# New York Outdoor Wood Boiler regulations



## altheating (Mar 20, 2008)

Eric, I stumbled across these links the other day. The first is a link announcing New York State DEC Regulatory Agenda,  http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/36816.html  Part way down the page look for, 6 NYCRR Part 247, Outdoor Wood-Fired Hydronic Heaters. This is the new proposed legislation for OWB’s in New York State. I spoke to a guy at DEC who stated that the rulemaking will start as soon as April 1st, 2008. This link, http://www.lungnh.org/site/c.cnKFITNsEkG/b.3794751/  is a link to the American Lung Association of New Hampshire’s web page. The page links to the actual NYS NYCRR Part 247 Outdoor Wood Boiler regulation draft. http://www.lungnh.org/atf/cf/{CC909354-D6C7-4B79-859A-768B92C749BD}/NYPart 247.pdf

Page #12 of the draft. 
“Section 247-3.2 Prohibitions.
(a) No person may operate an existing outdoor wood boiler that does not meet the requirements set
forth in this Subpart. Section 247-3.3 Setback and Stack Height Requirements.
(a) Stack height requirement. An existing outdoor wood boiler must be equipped with a permanent
stack extending a minimum of eighteen (18) feet above ground level effective October 1, 2008.
(b) Setback requirement. An existing outdoor wood boiler that does not meet the requirements set
forth in Section 247-2.2(a) or Section 247-2.3(a) of this Part which is sited less than 500 feet from the nearest
property line must be removed or rendered inoperable by September 30, 2010.”
For those who think their Outdoor Wood Boiler will be “Grandfathered In” here in New York State, think again!


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## Nofossil (Mar 20, 2008)

The 500 foot setback is pretty dramatic. I wonder how many boilers meet that now - I'll bet it's close to zero. Here in Vermont it's a big cost increment to locate your house more than 200' from the nearest utility pole, so most houses are within 200' of the road. You'd have to locate your boiler another 300' beyond that, and have a lot that's more than 1000' square - I think that puts you somewhere near 25 acres minimum lot size to have an OWB.

But they're not banning them altogether.......

Is a gasifier in an outbuilding considered an OWB under this regulation?


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## altheating (Mar 20, 2008)

Yes they are considered a outdoor boiler. According to NYS any boiler in a building not normally occupied, which heats an adjacent building is considered an OWB.


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## Telco (Mar 21, 2008)

Sounds nasty.  Sounds like you folks in New York need to start voting people out of office, or start running your own folks for office.  That's the only way you'd be able to force a change back.  Your local EPA folks would have to rescind that ruling if you could force laws through that made such requirements illegal, but it'll be a tough battle to fight.

Based on this though, since I want to use wood heat as a backup heating source for a solar hydronic with large storage I think I'll have to redo my design to plan for possible future hostile regulations.  Seems to me that if you were to build a small brick shed on the main house, then put a heavily insulated fire rated door leading to the interior, that the wood stove would no longer be an OUTDOOR wood stove, and these regs would no longer apply.  You could still use it as an outdoor stove, and access it from outside the house with a second door,  but with a door on the inside they could not say it was not an outdoor stove anymore.  You'd just need to make it large enough to walk from the inside of the house to the outside through the burn room.  Make it a bit larger, and you could store a cord of wood in there too.  I'd just make sure to seal it well to keep spiders living in the wood from being able to get into the house.  Executed properly, and it might even be more attractive than an exterior shed.


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## altheating (Mar 21, 2008)

The outdoor boiler must be listed for indoor installations. You simply can not put a outdoor wood boiler indoors. They got ya on the codes.


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## webbie (Mar 21, 2008)

The industry brought this stuff upon itself. They lied and continue to do so in order to maximize profits. For business to thrive in the long run, honesty and being a PART of the community is necessary. 

These things would have never hit the radar screen if the industry had made an early and continuous effort to police themselves and be good neighbors. So when the axe comes down, we (or they) only have themselves to blame. 

Meantime, I'm not crying yet about the many millions being made by folks who found a loophole in the regulations that cover BOTH boilers and outdoor burning.


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## bbb123 (Mar 21, 2008)

No smoking cigarettes or wood in NY. The stack req. would help alot the 500' from border is gonna be tough like nofossil said. In my town you need 200' road frontage, 2 acres, and 100' from borders for home building. I can't wait till DEC has to go give someone a ticket for an OWB there's gonna be a riot. There are not any OWB bothering me (course I have few close neighbors) but my aunt lives next to one and if I was her I would not be happy. She claims she likes the smoke smell I agree but when I drive by and can't see the house that's a little ridiculous.


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## leaddog (Mar 21, 2008)

altheating said:
			
		

> The outdoor boiler must be listed for indoor installations. You simply can not put a outdoor wood boiler indoors. They got ya on the codes.



Thats why all the neat stuff over in Europe isn't available here. There standards are as strict or more so but because of the hodgepodge restrictions of all the locals,states, federal gov, and our trial lawers they don't feel that it is profitable to do bussiness here. I'm all for buying American but if we don't get some of the competition from over seas we will still be puting smoke dragens in the basement. We need to get away from making standards to protect companys and use standards that promote standards to protect people and be flexable and use other countries standards also. Look how long it took to beable to use pvc and pex pipe here in the US. It wasn't to protect people it was to protect the Pifefitters. The heating people are the main ones fighting the fight against OWB along with the oil and propane co.'s Here in Michigan you can't hardly find a dealer to sell a propane tank as they all want to make you lease as they can make you pay THEIR price then. When oil,propane, elect, and NG gets up there then sudenly bio-mass will become the GOOD fuel. All the polititions will be climbing on the band wagon and saying how they were for bio-mass, wind, and solar all along.
Here in West Michigan they are putting a big elect. generation plant in on a dairy farm using manure and making a HUGE deal over it. It is Austrian teknowledge in partnership with GVSU but it probably won't be duplicated here again because of the stupid laws here that won't let them sell the elect to the electical co. at a profit. Money,Money,Money talks not the good of the people or nation.
leaddog


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## SnowTraveler (Mar 21, 2008)

shorty, you didn't mention our taxes.  Try running a small business in this state, holy crap.  Now they want to ban outdoor burning, even in rural areas.
Got a pile of brush? Don't burn it, you may get arrested.


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## altheating (Mar 21, 2008)

Yup, I see that law was passed too. Looks like if you are not holding a hot dog ready to be cooked, you better not light a fire! That's it, it aint a outdoor wood boiler, it's a cook stove and you are using the residual heat to heat your house. It's lunch time, time to put a log onto the cook stove.


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## webbie (Mar 21, 2008)

Hey, there is some land in Idaho right near T_Monter for sale.......get a few hundred acres and you probably will have it made.

But when you live in a state that has 20 million people in it (or more?), there are going to be problems. 

BTW, you can't use BBQ's in quite a few air districts and other places also!

Outdoor burning (not boilers) has been regulated in most places - which I think is good all in all. They have certain days or you can get a permit and do it, but if we had a bunch of folks with bonfires each day we'd be choking pretty good. 

Again, in a world with 6 billion (and growing), we certainly are not going to say "anything goes". On the other hand, I think if the OWB manufacturers and dealers had started out educating customers and improving their product from day one, they would not be bringing things down on themselves. Most people agree that the when you start affecting other people is the "line" when personal freedom stops. Sure, it is always a question of "how much" did you affect them, but again these new regs were not created because the government had nothing else to do.....there are LOTS of citizens who have complained. 

A better course of action would have been for the makers and the Fed EPA to come up with relatively lax, but effective standard on cleanliness...and make it mandatory instead of voluntary. But it has not been done. Our system of government allows you to address grievances at various levels, and that is what has been done here. 

Now don't shoot the messenger....I personally have never got involved except to tell our trade group government liaison what I said above - that WE have to fix it or someone else was going to do it for us. 

We don't live in the wild west anymore...at least in New England and NY State. I suppose you could go to WV and get away with it for longer.

BTW, a mile is 5200+ feet. 500 feet is less than 1/10 of a mile. Consider it "one block" or so.

I guess the big question is always "who are "they?". "They" want to ban this, they want to do that. I would say that "they" are the majority of the people. If you sat each and every NY state resident down and carefully educated them about the issue, I would guess that most would come down on the side of less pollution, even if it meant restrictions on open burning. So we do get the government we deserve, and that is "freedom". Freedom does not mean the ability to do whatever you want.


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## JustWood (Mar 21, 2008)

ADOLPH SPITZER and his GESTAPO cronie commissioner of DEC (dept. of environmental cockamamie)  PETER GRANNIS.  GWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA   what a joke  !


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## webbie (Mar 21, 2008)

C'mon, Lee, let's keep the threads informative so we don't have to rant back and forth and move everything to the Can! If you have something to add, do it in a way that a non-pol might understand.


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## JustWood (Mar 21, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> C'mon, Lee, let's keep the threads informative so we don't have to rant back and forth and move everything to the Can! If you have something to add, do it in a way that a non-pol might understand.



My opinion of NYS and it's  judicial system and DEC has been formed by many experiences with both. Not one of them has been a good experience although they all turned out in my favor. I've spent alot of time jumping through hoops and in court to prove these idiots wrong and feel it's been a waste of my valuable time ,which there is very little of.  And never compensated for even though I was proven innocent in a court of law.

  These laws are for the betterment of society and air quality , I understand that.  But all it takes is some whiner going to extremes and a gestapo DEC cop looking to make a name for himself . An OWB owner or maybe even an EPA stove owner will have his hands full defending himself. It's just not right considering the alternative (fossil fuels). Every individual burning wood has a responsibility to  not invade their neighbors air space.  Minimum chimney height on OWBs is a must but not grand father in a unit under the minimum distance. That's B.S.

 With these new laws on the books, whats next ?    EPA approved stoves not good enough and they must be removed for something "new and improved". It's coming down the pike (or should I say the pipeline) , we will be right back to filling the pockets of the oil companies.


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## webbie (Mar 21, 2008)

Ah, now I understand and am becoming more convinced!
(no kidding)

Somehow I always give a well explained POV a bit more credence. 

BTW, it should be noted (for historys sake) that NY State is the case that caused the EPA to regulate regular wood stoves. Just FYI.


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 21, 2008)

I wouldn't get too worked up about NYS regs. Presumably our state and my county has laws against this kind of installation (on a business, no less), but I don't see any of the evildoers on the state payroll trying to enforce any of our many rules/laws against this bar, which is right along the state highway, and has been for at least the past 30 years.

And yes, that single-wall stove pipe "chimney" is hooked up to the primary heat source for this bar. I think I've even seen it glow red on one or more occasion.


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 21, 2008)

Here's another one--right in town. They just spent a small fortune putting new, log siding on this building, but the "chimney" remains the same.


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## leaddog (Mar 21, 2008)

I read somewhere here in a post from heaterman that in Michigan it is against the law to hook up your own water heater. Maybe this is why the US has more people in jail per capita than any other major country. Stupid laws that are not thought out and don't serve the purpose they were designed to do. When one of the townships here was putting in a ban on OWB I went with informative info about gasification boilers and presented it and there responce was. THERE IS NO WAY TO DIFFERENCIATE BETWEEN AN OWB AND A GASIFICATION ONE. THEY ALL TURN WOOD TO A GAS TO BURN. SO BAN THEM ALL. Of course one of the members owns a heating business and Hates all wood burners. He wants to ban woodburning inside houses also. I'm not against passing reasonable laws but they need to look at what is good in the long haul. Is burning more coal better on the air and at what cost. How about nuclear, Is that safe? What about global warming and how is that effected. Not that the farmers need more money for corn, or I own a heating bussiness, or we have lots of coal and it will help out so and so, or lets make gas, propane, NG higher and we can make more money. Just fly over the country some fall and see all the farm residue being burnt, and drive around and look at the side of the road in the woodlots and look at all the waste wood rotting. Like it or not that is putting polution into the air. How about the landfills putting so much methane into the air they have to put tubes into the ground and and light it. Stupid. Or how about making it a law that no mammal can pass gas as there is a HUGE amount of methane gas being put into the atmospere by all the cows, pigs, and chickens that we eat  and after we eat them we add to it.
They are having a big fight here in Michigan about windmills. The elect. co. don't want to buy the energy they want to build more coal plants. The big coal states are supporting them. And I heard that wind mills would be very efficiant off the East Coast but the people (Kennedy"s and other rich property owners) don't like the looks of them. 
The story here is that laws are not passed for the good of the people they are passed for the good of the power people. 
WE the owners of gasification boilers need to let our voices be heard now before they are passed because once they are it is HARD to change them.


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## JustWood (Mar 21, 2008)

Just like most other laws they will let most people slide untill there is a complaint then look out,   guilty untill proven innocent.


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## JustWood (Mar 21, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Ah, now I understand and am becoming more convinced!
> (no kidding)
> 
> Somehow I always give a well explained POV a bit more credence.
> ...




 Sometimes my brain has to vent but my fingers don't feel like  splainin'  !


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## Telco (Mar 22, 2008)

There are two forces that drive laws in this nation, and that is the squeaky wheel and the fat pocket.  In my own neighborhood I had to put the clamp down on a squeaky wheel at an HOA meeting.  She (my next door neighbor) was just starting a tirade about "When are we going to make the people with antennas take them down?"  She apparently doesn't like my TV antenna, which is on my house between hers and mine.  Before she could get into full vent mode I announced very loudly that I could answer that question, and proceeded to start going over the Telecommunications Act of 1996, and how the FCC has been known to fine HOAs thousands of dollars PER DAY for harassing antenna owners because that act specifically states that it is illegal for any entity, public or private, to have rules that affect TV antennas.  They can have placement rules, so long as they don't cause a financial hardship for the owner or affect TV signal quality.  The only exceptions to this is old, historic value neighborhoods.  After my own tirade, I announced that should I receive a notice from the HOA about my antenna, the FCC and my lawyer would have a copy of it the day I received it, and a suit would be filed against the HOA.  I've not heard a word about it since.  I've also noticed in my walks that a lot more antennas have gone up in the neighborhood, including satellite antennas.

The only way you are going to be able to get those laws changed/cancelled is to become the squeaky wheel.  Get your local TV stations to do stories about the advantages of wood burning.  Paper your representative's offices with complaint letters, petitions, ect, and demand the laws be changed.  Go for flat out no regulations at first, and use things like gasifier style only or periodic inspections as negotiating points.  Freedom requires effort and sometimes blood, and it's only for the complacent that freedom actually disappears.  Once again, find and run candidates with your own interests and get them into office.  Work on their campaigns, donate money, ect.  Get people with your views into office, and the laws can be changed, but changing them with the people in office that passed them is near impossible mainly because it requires them to admit to being wrong.


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## Chris S (Mar 22, 2008)

What about those of us who are going to have to put up these large chimney extensions?  Is that where we should mount our attennas?  (TIC)


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## webbie (Mar 22, 2008)

No, the antennas will provide an extra wind load and the things will blow over 
(especially yesterday - 60MPH gust recorded nearby)


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

Within your rights to send whatever to whomever in government, but it is sort of sad that you have to relate Spitzers problems to your cause.

THINK a little bit. Could just some of the backlash against OWB come from your neighbors? I will answer that - YES. It is for certain. Hundreds of complaint have been filed by people like you and me...yes, people living in VT, upstate NY and elsewhere. 

I don't have a real dog in this fight, but the writing is on the wall. Clean up the OWB act, prove it, and I'm certain some exemption can be made in the eventual state or local regs. But open burning with no pollution controls will end. That is, of course, my opinion......

It is important to see both sides of the issue - and there are two sides. You are playing right into the hands of the people at Burning Issues and other anti-wood burning sites. Should you be able to put your outhouse above the creek like our forefathers did? Should you be able to pour your motor oil in the ditch (where the water runs into the lake)?

I am in support of your right to burn wood. I am not in support of your right to disturb your neighbor(s). 

I feel for the tough times in Upstate NY.  But in our country, your neighbor...whether part time or full time, has exactly the same rights as you to breathe air free of pollutants. You can't have it both ways. 

It would be better, IMHO, to come up with a reasonable alternative to their legislation which exempts EPA certified OWB, Pellet and corn models, and perhaps certain people with enough setback and acreage - and decent chimneys, provided they get a permit and are given some "learn how to burn" materials with the permit.

Lobbying for increased pollution and reduction of air quality is going to be a tough number in this "green" age.


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## trailhound68 (Mar 23, 2008)

Great job keeping yourself and now us aware of these legislators are up to. We have similar restrictions on OWB's in CT. Some towns have outlawed them outright. That's one reason I bought an indoor boiler, the other is the proximity to my neighbors. 
Let's not forget that the revenue states receive from fossil fuels are directly related to the cost.  At least in CT.
My main point is that many of the people in government don't want you to be self reliant. Their kneejerk reaction is to BAN any product or activity they have no control over.


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## catskills (Mar 23, 2008)

Guten Tag!!  I sink I vill start making boots to send to Albany. I vill make zee jack boots!! I'm a little confused here. If I buy a gasifier -that's a no no with the thugs in Albany???


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

shultesm49 said:
			
		

> I know Ms. Enck, the NYS Commissioner for the Environment. She burns wood at her home! Inside where she can burn her house down and cause firemen to lose their lives responding to her house fire. Grannis hates everything that is truly environmental. He is a preservationist. He does not want a deer or turkey shot or a tree farmed. Tie these folks to Eliot? You bet. He appointed them! He came out with the 2005 propaganda report "Smoke gets in your Lungs" that was later debunked. Playing into hands? No, sticking up for my rights. I don't support towel heads. I won't buy their oil and pollute the atmosphere with it. I will make sure my neighbors are not bothered by smoke. Probably the reason why they have both installed the same furnace that I use.
> 
> Regulations that are sensible should be put into place, for wood, oil, propane, etc. We have enough laws to stop pollution. Now the regulators are stepping in and trying to force us to buy oil. Not me. Not happening. I do appreciate your perspective.



Heck, if you are trying to be sensible you will drop the talk about indoor wood stoves, pellet stove or central heating burning houses down. A properly and safely installed wood burner, NOT an outdoor wood burner, is exactly what your "forefathers" had. So keep it nice and consistent.

You are not going to make a point by attacking the millions of smart wood burners who have "indoor" stoves any more than attacking all those indoor toilets which are spreading filth into our living areas.

As to "towel heads", neither Canadians nor Mexicans....or even Russians or MANY other of our oil partners and American oil companies wear towels on their heads. That is pure and simple racism and scapegoating and will once again IMHO hurt your cause. Why not simply stick to the facts? Certainly you are aware that most of our oil comes from these countries and our own?  It is better to keep cool heads on all sides. After all, you would not want them classifying you as toothless illiterates living in double wides, would you?

Keep it civil - that's my humble opinion. Recognize that there is a valid reason behind others motives. There is not a plot. There are simply people who want to make certain of clean air. Maybe the pendulum swings too far in one direction and then in the other, but remember that OWB users have been burning stumps, tires and trash as well as green wood for years. So what do you expect?

Again, I have made my living in the stove and central heater industry for 30 years - so I am most definitely on the side of renewable and alternative fuels. However, I am also on the side of being reasonable and understanding that living together requires compromise.


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 23, 2008)

We've been saying for years on this board that OWBs have been sowing the seeds of their own demise. Why does everybody seem so shocked when one of the most regulated states in the country decides to regulate them? It's not like we were all blindsided.

And my opinion, for what it's worth, is that you won't have cleaner-burning central heating appliances until they're required by law. It's a lot like what happed to woodstoves--just three decades late.

As a practical matter, I'm guessing that nobody who currently owns an OWB in NYS is going to have a legal problem unless they're creating a smoke problem. And I think that most of us would agree that that's as it should be.


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

Once again, do you know that the main suppliers of oil to the USA are:

1. The USA itself (Alaska)
2. Canada (#1)
3. Mexico

After that you have the saudis, nigeria, venezuela and then the lesser players.....Last time I looked that means only one of the top 6 is even in the middle east, and that one is the one our president kisses and dances with. 

Best of luck to you also. But if you are just going to distort facts and yell at straw men, you will be unlikely to achieve your goal. In fact, you will find reasonable people opposing you.

BTW, not sure if you are aware of this, but I did start and do run this site (surely you see my signature!) - and we do try to keep things civil here. If you are trying to rally the troops here, you have probably picked the wrong place. We like a reasoned and well thought out point of view - and are certainly biased IN FAVOR OF wood burning. At the same time, we try to take as "green" of a point of view as possible. If you intend to bad mouth indoor stoves in an effort to promote your product, you are definitely talking to the wrong crowd. 

Again, said with all due respect, but we are simply not gonna bite at your attack on "indoor stoves"....


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

Can anyone hazard a guess as to what percentage of OWB's in the field have catalytics or pass EPA new regs? My guess is that it is not 1/10 of 1% - and that is probably figuring high. So the law cannot address something that does not exist! The legislators have to be educated as to the new voluntary standards and also to the corn and pellet appliances. I feel confident that such an effort would result in the exclusion of clean burning products from any future regs.

It is typical for technical committees consisting of industry members, lab techs and R&D;folks to take part in the final draft(s) of such regulations.....at least in the case of the EPA this is what is done. These committees look at BAT (Best Available Technology) and use that as goal which to attain over a period of time. Most of these regs will take into account those units already in the field and in production and distribution - they know they cannot change things on a moments notice. 

So I hope cool heads can prevail and that real people with real facts can sit down and hash out the best possible solution for everyone involved.


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

Well, being as I have been in the industry for 30 years and also sold central heating systems nationwide - and i don't know about cat converters in OWB....I think it might be safe to assume that the folks in Albany are not too educated in them either. 

We certainly have a LOT of points of view that vary from mine. I agree that an outdoor toaster or electric clock or an outdoor oven or TV or anything that is located outside the house is less likely to burn your house down. But, again, that is a straw man. The same logic would say we should live outside because if we do that, our house will be in less danger.

I am merely suggesting that you get a less reactionary and intelligent defense together and rally people around that. Straight talk is fine, although towel head stuff starts to go over the edge. Name calling is not going to get us anywhere. You can make the case for reducing dependence on foreign oil without resorting to extremes. 

I think if you take my opinion as a suggestion on how you might gather more people to your side, it could be of benefit. But, then again, I cannot force you to do so and would not want to. However, keep in mind that "experts" like myself and other here can swing a lot of weight when we get behind a cause. Folks like Eric, the moderator in this room, live in NY State and also are publishers and editors with tens of thousand of readers. So although you may look at it as a compromise, you will greatly benefit by building a coalition of partners in your cause - and dumping on indoor stoves is likely to lose you 80% of partners before you start. Calling your opposition nazis will lose you even more.

Again, not meant personal....my intent is to help you and the industry. That's what this board and site are all about. But you have to want the help.


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## JustWood (Mar 23, 2008)

I could jump in here and ..............................            NAAAAA  !!   Nevermind,  there's not enough time in my day !!     Politicians born and raised in NYC have NO interest in how their legislation affects the Southern Tier or Upstate New York.  Areas that are historic for low pay jobs or none at all and high taxes .  A country boy will survive !


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

Ok, short and sweet- what are you asking these legislators for? The so-called Elevator Pitch (10 seconds to make the case).

Also, is the lady from Broome county still the one sponsoring this? She is not exactly NYC. I just wrote her a note on her web site offering my services or advice (for free). I warned her not to thrown the baby out with the bath water.

I just did a little snooping around and read some comments from the people who are complaining about these things...it does break my heart. Yes, some are in more crowded areas, but the OWB are fully legal there. One lady has exhausted all her options and prays to the lord every day since her life is miserable. Another guy, a disabled vet, has the smoke detectors in his house going off because of his neighbors OWB.

As I said before, the pendulum swings both ways. If these were sold only to people with 10 acres or more and those folks burned responsibly, we probably would not even be talking about this issue now. But neither of those things happened, and people complained. BTW, I'm sure you know that people in your own industry (central heat wood) have intensely lobbied the state(s) and federal governments to ban OWB. Yes, I had one manufacturer of wood furnaces send me all kinds of PDFs and ask me to go to bat for him.....that was years ago. 

Point is, this is not just some city dude from NYC. This is a coalition of a LOT of people, many of whom are "right" and have a leg to stand on. Best to know what you are up against, and come up with solutions that they can't deny.


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

I must admit that I don't have much experience with pols...and don't intend to.

Yes, I do know that power ONLY respects power. Still, there are actual people just like you lobbying the other side of the issue and they have power also. Sometimes it can work to take the wind out of their sails. 

But I suspect you know as much about hardball as I know about stoves, and that is quite a lot. My wife was in politics and I advised her the best course of action "when your opponent is down, that is the best time to keep stomping on them, because they may just eventually get up"

hardball
 :coolgrin:


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## webbie (Mar 23, 2008)

The PM button sends a private message and you can also email people once you go to their profile - both are under the avatar.

I think the concept of not lumping them together is a good one. In my note to the Senator I made reference to the new NEWP (pellet)  plant outside of Albany, which they know is adding to the economy......and made sure that they knew that OWB using pellets or corn are different. I also informed them about EPA voluntary OWB and about other clean burning. 

As an outsider, I suspect they don't want to get involved with opacity and stuff like that. Working with each individual unit is just too much to ask for the local or state governments. I would rather see them:
1. Exempt all pellet and corn OWB
2. Exempt all EPA voluntary OWB
3. Exempt all approved indoor boilers when used as OWB (as in a shed, etc.)
4. Exempt units with fireboxes UNDER a certain size
5. Allow petition for approval or exemption of certain units when evidence from a certified test lab (independent) can be proven. Although they may default back to the voluntary EPA standard, which should not be hard for a properly sized cat unit, etc. to pass.

After that, I concur with most of your other points. Come up with setbacks for existing. Allow a 8+ year phase out for those which exist and do not pass, with the exception of those where complaints are lodged. 

I don't see it as a partisan issue at all. I know back to the landers who run anywhere from radical leftist hippie to attilla the hun "free men". 

At the end of the day, you live in a state with 20 million people in it. Vast areas are state parks, meaning the population is mostly in relatively dense areas...even the rural population. 

As I said before, if your suggestions and others (education, natural wood, no summer burning) were voluntarily promoted since the start, we probably would not have the hammer coming down as hard.

No problem with your passion. That's what it takes to git 'er done.


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## JustWood (Mar 24, 2008)

Atilla the hun "free men" !?????    hmmmmmmmmmmmm .        Nope ,not gonna go there.


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## webbie (Mar 24, 2008)

YOu know, lees - it's like a saying "to the right of Attlia the Hun".......descriptive, isn't it? No one ever asked my to clarify a statement like that, so it must work. Although I have to embellish the hippie one to match. 

How about "granola-eating, wife beating, smelly dirty leftist radical hippie". I do know some, although that description would take a few together to match.


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## webbie (Mar 24, 2008)

Heck, I'd vote for Elliot NOW and I don't even live in NY. It always depends upon the other choice, but I like a tough guy. As you so well mention, that is what is needed in politics. So we can't have it both ways.

I hope the regs end up with more consideration of where things actually are - and where they are going. As far as indoor boilers, we had the Tarm tested many years ago (I was the US Importer) and it ended up being at about 2 grams per hour using EPA methods, which is well under what the new EPA voluntary outdoor standards are. These same Tarm, EKO and other boilers pass very strict tests in Sweden, Germany and other areas with tough (and well thought out) clean air regs. If anything, this has resulted in an INCREASE in sales, because the end user likes to be environmental and efficient.

After all is said and done and things get sorted out, the result will be cleaner air, less complaints and more efficiency for the end user.......hopefully. But sometimes things can get ugly on the way there.


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## catskills (Mar 24, 2008)

.........the population is dense even in rural areas???? My Lord,  the population of Delaware County is about the same as in 1850 The "dense" areas seem to be mostly in Albany.


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## webbie (Mar 24, 2008)

I mean relatively dense. Orange, Rockland county, Albany area - and the population seems to follow the interstates quite heavily. Granted, it is not NYC, but political power depends on population and economic might - not on the number of acres owned. 

BTW, just for interest...... NY State is the #1 state in the USA for readers of Hearth.com! I can even see exactly where each of these readers live (in general).

Map enclosed shows hearth.com visitors from NY.

Notice the clustering of readers along the interstates - up and over.


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## steam man (Mar 24, 2008)

"BTW, just for interest...... NY State is the #1 state in the USA for readers of Hearth.com! I can even see exactly where each of these readers live (in general)."

How do you think it looks on a state by state per-capita basis? Kind of evens the playing field. LOL


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## webbie (Mar 24, 2008)

Sure, VT and Maine would probably win on that one. I'll take a look. The stats program does not sort it out that way. It only cares about numbers.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 25, 2008)

I just read through the NYS draft COMPLETELY, and found nothing alarming about it.  It may increase the ultimate cost to us, due to increased testing, but it plainly says to burn CLEAN wood only, and the setbacks for new boilers (outdoor) are only 100 to 150 feet.   Furthermore, it looks like it only singles out boilers that are not certified to be used in the primary residence.  So, any boilers with indoor certification (which also happen to be gassifiers for the most part), should pass with flying colors and be of no issue.  There are way too many wood burners in NYS for any total ban to take place.  I think it'll be easy to spot those who don't clean up their act, though.

Chris


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## webbie (Mar 25, 2008)

Ah, I guess that is why you are from Candor, NY instead of a place like Slick, NY


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## heaterman (Mar 25, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> YOu know, lees - it's like a saying "to the right of Attlia the Hun".......descriptive, isn't it? No one ever asked my to clarify a statement like that, so it must work. Although I have to embellish the hippie one to match.
> 
> How about "granola-eating, wife beating, smelly dirty leftist radical hippie". I do know some, although that description would take a few together to match.



Craig.   "Pinko Commie Bedwetter" or PCB has always worked for me.

Try it sometime 

I like the "to the right of Attila the Hun". I'll have to remember that for use at the appropriate time.


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## webbie (Mar 25, 2008)

Calm down, buddy - cannot imagine why you think Slick, NY is a reference to you - I was just being jive with his Candor Location......

Only you know if you are slick, buddy, but at the same time attacking the host is not good business - or politics! Myself and a number of others have a little tiny button which can open a trap door and send all your hard-earned writing and efforts to the REAL cyberspace....so

be nice

please


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## webbie (Mar 25, 2008)

See, I learn something new every day...have to change my Ma. location now.


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## webbie (Mar 25, 2008)

BTW, for folks that want an overview of the history - this article from Adirondack Life provides a relatively local point of view.....
http://tinyurl.com/37689e


Here is Vermont Government site and pages on their OWB regs
http://www.vtwoodsmoke.org/

That site also contains links to most OWB regs around the NE and even the country.....


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## JustWood (Mar 25, 2008)

shultesm49 said:
			
		

> Hmmmmmmmmm, 500' from the road. Seems to me that is not 100 or a 150'. NY farm bureau does not like that so much. The Catskill Forestry Association is concerned with this reg because their advocacy of owb. NYS volunteer firefighters association is now actively looking into the regs with concern. Go read 247 in its entirety and you will find that the DEC is intending to use Method 9 opacity readings for ALL wood burning appliances. Guess what the limit is that they want to impose! 10%. Other then gassifiers, none of the existing EPA indoor furnaces will pass that test! I do speak with authority on that matter. We have sent a representative to be certified in Method 9 to the same opacity school that the fine folks send their officers to. That is why we turned them away in the town of Coeymans a year ago. One of their fine officers put in a bad report to back his buddy who had a personal grudge against an owb user. In order to "legitimize" their grudge they went out and tried to close down several other owb. At a meeting with the DEC lawyers and a lawyer for the owners the DEC lawyer made it clear that they would be coming against ANY appliance that failed an opacity test of more then 10%. You guys are not close to this, you have not dealt with these people, and you are going to get....burned. You have opinions and I respect that. I'm not here to argue with you. I'm telling you of first hand experience. I listed my phone number for you folks to call me if you would like! I'll give you the name of the lawyer involved, the gentleman that the DEC tried to rake over the coals, and any other information you would like. They will verify this information folks. Mr. Web "owner" your site is working nicely for me. Folks are calling. Emails are coming in. I will post an update after meeting with Senator Breslin tomorrow. By the way, is Slick NY on the border with Moron Mass??
> lick NY thing is a shot at meHowever, you might not due to those of us that are working together to keep these politicos at bay. You can thank us later. Perhaps.










 The """" new and improved """"  DEC under Grannis rule is like a Nazi tank. I live as far away from NYC as you can get but still in NYS and we have new officers freshly imported from guess where (NYC) running around with snot dripping down their nose and diaper dragging on the ground. These guys are pissin' alot of locals off with their city mentality and multiple citation writing ability. It's like the gestapo just marched into town. The locals used to have a rappport with the previously established officers and things were good. I'm not saying "out here we are above the law" but it is a different world and common sense needs to prevail. These guys are writing tickets and letting the courts sort it out . This is B.S.  I don't even own an OWB so it's not like I'm fighting for a cause. I just know how DEC operates and it won't be pretty (for ANY wood burner ) if these laws are enforced. It will give the whiner (affected by smoke or not) that doesn't like his neighbor  (OWB or EPA exempt burner) an excuse to call him in and make his life miserable. No matter who gets dragged into this fiasco right or wrong is gonna be LESS some greenbacks when it's done to fix a problem that might not even exist just because their neighbor has a beef.  I"m for reasonable setbacks and minimum chimney heights. Just like other  issues we better stick together here or we will all fall .


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## stihlgoin (Mar 25, 2008)

I think Slick, NY is down rt 17(I-86) someplace, but I've been told not to go there by reputable sources.....

I imagine when actual regulations are on the books, the DEC "fish cops" (as my former State Trooper neighbor affectionately referred to them) won't be handing out arbitrary tickets.  And, once again, this will hasten people's move towards wood gassification, especially when they start going through MORE wood when they try to burn nice dry stuff in their OWBs.  New regs didn't eliminate wood stoves, and they won't eliminate the use of wood.  NYS would have to spend so much extra $$ to subsidize home heating oil for "in need" residents -especially within the blue line and in more rural upstate areas (read: less affluent)- that it would create a deficit even Albany couldn't live with.  I'm not a politician, not a dealer of OWBs, and most certainly not a genius, but I'm sure that the end result of this will be one that most New Yorkers will live with.  Just think of all the new "green" business that may come about in the HVAC industry.  We might see some real innovation, I/O having smoke blown............

Chris

-may or may not be worth 2 cents


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## webbie (Mar 25, 2008)

Ha, with Lees post, I think I am in Green Acres - ah, the age old fight between the city mouse and the country mouse.

Call me a country mouse with some city sensibilities.......

Sad thing about regulations is that you always end up taking SOME of the good with the bad, but on balance you have to get it right...and try to be fair. If said Dairy Farmer is really a numerous case, then maybe you can can simply have exceptions when no neighbors are within X distance, or when the neighbors sign off on it (like zoning).

Ain't many OWB that are going to smell MORE than a muddy dairy lot or a field of freshly spread green manure! Ah, the smell of ammonia on a summer morn.......

Reminds me of a friend that tried to build a house on their horse farm - about 100 acres. The regs were strict where we lived due to a state/national park nearby, so he got held up for a year. Finally one day when they were questioning him about the septic, he blurted out "Hey Guys, there are 25 horses shitting and pissing on that field every day". Sort of put it in perspective. The approved the house.


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## JustWood (Mar 25, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Ha, with Lees post, I think I am in Green Acres - ah, the age old fight between the city mouse and the country mouse.
> 
> Call me a country mouse with some city sensibilities.......
> 
> ...





  LOL         "  So Mr. Joe Blow health Dept. guy ,  how would you like your POO , on top of the ground or in the ground  "    HA  ,ya gotta love the mentality!


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## Rick Stanley (Mar 25, 2008)

stihlgoin said:
			
		

> I think Slick, NY is down rt 17(I-86) someplace, but I've been told not to go there by reputable sources.....
> 
> I imagine when actual regulations are on the books, the DEC "fish cops" (as my former State Trooper neighbor affectionately referred to them) won't be handing out arbitrary tickets.  And, once again, this will hasten people's move towards wood gassification, especially when they start going through MORE wood when they try to burn nice dry stuff in their OWBs.  New regs didn't eliminate wood stoves, and they won't eliminate the use of wood.  NYS would have to spend so much extra $$ to subsidize home heating oil for "in need" residents -especially within the blue line and in more rural upstate areas (read: less affluent)- that it would create a deficit even Albany couldn't live with.  I'm not a politician, not a dealer of OWBs, and most certainly not a genius, but I'm sure that the end result of this will be one that most New Yorkers will live with.  Just think of all the new "green" business that may come about in the HVAC industry.  We might see some real innovation, I/O having smoke blown............
> 
> ...



HA, "Fish Cops" I love it!! Thought that was a Maine thing. Game Wardens are called that here at times.


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## Telco (Mar 25, 2008)

Neat read, how it's evolved since my last post last week!  I'm putting this in based on comments about peak oil made shortly after my last posting.  

WARNING This post will piss people off.  Please stay civil even if you disagree.  

The idea that we only have 30 years of oil left is a bit of incorrect thinking.  What gets left off this is we have 30 to 40 years of VERIFIED crude left.  The thing is, there has only been 30 to 40 years of verified crude in the ground since the 1800s.  The oil companies only search out oil until they've verified 40 years or so, then they stop looking until the supply has fallen to 30 years.  The idea is that 30 years is a long time, and verifying more than this costs money, so they only look to a point.  Plus, it perpetuates the idea of there only being so much available.

I'd have to wonder how much longer oil is going to be an issue anyway.  There are a couple of articles I refer to, one being this article on the Air Force moving to get a coal to liquid fuel process going as they wish to go domestic with their fuel sources for national security.  Nice thing about this is, only 15 percent of the output of a coal liquification plant is suitable for jet fuel so they will have to find a market for the 85 percent that would burn just great in a diesel engine.  Another nice thing, is that being that they are offering up land on existing Air Force bases for NEW plants, these new plants will have to meet the latest and greated environmental standards.  The Air Force also states that they intend to keep this as green as possible, as federal regs state that any non-petroleum source of fuel must be at least as green and preferably greener than the petroleum it replaces.  

The other article is this one about a company that is making petroleum, not diesel or ethanol but actual petroleum indistinguishable from the stuff in the ground from e.coli bacteria.  Yep, you crap it and they are making crude oil out of it.  They said that the normal excrement of e.coli is only a few molecular bonds away from petroleum in its natural state, so they tweaked a few genes and now the little buggers are crapping crude.  This second article brought to mind some other articles that I've read (no links to them, unfortunately) that stated that the oil industry has pumped fields dry, capped them off, then rechecked them a few years later to find them full again.  They said at the time that it must have seeped in from other areas, but what if bacteria crap exposed to pressure and heat is what crude oil is?  If the excrement from e.coli is a few bonds away from being crude, and heat and pressure are well known ways of making molecular bonds, then the idea that crude is a renewable resource is not a wild one.  If this is the case, then we will never run out of crude, because it is constantly being made by bacteria in the ground.  This means that the stuff has a lot less value than it did when it was thought to be a finite resource.  Yet another reason to let people think that peak oil is here.  Keep the people worked up and jack the prices up.  I've been hearing for the last 30 years that we only have 30 years of oil left.  If this was true, then we should be out on April 1 2008, not 30 years from now.  

I'm by no means a Big Oil advocate, I just think that panic costs everyone.  And, we've been in a needless sustained panic over oil for the last 10 years.  Only the oil industry has profited from the panic, to the tune of billions of dollars a quarter.  At the rate they are going, in another 10 years they'll have all the money.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 25, 2008)

Tom Libbous and George (Ithinks) Winner are the locals down here.......I think Libbous has some clout, but I don't know why I think that 

Chris


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## webbie (Mar 25, 2008)

Telco said:
			
		

> Neat read, how it's evolved since my last post last week!  I'm putting this in based on comments about peak oil made shortly after my last posting.
> 
> WARNING This post will piss people off.  Please stay civil even if you disagree.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone is either pissed or would disagree with these statements

There are hundreds of years of oil left. And there will probably be a lot o liquid fuels (bio) after that point.

The point might be that there is no CHEAP oil left. Think of it like airplane seats. They sell the first 10% for one price, the next 25% for another - and when the plane is 75% full, what does the "market" do?

My lack of education tells me that the airport should advertise cheap seats in the last 6-8 hours before the flight takes off to fill it....but, no, they would rather sell two expensive seats.....

So the oil market may have temporary gluts and plenty of supply, but deep down they know the cost of war, drilling and all the other stuff. Moreover, they know the cost of you or I trying to do the same work (heat) with other forms of energy. So oil and gas at $3.00 are still a bargain.

In NY State...as per this thread, a lot of people use wood for heating - it is cold, and people in the rural areas are not wealthy. It would break the bank for them to spend $3000 to $5000+ on fuel oil. Maybe someday we will have more efficient and smaller homes, but right now that does not help much. 

Of course, the same economics would speak out against people having systems that are 25% efficient and that burn out in 5-8 years (older water stoves). So once again I think the writing is on the wall - more expensive, but much better, appliances to burn the wood in. This will solve the smoke and the efficiency problems.


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## JustWood (Mar 26, 2008)

I can't wait for "peak wood"    then maybe I'll have a fat bank account at the end of the year  !   LOL


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## Telco (Mar 26, 2008)

Heh heh... well, you never know what you'll stir up when making posts about peak oil being a fallacy on any kind of alternative fueling board.  There's a lot of folks that don't like finding that their soap box has M-A-N-U-R-E written on the side.  I also feel that global warming being caused by man is another made for order panic situation, seeing as we still don't even know what all the environmental drivers are.  We also only have written weather logs for just over 100 years and only have reliable weather logs for 50 years.  Now pollution is a cause to get behind, because there's no doubt that man pollutes, just look at the air in the LA Basin. This is something that is provable.  Nice thing about eliminating the pollution, if man is causing global warming then this would eliminate that problem without spending billions proving it.  Put that money into cleaning the pollution instead.  To me, Global Warming is just the latest scam to separate people from their money, as I remember reading articles about the next Ice Age in the 70s.  When nobody cared about colder weather, they went the other way.  The GW advocates are claiming that the Greenland ice shelf is melting from man's pollution, but geologists found an active volcano under the water in the area that would be heating the water right as the North Atlantic Loop waters are making their pass along the Artic.  Did man make this volcano by driving SUVs?  No, but you don't ever hear about things like this.


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## webbie (Mar 26, 2008)

Global Warming is a good intro to the general pollution problem for the masses. A rallying cry - so I'm all for it. It is a lot harder to get folks behind the idea of stopping coal plants by telling them there are 137 chemicals in the air or water.......or, more recently, that we all have pharmaceuticals in our drinking water. 

Very few people in this world look beyond the next couple months or years.....that is probably programmed into us - not to look far ahead. 

It is hard for anyone to argue against efficiency and cleanliness of air, water and soil. So I'm hanging my hat there.


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## JustWood (Mar 26, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Global Warming is a good intro to the general pollution problem for the masses. A rallying cry - so I'm all for it. It is a lot harder to get folks behind the idea of stopping coal plants by telling them there are 137 chemicals in the air or water.......or, more recently, that we all have pharmaceuticals in our drinking water.
> 
> Very few people in this world look beyond the next couple months or years.....that is probably programmed into us - not to look far ahead.
> 
> It is hard for anyone to argue against efficiency and cleanliness of air, water and soil. So I'm hanging my hat there.




 Web ,you're only half right.  Most people dwell on the past.    "I remember when ______   was $_______"    LOL


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## Telco (Mar 28, 2008)

Good luck with it, keep up the good fight.  If these folks get a toe-in with any state on any whackjob regulations, the rest of the states usually fall like dominoes in the courts.  

I'd suggest that you start pressing your elected reps to not only shoot this new reg down, but kick these folks out of their jobs.  If they don't get this passed in its current form, they will immediately try again with a modified version knowing that their opponents have to spend time and money being vigilant and fighting these regs, while they are doing their normal 9-5 job trying to push them through.  You won't truly win the war unless you can get them thrown out and get some pro-wood people installed in their places.


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## JustWood (Mar 28, 2008)

shultesm49 said:
			
		

> It was strongly suggested by an elected official that with the Spitzer regime over, his appointed henchperson, Enck may well be finding herself in quicksand.  Stay tuned.  Your instincts and suggestion iare right on.




"GOOD NEWS, GOOD NEWS !   Roscoe caught the Duke boys !"


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## webbie (Mar 28, 2008)

It would have been nice if the links in the article actually worked, but they did not for me.

FYI, the national EPA regs for woodstoves started in New York State, and I am sure there was a big brohaha over that too! I'm gonna have to do a poll and find out how many OWB users are first generation country boys........maybe, like, from NYC before that! I knew a heck of a lot of transplants who were wood burners up near warrensburg.

City mouse vs country mouse - the timeless struggle! It is still being fought in many places - over stills!


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## JustWood (Mar 28, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> It would have been nice if the links in the article actually worked, but they did not for me.
> 
> FYI, the national EPA regs for woodstoves started in New York State, and I am sure there was a big brohaha over that too! I'm gonna have to do a poll and find out how many OWB users are first generation country boys........maybe, like, from NYC before that! I knew a heck of a lot of transplants who were wood burners up near warrensburg.
> 
> City mouse vs country mouse - the timeless struggle! It is still being fought in many places - over stills!




 Born and raised in the foot hills of the Appalachia Mountains. Hillbilly I am. Redneck I'm not ,there is a big difference. My girl just moved here in December from Upper Manhattan, born and raised in San Fran.    She walks around most of the time with her chin dragging on the ground saying What ...................?????????????? It's like she entered Bizzarro World. Never seen a cow milked,been on a hay ride, seen a swamp ,a bald eagle,or sipped a cold Appalachia Mountain Coors Light while watching deer graze from 50 yards.

Needless to say it is a different world for her. We have had some heated discussions about the way things are done around here and I've had to tell her to keep to herself so as not to offend someones way of life. Just sit back and learn. 

 We are a proud sort .We want to be left alone and settle our own differences. But when someone from the city moves here or we are led by politicians who steamroll us with unreasonable regulations don't expect us to lay down.

 Our rural senators don't dream up unreasonable regulations that we expect NYC residents to live up to. As far as I'm concerned NYC should be goverened as a whole seperate state. I'm not against reasonable regs, I just ask Politicians to use common sense and have the greater good of the state in mind. "You do your thing ,I'll do mine"


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## Telco (Mar 28, 2008)

Man that sucks.  Sounds like you guys need more woolen socks and pointy rocks up there.  Whap!  Send them carpetbaggers home to the big city!


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## JustWood (Mar 28, 2008)

Telco said:
			
		

> Man that sucks.  Sounds like you guys need more woolen socks and pointy rocks up there.  Whap!  Send them carpetbaggers home to the big city!




 What we need is a hangmans platform at the edge of town as a forwarning to newcomers! Just like in the old days.


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## webbie (Mar 28, 2008)

Are you saying that a NYC subway riding will not give up his seat for an old lady?


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## catskills (Mar 29, 2008)

A couple years ago we had a dynamic minister in our church. People were coming far and wide to hear him . He was also a college professor and had a few friends come every sunday with him. At coffee hour after church I spoke with one of his friends-a tall lady from Austria. I told her that many people come from the the city to visit or maybe live here in the Catskills. Some of these people think we are nothing but hillbillies and unsophisticated. She thought for a second and replied-yes I can relate to your story. Back home in Austria we call those people Germans!!


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## FLASHMAN (May 2, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> We've been saying for years on this board that OWBs have been sowing the seeds of their own demise. Why does everybody seem so shocked when one of the most regulated states in the country decides to regulate them? It's not like we were all blindsided.
> 
> And my opinion, for what it's worth, is that you won't have cleaner-burning central heating appliances until they're required by law. It's a lot like what happed to woodstoves--just three decades late.
> 
> As a practical matter, I'm guessing that nobody who currently owns an OWB in NYS is going to have a legal problem unless they're creating a smoke problem. And I think that most of us would agree that that's as it should be.



     Exactly.... There are laws in my home stat of CT on these... 200' from the nearest residence not served by the unit, and if within 500' of the nearest residence not served by the unit, the unit must have a chimney tall enough to extend beyond that building's roofline. That seems to be way more common sense than the NYS rules. 

     Also, in my very rural town, we have quite a few of these, I will have one soon as well. Most people in my town burn thiers' responsibly, with just some light wisps of smoke, never really see them chugging it out.

     For those who don't do that, STOP IT!! You're making the rest look bad. Stack your wood, out of the rain, stop burning tires, garbage, deer carcasses, what the hell is the matter with you?!?!?!?!?!


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