# Adding water to the boiler



## larryjbjr (Oct 26, 2017)

I was just thinking the other day, right now I have a water hose stuck into the top of the boiler so when she gets a little low on water I simply turn the spigot on and top her off. But that ain’t going to work once temps get below freezing.

So can someone tell me how to set my boiler up so that I can fill it without having to stick a hose in the top?

PS: I assume that it is normal to lose a little water here and there.....


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## Bad LP (Oct 26, 2017)

Add a fill valve with a back flow preventer to the return or your primary loop depending on how it's plumbed.


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## peakbagger (Oct 26, 2017)

Is this an OWB? As long as you install a proper back flow preventor a standard fast fill will work pretty well anywhere on the heating loop.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 26, 2017)

Yes, an OWB.

I’ll look for a back flow preventer then.

Thanks.


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## leon (Oct 26, 2017)

Can you see the water level gauge from where you will be filling it?


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## larryjbjr (Oct 26, 2017)

No.


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## leon (Oct 26, 2017)

You can invest in a cheap plastic water meter to count gallons if you know 
approximately how many gallons per inch of depth you have in the 
boiler to properly fill it.


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## Fred61 (Oct 26, 2017)

Is it standard procedure to be topping off an OWB that frequently?


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## larryjbjr (Oct 26, 2017)

Fred61 said:


> Is it standard procedure to be topping off an OWB that frequently?



I assume since this is an open system that some evaporation is normal.


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## pernox (Oct 26, 2017)

Fred61 said:


> Is it standard procedure to be topping off an OWB that frequently?


Not


larryjbjr said:


> I was just thinking the other day, right now I have a water hose stuck into the top of the boiler so when she gets a little low on water I simply turn the spigot on and top her off. But that ain’t going to work once temps get below freezing.
> 
> So can someone tell me how to set my boiler up so that I can fill it without having to stick a hose in the top?
> 
> PS: I assume that it is normal to lose a little water here and there.....


Not sure if other models are different, but with mine I only top off yearly if that. If you're filling regularly because it needs the water, I would consider looking for a leak in your system. For example, I topped up last year with some treatment and water, and my first few fires actually burped water. Turned out the fill wasn't necessary. 

Woodmaster 4400, open loop.


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## Bob Rohr (Oct 26, 2017)

Is it boiling over?  It really should not need frequent water fill.  Remember every time you add water you are adding addition minerals that precipitate out on the walls of the boiler.

If you really had to add watt frequently, build a toilet tank type fill set to the level you need to maintain.  But it really should not take that much technology.


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## SuperSpy (Oct 27, 2017)

Not to mention you're diluting the anti-corrosion agent (you're using anti-corrosion agent, right?) every time you fill it.

The manual on my CB states very loudly that you have to check and re-apply corrosion agent every time you add any amount of water to the unit, then immediately fire the boiler and get it up to temperature as bacteria in the water can feed on some of the anti-corrosion chemicals if not killed.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 27, 2017)

I just got the boiler installed this year. It was a used boiler I bought real cheap.

I have had to add water for two reasons:

1: Occasionally she boils over. I’m not sure why yet, but I think maybe I am putting too much wood in there. It mostly idles but for some reason the temp stays way up there and occasionally boils over.

2: I have some kind of algae in my system. When I first started running it the Y strainer kept getting clogged up. So twice a day I open it up and clean the Y strainer. When I do so I usually run a few gallons of water through it to make sure the pump is not dry. For a while there I was doing real good and not getting hardly anything in the strainer. But yesterday the system boiled over again and now last night and this morning the strainer was totally clogged.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 27, 2017)

I do not currently have any chemicals in the water. I am planning to order some cleaner and rust inhibitor from Johnson sometime next week.

I was about to order some last week but I am not sure if the cleaner they have will deal with the algae problem. I think I’m just gonna try and see what happens.

Money is tight, that’s why I switched to wood in the first place. But I’m just going to have to do what I have to do


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## SuperSpy (Oct 27, 2017)

Opening up the system to clean is ironically what's probably re-introducing the algae.  What I would do once you get your chemicals is completely empty the boiler (once the fire is fully out of course), flush it out with extra water, then add the chemicals to the empty boiler, then add water.  Make sure you don't fill it all the way to the maximum fill line as the water will expand when heated.  Once you get the chemicals in it and the boiler (mostly) full.  Immediately heat the unit to sterilize the water.

That should ensure your initial charge of water is completely clean and properly treated.  After that, you should really find the cause of the boil-overs as the excess heat can be really hard on the steel if it ends up exposed without something to cool it.


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## maple1 (Oct 27, 2017)

Shouldn't be so easy to boil it over. You might need to check your shut-down controls (draft fan? natural draft with a damper flap?) and make sure that's OK.  And aquastat settings. It also might not be seeing the internal circulation it needs - i.e., too hot on top while bottom isn't that hot. But we don't know much about your boiler and the way it's set up.

I don't think I would guess at, or trial and error, things re. treatment. Call a pro - there are places that deal with this stuff, know what they are doing, and will get you the right stuff & procedures. I forget the names - maybe Precision Chemical or something like that might be one? Someone else can clear that part up, hopefully. Adding fresh water to it will just keep adding more oxygen & minerals into the boiler - prime environment for rusting.


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## Fred61 (Oct 27, 2017)

I' not suggesting what you should do but I'll tell you what I would do. Because of my past career in the sixties when I was trying to accomplish things that bordered on the impossible at the time, I regularly had to think out of the box.

The algae must be killed. Flushing with plain water won't do it. I would give it a healthy dose of copper sulfate, heat it up and circulate for a period. The gunk captured in the strainer will turn brown and will need to be cleaned after short sessions of pumping. Then I would rinse it thoroughly.

I used to buy copper sulfate by the bag. for treating my pond. It was relatively inexpensive. I usually keep a small amount around for coloring the flames of our campfires.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 27, 2017)

Fred61 said:


> The algae must be killed. Flushing with plain water won't do it. I would give it a healthy dose of copper sulfate, heat it up and circulate for a period. The gunk captured in the strainer will turn brown and will need to be cleaned after short sessions of pumping. Then I would rinse it thoroughly.
> 
> I used to buy copper sulfate by the bag. for treating my pond. It was relatively inexpensive. I usually keep a small amount around for coloring the flames of our campfires.



Wouldn’t copper sulfate simply cause of the algae to settle to the bottom?


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## larryjbjr (Oct 27, 2017)

I contacted the man who sold me the boiler. He actually is an elderly gentleman who used to be a Johnson dealer. He is shipping me some cleaner and some treatment as well. Should be here Monday.


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## pernox (Oct 27, 2017)

Are the boil over issues happening right after a fill? If so, it's just the water expanding, and it will level itself off. I agree with the above that you want to check your temp controls as well - if you're set to cut off too high, turning the high limit down may solve it. Mine will go up to 190 safely according to the manual if I recall correctly, but I keep it at 175 just for added safety. We burn lots of pine in the shoulder seasons.

I agree with your plan of dealing with the algae first. Once that has been addressed and you have a proper fluid mix in there you can really dive into the boil over issue. You may just find that having a clean loop solves all of it.


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## Fred61 (Oct 28, 2017)

larryjbjr said:


> Wouldn’t copper sulfate simply cause of the algae to settle to the bottom?



I doubt that you'll find a chemical that will invite it out of the boiler and kill it.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Oct 28, 2017)

Like others have mentioned about boiling. You have a few possibilities. 1 is the aquastat isn't shutting down at the correct temp, check and watch that. 2 check flapper door is not hanging up when it closes allowing air to keep entering the boiler and boil off. Three is lack of boiler flow internally causing hot and cold spots which is really bad for your boiler. This causes boilers to fail quickly, the steel doesn't like water boiling against it.

As far as algae goes, thinking out of the box, how about pool chlorine shock or bleach? This should easily kill an algae bloom like a pool. I can't see chlorine hurting the boiler components but I may be wrong. Chlorine dissipates quickly, just don't use a  shock tab  with that chemical that makes the chlorine last.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 28, 2017)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> Like others have mentioned about boiling. You have a few possibilities. 1 is the aquastat isn't shutting down at the correct temp, check and watch that. 2 check flapper door is not hanging up when it closes allowing air to keep entering the boiler and boil off. Three is lack of boiler flow internally causing hot and cold spots which is really bad for your boiler. This causes boilers to fail quickly, the steel doesn't like water boiling against it.
> 
> As far as algae goes, thinking out of the box, how about pool chlorine shock or bleach? This should easily kill an algae bloom like a pool. I can't see chlorine hurting the boiler components but I may be wrong. Chlorine dissipates quickly, just don't use a  shock tab  with that chemical that makes the chlorine last.



I have checked the aquastat and the flapper door and both are working just fine. I’m thinking it may be my loading door. I’m going to check it again and maybe tighten it up a little bit.

Honestly, I thought maybe I was just putting too much wood in there considering that my boiler is idling most of the time. Yesterday I put less wood in there and it seem like it did fine. On days that I work I’m going 14 hours. So normally in the morning I just load her up pretty full  to make sure I have a good bed of coals by time I get back.

I would be very nervous to put chlorine in there. Just doesn’t seem like a good idea. Maybe some others could chime in?

I think for now though I’m just going to try flushing it with the cleaner I’m getting. If I still have trouble after that I might be willing to take some greater risk....


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## Countryboy1966 (Oct 28, 2017)

Overheating can be coming from the pipe/pump sizing aspect of the system design.

Unfortunatley its the only type of overheating issue I have ever really had.  

Consider sharing your pipe pump sizings run lengths etc and I bet you will find a few things to improve.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Oct 28, 2017)

Is bleach bad for metal components? 

I forgot door gaskets, check those as well!


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## larryjbjr (Oct 29, 2017)

Countryboy1966 said:


> Overheating can be coming from the pipe/pump sizing aspect of the system design.
> 
> Unfortunatley its the only type of overheating issue I have ever really had.
> 
> Consider sharing your pipe pump sizings run lengths etc and I bet you will find a few things to improve.



80’ of PEX A running to basement and thru 40 plate heat exchanger. B&G NR22 circulator with a bronze Y strainer before the circ. 

Here is a pic of the setup in the basement.


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## maple1 (Oct 29, 2017)

What size is that Pex?

I think you have compounding issues with this algae thing going on. It is crudding up your filter as you said - any such  flow restrictions will diminish your flow pretty badly, even a partial restriction. That isn't a real capable circulator you have - but it might be OK if you were restriction free. It could also be crudding up your heat exchanger. You should do some replumbing there so you can easily flush it - I don't see any isolation valves or hose bibs for flushing.

Do we know what boiler you have? Didn't see it above. Does it have a bypass loop? It might need one for adequate internal circulation - also serving for return temp protection.

Do you have an IR temp gun? That should help tell how good or bad your water is flowing, by measuring everywhere water is entering or leaving something. Shiney surfaces don't work good with them, you would need to spray some flat black paint on a copper pipe before getting a decent reading.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 29, 2017)

1” Pex 

Johnson Little John, about 17 yrs old but sat drained and unused for at least the last 4 years.

No bypass loop.

I can flush the heat exchanger by popping the quick connect fittings loose.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 29, 2017)

Water entering and leaving the heat exchanger is very close in temp when not heating the house. Is that good enough?


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## SuperSpy (Oct 31, 2017)

Chlorine is very corrosive to metal, don't even think about putting it in the boiler.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 31, 2017)

SuperSpy said:


> Chlorine is very corrosive to metal, don't even think about putting it in the boiler.



I thought so


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## Bob Rohr (Oct 31, 2017)

Must be a mighty age that can survive boiling temperatures?  Although alge does survive around boiling hot springs, but it needs a certain water chemistry to live.

Possibly an iron bacteria which lives by consuming the ferrous components in the system, turns into a nasty black sludge, smells like rotten eggs.  I've only seen it once in a hydronic system, tough bugger to kill.

Also some public water systems are adding polyphosphates to treat turbity, that too can turn into a nasty heavy sludge which will plug HX, pumps, valves, etc.  The Garn folks have some experience with that crud.

You may need to get a pressure washer wand inside and strip away the crud.


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## larryjbjr (Oct 31, 2017)

OK, I got some cleaner today. It is called prep solution 102.

The instructions say to put in the boiler and leave it there for about 4-12 hrs, then flush it out and refill with freshwater.

My question is this, do I continue to circulate the water through my heat exchanger with that stuff in there?


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## Fred61 (Oct 31, 2017)

Chlorine is regularly poured into drilled wells to KILL rust bacteria and also to kill nasties on pipe and components that have laid on the ground during pump servicing or replacement. Got a dog?

Wells with static levels that are up in the casing will continually rust if chlorine is not added to kill the rust.


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## JRemington (Nov 5, 2017)

You need to flush it completely and add some boiler rust inhibitor?  Is this an indoor or outdoor boiler? Also, I don't see where your using this for domestic water. Do you have antifreeze in it?  Regarding your adding water do you have domestic water hooked into the return wit a low pressure valve?  You might also consider an Alpha pump. This will allow you to control the gpm and know what your flow is.


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## larryjbjr (Nov 5, 2017)

JRemington said:


> You need to flush it completely and add some boiler rust inhibitor?  Is this an indoor or outdoor boiler? Also, I don't see where your using this for domestic water. Do you have antifreeze in it?  Regarding your adding water do you have domestic water hooked into the return wit a low pressure valve?  You might also consider an Alpha pump. This will allow you to control the gpm and know what your flow is.



It's an outdoor boiler. Right now just straight softened water,nothing else. 

I do not use it to heat DHW, nor do I have it hooked into the domestic water at all. 

Explain what you mean by an Alpha pump.


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## larryjbjr (Nov 5, 2017)

Also, I think I solved my boiling over problem. The door was loose. I tightened it up quite a bit yesterday and now I seem to not be burning so much wood when idling.


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## JRemington (Nov 5, 2017)

Grundfus makes a pump called the Alpha. It has a digital readout that lets you adjust the voltage and set the gallons per minute you are pushing. We install them on all of our coal boilers.


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## JRemington (Nov 5, 2017)

I was taught by the Amish to install wood and coal boilers. We never use an Aquastat on a solid fuel boiler. It runs 24/7. If the weather gets warm and the zones aren't calling for heat that's when a boiler either smolderes and causes a creasote issue or they blow off. Run them constant and adjust the water temp. Outdoor wood boilers have to large of water jackets. Some are as big as 150 gallons. They were designed for people who have an unlimited supply of wood. Our Coal boilers have a 50 gallon jacket.


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## maple1 (Nov 6, 2017)

JRemington said:


> I was taught by the Amish to install wood and coal boilers. We never use an Aquastat on a solid fuel boiler. It runs 24/7. If the weather gets warm and the zones aren't calling for heat that's when a boiler either smolderes and causes a creasote issue or they blow off. Run them constant and adjust the water temp. Outdoor wood boilers have to large of water jackets. Some are as big as 150 gallons. They were designed for people who have an unlimited supply of wood. Our Coal boilers have a 50 gallon jacket.



How do you get solid fuel boilers to adjust their temps without using an aquastat?


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## JRemington (Nov 6, 2017)

Our boilers have Sampson regulators that open and close the air draft similar to how a car thermostat works. If the water temp is set at 170 and the water reaches temp the draft doors close. When it lowers the draft doors open. There's no power needed other than the Circulator pump. We usually set them for 170 degrees. That gives a 30 degree leeway to blowoff at 200.


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## maple1 (Nov 6, 2017)

How do you control the circulators?


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## JRemington (Nov 6, 2017)

The Circulator pump on the return to the boiler runs constantly. If you have zones in the house and the zones aren't calling for heat you would have a return loop coming back to the outside boiler.


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## TCaldwell (Nov 6, 2017)

Are you referring to Samson, the German manufacturer, so in order to have the boiler running 24/7 you would have to regulate the water temp, like outdoor reset does. Do you have to manually adjust the Samson valve based upon the heat load/ outdoor temp?


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## JRemington (Nov 6, 2017)

The Sampson reg opens the draft door based on water temperature. Be it 30 or neg 30 the doors open based on temp of the water.


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## TCaldwell (Nov 6, 2017)

So the regulator maintains a boiler water temp of 170, if no zones are calling the water returns to the boiler, so you have a primary loop circ and zone circs.


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## JRemington (Nov 6, 2017)

Yes. If the loop doesn't cool the water enough you can add a dump such as a radiator or a bigger loop. One guy I know made a Heat dump by running the off loop through a 40 gallon water heater.


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## maple1 (Nov 6, 2017)

The Samson would still do the same thing an an aquastat would though, right? I cant see how this would lessen smoldering and creosoting unless its by increasing heat loss to the ground or other surroundings, from the water running 24/7. A natural draft boiler which a Samson would control usually has less potential for increased combustion efficiencies also - I think?

I think we're getting off topic a bit, maybe.


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## JRemington (Nov 6, 2017)

The Sampson isn't going to reduce smoldering.  Circulating the water continuously on warmer days will. It will help cool the water causing the drafts to open and getting the wood to flame. Most of my experience is with wood coal combos. When you're running a 50 gallon jacket and burning wood it's easy to create a creasote problem. I guess I am getting off topic using the different boilers as a comparison.


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## larryjbjr (Nov 7, 2017)

Is creosote buildup inside an outdoor wood boiler a problem? Seems to me like it wouldn’t hurt anything, and might help protect the metal on the inside Of the firebox.


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## JRemington (Nov 7, 2017)

larryjbjr said:


> Is creosote buildup inside an outdoor wood boiler a problem? Seems to me like it wouldn’t hurt anything, and might help protect the metal on the inside Of the firebox.


I've seen boilers that have been destroyed by creosote fires. I've been told it can burn at 1500 degrees.


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## maple1 (Nov 7, 2017)

I don't think I would consider creosote build up in a firebox as something protective.

It can be quite corrosive actually, especially a buildup of liquidy type stuff that might run down and accumulate under some ashes & stay there. What builds up on firebox walls usually is dry scaly stuff that will only build up so much - seems to burn off a bit each burn, with regular hot operation. But bets are kind of off if it's the thicker gooey stuff you would get from excess smoldering.


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## larryjbjr (Nov 7, 2017)

OK, I have a little of both. Mostly the dry stuff but I also have quite a bit of the gooey stuff on the door and stuff.


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## SuperSpy (Nov 8, 2017)

Creosote build-up is somewhat corrosive, but the big problem is that it traps moisture up against the steel which greatly accelerate corrosion.


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## JRemington (Nov 8, 2017)

Changing my wood boiler to a coal boiler was the best thing I ever did. That ended the creosote issue and I load it once a day. I went from 30 cord of wood to four ton of coal.


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## Fred61 (Nov 8, 2017)

SuperSpy said:


> Creosote build-up is somewhat corrosive, but the big problem is that it traps moisture up against the steel which greatly accelerate corrosion.


Small hot fires will help to keep the creosote dry and flakey if you can get away with them from time to time. Absence of moisture nearly eliminates the corrosion process. 

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk


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## maple1 (Nov 8, 2017)

JRemington said:


> Changing my wood boiler to a coal boiler was the best thing I ever did. That ended the creosote issue and I load it once a day. I went from 30 cord of wood to four ton of coal.



30 cords?? Holy moly....


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## salecker (Nov 9, 2017)

JRemington said:


> Changing my wood boiler to a coal boiler was the best thing I ever did. That ended the creosote issue and I load it once a day. I went from 30 cord of wood to four ton of coal.


Holly crap what are you heating?
I know a guy who goes through at least that much wood up here.He has a CB and poor underground lines.He heats his house and shop.His heat load isn't much more than mine and i use around 8 cords a year.


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## larryjbjr (Nov 26, 2017)

Here’s an update on the original topic.

I added the chemical to clean the boiler, let it circulate for about 10 hours, then flushed it out and added fresh water. Then I added the rust inhibitor to it. 

That seems to have done the job. I haven’t had hardly anything in the strainer over the last few days. 

I Also have not had a boil over in the last probably two weeks. I think it was that the door was the letting too much air in and that was my problem.

Thank you to all for all the advice.


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