# My Brass Flame Wood Stove



## Blazzinghot (May 16, 2021)

A couple of weeks back I purchased a Brass Flame wood stove which was tested in 1986. I purchased the stove for $75.00  I had to rebuild this stove so was able to study it to see how it operated. First, I would like to mention this stove is built like a tank an expression I am borrow from someone on this forum. It has three air intakes. The main two air intakes are controlled by the pull handle on the bottom of the stove. It adjusts air coming in above the glass and the three round air inlets on the back wall of the stove which are curiously placed in the middle rather than on the bottom as you see in the other older stoves. These two adjustments work independent of each other. It is a simple but ingenious way to control air flow. The third air intake is from some small holes on the bottom back side of the stove which go into some two-inch by ¾ tubes up through double steel walls to the secondary burners.
The secondary burners are not like what you see in most stoves today. Instead of having three or four tubes going across the top this stove has the tubes in a square shape welded to the stove walls allowing space for heat reflectors which set on top of the secondary burners which are removable. They were made of ¼ steel plates.
I made a few improvements to this stove. I welded in some angle iron above the secondary burners so I could place bricks as a heat sink instead of the ¼ steel plating. The back wall of the stove was warped and split so I cut it out and replaced it with new steel and added some short pieces of stainless-steel tubing onto the three holes which is the main air intake.
After I was all finished, I was excited to move the stove outside and hook up eight feet of pipe to test it.  The tree stainless steel air intakes acted like torches and were shooting flames toward the glass window. In my first test I found that I could not shut the stove down totally as the secondary air tubes were not enough to keep the fire going so was creating allot of smoke. I had to allow some air flow through the air intake on the back wall. I stove heats up nicely and was smoke free after adjusting the air intakes.
The glass window was burned but with some hard labor and a polishing kit I was able to save the glass and $100.00 for a new window. It still has some small scratches but the window is clear enough to show of the fire. I put in new gaskets and bricks and hope to place this on Facebook Marketplace this week.


----------



## Hoytman (May 16, 2021)

Oh yeah! Job well done. Very nice looking little stove. First time seeing one of those. It appears to be well made with heavy top plate, door frame and heavy hinge pins. Certainly built like a tank...a description I use often as do a few others.  I do question that date if 1986. Sure it’s not 1996?? Just wondering. Not sure when the first tube stove came out, but I do have a stove built in 1998 with them.

After thinking about it I do think there were some tube stoves starting back then, but I can’t be sure without looking. Sure is an interesting stove though. Love the legs on it.


----------



## Blazzinghot (May 16, 2021)

Thanks for your comments. I just added another picture and let you stove guys read it and see if I am reading it correctly. The lady that owned the stove had it setting next a building she was leashing to some guys who were building sheds and one man came over thinking he was going to lift it and found he could not budge it. He said "Oh do you want me to get my forklift?" It may be small but is very well built. I have sent pictures of this stove to a few friends and told them she has nice legs. Ha


----------



## clancey (May 16, 2021)

It's a very pretty stove and glad you have it and fixing it up...The fire looks good in it as well..clancey


----------



## begreen (May 17, 2021)

Nicely done, I love it when new life is breathed into an old soul.  The plate above the secondaries is not a heat sink. It is a baffle designed to divert the wood gases to the front of the stove, thus past the secondary tubes where it is ignited and burned off before reversing back to the flue outlet above the baffle. The bricks can serve the same function as long as there is enough room above them to not restrict the flow to the flue outlet.


----------



## Blazzinghot (May 17, 2021)

Thanks again for the comments. I enjoyed restoring this stove. It is almost like new. Yes, I measured to make sure I had enough air space between the bricks and the top of the stove. I got the idea of using the fire bricks from watching the video on how the Lopi wood stove works  video. What I meant by heat sink is that the brick will hold the heat much better and hotter and help  produce a better secondary burn. The radiant mass hold the heat inside the firebox so it elevates the burn temperature. Now I borrowed all this from the Lopi video. It makes sense to me.


----------



## Hoytman (May 17, 2021)

I figured that’s where you got the idea and good on you as it’s a great design. One of the very things that We liked about Lopi stoves until they changed them all last year. They now use an insulating blanket, which I’m sure works just as well, but just seems cheaper. However, it did allow for some better perks/options for their design. Taller door and glass, easier loading since tubes moved up some, they also hid the air wash.

I actually found a used Liberty to try before dropping a lot of money. If I like it, I may buy a née Endeavor for the N/S-E/W loading. Might even go a unit smaller than that even.

Not sure which stove company had the first tubes, or what year. Some of those early Lopi’s were pushing the envelope by about 84-86 I think. Maybe someone else here has that info.

How big is the firebox in that stove and what are the out measurements?


----------



## begreen (May 17, 2021)

Hoytman said:


> Not sure which stove company had the first tubes, or what year. Some of those early Lopi’s were pushing the envelope by about 84-86 I think. Maybe someone else here has that info.


I think I read that Avalon was the first and this was one of the reasons Travis was interested in the purchase of the company.


----------



## Hoytman (May 17, 2021)

That would explain why I was thinking it was Lopi.  Guess that’s not totally right.


----------



## Blazzinghot (May 17, 2021)

Hoytman, I did get the idea of putting bricks on the top from the video I watched on the Lopi stove. It was very interesting you may have seen it. The have a stove they call a cut a way which show how the stove works. I have also downloaded different diagrams from other ideas on secondary burners which I find interesting. 
I measured the stove just now so we can both know the inside measurements are 16 inches for depth from glass to back brick and 18 inches wide from brick to brick on the sides and 13 inches deep from the inside bottom to the bottom of the top bricks. 
The outside dimensions are about 28 inches tall and 24 inches wide side to side and 20 inches deep.  

After you mentioned that you were not sure about secondary burners being on stoves in 1986. This made me wonder about the history of secondary burners. I tried to do a search on the internet but did not find much information. It would be a great topic to explore but maybe that has already be done on this forum. 

Interesting info on the Avalon. It could be that several stove inventors from different parts of the world started exploring the idea of secondary burners. I must admit I am a stove novice but was surprised to find this  Brass Flame had secondary burners for as old as it was. It was fun taking the lid off and looking under the hood.


----------



## begreen (May 19, 2021)

There were several products exploring secondary combustion prior to 1986. Some were catalytic stoves and others had a form of secondary combustion, some basic and some sophisticated. A simple form was seen in stoves that had an extra air control positioned right at where the flue gases turned around the baffle front. The Jotul F602 and F118 also introduced air at this point to improve secondary combustion.  One of the best-known clean burners was the Kent Tile fire which started selling in the US in 1980 from New Zealand.


			https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/kent-tile-fire


----------



## clancey (May 19, 2021)

Is this a good link to use for "the clean burner" you tried to put on here.. Is it the same wood stove?  clancey





						Kent Wood Heaters
					

Our Kent wood heaters are more efficient than ever and is one of the cleanest burning heaters on the market. With our extensive range of heaters to suit any space, style and budget, you'll find the perfect heater for your home.




					kentwoodheaters.com.au
				




The name of yours was "The Kent tile fire " in the 1980 from New Zealand and is this the same company for the old stove...?


----------



## begreen (May 19, 2021)

Yes, Kent is still in business, but I don't know if they are imported to the US anymore.


----------



## Hoytman (May 19, 2021)

I imagine these qualify, although no air tubes. Lopi does call it secondary air, but I was just wondering which actually had tubes, or air “holes” like the OP’s stove. 

https://www.travisindustries.com/Docs/93508000.pdf      ....1982 model 520 and 380.


----------



## begreen (May 19, 2021)

Yes, I think the early Avalon was the first and with only one tube to start with. Designed by John Desautels, over a weekend of inspiration!





						The short story of a stove genius!
					

I'll probably move this to the wiki history section, but I wanted to tell a short story of long ago!  Back in 1986 I had the pleasure of meeting a true stove genius...maybe one of the very few that ever existed. Sure, there have been lots of stove designers, stove engineers and stove experts -...




					www.hearth.com


----------



## bholler (May 19, 2021)

Cawley lemay was another one that was using secondary combustion very early as well.  They had a cast iron grid at the front of the baffle and introduced fresh air directly into that


----------



## Jan Pijpelink (May 19, 2021)

begreen said:


> Yes, Kent is still in business, but I don't know if they are imported to the US anymore.


Not anymore.


----------



## Hoytman (May 19, 2021)

begreen said:


> Yes, I think the early Avalon was the first and with only one tube to start with. Designed by John Desautels, over a weekend of inspiration!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great read. Thanks for that.

However, if you go back and read that entire article I see a discrepancy. He mention creating a computer program on his Mac to help him design the stove and by that time the article says it was the late 80’s, so something doesn’t jive. Not trying to be argumentative, just something I noticed. Read it again for yourself. Late 80’s can’t coincide with early 80’s.

Maybe someone got crossed up telling the story.

Still an interesting read.


----------



## Hoytman (May 19, 2021)

Those Lemays were well built. Would like to see one in person.


----------



## bholler (May 19, 2021)

Hoytman said:


> Those Lemays were well built. Would like to see one in person.


They have the deepest relief casting I have seen on any stove.  And more detail than anything else at the time.


----------



## begreen (May 19, 2021)

Hoytman said:


> Great read. Thanks for that.
> 
> However, if you go back and read that entire article I see a discrepancy. He mention creating a computer program on his Mac to help him design the stove and by that time the article says it was the late 80’s, so something doesn’t jive. Not trying to be argumentative, just something I noticed. Read it again for yourself. Late 80’s can’t coincide with early 80’s.
> 
> ...


The Mac 128k came out in Jan. 1984.


----------



## Hoytman (May 19, 2021)

begreen said:


> The Mac 128k came out in Jan. 1984.


Fully aware of that because it was not before my time.  Commodore 64 came out in 1982 and I also remember that.

“He developed a program on his computer (a mac, in this case) which simulated all the variables of combustion. This may seem like nothing special to those who work with such systems today, but this was the late 1980's and computing power was nowhere near what it is today.”

Late 80’s is 87-89, not 84.  So a tube stove, couldn’t have been in 80 or 84...that is as written by the quote above. Speaking about the link to the article.

Not trying to doubt what you told me, so please don’t take offense to that. No doubt you showed me the Avalon and when it was made. Perhaps the person telling the story didn’t get it quite right. Not a big deal either way. Just something I noticed that didn’t jive with what you had told me. I didn’t doubt you, still don’t, but I question that particular posting, that’s all.

Anyway, moving forward...


----------



## begreen (May 20, 2021)

@webbie founded Hearth.com. It's possible he made an error in the recounting.


----------



## Blazzinghot (May 20, 2021)

begreen said:


> There were several products exploring secondary combustion prior to 1986. Some were catalytic stoves and others had a form of secondary combustion, some basic and some sophisticated. A simple form was seen in stoves that had an extra air control positioned right at where the flue gases turned around the baffle front. The Jotul F602 and F118 also introduced air at this point to improve secondary combustion.  One of the best-known clean burners was the Kent Tile fire which started selling in the US in 1980 from New Zealand.
> 
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/kent-tile-fire



The


----------



## Blazzinghot (May 20, 2021)

It seems as if this thread has gone to the history of what stoves had secondary burn systems.  I looked the pictures on the  internet  of some of the stoves mentioned. Sometimes you can download the manual and see how they are designed.  I saw the diagram for the Jotul F602  and it has changed allot from the earlier models. I just found a picture of the basics on how the Kent Tile Fire works with explanation .  https://pasurvivalprods.tripod.com/kent.html  I like to see how others come up with their ideas and what they did to make the stove more efficient.  

Today I sold the Brass Flame to a man you has a 1100 sq. ft. home.   I had to explain to him how a secondary burn works so that he could get the most  out of his new wood stove. I have to be honest  and tell you about  6 years ago when I purchased this home it had a brand new Napoleon wood stove.  I just could not get the house warm with it.  Our home is 1300 sq. ft.  The reason I did not get my home warm was because I did not know how to use it.  I really did not learn about secondary burn until I posted my first stove on this forum. To bad  I sold the Napoleon stove.


----------



## Blazzinghot (Jul 22, 2021)

Since this discussion included some of the stoves that first developed secondary burners  I would like to share what I found this morning when looking at a used Osburn stove online.  I try to do as much research as possible before I purchase a stove. I found the Osburn site http://www.osburn-australia.com/en/about/history   Here is part of their history.  

"Mr. Mills became sole owner of the company in 1985. In its early days, the company produced only wood stoves, and in 1980 it became the first-ever North American manufacturer to make a wood stove in compliance with Oregon State's strict air emission standards."  

They must have had some type of secondary burn system but 1980  There stoves today are on the pricy side but they look well built.


----------



## begreen (Jul 22, 2021)

Not sure. I think Craig posted many years ago that the Avalon was the first stove that was a secondary tube burner, but there were other clean(er) burners in the early '80s.


----------



## Blazzinghot (Jul 22, 2021)

It seems you mentioned this before It may very well be that Craig is correct but though we could toss this history into the mix.  Now I am somewhat interested in how the older Avalon's and Osburn stoves were made.


----------



## stoveliker (Jul 22, 2021)

Regarding secondary burners, I have seen in my DutchWest FA264CCL, which had controlled secondary air on the top left side feeding tubes ending (and thus providing pre-heated air) under the cylindrical combustor in the top middle of the stove, that if one plays well with the primary air (in the door on the left, over fire) (and of course keep the air in the ash door closed as it's for coal burning), that one can have secondary flames coming out of these tube as well. Get it hot, decrease primary air, and do not increase secondary too much, and it works.

And my stove was "tested" according to the label in '83.

While the air may have been meant to supply oxygen to the combustor (a thing I believe most stoves now don't do anymore b/c primary burning leaves sufficient O2 for the combustor), in the right mode one could get secondaries there.

I played with it, but refrained from running that way for long as I was afraid that the (ceramic) combustor would be damaged from having flames too close or touching it. I always thought I could use this as a relatively clean back-up mode if my combustor failed before I had another one...


----------



## begreen (Jul 22, 2021)

Blazzinghot said:


> It seems you mentioned this before It may very well be that Craig is correct but though we could toss this history into the mix.  Now I am somewhat interested in how the older Avalon's and Osburn stoves were made.


I think the first Avalon had a single secondary tube, but don't hold me to it.


----------



## Blazzinghot (Jul 22, 2021)

stoveliker, I was not familiar with the   DutchWest FA264CCL so just watched a couple of videos on it. The one shown in the video was a 1985 model. Very nice looking stove and I like the idea of feeding the wood from the side. I am sure they have improved them since the 1980's.  The one Blaze King I rebuilt  some time back has secondary air under the combuster.  It sounds like your are still using the DutchWest or have you upgraded? 

begreen, Very hard to find a history on the Avalon stoves could not even find an older manual as they sometimes have a diagram of how the stove works. I guess we might not ever no how some of these older stoves were made.


----------



## stoveliker (Jul 22, 2021)

I upgraded to a (modern) Blaze King Chinook 30.2. A very nice experience in burn time (on my first try of a long burn, I got 24-is hours. Of course it was between 30-35 outside, but even in dead winter (but on Long Island, not Idaho...), I still get 12 hr burns easily. In fact, 14 hr was more common, which was a nuisance because one has to push it keep a decent refill schedule.

Chimney was utterly clean (non-insulated, double wall in masonry outside), only some dry crud at the bottom elbow - which was singe wall).


----------



## Blazzinghot (Jul 22, 2021)

Thanks for you reply and info on your new Blaze King Chinook that is a very nice looking stove.  With a 12  to 14 hour burn time you will sleep well at night. Having a clean chimney is always nice.   Those days of getting up a couple of times to stoke the fire are long gone for most. I just got a very nice  used Country Striker for my shop and fixed it up and am getting excited about putting a fire in it this fall.


----------



## Hoytman (Jul 22, 2021)

I guess other than the Avalon/Lopi we are still searching for which stove company/model had the first tubes in it. Good thread!

Let’s not forget about the wood stoves that had secondary air without tubes. We know  Avalon/Lopi had this feature and likely others did as well. None come to mind at the moment because I wasn’t really dwelling on the subject when I got an alert on this thread.

For the sake of other newbies reading this thread into the future who may be interested in the history of stove design, especially as it pertains to secondary air function and where it came from.

Stove designers were well aware of secondary air function 100 years plus prior to modern wood box stoves and incorporated it into many of the much older stove designs of the 1800’s to early 1900’s.  More research in this can yield some interesting reading. Those guys were smart designers. It is highly likely more modern stove designers built upon this prior knowledge.

For the sake of this discussion though, I believe it was me who asked earlier in the thread (now some time ago) which stove company had the first secondary air “tube(s)”.

So far, we’ve come up with Avalon as maybe the first with a single secondary air tube. Lopi is real close in there as well...and as Begreen has mentioned likely came from Lopi acquiring Avalon. Perhaps there are/were others. I’ll have to look into the Dutchwest. I’m not familiar with that one.


----------



## begreen (Jul 22, 2021)

The early Federal and Kent stoves had secondary combustion systems. Worth looking at their histories.


----------



## stoveliker (Jul 22, 2021)

To be clear, the "federal" and the "Dutchwest" are (at least for the iteration I had) the same : it was the DutchWest Federal Airtight (FA) [264ccl].


----------



## Blazzinghot (Jul 23, 2021)

Here is a good place to get started on Kent wood stoves.  https://www.kent.co.nz/history


----------



## Hoytman (Jul 23, 2021)

How mainstream were these in the U.S.? Anyone have any idea. I’ve never heard of them. During that time frame in my local, Buck was the hands down most popular stove.


----------



## bholler (Jul 23, 2021)

Hoytman said:


> How mainstream were these in the U.S.? Anyone have any idea. I’ve never heard of them. During that time frame in my local, Buck was the hands down most popular stove.


We still see a fair number of Kent's.  I would say Alaska's and fishers were probably the most popular here.  Some bucks but not nearly as common as many others.


----------



## BKVP (Jul 23, 2021)

Our 1001 had 4 secondary air tubes (mentioned earlier) and a combustor.  (First hybrid) The design drew air from the room and placed it below the combustor, contributing to thermal shock.  70 degree room air was not a great design.  Air needs to be heated prior to introducing it to the fire when a combustor is also used.  That was 1983.


----------



## Cgomes (Sep 3, 2021)

Hello. We just purchased a cabin in the woods with a brass flame wood stove. Having a hard time finding instructions on how to work this thing as we are used to one with electrical blower. I see you did a nice refinishing job and are knowledgeable about how to get it going. Could you share that...would trally appreciate it...here is a pic of ours before and after my polishing attempts...not bad i think


----------



## fbelec (Sep 4, 2021)

if i am getting this right i have a h2 made in 1986 that had a secondary air and tube. and if you are going to talk non tube my defiant from 1978 has a heated air secondary chamber to the right of the main fire box. i was not aware that they made secondarys back in the late 1800's. does anybody know of a brand i can look up to read?


----------



## Hoytman (Sep 4, 2021)

Just google antique cylinder stoves, of which there are many to study. Many of them had secondary air intakes that were adjustable, some were stationary. Some had secondary gas rings that ignited volatile gases just above the fire pot.


----------



## begreen (Sep 4, 2021)

Cgomes said:


> Hello. We just purchased a cabin in the woods with a brass flame wood stove. Having a hard time finding instructions on how to work this thing as we are used to one with electrical blower. I see you did a nice refinishing job and are knowledgeable about how to get it going. Could you share that...would trally appreciate it...here is a pic of ours before and after my polishing attempts...not bad i think
> 
> View attachment 281605


Looks almost new. Is there a UL label on the back that provides the model and clearances? It looks quite close to the rear wall.


----------



## Blazzinghot (Sep 4, 2021)

Hi Cgomes, I was surprised to see another BrassFlame wood stove. I am not sure what your stove looked like from the start but it polished up nice and looks super. Like the flooring in your cabin.

Here is what I remember about how this stove works. First, the secondary air are those small holes around the top inside the stove have no adjustment. There is a small square opening on the back of the stove that lets in are for this purpose. The long rod that pulls out in the front adjusts the primary air for both the holes on the middle back wall of the stove and for air wash system above the window.

Here is the tricky part which I will try to explain the best I can. When you first light up your kindling have that middle bar pulled all the way out towards you as this opens up all the air intakes. Then keep the door slightly cracked open and add more wood to get the stove nice and hot you want to get good draft going. Then add firewood as needed and close the door.

Then as the stove gets a good bed coals (get the stove to about 350) start slowly pushing in this rod. It will start turning down the amount of air coming in from the back of the stove first. This will not affect the air coming in over the window on  the stove yet. As you keep pushing in the rod it will turn off the air coming in from the back of the stove completely. Then you can keep pushing in the rod and it will catch the second plate that will start turning off the air coming in over the window.

That rod on the front of the stove is long for a reason because it adjusts two air controls. The second air control for the window does not move until a small washer on the rod hits it and then starts to slide it shut.

My suggestion would be never to close the air over the door so you will never push that rod in all the way. Once you understand the principles you can play with the two air controls. If you turn down the air over the widow, I am not sure you will keep the fire hot enough to keep the secondary burners working.


----------



## frassblame (Nov 21, 2022)

Blazzinghot said:


> Hi Cgomes, I was surprised to see another BrassFlame wood stove. I am not sure what your stove looked like from the start but it polished up nice and looks super. Like the flooring in your cabin.
> 
> Here is what I remember about how this stove works. First, the secondary air are those small holes around the top inside the stove have no adjustment. There is a small square opening on the back of the stove that lets in are for this purpose. The long rod that pulls out in the front adjusts the primary air for both the holes on the middle back wall of the stove and for air wash system above the window.
> 
> ...


Hi there, I also have a brass flame model in my house that was built in the 60s, and my reburner bar looks exactly like yours did! Rusted out with a gaping hole in the middle, and the metal baffle plates are warped as well.

How did you go about fixing the welded reburners and replacing the baffle plates?
Did you add any insulation baffle blankets?

I was also wondering if you were able to find a manual online.


----------



## Blazzinghot (Nov 22, 2022)

Hi, welcome to the forum. I keep a file in my pictures on my computer called Wood Stoves so  had to go back and refresh my memory. When that front burn tube goes out there is no easy way to repair it except by cutting off the top of the stove and replacing it as  you could see from the picture.  Here is what I did to the second Brass Flame stove I fixed up in the picture called New Burn Tubes. I installed stainless steel burn tubes.   I just checked my wood stove  manual folder and did not see one for the Brass flame. If I remember correctly it was hard to find much info on this model of stove on the internet.  

Don't remember much what I did with the top metal plate above the secondary burner but I usually use 1/4 metal and yes it will always help to put a ceramic blanket on top. I don't think I did on the stoves I worked on as I am still  a work in progress myself.  But it would be a good idea to put in a ceramic blanket to help the secondary air heat up faster and hotter. 

Oh, I also had a third Brass Flame and not sure I shared it on this forum. It came complete with front Brass legs and blower and was in good condition. Just needed allot of cleaning and some paint. The fire was done in my photo program because it was to sunny outside to get a good picture. But it did produce a very nice fire.  And yes when I advertised the stove I told them the fire was fake, ha.


----------



## Blazzinghot (Nov 22, 2022)

I just was reading through this topic again and remembered that I put bricks on top of the secondary burner on the Brass Flame mentioned here.


----------

