# wood furnace always smokes..UPDATE



## wiz (Jan 27, 2014)

I have an energy king 480ek and it always smokes when you open the loading door.  Also it takes forever to light.  Any suggestions?  Or more info needed?  Please ask....Thanks


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## KindredSpiritzz (Jan 27, 2014)

not sure on your energy king but i know mine seems to smoke more when the chimney needs to be cleaned or when the chimney is cool. Sounds like you're not getting a good draft for some reason.


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## wiz (Jan 27, 2014)

KindredSpiritzz said:


> not sure on your energy king but i know mine seems to smoke more when the chimney needs to be cleaned or when the chimney is cool. Sounds like you're not getting a good draft for some reason.


I do think the draft is a big problem. But I can't understand why. As for the chimney, it should be ok i hardly use this thing


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## KindredSpiritzz (Jan 28, 2014)

is it tall enough? 3 ft above any peaks within 10 ft? how many angles do you have on it as it goes out?


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## wiz (Jan 28, 2014)

KindredSpiritzz said:


> is it tall enough? 3 ft above any peaks within 10 ft? how many angles do you have on it as it goes out?


It is one foot higher than the peak bet its 12 feet away.  I did try adding another three foot piece...same result...I have a T in the back of the furnace and two 45s...rest is straight.  Insulated pipe outside...black pipe inside.


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## wiz (Jan 28, 2014)

Just now the stack temp is 300 and when I open the door it bellows right out in my face


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## mike van (Jan 28, 2014)

You must have blockage somewhere, maybe inside the stove?  That knob/handle on the front is a damper? Maybe it's come undone and stuck closed?   As far as lighting - After a lifetime of paper & matches, this year I started using a Bernzomatic torch, propane, life has never been easier - You still need some small amount of  kindling, and dry wood too, but it's blazing in half a minute.


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## wiz (Jan 28, 2014)

mike van said:


> You must have blockage somewhere, maybe inside the stove?  That knob/handle on the front is a damper? Maybe it's come undone and stuck closed?   As far as lighting - After a lifetime of paper & matches, this year I started using a Bernzomatic torch, propane, life has never been easier - You still need some small amount of  kindling, and dry wood too, but it's blazing in half a minute.


Today I'm going to check the flue.  The slide damper is working.  It takes like an hour to get it started.  I even use diesel fuel too.  Last night the flue temp was 400.....opened the door smoke was puffing right out.  Its like it has no draw


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## KindredSpiritzz (Jan 28, 2014)

how long have you had this furnace? did you get it used? sure sounds like you have a blockage somewhere in the chimney or in the furnace itself. Is the cap on the T ?
More pictures of your set up would be helpful


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## phantomblack (Jan 28, 2014)

Sounds like my wood stove when the spark arresting cap got clogged up with crud when I first started burning. I was running wood that I thought was dry, well I thought wrong. I'd be checking the flue for obstructions as others on here have said.


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## wiz (Jan 28, 2014)

phantomblack said:


> Sounds like my wood stove when the spark arresting cap got clogged up with crud when I first started burning. I was running wood that I thought was dry, well I thought wrong. I'd be checking the flue for obstructions as others on here have said.


I'm working on a YouTube video right now. It will be posted within the next day.  My name on YouTube is jwmirz It shows the furnace duct work chimney pipes etc.  The stove was purchased brand new and was used maybe and I say maybe 25 times.


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## pen (Jan 28, 2014)

Once you put it on youtube, you can use the little icon (at the top of the text box you post in) that looks like two pieces of film to link to the video and embed it directly in a post here.


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## maple1 (Jan 28, 2014)

How long have you been burning the furnace & how long have you had the problem? How tall is the chimney? Have you looked in it? Birds like to build nests in there sometimes.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 28, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Birds like to build nests in there sometimes.


 
Yes they do!

TS


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## wiz (Jan 28, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Yes they do!
> 
> TS


The problem started when I first installed it...just never had time to look into it really.  I can't get on the roof yet...ice covered.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 28, 2014)

Pull the pipe and use a mirror in the day, you should be able to see all you need to see to make a good diagnosis. 

TS


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## wiz (Jan 28, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Pull the pipe and use a mirror in the day, you should be able to see all you need to see to make a good diagnosis.
> 
> TS


Will do...crazy problem....lol...I'm just tired of smelling like a fire pit and my eyes burning from smoke


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## jebatty (Jan 29, 2014)

> The problem started when I first installed it...just never had time to look into it really. I can't get on the roof yet...ice covered.


In addition to other comments, do you have sufficient fresh air intake to support a good draft? Many newer houses and also some older houses do not, especially if other exhaust fans (kitchen, bath), clothes dryer, air to air heat recover unit) are operating. Try opening a window or door to get a fresh air flow and see if that makes a difference in your draft.

Also, what's the vertical length of your stack/chimney. If I remember correctly, my manual says I need 20 feet and an inside chimney to support a draft, and I made mine a little longer. I didn't get much smoke roll out to begin with, but after I added the automatic window opener when the boiler is operating, it is unusual for me to get any smoke roll out, natural draft.


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## wiz (Jan 29, 2014)

jebatty said:


> In addition to other comments, do you have sufficient fresh air intake to support a good draft? Many newer houses and also some older houses do not, especially if other exhaust fans (kitchen, bath), clothes dryer, air to air heat recover unit) are operating. Try opening a window or door to get a fresh air flow and see if that makes a difference in your draft.
> 
> Also, what's the vertical length of your stack/chimney. If I remember correctly, my manual says I need 20 feet and an inside chimney to support a draft, and I made mine a little longer. I didn't get much smoke roll out to begin with, but after I added the automatic window opener when the boiler is operating, it is unusual for me to get any smoke roll out, natural draft.


No fresh air problem.  Garage has eve vents...plenty of air...lol....my inside pipe length is 6 ft of black pipe then into insulated pipe thru roof for another 6 feet.


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## maple1 (Jan 29, 2014)

Only 12 feet of pipe & chimney? That's not very much.


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## wiz (Jan 29, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Only 12 feet of pipe & chimney? That's not very much.


It comes out of stove with a black tee..up to ceiling another 6 feet...thru roof and to rain cap another 6 feet...


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## KindredSpiritzz (Jan 29, 2014)

i don't know that i'd be running that thing til i got the problem figured out. I don't think i'd get any sleep at night worrying about  if i'd wake up dead in the morning


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## wiz (Jan 29, 2014)

VIDEO....PLEASE WATCH....thanks


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## laynes69 (Jan 29, 2014)

Ditch the magic heat! Not only do you have a short chimney, that magic heat is robbing draft. In all reality, if that furnace didn't have forced draft, I don't think it would burn well with that setup.

Also try loading when you have a coal bed. Loading with a burning load is only asking for trouble. Once the load is down to coals, there's going to be little to no smoke.

Also, don't assume that the draft is good if smoke exits the chimney. A good draft would allow you to load without any smoke spillage, especially with a bypass.


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## maple1 (Jan 29, 2014)

Yes - get rid of that thing in the pipe NOW.

While you're doing that, clean the entire chimney NOW.

I might have missed it in the vid - do you shut the forced draft fan off before opening the door? If you don't, you need to.

And your chimney might be (is likely) too short.


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## laynes69 (Jan 29, 2014)

Also, your flue pipe inside has a few offsets? You need a straight run, especially with a short chimney like that. What size of ducts come off the top of the furnace? Did you cap the plenum opening, or did it come with the 2 outlets? With a 160,000 btu output, you could very easily overheat the furnace by restricting the plenum opening. Unless your heating a castle, it would seem like overkill for a garage.


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## wiz (Jan 29, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Yes - get rid of that thing in the pipe NOW.
> 
> While you're doing that, clean the entire chimney NOW.
> 
> ...


I'll try it tonight without the magic heat.  Yes I tried turning off the forced draft...no change.  As for height....what can I do without it looking like a telephone pole out of my roof.  I have 7 feet now sticking out...Thanks


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## maple1 (Jan 29, 2014)

Any way you can get the kinks out like laynes suggested? Should be able to move it around a little bit?

Does it have a smoke curtain inside the loading door? A small sheet of metal hanging down kinda swinging from the top just inside the door? If not, one would likely help with smoke spillage - but if it wasn't built with one I don't know how you'd retrofit. Before opening the door, you need to turn the fan off & open the bypass. I assume pulling that handle out is opening the bypass? And I couldn't tell what I was seeing on/in the pipe just below the Magic Creosote Generator & Draft Restrictor - was that just a thermometer, or is there a damper in the pipe too?


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## laynes69 (Jan 29, 2014)

Luckily it's a simple design. A firebox and baffle doesn't pose much restriction in the flue. I'm willing to bet once that thing is removed from the flue, your draft will increase quite a bit.


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## wiz (Jan 29, 2014)

laynes69 said:


> Luckily it's a simple design. A firebox and baffle doesn't pose much restriction in the flue. I'm willing to bet once that thing is removed from the flue, your draft will increase quite a bit.


Nothing below the magic heat just a thermostat.  Yes it has a smoke curtain.


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## wiz (Jan 29, 2014)

Outside view


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## brenndatomu (Jan 29, 2014)

Yup, ditch the not so Magic Heat, a lot of wood burning appliances tell you right in the owners manual specifically to NOT install one of those.
Having one is a triple whammy.
1. It is a major flue restriction
2. They plug up with creosote and block the flue _even more,_ AND....BONUS, now you have _lots_ of fuel for a chimney fire!
3. It steals heat from the flue gasses, which lowers the draft even further, and you don't have *ANY* extra chimney to spare. I'd add at least 3 if not 6 more feet to the chimney just for extra cushion during funky weather, etc.
Just removing the MH will _very_ likely fix your issue.


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## Jigger (Jan 29, 2014)

Another thing that you might want to try. Is open up your manual draft a couple of minutes proir to opening up the door. This will allow an increase in the draft.


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## mike van (Jan 29, 2014)

If there's a screen in that chimney cap, I'd take that out too.


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## wiz (Jan 29, 2014)

mike van said:


> If there's a screen in that chimney cap, I'd take that out too.


No screen in the cap.  I'm removing the MH now...I will keep you all posted with the results etc.  And YES there is a lot of creosote and flaking carbon in the pipes.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jan 29, 2014)

Yup what they all said. Get rid of mh, lose those 4 90's, and if this is to heat the house not the garage use insulated piping in the garage as well.


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## Fred61 (Jan 29, 2014)

Your outdoor photo shows that your house sits low in relation to the close by trees. You could get a downdraft if the prevailing winds blow from the adjacent woods. That's my thought from the one photo you posted. Can't tell what the other 280 degrees looks like. The other thing is that if the prevailing winds are blowing over the ridge of your roof, you could also be getting a downdraft even though the stack sits above the ridge cap.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 29, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> The other thing is that if the prevailing winds are blowing over the ridge of your roof, you could also be getting a downdraft even though the stack sits above the ridge cap.


All the more reason to do what he is doing, PLUS add more height...IMO


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## iceguy4 (Jan 29, 2014)

magic heat needs to go  open the door a crack and let it clear then open slowly. Is it safe to assume there is enough "make up air"  ?...OAK? ...edit....check that cap too


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## jeffesonm (Jan 29, 2014)

I would definitely make sure the chimney and cap are clear and clean... had a similar problem recently with my wood stove and the bird screen on the cap was all gunked up.


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## KindredSpiritzz (Jan 30, 2014)

+1 on adding another 3 ft section of chimney


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## greenfeet (Jan 30, 2014)

wiz,

listen to what others are saying.................. get rid of the magic heat & straighten out the interior pipe as much as you can....


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## iceguy4 (Jan 30, 2014)

KindredSpiritzz said:


> +1 on adding another 3 ft section of chimney


   Geez your chimney looks good outside.. I always thought the rule was 2' taller then anything within 12'. I just poked around the internet and the rule is...
Chimney Height: The 2 foot, 10 foot, 3 foot Rule...(look it up)   First off its gonna be funny looking 3' taller (IMHO)    Is the chimney the proper diameter?  Is the building so tight as to create a vacuum?   That cap looks like it could plug too...


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## KindredSpiritzz (Jan 30, 2014)

his chimney is only 12 ft to begin with. See what it does without the MH first and go from there.


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## wiz (Jan 30, 2014)

KindredSpiritzz said:


> his chimney is only 12 ft to begin with. See what it does without the MH first and go from there.


I was not able to remove the magic heat and pipe situation last night because again it was -5 degrees here. But today there's a heat wave of 32 degrees. So I'm currently in the process of changing the setup as you all instructed me to. When I'm finished, I will fire it up and post results


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## wiz (Jan 30, 2014)

wiz said:


> I was not able to remove the magic heat and pipe situation last night because again it was -5 degrees here. But today there's a heat wave of 32 degrees. So I'm currently in the process of changing the setup as you all instructed me to. When I'm finished, I will fire it up and post results


OK....the results....removed the magic heat...pipe was shiny from creosote and full of flaking carbon.  Put straight pipe in...swept it down...upper pipe is OK too.  No obstructions...cap is good too....just lit it now....burning report soon...also to answer the other questions...6" exhaust pipe.  Plenum has 4- 8" openings... using only 2 now.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jan 30, 2014)

Is the opening for your flue of the EK 6 inches? chimney needs to be the same size as opening usually.


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## wiz (Jan 30, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Is the opening for your flue of the EK 6 inches? chimney needs to be the same size as opening usually.


Yes 6 inch exhaust...stack 6" also


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## STIHLY DAN (Jan 30, 2014)

That's good. How is it running now with your alterations?


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## wiz (Jan 30, 2014)

Well...its better...when its hot it has very little smoke puffing out...but I see one big issue.  Since I have 6 feet of black pipe inside the building it cools down fast and then it smokes again.  Is there an insulation I can wrap that pipe with to keep the temp up?


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## brenndatomu (Jan 30, 2014)

Double wall pipe would be best, but you could get an insulation kit meant for flex liner, wrap that around it. Shouldn't make a huge difference though. I'd think more chimney height would help more.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jan 30, 2014)

I don't know of any that could withstand a possible 900* temp other than double stainless. Any way you can use 2 45's and another straight piece to lose the other 2 45's.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 30, 2014)

Double wall will take more heat than the single that is there now....


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## STIHLY DAN (Jan 30, 2014)

Hey MR! I meant insulation around his single wall that could withstand that temp. K wool, but what to use to wrap it with?


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## wiz (Jan 31, 2014)

Been looking for pipe wraps that might work. Any suggestions?


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## jebatty (Jan 31, 2014)

> Well...its better...when its hot it has very little smoke puffing out...but I see one big issue. Since I have 6 feet of black pipe inside the building it cools down fast and then it smokes again. Is there an insulation I can wrap that pipe with to keep the temp up?


I seriously doubt that the lack of a pipe wrap is a cause or material contributor to your problem. Although it is possible a pipe wrap may make things seem to be better, you still have underlying unresolved problems.

Are you sure what you see is smoke as opposed to water vapor condensation? A byproduct of combustion is water vapor, and if outside temps are below 32F the vapor may condense into a visible, smoke like stream from the stack.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 31, 2014)

brenndatomu said:


> Double wall pipe would be best, but you could get an insulation kit meant for flex liner, wrap that around it. *Shouldn't make a huge difference though. I'd think more chimney height would help more.*


Reposted for emphasis. Here's a link for chimney insulation kits, many, many, many different vendors out there for these though...http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/insulation_kits.php


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## maple1 (Jan 31, 2014)

wiz said:


> Well...its better...when its hot it has very little smoke puffing out...but I see one big issue.  Since I have 6 feet of black pipe inside the building it cools down fast and then it smokes again.  Is there an insulation I can wrap that pipe with to keep the temp up?


 

So is the smoke you're talking about here out the top of your chimney, or out the door of the furnace?


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## brenndatomu (Jan 31, 2014)

maple1 said:


> So is the smoke you're talking about here out the top of your chimney, or out the door of the furnace?


Good question. And I would add to it...or are we talking about smoke coming from the pipe joints?


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## lindnova (Jan 31, 2014)

brenndatomu said:


> Good question. And I would add to it...or are we talking about smoke coming from the pipe joints?



Watch the video earlier in this thread.  It shows that he has smoke back puffing out the door of the furnace. 

I think minimizing the bends by 2 or installing two 15° bends and a piece of pipe would help a lot.  It needs more draft pulling up the air.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 31, 2014)

lindnova said:


> Watch the video earlier in this thread.  It shows that he has smoke back puffing out the door of the furnace.
> 
> I think minimizing the bends by 2 or installing two 15° bends and a piece of pipe would help a lot.  It needs more draft pulling up the air.


Right, I seen the video. I guess I had the impression (wrongly?) that maybe the issue had changed after the MH removal and that was why he wants to insulate the pipe...


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## brenndatomu (Jan 31, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Hey MR! I meant insulation around his single wall that could withstand that temp. K wool, but what to use to wrap it with?


Hey! Wasup?  Here ya go http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/pic.php?pic=rigid-insulation.jpg&cap=Rigid_Liner_Insulation


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## maple1 (Jan 31, 2014)

lindnova said:


> Watch the video earlier in this thread.  It shows that he has smoke back puffing out the door of the furnace.
> 
> I think minimizing the bends by 2 or installing two 15° bends and a piece of pipe would help a lot.  It needs more draft pulling up the air.


 
Yes, but then he changed things and the follow up comment about smoke wasn't clear to me at least as to where he was now seeing the smoke after making the changes. Sounded to me like the smoke he was now seeing was out the chimney, would go away when the smoke pipe was heated up, and come back with a cold smoke pipe.


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## Fred61 (Jan 31, 2014)

I went back and watched your video. You asked for comments and you got plenty here. Although I believe you have underlying problems as have been mentioned above, I did notice that you opened the loading door quite rapidly. My experience has taught me that almost any wood burning appliance will smoke if you open the door rapidly which causes a vacuum in the box. Not that this suggestion will solve your problem but I would like you to try this: -- Just unlatch the door and slowly crack it open about 1/2 inch which will allow the smoke and gasses in the chamber to start exiting the flue (7 to 10 seconds) and then slowly open it the rest of the way. That procedure should get the fire burning up instead of out your door.

I also think you would have better luck if your class A chimney were closer to the ridgeline even though you will have a longer run inside.


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## wiz (Jan 31, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> I went back and watched your video. You asked for comments and you got plenty here. Although I believe you have underlying problems as have been mentioned above, I did notice that you opened the loading door quite rapidly. My experience has taught me that almost any wood burning appliance will smoke if you open the door rapidly which causes a vacuum in the box. Not that this suggestion will solve your problem but I would like you to try this: -- Just unlatch the door and slowly crack it open about 1/2 inch which will allow the smoke and gasses in the chamber to start exiting the flue (7 to 10 seconds) and then slowly open it the rest of the way. That procedure should get the fire burning up instead of out your door.
> 
> I also think you would have better luck if your class A chimney were closer to the ridgeline even though you will have a longer run inside.


thank you all for your input... Greatly appreciated. 3. Answer some of the questions you addressed are as follows:. The smoke I'm talking about is coming out the door when I open the door to load wood. You mentioned I open the door quite fast. I did that in the video. But, I've tried opening it slowly and I've opened it and waited a few seconds and then open it wide. The same results happen. But, after I removed the magic heat the smoke was minimal coming out the loading door when the chimney is hot. As the chimney cools down it smokes profusely from the loading door. The chimney has to be at least 300 degrees to keep the smoke to a minimum from rolling out the loading door.


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## jebatty (Jan 31, 2014)

Solution: let the fire die down to low coals before loading.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jan 31, 2014)

brenndatomu said:


> Hey! Wasup?  Here ya go http://www.rockfordchimneysupply.com/pic.php?pic=rigid-insulation.jpg&cap=Rigid_Liner_Insulation



That's not fair!! I have to work all day, And you get all day to locate info to prove me wrong.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 31, 2014)

HeHeHe...I worked all day too...it's called access to a 'puter at break time. Yeah, I guess I'm addicted! 
Oh, and you're welcome


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