# Is there a reason to sharpen a brand new chain?



## akkamaan (Apr 20, 2015)

I have been teaching logging process machine operators in my past. And I have learned a lot from sharpening .404" chain with robots, grinders, and with a file. But you do not really realize what a sharp chain means until you use one on a chain saw instead of harvester head with a 50hp hydraulic saw motor.

I just a while ago got a brand new chain on my Stihl saw, and I could see the shape of the cutter was different than other older brand new chains I used for my old Husqvarna.

This morning I decided to make a little research on my own, and use my new macro and microscope lenses for my smartphone.




I started with putting the brand new file under the microscope


and a slightly used file


Can this be a reason why people think a brand new chain is the sharpest it ever will be in its life time??

Then I checked out a brand new cutter link and compared it with a brand new one which I re-shaped so the edge fitted the file, and I found out that this brand new chain have a severe hook edge, which of course, makes the chain sharper when brand new, but also get dull faster.
My green line shows the "proper" edge angle after using the file, and the red line shows the "hook" angle from the manufacturer.


Of course they will sell more new chains with this little trick 

Now I took a couple of close-ups of a brand new edge...


and one that I gave a "reconditioner" with a fresh file


Now I let you guys make some comments...


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## Jags (Apr 20, 2015)

Without a doubt it appears that the hook of the tooth from the factory chain is more pronounced.  I don't know that I would call it a "trick" though.
May I ask what type of chain this was?  RS/RSC or some other?  It would be interesting to know if ALL of Stihls chains are sharpened to the same shape from the factory.


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## akkamaan (Apr 20, 2015)

Jags said:


> May I ask what type of chain this was?  RS/RSC or some other?  It would be interesting to know if ALL of Stihls chains are sharpened to the same shape from the factory.


I did not have the box, and I don't know if there is a "code" or if the chain design can tell...
And I must say, that the one I adjusted with the file, still had little to much of a hook. 
It is recommended to have 1/4" of the file diameter above the cutter plane, that will always make the proper hook size, usually 75-85 deg is rekommended.


The image is captured from The Stihl Manual for sharpening
http://www.stihl.com/p/media/download/sharpening_STIHL_saw_chains_0457-181-0121_02.pdf
Oregon recommends 60-90 deg depending on the type of chain. 


from 
http://www.oregonproducts.com/pdfs/FilingAngles.pdf

I can not just now find a complete list of all Stihl chains...


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## Jags (Apr 20, 2015)

http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/saw-chains/


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## DougA (Apr 20, 2015)

akkamaan said:


> My green line shows the "proper" edge angle after using the file, and the red line shows the "hook" angle from the manufacturer.


Just so I understand what you are saying ... You are saying that you know the 'proper' edge better than Stihl?  And your expertise for this knowledge is ... ?

I think this thread will get pretty interesting if it lasts long.


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## Jags (Apr 20, 2015)

DougA said:


> Just so I understand what you are saying ... You are saying that you know the 'proper' edge better than Stihl?



Not looking to speak for him, but if I understand correctly - the factory chain has an edge that cannot be duplicated with a file.  So the "proper" edge with a file is different than a factory stihl edge.


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## akkamaan (Apr 20, 2015)

DougA said:


> Just so I understand what you are saying ... You are saying that you know the 'proper' edge better than Stihl?  And your expertise for this knowledge is ... ?


First of all, I do not have to document my expertise for you, to be able to make a post here. secondly, what make you think have enough under your belt to challenge my "expertis"?

I stated at the top of my IP (Initial Post), what my past have been regarding knowledge about maintenance of .404" machine chains.
Why dont you argue with facts instead of stupid questions like that?

Back to my post. I can see that Stihl (which I love dearly as a Stihl chain saw owner), are giving counter active messages with their offficial
chain maintenance versus their design of the cutter. Why the f**k do they manufacture a chain with a 45° leaning edge, and then advice the user to change it to around 75° (thats  what you get with ¼ of file diameter above the cutter plane) when sharpening with a file???






I do not take a lot of brains to see that something is wrong here...or does it?
If we keep maintaining that 45° when sharpening, we will be called to have used too small file diameter by the "real experts"
Finally I do think Oregon's experience in this chain saw subject is pretty solid.


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## claydogg84 (Apr 20, 2015)

akkamaan said:


> First of all, I do not have to document my expertise for you, to be able to make a post here. secondly, what make you think have enough under your belt to challenge my "expertis"?
> 
> I stated at the top of my IP (Initial Post), what my past have been regarding knowledge about maintenance of .404" machine chains.
> Why dont you argue with facts instead of stupid questions like that?



Here's a fact for you - Sharpening a brand new chain, regardless of brand, is a waste of time. Your cut speed gains will be minimal to the point of negating the time spent sharpening something that didn't need sharpening.


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## Giles (Apr 20, 2015)

Since I do not make a living with a chainsaw nor do I race them, a new chain of any quality brand is good enough for me.
I also realize that any manufacturer of chains use a happy medium for the shape and sharpness of their chain. I, personally feel that they grind to satisfy the need of the average user in ALL types of wood.
A little custom change in profile may work great in certain cutting situations and fall short in others.
Sort of like a new truck that is designed to do all sorts of different jobs, but does none perfect without a little custom modifying.
Or like an item that fits everything but fits nothing perfect.


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## akkamaan (Apr 20, 2015)

Jags said:


> http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/saw-chains/


Thanks Jags...
It must be the
*OILOMATIC® STIHL RAPID™ Super (RS)*
 I have.
http://www.stihlusa.com/products/chain-saws/saw-chains/rs/
This angle chart says 60° for a .325 Super RS
That is a little closer, but still at bit away from the factory 45° angle...


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## akkamaan (Apr 20, 2015)

claydogg84 said:


> Sharpening a brand new chain, regardless of brand, is a waste of time.


Did I ever say anything else in my posting? I just wanted to point out the brand new chains are not perfect.
But I bet you,  the logging show pros, do not put a brand new chain on for their "finals". And there is several reasons for that. I tried to point out one of these reasons with my post. Of course an amateur user, like me, will get his reason to to sharpen my brand new saw chain after refilling my saw with 1 or 2 tanks of fuel or 1/2 hour cutting dirty logs. Do your chain last 4 tanks?


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## Mag Craft (Apr 20, 2015)

If you look at the cutters on the oregon round ground chisel chains you will see a similar design in how the cutter is shaped.   I try and set my grinders to duplicate that hook as close as I can because the design has proven to work.
If you think it dulls to fast then do not use it, go to a semi chisel chain instead.   

The Stihl chain is not a trick but is a design to produce a fast cutting chain right out of the box and like I said if it dulls to fast then use semi chisel.


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## DougA (Apr 20, 2015)

akkamaan said:


> First of all, I do not have to document my expertise for you, to be able to make a post here. secondly, what make you think have enough under your belt to challenge my "expertis"?


I read your post that you are challenging the expertise of Stihl. I am questioning whether you have the expertise to challenge Stihl, not me.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding your posts. 

What I read from your post is that you think Stihl has got it wrong and that Oregon has it right.  Yes/No??


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## Fifelaker (Apr 21, 2015)

Well I will waste my time on a new chain! Being beat around in a box or on the roll during shipping and handling  is not healthy for a sharp tool of any kind period Also the speed is secondary as a sharp chain will make a power head live a longer life. I will also say that a factory grind is a compromise, as a perfect grind for softwood is a bit different that a perfect grind for hardwoods. Saw racing is a whole different ballgame. The chain is taken apart the tie straps are thinned and polished, the cutters are ground to the witness mark or more and back cut then hand filed, re-spun with new rivets which are then stoned, rakers set to a certain depth depending on the type of wood being cut. A race chain from one of the big guys is over $1,500 and takes about 80 hours to do. Besides it is MY time and I will waste it if and how I like.


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## akkamaan (Apr 21, 2015)

DougA said:


> I read your post that you are challenging the expertise of Stihl. I am questioning whether you have the expertise to challenge Stihl, not me.


I see that Stihl do not have the same support instructions about the chain products. When I try to find pdf's with information about angels etc. It only refers to sharpeing with grinders. The only intruction about using a file, seems to be more of a general art, that obviously do not take different chain designs in consideration. Like this "1/4" of the file above the cutter plane.  Stuff just do not make sense, and thats what I am challenging. Anyone can challenge any company about anything. I try to back up my arguments facts.  Sthil give their chain an agressive 45° cutting angle, that no other chain manufacturer ever, to my knowledge, used on a regular saw chain. And on top of that the recommend a less agressive angle for the owner. Why is that?




> Perhaps I am misunderstanding your posts.


Yes you obviusly do, because you are distractedby from not knowing my credits. If everyone have to document credits before posting on this forum, I think there wont be many members left....due to lack of kredits...



> What I read from your post is that you think Stihl has got it wrong and that Oregon has it right.  Yes/No??


"Yo" 
Stihl provide two very different answers on a question, without motivating why. I am asking why??. And thats how I challenge Stihl here.
And Mag Craft, for example, gave a great input from his perspective...And I agree with him on this...


> ...is a design to produce a fast cutting chain right out of the box


Which I also in little different words state in my initial posting.


> ...hook edge, which of course, makes the chain sharper when brand new...


Oregon backs up their products with complete and comprehensive manuals and specs. I miss some of that in Sthils program.
But that do not mean that  this German technology can't be competitive if maintained perfectly, and according to its design.


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## jnaumuk (Apr 21, 2015)

I find it interesting how some folks have complete faith in big business.  I guess Chevy and Toyota would never risk people's lives over a 2$ part either. I've also worked with software in the past that had intentional stop clocks programmed in to them so you had to buy upgrades. So if you think it's outside the realm of possibility that Stihl is not always looking out for the customers best interest you're kidding yourself.


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## akkamaan (Apr 21, 2015)

jnaumuk said:


> I've also worked with software in the past that had intentional stop clocks programmed into them so you had to buy upgrades.


Thanks jnaumuk, for verifying what I always have suspected.
Or the "stopclock" comes with a free software upgrade on your smartphone, before your 2-year contract is up for renewal...
"nope, I have no documented creds from that industry", only as a longtime user...


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## DougA (Apr 21, 2015)

There are a multitude of alternative choices for chains on your Stihl saw. I've used other chains and I prefer Stihl, even though it is much higher in price. 

Akkamaan, why don't you email Stihl with your findings and let us know what they say.


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## 1kzwoman (Apr 21, 2015)

akkamaan said:


> First of all, I do not have to document my expertise for you, to be able to make a post here. secondly, what make you think have enough under your belt to challenge my "expertis"?
> 
> I stated at the top of my IP (Initial Post), what my past have been regarding knowledge about maintenance of .404" machine chains.
> Why dont you argue with facts instead of stupid questions like that?
> ...


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## akkamaan (Apr 21, 2015)

DougA said:


> There are a multitude of alternative choices for chains on your Stihl saw. I've used other chains and I prefer Stihl, even though it is much higher in price.


 I don't have a problem with my chain, i only fire up my chainsaw a few times per year. 2-3 hours of use per year, enough to sharpen my chain  a few times. The chain doesn't bother me once I have used a file on it, and I usually have to use the file after the first tank is empty. Buying log yard logs is tough on the chains, any normal budget chain

[/quote]Akkamaan, why don't you email Stihl with your findings and let us know what they say.[/quote]
I am going to try that, and I will keep you guys updated on this thread...
http://bit.ly/1Dc7q4i

hmmm
http://m.stihlusa.com/information/mobile-contact-us/


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## CountryBoy19 (Apr 21, 2015)

Keep in mind that the chains are likely sharpened by a grinding wheel and over the course of sharpening many chain the wheel may take on certain shapes that are outside of a completely rounded profile due to wear in specific areas of the grinding wheel. I'm sure Stihl has a set of parameters that determine how often the wheel profile needs to be dressed to provide the best quality chain at the best prices. I think for any of this to be "conclusive" a fairly sizable random sampling of chains all from different lots, or a LARGE sampling of chain from a continuous run would need to be examined to determine if changing grinding wheel profiles are the cause of this.


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## Wildo (Apr 21, 2015)

It surely doesn't hurt anything.


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## Mag Craft (Apr 21, 2015)

Fifelaker said:


> Well I will waste my time on a new chain! Being beat around in a box or on the roll during shipping and handling  is not healthy for a sharp tool of any kind period Also the speed is secondary as a sharp chain will make a power head live a longer life. I will also say that a factory grind is a compromise, as a perfect grind for softwood is a bit different that a perfect grind for hardwoods. Saw racing is a whole different ballgame. The chain is taken apart the tie straps are thinned and polished, the cutters are ground to the witness mark or more and back cut then hand filed, re-spun with new rivets which are then stoned, rakers set to a certain depth depending on the type of wood being cut. A race chain from one of the big guys is over $1,500 and takes about 80 hours to do. Besides it is MY time and I will waste it if and how I like.



Yes you do have the right to spend your time the way you want, and I do not consider it a waste.
But the OP made a statement that what Stihl is doing with their chains is a trick as if they were trying to pull a fast one over on the public so that can sell more chains.   That is hog wash.


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