# Considering a pellet furnace



## lmholmes11 (Jul 27, 2014)

I hope this is the right section to post in. I am new to forums. After doing countless google searches on pellet furnaces, pellet usage, etc I decided to just start a new thread.

I have a 4,000 sqft home, 2200 which will be heated. I am located in Northern Michigan where we get brutal winters. Currently the home has a forced air propane furnace. I am thinking about a pellet furnace. Since we have small children I don't want a free standing stove. Around here 1 ton of pellets cost around $200. My first question is, what pellet furnace do you all recommend? Secondly, if I keep the house at around 72 degrees apx. how many bags per day would you expect me to use? The house was built in 1996 and has decent insulation. How many bags per day do you all use? Thanks everyone.


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## mithesaint (Jul 28, 2014)

Welcome to the pellet world.  You might reconsider the free standing stove option.  I've had a free stander for three winters now, and have a 3 year old and almost 5 year old.  The oldest has never touched the stove, and the youngest tapped it once.  Frankly, I haven't really taken any major precautions besides the obvious either.  There are gates and other things that you can do to keep kids away from the stove, but I think most don't have any problems with the kids.  The only reason I bring this up is that a free standing stove is going to be thousands of dollars cheaper than a furnace by the time you consider installation costs.

That being said, a furnace is nice.  Even heat, the noise and mess is not in your living space, you can keep part of your living space rather than losing it to something you only use 8 months out of the year.  

I think the Harman PF 100 is the most common furnace.  It will heat your 2200 sq ft with ease.  Fully automatic, adjusts flow for the amount of heat needed, etc.  5K plus installation costs.  Around here installation would run $2-2500 depending on the house, so plan on $7K and you won't be surprised.

The Fahrenheit 50F gets good reviews, but might be undersized for your sq ft and climate.  

St. Croix used to make furnaces, but has stopped for now.  I found a brand new old stock SCF 050 for $1400, and am installing that in the basement this summer.  You might be able to find one, but they're hard to come by, and you would want the Revolution model.  More BTU and it's automatic.

The Caddy Alterna looks like a great unit, but I don't know anyone who has one.  Lots of options for backup electric heat and a hot water loop too.  Pricey.

There are also the pinnacle units.  I looked at the GBU 70, but it wasn't automatic.  For almost 5K, the fully automatic Harman makes more sense to me.

I would plan on going through 2-3 bags per day, maybe a 4th if it's really cold and you're using a furnace.

Good luck!


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## lmholmes11 (Jul 28, 2014)

I was looking at the Magnum 7500. I agree the furnaces are way more expensive. I am concerned that having just a stove upstairs won't get heat into all of the rooms. Also, it probably wouldn't get heat into the basement to protect against freezing pipes? 

Wow, $2,000 seems like a lot for installation I didn't figure it'd be that much. 



http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNUM-7500...858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51be00c69a


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## tjnamtiw (Jul 28, 2014)

Your $200 a ton price seems awfully low.  You might want to recheck that and also do some searching on here looking at the pricing horror stories this past winter when there was a pellet shortage.  People were willingly paying outrageous prices and enduring rationing of just a few bags a day.  Hopefully, that won't happen again but the suppliers probably learned what price points people are willing to pay and will adjust their prices accordingly.  
Still, getting rid of propane has got to be a great incentive!


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## Owen1508 (Jul 28, 2014)

A King 8500 runs under $3K at a few locations  HD, TSC, Northern Tool, Mid states and Family Farm and Home.  Go check out all the furnaces you can at different stores, ask questions and decide. The pounds per hour will depend on your BTU needs.  An 8500 max BTU inut is around 105K, so that would be 12 pounds. That would give you around 3000 Sq Ft of heating.  A hugh plus with a furnace is heating through the duct work,  It's easier then using fans to push the heat around the house.

EDIT: also wanted to mention that the 8500 is a multi-fuel...works with 100% pellets, corn, various other fuels and mixes of the same.  Might be something to throw in the decision as TJ sais pellets went short some last winter.  Corn is still high the future is unknown.


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## lmholmes11 (Jul 28, 2014)

As far as pricing I will be getting pellets at a very deep discount because my best friends family owns Monarch mill works in Grayling, MI and they make wood pellets (they didn't run out last winter).


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## Owen1508 (Jul 28, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> As far as pricing I will be getting pellets at a very deep discount because my best friends family owns Monarch mill works in Grayling, MI and they make wood pellets (they didn't run out last winter).


 
Good friend to have


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## moey (Jul 28, 2014)

Have you looked at the Fahrenheit furnaces? They are in Holland MI I think they seem pretty popular in the midwest. No way you need the size of PF100 sizewise. Bigger is not better when it comes to a heating appliance despite what people preach they just want you to spend more. Unless your missing the side of your house or live on Lake Superior with a stiff wind all day and night Id be surprised if something in the 40-50k btu range would not meet 99.9% of your needs. 

We heat our house on 44k btu geothermal system the only time it lost a degree was when it was -26F outside. Its 2000sq/ft house built in the mid 80s. Its oversize for our house is what Im getting at. Do a heat loss calculation or extract one from previous years I think you would be surprised about your requirements.


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## lmholmes11 (Jul 28, 2014)

Yeah I've looked at the Fahrenheit furnace but thought it'd be too small and also I didn't see prices on any of them..


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## mithesaint (Jul 28, 2014)

moey said:


> Have you looked at the Fahrenheit furnaces? They are in Holland MI I think they seem pretty popular in the midwest. No way you need the size of PF100 sizewise. Bigger is not better when it comes to a heating appliance despite what people preach they just want you to spend more. Unless your missing the side of your house or live on Lake Superior with a stiff wind all day and night Id be surprised if something in the 40-50k btu range would not meet 99.9% of your needs.
> 
> We heat our house on 44k btu geothermal system the only time it lost a degree was when it was -26F outside. Its 2000sq/ft house built in the mid 80s. Its oversize for our house is what Im getting at. Do a heat loss calculation or extract one from previous years I think you would be surprised about your requirements.



I have a 2400 sq ft colonial in NW OH.  I have an Englander 10-cpm, which is rated for about 52k btu IIRC.  It does a decent job with my house, but when it gets really cold and/or really windy it loses the battle.  I have no idea how well the OP's house is air sealed or insulated, but I have a feeling that in northern MI he's gonna need more than 50k btu.


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## lmholmes11 (Jul 29, 2014)

Ya I think ill need at least 75k btu...but I'm not sure. How do you guys vent the exhaust out from the stove if the stove is in the middle of the basement and not near an outside wall?


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## moey (Jul 29, 2014)

Why not do a heat loss calculation? Slant fin has a heat loss calculator available for download http://www.pvsullivan.com/Downloads.html . You can also extract heat loss if you know how much propane you burned in a given year ( although admittingly I don't know exactly how to do it ).

You also do not need to handle extremes if your heat loss if 50k when its -20F with a 20mph wind once a year sizing a unit to that day is a mistake. You can you propane furnace for the hour when your heat loss is that high if you want your house at 72F. Assuming your not getting rid of it. Something to think about spending 2-3k more to accommodate extremes will never be recouped. Running a larger unit choked off is not as efficient and will cost you in the long run. Furnaces cycle not like a boiler which can have a storage tank to avoid short cycling.


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## mithesaint (Jul 29, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> Ya I think ill need at least 75k btu...but I'm not sure. How do you guys vent the exhaust out from the stove if the stove is in the middle of the basement and not near an outside wall?



You want as short of an exhaust run as possible.  Long exhaust runs lead to ash buildup and dirty burns.  Put the unit as close to the wall as possible.  That, or if you have access to an old chimney, you can potentially drop a liner down the chimney.


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## lmholmes11 (Jul 30, 2014)

I was assuming I had to instal the furnace next to my existing furnace but I guess that's not the case. I could install next to one of the foundation walls but that'll be more runs I'd have to make


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## Owen1508 (Jul 30, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> I was assuming I had to instal the furnace next to my existing furnace but I guess that's not the case. I could install next to one of the foundation walls but that'll be more runs I'd have to make


 
You were planning to tie the new pellet furnace in to the trunk of your exsisting furnace correct?


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## sinnian (Jul 30, 2014)

mithesaint said:


> I think the Harman PF 100 is the most common furnace.  It will heat your 2200 sq ft with ease.  Fully automatic, adjusts flow for the amount of heat needed, etc.  5K plus installation costs.  Around here installation would run $2-2500 depending on the house, so plan on $7K and you won't be surprised.
> 
> There are also the pinnacle units.  I looked at the GBU 70, but it wasn't automatic.  For almost 5K, the fully automatic Harman makes more sense to me.



First, the PF 100 is $6K

Second, what makes the Harman anymore automatic than the Pinnacle?

Third, the Pinnacle GBU is the longest running pellet furnace in North America ~ proven and bullet proof, and can be had for under $5K.


Installation costs totally depend on placement, and how you want it hooked up ~ AND whether you can do any of it yourself.

VENTING will be totally different between the Harman and Pinnacle.  While Harman says you can direct vent (which I wouldn't do IMHO), Pinnacle requires a proper solid fuels venting (rise, draft, etc.).


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## mithesaint (Jul 30, 2014)

sinnian said:


> First, the PF 100 is $6K
> 
> Second, what makes the Harman anymore automatic than the Pinnacle?
> 
> ...



When I was look at the PF 100 a few months ago, the list price was somewhere in the $5400 neighborhood.  My dealer was giving $250 off the top right away, which leaves it at $5150-ish.  I rounded down, my mistake.  Since then, I see that Harman is advertising the PF 120, which is indeed 6K.  When I looked at the GBU, it was $4800 or so, plus shipping.  At that point, they were essentially the same price, install not withstanding.

As far as I can tell, the GBU 70 has to be manually lit.  The PF has an ignitor.  For me, that's a huge difference.  My house has a ton of solar gain, and I can turn the stove off for hours at 15 degrees outside if it's sunny.  If the furnace won't turn off, it's 80 degrees or worse in the house, even running on low.  That's the difference for me.


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## hyfire (Jul 31, 2014)

I would go with the Fahrenheit 50F and use a ductless split heat pump in supplement the btu shortfall and emergency heat. A very interesting unit is the LG ls240hsv3 with 27,000k of heating capacity  using less than 2.4Kw of power.  So your getting about 8kw of heat for only 2.4kw input but only when its about 43F outside.


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## Eagle Rock (Aug 3, 2014)

I'm in a similar situation.  2500 sq ft newer construction (2003), good insulation/windows.  I was looking at an OWB but am quickly getting turned onto the pellet furnace.  I can only find a Harman PB 105 while researching which I assume replaced the 100?  I'm not sure if it's actually going to be more than what I need though.  I have hot water baseboard heat and want to heat my domestic hot water off it.  I guess I'll have to hit the showroom to get more opinions as I just realized my friends brother sells them.  Anybody that have these that can speak to pros and cons?  Maintenance?  Someone suggested a Froling but they are looking like they would be very expensive.


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 4, 2014)

Just found out that the house we are buying went through 1,312.5 gallons of propane last year. It wasn't all from heating because I think its a gas water heater. Would I really save any money with pellets? I think I've heard people are pre-buying at 1.60 ish /gal.


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## TimfromMA (Aug 4, 2014)

I have an oil furnace. Even though I still require oil for hot water, installation of a pellet stove cut my heating costs by about 50%.


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## moey (Aug 4, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> Just found out that the house we are buying went through 1,312.5 gallons of propane last year. It wasn't all from heating because I think its a gas water heater. Would I really save any money with pellets? I think I've heard people are pre-buying at 1.60 ish /gal.



At that price the savings would be minimal maybe 20%. Here's a load calculator www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/heatcalc.xls there are lots out there. A lot of people on here are from the northeast we don't see propane prices like those.


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## sinnian (Aug 5, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> Just found out that the house we are buying went through 1,312.5 gallons of propane last year. It wasn't all from heating because I think its a gas water heater. Would I really save any money with pellets? I think I've heard people are pre-buying at 1.60 ish /gal.




Didn't that area of the country have a propane shortage last year, ie. run out?


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 5, 2014)

That was southern michigan. Prices reached $5/gal. !


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## Don2222 (Aug 5, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> I was looking at the Magnum 7500. I agree the furnaces are way more expensive. I am concerned that having just a stove upstairs won't get heat into all of the rooms. Also, it probably wouldn't get heat into the basement to protect against freezing pipes?
> 
> Wow, $2,000 seems like a lot for installation I didn't figure it'd be that much.
> 
> ...


Hello
The Magnum 7500 and 6500 furnaces are not in production anymore but the parts are still being supplied and are easy to get.


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## mithesaint (Aug 5, 2014)

sinnian said:


> Didn't that area of the country have a propane shortage last year, ie. run out?



Yep.  We had that in Ohio too.  They were only delivering 100 gallons at a time, and they were charging over $4 per gallon.  I heard of a few people that actually ran out, and couldn't get any.  Yikes.


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 5, 2014)

Just called the propane company in town. The price is at $1.65/gal, with a cap of $2.20/gal until June of 2015. So considering the house we are buying went through 1,210 gallons two years ago, and 1,300 gallons last year, I have some math to do. I'm figuring ill use around 2-3 bags of pellets per day


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 6, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> Hello
> The Magnum 7500 and 6500 furnaces are not in production anymore but the parts are still being supplied and are easy to get.




Good to know. What kind of reputation do these stoves have?


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## Bioburner (Aug 6, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> Good to know. What kind of reputation do these stoves have?


High maintenance, little bigger version of the Magnum 3500P stove who's claim to be the first designed for multifuel. If it was free along the curb I would probably keep going but I have fed a couple of the stoves for ten years plus.


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 6, 2014)

Okay so probably keep looking past that one then eh? My max is 6k


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 6, 2014)

I really wish I knew how many tons of pellets I'd go through in a winter .lol.


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## TimfromMA (Aug 6, 2014)

I don't know how big your house is but 3 - 4 tons for 2200 sqft house is typical


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## sinnian (Aug 6, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> I really wish I knew how many tons of pellets I'd go through in a winter .lol.




About 7 1/2 tons of pellets based on 1,300 gallons of propane.

http://www.oregonwoodheat.com/CornPricesBW.pdf


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 6, 2014)

Hmm. Our water heater is propane also so maybe take 2 or 300 gallons off of that then?


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## Pellet-King (Aug 8, 2014)

Remember pellet stoves/furnaces need maintainance, weekly/monthly cleanings, loading bags daily etc, alot more work than just turning the tstat on and off, also you didnt say your main furnace was staying or going?, pellet furnace as the primary heating source will make your home a hard sell, and how are you getting the pellets to your home?, delivery?, your own truck, who's going to move and stack 5+ tons of pellets a season? for the cost's to buy and install plus pellet's you can buy alot of propane, I'd say leave well enough alone first few year's.
Also that's a pretty big house, If you can afford to buy it you can afford to heat it!
My kids are 21 and 18, they have never lived in my house with a equally heated space, pellet /woodstoves are just space heater's hot in 1 room, cold in the next, a furnace would be the best whole house heating optin but will come with more substantial cost's
Anyone here telling you there using a stove in there living room and it's 75 and it's just as warm in the otherside of the house is full of Chit!!


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## moey (Aug 8, 2014)

You could also look into a mini split depending on how your house is layed out.


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 8, 2014)

Our main furnace will be staying as a back up. Most of it will be delivery but ill get some from the plant as well from time to time. I know the furnace will be a bit more compared to a stove at first but I figure since I'm getting such a huge discount on pellets it'll make up for it.


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 11, 2014)

has anyone heard of this furnace?

http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=125&product_id=979


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## moey (Aug 11, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> Our main furnace will be staying as a back up. Most of it will be delivery but ill get some from the plant as well from time to time. I know the furnace will be a bit more compared to a stove at first but I figure since I'm getting such a huge discount on pellets it'll make up for it.



Your paying more but you will probably be more comfortable. No hot and cold rooms you get what you pay for.


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 11, 2014)

I found a new Fahrenheit furnace for $2,800 on craigslist


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## stayfitz (Aug 11, 2014)

New?! Seems like a good deal! What is the typical price from a MI dealer?


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## lmholmes11 (Aug 11, 2014)

Yeah it's new. To be honest I don't know what they go for around here. I also found a " a-maize-ing heat "pellet furnace on eBay. I've done some re searching on google about these units. Has anyone used them or know about them?


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## Owen1508 (Aug 12, 2014)

lmholmes11 said:


> has anyone heard of this furnace?
> 
> http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=125&product_id=979


 
I know that unit very well.  It's a highly controlable unit and easy to operate.  The max input on that is  13 pounds from the factory.  It can be adjust anywhere from 1 to 20 pounds an hour depending on what you want.  That would meet you needs easily.


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