# Propane tanks



## SlyFerret (Jul 19, 2009)

Hey guys,
I knew it would arrive sooner or later... and it turned out today was the day.

I received a letter from Ohio Gas, my propane dealer, stating that since I haven't had a propane deliver in the past 12 months, they are going to start charging me a $150/year fee for the privilege of decorating my hard with their big white tank.

To avoid the avoid the fee, I need to schedule a delivery of 150 gallons or more by the end of July.

My tank gauge is reading 40% full right now (200 gallons), so the amount of propane I have left is non-trivial, especially considering that I purchased it at almost $4.00 /gallon at the time it was last filled.  I shudder to think I have $800 tied up in gas in that tank still.

I was thinking about placing an order for a delivery and have them come top me off, which should buy me another year to figure out what I'm going to do about my tank.... but... since my furnace is the only propane appliance in the house, I only used 50 gallons of propane last year (gotta love the stove!).   A full tank of propane could last me 8 years at that rate.  Not to mention, I have no idea what the going rate for propane is right now.

I'm going to call on Monday and find out if they would be willing to sell me the tank at a reasonable price.  It wasn't new when it was delivered to me, and that was probably 3 years ago.  I certainly don't want to pay new tank prices for an old used tank.

Have any of you guys gone out and purchased your own tanks?  Or purchased your tank from your propane company?  What sort of cost should I expect to be looking at?  I know I'm not the only one here who has run into this problem!

I'd love to tear out the furnace and put in a geothermal heat pump and go all electric, but the furnace and AC is still working great, and is only about 12 years old.

-SF


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## rdust (Jul 19, 2009)

No idea on tank cost but my pre-buy price for this year is 1.45.  I'm not sure how much I'm going to pre-buy since this is my first year with the stove and not sure how well the floor plan will allow the stove heat to circulate.


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## Dune (Jul 19, 2009)

Tell them that you will not be paying rent for the tank, since you never signed a rental agreement, and if they don't like it, they can get their tank the heck out of there, after they refund you for the unused gas (which you own) $Four dollars a gallon sounds about right. Try to buy the tank (doesn't seem likely) but why? Why would you want a giant ugly 500 gallon tank in your yard if you only use 50 gallons or less? I say eliminate the propane. Burn wood only!


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## uptrapper (Jul 19, 2009)

I had the same problem with the heater in my garage, I used to use a full tank a winter, but when the prices shot up, I turned it on only when I was in there.  My propane company says all I have to do is fill it once per year last couple years its only been 50 or 60 dollars to fill it but it still counts as a fill up.  Last year they didn't remind me to fill it like they have done for the last 7 years and sent me a bill for $100 tank rental.  I called them and told them to come and get it.  They I still had to pay the $100 tank rental, and $100 pick-up fee.  I told them that I wouldn't pay either but if they wanted their tank back they were welcome to pick it up on their dime.  Well after getting a bill for 3 months in a row and not paying it I had $90 in late fees on top of what I already had, I started to see that I was going to loose the war.  Another call to their customer service and talking to a manager we settled on the $100 tank pick-up fee and they would pay me for the unused propane, so they will end up sending me a check for the propane in the tank -$100.  That was last fall and the tank is still in the yard 3/4 full, so I guess they aren't to worried about it.  I bought a 100# cylinder that I am going to use once they come and pick up the tank, not sure how that would work with a furnace but maybe you could just buy a couple of them, think I paid about $90 at TSC.

I had a fuel oil fired boiler and electric heat before the wood stove, so we just use the electric when we are gone for the weekend and the wood stove heats the rest of the time.  I still think back fondly on the day when I hauled that boiler out of the basement.

Mike


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## laynes69 (Jul 19, 2009)

The last order we got from Ohio Gas was in may of 07. We just filled our tank and replaced our old woodfurnace with an efficient one, hoping not to use but very little propane. Well I asked about buying our tank, and they said they would sell it for 850.00. I would check into it. I found out that Ohio gas is owned by an energy company. That was the reason for the high price around here. They we at 1.99 a gallon, while everyone else was at 1.59. We figured if we buy our tank we will get our money back in less than 8 years by not paying the non-usage fee. I managed to talk them down .10 a gallon.


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## SlyFerret (Jul 19, 2009)

Dunebilly said:
			
		

> Tell them that you will not be paying rent for the tank, since you never signed a rental agreement, and if they don't like it, they can get their tank the heck out of there, after they refund you for the unused gas (which you own) $Four dollars a gallon sounds about right. Try to buy the tank (doesn't seem likely) but why? Why would you want a giant ugly 500 gallon tank in your yard if you only use 50 gallons or less? I say eliminate the propane. Burn wood only!



I'll have to find the paperwork, if there is any, from when I signed up for propane service.  At the time, it was Moulton Gas, but they were since bought out by Ohio Gas.

I'd like to eliminate propane completely, but I want to still have a backup.  If we are gone for a few days, it's nice to have the propane.  If I get the flu for a day or two (like I did last year).. It's nice to have the furnace to fall back on.

It could be interesting to see how this turns out.

I want to see if they'll sell me the tank, so I don't have to mess around with getting another one.  If they won't, and I buy another tank, I still have to move gas that I have left over into the new tank.

The more I think about it... I'm going to try for this...

Order a delivery to top off the tank now, and see if we can negotiate a FAIR price with a few monthly installments so that by this time next year... I own the tank.

-SF


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## begreen (Jul 19, 2009)

We ended up buying a smaller 100 lb tank instead of paying the man for the lease. At our current rate of consumption, a tankful should last a few years.


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## SlyFerret (Jul 19, 2009)

How many gallons (approximately) does a 100# tank hold?

I know I saw a conversion formula somewhere for that...

-SF


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## begreen (Jul 19, 2009)

A 100# tank holds about 24 gallons. It's been awhile. I should check the purchase bill because I think we have a bigger tank than that. It's a roughly 30" diam x 60" high cylinder. I vaguely remember getting about 70 gallons of propane so maybe it's a 250# tank?


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## DiscoInferno (Jul 19, 2009)

I had been renting a 500 gal tank at $50/year for the MI house, it ran the hot water, stove, and furnace.  We could go several years between 200 gal deliveries since we aren't here much in the winter.  But the company was terrible, kept adding fees and billing me more than the quoted price, so 2 weeks ago I bought a new 325 gal tank.  I could have gone smaller but someday I might want to keep the house heated when I'm not around for a while.  With regulators and tax it came to $1100 I think.  Now I can buy from whoever is cheapest, which was never my old company.  Propane here just dropped to $1.44 at the place I bought my tank.  (Was $0.20 higher a week before, and around $2.50 last winter.)  With the new Fireview installed this fill might last 10 years.

The old company's tank is out by the road waiting for pickup, in theory they will pay market value minus a $0.50/gal "pumping fee" for the contents but I made sure to run it nearly dry just in case.  Good luck to them collecting any tank removal fee!


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## SlyFerret (Jul 19, 2009)

Has anyone ever had a new propane supplier transfer your gas from the old tank to the new one?  I'm not sure if they're allowed/willing to do that.

That's another option... take bids on who will sell me a tank at the best price, transfer the 200 gallons I have, plus top if off with another 200 gallons.

-SF


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## DiscoInferno (Jul 19, 2009)

I don't think you'll find anyone willing to do that if the old tank doesn't belong to you.  My new supplier was quite clear that they could/would not.  I'm not sure of the actual legal reasoning; perhaps they're worried you haven't paid for that propane.

Not only that, but the company I bought the tank from told me to keep the receipt handy in case I want to get a fill from someone else.  Apparently they want proof that you own a tank before they will fill it.


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## begreen (Jul 19, 2009)

Yes, they transfered the propane from the old to the new for our tank. Seems to depend on the company and maybe locale?


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## SlyFerret (Jul 21, 2009)

Well, I have it all worked out.  The old propane company is going to come get their 500 gallon tank and refund me for the ~200 gallons that is left in it at the rate I paid for it over a yer ago ($3.29/gal).

Then, I'm going to sign up for a 120 gallon tank with a different company with better rates.

In the end, by freeing up the cash I have tied up in propane from over a year ago, I'm going to come out ~$400 ahead.

The $400 will come in handy for building my woodshed

-SF


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## Highbeam (Jul 21, 2009)

Great negotiating skills SF. That's an ideal solution for you and the propane company is taking it in the shorts by buying back that propane at that crazy price. I would have been happy if they bought if back at today's price since you can replace the propane inyour new tank for today's price.


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 21, 2009)

Indeed, very well done. I had to empty my 500 gallon tank, drag it to the road with the tractor and threaten them that if it was there in 30 days I would consider it abandoned.  After that experience, I went to 4 grill tanks for the little propane I still use.  Having to fill them is good incentive to get the boiler/dhw project done.


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## SteveKG (Jul 21, 2009)

Sounds as if you have it worked out to your satisfaction. I bought a used 500 gal. tank [takes about 425 gal. of propane, or 80% fill] from a private individual...pure luck, mentioned my desire to someone who happened to know someone. Cost me $210. 

If you are gonna be staying there where you are, owing one makes sense [to me]. I loathe overhead such as rent on something like that, no matter how inexpensive. My filled 500 gal. tank lasts us about 8 yr., and it can sit there all it wants and cost me nothing. 

The tank I bought was pretty ugly, rust and bad paint. I painted it over with that "rust converter" and then with Rustoleum paint. It's been five yr. since painting and it looks good. The point being, you can sometimes find an ugly tank that is in otherwise good shape for less money and put $40 into improving it. 

To move the tank I bought, I got a couple buddies to help and we borrowed a steel-pipe a-frame an auto mechanic uses to pull big engines. We set it up, backed the pickup to it, raised the tank with a chain hoist and slid it into the truck. Reversed that at my cabin. 

A friend worked as a delivery driver for a propane dealer and he told me they NEVER sold their tanks, they want the income. But there are some around owned by individuals...I got mine from somene who bought a house with the tank there and didn't want it, wanted someone to haul it off.


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## laynes69 (Jul 22, 2009)

We considered changing companies, but no one would lease with us without using 600 gallons a year. What I would be afraid of is them overcharging because of the low usage. Around here with the 500 gallon tanks, they have a 200 gallon minimum for delivery. If I told them I needed 75 gallons, I'd be afraid of the price. I have a love/hate relationship with propane. That's why I burn wood to minimize the usage, but without owning the tank I pay them in the end. Hopefully come tax time I buy our tank and no longer have to worry about the monopoly.


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## SlyFerret (Jul 22, 2009)

I'll probably stay on the lookout for a tank.  I don't mind paying $50/year (less than $5/month) to have the tank here.  The smaller tank will also reduce the minimum amount that they require to keep them happy.  At least I'll be able to take my time to find a good deal on a tank.

-SF


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 22, 2009)

My dealer wouldn't do anything other than fill the tank.  With tanks you can put in your truck, you always get the best price in town and you have a lot less carrying cost.  Once I get the dhw off propane, it wont be a big deal at all to pick it up and no one will ever hold me hostage again.


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## John_M (Jul 22, 2009)

When I built my home in 2004 I purchased a 1,000 gal propane tank and had it buried (special procedures and UL certification needed to bury tanks). I can purchase propane from any dealer I choose and I enjoy that freedom of choice. My local dealer knows this and he always gives me the best price of all the dealers in my area. 

Owning my tank works best for me. Gives me more options. I would not enjoy being shackled to a dealer via a rental/maintenancel ageement. 

John_M


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 22, 2009)

John_M said:
			
		

> When I built my home in 2004 I purchased a 1,000 gal propane tank and had it buried (special procedures and UL certification needed to bury tanks). I can purchase propane from any dealer I choose and I enjoy that freedom of choice. My local dealer knows this and he always gives me the best price of all the dealers in my area.
> 
> Owning my tank works best for me. Gives me more options. I would not enjoy being shackled to a dealer via a rental/maintenancel ageement.
> 
> John_M



Who did you buy the tank from?  Did they install it as well?  Would you use them again?  Was this a separate permit/inspections from your bulding permit?


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## John_M (Jul 22, 2009)

Solar, 
I purchased the tank from Snyder Propane in Fort Plain, NY. Cost was about $2,400 delivered to my front yard. My excavator buried the tank following the special dealer instructions. Would I use them again? Yes. Here in Otsego County there is no county inspection/permit required but a Certificated dealer has to inspect the installation to be certain it was properly buried. 

Additional details: The direct burial tank must be UL certified for direct burial. It has a special coating, epoxy, I think, and is super durable for burial. It also has a 25# sacrificial anode (zinc?) attached to each end of the tank via a heavy gauge copper wire which is soldered to the tank. These are buried with the tank to prevent electrolysis and corrosion.  The hole must be dug 12" deeper, wider and longer than the tank's dimensions. When the hole is dug, one foot of sand is leveled in the bottom of the hole and the tank is set on this level bed. A minimum of 6" of sand must also surround all other surfaces of the tank so no soil or rocks can come into contact with the tank. A propane certified person must supervise the installation of the tank. Once approved, the hole is covered with dirt except in the area where the valves and connectors are located. A protective silo is installed (set in place) to protect these connections, gauges, regulator, etc. Dirt is than used to finish-off the installation. The silo is always above ground and has a hinged access cover. Each fall I place a 48" piece rebar in the ground near the tank silo so it can be found when buried under 3' of snow. Orange and yellow surveyor's ribbons adorn the top of the rebar. 

A propane tank should not buried in ground which is susceptebil to high water conditions. If the tank is empty a high water table can "float" the tank right out of the ground. 

Each of these specifications might not be exactly as stated, but they do give a general description of what is involved with propane tank burial. 

Best wishes, 

John_M


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks John, I've been thinking that burying a tank before I get rid of the excavator is a good idea.  I doubt we are going to get natural gas any time soon and filling the grill tanks will get old eventually.


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