# Frustrating night - (Update)



## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

Ok, so we have power at our house, but our friends are without power since Sat night.
Started up the generator before I left the houose, and it ran fine.
Put it in the car, and took the 20 minute drive to our friends house. Had one of the local police officers meet us there, and we worked on making a male/male plug and were going to run it into the generator and then into the circuit that powers the furnace. (Yes, aware of the risks)
Anyway, I showed my friends wife how to start the generator and it ran on the first pull. The husband came home, and had him start it on the first pull. Anyway, after about 10 minutes we got the cord hooked up and started the generator....ran fine for 30 seconds, then just died. Would only run for about 3-5 seconds on full choke, and then died off choke.
The police office seemed to think there as either sediment in the tank, and something is stock open/closed. He said to remove the fuel, remove the bowl on the bottom of the carburator, and then give the carb a good cleaning, and to use some fuel stabilizer.
Any other suggestions? (Fuel was new about 2 months ago, and ran fine for about 20 minutes when I started it last)
Man, so frustrating.....met up with our friends at my sons karate class, so with our generator and the polices connections with an electrician, I would have really liked to get the folks up with power....felt so bad when we left thier house as they had some hope they were going to have power
Any suggestions would be great.
PS. Its a briggs and stratton gen, about 3 years old. 5500 running and 8250 peak watts I think


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## maple1 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'd say the carb picked up some dirt. I'd get right into it, take the carb off, bowl off, jets out, and blow clean every orifice.

Mine did that last time I actually had to use it last year - would run fine until a load hit it, then quit. I frigged around with it all day that day, doing everything except removing the carb - there was still dirt there somewhere I wasn't getting. I dug it out a month ago, did all that, and now it runs fine.  With right tools at hand, it should take less than an hour. Be careful you don't strip somehting though, those jets are soft brass.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 2, 2011)

It's obvious, but I'm ashamed to admit it's happened to me before:  the fuel valve is turned on and there's fuel in the tank?


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## tb525 (Nov 2, 2011)

Have you checked the engine oil level? A lot of generators have an engine oil level sensor that shuts it down if the oil level is low..


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## velvetfoot (Nov 2, 2011)

That's true:  maybe the generator wasn't level, making it worse.

How about taking out the spark plug and cleaning it (flooded?)
You could try starter fluid.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

Just got into work guys. Well, tried it before work this mornig, and it would not start at all.
Fuel line was open, oil is in the motor, and had the lever set to choke.
I guess I will take the bowl of and try cleaning the carb. Also heard that their might be  stuck float? (Not sure what that is) But if someone could decribe it at least I would know what I would be looking for.
basically, started 1st pull last night, then first pull about 20 minutes later when showing the folks how to start it....then started fine again about 10 minutes later once we had the connections completed....ran for about 15-30 seconds under load and it just died....would start at full choke after 5 minutes or so, but then would not run. This morning, couldn't start it at all even with choke on.
So, after I take the bowl off, I just spray the carb cleaner up into the carb? What are the jets?


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## yanksforever (Nov 2, 2011)

Before taking it apart...Just check to see if the breather hole on top of the fuel cap is clean . Run a paper clip through it. I had that same problem too one time and that little tiny pin hole was clogged and it kept stalling out on me. You can also just remove the gas cap and then try to start it with it off and see if it runs. If it does...that little tiny hole is clogged.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

Another good tip, thanks. Found out my model number, it is a briggs and stratton 030424.
Found the owner manual online, and a parts manual, but no repair manual for the actual engine/carb


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## dave11 (Nov 2, 2011)

You might also check that the fuel filter looks good, or if it hasn't been changed recently, to change it. Check the air intake and the exhaust port for mouse nests or other blockage.

When it did run, was it running normally, or rough?

Agree with the other who said to try running with the gas cap loose.

When was the last time it was used for an extended period?

Sea Foam might be useful here.


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## Fifelaker (Nov 2, 2011)

A little late to the party but I have seen seafoam do wonders.


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## dave11 (Nov 2, 2011)

And now that it won't start at all, you might also check for spark, with a spark tester, if you have one. If not, you can do it with the plug held in an insulated pliers. Change the plug if its more than a year old.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm really old school. Diagnose! don't chase ghosts!

1) Lack of Fuel?
               Air?
               Spark?

Lot's of good suggestions above. But you need to find out which one of the elements of combustion is missing.

It is easier to diagnose when you're not in a panic. As an example, I FINALLY got gas hooked up to my generator (AFTER the power was restored from Irene) and I COULD NOT get it running. Somehow having it in my head that propane gas was so different from gasoline, I gave up when it would not start. So i went on-line and found that a guy who claims to work on these all the time said to put your finger over the 'carb', effectivly choking it completely. Needless to say, started right up. Embarrassing because if it had been a gasoline engine, I woulda done that without help.

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is take a mental step back, forget about how bad you need the electricity, and step by step diagnose it.

Another step along the way . . . you say it ran 20 minutes at your house with it not hooked up . . . have you tried running it now with it NOT HOOKED UP?

Jimbo


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

dave11 said:
			
		

> You might also check that the fuel filter looks good, or if it hasn't been changed recently, to change it. Check the air intake and the exhaust port for mouse nests or other blockage.
> 
> When it did run, was it running normally, or rough?
> 
> ...



Ok, gotta figure out where the fuel filter is and I can check that out, will also try without the gas cap on.
I ran it about 2 months ago for about 10 minutes or so....in prep for Hurricane Irene a few months back. (Not under load as we had power) Started first pull and ran fine. My plan is that I will drain the tank, take off the bowl, spray carb cleaner in the carb, and then try again with fresh gas. Is there anything I should not spray when I take the bowl off? i.e by taking off the bowl that will give me access to the carb? Sorry for the stupid questions.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

Damnit Dave!  Replicate the conditions when it ran last. Unhook it from the load. Did you change anything else since then? (Like add gas . . .which just happened to be MIX, not gas :roll: )


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> I'm really old school. Diagnose! don't chase ghosts!
> 
> 1) Lack of Fuel?
> Air?
> ...



Thanks Jimbo. We have power, so I had brought the generator over to a friends house, as they have been without for 5 days now. (Not sure if I made that point in my first post) After it died at their house last night, brought it home last night...would not start last night, and would not start this morning. So, I am going to start with the basics and take it from there. I know how to take the bowl off, I just am not sure what I should be sraying inside the carb.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Damnit Dave!  Replicate the conditions when it ran last. Unhook it from the load. Did you change anything else since then? (Like add gas . . .which just happened to be MIX, not gas :roll: )



Replicated all conditions when it ran last. Not under load, same fuel, same spot in the driveway,, etc.. (Last time I added gas was before I ran it for 20 minutes a month ago prior to Irene)

Gas added was 89 octane and not mix for my saw


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> brought it home last night...would not start last night, and would not start this morning.



Ok, so sounds like that little bit of questionable wiring has been removed . . . good.

Do a standard pre-start check (switch(s) on, tank full, proper oil level, etc)

Pull the spark plug, ground it against the head, pull the rip cord. Do you see and hear spark?

Did all of its running occur BEFORE you attempted to wire it to your friend's house? How long did it run AFTER you wired it up?


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> daveswoodhauler said:
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At work now, so will work on it later.
To answer your ??'s
Pre start check competed this morning. Not sure what you mean by pulling the spark plug and grounding? (Will check this tonight)
It ran for about 10-20 seconds...then we plugged it it to the house...then ran about 10 seconds and died (while hooked up to the house) It tripped a GFI switch in their garage, so we were trying to find a plug without a GFI on the same circuit at their furnace. It would then start at full choke after sitting for 5 minutes, but then died as soon as I flipped the switch to run. Did this 3-4 times and it ran for 2-3 seconds each, then would not start. Tried this morning, and would not start at all. I think thats about it.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

If you find that it DOES have appropriate spark . . .

remove air filter so there is no question it is getting enough air.

Put the sprk plug back in, do NOT put the plug wire on, hold your hand over the carb, pull the rope 5 times. Pull the plug again, it should be wet with gas. If not . . . not sure whether to advise this or not. . . take a can of ether, and NOT DOWN INTO THE CARB, spray LIGHTLY ACROSS the top of the carb. If it starts and you can keep it running with LIGHT mists of starting spray, you know you are not getting gas.

If you see the connecting rod sticking out of the cylinder wall, you used to much starting fluid.

If the plus IS WET after the first test above, clean it before reinstalling it. :red:


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## Iembalm4aLiving (Nov 2, 2011)

If it was only running okay with the choke on, that's classic crud in the carb.  I'll bet that when you jostled the generator taking it from home to your friends some dirt got dislodged from somewhere and found it's way into the carb.  If it's running off and on, I'd hit it with a dose of Techron or other good carb cleaner and run it.....I've had good luck going this route to avoid dismantling carbs if I can help it.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> If you find that it DOES have appropriate spark . . .
> 
> remove air filter so there is no question it is getting enough air.
> 
> ...



Got it, I will try at home. Thanks much.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

gd9704 said:
			
		

> If it was only running okay with the choke on, that's classic crud in the carb.  I'll bet that when you jostled the generator taking it from home to your friends some dirt got dislodged from somewhere and found it's way into the carb.  If it's running off and on, I'd hit it with a dose of Techron or other good carb cleaner and run it.....I've had good luck going this route to avoid dismantling carbs if I can help it.



Ok, here is my question....what am I spraying on the carb? I am guessing after I remove the bowl I will have access to the carb? (Just don't want to damage the carb)


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

LOL, Dave, you scare me! You can backward wire this to the house, but not pull the plug and check for spark?? :wow: 

Ok, you know I'm just bustin' yer azz . . .

So, if it actually starts, we know it is getting at least some spark. I would put a new spark plug in it, appropriatly gapped.

Not sure about the other guys/gals here, but I have sometimes found that carb cleaner sprayed liberally will end up @#$@ the combustion chamber (ie., no compression, fouled plug) and though the carb may be cleaner, the engine now will'nt start for other reasons. And carbs are funny little quirky things . . . sometimes carb cleaner and compressed air will move a piece of dirt from one orifice to a different one.

And, dirt can cause either lean OR rich. You referenced the float . . . amazing how a lil bit of dirt (or broken down phenallic from ethanol degredation :shut: ) can get under the seat and let it flood. But next time you get it runing and it quits after 20 secs, pull the spark plug and see if it is wet with gas.

Of course, a much more basic approach . . . if your neighbor's wife is cute, offer to let them come to your house for a hot shower. Just sayin'


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## bluedogz (Nov 2, 2011)

Gotta reiterate BTUs advice-

If you have:
Air
Fuel
Fire (Spark)
Compression

an engine will run unless you try to stop it.

Let's assume you have compression.  Put the gas cap back on, then undo the spark plug, then plug it back into the spark plug wire.  Using insulated (rubber-handled) pliers, hold the tip of the plug against metal that is connected to the ground (the  frame of the genset should do).  Pull the starter cord- you should see a blue spark flashing across the electrodes of the spark plug.  Then put it back.

I won't repeat all the fuel advice you've already got, but since you asked what to spray and what not to spray- any auto parts store should have a spray can labelled carburetor cleaner- guess what that does?  What not to spray?  Silicone  spray, WD40, Windex, paint, hairspray, Pam... the list goes on.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> If you find that it DOES have appropriate spark . . .



What exactly am I doing here to check spark? Removing the plug from the engine while attached to the wire and then pulling cord? or vice versa....talk to me like I am an idiot  lol


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

gd9704 said:
			
		

> If it was only running okay with the choke on, that's classic crud in the carb.  I'll bet that when you jostled the generator taking it from home to your friends some dirt got dislodged from somewhere and found it's way into the carb.  If it's running off and on, I'd hit it with a dose of Techron or other good carb cleaner and run it.....I've had good luck going this route to *avoid dismantling carbs if I can help it.*



VERY fine piece of advice right there!! 'Specially when yer saying you're not that comfortable with the operation anyway Dave!


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## dave11 (Nov 2, 2011)

In my experience, when a fairly new small engine suddenly won't start or run, the problem is usually something straightforward. If you haven't been running it with an old or dirty fuel filter, its not likely you're going to get much crud in the fuel lines or carb, though I'm not saying it's impossible. A generator is not out in the field like a saw or mower, and the gas you put in it likely is pretty clean. So to say that you had dirty gas to start with, and that it got through the filter to cause this trouble, seems unlikely (but not impossible). That's not to say you don't have some other problem with the carb. 

Check for spark or replace the plug. 

Change the fuel filter.

Change the air filter if it looks dirty.

Check for obstructions in both the air intake and the exhaust. 

Loosen the gas cap.

If I were you, I wouldn't take anything apart all this was done, and nothing improved.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> Gotta reiterate BTUs advice-
> 
> If you have:
> Air
> ...



LOl, I know what not to use for spray (i.e I know to get carb cleaner) I was asking what parts to spray once I have the bowl off. (I see BTU answered some of this...just want to know if there is any part inside the carb once I get the bowl off that I do not spray)

The backfeed wiring was done with the cop on the phone with his electrician....I know how to splice wires, lol


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## dave11 (Nov 2, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> ISeeDeadBTUs said:
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The best way to check for spark is with a spark tester, which you can buy pretty cheaply at the auto parts store. 

You can also do it holding the plug in INSULATED plies, but you run the risk of a painful but non-lethal shock if you screw up. 

If you don't want to buy a spark tester, just buy a new plug and put it in.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

dave11 said:
			
		

> In my experience, when a fairly new small engine suddenly won't start or run, the problem is usually something straightforward. If you haven't been running it with an old or dirty fuel filter, its not likely you're going to get much crud in the fuel lines or carb, though I'm not saying it's impossible. A generator is not out in the field like a saw or mower, and the gas you put in it likely is pretty clean. So to say that you had dirty gas to start with, and that it got through the filter to cause this trouble, seems unlikely (but not impossible). That's not to say you don't have some other problem with the carb.
> 
> Check for spark or replace the plug.
> 
> ...



Idiot alert....I know. I know...call me bdad. Ok, I was under the impression that carb cleaner is something that is sprayed into the carb...so I am an idiot I guess. Do you just run the carb cleaner in the tank? with gas, without gas? (I was planning on draining all the fuel via taking off the fuel line on the bottom of the tank. (Reason I thoughyt I was spraying someing in the carb is because the cop has the same exact generator, and he said that was his problem)


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

Question:


			
				daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> What exactly am I doing here to check spark?



Answer:


			
				bluedogz said:
			
		

> Put the gas cap back on, then undo the spark plug, then plug it back into the spark plug wire.  Using insulated (rubber-handled) pliers, hold the tip of the plug against metal that is connected to the ground (the  frame of the genset should do).  Pull the starter cord- you should see a blue spark flashing across the electrodes of the spark plug.  Then put it back.



And don't get all wound up about using some special insulated pliers. Use your bare hand on the plug wire. If you ground the spark plug well, but still get shocked through the insulation of the plug wire, then the plug wire is crap and/or the plug isn't gapped correctly.

And look . . .surprise surprise, I ain't no doctor. I been zapped many times and no real bad effects. But if you got a pacemaker or something, this may not be a good test for you to perform. Have the guy who you are trying to help hold the plug. ESPECIALLY if his wife is cute. ;-)


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

The bowl you speak of Dave, will not have to be taken off to get to the carb. The bowl is basically a small reservoir of gas that the carb takes gas from. You generally should not have to remove the bowl to get at the carb. And, as others have said -and especially where you are not comfortable attempting to catch check balls and needles and seats, et when they fall out- try to avoid dismantling the carb. That really should be done in a warm, well lit shop with a clean bench.


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## backpack09 (Nov 2, 2011)

I usually just pop the wire off the plug and hold it near the plug to see if there is spark.  This way there is no fuel being being sprayed out the spark plug hole near a spark...


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> The bowl you speak of Dave, will not have to be taken off to get to the carb. The bowl is basically a small reservoir of gas that the carb takes gas from. You generally should not have to remove the bowl to get at the carb. And, as others have said -and especially where you are not comfortable attempting to catch check balls and needles and seats, et when they fall out- try to avoid dismantling the carb. That really should be done in a warm, well lit shop with a clean bench.



Ok, got it. Thanks for all the help. Going to be online this weekend when I attempt this lol ?
(The cop that has the same gen as me told me the same exact thing happened to him 2 weeks ago....he just removed the bowl and cleaned it out...thats why I thought that the bowl would be access to the carb....I am not going to dismantle/open the carb..if I can't get it running with all the help from you guys I'll just bring it to the repair shop)
Thanks again.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

Backpack09 said:
			
		

> I usually just pop the wire off the plug and hold it near the plug to see if there is spark.  This way there is no fuel being being sprayed out the spark plug hole near a spark...



We want to know if the *spark plug is sparking*, not if we are getting spark *to* the plug . . .

If the spark plug, removed from the combustion chamber by a few inches, ignites fuel mixture blowing out of the combustion chamber through the spark plug hole (no longer under compression), then someone put jet fuel or ether in the tank. . . in which case, no amount of advice found on Hearth.com is gonna save that person's sorry azz :smirk:


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

When the cop is on duty . . . go switch out generators with him


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## fprintf (Nov 2, 2011)

My guess is on aged gas. Unlike wood, gasoline does not improve with age. If gasoline stablizer was not mixed with the fuel before storage then it is possible that no amount of fiddling will get this thing to run. I agree with ISeeDeadBTUs that a methodical approach is best to avoid chasing ghosts. But I guess the following will work:

1. Remove all existing fuel from the unit.
2. Add new fresh gasoline that you bought from the gas station today into a fuel can
3. Add 1 ounce of Sta-Bil or other fuel stabilizer
4. Take the air filter off, and spray carb cleaner (Gumout is a fine brand) into the carb openings 
5. Maybe wiggle the choke on and off a few times
6. Check the fuel switch and ensure it is on
7. Add your fresh fuel into the gas tank
8. Prime the engine if there is a priming bulb (a soft pad you press on to bring fuel to the engine)
9. Turn the unit on
10. Pull the starting cord or press the button to get the electric starter running

The last few times I have had non operating engines it has been entirely my fault putting it away with fuel still in the carb. A relatively quick shot of carb cleaner or brake cleaner was all it took, and I learned my lesson and put my engines away after running them dry *and* put gas stabilizer in the fuel.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

Since you're not going to diagnose it till this w/e, I'll throw my WAG into the ring too. (the previous ones about fuel are prolly the correct ones)

Does anyone know what these units have for a fuse or a fuseable link? I'm wondering about the stellar job the electrician/cop/telephone did. Seems like that may be when it started running for only short bursts. But again, the more probable is that moving the genny around stirred up some dirt and put it where it shouldn't be.

Another tric to cleaning out the carb . . . assuming this is mlti cylindered . . . switch the order on the plug wires. This will cause a pretty good backfire, which will blow back through the carb (and out to your face if you stand there looking down the venturi :zip: ) which may blow the dirt back out the way it came.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

fprintf said:
			
		

> My guess is on aged gas. Unlike wood, gasoline does not improve with age. If gasoline stablizer was not mixed with the fuel before storage then it is possible that no amount of fiddling will get this thing to run. I agree with ISeeDeadBTUs that a methodical approach is best to avoid chasing ghosts. But I guess the following will work:
> 
> 1. Remove all existing fuel from the unit.
> 2. Add new fresh gasoline that you bought from the gas station today into a fuel can
> ...



Thanks Much. On item 4 above, by removing the air cleaner, this will give me acess to the carb? (I am gueessing that the air gets pulled into the carb through the air cleaner...so I am spraying the clearner through the air filter with the filter removed of course)


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 2, 2011)

If the dirt is between the needle and seat (typical syptoms would be flooding) spraying down the throat will not help. But it's still worth a shot.

LOL, by the time you get this thing running, the grid will be back up :coolsmirk:


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## Highbeam (Nov 2, 2011)

Wow. I've had many small engines fail and removing the carb bowl is very easy to do and provides access to almost every possible clogging point. Notice that the can of carb cleaner comes with a small tube to direct a blast into a small area. You will point that tube into the jets and orifices that will become visible when you remove the bowl. This is to blow the crud out of the jets and allow fuel to flow. When you remove the bowl you will want to dump out the gas and clean out any grit from the bottom of the bowl. With the bowl off you will also notice a hangy thing, the float. Make sure the float moves up and down. While it is hanging down turn on the fuel supply to verify that lots of fuel comes pouring into the bowl from the tank. This check will eliminate all of the chances of a plugged fuel filter or bad gas cap.

Put the bowl back on and turn on the gas. Check for leaks. This is actually pretty routine maintenance and never a bad idea. 

Try and start it. Nothing? Then move on to sparkalation.

Remove the plug and check that it looks like a new plug with no funk where the spark should be. Then check for spark but don't get zapped, it's a bit painful.


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## smokinj (Nov 2, 2011)

I would check ground wire and or coil! On off switch.  ;-)


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

Found the manual online:

http://lawnandgarden.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/briggs_stratton/206494gs.html?idRes=8010227

Going to tackle this in the next few days and hopefully post back with some good results. All have been very helpful


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what these units have for a fuse or a fuseable link? I'm wondering about the stellar job the electrician/cop/telephone did. Seems like that may be when it started running for only short bursts. But again, the more probable is that moving the genny around stirred up some dirt and put it where it shouldn't be..



Was thinking the same thing...posted a link of the manual, but I don't see any fuse/link that could have tripped...might have missed it though.


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## Jags (Nov 2, 2011)

Fellas, this thread has tons of good stuff in it, but my bet is that Dave's head is spinning with all this info.

I can help with one small test.  Very quickly spray a short burst of starting fluid in the throat of the carb.  Pull to start (up to 3 pulls).  If it fires AT ALL. Stop.  You have a fuel issue.  If it FAILS to fire, you have an electrical issue.  This will tell you which end of the spectrum to focus on.

I have dollars to doughnuts that the carb needs to be cleaned.


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## smokinj (Nov 2, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> Fellas, this thread has tons of good stuff in it, but my bet is that Dave's head is spinning with all this info.
> 
> I can help with one small test.  Very quickly spray a short burst of starting fluid in the throat of the carb.  Pull to start (up to 3 pulls).  If it fires AT ALL. Stop.  You have a fuel issue.  If it FAILS to fire, you have an electrical issue.  This will tell you which end of the spectrum to focus on.
> 
> I have dollars to doughnuts that the carb needs to be cleaned.



I will take that bet.....50/50 always a good bet. lol


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## Jags (Nov 2, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> Jags said:
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Yer gonna loose this one Jay.    Ran fine at home.  Stuffed into vehicle and got bounced around moving sediment where it shouldn't be and plugged the carb.  Let me make a call to my booky. :coolsmile:

I'll even go further.  Ran for 20 seconds or 30 or whatever because it ran on the fuel that was already in the bowl.  Once depleted, no worky worky.

My simple test will confirm - spark or fuel.


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## smokinj (Nov 2, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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I thought the same thing on my jd running fine and cough a couple times and went down. "Fuel Solenoid" Electric problem. Dirty fuel gets a bad name and everyone chases it....Carbs just are not that smart.
Kinda did the same test and she fired. Took me a few on this one.


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## Jags (Nov 2, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> Jags said:
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That is why I suggest to test first.  Saves alot of time chasing phantom problems.


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## smokinj (Nov 2, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Oh I am with you there but I did the same thing and it fired...lol took a few on that one.  :cheese:


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## Jags (Nov 2, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> Oh I am with you there but I did the same thing and it fired...lol took a few on that one.  :cheese:



I guess the fuel solenoid could be considered both.  An electrical problem that caused lack of fuel.  You were just screwed. :lol:


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## smokinj (Nov 2, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> smokinjay said:
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Tell me about it. I was scratching my head on that one.  :roll:


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

Just got home from work, found some carb spray but no little red straw thingy on the can....no straws on any of my cans of stuff...lol...is there a freakin gremlin that steals all the red straws on wd 40 and other cans :0 lol
Anyway, I might tackle some of the diagnosis tomorrow on lunch, and I will post my results. Maybe I'll pm craig and see if I can purchase a few hearth hats and send them to the ones who diagnosed them correctly...can't afford one for everyone, but there were a few postes that I would like to send a hat too if I can get this running.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 2, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Head not spinning yet, lol.
If I shut off the fuel line, and remove the bowl, should there be fuel in the bowl? If no fuel in the bowl, then it would be a fuel line problem? and if fuel in the bowl, its might be more of a carb issue? (I'm learning a lot here)


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## MasterMech (Nov 2, 2011)

Give it a shot of carb clean down the throat of the carb before you take anything apart.  If it runs then you just ruled out compression and ignition issues.  Then pull the bowl off the carb. Fuel in the bowl, carb needs help. No fuel? Make sure the float/needle valve isn't stuck closed, fuel lines/filter are clear, and the pickup in the tank isn't clogged.  Since it won't start after sitting overnight I think it's safe to say the fuel tank cap isn't the culprit.


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## quercus_kelloggii (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags and master mech are on it.  Carb is gummed up.

My gen did the same thing.  I took carb off, had jelly like gas in
It...  Carb cleaner, little brass brush and a thin single wire 
Guitar string cleaned it out. 

Another time the float needle valve was gummed shut, no fuel...
Removed and cleaned carb...

This last time I ran tiny bit of white gas before storing....

Will try stabil in my gas this year...


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

MasterMech said:
			
		

> Give it a shot of carb clean down the throat of the carb before you take anything apart.  If it runs then you just ruled out compression and ignition issues.  Then pull the bowl off the carb. Fuel in the bowl, carb needs help. No fuel? Make sure the float/needle valve isn't stuck closed, fuel lines/filter are clear, and the pickup in the tank isn't clogged.  Since it won't start after sitting overnight I think it's safe to say the fuel tank cap isn't the culprit.



JUST DO IT!


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## smokinj (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Safety glass's! Dont ask why I said that!


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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My only suggestion on top of MasterMech's is to use starting fluid, not carb cleaner.  Some of that stuff won't ignite.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

Read up on the basics of the carb last night, and at least know I kinda have an idea how it works. Basically, there should be gas in the bowl, and as the gas rises in the bowl the float should close to not allow too much gas in the card....then when the engine uses the fuel, the fuel level in the bowl should drop, then allowing the float to release more gas into the bowl...so, if the float is stuck, no gas in the bowl, and no engine runny...correct?


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## smokinj (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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It was a blast bad straight back in both eyes. It will bring you to your knee's. I would rather take pepper spray.


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> It was a blast bad straight back in both eyes. It will bring you to your knee's. I would rather take pepper spray.



Daddy taught me to never stare down a carb when you crank an engine.  Its a bad idea. ;-)


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> Read up on the basics of the carb last night, and at least know I kinda have an idea how it works. Basically, there should be gas in the bowl, and as the gas rises in the bowl the float should close to not allow too much gas in the card....then when the engine uses the fuel, the fuel level in the bowl should drop, then allowing the float to release more gas into the bowl...so, if the float is stuck, no gas in the bowl, and no engine runny...correct?



Generally, when a float 'sticks', it will stick with the needle valve open, not closed.

Flooding results.

I'm with Jags on starting fluid to test it, not carb cleaner. But spray it ACROSS the carb, not down the throat. Keep the connecting rod INSIDE the cylinder, where it works better.


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## smokinj (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Wasnt cranking the motor. Just a quick shot into the carb (Carb was on my bench). It just flip back. Never had it happen before and dam sure never happen again! (Safety glass's where on my head)


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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And make sure you ain't got a rookie on the starter. Rookie sees flames coming up out of the carb, he/she freaks out!! Whats actually the correct reaction is to begin cranking again, sucking the combustion down where its spossed to be :coolsmirk:


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> Wasnt cranking the motor. Just a quick shot into the carb (Carb was on my bench). It just flip back. Never had it happen before and dam sure never happen again! (Safety glass's where on my head)



Okay, own up, you were trying to huff the can, weren't you? :lol:


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Generally, when a float 'sticks', it will stick with the needle valve open, not closed.
> 
> Flooding results.



Absolutely, and if the valve gets plugged, starvation results.


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## smokinj (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Yea thats it...Be careful is all I got.  :ahhh:


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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This is like carb 101...thanks guys.
Basically, the bad gas can gel up and cause the valve to get plugged.....is there a test at the end of the course, lol


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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You should try lithium sometime.. . . I've heard . . .


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> .....is there a test at the end of the course, lol



Yes, the test is: Does your generator run??


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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Just bust'in your balls Jay.  That stuff is dangerous in more than one way.  Treat it like boiling gas on your stove.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

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Likely, however the offending obstruction is NOT between the needle and seat. The smaller the orifice, the easier it plugs. The problem is more likely to be in onderneath a jet or a check ball . . . you can spray carb cleaner down it till the can is gone, you won't dislodge that speck. Oh, and the plug will be hopelessly fouled and the cylinder walls washed.


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## smokinj (Nov 3, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

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Yea, if it doesn't start you have a clean carb and your now to the electric side of the game!


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> you won't dislodge that speck.



A $1.99 torch tip cleaner set is a very handy tool when working on small carbs.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

Ok, took off the air cleaner...looked very good.
Sprayed some carb cleaner into the intake, set to choke, and pulled cord.
Runs at full choke (I'm guessing as its using the carb cleaner as fuel)
If I take off choke, engine dies. Going back out...check the bowl next?


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> Ok, took off the air cleaner...looked very good.
> Sprayed some carb cleaner into the intake, set to choke, and pulled cord.
> Runs at full choke (I'm guessing as its using the carb cleaner as fuel)
> If I take off choke, engine dies. Going back out...check the bowl next?



Yep, drop the bowl off and clean well.

By the way this proves fuel, in some manner, is your problem.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> Ok, took off the air cleaner...looked very good.
> Sprayed some carb cleaner into the intake, set to choke, and pulled cord.
> Runs at full choke (I'm guessing as its using the carb cleaner as fuel)
> If I take off choke, engine dies. Going back out...check the bowl next?



How long will it run with the choke on?

We need to figure out if it's just burning up what you throw down the throat (as in, the bowl is empty) or the mixture is screwed up.


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## smokinj (Nov 3, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

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Yep yep unless there is a Fuel Solenoid.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

Dave?? Come in Dave?!?

I'm thinking Dave's either having something really, REALY good for lunch, or . . .

He's dropped an itty bitty part and is too embarassed to admit it . . .


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

Ok, working on it on my lunch. Did not drain the tank yet, as I wanted to see if fuel was making it to the carb.
With the air cleaner off, I sprayed some carb cleaner in and it would start and run, but only on full choke...as soon as I moved it one click to run from choke, would sputter and die.
Ok, took of the bowl. And the bowl had gas in it....or...not sure if it was gas, or the carb cleaner i sprayed in it.
So, anyway, dumped out the bowl and cleaned the bowl only with carb cleaner.
So, this spring popped off, and the float thing dropped down as well.....what a pain it was to get it back on, lots of finagling.
I didn't spray anything into the carb from the opening from the bowl, just tried to put the bowl and float back on and I think I got everything lined up right.
Started it back up, and for a few times it would only run on full choke...but I did have the air cleaner still off.
Put the air cleaner back on, and started it up....switched the choke off and it sputtered a little bit, but now is running on "run" vs choke.
Got my crappy electric leaf blower out, and plugged it an extension cord to the gen.....well, its been running for about 5 minutes now....well,, make that 7 minute now.
I'll be back after some more tests,.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

Forgot to put some more tests in my earlier post.
Not knowing if it was the carb cleaner just burning up, I shut off the fuel line and just let it run out...hope this was ok.
Ok, then I turned the fuel line back on, and waited 5 second or so each time. First couple times it would only run with carb cleaner, but on the third time maybe I shut off the fuel line and let the engine stop. Then, just opened the fuel line, and pulled...it did start....also, the choke was still set to run, so now when I push back to choke it dies like it should.....switch back to run, and now had been running for 10 minutes. Going to head out, shut it down for 5 or so, and then try to start with no choke.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Dave?? Come in Dave?!?
> 
> I'm thinking Dave's either having something really, REALY good for lunch, or . . .
> 
> He's dropped an itty bitty part and is too embarassed to admit it . . .



Well, if you meant that little bitty spring that popped off and rolled across the driveway and into the snow....then yes, lol.

Also, When I had the bowl off, and opened the fuel line, the fuel came out pretty slowly....but then again, the float mechanism was still on, so I really couldn't see the flow rate. Mrs's is calling me "smelly" now.

Back to the testing...
Ok, just switched the fuel line to "off" and let it die out, then shut switch off as well.
Waited a few minutes, turned on, opened fuel line, choke was set to run. Gave a medium pull of the cord, and is running like a champ.
been running for about 10 minutes now.
Seeing that my tank on my gen has about 4 gallons in it, should I still drain and refill with new gas?


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## smokinj (Nov 3, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

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Wow, thats cool. after all that I would dump it.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

Three things you need to do Dave . . .

1)Dump the gas, get all new gas with StarTron in it

2)Replace the fuel filter

3)Come get my ZZR1200 running :shut:


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## Jags (Nov 3, 2011)

Whooo HOOO!  I love it when a plan comes together.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Three things you need to do Dave . . .
> 
> 1)Dump the gas, get all new gas with StarTron in it
> 
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Is star tron like stabil? (I picked up some stabil that is good for 15 gallons)

Can I put the gas in my car....(2002 subaru Forester...hate to just dump gas, but figured I'd ask)

been lookin over tha manual, and can't find the fuel filter...guessin that its in the tank somewhere perhaps near where the feed line is attached that goes to the carb...gotta check this later.

Going to let it sit for a few hours and go out and try it again. Do all you guys shut off the fuel flow and then just let the engine run out? I would think that this is a good approach to take.


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## maple1 (Nov 3, 2011)

Hmm, sounds like that guy who replied first was onto something. 

I would put the gas in the car - should burn it OK. If it was me here, I'd put some ISO in it first, in case there's some water in it.

I've found it's usually less than a 50% chance that you can get a carb ungunked & running right without removing the jets & manually cleaning them out - sounds like you are on the lucky side, or I'm on the unlucky side.

Couple of notes : anything you spray into the air intake will not end up in the float bowl, it will go right into the engine - so it usually doesn't do much good in cleaning the carb, but might work for getting it running & diagnosing. There might not be a typical fuel filter, there might only be a screen on the carb inlet where the gas line hooks on. And finally, I would get it running, turn the gas off, let it run itself out, then pull the gas line off and sitck it into a gas jug and turn the gas back on to drain the tank. Loosen the drain screw on the bottom of the carb to make extra sure there is nothing in there. Always try to store the generator with no fuel in it at all, or at least very little in the tank and NONE in the carb.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

gd9704 said:
			
		

> If it was only running okay with the choke on, that's classic crud in the carb.  I'll bet that when you jostled the generator taking it from home to your friends some dirt got dislodged from somewhere and found it's way into the carb.  If it's running off and on, I'd hit it with a dose of Techron or other good carb cleaner and run it.....I've had good luck going this route to avoid dismantling carbs if I can help it.



Sorry Maple, but this Dude -or Duddette- gets the award for the first correct WAG.

WTG


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

maple1 said:
			
		

> Hmm, sounds like that guy who replied first was onto something.
> 
> I would put the gas in the car - should burn it OK. If it was me here, I'd put some ISO in it first, in case there's some water in it.
> 
> ...



All good stuff...thanks Maple.
I'm going to work on it some more tomorrow....draining the fuel/new fuel, etc...
Cause I am a glutton for punishment  , what would be the diagnosis of when I had it running at first, but it would only run on full choke? (Seems like full choke means no/less air going into the carb/engine? I had it running for like 3-4 minutes on full choke, and then would die out if I moved the choke even the smallist amount to the left.
Again, thanks.


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## bluedogz (Nov 3, 2011)

[quote author="daveswoodhauler" date="1320364747] (Seems like full choke means no/less air going into the carb/engine? I had it running for like 3-4 minutes on full choke, and then would die out if I moved the choke even the smallist amount to the left.
Again, thanks.[/quote]

Actually, full choke means more fuel going into the cylinder, not less air.  Setting the choke opens another valve that allows extra gas in, that's all.  So, from a ratio perspective, I guess, that's less air.

The float valve (the one under that spring thingy) is the main fuel source.  The choke valve is generally on a completely separate circuit.  So, gunk in/around the float can jam you up and starve the bowl of fuel, but opening the choke opens the "back door" to let more gas in.

That's why I suggested the basics: check air, fire, fuel,  compression.  Easiest that way.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

Gas:Air  are like Vermouth:Gin

if you had to choke it, it was getting too much air (vacume leak) or not enough gas (Low float level, dirt in a passage)


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2011)

We going for a longest post thing here, or what?


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 3, 2011)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Gas:Air  are like Vermouth:Gin
> 
> if you had to choke it, it was getting too much air (vacume leak) or not enough gas (Low float level, dirt in a passage)



Got it, one day I will get it. No longest post try....I am just one that really doesn't learn if I don't understand the mechanics of stuff.
This is why my wife helps the kids with thier homework. Maybe I should relabel the post "If your generator wont run, check here first"


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## mecreature (Nov 3, 2011)

sure like that yellow cart.. have one myself..

us stabil 100% of the time from now on. And run frequently.  I use marine stabil or seafoam... 

bad gas and gunk will be a thing of the past....


JMO


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## MasterMech (Nov 4, 2011)

daveswoodhauler said:
			
		

> Ok, working on it on my lunch. Did not drain the tank yet, as I wanted to see if fuel was making it to the carb.
> With the air cleaner off, I sprayed some carb cleaner in and it would start and run, but only on full choke...as soon as I moved it one click to run from choke, would sputter and die.
> Ok, took of the bowl. And the bowl had gas in it....or...not sure if it was gas, or the carb cleaner i sprayed in it.
> So, anyway, dumped out the bowl and cleaned the bowl only with carb cleaner.
> ...



This sounds like water in the fuel.  Did I miss the carb cleaning?  I didn't see where he blew carb clean through the jets/idle orifices.  Dumping the bowl gets rid of the water depending on how much was in the tank to begin with.  A little more finds it's way into the carb and then the problem repeated, got better, repeats, and clears.  Choking it pull more liquid from the carb and the engine then runs on the water/fuel mix and one of 2 things happens.  More water from the tank enters the bowl and stalls the engine or the engine draws off the water and the incoming fuel slowly absorbs the remainder (a benefit of having ethanol in the fuel already) and that is burnt off.

Dump the tank of fuel Dave and make sure it's empty, not just drained via the fuel outlet.  Water is denser than gas and so it always resides in the very bottom of the tank/bowl.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 4, 2011)

Actually. . .anytime ya dump gas, dump it into a glass container so you can see whats actually in your gas. As MM points out, the gas will float on the water. The dirt will settle on the bottom.


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## daveswoodhauler (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks MM and Jimbo. All this is making more sense to me now...the water is denser than the fuel, so the water gets to the carb first.
Going to drain everything over the weekend, and do the same on my lawn mower.
Again, thanks for the help as you guys got it running, taught me something, and saved me some cash.


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