# 1st night with 1150 gals. of heated storage



## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

Its nice not having to light a fire in the morning   My storage dropped  from 172  Â°F  to 154 Â°F  in 6 hrs.  hoping to make that less with insulating all the piping . I have about 50' of uninsulated  1-1/4" pex in my crawl space  and about 50' of uninsulated 1-1/4" copper in my shop.   Still need to automate most of the system. Was hoping to get NoFo control system  but have  not been able to make contact with him . Still learning how to operate it all correctly.  But havng a lot of fun doing it .

 :lol: 

Huff


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## Gasifier (Mar 3, 2012)

Congrats Huff. How did you make out with the insulation of the second tank? That should be a nice amount of water storage.


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## stee6043 (Mar 3, 2012)

Looks like your heat load is right around 23k btu/hr.  Get that storage up to 180 degrees and you can get a nice toasty 13 hours out of it before it drops to 150.  Welcome to the world of convenient firings...


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

Heres some pics.


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Looks like your heat load is right around 23k btu/hr.  Get that storage up to 180 degrees and you can get a nice toasty 13 hours out of it before it drops to 150.  Welcome to the world of convenient firings...



I guess thats not bad  considering I'm  heating  a  2800 Â² ft. house and a 1600 Â² ft. shop with suite. must tell that it isn't that cold here.  around 4 Â°C  average


Huff


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## woodsmaster (Mar 3, 2012)

Congrats! Do the tanks charge evenly for you ?


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> Congrats! Do the tanks charge evenly for you ?



Yes I have been amazed that they are charging  exactly the same so far.


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## ewdudley (Mar 3, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

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Just curious, how can you tell?


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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I have a raytec infrared gun and a  temperature gauge that I insert into temp.wells .   Do you think i'm not doing something right Ellliot? I have been known to do things the wrong way. lol.

Huff


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## ewdudley (Mar 3, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> I have a raytec infrared gun and a  temperature guage that I insert into temp.wells .   Do you think i'm not doing something right?


No, I used to move a mechanical gauge around from tank to tank and it looked OK, was just looking for a better way without adding a bunch of electronic sensors.  IR gun sounds like a great idea, thanks.

--ewd


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

I am charging right now


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

My boiler is Idling now and my storage temp is 176 Â°F  the eko controler display reads 194 Â°F  the system pressure is 22 psi. I wish I could get storage a bit higher

Huff


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## woodsmaster (Mar 3, 2012)

bigger circulater ? Insulation on the copper ?


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

There is a discrepancy between the controller  readout and the mechanical gauge on the boiler discharge.  Its about 6 Â°F  higher. on the readout .I think I remember some post about guys repositioning the thermocouple.


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## huffdawg (Mar 3, 2012)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Looks like your heat load is right around 23k btu/hr.  Get that storage up to 180 degrees and you can get a nice toasty 13 hours out of it before it drops to 150.  Welcome to the world of convenient firings...



Hey Stee can you show me the formula for your figures .  I'd like to learn how .

Huff


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## flyingcow (Mar 3, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> My boiler is Idling now and my storage temp is 176 Â°F  the eko controler display reads 194 Â°F  the system pressure is 22 psi. I wish I could get storage a bit higher
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> Huff



i don't have pressurized storage, so it's a little different. but for me, to push my tank that last 10 degrees(if i can hit 175ish, i'm happy), isn't worth the wood or idling. Unless it's -20f with a 15mph wind i usually don't push it. Those nights i got to push the boiler/tank. That comes from not having enough insulation and not sizing my storage properly. 


But, we're guys.......we're gonna push it. Did i ever tell you about the half a dozen times we drove from Maine to Fla for vaca(with 3 kids)? made better time each year. The minivan can go about 420 miles between fill-ups, and no pee breaks. It was a thing of beauty. sorry to get off topic. %-P


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## huffdawg (Mar 4, 2012)

flyingcow said:
			
		

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LOL.  With the wife driving and me drinking lite beer and three rugrats in the car  100km is pushing it  .


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## kopeck (Mar 4, 2012)

flyingcow said:
			
		

> i don't have pressurized storage, so it's a little different. but for me, to push my tank that last 10 degrees(if i can hit 175ish, i'm happy), isn't worth the wood or idling. Unless it's -20f with a 15mph wind i usually don't push it. Those nights i got to push the boiler/tank. That comes from not having enough insulation and not sizing my storage properly.
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> But, we're guys.......we're gonna push it. Did i ever tell you about the half a dozen times we drove from Maine to Fla for vaca(with 3 kids)? made better time each year. The minivan can go about 420 miles between fill-ups, and no pee breaks. It was a thing of beauty. sorry to get off topic. %-P



It's really interesting to hear you say that.  With my rig (same setup as yours) I can get to 177 pretty easily, it seems like the magic number.  Getting over that means quite a bit more wood and fan cycling.  I usually try to have just a bed of coals in it when I reach about 175 and call it good.

K


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## goosegunner (Mar 4, 2012)

Huff,

Sounds to me like you need to move more water and or reduce wood load near end of burn.

What is your return temp when storage is 176? 

I can take my my storage to 185 easily. The trick is to have your burn be winding down as you approach target temp. That way you are not hitting the set point and idling. It takes longer but your boiler output is low.

I have a spread sheet that I calculate amount of wood to target temp. It works pretty well and loads are predictable.


Gg


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## huffdawg (Mar 4, 2012)

goosegunner said:
			
		

> Huff,
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I'll give that a try tommorrow goose,   And I think the return temp out of the botom of storage was 160 maybe. Also I had the circ pump for the house loop going so maybe it was mixing up the buffer tank. My copper piping from the buffer tank to storage is not insulated yet and boiler room is still getting quite warm.

Huff


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## woodsmaster (Mar 4, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> There is a discrepancy between the controller  readout and the mechanical gauge on the boiler discharge.  Its about 6 Â°F  higher. on the readout .I think I remember some post about guys repositioning the thermocouple.



 I had to reposition mine to make the temp on the outlet match the temp on the boiler control. It was off about 10 degrees.
It definitly helped to charge storage more without ideling.


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## RobC (Mar 4, 2012)

With out your pipes being insulated is it possible that your return water is keeping you mixing valve partially closed ? I know my set-up charges storage in 2 stages. First when the return temps are below 160. The whole system charges to around 165 - 170. Once I get to that point, the tremovar opens fully, storage will take another 15 or 20F jump. I end up with storage in the high 180's. Almost never a 190 number though. 
Rob


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## goosegunner (Mar 4, 2012)

RobC said:
			
		

> With out your pipes being insulated is it possible that your return water is keeping you mixing valve partially closed ? I know my set-up charges storage in 2 stages. First when the return temps are below 160. The whole system charges to around 165 - 170. Once I get to that point, the tremovar opens fully, storage will take another 15 or 20F jump. I end up with storage in the high 180's. Almost never a 190 number though.
> Rob



That is how my system works when running on medium pump speed. I think that is a sign that you are in the sweet spot for gpm. You are moving enough gpm to maintain boiler function without idling.  Less gpm and boiler output climbs to setpoint and boiler idles.

I run on low speed when doing small burns. That way I don't mix the whole tank to 165-170. On low I can add to the top of the tank and the bottom temp climbs right at the end.  My Econoburn drops to low fan at 5 degrees before setpoint so it never truly idles, it just cycles between high and low fan as I get near end of charge.

gg


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## huffdawg (Mar 4, 2012)

What do you guys have your tremovar bypass valve set at.   I have been pulling off my buffer tank on low speed .  My boiler circ is a taco 007  ,no speed adjustment.

Huff


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## RobC (Mar 4, 2012)

I leave my Tremovar in the completely open position. However, my boiler is large for my load so I pump mainly to storage. My circulator is a Grundfos 26-99 circulator that I leave on high. This keeps my boiler from cycling at all stages of the burn. Works for me but the Tarm 60 puts out some BTU's.... As soon as I start closing my Tremovar my boiler inlet temp starts to drop pretty quick in the beginning of burn.  On the end of burn I don't see much increase of storage temps so I just leave it wide open.
Rob.


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## goosegunner (Mar 4, 2012)

Sam as RobC I have a 26-99 with 1-1/2" pipe. I have a Danfoss but I have it barely open during normal operation. I usually don't go below 130 on bottom of storage.

I would prefer the new Danfoss because it closes boiler bypass as return tems rise until completely closed.

gg


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## woodsmaster (Mar 4, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> What do you guys have your tremovar bypass valve set at.   I have been pulling off my buffer tank on low speed .  My boiler circ is a taco 007  ,no speed adjustment.
> 
> Huff



 I keep my tremovar around 1/2 closed. I use a 15-58 grundfos on high. I'm running a 60kw boiler with 1 1/2" pipe.


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## taxidermist (Mar 5, 2012)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

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I always close my bypass loop when I get my storage return water above 150* that way all my water is going to storage not circulating around the boiler  making it idle. I can get my bottom temps up to 185*.


Rob


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## hobbyheater (Mar 5, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> My boiler is Idling now and my storage temp is 176 Â°F  the eko controler display reads 194 Â°F  the system pressure is 22 psi. I wish I could get storage a bit higher
> 
> Huff




What is the temp of your buffer tank same as the storage or the boiler ?


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## jebatty (Mar 5, 2012)

I have no difficulty raising entire 1000 gal pressurized storage to 190-193F. As mentioned above, the key is loading the wood so as storage begins to top off, the wood load is burning down, output is falling, and no idling. What makes this very easy is weighed wood burns, as that insures a no idle burn and storage end temp at whatever the desired target may be. My Termovar is about 1/3 open until return from storage rises to the 140's, and then mostly closed after that. I always leave it open just a little. My Tarm-storage circulator is a 15-58 on MED.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 5, 2012)

I can also get to 185 - 190 without much idling. I can get pretty much all the storage to 195 If I do some idling. I never close
the termover all the wat for fear I'll forget to open it.


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## jebatty (Mar 5, 2012)

> ...for fear Iâ€™ll forget to open it.



... which I have done at least twice ... leave it open some, good practice.


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## huffdawg (Mar 5, 2012)

Seems I cant get my buffer over 180 Â°F.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 5, 2012)

I think if you tinkered with your probe to get outlet temp to match It would probably gain you at least the 6 degres it's off. one
place to start maybe. You would still have a large cushion before you reach boiling with all that storage.


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## huffdawg (Mar 6, 2012)

I tried to have a look a the probe. it doesnt seem like it is in a well  , feels like it is strapped to the top of the waterjacket.  anybody know how the probe is attached on an EKO 40?   I was reaching in through the controller opening and could only feel it not see it.

Huff


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## jebatty (Mar 6, 2012)

Probe location is important. On my Tarm, the boiler thermometer reads lower than the hot water output temperature. All of the sensors I have added are surface mounted: fixed with aluminum HVAC tape, then cable tied, then wrapped with insulation -- and mounted close to and downstream of an L or other fitting to turbulate/mix the water and get a more accurate water temperature.


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## huffdawg (Mar 6, 2012)

You would think there would be a service manual or parts manual showing locations of parts and such


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## taxidermist (Mar 6, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> I tried to have a look a the probe. it doesnt seem like it is in a well  , feels like it is strapped to the top of the waterjacket.  anybody know how the probe is attached on an EKO 40?   I was reaching in through the controller opening and could only feel it not see it.
> 
> Huff




Thats how mine is mounted. I know your 40 has different sheet metal than mine but cant you pop off the top tins to see the probe?


Rob


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## woodsmaster (Mar 6, 2012)

Different boiler but mine isn't in a well. It's just clamped on the top of the fire box on the left side and fastened with a wing nut.
Should be able to take the sheat metal off the top I'd think.


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## huffdawg (Mar 6, 2012)

taxidermist said:
			
		

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Ya I have to get a scew driver with a longer shank to reach the screws holding it on.   What sort of adjustment can you do on it.

Huff


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## taxidermist (Mar 6, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

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you can move it to find a cooler or hotter spot. depending on what you are looking for.


Rob


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## woodsmaster (Mar 6, 2012)

On mine i slid the probe so it was barely touching the clamp and tightened back down. that got me close. Then I took a small chip of the roxwool insulation from the cover and slide it over the probe and thay got me the rest of the way. It is a little less responsive
but it's not an issue.


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## huffdawg (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok I have moved it around a bit so it matches the gauge on the boiler output , I am charging now we will see what happens .thanx guys.


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## SmokeEater (Mar 6, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> Ok I have moved it around a bit so it matches the gauge on the boiler output , I am charging now we will see what happens .thanx guys.



Been away from the "desk" for a few days so a belated congrats to your new 1000 gal storage.  Must be wicked nice to be able to cruise along with fewer stoking ups.  I see your Smart's snap switch is not in use.   Can you do anything with it?   I have the 100 gallon Smart and use it for a small buffer tank and a potable hot water tank, but too had no use for the snap switch and then had a light bulb go off in my head!  Now I use the snap switch to sense when the pellet boiler is out of service for any reason and is not keeping the buffer up to temp.  I use the the switch to fire up my fossil boiler if the temp in the Smart drops to 150 and let the aquastat shut it at the high limit.   Another question, you have the Smart IWH, and the high temp water enters on the lower tapping and the cooler exits on the upper tapping.  How do you have your new storage connected?  Hot on top or bottom?  Would it make a difference?  Anyway, accolades to you and you "modified and improved" system.


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## huffdawg (Mar 7, 2012)

SmokeEater said:
			
		

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Thanx SmokeEater   I need a switching relay for the snap switch ,havent got around to it yet..    right now i'm operating it manually.

link showing how storage is plumbed 

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php?ACT=24&fid=21&aid=64528_wvl96EvliChVquNy0zoZ&board_id=1

Huff


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## ewdudley (Mar 7, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> link showing how storage is plumbed
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> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php?ACT=24&fid=21&aid=64528_wvl96EvliChVquNy0zoZ&board_id=1



Very interesting.  Never saw a pressurized storage system where the boiler didn't go directly to storage.  What advantage does intermediate tank and four way mixer offer over the conventional approach?

--ewd


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## bioman (Mar 7, 2012)

the bigger the buffer, the longer your warm, sounds like your doing good .


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## huffdawg (Mar 7, 2012)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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The 4 way directional valve always keeps  hottest water flowing in and out of storage.    I also couldnt fit the two storage tanks in the boiler room  the buffer tank allowed me to run the shop heat  when the house heat wasn't tied in. To me it was a little more flexible than having one primary loop.
Also adds another 150 gals volume and  uses one less pump.

Huff


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## woodsmaster (Mar 7, 2012)

Did you get your storage temp up any?


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## huffdawg (Mar 7, 2012)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> Did you get your storage temp up any?



No . still stuck at 176 Â°F   I noticed this morning the eko controller reading 7 Â°F  higher than the boiler out gauge.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 7, 2012)

The sensor was probably cooler from having the metal off when you adjusted it. I thought I had mine right put the cover on and it was off again. Had to mess with it a few times before I got it to match.


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## huffdawg (Mar 8, 2012)

The boiler gauge and the controller temp readout are within a couple degrees now I managed  to get storage up to 179 Â°F  . The boiler still goes into idle mode at 195 Â°F  and then comes back on at around 190 Â°F and thats with the bypass closed.   I think the taco 007 pump isn't moving enough volume through the boiler.

Last night the  storage was at 179 at  9:30  and dropped to 152 by 630 am

Huff


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## jebatty (Mar 8, 2012)

> I think the taco 007 pump isnâ€™t moving enough volume through the boiler.



While this may be technically correct, and assuming an Eko 40 is similar in output to a Tarm Solo 40 Plus, at anything at delta-T=20 the 007 should do fine, and probably even at a lesser delta-T, but that is dependent on pump head in your system between the boiler and the storage. So while the 007 may be at "fault," what also may be at fault is pipe of insufficient diameter or too long in length, with fittings, etc., to bring pump head to a point where flow is low with a 007. It's a system, not necessarily a component, that makes everything work well.


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## huffdawg (Mar 8, 2012)

jebatty said:
			
		

> > I think the taco 007 pump isnâ€™t moving enough volume through the boiler.
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Hi Jim  , the piping is 1-1/4" and my buffer tank is only 3' away.     Then my storage tanks  have their own 3 speed circ.     I can see that the buffer tank is 182 when the boiler is idling @ 193 or so .


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## taxidermist (Mar 8, 2012)

Might be the size of your pump. I tried to slow down my 013 and it did not take long before my boiler was idling.



Rob


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## jebatty (Mar 8, 2012)

huff - the issue which you probably know is that the delta-T between the return from buffer/storage/system to the boiler and the boiler output is less than 20F. Assuming boiler output at 110,000 btu and delta-T= 12, you need to move 18 gpm, beyond the capacity of the 007, but at delta-T = 20F, you only need to move 11 gpm. We all have this issue at low delta-T's. 

As other posts have mentioned, a "solution" is to load your boiler so that the wood load is burning out as delta-T becomes less, then boiler output is less, and you don't need to move as much water. This technique allows me to load the entire storage 190-193F, top to bottom, with no idling at all. But I also use weighed wood burns, which makes this pretty easy to do in my situation.


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## huffdawg (Mar 9, 2012)

I will try that when the boiler temps start to drop add a couple of pieces of wood to keep the boiler just under the idle temp.


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## jebatty (Mar 9, 2012)

I think it works best the other way. By trial and error, give the boiler up to a full load (or 2nd or 3rd full load) based on how many btu's you think you need to add to storage to bring it up to a target temperature (+ meet simultaneous demand, if any). With 1150 gal of storage, you need 1150 x 8.33 btu's to raise storage 1F. So to raise storage 10F, you need 95795 btu's. 

Assume your wood is close to 20% MC, assume wood at 6050 btu/lb available energy. 95795 / 6050 = 16 lbs of wood, if you have 100% efficiency. I assume 80-85%, so you need 16 / 0.8 = 20 lbs of wood, if no other demand. You can work this out for any other target temperature, but the point is that you then load that amount of wood, starts out at high burn, burns down, output falls, and the boiler coasts the btu's into storage with (if everything is estimated correctly) no idling and arriving at target temperature.

Another way to look at this is 1150 x 8.33 btu's to raise 1F = 9580 btu's, then divide by 6050 = 1.6 lbs of wood, and efficiency correction of 1.6 / 0.8 = 2 lbs of wood per 1F temp rise in 1150 gal of storage.

I use this technique all the time. It works.


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## goosegunner (Mar 9, 2012)

Huff,

I can't remember if I sent you my spreadsheet that does the math for you?

Averages tank sensors and calculates pounds of wood. Also calculates lbs for the heat load during the burn, lbs to bring boiler from start temp to pump start. Gives total for all.

gg


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## huffdawg (Mar 9, 2012)

Thanx Jim and gg    .   I'll have to get myself some sort of scale .   Goose could you email me your spreadsheet please and thank you.   Got the tanks to 180 this afternoon the buffer was 185 and the boiler at 190   then I added some more wood but it was too  much and I went into idle mode .    What temps does your boilers go into idle at.

Huff


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## goosegunner (Mar 9, 2012)

I will send it to you.

My Econoburn goes to low fan at 5 degrees below setpoint. I run the setpoint at 190. 1 have used 195 a few times but 190 seems to work fine.


gg


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## goosegunner (Mar 9, 2012)

Huff,

PM me your email address and I will send you the file. It averages Top and Bottom of storage. How many sensors do you have?

gg


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## huffdawg (Mar 9, 2012)

goosegunner said:
			
		

> Huff,
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> PM me your email address and I will send you the file. It averages Top and Bottom of storage. How many sensors do you have?
> 
> gg



I dont have any sensors yet.  I have three sensor wells on each tank. I was hoping to purchase a nofossil system.  I will pm you

Huff


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## JP11 (May 8, 2012)

Oh man.. This stuff all makes so much more sense after you have the boiler and have been running it a bit.  

I think my design plan had me at like 22 GPM with 1.5 inch piping.  I've got a 60kw boiler though.

So with bigger pipe, and bigger GPM.. I don't go into idle then.  I've been able to get my storage to 194.5 before it goes into idle.  I do notice that my controller shows my temp of boiler about 3 to 5 degrees hotter than what the output of boiler really is.  I think that's a tweak I can make to get a bit more out before I hit idle.

My only real wish is to have a chart of what my controller really does.  You know.. if I had a chart that said.. Ok, storage gets to X.. Boiler at Y.  It's Idle.. it will turn fan on every Z minutes to keep flames alive... then at B temp it will come back on. 

I know I don't NEED to know what it does.. but other than staring at it to see.. I don't know what's coming "next" 

The wife is on her first week alone with it.  She's doing OK so far.  It's different learning how to use it when I'm standing there vs. a couple thousand miles away.

JP


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## huffdawg (May 9, 2012)

JP11 said:


> Oh man.. This stuff all makes so much more sense after you have the boiler and have been running it a bit.
> 
> I think my design plan had me at like 22 GPM with 1.5 inch piping. I've got a 60kw boiler though.
> 
> ...


 
Hi JP. my wife runs our boiler 2 weeks on 2 weeks off she seems to manage well. She uses different load timing than what I do. And she gets results so I don't tell her how to do it anymore. I have  had mine up and running since mid. Dec. still learning. I have managed to get my storage up to 186f. but can't seem to get it any higher. I guess I will be buying a larger pump in the summer, I would love to get the storage to 195f.
Glad to hear your getting all the kinks worked out.

Huff


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## JP11 (May 9, 2012)

LOL.. I'll put my wife up against yours.  She got 189 last night.  It did come with a bit of grumbling though.  Said she loaded it too many times yesterday. 

Best I've seen is 194.5... not bad since the boiler idles at 195 at the boiler.

Most I ever go away for is 8.  It's usually 6 or 7.  I think she'll like it better when the wood's drier.  She told me she was stacking it jumbled yesterday.. the cause of an extra loading I think.  I tried loading it perpendicular to the nozzle..  Mixed results.

JP


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## hobbyheater (May 9, 2012)

huffdawg said:


> Huff


 
Huff  & JP
We had our place rented out for 17 years  ,and it was the girls that had success running the system not the guys


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## woodsmaster (May 9, 2012)

I wish I could get my wife to run the boiler. No not really then I wouldn't have an excuse to get me out of the house for a few minutes. The boiler can need fired at most convienient times.


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## kopeck (May 10, 2012)

Maybe a silly question but how much are you guys gaining by getting your storage up to 190 deg?  I know I'm comparing apples an oranges a bit here but with my unpressurized (American Solar Technics) 820 gallon tank I'm happy when it hits about 170 to 175.  I've been able to get it up to 180 once or twice but it takes quite a bit more wood and a lot more boiler cycling.  I'm just wondering if the extra input is worth what you are gaining on output.

Then again everyone likes a challenge and something to brag about. 

K


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## JP11 (May 10, 2012)

kopeck said:


> Then again everyone likes a challenge and something to brag about.
> 
> K


I don't think it's anything special or using too much wood.  My wife in her second day running the boiler just filled it up a couple of times and hit 190 each night on storage.  As for what I'm "getting" out of it.  Call it 20 degrees of spread with 8k plus pounds of water.  So, 160k BTUs more storage.

Now.. as for heat loss extra at those higher temps..  I just don't know.  System is too new.. and I haven't got a couple of the return lines insulated yet.

JP


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