# Installing Wood Gassification Boiler With 1000 Gallon Thermal Storage



## Sid (Jan 5, 2015)

Hello all, I've been reading around the forums and planning for some time now, but it's about that time for my first post so here it goes.

New Wood Boiler - Attack DPX 45 Profi

Thermal Storage - Two 500 gallon 're-purposed' propane tanks stacked horizontally on top of each other.

New Chimney - Haven't ordered it yet but planing on doing DuraTech double-wall stainless. Installed inside house (just have to go up through one bedroom then out top (bedroom has cathedral ceilings)).

Existing Setup - Buderus Logano G115 Oil Boiler, Buderus Logalux ST150 Indirect Fired Domestic Hot Water Tank, 1 Circulator with 4 zones on zone valves, 1 zone for DHW and, 2 for each bedroom, and 1 for the living room.

Plans: I plan to install and configure controls the way Nofossil explains: 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/pressurized-storage-solution-for-biomass-boilers/


What I have done so far (with video explination):

Got the new boiler in house: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLBbsgTeluo

Video of existing setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-Z9NZzMufc

Cleaned and placed bottom tank:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLK8x8mm5dw

Cleaned and plan to place top tank tonight (wish me luck...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlSDzZypNUY

Cleaned, Painted and placed stand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrtbwT1wsfM

I found the three 500 gal tanks and stand on craigslist and paid $1200 (super lucky find I think). They are a little rusty but the guy I bought them from said they did work and he seemed like a decent guy. The tanks have ports all over the place as the video and drawing illustrates. He basically told me he simply out-grew the system for his heating needs and for how long he is away from home for extended periods of time. 

I only have room to stack two tanks on top of each other. I know ideally I would like them vertical but don't have space for that either.

The above YouTube videos explain all of the tanks' and port locations and sizes. I have also attached some pictures and a very rough drawing of tanks with dimensions. I plan to 3D Model the tanks and stand with dimensions, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I also plan to modify Nofossil's plumbing schematic and electrical schematic to better fit my needs, basically just add another zone like I have and use Caleffi's ThermoBloc. 

I'm no HVAC technician but do consider myself somewhat competent of a handyman. I can weld, solder, do basic carpentry, and went to school for engineering. I work as a teacher (IT) in a vocational high school and am friends with the HVAC instructor who has many years of experience. Once the final tank is in place and boiler is in place and I install the chimney, I may leave the rest of the work in the hands of that HVAC teacher or my brother from Colorado who is a hydronics engineer (if he is willing to make the trip).

One issue I hope to receive feedback about is that of the expansion tank. Along with the three 500 gallon tanks and stand, there is a custom made expansion tank he had made from what seems to be about a 150-200 gal propane tank. This would technically be considered a 'compression tank' since there is no bladder. Since there is no bladder both my brother and HVAC teacher don't think it is wise to use due to air and corrosion over the long term (I don't care about the periodic maintenance of checking level and draining/charging). This is a shame since an Extrol style expansion tank with bladder is not cheap for this size system.

I will take pics and a video of the expansion/compression tank and try to post later tonight.

Any thoughts, suggestions, criticisms, and concerns are greatly appreciated. I will keep this post as up to date as I can, thanks.


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2015)

Do you have a high place you could put that expansion tank?

I am heading into winter 3 with just an ordinary 110 gallon LP tank for an expansion (compression) tank, sitting upright on the floor beside my storage. But I have an SX90V sized bladder tank ordered that I will be shoehorning into that space for next winter. I do find I get some air moving into my system from the 110 over time - it's not much and happens very slowly but it seems to make a beeline for my upstairs zones and creates an airlock, which I then have to bleed back out. That airlock seems to happen a couple times a winter. IF I had a place to put my current tank up high (like the highest point on my system or higher), I would do that. But I don't. I did it this way originally because of the high cost of a 'proper' bladder tank of the right size and the place I got my tanks at ahd a mountain of them for cheap. I have since decided to do a hybrid thing. I also have a 20 gallon compression tank in the joists above my boiler that was there for my old one - I just left it there & piped it in to top of boiler. I also picked up a 15 gallon one that I will plumb into top of storage, and I can locate that one up high, against the ceiling of my basement stairway. So between those two compression tanks, and replacing the 100 gallon LP tank with the 90V, I should have enough expansion & eliminate the airlock situation. My boiler manual has provision for installing an open expansion tank, 8' above the highest system point. So I'm pretty sure my 110 gallon LP tank would work up there too - but even after 3 years of thinking about it, I just don't have a place that high to put it.


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## Sid (Jan 5, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Do you have a high place you could put that expansion tank?
> 
> I am heading into winter 3 with just an ordinary 110 gallon LP tank for an expansion (compression) tank, sitting upright on the floor beside my storage. But I have an SX90V sized bladder tank ordered that I will be shoehorning into that space for next winter. I do find I get some air moving into my system from the 110 over time - it's not much and happens very slowly but it seems to make a beeline for my upstairs zones and creates an airlock, which I then have to bleed back out. That airlock seems to happen a couple times a winter. IF I had a place to put my current tank up high (like the highest point on my system or higher), I would do that. But I don't. I did it this way originally because of the high cost of a 'proper' bladder tank of the right size and the place I got my tanks at ahd a mountain of them for cheap. I have since decided to do a hybrid thing. I also have a 20 gallon compression tank in the joists above my boiler that was there for my old one - I just left it there & piped it in to top of boiler. I also picked up a 15 gallon one that I will plumb into top of storage, and I can locate that one up high, against the ceiling of my basement stairway. So between those two compression tanks, and replacing the 100 gallon LP tank with the 90V, I should have enough expansion & eliminate the airlock situation. My boiler manual has provision for installing an open expansion tank, 8' above the highest system point. So I'm pretty sure my 110 gallon LP tank would work up there too - but even after 3 years of thinking about it, I just don't have a place that high to put it.




I could fit the tank in a closet upstairs, but could probably only get it a few feet above the highest point in the system (not the 8' like your manual is looking for). If you and others chime in and think that is a good idea I would be willing to give it a go. I just really don't want to ruin 2 nice boilers and storage tanks to corrosion/air. The house is a log home with only 2 levels. One ground level where boilers are (walk out basement on slab) and a living level above that. 8' ceilings in basement and cathedrals upstairs/main level.


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## ewdudley (Jan 5, 2015)

Sid said:


> I could fit the tank in a closet upstairs, but could probably only get it a few feet above the highest point in the system (not the 8' like your manual is looking for).


The 4'-8' above highest point is for an open expansion cistern that is at atmospheric pressure, not a compression tank (or bladder tank).

Since you've got a compression tank that is sealed you can simply try to get the tank above the top of storage.  If the water leaving the boiler goes uphill directly to to  top of storage, and the top of storage is connected directly to your compression tank somewhere above the top of storage, then any gas that comes out of solution in the hot boiler will find its way to the top of storage and then to the compression tank.  Since the supply line from the top of storage that feeds your loads will be flooded at all times then there won't be any gas migration from storage into your heating system.


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## Tennman (Jan 5, 2015)

I regret not going to see a properly running system. As a DIY'er I got lots of great advice here during my learning years (which is now 6 years and ongoing) but it would have been very productive if I had actually seen what a healthy gasification flame looked like, heard the roar first hand, and understood the importance of seasoned wood early. Being in the NE it's likely there's someone not far away who would be glad to show their system operating at the peak of the heating season. Sounds like you're making great choices and have lots of help. Congrats


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## cityboy172 (Jan 5, 2015)

Tennman said:


> I regret not going to see a properly running system. As a DIY'er I got lots of great advice here during my learning years (which is now 6 years and ongoing) but it would have been very productive if I had actually seen what a healthy gasification flame looked like, heard the roar first hand, and understood the importance of seasoned wood early. Being in the NE it's likely there's someone not far away who would be glad to show their system operating at the peak of the heating season. Sounds like you're making great choices and have lots of help. Congrats




This. I wish there was someone closer for me to look at. I'm in week 1.5, and it's a little nerve racking, especially with this bitter cold snap. I'm a nervous wreck right now.Would of liked a couple more weeks before we got into sub zero temps.


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## Sid (Jan 6, 2015)

I was able to finally get that top propane tank on top of the stand last night. Surprisingly it went on fairly easy. 
Check out the video and pictures below if you'd like.

Top Tank on Stand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeIWldZ2x4k


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## brant2000 (Jan 6, 2015)

I've never really heard it mentioned before (maybe it has), but what do you all think about using the top void space of storage tanks for expansion?  I actually just did this the other day, and all has been working well (albeit my tank is much smaller than these).  The idea is that as long as you have dead space above the top tank port and a vent above that, I was able to use the vent to force an air bubble into the top of the tank.  I just connected an air hose with about 25 PSI and pushed a few gallons out of a system drain.


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## ewdudley (Jan 6, 2015)

brant2000 said:


> I've never really heard it mentioned before (maybe it has), but what do you all think about using the top void space of storage tanks for expansion?  I actually just did this the other day, and all has been working well (albeit my tank is much smaller than these).  The idea is that as long as you have dead space above the top tank port and a vent above that, I was able to use the vent to force an air bubble into the top of the tank.  I just connected an air hose with about 25 PSI and pushed a few gallons out of a system drain.


You bet, it works the same as having a compression tank connected to the top of storage.  I think you would want the air vent connection and a clear or translucent sight pipe (oxygen barrier PEX works well enough) outside the insulation so you could keep an eye on it, and to be able to maintain the system if you ever needed to make a change.

Keep in mind that you will need on the order of  10% or more of dead space above the upper port.


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## Sid (Jan 6, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> You bet, it works the same as having a compression tank connected to the top of storage.  I think you would want the air vent connection and a clear or translucent sight pipe (oxygen barrier PEX works well enough) outside the insulation so you could keep an eye on it, and to be able to maintain the system if you ever needed to make a change.
> 
> Keep in mind that you will need on the order of 100 gallons of dead space above the upper port.



brant2000, that seems like a good idea and would be quite easy since my top tank has 2 large out ports. Not sure how well the pics show it but there is one 2" pipe out on very top and another 2" slightly lower on side. Like ewdudley states, I will need to make sure there is enough of a cavity above side out for the 100 gal necessary. 

Can anybody speak to the issue of dissolved oxygen causing problems over time in the system? This is one of the main issues why bladders are used now and compression tanks are considered a thing of the past (I know another issue was the lower maintenance of a bladder system, but that isn't really too large of a concern for me). Also, what if the cavity was charged with something inert like argon or something like CO2 that doesn't propagate oxidation/rust. I'm no chemist but maybe there is one here in these great forums. Just because it doesn't let rust/oxidation doesn't make it a solve all...for example there is the issue of acidity, etc.


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## brant2000 (Jan 6, 2015)

Sid said:


> brant2000, that seems like a good idea and would be quite easy since my top tank has 2 large out ports. Not sure how well the pics show it but there is one 2" pipe out on very top and another 2" slightly lower on side. Like ewdudley states, I will need to make sure there is enough of a cavity above side out for the 100 gal necessary..



Exactly, and in either case, you'll want to use the ports that enter horizontally, rather than the top/bottom mounted ports (for less mixing/better stratification).  Theoretically, you could put air bubbles in both tanks, if one doesn't provide enough capacity. 

Others may have a much better understanding of the chemistry than I do, but I believe the oxygen within that bubble of air will continue to migrate into the water until it is all disolved.  Since hot water cannot support dissolved oxygen; however, it should progressively precipitate (I know this isn't the correct term) out and should be removed by a scoop/air vent.


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## ewdudley (Jan 6, 2015)

With a bladder expansion tank system the dissolved gases that come out of solution in the boiler should find their way to the air eliminator and should leave the system forever.

The old compression tank systems had a vent in the top of the boiler and a vent at the top of the air separator, both of which were piped up to the compression tank with no venting to atmosphere.  The compression tank was typically located in the floor joists above the boiler.  These systems can run for decades with all gases accumulated in the compression tank.

In a system with a [solid fuel] boiler and storage a compression tank can work well if the tank is situated such that all gases that come out of solution in the boiler can find their way up to a compression tank, and such that any gases that go back into solution stay in solution until they come back around to the boiler.  In this case there generally is no need for an air eliminator, and if one is used it should be closed off after the system is up running.

Where a compression tank does not work quite as well is where the tank sits off to the side and  cool water dissolves gases that are then taken out of solution in the boiler, and then are vented to atmosphere by an air eliminator, or find their way to be trapped in high points of the system.


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## DaveBP (Jan 6, 2015)

Don't use CO2. When it is dissolved into water it becomes an acid and you want just the opposite in your boiler water.

Nitrogen is pretty inert under these conditions and is probably cheaper than Argon. 

I just used the same chemicals used by Garn boilers (open to atmosphere) because my brain was starting to lockup trying to decide what to do. Cheaper than buying a nitrogen tank and regulator.


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## maple1 (Jan 6, 2015)

When I reset my pressures this fall, I took my little 5 gallon air pig to my local tire guy, and he filled it with nitrogen. That turned out to be just enough to recharge my compression tank. (BTW that whole nitrogen-in-tires thing seems a bit hokey to me - he just stuck some sort of magic 'nitrogen wand' on the end of his ordinary compressor hose & used that. Assume it scrubs nitrogen from the air?).

Anyway, on a somewhat related note & in the strange coincidence category - after posting what I did above last night about dealing with an airlock in one zone a couple times a winter, a couple hours later I was dealing with it. Noticed that one upstairs zone was cold on the far end - rads were warm at the front of it, guess it was airlocked to a trickle. It was easy to fix, got a system down and leave short hoses attached to hose bibs so just had to close one valve & open another for a few moments. But in doing that, I studied my expansion (compression) tank location & tie-in again, and came to the conclusion/revelation that this airlock issue was being caused by air migrating out of the expansion tank through the water - and when it was hitting its T just upstream of the load circ, was migrating the other way, up the zone return pipe backwards, right into that zone return pipe. That problem zone return pipe is last back to the manifold, so would be the first the air would hit if it was seeping/bubbling up the return pipe against the flow. I suspect this happens when zone flows are very low or stopped (like when charging storage but zones not calling for heat) - which is more often now since I installed the Alpha and reduced my flows. And also explains why the air scoop on the supply side of the zone piping wasn't helping with it.

Already looking forward to getting the new bladder tank put in for next winter (but not the install process) - good thing I don't need it right away, ordered it a month ago & still no word on it. Just wish I had a high place for the tank I have now, pretty sure it would work fine if I could get it up on the second floor somewhere.

EDIT: Forgot to add, the 5 gallon nitrogen fill was free.


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## DaveBP (Jan 6, 2015)

maple1 said:


> magic 'nitrogen wand'



Yes, magic. And free was the honest price.


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## Fred61 (Jan 6, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Forgot to add, the 5 gallon nitrogen fill was free


Great price if it was truly nitrogen. I didn't know it was that easy to separate nitrogen from the other elements in air. I used to pay big money for pure nitrogen when I was applying spray coatings.


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## maple1 (Jan 6, 2015)

Was a gizmo something like this:

http://nitrogentirefilling.com/parker-tyre-saver-tire-wand.html

(Sorry for the thread derail - my last nitrogen comment...)


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 6, 2015)

brant2000 said:


> I've never really heard it mentioned before (maybe it has), but what do you all think about using the top void space of storage tanks for expansion?  I actually just did this the other day, and all has been working well (albeit my tank is much smaller than these).  The idea is that as long as you have dead space above the top tank port and a vent above that, I was able to use the vent to force an air bubble into the top of the tank.  I just connected an air hose with about 25 PSI and pushed a few gallons out of a system drain.




That's basically how a solar drainback system operates, captivating an air bubble in the upper portion of a tank, it could be a separate drawback tank, or the upper portion of the buffer, really doesn't matter.

 You do want a sight glass to watch and maintain that bubble, and yes it can still be a pressurized system and have that air bubble trapped.

You may need to replenish some air from time to time as it can re-absorb into the hot fluid.  Also use a B&G airtrol fitting that puts any air eliminated from the piping up into the "space" or compression tank.

Compression tank systems are considered air management, while bladder tanks are air elimination systems.

Be sure to run the calcs how much expansion "space" is required, it's much larger than a bladder or diaphragm tank. 

 The Wessel tank site has a free calculator for compression tank sizing.  Convert that answer into the space in your tank.


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## Sid (Jan 6, 2015)

Thank you all for all the great tips/info. I plan to really look into the idea of using the top cavity of my top storage tank as the necessary 'cushion'. I'll need to do some measurements and calculations to make sure I have the volume above the port.

DaveBP, I actually considered installing the Garn Jr. a while back but with my needs it didn't seem as good of a fit (having to heat storage first then demand.) The concept of using the chemicals (which is necessary for un-pressurized systems) had been a thought of mine but when mentioned to my brother and HVAC instructor, they both didn't seem to have much experience with that. My brother has experience with glycol systems but that might end up costing as much as a bladder tank when talking about 1000 gallon plus system.

Bob Rohr, a sight glass indeed (actually clear pex for me [home made]) would be for sure happening if I were to do it that way. And filling/charging once and a while is no problem for me.

Still, the big question I have is...with 100 gal or so of 'air', being sometimes dissolved and then going through new boiler, steel tanks, and expensive existing cast iron Buderus boiler, is that air going to cause issues (corrosion, sludge, dirty water, air pockets, etc.) over time? I know the little bit of air that gets through the wrong type (non oxygen barrier) of Pex can cause issues ...what will 100 gal space of it do? Some theories say that once the steel get's their 'glaze' of rust and no other air is added, there shouldn't be any issues (not enough O2 to cause issues)...others say no good - that's why compression tanks are not used anymore. Chemicals may be good, but do they expire or become less effective over time; and where does the cost of bladder expansion tank come close to that of chemicals? 

Sorry for all the questions, I can go on and on with the questions...this is great forum and I already greatly appreciate the help already. Wife is kicking me off computer but I'll be back soon. Thanks again.


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## Energy (Jan 7, 2015)

Just browsing around fourm. Been thinking of installing a wood boiler for quite some time. Considering similar but maybe outdoor wood boiler. Came across this thread. Excited to see how this all works out!! One question is what do you mean by "Cushion" of air in the top tank? Is this not going to be a presurized system? Maybe just reading wrong?


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## brant2000 (Jan 7, 2015)

Energy said:


> One question is what do you mean by "Cushion" of air in the top tank? Is this not going to be a presurized system? Maybe just reading wrong?



It is a pressurized system...the "cushion" is just a pocket of gas (air) that allows for the hot water in the system to expand.  Since liquids effectively cannot be compressed, yet they will expand as the temperature increases, they will take up more volume...that "cushion" provides the volume for the expanded liquid.


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## Energy (Jan 7, 2015)

I'm assuming this 1000 gallon plus everything else lets say 1050-1100 is the total system volume. Using the storage tanks (top tank specifically) as a Compression Tank would result in needing about double the amount of space as compared to a typical bladder or Diaphragm expansion tank. Rule of thumb for closed loop expansion tank sizing with a bladder is 8-10 percent based off typical boiler temps.  Other systems with larger operating temp deltas may require even more. Open systems are also different. Basically you would need 160+ gallons of a non disturbed air pocket at the top of your storage tank which is not vertical. This is not achievable from what I can see. Your main horizontal inlet coming from the top tank ( from what i can see from pics) would be way to close to not disturb the air and most likely pull air from the storage even if you were to install a vertical "straw" using the union looking top port. But lets make another observation....this is a completely ferrous metal system. That amount of air in a tank will rot it out so fast. Even with a crazy high ph level this will rust. Black iron pipe can have dissolved oxygen in the piping because the inner pipe will form an oxidized layer of magnetite and will be "protected" by the thin layer. Having a completely air filled cavity in a steel tank with boiler water and high temps just sounds foolish. Do you not see rust pour out of the bottom port of your air compressor when you drain it?


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## brant2000 (Jan 7, 2015)

Energy said:


> In a non presurized system this 1000 gallon plus everything else lets say 1050-1100 total system volume. Using the storage tanks (top tank specifically) as a Compression Tank would result in needing about double the amount of space as compared to a typical bladder or Diaphragm expansion tank. Rule of thumb for closed loop expansion tank sizing with a bladder is 8-10 percent based off typical boiler temps.  Other systems with larger operating temp deltas may require even more. Open systems are also different. Basically you would need 160+ gallons of a non disturbed air pocket at the top of your storage tank which is not vertical. This is not achievable from what I can see. Your main horizontal inlet coming from the top tank ( from what i can see from pics) would be way to close to not disturb the air and most likely pull air from the storage even if you were to install a vertical "straw" using the union looking top port. But lets make another observation....this is a completely ferrous metal system. That amount of air in a tank will rot it out so fast. Even with a crazy high ph level this will rust. Black iron pipe can have disolved oxygen in the piping because the inner pipe will form an oxidized layer of magnetite and will be "protected" by the thin layer. Having a completely air filled cavity in a steel tank with boiler water and high temps just sounds foolish. Do you not see rust pour out of the bottom port of your air compressor when you drain it?



Please take a look at some of the previous comments/discussion regarding dissolved oxygen/corrosion.  It may still be of a slight concern (personally I would expect this to present no real issues), but that would be up to the system owner/installer to determine.  

Regarding the volume available... you wouldn't want to use the immediate top port, as that would introduce too much mixing in the tank.  The OP would have to determine how much available there would be above the other top port.


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## Energy (Jan 7, 2015)

Sid is also correct in reading that non oxygen barrier pex can allow air to get into the tubing and into the loop.  Many issues with that. Non oxygen barrier for domestic water such as AquaPex brand. HePex brand for ferrous apps.  Domestic water is filled with air yet all the components and plumbing for the domestic use non ferrous material such as the copper in the pipes, the ceramic in the heater tank, the brass ball valves, the bronze heat exchangers, the stainless fittings. Bring on the air,...just not in boiler loops,,,,unless of course everything is stainless and copper including the circs...now that would be pretty to look at.


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## Energy (Jan 7, 2015)

brant2000 said:


> Regarding the volume available... you wouldn't want to use the immediate top port, as that would introduce too much mixing in the tank. The OP would have to determine how much available there would be above the other top port.


I agree completely with the theory that this will introduce more thermal mixing around the immediate area yet I do not believe that you will lose much stratification even in a small 500 gallon tank. these 2in ports will cut the flow significantly especially if sid was to extend the 2in ports a little further.


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## Energy (Jan 7, 2015)

im very curious to see what the temp diffs are from top of top tank to bottom of bottom tank. Wondering how well two tanks act together as one big tank or two stratified tanks?


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## maple1 (Jan 8, 2015)

I've got two 330 gallon tanks, horizontal, one on top of the other. My 2 temp sensors are in the middle of the tank ends, surface mounted. Tanks are 30" diameter, with blocking between them, so say the sensors are 3' apart. Yesterday morning when I got up, the temps were 135/175. So 40 degrees difference in 3 feet. Quite satisfactory stratification.


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## Sid (Jan 8, 2015)

maple1 said:


> I've got two 330 gallon tanks, horizontal, one on top of the other. My 2 temp sensors are in the middle of the tank ends, surface mounted. Tanks are 30" diameter, with blocking between them, so say the sensors are 3' apart. Yesterday morning when I got up, the temps were 135/175. So 40 degrees difference in 3 feet. Quite satisfactory stratification.



Great to hear they should stratify well since I two was worried about stratification, limited by space and positioning options I really had no other choice though. My tanks will only be connected by that 2" pipe as shown in drawing and videos/pics. Maple1, do you happen to have any pics of your storage and how it is connected? Would be great to see.

Can anyone else speak to how well or poor my setup will provide stratification? During heating months (especially like temps now!) I don't see much of an issue since I'll be burning quite a bit, but during the summer I hope to only have to fire once and a while to prove domestic hot water.

As for the expansion/compression tank, I can get an 86 gallon diaphragm one for about $500. Relative to the rest of the system cost and labor, it seems it might just be worth me sucking up the price and getting the diaphragm style. I originally was looking at the Froling FHG until I stumbled across the Attack DPX Profi which saved me over $4,000, so in the realm of things I'm still within planned budget. Just had to fill up oil tank yesterday and that alone was over $400...boy I can't wait to stop buying oil (this is only the second tank I've every bought in my life but it still hurts).

Thanks again to all contributors.


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## Sid (Jan 8, 2015)

Also, forgot to mention that one of my students who wants to be a game designer is almost finished 3D modeling the tanks and stand. His goal is to create the entire boiler room virtually, and if so I will host it online for everyone to 'walk around' in.


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## maple1 (Jan 8, 2015)

Sid said:


> Great to hear they should stratify well since I two was worried about stratification, limited by space and positioning options I really had no other choice though. My tanks will only be connected by that 2" pipe as shown in drawing and videos/pics. Maple1, do you happen to have any pics of your storage and how it is connected? Would be great to see.


 
Should be something in my install thread linked in my sig - forget now what all I put there, been a while since I've been back to it.


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## Bob Rohr (Jan 8, 2015)

Sid said:


> Thank you all for all the great tips/info. I plan to really look into the idea of using the top cavity of my top storage tank as the necessary 'cushion'. I'll need to do some measurements and calculations to make sure I have the volume above the port.
> 
> DaveBP, I actually considered installing the Garn Jr. a while back but with my needs it didn't seem as good of a fit (having to heat storage first then demand.) The concept of using the chemicals (which is necessary for un-pressurized systems) had been a thought of mine but when mentioned to my brother and HVAC instructor, they both didn't seem to have much experience with that. My brother has experience with glycol systems but that might end up costing as much as a bladder tank when talking about 1000 gallon plus system.
> 
> ...




Don't confuse air with O2  in regards to closed loop hydronic systems.  The initial gulp of O2 in the fill water reacts with the water and caused some oxidation, in small amounts that is good as it protects the surfaces of the metal from further corrosion.  Think of anodized aluminum, that "rust" layer provides the protection for the aluminum.

The O2 in the closed system is "consumed" in this oxidation process and once that happen no further corrosion should occur.  The system becomes O2 neutral, so to speak.

With open systems, or non barrier tubing, that allows O2 into the system, corrosion can continue, as the O2 source continues to be replenished.  Good reason not to flush and add fresh water to hydronic systems, ever.

It's the O2 molecule we are talking about, if the tube leaked air, then the stuff on the inside, would end up being stuff on the outside.  And you see puddles 

In a perfect world with perfect water quality (for boilers) there would be no need for hydronic conditioner fluids.  I don't remember ever seeing corrosion issues when I started this trade back in the 60's.  I believe because we piped with steel and copper, there was no PE, PB, PAB, PEert tube back then, systems stayed O2 free for decades.

Once radiant and plastics hit the market corrosion issues came along with it.

There are other places where O2 could get into a system, like air vents for example, improperly applied they can allow small dosages of fresh air (O2) into the systems, common with high head circs pumping towards expansion tanks.

Keep in mind the O2 barriers on pex tube SLOW the O2 ingress, the barriers  cannot stop it 100% like copper and steel piping.  I prefer the tube with aluminum layers for this reason, but still some ingress potential at fittings.  

The hotter you run the fluids in PE  (polyethylene) tube the higher the rate of O2 ingress.  PEX = PE that has been cross linked (X) to limit O2 ingress, that is where the name PEX comes from.

 Those 180- 200° operating systems will continue to inhale higher %'s of O2 even with barrier tube.  Hence the large market for hydronic conditioner fluids, they scavenge the O2 with a chemical romance.  But it is a never ending romance.


----------



## Fred61 (Jan 8, 2015)

In my opinion the xlinking does not have any effect on he prevention of 02 ingress. It is the process that gives PE more integrity and improves it's ability to maintain it's shape. 02 barrier is normally a coating or a metal such as Pex al pex.


----------



## stee6043 (Jan 9, 2015)

I've got two stacked 500 gallon tanks similar to what you're installing, Sid.  My tanks stratify quite nicely.  Generally I'll see 40 degrees difference between top and bottom (top of top tank, bottom of bottom tank).  I have dip tubes in my tanks installed to within 6" or so of the bottom.


----------



## Sid (Jan 10, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Should be something in my install thread linked in my sig - forget now what all I put there, been a while since I've been back to it.



Maple1, I read through your entire post/installation. Nice job!!


----------



## Sid (Jan 10, 2015)

stee6043 said:


> I've got two stacked 500 gallon tanks similar to what you're installing, Sid.  My tanks stratify quite nicely.  Generally I'll see 40 degrees difference between top and bottom (top of top tank, bottom of bottom tank).  I have dip tubes in my tanks installed to within 6" or so of the bottom.



So it seems like these tanks are going to stratify just fine according to what you and others are posting for temps. 

Another big question I've been having in regards to stratification is how to return the water from load. Nofossil shows in his diagram (which I have been pretty much been planing to use) that he is returning water from load only to the bottom of bottom tank. If my return water is let's say 20 degrees less than supply, wouldn't that only let me get about 20 degrees stratification (when returning to bottom of bottom tank)? I've read post about properly 'loading' and returning to the storage and remember something about using diverter valves (i think) to match return temps to that of which is currently in the tanks. The European storage tanks engineered for thermal storage have many ports all the way down the tank, possibly for this reason? 

Basically, I feel like with radiators (and possibly not enough of them) the return temps will be too high to send right to bottom of bottom tank, and when I do I will be selling myself short on overall storage capacity due to mixing.

Any thoughts?


----------



## stee6043 (Jan 10, 2015)

Sid said:


> So it seems like these tanks are going to stratify just fine according to what you and others are posting for temps.
> 
> Another big question I've been having in regards to stratification is how to return the water from load. Nofossil shows in his diagram (which I have been pretty much been planing to use) that he is returning water from load only to the bottom of bottom tank. If my return water is let's say 20 degrees less than supply, wouldn't that only let me get about 20 degrees stratification (when returning to bottom of bottom tank)? I've read post about properly 'loading' and returning to the storage and remember something about using diverter valves (i think) to match return temps to that of which is currently in the tanks. The European storage tanks engineered for thermal storage have many ports all the way down the tank, possibly for this reason?
> 
> ...



I am living what you're describing and I would say it's not worth investing in more controls to optimize this return temp quandri.  Return your load to the bottom of your bottom tank and live happily knowing you're sacrificing such a small amount of efficiency you'd never be able to measure it.

Unless your load is running 100% of the time you'll still get the stratification even if you're pumping higher temp water in through the bottom.  It's like magic....or physics...or thermodynamics.  You pick.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 10, 2015)

When I got up this morning, my readings were 129/170. So 40° again in 3 feet of tank height.

My return is to the very bottom.

A big part of maintaining stratification is how big your load flows are. I swapped a 15-58 3 speed circ out for an Alpha after my first winter. And I also then played with the ball valves on my zones and currently have them throttled about half way. So I have pretty slow flows through my zones. Which widened my delta-T quite a bit and gets me a bit farther on storage. I haven't precisely measured it, but with the stratification I see it must be pretty wide. That works for my particualr baseboard arrangement - the house is still staying warm and the rooms on the ends of the zones (mainly smallish bathrooms) are still staying comfortable. If my kitchen was on the end of its zone rather than the beginning of it, it might not work so good. My tank tappings are also horizontal where they go in & out of the tanks. Just the way I did it, didn't really think about the effect it might have on stratification at the time.


----------



## Clarkbug (Jan 10, 2015)

You can get a thermal diverting valve that would send your return water around the loop again if you dont want it coming back to storage.  Might be more trouble than its worth, but helps stretch things out some if you dont need 180 to get heat from your emitters.


----------



## Sid (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks all for the real life results/replies. I was going to just go for it anyways since this installation is dragging on and on as it is, but now I feel much better knowing things are actually going to work ok. I've been told that maybe I should consider adding an additional 2" port and then I could use these as two separate stratified tanks, kind of like Clarkbug's avatar pic. I don't feel like adding another fitting at this point and I feel I'd be happy with the results you all are posting.


----------



## ewdudley (Jan 10, 2015)

Sid said:


> Basically, I feel like with radiators (and possibly not enough of them) the return temps will be too high to send right to bottom of bottom tank, and when I do I will be selling myself short on overall storage capacity due to mixing.
> Any thoughts?


Ever since I started studying the topic I've accepted the idea that [pressurized] storage tank stratification is quite important and that avoiding storage tank mixing is an important design goal.

So here's the numbers from a simple realistic model:


```
175 starting_temperature
  300 gallon storage_per_zone
10000 btu/hour zone_load
   15 feet zone_length
    3 zone_gpm

t_begin=175.00 t_end=164.70 t_drop=10.30 btu=15448 duty=0.647 lap_minutes=154 t=154
t_begin=164.70 t_end=155.67 t_drop= 9.03 btu=13552 duty=0.738 lap_minutes=136 t=290
t_begin=155.67 t_end=147.74 t_drop= 7.93 btu=11889 duty=0.841 lap_minutes=119 t=409
t_begin=147.74 t_end=140.79 t_drop= 6.95 btu=10430 duty=0.959 lap_minutes=104 t=513
85533

t_begin=145.41 t_end=138.74 t_drop= 6.67 btu=10001 duty=1.000                 t=544
90647
```

Calculations are done for a single zone of baseboard emitter, with a certain amount of storage allocated to just the one zone for modeling purposes, and likewise for zone gpm and zone emitter length.

Using manufacturer's data for btu per hour per foot of emitter as a function of water temperature it's pretty straightforward to figure out what the temperature drop is for a given millimeter of emitter at any given gpm.

In the example above we start out with 175 degF water that returns to the tank at 164.7 degF.  The thermostat calls for heat 64.7 percent of the time, and it takes 154 minutes before the top of storage is at 164.7 degF.

On the next lap the water temperature is lower, so the thermostat calls for heat 73.8 percent of the time.  And so forth until the the supply temperature is too low to keep up even when pumping 100 percent of the time.

Total elapsed time 513 minutes. Total btu extracted from storage 85,533 btu.

Then we assume there is a mixing valve that lowers the supply temperature such that the thermostat calls for heat 100 percent of the time and the zone load is perfectly satisfied.

Total elapsed time 544 minutes.  Total btu extracted from storage 90,647.

Nine hours between fires instead of eight and a half, not a compelling case for getting all worked up about stratification.

Then again, if we have one or two loads that need higher supply temperatures (for instance DHW or a single baseboard zone when all the others are over-sized radiators), then it could definitely make sense to implement strategies that will keep the top of storage hot for as long as possible, so YMMV.

Here's the code if you'd like to review the methodology:


```
use strict;

my $gallon_tank = 300.0;
my $t_0 = 175.0;
my $gpm_pump = 3.0;
my $load = 10000;
my $l = 15.0;
my $t_end = $t_0;
my $t_begin = 0.0;
my $t_begin_was = 0.0;
my $t_drop = 0.0;
my $btu = 0.0;
my $btu_tank = 0.0;
my $duty;
my $gpm;
my $lap_minutes;
my $t = 0;

sub btu_per_foot {
   my $degF = shift;
   return(2.0 * (($degF * 6.5) - 592));
}

sub t_drop_btu {
   my $inc = 0.1;
   $t_drop = 0;
   $btu = 0;
   for (my $foot = 0; $foot < $l; $foot += $inc) {
      my $btu_per_foot = btu_per_foot($t_begin - $t_drop);
      my $t_drop_delta = ($inc * $btu_per_foot) / ($gpm_pump * 500);
      $t_drop += $t_drop_delta;
      $btu += $btu_per_foot * $inc;
   }
   $duty = $load / $btu;
   $gpm = $gpm_pump * $duty;
   $lap_minutes = $gallon_tank / $gpm;
   $t += $lap_minutes;
}

sub p {
   printf("t_begin=%5.2f t_end=%5.2f t_drop=%5.2f btu=%5.0f duty=%5.3f lap_minutes=%3.0f t=%3.0f\n"
    ,$t_begin
    ,$t_end
    ,$t_drop
    ,$btu
    ,$duty
    ,$lap_minutes
    ,$t
   );
}

sub main {
   $t = 0;
   printf("\n");
   printf(
    "%5.0f starting_temperature\n" .
    "%5.0f gallon storage_per_zone\n" .
    "%5.0f btu/hour zone_load\n" .
    "%5.0f feet zone_length\n" .
    "%5.0f zone_gpm\n"
    ,$t_0
    ,$gallon_tank
    ,$load
    ,$l
    ,$gpm_pump
   );
   printf("\n");
   for (my $lap = 0; $lap < 10; $lap++) {
      $t_begin = $t_end;
      t_drop_btu();
      ($duty > 1.0) && (last);
      $t_end -= $t_drop;
      $t_begin_was = $t_begin;
      p();
   }
   $btu_tank = $gallon_tank * 8.333333 * ($t_0 - $t_end);
   printf("%.0f\n", $btu_tank);
   printf("\n");
   $t_begin = $t_begin_was;
   for (my $i = 0; $i < 10000; $i++) {
      t_drop_btu();
      ($duty > 0.9999) && (last);
      $t_begin -= 0.001;
   }

   $t_end = $t_begin - $t_drop;

   my $supply_duty = ($t_begin - $t_end) / ($t_0 - $t_end);
   $btu_tank = $gallon_tank * 8.333333 * ($t_0 - $t_end);
   $t = 60 * $btu_tank / $btu;
   p();
   printf("%.0f\n", $btu_tank);
}


main();
```


----------



## Sid (Jan 10, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> Then again, if we have one or two loads that need higher supply temperatures (for instance DHW...



I am planning to use the wood boiler for DHW in the summer time and hope to prolong in-between burn times. Do you think it is then worth it?


----------



## ewdudley (Jan 10, 2015)

Sid said:


> I am planning to use the wood boiler for DHW in the summer time and hope to prolong in-between burn times. Do you think it is then worth it?


I'm thinking that if you have two or more loads and some load(s) can work with lower temperatures than the other(s) then we could make a case for minimizing the return temperature of the lower temperature load(s) in order to extend the time that unmixed hot water remains available at the top of storage for the benefit of those loads that require higher supply temperatures.

For summertime DHW there wouldn't be any other loads to cause mixing problems.


----------



## Sid (Jan 11, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> I'm thinking that if you have two or more loads and some load(s) can work with lower temperatures than the other(s) then we could make a case for minimizing the return temperature of the lower temperature load(s) in order to extend the time that unmixed hot water remains available at the top of storage for the benefit of those loads that require higher supply temperatures.
> 
> For summertime DHW there wouldn't be any other loads to cause mixing problems.



Sounds good to me. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Sid (Jan 11, 2015)

Just ordered chimney last night, went with Champion Stainless Steel double wall. I decided to go with the 316L stainless inside liner over the 304L stainless inside liner (both have 304L SS outside). Total increase in cost for my 4 x 4' lengths (16' total going up through bedroom and out through cathedral) was less than $200. 316L stainless has better corrosion resistance and even though not required for solid fuel like my wood boiler, it's nice knowing I can hook anything to it I want in possible future. Also, though I don't think condensing will be much of an issue due to my relatively short and relatively warm (located inside house) setup, it's still nice knowing there is the higher quality steel in there. JMO


----------



## maple1 (Jan 11, 2015)

Sid said:


> I am planning to use the wood boiler for DHW in the summer time and hope to prolong in-between burn times. Do you think it is then worth it?


 
Not sure what you have lined up for heating your DHW exactly - but a sidearm doesn't work very good at all in the summer. It will mess up your stratification and your storage will be pretty well useless once it gets below 150 or so. I started out with one, but then added a 20 plate FPHX pumped slowly both sides. Which works very well, I burn every 7 days or so in the summer for DHW. Having said that, I may or may not do it again next summer. Depends what I have for junk wood laying around - it only costs us $25-30/mo for electric DHW.


----------



## ewdudley (Jan 11, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Not sure what you have lined up for heating your DHW exactly - but a sidearm doesn't work very good at all in the summer. It will mess up your stratification and your storage will be pretty well useless once it gets below 150 or so. I started out with one, but then added a 20 plate FPHX pumped slowly both sides. Which works very well, I burn every 7 days or so in the summer for DHW. Having said that, I may or may not do it again next summer. Depends what I have for junk wood laying around - it only costs us $25-30/mo for electric DHW.


I think a lot of us have backed away from using the wood boiler for summer DHW.  In recent years I've been cutting up a pile of dead wood from around the dooryard and keeping it out of the rain until laundry day and then disposing it with the boiler between stints with the lawnmower.


----------



## Bad Wolf (Jan 11, 2015)

Welcome aboard Sid.  Just saw your thread here.  Looks like you are off to a good start, asking all the right questions (and people). I'm in Colchester too, I went with a 1000 gallon non pressurized system so I would be interested in seeing yours sometime.


----------



## Sid (Jan 11, 2015)

Bad Wolf said:


> Welcome aboard Sid.  Just saw your thread here.  Looks like you are off to a good start, asking all the right questions (and people). I'm in Colchester too, I went with a 100 gallon non pressurized system so I would be interested in seeing yours sometime.


Sure thing Bad Wolf, message me sometime and I'd love to have you see what I have so far and plans. Any advise from someone with experience is greatly appreciated.


----------



## Sid (Jan 11, 2015)

ewdudley said:


> I think a lot of us have backed away from using the wood boiler for summer DHW.  In recent years I've been cutting up a pile of dead wood from around the dooryard and keeping it out of the rain until laundry day and then disposing it with the boiler between stints with the lawnmower.


Since we have just moved into this house, I'm not sure how much that oil boiler will need to run for DHW in summer and cost. It's just my wife and I and a new born on the way. Throwing scrap wood in there once and while and starting a fire sounds like not too much of an issue, especially in shoulder season. I'm sure a few super hot months during summer I may not feel like starting a fire, but that's why I hope the way I plan to pipe and control (acording to Nofossil's pinned thread [https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/simplest-pressurized-storage-system-design.16567/]   ) will allow for the oil boiler to come on for DHW in summer, and not have to heat all of storage every time.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 11, 2015)

If your only other source of DHW is an oil boiler say with a tankless coil in it, that's another story. The $25-30/mo I mentioned above is for an electric hot water tank. Before that, before I put my new system in, I had a tankless coil oil boiler and it used 3/4 gallon a day for DHW. Or I should say, for DHW & heat sent up the chimney. Which is why I got rid of the thing all together and the oil tank it was tied to and went with an electric boiler for backup heat. Another factor is keeping an oil boiler hot all summer adds heat to the house & can add load to your a/c. If you have a/c.


----------



## EdisonBurn (Jan 12, 2015)

Hi everyone, EdisonBurn here. First time post and first time member on Hearth.com ...i am also the brother of Sid. Hey Bro...! First off congrats to everyone here for pioneering some of these awesome alternative fuel boilers. Sid, Im stoked to see you giving this a go. I have never really heated with wood before and have never seen a gasification wood boiler ever until Sid called one day and said that he had bought one. I do have a couple questions for the wood boiler community tho.
1) can anyone post piping diagrams, (even a stick figure drawing) of how their own system is plumbed? 
2) are wood boilers more commonly hooked up to a standard hydronic convector baseboard emitters or are wood boilers more likely to be used in a lower temp systems such as infloor rad, or radiant wall/ceiling panels?
3) is there anyone here that has warmed up a room in winter using standard hydronic baseboard (1990s single tube/single fin type) with lower than 140 supply temps and was able to maintain room temp setpoint (68-70degrees)?

Again, thanks everyone for helping my brother out with this adventure. Cant wait to see it get up and running.


----------



## Clarkbug (Jan 12, 2015)

EdisonBurn said:


> Hi everyone, EdisonBurn here. First time post and first time member on Hearth.com ...i am also the brother of Sid. Hey Bro...! First off congrats to everyone here for pioneering some of these awesome alternative fuel boilers. Sid, Im stoked to see you giving this a go. I have never really heated with wood before and have never seen a gasification wood boiler ever until Sid called one day and said that he had bought one. I do have a couple questions for the wood boiler community tho.
> 1) can anyone post piping diagrams, (even a stick figure drawing) of how their own system is plumbed?
> 2) are wood boilers more commonly hooked up to a standard hydronic convector baseboard emitters or are wood boilers more likely to be used in a lower temp systems such as infloor rad, or radiant wall/ceiling panels?
> 3) is there anyone here that has warmed up a room in winter using standard hydronic baseboard (1990s single tube/single fin type) with lower than 140 supply temps and was able to maintain room temp setpoint (68-70degrees)?
> ...



Hi Edison.  Welcome to Hearth.  You should probably start your own thread instead of hopping into this one.

Check the top sticky in the boiler room for some good info on where to start.


----------



## Sid (Jan 13, 2015)

Clarkbug said:


> Hi Edison.  Welcome to Hearth.  You should probably start your own thread instead of hopping into this one.
> 
> Check the top sticky in the boiler room for some good info on where to start.



Started a new thread since I too would love to see diagrams of systems people are using.

You can find it here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/post-your-piping-diagrams.139211/


----------



## Sid (Jan 13, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Not sure what you have lined up for heating your DHW exactly - but a sidearm doesn't work very good at all in the summer. It will mess up your stratification and your storage will be pretty well useless once it gets below 150 or so. I started out with one, but then added a 20 plate FPHX pumped slowly both sides. Which works very well, I burn every 7 days or so in the summer for DHW. Having said that, I may or may not do it again next summer. Depends what I have for junk wood laying around - it only costs us $25-30/mo for electric DHW.



I have a Buderus Logalux ST150 Indirect Fired Domestic Hot Water Tank. It's hooked up as a zone with a zone valve. I believe it is the 42 gallon version. It would be great to fire on the weekend or once and a while with scrap wood to help offset oil cost for DHW.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 13, 2015)

You're making good progress.  Keep the faith.

Although I have a pellet boiler, I think I can add some things, although I hope they haven't been mentioned yet.
-How about a heat pump water heater for the non-wood heating season?  I think CT might have some good rebates.
-I followed the Tarm diagram.  The idea is that when the boiler is running the zone pumps get first crack at it and excess goes into the buffer tank until it gets filled up with heat.
-Now that it's over, I really have a hankering for more instrumentation, but currently my boiler doesn't come with that.  Works great, and I might be slightly obsessive, but if there's anything you can do when things are apart, (thermowells, exhaust temp probes, etc), now might be the time.
-For air elimination I can recommend the Spirovent-the existing air scoop just never seemed to do the job for me.
-The pellet boiler is connected in parallel with the oil boiler.  Check valves ensure the proper flow.
-You have to figure out some way that the oil boiler will be activated.  I used a few RIB relays and Ranco controllers.
-For example, I used the power from the running fan to trigger a relay that controls the aquastat of the boiler.  I figure I don't want them both running at the same time, but you have to think of your scheme.

Uncertain if I contributed or not.  All in all, although the project was nerve-wracking at times, it was fun.


----------



## Sid (Jan 15, 2015)

Been crazy busy lately but wanted to just check quick to keep this install thread alive.

All of the chimney has arrived, I plan to take pics tonight and begin the install soon (hope to finish by end of weekend). 

I also plan to reply and thank later tonight in detail directly to some of posts people have made. Thanks so much, be back later.


----------



## BoiledOver (Jan 15, 2015)

In the photos on the right side, you can see where I sketched the storage with lines going to the height of each sensor locations. One photo from an earlier standby and two photos at different times of the burn today.


----------



## EdisonBurn (Jan 15, 2015)

BoiledOver said:


> In the photos on the right side, you can see where I sketched the storage with lines going to the height of each sensor locations. One photo from an earlier standby and two photos at different times of the burn today.
> 
> 
> View attachment 150783
> ...


Wow thats's super helpful. thanks
Can you post more pics or diagrams of how you piped your system? here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/post-your-piping-diagrams.139211/


----------



## Sid (Jan 16, 2015)

BoiledOver said:


> In the photos on the right side, you can see where I sketched the storage with lines going to the height of each sensor locations. One photo from an earlier standby and two photos at different times of the burn today.
> 
> 
> View attachment 150783
> ...



BoiledOver, could you tell me what (and maybe where to get) kind of temp sensors and display unit you are using...looks like a nice setup.


----------



## Sid (Jan 16, 2015)

Reading around on these forums I see a lot of guys just taping (one guy mentioned JB Weld) temperature probes right to the outside of the tanks. I have ports all over the tanks that i'm sure I could use, would just have to figure out what kind of probes and adapters for hole size and thread type. 

If just taping (I like the thought of JB Weld and metal/foil together) works just as well, I would be inclined to do that for simplicity.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 16, 2015)

I just taped my sensors to the tank surface, under a layer of a scrap of pipe insulation. Works great. My guages look the same as Boiled Overs - Ebay from China. Or Hong Kong.

Suface temp sensors/probes work fine - I would certainly chose one over trying to add another port for a well. My experience with my tanks & welding & fittings leads me to advise to limit your tank penetrations to the bare minimum. Plus they are easy to move around or change afterwards. I also have a Johnson A419 controlling my DHW with an external sensor - no issues.


----------



## Clarkbug (Jan 16, 2015)

I have those same sensors on my tanks/piping.  Secured to the exterior with HVAC tape and some thermal paste for computer heat sinks.  If you have the ports you could put a thermowell in, but I wouldnt put a port in specifically for a temp measurement.


----------



## Sid (Sep 18, 2015)

Hello All, Sorry for dropping off the face of the earth, been busy with other new house projects and a new baby but it's time to stop procrastinating and try to get this system installed before winter hits.

What I've done:

1. Put boiler in final resting spot (on blocks to save the back).
2. Almost finished installing chimney.
3. Figured out how to pipe this thing (hopefully all figured out).
4. Ordered and received almost all of the parts required to pipe.

Attached is a few pics of what I've done as well as the Piping Schematic (current and future plan).

As always, any help and advise is greatly appreciated. I will keep you all posted as I slowly progress.

A special thanks goes out to the guys at Tarm Biomass for helping and talking with me, even though I did not buy boiler from them (I did however buy the BLT 
Controller and Diverter Valve Kit from them).

Current piping of fossil setup:
	

		
			
		

		
	








Final Piping Schematic:






What I've done:


----------



## Sid (Oct 21, 2015)

Coming along, slow but decent so far.



12" of 2" pipe before entering storage to help slow velocity from the 1-1/4.



2" union
	

		
			
		

		
	




First time soldering pipe...


----------



## Sid (Oct 21, 2015)

Also, I hate to double post but please check out my other post here about my latest issue with pipe thread standards and sealing...

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...more-advanced-discussion-than-just-no.147984/


----------



## Sid (Oct 28, 2015)

I created another thread about my expansion tank location, since I'm second guessing what I piped. 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/expansion-tank-location.148379/


----------



## velvetfoot (Oct 28, 2015)

Nice.  I never realized those units are so deep.

Don't forget you have to fill and vent it.  Sometimes those check valves can get in the way of that.  I think my ThermoMix valve got in the way too.


----------



## Sid (Oct 28, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> Nice.  I never realized those units are so deep.
> 
> Don't forget you have to fill and vent it.  Sometimes those check valves can get in the way of that.  I think my ThermoMix valve got in the way too.



Yeah, the firebox looks like it can take some serious logs, I'll actually be limited by my splitter's stroke length. As the for the purging, I have so many valves and fills everywhere I'd assume it shouldn't be too bad, and at this point it's more like I just need to cross one bridge at a time...if I start thinking about too much I just end up walking around in circles in my basement and nothing gets done, hence this year long install...

When the time comes I'll sure I'll be asking for some input and tricks on filling/purging.


----------



## velvetfoot (Oct 28, 2015)

Another thing I remember is cranking real (scary) hard on some fittings with a two foot long wrench to make them not leak.  That might have been on the euro buffer tank.  Perhaps related to the different threads issue you noted, I don't know.  Luckily I was able to crank on a leaker and not disassemble anything.  I have another tip, lol:  make sure you don't miss sweating all your joints.  I had a squirter and that was the (stupid) reason.

Perhaps wire up more tank sensors than you think you need before the tank is insulated.

I put a piece of plywood on the wall to mount the electric doo dads.

I totally did/do the basement circle walking thing too!

I'm no piping expert, but I think your expansion tank location is fine, just make sure you have enough of it.

You're getting close!


----------



## Sid (Dec 8, 2015)

So I have been up and running for a little while now. Had some crazy overheating issues at first due to a faulty controller that New Horizon quickly identified and sent me a new controller. I have many more pictures and issues to to write and reflect on but have limited time these days for posting. I will try to update this post as soon as I can. Here are some pictures to hold you guys over for now.

So far no problems now with new controller and I am super happy with its performance at this point.

Here are links for a couple panorama pictures that were too big for this forum site to upload (even after compressing)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2flzCEcNlMMbS1pV2JzZ29QTEU/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2flzCEcNlMMbnNxSEgyQXhodVE/view?usp=sharing


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