# GE Geospring heat pump water heater - Should I?



## legrandice (Dec 27, 2013)

When I purchased my house in 2005 it came with a 3 panel solar hot water system with 120 gal tank.  It worked up until last summer when the storage tank finally gave up and split.  That is a great return on investment for a system that was installed in 1986!   A new storage tank alone would run 2K, and the roof panels are getting quite tired so it was time to decommission it.  I drained it out and GULP....flipped the switch on the oil boiler GAAH.    After living for so long with free hot water in the summer, I was not happy to see the oil tank going down.  I heat almost entirely with wood so all of my oil use is for hot water.

I currently have my hot water heated with my 2005 AO smith boiler with hot water.  No external storage tank is being used now that the solar is out.  

I am just about ready to pull the trigger on the GE geospring 50 gal waterheater:
http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/

I do have a few concerns and need to make up my mind by the end of the year to get the 300 tax credit.  There is no credit available from my local utility.  

Concerns:  

I only have 100A service here and the cost to upgrade is huge.  I would probably want to run this unit in heat pump mode during the summer when I am running the central air.  I would keep the oil for backup if needed.

If I get this unit, my oil boiler will only be used when we go on vacation or have lots of people staying here and need the hot water.  I am concerned about the long periods of inactivity.  When on solar, the boiler would be off for months at a time....so I guess it would be ok.


Sorry for the long rant...I tend to over think everything!


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## woodgeek (Dec 28, 2013)

Short answer....if you have a good location for it then YES.  IIRC, the max current draw on the unit is not that high, if you have free circuit that you can add in the box, I don't see why you would have a problem. Edit:  Looks like a single 30A 240V circuit, like a range or electric dryer.

HPWHs are great...the annual energy usage might be *less* than required for the backup on the old solar system.

What is your location?  There will be a small amount of 'heat stealing' which can take a bite out of payback in a cold climate.  With woodheat, that is not an issue for you.  The rebate makes it a sweet deal, esp if the install is DIY or cheap.

Are you letting the boiler go cold when not in use, or just idle with parasitic losses?


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## chance135 (Dec 28, 2013)

I just purchased one of these units three days ago. I use wood for about 90% of my heating needs but was using my oil furnace to heat DHW. I was able to get rebates from my state and the Feds so the price ended up about the same as a standard hot water heater. I haven't installed it yet but I'll pop in once in awhile to give my thoughts and observations.


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## Justin M (Dec 28, 2013)

I used to heat my hot water with a indirect fired oil boiler.  Since switching to my GE GeoSpring my electric bill has barely changed. I keep it in heat pump mode at all times and it has plenty of hot water for 4 people.


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## legrandice (Dec 28, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Short answer....if you have a good location for it then YES.  IIRC, the max current draw on the unit is not that high, if you have free circuit that you can add in the box, I don't see why you would have a problem. Edit:  Looks like a single 30A 240V circuit, like a range or electric dryer.
> 
> HPWHs are great...the annual energy usage might be *less* than required for the backup on the old solar system.
> 
> ...



I am located in Western MA.

This would go in my basement where I have no heat. My wood stove is an insert upstairs.  In the summer I have surplus heat in the basement that I have been using the AC to remove, so it's not a problem.  In the winter it would be borderline temp for the heat pump so I assume it would need some electric to make up.  It would still be cheaper than burning the oil.

I let the boiler go cold.  I realize this is not the best for it, but I keep a very dry basement with dehumidifiers as I have a lot of electronics down there.  

My best guess is that my solar hot water was using $5-10 of electricity per day to run the  pump!  

I think I am going to pull the trigger and order it up!


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## Justin M (Dec 28, 2013)

Again I run mine in heat pump mode only and it is located in a unfinished portion of my basement. It provides hot water for a family of 4  with no problem.  I was also able to shutdown my dehumidifier once I installed it. Keep in mind that it does have a condensate drain so you will need a floor drain or sump pump to drain it in to.


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## legrandice (Dec 28, 2013)

Justin M said:


> Again I run mine in heat pump mode only and it is located in a unfinished portion of my basement. It provides hot water for a family of 4  with no problem.  I was also able to shutdown my dehumidifier once I installed it. Keep in mind that it does have a condensate drain so you will need a floor drain or sump pump to drain it in to.



Thanks for the feedback!  It's just my wife and I so hopefully it will produce enough in heat pump mode for the winter.  It will be interesting to see how much less I need to run the dehumidifiers in the summer.  

I am planning on getting a condensate pump for it as there is no floor drain.


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## maple1 (Dec 29, 2013)

*My best guess is that my solar hot water was using $5-10 of electricity per day to run the pump!*

What?!?  Seriously!?!


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## legrandice (Dec 29, 2013)

maple1 said:


> *My best guess is that my solar hot water was using $5-10 of electricity per day to run the pump!*
> 
> What?!?  Seriously!?!



It has a .75A motor which I calculated out to $3.88 per month running 12 hours a day which it did during the summer.  The controller and circuit board also draw enough power to be warm to the touch while on.


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## DawsonBuck18 (Dec 29, 2013)

I installed a GE Geospring last week.  I should have good data after a billing cycle.   It was on sale for $999, $250 rebate from Georgia Power, $300 tax rebate from fed, and a %10 military discount made it a no brainier.  In hybrid mode at 130 deg F , it is rated at %60 more efficient than a typical electric water heater. I replaced an electric water heater.   I plan to keep it in hybrid mode and 120 deg for the first billing period then run it in pure heat pump mode for the next billing period and compare savings.  

If you are trying to get your energy cost down, everything matters.  I switched to %100 CFL throught my house.  Motion sensors for lights that typically get left on by my children, such as their closets.  7 ceiling fans running in reverse on low right now.  Doubled my R rating in attic to R60.  Programmable thermostats.  Computers go to sleep mode after 10 min.  Run appliances in energy savings mode.  And a 1.3 cub ft Buck stove insert.  Last month was very cold and the electric bill for a %100 electric house at 5,200 sq ft was $160.   Not bad.  My neighbors with similar sized homes had $400+ electric bills.


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## Hank195 (Dec 29, 2013)

We installed a GE Geospring last year and have been very happy with the water heater.  The unit is in an unheated/unfinished basement (wood insert/electric heat upstairs) here in western CT; probably similar to your conditions.  Our unit runs in heat pump mode most of the winter but switches to resistance electric during very cold spells (typically when the basement temperature is below 45F).  It is also great in summer, keeping the basement a bit cooler and almost completely eliminates the previous need to run a dehumidifier (was able to plumb the condensate drain to the washer drain so no pump was required)  I think you will be appy with the wataer heater - I was also glad to see that these are now made in the US, a few years ago I had looked at their previous model and was sad to see that GE chosen to manufacture their new "high tech water heater" in China.  Understand they have constructed a new plant here to build them.


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

Another potential benefit of using the GeoSpring -- less mineral build-up in the water heater.
We have hard water.  Our old electrical resistance water heater used to "soften" our hot water by accumulating minerals on the heating elements and in the tank bottom.
When used in HP mode the GeoSpring heats using coils that surround the tank and operate at much lower temps than resistance elements. 
We've been running our GeoSpring in HP mode for nearly three years now and haven't had problems with mineral accumulation yet.
Of course those minerals may now be passing on to our fixtures but we haven't noticed a significant difference there.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

These things are still pretty noisy, no? They also need to be in a large space so no closets as I recall.


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> These things are still pretty noisy, no? They also need to be in a large space so no closets as I recall.


Mines pretty noisy, kind of a high-pitched whirring noise. 
Yep, no closets or small rooms.
I've always thought a great place for them would be a space that opens to either an attached garage or basement on one side and house conditioned space on the other side.
In the winter open the side towards the basement or garage as long as the temps there are above about 50.  
In the summer open the house side and let the thing cool and dry your house. You'd have to consider the noise for summer operation though.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

They're getting closer to releasing more of the reverse cycle chillers which is basicly a split version of a heat pump water heater that allows that noisy compressor to be outside and to use outside "heat" for your water. I can't believe how slow we are to use the awesome mini-split style inverter heat pump technology to heat water.


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2013)

Recovery is too slow for a heat pump unless there is a storage tank. This is primarily an American tradition. Most of the world uses demand heaters instead.


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## chance135 (Jan 1, 2014)

I got my Geospring installed on Dec 30th and so far I'm impressed with the unit.  I really wasn't sure what to expect since it is installed in my unheated, unfinished basement in Southern Maine so the temps down there are pretty chilly in the winter. I figured either way it cost me what a traditional HWH ( REBATES!)  would so why not try it. I had usable hot water 30 minutes after flipping the breaker and not long after that the heat pump took over.  Pretty cool considering my basement is 48-50 degrees right now. Added bonuses for us are the dehumidifying and the fact that in heat pump mode is only pulls about 500 watts so my generator can run in in case of an outage.  Time will tell on the longevity of this unit but I did buy the extended warranty just in case. Oh, and I can't hear it at all from my living space. Its about as noisy as a dehumidifier set on low.


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## semipro (Jan 1, 2014)

chance135 said:


> and the fact that in heat pump mode is only pulls about 500 watts so my generator can run in in case of an outage


Excellent.  I hadn't considered that.  
We were able to run our old electric resistance HWH using the generator before but had to make sure other higher load equipment was disabled while heating water.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2014)

Is that 500watts 240vac? No smaller generators put out 240vac that I know of.


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## Highbeam (Jan 1, 2014)

begreen said:


> Is that 500watts 240vac? No smaller generators put out 240vac that I know of.


 
I chose my champion 3500 watt genset in large part due to the 240 output. I've never seen a smaller output genny with 240. The nice inverter sets are extremely expensive and high output when they make 240.


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## begreen (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm not certain that your genset would be able to handle it. Assuming the water is cold it is going to go to full heating power not the lowest.  The spec for the heat pump load is listed as identical as for the elements. 500-4500w. Based on these specs I would want a genset that could handle the full heater load. that would probably be a 6-6.5KW unit at least.


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## woodgeek (Jan 1, 2014)

No Problem....buy a 120V to 240V step up transformer!

http://www.220-electronics.com/voltage-converters-transformers/step-up-step-down-2.html


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## semipro (Jan 1, 2014)

begreen said:


> I'm not certain that your genset would be able to handle it. Assuming the water is cold it is going to go to full heating power not the lowest.  The spec for the heat pump load is listed as identical as for the elements. 500-4500w. Based on these specs I would want a genset that could handle the full heater load. that would probably be a 6-6.5KW unit at least.
> 
> View attachment 122445


There is pretty good info here on the Geospring based on lab testing: http://www.bpa.gov/energy/n/emerging_technology/pdf/GE_Prelim_HPWH_report_rev2a.pdf
It looks like the unit normally draws about 300-700 watts in the "eheat" mode (HP only).  However, if temps at the evaporator get too low, which may allow icing to occur, a resistance element may kick in and raise usage to 4500 watts.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> No Problem....buy a 120V to 240V step up transformer!
> 
> http://www.220-electronics.com/voltage-converters-transformers/step-up-step-down-2.html


 
I get very nervous when the supplier doesn't know that the US uses 120 and 240 volts. Not 220 and 110. It's a detail often harmlessly overlooked but when you are selling converters and transformers and your company name screws this up, well, I'm not willing to risk my equipment.


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## woodgeek (Jan 2, 2014)

I would put a meter on it before I tried it....transformers are pretty simple dumb things....I would figure it is ~2X.  And would smooth out the high freq glitches.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2014)

semipro said:


> There is pretty good info here on the Geospring based on lab testing: http://www.bpa.gov/energy/n/emerging_technology/pdf/GE_Prelim_HPWH_report_rev2a.pdf
> It looks like the unit normally draws about 300-700 watts in the "eheat" mode (HP only).  However, if temps at the evaporator get too low, which may allow icing to occur, a resistance element may kick in and raise usage to 4500 watts.


Thanks for that link semipro! That's helpful info. I'm considering one of these but 55db running noise is a bit of a deterrent. That's about as loud as our genset on idle.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I would put a meter on it before I tried it....transformers are pretty simple dumb things....I would figure it is ~2X.  And would smooth out the high freq glitches.


A transformer is not going to bypass the power requirement. 4500w @240v = 9000w@120v.


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## woodgeek (Jan 2, 2014)

begreen said:


> A transformer is not going to bypass the power requirement. 4500w @240v = 9000w@120v.



Um, I think we have our wires crossed.  I think I can put a geospring needing 500W at 240V, call it 2A, on a >500W rated step up transformer (cost ~$30) plugged into a 120V genny, and it will only pull 4A. Heck, I could run my 80 gallon AO Smith HPWH monster (aka 'optimus prime') on my Harbor Fright genny!


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2014)

How do you stop it from going into defrost mode and drawing full 4500 watts?


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## woodgeek (Jan 2, 2014)

HPWHs don't have defrost cycles.  The compressor shuts down below about 45°F, so no frost ever forms.  Above that temp, in pure HP mode the element would never be energized.

Sadly, it looks like my HPWH wants up to 900W, so the HF genny would be a little taxed.


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## semipro (Jan 2, 2014)

The link posted above mentioned additional current loading when temps at the evaporator fell too low.  Whether this occurs because the compressor shuts down and one of the elements lights off or for some other reason I don't recall.  That info may be covered in the lab report at that link. 
I guess one could install an override switch that would prevent the resistance elements from engaging while on the generator.  If the evaporator ices the HWH would just stop heating but wouldn't overtax the generator.


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## woodgeek (Jan 3, 2014)

I've read those ecotope reports too....great for tech minded users of HPWHs....I and seem to recall reading there that NONE of the HPWHs have defrost cycles/controls.  That is why they all just shut down the compressor at low temps.  For the GE, I thought it was 50°F. For my AO Smith, its 45°F.  The report also said that the AOS had a much higher fan CFM per compressor ton that the GE.  This makes it noisier, v slightly more eff, reduces dehumidifcation, and allows it to run to lower temps without coil icing (explaining the lower lockout temp).  This all jibes with my experience of the AOS unit.


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## legrandice (Jan 4, 2014)

My heater arrived!  




I am putting this where the 120 gal storage tank for my solar hot water was.  That tank is heavy!









Running a new circuit for this as well.

Had company tonight and I have to work tomorrow so it will be a few days.


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## DBoon (Jan 6, 2014)

Congratulations!  I took an old (probably 25+ years old) 80 gallon tank out a few years back and I couldn't believe how heavy that thing was.


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## legrandice (Jan 12, 2014)

Installed and running!  I kept the oil system hooked up so I can open a few valves and use it as a backup.

Only negative so far is the cooler temps in the basement. This is due to not having the hot boiler all the time, and the cooling from the ge.  

Currently running in heat pump only mode.  

This summer I need to remove the three 150 lb solar panels from the roof.  That should be fun.


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## begreen (Jan 12, 2014)

Looks good. How much of a temp drop are you noticing? How is the noise level?


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## Highbeam (Jan 13, 2014)

I like pex and I use pex but is it code compliant and safe to run the pex right onto the water heater? I thought it had to be metal pipes for a certain distance.


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## legrandice (Jan 13, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I like pex and I use pex but is it code compliant and safe to run the pex right onto the water heater? I thought it had to be metal pipes for a certain distance.



Good question.  I am basing this install on 3 water heaters that were permit installed by a plumber at properties that I own.  They were all done the same way.  Would be real easy to change if necessary.


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## legrandice (Jan 13, 2014)

begreen said:


> Looks good. How much of a temp drop are you noticing? How is the noise level?



Noise is not a problem, sure is much quieter than the oil burner.

Not enough time yet to have an accurate number for the temp drop.  The output of the heater seems to be about 10 degrees less than room temp.  It ran about 10 hours on heat pump only mode to come to temp the first time.


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## brogsie (Jan 13, 2014)

Looks good legrandice. Are those Shark Bites for the joints?
I have used them with no problem but sparingly. My plumber doesn't like them but he uses the caps for temp disconnects.
I think you will like the water heater especially in the summer. My basement gets pretty cold. I have a ductless split for heating so the oil boiler is sitting cold and not warming the basement.


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## jharkin (Jan 15, 2014)

begreen said:


> A transformer is not going to bypass the power requirement. 4500w @240v = 9000w@120v.



BeGreen I think you have you watts and amps mixed up. 4500 watts is 4500 watts. If you double the voltage the amps get cut in half but watts are unchanged.

P = I*V


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2014)

Ah you're right, the amperage will double.


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## woodgeek (Jan 15, 2014)

So running a geospring HPWH on even a small genny is possible with a $30 transformer.


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## jeffesonm (Jan 17, 2014)

I've been loving the GE Geospring... it's in my unheated, unfinished basement and as best I can tell it stays in heat pump mode.  Granted it's just me and the Ms., so our usage is pretty low.  Hardly noticed anything on the electric bill.  I live out in the sticks and it's pretty quiet out here, and you can just barely hear the fan run.  The 1957 oil boiler you can hear from down the street....


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## jdp1152 (Jan 18, 2014)

Hank195 said:


> We installed a GE Geospring last year and have been very happy with the water heater.  The unit is in an unheated/unfinished basement (wood insert/electric heat upstairs) here in western CT; probably similar to your conditions.  Our unit runs in heat pump mode most of the winter but switches to resistance electric during very cold spells (typically when the basement temperature is below 45F).  It is also great in summer, keeping the basement a bit cooler and almost completely eliminates the previous need to run a dehumidifier (was able to plumb the condensate drain to the washer drain so no pump was required)  I think you will be appy with the wataer heater - I was also glad to see that these are now made in the US, a few years ago I had looked at their previous model and was sad to see that GE chosen to manufacture their new "high tech water heater" in China.  Understand they have constructed a new plant here to build them.



45 is about my cutoff as well.  I just kick it over to hybrid mode when I see a cold spell coming.  No complaints after a full year with it thus far.  It makes some noise, but mines in my basement so I never hear it.  It drains to a washtub down there so no need for condensate pump.  Can't say I've noticed too much difference in humidity level down there though, but it's 3200 sq ft of unfinished basement and we don't use too much hot water.


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## HybridFyre (Jan 19, 2014)

jdp1152 said:


> 45 is about my cutoff as well.  I just kick it over to hybrid mode when I see a cold spell coming.  No complaints after a full year with it thus far.  It makes some noise, but mines in my basement so I never hear it.  It drains to a washtub down there so no need for condensate pump.  Can't say I've noticed too much difference in humidity level down there though, but it's 3200 sq ft of unfinished basement and we don't use too much hot water.



Holy crap you have a 3,200 sq ft basement??!


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## tom dee (Jan 19, 2014)

legrandice said:


> My heater arrived!
> View attachment 122880
> 
> 
> ...


what happened to solar system?? To cold in Hadley Mass for solar?


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## jdp1152 (Jan 19, 2014)

HybridFyre said:


> Holy crap you have a 3,200 sq ft basement??!



Forgot to deduct the garage, so more like 2800-2900.


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## legrandice (Jan 19, 2014)

tom dee said:


> what happened to solar system?? To cold in Hadley Mass for solar?



The Solar system was installed in 1986.  I purchased the house in 2005 and the system worked very well until the tank started leaking.  A new tank was too expensive and the panels don't have much life in them. We had free hot water about 5 months of the year with five people living in the house.  Just needed to plan out hot water usage a bit.


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