# Average daily electricity useage



## rwhite (Dec 30, 2016)

Trying to get a measure on electricity usage. My home is about 1800 sqft. All electric except for propane heat (wood stove installed 2 weeks ago). The average temp for the last 30 days was 32. I'm using about 82 kw a day. There are 3 people in the house and the wife is home all day. I have sent around and put a kill-o-watt meter on everything that is 120v and nothing seems out of the ordinary. The only things left are a dryer, hot water heater and a 120v halide light that is wired direct on my shop (dusk to dawn). Does 82 KW a day seem high? Everything in my previous home was NG. Last month when the average  temp was 51 I was using 63 kw.


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## Gotrek (Dec 30, 2016)

All I know is my 2200sq.ft house with electric only uses more power a year the most small european towns
Jokes aside I'll check my bill for you shortly.


I use ~42 kW.h during august. Where its warm and three to four  times that in winter.  Thus me buying a wood stove.

We have two 60 gallon water heaters. One in a barely heated space. Those are the bigger power wasters during summer. We don't use AC much.  And usually hang clothes to dry outside in summer.


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## rwhite (Dec 30, 2016)

Gotrek said:


> All I know is my 2200sq.ft house with electric only uses more power a year the most small european towns
> Jokes aside I'll check my bill for you shortly.


Thanks ! Not sure how accurate the use scales are on appliances but the HWH states 14kw day.


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## Gotrek (Dec 30, 2016)

Ill post Tuesday with a more current bill which includes heating.  They are at work

Oh and I live in fairly cold climate. +40 - -40 Celsius temp spread


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## snavematt (Dec 30, 2016)

my house total with basement is around 4500 sqft, 2 electric heat pumps, only gas is used for hot water and cook top.  last bill we averaged 71.9kw a day. One heat pump is kept at 64 and the other 65 My wife loves to have lights on in rooms we aren't in (go figure). This reading is up from the previous month which we averaged 35.8 per day, I believe this jump may be from when we got the stove installed, of heat escaping from the open ceiling pipe (even covered) which forced the heat on more. We have transitioned most of the bulbs to LED, but the big thing is that electronics plunged in even when not on, will still use electricity.

Granted I am in VA so it is not as cold here


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## rwhite (Dec 31, 2016)

So maybe I'm not to out of line. All lights are led except for fluorescent tubes in shop and garage. There is one 150w halide bulb which probably runs 16 hours a day this time of year. So here are my daily estimates of usage:
HWH-  22KW 
Stove- 5.6
Heater- 9.6
Well-8
2 fridges & freezer- 6
Garage light-2
Dryer-4

Total 59.9

So I thought that I estimated pretty high on the big usage items. So I have 22kw/day unaccounted for. Think that much could be consumed by lights, electronics etc? 

My HWH is in the garage and the temps out there are maybe high 30s. It's 18 outside now. I'm going to get some roxul today and insulate the heck out of that. It has a wrap on it but I think it's only r-4.


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## snavematt (Dec 31, 2016)

I forgot to add I have 2 refrigerators and a stand up freezer in the garage.


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## vinny11950 (Dec 31, 2016)

734 kw last month, I think.  I will find the bill to verify.

1250 sq, 2 people, on demand electric water heater, electric stove, and electric dryer.  Everything else is LED light bulbs.  I guess we don't take long showers.


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## rwhite (Dec 31, 2016)

I've got 1 fridge and 1 freezer in the garage. I imagine they don't use much this time of year. Luckily the furnace has been off for the last 2 weeks since the BK was installed. I'm thinking my HWH may be the biggest draw at this point. I have a bathroom in the shop that has a 120v baseboard in it. I have it plugged into a 38-50 degree thermostat to keep the pipes from freezing. I'm figured running it 24 hours would be about 288kw month. I doubt it runs 1/2 that as the bathroom is small and fairly well insulated. The previous owner said 2 incandescent bulbs would keep it warm enough. But since I can't get those I figured the baseboard was better than a heat lamp. Thank God electricity is only .08/kw


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## rwhite (Dec 31, 2016)

I've only been in the house 4 months so I'm slowly getting things lined out. The PO only stayed here in the summer months so he didn't worry much about heat and hot water as it was only him. So when I got the place 1 fill on the propane tank was enough to convince me to get a stove.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 31, 2016)

I averaged 340kwh/mo over the last 22 months.
2000 ft2, 2 people, electric heat pump water heater in summer, oil/pellet hot water heat, electric appliances, propane cook top


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## rwhite (Dec 31, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> I averaged 340kwh/mo over the last 22 months.
> 2000 ft2, 2 people, electric heat pump water heater in summer, oil/pellet hot water heat, electric appliances, propane cook top


Holy crap! Do you walk around with head lamps on? What I'm seeing is the differing factors are often hot water and cooking.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 31, 2016)

I did a quick search and came up with this.  It's not clear if keeping a freezer in the garage saves energy.  Plus the water heater in the garage.  The previous guy was set up for summer use, it seems.

oops, link:
http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/freezer-in-garage.html


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## velvetfoot (Dec 31, 2016)

The propane tank lasts forever.  We do eat out a lot though, so there is that.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2016)

rwhite said:


> Trying to get a measure on electricity usage. My home is about 1800 sqft. All electric except for propane heat (wood stove installed 2 weeks ago). The average temp for the last 30 days was 32. I'm using about 82 kw a day. There are 3 people in the house and the wife is home all day. I have sent around and put a kill-o-watt meter on everything that is 120v and nothing seems out of the ordinary. The only things left are a dryer, hot water heater and a 120v halide light that is wired direct on my shop (dusk to dawn). Does 82 KW a day seem high? Everything in my previous home was NG. Last month when the average  temp was 51 I was using 63 kw.



Whoa. That's way way too high. I live in 1700sf, heat all with wood, average temp last month was 30, all electric, two tween daughters, one wife, one extra freezer, one keg refrigerator, 20 kWh per day without hot tub, 45 kWh per day with it. Oh I have no well and gravity septic. We bake our own bread. I monitor with an efergy power monitor. We have higher days but the 45 is normal.

I would be looking for your leak. I suspect a well pump problem. I really like being able to monitor power use in real time.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 31, 2016)

I second a whole house energy monitor.  I have an older Energy Detective, and the other day I noticed an electric heater in the bathroom was on just before we left the house.  I have the display in the kitchen next to the outside thermometer and on the way out the door.  I wish it had the ability to acquire data and chart it.


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## rwhite (Dec 31, 2016)

So short of buying a $300 tool. How would one test for "leaks"? I plugged a kill-a-watt in every 120v circuit and didn't get anything out of the ordinary. So how would I rest my 220 circuits?


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## rwhite (Dec 31, 2016)

I've got my well pump set to kick on at 38lbs and off at 57lbs. When I set it several months ago it would pump to 57 then shut off and settle in around 54/55. I haven't noticed any intermittent cycling but I'll keep an eye on that in case it's a bad foot valve. No water leaks that I know of?


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## tlc1976 (Jan 1, 2017)

My old 1050 sq ft no-frills house was all electric appliances, except the LP furnace that I didn't use because I burned wood.  No well pump, no garage, so no extra fridges/freezers or shop/yard lights.  All CFLs in the house.  When I was married the wife was home all day, and it was 4-5 of us.  Use was roughly 55 kwh/day.  So to me your use seems reasonable.  When they left my bill suddenly dropped by 75%.


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## Blaine (Jan 1, 2017)

Central Maine Power claims that their average residential customer account uses 550 KWH per month. Assuming that average usage in your area is similar to that number, and that your 3 person household is about average, except for the shop usage (roughly 350 KWH per month), then you have every right to be concerned when your own usage is exceeding 900-1000 KWH per month. 

   It sure seems like there is a problem somewhere. Do the security light and bathroom heater account for all of your shop usage? Are you running heavy industrial equipment out there? Assuming there is an electrical subpanel in the shop, can you shut off the main breaker there, then check at the house end to see if there is still any draw on the supply line?

  Was your electric meter changed when you bought the house a few months ago? If not, you might call your local utility and have them test and/or replace the meter, since there is always a possibility that your meter is simply inaccurate. 

   In my small, 1 person house, electrical usage has never exceeded 8 KWH average per day, and more commonly runs about 6 KWH per day. So, your shop nightlight and bathroom heater are using almost twice as much electricity as it takes to run my whole house.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

I have to find out what's going on. I used a kwh calculator and plugged in all my appliances. I should be around 1500 kWh month. So I'm double that basically.
The shop is shut down for the most part. I don't leave my welders or compressor plugged in if I'm not using them so the only thing running is 2 led lights, a 150w halide light,  24" baseboard.  The HWH out there is a small 2 gallon point of use. I have it wired into the bathroom light and that light is off 99% of the time. If I go out to work in the shop I'll flip it on so it may run 6 hours a month.


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## WES999 (Jan 1, 2017)

Here is my usage, last year I used 4691 kwh, 390/mo  13/day.
1100sf ranch, 2 people,  electric HW, ( DIY solar heater), electric stove , dryer.
Guess I am not doing too bad.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

I'd be happy at 1/2 my use! We are far from the light police but I have basically all leds so I could probably leave every light in the place on 24 hours and not account for a 1/6 of my total usage.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 1, 2017)

I don't think all of the latest whole house energy monitors (with recording capability) are $300-I think less.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I don't think all of the latest whole house energy monitors (with recording capability) are $300-I think less.


I just looked at the energy detective ones. I'm gonna run some well tests today and make sure I'm not getting any leak down anywhere. I put an entire batt of roxul around the HWH and wrapped that with visqueen last night. All the PO had on the tank was some ducting insulation that pretty much covered 2/3 and nothing on top. It is sitting on 2" foam though.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 1, 2017)

I think the effergy is cheaper.  There may be other ones out there too.  They all involve putting current transformer coils on the hot legs in the breaker box.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

In my quest to check if I had any well leakage i pulled the cap on the well. There was some bubble wrapped shoved in the 1st few feet of the casing. I pulled that out and could hear gurgling. Nothing noticeably leaking at the pitiless adapter. I shut the pump down and drained the system. The gurgling still was present. Put the well cap back on (left the bubble wrap out) and now it is hissing! Fairly loud to. This is with the pump still off and the system drained. I have had it off a few hours now and it's still doing it. I would have thought that it would have quit or drained out by now if it was a bad foot valve. Well pump sits at 357'


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 1, 2017)

I average 170kwh/mo.   Water is heated with gas, gas dryer too.  1400 sqft cape in upstate NY.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 1, 2017)

~2000 sq ft, all electric except heat which is a wood furnace or wood insert stove that both have blowers running when in use. Two adults and one toddler. Two refrigerators, one is in the kitchen and one in the basement, along with one small freezer. 110' water well and gravity septic and floor drains. Some CFL and LED lights, some incandescent, one 65W dusk to dawn CFL security light. Whole house AC too.
We run 700-800 KWH/month on average summer and winter.


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## maple1 (Jan 1, 2017)

We're right around 20kwh/day. Electric water heater, stove & dryer. Shallow well water pump. Used to be 5 of us here, now mostly 3.

Get an Effergy monitor, you won't regret it. Consumption guides & online calculators are usually out to lunch.

Random other stuff: set your water pump down. Ours is at 20/35. Make sure your cushion tank is pressurized properly. Its easy for a submersible to cost big bucks when its buried & you don't know how much its running. Fluorescent tube fixtures use more juice than you might think if they're on much. Check & verify how hot your water heater is heating your water. Install heat traps on the inlet & outlet, insulate all the pipes.


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## Highbeam (Jan 1, 2017)

rwhite said:


> In my quest to check if I had any well leakage i pulled the cap on the well. There was some bubble wrapped shoved in the 1st few feet of the casing. I pulled that out and could hear gurgling. Nothing noticeably leaking at the pitiless adapter. I shut the pump down and drained the system. The gurgling still was present. Put the well cap back on (left the bubble wrap out) and now it is hissing! Fairly loud to. This is with the pump still off and the system drained. I have had it off a few hours now and it's still doing it. I would have thought that it would have quit or drained out by now if it was a bad foot valve. Well pump sits at 357'



Now we're getting somewhere. Your well should be silent when the pump is off. I've seen several well pipes develop leaks between the pump and the pitless adapter. This causes pump cycles when no water is being used. Also, 357 is quite deep and depending on the static water level you might have to use a lot of power for water even when everything is perfect.

Tonight, shut off the well pump breaker and note the pressure, no water to be used. In the morning the pressure should not have dropped at all unless somebody used water. If morning pressure is zero, go listen to the well and I bet the gurgling is gone.


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## Highbeam (Jan 1, 2017)

rwhite said:


> So short of buying a $300 tool. How would one test for "leaks"? I plugged a kill-a-watt in every 120v circuit and didn't get anything out of the ordinary. So how would I rest my 220 circuits?



Maybe buy a 150$ whole house energy monitor. It will pay for itself.

I also own a clamp on ampmeter from Klein that was like 30$ but it doesn't log consumption, just gives instantaneous current.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 1, 2017)

My energy monitor is what alerted me to a rusted out check valve down on my submersible well pump. It would pump up the bladder tank, shut off and then the water would leak back down into the well. Over and over and over. When the electric usage went nuclear I went down in the basement and sat down for a bit and listened to the pump come on, go off for a little bit and kick in again.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Now we're getting somewhere. Your well should be silent when the pump is off. I've seen several well pipes develop leaks between the pump and the pitless adapter. This causes pump cycles when no water is being used. Also, 357 is quite deep and depending on the static water level you might have to use a lot of power for water even when everything is perfect.
> 
> Tonight, shut off the well pump breaker and note the pressure, no water to be used. In the morning the pressure should not have dropped at all unless somebody used water. If morning pressure is zero, go listen to the well and I bet the gurgling is gone.


So the well is actually blowing air. There is a vented cap on the well but the PO had it siliconed on with the vent/wire tube also siliconed up ( looked like a tube of silicone in there) . I had the pump off and system drained and it continued to blow air for 3 hours. So no change from pump on or off. I don't know a lot about wells but I would assume that if it needs vented and they had it sealed it can't be good.  I did adjust my pressure switch. The tank had 30lbs and the switch was set to cut on at 38lbs. The well has a 1.5hp 7 gal/min pump.  Once it kicks on it takes a little over 2 minutes to pump up.


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## maple1 (Jan 1, 2017)

How big is your tank? 2 minutes seems too long.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

BrotherBart said:


> My energy monitor is what alerted me to a rusted out check valve down on my submersible well pump. It would pump up the bladder tank, shut off and then the water would leak back down into the well. Over and over and over. When the electric usage went nuclear I went down in the basement and sat down for a bit and listened to the pump come on, go off for a little bit and kick in again.


I can hear the pump kick on from the living room. It's certainly not cycling. I'm just wondering if it wasn't straining if it should have been vented and was plugged. I'll look into the monitor.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

maple1 said:


> How big is your tank? 2 minutes seems too long.


It says it will hold 17.7 gals at 30psi bladder pressure. I figured with a 7 gal min pump , 2 min was about right?


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## brenndatomu (Jan 1, 2017)

I guess I can't say for sure if it needs to be vented or not, but I bet the hissing was because of the water level rising. I know that on a commercial water well the water level can recover 10-20' when it is shut off...that air has to go somewhere...


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## Highbeam (Jan 1, 2017)

rwhite said:


> So the well is actually blowing air. There is a vented cap on the well but the PO had it siliconed on with the vent/wire tube also siliconed up ( looked like a tube of silicone in there) . I had the pump off and system drained and it continued to blow air for 3 hours. So no change from pump on or off. I don't know a lot about wells but I would assume that if it needs vented and they had it sealed it can't be good.  I did adjust my pressure switch. The tank had 30lbs and the switch was set to cut on at 38lbs. The well has a 1.5hp 7 gal/min pump.  Once it kicks on it takes a little over 2 minutes to pump up.



Your pump is not blowing air but the water level in the well will rise and fall as the pump cycles which can move air if there is a vent.  There is no need to accommodate this air movement with a vent because the well can only pump water and water comes in from the bottom. You don't want crap or surface water getting in to the well. 

Do the test. Shut off the well pump overnight,use no water, and check for pressure loss in the morning. This is how you identify a leak.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 1, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Do the test. Shut off the well pump overnight,use no water, and check for pressure loss in the morning. This is how you identify a leak.


Maybe valve off all water to the house to eliminate leaky toilet valves and the like?

I bet that water heater is gonna be a winner.  

Did you plug the garage freezers into a kill-o-watt meter for a period of time, like a week?, at cold ambient temps to get a trusty kwh consumption rate?


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Your pump is not blowing air but the water level in the well will rise and fall as the pump cycles which can move air if there is a vent.  There is no need tojust accommodate this air movement with a vent because the well can only pump water and water comes in from the bottom. You don't want crap or surface water getting in to the well.
> 
> Do the test. Shut off the well pump overnight,use no water, and check for pressure loss in the morning. This is how you identify a leak.


I'll do that tonite. The pump is not blowing air the well casing is. I can put a lighter over the casing and it will blow it out. With the cap on it just whistles/hisses. That was even after the pump was off for 3  hours.


velvetfoot said:


> Maybe valve off all water to the house to eliminate leaky toilet valves and the like?
> 
> I bet that water heater is gonna be a winner.
> 
> Did you plug the garage freezers into a kill-o-watt meter for a period of time, like a week?, at cold ambient temps to get a trusty kwh consumption rate?


I adjusted all the toilets today and put them all 1" below the overflow.  At least one of them could have been high. I did have the kill o watt on the fridges . I wrote it down several weeks ago and now I can't find it. I'll put it on there again and check. One strange thing which from what I searched is common, when the furnace is off it still energizes a transformer. Doesn't amount to much (comes out to 5.4 kwh month, .47 cents).


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## velvetfoot (Jan 1, 2017)

rwhite said:


> I adjusted all the toilets today and put them all 1" below the overflow.


The flapper could still be leaking.  If you have a shutoff valve for the house, which you should, why not turn it off while you're doing the pressure tank leakdown test overnight?


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> The flapper could still be leaking.  If you have a shutoff valve for the house, which you should, why not turn it off while you're doing the pressure tank leakdown test overnight?


I'll do that to. If they are leaking it would have to be minute. I put some food coloring in the tank and nothing showed up in the bowl.


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## rwhite (Jan 1, 2017)

This is exactly what my well is doing


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2017)

rwhite said:


> This is exactly what my well is doing




Totally weird. I've never seen that. I could imagine why it would suck air that fast but blowing out would be slower.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

Shut the well pump off and the pressure gauge was 0 this morning.  So I've got an external leak some where. Guess I better start another thread while I wait for the well guy to show up!


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2017)

rwhite said:


> Shut the well pump off and the pressure gauge was 0 this morning.  So I've got an external leak some where. Guess I better start another thread while I wait for the well guy to show up!


That sounds cheap...NOT.  Good luck.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/well-issues.159454/


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## maple1 (Jan 2, 2017)

I would do the overnight thing again, but also valve off the inside-the-house stuff. Then if it's zero again, it's in the house. If not, it's in the ground.

Actually wouldn't need to be overnight, a couple/few hours should show a pressure drop. Long as no water was otherwise used.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I would do the overnight thing again, but also valve off the inside-the-house stuff. Then if it's zero again, it's in the house. If not, it's in the ground.
> 
> Actually wouldn't need to be overnight, a couple/few hours should show a pressure drop. Long as no water was otherwise used.


I had the house valve off last night. I'm pretty sure it's not in the house unfortunately.  I have access to all the plumbing and nothing is leaking and I also tested the toilets with food coloring and they aren't leaking.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> Maybe valve off all water to the house to eliminate leaky toilet valves and the like?
> 
> I bet that water heater is gonna be a winner.
> 
> Did you plug the garage freezers into a kill-o-watt meter for a period of time, like a week?, at cold ambient temps to get a trusty kwh consumption rate?


Garage freezer and fridge, plugged in together to the kill a watt for 24 hours show .04 kw/hr.  So that's less than $3/mo  at least when it's 10 degrees out!


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

I still can't explain the well blowing air deal. Not much info out there but what there is is saying barometric pressure can cause blowing/sucking so maybe? Any how to the pressure issue: I found 1 of my frost free hydrants not adjusted right. Not enough pressure to send it out the stand pipe but I could hear it with my ear to the pipe. I was losing 6psi per hour and now it's holding at 50psi for the last 2 hours. So I'm optimistic I figured it out.

I'll check back in next month when the bill shows up.  I'm gonna look into the efergy monitor though. It would have made life simpler trying to track down this crazy use!


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2017)

rwhite said:


> Garage freezer and fridge, plugged in together to the kill a watt for 24 hours show .04 kw/hr. So that's less than $3/mo at least when it's 10 degrees out!


.04 kw/h?  Do you mean kwh?  You can measure kwh with the kill-o-watt.  .04kwh/day * 30 days = 1.2 kwh, which'd be like 15 cents or something.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> .04 kw/h?  Do you mean kwh?  You can measure kwh with the kill-o-watt.  .04kwh/day * 30 days = 1.2 kwh, which'd be like 15 cents or something.


Kwh, kilo watts per hour, same thing.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

My issue with the efergy will be that I have 4 panels. I guess I could start at the main line and work down? Main panel at the pole has a cut off and the well, house panel has the house and sends to a sub in the shop. Shop has a sub that sends power to shed.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2017)

rwhite said:


> Kwh, kilo watts per hour, same thing.


energy =  power x time
eg,  1kw * 24 hours =  24 kwh.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> energy =  power x time
> eg,  1kw * 24 hours =  24 kwh.


Yes. If use 1 kw/hr  that's 1 kilowatt for 1 hr. In 24 hrs it would be 24kw or 24 kWh. I wrote it not per standard but it means the same thing.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2017)

So, your freezer and fridge in the garage used .04kwh over a 24 period.  That's like 1.2 kwh for a 30 day month.   That's like, nothing.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> So, your freezer and fridge in the garage used .04kwh over a 24 period.  That's like 1.2 kwh for a 30 day month.   That's like, nothing.


I know. I figure it's because it's 30 degrees out there. Not much need to kick on this time of year. I have the kill a watt plugged into the house fridge to see what it does.


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## lml999 (Jan 2, 2017)

Your usage seems quite high. I'm at 650-710 kWh per month for a four bedroom colonial, electric stove, gas cooktop and dryer, hydronic hot water heat (5 zones plus an indirect), two newish refrigerators, well, gravity septic. Two of us in the house, mostly.


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

lml999 said:


> Your usage seems quite high. I'm at 650-710 kWh per month for a four bedroom colonial, electric stove, gas cooktop and dryer, hydronic hot water heat (5 zones plus an indirect), two newish refrigerators, well, gravity septic. Two of us in the house, mostly.


I'm hoping it was a combination of well running to much and poorly insulated HWH.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2017)

rwhite said:


> I'm hoping it was a combination of well running to much and poorly insulated HWH.



It wasn't your water heater. They're quite well insulated these days.

I have a kill-a-watt too, big surprise right? I found that modern refrigerators and freezers use hardly any power. Super low. Only 100 watts when running 50% of the day so less than  2 kWh per day for the kitchen refrigerator. 

Multiple subpanels is no problem. Put the efergy on the main panel right behind the meter. It wirelessly transmits to the monitor. If nothing else, you will know the instantaneous power flow and the daily kWh use. You could clamp it to the well circuit to log the power use on that circuit.

My power company has an online way to look up daily power use. It's slow and delayed but they offer it and my digital smart meter apparently reports to the utility often.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> It wasn't your water heater. They're quite well insulated these days.


It's in his unheated garage in Idaho.  Ambient must be a factor, but how much of a factor?


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> It's in his unheated garage in Idaho.  Ambient must be a factor, but how much of a factor?



It certainly can't hurt to superinsulate it.


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## lml999 (Jan 2, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Multiple subpanels is no problem. Put the efergy on the main panel right behind the meter. It wirelessly transmits to the monitor. If nothing else, you will know the instantaneous power flow and the daily kWh use. You could clamp it to the well circuit to log the power use on that circuit.
> 
> My power company has an online way to look up daily power use. It's slow and delayed but they offer it and my digital smart meter apparently reports to the utility often.



I have a neat little meter that reads all power consumed and reports it to both a website and to an IOS application. Got it as part of a PV solar installation. 

Since installation in September, I've used 2145 kWh and generated 2553 kWh. For the next couple of months, I expect to be generating just a bit less than we're using...come spring, we may be at a 3X ratio of generation to usage!


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## rwhite (Jan 2, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> It certainly can't hurt to superinsulate it.



The HWH is probably 14 yrs old so not sure how it stands up to newer models as far as insulation goes. 

All the water lines run under the house right at grade. It stays about 40-50 degrees under there. All the water lines run through engineered joists and are all copper uninsulated. I have a circulator pump on the HWH that run about 5 hours a day. I have it set for 3 hours in the morning and a couple hours at night so we don't have to wait 5 minutes for hot  water. Pump is minimal cost to run ($2.00/mo). But I'm sure the HWH could benefit from having all the lines insulated. Next project is to buy 100' of pipe insulation and cut it 16" chunks!


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## maple1 (Jan 2, 2017)

Uh yeah, that's costing you electrons...


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## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

Apparently I do have a smart meter which transmits (Not sure how often yet). All this time I thought it was just a digital meter. Is there an in home monitor that will receive info from the meter real time? Will the efergy do this?


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## jebatty (Jan 3, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> It certainly can't hurt to superinsulate it.


 Usage for my electric hot water heater dropped 50% after super-insulating (6" fiberglass wrap top, sides, bottom), insulating the hot water pipes, and plumbing a U-shaped heat trap to stop ghost flows.


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## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> So, your freezer and fridge in the garage used .04kwh over a 24 period.  That's like 1.2 kwh for a 30 day month.   That's like, nothing.


.04 per hour, so figuring a 720 hour month it's around 29kwh per month. Consequently the house fridge alone was about double that. So there's probably something to a fridge in a 72 degree house vs a 30 degree garage.


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## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

I don't know if the smart meter is done calculating the previous day when it resets for the current day? I would assume so. Every day previous to the 2nd I was averaging 82 kwh. Never lower than 60. Yesterday with the well issue fixed and HWH insulated the meter is showing 6.93 kwh. I'll check throughout the day to see if it changed but that is a about a 90% reduction.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 3, 2017)

Maybe something to do with the new month?


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## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> Maybe something to do with the new month?


I doubt it . Since I moved into the place in September I haven't had a single day lower than 60kwh. The 1st month I watered the lawn quite a bit so I figured that was the cause. Then October and November roll around and the bill doesn't change. My previous house was all NG and city water so I had nothing to reference to. I finally got the kill a watt last month and started tracking all the 120 circuits. Every thing seems normal and even lower than I expected. I just didn't realize I have been pumping 200 gal of water a day! Good thing I live on fractured basalt. It never rose to the surface.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 3, 2017)

Well, I hope the reduction is real.  That'd be awesome!!


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## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> Well, I hope the reduction is real.  That'd be awesome!!


It would be! I'm gonna call them here in a few minutes and see. Here's the graph from the meter for the last 14days of the billing cycle. Yesterday was day 14. The black line is temp.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 3, 2017)

The utility will come out and check things out if this keeps up!


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## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> The utility will come out and check things out if this keeps up!


I'm surprised they didn't show up looking for grow lights up to now!


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## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2017)

rwhite said:


> The HWH is probably 14 yrs old so not sure how it stands up to newer models as far as insulation goes.
> 
> All the water lines run under the house right at grade. It stays about 40-50 degrees under there. All the water lines run through engineered joists and are all copper uninsulated. I have a circulator pump on the HWH that run about 5 hours a day. I have it set for 3 hours in the morning and a couple hours at night so we don't have to wait 5 minutes for hot  water. Pump is minimal cost to run ($2.00/mo). But I'm sure the HWH could benefit from having all the lines insulated. Next project is to buy 100' of pipe insulation and cut it 16" chunks!



I am imagining the typical PNW construction method of a ventilated crawlspace under your home. Then you should have floor insulation between the joists. For some reason your contractor didn't insulate the water system under the house? Wow. That's ridiculous. Not just for energy loss but for freeze protection. The energy loss issue is made much worse by your HW recirc system. Once you properly insulate those pipes I wonder if the crawlspace will no longer be 40-50 as it is now. Better be sure to insulate both hot and cold.

You don't have to worry about U shaped heat traps if your water heater tank is above the crawlspace. The fact that your water lines run out of the tank and then down is like a huge heat trap built in.


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## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2017)

rwhite said:


> I'm surprised they didn't show up looking for grow lights up to now!



We turn on our hot tub every winter and when we do the power consumption for our home doubles. We tend to get visits from the power company in June when we shut it off. Have a nice new meter too!


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## rwhite (Jan 3, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> I am imagining the typical PNW construction method of a ventilated crawlspace under your home. Then you should have floor insulation between the joists. For some reason your contractor didn't insulate the water system under the house? Wow. That's ridiculous. Not just for energy loss but for freeze protection. The energy loss issue is made much worse by your HW recirc system. Once you properly insulate those pipes I wonder if the crawlspace will no longer be 40-50 as it is now. Better be sure to insulate both hot and cold.
> 
> You don't have to worry about U shaped heat traps if your water heater tank is above the crawlspace. The fact that your water lines run out of the tank and then down is like a huge heat trap built in.


The house has about a 4' stemwall with maybe a foot or so above grade. All the floor joist are insulated. Here's the other crazy thing I don't understand. The furnace ducting all runs under the house. It's all properly insulated. But the "hub" under the furnace as a vent in the side of it which would blow warm air under the house. I guess a novel idea of I used the furnace but it hasn't been on in a few weeks. Seems it would have been easier to insulate the pipes rather than heat the under side of the house.


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## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2017)

rwhite said:


> The house has about a 4' stemwall with maybe a foot or so above grade. All the floor joist are insulated. Here's the other crazy thing I don't understand. The furnace ducting all runs under the house. It's all properly insulated. But the "hub" under the furnace as a vent in the side of it which would blow warm air under the house. I guess a novel idea of I used the furnace but it hasn't been on in a few weeks. Seems it would have been easier to insulate the pipes rather than heat the under side of the house.



So the crawlspace has those screened vents every 10 feet or so too right? It should. What you describe is very common in the PNW except for the supply vent in the crawl, that sounds like a builder's special.

I like the rubberized foam pipe insulation with the preapplied glue. It will go on fast if the copper pipes are actually hanging down under the insulation. I would precut in the garage and bring down a 5 gallon bucket full of those little chunks. Cut them a little big so that they cover all the copper.


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## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Wanted to thank everyone for the assistance and high beam for pointing me toward the well. Leak is fixed, HWH super insulated, and all pipes insulated. The well was 99% of my problem but the other things didn't hurt to do. In addition I went on a caulking craze and $5 in caulking raised my rear rooms 4-5 degrees in temp. I went from an average of 82kwh a day to the last 8 days using 30-40 with only 1 day around 80  because we did laundry and cleaned all day (including the oven on self clean mode). Sufficed to say I am ecstatic and now that I watch the meter everyday I've become the light and turn every thing off police! I think I might become obsessed to see how low I can get it.


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## maple1 (Jan 11, 2017)

Might give this one a read too:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/monitoring-electricity-use.121772/


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## Ashful (Jan 11, 2017)

Geez... just stumbled on this thread.  Read the first and last page of posts, so I missed the middle, but you were burning 340 kWh per month, and suspected a problem?  That's an amazing catch.  I'm happy any month we're under 2,000 kWh.


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## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Geez... just stumbled on this thread.  Read the first and last page of posts, so I missed the middle, but you were burning 340 kWh per month, and suspected a problem?  That's an amazing catch.  I'm happy any month we're under 2,000 kWh.


I was burning 2400-2600 kwh a month. Using an average of 82kwh per day.


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## Ashful (Jan 11, 2017)

Holy carp!  That's a different story.  I just saw the 340 kWh number listed in your first post, missed that later statement.  Assuming my local rates, you're talking $400+ months, there.


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## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Holy carp!  That's a different story.  I just saw the 340 kWh number listed in your first post, missed that later statement.  Assuming my local rates, you're talking $400+ months, there.


Luckily power is cheap here. The advantage of living with in 100 miles of Bonneville!  We pay 8.8 cents a kWh.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 11, 2017)

Way to go!


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## Ashful (Jan 11, 2017)

rwhite said:


> Luckily power is cheap here. The advantage of living with in 100 miles of Bonneville!  We pay 8.8 cents a kWh.


Our listed "price to compare" is about 9 cents, but our all-in dollars per kWh is around 16.8 cents, after figuring taxes and delivery.


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## rwhite (Jan 11, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Our listed "price to compare" is about 9 cents, but our all-in dollars per kWh is around 16.8 cents, after figuring taxes and delivery.


I'm on a co-op and we just pay a flat $23 service charge whether you use 1 or 10000 kWh.


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## Dobish (Jan 11, 2017)

we are 1900 sq ft, 4 people and a dog + nanny share at our house for 4 kids during the day. Keep the house around 65º

in 2015 we were averaging 18.46/day and in 2016 we average 16.7/day.

When we bought the house in 2014, the bill for may was for 1644, just for MAY!... ours in may of 2015 was for 637. 2016 was 455.

we put solar on the house, which doesn't really have any effect, but we also redid all the windows, doors, programmable thermostat, stopped using space heaters in every room, did some insulation, and added the wood stove. Not to mention we swapped out most of the bulbs for LED.

On the other hand, we also installed an electric on demand water heater, got a second freezer, had a second kid (3x laundry), have people in the house all day, and are not super good about turning off lights.  Overall, we could do better, but we are pretty happy!

We have a 300 sq ft cottage with all new insulation, doors, windows, electric baseboard heat, and electric water heater. For the last 2 years, the average there has been 5/day. They also have a washer and dryer in the unit, and tend to keep it closer to 70º.

Our townhouse is 1800 sq ft, with solar that produces the majority of our power, but the average usage there was 10.3/day over the last 2 years. That place has decent insulation, all new doors and windows, and gas furnace. we never run the AC, but had 4-5 people living there.


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## woodgeek (Jan 12, 2017)

The OP has some problems, prob big ones that are easy to find....my money is on the HWH + circulator + uninsulated HW pipes.  The cost estimate on the tank and the circ pump DOES NOT INCLUDE heating the great outdoors for hours through those pipes.  Those circulators are notorious energy wasters when the pipes are insulated AND in a conditioned space.  The OPs case...triple threat.

Try turning it off for a few days (and still use the HW with the annoying wait) and see what happens.

For comparison, my 2200 sq ft house + 4 people (two teens), all electric including all heat and AC (70°F year-round) + 9000 electric car miles/yr

Our average daily usage is 50 kWh/day.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 12, 2017)

woodgeek said:


> The OP has some problems, prob big ones that are easy to find....my money is on the HWH + circulator + uninsulated HW pipes.  The cost estimate on the tank and the circ pump DOES NOT INCLUDE heating the great outdoors for hours through those pipes.  Those circulators are notorious energy wasters when the pipes are insulated AND in a conditioned space.  The OPs case...triple threat.
> 
> Try turning it off for a few days (and still use the HW with the annoying wait) and see what happens.
> 
> ...


Issue solved.  See post 83.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/average-daily-electricity-useage.159381/page-4#post-2144454


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## woodgeek (Jan 12, 2017)

Thanks for the heads up to #82.  But I still think the circulator deserves some attention.


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## maple1 (Jan 12, 2017)

I had forgotten about that one. Had to go re-read. (Post 66 for those keeping score).

Sounds like there would definitely be some kwh being lost there also - even if the pipes were to get insulated.

(Did the pipes get insulated?)

Our master shower/bath could benefit in one way from a recirc pump - the hot has a ways to travel & there is a wait for it. But the minute or so wait for it seems small pennies compared to how much heat & kwh that would be wasted the other 23 hours and a half it would be running with none being used. Suspect it is less than a minute actually, never timed it - just seems like longer when you're standing there ready & waiting to get hot & soapy.


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## woodgeek (Jan 12, 2017)

My shower head has a nice feature that is you turn it on a little when the water is cold, is almost shuts off when the water warms up.  I just turn it on a bit before I am ready to shower, and it is ready when I need it.


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## Ashful (Jan 12, 2017)

Is it normal for new houses to have a recirc on the hot water?  Seems crazy.  Even with my long run of 3/4" pipe from boiler room to master bath, the shower is always hot and ready by the time I'm ready to get in, if I turn the hot water on before getting undressed.


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## Rockey (Jan 12, 2017)

Because of this thread I decided to pull out an energy bill and see how our house compares to others when it comes to electricity usage. Ill have to admit I was a bit apprehensive because we just moved in back in August. So naturally September was our highest month with both the 5 ton and 2.5 ton ac units working. It came to 1600 for the month. I began replacing all the lights in the house when we moved in to LED and did a few each evening because I didnt want to worry about keeping the house dim to keep the bill low. Im still not done and I think I have replaced over 150 lights. Last month was our lowest at 700 kw. I honestly was surprised because we have at least 25 bulbs going at any given time, and probably more like 35-40. Our boiler/hydronic system has quite a few pumps that are on quite a bit and my wife works from home now so God only knows what she has on during the day, except the stove/oven. I dont think she knows where that is, but it wouldnt matter anyway because its NG.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 12, 2017)

That's a lot o lights.


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## maple1 (Jan 12, 2017)

He seems to have something in common with the fellow who posted right before him.


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## Ashful (Jan 12, 2017)

maple1 said:


> He seems to have something in common with the fellow who posted right before him.


I assume you meant wives who have a suspicious affinity for giving money to the electric utility company.  I just came home to find the 70" TV and a dozen lights on, with everyone in the house asleep.

I'm also hoping he meant 1600 kWh, and not $1600, but he isn't clear.  If dollars, I've been trumped!


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## maple1 (Jan 13, 2017)

Actually, I was just thinking about number of light bulbs - just in a ha ha kind of way.

First part could be true too - but wasn't me that said that.


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## Ashful (Jan 13, 2017)

I haven't counted bulbs recently, but the number was something like 205 when we moved in.  I only know this because about half of them were blown, so I spent my first day in the house cataloging every bulb in every fixture, for a very big shopping list.  If you count a 48" fluorescent tube as a "bulb", I'd guess my shop addition and a few new table lamps has us just over 250 bulbs, now.  Most are low wattage (under 50 watts), and run on dimmers.


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## Ashful (Jan 13, 2017)

Serendipitous timing, here.  I just got my bill for December:  2868 kWh.


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## Rockey (Jan 13, 2017)

I was talking in kw/hrs sorry I didnt specify. The more Ashful types the more I believe we are living in the same house. one day when I get to the other side of this house I fully expect to see him over there. Until then, Im glad he's paying the utility bill. Ha


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## lazeedan (Jan 13, 2017)

It is interesting to see the difference in usage. I just checked my current bill 742 kWh. And the last 12 months 8869 kWh.


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## Ashful (Jan 14, 2017)

Rockey said:


> I was talking in kw/hrs sorry I didnt specify. The more Ashful types the more I believe we are living in the same house. one day when I get to the other side of this house I fully expect to see him over there. Until then, Im glad he's paying the utility bill. Ha



Very funny!  You just reminded me that the buddy from whom I get all my wood has his house bisected by the county line.  Long rancher, and his bedroom and kitchen are in two different zip codes.  Unfortunately, I'm momentarily breaking firewood quarantine laws every time I haul wood out of there, since one end of his driveway is in a different county than me.


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## OhioBurner© (Jan 14, 2017)

First time clicking on this thread. Ever since my ex moved out my usage dropped like a rock. I try to be energy efficient but still a long ways to go. Heck I still have some incandescent lights around. 2 fridge/freezers, electric hot water, and a computer that gets left on a lot. Through the winter I run about 4-6 fans usually, and of course the pellet stove. Luckily with the addition of the Woodstock Ideal Steel last winter I no longer use a blower for wood heat nor have I had to supplement with electric space heaters. Summer I only run a/c in the bedrooms and only when it's like close to 90º or so. Haven't run the clothes dryer in over a year!

My average monthly usage is around 650kWh in the last 12 months... lowest was 425kWh (July) and highest was 795kWh (Apr). Before the ex moved out I had a few over 2,000kWh and average just about 1500kWh.


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## Ashful (Jan 15, 2017)

I lived in the same house single and married, as well.  Usage went up roughly 3x - 4x per month, when she moved in.


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## Rockey (Jan 15, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Very funny!  You just reminded me that the buddy from whom I get all my wood has his house bisected by the county line.  Long rancher, and his bedroom and kitchen are in two different zip codes.  Unfortunately, I'm momentarily breaking firewood quarantine laws every time I haul wood out of there, since one end of his driveway is in a different county than me.



Your buddy is lucky. He can find the dividing line in his house and have his wife stand over the line with each foot on different sides of the line and take a picture. Then he can brag to all his friends that he has proof that his wifes boobs have separate zip codes


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## Highbeam (Jan 15, 2017)

Rockey said:


> Your buddy is lucky. He can find the dividing line in his house and have his wife stand over the line with each foot on different sides of the line and take a picture. Then he can brag to all his friends that he has proof that his wifes boobs have separate zip codes



Her bottom half as well!


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## Ashful (Jan 15, 2017)

And his kids can suffer endless, "yo mama's so fat" jokes.


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## Komatsu350 (Jan 16, 2017)

3000sqft ranch including basement well insulated in sw ohio, 3 people, wife is gone 24hrs home 48hrs, Dec 400kwh, Oct 240kwh, July 750kwh.


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## Rockey (Jan 16, 2017)

Komatsu350 said:


> 3000sqft ranch including basement well insulated in sw ohio, 3 people, wife is gone 24hrs home 48hrs, Dec 400kwh, Oct 240kwh, July 750kwh.



You live entirely too close to me to be bragging like that. I have friends in Okeana that will run extension cords from your house to theirs and make that meter spin. Lol  I used to stop down in the Okeana Marathon a couple times a week when we lived right down in Shandon.


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## Komatsu350 (Jan 17, 2017)

Rockey said:


> You live entirely too close to me to be bragging like that. I have friends in Okeana that will run extension cords from your house to theirs and make that meter spin. Lol  I used to stop down in the Okeana Marathon a couple times a week when we lived right down in Shandon.


Haha, I actually live closer to Shandon. Off Layhigh near morgan ross. I know my neighbor would like to run an extension cord, There bill was just over $400 last month. Ouch!


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## OhioBurner© (Jan 17, 2017)

Komatsu350 said:


> 3000sqft ranch including basement well insulated in sw ohio, 3 people, wife is gone 24hrs home 48hrs, Dec 400kwh, Oct 240kwh, July 750kwh.


Wow that is great for 3 people, I've never got down to 240kWh even shutting most of my breakers off (incl hot water heater) while I was gone for 2 weeks of the month! Gas water heater?


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## jebatty (Jan 18, 2017)

The annual usage report from our electric utility arrived yesterday. For 2016, our all-electric house (except heat from the wood stove) used an average of 249 kWh/month for general service, 482kWh/month for heating, and produced an average of 904kWh/month in PV power purchased by the utility under the net meter law. The PV system reports total PV power produced in 2016 at an average of 1,225kWh/month, which also means that an average of 321kWh/month of PV power was used on-site for general service purposes. For 2016 total general service usage was 6,840kWh, heating 5,784kWh, and PV produced 14,700kWh. On the graph, green is utility furnished general service kWh, orange is utility furnished heating kWh, and blue is utility purchased PV kWh.


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## Ashful (Jan 19, 2017)

So... they're paying you?


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## jebatty (Jan 19, 2017)

Yes ... but I have two other accounts and I transfer credits to cover part of the bills on the other accounts.


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## maple1 (Jan 19, 2017)

I recently found out our utility will buy excess back at the end of the year, at the normal rate they sell it. Which is around 0.15/kwh. Or that's what I read the website to say.

We have no incentives though - but have to say, the idea is growing on me...


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## Ashful (Jan 19, 2017)

Interesting.  Our our case, the transmission cost is almost the same as the generation cost.  I've never looked into it, but I'd have assumed they'd credit you generation cost while billing you transmission cost, for any surplus.


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## woodgeek (Jan 20, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Interesting.  Our our case, the transmission cost is almost the same as the generation cost.  I've never looked into it, but I'd have assumed they'd credit you generation cost while billing you transmission cost, for any surplus.



Pretty sure it doesn't work that way.  They sell your surplus to someone else, and they charge that person the retail rate...including the same transmission cost.  Except that with your solar the transmission is probably just across the street to your neighbors.

Most net metering arrangements require the retail rate for valuing your juice, but I think there is no consensus on whether the surplus need to be reimbursed at all.


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## maple1 (Jan 20, 2017)

We just have two components to our rates - base rate (around $11/mo), and energy at around 0.15/kwh.

If you get into TOD use, the base goes to $18, while the energy goes to 0.08 off-peak, stays at 0.15 'normal hours', and goes to 0.195 on-peak use. This time of the year, on-peak is 7am-12pm, and  4-11pm while off-peak is 11pm-7am. (Which makes it kind of hard to guage if trying to go TOD is really worth it - especially if your current total billings are only $100/mo, +/-. As of now, my answer is still no, for us.)

There is no transmission break-out.


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