# Englander 28-3500 tips



## Nickshog (Nov 8, 2015)

I just upgraded to the Englander 28-3500 wood furnace from a DutchWest woodstove.
2800 sq ft home
Stove in the basement. .
Any tips or suggestions  on how to "dial it in"..
I cant seem to get the lower air inlet and the upper air control right...I'm  either getting too hot... (never overfired) or too low and getting creosote. ..


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## brenndatomu (Nov 8, 2015)

Hi Nick, welcome to the jungle!  This question has been raised here in the past, if you use the search feature here it may answer some questions for you until the Englander furnace owners show up...


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## Nickshog (Nov 8, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> Hi Nick, welcome to the jungle!  This question has been raised here in the past, if you use the search feature here it may answer some questions for you until the Englander furnace owners show up...


Thanks
I've been reading ALOT... I've been burning wood for a long time and was surprised at the creosote  creation after only 1 fire... learning this thing is gonna be "fun"


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## Nickshog (Nov 8, 2015)

My Dutchwest had the eco burn system in it... this is quite different


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## Nickshog (Nov 9, 2015)

Ok... one night in... 32degrees outside...82 inside...this thing puts out a lot.of heat. ..
Now the creosote situation. .
My existing flue leaves the flue collar and goes up 4' to a 90...then 5.5' to a "tee" then 26' straight up to the cap....there is an incline on the 5.5' section...but i dont think that its enough.
The creosote  was only in the first few sections of pipe and in the stove...
I'm changing the 90 out for 2 ...45 degree bends... then connecting them with a straight pipe... this will remove the horizontal flat run and I  think seriously increase my draft and heat in the pipe....
Thoughts anybody......


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## maple1 (Nov 9, 2015)

I would buy a manometer. Then there will be no guessing on the draft situation.

How full are you loading it? Smaller loads might help for this time of year.


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## Nickshog (Nov 9, 2015)

maple1 said:


> I would buy a manometer. Then there will be no guessing on the draft situation.
> 
> How full are you loading it? Smaller loads might help for this time of year.



Just learned about the manometer.... never needed anything like that with the Dutchwest...

Not that full... still getting used to the stove.. dont want to go too high and hit the baffle plate..

Been reading here alot about this stove...
Coal bed...draft controls... etc


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## KTLM (Nov 10, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> Ok... one night in... 32degrees outside...82 inside...this thing puts out a lot.of heat. ..
> Now the creosote situation. .
> My existing flue leaves the flue collar and goes up 4' to a 90...then 5.5' to a "tee" then 26' straight up to the cap....there is an incline on the 5.5' section...but i dont think that its enough.
> The creosote  was only in the first few sections of pipe and in the stove...
> ...


You're flue install sounds very similar to mine. Drafts really well. These stoves do make some creosote. Burning smaller "hot" fires does help with that issue during relatively warm weather, but will not eliminate it. I check/clean my flue at least once a month when burning regularly. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Also, I have learned that wood must be dry. Borderline moisture content will turn that stove into a creosote factory. At least it does in mine. Generally, I am happy with how mine performs. Plenty of heat, usually goes  6 hours between loads when the weather gets colder. What kind of wood are you burning and how full do you load yours? Would you post the results if you change out the 90 to two 45's. I've been considering the same thing.
Good luck


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## maple1 (Nov 10, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> Just learned about the manometer.... never needed anything like that with the Dutchwest...
> 
> Not that full... still getting used to the stove.. dont want to go too high and hit the baffle plate..
> 
> ...


 
No experience with a Dutchwest, but I think some appliances might 'handle' draft variations better than others. Likely at the cost of efficiency though.

Also, increasing your draft might also give you too much draft, which will then suck more heat up your chimney. Adding draft isn't necessarily a fix for creosote, so the manometer is also to make sure you don't have too much draft. That is a pretty tall chimney. And, draft can vary greatly with weather & wind conditions outside - which a barometric damper will help immensely with, and you can tune in with a manometer.


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## Nickshog (Nov 10, 2015)

I will post before and after pics of the change...

I only burn seasoned oak..maple and cherry...moisture content measured with a meter is always lower than 18%. I check it before bringing it into the house. The wood is seasoned in a covered shed with ventilation front / back and top. 

I have only loaded it with partial loads, but I think that I am not letting the fire get hot enough before closing the air controls. More time in the drivers seat needed here. 

1 thing that I have read is that the spin draft control in the ash door is really only to be used for coal fires. Most of the threads I read here are that this is closed all the way and the air is mainly controlled via the air control at the top..... Correct / No / Advise.....

Speaking to a local fireplace place... they told me that the 2 45's will be better that the single 90. He said and I quote "you are asking that smoke to do an awful lot"

He believed that  since the creosote was only in the stove, lower parts of the vertical and the long horizontal run, that the smoke was cooling to much too soon. I do have stage 1 and 2 creosote in the main vertical. The type of creosote that i an finding in the pipes and stove is not actually stage 3, (tarry) it is more like a liquid, very runny and almost no viscosity. Like black water. When it cooked off it did turn crusty. 

As far as a Manomater.. / Barometric damper, I am going to need your help if I decide to go this route after making the current corrections. If worse comes to worse I can go back to the single 90. I have no idea how to use / "tune in" the damper. 

I have read a few posts here vis-a-vis the damper and it seems that it is half and half with some people installing one under advice from other posters, only to cover it with foil because if didnt "work". Of course it may not have worked because it was not dialed in correctly. 

The Dutchwest now seems like a playskool "my first woodstove" compared to this beast. It was basically a load and go.....hot fire, turn the knob, get the woosh.....done!

Now I almost feel like a mad scientist in the basement. LOL but I am ready to learn... as long as I dont burn the house down.


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## Richie (Nov 10, 2015)

I have a fire chief 500 and an 28 foot insulated class a chimney.  I am burning well seasoned red maple and cherry and getting burn times of about 4 hours.  I am usually burning one fire a day.  When it got cold last year I did three loads a day of mainly locust and oak and had sufficient coals for restart.  My setup only has a spin draft on the bottom and that is all I use.  I use the blower just to start fires.

I think a lot of your problems will clear up when we get into the high 30's.  My setup is drafting poorly right now so I am burning with a lot more air.  The other secret is don't be afraid to make you splits a little larger.  I split between 4 and 8 inches.  Black locust really seems to work well in these stoves.


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## brenndatomu (Nov 10, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> Speaking to a local fireplace place... they told me that the 2 45's will be better that the single 90


True.


maple1 said:


> I would buy a manometer. Then there will be no guessing on the draft situation.


Also true. I think all wood furnaces should have a manometer hooked to the chimney. You'd be amazed at how much the draft can change with temp/wind/whatever, and the draft speed affects a wood burner big time! Check the "for sale" section here for a good deal on a manometer (page 2)

I would tend to lean toward just installing a manual damper in your stove pipe while you are installing the 45* elbows. If you can control things that way I would, a baro comes with its own set of disadvantages IMO. I have one, but keep it covered up with tinfoil most of the time.


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## Nickshog (Nov 10, 2015)

ok... here is the before pic... need a few pieces of pipe to make the new connections. Going to take the advice and put in a manual damper since I have it all open. Tomorrow I should have it done. Any suggestions on where the damper should go?


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## Nickshog (Nov 10, 2015)

BTW when I disconnected the piping at the tee, I felt and heard a nice draft. In fact a piece of tissue paper got sucked right in. Its 60 degrees out and there is a ENE wind at 8mph... the "draft" is most likely the result of the venturi effect on the pipe.....but its promising. The inside of the vertical run showed no creosote...... even more promising.


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## KTLM (Nov 10, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> BTW when I disconnected the piping at the tee, I felt and heard a nice draft. In fact a piece of tissue paper got sucked right in. Its 60 degrees out and there is a ENE wind at 8mph... the "draft" is most likely the result of the venturi effect on the pipe.....but its promising. The inside of the vertical run showed no creosote...... even more promising.


Sounds to me like you have the basics covered. Dry wood, hot fires. I really believe you will like that furnace once you figure out the operation details. Good luck.


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

How far up from the flue collar should the MPD go? I cant seem to find anything that gives an actual measurement or at least a basic guideline.


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2015)

I'd likely just put it somewhere in the middle of that vertical section above the stove.

I could be off - but it sounds like you might have too much draft in your chimney, if it will suck a tissue up when it's 60° out and the wind is only blowing 8mph. I have a 7" flue about the same height, and my barometric damper set for around 0.1". When it's windy out, and if I hold the flapper shut, my draft will easily hit 0.3". It might depend on your specific situation, but it's those conditions that a barometric damper really is good to have. You can adjust a manual damper for a certain time & condition, but conditions usually vary. So unless you're there adjusting the damper, your draft can also vary with them. I'm on an open hilltop, which likely magnifies my variations.

Does the Englander have a draft spec in the manual?


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

No draft spec in the manual.

The existing pipe is being removed and replaced with 2.. 45degree bends.. to make the very flat horizontal run go away. This is believed to be causing the creosote problems or at least greatly contributing to it. I will be coming up about 18" from the flue collar to the first 45... I guess install the MPD just before the first 45?


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## brenndatomu (Nov 11, 2015)

I'd say the damper can go wherever it is convenient in the stove pipe. Most often you see people put them between 1-2' above the stove. 
An average draft setting of -.04" to -.08" would cover 98% of the burners out there. Some go as low as -.03" (my Yukon) for a high reading, my Drolet Tundra specs -.06" for a high. So somewhere in there would be a good start for you...


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2015)

Seems a bit odd that the manual doesn't say anything about chimney draft, or a spec, or dampers either manual or barometric. That's usually a key aspect of consistant proper operation. Or maybe they just didn't want to get into it since it was something else a DIYer might mess up so just put the disclaimers about not overfiring in there to cover themselves.

Too much draft will make things harder to control like it sounds like you were noticing in the first post - a manual damper might help take the edge off that. Keep an eye on it though - I had a manual damper in my old pipe, and sometimes when the wind would gust the wrong way the wrong amount, it would move the damper around and sometimes close it up. Might have been due for a replacement, maybe. I would likely also get a probe flue temp guage to go along with it. Or is that what I see in the pic already?

Just how much creosote did you get anyway? Have a pic of that?


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

OK... all done. I am going to break down what I did in several different posts because I have a few questions to answer and some information that was given to me by someone that knows about these stoves and also owns a fireplace business in South Jersey.

But First I would like to thank everybody that has responded to my questions and have been gracious and kind with their answers. I hope that with the information that I am going to share, that I can do the same for someone as all of you have done for me. 

This is the pic of the after. There is an almost 1" rise from the upper 45 to the "tee", although you cant really tell from the pic. There is a MPD located just above the first 45. 

I have a roaring fire in right now to burn off the new pipe. (it was lit after this pic was taken).


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

OK now for information...
To answer Maple1..... I was making creosote like it was my JOB.... and I was selling it by the ounce. There was literally over a 1/4 cup of liquid runny muck in the bottom of the stove. When I opened the ash door it came out like I spilled a glass of it on the floor. 

I do not have a pic, but it took 2 kitchen towels to clean it up. 

As far as the manual, it is vague and references that local codes...bla...bla...bla...

The manual damper was installed and the spring is quite tight. I will keep an eye on it, hopefully with it being as far down as it is, wind plus the spring tightness should not be a problem.


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2015)

Even with my old boiler, liquid creosote is something I have never experienced. The only time I had anything like that was the first burn or two in my new boiler, it was dripping out the bottom door. But it wasn't creosote, it was moisture being baked out of the refractory - new refractory can hold a lot of water until it gets fully cured by the first couple of fires. Not sure on that with the Englander though, don't know what they have for refractory/fire brickage. 

The liquidity has me puzzled - sounds so extreme to be beyond the effect of drafting. Let us know how it goes with the changes.


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

The Englander 28-3500 spin draft on the ash pan door.
Now this information is being passed on by me from the man at the fireplace store. I am going to take his advise and experiment from here. I will post my own findings. I just wanted to preface with that. 
Per him..... the spin draft knob is only used when making a bed of coals. This knob is opened and left open until there is a 2-3" bed of coals. This allows the newly created draft of the chimney pipe to suck air in from under the coals thus feeding the coals from the bottom and making a hotter fire. The slide draft on the top is also left full open during this process. According to him this is a gradual building process because as the chimney gets hotter, more draft, more air in the bottom, feeds the coals, hotter fire...etc...etc..etc. 
Once the coal bed is 2-3" thick, is when this can be closed and larger pieces added. But!! according to him, dont fill the box, he told me that when you drop a bunch of wood on the coals, and then close the door, you are smothering the fire until it can catch up....makes sense, didnt think about that. Instead place 2-3 pieces on the coals and let them catch, then 2-3 more, then 2-3 more until the box is filled. 10 minute intervals between feedings. Coals stay hot, flue stays hot and the wood that is added catches to keep the entire system breathing properly. During this time he said that the upper air control can be adjusted as needed, after the last load of wood, this can be banked down and set for the long burn.


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

Now....as far as the ash pan......ash slots...and ash falling outside of the pan problem. 
He told me that in his opinion this is a design flaw that they do not want to fix. He said that there are a lot of people spending a lot of time making metal plates and inserts to cover the sides to keep the ash holes over the pan.... his fix was simple.... fire brick... buy some fire brick and lay it down on the sides. Leave the center open for the ash, and for the air to flow through when making a coal bed. This will also hold more heat in the bottom, act like a gauge for making a nice bed of coals and solves the problem because the air that is blocked by the fire brick when making a bed of coals, is minimal. When the spin draft is closed, there is no air being fed in from the bottom anyway. I followed this advise also and will post my own findings. In the worst case I bought a few extra fire bricks that I can take out and keep on hand for the future if / when I need them.


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

Maple1 - There is fire brick lining the bottom between the ash slots and there is fire brick that lines the sides and back.


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## lexybird (Nov 11, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> Now....as far as the ash pan......ash slots...and ash falling outside of the pan problem.
> He told me that in his opinion this is a design flaw that they do not want to fix. He said that there are a lot of people spending a lot of time making metal plates and inserts to cover the sides to keep the ash holes over the pan.... his fix was simple.... fire brick... buy some fire brick and lay it down on the sides. Leave the center open for the ash, and for the air to flow through when making a coal bed. This will also hold more heat in the bottom, act like a gauge for making a nice bed of coals and solves the problem because the air that is blocked by the fire brick when making a bed of coals, is minimal. When the spin draft is closed, there is no air being fed in from the bottom anyway. I followed this advise also and will post my own findings. In the worst case I bought a few extra fire bricks that I can take out and keep on hand for the future if / when I need them.




I'm sure your buddy means well and  is knowledgable on fireplaces but I owned a 28/3500 for 5 years as my sole heat for my home nd I would not take that advise on these things  . We never froze and I had good success with this unit although I have since upgraded I must say it served us well for the money . First off It's gotta have some air coming up through that spin knob under the fire or it'll coal up once the temps drop and you'll be stuck with low heat and 10 " bed of coals in January . Not to mention you'll get a dirty burn if your just using the air slide above the fire .the grate in the floor is a fine design wood and coals specifically lasts longer when the floor is firebrick lined instead of iron shaker grates like most smoke dragons  . All new EPA stoves are brick floor lined . If the ash drawer is packed full of ashes no desirable air  can come up through hence why the drawer is designed narrow compared the opening size . No need for adding steel plates or other nonsense to take up space , you'll want that space for air flow   ..For overnights pack her up to the baffle and set the spin knob open a quarter to maybe half a turn out and air slide over with a quarter travel open from right you'll get good results  . Granted you should let it catch and burn before you close her down . Liquid creosote oozing is from one thing and that's water in your wood , not seasoned enough . It's the only way and you need good dry seasoned firewood or that is what you can expect . I can help you tune it . I had my damper 18" up from unit and I opened up the 8" hole to 10 to allow more air flow .


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## Nickshog (Nov 11, 2015)

Lexibird...first thank you for you input, but I have to state that he is not my "buddy". He is the man in the fireplace store that I went into to buy pipe. When I explained my dilemma to him and asked if he knew about these stoves he said yes and I asked questions. Just like I did here. Input from a source like you who has one of these and knows its intricacies is exactly what I am looking for. This furnace is like a petulant child, give it what it wants and its behaves,... don't... and it will aggravate you.... lol

I posted his answers to my questions here to get a general consensus on what he had to say and to see if any of you had anything to either add or refute. 
The firebrick solution was to keep the ash from falling to the sides of the narrow ash pan, and like I posted, .... it was his opinion. If it works I'll stick with it. If not, I have spare fire brick....
If I see the coal bed darkening up, I'll take your advise and I will open the spin draft to let more air.....again I need more time in the drivers seat on this beast. I am new to this stove and am taking ALL information received and processing it.

I currently have a fire going and I have to say that so far what he told me has been working. But again I am still figuring this thing out. 
To use a term from the range....."I'm on the paper". 

FYI, the creosote situation seems to have been resolved. Time will tell, but based on the first few fires with the old pipe setup vs. the new pipe setup, things seem to be much better. I am burning the same wood, but have taken the extra step of making sure that I have a nice deep bed of coals. I'm sure that both have helped the situation but to what degree each worked, I cant tell ya. I do see that the fire is breathing better and there is almost no smoke now once I got the beast heated up. 

More updates as events warrant.


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## lexybird (Nov 11, 2015)

It's probably worth mentioning that every install is different and your settings and adjustments may not work as mine have for me .perhaps your local dealers ideas may prove to work better in your case . The good news is the furnace is a great value and  The unit is safe and well made it will do what it's intended to do if you follow good burning practices and give enough air . It's  Probably the best of the smoke dragon style furnaces in my opinion . The Drawbacks are having to adjust it manually ( running up and down stairs ) as it goes through the heating cycles and various outside conditions .its a dirty burner compared to comparable EPA furnaces and requires more wood too . In general I found  It's well behaved once you get accustomed to what it likes and find its sweet ( cruise) spot using air control .loaded up with seasoned hardwood and with minimal air you should get 8 hours of burn time per charge . I would sweep the flue twice per season and don't leave that ash door open while a strong fire is going or you'll warp your baffle


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## Nickshog (Nov 13, 2015)

Agreed, I actually have a reoccurring task list that includes inspect and if needed clean the flue every 2 months during the burn season. Being a firefighter, having a chimney fire in my own local would not bode well for me. 

I have asked many people regarding the barometric damper. Now gain I MUST preface that I have never used one, I know NOTHING about using them, but I have received the same information from different people including my "buddy" .. lol. 

I am bringing what I was told here to get more input from a broader spectrum of people, but I must say, what I am about to share seems plausible. 

My furnace is in the basement, my home is relatively sealed (not drafty). This is important for the test that I had to do. I am going to try not to bounce around, but please follow me. 

The barometric damper was explained to me that it takes air from the surrounding area and automatically adjusts the airflow through the flue by allowing air to enter the damper / flue when needed. Now, we also have a blower on the wood furnace that also takes air from the surrounding area and blows it through the house to disperse the hot air. The air that the wood furnace blower needs is the same air that the barometric damper needs. If you also use the blower on your main furnace to help distribute the air, this uses more of the same air that the damper needs. 

NOW...this is where things got interesting.....and this is based on my situation where the house is sealed. I was told that I should run the blower and begin to close the basement door, if the door gets sucked shut, then I am creating a negative air pressure gradient in the basement. With this situation, I should NOT install a barometric damper in the flue pipe because the blower and the damper will be fighting for the same air. I was told that the damper will actually get sucked shut and require more internal "flue pressure" to work properly because of the negative pressure in the basement caused by the blower. Now I could open a window or something to allow more air in the basement to counteract the negative air pressure, but this would defeat the purpose of having a weather-tight sealed house.

....and yes, as I closed the basement door, pushing it with 1 finger from the back, when I got about 3" from closed, the door got sucked shut. I turned off the blower and did the same thing and the door stayed open until I pushed it all the way to closed. 

I was told that the barometric damper works well in situations where the house is not well sealed, or in an area like a first floor installation where there is usually more available air so that it can work properly. 

Thoughts / commentary.......


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## brenndatomu (Nov 13, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> I was told that I should run the blower and begin to close the basement door, if the door gets sucked shut, then I am creating a negative air pressure gradient in the basement. With this situation, I should NOT install a barometric damper in the flue pipe because the blower and the damper will be fighting for the same air. I was told that the damper will actually get sucked shut and require more internal "flue pressure" to work properly because of the negative pressure in the basement caused by the blower. Now I could open a window or something to allow more air in the basement to counteract the negative air pressure, but this would defeat the purpose of having a weather-tight sealed house.


True, BUT, If you have a negative pressure in the basement (which it sounds like you do when the door is shut) then you also have a dangerous situation where smoke/fumes can be pulled from the stove pipe when the blower kicks on. You need to install some sort of dedicated return air duct or vent.
Now back to the baro, it is true that things won't work well if the blower and the baro are competing for the same air. Many people have air sealed houses and still use a baro. You would need to install a outside air "kit" (makeup air), a simple 4" vent hood and a pipe or flex duct to nearby the furnace that has a J trap or something similar at the bottom to keep cold air from flooding into the basement.
Like I said in my earlier post, I'd try to just use a manual damper. A baro cools the flue gasses and it can be very difficult to keep the flue from creosoting up unless you have a _very_ clean burning stove. A manometer is a highly recommended tool here...


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## Nickshog (Nov 13, 2015)

Thanks... 
As part of the new flue pipe system I installed a manual damper...

The outside vent kit idea sounds simple enough.  

Its supposed to get into the 30's over the weekend at night so I'll have it fired up.. 
I'll  report on how things go...


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## lexybird (Nov 13, 2015)

I think you'll find a baro is not needed .sometimes when I ran mine I'd had to open the closest basement window for a  while at the startup to equalize pressure out and I have ound that worked very well in my case . I had no fancy return air box or outside air . It's made to draw cool air off the basement floor without a return and i found it does  that quite well creating a loop effect . Wait till the weather dips for an extended period of time before you start adding or taking away things . The cold air and wind will alter your draft and effect performance so don't do drastic changes just yet


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## maple1 (Nov 13, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> Agreed, I actually have a reoccurring task list that includes inspect and if needed clean the flue every 2 months during the burn season. Being a firefighter, having a chimney fire in my own local would not bode well for me.
> 
> I have asked many people regarding the barometric damper. Now gain I MUST preface that I have never used one, I know NOTHING about using them, but I have received the same information from different people including my "buddy" .. lol.
> 
> ...



My thought is that is more a sign your ductwork is deficient than anything - sounds like it is very unbalanced, and could fill your house with CO. And you might need some fresh air intake of some sort.


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## Nickshog (Nov 13, 2015)

Well at this point I am going to run it and learn more about how it likes to burn...
The last fire was quite promising..and now I need time in the drivers seat..

I'll  keep ya posted..


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## Nickshog (Nov 15, 2015)

Good morning. 
Had what I will consider great success last night, 30 degrees outside, 78 inside. Looks like the summer shorts are not being put away just yet. 
I followed everybodys suggestions, and I must agree with Lexybird about the spin damper. I fiddled with it and when all the way closed the coal bed did darken and flue temps dropped. 

Now, the furnace is stock, I did not add fire brick to the bottom. I figured that I should know how this thing runs bone stock before I start making adjustments. The manual flue damper was left full open, I still don't know how to adjust this, but small steps.....when I learn it, its there. My Dutch West didn't need one, so I have never used one. Some advice in this would be appreciated. 

I built up the coal bed and fire making 2-3 log additions until it was full to the baffle plate. Once I had nice flue temp and "good looking" flames, I took lexybirds advice and turned the spin damper to a 1/4 turn open and the slide damper to just a little over 1/4 open, fire burned for 7 hours. I also checked the smoke out of the stack, there was no visible smoke. 

This morning the flue temp was just above the low red zone. I raked the coals and reloaded, it rekindled and we are back in action. 

Now, I checked for creosote. While the coal bed was low, I opened the main door and then the ash pan door, don't want to overfire by feeding the coals from below...I pulled the ash pan out and checked the back of the inside of the stove. There was creosote on the back, not much but it was there. This time it was the thick tarry creosote that I would expect to see. Curiously, this area is directly in front of where the blower blows the air in for the main heat output. I also noticed that the most rearward coals were not burning evenly, it seems that the air isn't getting to the back of the stove and up into the coal bed. The fire seems to burn front to back. Is this normal? Any tips for this, or is the the nature of this beast? I raked the unburned coals to the front and evened them out, they caught right up.


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## maple1 (Nov 15, 2015)

If you are using a magnetic pipe thermometer, those can be notoriously inaccurate. It is a lot hotter inside the pipe that what they read. I have a probe & magnetic beside each other - when I am burning, the magnetic reads 100c less than the probe.

So that's like - 400°F on the magnetic = 575°F internal. In my case. Give or take a bit. So back when I was using my old boiler with the same magnetic guage, and it was showing at the top area of the 'safe burn zone', it was actually burning too hot. Each case might be different depending on the thermometer. (I have read others posting worse numbers).

If I was depending on flue pipe temp to determine how I operated, I would get a probe. Just more FYI stuff. Also, a manometer can also be used to dial in your duct work & get that balanced. I would have both especially if I was getting a furnace set up - but some have happily operated for years with neither.


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## Nickshog (Nov 16, 2015)

Probe thermo is going to happen...just dont know where in the pipe would be good... I've  heard 18" above the flue collar. ..or would above the "tee" be better?

Also.... my blower motor says that it needs to be oiled.... ok... where do I oil it... I looked all over it and dont see any oil ports...


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## brenndatomu (Nov 16, 2015)

I think I recall reading that some motors have oil holes, some don't


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## FaithfulWoodsman (Nov 17, 2015)

Some do and some do not. Mine has an oil port, but it is hard to find and even harder to oil. If it has one look on the top right back edge of the black motor housing (closest to the blades). You should see an 1/8" hole/port on the top edge. Inside the housing you should be able to see the small tube that leads to the motor. I use a syringe with a bent needle to get to mine. I've heard that other units my differ on location. Hope that helps.

BTW....... I appreciate all the knowledge offered on this forum. 2nd year burning, much better than the first so far. First post. Long time viewer.


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## Nickshog (Nov 20, 2015)

I added the probe flue thermo.. what a difference between the 2 gauges. 
I was fiddling with the manual flue damper.... trying to dial it in... I was having a bit of trouble keeping the coals, fire temps etc...
I spoke to Englander tech support.... they told me that per the manual "Do not install a flue damper". 
So I read the manual.... yep... page 5 of the manual says "DO NOT install a flue pipe damper or any other restrictive device in the exhaust venting system of this unit."
Thoughts?


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## brenndatomu (Nov 20, 2015)

My thoughts would be that none of the wood furnace manufacturers (to my knowledge) will recommend a manual damper on a furnace because they tend to be in the basement, and "out of sight out of mind". It would be easy to damp things back a lil to far and the draft could slowly die down and get low enough to allow the firebox/stovepipe to smoke into the house after you go upstairs. I still would have no problem with doing it as long as you are very familiar with your furnace and more importantly, your chimney, and how they act throughout a burn cycle. If you have a chimney that acts very reliably without surprises during squirrely weather I'd keep using it..._but with a manometer. _Kind of hard to know how fast you are going without a speedometer, same with chimney draft.
That's my opinion on the subject...


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## lexybird (Nov 21, 2015)

Nickshog said:


> I added the probe flue thermo.. what a difference between the 2 gauges.
> I was fiddling with the manual flue damper.... trying to dial it in... I was having a bit of trouble keeping the coals, fire temps etc...
> I spoke to Englander tech support.... they told me that per the manual "Do not install a flue damper".
> So I read the manual.... yep... page 5 of the manual says "DO NOT install a flue pipe damper or any other restrictive device in the exhaust venting system of this unit."
> Thoughts?


Yes the manual says don't do the damper and in some cases it's not helpful but as was mentioned it is a liability thing . The damper not only changes the draft it helps keep heat into the unit .epa units don't need one because they work in a much different fashion with more internal temperature to promote secondary combustion and  less incoming air so a strong draft is important when they" close down " . You can watch this happen on a modern EPA stove that's just getting going you close the door prematurely and it snuffs  a fire out like you turned off a switch . Esw says to manage your heat output only use the air controls to choke it down ..the fact is though that your only going to reduce air coming into the unit this way and not the heat that's leaving and going out of the the unit . If I had to guess an estimate I'd say adding one gave my old furnace an hour or two of extra burn time . It's worth a try , moniter it and watch for creosote . I would keep the damper fairly close the furnace (2 feet or closer) so as to keep the heat high to prevent potential buildup collecting around the flap


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## FaithfulWoodsman (Nov 21, 2015)

I put one in mine this year after feeling like I was losing too much heat last year. We have a strong draft and I like having the control to close it down a bit. Especially when windy. Haven't played with it enough to measure burn times yet.


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## Nickshog (Nov 23, 2015)

Were in the zone..... Tropics... 30 degrees outside, 78 inside. The Dragon is alive and kicking. Had to open a window...
I was reading other threads about the probe vs. the magnet thermo. Apparently the probes are quite unreliable for reading temps on a single wall pipe. My magnetic reads 500.... the probe is 1100... hard to believe that there is that much of a difference. A few hundred maybe....
There was a series of threads that discussed the problems using the probe on a single wall pipe. I tried to make a heat shield, but it didnt work. I'm going to leave both of them in and take the average. 
Do they make a single wall probe thermo? I looked all over, but could not locate one.


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## maple1 (Nov 23, 2015)

Probes quite unreliable on single wall pipe? How so?


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## Nickshog (Nov 23, 2015)

According to posters on Hearth.com.... I did a search on probe thermos and read a ton of posts....they are unreliable because the heat that emanates off of single wall pipe affects their accuracy.. in fact on the package from my new probe thermo... it states that it is not for use on single wall pipe...


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## brenndatomu (Nov 23, 2015)

I used a probe type on single wall. Gotta make a good sized heat shield. I cut out a 4x4 patch of 6" stove pipe, drilled a hole in it for the probe with the little spacer on it to go through, and then bent the top and bottom of the shield in at about 90* to act as a 1/4 standoff from the stove pipe, if that makes sense. So as far as the probe is concerned, at that point it is in "double wall".

I suppose you could even just cut off a short section of extra stove pipe, slit it down the side so that you could put it over your pipe from the Englander, come up with some sort of "spacers"...hmm, maybe some 1/4" bolts bolted through the "shield" from the inside, the thickness of the head would be the spacer so to speak. Kinda hillbilly I 'spose, prolly work though.

These type of thermos aren't really known for their accuracy anyways...


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## maple1 (Nov 23, 2015)

I guess all probes are not created equal.

Mine is in single wall & works great. No idea the brand, it came with my boiler. Think it's Euro in origin.

We've also got one in our mapling furnace - single wall there too. Also works great. Don't know what brand that is either, can't see it from here. But neither one resembles what I've seen on some stove websites, both seem quite accurate. Big nice white face dial guages.


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## Nickshog (Nov 23, 2015)

A lot of the posters on the other threads suggested a few different types of standoffs and heat shields. Even with that the readings were way off for most. One guy even went to the trouble of using his fluke meter with a thermocouple, and found that the meters were way off. In fact another poster put the end of the probe in boiling water (212 deg F) and the meter read over 400 degrees. I read that the end of the probe needs to be in the center of the flue pipe for the most accurate reading. Given the length of the probe, and the thickness of a double wall pipe, this would make sense. Right now I have it pulled out from the pipe, but it is kinda dangling down. The weather is supposed top warm up by this weekend. I'm going to fab up a standoff to mimic double wall pipe. I'll take some pics of the before readings and the after readings.


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## lexybird (Nov 24, 2015)

I personally think it isn't necessary to have an accurate prove in this furnace. A Rutland exterior magnet will work just fine and will tell you what you should steady know


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## Junebug90 (Nov 29, 2015)

I have two magnet thermometers. One on the flue about 2 foot up and the other above the door.  The door one is about 150 low and the flue one is about 100 low.  I now keep an IR thermometer by the stove and when ever i go down there I check the temps.  It allows me to check different spots and i can see the temp rise or fall where the other thermometers take some warming up or cooling down.  I also found best is small hot fires. For us it saves on wood since we super insulated our house. At 30 ish out one fire at 6am get the 2200sf house to about 78.  Fire dies out around 10am. Then when I get home around 7pm it is 72 to 70 ish and that fire lasts the night.   I havnt had real good luck with burns over 6 hours. Mainly because I always am checking the temps to make sure they are over 300.


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## Nickshog (Dec 20, 2015)

Update. It has been relatively warm in South NJ so we have not been burning with the exception of a few cool nights. This past Friday we lit her and she's been burning since then. I have got to say, I've been getting 6 hour ish burn times. When it comes time for a reload, there is a nice bed of coals and restarting a larger fire has been easy. Creosote creation has been kept at bay mostly to small hot fires and letting her get nice and hot before loading and banking it down for the night. This creosote is mostly in the back / bottom of the stove just inside of where the blower fan air enters the rear of the box. I think that this cooling effect is the major cause here.  
I also checked the flue and the lining has a minor greyish dusty ash buildup, but there is no creosote to speak of.
The lower spin damper control has been open a 1/4 turn and the top slide damper 1/4 from closed. It is 30 degrees outside and 75 in the house. 
Once set there is no or almost no visible smoke. 
Thank you all for your help and advice on getting this beast under control. 
I will post another update once we really get into winter.


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## Junebug90 (Jan 3, 2016)

I have been experimenting with top down fires.  They seem to take a bit longer to set up and heat up but they seem to be bring better. We've been getting 8 ish hours of heat while maintaining 300+ degree flue temps.   The top down method also seems to keep the house a steady 75 vs hitting the mid 80s.


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## Nickshog (Jan 11, 2016)

I absolutely love this furnace. We have had a few very cold nights and the amount of heat that this thing puts out is amazing. Top temp is outside, bottom is inside. 2800 Sq ft house. I found that for us the sweet spot is with the spin draft slightly past 1/4 turn open, and the top slide draft at 1/4. I am getting 7hr burn times. I dont usually use the top down method...mostly because the pyro in me wants to fiddle with the fire and watch it burn....lol, however in the past I have used it with success. During the burn season, I dont usually get a chance to re-light from cold, I am mostly rekindling the last fire. 

bbottom is inside.,


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## FaithfulWoodsman (Jan 11, 2016)

Getting the same results on year two with it. Dry wood is a huge factor, as well as adding the damper and learning the fine tuning points. Did have a problem couple days ago. Had a great fire at night and decided to throw a couple more medium splits in on an already lit load. Since the fire was hot and cruising and the wood was dry I figured it wouldn't be an issue. Woke up the next morning to that black watery stuff leaking out of the ash door. I have had a small amount in the back before and none this year because of the dryer wood. Wood is ash c/s/s a year ago and most I checked were below 20%. I've done this before with no issue. Just surprised by the amount of it, never seen that much since I've owned it and we had wetter wood last year. Did I just happen to grab a couple wetter splits or is this from not allowing the new ones to char? Thoughts?


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## Nickshog (Jan 21, 2016)

Hey Faithful Woodsman... I had the same runny...water like stuff too. I thought  that it was creosote but a few people told me that it was moisture "squeezed out" from the new fire brick that I had. Since after the first 5 or so burns... I've  not had that return. I only get very small amounts of tarry creosote or the remnants of it burned off as crispy flakes.
Did you have any new fire brick in your stove?


The only issues that I have run into lately was dark coaling (basically making charcoal) from not enough air... but I  found that the problem was the ash clogging up the air slots...maple ash mostly.. but that was resolved by cleaning the slots..


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## FaithfulWoodsman (Jan 21, 2016)

Did you have any new fire brick in your stove?

I did put a couple new firebricks in the front to protect the door welds after a crack was fixed this fall, but at least a dozen fires had been in it before the leak. Maybe it just wasn't hot enough? Haven't had any issues since, but also haven't thrown in fresh splits without letting it roar for a bit.
I get some black coals no matter what, but most are smaller than a golf ball or much less. I would say that's normal with this unit, but if you are getting large black coals then you might want to consider more air. I added a damper this year like you did, but most of the time I only shut it 25% so as not to affect the draft. It's great to control the stove when the wind is howling as we have a strong draft. It's been great this year, 70's inside and singles outside, but I am just starting to dip into my less than a year seasoned ash wood. We'll see how we fair, hoping it's dry enough.


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