# Thermopex or Logstor, any failures out there yet?



## goosegunner (Jul 12, 2010)

I am getting ready to do my permanent underground lines. I have found a foamer that will spray in place but it seems that the foam could degrade over time or be compromised by insects.

Thinking about logstor pipe for $12/ foot. has anyone seen a failure in pipe like logstor or thermopex?



I have also considered using a drain tile set with 2  1" alumapex wrapped in microfoil insulation. I would then have it sprayed in place. The microfoil set claims to be R14. The tile would be protected by the spray foam to further insulate and waterproof.



gg


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## harttj (Jul 12, 2010)

I am only on my third year with thermopex, have been very happy so far.

Tim


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## Perfect Heat (Jul 12, 2010)

I have been happy with the Logstor. Temp loss over 70ft is about 1 degree.


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## JMann (Jul 12, 2010)

Very happy with Thermopex - great product.


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## taxidermist (Jul 13, 2010)

I have 150' logstor 1" and works good. I just wish I went with 1 1"

Rob


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## goosegunner (Jul 13, 2010)

taxidermist said:
			
		

> I have 150' logstor 1" and works good. I just wish I went with 1 1"
> 
> Rob



I was told the 1" logstor is true 1" id similar to 1-1/4" pex or 1" alumapex. 

One of the reasons I want to upgrade from my 1" lines wrapped with microfoil is I want more flow for my pool heat exchanger.

gg


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## Tennman (Jul 13, 2010)

Your foamer will use closed cell polyurethane if you do the in-the-trench approach. About the only thing in nature destructive to polyurethane is UV and that shouldn't be a problem underground. Certainly no nutritional attraction for insects. Logstor is also insulated with polyurethane foam but encapsulated in corregated plastic. Logstor is a fine product, but your concern about polyurethane deterioration and insects is probably an issue for your great-great-grandchildren. Bottom line, both are good but you can get far more insulation around the pex foaming in the trench for the same money.


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## taxidermist (Jul 13, 2010)

Tennman said:
			
		

> Your foamer will use closed cell polyurethane if you do the in-the-trench approach. About the only thing in nature destructive to polyurethane is UV and that shouldn't be a problem underground. Certainly no nutritional attraction for insects. Logstor is also insulated with polyurethane foam but encapsulated in corregated plastic. Logstor is a fine product, but your concern about polyurethane deterioration and insects is probably an issue for your great-great-grandchildren. Bottom line, both are good but you can get far more insulation around the pex foaming in the trench for the same money.




Also way easier to lay the pex then to wrestle the logstor. If I did it again I would foam it in place.


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## goosegunner (Jul 14, 2010)

Tennman said:
			
		

> Your foamer will use closed cell polyurethane if you do the in-the-trench approach. About the only thing in nature destructive to polyurethane is UV and that shouldn't be a problem underground. Certainly no nutritional attraction for insects. Logstor is also insulated with polyurethane foam but encapsulated in corregated plastic. Logstor is a fine product, but your concern about polyurethane deterioration and insects is probably an issue for your great-great-grandchildren. Bottom line, both are good but you can get far more insulation around the pex foaming in the trench for the same money.




I have seen asian lady beetles chew tracks through blue and pink sheeting. I just wonder what underground critters might do to the foam. It does seem like a great way to get very high R value.

gg


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## jason elmer (Jul 14, 2010)

I had carpenter ants build a summer gallery in Dow blueboard in less than a week.  It was stacked next to a tree and waiting to be installed under the slab.  There were hundreds of ants and eggs in the board.  It is common for carpenter ants to build temporary brood colonies that are later abandoned in the winter.  I was amazed at the speed the colony moved in.  For this reason I would recommend backfilling the trench ASAP.  

I have a lot of mature white pine, perfect ant habitat.  Pileated woodpeckers are never far from my place.  Others living in suburban of farm country might not have the same level of ant populations that I encountered.  These ants could also attack a propane tank sprayed with foam located in an outbuilding.  Coating the tanks with a weather coating material should help keep them out.  This is discussed in a related thread on storage tank insulation.


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## shagy (Jul 14, 2010)

goosegunner said:
			
		

> I am getting ready to do my permanent underground lines. I have found a foamer that will spray in place but it seems that the foam could degrade over time or be compromised by insects.
> 
> Thinking about logstor pipe for $12/ foot. has anyone seen a failure in pipe like logstor or thermopex?
> 
> ...



If that micrefoil was R14 why wouldnt you just wrap your home with it instead of using regular insulation. The Logstor or Thermo pex may be a bugger to put in but you do it once and do it rite.


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## woodsmaster (Jul 18, 2010)

gg[/quote]

If that micrefoil was R14 why wouldnt you just wrap your home with it instead of using regular insulation. The Logstor or Thermo pex may be a bugger to put in but you do it once and do it rite.[/quote]

+ 1      and it is a real PITA Make sure to have some help.


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## ABC1 (Jul 19, 2010)

I have a question regarding this, I have a 250' run from the Wood Boiler to the house. Maybe another 40' to the heat exchanger. Should I use 1-1/4" PEX ? I need to foam in place as I can't afford to run $12/ft tube.


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## juddspaintballs (Jul 19, 2010)

You can find the link in the useful tidbits sticky to calculate the size PEX you'll need for the heat load you have.  Not knowing your heat load and other factors involved, I would suspect that 1-1/4" would be the smallest you go.  FYI, dual runs of 1" has almost the same flow as a single run of 1-1/4", and it's easier to find fittings for and you can find twice as much 1" for about the same or less amount of money as 1-1/4".


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## goosegunner (Jul 20, 2010)

juddspaintballs said:
			
		

> You can find the link in the useful tidbits sticky to calculate the size PEX you'll need for the heat load you have.  Not knowing your heat load and other factors involved, I would suspect that 1-1/4" would be the smallest you go.  FYI, dual runs of 1" has almost the same flow as a single run of 1-1/4", and it's easier to find fittings for and you can find twice as much 1" for about the same or less amount of money as 1-1/4".



Just think how much flow you could get through dual runs of  (4) lines alumapex.  I have used the compression fittings with it and they work very well.

gg


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## charly (Jul 20, 2010)

I remember people posting on here, that also liked MICROFLEX pipe as well. Easy to work with. Thought they said the pricing was good too.


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## goosegunner (Jul 20, 2010)

xclimber said:
			
		

> I remember people posting on here, that also liked MICROFLEX pipe as well. Easy to work with. Thought they said the pricing was good too.



Yes I have read that also but it seems to be impossible to find.

gg


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## charly (Jul 20, 2010)

I think someone else has maybe bought them out. But if you look up Microflex, there are some places on line.


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## charly (Jul 20, 2010)

What I read , Watts bought out Microflex. So I guess you could inquire to, www.watts .com. See whats up. They're in Mass.  Whys all the good stuff so hard to find?????


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## ABC1 (Jul 20, 2010)

Is that the TACO sizing link? This system will use a 150KBTU water to air heat exchanger to start with installed in the existing hot air system plenum. In time the entire 3600 SF house will be updated with radiant heat so I want enough line capacity for the future.


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## shagy (Jul 20, 2010)

goosegunner said:
			
		

> xclimber said:
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If Microflex was so good why cant anyone find it? It probaly was not so great and went out of business. Interesting how most are concerned with cost and ease to install over quality. After all you can buy a set of wrenches at the dollar store for $10... They work but not as good as a set of lets say Craftsman


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## Tennman (Jul 20, 2010)

ABC1 and anyone else, if you are somewhat comfortable with spreadsheets, I built a spreadsheet for the Taco Technical Document TD10 to calculate pressure drop, flow velocity, and pump sizing. It just follows the steps of TD10. It's not just about sizing for gpm, but flow velocity can also be a issue. If I had to run 250' I would definitely foam in trench so I could get more foam around than normal and the TD10 will help you get your head losses to compute the equivalent piping length needed for pump sizing. For those interested in the spreadsheet PM and I'll email.


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## Tony H (Jul 22, 2010)

I have the logstor and while it was a bear to get it in the only issue I have had is a couple of the compression fittings loosened up and started leaking.
I think I would lay pipe in a insulated tube and then foam it just for ease of install. 
I installed the logstore 3 -4 years ago with the help of my 4wheeler and the stuff does not bend or pull easily.


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## ABC1 (Jul 29, 2010)

I have calculated the flow for the runs using Tennman's spreadsheet (a great tool, thanks!) and can just get by using 1-1/4 PEX and a BIG CIRCULATOR. My first choice was dual runs of 1" PEX encapsulated in 3 lb. spray foam but the work and cost gets large. The 1" PEX can be had for $0.50/ft in large quantities but the foam will be about $1400.00. There is also the complication of insulating the entrance in the foundations of the 2 buildings to recieve heat. With this method at approximatly $2000.00 I am still looking at others. I have seen 1-1/4" Watts Triple Wrap foam in 4" Drain Tile for $5.00/Ft. Does anyone have any experience with this type of pipe? It certainly doesn't look as well insulated as the $12/ft pipes but will it work adequatly in the North East?


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## goosegunner (Jul 29, 2010)

ABC1 said:
			
		

> I have calculated the flow for the runs using Tennman's spreadsheet (a great tool, thanks!) and can just get by using 1-1/4 PEX and a BIG CIRCULATOR. My first choice was dual runs of 1" PEX encapsulated in 3 lb. spray foam but the work and cost gets large. The 1" PEX can be had for $0.50/ft in large quantities but the foam will be about $1400.00. There is also the complication of insulating the entrance in the foundations of the 2 buildings to recieve heat. With this method at approximatly $2000.00 I am still looking at others. I have seen 1-1/4" Watts Triple Wrap foam in 4" Drain Tile for $5.00/Ft. Does anyone have any experience with this type of pipe? It certainly doesn't look as well insulated as the $12/ft pipes but will it work adequatly in the North East?



What about using the tile stuff and having it sprayed?

I still think it would be a good method. Foam would increase R value and protect the tile from punctures/ water intrusion.

gg


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## woodsmaster (Jul 29, 2010)

goosegunner said:
			
		

> ABC1 said:
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## Tennman (Jul 31, 2010)

Triple wrap implies wrapping?? The biggest screwup of my FIRST underground system was not appreciating the heat transfer to the dirt when water made it's way to my PEX. ANY insulation process that allows water infiltration will kill efficiency. Don't know anything about the product mentioned but anything "wrapped" will eventually allow water to find it's way in to the PEX. If the expense of really good underground system is a show stopper, do the underground right this season and the boiler next. I basically BLEW the propane expense of one heating season with a bad underground system (cost and time of the redo). In hindsite if I was really funding limited, I'd have installed a really top notch underground and the associated systems, then done the boiler. My 2 cents but look at the sticky and you'll see my costly SECOND installation.


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