# Papineau/Belanger kitchen wood stoves



## Charlotte987 (Feb 3, 2015)

I'm having difficulty with this kitchen wood stove. Can't seem to get it hot enough to bake with, it only seems to go to 300F, even with lots of maple wood coals. 

It needs to be 400 F and above to bake and this seems to take hours to get there. How would you get such a small firebox (see picture) to get really hot?  Without burning down the house that is.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Is there a bypass to close to direct the heat around the oven?  What size type and height chimney is it hooked to?


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## Dune (Feb 3, 2015)

Are you burning the rounds in the picture? If so you should change wood specie and size. I would burn kiln dried construction timber in small pieces, pretty much kindling size. After a while you will figure out how much firewood you can use vs kiln dried spruce etc. 
You can also feed it tons of small crisp branches. More work though.


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## Dune (Feb 3, 2015)

Wait, that looks like a coal grate.


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## Dune (Feb 3, 2015)

I see the oven draftway is open, is the direct flue closed?


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Dune said:


> Wait, that looks like a coal grate.


yes it is definatly a coal stove but wood should work ok but it will burn up in a hurry


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 3, 2015)

bholler said:


> Is there a bypass to close to direct the heat around the oven?  What size type and height chimney is it hooked to?



Yes there is, its a simple metal slide left for baking and right for lighting. 

Six inch or so chimney flue, two elbows out to an enormous brick chimney that runs two stories to the roof. The stove chimney pipe seems to have a stainless steel sleeve on it inside the chimney. Chimney was rebuilt in the eighties.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

If it is lined you probably have enough draft  I would guess it is probably the fuel like dune said if you are burning those large chunks it probably wont work to well.


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 3, 2015)

Dune said:


> I see the oven draftway is open, is the direct flue closed?



No the direct flue is open, I opened the door so the kitchen stays nice and toasty.  So this is a coal stove? That makes sense with the firebox being so small. Sheesh where on earth am I going to get coal in this day and age.

Thank you for the info.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Charlotte987 said:


> So this is a coal stove? That makes sense with the firebox being so small. Sheesh where on earth am I going to get coal in this day and age.


Yeah the shaker grates are a dead giveaway but many people burn wood in them coal would work better but you should be able to get it to work with wood.  We can get caol all over the place here but we live near allot of mines


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## Dune (Feb 3, 2015)

Charlotte987 said:


> No the direct flue is open, I opened the door so the kitchen stays nice and toasty.  So this is a coal stove? That makes sense with the firebox being so small. Sheesh where on earth am I going to get coal in this day and age.
> 
> Thank you for the info.


Well you are not going to warm the oven much if you don't close the direct flue. Flue gasses are fluid; fluid takes the path of least resistance. It isn't going to flow around the oven if it could just out out the direct draft.


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## Dune (Feb 3, 2015)

Oh Northern Quebec? May not be as much readily available coal as in Penn. 
You could convert it to wood pretty easily. That would double the size of the firebox.


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 3, 2015)

Dune said:


> Well you are not going to warm the oven much if you don't close the direct flue. Flue gasses are fluid; fluid takes the path of least resistance. It isn't going to flow around the oven if it could just out out the direct draft.



I didn't realize that. But, isn't  that dangerous and won't it leak smoke inside the house?


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Charlotte987 said:


> But, isn't that dangerous and won't it leak smoke inside the house?


no that is how you need to do it to heat the oven dune obviously knows this particular stove better than me i have never seen that particular stove so i cant give specifics


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## Dune (Feb 4, 2015)

Charlotte987 said:


> I didn't realize that. But, isn't  that dangerous and won't it leak smoke inside the house?


Not unless you have very insufficient draft and or lots of holes in the flue pipe. From your description and your photo of the fire, you have fine draft. Sufficient draft means the flue is actually creating vacuum at the stove exit. This will draw air into any holes where smoke would escape if the draft were insufficient. 
The key, whenever one engages an indirect draft, is to have a hearty hot fire going ensuring sufficient draft. Start by opening the oven bypass, then close the direct draft. 
You likely don't have a fuel problem after all. 

One thing I would check, since the old stove is apparently new to you, is for fly ash blocking the oven bypass flue. 
There should an opening into the passageway under the oven in the front. You can rig up some kind of small rake to scrape the bottom, under the oven, where it is likely to have collected over the years. Better yet, a small vacuum cleaner attachment, but be sure the stove if stone cold if you go this route.


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 4, 2015)

Thank you so much Dune and bholler for all your help with this stove. These stoves are rare and were specific to Quebec and only made and sold here, that's why most people have not really seen them anywhere else. And that's probably why I can't find any information anywhere about them, in english or french.  

I did find the cleanout here underneath the oven, and I'll scrape it out as you have suggested and probably use a shop vac to get the ash out.


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 4, 2015)

I do have another question, if you have the time. Do you know what any of these things are for?  First is a foot-pedal at the back of the stove, second is a white enamel cast iron box at the back of the stove, right in back of the firebox, third thing is metal object that looks like a key for hand cranking something. I can't discover any place on the stove front or back, where this would fit. Any ideas?


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## Dune (Feb 5, 2015)

The crank is easy and you are lucky to have that if you ever do want to burn coal. That will fit one of the shafts from the coal grate, which should be geared to the other shaft. You "shake down" the coal fire by grinding up the clinkers and ash, where they then fall into the removable ash bin under the grate. Generally one would stop "shaking" when one determines that live coals are being ground into the ash tray. This will have entirely cleared the bottom of the fire from ash and waste. 
Actually it looks like you may have to actuate all three shafts individually, since there is no external gear train, and it is unlikely to have gears inside the firebox. Kind of simplistic design, but if it works...
The box looks like a water back or a place for one (wild guess time) are there any blocked off round openings or pipe fittings? 

Finally the lever, I can only guess that this is the OTHER bypass. I thought I saw the bypass handle pulled up on the right side rear of the stove top in an earlier photo, but it may have been a fireplate handle in retrospection. 
Can you trace the linkages from the pedal to their terminus? You need two levers for the oven to function, one to open the oven surround exhaust vent into the flue, the other to close the main flue. 

If this is not the case, as many more close up photos as possible will help decypher these mysteries. Very curious the beautifultiful old stove, warming ovens on top?


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## Dune (Feb 5, 2015)

Yup, definitely a waterback, or hot water heater. This would have been designed to provide domestic hot water. If I had to guess, your stove is from the mid 20s to pre WWII era (wild guess based on styling alone.) Chances are the unit is burned out, originally it would have been a casting hooked up to a copper storage tank right next to the stove. Such devices are considered scary in today's safety conscious world, where life and limb has some value, therefore I can't recommend any attempt to use this feature other than involving a very good, very experienced plumber. In the event that you do want to take advantage of this feature this is what I have used to replace original equipment on similar stoves http://www.hilkoil.com/
Again a very competent plumber is needed for this job. 
FYI, the hot water would not be "free", you would need to burn more fuel to displace the BTUs removed by the water heater.
These things were just a heck of an improvement over boing huge pots of water every Saturday.


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 5, 2015)

Yes, those are twin warming ovens at the top of the stove, I've used them and they work well, especially for yeast bread. I'll attempt to trace the linkages for the foot pedal at the back of the stove, I suspect the connections have come apart, as I just get this clinking sound when I step on the thing. As for the water heating connections, don't think I want to attempt that, but its nice to know what they are for.
My Grandmother passed away in 2002, and she was 103, she would have been in her twenties when she and my Grandfather bought this stove, you are likely right about it being made in the 1920's or so.

And again, thank you so much for this information.


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## Dune (Feb 5, 2015)

Hmm, well a clunk would be one thing. Certainly a clank is preferable. If you are getting just a clinking sound the damper may not be moving. Pretty simple system usually.


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## coaly (Feb 11, 2015)

Sounds like you could use a few tips common to all wood cook stoves;
You can increase the heating capacity by opening the oven door, but you need to know when you can do that. Your oven temps are indicative of my oven temp with oven off and a normal fire to heat the home. Once the oven is up to temp, (without making exhaust circulate around oven) you can open the oven door. When starting the fire, you want it closed to allow the chimney to heat quicker. Opening the door takes heat away from the firebox. When you figure out how to make it circulate around the oven, never leave the door open with oven "ON". The exhaust gasses cooling as they go around the oven with it closed is enough to create creosote and soot around the oven passageway. Leaving the door open with it "ON" extracts so much heat, water vapor will condensate and make a gooey mess under the oven. If you have a pipe damper, always keep it wide open when oven is in use. You need maximum draft to circulate around oven.

I'd imagine you've already figured out moving pots and pans around is the way to get the correct heat you want.
The lids remove to set pans directly over fire. It will cook faster than a gas or electric cook top, so be ready to keep food moving when cooking directly over firebox flame. Older cast iron pans will have a smoke ring around the bottom for a better seal. It won't let smoke in, but it will allow air to leak in increasing fire when you may not want it. Opening lids will give it lots of oxygen at first, but is detrimental to the fire since it allows indoor air to rush up chimney cooling the flue and reducing draft. Below is the most handy stove top lid I've found that allows a smaller pan or just the right amount of heat to the bottom of a kettle if you don't have one large enough to cover the full size eye;



	

		
			
		

		
	
 "Nest"

When you get the oven working right and it comes up to temperature, you'll find you won't burn things like in a conventional oven. That's due to no air circulation that's required in electric and gas ovens that dries food out. (the secret why they bake better, and food just tastes better in a wood oven) Keep face and body back when opening door since the steam from cooking food will come out at you when you open the door.

It's common for the front oven door to condensate and drip on the floor when open during basting or turning meats. A kitchen towel on the floor under door may be needed to catch the drips.


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 14, 2015)

Thank you so much Coaly for your help, I am a neophyte when it comes to baking with this oven. It's been trial and error from the beginning. The stove-top is another story as I've used it to cook meals and have all my Gram's flat-bottomed iron pots and pans and they work extremely well. So that's why the chicken was perfect, when I baked it, there was no air circulation inside the oven.


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## coaly (Feb 15, 2015)

Yes, a conventional oven requires lots of air circulation. Many people don't know many gas ovens are made to open the broiler or storage door under the oven for proper circulation when on. Cookie sheets need to have air space all around the edges...... and most ovens vent out the top somewhere. All that circulation carries away heat and moisture. Wood ovens don't circulate, but you need to move the food since the fire box side will be hotter. It steams as well as bakes, so everything is moist. It's difficult to burn things in the oven and very hard to brown the top of casseroles. We have a Garland commercial double gas oven in the same kitchen that is rarely used since putting in the wood cook stove. You'll find when doing a full bird, the cooking time is much less than a conventional oven too.
When you don't need much heat in the house, but want to cook on the top, you'll find removing a lid makes the pan hot enough to cook fast without heating the entire cook top. That's how they cooked in the summer. A small wood fire with just kindling, and cook over the flames with lid removed. If you have an upper air intake OVER the fire, when done cooking, you open that to allow indoor air to be pulled across stove top and up chimney. That is dilution air up the chimney that cools it and slows draft. The upper air intake was also used when burning coal. Coal requires all the air to come up through the fire bed. It will only burn with oxygen coming up through it. Very little is added above the fire to ignite coal gas that escapes from the coal and burns blue. Since they burn out overnight with all the draft from chimney pulling through fire, opening a vent above the fire or into the chimney slows the fire. Same principal as a barometric damper. So to ensure a fire in the morning, the bottom intake is almost closed, and the upper open to lengthen burn time. That's only with coal. A wood fire doesn't care where the air comes from.
 You may also find a large flat bottom griddle that fits over the entire opening over the fire. Large copper boilers were shaped correctly to fit over the hole created by removing both lids and center section as shown in your picture.

 Are you oiling your top occasionally? It looks dry with no protective coating in your pics. It should season the same as pans.


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## Charlotte987 (Feb 15, 2015)

> Are you oiling your top occasionally? It looks dry with no protective coating in your pics. It should season the same as pans



The photo looks a little 'orangey', the stove on the other hand was coated with stove blacking a week or so before I took the pictures. Wanted to see how it would look afterwards, I will continue to oil it though on a regular basis.


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## coaly (Feb 15, 2015)

Stove black doesn't stick to machined or polished surfaces. It's for rough cast. If it has been oiled, it won't stick anyway. When done correctly, the oil polymerizes and becomes cross linked as another material with a much higher smoke or burn point. It's different than seasoning pans in a 500 degree oven since the top can't get hotter than that for a few cycles as it hardens. Polymerized fat is the stuff in ovens baked on that takes a 900 to 950* self cleaning oven to remove. That's the coating you want. Once you have the coating built up, it withstands 800* f. There are right and wrong oils to use and quite a science behind it.


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