# Rear flue exit VS Top flue exit



## frankm1960

All things being equal is a wood stove installed with a rear flue exit any less efficient or inferior in any way to the same wood stove installed with a top flue exit ?

I have a fireplace insert (see my avatar) which I'm considering replacing with a wood stove and of course I would need to have a rear flue exit to make it work without modifying my chimney. To me the rear exit is not the preferred way. The top exit seems way more practical and efficient but I really don't know.

The stove I was thinking of getting is the jotul F3 CB which has both rear and top exit options and seems just large enough to heat my 1250 sq ft main floor. I was thinking of moving my insert to the basement and using it down there to heat that area up. Or maybe I should get a bigger wood stove and install it in the basement and heat the whole place up with it? Not sure.

Any ideas ?


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## fox9988

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/another-woodstock-keystone-install.66069/#post-849450

Post #24

If rear vent was my only option, I would do it without reserve. But, I think top vent will draft better and you get a few BTU's off the connector pipe. Many say heat with your stove and not your pipe. If I'm blowing unnecessary BTU's up the chimney, I want them back. If that means sweeping the chimney more often, so be it.


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## frankm1960

fox9988 said:


> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/another-woodstock-keystone-install.66069/#post-849450
> 
> Post #24
> 
> If rear vent was my only option, I would do it without reserve. But, I think top vent will draft better and you get a few BTU's off the connector pipe. Many say heat with your stove and not your pipe. If I'm blowing unnecessary BTU's up the chimney, I want them back. If that means sweeping the chimney more often, so be it.



"...heat with stove and not your pipe..." ... how does one control that  I wonder ?

Aside from that do you think replacing my fireplace insert with a good quality wood stove is worth the effort and expense ? Will I get more heat or is going up the chimney too ? 

My dad has a wood stove in the basement in his rec room and it seems to throw way more heat than my insert, mind you it's a smaller area than my upstairs open area. I do have a blower on my insert but you stand about 8ft away and  you can hardly feel the heat even though I have it as hot as I can get it (can hear the steel box clank sometimes). My dad can throw a few sticks in his stove and in minutes it's to hot to be in the rec room it seems... and there's no blower on it. It's like my insert gets hot but that heat is likely going up the chimney ? Hard to know sometimes. I'm going to call in some local experts  but I'd like to get educated on wood burning and available options somewhat first.


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## mellow

I would recommend a rear vent freestanding over an insert any day if you have the clearance to combustibles and the hearth area to support it.  It will heat better (due to not being IN the fireplace) and does not require a blower.

An insert to me is a last resort heating device, you have the fireplace but don't have the room for a freestanding then an insert will have to work.


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## firefighterjake

frankm1960 said:


> All things being equal is a wood stove installed with a rear flue exit any less efficient or inferior in any way to the same wood stove installed with a top flue exit ?
> 
> I have a fireplace insert (see my avatar) which I'm considering replacing with a wood stove and of course I would need to have a rear flue exit to make it work without modifying my chimney. To me the rear exit is not the preferred way. The top exit seems way more practical and efficient but I really don't know.
> 
> The stove I was thinking of getting is the jotul F3 CB which has both rear and top exit options and seems just large enough to heat my 1250 sq ft main floor. I was thinking of moving my insert to the basement and using it down there to heat that area up. Or maybe I should get a bigger wood stove and install it in the basement and heat the whole place up with it? Not sure.
> 
> Any ideas ?


 

Probably depends some on the stove . . . if the F3 is anything like the F500 the rear exit and top exit are not all that drastic when it comes to changing the air flow/draft . . . I would guess we're talking inches since the part fits in the same place. If I had my druthers I would go with top exit, but I honestly don't think in most cases it would make much of a difference in terms of draft and stove performance . . . more of an issue if fitting it into an alcove or a particular set up.


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## firefighterjake

fox9988 said:


> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/another-woodstock-keystone-install.66069/#post-849450
> 
> Post #24
> 
> If rear vent was my only option, I would do it without reserve. But, I think top vent will draft better and you get a few BTU's off the connector pipe. Many say heat with your stove and not your pipe. If I'm blowing unnecessary BTU's up the chimney, I want them back. If that means sweeping the chimney more often, so be it.


 

I've said something like that before . . . usually referring to folks however who are sticking on Magic Heaters or similar heat scavenging devices to steel heat from the flue which can in theory (maybe reality) affect the draft, creosote levels, etc.

Most modern stoves are designed to throw out the majority of the heat in the stove with the use of cats or secondary burners . . . the stove pipe will give out some heat as well and it shouldn't be scoffed at . . . but adding a device like a Magic Heater that can make a mess of things is not the answer. As for top vent vs. rear vent . . . I don't think it would make that great a difference in terms of BTUs gained or loss.


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## Charles1981

I have my stove setup rear vent. There is almost 4 feet of horizontal run before it hits the clean out T and goes up 26 feet. 

Wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Nick Mystic

When I went from an insert to a  Jotul F 600 freestanding stove I had to use the rear vent set up to get inside my fireplace to a T-connector and then straight up my chimney. I don't have any problems with getting a good draft and I think the T-connector adds an extra layer of protection from creosote sloughing off the flue liner and clogging or impeding the smoke as it exits the stove. Anything coming down the flue ends up in the bottom of the T-connector several inches below the connection to the flue collar. Since the stove is designed to use either a top or rear connection I believe the manufacturer factors both methods of hooking up a flue to the stove to assure it will perform properly.


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## frankm1960

mellow said:


> I would recommend a rear vent freestanding over an insert any day if you have the clearance to combustibles and the hearth area to support it.  It will heat better (due to not being IN the fireplace) and does not require a blower.
> 
> An insert to me is a last resort heating device, you have the fireplace but don't have the room for a freestanding then an insert will have to work.



Good point. Maybe that's why someone put it in, found out not enough clearance for regular wood stove. I just assumed there would be enough clearance since there is a fire place there. I'll have to measure it out. Thanks for the tip.


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## frankm1960

Nick Mystic said:


> When I went from an insert to a  Jotul F 600 freestanding stove I had to use the rear vent set up to get inside my fireplace to a T-connector and then straight up my chimney. I don't have any problems with getting a good draft and I think the T-connector adds an extra layer of protection from creosote sloughing off the flue liner and clogging or impeding the smoke as it exits the stove. Anything coming down the flue ends up in the bottom of the T-connector several inches below the connection to the flue collar. Since the stove is designed to use either a top or rear connection I believe the manufacturer factors both methods of hooking up a flue to the stove to assure it will perform properly.



That's good news  I was thinking of using a T connector as well. I wonder if a person could get a T connector so the "bottom" of the T opens for easier clean out. I guess to clean out an installation as the one you have I'm assuming you have to disconnect and move the stove out from the fireplace ? The F-600 is almost 200lbs heavier than the F3 CB model.


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## frankm1960

Charles1981 said:


> I have my stove setup rear vent. There is almost 4 feet of horizontal run before it hits the clean out T and goes up 26 feet.
> 
> Wouldn't have it any other way.



4ft horizontal run seems very long. I wonder if there's any set limits on how much a person can run it horizontally. It's definitely good news for me though. I don't think I'll need to run it more than a foot or two I'm guessing.


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## weatherguy

frankm1960 said:


> 4ft horizontal run seems very long. I wonder if there's any set limits on how much a person can run it horizontally. It's definitely good news for me though. I don't think I'll need to run it more than a foot or two I'm guessing.


 I'm going to do the same thing next year, replace my insert with a free stander, just need to build out my hearth 6 inches. Your father probably has a radiant stove while your insert is convective so you're going to feel the heat more with a radiant stove. As long as you size it right you should be fine.


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## frankm1960

firefighterjake said:


> Probably depends some on the stove . . . if the F3 is anything like the F500 the rear exit and top exit are not all that drastic when it comes to changing the air flow/draft . . . I would guess we're talking inches since the part fits in the same place. If I had my druthers I would go with top exit, but I honestly don't think in most cases it would make much of a difference in terms of draft and stove performance . . . more of an issue if fitting it into an alcove or a particular set up.



I would go top exit too but in my case it's so much easier to use a rear flue exit as there would be significant work for me to modify the existing fireplace to acommadate top flue exit. If there's no appreciable difference in efficiency and safety then I think I'm good to go from at least choosing between rear or top flue exit goes.

Thanks for the insight.


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## frankm1960

weatherguy said:


> I'm going to do the same thing next year, replace my insert with a free stander, just need to build out my hearth 6 inches. Your father probably has a radiant stove while your insert is convective so you're going to feel the heat more with a radiant stove. As long as you size it right you should be fine.



I'm doing ok with my insert, no complaints sort of, but can't help thinking I'm losing a lot of heat compared to a free standing stove. My dad has the jotul F3 CB free standing wood stove, it's almost 30 yrs old I think... I'll correct this if it's not the case. It cranks out the heat but hard to compare with mine as his area to heat is smaller than the area I'm trying to heat. My insert will take an hour to increase the temp by one deg 25 ft from the insert ( roughly middle of the house ). When it's really cold out (-20 or so) it's basically burn wood to keep the central heat from  coming on, house is under 65deg so it's still a bit chilly.I'd have to burn real aggressive to heat the house from 65 to 70 and it would take hours. To me that just doesn't seam right.

Good luck with your insert replacement. I'm intending to replace mine in the summer if all goes well and I can afford it.


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## weatherguy

Are you considering a Jotul Frank? They have a couple stoves I really like but I also love the Progress Hybrid


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## begreen

frankm1960 said:


> 4ft horizontal run seems very long. I wonder if there's any set limits on how much a person can run it horizontally. It's definitely good news for me though. I don't think I'll need to run it more than a foot or two I'm guessing.


It is. One needs a good uphill pitch on the horiz. section from the stove to the chimney and good draft to support this. 

Some stoves are fussier than others about rear venting. The Castine for example is a shallow stove with a big door. In milder weather (above 45F) we would get a bit of smoke spillage  when opening the door carefully. We were warned about this when the stove was installed with rear vent instead of top vent. I never hooked it up top vent but suspect it would have fixed this minor issue. This was with a 20ft tall flue system.


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## Nick Mystic

With my Jotul F 600 I don't have much room to get behind it to remove the bottom cap on the T-connector for cleaning. However, there is a big top plate on the F 600 that is attached with just two bolts. Once that is removed you have ready access to the top of the baffle for inspection and cleaning and it's an easy reach into the T-connector for scooping out any creosote/ash that drops down from a sweep.


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## begreen

That's exactly why that top is removable. In Europe they usually leave the bolts off that top plate once the stove is in place.


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## fox9988

> "...heat with stove and not your pipe..." ... how does one control that I wonder ?



Double wall pipe usually. It keeps the heat in the chimney, helps to prevent creosote condensation. I have 8 ft of single wall pipe + 8 ft of class A. Surface temp is usually ~125F at the ceiling. I like the extra BTU's. I will and do sweep as needed so it's not a hazard/problem for me. Each to his own.


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## frankm1960

weatherguy said:


> Are you considering a Jotul Frank? They have a couple stoves I really like but I also love the Progress Hybrid



I am considering a Jotul. They seem to have the experience on their side and proven products, the Jotul F3 CB as one example which I've seen working many times over the years. I haven't heard of the Progress Hybrid but it sounds interesting and I'll google it to learn more.


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## frankm1960

fox9988 said:


> Double wall pipe usually. It keeps the heat in the chimney, helps to prevent creosote condensation. I have 8 ft of single wall pipe + 8 ft of class A. Surface temp is usually ~125F at the ceiling. I like the extra BTU's. I will and do sweep as needed so it's not a hazard/problem for me. Each to his own.



I just learned about the double wall pipe yesterday. It makes sense. Keeps the gases hot so they can escape and not condense due to huge temp diff between pipe and room? The rapid cooling of the single pipe can cause rusting I've heard, unless of course you use SS all the way. If I rear vent my stove (which I likely will) I won't have any stove pipe so I'll lose those BTU's.


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## frankm1960

Nick Mystic said:


> With my Jotul F 600 I don't have much room to get behind it to remove the bottom cap on the T-connector for cleaning. However, there is a big top plate on the F 600 that is attached with just two bolts. Once that is removed you have ready access to the top of the baffle for inspection and cleaning and it's an easy reach into the T-connector for scooping out any creosote/ash that drops down from a sweep.



That sounds good. I'd love to see what all that looks like. I didn't realize the T connector comes with a cap... but then that does make sense. I'd love to be able to have a set up where by I can reach in and remove that cap without moving the stove, and also be able to slide some kind of container in to catch the debris that falls down the pipe when cleaning. The jotul 600 is way to big for my application but maybe not if I burn softwood during the cold days. I read here somewhere it maybe advantageous to have a bigger stove because then you have the option of building both small and large fires.


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## frankm1960

begreen said:


> It is. One needs a good uphill pitch on the horiz. section from the stove to the chimney and good draft to support this.
> 
> Some stoves are fussier than others about rear venting. The Castine for example is a shallow stove with a big door. In milder weather (above 45F) we would get a bit of smoke spillage  when opening the door carefully. We were warned about this when the stove was installed with rear vent instead of top vent. I never hooked it up top vent but suspect it would have fixed this minor issue. This was with a 20ft tall flue system.



I get some smoke spillage as well, not so much right now as it's -19 outside. So that spillage is likely from my insert having what I think is a rear exit flue? I'll know more this summer when I clean it out for the first time and if lucky sell it and replace it with a free standing stove. I have not used the stove since I got the SS liner installed many years ago. I disabled the insert that whole time as I rented my house out while I was away. It's likely due for a cleaning.


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## Highbeam

A stove designed to use either a rear or top flue certainly has made a compromise. The compromise is wasting enough heat up the flue to allow a rear flue to work well enough. I propose that a stove that top vents and top vents only can be more efficient since the engineers don't need to purposely waste btu this way.

Heat, sorry, hot air rises and so a vertical flue is always the most efficient setup with regards to maximized draft with minimum heat wasted up the stack.

In my current home, two stoves ago, I removed a nice lopi insert and demolished a masonry chimney to install my current stove and vertical flue system. Never regretted losing the masonry.


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## weatherguy

frankm1960 said:


> I am considering a Jotul. They seem to have the experience on their side and proven products, the Jotul F3 CB as one example which I've seen working many times over the years. I haven't heard of the Progress Hybrid but it sounds interesting and I'll google it to learn more.


 
 The Jotul F3 CB also has a short leg kit if your fireplace doesn't have the height, not sure about the larger ones.
The Progress Hybrid is the Woodstock stove. Might be too much for your house but the Fireview might be just right, they're soapstone stoves so if your not into that you'd probably cross them off your list.


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## Hardrockmaple

frankm1960 said:


> I am considering a Jotul. They seem to have the experience on their side and proven products, the Jotul F3 CB as one example which I've seen working many times over the years. I haven't heard of the Progress Hybrid but it sounds interesting and I'll google it to learn more.



Be aware that the Woodstock stoves are not ULC listed. You and I may not care they are not certified for use in Canada, but, my insurance company would not send me a letter saying they would give me a pass if there were ever an issue.


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## frankm1960

I recently learned that my fireplace insert was installed without the chimney being sealed off. There's a big gaping hole where heat from the stove can pass by the liner that's there. I didn't need to take the stove out to see this. I just took off the trim around the stove and shone a flash light up there and had a good look.  Could this be why I don't seem to get much heat out of my stove ? Shouldn't the chimney be sealed off or does that depend on the stove/insert ? I would think it should be sealed off with some kind of non combustible material to prevent heat loss ? The pic is the best I can do without removing the stove.

The pic shows the left hand side. It's the same big gap on the right hand side. Tons of heat could easily pass up there.


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## Highbeam

frankm1960 said:


> I recently learned that my fireplace insert was installed without the chimney being sealed off. There's a big gaping hole where heat from the stove can pass by the liner that's there. I didn't need to take the stove out to see this. I just took off the trim around the stove and shone a flash light up there and had a good look.  Could this be why I don't seem to get much heat out of my stove ? Shouldn't the chimney be sealed off or does that depend on the stove/insert ? I would think it should be sealed off with some kind of non combustible material to prevent heat loss ? The pic is the best I can do without removing the stove.
> 
> The pic shows the left hand side. It's the same big gap on the right hand side. Tons of heat could easily pass up there.


 
It's fairly common and not as big of a deal as some on this site would have you believe provided the top is sealed well. What happens is that apce between the liner and the old chimney warms up. It's going to happen anyway.

A blockoff plate is what is recommended at the top of your fireplace.


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## frankm1960

It is well sealed at the top of the chimney. There's cap that's secured in place by screws and silicon caulking. So I would think that's a good seal at the top.
I have seen some documentation and manuals that indicated the old fireplace flue should be sealed near the stove and they don't mention sealing at the top though. I wonder why they wouldn't specify that you could seal it on either end or both ends. Just throwing that out there. Here's what the cap looks like. If it's useful info anyone I could take another pic showing just how that cap is sealed to the chimney crown when I get up there to clean the chimney.

Would it be worth sealing it at the bottom as well ?


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## frankm1960

Highbeam said:


> It's fairly common and not as big of a deal as some on this site would have you believe provided the top is sealed well. What happens is that apce between the liner and the old chimney warms up. It's going to happen anyway.
> 
> A blockoff plate is what is recommended at the top of your fireplace.



Is a block off plate the same thing as what they call a "non combustible seal" ? I could just fabricate something out of heavy sheet metal and fasten in place somehow ?


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## bholler

Well I think it is a pretty big deal when it comes to heat loss.  I would do an insulated block off plate for sure. As well as insulate behind the insert.


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## begreen

Here is how to fabricate and install. The sheet metal gauge doesn't have to be heavy. 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/why-damper-seal-is-needed/


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## weatherguy

I noticed a difference once I put my block off plate in, I put roxul then made a plate out of sheet metal from Home Depot. Why heat the masonry flue, no ones gonna benefit from that unless there's some mice living up there.


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## Highbeam

weatherguy said:


> I noticed a difference once I put my block off plate in, I put roxul then made a plate out of sheet metal from Home Depot. Why heat the masonry flue, no ones gonna benefit from that unless there's some mice living up there.


 
Your 1000 degree (on the BK only 500) liner is in there, you're warming it up whether you like it or not. What you don't want is a flow of heated room air into the fireplace and out the top. Plug one end or the other and that flow stops.


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## frankm1960

begreen said:


> Here is how to fabricate and install. The sheet metal gauge doesn't have to be heavy.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/why-damper-seal-is-needed/



Thank you kindly for that link.


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## frankm1960

weatherguy said:


> I noticed a difference once I put my block off plate in, I put roxul then made a plate out of sheet metal from Home Depot. Why heat the masonry flue, no ones gonna benefit from that unless there's some mice living up there.



Is your chimney blocked off at the top ?  I know mine is because I re-installed it after I did some chimney crown maintenance. I screwed it back on and applied a couple thick beads of silicon caulking all around to really seal it. The original installer had used silicon caulking to seal it as well so I did the same... but I must admit I thought it was sealed to prevent water from coming in... I wasn't thinking of blocking the flow of hot air when the stove was in use.


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## frankm1960

bholler said:


> Well I think it is a pretty big deal when it comes to heat loss.  I would do an insulated block off plate for sure. As well as insulate behind the insert.


What kind of insulation could I use that wouldn't melt or go up in flames ?


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## frankm1960

Here's something else I noticed with my insert... how the heck do you connect the liner to it ? There's no room to see the connection let alone get your hands in there to connect them. This insert was installed by the previous owner and I did pay to have some one come in and re-connect the line to the insert and generally bring the whole system up to code. I wasn't around to see how he was able to make that connection. Right now I have the stove pulled out about an inch or so just so I could see what was going on. The liner is pretty flexible it seems and I don't think I damaged the connection. It would be nice though if I could reconnect it myself somehow just so I could confirm it's still good. Any one here install an insert before know how this is done ?


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## bholler

well we use ceramic wool insulation allot of guys here use roxul both work fine roxul is easier to get and a little cheaper but ceramic wool is ul listed for chimney insulation.  although that shouldn't matter for a block off plate just for insulating the liner.


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## frankm1960

I fabricated and installed a block off plate and insulated around the liner, essentially filling up the area between the old clay flue and liner with roxul. The metal plate I installed serves to keep the insulation from falling down. It's not a perfect air seal  but blocks it off quite well.

Since installing it I have learned that insulating around a stainless steel liner is against the code where I am, it wouldn't be insurable. The reason, I'm told, is the liner will over heat, expand and potentially crack... something like that. It could also just weaken in that area where I insulated and eventually break off during cleaning process.

Anyone have any comments on this ?


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## begreen

Seems like someone is blowing smoke. Have them provide the code that says this. Insulating around a stainless liner is very common. Kaowool insulation jackets are standard and recommended by major sweeps organizations. Poured in insulation is also common. Why would Roxul be any different?


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## frankm1960

begreen said:


> Seems like someone is blowing smoke. Have them provide the code that says this. Insulating around a stainless liner is very common. Kaowool insulation jackets are standard and recommended by major sweeps organizations. Poured in insulation is also common. Why would Roxul be any different?



I didn't ask him for the code but I'm looking for it now. He didn't say roxul is the problem persay, just that insulating my SS liner with any type of insulation in general is a problem. The insulation causes the liner to over heat in the area where the insulation is. Over heating apparently weakens the liner.


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## bholler

frankm1960 said:


> I didn't ask him for the code but I'm looking for it now. He didn't say roxul is the problem persay, just that insulating my SS liner with any type of insulation in general is a problem. The insulation causes the liner to over heat in the area where the insulation is. Over heating apparently weakens the liner.



actually liner insulation is recommended by just about all of the liner manufacturers and they are tested that way for their ul listings in order to get a zero clearance rating to the outside masonry.  As far a roxul goes it is not ul lised for chimney insulation it is approved for blockoff plate insulation though.  The ul listing and manufacturers instructions will trump any local code so it will not be a problem with code although i doubt that there is and code anywhere saying that you can not insulate it


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## frankm1960

bholler said:


> actually liner insulation is recommended by just about all of the liner manufacturers and they are tested that way for their ul listings in order to get a zero clearance rating to the outside masonry.  As far a roxul goes it is not ul lised for chimney insulation it is approved for blockoff plate insulation though.  The ul listing and manufacturers instructions will trump any local code so it will not be a problem with code although i doubt that there is and code anywhere saying that you can not insulate it



The type of liner I'm talking about are those "flexible" stainless steel liners that can be slid down an old clay flew... great stuff for installing inserts into old brick fireplace... is that what you mean by liner ? I'm not sure of all the products that are out there is why I ask. In any case this guy I talked to seemed to think and insulation around these liners is not a good thing. I'll keep digging.

Here's the type of liner I believe I have, may not be the same brand but in all likely hood the very same..
http://www.kent.ca/kbs/en/search.jsp?_dyncharset=utf-8&_dynSessConf=-7518348841066773341&question=stainless steel chimney liner&_D:question= &/atg/commerce/search/catalog/QueryFormHandler.searchRequest.pageSize=10&_D:/atg/commerce/search/catalog/QueryFormHandler.searchRequest.pageSize= &/atg/commerce/search/catalog/QueryFormHandler.searchRequest.saveRequest=true&_D:/atg/commerce/search/catalog/QueryFormHandler.searchRequest.saveRequest= &/atg/commerce/search/catalog/QueryFormHandler.search=&_D:/atg/commerce/search/catalog/QueryFormHandler.search= &_DARGS=/kbs/en/includes/header.jsp.searchForm

EDIT: You are right about the insulation wrap. I did a quick look up and found the following.
http://www.selkirkcorp.com/WorkArea/showcontent.aspx?id=7348
Section 8.4 if you're curious.

So having a little roxul around my block off plate is likely not going to do any damage to my liner. The guy I was talking to either doesn't know (he's a local dealer) or is blowing smoke.

I'm glad I came here and asked about it.


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## bholler

Yes that is the type i am referring to also i install 40 to 50 a year and insulate almost every one according to the manufacturers instructions.  If you use the proper insulation that is speced by the manufacturer there will not be any problem they are all flexible enough to allow for the expansion and contraction of the stainless.  Even the pour in type stays soft enough to allow for it.  I do not know about canadian code specifically but from what i have seen it is pretty similar to us code in this area and the ulc listings are usually the same or slightly more stringent.


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## bholler

http://www.djsonline.com/linerinstall.pdf

here is a link to selkirks installation instructions it clearly says that insulation can be used in us and Canada in order to get zero clearance to the exterior of the masonry.  Selkirk does not allow for pour in insulation just their wrap is approved.


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## begreen

I have never heard of a good stainless liner failing from having an insulation blanket. Sound like the dealer's salesperson was selling cars last week.


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## frankm1960

I think he saw me coming  

I checked the selkirk site. I'm convinced the roxul insulation around the block off plate is not going to cause any problems.

I'll light it up monday and see if the block off plate and insulation was worth the effort  Fingers crossed.

I'll post my findings.


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## frankm1960

frankm1960 said:


> I think he saw me coming
> 
> I checked the selkirk site. I'm convinced the roxul insulation around the block off plate is not going to cause any problems.
> 
> I'll light it up monday and see if the block off plate and insulation was worth the effort  Fingers crossed.
> 
> I'll post my findings.



Well I finally did a burn test. All the work to install and insulate around my new block off plate has not really paid off. There is no significant difference in terms or radiant heat coming off the stove. The stove works as before.

So I'm looking at replacing my insert with a regular wood stove this year or next.
Thanks everyone for all the comments and suggestions. I did learn a lot.


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## bholler

Those changes will not give you any more radiant heat but they will reduce the ammount of heat loss and keep the fife box around that insert warmer which will give more convective heat.


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## frankm1960

Yes that makes sense. I may haul the stove out again and seal the block off plate with some sealant. I may have been a bit sloppy installing that block off plate.


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## BrotherBart

Yeah nothing is going to give more radiant heat from something that isn't sitting out in the room. The idea of the block off plate with an insert is hotter air coming out of the shroud when the blower is running. An insert will never be a radiant heater. No more than my freestanding stove inside a fireplace will.


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## frankm1960

You just gave me an idea. Why couldn't I haul the insert out of the fireplace and set it into the room just like a free standing stove ? I would have to modify the front of the fire place and add a bit of pipe but I would have to do all that to install a regular free standing wood stove anyway. Maybe I'd get more radiant heat from the stove and possibly not even have to replace it. Any thoughts on this idea ?


----------



## Grisu

frankm1960 said:


> You just gave me an idea. Why couldn't I haul the insert out of the fireplace and set it into the room just like a free standing stove ? I would have to modify the front of the fire place and add a bit of pipe but I would have to do all that to install a regular free standing wood stove anyway. Maybe I'd get more radiant heat from the stove and possibly not even have to replace it. Any thoughts on this idea ?



That would void the UL listing of the insert and you would need to install it with all clearances for an unlisted stove. Also you would need quite a bit of r-value in the hearth as the insert is designed to sit in a masonry structure, not on combustibles. 

Is that fireplace on an exterior or interior wall? What brand/model is it? What kind of wood are you burning and how long has it been seasoned? When you turn on your furnace/boiler/whatever, how long does it take to get the home warm?


----------



## BrotherBart

Rather than do that, just try taking the surround off of it where it is at.


----------



## frankm1960

Grisu said:


> That would void the UL listing of the insert and you would need to install it with all clearances for an unlisted stove. Also you would need quite a bit of r-value in the hearth as the insert is designed to sit in a masonry structure, not on combustibles.
> 
> Is that fireplace on an exterior or interior wall? What brand/model is it? What kind of wood are you burning and how long has it been seasoned? When you turn on your furnace/boiler/whatever, how long does it take to get the home warm?


It's on an exterior wall. Can't remember the model or brand, label is on the back side. I'm burning softwood at the moment which I'm told has been cut sept 2013 so it's about 1yr drying outside. Its takes hours to heat the house up a couple degrees which is why I'm looking to change things to get more heat. It may be that the insert is just to small. It holds 20" sticks so the fire box isn't tiny by any means. Here's some pix.


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## frankm1960

BrotherBart said:


> Rather than do that, just try taking the surround off of it where it is at.


That's a lot of bricks to remove. I'd rather not do that unless I remove the whole fireplace and chimney which I've considered doing. Check out the pix above if you have time. My set up is shown in my avitar as well. It's a basic fireplace from the 70's, standard split entry home roughly 25' x 45' which is now opened up somewhat ie  kitchen/dining/living room area is pretty much one big room roughly 25' x 30' I'd say, which is the area I want to heat. The bedrooms will take a long time to get warmer but they will eventually. I'm not trying to heat the basement with wood, I leave that fairly cold.


----------



## Grisu

frankm1960 said:


> It's on an exterior wall. Can't remember the model or brand, label is on the back side. I'm burning softwood at the moment which I'm told has been cut sept 2013 so it's about 1yr drying outside. Its takes hours to heat the house up a couple degrees which is why I'm looking to change things to get more heat. It may be that the insert is just to small. It holds 20" sticks so the fire box isn't tiny by any means.



When it is at an exterior wall you may loose heat through the bricks out the back. If you have some room, try insulating behind the insert. See this thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/

Has the wood been split after cutting or was it just split recently? Unsplit wood barely dries, you may be burning green wood. Did you check its moisture content? If it was split: In my experience softwood likes to soak up water. Has the wood been top-covered during the seasoning? 
How far do you reduce the air when you burn the wood? Do you have a way of measuring the temps of the insert (stove thermometer)? 


frankm1960 said:


> That's a lot of bricks to remove. I'd rather not do that unless I remove the whole fireplace and chimney which I've considered doing.



The surround is the black metal plate that covers the fireplace opening. When you remove that one you will see the insert sitting in the fireplace.


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## mellow

That is what I was going to recommend, insulating the entire firebox as it sounds like you are losing heat to the outside with an exterior fireplace, I would at a minimum insulate the firebox behind the insert with Roxul, but Roxul and Cement board works better.  I saw a difference in my burn times and heat coming out of the insert after insulating the entire firebox.

Just think about it, all that heat has to warm the surrounding brick before it will start putting it out via the fan.


----------



## frankm1960

Grisu said:


> When it is at an exterior wall you may loose heat through the bricks out the back. If you have some room, try insulating behind the insert. See this thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/
> 
> Has the wood been split after cutting or was it just split recently? Unsplit wood barely dries, you may be burning green wood. Did you check its moisture content? If it was split: In my experience softwood likes to soak up water. Has the wood been top-covered during the seasoning?
> How far do you reduce the air when you burn the wood? Do you have a way of measuring the temps of the insert (stove thermometer)?
> 
> 
> The surround is the black metal plate that covers the fireplace opening. When you remove that one you will see the insert sitting in the fireplace.



About 2/3 was already split, 1/3 was split in may. I'm not confident that the stuff I split was cut in sept 2013 but he said it was. It's all been stacked and top covered outside drying since first of May. I didn't check it's moisture content. 

I do have some wood that was cut and split in spring 2013 which I'll try in a few days to see it that's better. It was stacked in a "garage in a box" type shelter without a door so I think it would be more dry.
Today I did not reduce the air at all, in fact I kept the door open a crack because I saw smoke from the chimney when I closed the door. Smoke from the chimney indicates low temp burn ?? so I kept the door open a bit and saw more flames and that eliminated the smoke from the chimney. I don't have a stove thermometer.


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## frankm1960

mellow said:


> That is what I was going to recommend, insulating the entire firebox as it sounds like you are losing heat to the outside with an exterior fireplace, I would at a minimum insulate the firebox behind the insert with Roxul, but Roxul and Cement board works better.  I saw a difference in my burn times and heat coming out of the insert after insulating the entire firebox.
> 
> Just think about it, all that heat has to warm the surrounding brick before it will start putting it out via the fan.



Thank you for that info. It's good to hear from others who have already been there and done that. I'll give that a shot as soon as my stove cools. I do have some "attic roxul" but I don't know if that will stay in place as well as the roxul board type stuff.


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## Grisu

Smoke from the chimney indicates wet wood. You should only see some during the startup phase, like the first 10 minutes of a burn. Leaving the door open means you operated the insert as a fireplace; essentially sending most/all of the heat up the chimney. I would get a stove thermometer to check if you even get the insert up to temp. Invest also in a moisture meter to check your wood. I have the feeling you are having still wet wood and to compensate for that you leave the air open too far sending most of the heat up the chimney. Your insert may rarely reach optimal burning temps and therefore cannot heat your home.


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## frankm1960

BrotherBart said:


> Rather than do that, just try taking the surround off of it where it is at.



I completely miss understood. I have had the insert out before and I may leave the shroud off when I remove the insert to insulate behind it. Thanks for that tip. It's gonna look some ugly without the shroud. The bricks behind it are kinda black. Maybe I can clean them I don't know.


----------



## frankm1960

Grisu said:


> Smoke from the chimney indicates wet wood. You should only see some during the startup phase, like the first 10 minutes of a burn. Leaving the door open means you operated the insert as a fireplace; essentially sending most/all of the heat up the chimney. I would get a stove thermometer to check if you even get the insert up to temp. Invest also in a moisture meter to check your wood. I have the feeling you are having still wet wood and to compensate for that you leave the air open too far sending most of the heat up the chimney. Your insert may rarely reach optimal burning temps and therefore cannot heat your home.



I left it open about a 1/4" , not much but I hear what you're saying. I shouldn't have to leave it open at all if the wood is dry, in fact I should be able to close off the draft a bit after it's been going a while.
I will try my other load of wood and will invest in a stove thermometer if I see the same burn issues with that batch of wood.
Roughly what should the temp be at the top of my insert?


----------



## begreen

The top of the insert is not the stove top. There is a convection air space below the top so readings on it would be low. Measure the stove temp on the face above the left or right side of the door. It should read about 500-600F with a good fire going.


----------



## Grisu

frankm1960 said:


> I left it open about a 1/4" , not much but I hear what you're saying. I shouldn't have to leave it open at all if the wood is dry, in fact I should be able to close off the draft a bit after it's been going a while.
> I will try my other load of wood and will invest in a stove thermometer if I see the same burn issues with that batch of wood.
> Roughly what should the temp be at the top of my insert?



I can tell you what I did. First, I got an IR thermometer ($30 at Harbor Freight); not just for the stove but also to check for cold spots in the house. Then I pulled off the surround of the insert, removed the top of the air channel to expose the actual stove top. That is the part where the warm air comes out in your case. For a few days I fired the insert as usual some times with the blower off, some times on. I measured the hottest spot on the stove top and then also the hottest spot on the front of the insert which in my case is directly above the door in the center. At the beginning of the burn the difference was usually ~100 F less in the front than on the top, later when the secondaries have been on for a while and the stove had settled in for a nice burn more like 50 F less. Then I put everything back together and now I know that measuring the spot in the front means 50 to 100 F less than the stove top. Thus I aim for 600 F to 650 F max at that location, translating to around 650 F to 750 F stove top depending on the stage of the burn cycle. 

If you get a typical stove thermometer (Condar is preferred here) use it as BeGreen suggested. And maybe test your stove also with some kiln-dried wood from the store or some lumber scraps. Essentially any wood you know is surely dry.


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## frankm1960

begreen said:


> The top of the insert is not the stove top. There is a convection air space below the top so readings on it would be low. Measure the stove temp on the face above the left or right side of the door. It should read about 500-600F with a good fire going.


Yes, good point. I do have a convection/duct around the bottom, back and top which is used by the blower. I believe the blower pulls the air from the room, forces it around and out the top duct, heating up as it goes around the hot stove. As you say I should put the thermometer at the front where there's space. The top of my stove would definitely be much cooler I would say.


----------



## frankm1960

Grisu said:


> I can tell you what I did. First, I got an IR thermometer ($30 at Harbor Freight); not just for the stove but also to check for cold spots in the house. Then I pulled off the surround of the insert, removed the top of the air channel to expose the actual stove top. That is the part where the warm air comes out in your case. For a few days I fired the insert as usual some times with the blower off, some times on. I measured the hottest spot on the stove top and then also the hottest spot on the front of the insert which in my case is directly above the door in the center. At the beginning of the burn the difference was usually ~100 F less in the front than on the top, later when the secondaries have been on for a while and the stove had settled in for a nice burn more like 50 F less. Then I put everything back together and now I know that measuring the spot in the front means 50 to 100 F less than the stove top. Thus I aim for 600 F to 650 F max at that location, translating to around 650 F to 750 F stove top depending on the stage of the burn cycle.
> 
> If you get a typical stove thermometer (Condar is preferred here) use it as BeGreen suggested. And maybe test your stove also with some kiln-dried wood from the store or some lumber scraps. Essentially any wood you know is surely dry.



I've been looking on ebay for an IR thermometer. I saw another thread in here on that. I'll check my stove and see if I can access the top of mine. I don't think I can remove the top of the air channel though. I've had that stove out back in the spring and didn't see anything. But I will be taking it out to insulate the fireplace behind the stove.

I did do a burn today (still going right now) and used the other batch of wood and there was a big difference. I didn't need to leave the door open and I currently have the draft shut down and it's burning fine and there is slightly hotter air coming from the convection air space and the wood is burning slower but still burning. So there's a lesson learned on green wood. I thought that batch of wood I got was dry enough but I think that guy I got it from let it sit out all winter before he split it , at least some of it he did I'm sure. I'll burn that batch next year. I have another batch here that was split and stacked and covered back in may 2013 so I'm going to use that up this winter.

I do need to get that IR thermometer though. Take some of the guess work out while I get more experience. I'm hoping to start cutting my own wood so that should take some guess work out of the wood I burn, down the road at least.


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## frankm1960

Ok so I got the stove out and modified the fireplace by removing the base (which was sticking out into the room and not big enough to be useful and more in the way) right down to the floor.
As a test I want to install the stove outside the fireplace just like any other stand alone wood stove.  It's not designed for that but I want to fire it up and see if the stove radiates heat. Currently the stove doesn't radiate heat hardly and I want to know if its the stove or the fact the stove sits in a masonary fireplace. I've done a block off plate but have yet to insulate behind the stove but I may do that depending on my findings.

So, before I do this I need to build a hearth. I checked the hearth building guide on this site. This stove is designed to sit in a fire place so there's no R value specified for a hearth so I need to pick one.
I'll pick R=3 (very high) which is roughly a 2" ventilated air gap. I'll build a 4' x 8' ceramic tile on plywood hearth which I'll set in front of the fireplace right on the floor you se. On top of the plywood and ceramic hearth I'll put 4 bricks on the flat as "legs" and set the stove on that. This raised the stove up 2" and should give me my R value 3. If you notice the stove has almost a 4" air gap on the bottom as well ( the duct for the blower) so I almost think I could set the stove directly on the ceramic tile hearth but I'll maintain that 2" air gap to make sure.

Here are some pics.

Any comments on this other than the fact it's against the code. I'm only doing this temporarily until the "test" is done.

Thanks,
Frank


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## bholler

I am sorry but putting it up on bricks does not give you any r value it is very dangerous to do so and you should not do it.  You need a hearth board or many layers of durarock next gen or micore of something with a given insulating value.  Just air space does not work.  DO NOT BURN IT THE WAY YOU ARE PROPOSING.


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## frankm1960

bholler said:


> I am sorry but putting it up on bricks does not give you any r value it is very dangerous to do so and you should not do it.  You need a hearth board or many layers of durarock next gen or micore of something with a given insulating value.  Just air space does not work.  DO NOT BURN IT THE WAY YOU ARE PROPOSING.



Thanks for commenting. Sorry I should have said I wasn't going to fire up the stove until I've heard comments from others. My last post was just me thinking "out loud" more than anything. I didn't mean to scare anyone. I'm feeling out my options and looking for input from others in the know.

I have read the hearth building article published on this forum and from the common materials R value chart I see that a 1" ventilated air space gives an R value of 1.43. One layer of 1/2" durarock gives an R value of 0.26. The way I interpret that is that I would need almost 6 layers of 1/2" durarock to give the same R value as a 1" ventilated air space. My interpretation of a ventilated air space is just a space where air can easily circulate. What am I misinterpreting here ?

I'm surprised that an air space of one inch has such a high R value considering a one inch granite slab only has an R value of .083. Air it seems has a relatively high R value according to this chart. Air has almost 3x the R value of durarock.


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## begreen

bholler said:


> I am sorry but putting it up on bricks does not give you any r value it is very dangerous to do so and you should not do it.  You need a hearth board or many layers of durarock next gen or micore of something with a given insulating value.  Just air space does not work.  DO NOT BURN IT THE WAY YOU ARE PROPOSING.


This is completely incorrect. 3/8" millboard is a fairly mild requirement. I think 1/2" Durock NexGen is about equivalent. You can no longer get regular Durock cement board (R value .26 per 1/2") Durock NexGen has replaced it, R=.39 per 1/2". Also note that bricks do have an R-value. Common brick is R=.45 for 2 1/4" thickness. And air is an excellent insulator. That is why it is used in an NFPA 211 wall shield.

For more info on the millboard requirement here is a good, old discussion:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/anyone-know-the-r-value-of-metal-clad-millboard.7102/


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## frankm1960

begreen said:


> This is completely incorrect. 3/8" millboard is a fairly mild requirement. I think 1/2" Durock NexGen is about equivalent. You can no longer get regular Durock cement board (R value .26 per 1/2") Durock NexGen has replaced it, R=.39 per 1/2". Also note that bricks do have an R-value. Common brick is R=.45 for 2 1/4" thickness. And air is an excellent insulator. That is why it is used in an NFPA 211 wall shield.
> 
> For more info on the millboard requirement here is a good, old discussion:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/anyone-know-the-r-value-of-metal-clad-millboard.7102/



I'm not sure I understand your comment... what is incorrect in his comment and what do you mean "3/8 millboard is a fairly mild requirement" ... in the context of what we were talking about ?

On another note, I'm amazed that 3 layers of brick have less R value than a 1" air space and if you filled that air space with fibre glass insulation you would more than double the R value of 3 bricks. Would need 3 layers of micore, over 8 sheets of Durock NexGen. Air space and/or insulation (roxul) is probably the best bang for your buck when it comes to building a hearth... if  you could find a way to incorporate that into the design. Unless I'm misunderstanding the table.

My insert has a 4" ventilated air space built in on the bottom and 1" on the back and top. Only the sides are without a built in ventilated air space. Maybe that's why it doesn't throw any heat.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.


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## begreen

The pictures show the hearth step removed, but the fireplace hearth intact. Has that changed. The posting says, "As a test I want to install the stove outside the fireplace..." Has that changed or is the insert still going into the fireplace? If in the fireplace then the only concern is the hearth in front of it. This is helped by the 6" rise of the hearth floor above the hearth step. The ash lip and step height helps lower heat radiated downward. According to the label, the insert only requires a millboard hearth. A layer of Durock and brick should be sufficient hearth to be quite safe in this circumstance.


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## frankm1960

begreen said:


> The pictures show the hearth step removed, but the fireplace hearth intact. Has that changed. The posting says, "As a test I want to install the stove outside the fireplace..." Has that changed or is the insert still going into the fireplace? If in the fireplace then the only concern is the hearth in front of it. This is helped by the 6" rise of the hearth floor above the hearth step. The ash lip and step height helps lower heat radiated downward. According to the label, the insert only requires a millboard hearth. A layer of Durock and brick should be sufficient hearth to be quite safe in this circumstance.



The hearth step was removed and will stay that way. The fire place is still intact and will stay that way. I want to install the stove outside of the fireplace and set it on a large flat 4' x 8' x 2.5" hearth pad (not built yet). The hearth pad will replace the hearth step that I removed and it will sit right in front of the fireplace. I'll set the stove on 1/2" legs of some sort to get an air gap under it. I've reconfigured the stove pipe to accommodate the stove in this position. All I have to do is build the hearth pad and then re-install everything and I'll be ready for the test.

What I do after that will depend on how the test goes.

This is all just a tentative plan. I may or may not go through with it. I may just go straight to a stand alone wood stove but we'll see.

Any thoughts/comments/criticism on that plan are more than welcome


----------



## begreen

So not a test, but a semi-permanent install. My apologies to bholler then, it's a bit crazier plan than I thought. This is not a stove, it's an insert and meant to be installed in a fireplace. I can't see this plan passing inspection or insurance approval. The double-90 turn in the smoke path right out of the insert is not going to help matters. 

Here is the passage from manual for the current incarnation of this insert.

THE INSERT AND ITS STAINLESS STEEL CHIMNEY LINER ARE TO BE INSTALLED ONLY WITHIN A LINED MASONRY CHIMNEY AND MASONRY FIREPLACE CONFORMING TO BUILDING CODES FOR USE WITH SOLID FUEL.


----------



## frankm1960

begreen said:


> So not a test, but a semi-permanent install. My apologies to bholler then, it's a bit crazier plan than I thought. This is not a stove, it's an insert and meant to be installed in a fireplace. I can't see this plan passing inspection or insurance approval. The double-90 turn in the smoke path right out of the insert is not going to help matters.
> 
> Here is the passage from manual for the current incarnation of this insert.
> 
> THE INSERT AND ITS STAINLESS STEEL CHIMNEY LINER ARE TO BE INSTALLED ONLY WITHIN A LINED MASONRY CHIMNEY AND MASONRY FIREPLACE CONFORMING TO BUILDING CODES FOR USE WITH SOLID FUEL.



I hear ya. No worries, it will be a test and it won't be semi permanent  It may be a very short lived test if the chimney draft is a problem. You see I've added a 45 and 9" of horizontal pipe to the original configuration which consisted of a single 45. What affect that will have on the draft I won't know until I burn some paper in it. So the test may end there. If it does end there I"ll re-install the insert. I'll leave the new hearth pad in place. The original step hearth was rather small and awkward so I'm happy to be rid of that. The nice big flat hearth pad will be much easier to work around. I'll also be adding a little roxul around the fireplace before I put the insert back in. Maybe that will help the stove radiate a little more heat. Other's have done that and claim it worked well for them.

You know I had to take the insert out to remove the step hearth and insulate around the masonary fireplace in any case so it made sense to me to install the insert outside the fireplace for a "quick test". Removing the step hearth and building a big flat one means I'm a lot closer to being able to install a free standing rear vented wood stove down the road if I'm still not satisfied with my insert. The hearth pad I make will be somewhere around R value of 3 which should be plenty for most stoves.

In any case many thanks for the comments everyone, much appreciated. I did learn a lot in this thread. 

PS: I have a design in mind for building a R value 3 hearth pad but I'll start another thread for that  Maybe there's already a design on this forum somewhere ?


----------



## frankm1960

An update to cap off this thread. I did do a burn with the stove installed outside the mason fireplace you see in the pics. It did heat up my room quicker with a little less wood than when it's installed in the fireplace. That's as I expected. The stove didn't radiate heat like my dads jotul F3 CB. I turned the blower off for a bit to check that. I started the burn slowly, paper at first then some kindling etc. Shutting the draft down stopped the burn in it's tracks so I wasn't worried about it getting out of control. It didn't draft quite as well in this configuration but it still started fine. I checked the temp around the stove and especially the bottom after it got up to temp. The bottom was cool to the touch which surprised me a little. I had the stove on legs made of brick, the bricks remained cold and were not affected. The stove is essentially air cooled with the large air duck on the bottom (4" x 20") and the air ducts on the top and back (1" x 20").

I'm re-installing the insert back into the mason fireplace after I finish the new hearth pad and insulate the mason fire place with roxul. I'll leave the shroud off for the first few burns to see it that helps dump some more btu's into my room. The hearth pad will have no R value to speak of  (ceramic on plywood), it's just for spark protection. I'll have to find a way to integrate it with the fireplace. I think I'll build out the fireplace at the bottom with some "sliced" bricks (about 1" or so) and morter them in and then slide the hearth pad underneath. this should prevent sparks from falling down the joint between the heath pad and fireplace I think. The new hearth pad is going to be 4' x 8' and will just float on top of the existing floor. I wanted a big area to work around 

In the end I don't see why an insert cannot be operated outside a mason fireplace. They should test them for that so people have that option.
I'll be looking for a manufacturer that does that with their inserts.

Whether or not I buy a rear venting stove or not remains to be seen. I may opt to "poke" a hole through my chimney above the fireplace and install a normal top venting stove. Might be a job for next summer.  There is more selection when it comes to top venting stoves.

So there ya have it. Lot of work and a little gained knowledge


----------



## Grisu

frankm1960 said:


> In the end I don't see why an insert cannot be operated outside a mason fireplace. They should test them for that so people have that option.
> I'll be looking for a manufacturer that does that with their inserts.



Good luck finding one. UL-testing is expensive and most manufacturers offer a similar stove model. So why would anyone buy a new insert to install it as a freestanding stove instead of getting (the usual cheaper) stove with legs and tested for that application?


----------



## mellow

Plenty of stoves out there that can be either freestanding or Insert,  Buck and Appalachian and High Valley off the top of my head has models that can be either.


----------



## TMonter

mellow said:


> I would recommend a rear vent freestanding over an insert any day if you have the clearance to combustibles and the hearth area to support it.  It will heat better (due to not being IN the fireplace) and does not require a blower.
> 
> An insert to me is a last resort heating device, you have the fireplace but don't have the room for a freestanding then an insert will have to work.



Not all inserts require a blower though. I have had my insert installed for 10+ years and never used a blower. I do however agree, a freestanding is the best way to go if you can make it fit.


----------



## frankm1960

Grisu said:


> Good luck finding one. UL-testing is expensive and most manufacturers offer a similar stove model. So why would anyone buy a new insert to install it as a freestanding stove instead of getting (the usual cheaper) stove with legs and tested for that application?



I didn't buy a new insert... it came with the house I bought 18yrs ago. I don't know where you got the idea I bought a new insert to install as a standalone stove. If you read through some of my previous posts you will get a better idea of the situation and why I started this thread.


----------



## frankm1960

TMonter said:


> Not all inserts require a blower though. I have had my insert installed for 10+ years and never used a blower. I do however agree, a freestanding is the best way to go if you can make it fit.



Without the blower I would freeze.


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## Grisu

I know that you did not buy a new one but you were asking manufacturers to spend extra money to have their inserts UL-tested for a freestanding application. However, manufacturers only care about selling new stoves. What happens 18 years down the road is not really their concern. Thus, they just won't do it because someone years later may find an insert that he/she wants to use as a stove.


----------



## frankm1960

Grisu said:


> I know that you did not buy a new one but you were asking manufacturers to spend extra money to have their inserts UL-tested for a freestanding application. However, manufacturers only care about selling new stoves. What happens 18 years down the road is not really their concern. Thus, they just won't do it because someone years later may find an insert that he/she wants to use as a stove.



So the manufacturers only care about selling new ones and they don't care what happens to their stove down the road ? Ok.


----------



## Grisu

frankm1960 said:


> So the manufacturers only care about selling new ones and they don't care what happens to their stove down the road ? Ok.



Businesses care about their profits and testing inserts for a freestanding installation would be a profit-losing endeavor so companies won't do it. That's called capitalism. (And not that I agree with it; just stating the reality we live in.)


----------



## TMonter

frankm1960 said:


> Without the blower I would freeze.



Which is more a function of the stove design than the fact it's an insert. My 3100i has no problem putting out heat with natural circulation.


----------



## Grisu

TMonter said:


> Which is more a function of the stove design than the fact it's an insert. My 3100i has no problem putting out heat with natural circulation.



Agree. It's the same with mine. I usually turn the blower off after the peak burn and rely just on the convection then. (And that I turn it on at all is more for getting the heat out quickly and/or to make sure the insert does not overheat especially on the pine I was feeding it a lot last winter.) I suspect the OP is losing a lot of heat from the insert through the back of the fireplace (or up the chimney if there is no block-off plate; don't remember that anymore).


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## TMonter

Grisu said:


> Agree. It's the same with mine. I usually turn the blower off after the peak burn and rely just on the convection then. (And that I turn it on at all is more for getting the heat out quickly and/or to make sure the insert does not overheat especially on the pine I was feeding it a lot last winter.) I suspect the OP is losing a lot of heat from the insert through the back of the fireplace (or up the chimney if there is no block-off plate; don't remember that anymore).



I don't have a block off plate but I did stuff the space between the liner insulation and the chimney at the entrance to the chimney with 3000F ceramic wool so functionally it's the same thing. I don't even have a fan on my insert but I have a split level home so it's a bit easier to heat than a single level home would be.


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## Charles1981

There are plenty of free standing stoves with rear exit that work just fine... I'm not sure it really even matters in the case of my stove because it is a down draft and everything has to pass down  through the coal bed, back into a refractory and then up into a catalyst in the back before exiting the stove.. maybe some other could enlighten me as to whether or not it matters my vc encore 2n1 is top exit or rear exit.

Not that anyone here would encourage you to purchase a rear exit downdraft stove though...

As I posted last year...I also have 4 feet of horizontal run before it goes vertical. Most would say this is terrible for draft but I also have a 27 foot vertical liner and thus the stove pulls like a draft horse.

Somehow I think i have an ideal setup for a downdraft stove as I have not experienced some of the nightmares other newer VC owners report here, but all in all If I were in your shoes I would be looking at extending that hearth, and just finding a rear exit stove that suited my needs.


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## begreen

Some inserts are better than others at convecting heat without the blower. PE specifically designs theirs with this in mind. In general the more the insert projects out on the hearth the better chance of it convecting well.


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## frankm1960

Charles1981 said:


> There are plenty of free standing stoves with rear exit that work just fine... I'm not sure it really even matters in the case of my stove because it is a down draft and everything has to pass down  through the coal bed, back into a refractory and then up into a catalyst in the back before exiting the stove.. maybe some other could enlighten me as to whether or not it matters my vc encore 2n1 is top exit or rear exit.
> 
> Not that anyone here would encourage you to purchase a rear exit downdraft stove though...
> 
> As I posted last year...I also have 4 feet of horizontal run before it goes vertical. Most would say this is terrible for draft but I also have a 27 foot vertical liner and thus the stove pulls like a draft horse.
> 
> Somehow I think i have an ideal setup for a downdraft stove as I have not experienced some of the nightmares other newer VC owners report here, but all in all If I were in your shoes I would be looking at extending that hearth, and just finding a rear exit stove that suited my needs.



That's a really nice set up you have there and I agree my best option is to get a rear venting stove as my situation is almost identical to yours. I think the only difference is you have your stove in the basement setting on concrete where as mine is upstairs on a wood floor so the hearth R value comes into play.


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## frankm1960

A quick update. Here's a pic. I redid my block off plate to improve the seal around the liner and I insulated both sides of the plate with roxul board. Any heat entering the fireplace pit from the stove will likely just billow out into the room. Not much chance it going up the chimney like before.

The new hearth has almost no R value, it's only for spark protection.

I did leave the stove outside the fireplace as you can see. To put it back in would require a custom made SS elbow which I don't have. Right now the stove is supported by a rack made of 2 steel bars and 4 bricks.

I've fired it 3 times so far with the stove pipe reaching 500 degrees. The bottom of the stove got warm to the touch and the hearth tiles underneath remained cold. The sides generate a quite a bit of heat so I installed metal heat shields on each side (made from the original shroud).

So far I have not seen any issues with it in this configuration and I'm happy with the heat the stove generates.


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## bholler

Did you run this by your insurance company or the local code guys?


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## begreen

> I'll pick R=3 (very high) which is roughly a 2" ventilated air gap. I'll build a 4' x 8' ceramic tile on plywood hearth which I'll set in front of the fireplace right on the floor you se. On top of the plywood and ceramic hearth I'll put 4 bricks on the flat as "legs" and set the stove on that. This raised the stove up 2" and should give me my R value 3. If you notice the stove has almost a 4" air gap on the bottom as well ( the duct for the blower) so I almost think I could set the stove directly on the ceramic tile hearth but I'll maintain that 2" air gap to make sure.


This thread started out asking for help with a proper F3CB install and has degraded into an unlisted experiment. Closing thread.


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