# What have you done to cope with high energy costs?



## sylvestermcmonkey (May 30, 2008)

Assuming that you're paying more for energy - and who isn't - logically more of your otherwise disposable income is now going to pay for all sorts of things that cost more - gas, food, etc. There are many ways of adjusting to this. I'm curious - how have you adjusted? Where does the money come from? More debt? "Government stimulus?" Have you even adjusted at all?

Reducing consumption is one way to cope. If you have, what have you done, specifically? Trading your Chevy Suburban for a Smart ForTwo, assuming you drive the same number of miles, counts as "reducing consumption" but going from oil to wood or pellets doesn't - that's a different answer.

If your consumption has remained relatively constant how have you re-allocated your expenses to offset energy's higher cost? 

For me, I've completely eliminated going to restaurants. That means no eating out - no McDonald's no Starbucks, nothing. No movies (but I do have Netflix). Haven't had TV for years but that predated energy's recent rise so it doesn't really count. Have had small fuel efficient cars for years too. Never did much frivolous driving but I'm making a concerted effort to combine necessary trips. Sold my airplane :down: but with avgas over $6.00 a gallon I wasn't flying much any more. No magazine or newspaper subscriptions - no need as long as my dialup works. I'm going to the local library more than ever, no book purchases necessary. Ammo purchases are down to about nothing due to its high cost. Already have a bunch of CFLs and dimmers on what aren't. Planted a small vegetable garden. The pellet stove will reduce my heating oil consumption. Next on the chopping block for me is my cell phone and Netflix - I lived without them for years and can do it again. After that... well I really don't know. There's not much else to cut. Maybe I'll stop cutting the grass. 

Speaking of cutting my barber says his business is down - he says people simply go longer without a haircut. I suppose I'd just shave my head if necessary. Save on shampoo also.

So what have you done? What WILL you do if gas goes to $10.00 a gallon or simply unavailable at any price? 

Be specific!

I'd put this in the form of a poll but the answers would be too constraining.


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## begreen (May 30, 2008)

There is a huge difference between gas at $10/gal and not available. They are very different scenarios. 

For us the answer is simple, you make do with less. We've already anticipated this happening and will continue to tighten up the house, drive less in fuel sipping car and truck, and grow our own. The greenhouse should be going up this year. Other than that we will likely see what we can do in our community to help others. This may be carpooling for the elderly, growing extra crops, helping out at the food bank. I already cut my kid's hair and I don't have enough left to worry about .

If I was back east I would also likely be planning to close off parts of the house in winter to further reduce heating load. 

Interesting to note that this Memorial Day with the high gas prices there was a huge difference in traffic on the holiday. What normally would be bumper to bumper from Canada to Seattle was a fairly light load.


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## MishMouse (May 30, 2008)

Upgraded my small stove which was meant to take the chill out of the basement to a larger stove that is meant to heat the house.
Had the outside of my basement insulated along with having the blocks covered so there is no longer any exposure.
I can anything and everything that the deer don't get out of the garden.
I even can the deer when one happens to appear during hunting season.
I changed my driving habits, slow and steady instead of fast and furious.
Cut my beer consumption down, instead of a six pack a week, a can every 2 months.  :down: 
Instead of buying my morning granola bar I make them instead.
I cut my dish package 150 with locals down to the dish family with locals.
Instead of driving the 480 mile round trip to vist my parents over Memorial Day I stayed home instead.
I shop locally instead of driving to the bigger towns.
When making purchases I research them more before I make them and if I have to travel to pick the purchase up I include the cost of gas in the purchase.
I encourage the wife to take the 4 wheeler to drive the 1/4 mile to her parents house instead of taking the car.
All trips to town are combined with other trips, aka I need to go shopping, I wait until there are other reasons to go to town.
When I am in town and the stores are close to each other and my life is not in jeopardy I walk instead of driving.


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## BrotherBart (May 30, 2008)

Keep on keeping on. I have been so tight I squeak my whole life, raised by depression era parents as I was. In fact I am thinking about ramping up spending. The calculator says I have maybe 11 years left so what the hell.


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## timfromohio (May 30, 2008)

"Speaking of cutting my barber says his business is down - he says people simply go longer without a haircut. I suppose I’d just shave my head if necessary. Save on shampoo also. "

Bought a set of clippers for $14.99 - they paid for themselves after the first haircut!  That was one thing.  Enlarged garden, put in berry bushes, being smarter about driving (consolidating trips out).


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## BrotherBart (May 30, 2008)

"Cut my beer consumption down, instead of a six pack a week, a can every 2 months."

When they pry the twelve pack from my cold dead hands...


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## WoodMann (May 30, 2008)

As stated by another, I squeak too. I have seriously considered throwing my Sierra into the sea as discussed in another thread but came find out that another owner with a Colorado 5cyl got the same mileage shis sone got with a Silverado 5.3. Even went so far as looking at a 2003 Sonoma(S10) with a 2.2, now yer makin' a dent. But the change over cost wouldn't justify any droplets of savings as I live 2.1 miles from work. But I did blow out the pilot lite on the furnace and I eat generic beefaroni..........


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## Metal (May 30, 2008)

I decided to increase my earning potential by getting an MBA.  Company paid for it so really couldn't go wrong (other than taking up a lot of my "free" time).  I currently invest about 15-20% of my income so if things ever get really bad I can back off on that for a while.  The only debt I have is my mortgage so my expenses are relatively small and my wife stays home with our three girls and I live less than 10 minutes from my work so gas prices aren't really an issue (fill up a few times a month).


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## JustWood (May 30, 2008)

Bought an S-10 for a grocery and parts getter and selling the camaro
Only use the F-350 when I'm making money with it.
Online banking-cut out the stamps and envelopes.
Stop at grocery store when out making the deliveries if I'm going right by the store anyway.
Cut out all advertising and now direct call off of customer list.
Recycling everything.
Fixing everything myself instead of taking it to the shop.
Got rid of second cell
Greenhouse in the works before fall and root cellar.
Bigger garden and  bigger rain water storage for watering the garden
Cut out the local dinor in the morning.
Been watching the sales on meat , buying and  freezing alot when it's on sale.
I too have also been known to squeak and lately it's getting very loud !


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## WoodMann (May 30, 2008)

Oh yeah- almost forgot. I have noticed an improvement is gas mileage since cleaning the air filter. I have a FRAM Air Hog................


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## TboneMan (May 30, 2008)

Wow some of those measures are pretty drastic.

My diesel pickup stays parked unless needed.   My wife and I have carpooled for years.   I've drive the speed limit, and have for years.  I now heat with a pellet stove instead of my forced air propane furnace.   My 14 year hot water heater died two weeks ago, I replaced it with an tankless on-demand system (propane).


I hate to say it, but we all cant' just STOP spending money on things.   If we all did that, no one would have a job.   I'm an advocate of smart spending.  Yes, I still go out to eat --- only mom/pop restaurants -- I avoid chains.  Support you're local vendors when every possible.   

I refuse to become a hermit or take a doom and gloom view of things.


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## fossil (May 30, 2008)

I haven't gotten a haircut in almost 9 years.  I rarely bathe.  As soon as I can afford some propane, I'm going to grill both of wife's cats.  And maybe her dog.  Rick


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## BrotherBart (May 30, 2008)

My wife puts my hair up in dreadlocks, we threw the water heater out to make room for more wood in the basement, we now start our seedlings in what used to be the bath tubs and since my wife guards her cat we cooked the neighbors Golden on the spit over a wood fire over the holiday.

The still out back is almost finished and we drink dandelion wine with our beans and cornbread. We buy the torn bags of beans and cornmeal in the basket up in the front of the grocery store.


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## WoodMann (May 30, 2008)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> The still out back is almost finished and we drink dandelion wine with our beans and cornbread. We buy the torn bags of beans and cornmeal in the basket up in the front of the grocery store.



Man how original. Why can't I think of anything like this? I'd be rich by now just doin the dadelion wine deal...................


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## webbie (May 30, 2008)

I know this is somewhat of a cop-out, but so much of the problem is societal.....you and I could go homeless or eat rice from 50 lb bags and it is not likely to make the difference that we need. Yes, each of us will react (to some degree) to ECONOMIC circumstances, but that can be over quickly - if the government prints more money, or if oil prices come down, we get a better job, inheritance, etc.

But none of those things will expand our rail systems, up our CAFE standards, etc.

The "green revolution" strikes me as mostly fad and fake, and while that may sound harsh I think it is somewhat true. As an example, we have radio commercials on regularly saying that one of the best ways to "save the planet" is to make certain we bring our reusable shopping bags to the grocery store! I have to laugh when I hear these....and I say to Martha "Heck, it's not the BAGS that are the problem, IT'S WHAT WE PUT INTO THEM!

Obvious? Doesn't seem so, but for someone to afford commercials on the radio, they have to be selling something (in this case it is a waste disposal outlet....plenty of business there!).

The hippies and gurus had one thing right (well, more than one thing)....and that is that "we are all one", meaning there is a relationship between all people and the systems that sustain the earth, life, etc. - As long as we are willing to bury our collective heads in the sand (the status quo), we are unlikely to see real change on a macro level. But the good news is that a lot of the best minds in the world are at work right now looking for revolutionary solutions. And example is google.org, which wants to create solar energy cheaper than coal  (among other things)  - with no government subsidy.  So while engineers may have done their part in helping destroy the world (war, cars, pollution, etc.), in the end I predict that brains will end up saving it! The transition to smaller houses, smaller cars, more efficient processes, etc. will take decades - but I think it will happen.


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## fossil (May 30, 2008)

Engineers, for the most part, design, build, operate and maintain what the customers want.  When the customers really want more energy efficient ways of living, and a cleaner environment, etc., the engineers will respond (as many already are responding).  The market, and all its implications, are driven by the end users.  Some intelligent government involvement would certainly speed the process...hope to see us get some one day.  Rick (Mechanical Engineer)


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## WoodMann (May 30, 2008)

I hear ya Craig, each one of us induvidually prolly won't make a drop in the bucket's worth of a difference, the Iraninians will hate us wither way. But it won't be comming out of our pocket's(those of us that are cutting back/ down). You can only control what you do and use, nothing about the yahoo in the other lane.............


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## BrotherBart (May 30, 2008)

What the OP is talking about is what does the house at 2727 Bluebonnet Lane do to deal with this while society as a whole either fixes it or screws it up worse. And I have no faith in my societal brethren to fix it. Society may cause it and the individual may or may not have participated in causing it but when the rubber meets the proverbial road the individual has the kids to feed and clothe. Or in the case of our household eat, heat and pay the medical bills. 

If any spot in history was the turning point to this mess it was the 1980s. About that time the boomers did a mental disconnect from the depression era parents raising them and said "Let's go for it.". Turning that around isn't going to happen without major fiscal pain.

And I don't have time left for pain of any variety. Just wait until your conversations turn one of these days to "I know we are going to be able to eat. How the hell are we going to get up and down the stairs?'.

I have been heating with wood most of my adult life. I want my back carbon credits that I can use to pay for a stairlift.


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## WoodMann (May 30, 2008)

Call up AL Goron in his McMansion, I'm sure he can help you out................


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## begreen (May 30, 2008)

WoodMann said:
			
		

> I hear ya Craig, each one of us induvidually prolly won't make a drop in the bucket's worth of a difference, the Iraninians will hate us wither way. But it won't be comming out of our pocket's(those of us that are cutting back/ down). You can only control what you do and use, nothing about the yahoo in the other lane.............



Stop with the US or them. The Iranians are hurting too. I read today that Iran is the world's second largest importer of gasoline. It's just us, we're all in this experiment called life together. The sooner we get down to the table and talk about it the better.


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## BrotherBart (May 30, 2008)

WoodMann said:
			
		

> Call up AL Goron in his McMansion, I'm sure he can help you out................



Al has him one of them REAL mansions. Hell if the Supreme Court screwed me out of being able to move into something like the White House with servants around the clock, a monster private jet and my own standing Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corp I would go build a block long house too.

I don't blame John Edwards for doing it either. As long as they send the butlers to take their plastic bags back to the grocery store. In the limo.

Here is a pic of Al with the 20th Engineer Brigade out of Bien Hoa:


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## Highbeam (May 30, 2008)

I stopped buying beef. Strange but true. My family of four is still working on consuming the deer that I harvested last year as hamburger but rather than a steak at 15$ per pound I find almost equal joy in eating bone and skin chicken breasts at 1.50$ per lb or pork loin steaks at 3$ per lb. 

Drink lower quality whiskey with juice or pop vs. expensive dark beer or nice bourbon. Regular drinking of course. Special occasions still require good stuff and plenty of it. Even cans of cheap beer add up in cost compared to appropriate mixtures of proper hard alchohol. 

Always drip coffee made at home and put in thermos. 10 cups per day for me. 

Cleaned out my refrigerator coils. That bugger was running longer and longer to keep the fridge cold. Very dirty before and now lots of air flow. 

I use a scangauge meter that actually calculates the amount of money I spent in fuel per trip, day, tank, etc. as well as instantaneous mpg. Knowing my fuel consumption really helps me reduce it. Combining trips is good too. Shopping for cheaper gas along my normal routes, the differential among stations is bigger than ever.

My single pane, aluminum frame windows are being replaced any day now with e-star windows. My power company just announced a 500$ incentive that will just sweeten the deal for me

Blown in attic insulation this summer on top of my existing 3" of fiberglass.

Note that you need to spend money to save money. If it gets real bad then we won't have the money to spend on saving. Now's the time to make these investments and not the time to just stop buying to save short term money.

Civil engineer here. So long as I have my job I will be fine. We live within our means by a healthy margin so by the time I have a hard time feeding the family there will be chaos. Yes, we have guns and ammo.


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## Turbozcs2003 (May 30, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> WoodMann said:
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Dont worry president Tom has all his Engineers hard at work on their centrifuges for heavy water so they can "Peacefully" develope nuclear power for their plug in cars, they dont need gasoline 

Per the original post,  myself I just put 6 more inches of insulation in my attic, sealed some of the penetrations in the attic while I was up there. Will be buying a pellet stove and insulating my basement. May also purchase some window blinds to help there.

As far as lifestyle, I am already a cheap bastard. Bag my lunch, thermos of coffee and rarely go out to eat. Havent been on a real vacation in years and will probably stay home and do some local day trips this year.  On the other hand, paid off the house this January so no more mortgage.  Agree with the post above, people today do not know how to manage money and get themselves into a pickle. They shouldnt be freaking out over 4$ a gallon gas or oil but should start figuring out how to adapt, and that means dont depend on the Gov to do anything, they only screw it up worse.


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## RedRanger (May 30, 2008)

Well for next summer, next to the everbearing raised strawberry bed is going a veggie bed.  But like brother bart I ain`t cutting back on my beer or t-bones for the bbq.  Only so many years left, damn well gonna enjoy them.  I think it depends a lot on your age about what you are or are not going to do.

At present we are subsidizing our youngest (daughter) to the tune of about $400 a month. while she goes to college. and when I suggest she stop shopping till she drops-  guess what?   she said bye and cut me off of messenger. :roll: No question that there is a big difference between generations.the younger think it is their right to shop and shop and spend on nightclubs and entertainment,etc. wheras most of us older people have seen and worked thru the hard times. and know that money doesn`t grow on trees.

Personally I think a lot more pain has to come before the younger generation "wakes up"..


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## Hogwildz (May 31, 2008)

I'm thinking of collecting my farts in old empty 5 gallon Ernest Gallo red wine bottles. And replacing my propane stove cooking gas with the bottled butt gas.
Course dinners might have a bit of a tangy taste.

If I could get rid of the ol lady & her kids, that would cut all energy usage here by at least 3/4. Hmmmm, gonna keep thinking on this one.


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## RedRanger (May 31, 2008)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> I'm thinking of collecting my farts in old empty 5 gallon Ernest Gallo red wine bottles. And replacing my propane stove cooking gas with the bottled butt gas.
> Course dinners might have a bit of a tangy taste.
> 
> If I could get rid of the ol lady & her kids, that would cut all energy usage here by at least 3/4. Hmmmm, gonna keep thinking on this one.



Hogg:  you been sniffing those atoms again? :lol:


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## fossil (May 31, 2008)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> ...bottled butt gas.



Hog, if you plan to market that, you might want to think of a different name for it.  Rick


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## mainemac (May 31, 2008)

Energy Costs /Cutting back:

1) Insulated the attic
2) Bought the wood insert this winter
3) Riding bike to work 6 miles round trip
4) My wife is letting the SUV sit in the garage and using my Prius.
5) CFL everywhere
6) Looking into the basement  insulation
7) Brown bagging lunch

Tom


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## begreen (May 31, 2008)

fossil said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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maybe buttane


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## Hogwildz (May 31, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> fossil said:
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HAHAHAHA LOL, excellent
Or....bodydiesel


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## BrotherBart (May 31, 2008)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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Just insert a space. "Me Thane".


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## Nofossil (May 31, 2008)

sylvestermcmonkey said:
			
		

> Assuming that you're paying more for energy - and who isn't - logically more of your otherwise disposable income is now going to pay for all sorts of things that cost more - gas, food, etc. There are many ways of adjusting to this. I'm curious - how have you adjusted? Where does the money come from? More debt? "Government stimulus?" Have you even adjusted at all?



I've already adjusted about as much as I'm willing to, long before today's energy prices.  Here's what we've done:

1) A fleet of 4 recycled (wrecked and rebuilt) Saturn SL2s with manual transmissions. Decent performance, 35mpg in mixed driving, extremely low maintenance costs and insurance. Average cost: $5k each, purchased at about 1 year old and about 12k miles each.

2) Very well insulated house, designed and built by us for livability and low energy usage. 3500 square feet, warm and comfy, 30,000 BTU/hr heat loss at -20 degrees.

3) Reasonably efficient wood gasification heating system for space heating, hot tub, and DHW. No smoke, no fumes, 4 cords per year.

4) Solar hot water for summertime. Total fuel oil consumption for annual heat and hot water: 20 gallons.

5) CFLs wherever they make sense. Low power computers.

6) A job where I work from home. No commuting miles.

7) Big veggie garden. Almost zero processed food.

8) Make our own lumber from our own trees in a well-managed woodlot.

As a consequence, energy is not a big part of our budget. At $4 a gallon, our total energy costs for automobiles, electricity, and heating is about $4000 per year. Our biggest expense by FAR is taxes - about $30,000.

Not bad for a hidebound conservative who's profoundly skeptical about the case for global warming, convinced that nuclear energy is the way to go, and is totally turned off by the entire 'green' movement.  I even feel that PV systems are a waste of resources - they consume more in their production and installation than they produce in their use. How that's a good idea escapes my logic.

I guess I 'walk the walk' without even agreeing with, much less 'talking the talk'.


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## WoodMann (May 31, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Stop with the US or them. The Iranians are hurting too. I read today that Iran is the world's second largest importer of gasoline. It's just us, we're all in this experiment called life together. The sooner we get down to the table and talk about it the better.



Sure it would be cool, Green if we could all just get along, I know we all bleed red and I personally don't have a problem with anyone as a person. But where the line gets drawn delineating 'us' and 'them' is that that country is virtually a cooking pot of hate toward the western world and they're hellbent on wiping us off the map. That's where the trouble is; not with the way they live or do things................


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## Telco (May 31, 2008)

Current and past:
- Added a foot of insulation to the house
- Sold the Tahoe and replaced it with a used minivan a few years back
- Everything is kept in tune
- Stopped driving 80MPH everywhere, top speed is 70MPH on 75MPH 2-lanes
- All small appliances are on power strips
- All lights are kept off
- Thermostat is 79 in the summer, 69 in the winter, ceiling fans used regularly
- Aerial technology for the TV
- Leftover night on a regular basis
- Fewer visits to the hundred dollar a night restaurants
- Basic oatmeal with dried fruit for breakfast, ramen for lunch, more beans for dinner

For the future
- Son's moving out in less than a month
- Daughter moves out next year
- Currently searching for a 5 acre plot of land closer to where the wife works
- Will sell the minivan for a nice C-5 Corvette (and with my tuning/mechanical skills, expect to see 30+MPG)
- Will be building a smaller, FAR more fuel efficient house using solar heat and with any luck solar electric
- Will pay off the new place with the profits from the old place, as the Tulsa area is one of the few in the nation that has continued to increase in value
- Have ideas towards an electric vehicle, will begin experimentation as soon as the new house is up and I have a workshop
- As soon as we're out of HOA Naziland, will have a garden, greenhouse and a root cellar

If my plans come to fruition, my yearly outlay will be 10 grand a year or so for everything.  If the electric vehicle plan works out, 10 buck a gallon gas will be a yawn.


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## Telco (May 31, 2008)

WoodMann said:
			
		

> As stated by another, I squeak too. I have seriously considered throwing my Sierra into the sea as discussed in another thread but came find out that another owner with a Colorado 5cyl got the same mileage shis sone got with a Silverado 5.3. Even went so far as looking at a 2003 Sonoma(S10) with a 2.2, now yer makin' a dent. But the change over cost wouldn't justify any droplets of savings as I live 2.1 miles from work. But I did blow out the pilot lite on the furnace and I eat generic beefaroni..........



On the Sierra, what year is that?  I can make some suggestions to improve mileage on it.


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## WoodMann (May 31, 2008)

Sure thing Telco. It's a 2001. For further information, I've tuned it with HP tuners, tweaked the ignition timming tables and have done away with the Torque management. That alone made it a whole new truck, oh yeah, and with new Iridium spark plugs. Cleaned my FRAM Air Hog the other day and it made a notiveable improvement in mileage. That's what I've got/ done but I'm all ears to any other improvements..............

Edit; I have thought about taking out the rear blocks and decranking to torsion bars to drop the front an inch making the truck look like a 2wd but concluded that the endeavor wouldn't be worth it either as I don't drive fast enough and the potential drivtrain/ alignment issues that could arise..................


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## webbie (May 31, 2008)

Again, please refrain from warmongering here - if you want to start a thread in the Ash Can about wars for oil and your opinion, do it. But I do not want these threads hijacked by beating the drums to kill more people, etc.

Please....


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## WoodMann (May 31, 2008)

Gotcha, now back to throwing my Sierra into the sea, or getting smaller tires to increase mileage...........


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## Shane (May 31, 2008)

What can I do with my '95 Dodge 1/2 ton?  It has the 360.


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## Highbeam (May 31, 2008)

Okay guys, on topic but about cars and trucks. First thing is buy one of the scangauge devices so you know how much fuel you are consuming. With that tool you can check on improvements. I know with the scangauge when the engine goes into "closed loop" which is basicly when the choke kicks off and the truck optimizes the fuel mixture. This happens at 134 degrees water temperature on my 98 GM. Lots of extra fuel is burned when the choke is on and the engine cold. MPG is very bad during warm up. I only drive 8 miles to work so about half of my commute driving is with the choke on and very low MPG. I plan to install an engine block heater and consume the one or two KwH to warm the engine into closed loop every time possible to eliminate the choke. I researched the idea with the hypermiler guys and they have already figured it out with actual good results. Block heaters are cheap and will pay for themselves with better mpg long before any aftermarket gadget will. Added benefits of cleaner emissions, warmer cabin, and easier life on engine. 

Any thoughts? I already run maximum sidewall pressure in the tires, removed the bug guard, and fresh tune. Mud flaps are still on and are detrimental to MPG.


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## Highbeam (May 31, 2008)

I would park that 360 dodge. They are well known as the biggest gas hogs of the half ton truck world. Value of the truck is very low. I tow regularly and commute with my half ton GM with 350 and it gets respectable mileage of 11 towing at the max and 15-20 empty. Good enough that I can't justify a small pickup for hauling motorcycles.


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## RedRanger (Jun 1, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Okay guys, on topic but about cars and trucks. First thing is buy one of the scangauge devices so you know how much fuel you are consuming. With that tool you can check on improvements. I know with the scangauge when the engine goes into "closed loop" which is basicly when the choke kicks off and the truck optimizes the fuel mixture. This happens at 134 degrees water temperature on my 98 GM. Lots of extra fuel is burned when the choke is on and the engine cold. MPG is very bad during warm up. I only drive 8 miles to work so about half of my commute driving is with the choke on and very low MPG. I plan to install an engine block heater and consume the one or two KwH to warm the engine into closed loop every time possible to eliminate the choke. I researched the idea with the hypermiler guys and they have already figured it out with actual good results. Block heaters are cheap and will pay for themselves with better mpg long before any aftermarket gadget will. Added benefits of cleaner emissions, warmer cabin, and easier life on engine.
> 
> Any thoughts? I already run maximum sidewall pressure in the tires, removed the bug guard, and fresh tune. Mud flaps are still on and are detrimental to MPG.



I dunno highbeam,. think ya can do better.  stop buying those cheap cuts of meat, ya know the spit out ones, stick to T-bones or Porterhouse.. I mean ya can at least eat it all with out any spit outs-(very wasteful).  Other than that, I think, that you my good neighbour to the south of us, is probably on the right track.

Whoops!!  almost forgot, quit buying that watered down yankee beer, and buy the canadian stuff.  only have to drink half as much to get there.  thereby saving tonnes of water usage :lol:


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## Redox (Jun 1, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Okay guys, on topic but about cars and trucks. First thing is buy one of the scangauge devices so you know how much fuel you are consuming. With that tool you can check on improvements. I know with the scangauge when the engine goes into "closed loop" which is basicly when the choke kicks off and the truck optimizes the fuel mixture. This happens at 134 degrees water temperature on my 98 GM. Lots of extra fuel is burned when the choke is on and the engine cold. MPG is very bad during warm up. I only drive 8 miles to work so about half of my commute driving is with the choke on and very low MPG. I plan to install an engine block heater and consume the one or two KwH to warm the engine into closed loop every time possible to eliminate the choke. I researched the idea with the hypermiler guys and they have already figured it out with actual good results. Block heaters are cheap and will pay for themselves with better mpg long before any aftermarket gadget will. Added benefits of cleaner emissions, warmer cabin, and easier life on engine.
> 
> Any thoughts? I already run maximum sidewall pressure in the tires, removed the bug guard, and fresh tune. Mud flaps are still on and are detrimental to MPG.



You have a 98 with a CHOKE?  I don't think GM has used a choke since the mid-late 80s.

Thinking seriously about brewing my own...

Chris


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## KeithO (Jun 1, 2008)

There has certainly been a progression in energy prices, but provided one has a "sensible" commute, the increased cost would not break the budget.   The problem is that many folks idea of a sensible commute stems from the days of $1/gal gas.   Most of the folks at my office have at least a 30 mile commute (one way).  In 2004, virtually all of them were driving an SUV or pickup truck for the commute.  Back then, that commute cost about $223/month.  Today, same vehicle would be over $535/month.  Just by converting to a compact car, they can get the cost down to $250/month.  Then you throw in things like lift clubs etc, which don't work too well when your hours are dictated by what sort of crisis you are trying to resolve on any particular day.

The same people have utility bills for their Mc Mansions (4000 sq ft plus) of $350-$500 per month for nearly 6 months of the year.   And, because they live in such cool and hip neighborhoods, they get to pay over $5000-$7000 in property tax a year.   I won't even start on the mortgage payments for homes in the $430-600k range...  (which is what was paid, not what they are worth...today).  And then one has to add in the cost of private schools for the kids, its like an additional mortgage per head.

My utility bills last winter were never more than $80/month.   Property tax is around $280/month.   Last year was my first burning wood, right after corn and pellets about doubling in price and me sitting on a $3500 white elephant corn burning stove.....   I only bought 1 cord of wood for $135+ $50 delivery, the rest was scrounged.  I have a few different sources of wood for between $40-$60/cord unsplit and I estimate that I have about 3 cord split and stacked already for 2 weekends work.  My goal is to add another 4 cord to provide a buffer for the years to come.

Obviously not everyone can convert to burning wood.  Most of the "nice" neighborhoods have ordinances that prohibit wood piles (or parking the boat/jetski/snowmobile/quad etc) in the garden.  Its all about how you choose to live and what you want to spend your money on.  If you are in a situation where you are not close to work, then certainly one needs to find the most fuel efficient vehicle you can find.   Sometimes, installing a Megasquirt engine ECU and a wideband O2 sensor will allow programming the engine to run leaner under part load and one needs to drive sensibly.  It is the obsession with performance and rapid acceleration that has driven the poor economy of domestic vehicles in the US.   Even MCC with their "Smart" have increased the engine size from the original 600cc to 1000cc for the US market.   The turbodiesel is of course nowhere to be seen (OK to be sold in Canada).   Consumers here are only going to get what they ask for.    When people really get to the point that they are concerned about economy, the pendulum will start swinging back the other way.


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## WoodMann (Jun 1, 2008)

Shane said:
			
		

> What can I do with my '95 Dodge 1/2 ton?  It has the 360.



Throw it into the sea by way of donating it to charity..................


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## webbie (Jun 1, 2008)

Keitho,

The Escalade commercials are pretty telling...

One is a guy saying "Big V8, dripping with chrome, lots of room - heck, if it had a bathroom, I'd live in it"

And another is a woman pushing the gas HARD and saying "The question is only - when you turn your car on, does it return the favor?"

So for the guy, it's like a finished basement with wide screen and pool table and for the gal it's a dildo. Definitely some crass instincts.


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## Highbeam (Jun 1, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All gasoline vehicle engines have a "choke". I use the term loosely because the choke system is now computer controlled to richen the fuel mixture during warmup when in the old carburetor days it was a mechanical system. My 2001 Honda motorcycle has a good ol' manual controlled choke and no fast idle! My 98 pickup is all computer with 4 O2 sensors and plenty of computer controlled fuel injectors. Depsite all of this computer junk, the mileage of our cars have dropped since the carburetor days. They sure last a lot longer though.

The best mpg small pickups available in the US only get 22 mpg. Yippy skippy. They also weigh 3000 lbs. Even that ridiculous smart car with rear wheel drive gets worse mileage than a large VW passat with the TDI. You've got to buy old stuff to get good mpg. Old Honda insight, honda CRX with dual carbs got better than 50!, etc. I'm a bit digusted with this phenomenon.  

All of these gas related costs are a drop in the bucket compared to the mortgage. The mortgage is pretty difficult to control.


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## fossil (Jun 1, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> All gasoline vehicle engines have a "choke"...



Well, not exactly.  My Harley is carbureted rather than fuel injected.  The manually operated "choke" for starting & warmup is actually an "enrichener".  Rather than restricting the airflow to richen the mixture, it opens an additional fuel passage in the carburetor.  The result, of course, is the same...a higher fuel to air ratio, but it's technically not a "choke".  Rick


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## Highbeam (Jun 1, 2008)

fossil said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay okay, the definition of choke is the issue. By choke, I mean cold engine enrichment system. More than one way to get there. My old 4 cylinder VW actually had a 5th fuel injector for this Some lawnmowers depend on a primer bulb only.

The point is that reducing the time that the "choke" is on will increase the overall mpg. This can cheaply be done with a block heater which many folks might already have. Even in the summer.


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## fossil (Jun 1, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> ...Okay okay, the definition of choke is the issue. By choke, I mean cold engine enrichment system. More than one way to get there. My old 4 cylinder VW actually had a 5th fuel injector for this Some lawnmowers depend on a primer bulb only.
> 
> The point is that reducing the time that the "choke" is on will increase the overall mpg. This can cheaply be done with a block heater which many folks might already have. Even in the summer.



I'll buy all that, highbeam...in fact, the stock Harley knob for the enrichener had the little symbol for a choke embossed & painted on it, you know the cross-section view of a pivoted restrictor plate in the intake air passage.  Never heard of a fifth injector, but those Germans _are_ innovators, and just as you say, there are two parameters involved, and the desired result can be achieved by adjusting either (or both).   And, above all, if you don't have to run the mixture rich to keep the engine running, you'll use less fuel in the long run.  Rick


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## begreen (Jun 1, 2008)

I had an old triple carb Jaguar that used the 3d carb for cold start enrichment.


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## fossil (Jun 1, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I had an old triple carb Jaguar that used the 3d carb for cold start enrichment.



Never heard of that one either.  Not precisely related, but I know of builders of retro hot rods, where they want to show off an old flathead or something with 6 2-barrel carburetors or whatever sitting on top, who only hook up one or two of them, the rest are non-functional.  Not building a race car, and the fuel consumption would otherwise be pretty ridiculous.  Rick


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## struggle (Jun 2, 2008)

This spring I sold our 33' 5th wheels camper

Then an hour later sold 2004.5 Dodge diesel ($160 plus to fill up)

Bought a 5'x10' utility trailer to pull behind the minivan to haul wood. (gets 22.4 mpg avg.) 

Two years ago when fuel prices started edging upward I bought a new 05 Dodge Neon 5spd and now it is looking like a better investment then ever. It gets close to 40 mpg on the open flat road. Avg 34-36 daily driven light on the pedal.

Getting ride of the camper and truck is saving a some coin. No camper truck registration. NO insurance on both. No starage fees on camper. Not spending $4.70 a gallon on fuel. No more maintaining the truck or camper. No washing them saves a lot of time for other things I would rather do. 

I felt very lucky to get rid of the camper and selling the truck was just icing on the cake for what the fuel cost. These vehicles were paid for and a loss was taken of course over initial new cost but so is just about everything like this that we buy.  

We will tent camp a few times this summer as a family. Less cost invovled in that and we have had the tents and gear for some time.


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## WoodMann (Jun 2, 2008)

I applaud you Struggle, for thowing all your excesses into the sea............................


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 2, 2008)

I tried putting my shih tzus on a treadmill to run the TV, but the lazy bahstids just lay down.


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## sylvestermcmonkey (Jun 6, 2008)

Well, based on the responses to date, I'm thinking high energy costs haven't been much of a burden to most of us after all. It seems most of the responses have addressed reduction of energy costs _per se_, but I get the impression most of us haven't suffered a reduction of their standard of living to cope with it. This surprises me. 

If this is true I surmise most of us still have plenty of discretionary income, despite record high energy costs. Have I misinterpreted something?


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 6, 2008)

Well being on "hearth.com"- you know that most are already looking at reducing home heating costs.  I can only speak for my house- without bragging- we make a good income and don't think THAT much about it.  The wife drives for work (sales), so that's a hit, but otherwise it's not something that's changed our behavior.  This fuel cost is felt in food and othe rproducts- people with little or no disposable income will feel it first.


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## Highbeam (Jun 6, 2008)

I agree. Oil prices have not made a difference in my family's quality of life yet. If the cost of gas going from 3.20 last year to 4.25 today is enough to break you then you are probably not on this site. Our big ticket expense (mortgage) are fixed and the fuel cost is a relatively small potatoe. The bigger issue I see is employment security which is beyond my control on a daily basis.


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## WoodMann (Jun 6, 2008)

Guess the next question is; how bad will it get, really....................


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## sylvestermcmonkey (Jun 6, 2008)

Spoken like true elitists!


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 6, 2008)

Having some money and not complaining doesn't make you an elitist.  Having money and complaining about costs while others are really suffering would make me a whiner.  

Being honest- I'm still doing OK (you asked- did you want a lie?).  If I denied that anyone should have a problem with cost- then I'd be an elitist


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## Stevebass4 (Jun 6, 2008)

let's see 
installed a new HE oil furnace 85%  used 300 gallons last year and 700 gallons the year before

installed an insert the year before 

buying logs and processing it into firewood  myself 

insulated the attic and walls 

new doors on the house 

biggest thing is learning how to coupon.. sure it's not as manly as cutting up trees with my Husky 272xp BUT the money i save is crazy.  Figure close to 5k last  year between cvs, walgreens, stop and shop and shaws.  there are forums that tell you exactly how to do it and i must have about two years worth of a stock pile in the basement 

next 

new windows and new siding on the house next year and figure out a way to install a LARGE wood stove in the basement next year


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## webbie (Jun 6, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Having some money and not complaining doesn't make you an elitist.  Having money and complaining about costs while others are really suffering would make me a whiner.
> 
> Being honest- I'm still doing OK (you asked- did you want a lie?).  If I denied that anyone should have a problem with cost- then I'd be an elitist



Adios, don't you know everyone wants to be lied to????

I agree with your definition of elitist....if there even is one. 

Basically, we can separate 95% + of people into two categories:
Those who have money or think they have enough
Those who want to be in the first group, but are not.

Luckily for our society, many very rich folks are giving back loads of their $$ to those less fortunate. Although I am not among the "very rich", I am certainly at comfortable and above....which is why I rarely, if ever, complain about taxes or programs which help others. 

Of course, I - along with every other saver and earner in this country - am now worth less (in theory) every day. 

But, since lying is so in vogue, let me try this one - "Hearth.com is broke and unable to provide services - please help us now by sending money".......

 ;-P


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## Kankujoe (Jun 8, 2008)

One of the main things I've been doing is researching forums like this one. Great information! 

Heating fuel (propane) costs bit me in the butt pretty good this past winter so I'm looking for an alternative. Since I basically live in the woods (60 acres of mostly timber) I thought that I should start using firewood instead of giving away truckloads of the stuff. I built my home about 13.5 years ago with R19 in the walls (2x6) and R38 in the attic (1 1/2 story home), used Weathershield & Pella windows throughout, and have what are supposed to be high efficiency furnace (Lenox) and HWH (AO Smith) but I really don't want to spend 2.5-3K (current cost) per year for propane. I'm also going to be adding a radiant barrier to my attic rafters and will be installing an attic fan and more venting. I'm trying to reduce both heating and cooling.

Both me and the Mrs. drive Jeep Grand Cherokees w/ 5.7L hemi's (so that is an ouch!) but they are too new (2005 & 2007) to sell w/o taking a several thousand dollar hit (the good thing is that they do get 17-22 mpg & most of our driving is highway). We also have a small Toyota Tacoma pickup for running around. We have modified driving habits (mostly 55-60 mph) which seems to irritate all the speed demons on the road. We plan our errands & shopping trips better and now factor in driving costs. All vehicles now have locking gas caps.

The biggest hit to our lifestyle thus far is reducing our travel & eating out. Doing more camping, cycling and outdoor activities. We making major efforts to eliminate debt and put up some non-perishable supplies for any short-term crisis. I'd like to begin gardening but I fear all the critters will consume my efforts. With what I'm learning about woodburning boilers I may use one to heat both my home and a (future) greenhouse? I may add some livestock to the mix (I have the land but don't have the knowledge, yet).

My biggest fear right now is the uncertainty of how people will react if/when they can't afford fuel or food. My kids are most likely in that boat (unprepared & maxed out). So many people are so used to having what they want (& right now) that I fear when they begin to suffer they will just try to take it from those they preceive have it!


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## Todd (Jun 9, 2008)

Anyone ever look into those "run your car on water" sites. I guess they are some kind of hydrogen cell car kit? 100 miles on 6oz of water? Why doesn't everyone have one?

Things I've done to cope,
Slowed down when driving, put nitrogen in tires, and car pool to save gas. The wife walks or rides a bike 2 miles to work. Cut down on those un needed trips for a loaf of bread or gallon of milk.

Added insulation and updating windows to house. Scrounge all my firewood, don't buy any. Use solar lighting for living room and family room.

Eating at home, not much going out anymore. Make my own beer and mead, but have been doing that for years.


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## R&D Guy (Jun 9, 2008)

I've really enjoyed this thread and I've walked away with a few good ideas from you guys.


*First few idea's I've implemented although as you'll see mine are almost all gas price related:*

- Topped off the air on all vehicles at or just under Max cold PSI.

- Replaced car air filters.

- Driving our little rice burner whenever possible.

- Moving to drip coffee instead of Starbucks everyday.


*Things I plan on doing:*

- More research on "Hypermile" techniques.

- Considering buying a ScanGaugeII for my 1/2 ton to validate Hypermile techniques.

- Clean the coils on my fridge (hadn't thought of that one - thanks!).

- Hang the wet clothes on a clothes line this summer.


These are the easy ones I can do.  I'll look for more ideas as this thread grows.


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## pdboilermaker (Jun 9, 2008)

1.  Just this week parked h3 until winter now driving new SMART 4-2 to work savings about $200.00/month Savings pays for car.  Had ordered car May 15th last year and it came in last week, now they are saying 18-24 month wait.  (Maybe I'll profit take on EBAY like others are doing, $4000.00 profit could buy a lot of gas for my Hummer)
2.  3 years ago bought Woodmaster 4400 to heat house and water saving about $2500/year when I bought it probably saving about $3000/year now
3.  Looking at wind turbines but pay off is about 9 years
4.  Have only cfls
5.  Added auto light switches where practical
6.  Changed to a cheaper brand of chewing tobacco saving about $10.00/week
7.  Using the cloths line rather than the dryer when possible
8.  Avoiding using the central air, open windows when possible saving about $500.00/year
9.  Raising my own calves 2 for the family to cover us a year saving about $600/year
10.  Started ordering water when we go out to eat unless coke is included in meal for the 6 of us it saves about $9.60 / meal
11.  Car pooling to kids baseball, fieldtrips, Scout functions etc.


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## eba1225 (Jun 10, 2008)

Well lets see,

Added a layer of r19 to the attic bringing it up to r33,
Installed my Lopi Insert in Sep.
Scrounge wood,
Drive only when needed,
Planted a large garden with plants I started from seed,
Built a Solar panel to heat the neighbors pool and then to use to provide addional heat in the basement,
Install CFLs when incad's burn out,
don't go out on the boat as much.

Forgot one: Dumped the phone Company (Verizon)[$30/mo] and went with Majic Jack [$20/yr].

Erik


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## Jags (Jun 10, 2008)

eba1225 said:
			
		

> Built a Solar panel to heat the neighbors pool
> 
> Erik



I need to get me a neighbor like that.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 11, 2008)

My house stays so much cooler by opening all windows at night, then shutting them during the day. Having several large shade trees around really helps in summer as well as winter (they act as a wind break).  If I ever wanted to do solar, I'd need to take the trees down- so there's a big tradeoff.


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## modemgirl (Jun 13, 2008)

WOW you all have been really cutting back!  Lets see, what have I been doing to cope with the energy cost? I drive slower, coast on hills, only run my AC when coasting down hills.  I'm thinking about getting one of those 3 wheel bicycles with a big basket on the front with an electric motor so I can use it for my grocery shopping and errands.   I encourage my family to use the pool for bathing instead of taking showers.   I groom my dogs myself when I can catch them.  I let the dogs lick the dishes to save on using the dishwasher   I wash my car at the gas station with the window washer (figure I should get something extra for my $85.00 fill up).   I make sure I do my grocery shopping on the days they give out free samples so I can get a free lunch.  I'm having a staycation (stay at home vacation)for the fourth of July.  I buy all my families clothes at the dollar store, heck I buy everything at the dollar store!  I never need to get my nails done anymore, I bite them from worry!  I even save on clipping the dogs nails cuz I bite them too lol 

Just thought we all needed a little humor and laughter, laughing is good for the soul and it doesn't take oil to fuel it, so it's FREE  
Krissy


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## TMonter (Jun 13, 2008)

Just replaced the water heater again after 2.5 years since it had a manufacturing defect and the tank started leaking. Should put me back to 25 therms of gas per month instead of 31 or so. A little bonus is the new heater is more efficient than the old one. 0.65 EF instead of 0.62 EF.

Still the 75 Dollars in parts I added to clean up the install didn't make me very happy.

I'll likely add more windows this year to the house and get rid of the old aluminum frames still left.


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## sinnian (Jun 13, 2008)

Traded in my wife's Jeep and bought a RAV4 = extra 10-11 miles per gallon (we live a mile in on a dirt road, i.e. need the 4/AWD).

Added $3k worth of insulation year and a half ago, so now everything is up to today's standards.

Found a teaching job closer to home this year (8 miles versus 37 miles one-way).

Bought my in-laws programmable thermostats and installed them.

groan at my wife every time she leaves the tv AND lights on in every room!

Ordered a Traeger PB 150 pellet boiler and 6 tons (so far) of pellets.

Hang clothes outside to dry, when practical

Use CFL lightbulbs

Found this great sight!


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## modemgirl (Jun 14, 2008)

I have a 2003  GMC ENVOY, I NEVER owned a SUV before 2003, I only bought one because I felt unsafe with all the BIG trucks and SUV's on the road, I had a hard time seeing over and around them.  I wish I would have kept my smaller sedan now.  I can't afford to trade it in, I would lose too much $$$.  My truck has a feature that lets you see the mpg you are getting while you drive.  I have increased my average mileage from 17 mpg to 24.6 with my new driving habits. I just started changing my habits three weeks ago. My goal is to hit 30 mpg, not bad considering I am suppose to get 18 city and 21 highway.  I drive half city and half highway.  here's what I have done so far to increase my mileage.  

1. I don't idle for more then a minute or I turn off the engine 
2. I start out slow and use steady but lite pressure on the pedal at all times.
3. I have slowed down to 60 mph on the highway when it's safe to do so. 
4. I coast on hills, (I have gotten up to 94 mpg when doing this)
5. I don't use the AC unless It hits 85 degrees
6. I DON'T use cruise control, I have found I don't get better mpg when coasting on hills.
7. I time the lights when I can so I don't need to stop, if I see a light has turned red ahead I start coasting. 
8. I don't carry extra weight that is not needed.
9. I check my tire pressure often to keep proper tire pressure. 
10. I will have my air filter changed at my next service. 

I will continue to look for more ways to save on gas for my SUV 

At $4.00 per gallon, driving 10,000 miles per year;

If I average 30 mpg, I wll be saving roughly $1000. per year (saving 255 gallons of gas)
If I average 25 mpg, I will be saving $752. (saving 188 gallons of gas)

If anyone is interested and your auto doesn't have the feature to show you what you average and in real time
they do have a gadget you just plug in, I don't know how much these cost.


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## webbie (Jun 14, 2008)

BTW, modem,
some of those actions may not increase your mileage....

AC can be a wash, because when your windows are open (instead), that creates more drag.
The air filter thing is pretty much a ruse.......that was from the "old" days of carbs and also engines that threw off a lot of mess

The others seem good - although I think cruise control may be effective on relatively flat highways.

I would like to get one of those plug-in MPG meters...just for fun. I am always light on the gas, etc. and it would be interesting to see what the result is. Lately, like you, I have started turning the car off instead of idling.....like at the bank drive-in window. 

Selling a car is usually not the right step for a number of reasons, the most obvious being that someone else will end up driving it...maybe worse than you do. Stretching the MPG as you are doing is much more effective. Heck, you would buy a Lexus Hybrid crossover and get worse mileage than you are getting now.


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## tinkabranc (Jun 14, 2008)

A couple of years ago, my neighbor wasted no time ribbing me
any chance he could because my SUV is a 4cyl, 5-speed with 
front wheel drive.  Pretty peppy for a 4banger.

Note: He has two chevy Tahoes.

Well..Who is laughing now?...now its my turn to return the favor.
My truck gets about 25mpg while his gets MAYBE 18mpg

EDIT:  I know where there are two chevy Tahoes for sale if anyone
is interested... ;-)


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## precaud (Jun 14, 2008)

tink, I got the same treatment from a friend 3 years ago when I sold my F150 and ordered a new Ford Ranger with 7 foot bed, HD load package, 4cyl/5 spd, and put a header on it. The 7 ft bed gives me 90% of the capacity the F150 had. That same year he bought a new 2005 Dodge dually, hemi V8, auto tranny 11mpg monster. I told him he would soon regret it - he communtes 26 miles each way to work in it. He laughed. Stupid. Now he can't believe the mileage I'm getting.

I filled up yesterday -  318.5 miles on 10.38 ga = 30.68 mpg! That's 35% hwy, 65% city driving, the highway trip was with a 650 lb. load. 

Show me another truck that will carry 1/3+ cord of wood and give 30mpg+ doing it!

PS - the Ranger is being discontinued this year by Ford... idiots! Order one now while you can. It's the greenest truck on the planet, and very well built.


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## WoodMann (Jun 14, 2008)

Beg to differ there on the airfilter, Craig. Remember when I wanted to throw my Siera into the sea? That was when I hadda dirty airfilter and my mileage was suffering as a result. Yes, I can attest- I cleaned the air filter one day, just for kicks, it's a FRAM Air Hog- and it didn't look that dirty really. Immediately after cleaning the truck didn't drive any differently but as the days went on there was a noticeable difference. Yeah- I am still thinkin' a little about shoe- horning a V8 into that Sonoma........


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## Telco (Jun 14, 2008)

Webmaster - I didn't start that last one, just defended myself   



			
				WoodMann said:
			
		

> Sure thing Telco. It's a 2001. For further information, I've tuned it with HP tuners, tweaked the ignition timming tables and have done away with the Torque management. That alone made it a whole new truck, oh yeah, and with new Iridium spark plugs. Cleaned my FRAM Air Hog the other day and it made a notiveable improvement in mileage. That's what I've got/ done but I'm all ears to any other improvements..............
> 
> Edit; I have thought about taking out the rear blocks and decranking to torsion bars to drop the front an inch making the truck look like a 2wd but concluded that the endeavor wouldn't be worth it either as I don't drive fast enough and the potential drivtrain/ alignment issues that could arise..................



I'm not familiar with the HP Tuners, I use EFI Live myself.  Just with programming on EFI Live though, I was able to net a 5MPG increase on my dad's 2000 Silverado 5.3L by bumping up the timing tables a bit, and lowering the set points on the front O2 sensors a bit.  I also tweaked the shifting to lower the shift RPMs under low end throttle.  On the other hand, when you are into it it'll downshift from 4th to 2nd at 80MPH and flat out flies now.  The main thing on adjusting the O2 sensors is the computer will interpret what it sees to lean it out, because it'll think that 14.7 is supposed to be at a lower voltage, so you've also got to turn off the option that lets the computer use the O2 sensors to manage the fuel/air mix under WOT.  I spent several months trying to chase down WOT knock because of this.  At any rate, when I picked the truck up (my dad was kind enough to loan me the truck for about 6 months while I worked on my own) it got 19MPG on the highway, strict 70MPH driving with no WOTs, to almost 24MPG running 75MPH with several WOT runs.  What's bad here is I discovered the WOT O2 usage on the last day of tuning, and the quick tune I threw in right before taking the truck home netted this mileage for me, with NO KNOCK.  I will admit though, I learned so much more trying to eliminate the knocking with that field checked, that I'd not have learned if I'd found it first.  I may not have gotten the results I did without working through that frustration.

Were I to own the truck myself, the truck (with a 5.3L auto) would be getting long tube headers with a true dual 2.25 inch pipe exhaust, with a crossover pipe, a set of electric fans, and a tonneau cover.  I figure that if I could get my dad to do these three things, he'd be able to see 30MPG out of his truck on the highway.  I've installed the electrics on two different vehicles, saw a 2MPG increase on one and a 5MPG increase on the other, and tonneaus are supposed to be good for a mile or two per gallon.  I think that were he to make these changes, I could then tweak the program to take the changes into account, 30MPG would be an easy target to hit.


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## modemgirl (Jun 14, 2008)

Craig,
I have read about having the windows down giving more drag. I put my windows down about a quarter of the way and cracked the back windows ( this prevents a lot of wind drag) when I'm on the highway and I have the windows down all the way when I'm in city driving. I tested the mpg on the highway using both methods and I got better mpg not using the AC ( I did this on flat road surface, same conditions, same speed). I will keep testing and checking the use of AC and let you know more later. I agree with you about using cruise control on flat surface roads. I did find when I used cruise control going down hills it prevented better mileage. I can really get awesome mileage when coasting on any slope, or even just coasting to a traffic light or stop sign. I was amazed at how good you can get under those conditions. I'm sure if everyone changed their driving habits we would really save a ton on oil. I didn't find that changing those few driving habits was a big deal to me. I actually found driving easier I didn't need to brake as much . I'm going to let my GMC dealer know and show them my average mpg when I go there next month for service, hopefully I can get my average mpg up to 30 by then. About the air filter change, I did read and saw it on the news about changing your air filter often for better gas mileage. I was wondering if this was really not necessary, so do you think I really don't need to do this? Thanks for your input on my post. 
I will let you know my progress on my mpg. My goal is to get 30 mpg! 
Krissy


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## WoodMann (Jun 14, 2008)

Hey Telco- thanks for the input. I'm planning on going e-fans, infact I have'em sitting on the bench in the garage, they're off a Camaro. BTW- my truck is a 4x4- but all things considered I'm very very pleased with the mileae I'm getting. I know my tires are too big; 275/70R16, stockers were 245/75R16. I'm thinking 265/70R16, they're just as tall as the 245's and about an inch wider for a meattier look, and, yeah- I'm still entertaining the drop...................

Eidt; my best run was from Santa Fe, NM to Sayre, OK or a bit further on a tank of gas, with a 400lb ATV in the bed.............


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## Telco (Jun 14, 2008)

Consider 265/75R16s, they will fill the wheelwell better.  With your programmer you can correct the tire size, and this will have the effect of lowering the rear end ratio without the 1600 dollar fee for replacing hard parts.


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## WoodMann (Jun 14, 2008)

At one time I did consider the 265/75R16's but they're even taller than the 275/70R16's. Who knows, I may even go back to the 245/75R16's for cost's sake..................

Side note, I've also done 106mph at 2930rpm, 4th gear, yeah- I took the governor off.........


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## sapratt (Jun 14, 2008)

We paid off credit cards and canceled them all dropped kids life insurance pretty much quit going out to eat.  We buy our meat in bulk from the meat market.  We can't really get a smaller vehicle than a mini van have 4 kids. Wood stove will be installed this summer sometime.  We are slowly cutting things to be able to pay bills.  If the feds would allow us to drill for oil the price of oil would come down. They should do that at the same time looking into alternate energy. Then when technology allows then new enrgy to be cheap enough for everyone to afford switch.  
But you have to keep the enviromentist to stop blocking everything. When I say everything I mean drilling for now, The wind turbines that they say not to put up because it might the some animals.  We have found a way to produce energy from the waves in the ocean but we can't do that either because it might hurt some animals.  So its kind of frusterating if you think about it everything we could do we can't.
Because someone is saying no.


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## begreen (Jun 15, 2008)

precaud said:
			
		

> tink, I got the same treatment from a friend 3 years ago when I sold my F150 and ordered a new Ford Ranger with 7 foot bed, HD load package, 4cyl/5 spd, and put a header on it. The 7 ft bed gives me 90% of the capacity the F150 had. That same year he bought a new 2005 Dodge dually, hemi V8, auto tranny 11mpg monster. I told him he would soon regret it - he communtes 26 miles each way to work in it. He laughed. Stupid. Now he can't believe the mileage I'm getting.
> 
> I filled up yesterday -  318.5 miles on 10.38 ga = 30.68 mpg! That's 35% hwy, 65% city driving, the highway trip was with a 650 lb. load.
> 
> ...



I'm on my second Ranger. The first was totally manual 4cyl, nothing on the engine except the fan and alternator. No power steering, nada. On a trip if you went easy on it, it would get a steady 33-34mpg with no mods. The one I have now has power steering so my wife can drive it, but it will flirt with 30 mpg pretty easily. Good trucks, made by Mazda aren't they?


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## drizler (Jun 15, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> precaud said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Is that with or without 4 WD?    I never was a fan of it except with pickups which if you live in slop country like I do are about as useless as tits on a bull without it.    Man, my old camaro's handled better than 2WD trucks on snow  and thats not much to brag about.


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## RedRanger (Jun 15, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> [quote author="precaud" date="1213470311"
> 
> I'm on my second Ranger. The first was totally manual 4cyl, nothing on the engine except the fan and alternator. No power steering, nada. On a trip if you went easy on it, it would get a steady 33-34mpg with no mods. The one I have now has power steering so my wife can drive it, but it will flirt with 30 mpg pretty easily. Good trucks, made by Mazda aren't they?



BG:  I`m still loving my Mazda B2200 pickup.  that I know for sure with the carb is still a mazda. and 30+ per gallon.  I think maybe you have the scene backwards though, since 1994 I think the Mazda`s are just Ford Rangers in disguise?  Perhaps, someone else can chime in.? PS: you wouldn`t believe how many guys have just walked right up to me and asked if I wanted to sell it!!  I just say--"no way"  until they start building them again, it`s irreplaceable..

Which begs the question?   nice little truck, great gas milage.  very little problems.   what the hell??   why not start reproducing them.??  Oh, yea, tried emailing Ford and Mazda, and yep, no response!!


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## begreen (Jun 15, 2008)

Could very well be I have it back-asswards. I remember them being related to the B2600? or something like that.


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## precaud (Jun 15, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Good trucks, made by Mazda aren't they?


Engine/drive train was Mazda-designed, but built by Ford in St. Paul, MN.


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## Redox (Jun 15, 2008)

Yes, they are built by Ford and sold as Mazda's.  They once sold them with a Mitsubishi diesel, but not very many produced.

Chris


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## Ken45 (Jun 16, 2008)

kooP said:
			
		

> iran has oil but inadequate refineries.



Just like the U.S.  Oh we also have crude oil but are unwilling to allow drilling for it.

As for selling the car and buying something more "efficient", that may not be wise.   We did that in 1980 and it was a mistake.  The $30 or so we saved on gas was overwhelmed by what we added in car payments.   Also, I'm not convinced that buying an "efficient" vehicle helps the environment.  Building a new vehicle takes a LOT of energy and produces a lot of emissions and waste.  Using what we have may be the better economical and environmental approach.

What have we done to reduce costs?   Less driving, eliminated any plans for a vacation or moderate distance trip.  I also hold the speed down to the limit most of the time instead of 3-4 mph over the limit.

Ken


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## Highbeam (Jun 16, 2008)

The little doodad that you plug into your 1996 or newer OBD2 equipped (just about every vehicle with a computer) is called a scan gauge. I bought one several months ago for aobut 160$. It gives instant mpg readings as well as many many other useful bits of information. Bloody great doodad.


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## begreen (Jun 16, 2008)

Ken45 said:
			
		

> kooP said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tell that to the folks in North Dakota with hundreds of these going in.


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## JustWood (Jun 16, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Ken45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We've had thosands of these pumpers sitting dormant in our area for many,many years.  Slather Azz land and well owners did't grease paint or maintain a thing for years because oil prices were so low. NOW oil is sky high and the pumpers,lines and tanks are seized up or rotted out  from corrosion and non use. Their all crying the blues cause the wait list for a new pumper and service men to repair the pumpers and lines is longer than the equator.  The old saying "an ounce of prevention" comes to mind.

 I have a wood customer that builds these pumpers and has an open order for as many as he can build. Has about 8-10 guys in his shop and is building and shipping 3 or 4/day for the last 2 years.It takes 30 cord/winter to heat his shop! And you guys thought you burned alot.


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## Ken45 (Jun 16, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Ken45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh there is a small amout of drilling going on, but we refuse to drill in our country like we want other countries to open the spigots in their countries. Meanwhile, we refuse to open up more of Alaska or the coastal areas?  How about the ridiculous delays on shale oil?

The speach below by Senator Hatch says a lot of things pretty plainly:

http://hatch.senate.gov/public/inde...ease_id=79a0cca6-1b78-be3e-e0c9-d0cac3675d12/

Ken


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## begreen (Jun 16, 2008)

Have you looked at the size and scale of the Bakken Reserve in the Dakotas? It's huge and they're installing drilling rigs at capacity right now. Drilling is happening big time there:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2004463348_dakotaoil07.html

The drilling in the Gulf and Alaska are drops in the bucket comparatively and way more expensive. They are good poster children for politicians but in fact riskier propositions. Best to leave that for the next generation and for this generation to go on a diet. 

Same for gas in Wyoming. There are thousands of new wells put in the last decade. Environmentally a disaster, but hey, it's Cheney's home state right? Google the Jonah field to see what it looks like from space.


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## Turbozcs2003 (Jun 17, 2008)

Be Green

So your saying the oil companies are pulling a scam??

Lets call their card and allow them to drill.  I am sure if there isnt much oil there they wont bother but something tells me that if they view it as profitable they will be there in force.

Per not drilling, let us allow the Chinese and Cubans to steal all our oil off the coast of Florida.


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## RedRanger (Jun 17, 2008)

TurboZ said:
			
		

> Be Green
> 
> So your saying the oil companies are pulling a scam??
> 
> ...



I will state this for the second time on this forum.  two/thirds of all new refining capacity in the US is geared towards handling the tar sands.  why would the big corps be doing that if drilling somewhere else is so much more profitable?  Let me answer it for you. these big guys see the writing on the wall.  tar sands more expensive, but reliable, equals more profits, and there is decades of it too boot!!

You know the old saying-"a bird in the hand". :coolcheese:   And you are gonna have to get used to paying for the (bird in the hand)!!


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## Burn-1 (Jun 17, 2008)

TurboZ said:
			
		

> Per not drilling, let us allow the *Chinese and Cubans *to steal all our oil off the coast of Florida.



Enough with the Chi-coms. That is a well discredited canard. If Dick Cheney's office apologized for it, I'm pretty sure it's a load of crap.



> "...It is our understanding that, although Cuba has leased out exploration blocks 60 miles off the coast of southern Florida, which is closer than American firms are allowed to operate in that area, *no Chinese firm is drilling there*," according to the statement.
> 
> Cuba clearly is interested in developing its deep-water oil resources, estimated at more than 5 billion barrel, including areas within 60 miles of Key West, Fla., energy experts said.
> 
> Jorge Pinon, a senior energy fellow at the University of Miami specializing in Latin America, said Cuba has awarded offshore oil leases, or concessionary blocs, in its offshore waters to six oil companies — *none of them Chinese *— and soon may announce an agreement with Brazil's state oil company, Petrobras..."



There is no way to drill ourselves out of this crisis. Besides, there's all the oil we need under Gull Island. I saw it on Youtube


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## begreen (Jun 17, 2008)

TurboZ said:
			
		

> Be Green
> 
> So your saying the oil companies are pulling a scam??
> 
> ...



Er, no. I never said any such thing. Is Rush blabbing in the background on the radio?

As for Cuban and Chinese drilling in the Gulf of Mexico... is this really an issue?


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## WoodMann (Jun 17, 2008)

Ken45 said:
			
		

> Oh there is a small amout of drilling going on, but we refuse to drill in our country like we want other countries to open the spigots in their countries. Meanwhile, we refuse to open up more of Alaska or the coastal areas?
> Ken



Gotta look at the big picture here, we'r ekeeping everything pristine so when we hand over the keys to our conquerers they can thrash everything. Let's hope they like it, eh.........


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## webbie (Jun 17, 2008)

Uh, what about handing over the keys to our children and future generations?

Don't they deserve just a tiny bit of the oil and environment, or does it all belong to those who are alive at this moment?


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## webbie (Jun 17, 2008)

The idea of drilling ourselves out of this is a big talking point which is pumped by the same folks who pump the answer to our economic crisis as "lower corporate taxes". As with most propaganda, it has a tiny bit of truth in it.....just enough. But the same "talking heads" seem to be leaving out the fact that we can save 50% on our energy use by conservation and similar technologies, MORE than enough to replace every drop of imported oil, and vastly more than you would ever get by sucking every well dry.

But why don't you hear a lot about this? Maybe because it requires work?


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## Ken45 (Jun 17, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Uh, what about handing over the keys to our children and future generations?
> 
> Don't they deserve just a tiny bit of the oil and environment, or does it all belong to those who are alive at this moment?



There is plenty of oil available to last many generations.  Just not CHEAP oil.  

As long as the Saudis, etc. know that we won't drill our own oil, they are content to keep prices up and rake in the money.  I think it's quite possible that if they believed we were going to get serious about energy independence, crude oil prices would come down so as to discourage such independence.  Remember, back in the 80's when we started the shale oil project++s, etc., crude prices dropped, making the projects uneconomical.

Craig, you seem to think that any oil drilling will totally destroy the environment for future generations.  That's a poor canard.  We have plenty of regulations in place to protect the environment.  And, over time, new technology will allow us to find more and more oil.  Back around 1978, a cabinet level secretary (Secretary of Energy or Transportation?) publicly assured the country that the world would run out of oil in just a few years (8-10 IIRC).  Today's warnings are no more accurate.

Ken


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## Telco (Jun 17, 2008)

The whole idea of there only being so much oil, then no more is also bull.  They have detected hydrocarbon deposits on other planets, does this mean that the dinosaurs had space travel and populated other planets en masse?  Not to mention that the oil we've already used can't be accounted for if every single bit of life on this planet since it began were to have been converted into oil, instead of being converted to other life, fossils, ect.  On top of this, if oil were made from dinosuars then surely we'd have found deposits of it in an "in between" state, where it's not quite crude and not quite dinosaurs.  And further, oil has been found (found but not drilled for) tens of thousands of feet deeper than the deepest known fossil.  And still on top of this, oil fields that have been pumped dry decades ago have been found to be full of oil again.  And yet more, oil has been found underneath water, when oil floats on water.  How did this oil get under the water, both ground and oceanic water?  We use water to float oil in the ground to recover more oil from a well.  All this information comes from various sources on the internet, some of them government sites.

From all this, I have to draw the conclusion that petroleum is a naturally formed byproduct of a planetary body which means it's always being made.  The whole "oil from dinosaurs" idea likely came from finding fossil debris when oil was pumped up.  Some oil company exec probably realized that if they made this idea "common knowledge" that everyone would accept the idea of peak oil, oil as a limited resource, only so much to go around, ect, which is a mental price support.  If it were commonly known that the planet is always making more hydrocarbons in that gigantic chemical pressure cooker we call the planet's core, and that we will not run out as long as there's still a planet Earth, then the limited resource price support would be gone and oil would be worth pennies on the dollar.  Consider salt, which is very common, has been mined practically since time began, yet still sells for 89 cents a pound in the grocery store.  Most of that cost is the cost of extraction, packaging, transportation and profit.  If oil were to sell the same way, ie for the cost of extraction, processing, transportation and profit, then the actual cost would be some 20-30 dollars a barrel even today.  

I know I'll be zinged for this, but I'd be willing to bet that the price of oil is about to hit a peak, and the bubble will break like it did for the dot coms and the telecoms.  Wall Street has learned of the bubble and has figured out that they can make tons of dough by picking one of the services and products most needed by people, then running it to the moon.  Once the price is way, way up there, they can sucker in small investors to get in on the boom, then pull the supports out from under them.  I look for this to take place towards the end of next year, maybe the start of the following year.  Before pulling oil down, I see them hyping the ethanol crops, quickly followed by a federal reversal on ethanol requirements, which will cause the corn to fall, with oil right on its heels.  Wish I knew what the next bubble was going to be because now would be the time to be accumulating it.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 17, 2008)

The theory was first formulated in the 1500s.  It's not "dinosaurs" per se, but aquatic algae etc that are thought to have settled, been covered, and then undergone a couple of processes that would lead to oil.  terrestrial plants are thought to produce coal, IIRC.

It should be ovious that oil, whether from plankton/algae, or the processes that you believe- were FORMED underground, so whether it floats on water or not is inconsequential; it was not formed elsewhere or in the water and then sunk.  

I'm curious where you propose the hydrocarbon material that is turned to nat. gas and oil comes from, and if it is "more renewable", as you suggest- what cycle replenishes the carbon bank necessary to feed your pressure cooker.

I'm interested to see datat pointing to large hydrocarbon deposits on other planets as well.  That's interesting stuff.


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## pdboilermaker (Jun 17, 2008)

Perhaps unpopular but I say "Drive an oil rig bit through a baby seals head if it gets me cheap gas"


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## WoodMann (Jun 17, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Uh, what about handing over the keys to our children and future generations?
> 
> Don't they deserve just a tiny bit of the oil and environment, or does it all belong to those who are alive at this moment?



That's a nice thought and all, Craig, but the way our gooberment is spending and dumping all our debt on everyone else it won't be long B4 the bell tolls................


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## Highbeam (Jun 17, 2008)

pdboilermaker said:
			
		

> Perhaps unpopular but I say "Drive an oil rig bit through a baby seals head if it gets me cheap gas"



What good did a seal ever do for me? I guess a seal is reponsible for the whole saying associated with plumbers.... Did it pass the walrus test? You know, every walrus likes a nice tight seal 

As of today, I have a whole house worth of energy star rated windows to replace the old, leaky, aluminum framed, single pane windows that have been losing heat way too fast for the last 45 years.


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## WoodMann (Jun 18, 2008)

No no- leave the seals alone, it's the Caribou that thier worried about freaking out and running away to some other location...........


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## Tessa (Jun 18, 2008)

I got lucky (sort of); right before the gas prices really started shooting up (late February) I was rear-ended.  After a three week battle with the offending party's insurance company I finally got the car written off as a "total loss" and since I owed LESS than the value of the car, it was paid off with money to spare.  I bought an '08 Focus 2-door coupe, std. trans.  I get about 37 on the highway, 28-32 in the city.  I've increased mileage by coasting a LOT.  I have the car in neutral almost as often as I have it in gear these days.  I still speed (living in DFW you'll get your butt run down if you go the limit or below), but I don't "hot rod".

I've cut back on a LOT.  I live with my fiance in a 650 sq. ft. apartment.  We run the AC from 6pm when we both get home until around 10 when we go to bed, and have it set on 78.  The rest of the time we circulate tolerable air with an oscillating fan.  We go out to eat once a month when he receives his commission check and buy groceries the rest of the time.  We've gone probably 80% generic on everything we buy and buy in bulk for practicle items (paper products, non-perishables, etc).  I have become a coupon clipper to an almost obsessive degree.  I have club memberships through my employer that I use for discounts whenever possible. 

I've given up on shopping sprees and cancelled my gym membership.  Right now about half of my monthly income goes towards gas alone.  I commute 35 miles one-way to get to work and to get home everyday.  I'm hoping to cut that down to 10 or less as soon as possible, but it's a slow process with so many people being in the "pool" right now looking for work.

The biggest problem for me is that employers haven't done anything to balance an increased cost of living.  Renting prices, gas prices, food and necessity prices...they've all gone up...my income has not.  Rental prices have been up for going on 8 months now.  As long as there is a mortage and buying crisis the demand for rentals will continue to allow rental communities to toy with prices.  Our apartment used to go for 525/month (three months before my boyfriend moved in last year) and we're now paying 750 and staring at a lease renewal that offers a 6% increase per month.

I'm thankful that all of my loans are fixed rate.  With everything being so chaotic right now I'm glad my financial obligations aren't as risky as others.

Sorry for the rant...and on my first post even.


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## webbie (Jun 18, 2008)

Wow, 1/2 of income on gas! That's a killer.......

Really sad that the policies of the past have come home to roost this quickly.


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## Highbeam (Jun 18, 2008)

Wait now, 70 miles per day is two gallons of fuel according to your figures. 52 weeks per year, 260 work days, =520 gallons of gas. At 5$ per gallon thats only 2600$ per year on gasoline for work. Do you only make 5200$ per year? 

Gasoline has gotten more expensive but not that much more expensive.


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## Ken45 (Jun 18, 2008)

Tessa said:
			
		

> As long as there is a mortage and buying crisis the demand for rentals will continue to allow rental communities to toy with prices.  Our apartment used to go for 525/month (three months before my boyfriend moved in last year) and we're now paying 750 and staring at a lease renewal that offers a 6% increase per month.



Ouch!  If the (&^) politicians would quit trying to monkey around with preserving loans on overpriced houses, housing prices would come down to reality and more people could afford them and rental prices would probably come down too.

Do you really mean a 6% increase per month?  That's 72% (plus compounding) per year.  



> Really sad that the policies of the past have come home to roost this quickly.



Yes, that's the rub, changes are too fast for people to adjust to or plan for.  Current gas prices are really in line with inflation since the 70's.   The problem is they have been out of line (low) for so long that the sudden adjustment (earthquake) is too much.

I did see where Bush is calling for an end to restrictions on coastal drilling and more drilling in Alaska.   I don't know if he is sincere or just playing to the crowd.  But of course the Democratic controlled Congress is unlikely to agree.

Ken


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## JustWood (Jun 18, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Wait now, 70 miles per day is two gallons of fuel according to your figures. 52 weeks per year, 260 work days, =520 gallons of gas. At 5$ per gallon thats only 2600$ per year on gasoline for work. Do you only make 5200$ per year?
> 
> Gasoline has gotten more expensive but not that much more expensive.



Probably expendable income.


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## Tessa (Jun 18, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Wait now, 70 miles per day is two gallons of fuel according to your figures. 52 weeks per year, 260 work days, =520 gallons of gas. At 5$ per gallon thats only 2600$ per year on gasoline for work. Do you only make 5200$ per year?
> 
> Gasoline has gotten more expensive but not that much more expensive.



After taxes, deductions, and insurance my checks total $1000 a month.  I have a 10-gallon tank in my car. I'm paying 4.03/gallon right now.  That means each tank is $40.30.  I travel 350 miles a week, which means I use a tank of gas on travel to/from work alone.

Then there's weekend driving and after work errands, which totals about 200 more miles a week.  Most of that is city driving, so at best I'm looking at 32MPG, but more likely I'm getting 27.  That means I'm using 3/4 of a tank on the weekends, so at almost two tanks of gas a week I'm spending 80.60.

Now, 5 weeks in a month, that's $403.00/month in gas. 

 Unfortunately, my car is the more fuel efficient, so mine is the one that's driven during the weekend trips and after work errands.  My fiance only lives 3 miles from work, but he gets about 14mpg in the city.  $40 won't even give him half a tank.


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## Tessa (Jun 18, 2008)

Ken45 said:
			
		

> Tessa said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The form letter was filled out to read 6%/month on the rent increase.  We have 6 weeks to accept the terms and are trying to meet with the property manager to "negotiate" the terms.  In the form letter, cited reasons for the increase were: 

1.  Increase in value of living space in the area.
2.  Increase in demand for housing.
3.  Increase in utilities covered @ fixed rate within the rent (water and trash service).

I'm new to this particular part of DFW, but I'm not new to renting.  Nobody I've talked to seems to think their attempted increase is justified.  We also found out from the assistant to the PM that the apartments are only at 70% capacity and that number has been consistent for the last 4 months....so we're not seeing "demand" from our end.


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## pdboilermaker (Jun 18, 2008)

My Dearest Tessa:

I see that you are from Texas, a fine state, been there many times.  I live in Indiana and I know that we are certianly 1 step off of most others but we only have 4 weeks in a month.

Maybe that explains why I am always late for my meetings in Texas


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## Tessa (Jun 18, 2008)

pdboilermaker said:
			
		

> My Dearest Tessa:
> 
> I see that you are from Texas, a fine state, been there many times.  I live in Indiana and I know that we are certianly 1 step off of most others but we only have 4 weeks in a month.
> 
> Maybe that explains why I am always late for my meetings in Texas



Okay, my mistake.  $322.40 a month, plus a little extra for those add-on days. =oP.

I lived in Indiana for awhile...Fort Wayne to be exact.  I'm very envious of the housing costs up there, or rather, what the housing costs were in 2006.  I still have pictures of one of the most beautiful houses I've ever seen, built smack-dab in the middle of the historic district in Ft. Wayne.  I want that house moved down here and put on a plot of land in hill country.

....if only I could win the lotto without playing.


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## Highbeam (Jun 18, 2008)

1000$ per month for a 70 mile commute. That's a no-go for most. You have a fine opportunity to relocate with the lease expiring. Seriously, you could double your disposable income by moving closer to your job. Your math skills would land you a better paying job here in WA.


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## WoodMann (Jun 19, 2008)

What am I doing to cope, what I have been doing all along. Got my Gas/ Electric bill for last month, $20.05...............


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## Tessa (Jun 19, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> 1000$ per month for a 70 mile commute. That's a no-go for most. You have a fine opportunity to relocate with the lease expiring. Seriously, you could double your disposable income by moving closer to your job. Your math skills would land you a better paying job here in WA.



I'm actually looking to change jobs at the moment.  It's a slow process, as I'm very picky about what I'm willing to spend 1/3 of my day doing.  I live by the belief that you work to live, you do not live to work.  I want something I enjoy, but not something that is going to occupy all of my time, leave me stressed and grumpy, or leave me too exhausted to enjoy down time.  I also realize I'm severely underpaid for my position, having spent the last few weeks looking at similar positions and the salaries that accompany them.


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## Telco (Jun 19, 2008)

Adios Pantalones - Do a search on extraterrestrial hydrocarbons and it comes up with a lot of links where they discuss abiotic organic hydrocarbons, although you'd think that abiotic and organic would be incompatible.  As to the cycle by which it's formed, I'm not a geologist and never had an interest in being one.  Unfortunately I can only spew what I've read about the research of others over the years, not direct research performed by me.  Since the systems I work with at work are so slow and we have periods of time when nothing's broken, I have a lot of time to read news articles while waiting for test systems to get their acts together.  I spend that down time reading news stories on a large variety of subjects, and while I don't want to be a geologist I like reading about what they are up to.

Speaking of stories, we can thank Jimmy Carter for us not being further along with the breeder reactor, as he ordered a stop to research in nuclear fuel reprocessing technology.  Had he not done this, we might not only have nukes that don't produce nuclear waste, we might have a means by which current nuclear waste could be processed into new fuel.  Thanks Carter, you f&**ing idiot!  What other evil have you done that we DON'T know about?  I know people are calling GW Bush America's worst President, but there's no end to the evil and inept bungling of the Carter administration.  And, this may not be a popular opinion here but I think that history will judge Bush as being one of the better ones once the facts are analyzed without the emotions of the times.

Woodmann - Scientists monitored caribou along the Alaska Pipeline looking to document the negative impact of having a pipeline above ground through tundra country, and discovered that the pipeline's net effect on caribou is to become something to rub against when they have an itch.  Otherwise, they don't notice or care about the pipeline.  It's only when there is a breakdown that there is a negative effect, and the way to prevent breakdowns is to ensure those responsible for its upkeep know that they can and will go to jail if a breakdown happens due to lax maintenance, with "I didn't know the work wasn't being done" not allowed as an excuse.  In this case, an ounce of preventions should be worth avoiding a nightly pounding Bubba-style.  

Tessa - From the sound of things, you and your fiancee might do better if you quit working, sold his gas hog and got a new place within walking distance of his job (or vice versa, if you had the higher paying job).  You might come out ahead by quitting work and doing this, AND you can be keeping the house clean and cooking his dinner.  Not to mention that fiancee implies marriage and kids soon to be.  You think gasoline is expensive, wait till you check out the cost of daycare, diapers, and formula.  Whooh!


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## webbie (Jun 19, 2008)

That's pretty funny that people reach back to blame Carter for current messes...heck, that was almost 40 years ago. I guess between FDR, Lincoln, Clinton and Carter...they were responsible for all our woes! Well, it's worked before, who expects anyone to take responsibility now?

The sad fact is that YOU AND ME are the ones solely responsible. We elect representatives and have very short memories. We are the ones that use the energy - not Carter. We are the ones that squander money on adventures around the world while lacking planning right here.

We are the ones who have chased the WRONG idea of the American dream, that being a false happiness gained by using more and more energy and resources. 

If there is such thing as evil - and I tend to call it perversion, as opposed to evil - then that evil is inside each of us. As long as we celebrate crooks...because they are "our" crooks (typical political behavior) and fail to take responsibility for our actions, we will see more of the same. 

When all is said and done, High Energy Costs (thread title) are the best thing that can happen to us. That does not negate short term suffering by just about everyone...including people who don't deserve it. But let me quote the great saying - "Don't do the crime unless you can do the time"...and this relates to energy and consumption also. If we like dirty air, and dirty water, and the tops cut off mountains, and foreign wars and big houses, and big cars, and flying anywhere on a whim, and etc. etc. etc. - well, then we have to pay the piper someday - and/or pass it onto our kids (the debt). We are doing both very well, thank you.


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## Tessa (Jun 19, 2008)

Telco said:
			
		

> Tessa - From the sound of things, you and your fiancee might do better if you quit working, sold his gas hog and got a new place within walking distance of his job (or vice versa, if you had the higher paying job).  You might come out ahead by quitting work and doing this, AND you can be keeping the house clean and cooking his dinner.  Not to mention that fiancee implies marriage and kids soon to be.  You think gasoline is expensive, wait till you check out the cost of daycare, diapers, and formula.  Whooh!



I have my own personal debts I want to pay off before we start depending on one source of income.  I'm not going to hold B responsible for my car note and medical bills and that one fixed rate CC I have sitting pretty with a nice chunk on it.  We've already discussed the whole baby thing, and have decided that barring any "accidents", kids will come when my car is paid off (3.5 years) and no sooner.  An unexpected little present would certainly change things, but in the mean time we both want to pay off and save as much as possible.

Also, I already clean the house and cook dinner.  Most nights, that is.  I came home grumpy on Monday (warned him ahead of time) and he had dinner on the stove and the living area was spotless.

There's a reason I let him tie me down. =o).


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## Telco (Jun 19, 2008)

Blame those who are responsible.  Time may heal all wounds, but it does NOT negate responsibility for actions taken.  By that thinking, we should be holding Angela Merkel responsible for exterminating the Jews in 1945, and giving Hitler a free pass.  After all, that was about 70 years ago, why are we still blaming Hitler?  The reason is, he was responsible for it.  If Carter was responsible for ending federal research into spent nuclear fuel reprocessing, then he would be responsible for the current state of nuclear waste.  Those who did nothing would be accomplices to this state, but Carter is ultimately responsible for it.  Same way Clinton can be held responsible for 9/11 by cutting funding to the CIA which resulted in us not having anyone in place to at least warn of it.  Same way Bush Sr can be blamed for the current state of Iraq by stopping at the edge of Baghdad and leaving Saddam in power.  Iraq would be 10 years further along had Bush Sr finished the job.  This resulted in GW Bush being handed Iraq as a major problem with 8 years of no action by Clinton.  Then GW made his own mistakes by not executing the conclusion of the Iraq war properly.  Even Reagan had his problems in the middle east, and can probably be held responsible for some of the problems.  

The idea that current messes are the fault of current peoples, and not the fault of bad decisions by past peoples is short sighted, and forgets history.  By laying blame where it should lie, then the whole problem can be seen and resolved.  By laying blame for past mistakes on the current office holder, nothing gets done because the current office holder is going to be spending more time fighting erroneous charges than will be spent on the problem.  If McCain wins, I hope he follows through on his nuclear power proposals, AND reverses Carter's policy on nuke fuel reprocessing.  If we can build on what the French have done with breeder reactors, perhaps we can devise a way to use current nuclear waste as fuel which would end the problem of nuclear waste.  And if THAT takes place, then we can replace fossil fuel plants with nuclear plants.  This would go a long way towards both solving our need for more electricity, and cutting fossil fuel usage.

Tessa - Excellent, you've done the research already then.  Since you already need a new place to live then, might still consider finding a place where he can walk to work, then sell the gas guzzler and just use your car.  Saving that 14MPG and the insurance that goes with it would more than pay for an increase in your commute time.


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## webbie (Jun 19, 2008)

Learning from history is something we never do. Each President and Congress makes tens of thousands of decisions and any of them could be blown up to show why they are to blame to everything! For some reason you are not telling us how if Carters solar programs and conservation programs were not scrapped by Reagan, then we might actually have vastly reduced our energy use. You are not talking about how the "ME" generational charge, led by Reagan - and fueled by cheap oil and resources, is to blame for many of our woes. You are not talking about Mideast policy....of which Carter did some vast good with - and which Reagan 100% cut and ran from (Lebanon)...

There are sins of commission and sins of omission and we are guilty of many of both. But I completely disagree with your method for solving problems by looking back to different times and places. This goes against the idea of "it's not what you have, it's what you do with what you have".....and GW definitely did not do much with all the political capital he claimed he had. He squandered it on war. He used it to reward his friends. 

Certainly you cannot blame all worldwide problem on a sitting President. But you CAN ask them to do the best with the hands they are dealt. IMHO, we could not have done worse in that regard with the current guy.......on top of all his bad decision (well, to him and his friends they were good), he presided over a deep rift in American politics - AFTER claiming that he was going to bring honor and unity to the office. 

But I suppose we will never agree on that stuff. My opinion only, but I consider the man immoral, unethical, corrupt and a war criminal. In addition to that, I consider him incapable of thinking deeply about the levels of policy needed to be a successful statesman. Maybe worse that all of these, I consider his attack on our constitution to be treacherous and un-American. I will watch history along with you, but I'll bet only the profiteers will be championing his legacy! 

Other than that, he seems like a good guy to have a beer with and tell fart jokes.


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## modemgirl (Jun 19, 2008)

Tessa, 
     I realize that in Texas the income level is lower then here in MA.  Your rent sounds cheap to us on the east coast.  Rents are $1000. to $3000. very rarely do you see heat included.  It's hard to understand why people would rent vs. buy your own property at average rent for a two bedroom @ $1500.  Homes are much cheaper in Texas, maybe it might be worth purchasing a home instead of renting, or at least shoot for that goal.


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## webbie (Jun 19, 2008)

Now we are really going OT........kids and all.

Funny thing, and probably showing my age (or my religion).....but we gave absolutely no thought to finances before we had children! If we did, we may have never had them. Not saying that financial planning is not good, but just that sometimes things work the other way around. In our case, we had kids and that probably caused me to seek out higher wages and more skills and work my butt off. Not saying that was good - we joke around here sometimes that I am a Beast of Burden.

At the same time, I watch some of these reality TV shows (super-nanny) with these folks popping out 4 rug rats, and say to myself "why the heck did they do that - wouldn't one or two have made things simpler?"

Well, I would not have had it any other way...no regrets. If it wasn't for love and lust (if we had to use our minds to think), we'd probably never have any kids.


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## Redox (Jun 19, 2008)

I gotta agree with modemgirl: The sooner you get out of your rental situation and into something you can start building equity in, the better off you will be.  Even a condo is a step up from endless rent payments that get you nowhere.  There's got to be something you can afford out there...

Chris


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## Tessa (Jun 19, 2008)

modemgirl said:
			
		

> Tessa,
> I realize that in Texas the income level is lower then here in MA.  Your rent sounds cheap to us on the east coast.  Rents are $1000. to $3000. very rarely do you see heat included.  It's hard to understand why people would rent vs. buy your own property at average rent for a two bedroom @ $1500.  Homes are much cheaper in Texas, maybe it might be worth purchasing a home instead of renting, or at least shoot for that goal.



We're waiting for the housing market to stabilize a bit.  I've read a few articles saying that lenders are tightening up on requirements for mortgage loans.  B and I are in our early 20s and have never taken out a large loan before (my car was 15k, that's the most extensive loan).  We're both concerned that trying to get a loan right now would result in an interest rate far beyond "fair and reasonable" and would be out of luck.

We also need to do more research.  Property values in south DFW are stagnating or (in some cases) declining more than they are increasing.  In the northern parts of DFW the values are holding steady or increasing slightly.  We don't want to get into a mortgage and end up upside down because of instabilities.

On another note, Texas is kind of like the middle ground for COL.  We're a lot lower than the east and west coasts, but a big higher than the midwest (especially now that they've become a temporary lake, I'd imagine).  It's been that way for awhile, but in some areas we're seeing a lot of the newly "rich" investing in cookie-cutter mini-mansions and creating towns that cater solely to those with 6 or 7 figure incomes....and they're mixing in with the "middle class" towns and burbs.  If you go into some parts of DFW you'll find that the COL is almost equal to that of say, Boston, while 10 miles down the road you're looking at somebody more relative to Indiana.  

I don't know how it works in other areas, but in DFW we have people that will live in an outlying suburb who commute upwards of 100 miles or more a day to and from a high-paying job in the city.....even though there are similar jobs closer to home.  This area is pretty materialistic.  Dallas has always kind of been known for that.


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## Ken45 (Jun 19, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> I gotta agree with modemgirl: The sooner you get out of your rental situation and into something you can start building equity in, the better off you will be.  Even a condo is a step up from endless rent payments that get you nowhere.  There's got to be something you can afford out there...
> 
> Chris



One does not build equity if home prices stabilize or go down.  Many people have made the foolish assumption that buying a house is a smart financial move.  Millions have been proven wrong.

A home is NOT an investment, it's a place to live, with a lot of expenses.  Sometimes it makes economical sense to purchase a house, sometimes it makes more sense to rent.

I'm not against homeownership at all, I've owned my own home most of the last 40 years.  But we did it with a good percentage down and fixed payments we could afford.

Ken


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## modemgirl (Jun 19, 2008)

I just found a new way to save on gas----- I spend time on this forum instead of going out driving around! lol


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## webbie (Jun 19, 2008)

Don't laugh, modemgirl.......

A lot of the energy we all burn up is to go to the mall, the town square, starbucks, etc. so that we can be part of the "social scene". A lot of additional energy is used up in actual meetings, face to face, etc.

So, yes, the net is part of the solution.......even shopping on the net is less energy intensive.....a truck delivering UPS packages is more efficient than the same package going from the dist center to the stove - sitting on the shelf - and then hauled home in your car.


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## modemgirl (Jun 19, 2008)

Tessa, 
   The closer you are to a city the property value increases.  The banks have tightened up and they should, they can let you know what mortgage you qualify for, they still do have first time buyer programs out there.  The interest rates are low, (even though they have been going up little by little) they are still fairly low. I think you are going to see the rental market keep climbing for awhile, until the housing market stablizes.  I just think renting only benefits the landlord.  

Ken, 

     Owning a home has for the most part, always been a good investment.  The AVERAGE home value doubles in ten years.  Some home values won't increase at this rate.  Although most people will have equity build over time.  You don't just buy a home for an investment, you buy what you can afford and because you love it.  For most Americans their home is their largest investment.  Another asset is, your fixed mortgage won't keep going up.  My mortgage & taxes don't even come close to what they want for rent today and my home has twice the square feet as the average rental.  The downside is, yes you have  maintenance and repairs  to consider & some of these expenses can be high.  It's all a matter of choice and what you want.  Tessa was complaining about how the rentals are charging 6% a month increases, she has three choices, pay the increases, move ( that has moving cost involved) or try to purchase a home, I was just suggesting that option.


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## modemgirl (Jun 19, 2008)

Craig, 
I wasn't laughing to make fun of saving energy. I was laughing just to make lite of the fact that I am spending way too much time on this computer and this forum, instead of doing things that need to be done! So I thought, hey I am saving energy by not using my car ( good excuse not to get things done) lol 
BTW, I don't do much driving for leisure anymore! Only for errands, work and the necessities of life. Craig, I get upset at how things are today but I also need to laugh and have fun so you will find I like to throw in a few jokes from time to time! Life is too short not to laugh and have fun  Laughter is great for the soul and what bothers us   I also like to make others laugh and I would never say anything to offend others or make fun of what others believe in. 

Btw, this is a great place to socialize and read other peoples info and insight  Thanks again to you and all that give your time for us to be here


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## Ken45 (Jun 20, 2008)

modemgirl said:
			
		

> Owning a home has for the most part, always been a good investment.  The AVERAGE home value doubles in ten years.



It's only a good "investment" if you can afford it and buy at a reasonable price.   I think your expectation of doubling in ten years only applies to overpriced markets, which are now coming back down to earth (and in many places, they still have a good distance to drop).   Long term, home prices only rise equal to people's take home pay and that hasn't been doubling in ten years.

Ken


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## begreen (Jun 20, 2008)

Varies from region to region. From the severe 70's recession, until now, the house we had in Seattle more than doubled in price every 10 years. During the dot com boom that became 5 years. Now it's back to maybe 10 years. And ironically, as gas hit over $4, while there is a major decrease in suburban home prices, it's not happening in the city. People are migrating to reduce commute time and expenses. At this rate if I had to wait for the long term I'd be pushing up daisies.

1972 - $33K
1984 - $83K
1994 - $212K
2001 - $640K (new room added, new roof and deck, updated kitchen and bath)
current estimated price ~800K


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## Redox (Jun 20, 2008)

Ken,

I agree that not every home is going to be a good buy right now, but many areas especially the more desireable ones have stopped dropping.  Those are the ones you want to be looking at.  You know, location, location, location!

I live about 2 miles outside the Beltway and our area (a mix of McMansions and older tract housing) hasn't really seen the sharp drop in value that has affected other areas.  I guess I was smart enough to buy a smaller home in a stable area before the bottom fell out.  The dreamers moved way out to the countryside and bought huge "estates" and now have an hour commute, unless there is an accident on the interstate.  I wave at them as I get off at the first exit!

I don't want to sound too smug, but I have never been a follower of the "traditional" American dream.  All my contemporaries have moved out and are now complaining about it.  Right now, I can see some of our older neighbors are seriously considering selling that empty 3-4 bedroom house and moving to a condo or retirement community.  The families are slowly moving back in and this has helped keep our ZIP code stable.  I suspect the situation here may be mirrored in other large metropolises like DFW.  The savvy buyer should keep their eyes open, do the research and already have a good idea on where the financing is going to come from.  Condominiums were in serious decline about 10 years ago when the market was hot, but would be an excellent buy right now, IMHO.  I'm seeing nice ones going for around $150K.  Just make sure you find one that allows wood stoves! :cheese: 

The city of Baltimore is actually seeing a resurgence of new homebuyers as our properties are significantly cheaper than those around DC.  The professionals are moving in and discovering that it's only a short train ride into Washington.  Even Jenna Bush just bought a house down there!  The city of Frederick, to our west has had such a population boom of late that they have moratoriums on new houses as there isn't enough water for everyone.

I gotta go to work now to pay for my palatial "estate".  Headed to the office and then on a call to DC (yes, it's a federal job).  Probably another 100 miles on the 'ol Cavalier, but it's a living...

Chris


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## Telco (Jun 25, 2008)

Some areas haven't dropped at all.  According to Zillow.com my McMansion has been steadily increasing in value over the last 4 years, since I bought it new.  This was right before Katrina hit, which drove the cost of new housing in the Tulsa area up by about 10 grand due to increased materials cost.  In 4 years, value has climbed from 130000 to 160000, and all I've done to it is add an exterior building and a dryer vent booster.  Got a "Make Me Move" price on it of 200,000, which I think it'll be worth in a couple more years as the economy recovers.


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## myzamboni (Jun 25, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> Ken,
> 
> I agree that not every home is going to be a good buy right now, but many areas especially the more desireable ones have stopped dropping.  Those are the ones you want to be looking at.  You know, location, location, location!
> 
> ...



Why not take the Metro when you can.  Used it when I was there a couple months ago and only wish I had something 1/2 as convenient out here.


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## Redox (Jun 26, 2008)

Funny you should mention that!  There was an article in this morning's paper that said the MARC stations are becoming stressed for parking spaces.  Seems that people ARE looking at alternatives, but I suspect that some of this traffic might be from people that have moved here from DC.

I understand DC has a very good Metro system and there is a regional system called MARC that connects Baltimore to DC and all the way out to Martinsburg WV.  It also connects to AMTRAK and BWI Airport.  Baltimore's system isn't nearly as widespread as DC's, but it is possible to get on the bus or subway or light rail in your neighborhood and go to New York or Boston (or anywhere) without ever getting in a car.  I've used the Light Rail to go to baseball games at Camden Yards (named after the train station, BTW) and AMTRAK to go to NYC on business.  I know people that do this to see a show on Broadway or go to Times Square on New Years eve.  It's very convenient and anything that keeps cars off of I-95 is a good thing, IMHO.  As well connected as we are, it wouldn't work for me in my line of business.  I run service and never know where I'll be and what I'll need to have with me in the way of tools and equipment.  I'm still trying to figure out how to run service calls on a motorcycle!

My sister used to live in Gaithersburg west of DC and commuted to Georgetown in a Chevette.  After hearing yet another story about the traffic jams that result from an accident or bad weather, I asked her why she didn't just take the Metro?  She said that after paying to park (yeah, they charge for that!) and the monthly pass, the Chevette was actually cheaper!  This was about 15 years ago and I suspect the situation has probably changed a lot, but you have to be able to put a price on the convenience of not having to deal with traffic.  The traffic around here can be a nightmare! 

I hear BART is a very good system.  Are there any plans on expanding it in the works?  Unfortunately, the State of MD, in their infinite wisdom has decided to invest in more highways, rather than more public transportation.  Nobody wants a subway going throught their neighborhood and Lexus lanes from rich bedroom communities are easier to get past the voters.  Is $4/gal gas enough to get people out of their cars?  I suspect not...

Chris


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## BrotherBart (Jun 26, 2008)

Metro is now full service. Yesterday they busted a station manager and custodian for prostitution. The manager was the pimper and the custodian was the pimpee.


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## Telco (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, I made two changes this week:

1.  My deep freeze took a crap on me.  Luckily it happened the week BEFORE I went to the meat market and not the week AFTER, so I only lost a couple of bags of fries and some old meat that really needed tossing anyway.  Yesterday I ordered a new Energy Star deep freeze to replace it.  The new unit is smaller than the old unit as well, as we really weren't using the old one to capacity.  Should not be a problem with the new one, which is about 4 cu ft smaller.  I'll be drilling a couple of holes in the old one with a wood bit so nobody will be able to suffocate in it, and will pull the door off to boot.

2.  Visited my aunt last week, who was cooking some cornbread with a toaster oven.  She said that she normally cooks with propane, but uses the toaster oven most of the time as it costs less to bake small things with it than the big oven.  Promptly went out and bought a convection toaster oven, and it's great.  Last night I cooked a small pizza from frozen to done faster than it normally takes the big oven to just heat up.  You put the food in, turn the oven on, and it's at 400 degrees in just a few seconds.  It's also big enough to cook 90 percent of the stuff we normally need an oven for, and can even cook a whole chicken rotisserie-style.  We're also going to use the convection oven to replace the deep fryer, so far fries cooked in it have a better taste than the deep fried ones.  If everything we cook in the deep fryer comes out better, then the deep fryer will disappear too.


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## Hansson (Jul 3, 2008)

I have started to mix etahnol in my car tank. 50% gasoline and 50% etahnol.
The gasoline costs over 8 $ gallon :-(

And I have install energy saving light bulbs


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## JustWood (Jul 3, 2008)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Metro is now full service. Yesterday they busted a station manager and custodian for prostitution. The manager was the pimper and the custodian was the pimpee.



Here we go again !   HORN dog.           LOL LOL


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## jebatty (Jul 4, 2008)

We stumbled onto a simple energy saver. We had an unused, reasonably new, chest freezer. We need more refrig space to hold the beer. I bought a line voltage probe thermostat (the kind with a capillary tube/probe) off of ebay for about $10, wired an outlet so that the thermostat would turn on-off the freezer when it is plugged into this outlet, inserted the probe into the freezer, set the temp at 40, and now the freezer cycles between 32-40 and uses a pittance of electricity to keep lots of beer cold. And all that cold stays put when we open the door to grab a cold one.


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## Ken45 (Jul 4, 2008)

jebatty said:
			
		

> We stumbled onto a simple energy saver. We had an unused, reasonably new, chest freezer. We need more refrig space to hold the beer. I bought a line voltage probe thermostat (the kind with a capillary tube/probe) off of ebay for about $10, wired an outlet so that the thermostat would turn on-off the freezer when it is plugged into this outlet, inserted the probe into the freezer, set the temp at 40, and now the freezer cycles between 32-40 and uses a pittance of electricity to keep lots of beer cold. And all that cold stays put when we open the door to grab a cold one.



You would save even more energy if you drank your beer warm like the Europeans do ;-)

Ken


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## Redox (Jul 4, 2008)

Ken45 said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But OUR beer tastes like crap when it's warm.  We could buy imported beer, but I suppose it's cheaper to keep the crap beer cold...

Chris


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## begreen (Jul 4, 2008)

It's cheaper to learn to brew your own high quality beer. As far as keeping it cold... well we have Puget Sound, 48-50 degrees year round.


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## Redox (Jul 5, 2008)

Hmm, year round chilled water.  Can I bury a PEX loop in there?

Chris


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## RedRanger (Jul 5, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> It's cheaper to learn to brew your own high quality beer. As far as keeping it cold... well we have Puget Sound, 48-50 degrees year round.



Funny you mention the "brew your own"..    Did that about 20 years ago, used to make Coopers Lager, and it cost less than a softdrink.  Problem was--gained 20 pounds in about 8 months.  Sold all the paraphanefila and took about 2 years to lose the weight.  Now I really have to limit my alcohol spending,but no longer have to loosen the belt :cheese:


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## begreen (Jul 6, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> Hmm, year round chilled water.  Can I bury a PEX loop in there?
> 
> Chris



Year round steady temp water. There are some lodges up north on the water that have geothermal heat pumps connected to a tubing mesh in the Sound.


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## Redox (Jul 6, 2008)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Redox said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Steady CHILLED water!  Most chillers for comfort cooling put out 44-45 degree water and return it at 55 degrees.  If only the Cheaspeake were that cool...

Just wondering out loud who regulates those loops on what is probably public property?

Chris


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## fstaples (Jul 9, 2008)

fossil said:
			
		

> I haven't gotten a haircut in almost 9 years.  I rarely bathe.  As soon as I can afford some propane, I'm going to grill both of wife's cats.  And maybe her dog.  Rick



I wonder if they taste like chicken. 

In sub zero temperatures my wife leaves the back door open so the cats can come in and out as they please.

FS


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## myzamboni (Jul 10, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> Funny you should mention that!  There was an article in this morning's paper that said the MARC stations are becoming stressed for parking spaces.  Seems that people ARE looking at alternatives, but I suspect that some of this traffic might be from people that have moved here from DC.
> 
> I understand DC has a very good Metro system and there is a regional system called MARC that connects Baltimore to DC and all the way out to Martinsburg WV.  It also connects to AMTRAK and BWI Airport.  Baltimore's system isn't nearly as widespread as DC's, but it is possible to get on the bus or subway or light rail in your neighborhood and go to New York or Boston (or anywhere) without ever getting in a car.  I've used the Light Rail to go to baseball games at Camden Yards (named after the train station, BTW) and AMTRAK to go to NYC on business.  I know people that do this to see a show on Broadway or go to Times Square on New Years eve.  It's very convenient and anything that keeps cars off of I-95 is a good thing, IMHO.  As well connected as we are, it wouldn't work for me in my line of business.  I run service and never know where I'll be and what I'll need to have with me in the way of tools and equipment.  I'm still trying to figure out how to run service calls on a motorcycle!
> 
> ...



BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit, not the Northern VA woodburner) can't hold DC Metro's jock.  Not as many trains, does not drop you in as many convenient places, and costs more.

Plans for expansion are caught up in political crap and are about 15 years behind schedule.  Even the propose expansion ignores my side of the valley.  We have light-rail by me but it does not go where I need it to.  My only blesssing is I have a 'reverse commute' so I don't sit in bumper-to bumper.


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