# EKO Install Complete - UPS Selection



## hartkem (Sep 18, 2012)

My Eko 40 and 500 gallons of pressuirized storage is completed and works as intended. I have been waiting for some lower temps to do a test run and last night it got into the 40s so I decided to go ahead and see if all my work for the last 6 months paid off.  The Eko fired up and entered gasification mode without problems. Storage got up to 160 from 65 degrees. Im happy with the results.  Now I need to change gears and think about how I am going to protect the boiler in a power failure.  My boiler is in an outbuilding.  I would need to power the EKO controller and Taco 011 pump long enough to prevent the boiler from overheating.  I want to use a pure sine wave UPS to do this.  Can I buy one off the shelf to provide enough battery life or will I need to add external batteries? Can you add extra batteries to any UPS easily?  I don't know much about UPSs so I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 18, 2012)

Congrats. Nothing like the first fire!

I don't know much about ups's either. But I figured that they can fail too so I went with a NO zone valve and 64' of dedicated  finned copper overhead. Figured it was the simplest fail safe system available. I can have the boiler at 195 shut the power off and the temp starts dropping within two minutes.


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## hartkem (Sep 18, 2012)

This is in an outbuilding so I do have room overhead but I don't know how to hook that up.  Do you just tee in the boiler output and tee back in before the danfoos?  I would have to rework my plumbing which doesn't excite me.  A diagram would greatly help


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## maple1 (Sep 18, 2012)

Have any unused boiler tappings?


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## Eric Johnson (Sep 18, 2012)

I have a cast iron radiator in the unheated attic above my boiler, which I can either fill by opening a valve or automatically with a zone valve that opens when the power is cut. The only problem is that I don't have antifreeze in my system, so I have to drain off the water once the boiler has cooled, but before the water freezes. It's a bit of a cob job. I think a UPS is a much better approach.


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 18, 2012)

hartkem said:


> This is in an outbuilding so I do have room overhead but I don't know how to hook that up.  Do you just tee in the boiler output and tee back in before the danfoos?  I would have to rework my plumbing which doesn't excite me.  A diagram would greatly help




I put tees in as close to the boiler tappings as I could. If you have unused tappings that would be ideal. I used 1" copper which tees into two banks of 3/4" finned copper and then back to 1". I pitched everything but probably didn't need to.


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## hartkem (Sep 18, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Have any unused boiler tappings?


 
Only after the thermostatic valve. 

I have room to cut the 1 1/2 copper coming out of boiler and put a tee in it.  I do have a return tapping that I was going to use for a drain before I realized there was one coming directly out the bottom of the eko.  It is after the circ pump but I think it would still work. So really it wouldn't be too bad to just cut and solder new tee in.


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## stee6043 (Sep 19, 2012)

I'm using a APC UPS and I believe the model is a 1500 "Smart UPS".  It has (2) 12V batteries in it.  I've never run the batteries down to see how long I can really get out of it but I'm 100% confident I could get 3 hours min.  This would be more than enough time to finish off a load or at least shut things down safely.

These units can be had on eBay for a fraction of the cost of a new one.  Spend $70 on new batteries and sleep soundly.


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## dogwood (Sep 19, 2012)

Stee6043, what do you operate off the UPS?


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## kopeck (Sep 19, 2012)

Here's what I want to know, what do those of us with boilers that require 220 volts do? 

I can find 220v UPSes but they all use a single leg, not the the two 110 legs like we use here in the states.

Thanks,

K


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## jwad (Sep 19, 2012)

I just finished my install this week and I used an APC backup.  An aquastat in the wood boiler is connected to an extra pump plumbed in parallel and the aquastat is plugged into the backup outlet.  Temps get to 200 and the pump turns on to pump it down to 195 and turns off.  It cycles long enough till the fire is out.


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## hartkem (Sep 19, 2012)

I explored the idea of purchasing some copper finned tubing. This stuff is difficult to find in my area. Found some 3/4 8' long pieces on the internet. For 32' it was 200 bucks. Shipping was another 150 bucks.  I called three supply houses in my area and none of them carried it. Still open to the UPS way. I may explore ebay tonight.


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## stee6043 (Sep 19, 2012)

dogwood said:


> Stee6043, what do you operate off the UPS?



I run the boiler and the primary circ. That's it.


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## kopeck (Sep 19, 2012)

hartkem said:


> I explored the idea of purchasing some copper finned tubing. This stuff is difficult to find in my area. Found some 3/4 8' long pieces on the internet. For 32' it was 200 bucks. Shipping was another 150 bucks. I called three supply houses in my area and none of them carried it. Still open to the UPS way. I may explore ebay tonight.


 
Really?  It should be common, I mean it's used a a repair item all the time.

The local supply house had all I needed in stock, don't look for it at the big box stores, they don't carry that kind of thing.  I do remember thinking it wasn't all that expensive either and that was with the current copper prices.  I wouldn't try getting it shipped, just touching the fins bend them.  I would look around some more, someone has to have it local to you.

K


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## maple1 (Sep 19, 2012)

I've seen it on Kijiji here once in a while - there's always someone replacing it with something else like in floor or heat pump stuff. So try that or Craigslist.


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## hartkem (Sep 19, 2012)

kopeck said:


> Really? It should be common, I mean it's used a a repair item all the time.
> 
> The local supply house had all I needed in stock, don't look for it at the big box stores, they don't carry that kind of thing. I do remember thinking it wasn't all that expensive either and that was with the current copper prices. I wouldn't try getting it shipped, just touching the fins bend them. I would look around some more, someone has to have it local to you.
> 
> K


 
Maybe its the area of the country. Most homes around here have forced air.  Two of the major supply houses said they have never carried it or seen it without the housing. Ill keep looking. I have my primary circulator pump located very close to the inlet of my boiler. It has the integrated check valve.  I want to hook the overheat loop return line on the other side of the pump. The overheat loop water would have to flow through this pump. Will this work?  It would require major plumbing changes to prevent this.  I can just tee the copper line on the output of the boiler.


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## kopeck (Sep 20, 2012)

Wow, that seems really odd to me but it is what it is I suppose.

I would have to look but I think I paid $25.00 or so dollars per 8' length, 3/4".

Maybe I need to go back and buy some and sell it online. 

K


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## hartkem (Sep 20, 2012)

I found a place that can order it for 180 bucks per 8' length. Thats expensive!!


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## maple1 (Sep 20, 2012)

There HAS to be some used stuff around there somewhere. Metal recycling place? Second hand building supply place?


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## hartkem (Sep 20, 2012)

ill keep checking craigs list and try to find scrap metal place.  Seriously considering the battery backup and then wiring a relay into the blower to kill it when power goes out and only using battery backup to run the circ pump. Wonder how long a 1000 watt 1500kv ups would run a taco 011 pump.


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## rkusek (Sep 21, 2012)

Harkem and I live in the land of gas forced air heating. If you are outside the reach of the nat gas lines then you burn propane. A few oddballs like myself opted against propane and have the air source heat pumps since they both heat and cool. A handful of new homes install the ground source HPs but you are talking 25 grand here for the closed loop type with the wells. Residential boilers or any hydronic heating is almost unheard of. You would think with renovation of old commercial buildings you would see some of copper finned tubing around though.

I checked the Omaha craiglist and copper finned tubing returned nothing. I have looked for cast iron radiators in the past and the scrapyards were asking a lot for them I thought. I was hoping to find some of the radiators i remember seeing in old buildings as a kid, they were shorter (maybe 18" tall) and would work better across the ceiling for me than a full size rad. Menards has new copper finned tubing and it is $31 for 4ft without the ends and $66 for a 8 footer Still about $200 for a EKO40 like mine but might be the best choice. I've been running without any overheat protection in the past but not this winter.

My shop heater is just an old outdoor HP condensor unit from a junkyard. I been looking for a way to use this for overheat protection. Currently, I don't even have to run the fan (replaced with 120V motor) but if I do it must have a delta T of more than 100 degrees. It can handle the full load of the EKO 40 without ever going into idle. My thought is to use a pure sine wave inverter (or UPS) with a deep cycle battery to cover power outages but this won't cover cases where the boiler circ or primary loop circ would fail. My primary loop circ was making noise last winter so anything could happen. If this happens your boiler will still overheat. I thought about adding another circ triggered by an overheat aquastat that would tee right into my shop heater line. The check valve on the circ that normally feeds the shop heater should force the hot water through the coils but I would have to run some type of return line back to the bottom of the boiler and this would need some type of zone valve. This all begins to get more complicated with more things to fail so using the overhead finned tube is still probably the best option. Looks like Menards is not in KC??, but Topeka and St Joe have them. Here is some links to their site and the specs. About 630 btu per foot (at 190 degrees) which in line with what others on Hearth have quoted in the past.
http://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/hydronic-radiant-heat/emitters/c-8518.htm
http://www.menards.com/main/store/2...onMorris/Prod_Tech_Spec/Baseboardemitters.pdf


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## maple1 (Sep 21, 2012)

Found these real quick:

http://lincoln.craigslist.org/mat/3254417286.html

http://lincoln.craigslist.org/zip/3254408235.html

On second look, looks like they're the same thing...


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## hartkem (Sep 21, 2012)

Thanks Rkusek,

Im actually in omaha right now and will be going by St. Joe on my way home. Looks like the hydronic emitters are special order. At least I have options for buying some at a decent price. Now to decide which way to go. UPS or overheat loop. Overheat loop seems to be a better option so long as its ok for the water to flow through the pump as I described above in an earlier post. Also, do I have to tee in right at the boiler output or can it be a foot or so away? Its not the highest point but only about 6 inches lower than the output of the boiler. Also concerned about heat loss through conduction.  Even without water flow seems like heat would conduct through the metal. Maybe a effieciency concern since my boiler is in an outbuilding.


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## rkusek (Sep 21, 2012)

Look at page 13 in the manual.  http://smokelessheat.com/Media/FurnaceDocuments/EKOLine/ekoline.pdf
You can see they show the Automag valve that opens when the electricity goes out and water will thermosiphon through the copper finned tubing shedding heat.  They show the return plumbed back in after the Danfoss/Termovar but ahead of the boiler circ.  Personally, I would think it would be better after the circ right at the bottom port of the boiler.  I think you would want the Automag located at the same level as the output of the boiler like the picture shows.  MikefromMaine, do you have the swing or spring check on your return like this shows?  One would think the closed automag would stop any flow back through the return under normal operation.  I suppose you could get "ghost flows" where it flows both directions on that return line.  Looks like we need and Automag valve, swing check valve, some copper or black iron for the supply side and should be able to get by with pex for return side.

That steam radiator maple1 found on the Lincoln craiglist would probably do the job too if you could get it mounted somehow securely near the ceiling.  Might be easier to just shell out the $200 for the new finned tube which can be screwed right to the wall.


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## maple1 (Sep 21, 2012)

I'm not sure why a check valve would be needed? Seems the automag valve tied to power would be all that would be required. Also I might be leery of the gravity flow overcoming the built in circ check valve.


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 21, 2012)

I have a spring check on the main piping, not on the overheat loop. I use a taco sentry NO zone valve which does not allow any ghost flow in my no power overheat loop as it is closed during normal operation.

As far as flowing through the pump i dont think it will be a problem. Not sure though if it has an internal flow check.  I have two indirect water heaters piped in series, with a circulator loop between the two. I had planned to have the pump come on when my wood boiler is at temp and off if I was burning only oil. I found that with the pump off that the two tanks maintained equal temps due to thermosiphoning between the two tanks (through the pump) as well as if the pump was on.


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## mikefrommaine (Sep 21, 2012)

Here is a pic of my overheat loop return, its the 1" copper pipe.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/dscf1383-jpg.56142/


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## hartkem (Sep 21, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> Here is a pic of my overheat loop return, its the 1" copper pipe.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/dscf1383-jpg.56142/


Looks good,

I went and ordered three 8' sections of the fin-tube.  After looking at my boiler piping again it looks like everything will work out good.  I can remove my pressure/temp gauge and add a tee on the supply side so I don't have to cut any copper.  Now the question is since my 10x12 boiler shack has an open insulated loft, do I need to install the fin tube all the way up to the peak or can I just install it at the top of the walls which is only about 3 or 4 feet above the boiler. I would prefer not to put it up at the peak but I will if the wall height isn't enough.


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## steam man (Sep 22, 2012)

kopeck said:


> Here's what I want to know, what do those of us with boilers that require 220 volts do?
> 
> I can find 220v UPSes but they all use a single leg, not the the two 110 legs like we use here in the states.
> 
> ...


 
I have to think about this but you still have 220-240V if you wire between both legs and a ground. I'd wire it up. Besides, you can use a 110V UPS and then use a 110V-220V tranformer. I've used them many times.

Also, I have used a large UPS that we wired in parallel more batteries in a separate storage compartment for longer run times. It works fine.


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## maple1 (Sep 22, 2012)

hartkem said:


> Looks good,
> 
> I went and ordered three 8' sections of the fin-tube. After looking at my boiler piping again it looks like everything will work out good. I can remove my pressure/temp gauge and add a tee on the supply side so I don't have to cut any copper. Now the question is since my 10x12 boiler shack has an open insulated loft, do I need to install the fin tube all the way up to the peak or can I just install it at the top of the walls which is only about 3 or 4 feet above the boiler. I would prefer not to put it up at the peak but I will if the wall height isn't enough.


 
I'd get it as high as possible - the higher it is, the better the flow will be through it. My old dump zone was some first floor fin-tube (quite a bit of it), so about maybe 4' above the top of the boiler. It didn't really flow the best, there were a couple of times when it was dumping and my boiler was still showing 220° and making those nerve wracking boiling noises inside. I'd then just manually open the second floor zone valves and things would cool right down.


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## kopeck (Sep 22, 2012)

steam man said:


> I have to think about this but you still have 220-240V if you wire between both legs and a ground. I'd wire it up. Besides, you can use a 110V UPS and then use a 110V-220V tranformer. I've used them many times.
> 
> Also, I have used a large UPS that we wired in parallel more batteries in a separate storage compartment for longer run times. It works fine.


 
I was thinking about it too, and I think it would work just fine if I used a 220 volt UPS, the only thing I would have to do is have the neutral wire(s) tied together out side of the UPS.  That is, the two hot legs (black and red) go into the UPS then come out and go into the boiler, the neutral wire just bypassed the UPS and are tied in together.

The circulator I'm 99% sure is 110v but the controls that run is are 220v.  Those crazy Europeans. 

Really, the biggest reason I would like battery backup isn't over heating when the power goes out, I built an array that can take care of that, it's the fact that when the power comes back on you have to manually hit the reset switch to get the Tarm going again.  I had it smolder for the better part of a day once, it ended up making a bit of a mess.

K


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## Trex83 (Sep 26, 2012)

We are using a Compaq UPS 1500VA that outputs 120VAC. We changed the batteries that were dead in the UPS, bought two deep cycle batteries to replace the old ones. We just wired the batteries out of the UPS casing. We have close to 6 hours run time on them, never drained them yet to the ground (120 Ah on C20). We just had to pay for the batteries and the crimps...
The pump and control on the Biomass 60 runs on 120VAC.
Cheers,
Trex83


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## dogwood (Sep 26, 2012)

Trex83, what is the voltage on the deep cell cycle batteries you used?  I was wondering if the UPS stepped up 12v batteries to 120VAC.


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## kopeck (Sep 26, 2012)

dogwood said:


> Trex83, what is the voltage on the deep cell cycle batteries you used? I was wondering if the UPS stepped up 12v batteries to 120VAC.


 
Most UPSs use 6 or 12 volt batteries, most of the time in series (eg 4 6v = 24v).  Once you figure out what the operating voltage is for your UPS you could match it using plain old 6 or 12 volt deep cycles.

The only issue I could see is if you use a tiny UPS that not rated for the amperage your boiler would be pulling but that's just a doing your homework type thing.

K


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## JP11 (Sep 26, 2012)

kopeck said:


> Most UPSs use 6 or 12 volt batteries, most of the time in series (eg 4 6v = 24v). Once you figure out what the operating voltage is for your UPS you could match it using plain old 6 or 12 volt deep cycles.
> 
> The only issue I could see is if you use a tiny UPS that not rated for the amperage your boiler would be pulling but that's just a doing your homework type thing.
> 
> K


I have a smaller UPS that I'm replacing with one from my wife's machine.  So I have an unused 600watt one.  Should I plug the boiler into it?

Now.. before you say.. You're a moron.. that will run it for seconds... THAT'S all i NEED.  I have a auto generator, and power only goes out for 7 or 8 seconds.  My circulator is about 1.76 amps or roughly 300watts or so.  Boiler max watts says 140.

JP


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## kopeck (Sep 26, 2012)

Sure.  Take the model number and look up the specs, it will give you run time.

I would check to see how many watts your setup consumes though, to little juice is worse then to much.

K


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## Trex83 (Sep 26, 2012)

dogwood said:


> Trex83, what is the voltage on the deep cell cycle batteries you used? I was wondering if the UPS stepped up 12v batteries to 120VAC.


The old batteries were 12V 17Ah in series. The UPS needs 24V and is rated for 1500VA (960W power), but as someone said today, every model can have a different battery configuration. Some even have an external battery bank adaptor in addition to the batteries in the UPS.
For the power consumption we used a Kill-A-Watt meter to measure how much power the system draws out and I remember it was more than enough for a medium load of wood when starting the boiler on coals from a previous batch.
Cheers,
Trex83


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## dogwood (Sep 27, 2012)

Thanks kopeck and trex83. Trex, If I understand what you're saying, you now have two 12v deep cycle marine batteries wired in series, and your UPS puts out 120v. I'll try and do the same except I'll probably need a transformer in addition to step up the voltage to 230v like steam man suggests, as that's what my Termovar Loading Unit calls for.

There are a lot of UPS's on ebay that come without batteries you could add the marine deep cycle batteries too . Initial costs are a lot lower and shipping costs would be a lot less without that added weight. Maybe I can get lucky and find one that puts out 230v.

Kopeck, any chance you could post a wiring diagram of your explanation above of how you'd wire up a 220 UPS to take care of the extra leg problem. I'm having a little difficulty picturing your explanation. Thanks. I am attempting to try and not burn up my Loading Unit, whose wiring diagrams are in Danish by the way. But that's another post.

Mike


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## kopeck (Sep 27, 2012)

OK, here's the deal. You only need neutral (the white wire) if you are using 110 volts. That is if you took your volt meter and tested white to either of you hot legs (red or black) you would get 110v. Now when you deal with 220v you don't need neutral, that is take the same meter and touch red and black and you will read 220v. The easiest way to think of it is 110v is relative to ground/neutral where as 240v is the two hot legs voltage relative of each other.

The rub for me is the way my boiler is setup there are some 110v stuff that goes along with the 220v stuff, so I need neutral. So something like this should work:







Sorry if this is crude, It was quick but I think it gets my point across.

All this being said, I'm not an electrician but I like to play one on the weekends.  I don't see why this setup wouldn't work, I'm still going to run it past an electrician friend to make sure!

This is of course using a 220 UPS...

K


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## dogwood (Sep 27, 2012)

Thanks kopeck. I'll look around ebay for a 220 UPS that's reasonable. I'm not getting why the Grundfos 3-speed pump on my Termovar Loading Unit would be using 230v instead of 110, but maybe that's how they do it in Europe.

Mike


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## maple1 (Sep 28, 2012)

When I was ordering my loading unit, I think I had a choice between 110 & 220.

I think.


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## Trex83 (Sep 28, 2012)

Trex83 said:


> The old batteries were 12V 17Ah in series. The UPS needs 24V and is rated for 1500VA (960W power), but as someone said today, every model can have a different battery configuration. Some even have an external battery bank adaptor in addition to the batteries in the UPS.
> For the power consumption we used a Kill-A-Watt meter to measure how much power the system draws out and I remember it was more than enough for a medium load of wood when starting the boiler on coals from a previous batch.
> Cheers,
> Trex83


Picture


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## thecontrolguy (Sep 29, 2012)

stee6043 said:


> I'm using a APC UPS and I believe the model is a 1500 "Smart UPS". It has (2) 12V batteries in it. I've never run the batteries down to see how long I can really get out of it but I'm 100% confident I could get 3 hours min. This would be more than enough time to finish off a load or at least shut things down safely.


 
You could replace the SLA (or VRLA) type batteries inside the UPS with larger batteries, of the exact same type and get extended run time. The only caveat I've found is that the UPS has a limited recharge rate and so the recovery to full charge after a power-out event is longer than with the original batteries. Also, be careful with the external wiring; put a suitable fuse as close to the new batteries as possible to protect the wiring from the first time you drop a wrench or something on them (don't ask).


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## SmokeEater (Sep 30, 2012)

hartkem said:


> My Eko 40 and 500 gallons of pressuirized storage is completed and works as intended. I have been waiting for some lower temps to do a test run and last night it got into the 40s so I decided to go ahead and see if all my work for the last 6 months paid off. The Eko fired up and entered gasification mode without problems. Storage got up to 160 from 65 degrees. Im happy with the results. Now I need to change gears and think about how I am going to protect the boiler in a power failure. My boiler is in an outbuilding. I would need to power the EKO controller and Taco 011 pump long enough to prevent the boiler from overheating. I want to use a pure sine wave UPS to do this. Can I buy one off the shelf to provide enough battery life or will I need to add external batteries? Can you add extra batteries to any UPS easily? I don't know much about UPSs so I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction.


Yes, you can hook up any number of batteries as long as they are connected in parallel and are of the same voltage.  Note that as you add batteries in parallel, you decrease the lines resistance and more current will or can flow in that portion.  Parallel connections keep the voltage constant but add storage to your system.  Connect, with proper size conductor for the load, positive of one to positive of the second and so on.  Same with the negative side.


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## VTHeatGeek (Oct 8, 2012)

Little late on the reply but I just finished installing my Battery backup solution for my Biomass 60.  I have used a Xantrex 600 watt pure sine wave inverter, Xantrex Inline Transfer relay that automatically switches over to the inverter when power goes out.  I used an Exide AGM type battery for the source power.  I keep a trickle charger on this continuously.  This setup runs boiler, circulators, and zone valves.  I have gone through 2 APC UPS units since I originally kept them in the outbuilding with the boiler but have found they have an operating temp or 105 degrees and my building can get over that especially in warmer weather.  I now keep this setup in the basement of the house.


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## dogwood (Oct 10, 2012)

VTHeatGeek , why did you choose an AGM type battery?  Never heard of them before. Apparently there are quite a few type batteries. There are some deep cycle batteries they use on fork lifts that are supposed to have a long life and good surge capacity. Probably pricey too. I suppose I'll have to figure how much power the Grudfos circ needs to startup before making a selection. And what trickle charger are you using? 

Mike


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## VTHeatGeek (Oct 11, 2012)

I used an AGM type which is a deep cycle battery also but does not put off hydrogen gases when charging and since this is in my house basement I want to keep it safe.  I got an Exide RF-31E Roadforce AGM-200 from Amazon.  The price was about the same as a regular deep cycle also.  I have a Grundfos Alpha as my load circ and regular Grundfos on the Boiler and startup is minimal.  I use the Battery Tender trickle charge, probably one of the best brands.  Here is a good little link on battery info.

http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html


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## dogwood (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks for the info on batteries VTHeatGeek. I had no idea batteries put out hydrogen gases. Our batteries and inverter, or UPS, will be right next to our boiler.  Sounds like it might even be dangerous; possibly another Hindenburg disaster in the making.  Nothing I feel like experimenting with anyway. Good thinking about the AGM. Sounds like a good way to go. Do you know if they can be found locally or are they a special order item?  One other thing, any idea how long your Exide TF-31E could power your set-up.

Good link too. Thanks again.

Mike


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## VTHeatGeek (Oct 13, 2012)

If you go with a regular UPS like an APC the batteries in them are sealed AGM type but those units only have an operating temp of about 105 degrees so keep that in mind.  You should be able to find AGM batteries at any local auto store though they may be a special order and they will probably charge you a core charge unless you have an old battery to take back.  Best price I have found was on Amazon and I was able to get free shipping.  They currently are offering a $20 mail in rebate.  I haven't done a full test on run time which I need to do but I am expecting to get 4 - 8 hours of run depending on where I am in the burn cycle, if my storage is hot and no fire in boiler it should last much much longer.  My biggest concern is getting through a full burn cycle so it doesn't overheat.   If I need more run time I can add another battery in parallel.  Also these AGM batteries should last 5 - 10 years if maintained on a trickle charger so your spreading the cost out over time.


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## dogwood (Oct 13, 2012)

Following up on your hydrogen gas info, I found there are ready made vented boxes (battery containers) that you can duct to the outside. They will also protect your battery from accidentally dropping something on them too, or having exposed leads. I looked around ebay for inverters that will put out 230v. and operate off 12v batteries. Seemed to be quite a few coming out of China, which made me a little leery. I need to find out what manufacturers of inverters are reputable. Maybe Xantrex makes a 230 model. If you think you can get 4-8 hours of run time off just one battery that's excellent, and way more than the UPS's I checked out put out. I Iike your setup, VTHeatGeek, and that is what I am going to put in, with the addition of the vented box. Thanks for the advice.

Mike


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## Fi-Q (Oct 13, 2012)

I think the first thing to do while looking for an inverter, especially for a boiler, with pumps and fans (induction motors), the need of a Pure sine wave inverter is a must. It's more expensive, but I think it's the way to go.

     I do not have a boiler yet. But I've been reading and getting educated on basic back-up system with grid-tie in inverter and renewable, I am looking at a minimum of 3000 watts that could feed the basic (Frdige, freezer, Boiler fans, pumps, controllers, camputers, a few lights and tv). As far as water goes, i have a surface well and I am planning on installing a cheap 12v pump (RV style, self priming, pressure control) to have water at home.

   Xantrex is a big company with a lot of inverter possibility , but I"ve heard (Reading through diffrent forums) that with the time there overall quality and costumers service is getting really poor. Xantrex are making some 240 units. I think a lot of the xantrex units are not servicable.

   Sunny Island is a US based company with (I think) manufacturing in the US, seems like a top of the line units with a good servicable product and great costumer service.

    Outback are making some good unit too with a lot of possiblity ( I think you can stack them for more power and 240).

  IT all depend on where you want to go and what you want to do. There is some charger / inverter. A bigger charger good be a great plus in a extended outage if you want to charge de system while the genny is running and beign sure your batteries are top out within a few hour, wich won't happen with a trickle charger.  As far as battery goes, sometime you can get ''used'' batteries for cheap that are still good for a back up system .


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## dogwood (Oct 14, 2012)

Thanks for the recommends on Sunny Island and Outback, Fi-Q. I think I did see those names when I was looking around ebay. I've got a Coleman gasoline generator that  puts out 240v, but I'm sure with a square wave, or at best a modified square wave. Do you know any inverter can convert that 240v square wave directly into a sine wave so the Coleman would be more useful in an extended outage. It would be nice to have one inverter that could do both tasks, work off batteries or the gas generator. Maybe I could just charge the batteries as they are being used with the Coleman, using a bigger charger as you suggest.

We had two extended outages lasting days here, one just a few months ago, so I want the same items you mention up and running, especially the boiler and well. I was afraid the run the well pump with the Coleman last time after reading problem people on this site had with their circ pumps using less than a pure sine wave.

Mike


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## Fi-Q (Oct 14, 2012)

Mike, you coleman may give you some not perfect power, but basic generators are putting out sine waves, may not be pure with some harmonics, but it sure ain't square waves. Get a kill o watt to monitor your power. There is tons of thread here about genrators. And some other forums have tons of generators info ( thinking o travtor by net).


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## dogwood (Oct 15, 2012)

I'd be pleased to find out it does put out a sine wave. I couldn't tell by reading the instructions. They mentioned using some sort of in-line filter for certain electrical devices. I'll call the company and see what they say, or find a kill-o-watt. Thanks for that piece of good news Fi-Q.

Mike


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## McKraut (Jan 3, 2014)

VTHeatGeek said:


> Little late on the reply but I just finished installing my Battery backup solution for my Biomass 60.  I have used a Xantrex 600 watt pure sine wave inverter, Xantrex Inline Transfer relay that automatically switches over to the inverter when power goes out.  I used an Exide AGM type battery for the source power.  I keep a trickle charger on this continuously.  This setup runs boiler, circulators, and zone valves.  I have gone through 2 APC UPS units since I originally kept them in the outbuilding with the boiler but have found they have an operating temp or 105 degrees and my building can get over that especially in warmer weather.  I now keep this setup in the basement of the house.


Why did you choose the Xantrex over the cheaper models? It runs about $160 and others are much cheaper.

Bob


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