# Masonry Heaters



## kevinmoelk (Jan 5, 2007)

Okay, I'm going to start a new topic here since some have expressed interest in Masonry heaters.  I know very little about them except for what I've read.  I wonder how much it would cost to put one of these in my house?  (Fishing line in water)

-Kevin



Here are some good sites:

http://www.mha-net.org/
http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/do-it-yourself/masonry_stoves.htm
http://www.tempcast.com/
http://www.diymasonryheater.blogspot.com/


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## restorer (Jan 5, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm going to start a new topic here since some have expressed interest in Masonry heaters.  I know very little about them except for what I've read.  I wonder how much it would cost to put one of these in my house?  (Fishing line in water)
> 
> -Kevin



I am interested, also. My grandfather built his house in the late 20's, early 30's. I clearly remember the fireplace in the livingroom. Six feet across standing maybe two feet into the room. The firebox was about 30in. wide, and 30 in. tall. the mantel was about 5 feet off the floor. What was curious were the vents along the front low to the floor and grates on each end, both high and low. My grandfather was an engineer, contractor, surveyor and farmer. He designed the house and built it himself.  He never explained the fireplace, but I believe it was a masonry-mass stove. He would light a fire and burn it hot with a bronze cover over the fire box, and vents under the grate front. He would put four or five crumpled pieces of newspaper on the grate stack a half dozen pieces of kindling build a cover of splits and use one match. That was the big giggle with the family no one else could do it with one match. Anyway, the stove would burn less than an hour, but could radiate heat for hours. When it started to cool in the room he'd repeat the process, and maybe throw a chunk of coal on top. That mass would stay warm all night. I never remember seeing a blazing fire in the box, but remember the best place to stand and get warm after playing in the snow was at the end of the fireplace, not in front. I am sure this was an old German design, or maybe something he learned in college at the University of Illinois.The chimney was on an outside wall, and extended a foot or more beyond the outside walls. The walls by the way were 12 in. thick. I am sure they were well insulated.

Years ago I got interested in finding out about this kind of heating, but lost interest as there was almost no information available. I am again interested in learning all.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 5, 2007)

strikes me that i have heard of these being called a "russian fireplace" or somthing like that , if i remember reading it right , there are open "pits" in the exhaust that allow for heating of the brickwork by the exhaust as well as the fire. been a couple years since i read about it, i think it was in a hearth publication, hearth and home maybe, was really interesting article. i may try to look it up again when i have time to dig through old pubs at the shop. chuckle, i dont have to look , second link is the one i read , was in MEN i just bookmarked the site. thanks for the post , its really a kool concept


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## sgcsalsero (Jan 5, 2007)

I noticed there seemed to be a little arm twisting going on with a previous thread to get this info. . . staying tuned


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 6, 2007)

sgc said:
			
		

> I noticed there seemed to be a little arm twisting going on with a previous thread to get this info. . . staying tuned




Well, yes it was/is meant to draw MartyS out, but I don't think he's going to post here either, despite my direct question and relevance to the thread.  There's no camoflage going on here.  I really would like to hear his thoughts, particularly being an owner and operator of one.  Nonetheless, the topic of masonry heaters is a good one in my opinion, and perhaps this thread will bring a healthy discussion.

Incidentially, I think it was the second link I posted that makes reference to a book called "Living Homes".  I bought that book and it goes into great detail (several chapters) about how to build that masonry heater.  Quite an interesting article.  

-Kevin


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## tutu_sue (Jan 6, 2007)

The masonry heaters are really cool and highly efficient.  I looked into them a year or two ago and found that the initial cost is very high, but they pretty much last forever.  I have heard that you can get 24 hours of heat on one load of wood.  Expect to pay $5,000 for the guts.  Additional is metal hardware, stone or brick facing, chimney, masonry work, labor, foundation support, etc.  Also consider is that a wood framed floor will not support the mass of the heater, so a block support base extending from the ground or slab up will also be necessary.  I would have to say that if you can't DIY the masonry work, the total cost would be closer to $10K.


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## webbie (Jan 6, 2007)

I love these things. I even talked to webwidow about putting one in here - since I can do at least some of the general contracting myself, I think I could get something in for maybe 15K. That may sound like a lot of money, but when it comes to house remodeling it is not. 

Outdoor wood boilers and central heat boilers (wood, pellets, etc.) can easily run 10-15K+ installed NOT including the house distribution system.

All I have to do is start by cutting a hole in the basement floor and digging a deep foundation.

My guess for average homeowner installed price for these things is 15-20K. Again, not to bad when compared to regular masonry fireplaces which are 7 grand plus without accessories, glass doors. So a masonry fireplace with an insert and liner....over 10K.


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## MrGriz (Jan 6, 2007)

I don't want to take this thread OT (let me know if I should start another one), but you have peaked my curiosity.

I know a bit about the basic concept of a masonry heater.  As I understand it, the large stone mass stores heat, much the same way a soapstone stove does, and releases it slowly over time.  What I'm curious about is the guts of these things.  What's on the inside, other than a firebox and a chimney?  Also, how much wood do you have to go through to heat one up?

IMHO this is a very good topic, for one that started off as bait on a thread  ;-P  (just kidding Wrench, I couldn't pass that one up).


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 6, 2007)

I suppose it all depends on how much you are willing to do yourself.  Personally, I don't think it would cost that much, particularly if you could source the rocks yourself.  In that Living Homes book the builder I believe made the masonry heater for $1000 bucks.  Granted, he was a hippie, real scrounger type, but I certainly think $5K would be in reason if you were providing the sweat equity.  There's no need for fancy kits.  

-Kevin


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## Burn-1 (Jan 6, 2007)

I've looked into these for some time now and someday hope to figure out a way to retro-fit one into our house. Here is some cost information I found from a couple sites with prices for heaters and heater components in some cases for self-assembly.

Heat-Kit prices


One of the sites which I have looked at the most is from Maine Wood Heat.

Maine Wood Heat prices
Maine Wood Heat core info
They also have construction manuals and documentation for these on their site.

Temp-Cast also sells a modular heater core kit.

Griz, if you want to see what goes into one of these look at this link from the MHA website that shows a heater being built. Check it out and read the document link by Jay Hensley and one can see how much is involved Masonry heater workshop construction process

The Tulikivi and Willach heaters are mostly all soapstone which is a significant cost factor over brick as well as the fact that they are imported. These are sold almost exlcusively through dealers and in a discussion on the GardenWeb forums one of the Tulikivi owners noted that the price was in excess of $20,000. You could buy some nice stoves and probably 15 years worth of dry split cordwood for that kind of money


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## webbie (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm not going to lay brick, and I would use a pre-engineered interior because I would trust that better than site built. If the innards alone cost 5-7K, then figure the cost of building a large masonry structure from the basement up through the house...it's gonna cost...

Certainly, with any masonry, if a person wants to lay the brick and block and mix the mortar they can save a bundle.


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## MrGriz (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks for the links burn-1.  There is definitely more going on in there than I realized.

That would be an awesome addition, but it looks like you really need the right type of home layout for one to be very effective.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 6, 2007)

There is a mason who has a display the next town  over that build masonry heaters a Finish brand  he builds is 
Tulikivi 

 The theory is short couple hours hot burning fire that heats the masonry mass stores heat that will release it for up to 12 hours prices are 15k or more 

 What Uncle rich described, is not so much a masonry heater but a heatolator type fire place. with a convection chambed  drawing cold air from the living space channeling it around the fire box and exiting above the firebox

  The masonry heaters are fireplaces , where convection chambers circulate threw the masonry mass and heat the masonry. All of these heaters are located in an interior location  Some are masonry mass and use a class A metal pipe for venting.

 In a way I have achieved storage mass here without the expense of the masonry heater. I planned this long ago when I built my home.
  Behind my stove is a 12' wall floor to ceiling 16".  thick, with real granite field stone I scrounged from my lot.  My chimney location is in the center of my home ,a very open concept.  This chimney has 4 flues, one for my wood stove, one for the fire place, one for the oil burner, and another one for a wood stove. I once had upstairs. but now a bedroom. After 24/ 7and 500+degrees constant heat exposed by my wood stove, these granite stones get warm, I mean possibly over 100 drgrees. Even if my stove burns down one, can feel the warmth generating from these 
stones for hours.  No way can one do that withan exterior location chimney. I saved my home description that was posted on the old forum and would post it here but most regulars grow tired reading recycled post. Where my side walls are R28 and solar gain during the day, if sunny, I need little heat. Built into the side of a hill reducing nothern exposure


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 6, 2007)

Good links Burn1, thanks.  Craig.  I'm surprised that someone as handy as yourself would be going for a pre-built unit.  Not rocket science in my mind.  But I know what you are saying too.  Not something you want to get wrong and then have 3,000 lbs of rock to deal with in order to repair it.

I don't know if I can scan in the information from the book legally.  But I'd be happy to do it if folks want.  Might take me some time to put together.  Craig, can I do this and post here?

-Kevin


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 6, 2007)

MrWrench (aka Kevin):

When things are considered "expensive", some may say, "If you have to ask 'How much?' you can't afford it".  Is it expensive? Yes.  Do I regret it?  Definitely, no.

I spent about $25K on mine, which includes the below listed (*) to my memory, but remember, cost is not everything.  Cost is relative.  I'll get to this later.

*  Core unit (TempCast - a Finnish design contraflow)
*  Installation of core unit (can be done DIY if your guns are like Arnold's Schwartz..'s - some 'pieces' of the core weigh 125 lbs)
*  Fabrication of chimney (I used approved double wall and single wall to protect thru ceiling passage and get heat into living space)
*  Masonry block foundation built on a reinforced concrete footing on virgin earth
*  Poured concrete floor pad on 3/8" steel sheet
*  Masonry solid brick laid over core unit with tile facade (as seen here on hearth.net fireplaces "tilestone")
*  Bakeoven option
*  Large single glass door option
*  Tile hearth

A heater like this would be difficult and more costly to retrofit into an existing home unless you had the savy and ability to DIY.  Now, less expensive versions are appearing which is a good thing.

My N MI open floor plan home built in 2003 was essentially built around the thing which is self supporting and weighs approximately 4 - 5 tons (hence Thermal mass - can't do this with a 600 - 800 lb metal stove).  It has a flame path of some 15' inside the masonry (for heat transfer) and the chimney begins behind the unit at floor level where a manual damper is located I close after the coals die down.  When it's a little warmer outside, I leave the damper open.  Never had a backdraft.

Why did I do it?  I wanted to and I could after many years having burned fireplace inserts, gas stoves, gas fireplaces, and a few metal stoves.  I live on a hill in a remote area with frequent power outages from wind/tree vs powerlines.  My steep driveway will not permit passage of utility trucks (LPG for my furnace) in winter.  I tired of the frequent filling of the hungry metal stoves/inserts and the subsequent "indoor weather" fluctuations they caused.  I also developed a dislike of the "fried dust" they generated.  

I wanted safe, easy (1 - 2 fires per day), clean burning (only pellet stoves rate cleaner burning but are too mechanical for me and don't put out enough heat) for the environment, long lasting (the thing will out live me, maybe my grandkids), gentle healthy radiant heat and another member of my family (it sticks out into my living room, but it's welcome).  From a 50 lb (average) fuel load, the fire burns intensely for 1 1/2 - 2 hours generating a spectacular fire I enjoy in the morning about 6 AM with coffee.  If it's single figures outside I burn a second 50 lb fuel load over a "sundowner" while preparing dinner.  It can take three (3)  50 lb fuel loads per 24 hours without overfiring (per TempCast).  The tile surface rarely gets too hot to touch and maintains a comfortable ambient indoor temperature of 68 - 70* F in a main floor of about 2500 SF plus 400 SF loft.  Without detailed notes, empiracally I burn about one cord less per year with the masonry heater (1/4 - 1/3 less; this year maybe 1/2 less) vs other wood burners I've had.

I also have my own woodlot of about 22 acres which I harvest about 5 cords per year burning 3 - 4 cords myself, giving some to neighbors, some to church auction.  But this is part of the payback I'll get into later.  Stay tuned.  It's late.

Specific questions I'll attempt to answer w/o BS.

Good night.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "Non illigitimi carborundum."  (Translation follows, stay tuned...)


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## jjbaer (Jan 6, 2007)

Marty,

Congrats...that's a SUPER update that I (and other members) thoroughly enjoyed!!  We always enjoy hearing about the various heating systems other members have.  

As to the saying from your grandma...why make the forum members "stay tuned"......it means don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down or, don't let the bastards get you down.............

Now you spoiled it for us Marty and we were off to such a good start........LOL.....


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks for the response MartyS.

It's quite interesting to hear about how such a mass is able to retain heat for so long, with such a small amount of fuel.  As efficient as my woodstove may be, it makes me think about how much heat is lost up and out of the chimney.

$25K seems high.  But it's all relative.  That cost would make it impossible for many people to afford.  However, I think a dedicated DIYer could tackle the project.  I can certainly understand why someone would not want to undertake a project of this magnitude without some prior construction experience.  Not the type of project to undertake if you have ANY doubts in your abilities.  Definately don't want something with that amount of weight and size to have any questionable structural integrity.

I'm interested in the optional oven.  How do you regulate the heat?  Easy to cook with or no?

-Kevin


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## jjbaer (Jan 6, 2007)

Marty,

Congrats...that's a SUPER update that I (and other members) thoroughly enjoyed!!  We always enjoy hearing about the various heating systems other members have.  

As to the saying from your grandma...why make the forum members "stay tuned"......I believe it means don't let the illegitimate ones grind you down or, don't let the bastards get you down............. n'est pas?


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## begreen (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks for the informative post Marty. I would have loved to install a masonry heater but it would have been a real budget buster for us.


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## Burn-1 (Jan 6, 2007)

Dylan if the ones in the prior links aren't your cup of tea, take a look at these stucco covered, not entirely blocky, and somewhat more 'horizontal' masonry heaters from Biofire. Biofire 1 Biofire 2 Many of these have heated benches which is what spreads their shape out.

It would seem you can build pretty much any design around the 'core' of the heater throat and flue exhaust channels. It's a matter of cost for most. I think the reason that you see many of the designs you don't like is that the core construction is expensive enough that simpler facings and shapes are used as a means to contain costs.


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 6, 2007)

You can design your "hot rock" to your own taste level.  Mine looks like this:

https://www.hearth.com/gallery/pics/fireplaces/source/tilestove.html


Costs (of ‘expensive’ $25K masonry heater) are relative.  And, it’s for essential home heat. 

ESTIMATED SAVINGS/PAYBACK CALCULATIONS (‘Tight’ new 2900 SF mainfloor/loft home)

Nov ‘04 - Oct ‘06 (2 years)

With Masonry Heater/Harman TLC 2000
$1114. (643.5 Gals)    LPG Purchases @ $1.73/G ave (stove, H/W, Onan 12K generator)
$  200.            Cordwood Purchases (Rotator cuff inj shoulder 3/05 - couldn't swing a thing for a few months)
$  250.            Anthracite Purchases (basement stove)
$    55.            Chainsaw/tractor fuel
__________
$1619.            /24 months = $ 67./month

Without Heater/Stove - Est Expenses
$4200.            LPG ($175/mo x 24 mo)

$4200.            /24 months = $175/mo
- 1619.
_______
$2581.            Saved in 2 years
                Payback is 20 years (worse case) without adding up non-essential experses (below)

For just 1 year, add up what you spend on non-essentials such as:

$25000.        Your second or third vehicle (I have one) 
$3000 - ?        Your boat (I have three and I admit it’s a weakness, sorry) 
$125000        Your “hunting cabin” or second home (I have one home) 
$1500        Tobacco $5/pk x 300/yr (a vice that’s not nice) 
$3600        Ethanol $10/day (wine, beer, booze) 
$50000 - ?    Your mistress (Been thar, done that - a real waste) 
$2500        Eating at restaurants (I do this modestly) 
$3500        Hunting and fishing trips (I quit killin’ things long ago) 
$1000        Blown pocket money, ATM w/drawls (Everyone does this) 
?            “Stuff” you bought but haven’t used in at least a year (It adds up) 
Big Bucks    A divorce or two (see a few lines up;no comment) 
            Make your own list (Yada, Yada, Yada)

and the cost/payback, ease of use, safety, effectiveness, eco-friendlyness and convenience of a big hot rock (aka masonry heater) in your home doesn’t seem so out of the question.

____________________________
“Today, many people think nothing of spending tens of thousands of dollars for an automobile that holds its value for a very short time.  But the investment in a masonry stove is truly rock solid.  As part of a home remodeling project or new home construction, masonry stoves easily pay for themselves -  in reduced heating costs, increased comfort, and added value to the home.”

http://www.fnaturalhomes.com/fountainheat.htm
_____________________________
Scuttlebutt from other owners:  The homeowners report that their investment in this heater has paid for itself in traditional home heating costs after only 6 heating seasons.

Aye,
Marty
Grandma used to say, “Sometimes less is more.”


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## laynes69 (Jan 6, 2007)

Masonary heaters seem like a great option if one can afford one. First of all, less wood and not having to "TEND" the fire every few or so hours. Secondly they aren't going to rust out, warp, or produce leaks like an OWB would do. If you build your dream home, and plan to heat it with wood, why not spend that initial cost, or add it to the loan and have something that will continue working for years and years to heat your home. Cost seems high, but look at geothermal heat systems, 10 to 20 thousand dollars, with a 10 to 15 year life, then all over again. It will last long enough to produce a payback. Would something like that add value to a home? I could see it adding value, being its a beautiful fireplace and heats the house at the same time.


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 6, 2007)

MODIFIED PAYBACK WITH BURNING OWN CORDWOOD VS PURCHASING

Costs (of ‘expensive’ $25K masonry heater) are relative.  And, it’s for essential home heat. 

SAVINGS/PAYBACK CALCULATIONS (‘Tight’ new 2900 SF main & loft home)

Nov ‘04 - Oct ‘06 (2 years) With Masonry Heater/Harman TLC 2000

$1114. (643.5 Gals)    LPG Purchases @ $1.73/G ave
                (stove, H/W, Onan 12K generator)
$  200.            Cordwood Purchases
                (Rotator cuff inj shoulder 3/05)
$  250.            Anthracite Purchases (basement stove)
$    55.            Chainsaw/tractor fuel
__________
$1619.            /24 months = $ 67./month

Without Heater/Stove - Est Expenses
$4200.            LPG ($175/mo x 24 mo)

$4200.            /24 months = $175/mo
- 1619.
_______
$2581.            Saved in 2 years
                Payback is 20 years (worse case) without adding up non-essential experses (below)

$1600. Additional saving from burning own wood (4 cords/yr @ $200/cord)
$4181.             Saved in 2 years
Payback is about 12 years without adding up non-essential experses (below)


For just 1 year, add up what you spend on non-essentials such as:

$25000.        Your second or third vehicle (I have one) 
$3000 - ?        Your boat (I have three and I admit it’s a weakness, sorry) 
$125000        Your “hunting cabin” or second home (I have one home) 
$1500        Tobacco $5/pk x 300/yr (a vice that’s not nice) 
$3600        Ethanol $10/day (wine, beer, booze) 
$50000 - ?    Your mistress (Been thar, done that - a real waste) 
$2500        Eating at restaurants (I do this modestly) 
$3500        Hunting and fishing trips (I quit killin’ things long ago) 
$1000        Blown pocket money, ATM w/drawls (Everyone does this) 
?            “Stuff” you bought but haven’t used in at least a year (It             adds up) 
Big Bucks    A divorce or two (see a few lines up;no comment) 
            Yada, Yada, Yada

and the cost, ease, safety, effectiveness, eco-friendlyness and convenience of a big hot rock (aka masonry heater) in your home doesn’t seem so out of the question.

____________________________
“Today, many people think nothing of spending tens of thousands of dollars for an automobile that holds its value for a very short time.  But the investment in a masonry stove is truly rock solid.  As part of a home remodeling project or new home construction, masonry stoves easily pay for themselves -  in reduced heating costs, increased comfort, and added value to the home.”

http://www.fnaturalhomes.com/fountainheat.htm
______________

Scuttlebutt from other homeowners:  The homeowners report that their investment in this heater has paid for itself in traditional home heating costs after only 6 heating seasons.

Aye, 
Marty

Grandma used to say, “Sometimes less is more.”


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## jjbaer (Jan 6, 2007)

Marty,

Excellent post!  Great information on costs, expenses, etc.

regards


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## northwinds (Jan 6, 2007)

As recently as just a few months ago, I was determined to include a masonry heater for my new construction project that will begin in a year or two.  I was going to have these folks build mine: 

http://www.gimmeshelteronline.com

Lots of links on their site relating to masonry heaters....

After careful consideration, including information provided to me by contributors on hearth.com, I decided against getting a masonry heater.  Part of it is the cost.  Part of it is that I like fire and keeping it going, so the idea of one or two short fires per day really doesn't satisfy my inner pyro urge.  Okay, most of it was cost.  That money will be going towards a metal roof, higher end windows, and some design features that will make my wife happy.

They are beautiful heaters though...


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## Mo Heat (Jan 6, 2007)

This is an excellent book about masonry heaters. I highly recommend it. It also tracks the use of fire by man in an interesting chronology. It covers Russian, European, and Scandanavian masonry heaters, as well as the hybrid type German and Austrian Tile stoves, going all the way back to the Roman hypocaust ( http://www.answers.com/topic/hypocaust ), one of the first attempts at taming wood heat using thermal mass (stone and water).

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Masonry-Stoves-Rediscovering-Warming/dp/1890132098

I checked a copy out from my local library and enjoyed every page.

Marty, Thanks for the info. One question for you: From ignition, how long before you feel some heat?

For the DIY'er. I've read several articles of people contructing these beasts. One potential problem is cracking of the inner core. Even the pro's have them crack, especially on the first ones they build. A store-bought inner core would reduce that sequelae.


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## MrGriz (Jan 6, 2007)

Marty, thanks for taking the time to share those details with everyone.  It was very interesting.  I can see that the best way to do something like this is as a part of new construction.

The question was already asked, but I am curious as to how long after lighting a fire you feel the heat.  How's the bread out of that oven?

Thanks


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 6, 2007)

Is it true that masonry heaters can also help to COOL a house in the summer time?

Marty, tell me about the pizza you cooked in that oven!  Great posts Marty, I'm learning a lot.

-Kevin


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## BrotherBart (Jan 6, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Mo Heat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My last therapy for it cost me more than $25,000. I should have had a heater built instead.


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## sgcsalsero (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks Marty, I read an article last yr. about a dude who built a 1800 sq ft house w/ loft in Catskills, . . 16k for high efficiency furnace or 22k for the masonry stove, he put in the stove (p.s. house has geothermal to keep around ?45-50 degrees).  All in all pretty cool stuff . .


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 7, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dylan:
Sure, I've got stories, but that's a different forum.  I don't smoke and I can honestly report not all non-essentials in the above list apply to me and the figures are a pure quess.  The list is for "you" to figure what your non-essential costs would be to see how fast $25K can disappear and make a similar investment in a quality heater more realistic.

Wrench:
The bake oven cannot be used when there is a fire in the firebox since the flame path goes directly through the bakeoven.  I use a metal thermometer in the bakeoven after the fire is coals only.  Depending on how much fuel was burned, about 20 minutes alter the bakeoven may be 450 - 750* F which sears in a few minutes or is OK for a thin pizza or fish but you can't sit and watch a ball game with a few brewskies or your meal will look like an indescribeable char.  After a few tries one can cook just about anything from very fast to slow roasting.
Like tile floors cool in summer, so does the masonry heater (holds ambient temperature a while) but it's cooling effect, if any, can't compare to its heating ability.  If it's really hot and humid, you'll need the lake or A/C; a tile floor or a big cool rock doesn't do it.

Castron:
You got the drift "n'est pas?"

MoHeat/Griz:
Once the fire ignites, a 50 lb load of dry wood puts out an amazing amount of pure radiant heat through the glass doors and you'll get as much heat this way, just in front of the glass, as in a metal stove with a glass door.  I can't stand closer than about 3 feet away from the glass without risk of burning the short ones.  From a cold start, the masonry slowly heats and begins to feel warm in about an hour and builds in heat to 'hot to the touch' (w/o burning skin) over the next several hours.  It stays very warm for 18 - 20 hours then cools.  If the damper is left open, it cools faster.

Aye,
Marty


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 7, 2007)

Thanks for the update again Marty.

I don't knock you at all for spending $25K on the masonry fireplace.  It's your money, you earned it, and should buy what you enjoy.  And I think from an investment standpoint it's not a bad deal at all, particularly if the home stays in the family for successive generations to take advantage of the savings.

Kind of Off Topic, but here's a short blurb about life, stress, and keeping up with the Joneses.

-Kevin



A group of alumni, highly established in their careers, got together to 
visit their old university professor. Conversation soon turned into 
complaints about stress in work and life. Offering his guests coffee, 
the professor went to the kitchen and returned with a large pot of 
coffee and an assortment of cups - porcelain, plastic, glass, crystal, 
some plain looking, some expensive, some exquisite - telling them to 
help themselves to the coffee. 
  When all the students had a cup of coffee in hand, the professor said: 
"If you noticed, all the nice looking expensive cups were taken up, 
leaving behind the plain and cheap ones. While it is normal for you to 
want only the best for yourselves, that is the source of your problems 
and s tress. Be assured that the cup itself adds no quality to the 
coffee. In most cases it is just more expensive and in some cases even 
hides what we drink. What all of you really wanted was coffee, not the 
cup, but you consciously went for the best cups... And then you began 
eyeing each other's cups. 
  Now consider this: Life is the coffee; the jobs, money and position in 
society are the cups. They are just tools to hold and contain Life, 
and the type of cup we have does not define, nor change the quality of 
Life we live. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to 
enjoy the coffee God has provided us. 
  "God brews the coffee, not the cups.......... Enjoy your coffee! 
"The happiest people don't have the best of everything. They just make 
the best of everything." 
  Live simply. Love generously. Care deeply. Speak kindly.  Leave the 
rest to God. 
Walt D'Allaird


----------



## restorer (Jan 7, 2007)

> :
> MoHeat/Griz:
> Once the fire ignites, a 50 lb load of dry wood puts out an amazing amount of pure radiant heat through the glass doors and you'll get as much heat this way, just in front of the glass, as in a metal stove with a glass door.  I can't stand closer than about 3 feet away from the glass without risk of burning the short ones.  From a cold start, the masonry slowly heats and begins to feel warm in about an hour and builds in heat to 'hot to the touch' (w/o burning skin) over the next several hours.  It stays very warm for 18 - 20 hours then cools.  If the damper is left open, it cools faster.
> 
> ...



So, this is exactly how Gramp's fireplace worked. Why is his a heatilator and this is a masonry mass? I would say the total dimensions were 60 inches wide by 48 inches front to rear, and 60 inches high to mantle plus a masonry chimney 25+ tall. I seem to be missing something here.


----------



## restorer (Jan 7, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> There is a mason who has a display the next town  over that build masonry heaters a Finish brand  he builds is
> Tulikivi
> 
> The theory is short couple hours hot burning fire that heats the masonry mass stores heat that will release it for up to 12 hours prices are 15k or more
> ...



This is the reference I'm  referring to.  Am I wrong in questioning. The size and style seem similar. Hot short burn fires, losts of brick and concrete. fresh air vents for fire and looped air exchangers to create a positive draft away from the hearth. The front of the fireplace is stuccoed (plaster finish) but it was always warm to the touch, warmer than the room. Am I wrong?


----------



## par38lamp (Jan 7, 2007)

Anyone else look at a masonry heater and think "waveguide"?

Call me a geek. :cheese:

MoHeat - Thanks for the library idea on that book (The book of masonry stoves).  St. Louis County has a copy reserved in my name now!


----------



## smirnov3 (Jan 7, 2007)

Question about Masonry heater fuel:

As I understand it, you can burn real junk (hay, wood chips, construction lumber) in there and get good heat out.  Is that true?


----------



## Mo Heat (Jan 7, 2007)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> elkimmeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uncle Rich, The big difference is the design and length of the smoke path. Masonry heaters have several designs, but the Tulikivi and Marty's bad boy are both called "Contra Flow" designs. The smoke doesn't just go straight up the chimney, like your dad's fireplace probably did, but who knows, maybe it was a real masonry heater.

The long, circuitous smoke path is essential to transfer heat to the masonry before it exits the chimney. At the top of the firebox the smoke is directed to each side, then it goes down a channel to near floor level, and then up another channel (passing contra to the downward flow, thus the name), with possibly a bit of additional circuity depending upon individual stove design. 

It is rare to find a masonry stove in North America, most people don't even understand what they are, but maybe your dad was really ahead of his time. Do you still have access to the house?


----------



## restorer (Jan 7, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Uncle Rich, The big difference is the design and length of the smoke path. Masonry heaters have several designs, but the Tulikivi and Marty's bad boy are both called "Contra Flow" designs. The smoke doesn't just go straight up the chimney, like your dad's fireplace probably did, but who knows, maybe it was a real masonry heater.
> 
> The long, circuitous smoke path is essential to transfer heat to the masonry before it exits the chimney. At the top of the firebox the smoke is directed to each side, then it goes down a channel to near floor level, and then up another channel (passing contra to the downward flow, thus the name), with possibly a bit of additional circuity depending upon individual stove design.
> 
> It is rare to find a masonry stove in North America, most people don't even understand what they are, but maybe your dad was really ahead of his time. Do you still have access to the house?



This only adds to the confusion. I distinctly remember short hot fires, behind the face cover. Two maybe three burns a day. Huge mass of fireplace that was always warm. 

I brushed the chimney for him when I was 13-14, because my cousin who was three years older couldn't. Cleaned five or six outlets, with a pole and crush from the outside. 

I never remember any smoke from the chimney, but memories are memories, years can alter them.

Anyone have a guess why this keep the house warm?


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 7, 2007)

UncleRich, do you have pictures available?  Or access to the house now?  

I somewhat disagree with MoHeat as far as the rarity of masonry fireplaces in North America.  They may indeed be rare in terms of the numbers built, but the designs have been around for a long, long time.  Certainly there were immigrants who came from the old country who had the skills and knowledge to construct such fireplaces.  It's possible your father had such skills, or acquired the knowledge prior to constructing his own.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Construction of a masonry heater does not look like rocket science.  I'd love to take on the challenge of one, and perhaps will in a few years when I plan to build another home.  Rest assured if I ever get there, I'll do a full write up for Hearth.

-Kevin


----------



## restorer (Jan 7, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> UncleRich, do you have pictures available?  Or access to the house now?
> 
> I somewhat disagree with MoHeat as far as the rarity of masonry fireplaces in North America.  They may indeed be rare in terms of the numbers built, but the designs have been around for a long, long time.  Certainly there were immigrants who came from the old country who had the skills and knowledge to construct such fireplaces.  It's possible your father had such skills, or acquired the knowledge prior to constructing his own.  I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Construction of a masonry heater does not look like rocket science.  I'd love to take on the challenge of one, and perhaps will in a few years when I plan to build another home.  Rest assured if I ever get there, I'll do a full write up for Hearth.
> 
> -Kevin



I am very sorry that I don't have access. The estate sold it in the Seventies. Still there, but a couple of times I asked to see something, or take some pictures, I was turned away. I know the chimney is still there, plus the stack and chimney way for the central furnace, water heater and an extra flu. My Grandfather was very knowledgeable about concert and masonry. He engineered a canyon bridge that was demolished in the 1970's except the terminal piers he built. They were too solid to be blown up as part of the replacement ceramony. He said the charges wouldn't bring them down. He was born in the US, but the family was from Germany/Austria before the turn of the 20th century. An interesting note: He installed an early NG furnace that had six zones, one thermostat, and he manually set the flow to each zone. The first buyer after him, couldn't understand the heating system and replaced it with three furnaces. I learned they paid as much each month as he paid each  year for fuel.

Really wish now I had been close enough to learn from him.


----------



## kevinmoelk (Jan 7, 2007)

UncleRich, well it sounds your grandfather (sorry, I thought it was your father originally) was certainly qualified enough to build a fireplace if he engineered bridges.  He must have picked up the design at some point.  Too bad the new owners won't let you come in and take pictures.  That's pretty lame in my opinion, particularly with your family connection to the home.  If I were the owner I'd see it as a wonderful opportunity to learn about the home and it's prior occupants.  I know the man who helped his family build my home.  He was just a kid when my home was built, but remembers a lot of great details.  I'm always bugging him about things I've found or have questions about!

Knowing your grandfathers cultural background would make examination of the structure that much more interesting to study.  Notice that there are Russian fireplaces, Finnish fireplaces, and other cultures that lay claim to subtle design differences.  The same is true of historic barns in North America.  Every culture had their own manner in which to build barns adopted from the old country.  Consequently there is a fairly rich history of European barn design and construction right here in North America!

-Kevin


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 7, 2007)

UncleRich said:
			
		

> > :
> > MoHeat/Griz:
> > Once the fire ignites, a 50 lb load of dry wood puts out an amazing amount of pure radiant heat through the glass doors and you'll get as much heat this way, just in front of the glass, as in a metal stove with a glass door.  I can't stand closer than about 3 feet away from the glass without risk of burning the short ones.  From a cold start, the masonry slowly heats and begins to feel warm in about an hour and builds in heat to 'hot to the touch' (w/o burning skin) over the next several hours.  It stays very warm for 18 - 20 hours then cools.  If the damper is left open, it cools faster.
> >
> ...



Uncle Rich:

This may help.  

From their website, this following is the official definition of a masonry heater.  Simply, if grandpa's (or any other's) doesn't conform, it's not one.  Hence, the Missouri "Stove" (http://www.dnr.mo.gov/pubs/pub781.pdf) is masonry, burns wood, stores heat but, technically, cannot be called a "masonry heater".  Beyond that, it's all semantics.

Aye,
Marty

_________________________________________________
"*MHA Masonry Heater Definition*

A masonry heater is a site-built or site-assembled, solid-fueled heating device constructed mainly of masonry materials in which the heat from intermittent fires burned rapidly in its firebox is stored in its massive structure for slow release to the building. It has an interior construction consisting of a firebox and heat exchange channels built from refractory components.

Specifically, a masonry heater has the following characteristics:

- a mass of at least 800 kg. (1760 lbs.),

- tight fitting doors that are closed during the burn cycle,

- an overall average wall thickness not exceeding 250 mm (10 in.),

- under normal operating conditions, the external surface of the masonry heater, except immediately surrounding the fuel loading door(s), does not exceed 110 C. (230 F.),

- the gas path through the internal heat exchange channels downstream of the firebox includes at least one 180 degree change in flow direction, usually downward, before entering the chimney,

- the length of the shortest single path from the firebox exit to the chimney entrance is at least twice the largest firebox dimension,

(passed unanimously at 1998 MHA Annual Meeting, June 8, 1998)"


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 7, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> Thanks for the update again Marty.
> 
> I don't knock you at all for spending $25K on the masonry fireplace.  It's your money, you earned it, and should buy what you enjoy.  And I think from an investment standpoint it's not a bad deal at all, particularly if the home stays in the family for successive generations to take advantage of the savings.
> 
> ...



Kevin:

I like coffee and am currently enjoying same.  I like your coffee quote too and I get the analogy, but it's yours.

Here's mine:

"*Life and a Cup of Coffee*
 
 
When things in your life seem almost too much to handle, when 24 hours in a day are not enough, remember the mayonnaise jar and the coffee.  

A professor stood before his philosophy class and had some items in front of him. When the class began, wordlessly he picked up a very large and empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with golf balls. He then asked the students if the jar was full.  They agreed that it was.
 
So, the professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles rolled into the open areas between the golf balls.   He then asked the students again if the jar was full. They agreed it was.
 
 Then the professor next picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar.  Of course, the sand filled up everything else. He asked once more if the jar was full. The students responded with a unanimous "Yes." The professor then produced two cups of coffee from under the table and poured the  entire contents into the jar, effectively filling the empty space between the sand. The students laughed.
 
 "Now," said the professor, as the laughter subsided, "I want you to recognize that this jar represents your life. The golf ball are the important things--your family, your children, your health, your friends, your favorite passions--things that if everything else were lost and only they remained, your life would still be full. The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, your car. The sand is everything else--the small stuff."
 
"If you put the sand into the jar first," he continued, "there is no room for the pebbles or the golf balls. The same goes for life. If you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you. Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. Take your soul mate out to dinner. Play another 18 holes of golf. There will always be time to clean the house and fix the disposal."

He added, "Take care of the golf balls first, the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."  One of the students raised her hand and inquired what the coffee represented.  The professor smiled. "I'm glad you asked. It just goes to show you that no matter how full your life may seem, there's  always room for a couple of cups of coffee with a friend."

Aye,
Marty


----------



## par38lamp (Jan 7, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> par38lamp said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After I posted this, I realized I used the wrong term.  The word I should of used is "Transmission line"

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/tls/

The firebox is the woofer, and the channels behind the woofer are the smoke channels.  When I looked at skeches of a masonry heater, I couldn't help but think they might make a nice, low frequency transmission line sub-woofer, LOL!


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 7, 2007)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> Question about Masonry heater fuel:
> 
> As I understand it, you can burn real junk (hay, wood chips, construction lumber) in there and get good heat out.  Is that true?



Anton:

Since the firebox gets so hot (1800* F ish), it doesn't matter whether one burns soft or hardwood.  Any will do:  construction scrap pine, scrounged wood, purchased hardwood, etc.  There is no difference in creosote formation, which is virtually non-existent.

Just don't burn garbage, painted or treated wood.

Aye,
Marty


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## Mike Wilson (Jan 7, 2007)

par38lamp said:
			
		

> Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ahh, because it does bear some similarity to a microwave waveguide... but then again, it also looks like the back end of a Bose speaker.

-- Mike


----------



## Mo Heat (Jan 7, 2007)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Kevin:
> 
> I like coffee and am currently enjoying same.  I like your coffee quote too and I get the analogy, but it's yours.
> 
> ...



Marty, I once shared that analogy with a friend of mine who has a way of getting me laughing. Here's what he emailed back...

"The lesson here is to put your balls first."


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 7, 2007)

Mo:

“Take care of the (golf) balls first, the things that really matter. Set your priorities."

You mean that part.  Ah, yes. 

But see, the problem is that God gives men a brain and balls, and only enough blood to run one at a time.

Aye,
Marty

Grandma used to say, "If it has testicles or wheels, it's gonna be trouble."


----------



## kevinmoelk (Jan 7, 2007)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Mo:
> 
> “Take care of the (golf) balls first, the things that really matter. Set your priorities."
> 
> ...




LOL.  That reminds me of a quote I believe Teddy R. is accredited with:

"When you got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."


For the record, I'm stealing your analogous story Marty.  Along the same lines as mine, but a little more comprehensive.

-Kevin


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 7, 2007)

wrenchmonster said:
			
		

> LOL.  That reminds me of a quote I believe Teddy R. is accredited with:
> 
> "When you got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."
> 
> ...



That was Lyndon Johnson.


----------



## johnsopi (Jan 8, 2007)

When you look at the cost of the masonry heater being part of the cost of building your house and being tied in with the morgage. It is no different then upgrading your kitchen or any other upgrade to a house. What does a nice fireplace cost extra or a swimming pool? I don't remember what my chimney cost extra when the house was built, but I'm sure it would seem a lot to me now if I had to pay out of pocket.


----------



## Burn-1 (Jan 8, 2007)

There is one other important if not vital thing to consider with all of the talk of money and payback.

Marty, or anyone else with a masonry heater, is making a fractionally larger long-term payment, (added pro-rata principal and interest due to masonry heater), in return for receiving short-term benefits, such as decreased wood consumpton, a cleaner chimney, few needed replacement parts and a safe comfortable heat source which doesn't need much tending so it's a nice thing to have now. But if the world went to crap it would be great to have since you can get heat, cooking, and hot water with few moving parts. So it's not only an investment, it's also a hedge against risk. 

A payment in return for decreased risk and more certainty with regard to return on investment is called *insurance* And if one takes a look at it that way then these look even better as 'investments'.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 8, 2007)

Burn-1 said:
			
		

> There is one other important if not vital thing to consider with all of the talk of money and payback.
> 
> Marty, or anyone else with a masonry heater, is making a fractionally larger long-term payment, (added pro-rata principal and interest due to masonry heater), in return for receiving short-term benefits, such as decreased wood consumpton, a cleaner chimney, few needed replacement parts and a safe comfortable heat source which doesn't need much tending so it's a nice thing to have now. But if the world went to crap it would be great to have since you can get heat, cooking, and hot water with few moving parts. So it's not only an investment, it's also a hedge against risk.
> 
> A payment in return for decreased risk and more certainty with regard to return on investment is called *insurance* And if one takes a look at it that way then these look even better as 'investments'.




And thank you, Burn-1:

The same cannot be said about, say, adding a nice expensive swimming pool to your home?

Aye,
Marty


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2007)

We could have  installed a cement patio and Pergo floors in our house and saved about $10K, but I wouldn't have been happy with either choice. Instead, we chose to invest in quality, longevity and aesthetics. The overall effect has nicely increased the value of our house as well.

Marty not only increased his personal pleasure and comfort, but he has also increased the value of his home. I consider the masonry stove a (literally) solid investment.


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2007)

> Hmmmm, wonderrin’, if the world “went to crap”, what would happen to the supply of........cardboard??



LOL  :lol: 

There are some out there that would say the world has already gone to crap. Visit a Walmart lately?


----------



## wg_bent (Jan 8, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If the world went to crap and we all went over to Marty's to keep warm, would that mean we'd only be able to get Budweiser to bring along?


That's the sign that the world truely has gone down hill.

Personally, I haven't been to a Walmart in about 2 years, but that's because I live dead in the middle of two each about 30 miles away.  Che Target' is closer...and we still don't go there much.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 8, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dylan:

Here's "one of my stories" for you about an advantage of having a swimming pool beside storing water, just in case...

Years ago I lived in an area in the West know for its occasional forest fires (this is a wood burning forum, right?).  I had a modest size swimming pool.  I like and collected what I considered nice wines.  One year, sure enough, a nasty fire took a bead on my home and neighbors.  I had enough time to scrape up some valuables, place my wine collection in the pool, which was at a reasonable temperature, and high tail it.  Unfortunately, the fire burned down the house as well as a couple of my neighbors' (not from my fireplace insert at the time; from the forest fire).  

When allowed back to it, excited to see if my wines were OK, I dove in my pool and grabbed a bottle to see if the supply had survived the fire.  The bottle was intact, so I opened and tasted it.  To my relief, it was wonderful!

Then, as I held it, the label slid off.   ALL the labels slid off...  

I could tell red from white, burgundy from bordeaux, but that was about it.

After, it was like opening a Christmas present almost every day...

Aye,
Marty

Forest Gump said, "Life is like a box of chocolates.  You never know what you are going to get."

Grandpa used to say, "So many wines, so little time..."


----------



## jjbaer (Jan 8, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> > Hmmmm, wonderrin’, if the world “went to crap”, what would happen to the supply of........cardboard??
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let's see.....about 90% of Americans pass through Wal Mart stores in a one month time period.......


----------



## begreen (Jan 8, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> Let's see.....about 90% of Americans pass through Wal Mart stores in a one month time period.......



Oh that's a sad statement if true. I've been in a Walmart twice. Once about 15 yrs ago and once about 6 yrs ago. That's enough for a lifetime.

Thus my signature...


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 8, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Marty,
> 
> Do you still enjoy (and collect) wines??
> 
> If so, I nominate Marty to host the First Annual HearthNet (Re-)Union.




Dylan:

I could volunteer this place to have our Forum group IF EVERYONE agreed (in writing) that they

   * would not poke anyone, or themselves, with a hot burning stick

   * could stand the heat in the kitchen

   * would not stay longer than 3 days.

Anything else, I could handle.

Aye,
Mary

Ben Franklin once said, "Fish and visitors stink after three days."


----------



## jjbaer (Jan 8, 2007)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Dylan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great story!  Hey, why couldn't you pump water from your pool to save your house?  Too big an inferno?


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 8, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So-so house.  Nice wine.  I wanted to save the wine!

Aye,
Marty


----------



## smirnov3 (Jan 8, 2007)

IOne question I just posted on a seperate thread - is it possible to put forced draft on a Masonry heater, so that you can build a longer exhaust path? That way, you could get more heat out (ie increase efficiency)?


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 8, 2007)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> IOne question I just posted on a seperate thread - is it possible to put forced draft on a Masonry heater, so that you can build a longer exhaust path? That way, you could get more heat out (ie increase efficiency)?



Anton:

The unit gets outside air, the plumbing for which I did not include in my $25K costs figure.  Mine has a HD manual damper located at floor level at the base of the chimney.  An upgrade, more $$ for sure, would have been to have an automatic, electronic or barometric damper installed high on the chimney inside just before it penetrates the ceiling and roof.  This way, when the damper is closed, more heat is trapped proximally (between the ceiling damper and mainfloor heater) and, thus, heat transfer to the room would be improved (but hard to quantify since it heats so well as is).

I have not heard of forced draft in these systems.  To my thinking this would work against you for getting more heat since the (extra) air being added would have a cooling effect, decrease time for heat transfer to masonry or chimney, yada.

What is available (it's all custom, limited to $ and space) is a longer efferent pathway (aka smoke path) between heater exit channels and the beginning of the chimney; i.e., sitting benches, plate warmers, etc. which would add more warmed surface area to generate more radiant heat.  I didn't have the space for this, and, according to some, I'd be too chincy to do it anyway (and, besides, I'm lookin' at another boat).

Aye,
Marty


----------



## Marty (Jan 9, 2007)

Marty-

I've always wondered... is there any chimney maintenance to speak of in your masonry unit... does it have a cleanout setup and how much creasote do you get/year... I suppose a fire in the heat exchanger would be a boon in that thing.

Also All,
Here is one of my favorite masonry heater links (Russian):
http://www.stove.ru/index.php?lng=1&rs=3

-Marty


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 9, 2007)

Marty said:
			
		

> Marty-
> 
> I've always wondered... is there any chimney maintenance to speak of in your masonry unit... does it have a cleanout setup and how much creasote do you get/year... I suppose a fire in the heat exchanger would be a boon in that thing.
> 
> ...



Marty (and Dylan - here's another story):

Since it burns so hot, there is virtually no creosote so nothing to ignite in the heat exchangers.  This has been verified by the same chimney sweep on his annual visits, usually May.  

Besides the chimney top brushing down, there are two cleanout ports (one 8" x 8", one 8" x 12") with cast iron doors located floor level in one horizontal run of a heat exchanger on one side and the other at the base of the chimney distal to the manual damper on the other side.

"Fly ash, it's clean" is all he reports, then hands me the bill.

I'd do it myself except I fell off a ladder in '67 painting my garage breaking both forearms.  Had those external "pins" holding things together.  Needed help in the bathroom but the good news was I got to know my secretary real well.

Well, I'm here now to tell you I don't climb on ladders or roofs anymore except rarely to rescure my neighbors cat.

Aye,
Marty


----------



## Marty (Jan 9, 2007)

Marty S said:
			
		

> ...
> "Fly ash, it's clean" is all he reports, then hands me the bill.
> 
> I'd do it myself except I fell off a ladder in '67 painting my garage breaking both forearms.  Had those external "pins" holding things together.  Needed help in the bathroom but the good news was I got to know my secretary real well.
> ...


Thanks for the info.
I can see from your list eariler that while falling off a ladder might be pleasant, it can also get pretty expensive. But these are the sacrifices we have to make sometimes to budget for a long term investment.

My grandmother used to always say: "You have to eat a bushel full of dirt before you die, so go ahead and enjoy the picnic."


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 9, 2007)

Marty said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Marty:

Sounds like my grandma.

Aye,
Marty


----------



## Marty (Jan 9, 2007)

Marty S said:
			
		

> ...Sounds like my grandma...



Right, mine's just not as prolific. She did know how to survive though, until the day she died.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Jan 9, 2007)

Marty said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Marty:

Last I thought about it, everybody's doing it.

If I have a choice, I'll take all my dirt right at the end.  And, now I'm thinking about that, perhaps it's best if we take some dirt each day since we mortals usually don't know when the end will come.  Now I think that's a good thing.

Aye,
Marty

Who said, "It's not over 'till the fat lady sings" ?


----------



## Marty (Jan 9, 2007)

Marty S said:
			
		

> [
> 
> Last I thought about it, everybody's doing it.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if she ment you had to eat it all at once or over the long hall but after she told me that, I fretted less, so I took it as good enough advice.
As to what they say about the fat lady, if they are wrong I'll meet you for a drink after the show, and don't bother to wash out the glasses.


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 10, 2007)

More on PAYBACK:

As future energy costs increase (is there any doubt of this?), payback will be shortened each year.

Some masonry heaters can be put in fairly modestly.  Some wood stoves cost nearly as much.

If you opt for lots of masonry for the design effect ($$$), payback is estimated at no more than purchased art.

On insurance:  how about independence from power interruptions?

Consider the sense of calm and appreciation, with opportunity, for those (few) "in the know".


Aye,
Marty


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 10, 2007)

Funny you mention power interruptions.  We've been having heavy wind storms here in WA, many people have been without power.  It feels so good knowing that if my power goes out I'll be ready.  Have oil lamps in the house, good books to read, and a woodstove to keep me warm. :D

-Kevin


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## Marty (Jan 10, 2007)

It seems to me the real big advantage of masonry heaters is in the reduced pollution and more importantly, fuel consumption. Although the eaiser tending characteristics are highly desireable to be sure.

It is a wonderful thing that wood/corn/pellett burners use local sustainable energy sources that do not fiddle with the atmosphere's natural cycles, but if the percentage of them were to increase to any appreciable degree we would be faced with polution and fuel scarcity problems that far exceed those that origionally led to the masonry heaters development.


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## wg_bent (Jan 10, 2007)

Marty said:
			
		

> It seems to me the real big advantage of masonry heaters is in the reduced pollution and more importantly, fuel consumption. Although the eaiser tending characteristics are highly desireable to be sure.
> 
> It is a wonderful thing that wood/corn/pellett burners use local sustainable energy sources that do not fiddle with the atmosphere's natural cycles, but if the percentage of them were to increase to any appreciable degree we would be faced with polution and fuel scarcity problems that far exceed those that origionally led to the masonry heaters development.




Easier tending?  Many people consider starting fires a pain... Isn't having to start 2 fires every day and gather kindling, paper, etc... to start things a bit of a pain vs just tossing splits into a running fire every so often?


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## Marty (Jan 10, 2007)

Warren said:
			
		

> Marty said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe in the earliest stage of the fire but...
you don't have to regulate fuel and air to produce even heat... just charge up the battery and let it release... also cuting splitting stacking and halling six logs instead of ten means less work directly associated with 'tending'.


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## MrWinkey (Jan 10, 2007)

My house was designed to have one when it was built but my folks couldnt afford the 20k aprox cost for it to be put in at the time.  I have kickouts in my livingroom floor and the foundation for it already poured in my crawl space.

It's not really inconvient at all if you look at it.  1 small hot fire to warm the house in the morning.   1 small hot fire to warm it in the eve.

The other idea is that it acts as a sun heatsink.   My wife and I recently purchased the house and we were looking at putting it in since we are doing some re-working of the house.  It is a great idea and would be an awsome point to our family room but I just flat out dont have the cash to spend.  We ended up putting in a pellet stove w/ a huge battery backup.  Maybe in another few years I can afford it but the 4k for the pellet setup vs the 20k I couldnt justify it.

From other houses I've seen with them it's a fantastic Idea.


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 10, 2007)

Payback is clear.  Look earlier in this very thread where Marty breaks down cost vs. payback.  My only concern with putting one in would be considering how long you intend to live in the home.  I'm not sure the added value of the masonry heater to the home could offset the cost of construction if the home were to be sold before the annual savings were accrued.  

So, if you plan on only livng in a home for 5 years, and you spend 20K putting a masonry heater in, could the construction be covered by the increase in the value of the home?  Could you reach your savings to offset the construction cost in 5 years?  Or a combination of the two perhaps.

If however, you are in the retirement stage of your life, and plan to always have the house, or you've built a home for generations of your family to enjoy, then the cost could easily be justified.  Certainly the cost would have to fit inside your overall budget.  Another cost perhaps not so patent would be the expense in buying new stoves, the time spent shopping for them, and the associated installation costs.  With a masonry heater you build it once, and you forget about it forever.

-Kevin


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 10, 2007)

Dylan:  
About a monolith increasing property taxes:  I don't think so.  It's site built under the general building code, as is a regualr fireplace, and classified same as a fireplace.  My money says it's taxed same as a fireplace.

I think a red flag goes up when the building inspector sees a metal wood burner going in.  It falls under the "mechanical" code, not general building code, has a suspect history with insurance companies since many were implicated in burning homes down in the past and may be taxed more as an "extra".

And to somebody else (Warren?) about hard to start 2X/day:  
No way.  I have dry wood (read real dry wood).  With the "Inside Out Firestarting" method (posted earlier within a couple weeks) just stack it, add a little kindling, a sawdust/wax homemade starter, a match and it's done.

Just my thoughts.

Aye,
Marty


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 10, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Kevin,
> 
> *I think your statement regarding payment being clear is EXTREMELY broad....Do you usually generalize to THAT degree after but ONE example?? I certainly DON'T.* One important, IMO, cost that Marty excluded was PROPERTY TAX....I don't mean sales tax...I mean the YEARLY stipend you give to your municipality for the privilege of owning REAL property. In Connecticut, if the assessor is doing his/her job properly, you'll pay upwards of $600 just to own an improvement to your domicile such as a swimming pool or masonry stove. By my calculations, that's three cords of wood.
> 
> As to the cost of time and money spent SHOPPING for new stoves?? Are you SERIOUS?? About TIME?? Sheeessh, how much time do we all spend RIGHT HERE?? And how often do you plan on buying a new stove?? *Further, if I was gonna drop twenty-five large on a masonry heater, I know that I'd spend a helluva LOT more time on 'shopping around' for designs before I'd make THAT decision.*



Dylan,

My experience with home improvements range far beyond masonry stoves.  Though we are discussing that in particular here, my words are general enough to apply to any remodeling project.  I've known people to spend 50K on a kitchen remodel, then change jobs, move to a different state, and NEVER see any return on investment.  Those folks lost money on the remodel.  There are many, many examples I can provide you if you wish.  Shouldn't the expenditure of 20-30K be evaluated beyond just being able to afford the improvement?  I think you agree in your very last sentence.  So, what is the point you are attempting to make Sir?

Time spent?  Sure, why not.  I consider my time valuable.  Time here?  Well, this is for fun.  Entertainment is important in life.  

As far as spending money on new stoves?  Why not?  There are some people who are going to want a new stove before the old one is paid for, and will sell the stove below market value.  So yes, I'm sure there are people loosing money by purchasing a new stove every few years.  Or maybe they decide to get rid of the stove all together before receiving a ROI.  

-Kevin


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## kevinmoelk (Jan 11, 2007)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Kevin,
> 
> Your reasoning here makes no sense....no sense at all. It's simply a statement of your predujices. There's NO point in even discussing where you ere, other than to indicate that you're 'looking down your nose', regarding those people who are getting no return on their kitchen investments. You CAN'T really know.
> 
> I won't click on "Ignore", but this CERTAINLY provides context with which to view future posts of yours.



Dylan,

Okay.  Seems to me like you are one who enjoys stirring the pot and creating drama around yourself.  That's fine, but I'm not playing.  To make the above statement about someone you do not know is not very kind Sir.  I'm certainly not looking down on anyone, lol.  If you find my posts have little to no value, so be it.  I was only attempting to answer your questions.  For the record the person I know who spent 50K on a kitchen remodel is my brother, so yes I DO know that he lost money on the deal.  

-Kevin


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## Marty (Jan 11, 2007)

Marty said:
			
		

> Here is one of my favorite masonry heater links (Russian):
> http://www.stove.ru/index.php?lng=1&rs=3


This guy is a poet...:

"Our works – is a new trend in development of stove heating.

If somebody needs to come from point A to point B, this distance can be covered differently. It is much better to use a direct line. It’s natural. If there is a big mountain on our way it is better to use another way instead of climbing the mountain. When new grass grows through the newly laid asphalt it is but natural. We are all equal in the face of God but our lives turn to be different, this is also natural. There is one life given to us, and it is but natural that everybody strives to live it in the best possible way. We are all equal before the law, and the law shall provide equal rights and possibilities to everybody, ensuring priority of a person and society before the state. This is also natural. The state shall fulfill only the social functions that nobody fulfills, nothing else. For that purpose only it was created. It shall provide the conditions for fruitful labor and for welfare of people in accordance with their capabilities, the system shall be self-adjustable. This is also natural. If one needs to perform some kind of work the best way is to use natural possibilities of nature: wind strength, the sun energy, the energy of falling water, etc., it is but natural. In all these cases one common tendency is observed - all the events ( process) are optimal when they are natural and done on purpose. and also when they correspond to the laws of nature and the Universe. Observation of this law leads to optimum results, whereas failure to observe the law leads to chaos, cataclysms and tragedies. This is proved by the whole historic development of mankind. 

Let’s have a look how this tendency is observed in stoves, which are designed on the principle of “ free (natural) gas movement”. The hot gases movement in the hood stove (hood) is done not under the influence of pipe draw but under the influence of gravitation force of gases themselves. The hottest gases being the easiest go up, the cold ones being the heaviest are accumulated in the lower part of the hood. The gases having an intermediate temperature are circulating in between. That means that inside the hood a turbulent gas movement takes place, that contributes to a better heat accumulation by the hood walls. Inside the hood with the temperature increase an excessive (higher) pressure is created that also contributes to a better heat accumulation by the hood walls. Heat transfer takes place due to convection (it is the same as air movement in the room), the heat energy is carried over by the gas flow itself. When we use electricity for heating no pipe draw is necessary. When we use wood for heating the worked out, cold combustion products are taken away by means of pipe draw. In this case under the hood floor there is a certain volume (a sack) of hot gases that is an ideal chamber for burning out of gaseous content of wood.

Let’s view the following case. If we feel a rubber glove with fingers pointed up with air (let’s call it a convective stove system), it will fill up its volume completely. The gases always fill up the whole volume (in comparison with water that can fill a part of volume). If we heat the air in the glove from the bottom a convective air movement takes place inside it, in each place, in each finger. A process of heat transfer due to convection takes place, whereas the heating will be equal in each horizontal cross section. Hence the hood can have any form both in cross section and in height. In each vertical cross section (volume) of the hood a convective gas movement takes place and heat transfer due to natural nature forces. A simple and a clear process of heat transfer inside the stove takes place. This cannot be reached in other convective systems including those ones that operate under the principle of “ counter flow”. Try to organize a forced gas movement in a stove that has a form of a glove (fingers up) due to pipe draw having an equal heating along its horizontal cross section with a minimum resistance to gas movement. The hood stove can hardly be spoilt. The convective system of such stove is natural and self -adjustable. It provides numerous possibilities for creation of stoves with new functions. "


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## Burn-1 (May 16, 2007)

While looking at some stuff for possible designs for a retrofit masonry heater I found this link
to someone who designed and built his own masonry stove.

Home built masonry heater

Probably not the ideal thing for most of us to do but it's got some very interesting information.


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