# Need some help with a science project!!!



## Wallace (Dec 13, 2011)

My 8 year old daughter has decided she would like to do her science project on different types of wood and their heating properties!  Her idea!! She is way to smart for her age!  So I have access to 4 different kinds of wood that grow in our region.  Oak, Ponderosa pine, Alligator juniper and Shaggy bark juniper.  We are really needing some ideas and parameters for her experiment.


----------



## Chettt (Dec 13, 2011)

In addition to burn times & temperature, she could weigh the pieces freshly cut then again after 4 weeks, measure the tree rings, do a hardness test on each etc.


----------



## BrotherBart (Dec 13, 2011)

Send a PM to forum member Battenkiller. He will give you enough experiments to do with wood that your eyes will be rolling back in your head.  :lol:


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Dec 13, 2011)

Drying times for the different woods would also be interesting because oak will take much longer than the others. This brings up the creosote thing as burning green wood will cause lots of creosote which can cause bad chimney fires, which can cause loss of home, etc., etc.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Dec 13, 2011)

SCIENCE PROJECT - all the below requires adult supervision, and probably adult participation and guidance.

NULL HYPOTHESIS: The heat obtained from burning wood is indirectly proportional to its density (read: softer wood species produces more heat than harder wood).

METHODOLOGY:
1.  Cut 3 identical size pieces (Ex: 1/2"x1"x4") of each of your available 4 species (green).
2.  Label the 3 pieces of each green species.
3.  Accurately weigh and record each green species as a group of 3 pieces.
4.  Thoroughly dry all pieces together in a 250*F oven for 6 hours.
5.  Cool and re-weigh each group of 3.  
6.  Record the dry weights.  The heaviest is the most dense and so on to the lightest.
7.  Perforate the sides of an empty and clean 28 oz tomato (or other) can.  This can will be the burn container. 
8.  Obtain another can to contain a measured amount of cold water at the same temperature (Ex: 2 cups).
9.  Obtain or construct a non-flammable stand that the perforated can will fit under and which will also hold
the water can above.
10. Ignite each of the 4 species, as a group of 3 pieces arranged in a teepee, of dry wood inside the perforated 
can using 1 T. of liquid lighter fuel with the other can containing 2 cups of measured cold water above.
11. Allow each fire to burn to completion.
12. Take the temperature of the water after the fire flames are out and only coals are visible for 10 minutes for each wood species.
13. Record the results.

COMPARE RESULTS to prove or disprove your null hypothesis.  If your results show that burning harder wood produces 
more heat than burning softer wood, you have shown your null hypothesis is incorrect by using the scientific method (modified).

If the water boils in any burn group, increase the amount of water equally for each group.

Aye,
Marty
Grandma used to say, "Work smarter, not harder."


----------



## BrotherBart (Dec 13, 2011)

Eight years old Marty. Eight.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Dec 13, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Eight years old Marty. Eight.



"Way smart for her age", Bart, "Way smart for her age" and "requires adult supervision".

Aye,
Marty


----------



## SpeakEasy (Dec 13, 2011)

I'm a former elementary teacher, and I'd love to help your daughter out. I am currently a professor of education, and I spend my days teaching people how to teach other people's children. I surely hope the teacher provided some guidance on this "science project." If you can give me some of the guidance provided by the teacher, I can give you some ideas to follow up with.

-Speak


----------



## DanCorcoran (Dec 14, 2011)

How do you tell the difference between an 8 year-old girl's science project and the collaborative science project of a bunch of old guys on Hearth.com?


----------



## SpeakEasy (Dec 14, 2011)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> How do you tell the difference between an 8 year-old girl's science project and the collaborative science project of a bunch of old guys on Hearth.com?



Dan, that's why I didn't just jump in with both feet.

-Speak


----------



## cptoneleg (Dec 14, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Send a PM to forum member Battenkiller. He will give you enough experiments to do with wood that your eyes will be rolling back in your head.  :lol:




  Yes and maybe an 8 year old can figure out what he is talking about I surs cnnot. :lol:


----------



## firecracker_77 (Dec 14, 2011)

What a cool subject for a science fair project.  Keep us posted as to what she does.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Dec 14, 2011)

GuyZ:

Please realize this original post is the brain child of a young girl, to do a "science project on different types of wood 
and their heating properties".

I have 4 children.  I've had lots of schoolin' and I know a bit about science and "projects".  I made a suggestion,
the only one so far.

Either contribute by coming up with an alternative suggestion you think is better,
rather than taking pot shots at my suggestion, or else go about your business
somewhere else.

Really.

Aye,
Marty


----------



## cptoneleg (Dec 14, 2011)

Marty S said:
			
		

> GuyZ:
> 
> Please realize this original post is the brain child of a young girl, to do a "science project on different types of wood
> and their heating properties".
> ...





   What are you talking about???


----------



## Hogwildz (Dec 14, 2011)

How about if she builds a Masonry heater, then on 4 separate occasions(one for each species), burns 4 splits of same size(on all loads), and records the temps at specific intervals from start to finish of each burn of each species.
Oh yeah, don't forget to throw a few fancy words in there also, to help you look and feel even smarter.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Dec 14, 2011)

Lips are moving.
I hear nothing.

Aye,
Marty


----------



## DanCorcoran (Dec 14, 2011)

Marty S said:
			
		

> Lips are moving.
> I hear nothing.
> 
> Aye,
> Marty



I don't think anyone was criticizing your ideas.  I think the question is, why are trying to do her project for her?


----------



## rwhite (Dec 14, 2011)

1. is she going to compare a given volume of wood or will it be based on weight? I would stick to volume as it is easier to measure displacement without worry of water weight throwing off the project.

2. Generally in Prescott those species can be found in relatively close proximity (don't have to worry about different climatic zones) to each other so you could cut green and weigh then oven dry and weigh to determine moisture content. If it were me I'd stick as close to the 5000 ft elevation level as that is the most common regime that all these species are likely to occur. I know that cutting green wood is illegal in AZ but I would stick to pieces 3-4" in diameter. If it concerns you cutting it, go down to the FS office and they will give you a free permit to harvest a few pieces for this.

3. I would oven dry at 150-200 degrees for a set amount of time (maybe 4 hours at 150? just guessing on this one). Weigh the wood again and determine the moisture content removed. 

4. All these steps to now are just for her to explain the scientific process and set a hypothesis plus it will make her sound smart and dry the wood out for the experiment.

5. I would then get a controlled situation like a cast iron pot in the garage or somewhere out of the wind. Get an IR thermogun and set them on fire one at a time measuring how long they burn and the temp they burn at. You could record temps at 1 minute intervals. I would do all this with a 3-4 " diameter piece maybe 1-2" long (just a small wafer) to make ignition easier and the project run quicker.



Just a thought


----------



## Martin Strand III (Dec 14, 2011)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"We are really needing some ideas and parameters for her experiment."


----------



## Wood Duck (Dec 14, 2011)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> How do you tell the difference between an 8 year-old girl's science project and the collaborative science project of a bunch of old guys on Hearth.com?



Easy - the little girl actually conducts some experiments. The old guys just talk it to death.

This has to be very simple. She might try to determine how long and hot the stove burns with a full load of each type of wood. She could load up the stove full of wood #1, light the wood and record the stove top temperature every x minutes. Create a graph of heat over time. Repeat the next day with wood #2 and so on. At the end, she could compare the graphs to make a conclusion about the heating properties of the woods. If she wants to add a little more info, she could measure the density of the woods and compare that to their heat generating properties.

I wouldn't worry too much about moisture content, etc. as long as all the woods are reasonably seasoned. This is first or second grade, after all.


----------



## pen (Dec 14, 2011)

Density is a concept that is often at least described to kids at this age.  Maybe a good extension for a bright young kid and to make it a fair project would be to help her with the math a bit and find the density of 4 different species of wood.  The process and tools she uses in doing that along with the simple math as a display could make for a nice project to present.

You could leave it at that which would be more than appropriate for the age or if she really is an overachiever you could take it further and compare it to known values of the species density, actually burn stuff and share the observations, the sky and her actual interest after building something as a foundation will determine when she feels it's time to stop.

My main suggestion is to keep it fun as you help to keep her focused.  Doing one thing well and sharing that one thing well is better than doing 5 things 1/2 heartily.  

pen


----------



## Mrs. Krabappel (Dec 14, 2011)

Don't make me break out the ruler


----------



## rwhite (Dec 14, 2011)

rwhite said:
			
		

> 1. is she going to compare a given volume of wood or will it be based on weight? I would stick to volume as it is easier to measure displacement without worry of water weight throwing off the project.
> 
> 2. Generally in Prescott those species can be found in relatively close proximity (don't have to worry about different climatic zones) to each other so you could cut green and weigh then oven dry and weigh to determine moisture content. If it were me I'd stick as close to the 5000 ft elevation level as that is the most common regime that all these species are likely to occur. I know that cutting green wood is illegal in AZ but I would stick to pieces 3-4" in diameter. If it concerns you cutting it, go down to the FS office and they will give you a free permit to harvest a few pieces for this.
> 
> ...



Just to add to this: I would walk her through the steps explaining how objects placed in water displace it and what it means. Then give an appropriate level discussion on weather and climate and whay certain trees grow where they do etc. The whole point is whatever you decide to the main emphasis is to make a teaching moment out of every step and make it fun.


----------



## Mrs. Krabappel (Dec 14, 2011)

Density would be pretty easy to measure by using displacement to determine the volume.     I like it.   She can use the densities to predict the outcome, without getting into a hairy mess of variables.   

A project that is easy to replicate, documented properly, and includes the correct protocol will be more valuable than a fabulous idea that got bogged down in the details.

eta  the goal at this stage is that the kids learn how the scientific method works, how to collect and analyze data, and how to communicate those results.    The grade and/or score is based mostly on evidence of that.


----------



## gzecc (Dec 14, 2011)

something easy would be using a moisture meter on the different stages of dried woods and recording the reading.


----------



## Frogwood (Dec 14, 2011)

[quote author="gzecc" date="1323857890"]something easy would be using a moisture meter on the different stages of dried woods and recording the reading.[Yes, and explain what happens when you burn wet wood vs dry wood...kids can then visualize stacked wood piles and understand why folks cut wood and save it for later. They might even question the wood you burn in your own stove once they know the difference and what effect it has on the environment. Yes, I have an 8yr old myself. /quote]


----------



## SpeakEasy (Dec 14, 2011)

OK. I'm in. First step is for your daughter to tell you (us?) what it is that she is curious about. "What is it that you're wondering about concerning wood heat?" might be a good question to ask her.  Help her refine the question into something that can be answered using the scientific method. Help her see the difference between a question science can answer and all the rest of tqhe questions. Next step is to have her tell you what she THINKS the answer to her question will be. Help her understand that THAT is her hypothesis. (Teach her that word if necessary.) Once she gets that far, then we can help her design an experiment to try to find out what the answer to her question might be. 

-Speak


----------



## Martin Strand III (Dec 14, 2011)

~*~Kathleen~*~ said:
			
		

> Density would be pretty easy to measure by using displacement to determine the volume.     I like it.   SNIP



WHAT?  What are you teaching?
A solid piece of hickory the exact size of a piece of balsa wood will displace the same volume.
This says nothing about density.
No wonder our kids are way behind...

I'm outta here.

Aye,
Marty


----------



## Wood Duck (Dec 14, 2011)

I think density and moisture content are too boring for an eight year old. She is interested in heating properties of wood, which means burning!


----------



## Hogwildz (Dec 14, 2011)

Cya Marty, Have a nice day, Aye


----------



## Battenkiller (Dec 14, 2011)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Cya Marty, Have a nice day, Aye



Yeah, my popcorn was all gone anyway.


----------



## Grisu (Dec 14, 2011)

Marty S said:
			
		

> ~*~Kathleen~*~ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Density is mass per volume. Kathleen probably just assumed that weighing the piece of wood was a given. No need to rant so much. The problem I have with using displacement to measure volume is that most wood will float in water. You can push it under but that adds some error. 

Maybe we should let the kid decide what she wants to show before we come up with a bunch of experiments that will not address her question.


----------



## Battenkiller (Dec 14, 2011)

Wood Duck said:
			
		

> I think density and moisture content are too boring for an eight year old. She is interested in heating properties of wood, which means burning!



I saw a TV special where they showed through experiments that a small child had a conceptually grasp of density (knew which of the identically-sized balls was dense enough to dispense the reward) while chimps just never got it at any age.  I know something as simple as just determining density woulda bored the crap out of me when I was eight.  But, heck, my favorite present of all time back then was the 21-volume science encyclopedia that my maternal grandmother gave me for Christmas that year.

I see no harm with advice about methodology and parameters.  Hell, even when I was in college I got help with experiments.  I remember one particular one where I wanted to establish growth rates of E. coli in various growth media.  The bacteriology prof spent hours with me showing me how to use the equipment, some of which she hadn't used in years and had to be pulled out of the mothballs.  In the end, though, it was my idea, my analysis, my writeup.  I only had the time to make one run, so everything had to be  thought out very carefully.  Well, everything wasn't.  The problem was that the stuff grew so damn fast that I was unable to keep up with the handling of the hundreds of samples, even with the aid of a conscripted lab assistant (my wife).  But I learned more from that failure and the subsequent writeup I had to do than from any single thing I learned in class.

At eight years old, the main thing you want to do is to develop an understanding of the scientific method and hopefully keep the spark of curiosity alive.   Time to start teaching how to write the results and conclusions properly as well.  Personally, I think Marty's idea would be very interesting, but the child (or I should say the parent) likely lacks the necessary equipment to accurately measure small wood samples.  However, a cheap digital balance  that reads in 1/100 gram increments can be found on online.   Microwave drying would be a hell of a lot faster as well, keeping the young attention span from drifting.


Establishing a null hypothesis for an experiment with only a small number of samples and where no statistics are to be employed is kinda pointless to me, though.  


The stove would need to be more sophisticated, something that would burn the wood to only ash and is well insulated so that all of the heat is directed at the water above.  A simple rocket stove would meet this need, and would be a fascinating learning project for the child as well.


----------



## firefighterjake (Dec 14, 2011)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> How do you tell the difference between an 8 year-old girl's science project and the collaborative science project of a bunch of old guys on Hearth.com?



Thanks for the laugh Dan . . . I needed this today.


----------



## Battenkiller (Dec 14, 2011)

Grisu said:
			
		

> Kathleen probably just assumed that weighing the piece of wood was a given.



That's just an assumption on your part.  She may be dumber than a bag of rocks.  JK



> The problem I have with using displacement to measure volume is that most wood will float in water. You can push it under but that adds some error.



The problem with directly measuring volume is that the wood shrinks and warps a lot as it dries.  Plus, even using a high-quality Starrett rule would not give accurate enough results, you'd need to take several measurements with a dial caliper and average them all out.  However, with the proper size graduated cylinder, three needles stuck into a cork like a tripod could push the sample just under the water without skewing the results at all and give a much better result.  Gets to use more lab equipment instead of a mundane ruler, as well as getting a lesson in displacement.  Maybe she'll even have an Archimedean "Eureka" moment of her own. 




> Maybe we should let the kid decide what she wants to show before we come up with a bunch of experiments that will not address her question.



Sure, but I think she may need some direction to see what kinds of results might actually be useful before she makes that decision.  But since she is already interested in the heating properties of various woods, I think she will come to the conclusion that she wants to show how much fuel energy is stored in each of them per unit volume.


----------



## FPX Dude (Dec 14, 2011)

...and have her pull up some sites with BTU ratings too!


----------



## cptoneleg (Dec 14, 2011)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





  Poof no more Marty, he was just too serious for us


----------



## fossil (Dec 14, 2011)

Marty S said:
			
		

> ...A solid piece of hickory the exact size of a piece of balsa wood will displace the same volume...



Wrong.  If the object in question has a density less than that of water, it will float.  Then the weight of the water displaced will exactly equal the _weight_ of the floating object.  As Hickory is a higher density wood than Balsa, then if they are exactly the same size, the (heavier) Hickory will sink farther into the water before it begins to float, thus displacing more water as compared with the less dense (lighter) Balsa.  If we were talking about solid materials whose density was greater than that of water, so that when immersed they would completely sink rather than float, and we wanted to measure their _volume_, then yes, the amount of water displaced by two different samples of equal dimensions would displace exactly the same amopunt of liquid when immersed, but it wouldn't tell us anything about the weights of the samples, only their volumes.  Rick


----------



## FPX Dude (Dec 14, 2011)

another thread to help https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/85883/


----------



## Ehouse (Dec 14, 2011)

As the father of an eight year old daughter,  I have to say that Marty S's outline for an experiment is entirely appropriate, and well within her capabilities.  Some of the other suggestions are good too, but using a real scientific procedure with precise measurements and taking into account as many variables as possible is a valuable and enhanced learning experience.  When you  dumb it down, the results are not reliable.  That's a good lesson to learn in itself.  He's not trying to do the project for her but providing exactly what was asked for.

Ehouse


----------



## cptoneleg (Dec 14, 2011)

Ehouse said:
			
		

> As the father of an eight year old daughter,  I have to say that Marty S's outline for an experiment is entirely appropriate, and well within her capabilities.  Some of the other suggestions are good too, but using a real scientific procedure with precise measurements and taking into account as many variables as possible is a valuable and enhanced learning experience.  When you  dumb it down, the results are not reliable.  That's a good lesson to learn in itself.  He's not trying to do the project for her but providing exactly what was asked for.
> 
> Ehouse




  Some kids blow up get mad and take there ball and go home, and never grow up- As a granpa  of about 8 there's another Lesson.


----------



## Battenkiller (Dec 14, 2011)

fossil said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, now _I'm_ gonna assume something.  I gonna assume that Marty meant you had to push the wood under water to get its volume by displacement.  Of course, you can do both.  You can determine the weight by measuring the displaced water while floating, then determine the volume by pushing the floating wood under the surface of the water and taking another displacement reading.

But all this makes me think that if these minor details are such sticking points for the engineers, what hope does an 8 year-old child have?  %-P


----------



## pen (Dec 14, 2011)

Meanwhile..... I wonder what the original poster and kid old are doing tonight  

pen


----------



## cptoneleg (Dec 14, 2011)

pen said:
			
		

> Meanwhile..... I wonder what the original poster and kid old are doing tonight
> 
> pen






  Me too :lol:


----------



## Hogwildz (Dec 15, 2011)

When I was eight, this crap would be too boring for me, I would have lost interest, and gone on to something more fun.
It can be a fun experiment, and not so bookwormish.
Depends on the kid I suppose.
Now actual burning of wood, that I would have gotten into though.


----------



## Mrs. Krabappel (Dec 15, 2011)

Marty S said:
			
		

> ~*~Kathleen~*~ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow!      This step provides only the volume.  You also need to get the mass.   It's how you determine the density of an irregularly shaped object.  I didn't feel the need to bore everyone with the details.  Just pointing out that the volume part of the equation can be determined when you can't get LxWxH.   

I can't imagine how much your life sucks if you felt the need to  de-value a complete stranger.  I wish nothing but hearts and unicorns for you from this point on.  You sound like you need it.   If I made you feel insulted, I'm sorry.    I have run, judged, and entered kids into science fairs, so the points I made were not to counter yours.  Just to add my two cents.


----------



## Dirtsurgeon (Dec 15, 2011)

What a perfect response Kathleen. I'm not sure I would have put that much thought or time into responding to such a post. Good on you.


----------



## Mrs. Krabappel (Dec 15, 2011)

thanks.    

regarding wood that is less dense than water so it will float---
You aren't measuring the density at that point, just the volume via displacement, so you could manipulate it to displace an equal amount of water.   It's a bit of a rough measurement, but it would work.


----------



## BrotherBart (Dec 15, 2011)

This one has the makings of being out of hand about two pages ago. Off to The Nook.

Folks if you want to talk to each other that is what PMs or for. This ain't a chat room.


----------



## firefighterjake (Dec 15, 2011)

pen said:
			
		

> Meanwhile..... I wonder what the original poster and kid old are doing tonight
> 
> pen



They've given up and have decided to grow some green beans in Dixie cups and see how tall they will get . . . at least that was my type of science fair experiments . . . well that and the one year when I attempted to propagate potatoes asexually through tissue culture (but that was in high school.)


----------



## hossthehermit (Dec 15, 2011)

fossil said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aaaaahhh, there ya go, jumpin' to confusions, Mart the Fart did not specify that they would displace the same volume of water, simply that it would displace the same volume. It will, indeed displace the same volume of air.

BUT, back to the original post; I think she oughtta just pile up a bunch of all four kinds they got, set 'em on fire, and cook up a mess of hot dogs, burgers, and marshmallows


----------



## daveswoodhauler (Dec 16, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Eight years old Marty. Eight.



1.) Take a big pine split , burn it, and then record the max temp and how long it burns.
2.) Take a big oak split, burn it, record mas temp, and how long it burns.


----------

