# Econoburn or Not



## Hard at Werk (Dec 10, 2009)

I am in need of some help in deciding what to do.  My 2,500 house is 4 yrs old and well insulated. 
My boiler situation is

Buderus Logano G115 w/Riello 40 Burner
Gross btu 120,000
Net Btu 104,000
Currently 18 psi

Storage is 

Buderus Logalux LT200
Domestic Hot water 52.9g
Heating water 1.85g

Mated to it is a Dave Lennox Signature Collection air handler

My dilemma is I live in MA, go ahead laugh it off.  We have some rules here, and everybody plays by those rules (well almost). I, like most folk want to play by the rules which limit me to installing only one brand of boiler - Econoburn.
It has it all UL, ASME, H stamp. My next question is would my existing setup work with this boiler and if so how often would I have to reload this thing.  Can I run it without a huge storage tank considering I am only going to be burning Dec - March.   and ballpark installation figures if possible. and if anyone knows of any other brand of boiler legal in MA, preferably German


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 10, 2009)

Wood Gun should be ok too. It's available ASME. A Wood Gun in theory does not need any storage tank. It has a unique airtite idle phase. You have had tough pressure vessell laws since I worked on compressors in the 80's & possibly 70's, I can't remember that far back. Randy


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## mtnmizer (Dec 10, 2009)

> My next question is would my existing setup work with this boiler and if so how often would I
> have to reload this thing.



I have no idea as to the interface portion of your question, on the reloading part, based on my
experience with an Econoburn it depends on several factors. Right now I'm running without storage
in bitter cold subzero temps. I'm heating 100% with wood and getting between 4-6 hrs with dougfir pine mix.
That's heating a 5k sq ft house @ 5400 ft elevation.. I could use 30% propane and get by
on a couple of fires a day. I have an unlimited amount of fuel on the property which make it work for me. 

I have storage in the works and hope to get it online soon. The material for my install came to around
$2K doing the work myself except for the final hookup. Satisfied and warm EB 150 owner

MM


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## flyingcow (Dec 10, 2009)

While you're deciding what brand, go get your wood split, stacked and ready for a year of seasoning. The rough figure I was given(by this site, and all the great input) 1 cord of well seasoned wood = about 150 gals of oil. Once you get a good efficient routine down, should be able to push that to 175ish. Your wood consumption is going to have quite a few variables. Same as with your reloading times. Others should chime in here and give their experiences. Quite a few EB burners here. PYBR? is one that will share his fun.
              my set up is a little different than what you plan, mainly because of storage. i fire the unit up about 4pm, reload if neccessary. Usually fires out around midnight/1am. I heat off the storage. Repeat again the next 4pm time. 1800sq/ft house,2 story, on top of a hill in northern maine. 3 kids in teens. Busy household in the shower laundry dept.


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## muncybob (Dec 10, 2009)

Since a WG is a possibility in MA....I am running a Wood Gun w/o storage and so far I can say the experience has been favorable. But, we have not had any really cold temps yet(that's about to change quickly!). My place is just over 2100 sq ft and only about 1/3 of it(a new addition) is well insulated. We keep temps prior to bedtime at 70 in the main living areas(thermostat sets back around 10pm to 66) and the new addition is normally at 66 unless we plan on using it(it's mainly a game room).  Loading 3 times per day(7am, late afternoon and 10 pm)...a load is usually 6 fairly small oak splits to this point. Plenty of heat and hot water.

Supposed to be in the teens next few days so we'll see if our routine changes much.

+1 on what flyingcow has to say about getting wood ASAP!!


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 10, 2009)

Another option . . . . Move to another State ;-) 

MA . . . it's okay to represent half of the State, take home chicks yer not married to, drive drunk, bury the chick in the ocean , , , , but its not okay to use boilers that other people in other states use every day :gulp:


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 10, 2009)

flyingcow

If I could get burns like that I will be more than satisfied. I mean 8hr burns, even if I have to feed at night. As long as I'm not paying for oil when it jumps to $4... and it will take my word on that.  As far as split wood goes I have an area 40' x 30' stacked 5' high tarped sitting for about two years.  One thing is I would hate to add a storage unit of somekind, its just that the price on this thing keeps climbing through the roof !


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 10, 2009)

ISeeDeadBTUs

you got that right! and GOD forbid we lower taxes.. I mean what would the moonbats make of that !  My taxes on all my equipment just went up about 60% and now the town wants to tax me on the equipment that I own including shovels, rakes etc..
but now were sidetracking from topic


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## EricV (Dec 10, 2009)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Another option . . . . Move to another State ;-)
> 
> MA . . . it's okay to represent half of the State, take home chicks yer not married to, drive drunk, bury the chick in the ocean , , , , but its not okay to use boilers that other people in other states use every day :gulp:



In the words of the great Larry The Cable Guy, "That's funny right there"


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## flyingcow (Dec 10, 2009)

Hard at Werk said:
			
		

> flyingcow
> 
> If I could get burns like that I will be more than satisfied. I mean 8hr burns, even if I have to feed at night. As long as I'm not paying for oil when it jumps to $4... and it will take my word on that.  As far as split wood goes I have an area 40' x 30' stacked 5' high tarped sitting for about two years.  One thing is I would hate to add a storage unit of somekind, its just that the price on this thing keeps climbing through the roof !



Generally when I fire it up, I wait until my storage tank gets down to 110ish+/- . The Innova will pretty much run wide open. 3 1/2 to 4 hrs and it's out of fuel, about that time I figure whether to leave it alone or refill it, and do i put a full load on it. 
       The EB is designed to run without storage. I think the WG is also. But a properly sized unit, should give you an all night burn. 6 to 8 hours? might be a little on the cool side at that time, but should have enough heat and coals to refire easily. If you keep your house at 74 at night, obviously this will not help. Call Econoburn and talk to them. I did last year when I was deciding what I wanted. They have great patience, and are very knowledgeable. A heat loss calc would be very helpful.
       You have a 30x40x5 pile of wood? That figures out to about 46 cord? WOW! What kind of wood?
       These gassifiers like the wood 6 inches or less in diameter. But I do put bigger splits on top especially on a refill. Whats the length of the splits? Might make a difference on what you buy. Fireboxes vary in length. 
       $$$$'s? for install?  seems you could have $6,000+ for unit, another 3 or 4 for a complete install? Need to get a listing from EB or WG on dealers/installers in your area. Have them come give you a estimate. Keep in mind, years down the road, you might find the coin to do a storage with it. Plan ahead on layout. If your able to do DIY type stuff, you could build a tank yourself, and have a pro hook it up.


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 10, 2009)

two zones stay at 67 at night and the biggest zone drops to 60 at 11 until 6 am. My pile is about 80% black oak, red oak and white oak. 10% maple and other 10% is beech, birch, ash, fruit trees. All split to about 4"-6" and 18"-20"  I am looking at the EB 100 they want $8k for it but he gave me a deal if I come pick it up and with Obamas rebate on Renewable fuels it comes to $5.5k for just the unit. I know a few plumbers around here and hope to keep install down to a minimum hopefully about $1500 plus material. As far as layout goes I have about 2000 Sqft of space in the basement I could utilize. But plan to put it near the existing boiler about 5ft or so, because I have an extra flue in the basement, something I did when the house was built.


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm still waiting for an expert to chime in and give me his two cents or somebody with the similar setup.


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## pybyr (Dec 11, 2009)

I have an Econoburn EBW 150, which I have had running since 1-15-09; I'm going to have storage, but, long story short, other projects and the rest of life have kept me from quite completing the connection between boiler and storage (though I am really close and am itching to get it running).

I've seen the Tarms, and seen an EKO.  I do not want to say anything negative about them- they're good units in their own right.

That said, I am fabulously happy with my Econoburn, and its design and construction suit my preferences better than anything else that I've seen to date (Garns are also amazing, but I wanted something in my cellar, and a Garn would not fit down there).

The basic design and construction are beefier than _any_ equipment that I've owned or operated, short of equipment that was originally made for the federal gov't on a 'cost is no object' basis.  The build quality is excellent.  And it works really well- feed it good or even sort of OK wood, and it will make more heat per unit of wood than anything else I've ever used (and I've previously run a fair number of wood burning appliances in a number of different situations).  Once I hit gasification mode (usually in less than 10 minutes from lighting a match as long as I use enough/ good kindling), all that comes out of the chimney is clean water vapor.  The only thing that accumulates in the flue pipe is fine ash- _no_ creosote (and some of the wood that I was burning last winter was not as well seasoned as it should've been).  Tonight, I came home, after being away for a while and no fire since last evening, and the house (2600+ ft of not so easy to heat early 1800s farmhouse) was 58 deg. F.  Lit a fire and the temps started climbing within 20 minutes.  It's 18 degrees outside.  Two cloth grocery bags' worth of sugar maple logs have brought the house to, and steadily held it at 73.  

Feel free to PM me and I'll give you my phone number and we can set up a time speak if you'd like.


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## pybyr (Dec 11, 2009)

Hard at Werk said:
			
		

> flyingcow
> 
> If I could get burns like that I will be more than satisfied. I mean 8hr burns, even if I have to feed at night. As long as I'm not paying for oil when it jumps to $4... and it will take my word on that.  As far as split wood goes I have an area 40' x 30' stacked 5' high tarped sitting for about two years.  One thing is I would hate to add a storage unit of somekind, its just that the price on this thing keeps climbing through the roof !



Understood that storage is not something that you want to take on at this time-- but don't close your mind or your options to it.  

In fact, I'd recommend setting up your installation of the wood boiler so that you plan &have; spots to tie storage in later.  When oil zooms back up to high prices, storage will give you the option to have convenient, well-regulated heat in the "shoulder seasons" -- and if I recall, when you look at seasonal BTU/ fuel demand, those times represent a significant amount of energy use, too.

Lots of people have put in gasifiers as a "first phase" and then done storage a year or two or whatever later, when the funds and stamina are ready.  Lots of people have also built their own storage for relatively low overall costs.

Just suggesting that you don't rule it out.


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## flyingcow (Dec 11, 2009)

I drive a truck for a living. So take me advice with a grain of salt, or better yet, a shot of whiskey. More but's in a shot of whiskey? Anyways, with out a heat loss calc , or an experience installer to figure it out, I might tend to lean towards the 150. Especially with no storage. A little bigger firebox, few more gals of water in the jacket, etc. My oil burner was 80,000btu, and i went with 102,000btu wood boiler. Seems to work good. You're going to spend maybe 10% more for the 150? Give you a quicker recovery in heating up the house when it runs out of/low on fuel?  My first thought when you talked about the EB-100, it might be a little small. My .02


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## willworkforwood (Dec 11, 2009)

Welcome to the forum, Hard at Work.  In your op, you said "how often would I have to reload this thing".  Reading between the lines, I'm guessing that your goal would be to load infrequently (1-2/day).  If that's correct, then there's one thing you will want to consider in your plan for a gasser.  These units produce a huge amount of heat, especially when fully loaded.  Running with no storage, for 2500 well-insulated SF, a fully-loaded EBW (or other gasser) will be idling much of the time.   Idling stops the gassification process, and will cause more wood to be used than is necessary.  So if your goal is to be loading as infrequently as possible, I would urge you to include storage into your plan from the get go (unless you have lots of well-seasoned wood and don't care if you use more than necessary).  We run an EBW-150 without storage 7x24, but had planned for this beforehand.  Trying to match wood usage to the actual heat load (i.e. avoid idling), we typically run smaller fires and load more frequently, with my wife tending the boiler while I'm at work.  Personally, with the boiler and 2 months of wood in the basement, I don't find loading every 1-3 hours during the day a problem at all, but every situation and preferences are different.  So, take those things into consideration as you develop your plan.  Good luck with your project!


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 13, 2009)

I thought about going one size up but its no ten percent its - $1,000  It's turning out to be a bit more than I hoped but then I didnt really know what I was getting into until I came here and read a bunch of older threads and started this one, that I realize this is NOT cheap. I have a wood stove in the basement. Which if you consider the amount of wood AND ash its not worth it. A gasser however makes alot more sense but also about 5x more moolah. To me it would be nice to burn less and get more. As far as storage goes  I'm not ruling it out completely, just not right away. I have all of the basement to put it in, just not yet. The house is all 2x6 outer walls and most inside walls, except closets, the roof alone has more LVL's than all of lumber 84,  floors are 2x12 on 12 with glued and screwed water treated 3/4 plywood, but those are just minor details. Anyways I think I'm going to just get one and deal with it. Then Ill find out how often I have to load it and burn times.


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## flyingcow (Dec 13, 2009)

Its just a learning thing. Adjusting to outside temps and demand, you'll figure it out. If i can figure it out, you can.  And i have to agree on the $$$'s amount. Ended up spending more than first planned. welcome to the club.


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## Tree farmer (Dec 14, 2009)

I am running an EKO 25 85000 btu without storage and am heating a little over 2000 square feet.   Not sure when I will add storage, from the current economic and political outlook on paying more for everything and everyone else maybe never.  Anyway I normally load it 3 times per day, one full load around 6:30am a few splits around 5pm when I get home and another full load around 9pm. that is with good hardwood.   On the weekends I dicker with it and  burn a mix of soft and hardwood with smaller loads. Only my second winter with it and I do love the beast.  I have 3 years of free wood but the wife says that still doesn't cover the 8g's we have into it.  I have a feeling unless oil goes to $5 gal I will be hard pressed to be able to spend more on storage.  

Happy without storage.


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 14, 2009)

If anyone is looking for a EBW-100 I know where you can get one DIRT cheap. Unfortunately for me its not a red one. I need a red one because I'm in MA. But send me a PM if interested.


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 26, 2009)

I finally got my boiler, this thing is a BEAST ! built like expense was no issue. Quality is superb. I got a plumber coming Tuesday to look at it and give me a number. once I get it hooked up I'll post some pictures and let you know how it runs. I went up to Vermont to pick it up since we dont have a dealer in our area. The gentleman was very nice he even let me look at his setup and explained how to run it and maintain it. Cant wait to get it fired up and enjoy free heat ! No more limits on temperature and all the hot showers you want. I also have a jacuzzi in the master bath which will empty the 52 gallon hot water storage before it fills up. At least now I wont feel bad.  As far as storage goes, when I clear my 5 acre lot I will consider it.   Cant wait to burn !


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## Hunderliggur (Dec 26, 2009)

I would really like to hear wat a MA plumber would charge.  I plumbed mine myself and think I did a decent job (no leaks).  MA is an interesting state, and I thought I had it bad here in the People's Republic of Maryland with the Honorable Stenny Hoyer as MY congressman.  My flue cost as much as the plumbing.


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## Piker (Dec 26, 2009)

I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone mentioning using open expansion... which I think should be fine in MA.  

cheers


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## pybyr (Dec 26, 2009)

Hard at Werk said:
			
		

> I finally got my boiler, this thing is a BEAST ! built like expense was no issue. Quality is superb.  !



Glad to hear you are pleased-- that's important with an investment this big; I completely agree on the design and construction quality- I've seen very few things designed and built this robustly except items made for Uncle Sam on the taxpayers' tab.

Wait until you light it up and see how much heat you get per amount of wood (as long as you have decent wood) and how clean your chimney stays!  Lots of folks here can help you in your path there, and with some firing tips on how to start (look up the NoFossil starting method- best I've found/ tried)


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 27, 2009)

I should be able to light fires no problem. I'm not new to burning wood, as a matter of fact i'm only twenty six and my guesstimate is I burned roughly 50 -60 cords in my short life span. so i know wood. Hopefully I will start burning before new years but I doubt it. I saw how it hooks up, it's really simple. For a couple of guys, a days work I think. I'll find out soon !


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## Hard at Werk (Dec 28, 2009)

Heres a question. What type of pipe should I use? and can i use two tees?    I'm considering ordering black 22ga stove pipe - $180 shipped. I hear some folks use stainless or galvanized which was my first choice but thin I found this 22ga black pipe. I'm not sure what to get any advice would be greatly appreciated. This is for an econoburn 100k and i'm about three ft from the flue.


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## Piker (Dec 28, 2009)

Black pipe will work fine... stainless will last a bit longer.

cheers


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## pybyr (Dec 28, 2009)

Hard at Werk said:
			
		

> I should be able to light fires no problem. I'm not new to burning wood, as a matter of fact i'm only twenty six and my guesstimate is I burned roughly 50 -60 cords in my short life span. so i know wood. Hopefully I will start burning before new years but I doubt it. I saw how it hooks up, it's really simple. For a couple of guys, a days work I think. I'll find out soon !



Lighting and tending a gasifier will be different than most other woodburning appliances -- no rocket science, just different;  you have to un-learn some old things and learn some new things.  I've burned a lot of wood in a lot of different wood-heating devices, and it takes some new acclimation to how the unit works (unlike most wood devices, where you rely on fire going upwards, you want a bed of coals in the bottom of the burning wood as fast as possible).  The aforementioned "NoFo method" works better than anything else that I've tried.


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## Piker (Dec 29, 2009)

pybyr said:
			
		

> Hard at Werk said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have been using a timer to shut my boiler off before the coal bed dissappears completely.  Even if the coal bed goes completely cold after a few days of drawing off of storage, 30 seconds with a cheap propane torch on the dead coals around the nozzle and within 60 seconds of turning on the draft fan you can be smokeless and gasifying like a pro with a fresh load of wood.  Not the only method, but one that I have several customers using now with great success.  It's simple, inexpensive, and effective, though on systems without thermal storage it's a little more of a guessing game as to when to shut everything down... but you learn.

cheers


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## Chris Hoskin (Dec 29, 2009)

Piker is right - there seems to be a misunderstanding that you MUST use an ASME boiler in Mass.  This is only true if it is installed as a pressurized and sealed system.  By installing the boiler with open expansion the boiler is pressurized (5 -10 psi instead of 15 typically), but NOT sealed (closed) so the ASME requirement goes away.  Hardware and labor to install the open expansion set up is comparable to the additional charge that manufacturers charge for the ASME units as I understand it ($1 - 2000?).

We have been using open expansion in commercial jobs for years because every(?) state requires ASME for commercial jobs.  We also now have some residential open expansion systems in MA.  We use open expansion on the P4 pellet boiler we are heating our building with here.  Works great.  

Hopes this clarifies some things.


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## Hard at Werk (Jan 9, 2010)

I AM FINALLY GASSING !! I mean the boiler. Got it fired up about 3 pm today. Took a little bit of patience to get it going from scratch, but figured it out. I just stuffed it full. Now I will be monitoring the temperatures and circulation speed to see what is most efficient.  Any pple with experience are welcome to advise.   Depending on how much wood it consumes, I may add a zone in the garage as I already have the provision for it.  Wonder if there will be anything in the chamber when I wake up.  Would be super. Will post pics soon, I am too tired to do so now.


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## flyingcow (Jan 9, 2010)

Congrats! What I thought was neat as he!! is when you go outside, no smoke. I knew it was gonna happen, but all it was is heat vapors. In the summer, couldn't tell i was burning.


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## Hard at Werk (Jan 9, 2010)

Not bad. I loaded it about 90% full about quarter of nine. (did a sloppy job) Opened it at 7 this morning and there was a hot bed of coals about 4"-5".  Thats about 9 hours of burn time at 19 F outside. Not bad at all considering I have a forced hot air system. I tried posting pics but the pc is giving me grief.


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## Hard at Werk (Jan 9, 2010)

One small problem, maybe its a big problem, I'm not sure yet. I am getting ALOT of condensation in the black pipe and the chimney. I think it's because I have two t's. The way my black pipe is setup, is i have an 18" piece coming out of the boiler into the first T. Theres a clean out at the bottom, and the pipe shoots up another 18" and then a second T.  Again a clean out, and the T goes directly into the flue.  There is water at the bottom of the first T. the cap was full of water this morning. the sides of the black pipe are dry. I'm afraid I might have to replace the T's with elbows but not sure if that will solve my problem. And also there is water running down the side of the chimney just a bit. Maybe I should take the chimney cap off. Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.


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## pybyr (Jan 9, 2010)

What species of wood are you using, and how well seasoned?


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## Hard at Werk (Jan 9, 2010)

99% oak the rest maple, birch, maybe some beech and ash. it's been sitting outside for about 3-4 yrs and in the basement for about 3-4 weeks.


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## willworkforwood (Jan 9, 2010)

Three possibilities come to mind to explain the water.   Earlier you said your oak was "tarped sitting for about two years".  If it was tightly stacked and fully tarped (no air), then it's possible the oak isn't close to 20% yet.
However, the usual tipoff for unseasoned wood is creosote, and if you have no creosote in the flue along with the water, then it's unlikely to be the wood.  #2 is the possibility that the refractory drying out produced the water.  I don't even know if that's possible, but others have reported odd things happening during the first couple of burns.  #3 - you said the WB flue has been unused until now, and perhaps there was a bit of snow or ice on the inside wall - it wouldn't take much to fill the cap with water.   So, as Gates would say - I don't know what the problem is - just try a reboot.


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## Hard at Werk (Jan 10, 2010)

My wood reads 20% - 22% in the split middle. On the outside it reads 9% - 11%  No creosote in lining anywhere. Not even a possibility of snow in the flue. I checked everything before I made the connection and also I have a chimney cap on top of the fact that we hadn't had snowfall for more than a week. I am beginning to lean towards the idea of the refractory drying out only because it's been running so far and no water at all. Not even signs of any moisture molecules. When I first started the beast there were drops of water hanging inside the refractory top and sides. I hope that this is a one time issue and the five gallon bucket will be there for looks only.  In the morning there was a small puddle in the back of the boiler which evidently leaked through the pipe and down the cinder block wall. When I took the clean out cap on the bottom off, there was almost a quart. Add what was on the floor and we got a half gallon.


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## Gooserider (Jan 10, 2010)

I would tend to agree with some of the other posts, could well be just the combined effects of starting up with stone cold everything...  Give it a few days and see if things get better...  If not, look for leaks, (we have had a couple folks find leaks IN the boilers  :red: apparently manufacturing defects....  I think most were at the flue exit from the fire box) and also your exhaust gas temps...

Gooserider


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