# House Water Leak Detector and Auto Shutoff?



## velvetfoot (Oct 14, 2009)

Does anyone know anything about this subject?
I'm thinking wireless detectors sprinkled around the house shutting off the house water if there is a leak.
Not sure if there is such a thing, and if so, what's best.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 14, 2009)

I've found this so far:
http://www.watercop.com


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## peakbagger (Oct 14, 2009)

I think Taco sells a non electric water shut off valve for hot water heaters that could probably be used. Its a normally open valve with a insert that swells when its is immersed in water. Once its swells the valve is shut.  The valve would need to be on the main line in a low spot on the floor. I  looked several years ago for a sensor for an industrial application and the majority of the sensors required a sensor mounted in a low point to detect liquid water.


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## LLigetfa (Oct 14, 2009)

I don't have anything that shuts off the water but I do have a Zircon Leak Alert.  It stands vigil by my water heater.  I soldered a RJ11 phone jack to it and wired it into probes in my sump pit.  It has saved me grief several times now with a couple of sump pump failures and a water heater leak.

http://www.zircon.com/products/more_leak_alert.html


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## Gooserider (Oct 14, 2009)

I have seen a variety of special purpose valves of this sort, but nothing that would do a whole house...

I've seen a valve that is supposed to be put in the catch pan of your water heater, and will shut off the water to the heater, as well as the gas (if it's a gas unit) - but it was very expensive, and was a "one shot" unit, if it gets wet, it trips and you need to replace the valve - IMHO not an acceptable alternative, as I think it's the kind of thing that should be testable, and or resettable in case you have one of "those"  :red:  moments that results in a spill or minor leak.

I've also seen a unit that was supposed to go on the shutoff valves for your clothes washer, again, very expensive, but at least this one appeared to be resettable.

I would think that it should be possible to rig up something that would work - put a normally closed "automag" style solenoid valve on the house water line, and figure out a relay that would cut power to the valve if any sensors (wired as you choose) said you had a flood...

I would say that if I were a code official type, I would probably look rather unfavorably at such a setup if it were such that it would cut off flow to a fire sprinkler system, but wouldn't have a problem with cutting off the general flow to the rest of the house...

Gooserider


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## LLigetfa (Oct 14, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I've also seen a unit that was supposed to go on the shutoff valves for your clothes washer, again, very expensive, but at least this one appeared to be resettable.


I've seen those too.  They monitor the current draw on the wash machine along with the water flow.  If there is water flow without current draw, it assumes a burst pipe and shuts off the water.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 14, 2009)

Here is another whole house model that measures water usage trends and activates when it detects an abnormal pattern.
http://www.h2obreaker.com/


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## Gooserider (Oct 15, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Here is another whole house model that measures water usage trends and activates when it detects an abnormal pattern.
> http://www.h2obreaker.com/



That is a cool sounding bit of technology, and while it is steep, the price doesn't sound unreasonable...

LL, that also sounds like a neat technology for the washer valve, and it sounds different from the one I've seen - the one I saw appeared to be a water detector alarm hooked to a set of solenoid shutoff valves on the washer connection - both techniques would probably work, with possibly a slight advantage to the water detector, as it could shut off flow to a machine that was apparently working properly, but had a leak in the tub or a plugged drain line that was causing the machine to overflow...  OTOH the current & flow model might operate faster, especially if the failure was such as to direct the water away from the flood sensor.

Just goes to show that in order to have the perfect failure response, you have to know exactly what the failure will be...

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Oct 15, 2009)

Would shutdown of water to a normally operating water heater, in my case a tank on a separate zone off an oil boiler, potentially cause a problem?


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## Gooserider (Oct 15, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Would shutdown of water to a normally operating water heater, in my case a tank on a separate zone off an oil boiler, potentially cause a problem?


Some of our experts will hopefully pick up on it if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't expect it to...  In theory, if a tank was to fire without water, you could damage it - especially you might burn out the elements in an electric heater, but simply shutting off the water into the system shouldn't empty the tank as there would then be no pressure to cause the tank to drain....  The water in the tank would warm up, and the heater would turn off just like it would when the faucets are off.

Now if you had a plumbing break below the level of the tank, then shutting off the water supply might allow the tank to drain, but in that case I suspect that damage to the tank would be the least of your worries....

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Oct 18, 2009)

I had an idea.
A cheap way to do it could be to attach a timer like this, http://www.aubetech.com/products/produitsDetails.php?noProduit=76&noLangue=2 , to the well pump relay.
It could be set like a programmable thermostat for when you aren't usually home.  You can operate the switch manually.  I'm not sure if it tells you whether it's in the on or off position.  Plus, it's meant to work with 115 volts.  
Edit:  I just looked.  There's no relay at the tank.
Hey, it's an idea.


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## Gooserider (Oct 18, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I had an idea.
> A cheap way to do it could be to attach a timer like this, http://www.aubetech.com/products/produitsDetails.php?noProduit=76&noLangue=2 , to the well pump relay.
> It could be set like a programmable thermostat for when you aren't usually home.  You can operate the switch manually.  I'm not sure if it tells you whether it's in the on or off position.  Plus, it's meant to work with 115 volts.
> Edit:  I just looked.  There's no relay at the tank.
> Hey, it's an idea.



If I'm getting what you were suggesting, your idea was to shut off the well pump when you didn't think anyone would be home?  If so, that is certainly a legitimate option, and it might be an approach that would be easier to implement with water detectors and the like than shutting off the actual water supply like those of us on municipal systems would have to do...

I know the family had a summer cottage when I was growing up, and part of the ritual when coming and going was to turn off all non-essential breakers, including the pump and water heater...

Even if you don't have a relay presently, there is nothing I know of that would prevent you from adding one of the appropriate size and rating so long as you paid proper attention to not upsetting any other controls in the system...

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Oct 18, 2009)

Last time we went on vacation I turned off the water breaker as well.
I didn't think at the time of the water still left in the well pressure tank.
I just recently installed a shutoff valve for an icemaker and operated the main shutoff valve, and it worked, so that's a good thing.
That's a pretty beefy line going down to deep submersible pump.
I'll keep on looking at this stuff.

It's not that I'm paranoid about this, it's just that in the course of replacing the icemaker hose, I've seen how flimsy the mfr's setup is, and realized how much a mess there would be if there'd be a break in any lines in the house.


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## Gooserider (Oct 18, 2009)

Well the only way to keep the water in the well pressure tank out would be to do a shutoff on the water line...  Killing the well pump power will just keep the pump from trying to refill the tank after it has drained, which is still messy but at least it gives you a limited flood - just how bad depends on how big the tank is.

At the same time, if one wants to play the odds, it seems like we don't hear an awful lot about plumbing failure induced floods, so while it sucks if you happen to be the "lucky" person that gets one, it doesn't seem like a major problem, no matter how flimsy stuff seems to be.

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Oct 20, 2009)

I just thought of a zone valve, like below,  85 bucks.
It'd still have to be controlled by something or other.

http://www.radiantheatproducts.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=112





edit:  This valve consumes power and is apparently best suited for intermittant duty.
An actuated ball valve would be better.


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## rowerwet (Oct 20, 2009)

I have thought of attaching a lobster pot type of float to the arm of the ball valve that is on the supply line to my house, of course by the time it cut off the water I would have about a foot of water in the basement.


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## LLigetfa (Oct 20, 2009)

Two common failures resulting in the most water damage are toilet tank ruptures and washer hose ruptures.  Over-tightening bolts on the toilet are said to be the blame but poor quality control in manufacture is a big factor.  Water hammer is a factor in hose ruptures and hammer stops go a long way to prevent damage.  Steel braided hoses are good insurance against rupture.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 20, 2009)

And yet the ends of those steel braided hoses are crimped on just like a garden hose.


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## Gooserider (Oct 20, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> And yet the ends of those steel braided hoses are crimped on just like a garden hose.



True, but I suspect if you examined the failure modes for hose ruptures, you would find that the problem was NOT with the crimped ends...  If properly made, the ends are probably the strongest part of the hose.  I have seen failures near the ends of a hose, especially when it gets sharply bent at that point, but the crimps themselves are really not an issue.

Gooserider


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## rowerwet (Oct 21, 2009)

I wonder if pex plumbing being plastic reduces the water hammer, compared to copper. I put many vertical stubs on my copper runs to take care of water hammer, one on the hot water heater in and a couple on each cold water run.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 21, 2009)

Water hammer would be a reason to choose a  ball valve over solenoid.


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## Gooserider (Oct 21, 2009)

rowerwet said:
			
		

> I wonder if pex plumbing being plastic reduces the water hammer, compared to copper. I put many vertical stubs on my copper runs to take care of water hammer, one on the hot water heater in and a couple on each cold water run.



Not an expert, but some of the stuff I've read on PEX claims that it does help dissipate water hammer shock.  Not sure it would eliminate it, but it would probably help a lot.

Gooserider


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## LLigetfa (Oct 21, 2009)

I have all copper lines and I used the largest stubs I could find which flare out to about an inch and are over a foot long.  I put them at the end of all long runs and also at the washing machine.  One place I didn't think to put them are at the iron filter and water softener, both of which have valves that slam shut and they do rattle the pipes.


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## Vic99 (Oct 23, 2009)

Bought a water alarm that is just a box with 2 metal moisture sensitive contacts.  Cost about $15 I think.  Placed on the floor of my basement next to my water heater.  Two months ago my water heater started leaking.  Man, was that thing loud.  Since I was home, probably only had 3-4 gallons to clean up before I could kill a shutoff.

Totally worth 15 bucks.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 23, 2009)

Excellent.  I'm bought 6 of them yesterday at 10 bucks each an am going to spread them around.

I was looking at some commercial motor operated ball valves and you need a spdt switch to operate.
I don't know if that can be found in a nice wall box mounted digital timer switch.


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## velvetfoot (Oct 28, 2009)

I ordered a a watercop system.
It's probably more of a gadget than anything else.

Any tips on getting a leak free connection?


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## Gooserider (Oct 28, 2009)

If it's a threaded NPT type connection, I haven't found anything yet that beats the "Dope-rope-dope" approach...  Clean the threads w/ a wire brush if needed, put on a layer of pipe dope (I use Rector-seal), 2-3 wraps of teflon tape (make sure to put it on in the proper direction) and a second layer of dope over the teflon.  Screw the fittings together to "hand snug" then put the wrenches on it for 3 full turns additional.  If you have to line up with another connection, I want at least 2.75 turns, preferably more than 3, and ideally want to tighten into lining up, so that the fitting is never allowed to turn in the loosen direction...  It can be a bit messy, but I've never had a fitting put together that way leak...

Gooserider


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## ROBERT F (Oct 29, 2009)

Just a thought, but how about a series of sensor prongs (exposed wire ends) around perimeter of basement. Those could be used to control a low amperage relay wich in turn controlled a high amp relay to control a motorized shut off.  Seen 12" piping in refineries that can be slammed shut in milli seconds if a leak is detected. They use a non arcing sensor but the "probes" should serve the same purpose.  Just bouncing ideas of the crowd.  Of course a powerfailure resulting in heating failure resulting in pipe freeze/burst would just leave you with a really cool wast of time


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## velvetfoot (Oct 29, 2009)

Thanks.  It is an NPT thread.  Rope-a-Dope, lol.

How about a coupling?  The motor operator isn't that heavy.

It'd be nice to extend the usefulness of the rather expensive sensors by stringing together some sensors.  The transmitter with 2 probes is, like, 57 bucks.

I was originally thinking some kind of normally closed solenoid valve - it does require power but it would shut down in event of a power failure.
There must be a reason why ball valves are used though - full flow?.

I don't know much but what I read is that there are electronic vs electric actuators ball valve actuators.  The watercop valve has an electronic actuator, meant for computer control.

Alas it is powered by 120 volts.

There'll be a manual switch by the door to shut things off when leaving as well.
It's just that with the electronic actuator, there's cat5 cable running to the switch and it needs some kind of timed momentary/toggle, so I guess you need the switch they provide.
I still think hooking up a timer to it might be good, but I don't know with the electronic controls.


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## Gooserider (Oct 30, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Thanks.  It is an NPT thread.  Rope-a-Dope, lol.
> 
> How about a coupling?  The motor operator isn't that heavy.
> 
> ...



Not sure what you mean by "coupling" - if you are talking about a pipe union, that isn't a bad idea, at least on one side so that you can disassemble and replace the valve if it were to fail at some point...

Presumably ball valves are used for full flow, and the fact that they are very simple and reliable.  

If your watercop valve is intended for computer control, I'd expect that in addition to the 120v line, it should have some kind of data signal input as well, possibly as simple as a serial line, or maybe something more complex like a USB port...  Presumably it uses the 120v line for the actuator motor, and would need some sort of relay or other interface to control that.  Also is there any documentation on what it does if the 120 line fails?  I know some hydronic zone valves and the like will automatically return to a rest state (NO or NC depending on the valve) when power is removed...

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Oct 30, 2009)

Yes, I meant union.
True, I'd only need one.
Are they pretty easy to get waterproof?
They don't get any pipe dope on the sealing surfaces, do they?

Those zone valves are solenoid valves with springs - no springs here.


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## Gooserider (Oct 30, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Yes, I meant union.
> True, I'd only need one.
> Are they pretty easy to get waterproof?
> They don't get any pipe dope on the sealing surfaces, do they?
> ...



A union should not have ANY form of sealant or other stuff applied to it's junction surfaces, which do need to be kept clean and undamaged...  They are generally pretty easy to get water tight, essentially the tactic is known as "crank em till they stop dripping".  Traditionally they seal based on metal-metal contact between the machined surfaces, and many still do.  There are some that use o-rings or gaskets that are claimed to be easier to tighten up, and / or seal better - however when using them it is important to have spare gaskets / o-rings on hand as you will need to replace if taking them apart....

As to the zone valves and such, some are solenoids, others are small, very low power electric motors with springs on them.  The motor turns on and opens the valve, and remains on to hold it open.  When the power cuts off the spring pulls the valve back shut again.  Taco is now making a series of zone valves that has a micro-motor and a big capacitor in them.  When the valve gets power, it opens and the cap charges up.  The motor shuts off when it reaches end of travel, and the valve sits there with voltage applied, but not drawing any power.  When the power goes away, the cap discharges back through the motor, running it backwards and closing the valve...

Don't know if anybody is doing something like that with a ball valve...  (Oh yes, one of the other reasons ball valves are nice, besides the full flow, is that they tend to offer a very positive shutoff)

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Oct 30, 2009)

I would just say thanks but the board doesn't allow me.
So, thanks!


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## velvetfoot (Nov 13, 2009)

Well it doesn't leak, lol.
The unit doesn't seem to be built that well.  The actuator wasn't aligned correctly so that the valve was partially, not fully open.  There is no adjustment of the limit switch.  I wound up taking it apart and moving the switch and reinstalling it, which mostly worked.  The hardware inside is held onto the case by screws that rest right on plastic.  I don't know, it doesn't seem that well built.

I'm not finished putting in the 3 sensors I got or the on/off switch, which is connected by cat5 cable that goes in the plug. on the front of the switch.

I tested it, and it worked.  Thing is, turnoff isn't instantaneous:  the water that is in the pipes above still goes through the leak.


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## Gooserider (Nov 14, 2009)

No way you're going to get "instant shutoff" - all they can do is stop NEW water from entering the plumbing system - anything that's in the system past the shutoff isn't going to know or care that the valve has closed, and will go out the leak if it has a chance...  (i.e. it's above the leak and there is an air vent...)

Still this isn't a bad thing - plumbing doesn't hold that much volume, so your worst case leak is only going to be a few gallons, compared to the essentially unlimited amount possible w/out the shutoff...

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Nov 14, 2009)

Yeah, and that's not counting the time the water takes to reach one of them pricey sensors.

On another note, I spoke to soon.  One of the unions does leak.  I've done a couple go-rounds of cranking on it with a couple of Crescent wrenches, but not sure how much more I'll be able to crank.  Oh well, hoping for the best.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 14, 2009)

Well, I added another option:  I hardwired a power switch so the well pump can be switched off in the kitchen when leaving the house.  This would protect from a leak upstream from the WaterCop.  It would also keep a quantity of water in the well tank under pressure that could maybe feed boiler makeup, but I'm not sure that's really a factor.  Anyway, a few more sensors and I'll be done.

I'm sure I'll forget to turn anything off when leaving anyway, but at least I'll have the option.
Borderline obsessive?  Yeah, I guess.

Pump switch on left, WaterCop switch on right:


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## velvetfoot (Jul 13, 2011)

So, my wife was watering the plants a little this evening, and all of a sudden the water stopped running.  The Water Cop red light was on, so the valve closed.  It turned out condensation around some uninsulated water pipe and whole house filter leaked in the area of a sensor.  I don't think it was beeping like it was supposed to, but the batteries haven't been changed out for at least a year.


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