# Tightening emissions regs, pushing me towards a gas stove



## Highbeam (Feb 22, 2012)

So the clean air retards in my area seem to think that they need to further restrict solid fuel burning in an effort to clean the air in the urban centers. I live way outside of the urban centers but in the same county so my 100% wood heating lifestyle is at risk. I am forced to consider options. I have no natural gas available and no central ducted heat source.

My current woodstove is vented vertically from the stove to a ceiling box, then simpson class A pipe 8 feet to the cap. Total chimney height is about 14 feet. If I were to remove the hearthstone stove what would be needed to install a propane stove in its place? I have a 3" outside air connection from below. I would need to install a gas line but what about the chimney? Is it too tall?


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## DAKSY (Feb 22, 2012)

14 Feet shouldn't be an issue, as long as there is a restrictor plate
to slow the air movement in the firebox. You will need DV from the stove 
to the Class A, then a properly-sized Class A adapter at your support box, 
4" flexible aluminum from there to the top, where it's connected to the other 
half of the adapter kit. That's mounted on top of the Class A & attached to 
the specified DV cap...


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## nate379 (Feb 23, 2012)

What is the penalty for burning wood?


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## ironpony (Feb 23, 2012)

possibly switch to pellets.....
direct vent out wall
noone would know its there


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## Highbeam (Feb 23, 2012)

NATE379 said:
			
		

> What is the penalty for burning wood?



1000$ fine. First offense.


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## Weird tolkienish figure (Feb 23, 2012)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> NATE379 said:
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Well, politicians gotta eat too!


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## Highbeam (Feb 23, 2012)

ironpony said:
			
		

> possibly switch to pellets.....
> direct vent out wall
> noone would know its there



Pellet stoves are also illegal during these bans and the enforcement officers are allegedly equipped with a form of infared goggles that can distinguish wood smoke exhaust from petroleum exhaust. The proposed regs, getting no political pushback, also include a requirement that only wood with an MC below 20% be burned. 

I would like to be able to legally use my hearth appliance. The pellet stove is a cheap heat in my area with prices that haven't passed 200$ per ton in many years. I'm not a big fan of the noise but if they became legal I would rather make the investment into a nice pellet stove than a gas stove due to fuel cost alone.


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## oldspark (Feb 23, 2012)

What are they going to do for the people who only heat with wood, hang them out to dry?


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## woodsmaster (Feb 23, 2012)

WOW, unbelievable !


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2012)

It isn't a grand for heating with wood. It is a fine for heating with wood during "burn ban" days. What he needs is alternative heat for those days. Not to rip out his wood burner. There are more non-burn ban days than burn ban days.


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## Highbeam (Feb 24, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> It isn't a grand for heating with wood. It is a fine for heating with wood during "burn ban" days. What he needs is alternative heat for those days. Not to rip out his wood burner. There are more non-burn ban days than burn ban days.



Correct, the fine is for burning during burn ban days. The threshold for those days is going to be dropped significantly as part of this legislation. If wood heat is your only source of heat then you are allowed to burn solid fuel during a ban. 

What I need is up for discussion. In a perfect world I could have my woodburner as well as an alternative but in my small home with a single hearth I must choose one or the other. That is why I am seeking information on alternatives. 

Perhaps I could add a gas stove in a less central hearth location. Would the heat travel?


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## BrotherBart (Feb 24, 2012)

Understand. With a direct vent propane stove you could do a simple vent out the back through a wall without the need for a chimney. Gives you flexibility as to where to locate it based on available space.


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## oldspark (Feb 24, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> It isn't a grand for heating with wood. It is a fine for heating with wood during "burn ban" days. What he needs is alternative heat for those days. Not to rip out his wood burner. There are more non-burn ban days than burn ban days.


 I got that from his posts but no heat is no heat.


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## Highbeam (Feb 27, 2012)

Handy dandy fuel cost calculator to the rescue. Turns out that my 10 cent per kWH hour electricity makes propane, even at 2$ per gallon, a waste of money. 

Looks like it's either pellet or electric if I must stop using cordwood.


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## begreen (Feb 27, 2012)

Having left propane long behind I would personally recommend a good mini-split system. Electricity pricing is far less volatile and we live in the perfect region for a good heat pump. IMO, they are the best unducted heaters for our climate. The friends I've recommended them to are very happy campers.


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## TradEddie (Feb 27, 2012)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> What I need is up for discussion. In a perfect world I could have my woodburner as well as an alternative but in my small home with a single hearth I must choose one or the other. That is why I am seeking information on alternatives.
> 
> Perhaps I could add a gas stove in a less central hearth location. Would the heat travel?



Why do you need an alternative?  If you have no alternative, the ban does not apply.  If you buy an alternative, you will have to follow burn bans.  Nobody is being forced to buy anything new, or scrap any existing system, but if you do have an alternative system, on days when pollution is most serious, everyone is being asked to pitch in and help reduce the problem.  Keep the stove.

TE


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## Retired Guy (Feb 27, 2012)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Handy dandy fuel cost calculator to the rescue. Turns out that my 10 cent per kWH hour electricity makes propane, even at 2$ per gallon, a waste of money.
> 
> Looks like it's either pellet or electric if I must stop using cordwood.



That's why I converted from a $4.90/gal propane water heater to a $0.127 KWH electric.


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## Highbeam (Feb 28, 2012)

TradEddie said:
			
		

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I have electric wall heaters in each room that make up my current "alternative". This high cost alternative is dependable but is not cheap. I suppose everybody with a hair dryer or portable electric space heater has this same alternative. The burn bans usually occur when temps are very low and last several days. On principle, I have not used them for years. A couple of the heaters have become disabled so I am able to claim that I have no alternative to wood heat, sorta. 

Mini splits are perfect except the indoor unit is remarkably stupid looking. The standard indoor units can not be flush mounted in a ceiling for aesthetics.  Have you ever seen one that is any more attractive than mounting a microwave to the wall? I do appreciate the low outdoor operating temps and the efficiency of the modern minisplits. They are not common. Maybe I should see if any of the good brands have come out with an attractive indoor unit. I did stash a 30 amp 220 volt line in the attic for a future well that I could use. 

Even though this is not the intent of the thread.... Burn bans in my area are not appropriately administered. My wood burning is not part of the problem being encountered in the inner city 40 miles away. The clean air folks acknowledge this but since they only have one or two sampling stations per county (in the deep city) they ban burning county wide which effects those of us way out (over a hundred miles) on a mountain where the air is clear. I am not interested in being a part of the solution but I find it wise to comply to prevent the hassle of being fined by some revenue generating enforcement guy.


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## Highbeam (Feb 28, 2012)

Here's the stupid looking indoor unit. My home is pretty small and though stickbuilt, was built long and skinny. Not unlike a double wide mobile home. Adding what looks like an RV furnace onto the inside wall makes the home even more mobile looking. 

This is a mitsubishi unit that the owner loves. Great performance. This wall thing in my living room.... not so good.


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## TradEddie (Feb 28, 2012)

Weird, I thought I'd replied to this already...

Is it worth worrying about at all since assuming you have a certified stove, then you'd only be affected by a Stage 2 ban, how many days a year is that?  If your electric system was gone (or broken), then your only restriction on a certified device is to burn without smoke on Stage 2 days.

For the more fundamental issue, get your wood-burning neighbors together and let your local and state representatives know how you all feel.  This year, you might be surprised.

TE


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## begreen (Feb 28, 2012)

Highbeam said:
			
		

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They are pretty common in our area. Sounds like you may need to make a field trip. I have friends that have installed them in all sorts of houses from contemporary to old farm houses. And they blend in well. Personally I would focus on efficiency, noise level and reliability before worrying too much about looks.


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## Highbeam (Feb 28, 2012)

Obviously a wise choice for function but unacceptable aesthetics front and center in the living room. If I get creative about putting the thing up in a side room then maybe it could heat the home. You have mentioned a few particularly good brands before for heating in our area. Could you rename those and perhaps your favorite source so that I can read up and price them? 

Stage 2 burn bans are common. The clean air folks really should be using stage 1 bans aggresively but they don't so a stage two ban usually follows a day or two after a stage one begins. Politicians have a hard time getting behind a minority, especially a minority that appears to be encouraging polluted air.


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## MishMouse (Feb 28, 2012)

For these burn bans is it only for a certain area of WA or is it statewide?
Reason why I ask I thought Blaze King was located in Walla Walla, Washington.
If so wouldn't a burn ban affect their business?


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## Highbeam (Feb 28, 2012)

Not statewide, countywide. Realize though that our counties are the size of some states and include everything from wilderness to dense urban cities. My county for example, includes mount Rainier as well as the city Tacoma. Sitting in your cabin a two hour's drive into the mountains from Tacoma, after a day skiing, hunting, or snowmobiling you are not allowed to light your epa woodstove without facing a 1000$ fine. Even a BK! 

BK is in Walla Walla which is in Eastern WA. The eastern side of the state is decidedly conservative with a non-coastal climate. Eastern WA has tried a few times to become its own state in an effort to stop being influenced by the large populations of city folks on the west side of the state.   

All burn bans should affect the solid fuel burner industries. Even larger than BK, Travis industries is also a WA company along with Quadrafire. You would think that these industries would put up a fight to regulate the clean air enforcement people but it seems that they don't need the sales.


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## Retired Guy (Mar 3, 2012)

LG has a product line of HPs called Art Cool. Comes in a couple of form factors.
http://ecomfort.com/products/la096h...one-heat-pump-mini-split-13-seer9000-btu/3575


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## Highbeam (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks for the link RG. It turns out I've got a buddy that works in sales for a major heating company that can get me great prices on the LG units. I'm investigating wiring requirements now. The mirror front and picture frame indoor units offer an alternative for the ugly part. 

When considering heating with a gas fireplace, do your homework! These mini-splits heat for a third the cost of propane. Not nearly as attractive as a nice stove and they won't work in a power outage but for cheap heat they seem to be a great option.


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