# Power Costs



## stmar (Sep 17, 2014)

This is a bit off topic but reading a post someone mentioned that their electric bill was $900 for a month I thought my sister in Florida had a big bill at $450 a month and that was summer with a large house and AC units going most of the time. What are some of the electric bills around the country? I spend the following:
Electric = $50 - $70 per month depending on the season, we are on a water well and have a garden
Propane = $500 per year, about 300 gallons; central heat, gas dryer and cook stove, and we have a 1000 gallon tank
Pellets = $500 per year, 2 pallets, I think this saves me more than 300 gallons of propane. 
Just curious and if this is not appropriate for this site you can delete this post.


----------



## mr47930 (Sep 17, 2014)

We have electric EVERYTHING. Our 3200 sq ft house electric bills this summer averages ~$180. We have dual heat pumps and AC units so that helps keep the costs down. Last winter I almost threw up when i opened the $650 electric bill. Granted it was a rough winter but still hard to shell out the cash. Hence why we bought a pellet stove this summer. I plan on saving some $$ this winter in electric bills and also plan on the house being a comfortable ~70F instead of the 63F that we were keeping it at with the electric.


----------



## TimfromMA (Sep 17, 2014)

My rough numbers:

electric: $75 - $100 per month
heating oil: 300 gallons per year = $970 as of last fill
pellets: 3 1/2 tons per year = $1200 based on recent pellet purchases


----------



## stmar (Sep 17, 2014)

mr47930 said:


> We have electric EVERYTHING. Our 3200 sq ft house electric bills this summer averages ~$180. We have dual heat pumps and AC units so that helps keep the costs down. Last winter I almost threw up when i opened the $650 electric bill. Granted it was a rough winter but still hard to shell out the cash. Hence why we bought a pellet stove this summer. I plan on saving some $$ this winter in electric bills and also plan on the house being a comfortable ~70F instead of the 63F that we were keeping it at with the electric.


That reminds me of an incident about 30 years ago. Bought a house that was all electric baseboard heat. Winter came and we wanted to see how "efficient" it was so kept the heat comfortable; bill came and it was very very reasonable, next month also very very reasonable, same all winter. In the spring I get a call from the power company, they had been "estimating" my bill because they could not get out there to read the meter, then when they did read it they thought it was wrong, etc, etc. etc. Long story short I owed them over $500 and that was big bucks back then. That was my impetus to get into the pellet burner club and have been burning them ever since.


----------



## BrotherBart (Sep 17, 2014)

Moving to the Inglenook where it is more appropriate for discussion.


----------



## peakbagger (Sep 17, 2014)

In some areas in the west power was so cheap that many of the homes weren't insulated. When I first moved to northern NH I rented an apartment in an old building. I kept the heat at 50 degrees during the day and heated one room to 65 degree in the evening. My winter power bills were $200 20 years ago. The landlord switched it to oil after I moved out and the heating contractor ran out of room to hang baseboard.


----------



## Chimney Smoke (Sep 17, 2014)

I've only been in my current house for a year but here's my estimates:
Electric - around $60/month on average - a little lower in the spring and a little higher in summer with the bedroom AC running
Oil - for heat and hot water over 12 months we burned about 400 gallons so probably $1300
Wood - Last year purchased 3 cord $660, this year it's all from my own land or scrounged and we'll be burning more so the oil will go down a bit.


----------



## yrock87 (Sep 18, 2014)

In my 2000 sqft 5 star 10 year old 3 bed home, I spend around $100 on electric. And mind you we are light users. 350 kwh vs 750 average last month . (20.5 cents per kwh) 

Water(plus sewer) was nearly $100 at a 2200 gallons last month.

Oil is $4 a gallon delivered. I have not owned this house for a winter yet but the previous owners used 1800 Gallons for each of the last few years. So about $7200.

I just got my P-43 and spent $2400 on 8 tons and hope that will drop my oil bill down to about $2500.

Even Internet is expensive here at $89 for 200GB at 12 MBs.


----------



## DAKSY (Sep 18, 2014)

Electric averages $60/month.
Oil - budget plan - $40/month for 10 months for DHW
Pellets - up to 10 tons - $2600 for 6/months = $433/month
LP - showers, fireplace & FPI $150/month
about $5524/year.
Adding radiant flooring next month, so the oil bill may jump for a while, 
but I also have plans to add a pellet boiler into the system to knock 
the oil bill back down...

Oooo! 5000 posts!


----------



## jharkin (Sep 18, 2014)

The numbers alone I think dont do much for comparison.  Also helps to know usage and cost/unit - plus the size of the house and household.

Here:
Family of 4
1400 sq foot house built in the 18th century.  Upgraded with insulation but nowhere near modern levels (maybe an effective R10 in the walls and R20 to R30 in the roof)
Gas/steam heat, gas indirect hot water, gas cooking range, electric dryer.
window ACs
woodstove that we supplement with for heat on weekends

My costs:


Gas:

we pay around $1 to $1.20 per them with delivery charges averaged year round.  Cost of gas is a little higher in winter and the delivery charges are tiered and decrease with use.
We burn about 25-30 therm a month for DHW and cooking year round. Add to that about 450-650 therm over the winter months for heat (depending on how cold and how much wood supplement).
Bills thus run about $35 in summer and peak around $180 in Jan/Feb.

Wood - We burn 1-2 cords a year.  Some I have to buy some I scrounge.  Ive averaged around 200-250 for the wood I had to buy but Im getting more and more of it free now.

Electric:

We pay about $0.18 / kWh
We use about 600-700KWh/month in winter and 800-1200 a month in summer depenidng on AC and dehumidifier load.  the big hog is the basement dehumidifier at 300KWh a month, and that cant be eliminated without a massive reconstruction of hte old stone basement.
Bills thus run $100-120 in winter up to as much as $180 in summer.

I went and totaled the bills for Jan-Dec 2013:

electric: $1750
gas: $1100
wood: $250
*Total $3100*


----------



## stmar (Sep 18, 2014)

We use about 500 KWh per month and are on a co-op; well, water heater and AC (had the AC on 2 times this year!!) are on grid power with capability of putting the well on alternative if the apocalypse happens. Our house is about 2000 sf, very well insulated and tight, that is why we only use about 300 gallons of propane even though the central heat, clothes dryer and cook stove use gas. A well insulated house is also why we use less than 2 pallets of pellets per year.


----------



## bassJAM (Sep 18, 2014)

I've got an 1800 sq-ft ranch built in 1987.  Electric bill stays flat around $160 all year, but I like to get the house cold in the summer at night, and in the winter I heat 100% with wood (around 3 cords) once the daytime temps drop into the 50's, only running the HVAC fan to circulate the heat.  Seems I use about 1300 kWh a month.

It's interesting to look back on the usage history, I only used around 800-900 kWh/month back when I was single.  I guess the TV being on more, with more hot showers and laundry/dryer usage adds that up.  And I can't stop my wife from turning EVERY SINGLE LIGHT ON in the house the second she gets home!

I also see electric costs have gone up quite a bit.  December of 2012 I used the same amount of electricity as last month, but my bill was only $130 compared to $162.  I'm curious what will happen once the coal electricity plants are shut down by me by the EPA.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 18, 2014)

I won't post my usage numbers here, for fear jebatty's head will explode, but we pay about $.168/kWh for our electric.  Woodgeek tells me I can do better (locally), but that's where we stand.

I fell, buck, haul, and split most of my own wood, so that's free.  However, I did buy 4 cords (small supplement) of rounds this year at $75 - $100 / cord.

Here's a summary of the fuels I'm currently using:

Cord wood:  avg. $25/cord ?
Electric:  $0.168/kWh
Oil:  $3.24/gal
Propane:  $2.05/gal

I would be happy if we could get our energy costs down to 3x jharkin's.


----------



## jharkin (Sep 18, 2014)

Joful said:


> I would be happy if we could get our energy costs down to 3x jharkin's.




And the scary thing I get nag letters from NStar monthly telling me I rank something like 90 out of 100 for most energy consumption of households my size.

Sure a lot of it for you and I is due to the age of our homes.... But still I look at some of the low usage numbers posted around here and wonder how the heck do they do it?  No kids? Reading by candle? using a clothesline? throw out the TV?


----------



## Ashful (Sep 18, 2014)

On heating, I'm right there with you.  On electric usage, I know exactly where mine is going, everytime I walk into an unoccupied room and see a dozen lights and TV left on.


----------



## yrock87 (Sep 18, 2014)

jharkin said:


> And the scary thing I get nag letters from NStar monthly telling me I rank something like 90 out of 100 for most energy consumption of households my size.
> 
> Sure a lot of it for you and I is due to the age of our homes.... But still I look at some of the low usage numbers posted around here and wonder how the heck do they do it?  No kids? Reading by candle? using a clothesline? throw out the TV?


 
I spent the money to convert all of my lights to LED.  around 90% anyways,  the rest are CLF.   I am trying to find some leds for the appliances.  i know it is silly to spend $20 to change out 3x 40 watt bulbs in my fridge, but i hate the idea of wasting 120 watts each time I open the dang thing up!  i realized how much those lights draw when the fridge was accidently left cracked open last year and the yoghurt on the top shelf by the light was hot to the touch!  nothing else spoiled except for that yoghurt!    

lights are a huge draw, i converted 40 lights to LED. if the average incondecent used 60 watts, and i left each one on for 2 hours each day, that is 4.8 kwh per day!  times 30 days and you are using 150 kwh a month on just lights.  with LEDs at 8watts, i am using just .8 kwh a day, totaling 24 kwh a month.  not a small decrease.  and since the LED are supposed to last 10-20 years, opposed to 1-2, i consider the price difference negligable.

the cheapest watt is the one you never have to buy!


----------



## jharkin (Sep 18, 2014)

I already converted 95% of the house to CFL and LED.  As of this year over half is LED in fact.  I only have 2 incans left in an exterior motion sensor flood.  A couple years ago I started with all the can lights in the kitchen/dinging and got 3 of the Philips L prize bulbs to replace the most used reading lights in the living rooms. Added a bunch more of those philips 11w LEDs this year.

We have a very small house.  Not a lot of light fixtures to start with and our average daily use is 4x15w LED can lights in the kitchen for a couple hours at breakfast and dinner, then in the evening there are 3-5 table lamps with 11w LED bulbs on till we all go to bed around 1030pm.  If I work in the shop there is a couple more hours that 6 or 8 LED fixtures are on.  All told Id be suprised if Im using more than ~ 25KWh/month for lighting. I think the network cabinet with the Verizon fiber optic terminal & wifi router and the cabletv boxes that never truly turn off eat more power than the lights do.

Our problems are 
-  The dehumidifier
- Kids watch waaaay to much TV
- laundry

I'm starting to go around the house with the kill-a-watt to find out whats really sucking the juice.  Im afraid to hook it up to the TV


----------



## Ashful (Sep 18, 2014)

It costs a certain amount of money to operate our utilities, and I'm talking more about indirect costs (administration, billing, etc.) than direct cost.  Cut mass consumption, and you'll see rates rise correspondingly.  Please don't do that to me.


----------



## bassJAM (Sep 18, 2014)

What do you guys who are using LED's think about the light output?  Growing up with the warm glow of incandescents, the CFL's seemed a little odd at first.  But now my house is 100% CFL except for 2 motion flood lights outside that are LED.  And those suckers are blindingly bright!

I'm not sure if it's worth the cost to change out to LED's, I don't think they are a whole lot more efficient than CFL's, at least when compared to an incandescent bulb.  Although if they really get the long life they're claiming it might be worth it.  No matter what they say about the life of a CFL bulb, it seems they last 2-3 years at best.


----------



## yrock87 (Sep 18, 2014)

bassJAM said:


> What do you guys who are using LED's think about the light output?  Growing up with the warm glow of incandescents, the CFL's seemed a little odd at first.  But now my house is 100% CFL except for 2 motion flood lights outside that are LED.  And those suckers are blindingly bright!
> 
> I'm not sure if it's worth the cost to change out to LED's, I don't think they are a whole lot more efficient than CFL's, at least when compared to an incandescent bulb.  Although if they really get the long life they're claiming it might be worth it.  No matter what they say about the life of a CFL bulb, it seems they last 2-3 years at best.


 
 part of the problem with CFL is that all florecents hate to cycle.  the average life spane estimates are for turning the lights on once a day, and off once a day.  so if you have cfl in your bathroom that a family of 4 uses 20 times a day for 3 minutes, it will kill the CFL well before it's stated service life.  LEDs suposedly do not have that problem.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 18, 2014)

Just repeating what I've heard repeating here many times, not speaking from personal experience, but the oft-repeated advice is to wait for your CFL's to burn out and then replace them with LED's.  The cost analysis I've seen hasn't supported swapping out functional CFL's for LED's, due to the small incremental change in operating cost.


----------



## yrock87 (Sep 18, 2014)

Joful said:


> Just repeating what I've heard repeating here many times, not speaking from personal experience, but the oft-repeated advice is to wait for your CFL's to burn out and then replace them with LED's.  The cost analysis I've seen hasn't supported swapping out functional CFL's for LED's, due to the small incremental change in operating cost.


 i have heard this as well.  i was in the unfortunate position of moving into a rental last year that had ALL incondecents. so i now consider my light bulbs as i do any other household good.  something to bring with me when i move.  i bought my house this summer and had 90% of the LED bulbs i needed to swap out all of the incandecents in the new house! at $10-15 for a 60 watt LED, it is silly to leave it for the next guy!


----------



## stmar (Sep 18, 2014)

I think conservation is the only way to save much, we are not in control of the rate increases and the war on coal is just now ramping up. I am in a co-op, we are the stock holders, and even we are faced with mounting costs not in our control. I have CFLs, alternative, solar, battery bank and we try not to waste. 500 KWh is about the best we can do. I guess I could turn off the computer but then I would not be able to communicate with you good people, lol.
CFLs did take some getting use to but now they seem normal.


----------



## jharkin (Sep 18, 2014)

bassJAM said:


> What do you guys who are using LED's think about the light output?  Growing up with the warm glow of incandescents, the CFL's seemed a little odd at first.  But now my house is 100% CFL except for 2 motion flood lights outside that are LED.  And those suckers are blindingly bright!



The new generation of LEDs are fantastic.  Light quality is much better than CFL, clost to incan if you get the good ones.

I did a little write up when I got my first L-prize lamps to see if I liked LED.  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/philips-l-prize-lamp.101671/
I now also have a lot of the current design phillips A19 LED that replaced it... cheaper, but not as good in terms of lumens and CRI.  But still better than a CFL to my eyes.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised if you stick to good brands - Philips, Cree, Lighting Science.



bassJAM said:


> I'm not sure if it's worth the cost to change out to LED's, I don't think they are a whole lot more efficient than CFL's, at least when compared to an incandescent bulb.  Although if they really get the long life they're claiming it might be worth it.  No matter what they say about the life of a CFL bulb, it seems they last 2-3 years at best.





Joful said:


> Just repeating what I've heard repeating here many times, not speaking from personal experience, but the oft-repeated advice is to wait for your CFL's to burn out and then replace them with LED's.  The cost analysis I've seen hasn't supported swapping out functional CFL's for LED's, due to the small incremental change in operating cost.




True, the current LEDs dont have that much of an edge on CFLs but like a lot of folks my CFLs where burning out far short of their rated life.  That plus dealing with the warmup time and poor light was enough to make it worth the investment IMHO.


----------



## begreen (Sep 19, 2014)

Like early CFLs I am finding new LED bulbs a mixed bag. The light quality varies from nice to ghastly and the court is out still on their actual, in-use lifespan. I have been having good luck with the latest generation of CFLs. The light is warmer and the lifespan is good. We only have these bulbs in areas where the lights stay on for hours, so 15 seconds of warmup time is a non-issue.  In the house we also have 6 LED bulbs including 2 new floods from GE purchased a few days ago. The new GE's have an unnatural light. They're supposed to be 2700K but are not what I would call warm white. They may end up in the garage where no one cares about the light quality. We do have a couple Feit LED floods in the kitchen that have a much better quality of light. The bulbs have been dated and we'll see how well they last. If they are truly long life then the CFLs will (eventually) be phased out there.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 19, 2014)

I'm so old school I'm still irritated by "Soft White" incandescents.  99% of the bulbs in my house are clear glass incandescent.


----------



## bassJAM (Sep 19, 2014)

Joful said:


> Just repeating what I've heard repeating here many times, not speaking from personal experience, but the oft-repeated advice is to wait for your CFL's to burn out and then replace them with LED's.  The cost analysis I've seen hasn't supported swapping out functional CFL's for LED's, due to the small incremental change in operating cost.



That's kind of what I was thinking.  When I bought my house, 60% of the fixtures already had cfl's, and the rest were empty.  Our power company gives you a "free" box of cfl's when you move in, and since I have 2 separate circuits for the house and shed, I got 2 boxes and decided to go 100% cfl at the house.  Now their starting to burn out, and I've just been picked up more cfl's, mostly because it's hard to spend $12 on a single LED.  But I was an early adapter back when LED flashlights were first coming out, and those bulbs lasted pretty much forever.  I might have to start swapping bulbs that the wife tends to leave on the most as they burn out.


----------



## jharkin (Sep 19, 2014)

Joful said:


> I'm so old school I'm still irritated by "Soft White" incandescents.  99% of the bulbs in my house are clear glass incandescent.




Shouldnt you be reading by candles and Whale oil lamps?


----------



## brian89gp (Sep 19, 2014)

$0.12 kWh
$0.56 CCF natural gas

Peak at around 550 CCF per month of natural gas in the winter and 3300 kWh electricity in the summer.  Natural gas is so cheap anymore I stopped burning wood for now since 7-8+ cords per year is very difficult to process and store on a smaller city lot.

Yearly:
Electrical    $3200
Gas    $2000


----------



## Ashful (Sep 19, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Shouldnt you be reading by candles and Whale oil lamps?


Well, if we're going to be proper, my house pre-dates the commercial success of oil lamps in mid-Atlantic America, so we'd be reading solely by candle.  Yes, we sometimes do that, but usually only when the power goes out.


----------



## jharkin (Sep 19, 2014)

Joful said:


> Well, if we're going to be proper, my house pre-dates the commercial success of oil lamps in mid-Atlantic America, so we'd be reading solely by candle.  Yes, we sometimes do that, but usually only when the power goes out.




What years did whale oil lamps come out acutally?  I might be candle era as well


----------



## jharkin (Sep 19, 2014)

brian89gp said:


> Peak at around 550 CCF per month of natural gas in the winter and 3300 kWh electricity in the summer.



1 CCF = 1 therm  (100kBTU) correct?

May I ask, how big is your house?  500+  therms a month is a tremendous amount of gas, even for old drafty cnostruction.  You must have a pretty big gas meter....


----------



## brian89gp (Sep 19, 2014)

jharkin said:


> 1 CCF = 1 therm (100kBTU) correct?
> May I ask, how big is your house? 500+ therms a month is a tremendous amount of gas, even for old drafty cnostruction. You must have a pretty big gas meter....



Yep.  The biggest one the gas company has for residential use.  Have two 100k 80% furnaces that run 24/7 when it gets down in the single digits.  2400sq/ft finished space, 1200sq/ft basement, and all exterior walls are solid masonry (plaster on brick interior) with zero insulation.  Virtually zero drafts, just a large house with heat sinks for walls.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 19, 2014)

jharkin said:


> What years did whale oil lamps come out acutally?  I might be candle era as well


I know whale oil lamps were being used well before the American Revolution, but I believe the whale oil was not often available to the countryside north and west of Philadelphia.  It was a European and New England commodity.

Around here, it was candles, until the kerosene lamps became popular in the generation following the American Revolution.


----------



## Swedishchef (Sep 19, 2014)

Everyone may hate me for saying this but... $0.068/kWh, $250 for a cord of wood.

3 cords per year: $750
Electricity (April 2013-April 2014): $1172.
Total: $1972.

That is total energy costs for a house that is 1300 sq ft (the basement is heated as well, that's where my stove is located). Not to mention my wife / 2 kids are home all day long (so we heat it 24/7...I tend to turn down the heat if nobody is in the house slightly) and the price includes hot water.

Andrew


----------



## yrock87 (Sep 20, 2014)

Swedishchef said:


> Everyone may hate me for saying this but... $0.068/kWh, $250 for a cord of wood.
> 
> 3 cords per year: $750
> Electricity (April 2013-April 2014): $1172.
> ...


Hate is a strong word....  ;-)


----------



## Rossco (Sep 20, 2014)

About $130 - $150 per 1/4 for electricity. 

No idea on average GAS as we have a Condensor. Last month we used $5 in gas. 

Wood is ALL gathered by me. Something like $150 - $250 in Petrol. That's for around 7-8 cord.


----------



## Swedishchef (Sep 20, 2014)

yrock87 said:


> Hate is a strong word....  ;-)


Dislike


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Sep 20, 2014)

Swedishchef said:


> Dislike


envy?  $2011.00 oil, $1155.00 electric, $775.00 wood and canawick brick.$4000.00 in round figure. so take your stinkin hydro and enjoy it(sarc). only 3 people in 4000 sq ft. nothing but envy in this corner of the room.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 20, 2014)

I can post some numbers that would make you feel better, if you like, Doug.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Sep 20, 2014)

Joful said:


> I can post some numbers that would make you feel better, if you like, Doug.


fellowship of the les miz I guess. isn't that what the music says?


----------



## Swedishchef (Sep 20, 2014)

I am fortunate..too bad I don't appreciate it. once I move I'll regret not appreciating it


----------



## jharkin (Sep 20, 2014)

Considering my entire house could fit in some of your living rooms, these numbers don't seem outrageous.....


----------



## Redbarn (Sep 20, 2014)

Finally had to join in the fun...

We spent 3 years fixing and insulating to get down to:
4 tons pellets ( $975 as bought them in April)
475 galls of oil @ 3.45 ($1640)  Used to be 1750 galls plus..
3 chords of wood (sorta free if I forget about the depreciation of splitter, tractor, chainsaw etc)
$105 per month electricity ( about constant all year around), say $1260

We are 4000 sq ft of early 1800s Federal.

4 years ago we used 2000+ galls of oil so the above figures represent progress.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 21, 2014)

Last year:

6 cords of wood = free, if I ignore the cost of gas and equipment
1100 gal. oil = $3650
150 gal. propane = $300
20,000 kWh electric = $3350

Believe it or not, we had done a lot to tighten up the house prior to last winter... the numbers used to be worse, per HDD.  The last owner of this house owned an oil company, so energy conservation was not a factor in their renovations.


----------



## begreen (Sep 21, 2014)

Well done Redburn. For a big barn that is pretty good.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Sep 22, 2014)

Joful said:


> Last year:
> 
> 6 cords of wood = free, if I ignore the cost of gas and equipment
> 1100 gal. oil = $3650
> ...


wow? what happens when you cut the electric to norm? my guess is that you become a thermal death stat. big ole houses great but at a cost, eh. no envy in this corner anymore!


----------



## jharkin (Sep 22, 2014)

I dont want to speak for Joful, but I think the size of his place and hte stone construction are bigger factors in his numbers than just the age.   If you normalized it for square footage he probably is doing fairly good considering the age of house.

In fact if we calculate BTU/HDD/ft2 my place probably ranks right up there with Joful.  I was consuming around 15  BTU/HDD/ft2 gross (about 12 on a net basis after stack losses) when I moved in... got that down to around 11 gross/9 net  with insulation upgrades, and that is likely as good as its ever gonna get here.

Modern code and super efficient heating gets under 5 I believe??....


----------



## Ashful (Sep 22, 2014)

Good point, Jeremy!  I could do the same calculation, but the BTU's used would be a bit of a guess, as I use far more BTU's when heating with wood versus heating with oil and propane.  I attribute this to the fact that when heating with oil, the house is allowed to go cold overnight and during the work day.  When heating with wood, I need to keep a fire going all night and all day, so it's warm when I wake up / get home.  If we let our house go cold, the two stoves don't have the horsepower to bring temps back up.

I'm also not sure how many sq.ft. I'm really heating, as there is a 1800 sq.ft. discrepancy between my realtor, appraiser, and tax man.  My own numbers put us around 6660 sq.ft., soon to be 7860 sq.ft. with the addition we're currently planning.


----------



## jharkin (Sep 22, 2014)

Joful said:


> I'm also not sure how many sq.ft. I'm really heating, as there is a 1800 sq.ft. discrepancy between my realtor, appraiser, and tax man.  My own numbers put us around 6660 sq.ft., soon to be 7860 sq.ft. with the addition we're currently planning.




See by that logic maybe I'm even more wasteful. Multiplying my 3k bills by the difference in our square footage would come up with something like $12-14k. 


Right now I can only dream of haivng tje kind of space you guys have... someday....


----------



## Redbarn (Sep 22, 2014)

Joful raises a good point. What is the heated square footage of an old house ?
If I measure the outside perimeter, I get the largest number. But with 2 foot thick walls, the interior number is quite different. 
Then if the unused spaces such as closed cavities, bricked up chimneys etc. are subtracted, the number drops further. 
Using the exterior dimensions, the BTU/HDD/ft2 is ok but using a number calculated from   usable interior measurements, it is not so rosy.


----------



## Ashful (Sep 22, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Right now I can only dream of haivng tje kind of space you guys have... someday....


I'm looking forward to downsizing someday.  More square footage just means more to clean, paint, and repair.  I came close to full panic attack shortly after moving in, and getting a good handle on just how many windows needed a full rebuild.


----------



## brian89gp (Sep 22, 2014)

jharkin said:


> I dont want to speak for Joful, but I think the size of his place and hte stone construction are bigger factors in his numbers than just the age.   If you normalized it for square footage he probably is doing fairly good considering the age of house.
> 
> In fact if we calculate BTU/HDD/ft2 my place probably ranks right up there with Joful.  I was consuming around 15  BTU/HDD/ft2 gross (about 12 on a net basis after stack losses) when I moved in... got that down to around 11 gross/9 net  with insulation upgrades, and that is likely as good as its ever gonna get here.
> 
> Modern code and super efficient heating gets under 5 I believe??....



11.08  BTU/HDD/ft2  for my place.  Not bad considering there is zero wall insulation as it is solid masonry...guess relative lack of air infiltration goes a long way.

3600sq/ft (basement is technically conditioned space)
4711 HDD
188,043,700 heating season BTU


----------



## Redbarn (Sep 22, 2014)

Ok, I fired up my energy use spreadsheet and I get low 9's BTU/HDD/ft2 if I use the perimeter square footage of our place. 
I guess it's time for another IR camera session in January to see if there is any obvious, fixable heat losses left to be found. I suspect that we are solidly on a path of diminishing returns...


----------



## Fi-Q (Sep 22, 2014)

Swedishchef said:


> Everyone may hate me for saying this but... $0.068/kWh, $250 for a cord of wood.
> 
> 3 cords per year: $750
> Electricity (April 2013-April 2014): $1172.
> ...


 

Andrew, they are going to hate me as well......

3 to 5 Cords a year: Free !!
Electricity:  now on a flat rate of 92$ / month, but at $0.068/kWh, it is still 1352 kwh per month, still too much.... but everything here is electric (range, oven, hot water heater).

That is total energy costs for a house that is 2000 sq ft (plus the basement, 1000sqft, is heated as well, that's where my stove is located). Not to mention my wife / 3 kids are home all day long (so we heat it 24/7...I tend to turn down the heat if nobody is in the house slightly) and the price includes hot water.

So my total energy bills:
Electricity: 1104$
I guess I will add 40$ of propane for the gas BBQ 

So total energy bill for one year is under 1200$.

I am still try to convince myself of investing in a wood boiler, I am trying real hard.... but I am not there yet.........


----------



## yrock87 (Sep 23, 2014)

let see, 249,660,000 btu per year/ 12,636 hdd / 2455 sqr feet if you include the garage gives me 8.6.  at the stack.  or 199,728,000/ 6.4 actualized with my 80% boiler.  Also includes my DHW

not too bad, but my next home i hope to get well below that.


----------



## yrock87 (Sep 23, 2014)

also, i expect the above numbers to change as the BTUs were the previous owner.  I have added the pellet stove to the mix and expect that i will be smarter with my temperature settings.  The house has 3 temp zones in the house, plus the garage, and the previous owner had all 4 'stats set to 70 every day all day.


----------



## TMonter (Sep 23, 2014)

yrock87 said:


> also, i expect the above numbers to change as the BTUs were the previous owner.  I have added the pellet stove to the mix and expect that i will be smarter with my temperature settings.  The house has 3 temp zones in the house, plus the garage, and the previous owner had all 4 'stats set to 70 every day all day.



Family of 6 here so that means 2+ loads of dishes and 2-4 loads of laundry daily. Average power bill is between $90 and 120 per month and that includes natural gas for the hot water. Average power use is between 600 and 800 kWh depending on the month. Heat is 100% wood with the furnace set at 55 to prevent freezing if we are away. House is 2300 square feet and fairly well insulated. R40 ceilings, R13 walls, new windows in the past 5 years.


----------



## Cynnergy (Sep 24, 2014)

Family of 2:

House in town - 1000 sq ft 2002-built 1/2 duplex.  $91/month electricity bill (all electric house).  I work from home so have the heat on during the day - if it weren't for that it would be about $78/month.  Rates start at $0.0752/kWh and then go to $0.1127/kWh after the first 1350 kWh/month.  Only downside is the neighbour who owns the other 1/2 of the duplex has 3 giant German Shepherds that try to kill our cat at every opportunity (and the dogs can be really noisy early in the morning).

Weekend cabin - 900 sq ft 1950's 1 1/2 story off-grid house.  Small amount of insulation in walls, none in floors or attic (thinking about it - floor will likely be done soon, the attic is more complicated).  About 1.5 cords/yr, stove oil ~$1000/yr (that's cooking, heat and hot water for the months we can't just have solar showers and cook on the BBQ), electricity - um, complicated.  We pay $1000/yr but Mom and Dad subsidize massively (also thinking about our own off-grid renewable electricity system - haven't taken the plunge yet as finances are still tight after reno-ing the cabin itself).  I don't feel entirely that having parental subsidy is a cop-out as they are the ones who refuse to consider renewables to get the generator bill down.  If we are comparing expensive/embarrassing bills, the generator fuel bill (diesel) is $30 000/yr, and that is split (unevenly) between 5 households.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Sep 24, 2014)

this will make the solar folks happy! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



http://www.wcvb.com/money/national-...m=facebook&utm_campaign=wcvb+channel+5+boston. read earlier today , the rate payers on Nantucket will increase 100%. total kw cost out there $.24+. there will be as many solar ads as political ads. claim is not enough pipeline capacity for nat gas and closing plants. all this with gas as cheap as it has been in years. sounds like a really good plan from where I sit.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Sep 24, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> this will make the solar folks happy!



The article referenced National Grid (electric utility serving most of Mass excepting Boston) forecasting winter electric rates to increase by 37%. Their spokeswoman states this is due to higher anticipated energy supply costs. That's Utility Speak for "The Generators are charging more so we'll be passing that higher cost right on to you". Noteworthy is the last sentence in the article which says Natural Gas customers may see their winter bill slightly lower.

This may make you mad, but it all really does make sense. The last 15 years has seen the closure (retirement) of a dozen+ large old power plants (all coal & oil, possibly VT Yankee too) in the North East. All replaced (if replaced) by small higher efficiency combined cycle combustion turbines. All these are powered by natural gas, but some jurisdictions have mandated dual fuel (#2 oil) capability with several days supply on site. Some jurisdictions have actually prohibited the dual fuel capability for fear of any oil spills (much to the happiness of the builder as his costs are much lower).

This was generally considered positive as the cleaner fuel was used in an ever larger percentage of the "Electric Generation" pie. The price went up a bit but probably not as much as if all the old plants were re-powered with "clean tech".

Unfortunately along comes a colder than average winter and the Nat Gas pipelines into NE are already running at capacity on a good day. OFO's are issued, home heat customers get priority, industrial buyers get supply cut, all the Turbines who can must switch to Oil at a 300% fuel cost increase, and the Electric Utility simply passes the cost on to the customer in the next bill.

The real danger was last winter when ISO-NE had real concerns about Capacity and Reserve Shortages, and were steps away from implementing power reduction procedures, which always include brownouts and/or rolling blackouts. If you hear any news releases about "record gas sendouts" at the same time they are talking about frozen harbors & rivers preventing #2 oil barge deliveries, get your generators ready.


----------



## jharkin (Sep 24, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> The article referenced National Grid (electric utility serving most of Mass excepting Boston)



NStar services much of greater Boston west to Worcester, all of the Cape and about half the south shore with Electric and Gas.  By population, NatGrid probably only has about half the state.  

NatGrid tends to raise rates more than NStar, and they seem to get hit worse with outages in storms. Im glad to be in NStar territory...


----------



## Rossco (Sep 24, 2014)

Dont know what's more scary?

Some of the energy bill's, Or the fact some people know how much they use to the nearest .00%

I suppose if u went onto my providers websites, logged in to my account, I could get those figures for the annum.


----------



## ironpony (Sep 24, 2014)

My rate on St. Croix is .57 cents per KWH. luckily we only need lights, no heating or cooling..


----------



## Ashful (Sep 24, 2014)

Rossco said:


> I suppose if u went onto my providers websites, logged in to my account, I could get those figures for the annum.


That's where I get them.  I'm not out there standing by the meter with pencil and paper.



ironpony said:


> My rate on St. Croix is .57 cents per KWH. luckily we only need lights, no heating or cooling..


At that rate, I'd be paying over $11,000 per year for electric!


----------



## BrotherBart (Sep 24, 2014)

Rossco said:


> Dont know what's more scary?
> 
> Some of the energy bill's, Or the fact some people know how much they use to the nearest .00%
> 
> I suppose if u went onto my providers websites, logged in to my account, I could get those figures for the annum.



Wanna know how much we use hourly, daily? The whole house monitor sitting on my desk will tell ya.

300 watts an hour at the moment. $.04 and hour.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Sep 24, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> The article referenced National Grid (electric utility serving most of Mass excepting Boston) forecasting winter electric rates to increase by 37%.





jharkin said:


> NStar services much of greater Boston west to Worcester, all of the Cape and about half the south shore with Electric and Gas.  By population, NatGrid probably only has about half the state.



Yup, agreed. 
http://www.nstar.com/about_nstar/service_territory.asp
https://www.nationalgridus.com/non_html/shared_about_svcmap_meco.pdf


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Sep 25, 2014)

jharkin said:


> NStar services much of greater Boston west to Worcester, all of the Cape and about half the south shore with Electric and Gas.  By population, NatGrid probably only has about half the state.
> 
> NatGrid tends to raise rates more than NStar, and they seem to get hit worse with outages in storms. Im glad to be in NStar territory...


just a heads up, your increase coming out in jan., nasty grid nov. nasty grid current electric cost $.08277, nstar $.09379. historically one will mirror the other.


----------



## woodgeek (Sep 28, 2014)

Aah bills.  Family of 4, 2250 sq ft 1960 split-level house in Philly 'burbs, 2 small cars.  Recreational wood burning 0.2 cords/yr.

In 2007, before energy upgrades:
Annual home usage was 8000 kWh elec, and 1350 gal heating oil.
Cars usage: 15000 mi at 25 mpg = 600 gal gas (12 gal/wk).
Operating Cost (at *current* prices): 8000*0.124 = $992, 1350*$3.75 = $5072 + $200 service, 600*3.50 = $2100
Total for home and vehicle energy, using 2006 equipment: $*8364*/yr, or $700/mo  
Nearly all fossil energy, ~28 tons of CO2 emitted/yr.  About -$2000/yr to US trade balance.

Actually had home energy upgrades, converted house to all electric, switched supply to $0.124/kWh 100% wind power, leased 1 EV.
In 2014, annual usage is:
Annual house usage is 15500 kWh elec, not including EV.  Period.
Cars usage: EV goes 10,000 mi/year @ 3.6kWh/mi(total) = 2850 kWh elec,  Mazda5 goes 3000 mi @ 22 mpg, 136 gals gas.
Operating cost (at *current* prices): 18150*0.124 = $2250, 136*$3.50 = $476
Total for home and vehicle energy, using 2014 equipment: $*2726*/yr, or $227/mo  
Nearly all wind power, ~1.6 tons of CO2/yr.  About -$150/yr to US trade balance.

Annual energy 'savings': $*5638*/yr, and +$1850/yr improvement to US balance of trade.
Clearly fixing the climate is technically impossible, will cost a bundle and will destroy the US economy.  

Disclosure: 
New HVAC/DHW equipment and energy retrofit cost ~$15k upfront (relative to planned conventional upgrades).  Maybe $2k total in govt and utility rebates.  Call it 3 years simple payback.
Assuming wind turbines are <10 years old, @2.2 cents/kWh, fed subsidy to turbine owners: up to $400/year for my power.
New EV lease cost $1200/yr more *net* than old gaswagon beater, including $7500 fed rebate to Nissan/dealer.
Operating cost of ASHP should include a $5-8k replacement cost on a 10-15 yr lifetime, call it $500/year.


----------



## woodgeek (Sep 28, 2014)

Doug MacIVER said:


> this will make the solar folks happy!  http://www.wcvb.com/money/national-grid-warns-of-much-higher-electric-costs-this-winter/28224678?utm_source=hootsuite&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=wcvb+channel+5+boston. read earlier today , the rate payers on Nantucket will increase 100%. total kw cost out there $.24+. there will be as many solar ads as political ads. claim is not enough pipeline capacity for nat gas and closing plants. all this with gas as cheap as it has been in years. sounds like a really good plan from where I sit.



Reading the comments on that article took me back to growing up in MA.  Crazy arguing with Crazy, and no-one actually knows what's going on!

Sounds to me like good old-fashioned poor management at the utilities!  

Frankly, makes me glad for deregulation here in PA.  I can contract my power supply with any of a couple dozen 'generators', for 2-3 years at a go, for 8-9 cents/kWh.  My (private) distributor charges me an amount for distribution that varies quarterly, currently about 4 cents/kWh, +$6/mo. The distributor rates are still publicly regulated.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Sep 28, 2014)

yo-yo principle. what goes down can and will come up. lowest nat gas price in 2012($2.00), electric price ntgrid $.0672. 2014 gas around $4.00 new electric projected $.115 not much of a mystery with coal gone and nuclear dwindling. i've always found Mass. alternative electric sources to be only slightly lower with far fewer choices than Pa. then there is my favorite pick upon cape wind adding to the load. at least the delivery load on the bill remains fairly constant. maybe this chart explains it better


----------

