# whats the cost of installation?



## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

I'm looking at having a outdoor wood boiler installed and I have no idea what an average cost would be. I found a used wood furnace for $2000. But it doesn't come with anything. No circulating pump or heat exchanger or lines. So my question is what would be an average price for installation or plumping in an outdoor wood furnace? I actually got a quote from a local guy and he quoted me $4,600. I should add that this is all in the upper peninsula of michigan. His quote didn't include burying the lines. Basically it looks like I do all the grunt work and he comes in and does the easy part for a hefty chunk of change. But that is what I see, this is my first outdoor furnace. From what I can figure out the insulated PEX is pretty expensive. I am thinking of locating the furnace about 75-100 feet from the tie-in point on the indoor preexisting gas furnace. Or at least I am thinking 75 foot of insulated PEX including burying it three feet. Also the quote is for adding an side arm heat exchanger for the domestic hot water tank.

So does this sound to high or am I just over reacting?

Thanks for any help you guys can give me.
Jamie


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## Mike Fromme (Dec 30, 2016)

Sounds in the ball park to me.


(Make sure he gets the air out of the lines for that price though)


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

Does it? It just sounded high to me. But I've never had to do this before. Especially after paying $2,000 for the boiler.


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## Mike Fromme (Dec 30, 2016)

If he's quoting thermopex or equivalent AFAIK that's ~10 bucks a foot so that's ~$1000. Heat exchangers, pumps and the various fittings is another easy $1000. Two guys for X hours at ?? Labor. 

I'd expect a licensed plumber would be charging 75-100 per man hour. Add some profit and misc stuff and the fact a lot of guys don't want to mess around with used OWB and 4600 sounds in the ball park.


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

Ok. I just had to make sure. It just seemed high to me.


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## maple1 (Dec 30, 2016)

MAKE SURE that the good underground piping is being used. Thermopex or Logstor type (uses closed cell solid foam insulation).

Anything of the wrapped insulation variety is to be avoided.


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

He is. I saw a cross section picture of it.  And after I got the quote I went online and looked up parts and cost as much as I could find. I found out that the under ground PEX was the most expensive part besides the boiler. I'm not actually in Michigan, I'm paying this guy to do it at my moms house and I live down in louisiana. Other wise I'd do it myself. I'm renting the house out and I've found the gas bill is a little high for most renters. It's about $4,000 a year in heating, that's heating a 40 something year old house on a lake.


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## maple1 (Dec 30, 2016)

That doesn't look like closed cell foam exactly. What is the brand/name of it?


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

I'm not sure the brand name. It might not be closed cell either.


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

It almost looks like this here---


http://hpac.com/new-products/watts-radiant-r-flex-pre-insulated-pex-piping


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## maple1 (Dec 30, 2016)

Yes, it does. The Watts site does say its closed cell. Do you know $/foot?

Insulation is a different color though. Long as it isn't a cheaper knock off...


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

No I don't know $/ft..


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## StihlKicking (Dec 30, 2016)

Here's a break down of what I paid.
New boiler-$5600
Heat EX- 500
Rented trencher-200
Concrete for pad-250
Underground pipe-650
Tstat wire-60
Labor to hvac man to tie everything to the unit and put the heat exchanger in, metal work ect. $600

Probably right around 8k after you figure in pex fittings and other odds and ends. I did all my on labor except for the hvac part.


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

Thanks, that's a pretty good break down. Did you do all the work and the Hvac guy just showed up and did the final tie-in? If I subtract the cost of your boiler that's way under the $4,600 quote I got. How much underground pipe did you buy?

Mine will be going into a crawl space under the house, I can't get a trencher under there. Do you think I'll have to dig a trench under my crawl space three feet deep? Or maybe a shallow trench then bring it up to the floor penetrator? Or with all that insulation on the lines can I just leave it exposed in the crawl space?


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

I know right now I've got snow on the ground up there in michigan but this guy isn't even trenching the line. And his quote doesn't include a cement pad for the boiler. His quote was just to lay the line on top of the ground until I could trench it in the spring. I just feel his quote is high for what he's actually going to do, I can't shake that feeling


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## DoubleB (Dec 30, 2016)

gramesj said:


> I'm paying this guy to do it at my moms house and I live down in louisiana. Other wise I'd do it myself. I'm renting the house out and I've found the gas bill is a little high for most renters. It's about $4,000 a year in heating, that's heating a 40 something year old house on a lake.



I'd ballpark that $4000 of natural gas is going to be at least a couple dozen full cords of firewood per winter in an outdoor boiler.  If I understand you correctly, you're trying to make your Mom's rental unit more attractive to potential renters by giving them the option of wood heat.  I'd be surprised if you find renters, even as yoopers, that would be more interested in your rental by the opportunity to find and feed that much wood.

If your heating bill is that high, the house probably has lots of opportunities to make it more efficient.  Have you considered spending that several thousand dollars in other ways (more insulation, weather sealing, a better LP or nat gas furnace, etc.)?


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## gramesj (Dec 30, 2016)

The gas furnace in there now is about 8 or 9 years old, it's an energy star one. I'm sure the house really needs some insulation issues fixed or weather sealing. If I actually lived there I could do more to fix it. My biggest problem is it is more than 1,200 miles away. And yeah I am definitely trying to make it more appealing to renters! The way I look at if I don't get that heating bill down somehow then I won't have a renter in the house. meaning that I'm paying the whole bill on that house. I inherited the house but I also inherited the mortgage to go with it.

the only good thing is the family about to move in the husband works in the woods and pretty much gets free wood


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## airlina (Dec 31, 2016)

I am a landlord with 2 cabin/house units  and from my experience with tenants in today's world, you will have a difficult time finding the right people to rent from you with wood heat. I have a wood boiler to heat my own house, and it has to be a passion to do all that is required to do it successfully. I have a hard enough time getting tenants to keep their grass cut or shovel the snow from the driveway , much less keeping a wood boiler or furnace going. There is important maintenance/cleaning etc to to do on woodburning systems that I can see not getting done with renters. I would never consider adding ANY kind of wood burning appliance to either of my rentals with this in mind. I think you'd be better off using the money you were going to put toward a wood burning system into tightening up the house with insulation, windows etc. gotta go load the boiler! Good luck


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## StihlKicking (Dec 31, 2016)

gramesj said:


> Thanks, that's a pretty good break down. Did you do all the work and the Hvac guy just showed up and did the final tie-in? If I subtract the cost of your boiler that's way under the $4,600 quote I got. How much underground pipe did you buy?
> 
> Mine will be going into a crawl space under the house, I can't get a trencher under there. Do you think I'll have to dig a trench under my crawl space three feet deep? Or maybe a shallow trench then bring it up to the floor penetrator? Or with all that insulation on the lines can I just leave it exposed in the crawl space?



Yes apart from the hvac tie in I did all the work myself. Poured the concrete, dug the trench, plumbed the boiler, ect.

I bought about 60 feet of underground pipe. It goes from the boiler to the house buried 3 feet deep. Once it enters my crawl space I switched over to the cheaper insulated pipe from badger pipe. It's the wrapped kind without the drain tile, it just lays on top of the ground in my crawl space for another 80 feet till it reaches the heat ex.

I know how everyone here feels about the wrapped pipe but in my crawl space I can't imagine it will ever be a problem for me. My crawl space is dry and a constant 65 degrees, so no need to bury it. Theres no way I would pay for logsol pipe if I was installing it unburied in a dry warm crawl space.


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## garmford (Dec 31, 2016)

Ever think of selling the house?


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## laynes69 (Dec 31, 2016)

I'm with the others about tightening up the home. While there's good tenants that burn wood, there's also alot of bad. With the cost currently to heat the home, it will translate into alot of wood. Of course we burn wood, but we only burn 3.5 to 5 cord a year depending on weather. I do however have friends with homes that need insulation/airsealing and they burn up to a cord a week in the wintertime. That's a full time job on top of their full time job. The other problem, if they decide it's too much work and let it go, it freezes and something busts, there's your investment. Get a blower door test done with an infrared camere and go from there. For 4,600 install plus 2,000 furnace, that would easily be enough money to tighten up that home. Not only would the heating bill be nice in the winter, but they will see comfort and reduced cost in the summertime. Trust me, I've seen the benefits of airsealing and insulation first hand with our old victorian.


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2016)

gramesj said:


> I know right now I've got snow on the ground up there in michigan but this guy isn't even trenching the line. And his quote doesn't include a cement pad for the boiler. His quote was just to lay the line on top of the ground until I could trench it in the spring. I just feel his quote is high for what he's actually going to do, I can't shake that feeling



I have that feeling too, for what he is (or isn't) doing. It would also be pretty tricky burying the pipe later, there would need to be quite a bit of extra pipe laid out now & the right length to avoid having to take it apart later & splice more in - and splicing is something else to be avoided if possible.

You're in a tight spot - if the renters decide to let the fire go out in the OWB because it's too much work, or if something comes up & they move out & there's nobody to keep it going, your investment is much at risk. Once you put one of these in & fill it up, the fire needs to be kept going all winter or it will freeze & bust. I don't think I would do this if I couldn't be there all winter to keep the fire going - a wood stove or wood furnace in the house, maybe.


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## gramesj (Dec 31, 2016)

StihlKicking said:


> Yes apart from the hvac tie in I did all the work myself. Poured the concrete, dug the trench, plumbed the boiler, ect.
> 
> I bought about 60 feet of underground pipe. It goes from the boiler to the house buried 3 feet deep. Once it enters my crawl space I switched over to the cheaper insulated pipe from badger pipe. It's the wrapped kind without the drain tile, it just lays on top of the ground in my crawl space for another 80 feet till it reaches the heat ex.
> 
> I know how everyone here feels about the wrapped pipe but in my crawl space I can't imagine it will ever be a problem for me. My crawl space is dry and a constant 65 degrees, so no need to bury it. Theres no way I would pay for logsol pipe if I was installing it unburied in a dry warm crawl space.




That's probably what I will do, once I get under the footing I will bring it up either shallow or on top of the ground.


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## gramesj (Dec 31, 2016)

maple1 said:


> I have that feeling too, for what he is (or isn't) doing. It would also be pretty tricky burying the pipe later, there would need to be quite a bit of extra pipe laid out now & the right length to avoid having to take it apart later & splice more in - and splicing is something else to be avoided if possible.
> 
> You're in a tight spot - if the renters decide to let the fire go out in the OWB because it's too much work, or if something comes up & they move out & there's nobody to keep it going, your investment is much at risk. Once you put one of these in & fill it up, the fire needs to be kept going all winter or it will freeze & bust. I don't think I would do this if I couldn't be there all winter to keep the fire going - a wood stove or wood furnace in the house, maybe.


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## warno (Dec 31, 2016)

I agree with the guys that said the quote was about right. I did every bit of install myself; buying parts, digging trench, setting boiler on pad, pouring pad, plumbing everything. The only outside help I paid for was a guy to help me install duct work in my garage and that was only $300. But with all the little parts you forget about once you start putting things in it adds up quick. I had about $3,500 in my install alone. I did have cost of concrete, insulation, and building materials that you may not have but that's what I paid.


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## gramesj (Dec 31, 2016)

He said that he would add extra length to be buried in the spring, and to do the hook up in spring would be extra charge in the spring.

A lot of people really don't like the idea of a wood stove on a rental. I under stand that they will need to keep the fire going, but from what I can figure out from all the reading is that if the boiler goes out it won't freeze as long as the circulation pump still works. And this makes sense to me since the gas furnace will be there to jump back in the game if the wood boiler stops or slows down. If the wood boiler stops getting fed wood as long as the water is circulated then the heat exchanger would just work in reverse, heating the wood boiler. So if the renters do not with to take the time to load the furnace then they can pay for the gas. Also until just 10 or 15 years ago a majority of people in the up use to burn wood in there indoor wood boiler, so most people prefer it over the cost of gas. It wasn't until insurance companies started bending people over if they even had a fire place in there home. 

I would love also to insulate the house better. I totally agree that this needs to be done and I'm going to look into that. One big project at a time. I am no where near rich so I have to pick my battles. But the renters moving in now, the husband works in the wood so he gets wood super cheap and has a couple boys to feed the stove. I talked to the wife about it and she knows and likes outdoor wood boilers.




Thanks for all the advice on renters guys I appreciate it, But what about my original question? How does that quote sound? High, low?


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## gramesj (Dec 31, 2016)

warno said:


> I agree with the guys that said the quote was about right. I did every bit of install myself; buying parts, digging trench, setting boiler on pad, pouring pad, plumbing everything. The only outside help I paid for was a guy to help me install duct work in my garage and that was only $300. But with all the little parts you forget about once you start putting things in it adds up quick. I had about $3,500 in my install alone. I did have cost of concrete, insulation, and building materials that you may not have but that's what I paid.




Thank you for the feed back on the quote, I needed that.  And this is what I keep seeing with what you guys paid for. You guys dug the ditch and laid cement pads and still came in way under $4,600.  I'm thinking for that price this thing should look real pretty when he's done and I shouldn't have to do a thing but throw some wood in. Am I wrong or right?

Oh and also I an a cheap SOB if that helps


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## warno (Dec 31, 2016)

gramesj said:


> He said that he would add extra length to be buried in the spring, and to do the hook up in spring would be extra charge in the spring.
> 
> A lot of people really don't like the idea of a wood stove on a rental. I under stand that they will need to keep the fire going, but from what I can figure out from all the reading is that if the boiler goes out it won't freeze as long as the circulation pump still works. And this makes sense to me since the gas furnace will be there to jump back in the game if the wood boiler stops or slows down. If the wood boiler stops getting fed wood as long as the water is circulated then the heat exchanger would just work in reverse, heating the wood boiler.
> 
> Thanks for all the advice on renters guys I appreciate it, But what about my original question? How does that quote sound? High, low?



I wouldn't go as far as saying it WON'T freeze if the circ stays running. It will be less likely but think about a waterfall freezing it takes alot but it happens. And in the the U.P. you definitely have cold enough temps to do the job. I would make sure at the very least the boiler water stays above 32 degrees and the circ running. So you might think about some type of prevention either a form of electrical element in the boiler or glycol in the system. If your renter simply refuses to build a fire ever I garrantee in a U.P. winters time you will have issues.

I would say your original quote, assuming the guy does a good job,  is on point.


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## gramesj (Dec 31, 2016)

warno said:


> I wouldn't go as far as saying it WON'T freeze if the circ stays running. It will be less likely but think about a waterfall freezing it takes alot but it happens. And in the the U.P. you definitely have cold enough temps to do the job. I would make sure at the very least the boiler water stays above 32 degrees and the circ running. So you might think about some type of prevention either a form of electrical element in the boiler or glycol in the system. If your renter simply refuses to build a fire ever I garrantee in a U.P. winters time you will have issues.
> 
> I would say your original quote, assuming the guy does a good job,  is on point.




That's not a bad idea. I could buy a block heater like for a diesel and just weld a threaded fitting on the water jacket.


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## salecker (Dec 31, 2016)

Seeing you are renting out the house.....
I would not be expecting tenets to use an old wood heater.
First the old wood heater probably is of questionable quality,to add to that you are looking at questionable under ground lines,
Are you willing to have a HVAC guy come and trouble shoot your heater when the tenets call and say they can't get heat out of the heater,then are you willing to spend the extra money to replace the used heater when it craps out in a year or two.This is after the tenets have called you 20 times in the middle of the night because they are cold,heater has sprung a leak,heater is full of creosote because the free wood happens to be green,but it's free.
You have to look at it this way,are you willing to walk away from the price of the used heater,bad piping,expensive installation,and multiple service calls.Just to do it all over again with quality components that you should have bought in the first place. If the answer is yes then go for it.Otherwise really think this through especially if you can't go trouble shoot the system yourself from you home,because the rental is to far away.
Thomas


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## garmford (Dec 31, 2016)

I would think that running the circ pump would work if you're gone for a long weekend and can't load the boiler for a day or two but anything more than that would put a strain on the gas furnace. Even if the water cools down to 50* your HX is going to act like a air conditioning coils. It's going to rob the btu's from the forced air furnace and you'll be buying a lot more gas to run that. I think the block heater is an ok idea if you lived there, then you would be sure that it was always working. Though glycol is more expensive, it's cheap insurance in case your renter decides that it's too much work dealing with the boiler and let's it freeze up on you. It sounds like your new renter will be reliable and diligent to run and maintain the boiler but how's the next one going to be? I would spend that money on new windows and insulation and use the gas furnace. Just my $.02.


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## warno (Dec 31, 2016)

salecker said:


> Seeing you are renting out the house.....
> I would not be expecting tenets to use an old wood heater.
> First the old wood heater probably is of questionable quality,to add to that you are looking at questionable under ground lines,
> Are you willing to have a HVAC guy come and trouble shoot your heater when the tenets call and say they can't get heat out of the heater,then are you willing to spend the extra money to replace the used heater when it craps out in a year or two.This is after the tenets have called you 20 times in the middle of the night because they are cold,heater has sprung a leak,heater is full of creosote because the free wood happens to be green,but it's free.
> ...



This is all good info and things to think about for sure. 

I forgot to say also, I cannot stress enough that you need to use a good quality underground line. The bubble wrap crap will be sure to let you down as it has many many people on this site.


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## gramesj (Jan 1, 2017)

warno said:


> I agree with the guys that said the quote was about right. I did every bit of install myself; buying parts, digging trench, setting boiler on pad, pouring pad, plumbing everything. The only outside help I paid for was a guy to help me install duct work in my garage and that was only $300. But with all the little parts you forget about once you start putting things in it adds up quick. I had about $3,500 in my install alone. I did have cost of concrete, insulation, and building materials that you may not have but that's what I paid.




I appreciate the cost break down. I was more worried that because I was out of state the guy thought I was loaded with money and just trying to take advantage of me. But from what everyone has said it sounds like the quote is good. I called the guy today to tell him to go ahead with the install. It's going to be some logistics before I get to him. 

Next year will be all the insulation and air sealing.


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## Dutchie84 (Jan 3, 2017)

As a landlord, good luck!


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## salecker (Jan 5, 2017)

Dutchie84 said:


> As a landlord, good luck!


What he said X2
just out of morbid curiosity,what make is the used water heater?


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## Bad LP (Jan 5, 2017)

This for sure.


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