# Living frugal, practical, saving money and raising healthy children



## DBNH22 (Apr 26, 2014)

Maybe it's just me but it seems like our society becomes exponentially more shallow, materialistic, and immoral with the passing of each year.  The cost of living for the middle class has increased more rapidly than salaries have.  As the father of two young children I am trying my best to lead a frugal and practical lifestyle for my children.  It's important for me that they grow up knowing that there are things far more important in life than video games, TV shows and shiny material possessions.  

I'm interested in what others may be doing to save money, live a frugal and/or practical lifestyle and raise healthy well rounded children as well as what you think of our current day American society in general.


----------



## Bobbin (Apr 26, 2014)

Kid-free household, here (never wanted kids, and was studiously careful in preventing unwanted conception!).

Make sure your kids learn and MASTER  _SKILLS_ (reading, writing,arithmetic) and they master those skills before the "educated" teachers pass them along to the next grade.  I admire teachers, but too many are deficient in the basics; the nuts and bolts? those are the all important _skills. _

I know many teachers.  I admire some, have grave concerns about several others, frankly (even though I like them on a personal level).  Several "qualified" teachers I know would fail what I consider a very basic english grammar test. 

SKILLS. Reading, writing, arithmetic.  SKILLS!


----------



## BrotherBart (Apr 26, 2014)

I know. The country can't last much longer. Kids just want to watch that dang television, talk on the phone and listen to the devil's rock and roll music., Long hair, short skirts and schools teaching that "new math"  will be the downfall of us.

Oh wait...


----------



## jatoxico (Apr 26, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Maybe it's just me but it seems like our society becomes exponentially more shallow, materialistic, and immoral with the passing of each year.  The cost of living for the middle class has increased more rapidly than salaries have.  As the father of two young children I am trying my best to lead a frugal and practical lifestyle for my children.  It's important for me that they grow up knowing that there are things far more important in life than video games, TV shows and shiny material possessions.
> 
> I'm interested in what others may be doing to save money, live a frugal and/or practical lifestyle and raise healthy well rounded children as well as what you think of our current day American society in general.



Not quite what you're asking but one thing I found difficult to accept was when the housing market was going nuts there were a lot of people who were using their houses like ATM's while others lived within their means. After flipping their house for a larger one that they could only afford with a low rate but adjustable loan and/or refinancing to the hilt and using the money on vacations and cars, the chickens came home to roost and some of these folks started bawling about "predatory" lending. No doubt some folks were victims but many many knew what they were doing, they rolled the dice and lost.

So the banks who should've never made those loans to people who couldn't pay got bailed out and many folks who gambled did too, all on the tax payers dime. Meanwhile the people who didn't get caught up in living beyond their means got to pick up the tab. What does that say?


----------



## hossthehermit (Apr 26, 2014)

Best skill they could master is Bobbin's .................. "studiously careful in preventing conception"


----------



## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 27, 2014)

I've made a nice list over there at the teacher roast thread


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Apr 27, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Maybe it's just me but it seems like our society becomes exponentially more shallow, materialistic, and immoral with the passing of each year.  The cost of living for the middle class has increased more rapidly than salaries have.  As the father of two young children I am trying my best to lead a frugal and practical lifestyle for my children.  It's important for me that they grow up knowing that there are things far more important in life than video games, TV shows and shiny material possessions.
> 
> I'm interested in what others may be doing to save money, live a frugal and/or practical lifestyle and raise healthy well rounded children as well as what you think of our current day American society in general.



Ours would be a rather long list but probably most would not find it to their liking. Although we do from time to time give ourselves a "treat" (like that new car we bought last summer) we still try out best to be frugal. One of the best things is being debt free. That should be a goal for everyone.


----------



## begreen (Apr 27, 2014)

Frugality used to be a national virtue. 

Get this book and read it with them.

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Money-Life-Transforming-Relationship/dp/0143115766


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 27, 2014)

Get a good job with good pay and it is much easier to live within your means. I am making that goal very important to my offspring.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Ours would be a rather long list but probably most would not find it to their liking. Although we do from time to time give ourselves a "treat" (like that new care we bought last summer) we still try out best to be frugal. One of the best things is being debt free. That should be a goal for everyone.




Well I'm interested in what's on your  list.  It's one of the reasons that I started this thread.  There may be some things on it that may be beneficial to the rest of us.  

Being debt free is great but this nation is predicated upon the notion that we cannot be happy without certain things and unfortunately many of these things are beyond attainment for the average person without incurring debt.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 28, 2014)

We need a new super-hero for kids, Cheapo-Man and all his exploits at saving money and sticking it to the man.


----------



## begreen (Apr 28, 2014)

This nation was founded with frugality being a respected and patriotic principal. Just because recent leadership says spending is patriotic doesn't make it so. We stayed mostly debt free (only a mortgage) raising two kids and putting them through college by living within our means. That meant putting up with older furniture, in the early years buying at thrift stores, doing our own repairs, heating with wood, not eating out much and not buying prepared meals, growing our own food in summer, canning, etc.. As we got older our incomes improved and we bought a car first to establish credit, then paid it off early. Then we bought a house at a good price in a great neighborhood. When we sold the house it had appreciated about 300%. That allowed us to buy our current house. We worked toward paying off the mortgage 7 yrs. early by sticking to the same principals.

For sure, at times we were lucky, but we kept an eye out and took advantage of opportunities as they came up too. Debt isn't horrible but it should be used only when needed to leverage one's economic position and only at low interest rates.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 28, 2014)

Two things I notice, admittedly not a scientiifc sampling. Folks who are frugal or went through tough times in their formative years always want better for their kids, but it seems these kids are the ones who take everything for granted and cannot live frugally. Also, kids who whose formative years were those of prosperity, are more likely to live on more debt and comsumerism. I was shocked a little while back to hear that alot of kids out of college would rather return to living with their parents instead of getting out on their own cause they didn't want to interrupt thier standard of living, cable TV, big screens, phone plans, cars etc. At 18, I was gone and never looked back.


----------



## begreen (Apr 28, 2014)

Although my parents went through the great depression, growing up in the 60s I never knew hard times or poverty. My dad owned his own successful mechanical contracting business. It seems to me that this is more a matter of critical thinking and common sense. Our kids are pretty frugal right now too, out of necessity. They are not making a whole lot of money.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 28, 2014)

> It seems to me that this is more a matter of critical thinking and common sense.


 
I think of it like obesity, folks who overeat know its making them fat and unhealthy, but they do it anyway for whatever reason. Its not a lack of intellect or common sense. Its pretty simple, eat less, exercise. They just don't want to do it. Same with living within your means: want less, spend less. They just don't want to.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> Two things I notice, admittedly not a scientiifc sampling. Folks who are frugal or went through tough times in their formative years always want better for their kids, but it seems these kids are the ones who take everything for granted and cannot live frugally. Also, kids who whose formative years were those of prosperity, are more likely to live on more debt and comsumerism.* I was shocked a little while back to hear that alot of kids out of college would rather return to living with their parents instead of getting out on their own cause they didn't want to interrupt thier standard of living, cable TV, big screens, phone plans, cars etc. At 18, I was gone and never looked back.*




We've infantilized our children.  One sign of this is the recent healthcare law.  Young adults now can remain on their parents health insurance until they are 26 years of age.  Contrast with this with an individual who grew up in the early 20th century.  By the age of twenty-six they would have long ago moved out of mom and dad's house.  They'd most likely have a home of their own, be married and have children.  Some may argue that it's a reflection of the financial realities of today which are much harsher than they were for previous generations of young adults.  However this is not completely true.  We're now coddling our children at very young ages.  We've stopped keeping score in youth sports because we're afraid little Tommy's feelings might get hurt and he might not think he's "special" anymore. There are many othjer such examples of how we're sheltering our children from life.

We're engendering a very ugly sense of entitlement in our children.  I often get criticized for criticizing others' parenting.  "Who are you to judge?"  But that's the new norm today with regard to parenting or anything else.   All behaviors are equally acceptable and moral.  Judgement, shame, those are just bad words used by intolerant people.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> We've infantilized our children.  One sign of this is the recent healthcare law.  Young adults now can remain on their parents health insurance until they are 26 years of age.  Contrast with this with an individual who grew up in the early 20th century.  By the age of twenty-six they would have long ago moved out of mom and dad's house.  They'd most likely have a home of their own, be married and have children.  Some may argue that it's a reflection of the financial realities of today which are much harsher than they were for previous generations of young adults.  However this is not completely true.  We're now coddling our children at very young ages.  We've stopped keeping score in youth sports because we're afraid little Tommy's feelings might get hurt and he might not think he's "special" anymore. There are many othjer such examples of how we're sheltering our children from life.
> 
> We're engendering a very ugly sense of entitlement in our children.  I often get criticized for criticizing others' parenting.  "Who are you to judge?"  But that's the new norm today with regard to parenting or anything else.   All behaviors are equally acceptable and moral.  Judgement, shame, those are just bad words used by intolerant people.



I agree with a lot of what you said, but in 1900, 26 was about mid life (no joke). times before that, kids went to work in factories before they were teens. Where do you draw that line?

I don't have kids, so I try not to criticize out of ignorance.


----------



## Grisu (Apr 28, 2014)

Backwoods Savage said:


> One of the best things is being debt free. That should be a goal for everyone.





Dana B said:


> Being debt free is great but this nation is predicated upon the notion that we cannot be happy without certain things and unfortunately many of these things are beyond attainment for the average person without incurring debt.



Everyone being debt free means also everyone being savings free. Still something to aspire to? 



mass_burner said:


> Cheapo-Man and all his exploits at saving money and sticking it to the man.



And who is carrying the debt for the saved money?


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Apr 28, 2014)




----------



## Badfish740 (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> *We've* infantilized our children... *We're* now coddling our children at very young ages.  *We've* stopped keeping score in youth sports because *we're *afraid little Tommy's feelings might get hurt and he might not think he's "special" anymore. There are many othjer such examples of how *we're* sheltering our children from life.
> 
> *We're* engendering a very ugly sense of entitlement in our children.  I often get criticized for criticizing others' parenting.  "Who are you to judge?"  But that's the new norm today with regard to parenting or anything else.   All behaviors are equally acceptable and moral.  Judgement, shame, those are just bad words used by intolerant people.



As my dad would say, "Are you French?  What's with all this "we" stuff?"  I'm 32 years old.  I wasn't coddled, I never played a hockey or baseball game that didn't have a winner and a loser, and I bought my first home at age 27 and became a father for the first time at 30.  I worked my way through high school and college, paid for it on my own, bought my first car myself, paid for my gas, insurance, etc...  My children will be expected to do the same.  Society doesn't raise your kids, you do-take responsibility for your own children and don't worry about what others do with theirs.

I also feel compelled to add that I didn't get to where I am solely on my own.  I was helped along the way by parents, friends, family, a good school system, a strong community, great teachers, a publicly funded community college, government grants and subsidized loans.  The OP launched right into the healthcare law as a reason why "we" are giving our kids a sense of entitlement.  Despite all of the "handouts" I received which helped get me where I am today I have a strong work ethic.  I attribute this mostly to my parents.  You can sit around and bellyache about the country going to hell in a handbasket all you want.  It won't change anything.  What you can do is keep your head down, work hard, and worry about yourself.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 28, 2014)

Of course we're all speaking anecdotally here, nothing fits across the board.

Also, alot has to do with the economic circumstances of the times you grew up in. For example, Badfish740 finished high school and went onto college in one of the best economic times in American history. Had it been a different time, there would have been no job to get while in high school/college and home interest rates may have priced him out of the market. Not to imply that Badfish740 wouldn't have prospered anyway, just sayin that some folks get stronger head winds than others and you need to factor that in. Like someone said, its not how high you are, its how far you've climbed to get there that shows chararcter.


----------



## BrotherBart (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Maybe it's just me...



It is.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> As my dad would say, "Are you French?  What's with all this "we" stuff?"  I'm 32 years old.  I wasn't coddled, I never played a hockey or baseball game that didn't have a winner and a loser, and I bought my first home at age 27 and became a father for the first time at 30.  I worked my way through high school and college, paid for it on my own, bought my first car myself, paid for my gas, insurance, etc...  My children will be expected to do the same.  Society doesn't raise your kids, you do-take responsibility for your own children and don't worry about what others do with theirs.
> 
> I also feel compelled to add that I didn't get to where I am solely on my own.  I was helped along the way by parents, friends, family, a good school system, a strong community, great teachers, a publicly funded community college, government grants and subsidized loans.  The OP launched right into the healthcare law as a reason why "we" are giving our kids a sense of entitlement.  Despite all of the "handouts" I received which helped get me where I am today I have a strong work ethic.  I attribute this mostly to my parents.  You can sit around and bellyache about the country going to hell in a handbasket all you want.  It won't change anything.  *What you can do is keep your head down, work hard, and worry about yourself.*




oui, oui

I was speaking in general terms regarding what I see to be societal trends.


Working hard, keeping my head down and worrying about myself would work just fine if I and my loved ones live in a vacuum but unfortunately we don't.  We must share the world with everyone else.  The actions of others and the things which they advocate for as societal rules and norms more often than not can and do directly impact the lives of myself and children with regard to our safety, freedom and potential for happiness.  I'm fine with minding my own business and letting others do whatever the hell they want until their ignorance, apathy, or arrogance somehow has a negative bearing on my life.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Grisu said:


> Everyone being debt free means also everyone being savings free. Still something to aspire to?
> 
> 
> 
> And who is carrying the debt for the saved money?




    That's a theoretical.  In the real world in which we live obviously not everyone is going to be debt free at the same time, but the answer, regarding one's personal life, is an emphatic yes!   Having less debt is one way of reducing the control that others have over you.

But the other point I was trying to get at is that people will often unnecessarily go into debt for the pursuit of materials things which ultimately do not add to their utility of life or their happiness.  No one is immune to this.  I know that I'm not.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said, but in 1900, 26 was about mid life (no joke). times before that, kids went to work in factories before they were teens. Where do you draw that line?
> 
> I don't have kids, so I try not to criticize out of ignorance.




Being a parent certainly does give you a different perspective but I wouldn't say that not having kids completely negates any thoughts you might have on the matter.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Being a parent certainly does give you a different perspective but I wouldn't say that not having kids completely negates any thoughts you might have on the matter.


(It sure has not dampened the requirement that I subsidize children  )


----------



## Jags (Apr 28, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> (It sure has not dampened the requirement that I subsidize children  )


To the tune of thousands per year.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2014)

We live surprisingly well on suprisingly little. It can be done. Our standard of living seems to be  quite a bit higher than many of my relatives that make more money. Yet they are always broke. The biggest waste of money IMHO as i see it as follows.
1. Lottery tickets. Its amazing how much you can waste on this addiction.
2. Fast food,take out. Some people do this for 3 meals a day. No wonder they are 300+Lbs.
3. Latest electronic gadgets,video games ect. Got to have the latest one out!
4. Tobacco ,all forms
5. Cable TV

We eat out about once or twice a month unless on vacation. Other than that the above list does not apply to our 5 person family.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2014)

Just the other day one of my kids friends commented that they have a lot more expensive toys than my kids. Its important to note here that the kid in questions parents are in danger of losing their house due to not paying their RE taxes. Does this make any sense?
Iv never seen a correlation between good kids and expensive toys.


----------



## firefighterjake (Apr 28, 2014)

Burn wood ... and have the kids help ... they might not like the stacking, but one day they will appreciate it.

Reduce or eliminate tobacco products, alcohol, junk food, lottery tickets and eating out.

Spend more on time with children instead of spending more on money for the latest electronics, toys, clothes, etc.

That said ... make sure children have time for themselves ... hauling kids around in a weekend marathon of going from one activity, group or sport back to back is not necessarily a good thing ... learning how to relax and find peace with one self by one's self is a good thing.

Look around the house and see what things you never use ... and have a yard sale or give to a charity. In this day and age it's nuts that we have huge homes and still have so much stuff sometimes that we need to rent storage units.

Set an example ... before purchasing things ask yourself if you really need that item ... or if you want that item ... and why. Is buying that second or third chainsaw really necessary ... is it necessary to replace that five year old car ... do you really need the latest phone ... or the largest ATV. Be content with all that you have ... and dwell not on all the stuff other people have.

Plant a garden.

Guess that's enough for now.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> We live surprisingly well on suprisingly little. It can be done. Our standard of living seems to be  quite a bit higher than many of my relatives that make more money. Yet they are always broke. The biggest waste of money IMHO as i see it as follows.
> 1. Lottery tickets. Its amazing how much you can waste on this addiction.
> 2. Fast food,take out. Some people do this for 3 meals a day. No wonder they are 300+Lbs.
> 3. Latest electronic gadgets,video games ect. Got to have the latest one out!
> ...




I agree with all of these things.

We got rid of the cable TV two years ago.  It wasn't even about the money.  It was more about the fact that 95% of what's on TV is mind numbingly stupid and a waste of time.  Since we got rid of it we get more done around the home and spend more time with the kids.  Saving $60 a month is the icing on the cake.  Sometimes I'll tell people that we don't have cable and they look at me like I just told them I believe Elvis is still alive.  I guess  it's hard for some people to believe that there other thinsg that could occupy their time at home.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Burn wood ... and have the kids help ... they might not like the stacking, but one day they will appreciate it.
> 
> Reduce or eliminate tobacco products, alcohol, junk food, lottery tickets and eating out.
> 
> ...




All good advice.   Many feel to grasp the concept of need versus want.  There's a great deal of psychological research behind all of the advertising that we're subjected to which has made it very successful.

Without a doubt the ugliest display of crass consumerism has to be the madness that is Black Friday.  I wonder what Darwin would have to say about humans trampling one another to death to save $50 on the latest iPhone.


----------



## BrotherBart (Apr 28, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Reduce or eliminate tobacco products, alcohol, junk food..



NO!!


----------



## Badfish740 (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> We got rid of the cable TV two years ago.  It wasn't even about the money.  It was more about the fact that 95% of what's on TV is mind numbingly stupid and a waste of time.  Since we got rid of it we get more done around the home and spend more time with the kids.  Saving $60 a month is the icing on the cake.  Sometimes I'll tell people that we don't have cable and they look at me like I just told them I believe Elvis is still alive.  I guess  it's hard for some people to believe that there other thinsg that could occupy their time at home.





Dana B said:


> Without a doubt the ugliest display of crass consumerism has to be the madness that is Black Friday.  I wonder what Darwin would have to say about humans trampling one another to death to save $50 on the latest iPhone.



Ok...great, you don't have cable or shop on Black Friday.  Would you like some kind of award?  Look, I get that you're concerned about the world your kids are growing up in.  Guess what?  We all are.  I'm sure you mean well, but when you post statements like this:



Dana B said:


> I often get criticized for criticizing others' parenting.  "Who are you to judge?"  But that's the new norm today with regard to parenting or anything else.   All behaviors are equally acceptable and moral.  Judgement, shame, those are just bad words used by intolerant people.



You come off like a sanctimonious blowhard.  Not having cable or shopping on Black Friday doesn't make you a good parent anymore than having cable or shopping on Black Friday makes you a bad one.  There's much more to parenting and to life.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> Ok...great, you don't have cable or shop on Black Friday.  Would you like some kind of award?  Look, I get that you're concerned about the world your kids are growing up in.  Guess what?  We all are.  I'm sure you mean well, but when you post statements like this:
> 
> 
> 
> You come off like a sanctimonious blowhard.  Not having cable or shopping on Black Friday doesn't make you a good parent anymore than having cable or shopping on Black Friday makes you a bad one.  There's much more to parenting and to life.




Good points.  It's probably best to look at the sum of a person's behavior rather than just one example when judging them as a person.  I don't think everyone that has cable TV is bad but as a general rule I far too many people's lives are centered around television and other forms of mindless entertainment and far too many people have forfeited the critical thinking process for soundbites and the status quo.

As far as Black Friday, have you ever seen the videos of these people trampling each other or feeding at the $2 DVD trough?  It really is the epitome of today's crass, vulgar materialism.

Ultimately I don't care if I'm labelled sanctimonious, a snob, a blowhard etc etc We all judge each other all day long.  I'd like to think I'm more up front and honest about it.


----------



## Badfish740 (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I don't think everyone that has cable TV is bad but as a general rule I far too many people's lives are centered around television and other forms of mindless entertainment and far too many people have forfeited the critical thinking process for soundbites and the status quo.



I'm willing to bet that it's far fewer than you think.



Dana B said:


> As far as Black Friday, have you ever seen the videos of these people trampling each other or feeding at the $2 DVD trough?  It really is the epitome of today's crass, vulgar materialism.



Sure-I usually have a good chuckle afterwards too 



Dana B said:


> Ultimately I don't care if I'm labelled sanctimonious, a snob, a blowhard etc etc We all judge each other all day long.  I'd like to think I'm more up front and honest about it.



If you're that up front and honest about it in person you may want to make sure you have a good plastic surgeon specializing in rhinoplasty on speed dial.  See the quote in my signature line?  It's not just a catchy country tune by Billy Currington, it's a pretty good summation of my outlook on life.  Loosen up a bit.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Apr 28, 2014)

Some of you ought to be glad you don't have kids. Raising kids isn't like it was when you were a kid. I hear so many people making comments about kids and school like its just like it used to be. I get a chuckle every time I hear those kinds of comments. If you have little ones all I have to say you better have them, adding and subtracting before they get to preschool. Yes I said preschool. And I would suggest all kids having 2 years of preschool before kindergarten. Extremism is in the educational system as kids from other countries are whipping our butts. All I can say is good luck and hope your kid isn't harmed by it all.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 28, 2014)

Huntindog1 said:


> Some of you ought to be glad you don't have kids. Raising kids isn't like it was when you were a kid. I hear so many people making comments about kids and school like its just like it used to be. I get a chuckle every time I hear those kinds of comments. If you have little ones all I have to say you better have them, adding and subtracting before they get to preschool. Yes I said preschool. And I would suggest all kids having 2 years of preschool before kindergarten. Extremism is in the educational system as kids from other countries are whipping our butts. All I can say is good luck and hope your kid isn't harmed by it all.




You took the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## Badfish740 (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> You took the words right out of my mouth.



So clue the rest of us in.  How is school harming our kids?  Again, I went through the public school system not all that long ago and apparently against all odds, turned out fine.  How the heck did that happen?



Huntindog1 said:


> Extremism is in the educational system as kids from other countries are whipping our butts.



Ah yes...this old chestnut.  Guess what, the kids in the other countries "whip our butts" for two reasons.  The first is that they cherry pick the students and we educate everyone.  The second is that in other countries (China especially) children are simply taught to be human encyclopedias that regurgitate memorized facts on command-the lowest level of learning.  In the United States and most Western democracies we teach at the higher end of Bloom's Taxonomy (analysis, synthesis, evaluation).  Case in point, we had an intern in our office who was in the 11th grade here in the U.S.-he had gone to school in China for grades K-10.  He was like a machine in terms of learning a process with clearly defined steps and being able to execute it flawlessly, but when it came to a task that required independent thinking he fell apart.  Nice kid, but you could see how his thought process worked because of the environment he came from.  That kind of education makes for good party members who serve the state and that's about it.  Tell me again why we need to be worried.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I'm interested in what others may be doing to save money, live a frugal and/or practical lifestyle and raise healthy well rounded children as well as what you think of our current day American society in general.


Webbie could weigh in on this as he once stated that in his youth he lived on $1 a day for quite sometime. I started long ago when i was single.
Some of my friends made higher salaries than i did but i was the one spending 4 months on a south pacific island in the winter every other year. They all had new trucks every year though, so i guess its what ever you think is important, your priorities.
To each his own.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Apr 28, 2014)

Well the new advanced curriculums at new accelerated rates having no time to teach the basics. Learning and stress are related , look it up. Stressing kids out diminishes a kids ability to learn and to remember things. Learning is intimately connected with emotions. A kid feeling good about themselves is connected to how well they learn.  We talk about education but its really neuroscience. Learning is a science.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2014)

As a parent i try to take care of the kids needs ,but their wants are something they should work towards. You would not see nearly as many kids with expensive sneakers,phones,cars ect if those kids had to earn at least some of the money that pays for it. Something that comes too easy and without cost or work is seldom appreciated.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Apr 28, 2014)

I only say extremism is in the educational system As there is that mentality that we must have smarter kids than other countries. So win at all costs.
Plus we are now bringing in graduates from other countries at alarming rates. 

A local College President reported to the visiting Parents that there are more gifted kids in India than we have kids totally in the USA. I know this as I was in attendance when he spoke.


----------



## Ashful (Apr 28, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Maybe it's just me but it seems like our society becomes exponentially more shallow, materialistic, and immoral with the passing of each year.  The cost of living for the middle class has increased more rapidly than salaries have.  As the father of two young children I am trying my best to lead a frugal and practical lifestyle for my children.  It's important for me that they grow up knowing that there are things far more important in life than video games, TV shows and shiny material possessions.
> 
> I'm interested in what others may be doing to save money, live a frugal and/or practical lifestyle and raise healthy well rounded children as well as what you think of our current day American society in general.


Interesting thread, and I would definitely agree with the "shallow, materialistic, and immoral," summary.  I blame bad TV programming (eg, Real Housewives) for at least two of those three factors.

However, on the cost of living in the middle class, it actually appears much the opposite, to me.  Maybe folks are just living beyond their means, compared to my parents' generation, but they seem to be doing without less.  Central air conditioning and two new cars seems to be the norm, along with a few wide-screen LCD's, computers, iPads, smart phones, and nice bicycles for the kids.  I didn't know too many friends so well off in the 1970's / 80's.

Computers, TV's, bicycles, appliances... all the expensive things that fill the house of the average middle class family can be had for a very small fraction of what they cost our parents.  I think each of our bicycles cost my dad close two days of his salary at the time, I just bought my son a bike for less than I make per hour, and my job title now is what his was then.  My dad's 19" color TV in 1980 cost the same (not adjusted) as my new 70" LCD.  I didn't know anyone who bought a new car before age 40, when I was growing up... now kids seem to be getting them as college graduation presents.

Coming around to your main point though, it's a real challenge to make kids understand the value of working for a dollar, and being frugal with what you have.  Then again, maybe we're focused on preparing them for the world that was, rather than the world that is.  The Amish near here had an enormous battle with the state many years back, over pulling their kids out of school after grade 8.  The state argued that these kids wouldn't be prepared for life in this world.  The Amish asked, "who's world, yours or ours?"

Me?  I always liked the Cliff Huxtable model:
Theo:  Dad, are we rich?
Cliff:  No, you're poor.  Your mother and I are rich, but you're poor.


----------



## firefighterjake (Apr 29, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> NO!!



Thought that might get a rise out of you.


----------



## firefighterjake (Apr 29, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> So clue the rest of us in.  How is school harming our kids?  Again, I went through the public school system not all that long ago and apparently against all odds, turned out fine.  How the heck did that happen?
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes...this old chestnut.  Guess what, the kids in the other countries "whip our butts" for two reasons.  The first is that they cherry pick the students and we educate everyone.  The second is that in other countries (China especially) children are simply taught to be human encyclopedias that regurgitate memorized facts on command-the lowest level of learning.  In the United States and most Western democracies we teach at the higher end of Bloom's Taxonomy (analysis, synthesis, evaluation).  Case in point, we had an intern in our office who was in the 11th grade here in the U.S.-he had gone to school in China for grades K-10.  He was like a machine in terms of learning a process with clearly defined steps and being able to execute it flawlessly, but when it came to a task that required independent thinking he fell apart.  Nice kid, but you could see how his thought process worked because of the environment he came from.  That kind of education makes for good party members who serve the state and that's about it.  Tell me again why we need to be worried.




This could also explain why some affluent Chinese families are now sending their children to high schools here in the U.S. ... at private, religious and public schools.


----------



## DBNH22 (Apr 29, 2014)

Joful said:


> Interesting thread, and I would definitely agree with the "shallow, materialistic, and immoral," summary.  I blame bad TV programming (eg, Real Housewives) for at least two of those three factors.
> 
> However, on the cost of living in the middle class, it actually appears much the opposite, to me.  Maybe folks are just living beyond their means, compared to my parents' generation, but they seem to be doing without less.  Central air conditioning and two new cars seems to be the norm, along with a few wide-screen LCD's, computers, iPads, smart phones, and nice bicycles for the kids.  I didn't know too many friends so well off in the 1970's / 80's.
> 
> ...



That's a good point about the luxury items and how they're more affordable today.  Aside from the financial aspect of it I'm also interested in the philosophical arguments behind it.  As a society we're increasingly measuring our worth as people and our happiness by the amount of money we make or the quantity and quality of our material possessions.      

When a mom or dad works 60 hours a week or more so that they can afford a big fancy house with lots of nice furniture, appliances and electronic gadgets in it  and two expensive vehicles in the garage but has no time to ever; eat dinner with the children, go to their sports games, play with them in the yard, read them a book, etc etc then is it really worth it?  I say no.  How many on their deathbeds look back upon their life and think "gee I wish I'd spent more time at work."  I'd think very few.  It's more like "I wish I'd spent more time with the kids or wife and less at work."  

Yes youtube videos of Black Friday are funny.  But if you think about it for more than minute rather than just laughing and shrugging it off it's actually quite disturbing.  Consider that people have actually died on numerous occasions because of this phenomenon.  How funny would it be if someone you cared about was trampled to death at a Walmart by a bunch of people trying to save a few bucks on a DVD player?


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Apr 29, 2014)

I had the luxury to make less money and work 3 days a week (Thanks mostly to my wife's amazing support). Not going to brag about our lifestyle like a jackass- our tastes are fairly simple, but we more or less do what we want.

I was on a field test with a young engineer and a software person who is a mom- the young engineer was blown away by the idea that I can play PS3 if I really want, though I'm married and mid 40's. My secret- no kids. He was more or less convinced to not have kids by the end of the fielding, though the "Idiocracy" argument was discussed.

When I have had serious heart to heart conversations with older folks- some have said (with the caveat of loving their kids more than life, etc) that if they could go back in time, they would have thought longer about whether having kids was the right decision or if it was as inevitable as it was thought. Reducing the impact on the environment through our choices seems wise- just pointing out that not putting more people on the Earth could be part of that choice.


----------



## Badfish740 (Apr 29, 2014)

Dana B said:


> That's a good point about the luxury items and how they're more affordable today.  Aside from the financial aspect of it I'm also interested in the philosophical arguments behind it.  As a society we're increasingly measuring our worth as people and our happiness by the amount of money we make or the quantity and quality of our material possessions.



There you go again with the "we."  You seem to projecting this attitude on everyone around you just so that you can trumpet that you're so above it all.



Dana B said:


> When a mom or dad works 60 hours a week or more so that they can afford a big fancy house with lots of nice furniture, appliances and electronic gadgets in it  and two expensive vehicles in the garage but has no time to ever; eat dinner with the children, go to their sports games, play with them in the yard, read them a book, etc etc then is it really worth it?  I say no.  How many on their deathbeds look back upon their life and think "gee I wish I'd spent more time at work."  I'd think very few.  It's more like "I wish I'd spent more time with the kids or wife and less at work."



I think you're missing something.  Are there folks who work crazy hours to afford a fancy upper middle class lifestyle all the while neglecting their kids?  Sure.  What really concerns me is the fact that in many cases today, both parents have to work out of the home just to make a decent living and afford a home in a good school district/community.  I make $46K a year and work 40 hours a week with an hour commute each way, but that $46K alone just covers the mortgage on my 1960s era 2 bedroom 1 bath 1000SF ranch "starter home" with a $7000 a year property tax bill.  That's why my wife has to work.  We don't want it to be that way, but the alternative is either renting in a decent area and never building equity in a home or moving to an area with cheaper homes and (usually) poorer performing schools)-at least for New Jersey and the surrounding area, living a "simple" lifestyle costs far too much money.  There are lots of parents we know who are in the same boat.  We don't drive fancy cars, we do potluck cookouts on weekends together, we trade coupons, and a couple of us help each other process wood for the winter.



Dana B said:


> How funny would it be if someone you cared about was trampled to death at a Walmart by a bunch of people trying to save a few bucks on a DVD player?



I wouldn't think it was funny, but I also wouldn't drive myself crazy thinking about it.


----------



## Lake Girl (Apr 29, 2014)

As to morals and values, my husband and I made the choice of one working parent when our kids were younger.  Why have children if someone else is going to raise them (ie day care)?  By grade school, your value system has been passed on.  A big expectation for us was higher education - trade school, university, college.

Education savings plans have been essential in putting our 6 children through university; started when they were babies ... just pay attention to the rules. We contributed a reasonable amount - not what they projected we should invest but what we could afford.  These plans covered tuition and book costs.  Minimal, if any, student loans.  When the kids started working as teens, they had two bank accounts and split their pay between the two.  One for them to use and one for post-secondary education.

Our house is big on hand-me-downs or recycles.  Furniture is a big one for me ... many pieces have been acquired from parents/grandparents.  All our dressers are real wood - some in sad shape when they were acquired - multiple layers of paint and drawers that had to be reglued.  When my son moved out, I finally refinished his dresser.  He was amazed it was the same dresser!  Saved him that additional cost... a gift from his Great-Aunt with Mom's help.  The same can be done with garage sale and second hand shop finds.  Clothes are a mix of new and hand-me-down... their cousins can be seen sporting some of my kids old clothes that have been outgrown.  The girls have gone to another level - checking out second hand clothes stores in the hopes of vintage finds!  There are many clothes exchanges for kids - just have to find them.  Frugal and less to go to a land-fill.

Home-grown/home-cooked is the best.  Better for you and less costly.  Fast/Restaurant food should be the rarity.  This has become more important in our household as some of us have intolerances to food dyes, preservatives and conditioners of processed food.  Interesting book by Dr. Terry Wahl who has diminished the progression of her MS by a variation of a paleo diet.  Her Ted Talk:  http://terrywahls.com/minding-your-mitochondria-dr-terry-wahls-at-tedxiowacity/

So far so good; no teenage pregnancy, no drug problems, 3 of the 6 educated (3 in progress).  YMMV


----------



## Grisu (Apr 29, 2014)

These are some of the values I would like my children to learn:

- Friends and skills are the most important things you can acquire in life.
- Money is a tool, not a goal. And: WE cannot prepare for the future by saving money.
- Take care of the earth. We depend on her, not she on us. 
- We are all in this together. Your life should not be comfortable because someone else's is miserable. 
- Treat others with respect if you want to be treated with respect. 
- Life is not fair but that should not stop us from trying to make it so. ("Them as can do has to do for them as can’t. And someone has to speak up for them as has no voices.")
- Think for yourself and question everything. Don't let others do the thinking for you.


----------



## Grisu (Apr 29, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> View attachment 132345



Way too much accolades. That's just simple accounting and as profound as 1-1 = 0. I am just re-iterating the obvious:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...y-means-savings-for-the-private-sector-2011-2


----------



## BrotherBart (Apr 29, 2014)

Grisu said:


> - Money is a tool



- And so are some people.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> $7000 a year property tax bill


 
Wow that's high. I live in a pretty toney area with great schools and mine is $6200/yr on a 2000 sq ft, 1/2 acre. Do you have alot of land?.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

+1 on the China education system. I will be impressed when they can leverage their brilliant "test takers" into a booming, innovative, private sector that includes opportunity for all classes.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 29, 2014)

Great thread guys. I have kids and am at that tipping point of deciding to dedicate more to work or more to life. Each has rewards.


----------



## Badfish740 (Apr 29, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> Wow that's high. I live in a pretty toney area with great schools and mine is $6200/yr on a 2000 sq ft, 1/2 acre. Do you have alot of land?.



1/4 acre lot, 1000 SF 2 bedroom/1 bath 1960s era ranch.  We are sort of at the extreme end here in NJ.  Neighbors of ours have a four bedroom/2 bath house and nearly a half acre and they're paying over $10K a year.  The property tax problem in NJ is due to our outdated school funding formulas, the fact that we have 500+ municipalities, 600+ school districts, everything is done at the local level, plus there are overlapping county and state government services and bureaucracies, etc...but that's besides the point.  I was just making it clear that just because mom and dad both work outside the home and schedules are tight, it doesn't automatically mean we're doing it to fund the payments on our matching Mercedes convertibles and our yearly getaways to Fiji.  That said, we still put our kids first, always make time for family dinner, and somehow, we get by.  Oh, and we watch TV together as a family sometimes 



Highbeam said:


> Great thread guys. I have kids and am at that tipping point of deciding to dedicate more to work or more to life. Each has rewards.



I work for a public college here in NJ.  Part of the reason I sought out this line of work after seven years of a very fast paced 24/7 kind of job was the work/life balance that higher education offers.  I'm never going to be upper middle class, make as much money as my friends in banking, engineering, or the pharma industry do, but I do see my kids more than they do.  I'm not starving by any means, and I have job security, but the line of work that my wife (a teacher) and I both chose means that we need to make hard choices sometimes and say "sorry, but we can't afford that."  In the end though, the time with my children will have been more than worth it.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

As of about 3 years ago, my philosophy has been to have the least amount of stuff possible. Been cleaning out my basement since then, box by box, nothing new goes in unless it has an immediate need. Made $2100 from selling all the unused stuff in basement I don't use. If i had my choice, my house would be furnished in the sparse Japanese style. no stuff, no need for structures to hold them.


----------



## begreen (Apr 29, 2014)

Good plan. Sounds like you are ready to move on a boat. 

PS: Want to come out and help me clean out crap? I have a lifetime of stuff including the original Amiga computer that should find a better home.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> Good plan. Sounds like you are ready to move on a boat.
> PS: Want to come out and help me clean out crap? I have a lifetime of stuff including the original Amiga computer that should find a better home.


I spent the first 40 years of my life accumulating "stuff" and will spend the rest of it getting rid of most of it. Had a blast along the way though. At this point my time and what i do with it,is way more important than "stuff".


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 29, 2014)

I think most of us here are pretty good at managing our finances. Who would go to all the trouble to heat with wood and then blow money needlessly and unnecessarily on other stuff. At present im trying to plan for a month in hawaii next year with the wife and kids. Sounds like quality time to me. I think its doable.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

begreen said:


> Good plan. Sounds like you are ready to move on a boat.
> 
> PS: Want to come out and help me clean out crap? I have a lifetime of stuff including the original Amiga computer that should find a better home.


 

I can talk you through it. You know, I've become quite ruthless in the last 3 years in terms of "saving stuff for later". Are you attached to it or just haven't got around to getting rid of it? The latter is always easier.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 29, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> 1960s era 2 bedroom 1 bath 1000SF ranch "starter home" with a $7000 a year property tax bill.  .


Wow  I knew the property taxes were high in NJ but thats one hefty bill for that size house. And thats after tax money.Add in that you got to make around $10,000 at your job just to bring home the 7K for the bill. I guess i wont be complaining about my $460 a year tax bill for a 3000 Sf 100 Yr old Duplex in Pa. Percentage wise my taxes are about  .075% of the homes value. A $7000 tax bill here would equate to a $1Million home value.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> $460 a year tax bill---Percentage wise my taxes are about  .075% of the homes value.


 
wait...what? are you sure about these numbers?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 29, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> wait...what? are you sure about these numbers?


Just added em up. One bill in the spring for $320 and one in the fall for $140  The casino rebate helps about $80 a yr on the one for $140, the school tax bill so that bill would be $80 more if not for the Casino rebate for all in PA. Was supposed to pay the whole thing when proposed but you know how that works ,everyones hand in the pot.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 29, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Just added em up. One bill in the spring for $320 and one in the fall for $140  The casino rebate helps about $80 a yr on the one for $140, the school tax bill so that bill would be $80 more if not for the Casino rebate for all in PA. Was supposed to pay the whole thing when proposed but you know how that works ,everyones hand in the pot.


 

sorry, i didn't notice you put the % in  "my taxes are about .075%", I thought $460 was 7.5% of your home's value.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 29, 2014)

Home is valued at about 60-70K  Lot is only 7500Sf . Got the place for next to nothing , & rehabbed it.


----------



## begreen (Apr 29, 2014)

Your property taxes are exceptionally low.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 29, 2014)

mass_burner said:


> I can talk you through it. You know, I've become quite ruthless in the last 3 years in terms of "saving stuff for later". Are you attached to it or just haven't got around to getting rid of it? The latter is always easier.


 
I've got a pack rat problem. I want to get rid of it but it is too good to trash and to donate it would be a waste too. Things like steel stock, lengths of steel. What do you do with it to make money? Are you a craigslist type guy? I don't need to make much but a couple bucks is better than trashing it.

Things that I paid for, are every bit as valuable as they once were, but I have no need for them any more. Seems the time it takes to sell an item would eat up every bit of money I would expect to make.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 30, 2014)

begreen said:


> Your property taxes are exceptionally low.


Seems new houses are not so lucky. But old ones are not re-assessed very often.  Not bad for 3000SF


----------



## Woodman37 (Apr 30, 2014)

I am 38 years old and the father of two healthy beautiful children. I guess what I try to get across to my kids is family is everything. I see the effects broken homes have on kids and I think that is what's wrong now a days. No one tries anymore divorce is easy. I have been married for 14 years which is unusual now a days particularly in my age group. I have worked for everything I have and do my best to provide a good home life for my family. I try hard to teach my kids what was taught to me by my grandfather. Things most young kids don't do now a days. Like changing your own oil and knowing a little bit about most things so you aren't helpless. It's the little things that I hope will give my kids a good head start in life.


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 30, 2014)

Tastes and parenting styles swing back and forth...70s parents were as a group pretty laissez-faire and/or absent compared to today's.  The culture that today's kids have to work and compete and find a mate in are pretty different too....if my kids grow up to be successful, it is going to be more due to how they are wired than anything I can take credit for.  Give them food, security, a lot of laughs and decent role models for life and marriage, and get out of the way.  Other than that, its all a roll of the dice.

Your kids know you better by the time they are 6 than you know yourself.  They're watching your every move, and what you do and how you act with others are far more important than what you think you are doing and like to say about it.

Dana--frugality taken to extremes is a vice, and in a family environment can be very limiting and harmful.  Many of us grow up to do/be the opposite of our parents.  A lot of folks who are now over-indulging came from homes with the opposite values, taken to extremes.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 30, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I've got a pack rat problem. I want to get rid of it but it is too good to trash and to donate it would be a waste too. Things like steel stock, lengths of steel. What do you do with it to make money? Are you a craigslist type guy? I don't need to make much but a couple bucks is better than trashing it.
> 
> Things that I paid for, are every bit as valuable as they once were, but I have no need for them any more. Seems the time it takes to sell an item would eat up every bit of money I would expect to make.


 

Best option for you is to have a garage sale or 2 or 3. Yes, I have sold on CL, but only a few items, lots of flakes there. Most on ebay. Another option is finding a local junk hauler and make a deal that you want to pay nothing to get rid of the stuff, but then offer some valuable items so the guy can resell them. I found a guy like that locally. Point is to get rid of the stuff with minimal effort and no cost. You'll be surprised how quickly you forget about it, the hrad part is always letting go.


----------



## mass_burner (Apr 30, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> 70s parents were as a group pretty laissez-faire and/or absent compared to today's.


 
yes, i loved it. couldn't imaging living like today's kids with parents all over you.


----------



## Mrs. Krabappel (Apr 30, 2014)

Parenting rule#1   Visibly, openly, physically, unconditionally love on your kids all the time.  
Parenting rule #2   See rule #1

Whether or not you buy them a car, don't buy them a car, shop black Friday, or shop the flea market is immaterial.   It all comes out in the wash.   Children belong to themselves.  We only have the privilege of providing love, care, and possibly some basic skills if they are open to learning or emulating them.


----------



## Ncountry (Apr 30, 2014)

A lot of great advice. As an self employed/unemployed/self employed .........builder we do not have the nicest house,yard,car,toys...etc.This is a direct result of our priorities.I have friends that have all these, some having to move to get them, but I do not see an increase in their families happiness. Often much less. But we do have a fair amount of family time. We could be riding bike ,hiking,spending time at camp,fishing... But we do get to spend a good amount of time as a family. One thing is for certain, I will never die stressing over the occasionally unkempt yard,house or the new truck I did not buy.


----------



## Ashful (May 1, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Reducing the impact on the environment through our choices seems wise- just pointing out that not putting more people on the Earth could be part of that choice.


The trouble here, Adios... is you're the demographic we need to have kids.  The ever-shrinking intellectual component of our society is being swamped by those at the bottom, mindlessly cranking out kids three and four at a time.



Lake Girl said:


> As to morals and values, my husband and I made the choice of one working parent when our kids were younger.  Why have children if someone else is going to raise them (ie day care)?


I respect your decision, but I wouldn't be too quick to criticize those who allow others to do the day-to-day either.  You gotta do what works for your family. It seems those allowing others to "raise their kids" aren't doing too poorly.

http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/listing-alumni.php


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 1, 2014)

Joful said:


> I respect your decision, but I wouldn't be too quick to criticize those who allow others to do the day-to-day either.  You gotta do what works for your family. It seems those allowing others to "raise their kids" aren't doing too poorly.
> 
> http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/listing-alumni.php


Not sure how I was quoted talking about my husband. I hope he's handsome.


----------



## Jags (May 1, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Not sure how I was quoted talking about my husband. I hope he's handsome.


Hmmm...I can see wifey being a little upset about this.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 1, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Not sure how I was quoted talking about my husband.



I knew it! I knew it!


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 1, 2014)

For us the cost of daycare for 3 kids was not worth the wife working. Im sure thats a factor in many cases. Single parent families
have it that much harder.


----------



## Badfish740 (May 1, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Not sure how I was quoted talking about my husband. I hope he's handsome.



AP-stop lusting after LakeGirl's man!  



Lake Girl said:


> As to morals and values, my husband and I made the choice of one working parent when our kids were younger.  Why have children if someone else is going to raise them (ie day care)?



I have to chime in here too-looks like LakeGirl lives in rural Ontario.  Biiiiiiiig difference in cost of living, job opportunities, available social services, etc...between there and the states, especially metro areas of the Northeast where many of us live.  It's a Catch 22-where I live, if you want a home of your own and a child or two, you need a total household income of $90-100K because of housing costs, taxes, commuting costs, taxes, daycare costs, and oh yeah, more taxes.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 1, 2014)




----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 1, 2014)

Joful said:


> I respect your decision, but I wouldn't be too quick to criticize those who allow others to do the day-to-day either.  You gotta do what works for your family. It seems those allowing others to "raise their kids" aren't doing too poorly.
> http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/listing-alumni.php


Absolutely,very common among professionals.Both parents working. Does not reflect one way or the other as to the sincerity of the parent.


----------



## Ashful (May 1, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Not sure how I was quoted talking about my husband. I hope he's handsome.


Sorry, I fixed it now.  That was a response to a post by Lake Girl.


----------



## Ashful (May 1, 2014)

Mrs. Krabappel said:


> Parenting rule#1   Visibly, openly, physically, unconditionally love on your kids all the time.
> Parenting rule #2   See rule #1


The most common defense of all bad parents:  "I'm a good parent, I love my kids."

I suspect the best parents are those who are sort of on the fence about their kids.


----------



## Grisu (May 1, 2014)

Joful said:


> The most common defense of all bad parents:  "I'm a good parent, I love my kids."
> 
> I suspect the best parents are those who are sort of on the fence about their kids.



Then I must be a bad parent because rule #1 is exactly what I am doing. Does not mean I approve of all their behaviors or don't see their weaknesses but that does not impact my love for them one iota. Btw. The best parenting approach I have encountered so far: http://www.amazon.com/Duct-Tape-Parenting-Respectful-Responsible/dp/1937134180 It can be tough but I can see every day the benefits of it.


----------



## Jags (May 1, 2014)

Joful said:


> The mod's will have to tell you why.


I am aware of no mod actions on this.  My bet is that is was a flub while quoting a previous post.

Confirmed - you are missing [/quote] after APs part of the post.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 1, 2014)

Yeah. When a post is edited the last edit date and time shows up in the bottom right corner of the post.

ETA: Like this one.


----------



## Jags (May 1, 2014)

It may now show my timestamp as I went in to confirm.  I made no changes, however.


----------



## Ashful (May 1, 2014)

Doh!  I don't even have fat fingers to blame.  I'll blame the sugar high... we had Honey Comb in the house this morning, a rare treat!

Thanks, guys.  I'll go fix the post.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 1, 2014)

Joful said:


> Doh!  I don't even have fat fingers to blame.  I'll blame the sugar high... we had Honey Comb in the house this morning, a rare treat!
> 
> Thanks, guys.  I'll go fix the post.


Well, whatever happened- I want to thank you for introducing me to Chad. We are very happy


----------



## Jags (May 1, 2014)




----------



## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

Woodman37 said:


> I am 38 years old and the father of two healthy beautiful children. I guess what I try to get across to my kids is family is everything. I see the effects broken homes have on kids and I think that is what's wrong now a days. No one tries anymore divorce is easy. I have been married for 14 years which is unusual now a days particularly in my age group. I have worked for everything I have and do my best to provide a good home life for my family. I try hard to teach my kids what was taught to me by my grandfather. Things most young kids don't do now a days. Like changing your own oil and knowing a little bit about most things so you aren't helpless. It's the little things that I hope will give my kids a good head start in life.




Good point about no one trying anymore.  As a society we've become too soft.  If it's not fast, cheap or easy it must not be worthwhile.  I blame technology in large part for this.  Technology is causing us to lose our humanity.

I'm glad that a lot of people have contributed such thoughtful ideas on raising children in life in general.  I apologize for my tendency to harp on certain things but frequently I see things which I find so objectionable that I just have to say WTF? and cannot let go.

I'm still relatively new at being a parent and I guess some day I'll come to terms with the facts that I cannot protect my children from the world and that they are ultimately going to be what they'll be rather than my idealized version of them.  I don't imagine that it's going to be easy at all but if I don't deal with it eventually it will only prove counterproductive to their development into healthy, well adjusted, independent adults.


----------



## mass_burner (May 1, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Technology is causing us to lose our humanity.



Wow, if there's one thing that MADE us human and still sets us apart from the rest of the animal species, it technology.


----------



## Jags (May 1, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I'm still relatively new at being a parent and I guess some day I'll come to terms with the facts that I cannot protect my children from the world and that they are ultimately going to be what they'll be rather than my idealized version of them.



Whoa - I think that was a giant growing moment right there. This is not intended to be a snarky comment, and is heart felt.


----------



## Lake Girl (May 1, 2014)

Badfish740 said:


> AP-stop lusting after LakeGirl's man!
> 
> 
> 
> I have to chime in here too-looks like LakeGirl lives in rural Ontario.  Biiiiiiiig difference in cost of living, job opportunities, available social services, etc...between there and the states, especially metro areas of the Northeast where many of us live.  It's a Catch 22-where I live, if you want a home of your own and a child or two, you need a total household income of $90-100K because of housing costs, taxes, commuting costs, taxes, daycare costs, and oh yeah, more taxes.



Hey, he's mine (Edit - caught the mess up but just playing...)

We lived in the Toronto and Niagara Region for a while ... not for us.  I left a well paying job in the 90s ($32,000/year) to stay home with our children (we planned on four and had a surprise twin set!).  Our income at that time was less than my FIL's pension from the Ontario Provincial Police.  My comment was specific to the lament of others having influence over morals and values of your children ... if it is that big of a concern, make some tough choices like we did.

Housing may be cheaper but other factors are significant to cost of living - groceries, gas, heating fuel, electric, internet, clothes, household items are more expensive than in the US plus 13% sales tax.  Social services   There was one daycare in the whole district when kids were little!  Two now.  Maternity leave is better but the change to 1 year parental leave was after I left work.   Property taxes are cheaper where we live but also have 0 municipal services - no water, sewer, mass transit, or garbage service.  Unlike many of our peers, we have one house at the lake - the norm is a house in town and cabin at the lake.  We have an hour commute to work and took a lot of ribbing for having a "matchbox" car but it saved a lot on gas.  CN rail was a large employer at one time - not so much for many years.  The paper mill has been in decline for the last 10 years and is now mothballed.  The OSB mill is the only "industry" left at this point.  There is hope for a gold mine in 2 years but no guarantee that they won't just sit on it depending on gold prices.  Tourism is suffering due to harsh economies in the US and Canada.  And the new Ontario budget calls for increased taxes.... 

As to social medicine, I won't be bankrupt but I've been waiting 5 years to get a surgery to remove overactive parathyroids - I had to quit work again (muscle & bone pain, headaches, fatigue) and should have had surgery by recognized guidelines but didn't get it - GP now trying to go straight to a surgeon.  I want some semblance of my life back...


----------



## Ncountry (May 1, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I'm still relatively new at being a parent and I guess some day I'll come to terms with the facts that I cannot protect my children from the world and that they are ultimately going to be what they'll be rather than my idealized version of them.  I don't imagine that it's going to be easy at all but if I don't deal with it eventually it will only prove counterproductive to their development into healthy, well adjusted, independent adults.



This is my biggest struggle as well, esp. with a 10 year old girl...If I have one failing as a father, it is probably being too easy on her... She is a softy like me. Only thing is, I am a 240# bear that only my friends know is a softy ..lol


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 1, 2014)

Longevity in marriage is a tricky one. When looking for a spouse my criteria was simple. If i ever found someone i couldnt live without id marry her. Didnt really think it would happen. At the ripe old age of 38 It did,and it lasted 20 years so far,so good.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 1, 2014)

Drug use is down, teen pregnancy is down, dropouts, violence and murder are way down...


All of this "kids/families these days" talk rings a little hollow to me.


----------



## Badfish740 (May 1, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Drug use is down, teen pregnancy is down, dropouts, violence and murder are way down...



That's true, but paranoia, internet hysteria, and helicopter parenting are at an all time high.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

Jags said:


> Whoa - I think that was a giant growing moment right there. This is not intended to be a snarky comment, and is heart felt.




I think it's something all parents that take the time to reflect upon realize in an intellectual sense from early on.  The problem is reconciling our innate emotional instinct to protect our children with the fact that sheltering them from the world is in effect preventing them from fully experiencing life.  At the moment my children are still dependent upon my wife and I for almost everything.  I'm hoping that with time as they become more independent and capable of dealing with life head on it becomes a much easier task.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 1, 2014)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Drug use is down, teen pregnancy is down, dropouts, violence and murder are way down...
> 
> 
> All of this "kids/families these days" talk rings a little hollow to me.




Down since when?  One thing that is definitely up is sensationalist news in your face 24-7.  Even if violence and murder are down the news coverage of it is up when given the fact that we have 24-7 news channels and internet news sites.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 1, 2014)

"According to data released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the United States is becoming safer nearly every year. In the 20 years through 2012, the U.S. violent crime rate has been almost cut in half. Just since 2007, the nation’s violent crime rate has declined from 471.8 to 386.9 incidents per 100,000 people."


----------



## Ashful (May 1, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> "According to data released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the United States is becoming safer nearly every year. In the 20 years through 2012, the U.S. violent crime rate has been almost cut in half. Just since 2007, the nation’s violent crime rate has declined from 471.8 to 386.9 incidents per 100,000 people."


... even the criminals are getting lazy.


----------



## Grisu (May 1, 2014)

Joful said:


> ... even the criminals are getting lazy.



They have only discovered that working in a bank is more lucrative than robbing it and does not land you in jail.


----------



## fossil (May 1, 2014)

Dana B said:


> One thing that is definitely up is sensationalist news in your face 24-7



Only if you put your face in the way.


----------



## yooperdave (May 2, 2014)

fossil said:


> Only if you put your face in the way.




You nailed that one, Rick!   99 keeps telling me  "Look at this feature on the remote-it can mute the sound; change the channel; and even turn the tv off!"  She wins again!


----------



## woodgeek (May 2, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Down since when?  One thing that is definitely up is sensationalist news in your face 24-7.  Even if violence and murder are down the news coverage of it is up when given the fact that we have 24-7 news channels and internet news sites.



What is this 'news' of which you speak??


----------



## Badfish740 (May 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> What is this 'news' of which you speak??



For me its an hour of NPR in the morning, an hour of NPR in the afternoon (in the car), and seeing what the local weather guesser has to say between 5:30 and 6:00 a.m.  I can't say that know what Justin Bieber is up to at any given moment, or that I know the "shocking truth about ________ that ________ doesn't want you to know," but I have a fairly decent grasp of what's going in the world.


----------



## mass_burner (May 2, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> "According to data released by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the United States is becoming safer nearly every year. In the 20 years through 2012, the U.S. violent crime rate has been almost cut in half. Just since 2007, the nation’s violent crime rate has declined from 471.8 to 386.9 incidents per 100,000 people."



Yes, and check the stats for white collar crime, fraud, insider trading, uh, don't know what you call it...breaking the world's banking system. These are at an all-time high (and at the same time people in prison for these crimes is still very low).


----------



## bobdog2o02 (May 2, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Maybe it's just me but it seems like our society becomes exponentially more shallow, materialistic, and immoral with the passing of each year.  The cost of living for the middle class has increased more rapidly than salaries have.  As the father of two young children I am trying my best to lead a frugal and practical lifestyle for my children.  It's important for me that they grow up knowing that there are things far more important in life than video games, TV shows and shiny material possessions.
> 
> I'm interested in what others may be doing to save money, live a frugal and/or practical lifestyle and raise healthy well rounded children as well as what you think of our current day American society in general.




I can honestly say i just read all _*5*_ pages of this thread and found only two people actually answered the OP's question.  I have enjoyed the banter and philosophy though.  To answer the question i give some background on myself.  I am 30 years old.  My Mom and Dad were 17/21 respectively when i was born.  My father is a bipolar drunk that could not hold a job for more than a year before quitting because he "could do his boss's job better".  For the past 20yrs my dad has been self employed in the trades, i have learned all that he does because i worked summers and evenings sometimes with him.  SKILLS will save your but when TSHTF.  Mom is the most patient person i know.  All the love i grew up with came from her, after i was born she was left supporting the broken needs of my father and the needs of an infant, all with a high school diploma.  She has never made more than $12/hour.  We got through a lot of tough years with help from the grandparents, I also saw two people making TERRIBLE decisions financially.  Living beyond their means.  I moved out in 2007, my mom left dad 3 months later.   

My life has been AWESOME, i went to a great public school system, learned lots of trades during my upbringing; finish carpentry, framing, flooring, roofing, painting, electrical, plumbing, some hvac.....  If it has to do with houses i can do it.  I went to a two years trade school, Thaddeus Stevens College of Technology in Lancaster PA.  I started a career in Electronic security.  I currently work for the industry leader in Fire Protection making a good living 42K.  My wife has been my best friend since i met her at age 18 in 2002.  Got married in 2010.  She is an accountant and makes exactly the same $ as me.  We bought our first house in the summer of 2011.  $155K We were approved for up to $300K RIDICULOUS.

My advice to the OP.

1. Cook at home, eating out is very expensive.  My parents only cooked one meal per week at home.  When first dating my wife a lot of our time together was in the kitchen. cooking eating, and cleaning up TOGETHER.  Builds great trust and bonds the more time you spend doing things together.

2.  Use any skills you have and learn any you can that can save $ at home.  The only thing i pay someone else to do around my house is charge the A/C since the refrigerant is a regulated chemical, otherwise i'd buy the tools and do that too.

3. We make our own soaps, laundry detergent, handsoap etc.....  I can make 5 gallons of HE detergent for $4,    i can share the formula if you want

4.  Plant a garden,  we can stuff from the back yard.  canning is awesome since you dont have to pay for electric to keep it like freezing, also will last through a summer power outtage,,,,,,,,,

5.  Most important, make reasonable decisions with your money.  Our 155K house is affordable under my or my wife's salary alone.  This exeptionally important now since my wife lost her job last week.  But since we "live cheap" we dont need to worry.  

I hope this wasnt too much of a rant but i feel proud to have had the upbringing i did.  I learned first hand the folly of irresponsible decisions.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 2, 2014)

fossil said:


> Only if you put your face in the way.




Yes but you're exposed to it in other ways too.  People talking it around the water cooler in the office, at the Little League game, on Facebook, in the waiting room at the doctor's office etc etc.  My point was that although there may have been more violent crime years ago you were generally less likely to learn about it and when you did learn about it wasn't harped on ad nauseam the way it is today.  I think that's what's part of driving the idea that the world is a more dangerous place today.  But then I am a news junkie myself and could be wrong about it.


----------



## woodgeek (May 2, 2014)

I agree that the news media creates a climate of fear, but that has IMO been true since at least the 70s.  As a kid then, the public elementary school had an evening event where they brought in all the kids and parents and showed them a little 'true story' movie about some kids that had been abducted off the street and killed.  It was quite graphic and everyone left stunned and terrified.  Nice.

Parents kept a close eye on me after that....for about 2 weeks.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 2, 2014)

bobdog2o02 said:


> I can honestly say i just read all _*5*_ pages of this thread and found only two people actually answered the OP's question.  I have enjoyed the banter and philosophy though.  To answer the question i give some background on myself.  I am 30 years old.  My Mom and Dad were 17/21 respectively when i was born.  My father is a bipolar drunk that could not hold a job for more than a year before quitting because he "could do his boss's job better".  For the past 20yrs my dad has been self employed in the trades, i have learned all that he does because i worked summers and evenings sometimes with him.  SKILLS will save your but when TSHTF.  Mom is the most patient person i know.  All the love i grew up with came from her, after i was born she was left supporting the broken needs of my father and the needs of an infant, all with a high school diploma.  She has never made more than $12/hour.  We got through a lot of tough years with help from the grandparents, I also saw two people making TERRIBLE decisions financially.  Living beyond their means.  I moved out in 2007, my mom left dad 3 months later.
> 
> My life has been AWESOME, i went to a great public school system, learned lots of trades during my upbringing; finish carpentry, framing, flooring, roofing, painting, electrical, plumbing, some hvac.....  If it has to do with houses i can do it.  I went to a two years trade school, Thaddeus Stevens College of Technology in Lancaster PA.  I started a career in Electronic security.  I currently work for the industry leader in Fire Protection making a good living 42K.  My wife has been my best friend since i met her at age 18 in 2002.  Got married in 2010.  She is an accountant and makes exactly the same $ as me.  We bought our first house in the summer of 2011.  $155K We were approved for up to $300K RIDICULOUS.
> 
> ...




Funny that you mentioned getting approved for a 300K mortgage and only spending 155K.  I remember when we bought our home that the amount we were approved for was ridiculous based on our income at the time.  We only ended spending about 50-60% of the amount we'd been approved for.  The bank doesn't give a damn how the size of your monthly payment affects the quality of sleep you get each night.

I already do a lot of the other things that you suggested.   We eat a few times a year at restaurants we know we'll enjoy.  I find that most restaurants offer crap food and charge you an arm and a leg for it.  Eating at home has gotten to be a little expensive because we buy organic and non GMO foods.  ("Im hyper paranoid about the chemicals used in the mainstream food production int his country but that's another thread for another day)  We will be staring our own vegetable garden either this year or next.  We make our own laundry detergent, do as much of the carpentry/paingting/plumbing/electrical etc etc as we're capable of around the house.  We try to minimize our energy and electricity costs, pay the car insurance in one lump some to get discounts,   call the credit card companies every 4 months or so to bug them to lower our rates even though we've managed to not have a monthly balance on them for a few years running now, shop at Goodwill/thrift shops for clothing,  look on Craigslist for items that we are OK with buying used, keep the children's birthday parties simple and cheap but at the same time fun for them,  don't buy bottled water anymore but had our well water tested for peace of mind etc etc

You mentioned making smart decisions with money and that goes without saying although I find the justifications that some people offer regarding some of the money decisions they make downright bizarre.

I think another very important thing to do is always be asking yourself is this a want or a need.  There is a huge amount of psychological research that goes into marketing and sales.  I've read about some of it and it's both interesting and disturbing.  It's led me to those business and people who would be in a position to market or sell something to me as the enemy.  I understand that there are very good and worthwhile products out there but I tend to go into every situation with the thought that someone's out to screw me and only change my mind when the evidence to the contrary has become overwhelming.  My wife claims I'm unneccesarily rude to car salesman but I think they've earned it, "oh let me go talk to my finance manager to see what i can do for you,"  BS!  You know what you can sell this car for and if you're gone longer than three minutes I won't still be sitting in this chair when you get back.


----------



## begreen (May 2, 2014)

News has become *much more* sensationalized entertainment based and is very often full of inaccuracies. It has also been corporatized to the point where one rarely gets both sides of a story. Coverage of important issues is thin or entirely lacking. The mainstream media completely failed us with the selling of the Iraq War.  I stopped watching tv news about 10 yrs ago with the exception of Fri night PBS newshour on occasion. Regular broadcast news is terrible and cable news is usually worse.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I agree that the news creates a climate of fear, but that has IMO been true since at least the 70s.  As a kid then, the public school had an evening event where they brought in all the kids and parents and showed them a little movie about some kids that had been abducted off the street and killed.  It was quite graphic and everyone left stunned and terrified.  Nice.
> 
> Parents kept a close eye on me after that....for about 2 weeks.


 
I wasn't around for most of the 70's and they very little part I was around for was spent in diapers.  I grew up in the 80's and early 90's but I don't recall the media being so invasive in our lives.  The big thing I remember from the 1980's was watching the Space Shuttle challenger explode on live TV in 1986 when I was in the fourth grade.  Christa Mcauliffe was from NH so many of my teachers actually personally knew her.   I remember them all crying and hugging each other.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 2, 2014)

begreen said:


> News has become *much more* sensationalized entertainment based and is very often full of inaccuracies. It has also been corporatized to the point where one rarely gets both sides of a story. Coverage of important issues is thin or entirely lacking. The mainstream media completely failed us with the selling of the Iraq War.  I stopped watching tv news about 10 yrs ago with the exception of Fri night PBS newshour on occasion. Regular broadcast news is terrible and cable news is usually worse.




Yeah I enjoy reading foreign news sources as well as carefully selected domestic ones.  I also purchased an internet radio a while back and I can get news and music from all over the world while I'm doing various things throughout the house.  Trust me when I say that you don't know what surreal is until you've been listening to a Merle Haggard or Johnny Cash song on the radio and when the song ends the DJ starts speaking Chinese.


----------



## woodgeek (May 2, 2014)

I suspect your parents sheltered you from the news cycle, Dana.  My parents had 'the news' blaring on the TV at every meal, morning and evening, 7 days a week, from as early as I can remember (say 4 yo in 1972).  I saw it all and had it explained to me through my parents eyes...'what was wrong...' with 'the world' and 'those people'.  I haven't watched TV news since moving out in 1986.  I saw enough.

Where do you think 'white flight' came from in the 60s and 70s?  TV and movies.  Destroyed much of the urban culture in the US, just for ratings to sell stuff.

My wife works 25 miles outside Philly, and meets a bunch of people who haven't set foot in the city (2X the size of Boston) for 10 years or more, but they go home and watch the 11 o'clock news about it every night.


----------



## bobdog2o02 (May 2, 2014)

Woodgeek SE PA, where abouts....?  Lancaster over here.


----------



## woodgeek (May 2, 2014)

bobdog2o02 said:


> Woodgeek SE PA, where abouts....?  Lancaster over here.



Wayne.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 2, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Trust me when I say that you don't know what surreal is until you've been listening to a Merle Haggard or Johnny Cash song on the radio and when the song ends the DJ starts speaking Chinese.



Pffft. In the sixties I was in Singapore and watched Bonanza on TV one night. Imagine Hoss Cartwright with a high voice speaking in Chinese.


----------



## begreen (May 2, 2014)

Was Hop Sing speaking English?


----------



## BrotherBart (May 2, 2014)




----------



## BrotherBart (May 2, 2014)

News I see is mostly what Lindsay Lohan or Miley Cyrus are up to.


----------



## webbie (May 3, 2014)

Many of you may enjoy Quora, a place where I hang out and where the real questions of life (such as this) are answered by many who know things.

Example - if you ask "why does craig of craigslist not make billions from his creation like other internet founders?", the answer is likely to come from Craig himself (not me, of course!).

If you ask "What's Obama really like in person?", you will read multiple answers from staff who actually hung with him in the oval office.

Getting back to the OP - IMHO, it starts with a false premise, so it's difficult to answer properly.

As BB often says, "the good old days, weren't".

When we, the hippies of the 60's, rebelled....it was for the EXACT same reason that the OP mentions, that American society seemed to be a one-way street of Father Knows Best. Of course, it wasn't really like that - but it did seem for many as there was not a lot of flexibility as to the paths in life.

As others have already answered in this thread, things today are perhaps better than any time in my 60 years! I know people (not hippies!) who live every type of lifestyle, from just bumming around and writing or playing music to putting their noses to the grindstone to start businesses. The internet has made most of these things better and possibly easier (more flexibility, more communication).

I know more gay people, more stay-at-home moms AND dads, more academics, more entrepreneurs, more social workers.....and I probably know fewer folks who work in factories (that's another story, but whether most parents want their kids working on assembly lines is doubtful).

There is a subset, which may include the OP, who seem to feel that our society is trying to force feed them ideals and "how to be". I see the opposite. If someone wants to be a lazy slob today, there are more opportunities than ever. Same goes with the other side of the spectrum.

Crime is down. Social ills, such as drug and alcohol abuse and mental health, are more understood and we deal with them instead of locking them away from our sight.

So, IMHO, the thread would be easier to answer if it just contained the frugal part. That's a lesson which has stayed the same through the centuries.

Our kids turned out sane without us ever hitting them or strongly disciplining or telling them what to do. I think the social scientists are correct in that kids are formed between birth and about 3-4 years old. Be the example that you want them to follow - and they will do one of two things. They may follow it....or, they may not. If they don't, perhaps your example is wanting? We all think we know the "right way", but it can't be true that we do.

As fas as savings, that's easy. Don't borrow money for anything except perhaps a house. Don't cut things close. Work smart. Done.


----------



## blacktail (May 3, 2014)

I don't have kids but I live pretty good on my modest income. I bought my house three years ago and will have it paid off in a few more years. My mortgage is my only debt.
The biggest financial mistake I see people make is overspending on vehicles and other big ticket items like boats, motorcycles, RVs, etc. It's hard for most people to get ahead when they're paying 500, 600, 700+ dollars a month on their pickup. Of course, that pickup is needed to pull toys that are also costing several hundred a month.
It turns my stomach to think about financing 30 or 40 grand on a car that will be worth a fraction of that by the time it's paid off.
My vehicles were purchased used, with cash, and do everything I need them to.
Saving money by skipping the $4 coffee every morning helps too, but it ain't gonna make up for a rediculous monthly car payment.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

blacktail said:


> I don't have kids but I live pretty good on my modest income. I bought my house three years ago and will have it paid off in a few more years. My mortgage is my only debt.
> The biggest financial mistake I see people make is overspending on vehicles and other big ticket items like boats, motorcycles, RVs, etc. It's hard for most people to get ahead when they're paying 500, 600, 700+ dollars a month on their pickup. Of course, that pickup is needed to pull toys that are also costing several hundred a month.
> It turns my stomach to think about financing 30 or 40 grand on a car that will be worth a fraction of that by the time it's paid off.
> My vehicles were purchased used, with cash, and do everything I need them to.
> Saving money by skipping the $4 coffee every morning helps too, but it ain't gonna make up for a rediculous monthly car payment.




I can't imagine a $500 - $700 a month car payment.  Every car I've ever owned had a monthly payment of at most $250.   But then I've never felt the need to drive status symbols.


----------



## Highbeam (May 5, 2014)

blacktail said:


> Saving money by skipping the $4 coffee every morning helps too, but it ain't gonna make up for a rediculous monthly car payment.


 
This is a big one. Don't sweat the small stuff, it's those big expenditures that really make the difference.



Dana B said:


> I can't imagine a $500 - $700 a month car payment.  Every car I've ever owned had a monthly payment of at most $250.   But then I've never felt the need to drive status symbols.


 
15 years ago I was employed at my first job out of college. I had been there a few years and my high school pickup died. I decided I wanted to buy a plain half ton pickup new from a dealer. The monthly payment was well over 500 bucks per month. This was not some type of 1 ton lifted diesel dually with leather, it was a regular truck. It is not uncommon to see 70,000 dollar trucks on the lot these days with monthly payments well over 1000$. The high price is for NEW, not for function. If the newness is what makes it a status symbol then that's the price but the function is also a status symbol. Heck, even an old beater is a symbol of your status as a frugal buyer.

Oh and I didn't buy the new truck, my current truck was a "status symbol" when it was new and some fool lost lots of money when I bought it 7 years ago for 20% of what a current new model would cost.


----------



## begreen (May 5, 2014)

I brought my lunch to work and never bought coffee. Little things add up. A $4 coffee every work day = $80/month, add to that buying lunch every day for ~$6 and you have a $200/month ($2400/yr) bill. These days there are lots of things like this that nibble at one's wallet. Netflix, Comcast, A&TT, Verizon, etc. all have programs that are just $4/day. Don't pay attention to them and at the end of the month it's "Where'd the money go??".

PS: My pickup truck is officially 20 yrs old this month.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> This is a big one. Don't sweat the small stuff, it's those big expenditures that really make the difference.



"Don't sweat the petty stuff. And don't pet the sweaty stuff."

 - George Carlin


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> Oh and I didn't buy the new truck, my current truck was a "status symbol" when it was new and some fool lost lots of money when I bought it 7 years ago for 20% of what a current new model would cost.


My daily driver work truck a 20 year old GM K2500 Silverado. It would cost about $40000 to replace it with a new one. Paid 9K for it 12 years ago,and still worth 5 K . Truck still looks great and runs great with 175K miles on it. A testament to GM truck durability.  Very minimal upkeep cost .$333 a year in depreciation,ill take it.  
I can afford a new one,but for the life of me cant justify it as this one does everything it needs to superbly. Plus id baby a new one too much so i dont get a scratch on it. If i ever replace it ill buy another one just like it about 10 years newer.  Even insurance at $220 a year would jump way, way up if i were to buy new. No thanks.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> This is a big one. Don't sweat the small stuff, it's those big expenditures that really make the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Pickup trucks sure are handy when you need them for picking stuff up but most people don't need them for their daily lives.   I've never been a "car guy" either.  I know some guys that will spend thousands of dollars on performance parts, paint, racing tires etc etc  I just look at a vehicle as a means to get from point A to B.  My only requirements are that it be reliable, safe and handle well in the snow.  I drive a 11 year old Subaru that just went over 200K and people are always asking me why I don't get a new car.  It runs fine and I'm not making monthly payments on it.  My wife has a take on some of the car guys though.   Sometimes we'll be driving and a jacked up pickup truck all done out will  pull up beside us or a Mercedes with some guy looking around to see who's looking at him and she'll say "now there's a guy with a small $#@!


----------



## Grisu (May 5, 2014)

I am wondering whether cafeteria, GM and any other workers were and are also so enamored by all the frugality reported here. Unspent money means lost income for someone else. Does reducing someone elses pay really make us all better off?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> I brought my lunch to work and never bought coffee. Little things add up. A $4 coffee every work day = $80/month, add to that buying lunch every day for ~$6 and you have a $200/month ($2400/yr) bill. These days there are lots of things like this that nibble at one's wallet. Netflix, Comcast, A&TT all have programs that are just $4/day. Don't pay attention to them and at the end of the month it's "Where'd the money go??".
> PS: My pickup truck is officially 20 yrs old this month.


BG i think were on the same page here. 20 yr old truck & no coffee/lunch bill. Im betting your net worth is more than a lot of people you know who make much higher incomes. Another tip id give is,i never carry my whole paycheck around in my wallet. Iv noticed the people who do,tend to spend it all before the next one arrive. Just a few $ at a time. I love the spenders though, as i make a living,as do many others from their financially challenged lifestyles.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> I am wondering whether cafeteria, GM and any other workers were and are also so enamored by all the frugality reported here. Unspent money means lost income for someone else. Does reducing someone elses pay really make us all better off?


It would be a bad idea to spend foolishly just to increase someones pay. Were all better off when most of us are not falling into bankrupcy. If people become better financial managers then my pay will be greatly reduced. I sell (and finance with my own money) homes to people who have much higher incomes than i do. If you can imagine how that is even possible , iv been at it for 26 years.


----------



## Grisu (May 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> It would be a bad idea to spend foolishly just to increase someones pay. Were all better off when most of us are not falling into bankrupcy.



And why do people fall into bankruptcy? Maybe because their income was unexpectedly reduced?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> And why do people fall into bankruptcy? Maybe because their income was unexpectedly reduced?


Or they have no emergency fund ,overspend on a regular basis, or buy more home,car, toys than they can afford. Of course there are people who fall into bankruptcy thru no fault of their own,there always will be but much of the time there is poor planning behind it,or a divorce. Not too many people who live on fraction of their income,and invest and are diversified will find themselves in bankruptcy. My BIL makes a regular middle class income all his life but lives a modest but comfortable lifestyle and has over $1 million invested in stocks and securities. If his company shut down tomorrow it would be no problem. Many of his friends he works with are always broke and 1 paycheck from the street and bankruptcy.But they do have a new truck every year.


----------



## Highbeam (May 5, 2014)

I have never known anyone who went bankrupt due to no fault of their own. Certainly they are out there but this thread is about those who can not only manage to live within their means but also those who do it so well that they can pass on their skills.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> I am wondering whether cafeteria, GM and any other workers were and are also so enamored by all the frugality reported here. Unspent money means lost income for someone else. Does reducing someone elses pay really make us all better off?




Are you serious?


----------



## Grisu (May 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Or they have no emergency fund ,overspend on a regular basis, or buy more home,car, toys than they can afford. Of course there are people who fall into bankruptcy thru no fault of their own,there always will be but much of the time there is poor planning behind it,or a divorce.



Of course there are people who are just plain stupid. When your basic monthly expenses exceed your income you have problem.And for the rest we (the banks) should have risk-buffers that compensate for that. It sounds like you will need that too in your line of business. 



> Not too many people who live on fraction of their income,and invest and are diversified will find themselves in bankruptcy.



"Fraction of their income" means they spend less than they earn. Little math here: Take an island with 100 people, everyone has an income of $10, for a total of $1000. Now they all decide to save $1 and spend only $9. Everyone's income drops to $9, for $900 total and $100 in "savings". Does that island economy do better now? 



> My BIL makes a regular middle class income all his life but lives a modest but comfortable lifestyle and has over $1 million invested in stocks and securities.



What are those stocks and securities other than the liabilities (= debt) of someone else? And could he saved as much when other people would not have given him that as income beforehand?


----------



## Grisu (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Are you serious?



Very much, because I fall not for the fallacy of composition. If one individual is better off it does not mean that all are better off. In fact, one individual could just be better off because someone else is worse off. Tell me how your income would be if your companie's customers would stop spending money?


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I have never known anyone who went bankrupt due to no fault of their own. Certainly they are out there but this thread is about those who can not only manage to live within their means but also those who do it so well that they can pass on their skills.




I could be wrong but I remember hearing something about the majority of bankruptcies being due to catastrophic illness.  Now whether or not this was because the person loses income due to being ill or the medical bills I don't know.  I'd surmise that it's a combination of the two.  I'd have plenty of sympathy for someone who was living within their means their entire life and then went bankrupt because they got cancer but none for the guy who went bankrupt because the $5000 mortgage payment on his 5500 square foot home just couldn't be met for whatever reason.


----------



## Grisu (May 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I have never known anyone who went bankrupt due to no fault of their own. Certainly they are out there but this thread is about those who can not only manage to live within their means but also those who do it so well that they can pass on their skills.



So it's people's fault if they get sick and can't pay the bill? Medical bills, the No 1 cause of US bankruptcies: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> Very much, because I fall not for the fallacy of composition. If one individual is better off it does not mean that all are better off. In fact, one individual could just be better off because someone else is worse off. Tell me how your income would be if your companie's customers would stop spending money?




That would be my problem and not my company's customers' problem.  My life is my responsibility and no one else's and my family's finances are directed at seeing to it that my family has a happy and secure life rather than propping up the economy at large.  Forgive me but I find your logic and many of the statements you make downright bizarre.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Stocks and securities are part ownership in companies. Not necessarily anyones debt ,but your assets. The US economy is light years more complicated than 100 people on an island or even a million. Factor in trade with other countries and all bets are off. There will always be winners and losers. The question is will YOU be a winner or a loser. THe losers and poor planners are not only losing money but something much more valuable,their time.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> So it's people's fault if they get sick and can't pay the bill? Medical bills, the No 1 cause of US bankruptcies: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148


Sometimes it is, aka smoking ,obesity,drug and alcohol addiction ect.


----------



## Grisu (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> ... but none for the guy who went bankrupt because the $5000 mortgage payment on his 5500 square foot home just couldn't be met for whatever reason.



I have no sympathy for a guy who thinks he needs to live in a huge mansion in order to assert his social status. No one can tell me someone really needs that much of a living space (with maybe a few exceptions I have a hard time coming up with). Such houses are just a huge waste of resources. Nevertheless, the inability to not pay the $5000 is due to lack of income all else being equal. Thus, solely a monetary phenomenon and based on the decisions to be "frugal" by others.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> I have no sympathy for a guy who thinks he needs to live in a huge mansion in order to assert his social status. No one can tell me someone really needs that much of a living space (with maybe a few exceptions I have a hard time coming up with). Such houses are just a huge waste of resources. Nevertheless, the inability to not pay the $5000 is due to lack of income all else being equal. Thus, solely a monetary phenomenon and based on the decisions to be "frugal" by others.



Wow that's some severely twisted logic.  When someone goes bankrupt because they can no longer afford their mortgage it is not in any way their fault but rather the fault of others who've stopped spending their own money?

Why do I get the sneaking suspicion that you not only would have no sympathy for the guy who lives in a huge mansion but that you also don't think he should have the right to live in a huge mansion which he bought with his own money?


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Much of the market and housing crash was due to market speculation,people borrowing way more money than they could hope to pay back or afford to,people using their homes like ATM machines .flipping houses with no added value.
And business had just as much greed and poor planning and fault allowing liar loans and no equity loans just to reap the commisions and selling junk bonds on those same transactions to the whole world. A giant example of  irresponsibility.
And yes a lot of innocents  lost  their jobs as well and lost their homes thru no fault of their own.
But millions of careful planners did NOT lose everything. And came back to buy into a discounted market at bargain prices. Im in real estate and i didnt make make anything from the crash but i didnt lose anything either.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Another sticky subject is if and how much do you bail out people and business that go broke when it is entirely their own fault. Or is it better to let the market weed out the winners and losers.


----------



## Highbeam (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> So it's people's fault if they get sick and can't pay the bill? Medical bills, the No 1 cause of US bankruptcies: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148


 
I propose that the medical bill was just the straw that broke the camel's back. The people that are unable to pay that bill are already in trouble with others.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I propose that the medical bill was just the straw that broke the camel's back. The people that are unable to pay that bill are already in trouble with others.




I don't know that that's true.   If you were to get some such disease as cancer where the treatment was needed on a consistent basis I think you'd find the medical bills would add up pretty quickly.

Medical Bankruptcies

The link shows that most medical bankruptcies involve people who actually have health insurance.  I'm a fairly libertarian do for yourself kind of guy but I find it disturbing that people go bankrupt in this nation because of illness.


----------



## Badfish740 (May 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I propose that the medical bill was just the straw that broke the camel's back. The people that are unable to pay that bill are already in trouble with others.



Sometimes, but if you have no insurance/bad insurance and have a bad accident/serious illness it's not hard to rack up tens or even hundreds of thousands in medical bills.  If I owed a hospital $200K I could fork over all of my savings, not pay any other bills (including the mortgage) and still wouldn't be able to pay that off.


----------



## begreen (May 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I love the spenders though, as i make a living,as do many others from their financially challenged lifestyles.


A few decades back I built two boats for millionaires. Each cost way more than our house. Both sold them within 5 yrs. of them being built.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 5, 2014)

The way anybody but me spends their money is insane.


----------



## fossil (May 5, 2014)

The way anybody but me spends their money is none of my concern.


----------



## Jags (May 5, 2014)

I just want to spend other peoples money.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> The link shows that most medical bankruptcies involve people who actually have health insurance.  I'm a fairly libertarian do for yourself kind of guy but I find it disturbing that people go bankrupt in this nation because of illness.


The ACA  is meant to fix that in a big way. One of the many good things it does. As many americans are in agreement that medical bills should not drive you to bankruptcy whether you have insurance or not.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 5, 2014)

Stuff like what is in this thread is just another manifestation of the ingrained need of humans to feel that no matter how crapped their life is, they are somehow better than somebody out there.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Jags said:


> I just want to spend other peoples money.


But you must pay them for the privelege(interest)unless you are a politician then the folks pay you to spend their money.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> The ACA  is meant to fix that in a big way. One of the many good things it does. As many americans are in agreement that medical bills should not drive you to bankruptcy whether you have insurance or not.




No it doesn't.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Stuff like what is in this thread is just another manifestation of the ingrained need of humans to feel that no matter how crapped their life is, they are somehow better than somebody out there.


THere is always someone worse off than us,in more ways than just financially.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Stuff like what is in this thread is just another manifestation of the ingrained need of humans to feel that no matter how crapped their life is, they are somehow better than somebody out there.




I don't think my life is crappy.  I just think there are too many dishonest and lazy people in the world and far too many that would jump at the chance to screw over others for their own benefit.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> No it doesn't.


OK, ill agree to disagree on that one.


----------



## Grisu (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I don't think my life is crappy.  I just think there are too many dishonest and lazy people in the world and far too many that would jump at the chance to screw over others if it benefited them.



I am sure that sentiment is shared by 100% of the population.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I don't think my life is crappy.  I just think there are too many dishonest and lazy people in the world and far too many that would jump at the chance to screw over others for their own benefit.


Always were,always will be.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I just think there are too many dishonest and lazy people in the world...



I think there are too many people looking down on other people. With absolutely no knowledge whatsoever what their circumstances are.


----------



## Highbeam (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> I don't think my life is crappy.  I just think there are too many dishonest and lazy people in the world and far too many that would jump at the chance to screw over others for their own benefit.


 
That describes the majority. If the phone rings and I don't know who it is, I can bet that somebody wants to take something from me.


----------



## begreen (May 5, 2014)

Majority? What that doesn't acknowledge is that most people are honest, hardworking and decent folks.


BrotherBart said:


> I think there are too many people looking down on other people. With absolutely no knowledge whatsoever what their circumstances are.


Very true.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

Grisu said:


> I am sure that sentiment is shared by 100% of the population.



Yeah I guess when someone's a scumbag they generally don't think of themself as a scumbag despite the fact that they're ascumbag.


----------



## Highbeam (May 5, 2014)

Dana B said:


> If you were to get some such disease as cancer where the treatment was needed on a consistent basis I think you'd find the medical bills would add up pretty quickly.


 
I'm sure you are right but I think you will find that this is not the case with many medical bankruptcies. You will find folks that were on the ragged edge of getting by that were kicked with a 1000$ bill to fix a corn on their foot and now they can't afford beer so are bankrupt. There will always be those who abuse the bankruptcy system and also those who really deserve to use it.


----------



## DBNH22 (May 5, 2014)

begreen said:


> What that doesn't acknowledge is that most people are honest, hardworking and decent folks.




Most people?  If you had to nail it down what percentage would you say are decent, honest people?   There's 320 million people in this country.  So let's say 70% of them are decent and honest.  That still leaves almost 10 million that are less than decent and honest and all it takes is one of them to f with your life.


----------



## BrotherBart (May 5, 2014)

OK. Let save the rest of this enlightenment for soapbox.com and get back to wood burning.


----------



## begreen (May 5, 2014)

I've been on this planet for over 6 decades and have been around the globe. Most people I run into are decent folks. They may have a different POV or status, but they are still good folk. It only takes one bad apple to spoil a barrel-full, but that doesn't change the equation.


----------

