# Insulating Greenwood, Greenfire, Steaton,



## Trzebs13 (Sep 13, 2010)

Has anyone tried wraping insulation on the out side of your boiler?  I thought I had heard of some one doing so and wondering if it helped the dripping from the sides?


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## Pat53 (Sep 13, 2010)

I think the only way to avoid the drpping is to use storage with long burns and little idling, or use ultra dry firewood, which is probably not possible. I doubt wrapping the outside would help.


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## Deere10 (Sep 13, 2010)

Wrappin the outside wont help the dreaded dripping condition.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm in the process of rebuilding mine now. Going to try something completely different with the insulation to where it wont be exposed to the elements of the fire. I don't like the way the insulation acts in the corners. ( collects creosote ) Basically what I'm doing would be like removing the insulation from the inside and wrapping the out side, only different. In my opinion it will work much better. I agree that long hot burns with no idle time would probably help this a bunch but I don't have storage and won't for some time. I'm documenting my rebuild and will post pics soon.


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 14, 2010)

Im assuming you must have tried this and it has not worked  (Pat & Deere)

Jesse I have wondered the same thing about those corners.  I have only done one experement with some fire bricks
but did not have succcess.  I would be very intrested in what you come up with.


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## Pat53 (Sep 14, 2010)

Trzebs, I'm adding storage this season. The dripping comes from moisture in the wood released during idling. The only way I can think of to get rid of it is long hot burns, but more importantly, it should help keep your HX tubes much cleaner and efficient. I spent 4 hours cleaning my tubes last spring, they were plugged almost solid in the back vertical section section. I modified the back plate on my Seton so i can easily access the tubes without dismantling my plumbing, in case i want to clean the tubes during the heating season. i'm hoping, and anticipating, that my build-up will be minimal this year with storage and better dried wood.

pat


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## Deere10 (Sep 14, 2010)

I have my GW100 apart now and found the same build up on these tubes. Last season was my first with this unit(may have not been cleaned before I got it). Planning on modifying the side panel so removal and cleaning may be done during season with ease,rather than a complete tear down.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 14, 2010)

Deere10 said:
			
		

> I have my GW100 apart now and found the same build up on these tubes. Last season was my first with this unit(may have not been cleaned before I got it). Planning on modifying the side panel so removal and cleaning may be done during season with ease,rather than a complete tear down.



This is my typical... one season build up on vertical tubes


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## Pat53 (Sep 14, 2010)

very similar to what mine looked like.


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## muleman51 (Sep 17, 2010)

Looks just like mine looks every time I open it up. Biggest problem is finding insulation to put it back together. I only burn continous fires but mine still pluggs up. I have mine wrapped on the outside with 4" of sheet fiberglass insulation. this lowered the boiler room temp to the high 90*s so it helped some. Every year I look less forward to heating, sure was easier with the old aqua therm, just keep throwing in wood. Lots of luck with next season.  Jim


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 17, 2010)

Mine looks like that as well.  But the wierd thing is that I really cant tell much difference in the preformance.  Now with that being said.  I clean it in the spring and really don't use much wood in the fall.  And by thie time it cools down It has a fairly good coat on the tibes already.  But one way would be to measure chimney temps.  The heat would need to go some where and if it's not getting transford to the Hx I would think it would go up the stack.  May be a good experiment.  I realize where the moisture for dripping is coming from but what puzzles me is that since I put in the Insulated chimnney pipe in I get no dripping at all from the chimnney.  All of it is coming from the sides.  I really think that those upper corners where is bare insulation is contributing to that.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 17, 2010)

Mine doesn't perform any different either..... The only thing I do during the heating season is occasional knock off the buildup on the horizontal tubes I can reach from the fire box. I don't have any problem waiting on the back till the end of the season.


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 17, 2010)

Looking at it today again, I'm toying with the idea of pouring up some fire brick meterial and making the sides higher and If possible evan go over the top of the Hx.  I would think that should help.  I've seen some poeple on here pouring there own.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 17, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> Looking at it today again, I'm toying with the idea of pouring up some fire brick meterial and making the sides higher and If possible evan go over the top of the Hx.  I would think that should help.  I've seen some poeple on here pouring there own.



Pourable refractory is available but if your thinking of doing this to keep the insulation from being exposed to the elements you'll have to completely seal it up, which could be difficult.


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## benjamin (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm not familiar with these boilers, is that fiber insulation exposed directly to the smoke?

If so it seems to me that the vapor barrier (steel skin) is on the wrong side of the insulation, from a builders perpective.  It doesn't matter how dry the wood is, unless its turned to charcoal, any remaining hydrogen will burn to form water which will move into the insulation and condense on the cold surface of the steel.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 18, 2010)

benjamin said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter how dry the wood is, unless its turned to charcoal, any remaining hydrogen will burn to form water which will move into the insulation and condense on the cold surface of the steel.



No doubt tru, Ben J. But what are the alternatives?

I ask because my GW is semi-apart at the mo, and I am researching steel and insulation before the rest of the home-dwellers have me comitted for not turning on the heat.

What if the insulation was sandiched in SS wire mesh, leaving air space between the insulation and the skin? If the skin were SS and allowed to drain, wouldn't this prolong the life of the skins and the insulation?

Oh, and back to the OP . . . I can't see where exterior insulation would be much benefit. And if the unit is inside the residence - sucker :grrr:  - then why bother to try to contain standby losses?

Jimbo


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## Jesse-M (Sep 18, 2010)

benjamin said:
			
		

> I'm not familiar with these boilers, is that fiber insulation exposed directly to the smoke?



Yes, here is aside shot showing the insulation.


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## benjamin (Sep 18, 2010)

[quote author="ISeeDeadBTUs" date="1284821362
No doubt tru, Ben J. But what are the alternatives?

I ask because my GW is semi-apart at the mo, and I am researching steel and insulation before the rest of the home-dwellers have me comitted for not turning on the heat.

What if the insulation was sandiched in SS wire mesh, leaving air space between the insulation and the skin? If the skin were SS and allowed to drain, wouldn't this prolong the life of the skins and the insulation?


Jimbo[/quote]

The vapor barrier should be on the hot side of the wall, just look at your refridgerator and freezer.  The steel skin is neatly sealed on purpose and the plastic inside has holes in strategic places to let the moisture pass (some use foam and don't bother).

Two options I have are exterior insulation to raise the temp of the steel above the dew point, not much is needed or you'll bake the paint off of the steel and smell it if its inside.  Or add a steel liner inside the insulation that is tighter than the existing steel skin, probably a PITA.


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 18, 2010)

The vapor barrier should be on the hot side of the wall, just look at your refridgerator and freezer. The steel skin is neatly sealed on purpose and the plastic inside has holes in strategic places to let the moisture pass (some use foam and don't bother).

Two options I have are exterior insulation to raise the temp of the steel above the dew point, not much is needed or you'll bake the paint off of the steel and smell it if its inside. Or add a steel liner inside the insulation that is tighter than the existing steel skin, probably a PITA.[/quote]



I think we may be getting somewhere here. I agree with the idea that we need a vapor barrier on the inside. But, with that being said I think it has to be air tight or near air tight. But using steel for it all thou it may be the easiest I'm not so sure how long the life would be on that. But It would sure be easy enough while you had it apart. To go to a fab shop and have them take some heavy sheet stock and bend it up in a big U shape, that goes over your Hx and sits on the top of you refractory.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 18, 2010)

Sorry 13, I gotta disagree with ya again.

And if my understanding of Ben J was correct, he was saying the steel needs to be above the dewpoint. Though I've never measured the temp on the OUTSIDE (nor inside, but I assume inside would be hotter) I seriously doubt that when the H2O temp is 170 or higher the temp of the skins is below the dew point. 

One thing I find curious is that any time I've removed a skin, I never find the insulation wet . . . :smirk:


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 18, 2010)

Well I would hope that you (Jimbo) would wait till the unit is cooled off before you've removed the sides. And I'm assuming that it's probably evaporated by the time you get to it. After thinking about this some more, I put some fire bricks and linned them vertical from the top of the refectory to the top of the interior. They fit nice and snug. I think what Ben brought up is a valid point. Here's the reality of this. All, not just our style of boilers, all are going to have at least 18-20 percent moisture content in the wood supply. To automatically blame wet wood is really a comp out, if you ask me. Sure the dryer the wood the less there will be, but there is still going to be allot of moisture in your wood. With that being said we need to focus on where it goes. Water turns to steam. Where the steam goes is the real problem. I don't want it soaking into the insulation period. I would like to direct it out and up the chimney. Not dripping down the sides. Now is that possible? I really don't know and thats what I'm trying to figure out. 

If there's a will, there's a way. And the more of us thinking about it, and trying things I bet we'll get it!


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## benjamin (Sep 19, 2010)

I don't claim to be an expert on condensation, but if these are dripping moisture, I'm guessing the problem is the design of the insulation allowing the steel to remain below the dew point for long enough to drip water out of the unit.  Refractory may be a good solution also, it may lose more heat than the original insulation to do that.


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 19, 2010)

If you could tell me excatly what the "dew point" would be?


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## Jesse-M (Sep 19, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> To go to a fab shop and have them take some heavy sheet stock and bend it up in a big U shape, that goes over your Hx and sits on the top of you refractory.


 



> *benjamin        18 September 2010 07:56 AM*
> 
> Or add a steel liner inside the insulation that is tighter than the existing steel skin, probably a PITA




Now you guys are getting close to what I've got under way..... 


Does anybody know what this is thats being advertised on the new Setons? " *stainless steel evaporative condensate system* "

................................................Found here................................................


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## benjamin (Sep 19, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> If you could tell me excatly what the "dew point" would be?



Probably around 200 degrees at the highest, unless something besides water condenses out of smoke that changes that temperature.  You may be OK with temperatures much lower but I'm still thinking that the skin will be cool enough to condense water out of the smoke for a short time on every burn cycle. 

Is this where the water is coming from and not condensing on the heat exchange pipes?


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 19, 2010)

Now you guys are getting close to what I've got under way..... 


Does anybody know what this is thats being advertised on the new Setons? " *stainless steel evaporative condensate system* "



Jesse, any Pics you could share?


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## Jesse-M (Sep 19, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> Jesse, any Pics you could share?



I'm still working on the insulation.......but here are a few of what I just finished, covering another topic/problem I had.
Didn't want to take a chance with another season on these nipples. Actually after I got them off, I checked to see how much material was left in the deteriorated area............could have made it another season.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 19, 2010)

Hey Jess, any fear of a reaction between the iron and the SS causing deterioration?

2 nd question . . . Were BOTH nipples corroding, or only the top one?

Jimbo


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## leaddog (Sep 19, 2010)

I left this in anyother thread. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/59294/
I think that the ceramic coated steel would keep the insulation from becoming wet and you won't get any miosture getting to the oter skin to condense. The eko lower chamber is made this way.
leaddog


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## Pat53 (Sep 19, 2010)

How many years service on the nipples before you replced them?


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## benjamin (Sep 19, 2010)

As Tom in Maine stated in the other thread, maybe nonmetalic is the way to go.  Sure stainless in just about any grade would probably work much longer than regular sheet steel, or you could do the whole thing in 5/16" 316, but not if I'm paying even scrap price for the material.  

13, if you want to try out some firebrick, get ahold of me, I've got a ton and could get them to you in parts of Central WI for a small cost.  The biggest problem would be making it easy to take apart to clean.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 20, 2010)

My unit has only been through two complete seasons but all of the nipple damage was done during the first season. The combination of inexperience, and pour choice of some materials used, resulted in the deterioration of these parts. ( both in and out nipples where  effected almost the same amount ) Most of witch was discussed last year in a thread about Huffing. I have since been able to make changes and improvements to combat this. All of which would really suck had I not been the builder and consequently re-builder of this unit.

I don't have any concerns about the stainless sleeves around the nipples....there is approximately 1/16" gap between the sleeve and the pipe which is filled with high temp silicone. There will also be 1/16" gap between the sleeve and the outer skin, which will be filled with silicone. ( I've had very good luck with silicone in this application )

The ceramic coating idea is very intriguing to me, I see a lot of possibilities for such a product in my unit............will research this more


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 20, 2010)

I cut my side panel today to make it easier to clean.  In doing so, as expected I ruined the insulation on that pc.  A freind of mine owns an insulation business that said he could hook me up with some material to redo that pc.  I will ask him about some type of spray type that could handle these temps.  If you guy's happen to get this and have another question he will probably know the answer.  Just let me know.

Jesse.  I got to say I really like your idea there with the nipple.  I think one of the problems right from the get go is that there is hardly any gap there.  I actually ground mine slightly to get a sealent around it before I started having problems.  I think that it not rubbing and the sealent has some give in it to take some movment.  Well done!


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## muleman51 (Sep 20, 2010)

The only reason I wish I had the boiler in the house would be for the standby heat. There is plenty of heat loss, my boiler room will get to 120* plus, however it does dry the wood nicely.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 22, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> I cut my side panel today to make it easier to clean.  . . .



Pictures please! I am getting ready to cut my old skin to get the access holes exactly where I want them b4 cutting my new panel(s). We wanna see your ideas.




			
				Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> Jesse.  I got to say I really like your idea there with the nipple.  I think one of the problems right from the get go is that there is hardly any gap there.  I actually ground mine slightly to get a sealent around it before I started having problems.  I think that it not rubbing and the sealent has some give in it to take some movment.  Well done!



When I put the new, larger nipple on last year, I just chipped the rusted skin back so it didn't touch the iron. I think you can see from this year's pics there is no corrosion, just a bit of surface rust below the skin-line. I never even bothered to put ANY sealant between the skin and nipple. Maybe inside the residence you should, I don't know.

Jimbo


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 22, 2010)

Mine came with a access panel from the top.  So I didn't have to cut that one but here is the side views. If you measrued from the back of the unit to where I cut down it mearues 10".  Got some stainless flat stock (which was a bear to drill and tap) and fatened it on both sides of the cut.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 22, 2010)

13, I like what you did with the side. I have the stock GW pieces, which had no access side NOR top. So, I was thinking . . . it seems to me that the best way to clean the tubes along the top would be from the side. Run a brush between the top and bottom row. Seems like this would keep the insulation on top of the tubes undesturbed. Any thoughts??


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 22, 2010)

Back to the OP discussion . . .

Why could we not have the rfractory continue up the sides then across the top above the tubes. As I see it this would make the combustion chamber have only two openings

1) Existing door opening, and

2) Full width opening approx 5" tall where the tubes would exit at the top rear of the combustion chamber . . .


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 22, 2010)

As far as the clean out goes. Like I mentioned the top was already there which does offer a good opening to clean the tubes. But is a poor way to get the junk that you scrap off the tubes out. Other than un hooking your chimney. The side cut out will be a good place not only to clean and scrape the tubes but then you can scoop the crap out as well. Im glad I have both but if I had only one I would most defiantly take the side access.


As far as something over the top of the tubes. This is exactly what I was saying earlier. The thing is you would have to get it thick enough so the heat doesn't end up warping it to the point where it would be resting on the tubes.  I think as long as I have got it apart I'm going to line the back chamber with another layer of insulation and have steel panels made up for it as well.  My theory is to Line the inside and cover up the insulation, close to air tight and try to get the moisture to either burn off or go out the chimney.  And not give it a chance to soak up in the insulation.  Not positive that it will work but I think it's worth a try.


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## Deere10 (Sep 22, 2010)

Jimbo  I have my sides off. I cut the panel and made a brace and fastened it to the boiler. I will post pics tomorrow of what I did with mine to give ya idea.Basically cut a big L shaped piece from the stock panel. Using all stainless to fasten the panels to the brace I made.I just have to track down some insulation and reassemble now.


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## Jroz (Sep 22, 2010)

love the pics! im leaning toward a side clead out as well. McMaster-carr was the place for me to get insulation part #s 9328K43 and 93315K74.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 23, 2010)

L-shape is what it works out to, but . . . . seems to me that insulation attached to an L-shaped panel will be a nightmare. So I am thinking two separate panels, with enough 'meat' in between to give the skin rigidity.

Question for at least 13 and Deere . . . why you guys using SS for the frame? The angle iron is obviously not SS, and are you not concerned about metallurgic reaction between the Shanghai steel skin and the SS frame?

Jimbo


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 23, 2010)

Well my skins are Stainless to start with.  When I went to my buddies machine shop to look for some flat stock to do this with.  I saw some stainless in the rack so that's what I grabbed.  The angle Iron is indeed carbon steel so I'm not saying that you would have to go with stainless.  I just did cuz it was there.  

Deere  Were you going to post some pics?  I'm courouse what you guy's are talking about with the hole L shape.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 23, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> Well my skins are Stainless to start with.   . . .



Damn, man, I been askin about SS and you been quiet. . . . 

1)What type?

2)How thick?

3)How much corrosion when you pulled it apart?

Jimbo


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 23, 2010)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Trzebs13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I must have posted 10+ pictures on this forum of my unit. Thought you could tell.
In response to your questions:

1) Dont know what type of SS. the Greenfire comes with SS sides. I'm not really sure that it would mater what type of SS you'd go with. But I'm not a metallurgist.

2) .048"

3) None on the side panles. That's the beauty of Stainless Steel. The angle iron inside the unit looks much like the Hx tubes.

Just a side note that I always use antiseze on any fasteners. Has a much higher melt temp than most lubes.

If your thinking of having new sides made. I would not even consider any carbon steel. Unless you like rebuilding these things.


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 24, 2010)

I've been staring at this thing for a while now and I think I have got a plan of what I'm going to try.

1) Put another layer of insulation on the top sides, above the fire chamber. And then line that with a row of that fire brick, that I had pictured earlier in this post.

2) I noticed that the very back bottom, where the intake and chimney outlet has no insulation. So I plan on insulating that back part.

3) I also noticed that the floor of the back chamber is not insulated. So I am going to insulate that.

4) I'm going to have steel plates sheared up to line the entire back chamber, sides and bottom.

5) Some how insulate the entire bottom of the boiler. I'm thinking of using a couple of layers of Rboard, that is often used on the exterior of houses. (But need to look in to make sure this stuff is not flammable, not sure about this product yet.)

The first year that I burned I had single wall pipe exiting the boiler and I got an extreme amount of dripping down that pipe. Last year I purchased insulated SS pipe and do not get any dripping out of the chimney now. My theory here is that by getting this better insulated from the inside is where the problem lies. The steel sheeting is more to just protect the insulation. Be cause Moisture could still condensate on the other side, but I would think that it should act as a vapor barrier as well and not let the steam soak in.

Any thoughts, suggestions?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 24, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> 2) I noticed that the very back bottom, where the intake and chimney outlet has no insulation. So I plan on insulating that back part.
> 
> 3) I also noticed that the floor of the back chamber is not insulated. So I am going to insulate that.



Likewise here, I am curious about complete lack of insulation or brick in the exit chamber.

One other potential problem I think I see . . . the air inlet tubes . . . lets say they develop a leak. Seems likely due to corrosion. seems like smoke will then be drawn back into the combustion chamber. Not good. But also not sure how to replace the tubes without replacing the combustion chamber.

Jimbo


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## Jroz (Sep 24, 2010)

From what I learned the draft tube are supose to be watched and replaced as needed. It would be fairly simple to do that on mine just unbolt the draft door assembly and they slide out the back. 2" car exhaust i beleive was what we used.

J


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 24, 2010)

I think your right on Jorz mine seems to be some kind of flex style tubing. But after all the work Ive been doing back there they really don't seem that extremely tight in the refractory. Changing them wouldn't be the biggest deal.

And I have now finished insulating the rear exhaust chamber. Here's a picture of it. The bottom is also insulated but there was a bunch of crud that fell off and is sitting ontop of the insulation at the moment. Tomorrow off to the fab shop to have the interior plating sheared up for it. I think not having this part insulated really does promote the dripping we get. I always did notice that most of the dripping came from the back. Not all but most. And I wonder Jimbo if that's why your insulation was never damp. Maybe it was coming from back there and it starts puddling and then finds its way out along the seam. Just a thought.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 25, 2010)

I insulated mine from head to toe. I believe most of my water seepage was due to burning green wood. Insulating the boiler barn helped  as well. The second season was all around better for me. With the barn insulated, and the outside temp at 30...I would be about 60 inside. I wouldn't be to concerned about the intake tubes, If you where to get a leak you would just be cycling hot air ( remember we don't produce smoke ) which will only help the burn. If you did need to replace them, it wouldn't be very hard. I've got mine just sticking into the fire box, not really sealed at all. Took the whole rig out for the rebuild....here's a pic

Made some progress on the insulation isolation today......pic of that soon


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 25, 2010)

Does anyone here have AutoCAD or another? I would love to get these units completly spec'd out so we could cost this from the ground up. My guess is that some of the corners that were cut to blacken the bottom line could be 'fixed' and these beasts would be as if not more efficient than any other wood-fired hydronic without storage.

Great pics you guys BTW!

Jimbo


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## Jroz (Sep 25, 2010)

Jesse did you add the exhaust damper? I was wonder about doing this. I can have mine shut down for 30 minutes and still see heat coming out the chimney, seems like a great idea.

ps thx for the pics
Josh


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## bigburner (Sep 25, 2010)

I have a question?? Do you, on this type water tube boiler keep the internal water temp elevated by means of a mix valve to the system supply. It appears that if the water temp was held at 240 F inside the boiler that the whole thing would operate better. updraft gassification is tricky, works well when adjusted correctly. Some of the concerns as far as insulation goes that where mentioned in the posts. I eliminated it our design by building an arch of fire brick, burn chamber completely firebrick, with the down draft exhaust [no fan], the difference is that we ended up recycling a fire tube boiler and mounted it on top for heat exchanger.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 26, 2010)

Jroz said:
			
		

> Jesse did you add the exhaust damper? I was wonder about doing this. I can have mine shut down for 30 minutes and still see heat coming out the chimney, seems like a great idea.
> 
> ps thx for the pics
> Josh



I put the flue damper on with the initial build...thought it would be ideal for the set up. Ended up I didn't like the way the boiler acted with it shutting the flue down on idle. Turns out I use it every day for small adjustments...depending on the wind forecast for the day. One thing I haven't done yet is try setting it to only close 2/3 of the way instead of completely closed. ( probably wont do that either, I'm pretty happy with the way it works manually )


As for running the boiler at 240*...no way I would do that....I don't like going over 180*.


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## Trzebs13 (Sep 26, 2010)

bigburner said:
			
		

> I have a question?? Do you, on this type water tube boiler keep the internal water temp elevated by means of a mix valve to the system supply. It appears that if the water temp was held at 240 F inside the boiler that the whole thing would operate better. updraft gassification is tricky, works well when adjusted correctly. Some of the concerns as far as insulation goes that where mentioned in the posts. I eliminated it our design by building an arch of fire brick, burn chamber completely firebrick, with the down draft exhaust [no fan], the difference is that we ended up recycling a fire tube boiler and mounted it on top for heat exchanger.



240 F is way to hot.  I think the temp blow off is at around 210 F  and water boils at 220 F.  I really do like the thought of an arch of brick.  Any pictures you could share?

Well I got my steel for the exhaust chamber today and just about got it back together.  Crossing my fingers in hopes that it works.  On the down side it rained just over 6" here this last week and hauled some wood over to the house and holy man!   It must have been coming down sideways cuz my freakin wood is really wet   Set all my bins of wood out in the open field with covers on them so I hope it stays windy.


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## bigburner (Sep 26, 2010)

240 F is way to hot.  I think the temp blow off is at around 210 F and water boils at 220 F.  I really do like the thought of an arch of brick.  Any pictures you could share

  My point was that if you raised the temp of the HX you could raise the due point temp. This type of boiler does not use a a pressure vessel as a HX "by definition"  Water boils at 250 F @ 30 PSI & 281 @ 50 PSI. With a 50 pound blow off 240 F would be easy to maintain. The pipe it's constructed of is rated at 100 PSI + unsure about the manifold, 50 pounds should be easy.

  My boiler is designed to load logs, with a two wheel cart. the fire box is below grade and is about 6 ft tall to help produce the updraft gasification. 

  In the smaller units that are being talked about here, the type of pizza that uses fire brick arches, like a" bravo" would be more in line with my thought for this size unit.

  These units "greenwood"  are a simplified version of the Russian style heater/boiler that are historically laid up of fire brick, and the insulation is not used. a 3/8 air gap between the firebrick and the cladding brick/block.

   Pictures - do not really have any, I thought about doing a bio with a few pictures, pretty sure that this is a one of a kind, it's the kind of stuff I like to see from others, gets me thinking. Will work on some pictures.


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## Jesse-M (Sep 26, 2010)

Sounds like some cool ideas, dumping logs into the fire box would be awesome.....I would like to see a build thread with pics as well


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## sparke (Oct 2, 2010)

Regarding the top of the unit.  I had the idea a long time ago to line the sides and top with refractory.  I called Mark and talked to him about it.  (This was a few years ago).  He said he had already tried it and the issue was the refractory did not hold up, it cracked and fell apart.  He said he had the ss needles in the mix of refractory.  Seems to me if we line the unit over the hex tubes there will need to be a steel frame to support it.  I am considering building a frame and lining the sides and top above hex with fire brick. Do you guys think this would make enough of a difference in performance to bother with?  I am curious more then anything. My unit runs clean, my goals would be to decrease wood consumption,  I would think the HEX would perform better with some type of refractory above it?   Not sure if I have the ambition this year...


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## snowman49820 (Oct 2, 2010)

sparke said:
			
		

> Regarding the top of the unit.  I had the idea a long time ago to line the sides and top with refractory.  I called Mark and talked to him about it.  (This was a few years ago).  He said he had already tried it and the issue was the refractory did not hold up, it cracked and fell apart.  He said he had the ss needles in the mix of refractory.  Seems to me if we line the unit over the hex tubes there will need to be a steel frame to support it.  I am considering building a frame and lining the sides and top above hex with fire brick. Do you guys think this would make enough of a difference in performance to bother with?  I am curious more then anything. My unit runs clean, my goals would be to decrease wood consumption,  I would think the HEX would perform better with some type of refractory above it?   Not sure if I have the ambition this year...


 I used refractory board to line the inside of my boiler. It works great, doesn't sag or collect creosote.
Bought my refractory and board from GM Refractories in Brighton, MI http://gmrefractories.com/index.htm


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## Jesse-M (Oct 2, 2010)

snowman have you posted any pictures of your build?


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## sparke (Oct 2, 2010)

Snowman,  when you say it works good - do you mean the performance of your boiler changed?  Is board durable enough to handle the wire brush when you clean the hex?


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## snowman49820 (Oct 3, 2010)

Jesse, I will get some pictures posted soon. Putting a small Belimo in the front to help with the huffing. Taking it up to the shop to make the changes this week.
Sparke, I built my boiler. You can damage the the board but it's not easy to hook with a brush. Kaowool snags much easier. The only place a little creosote builds
up is on the exchangers. I scrape them with a small hook, then hit them with a shingle torch. Good as new. I slightly angled my exhaust away from the stove, in case
there is condensation. Put a small drain hole in the tee and a one gallon bucket of scented cat litter.
Jimbo, I did make Mastercam drawings before I built mine.


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## Jesse-M (Oct 3, 2010)

Puttin a belimo in front is a good idea, I can see that taking care of the huffing...completely. Would enjoy seeing build pics as to compare with my own. I have a blueprint of my boiler as well...but did it the old fashion way...on a drafting table. Do you have a total cost number ?


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## 2.beans (Oct 3, 2010)

Jesse said:
			
		

> I insulated mine from head to toe. I believe most of my water seepage was due to burning green wood. Insulating the boiler barn helped  as well. The second season was all around better for me. With the barn insulated, and the outside temp at 30...I would be about 60 inside. I wouldn't be to concerned about the intake tubes, If you where to get a leak you would just be cycling hot air ( remember we don't produce smoke ) which will only help the burn. If you did need to replace them, it wouldn't be very hard. I've got mine just sticking into the fire box, not really sealed at all. Took the whole rig out for the rebuild....here's a pic
> 
> Made some progress on the insulation isolation today......pic of that soon


 i think i remember you saying that your boiler huffs? while you have it apart add some more draft tubes and bet that will help out alot. just my two cents. nice boiler by the way.


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## 2.beans (Oct 3, 2010)

Jroz said:
			
		

> Jesse did you add the exhaust damper? I was wonder about doing this. I can have mine shut down for 30 minutes and still see heat coming out the chimney, seems like a great idea.
> 
> ps thx for the pics
> Josh


 i added one to mine a few years ago and it helps the boiler cool down considerably, but if you dont add a gasket to the front door it will smoke like hell out around the door. i ended up cutting the door hinges off and making the door accept a gasket.


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## Jesse-M (Oct 3, 2010)

> i think i remember you saying that your boiler huffs? while you have it apart add some more draft tubes and bet that will help out alot. just my two cents. nice boiler by the way.



Ya know the funny thing is I did just the opposite ....I closed off two of the intake tubes and all but eliminated the huffing problem....can't really explain it, just makes for the right AFR I guess

beans, I recall you being involved in a couple of builds...any build pics of your experiences?


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## 2.beans (Oct 4, 2010)

i have pictures of one one but havent posted anything but i will. been busy. the one i have pics of huffs like crazy unlike mine so were going to play with chimney height to try to fix it. i do agree that its a air/fuel thing, but i dont know why the two bought ones ive helped install dont and the homemade does. its very simple principle no magic.


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## sparke (Oct 6, 2010)

I finally got motivated to make some of the changes I have been wanting to experiment with.  I am going to put refractory all the way up the sides and above the hex.  I bought the refractory and will post pics when I am done.  I have ss needles to put in the mix but does anyone know what type of material I can put in the top piece (over the hex). It is going to be 28" x 25" x 1.5" thick.  I would like it to be thicker but need to save room for 3" of insulation.   I am thinking ss mesh...  I think there needs to be more support for the top piece so gravity and heat wont destroy it.  Anyone have any ideas? Think ss mesh will be adequte?


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## bigburner (Oct 6, 2010)

you could try SS mesh but don't be surprised if it fails, the expansion between the castalble and mesh may be a problem, in overhead kilns and such the fire brick is hung on wire clips and just hang from it. Me I would pour it in an arch with some wire in the middle build a metal rack above the whole top add as much insulation as I needed and then cover with sheet metal.


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## Jesse-M (Oct 7, 2010)

sparke said:
			
		

> I finally got motivated to make some of the changes I have been wanting to experiment with.  I am going to put refractory all the way up the sides and above the hex.  I bought the refractory and will post pics when I am done.  I have ss needles to put in the mix but does anyone know what type of material I can put in the top piece (over the hex). It is going to be 28" x 25" x 1.5" thick.  I would like it to be thicker but need to save room for 3" of insulation.   I am thinking ss mesh...  I think there needs to be more support for the top piece so gravity and heat wont destroy it.  Anyone have any ideas? Think ss mesh will be adequte?



What is your thought process on the overhead refractory......... more heat to the pressure vessel?.........less heat to the top skin?........More efficient burn cycles?.......protection for the insulation?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 7, 2010)

Though it won't happen this year, I too would like refractory above the HX. I am thinking it would retain the heat much better than the rockwool.

My thought would be to use blocks which set into boiler plate that runs across the top of the HX. Make the refractory in like 6-8" strips, allowing for movement.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 7, 2010)

Posting a pic of Deere's Side . . .




This one is of my side. This is the pattern for how I will cut the new sheet. The bottom hole is for cleaning out the ash.


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## Trzebs13 (Oct 8, 2010)

I defiantly like the idea of some kink of refractory above the Hx but I would not think that any kind of metal in the casting would be a good idea. Metal is going to expand at a much larger rate than the Brick mix. So as it heats and cools it will start with tiny cracks around the metal and then probably just crack up totally. I think I would try to put as much of a curve on the corners that would fit. And maybe even pour some holes in the top of it and put some kind of hangers to help support it. But would defiantly try to engineer as much strenghth in the design / shape. I think what this would do, is reflect more of the heat down on the Hx. The top skin would probably be much cooler and would force the excess heat that doesn't get transferred up the chimney. Which would probably help some of the problems we have.


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## muleman51 (Oct 8, 2010)

Great pictures, but how are you going to insulate those holes and seal them so they don't smoke you out. Good Luck


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 8, 2010)

LOL< can always count on the mule to see the negative side . . . I can't speak for Deere, but my plan is to attach the insulation to the access panels which will go over the holes.

As far as the refractory hanging system . . . I envision grooves cast into individual pieces of refractory, with the groove setting into a corresponding ridge in the boiler plate. I'm thinking that would alow for movement back and forth.

Jimbo


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## 2.beans (Oct 10, 2010)

not to sound like an ass but what differential on the draft door is everyone running? please everyone interested please post.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 10, 2010)

What does an ass sound like??

Anyway . . . I run the factory setting of +/- 10 °F , most of the season that translates to 170-190 °F . Sometimes I run it hotter, rarely do I run it a bit cooler.

Jimbo


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## Trzebs13 (Oct 10, 2010)

I run about 165-180 My aquastats are non ajustable as far as the split.  I think there suppose to be +/- 10 but they seem to be more like 15-17.  Which I really don't like that big of a split.  Seems like I get a far amount of over run, so it get to 190-195 and hits the dump a far amount.


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## 2.beans (Oct 11, 2010)

ok do you think if you were to run the differential closer to 10* (close at 180 open at 170) that would help with the water dripping?


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## Vinced (Oct 11, 2010)

Dumb question. Why not just put a firebrick all the way up the sides and make a grate and put firebrick or castable refractory on the top. Then attach a steel skin to the angle frame against the refractory. Then insulate and put a steel exterior skin on it? It doesn't seem right to expose insulation to the smoke and whatever is in the byproduct of wood burning. Insulation is just to retain heat. Oterwise they wouldn't they make decorative insulation for the exterior of homes, then there would be no need for siding (just an example). I don't own a boiler like this but do have an outside wood boiler. I always admired the simplicity of the design of the Seton style boilers and would consider building one when my current boiler dies. Please don't bash me to bad. I'm just wondering?


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## 2.beans (Oct 12, 2010)

i own a seton boiler and mine doesnt drip , but ive made alot of changes since ive bought it. even at the beginning i had no drip, but have seen others that do. i still believe its boiler sizing to load but also there is a way to overcome it with or without storage whether it be more/less draft or longer/shorter idle times.


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## sparke (Oct 12, 2010)

I just installed the new refractory.  This is what it looks like.  http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p83/sparkie68/Refractory/

Jesse, I am hoping to achieve everything you mentioned with the new refractory,  I am also hoping to be able to clean the hex now with out worrying about snagging the insulation above the hex...


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## Pat53 (Oct 12, 2010)

snowman49820 said:
			
		

> sparke said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



snowman, when you say "refractory board", do you mean firebrick, or an actual sheet of material?  Also, how thick is this board?
thx, Pat


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 12, 2010)

:lol:    :lol:    :lol: 

All of GreenWood/GreenFire/Adobe/Seton yada, yada, yada research and development has now been subbed out to the Hearth Gang.

Wanna bet some  Corporate nitwit is gonna try to say we stole his design?

 :coolsmirk:   :coolsmirk:    :coolsmirk:


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## Jesse-M (Oct 13, 2010)

sparke said:
			
		

> I just installed the new refractory.  This is what it looks like.  http://s126.photobucket.com/albums/p83/sparkie68/Refractory/
> 
> Jesse, I am hoping to achieve everything you mentioned with the new refractory,  I am also hoping to be able to clean the hex now with out worrying about snagging the insulation above the hex...



Nice work, looks good.....Will be interesting to see how your unit works for you now. Keep us posted on how the changes work.
( Did you cast those pieces yourself, and what kinda money was involved for material? )


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## Trzebs13 (Oct 13, 2010)

Very nice work Sparke,  It would be intresting to know some of the temp differences you'll get.  Top of skin and the flue temps.  Are you going to insulate the back compartment as long as you have it apart?   It will be intresting to see what kind of changes you notice.


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## sparke (Oct 13, 2010)

I did cast the pieces myself.  I made forms from 2x4 and plywood.  It took 3 bags of 50 lb refractory ( I ran short on the second side had to cheat and put some old refractory bricks in the form to make up for about 25lb of refractory).  This cost $240 that include 3.5lbs of stainless needles.  The top is 2 pieces 14" x 28"x 1.5" thick.  The sides are 7.5"x 28" x 3.5". 

I did not do anything with the back but I put as much insulation on the sides and top as possible.  I feel most of the heat is absorbed by the hex,  I have never had an issue with the back of the boiler being to hot, but it will be interesting to see if you guys notice a difference.  That said, I didnt want to put more insulation back there blocking the exhaust path.  It doesnt seem like there is alot of room for the fumes to get by the back wall and Hex as it is.   I still need to take side off again(next year) and make access holes like Jimbo's pics.  That will hopefully be my final change...  I will make final tweaks then. 

I will keep you guys posted on changes I notice.  If I dont see a performance increase, at least I will be able to clean the top of the HEX now without snagging the insulation...


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 13, 2010)

Sparke:

Can you give us a link to where you got the refractory and SS needles?

Is the original refractory a one-piece unit, or sectional? If I remember correctly, the Setons are sectional. I can't remember about your GreeFire.

Did you bake the refractory after you formed it, and if so, how?

Jimbo


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## sparke (Oct 13, 2010)

I bought the refractory and ss needles at a local concrete plant.  I dont know anyone with a kiln so I am going to build several small fires and let them go out before I really fire it.  Not sure about greenwood but my unit had alot of moisture come out the first few fires so I guess curing them via normal fires works.  Yes my unit is sectional, 3 pieces originally, now 7 : )


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 13, 2010)

This thread is taking on a life of it's own :bug: 

So, I decided on 16ga mild steel. I decided I wanted to test the access panels before I plunk down casholla on SS and then find out it don't work. I also ordered the two types of insulation from McMaster-Carr. They don't give you a shipping quote!! rathbastages :coolgrin: 

Much as I'd like to experiment with refractory and controls, not this year.

Jimbo


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## tom in maine (Oct 13, 2010)

Sparke, nice job.
Refractory this thick will take a while to dry out. If there wasn't any info on the bag, it might be prudent to let it dry naturally for several (3 or 4) weeks.
If you fire it too much, it will crack from the moisture that is in the middle of the casting.
As one who has messed up his share of refractory, long drying times are good.


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## Deere10 (Oct 13, 2010)

Jimbo what did you order for insulation? I used Roxul from a local lumberyard. I was told it is fireproof and has a 2150 temp rating for it. I hope it will hold up. Hoping to finish project rebuild this wknd. Is the angle of the pipe on the top of the unit critical? I replaced the top nipple and missed the angle by about an inch at the rearof the unit.Has been starting to cool off little by little getting a litlle bit itchy to fire this up again.  Thanks


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## sparke (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks for the info Tom.

FYI - Roxul is the exact same board they sell at F.W Webb.  Not sure if you have that store in your area.  It seems to be much cheaper at Webbs then the lumber store.  They quoted me something like 30 bucks a board for 3".  I paid about 9 bucks a piece for  2" boards...


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## 2.beans (Oct 14, 2010)

sparke that looks nice, very nice. it will be interesting to see the results


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## Trzebs13 (Oct 19, 2010)

Well I finally had to scratch my itch and light a fire.  And the resuls are less than stunning.  I fired it with 2.5 yr seasond oak splits and some construction scraps.  And even after having it fire wide open for at least 4 hrs the thing is still dripping.  I'm really puzzled where this comes from.  On a good note the back (outside) of the unit seems to be much cooler on the skins.  And I can't really measure it but It did seem like I got less tempature drop when the infloor kicked in.  But not like it's that cold out.

Well that's what experamenting is about.  If you don't make many mistakes then, you must not do much.


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## Deere10 (Oct 19, 2010)

Fired mine up Sunday morning after the re assembly. No leaks....Yeah...   So far so good  house at 72 n toasty. Ya  not that its cold either. I dont have any Huffing or Dripping,and didnt last year either. Maybe just dumb luck.  No Oak here,just some damp ash that I didnt get in the shed before the big rains we had here a couple weeks ago.  Just perch them up in front of the door for 6 hrs or so seems to be helping though.


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## Jesse-M (Oct 19, 2010)

Jesse said:
			
		

> I'm in the process of rebuilding mine now. Going to try something completely different with the insulation to where it wont be exposed to the elements of the fire. I don't like the way the insulation acts in the corners. ( collects creosote ) Basically what I'm doing would be like removing the insulation from the inside and wrapping the out side, only different. In my opinion it will work much better. I agree that long hot burns with no idle time would probably help this a bunch but I don't have storage and won't for some time. I'm documenting my rebuild and will post pics soon.



OK .....I've found that everywhere the insulation is in contact with metal, I have a deterioration problem. I wanted to get the insulation away from the smoke, creosote, and moisture. New *INNER* skins....new insulation....original outer skins.



.


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## Trzebs13 (Oct 19, 2010)

Now that looks nice  You must be a fabracator or have good access to a fab shop.  How thick is that sheeting?  And is your main intention to stop the corosin?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 19, 2010)

LOL, Jess, yer gonna have to get about 35k per unit in order to get into the black before the warrenty claims start . . .


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## sparke (Oct 19, 2010)

Jesse, that is awesome looking work. I bet you could sell a ton of those to GW owners.  You could make a 2 -piece side panel as a retrofit.  When we take off a side to clean, no need to replace insulation.  Well done!  I will be your first customer!  

Question: Are you only using 2" of insulation?  I tried 2" on the sides once and it was not enough...


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## sparke (Oct 19, 2010)

I wonder if the inside skin will stand up to the intense heat?  Keep us posted on warping or any other issues your new design may encounter.  Again, very nice job!


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## Jesse-M (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm pretty fond of the fab work. it's something I really enjoy and save me a boat load of money. The metal is 16ga except for the top....it's 14ga....cross broke and will get interior stiffeners as well. I'm not worried about the sides or back withstanding the heat, but the top will either get a ceramic coating or some sort of refractory lining. Other than the fact that I couldn't stand seeing the insulation that way at the end of the season....I want to slow up or stop the deterioration associated with it. The insulation thickness will remain the same as I was using before....3" top, 2.75" sides and 2" back and front.


Will it work without complications.........My thought is .........don't know until you try.


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## snowman49820 (Oct 22, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> snowman49820 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is 2" thick high temp fiber board. It comes 1'x3'


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## Jesse-M (Oct 31, 2010)

Jesse said:
			
		

> .




Just an update...Got the top inner skin done the way I wanted it, and got it back together.


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## tigermaple (Oct 31, 2010)

Jesse,
Great work, I can't wait till you get that puppy up and runnin. I wish Greenwood put half the thought in R&D as you did.


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## Trzebs13 (Nov 1, 2010)

Very very nice,  well done!  You sure have put some hours in to it.


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## Pat53 (Nov 1, 2010)

I wonder how this stuff would work? Looks like you can cut it and drill into it no problem.

http://www.fiberfrax.com/files/Fiberfrax-Duraboard.pdf


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## sixroses (Nov 1, 2010)

Seems strange that I have never had the dripping issue that is discussed. Sometimes I have perfect wood but most times I do burn some wood that is still green or moist. I do run full out fires most of the time. 90% of my wood is birch, a little poplar and some spruce is all I can find around here within a thousand miles?!
Steve


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## Jesse-M (Nov 2, 2010)

tigermaple said:
			
		

> Jesse,
> Great work, I can't wait till you get that puppy up and runnin. I wish Greenwood put half the thought in R&D as you did.



I will be firing it this weekend, hopefully all goes well....already feel more comfortable with the new setup.


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## sparke (Nov 3, 2010)

I would agree that the dripping/condensation issue is due to idling.  My unit runs full out and I have never had this issue...

Jesse keep us posted on the upgrades.  I have fired my unit several times now.  I notice a small difference with the refractory overhead but not huge.  I am not sure I would do it again,  I don't notice that much of a difference.  The one really good thing about it - I can clean the hex real good with out snagging insulation...


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 3, 2010)

Sparke  -  keep us posted also  

What is the distance between the top of the HX and your new refractory? I ask because I am thinking that the refractory will eliminate the need for any mid-season HX cleaning.


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## sparke (Nov 4, 2010)

> What is the distance between the top of the HX and your new refractory? I ask because I am thinking that the refractory will eliminate the need for any mid-season HX cleaning.



Approx. 1" , hopefully one of the benefits will indeed be a cleaner/self cleaning HX.  I have not looked at it (HX) or had extended burns yet so there may be benefits I have not noticed yet.  If I notice anything interesting I will let y'all know.


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## 2.beans (Nov 17, 2010)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> Well I finally had to scratch my itch and light a fire.  And the resuls are less than stunning.  I fired it with 2.5 yr seasond oak splits and some construction scraps.  And even after having it fire wide open for at least 4 hrs the thing is still dripping.  I'm really puzzled where this comes from.  On a good note the back (outside) of the unit seems to be much cooler on the skins.  And I can't really measure it but It did seem like I got less tempature drop when the infloor kicked in.  But not like it's that cold out.
> 
> Well that's what experamenting is about.  If you don't make many mistakes then, you must not do much.


 my boiler acted like this when i first got it ( seton w200 ). i called fred seton and told him my issue. he asked how tall my chimney was. at that time it was at 18 feet. he said to add 3 feet. i thought he was crazy but i did it anyways. sure enough the dripping stopped. i do feel that green wood is going to give issues regardless of chimney height but the wood your burning should be plenty dry enough.


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## Trzebs13 (Nov 17, 2010)

20 feet,  Holy cow!  I guess I've never heard that one but I guess more draw would move that air faster.  Mine is 15' and it already seems like it is half way to heaven compaired to my roof line.  The funny thing is is that when I posted that it was sitll drippin. Was Just after that first fire.  Ever since that first couple days it hasn'e dripped a drop. In fact you can't even smell the beast is even in there.  I think it heard me swearing at it, and took the threats to heart.

The first 2 seasons I did burn allot more rounds and the wood was only seasoned for about 12 mths.  I do agree that these will burn green rounds but I do mot buy into the fact that it is the best way to go.  I split all my big stuff at least in half.  I have took moisture readings on large rounds and oak does not dry much if it is 9" or bigger unsplit.


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## 2.beans (Nov 17, 2010)

have you ever measured your draft? ive done alot adjusting to mine to get it right. just a little bit of change makes a big difference on how it runs. obviously lower is better but to low you'll get problems like smell slow starting fires and the nasty drip.


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## Trzebs13 (Nov 17, 2010)

No I have never measued the draft or the exhaust temps.  But I think by insulating and plating the secondary chamber the my exhaust temps must be higher since the skinks on the back are probably at least 50 deg cooler.  Now even with a big fire you can put your hand anywhere along the back.  So that heat must be going either in the Hx or up the chimney.


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## Jesse-M (Oct 19, 2011)

Have to drag up an old thread to up date the progress of my inner panels.
During the season I was very happy with the new updates. I had no dripping around the unit at all. I also feel like the pressure vessel stayed a bit cleaner than usual. ( could be my imagination ) And most important of all.....I wasn't worried about my insulation. I don't remember if I ever posted it, but the first season I had an issue with my top piece becoming saturated with creosote, smoldering hot enough to deform my top skin and liquefying the galvanized coating.
I finally got around to taking the back off the other day to clean it up for this season and was happy with what I saw.....

*The outer skin off*







*The backside of the inner skin......no warp-age or deform-age*






*The condition of my pressure vessel after the season ( normal for me )*






*The top inner skin with patented space shuttle asbestos panels didn't warp or move a bit*





*
Even the insulation I wrapped in aluminum foil to fill the corner gaps held up great*






I was also able to view the side panels and they looked good as well.

Keep in mind that I finished the season with slow, little, shoulder season burns witch cause the HX and panels to look the way they do in the pics. In the middle of winter they are white and chalky.

*One final shot after cleaning*


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## 2.beans (Oct 20, 2011)

did you build storage this year?


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## trailhound68 (Oct 20, 2011)

Jesse said:
			
		

> first season I had an issue with my top piece becoming saturated with creosote, smoldering hot enough to deform my top skin and liquefying the galvanized coating.


"issue"? I call that friggin' scary. Did you have yer custom made skins at that time? On the lid too?


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## Jesse-M (Oct 20, 2011)

2.beans said:
			
		

> did you build storage this year?



No I didn't.....maybe some day.




			
				trailhound68 said:
			
		

> Jesse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My original build top was 16ga with support braces, weld on .25" bolts with fender washers holding the rock wool up. After awhile the insulation sagged a little and left a gap between the skin. Once that became saturated with creosote....it made for a nice little burn area.
The top now has the inner liner, insulation, and .25" plate.

*My first top*


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## Jesse-M (Oct 20, 2011)

This is my first top with described melt down area & creosote 
The second pic is try #2, .25" plate with insulation still exposed ( much better, but couldn't stand seeing the insulation that way )


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Oct 20, 2011)

Looking Good

Reminds me I need to clean/inspect/repair the Green beast soon. I may have a line on a slightly used GW. If I can get it for the right price I may use that one as a basis for a whole new unit.

I just need to find someone looking to trade a decent stick/TIG machine for a ZZR1200 rocket.


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## Trzebs13 (Oct 20, 2011)

Jesse,  Great to hear that it seems to be workin out.  You went the extra mile and looks like it's paying off.  

The changes seem to be holding up good for me as well.  The only dripping I got this year is that first time it fires up.  nothing since.
Had to break down and light it up this week.  Oh well here we go!!


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## Jesse-M (Oct 20, 2011)

Trzebs13 said:
			
		

> Had to break down and light it up this week.  Oh well here we go!!



As hard as I tried to wait longer.......I fired it up this week also.


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## henfruit (Oct 21, 2011)

Did i hear that the company in ohio is no longer making the setons? Did not want to pay the cost of the epa test?


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## duane9835 (Dec 30, 2013)

I just read this whole thread and you guys blew my mind!  I had the same sort of idea as you Jesse but was looking for a little reasurrance i guess????  WOW i need to digest all that and do some replanning....


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## duane9835 (Dec 31, 2013)

Do you guys have any updates?  Or other threads i should read?


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