# Hot air wood furnaces that meet the new EPA regs...



## brenndatomu (Jan 15, 2017)

I just seen a new one on Menards sale ad today, the Shelter SF2600. There is no info on it at their website or HY-Cs (the parent company that owns the Firechief/Shelter wood furnace co.) But it is definitely a new model http://www.menards.com/main/heating...m?tid=7449745222950322705&bargainStoreId=3258
I talked to Yukon the other day, they are still doing some last minute tweaks to their new "clean burn" models.
So we have a few now that meet the new regs that go into effect this May
1. Kuuma (Vaporfire 100 and 200)
2. Drolet/PSG (SBI) (Drolet with the Heatpack, the Tundra II, and the Heatpro) (PSG with mini-Caddy, Caddy, Max Caddy)
3. USStove (Golden Eagle and the Ashley)
4. Shelter (SF-2600)
Who else am I forgetting?


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## laynes69 (Jan 15, 2017)

Napoleon, and Newmac also have EPA certified models. That shelter looks like there's could be a large heat exchanger above. I figured they wouldn't move in that direction, guess I was wrong.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 15, 2017)

Ahh yes, I forgot about Napolean...I guess they still actually sell a few? And I didn't know Newmac was still in the mix here...good info.
I hafta agree about Shelter/Firechief...I wasn't sure they'd hang on...and Daka, which is still an unknown at this point...


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## maple1 (Jan 15, 2017)

Newmac?

Huh.....


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## brenndatomu (Jan 15, 2017)

maple1 said:


> Newmac?
> 
> Huh.....


Yeah, I dunno. I went to their website and couldn't find a EPA cert. FA furnace...did find some EPA wood stoves though. Also learned that they are owned by US Stove now.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 15, 2017)

I find some Newmac "clean burn" units, but I didn't see anything that said anything about EPA cert.
Now I did find that they have a true variable speed blower available on at least some models...I was just discussing my surprise at the lack of this option on wood and/or coal furnaces with @sloeffle  this afternoon...after doing a true variable speed (not just multi-speed) mod on my Tundra, I can say it is sorely overdue in the FA wood furnace world...it makes for a really* sweet* setup!


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## laynes69 (Jan 15, 2017)

At one time Newmac had a EPA model I'm pretty sure, but maybe that changed with the new regs. Numerous other manufacturers out there need to join the game, or they won't be around much longer. I'd like to see different technology, and as much as I don't want to see things too complex, I wouldn't mind seeing control boards. No matter what they require power to control the blower, so why not a way to control the fire.


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## maple1 (Jan 16, 2017)

I'm within an hour of 3 manufacturers, Newmac being one of them.  I haven't checked any of them out lately, but over my time researching my boiler buy (and for some time after), none of them were showing any signs of going anywhere high-tech or EPA related with their burning designs. I came to the conclusion they were stuck in old tech forever & would get left behind, badly.

I do certainly stand to be corrected if one of them has indeed gotten into EPA/clean burn territory.


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## sloeffle (Jan 16, 2017)

I looked at an Energy King when I was looking for furnaces. I didn't like the way you had to clean the secondary heat exchangers so I went with the Caddy instead. Not sure if it is EPA certified but they claim to be 78% efficient.


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## laynes69 (Jan 16, 2017)

sloeffle said:


> I looked at an Energy King when I was looking for furnaces. I didn't like the way you had to clean the secondary heat exchangers so I went with the Caddy instead. Not sure if it is EPA certified but they claim to be 78% efficient.


I think they tried, but their design couldn't meet the requirements. The Blaze King apex was one that would have met, but they discontinued.


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## 3fordasho (Jan 16, 2017)

even bigger version of the Shelter:
http://www.menards.com/main/heating...?tid=-5619624664132003388&bargainStoreId=3203


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## S.Whiplash (Jan 16, 2017)

A dollar to the first person that can find the EPA list of approved forced-air wood furnaces.  I spent 20 minutes chasing my tail through the EPA website and came up empty.  I suspect Kuuma Vapor Fire might be the only one qualified.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 16, 2017)

S.Whiplash said:


> A dollar to the first person that can find the EPA list of approved forced-air wood furnaces.  I spent 20 minutes chasing my tail through the EPA website and came up empty.  I suspect Kuuma Vapor Fire might be the only one qualified.


I suspect the EPA doesn't have a current list up...which honestly, until May 15th passes, the list will just keep changing, I bet they don't update until after that...


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## JRHAWK9 (Jan 16, 2017)

S.Whiplash said:


> I suspect Kuuma Vapor Fire might be the only one qualified.



Meeting the 2020 stage 2 standard, yes, however stage 1 is nowhere near as strict and this is the one they are commenting on above. Kuuma's VF100 exceeds the 2020 stage 2 standard.  

https://www.epa.gov/residential-woo...y-requirements-wood-fired-forced-air-furnaces


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## BKVP (Jan 16, 2017)

laynes69 said:


> I think they tried, but their design couldn't meet the requirements. The Blaze King apex was one that would have met, but they discontinued.


First, HY-C has really put the $$$ in R & D and they have been at it since the NSPS was starting to be reviewed about 6 years ago.  It does not surprise me one bit.  Second, we discontinued our APEX, which was the standard used by EPA for it review.  It came down to production time versus demand.  We may get back into the mix someday, not just now however.

With the new standards right around the corner, you can see how many manufacturers are working hard to engineer burn cleaner units.  Keep in mind EPA approved for 2020 and beyond is the goal for most of the manufacturers.


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## laynes69 (Jan 16, 2017)

I spoke with Hy-C about the new shelter furnace. It sounds like it could be a heating monster if the rep is right. I guess there's been a handful in use, and they reported a 30 to 45% reduction in wood usage. He said output temperatures in the plenum are higher, and burns between 10 and 14 hours. The firebox size is 4.8 which is very large for a clean burning unit. He said both primary and secondary air is superheated. They are working on a new site, and sometime within 2 weeks will have a manual and breakdown online.


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## laynes69 (Jan 16, 2017)

BKVP said:


> First, HY-C has really put the $$$ in R & D and they have been at it since the NSPS was starting to be reviewed about 6 years ago.  It does not surprise me one bit.  Second, we discontinued our APEX, which was the standard used by EPA for it review.  It came down to production time versus demand.  We may get back into the mix someday, not just now however.
> 
> With the new standards right around the corner, you can see how many manufacturers are working hard to engineer burn cleaner units.  Keep in mind EPA approved for 2020 and beyond is the goal for most of the manufacturers.


 

Yeah, from the sounds of it, they invested some serious money! I guess they have patented the system and are currently working on their 6th or 8th model. I took interest when he said plenum temps were up to 170 degrees! I guess they are using a forced draft for demand, but it closes down and burns clean when demand isn't needed. A 1200 to 1800 cfm blower and a large plenum opening, it sounds like it will heat well.


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## Gonz4373 (Feb 7, 2017)

laynes69 said:


> I spoke with Hy-C about the new shelter furnace. It sounds like it could be a heating monster if the rep is right. I guess there's been a handful in use, and they reported a 30 to 45% reduction in wood usage. He said output temperatures in the plenum are higher, and burns between 10 and 14 hours. The firebox size is 4.8 which is very large for a clean burning unit. He said both primary and secondary air is superheated. They are working on a new site, and sometime within 2 weeks will have a manual and breakdown online.


I hope the new ones are nice i have the biggest indoor one that they did make before the model change and im not sure if im a fan of it yet. First winter running it tho but it just dint seem to operate like i think it should and i have to clean my flu pipe once a week. Maybe i just dont know have to use this new technology lol.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 8, 2017)

Gonz4373 said:


> I hope the new ones are nice i have the biggest indoor one that they did make before the model change and im not sure if im a fan of it yet. First winter running it tho but it just dint seem to operate like i think it should and i have to clean my flu pipe once a week. Maybe i just dont know have to use this new technology lol.


Which model number do you have?


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## laynes69 (Feb 8, 2017)

Gonz4373 said:


> I hope the new ones are nice i have the biggest indoor one that they did make before the model change and im not sure if im a fan of it yet. First winter running it tho but it just dint seem to operate like i think it should and i have to clean my flu pipe once a week. Maybe i just dont know have to use this new technology lol.


That's funny because they (hy-c) told me they didn't have to change much of anything to meet epa standards, that their furnaces already were clean burners. It was the same story with some other manufacturers. When you see these threads, it always tells the other story.


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## blades (Feb 8, 2017)

Gonz4373 said:


> I hope the new ones are nice i have the biggest indoor one that they did make before the model change and im not sure if im a fan of it yet. First winter running it tho but it just dint seem to operate like i think it should and i have to clean my flu pipe once a week. Maybe i just dont know have to use this new technology lol.


 Wet Wood- 98% of the time insufficiently dry fuel is the culprit. Suggestion buy a pallet or 1/2pallet of compressed wood blocks and run those exculsivly for a week and report back on your findings.


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## Gonz4373 (Feb 8, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Which model number do you have?


I have the 2639....heat 3000 to 5000 sq feet


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## brenndatomu (Feb 8, 2017)

Gonz4373 said:


> I have the 2639....heat 3000 to 5000 sq feet


Ahh...OK so that is still one of the old ones...I wasn't sure if you were saying you had one of the new "EPA" models or not.
They take some time to get used to how to burn them and not get a lot of creosote...and like blades said, if you don't have DRY wood, it will always make creosote unless you are constantly burning wide open...which I'm sure doesn't happen.


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## Gonz4373 (Feb 8, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Ahh...OK so that is still one of the old ones...I wasn't sure if you were saying you had one of the new "EPA" models or not.
> They take some time to get used to how to burn them and not get a lot of creosote...and like blades said, if you don't have DRY wood, it will always make creosote unless you are constantly burning wide open...which I'm sure doesn't happen.


Oh no i could burn wide open....it would run us out of the house. Ive been burning wood that is 2 years old, and some standing dead oak and i didnt think it should be that bad. But we also get a lot of temperature spikes and falls here in missouri and i try to turn in down some so i dont turn the house to a souna


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## brenndatomu (Feb 8, 2017)

Gonz4373 said:


> Oh no i could burn wide open....it would run us out of the house. Ive been burning wood that is 2 years old, and some standing dead oak and i didnt think it should be that bad. But we also get a lot of temperature spikes and falls here in missouri and i try to turn in down some so i dont turn the house to a souna


Do you have a moisture meter? You may be surprised at the readings.
If not you can get one for $20 or so on amazon or even lowes.
Bring the wood inside overnight to warm it to room temp, split it, then test the moisture on one of the fresh split faces (not on the end)
Oak is notorious for not giving up moisture readily...my experience with it is the only thing that can be burnt immediately on a standing dead tree is some of the smaller branches up top.
The lower you go, the wetter it gets, the lower part of the trunk will usually need 3 years cut/split/stacked (CSS) to be DRY.
Try the ECO bricks as was suggested, or you could mix in some construction scraps (kiln dried pine 2x4s and the like) with a regular load, see if that helps clean the chimney up for ya.
The other thing is learning to "load for the weather" warmer days = smaller load, colder days = larger load, polar vortex cold = full load (YMMV) The other part of this is when you load. Wait until the house has dropped a few degrees so that if the furnace overshoots the tstat by a couple degrees, its not as big of a deal. Wood heat is cyclical, not linear like with fossil fuels, and you are much better off working with those cycles than against them.
When its real cold you may need to load 3X per day, when its warmer you may get away with 2X, or maybe even 1...this, along with truly dry wood, and varying the size of the loads, will go a long ways toward limiting creosote buildup.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 8, 2017)

Gonz4373 said:


> First winter running it tho but it just dint seem to operate like i think it should and i have to clean my flu pipe once a week


Just to clarify, this is the stove pipe between the furnace and the chimney? If so, and it is the cheap old single wall stuff, going to double wall can help a lot too (it keeps the internal temps up better)


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## lampmfg (Feb 10, 2017)

laynes69 said:


> That's funny because they (hy-c) told me they didn't have to change much of anything to meet epa standards, that their furnaces already were clean burners. It was the same story with some other manufacturers. When you see these threads, it always tells the other story.



I doubt this will be the case for the upcoming  2020 regulation with most manufacturers, though.  That is if there still is an EPA


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 10, 2017)

lampmfg said:


> I doubt this will be the case for the upcoming  2020 regulation with most manufacturers, though.  That is if there still is an EPA



Ooh, that sounds like a pro Trump. Not saying that is good or bad, just to keep politics out of the thread.


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## sloeffle (Feb 12, 2017)

lampmfg said:


> I doubt this will be the case for the upcoming  2020 regulation with most manufacturers, though.  That is if there still is an EPA


IMHO, we ( the public ) should be happy that the EPA is forcing manufacturers to build cleaner burning wood appliances.

Why should I be forced to breath dirtier air when we have the technology at a reasonable price to manufacture appliances that are more efficient and release less CO, CO2, NO, NO2 and SO2 ?


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## lampmfg (Feb 12, 2017)

Believe me, if there is one company that wants the EPA around it's us.  Otherwise, why would we have even gone through this testing process, we will be terribly upset if they don't enforce or change the regulations at all.  However, there will be a lot of happy companies like most that currently claim to burn clean right now.  If they deregulate we probably will quit manufacturing them all together since most people will choose the cheaper so-called clean burning option.


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## John Ackerly (Jun 26, 2017)

The EPA just updated their list of warm air furnaces and there are only 10 units that are certified. We did an analysis of them,

http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2017/05/all-wood-and-pellet-furnaces-must-be.html

Most are pretty basic, with average efficiency less than 60%, and one US Stove model only gets 33% efficiency.  Not sure this class of heater will really survive the 2020 EPA standards, except for ones that use pellets.  If the Europeans made more furnaces, using electronic controls like oxygen sensors, cord wood units may be able to pass.  But in my opinion, this class of heater is still in the backwaters from technology point of view.


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## maple1 (Jun 26, 2017)

I don't see your analysis? Did I miss it?


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## lampmfg (Jun 26, 2017)

John Ackerly said:


> The EPA just updated their list of warm air furnaces and there are only 10 units that are certified. We did an analysis of them,
> 
> http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2017/05/all-wood-and-pellet-furnaces-must-be.html
> 
> Most are pretty basic, with average efficiency less than 60%, and one US Stove model only gets 33% efficiency.  Not sure this class of heater will really survive the 2020 EPA standards, except for ones that use pellets.  If the Europeans made more furnaces, using electronic controls like oxygen sensors, cord wood units may be able to pass.  But in my opinion, this class of heater is still in the backwaters from technology point of view.


John, 
Since the May list was published, the Kuuma Vapor-Fire 100 manufactured by Lamppa Manufacturing in Tower, Minnesota has been certified by the EPA.  The VF100 is a gasification warm-air furnace and it tested at 0.093 pounds/mmBTU.  Thus, it is 10 times cleaner than the current standard and 40% cleaner than the 2020 and beyond standard.  The VF100 is a cord-wood furnace.
Regards,


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## DoubleB (Jun 26, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I don't see your analysis? Did I miss it?



The list, and some results, are at this link: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-04/usepa-certified-forced-air-furnace-list.xlsx

It was buried a few pages deep in Mr. Ackerly's post.


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## maple1 (Jun 27, 2017)

DoubleB said:


> The list, and some results, are at this link: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-04/usepa-certified-forced-air-furnace-list.xlsx
> 
> It was buried a few pages deep in Mr. Ackerly's post.



I saw that later, but didn't realize Mr. Ackerly was with EPA or in on that analyzing.


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## JRHAWK9 (Jun 27, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I saw that later, but didn't realize Mr. Ackerly was with EPA or in on that analyzing.



He doesn't appear to be.

http://www.forgreenheat.org/about/board.html


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## Letsburnwoodnotoil (Jul 13, 2017)

Does anyone ever think about pellet fired furnaces? What are the negatives and positives?


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## brenndatomu (Jul 13, 2017)

Letsburnwoodnotoil said:


> Does anyone ever think about pellet fired furnaces? What are the negatives and positives?


Some people do...just not me...at least not at this point. Firewood for me is "free" ...pellets not so much. Now if I ever get to the point that I can't handle firewood...maybe I'll revisit the issue.


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## S.Whiplash (Jul 13, 2017)

Where is the PSG Caddy line on that list?  I thought from their advertising they qualified under the latest EPA standards.


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## brenndatomu (Jul 14, 2017)

S.Whiplash said:


> Where is the PSG Caddy line on that list?  I thought from their advertising they qualified under the latest EPA standards.


Reread my OP...#2 on the list...


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## Highbeam (Jul 18, 2017)

Letsburnwoodnotoil said:


> Does anyone ever think about pellet fired furnaces? What are the negatives and positives?



YES! In my shop I really could use a more automated wood burner and the pellet furnaces are loved by some folks. Especially on that "other" wood burning site. The brand I would love to have is a Fahrenheit

http://www.fahrenheittech.com/endurance_corn_stove.html

It also burns corn and other fuels. 3000-4000$ which is about the same as a quality pellet stove but much more capable and efficient.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 25, 2017)

I see Englander has updated the 28-3500 furnace to the new EPA certified 28-4000. IIRC, it is basically a NC30 with some mods to be a furnace.
http://www.heatredefined.com/englander/stove/englander-3000-sq-ft-add-on-wood-furnace


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## JRHAWK9 (Aug 26, 2017)

I don't quite understand why these manufacturers are spending the resources to just get phase I certified?  You'd think they'd want to go for the 2020 phase II right away.  Phase II is only a few years removed and they will have to do a complete redesign again if they want to continue to sell.  Phase I certification is just a small step compared to what they will need to do to become phase II compliant.  Just doesn't make much sense to me.  I understand they are probably just trying to buy time, but still.


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## blades (Aug 26, 2017)

Partly you are correct  the other side is market share- warm air wood furnaces and outdoor boilers are not the primary market for wood burning appliances. The parlor stove is the bulk of the market.  
Kuma is in a class by itself a they do not seem to market to the parlor stove types. There use to be a Wisconsin based wood furnace company that had a nice design ( true gasification type) some 10 years back, they did not make any stoves. didn't do much advertising either located mid- northern 1/2 of state. Wish I could remember the name or even what home base was.


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## JRHAWK9 (Aug 26, 2017)

So, do you think the warm air furnace companies who can't make them phase II compliant will just give up on warm air furnaces then?


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## blades (Aug 27, 2017)

depends on how much R&D $ they are willing to invest.  Wood stove isn't much different than furnace on the warm air side of things just adding distribution system to it.  Boilers more complex. Its just stateside they are behind the curve in comparison to European units because they didn't have the  emission  standards to meet.  And then there is the price point, I can install a NG furnace with AC for under 2gs -  Ain't gonna do that with a wood unit currently.  Volume of the market.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 27, 2017)

blades said:


> I can install a NG furnace with AC for under 2gs - Ain't gonna do that with a wood unit currently. Volume of the market.


NG furnace is a throw away item anymore too...


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## BKVP (Aug 28, 2017)

In addition to R&D costs, the next biggest concern is compliance.  The 2015 NSPS, which captured the wood and pellet furnaces, both small and large, resulted in complex network of compliance matters.  

We exited this market segment for this very reason.  If and that is a big "if", EPA were to revisit the standards and compliance matters to reduce financial burden to small manufacturers, we may be interested in the market segment.


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## maple1 (Aug 28, 2017)

BKVP said:


> In addition to R&D costs, the next biggest concern is compliance.  The 2015 NSPS, which captured the wood and pellet furnaces, both small and large, resulted in complex network of compliance matters.
> 
> We exited this market segment for this very reason.  If and that is a big "if", EPA were to revisit the standards and compliance matters to reduce financial burden to small manufacturers, we may be interested in the market segment.



When you say a big concern is 'compliance' - do you mean the cost of getting compliance certifications? 

As opposed to the cost of actually making a unit that complies with the regs, operation/emission wise? 

(I.e., the 'red tape' cost vs. physical 'doing it' cost. Doing it vs. proving it. So to speak...)


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## BKVP (Aug 28, 2017)

maple1 said:


> When you say a big concern is 'compliance' - do you mean the cost of getting compliance certifications?
> 
> These only take time, (costly) valuable administrative time.
> 
> ...



Red Tape, heck yes!  Read the NSPS, all subsections relating to QQQQ.  That is what is meant by Compliance.


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## maple1 (Aug 28, 2017)

I think I will pass on that reading, thanks. 

Just kind of confirms what I have been thinking all along - a company could go out of the business despite being able to actually build a unit that passes the EPA regs, because of the exhorbitant time & expense required to get the little 'official' piece of paper that says it passes. Which is a shame.


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## BKVP (Aug 28, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I think I will pass on that reading, thanks.
> 
> Just kind of confirms what I have been thinking all along - a company could go out of the business despite being able to actually build a unit that passes the EPA regs, because of the exhorbitant time & expense required to get the little 'official' piece of paper that says it passes. Which is a shame.



Yes, you are correct.  The market has to be large enough to support the investment as well.  What happened is EPA views a forced air furnace in some regards as an outdoor hydronic heater.  Now, industry has to deal with the false alignment of what are two distinctly different products and technologies.  A very careful read of QQQQ is in your future!  Put it on the list of things to do this coming holiday season.


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## blades (Sep 2, 2017)

And hence the reason for the mass exodus of stoves in the 90's some of which could put most of current units to shame. I recently sold my home, the day before the closing I was still dealing with regulations compliance wise. Most of which are pure pasture droppings.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 18, 2017)

Interesting article...
https://www.farmingmagazine.com/woodlots/epa-new-source-performance-standards/


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## blades (Sep 19, 2017)

EPA = heavy handed  city slicker bureaucrats.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 19, 2017)

Well I'll be dipped! Just when I thought the HotBlast was a thing of the past...or at least relegated to "burning coal"...nope!
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200680237_200680237


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## brenndatomu (Sep 19, 2017)

And here is a snip from the front of the manual...


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## laynes69 (Sep 19, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Well I'll be dipped! Just when I thought the HotBlast was a thing of the past...or at least relegated to "burning coal"...nope!
> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200680237_200680237


Let me say, I went to a rural king, and the inside of either the ashley or hotblast looks like a tank. The reburn system looks impressive. If you get a chance, either rural king or tractor supply, look at one in person.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 19, 2017)

They have 'em at the Wooster RKO? Or you have a closer RKO now?
I was planning a trip there soon anyways...hafta check it out...


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## laynes69 (Sep 19, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> They have 'em at the Wooster RKO? Or you have a closer RKO now?
> I was planning a trip there soon anyways...hafta check it out...


I went up northwest to Toledo, I believe it was around the Sandusky area. It was more than I expected to see. I haven't been to the Wooster store in a while.  If I recall they had 5 large stainless tubes up top.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 20, 2017)

laynes69 said:


> If I recall they had 5 large stainless tubes up top.


I think that's what the parts diagram showed...firebox looks Caddy-ish
EDIT: 4 tubes on the 1330E, 6 on the 1440E


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## blades (Sep 20, 2017)

Those are very pricy tubes, only one blower- price hike of 600- same jam-a-matic auto overfire door damper and good luck trying to keep the feed door latch system tight. Never got more than 4 hours usable heat out it either. just sayin


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## laynes69 (Sep 20, 2017)

The unit I seen didn't have a door damper, but a damper control on each side. I'm sure it's still the same bad blowers, but the firebox looks a bit different.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 20, 2017)

laynes69 said:


> The unit I seen didn't have a door damper, but a damper control on each side. I'm sure it's still the same bad blowers, but the firebox looks a bit different.


Like this?


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## laynes69 (Sep 20, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Like this?
> View attachment 200374


Yeah, maybe they do have a damper in the door. One thing I noticed with the epa furnaces that were listed, some of the cleaner furnaces had some poor efficiency numbers. The Caddy however was higher than some as far as emissions, but had a higher efficiency rating. The firecheifs seemed low.


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## blades (Sep 20, 2017)

The spin air damper in the cleanout door is gone as is the ability to shake grates if it still has them.  the controls on the side must be for the 2nd  tube air.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 20, 2017)

blades said:


> the controls on the side must be for the 2nd tube air.


It appears you can adjust the primary and secondary air separately, kinda odd...would think EPA would not like that...you could potentially open the primary all the way and close the secondary all the way...wouldn't be too clean that way...kinda like goin old school...


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## Highbeam (Sep 21, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> It appears you can adjust the primary and secondary air separately, kinda odd...would think EPA would not like that...you could potentially open the primary all the way and close the secondary all the way...wouldn't be too clean that way...kinda like goin old school...



Like most every single modern stove, the air controls are probably not allowed to completely close off. These furnaces will be running hot all the time to run clean like a modern noncat stove must.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 21, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Like most every single modern stove, the air controls are probably not allowed to completely close off. These furnaces will be running hot all the time to run clean like a modern noncat stove must.


Right, but even if they don't close 100%...primary full open and secondary closed probably isn't good either...


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## Highbeam (Sep 21, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> Right, but even if they don't close 100%...primary full open and secondary closed probably isn't good either...



It won't be closed. Nothing closes anymore!

Some non-cat stoves have adjustable secondary inlets, it's rare because most folks set it and forget it. The primary air control is far more effective at varying the burn rate.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 21, 2017)

I understand that it doesn't close 100%...ahhh never mind


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## Mrpelletburner (Feb 7, 2018)

So has anyone upgraded to a new stove?


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## woodey (Feb 8, 2018)

Mrpelletburner said:


> So has anyone upgraded to a new stove?


 
I upgraded to a Kuuma VF 100 --- 1 - 1/2  years ago. I am heating a 2700 sq. ft. Civil war era victorian in northern N.Y.- 15 miles from the Canadian border. Been here and burning wood every year since 1984. Well into my second winter with the VF. and  my house has never been this comfortable, and  cutting wood consumption by at least 40%. If you are looking for a easy to use, efficient, safe wood burning furnace with extended burn times(12+ hrs on low) and a company with great  CS. check out the Kuuma Vaporfire. American made with American steel. Works great in conjunction with a propane furnace.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 8, 2018)

woodey said:


> I upgraded to a Kuuma VF 100 --- 1 - 1/2  years ago. I am heating a 2700 sq. ft. Civil war era victorian in northern N.Y.- 15 miles from the Canadian border. Been here and burning wood every year since 1984. Well into my second winter with the VF. and  my house has never been this comfortable, and  cutting wood consumption by at least 1/3. If you are looking for a easy to use, efficient, safe wood burning furnace with extended burn times(12+ hrs on low) and a company with great  CS. check out the Kuuma Vaporfire. American made with American steel. Works great in conjunction with a propane furnace.


Welcome @woodey !
What were you heating with before the Kuuma?


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## woodey (Feb 8, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Welcome @woodey !
> What were you heating with before the Kuuma?


I had a Brookwood wood furnace, basically a large wood stove with plenum and thermostat controlled damper tied into a oil fired furnace.


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## Mrpelletburner (Feb 9, 2018)

Man that kuuma is one nice stove! It’s way outside my budget.

Just ordered the Fire Chief FC1000 to replace a homemade Huntsman with a sheet metal enclosure (old owner of the house was very creative). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brenndatomu (Sep 21, 2019)

Hit our local Rural King store for an oil sale tonight...went by the wood and pellet heaters and saw a new model...a Newmac...I didn't even remember that they were still in the game...but then on the way home I remembered that they were bought by USSC.
Didn't spend too long, but took a quick look in and around it...firebox reminds me a bit of what I recall @Mrpelletburner  posting of one of his HYC Fire Chief  bombs...the thing that caught my eye was the price....$599, and not a sale price either! Heck, I doubt that would even cover @lampmfg  metal COST for a Kuuma! It appears to be set up for a full size supply and return plenum...has a 20" x 20" (?) filter above the blower in the return side.
Snapped some pics for y'all to drool over...  I should have gotten one of the inside of the firebox too, but I don't think everything was in place, and there were a bunch of misc parts and boxes in there so...


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## Mrpelletburner (Sep 21, 2019)

The Fire Bomb part is not helping my sale out!

How are they making any $$?


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## brenndatomu (Sep 21, 2019)

Mrpelletburner said:


> The Fire Bomb part is not helping my sale out!
> 
> How are they making any $$?



Oops 
I think that cat is already out of the bag though...do you still have your YouTube vids posted?
I dunno on the profit...I was thinking the same thing...mfg profit...then pay to ship it to the stores...then the store makes some $ on it...must cost them $150 to make it!   
Half makes me wonder if somebody marked the price wrong...hey maybe I should buy what they have in stock...might be able to make a killing on them in January after the price gets fixed!


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## brenndatomu (Sep 21, 2019)

OK, never mind...I see what's going on here...this is not a new model...and its not 2020 certified...I bet they are blowing these things out to dump them before they can't sell them anymore.
Search Newmac...WFA 70 will come up...



			Woodstove Database | Burnwise | US EPA


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