# forrester model 280



## Chopper

I've recently obtained a forester model 280 anybody ever heard of it? Not crazy about the looks of it but the price was right. Would I be wasting my time installing this model intill I can get the one I want? I really like the soap stone ones but don't like the prices.


----------



## elkimmeg

I believe you picked up one of those 70's stoves.  Probably un- listed and questionable being able to obtain a permit to install it.
I think your question and being a bit unsure says it all. A better question would be,,how safe would this stove be in opperation?
Personally one would be better off finding a more modern stove. We here can educate you as to what to look for in finding one


----------



## webbie

Chopper said:
			
		

> I've recently obtained a forester model 280 anybody ever heard of it? Not crazy about the looks of it but the price was right. Would I be wasting my time installing this model intill I can get the one I want? I really like the soap stone ones but don't like the prices.



I think this was made by the US Stove company. They are still in business.

See: http://www.usstove.com/Downloads/Literature/1821.pdf

These were tested and listed stoves (UL), but probably not epa. The current lit shows them EPA exempt, which means a high air to fuel ratio, although one mode is EPA approved. 

It is a steel stove, patterned after the original "air tights".

So, yes, I have heard of them and yours should be OK at least in terms of safety. It will need some care in order to burn clean so make certain you educate yourself in proper burning techniques.


----------



## Corie

Craig, sometimes your stove knowledge amazes even me!


----------



## webbie

Corie said:
			
		

> Craig, sometimes your stove knowledge amazes even me!



Actually, didn't take too much for this one....I right away guessed that it was US Stove or the old Atlanta stove, and instead of mentioning both, I googled Forrester Wood Stove and saw it was US.

So actually, it is more that I know a little and google fills in the rest!

I was thinking of the woodsman and the huntsman, these were Atlanto stoves! One of them was cast and one was steel.

Well, most of us are dying off. Luckily I started young, so would probably win any stove trivia game (but lose all sport, movies and tv ones).


----------



## Shane

Boy if you started young then what did I do?  I've been at it since I was 18. (currently only 7 years but it's a start)


----------



## begreen

Didn't cha know? Craig helped Ben develop the Franklin stove.


----------



## Shane

I doubt that if Craig had helped develop it it would have been alot more efficient.


----------



## Corie

> Well, most of us are dying off. Luckily I started young, so would probably win any stove trivia game



Craig, this is a torch I'd be happy to take.  I've been studying stove manuals, manufacturer literature and other sources since I was 8.  I used to make my mother take me to all the area stove dealers and amaze them with how much I knew about their stoves.  I have fireside advisors from vermont castings from WAY WAY back in my collection.  So don't worry, it's not an entirely dying breed.


----------



## HarryBack

geeez...and I thought I was bad collecting National Geographics! My wife hates them, they take up an entire bookcase in the den! Benn collecting since I was 10...all the way back to 1926.


----------



## BrotherBart

I read an issue of Mother Earth News once. Does that count?


----------



## Chopper

After doing some reseach... my freind finding the manual.... it is a plate steel stove claims to be "air tight". It's from the seventies and in very good shape.Not even a cracked fire brick.The clearances are huge 36 inches all the way around but this can be dealt with.My thoughts are this stove should be bannished to the garage and wait to get a "real" stove.After this winter I just want some relief .Any input would be appreciated


----------



## Corie

> National Geographics



I have from about 1952 to current.  Yes, I know that I was born in 1985.  My grandpa passed them along to me! haha


----------



## elkimmeg

Chopper said:
			
		

> After doing some reseach... my freind finding the manual.... it is a plate steel stove claims to be "air tight". It's from the seventies and in very good shape.Not even a cracked fire brick.The clearances are huge 36 inches all the way around but this can be dealt with.My thoughts are this stove should be bannished to the garage and wait to get a "real" stove.After this winter I just want some relief .Any input would be appreciated



First of all clearance reduction enclosures can be built to reduce the clearances to 18". Since you have the instructions booklet please provide more specifics concerning the stove in question.  Is  the stove Ul approved? It is possible this stove is a decent usable stove.

 Naturally it will not burn as clean and EPA stoves and it will consume more wood. But with dry wood and learning how to control it much of the polution issues could be reduces


----------



## webbie

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> First of all clearance reduction enclosures can be built to reduce the clearances to 18". Since you have the instructions booklet please provide more specifics concerning the stove in question.  Is  the stove Ul approved? It is possible this stove is a decent usable stove.
> 
> Naturally it will not burn as clean and EPA stoves and it will consume more wood. But with dry wood and learning how to control it much of the polution issues could be reduces



Hey Elk,

I haven't looked at clearance charts for while, but can't they be reduced 66% (2/3) with as simple as sheet metal spaced 1 inch from wall? That was the original generic NFPA.....66% from original wall. Of course, pipe clearance has to figure in, but pipe heat shields are usually for 50%, so piple can be as little as 9".

Here is the older NFPA table we have on Hearth.com
https://www.hearth.com/content/images/uploads/nfpachart1.jpg

I would have no qualms using a stove like that when I comes to basic safety - rather the biggest concerns are the dirty burning and possibly chimney fires, etc. - If you are an educated burner you can avoid this by using the stove with lots of air and hot fires. Such a stove should not be smoldered often.


----------



## kd460

This is good stuff as I have a "buddy" in a similiar situation. Older stove, in good shape, experienced at burning. Burned often at his old house, but since moving, his new house has no "wood burning capabilities" and he really misses it. He came accross a wood burning stove (heck, I think it might even be the same model!), and wants to get it up and running. 

He's no idiot (except after a few beers!), so following directions/tips/information from the experienced folks here you would be a big help. I'm gonna follow this thread closely and pass on the info to him.

Hey Chopper, it sure would be interesting to see if your manual shows how to reduce the clearances. And does any one know if there is a way to get the clearances even closer than 18"? Say ceramic tile on the wall with the tile installed on durock or wonderboard with a gap from the wall (maybe by using steel studs?) I guess the manual for the stove will be the bible.  

Gonna do search for him right now. Chopper, if I find anything good I'll post it here. Good Luck, KD


----------



## Chopper

It would be nice if the manual would give me all the answers but it don't.Idid notice that it says do not use in mobile home what does this mean? The manual says copywrite 1978.If it was ul approved would it state this in the manual or on the stove?


----------



## Corie

Wouldn't matter, UL listings generally expire within 20 years.


Not being able to be installed in a mobile home means it can't be installed in a mobile home.  I could be wrong, but the things necessary for mobile home installation usually must include an outside combustion air connection as well as a means of being anchored to the floor, if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## seaken

Corie said:
			
		

> Wouldn't matter, UL listings generally expire within 20 years.
> 
> 
> Not being able to be installed in a mobile home means it can't be installed in a mobile home.  I could be wrong, but the things necessary for mobile home installation usually must include an outside combustion air connection as well as a means of being anchored to the floor, if I'm not mistaken.



Yep, and also a specialized chimney and connector pipe. A stove has to be specifically tested for mobile home. This stove in question was not tested for that purpose. 

In some localities it is still acceptable to install "unlisted" stoves when complying with the NFPA 211 standards for unlisted stoves. I can't say for sure, but it sounds like US stove never went through the UL listing process with that stove. The unlisted clearance is 36". The hearth also has to be properly prepared. (And yes, these clearances can be reduced as already mentioned).

I suggest you learn to burn hot fires and keep your chimney clean. This stove will be a lot more work than a modern clean-burning stove but it could be done safely if you pay attention to the counsel here. The chimney system will be the weakest link (assuming you adhere to the clearance requirements) so make sure you have a good and properly installed chimney system - preferrably a Class A or a Type HT insulated stainless liner. Good wood is a must.Well-seasoned and dry. Bring it indoors a few days before putting it in the stove. Some kind of staging of your wood supply would be in order.

I would agree with Elk and consider waiting for a good deal on a new-technology stove. But it's up to you. Whatever you decide, remember that creosote fires are dangerous to your health. Be careful.

Sean


----------



## elkimmeg

Craig again your are right 66% reduction  can be achieved witha properly built enclosure and double wall connector pipe of an approved pipe heat shield.  at no point the reduction can be less than one foot unless the stove is listed as such with a heat shield .
 Part of my threat was to error on safety side.  It is hard to apply modern code to ancient stoves.  The codes at the time of this stove only allowed 50% reduction.  A case could be made that more modern stoves can be reduced, but applying these codes to older stoves not tested, I used the code requirements pertaining to the age of the stove 1970's

I used the 1982 code book  concerning this stove  In Canada they require 48" from combustiables as their base for older stoves.
 I think the question here is can modern code be applied to stoves this age? or should one apply the older code requirements to relfect the time era? Remember by today's code these stoves can not be installed because they are un listed so is using modern code one can not selectively choose only part of code to fit the situation. but  using modern code all factors must be considered?


----------



## kd460

I'm not trying to contradictory (sp?), but I find it interesting "that all UL listings expire after 20 years". That kind of stinks. Does that mean the refrigerator that I have in my garage is garbage? What about the TV in my basement that works fine? If something where to happen with that fridge or TV and cause a fire, will I be screwed because the UL listing expired?

Yes I know, a wood burning stove is a different product, and safety is more of an issue. I would just hate to see a useable stove go to waste. But, on that same scenario, if something where to go wrong with that stove, the insurance company may raise an eyebrow about the fact that an obsolete stove was installed, and I guess there is no way for it to pass inspection just because of it's age. If installed with no inspection, then that is another problem. Especially if something where to happen and it's time to file claim. Hmmm. 

Looks like if anything, that puppy needs to go in the garage. Need to pass this info on to my buddy. Yes, his stove is the very same model. He will be disappointed. 

Chopper, are you sure there an no clearances listed in the manual? If you do choose to install it, are you capable of cleaning the chimney on a regular basis? Are you an experienced wood burner? Just curious. KD


----------



## Chopper

The clearances posted are 36 inches allthe way around .I figure I could cut the down to at least 20 inches with a heat sheild. Can any one tell me what year stove companies started making "modern" stoves are they that much better.....cleaner.....safer? I'm capable of cleaning my chimney.


----------



## elkimmeg

For most it started in 1988 in anticipation of the 1990 EPA wood stove regs. The regs required all stoves ( there are exceptions)
 sold in USA to be tested and certified to be at least 63% effecient and emit no more than 8.5 grams of particulates per hour cat stoves 5.5 So if in the used stove market  late 1980's that have approval from Oregon to 1990 WPA label forward For instance I have a VC Intrepid II Approved  for use in the state of Oregon it was manufactured in 1987 These specs are the same as the EPA adopted 3 years later. With carefull searching one can come up with a decent priced EPA approved stove new or used


----------



## Chopper

OK you guy have provided me with alot of great info.Let say the cheapest SOB on the face of the earth was going to buy a new stove? I think I've narrowed it down to either a vc or a jotul. Don't really know if I should get a "cat" or not. House is about 1300 sq ft.I live in the middle of Michigan so it's plenty cold.Any feedback would be great


----------



## Shane

If you want cheap while maintaining quality look at Dutchwest.  Still the VC technology in the non-cat and you can get one for around 1000.00.  They don't top load but do have a side load door.  The non cat version has been around in one incarnation or another for approx. 30 years.  They introduced the non cat about 2 years ago.  Both are good solid stoves and in my opinion one of the best buys on the market today.  Another thing I like about them is the convection chambers are built in, not provided by a heat shield.


----------



## webbie

Chopper said:
			
		

> OK you guy have provided me with alot of great info.Let say the cheapest SOB on the face of the earth was going to buy a new stove? I think I've narrowed it down to either a vc or a jotul. Don't really know if I should get a "cat" or not. House is about 1300 sq ft.I live in the middle of Michigan so it's plenty cold.Any feedback would be great



Well, the cheapest SOB would not buy a vc or jotul. Probably a Century or Englander....
Or, talk to a Travis dealer about the new $995 stove with full glass door and full size logs. You can probably get a century or englander for $700 or less.


----------



## webbie

Corie said:
			
		

> Wouldn't matter, UL listings generally expire within 20 years.


What does not mean? So the sheetrock, wiring and everything else in a house is no longer listed?


----------



## elkimmeg

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Corie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't matter, UL listings generally expire within 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> What does not mean? So the sheetrock, wiring and everything else in a house is no longer listed?
Click to expand...


I never heard of the listing expiring, as long as the label is on the appliance I'm going to accept it.
 Does UL come to you home and remove it listing  after it expires?


----------



## Corie

> Is my Older Model Stove listed?
> 
> If your stove is older than 20 years, it is a safe bet that it is either not listed or that *the listing has expired.*



Directly from this website craig? The only reason i said it is because you said it first.


----------



## BrotherBart

Corie said:
			
		

> Is my Older Model Stove listed?
> 
> If your stove is older than 20 years, it is a safe bet that it is either not listed or that *the listing has expired.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Directly from this website craig? The only reason i said it is because you said it first.
Click to expand...


OK! Who is going to clean all of this coffee off of my monitor and keyboard?


----------



## kd460

Here is some really low prices, not sure of quality, but definetly stay away from a cat stove. It is a "consumable" and will need to be replaced every few years.


http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=wood stove&Nty=1&D=wood stove&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial

For some reason the full link did not work, so type "wood stove" under the search feature when the link goes thru

Personally, if you feel confident with your skills and know how, I would install the one you have, paying attention to all safety rules to the letter. 

OK, I just put my asbestos suit is on for making that statement, ready for the flames! Bring it on. KD


----------



## elkimmeg

my flame thrower is accelerated with map I doubt your suit can stand the heat. Please do not recomend the Zolzang
 death fire boxes from nothern tool. The reason the opriginal poster can not find the ul listing is, Ul had not started listing
 stoves till 1979. Are you sugesting he install  poluting beast unlisted stove? contrarty to all code and un insurable?


----------



## kd460

Yes, I'll admit I'm trying to stir the pot a little. The guy has a stove, it appears to be in good working order. It did not burn the house down that it came from originally.  If he knows how to burns clean, then I don't see it burning any dirtier than a romantic fire from a standard fireplace in many homes in North America.

The guy is trying to save some money on his heat bill. I'm sure he does not want to burn his house down, and the decision is ultimately his. I just don't see how this thing is gonna explode, implode, meltdown, etc. if installed properly. 

If this question was raised back when this stove was brand new (1978 I think was mentioned), what would the response be to his question be? Would it be considered a "bad stove" in 1978?

If the answer is "yes", then I stand corrected and withdraw my statement. You and many others have allot more knowledge about this than I will ever have. KD


----------



## elkimmeg

If you have noticed people selling stoves on Ebay re-paint then and they look new. This paint covers up th whitish evidence of overfiring. We are talking about a 30 year old stove, that may not be gasketed,  very hard to control overfiring probably not baffeled,, so no chance for secondary cleaner burns. And we do not know his economic situation.   We do not know his experience as a wood burner, able to reconise the shot commings of the ancient stove and correct burning practices.

 And I would be very carefull about vouching safety when so little is known as mentioned above. Yes I could determine whether this stove is safe for use. I also could quickly lean how it opperate safely.   One not familliar, My suggestion is to get a known working newer stove modern burning.  Remember this stove is even unlisted, more doubt and questionability about it's quality


----------



## Chopper

This stove is non gasket..the manual does not even show a gasket. The other reason I was looking at newer stoves was so I can see the fire.I was going to install this stove then replace it with the one I want. I'am a cheap sob but I'm thinking maybe Ishould spend the money on a good "quality" stove and chimney. Should I stay away from looking at used stoves


----------



## seaken

There is no pat answer. Some areas allow the installation of unlisted stoves, some don't. Some areas allow burning anytime, some don't. Some areas "grandfather" old installations that probably should be replaced. It's up to the local authority.

Now, for my opinion. I think it is fine to install and burn an unlisted stove if you know what you are doing. The problem is, how do we tell that the person installing and using the unlisted stove knows what he/she is doing? The only way to assure relative safety is to have the installation inspected by an expert and then maintained by an expert. At least until the user can himself/herself become an expert with that system. In most cases, local ordinances are restricting the installation and operation of unlisted stoves. This makes sense from a safety standpoint. Unfortunately, most local authorities lack the knowledge needed to make balanced decisions about what is and what isn't "safe" with respect to woodstoves. It is admitedly complicated and a relatively small concern in amongst all the other ordinaces and regulations surrounding community activities. I wish more attention was given to the chimneys being built. At least as much as is being given to unlisted stoves, which isn't much in some regions. The chimney is often not safe and especially risky with a wood stove, even more risky with an unlisted stove. In our area it is not uncommon to "approve" or "disapprove" of a particular model of stove yet completely ignore the chimney system to which the stove is being connected. I'll come in after the install has been "approved" and tell the cutomer it is unsafe and I end up being suspected of unethical sell tactics because the "authority" said it was okay.

In my opinion the safety of an instllation is relative and depends largely on the chimney system, clearances, floor and wall protection and the knowledge of the user. The knowledge of the user cannot be easily regulated. Even if you "test" the user they can easily meet the standards on a test and then do as they see fit in their own home. Not to mention that this would cause a general public outcry with accusations of restriction of freedom. Even the regulation of chimneys, clearances, and stoves is perceived by many as an invasion of personal freedom. My opinion is that personal freedom should not be restricted as long as it does not harm the community at large. The community has to decide what risk is involved in allowing the install and burning of an unlisted stove. Some communities beleive any wood stove burning is harmful to the community. Most communities take some middle ground.

We live in an area that is sparsely populated and a haven for independent personalities. Most towns do not restrict the installation of a wood stove and some towns do not even have a formal ordinance being enforced by a qualified inspector. NYS law reuires permits but there is no law prohibiting the install of an unlisted stove. Most towns will accept the NFPA 211 code for the installation of unlisted stoves. However, the trend is to restrict the install of unlisted stoves and we are seeing more and more resistance to continuing to use older unlisted and non-EPA stoves. In time we will have to upgrade to new technology. We will also have to find a way to help people who are in financial need who cannot simply throw away a perfectly good (although "unlisted") stove because the local law says so. 

The EPA and the industry association (HPBA) have been doing some work in this area but it remains to be seen how it will be received nationwide and whether or not there will be a viable program that will assist those in need to upgrade to clean-burning stoves. In the meantime, we, as one of the local experts, continue to encourage those who can afford it to upgrade. And we work to find ways to help those who cannot afford it. We have worked with some local assistance programs to install new chimney systems even if the homeowner cannot afford to upgrade the stove. We update the clearances to NFPA 211 and install UL listed chimney systems. The homeowner gets approval from the assistance program and the program pays our bill. The homeowner gets a safer wood stove install and a lesson in chimney cleaning and improved burning techniques. But this only works if the local authority allows the continued use of the unlisted "old technology" stove. They also have to accept the safety standards that apply to re-lining existing chimneys. It also has to stay within the budget of the local grant program.

In short, as long as there is no law against it an unlisted stove could be a good deal for some people. A free stove that still operates within the manufacturers specifications can be operated relatively safely if in the hands of the right person. Sometimes it is the only choice when finances will not allow the purchase of a new stove. But the risk is higher. It is up to every individual to be informed and make the best decision for their own situation. If it can be afforded, I would recommend purchasing a "new technology" stove and a UL listed chimney system and have it installed by an expert. But sometimes that's not the decision made by the stove user. It is their decision, as long as local ordinances do not prohibit it.

Sean


----------



## elkimmeg

Seaken said it best.   yes there are real concerns.  especially the chimney clearances and user involvment. 
To add to the concerns, not only are they not  clean burning, they do   have a propensity of cresote build up.
 A very dangerous situation that has to be monitored. Cleaner burning EPA approved stoves oppertate correctly mininumizes 
this build up. Poorly routed exposed chimney system also is seseptiable of cresote accumulations.

 burning properly seasond wood is also part of the equasion. Code requires ,this is national code, not local 
 all appliances to be permitted must be listed and labled. 
I admit that a stove manufactured using the same process in 1978 and its identical model in 1980 are the same but 1980 model is labeled and ul listed

Many states take it one step further requireing all permitted stoves to be 

EPA approved. There is a reason the government had to set a standard and a listing Safety either the stove, chimney, or for user.

For me, I require it to be labled and listed before I issue a permit. It is easier than telling some one he has to remove a piece of junk he bought at a yard sale ,
that he has paid to have installed. I have found it is easier to advoid poor choices in the first place. as I can not see the condition of the stove from my office


----------



## Chopper

Sorry it took so long to get back.I've been reading up on this delemna. This is what I've come up with....The forrester is being bannished to the garage...yes I could of safley installed it but it's not the best looking stove.. I was going to change it out when I could afford the one I want.Another issue was the shear size of this thing 36 inches long.Even reducing my clearances this thing would take over my living room.Besides the fact its ugly there is the burn issue.After all its better to be safe than sorry.This will delay me heating with wood.I have promised myself not to be a cheap sob when doing this.My house is 1300 sq ft If I bought a stove rated for 1600 would this be too big? going under the assumtion that stove ratings from the manufacturer are a bit "padded". More to come on which stove to puchase.


----------



## Shane

Look at the Dutchwest line awesome quality with a nice price.  You could probably get a Med non-cat or large-cat for around 1200.00.  And that's a stove that I've seen last 20+ years with little to no major maintenance.  That's 60 per year for that stove not including chmney sweep cost or gasket replacements.  Not bad.  I'm willing to bet you could save more than 60 per year heating with wood and that's only going to get better as energy get's more expensive.


----------

