# Honda is going right to Hydrogen/Fuel Cell Battery?



## webbie (Nov 14, 2007)

http://news.windingroad.com/car-buying/2007-la-auto-show-2009-honda-fcx-clarity/

Honda will allow its dealers to lease this production FCX fuel cell vehicle to customers in Southern California starting next summer. The price is around $600 per month and the lease runs for three years. Insurance and maintenance are included in that monthly figure.

The production FCX carries hydrogen in a fuel cell between the front seats. The hydrogen is used in conjunction with a lithium-ion battery pack to power the car and it has a range of 270 miles


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## babalu87 (Nov 14, 2007)

$600 a month
I could lease a Corvette for that


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## TMonter (Nov 14, 2007)

> I could lease a Corvette for that



Or buy a really nice car and pay for gas and insurance for a lot of miles.

That's 21,600 over 3 years without the down payment which I bet is at least $3000.00


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## Nofossil (Nov 14, 2007)

Let's hope for California's sake that they don't sell too many of them. Unless I'm badly mistaken, making hydrogen requires a lot of electricity. Every unit of energy in hydrogen requires more than unit worth of energy in the form of electricity. California doesn't have a lot of extra electrical generation or distribution capacity - remember the electricity crisis a few years back? Too many of these might cause electricity shortages again.

In my simplistic understanding, hydrogen and fuel cells are just an alternative to batteries. Both require electricity as input, and both produce electricity as output. I don't know which approach is more efficient. At this point, I think you can store more energy in a hydrogen tank / fuel cell vehicle than you can store in a the same weight / volume of batteries.

On the other hand, hydrogen is complicated: you have to generate electricity, use it in a hydrogen generating plant to generate the hydrogen, store it, transport it, pump it into the car, then burn it in a fuel cell to drive the car. The battery alternative: Generate the power, send it to the home / wherever, charge the car, drive the car.

Whatever route we take, we're going to need more electricity. Lots more electricity. One gallon of gasoline contains the same energy as 36 kilowatt-hours of electricity. Automobile engines are not particularly efficient at turning that energy into motion, but there are inefficiencies in electrical systems as well, not to mention the complex hydrogen / fuel cell cycle described above.

Assuming that efficiencies are approximately equal as a first approximation, someone who currently drives 15,000 miles per year at 25mpg now uses 600 gallons of gas per year. That would translate to 21,000kWh worth of electricity. At $0.11/kWh, thats $200/month for one car. I suspect that would double or triple the average home's electricity usage. For one car.

The straight electricity -> battery -> drive process would likely be more efficient that an IC engine, but the hydrogen route might well be even worse than an IC engine. Either way, I stand by my thesis - we will need a lot more electricity. The NIMBYs here in Vermont have scuttled almost every attempt at wind power. The sun doesn't shine here much of the year, and we don't have lots more rivers to dam up. Time to get real about where it's going to come from.


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## webbie (Nov 14, 2007)

I have not studied it, but assume (maybe wrongly) that Honda is not a stupid company. I know they envision a future fuel cell generator at each home to produce electric for the home and for the car. This is obviously R&D;, and those 100K electric cars are selling pretty well, so we are certainly not the target audience yet.


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## Burn-1 (Nov 14, 2007)

If this breakthrough in hydrogen production is a sign of things to come, then hydrogen might be looking up.


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## Nofossil (Nov 15, 2007)

> I have not studied it, but assume (maybe wrongly) that Honda is not a stupid company. I know they envision a future fuel cell generator at each home to produce electric for the home and for the car. This is obviously R&D;, and those 100K electric cars are selling pretty well, so we are certainly not the target audience yet.



The crux of the issue is where does the hydrogen come from - it's energy, after all, and it has to come from somewhere. At present, about 90% comes from the processing of fossil fuels (you can see where this is headed), and maybe 10% comes from electrolysis, which uses energy derived primarily from (you guessed it) fossil fuels.

I learned something, though:



			
				Burn-1 said:
			
		

> If this breakthrough in hydrogen production is a sign of things to come, then hydrogen might be looking up.



This is interesting - almost as cool as artificial photosynthesis. Essentially, it looks like this process generates hydrogen from organic matter. You might could burn the leftovers in your woodstove - a hydrogenless biobrick of some sort.

Generating enough biomass to supply our energy needs in another challenge. The recent ethanol experience should show us that there are difficulties in that direction as well. Who knew that subsidizing ethanol production would result in water shortages? More critically, increased beer prices?

Might have the effect of decentralizing energy production - a Good Thing, IMHO.


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## Corey (Nov 15, 2007)

I think that is what they call a "win-win"  Companies get to lease a 'green' car (no doubt with a big "HONDA FCX Hydrogen Power" banner down the side.  So they can flaunt their green image.  Honda get to recover maybe 10-15% of what it actually cost to build the car, but, no doubt gets a ton of feedback and millions of miles of real world experience with hydrogen and fuel cells in general to roll over into the next generation of production.

This is not too unlike what Honda did with the Insight - selling the first models at or below the cost to build just to get them out on the road and start getting experience - or even what GM did with the EV1 before abandoning it as hopeless.  Hopefully Honda will have better luck - they just need to overcome the major hurdles...Fuel cells are terribly expensive and don't throttle well, battery technology - while improving, still sucks compared to what is needed for a vehicle, there is essentially no  free hydrogen on the planet, and even if there were, it's a real PITA to store a significant quantity for any decent range in a vehicle.  Other than that, it's perfect!


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## Nofossil (Nov 15, 2007)

cozy heat said:
			
		

> I think that is what they call a "win-win"  Companies get to lease a 'green' car (no doubt with a big "HONDA FCX Hydrogen Power" banner down the side.  So they can flaunt their green image.  Honda get to recover maybe 10-15% of what it actually cost to build the car, but, no doubt gets a ton of feedback and millions of miles of real world experience with hydrogen and fuel cells in general to roll over into the next generation of production.
> 
> This is not too unlike what Honda did with the Insight - selling the first models at or below the cost to build just to get them out on the road and start getting experience - or even what GM did with the EV1 before abandoning it as hopeless.  Hopefully Honda will have better luck - they just need to overcome the major hurdles...Fuel cells are terribly expensive and don't throttle well, battery technology - while improving, still sucks compared to what is needed for a vehicle, there is essentially no  free hydrogen on the planet, and even if there were, it's a real PITA to store a significant quantity for any decent range in a vehicle.  Other than that, it's perfect!



You forgot to mention that it's insanely flammable as well ;-)

I agree that it's a great move for Honda. They'll get priceless real-world hard data _and_ nice warm fuzzy green publicity, both at the same time.


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## derbygreg (Nov 18, 2007)

http://world.honda.com/Diesel/

Looks like Honda is also going to start selling Diesels.  I spoke with a R&D;guy at the Marysville plant and he has confirmed it, but the sell date is not out yet.


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## begreen (Nov 18, 2007)

nofossil said:
			
		

> cozy heat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, safer than gasoline.


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## Mike Wilson (Nov 18, 2007)

Fusion... there is no substitute.

-- Mike


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## tbl01 (Nov 18, 2007)

Hi,
The city  I am employed at currently opened the first east coast Test Hydrogen Generation refueling Plant of its kind in White Plains Ny. In conjuction with Shell Hydrogen,Gm(Project Driveway) NYSDEC aand NYPA(New York Power Authority)

Gm is currently using local residents in three month intervals to try out the Hydrogen Powered SUV's. Six vechiles will be tooling around in the Metro NY area.

I was quite impressed with the plant. This plant by Shell Hydrogen that is totally "green".  The electric that is provided  to produce the hydrogen comes from Hydro  Electric Geneeration from Nigiara Falls thru NYPA.

Very cool setup.  The plant makes 4kg per day _I believe_.  Honda is scheduled to make a fill up next month with therir new test platform..

The City Engineering bureau was there for the grand opening, and I was able to ask alot of questions. Safety plans etc.  

GM


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## Nofossil (Nov 18, 2007)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> Fusion... there is no substitute.
> 
> -- Mike



Someone once said that nuclear is the best power source. The trick is to locate the reactor far enough from major population centers. 93 million miles ought to be about right ;-)


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## Burn-1 (Nov 18, 2007)

Well I mentioned earlier in the thread that there are some very interesting developments in hydrogen production which are being researched but storage has always been a problem as well.

That also has had a recent breakthrough so I'm still not sold on the idea since hydrogen is not a fuel but an energy carrier from one form to another but it may not be all hype.


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## tbl01 (Nov 18, 2007)

I think the actually fuel cell is one of the major stubmling blocks it getting useful product out to the public.


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