# Can't get enough heat out of my system!?!?



## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Hey guys,

I recently got a Ridgewood Model# 6000 OWB. I installed it myself, and later had the company's installer come out to help diagnose the problem. He said I installed everything correctly and very cleanly. He left dumbfounded that we could not get the system to heat my house. I have a hard time believing this. Please note that our Side arm is working just fine, and in fact I have yet to run out of any hot water. The electricity is off to the hot water heater, and has been for a few days now.

Some background. The pump on the OWB is a Honeywell model# PC3F1558IUF00.
It is a 3 speed pump, and the Manual says that it has a maximum flow rate of 15GPM on high speed (which I have it set on)

I am running a 32" Sidearm, which is 3/4" inside 1 1/2".

The water to water heat exchanger was included with the OWB purchase and does not display a brand name. It
just says the following " 50-RD40 Capacity up to 300,000 Btu/h @ 30.7 GPM  PD<5 psig

The houses Boiler system is a Slant/fin boiler with a Grundfos Type UP 15-42F pump. The thermostat for the water temp. was previously set a 200° (seemed really high to me)

There is approximately 140ft of 3/4" copper pipping of which 90ft is baseboard with fins. According to the front gauge on the house boiler the pressure in the lines is at about 20 to 25 psi.

The house has a total of 1,638 sq ft. to heat. We can not get the house above 60°F without the help of our pellet stove.

There is approximately 75ft of insulated 1" Pex tubing running from the back of the OWB to the house 6ft under ground. Once in the basement, it immediately 90°'s and runs 10ft through another wall where it takes another 90° turn towards the Sidearm. It then takes two more 90° turns into the Sidearm. From the side arm it travels less than 3ft through 2 90° turns into the water to water plate exchanger. Then it leaves the plate exchanger and goes through 4 90° turns back to the OWB.

The guy who came out from Ridgewood bumped up the High Set Point to 200° from the pre set 180° and said it should help. Well it has allowed us to only get the house up to 65° and that is running 100% everything on high.

When we had propane, we could get the house to any temp we wanted, although we only used it for only one winter because it went through so much propane. The system has sat empty for the last 6 years, until this install. I have already got all the air out of the system... have bleed it about 10 times now to make sure.

Someone school this dummy why this set up is not working??? I see right off the bat that the pump is only capable of pumping half of the GPM that the exchanger will take, but am not sure if this is the problem. Any help would be more than appreciated.

Below are some photos to help describe my setup.








Where the pex enters the house




Then into the furnace room




And inside the furnace room


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## woodsmaster (Jan 11, 2015)

Have you measured the water temp leaving the boiler and temp when it reaches the house ?


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Not sure how I would go about doing that? I could measure at the stove based on what the aquastat says but where in the house could I get to the water without cutting into the pipe?


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## woodsmaster (Jan 11, 2015)

perchin said:


> Not sure how I would go about doing that? I could measure at the stove based on what the aquastat says but where in the house could I get to the water without cutting into the pipe?


 strap on thermometer on the incoming pipe. Could even tape regular thermometer or an outdoor thermometer sensor to the pipe with some insulation around it,


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2015)

Sounds like your piping is just not large enough to carry the flow you need.  Counting each elbow as equivalent to 4' of straight pipe, your round-trip loop adds up to something over 200'.  Plus the sidearm.  Plus the WWHX.  The pump you're using can probably only push about 5 gpm under the circumstances.  BTU per hour is deltaT times gpm times 500, so try to get an estimate of what your deltaT might be by measuring supply and return temperatures from the boiler with system gauges or a hand-held infrared thermometer.

Short term you can go with a bigger pump with a steeper curve, a Taco 0011 for instance.  You'd be going from 85 watts to over 200 watts, so if your're running it most of the time you'll see it in your electricity bill, but it should just about double your gpm.

And your WWHX is likely undersized.  "Up to 300,000 btu / hour"? They might as well say up to 1,000,000 btu per hour for all the difference it would make to your actual system. [As noted below the WWHX could be your main problem, but we need more temperature data to have a better idea.]

Longer term you could move you WWHX over to where you OWB piping enters the house and then use a small pump to move the water through the sidearm and other loads.  This would lower the resistance of the OWB-house loop considerably.

Even longer term you can start installing some panel radiators or other low temperature emitters to increase your system deltaT.


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Are you saying to strap the thermometer to the pex? Curious because the pex and the brass fittings in the loop are at very different temps to the touch. The pex is uncomfortable to touch and the brass is even hotter.


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2015)

An IR thermometer (gun type) would be very useful here, long as it's a decent one. You should be able to get temps off the fittings - the el's as soon as it comes into the basement are good spots. You might have to spray a splash of flat black paint on the surfaces you're trying to get temps from - IR guns don't do very good on shiney surfaces most times.

Without lots of temp data we can't really suggest much. Should measure the temps at OWB supply/return, same where it gets into the basement, temps at each HX in & out - both sides, and supply & return of your indoor boiler. But what is the temp in your indoor boiler? Should be a guage on it? Also don't know much about your house. If the baseboard was designed to meet heat load with a water supply temp of 200 (where it was set at), with no extra capacity designed in, you might need more radiation also.


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

aahhaaaa... I will paint them then. I already have a IR thermometer gun. I'll check back asap...


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Ok... I tried painting the surfaces that I was trying to monitor the temp on... I'm still getting pretty crazy readings that are jumping all over though. I just put a meat thermometer on the surfaces long enough to get a steady reading with it, and here are the results.

This is where the pex first comes into the sidearm (which is the first thing in the loop) about 195°.




Here is where it first enters the exchanger approx. 192-193°


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2015)

perchin said:


> Ok... I tried painting the surfaces that I was trying to monitor the temp on... I'm still getting pretty crazy readings that are jumping all over though. I just put a meat thermometer on the surfaces long enough to get a steady reading with it, and here are the results.


Pretty sure it's the other end of the needle that matters.  The meat thermometer might work nicely but I think you would need to lay it along the pipe near an elbow and then wrap the needle end with foam sheeting of some sort so the temperature in the space under the foam comes up to the temperature of the water in the pipe.


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> Pretty sure it's the other end of the needle that matters.  The meat thermometer might work nicely but I think you would need to lay it along the pipe near an elbow and then wrap the needle end with foam sheeting of some sort so the temperature in the space under the foam comes up to the temperature of the water in the pipe.



No, but thanks. the round end is what matters according to the original packaging, and from experience using it to get my perfect medium rare steaks on the grill.
Not saying it is perfectly accurate, but the IR gun was just ridiculously jumping around on temp.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 11, 2015)

I was thinking the same, I think the pointed end is what you go by ? as ewdudley said, need to wrap some insulation around it


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## woodsmaster (Jan 11, 2015)

What is the temp coming out of the flat plate then ?


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2015)

What's the temp at the OWB while you're doing that?

And what does the thermometer read when it is just sitting touching nothing?

The picture of that thermometer on the Taylor website just sitting there not measuring anything has the bubble end of the needle at 190. I think you are using the wrong end of the needle. Stick it in some boiler water if you want to find out for sure.


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2015)

maple1 said:


> The picture of that thermometer on the Taylor website just sitting there not measuring anything has the bubble end of the needle at 190. I think you are using the wrong end of the needle.


Or somebody on the assembly line decided to mess with us!


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2015)

Maybe it was a Monday thermometer.

I don't trust my IR thermometer, but usually if I paint the surface with flat black BBQ paint, and hold the IR gun right up against it, I can get stable somewhat sensible readings. To use the meat thermometer, as said, you need to get the probe flat against the surface as you can & hold some insulation around the whole setup. Just holding the point or stem on the surface will be pretty inaccurate.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 11, 2015)

Just a thought that you might want to move the sidearm to the return of the flat plate.  That way the hot water from the own hits your big load that needs higher temps first, but there should be plenty to heat dhw still.  And there is a tempering valve on your hot water heater, right?  RIGHT?!?!?!

Can your house pump handle the flow through the HX?  Do you know its pumping?  If it sat for years it might just be stuck not spinning.  That could explain some of the issue...


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Ok... This is just not working out. I'm guessing I'm not actually getting the water temp while doing this right? Where exactly can I get an accurate temp. Every surface throughout the system is at FAR different temps. For instance, the pex, I can grab ahold of without burning myself. The copper components I can not. Logically the water temp is going to go down as I move down the loop. I just want to know what the actual water temperature is right? Not what the surface of the pex is at? Or is there an equation that is involved, like if the pex is @ 98° then the water inside is @ 148° or something?

I will post a video soon of what I am getting with the IR and walk everyone through what I am seeing.

And as far as the meat thermometer, it might be reading wrong or something... It has never recorded any temps higher than what I took a picture of.


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Clarkbug said:


> And there is a tempering valve on your hot water heater, right? RIGHT?!?!?!



Yes



Clarkbug said:


> Can your house pump handle the flow through the HX? Do you know its pumping?



Yes it is pumping.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 11, 2015)

maple1 said:


> You might have to spray a splash of flat black paint on the surfaces you're trying to get temps from - IR guns don't do very good on shiney surfaces most times.


Yep, IR guns work great on a flat black surface and ideally a large flat surface, but that is not as crucial as the reflectivity of the surface (flat black). A consistent distance from the sample is important too when comparing temps like this, closer is probably better here, also, centered on the pipe. 
I would bet that the copper and the pex just "feel" different due to different conductivity of the materials


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## Clarkbug (Jan 11, 2015)

Nope no equation that I am aware of to tell you temps.  The pex will eventually be the same temp as the water inside, its just a matter of the time of contact.  

It might be useful to get a bunch of cheap meat thermometers to strap to your pipes.  You can put them in boiling water to verify accuracy, then tape them on .  that will help everyone figure this out.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 11, 2015)

Also, if you are gonna use the probe thermometer, you will need to tape it to the pipe and cover it with pipe type insulation and leave it there for a few minutes to get an accurate reading. The suggestion to check the thermo in a pan of (just barely) boiling water is a good idea too, verify accuracy.


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Ok... I can assure you all right now that the pex is not at the same temperature as the brass fittings and no it will not eventually get to the same temp as the water. It has been running for over a week now and I can grab a hold of and continue to hold the pex for as long as I want. The IR reads the pex as a lot cooler then the brass. I can not even think about holding onto the brass fittings in the system. I know fully well when something is going to burn me, and they indeed will. Just touching them leaves a nice little red spot in my finger and burns like crazy.

I did every IR reading the same. With the IR gun directly against each spot.

I couldn't get my camcorder on the phone to work properly, so here are the photos of my findings with the IR on the painted with flat black high temp paint.

This is where it comes into the house. 179.5°. I couldn't get the photo with it up against the pipe, because it was too dark, but I just took a photo of its hold at high point measured.




This is where it goes into the Sidearm. 186°, strange that it reads hotter here than where it comes into the house. Again, different surfaces at different temps as I was describing.




This is where it enters the exchanger 187.5° ...within 2.5ft of the sidearm




This is where the house's seperate system exits the exchanger 176.5°




This is where the water returns into the boiler after running through the entire baseboard system 164.5°




Hard to tell, but the gauge on the front of the boiler says that the water it is getting back is at about 150°


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## GENECOP (Jan 11, 2015)

I purchased the Redicheck wireless therms from amazon..just attach to any metal fitting, insulate over, and you will have two temps easy to view...


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## GENECOP (Jan 11, 2015)

I am no expert but since your temps look good and with the other info you provided , it sounds like air..I know you bled 10 times but when we first designed our system, I had a hell of a time bleeding, did battle with air for the first year, finally one of my buddies came over and added a number of self bleeders and Spiro vents. Some systems the way are layed out (designed) they tend to trap air and are difficult to bleed..after we made those changes, things got warmer...


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm willing to try about anything at this point. I have one very upset wife, since spending the amount of cash I have into this for it to not be heating our house.


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## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2015)

perchin said:


> I'm willing to try about anything at this point. I have one very upset wife, since spending the amount of cash I have into this for it to not be heating our house.


As others have suggested, the meat thermometer would likely work well if you get the shaft parallel to the pipe and then wrap it with foam rubber, styrofoam sheeting, pipe insulation, wool socks, or whatever so that the the tip of the thermometer can see the water temperature after a minute or two.

Then at a minimum need to know temperature entering HX from boiler, temperature returning to boiler from HX, temperature entering HX from system, and temperature leaving HX to supply the system.


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

The meat thermometer I have does not work properly. I just boiled water and it was only reading about 180°


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

The Ridgewood guy is coming out tonight to install a larger pump, and also in line devices on the inlet and outlet side that measure the water temp, and flow rate. We'll see what comes out of this tonight.


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 11, 2015)

I'm not going to profess to understand your setup that well, sounds to me like you're chaining boilers (OWB->Slantfin) and using the slantfin to circulate.  Is this correct?  Was this the same setup that the propane was, what changed?  The OWB and the WWHX?

Could it be that there's a difference in speed to the baseboards and the heat transfer isn't the same?


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## ihookem (Jan 11, 2015)

Everytime I got air in my pressurized system it acted funny and much like that. I could be 190* and still little heat. The only thing I can see is the pex is pinched and not pumping near the GPM it needs to keep the house warm. But, that can't be cause it is coming out of the HX @ 150 and that should be good enough. And since it has been going only 1 week, it could very well have air stuck., Just maybe there is a leak and air keeps getting in but you would see it in the pressure guage. It sure seems like air in a hydronic unit to me. At least, you don';t have something that will cost 500 bucks to fix.  ANd pex is never as hot to the touch as metal.


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## boB48 (Jan 11, 2015)

I also a newbee, sounds like air I have fought air FOR EVER I put a stand pip right at the coil with a bleeder at the top..will fought air for a while.


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## perchin (Jan 11, 2015)

Well the guy came out and installed a larger pump and also two in line thermometers. 

With the larger pump it is now getting 193° water going into the exchanger and 189° water into the baseboards. They seem to be much hotter now. He also hooked up a house to the system and purged it a couple of times for a lot longer than I had done myself. I know for sure he got out a lot more air than I had.

I was very pleasantly surprised to see that I am only losing about 4° with the new pump. 
Fingers crossed that it starts bringing up the temp in the house now.


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## maple1 (Jan 12, 2015)

If 189° water going into the baseboards doesn't keep you toasty, you have baseboard problems - like, not enough. We do fine on 160° water.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 12, 2015)

Yep yep.  I only have problems at -15 or so with a steady 20 MPH wind with my baseboard at 180 to 200 degrees.  (Thats on the oil boiler).  Most of the time I can do fine with 140, but I cruse around 155 or 160.  

Im going to guess it was the air that was the issue, and you can probably adjust your OWB back down a few degrees to try and help save yourself some wood.


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## perchin (Jan 16, 2015)

So the system will only heat up to about 70° now. I finally broke down and had a professional come out. He was extremely honest and left not selling me anything. He advised me that the base boards were not originally installed high enough off the floor to allow for natural convection like they are supposed to. And when we had new carpet installed, the installers didn't know better, and installed directly underneath them... making the covers tightly sealing to the bottom of the covers. He walked all through the house, and was showing me how much hotter the air was near the baseboards that had nothing obstructing the bottoms of them, to the ones that did (big difference). 

He then also gave me some tips to get better results with the baseboards, like the fact that we need to have air flow in our home. Currently we have none.

My solution for now, will be to have a carpet installer come out and cut back the carpet to within an inch or so shy of the baseboards, and to run our ceiling fans on low backwards to move the hotter air around, and help create the cycling of hot and cold air.

He said the amount of baseboards I have should be adequate for our home, and shouldn't have any problems heating the house to 80° if desired.

My next step is to just take the plunge into the forced air world, as this radiant heat stuff is just aggravating and leaving us cold.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 16, 2015)

Dont do it!  

Forced Air isnt all its cracked up to be, at least not in my mind.  Once you get your system dialed in, it should be perfectly comfortable for you.  Baseboard needs airflow to work, cant get around that.  Heck, in the meantime you can take the covers off of there  to get things heated up (looks bad, should work OK).  Just be careful not to mash any of the fins over by hitting it with anything.  Worthwhile experiment at least to see if that helps.


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## Fred61 (Jan 16, 2015)

Clarkbug said:


> Heck, in the meantime you can take the covers off of there  to get things heated up


Would be better than what he has now but the chimney effect of the front panel assists the flow if there is adequate space below.


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## ewdudley (Jan 16, 2015)

Clarkbug said:


> Dont do it!
> 
> Forced Air isnt all its cracked up to be, at least not in my mind.  Once you get your system dialed in, it should be perfectly comfortable for you.  Baseboard needs airflow to work, cant get around that.  Heck, in the meantime you can take the covers off of there  to get things heated up (looks bad, should work OK).  Just be careful not to mash any of the fins over by hitting it with anything.  Worthwhile experiment at least to see if that helps.


+1!
Just pull the covers off, relax, and plan your next move.  Maybe have a tin-knocker make some new covers.


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## perchin (Jan 16, 2015)

Fred61 said:


> Would be better than what he has now but the chimney effect of the front panel assists the flow if there is adequate space below.



Yeah, he did mention that I could also cut about a half inch off the bottom of the covers to help assist the convection, but it would look ugly.... wife is not too keen to that one and wants to have the carpet re-worked first.

Forgot to note: He said to take the plunge and get a newer thermostat, because our "old school mercury one, is not the most accurate, or efficient".

Any suggestions on the newer digital read ones... like what is easy to use, and works good?


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## JP11 (Jan 16, 2015)

Go slow.. don't make hasty decisions.  

take the covers off first.  that's FREE.

Cut the carpets back.. that should be CHEAP.  

Then see where you're at.

In your situation.. I'd rather pay a plumber a day's wages this summer to move ALL your baseboards up..  but that would expose your carpet cutback.  Maybe i'd run covers off for this year.  At least in all your rooms that no one would see.  Or just slap em back on when company is coming over.

JP


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## tom in maine (Jan 16, 2015)

Sounds like you have had a fun time.
Glad you have some good support.
I agree with everyone to not do anything rash. Take your time. That is difficult when things are cold and a spouse is not happy.
I would remove the covers and see how you do. You can jerry-rig them so the covers are in place but have some space on the bottom for now to allow convection.

As you consider options, Google radiant panels. They would be simpler to install than forced air or radiant systems and will throw out a fair bit of heat. 
I think they look better, which might make your wife feel better, too.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 16, 2015)

perchin said:


> Any suggestions on the newer digital read ones... like what is easy to use, and works good?



Home Depot had one of the nice Honeywell models on clearance for $20.  I think its the RTD7500/or something along those lines.  Usually sells for over 60.  Worth a try to see of there are anywhere near you.

Otherwise, LUX makes a nice model.


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## maple1 (Jan 16, 2015)

He's likely bang on - but I don't agree with the air movement thing. The rads will make their own convection flow (when they aren't blocked at the bottom, that is) to get the heat circulating.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 16, 2015)

maple1 said:


> He's likely bang on - but I don't agree with the air movement thing. The rads will make their own convection flow (when they aren't blocked at the bottom, that is) to get the heat circulating.


+1 ^^^


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## salecker (Jan 17, 2015)

Stay with the radiant heat.
This is our first winter in our new upstairs.We have a 25' ceiling to the peak in 60% of our house and a high ceiling in the upstairs bedroom.We just went through a -40C spell and the temps were always comfortable with the radiant heat.Downstairs we have a HX with a fan and any cold temps we always had a swing in temps that were noticeable,plus the noise of a fan running.
 I need cool temps to sleep and our room in the loft was insulated to keep heat out.Cast iron rads with TRV's is the most even heat I've ever had the pleasure of sleeping in.
 Thomas


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 17, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> +1!
> Just pull the covers off, relax, and plan your next move.  Maybe have a tin-knocker make some new covers.




The covers need to be in place, and provide adequate air movement  to force the convection currents.  If you remove them completely you have a crummy looking, low performing panel radiator   I doubt you will see much if any improvement with the covers off.

Trim back the carpet and vacuum the elements first.  The fin tube is facing the right direction?  Occasionally the fins are facing front to back when mis-installed.


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## ewdudley (Jan 17, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> I doubt you will see much if any improvement with the covers off.


Seems unlikely.  The covers are tight against the carpet now according to the OP.  Removing the covers could not help but improve the situation.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 17, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> Seems unlikely.  The covers are tight against the carpet now according to the OP.  Removing the covers could not help but improve the situation.



Agreed it may work better, considering the carpet issue.

To get full output the covers are a critical part of the assembly.  The covers force the cooler air to enter the bottom and force the heated air currents up.  So you get a circular movement of air current from floor to ceiling.

If the carpet cut is acceptable, that is the best fix.  Moving them up may require piping changes and it will expose some wall that has never been seen before, and may be more of an eyesore.  A tough area to trim or paint, under a baseboard.

Another option we have used is to  pull the carpet up at the baseboard, cut the pad underneath back 3" and put the carpet back down without cutting any off.  
This may open up enough air space to get the output up and doesn't look as bad as a jagged carpet edge cut short.

Unless it's purple shag carpet, baby


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## haveissues (Jan 18, 2015)

I raised my covers without having to replumb the heating elements.  I raised them up about an inch when I renovated my house and there was enough up and down wiggle room that it wasn't an issue.  I would pop off the front covers first and see if you can move everything up a bit.  Going up is easier than down as you wont be exposing previously unpainted wall.  As others have said, radiators are useless without the covers on.


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## maple1 (Jan 18, 2015)

My elements rest on supports that are built into/attached to the back of the shroud. I don't think I could raise them up without raising piping, elements & all. Unless I were to knock/cut those supports off & rig something else up for support.


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## ixlr8 (Jan 18, 2015)

Not sure if I missed it, did the house get warm with the Slant Fin boiler?


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## haveissues (Jan 18, 2015)

maple1 said:


> My elements rest on supports that are built into/attached to the back of the shroud. I don't think I could raise them up without raising piping, elements & all. Unless I were to knock/cut those supports off & rig something else up for support.


I moved shroud and all.  Their was enough vertical movement in the pipes to move the entire baseboard, element and all in my case and I just unscrewed them, moved them up and screwed them back in.  These were typical slantfin 30's that came up through the floor so it might be a bit tougher if they come through the wall.


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## maple1 (Jan 18, 2015)

That's a good point.


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## perchin (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm happy to report that the carpet guy came out and did a good job yesterday afternoon. We woke up this morning and the house was at 75°F. I dialed the thermostat back down to 69°, and have been smiling since.

I'm  just hoping that it is not just because it was in the low 40's today.


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## rogdan (Feb 13, 2015)

So, all continues to be well?


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