# NY Times:  Is it OK to kill cyclists?



## 1750 (Nov 10, 2013)

Based on how drivers who maim or kill cyclists are punished, you'd have to say 'yes.'

This is just a little bit chilling:  http://nyti.ms/1euFktd


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## Mykayel (Nov 11, 2013)

Shocking yes, but a very well written article that points out both sides of the issue very well.  I love cycling, but I also 'hate' the typical cyclist who thinks they own the road and disobeys all traffic laws.  If you are going to use the road then obey the rules of the road.  You can't demand respect, but only earn it.  Until the cycling community accepts that, its pointless and SUV vs biker will always end in the same outcome with the SUV on top (literally).  And if the jury thinks its the typical cyclists who was just disobeying the rules of the road, then of course they are going to side with the killer.  And while not mentioned in the article, its only getting more dangerous for cyclists with the heavy cell phone/texting that goes on while driving.


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## vinny11950 (Nov 13, 2013)

not just cyclists but pedestrians too.  in NYC it is rare that a driver that injures or kills a pedestrian is charged.  just stay at the scene of the accident and tell the cops it was "an accident".  just recently a cab driver who was enraged jumped the curb, ran over a tourist, severing one of her legs, and now he has his drivers license back and is driving his cab again.

it is a car culture to the max.


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## 1750 (Nov 13, 2013)

Grotesque but maybe unsurprising.   Ironically, it sounds like the driver was raging with a bike messenger when it happened:  http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=9212667


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## ailanthus (Nov 16, 2013)

I gave up bike commuting years ago after a friend had a major accident that resulted in permanent disability.  That was even before smartphones and texting.  If it were safe I would bike to work 3-4 days a week, but there are enough local fatal accidents that I'll never do it.  Sad, really.


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## 1750 (Nov 16, 2013)

Yep, that is sad.  But I understand the inclination.  

When you see what some of the people do behind the wheel it makes you reconsider the pain-gain ratio.


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## BoilerMan (Nov 18, 2013)

The "Share the Road" thing would be nice.  I've often said I want a bumper sticker that says "Share the Road" but has a car on it instead of a bike. 

Also bikers don't pay road taxes, and if they want all the "roads made for cyclists" then we polluting rich people should not have to pay for it.  They would need to pay some kind of tax based on their mileage or a flat fee yearly to "improve roads for cyclists". 

Sorry to be like that, but it they want fair, they have to play fair too.  BTW, I do bike a fair amount. 

TS


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## sesmith (Nov 18, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> The "Share the Road" thing would be nice.  I've often said I want a bumper sticker that says "Share the Road" but has a car on it instead of a bike.
> 
> Also bikers don't pay road taxes, and if they want all the "roads made for cyclists" then we polluting rich people should not have to pay for it.  They would need to pay some kind of tax based on their mileage or a flat fee yearly to "improve roads for cyclists".
> 
> ...



Gotta love it!

I pay federal income tax.  I  pay state income tax.  I pay property taxes on 2 properties.  I pay sales tax. I pay registration taxes and fees for 2 vehicles and a sailboat.  All the cyclists I know also pay taxes.  I just happen to like to ride my bike to work instead of take my vehicle most days.  I don't feel I should have to ride on unsafe roads due to potholes, glass, and unsafe drivers, because I pay for those roads like everyone else.  BTW, I also follow the road rules when I'm riding my bike, as I feel it's my responsibility to ride at least as safe as I drive my car.

2 cents of an overtaxed cyclist.


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## 1750 (Nov 18, 2013)

sesmith said:


> Gotta love it!
> 
> I pay federal income tax.  I  pay state income tax.  I pay property taxes on 2 properties.  I pay sales tax. I pay registration taxes and fees for 2 vehicles and a sailboat.  All the cyclists I know also pay taxes.  I just happen to like to ride my bike to work instead of take my vehicle most days.  I don't feel I should have to ride on unsafe roads due to potholes, glass, and unsafe drivers, because I pay for those roads like everyone else.  BTW, I also follow the road rules when I'm riding my bike, as I feel it's my responsibility to ride at least as safe as I drive my car.
> 
> 2 cents of an overtaxed cyclist.


+ 1


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## BoilerMan (Nov 19, 2013)

I pay all of those taxes too, as well as 50+ cents/gallon of gasoline _which is supposed to maintain the roads_.  That's all I'm saying.  I guess I'm hard-nosed because of all the bickering I put up with about budget cuts, and a group that wants more to be spent who does not actually pay the tax that is supposed to support the road system.

This said, I'll wager we (American Citizens) pay around the 50% mark for taxes when we add up all of the taxes you listed.  Property, sales, excise, fuel, income, state, etc. taxes and figure our gross income I'll bet for most it's over 50%.

TS


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## fossil (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, BoilerMan, what about electric cars?  They use the roads but buy no gas, thus pay no gas tax...what should we do about that?


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## Grisu (Nov 20, 2013)

BoilerMan said:


> This said, I'll wager we (American Citizens) pay around the 50% mark for taxes when we add up all of the taxes you listed.  Property, sales, excise, fuel, income, state, etc. taxes and figure our gross income I'll bet for most it's over 50%.



I did the math for my family and even assuming very generous estimates for things like sales tax we are just at 35% (including social security). 2 income household, 2 kids, probably upper middle class, no fancy tax deductions. 

If you want to tax the group that really puts a toll on our roads then get the money from truckers. They are the ones who are wearing our roads down. If we all rode bikes we would need to spend a fraction of the money on road maintenance that we are doing now. 
http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/courses2/crp776/776-roads-handout.pdf


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 21, 2013)

fossil said:


> Well, BoilerMan, what about electric cars?  They use the roads but buy no gas, thus pay no gas tax...what should we do about that?


 

that question was asked in Va but when the state wanted to add a tax on the electrics so they would pay their share of the cost of road maintenance supporters were accused of being in bed with big oil.  the ones who were crying foul the loudest were the ones who drive electrics who of course wanted a higher gas tax to pay for the roads they would be driving on instead of this tax on their vehicles.  

so in essence they wanted gas drivers to pay more in order to cover their share of the cost while not having to pay themselves, all this while hiding behind the guise of being environmentally responsible


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## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

It's a fine line. We need to incentivize getting off fossil fuels. Electric cars are part of that transition but currently only make up a tiny fraction of a percent of cars on the road. A more equitable tax might be to tax everyone for road use, but tax the guzzlers the heaviest and the most efficient vehicles the lowest amount.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 21, 2013)

begreen said:


> It's a fine line. We need to incentivize getting off fossil fuels. Electric cars are part of that transition but currently only make up a tiny fraction of a percent of cars on the road. A more equitable tax might be to tax everyone for road use, but tax the guzzlers the heaviest and the most efficient vehicles the lowest amount.




incentives are fine, so folks can get a tax break for buying an electric vehicle, but then they are lobbying to raise the cost on gas to subsidize their use of the roads? what happens when a larger percentage is running on electric? raise the gas tax even higher? FWIW if i could afford to get an electric to drive locally i'd probably consider it, as it stands ive traded our chevy blazer for a kia soul getting twice the gas mileage  OTOH i also have a silverado but i cant haul a ton of pellets or a couple woodstoves in an electric car can i?

besides, an electric vehicle will bring about just as much (or little) wear to a road surface as a gas vehicle of the same type, granted a gas tax is "progressive" in the extent that it does tax the heavier fuel users more than light ones, but in its intent, its a tax used to pay for road upkeep, not social engineering. its not meant to be a "sin tax" merely a "user tax" for upkeep of the public road system. its the equivalent of a toll road that only charges tolls to gas cars and just waves the electrics by for free. both drivers get the same access to public roads but only one pays, what if they doubled the toll on gas vehicles to make up for the lost revenues on waving electric cars by with no toll? is that fair in the sense that the toll is used to keep the road paved properly?


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## BoilerMan (Nov 21, 2013)

Maybe someone can find the article. A few years ago in southern Maine, a man was caught burning bio-diesel (oh the irony) in his vehicle.  He was fined some exorbitant sum for not paying road tax while driving on a public road.  Personally I think it was to make an example for others who do this.  No dye in bio mind you, I think the smell of French fries got him caught. 

TS


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## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> incentives are fine, so folks can get a tax break for buying an electric vehicle, but then they are lobbying to raise the cost on gas to subsidize their use of the roads? what happens when a larger percentage is running on electric? raise the gas tax even higher? FWIW if i could afford to get an electric to drive locally i'd probably consider it, as it stands ive traded our chevy blazer for a kia soul getting twice the gas mileage  OTOH i also have a silverado but i cant haul a ton of pellets or a couple woodstoves in an electric car can i?
> 
> besides, an electric vehicle will bring about just as much (or little) wear to a road surface as a gas vehicle of the same type, granted a gas tax is "progressive" in the extent that it does tax the heavier fuel users more than light ones, but in its intent, its a tax used to pay for road upkeep, not social engineering. its not meant to be a "sin tax" merely a "user tax" for upkeep of the public road system. its the equivalent of a toll road that only charges tolls to gas cars and just waves the electrics by for free. both drivers get the same access to public roads but only one pays, what if they doubled the toll on gas vehicles to make up for the lost revenues on waving electric cars by with no toll? is that fair in the sense that the toll is used to keep the road paved properly?


I was actually thinking of something like an excise tax, not a gasoline tax. That is already progressive based on consumption. Not following the toll stuff. Do electric cars not have to pay tolls in VA? They certainly do in WA.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 21, 2013)

begreen said:


> Not following the toll stuff. Do electric cars not have to pay tolls in VA? They certainly do in WA.




was a "what if" would be comparable though. were that to be the case it wouldn't exactly be fair would it? its fictitious but accurate in my mind were it to be true


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## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

WA state like VA is levying a green car tax. Only WA is charging $36 more .


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 21, 2013)

begreen said:


> WA state like VA is levying a green car tax. Only WA is charging $36 more .




well, figure that against the amount of cumulative taxes you would otherwise be paying at the pump, you're still coming out ahead.


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## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

Except that we already have a vehicle excise tax on top of this and some of the highest pump prices in the nation which I already pay for my truck and van. Kind of ridiculous considering our electric vehicle rarely goes on any state highway. 90% of our driving with it is local so far.

PS: Just heard they want to tack on another 11cents per gallon to the price of gas here.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 21, 2013)

begreen said:


> Except that we already have a vehicle excise tax on top of this and some of the highest pump prices in the nation which I already pay for my truck and van. Kind of ridiculous considering our electric vehicle rarely goes on any state highway. 90% of our driving with it is local so far.
> 
> PS: Just heard they want to tack on another 11cents per gallon to the price of gas here.




im in the same boat in a way, in order to avoid paying for a lot of gas i would need to buy a third vehicle to drive the 50 or so miles i drive a week in my truck, its just not cost effective even with the gas prices (and the 3 to 4 MPG dropoff im getting since they put another 5% ethanol in the gas) i have to dump a can of seafoam in the tank every few tankfuls or it really falls off.


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## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

When I was back east I was amazed at the low gas prices. I filled up the rental car at $2.96/gal. in Myrtle Beach, SC.  Just paid $3.59/gal to fill up here today.

But this has nothing at all to do with bikes and drivers! Back to the OP.


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## Grisu (Nov 21, 2013)

Gasoline taxes funding road maintenance is a "marketing slogan". The same as "taxes funding ... (insert government spending of your choice here)". Should that not become clear when you look at your discussion?


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 21, 2013)

begreen said:


> When I was back east I was amazed at the low gas prices. I filled up the rental car at $2.96/gal. in Myrtle Beach, SC.  Just paid $3.59/gal to fill up here today.
> 
> But this has nothing at all to do with bikes and drivers! Back to the OP.



 was actually a bit low here for a few weeks first time i saw a 2 in several years, its back up above 3.10 here now, still lower than the national average.

as for bikers we're rural so they are few and far between. most pof the time they tend to be respectful of cars that i see, maybe they intend to continue to live.


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## 1750 (Nov 21, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> ... maybe they intend to continue to live.



I'm curious about what you meant with this, stoveguy?


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 22, 2013)

1750 said:


> I'm curious about what you meant with this, stoveguy?


 


well, if a bike gets in a collision with a car the rider is going to usually take the brunt of the damage as they arent protected all that much. so what i meant was if the bikers are careful and not making bad decisions while on the road they are less likely to get run over.

FWIW i look for bikers when im driving because i do see them and i try to give them as much room as i can because obviously i dont want to peel one off the grill of my silverado. what im saying is the bikers i see in my area are usually the same ones that i usually see and they seem to pay good attention to me and other cars i assume because they dont want to become a hood ornament either.


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## 1750 (Nov 22, 2013)

stoveguy2esw said:


> well, if a bike gets in a collision with a car the rider is going to usually take the brunt of the damage as they arent protected all that much. so what i meant was if the bikers are careful and not making bad decisions while on the road they are less likely to get run over.
> 
> FWIW i look for bikers when im driving because i do see them and i try to give them as much room as i can because obviously i dont want to peel one off the grill of my silverado. what im saying is the bikers i see in my area are usually the same ones that i usually see and they seem to pay good attention to me and other cars i assume because they dont want to become a hood ornament either.


The research that exists on this suggests drivers are at fault in the majority of bike-car accidents.   It's not the bikers breaking the laws that result in these tragedies, it's the drivers.  I guess your comment, and the presumption that seems to live behind it, just reinforces the premise in the article I posted.

As a driver, it's your responsibility to look out for others on the road.  The existing laws should reinforce this, but the lack of enforcement of the laws just encourages a lack of attention and your perception that bikes should really be looking out for you.   It's sort of like speed reduction through school zones.  One significant reason people pay attention to these is the large-ticket fines that are assessed for violations. If significant penalties for violations of laws related to right-of-way for pedestrians and cyclists were similarly assessed, the assumption is that this would help increase awareness of and compliance with these laws, as well.

That said, rest assured none of your community cyclists would want to put you through the tedium of peeling one of them off the grill of your Silverado.


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## begreen (Nov 22, 2013)

We are rural but close enough to the city that several make the daily commute by bike. I tip my hat to them, considering they do this rain or shine.


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## vinny11950 (Nov 22, 2013)

Werner Herzog did a documentary on texting and driving.

Here is a short news video on it:



You can find the whole video online too.

As roads get more congested, and drivers attentions are distracted by more and more communication electronics, the trend is to more senseless accidents.

Maybe the future is sensors in cars that avoid crashes but they are still decades away from commercial development and implementation.


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## Frozen Canuck (Nov 22, 2013)

vinny11950 said:


> As roads get more congested, and drivers attentions are distracted by more and more communication electronics, the trend is to more senseless accidents. Maybe the future is sensors in cars that avoid crashes but they are still decades away from commercial development and implementation.



Sadly that is needed up here too with far fewer vehicles on the road. Far too many seem to treat driving as job #8 when driving. Hardly a day goes by without a driver driving over someone & wondering what the thud was.


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## 1750 (Nov 22, 2013)

"Driving a vehicle while texting is six times more dangerous than driving while intoxicated according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)."

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/fi...us-than-Driving-while-Drunk.html#.Uo-40yIsqSo

Here's a write-up of a fun analog study sponsored by Car and Driver that concludes essentially the same thing:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/texting-while-driving-how-dangerous-is-it

Sobering.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 22, 2013)

1750 said:


> "Driving a vehicle while texting is six times more dangerous than driving while intoxicated according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)."
> 
> http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/fi...us-than-Driving-while-Drunk.html#.Uo-40yIsqSo
> 
> ...


 


i'd find that easy to believe , driving while intoxicated usually the driver is still trying to pay attention to the road, driving while texting the driver is trying to spell LMFAO while steering and looking at a small screen in their lap.


increased reaction times with either scenario but i'd bet the drunk would still react faster than the texter


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## vinny11950 (Nov 22, 2013)

more importantly, i bet younger, inexperienced drivers do more texting - a double whammy.  

there is a stretch of parkway in Queens NY that becomes a race track weekend nights.  kids zip in and out of lanes trying to race each other.  the only way to stay safe is to drive defensively.  it's a rush to see their bright LED headlights coming in the rearview mirror.


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## 1750 (Nov 22, 2013)

vinny11950 said:


> it's a rush to see their bright LED headlights coming in the rearview mirror.



Gah.  I could do without that particular rush!


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