# Ten Acres Is Enough



## jebatty

A great read Ten Acres Is Enough.

EDIT: Try this link instead Small Farm Resources


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## Badfish740

Thanks for the link-ten to fifteen acres is my goal for a small farm.  Here in New Jersey we still have rural lands left, but they tend to be pricey-ten to fifteen is about all I could ever hope to afford.  We hope to have enough land to harvest our own firewood, raise some chickens and turkeys, grow enough food to supplement our own use, and to hunt on.


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## Dune

Nice resource. Thanks.


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## stockdoct

10 acres sounds like a wonderful sized property to  own.  I envy you

But I also know, from a financial perspective, that the things 10 acres gives (food, fresh air, wood heat) is NOT the things I spend most of my money on.  For instance, would farming my property pay my internet bill?  Summer air conditioning?  Health insurance?   Car insurance?  Here's a list of things where I spend the vast amount of my money, in no particular order:

Property taxes
Car insurance and depreciation
Kid's college (7 years, between 2 kids)
booze
automobile depreciation and repairs ($3000 a year)
milk, coffee, cheese, beef--- all those groceries I can't make on the farm
health insurance and health co-pays 
Internet service, cable TV
Utilities, phone, electricity, sewer, garbage removal


It seems my usual expenditures of $40,000 a year would drop by less than $10,000 or so, if I had a 10 acre farm where I made my own turkeys, chicken, vegetables, and wood burning heat.    Definately not something I could "live off"

Just thinking.........


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## jebatty

I think the fellow who wrote the book also thought it was impossible at that time until he researched, planned, and implemented the plan. The same could be done today. But remember, this was posted as a "great read," and likely will provoke some new thinking and dreaming.

A person would have to do some serious modern day research and then be willing to start on a tight budget to bring this into a realistic plan. The only totally unescapable expense is property taxes. Health insurance, probably not what you have now, is possible (or remember when there was none?). Electricity can be reduced tremendously if a person really tried and was willing to give up many things now considered essential, but truly not. Water could come from a well or a stream, sewer from an outhouse or septic system, and garbage removal is reduced to zero by reducing consumption and then compost and recycling. Kids can pay there own way through college, booze is a luxury, food consumption turns to what can be produced or bought with goods produced and sold; auto and fuel also can be reduced to the essentials needed to operate the farm.

One point is that living in a 21st century world we consider essential so many things that are not that it is really hard to get our head around a lifestyle radically different. There are billions of people in the world who live on the income earned from less than 10 acres of land.


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## SE Iowa

I agree 100%.   We (myself included) have lost our ability to descern between needs and wants.  I hope that we never get tested like they did during the depression.  I wonder if we'd make it without widespread riots and looting.  Most Americans are not tied to the production of our basic needs.  We turn on the hot water and are irritated when it is not 125F.  Food and meat come from the groery store, etc.   I have told my wife that as soon as our farm and house is paid for, I'm quitting work and just going to farm enough acres to pay taxes and get basic needs.  Most of the crap I spend money does not satisfy and definately has no eternal value.


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## i3bpvh

my wife makes fun of me because my dream is to own 50 acres.  Farm 5, 2-3 for livestock, and the rest for hunting and wood.  Sell enough wood, meat and produce to pay the bills, buy ammo and gas.


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## Flatbedford

I'd love to figure out how to do it. I work in the New York City and live in the suburbs. I would give up a lot to never have to set foot in NYC again and live in the country. I just have to get the whole family on board with me. My wife and I both want it, we just have to decide how badly we want it.


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## SolarAndWood

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> I would give up a lot to never have to set foot in NYC again and live in the country. I just have to get the whole family on board with me.



Smaller cities are a compromise that might be an easier sell.  You get the best of both worlds.  We live 4 miles from downtown Syracuse yet are in the country.  Now, it may not be country 20 years from now but it is pleasant and convenient in the meantime.


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## jebatty

> I just have to get the whole family on board with me. My wife and I both want it, we just have to decide how badly we want it.



And that's exactly the question - how badly do you want it? If you want it, then you deed to make this a goal and then follow a plan. IMO a goal statement is Present, Personal, Positive with a Timeline ("Goals," by Brian Tracy). And with that, start making the Plan.

A simple goal statement might be, "On May 1, 20__, I and my family are living on a ____ acre farm with sustainable land resources for [farming, woodland, hunting ....]." Repeat that statement out loud at least daily, and start writing down the steps you need to take to make this happen by the time set. Start to put a timeline on the steps, and then do it. On May 1, 20__, you will have achieved your goal.


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## Flatbedford

Sounds like a plan. We just have to figure out what we really do want. In a perfect world my land would also be my sole source of income. There are a few details to sort out. I don't want to live like they did on Little House on the Prairie, but I don't need a mcmansion either. The most important thing is to figure out if it is just a fantasy, or if we really can make it happen. We've thought of doing the B&B;thing as one way to have our country place support us, but I'm not sure if I want to deal with the people. I'm not afraid of hard work or long hours, my work day in the city is 12-16 hours plus at least 2 hours travel time for 9 months of the year. My biggest problem is that for the last 20 years I have worked in the entertainment industry as a Stagehand or Motion Picture Studio Mechanic. Too far from a big city, and there is no work for me. That brings me back to the income issue. What could I do for a living away from a big city?


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## SolarAndWood

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Too far from a big city, and there is no work for me. That brings me back to the income issue. What could I do for a living away from a big city?



While I love NY, moving away from our property taxes would significantly reduce your income requirements.  If you find a resort area with cheap non-lakefront property, you could probably make a living selling $300 cords to the Mcmansioners and get property maintenance work along with it.


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## Flatbedford

Possibly. If I leave one of the most expensive places to live in the US (NY metro area), I guess I wouldn't have to make nearly as much money as I do. I have messed around with all kinds of stuff, wood cutting, construction, limited car and truck repair. May be I could be a handyman, firewood, fix it guy, and work the whole business from my farm. Can people really do that? If the economy ever gets going again, the equity in my house would surely go much further in the "country" somewhere. One thing though. Could I still get fresh sushi?


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## jebatty

I am a professional, now retired (retired Dec 31, 2006). From 1972 to 1997 I practiced my profession in Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN. In 1992 I went solo in my profession, based in our home. In 1997, when our youngest was 21 and graduated from trade school, we sold our house and move 175 miles north to our cabin on the lake. I continued to practice my profession solo from our cabin, and then fully retired in Dec 2006. In each of these two solo steps I took big cuts in income and ended up way below my peers. My professional friends said they envied me and "wished" they could do what I did.

The relevant word is "wish" (or dream). If you only wish for something, it will never happen. You need to make it a goal, and then it will happen. The big difference between my peers and myself was that my wife and I were willing to make the sacrifices to live in our cabin, that is, lose most of my business and give up most of my income in exchange for a much simpler and less expensive life in northern Minnesota.

I'm not living on 10 acres, but we have woodlands, heat 100% with wood (except electric backup if we are gone for a few days in winter), water from a well, sewer is a septic system, harvest trees, make and sell some lumber, do practically everything myself, produce some of our food from a garden, provide a large portion of our meat from hunting, and indeed live very simply -- and I devote substantial time to voluntary efforts working towards a sustainable environment for us all. 

As simple as we live, my wife and I continue on our journey to an even more simple life. This includes expanding the garden and raising chickens. Although I am retired, my wife works two days/week as a nurse, so we do have income other than from retirement. 

Even if you decide not to make "10 acres" your goal, the range of options to simplify are huge, and the payback in quality of life is even greater. Make your plan and go for it.


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## jebatty

I wrote this in Dec 2006 to our children. Disregard the focus only on oil (although it may be true, we face many other challenges of equal importance and with probable similar effect). This lays out a change very consistent with "10 acres is enough."

This is not the usual e-mail. I don't regard this as silly. If as you read this you think I am being too dark or dismal, skip to the last paragraph and then go back and finish reading what I have to say.

A couple of weeks ago I attended a conference on "green" design sponsored by two Minnesota quasi-governmental agencies. I was particularly challenged by the topic presented by luncheon speaker, James Howard Kunstler, who presented a petroleum-depletion paradigm (along with other issues) which is not only plausible but also probable, in my opinion. I also ordered and now have read one of his books, "The Long Emergency." I will be very brief on the paradigm laid out by Mr. Kuntsler. I find his paradigm to be more probable than not, at least sufficient to begin now to develop a plan to "hedge" the future. Everything that follows is greatly simplified. I encourage you to read the book if this intrigues you.

His chief thesis is that the world now is or very soon will be at the "petroleum peak," defined as the point at which one-half of world oil reserves will bave been depleted. While one-half yet remains, the key fact is that the first one-half represented the cheap, easy to extract, and high quaility petroleum and natural gas, while the second one-half is just the opposite on a cascading scale of rising extraction cost and diminishing quality. He then argues that the world has no viable, economical energy replacement. Nuclear power represents the best option, but the United States is woefully behind in development of this option, and nuclear/electric power will not meet every energy need. Other energy options, such as hydrogen, solar, and biomass, are either petroleum dependent for their production, technologially illusory and extremely costly, and/or cannot provide sufficient energy to replace petroleum. Coal is a viable option for some energy needs, but the environmental cost will be great, available supplies may be exaggerated, and distribution limitations will not make coal a viable option at all locations.

While the play-out of the oil depletion paradigm is complex, suffice it to say that the results will include 1) the substantial end of automobile transportation (due to lack of fuel),  2) great down-sizing of nearly all industries (with consequent loss of employment) due to their oil dependence, 3) collapse of suburban and sprawled develoment, which depend upon the auto for their existence, 4) collapse of large cities because little productive work can be maintained in these cities without a petroleum based economy, 5) collapse of the financial markets (which may be the first to occur as the prospect of wealth loss appears likely), and 6) great social upheaval.

He argues that future life (future begining now and probably fully realized within about 15 years) will nead to be based upon small, largely self-sufficient and sustainable communities with these attributes: 1) located on or very near to current or potential hydroelectric waterways (a source of power), 2) located on or very near to rail and/or barge/ship waterway infrastructure (source of needed supplies and using petroleum/coal efficiently), 3) located near productive agricultural lands (souce of food), and 4) currently vital with small businesses able to meet essential needs and provide community support (and not likely to be sites of big box development such as Target, Walmart, Home Depot, etc.). Essentially, this is the picture of America before the mid-1950's.

Things I have tentatively concluded and would encourage you to think about and act on, at least as a hedge of the future:
1) Gain productive skills, trades, crafts which can provide a livlihood and assist in providing for your families in an oil-depleted future. In this regard, recreation and entertainment based industries may not have much of a future; medicine seems likely to have a future, but the drug and medical technology industries are very petroleum intensive, so "family practice" or nursing type medicine skills may have the best future; and most education-intensive and service-type professions do not have much of a future. Employment which will have a future will be that which truly is productive (converting a resource into a usable and needed product or maintaining a needed product).
2) Locate or plan now for living arrangements compatible with the preferred community description above. There is a high probability of suburbia collapse, collapse of large portions of the housing market, and consequent loss of value of suburban homes. We may be seeing the start of this now. When maintaining a suburban existence, renting would be better than owning, and keeping a high mortgage balance would be better than accelerating payments to build an equity which may disappear (use available funds to finance the hedge). A rented home may be easily left, and a high mortgage/leveraged home may be abandoned to foreclosure with minimal loss.
3) Move investment possibilities away from stocks, bonds, and probably even bank accounts (social upheaval may mimic the financial collapse of 1929 and loss of bank deposit assets). Consider agriculturally productive land or possibly forest productive land; a small, economical home in a small community of the type described above (rent out now and move in when needed); a small production business of a highly needed, basic product and which has good possibility of nearby available resources to maintain production in the face of supply disruption; other resource-based, hard assets (coal, lignite, peat, as energy sources, and essential minerals).

Things I would encourage you to avoid or resist include: Any further suburbanization of your lifestyle. Risk of loss is high and probability of risk realizaiton is high.

[continues with next post]


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## jebatty

[continued]

Final word: in a worst case, that is, if none of these predictions is realized and rosy economic growth and development continues as in the recent past, a family life based on the tentative conclusions actually is quite good and even may be highly attractive. In essence, it is the "simple life" to which many people aspire. It also may be a much more meaningful life because this type of life connects us closely with our environment and develops community. Lastly, it also may permit us to better cope with some of the other major issues and challenges of our time: climate change, epidemic disease, water shortage, environmental destruction, and world politics.

With my caring love, Dad.


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## Flatbedford

Along with your professional friends, I too envy you.
I am only 39 now. My stepson starts his last year (if all goes well) of High School in a few weeks. We won't be making any big moves until he is out and on his path. We have some time to make our plan yet. For now, I'll do my best to get the most out of my 1/4 "farmstead" and I'll keep on learning about my options and try to save some money too. In 16 years (55 y.o.) I can retire with a pension and full health benefits (assuming, haha, that things don't change much). My house here will be mostly paid for and we should have quite a few options. I'll just have to tough it out for a while and keep checking in with my friends here at hearth.com that are already living the way they like.

I posted this before the last two posts.

Certainly some doom and gloom there! Not unrealistic either. I know that the whole suburbia thing is totally non sustainable. I don't want to be a part of it anylonger than I have to, but I am now deeply entrenched in it. The financial events of the last yea have only gotten me even deeper. It won't be easy, but I am determined to get out of this one way or another. It all goes back the fundamental question; How much would I/we/you give up to get out? That is not a question I can easily answer. 
I have a cousin in Atlanta that has gotten very involved in the "New Urbanism" movement. creation of sustainable, somewhat independent communities is the way of the future.


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## Flatbedford

jebatty said:
			
		

> recreation and entertainment based industries may not have much of a future;



I got a kick out of this part. I guess this lifetime Stagehand is screwed!  :grrr:


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## jebatty

A little amusing that I wrote the above in Dec 2006, not longer before the economic collapse in which we still wallow. We may be experiencing a few of the predictions.


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## jebatty

> I got a kick out of this part. I guess this lifetime Stagehand is screwed!



I have a son-in-law in just about the same business. At age 40, he's ready to hang it up but doesn't know what to do. The current stage work is too hard on the body. too much time away from the family. too erratic, odd and long hours, and not enough work. Good luck to you.


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## Flatbedford

I am lucky that here in NY the work can be very steady and quite lucrative. I am also lucky that I've been at my current job long enough that my work isn't even that hard on my body anymore. The hours do however suck! Between my work and my hobbies, I do have some pretty useful skills in other fields, only my resume probably wouldn't show that too well.


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## Cluttermagnet

Excellent thread, jebatty. Thought provoking. It's stimulated me to read a few of the references and think about it all. I'm thoroughly stuck in the suburbanization matrix. I'd like to escape that. One thing that struck me from reading early parts of the original 1866 reference "Ten Acres Enough" is that the greedy bankers have been making life miserable for everyone else for quite a long time, actually. This is nothing new. The writer suffered from the financial panic of 1837. Bankers have run the economy into a ditch repeatedly to finance their high rolling lifestyles. I guess they'll finally be happy when they've turned the clock back a thousand years and we live in a feudal society once again. Ah, actually, we're rapidly headed back there. Most have not figured this out yet.

Visions of "Green Acres" flash before me, as Eddy Albert croons the corny theme music. And for aficionados of the sci-fi genre, I picture THX1138 running away as the voice track drones "...he is leaving the city..." ;-)


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## timfromohio

Jebatty - great post.  I have read several books by Kunstler and frequently read his Monday rants.  I have read multiple other books about peak oil and am very concerned about the potential impact it will have.  While I have not read the book, I'd argue that 10 acres is most certainly not enough though.  I started another thread about the required size for a sustainable wood lot - based on a lot of really good responses, it seems like one would need a minimum of 10 acres just for a sustainable wood lot, nevermind acreage for pasture and fields.  In any case, this was a good post and I think you gave your kids some sound advice.  How did they react?


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## SE Iowa

I would say that 10 acres would be more than enough.  
Garden = 1/4 to 1/2 acre
Orchard = 1/8 to 1/4 acre
Ceral Grain crops = 1/8 acre each for wheat, oats, sorgum
Feed Grain crops = 1/2 acre soybeans and 1/2 acre corn
Alfalfa = 1 to 2 acres
Pasture = 2-3 acres (note would not really be enough for cow production but for meat goats, milk goats and sheep (lamb))

That leaves about 5 acres for house, pond and trees.
Noted that this would not be enough timber for heating/cooking BUT You could grow prairie grasses like switchgrass or big blue stem and bale them up every year.  Insert outdoor would boiler (w/ tech changes) and bingo, you've got heat.


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## Flatbedford

Or buy your 10 acres some place where it doesn't get too cold.


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## SolarAndWood

Are wheat and oats practical to do small scale?


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## SE Iowa

I planted 1/2 acre of oats this spring as a nurse crop to some alfalfa/clover/brome hay.  We just spread it with a air seeder and harrowed it in a couple passes.  We actually did not combine it though.  Instead we just mowed and baled it up with the oats still on the straw.  You get some clover and alfalfa that way too.  The cows pretty much eat it all and get a little straw spread around as fodder.  I actually would not raise 1/8 acre of all the cerial crops as you are right, they wouldn't be efficient to harvest that small amount.  I would invision growing 5 acres of oats and trading with neighbors for alfalfa, wheat etc.  It would be more like the old days where you'd rotate your crops every year so that someone always had what you grew and you had what someone else needed and so on.


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## timfromohio

My impression was that the author of "10 acres is enough" was implying that it would be enough to be self-sufficient.  I still maintain there's no way it would be enough to be self-sufficient even if one was a vegetarian, let alone have to grow enough feed to over-winter even a small amount of livestock.  Of course, I haven't tried, but based on reading a lot about this topic I think an order of magnitude more acreage would be required.  You could definetly do A LOT on 10 acres, but I think it would be necessary to supplment feed, etc. from outside the farm.

SolarAndWood - I've read a couple of articles/book chapters on small-scale wheat production (small-scale being in the 1/8 of an acre range) and according to what I've read it can be done successfully.  Check out "The Self Sufficient Life and How to Live it" by John Seymour (anything by him is awesome) - in it he details how he would split up 1/2 acre, couple of acres, 5 acres, etc. and I think he covers small-scale wheat production.  

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Sufficie...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250797109&sr=1-4


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## SE Iowa

By the way, some of this does depend on where you are located.  An acre of west Texas pasture would not support what 1 acre of eastern Iowa would.


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## Flatbedford

SE Iowa said:
			
		

> By the way, some of this does depend on where you are located.  An acre of west Texas pasture would not support what 1 acre of eastern Iowa would.



But you would need a heck of lot less firewood to stay warm in Tx  .


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## timfromohio

How many acres do you have?  Do you have to supplement feed from off your farm alot?  Again, my opinion on the 10 acres was formed just from reading a lot and starting to do what I can on just under 2 acres (big garden, berry patch, orchard in the planning stages), etc.


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## timfromohio

I forgot to preface my last post - it was a question for SE Iowa.  Anybody else with acreage chime it


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## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> I still maintain there's no way it would be enough to be self-sufficient even if one was a vegetarian



Our young 8000 sq ft garden produces an amazing amount of food and we are no where near maximizing its potential.  I doubt it would take more than an acre to feed a vegetarian family.


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## SolarAndWood

SE Iowa said:
			
		

> I planted 1/2 acre of oats this spring as a nurse crop to some alfalfa/clover/brome hay.  We just spread it with a air seeder and harrowed it in a couple passes.  We actually did not combine it though.  Instead we just mowed and baled it up with the oats still on the straw.  You get some clover and alfalfa that way too.  The cows pretty much eat it all and get a little straw spread around as fodder.  I actually would not raise 1/8 acre of all the cerial crops as you are right, they wouldn't be efficient to harvest that small amount.  I would invision growing 5 acres of oats and trading with neighbors for alfalfa, wheat etc.  It would be more like the old days where you'd rotate your crops every year so that someone always had what you grew and you had what someone else needed and so on.



That is what I was thinking.  It would seem that you would have to limit your crops to things that don't require large fields and large equipment.  We have had very good luck with soybeans on a small scale but corn has been banned from the garden.


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## SE Iowa

I don't know about that livestock equation.  
  We usually stock al least 4-6 goats/sheep per acre and feed them 7 pounds of hay + 0.5lbs of corn per day in the winter.  That would be about 1/8th acre of hay per year and 3.25 bushels of corn per year (1/50th acre at most) per head.  One acre of hay should therefore provide for 8 nannys (2 of which should provide more than enough milk) with at least 12 kids (meat).  It should take about 4 bushels of corn plus some straw/hay to feed each of the 12 kids to fattened weight which might be up to 1/4-1/3 of an acre of corn.  By the way that would be at least 500 lbs of meat in the freezer.  
  Finally, chickens eat 4 oz of feed per day so that it takes about 85 pounds of mixed grains per year.  This would be if they were non-range birds on full feed in captivity 24/7.  Let them eat table scrapes and pick thru the manure and you'd see that come down by alot.  Depends on how much chicken you like to eat vs egg production but figure 3lbs of grower feed per lb of gain of meat or 5.5 eggs per chicken per week (3.8 lbs of feed per dozen eggs), but you can see it doesn't take much feed to eat chicken and eggs for dinner.


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## Flatbedford

These guys are self sufficient on 1/5 of an acre, cultivating on only 1/10 acre.
http://www.pathtofreedom.com/urban-homestead
They are in Southern Ca, so their firewood needs are non existent and they can grow all year.


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## SE Iowa

To answer your questions. I own about 180 acres in 2 tracts. Most of my farm is in the CRP program (prairie grass) but I do farm and additional 630 acres(rent) of which about 430 acres are tillable. I mostly plant soybeans and corn and some mixed hays and grass hay. We sublease out the pasture (~200 acres) a cow-calf operator but currently have 44 steer calves on feed. Which means that we bought them at ~500lbs and are feeding them haylage and silage plus ground corn and supplement until they are ready to send to market in 1 year (~1300-1500lbs each we hope). We also have egg chickens and raised boilers this spring for meat. 

As a side note, my 2 cents on chickens is start with egg production before moving on to meat production. You'd be surprised to learn how fast you'll buy chicken in the store if you start with meat chickens FIRST. Master egg production (more gratifying anyway) then move on to meat production and PROCESSSING next. You'll find that neither really saves money (although egg production comes closer) but does provide sustainability. We only have a small garden right now as I work in town 3 days a week plus all the farming. As soon as we pay off the house and land, I'm out of there (see some previous posts). We live an an area where there are literally farmers (usually their kids) selling vegetables along side the road. Some also sell bread and other things too (melons, sweet corn, rabbits, chicken, beef etc). We also have a locker about every 15 miles as a lot of people still raise their own pigs and cows for butchering. I butcher my own pigs now but a cow is a little big to handle all alone.


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## timfromohio

Thanks for all of the information SEIowa.    SolarAndWood - are you able to produce enough compost on your own land?  Maybe I'm just not there yet.  We have about 3,000 squre foot garden plust another 13 raised beds.  Composting all the waste plant material, leaves, and grass my property generates still doens't give me enough organic matter.  That said, my soil is terrible - mostly clay.  Flatford - I've looked at their site in the past and was very impressed with what they can do on so little land.  But I believe that they bring in a lot of compost/manure/soil amendments.  My "what if" thinking was how much would one need if you could not bring in all that outside stuff.  

We have chickens (laying hens) in the plan for next year.  My wife is not into butchering, so if we did meat birds I'd be solo on the butchering part of the operation ...

The small-scale grain growing I read about called for harvesting/processing the grain by hand - anybody tried that?


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## SE Iowa

We are fortunate enough to be able to use manure for composting although we still maintain a compost pile for kitchen scraps etc.
As far as your clay soils, buy some gypsum. 300-400lbs per acre every year for 2-3 years (sounds like a lot but it's cheap = $4/50lbs). It is made of Ca SO4. basically the SO4 binds the magnesium up in tight clay soils and which exposes the negative charges on the clay particles so that they can hold on to more humus and nitrogen/oxygen. It will help loosen your soil. The resulting salt (Mg SO4) is epsom salts and is easily washed way the next rain. 
Run all your compost thru your chickens first. They will either eat it or keep it constantly stirred up so that it decomposes fast.
Yes, you can harvest your crops by hand, esp corn (think the Nebraska Corn Huskers). All corn was hand picked up until the lat 30's and early 40's. In addition sickles weere used for harvesting oats and wheat and then they ran them thru a threashing machine, but you could hand thrash them.


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## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> SolarAndWood - are you able to produce enough compost on your own land?



I shamelessly cheated.  Our acre and a half is on the north end of a drumlin and had little more than glacial till when we started.  After I built the garden terraces, I trailered in 15 or so loads of highly organic material from the feed lot at a friends former dairy farm.  Our walkways, also where the wheels from the tractor run while rototilling and subsoiling, were built and are maintained with wood mulch from the city mulch pile.  We mow a little over an acre of grass that we use to mulch around the plants.  We also get compost material from the deli down the street from my office.


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## timfromohio

SolarAndWood - hey, that's not cheating.  I'm thinking of asking at houses that appear to have horses that pass by on my way home from work.  If I could score some free manure ... almost as good as free firewood!

SEIowa - thanks for the suggestion.  

Good soil is the key.  My raised beds, in which I used purchased soil/compost mix, are fantastic.  Excellent yields.  My new, traditional, garden area - very poor results.  My best result ever?  Squash seedlings that were leftover and half-dead.  I tossed them in my compost pile.  I now have the largest pumpkin plant I've ever seen growing out of the compost pile.  Incredible.


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## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> My new, traditional, garden area - very poor results.



I think we are going to do Winter Rye/Vetch/Clover in the garden this winter after hitting it with the subsoiler and maybe some more highly organic material from the farm.  Check out

http://www.hort.cornell.edu/gardening/factsheets/ecogardening/impsoilcov.html


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## BucksCoBernie

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My new, traditional, garden area - very poor results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think we are going to do Winter Rye/Vetch/Clover in the garden this winter after hitting it with the subsoiler and maybe some more highly organic material from the farm.  Check out
> 
> http://www.hort.cornell.edu/gardening/factsheets/ecogardening/impsoilcov.html
Click to expand...


my order of hairy vetch just came in the mail last week. im going to sow it in our raised beds as a cover crop. I just picked up some fox urine earlier this week to keep the damn groundhog out of my garden. I had no idea those fat little bastards can climb! So far i havent seen him around since i sprayed the fox pee.

here's a pic of what my garden looked like at the beginning of summer....it has since filled in completely. I had no idea butternut squash and pumpkins grow that rapidly.


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## timfromohio

I'm on the fence about what to do with the soil - I was thinking of a cover crop until I read about sheet composting - putting down 4" layer of manure, cover with cardboard/newspaper, then cover with 4"-6" of mulch.  Do this in the fall and supposedly in spring you'll have vastly improved soil.  My other problem is that here in NEOhio we have very wet springs - makes it hard to till anything - really, by the time my plot is ready for proper tilling stuff should be in the ground already.  Also thought of trying some double digging on some specific plots, although that's a lot more work.  

BucksCoBernie - sweet pic.  Garden looks great.  How much did the fox wee set you back?  My neighbor has a large groundhog that lives underneath his shed.  We seem to have an understanding - the groundhog looks at me, but never ventures over the property line.  Never.  Perhaps he has seen what happened to the skunks that were tearing up the yard and the rabbits that managed to infiltrate my fencing ....


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## BucksCoBernie

timfromohio said:
			
		

> BucksCoBernie - sweet pic.  Garden looks great.  How much did the fox wee set you back?



It was only $5 for a 1oz spray bottle. i cut strips of an old t-shirt and tied them to my garden fence and gave each strip about 3 squirts of the pee. i only used a little bit.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...;.x=0&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&_requestid=14858


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## timfromohio

I use subsonic .22 rounds for the critters.


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## SolarAndWood

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> here's a pic of what my garden looked like at the beginning of summer....it has since filled in completely. I had no idea butternut squash and pumpkins grow that rapidly.



It seems like all the rain this year has been great for filling in the garden.  While it has been a challenge on our existing terrace, the new terrace I built over the winter and planted this spring did very well.  The pumpkins are out of hand.


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## jadm

In checking out the 'reading' list I was surprised not to find "Living the Good Life" by Scott and Helen Nearing.  

Don't know how many acres they had but I know they left the 'big city' in the early 1900's and  lived well off of the land the rest of their lives.  No electricity. No running water.....

They didn't  just live they thrived.  Didn't need health insurance because they didn't get sick!  Lived into their 90's I think but can't remember.  It's been awhile since I read the book.

Many visited them to see how they did it.  Not many followed them.  Couldn't give up the creature comforts they had been conditioned to want.....


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## timfromohio

The Nearings made their first homestead in rural Vermont, but later moved to Maine.  Neat story.  

http://www.goodlife.org/

SolarAndWood - nice pics.  I bet you have no problems with soil drainage due to the terraced design.  How high is your fencing?  I have "rabbit proof" fense up to 3', then a single electric line at 5'.  This worked up to recently with the deer, but I have twice now found a deer in the garden.  Earlier this week I chased one out and she actually dove between the fece and the electric line.  Couldn't believe it.


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## SolarAndWood

I built the first terrace 3 years ago and now wish I had pitched it more.  I almost tripled the grade on the terrace I built over this past winter.  It has done very well even with all the rain this year.  We have an out of control deer population, tried the live and let live approach year 1, didn't go so well.  4' of coated wire fence with polypro net to the top of the 8' t posts has kept them out since.  We still do get a few enterprising chipmunks through.  Since the sunflowers have matured, the birds mostly crows have disappeared.  Not sure if that is coincidence or not.


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## timfromohio

Here are some pics of our raised bed garden at the beginning of a season and the new, traditional, garden area.


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## timfromohio

New garden area


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## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Here are some pics of our raised bed garden at the beginning of a season and the new, traditional, garden area.



That is stunning...I'm glad my wife wasn't looking over my shoulder.


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## timfromohio

Thanks.  You should see the new garden area now - loosing battle against weeds big time.  Two more rows of spuds to harvest, then the bulk of it will get rototilled.


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## jebatty

Having started this thread, really glad to see the interest it sparked. Our garden right now is two 5 x 25 plots, double dug, 100% organic. Never walk on the garden itself. Each year just top dress with some compost, and that's it. Using heritage seeds for most things, and save some crop for seed for next year's crop. I'm still taking it really easy, as getting burned out on taking care of a garden is not my goal. Just broccoli, carrots, beans, lettuce, squash and cucumber this year, with some early season radishes. We get some really dry spells, so a drip irrigation system is the goal for next year.


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## timfromohio

jebatty - glad that you saw your thread took off.  Our gardens are 100% organic as well and we grow everything (well, try to grow) from heirloom seed.  

Back to your original post - how did your family react to you peak oil letter?  Did it influence them to increase the level of self-sufficiency?


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## woodsman23

I have a 63 acre place in western ny and i lived in the city for many many years. We bought the land 10 acres at first then more and more as time went on. I hated the city life and it was getting worse all the time. We (wife and I) said so many time that we were going to move but we just never did. Finally one day i said i was going to build a cabin at the land and noone was going to stop me.

 I had no idea on how to build a home BUT i mhad freinds that did and they love to hunt and i had tons of huntin g spots just for them if they helped build. Well spring came and i began, Had the road and site put in by local farmer for 900 bucks (way cheap). We began building the cabin and while building everyone had ideas for bigger better longer wider. So instead of just a cabin we now had a 2 story "cabin" with a 14x20 addition being built as a mud room and we had a ball doing it. It took almost 1.5 years of weekends to get it done but it is finished. 

It was then i said to my wife it's now or never and she okay and we moved there and have been nothing short of amased every day, it is a great way of life, no traffic, no people near, no noise except nature it has been great. 

  We live there full time and i have huge garden, lots of game a pellet stove and wood stove. We are 20% solar withy more coming. I have a natural spring which has been tapped to the house with water temp year round at 48 degrees, we have a spetic (put in myself) Only thing we have is property taxes of a ~1800 a year.


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## timfromohio

63 acres makes me drool.  That is great - do you still commute to the city for work?  We've talked of moving out, but there's the tradeoff - proximity to employment vs. lost time commuting.


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## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> 63 acres makes me drool.  That is great - do you still commute to the city for work?  We've talked of moving out, but there's the tradeoff - proximity to employment vs. lost time commuting.



It will only get worse as you get your property completely set up for the way you want to live.  I assume you didn't build those raised beds for resale value?


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## Cluttermagnet

Thanks @perplexed and @timfromohio for the reminder about Scott Nearing. He was quite a principled man. Aside from his politics, which largely make sense to me, his advocacy of self sufficiency, including organic farming, are also quite inspiring. I'm happy for you guys who have the nice gardens and are to some extent self- supporting for food. You and your families will live longer and more satisfying lives.

One of my best little kid (age 11) memories is that one year when a friend of my father allowed me to garden on their historic estate a half mile down the road. It was truly awesome, the quality and quantity of vegetables we pulled from that garden. I'll never forget it. That land must have laid fallow a long time.

I'm a bit too old now to build such an estate personally, but could probably find such a situation where I could trade skills and work for a small share of garden and woodlot. In fact, I have about half of that today- a good friend allows me to harvest dead standing and dead fall from his acreage. Lucky for me, he is no longer a wood burner.


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## timfromohio

SolarAndWood - yes, constant dilemma in my mind.  I would like to plant fruit and nut trees as well as creat additional row-type garden areas so I can try some small-scale crop rotation and grow things like corn and potatoes in bulk.  Then I think "how much do I want to put into this property?".  Flip side to this is that in the area we live (Cleveland-Akron area) land is ridiculously expensive and property taxes are even more outrageous.  I presently commute 12.5 miles from my house to work on mostly back quasi-country roads.  The drive takes me 20 to 25 minutes.  I could probably afford 10 to 20 acres but then we'd be driving A LOT more.  45 minutes to work, much less convenient for wife to go food shopping or take kids to doctors appointments, church, etc.  Property taxes might be a bit cheaper, but we'd quickly make up the difference in gas money.  Further, I'm not NEOhio is where I'd pick to settle anyway.  Would prefer a lower population-density area, but then there are no jobs in those areas (at least none for people with my skillset - engineer, employment tends to be focused on pockets throughout the country where industry is located).  The only good solution I can think of is to hit the lottery.  I can then execute operation "endless Saturday".  For the long-term, I want to make sure my kids know how to produce some of their own food, how to heat with wood, lots of hands-on tangible skills.  I will encourage them towards professions which are more geographically independent - seems to me a tax accountant or pharmacist would have more greater geographic flexibility.

Cluttermagnet-I enjoyed reading the Nearing's book too.  I found it humorous that they wound up leaving Vermont b/c they found they just couldn't build the kind of community with neighbors that they wanted to (those flat-landahs).  There work day philosophy was interesting too - something like 4 hours of work for the homestead to produce income, 4 hours to improvements on the homestead or work in the community, and 4 hours for personal time - art, music, reading, etc.  Sounds like a nice split, eh?  Regarding your firewood situation, free wood is the best kind!  Your fond memories of gardening gives me some hope for my kids.  I try to get them as involved as possible - they help plant seeds and grow the seedlings, set them out, harvest.  We grew potatoes for the first time which they thought was awesome.  They helped plant, then when harvest time came I turned over the plants and they took turns digging for the tubers - amazed that they could get 4 or 5 tubers from a plant that grew from just a section of a seed potato.  They got to see the whole process - how to plant, tend, harvest, store, then eat.


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## timfromohio

One more point I tend to overlook regarding the desire for more land - reality  Truth be told, we have yet to really tap into the potential of the 1.78 acres we have.  Not sure where the time would come from to manage more.  Oh well, it's still fund to fantasize about ...


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## SolarAndWood

I'm with you on that Tim.  It will be a long time before we are feeling constrained by our 1.55 acre lot.  In the meantime, we have a 4 mile commute and a city full of hardwoods that are a quick and easy scrounge away.  Who needs 20 acres of woods for fuel when I have already brought 3 cords home this week and have another cord to pick up this afternoon.


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## Hakusan

Most reading I have done suggests somewhere between 5 and 10 acres will give enough wood to last a lifetime. That depends on the ability of the forest to regenerate itself (latitude, soil condition, tree species, etc) and how much you are cutting off (read: heating efficiency of the home). The other number I read suggests wood growth per acre is 1/3 to 1/2 a cord in unmanaged woodland. There may be methods to live on a smaller lot. The Europeans used copicing to provide a continuous source of firewood.


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## jebatty

A budget is a real key to making any new life work. A few hints, which may or may not meet expectations. Clothing needs easily are met by garage sales and second had stores. I live in a rural area 12 miles from the nearest town. A local second hand store meets all of my clothing needs. In fact, for $10 you can fill a whole paper grocery bag with whatever you can stuff into it. I hardly remember buying new clothes. Last year I spent less than $100 on my clothing, including shoes. Some years I have been less than $50.

Food can work out well too. A co-op 20 miles away meets all of our flour, oatmeal, dry fruits, nuts, spices, dry milk (cooking), and cheese needs. As members ($5/yr), we buy at cost + 10%. If I volunteer to work at least 1 day a month, cost + 5%. Hunting (venison) has replaced beef in our household, plus some fishing, a few grouse, and more if a person is interested. All spare time, even recreational, activities. 

I rarely buy any lumber, nearly all needs met from trees on our land. I just head to the lumber storage shed and pick a board(s) I need (rough sawn), edge and plane as needed. Much else of what is needed I buy from internet resources. Internet: almost all of the plumbing fittings, circ, etc., to install the Tarm gasification boiler, electronics as needed, and most everything you don't have to try on for fit. And UPS delivers in about 3 days, no gas for travel or shopping, and no wasted time. For example, my computer power supply blew up two weeks ago on a Saturday, I ordered a new power supply over the net on Sunday morning for $25 incl shipping, delivered on Thurs, and the computer was back in operation. 

My coffee, beans purchased at the co-op and ground at home, fresh brewed every morning, will match any *arbucks brew for a fraction of the price. A good drink made from sumac berries, with a shot of vodka, gin or rum, hardly can be beat. Chokecherries fresh picked, or juneberries, raspberries, all wild, in season, are a delight. Hazel nuts picked in fall. Won't supply full food needs by far, but fabulous treats.

Getting together with neighbors for games on a cold winter night, probably something you might only have read about, are favorites. All potluck, of course, expense for really fun parties is really small. 

I've only touched on a few things. The list is long. There is plenty of quality of life to be enjoyed if a person is willing to free him/her self from over-civilization.


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## BucksCoBernie

jebatty said:
			
		

> A budget is a real key to making any new life work. A few hints, which may or may not meet expectations. Clothing needs easily are met by garage sales and second had stores. I live in a rural area 12 miles from the nearest town. A local second hand store meets all of my clothing needs. In fact, for $10 you can fill a whole paper grocery bag with whatever you can stuff into it. I hardly remember buying new clothes. Last year I spent less than $100 on my clothing, including shoes. Some years I have been less than $50.
> 
> Food can work out well too. A co-op 20 miles away meets all of our flour, oatmeal, dry fruits, nuts, spices, dry milk (cooking), and cheese needs. As members ($5/yr), we buy at cost + 10%. If I volunteer to work at least 1 day a month, cost + 5%. Hunting (venison) has replaced beef in our household, plus some fishing, a few grouse, and more if a person is interested. All spare time, even recreational, activities.
> 
> I rarely buy any lumber, nearly all needs met from trees on our land. I just head to the lumber storage shed and pick a board(s) I need (rough sawn), edge and plane as needed. Much else of what is needed I buy from internet resources. Internet: almost all of the plumbing fittings, circ, etc., to install the Tarm gasification boiler, electronics as needed, and most everything you don't have to try on for fit. And UPS delivers in about 3 days, no gas for travel or shopping, and no wasted time. For example, my computer power supply blew up two weeks ago on a Saturday, I ordered a new power supply over the net on Sunday morning for $25 incl shipping, delivered on Thurs, and the computer was back in operation.
> 
> My coffee, beans purchased at the co-op and ground at home, fresh brewed every morning, will match any *arbucks brew for a fraction of the price. A good drink made from sumac berries, with a shot of vodka, gin or rum, hardly can be beat. Chokecherries fresh picked, or juneberries, raspberries, all wild, in season, are a delight. Hazel nuts picked in fall. Won't supply full food needs by far, but fabulous treats.
> 
> Getting together with neighbors for games on a cold winter night, probably something you might only have read about, are favorites. All potluck, of course, expense for really fun parties is really small.
> 
> I've only touched on a few things. The list is long. There is plenty of quality of life to be enjoyed if a person is willing to free him/her self from over-civilization.



Nicely said! I gotta find me some sumac berries and try that with gin. 

Anyone catch Renovation Nation when the host visited a farm in NH (i think). They felled a tree with a 2 person saw, had oxen pull it out to the dirt road where it was loaded up onto a sled pulled by 2 horses. The horses took it to a lake, they dumped the logs into the water where it floated up stream to the farm's sawmill. The saw was powered by the water in the lake. The sawmill was built in the 1830s with the current saw setup going back to 1891. They cut some 8x8 timbers for a barn. It was awesome. 

Here's a pic of the peppers i picked this morning. some bell, jalapeno, and cayenne. I just finished making some hot pepper jelly. first time making anything like that...im hoping it turns out fine.


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## timfromohio

BucksCoBernie - those are some fine looking peppers!  Keep us posted on the jelly.  My wife made a bunch of strawberry freezer jam - anthing made at home beats store stuff. 

JeBatty-I hear you on the second hand stores.  My wife is a regular at garage sales and the local goodwill, especially for our kids.  They grow out of things quickly which makes buying new stuff seem silly.  Plus, I have two boys - constant adventure, rough-housing, etc.  Most clothes have been designated "play clothes", ie-outside adventure approved.  I like your suggestions of getting together with neighbors too - cold winter night ... by the stove!

SolarAndWood - 4 miles is incredible!  Is there a lot of traffic - can you ride a bike?  Being close does have its benefits.  The woodlot idea is romantic in a sense, but probably a lot more work than what we do as scroungers.  I've been fortunate enough to get quite a few loads from a tree service this year.  The tree guy is very happy to give me the wood as he doesn't have to haul/dispose of it, and all do is show up to a stack of wood already cut to length.  A true "win-win".


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## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> SolarAndWood - 4 miles is incredible!  Is there a lot of traffic - can you ride a bike?  Being close does have its benefits.  The woodlot idea is romantic in a sense, but probably a lot more work than what we do as scroungers.  I've been fortunate enough to get quite a few loads from a tree service this year.  The tree guy is very happy to give me the wood as he doesn't have to haul/dispose of it, and all do is show up to a stack of wood already cut to length.  A true "win-win".



We are in the country and don't have much traffic.  I think this has happened largely because of topography.  We are 6 or 700 ft above downtown.  Most of the development went north which is very flat and easy to bulldoze.  My wife does all her training rides out the driveway.  Except the ones that call for flat rides.  

I have a similar deal going with a tree guy.  I brought home 4 loads this week better than a cord each of ready to split rounds.  Each trip takes me about an hour and a half and is 9 miles roundtrip.


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## jebatty

Pick and rinse the sumac berries in fall when they are bright red. Then boil and mash, strain (lots of little hairy fibers), sweeten to taste and add whatever you want (if nothing, a lot like pink lemonade). Guests will wonder what you used for the drink.


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## DBoon

Getting back to the original topic (sorry - I've enjoyed reading all of the posts!)....

My wife and I are originally from upstate NY and the midwest.  We've lived in a NYC bedroom community for 20+ years now, but never bought into the lifestyle.  A few years ago, we bought an old house in the village she grew up in, and are gradually transitioning to "phase 2" of our lives.  Phase 1 = save everything you can, and live simply.  Phase 2 - finish the mortgage payoff, accumulate cash, transition to a more rural life.  Phase 3 - take over the family farm when her father is no longer of this earth.  

So far so good.  The first 20 years were tough, but it's going fast now.  I look forward to the full Phase 3.  

This posts reminds me (again) why we are doing what we are.  Others have the same thoughts.


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## timfromohio

DBoon - excellent post and good plan.  Will your rural life be in NY?  How many acres will your homestead consist of?  Like I indicated in other posts - we have yet to make full use of our whopping 1.78 acres, but I still enjoy hearing about what others do on larger farms/homesteads and how they got there.


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## DBoon

Right now, small home in a village - 1/4 acre lot.  My wife is hear 2/3 of the year, and I am here on weekends and holidays/vacations.  About 1000 square feet of garden, and small wood stove.  

Future - 50+ acres and medium size house just outside of the same village (walking distance).  Half wood lot, half fields, from a river to a peak.  Nice combination of a little bit of everything.


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## Flatbedford

You can have 50 acres and still be walking distance from the village? Small village or fast walker?


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## DBoon

That's the advantage of upstate NY versus Westchester County, NY!  There are people here with 10 acres and in the village.


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## Dune

What a great thread; thanks Jebatty.


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## Fi-Q

I feel like I will never have enough land..... 

When I was 22, on my first real job out of college, the first thing I bought was a 20 acres piece of land with my brother. 

Most of my friends where bying cars - trucks - ski-doo's... toys.... Me, I kept the old dodge worn out mini van I had in college and bought my first piece of land. Some people were thinking I was crazy. I was working in Ottawa back then, wich was 1000 miles from home. Some co-workers where wondering why the heck I was bying land out there.

   I switch job since.... hitting the road evrywhere in North America.....

 Through the year, I'm up to close to 80 acres now some of it is 50% own with my brother and some is mine. And it's creating 1 big chunk of land, difrent lot #, but it's all touching. Now, I'm building my retirement project  (I'm only 27). It's a cape cod style house. I don't know when it will be finished, I'm working on the road and I'm not home to often, so that's why I'm calling it my retirement project.... (eventually it will have solar, wind mill, boiler, lister veggy oil generator, huge root cellar, a shop, a barn, ect...)

   For now I have 1 x full hook-up 50 amp rv parking lot close by the house where I put my rv (I've been a rv full-timer for the last 5 year) and the basement of the house should be roughly finished so me, my wife, my dog and my 6 month brand new baby girl will have a warm place with the stirct minimum to make it through the winter if we happen to be unemployed for the cold season(It would be too cold for the rv)

  So now, most of the guys that were thinking I was crazy back then are stunt to see the mansion I will end up with........ and by the way I haven't bought any toys yet.....

  But, coming back to land, seems like I will never have enough, I'm dealing with the guys that own the 20 cares beside my trout pound to get is piece of dirt... let see what will happen.... and I'm starting too look for 100 acres of wood about 10 miles from home.... that would be for my Lumber jack career to make some money the day I will quit the road.

The picture you see have been taken last week. Now, my general contractor is done. The house is protected from the element.... I just don't know when ( 2 to 20 year) it will be totally finished.


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## timfromohio

Fi-Q - nice pics and sweet house.  You have a good plan.


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## jebatty

Ten acres probably is not enough to grow trees to produce your own lumber and firewood, but a wood lot can produce some fine lumber. Last summer we had a forest fire on our property which, fortunately, quickly was brought under control. I waited to this year to see which trees would green up, and then a few weeks ago I took down the trees which did not survive the fire. Most were only good for firewood, but about 40 looked good enough for some fine lumber. These were all white pine. I finished sawing with my Woodmizer on Wednesday of last week, and here are a few pix of the end result - about 3500 board feet. I cut some 2-1/2" thick and the rest 1" thick. The thicker ones will make some nice table tops and benches, and the 1" will make trim and paneling, plus also good for flooring. We have 18" wide white pine floors in three rooms in our house.

The first pix is 2500 board feet of 10 and 12 foot lengths which will air dry. Pix 2 and 3 are of my solar dry kiln which is loaded with 1000 board feet of 8 foot length. And pix 4 is a shot of the woodshed for my shop, 20' x 10' x stack 5-1/2' high. It holds about 10 cords -- and is full. 

I still have all the slab wood from the logs to cut up for firewood for next year.


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## Fi-Q

Jim, too bad tou'Re not in Quebec, I would buy you some pine for all my trim & base board....

Nice pile of wood!


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## SolarAndWood

My father in law passed away Labor day weekend.  Over the past few weeks I have been cleaning up the property to prepare it for sale.  It is just over 6 flat acres with 3 acres of orchard.  The orchard has a variety of apples and pears.  There is only half an acre or so of woods at the back of the property.  If there were an additional 4 acres of woods back there for btus and the 2 acre field was turned into a vegetable garden, one could probably get by and cover the carrying costs of the property by selling fruit and vegetables.

This thread came to mind during the many hours of pruning and brush hogging an orchard that hasn't been touched in 15 years.


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## timfromohio

SolarAndWood - sorry to hear about your father-in-law.  Is his place near yours?  Sounds like a nice property.


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## SolarAndWood

Thanks for your kindness Tim.  It is a beautiful property about 45 minutes from us.  It sits on top of a hill in an old town with a small liberal arts college.  If my wife and I didn't have such an ideal location minutes away from our jobs in downtown Syracuse, I would seriously consider it.  It also has great southern exposure with a roof calling out for solar panels and a 4 car garage with a 10 cord shed on the back of it.


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## jebatty

I join in sharing the grief from the passing of your father-in-law. Could this be an opportunity to seize hold of a new life for you?


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## SolarAndWood

Thank you Jim.  It is probably a little too early in the game for us.  My wife and I will be paying for grad school for another few years and are in the earning phase of life.  Our current setup is pretty ideal.  4 miles from downtown, so trivial drive to work and yet we live in a rural setting and a 20 mile view makes our acre and a half feel a lot bigger.    We have enough room for firewood processing, vegetables, fruits and herbs.  No woodlot but I think city scrounging is easier than dropping/winching/skidding/blocking anway. A small orchard and hops are next on the list.  The balance works pretty well for us and our two girls are growing up knowing where food and heat comes from.


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## timfromohio

SolarandWood - sounds like your father-in-law had a great homestead, but one has to balance the activities you want to engage in with the time spent traveling to/from work and general proximity to ammenities, especially if you have kids.


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## SolarAndWood

He definitely did Tim.  It is too bad for us that it is where it is.  Hopefully future owners will put it to good use.


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## Gooserider

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Thank you Jim.  It is probably a little too early in the game for us.  My wife and I will be paying for grad school for another few years and are in the earning phase of life.  Our current setup is pretty ideal.  4 miles from downtown, so trivial drive to work and yet we live in a rural setting and a 20 mile view makes our acre and a half feel a lot bigger.    We have enough room for firewood processing, vegetables, fruits and herbs.  No woodlot but I think city scrounging is easier than dropping/winching/skidding/blocking anway. A small orchard and hops are next on the list.  The balance works pretty well for us and our two girls are growing up knowing where food and heat comes from.



Just as a thought, and I know it can involve it's own set of headaches, but have you thought about trying to rent out the property?  Sounds like the kind of place that would be ideal for you later in life and that you might want to hang onto so that you could move there at some later time.  If you can get enough rental to take care of taxes and upkeep, that might let you keep it in the family.

Gooserider


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## jebatty

Rental is a great idea. When we bought our property (not 10 ac, but an original 160 ac homestead), it was located away from where we live and had a house, garage, barn, big machine shed, and some outbuildings. We looked at the house/garage and buildings as a big PIA, but they have turned into the best thing ever. It has been 12 years now, and the house/garage has been rented continuously, with no more than 2 mos rent missed in tenant changeover. We've been fortunate to have excellent tenants. We also are very reasonable, likely a little below market, on rent, depend on word-of-mouth to find tenants, and not a single month's rent has been missed due to non-payment. We also found a marine dealer to rent the big machine shed (55' x 100'), and the dealer uses it for boat storage. Another source of income. The rent pays the taxes on the entire 160 ac and all of the expenses, plus depreciation tax benefit, with money left over. The barn is now my wood-working shop, and the other out buildings have been good for misc storage purposes. I even put up another 45' x 40' building for the equipment I accumulated, as the machine shed was not available due to rental. The excess money from rent has paid for everything.


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## jebatty

Need to add: the land provides all the wood we need for heat, both for our house and the shop. Also provides garden space; hunting land for deer and grouse; recreation for walking, snow-shoeing, cross-country skiing, and plenty of fallen logs over ponds, wetlands and meadows for some serious contemplation of the most enjoyable sort.

The wood for heat likely saves us $3000-4000/year in heating bills; plus has provided lumber for one house addition, many improvement projects, and some sold to local carpenters. We also sell some stovewood, as excess is available. 

The outcome has been much better than we ever anticipated.


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## SolarAndWood

Great food for thought Jim and Goose.  I'll have plenty of time today to ponder it while I trim up the last 200 trees and get it brush hogged.  Its too bad dwarf trees produce such small diameter wood.  I've pushed a lot of BTUs over the bank cleaning the orchard that weren't worth dealing with.


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## SolarAndWood

Thanks again for this thread Jim.  After thinking about this for another couple of weeks while getting the property ready for the market, 10 acres is definitely enough, it just needs to be the right 10 acres economically and for the way you want to live.  Also, once you get away from needing your own woodlot and animals, an acre and a half is enough.  It is amazing how much food you can harvest from an 8000 sq ft garden and a small city provides more than enough firewood.


----------



## timfromohio

SolarAndWood - you're absolutely correct, but it's still fun to dream about a big spread ...

Were you able to harvest any firewood from you in-law's property?  

BTW - I was in your neck of the woods a couple of weeks ago - had to make a short trip to Rome.  Pretty area - the leaves were looking very nice.


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## Gooserider

The problem w/ relying on "small city" to provide firewood is that it only works as long as the number of people wanting the wood is low enough...  Think of us burners as "wood predators" and a given area can only support as many predators as there is "food supply" for...  If you have your own wood lot, this issue goes away as long as you are properly territorial and keep your "territory" properly marked...

Gooserider


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## SolarAndWood

Tim, I'm all for the big spread as long as it is the right one.  His property was in the country 20 years ago.  Now, it has high property taxes, neighbors all the way around with big houses and a lot of traffic.  It has enough acreage to make it work but not enough to keep the world out.  More importantly, I have an addiction to over the horizon sailing and his property is in the wrong direction from Lake Ontario.  There are some pretty affordable tracts of land North of Syracuse that also have good deep water harbors nearby.  They also have great wind potential and a bunch of wind farms have already been built up there.  The downside is big snow accumulation off the lake that never freezes.

I produced a couple cord cleaning up the property.  Although, I didn't mess with the apple because I didn't have the time and the PIA/BTU ratio is way too high.  I did inventory the back of the property and there is about 70 or 80 cord of easily harvested straight firewood.  We'll see how things go but I have pretty easy access to wood and am a few years ahead.  That would require leaving my tractor there and hauling firewood 45 minutes.


----------



## SolarAndWood

Goose, I don't like to admit it, but I suppose I am a wood predator.  I have a strong belief in the laziness of urban populations going forward and our city is full of mature trees.  And, I've found that I can scrounge a cord of wood from the city a lot faster than I can produce one from the woods even on our own property.


----------



## Flatbedford

There are many Scrounging predators out there. Its much easier to let somebody else make the kill.


----------



## timfromohio

I have a fantastic situation right now with scrounging.  One day on the way home from work I passed a tree service working - small crew, just two guys.  I stopped (always stop) and asked what they had planned for the wood.  The lead guy said I could have it if I wanted it.  He no longer deals in firewood and was thrilled that I would take it - otherwise he had to load it, haul it, and dump it.  We exchanged information and he calls me when he's working either close to my home or my work.  I got 70% of my wood this year from him.  He's happy as can be that he doesn't have to deal with the wood, and I'm happy as can be that I'm getting free wood already cut to length!  A couple of times he had so much that I was able to bring along another woodburner from work and we both loaded up our trucks.  Needless to say, there will be a Christmas gift card and some fine brew headed his way before the holidays ...


----------



## timfromohio

SolarandWood - the problem with land like we are discussing is the same all over the country.  Areas with flat growth rates, where you could buy land and expect relatively little change with property taxes or urbanization, have very little to offer in the way of employment.  So, you're stuck driving huge distances in which case you'd have no time left to do anyting on your homestead except on weekends, or you settle for a lot less land and then set out to see how much you can do on it like we both seem to be trying to do.

From pics of seen, the area you describe north of Syracuse looks very nice and I'm sure the coastline is beautiful.  That snow on the other hand ...


----------



## SolarAndWood

I don't think I've settled at all and from the pics of your place I don't think you have either.  My wife drives 4 miles to work and I drive 6.  It is going to take something pretty compelling to ever get us to move.  Something like one of the 100+ acre post peak farms a few miles down the road.  Just need to make the move before the economy gets back in gear and they make subdivisions out of them.


----------



## jebatty

I suppose many of us would like to have our cake and eat it too, that is, a high paying job, inexpensive land, low real estate and other taxes, low living costs, all in the same place. But that combo produces high demand for the jobs, increase in population, land prices rising, increasing demand for services, and taxes and prices going up. 

The key to "Ten Acres Is Enough" working is pretty much summed up in one word, "sustainability," a word and life style mouthed by many but practiced by few. Seems to me that everyone who choose not to live sustainably likely is eating the chops of someone else or is taking from the future. Not a good scenario for the other person or for future generations.

The move my wife and I made in 1997 from Minneapolis-St. Paul to north central MN was a choice for a radical change in lifestyle, tremendous reduction in consumption, giving up many necessities that in reality were only conveniences, and living well, perhaps even better than before, on a 2/3's drop in income. We are by no means living the sustainable life, but we are a little, maybe a lot, closer than before, and getting closer all the time (yet far in the distance, given that the bottom 85% of the world's population lives on less than $6/day per individual). Rich List

We are physically more active, eat better, grow more and more of our own food, harvest more of our protein from game and from fish from local lakes, are far more carbon neutral in that almost all of our heat is from wood, make most of our furniture from wood from our trees, when we have to buy usually shop garage sales or second hand shops, significantly reduced our electric usage, volunteer extensively to local service organizations, and still maintain charitable giving in the 10%+ range. Yes, we have income from assets accumulated while we lived the city life, but we did that by also living far under our then means. 

A quick and simple example: had neighbors over for dinner earlier this week. Menu was roast venison (which I harvested and processed myself), squash from our garden, potatoes (bought these, not raising potatoes yet), and ice cream with wild cherry topping (picked the cherries myself). The neighbors brought a bottle of wine, and we had a dinner that probably would have been $50/person in the city, but our cost was about $15 total, and most of that cost was the wine, which was not a vintage a wine steward would recognize.

It's all a matter of choices, although most people refuse to recognize or admit their life style is a choice, not a necessity. My wife and I would never go back to where we were. We continue to make choices to simplify and live even more abundantly.


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## timfromohio

jebatty - what time is dinner normally served at your place ?

SolarandWood - "compromise" is probably a better word than settle.  As jebatty said, I would like to have my cake and eat it too - low cost of living, some convenience, and a good job.  Had to find the compromise between proximity, convenience, space, and cost.  Very complex equation.  We're are located ridiculously close to all manner of ammenities - could easily ride a bike if it were not for traffic-related safety concerns.  Most of these I could care less about with the exception of medical facilities, food stores, and places like Lowes/HD.  The thought of living out and driving an hour for these services seems crazy and while I'm certainly not counting my carbon credits all of the time it seems to me we're being better stewards by participating in a very local economy and not driving those extended distances.  The only way I feel like I've truly settled is in regards to the regulations imposed by my township.  While it's a historic farming community, I'm technically supposed to have over 2.5 acres to have any "non-pet" animals.  I want chickens, laying hens to be more precise.  No rooster.  Just hens.  Technically, even though we have almost 2 acres, which is more than enough space, I'm not supposed to have them.  Seems ridiculous to me and I plan on pushing the limits of "pet" next spring ...  I'm hoping if I give my neighbors some eggs nobody will care.  Bees might come later if I can get away with chickens.  

One thing that my situation has taught me is to carefully consider geographic flexibility when picking a line of work.  I gave no thought to this at all.  I will strongly encourage my sons to take this into account so that they can create options for themselves.  I basically need to be near a large industrial base and am in a somewhat specialized field.  I'm geographically restricted.  Had I chosen to be a CPA or pharmacist I could get a decent job nearly anywhere.  Then I might have the option of living in a smaller town and having a decent job - remember, death and taxes are certainties and people everywhere have to deal with them!


----------



## kenny chaos

timfromohio said:
			
		

> One thing that my situation has taught me is to carefully consider geographic flexibility when picking a line of work.  I gave no thought to this at all.  I will strongly encourage my sons to take this into account so that they can create options for themselves.  I basically need to be near a large industrial base and am in a somewhat specialized field.  I'm geographically restricted.  Had I chosen to be a CPA or pharmacist I could get a decent job nearly anywhere.  Then I might have the option of living in a smaller town and having a decent job - remember, death and taxes are certainties and people everywhere have to deal with them!





What's wrong with commuting?
We have a beautiful old stone house and barns on 108 acres with 80 tillable
and 20 in woods.  It backs up to the Erie Canal and there's a one acre pond.
We're 30 minutes from Rochester and 45 minutes from Buffalo.
Nearest hospital is 15 minutes away and the nearest Lowes is 20 minutes.
We can't see a neighbor from the front porch.
Everybody out here is not a CPA or pharmacist.
I can't comprehend your self-imposed "geographical restrictions" 
but I do realize that the grass is not always greener.


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## SolarAndWood

Kenny, you've got it made.  Those stone houses you find in the canal corridor are beautiful and then there is that big body of fresh water 10 mins away.  The thing I never got until I started traveling for work is how good we have it in upstate NY.  I'll take some lake effect over traffic any day of the week.


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## kenny chaos

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> Kenny, you've got it made.  Those stone houses you find in the canal corridor are beautiful and then there is that big body of fresh water 10 mins away.  The thing I never got until I started traveling for work is how good we have it in upstate NY.  I'll take some lake effect over traffic any day of the week.





Yes, it sounds like we have it made but I'm not a big bread winner
so we sacrifice a lot, or maybe not.  I always wish I had more.
Matter of priorities.
Good-day Sir.


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## Gooserider

timfromohio said:
			
		

> The only way I feel like I've truly settled is in regards to the regulations imposed by my township.  While it's a historic farming community, I'm technically supposed to have over 2.5 acres to have any "non-pet" animals.  I want chickens, laying hens to be more precise.  No rooster.  Just hens.  Technically, even though we have almost 2 acres, which is more than enough space, I'm not supposed to have them.  Seems ridiculous to me and I plan on pushing the limits of "pet" next spring ...  I'm hoping if I give my neighbors some eggs nobody will care.  Bees might come later if I can get away with chickens.



Tim, I may be biased as a beekeeper myself, but I think you would find the bees would be FAR easier to get away with than chickens...  I'm keeping mine on a bit over an acre, but my supply lady has customers that keep them on their rooftops and balconies in downtown Cambridge and Boston... 

Beehives are small and fairly discrete, and don't make attention drawing noises...  Honeybees are also protected in most places because of their being pollinators.  Since the bees in a hive are actually indistinguishable and interchangeable with the feral variety, you are essentially putting up the equivalent of a fancy birdhouse, and acting as a landlord...  My supply lady says there aren't ANY places she knows of that have restrictions on keeping them, though in many places you are supposed to register as a beekeeper, and agree to allow occasional inspections by a gov't hive inspector (for disease control purposes)...

Of course registering can be a good deal in some ways, if you let your local emergency service types know that you are interested, they will put you on a list of people to be called if they have an issue with bees involved such as swarms and such - can be a decent way to get FREE bees....

Gooserider


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## timfromohio

Gooserider - I'll think about bees first - thanks for your thoughts.  It seems as though they would require a bit less work than chickens, but probably more expertise required before startup.  Do you have trouble with the local wildlife harassing your hives?  We have loads of raccoons, opssosums, and are currently enduring a skunk infestation.  I have eliminated 3 in the past 3 weeks tearing up my yard and garden, and got 5 last year.  Neighbor across the street got 2.  

Kenny - free time is the most precious commodity I have.  I could easily have a larger spread but would be further out, and I would have to spend more time in the car to/from work, etc.  While having more land would enable me to do more, I'd have less time in which to accomplish those things I'd want to do.  There's nothing wrong with communting if you don't mind spending more money on gas and a larger fraction of your free time in the car.  

My geographical restrictions are purely work-based.  I'm a materials research engineer and spent close a decade of my life in school to achieve educational goals.  The pro's of this route were/are that it enabled me to get a pretty good job straight out of grad school that paid well and had excellent benefits.  I've changed jobs once since that time and was able to get an even better gig work-wise.  The downside, is that there are concentrated pockets throughout the country where I can work, mostly centered around industrial bases.  If you go down the road I have you tend to get further siloed into a particular niche as well, so the longer time you spend in a specific industry the harder it is to make a switch - this limits you even further.  I have friends who have spent the last 15 years in the semiconductor industry - they'd be hard pressed to get a job with an aerospace company, and vice versa - at least working as an engineer.  Manager, that's another matter but to hardcore engineers becoming a manager is akin to joining the dark side of the force.

I guess when I look at the time I invested in school and the options it generated for me (which are pretty good minus the geographic restrictions) I tend to think what I might have done differently - that's what led me to pharmacy or CPA.  You could be a CPA out of your home and work primarily in tax season - my neighbor did this.  Made a nice living and had ample free time for other pursuits.  Pharmacy was another top choice simple b/c you can go to a 6 year pharmacy program and at the end of it have a Ph.D. in pharmacy and a six figure job waiting for you with reasonable hours, a signing bonus if you go with a big hospital or phar. firm, and the ability to get a job almost anywhere if you work at the corner pharmacy.  That's a sweet deal.  It's all about generating options in my mind - I figured those two careers would give you the most in terms of where you live, personal time, and geographic flexibility.    

All that said, your setup sounds pretty sweet.  I'd love a stone house - the ultimate low-maintenance exterior and ballistically sound to boot!  Your commute doesn't sound all that bad either - if I could find that around here, I'd have gone for it.  I guess the problem here (we're in the Cleveland-Akron area) is that Cleveland is a very spread-out city.  The actually downtown area is not all that big, but there are many town/suburb areas.  Lots of sprawl.  My ideal location would be either further south and a bit west of where I am now into Amish country - beautiful land, or east of Cleveland proper into Lake county which is probably similar to your area, complete with ridiculous lake-effect snow.  However, I'd be driving a minimum of an hour each way from either of those locations and that's in ideal traffic and weather conditions.


----------



## Gooserider

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Gooserider - I'll think about bees first - thanks for your thoughts.  It seems as though they would require a bit less work than chickens, but probably more expertise required before startup.  Do you have trouble with the local wildlife harassing your hives?  We have loads of raccoons, opssosums, and are currently enduring a skunk infestation.  I have eliminated 3 in the past 3 weeks tearing up my yard and garden, and got 5 last year.  Neighbor across the street got 2.


Bees are a LOT less work than chickens, I don't think you will find any sort of "animal husbandry" project that takes less time and work...  From spring to fall when the bees are active, I probably do something on average once or twice a month, takes me perhaps an hour at a time - usually takes me longer to get the gear out, fire up the smoker and so forth than it does for me to actually do the work in the hive...  Harvesting the honey is the only big time consumer, takes a few hours to spin out all the frames, depending on how big a spinner you have.

Startup costs are pretty high, figure about $200 / hive for the wood and wax, $200 or so for personal gear and tools, and $80 / package for the bees themselves - You can cut that some by making your own stuff, but it can be a challenge to do some of it...  I'd say it is easy to build the hive boxes, but would purchase the frames...  Once you've started, as long as the colony doesn't die (which some do) the only real expense is maybe a few bags of sugar, for spring feeding, and possibly some medications...  Probably the toughest "big ticket" item to deal with is the honey extractor, which can be VERY expensive depending on how large, and the type of unit you get, but they can often be rented or borrowed, so that can be avoided to some degree, and again it's a one time expense.

Small bee predators like skunks and such are relatively easy to deal with - for instance you stop skunks just by elevating the hives a bit.  Bears can be a MAJOR problem however, as it takes a lot more to discourage them.

What I would suggest is finding a local bee supply place, and / or your local beekeepers association, and take a beekeeping class, as well as reading a few books and or looking at websites.  The class is useful mostly for the "local conditions" type knowledge...  This is the time of year to get started if you want to do it, as it takes a while to get all the stuff together and you want to be ready to get your bees and start the hive working as early in the spring as possible...  (Also note that you probably won't get much, if any, honey the first year, as the bees will spend most of their time building the honeycombs they need for storage, these get recycled so that you get more in later years when they don't have to spend their efforts on building wax...)



> Kenny - free time is the most precious commodity I have.  I could easily have a larger spread but would be further out, and I would have to spend more time in the car to/from work, etc.  While having more land would enable me to do more, I'd have less time in which to accomplish those things I'd want to do.  There's nothing wrong with communting if you don't mind spending more money on gas and a larger fraction of your free time in the car.



Agreed...  Long commutes are a really painful thing.  Only thing worse than having to do a commute in your car though is doing it via mass transit...



> I guess when I look at the time I invested in school and the options it generated for me (which are pretty good minus the geographic restrictions) I tend to think what I might have done differently - that's what led me to pharmacy or CPA.  You could be a CPA out of your home and work primarily in tax season - my neighbor did this.  Made a nice living and had ample free time for other pursuits.  Pharmacy was another top choice simple b/c you can go to a 6 year pharmacy program and at the end of it have a Ph.D. in pharmacy and a six figure job waiting for you with reasonable hours, a signing bonus if you go with a big hospital or phar. firm, and the ability to get a job almost anywhere if you work at the corner pharmacy.  That's a sweet deal.  It's all about generating options in my mind - I figured those two careers would give you the most in terms of where you live, personal time, and geographic flexibility.


Almost any sort of specialized skill (as in requires a degree / certification) in the medical field is highly portable, and relatively predictable demand...  Next on my lists of reliable carreers is specialties in the construction trades, or other "hands-on" skills - your plumber can't be "off-shored"...  Again look for stable demand and limited entry...  If you can get REALLY good, open-source software engineer can also be good as you can live anywhere that has a broadband connection...

Gooserider


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## timfromohio

Gooserider - thanks for the additional advice on bees - I did look some information up on line and there is a NEOhio beekeeping association.  I might check them out.  I also agree with you 100% on hands-on skills.  I grew up with absolutely zero of these and have had to learn the hard way - by myself making lots of mistakes.  I am going to make sure my sons grow up having a very broad experience base and would certainly encourage any type of work where you can be your own boss and practice it wherever you like - plumbers, electricians, well installation guys - needed everywhere and there is substitute.


----------



## SE Iowa

Interesting conversation.  I graduated pharmacy school when it was cheap in 1994 and almost completed my Ph.D in pharmaceutics.  For the record the 6 year pharmacy program ends with what is called a Pharm D. not a Ph. D.  It now cost about $20K per year which is similar to all the other "professional" schools such as Dentistry, PT, Med School.  Most of the students I work with (I work in a Univ town) have at least $100k worth of student loans when they graduate.
   I quit grad school in my 5th year to marry my wife so that we could stay in the midwest and hopefully have a farm.  I now work 3 days a week as a pharmacist and farm 430 acres of corn/soybeans with a little hay and 44 feeder calves.   I have chickens inclosed in a dog kennel (one way to get around the "pet" thing) providing eggs.  We butcher ruptured hogs for pork, hunt deer, turkey, ducks, geese and pheasants as well as buy 4-H cows every August.  We grow a small garden.  Everyone makes fun of me wondering why I would forsake a $100/yr  job to farm for less money.  I have found that the old cliche is true; money does not make you happy.  I can have the worst day on the farm and work 16 hours and still be up-beat and be looking for the next.  Eight hours in a pharmacy just the opposite.  I come home bored, tired and irritable.


----------



## timfromohio

SE Iowa - alright, some real knowledge here on the pharmacy option!  I had thought a pharm d. was equivalent to an advanced pharmacy degree.  As far as cost goes, in-state tuition to any big school including room & board will run at least $10k, so $20k while expensive doesn't seem that bad - I still have a lot of saving to do for my kids though ....

What's a "ruptured" hog?  We buy pastured beef and pork from a local farmer and would never go back to conventionally-raised meat.  Taste difference is amazing and it's very cost-effective.

You are a great example of career flexibility in action.  You have the option of a higher paying job if you did the pharmacy gig full time, but right now it affords you the flexibility to farm.  Do you think that it's as geographically friendly a job as I envision?


----------



## SE Iowa

Yeah, A Pharm D. is entry level now. Now most pharmacy Schools are 2-4, which means 2 years (at least) of prerequisite then apply to get in to 4 years of pharmacy school. This allowed for more clinical rotations and clinical classroom work. Essentially there was a year without a graduating class, which along with greater prescription volume from an aging population, has caused an extreme shortage of R.Ph's in the US. The other MAJOR contributor to the shortage is that of the new grads >70% are women (not that that is bad!). With the shortage these women (and in my case a man) are able to work part time for lots of $ and basically name their hours. Really, it is in my opinion one of the top 3 jobs for women, especially younger women. By the way, the tuition is usually $14-17K per year for in-state and $25-27k/year out of state which is where I got an average of $20k/yr. You'd have to add on room and board after that.
A ruptured hog: Pigs have enormous growth rates and often they slip and "do the splits". Their visceral muscles (bacon meat) of the belly can not hold the "guts" and so they tear when they fall down or get trampled by another hog. Basically it is a hernia in the belly region. Note that the guts do not rip out but there is usually a small bulge anywhere from a 50 cent size to a basket ball. They still will grow normally but pigs are not nice to other pigs. If they see a weakness they will try to "fed" on that other pig. The hog farmer has 2 options with these pigs. If they are less than 100lbs we just destroy them (its not worth it). If they live to market weight (280-300lbs) we sell them to the local lockers for very large discount (say maybe $30-40 per HEAD). Often it is not worth it to load up 5 ruptures and take them to town so we just butcher then ourselves. The large processors will no accept any pig that is not 100% due to legal reasons involving animal rights people. It is just too costly for them to handle anything not perfect. Also the pork belly is usually a premium money maker. This also goes for tail bites. Our last freezer pig was a tail bite.


----------



## timfromohio

SE Iowa - thanks for the additional info on pigs and pharmacists!  What a combo.  College cost is really going up - the numbers you were quoting were specific to pharmacy programs, correct?  I had mistakenly thought a pharmD was equivalent to doctorate as the programs I've read about (up here in Ohio is University of Toledo which is supposed to be pretty good?) advertise their programs as "doctor of pharmacy" - so no dissertation is required?

That's interesting about pigs - never heard of this condition, but I've never raised pigs.  The pigs we buy are mostly pastured and I guess as a consequence don't get quite as large.  We get half a hog which weighs in at around 100 lbs or so which I think is hanging weight, so we wind up taking home a bit less.  The difference in taste is amazing though - pork chops from a store are like tasteless hocky pucks in comparison.


----------



## jebatty

I believe there are lots of trades/professions which can be practiced from afar and allow a person to achieve the "10 acre homesite" dream. Some are very transportable, in that they can be practiced in many different areas; others are less transportable because of licensing or other requirements but still can be practiced from a remote location. I am a retired attorney, and for 9 years I practiced from our north central MN homesite while maintaining a practice based in Minneapolis-St. Paul, 175 miles away. About 1-3 times/month had to make the trip; otherwise telephone, computer, email, fax and mail handled it all very successfully. Could have maintained the practice, but retired after 34 years. Time to smell the roses and do the things that are even more fun than the practice of law.

The point is that many of us construct artificial constraints as to why we can't do something, a rather negative approach. Why not start with the premise that you can do it, and then construct the trade/profession to allow that to happen? My attorney friends and business associates told me it would never work to do what I did; well, it worked well. I think the appropriate answer was that others really did not want to make the change for a variety of reasons, some probably valid and many probably questionable.

A dream to do something is just that, a dream. It will never happen. But a goal to do something, now you're started on the path to make it happen. What's stopping you?


----------



## Marty

Has any one else read the book?

What a fantastically well thought treaties on living on the land of the mid 19th century. 

A million thanks for the chance to find and read this gem of a book!


----------



## MNBobcat

Gooserider said:
			
		

> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only way I feel like I've truly settled is in regards to the regulations imposed by my township.  While it's a historic farming community, I'm technically supposed to have over 2.5 acres to have any "non-pet" animals.  I want chickens, laying hens to be more precise.  No rooster.  Just hens.  Technically, even though we have almost 2 acres, which is more than enough space, I'm not supposed to have them.  Seems ridiculous to me and I plan on pushing the limits of "pet" next spring ...  I'm hoping if I give my neighbors some eggs nobody will care.  Bees might come later if I can get away with chickens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tim, I may be biased as a beekeeper myself, but I think you would find the bees would be FAR easier to get away with than chickens...  I'm keeping mine on a bit over an acre, but my supply lady has customers that keep them on their rooftops and balconies in downtown Cambridge and Boston...
> 
> Beehives are small and fairly discrete, and don't make attention drawing noises...  Honeybees are also protected in most places because of their being pollinators.  Since the bees in a hive are actually indistinguishable and interchangeable with the feral variety, you are essentially putting up the equivalent of a fancy birdhouse, and acting as a landlord...  My supply lady says there aren't ANY places she knows of that have restrictions on keeping them, though in many places you are supposed to register as a beekeeper, and agree to allow occasional inspections by a gov't hive inspector (for disease control purposes)...
> 
> Of course registering can be a good deal in some ways, if you let your local emergency service types know that you are interested, they will put you on a list of people to be called if they have an issue with bees involved such as swarms and such - can be a decent way to get FREE bees....
> 
> Gooserider
Click to expand...




Hi GR,

I raised honey bees about 20 years ago.  Small time -- got about 5 gallons of honey per year.   Has the price of honey gone up?  I mean, can you make any money selling it or is it something done purely for self-satisfaction and your own consumption?


----------



## Gooserider

I'm sure the price of honey has gone up, but I don't think it has done enough for a small time beekeeper to make much at it - might pay for the bees and cost of equipment over time, but not much more than that...  I primarily use my honey for brewing purposes, I got into making meads a few years back, and that takes a lot of honey to do very much - very roughly it takes about 5 quarts of honey to make 5 gallons of mead...  

When I started looking for a place to do bulk purchases, I ran into an old cranky fellow who insisted that if I was going to be using that much honey, I ought to be "growing my own" - and now I am running two hives, getting anywheres from zero to 20 gallons a year...  The big challenge seems to be getting the hives to winter over successfully...  For various reasons I've had to re-start with new packages at least one of my hives every year so far, which really hurts production....

Gooserider


----------



## MNBobcat

I never had trouble with the hives wintering.  We put hay around the supers to insulate them (leaving openings for the bees to get in and out) and made sure to leave enough honey for the bees to eat over the winter.  They did fine. Then we fed sugar water in the early spring.  It so long ago I'm forgetting things....but I think we may have wrapped the supers in tar paper before putting the hay around them.  

I tried mead at the renaissance festival.  I didn't care for it.  Which was too bad because I always thought it would be cool to drink mead.   I'm guessing there are all different kinds of mead though?


----------



## timfromohio

Hey - great to get this thread going again.  

GR - you, and some other bloggers, have inspired me to learn more about beekeeping and I'm seriously thinking about an introductory class offered by a local beekeeping organization in Medina County, Ohio.  It's $50 and is a total of 10 hours of instruction that culimates in some hands-on training in the Spring when it warms up.  I'm not totally committed to getting bees this year, but figured this kind of information couldn't hurt.


----------



## Gooserider

MNB - Unfortunately, a lot of the commercial mead out there is CRAP...  The stuff served at RenFaires tends to be among the worst, as often what they are peddling is Bunratty's "Mead*e*" which is a really deceptive brew made from cheap white wine loaded with preservatives and just enough honey for taste, and a load of spices....  They call it Meade to get around truth in labeling, though they make the label so it looks like they are just trying to do the "Olde Englishe" style thing...  However Bunratty's is cheap, and the RenFaire people can make a ton of money peddling it...

There are a few very high quality meads out there, but they tend to be hard to find, and fairly expensive - Honey costs more than grapes, and the few good commercial meaderies are all relatively small scale, without the distribution networks of the megabrands...

Mostly you have to know the right people as most of the really good meads tend to be home-brews.  It isn't that hard to home-brew, though it takes a while and requires a moderate amount of equipment...

Tim - I've taken one of the local courses, and read a bunch of books - both are useful in different ways...  The local courses are good at helping make connections with the local suppliers, and teaching you about what the local climate issues are, and other things along that line.  The books can give you more theory about why they tell you to do the stuff they do in the courses...  One thing to be a bit wary about is that some of the people teaching the courses can have prejudices about how stuff ought to be done that don't have a lot of solid basis behind them - for instance one of the local clubs is very insistent on teaching people to do plain wax foundation that they hand wire into the frames, as opposed to some of the more modern approaches like "wired wax" or Duragilt foundation which work equally well in many cases, and can save a lot of work....  This is where the books come in handy, as it gives the ammo to raise your hand and ask "The book says X, why do you say Y?" kinds of questions...

Gooserider


----------



## timfromohio

GR - I've read a little bit about beekeeping already - what do you think of top bar hives?  I was reading that they are a simpler design, easier to deal with, and possibly ideal for small time honey harvesters like I might become.

Thanks for any opinions you might post.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

Its funny how this thread was brought back to life again on the subject of bees. Im in the process of building a top bar hive out of pallet pieces and scrap plywood. Its 32" long. I have the body built, just need to add the bar rails, bars, roof and give it a paint job. 

I decided to do bees instead of chickens because 1)my wife doesnt want the chickens 2) come spring I will be working a lot and will have limited time to care for the chickens. So I figured since I like the natural honey my neighbor makes so much, I might as well give it a shot. Plus the bees will help in the garden and I dont have to do much in return...just give them some water. 

Here's a pic of my top bar hive.


also more info on the top bar method
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Sustainable-Farming/Top-Bar-Beekeeping-Method.aspx


----------



## jebatty

"Ten Acres" really has been fun. More power to the bees! 

Our little garden (two plots, each 5 x 20 or 25?) might be supplying my wife and I with our full year's requirement for green beans, carrots and squash, plus seasonal radishes, lettuce, broccoli and cucumbers. It's nearly Feb and we still have some fresh carrots and 2 fresh squash left. Lots of beans, carrots and squash still in the freezer. Also have a whole deer in the freezer, with a little bit of 2008 venison still to finish up. We've really slashed out food bills with a small garden and hunting success.


----------



## MNBobcat

I had never heard of the top bar design until you shared it.  Interesting concept.  I scanned the article you posted.  It seems the only advantage to the top bar is lower cost.   But it has a huge disadvantage when it comes to getting your honey.  You can't spin the frames to extract the honey.  The article talked about mashing the honey and wax and then trying to strain some honey through cloth.  I think you would end up with almost 50% of the honey still left in the combs and in the container and kind of a sticky nasty blob to handle. 

Honestly, if it were me I'd go with the traditional rectangular frames.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

MNBobcat said:
			
		

> I had never heard of the top bar design until you shared it.  Interesting concept.  I scanned the article you posted.  It seems the only advantage to the top bar is lower cost.   But it has a huge disadvantage when it comes to getting your honey.  You can't spin the frames to extract the honey.  The article talked about mashing the honey and wax and then trying to strain some honey through cloth.  I think you would end up with almost 50% of the honey still left in the combs and in the container and kind of a sticky nasty blob to handle.
> 
> Honestly, if it were me I'd go with the traditional rectangular frames.




Its definitely more cost effective on start up, especially since it hasnt cost me anything yet haha. Im just looking to get 4-5lbs per year for myself and have the added benefit of the bees hanging around the garden. 

I wonder if i could use an air compressor to blow the honey from the combs??


----------



## Gooserider

timfromohio said:
			
		

> GR - I've read a little bit about beekeeping already - what do you think of top bar hives?  I was reading that they are a simpler design, easier to deal with, and possibly ideal for small time honey harvesters like I might become.
> 
> Thanks for any opinions you might post.



I haven't personally done a top bar hive, but I have mixed feelings about them from all that I've read...  They do meet the standards for a "movable frame" design, which is important from the standpoint of needing to be able to monitor hive health and such.  I'm not at all sure I'd call them a "simpler" design - the angles in the hive body are critical if you don't want the bees to glue everything together, and they aren't the usual and customary angles that most of us use in woodworking.  OTOH the modern "Langstroth" design (the stacked boxes that most modern beekeepers use) has more pieces, but they are all designed so that they can be made with standard tools, etc...  If one buys the parts from commercial sources (I do, as I feel that building my own doesn't save enough to justify the extra hassles to do so) and uses an air stapler, it is possible to build a Langstroth hive in a couple hours - so there isn't much there to save...

When working, because the frames are surrounded on all sides, it is easy to put them down on the ground after pulling the ones out that you need to remove to get the space to work the rest of the hive - this is harder with a top bar as most of the comb is exposed...

Harvesting is also a very mixed bag.  A top bar is very easy to harvest, as all you have to do is cut off the comb and crush it to squeeze the honey out, and you end up with a lot of wax as well....  No need for purchasing or renting a centrifugal extractor like you need with a Langstroth hive...  The downside is that your bees only have a certain amount of resources - which they can use to either build honey, or build wax...  With a top bar hive, they have to build new wax every time, before they can build honey to put in it.  A Langstroth keeps the combs with minimal wax damage or removal, (just the cappings) so after the bees have built the combs for the first time, they can devote almost all their energy to making honey to keep refilling  the "recycled" combs....

Thus with a Langstroth, you get more honey and less wax, while with a top bar, you get less honey and more wax - it is a question of where the priorities are...

Another advantage of the Langstroth is it's flexibility - it is very easy to add boxes as needed for either brood raising or honey capacity...

One setup I have seen pictures of, that looks like it might be interesting is a hybrid configuration, with a top bar bottom section, roughly the volume of a Langstroth's 2 deep brood chambers, that has an opening in the back to allow the beekeeper to stack Langstroth honey supers - theory is the bees use the bottom for brood raising, and store their honey in the Langstroths where it is easier to harvest...

Gooserider


----------



## PapaDave

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> I'd love to figure out how to do it. I work in the New York City and live in the suburbs. I would give up a lot to never have to set foot in NYC again and live in the country. I just have to get the whole family on board with me. *My wife and I both want it, we just have to decide how badly we want it*.



I think this is the jist of the problem for most of us. When I and the wife made that decision, it took us a couple of years to get all the duckies in a row. Then we made the plunge, and so far, it's going pretty well. I sometimes miss being able to go to the store 5 miles away, but it used to take us 20-25 minutes to do that in the city. Here, it's 35 mile ride, yet only takes about 30-35 minutes and the ride is through the country. Yeah, that's better.
Elec. use is down to about 400 kwh/month (and is less in the summer), nat. gas is down to about 25/month, vehicle use is way down. Gas use is due to the firewood thing, but still overall less. I'm outside a LOT more. It's a real lifestyle change, and we wouldn't go back if you payed us to. 
We've got 8.5 acres, and just purchased (last year) about 2.5-3 more across the road from us at a tax sale (VERY cheap).
We'd actually like to be farther out with more land, but we're fine right here unless someone drops a crapload of money on us. 
My brother and I talk about this, and we both have friends who talk about doing it, but just can't let go of all their stuff, ....with the attending bills. I say good riddance.
Plan for it, then stick to the plan. It may just come to fruition.


----------



## jebatty

Well said - nothing happens without a plan. We did the same in 1997 when we sold our house in a Minneapolis suburb to live in our lake cabin, then added 6 more acres, then 160 more and then another 90. We have not only our own endless wood supply, but we also produce our own lumber for construction/finish/furniture projects; the land provides us with a yearly supply of venison plus garden; and the land that keeps us young through cross-country skiing and snow-shoeing in winter, walking in summer, on 5+ miles trails. We have had two timber harvests, more will come in the future, and 60 acres in a red pine planting that will provide the grandchildren with a future. Also rent out a house and machine shed on the land which produces income to cover all land-related expenses. The only time I've lived less expensively than now is when I was in college and living in a dump of a rooming house and eating rice and oatmeal almost every day.


----------



## Flatbedford

I would consider rice and oatmeal if I never had to set foot in New York City again.


----------



## PapaDave

The garden will be started again in the early spring, with raised beds made with rough sawn boards from the property. Goats and sheep for the wool and to help the compost pile. Bunnies and chickens too. We won't eat the animals though. Hadn't thought of broccoli, but might try that this year.
Of course, since this IS the Hearth, lots of c/s/s wood to keep us LESS dependent on others for our comfort in the winter. Some of it from our own acreage. 
Getting better all the time.


----------



## Wood Duck

Dave, for what its worth, I have raised beds with no boards or support on the sides, and it works fine. Save the boards for firewood! One advantage of no sides is that it makes it easier to rework the beds each year.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

I just got my copy of Ten Acres in the mail yesterday. I live in the Philadelphia suburbs, and I used to live in NJ for a few years. I had a nice chuckle when the author said "land was far cheaper, there was no state debt, taxes were merely nominal..." describing NJ. A lot has changed in 150 years! NJ property taxes are insane. Your run of the mill 3-4 bedroom house on a postage stamp size lot can have property taxes of $7000-8000/yr in some townships. The state is also on the verge of bankruptcy.

I also find it ironic that some of the conditions, social and economic, are very similar to what is going on today. He hates banks and the stock market because of their up and down behavior and also because they'd caused a panic/crisis in 1837. 

Its a shame most of the areas around me have been developed as much as it has. Finding 10 acres or more of good land within a 30 miles radius of Philly is extremely difficult today.


----------



## timfromohio

BucksCoBernie - finding 10 acres within a 30 mile radius of any metro area is very difficult.  We're in the Cleveland-Akron area of Ohio and it's the same thing here.  Of course, if you are willing to drive further, you can find it but then you face the connumdrum of having more land and more possibilities, but less time with which to do anything on it.


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## SolarAndWood

Not in Syracuse Tim.  We live 4 miles from downtown and are on the edge of the country.  There is a 120 acre parcel for sale 2 miles down the road with 50 mile views.  All you need is the glaciers to create some nice rough formations that are hard to build subdivisions on.


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## Flatbedford

For me, the trick would be to get that parcel of land and then NOT have to get to a metro area for work, but to have the land support me somehow. I'm still working on the somehow part. :-S


----------



## SolarAndWood

Us too Flatbed.  My wife's favorite place in the world is the camp her grandfather bought in the 40s in the middle of the Adirondacks.  It would take a lot of firewood sales to pay the property taxes.


----------



## timfromohio

SolarandWood - you are fortunate to live in such an area.  There are many positive attributes I see in the state of NY, although it seems property taxes are quite high.  I live in a township that is basically extreme west Akron.  Lots around 1.5 or less are in the $100k range in our township, and not that much less further out.  

Yup - the trick is to be able to make a living in a less populated area where the cost of living is less.  Of course, that's hard to do especially off the land.   The best option I have come up with is to either hit the lottery or inherit some large windfall, then we can execute "Operation Endless Saturday" ...


----------



## timfromohio

PS - I forgot to add "acres", lots that are 1.5 acres


----------



## BucksCoBernie

Or you could have some organic farming interns do a lot of the grunt work in exchange for farming experience/food or living quarters.


----------



## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> SolarandWood - you are fortunate to live in such an area.  There are many positive attributes I see in the state of NY, although it seems property taxes are quite high.



Taxes in NY are rough.  3% of property value at a minimum.  The problem with the camp is it hasn't changed hands since the 40s and there are no real comps.  So, the town gets to decide and you don't get to vote anywhere other than your primary residence.  They jacked the assessment 100% between last year and this year.  We went through the rounds up until you have to sue them and ended up with still more than a 50% increase.

There are always trade-offs.  We moved here from Rochester where there is no way you could buy what we did here for the price.  And, you don't find these kind of parcels within 10 miles of downtown.  On the flip side, in Rochester my sailboat was less than a couple miles away on a bay with a channel to Lake Ontario.  I can't remember the last time I have seen water to the horizon.  Life is a compromise, choose wisely.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

Is the Bug Jar still open in Rochester? I played there back in 2001. Pretty neat place with all the furniture hanging upside down on the ceiling.


----------



## SolarAndWood

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> Is the Bug Jar still open in Rochester?



I think so.  If you played there in 01, I may very well have seen you. Cool place.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

you may have been one of the 10 people who was at that show? haha If I remember correctly another bar in town had a big band in town and thats where everyone went. There were a lot of shows like that for us that summer...we also had the misfortune of playing shows in towns the same day as the warp tour.

I remember playing wiffle ball in the parking lot across the street from the bug jar while we waited for the place to open. We had a 20ft RV and lived in that for the summer and got into Rochester the night before. My drummer roofed our only wiffle ball so it was a very short game. I think there was a skateboard shop up the street also.


----------



## timfromohio

SolarandWood - you have a good setup.  I've probably even mentioned before in this very thread that it's a lot of fun to imagine what one could do with more property, but for me the reality is that I haven't tapped into the potential of what I can do on my 1.78 acre plot and could probably do more than I have time to devote to.  Before we moved to our current location I applied for several jobs in the Finger Lakes region - never been there, but thought it looked just awesome.  Oh well, NY was not meant to be.


----------



## SolarAndWood

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> My drummer roofed our only wiffle ball so it was a very short game.



Thats livin...who needs 10 acres when you have a parking lot and a game of wiffle ball.


----------



## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> SolarandWood - you have a good setup.  I’ve probably even mentioned before in this very thread that it’s a lot of fun to imagine what one could do with more property, but for me the reality is that I haven’t tapped into the potential of what I can do on my 1.78 acre plot and could probably do more than I have time to devote to.  Before we moved to our current location I applied for several jobs in the Finger Lakes region - never been there, but thought it looked just awesome.  Oh well, NY was not meant to be.



Agreed, an acre and a half reasonably close to where you can make a decent living is pretty sweet.  After I get the shell of the house done this year, I am going to get the orchard/hops in the lower part of the lot.  The Finger Lakes/central NY area is beautiful, nice sunset tonight over the hills.


----------



## timfromohio

SolarandWood-that's the view from your current residence?  Nice  I wouldn't be in a hurry to go anywhere either.  We sound like we are at remarkably similar stages of "homestead" development.  I'm finishing up a major kitchen/great room remodel (took out all interior wall, made one big room, added second stove, ...) and have some trim work left (making custom trim out of black walnut) and need to construct bult-in benches on the interior portion of an island.  That's winter stuff - last night we were thumbing through the Miller catalogue picking out apple trees and grape vines - want to start an orchard/vineyard in the "upper 40" portion of our yard.  The only thing holding me back is what the deer might do to my young trees as this area is not fenced in yet.  I fear they might grow as bold as the ones you have to deal with!


----------



## SolarAndWood

LOL, I can only dream of trim phase.  We bought the house for the view, and as my wife likes to add, the view with your back to the house.  Sometimes it is nice to go back and look at the progress pics when in the middle of such a project.  It has been an adventure and no we aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  I've learned a lot and had some ideas go well and a few I wish I had back.  One more section of house that needs foundation work, load bearing walls and the last set of trusses goes up this spring.


----------



## timfromohio

Great pics!  My project and yours are completely different in scale and scope though.  I didn't have to play around with anything load bearing and basically just gutted and re-did a 26'x26' portion of the house (a 1970s split level, so not that big to begin with).  We did learn a lot though, which is great.  Like you, I wanted our property for the view.  When we looked at the house I took one look out of the back window, saw the park-like back yard and TWO outbuildings.  One, a 2.5 car big garage with loft storage and a second 16'x16' building that is now my woodworking shop.  I swear that there were beams from Heaven and I think I heard choirs of angles singing when I first saw them ...

When finished, you'll have to post some inside pics.  It looks like the type of home with great big open areas - am I correct in assuming that you have some sort of great room with that wall of windows to take advantage of the wonderful view?


----------



## SolarAndWood

As part of the rebuild all interior walls came out except for the ones required for bed and bath.  Both floors with the windows are wide open and a 7' deep porch the length of the house is going out on the main level under the big cantilevered section in the trusses.  I am deeply missing those outbuildings you are so lucky to have and to make matters worse our 1.5 car garage has a 6 1/2 ft tall door.  I was back at my FILs house today finishing the clean out of the 4+ car garage with 3 8' doors, complete with a loft and 12x30 shed on the back of it.  Talk about a sweet setup.  If anyone is looking for a 8 acre homestead in the Utica area with 4 acres of orchard and 3 tillable, it is going to be listed in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## SE Iowa

I find it interesting that this conversation should venture into the realm of taxes and price of land near large populated areas. As people move farther and farther out, we are finding that they not only bring there personal items, but also their personal PREFERENCES for MORE AND MORE of the governmental services and infrastructure that they are supposedly moving away from. The consequence's of which include more taxes to pay for these things. It cost more to live there so people live further out, etc. It becomes a vicious cycle. The whole point of this topic is to be satisfied on less. I think most of us agree to this intellectually, but somehow I think that most of the new-comers (not all)and some of the locals forget, or don't think about how this is a self-defeating process. It then becomes, "I got mine, and too-bad for everyone else". 

If I might cast one vision, it would be to imagine the freedom and self-sufficiency that rural people enjoyed 50 years ago EXCEPT without all the heart aches of being subject to the harshness of that life (modern technology)!


----------



## timfromohio

SE Iowa - I don't think that people moving out necessarily demand more services and infrastructure or have much control over what happens when they do move out.  Some things are inevitable - if more people move to a given location (with kids) the school system needs more money and the standard thing to do is jack up property taxes.  The people themselves didn't ask for that, just happens.  As for services and infrastructure - those things just follow population density.  If developers or merchants think there's money to be made, they'll move along.  For the most part, there's little that can be done to reverse those trends.  

I agree with you on imagining life 50 years ago (really, I'd like to go back before the entitlement programs we now have, before our country was the world police, before there was a Federal income tax, ....)


----------



## SolarAndWood

timfromohio said:
			
		

> I agree with you on imagining life 50 years ago (really, I'd like to go back before the entitlement programs we now have, before our country was the world police, before there was a Federal income tax, ....)



Pass that pipe right along baby, I can only imagine what we are going to see in the next 50.


----------



## timfromohio

The next few decades will indeed be interesting.  SEIowa - you're right that the original point of this post was about getting back to basics, or something like that, right?  I think we'll all be doing more of that in the future out of necessity and it may not be all bad.


----------



## kenny chaos

Someday I'll be a farmer, working the land 
I wish I was a farmer, to work with my hands 
'Cause it's been too long a ride, too high the fare 
Well, I built an-climbed a mountain 
But it wasn't there 
And I been lookin' all around looked everywhere 
Well, I built and climbed a mountain 
But it wasn't there 
It isn't there, dum ta dum 
It isn't here, it isn't there, nor anywhere 

-Melanie Safka


----------



## jebatty

Pretty amazing that this thread, started in August 2009, has had more than 6200 views and more than 150 replies. We have a strong yearning for a more simple life, connected and in harmony with the natural world. Perhaps more of us will act on our yearning and better connect both with Nature and with each other. I don't think this requires us to go back in time. Rather, it might require us to recognize that we live in a larger reality of connectedness with, rather than separateness from, all the elements of creation.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

Well its hard to find information on Edmund Morris (1804-1874) but I happened to find that his farm was in Burlington, NJ. He is buried at the Friends Burial Grounds on High St in Burlington City (I think). As far as where exactly his farm was/is I am not sure. Im going to do some digging around and see if I can nail down the location. My real estate office is in Burlington Twp, NJ. I own a rental house about 2 blocks from the Burial Grounds. It's exciting to find out how close geographically I am to the people in the book. Once I find the farm's location I'll take some pictures of the area and post them on this thread. There are a few small farms in the area but a lot of the area has been built up.

If anyone comes across any info that may be handy to my quest please share it.


----------



## kenny chaos

BucksCoBernie said:
			
		

> Well its hard to find information on Edmund Morris (1804-1874) but I happened to find that his farm was in Burlington, NJ. If anyone comes across any info that may be handy to my quest please share it.





REALITY CECK #736- You can't find the farm because there was no farm.  He was a journalist, not a farmer.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3742723

It's the same today.  The people who make money on small farms are those promoting the notions.
The famous farmers of today are Wendel Berry, Gene Logsdon, Joel Salatin, Gail Damerow, etc..
They all make their money selling romance stories of farming.


----------



## Adios Pantalones

I dunno Edmund Morris from Morris the cat, but people from all professions had farms at one time.  Some were "gentleman farmers", others had it as supplemental income, some continued the farms passed to them from their family, etc.  Senators and congressmen, doctors, lawyers, etc- all seemed to have a farm if they lived where they could have one.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

From what I've read the book is an autobiography which means it is not fiction. Also Edmund Morris did move from Philly to Burlington. He was the editor of the Burlington Gazette. His name also appears on some of the NJ farming history websites which makes me believe that he did have a small farm in the mid-1800's.


----------



## kenny chaos

I've got an extremely fruitful, healthy, self supporting farm for sale
which anyone would love.  Feel free to PM me.
(Many magazine articles available concerning the greatness of this little farm and it was
once voted Most Beautiful Farm in the County.)


----------



## timfromohio

Kenny - post some pics of your farm - sounds nice.


----------



## potter

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> I've got an extremely fruitful, healthy, self supporting farm for sale
> which anyone would love.  Feel free to PM me.
> (Many magazine articles available concerning the greatness of this little farm and it was
> once voted Most Beautiful Farm in the County.)



Kenny- I may not be remembering right, but didn't you say you had a stone house? You don't have one of those cool old 'pebble' stone houses up by Rochester?
Some of those are really beautiful...


----------



## SE Iowa

timfromohio said:
			
		

> SE Iowa - I don't think that people moving out necessarily demand more services and infrastructure or have much control over what happens when they do move out. Some things are inevitable - if more people move to a given location (with kids) the school system needs more money and the standard thing to do is jack up property taxes. The people themselves didn't ask for that, just happens. As for services and infrastructure - those things just follow population density. If developers or merchants think there's money to be made, they'll move along. For the most part, there's little that can be done to reverse those trends.
> 
> I agree with you on imagining life 50 years ago (really, I'd like to go back before the entitlement programs we now have, before our country was the world police, before there was a Federal income tax, ....)



Not to inflame or argue, because I'd like to think we would have similar views on at least this subject, but....this is exactly my point. My kids are receiving a good education now. Why would more kids mean more property taxes? Shouldn't the tax RATE stay the same? If the economics of scale is true, tax rates should go down. What often happens is that as the schools grow they also add programs. The same is true for the rural development that follows these people. People move out to the "country" but still want the drive-up starbucks, mcdonalds,paved country roads, 24 grocery etc that they had in the cities. So true, the businesses follow to give people what they want, but isn't that what they are trying to escape? Then the business owners lobby their local government officials to improve access and infrastructure so that these people can get in to buy more of their $5 latte's. 

My whole point was that 50 years ago, out parents were able to make it without 24 hour everything, and quite arguably, they might have been more content with the peaceful lifestyle. That is supported by this blog in which we all can agree that we want a more simple lifestyle. I feel that the key here is to resist the American temptation to have your cake and eat it too. You might find that the old saying "things do not bring happiness" is TRUE.


----------



## timfromohio

SE Iowa - I think we probaby agree - I dont' think you're arguing with me at all.  My point was that the folks who move out don't, themselves, act directly to raise taxes.  I agree 100% with your point about simplifying everything.  

Regarding schools, the economies of scale works up to the carrying capacity of the school.  Before we moved up to the Akron-Cleveland area, we lived in Delaware county Ohio, which was (and still may be) the fastest growing county in the state.  The taxes on our 2400 square foot house on 0.20 acres (standard cookie-cutter "McMansion" wannbe house) were a little over $3k a year when we moved in which was in 2002.  We left in 2005 by which time the property taxes were about to go to $4800 per year.  At the present time they are just over $6k a year and the house value has declined back to around the price we paid for it.  All of the increases were due to the growth in the school system - went beyond the carrying capacity of the existing buildings and they had to build lots of new buildings.  Nobody asked for it to happen, it just did.  In retrospect, the lesson learned is to move to an area with a near flat, or maybe slightly positive, growth rate.  As an aside, what really ticks me off if the percentage of my propety taxes that go to the school system at all - we home school and I think we, and retired folks or anybody who is not taking advantage of a service, should get some form of tax credit.  

You're right though - 50 years ago, people somehow existed without instant-everything, were significantly more self-sufficient, and I'd like to think were a happier bunch.  Go back even further and you might have experienced the true joy of owning your own property without property taxes hanging over your head, not being viewed as weird for heating with wood and growing/preserving your own food, and actually being forced to learn to do things like learn to play an instrument rather than a computerized "hero" version of doing so.


----------



## BucksCoBernie

kenny chaos said:
			
		

> BucksCoBernie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well its hard to find information on Edmund Morris (1804-1874) but I happened to find that his farm was in Burlington, NJ. If anyone comes across any info that may be handy to my quest please share it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REALITY CECK #736- You can't find the farm because there was no farm.  He was a journalist, not a farmer.
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/3742723
> 
> It's the same today.  The people who make money on small farms are those promoting the notions.
> The famous farmers of today are Wendel Berry, Gene Logsdon, Joel Salatin, Gail Damerow, etc..
> They all make their money selling romance stories of farming.
Click to expand...


Here's your reality check.

I just received an email from the honey brook farm in Burlington Co. The Morris farm did exist in Burlington City NJ. I am surprised because Burlington City is one of the oldest towns in the country...goes back to William Penn days. I thought for sure the farm would of been located in what is not considered Burlington Twp. Here's the email I received:

"Hi Bernie:

His farm was in a section of Burlington City called the London Bridge section.  He is buried in the Friends' cemetery, behind the meeting house in Burlington City.

Hope this helps!  Sherry"

Im still trying to figure out the exact spot.


----------



## SolarAndWood

Well done Bernie, the dream lives.


----------



## timfromohio

I don't know anything about this Morris fellow, but if he's anything like Joel Salatin or Gene Logsdon he was a genuine farmer with new ideas that he proved successful to himself on his own farm and then went and wrote about it.  Both Salatin and Logsdon are the real deal.  Logsdon did write for a larger portion of his career, but knows his stuff.  Salatin was operating a successful and profitable farm using organic methods, pasturing beef and hogs, and running chicken tractors long before it was the in/green thing to do.  If those guys can make extra income writing about their success and transition to the role of spokesman, then I say more power to them.  

PS - you guys might like another Ohioan (like Logsdon) named Louis Bromfield - look up Malabar Farm.  Great books.


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## kenny chaos

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Salatin was operating a successful and profitable farm using organic methods, pasturing beef and hogs, and running chicken tractors long before it was the in/green thing to do.  If those guys can make extra income writing about their success and transition to the role of spokesman, then I say more power to them.
> .




Don't be fools.
Where do you get this stuff?
Any of you taken bread with any of your heroes,
visited their farms, emulated their systems?
Do that for ten years and and you wouldn't speak on their behalf anymore.
Long live your dream.
Just don't invest in it.


Joel Salatin is singly responsible for ruining too many good peoples dreams.
Don't be another sucker.
Check the facts, not just the glossy photos and inspiring script.
You will not survive selling six sides of beef, 100 chickens, 4 sides of pork, and 50 dozen eggs every year.  
Nor do you have Salatins incredible, rare, and questionable marketing skills.
How to Make $20,000 in Six Months raising a few chickens?  Yeah right.  How to get rich quick nonsense.
Meet him at a bulshiz conference and ask him the hard questions, he always disappears.

Your hero's were publishers, writers, editors, full timers with a hobby.

NOTE: Fight for your dream and continue to believe it but I speak the truth for those who can understand it.

There's tons more bulslit at ATTRA and other sites who keep their jobs by promoting the promoters (lots of salatin and other gurus.)

Did I tell you about the "on farm" meeting I went to, set up by a farm agency one time?  There were 14 people who showed up and other than the landowner, I was the only farmer.  The rest were other "agency" people who's job it is to support one another's bulchit.
Wake up everyone.


----------



## midwestcoast

Just wanna say I've enjoyed following this thread & it's great to see how many others share my feelings about becoming a little more self-sufficient & connected to nature, and a little less connected to "stuff". Or however you wa to put it.

Kinda hijacking here, but this thread is all-over the place so:

[quote author="timfromohio" date="1265928584"] As an aside, what really ticks me off is the percentage of my propety taxes that go to the school system at all - we home school and I think we, and retired folks or anybody who is not taking advantage of a service, should get some form of tax credit.  quote]
Problem is that IF more well-off folks take the tax-credit & spend it on private education, the public school system has less funding, become a 2'nd tier system, so more kids flee to private school, even less $ for the public schools.... until we have only those with no other option sending their kids to terrible schools where they have little chance to succeed.  
I understand not wanting to pay for services you're not using, but IMO the whole point of having Public schools (ie. cost shared by everyone) is to avoid a class system where some kids can't get ahead because they can't afford decent education.  School funding by property taxes isn't a great method IMO, but I don't see how having more people opt-out would help.


----------



## timfromohio

I haven't tried Salatin's system, but have read some of his stuff and his math adds up based on what he says he charges, the time he says he spends, and the prices that the same products (eggs, bulk pastured beef, pastured pork, chicken) go for where we live.  He also has just the right setup for his local market and had a huge advantage in that he had no mortgage, nor took on any additional debt, going into his endeavor.  That one is huge in my mind - not having any debt.  His farm was part of a multi-generational family vision - his father worked an off-farm job and "played farmer" on an off as a hobby.  This enabled Joel Salatin to start his operation small scale, debt-free, and grow it without incurring additional debt.  Also, his timeline adds up.  There was a time period before his book publications that he must have been doing something for money - he claims that he was farming, and I guess I believe him.  Plus, I've seen him on video gut a chicken - even if all the rest of his speel is nonsense, man can that guy gut a chicken fast!  

Logsdon did indeed make the bulk of his living off the farm, through his writing - but he wrote about what he did and tried out on his own place, so I respect him for that.  He tried lots of neat stuff, wrote about it, and people bought his books.  Maybe I'm completely naive and what he was trying wasn't all that original (in terms of differnt ideas about crop rotations, ways to plant corn, etc.) but then in my mind all of the "real farmers" who "knew" that stuff already are just ticked at him b/c they figured "why didn't we write about it" and cash in.  

I think that a lot of farmers (and I'm not saying that you are one of them at all Kenny - I've just read extensive criticism of Salatin before) and just ticked that they got suckered into the big industrialized system, took on enormous amounts of debt, are raising poultry on contract for Tyson and have lost all control, etc. and are just PO about it and jealous that there appears to be a guy who is critical of the ways they are doing things and is himself successful.


----------



## kenny chaos

You really need to do it Tim.  Soon.   Time to dirty your fingernails and live your own life.  

I love sharing my knowledge and experience but I don't beg no one to listen.

I'm gone........


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## timfromohio

midwestcoast - the problem with public eduation is the same problem with any government run anything - it's completely devoid of efficiency, common sense, and just grows and consumes more and more without any positive results.  I'll use the state of New York as an example since there are quite a few NY's here - according to what I've read, the percentage of the state budget going to public eduation has continued to rise in spite of a flat (or slightly negative according to one article?) growth rate over the past several years.  It's something outrageous like 15% of the budget.  I'm hopeful that if credits were available a bit of free market magic might take place and quality might improve - kind of like it did with the Post Office - they used to have a virtual monopoly on mailing things, right?  then came FedEx, UPS, Airborn Express, etc. - what happened, UPS Priority Mail is now a legitimate player in the market - competition forced them to up their game.  From a selfish, and somewhat libertarian standpoint, my first priority is my family (as is the case for everybody).  The bottom line is that if you add up federal income tax, state income tax, local income tax, gas tax, food tax, property tax, sales tax, vehicle registration fees, etc. I wind up working for over 5 months out of the year before I start earning money for my family!  That's messed up.


----------



## timfromohio

Kenny - apologies if offended you, honestly didn't mean to.  Please don't misunderstand me though.  My dream is not to live a Salatin-esque existence.  I think Salatin, Logsdon, etc. have neat ideas and am trying some in my backyard on a small scale.  If I want to like them, that's my opinion.  If you want to say they're not realistic, that's your opinion and I would certinaly put more stock in yours over mine since I'm trying their ideas out for fun and the benefit of my family, not trying to make a living off of them.  But there's no need not to contribute any more to the thread, especially since you appear to be the only geniune farmer amongst those commenting.  Plus, you can't leave yet since you haven't yet posted pics of your farm!

My original input here was on the desire to have some more property, ponder how many acres one might need to be self-sufficient, and bemoan the fact that it's hard to find even a few acres close to employment or employment out where there are affordable acres.  While it's fun to fantasize about living endless Saturday's, I'm quite content to get my fingernails dirty only on the weekend and am indeed living my own life.


----------



## jebatty

Glad to see that we want to keep this on track; it's good for all of us. The thread captures a dream, more or less realizable, but worthy none-the-less. Even more important is that many of us actually have made parts of the dream a reality for us, and strive to a greater realization. Many roles need to be served by many facets of life to make life work. My wife and I continue on the pursuit of our dream, we talked about this on our 2 mile walk this morning on a country, snowy road, at 4F above 0, crystal clear sky, not even a whisper of a breeze, complete peace, and we thought -- there is no better place to be right now except right here.


----------



## SE Iowa

timfromohio said:
			
		

> ... But there's no need not to contribute any more to the thread, especially since you appear to be the only geniune farmer amongst those commenting.  ...



I'm a real farmer with a day-job in town.  430 acres of corn and beans + some small hay patches.  Finishing 44 calves and have 15 chickens (my sons' "livestock business").  We understand that the writing is on the wall for commodity production at this SMALL scale level, especially the livestock thing.

Ending my previous rant and on to the next....

I wanted to get the opinion from you guys on an idea I had.  We were thinking about buying some high quality, small-scaled butchering equipment.  My idea is to raise small amounts of low-investment livestock (primarily pigs and then later chickens) in a chemical/hormone-free and "free range" manor.  Sort of like what they did 50 years ago.   We would pre-market the animals (i.e. we have just farrowed 10 piglets to be finished by this date) via the internet.  Note, we live 20 minutes from the Univ of Iowa.  My not-fully developed idea is to allow people to participate in the processing (not the slaughter though) of "their" animal.  This will allow them to understand where the food comes from and know that it was taken care of all along the way.  I would charge only for the animal with the understanding being that it would be more per pound to make up for the processing fees.  We do this same sort of thing when we process deer except obviously, no one pays for the animal we just work together.


----------



## midwestcoast

Tim; Point taken. Looks like a pretty much philosophical difference. I don't really have a problem with 15% of State budget going to education on priciple. I do have a problem with kids not being offered quality education, which happens a lot in current system. I respect your decision to home-school & depending on how good/bad the school system is where I live, I might do the same. 

SE Iowa: I like your small-scale slaughter idea & I think it's the kind of thing that needs to happen if small-scale, sustainable farming is to grow or even survive.  It sounds to me like there could be opportunity for a co-op set-up with other farms in the region to offset initial outlay & have the equipment working on more than just your own animals.  There are some small mobile slaughter units operating in U.S. & Canada (mainly focussing on organic or free-range livestock & poultry). Could be worth searching & contacting those folks for advice.  Not sure about your area, but from this consumers point-of-view, free-range pork is less common even in developed markets 'cause people looking for ethical choices don't tend to eat so much pork.  Turkey?


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## timfromohio

SE Iowa - sorry, forgot that you also farmed.

Onto your idea - it's a great idea.  We purchase bulk pastured beef and pork from a local farmer.  It's then butchered at another family-operated place, but I'd love to know how to process the animals and would willingly participate - even if there was not much of a price break for doing so - just to learn.  I'm sure there are lots more people out there like me that would love to know how to do this stuff.  If you are interested, I can email you the pricing information that the farmer we get the meat from just emailed me.


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## Flatbedford

SE Iowa said:
			
		

> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... But there's no need not to contribute any more to the thread, especially since you appear to be the only geniune farmer amongst those commenting.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a real farmer with a day-job in town.  430 acres of corn and beans + some small hay patches.  Finishing 44 calves and have 15 chickens (my sons' "livestock business").  We understand that the writing is on the wall for commodity production at this SMALL scale level, especially the livestock thing.
> 
> Ending my previous rant and on to the next....
> 
> I wanted to get the opinion from you guys on an idea I had.  We were thinking about buying some high quality, small-scaled butchering equipment.  My idea is to raise small amounts of low-investment livestock (primarily pigs and then later chickens) in a chemical/hormone-free and "free range" manor.  Sort of like what they did 50 years ago.   We would pre-market the animals (i.e. we have just farrowed 10 piglets to be finished by this date) via the internet.  Note, we live 20 minutes from the Univ of Iowa.  My not-fully developed idea is to allow people to participate in the processing (not the slaughter though) of "their" animal.  This will allow them to understand where the food comes from and know that it was taken care of all along the way.  I would charge only for the animal with the understanding being that it would be more per pound to make up for the processing fees.  We do this same sort of thing when we process deer except obviously, no one pays for the animal we just work together.
Click to expand...


I think that you have a good idea. With the growing awareness of healthy eating and the possible negatives of "factory farming" you may have success. I live in the suburbs of New York City and I know that there is a demand for natural and/or organic foods. Locally raised would surely be a plus. There is a small local farm in my town that produces meats and vegetables. http://www.hemlockhillfarm.com/ . There are others that are further out of the city that offer same. 

I've been thinking that another way to make small farm living possible if close to an urban area is to make it somewhat of a tourist attraction as a way to increase revenue. But there is the balance between proximity to that urban population and the cost of land. There are a couple apple orchards in my area that seem to survive by making themselves a destination as well as a food source with a few farm animals to pet, hay rides, and apple picking. I believe that there will be an increase in interest in local produce in the coming years.


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## timfromohio

I agree with everybody that what we are seeing now in terms of people getting into local, small-scale agriculture is the tip of the iceberg.  I love knowing that my money goes to local, family farmers who are trying to raise animals responsibly.  Plus, the product is far better than what you get the average grocery store.  We conducted side-by-side taste tests with the pastured meats and conventionally-raised meat bought in the grocery.  Amazing difference.  Further, cost-wise when it's all said and done when buying in bulk the consumer is really not paying all that much more (at least for pork and beef) per pound than you would at the store.


----------



## kenny chaos

SE Iowa said:
			
		

> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... But there's no need not to contribute any more to the thread, especially since you appear to be the only geniune farmer amongst those commenting.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a real farmer with a day-job in town.  430 acres of corn and beans + some small hay patches.  Finishing 44 calves and have 15 chickens (my sons' "livestock business").  We understand that the writing is on the wall for commodity production at this SMALL scale level, especially the livestock thing.
> 
> Ending my previous rant and on to the next....
> 
> I wanted to get the opinion from you guys on an idea I had.  We were thinking about buying some high quality, small-scaled butchering equipment.  My idea is to raise small amounts of low-investment livestock (primarily pigs and then later chickens) in a chemical/hormone-free and "free range" manor.  Sort of like what they did 50 years ago.   We would pre-market the animals (i.e. we have just farrowed 10 piglets to be finished by this date) via the internet.  Note, we live 20 minutes from the Univ of Iowa.  My not-fully developed idea is to allow people to participate in the processing (not the slaughter though) of "their" animal.  This will allow them to understand where the food comes from and know that it was taken care of all along the way.  I would charge only for the animal with the understanding being that it would be more per pound to make up for the processing fees.  We do this same sort of thing when we process deer except obviously, no one pays for the animal we just work together.
Click to expand...




Image is everything.  Nice articles in the local paper or an open house so your customers can come snoop around once a year will go over better than asking them to help process.  People are lazy.  When word got out we were processing, people came from miles around wanting all kinds of wierd things done and they didn't want to pay much.  They were, basically, people who got the small farm dream but didn't really want to do the hard work (too gross, stupid, and dirty).  They thought that because they already had $6 into their chicken that it wasn't fair for us to charge $3 more to clean it.
It is good living near a university because the more intelligent people will be your best customers.
What worked best for us was the "egg route."  It was kinda like the Swan's guys.  
You slowly build customers to your route.  We carried eggs, sausage, pork cuts, beef cuts, honey, rabbits and promoted and took orders for the Thanksgiving turkey's.
I didn't have enough help to keep it going but the customers loved it and it was fun to get out once a week for some talk with smart people.  Ask your customers to tell others about you.  They will and you will grow.  Produce ponzi scheme?
Be careful using the buzz words.  Many smart people see them for the b.s. that they are.  (organic, free range, hormone free, all natural, locally grown and produced, etc..)  Invite them out to see how you do what you do.
P.S.-  There's no such thing as "low-investment livestock."
Locally produced in Rochester usually means it came from the wholsale market in Buffalo and vice versa.
I've even witnessed produce from southern countries make it up here to large packing houses where it is transferred to boxes with local markings.
It's a mess out there people.  Be careful.


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## Gooserider

SE Iowa said:
			
		

> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... But there's no need not to contribute any more to the thread, especially since you appear to be the only geniune farmer amongst those commenting.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a real farmer with a day-job in town.  430 acres of corn and beans + some small hay patches.  Finishing 44 calves and have 15 chickens (my sons' "livestock business").  We understand that the writing is on the wall for commodity production at this SMALL scale level, especially the livestock thing.
> 
> Ending my previous rant and on to the next....
> 
> I wanted to get the opinion from you guys on an idea I had.  We were thinking about buying some high quality, small-scaled butchering equipment.  My idea is to raise small amounts of low-investment livestock (primarily pigs and then later chickens) in a chemical/hormone-free and "free range" manor.  Sort of like what they did 50 years ago.   We would pre-market the animals (i.e. we have just farrowed 10 piglets to be finished by this date) via the internet.  Note, we live 20 minutes from the Univ of Iowa.  My not-fully developed idea is to allow people to participate in the processing (not the slaughter though) of "their" animal.  This will allow them to understand where the food comes from and know that it was taken care of all along the way.  I would charge only for the animal with the understanding being that it would be more per pound to make up for the processing fees.  We do this same sort of thing when we process deer except obviously, no one pays for the animal we just work together.
Click to expand...


Doesn't sound like a bad idea, though I don't know about letting the customer help - at least some might tend to not have the stomach for it (and you don't need customers barfing on the equipment  :sick: ) not to mention the risk / liability if they put hands where they shouldn't and start butchering their fingers along with the critter...  The other obvious question that would need to be looked into is what sort of extra gov't regulations you might be getting into if you start providing any sort of butchering / processing service....

However the basic idea of raising organic or even just "better than grocery store" critters and selling them does seem like a good approach, especially the "pre-book" idea - though for some larger animals it might make sense to let people pre-book for just part of an animal, or for so many pounds of meat - with the understanding that the animal doesn't get done in till it's all sold, as this gives a more predictable income....  

Given the premium that people seem to be willing to pay for organic, etc. sorts of groceries, it would seem to me like this might be a good way to make up for the limitations of small scale production - smaller numbers of animals, but more per each one...

We haven't really looked into it in depth, but the idea of pre-booking a cow or pig to fill our freezer does have some appeal to it.

Gooserider


----------



## BucksCoBernie

SE Iowa said:
			
		

> timfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... But there's no need not to contribute any more to the thread, especially since you appear to be the only geniune farmer amongst those commenting.  ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a real farmer with a day-job in town.  430 acres of corn and beans + some small hay patches.  Finishing 44 calves and have 15 chickens (my sons' "livestock business").  We understand that the writing is on the wall for commodity production at this SMALL scale level, especially the livestock thing.
> 
> Ending my previous rant and on to the next....
> 
> I wanted to get the opinion from you guys on an idea I had.  We were thinking about buying some high quality, small-scaled butchering equipment.  My idea is to raise small amounts of low-investment livestock (primarily pigs and then later chickens) in a chemical/hormone-free and "free range" manor.  Sort of like what they did 50 years ago.   We would pre-market the animals (i.e. we have just farrowed 10 piglets to be finished by this date) via the internet.  Note, we live 20 minutes from the Univ of Iowa.  My not-fully developed idea is to allow people to participate in the processing (not the slaughter though) of "their" animal.  This will allow them to understand where the food comes from and know that it was taken care of all along the way.  I would charge only for the animal with the understanding being that it would be more per pound to make up for the processing fees.  We do this same sort of thing when we process deer except obviously, no one pays for the animal we just work together.
Click to expand...


There is a coffee shop in Philly called Mug Shots (its across from the old Eastern State Prison) who serves free-range bacon. Its the best bacon i've ever had. They buy it from a farm in Lancaster Co. The shop is always crowded and they actually have a buyers club and buy the bacon in bulk and sell it to the club members.


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## timfromohio

Gooserider - I think that for both the pastured pork and beef that we got last year it averaged a little over $3/pound - that's for a huge mix of stuff - lots of ground in both cases (we get sausage with the pork) of course, many roasts, steaks, ribs, soup bones, and then bacon, hams, etc.  Plus, if you buy in bulk the chances are the butcher will package however you want - you get to specify how many pounds of ground meat or sausage per package, how thick the steaks are cut, etc.  My wife loves this aspect of it.  Plus, it's a great feeling looking into that full freezer.

BucksCoBernie - I feel the same way about the bacon we get.  It's cut thicker, has less fat, and is incredibly tasty.  Is that how the bacon is in the coffee shop?  

This is ridiculous - must go cook dinner, thread is making me hungry.


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## Flatbedford

I had the bacon from the local small farm near me once. It was delicious, and nothing like the any grocery store stuff.


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## BucksCoBernie

Yes Tim, the bacon is exactly how you described it. There's nothing better...well unless the pig was dipped in chocolate haha.


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## SolarAndWood

It occurred to me last night while hauling in the days tomatoes that the acreage isn't the issue, time is.  Given that we are both currently enslaved, 10K sq ft seems to be more than enough for us.  The transition to 10 acres is going to require a good plan and big cojones or retirement.


----------



## timfromohio

Yup, you hit the nail on the head.  I'd either have to win the lottery and execute "operation endless Saturday" or transition to an entirely new form of employment to make geniune use of more land than we currently have.

However, that sentiment covers "needs".  I'd still like to have more land simply for more space, my own woodlot, space for my kids to roam, etc.  But that's a "want".

On a related note, I brought in perhaps 30 pounds of tomotatoes last night also, much to my wife's dismay.  Just two days prior she finished tomato sauce batch #5 (which we freeze).  We are now about out of space for more sauce and might have to can this next batch.  Last year the tomatoes did very poorly.  This year, even with a touch of blight, we are doing very well.


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## btuser

I just met someone yesterday who has 100 acres.  That's his job.  Paid for and he cuts about 30 cord/yr with some timber.    Retired at 45 and does side jobs as a plumber.


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## SolarAndWood

I would have to make money with the land or be in a position to retire, 30 cord wouldn't even pay the property taxes here.  There is a big jump, in my head anyway, from heating the house with wood and growing the produce we consume anyway to supporting ourselves off the land.  Land as a luxury, that's all good, just have to work more to pay for it.

Tim, the tomatoes have been treating us well this year too.  Makes up for getting wiped out last year.  We came close to buying tomato products which is heresy here.


----------



## Mushroom Man

We made the jump in January 2008. We are in our third growing season. A wise person once said "Be careful what you wish for...you might just get it" or something like that. A similar warning "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence is" was one my Mom recounted.

The quote that struck a chord with me was "Buy land. They ain't making any more of the stuff."

There are advantages and disadvantages to country life and in my mind the country wins...hands down; but farming is a tough profession. It is not for the risk averse and is definitely more work than most city dwellers have been exposed to.

There is so much to learn, so many obstacles to overcome that there are few hours left for "west and wewaxation".

We left the big city (Toronto) and now live 20 km from anywhere on a 100 acre farm. It is scenic and quiet and clean with 40 acres of woods and 60 acres of farmland but the farmland was allowed to slide and has a lot of undesirable growth (grass, saplings, red cedars and weeds)

Before growing any crops we've had to re-clear the land and we're only up to 15 acres cleared for crops in 3 years.  There is 14 acres of pasture and there is 5 more in a paddock where horses were kept by the previous owner.

 I've had to work 3 days a week off the farm to sustain us and that is a subsistance living. 

We heat with wood that I cut. We have two wells and septic. We grow about half of our food and have really low taxes relative to our city dwelling.

We grow mushrooms (inside the barn), sweet potatoes and wheat (to support the mushrooms.) It is a 7 day per week operation. 

I've had one full day off in 3 years. I went sailing for half a day on my sailboat, that finally saw the water again after 3 years. That may have been it for sailing for this year. Harvest approaches.

I actually am not complaining. I like it. It is just more work than I expected. It can be both gratifying and disappointing depending upon attitude

Make sure you allow for the longer work days and more of them. We have made ourselves more resilient, more self-reliant but at a cost. Our comfortable way of life is no more.


----------



## SolarAndWood

Great story shroom and best of luck with the dream.  Eastern Ontario is beautiful country although I always enjoy sailing across the lake and parking in the shadow of the CN Tower.


----------



## Adios Pantalones

Ya, Mushroom Man- sometimes the "simple life aint so simple", I guess.  

I work full time in high tech, then come home and make pottery, sell it in galleries and in shows on the weekend.  I LOVE it, but I walk through the door, eat, make pots, go to bed, get up and go to my regular job.  I hope to build up to an early retirement and have the business humming along for maintenance cash.

If it was full time pottery (wood fired), then I'd be cutting wood, getting hardcore about my garden, etc.- working harder than I ever did, but probably loving it.  Wife works full time for insurance anyhoo.


----------



## lukem

Back to the OP's letter to his kids.  I don't know how old they were when he wrote it, but it really got me thinking about my generation (I'm 29).

Point 1 - Learn some skills...you just may need them someday.  Most (not all, but most) of my friends/colleagues can't even change their own oil, mow their own grass, or wire an outlet.  They've got a college education but are completely dependent on others for the simplest of tasks.  

Point 2 - Get out of suburbia.  Just the opposite.  Everyone either buys the big house in the cookie-cutter subdivision or rents an appt.  If they have a house, they are in deep on a mortgage in a volatile and declining housing market.  An appt does afford them the opportunity to do anything productive with it.

Point 3 - Investments.  What investments?  A tiny work-sponsored 401k and a mountain of mortgage and student loans does not an investment make.  I am the generation of prolonged negative net worth.

I am the only one who has a stove...at best they have some gas logs for ambiance.  If the power goes out for a week in the winter because of an ice storm, or whatever, they are up the creek.

I am the only one with a garden.  I don't have much land (3 acres), but if it came down to it I could probably get by pretty well with it.  I haven't bought a vegtable from the store in 2 months because of our garden.  I have apples, blueberries, and strawberries (from my land) in the freezer.  I'll put 2-3 deer in the freezer this fall (hunting on my dad's land).  

I can maintain my home and vehicles.  Repair man/shop for the smallest issue for others.

The list goes on.

I'm not trying to get down on anyone here...or pat my own back.  Just trying make a point:  I know I'm far from self-sufficient, but I'm Amish compared to most of the people my age.  And this is coming from rural Indiana (God's country!).


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## btuser

Sorry, but this post is getting off track.   You can SURVIVE, MAYBE, on 10 acres.  But it ain't gonna be pretty.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my women would be cutting me up 3 days after I ran out of hot water.


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## jebatty

For me the essence of this thread is the romanticism of a simpler past (whether or not it existed), which expresses a value of living more in community with nature in a sustainable manner, combined with a genuine desire to achieve greater meaning in life through relationship with others and with the environment upon which all living things depend. Many of us, me included, realize a certain satisfaction from such simple things as using CFL's as opposed to incandescent bulbs; or driving a 35 mpg car vs a 20 mpg vehicle; or having really fresh vegetables and fruit from our back yards vs imports from who knows where laden with who knows what chemicals and hormones; etc. 

A fact that I have learned from experience with such simple things is that life can be far more economical, far less stressful, and far more satisfying that it previously was; which in turn has allowed my wife and I to be far more generous with our children, community, and charity - which includes giving of far more time to these important relationships. 

One bottom line is no more than coming to the realization that a person can never have "enough" until the person realizes that "having things" beyond some minimum amount does not equate with quality of life. While that minimum amount may be far different for a 1st world country resident as opposed to a resident of a 3rd world country, a point is that the minimum amount is far less than what our culture and media tells us we "need."


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## Badfish740

jebatty said:
			
		

> One bottom line is no more than coming to the realization that a person can never have "enough" until the person realizes that "having things" beyond some minimum amount does not equate with quality of life. While that minimum amount may be far different for a 1st world country resident as opposed to a resident of a 3rd world country, a point is that the minimum amount is far less than what our culture and media tells us we "need."



Good point.  My philosophy along these lines is this.  Here in New Jersey if you have $800K to drop on a piece of property, the culture and the media tells you that you should spend that money on a 5000 square foot house with 12' ceilings on a 1/2 acre lot in an area with blue ribbon schools and an easy commute to Philadelphia or New York so that you can sustain the cost of the many thousands of dollars per month to power, heat, cool, maintain, etc...the McMansion you just bought.  On the flipside of this, I could take that $800K and buy a modest ranch home on 10 acres with hardly any mortgage, heat it basically for free, and pay a normal electric bill every month.  Not to mention what the land would give me in return in terms of firewood and food.  

My wife and I are pretty simple people-we spend most weekends doing chores around the house or not straying very far.  We're blessed with living in an area where state and county parks abound so most leisure time is spent with her and the dog at any number of forests or lakes, all free entertainment.  I will admit that a major motivation that I have for having 10 acres or so of land is hunting rights-they're not easy to come by in this state.  Public land can get unbelievably crowded to the point where it can even be unsafe.  Others literally pay hundreds and even thousands per year to join clubs or lease land, something I would never even consider.  Venison should cost no more than a license fee and a shotgun shell.  The other problem with public land is the fact that treestands have a habit of walking off, which also cuts into profit margin.  It's not uncommon to lose 3 or 4 stands to theft in a matter of years here.  If I had enough land between the 6 day firearm season with a bag limit of two bucks, and a permit season that lasts nearly 30 days with no bag limit on does I could easily supply enough venison for my entire family to last the whole year.  We eat pretty simply too, so between venison, backyard eggs, backyard chickens and turkeys, and garden veggies we could make a decent dent in the grocery bill as well.


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## Mushroom Man

There are many life lessons in the book Ten Acres Enough. The one that struck me as tremendously important was the value of manure. This farmer spent more on manure than anything else.

I end up buying a lot of crap too, because I live with a wife and two daughters, but no manure.

His discovery of the value of liquid manure and its relatively higher value was an eye opener. Imagine raising cattle for no other reason than to extract value from their excrement. 

For many people on this thread, the book speaks to them from simpler times and presents a beautiful picture of a happy loving family, working together. It shows a resilient lifestyle unburdened by debts and oppressive government interventions.

For me its all about liquid manure and the high value therein.

P.S. There is no manure in the mushroom substrate that we use.


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## Burn-1

One of my favorite sites on the web has been the Soil and Health Library. It contains many more old books and out of prints in the vein of Ten Acres Enough. 

I've really enjoyed reading Ralph Borsodi's, ( he was a contemporary of Scott and Helen Nearing), Flight from the City recently.


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## PitPat

Mushroom Man said:
			
		

> There are many life lessons in the book Ten Acres Enough. The one that struck me as tremendously important was the value of manure. This farmer spent more on manure than anything else.



I agree with this.
I found it a very enjoyable read and it provided me with a lot of insights. Some of the comments in thread have been a little confusing. To be clear, the author is NOT saying that people could produce everything that they need to survive on 10 acres. He raised a market crop and depended on the cash that those crops brought in to acquire the things that they did not produce themselves. What he is arguing is that in the 1850s it was possible to support a family on the fruits and berries raised on 10 acres of a suburban fruit farm through intensive cultivation and the heavy use of different manures. 

The big lesson that I took away from it was to take advantage of the opportunities available to you in the time and the place in which you live. The author of 10 acres was able to make a decent living by capitalizing on the changes in his area, namely the newly formed connections between towns and communities brought by the expansion of railroads and gravel turnpikes. That particular market is no longer there, now big cities are flooded with fruit flown in from central and south america. I think a fruit farmer in the suburbs outside of new york would have a much tougher time supporting a family in this age. But there are still opportunities out there for people who, like the author of the book, are forward looking and hardworking. There is a pick-your-own blueberry patch near me that isn't much more than 10 acres and is always busy. I don't know how they do money-wise, but whenever I leave there I can't stop thinking "I need to find a way to work from my front porch in my rocking chair while people come over and pick my fields and give me money.


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## PitPat

Oh, and thank you to the original poster for bring this book to my attention, it was a very enjoyable read. 
Its amusing hearing the anecdotes about surviving the great economic uncertainties of the times. Without the dates and the style of writing it would have been difficult to tell that he wasn't talking about the 21st century U.S. economy.


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## Mushroom Man

The point has been made that food products can be shipped from Southern climates at moderate cost to city dwellers; and so the opportunities to benefit from a nearby market and hence make a living from ten intensively planted acres is unlikely.

While that is true at present it may not be in the future. Planning for the future does not have to be alarmist; it might just be prudent like having insurance in case your house burns down.

I recently read a USA Today article entitled "Record number in government anti-poverty programs (Updated 8/30/2010 9:25 AM). It alerted me that 1 in 6 Americans are availing themselves of anti-poverty programs (medicaid, welfare, food stamps etc.) I found that article astonishing, and of course, sad. Taxes will have to go up to keep all these people and the programs working, (or perhaps we can continue to borrow indefinitely without any adverse consequence).

Affordability of foreign sourced foodstuffs is an important factor in their availability. Also externally imposed factors can weigh heavily on that affordability. 

Take oil prices for one.  It occurs to me that an oil shock in the near future may make imported foodstuffs a rare delicacy. What happens to imported foodstuffs when oil is $200 rather than $70 per barrel. I have seen such forecasts from people with a better capacity for projecting such things than I. They cite peak oil as being the reason for such shocks.

It may be prudent to insure against such shocks as best we can by having access to local produce.  Supporting a local grower may cost a little more now but his/her availability in the future may be the difference between eating and not. The moderately higher price can be justified by the freshness factor.

Better still, grow a garden. It takes time, effort and planning; but even if an oil price shock never hits and taxes stay low (they are low relative to what they need to be) you'll have great tasting food, free of pesticides and preservatives. If a shock does happen you can feed your family.

Heating with wood is oil price insurance, so is a garden.


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