel and put it at the foot of each bed under the covers.  Keeps the bed toasty and is still warm the next morning.  A sister and her husband came up from Atlanta in December and took THREE to bed with them...and slept for 12 hours!  Once started my car when it was 35 below and no power for the block heater by heating slabs and putting on car hood sandwiched between blankets.  Worked like a charm.  Point being...this is a great stove to have if there is a major extended power outage.  Just be sure you have a supply of water handy when bad weather threatens...it won't run a pump.  Other than that, you don't need a generator back up if you have this stove.  With a smaller house, this is also true with Woodstock's other stoves....though the Fireview is NOT capable of cooking a turkey....doesn't keep as consistent a temperature for as long..at least in my experience.  This stove  is capable of putting out  a massive amount of heat, and the heat is very comfortable...warms you like the sun
Woodstock's stoves are beautiful, their parts are reasonably priiced, during the 8 years I have had the pleasure of doing business with Woodstock  they have been ever courteous and extraordinarily accommodating.
My only other comment at this time...I read thehearth.com site forum on wood....I can't believe how much wood people are burning.  I do have great wood-maple, ironwood, beech.  Keeping my Fireview burning with a full load, I found I used about a cord every 6 weeks during real winter weather, when never letting the fire go out.  Less wood in milder weather.  Burning the Progress Hybrid the way I am I am not using more wood, though I will obviously if I ever fill the firebox completely.  I only expect to need more heat when it is really cold.  
Do your research before buying a stove. by all means.  I did mine in 2004 and have never regretted my decision to go with Woodstock.  
Here's a short story:   built my home in 1976.  Designed for 5 Rumford fireplaces in a massive central chimney.  Worked hard to locate the "best" mason so plans would be followed carefully for the Rumfords.  Whole house built framed for the chimney and the mason put the base in the wrong place.  So I scrapped plans for chimney and filled in the framed area.  Never would have planned the fireplaces if these stoves had existed then...oh well.  My Woodstock sits where the living room fireplace would have been.  650+ pounds in the weakest spot in the house.  I really ought to put a post under it in the basement...joists are 2x 12 Douglas Fir, 2 layers of plywood over that---3/4 inch and 5/8 inch...then 5/4 x 6 long board (16 foot minimum length) white oak flooring.  So I don't think anything is going anywhere.  But I'll be more comfortable with a post under this area.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 13, 2012)

Welcome to the forum rideau.

Thank you for a well written review on the Progress. For the space and windows you have that has to be a difficult place to heat but it sounds as if you are doing excellent with it. We too have the Fireview and are very impressed with the Progress. We may go with the shorter legs as the plinth just is not ready yet and we don't want to have to change the flue as ours goes horizontally through the wall. The short legs will allow us to set the stove with no major changes. I also like the fact that you are doing so much cooking on the stove. We do a lot of that ourselves with the Fireview and have with every stove we've owned. 

I will be interested in how much wood you use over the winter. Of course this year has been above normal for most places but perhaps not for you. Living by the lake I'm sure you get lots and lots of wind so the wood heat should really be a boon for you. It will be great if you can post pictures and if need be, I can help. I'll send you a PM.


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## fire_man (Jan 14, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> Thanks for the review. Sounds like you may be a candidate for the smaller secondary air plate, has Woodstock informed you of this plate?



I'm not sure if this alternate plate is "EPA approved" yet. I had a conversation with WS about this.

Great review of this stove! You hit on all of the major points that make this stove so great!

My only complaint is that darn smoke baffle plate, gets in the way of loading the top splits. I tried removing the plate, you do get more smoke in the house.


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## Nater (Jan 14, 2012)

3fordasho said:
			
		

> I've been waiting for the plinth base model.  Just received an email about the possibility of a short leg (5"?)version that will allow the progress to match the flue exit height of a fireview.   My install requires this as the flue in my current setup goes straight out the back of the fireview and through the wall.  They are apparantly evaluating each install of the short leg version and I need to send pics and dimensions of my hearth set up.   I am hoping it will work as the plinth base unit seems to be a couple months out yet.



I have been waiting for the plinth base model too.  I got the call last week about the short legs and will be picking up my progress next Friday.  I was planning on adding a hearth extension originally, but after they looked over my setup, I only need to add a few inches of ember protection around the loading door.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 15, 2012)

Here are the pictures.


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## Flatbedford (Jan 15, 2012)

I really have to upgrade to the PH. We love our Fireview, but the house needs the extra oomph of the PH.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 15, 2012)

What are you waiting for Steve? Sometimes it is not good to wait. After all, I recall waiting on the shore for my ship to come in and a month later I found out it had came to the airport.


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## Flatbedford (Jan 15, 2012)

I'm waiting for the cash to show up! As much as the PH will work better for us, I am not convinced that I'll get much return on the investment. When we bought the Fireview in '09 the improvement over the old smoke dragon was so huge that the money we saved on propane paid for the Fireview about a month into the second season we used it. I don't see the PH paying for itself. It may burn a little less free wood, it would be more convenient to have the longer been times and possibly make the house more comfortable, but a single source of heat still won't keep the far end of the house warmer so the furnace will still have to run from time to time. I just can't justify the investment at this time. I'd be better off spending the money on some air sealing and better insulation in the far (cold) end of the house.


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## HotCoals (Jan 15, 2012)

Sounds reasonable to me Steve.
Insulation goesa  long ways in saving money or wood...at the least be warmer.


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## fire_man (Jan 15, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> I'm waiting for the cash to show up! As much as the PH will work better for us, I am not convinced that I'll get much return on the investment. When we bought the Fireview in '09 the improvement over the old smoke dragon was so huge that the money we saved on propane paid for the Fireview about a month into the second season we used it. I don't see the PH paying for itself. It may burn a little less free wood, it would be more convenient to have the longer been times and possibly make the house more comfortable, but a single source of heat still won't keep the far end of the house warmer so the furnace will still have to run from time to time. *I just can't justify the investment at this time. I'd be better off spending the money on some air sealing and better insulation in the far (cold) end of the house.*



That was my original thinking, too. Two years ago, I had insulation blown into the attic, I replaced nearly every window in the house, and had air sealing done in the attic and basement. It helped marginally, but this  year we bought the Progress and NOW it's finally warm in here! Its presently 10 F outside, stove room is 71 degrees. The FV would be struggling right now. The far end of the house is cooler than the stoveroom, but that's the price to pay with a woodstove.

The other benefit, more of a convenience factor, is I can sleep through those cold nights  and not have to feed the stove at 3 am.


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## Todd (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm waiting for them to either install a t-stat or figure a way to control the secondary air a little more. Maybe they will have it all figured out by the next BBQ and I'll pick one up.


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## rideau (Jan 16, 2012)

Woodstock had some suggestions that they think will control the secondaries...simple changes in the way I use my damper and combuster..different than the way one usualy does.  If they work, I'll post the suggestions here.  Am away from home right now.  Can't wait to get back to -25 degrees, my stove and a foot of snow. 
 If Woodstock's suggestions  don't work, I'm going to get a section of double wall excel stovepipe with built in damper to give me more control over air in the stove.  Woodstock did confirm my son's recommendation of a stovepipe damper.  I'm actually not certain it isn't a good idea for anyone who doesn't have a problem getting enough draft to get a stovepipe damper.  Aside from giving more control over air in the stove, it would be a great safety factor in the event of a runaway fire, since one cannot shut off the air supply to a Progress Hybrid.   
Generally this stove is incredibly easy to start, and throws a huge amount of heat on a half load of wood, while maintaining a nice safe steady stovetop temperature in the 400 degee range for many hours.  It produces much more and steadier heat tan a Fireview, at least in my installation.  But my draft is huge....the chimney whistles. I have a few movies of one of my first fires and you can clearly hear the whistle.  I'll try to post the movies, which cover the first twenty minutes of a fire started 2/1/2 days after I got the stove, detailing time from lighting from ash only and stovetop temperature changes.  It's pretty impressive, especially since this is a brand new stove that has its own learning curve, and I did lots of things in a less than ideal way...I'll probably try to post them to Microsoft's skydrive, (I think -hope-I can post movies as well as photos to this site) so if anyone wants to see then they can PM me their e-mail address and I can give them access to the movies once I post them.  You can view them without having to download them.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 17, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> I'm waiting for them to either install a t-stat or figure a way to control the secondary air a little more. Maybe they will have it all figured out by the next BBQ and I'll pick one up.



It's close.


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## 3fordasho (Jan 18, 2012)

My progress hybrid is shipping end of next week or so.  I originally ordered the plinth base model just to match the flue exit height of the Fireview, instead I will be getting the standard model with 5" shorter legs.   Not sure how the look will be with the short legs, but I am pumped to be getting the stove.  I am thinking the stove will be easier to move into place with legs vs the plinth base.


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## muscamoot (Jan 18, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting.  Keep us informed.


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## wood4free (Jan 18, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do you mean the TStat is close? I talked to someone at Woodstock several weeks ago and at that time it did not seem like a priority. I really want to see a Tstat added before I get my Progress later this year.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes, they are working hard on it now. Hopefully we'll see more on it very soon.


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## Woodrow (Jan 18, 2012)

Great thread! I've been researching the Progress and it looks like a great stove. And unlike the BK's I really like the way it looks too. One question though: why does the Progress not have a fully functioning air control valve? Your comments about the vague possibility of a runaway fire is a bit "alarming." I'd like an air valve that can be shut to zero if need be. Why wouldn't they build this stove with the ability to choke it off in an emergency?


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 18, 2012)

3fordasho said:
			
		

> My progress hybrid is shipping end of next week or so.  I originally ordered the plinth base model just to match the flue exit height of the Fireview, instead I will be getting the standard model with 5" shorter legs.   Not sure how the look will be with the short legs, but I am pumped to be getting the stove.  I am thinking the stove will be easier to move into place with legs vs the plinth base.



I too would appreciate a picture of that stove with the short legs and think it will be quite nice. Ours will have the same but we've moved the shipping date back a bit.


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## fire_man (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm still trying to figure out why the Progress draft cannot be shut to near zero, similar to their other cat stoves. The whole idea of the cat is to be able to snuff down the draft because the cat will take over and burn the smoke. So why are those secondary plates always open a little????


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## Todd (Jan 19, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> I'm still trying to figure out why the Progress draft cannot be shut to near zero, similar to their other cat stoves. The whole idea of the cat is to be able to snuff down the draft because the cat will take over and burn the smoke. So why are those secondary plates always open a little????



My guess is the same secondary air that supplies the baffle supplies the cat so it has to be open a bit to pass EPA test. If the fire box is hot enough the baffle lights off and burns up the smoke and gas, if not the cat takes over? I'm thinking most of the time the fire box will be hot enough to kick in the baffle system. I wish there was a way to flip a switch and burn it either way or all together, ala t-stat switch.


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## fire_man (Jan 19, 2012)

But why does the plate have to have such a wide opening at zero draft setting if smoke gets cleaned up by the cat??? I thought that with the cat, you should be able to require extremely low draft and still burn clean. BK does it, FV does it. I am tempted to call WS and ask what happens if you plug the slots in that secondary plate. I'm not complaining, I get easy 12 hr burns, but I think with a little tweaking this Progress could burn on low as well as the famed BLAZE KING!


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## Waulie (Jan 19, 2012)

The cat needs air or it can't burn the smoke.  As far as I can tell, no one burns the BK or FV with the draft completetly closed.  I guess the question is how can the other cat stoves get EPA approval with draft controls that close more than you could ever use in real life, but the Progress couldn't?


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## Todd (Jan 19, 2012)

They won't be able to tell you to block that air off because it probably hasn't been tested and approved that way.Just like when I asked about removing the ash pan for my Keystone. I know I'd be tempted to try it, prolly plug the baffle and run it like a cat stove.


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## fire_man (Jan 19, 2012)

Waulie said:
			
		

> The cat needs air or it can't burn the smoke.  As far as I can tell, no one burns the BK or FV with the draft completetly closed.  *I guess the question is how can the other cat stoves get EPA approval with draft controls that close more than you could ever use in real life, but the Progress couldn't?*



Yup that's my question


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## WarmInIowa (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm glad to hear of your experience, great post.  Thank you for sharing.  I am basically in the same situation, same size house with lots of windows facing the north due to a view.  I will be doing the same thing, replacing the fireview with the Progress Hybrid.  I hope I have the same results.  One of my limitations is that I don't have the greatest draft, and my pipe exits the house straight out the back, so I hope that doesn't cause me any issues with the new stove.


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## HotCoals (Jan 21, 2012)

Waulie said:
			
		

> The cat needs air or it can't burn the smoke.  As far as I can tell, no one burns the BK or FV with the draft completetly closed.  I guess the question is how can the other cat stoves get EPA approval with draft controls that close more than you could ever use in real life, but the Progress couldn't?


On the BK you can close the intake(t-stat) all the way down..but below the flapper there is a plate with a hole in it that feeds the stove a minimum amount of air by by-passing the flapper.
BK as far as I can tell BK got that hole the right size for most apps.
When the t-stat is open the fire box gets air from those tubes up the sides..when it's closed the box gets air from the bottom ,from that little hole.
Kinda hard for me to explain.


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## Backwoods Savage (Jan 21, 2012)

WarmInIowa said:
			
		

> I'm glad to hear of your experience, great post.  Thank you for sharing.  I am basically in the same situation, same size house with lots of windows facing the north due to a view.  I will be doing the same thing, replacing the fireview with the Progress Hybrid.  I hope I have the same results.  One of my limitations is that I don't have the greatest draft, and my pipe exits the house straight out the back, so I hope that doesn't cause me any issues with the new stove.



I see no problem with exiting out the back. So long as the Fireview worked with this setup the Progress should do the same. btw, ours is the same, horizontal through the wall then up the side of the house. We have no problems with it.


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## rideau (Jan 22, 2012)

The Progress Hybrid has a nozzle below the window that introduces air all the time.

Woodstock told me to load the stove (assumes I have at least hot embers). immediately engage the catalytic combuster and completely close the damper.  They thought I would have a completely dark stove for about half an hour to 45 minutes, then I would have a long slow catalytic burn.  Guess what? It works.  Should work for anyone with a really good draft who has been having trouble keeping the secondary system from taking over from the cat.  

Of course I tried this when it was 5 F out..not the greatest time for a long slow cat burn if one is returning to a home after two weeks absence...

I did ask about the issue of creosote formation in the chimney, fouling the converter because of low temp/moisture, etc.  They told me not to worry, those things would not be a problem, try it...and it really works.  Good to know for milder weather.  

To answer another question...this stove ignites almost before I close the door if there are any coals.  Just the same wood I have always used, and the Fireview did not light anywhere nearly as quickly or easily as this stove does.  

Just roasted a roast beef from frozen in 2 1/2 hours in a small heavy magnalite roasting pan.  This stove if great for cooking.


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## Todd (Jan 22, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> The Progress Hybrid has a nozzle below the window that introduces air all the time.
> 
> Woodstock told me to load the stove (assumes I have at least hot embers). immediately engage the catalytic combuster and completely close the damper.  They thought I would have a completely dark stove for about half an hour to 45 minutes, then I would have a long slow catalytic burn.  Guess what? It works.  Should work for anyone with a really good draft who has been having trouble keeping the secondary system from taking over from the cat.
> 
> ...



Did you check your chimney for smoke when you tried this technique? Seems like you could have a smoking stack for quite some time til the cat gets going? I don't think this is a good fix, I'm betting when people do this there will be many stalls and clogged cats. Hopefully Woodstock will fix this problem soon.


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## rdust (Jan 22, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> I'm still trying to figure out why the Progress draft cannot be shut to near zero, similar to their other cat stoves. The whole idea of the cat is to be able to snuff down the draft because the cat will take over and burn the smoke. So why are those secondary plates always open a little????




Could it be anything to do with the sizing of the cat?  I don't know anything about building or designing a stove, maybe the cat placement/size isn't perfect for the slow/low burn without the secondary baffle helping out a little.  

Someone should make some modifications to the secondary air supply to see if the stove can burn smoke free and produce enough heat without the secondary baffle working.


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## fire_man (Jan 22, 2012)

> Someone should make some modifications to the secondary air supply to see if the stove can burn smoke free and produce enough heat without the secondary baffle working.



I like your thinking, Rdust. Sounds like a plan I may try out sometime. 

Rideau had some great feedback from WS. I always thought it was bad to stall the cat for too long, but it sounds like that at least with the SS cat, it's ok. I'm gonna have to learn more about that - load it up and instantly put it into smolder mode.


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## sappy (Jan 22, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> I'm waiting for the cash to show up! As much as the PH will work better for us, I am not convinced that I'll get much return on the investment. When we bought the Fireview in '09 the improvement over the old smoke dragon was so huge that the money we saved on propane paid for the Fireview about a month into the second season we used it. I don't see the PH paying for itself. It may burn a little less free wood, it would be more convenient to have the longer been times and possibly make the house more comfortable, but a single source of heat still won't keep the far end of the house warmer so the furnace will still have to run from time to time. I just can't justify the investment at this time. I'd be better off spending the money on some air sealing and better insulation in the far (cold) end of the house.


Steve, I am in the same boat as Yourself. This is my first year with the Fireview. It works well and 70 to 80percent of winter days it completly heats this 80 foot long ranch, Propane is set on far end when it is below zero as has recently been. When time and money is available be could do better with some more insulation and taking out a none caring wall next room up which will move stuff along. It is enticing as I live very close to Woostock plant and have recently watching many coworkers and such move from fireview to progress as well. My room that stove sets in is 22 long by 12 wide so progress I feel would be too much there anyways.


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## wood4free (Jan 24, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Yes, they are working hard on it now. Hopefully we'll see more on it very soon.




Where did you hear Woodstock was hard at work on a TStat for the Progress? I spoke to a rep yesterday and he said any TStat was many months away and could not even provide a timeline if in fact it even happens.


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## rideau (Jan 28, 2012)

My cat stopped working completely.  We were in the middle of an ice storm so I wasn't sure if my poor stove performance was because of atmospheric conditions.  The one benefit of an ice storm is that it isn't very cold out.  I let my stove cool to 120 degree surface temp, then checked my screen...completely blocked.  After reading other threads, I was leary about attempts to clean this screen.  I got my trusty natural bristle paint brush that I use to brush parts of the stove, including window.  I very gently, tentatively  brushed the screen, but found that a few bristles caught.  Concerned about knocking the screen out of place, I switched to taking the point of the handle and very gently tapping.  Nothing happened.  So I gently scraped a portion of the screen with the tip.  The operative word is GENTLY.  I checked that area, and sure enough the screen was clean.  SO I gently scraped the entire screen, frequently checking for missed areas with the flashlight.  It cleaned easily...about 5 minutes all told.  Now I am going to start a fire.  However, I'm wondering if the technique of loading the stove and immediately engaging the combuster caused this to happen.  It did happen after I started this technique, but that may have been coincidence.  I'll experiment and post my results.  
I loaded the stove immediately before starting this post.  Just put in a 8 inch ironwood log and a large maple split, to a stove that had a surface temp of 120, had had the door open for about ten minutes, and had only a few coals in the bottom.  The only "kindling" I used was a 1 inch wide piece of birchnark.  The stove started blazing away just after I typed "Now I am going to start a fire."  With the screen clean, this stove starts like a breeze. 
I continue to be very happy with the stove...just have to learn its ways.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 28, 2012)

Waulie said:
			
		

> The cat needs air or it can't burn the smoke.  As far as I can tell, no one burns the BK or FV with the draft completetly closed.  I guess the question is how can the other cat stoves get EPA approval with draft controls that close more than you could ever use in real life, but the Progress couldn't?


I burn the FV a fair bit with the air all the way closed. That's a "low cat burn" for me. I've just got a 17' stack so the draft isn't exceptionally high either...



			
				rideau said:
			
		

> My cat stopped working completely...I let my stove cool to 120 degree surface temp, then checked my screen...completely blocked...I'm wondering if the technique of loading the stove and immediately engaging the combuster caused this to happen...The stove started blazing away just after I typed "Now I am going to start a fire."  With the screen clean, this stove starts like a breeze.
> I continue to be very happy with the stove...just have to learn its ways.


I'm still trying to find the sweet spot with the FV, where I can get enough heat to light off the combustor but not get too much of the load out-gassing to where the cat can't burn it all (or in your case, where the secondaries take over.) It ain't easy but I guess that's the price we pay for having the option of the long cat burn. And then there are other variables like the dryness of the fuel, split size, etc. Sheesh, this is turning into rocket science. :lol:


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## rideau (Feb 3, 2012)

3 am three days ago I decided I really needed to more thoroughly clean the iconal screen.  It dislodged slightly, and mindful of others' experience with the screen becoming difficult to get out, I lowered it into the fire box, removed it from the stove and thoroughly cleaned it.  I found it had some stubborn crusty material on the screen itself as opposed to only having the holes obstructed, so took a fine silk pin and pried this encrustation off, as I suspected leaving it would result in quicker subsequent build up.   I cleaned the screen thoroughly with a fine natural bristle rounded sash paint brush, then, at 5;30 Am realized I didn't have a clue how Woodstock suggested replacing the screen.  There were no instructions in the PH manual, so I proceeded to clean the ashes out of the stove while I waited for Woodstock to open...house getting chilly.  Spoke to Penny at 9AM, who promptly e-mailed me clear, well-illustrated instructions for reinstallation.  I asked her incidentally whether she had ever tried to replace one of these screens.  She had not.  I indicated I felt the iconal screen was an issue with which they needed to deal, and she let me know they realized that.  
After a dozen or so attempts at installing the screen as indiciated, and having had no success whatsoever in getting the screen to budge when trying to slide one piece over the other, I installed them subsequently instead of simultaneously.  First screen snapped into place, second just sort of sat there.  I couldn't get it into place.  Called Woodstock, got Jamie, asked is I could burn with the screen as is...told fine as long as it wasn't moving.  
Proceeded to build the  fire  in my stove...16 inch wood because it was already cut for my Fireview, maple and ironwood, box about 60% full, a small strip of birchbark  a few match stick thick twigs and a 1/2 inch short twig/branch.  Lit the birchbark at 10 AM, the fire was blazing within five minutes.  Took under 15 minutes with damper 2/3 closed to achieve temperature to permit engaging the cat.  Got a 10 hour burn.  Reloaded at 8 PM, stove 80% full of 16 inch lengths, so about 65% full by volume (my biggest fire yet), and fire had ignited from coals before I closed the door.  I got a 16 hour burn...my first 16 hour burn.  Called Woodstock to report this (they deserve good feedback as well as queries), got Penny, who had gone to the shop and tried installing the screen subsequent to our conversation and had a further suggestion from the engineers there, which I shall try next time I clean and re-install the screen.  
Call Woodstock with any questions about the operation of their stoves...they are not only very helpful, but need the feedback to address and improve any nagging details.  I have been informed more than once by them that any improvements they make will be retrofitted to all our stoves.  
Was told that they are working on a way to prevent the screen from dislodging while cleaning.  The screen has the tiny holes to keep more fly ash out of the cat because the SS cat has smaller honeycombs than the ceramic and is more prone to fly ash accumulation.  I have a suspicion that my substantial draft probably pulls more fly ash up into the screen/cat.  My few, never to be repeated, "whooshes" with newspaper probably didn't help.  I did pull the cat while cleaning the screen, although it looked clear.  The distal side was completely --every hole- blocked by white ash.  I gently tapped the cat on a piece of newspaper placed o the hearth, and all the ash fell out.  Brushed both sides with my paint brush, but nothing came out with that.  All was clear.  Reinstalled the cat, brushed the interior of the upper part of the stove, vacuumed out the tiny pile of white ash.  I'll check the cat again one morning in a few weeks, but  suspect in my setting it may require cleaning every month or so of 24/7 burning.  Not a very burdensome task in this stove, do-able with no trouble when the stovetop is a 120 degrees as long as you brush or tap and don't vacuum the cat.   
By the way, after my 16 hour burn, I had light gray ash and about a gallon in volume of coals,stovetop temp of 180 degrees.  Loaded stove, fire lit immediately.  Have not loaded the stove as full subsequently, because at the moment 12 hour fires are more convenient for me.  I have consistently gotten 12 hour fires, am managing to get cat fires, have gray ash and a few coals left at the end of the burn.  I've burned a little over a cord of good dry ironwood and maple so far this winter.  
I'm very happy with this stove.  My house is comfortable. The stove is a handsome addition to the living room.


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## Waulie (Feb 3, 2012)

Your experience with the screen is very similiar to mine.  Some have had a simple time replacing it, and others not at all.  Since there is nothing to keep the shape of the screen, I think it is subject to distorting.  Even a little distortion, and it isn't going to fit "properly".  Unfortunately, you can't thoroughly clean it without removing it so you're kind of stuck trying to get it back in.  Good to hear WS is aware of screen issue and I have no doubt they'll fix it up.

My biggest concern is having to let the stove go cool to clean it.  If it is once or twice a season, that's fine.  If it turns out to be once a month, I'll be annoyed.


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## Todd (Feb 3, 2012)

I bet it is the lower cat burns that clog up that screen faster. The new s/s scoops in the old stoves are probably the same thing as this PH screen and I have noticed mine plug up with soot/ash quicker burning low and slow, sometimes in a couple weeks. I was told this screen was recommended by the cat manufacture. I suppose If they went with a larger sized screen the cat would get more build up which is what I see when swapping out new scoop for old scoop. 

Woodstock will probably figure out a more user friendly way to clean this out. Hopefully it won't have to be done so often. Maybe the ceramic cats would be better and you could use a larger screen? I'm still not convinced that the steel cat is better than the ceramic cat, mine is showing signs of degradation and it's only a year old and I also heard from people in the cat industry that the ceramic burns hotter for longer.


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## Waulie (Feb 3, 2012)

That's interesting, Todd. Since cleaning the screen is such a pain and cleaning the cat is so simple, it crossed my mind to just go screen-less and clean the cat like once a week (it takes 2 minutes). I might try it. I think the small mesh size probably acts like a bit of a damper so it could increase draft a bit.

I still don't understand why a low burn would increase build up on the screen? Someone pointed out it might cause creosote to build up there doing a low burn which then gets burned to ash when burned hotter. That sort of makes sense, except I can't see why creosote would accumulate on the screen but not the cat since it is caused from gases condensing.


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## rideau (Feb 3, 2012)

Several people have commented about a problem with smoke - mostly smelling smoke.  Recently I felt there was too much of a smoke smell, but others here told me they didn't agree.  Seemed to me like much more than the Fireview and I didn't like it.  But couldn't find a source of smoke.  Just realized I have not smelled ANY smoke since cleaning my screen and cat.  May be as simple as a smell of smoke tells us to clean everything.


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## HollowHill (Feb 5, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> Several people have commented about a problem with smoke - mostly smelling smoke.  Recently I felt there was too much of a smoke smell, but others here told me they didn't agree.  Seemed to me like much more than the Fireview and I didn't like it.  But couldn't find a source of smoke.  Just realized I have not smelled ANY smoke since cleaning my screen and cat.  May be as simple as a smell of smoke tells us to clean everything.



You may well be onto something there, rideau.  I have been having the smoke smell, then I was getting smoke spillage on loads, having trouble getting the cat to fire off and stay lit, finally dawned on my pea brain that maybe the cat needed cleaning (even tho it had only been about 3 weeks since the last clean, and that one revealed only very minor buildup).  The screen didn't look bad, but I thought I should check the cat.  I was appalled when I did!  It was almost completely encrusted with buildup, like a layer of ice covering the whole cat  No wonder everything seemed sluggish!  Performing much better now.  Not sure what led to the buildup so quickly.  I didn't have an appliance adapter installed to connect the double wall pipe to the stove, so maybe that contributed?  Don't know, but I'm sure going to pay attention to the signs more.  Thanks to all the Progress owners who are posting about these signs, it's really helping me and shortening my learning curve.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm beginning to think that engaging that cat so soon will be a problem. Why would this stove be different on engaging the cat than the other stoves? I also do not understand why some folks do not want the secondaries firing off. Is this not how the stove was designed? Secondaries AND a cat.


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## Waulie (Feb 5, 2012)

When those secondaries get cranking, you are getting a TON of heat.  That's why folks are trying to burn with the cat and not the secondaries in this warmer weather.  I'm just doing about half loads, not getting the secondaries, and still getting 8 to 10 hour burns.  I can load a bit over 60% full without getting the crazy secondaries and get close to 12 hour burns.  When I fill it up, I get a ton of heat that also easily lasts for 12 hours.  It just needs to be cold to fill it up!


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 5, 2012)

I think back to the Woodstock Open House when they had a Progress burning. Yes, it threw some good heat but I did not think so much that it would roast you out of the house. Of course they did not put that much wood in the stove at one time either. I say if the cat gives problems, this is the reason why by trying to get an all cat burn.


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## rdust (Feb 5, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to think that engaging that cat so soon will be a problem. Why would this stove be different on engaging the cat than the other stoves? I also do not understand why some folks do not want the secondaries firing off. Is this not how the stove was designed? Secondaries AND a cat.



I think your thinking is correct by engaging the cat too soon they're causing issues.  When I had my secondary tube stove once the secondaries started going there wasn't much stopping them for a couple hours and it puts out a TON of heat.  This is the reason I bought a cat stove I got tired of being in a room that was pushing 80 degrees all the time.   

The reason people love the cat stoves is the low burn capability in the warmer type weather and we've had a bunch of that this season.  People who like secondary burn type stoves don't like cat stoves due to the extra "maintenance and cost" we hear it all the time.  People who like cat stoves don't like tube stoves due to the amount of hard to control heat they put out along with the unregulated secondary air.  Seems this stove has put together the things both sides of the cat/non cat folks dislike!  :lol:  

I had really hoped once the cat was engage and the air was turned down the secondary air would get closed off and it would allow a normal low cat burn.  As Todd has said before it looks like we have a tube style stove(with a baffle of course) with a cat to clean up what the secondary combustion misses.  I'm sure it makes it one of the cleanest burning stoves on the planet but not what I had hoped for.  From what I've read I do think it has better control than a lot of the non cats on the market though.


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## wood4free (Feb 5, 2012)

rdust said:
			
		

> The reason people love the cat stoves is the low burn capability in the warmer type weather and we've had a bunch of that this season.  People who like secondary burn type stoves don't like cat stoves due to the extra "maintenance and cost" we hear it all the time.  People who like cat stoves don't like tube stoves due to the amount of hard to control heat they put out along with the unregulated secondary air.  Seems this stove has put together the things both sides of the cat/non cat folks dislike!  :lol:
> 
> I had really hoped once the cat was engage and the air was turned down the secondary air would get closed off and it would allow a normal low cat burn.  As Todd has said before it looks like we have a tube style stove(with a baffle of course) with a cat to clean up what the secondary combustion misses.  I'm sure it makes it one of the cleanest burning stoves on the planet but not what I had hoped for.  From what I've read I do think it has better control than a lot of the non cats on the market though.


 
I'm beginning to wonder if this stove would have been better if Woodstock had just decided to build a larger stove with just a cat instead of trying to combine the two technologies.


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## rdust (Feb 5, 2012)

wood4free said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to wonder if this stove would have been better if Woodstock had just decided to build a larger stove with just a cat instead of trying to combine the two technologies.



I'm not sure I would say that, I think the stove performs great from what we've heard, just not like a cat stove dialed down low.  People are reporting 12-14 hours plus easy out of this stove so it must burn lower than a lot of non cats cause not many non cats with a 2.7 cubic foot stove burn in that range very easily.


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## Waulie (Feb 5, 2012)

I keep saying it, but I'll say it again:

The Progress is basically two stoves.  If you fill it up, you have the most efficient secondary stove ever produced which will throw enough heat to heat a barn.  I you fill it 60% or so, you have a cat stove about the size and with the approximate performance of a Keystone.  Fill it in between, and you get in between performance.  It is not a cat stove and it is not a secondary stove.  Here are some of my approximate results.

50% full:  Stove top peaks at 400 to 450, after 8 hours stove top at 250.
60% full:  Stove peaks around 450+, after 10 hours stove top at 250, after 12 hours stove top at 200.
80% full:  Jet-like secondaries take over, stove peaks at 550+ (depending on air setting), stove top after 12 hours at 250.
That's about as full as I've had it.

It is not a BK, but what's not to love?


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## Waulie (Feb 5, 2012)

> Yes, it threw some good heat but I did not think so much that it would roast you out of the house.



Dennis, this obviously depends on the house and the weather, but in my house and these temps those secondaries would certainly roast us right out!


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## Huntindog1 (Feb 6, 2012)

I find this stove interesting as I am not sure what the designers wanted from this stove. Its easier to think of this stove as a marketing idea.

I at first thought when hearing of this stove that the secondaries somehow improved the cat operation but a second thought about it I realized that wasnt going to happen as they work at 2 different temps.

But it was said above that it throws a ton of heat in the secondary mode , is that because the cat is also generating some heat from what little is left from the secondary burn which we all know secondary burn isnt perfect it still leaves some stuff to clean up by the cat.


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## wood4free (Feb 6, 2012)

Waulie said:
			
		

> I keep saying it, but I'll say it again:
> 
> The Progress is basically two stoves.  If you fill it up, you have the most efficient secondary stove ever produced which will throw enough heat to heat a barn.  I you fill it 60% or so, you have a cat stove about the size and with the approximate performance of a Keystone.  Fill it in between, and you get in between performance.  It is not a cat stove and it is not a secondary stove.  Here are some of my approximate results.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the detail Waulie. I did not expect the Progress to be a Blaze King but with an advertised 16 hour burn time (I understand Woodstock to be very conservative with their figures) it is 80% of the BK Princess 20 hour advertised burn time. So it definitely approaches Blaze King performance although it is anyone's guess which is a better heater. My primary concern is being able to control the burn during the shoulder season. If Waulie's experience is indicative it appears it will be necessary to avoid filling up the stove during that time period.


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## rideau (Feb 11, 2012)

The PH is definitely an order of magnitude better than a cat only stove.  It tests 87% efficient, versus Cats at about 72 %, and my experience with this stove definitely bears out that test result.  I am sure a lot of the efficiency is gained from the combined secondary burning methods, but that is not the whole story.  I definitely get significantly more heat from less wood with this stove over the Fireview even when I have a long 16 hour straight cat burn.  I am not sure how thay have achieved this; but I do get very complete clean combustion with hardly any ash left at the end of the cycle.  I also find stove temperatures remain high and steady for a much longer time than in the Fireview...a really long time.  When the stove does start to cool down I feel the difference in the air NEAR the stove immediately. but overall home temps remain remarkably steady, even with a 16 hour slow burn.  I only have 16 inch wood seasoned, as I cut it for my Fireview, so have not challenged this stove yet.  

This stove is no marketing tool, and definitely represents a significant advance in wood burning, in my opinion.


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2012)

Good info rideau. There's a lot of engineering that has gone into this stove to make it work well. I don't see this as a marketing idea either. Instead I think both VC and Woodstock have tried to address the multitude of burning conditions that a stove faces. The goal is to keep emissions down under all these conditions while still providing a predictable and pleasurable burning experience. Cat burning is great for shoulder season burning with low to moderate fires, but not so relevant for large, hot fires. This is where secondary burning can be more efficient. The net result of the hybrid is a more efficient and cleaner burning stove over the wide range of burning scenarios. It's quite a feat to pull this off well.


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## ddddddden (Feb 11, 2012)

72% is a generic number used by the EPA.  Test results for the Fireview: www.woodstove.com/2011-10-tax-credit


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## WarmInIowa (Feb 12, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> The PH is definitely an order of magnitude better than a cat only stove.  It tests 87% efficient, versus Cats at about 72 %, and my experience with this stove definitely bears out that test result.  I am sure a lot of the efficiency is gained from the combined secondary burning methods, but that is not the whole story.  I definitely get significantly more heat from less wood with this stove over the Fireview even when I have a long 16 hour straight cat burn.  I am not sure how thay have achieved this; but I do get very complete clean combustion with hardly any ash left at the end of the cycle.  I also find stove temperatures remain high and steady for a much longer time than in the Fireview...a really long time.  When the stove does start to cool down I feel the difference in the air NEAR the stove immediately. but overall home temps remain remarkably steady, even with a 16 hour slow burn.  I only have 16 inch wood seasoned, as I cut it for my Fireview, so have not challenged this stove yet.
> 
> This stove is no marketing tool, and definitely represents a significant advance in wood burning, in my opinion.



My experience is the same.  I second what you have said above.


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## rideau (Feb 12, 2012)

Thanks very much for your post.

I had never seen those figures on the Fireview before.  I'm surprised at them.  Woodstock seems to indicate the PH is more efficeint than the other stoves because it combines the techniques, optimizing burn opportunity; but the HHV is listed slightly higher on the PH, the LHV slightly higher on the Fireview, which is amazing to me, having experienced both stoves.  I loved the Fireview, but there is no question I am getting more heat from the PH when burning the same amount of wood...significantly more.  Also get less ash at the end of a burn.  Don't know how that can be anything other than higher efficiency.  PH goes into cat mode much more quickly than Fireview, which should result in increased efficiency.    Also get a longer burn with a more steady temperature when in cat.  My Fireview often burned with a higher stovetop temp than the PH in the early stages of the burn, but (a) less heat came out the (much smaller) window) and (b) the stovetop temperature fell more quickly with the Fireview.  Wonder whether tests have been done of the cat burn only efficiency vs non-cat or combined on the PH.    It is definitely possible to get a 16 hour burn which is pretty darn close to all cat.  This stove can handle bigger loads than the Fireview, though I seldom fill the firebox more than 60% full of 16 inch seasoned wood cut for the Fireview;  and it can burn wood quickly, putting out a tremendous amount of heat, when I ask it to by opening the damper a bit.  In that situation I don't get anywhere near a 16 hour burn (8 to 12 hour depending on amount of air fed the fire).  Perhaps when one burns at this greater rate although one gets greater heat output one slightly reduces efficiency...maybe more heat goes up the chimney?  Overall, I find a long cat burn with the PH keeps my home comfortable even in quite cold weather, which the Fireview did not do.  This summer when Woodstock is less busy, I will ask Woodstock some questios about the relative and absolute efficiencies of the stoves.    
Again, thanks for your post.


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## ddddddden (Feb 12, 2012)

No doubt that the PH throws more heat, but it's probably due to better heat transfer(more surface area, larger glass, heat exchanger in the flue) rather than combustion efficiency.         www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/697558/


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## fire_man (Feb 12, 2012)

Den said:
			
		

> No doubt that the PH throws more heat, but it's probably due to better heat transfer(more surface area, larger glass, heat exchanger in the flue) rather than combustion efficiency.         www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/697558/



I think a HUGE part of the FV vs PH difference is the basic stove construction: FV has soapstone panels separated by a layer of air, PH is a steel box encased in soapstone. I always felt the FV airgap reduced the heat transfer capabilities. It took MUCH longer with the FV to get the room temps to climb. With the progress, room temps start to climb as soon as the fire gets going. Some of it is the bigger glass area, but the entire stove heats up much faster.

 I totally agree that with even less wood, the Progress heats better than the FV.


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## rideau (Feb 16, 2012)

My stovetop cracked pretty badly...about 6 inch or so through and through crack from front left point going back at about a 45 degree anlge.  Smoke stains around crack.  I had a piece of soapstone on top of the stovetop, so did not know about the crack until I took the supplemental piece of soapstone off immediately prior to lifting the top for cleaning.  Woodstock has mailed me a new top, at my request to my NY home which is not where I have the stove, and I have burned with the covering piece of soapstone while awaiting the new top.  I see on the ss cat thread that the new tops are all three pieces.  I hope the replacement I have received is one piece...I think the one piece is beautiful, but I can attest that the large piece can be a problem.  This is vey early for the soapstone to crack.  Mine had no shock, thermal or mechanical.  I imagine a three piece top will be a pain when cleaning the cat, which one has to do relatively frequently on this stove.  If my new top (free replacement so I can't complain) is three piece, I will get Woodstock to watch for a really nice piece of soapstone during their off season and pay for a new one piece top.  I'd love a photo posted from anyone who has a thee piece top.  Is it in a frame that lifts as a unit and rests in the stove for cleaning, or is it three separate pieces that have to be removed?  I guess it must be in a frame to prevent smoke leakage....so maybe cleaning isn't a problem?  If a frame, is it raised?  If the top isn't smooth all the way acrosss and one only has 1/3 area for cooking, this stovetop won't be nearly as good for cooking.  The large top was great for cooking.  I do use the stove for cooking, and if my piece of soapstone top had an inherent defect, the weight of the material being cooked combined with the minimal support for the stone may have played a role in the early failure of my piece.  I do tend to keep a lot of soapstone slabs on top of the stove during the day for nighttime heating of beds.  I had asked Woodstock if the weight would be a problem for the top when I had the Fireview, and was told NO, but DID NOT ASK with relation to this top.  I think I'll give htem a call about this now....Anyone else had  a cracked top develop?


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## fire_man (Feb 16, 2012)

Rideau: 

Please keep us posted, I have many of your same questions regarding the configuration for the 3 piece top. I knew they were looking at making a change because it was hard to find defect free soapstone  panels suitable for use as a lid. Evidently it has to be carefully screened because of the temperatures involved, and it's not easy to get decent yield from the quarry.

It's neat the way you were able to cook on this stove (I read your ealier detailed posts), but now I would  be worried about the weight/stress issue.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 16, 2012)

The new 3 piece top will look very close to the original and for placing that other stone on top, you will be able to do it the same.


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## rideau (Feb 16, 2012)

Tony, I just spoke with Lorin.  She thinks my replacement top is one piece, but there won't be any more one piece tops, even special order, because the quarry has to pick out large slabs with lots of talc and was going deeper and deeper to find suitable stone...just too costly to try to find good stone for this purpose, and even some of what they thought was perfect wasn't good enough for this application.  The new top design, which will be retrofitted for anyone with an  original top that cracks, is a cast iron recessed top with three pieces of soapstone sitting in it,  The center one will have the PH tab, so can be lifted out with that.  Woodstock is designing a tool to help remove the other two slabs.  There is also a small retaining lip, so one can open the top with at least one slab in place...I'm not too clear on that.  But to clean the combuster, one will have to remove the slabs prior to opening the top.  One can remove one or more slabs for cooking directly on the cast iron, which will certianly give a different rate of transfer and different type of cooking than on the soapstone...hotter faster more like a conventional stovetop, and probably hotter absolutely.  One has the option of cooking directly on the soapstone still, and the soapstone will be level as it is on the PH, not have raised areas like on the Fireview.  They don't believe the weight of cooking has been nor will be  any issue on the original large stones.  They believe it is thermal expansion with the size of this slab that is causing the cracks.  Some people with the cracks have burned with the crack visable (I have always has mine covered, first because I didn't know it was there and had it covered for cooking, then to prevent smoke entry into the room...), and they have observed that the crack opens as the stove cools, and shuts as the stove heats up.  
On a separate front, as of today Woodstock is now using a loose piece of gasketing, which rolls out with the combuster as you remove it for cleaning, to tighten up the seal and prevent smoke leakage around the combuster during burning.  Apparently they have tortured their stove in their attemtps to stress  but have themselves experienced no problem with the cat, haven't run into the very real problems you and others have experienced.  But the SS cat does inherently expand and contract with heat far more than caramic.  So this new gasketing snugs everything.  I did ask Lorin if this new loose gasket would fall off when we remove the cats for cleaning and have the potential for falling somewhere and being hard to retrieve.  She didn't know, because this is really new, so walked back and looked for one to try, then came across Ron who was at that moment installing and removing  a cat to ckeck for just that issue and told her that it isn't a problem, it rolls right out on top of the cat.  Even though I have had no problem to date, I have asked them to send me a piece of the gasketing.  
They are exemplary in their responsiveness and courtesy toward their customers.  So nice to experience.


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## rideau (Feb 16, 2012)

Dennis, Thanks for your post.  I was typing my reply to Tony and didn't see your reply until after posting my update.


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## fire_man (Feb 16, 2012)

rideau:

Thanks for all the great info. That WS crew is right on top of all these issues. 

Your statement about the bigger slabs of soapstone being hard to get lines right up with what I heard a couple months ago. I'm sure  the ability to remove the soapstone panels and have just a cast iron shelf will make for some interesting and lively thread topics on the transfer rate of heat through soapstone  versus just the cast iron.


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## rideau (Feb 17, 2012)

Tony, I had though about that re firing off  temperature readings on top of the soapstone with the cast iron under it, and wondered a bit about what would happen to stove top temps as the stove cooled with cast iron under the soapstone...didn't think it through, just wondered for a fleeting moment.  Didn't occur to me to consider removing the soapstone to get faster heat radiation into the room.... Did wonder a few other things, so you are probably right:  we'll all have another subject to explore.


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## rideau (Mar 4, 2012)

What a perfect day.  Heading back out in a minute.  Can't bear to waste the day inside.  Just a quick update on the stove.  It continues to please me.  Easy to run, and heats very well.  Far more suited to actually heating the house than my Fireview.  I have not run into any problems with the cat, other than the early time it and the screen clogged.  Used a fan on the floor in the hall, about five feet from the stove room, pointing into the stove room, which gives the fan ability to draw air from the kitchen via the two-opposite-wall-door-bathroom under the stairs, as well as from the stairs at the south end of the hall (that stair has four steps up from the kitchen on one side and the hall on the other side to a landing with windows, before stair turns and goes to second floor, so there is good airflow).  Have never used a fan before to spread heat.  It does keep the temperatures on the first floor much more even.  Ranged from 68 in kitchen to 74 in stove room.  Without the fan I was running about four degreen cooler in the kitchen with the 60 MPH winds from the south yesterday.  The one thing I have not been able to do is get this stove  (stovetop, I don't have an IR gun) over about 520.  I have to admit I have not killed myself trying to do so...but it doesn't seem to want to get hotter.  I do have active secondaries, and plenty of heat, so I'm not worried.  But I am curious about what heat output would be if the stovetop was 600.  I'm burning very good, dry wood.  Same as I've always used.  No issue with it's performance.  Same wood in Fireview would easily run into a VERY hot fire if I left damper open by mistake.  This does not happen with this stove...maybe it would if I left damper all the way open for a really long time, but certainly doesn't in the twenty minutes max I have left it fully open with a fresh load.  So, I consider this stove very safe.  Anyone care to share what they have done to get their stove up to 600 or so?


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## HollowHill (Mar 4, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> What a perfect day.  Heading back out in a minute.  Can't bear to waste the day inside.  Just a quick update on the stove.  It continues to please me.  Easy to run, and heats very well.  Far more suited to actually heating the house than my Fireview.  I have not run into any problems with the cat, other than the early time it and the screen clogged.  Used a fan on the floor in the hall, about five feet from the stove room, pointing into the stove room, which gives the fan ability to draw air from the kitchen via the two-opposite-wall-door-bathroom under the stairs, as well as from the stairs at the south end of the hall (that stair has four steps up from the kitchen on one side and the hall on the other side to a landing with windows, before stair turns and goes to second floor, so there is good airflow).  Have never used a fan before to spread heat.  It does keep the temperatures on the first floor much more even.  Ranged from 68 in kitchen to 74 in stove room.  Without the fan I was running about four degreen cooler in the kitchen with the 60 MPH winds from the south yesterday.  The one thing I have not been able to do is get this stove  (stovetop, I don't have an IR gun) over about 520.  I have to admit I have not killed myself trying to do so...but it doesn't seem to want to get hotter.  I do have active secondaries, and plenty of heat, so I'm not worried.  But I am curious about what heat output would be if the stovetop was 600.  I'm burning very good, dry wood.  Same as I've always used.  No issue with it's performance.  Same wood in Fireview would easily run into a VERY hot fire if I left damper open by mistake.  This does not happen with this stove...maybe it would if I left damper all the way open for a really long time, but certainly doesn't in the twenty minutes max I have left it fully open with a fresh load.  So, I consider this stove very safe.  Anyone care to share what they have done to get their stove up to 600 or so?



I've gotten up to 580 on occasion, not for trying or wanting, tho.  As I recall, the depth of the coal bed was a factor in determining the final high temp of the stove top, the deeper the bed, the higher the eventual temp.  But, take this with a grain of salt, my memory is NOT what it used to be  :-S and it's been awhile since I've gotten up that high a temp.  Possibly, also running with the damper open 50% or so for awhile after closing the bypass.  My Progress has been performing brilliantly, too.


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## Flamestead (Mar 4, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> What a perfect day.  Heading back out in a minute.
> ...snip...
> Anyone care to share what they have done to get their stove up to 600 or so?



Rideau, 
here's a link to a thread where I posted a few days ago regarding getting the PH temp up to 600 territory: post on higher PH temps. The burn I was doing while writing that post climbed up to 630, sat there an hour, and then gradually slid back down.

My daughter has been tending the stove after school, and is limited to 4 splits at a time by my wife. Yesterday I suggested that a weekend with us around would be a good time to try getting used to adding more at once. She went whole-hog. I came in later in the day to a very active load as large as any I've done. What she didn't realize was the wind had kicked up, and she hadn't noticed both the stovetop and flue temps were steadily climbing. I got it closed down, and it leveled off at about 680. And then sat there for over an hour. And it was 48 degrees outside. And 80 degrees in the kitchen with a box fan blowing in cooler air. Guess I need to be more careful with my suggestions.

Basically get your load of wood nice and hot, with the secondaries cooking the top wood, and use the damper to go to higher temps. Once within about 50 degrees of where you want to be I'd be backing down and eventually fully closing the damper. I've had the smoke smell with a lower temp fire and fully closed damper, but have not had that happen at the higher temps. The secondaries continue rolling. Opening the damper is your accelerator, but be aware that with a full load there is no brake - you can only level off.

I did once get up to 700 degrees on a black firebox with fully closed damper. Damper was closed fully at about 500 degrees, more than an hour later I noticed it was still climbing. At 650 degree I was getting tense and started searching the logs here. At 700 degrees the secondaries lit off, and within 10 minutes the stovetop started heading (slowly) down. I have not tried to recreate that experience, but it was with a full load, which I think contributed to the amount of smoke for the cat to burn.


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## Backwoods Savage (Mar 4, 2012)

Flamestead, your story reminds me of when we were new to the Fireview. I filled or almost filled it and sat back to enjoy. Then when the flame lifted right up off the wood we were really amazed. Then that flame started rolling and it was really amazing and we were really enjoying it. But I started getting a bit too warm and got up to look at the temperature. Oh! Oh! Stovetop temperature was well over 600 degrees and climbing. When it got to over 650 I started being a bit concerned. Then at 680, well, let's just say it concentrated my attention; all of my attention. About the time I decided on plan, the temperature stopped climbing just short of 700. Whew! We opened a couple of windows and probably a door too to cool it off in the house. 

Well, that worked okay but it was quite some time before I tried that again. But when the cold weather set in we tried it again and this time really enjoyed the show. Now it is so common to see 650 or above that we don't give it quite so much attention. However, this winter we did not fill the stove but maybe a dozen times. Tonight will be one of those nights with single digit temperatures so we'll have a bit of a show to watch.


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