# Masonry Heaters



## KeepItNatural (Dec 9, 2009)

They're sometimes called Russian Fireplaces or Russian Stoves.  Different places have different names for them, but I'm wondering if anyone out there has one.  
I don't have any immediate plans to build one, but I think somewhere down the line it'd be nice to go for it.


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## weatherguy (Dec 9, 2009)

I did a search on this site when I first heard of them and there was one guy that had one, I believe he lives in New York state. It was an older thread and I havent seen him post recetly.


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## KeepItNatural (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a fire box insert in my fireplace, something very similar to a fireplace insert, but my chimney isn't on an outside wall.  It's in between two room, so after a day of burning, the bricks will hold heat over night.  So when I found out about masonry heaters and that they were designed to do just that but much more efficiently.  I just want to see what other people know and think about it.


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## carinya (Dec 9, 2009)

These folk have an interesting approach

http://www.tempcast.com/


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## summit (Dec 9, 2009)

just burn it right if you do one: too many folks in this area treat those things like an all nighter woodstove and choke them right down, then creosote builds up everywhere: they should be run super hot and hard, allowing the masonry to aborb the huge amount of heat then release it slowly.


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## weatherguy (Dec 9, 2009)

> These folk have an interesting approach
> 
> http://www.tempcast.com/



 My next house will have one of those. I also have a large, stone see through fireplace in the middle of my living room, dining room kitchen. I have a BK insert in another fireplace that just about heats the whole house but I always thought I could do something useful with the center see through. I know if I built the house I wouldnt have wasted the money on a pretty fireplace I would have made the center FP a masonry heater.


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## northwinds (Dec 9, 2009)

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/5703/

Marty S. is a member that has one.

I used to think I wanted one, but I changed my mind.  I like having a wood stove going all day with several
long burn cycles.   A masonry heater is a different animal.  They are expensive and usually require some
expensive changes to install in an existing home.


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## killick (Dec 9, 2009)

rsg, a buddy of mine has a masonry heater in the kitchen of his farm house. It is a kachelofen built by Ernst Keisling as a demonstration. Ernst bought a local construction company we used to work for so my buddy got his built for the cost of materials. It's a great heater, only requires firing twice a day in the coldest months and produces virtually no residue or creosote. Uses about half the wood of his old wood stove and radiates heat for 12 hours. What more can I say. They work on the same basic principal as a wood gasification boiler with a secondary burn at around 1800 degrees F. The heated gases then travel through a series of internal masonry baffles transferring heat to to the masonry mass where it is radiated back into the room. They are expensive, can be large and heavy and are best suited to an open concept floor plan like any radiant heater. Here's a link to Ernst's site:http://www.canadiankachelofen.com/ 
A few years back I inspected a new house that had a Temp Cast masonry heater constructed in the living room. The mason who built it said it went together with no problems. It was also a bit smaller than my friend's kachelofen.
Oh, one other thing. They are definitely not portable. At 10-12,000 lbs they become a part of the house.

Earl


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## KeepItNatural (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks Earl,
The idea is really neat, I like the idea of it.  Thanks for the link.  I'll check it out.
Thanks to you guys who posted links earlier as well- I checked those ones out and liked what I saw.  I really appreciate everyone taking the time to post!


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## killick (Dec 10, 2009)

They throw a nice mellow, constant heat. You can also configure a seat as part of the baffle system and have a warm spot to curl up with a book. Some units come with a cooktop and second oven door for baking in. i'm starting to sound like a sales person. There's loads of info on the internet so have fun with the research.

Earl


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## sgcsalsero (Dec 11, 2009)

there are some posts on these if you search on 'masonry heater' check also mha-net.org.  A lot of my heat & effort goes wasted with outside chimney and inefficient burns using insert.  Wish more of these had been built past century in U.S. (or more) rather than traditional rumford fireplaces which I'm stuck with, would likely not be as cost prohibitive.

Also search on tulikivi


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## photoboy74 (Dec 18, 2009)

hello all from someone who just joined!!

i'm an american ex-pat living in germany with my (german) wife.  we're remodeling our home and we were fortunate enough to have a "berliner" ofen (stove) in our living room.  from my understanding, a "kachelofen" is not a true masonry heater.  a kachelofen heats through radiant heat as well as circulated warm air.  it contains an air vent at the top of the stove that circulates warm air.  a "berliner ofen" is the true masonry heater that heats only via radiant heat.  

as far as my experience goes with it, it is a beast of a heater.  upon arriving, i knew next to nothing about them.  i told my wife, "we can get rid of it, and put a nice fireplace there!"  what an idiot i was.  after some locals telling me how stupid that would be, i began to read more and more about it.  i'm glad i listened.  whereas fireplaces are around 10percent efficient, i've read (probably optimistic claims) that masonry heaters are upwards of 90 percent efficient.  i burn a small load of wood once a day (twice when the mercury really drops) and it heats for 12-18 hours.  i can burn moist, crap wood (albeit more of it!!) and produce heat for 12 hours.  i don't have to worry about creosote as it burns full throttle until the wood is about burned through.  when i have good embers, i close the doors and seal it up.  not worried about CO at that point.  we also burn brown/lignite coal briquettes in the stove with wood to help hold the "glüt."  

either way, if one can do it.  do it.  it's like having a little sun in the room.  after working outdoors in the winter or taking a shower, my wife and i like to stand against our "berliner."  even though it has an extremely large amount of heat stored inside, the outside is never to hot to touch.  it is amazing.  even mark twain was flabergasted by the kachel- and berliner ofens.


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## littlesmokey (Dec 18, 2009)

Welcome Photoboy, pull a chair to our glowing hearth and join the crowd.

There is a ton of information on these kinds of stoves. A search for -thermal mass heating - will fill you with all kinds of ideas. Some community colleges offer courses in their construction. At one point I wanted one of the German stoves, until I found out they were not imported. Anyone know why, or has that changed?


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## killick (Dec 18, 2009)

Hi photoboy and welcome. My friend's kachelofen is a true radiant heater with no air vents. Ernst Keisling,the builder, is from Austria so mayby there are regional differences.The Finns and Russians all have names for these heaters.These heaters are all custom built to a design for a specific location so the components are available you just have to know how to put them together. Whatever you call them they are great heaters and very efficient.

Earl


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## cmonSTART (Dec 18, 2009)

I got to see one in action for the first time when I was at CSIA this fall.  It's absolutely amazing how much heat can be stored from one fire.  We had one fire in the morning and it was still warm the next day.  I could see one in a future home if it was laid out for it.


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## littlesmokey (Dec 18, 2009)

Got to see one in action in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. This was at a private home, but more like a lodge, This one had a small decorative Rumsford style stove inside, but the real work was done by the stone and mortar thermo stove out back. A half dozen or so 36 inch sticks are burned at a time and keep the home toasty. What is amazing is there is absolutely no smoke. It burned as clean as could be. The fellow I was with was a fellow sub contractor who built the fireplace said there was about eight ton of rock and concrete in the system. It was designed by a man from Norway. BTW, there were two burn boxes, one for everyday, about 24X24X40 and the other was closed off and insulated heavily, but was used on really cold days. That would be -20 to -50 or so. They burned only Lodgepole pine and fir. It was something to see about 2,100 feet of firewood double wide and six feet high. (Isn't that about 300 cords)


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## killick (Dec 19, 2009)

For a clean and efficient burn I think you will find they exceed any EPA rated appliance made when they are used properly.

Earl


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## sgcsalsero (Dec 19, 2009)

photoboy74 said:
			
		

> hello all from someone who just joined!!
> 
> either way, if one can do it.  do it.  it's like having a little sun in the room.  after working outdoors in the winter or taking a shower, my wife and i like to stand against our "berliner."  even though it has an extremely large amount of heat stored inside, the outside is never to hot to touch.  it is amazing.  even mark twain was flabergasted by the kachel- and berliner ofens.



That's a great looking stove...for kicks how much would this cost (approximately) new where you live in Germany (assuming one's house already has an adequate foundation, admittedly the biggest factor for me, which is to say I have no foundation for an 8,000 lb. beastie).  There are a lot of numbers thrown around on how expensive they are here.  Your foundation underneath  (assuming you have a basement) is likely all block with perhaps a concrete pad?

Well anyway, I'm green with envy, enjoy


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## photoboy74 (Dec 19, 2009)

That’s a great looking stove…for kicks how much would this cost (approximately) new where you live in Germany
thank you!  we are very fortunate to have it.  i remember asking how much that cost to the previous homeowners and they said 900 East German DM.  The cost was artificially lower because the gov't helped pay for it but the homeowner wasn't able to choose what ceramic tiles were used.  could have been real ugly.  brand new i've heard from 5,000 to 9,000 Euros with foundation.  cheaper if one does the work themselves.
the cellar of the house lies under the kitchen only so the berliner is on a cement pad which rests on gravel than earth.  originally, the foundation was just painted an ugly maroon and covered with a metal plate that rusted.  when we remodeled this room, we laid mosaic tile to make the area nicer.  i just wish i had chosen a darker tile, graut, and caulk  even with a sealant, it's starting to get dirty from ash


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## sgcsalsero (Dec 19, 2009)

> thank you!  we are very fortunate to have it.  i remember asking how much that cost to the previous homeowners and they said 900 East German DM.  The cost was artificially lower because the gov't helped pay for it but the homeowner wasn't able to choose what ceramic tiles were used.  could have been real ugly.  brand new i've heard from 5,000 to 9,000 Euros with foundation.  cheaper if one does the work themselves.
> the cellar of the house lies under the kitchen only so the berliner is on a cement pad which rests on gravel than earth.  originally, the foundation was just painted an ugly maroon and covered with a metal plate that rusted.  when we remodeled this room, we laid mosaic tile to make the area nicer.  i just wish i had chosen a darker tile, graut, and caulk  even with a sealant, it's starting to get dirty from ash



Nothing like a good government incentive to justify the expense - I paid out close to $2,500 for my insert install (incl. ssl 30 ft. liner, labor) in 2006, price is 20% more now.  Love the insert, don't like the lower efficiency plus loss of heat due to outside chimney, the drone of the blower, worrying about creosote, draft reversing if I don't use for two days, etc.  $9,000 Euros that includes the install of foundation sounds reasonable.  It's funny, my wife doesn't like the look of these beasties but yet I found her last night standing in front of the insert blower warming her jacket (and herself) before she ran out to our car.

The claim of 90% efficiency is not far fetched, this .pdf was a great read, see page 4 in particular http://www.tempcast.com/planninguide/plan-all.pdf.  However, I think the fuel would likely have to be <25% moisture to achieve.

Cheers


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## sgcsalsero (Dec 21, 2009)

PB74, would you mind taking measurements of your ofen and posting them?  Also, what is the approximate outside temp. of it when at its hottest?

Thanks again.


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 21, 2009)

My TempCast is here:

https://www.hearth.com/gallery/pics/fireplaces/source/tilestove.html

It's in its fifth burning season and is a joy.  I have had several fireplace inserts, gas stoves and wood stoves.  This masonry heater is a different, and wonderful, animal.  Don't need to say "I love it" and would not go back to the metal burning cousins if I could help it.

Any specific questions, just ask.  Otherwise, I'm reading by a big bay window for light, occasionally glancing at the falling snow, and feeling the great radiant warmth from my masonry heater.

Aye,
Marty
Sorry for chiming in late on this one.


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## spirilis (Dec 21, 2009)

That is beautiful.  If I ever build a house it will have something like that in the center.


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## killick (Dec 21, 2009)

Hi Marty, fine looking heater. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:
1) Did you construct this yourself or did you have a mason build it?
2) How did you do the transition from the masonry heater to metal flue/chimney?

Thanks;

Earl


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## sgcsalsero (Dec 21, 2009)

Marty S said:
			
		

> ... and feeling the great radiant warmth from my masonry heater.



Sure rub it in Marty ...in the words of yosemite sam...racka-frackin' carrot-chewin' varmin...


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## photoboy74 (Dec 22, 2009)

PB74, would you mind taking measurements of your ofen and posting them?  Also, what is the approximate outside temp. of it when at its hottest?
@churchie,

the measurements are (in centimeter.  sorry, but i'm in germany! the conversion to inches is 2,54 cm/inch):
height: 175
length: 96
depth: 55

i don't know what the outside temp is but i do know that around the firebox is the hottest after it has fully warmed up.  even so, i can put my hand on the tile, hold it there, and not burn myself.  hope that helps!!

@marty s,

that tempcast is a beauty.  the only thing that i wish i could change with my berliner is that it had a window to watch the fire.  do you use the baking oven and if so, is there really a difference between bread from that and a regular bake oven?


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 22, 2009)

E.W. said:
			
		

> Hi Marty, fine looking heater. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind:
> 1) Did you construct this yourself or did you have a mason build it?
> 2) How did you do the transition from the masonry heater to metal flue/chimney?
> 
> ...



Earl:

1) The inner core was purchased and installed by the local dealer.  Some of the refractory pieces in the core weigh as much as 225 lbs.  Since I dislocated my shoulder whipping a dead horse, I didn't feel I should take the job on, though many do (DIYs).  Over the core, there is a layer or cardboard (yup, which later burns off leaving an airspace) then a layer of brick.  Some stop here.  I wanted the tile look, so it went over the brick.  The facade (brick and tile) was done by a local mason and can be just about any natural stone/brick/tile combo you can imagine staying w/in the Mfg specs for thickness.

2)  The MH chimney actually starts at floor level behind the heater.  The first part has a manual damper then double wall Class A metal chimney within the structure of the heater.  The black metal chimney seen is single wall (I wanted heat!).  The 2nd smaller chimney in the pic is from a basement wood/coal stove.  Main floor and roof penetrations go back to double wall Class A metal chimney for code requirements.

Thanks for the interest.

Aye,
Marty


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 22, 2009)

photoboy74 said:
			
		

> > (SNIP)
> >
> > @marty s,
> >
> ...


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## killick (Dec 22, 2009)

Thanks Marty, much appreciated. My friends vents into an existing masonry chimney but I have seen them with a transition flange connected to the heater which allows the use of a regular metal flue or insulated chimney. The tile, along with looking great, adds some additional mass for heat storage. 

Earl


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## Battenkiller (Dec 23, 2009)

I have a friend who has what he calls a "Russian fireplace" that he heats up once a day for about two hours as hot as he can get it, then let's it die out.  It has like 9000 pounds of soapstone in it and cost him a fortune, but his house rarely changes more than a few degrees throughout the day.

I get a similar effect with my basement install of a traditional cast iron stove.  It heats up several thousand pounds of cement block and masonry chimney.  After about a week of steady and heavy burning, the mass of masonry gets to a point where the house will only drop a few degrees even after the stove gets cold (rarely).

I took some IR readings of the wall in my kitchen that is adjacent to the chimney.  It is well over 100ºF.  That might not seem like much heat, but it's like having a gigantic low temp stove between my living room and kitchen.  

This has been highly effective in keeping us from the temptation of turning on the electric heaters for almost twenty years now.  Of course, the basement is fully insulated. Otherwise, I would lose most of this heat to the cold basement walls.


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 23, 2009)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> I have a friend who has what he calls a "Russian fireplace" that he heats up once a day for about two hours as hot as he can get it, then let's it die out.  It has like 9000 pounds of soapstone in it and cost him a fortune, but his house rarely changes more than a few degrees throughout the day.
> 
> I get a similar effect with my basement install of a traditional cast iron stove.  It heats up several thousand pounds of cement block and masonry chimney.  After about a week of steady and heavy burning, the mass of masonry gets to a point where the house will only drop a few degrees even after the stove gets cold (rarely). (SNIP)



Get the low down on the different (Russian, Swedish, Finnish, Danish, etc) masonry heaters here:

http://www.firecrest-fireplaces.com   Click on Heating Solutions.

Now, as you see, they all use the same principle our ancestors used thousands of years ago: fire heats rock, rock stays warm after fire is out which heats man and cave.  Big cave?  Use more rock.  Smaller cave?  Use less rock.

The difference in more modern models of rock (basic models hundreds of years old) is in the exhaust smoke/heat channels which help absorb heat from the fire.

You use a slightly different set up but use the same principle as your ancient ancestors.  Congratulations and enjoy!

Aye,
Marty


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## sgcsalsero (Dec 23, 2009)

..for some reason the link isn't picking up "Solutions" but it works if manually copied and pasted.

Thanks


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## Battenkiller (Dec 23, 2009)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Now, as you see, they all use the same principle our ancestors used thousands of years ago: fire heats rock, rock stays warm after fire is out which heats man and cave.  Big cave?  Use more rock.  Smaller cave?  Use less rock.
> 
> 
> You use a slightly different set up but use the same principle as your ancient ancestors.  Congratulations and enjoy!



I guess it's fitting that the stove is in my "man cave".

My cave woman OTOH wishes I could get just a little more of that good heat upstairs.  67ºF is about all I can get it to in the living room when it's really cold outside.  The answer would be to run my flue temps higher than I already do to warm up the chimney even more, but then the stove flirts with the serious overfire range and downstairs in the wood shop is not livable with 90º plus temps.

I think the ultimate answer is a smaller stove in the basement and a pellet stove insert in the living room fireplace.  Since the two flues are enclosed by the same masonry  work, I'd get a more even and steady heat than I already do.


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 23, 2009)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> (SNIP) My cave woman OTOH wishes I could get just a little more of that good heat upstairs. (SNIP)



Before investing in extra stoves, try this as I've done it successfully in my home.  Caviat:  You must have an open door at the top of the stairwell and a little fan.

Put a small fan on the floor in the door space of the main floor blowing down the staircase.  This helps Mother Nature rid the main floor cool air on the floor which naturally will go downstairs but now is helped with your fan.  Forcing cool main floor air downstairs will displace warm ceiling air from the basement upstairs where she wants it.

You may get an unexpected reward!

Aye,
Marty


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## awoodman (Dec 23, 2009)

Another type of masonry or thermal mass heater.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/42827/


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## spirilis (Dec 23, 2009)

awoodman said:
			
		

> Another type of masonry or thermal mass heater.
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewforum/2/P105/


? link takes me to the forum but no thread


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## awoodman (Dec 23, 2009)

photoboy74 said:
			
		

> it's like having a little sun in the room.  after working outdoors in the winter or taking a shower, my wife and i like to stand against our "berliner."  even though it has an extremely large amount of heat stored inside, the outside is never to hot to touch.  it is amazing.



With a Rocket Stove Mass Heater you can heat up a bench type thermal mass to lay on.


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## karri0n (Dec 23, 2009)

Take a look at http://mainewoodheat.com for some of the most beautiful(and expensive) masonry heater setups I've ever seen. many of them have fairly large write-ups and galleries on their construction and use.


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## GregGavish (Jan 5, 2010)

Since it's not the typical pellet stove, my cousin hired a designer and masonry in MD to team up for the project. They have managed to produce an outstanding job. The stove actually became a main feature in the living area of the house.


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## slindo (Jan 7, 2010)

I am fascinated with Masonry heaters, but in much the same way I am fascinated by dowsing and Fish carburettors. I almost built one a few years ago, but chickened out.

There were a few things that bothered us about masonry heaters. The big one is that you have to make a couple fires from scratch each day. I hate making fires. My cat VC burns for weeks on one fire. It's much easier for me to throw in a couple logs to keep it going through a warmish day, than find more kindling in late winter to restart it when the sun goes down. Another thing is that while enthusiasts like to claim they will heat for 12 to 24 hours on one fire, you aren't really getting any useful heat out of it for the first 4 to 6 hours after the burn - the old saying is, tonight's fire is tomorrow's heat. So you really got to have a conventional stove, or backup heating, as well as the masonry heater, for those times when you are just plain COLD and need some heat NOW not in 6 hours, or want to cook or heat some water when the power is off. 

Also, I could never get a good handle on just how efficient they really are. A friend who is about to build one boasts how it will heat their rambling house on  "two armloads of wood a day" instead of the 6 or 7 they have to haul with their current Jotel - and that much  only in the coldest weather! Their big worry is it will put out too much heat. Many masonry heater sites echo similar claims, but with no independant authentication of the claims. The best scientific tests I have been able to find show masonry heaters in real life operating at 80 to 86% efficient. That compares to  75 to 85% for a good woodstove, Another test says that  a house a bit smaller than ours would still burn about 3 cords a winter with a masonry heater (we burn 4 with an iron stove). That would suggest a masonry heater might eliminate one load out of 8 or 9, still a long shot from just two little armfuls a day.

One last point to consider. To get the most out of a masonry heater, you should be using it as a radiant heater, which means you really should have an open plan house, designed around the heater, so as to maximize use of radiant heat. If you think you are going to stick it in a corner of an old farm house, or in a mudroom along with the wood, you are not going to be happy with it.

That said, I remain fascinated by them. If we were the sort of people who were home all day, cooking and baking, I think we could be very happy with one.


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 7, 2010)

slindo said:
			
		

> (SNIP)
> 
> There were a few things that bothered us about masonry heaters. The big one is that you have to make a couple fires from scratch each day. (SNIP) Another thing is that while enthusiasts like to claim they will heat for 12 to 24 hours on one fire, you aren't really getting any useful heat out of it for the first 4 to 6 hours after the burn - the old saying is, tonight's fire is tomorrow's heat. So you really got to have a conventional stove, or backup heating, as well as the masonry heater, for those times when you are just plain COLD and need some heat NOW not in 6 hours, or want to cook or heat some water when the power is off.
> 
> ...



My input re your remarks.  I am in my 6th heating season with a TempCast masonry heater.

"A couple fires from scratch each day" is a benefit, not a detriment.  Consider the firebox and heater is already hot from the previous fire.  If your design is ample, the wood will be close at hand.  Stacking and reigniting dry wood is a snap taking only a couple minutes.  Oh. 2 fires/day works well unless the outside temp drops below zero - then 3 fires.  My firebox "full" takes about 50 lbs of dry fire wood for one fire which produces some 250,000 BTU's of radiant heat which a metal stove can't take or do.

Not getting useful heat until 4 - 6 hours after the burn is simply wrong.  Even the first fire of the season with a room temperature unit will emit almost immediate serious radiant heat through the glass door(s).  So much it can burn your short ones if you stand too close...  Again, if you designed it right, it will provide continuous hot water ("T'd" to you H/W system) when you're out of gas or electric for your H/W heater.

There is more that goes into "efficiency" than I want to get into here but suffice it to say the only unit that burns cleaner is a pellet stove.  The problem with metal wood stoves is that they are *designed* to burn wood inefficiently (low combustion efficiency by turning down incoming air to not over fire the stove) and they have a high heat transfer efficiency (metal conducts heat to the room very rapidly).  A masonry heater is *designed* to have a high combustion efficiency (burns wood with maximal incoming air to get very high firebox temperature) and *moderate* heat transfer energy to release heat slowly (read comfortably) to the room.

Having had several wood stoves, a fireplace insert in my life plus a gas stove, I feel I am qualified to say a masonry heater burns 1/4 - 1/3 LESS firewood than a good sized metal wood stove.  This pretty much jives with what the Mfgs claim.

You are correct that an open floor plan is best for radiant heating and no one should be happy with sticking ANY heating stove in a corner or outside wall.  These units perform best when the entire chimney is contained in the envelope of the home.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Aye,
Marty


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## killick (Jan 7, 2010)

I would agree with Marty's assesment on the use and operation of a masonry heater.Marty,I am interested in how you plumbed in your water line.I am assuming it picks up heat from the baffles and is not installed in the fire box?

Earl


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 7, 2010)

E.W. said:
			
		

> I would agree with Marty's assesment on the use and operation of a masonry heater.Marty,I am interested in how you plumbed in your water line.I am assuming it picks up heat from the baffles and is not installed in the fire box?
> 
> Earl


Earl:

I did not plumb my MH unit with hot water coils T'ing into my H/W supply.  Reason: too much $$$ after the MH.  And, I'm not worried about hot water.  In fact, I find it easily...

Those who do plumb their MH for H/W do so not in the firebox  WAY too hot.  The coils are place in a back or side wall and the finish facade placed over the coils.  The walls and sides get to 170* F or so which is adequate.

Aye,
Marty


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## killick (Jan 7, 2010)

Whoops! Misunderstood your post above. Definitely do not plumb into the firebox..

Earl


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## mainemac (Jan 9, 2010)

Marty


Like many others I find the idea of a Masonry Heater intriguing.
I love the look and the efficiency of it all.

How does the firebox viewing aesthetic go? She who must be obeyed (my dear wife)  was saying that she loves our woodstove insert in part due to seeing the fire roiling along a few times a day

I myself would not mind having 5-6 reloads daily but see her point 100%

With 2 small short fires a day do you miss the 'ambience factor'?

Tom


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 9, 2010)

mainemac said:
			
		

> (SNIP)
> 
> How does the firebox viewing aesthetic go? (SNIP)
> With 2 small short fires a day do you miss the 'ambience factor'?
> ...



It seems you do not understand, or have never seen, what a masonry heater fire (about a 250,000 BTU event) is all aboout.  Don't feel bad.  You're not alone.  Let me clarify.  Not "small".  Not really "short".  Exceptional ambiance.  Not at all comparable to a choked down air deprived wood fire in a metal stove.

Firing up 50 lbs of wood in the firebox of the TempCast with wide open air intake produces a spectacular viewing event for about 2 hours through the door glass in the firebox.  The flames then pass through a slit in the bake oven floor, visible here through the bake oven glass as 'blast furnace' with the flames violently hitting the ceramic roof (the violent flame path is designed for high secondary combustion efficiency) of the bake oven before being redirected up, out and downward into the ceramic heat exchange channels (flames being invisible here some 15' or so before entering the chimney).  The masonry, about 3 - 4 tons of it (yup) from the firebox to the chimney, absorbs the intense combustion heat at about 1800* F or so in the firebox allowing only about 275* - 300* F out the chimney.  This absorbed heat is then gently released as radiant heat to the room over the next 20 hours or so.

Having a fire like this with morning coffee and then again (maybe 3 fires/24 hours when it's single figures outside, maybe a dozen/year) with a sundowner provides total ambience for us since wife and I rarely are here most of the day.  More than 3 fires would serve no purpose.

Get the picture?

Aye,
Marty


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## sgcsalsero (Jan 9, 2010)

Hi Marty, we all owe you a big thanks for patiently responding.  I think there are a couple folks who have a masonry heater who find hearth and then quickly figure out they are in small company and don't hang out.  Because you've had your share of stoves and understand 'the physics' of different products makes it even more pertinent.  .02, maybe you should make 'the basics of masonry heaters' youtube and then point folks there from time to time.

Off topic point on cost: My co-worker just bought a Cadillac CTS - something he's wanted for five years.  My grandfather had a $10k 25' Macgregor sailboat.  A house I bike past has a ginormous masonry fireplace that has to be 15' or more tall - from my observation probably used  less than 30 times per year (in the two years I've biked past it it's never been used).  I just so happen to want a masonry heater a lot more than a Cadillac, sailboat, or huge patio with outside fireplace.  So when I get the opportunity someday, that's what I'm doing.  Maybe the kids will be grown and gone - right about the time my bones will need the extra warmth for the winter.  The 'cost discussion' is all about what people consider a priority in their lives.  If they want something bad enough, a lot of them do find a way to get it.


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 9, 2010)

churchie said:
			
		

> Hi Marty, we all owe you a big thanks for patiently responding.  I think there are a couple folks who have a masonry heater who find hearth and then quickly figure out they are in small company and don't hang out.  Because you've had your share of stoves and understand 'the physics' of different products makes it even pertinent.  .02, maybe you should make 'the basics of masonry heaters' youtube and then point folks there from time to time.
> 
> Off topic point on cost: My co-worker just bought a Cadillac CTS - something he's wanted for five years.  My grandfather had a $10k 25' sailboat.  A house I bike past has a ginormous masonry fireplace that has to be 15' or more tall - from my observation probably used  less than 30 times per year (in the two years I've biked past it it's never been used).  I just so happen to want a masonry heater a lot more than a Cadillac, sailboat, or huge patio with outside fireplace.  So when I get the opportunity someday, that's what I'm doing.  Maybe the kids will be grown and gone - right about the time my bones will need the extra warmth for the winter.  The 'cost discussion' is all about what people consider a priority in their lives.  If they want something bad enough, a lot of them do find a way to get it.



I've had that 'cost' thing tossed at me before.  Believe me, it's all relative (see below previously prepared).  Keep reading.

Costs (of ‘expensive’ $25K masonry heater) are relative.  And, it’s for essential home heat. 

SAVINGS/PAYBACK CALCULATIONS (‘Tight’ new 2900 SF main & loft home)

Nov ‘04 - Oct ‘08 (48 months)
With Masonry Heater/Harman TLC 2000
$2876. (1278 G)        LPG Purchases, actual @ $2.25/G ave
                (stove, H/W, Onan 12K generator)
$  300.            Cordwood Purchases
                (Rotator cuff inj shoulder 3/05)
$  250.            Anthracite Purchases (basement stove)
$    65.            Chainsaw/tractor fuel
__________
$3491.            /48 months = $ 73./month

Without Heater/Stove - Est Expenses
$7200.            LPG ($300/mo x 48 mo/2)

$7200.            LPG cost 4 years w/o add’l heaters
- 2876.            LPG  cost 4 years w/ add’l heaters
_______
$4324.            Saved in 4 years 

                BUT, I burn my own wood, so
$3200.            Saved from not buying most firewood
                (4 cords/yr @ $200/cord x 4 years)
$1881.            Average saved per year

$25K/$1881.  =        Payback is 13.3years (worse case) without adding up non-essential expenses or using current LPG costs (below).

For just 1 year, add up what you spend on non-essentials such as:

$25000.        Your second or third vehicle (I have one) 
$3000 - ?        Your boat (I had three and I admit it’s a weakness, sorry) 
$15000        Swimming pool for your house
$125000        Your “hunting cabin” or second home (I have one home) 
$1500        Tobacco $5/pk x 300/yr (a vice that’s not nice) 
$3600        Ethanol $10/day (wine, beer, booze) 
$50000 - ?        Your mistress (Been thar, done that - a real waste) 
$2500        Eating at restaurants (I do this modestly) 
$3500        Hunting and fishing trips (I quit killin’ things long ago) 
$1000        Blown pocket money, ATM w/drawls (Everyone does this) 
?            “Stuff” you bought but haven’t used in at least a year 
            (It adds up) 
$$Big Bucks    A divorce or two (see a few lines up;no comment) 
            Yada, Yada, Yada

and the cost, ease, safety, effectiveness, eco-friendlyness and convenience of a big hot rock (aka masonry heater) in your home doesn’t seem so out of the question.

Other testimonials:

1.  “Today, many people think nothing of spending tens of thousands of dollars for an automobile that holds its value for a very short time.  But the investment in a masonry stove is truly rock solid.  As part of a home remodeling project or new home construction, masonry stoves easily pay for themselves -  in reduced heating costs, increased comfort, and added value to the home.”

http://www.fnaturalhomes.com/fountainheat.htm


2.  "There is one other important if not vital thing to consider with all of the talk of money and payback.  Marty, or anyone else with a masonry heater, is making a fractionally larger long-term payment, (added pro-rata principal and interest due to masonry heater), in return for receiving short-term benefits, such as decreased wood consumpton, a cleaner chimney, few needed replacement parts and a safe comfortable heat source which doesn’t need much tending so it’s a nice thing to have now. But if the world went to crap it would be great to have since you can get heat, cooking, and hot water with few moving parts. So it’s not only an investment, it’s also a hedge against risk.

A payment in return for decreased risk and more certainty with regard to return on investment is called insurance And if one takes a look at it that way then these look even better as ‘investments’."
               --Commercial Real Estate Insurance Person

Aye,
Marty


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## Todd (Jan 10, 2010)

Do masonry heaters have a damper you need to close after that 2 hour firing to keep the heat in?


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 10, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> Do masonry heaters have a damper you need to close after that 2 hour firing to keep the heat in?



Yes.

Aye,
Marty


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## Todd (Jan 10, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
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So can that be a pita at times waiting around to close the damper, or can you leave it open and go about your buisness?


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## mainemac (Jan 10, 2010)

> The masonry, about 3 - 4 tons of it (yup) from the firebox to the chimney, absorbs the intense combustion heat at about 1800* F or so in the firebox allowing only about 275* - 300* F out the chimney.  This absorbed heat is then gently released as radiant heat to the room over the next 20 hours or so.
> 
> Having a fire like this with morning coffee and then again (maybe 3 fires/24 hours when it’s single figures outside, maybe a dozen/year) with a sundowner provides total ambience for us since wife and I rarely are here most of the day.  More than 3 fires would serve no purpose.
> 
> ...


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## Martin Strand III (Jan 10, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
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As long as you know what you're doing and how it works, you can do whatever you want.  Minimal planning is involved.

If it's blustery and very cold, you make it a point to close the damper when the coals are almost gone.  This conserves heat.

If the weather is moderate, the house is warm or you find yourself leaving before you planned, it doesn't matter if the damper is left open and some heat escapes.  The great thermal mass provides enough "umph" (heat output w/o a fire) to prevent back drafting with the damper left open.  This last feature is a relatively undiscussed safety feature of a MH unlike metal stoves.  Leaving the damper open just cools the unit some.  This is remedied with the next fire and also is a great adjustment to have when cooking in the bake oven..

Aye,
Marty
Grandpa used to say, "One man's pita is another man's pie."


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## killick (Jan 10, 2010)

My friend's kachelofen has no damper.I believe the design is less complex than the Temp Cast units. It works fine on substantially less wood than the wood stove was using and almost no emissions and creosote. Here in Nova Scotia he only fires twice a day in the coldest weather.

Earl


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## Jersey Bill (Nov 21, 2010)

I just fired up my masonry heater. Its been a work in progress for over a year.
I bought a kit from Main Wood heat, and found my own local reclaimed brick to build the shell with.
I laid every brick myself


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## killick (Nov 21, 2010)

Sweet! Is that piping for a water jacket I see on the side? What's the weight. Nice looking job Bill let us know how it works out.

Earl


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## Rockey (Nov 21, 2010)

If I built one right on my basement concrete floor would it require a new footing/footer to be dug to support the weight?


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## Jersey Bill (Nov 21, 2010)

there is no water jacket inside the stove, those are temperature gauges. 1 is deep into the smoke port, the other is shallow in the core.

The slab and back wall has radiant tubes in it. When the stove is off, the panels radiate into the room, and when the stove is on, the water will take heat away to the rest of the house.

As far as the weight on a slab on grade, the easy answer is to ask a structural angineer. It really depends on the type of soil. I have about 50,000 lbs right there. The stove, mantle, and hearth,  foundation, and footing each weight about 10k each. 

If you just had the stove, say, it has a footprint of about 8 sq ft, then the bearing load is 1250 lb/sqft or 9 lb/sqin.

Is there on loam or bedrock in your basement ?

b


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## Renovation (Nov 21, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> My TempCast is here:
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/gallery/pics/fireplaces/source/tilestove.html
> 
> ...



Thanks for the photo Marty.  It's a lovely install, and your integrated wood storage is neat.


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## weatherguy (Nov 21, 2010)

Thats beautiful, some day I hope to have one


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## Renovation (Nov 21, 2010)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> I get a similar effect with my basement install of a traditional cast iron stove.  It heats up several thousand pounds of cement block and masonry chimney.



That's very clever.  I also think about adding thermal mass to a traditional stove.  Can you share any photos?


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## Renovation (Nov 21, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Todd said:
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Thanks for the great info, Marty.

Anyone ever heard of automating the damper closure, perhaps with a thermostat on the firebox?


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## Martin Strand III (Nov 22, 2010)

Jersey Bill said:
			
		

> I just fired up my masonry heater. Its been a work in progress for over a year.
> I bought a kit from Main Wood heat, and found my own local reclaimed brick to build the shell with.
> I laid every brick myself



Bill:

That's a beauty!  Congratulations on your hard work.  

Some questions:

1.  How did you separate the core from the brick veneer to prevent cracking?
2.  Do you have a clean out in the back of the unit?
3.  Does your flame path go through or around your bake oven?
4.  Do you have outside air?

Thanks.

Aye,
Marty


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## Sisu (Nov 22, 2010)

Masonry stoves have been around for hundreds of years in Scandinavia, where the winters are long and cold and wood was not always plentiful.  I was visiting relatives in Finland in August and these are some of the "Finnish" masonry stoves I saw.  Some are very old, others are new.  However, they are all extremely efficient.  I estimated I would probably burn 1/2 to 1/3 of the wood I burn now, in a masonry stove compared to my woodstove insert.  Even though the cost of the masonry stove seems high, burning less wood equals less sweat equity.  

I don't know why they are not promoted more in North America.  Maybe because we tend to have an abundance of wood, so burning 24/7 is not frowned upon.  If I were building a house for myself, I would probably install a masonry stove.


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## DBoon (Nov 24, 2010)

Jersey Bill - great install, really, really nice.  Congratulations!

Sisu - thanks for all the photos. 

I suspect that masonry heaters are not more popular in the states due to the large up-front cost.  Americans typically don't like large up-front costs with the promise of later payback since they never imagine that they will be in their home long enough to benefit from the payback, and the next homeowner is likely to value that expensive masonry stove at $0 when they look to buy your house.


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## agartner (Nov 25, 2010)

Awesome looking MH, I'm wicked jealous.  I want one in my house.  Also seems like you did it fairly economically by doing it yourself and creatively obtaining the brick facing.  Are you an experienced mason, or was this your first time out laying stonework?  Just curious if something like this could possibly considered as a "diy" project.


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## dvellone (Nov 25, 2010)

Ive got a close friend that heats with one and seeing his in action has convinced me to put one in the new house I'm planning on starting this Spring. He lights one fire/day during the heating season and the heater is always hot to the touch. Nice even heat and in a tight and well-insulated house it performs beautifully. He did build his himself and though I can't remember his total materials investment I do remember thinking that it wasn't bad at all. It depends a lot on the masonry supply. I've been in the masonry business for many years and I've seen a great variance in masonry supplies depending on the dealer.


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## Martin Strand III (Nov 25, 2010)

MH wannabees, educate yourselves here

http://www.tempcast.com/pdf/PlanningGuide2010_web_.pdf

for the history and advantages masonry heaters enjoy over their metal wood burning cousins.

This unit (TempCast; there are others) can be assembled as a DIY to save on cost.  I elected not to tackle it as some core refractory pieces weigh in excess of 270 lbs.  Despite the higher cost for me contracting the job to professionals, my payback comes from having my own woodlot.  Now in my 7th heating season, the TempCast remains supremely simple, enjoyable, effective and dependable.

Intelligent DIY'ers pay attention to the many details (support, thermal expansion of core vs facade, anchoring doors, facade thickness, 
outside air, cleanouts, damper control, chimney, etc,etc) in order to remain happy down the road.  Newly constructed DIY units have not 
withstood the test of time.  Well made units last generations.

I agree with a previous post that many will not go this route due to the (relative) high initial cost.  Short term thinkers want it cheap and want it now.  To those, there is a different path available.

Aye,
Marty


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## Sisu (Nov 25, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> MH wannabees, educate yourselves here
> 
> http://www.tempcast.com/pdf/PlanningGuide2010_web_.pdf
> 
> ...



I agree.  How much wood do you burn a year?


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## begreen (Nov 25, 2010)

I've always admired the Europeans for using mass to effectively store and release heat from their stoves. They have taken it to a high artform.

Marty, could you tell us a bit about the difference in running a masonry heating system in the different seasons? Is it as simple as deciding whether it is a one, two or three fire day?


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## Martin Strand III (Nov 25, 2010)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
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I've averaged about 3 full cords from September to March.

Aye,
Marty
Grandma used to say, "Sometimes less is more."


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## Sisu (Nov 25, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
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Very impressive!  I burn about 5 bush cords in a year in a 1500 square foot bungalow.  I have improved the insulation, sealing etc. but need to burn 24/7 once the temps start approaching 0 degrees Celsius.  I often wondered if I could convert my basement masonry fireplace into a masonry heater.


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## Martin Strand III (Nov 25, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I've always admired the Europeans for using mass to effectively store and release heat from their stoves. They have taken it to a high artform.
> 
> Marty, could you tell us a bit about the difference in running a masonry heating system in the different seasons? Is it as simple as deciding whether it is a one, two or three fire day?



Evidence exists that rock, in various formations, has been used to hold heat from a fire dating back 35,000 ---> 100,000 years ago (D Lyle, Book of Masonry Stoves).  As time marched on, sophistication in the designs (cro magnon/neanderthal R&D) also evolved into the units we enjoy today (TempCast, Biofire, Tulikivi, Heat-Kit, Canadian Kachelofen, Maine Wood Heat, etc).

Burning in a masonry heater differs from doing the same in a metal stove.  The heating/cooling cycle is stretched out significantly and surface masonry to touch stays below 160* F (no fried dust) - quite different from metal stove surface temps.  Because of the MH's ability (thermal mass) to store (bank the heat) the heat generated by the fire (masonry has moderate heat conductivity; metal has high heat conductivity) and release it slowly for hours, fewer fires (less wood) are required per 24 hrs.  

Some anticipation of incoming weather is helpful since, once fired (some units burn up to 60 lbs fuel charge which generates perhaps 350,000  BTU's), the heat conducts into the masonry mass and is released into the room like it or not.  So, in the shoulder seasons, I burn a smaller fire (maybe 20 lbs of wood) than an average fire in hard winter.  Then, depending on outside temps, one full 50 lb load works nicely for 24 hrs with outside temps in the high 30's or so.  If it's nippy in the 20's, with a cold northern wind, one AM fire (with coffee) and one PM fire (with a sundowner) works out nicely.  The Mfg advises not more than three fires (one every 8 hrs) in 24 hrs.  This is infrequent for me; only when the temp dips into the single figures.

Aye,
Marty


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## Martin Strand III (Nov 25, 2010)

[quote SNIP
Grandma used to say, "Sometimes less is more."[/quote]

Very impressive!  I burn about 5 bush cords in a year in a 1500 square foot bungalow.  I have improved the insulation, sealing etc. but need to burn 24/7 once the temps start approaching 0 degrees Celsius.  I often wondered if I could convert my basement masonry fireplace into a masonry heater.[/quote]

These thermal mass heaters emit almost pure radiant heat; conductive heat is secondary.  Therefore, they work best in open floor plans.  So, I'd put a hi output convection heater in my basement (I did), not a MH, which also needs a stalwart foundation on undisturbed earth - tough if not new construction.

Aye,
Marty


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## Todd (Dec 5, 2010)

I love the looks of those massive heaters but wouldn't it get tiring building a fire 2 or maybe even 3 times per day for 3-4 months of the year? I haven't had to light a match in my Fireview for over 2 weeks and I reload 2 or 3 times per day without having to use kindling. I think I would get tired of chopping kindling every day. I also don't think I could do any better at firewood savings than the 3 cords I'm burning now to heat my 2000 sq ft.


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 5, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> I love the looks of those massive heaters but wouldn't it get tiring building a fire 2 or maybe even 3 times per day for 3-4 months of the year? I haven't had to light a match in my Fireview for over 2 weeks and I reload 2 or 3 times per day without having to use kindling. I think I would get tired of chopping kindling every day. I also don't think I could do any better at firewood savings than the 3 cords I'm burning now to heat my 2000 sq ft.



You're not comparing apples to apples.  There's a difference.

The rule with a sizeable MH is 2 fires/day.  Three fires is the exception.  Loading the firebox takes 2 minutes.  No kindling, no kidding, with dry hardwood.  Fire starts no problem with just a lil' home made fire starter in a hot fire box.  These 2 fires burn HOT (aka clean) with wide open air.

With only 2 - 3 loads/day heating your house, you are choked down on air burning slow (aka dirty).  

What you like, your neighbors might not...

Aye,
Marty


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## dvellone (Dec 5, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> I love the looks of those massive heaters but wouldn't it get tiring building a fire 2 or maybe even 3 times per day for 3-4 months of the year? I haven't had to light a match in my Fireview for over 2 weeks and I reload 2 or 3 times per day without having to use kindling. I think I would get tired of chopping kindling every day. I also don't think I could do any better at firewood savings than the 3 cords I'm burning now to heat my 2000 sq ft.



I thought the same but if your house is real well insulated you might not need to keep a fire going in the wood stove all day long anyway. My small house is well insulated and unless the temperatures are below zero I only need to light a morning fire and sometimes an evening fire in my castine. Any more and the the temperature becomes uncomfortable. With the stove I have a bit of a swing in temperatures. A friend of mine with a masonry heater has a nice constant temperature with one fire every morning - one at night only during the deepest cold. The heater's draft is unbelievable and his kindling is much larger than mine and he needs only a few pieces then the bigger splits which are also on the small side. The fire quickly and easily roars to life.  I think it depends on what the layout and efficiency of your home is like that might help to determine what kind of heater works best for you as well. As far as being tiresome I'll admit that there are times I wish I could just keep a fire going rather than starting over each time, but if the fire I started every morning got that nice big mass of masonry nice and hot I might not mind it so much


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## Todd (Dec 5, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
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Ok, I guess you could just throw a super cedar in there with a few smaller splits, that would eliminate kindling.

I wouldn't say my stove is any more dirty burning than your masonry heater. It was designed to burn clean low and slow. You have smoke at start up just like the rest of us, don't you?


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## Burn-1 (Dec 6, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> I've averaged about 3 full cords from September to March.
> 
> Aye,
> Marty



Three cords in a ~9,000 degree day climate. Not too shabby.


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## Dakotas Dad (Dec 6, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Evidence exists that rock, in various formations, has been used to hold heat from a fire dating back 35,000 ---> 100,000 years ago
> Aye,
> Marty



And to think, I am happy with a 8 hour burn.  



:cheese:


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## Renovation (Dec 6, 2010)

Dakotas Dad said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
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Thanks DD, my Pepsi Max just went through my nose.  Yes, that 65,000 year fire must have been impressive, and 35,000 years is an impressive time to hold heat!

o/`  "Give me that old-time masonry, if it was good enough for Neanderthals, it's good enough for me!"   o/`

Apologies, I just couldn't help myself.

Humor aside, I think masonry stoves are very cool.  Those rocket stove earthen bench heaters are neat too.


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 6, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> SNIP
> 
> I wouldn't say my stove is any more dirty burning than your masonry heater. SNIP



I would.

I'd say your wood burning metal stove is, at best (Phase II?), about twice as dirty putting out about 7.3 Grams/24 hrs of PM-10 particles compared to 2.8 Grams/24 hrs in a masonry heater.  Not my opinion, just published data.

Try googling "Particulate emissions wood burning stoves" and ratchet up on some basic wood burning facts.

Aye,
Marty


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## Todd (Dec 6, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Todd said:
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Looks like your the dirty one Marty. My stove comes in at 1.3 grams, more than twice as clean as your heater. BTW I don't have a metal stove, it's more like a minny masonry heater. Here are some facts for you to look over.

http://www.chc-hpba.org/chc_news.htm


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 6, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
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If you burn a Woodstock Keystone (your newest stove?), you produce 1.9 Grams/Hr.  
http://www.woodstove.com/index.php/keystone

In a day, take 24 X 1.9 to compare to my above figures.

Not apples and apples yet.

Aye,
Marty


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 6, 2010)

Metal stoves with panels of granite, marble, rock or soapstone do not come close to being "mini" masonry heaters.

A metal/masonry combo stove weighing in at 600 or even, rarely, 800 lbs simply cannot store the heat of a true thermal mass masonry heater tipping the scales at 7500 lbs.

To be clear, read the Masonry Heater Association's definition of a masonry heater:

"MHA Masonry Heater Definition

A masonry heater is a site-built or site-assembled, solid-fueled heating device constructed mainly of masonry materials in which the heat from intermittent fires burned rapidly in its firebox is stored in its massive structure for slow release to the building. It has an interior construction consisting of a firebox and heat exchange channels built from refractory components.

Specifically, a masonry heater has the following characteristics:

- a mass of at least 800 kg. (1760 lbs.),

- tight fitting doors that are closed during the burn cycle,

- an overall average wall thickness not exceeding 250 mm (10 in.),

- under normal operating conditions, the external surface of the masonry heater, except immediately surrounding the fuel loading door(s), does not exceed 110 C. (230 F.),

- the gas path through the internal heat exchange channels downstream of the firebox includes at least one 180 degree change in flow direction, usually downward, before entering the chimney,

- the length of the shortest single path from the firebox exit to the chimney entrance is at least twice the largest firebox dimension,

(passed unanimously at 1998 MHA Annual Meeting, June 8, 1998)"

Even chopping off a major portion of the numerical requirements above, does not make a metal/masonry stove the real deal.

They are engineered, built and function too differently to compare.

Aye,
Marty


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 6, 2010)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Todd said:
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Woops.  My mistake.  Sorry.

The 1.3 per hour wins.  Squeeky clean burning, congrats.

The others (7.3 and 2.8) were per hour, not per 24 hours.

The thermal mass statement stands.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Aye,
Marty


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## Martin Strand III (Dec 6, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
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I could burn money to start a fire, but I choose not to.  Buying fire starter material, like super cedar or fat wood or butane for a torch, is like burning money.

Instead, I start dry hardwood splits directly, without kindling, using burnable waste material; home made fire starters - scrap cardboard with fat drippings and dry lemon rinds.

It's not a really big thing.  Doing this over the years is a good way to save.

Aye,
Marty
Grandma used to say, "A penny saved is a penny earned."


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## Jersey Bill (Dec 28, 2010)

On the side of my masonry heater, I gave 2 temperature gauges. One reads the core brick temp, the other reads the flue gas temperature, right before exit.
I logged the data for the last few days.
Hopefully the image comes out.
The down slope of the core temperature represents about 10,000 lbs of mass cooling off and dumping 6- 10 thousand btu's per hour into the house. Some of those down sloping lines last 24 hours.
The green line is mbh/hr in based on the delts T of the core.


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## Renovation (Dec 28, 2010)

Jersey Bill said:
			
		

> On the side of my masonry heater, I gave 2 temperature gauges. One reads the core brick temp, the other reads the flue gas temperature, right before exit.
> I logged the data for the last few days.
> Hopefully the image comes out.
> The down slope of the core temperature represents about 10,000 lbs of mass cooling off and dumping 6- 10 thousand btu's per hour into the house. Some of those down sloping lines last 24 hours.
> The green line is mbh/hr in based on the delts T of the core.



Thanks Bill, the image came out, and it's neat data.  Could you explain what mbh/hr stands for, and its significance?


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## Jersey Bill (Dec 28, 2010)

btu's per hour, or thousand btu's per hour is the heat output.
Usually heating devices are rated in this unit.
For instance a boiler might be rated @ 100 MBH ( thousand btu's per hour)
baseboard heat is rated at 600 btu/hr per foot.

In this case, the loss of core temperature from the core mass is the ammount of heat that the room gains.
That is shown on the down sloping core temperature line. The up sloping line is the heat gained by the core during the burn. The values arent real accurate because lots of heat is going into the room, through the glass door at the same time. So the heat into the room during the burn is understated.
Next, I will weigh the wood going in to get the thoeretical energy input to the masonry heater.


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## Jersey Bill (Dec 28, 2010)

[quote author="Todd" date="1291610367"I wouldn't say my stove is any more dirty burning than your masonry heater. It was designed to burn clean low and slow. You have smoke at start up just like the rest of us, don't you?[/quote]


I dont think any stoves burn efficiently low and slow. When I first started burning my wood boiler, i was burning it with the stack temperature 400-400 deg. It seemed OK to me and thats what folks recomended. Then I got a combustion gas analyizer and tested emissions. CO (carbon monoxide) and  oxygen was way high until I brought my stack temp up into the 500-525 range where I burn it now. Smoke going up the chimney is unburned fuel. When my wood boiler gets into the zone, there is no smoke.

Fuel burning devices always have maximum efficiency at full output. There the heat output will minimize fixed losses. The only way to get high efficiency at lower output is to get a smaller burner.


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## Jersey Bill (Dec 28, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say my stove is any more dirty burning than your masonry heater. It was designed to burn clean low and slow. You have smoke at start up just like the rest of us, don't you?




I dont think any stoves burn efficiently low and slow. When I first started burning my wood boiler, i was burning it with the stack temperature 400-400 deg. It seemed OK to me and thats what folks recomended. Then I got a combustion gas analyizer and tested emissions. CO (carbon monoxide) and  oxygen was way high until I brought my stack temp up into the 500-525 range where I burn it now. Smoke going up the chimney is unburned fuel. When my wood boiler gets into the zone, there is no smoke.

Fuel burning devices always have maximum efficiency at full output. There the heat output will minimize fixed losses. The only way to get high efficiency at lower output is to get a smaller burner.


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## Dakotas Dad (Dec 28, 2010)

How about a matching graph of the living room temps.. as interesting as the stove data is, the Mrs wants only to know about room/house comfort. ;-)


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## spirilis (Dec 28, 2010)

I rather enjoyed the thread about Dick Hill's mini masonry heater he built for one of his rooms, and I would like some day to try my hand at building a mini-me masonry heater with a proportionately small firebox.  Anyone seen plans for something like that?


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## Todd (Dec 28, 2010)

Jersey Bill said:
			
		

> [quote author="Todd" date="1291610367"I wouldn't say my stove is any more dirty burning than your masonry heater. It was designed to burn clean low and slow. You have smoke at start up just like the rest of us, don't you?




I dont think any stoves burn efficiently low and slow. When I first started burning my wood boiler, i was burning it with the stack temperature 400-400 deg. It seemed OK to me and thats what folks recomended. Then I got a combustion gas analyizer and tested emissions. CO (carbon monoxide) and  oxygen was way high until I brought my stack temp up into the 500-525 range where I burn it now. Smoke going up the chimney is unburned fuel. When my wood boiler gets into the zone, there is no smoke.

Fuel burning devices always have maximum efficiency at full output. There the heat output will minimize fixed losses. The only way to get high efficiency at lower output is to get a smaller burner.[/quote]

Did your wood boiler have a catalyst or EPA rated? A cat stove can burn clean low and slow if operated correctly. Nothing but steam or heat waves out of my chimney when cat is engaged and this is with low external stack temps under 300 degrees.

http://www.chc-hpba.org/chc_news.htm


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## trailmaker (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks Marty S and Jersey Bill for sharing some of your MH knowledge.  Some guys dream about getting a Ferrari,  I dream about getting a Masonry heater.  A masonry business near me works with Envirotech Radiant Fireplaces.  From what I can tell they are very similar to Tempcast units.  Do you guys know anything about this particular brand of Masonry heaters?
http://www.envirotechfireplaces.com/


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## trailmaker (Dec 30, 2010)

Marty,  I see one of you're interests as "Newfies".  I've got a big brown slobbery one myself.  Wonderful dogs.


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## byQ (Jun 3, 2013)

Wow, this is great thread from the past. I'm the guy building a masonry heater who wondered how much less wood I would be burning as compared to a good wood stove. This thread answered the question from people who have owned both --- 25 to 33% less wood for the masonry heater.


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## begreen (Jun 3, 2013)

4 yr old thread. It's interesting but not exactly a hot topic. We get lots of folks reporting 25% reduction in wood consumption going to a modern stove.  Backwood's Savage noticed similar results going from a pre-EPA metal stove to a Fireview.


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