# Froling controller options



## DanW (Mar 11, 2013)

Good day,

I've just received a quote on an FHG 50. The boiler comes with what the vendor calls an "S series" controller which controls blower speed. The "L series" controller (Lambda) continually adjusts primary and secondary air to maximize burn based on the O2 sensor. I haven't found anything on Froling sites discussing the controller options. Boiler price (canadian) $7950 base, $10,300 with upgraded contoller.

Have any Froling owners run their boilers with the basic controller, and then upgraded and can comment on the difference. I am leaning towards the higher level of control (do it right the first time), it's just that $2350 is a lot of cheese, and I can afford the price of this question.

Thanks.

Dan


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## kopeck (Mar 11, 2013)

I looked at the Lambda less Froling boiler (the Lambda equipped was out of my price range).  When I talked the sales guy about it he told me I would be just as well off with the Tarm Solo Innova and it cost less money so that's the direction, the other boiler I was looking at, so that what I went with.

Much of the what makes the Froling attractive is the Lambda controls so with out them they're really like a lot of other negative draft boilers.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't get one, I'm sure they're still really good units.

K


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## DanW (Mar 11, 2013)

Thanks kopeck. As far as budget goes, this is what I've seen for pricing around where I am:

Biomass 60             $7750 + freight,
EKO 60                   $7050 + freight,
Empyre elite 200    $9395 + freight,
Garn 1500              $14,245 +freight.
So the base Froling FHG 50 at $7944.34 including freight seems to be in the running as non Lambda, and the Lambda controlled at $10,300 and its level of automation is not out of the question. I realize that the boilers in my list have different ratings and features so there not entirely apples for apples.


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## OldStoneHouse (Mar 11, 2013)

Dan - not sure where in Canada you are but you might look at a Vigas as well.  I saw one in operation on the weekend and it was impressive.  There's a dealer in Brockville, ON.  I'm in the same boat as you and trying to decide - I still like the Tarm units myself.  





DanW said:


> Thanks kopeck. As far as budget goes, this is what I've seen for pricing around where I am:
> 
> Biomass 60 $7750 + freight,
> EKO 60 $7050 + freight,
> ...


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## DanW (Mar 11, 2013)

Changed info to show location. I feel like I've "boiled" it down to the Froling, just trying to figure out controls. I just showed a short list to offer comparison.

I became interested in boilers ~9 years ago when I moved into the hills. I started out like many others, looking at OWBs, there are a few Central boilers around here.
I've evovled to wanting a gasifier with storage and am ready to pull the trigger.

Dan


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## OldStoneHouse (Mar 11, 2013)

Very good - I didn't think I could get the Froling to work in my basement but now you've got me wondering if I can rethink things and have it work okay.  It's a beautiful piece of machinery!  



DanW said:


> Changed info to show location. I feel like I've "boiled" it down to the Froling, just trying to figure out controls. I just showed a short list to offer comparison.
> 
> I became interested in boilers ~9 years ago when I moved into the hills. I started out like many others, looking at OWBs, there are a few Central boilers around here.
> I've evovled to wanting a gasifier with storage and am ready to pull the trigger.
> ...


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## hiker88 (Mar 11, 2013)

bbarbeau said:


> Very good - I didn't think I could get the Froling to work in my basement but now you've got me wondering if I can rethink things and have it work okay. It's a beautiful piece of machinery!


 
It sure is


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## Tennman (Mar 11, 2013)

Huh... I surprised that a non-lambda BioMass and Froling are so close in price. I thot the 60 BioMass was going for about 5900... or around 6 grand these days. Could be wrong. If I could have had either for the same price....hummm. But perfectly happy with the 60 BioMass I bought for I think 5500 four years ago. But the reason I chimed in here is that after 4 seasons of use with different grades and types of wood, etc.... I'm gonna take my chances with technology next time around and go the fully boat on lambda controls. Everyone has to have a budget but I'd buy the controls. Rarely see the Lambda guys here asking questions.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 11, 2013)

Can the lambda control be retrofitted to the frohling at a later date. If so how much?

Personally I dont see the need for lambda controls. But if you can buy without and upgrade later might be an option to consider.


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## maple1 (Mar 11, 2013)

DanW said:


> Thanks kopeck. As far as budget goes, this is what I've seen for pricing around where I am:
> 
> Biomass 60 $7750 + freight,
> EKO 60 $7050 + freight,
> ...


 

Are those for purchase from a Canadian dealer/distributor? Or cross border?


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## DanW (Mar 11, 2013)

Tennman said:


> Huh... I surprised that a non-lambda BioMass and Froling are so close in price. I thot the 60 BioMass was going for about 5900... or around 6 grand these days. Could be wrong. If I could have had either for the same price....hummm. But perfectly happy with the 60 BioMass I bought for I think 5500 four years ago. But the reason I chimed in here is that after 4 seasons of use with different grades and types of wood, etc.... I'm gonna take my chances with technology next time around and go the fully boat on lambda controls. Everyone has to have a budget but I'd buy the controls. Rarely see the Lambda guys here asking questions.


 
Remember that I'm in Canada, where I pay ~40 bucks for a 24 of beer. Seems like the boiler prices are relatively higher as well. I am leaning towards the Lambda for the servo controlled primary/secondary air control. I could then let the "fine tuning" take care of itself. I have a seemingly endless supply of dead standing Jack Pine available, and sometimes get into Douglas Fir. No hardwood. I work at a sawmill and have access to kiln dried SPF as well, I sometimes stack 2x6 in the woodstove and it doesn't flash up to badly.


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## DanW (Mar 11, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Are those for purchase from a Canadian dealer/distributor? Or cross border?


 
Canadian.


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## DanW (Mar 11, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Can the lambda control be retrofitted to the frohling at a later date. If so how much?
> 
> Personally I dont see the need for lambda controls. But if you can buy without and upgrade later might be an option to consider.


 
Upgrade is an option down the road as well. I don't yet know if I buy the base model (and recieve it's controller) and then order the Lambda, does the upgrade price increase. This crossed my mind beacause even if I installed the Lambda right away, I would have a back up on site.


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## Tennman (Mar 12, 2013)

Ok.... I didn't think about the exchange rate... but still a little confused that there's very little price differential between Froling and BioMass. Could be explained if there was a Canadian Froling importer and New Horizons in the U.S. is the only BioMass importer. Again, I only chime in here because I'm a happy BioMass owner who likes the idea of lambda controls. In the BioMass sticky we currently have a new user who is experimenting with adding an oxygen sensor and display from the automotive world to give us half of the lambda solution. I.e. sensing the oxygen in the flue so we can manually adjust our shutters. This issue is more important to me as a non-storage burner since I often run "off optimal". Maybe next season when I'm able to run 100% fan and get my shutters better optimized for wide open burning maybe I'll become less concerned about the tuning like MikefromMaine appears to be..... But from where I stand at the moment, and as a guy who burns all kinds of wood species, having the boiler sort out all that discussion in the "Tuning EKO" sticky sounds mighty appealing to me. My 2 cents, but I'd really at least like the ability to add it later. Particuarly when I see the price comparison. Fun decisions, enjoy.


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## DanW (Mar 12, 2013)

Tennman said:


> Ok.... I didn't think about the exchange rate... but still a little confused that there's very little price differential between Froling and BioMass. Could be explained if there was a Canadian Froling importer and New Horizons in the U.S. is the only BioMass importer. Again, I only chime in here because I'm a happy BioMass owner who likes the idea of lambda controls. In the BioMass sticky we currently have a new user who is experimenting with adding an oxygen sensor and display from the automotive world to give us half of the lambda solution. I.e. sensing the oxygen in the flue so we can manually adjust our shutters. This issue is more important to me as a non-storage burner since I often run "off optimal". Maybe next season when I'm able to run 100% fan and get my shutters better optimized for wide open burning maybe I'll become less concerned about the tuning like MikefromMaine appears to be..... But from where I stand at the moment, and as a guy who burns all kinds of wood species, having the boiler sort out all that discussion in the "Tuning EKO" sticky sounds mighty appealing to me. My 2 cents, but I'd really at least like the ability to add it later. Particuarly when I see the price comparison. Fun decisions, enjoy.


 
I'm not sure if its exchange related, we're close to par now. Perhaps duties and Tariffs when bringing a non-US made product from the US to Canada. I do believe that the Froling comes direct to Canada now. Its price has dropped dramatically over the last couple of years.


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## Tennman (Mar 12, 2013)

I kicked around upgrading to a Garn vs adding storage and the concensus was the Garn was more ideally suited to a radiant heat application. I'm stuck with forced air so that may be a factor for you in your decision process. But if you're doing radiant virtually all the Garn guys are happy campers. When you go with a full system with storage from jump street the Garn becomes tantalizingly close in price, probably within several thousand. Well... have fun.


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## skfire (Mar 12, 2013)

DanW said:


> Upgrade is an option down the road as well. I don't yet know if I buy the base model (and recieve it's controller) and then order the Lambda, does the upgrade price increase. This crossed my mind beacause even if I installed the Lambda right away, I would have a back up on site.


 
In my humble opinion, bite the bullet if financially feasible and get the FHG-L.
The Lambda is well worth the extra bucks.
I as well had to scrape up the extra dough for the system and do not regret the decision to date.
After 2 years(heating seasons) with it, I would not dream of messing without it.
I have 966 hrs on it and no problems. This year went through 4.5 cords(cherry, ash, oak) for heat and Domestic hot water(family of 4, 2.800 sq ft house, all radiant heat, 56,000 btu/hr heat loss @ 10f)

I load, light, wait 2-3 minutes, close the door and walk away. Admittedly I come back to check the parameters' status, simply because I AM AN ADDICT! I have boiler issues, according to my wife and kids.

Good luck in whichever route you opt for, you are in the perfect place here for your info, all the people in this forum are fantastic and more knowledgeable and helpful than most.
Again I highly recommend the Lamda.

Scott


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## scooby074 (Mar 12, 2013)

Subscribed.

I love the look of the Froling boilers with the Lambda for my next place. lots of control and remote monitoring options. This thread should be educational for me.


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## skfire (Mar 12, 2013)

DanW said:


> Remember that I'm in Canada, where I pay ~40 bucks for a 24 of beer. .


 
That is just WRONG man 

Scott


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## Floydian (Mar 12, 2013)

skfire said:


> That is just WRONG man


 
Seriously! Time for some home brew.

Noah


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 12, 2013)

Before I had storage I could see the benifit of lambda controls, they may have helped some. Even though I would never have paid for them. To me they are added cost, complexity and future maintance items.

Now that I have storage I don't see any reason to have lambda. Twice in the last week I've  looked at my chimney after starting fire and thought the fire was out because I couldn't see any smoke. Went downstairs to see the boiler happily cruising along at 190.  I just don't see spending an extra 2k for the controls.  Spend a week manually adjusting the shutters and pocket the 2k.


Edit, now that I think of it can you even buy a lambda boiler that doesn't 'require' storage? So how much of the benefits of storage are being credited to the lambda controls?


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 12, 2013)

Does the Lambda control stir your fuel when there is a bridge?

On the serious side. In the shop is a temporary setup EKO 25. (Final install after the thaw) Within 10 days I have locked in the settings that work. Primary, secondary, and fan speed are set. If any tweeking is needed for whatever reason I increase or decrease the fan opening. Very simple.

Will the lambda truly minimize the wood usage over 15 years to justify its cost?


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 12, 2013)

Blue Tornado said:


> Does the Lambda control stir your fuel when there is a bridge?


No but I think it will make coffee while you load the boiler. Not sure though.


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## hiker88 (Mar 12, 2013)

Blue Tornado said:


> Does the Lambda control stir your fuel when there is a bridge?


 
No, but it is really amazing to watch it throttle down the primary setting and fan speed when the wind is gusting 40+ on a ten below night.


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## Fred61 (Mar 12, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Before I had storage I could see the benifit of lambda controls, they may have helped some. Even though I would never have paid for them. To me they are added cost, complexity and future maintance items.
> 
> Now that I have storage I don't see any reason to have lambda. Twice in the last week I've looked at my chimney after starting fire and thought the fire was out because I couldn't see any smoke. Went downstairs to see the boiler happily cruising along at 190. I just don't see spending an extra 2k for the controls. Spend a week manually adjusting the shutters and pocket the 2k.
> 
> ...


 With my daily four hour batch burn, I had been thinking the same thing. I'm down to one short idle session in each burn when the tank temperature approaches 178 and if my estimate of how much wood I loaded is close, there is nothing but charcoal in the box at that time. Up until 2 weeks ago, I had the air set at the sweet spot for 4 years. I happened to get into a section of my wood pile that was measuring 9 to 10 percent moisture and I found the need to reduce the air supply.

In this weather where it's not cold enough out for the chimney to steam, I can't see anything but shimmering air emitting from the chimney.


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## jebatty (Mar 12, 2013)

An interesting side note on the FHG50-L is that the controller can dial down the output from 50kw (170,000 btu), if I remember correctly, to 40kw and 30kw. That helps during shoulder seasons and lets the Froling operate according to demand conditions.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 12, 2013)

How does that work?  And how is it different from any boiler with a  controller that also modulates the fan speed down as the boiler nears its setpoint?


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## hiker88 (Mar 12, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> How does that work? And how is it different from any boiler with an rk2000 controller that also modulates the fan speed down as the boiler nears its setpoint?


 
It monitors flu gas temps and as they get close to, or start to exceed the optimal temp for gassification, it closes down the primary to let less air go through the boiler, fan slows as well.

It will do this even if it is below the set point.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 12, 2013)

hiker88 said:


> It monitors flu gas temps and as they get close to, or start to exceed the optimal temp for gassification, it closes down the primary to let less air go through the boiler, fan slows as well.
> 
> It will do this even if it is below the set point.


What is the benefit of this? (Assuming you have storage)


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## hiker88 (Mar 12, 2013)

Apparently gassification does not work as well when flu gas temps start to exceed 250c.


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## hiker88 (Mar 12, 2013)

My apologies to the OP if we're getting you off track.  I know your original post was asking if there were any Froling users that started off without the controls but added them later.  I'm not one of those, so I probably shouldn't have said anything.  I just can't help myself sometimes when it comes to talking about the boiler.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 12, 2013)

My advice to the op is if you want a frohling buy it  without the lambda controls. And upgrade later if you really think it is necessary. (Assuming there isnt a huge cost penalty upgrading later) But do storage no matter what boiler you buy.

And the price quoted for the biomass seems high.


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## DanW (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks for all of the replies. No apologies necessary, I've been observing here long enough to appreciate the fact that threads sometimes take a tangent, and there are strong opinions/passions/obsessions for all of us. I really liked the question about stirring the fuel if it bridges, if someone funds the project, I'm sure that we could make it happen, perhaps a magnetostrictive transducer (temposonic cylinder) to provide feedback of the stroke of the rods which do the stirring...

May I have some input from the guys with non-Lambda boilers who say essentially "once its dialed in your done". Does MC affect that practice? How easy is start-up (read wife friendly as required)?

Thanks

Dan.


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## __dan (Mar 12, 2013)

Had my first grader niece over to light the Froling. Her brother had first offer and turned it down. She put the wood in, I put the paper. She was a little freaked by the piezo propane torch I gave her to light the paper, her father helped her with that. We watched through the lighting door for a while. I thought we were done and I closed it. They kept pointing to the doors and telling me to open the doors. It was funny, I wasn't really paying attention and opened the primary chamber door. She had put in small dry splits I would not normally even notice. So the smoke rolled up and out into the bypass and lit off nice, smoke and flames into the bypass. All I could hear was "close it, close it", I was laughing.

Nice to see the Froling getting some love. A very well balanced and finely engineered high quality piece of front line equipment. (guess I won't be able to sneak into the W G underground now)

If you're going to modulate you definitely need a Belimo operator on the primary draft in addition to the variable fan speed. In standard applications it's a lot easier to throttle by valving the suction side of the fan or pump. The S does not show this. You have to ask the dealer, but trying to add the lambda control package at a later date could double or more the cost of the parts. The difference is usually between buying an engineered package (with the package discount) and buying the items individually at retail or repair prices. You can buy a Yamaha for $15,000 that may be $250,000 if you bought the same bike as parts individually.

If the $2000. adder is a deal breaker, the Froling still has advantages the other manufacturers should just copy, as bad as that sounds. The cast iron nozzles with the secondary air coming in between the top of the 300 lb ceramic block and the underside of the steel nozzle is genius (and there is no visible wear). My brother was surprised how fast the secondary rumble started from a cold start, 1 - 2 min, (away three days, the house was still warm in cold weather). If you have a decent job, low debt, and can put the lambda adder on your credit card now, do it. If you wanted a guess as to if you would see it back in saved fuel, the guess is no. If you wanted a guess as to if you would see the savings in more convenience, easier operating for others when you're away, less instances of fighting the burn, the guess is yes absolutely. The Belimo operators are always moving, they do not sit there and do nothing.

I've been cleaning my yard of debris, burning stuff that would never burn in a stove. Most of the ash stays in the bottom of the primary chamber. I've been cleaning ~ once a month taking out 2 gallon at a time. The stainless outside flue is staying clean, washed by H2O condensate. If I want to see smoke, I look at the neighbors stove flue.


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## jebatty (Mar 13, 2013)

The Froling requires storage. Of the four gasification boilers with which I have personal experience (Wood Gun, Tarm Solo, Garn and Froling), none of them should have a load of wood that can't be burned to completion, and three of them (Wood Gun, Tarm and Froling) should not be loaded for a burn that will smolder with the boiler going through repeated idle cycles. Only the Garn will keep the burn going to the max on an overload without smoldering and idling, but the consequence on an overload is boiling over and possible shutdown due to low water resulting from the boil over.

Storage makes it far easier to eliminate idling, and even for the Garn storage better allows burning wood loads to completion. But even with storage, a person needs to do some smart loading, because with a load of wood and storage with insufficient charge capacity, smoldering and idling are the natural results for the Wood Gun, Tarm and Froling, and boiling over is the natural result for the Garn.


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## skfire (Mar 13, 2013)

No, the Lambda and controller do not stir your coffee or clear your bridging, but I am sure we all have a coffee maker without fancy electronics and clocks and such for all that..and maybe we should start looking at cars without Lamda sensors and fancy electronics as well....and these computers and internet forums...damned hamsters in wheels power these things....and bridging can be avoided with smart loading and even if it happens no sweat, take care of it when u check on the boiler.

In all seriousness, the electronics and the Lambda set up on the FGH-L are not that fancy and sensitive, they are used for different boiler models in Europe and have been field tested for years, with no known failures(I researched this in Europe before I bought the boiler). If it is a matter of the $, then by all means people can do without, but the choice is there and for good reasons.
Different strokes for different folks and opinions are like you know what...everyone has them, but unless you have experience with something recommendations are to be considered as such.

Regarding the adjustments, unless all the fuel is always perfectly same(size, shape, m/c, type of wood etc), the loads always stacked the same, the atmospheric conditions same, the storage status availability and heat demand at time of burn or shortly thereafter, then set values work fine. Solid fuel burn is inherently a modulating condition and having set air parameters works but not optimally, where having modulating air adjustment adopts to the fluctuating conditions and vice versa as needed.
Additionally I like the fact that the controller runs the loading pump on/off based on boiler and flue gas temperatures after the burn has been completed preventing condensation in the vessel as well. Also like the fact that it leaves a good bed of coals for the next fire.
In regards to gassification the optimal Flue gas range is around 350-400f for the FGH-L (around the 375 range seems to be the sweet spot,considering average maintenance conditions). Values higher than that do have a negative effect on a few levels but controlling the actual gassification parameters in the lower chamber is a complex equation and mixture constantly in a state of flux, good read re:
http://bioweb.sungrant.org/NR/rdonlyres/F4AE220B-0D98-442C-899F-177CFD725ADD/0/Gasification.pdf.

I do not want to HAVE TO monitor my heating system, I want it it work for me while I work or live, but I want it to be as efficient as possible.
Not for everyone but it works for me and I do not feel the need to condemn or ridicule anything and only voice a dissenting opinion if a system or value imposes on other people.

Scott

.


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## kopeck (Mar 13, 2013)

I think you would still benefit from the Lambda controls with storage.  The idea is that it's constantly monitoring the stack and adjusting the primary/secondary air to get the most efficient burn.  It's pretty amazing to see it work, every load of wood is a bit different and the Lambda controls account for that.

That being said there's something to be said for simple as well.  My primary/secondary settings haven't changed all year and are only a very small tweak different then what I did all last year.  Is it's running at it's highest efficiency all the time, probably not but it works well for me and it's one less thing I have to worry about.

The ultimate "Simple Setup" is the Garn.

K


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## maple1 (Mar 13, 2013)

jebatty said:


> The Froling requires storage. Of the four gasification boilers with which I have personal experience (Wood Gun, Tarm Solo, Garn and Froling), none of them should have a load of wood that can't be burned to completion, and three of them (Wood Gun, Tarm and Froling) should not be loaded for a burn that will smolder with the boiler going through repeated idle cycles. Only the Garn will keep the burn going to the max on an overload without smoldering and idling, but the consequence on an overload is boiling over and possible shutdown due to low water resulting from the boil over.
> 
> Storage makes it far easier to eliminate idling, and even for the Garn storage better allows burning wood loads to completion. But even with storage, a person needs to do some smart loading, because with a load of wood and storage with insufficient charge capacity, smoldering and idling are the natural results for the Wood Gun, Tarm and Froling, and boiling over is the natural result for the Garn.


 
A properly operating dump zone that would move extra heat into the living space would be a key element here in helping to avoid idling. You might have to take some clothes off for a while, but hey....


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## hiker88 (Mar 13, 2013)

maple1 said:


> A properly operating dump zone that would move extra heat into the living space would be a key element here in helping to avoid idling. You might have to take some clothes off for a while, but hey....


 
Correct,

The Froling has two temperature wells.  One is for the control unit and the other is for a close on rise aquastat hooked to your largest heat zone.  Mine closes at 93c if I goof.


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## skfire (Mar 13, 2013)

DanW said:


> How easy is start-up (read wife friendly as required)?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dan.


 
Very easy.
Last November I suffered severe blunt force trauma to my right eye and was not allowed to even look at the boiler, let alone load or light it.
The wife and 2 kids(10 and 6 yrs old), took over, with NO PRACTICE WHATSOEVER, told then what to do and off they went and are still doing it to date.
Only once there was bridging due to a loading error and the boiler shut off prematurely due to high O2 levels early in the burn. The wife simply opened the doors, moved the log down, closed the doors, walked away and that was that, the boiler started it's cycle and ran normally.

Scott


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## hiker88 (Mar 13, 2013)

skfire said:


> Very easy, to the point of ridiculousness.
> Last November I suffered severe blunt force trauma to my right eye and was not allowed to even look at the boiler, let alone load or light it.
> The wife and 2 kids(10 and 6 yrs old), took over, with NO PRACTICE WHATSOEVER, told then what to do and off they went and are still doing it to date.
> Only once there was bridging due to a loading error and the boiler shut off prematurely due to high O2 levels early in the burn. The wife simply opened the doors, moved the log down, closed the doors, walked away and that was that, the boiler started it's cycle and ran normally.
> ...


 
I was skeptical about the no kindling - paper only start up but it works. I completely fill the wood box with 4-6 inch splits and add paper. One thing that I do is roll up my newspaper instead of balling them up. I find that the rolled up newspaper burns slower and it has worked for me every time. I wait until flue gasses reach 120c before closing the lighting door and safety door and this takes about 3 minutes. My wife who has never been around a wood stove or fireplace before lights the boiler once a week when my schedule has me out of the house early.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 13, 2013)

OK, Dan

Now that you have heard all of that, what do ya think?

I almost threw out an apology to the thin skinned posters but decided against. I posted here, directed to the original question, to lend my thoughts concerning the $2,000 investment. For me, it is just a fancy upgrade and instead will put the equivalent into storage and backup parts.

To each their own.


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## skfire (Mar 13, 2013)

Blue Tornado said:


> OK, Dan
> 
> Now that you have heard all of that, what do ya think?
> 
> ...


 
No need for apologies here, nothing to do with thin skinned...blah blah.
We just want educated discourse and factual analysis.
The rest is self serving waste of time.

Scott


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## DanW (Mar 13, 2013)

Blue Tornado said:


> OK, Dan
> 
> Now that you have heard all of that, what do ya think?


 
A lot of great info here. I still have some time to decide. A Vigas dealer has reached out and is putting together a quote. I am still open to options. Here is a little more about our situation.

I am involved in process control and automation work at a softwood lumber plant. I haven't carried over any of what I do at work into my personal life, I've never owned a cell phone let alone an I-phone (population ~300 where I live, no service). I usually leave the technology at work, and do outdoor stuff when off. The difference is: at work, the investment makes money, at home, not so much. We're raising a family and doing all sorts of renos, I don't want to build the controller.

Adding a heating system for us, will add more comfort than it will save money. The house is around 3350 sqft., 1200sqft unfinished basement heated to around 40f with electric baseboards, 1200sqft main heated with a Pacific Energy Spectrum woodstove, 950sqft upstairs. There are 16 electric baseboards in the house. The water heater is also electric. The shop is a 2 story 24' x 44' with (4) 250' runs of 1/2" pex in the slab (which is insulated on the bottom and sides). The shop has never been heated.

My wife and I were working opposite days and someone was usually home to keep the woodstove loaded. This is about to change. My highest 2 month utility bill this winter was $329 for 2 months. The only way to keep the cost so low is to not heat the shop, keep the basement cold, and live with the huge temperature swings that cycle with the woodstove. So if you just look at the numbers, it doesn't make much sense. We are quite frugal. This has put us into a reasonable financial position. We deserve to be more comfortable. The temperature swing in the living space goes from 60 to 80 degrees every day.

I have left a lot of these types of details out up until now because they represent more of the emotional reasons rather than the analytical side of choosing a boiler. I feel that in my situation where it is essentially an entirely new heating system, an initial overview is necessary, and then break it down into it's components. This thread was started to discuss the boiler itself. I hope to be involved in other threads regarding the other aspects such as storage, emitters, plumbing, expansion, etc...

I'm familiar with a similar motorcycle analogy that _Dan used in #34 except that it was in the Honda 600 in the early nineties. Something like $7000 for the bike, $120,000 for the parts.

So no cheques have been written, but I'm leaning towards the Froling with the Lambda. I appreciate all of the posts.


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## henfruit (Mar 13, 2013)

In the colder weather when i am filling the fire box twice a day.I can find a couple of embers from the previous fire twelve hours before, add a couple of pieces of kindling fill the fire box and hit the start button  and walk away.


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## Floydian (Mar 13, 2013)

DanW said:


> A Vigas dealer has reached out and is putting together a quote.


 
What a turn off. I'm sure the Vigas is worth considering but that just rubs me wrong.

Sorry DanW, just had to get that out.

Anyway, it sounds like your on the right track towards a higher degree of comfort, convenience and efficiency. I would recommend some research on panel radiators with TRVs, sized for low supply temps.(likely easiest retrofit option) Also, consider constant circulation and outdoor reset-Its awesome! Try some searches here as well as over at http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-category/92/Radiant-Heating

A room by room heat loss calc will be important as it will determine emitter sizing, supply temps, flow rates, storage sizing, etc.

Will you be doing everything yourself?

Good luck with all your upcoming decisions,

Noah


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 13, 2013)

Dan

Sounds like you have a very nice place, and your location is pretty cool too. I do love where I am in Michigan but do have a soft spot for the northwest after living a couple years in Oregon. Was there on May 18, 1980.

Those temp swings are a bugger and the exact opposite of radiant. Once you experience radiant heat it would be difficult to accept anything else, steady and warm 24/7.

No doubt, with your level head that an optimum decision will be made after gathering the facts and relating them to your situation. Hoping the best for you in that regard. Enjoy!


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 13, 2013)

Floydian said:


> What a turn off. I'm sure the Vigas is worth considering but that just rubs me wrong.
> 
> Noah


 

+1, Glad you said it.

I bet I can guess who it was...


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## DanW (Mar 13, 2013)

Floydian said:


> What a turn off. I'm sure the Vigas is worth considering but that just rubs me wrong. Noah


 

I didn't mind so much being contacted. I'm not sure if there is a history here with that sort of thing. There was no "ambulance chaser vibe" from the dealer. If there are other products, which have similar function, I'd rather know now.



Floydian said:


> Will you be doing everything yourself?
> 
> Noah


 
Not a chance. I hope for help from you and many others here.

Dan.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 13, 2013)

The vigas has lambda control. But only of the primary air settings. It does not adjust both the primary and secondary like the Froling and others.


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## henfruit (Mar 13, 2013)

The Vigas  does adjust the primary and secondary air.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 13, 2013)

henfruit said:


> The Vigas does adjust the primary and secondary air.


Independently like the Froling (or effecta or varm)?


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## Stew (Mar 13, 2013)

I've been lurking here from time to time over the years!  This thread has a lot of the info I was looking for. 
I am also looking at boiler options, and after lurking for a few weeks I'm leaning towards a unit with lambda control.
My design heatload is around 20kw, but my 21kw electric boiler never runs fullout.  I have infloor in the basement and garage slab,
and in 1+1/2" slab on 1st floor. 10% south facing triple gazing helps a lot.  Whole house is 2200sq ft + garage which I have not yet heated.  The total electric bill for weekend use is $800/year including heat and domestic hot water +2-3 face cords of hardwood for the EPA fireplace when we are there on  weekends. 
As in DanW's case the garage is not heated, basement is 55F,  and the whole house is 52F for 4 days a week.
As we are starting to spend more time there I'm looking into finally getting the wood boiler the house was designed to have when we built it in 2008.

So my questions are:
1) Besides Froling and Vigas are there any others with lambda control?
2) How much can I count on the basement slab as a heat sink?
3) Does anyone know of a Froling or Vigas distributor in Eastern Ont or Quebec? I have Ted Kestor's name from Brockville posted by bbarbeau, thank-you.
4) Does Bioheat have USA distributorship or USA and Canada distributorship for Froling?
Thanks for all the great info!


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## henfruit (Mar 13, 2013)

Yes, There are two inlet holes one for primary and one for secondary. The srevo motor moves the shutter to open or close to allow more or less air as the signal from the o2 sensor is sent to the controller then to the servo motor.Mike in May we will be at the loggers show in Bangor.You should stop by and see the Vigas in the flesh.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 13, 2013)

henfruit said:


> Yes, There are two inlet holes one for primary and one for secondary. The srevo motor moves the shutter to open or close to allow more or less air as the signal from the o2 sensor is sent to the controller then to the servo motor.Mike in May we will be at the loggers show in Bangor.You should stop by and see the Vigas in the flesh.


 

If I didnt know better Id say that sounds like a salesman trying to confuse the facts.


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## ewdudley (Mar 13, 2013)

henfruit said:


> Yes, There are two inlet holes one for primary and one for secondary. The srevo motor moves the shutter to open or close to allow more or less air as the signal from the o2 sensor is sent to the controller then to the servo motor.





mikefrommaine said:


> If I didnt know better Id say that sounds like a salesman trying to confuse the facts.



It sounds to me like a single servo adjusts the proportion of air between primary inlet and secondary inlet, same as Tom Caldwell set his up.  I don't see any disadvantage to the approach, plus there's one less servo to fail.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 13, 2013)

If there is no advantage to independently controlling the primary and secondary why do other lambda boilers go through the expense and trouble of having two servo motors?

Or for that matter why does any boiler lambda or not have independent primary and secondary air settings. Wouldn't it be easier to have fixed air settings and just adjust the total air flow through the boiler by adjusting fan speed?

Not trying to hurt any feelings. Just trying to understand how these boilers work.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 13, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Not trying to hurt any feelings. Just trying to understand how these boilers work.


 
Yeah Mike, it is has been discussed on this site in past threads. Personally it seems the net gain of lambda control weather it be financial, ease of use, less consumption or emissions is not equivalent to the cost of the device. When we opt for a wood burning boiler and the system necessary for heat transfer, we should consider spare parts. Pumps, valves, blowers, sensors and such already bring up the initial outlay. With the additional $2000 up front for the lambda unit, the previous mentioned spares and whatever spares for the lambda, yikes is all I have to say about that. Well almost. It is each person's perogative as they desire, but for me the additional outlay for marginal benefits doesn't quite get it.

If someone could point out in real terms the actual reaped benefits that exceed a non-lambda gasser that is worthy of the price tag, please jump in.


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## BoilerBob (Mar 13, 2013)

Different strokes for different folks!

Some folks will pay extra for automatic transmissions in their cars, others will clutch and shift for years, cause the extra money for automatic is not worth it.

Some folks get hydrostatic drive on tractors, others will set throttle, clutch and shift all day long.

As long as you enjoy what you got 

   PC


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## Brialin (Mar 14, 2013)

I bought a Vigas 40 to replace my 17 year old tarm that started leaking.  The lambda controls are worth it in my opinion.  I am using 20 to 25% less wood than with the tarm.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 14, 2013)

Well I asked what I thought were legitimate questions. Henfruit is a strong proponent of lambda controls. However, the boiler he sells uses a different 'lambda strategy' then the other lambda boilers. And I've never seen him explain why the strategy used by the vigas is better than the other lambda boilers.

I was under the impression that the froling and effecta and maybe the varm  and attak were a more advanced lambda system since they have independent control of the primary and secondary air settings and use two servo motors.  Perhaps I was wrong about that but the response from henfruit seemed designed to confuse more than explain.  If there is no advantage to having independent control why do the other boilers use this strategy?

And henfruit Im sure your boiler is well made like most of the eastern european boilers are. It's just that I dont trust the longevity of the electrical/computer components. And personally would prefer a simpler system that I can repair myself.

If legitimate questions are always answered with 'its a ford/chevy thing' then what's the point of having a discussion? This forum will just be an infomercial for different salesmen.


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## JP11 (Mar 14, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> It's just that I dont trust the longevity of the electrical/computer components. And personally would prefer a simpler system that I can repair myself.


To each his own.  I wouldn't think twice about replacing the circuit board, any sensor, or any part of my system.  In fact.. I'd be apt to fix any of that stuff myself.. and hire out any plumbing.

I prefer the lambda.  I'd rather get the peak efficiency.  When I look at how much it's adjusting the draft, fans and turning the pumps on and off.. I'm very happy that it's "running the show"

If you're not a computer guy.. that's ok.  But others are.

JP


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## tmudd (Mar 14, 2013)

skfire has it right when he talks of the ease of lighting  the frohling. I have the 50 with lambda control and it will literally light with three wadded up single newsprint and no kindling. I have found that stacking the load full and tight  leads to the best results. For me after owning an Aquatherm Omega Gassifier and going to the Frohling 50 with storage was like going from  naturally aspirated diesel  to a turbo charged diesel.  It really is a quality piece of equipment. It is so user friendly and automatic for a wood burning appliance. The monitor screen shows you at loading if you should load a 1/4,1/2,3/4 or full load. My brother has a 500 gallon  storage arrangement with a 6150 Royal Boiler and can usually top off his storage to 180  with one charge(load) of wood. The Frohling will heat 1000 gallons from 130 to 180 in one charge. I guess this excludes me too from the WG underground.
TLM


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## arngnick (Mar 14, 2013)

Stew said:


> I've been lurking here from time to time over the years!  This thread has a lot of the info I was looking for.
> I am also looking at boiler options, and after lurking for a few weeks I'm leaning towards a unit with lambda control.
> My design heatload is around 20kw, but my 21kw electric boiler never runs fullout.  I have infloor in the basement and garage slab,
> and in 1+1/2" slab on 1st floor. 10% south facing triple gazing helps a lot.  Whole house is 2200sq ft + garage which I have not yet heated.  The total electric bill for weekend use is $800/year including heat and domestic hot water +2-3 face cords of hardwood for the EPA fireplace when we are there on  weekends.
> ...



Varmebaronon makes a boiler with lambda control details can be seen at smokelessheat.com


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 15, 2013)

Hey Dan,

My apology to you if I have gummed up your thread.

While researching the potential benefits of having the lambda sensors and advanced controller, I see this outfit selling in North America.

http://www.loppernorthamerica.com/index.html

The name is Lopper and they offer the lambda controlled, modulating output wood boilers. For those who truly enjoy the light and walk away feature, this outfit has a self loader for you (1/2 face cord hopper). The boilers are available in (3/8" - 10mm) or (7/8" - 20mm thickness.) It looks like the loading unit may be a standard feature.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 15, 2013)

Blue Tornado said:


> Hey Dan,
> 
> My apology to you if I have gummed up your thread.
> 
> ...


 

Figured that deserves its own thread: 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ood-gasification-boiler-on-the-planet.107536/


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## scooby074 (Mar 15, 2013)

That autoloader is NEAT, but i can see so many things going slightly wrong and causing a major issue. Your wood would have to be perfect.


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## TCaldwell (Mar 16, 2013)

Mike, good questions, let me start by saying, on any given day a non lambda CAN burn as well as a lambda, however not on a repeatable consistent basis.
If you were able to identify, monitor and manipulate the known parameters a lambda boiler does, [ o2, co2 flue temp] on a real time basis you could come close. Your p/s air setting is a best case approximation for a batch burn that has consistently changing requirements. Your fixed setting has the capability to burn efficiently for one of the three burn stages if your wood pile has a consistent moisture content. I am referring to startup, middle of burn and ending, most fixed settings are tuned to the middle or longest part of the burn. This strategy works very well if you know your boiler's burn charachteristics and can change the settings if wood moisture content changes drastically. These are known documented facts.
          I think the confusion stems from how much of a advantage is lambda really? The answer is how far into it do you and the boiler mfgr want to go for a acceptable effiency increase and still be marketable. Each manufacturer creates a in there opinion a efficient boiler housing, [for water hx] and wood combustor [ transfer wood to heat] and a control package. With a highly competetive boiler market , lambda and non, alot of effort goes into the boiler housing and combustor design. It is probably safe to say most are very efficient and the playing field realitively even in this aspect, this is drilled into us with glossy multicolored boiler porn.
           Really very little info is given about the control package, other than it will burn your batch efficiently. Here lies the real difference in these boilers [ lambda] and how much effort is viable, for resale. I am going to list the differences of the degrees of lambda control, each with a different cost and effectiveness of that control, I am not able to transfer that to overall boiler effiency, and likely at the end of the day the manufacturers will want to tell you theirs is the best. All lambda systems start with  a o2 sensor and a thermocouple in the flue, that feedback goes to a controller that outputs a signal to the final control element[ damper] in a draft induced system, to keep on topic I will focus on this scenario, not a fan forced draft system.
       Simply the o2/ temp feedback provides the current combustion state, forwarded to the controller to calculate a correction for the damper to make, and is reflected in the next o2/ temp sampling sent to the controller. The controller is trying to maintain a predetermined setpoint , [optimum effiency for wood combustion] each mfgr has a one set based on their combustor design, usally can be changed. With this strategy, sensitivity of the feedback, controller and dampers could be thought to be required for success, again this is for you to decide. The least sensitive would be a stepper motor with a large step change in damper position, smaller step changes, and finally a modulating actuator would be the most sensitive with respect to controller output. The controller driving the stepper or modulating actuator can be a off the shelf $30 rudimentary single input/ output to one with a propriertary designed algorithim for multiple inputs/ outputs at $5000 or more. With added sensitivity comes calibration, maintainence and other costs.
    In my opinion a well tuned relatively sensitive lambda will consistently outperform a non lambda, however each lambda mfgr has to figure if they are going to hide behind the ''lambda badge'' or exceed it, in the end there is a boiler for every buyer, you choose!


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## __dan (Mar 16, 2013)

The spring sale is on:

http://www.woodboilers.com/springsale


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