# In need of help/advice?



## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

After months of research, and reading tons of truly informative threads from this forum, I decided on the Pacific Energy Summit insert.  I had it professionally installed in late November.  The insert appears to be working properly.  It usually lights with little or no problems.  A full load of wood will burn for hours and just about overnight.  In the morning, I rake the coals, put a small piece of wood in and she starts right up again (it won't light up, if I load the box immediately).  Standing in front of the insert, with the blower going, you can feel a nice amount of heat coming out.

The unit sits in my family room fireplace.  The room is fairly large (20 x 27) and opens up into the kitchen area (28 x 15), in an "L" shape.  Picture the fireplace in the the botton, right hand corner of the "L". The ceiling directly above the fireplace has a cathedral ceiling (coming out 10 feet from the fireplace) and the rest of the room has 9 foot ceilings.

My problem/confusion is with the heat output.  The heat output is MUCH less than I expected.   The rooms are relatively warm.  Obviously, the further you move away from the fireplace and into the kitchen (the "L), the temperature gets cooler and cooler.  Although together the rooms total close to 1,000 square feet, I expected the unit, which is rated to heat up to 3,100 square feet, to keep it much warmer and quite possible allow some heat to travel to the rest of the house.  At this point, it seems like it's struggling to heat the 1,000 square feet.  I thought the problem was the cathedral ceiling, so I installed 2 ceiling fans in the area directly above the fireplace.  It has helped slightly, but it's still not what I expected.  I have been in other wood burning homes (inserts and stoves) and they were definitely warmer than mine, while heating a much larger space than mine.  I've read here and seen first hand, that many people heat their entire house with their stove/insert.  My wife still sits on the couch (about 8 feet from the insert) wrapped in a blanket.  I can't help but wonder if there is a problem.  

The temps outside (in  NY) have been mild and I'm burning mixed hardwoods)

Are my expectations unreasonable?

Could there be a problem with the installation (draft, air intake etc...)?
How can I determine if there is a problem? And if there is, how can I pinpoint it.
Could it be the airflow inside the house?  Where is the heat coming out of the insert going?


Thank you for your help.  This forum has been great. 


Happy New Year.

Anthony


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## Robbie (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269, wow, welcome to the forums, don't leave, the experts will be along shortly to help.  :lol: 

Now that I've got that out of the way, is your wood really good and dry ? Seasoned really well ?

How does your stove seem to draw or draft ? 

Blower seems strong ?

Have you checked your stove temps at max. output ?

Roospike has a Summit Classic, he can probably help, he knows about the EBT stuff.






               Robbie


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

Robbie, thanks for the reply.

My wood seems to be dry.  It burns pretty well and pretty fast.  This is my first year of burning wood, so I have no point of reference.  i don't know wood is "supposed" to burn in the insert.  My neighbor, who's been burning for years, said it was good and dry.

The blower seems strong.  Standing directly in front of the insert, you feel a nice hot wind coming off the unit.   However, it's not overbearingingly hot, and I don't know if it should be?

I have not checked the stove temps.  I need to run out and get a thermometer.  I will do so asap.

How do I chedk the draw or the draft?


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

Welcome to the fire ring brother acosta2269. 

That Summit if running correct and hot should be baking your cookies for you. I was thinking wet hard to burn wood also but with more info and questions I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this mystery.

Check this film loop of my P.E. Summit burning from a new fire to reload and let us know if your wood is burning as such.

Secondary burn: http://invite.filmloop.com/x?TiGQ7F6rkWljtamOMeI1Ev2k1CLKdfik


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

That Summit insert should be warming yer place real nice. My place is fairly large and it heats here well. I also have cathedral ceilings upper most top is = to 3 stories.
I also use a fan to blow it down. I have read that you may try and reverse yer fan flow, that way you won't have a cool breeze on you, but it will come down the walls instead. I have mine normal and feel nothing but warm air hitting me. Does get a lil cooler towards the 1st floor back rooms, but nothing bad. I have a loft upstairs and a set of steps on the other side of the kitchen, so I may be getting a nice circulation. You might want to also try a box fan blowing the cooler air from the farthest room. Then you can try to blow the warm air towards the back. I have read the cool air towards the heat source works best though. Each situation is different though.


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

Roospike, thank you.  You are the major reason I chose the PE Summit.  I was thinking of the freestanding stove at first (in the whorehouse red, of course), but after considering the kids, the dog, the space needed and the available fireplace, I opted for the insert.  

Although its a bit hard to tell, the fire in your pictures seems to burn stronger than mine does.  I get a nice burn with the damper open all the way.  But on occasion, when I close the damper a bit the flame also lowers significantly. However, as I write now, I have the damper all the way down, and the flame is burning nicely.  It seems like the flame is actually burning above the wood, towards the top of the firebox.  Is that normal?

You mentioned in you last picture, that the logs you put in will burn for 8 hours.  I find myself constantly adding wood to the insert, especially if the damper is open all the way.  Even closed all the way, for an overnight burn, it doesn't last 8 hours.  In the morning I find hot coals, but the blower fan has gone off, which means the insert has cooled below the required temperature to keep it running.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Roospike, thank you.  You are the major reason I chose the PE Summit.  I was thinking of the freestanding stove at first (in the whorehouse red, of course), but after considering the kids, the dog, the space needed and the available fireplace, I opted for the insert.
> 
> Although its a bit hard to tell, the fire in your pictures seems to burn stronger than mine does.  I get a nice burn with the damper open all the way.  But on occasion, when I close the damper a bit the flame also lowers significantly. However, as I write now, I have the damper all the way down, and the flame is burning nicely.  It seems like the flame is actually burning above the wood, towards the top of the firebox.  Is that normal?
> 
> You mentioned in you last picture, that the logs you put in will burn for 8 hours.  I find myself constantly adding wood to the insert, especially if the damper is open all the way.  Even closed all the way, for an overnight burn, it doesn't last 8 hours.  In the morning I find hot coals, but the blower fan has gone off, which means the insert has cooled below the required temperature to keep it running.



The flames burning above the wood is the secondary burn, normal & a good thing.
Overnight burn needs the box to be stuffed with large rounds &/or splits. 6"-7"+
Get the new load charred (door cracked open about 10 mins or so), close door then let air intake on high for another 10 or so,then cut air intake lever to about 40%,for about 10 -15 mins, then set air intake all the way to low. that should get you through the night. Oh yeah look at my post "800-850+ temps", Roo has alot of helpful hints in there, and a couple photos of how he loads his rounds/splits for overnight.


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

Thanks Hogwildz.  That's good to hear about the secondary burn.

I'll do some more reading to get a better overnight burn.  However, my main concern is still the heat output.  From everything I read, it sounds like I should be baking in this room.  I'm sitting about 8 feet from the insert now, and its "comfortable".  Not cold, but certainly not baking.  If I move 15 feet away it gets colder and colder.  

I tried the ceilings in reverse and it is better.  I feel less of a draft on me.  It's helped a little, but not completely.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Thanks Hogwildz.  That's good to hear about the secondary burn.
> 
> I'll do some more reading to get a better overnight burn.  However, my main concern is still the heat output.  From everything I read, it sounds like I should be baking in this room.  I'm sitting about 8 feet from the insert now, and its "comfortable".  Not cold, but certainly not baking.  If I move 15 feet away it gets colder and colder.
> 
> I tried the ceilings in reverse and it is better.  I feel less of a draft on me.  It's helped a little, but not completely.


 Try and take a good photo of the fire you have going(if you have a digital camera). I know ya shouldnt rely totally on a thermometer, but I find it helpful as a reference as to were your heat temp is at. tell me what size splits and how many in relation to how full the firebox is. I am new too, but I had the opposite problem, was getting way too hot. Do you have the Summits blower on hi also? automatic or manual?


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

Heres what I have going at the moment. Its several photos, prolly 2 posts.
I haven't figured how to control photos order so I'll describe the best I can.
One is with a flash on camera, shows the firebox lit up by the flash. So you can see what I have for splits as a reference to the heat I am getting.
The other is the same shot pretty muich just no flash to show the minimal flame  but mostly hot glowing coals.
The other is the thermometer and the temp that I am getting from these coals, just under 550 degrees.

Now I don't know what kind of heating for the house you expect. My thermostat is between the living room & the kitchen. About 15-20' from the insert, and set at 66 degrees, yet insert has this area at 73 degrees. Upstairs is naturally warmer. Back of kitchen a lil bit cooler and back room I dunno 70 maybe. Not sure, no temp gauge back here. Last night I had a serious flamer going, with my air leaking door and all and it got to 78 on the thermostat. Fo me that was quite toasty in the living room. I slept with no blanket. The stove with your room sizes is not going to heat your place to 85 or 90 degrees. Might get to 80 or so near the stove. or that room maybe.
You have to be realistic, these are not furnaces, they are stoves, more meant for space heating, although many like myself use them as main heating source. My oil furnace has not fired since I installed this last weekend. 73 in here right now and not bad for 32 outside.


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

I can't get the picture to attach.  How do I attach them?  

I don't have a stove thermometer, so I can't tell what the temperature is on the insert.

The logs are various sizes.  I'd say from 12 to 20 inches of mixed hardwoods.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> I can't get the picture to attach.  How do I attach them?
> 
> I don't have a stove thermometer, so I can't tell what the temperature is on the insert.
> 
> The logs are various sizes.  I'd say from 12 to 20 inches of mixed hardwoods.



when you post, or click edit for your previous post, look above ehere it says preview post & submit post. Click "browse" then pic the photo from your computer., if you are adding more than one, ech time you have to click preview, then add the next, up to 4 within the size limitation. then click submit post if its a new post, or update post if you are revising or adding to your previous post.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

gonna go grab a smoke, brb


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

78 degrees?  I'd kill for 78 degrees (lol).  My thermostat is about 30 feet from the insert in my dining room (behind the kitchen wall), and even with the stove cranked all the way up for hours...has NEVER gone past 70 degrees.


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

I keep trying to attach, but it keeps giving me an error message that the size of the attachment is too big.


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## DonCT (Dec 31, 2006)

Acosta, if you're having trouble with the pics, you can email them to me and I can get them posted. PM me for the address.

As for the heat output, what position do you have your air control in? Also, how long is your chimney run?


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> I keep trying to attach, but it keeps giving me an error message that the size of the attachment is too big.



For me, my Summit get hotter after I shut the air intake lever all the way to low, but make sure you get her fired up good before shutting the lever to low. If your getting secondary burn, it should be hot enough.


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> I keep trying to attach, but it keeps giving me an error message that the size of the attachment is too big.



Yeah , the pics cant be too large otherwise it wont let you add them , you can go to "paint" program in your computer (windows) and make the pictures smaller. 

If you cant figure out how to change the picture size you can send them to me and i will edit them and send them back to you at a smaller size ... roospike@yahoo.com


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> acosta2269 said:
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Hes not getting hot enough, I am guessing he doesn't have the door problem LOL


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

My chimney run is about 25 feet.  Right now my air control is all the way down, but even when its all the way open the room never really gets "too" hot.  The room with the insert is "comfortable", even when its fully burning.  I expected an insert of that size to bake that room and allow some heat to the rest of the house.


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

Could it be the wood I'm burning?  It seems to burn ok, but this is all new to me so I don't really know.

Where does the insert get the air it needs to burn the wood?  The hot air doesn't seem to travel far away from the insert.  It seems as if, hot air is coming out of the insert and then getting drawn back in. Is that possible?


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## DonCT (Dec 31, 2006)

Pics on the way!!


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

If you leave the air damper wide open the wood burns fast but heat the sky as it goes out the chimney.

One you get the wood a burning a little bit close the damper to at least 80% open to get the wood charred and burning some more and it keep the heat in the stove and not up the pipe , one it gets going even better you can lower the damper to around 40%- 25% open.

You can get different kinds of flame out of your wood and as you had seen in my secondary burn film loop there was a lot of secondary burn because of a newly started fire and a lot of gases come off the wood , now with an already fire going / hot coal bed you can get secondary burn after you add more wood and as the fire box heats up you can get a "gohst of flames" floating around at the top of the fire box .......... this is a hot load but the damper has been turned down for long burn times.

Wood has just so much BTU / heat in it and it depends on how you run your damper is to how much heat and how long the wood will burn. 
If you have a few good size logs burning in your stove and the damper is open 25% you will get more heat out of your stove then if you have the damper turned all the way down but will have a shorter burn time.

More wood = more heat / longer burn time depends on how you set the air damper.


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

Here are the pics...Thanks Don.

You can't see the flame, I guess I need to play with the settings on the camera.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Here are the pics...Thanks Don.
> 
> You can't see the flame, I guess I need to play with the settings on the camera.


How come you ain't loading that beast front to back? Not a rule, but they are made for that. No worrys bout wood rolling out.
Whats those black pcs? paper? Do you have a real good coal bed under those pcs of wood? A good, hot coal bed is a must for getting a load to flame up & heat well.
I usually start with some small splits, when I have a couple inches of cherry coals, then I load it on.
Are you burning 24/7? or just lighting here & there.
After a couple days of continuous burning, you'll have a real nice bed of coals.


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

Looks like in the pics that your loading your wood East to West ? If you load your stove front to back / North to South your stove will run different and N to S you can get more heat out of your stove as the front air inlet blows air at the logs as well as between the logs.

*EDIT: * Ha Hogwildz , we posted at the same time ...........we are thinking the same brotherman , now I'm getting worried ! hehehehe


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

What black pieces of paper?  The black things in the insert are charred wood.  What does loading it "front to back" mean?


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

I'd also be careful about that stocking hanging there. Kinda close.


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
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nope , I would say the door issue is OUT with this one.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> What black pieces of paper?  The black things in the insert are charred wood.  What does loading it "front to back" mean?



ok on the charred pcs.
Front to back means one end of the split is facing front, the other end facing back. Oppsosite the way they are in the photos. As Roo said, the air intake is in front, If you put the wood in front to back, the air will pass through between the splits and get more air to the back for more fire & heat. Rather than hitting a wall of wood.
Leave about a 1/2" gap or so between the pcs of wood from eachother.


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

I understand now.  Sorry for all the newbie questions.  

I have been burning 24/7.  In the morning there is a nice bed of coals and she usuallys starts right up.  I have let her get completely cold a couple of times when we weren't going to be home for a while and to give it a good cleeaning, but for the most part it's been 24/7.


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> What black pieces of paper?  The black things in the insert are charred wood.  What does loading it "front to back" mean?



loading the wood stright in . When loading wood in sideways (east to west) the air hits the front first log and doesnt really get to the back logs for full burn.

< see pic for front to back / north to south loading >

Your PE Summit owners manual suggest loading wood front to back for proper burn.


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> acosta2269 said:
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Damn ...........I'm slow to post again , Hogwildz ..........thats twice now bro. LOL  :lol:


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

Ok guys, Roo you know this better than I, its real late here I need sleep. Roo knows Summits, listen to his great advice!
Night guys.


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## Hogwildz (Dec 31, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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LOL,Yeah but you have the fancy diagram  Besides, your the Summit pro LOL, I am a pro newb. 
I gotta sleep. My eyes are burning. I'll check in in the morn. Night gentlemen


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

So for the most part, it sounds like I just having been using the insert properly?  I will try loading it front to back and managing the controls better.  Could it also be the wood I'm burning?


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
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Cool beans brotherman ............check ya back in tomorrow. Hogwildz has left the building .......


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## acosta2269 (Dec 31, 2006)

Gentlemen,

Thank you for all of your help tonight.  I will try your suggestions and let you know how I make out.  

Have a happy and safe New Year!


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> So for the most part, it sounds like I just having been using the insert properly?  I will try loading it front to back and managing the controls better.  Could it also be the wood I'm burning?



Sure , could be the wood ......... that can a will make a huge difference in how you stove will run.

They say ............ When adding a new load of wood to hot coals your wood should lite off and start burning on its own with in at least 90 seconds . ( i think it should be more like under 40 seconds )

Does your wood bubble and hiss out of the ends of the splits ?
Does your newly added wood lite right away when added to the coals ?
Do you have to leave the air damper open for what seems a long time to get the wood burning ?

My rule of thumb for the HARD woods is to be cut, split and seasoned for 2 years to burn at its best.

You need at least 9 month to season low hard woods and med. grade woods. 

Cutting a dead tree down 2 months ago and getting to splitting at some point does not qualify as good seasoned wood.

If the wood come from a wood dealers and you are told it si "seasoned wood" does not mean its is really seasoned wood.


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## Roospike (Dec 31, 2006)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Gentlemen,
> 
> Thank you for all of your help tonight.  I will try your suggestions and let you know how I make out.
> 
> Have a happy and safe New Year!



Good deal  , keep us updated and we'll be here all week sitting around the "fire pit".  %-P


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## seaken (Dec 31, 2006)

Can't tell from the pictures - where is your fireplace located in the "L"? Is it on an outside wall? How much of the masonry mass outside the building as opposed to inside the building?

Also, do you have a proper block-off plate installed? An insulated liner? And yes, your wood could definitely be a contributing factor. The more energy it takes to boil off the moisture the more energy is lost up the chimney.

Can you take more pics? Outside view?

Sean


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## mikenr1c (Dec 31, 2006)

There is no way to prevent your wife from wrapping in the blanket.  My wife does this in August. - regards, Mike


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## Robbie (Jan 1, 2007)

acosta2269, most of the wood pros have checked in it seems.

                   I am not a pro, but this is my second season burning wood. 

                   Just for a reference for you, and surely not to brag...............  

                   I have an Avalon mission wood stove (see pic/link) with a mouse cage type blower on the rear. My house is 1850 sq ft, standard ceilings, 2 story cape cod style with 3 br and 2 full bath, 1 upstairs with 2 full br.

http://www.warmingtrendsstoves.com/mission_ws.html

                   My stove temp (damper slightly closed to prevent over burn) usually stays at an easy 350 to 450 average all day/night burn temp. 

                   At these temps my entire house stays at around 76 to 78 degrees, and easily can go to 80 if I let the stove heat up to about 500 degrees...........this is with my blower on 1/4 turn on (LOW) on a reastat control.

                   I can honestly say the temps coming off the top of my stove from the blower are so hot at a distance of 2 to 3 feet that it could probably burn your skin easily if you held it more than 1 minute or so.

                   I think there is something wrong with your operations, but it's really hard to guess, I wished one of these pros lived near you and I bet in a minute they could look at your stove in operation and tell youy exactly what the problem was.

                   You should feel VERY hot heat coming from that big of a stove, if it's cranking like it should be.

                   Please do a good check inside your stove to make sure all your bricks etc. are all in the right place. 

                   When you get your stove loaded with wood, and it is really going, do you almost hear a roar from the fire sucking oxygen into the stove and you should see very large rolling flames over the entire fire box, at this time you should be watching very closely the temps of your stove, not to exceed your stoves reccomendations etc.

                   At this time, you should feel REALLY hot air, I mean so hot it feels like it will burn you, this is when you should make this thing talk to you (and your wife) at a cautious, controlled burn, for the next couple hours, during this time you should be pumping a lot of heat into your whole house.

                   This may need to be done for several hours to bring your home up to a toasty temp, where walls and everything within your home is now warm, and you and your wife are nice and warm...............then you can sit down and enjoy your stove.

                   You sometimes have to make that thing honk if it's cold outside, in other words, kick that four barrel in for a few miles and see what happens...................carefully controlled long hot burns produces a very warm house.

                    I am a firm believer in getting your entire house warm inside first, this includes furniture, walls, all appliances etc, it all has to be warm or your house can never get as warm as it could. The only way to do this it to keep that heat coming, once you reach upper temps. it's much easier to hold that heat.

                   If you try this and it does not work, then break it down and tell us what parts did not work.

                   Sorry for the long post............  


                   Robbie


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## G-rott (Jan 1, 2007)

I agree with Robbie,  

I think many people burn too little wood on start up in order to conserve.  Get the heat out into the house, warm her up good then, and only then, damp'er down and maintain.  

This is also a problem with the comfort level and programable set back type thermostats in forced air heating systems... the house always feels cold.   The air temp may be 74 but the walls and furnature are still 65 frome the night time set back.  

Try cranking that monster up for a while.  

Garett


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## acosta2269 (Jan 24, 2007)

It's been a while since my last post, and I continue to have heat issues.  I've been loading the wood better and have sealed up some drafts, which made a small difference, but not much.  I put a thermostat on the face of the insert (over the door) and for the most part it reads between 400 - 600 degrees.  The hottest I've ever seen it was 625.  I came across the followingis thread which is a bit different setup than mine.  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/6037/  Can I have a similar problem?  One thing I do notice is that once I stop feeding the fire, the stove cools off fast.  My fireplace has what looks like an outside vent directly off to the side of the firebox.  It also has 2 vents (holes) on the sides of the chimney on the inside of the house (maybe for venting????).  Could either of these be the problem? 

I'm going to contact the retailer/installer and ask him to take a look at it.  What specific questions about the install should I ask him to help determine if there's a problem?


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## BrotherBart (Jan 24, 2007)

At 600 degrees that stove should be tossing some heat with the blower running. Do you clean all of the ashes out of that insert often?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

I clean it out daily (every morning), leaving an inch or two of coals to get the morning fire going.  I usually clean out the ashes and throw a log on top and the fire starts right back up.  The stove's been running 24/7 for weeks now.  It seems like the stove is getting hot (600 degrees).  I'm just not sure where the heat is going (maybe up the chimney).


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## BrotherBart (Jan 25, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> I clean it out daily (every morning), leaving an inch or two of coals to get the morning fire going.  I usually clean out the ashes and throw a log on top and the fire starts right back up.  The stove's been running 24/7 for weeks now.  It seems like the stove is getting hot (600 degrees).  I'm just not sure where the heat is going (maybe up the chimney).



Bingo. Believe it or not leave a couple of inches of ash in the bottom of the stove at all times and it will heat up faster and give off  heat better and longer. I am not sure anybody can explain why, except that it insulates the bottom of the firebox, but all old wood burners know it to be true. Leave a couple of inches in there next time and give it a shot.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

I've tried leaving more coals at the bottom.  I've left 2", 3", 4", 5" and more.  I haven't noticed if it effects how the wood burns, but it didn't make a noticable difference in the heat output.  

Could I be losing heat up the chimney?  Could it be a draft or liner problem? I've been in homes where you couldn't walk in the same room as the stove without breaking a sweat.  On my insert you can stand RIGHT in front for a long while before it gets uncomfortable (if ever).


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

NOT THIS THREAD AGAIN ! 

hahaha , Just kidding ......... I'm going back through and re-reading the thread.

You have 1000 sf front room and kitchen , cathedral ceiling in the front room . (w/Ceiling fan)

big *cubic feet* to heat , big stove to heat it . 



> I put a thermostat on the face of the insert (over the door) and for the most part it reads between 400 - 600 degrees.





> One thing I do notice is that once I stop feeding the fire, the stove cools off fast.



This sounds very odd , once that stove is up to 600° with all that mass it takes a long time to cool down.

**********************************************************************

*Question#1 what were your heating bills before the wood stove ?

Question#2 does the insert have a block off plate in the chimney?

Question#3 Do you have and out side air kit installed on the stove?
is there an outside air supply to the fireplace?*

I am wondering about the cathedral ceiling , insulation , the hearth ............and why the summit is cooling down fast.

What do you mean "once I stop feeding the fire, the stove cools off fast." Sounds like your feeding the stove like a coal train .


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Roo...hello again.  Thank you for all of your help last time.  Unfortunately, I'm still not getting great heat.

I moved into the house (3,500 square feet in total) 2 years ago.  In 2004-2005 I used approx. 1,400 gallons of oil ($3,000).  In 2005-2006 I used approx 1,200 gallons ($3,000).  Milder winter in 2005-2006, but higher oil prices.

The house is only 5 years old.  As far as I can tell there seems to insulation in the outer walls and in the cathedral ceiling.  I had a ceiling fan installed in the cathedral ceiling (I thought that was the problem at first) and there was insulation in the ceiling.  I was careful to cover the hole pretty good before I sealed it up to avoid drafts.  

The Hearth is made of stone, all the way up to the ceiling.  On each side of the Hearth there is a hole into the fireplace.  I'm not sure why.  Neither did the local building inspector.  Possibly for venting.  There is also a vent on the outside of the house off the chimney (directly off to the side of the firebox).  Could this vent be effecting the performance?  

I have the Summit blower on automatic.  It kicks on/off when it reaches a certain temps.  It usually shuts the blower off within a couple of hours of feeding the stove.  On overnight burns, it's rare that the blower is still going in the morning.  I haven't monitored outside temp vs shut down, but for the most part, it only stays on a couple of hours from the point that I put my last logs in.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

I just saw the rest of your questions...

I don't know if it has a block off plate to the chimney.  I had it "professionally" installed.  If it's an extra charge, then probably not.  I paid $375 total for installation.  I will ask.
No outside air kit intalled.  I asked the retailer/installer about and said it was not necessary and that he had never installed one.  I should have known better at that point, but because of you, I insisted on getting a PE (lol), and he was the only local retailer.  I think that vent that I mentioned earlier is probably the outside air supply on the fireplace.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 25, 2007)

Roo and I are on the same page here Lets make the assumption the stove is preforming as it should. 
Now supose your home is loosing heat at a rate  a little less than you summit generates?
 here is part of what I am thinking the 9' ceiling presents a different heating situation than the common 7'6" meaning heat always rises and fills up the top layer and works down
 9' ceilings also adds about 20% more vollume to heat. Sitting on a couch puts you in the lower third of the room height. An equilvent  comparison in a 7'/6" ceiling height
 that couch would have elevated 18'  to matche the same heat area.

 I need to know more about your home when it was built windows glass area especially in the room of the stove. IS it located on the first floor over your basement?
 tell me about your current heating system and the btu output did it carry the home susficiently before the summit? What was your fuel usage?  Is the basement ceiling insulated?

 do you have thermopane double glazed windows?  int the upstairs is there an attic pulldown stairs? 

 Here is what I am thinking if the stove is opperating within range then the home dymanics may be  the missing piece to feeling the heat I agree with all posters here that stove should be cooking.

Other questions were asked before but you hqave yet to answer them is the chimney fire place located on an exterior wall did you use a full lenght liner? is there a damper block off plate?
 It is possible that you are loosing too much heat up that chimney With the stone front it is impossible due to the un even surfaces that you can ever get a proper seal with the suround. That being so all around that suround is room air escaping up that chimney especially without a block off plate.  Another think could be happening if fully lined cold air is settling down the flue and cooling your convection scroud cooling the heated air before it enters the room a block off plate would prevent this from happening Again is there a bl damper block off plate?

 WE all are guessing here because we need more info


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## begreen (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm wondering if those holes are a rudimentary outside air supply. Do you have any incense? If yes try lighting a stick or cone outside. Then put it near or in that vent on the outside of the chimney. I would be curious if the scent of the incense comes into house in the room with the fireplace.


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

acosta2269 , i think you and Elk post about the same time so let him catch up on your reply.

#1 a lot of hearths have front vents , I'm not a big fireplace hearth expert but there built in for a reason.

#2 The thing that gets me the most is that you have to keep feeding the fire and the blower fan only stays on for a short time .............you stove is cooling off fast and it shouldnt.

#3 you said no out side air kit is installed on the "stove" but there is an air supply on the outside of the house / hearth. no chimney block off plate ..................ELK?


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

Here is a hearth with vents ...........


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Elk, thank you for joining in.  

The home is 5 years old.  It was already built, so I'm not certain on specs/quality of the windows.  The lock on the windows have an "AW", which I assume is Anderson Windows, which I thought to be good quality.  

The stove is located on the 1st floor (Family Room) directly over the boiler.  The house has forced heat, which did an "ok" job of heating the house before the summit.  But to be honest, I never raised the thermostat high enough to get the house toasty warm (too expensive).  Last season I burned 1200 gallons of oil.  The year before I burned 1400 gallons.  The basement ceiling is insulated with R-19. 

The upstairs attic has a pulldown staircase.  Aside from the pulldown stairs it has a heavy plywood door that closed above it (on the attic side).  The attic floor is insulated with R-30.

The chimney is on an exterior wall.  I don't know what type of liner they used or if they used a damper block off plate.  

I think I got it all (lol)


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Roo, my vents are on the sides of the fireplace.  Facing the side walls, not facing forward.


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

Front room is on one side of the "L" and the kitchen on the other part of the "L" .

 Where are the bedrooms what is the other 2500 sf? ( i can find it or remember reading that )
 Is only the front room cathedral ceiling ?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

The family room and the kitchen are basically one big room in an "L" shape.  Picture the stove in the bottom (right) tip of the "L".  The kitchen is in the top of the "L".  These rooms are closed off with a door and 2 small openings to a living room, dining room and a hallway.  The bedrooms are all on the second floor.  I keep the door closed to the living room creating a closed in "L", except for the 2 doorway openings to the Dining room and hallway.

Yes, the only cathedral ceiling (about 18 feet high) is directly over the fireplace for about 10 feet out.  All other ceilings are 9 feet.


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm still wondering about this question ............



> #3 you said no out side air kit is installed on the “stove” but there is an air supply on the outside of the house / hearth. no chimney block off plate


 
You said it right , "the heat is going somewhere" ..........I know for a fact a Summit dont cool off that quick. 

Maybe one of our fireplace / hearth / block off plate / outside air supply guru's will jump in on this one.

Someone posted a wile back about an outside air supply to there fire place that was cooling things off real quick , i cant remember the outcome of the thread.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 25, 2007)

I have to go back and re read the first post you presented but Begreen is thinking what I am now thinking an

 Sounds to me you have a heatalator type fireplace supplied with outside air.  now if the outside air is not encased or piped threw the bricks iand just an oppening allowing thew heatalator metas shroud to be exposed to cold air that could act to draw heat away from youe stove Unfortunately opposites attract warn air is drawn towards coold air If warn air is being drawn from your stove then it is not going to the room. I read your manual and unfortunately it states if installed ina heatalator type fire place thoes grills can not be blocked off. another thing could be happening  the shroud is being warmen enough that it could be drawing cool room air in those bottom vents which inturns cools the shroud and wicks more heqt from you stove it could be a vissious cycle made even worse with out a block off


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

How can find out if this is the case?  And if it is, how can I correct it?


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## begreen (Jan 25, 2007)

There are too many unknowns here. Most important are - is a blockoff plate really installed? and how was this fireplace constructed?  You and we need more information. Try the incense test. Lets first see what those holes are for. Can you post a picture of the interior ones too?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

BeGreen, thank you for your help as well.  

I will try the test tomorrow, although it may be a bit difficult to reach.  The back yard slopes down and the vent is about 25 feet from the floor.  

Wouldn't the incense smell go into the vents and up the chimney?  Would the scent come into the house?


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## begreen (Jan 25, 2007)

That all depends on where that outside vent leads to. If it leads to the holes by the hearth, you'll smell it. If not, where does it go? It's really hard to determine what was installed or why without being there. That's where pictures can sometimes come in handy. If you are having problems posting, let us know and we'll walk you through it. Or PM me with pictures.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

I will try in the morning as well as post some pictures.  I will also call the retailer/installer and ask the following questions:

1.  Was a block off plate installed?
2.  Confirm that a full lenght liner was used

What else should I ask them about the installation?

Also, if this turns out to be the problem, is it correctable?  Can I install an outside air kit to utilize that vent and solve this problem?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 25, 2007)

Mu summit insert is installed into an old heat-a-lator fireplace. It too has two low vents & two hi vents built into the surrounding brick face. It may be possible that your vents are sucking the heat from the insert & taking it up the chimney. If your old fireplace vents, vent outside (mine doesn't). I bet your heat is being sucked right out and never making it into the room. I understand the manual says no altering the vents. Mine were blocked off with 3/4" plywood under the grilles. The previous owner did that due to the fact as he says " it was sucking the heat out and causing cold air drafts. I know it says not too, but you might want to try and block those old vents and see if that makes a difference. If they are no longer in use, I don't see what harm it can cause. At least you can see if it makes a difference and rule it out, or maybe you'll find its the cause. That Summit should be HOT to stand in front of. And you can't mistake it, its HOT.
Note that my vents did not open to the firebox, or to the outside. Looks more like air went in lowers vents, through a chmber along side the heat-a-lator sides, and back out the upper vents. Another thing to check, is your stone along side & above the insert getting very hot? Mine with the old fireplace got REAL HOT, now its barely warm.
If its hot, then that may be another indicator that your losing heat up, beind or somewhere around that old firebox.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Hogwildz, how are you?  

Standing in front of the insert is not extremely HOT.  It blows warm/hot air out, since day 1, which is why I started this mess.  

The stones on the face of the chimney are not hot.  They are slightly cooler than room temperature.  

How do I know if I have a Heat-a-lator fire place?  How can I find out what "type" of fireplace it is and how those vents are being used?  Is that something that the building dept would have on file in the house plans?


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## elkimmeg (Jan 25, 2007)

blocking the vent may aor may not be a good idea those vents may be neede for air circulation  that cools that suround and prvents from heating up too much and torching near by combustiables they could be part of the clearance listing to combustiables

 God I hate metal pre fabs nothing but a cheap way to install a fire place every one leaks cold air when not in use. In all the years building, I never installed one or had one installed ,in the homes I built.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 25, 2007)

Just hanging out on the side listening in. Summit that won't heat. Can't be, can't happen.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

I don't remember exactly what the inside of the fireplace was, but it definitely was not metal.  It was some sort of stone (or cement at the least).  Could it still have been a pre-fab covered with some sort of stone?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Brother, its happening.  My wife is sleeping on couch right now, about 5 feet from the stove covered in a blanket and is still cold.


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Just hanging out on the side listening in. Summit that won't heat. Can't be, can't happen.



Just keep hanging out BrotherB , its not that the Summit is not heating, its acosta2269 heating the state and not the house.  ;-)


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## BrotherBart (Jan 25, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta be brother.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

That's funny and probably true.  The stove is heating up to around 600 degrees.  Problem is, very little of that heat is coming inside the house.


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have a few Summit owners here on Hearth.com that are from NewYork , now you know why New York hasnt had much snow.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 25, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Hogwildz, how are you?
> 
> Standing in front of the insert is not extremely HOT.  It blows warm/hot air out, since day 1, which is why I started this mess.
> 
> ...



First tell sign is the firebox is made of like 3/16" or 1/4" steel. the walls, back top, damper area, everything in the firebox is steel. Except the floor.
Heat-a-lator has been around for years. The original part of this plce, which was a 1 story 2 room cabin was buint in the 60's so I was told. And it was confirmed heat-a-lator fireplaces were pretty popular back then. The vents kind of give it away also. But if that firebox is all steel inside except for maybe the floor, its a heat-a-lator.
Not cheap thin steel like some cheapo pre-mades today. I bet you have one. 

Elk: Mine is a brick over block wall. That whole wall is. No combustibles untill the second story. Sunken living room, so about 12'-15'' to the next story. And also 2'x2' block chimney lined with terracotta. No heat damage going to happen here. I don't know what acosta's construction is. But I would almost put money thats where his heat is going.

Edit: Ok I didn't see your last post till I posted this already. If its a heat-a-lator its steel, like I said all but floor. I have no clue what you have there. Whae is the wall the fireplace is in made out of? are there combustibles anywhere near the fireplace in the wall, in back, etc. I still think your losing the heat out those vents. Prolly an outside air vent, and like others said, your heating the neighborhood.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 25, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We had small snow showers here the last few days, problem is, it won't lay here. I think the Summit has a several square mile heating radius 
No wonder my neighbors are so nice to me .
Some days however, its ok here, but snowing over the nuke plant, thats no BS either. Weird stuff.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

So I tried the incense into the outside vent this morning.  The vent seems to be drawing in the smoke, but I don't smell anything inside the house.  To be honest though, it may be tough to actually smell inside the house.  Mixing with the cold outside air, I'm not sure how apparent the smell would be, but it was drawing the smoke into the vent.

I also spoke to the installer this morning.  He was "shocked" that the unit wasn't throwing off more heat.  He DID NOT install a block off plate.  Rather, he stuffed the top "nice and tight" with insulation.  He said that was "better" at avoiding drafts and keeps the pipe from moving.  

He was going to call Pacific Energy to see if they had any thoughts.

Here are the pictures of the inside and outside air vents.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 25, 2007)

> He DID NOT install a block off plate.  Rather, he stuffed the top “nice and tight” with insulation.  He said that was “better” at avoiding drafts and keeps the pipe from moving.



 Im making light of this statement  so keep on smiling

*He said that was “better” at avoiding drafts and keeps the pipe from moving.*

 Let me interpet this installers speak 

I'm bs-ing you because I was too freaking lazy to do it the right way He might have had some creedence in the avoiding drafts  
but the next statment was comming out the seat of his pants
*keeps the pipe from moving*

After that statement  any else that came from his lips consider lip service. 

 Remember  over the weekend I stated there are idiot installer still trying to use common fiberglass insulation as the block off   Found in the post ,
where it was exploded out during the flashback explosion that blew the suround off and knocked the tea pot off the stove

 When speaking to this installer again ask him this can he provide proof  tha  common insulation is listed for that application?
 like the listing from ownes corning where it has been tested and listed for that application.  did he take the paper backing offf?

 Ask him the temperature range of common insulation then ask him if it is approved for direct contact with the liner

Ask him is he would direct you to where ASTME or sillimar agencies approves of this type of installation and substitution of approved block off material?

 Did he pull a permit for the install was  it inspected and approved?..  Human nature would now be wondering what other short cuts he made


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Elk,

I got the same feeling that he was BS'ing me when I spoke to him.  The insulation is probably cheaper and easier for him to install, which is why he used it.  

I did file for a permit before the install.  The building inspector came the other day and he really didn't look at the stove all that much.  He asked me to get an affidavit from the installer on the specifics of the installation.  I also mentioned my heat output problem to him and he said he would do a little research and get back to me.  Meanwhile the installer called me back and said he spoke to Pacific Energy and the stove temps of 600 degrees are normal (actually a little high) and stove is operating normally.  I should try burning different wood and keeping the blower fan a little lower (about 1/2 it's capacity).  "Let's see if that works".  I feel like I live is Bizzaro world and everyone keeps passing the buck! (The inspector back to the installer.  The installer back to PE.  PE back to me).

Could the insulation, instead of the block off plate, be causing this?  Is the insulation there dangerous?  Is that not code?  Should I mention it to the building inspector?

He really didn't answer my questions about the outside air supply.  He said they didn't notice one.  If they noticed one during the installation they would have closed it off.  Whatever that means.  It's pretty clear that I have one, so I don't really know what that means.  Could that be the problem?


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## begreen (Jan 25, 2007)

Now I would really want to know how the installer connected the OAK and if any other corners have been cut here?

The outside vent at this point is a complete mystery. If it's venting the stack, that would lead me to wonder if the chimney is brick or just a brick veneered chase. Is there cool air coming from the interior hole on the upper side of the fireplace? Or if you hold an incense stick near it, does it draw air?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 25, 2007)

I would demand removal of that fiberglass insulation & installation of the block off plate. Block off plate is stated right in the manual! Either at damper area, or seal around surround (tightly), if its stone you'll never get it to seal tight. I'd demand a damper blockoff plate.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> I would demand removal of that fiberglass insulation & installation of the block off plate. Block off plate is stated right in the manual! Either at damper area, or seal around surround (tightly), if its stone you'll never get it to seal tight. I'd demand a damper blockoff plate.



Is that what the block off plate does?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Now I would really want to know how the installer connected the OAK and if any other corners have been cut here?
> 
> The outside vent at this point is a complete mystery. If it's venting the stack, that would lead me to wonder if the chimney is brick or just a brick veneered chase. Is there cool air coming from the interior hole on the upper side of the fireplace? Or if you hold an incense stick near it, does it draw air?



I held the incense stick there this morning.  It drew the smoke in.  Not terrible fast (like a vacuum), but it definitely drew it in.  I didn't notice the smell of the incense in the house though.  Maybe it was too diluted with the outside air


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## elkimmeg (Jan 25, 2007)

acosta I'm a pressed fot time but promise to adress some of this issues after bowling 9:00 EST
  I agreee if you are reaching 600 degrees its not the stove or draft or moisture in the wood


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## acosta2269 (Jan 25, 2007)

Elk, Have fun.


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## Roospike (Jan 25, 2007)

You have inside vents on the hearth pulling inside air out and you have outside vents pulling air in and must be up the hearth.

I'm not a hearth / fireplace expert but as we know the fireplace is not very efficient and as to the design of the fireplace with an open fire the designs ( vents ) sound like they are made to keep the hearth and construction cool and keep from overheating. 

To me it sounds like the design for the fireplace is a backfire design for a wood stove insert.

Obviously if a hearth / chimney was designed for max efficiency it would be on the inside of the home like they were many years ago.

The fine line is to figure out the best way to keep the hearth from venting the heat out of the house wile stil being within the design of the fireplace as to how it was built to keep its construction cool. 

Does anybody know if these vents are more to the side of keeping construction cool or to keep fireplace smoke smell going up the chimney ?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

So to prove to myself that I'm not going crazy, I went out and bought a thermometer to try to measure the temperature of the air coming out of the blower.  It's been hanging there for a few hours now and it reads 73.8 degrees.  It hasn't really gone much higher than that.  I know the thermometer works because if I lower it closer to glass (which is boiling hot) the temperature starts to rise, quickly.  The stove temp (on the face of the stove) is 500 degrees but the hanging thermometer reads 73.8 degrees.  Odd!

Shouldn't the temperature of this air out of the blower be higher?  The installer today said the air out of the blower should be around 200 degrees, but judging from the quality of his installation, I don't think he really knows what he's talking about.  Has anyone ever measured this?


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

That just f-n crazy ! ...............

O'......O'........New test , every one test there stove ....................................


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Roo, you thought I was nuts, right? 

It's ok..I thought I was nuts!


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

.......................TESTING...........................................................................




Not sure how the insert surrounds are put together but maybe something is not put together correct ? A panel , a shield not in place or installed right ?

500° temp on the stove and 73° heat out put from the blower , that has to be a magic trick.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

Alright , freestanding Summit , front temp 490° , thermometer 12" away , blower on medium , temperature 178° 

Not an insert test so it will differ but 105° difference ?!?! I think the insert blower temp should be warmer then a free stander.

Are you sure your Summit is not set on A/C mode ?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

That was my thought from the begining, that something wasn't installed correctly.  It's either not installed correctly, or the vents (inside or outside) are causing the problem.  

I also got some additional information today from the installer...

(1) No block off plate was installed.  He stuffed the top with insulation instead.
(2) He did not use a full flue liner.  Instead he used a 6" - 5 foot liner.
(3) He's clueless!


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Alright , freestanding Summit , front temp 490° , thermometer 12" away , blower on medium , temperature 178°
> 
> Not an insert test so it will differ but 105° difference ?!?! I think the insert blower temp should be warmer then a free stander.
> 
> Are you sure your Summit is not set on A/C mode ?



LOL

And your thermometer was 12" away....mine is about 2" away.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

Found Willhounds Summit install pics , looking at the insert it looks like the suround is 1 piece except for the top shield , couldnt find a pic of the top shield except for once its installed.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 26, 2007)

Every post more and more is disclosed your instalation was short changed de did a direct connect with out a block off plate?  Lets review
 what's happening can you scan in in a copy of the bill for the instalation block off persomnal information I want to see what you paid for and materials listed
  what is your current flue size servicing that fireplace? this is a masonry fire place? was outside air connected to your summit?  Is this fireplace a prefab with vents?
 I want to narrow down the facts because at one time there were two posters with similar problems  One picture I see a vent in a plastered wall. What function does it serve.

I want to know the relationship with the retailer that sold you the stove and the person who installed the stove does he work for the retailer or is he subcontracted?

  Age of the home  did you know in 1998 BOCA national mechanical codes required the installation of outside air feeds for all newly constructed fireplaces.

 I know I an asking for repeat iinfo but weeding threw 7 pages takes time  Humor all followers with my request.   Also any communications with the retailer or the installer.

 the last thing PE wants is for me to call them and tell them Roospike is pissed at them.  PS PM ne your town and the dealers name 

 In  the summer of 1996 I persented a mechanical seminar for the entire eastern states building inspector's convention all states east of the 
Mississippi (hey did I spell that correct) River I have contacts at your state level  to drop a dime on


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

Combustion Air
Consult local building codes regarding combustion air supply.
Intake or combustion air can be supplied to the Insert in one of
two ways:
1) Outside air supply: Remove cover from ash clean out in
existing fireplace. Place a rodent screen in place of the
cover. Install the Insert as described in the "Installation"
section, making sure not to cover the opening of the air
inlet. When installation is complete, seal surround to
fireplace and anywhere else air may enter. This will ensure
combustion air is drawn from outside the house and into
the 7" x 2" intake at the lower rear of the appliance.

2) Room air supply: Remove the 4" knock-out plug from
either casing side prior to installation (Fig. #11). Install the
Insert as described in the "Installation" section. The Insert
will now draw its air from the room through the front.

**************************************************************
This is what i have found ,
manual does not show picture of outside air supply (1)

Pictured below is the top panel of the surround of the insert , the other picture of the room supply air knock out of the surround.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Here's the invoice....


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Here's the invoice....



scan too small


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

To summarize...

-No block off was installed, instead they stuffed fiberglass insulation to "stop draft and hold the pipe in place"
-A 5 foot liner was installed (6 inches wide)
-No outside air kit was connected to the insert
-Fireplace has 2 interior vents on the sides of the stone (about 5 feet from the floor).  The vents are in the stone work (off to the sides (not on the plaster wall)  Also has 1 exterior vent (an outside air supply?). 
-From what I remember of the inside of the fireplace (how quick we forget) is that is was stone/cement.  Definitely not metal (at least not on the exposed part).   
-I don't know if its a pre-fab fireplace.  I asked the building inspector to look it up on the building plans and the plans said "Superior/or equivalent".  I'm not sure what that means.  Is Superior a brand name of a Pre-Fab?
-The retailer is a family owned business.  The sons of the owners did the installation.
-House was built in 2001
-I spoke to installer today and he was "SHOCKED" that I wasn't getting more heat.  He said it was possible that the insulation fell down.  "Unlikely, but possible".  He asked to me to shut stove down and see if I feel a draft coming in from the insert when its not running.  I'm letting the fire die down now and should be out by the morning so I can test for draft.  He has no clue about the outside vents and ignores it everytime I bring it up.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

scan


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

perfect.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

God I am glad I did my install myself. 
The OAK is in the back, there is no photos for it in the manual I don't think.
The side hole for Air from room, in manual says on right side, In reality its on left. You have to break the lil circle out (4"), You can look throught the grille to see if they did break the circle out on the side. The sides & back casings are 1 pc. each. the top is a two pc casing. in your one photos showing the blower on right top side, what is that hanging between the blower outlet & the first casing diverter? A wire of some sort?
When blower is on high, do you at least feel a good bit of air blowing out the front top? I am wondering if the blower might be sucking cooler air from the chimney area. Fiberglass will not stop draft, and I doubt he installed it tight up there to begin with. I still say try covering the vents for the old fireplace and seeing if there is a difference. I think at this point its prolly a combo of things. But it ain't the insert itself.
Shame you ain't close, I'd say buy a full liner, pull it out and do it right. I'd help ya. I am truly losing faith in dealers anymore. He clearly did NOT install as oper manufacturers instructions. I am a newb and mine ws done better by myself. 
Hang tight man, these guys will get you through this. That Summit when installed correctly, will be a pleasant surprise. Shame you got a raw deal. But should be fixable.

Edit, I could be wrong about OAK on back. Not sure how that works with these. Seems like they say have a hole with screen to keep rodent out and thats about it, seal the surround tight and done. Strange.
Ok sorry there is a 9" x 2" intake lower rear of insert for OAK


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

HW , Whats the temp coming out the top front of your insert ands at whats stove temp ?


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## DriftWood (Jan 26, 2007)

Is the duct work around the fire box clear of debris? Could be simple blockage of hot air to exit and by pasing the exit out the top up the stack instead of out the front. I did read it all, you will get it fixed, just keep trying! 
MY 2¢


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> HW , Whats the temp coming out the top front of your insert ands at whats stove temp ?


Stove temps been around 600-650 near front corner of door last few nights, finally cold here. I aint got a thermometer to measure the blown air, Id say between 175-200 degrees though, Def MORE than 78 degrees or whatever he is getting.

Correction 700* just checked, 9* outside with 15 mph wind and 71 in here. Going to have to insulate the basement wall sills. Basements around 50* but floors are chilly on bare feet


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> God I am glad I did my install myself.
> in your one photos showing the blower on right top side, what is that hanging between the blower outlet & the first casing diverter? A wire of some sort?
> When blower is on high, do you at least feel a good bit of air blowing out the front top? I am wondering if the blower might be sucking cooler air from the chimney area.



I'm not sure which picture you're talking about.  the one picture has a wired thermometer hanging in front of the blower.  The readout is above on the mantle but the sensor hangs down by that wire.  I'm not sure if that's the picture you're talking about.



> Hang tight man, these guys will get you through this. That Summit when installed correctly, will be a pleasant surprise. Shame you got a raw deal. But should be fixable.



I'm hanging in there.  I have all the confidence in the world in the people on this forum.  A hell of a lot more than my installer!  I've been the one giving him suggestions.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
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Sure...keep rubbing it in.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

doh, double post.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

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We'll get ya fixed up man. What area you in? If your close, I'll come help you out.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for the offer.  I'm about an hour north of NYC, probably a little too far.


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## Gunner (Jan 26, 2007)

Had a long post written and lost it....and it's late, don't you just hate that.

Don't know how I missed this thread back in Dec. but this is the first time I saw it.

IMO not enough draft and tons of heat loss out that chimney, I bet a full liner and block off plate cures the problem. 

Good luck to you.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the offer.  I'm about an hour north of NYC, probably a little too far.


Hmm, well if you need help, just lemme know. Can't be more than a few hours. Figure your plan, and let me know. I'd personally figure for a blockoff plate, but we have to find where the hot air is going, and where the cold air is coming from. Did you look to see if the installer knocked the inside air circle out on the side casing? You can look thorugh the side surround grille to check. Mine is on the left side as I said earlier. The manual sayd right, but mine was on left, and seeing your blower is on the right like mine, I think yours inside air knock out is also going to be on the left side.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

I think we're narrowing it down (I hope).  I still have questions about if the vents (interior and exterior) are effecting the insert.  How can I find out if they are factoring into this? I have a meeting with the building inspector tomorrow morning.  Is there anything I can ask him to help me determine if the vents are also part of the problem?


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

Here is one thing i do not understand .................

If the stove is made for an outside air kit / out side air supply and outside air IS supplied to a stove the stove should put out hotter then 73° from the top of the stove when the thermometer shows 500°


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

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I checked the left side and the side is still in tack.  The hole was not punched out.  I can't tell on the right side, because the blower is in the way.

Should it be punched out?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> I think we're narrowing it down (I hope).  I still have questions about if the vents (interior and exterior) are effecting the insert.  How can I find out if they are factoring into this? I have a meeting with the building inspector tomorrow morning.  Is there anything I can ask him to help me determine if the vents are also part of the problem?



I would ask him, since the old firebox is not in use. And the insert has a casing & such. Can you block the old vents off to keep drafts out.
I would also at least temporarily block them up and see if it helps any. Its easy enough to do,and you can always unblock them. 
Last time I am going to ask. Did you look through the side grille to see if the inside air outlet is knocked out? Its a 4" hole in the left side gray casing down near the bottom. I am trying to determine where your air is being brought into the insert from.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Here is one thing i do not understand .................
> 
> If the stove is made for an outside air kit / out side air supply and outside air IS supplied to a stove the stove should put out hotter then 73° from the top of the stove when the thermometer shows 500°



Wouldn't the outside air supply have to be "hooked up" to the insert with an Outside Air Kit of some sort?  It currently isn't.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Here is one thing i do not understand .................
> 
> If the stove is made for an outside air kit / out side air supply and outside air IS supplied to a stove the stove should put out hotter then 73° from the top of the stove when the thermometer shows 500°


The outside air supply does not connect directly to the stove, they say to use the ash cleanout with a piece of screen over it, and back the stove up to it, being careful not to cover it. If his front temp is 600 or what not, that blower air has got to be hotter than 73*. Its got to be. Now if he actually doesn't have outside air, and they didn't knock the side knock out in the side casing, for inside air draw, he may not be getting free flowing air to the blower. That may be the problem.
BTW how do you do the "degree" symbol on a kewboard? LOL


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
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Yes it would have to be hooked up to get the correct supply , but even if the supply line is not hooked up and its drawing it air from a air leak from the outside and from around the outside of the insert you should still be getting hot air from the blower.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
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NO by the manual, its a 9" x 2" intake on the rear lower part of the insert. You would take the cover off your ash cleanout, if there is one (do you remember there being an ash cleanout in that old firebox?) or they would knock the 4" knockout in the side casing , then it would take inside air for intake air. Page 8 of the manual top left corner. Give it a read.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

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hahahahaha , i waited over a year for somebody to ask me that , YOUR THE FIRST ! 

************************************************************************
degree symbol :

Hold your "Alt" key the same time you type in 248 on your key pad on the right. °


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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Ok, you only use one or the other, Outside air, which is drawn in the lower rear intake from an old ash cleanout in the extisting fireplace.
Or the inside air drawn from that circle on the left side casing. Which yours is not knocked out. There wont be one on the blower side. Just the left side one.
So do you remember there being an ash cleanout in the old fireplace? THey might not have it set up for either, which may be part of the probelm.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

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Well I had to ask my daily question LOL °?°


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

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Should that hole be knocked out?  You think that's part of the problem too?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
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It depends if they used an ash cleanout for outside air or not? HOnestly, now that I think about it, your getting temps, and the sotve is going to get air one way or another,
I don't see why it wouldn't just suck through the grille if the plate wasn't knocked out. But like I said, its one or the other, Either the old ash cleanout, or that knockout.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

I dont understand the 4' knock out hole . the insert looks like it draws the house air from the side vents and then out the top.............where does the 4' hole come into play ?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

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I don't remember if there was an ash cleanout.  If there was, I never used it.  I'm almost certain they didn't install it using the ash pan, if it exists.  How do I know if they knocked out the rear hole?


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

Combustion Air
Consult local building codes regarding combustion air supply.
Intake or combustion air can be supplied to the Insert in one of
two ways:
1) Outside air supply: Remove cover from ash clean out in
existing fireplace. Place a rodent screen in place of the
cover. Install the Insert as described in the "Installation"
section, making sure not to cover the opening of the air
inlet. When installation is complete, seal surround to fireplace
and anywhere else air may enter. This will ensure
combustion air is drawn from outside the house and into the
9" x 2" intake at the lower rear of the appliance.

2) Room air supply: Remove the 4" knock-out plug from the
casing right side prior to installation (Fig. #14). Install the
Insert as described in the "Installation" section. The Insert
will now draw its air from the room through the front grill.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Combustion Air
> Consult local building codes regarding combustion air supply.
> Intake or combustion air can be supplied to the Insert in one of
> two ways:
> ...



My money is on niether one.  I will call him tomorrow and ask him.  Is there a way I can figure it out myself in case he BS's me?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> I dont understand the 4' knock out hole . the insert looks like it draws the house air from the side vents and then out the top.............where does the 4' hole come into play ?


I have no clue, but thats what is instructed for room supply air. Which it states knock this out, the insert now will draw its air from the room through the front grille. Maybe it comes through grille, then through that hole, around the outside of the casing to the back intake. Thats the only thing I can think of.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

OK so the manual says the 4" knock out hole is for "house air supply" so if your drawing air from the outside then you leave the 4" knock out on the panel

Sense acosta knock out hole is ..........not knocked out then the stove must be drawing air from the outside .............assuming there is outside air to be supplied.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> OK so the manual says the 4" knock out hole is for "house air supply" so if your drawing air from the outside then you leave the 4" knock out on the panel
> 
> Sense acosta knock out hole is ..........not knocked out then the stove must be drawing air from the outside .............assuming there is outside air to be supplied.


I think this is part of the problem. I don't think he has an ash cleanout, and the knockout should prolly be knocked out to draw air.

Acosta, there is no rear knock out, the inatake in rear is already open, then it travels throught a chamber undernearth to front on bottom where the air control lever is.
You really need to know if there was an ash cleanout that they may have used for outside air intake. If not, you need to knock out that 4" plate in the left side.
Which is easy. I can walk you throught it. You will have to take some pieces off to get to it though.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

no air supply ? could this be it > 

acosta , how much air is coming off the front of your stove from the blower?

the heat from the stove is stil going somewhere but with out the proper air supply to the stove it could be dampened a lot.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> no air supply ? could this be it >
> 
> acosta , how much air is coming off the front of your stove from the blower?
> 
> the heat from the stove is stil going somewhere but with out the proper air supply to the stove it could be dampened a lot.


Exactly, but hes still getting up to temps.
Oh hell, I'll brb need a smoke.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

The blower blows pretty strong.  the air coming off of it is warm (not hot) but it does blow strong.

If I were missing an adequate air supply, wouldn't the fire have trouble burning?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> The blower blows pretty strong.  the air coming off of it is warm (not hot) but it does blow strong.
> 
> If I were missing an adequate air supply, wouldn't the fire have trouble burning?



Thats what I am thinking.
But as far as the blower, The blower takes its air from the grille in front of the blower on right side.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

must be the supply combustion air is separate from the blower supply


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> must be the supply combustion air is separate from the blower supply


Correct, the blower sucks its air through the right frong grille.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

the stove gets 500° at the front so the wood is burning. that does not mean the supply air for the combustion is correct tho.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Blower blows strong.  Fire burns strong (insert reaches 600 degrees).  Very little heat comes out of the blower.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Blower blows strong.  Fire burns strong (insert reaches 600 degrees).  Very little heat comes out of the blower.



again , that has to be magic. air pulled around a 600° stove and the air blows out at 73°


acosta, Do you get fires going looking like this in your stove ? Secondary burn: http://invite.filmloop.com/x?TiGQ7F6rkWljtamOMeI1Ev2k1CLKdfik


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

I say knock the damn side knockout out.
And I am still thinking since there is no damper blockoff, the blower might be somehow drawing cold air from the chimney also and mixing it with the hot air to = just warm air.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Stupid question, but is the air blowing out the top or through the right grille? Wondering if they switched the blower wires during install. Mine came offf a few times, but I did take notice of where they were attached.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

sounds like the blower is drawing really cold air from somewhere besides the room return air inlet on the side of the stove.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

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Yes I do.  AFter your tips from last time, the fire has been burning great.  I'm just not getting any heat.  It looks pretty though.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

another odd ball question ...............is the part with an X in the pictured installed on your surround ? Can you see if its a tight fit ? The shield should fit under the circled tabs


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

I will meet with the building inspector in the morning and let you know what he says.  I will definitely ask him about closing off the vents.  I'll also point out the direct flue instead of the full flue.  I think the manual says it must be a full flue in a pre-fab fireplace.  It also says it must be sealed, which I'm guessing the block off plate does and the insulation doesn't.  Also, the lack of the hole punched out.  Basically, he's not going to approve the inspection of the stove.  Then i can force the installer to install it properly.  Problem is...I don't know if we completely know what all the problems are.  If I do get him to come back and re-install it for these corrections..chances are I won't get him here a 3rd time if we missed anything.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Stupid question, but is the air blowing out the top or through the right grille? Wondering if they switched the blower wires during install. Mine came offf a few times, but I did take notice of where they were attached.



It blows from the top


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> another odd ball question ...............is the part with an X in the pictured installed on your surround ? Can you see if its a tight fit ?



I'm not sure what that piece is


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
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Its the top part of the surround shield of your insert ( as seen in yellow )


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Yes it's installed and looks like a tight fit


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

room air get pulled into the side intake of the stove ( in blue ) and its drawn around your stove and back out the top as hot air ( in red )


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

I need to get to bed.  I have to wake up in a few hours.  I'll let you know what the building inspector says.  

Thanks for all the help.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

good luck . Keep us posted .  ;-)


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## acosta2269 (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> good luck . Keep us posted .  ;-)



Thanks, will do.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 26, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> room air get pulled into the side intake of the stove ( in blue ) and its drawn sround your stove and back out the top as hot air ( in red )



Incorrect bro. The air is drawn as you have it, but the blower blows out the top right horizontally across the top, hits the 2 diverters as you can see in his first pics where the thermometer wire is hanging between the diverters. Air hits these and is forced out the front.

As far as room air intake for combustion, its taken in the left grille, then through the 4" hole in left case sidearound the case to back where it is drawn in through the back intake, then through bottom channel to front air inside stove (at air adjustment lever). 
The blower merely take air in the right grille and blows it to those diverters over the hot insert top & out. If his stove is 600° ) thanks) I cannot see how the top isnt hot and blowing hot air out. As you said its magical. Unless his wired thermometer is wrong.


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## Roospike (Jan 26, 2007)

its got me baffled , Maybe the stove will work better in the summer time to cool the house down ?

100° out side and a new load of wood in the stove will have the front room down to 74° in no time .  %-P


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## begreen (Jan 26, 2007)

Darn interesting the way this is panning out. Sorry, I was out of touch for most of the day. But it is confirming my suspicions. Like I said, first thing I'd really be concerned about was how he connected the OAK. By the sounds of it I wouldn't be surprised it the outside air is being routed through the fan duct and most of the real heat is heading right up the open flue pipe. I think Roo may be close in that it sounds like the top casing and baffle are not in right too. The surround needs to be removed and a proper inspection needs to be done with the manual at hand. 

This sounds like a clueless installer that didn't read the instructions and wasn't going to. How many of these stoves has he installed? zero? Instead did a cheap install that is not doing justice to you or the stove. Have the inspector really do his job, pull the surround and assess whether this is a safe and kosher installation. Stress your concern for fire safety and not following manufacturer's instructions. Ask about OAK requirements and whether they have been satisfied.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 26, 2007)

What if the outside air kit was installed wrong into the exting prefab superior fireplace and it is radiating all kinds of cold air on th that convection shroud
 add the fact the room air is excaping all around the insert facing No block off plate.

That suround has to come off and should be off for inspection  at that point you can ask the inspector about cross-section flue requirememts
 ask the inspector why it was not fully lined per NFPA 211?  My  note book is fired up for  cut and paste of the code.

 I have to switch computers and will add to this in the edit mode

*12.4.5 Connection to Masonry Fireplaces.*
*12.4.5.1*  A natural draft solid fuel-burning appliance such as a stove or insert shall be permitted to use a masonry fireplace flue where the following conditions are met:                               
(1)     There is a connector that extends from the appliance to the flue liner.
(2)     The cross-sectional area of the flue is no smaller than the cross-sectional area of the flue collar of the appliance, unless otherwise specified by the appliance manufacturer.
(3)*     The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with no walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than three times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.
(4)     *The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with one or more walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than two times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.*
(5)     If the appliance vents directly through the chimney wall above the smoke chamber, there shall be a noncombustible seal below the entry point of the connector.
(6)     The installation shall be such that the chimney system can be inspected and cleaned.
(7)     *Means shall be provided to prevent dilution of combustion products in the chimney flue with air from the habitable space*.


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## Gunner (Jan 26, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> That was my thought from the begining, that something wasn't installed correctly.  It's either not installed correctly, or the vents (inside or outside) are causing the problem.
> 
> I also got some additional information today from the installer...
> 
> ...



1,2,3 are your problems for sure, if you add a #4 block those vents, you will be sweating in no time


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## CK-1 (Jan 26, 2007)

In reading this thread.. it seems that acosta2269 setup is very similiar to mine.   I installed my PE Summit with a direct connect kit as well.   But I also installed a block-off plate that came with the kit.   I have a vent inside my open fireplace that leads outside for air supply.    No vents are mounted on the fireplace inside the house.   During installion:

1. Removed damper plate
2. Installed direct connect kit and block-off plate
3. Open sliding plate to outside air supply so stove can get outside air
4. Left knock-out hole for room air intake intact..  - didn't knock it out
5. Slid stove in and connected top pipe to direct connect kit.

Fireplace produces alot of heat and burns nicely..


I saw a picture of the outside vent on the chimney (circled) but didn't see where it was located on the inside of the house.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 27, 2007)

So here's an update...

I met with the building inspector today.  My goal at this point is to have the inspector FAIL the stove so I can get the installer back and install it properly (with a full flue liner and a block off plate) .  

He called Pacific Energy and they told him that a full flue is only required in Canada and for installations in Pre-Fab fireplaces.  For all other installations it's only recommended.    Since he can't confirm yet that my fireplace is a pre-fab unit, he can't make a decision yet.  He said the only way to tell may be to pull the unit and look at the firebox.  With respect to the block off plate, PE requires the unit to be "sealed", but they do not require a block off plate.  They indicated that an alternative way to "seal" the unit is to use insulation.  However, the insualtion to be used is not regular fiberglass insulation.  It's some sort of "special", insulation with a higher fire rating.  Since the inspector can't confirm at this point what type of insulation was used, he can't make a decision yet.  (You can see where this is going!).  He has a call into the installer about these issues as well as the knock-out, which is not knocked out.  So long story short....nothing new yet.

One good thing did come out today...in speaking with the buildling inspector he determined that it was ok to close up the side vents inside the house (I hope he's right).  So I stuffed them with insulation (thanks Hogwildz).  It made an IMMEDIATE difference.  The heat coming off the blower is substantially hotter than it was.  Probably twice as hot.  Now if put my hand in front of the blower, it actually burns after a minute.  The thermometer now reads 132 degrees.  It's getting there.  

A couple of weird things to note. As soon as I stuffed the vents with insulation, the temp on the face of the stove shot up to 700 degrees.  I got a bit scared so shut the damper down all the way.  After a while, it went back to 600 and has stayed there since.  Also, as soon as i insulated the vents, the ceiling fan starting moving (very slowly) on its own.  no power on whats so ever, but it just started rotating on its own.  Whatever I did created a draft strong enough to move the fan on its own.  after a while it stopped moving on its own and I've turned it on since.  Anyone have any ideas for the 2 weird things?


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## begreen (Jan 27, 2007)

Very interesting. It sounds like the insert's heat surround that the stove blower circulates the air through has been compromised and is pulling air from the fireplace. I'm guessing that the vent you plugged with fiberglass was a crude attempt by the fireplace builder at creating a heat vent for the fireplace. Just guessing at this point. The surround will definitely have to come off for a more informed inspection. I am not putting anything out of the realm of possibility with this mis-install. Wish I was closer. I was in your neck of the woods only a few weeks ago.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 27, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Very interesting. It sounds like the insert's heat surround that the stove fan circulates the air through has been compromised and is pulling air from the fireplace. I'm guessing that the vent you plugged with fiberglass was a crude attempt at creating a heat vent for the fireplace. Just guessing at this point. The surround will definitely have to come off for a more informed inspection. I am not putting anything out of the realm of possibility with this mis-install.



According to the building inspector, the vents on the side of the fireplace were put there to vent/disperse heat from the fireplace when in use.  Now that the stove is installed it was actually drawing air from those vents (which also somehow vented outside).  It was drawing outside cold air.  Who knows if he's right.  i know it did make a huge difference in the heat output, but I hope he was right that it was ok to seal off.  It's a little concerning that the stove shot up to 700 immediately after I closed them off.  

I don't think I've solved all the problems yet, but I'm getting there.  The room is definitely warmer, but still not hot the way it should be.  I'd also still like to make sure it's ok to close off the vents.

And, I need to figure out a way to get the installer back to put a full flue liner and a block off plate in.


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## begreen (Jan 27, 2007)

The plenum for the stove should be independent of the fireplace box. Somehow, this has been compromised. That is why is it drawing air from the fireplace box, but it's not supposed to. It should act as an independent unit inserted into the fireplace chamber with sealed connections to the input (OAK) and output (flue).


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## Hogwildz (Jan 27, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> So here's an update...
> 
> I met with the building inspector today.  My goal at this point is to have the inspector FAIL the stove so I can get the installer back and install it properly (with a full flue liner and a block off plate) .
> 
> ...



Being the original vents are not used for the original fireplace anymore. I think your fine closing them up. I would close all of them inside & out, but we do still need to establish where your intake air is coming from. When you do close them up, use a pc of sheet metal and caulk around the perimeter for an air tight seal. The fiberglass will still allow a draft. You can always put a decorative grille on the face to cover the sheet metal, maybe even pant the sheet metal the color of the stone around it.
The stove jumped up in temp because you no longer have cold air swirling around the insert to cool it down. The ceiling fan is spining due to the new extra heat from the insert rising. Reminds me of my moms Christmas candle holder with a horizontal fan suspended over the cadles. The fins on the fan each had a lil rod or wire on them, the heat from the candles would cause the fan to spin causing the lil wires to strike a couple little bells as the fan spun. INHO this is whats happening with your ceiling fan, the heat is rising and enough to cause the fan to spin. I don't remember the technical term.

Now we just need to know if theres a block off plate, which you will have to remocve the surround to see, and where the insert is drawing its combustion air from ( outside air or inside room air). That may be the final phase to get you to normal. Other than the full liner & blockoff plate. Both, I recommend for safety reasons alone.
I am gald you made some progress. Even if the insector does say, full liner needed, is there room in the exisiting to run a 6", and it will be extra. If you want to do yourself, and need help, let me know. I will drive up and help you. As long as your not IN the city LOL.
Getting close to where you should be. Ain't that a good feeling? 

BTW, no matter how hot you get it, the OL will never relinquish that blanket and will NEVER be warm enough LOL.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 27, 2007)

> When you do close them up, use a pc of sheet metal and caulk around the perimeter for an air tight seal. The fiberglass will still allow a draft. You can always put a decorative grille on the face to cover the sheet metal, maybe even pant the sheet metal the color of the stone around it.



The vents (hole in the wall) seem to go behind the wall and down.  I stuffed the insulation in there to plug up all the holes.  I'll have to figure a better way to seal them off.



> Now we just need to know if theres a block off plate, which you will have to remocve the surround to see, and where the insert is drawing its combustion air from ( outside air or inside room air).



No block off plate was installed.  He stuffed insulation up there.  The inspector needs to find out from him if it was regular fiberglass insulation or some sort of "special" insulation. 



> That may be the final phase to get you to normal. Other than the full liner & blockoff plate. Both, I recommend for safety reasons alone.
> I am gald you made some progress. Even if the insector does say, full liner needed, is there room in the exisiting to run a 6", and it will be extra. If you want to do yourself, and need help, let me know. I will drive up and help you. As long as your not IN the city LOL.
> Getting close to where you should be. Ain't that a good feeling?



It does feel good to finally make some progress.  It's still not as hot as it should be, but definitely better than before.  Hopefully the other changes (liner, block off plate, and the air source) will make it 100%.  Thanks again for the offer.  My goal is to somehow get the installer to come back and install it properly (even better if he doesn't charge me anymore money).  I don't how I'm gonna do it if the inspector passes the insert, as is.  I need him to fail it (lol), so I can force the changes.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 27, 2007)

Ok I gave you the code a few post back The manufacturer  also claims that the installation needs to NFPA 211 Compliant
 IT's in the manual on the first or second page. 

Little history here stove models are tested and certified for 5 years part of the certification process is the installation manual. If you stove was re certified prior to 2003 then at the time a direct connection could be code compliant and the manual was written  to reflect that. Also written into the manual is copliance to NFPA 211 which changed the cross-sectional code to only allowing 2x your flue collar area  Your installer should know this its been ineffect for 4 years. Its not like the manufactur listing trumps the code but the manufacturer is telling you to apply the code,
 the listing will not be changed untill re  certification How ever witha direct connection *a block off plate is required *not stuffed in common insulation.

 He inspector can hang his hat on the manufactures listing  because he too probably does not know of the code change.

 There is another point not mentioned here and I think some degree of fairness is needed from both you, your retailer. and installer I viewed you invoice myou did not pay for a full liner or the labor to install it. He charged you for installation for a direct connect your only gripe there is the lack of the block off plate.  this is a grey area he installed you stove per manufactures specs minus block off plate but not to 2003 NFPA 211. The stove is achieving 600+ degrees, so it is drafting well enough and running well enough, that the direct connection is working

 What is hindering your stove could be the block off plate seal plus a greater issue is the Superior built in fire place  Its vents are allowing  the convection shroud to be cooled could the outside air connection be part of this ? yes what if it is connected to that convection chambers of the Superior Fireplace that would really cool the entire fire box which ot robbing heat from the 
Summit.. It is probable the installer never knew  your Superior setup. The setup could have been installed faulty from the get go.. Its covered up in brick now 

Incident after incident, installations into prefab are mired with problems ,not all the time, but a lot higher than masonry setups


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 27, 2007)

Haven't visited the forum for awhile, and just saw this posting now that there are 13 response pages.  Might have an idea for you.

We see a lot of "heatform" fireplaces in our neck of the woods.  Offered by a variety of manufacturers, the heatform was intended to create a flow of heated air into the room while the fireplace was burning.  The masonry firebox was built oversize, to accomodate the heatform (a metal inner firebox), with an airspace between the masonry and the heatform.  The theory was, heat from the fire would transmit through the metal heatform, warming the air in the airspace between it and the masonry.  The heated air would rise and flow into the room through openings above the fireplace, pulling room air into similar openings to the room below the fireplace to be heated in turn.  The photo in Roospike's post on page 4 of this thread shows a typical heatform installation, with two intake grills near the floor and two output grills above.

We've seen a few heatform installations where the intake openings in the room below the fireplace were omitted, and a single intake opening to outside air through the back of the fireplace structure was substituted.  This outside air opening wasn't to supply combustion air directly to the fire, but into the airspace between the heatform and the masonry structure to be heated by the fire and delivered into the room.  I think the theory was that heating air from outside the house and delivering it into the room would counteract room depressurization from the chimney updraft, while introducing pre-heated fresh air into the room instead of "stuffy" recirculated room air.

Whatever the theory, the outside-air heatform didn't work very well, and our Sweep customers complained of anemic performance when burning in colder weather, and cold airflow into the house when the fire wasn't burning.

If this fireplace is an outside-air heatform, your experience is going to be even worse: the outer convection shell on your insert will minimize heat transfer to the airspace around the heatform, likely warming it just enough to draw barely-warmed outside air into the room and counteracting the heated air output of your Summit.

Try blocking the air intake grill on the outside of your fireplace structure and see if that doesn't improve your situation.  If this seems to inhibit the flow of combustion air into the Summit's firebox, remove the knockout plate and burn room air.


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## Roospike (Jan 27, 2007)

Good information and it looks like this issue is coming to a head . Getting the few problem areas fixed with the install and also the odd venting of the fireplace sounds like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow .


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## acosta2269 (Jan 29, 2007)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> Haven't visited the forum for awhile, and just saw this posting now that there are 13 response pages.  Might have an idea for you.
> 
> We see a lot of "heatform" fireplaces in our neck of the woods.  Offered by a variety of manufacturers, the heatform was intended to create a flow of heated air into the room while the fireplace was burning.  The masonry firebox was built oversize, to accomodate the heatform (a metal inner firebox), with an airspace between the masonry and the heatform.  The theory was, heat from the fire would transmit through the metal heatform, warming the air in the airspace between it and the masonry.  The heated air would rise and flow into the room through openings above the fireplace, pulling room air into similar openings to the room below the fireplace to be heated in turn.  The photo in Roospike's post on page 4 of this thread shows a typical heatform installation, with two intake grills near the floor and two output grills above.
> 
> ...




Thanks, Tom.

What you described sounds exactly like my setup (outside-air heatform) and exactly how the insert is performing.  I have 2 interior vents (about 5 feet off the floor) and 1 exterior vent out of the back (off to the side) of the firebox.  From the inside of the firebox, I couldn't see the exterior vent, so what you are describing (the airspace between the heatform and the masonry) is very possible.  The building inspector said the vents on the side were to supply heat to the room (exactly what you said), but now that the insert was installed, they were actually drawing in outside air.  I'm not sure how, but you could feel VERY cold outside air in the interior vents.  

I already stuffed the interior vents with insulation and it made a very noticable difference.  The heat coming out of the blower got much hotter immediately.  It's still not great, but it is better.  I will stuff the outside vent with insulation as well and report back.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 29, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> thechimneysweep said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you keep the outside stuffed closed, don't forget to knockout the inside air hole in the side of casing for combusion air. Glad things are coming along.


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2007)

Yep, good to see progress. I was suspicious of that outside vent. Good to have Tom jump on board with a fireplace ID. Tom, just curious, how does the outside air terminate at the heatform fireplace? Is there a duct fitting inside the box that could be flex-piped to the Summit's OAK connection? 

Also, acosta - did the surround get pulled for a proper inspection? Are all pieces in place on the top of the stove?


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 29, 2007)

BeGreen,

The outside air heatforms I've seen, the outside air didn't extend all the way to the firebox, it just opened to the space between the heatform and the masonry structure.  Some of the outflow into the room would be drawn into the firebox by the chimney updraft to feed the fire, creating a sort of passive OA connection.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 29, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Yep, good to see progress. I was suspicious of that outside vent. Good to have Tom jump on board with a fireplace ID. Tom, just curious, how does the outside air terminate at the heatform fireplace? Is there a duct fitting inside the box that could be flex-piped to the Summit's OAK connection?
> 
> Also, acosta - did the surround get pulled for a proper inspection? Are all pieces in place on the top of the stove?



The building inspector is coming Wednesday for an inspection.  He asked me to pull the surrount off for a proper inspection.  At this point, we've determined that the installer used regular fiberglass insulation in the install, which according to Owens Corning is only rated up to 260° (nice fire hazard).  I mentioned it to the installer and he's "never heard of such a thing".  He says he's been installing for years using this method and has "never" had a problem.  He said he would install a block off plate for me, but doesn't recommend it.  He said it would just be a piece of sheet metal in place against the pipe and would leave lots of areas for air to pass through.  He said it would make my situation worse, by allowing cold air to hit the stove.  He said the insulation is actually "better" because it stops the air from flowing.  

He also said the lack of the full flue is NOT contributing to my problem.  The full flue only enhances draft.  Since my stove is reaching 600°, I don't have a draft problem.  They RARELY install full flue's.  He's killing me!

He also said my fireplace was a masonry fireplace.  He described it exactly like Tom said (metal box with masonry over it).  Is that considered a pre-fab (requires full flue) or masonry (doesn't require full flue)?  Is he right?


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## thechimneysweep (Jan 29, 2007)

Hey Acosta,

If you have a masonry foundation with a masonry firebox and a masonry chimney, you don't have a manufactured (prefab) fireplace.  You have a masonry fireplace with an outside-air heatform installed in it.  PE's full liner requirement for manufactured fireplaces wouldn't apply, although I STRONGLY recommend a full reline to the top of the flue.  A full reline installation has a more consistent draft and causes less creosote accumulation in the flue.  Plus, wait until you watch your installer put in the metal blocking plate: trust me, you won't want to remove and re-install that thing AFTER you remove the insert from the fireplace every time you clean your chimney.


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## acosta2269 (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks, Tom.  I completely agree about the full liner and definitely want to install one.  I'm just thinking of ways to get the installer to come back and install it, and offsetting the money I already paid him for the half assed install he did the first time.  I figured if it was required by code or the manufacturer then it was clearly his fault and he would have to do re-do properly using the full liner.  I've already found out he used insulation incorrectly and needs to correct that problem.  I trying to figure a way for him to correct the full flue liner as well.  


Anyone have any suggestions?


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## Hogwildz (Jan 30, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Thanks, Tom.  I completely agree about the full liner and definitely want to install one.  I'm just thinking of ways to get the installer to come back and install it, and offsetting the money I already paid him for the half assed install he did the first time.  I figured if it was required by code or the manufacturer then it was clearly his fault and he would have to do re-do properly using the full liner.  I've already found out he used insulation incorrectly and needs to correct that problem.  I trying to figure a way for him to correct the full flue liner as well.
> 
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions?



A full liner is going to cost extra, no way around that. I highly doubt he will even credit you for the direct connect towards the full liner. Given the BS he has already handed you. You may have to put up the extra. Just be sure he doesn't ream you in retaliation for the insulation & other issues.


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## begreen (Jan 30, 2007)

I'd say acosta might be in the driver's seat. Here is an installer that is bragging about a number of suspect installs. Does the inspector know about these jobs?


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## acosta2269 (Jan 30, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I'd say acosta might be in the driver's seat. Here is an installer that is bragging about a number of suspect installs. Does the inspector know about these jobs?



Funny you say that...the inspector said to me today "I wonder how many other installs he did like this".


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## acosta2269 (Jan 30, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> acosta2269 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't mind paying for the difference in the liner cost and the block off plate, but I'd want him to credit me back for the direct liner and the BS installation job he did the fist time.

What is a reasonable price for a full liner install along with a block off plate (all materials and labor)?


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## elkimmeg (Jan 30, 2007)

Acosta I got the solution Pm me your inspectors name and tell ## from my office tomorrow I will call him and explain the NFPA 2003 Code changes and explain  why I pass or reject certaint installs. After the phone conversation I will fax him  the pages of code so that he has them first hand I think it comming from another inspector and explained and why the code changes,  he will have an easier time understanding them and  applying them.. As for your installer not to smart I would never admit I made that many bad installs they brag about and used that as proof of 
 why others should accept being short changed by a freaking idiot, who does not w know what he it talking about and can not support his installations with code. To boot. he then continues to try to BS you. 
 here is straight fact no bs read the code  2003 NFPA  211

2.4.5 Connection to Masonry Fireplaces.
12.4.5.1 A natural draft solid fuel-burning appliance such as a stove or insert shall be permitted to use a masonry fireplace flue where the following conditions are met:
(1) There is a connector that extends from the appliance to the flue liner.
(2) The cross-sectional area of the flue is no smaller than the cross-sectional area of the flue collar of the appliance, unless otherwise specified by the appliance manufacturer.
(3)* The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with no walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than three times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.
(4) The cross-sectional area of the flue of a chimney with one or more walls exposed to the outside below the roofline is no more than two times the cross-sectional area of the appliance flue collar.
(5) If the appliance vents directly through the chimney wall above the smoke chamber, there shall be a noncombustible seal below the entry point of the connector.
(6) The installation shall be such that the chimney system can be inspected and cleaned.
(7) Means shall be provided to prevent dilution of combustion products in the chimney flue with air from the habitable space.

     Elkimmeg,


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## elkimmeg (Jan 31, 2007)

As promised I call your inspector but he was out doing inspections. I will call him in the morning. I also faxed Him a copy of the first 3 pages of chapter 12 
 2003 NFPA211, coppied on our town seal and logo from the Building Inspections Dept. He now has the  written codes pertaining to your installation.

 Any other question I left my office number  and you know how to contact me   Hopefully  It will help get things right 

 good luck with you inspection tomorrow and let up know what occured

See Roo I also help Summit owners


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## acosta2269 (Jan 31, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> As promised I call your inspector but he was out doing inspections. I will call him in the morning. I also faxed Him a copy of the first 3 pages of chapter 12
> 2003 NFPA211, coppied on our town seal and logo from the Building Inspections Dept. He now has the  written codes pertaining to your installation.
> 
> Any other question I left my office number  and you know how to contact me   Hopefully  It will help get things right
> ...



Elk,

Thank you again for all of your help.  I will call him in the morning before our meeting and make sure he got the materials you sent him.  I'll keep you posted.


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## elkimmeg (Jan 31, 2007)

I spoke with your inspector this morning. He has the faxed codes. We had a nice discussion and seem to be on the same page. Good luck ant keep us informed how it turned out


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## Gunner (Jan 31, 2007)

Good work ELK :exclaim: 

Bad installers take note, "Elkthestovehunter" WILL get you.  

There's fear and darkness all around you
The installers are on the run
no use in hiding in the fog
I hunt you down cause I'm the Elk
I'm the Elk....... the big bad Elk
     the....stove...hunter




P.S Roo, I think we need your photoshop skills here.


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## acosta2269 (Feb 12, 2007)

So it's been a couple of weeks now.  I figured during that time I'd let some others get their problems solved instead of monopolizing the board.   I'm back with an update....

Thanks to Elk, and going back and forth for weeks, my inspector finally failed the installation of the insert.  The installer is coming back Thursday to install a FULL liner, with a metal block off plate, with insulation above the plate.  That's good news, finally.  Thank you again, Elk.  You really did way more than I ever expected.  I appreciate it.  

Over the weekend I think I may have pinpointed my "heat output" issues, but I'm not sure.    I had the stove burning nicely at 600°.  The air coming out of the blower was warm/hot.  With the stove burning, I shutt off the blower.   Withing minutes, the stove temp shot up to around 800°.  The stove was hot!  The room got immediately warmer.   You felt the heat coming off the stove once you reached within 10 feet of the stove.  It was something I never felt before.  I got concerned, so I turned the blower back on and within minutes, the stove temps went back down into the 600's.  Weird!  I turned the blower off several times and each time, the stove temps shot up and A LOT more heat was coming off the stove.  The room became much warmer.  Actually, last night was the 1st night my wife didn't use a blanket sitting on the couch next to the stove.  It was amazing!

So I called PE this morning.  Cathy (very nice lady) said it sounds like the blower is pulling cold air back down the chimney (because I have a 1/2 liner).  The cold air is mixing with the hot air and releasing WARM air to the room.  By shutting the blower off, it's no longer drawing the cold air down the chimney.  She said that once I install the full liner, it should eliminate this problem and the blower will only blow the hot air from around the stove, no longer mixing with the cold.  She also said not to worry about the 800° temps on the stove.  She said the full liner will also make the wood burn longer and give me more heat.

Does this make sense?  Could this have been my problem all along?  Will my problem really go away Thursday?


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## Gunner (Feb 12, 2007)

Sounds great, was looking forward to your update.  

Big round of applause for elk in helping to come to a good conclusion

I think your wife will throw the blanket away once you get that chimney lined.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2007)

Semi-plausible, though I'd have thought that the PE insert would be designed to extract the room's interior air into the blower plenum and not the fireplace air. Otherwise it would seem this would be a common issue. But not owning this insert I'll wait for others to comment. (With Dylan not here, someone's got to be the skeptic.)


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## acosta2269 (Feb 12, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Semi-plausible, though I'd have thought that the PE insert would be designed to extract the room's interior air into the blower plenum and not the fireplace air. Otherwise it would seem this would be a common issue. But not owning this insert I'll wait for others to comment. (With Dylan not here, someone's got to be the skeptic.)



PE said that blower was drawing both, the room's interior air and sucking air down the chimney through any openings in the insulation that was stuffed up there.  She said that because my chimney is on an exterior wall, the inside of the chimney fills with cold air.  Because I only have a 1/2 flue liner that dumps out into a larger 10" liner, the blower is drawing cold air back towards the stove, through any opening in the insulation.  Is that plausible?  Would a full liner eliminate this issue, or would a sealed block off plate, eliminate this isse?  She seemed confident that the full liner, even without the block off plate would eliminate this problem, but who knows.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 12, 2007)

acosta2269 said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And where would this cold air that is being drawn down the chimney be coming from? From your 1/2 flue liner on up is filled with smoke and hot exhaust from that insert burning. There ain't no cold air hanging around up there to be drawn back down. If air was being pulled back down that chimney and mixed with the air coming out of the blower you would have one mighty smokey house, and carbon monoxide poisoning.


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## acosta2269 (Feb 12, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> acosta2269 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What you are saying also makes sense.  I don't know what the problem is.  That's why I asked the questions.  I do know that the blower is definitely cooling off the stove.  Without the blower the stove hits 800°.  With the blower going, the stove is around 600°.


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## bacsales (Feb 12, 2007)

Acosta.  I am the pacific energy distributor for New York Ct and New Jersey.  I just read this thread and would like to offer my assistance.  I think you have everything in line concerning outside air infiltration etc.  Block the outside vents on your chimney.  They are causing cold air problems.  Please email me your phone number or call me so I can talk to you today and also contact the dealerthat you purchased from before he redoes your install.  Again I would like to help in any way possible.


Jack Cohen
Vice President  Bac Sales
jack@bacsales.com

518 828 6363 ext 240


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## thechimneysweep (Feb 12, 2007)

Acosta, I think we might be back where we started from: you have an outside air heatform fireplace. 

It seems to me the most likely source of the cooling action is cold outside air entering the chamber that surrounds your heatform.  This would create a cold box for your insert to live in.  Further, your installer would most likely have had to cut through the tubes at the top of the heatform to install his pipe into the first clay liner, which would allow the cold air to flow right into the fireplace cavity itself and cool the heat exchange plenum on the insert directly.

If you haven't done this already, pack the outside air intake with ceramic blanket insulation and seal it on the outside.


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## Gunner (Feb 12, 2007)

jack said:
			
		

> Acosta.  I am the pacific energy distributor for New York Ct and New Jersey.  I just read this thread and would like to offer my assistance.  I think you have everything in line concerning outside air infiltration etc.  Block the outside vents on your chimney.  They are causing cold air problems.  Please email me your phone number or call me so I can talk to you today and also contact the dealerthat you purchased from before he redoes your install.  Again I would like to help in any way possible.
> 
> 
> Jack Cohen
> ...




Welcome to the forum Jack


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## bacsales (Feb 12, 2007)

Thanks for the welcome.  I am very impressed with the forum and the open discussions of problems and possible solutions without anger or belittling remarks is refreshing.  I just spoke to Anthony and we are on the case!  I will let him post the eventual solution but I feel comfortable we will get it fixed asap.


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## Rhone (Feb 12, 2007)

I'm wondering if the shroud is installed incorrectly.  The metal shroud should be all sealed off I believe, Hogwildz can give a better explanation of how the shroud gets installed.


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## acosta2269 (Feb 12, 2007)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> Acosta, I think we might be back where we started from: you have an outside air heatform fireplace.
> 
> It seems to me the most likely source of the cooling action is cold outside air entering the chamber that surrounds your heatform.  This would create a cold box for your insert to live in.  Further, your installer would most likely have had to cut through the tubes at the top of the heatform to install his pipe into the first clay liner, which would allow the cold air to flow right into the fireplace cavity itself and cool the heat exchange plenum on the insert directly.
> 
> If you haven't done this already, pack the outside air intake with ceramic blanket insulation and seal it on the outside.



Tom,

The installer didn't cut anything when he installed the stove.  He simply slid the 1/2 liner into the damper and up into the existing 10" metal liner already in the chimney.  The he stuffed the damper area with insulation.  

I tried stuffing the outside vent with fiberglass insulation and it made no difference.  I also tried incense into the vent and no detectable smell came into the house.  I will try to seal up the outside vent better with ceramic blanket insulation.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 13, 2007)

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if the shroud is installed incorrectly.  The metal shroud should be all sealed off I believe, Hogwildz can give a better explanation of how the shroud gets installed.



Ive explained that ealier in this thread.
I still say close all the old vents to the heatform, have damper block off installed and SEALED WELL & CORRECTLY. I think I also stated that cold air was getting in somehow and mixing with the blown air causing warm not hot air. The fact the when the blower is off, it spikes and when on it cools the outcoming air down. Show me that  cold air IS getting in there in a way it should not, hence hes getting only warm air from it when blower is on. I can't hold my had in front of blowing area when mine is on. Its HOT, not warm HOT. I think he is in the right direction. I still say close off ALL heatforn vents inner & outer. I still also think if he has OAK hooked up, that some of that air is getting sucked up to the bloen air area and helping cool things. Just my theory & 2 cents LOL.
He will get it, just a thing of narrowing it down now. Congrats on the new FULL liner & block off plate, thats a must as far as I am concerned.
Just make sure the block off plate is done correctly & sealed correctly. If the top of chimney & damper area are blocked off, Insulation on the blok off plate is not a big concern IMHO. As many have pointed out, that dead air space is an "Insulating" dead air space at that point. I reused the old rock wool from the old block off plate merely cause I had it. If I didn't, I wouldn't have bothered. Sealed tight top & bottom here.


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## elkimmeg (Feb 13, 2007)

I wonder if the original  air venralated flue is dumping cold air into the fire box?

 Your inspector and I had quite a chat I explained how I viewed toe codes and followed up the next day with code language  I faxed to him from the 2006 International Mechanical codes.

   Looks like that installer got a crash course in code

BTW I hope you stick around here for a while, as many others have simmilar problems with insert in pre fabs. I counting on you to step in and help them


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## Hogwildz (Feb 13, 2007)

Elk yet again goes above & beyond. Hats off to ya man.
I don't see those who criticize you going out of their way for so many others.
Your a good man Elk. BTW I owe you a case aof beer!


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## acosta2269 (Feb 13, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> I wonder if the original  air venralated flue is dumping cold air into the fire box?



When I explained my setup to the PE, that's exactly what she thought it was.



> Your inspector and I had quite a chat I explained how I viewed toe codes and followed up the next day with code language  I faxed to him from the 2006 International Mechanical codes.
> 
> Looks like that installer got a crash course in code
> 
> BTW I hope you stick around here for a while, as many others have simmilar problems with insert in pre fabs. I counting on you to step in and help them



I will absolutely stick around and help where ever I can.  I owe a lot to everyone who has pitched in to help me out.  Besides, I think it's going to be a while before i master the art of wood burning.


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## Hogwildz (Feb 13, 2007)

I wanted to ask and forgot, is the full liner extra? Block off plate too? Is he crediting you towards the direct connect he did to go towards the full liner?


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## acosta2269 (Feb 13, 2007)

Hey Hogwildz,

I worked it out with the dealerto pay him for the difference between a full liner install and a direct connect.  I got prices from a few others so i know the price is fair.  He's also going to put in the block off plate at no extra charge.  If he installs everything correctly, it seems fair.  

Also, I spoke to my new friend Jack today (VP of BAC (dealer for PE's)) and he graciously offered his help in getting me up and running the right way.  

Problem is...we're supposed to get a foot of snow tomorrow night, so the installation on Thursday may have to be put on hold.  I can't win!


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## Roospike (Feb 13, 2007)

Lets see .................We have on the case ,

jack - pacific energy distributor for New York Ct and New Jersey

thechimneysweep -Tom Oyen Pacific Energy dealer w/ many year experence.

elkimmeg - Don , inspector and huge wood stove guru

Hogwildz - Summit insert owner , self installed . 

all the rest of us stove gu-ru's helping out and sit back and relax .......................

*POPCORN! ........GET YOUR POPCORN! *


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## Hogwildz (Feb 13, 2007)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Lets see .................We have on the case ,
> 
> jack - pacific energy distributor for New York Ct and New Jersey
> 
> ...



Well I want EXTRA, REAL, artery clogging butter on mine please! Just drown mine!


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## FINLAND (Mar 4, 2007)

FINNISH fireplaces and totally new way to split the wood.VIPUKIRVES/LEVERAXE.
www.tulikivi.fi
www.nunnauuni.fi
www.vipukirves.fi
Best regards from FINLAND


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## begreen (Mar 4, 2007)

Cool it with the ads Finland. If you want to impress, split some elm with that thing.


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## jjbaer (Mar 27, 2007)

So...what was the final result......did you get it to where it's putting out more heat? My thoughts (without knowing the entire setup) would be the following combination of events which I think some or all has already been mentioned by others here but might be summarized:

That with no block-off plate and only a partial liner, that when the stove runs it "entrains" (draws) room air AND pulls in outside colder air through the outside air vents, into the chimney. This creates a vacuum on your home which then pulls in additional cold replacement air from the outside through every nook and cranny in your home, thus making for a cold house. This air has but one pathway and that's into the surround and up the chimney. In taking this path the cold air (especially if it's coming from the outside and into the hearth area and out the chimney) passes by the heat shroud, cools it and your blower delivers luke-warm air......bottom line seems to be that cold air is somehow leaking into the pathway that the fan circulates room air into and/or cold air is chilling the outer heat shroud, both of which result in significantly lowered output temperatures......

So...what was the final verdict?


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## jjbaer (Mar 27, 2007)

Another thought:  what is the temp reading BEHIND the surround when the unit is running......?  If it's very cold, well, there's part of your answer...that the heat shield might be getting cooled so much by entrained air that it's blowing 78F air into your room......


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## jjbaer (Mar 28, 2007)

So...what was the final outcome on your stove?  Did they fix it, replace it or what?  Also, what were the results on the analysis of the substance on your walls? 





			
				acosta2269 said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FINLAND (May 5, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Cool it with the ads Finland. If you want to impress, split some elm with that thing.



Sorry for this delay, but here you are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJt-UR9f_a4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acBdvv8wA6w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLs1YI68Z6k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkI0Shz9Hf0


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## BrowningBAR (May 5, 2010)

FINLAND said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Now I need to pee.


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## Todd (May 5, 2010)

Guess he showed you Begreen. :lol: That Elm over in Finland doesn't look like the stringy crap we have over here but that axe looks like it works just fine and I like how it turns on it's side and pushes the split away. Some of those splits were flying pretty good, the tire is a good idea or even a bungi cord wrapped around the round would help. Oh, and it also has a good long handle unlike the Fiskars.


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## BrowningBAR (May 5, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

> Oh, and it also has a good long handle unlike the Fiskars.



Good god, not that again.


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## begreen (May 5, 2010)

Took him long enough, that was a couple years ago. Agreed, that is nothing like the elm we have growing. But now, I want to see him whack away at my 36-48" doug fir rounds. He can practice all day. I'll even shoot the video.


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## FINLAND (May 6, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Took him long enough, that was a couple years ago. Agreed, that is nothing like the elm we have growing. But now, I want to see him whack away at my 36-48" doug fir rounds. He can practice all day. I'll even shoot the video.



The diameter of the block does not make any difference / difficulty.
You simply take the splits from the side of the block. Easy.

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_h_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_l_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_n_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_nn_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_o_jpg.htm

http://www.vipukirves.fi/kuvagalleria/pages/Vipukirves_p_jpg.htm


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## ansehnlich1 (May 6, 2010)

I guarantee that axe ain't goin' through the Pennsylvania Elm growin' on my land. For this ole country boy the argument is over, done, finit, you name it.

Whatever you are splittin in your neck of the woods AIN'T the stuff that grows on my ground.


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## firefighterjake (May 6, 2010)

Holy cow . . . zombie thread . . . it's alive . . . what was once dead now lives . . .


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## begreen (May 6, 2010)

Time for the silver bullet and consecrated stake.


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