# apple jack?



## Malak (Jul 30, 2008)

I was thinking about making use of the gobs of apples we have to make applejack, and therefore alcohol.
What's the scoop on using alcohol as a fuel? Is dangerous because it burns too hot, or do people not use it just because it's usually costly? You could put some in a cast iron pan to prevent leakage. 

As you can tell I'm really thinking outside the box on this saving energy stuff! LOL

thanks


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## RedRanger (Jul 31, 2008)

Malak said:
			
		

> I was thinking about making use of the gobs of apples we have to make applejack, and therefore alcohol.
> What's the scoop on using alcohol as a fuel? Is dangerous because it burns too hot, or do people not use it just because it's usually costly? You could put some in a cast iron pan to prevent leakage.
> 
> As you can tell I'm really thinking outside the box on this saving energy stuff! LOL
> ...



Actually I can`t tell?  thought maybe you were drinking it before you posted?   Does BOOM ring a bell?? :smirk:


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## savageactor7 (Jul 31, 2008)

I'd stay away from any alcohol type fuel...you can't see the flame.  Make your apple jack and trade it for wood...you'll be farther ahead,


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## Backroads (Jul 31, 2008)

IF you put that in a stove you're asking for trouble.  The fuel itself isn't the problem, it's the fumes.  Most likely they will ignite in a big bursting flame!


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## karl (Jul 31, 2008)

You will probably burn more wood distilling it then you would get back out of the alcohol in terms of heat.

Get you a recipe for apple pie moonshine and make that for drinking not burning.


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## Malak (Jul 31, 2008)

You don't distill applejack; you freeze it to get the alcohol off.

If you use a smaller amount it does not boom. You guys never
set a puddle of alcohol on fire when you were kids?? It just burns
off. They do it rght in front of people for flambe at restaurants.

The fumes don't smell bad or too "chemically". 

The think it's a BTUs/lb/dollar thing usually.


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## Gator eye (Jul 31, 2008)

MMMMM.........home made apple jack on a frosty night.......

I got the direction for brewing apple jack...I'll see if I can dig them up tonight. If I remember right it's not hard, apple juice, raisons, and sugar put it in a big jug with a bubbler and let it brew for a couple of weeks...That's what I'am doing with my spare apples this year.


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## Martin Strand III (Jul 31, 2008)

The old way to make Apple Jack:

Crush apples at harvest in the Fall to get juice.
Fill capped plastic jugs (old gallon milk containers work) with the juice.
Keep them cool until the snow flies.
Put'em out all winter in a snow bank.
About March is right to claim the Jack.
Sometimes, if frozen, the Jack will be in the middle of the jug.  I drill to it and put a straw in, then drink and hang on...
Other times it's a sludge I filter before quaffing.

Be careful out there.

Aye,
Marty


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## hotcookcpl (Jul 31, 2008)

I make hard apple cider and bre my own beer.  Apple Jack is basically hard apple cider that has been freeze distilled to concentrate the alcohol.

I don't want to spoil anyones fun but...I wanted to point out that in the US it is illegal to distill alcohol (using either the evaporation method or the freeze method) without a license.  Be careful or you'll have the feds on you.  On the other hand, you can ferment almost anything in most states without a license.  I have read a few articles on brewing beer up to around 25% ABV.  Sam Adams has a beer that's aroudn 25% ABV.  Just my $0.02


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## woodconvert (Jul 31, 2008)

Malak said:
			
		

> I was thinking about making use of the gobs of apples we have to make applejack, and therefore alcohol.
> What's the scoop on using alcohol as a fuel? Is dangerous because it burns too hot, or do people not use it just because it's usually costly? You could put some in a cast iron pan to prevent leakage.
> 
> As you can tell I'm really thinking outside the box on this saving energy stuff! LOL
> ...



Alcohol makes for a fine clean burning fuel. It has less energy than gasoline (about 1/3 less energy per volume) but has a high octane rating so you can make up a lot of that difference in power output by running a higher compression ratio. There are inherent problems with alcohol though. It likes to eat some rubbers so you'd have to re-plumb part of your fuel system with alcohol compatible o-rings/seals/gaskets, (aluminum DOES NOT get along with alcohol), etc.. Also, alcohol is very hygroscopic, that is it absorbs moisture. A little bit of moisture won't hurt but you'll never be able to keep all the moisture out where as our fossil fuels, "oil and water don't mix" or the moisture may be in your gasoline or oil but it stays separate.  Thus, storage is a problem. 

Another problem is the yield of alcohol...you don't get much as compared to how much energy you put into it (there are new methods for better yields but you won't get with "backwoods still").

People don't typically use it because it's not readily available as it costs more than gasoline to produce. There are many forms of motor sports that do use it as their primary fuel.

In a nutshell...keep burning gasoline. You won't be saving energy.


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## Malak (Jul 31, 2008)

I've read that it actually is fairly easy to get the license from the ATF if you are just trying to make fuel for your own use. They just don't want you selling it at a profit. 

It could be useful as a firestarter or to warm up the chimney to get the draft going. You just have to use a small amount and can't delay much in igniting it because the fuel will build up quickly.

quote from wikipedia.org  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel

One liter of ethanol contain 21.1 MJ, a liter of methanol 15.8 MJ and a liter of gasoline approximatly 32.6 MJ. In other words, for the same energy content as one liter or one gallon of gasoline, one needs 1.6 liters/gallons of ethanol and 2.1 liters/gallons of methanol. Although actual fuel consumption doesn't increase as much as energy content numbers indicate.


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## woodconvert (Jul 31, 2008)

> Malak said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## woodconvert (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm confused now and don't want to spread misinformation. I just did in fact read that it's illegal to run a still in most states but there is/was legislation in Congress to repeal that ban. That said, there are stores around that their sole purpose is selling everything you need to make all kinds of drink...wine, beer, brandy, etc.. 

Also, i've seen a guy..I think here in Michigan, that legally sells large stills for making fuel for internal combustion engines. I'll try to find the linky.


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## woodconvert (Jul 31, 2008)

Just found this site (one of many) that sells stills. It does say as Malak says above that you just need a permit:

http://www.revenoor.com/faq.ihtml

but it looks to me that you can by it without a permit....if so, I doubt you'd get caught if you had some acreage.


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## Malak (Jul 31, 2008)

As far as my original question... LOL

My calculations are:

1GAL of ethanol = ~75,614 BTUs

~13.23 GALs of ethanol = 1 million BTUs

So, since 1 million pellet BTUs are only $15 then unless you can make alcohol nearly
free like me then alcohol is a more expensive fuel.

I would still like to hear about flame temps being a problem etc.


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## Malak (Jul 31, 2008)

Another webpage says that ethanol is 106,600 BTUs/Gallon

which would be 9.4 gallons/ 1 million BTUs. This is much better

but still not worth buying just to burn.

Also, I read that the BTUs/lb of ethanol are more than 50%

higher than wood implying that the flame temp  will probably

be higher.


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## d.n.f. (Aug 4, 2008)

For what it is worth it is legal in NZ to distill your own.
They sell whole distillery kits online.  I have read that they will send to N. America but send the kits in separate boxes and label them scientific equipment.  lol.

That is my kinda science baby!

My concern would be the yield.  Not sure what it would be but am thinking about doing an experiment this fall to determine...


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## Malak (Aug 4, 2008)

Just make sure you use a temp gauge because the flame
temps might be too high to use a lot of it or for an extended
period of time. Consider splattering also. Start with a small
amount and increase slowly.

How's this for irony? An entire large branch broke off of our
largest tree this weekend! I have juvenile apples from it but
it hurts my numbers for next year.


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## mbcijim (Aug 11, 2008)

Um, I "know" someone who has a still and made some moonshine.  

Ethanol (you know the corn stuff) is 95% +/- moonshine.  So what you are really asking is can you use ethanol as a fuel.  Of course you can.  Although the properties are much more similar to gasoline than diesel.

You make moonshine (95.6% alcohol and 4.4% water if my memory is right) this way:

1.  Have yeasts convert the sugar to alcohol (this is the mash).  
2.  Then you heat this mixture to evaporate the alcohol out of everything else.  Alcohol evaporates 1st around 170 degrees F.  
3.  You collect this steam and make it condesate back to a liquid.  

My friend has gotten stuff into the 90%+ purity level.  

So the answer to your question is dependent on two things.  The sugar the yeasts use.  Do you have a cheap source of it?  Corn, Apples, Oranges, Sugar Cane, Soybeans, Grapes, etc....  Anything with sugar in it can be converted to alcohol.  It's relatively easy.  

Then you need the heat.  Electric, LP, Natural Gas will give you the most efficient heat.  I suppose you could use wood, but that would add a lot of difficulty.  The whole process is depedent on keeping the mash below 212 F, water's boiling point.  You heat it hotter than that, and now you have water entering your conduit stream.  

I think you would have to add some methanol to it at the end, but I'm not sure of the final part.  This would happen last, after everything else is done.


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## Highbeam (Aug 11, 2008)

So if a backyard "guy" can get 90% alcohol then is that good enough to burn or do you need to remove most of that last 10% of water/junk? Do you just grind up the sugar containing material and add yeast or is there another step if you are not using straight sugar? Do you need to heat the mash while the yeast is working or only during the distilling stage? What about sawdust?


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## mbcijim (Aug 11, 2008)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> So if a backyard "guy" can get 90% alcohol then is that good enough to burn or do you need to remove most of that last 10% of water/junk? Do you just grind up the sugar containing material and add yeast or is there another step if you are not using straight sugar? Do you need to heat the mash while the yeast is working or only during the distilling stage? What about sawdust?



Easy one's first.
1.  Sawdust won't work.  That's what is reffered to as cellulose methanol. I don't know of anyway DIY's can make this work.  I don't even think they have it perfected on a industrial level.
2.  My friend makes his mash by buying 50# bags of cooking sugar and adding it to water with yeast.  It needs to be in the 65-75 degree range for a few weeks.  Most basements will work.  So, no, you don't heat the mash while the yeast is working.  It will work outside those temperature ranges, but it works fastest and most efficient in that temperature range.  Remember, the whole goal of moonshine is highest possible alcohol content.  So, although you can make your mash at 90 degrees, you might get 10% alcohol content instead of 15%.  Or it might take you 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks.  Good yeasts and good temperatures can get table sugar mash into the 22-25% alcohol content.   Also, if you are buying sugar in the 50# bags and only get 10% alcohol content, but could have gotten 25% content, you just wasted 30 lbs of sugar.   
3.  Grinding the sugar content.  My friend has only worked with grapes and sugar.  With grapes, it is always with the juice.  Various web pages can help you with advice on your particular medium.  
4.  Can you burn 90% alcohol?  Sorry I only know enough about the drinking kind.  My guess is yes.  I'd look into the final chemical content of corn ethanol.  That should answer your question.  I'm pretty sure they add 5% methanol.  Where you get or buy that I don't know.


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## Telco (Aug 12, 2008)

Methanol can be found by contacting your local racing shop, they will either sell it or know where to get it.  E85 is 85 percent ethanol with 15 percent gasoline.  It's possible to use 90 percent as a fuel, the gasoline is mainly added to keep people from drinking it (a gallon for the car, a gallon  for Homer, a gallon  for the car, a gallon  for Homer, a gallon  for the car, a gallosh  feerrrr Hoslaughhhhhzzzzzz).  The problem with the home brew 180 proof is that 10 percent water that still has to be dried out, otherwise the car will run the same as if you put 2 gallons of water into a 20 gallon tank of gasoline.  Rough running and lots of stalling.  You can either redistill that or apparently use corn meal or corn starch to dry the last of the water out.  Also looks like the corn meal/corn starch can be dried and reused repeatedly too.


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