# Storage Benefits and Idling Concerns...



## KenLockett (Dec 21, 2012)

OK, I have maybe what some might consider a stupid question, but I am a little confused as to why idling for reasonable periods of time (i.e 30-60 minutes versus 2-4 hours) at specific conditions is so bad for a gassifier type wood boiler.  By specific conditions I mean correct draft and dampers closed/draft fan off such that combustion is inhibited in firebox.

I have a Tarm Solo 40 Plus with Storage and have been up and running for a little over a hear now and other than a good coating of shiny creosote in the firebox (which I have been told by other users and the OEM is normal - was very concerned in the beginning), have no issues with creosote in my secondary chamber or flue.

When my unit idles I assume combustion is inhibited since I have absolutely no smoke from the chimney and the metal flue section from the appliance to the chimney cement flue is cool to the touch (obviously not immediately but into the idle cycle).

After much time spent on the forum with many members citing the benefits of storage and issues with idling I have become obsessed with proper loading such that idling time is reduced even to the point of adding a temperature controller and micro-PLC to allow me to time my firing and idle periods including counting number of firing/idle cycles.  Also monitors temperature of boiler supply with time delay to drive an alarm buzzer alerting me when it is time to reload the boiler with fuel.

I actually enjoy the tinkering and daily loading of the boiler.  Have considered storage but actually think I might get bored only building a fire once or twice a day if that.  In addition, what if your burn time for the storage capacity is say 3 hours and you miscalculate and add too much fuel after your storage is at setpoint?  Would you not idle then for say the next 12-24 hours?  Just trying to decide if storage is all that it is cut out to be and if for some maybe it is not the best strategy.  Any thoughts?


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 21, 2012)

I've been burning for a year without storage. Just cleaned the boiler and no creosote. Just a fine coating of ash on everything. I'm adding storage mainly for convenience. I burn pine and need to reload at 5 am on really cold nights. Hopefully storage will allow me to get through the nights without reloading.

As far as idleing  if storage is up to temp and I overload the boiler my piping will send the water from the boiler to heat the house and not draw from storage until the fire is out. So no more ideling than without storage. And probably a lot less.


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## KenLockett (Dec 21, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> I've been burning for a year without storage. Just cleaned the boiler and no creosote. Just a fine coating of ash on everything. I'm adding storage mainly for convenience. I burn pine and need to reload at 5 am on really cold nights. Hopefully storage will allow me to get through the nights without reloading.
> 
> As far as idleing if storage is up to temp and I overload the boiler my piping will send the water from the boiler to heat the house and not draw from storage until the fire is out. So no more ideling than without storage. And probably a lot less.


 
On those cold nights when you have to reload at 5am, at what time in the evening do you make your final load and do you fill the firebox to the brim?  Would seem in your case as with me no issues with idling and that storage would be simply for convenience.  If I did put storage in I would plumb it so I could run in a bypass mode to storage if I so chose.  Again, not sure if the investment cost of the storage in my case is worth the return.  In your case are you unable to find hardwood for longer burns?  To me seems cheaper at least in the short term to invest in purchasing quantities of hardwood versus adding storage.  I for one am short on additional real-estate for the storage tanks and am not even absolutely sure how I would get them into the basement assuming long length.  Had a bear of a time getting the boiler in.


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## maple1 (Dec 21, 2012)

I think storage is more about convenience than anything else - but I also think it adds to efficiency if the boiler can burn unrestricted until the fuel is gone. 

After living with my old unit for 17 years and having to either get up early to re-load with wood, live with a cold house in the mornings if I didn't get up early, or listen to the oil burner sending money out my flue if I didn't want either - having a warm house 24/7 with only having to tend to the boiler in the evenings is priceless. Throw in the ability to make it through a couple of days in the winter with no fire (with proper planning) when nobody is home - even more priceless.

Add in the reduced wood consumption I'm pretty sure I'm seeing and I'm sold on the benefits of storage.

Having said all that, I would also agree that it is not always 'the best strategy', depending on ones personal situation & preferences - as can be seen by all the various heating system layouts being used quite happily by everyone on here.


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## Fred61 (Dec 21, 2012)

I run with storage and build one new fire a day. My boiler will idle for about 10 munutes once during the charging of the tank, usually toward the end of the burn when tank temperatures approach boiler temps. Usually by then the fire is mostly all charcoal and doesn't deposit much tar on the fire chamber walls. My walls are not shiny but are coated with a dry crumbly black coating. I don't know if it means anything or not but I became a little gun shy about that shiny surface. It looks like wet tar and that's what the firebox looked like on my Wood Gun which started weeping water through the walls in 8 years.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 21, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> On those cold nights when you have to reload at 5am, at what time in the evening do you make your final load and do you fill the firebox to the brim?  Would seem in your case as with me no issues with idling and that storage would be simply for convenience.  If I did put storage in I would plumb it so I could run in a bypass mode to storage if I so chose.  Again, not sure if the investment cost of the storage in my case is worth the return.  In your case are you unable to find hardwood for longer burns?  To me seems cheaper at least in the short term to invest in purchasing quantities of hardwood versus adding storage.  I for one am short on additional real-estate for the storage tanks and am not even absolutely sure how I would get them into the basement assuming long length.  Had a bear of a time getting the boiler in.




On cold nights (10* or so) I fill the boiler at 10. Fire will be out by 5 but the house is still warm. On below zero nights I use some hardwood. 90 % of what I burn is pine that a tree service drops off already cut to length. I have to cut my own trees if I want hardwood, just takes me more time. It is much easier for me to use the free pine.

I also find on many sunny winter days that I'm waiting untill 5 or later to start a fire since I have good solar gain. I have to judge the wood load right or I can't reload at ten when I want to go to bed. Storage will allow me to load the boiler up at more convenient times of the day.


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## heaterman (Dec 21, 2012)

From what I hear, the latest emission testing has revealed that the outdoor gassers and even top notch indoor gassers get quite "dirty" when idling and coming out of an idle period. The powers that be are now talking about minimum size storage capacity for all gasification units with pellet burners being a possible exception. This is due to the fact they can shut down with an empty fuel chamber with each cycle. We will be hearing more about this in the future I'm sure. 
Idling is something to be avoided.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 21, 2012)

That doesn't sound good for future wood gunners that don't want to use storage.


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## KenLockett (Dec 21, 2012)

heaterman said:


> From what I hear, the latest emission testing has revealed that the outdoor gassers and even top notch indoor gassers get quite "dirty" when idling and coming out of an idle period. The powers that be are now talking about minimum size storage capacity for all gasification units with pellet burners being a possible exception. This is due to the fact they can shut down with an empty fuel chamber with each cycle. We will be hearing more about this in the future I'm sure.
> Idling is something to be avoided.


 
Heaterman, my gasser unit is 140K BTU output and my heating load based upon baseboard length is roughly 65K BTU and not sure about my indirect hot water heater adds.  What do you think the minimum size storage capacity I could go with is?  I have seen on here storage as little as 400 gallons and as high as 1000 gallons.  Water capacity of my boiler is approximately 50 gallons.  Do you think adding as little as 200 gallons of simple storage would even be worthwhile or is there some magical minimum number that yields reasonable return on investment.


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## avc8130 (Dec 21, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> That doesn't sound good for future wood gunners that don't want to use storage.


 
Maybe Wood Gun will lobby.

I'd be more concerned with a carte blanche ban on wood burners.  That is essentially what happened to the outdoor guys.  Before the outdoor gassifiers could even make it, many towns banned OWBs altogether.

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 21, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> Heaterman, my gasser unit is 140K BTU output and my heating load based upon baseboard length is roughly 65K BTU and not sure about my indirect hot water heater adds. What do you think the minimum size storage capacity I could go with is? I have seen on here storage as little as 400 gallons and as high as 1000 gallons. Water capacity of my boiler is approximately 50 gallons. Do you think adding as little as 200 gallons of simple storage would even be worthwhile or is there some magical minimum number that yields reasonable return on investment.


 I'm no expert but I do have some experience with no storage, 200 gallon storage and 500 gallon on my 85000 btu unit. Even with my little boiler, 200 gallons is like no storage. A waste of time and money. With 140,000 btu I would recommend 1000 gallons. 500 gallons is still borderline for me with my unit and I have a real light heat load. I know it's expensive, a pain in the you know what to install and a gross piece of hardware to be looking at for the duration but once you experience the benefits, which won't take long, you'll overlook all the negatives.


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## KenLockett (Dec 21, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> That doesn't sound good for future wood gunners that don't want to use storage.


 
I'm sure those of us without storage would be grandfathered in and not be subject to new regulations. There are regulations pending for outdoor wood boilers in NY state but pre-installed units are exempt, or so I've heard.  I'm sure if the radical environmentalists had their way we'd all be heating with electric!


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## Fred61 (Dec 21, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> I'm sure if the radical environmentalists had their way we'd all be heating with electric!



As long as it's not generated with coal, oil, wind, nuclear or those damn hydroelectric dams.


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## KenLockett (Dec 21, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> As long as it's not generated with coal, oil, wind, nuclear or those damn hydroelectric dams.


 
'Tis the irony I suppose


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## Tennman (Dec 21, 2012)

Ken, now in my 4th season I've finally gotten to the point of having well seasoned wood and I'm amazed at how much excess energy we now have. In previous years the boiler struggled to keep up with the demand, but regardless of temp this year it's easily staying ahead. Consequently lots of idling now which we only saw when it was mild outside. Before I thot storage would be nice but now I see I need it.


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## Nofossil (Dec 21, 2012)

I ran my first year without storage. I was pretty careful about loading, did lots of small fires, and let the house temp fluctuate quite a bit. The boiler was clean at the end - no creosote.

I can't say that I've seen an increase in efficiency after adding storage, but there's a HUGE increase in convenience. I'm skipping a day right now - third time this week. For me storage lets me build a fire when it's convenient for me, and allows me to maintain much more even house temperatures.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 21, 2012)

Nofossil said:


> I ran my first year without storage. I was pretty careful about loading, did lots of small fires, and let the house temp fluctuate quite a bit. The boiler was clean at the end - no creosote.
> 
> I can't say that I've seen an increase in efficiency after adding storage, but there's a HUGE increase in convenience. I'm skipping a day right now - third time this week. For me storage lets me build a fire when it's convenient for me, and allows me to maintain much more even house temperatures.


That is pretty much how I've been running my boiler with out storage. And how I hope to run it with storage.


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## heaterman (Dec 21, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> I'm sure those of us without storage would be grandfathered in and not be subject to new regulations. There are regulations pending for outdoor wood boilers in NY state but pre-installed units are exempt, or so I've heard. I'm sure if the radical environmentalists had their way we'd all be heating with electric!


 
........and only when the wind was blowing or the sun was shining.


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## heaterman (Dec 21, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> Heaterman, my gasser unit is 140K BTU output and my heating load based upon baseboard length is roughly 65K BTU and not sure about my indirect hot water heater adds. What do you think the minimum size storage capacity I could go with is? I have seen on here storage as little as 400 gallons and as high as 1000 gallons. Water capacity of my boiler is approximately 50 gallons. Do you think adding as little as 200 gallons of simple storage would even be worthwhile or is there some magical minimum number that yields reasonable return on investment.


 
Storage should be of enough capacity to absorb the heat from an entire load of wood from whatever boiler you are burning. A rough rule of thumb would be that 100# of seasoned wood can generate about 735,000 btu's @ an efficiency of 70%. Considering that factor would be a good place to start in sizing your storage. If your boiler holds 50# size to that, if it holds 100# size to that.
The next thing to consider is the temperature swing you can live with. Can you run your storage from 130 up to 180* or do you have to stay at 160* and up. The heating systems ability to use lower temp water will be a big factor in the sizing question also.
For example; if you used the 100# scenario and needed to bank 735,000 btu, the storage capacity would have to be twice as big with a 20 degree diff as it would a 40*.

Other factors to consider would be the heat loss of the building and how often you wish to load the boiler.


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## jebatty (Dec 22, 2012)

> heaterman: A rough rule of thumb would be that 100# of seasoned wood can generate about 735,000 btu's @ an efficiency of 70%.


 
Heaterman, I think this is over-stating the btu's from a load of wood. My research shows that one pound of wood at 20% MC and 400F stack temperature will generate about 6,050 btu's, or 100 lbs will generate 605,000 btu's. A change of 100F in stack temperature will result in about a 2-3% change in btu's, so that 300F stack temperature and 100 lbs of wood results in about 623,000 btu's, and 500F stack temperature about 587,000 btu's. Energy in Wood

Next is a reduction resulting from the inefficiency of the boiler in transferring that energy to the system. These inefficiencies result from losses through the boiler skin, piping, storage tank, etc. For my Tarm, using the 6,050 btu/lb, and measuring the increase in water temperature in my well insulated 1000 gal storage tank, the efficiency is about 81%. So, 100 lbs of wood results in btu increase in 1,000 gal of storage of 490,050 btu's, which is a 59F rise in temperature; or 1.7 lb of wood will raise the tank temperature 1F.

I load my Tarm based on the degrees I want to raise the temperature in my storage tank. If the storage tank average temperature (determined by 3 sensors on the tank with digital read-outs), is 120F, and I want to raise the temperature to 190F (+70F), I weigh out and burn 1.7 x 70 lbs of wood = 119 lbs. I burn mostly pine and some aspen, and that then results in 2-3 loads of wood over a 4-6 hour period. My storage tank is located right next to the Tarm, a 15-58 is the circulator whose only function is to load storage from the Tarm, and flow rate is about 14gpm on HI. This burn method results in charging the tank as determined with no idling, because as the last load burns down and delta-T closes, btu output from the Tarm also is falling so that all output is being transferred to storage.



> nofossil: I can't say that I've seen an increase in efficiency after adding storage, but there's a HUGE increase in convenience. I'm skipping a day right now - third time this week. For me storage lets me build a fire when it's convenient for me, and allows me to maintain much more even house temperatures.


 
I agree completely with nofo's experience, and in my case I only need build a fire at most every other day and at a time that is convenient. The number of times a fire needs to be built is of course based on the heat load to be satisfied, and my experience is related to heating my 1500 sq ft shop, well insulated, and maintaining an in-floor radiant temperature of 61F. In my case the Tarm and storage also is located my shop, so nearly all system heat losses also heat the shop. Based on my calculations in this situation the overall efficiency of my system is raised from about 81% to 89%.

Although I can't say I've seen (or measured) an increase in efficiency from storage, logic tells me that the efficiency has increased due at least to fewer boiler initial start up times and idle shut-down and re-start times. I believe a fire is least efficient in converting the fuel to energy during these times, and that the most efficient fire in a gasification boiler is when the fire is allowed to burn at the maximum rate based on the design of the boiler.

Happy Holidays to all.


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## KenLockett (Dec 22, 2012)

Tennman said:


> Ken, now in my 4th season I've finally gotten to the point of having well seasoned wood and I'm amazed at how much excess energy we now have. In previous years the boiler struggled to keep up with the demand, but regardless of temp this year it's easily staying ahead. Consequently lots of idling now which we only saw when it was mild outside. Before I thot storage would be nice but now I see I need it.


 
Tennman, in your case, you're keeping up with demand with excess energy and subsequently have lots of idling. My point is that what is the problem with the idling as long as there is no creosote formation. Plenty say no gain in efficiency with the storage. Only reason I can see for the storage assuming there is no creosote formation is convenience. If your objective is not convenience then why do you say you need it? Not trying to be critical just trying to understand your reasoning.


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## KenLockett (Dec 22, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> Tennman, in your case, you're keeping up with demand with excess energy and subsequently have lots of idling. My point is that what is the problem with the idling as long as there is no creosote formation. Plenty say no gain in efficiency with the storage. Only reason I can see for the storage assuming there is no creosote formation is convenience. If your objective is not convenience then why do you see you need it? Not trying to be critical just trying to understand your reasoning.


 
Over the past 24 hour period, I have run approximately 10 firing/idle cycles, and my total firing time was approximately 900 minutes and my approximate idle time was 540 minutes. Outside temps were 30-38 degF so not even close to the coldest nights. Would expect the ratio of firing to idling to increase with colder temps. Not building super large fires at this time but that does not bother me. Any thoughts from anyone on this ratio? Too large, Too small? Would assume this is typical for the past year although only now able to measure times with the PLC and temperature controller.

By the way, house temps for non-setback areas remain consistent during this period at 72 Deg with no observable swing (i.e. downstairs 68, upstairs 72 during night and downstairs 72, upstairs 68 during day). I run two heating zones.

By the way, can get a 8-12 hour burn depending on outside temps with full load of wood (5.1 Cu Ft firebox).  Don't normally fully load other than when very cold outside.


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## maple1 (Dec 23, 2012)

The past couple of weeks, I've only had one firing cycle every day. My boiler does not idle. My firebox holds 3 cu.ft., I've ben starting with just under a full firebox (with lots of airspace for firebuilding), then topping up if necessary about 3 hours later - so I think between 4 & 5 fu.ft./day.

There has to be an efficiency gain in going from 10 firing cycles to just one. Every one of those cycles has some start up smoke, and things (chimney & refractory) have to get hottened up again for full burn efficiency each time.

I haven't seen any good data that really shows increased efficiency with storage on here, but my seat of pants is saying there has to be some?


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## Nofossil (Dec 23, 2012)

I believe that there has to be some efficiency gain as well. Certainly there would be if you burned without storage by loading up to the gills and then letting it idle.

However, data doesn't generally lie. I haven't seen data from my own (highly instrumented) experience or from anyone else that quantifies a measurable improvement from running a gasifier efficiently without storage, to running it with storage. I'm still a big fan of storage - wouldn't want to give it up, but if you're already minimizing idle time I wouldn't suggest that you cut less firewood based on adding storage ;-)


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## KenLockett (Dec 23, 2012)

maple1 said:


> The past couple of weeks, I've only had one firing cycle every day. My boiler does not idle. My firebox holds 3 cu.ft., I've ben starting with just under a full firebox (with lots of airspace for firebuilding), then topping up if necessary about 3 hours later - so I think between 4 & 5 fu.ft./day.
> 
> There has to be an efficiency gain in going from 10 firing cycles to just one. Every one of those cycles has some start up smoke, and things (chimney & refractory) have to get hottened up again for full burn efficiency each time.
> 
> I haven't seen any good data that really shows increased efficiency with storage on here, but my seat of pants is saying there has to be some?


 
I agree that perhaps there is some efficiency gain.  I'm just suggesting that overall it may be so little to be negligible and not warrant the monetary investment required for installation of storage.  I can see the benefits of storage relative to convenience depending on how much time one has to 'tinker' and load firewood for heating purposes.  I think my main concern relative to the idling periods is am I creating creosote and/or operating the appliance in such a manner that might reduce the life of the unit.


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## KenLockett (Dec 23, 2012)

Nofossil said:


> I believe that there has to be some efficiency gain as well. Certainly there would be if you burned without storage by loading up to the gills and then letting it idle.
> 
> However, data doesn't generally lie. I haven't seen data from my own (highly instrumented) experience or from anyone else that quantifies a measurable improvement from running a gasifier efficiently without storage, to running it with storage. I'm still a big fan of storage - wouldn't want to give it up, but if you're already minimizing idle time I wouldn't suggest that you cut less firewood based on adding storage ;-)


 
I think in a nutshell, if cost and space was not an issue I would have storage installed but still plumbed in such a way that I could run the unit in an 'on-demand' mode for those times when I'm not busy and want to be more pro-active with the daily operation of the unit.  Kind of like operation of a traditional wood stove.


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## KenLockett (Dec 23, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> I think in a nutshell, if cost and space was not an issue I would have storage installed but still plumbed in such a way that I could run the unit in an 'on-demand' mode for those times when I'm not busy and want to be more pro-active with the daily operation of the unit. Kind of like operation of a traditional wood stove.


 

Was doing a little research for 1000 Gallon hot water tanks. Oh my goodnes, $10,000 - $20,000 for the tank itself! As I like to do things myself to save money, I found the link below to a guy that has built some of his own tanks. Very interesting. The link is posted below:

http://www.raycotechnologies.org/hot_water_storage_systems.htm


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## stee6043 (Dec 23, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> I think in a nutshell, if cost and space was not an issue I would have storage installed but still plumbed in such a way that I could run the unit in an 'on-demand' mode for those times when I'm not busy and want to be more pro-active with the daily operation of the unit. Kind of like operation of a traditional wood stove.


 
I've got my storage plumbed in this manner.  It's quite simple.  I can shut off the tanks and send water directly through my heat exchanger or primary loop and run just like a non-storage system if I need to.  In 5 years, I have yet to run it this way though.  Good to have the option I figured.


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## maple1 (Dec 23, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> I agree that perhaps there is some efficiency gain. I'm just suggesting that overall it may be so little to be negligible and not warrant the monetary investment required for installation of storage. I can see the benefits of storage relative to convenience depending on how much time one has to 'tinker' and load firewood for heating purposes. I think my main concern relative to the idling periods is am I creating creosote and/or operating the appliance in such a manner that might reduce the life of the unit.


 
Good points.

I decided after last winter that it would be my last 'tinkering' with my old boiler fire. I was literally almost exhausted when it was over from sleep deprivation in constantly keeping up with the heat demand - feeding every two hours during the day, last load in late at night, first load in early at morning, dealing with mountains of hot coals that wouldn't burn down. It was getting to be a huge ball & chain. Throw in a very close call on my second floor new steel roof while attempting to sweep the chimney - I was over the tinkering.

Of course, I could have alleviated most of that by letting the oil burner having its way with me more - but I was too stubborn for that. A more efficient unit in the first place would also have made a big difference - just one of those decisions I made when I built this place that turned out later to not be a good one.

EDIT: BTW, I don't think the storage part of my new system added more than $1200 to the total costs, for the tanks, fittings, piping, & framing/insulation done so far.


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## KenLockett (Dec 23, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Good points.
> 
> I decided after last winter that it would be my last 'tinkering' with my old boiler fire. I was literally almost exhausted when it was over from sleep deprivation in constantly keeping up with the heat demand - feeding every two hours during the day, last load in late at night, first load in early at morning, dealing with mountains of hot coals that wouldn't burn down. It was getting to be a huge ball & chain. Throw in a very close call on my second floor new steel roof while attempting to sweep the chimney - I was over the tinkering.
> 
> ...


 
Where did you get your tanks?


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## nrcrash (Dec 23, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> Where did you get your tanks?


Contact Mark at AHONA. He sell refurbished propane tanks that already have the correct ports welded in for you to connect to.


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## KenLockett (Dec 23, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Good points.
> 
> I decided after last winter that it would be my last 'tinkering' with my old boiler fire. I was literally almost exhausted when it was over from sleep deprivation in constantly keeping up with the heat demand - feeding every two hours during the day, last load in late at night, first load in early at morning, dealing with mountains of hot coals that wouldn't burn down. It was getting to be a huge ball & chain. Throw in a very close call on my second floor new steel roof while attempting to sweep the chimney - I was over the tinkering.
> 
> ...


 
I assume you're discussion about high heat demand is in reference to the Benjamin CC500?  I looked at one of those before deciding on the Tarm Gasification unit.  Glad I went the route I did.  Remember reading about drafting issues with the Benjamin units and lower than stated efficiencies.


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## KenLockett (Dec 23, 2012)

nrcrash said:


> Contact Mark at AHONA. He sell refurbished propane tanks that already have the correct ports welded in for you to connect to.


 
Thanks, I'll have to check them out.


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## Tennman (Dec 23, 2012)

Ken, wish I had my real keyboard then I'd give more details but too slow from my tablet. It will become apparent when and if storage is desirable as you gain experience with your gasser boiler. To give you some perspective one boiler tool I use more than any is a 6' pole to tap loose my damper flap which sticks shut from creosote. OFTEN. Being at much lower latitude for the last month nites in the 20's and days in the mid-50's have been common. Not unusual for me to have a heavy buildup of creosote around my upper chamber door even using very dry wood. At least the best I've ever burned! It's clear the boiler is its happiest running wide open with the upper chamber hot. So during the day we need heat, but not any where near the capacity of our boiler... Consequently lots of idling and some creosote even with ideal wood. So basically here I am in December operating like the shoulder season. Other than doors and damper getting sticky I've never seen any consequence from creosote. Inevitably lots of idling leads to burn complications like bridging and issues with lots or charcoal which if left unattended some times shuts down the boiler. Bottom line, just enjoy your first season and don't sweat the creosote. I make more than anyone and see it less of a risk to my boiler and more an indicator of inefficient use of my capacity. When my boiler is working hard and hot is when she's the happiest. Soon yours will begin to talk to you. Only way to run wide open on mild days is to dump energy to storage...... And use it later. So don't sweat the creosote, enjoy what ya got, and time will tell. She'll start to talk to you about storage..... Someday.


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## Clarkbug (Dec 24, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> Where did you get your tanks?


 
Ken,

You mentioned you had a tight time getting your boiler in, and might not have much space for tanks.  I am using 220 gallon expansion tanks, but I think that Tarm sells the same size to fit through a doorway if you needed to go that route.  Or you could try Tom and American Solartechnics if you wanted to build an indirect tank.  That way the pieces knock down and can be built back up if you have the space.  That is, if you decide you wanted to go the storage route.


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## avc8130 (Dec 24, 2012)

maple1 said:


> EDIT: BTW, I don't think the storage part of my new system added more than $1200 to the total costs, for the tanks, fittings, piping, & framing/insulation done so far.


 
Can you provide specifics on how you did the storage portion for that price?

ac


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## stee6043 (Dec 24, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> Can you provide specifics on how you did the storage portion for that price?
> 
> ac


 
Many folks around here have found used 500g propane (salvage) tanks for $100-250 each.  I paid $1300 each for my tanks brand new from a dealer.  I did this to avoid the cleaning required of used tanks. 

Even my "new" pricing for propane tanks had me sub-$4,000 complete including the rack, plumbing, expansion, insulation and box material.  Was it worth it?  For me I couldn't heat with wood without storage.  So it was not a decision I had to make.  It was a part of my system design from day one.


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## maple1 (Dec 24, 2012)

Just dug out the invoice from my tank purchase. The 334 gallon tanks were $350 each.

So $700 for two tanks. Welding was $225.  Timber, strapping & screws for stacking was $50. Breaking pipe & fittings out for just storage from all the rest is kind of fuzzy, but it was black iron so didn't cost much to start with. Ball valves at $25 each - likely 4 on storage. My laddomat is storage related but also required, so factor in maybe another couple hundred for a 15-58 circ & a danfoss, if needed - but some costs are situation dependant, most storage-less boilers already have those (return temp protections) that could just be re-plumbed. Insulation wise, I had foam board & fibreglass left over from other house projects, spent maybe $30 on 2x4's, and another $50 on one bundle of Roxul that I'm not sure I needed - half of it is now a project left-over.

Ball park figures - YYMV of course.


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## KenLockett (Dec 24, 2012)

Tennman said:


> Ken, wish I had my real keyboard then I'd give more details but too slow from my tablet. It will become apparent when and if storage is desirable as you gain experience with your gasser boiler. To give you some perspective one boiler tool I use more than any is a 6' pole to tap loose my damper flap which sticks shut from creosote. OFTEN. Being at much lower latitude for the last month nites in the 20's and days in the mid-50's have been common. Not unusual for me to have a heavy buildup of creosote around my upper chamber door even using very dry wood. At least the best I've ever burned! It's clear the boiler is its happiest running wide open with the upper chamber hot. So during the day we need heat, but not any where near the capacity of our boiler... Consequently lots of idling and some creosote even with ideal wood. So basically here I am in December operating like the shoulder season. Other than doors and damper getting sticky I've never seen any consequence from creosote. Inevitably lots of idling leads to burn complications like bridging and issues with lots or charcoal which if left unattended some times shuts down the boiler. Bottom line, just enjoy your first season and don't sweat the creosote. I make more than anyone and see it less of a risk to my boiler and more an indicator of inefficient use of my capacity. When my boiler is working hard and hot is when she's the happiest. Soon yours will begin to talk to you. Only way to run wide open on mild days is to dump energy to storage...... And use it later. So don't sweat the creosote, enjoy what ya got, and time will tell. She'll start to talk to you about storage..... Someday.


 
Tennman, this is actually the start of my second season.  I remember a post you made last year regarding the 6' pole you used for loosening the damper.  I too had issues early on with a sticking damper and/or firebox door and believe I posted questions on here pertaining to this.  What I have found this past year though is that this is more a function of having softer wood or believe it or not super dry wood (kiln dried and 6% MC or less).  For about a week at the beginning of this season I had the damper sticking a little and a lot of crusties around the firebox door.  At that time was burning some soft and punky wood.  For the past 3-4 weeks have been burning good dry hardwood (roughly 15-16% MC) and am having absolutely no sticking parts.  Trial and experience has shown me that 15-25% MC hardwood is what the boiler likes.  Furthermore, I find that the boiler does best when I allow the currently load to burn completely down to coals before reloading.  The PLC controller with low alarm buzzer is working wonderfully to notify me of this.  The dryer hardwood makes all the difference.  As you stated above your boiler absolutely starts to talk to you and you understand instinctively when things are going well and when they aren't.  Thanks for your feedback.


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## KenLockett (Dec 24, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Just dug out the invoice from my tank purchase. The 334 gallon tanks were $350 each.
> 
> So $700 for two tanks. Welding was $225. Timber, strapping & screws for stacking was $50. Breaking pipe & fittings out for just storage from all the rest is kind of fuzzy, but it was black iron so didn't cost much to start with. Ball valves at $25 each - likely 4 on storage. My laddomat is storage related but also required, so factor in maybe another couple hundred for a 15-58 circ & a danfoss, if needed - but some costs are situation dependant, most storage-less boilers already have those (return temp protections) that could just be re-plumbed. Insulation wise, I had foam board & fibreglass left over from other house projects, spent maybe $30 on 2x4's, and another $50 on one bundle of Roxul that I'm not sure I needed - half of it is now a project left-over.
> 
> Ball park figures - YYMV of course.


 
Thanks for the breakdown Maple1.  Based upon your feedback and others it would appear that the cost of storage is not as prohibitive as I thought.  Definitely something to consider and would make a great summer project.


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## Fred61 (Dec 24, 2012)

KenLockett said:


> Thanks for the breakdown Maple1. Based upon your feedback and others it would appear that the cost of storage is not as prohibitive as I thought. Definitely something to consider and would make a great summer project.


 And when you fire up next Fall you won't be able to stop thanking these guys


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## goosegunner (Dec 24, 2012)

I paid $550 for my 1000 gallon tank with fittings welded in and my 120 gallon tank that I added for expansion.

Since then I have found 500 gallon tanks for $50 and 1000 gallon for $100.

gg


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## woodsmaster (Dec 24, 2012)

The start up after an idle period can be pretty dirty, so you are  wasting a little fuel and polluting. The real benefit is the convenience factor though. I build one fire a day in the winter. if it's really cold I might have to burn a load and a half. Don't have to worry about messing with it at inconvenient times.


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## peakbagger (Dec 25, 2012)

A reminder that American Solartechnics makes several sizes of modular unpressurized storage tanks. They are made out of Isoboard foam with sheetmetal structure, so no need to insulate the tank afterwards. I installed a 550 gallon tank completely solo. All of the components fit through a door and they can be carried by one person. 

I have almost entirely replaced oil with wood due to storage. Once you get it, you will never look back.


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## avc8130 (Dec 25, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Just dug out the invoice from my tank purchase. The 334 gallon tanks were $350 each.
> 
> So $700 for two tanks. Welding was $225. Timber, strapping & screws for stacking was $50. Breaking pipe & fittings out for just storage from all the rest is kind of fuzzy, but it was black iron so didn't cost much to start with. Ball valves at $25 each - likely 4 on storage. My laddomat is storage related but also required, so factor in maybe another couple hundred for a 15-58 circ & a danfoss, if needed - but some costs are situation dependant, most storage-less boilers already have those (return temp protections) that could just be re-plumbed. Insulation wise, I had foam board & fibreglass left over from other house projects, spent maybe $30 on 2x4's, and another $50 on one bundle of Roxul that I'm not sure I needed - half of it is now a project left-over.
> 
> Ball park figures - YYMV of course.


 
What about expansion?  When I start pricing out storage, expansion always seems to be the cost driver.  

On a non-pressurized storage setup, copper seems to drive the cost.

ac


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## Hansson (Dec 25, 2012)

Over her is the law that you have to have a tank to your boiler. We got laws for everything


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## Tennman (Dec 25, 2012)

Having a wonderful Christmas Day with a house full of guests. It's amazing how much heat having people in the house contributes. Christmas Day and it's low 50's and lots of bodies in the house.... Lots of idling again. You know Ken maybe that punky stuff picks up humidity like a sponge. I've had to "tap" my damper every time I opened today. And yes lots of crusty stuff on my door. For me the biggest savings on installing storage is having 6-7 months to watch Craigslist for a cheap propane tank. If your patient they can be found cheap. 

Getting back to your topic.... For several years when I struggled to keep up with demand didn't see the value of storage. Now after 4 years looks like I'm getting this beast sorted and need to put energy somewhere. I know I can add 1000 gal for under 1500 doing it myself. I should have bought those cheap tanks I've seen over the years on craigslist. Merry Christmas!


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## maple1 (Dec 26, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> What about expansion? When I start pricing out storage, expansion always seems to be the cost driver.
> 
> On a non-pressurized storage setup, copper seems to drive the cost.
> 
> ac


 
Ok, forgot that one.

110 gallon propane tank = $80. Maybe another $20 for fittings for it. So far so good with no bladder.


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## KenLockett (Dec 26, 2012)

Tennman said:


> Having a wonderful Christmas Day with a house full of guests. It's amazing how much heat having people in the house contributes. Christmas Day and it's low 50's and lots of bodies in the house.... Lots of idling again. You know Ken maybe that punky stuff picks up humidity like a sponge. I've had to "tap" my damper every time I opened today. And yes lots of crusty stuff on my door. For me the biggest savings on installing storage is having 6-7 months to watch Craigslist for a cheap propane tank. If your patient they can be found cheap.
> 
> Getting back to your topic.... For several years when I struggled to keep up with demand didn't see the value of storage. Now after 4 years looks like I'm getting this beast sorted and need to put energy somewhere. I know I can add 1000 gal for under 1500 doing it myself. I should have bought those cheap tanks I've seen over the years on craigslist. Merry Christmas!


 
Merry Christmas to you as well Tennman.  Don't run my wood boiler unless temps are roughly 43 DegF or less.  Installed a small woodburning fireplace insert for those type of days.  Actually have the wood boiler shutdown at the moment to see how well the insert will heat when temps dip down into the 20s in the evening.  As far as I can tell it actually kept the house warm last night, until it burned out, then the oil beast took over!  Argh.


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Ok, forgot that one.
> 
> 110 gallon propane tank = $80. Maybe another $20 for fittings for it. So far so good with no bladder.


 
How does that work?  I've never seen an expansion tank without a bladder.

ac


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## maple1 (Dec 26, 2012)

Pics in my thread. Just have it set up the same as a bladder tank, sitting on the floor. I would have put it up high if I could have, likely the higher the better - but I had to put it on the floor.

I did that as an experiment, knowing I might have to replace with bladder tanks in the future if it didn't work. I did see pics on here of someone else doing the same thing though - so for $100+/- I thought it was worth a try. If it doesn't work out I'll just use it for another 110 gallons of storage. So far it's working out - the water level hasn't risen any in it yet, nothing noticeable at least. I also run fairly low pressure - around 8-10 cold, no more than 15 hot. Not sure if that helps or not.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 26, 2012)

Could also use an old electric hot water heater for an expansion tank. Should have all the necessary tappings on it already.


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> Could also use an old electric hot water heater for an expansion tank. Should have all the necessary tappings on it already.


 
What about the concerns that bladder-less tanks introduce oxygen to the water and could cause corrosion?


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## kopeck (Dec 26, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> What about the concerns that bladder-less tanks introduce oxygen to the water and could cause corrosion?


 
From what I understand as long as the water isn't agitated you shouldn't have any trouble.  I think I would feel better with a bladder tank but those suckers are expensive when you start getting up in the 100 gallon range.

Another plug for the American Solartechnics tank.  He has different sizes and different shapes.  I installed mine by my self, it already has the insulation in place and you have to account for just the boiler and it's piping when it comes to expansion.  I had some bugs to work out but Tom was very good to work with.

K


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2012)

kopeck said:


> From what I understand as long as the water isn't agitated you shouldn't have any trouble. I think I would feel better with a bladder tank but those suckers are expensive when you start getting up in the 100 gallon range.
> 
> Another plug for the American Solartechnics tank. He has different sizes and different shapes. I installed mine by my self, it already has the insulation in place and you have to account for just the boiler and it's piping when it comes to expansion. I had some bugs to work out but Tom was very good to work with.
> 
> K


 
But you needed a very expensive copper coil exchanger, right?


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## kopeck (Dec 26, 2012)

avc8130 said:


> But you needed a very expensive copper coil exchanger, right?


 
Well, yes, it wasn't cheap but it all depends on how you look at it.

I figured it all out and the cost of a LP tank, having someone weld it up, then insulate it properly and add in the expansion tanks (I was figuring on bladder type tanks) the price was a wash.  Now if you can find a super cheap LP tank, which a lot of folks on here seem to be able to turn up and can either do the welding your self or know someone that can then it's a cheaper route.

PM me if you want to talk figures.

K


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