# Wood pellets...pellet size matters



## ChrisWNY (Feb 13, 2012)

So I've been burning pellets for over a year now in my Fahrenheit Endurance 50 furnace (sorry, haven't posted in here in awhile, been real busy), and over that year I wanted to share an observation of mine that may be redundant information that most everyone already knows (I apologize if this is the case). I searched the forum a few times and couldn't find too many topics dedicated to wood pellet length (other than long pellets causing augers to jam up), so I thought I'd post my own thoughts on the subject here and find out what others think about the conclusions that I am drawing here on pellet size (length)...

By "short" length pellets, I'm referring to bags that contain pellets that are on average shorter than 1" long (avg. seems to be 1/2"). Long pellets generally consist of pellets that avg. 1" or longer in length in a bag/batch. 

* Longer pellets produce less heat than shorter pellets - I'm no combustion expert, but the reason for this likely relates to surface area and how the auger moves pellets to the burn pot. Smaller pellets provide more surface area exposed for burning, therefore they seem to burn with more intensity than longer pellets, hence producing more heat in a shorter time span.

* Longer pellets feed more slowly than shorter pellets - at the same burn level (my furnace has levels 1-5, with the "levels" generally referring to lbs/hr burned), longer pellets seem to feed more slowly than shorter length pellets. It seems that I'm refilling the hopper more frequently when my hopper is loaded with short-length pellets. This is another reason why shorter pellets likely produce more heat than longer pellets, they are feeding more quickly at the same burn level (more slip into the burn pot when the auger turns). One thing remains consistent however, longer pellets result in a cooler burn.

* Longer pellets produce different ash characteristics - ash from short-length pellets (at least in my Fahrenheit unit) is almost as white as snow. Longer-length pellets produce darker colored ash. However, ash characteristics still vary widely based on pellet manufacturer and batch. I've had hot-burning batches produce darker ash while cooler burning batches produce a gray/white ash. 

Now, this may just be a characteristic (aka feature) of my particular Fahrenheit furnace, but I definitely seek out wood pellets that are shorter in length as they consistently seem to produce more heat than pellets that avg. 1" or larger in size in a bag or batch, but at the cost of more being consumed per hour to achieve that additional heat output.  In fact, I've found that longer length pellets produce roughly the same amount of heat on level 4 that short length pellets produce at level 2. If I crank my furnace to Level 4 while burning shorter-length pellets, my entire 2500 sq. ft. home roasts (downstairs climbs to 78Â°F+). My observations of pellet length spans at least 6 or 7 differing pellet brands (AWF, Wood Fibers Inc., Fireside Ultra, Stove Chow, Lignetics, Pennington, just to name some that I've burned, at least 10-15 bags or more).

It may seem that the hotter burn characteristics of shorter pellets boils down to shorter pellets seemingly feeding at a faster rate. However, on really cold days, I've noticed that my furnace produces much more heat when burning "short" pellets at a lower burn level, allowing me to lower that burn rate, ultimately using less pellets in a day than I would use burning longer-length pellets at twice the feed rate. I also thought I read somewhere that pellet grades (i.e. premium , etc.) are supposed to include length specification. Perhaps this observation of mine is old news...


----------



## tjnamtiw (Feb 13, 2012)

You've observed one of the most overlooked variables in running a pellet stove.  So many people here think that a pellet is a pellet is a pellet.  They fail to realize how pellet length affects the burn and heat output of their stove.  They will look at a hundred other things to blame when, in fact, the first thing they should do is adjust their stove to suit the pellet they are burning.  With Quads and others, it is the flame height on HIGH heat setting.  
I think that shorter pellets allow more mass to be conveyed  while long pellets hog space in the auger and can't be packed as densely.  This then requires an increase in feed rate be it opening the feed adjusting plate or whatever means is available for your stove.
Don't know about the color of the ash being related to pellet length though.  I would think it has more to do with what the pellet is made of.


----------



## ChrisWNY (Feb 13, 2012)

Agree 100%, tj. I think a lot of woes would be solved if people adjusted feed rates on their stoves based on the avg. length of pellets they are burning. If you're dealing with long-length pellets, crank that feed rate up a notch or two and heat output improves while overall consumption likely stays nearly the same as it did when burning shorter pellets at a lower feed rate. You're probably right about ash color, it's probably related to the composition of the pellet itself, and which woods were used. Pellets producing light gray/white ash however seem to burn a little hotter (generally speaking) than pellets that produce a darker colored ash, but that's not always the case in my past experience.


----------



## aaronnoel (Feb 13, 2012)

Agree as well, short pellets burn the hottest, my North American pellets are very short and burn real hot, I have found that they also burn faster and I wonder if that a product of real shot pellets as well. Most of N.A's pellets are under 1/2 inch in length.


----------



## HD41 (Feb 13, 2012)

I have also noticed smaller feed faster and produce more heat. I had time on my hands and pondered this subject and sampled some pellets.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/89893/


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

The fella down at the boxstore told me all these here pellets are the same and even bagged at the same place even. Gollie gee who'da thunk we see a difference in them there wood pellet thingies?

Wonder iffin the bulk density matters?

:cheese: running for cover! :lol :cheese:


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 13, 2012)

Anyone out there still think that pellet stoves feed by weight?


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Anyone out there still think that pellet stoves feed by weight?



Well heck ya! Says so right in that there manual thingie I be reading. Also say I musta clean this here stove. Why'd ya need to do that?  :gulp:


----------



## Czech (Feb 13, 2012)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> The fella down at the boxstore told me all these here pellets are the same and even bagged at the same place even. Gollie gee who'da thunk we see a difference in them there wood pellet thingies?
> 
> Wonder iffin the bulk density matters?
> 
> :cheese: running for cover! :lol :cheese:



I use that ignorance to my benefit. The guys in the yard don't know the difference between the more expensive and better softwoods from the junk lot of ash whatever pellets. I know what I have them load in my truck!


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

Czech said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you ever hear this one?



> But sir, There isn't a difference in them, Just let me get the easy one off the top!



;-)


----------



## pete324rocket (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you for addressing this topic and putting your conclusions all together in one post. 
My observations: My longtime source for pellets started chopping their pellets about half of what the length used to be and it was mentioned to me by the delivery man and the information just blew by me. I now find that the stove is consuming a bag of pellets faster than any brand ever before. I also notice a rise in temperature at the lowest setting. My only conclusion in my mind is that more pellets are being fed thru the auger (because they are choped finer) and as a result is the rise in temperature. The pellet bags also seem "less full" even though the weight is the same , so it seems more compressed pellet material is occupying a smaller volume, and that is not to hard to comprehend. For the dealer, it could "appear" that the pellets have more heat and are "hotter", and I can't say I 'd blame any manufacturer for being smart like that(to encourage brand favoritism) but I'd have to say that I bet not very many people are aware of it.


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

pete324rocket said:
			
		

> Thank you for addressing this topic and putting your conclusions all together in one post.
> My observations: My longtime source for pellets started chopping their pellets about half of what the length used to be and it was mentioned to me by the delivery man and the information just blew by me. I now find that the stove is consuming a bag of pellets faster than any brand ever before. I also notice a rise in temperature at the lowest setting. My only conclusion in my mind is that more pellets are being fed thru the auger (because they are choped finer) and as a result is the rise in temperature. The pellet bags also seem "less full" even though the weight is the same , so it seems more compressed pellet material is occupying a smaller volume, and that is not to hard to comprehend. For the dealer, it could "appear" that the pellets have more heat and are "hotter", and I can't say I 'd blame any manufacturer for being smart like that(to encourage brand favoritism) but I'd have to say that I bet not very many people are aware of it.



If your stove has a thermostat? It will only run until the temp satifies the stat. Its the pellet size/density equalizer. Or save them pupies for the cold season and find some longer/less dense stuff for the shoulders. Look for puffy full looking bags while pellet hunting! Skinny bags are the first key while looking for the stuff that should crank some decent heat! You'll also get more of the skinny bags into the hopper.

Some of the newer stoves have feed trim adjustments to compensate. Quad has a fuel gate in the hopper which works to reduce feed of the fuel to the pot. Think there are a copuple more, But I have CRS bad on Mondays!


----------



## gymrat0663 (Feb 13, 2012)

Great info for us newbies!

Thanks for posting this!


----------



## Snowy Rivers (Feb 13, 2012)

Let me add this little tid bit that confirms your theory.

I burn hazelnut shells in my two whitfields.

This stuff is more granular in consistency, with the largest pieces about the size of your little fingernail and the smallest pieces  maybe 1/8th inch chips.

The auger feeds this stuff at a far different amount than it would pellets.
The average delivery per auger cycle is probably a teaspoon full each cycle.

I rarely run the stoves past the number one setting.

The BTU per pound is similar to most premium wood pellets.

The heat output is far higher than the same setting using most pellets.

Reason being, the material can burn faster and hotter than the larger pieces.

Think of it as comparing a "Kindling fire" to a large log slowy glowing away and the firebox.

Just some thoughts.

snowy


----------



## ChrisWNY (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks, glad this post is of some value to new pellet burners. I know I didn't realize pellet length was a factor when I first had my Fahrenheit pellet furnace installed over a year ago. During that time I was busy trying out different pellets from different manufacturers to find out which burned best/hottest/cleanest, and there are plenty of threads on this forum that compare pellet brands that help others to decide on which brand to buy. What I found was that out of the various pellets I bought last year, the ones that burned the hottest were the shortest. My furnace seems to have a high burn efficiency, no matter what type of pellet I feed it, it burns with very little ash left behind. 

I can go 2-3 weeks burning at least a bag a day without dumping out my ash pan (the Fahrenheit's ash pan is huge but it's still amazing how little ash is produced from an entire 40 lb. bag of pellets. I'd estimate less than 4 oz. of ash per bag on avg). It didn't make too much difference of what brand of pellets I bought, they all seemed to produce about the same amount of ash, the only big difference I noticed was the heat output when burning shorter pellets. I've noticed some pellet manufacturers seem to be "dicing" up their pellets more so than they did a year ago. This year I bought 1 ton of AWF pellets before the season started (mid Fall), the pellets were medium length, on average 1/2-1" long. Just yesterday I bought 15 bags of AWF, the pellets were all diced up, very few being longer than 1/4". Dumped a bag in there yesterday, they're burning hotter than hell. Pellets seem to be exact same color and of the same materials of the older (last year's) batches, length seems to make all the difference.


----------



## tjnamtiw (Feb 13, 2012)

HD41 said:
			
		

> I have also noticed smaller feed faster and produce more heat. I had time on my hands and pondered this subject and sampled some pellets.
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/89893/



That was my point.  If they feed faster, you are putting more lbs/hour into your stove and therefore getting more heat.  It's a simple law of physics.  That's again why you must adjust your stove to get the correct feed rate (lbs/hour) as prescribed for your stove.  If you don't do that, you stand the chance of overfiring your stove, which could result in warping, cracking, or otherwise destroying your stove.


----------



## tjnamtiw (Feb 13, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Anyone out there still think that pellet stoves feed by weight?



From reading many of the posts and seeing some of the pictures of warped, cracked stoves, yes I do, Smokey.


----------



## IHATEPROPANE (Feb 13, 2012)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> pete324rocket said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup right on about the t-stat...I learned about the feed being about pellet size and density soon after I got my stove.....I was experimenting with a bunch of brands and the temp was within the ball park for all of them on the infrared.  I then got to Currans blend....they were coming up 50 degrees hotter....I couldn't believe it.....then I noticed the bag lasted half as long....disappointed indeed....this year got the stat to even things out


----------



## HD41 (Feb 13, 2012)

Early on I did heat output temperature comparisons on several single bags of different pellets (including an unnamed frequently bashed brand) and found significant differences in heat output on the same setting. I noticed size and feed differences but left the more detailed analysis to other members.

I have settled on Somerset and Lignetics that perform well and have always been available and reasonably priced. I had to lower my feed rates to compensate. The only other pellets I burned in quantity were AMF American Wood Fibers, they produced less heat but this may have been because of size. Never had an auger jam or burning problems.

Pellet reviews are helpful but are often mixed, If some brag, some bash and others say the same pellets are shoulder season they are probably ok if the price is right. I might want to try a single bag in my stove first.


----------



## Easternshore Bob (Feb 13, 2012)

My Mini loves short pellets!!


----------



## ironpony (Feb 13, 2012)

And remember boys and girls if you had a HarmAn stove
none of this would matter
as HarmAns are regulated by exhaust gas temp
so ALL pellets put out the same heat


runs and hides under pellet stash


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

ironpony said:
			
		

> And remember boys and girls if you had a HarmAn stove
> none of this would matter
> as HarmAns are regulated by exhaust gas temp
> so ALL pellets put out the same heat
> ...



Maybe thats why they say their all the same? They musta been usin a Harmon(I know its spelled Harman-just bustin ironpony)! ;-)


----------



## ironpony (Feb 13, 2012)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> ironpony said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







you good sir, have now opened the flood gates of spelling correctors

let the posting begin


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~IronPony~~~~~~~~~~~~~
^^^^^^^^^^^Back at this fella^^^^^^^^^^

 %-P  ;-P    :coolgrin:


----------



## tjnamtiw (Feb 13, 2012)

IHATEPROPANE said:
			
		

> Yup right on about the t-stat...I learned about the feed being about pellet size and density soon after I got my stove.....I was experimenting with a bunch of brands and the temp was within the ball park for all of them on the infrared.  I then got to Currans blend....they were coming up 50 degrees hotter....I couldn't believe it.....then I noticed the bag lasted half as long....disappointed indeed....this year got the stat to even things out



Why would you be disappointed about a bag lasting half as long when you were getting twice as many btu's per hour?  

Also, yes the thermostat turns the stove off or down but if you are over-firing when it's running,...........................  OMG, enough is enough.  Hot pellets, cold pellets, shoulder season pellets!  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.   :zip:  :snake:


----------



## md2002 (Feb 13, 2012)

Very interesting post... I just bought a ton of LeCrete pellets and they seem to burn good, with allot of heat and not much clean up. The glass stays crystal clear for at least 4-7 hours of burning. I didn't notice the pellet size in the test bags I bought. I now have a ton and notice that there are some big pellets in these bags. Some pellets are an inch to 2 inches long. So far I haven't had any issues (since Friday) but I was asking myself if these long pellets are going to cause an issue with the auger. This is a good read. I assumed the pellet size has allot to do with how your stove reacts.

I also find this article interesting because I was going to go with the Oakies ( which are very small pellets) the dealer had me try the LeCretes because he said they are bigger pellets and therefor will last longer and put out more heat. The LeCretes put out a little more heat than the Oakies so I went with LeCretes... reading over this article maybe the smaller Oakies were the way to go. They were both the same money to buy.


----------



## HD41 (Feb 13, 2012)

Md2002 said:
			
		

> Very interesting post... I just bought a ton of LeCrete pellets and they seem to burn good, with allot of heat and not much clean up. The glass stays crystal clear for at least 4-7 hours of burning. .



I think "clean burn" is the key to good pellets, as has been said adjustments may be necessary from one pellet brand to another. I see no particular problem with longer pellets so long as they burn clean, feed ok even if you hear an occasional crunch. Pretty difficult to determine BTU's received per lbs over time.


----------



## countk (Feb 13, 2012)

Md2002 said:
			
		

> Very interesting post... I just bought a ton of LeCrete pellets and they seem to burn good, with allot of heat and not much clean up. The glass stays crystal clear for at least 4-7 hours of burning. I didn't notice the pellet size in the test bags I bought. I now have a ton and notice that there are some big pellets in these bags. Some pellets are an inch to 2 inches long. So far I haven't had any issues (since Friday) but I was asking myself if these long pellets are going to cause an issue with the auger. This is a good read. I assumed the pellet size has allot to do with how your stove reacts.
> 
> I also find this article interesting because I was going to go with the Oakies ( which are very small pellets) the dealer had me try the LeCretes because he said they are bigger pellets and therefor will last longer and put out more heat. The LeCretes put out a little more heat than the Oakies so I went with LeCretes... reading over this article maybe the smaller Oakies were the way to go. They were both the same money to buy.



Your last two sentences are a liitle confusing. The way I read it is that the LeCretes would be better, am I missing something? If they were better, it would refute most of what has been written on this thread. 

The funny  thing is I was just thinking about this issue yesterday, before reading this thread. I would concur that the author is spot on. I have a combination of Green Team (Very long pellets) and Okanangans. As yesterday was very cold, I broke out the Okanagans for the 1st time this winter, as I have less of them. After burning them for the better part of the day, I noticed a lot higher output on a similar setting then when I was burning the Green Team. I also noticed they burnt much faster.

In conclusion, I have been happy with Green Teams, especially this winter as it has been pretty mild, but if we get a cold snap, I will break out the Oakies. I could use that overused term for the Green Team pellet (shoulder), but I think it is a little better than that, especially for what they cost me last summer!


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

tjnamtiw said:
			
		

> IHATEPROPANE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When the stove turns off it does just shut right down. It goes through a cooldown cycle. Unlike your overfire safety which will kill the power to the whole unit. One reason I stress proper stove sizing. Overfiring in my book is a big no-no!

Use your fuel gate to adjust for the small pellets in your quad. Its what its there for.

Just like you sig! â€œIf it ainâ€™t broke, fix it until it isâ€ that ought to work! ;-)


----------



## md2002 (Feb 13, 2012)

countk said:
			
		

> Md2002 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I found the LeCretes to be a bit hotter and cleaner than the Oakies. So, yes they are better in my opinion. It has only been 4 days though, reading this thread it just makes me wonder if I made the right choice with the longer pellets rather than the smaller pellets. So far so good with the longer pelltes but only time will tell.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 13, 2012)

In addition to length there is also density which is somewhat related.

Consider two pellets each coming in 1/4" spheres pellet A weighs in at 1 ounce and pellet B weighs in at 1.10 ounces both are made of the same fiber.   

Which one will produce the most heat?


----------



## md2002 (Feb 13, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> In addition to length there is also density which is somewhat related.
> 
> Consider two pellets each coming in 1/4" spheres pellet A weighs in at 1 ounce and pellet B weighs in at 1.10 ounces both are made of the same fiber.
> 
> Which one will produce the most heat?



Pellet B?


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

Md2002 said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There should be no question mark after the B!

Pellet B is the same size and weights more. So yes!, It will feed more to the fire. More fuel=More BTU's.


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> In addition to length there is also density which is somewhat related.
> 
> Consider two pellets each coming in 1/4" spheres pellet A weighs in at 1 ounce and pellet B weighs in at 1.10 ounces both are made of the same fiber.
> 
> Which one will produce the most heat?



While were at it, Think we ought to mention fiber quality? ;-)

Does the quality of the fiber these pellets are made from make any difference in what they produce in BTU's?


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 13, 2012)

Welcome back Chris... Glad to.see your trying different brands. Sounds like your not using a stat on that furnace? If there is.one thing I can suggest, its to spend $25 on a cheap programmable stat. 

Other thing, are you running it 24/7 yet? Last Winter you were an evening burner. Which doesnt allow the unit to auto clean while running (takes 9 hrs in between cleanings on Premium pellet) Large ash reduction if its shut down nightly. Doesnt allow the pot to build up or accumulate any ash....

What are you favorite brands? Somersets by me are by far the shortest and hottest pellet around. Short pellets = more volume,  more volume = more heat.  There are a few others that I have burned in it. Most of those created the same temps.

On level 3 (stat calling for heat)  I get about 140Â°-145Â° measured 10" above the top of the furnace (probe stuck into plenum. With Somersets its about 150Â°-155Â°â€¦ The difference in heat output for the same pellets in my Quad is a much larger margin. Which may say something about the Fahrenheits efficiency. It does extract a lot of heat. My vent on it is much cooler than the vent on my Quad or Englander. 
Just started to really measure and monitor temps. Since I replaced the Combustion blower and put in 2 new updates that Fahrenheit has came out with, since my stove was made. A new Sail Switch (flapper right after the air intake) it opens from the side, instead of hinged from the top (more airflow) and a new exhaust manifold (higher flow unit). Dont know if your stove has these updates. But I can give you the # to Fahrenheit and if you talk to Matt Fitts (Senior Tech) he will tell you based on serial #. Or I can.post a pic of the.manifold when I get home. . The sail switch you can just look into the intake (remove OAK) and you will see if its flappin up and sown (stove running), if its not running, then stick a small screwdriver in, and if its hinged on the.side its new. If the hinges are on top, its the old one. These 2 updates really brought my furnace to Life...    

This last week has been pretty cold. I thought I might have to change the program for the stat (from 3 to 4) but have yet to do it. During the day it pretty much idles on level 1 (maintenance / pilot burn) if the temps are near 30Â°â€¦ If its warmer than 35Â°-40Â° we have to shut it down. Because it creates to much heat, even stick in a pilot burn (blower still has to come on every 10-15 minutes) and God Forbid it goes into a Pot Change!! The house becomes an oven!! ;-P.  Mind you I do have a wood stove downstairs alsi (added this season too). Which I keep running most of the time. 

But I am leaving work now.. its been purring along all day. Its 33Â° outside right now. So we shall see how hot it is in a bit.....

Glad to see you back around. There are a few more furnace owners now (some SCF-050's, Revolution's, and of course the Big Hormone (Harman) crowd ) :lol:

Hoping you've been burning more, to keep the LP man at Bay. 2.5 yrs since my last fill and still have 40%-45% left. Cant say enough about pellets.


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 13, 2012)

DexterDay said:
			
		

> . There are a few more furnace owners now (some SCF-050's, Revolution's, and of course the Big* Hormone *(Harman) crowd ) :lol:



ironpony is gonna get you for that! :lol:


----------



## ChrisWNY (Feb 13, 2012)

DexterDay said:
			
		

> Welcome back Chris... Glad to.see your trying different brands. Sounds like your not using a stat on that furnace? If there is.one thing I can suggest, its to spend $25 on a cheap programmable stat.
> 
> Other thing, are you running it 24/7 yet? Last Winter you were an evening burner. Which doesnt allow the unit to auto clean while running (takes 9 hrs in between cleanings on Premium pellet) Large ash reduction if its shut down nightly. Doesnt allow the pot to build up or accumulate any ash....
> 
> ...



I'll contact Fahrenheit about those updates, will have to check and see if they apply to my model/SN. I generally speak with Mark Graham, he's a real good guy and also one of their senior product engineers. I know I have the newer "flapper" that is hinged on the side, but I've never had to adjust it.

Favorite pellets so far are the AWF. They're supposedly made of hardwood, but as others have referred to in past posts, they seem to be the most dense and they're short with an avg. length of 1/4-1/3". They burn hot and clean and leave a white/light gray ash behind that is super easy to clean and vacuum. When I ran the leaf blower at the end of last season, as well as running a brush through my 4" PL vent, hardly any ash came out. That may be due to how I burn. I know running the furnace at a lower setting for longer durations of time will produce more ash and soot in the long run.

I'm still an "evening" burner for the most part, which is one of the reasons I haven't installed a stat on the furnace. I have however run the furnace beyond 9 hours (sometimes it seems to clean every 4 hours), and overnight quite a few times especially on weekends. When I return home from work, I head down into the basement, run the vacuum, brush out the entire burn chamber, and every couple of weeks I remove the baffles and vacuum/brush the exchanger thoroughly. Every month I pull the burn pot out to vacuum up all that ash I can't get to, and scrub the burn pot clean in hot water with dish detergent. Comes out shiny every time. I start the unit at Level 3 or 4 (depending on how cold it is), then reduce it to 2 or 3 once it has been going for an hour or two. I've made the mistake of leaving the unit on Level 4 which absolutely roasts my entire 1st floor. 

We've cut our LP costs by nearly $2000 annually. If we were heating the house to the same temperature on LP, we'd be running an even higher tab, so it's tough to quantify the total savings. We never heated the house to 75Â°F when we were on LP! We would heat to 62Â°F most of the time unless we were having guests, then we'd bump up to 66Â°F. With the Fahrenheit, the indoor temp soars above 74Â°F, and I can't stand an indoor temp above 75Â°F so I shut the unit down or turn the feed rate down to Level 2 when it gets too hot upstairs. If I burn overnight I'll leave the furnace at Level 2 which allows the blower to cycle on and off, and it maintains a nice temp of 71Â°F downstairs and 65Â°F throughout most of the upstairs (except bathrooms which we keep closed). 

Glad to see you kept your Fahrenheit, installed some upgrades, and are putting it to good use. It's a great unit and I've been extremely happy with it.


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 13, 2012)

Nice... Glad to hear the savings and happiness it still brings you. Mark Graham (owner/engineer) is the one who referred me to Matt. 

The flapper I am talking about is not the damper thats adjustable. Its a plate inside the inlet. You need a flashlight to look inside the inlet (must remove OAK from inlet 1st) then using a somewhat long.screwdriver (over 5") look inside and push the flapper in. Hinged on top is old. Hinged on side is New. This Sail Switch is designed to stop the reversal of air and/or smoke in the event of a power failure and also doesn't allow air to infiltrate the stove when off (at least from the inlet side). Not adjustable by any means. But the new one has much better flow #'s, along with the manifold.


Definitely glad I kept it. I was contemplating selling it for a few months..... Love it....

See ya.....


----------



## tjnamtiw (Feb 14, 2012)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> Use your fuel gate to adjust for the small pellets in your quad. Its what its there for.



That's exactly what I do and have been preaching, J.  People just ass-u-me that one pellet brand is 'hotter' than another because the pellet length is shorter and they get more lbs/hr into the burn pot and then fail to readjust their stove for the new input.  Yes, some brands (Harman) supposedly do it automatically but with quads it takes readjusting the gate.  Not readjusting is a possibility as long as they don't hit the high temp limit but how close, really, do you want to be running your stove to that limit?  That's the question.  Look at the post about the US Stove 2400 on here now!


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 14, 2012)

Here is a pic of the two manifold side by side.

The angle starts sooner. But the easist way to tell if the new one is on, is to see if there are 3 bolts holding it on or 4 bolts. 

The old one you see all for nuts. The new one has a hole for the 4th , but its actually inside of the manifolf and only 3 can be tightened (or seen).

Old manifold is on the left. New one is one the right (bigger throat).

The sail switch I never took pics of. But I can snap a pic of the old one and show you what I mean about where it hinges from. 

Later Chris......


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 14, 2012)

tjnamtiw said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm surprised at the number of stoves that have no means of adjusting the fuel curve. Some are just one set heat range and no means to adjust the draft air. Then you have the ones that only have draft/damper adjustment and no feed trim. Having both is good, But feed trim should be your best means of adjustment to equalize the density.

I got spoiled with my Omega. Having a means to tweak both fuel and draft/damper air. I can pretty much adjust/tweak for white hot burns. Except pellet testing where all brands are at a set feed/trim rate. Draft/damper air is all I play with due to being a fair timed test. If I play with feed/trim I ruin the time/length of burn.


----------



## ChrisWNY (Feb 14, 2012)

DexterDay said:
			
		

> Here is a pic of the two manifold side by side.
> 
> The angle starts sooner. But the easist way to tell if the new one is on, is to see if there are 3 bolts holding it on or 4 bolts.
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting the photos, Dexter. Appreciated all the info. I spoke with Mark at Fahrenheit this morning and the updates don't apply to my 50F model. I have the single square exhaust port behind the ash pan, so my model falls into the "newest" category meaning that it already has Fahrenheit's latest and greatest heat exchanger system. 

Here was Mark's response:



> If you have the single square exhaust port behind the ashpan you have the latest designed heat exchanger that has even better air flow than the old style with the new manifold  (I believe you do).  It also has the new intake design.  We have no updates to this style heat exchanger since it has been doing very well for us.


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 14, 2012)

Figured. Since you bought yours last year. Mine was over a year old at that point. 

Just passing along info. Just in case.


----------



## ChrisWNY (Feb 14, 2012)

I remember reading somewhere that Fahrenheit also updated the burn pot some time in the last 2-3 years due to warping issues. I'm guessing your model is probably new enough where you already have the latest burn pot installed. If it ever becomes a factor however, Fahrenheit swaps them out free of charge from my understanding. 

What pellets have done the best for you in your furnace? Are the Somersets the hands-down winner in your case? I think my local Lowes sells them so I'll have to give them a try one of these days.


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 14, 2012)

ChrisWNY said:
			
		

> I remember reading somewhere that Fahrenheit also updated the burn pot some time in the last 2-3 years due to warping issues. I'm guessing your model is probably new enough where you already have the latest burn pot installed. If it ever becomes a factor however, Fahrenheit swaps them out free of charge from my understanding.
> 
> What pellets have done the best for you in your furnace? Are the Somersets the hands-down winner in your case? I think my local Lowes sells them so I'll have to give them a try one of these days.



Yes. Somersets. Are hands down the best for heat and ash. Next up are a shoot-out between Pro Pellets, Lignetics Green Labels, Lignetics Presto-Logs, and Greene Gold (Greene Team).  Those all do pretty well. Some ashier than others, but heat wise about the same. 

Rhe burn pot was given to me with the furnace (newest edition) along with 2 older models, the 1st generation 2 piece and the solid one piece. The one I have now is a 2 piece, thats got a small flat spot at the bottom of both halfs (latest design), I also got the newest board revision this Summer. The newest version is 1.2 and got rid of the 600 CFM option on the Blower. The last board was the same.digital board, but you could choose between 600 and 800 CFM (600 would give higher temps because of slower air through exchanger, also more ideal of it was a freestanding unit with the diffuser / less noise). 

So as far as all the updated parts, it has them all now. All excpet the new exchanger. But compared to the other 2 units I have seen run. Mine by far has a better burn. The one, has yet to be cleaned since last year. The amount of ash inside the furnace is amazing. He empties the ash pan once a week and gives the exchanger rod a couple pulls. But thats it. Still fires every time.

Ive cleaned mine once so far. About 3 weeks ago when I put all the new parts in. But other than that, Im gonna stay on at least a bi-weekly schedule. Empty the ash pan once a week and pull the cleaning rod back and forth every day. But cleaning the firebox, isnt needed that often. The temps in this dont drop out like my Quadrafire upstairs (only cleaned it once this year too). 

Have ran about 75 bags total. So each has only seen maybe 30-40 bags. Its about that even as to the bag count for each. Going 15-20 bags between cleanings isnt bad. This Winter has been so Mild, that not one week have I been on a bag a day schedule. In past years, it was about 2 bags a day (14 bags between my Weekly cleanings). Now it takes almost 2-3 weeks to burn the same amount (also using a woodstove). So its not like Im really neglecting the stoves. There being cleaned at the same bag intervals. Just not time intervals.

All in all... I think the Fahrenheit could easily burn 2-3 ton without doing anything. Letting it run constantly (empty ash pan only). The Previous owner of my stove only vacuumed the firebox and ran something like 5-6 ton through it. It was "plugged" to say the least. But safely, I feel it can go awhile without.

Matt at Fahrenheit said they have ran them through the ringer. Running them without emptying the ash pan at all, untill the ash stopped the auto clean cycle because the front flapper door couldnt open. He said it still wanted to run 

Im still impressed with mine though. Im only using half the.ducts in my home. So the air coming through the registers is still as much as my Regular LP furnace (half the ducts with half the blower size). But it still does a great job of heating the whole house because of the layout and how the retuen air flows through the rooms without registers.

Long post again. Nice talkin to ya though....


----------



## ironpony (Feb 14, 2012)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> DexterDay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nah, Dex is a fellow Buckeye
we are all "nuts"


----------



## DexterDay (Feb 14, 2012)

ironpony said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice....  Im gonna be a BIG PIG one day like you. ;-P (10 ton aint enough) Im hoping to get at least a ton of Northern Lights this weekend. 

Kinda like my Idol....  :lol:  I just dont talk about you as much as OMV. ;-P

I would love to know of your contact info for Somersets. I have tried 2 different emails. Did you haul them yourself (Have your own rig)? If you would share? If not, I completely understand.


----------



## stellep (Feb 15, 2012)

Most folks here agree that smaller pellets produce more heat because more pellets get moved by the auger into the firepot.  This theory seems to be common sense and I want to believe it.  But the reality to me in my old Whitfield is entirely the opposite.  When I run tiny pellets,  the auger cycles and cycles and few pellets drop into the burnpot.  I have to crank the pellet feed to keep the fire going.  "Normal" pellets, 1/2, 3/4, 1 inch no problem.  Some of them depending on quality, I can crank the feed way down and still get plenty of fire.  I guess for me,  1 longer pellet = 2,3,4 shorter ones.  Or auger design.  Or density of the particular pellet. Or ?  But when I see tiny pellets, I know I'll be abusing the auger motor.


----------



## 1Dtml (Feb 15, 2012)

I've been following this thread, and it inspired me to do a bit of on hand research.
I've been burning Somersets in my Enviro Maxx, and the size of pellet is pretty consistent on the smallish side. 
To my knowledge Somersets are all hardwood, so this is what I presume for this experiment.
My temperature readings have been from 280*F to over 300*F, but the most consistent reading I get is 289*F with the flame optimized and the stove running for over an hour. When optimized I get very little ash, and very little build up on the burn pot.
After a stove cleaning I went to MWP for the first time, and noticed that these pellets are consistently smaller than the Somerset pellets, so these should burn hotter according to this thread.
For the first run I left the stove adjusted the same as for the Somerset pellets, and the temperatures were 230*F- 250*F with the most consistent temp being 240*F.
I could tell from the flame that it had too much air for this pellet, but I continued the experiment because I noticed a bunch more ash, and carbon build up.
I gave the stove a cleaning to proceed with my experiment.
I then ran the MWP pellets with the flame optimized to find that the temps ran from 250*F to 280*F with the most consistent reading being 263*F.
I was more amazed that the ash amount with the flame optimized was much less, and very little burn pot build up with the glass staying cleaner than with the Somerset pellets burning at optimum.
It appears that ash build up has more to do with an optimized burn than the quality of the pellet.

Some have mentioned pellet density being a factor in heat production, and I believe my experiment may give this theory a boost.

I have also noticed that there is a hardwood vs softwood heat production argument going on with many threads, but after my experiment I think that hardwood/softwood blends in general may be the pellet that produces less heat, any thought on this???

The MWP is a hardwood/softwood blend, and I have run many other blends from other manufactures, and all have produced less heat than any of my straight hardwood or softwood pellets, but I will definitely be tuning each of my stoves for optimal burning from now on, for more heat and less cleaning sounds good to me.

1D


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 15, 2012)

1Dtml said:
			
		

> I've been following this thread, and it inspired me to do a bit of on hand research.
> I've been burning Somersets in my Enviro Maxx, and the size of pellet is pretty consistent on the smallish side.
> To my knowledge Somersets are all hardwood, so this is what I presume for this experiment.
> My temperature readings have been from 280*F to over 300*F, but the most consistent reading I get is 289*F with the flame optimized and the stove running for over an hour. When optimized I get very little ash, and very little build up on the burn pot.
> ...



OK the variables got you! 

1st. is density, Although the MWP pellets are smaller. They are not as dense as the Somersets. The more fuel in is greater with a dense pellet. You can prove this with a common scale. Fill a jar or box with Somersets. Settle it slightly. Then weigh it and note the weight. Do the same with the MWP and compare. The heavier weight should be Somersets because of the higher density.

2nd. Is fiber of the wood species. Seeing the Somerset is mostly oak  fiber. You see more heat even if they were about the same size/density. Although minimal it is a factor. Many don't believe that, But I do. Just hard to prove without a lab and special equipment.


----------



## ironpony (Feb 15, 2012)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> 1Dtml said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...







as long as the density is fiber not filler taht some use
so a heavier pellet could put out less heat
another variable
the way I see it, even not so good pellets are cheaper than oil, electric or propane
or just buy a HarmAn
all pellets burn the same


----------



## 1Dtml (Feb 15, 2012)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> 1Dtml said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yuph, I mentioned that this gave the density theory a boost, so I agree.
My points were that one should optimize the burn of any given pellet, or I'm sure some will say "buy a Harman."  ;-) 
This should not only provide your pellet gives out its max heat production, but I think you will have less ash to deal with.
I was also guessing that both 100% hardwood or 100% softwood pellets have a higher density level than most if not all blends??
You have done much testing, so are there any blends that produce the heat levels of the 100% hard or soft pellets???

I think that if a stove is not tuned for the pellet that is being burned that the results will vary greatly, hence why we are always saying "try some for all stoves are different."

I was very surprised at the amount of ash (a bunch) that was produced by the MWP pellets when the burn wasn't optimized when compared to the same MWP pellets producing (very little) ash when the burn was optimized.

I will be optimizing for each pellet brand I use before deciding which to purchase from now on....just sayin!  ;-P 

1D


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 15, 2012)

1Dtml said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you got feed trim and combustion trim on your side. You can tweak the burn. Basically what the harman is doing. Ours isn't automatic, But we can tweak to what we want(not what a computer wants). Yeah fuel injection is easier, But carbs are tinkering man's toys! Usually only needed if pellet brands are changed. And something to do when its cold out. I would rather be tweaking my stove and hugging my pellets than watching the tellie anyway!


----------



## 1Dtml (Feb 15, 2012)

That's what I'm saying, now that I've got the tweaking down it opens up more options as to pellet brands.

So did you ever find a hard/soft blend that could come close to the 100%s in heat production???

This may be a short cut to knowing what produces more heat without trying every brand out there.

1D


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 15, 2012)

1Dtml said:
			
		

> That's what I'm saying, now that I've got the tweaking down it opens up more options as to pellet brands.
> 
> So did you ever find a hard/soft blend that could come close to the 100%s in heat production???
> 
> ...



The lignetic's green(with conifer) was about the best in the blends.


----------



## 1Dtml (Feb 15, 2012)

Results of my totally unscientific test.

Here is one of you tests: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/50101/

I just took the averages of temperatures from your tables, and found the following:

100% hardwood pellets average temperature = 245*F

100% softwood pellets average temperature = 247*F

hardwood/softwood blend pellets average temperature = 233*F

Not a large sample, and I'm not sure that you optimized your burn settings, so this may mean nothing, but is interesting none the less.

1D


----------



## jtakeman (Feb 15, 2012)

1D said:
			
		

> Results of my totally unscientific test.
> 
> Here is one of you tests: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/50101/
> 
> ...



To be close in the approx. times of the testing. I set them all to heat setting 3 and feed trim 3. Only adjusted damper air to get a consistent flame. Should be close enough for none lab test result's And many stoves out there don't have feed trim anyways.


----------

