# Have any of you transitioned to a minimalist lifestyle?



## SlyFerret (Feb 4, 2017)

Hi All!
I figured some of you in the woodburning community might have gone this route.

For a number of years now, my new year's resolution has been to simplify life.  In the past, I never actually made any changes, because it was such a vague idea and I had no real goal attached and no real driving force to make changes.

Last month, my wife and I watched a documentary on Netflix about minimalism and it resonated strongly with both of us.  We picked up a few books by the guys in the documentary and have been reading them together.

This time is different. I am completely burned out from work.  It is time to refocus on what really matters in life.  In addition to simply changing our buying/consumption patterns, we are considering downsizing to a much smaller house so that I can walk away from my high tech job and do something completely different.

Have any of you done it?  I'm looking for thoughts and insights from anyone who has done so, especially with young kids.

-SF


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## peakbagger (Feb 5, 2017)

Living in a rural area that also is resort destination I do on occasion see folks moving up to "woods" to live the simple life. A few succeed but for many more they don't succeed and they move away. I know a local unemployment counselor who was the office specialist in talking to folks who either were contemplating moving up here or had moved up here and she was the one that had to gently explain the reality of the move. Inevitably unless they come into the area with resources (money in the bank) so they don't have a mortgage and are willing to really down size their lifestyle they end up having to work twice as much to pay the bills. Especially with kids, health insurance is not optional, if you show up at hospital without it you will end up signing a promissory note which ultimately could take away any assets you have saved or own. Frequently I see the wife ends up with a low paying nursing type job so the family has benefits and the husband works the minimalist job. I also have seen more than few cases where the breadwinner gets seriously injured and is out of work where things fall apart. It can be tough if after a couple of years into it that one spouses goals don't line up with the other.

I will say that in my area even though its rural the voters do tend to support good schools, the facilities may not be state of the art but academically they are in the top 10%. Unlike in many areas where the public schools are the dumping grounds for those who cant afford a private school, there is no appreciable interest in private schools. Heck one of the locally educated kids  just ended up governor of Kentucky

The strange thing is for the vast majority of folks, there is no need to move to live a minimalist lifestyle, they just have to decide to stop keeping up with the Jones's which is a very powerful thing that most cant do. Sure two cars and a big house is convenient but folks live well with less, it just means that they may need to find a new set of friends as their old friends will be constantly encouraging them to raise their lifestyle. A piece of recommended reading that I expect you would think is not applicable is the book the "Millionaire Next Door". http://davidbeitler.com/temp/The Millionaire Next Door [Book]-MANTESH.PDF.pdf  You may not think it applies to your goals but a lot of it does as it advocates getting off the consumptive lifestyle that many people inadvertently fall into. 

If you haven't seen it, look around for a copy of the Harrison Ford movie the Mosquito Coast, definitely not one of his block busters but food for thought. Definitely minimalist to the extreme.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 5, 2017)

I think going this way often starts with small steps . . . and discovering if it works for you or not. 

For the past year my wife has not been working due to an injury . . . I wouldn't say we have a minimalist life style, but we have been fine financially. We also have not been very extravagant -- i.e. no vacations, no cable TV, etc.


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## Lloyd the redneck (Feb 5, 2017)

I used to live pretty minimally. An old 70's 20' camper that was a pos parked out under a tree behind the shop on the farm I worked for. No water or anything. The shop had a toilet and a shower but was a good walk in the middle of the night. No tv no internet. Worked sun up to much past sun down. Had my dirt bike and old car. Life was great. (Still is). Now I still try to get by with no frills , my wife and I have a little farm and drive old vehicles and don't buy anything new. We also decided for New Years to get busy and be as close to off the grid as possible. Mainly to save money and be better stewards of the environment.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 5, 2017)

Thanks for the insights so far.

Our house is not extravagant.  Was just shy of 1600 sqft when we bought it.  We added a detached garage and then finished the attached garage as well as some space that was previously an oversized unfinished laundry room.  That makes the house roughly 2000 sqft today.  As a percentage of income, mortgage, taxes, and insurance is about 17% of income.  Well below average already, but that is based on my remote job for a silicon valley tech company.  I'd like to switch industries and do something different and local.  I save aggressively and don't want to stop doing that just because I change careers.

We are currently single income.  My wife has been a stay at home mom for over 5 years now.  She is getting her children's book illustrator career going now so we will be back to two incomes soon.

We would stay in the area, but downsize to something about half this size, if we actually do move.  The house works very well for us, so I'm not sure something smaller could provide the same value to us unless we did a custom build or stumbled across something perfect.

Also, cars are paid off and have been for years.  Credit cards get paid off every month.  Overall, we already aren't the average American household, financially.  This is about further alligning our life and our priorities.

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## SlyFerret (Feb 5, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> I think going this way often starts with small steps . . . and discovering if it works for you or not.
> 
> For the past year my wife has not been working due to an injury . . . I wouldn't say we have a minimalist life style, but we have been fine financially. We also have not been very extravagant -- i.e. no vacations, no cable TV, etc.


That is part of it.  The minimalist lifestyle that I'm referring to centered around getting rid of things that don't actually add value to your life and focusing on only spending resources (money, time, etc...) on things that do add value.  You could consider it an application of lean concepts in personal life instead of industry.

Traveling, for many does add value, so minimizing elsewhere can actually better facilitate vacations.

We did get rid of our satellite TV service and actually removed the TV from the living room where the stove is.  We kept the TV in the kids play room, but only use it for OTA and Netflix/Hulu streaming.

-SF

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## SlyFerret (Feb 5, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> The strange thing is for the vast majority of folks, there is no need to move to live a minimalist lifestyle, they just have to decide to stop keeping up with the Jones's which is a very powerful thing that most cant do.



This is a huge part of it.  Breaking the cycle of consumption that results from the barrage of marketing that we are exposed to every day is critical to making the kind of deliberate purchasing decisions required by the minimalist lifestyle.

I haven't read The Millionaire Next Door yet, but I have heard of it.  Based on what I see in the table of contents, it is 100% applicable.  I'll add it to our reading list.  Thanks for the suggestion!

-SF

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## firefighterjake (Feb 5, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> That is part of it.  The minimalist lifestyle that I'm referring to centered around getting rid of things that don't actually add value to your life and focusing on only spending resources (money, time, etc...) on things that do add value.  You could consider it an application of lean concepts in personal life instead of industry.
> 
> Traveling, for many does add value, so minimizing elsewhere can actually better facilitate vacations.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you're well on your way then . . . and definitely living life more frugally and sensibly than many Americans.

I would suggest however that "value" is variable . . . one person may value travel (I do for example as I feel it is good to experience new things, cultures, etc.), but another might be happy not traveling and may value a new ATV or snowmobile for example . . . or value saving more money for retirement . . . or value the latest tech gizmo . . . or paying off their bills -- all of this instead of travel. Value is very subjective.


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## jatoxico (Feb 5, 2017)

peakbagger makes a lot of good points that resonate with me. Getting caught up in trying to impress others is a trap and any "positive" feelings that come from that motivation isn't a beast I want to feed.

I have family that chucked it all, or most of it. They now like to say that you don't own stuff, the stuff owns you.


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## peakbagger (Feb 5, 2017)

I don't have a lot of "Joneses" to keep up with. My long term friends tend to be the same.

Years ago I wrote up an excel spreadsheet to figure out how long it would take to pay off my mortgage if I made extra payments. It calculated the monthly principal and interest split on my payment. One time I was messing with it and put in a future date long after the mortgage was paid off, The results were how much I would have saved if I kept making the same payments,  it was a pretty big number. I did what I could to get the mortgage paid down and then swore off long term debt. The reality is that for most folks until they get the mortgage out of the way, long term savings is tough. Unfortunately the entire US system pushes the "get it now and make payments forever concept". I don't look at housing as an investment, sure I would like to make some cash if I ever sell but I just regard it as paying enough rent that at some point I don't have to pay rent anymore. I spent a couple of years sleeping on a couch in a dining room growing up as my parents would buy a house with an unfinished second floor and then finish it. I was just a kid but I learned helping my dad and it has served me well. I learned the basics on home repairs and it been very rare that I have ever had to hire anyone to fix things.  I had other friends who shared a bedroom with a sibling for years.  I expect some folks would regard this as child abuse these days but we survived.

The time value of money is some pretty basic math which many folks just don't understand. Back when I was a teenager I had a paper route for a couple of years. Over the years I bought some camping gear, a Schwinn 10 speed bike and $150 worth of shares of GTE phone company stock at my dads insistence. The camping gear is mostly long gone or worn out, the 10 speed is still in my garage but not used very often and the shares are now worth around $20K. I didn't buy any more shares on my own I just have let it sit and set it up for automatic reinvestment of  the dividends for 40 years. I did a similar thing with the proceeds of small IRA account from my first job. I just put it in safe diversified mutual fund and left it there. Its now at the point where I could retire a couple of years earlier on what is in the account.

I don't have any kids but did set up a college savings plan for my niece's kids. I set aside my spare change over the year and roll it up then cash it in once a year and make a contribution and usually make a contribution instead of Christmas presents. It wont cover an Ivy League education but in about 5 years it will make a good dent for a state school. The only thing I told my niece is her and her husband are the ones who decide which kid gets a share.

The great point was a few years back when I got laid off from a job and realized that I really didn't have to rush out and find a new job. By taking a few months off I ended up with a far better job. My priorities are different then yours but if you can make the jump off the merry go round now and live below your means by going minimal in a few years your options will really open up. If the kids are young they really aren't going to know the difference although you will on occasion need to explain some excessive birthday parties they inevitably will get invited to.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 5, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> I have family that chucked it all, or most of it. They now like to say that you don't own stuff, the stuff owns you.



That quote has come up in more than one of the books we have read recently.  It is very true, I think!

-SF

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## SlyFerret (Feb 5, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> I would suggest however that "value" is variable . . . one person may value travel (I do for example as I feel it is good to experience new things, cultures, etc.), but another might be happy not traveling and may value a new ATV or snowmobile for example . . . or value saving more money for retirement . . . or value the latest tech gizmo . . . or paying off their bills -- all of this instead of travel. Value is very subjective.



There is quite a bit of soul searching involved to really decide what value means to us.

The hard part is discerning whether or not that value comes from personal priorities or from external sources like marketing or "the Joneses" so to speak.

-SF



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## SlyFerret (Feb 5, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> live below your means by going minimal in a few years your options will really open up. If the kids are young they really aren't going to know the difference although you will on occasion need to explain some excessive birthday parties they inevitably will get invited to.



We have been living beneath out means for quite some time now.  It definitely makes things easier.

The kids are indeed young (3 and 5).  They will adjust to the changes I'm sure.

I'm curious how others who downsized significantly with kids went about determining how much house they really needed vs wanted.  That's an area where I have to make a decision that is less easily changed if wrong.  Sure, you can always move again, but I hate house shopping and moving.

-SF

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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 5, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> Hi All! The
> I figured some of you in the woodburning community might have gone this route.
> 
> For a number of years now, my new year's resolution has been to simplify life.  In the past, I never actually made any changes, because it was such a vague idea and I had no real goal attached and no real driving force to make changes.
> ...


Indeed! When I was in college I used to spend time reading about this type of lifestyle at the bookstore, and i subscribed to Mother Earth News, which was all about this. I knew then, I was headed in that direction.  All efforts have been made to get there as early as possible since.

 I second the recommendation of The Millionaire Next Door, it was required reading at my first job (as a stock broker, no less!), as the management wanted us know where to hunt for the money. Extremely valuable insights.

I adopted the lifestyle, as a working adult, that I had grown accustomed to as a poor college student.  I figured I was as happy as I could hope to be while in college, so chasing possessions would not improve on that. Minimalist all the way.

Additional recommendations: Living The Good Life by Scott and Helen Nearing, and the website Mr. Money Moustache.

Two things that I have concluded in this pursuit: You never really own real estate, you just rent it from the local municipality; and, health insurance is the single biggest thing in the way of independence.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 5, 2017)

Reading about warren buffet will give you some insights also.


Why move?  Pay off your mortgage and then reevaluate everything.  Start playing the game of how to reduce all expenses down to the minimum.    Then start pondering things like improving insulation to cut down bills further.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 6, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> There is quite a bit of soul searching involved to really decide what value means to us.
> 
> The hard part is discerning whether or not that value comes from personal priorities or from external sources like marketing or "the Joneses" so to speak.
> 
> ...



Very true . . . I am fortunate though as I have never been in an area or been around folks who were always chasing after the Joneses. While I would not consider myself frugal, I also am not one of those folks who always has to have the latest and greatest thing . . . which is probably why I am quite content with the flip phone I get from work and my wife has a Tracfone which she rarely uses unless on a trip or an emergency when the power goes out. 

For the record . . . I think travel is often worth the expense . . . especially if it enriches one's life by exposing one to nature's beauty (i.e. national and state parks), edifies one's mind (i.e. museums, historical sites) or simply allows a person to recharge their soul (i.e. sometimes you just gotta get away and de-stress.)


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## firefighterjake (Feb 6, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> We have been living beneath out means for quite some time now.  It definitely makes things easier.
> 
> The kids are indeed young (3 and 5).  They will adjust to the changes I'm sure.
> 
> ...



I don't have children, so take this with a grain of salt . . . but for me my childhood was a pretty good one . . . although looking back I could say we were lower middle class. What I remember is not that great gift I got on my 2nd birthday or that awesome Pong video game system (OK, I lied about that -- I remember getting that in a yard sale from my cousin) -- what I truly remember and cherish most vividly are the memories of the family going to Washington, DC and my dad getting hopelessly stuck in a Clark Griswold moment on the roundabout . . . playing hide and seek in the cornfields with my cousins in the fall . . . going out on a Christmas morning after an ice storm and riding a sled down the road outside the house with my brother since there was absolutely no traffic and the ice made the road into a luge track . . . and so on and so forth.


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## jatoxico (Feb 6, 2017)

For me though the idea of minimalism is not so much about where you live or the size of your house but is a mind set that has a lot to do with just not being wasteful. We moved when our kids were in grade school for the school district so taxes are high but housing is still around 12% of income.I repair what I can before throwing things out, we buy nice, but used cars cash to avoid debt and try not to make too many deposits in the landfill. I consider it a victory that our family of four only throws out one full garbage a week as opposed to some I see in my neighborhood that seem to toss out 3 cans of trash and a TV twice a week. Same people that got upside down in their mortgages when the market took a down turn.


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## peakbagger (Feb 6, 2017)

Extending Jakes observation is that most studies show that the best long term value are spending money on experiences not stuff. I know a few families who really concentrate on buying holiday gifts that are tools for experiences rather than short term entertainment.

Buy them a backpack instead of a Barbie.

I will say we had the old fashioned lego sets (standard blocks) versus the kits they sell now and had a couple of erector sets mixed into one box that got a lot of use. I think at least a few erector set pieces are probably buried in wall or keeping some plumbing hanging up in a few former houses.


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## Ashful (Feb 6, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> I'm curious how others who downsized significantly with kids went about determining how much house they really needed vs wanted.  That's an area where I have to make a decision that is less easily changed if wrong.  Sure, you can always move again, but I hate house shopping and moving.


I've never lived in a place where I can choose my house by it's size.  I'll never be accused of being minimalist, but I've always bought for location and setting, then modified the house to suit my needs.


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## sportbikerider78 (Feb 6, 2017)

For me, I think it would be easier to be a minimalist living in the city not the country.  You need much more to survive and be comfortable in the country than the city.  

Living in the country has greatly complicated my life, not simplified it.  I have chainsaws, wood splitters, snow blowers, leaf blowers, bigger mower, and spend more time outside doing maintenance related activities.  I'm also talking my way into a tractor..which I would love to have.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 6, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> For me, I think it would be easier to be a minimalist living in the city not the country.  You need much more to survive and be comfortable in the country than the city.
> 
> Living in the country has greatly complicated my life, not simplified it.  I have chainsaws, wood splitters, snow blowers, leaf blowers, bigger mower, and spend more time outside doing maintenance related activities.  I'm also talking my way into a tractor..which I would love to have.


I have brought up the idea of moving into town for that very reason.

-SF

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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 7, 2017)

Goo


sportbikerider78 said:


> For me, I think it would be easier to be a minimalist living in the city not the country.  You need much more to survive and be comfortable in the country than the city.
> 
> Living in the country has greatly complicated my life, not simplified it.  I have chainsaws, wood splitters, snow blowers, leaf blowers, bigger mower, and spend more time outside doing maintenance related activities.  I'm also talking my way into a tractor..which I would love to have.


Good point, after reading your post I realized how much stuff I've accumulated to manage the acreage.  It's all been acquired via gift, Craigslist, yardsale, and "Sunday night trash pickup", but it's still is in contrast to a minimalist lifestyle.  And I suppose the cords and cords of wood that I've scavenged that are scattered among the property also apply.  I think I'll have to think about this more and perhaps have a yard sale of my own this spring to consolidate.


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## Ashful (Feb 7, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> Goo
> 
> Good point, after reading your post I realized how much stuff I've accumulated to manage the acreage.  It's all been acquired via gift, Craigslist, yardsale, and "Sunday night trash pickup", but it's still is in contrast to a minimalist lifestyle.  And I suppose the cords and cords of wood that I've scavenged that are scattered among the property also apply.  I think I'll have to think about this more and perhaps have a yard sale of my own this spring to consolidate.


Church yard sales are a lifesaver, here.  I never want to bother with the effort of setting up my own (who has the time?), so all old stereo speakers, coffee tables, televisions, baby cribs, and the sort of stuff that might normally fill up your basement or attic get donated to the church yard sale each spring.  It helps them with their fundraisers, and gets it out of my house!


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## jatoxico (Feb 7, 2017)

I see the point about country vs city or more urban living but not sure I agree entirely. IMO having basic "stuff" that is used doesn't contradict the concept. Having 2 jet skis, a boat and a pool that never get used (guilty of pool) is not in line.

You guys have mentioned a few books I'd like to read. Maybe after reading more on the topic I'll change my tune.


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## sportbikerider78 (Feb 7, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> Goo
> 
> Good point, after reading your post I realized how much stuff I've accumulated to manage the acreage.  It's all been acquired via gift, Craigslist, yardsale, and "Sunday night trash pickup", but it's still is in contrast to a minimalist lifestyle.  And I suppose the cords and cords of wood that I've scavenged that are scattered among the property also apply.  I think I'll have to think about this more and perhaps have a yard sale of my own this spring to consolidate.



I'm 38 yrs old..this is my first house in the country.  I did not build it and had minimal time searching for a home with a new job and 8 month old at the same time.  

I will build my next home and design it and the property it sits on for minimal maintenance.  Hardscapes (not landscapes), small yard (big surrounding fields), in the woods (but not too much land cleared), rock around the foundation (to decrease weed wacking), minimal trees in my yard (zero raking of leaves), square yard to make more efficient mowing...ect.  I have given a great deal of thought about what my next house will be like.  Every aspect will be geared towards low maintenance.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 7, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> I see the point about country vs city or more urban living but not sure I agree entirely. IMO having basic "stuff" that is used doesn't contradict the concept. Having 2 jet skis, a boat and a pool that never get used (guilty of pool) is not in line.
> 
> You guys have mentioned a few books I'd like to read. Maybe after reading more on the topic I'll change my tune.


We really liked "Everything that remains" by the guys in the Netflix documentary that we watched.  We are reading "clutter free with kids" right now.  I think next up is "minimalism: living a meaningful life" and then "Essential essays by the minimalists".  "The millionaire next door" will be up soon too.

-SF

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## SlyFerret (Feb 7, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I will build my next home and design it and the property it sits on for minimal maintenance.  Hardscapes (not landscapes), small yard (big surrounding fields), in the woods (but not too much land cleared), rock around the foundation (to decrease weed wacking), minimal trees in my yard (zero raking of leaves), square yard to make more efficient mowing...ect.  I have given a great deal of thought about what my next house will be like.  Every aspect will be geared towards low maintenance.



I have been thinking a lot about this.

I've always said that the only thing I'd sell this house for is a log cabin in the woods.  I told my wife the other night that maybe we should go that route and design it just the way we want it in the process!

-SF


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## firefighterjake (Feb 7, 2017)

If you're looking for low maintenance I'm not sure a log cabin is the right way to go . . . although I know "minimalist life style" is not the same as "low maintenance life style." I know my Uncle has to occasionally re-chink his log cabin which seems like a bit of a pain to me . . . about as much as having to repaint a house, poly cedar shakes, etc.


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## jatoxico (Feb 7, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> the guys in the Netflix documentary that we watched.


Remember the name of the documentary?


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## SlyFerret (Feb 7, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> Remember the name of the documentary?


I think it was just called "minimalism".

-SF

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## jatoxico (Feb 8, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> I think it was just called "minimalism".
> 
> -SF
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


Found it thanks. And did a little reading and right off the bat I see _my_ natural tendency towards simplifying and minimalism has a strong anti-consumerism component. I realized long ago that if you never buy it or accumulate it you won't have to worry about stepping on it for 3 yrs before throwing it away and that despite what Madison Ave. says, the solution to every problem is not buying another gadget or potion.

Interested in further exploring these ideas by reading and listening to those who have thought and written on this topic, thanks for bringing it up.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 8, 2017)

For the ultimate in minimalization, check out Richard (Dick) Proenneke's Alone in The Wilderness (program), and/or One Man's Wilderness (book).  He even gave up women, children, neighbors.  While I'm not willing to go as far as he did, there is some appeal to what he did.  

He did have a wood stove that his brother built for him, and a slight firewood obsession, which was probably a healthy thing in his instance, as there was no backup!


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## Ashful (Feb 8, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> For the ultimate in minimalization, check out Richard (Dick) Proenneke's Alone in The Wilderness (program), and/or One Man's Wilderness (book).  He even gave up women, children, neighbors.  While I'm not willing to go as far as he did, there is some appeal to what he did.
> 
> He did have a wood stove that his brother built for him, and a slight firewood obsession, which was probably a healthy thing in his instance, as there was no backup!


Great story, and the first movie they made of his story is superb.  The subsequent movies and books also enjoyable, but to a lesser degree for me.  If you somehow missed it (you must have not tuned into PBS for a 10 year window, if you did), you need to see it!


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## jatoxico (Feb 8, 2017)

Seen it about 3 times. Interesting story, ditching a wife/GF would help unload a lot of stuff.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 8, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> For the ultimate in minimalization, check out Richard (Dick) Proenneke's Alone in The Wilderness (program), and/or One Man's Wilderness (book).  He even gave up women, children, neighbors.  While I'm not willing to go as far as he did, there is some appeal to what he did.
> 
> He did have a wood stove that his brother built for him, and a slight firewood obsession, which was probably a healthy thing in his instance, as there was no backup!


I've read the book, but I haven't seen the videos yet.  I need to.  He shot a lot of film and I really want to see the footage that shows what he described in his journals.

-SF

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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 8, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> Seen it about 3 times. Interesting story, ditching a wife/GF would help unload a lot of stuff.


True enough. But, there is that old saying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater!  

I've found that the wedding ring has transformed countless reasonable people into complete nutjobs. It's 2017. Isn't it time to put that old, outdated tradition to rest?


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## jharkin (Feb 9, 2017)

I would not call myself a minimalist, but I certainly dont do the keeping up with the Jones'es thing.  It a slippery slope - case in point being the fact that 2000 sq feet is considered a  starter house today when a generation ago 1500 was the norm for your average family of 4. 

If you like that Millionaire Next Door Book you might like some others from the Bogleheads (Jack Bogle fan group) reading list:

https://www.bogleheads.org/RecommendedReading.php
https://www.amazon.com/s/?search-alias=aps&tag=hearthamazon-20

I am a huge fan of the Bogle method - make the financial system work for you, have a plan a stick with it, keep your costs low and dont chase a quick profit, *live below your means*.

On the other extreme there is the Dave Ramsey cut the cord philosphy, and the real nutcases at MrMoneyMustash forum  who do the live in a shack, eat ramen noodles and ride a bike method to retire at 40....  No thanks, thats a little tooo 'minimal' for me.  I still want to enjoy life


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## Ashful (Feb 9, 2017)

jharkin said:


> I would not call myself a minimalist, but I certainly dont do the keeping up with the Jones'es thing.  It a slippery slope - case in point being the fact that 2000 sq feet is considered a  starter house today when a generation ago 1500 was the norm for your average family of 4.


I believe this had more to do with the cost of building, than any desire to live in cramped quarters.  Most of the 18th century homes still standing in my area are well over 5000 sq.ft., and while we know these are the better-built homes of wealthier farmers, it shows they were not interested in living small if they could afford otherwise.

Anything worth doing is worth over-doing.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 9, 2017)

jharkin said:


> I would not call myself a minimalist, but I certainly dont do the keeping up with the Jones'es thing.  It a slippery slope - case in point being the fact that 2000 sq feet is considered a  starter house today when a generation ago 1500 was the norm for your average family of 4.
> 
> If you like that Millionaire Next Door Book you might like some others from the Bogleheads (Jack Bogle fan group) reading list:
> 
> ...



Are you spying on me?  I just got done with cup o' noodles that I had for lunch. 

And you are right, many around me probably think me a nutjob, with five or more years worth of heating fuel stacked and piled around the yard, my enormous garden, my antique garden implements and wood hauler.  Come to think of it, they might be right!


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## jharkin (Feb 9, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I believe this had more to do with the cost of building, than any desire to live in cramped quarters.  Most of the 18th century homes still standing in my area are well over 5000 sq.ft., and while we know these are the better-built homes of wealthier farmers, it shows they were not interested in living small if they could afford otherwise.
> 
> Anything worth doing is worth over-doing.



Ash, you know as well as I do that those 5000sq ft homes where just as unattainable for working class folk in the 18th century as they are today.   The average family back then lived in a 2 room shack.

My house is nearly the same age as yours, its was only about 1000sq ft when it was built and most likely a farmer and his 8 kids lived here, all piled into one bed for warmth.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 9, 2017)

jharkin said:


> Ash, you know as well as I do that those 5000sq ft homes where just as unattainable for working class folk in the 18th century as they are today.   The average family back then lived in a 2 room shack.
> 
> My house is nearly the same age as yours, its was only about 1000sq ft when it was built and most likely a farmer and his 8 kids lived here, all piled into one bed for warmth.


You and me, both jharkin. I still have the old stone outhouse, too, although it is no longer used for its original purpose.  Only one in the neighborhood!


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## Jags (Feb 12, 2017)

Dunno - I don't get this "war on stuff" thing.  My stuff doesn't stop me from doing anything. It doesn't hold me back.  Its all paid for. Its nice to have when I want it.  I fiddle.  Everything from computers to metal working.  Gotta have tools (stuff) for that.  Making firewood takes "stuff". Building things takes "stuff".  I have about every tool known to man and I use them.  I don't see how eliminating this "stuff" will enriched my life. Without it, I wouldn't be able to do many of the things I enjoy. Minimalizing my world simply will not afford me the opportunity to do anything more than I already do.
I am not looking for a fight or an argument and have heard this mentioned before,but I honestly don't understand the position.


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## jatoxico (Feb 12, 2017)

At least for me, the idea is to not have unnecessary stuff (like knick knack collections) or overly "fancy" stuff when simple will do. That and not being wasteful. But I agree anything you're actively using doesn't fit _my_ definition. Others would disagree and argue the only reason you need most stuff is to take care of other stuff. There is some truth in that.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 12, 2017)

Jags said:


> Dunno - I don't get this "war on stuff" thing.  My stuff doesn't stop me from doing anything. It doesn't hold me back.  Its all paid for. Its nice to have when I want it.  I fiddle.  Everything from computers to metal working.  Gotta have tools (stuff) for that.  Making firewood takes "stuff". Building things takes "stuff".  I have about every tool known to man and I use them.  I don't see how eliminating this "stuff" will enriched my life. Without it, I wouldn't be able to do many of the things I enjoy. Minimalizing my world simply will not afford me the opportunity to do anything more than I already do.
> I am not looking for a fight or an argument and have heard this mentioned before,but I honestly don't understand the position.


I hear you, Jags. Both sides of the family are from agricultural backgrounds, and the amount of stuff that has been acquired over the years to farm and ranch is enormous.  But, despite the scope of the operations, and the underlying sophistication of the people running these large, complex, risky businesses, there is something about them that seems like it fits into this minimalist mindset.  No fancy houses, clothes, cars, attitudes, hidden agendas.  Just good, hardworking folks, where what you see is what you get.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 12, 2017)

Jags said:


> Dunno - I don't get this "war on stuff" thing.  My stuff doesn't stop me from doing anything. It doesn't hold me back.  Its all paid for. Its nice to have when I want it.  I fiddle.  Everything from computers to metal working.  Gotta have tools (stuff) for that.  Making firewood takes "stuff". Building things takes "stuff".  I have about every tool known to man and I use them.  I don't see how eliminating this "stuff" will enriched my life. Without it, I wouldn't be able to do many of the things I enjoy. Minimalizing my world simply will not afford me the opportunity to do anything more than I already do.
> I am not looking for a fight or an argument and have heard this mentioned before,but I honestly don't understand the position.



Ha!  Not a fight at all.  This has been a great thread so far.  Your post is no different!

It's about focusing on value in your life more than about getting rid of stuff.  Also, it isn't about not having tools to do the things you want to do and love to do.  That is just silly!  If those things are truly valuable to you, it is worth it!

I'm not talking about sitting in an empty room with nothing on the walls, practically no furniture, only 2 changes of clothes, one set of dishes, one skillet, and so on...

What it means to me is looking at spending and taking a harder look at our needs vs. wants.  It can be quite difficult to tell the difference some times.  Lots of people think luxury items are necessities.  My wife and I realized that we had started to lose sight of our real priorities.

Do I really need to buy that sweatshirt? Sure, it's cool, but in have 6 already.  Do I need to buy that new phone?  The one in have works fine.  How about that hot new truck?  The one I have looks and runs great.  Do I really need that new 4k smart TV?  I'm trying to watch less TV and be more productive with my time anyway.  Do I need to buy that new dining room set?  The table and chairs we have works just fine, it just isn't fancy.  The list goes on and on.

As far as existing stuff, I have a ton of stuff here that I don't need and don't use, and should have never bought in the first place.  If somebody needs it or could use it, I might as well hand it off.  Let them get some value out of it and get it out of my way at the same time.

I'm wondering if maybe the reason you don't get it is because it's something you just naturally do already.  If all the stuff you have are the tools to do the things you love and you don't really buy stuff you don't really need, that fits with this philosophy, even if it doesn't seem minimalist.

-SF

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 13, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> Ha!  Not a fight at all.  This has been a great thread so far.  Your post is no different!
> 
> It's about focusing on value in your life more than about getting rid of stuff.  Also, it isn't about not having tools to do the things you want to do and love to do.  That is just silly!  If those things are truly valuable to you, it is worth it!
> 
> ...


Awesome, Sly.  I think you nailed it here.

I think of it really as anti-materialism, the counterpoint to a culture that has replaced values with things as a direct result of the marketing machines that exist at every corporation on the face of the earth. 

Marketing is a well studied science, designed specifically to get people to think they need stuff that they really don't. It's a jedi mind trick. And it is specifically designed to make your wealth theirs.

The ultimate conclusion is the existing mcmansion kardashian culture that exists today.  It really turns it's most successful victims into slaves, as people end up having to work for a paycheck until they die to pay for crap that they bought that did not need when they were younger.

It's all about figuring out what it is that makes us truly happy as human beings, and focusing more fully on that. 

If you think that what makes you happy is "stuff", so be it. If you think enlightenment lies elsewhere, you might have better luck.


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## peakbagger (Feb 13, 2017)

If someone is a fan Alaska's Last Frontier (a very staged show with interesting characters), Otto Kilcher has a lot of stuff yet I expect someone would describe their lifestyle as minimalist.

Despite the premise of the show I expect that the homestead is far more of a hobby farm of a couple of retired brothers and a paid gig for their kids that allow them to live at the homestead.  (I do note that one son seems to have acquired a rather nice shop, and new boiler along with his recent high end boat project)


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 13, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> If someone is a fan Alaska's Last Frontier (a very staged show with interesting characters), Otto Kilcher has a lot of stuff yet I expect someone would describe their lifestyle as minimalist.
> 
> Despite the premise of the show I expect that the homestead is far more of a hobby farm of a couple of retired brothers and a paid gig for their kids that allow them to live at the homestead.  (I do note that one son seems to have acquired a rather nice shop, and new boiler along with his recent high end boat project)


I was thinking the same exact thing.  Otto sure has a lot of stuff, my favorite is that giant barge.


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## sportbikerider78 (Feb 13, 2017)

For me, it is a battle of materialism.  Stuff is just stuff.  Cars end up in the ground.  Homes rot and fall apart.  Tools rust and get lost.  You pass away and all you cared about is sold at a garage sale for pennies.  Your business collapses.  Your health deteriorates as you age.  

Happiness is not in stuff.  It is in experiences, loved ones, faith and many other things with no price.  

I'm an outright capitalist through and through.  That doesn't mean I believe consumerism or stuff makes people happy.  It really doesn't.  

In my mind, children and the positive experiences we give other people are our only legacy.


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## Jags (Feb 13, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> I'm wondering if maybe the reason you don't get it is because it's something you just naturally do already.



Hmmm...Sly, I think you might be on to something and maybe that's why I have difficulty in understanding.  I am not a complicated person.  Old truck (although looking to replace out of need and I pay cash), old house (1750 sqft).  I don't do fancy.  Just not my style.  I don't care what the Jones's are making payments on this month.  Outside of the house, everything is owned outright.  Retired at 47 and now doing the things that I want to do.  Just got back from TX to visit family and friends, etc.  Maybe I am already there and just don't know it.  But I have a lot of "stuff" and I guess that is the part that makes me scratch my head.  That stuff is what allows me to do half the stuff that makes me happy.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 13, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> For me, it is a battle of materialism.  Stuff is just stuff.  Cars end up in the ground.  Homes rot and fall apart.  Tools rust and get lost.  You pass away and all you cared about is sold at a garage sale for pennies.  Your business collapses.  Your health deteriorates as you age.
> 
> Happiness is not in stuff.  It is in experiences, loved ones, faith and many other things with no price.
> 
> ...



. . . and as my wife has said . . . for most folks, in two, maybe three generations after your death, all your name is to most folks is a name on a headstone or an entry in the family tree. After two or three generations, friends are usually long gone and even family members may only distantly (if at all) remember you and what your life was like.


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## Ashful (Feb 13, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> Do I really need to buy that sweatshirt? Sure, it's cool, but in have 6 already.  Do I need to buy that new phone?  The one in have works fine.  How about that hot new truck?  The one I have looks and runs great.  Do I really need that new 4k smart TV?  I'm trying to watch less TV and be more productive with my time anyway.  Do I need to buy that new dining room set?  The table and chairs we have works just fine, it just isn't fancy.  The list goes on and on.


I dig what you're saying in your post, but I'd rather watch Pixar's latest on my 70" flat screen than mom's old 27" CRT.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying the latest and greatest, and it doesn't need to fly in the face of your principles, if you do your due diligence and pass along the old TV's to someone who can use them.

I do want a hot car, big fancy house, and the latest ginormous TV... but I also work on moving out the stuff I don't need or use, to keep things relatively simple and clutter-free.  Don't confuse minimalism or simpler living with settling for less than the best of whatever you enjoy.

Of course, if you don't get joy from these things, then life is even simpler.  But I don't trust any guy who doesn't get joy from a nice car.


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## sportbikerider78 (Feb 13, 2017)

I'm with you there.  This is a struggle for me.  Things do bring me joy.  I think we all have to question why we work and what we work for in order to prioritize our life. 

I love cars, bikes and anything with power.  I am constantly trying to curb my needs and wants.

The way I affordably quench this thirst is by buying quality cars and bikes.  Even when they get older, they still start and run great.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 13, 2017)

Ashful said:


> But I don't trust any guy who doesn't get joy from a nice car.



I'm more a truck guy than a car guy.  If I had my way, I'd be driving a brand new lifted Silverado Z71 with all the goodies.  It would also keep me trapped in my current job even more. 

My two Harleys are staying though.  I absolutely can't live without those.

-SF


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## ispinwool (Feb 13, 2017)

There is so many differences of what folks consider 'minimalist'....we have 5 (mostly all grown up) kids that really didn't notice
the lack of designer shoes/clothes or that we didn't have 400 cable channels; dvds worked just fine.   
My kids heard the adage: "use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without" many many times.  Hand-me-downs were common
and we learned to sew/knit/MEND (so many people are astonished that I actually mend clothes! I consider it a necessity).  
Playing cards/board games/reading books took the place of the expensive "x-box" or "wii" that we couldn't afford. 
We also bought a fixer-upper for "cheap" ( mortgage free after the sale of our first fixer-upper) 
and spent 10 years fixing it up a little at a time.  Saturday night "date night" 
was usually spent strolling the hardware store with all the kids looking for sales. 
Most of our meat is from Pennsylvania woodland deer that my hubby butchers with the
help of the kids....they all LOVE going to school and telling their friends that they helped 
cut up a deer the night before! 
We get our 'free for the taking' firewood from a friend with a farm and lots of windfalls.

My advice would be to just do what you can.  Bloom where you're planted!


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 14, 2017)

Jags said:


> Hmmm...Sly, I think you might be on to something and maybe that's why I have difficulty in understanding.  I am not a complicated person.  Old truck (although looking to replace out of need and I pay cash), old house (1750 sqft).  I don't do fancy.  Just not my style.  I don't care what the Jones's are making payments on this month.  Outside of the house, everything is owned outright.  Retired at 47 and now doing the things that I want to do.  Just got back from TX to visit family and friends, etc.  Maybe I am already there and just don't know it.  But I have a lot of "stuff" and I guess that is the part that makes me scratch my head.  That stuff is what allows me to do half the stuff that makes me happy.


Yep, Jags, you are most certainly already there.  Being able to retire at 47 is a dead giveaway, and everything else that you describe fits the bill as well.


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2017)

I have to disagree with the "old truck" premise that several here have floated, as a means of simplification.  It's applicable across a wide range of life choices, the truck just being one example of many.

The things that keep me from spending time with my family are never the nice new shiny things.  Rather, it's the hours I spend on jobs like repairing my 31 year old tractor, my 20 year old chainsaws, and my 12 year old truck.  Splitting firewood may be my largest time-sink.  Self-sufficience, in all aspects, takes a lot of hours out of the day.


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## Jags (Feb 14, 2017)

Replacing the old truck with a shiny-er, new-er one will afford me a more reliable opportunity to hitch my wagon (in this case a bass boat) to it and take off for places I want to go.  It will virtually IMPROVE my lifestyle.


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## jatoxico (Feb 14, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I have to disagree with the "old truck" premise that several here have floated, as a means of simplification.  It's applicable across a wide range of life choices, the truck just being one example of many.
> 
> The things that keep me from spending time with my family are never the nice new shiny things.  Rather, it's the hours I spend on jobs like repairing my 31 year old tractor, my 20 year old chainsaws, and my 12 year old truck.  Splitting firewood may be my largest time-sink.  Self-sufficience, in all aspects, takes a lot of hours out of the day.



I think you always have to incorporate the underlying premise of living within your means. If the only way you can have the new truck and all the other goodies is to make payments, that locks you in and creates stress and mental clutter, at least for some. In that case I'd either not have the truck or would prefer doing a little work on what I could afford and pocket the difference but as always there's no free lunch and I don't think the ethic equates to easy, more like less stress (I know, talk to me when I can't get that frozen bolt loose).

Also don't forget less house and yard means less stuff needed to handle maintenance. If anyone likes having these things that's OK (although I intensely dislike seeing people driving around the neighborhood in their Nissan Armada, idiots) but many of the people espousing this ethic found they were not happy trying to keep the brass ring.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 14, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I have to disagree with the "old truck" premise that several here have floated, as a means of simplification.  It's applicable across a wide range of life choices, the truck just being one example of many.
> 
> The things that keep me from spending time with my family are never the nice new shiny things.  Rather, it's the hours I spend on jobs like repairing my 31 year old tractor, my 20 year old chainsaws, and my 12 year old truck.  Splitting firewood may be my largest time-sink.  Self-sufficience, in all aspects, takes a lot of hours out of the day.



If having the new truck/tractor/chainsaw, etc. requires one to work six more months of their life at a job that they don't like instead of family time or bass fishing, then it's a false economy. If you already have the means to afford new without working more of your precious days away, then I am in total agreement with your statement.  

That said, I have had precious hours spent with Dad keeping the old tractor running, hours that would not have been spent together otherwise.


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## Lloyd the redneck (Feb 14, 2017)

I would much rather spend time at home tinkering with my junk then being at work. And I'm self employed. Ha!


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## jatoxico (Feb 14, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> If having the new truck/tractor/chainsaw, etc. requires one to work six more months of their life at a job that they don't like instead of family time or bass fishing, then it's a false economy.



Unless its the...Canyonero.


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## SlyFerret (Feb 14, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I have to disagree with the "old truck" premise that several here have floated, as a means of simplification.  It's applicable across a wide range of life choices, the truck just being one example of many.
> 
> The things that keep me from spending time with my family are never the nice new shiny things.  Rather, it's the hours I spend on jobs like repairing my 31 year old tractor, my 20 year old chainsaws, and my 12 year old truck.  Splitting firewood may be my largest time-sink.  Self-sufficience, in all aspects, takes a lot of hours out of the day.



Good point.  The cost of an item is more than just money.  It is the time spent maintaining it.  I mentioned this about the house earlier.  There is a trade off where the time spent maintaining something, and the opportunity cost of that time outweighs the monetary cost of buying a newer item.

In my case, my 2004 Silverado has been really reliable, runs great, and has needed very little in the way of repairs.  If it gets to the point where it is bleeding me dry with repairs or requiring me to spend an inordinate amount of time wrenching on it, it would absolutely be worth replacing with a newer truck.

It is also worth noting that a lot of us here enjoy the time we spend working on things in the garage or splitting wood, etc... so there is a positive value to those things in our lives.

-SF


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2017)

SlyFerret said:


> It is also worth noting that a lot of us here enjoy the time we spend working on things in the garage or splitting wood, etc... so there is a positive value to those things in our lives.


Definitely.  These jobs are a great escape for anyone with a regular desk job, even better if you can convince the family to participate in them with you, but I have not been successful on that front.


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## Dmitry (Feb 20, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Definitely.  These jobs are a great escape for anyone with a regular desk job, even better if you can convince the family to participate in them with you, but I have not been successful on that front.


I stacked  firewood in an ugly way in a backyard and my wife does  it since then. may be you should try it. That's was her first step to live simpler life. It keeps her from shopping and substitutes gym workout.,


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## Ashful (Feb 21, 2017)

That's a good idea, Dmitry, but you must consider the personality types of the parties involved.  I'm the OCD nut in our relationship, she'd not even notice if the wood were stacked ugly... she doesn't even notice when the amount of wood in the back yard changes by six cords at a time.


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## Sprinter (Feb 23, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> If you're looking for low maintenance I'm not sure a log cabin is the right way to go . . . although I know "minimalist life style" is not the same as "low maintenance life style." I know my Uncle has to occasionally re-chink his log cabin which seems like a bit of a pain to me . . . about as much as having to repaint a house, poly cedar shakes, etc.


Agree.  I've looked into the log house thing in the past, and have toured a few while looking for a new place.  It seems "cool" and all, but no where near low maintenance.  They also don't seem to re-sell very easily either.  Most of the ones I've looked at were having dry rot problems, too.


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## Sprinter (Feb 23, 2017)

Jags said:


> Hmmm...Sly, I think you might be on to something and maybe that's why I have difficulty in understanding.  I am not a complicated person.  Old truck (although looking to replace out of need and I pay cash), old house (1750 sqft).  I don't do fancy.  Just not my style.  I don't care what the Jones's are making payments on this month.  Outside of the house, everything is owned outright.  Retired at 47 and now doing the things that I want to do.  Just got back from TX to visit family and friends, etc.  Maybe I am already there and just don't know it.  But I have a lot of "stuff" and I guess that is the part that makes me scratch my head.  That stuff is what allows me to do half the stuff that makes me happy.


And I thought I retired early!  That makes a big difference.  In retirement, you must stay busy to stay happy and alive.  I'm in the country with country stuff and chores, and fix-it projects, but all those things are not problematic, they just keep me going.  If I were still working full-time and a half like I did, it would be much more stressful.


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## Sprinter (Feb 23, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> . . . and as my wife has said . . . for most folks, in two, maybe three generations after your death, all your name is to most folks is a name on a headstone or an entry in the family tree. After two or three generations, friends are usually long gone and even family members may only distantly (if at all) remember you and what your life was like.


Rather a maudlin thought, but too true.  To me, it means "don't take yourself too seriously!"


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## HisTreeNut (Mar 11, 2017)

Just read through this thread and the wifey an I are not "minimalists" but to coin a term..."simplists."  We, like a lot of you, live within our means, are not extravagant, buy quality things [to avoid buying quantities of things], and try only to have what we need, when we need it.  We live virtually debt free and do without  a lot of unnecessary things.
Really, that is the point of minimalism and living simply.  Figure out what are needs and what are wants...cut out the wants.  For some people, that is living off-grid, in a tiny house, making everything they use.  For us, it is small town life, for others, it will be suburbia, or city life.  One choice is not any better or worse than any other in that all people are different.  The key for us is having what we enjoy and enjoying what we have...in other words, living.  God gave me a bunch of talents & I am using them to the best of my ability.  I hope and pray my kids see this more than anything else.   
We are living simply and the best that we can do, given the choices we have made.  For each of us, this simple life will be different, and this what makes life interesting, at least for me anyway.


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## SlyFerret (Mar 11, 2017)

HisTreeNut said:


> Just read through this thread and the wifey an I are not "minimalists" but to coin a term..."simplists."  We, like a lot of you, live within our means, are not extravagant, buy quality things [to avoid buying quantities of things], and try only to have what we need, when we need it.  We live virtually debt free and do without  a lot of unnecessary things.
> Really, that is the point of minimalism and living simply.  Figure out what are needs and what are wants...cut out the wants.  For some people, that is living off-grid, in a tiny house, making everything they use.  For us, it is small town life, for others, it will be suburbia, or city life.  One choice is not any better or worse than any other in that all people are different.  The key for us is having what we enjoy and enjoying what we have...in other words, living.  God gave me a bunch of talents & I am using them to the best of my ability.  I hope and pray my kids see this more than anything else.
> We are living simply and the best that we can do, given the choices we have made.  For each of us, this simple life will be different, and this what makes life interesting, at least for me anyway.


I like this new term.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk


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## RobbieB (Mar 11, 2017)

When I was working and scrimping & saving I was pretty frugal.  Built up a nice retirement stash.  House is paid off, no debt.

So now I'm livin' large!  Wagyu beef, Maine lobster tails flown in next day air.  Hotels with Jacuzzi's in the room, first class airfare.

Nothing like a fifty dollar lunch at the sushi bar -


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## Lake Girl (Mar 14, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> True enough. But, there is that old saying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater!
> 
> I've found that the wedding ring has transformed countless reasonable people into complete nutjobs. It's 2017. Isn't it time to put that old, outdated tradition to rest?


Depends on who you marry and how flexible you are in living with others ... 30 years, 6 children later and we still like each other  Chances are the "nutjobs" were always "nutjobs" but in cognito.  If one is rigid in their expectations, you may have a problem...

Our house is just under 2000 sq foot and housed 8 people.  The bedrooms are not huge but, besides Hubby and I, the twins were the only ones that had to share a room.  Once the oldest went to university, they got their own rooms too.  I have been decluttering the house lately but there are some items from their childhood that will not go away ... the wall of books, the legos, some dolls and the boardgames will remain for when grandkids come to visit and need something to do on a rainy day.

Living out in the boonies has it's challenges... no grocery store around the corner so you have to become organized in your meal planning, know your consumption and have storage.  The usual with children ... the school, doctor, dentist, after school activities become more time consuming with a 1/2 hour to hour drive time one way.  We minimized on the activities to one at a time ... our girls took ballet/dance for about 12 years; some of the boys did tae kwon do for many years with a few soccer/baseball seasons thrown in.  We also stayed away from the big ticket sports ... hockey locally ... with price tags on gear and then travel for games away.  With the dance and tae kwon do, travel to competitive events was once or twice a year.  There are some children who have so many activities, they have no time to just be ... or dream.  Friends were always welcome and actually reduced the sibling fights!

Living at the lake has involved water toys ... simple noodles to boats.  Again, expectations and realities can be managed.  When the kids were little, a good chunk of time was spent on beach duty.  Some of the kids would go off for hours in the canoe to explore (life jackets and let me know what general direction though!)  Winter time - snow shoes, skis, sleds are far cheaper than snowmachines, excellent physical health promoters.  Yes we do have the snowmachines but they are the oldies but goodies.  Neighbour who bought a pontoon boat only goes out once or twice a year.  Big investment for little return...

The children have seen first-hand why quality of items is more important than quantity ...  They each have a dresser that was a hand-me-down made from real wood from their great grandparents' households (some were pretty sad when they got here and needed some TLC).  The desks or bookcases that were bought for short term need are long gone due to the particle board content.  You may pay more initially but it is bought once and done.  We bought they oldest boys a bunk bed for our old house ... metal frame that lasted about 4 years before noticing cracks, etc.  For the twins, I built a wood bunk bed that is in storage waiting for the next round.

Bottom line ... choices and planning.

As to your job, is it one that never truly gives you a break?  On call 24/7?  Do you work from one specific room in your home or anywhere/everywhere?  Is it minimalism you are shooting for or distinct separation between home life/work life?


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## Lake Girl (Mar 14, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I have to disagree with the "old truck" premise that several here have floated, as a means of simplification. It's applicable across a wide range of life choices, the truck just being one example of many.


Kind of a vicious cycle ... new & shiny that you can't repair and are at the mercy of the dealership on costs or old & reliable that with some time and a few parts do their job.  The Kubota we bought had to have the dash replaced by year 2 due to a buildup of condensation under the glass that corroded the ignition ... an outside piece of equipment that couldn't handle being outside.  New and still needed repair  Dash barely on warranty but either had to do-it-ourselves or trailer it in to the dealer 1/2 hour away.  Lost time either way ....


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## Lloyd the redneck (Mar 14, 2017)

Lake girl , my wife and I were discussing the same things yesterday on our 5 hour drive home from the inlaws. I agree with you 100%


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## Lake Girl (Mar 14, 2017)

Lake Girl said:


> Is it minimalism you are shooting for or distinct separation between home life/work life?


Since your type of work at your location is fairly solitary, the other part of that thought ... are you OK working solo or do you miss the physical presence of colleagues?


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## peakbagger (Mar 14, 2017)

I never thought in my prior career that I had the option of working from home but lucked out  8 years ago when I got my current job which is work from a home office up in the woods. Prior to this job I did a short stint in "cube farm" engineering office and don't think I would have survived it much longer if the company hadn't gone bankrupt. Even with headphones and constant tunes playing I still heard other folks and trying to have phone conversation was hopeless unless I could borrow an unoccupied office. I don't think I could ever go back to an office environment again and luckily I wont ever have to due to my simple lifestyle (supported by high tech internet and telecons).

I do replace the socializing around the coffee machine with posting on web forums like these. Not the same as face to face but it does help. Note I am single no kids and no animals underfoot. My boss actually rents an office rather than work at home as he had all three and couldn't get work done due to constant interruptions.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 14, 2017)

Lake Girl said:


> Depends on who you marry and how flexible you are in living with others ... 30 years, 6 children later and we still like each other  Chances are the "nutjobs" were always "nutjobs" but in cognito.  If one is rigid in their expectations, you may have a problem...
> 
> Our house is just under 2000 sq foot and housed 8 people.  The bedrooms are not huge but, besides Hubby and I, the twins were the only ones that had to share a room.  Once the oldest went to university, they got their own rooms too.  I have been decluttering the house lately but there are some items from their childhood that will not go away ... the wall of books, the legos, some dolls and the boardgames will remain for when grandkids come to visit and need something to do on a rainy day.
> 
> ...


I am always in awe of folks who can manage large families and successful relationships, marriage included. I can barely keep it together for myself!   I am shocked it took so long for anyone to reply to that provacative post.I totally agree that rigid expectations are a major problem. 

And, I think your point about work is spot on. My admin at work refuses to download the app on her phone that would allow her to do work stuff, just so she keeps a healthy separation b/t work and personal. I don't have a choice, so I'm always just one tab away from work, even when I'm here maxin and relaxin on Hearth. I think this new state of affairs is going to cause an early end to many of us.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 14, 2017)

Lake Girl said:


> Kind of a vicious cycle ... new & shiny that you can't repair and are at the mercy of the dealership on costs or old & reliable that with some time and a few parts do their job.  The Kubota we bought had to have the dash replaced by year 2 due to a buildup of condensation under the glass that corroded the ignition ... an outside piece of equipment that couldn't handle being outside.  New and still needed repair  Dash barely on warranty but either had to do-it-ourselves or trailer it in to the dealer 1/2 hour away.  Lost time either way ....


We just bought a new washer and dryer not long ago. The washer made it through 10 loads before it gave up the ghost. The warranty repair guy came out, and it was the "board" whatever that means (computer chips and stuff that controls everything, I believe). So the company refunded our money + $100 for the trouble. The nice repair guy told us that he sees this frequently with the new stuff, unfixable. He said the old stuff runs forever, and can be repaired.

So, now we have another new washer, and I have a bunch of sheet metal, a stainless steel tub with holes in it, a practically new electric motor, and a solenoid valve or two to play with.


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## Lloyd the redneck (Mar 14, 2017)

The wash tubs make great patio fireplaces


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## georgepds (Mar 24, 2017)

I have a house.. which,imo, is far from minimalist

In my early 30s I sold everything and took a job in Paris. When I returned I had no place to stay so I couch surfed. 

Couch surfing is ok, but I recommend the house


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## georgepds (Mar 24, 2017)

That said.. I live on the shore. Had a motor boat for awhile and was a slave to the motor. Have a kayak now and see more of the basin than I ever did in the motorboat


I'm a firm believer in the adage you don't own things.. things own you.

I'm a kayak minimalist


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## Jags (Mar 25, 2017)

You and the old owner of this place would get along quite nicely.  Durn hippies...


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## Lake Girl (Mar 25, 2017)

georgepds said:


> That said.. I live on the shore. Had a motor boat for awhile and was a slave to the motor. Have a kayak now and see more of the basin than I ever did in the motorboat
> 
> 
> I'm a firm believer in the adage you don't own things.. things own you.
> ...


We're definitely not minimalists here ...3 kayaks, 2 canoes, 3 aluminum skiffs w/motors.  Since we had 6 kids, multiple skiffs were necessary if we were spending the day on the lake.  Could have gone with a bigger boat but like the flexibility of the smaller ones in terms of where we can go, how many are going and how we get there.  The canoes have been lonely lately but the one made an excellent beverage cooler when filled with ice!  Backyard wedding a couple of years ago and wanted to have the beverages self service.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2017)

Lake Girl said:


> We're definitely not minimalists here ...Since we had 6 kids


'nuff said.


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## HisTreeNut (Mar 25, 2017)

We have 7 by God's grace...and number 8 is due in about 1 month and 3 days.  God has quite the sense of humor.
Can't say we're minimalists but simplists...because simple is better and we really do not have much of a choice.


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## Lake Girl (Mar 25, 2017)

It pays if you have a sense of humour too ... can't sweat the small stuff with a large family.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 25, 2017)

Lake Girl said:


> It pays if you have a sense of humour too ... can't sweat the small stuff with a large family.


Wonderful advice, even if no family at all!


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## georgepds (Mar 27, 2017)

Don't know if "it counts".. but when I got out of college I hiked the bottom half of the AT. All I owned was on my back.. roughly 15 pounds of gear and 15 pounds of food per week.  Hiked the entire summer of '73 and made it from Springer Mt, Ga to Harpers Ferry W Va

My hiking partner and I ran out of cash at Perrisburg Va. She got a job plucking chickens, I got a job working a road crew. We did this for two weeks and then got back on the trail. Made friends with a road crew guy called Squirrel.. who was on parole for murder. He took a shine to me because I did not curse ( to be honest I was afraid to offend, at the time I was 130 pounds soaking wet, most of it leg muscle). We went to to a couple of revivals with his family out in the back woods, trying to find the right path for Squirrel

I remember my friend David looking at my pack and saying.. that's all you need

Minimalist.. you can do it, but it's  lot easier when you are young. As a card carrying geezer I really like a roof over my head. Back in the day it was fun waking to a foot of snow on my sleeping bag, and my boots chewed out by porcupines... but my idea of fun, or at least comfort,  has changed


Have any of you read a Kippling story called "The Miracle of Purun Bhagat".. It's about a high ranking Indian minister who, at the end of life, takes up the beggars bowl and finds peace among the animals .. A sort of far east minimalist


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 27, 2017)

georgepds said:


> Don't know if "it counts".. but when I got out of college I hiked the bottom half of the AT. All I owned was on my back.. roughly 15 pounds of gear and 15 pounds of food per week.  Hiked the entire summer of '73 and made it from Springer Mt, Ga to Harpers Ferry W Va
> 
> My hiking partner and I ran out of cash at Perrisburg Va. She got a job plucking chickens, I got a job working a road crew. We did this for two weeks and then got back on the trail. Made friends with a road crew guy called Squirrel.. who was on parole for murder. He took a shine to me because I did not curse ( to be honest I was afraid to offend, at the time I was 130 pounds soaking wet, most of it leg muscle). We went to to a couple of revivals with his family out in the back woods, trying to find the right path for Squirrel
> 
> ...


Sounds like a life well lived to me.

Someone once gave me the advice to maintain the lifestyle that I'd grown accustomed to as a college student. As I was doubtful that happiness had much more room to blossom from my college days, I've more or less followed that advice.

Still regret not hiking one of the great trails, or backpacking Europe when I was younger.


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## Ashful (Mar 28, 2017)

ED 3000 said:


> Sounds like a life well lived to me.
> 
> Someone once gave me the advice to maintain the lifestyle that I'd grown accustomed to as a college student. As I was doubtful that happiness had much more room to blossom from my college days, I've more or less followed that advice.
> 
> Still regret not hiking one of the great trails, or backpacking Europe when I was younger.


I don't know about that.  Two of my greatest pleasures are fast cars and fast boats, both things I could not afford as a college student, or for at least a decade after.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 28, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I don't know about that.  Two of my greatest pleasures are fast cars and fast boats, both things I could not afford as a college student, or for at least a decade after.


Yep, it's definitely not for everyone.

I have friends with fast boats and cars, taking a ride with them once in a while has been enough for me. I'd like to take a Tesla out to see how it is at some point, but I'd probably even drive that slow. I even got rid of my motorcycle a long time ago and haven't looked back.


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## peakbagger (Mar 29, 2017)

I just got my copy of the Berkshire Hathaway Annual Report (No I don't own A shares, wish I did have a few at close to $250,000 each, but I do have a few B shares) and forgot how good his annual letters are. http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/2016ltr.pdf. These are definitely worth a read as he lays out fairly complex financial concepts in fairly simple to understand language. Note his reference to John C Bogle and how investing in index mutual funds are the way to go. If I was going to buy a child a stock for the long term I would buy a Berkshire B share.

This applies to minimalist lifestyle for many in that if they do live under their means and save a lot, the logical next thing to do is invest their savings so they will grow. Sure everyone needs an emergency fund in the bank for short term emergencies but its a losers game to just keep your savings for a future retirement (more than five years out) in anything but a mix of equities and bonds. I realize a lot of folks think the local Edward Jones rep is their  best buddy but he gets a commission on everything they buy and sell. When he calls you up and does you a favor by suggesting you move out of one fund into an other because the market has changed that's money in his pocket on both transactions. If you stick with Bogle's and Buffett's suggestion, you buy an index fund or two from Vanguard and let them sit for the long term. The reason I mention Vanguard is that unlike any other investment firm they are run as a real mutual company, they have no stockholders to send profits to, all their profits go to reducing the cost of their funds. They consistently have the lowest expense ratio (frequently 80% less) which is the way to go for long term investing.  Some of the big stockholder owned firms try to match Vanguard expense ratios on occasion as they don't have choice but somehow somewhere they are going to extract a profit out of you.

Note I used Edwards Jones as an example as they specialize in recruiting local good old boys that have good contacts with the local financially challenged population (like former factory workers who end up with IRAs and lump sum distributions), and then train the guy to use his contacts to service those folks. They aren't crooks, they just charge fees where in most cases there are far better ways to invest at lower costs. Other brokers target other parts of the population. If you haven't seen the Wolf on Wall Street its worth a watch (be aware it has the record for the most number of expletives of any main stream movie, definitely not kid friendly!).


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## Lloyd the redneck (Mar 29, 2017)

Stock markets are a joke. For one I'm ignorant and don't understand that stuff. I prefer a solid investment. Things you can hold in your hand. Real estate , collector cars&tractors. That sort of thing. And my pocket money investing has yielded me much better than the stock market.


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## Ashful (Mar 29, 2017)

Lloyd the redneck said:


> Stock markets are a joke. For one I'm ignorant and don't understand that stuff. I prefer a solid investment. Things you can hold in your hand. Real estate , collector cars&tractors. That sort of thing. And my pocket money investing has yielded me much better than the stock market.



There's nothing wrong with investing in what you know, Lloyd.  The trouble is that, for the average person, building a retirement's saving in tractors is going to require quite a bit of space.  You could have one very, very expensive collector car, I suppose... but that's hardly a diversified or protected asset.

If you follow typical guides of having 8x your annual salary in retirement savings by age 65, that could mean a ship load of tractors, or a small fleet of relatively expensive autos.  You also better hope that the autos you have chosen don't fall out of popularity at the time you need to sell them, as we know these things have limited cycles of popularity and worth.


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## peakbagger (Mar 29, 2017)

Generally assets are liquid or illiquid, liquid means there is ready market where if you need the cash there is someone willing to pay you for it. Illiquid assets don't have a good market. If things get tight the market drops out and if you can find a buyer you are going to take a significant hit. There is also the possibility that during storage the illiquid assets get damaged. I have seen two car collections seriously damaged with roofs collapsed. Overnight the values plummeted and in both cases there was no insurance.

Generally anyone who has bad things to say about the stock market is making fundamental mistakes (as Mr Buffet and Mr Bogle point out), Most folks buy high and sell low. They buy stocks on a whim (or from hot tip) but they really are gambling, the average small investor really shouldn't be in individual stocks until they really understand the game and even then they are gambling. Berkshire Hathaway is a stock but because of its size portfolio and governance it actually is closer to a balanced mutual fund. I own two company stocks, Verizon that I bought when I was a teen and Berkshire that I bought a couple of years ago. If both go to zero its not going to kill me.

Gamblers always will tell you about their winnings but rarely about their losses. Just like a broken clock reads correctly twice a day, a stock advisor is bound to get lucky occasionally and when they don't, they disappear for a few years and then come back like Robert Kiyosaki (who eventually admitted he made up the rich dad). If someone invests for the long haul, which is generally defined by a minimum period of 5 years in a balanced portfolio of stocks like an index fund, the vast majority of the time they will make more money in equities than any alternative.


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## georgepds (Mar 29, 2017)

Lloyd the redneck said:


> Stock markets are a joke. For one I'm ignorant and don't understand that stuff. I prefer a solid investment. Things you can hold in your hand. Real estate , collector cars&tractors. That sort of thing. And my pocket money investing has yielded me much better than the stock market.



Not to be a wise guy.. but what is your rate of return ? My best guess is it's really hard to answer for collectibles, and probably depends a whole lot on how you value the stuff you have not sold.

That said, it's your money and you should keep it where you are comfortable. Probably wont feed you in old age, but if you learn to repair them, that'll help.  I agree with others that the stock market is best for increasing capital.. but  seeing a third of your worth disappear in a couple of days is not for everyone. It happened in the crash of 89, the dot com bust of 2001, and the more recent financial crisis of 2008.

Doesn't bother me, I've seen it go down and come back up , but it's definitely not for everyone. There's where religious training really comes in handy. If you can loose a third of your worth and say to yourself it's just a means, and not an end ( or maybe it's just a distraction from things that really matter)  then you're well on your way to being a candidate for the market.

If, OTOH, it winds your guts up in knots and you loose sleep over it, I say  stick to tractors.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 29, 2017)

DON'T COME TO THIS SITE  FOR ADVICE ON HOW TO MANAGE YOUR ASSETS.

Other than your heating assets.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 29, 2017)

Would this be a more Amish-type lifestyle?  If so, you pellet and boiler people, and yea, insert people are OUT. 
Do they really cut wood with hand saws?  Fuggedaboudit.


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## georgepds (Mar 30, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> Would this be a more Amish-type lifestyle?  If so, you pellet and boiler people, and yea, insert people are OUT.
> Do they really cut wood with hand saws?  Fuggedaboudit.




Nah... they're minimalist.. they rip it apart bare handed


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## firefighterjake (Mar 30, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> Would this be a more Amish-type lifestyle?  If so, you pellet and boiler people, and yea, insert people are OUT.
> Do they really cut wood with hand saws?  Fuggedaboudit.



HehHeh . . . you should meet my Amish neighbors.

Their shop is kept warm with an indoor wood-fired boiler. They use batteries, wind and solar to keep the batteries charged up . . . and have a large diesel engine when the wind and solar are lacking.

P.S. They also have a pair of nice Stihl chainsaws as well . . . and have access to a Super Split (or clone . . . I'm not sure which) woodsplitter. And yes . . . they really are Amish. Nice folks too. Invited me to the meeting house Tuesday evening for a presentation on the Dutch Anabaptist Movement Leaders and a discussion on how their movement was different from the Swiss Anabaptist Movement of the 1500s.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 30, 2017)

georgepds said:


> Not to be a wise guy.. but what is your rate of return ? My best guess is it's really hard to answer for collectibles, and probably depends a whole lot on how you value the stuff you have not sold.
> 
> That said, it's your money and you should keep it where you are comfortable. Probably wont feed you in old age, but if you learn to repair them, that'll help.  I agree with others that the stock market is best for increasing capital.. but  seeing a third of your worth disappear in a couple of days is not for everyone. It happened in the crash of 89, the dot com bust of 2001, and the more recent financial crisis of 2008.
> 
> Doesn't bother me, I've seen it go down and come back up , but it's definitely not for everyone. There's where religious training really comes in handy. If you can loose a third of your worth and say to yourself it's just a means, and not an end ( or maybe it's just a distraction from things that really matter)  then you're well on your way to being a candidate for the market.



Some things always have value..some things don't.  This is the first time in human history that we are accumulating great wealth in banks that have our money somewhere very far away.  The shift away from pensions and towards 401k's only exacerbates the issue.  We don't have it in land, equipment, family homes (that we own), and other things that grow and create wealth.  This makes us very vulnerable to world affairs, markets and manipulated interest rates.

Interesting times.  I'm the type of guy that takes a little of this and a little of that to even things out in retirement planning.  I save a pretty good chunk of my salary for my 401k.  I spend on things we like as a family..and some toys of course.
Best retirement plan?  Marry a girl that can make some money after the kids are out of the house.


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## Chas0218 (Mar 30, 2017)

I like to think my family lives off the land with modern day conveniences. We eat majority venison and vegetables from our garden. I'm trying to become more sustainable possibly adding a solar astray or 2 to our home. I would like to depend less on the the conglomerates and more on my family all while living comfortably. If crap hit the fan and something catastrophic happened i would like to be able to survive. With all this talk of North Korea wanting to bring down the US it isn't good. The allies of NK being Russia and China things can go badly quick. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 30, 2017)

I feel like i live a minimalist lifestyle because we do quite well on a very low income for a 4 person household by most standards. I am self employed ,my business supplies a decent retirement because its an investment type business but not a lot of disposable income in the meantime. Wife stays home with 2 small kids so one earner houshold. We have a large 3000 SF home 2 cars(trucks) take vacations occasionally and eat out  as well.
We just dont buy things we dont need, or waste money on unnecessary luxuries like cable although we have 4 big screen TVS our total tv bill is only about $30 a month. Our biggest monthly expense is food purchased at farmers markets and grocery stores. Next to that is electric which i have cut from $175 month to about $110 over the course of a year.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 31, 2017)

Was thinking about building a small cabin and outfit it like the pioneers would ,oil lights ,pump handle by the sink ,wood stove ect ,.  For a second home type of thing to see how viable it is.  I guess having a second home is not reall a minimalist lifestyle ,but you have to try it first. I could always rent it to tourists with that pioneer theme if i dont use it much.


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## sportbikerider78 (Mar 31, 2017)

Lets not forget that living off the land friggen sucks.  That is why we have modern things like health care, leather couches, refrigeration and heating.  Because its really nice.


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## Lake Girl (Mar 31, 2017)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Was thinking about building a small cabin and outfit it like the pioneers would ,oil lights ,pump handle by the sink ,wood stove ect ,.  For a second home type of thing to see how viable it is.  I guess having a second home is not reall a minimalist lifestyle ,but you have to try it first. I could always rent it to tourists with that pioneer theme if i dont use it much.


My Great Aunt & Uncle had a remote cabin exactly like this ... built the cabin themselves as Great Uncle was a carpenter.  They spent most of the year up there - going up early in the spring and coming out late in the fall.  They also grew up without electricity, indoor bathroom so oil lamps, hand pump and wood stove were familiar.  I enjoyed spending time there (3 weeks) but food storage gets interesting!  They used to do a run down the lake to the nearest town for groceries.


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## Ashful (Mar 31, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Lets not forget that living off the land friggen sucks.  That is why we have modern things like health care, leather couches, refrigeration and heating.  Because its really nice.


While I see your point, we differ to some degree, there.  I'd be much closer to living off the land, if such a large fraction of the more desirable members of the fairer sex weren't opposed to it.


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## sportbikerider78 (Apr 3, 2017)

Ashful said:


> While I see your point, we differ to some degree, there.  I'd be much closer to living off the land, if such a large fraction of the more desirable members of the fairer sex weren't opposed to it.



There are tons of them..you just haven't found the right one. And you might have to be somewhat 'liberal' on your facial hair expectations.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Apr 3, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Lets not forget that living off the land friggen sucks.  That is why we have modern things like health care, leather couches, refrigeration and heating.  Because its really nice.


You are right about that! While there is some romantic appeal to living "Alone in the Wilderness," Dick Proenneke was literally one in a million (far less, probably), most of us would go crazy in a situation without access to modern amenities, other people, etc. 

I personally like a mix of modern and classic- enjoy the garden and wood stove, but like that the grocery store and thermostat are readily available. The positive is that you can save money, and be somewhat self sufficient, and not alienate all the "normal" folks around.  I'm probably close to the edge, at least one of my neighbors has commented that I am living in the wrong century.  That said, strangers stop in frequently to chat about the garden and wood stacks.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 11, 2017)

You can learn to live a minimalist lifestyle quickly when funds are tight.  Being self employed we learn that early on.


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## blades (Aug 11, 2017)

Ditto to seasoned oak. ed3000 - yep, sold the place in town moved out to sticks - couldn't put up with neighbors and long noses anymore likely not the best decision but preserves my sanity ( course maybe I am too far over the edge already)  and their lives.


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## Ashful (Aug 11, 2017)

blades said:


> Ditto to seasoned oak. ed3000 - yep, sold the place in town moved out to sticks - couldn't put up with neighbors and long noses anymore likely not the best decision but preserves my sanity ( course maybe I am too far over the edge already)  and their lives.


Depends on your locale, I guess.  Around here, I seem to come across more ornery neighbor stories in the sticks, than I ever hear from folks living in town.  Maybe expectations are different.

Of course, if you can go big (eg. over 80 acres), that tends to solve a lot of those problems.


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## peakbagger (Aug 11, 2017)

Living in the relative sticks, it comes down to if you want to be sociable the community will usually welcome you with open arms. The town next to me where my wood lot is has 300 year round residents and possible triple that for two months in summer. They have lots of activities in the off season but if someone doesn't want to participate they usually give up inviting folks and leave them alone. The trade off is very few people can make it isolated and when they do need help it may not be there. Frequently they live through one or two winters and move away "as the locals werent friendly". Another nearby town has a similar low population, no trash pick up so you have to go to the recycling facility to get rid of trash, someone has to be there to accept it so the residents have two choices, one night a week for the folks who are not social and "dump and donuts" on Saturdays where most folks come and stay a few hours to socialize.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 12, 2017)

I actually sold a place in the country partly because the nearest neighbor was a Psyco. I couldnt even see their place through a pine forest of trees . Apparently they moved out to the country for peace and quiet.  Would go basllistic if they heard any kind of noise from my property ,even kids splashing in the pool during the day. When they started shooting through the trees in my direction when ever there was noise, i figured it was time to make a move ,before i started shooting back.


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## Squirrely (Aug 12, 2017)

My wife and I are long time minimalists who make a game out of living really cheap and using almost everything. 

All of our combustible trash is used to start fires in the stove.
All of our sewage is processed and every drop of water is reused to irrigate our fruit trees.
All of our sewage sludge is used to fertilize the trees.
All of our garbage is composted and used in the garden.
All of our stove ash goes into the garden.

We're also fiscal minimalists. This is the year round average monthly cost to live in our house.

$190 Property Tax
$40 Water
$45 Electricity
$40 Propane
$36 Trash
$85 Phone + Internet
$0   Heat

Total: $436

We bought raw land and built our house for cash so there's no mortgage debt or insurance premiums to pay. We lived next door for years in a converted garage for $875 a month. So we cut our monthly housing costs almost exactly in* half*.


Greg


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 13, 2017)

Squirrely said:


> My wife and I are long time minimalists who make a game out of living really cheap and using almost everything.
> 
> All of our combustible trash is used to start fires in the stove.
> All of our sewage is processed and every drop of water is reused to irrigate our fruit trees.
> ...



I like your style.

Minimal taxes are a great thing to pursue.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 13, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I like your style.
> 
> Minimal taxes are a great thing to pursue.


If you live in a Mobile structure like a tiny house (on wheels) or an RV or a Motor Home you only pay very small property taxes on the land.  When i tore down my cabin in the woods my taxes on the land (only), went down to about $80 a Year.  Presently  im trying to buy 43 acres of forest land with no buildings and the yearly taxes are under $100 .   Makes me want to put the new cabin on some type of movable structure.


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## Lake Girl (Aug 13, 2017)

Squirrely said:


> We lived next door for years in a converted garage for $875 a month.


In my area, there have been quite of few who have done this to keep costs to a minimum.  Seems to work well as long as you can stick to the plan on the house itself...


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## begreen (Aug 13, 2017)

A local couple converted a shipping container into their temporary home. They lived there for about 5 yrs until they could afford to build their home. It's now their "guest cottage".


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## Squirrely (Aug 13, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I like your style.
> 
> Minimal taxes are a great thing to pursue.



Our minimal property taxes were a totally unintential consequence of building.

By acting as our own bank we fully funded the project from concept to finished product. And by acting as our own developers we did all of the paperwork required to go through plan check and to obtain a building permit.

California being is a bluest of all the blue states with complete absolute unopposible supermajority one party rule in both houses and a blue Governor, the cost of it's huge government bureaucracy is built into everything. This is one reason California real estate is so expensive. Our area has among the most convoluted labyrinthian restrictive building codes in the nation. The building permit for a simple minimal completely conventional 1,100 square foot house cost $30k and took two and a half years to obtain... and we got off easy. It's not uncommon to pay $50k to $150k for a permit to build depending on the size and environmental impact of the project.

When the plans were approved, we acted as our own general building contractors and worked as our own laborers to do everything that was within our abilities so as to keep costs down. Then we acted as our own real estate agents and "gave" our house to ourselves.

In 1978, California voters revolted against high property taxes and passed ballot proposition 13 which keeps the property taxes pegged to the property assessment at the time of sale, and only allows them to go up at tiny increments over the years. Since we were developers and builders our house never sold, so the property tax assessment remained at the wholesale builder's cost which is currently $170k. This is slightly under the actual total cost of $185k. So the property taxes currently run us just under 2.4k per year. The current market value of our house is just under 1m, which if sold, would put the property taxes at 10.7k per year.

From this experience, we discovered a valuable principle of minimalism.
The government *cannot* tax business transactions you make with yourself. We reaped *all* of the profits from being our own bank, our own developer, our own builder, and our own real estate agent.

Greg


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## Squirrely (Aug 13, 2017)

Lake Girl said:


> In my area, there have been quite of few who have done this to keep costs to a minimum.  Seems to work well as long as you can stick to the plan on the house itself...



We built really simple so as to have enough money to complete the project without any debt. Most of the building materials came from Home Depot. At Building and Safety our tiny house was a joke and even looks like a toy.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







Greg


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 13, 2017)

Squirrely said:


> It's not uncommon to pay $50k to $150k for a permit to build depending on the size and environmental impact of the project.



WOW  sounds like the price of a fairly nice house in many other places,just for a lousy building permit. Is it really worth all that just to live in the tax your eyes out  state?
Greg


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## begreen (Aug 13, 2017)

CA is a big state. Building permit costs vary from county to county. In many parts of the state they can be much more reasonable.


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## Squirrely (Aug 13, 2017)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Is it really worth all that just to live in the tax your eyes out state?
> Greg



Yes.

We more than quintupled our original investment with negligible tax exposure, while making it posible to live for practically nothing in a rural setting where we're free to pursue our minimalist lifestyle.

Greg


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## Squirrely (Aug 13, 2017)

Seasoned Oak said:


> If you live in a Mobile structure like a tiny house (on wheels) or an RV or a Motor Home you only pay very small property taxes on the land.  When i tore down my cabin in the woods my taxes on the land (only), went down to about $80 a Year.  Presently  im trying to buy 43 acres of forest land with no buildings and the yearly taxes are under $100 .   Makes me want to put the new cabin on some type of movable structure.



Go for it. 
Tinyhomes are awesome! I believe minimalist living is the wave of the future.

In our area the minimum size restriction for a non-mobile house is 800 square feet with a width of 20 feet, so the cost of adding a few more hundred square feet was neglible.


Greg


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## Squirrely (Aug 13, 2017)

begreen said:


> CA is a big state. Building permit costs vary from county to county. In many parts of the state they can be much more reasonable.



They do vary relative to each other, although the cost of the State, County, and City bureaucracies are built into everything here. I enjoy the challenge of living minimally in an prohibitively expensive area. Our house is the cheapest one in the neighborhood.

Greg


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 14, 2017)

Squirrely said:


> , would put the property taxes at 10.7k per year.
> 
> From this experience, we discovered a valuable principle of minimalism.
> The government *cannot* tax business transactions you make with yourself. We reaped *all* of the profits from being our own bank, our own developer, our own builder, and our own real estate agent.
> ...



In upstate NY, you can pay $12k/yr on a $300-350k house, depending on the county. 

I have an employee with a very cheap looking (nothing special) $120k house that pays $5k/yr in taxes.  No town, no public transportation,,,out in the country.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 14, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> In upstate NY, you can pay $12k/yr on a $300-350k house, depending on the county.
> 
> I have an employee with a very cheap looking (nothing special) $120k house that pays $5k/yr in taxes.  No town, no public transportation,,,out in the country.


My uncle was essentially driven out of New York state by property taxes. Once from long island ,then again from upstate after some religious groups bought up a lot of RE driving up taxes for the remaining homeowners. Settled in South Carolina were  people can actually afford to live.


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## Squirrely (Aug 14, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> In upstate NY, you can pay $12k/yr on a $300-350k house, depending on the county.
> 
> I have an employee with a very cheap looking (nothing special) $120k house that pays $5k/yr in taxes.  No town, no public transportation,,,out in the country.



I totally believe you. That's the cost of government bureaucracy built into real estate. People believe they're paying for more expensive houses when in reality they're paying for more expensive government.

It's fitting that people should be fully exposed to the consequences of what they created with their feelings of being entitled to someone else paying their bills. This principle applies to insurance, healthcare, education, government, and debt. These are all economically *toxic* sectors to be *avoided* at all costs, as they are all *enemies* of a minimalist lifestyle.

Greg


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## begreen (Aug 14, 2017)

Yes, the LA area is really expensive, though rising municipal expenses are not just in CA. The Seattle area is exploding due to an incredible influx of people moving here. (mostly from CA )

FWIW, the cost of municipal and county systems is built into any governing body. Fire, police, sanitation, health, road, school systems can't run on charity. These folks tried to ignore this basic fact. Hasn't worked out too well for them.
https://www.texasobserver.org/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-freest-little-city-in-texas

Politics is closing down the thread. It's become ashcan material and there is no can.


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