# Will a new stove be better?



## dankev (Nov 17, 2008)

Hi there everyone. As you can see, I'm new to the forum, so I apologize if this has been asked before. I bought my house about a year and a half ago. It came with a beautiful little wood stove that, to my surprise and delight, heats the house beautifully. It is an old stove, though, so I have been wondering if something newer would be significantly more efficient. My father in law is also very concerned about the danger of having a wood burning stove in the house, especially regarding long term smoke inhalation. He has very generously offered to buy us a new stove as our holiday present.

So, I went to a shop today to take a look at the new stuff. In talking to the salesman, who appeared knowledgeable, he concluded our stove is working as well as a new, EPA certified stove would, and he didn't think he should sell me a new one. When I run our stove - 4 or 5 months of the year - I don't notice any smoke in the house, and there is no visible smoke exiting the chimney. If I fill it full of wood, I usually have coals left to restart a fire after 5 hours or so. My impression from reading about the newer EPA stoves is that they absolutely are more efficient and put out less polution. The salesman said that there isn't a difference between the _good_ old stoves (he did make a distinction between the good and the bad) and the new stoves. Based on my description of how ours works, he didn't think we'd see an improvement with something new.

Our stove is a Washington Stove Works Parlor Stove, No. 24. I have had a hard time finding information about it. The salesman was curious about it and asked me to email him photos. I'm attaching them here, too. There is a crack in the back of the stove, running through the words "upper back." No idea if that's a problem. The door also only has a mesh screen, rather than glass. If we keep the stove, I wonder if I should buy some ceramic glass for the door.

I'd love any opinions about the stove and the benefits of getting something new. Please let me know if I left out any details. Thanks!


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## Mass. Wine Guy (Nov 17, 2008)

Dan, I'm no expert even though I've heated with wood a couple of times and just got a Jotul Castine. But it sounds like this salesman is an honest person. If you can't see smoke from your chimney, your stove is efficient. Your stove seems pretty good. and it meets your needs. Why mess with something that works well? Ask for a couple of cords of dry firewood as a present, instead.


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## branchburner (Nov 17, 2008)

Nice looking stove. If you like it, keep it. I probably would. But I'm not sure how a guy is telling you it's just as good and efficient as a new one when he hasn't seen yours. A new one won't have a crack in the back and a chip out of the front (did you say mesh screen?) as this appears to. 
I think whether this stove is good enough is up to you, but the real question should be whether this stove is safe enough. If you haven't already done so, it might be good to get a qualified sweep to inspect it, as well as inspect your chimney, clearances, etc. to make sure the entire system is up to par. If you call around you might get lucky and find one who knows your stove. I'd ask lots of questions on the phone before you make your pick - second opinions are good, so are 3rd, 4th and 5th!


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## begreen (Nov 17, 2008)

Welcome. That looks like a nice old stove dankev. As you have found, with good burning habits, many old stoves can be burned fairly cleanly. Your old stove appears well cared for. The small crack in the back may be stable, hard to tell. It bears watching, but if no change then it may be ok. 

A new stove will be more efficient and will burn cleaner. With a good 2 cu ft stove, you can extend the burn time by a few hours. You will also benefit from a nice fire view and will have a legal heater for Oregon. 

If you decide to stay with the current setup I'd check into the distance between the stove and the rear brick wall. Is the brick a simple 1/2 brick veneer on sheetrock or is it an actual masonry wall? If it is the former, the clearances to combustibles (behind the brick) appear to be too close for this stove. I would also consider mica (isenglass) or pyroceram glass for the front to reduce air leakage.


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## dankev (Nov 17, 2008)

Jeez guys, don't give me useful information so I can make my own informed decision. Just tell me what to do! Just kidding... kind of.

With regards to the hearth and distances, it is a real brick wall, 3 1/2 inches thick, but I don't know what is behind it. The closest part of the stove, jutting back toward the wall, is 9 1/2 inches from the brick. The firebox itself is 13 inches away. I don't know what the clearance is supposed to be. 

I guess what I'm struggling with is this: Is it a waste to get a new stove when this one is working? If there really will be an increase in efficiency and burn time, along with reduced pollution, I'm willing to go for it. Especially since I'm not paying for it. However, if I won't see a real difference, it just seems silly. Even though I'm not paying for it.

Do any of you know if we should expect a difference in the amount of particulates that escape _in_ the house. That is probably the chief concern of the financier. 

Another factor (more for my wife) is appearance. We both think this old stove is beautiful. Looking at new stoves, there are some nice designs, but they don't have the same flare. The old stoves look like works of art to me. We're both perfectly willing to overlook that aspect in the name of efficiency and environmentalism, but it adds to the idea that there really has to be a reason to make the switch.

Thanks again for the feedback. I really appreciate it.


edited to add: If we do get a new stove, is there a market for these old stoves? Any idea what it might be worth?


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## InTheRockies (Nov 17, 2008)

Well, having just removed the old stove that was in the house that I bought here in the west and replaced it with a new EPA stove, I would say go for it.  I don't regret getting rid of my old stove.  The new one burns cleaner and is more efficient in heating my house.  (I also hope it eats less wood.)  I wouldn't have smoke from my old stove once it was hot and burning well; however, you could see smoke if I dampered down too much at night and when a fire was started from scratch and the stove was still not hot.  I don't see that with the new stove (you can't really damper a new stove down too much; the air controls don't close the stove down completely).  You may feel your stove is efficient; my old stove was a huge monster with a firebox that was almost 4 cf and it took far longer to heat up and start dissipating heat.  It also took a lot of wood to heat during the winter (I heat with the stove 24/7).  I can't express how much happier I am with the new stove.  I had been somewhat concerned that the size of the fireboxes on stoves rated to heat my house might be too small (I only have 1200 sf to heat and the average firebox for stoves rated to heat that size space is around 2 cf) but those fears have proven to be unfounded.  I am happy to be rid of my smoke dragon.


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## branchburner (Nov 17, 2008)

I say keep it. It is a work of art that still works, and works well. Would you tear down an 1800s Victorian and rebuild because a new house would be cleaner and more efficient? (Well, a lot of people would - I guess especially if the new house was free.)

Certain EPA stoves, if not used correctly (easy to do), can end up producing plenty of particulates, maybe as much as yours. If it was a real smogger you'd see more smoke, so while you could always get cleaner it sounds like you're doing pretty good. To use another analogy, I drive an old Camry that gets 30 mpg - should I feel guilty that I don't spring for a new Prius? I shouldn't, I don't, and I won't. (My Camry doesn't have quite the antique appeal of your stove - let's pretend it's a '75 Mustang. Then I could feel guilty, but I still wouldn't.)

As far as indoor particulates, smoke wants to go up and out if it can, so I still say the venting system is a bigger concern than the metal box itself (but I would get rid of the front screen). If that checks out to your father-in-law's satisfaction, he can relax and get you that firewood MassWineGuy suggested - the expensive kind, dry and well-seasoned (= less pollution!)


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## bokehman (Nov 17, 2008)

branchburner said:
			
		

> I say keep it.


I say get rid of it. There is no way that stove is efficient; it not even airtight.


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## savageactor7 (Nov 17, 2008)

First of all that's a lovely stove.  But yeah, a newer stove would put out more heat and burn longer...btw we had a stove like identical to that but it was called a Franklin but your stove has more bells and whistles. 

As far as burning cleaner? I dunno, personally I think burning hotter with seasoned wood has a lot to do with that problem and it looks you're doing that now. Hope I'm not projecting but that looks like some aspen remains in the stove. Around here we call that Poplar and people that burn a lot of it claim it burns hot and clean but it doesn't last...it does season really fast though.

Truthfully dankev, "To buy or not to buy"...I don't have a dog in that fight but I'm willing to bet you and your lady will be much happier sitting in front of a newer stove with a glass window...

...and your very gracious FIL will sleep better too.


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## woodgeek (Nov 17, 2008)

As for your FILs concerns....I think if you have a CO detector (?) and never/seldom smell smoke (esp  when coming into the house, before you might be acclimatized) then no worries.

That said, I think the whole clean=efficient rule breaks down in non-airtight stoves,  I can run a fireplace so I don't get any smoke, b/c its getting a ton of air.  So I second bokehman that you can't be getting your money/efforts worth from your wood,  How much wood you figure you'd use in a season? What's your sq footage?

My safety concern is on control--how do you regulate the amount of heat?  Do you have a thermometer?  I am running a smoke dragon--but I know I its airtight enough to shut down the fire if I need to.  Otherwise I wouldn't be burning it.  What happens if you load her up with an unusually dry load of wood under perfect weather conditions for draft, and its an overfire situation?


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## fallsfire36 (Nov 17, 2008)

If you are not paying for the new stove...get a new one.  You won't be sorry!  I also just moved into an EPA stove after using a giant old smoke dragon!  Same heat with a much smaller firebox.  What a difference.  Just make sure you are using good seasoned dry firewood!


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## Chettt (Nov 17, 2008)

You'll like the secondary burn and the glass window of a new stove but you'll miss the antique look and large firebox of the old one. The only time smoke/particulate matter inside will become an issue is if you have a bad draft, run a forced air central furnace or sometimes while running a clothes drier. By now you would have smelled smoke if there was a problem.

The one thing I miss about the old stove is the large firebox that could hold about any size or shape of wood. My advice is to get a new one but one with a big box.


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## begreen (Nov 17, 2008)

dankev said:
			
		

> Jeez guys, don't give me useful information so I can make my own informed decision. Just tell me what to do! Just kidding... kind of.
> 
> With regards to the hearth and distances, it is a real brick wall, 3 1/2 inches thick, but I don't know what is behind it. The closest part of the stove, jutting back toward the wall, is 9 1/2 inches from the brick. The firebox itself is 13 inches away. I don't know what the clearance is supposed to be.
> *
> ...



Answers in bold above. There are some nice new stoves out there too that have some similar features. However, nothing is going to match the beauty of these old castings. Washington Stove Works is known for having made excellent stoves. Perhaps the stove could be kept as a period piece of furniture in another room, but not used? There is a market for these stoves, but I wouldn't expect to get too much for an unrestored stove. But this is not something I know much about, so it's worth checking on the antique stove forums. FWIW, I believe selling a pre-EPA stove in OR is illegal. (Though I still see them on craigslist.)


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## burntime (Nov 17, 2008)

I say buy a new stove, I have not scoured the thread but if you are paying for wood you will save at least a third, be safer, the home will not be as dry, did I say safer  Of course its not my cash but when you eventually replace it you will wonder why you waited so long


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## caber (Nov 17, 2008)

If your current stove is working well and you have no issues with it, is there a more pressing need you could address with that $1000+?  If the money is only for a stove - perhaps.  After all, why turn down a brand-new wood stove.  

But I'd hesitate dumping a good, solid, beautiful, working stove all in the name of efficiency.  After all, it appears you are not in desperate need of a new wood stove.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 17, 2008)

I would be rid of that old, cracked, short wood burning, inefficient stove in a heartbeat. Even if my FIL wasn't offering to buy me a new one.


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## RedRanger (Nov 17, 2008)

You can indeed burn that old stove hot and clean and see no visible smoke from the chimney.  I know because that is what I used to do with my old PE insert.  But the burn times are very short.  And the amount of wood "gobbled up" is another issue.

It is still early in the season, but it appears to me that I`m going to use about 30% less wood this year and get a whole lot more heat in the process with my new epa insert.  And an added bonus-just checked the chimney today, and no cresote. Not even at the very top and around the chimney cap-"and this is an exterior chimney with full ss liner.

Your call of course, and admitingly, that is a beaufiful old stove.  For that reason, I will only partially agree with brother bart,in that if I were parting with my cash?  Maybe not?  But seeing as how your fil is footing the bill.  I would have done it already ;-)


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## Andy99 (Nov 17, 2008)

you will be much happier with a brand new stove.


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## jotul8e2 (Nov 18, 2008)

If I understand you, you have "stove" with no glass, just a mesh screen in the door.  That isn't a stove, its a fireplace!

Ok, so on the one hand, you have a cast iron "stove" with no way to control the combustion air, a crack in the casting that is a (slight, but real) fire hazard and would create a risk of carbon monoxide poisoning were the glass to be replaced, and burns about 1/2 again as much wood for a given heat output as an EPA rated stove while generating many times more pollutants.  On the other hand, you have someone who will pay for a new stove that is safe, efficient, and can be expected to give 20+ years of service.

What to do... What to do....

There is apparently a considerable market for antique stoves, particularly anything with nickle plating.  Restored, they bring quite attractive prices.  I think a few hundred dollars and a fair amount of time would make the old stove a beautiful item and it would be worth a considerable amount.  I still would not want to use it as a major heat source - but fully repaired/restored it would be great for the occasional bit of atmosphere.

Mark


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## Jimbob (Nov 18, 2008)

Looking @ the pics above, it looks like the stove HAS on occasion spilled smoke into the house. The dark stains above both loading doors seem to indicate this.

Here are a couple of stoves that LOOK like cast-iron stoves, and burn very efficient. They can also be installed close to the wall behind them.

http://pacificenergy.net/product_alderleaT6.php

http://www.drolet.ca/product.aspx?CategoId=1&Id=171&Page=spec


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## Jimbob (Nov 18, 2008)

.....And here's  another:
http://www.hampton-fire.com/Wood/Stoves/H300/index.php

If you do get another stove, you should ditch that barometric damper in the stove pipe.


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## RonB (Nov 18, 2008)

Yes, replace the stove with a modern stove.  You will enjoy the benefits and probably more importantly, your father-in-law will rest easier and feel that his daughter will be in a safer environment.  Accept the gift graciously and pick a new stove with the character you desire--they are out there.  Your FIL will be proud everytime he sees your new stove and feels its' heat, knowing he played a part in providing it for you.


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## dankev (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for the responses. It sounds like we will be getting a new stove. I'm starting a new thread for questions related to that.


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## fishinpa (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't think you will regret getting a new EPA listed stove 1 bit, once you get see the benefits.

Now you have to go through the "cast iron or Steel" debate. I went with a steel, non-cat unit for the low maintenance aspect.

Happy hunting! 
(for the stove that is)

Here's a link to some of the EPA stove info. There's a link on this page with all the 'certified' units as well as a host of other basic info.
http://www.epa.gov/woodstoves/basic.html


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