# Thermostatically Controlled?



## feedfriend (Feb 2, 2019)

Hi,
I am looking to buy a used ventless fireplace off someone online and they don't know if it is thermostatically controlled? Is there any way to tell from pictures? See pics. Thanks!


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## begreen (Feb 2, 2019)

Do you really want to have something ventless in your house?


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## feedfriend (Feb 2, 2019)

Yes why not? I researched them a LOT years ago and there's been no link to any deaths as a result of ventless heaters based on statistics. I've been running them in my house for 6 years now. Very efficient. What's the issue I am willing to listen?


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## KeithO (Feb 2, 2019)

The rise of ventless heaters is an example of the effectiveness of lobbying than anything related to facts.

One can install a sensor to detect oxygen concentration and shut down the heater before all the oxygen in the space is consumed.  One can install a CO sensor and hope that it detects dangerous levels of CO before you are overcome by it.

Do you think it is a good idea to be breathing combustion products from your heater anytime it is running ?  What kind of risk are you exposing yourself to by having the heater draw its combustion air from inside the living space, together with any chemical products that are in that air.  Cleaning products, aerosols, scents, some of which you may not be aware of or even relate to your heater.  Any airborne material will pass through the heater and possibly emerge in a different and more dangerous compound.  What about the constant combustion of low amounts of mercapton, which is quite toxic ?

I will never do it, just like I wont heat with an open fire all my life...


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## feedfriend (Feb 2, 2019)

KeithO said:


> The rise of ventless heaters is an example of the effectiveness of lobbying than anything related to facts.
> 
> One can install a sensor to detect oxygen concentration and shut down the heater before all the oxygen in the space is consumed.  One can install a CO sensor and hope that it detects dangerous levels of CO before you are overcome by it.
> 
> ...



When I have proof that they are dangerous, I will reconsider. At this point, I have not read any such information. Can you point me to any such studies so I can educate myself of any potential harmful effects?


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## KeithO (Feb 3, 2019)

Where do you do your research ? On ventfree.org ? 

See this report, published prior to the wider adoption of these heaters.

http://www.homeenergy.org/show/article/nav/heating/page/5/id/1359

Lots of assumptions go into the case studies that were used to certify the heaters, including btu output vs room size and the basic assumption that the heaters were not operated more than 4 hours per day.  And that a tight house had 0.35 air changes per hour.


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## wooduser (Feb 3, 2019)

No deaths eh?  I was plaintiff's expert witness when her brand new unvented gas fireplace was used for the first time.  She woke up in the hospital with carbon monoxide poisoning.  The fireplace installer hadn't followed the quite complex directions for installing the gas logs,  so the brand new fireplace was making a lot of CO.

But no deaths.

I do think unvented fireplaces can be operated safely,  if EVERY person using the equipment,  READS,  UNDERSTANDS and FOLLOWS ALL the warnings manufacturers place in the operating manual to cover their butts.  However,  I've never met a single person who does that.

Have you  read,  understood and followed all those warnings with the equipment you have?


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## brothermarkinter (Feb 10, 2019)

I've been using ventless for years with no ill effects. I just installed one in my new house which took a bit of trial and error to get right but both the missus and I have been using it without an issue. They're impractical in certain areas where they get a true winter but if you know how to use them they work just fine where we live with milder winters. That being said I would strongly reconsider buying a used one do to the fact that you never know if there's an underlying issue. New ones can be had for reasonable prices. 

Do you have a model # or brand somewhere on the warnings on the back of the model you posted? That'll help us figure out if there's a thermostat mode you can utilize if you are confident in the purchase

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## brothermarkinter (Feb 10, 2019)

wooduser said:


> No deaths eh?  I was plaintiff's expert witness when her brand new unvented gas fireplace was used for the first time.  She woke up in the hospital with carbon monoxide poisoning.  The fireplace installer hadn't followed the quite complex directions for installing the gas logs,  so the brand new fireplace was making a lot of CO.
> 
> But no deaths.
> 
> ...


This is spot on. If they are installed correctly then they work just fine. But too many people cut corners instead of following directions and this results in very bad outcomes. 

I've never had an issue with CO with these units but I have had an issue with faulty regulators or the ODS. Both of these were the result of shoddy installation. 

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## wooduser (Feb 10, 2019)

brothermarkinter said:


> . I just installed one in my new house which took a bit of trial and error to get right but both the missus and I have been using it without an issue.





So,  what was the nature of the "trial and error"  experiments you conducted?


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## brothermarkinter (Feb 10, 2019)

wooduser said:


> So,  what was the nature of the "trial and error"  experiments you conducted?


I had been given a faulty "universal install" kit which was not at all universal. It wouldn't provide the flow rate my unit needed. This resulted in the wall aperture in the fireplace itself caught fire along with the regulator. Since it was new I had been monitoring it closely and closed the safety valve to stop the fire. The pipe itself had unbelievably cracked open brand new. Buying a new connector set up fixed this but also highlights the dangers of these systems. But it could happen with any gas system imho. 

The only other trial and error was deciding on the heat output setting. Right in between Min vs Max on my unit turned out to be perfect for our home and give us more than plenty of heat. I'd recommend ventless to anyone who is willing to understand them just like any appliance; go in with the understanding and respect of how the appliance works and you'll most likely be happy if you still want it once understanding all the pros and cons.

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## wooduser (Feb 10, 2019)

brothermarkinter said:


> I had been given a faulty "universal install" kit which was not at all universal. It wouldn't provide the flow rate my unit needed. This resulted in the wall aperture in the fireplace itself caught fire along with the regulator. Since it was new I had been monitoring it closely and closed the safety valve to stop the fire. The pipe itself had unbelievably cracked open brand new. Buying a new connector set up fixed this but also highlights the dangers of these systems. But it could happen with any gas system imho.





Pretty much EVERY unvented appliance manual WARNS against DIY repairs or modification of the appliance of any kind.

Your experience above provides ample good illustration for why that is the case. 

In short,  you don't know what you are doing but apparently have unlimited confidence in doing things you don't know about and don't understand.

Unvented equipment can be operated safely if EVERYONE operating the appliance READS,  UNDERSTANDS and FOLLOWS   ALL the warnings of the manufacturer on how such equipment is used.  NO DIY repairs is a cornerstone of those warnings.

As I noted earlier,  I have never encountered any user who followed those warnings.  I have encountered numerous people who were taking their lives in their hands without understanding what they were doing,  some of whom I packed off to the hospital.   


Thank you for providing another example of why unvented equipment is best avoided.  The margin between safety and disaster is way too thin,  in my experience as a gas fireplace repairman.


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## Millbilly (Feb 10, 2019)

Can you get a pic of the control valve? I don't think you are going to be able to add a thermostat to that. And I agree with the statements of the other servicemen.


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## brothermarkinter (Feb 10, 2019)

wooduser said:


> Pretty much EVERY unvented appliance manual WARNS against DIY repairs or modification of the appliance of any kind.
> 
> Your experience above provides ample good illustration for why that is the case.
> 
> ...



I didn't DIY repair or modify this unit. The part that came with it was faulty and I simply replaced it. Not like I redesigned the system to run how I wanted it to. The unit itself was grand new. 

I actually did follow the instructions to a T and when I realized the part was faulty I replaced it with an actual working part. You calling me clueless is completely unwarranted. Replacing a connector hose, which was all that was needed to rectify my situation, is not rocket science and can safely be done if you take the necessary precautions. I have worked around various gas using units my entire life and am comfortable working around it. I don't call an electrician every time the outlet itself goes bad when I can just as easily replace it myself. Same thing with my appliances! Not every one is comfortable doing troubleshooting on an appliance and if you aren't comfortable then obviously get a professional. I'm sorry you have had to take people to hospitals regarding these units but there are numerous cases of boilers sending people to hospitals as well. Any gas burning appliance has it's risks at the end of the day. 

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