# Cold family room with high ceilings



## hartkem (Jan 1, 2015)

I'm on my third season heating with my Eko 40. It heats the house well with 12 hours between firings on my 3500 sq house with lots of windows.  Since the installation I have been upgrading the insulation where possible to increase comfort and time between firings. The house was built in 2002 and was built a little sloppy with air leaks and design flaws. At this point I have done everything I can without major demo and the house is mostly comfortable. All air sealing and insulation is done where accessible. Unfortunately, the most uncomfortable room is the living room where we spend all our time. This room is 18x25 with 18 FT cathedral ceiling and is also open to the upstairs since this is a 1.5 story house. The north wall is full of 8' tall windows wall to wall. This room always feels cool compared to the other rooms in the house. There is a wall between the family room and the kitchen. The kitchen has a 9' ceiling and is probably the warmest room as my 500 gallon storage tank is in a utility room below the kitchen. The tank is insulated but the standby loss is enough to warm up the basement utility room which also warms the kitchen above. The thermostat is in the dining room which is open to the living room and is also cool though not quite as bad as the living room. We keep the thermostat at 72 degrees.  The house has forced air and I have a WAHX in the plenum for the wood heat. The ceiling below the living room is drywalled but the joists are open to the utility room where my tank is. Any clever ideas to improve the comfort of this room?


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## Floydian (Jan 1, 2015)

Hi hartkem.

 Increasing your mean radiant temp in the big room will make a pretty big difference in your comfort level. Panel radiators or good old cast Iron rads will do the job nicely. Plus you can size them to use lower temps to take more advantage of your storage than the WAHX can. 


Good luck,

Noah


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## mustash29 (Jan 1, 2015)

I have a similar issue.  I feel your pain, it sucks, LOL.

My place is a tri-level.  The living room has a 12' ceiling, a 30 x 60 north wall window and 8 feet x 60" east window with a 4' circle top.  The living room is open to the foyer and upper floor / hallway entrance.  The kitchen and dining room are up there too, but sort of separated by walls & open archways.

The baseboard heat was set up in a loop.  It hits 2 registers in the kitchen, then one in the dining room, then finishes off in the living room before returning to the boiler.  The design seems good for natural circulation, but the cold room is the one with the coolest water hitting it.

The LR ceiling fan is a Hunter 52" on a 4' down rod.  Running it on low blowing down evens things out somewhat.  But things like doing a lot of cooking or baking will heat up the kitchen & dining & satisify the T-stat up there, then the LR starts feeling cool.


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## jebatty (Jan 1, 2015)

I really like the appearance of many homes with cathedral ceilings and lots of windows. My wife and I even talked about raising the roof on our single story with basement home to add a cathedral ceiling to the living room that looks out to a lake, but nixed that primarily due to the cost but also we were concerned about heating in the cold winters and cooling in summer for reasons which you identify. So, what do you do now?

My vote would be for panel radiators for the cathedral ceiling living room. Panels They come in many designs, shapes and dimensions. I first saw those in the early 1980's when we visited my cousin in Germany and saw their new row house. We wondered where their heat came from, and then saw the panels cleverly and artistically blended into the wall coverings and open spaces. Low temp radiant to warm the bodies and not the huge air space in the ceiling is the way to go.


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## pbvermont (Jan 1, 2015)

Air currents (set-up by convection) moving past your skin makes you cold.  There are big convection currents in a big, tall room with lots of window area.  Heat doesn't rise--hot AIR rises, up to your high ceiling.  Use your available hot water to create true RADIANT heat, that warms objects and people "down below."  Do this with panel radiators largely plumbed with pex tubing.  The more radiators, the better to allow lower temp. water to be  most effective.  Baseboard heating, though using hot water, is largely convective, and needs really high-temp water.  Don't use it.  Panel radiators are your best bet.


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## hartkem (Jan 1, 2015)

Panel rads do sound like a good option and I could probably find a way to snake some pex down a floor joist to the far wall to install a radiator which is really the only open wall to do so. How would I integrate it into my existing system? Use the return water from the WAHX? I do have extra taps on the storage tank but I would then need a separate thermostat and another a419 controller to interupt the call for heat when the water is to cold.


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## Fred61 (Jan 1, 2015)

Unfortunately "radiant" comes in more than one flavor. Windows are the worst. They possess everything bad when it comes to staying comfortable. First, as I mentioned, they radiate cold just as radiators radiate heat causing your body to feel cold even if the room is at a customary comfortable temperature. I had a similar room at my old place and had movable insulation (Window Quilt) installed. Had a favorite recliner within 7 feet of the glass and stubbornly refused to close the insulation 'till darkness because I enjoyed the view. I would sit there and become colder and colder until I rolled down the insulated panel. When I did it was like the room gained 5 degrees in a fraction of a second.

Their second flaw it conduction. Pretty lousy R value. You know what I 'm talking about here

Third. They make a terrific convector. The cold surface is continually being wiped by the downdraft spilling cold "wind" off the window sill and across the floor past your feet. If you covered most of your big window leaving an opening on top and on the bottom, you could possibly get enough cold air spilling from the bottom to spin a pinwheel.


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## arbutus (Jan 1, 2015)

pbvermont said:


> Air currents (set-up by convection) moving past your skin makes you cold.  There are big convection currents in a big, tall room with lots of window area.  Heat doesn't rise--hot AIR rises, up to your high ceiling.  Use your available hot water to create true RADIANT heat, that warms objects and people "down below."  Do this with panel radiators largely plumbed with pex tubing.  The more radiators, the better to allow lower temp. water to be  most effective.  Baseboard heating, though using hot water, is largely convective, and needs really high-temp water.  Don't use it.  Panel radiators are your best bet.


 Unless you can retrofit underfloor radiant ...


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## hartkem (Jan 1, 2015)

arbutus said:


> Unless you can retrofit underfloor radiant ...


I would love to heat the floors but can't get myself to tear out perfectly good drywall to do so.


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## arbutus (Jan 1, 2015)

hartkem said:


> ...
> . The ceiling below the living room is drywalled but the joists are open to the utility room where my tank is. ...



Do you mean studs are open to the utility room or the joist cavitiy ends just open there?  If the studs are open you could look into a radiant wall, but it sounds like panel radiators would be a good bet.  Minor drywall removal and patching required where you penetrate the floor of the living room.


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## hartkem (Jan 1, 2015)

arbutus said:


> Do you mean studs are open to the utility room or the joist cavitiy ends just open there?  If the studs are open you could look into a radiant wall, but it sounds like panel radiators would be a good bet.  Minor drywall removal and patching required where you penetrate the floor of the living room.


Only the joist cavity ends are open. I would probably open the floor from above by cutting out some subfloor since the drywalled ceiling below is textured and looks like crap when patched. Biggest problem with the panel radiator is my couch sits right in front of the only good place to locate the radiator.


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## jebatty (Jan 1, 2015)

I doubt one radiator would give you the warmth you are looking for.


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## arbutus (Jan 1, 2015)

What is in front of the windows and how far off the floor do they start?  I put panel radiators in front of the windows in our bedrooms.  Can you put one below each window?


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 1, 2015)

What about something like "trench heating"

http://www.hurlconheating.com.au/si...size-image/low profile trench web600x6001.jpg


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 1, 2015)

heatingcostssuck said:


> What about something like "trench heating"
> 
> http://www.hurlconheating.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/fullsize-image/low profile trench web600x6001.jpg




You should really do an accurate heat load calc for that room, that is the only way to know what it will take to get you comfortable.  The heat should be under those windows if possible to offset that cold conduction current at the glass.

I doubt 450 square feet of radiant floor could cover a load with that much glass, the numbers will tell. 

High ceiling, glass rooms usually require supplemental heat when designing radiant floors.

A heater with a small fan would help "blanket" those windows with warmth.  Jaga makes some nice low temp rads with variable speed blowers.  you'll get a lot more output from any convector heater if you can move some air across the fins.


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## Fred61 (Jan 2, 2015)

I was involved in a situation like this a few years ago on a house built slopeside at Okemo ski resort. The house had radiant floor but in this case the heat did not reach high enough to keep a mezzanine that accessed upper bedrooms comfortable. What they did in order to get the heat higher in the room was to install kick space heaters in the bottom of wood boxes that were on each side of the stone fireplace.

On the installation of under floor radiant: I personally would not let a textured ceiling below deter me from installing radiant. Drywall is so easy to replace that tearing out the whole ceiling is a small price to pay for comfort. Besides textured ceiling is so 70s compared to today's smooth look. I have replaced or skim coated countless ceilings in homes without any disruption of their living condition. I know many homeowners and contractors panic if sheetrock needs to be torn out but it's really easy to repair.


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## hartkem (Jan 2, 2015)

Thanks guys for all your suggestions. Today its 32 outside and the rooms is comfortable. It's mainly when it gets below 20 that the rooms starts to feel noticeably colder. I'm leaning toward removing all drywall for basement ceiling and installing radiant on the entire ceiling so the whole first floor is heated. This would also solve our cold master bathroom tile floor. This project is definitely in the future but I wasn't sure what to do.  Below is a picture. Windows start at the floor


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## hartkem (Jan 2, 2015)

This is how the room opens up to a cat walk between the two bedrooms and bathroom upstairs.


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## Fred61 (Jan 2, 2015)

Beautiful space. IMO you are making he right decision. I would go heavy on the underfloor pex below the windows to slow or reverse the convective flow. Is the temperature adequate at the mezzanine/ "cat walk" level?


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## Deering (Jan 2, 2015)

Doing underfloor radiant heat will be a big, messy project, and not inexpensive.  Your carpet will also work against the under-floor.  I'd lean towards panels if you can get a PEX line into the area.  Your pics didn't clearly show it, but it looks like there's space beneath those windows to install long, narrow panels.  Maybe one to the right of the hearth as well, so you get direct radiant heat.  

Not sure what your return temps are, but the advantage with panels is that they can be effective at fairly low temps, though you may need to install more of them, or larger ones.  Make sure your boiler is protected from return temps that are too low, typically 130 or 140, depending on the manufacturer.

As far as the bathroom, that might be worth doing radiant under the floors. I have some electric radiant under tiles, which might be an easier install, and relatively low energy cost for a small space.


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## Fred61 (Jan 2, 2015)

Panel rads won't go where you need them and will interfere where there's space for them. That room is too nice to be hobbled by panel rads. Use the maximum number of transfer plates.


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 2, 2015)

Are propane/gas inserts for that fireplace off the table? 
Gas throws a wicked amount of heat off.


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## hartkem (Jan 2, 2015)

The fireplace is propane but we don't use it because I don't want to use propane  due to cost. There isn't any space below the windows. The only place for a long panel rad would be behind the couch and I could get some pex to that area. I'll have to weigh both options
The catwalk area stays about 68 degrees. Bedrooms upstairs get cool with no heat. There is a small forced air system for upstairs only that we use in summer for a/c. Currently heating one bedroom with small electric radiator which works well as it doesn't take much heat.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 2, 2015)

I highly doubt that radiant floor, alone, would ever heat that room at design or below temperatures.  Three things working against you.  The glass end, carpet and pad, and also the heat flux which is the room square footage minus any furnishings that go down to the floor and block the radiant emitters.  I wonder if you have even 100 square feet of un-encumbered floor surface to turn into a radiant surface?


If you could get a trench style with some fans in them that would supplement the radiant.

Still, a room load calc will tell all.


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## Former Farmer (Jan 2, 2015)

hartkem said:


> The fireplace is propane but we don't use it because I don't want to use propane due to cost.



What about taking out the propane fireplace and putting in a wood or pellet insert?  That is what I did and was one of the best things that I could have done.  Wife likes to stand in front of it to warm up when she gets home.


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## Floydian (Jan 2, 2015)

As Bob has mentioned, the load calc needs to happen to make the most informed decision.

That said, this is looking like a good option:



Former Farmer said:


> What about taking out the propane fireplace and putting in a wood or pellet insert? That is what I did and was one of the best things that I could have done. Wife likes to stand in front of it to warm up when she gets home.



Kind of a shame since you have the gasser+storage but your radiant options are looking really limited and a nicely sized pellet insert will definitely deliver the comfort you're looking for and it should end up costing less than a quality under floor retrofit and and not too much more than a large panel radiator with all plumbing, controls etc. that might not take a big enough bite out of your LR heat load.

Noah


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 2, 2015)

Just throwing another option out there, trying to fit within your layout, would be to ditch the stand which the television is on.
Custom build yourself a platform that has some sort of "in-wall" radiant heat in there and then put the TV on top of that.

You wouldn't lose floor space, you could put a larger unit in there and I'm sure you could find something attractive.


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## Pologuy9906 (Jan 3, 2015)

I have the same problem. My room is very similar but slightly bigger.I used the slant fin heat loss calc app. It says 14,000 btu @180. Seriously thinking about changing to panel rads as well. I'm currently researching what's the best bang for my buck. I have 36 feet of standard baseboard fins. I was thinking about adding foot for foot. Seems like overkill though. That would make it 32,700 btus.


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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2015)

Agree 100% with Hot Rod. There is no way you'll ever get the floor to heat that space for exactly the reasons he gave.

Adding some auxiliary heat capacity of some kind is the viable option.


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## Pologuy9906 (Jan 3, 2015)

http://www.hydronicalternatives.com/Products/Radiators.aspx

This is the company I'm looking at. I love the trench look to go with the rads. So they're called trench heaters?


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## hartkem (Jan 3, 2015)

Maybe I could get creative and remove the doors from this cabinet and recess some radiators into it? Just back far enough to keep the fronts flush with the cabinet. Maybe line the recess with metal to help reflect the heat out. It would be easy to get pex into it and I was thinking of maybe routing my return water from my WAHX through the radiator before return back to storage. It would of course cycling the radiator on and off. The door opening is 43"x 28". I know I still need to do a heat loss call.


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## Pologuy9906 (Jan 3, 2015)

The trench style appears to give the flexibility of extra btus. I have 900 gallons of storage. I want to squeeze every usable btu out of the unit and into my home as possible.

Trying to find the specs on the trench designs. I hope there are more manufacturers.


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 3, 2015)

I don't think there's anything you can't do when it comes to being creative with vertical spaces that have a fair amount of depth.

Heck, I look at those rectangles on your hearth's front and think kick space heater.

Did you look at the trench design, flush with your floor in front of the doors + windows?
The problem with trench I guess is, dirt falls down... it's going to collect *somewhere*.

Then again, I'm a newb with Hydronics


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## hartkem (Jan 3, 2015)

heatingcostssuck said:


> I don't think there's anything you can't do when it comes to being creative with vertical spaces that have a fair amount of depth.
> 
> Heck, I look at those rectangles on your hearth's front and think kick space heater.
> 
> ...


I did look at the trench style. My forced air ducts are below the windows and I don't think I want the trench in front of my doors. I also can't get pex to that area without removing drwall. I did some research on a panel rad that would fit in the cabinet with the lower doors removed. I could fit a panel in there that puts out 8000 btu at 180 degree water. I probably would not see that high of water temp and being recessed back in the cabinet I would probably be lucky to get 5000 out of it. Not sure how much difference that would make in the comfort of the room. The panel would face my couch so the radient heat would probably feel nice.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 3, 2015)

hartkem said:


> I did look at the trench style. My forced air ducts are below the windows and I don't think I want the trench in front of my doors. I also can't get pex to that area without removing drwall. I did some research on a panel rad that would fit in the cabinet with the lower doors removed. I could fit a panel in there that puts out 8000 btu at 180 degree water. I probably would not see that high of water temp and being recessed back in the cabinet I would probably be lucky to get 5000 out of it. Not sure how much difference that would make in the comfort of the room. The panel would face my couch so the radient heat would probably feel nice.




The output for most panel rads includes some convection.  You'll need a way for cool air to enter the bottom and the warmed air out the top.

Check into kickspace heaters, very easy to install and with a small blower they will kick out a lot more than a panel rad.  Here is the output sheet.

Most kickspace heaters have optional wall cabinets of floor mount boxes.

I've had good luck with this brand.

https://www.emersonswan.com/ckfinder/userfiles/files/pop6.pdf


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## hartkem (Jan 3, 2015)

Bob Rohr said:


> The output for most panel rads includes some convection.  You'll need a way for cool air to enter the bottom and the warmed air out the top.
> 
> Check into kickspace heaters, very easy to install and with a small blower they will kick out a lot more than a panel rad.  Here is the output sheet.
> 
> ...



Looked into the kicks pace heaters and I could fit two of them in my fireplace hearth like someone previously mentioned.  I would like to plumb them into my return water from my WAHX. I'm using a taco 008 pump with 1 inch copper to my WAHX so I should have plenty of pump to hook them in a series/ parallel arrangement. This would lower my return water temp which I'm told is a good thing.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 3, 2015)

hartkem said:


> View attachment 149377
> 
> 
> Looked into the kicks pace heaters and I could fit two of them in my fireplace hearth like someone previously mentioned.  I would like to plumb them into my return water from my WAHX. I'm using a taco 008 pump with 1 inch copper to my WAHX so I should have plenty of pump to hook them in a series/ parallel arrangement. This would lower my return water temp which I'm told is a good thing.
> ...




You will need to pipe them with a bypass, as they generally have 1/2 copper in them.  Or treat them as a separate zone that could run without the WAHX.

If you have access from below you can install them through the opening you cut.  I've used the 1/2 rubber Onix from Watts Radiant to give you a flexible connection to install or remove.  There used to be a kit available to provide all the pieces, check with Emerson Swan as they are the reps for Smith and Watts Radiant and actually designed the quick install, rubber hose kit, years ago.

Also once installed they need to have the coil cleaned from time to time, as they inhale all sorts of stuff on the floor.  Especially if you have pets   The flexible connectors allow you to pull them out enough to vacuum the fins.

Another tip, they come with a thermal snap switch to turn the fan on once the HX tube gets hot.  There are optional lower temperature versions if you are supplying it with temperature below 180F.  I replaced the factory switch with an adjustable version so you could dial it in to the "sweet spot" of your systems fluid temperature.

Here is a Myson brand I used as a portable heater, note the clip on snap temperature switch lying on top.


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## heaterman (Jan 3, 2015)

I see register openings........
Do you heat with forced air?

We solved one guys problem area by installing a couple small hot water coils in the 6" heat runs going to that particular room.
We got a ordered a couple small 8"x8" coils and made adapters to go from the 6" round to the "boxes" we put the hot water coils in.
The air temp coming from all the other registers in the system was about 110* but the two runs with the coils were over 140*. Worked pretty slick and solved his problem.


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 4, 2015)

http://www.mysoncomfort.com/Content/Media/PDF/WhispaIII Kickspace Manual.pdf

Page 8 gives an example of what Myson Whispa 3 models would give you at what settings.  You don't mention what temperature you think the water
would run at.

Disclaimer:  I don't endorse any vendor/model, or even am qualified to be typing any suggestions.  I'm learning via research, so I am, most probably, wrong.


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## Pologuy9906 (Jan 4, 2015)

Tanks get up to 160ish. Only lit 3-4 times so far.


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## hartkem (Jan 4, 2015)

Well I am happy to report that I made some progress today. I was able to successfully add a forced air register in the room. I cut the bottom of the cabinet out to investigate and then drilled a hole through the subfloor to see where it came out in the basement. To my surprise it was very close to an open spot on the main truck line. I got up a ladder to check out the main duct and found a sheet metal patch on the top that was foil taped. Removing the patch revealed a hole that was a perfect fit for a 6" take off. I cut a whole in the subfloor for the register boot and it matched up perfectly to the take off.  Sealed everything up with foil tape and built a box in the toe kick area from rigid foam to direct the air out the front of the toe kick of the cabinet. The pictures below will help explain what I was able to do.


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## hartkem (Jan 4, 2015)

I don't expect this to completely solve the problem but it can't hurt. The foil tape that was holding the patch down was partially pulled loose so I was losing heat there. A decent flow of air is coming out the new duct since it is so close to the furnace and I don't notice much drop in flow from the other ducts on that branch.  The other ducts feed much warmer areas of the house anyway so hopefully this will help balance things out. Cost less than 15 bucks too!!


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## Fred61 (Jan 4, 2015)

Anything will help. All you need to do is bring the room temperature up above normal comfort temperature to counter the conductive and convective effect of the glass on the body. Are we looking at two or at three outside walls in that room?


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## hartkem (Jan 4, 2015)

Fred61 said:


> Anything will help. All you need to do is bring the room temperature up above normal comfort temperature to counter the conductive and convective effect of the glass on the body. Are we looking at two or at three outside walls in that room?


The north wall is and the east and west walls are only half exposed to the outside. I am surprised at the amount of heat coming out of the six inch duct. So far so good. I'm currently comparing the cold room to the kitchen with a thermometer to see the temp difference. Cold room usually was about 68 when the kitchen was 70.  I just finished everything and will report back with results.


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## heatingcostssuck (Jan 6, 2015)

hartkem said:


> The north wall is and the east and west walls are only half exposed to the outside. I am surprised at the amount of heat coming out of the six inch duct. So far so good. I'm currently comparing the cold room to the kitchen with a thermometer to see the temp difference. Cold room usually was about 68 when the kitchen was 70.  I just finished everything and will report back with results.



How's it going?


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## ihookem (Jan 6, 2015)

I stapled up 2 1/2" pex lines per joist  in the basement , insulated it with fiberglass r13. My family rm is the most comfortable room I ever sat in. Even people that come over say it is a comfortable house and seems really relaxing. Feet are always toasty warm. I can even feel the heat up to my ankles sometimes. I fall asleep right on the floor on the coldest days .  Ya just have to tear out the drywall in the basement. Easy for me to say though,, I do drywall. You can put up accustical ceilings. There are tons of really cool looking 2x2 tiles these days. Not that I care, but I wouldn't want  my family rm cold at all. Also, you will notice you will be more comfortable at a lower room temp than when using forced air.  I have half the house on staple radiant. Even at -14 yesterday morning and -6 today the family rm and kitchen was fairly comfortable where there was radiant. No air flow feel. I still have not used my furnace to subsidise my radiant, even though the boiler is  hooked to my NG furnace , even at -14. Also, If I lay on the floor and cover up with a blanket , it gets totally toasty under the blanket. Tell the wife that and you will be tearing out drywalll  Snicker.


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## hartkem (Jan 6, 2015)

heatingcostssuck said:


> How's it going?



Well it's been several days since I added the duct. The duct is really putting out the heat but the room is only a little more comfortable. Essentially all I did was even out the temp more. Before the kitchen was say 72 and the living room would be 69 or 70. Now both rooms are 70. Basically took some heat from the warmer rooms and redirected to cooler room. Now don't get me wrong this is good thing but it still could feel warmer. It does make sense though if you think about the location of the thermostat. It is located in the dining room which has no separation from the living room. By adding the additional duct to the living room the t-stat just reaches set point a little sooner preventing the other rooms in the house from being heated above set point. I do think everything is balanced better now and I guess the solution is to just turn up the t-stat which I haven't done.  Part of the problem is the kitchen floor is much warmer than the living room floor. The kitchen floor is above the utility room where my thermal storage is which stays toasty. Walking on the cooler living room floor from the warm floor is a constant reminder.  I Looked at the drywall in the basement today and the thought of removing it makes me cringe. Lots of square footage and bulkheads make it seem overwhelming.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 7, 2015)

hartkem said:


> Well it's been several days since I added the duct. The duct is really putting out the heat but the room is only a little more comfortable. Essentially all I did was even out the temp more. Before the kitchen was say 72 and the living room would be 69 or 70. Now both rooms are 70. Basically took some heat from the warmer rooms and redirected to cooler room. Now don't get me wrong this is good thing but it still could feel warmer. It does make sense though if you think about the location of the thermostat. It is located in the dining room which has no separation from the living room. By adding the additional duct to the living room the t-stat just reaches set point a little sooner preventing the other rooms in the house from being heated above set point. I do think everything is balanced better now and I guess the solution is to just turn up the t-stat which I haven't done.  Part of the problem is the kitchen floor is much warmer than the living room floor. The kitchen floor is above the utility room where my thermal storage is which stays toasty. Walking on the cooler living room floor from the warm floor is a constant reminder.  I Looked at the drywall in the basement today and the thought of removing it makes me cringe. Lots of square footage and bulkheads make it seem overwhelming.




Correct, depending how, or if, the original duct system was sized or installed, or if a load calc was done, adding another run doesn't often add more heat into the home it just robs Peter to pay Paul.

Possibly balancing the system if the outlets have adjustable dampers or vent covers could move additional CFM into that room.  Try closing down some bedroom vents or others to push more into the cold rooms.


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