# New Vigas 40 on craigslist??



## JimmyJames (Mar 25, 2013)

This price seems pretty cheap. I talked to Mark at AHONA awhile back and the same unit is over 6k thorugh him. Could this be a remanufactured unit or a black market non certified unit??

http://catskills.craigslist.org/app/3678925984.html


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## SIERRADMAX (Mar 25, 2013)

I think that CL add popped up before and it was confirmed to be a black market unit.


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## JimmyJames (Mar 25, 2013)

I figured it must be. That seemed too good to be true.


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## henfruit (Mar 25, 2013)

BLACK MARKET      (black or gray) It is not about the color.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 25, 2013)

Looks more like someone is importing them here without permission. More than it actually being a counterfeit unit. Could be wrong though.

I guess if nothing else it give you an idea of the profit margin if someone else can buy, import and sell a vigas 40 for 4900. And pay for a lawyer if they are actually breaking any laws.


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## JimmyJames (Mar 25, 2013)

So if it is a black market unit that means no warranty no dealer backing ??


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## Floydian (Mar 25, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Looks more like someone is importing them here without permission. More than it actually being a counterfeit unit.


 
I think you are right, Mike. I believe that would be gray market as opposed to black market but I don't know. Still no warranty or dealer support I would think.

Noah


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 25, 2013)

JimmyJames said:


> So if it is a black market unit that means no warranty no dealer backing ??


 
I emailed him to see if he is calling himself a dealer.

Perhaps henfruit can shed some light on this.  Does AHONA have exclusive rights to North America? Is this 'situation' something that you have tried to stop with the manufacturer? Is this why you are looking at importing yet another brand?


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## maple1 (Mar 25, 2013)

How could this situation exist (assuming black/gray market)?

It would assumedly have to be a manufacturer or distributor somewhere in the world not honoring their contracts?

I would hope it's not the manufacturer - not exactly a good or ethical business practice.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 25, 2013)

I see henfruit has been by to 'like' a few posts but declined to answer any direct questions.



maple1 said:


> I would hope it's not the manufacturer - not exactly a good or ethical business practice.


 
I agree, if it's the manufacturer undercutting its own dealers -- not a good long term stable relationship. Would make me hesitant to buy a vigas. (from anyone)

It would be interesting to get a couple pics of what it looks like under the sheet metal though. Be interesting to compare the build quality of the grey market boilers and the one henfruit sells. Anyone got pics of a vigas with the covers off?


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## henfruit (Mar 25, 2013)

The boilers are the same.It is how they were brought into the US that is the differance. They are not or can not be ul listed.There is no warranty or customer service with the sale.When they are gone there will not be any more for sale.


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## Floydian (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm guessing those boilers are 230v/50hz.

Some time back I recall a few folks buying boilers from kolty.com (Poland, I think) at ridiculously low prices, even with shipping, customs, etc. They don't sell Vigas but I wonder if this is not something similar going on-buy em cheap, undercut the importer and make grand or two. 

Not for me...

Noah


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## Norwegian Wood (Mar 25, 2013)

I spoke to this guy a couple months ago.
The units he is selling do not have UL certification.
It seems an entire shipment had botched paperwork & couldn't get the cert.
Thats what he says.
If it true, you can't get a mechanical permit for it from your town, and the insurance company won't know you if anything happens.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 25, 2013)

Here in maine, if you follow the clearances in nfpa 211 for an unlisted stoves you can get a permit, install it to code and insurance companies won't have anything to say. Other states may have different requirements. But it wasn't too long ago that none of the Vigas boilers had a UL cert.

Clearances for an unlisted stove would be 36 front, rear and top and 18" on the sides I believe.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 25, 2013)

It sounds like the authorized vigas dealer is a aware of these units and states they are authentic. If you need UL listing or a warranty, do not purchase from this craigslist ad. If you feel you can make any repairs covered by a warranty and do not need UL listing, it is a no-brainer.

What is fair in the world we live in? Free market economies have what rules? If the authentic dealers want to be competitive, they can be. If they want a monopoly, they can go in that direction also.

As a consumer we are often looking for a best price. If a weld fails and my welder is functional, I will fix it and not wait on warranty requirements. If a controller or fan fails and I can purchase a replacement, I will.

For some consumers the $**** extra to get a warranty is the best choice.


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## henfruit (Mar 25, 2013)

( But it wasn't too long ago that none of the Vigas boilers had a UL cert.)

This statment is not true. Also if a boiler is not tested to UL spec. and not listed it is not legal in Maine.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 25, 2013)

I guess I was getting the ul listing confused with the woodgun. I think they recently got the ul listing. Could be wrong though.



henfruit said:


> This statment is not true. Also if a boiler is not tested to UL spec. and not listed it is not legal in Maine.


Care to post a link to the pertinent law?

Edit

It was the woodgun that recently announced UL listing. I guess all those pre-2012 woodguns were installed illegally?

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/ul-listing-now-available-on-woodguns.81348/#post-1041419


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## henfruit (Mar 25, 2013)

Check with Peter Holmes Senior Inspector State of Maine solid Fuel Board.


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## flyingcow (Mar 25, 2013)

I met the owner of AHONA(importer of Vigas). Spent a few hours talking to him. He's spent a great deal of time and $$$'s to be able to be the importer/dealer of Vigas boilers. I'm quite sure he is responsible that the Vigas UL listed, which cost $$$$'s.  Vigas is a very well built boiler. Mark(AHONA) and his network of dealers are here to stay. I'm going in the same direction Bluetornado has stated. Thats what you pay for when you buy through an authorized dealer. For me, anything advertised on Craigs list, proceed with caution. If it was a barrel stove? It's easy to see if it's worth the money. No moving parts, no pressure vessel, etc. A wood boiler with control panels, etc? It's got to be at scrap prices to make it worth the gamble. Who knows, you might be buying a boiler that was underwater after the hurricane Sandy hit. If a container full of these was deemed a loss, they won't be shipped back to the EU. An enterprising sole could turn some quick cash on a boiler a certified dealer wouldn't handle. Just food for thought.

I kind of rambled there, but I want any future people looking at boilers and coming across this site to understand Vigas(IMO) is a good boiler for the $$$'s, bought through a dealer network.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Armaton (Mar 26, 2013)

Soooo?

Only the UL listed boiler is the best one on the market? Even though they are exactly the same. A piece of paper, or lack there of, doesn't make the thing work any better (or worse)! One has to evaluate their own situation and determine what is best for them! And if they save several thousand $$$, and one of the parts breaks, just order it from the UL vendor. Or does the lack of the UL listing make the parts not interchange?  Strange how the EKO's, as well as these "EXACT" same units, seem to be unacceptable because they didn't once reside close to the Maine/New Hamshire border. Are the EKO's that did reside there still any good?


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Mar 26, 2013)

Obviously This CL poster has broken the CL rules and guidelines by posting as by owner and not dealer? or is he a former dealer? now owner that needs to rid of units he got stuck with because of some quota required from manufacturer/importer of their dealer network.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 26, 2013)

I wonder if they (ahona) will be dropping the vigas now that they import another line?

And I wonder if the new line is UL listed? Didn't see any mention in  the brochure.

http://www.ahona.com/products-viadrus.html


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 26, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Obviously This CL poster has broken the CL rules and guidelines by posting as by owner and not dealer? or is he a former dealer? now owner that needs to rid of units he got stuck with because of some quota required from manufacturer/importer of their dealer network.


 

I get the sense that their is more to the story then Henfruit feels comfortable sharing. Which is understandable considering the circumstances.


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## JP11 (Mar 26, 2013)

I bought the Vigas because and only because of Mark.  I liked him.  He answered my questions for two years running at the Fryeburg Fair.  Treats everyone great and will answer questions all day long.  Doesn't bad mouth anyone else.. but points out what he's selling and why it's better.  He was great when it came to getting me the plans and the schematics and helping to troubleshoot those few huh???  moments along the way.

I can't imagine buying something.. ESPECIALLY something from a foreign land where the directions weren't in English to begin with.. and having to "go it" alone.  Some might value their time and effort that much.  Me.. I wanted to plug it in and get it working. 

To each his own.  I've often found that I'm better of just writing the check and being done with it... vs chasing a few dollars.  Almost always.. the aggravation is around LONG after you remember the great deal you got.

JP


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## maple1 (Mar 26, 2013)

Armaton said:


> Soooo?
> 
> Only the UL listed boiler is the best one on the market? Even though they are exactly the same. A piece of paper, or lack there of, doesn't make the thing work any better (or worse)! One has to evaluate their own situation and determine what is best for them! And if they save several thousand $$$, and one of the parts breaks, just order it from the UL vendor. Or does the lack of the UL listing make the parts not interchange? Strange how the EKO's, as well as these "EXACT" same units, seem to be unacceptable because they didn't once reside close to the Maine/New Hamshire border. Are the EKO's that did reside there still any good?


 
I don't think it's a question of better or worse, or if it's different that a UL listed one. Moreso maybe getting caught without a UL listing when you most need one, say in an insurance claim issue or the like. There may also be an issue too I suppose with not being able to get parts because vendors won't sell to a 'black market' user. You do have some good points though.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Mar 26, 2013)

I am just glad my wood is drying as I evaluate my purchase. So many choices and most when you add all required items come out to the same price.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 26, 2013)

Maybe I'm wrong , but can't anyone import a boiler if they want to go threw the hassle of customs, fees etc.


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## maple1 (Mar 26, 2013)

I imported mine.

Or rather, it was exported to me by the dealer.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 26, 2013)

maple1 said:


> There may also be an issue too I suppose with not being able to get parts because vendors won't sell to a 'black market' user.


 
Well, as I stated before; a dealer can be competitive or can try to monopolize. No rules in a free market economy. Well except for the one about supply and demand, hence the monopoly aspect. Black market, white market? Is the color of the market the determining factor? Who applies the color anyway? From my shopping experience in the gasser boiler industry the retailers here in North America are supporting the monopoly game and in my opinion they can have at it. As for the craigslist poster I have no negative opinion and wish them well. The craigslister is trying to make a buck while the others are trying to squeeze the consumer to the furthest point possible. So who is white or black or gray market?


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Mar 26, 2013)

What is a simple concept for central heating has turned out to be the most frustrating purchasing experience for me.  
Im learning a boat load but having trouble trying to justify this purchase in this market.
If I had a Mcmansion My fuel savings would off set the purchase price and thats a no brainer!


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## henfruit (Mar 26, 2013)

Amatron,It has nothing to with which boiler is better.But being UL listed does make a differance to ins. co and state insp.
NE WOOD,cl poster is not or has never been a dealer.He does not even own the boilers.
Mike, Read the AHONA web site home page.


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## henfruit (Mar 26, 2013)

Blue t. The cl poster does not own the boilers. He can sell them for what he wants to so he can recoup the money that is owed to him from the person that does own them. There is no monoply.Any one can step up to the plate go to europe find a boiler maker who will sell to you.Then shell out all the $ for the load then shell out all the money to have them UL listed then go sell them.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 26, 2013)

henfruit said:


> Blue t. The cl poster does not own the boilers. He can sell them for what he wants to so he can recoup the money that is owed to him from the person that does own them. There is no monoply.Any one can step up to the plate go to europe find a boiler maker who will sell to you.Then shell out all the $ for the load then shell out all the money to have them UL listed then go sell them.


 

How many of these boilers are there?


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## henfruit (Mar 26, 2013)

Call him and ask him.


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## flyingcow (Mar 26, 2013)

And the free market rolls on. This I enjoy.


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## Blue Tornado (Mar 26, 2013)

How many "bonafide" Varm, Effecta, Vigas, EKO, and Biomass dealers are there in North America?


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 26, 2013)

Blue Tornado said:


> How many "bonafide" Varm, Effecta, Vigas, EKO, and Biomass dealers are there in North America?


Call them and ask them.


/edit

That wasn't very helpful -- I don't think there are many other black market dealers out there.

Could be wrong though


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 26, 2013)

henfruit said:


> Call him and ask him.


Well you seem to have a lot of information. I thought you might know how many are floating around.  Thanks for the helpful post.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 26, 2013)

henfruit said:


> There is no monoply.Any one can step up to the plate go to europe find a boiler maker who will sell to you.


 
Doesn't seem too hard... Apparently vigas will sell boilers to anyone with a shipping container and cash


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## JP11 (Mar 26, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Doesn't seem too hard... Apparently vigas will sell boilers to anyone with a shipping container and cash


 
I guess at this point I'd say.... Why do you care so much?

Seems like you really have a "hard on" for anything that henfruit says.. and to some extent the technology on the Vigas.

Maybe you need a hobby.  I've tried to share my experiences with my boiler, and more important to me, the MAN who I bought it from.

JP


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 26, 2013)

JP11 said:


> I guess at this point I'd say.... Why do you care so much?
> 
> Seems like you really have a "hard on" for anything that henfruit says.. and to some extent the technology on the Vigas.
> 
> ...


That was a joke.

I've been an equal opportunity critic of lambda controls. It's just not something I see the need for -- to each their own. I question if the gain in efficiency is worth the increased cost and maintenance. Never tried to question your experience with your boiler. As I have said before it's probably well made. And I hope that it continues to work well for you.

However, the situation with counterfeit or blackmarket or whatever you want to call it is something prospective buyers may be concerned with. I would have understood if Henfruit didn't want to comment further. But when he did I thought asking how many potentially unsupported units are out there was a legitimate question. The blackmarket boilers showing up on CL at the same time a new line of boilers is being introduced may be an unfortunate coincidence. However, when I saw that the first thing that crossed my mind was if AHONA would continue to import Vigas boilers.

There have been other brands of boilers in the past that are now no longer available here, bankrupt or otherwise unsupported. I feel it is something that potential consumers should consider and be aware of. There have been accusations and other exagerations. My personal experience with some dealers that frequent this site has been positive. Others have tried to get me to cancel my order once I ordered a boiler. I have also  been told that reducing the flue size to fit a 6" chimney would be "fine" by a dealer. So I would suggest to anyone considering a boiler to do their homework and no trust everything you read here.

I am sorry if you felt I was attacking or questioning your choice of boilers.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Mar 27, 2013)

mikefrommaine:I have been searching CL for some time for a decent used unit. I have run across many similiar type of posts. There was a Portage and Main unit for sale @ a fair price new talked to local dealer and he talked bad about the persons situation. I did not buy either unit based on that. I have seen many e2300 CB. econoburn units in VT/RI. Any intelligent person can read between the lines and see that a new unit of any type placed on craigslist by owner when they are in fact a dealer is potentially sketchy. Now on the other hand (providing a consumer does not get burned) it does bring brand awareness out there. I would imagine that if an individual purchased any used new equipment and put it in service,then needed parts. I believe that the majority of dealers that I have chatted with would still provide a source of parts and knowledge to build relationship for a future sale. As far as believing what you read here. One should always evaluate what they are told or have read and apply accordingly. Lambda controls now they have been around for years just not on wood boilers. This is treated as new technology for this application. so there will always be those on the bleeding edge and those of us that will sit back and let others beta test before we purchase. Nothing earth shattering there. God bless the freedom of speech!


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Mar 27, 2013)

henfruit said:


> NE WOOD,cl poster is not or has never been a dealer.He does not even own the boilers


 Henfruit: That would make him a dealer!


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## nrcrash (Mar 28, 2013)

I was looking at these boilers on craigslist before I bought mine from AHONA.  When I talked to the guy on craigslist, he didn't think that they had the lambada controls on them but he really didn't know what he was looking for.  For what it is worth, I can't even imagine the horror my install would have been if I had bought the one off of craigslist.  I purchased my Vigas from Henfruit and installed it myself.  I am 100% positive without Henfruit and Mark from AHONA that my install would have taken MUCH longer and would not have ended up working as well as it does.  There is no way that I would have been able to have it work seamlessly with my existing oil boiler system (even though it almost never turns on).  If you are installing the boiler yourself, I think it is a no brainer to buy it from AHONA.  That was just my experience.  I couldn't have been happier with a company or my boiler.


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## henfruit (Mar 29, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Henfruit: That would make him a dealer!


 How would that make him a dealer?


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Mar 29, 2013)

If one markets a piece of real estate they are a realtor. If my mechanic sells my car on consignment that makes him a dealer.


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## Foragefarmer (Mar 29, 2013)

I started lurking and eventually joined this site due to my interest in possibly purchasing a wood boiler. This thread and the threads that talk about what is basically the need to be a scientist to run the things properly is what has decided me against such a system at this time. Maybe the industry will mature to a further extent in the future, but grey markets and poor support from manufacturers doesn't seem to bode well for the industry.


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## Fred61 (Mar 29, 2013)

Foragefarmer said:


> I started lurking and eventually joined this site due to my interest in possibly purchasing a wood boiler. This thread and the threads that talk about what is basically the need to be a scientist to run the things properly is what has decided me against such a system at this time. Maybe the industry will mature to a further extent in the future, but grey markets and poor support from manufacturers doesn't seem to bode well for the industry.


 My sympathy goes out to you. I'll be thinking about the pleasures of gassification that you have missed out on.


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## Foragefarmer (Mar 29, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> My sympathy goes out to you. I'll be thinking about the pleasures of gassification that you have missed out on.


 
One would have hoped for a thoughtful measured response. Hopefully that will be forthcoming from other forum members.

I already heat 24/7 with wood, but was looking for more convenience, even heat, and a cleaner house. At the price points bandied about and in my case the need to either retro fit exterior access to my mech. room basement or more likely build a new structure to house the unit the cost would be high in my case as well. With such a high investment I want piece of mind and I don't think I would be alone in that.


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## nrcrash (Mar 29, 2013)

Foragefarmer said:


> I started lurking and eventually joined this site due to my interest in possibly purchasing a wood boiler. This thread and the threads that talk about what is basically the need to be a scientist to run the things properly is what has decided me against such a system at this time. Maybe the industry will mature to a further extent in the future, but grey markets and poor support from manufacturers doesn't seem to bode well for the industry.



1.  My system is designed to be simple stupid, load and go.  I am far from a scientist.  That being said, if you are installing the system yourself, it is not as simple as sticking a flue pipe into a chimney.  

2.  What industry is "mature"?  If you think ANY industry is "mature", your going to get taken for a ride sooner or later.   I use my own due diligence in every item or service I purchase.  Which is why I went with AHONA.  I have piece of mind when it comes to my boiler.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 29, 2013)

Foragefarmer said:


> One would have hoped for a thoughtful measured response. Hopefully that will be forthcoming from other forum members.
> 
> I already heat 24/7 with wood, but was looking for more convenience, even heat, and a cleaner house. At the price points bandied about and in my case the need to either retro fit exterior access to my mech. room basement or more likely build a new structure to house the unit the cost would be high in my case as well. With such a high investment I want piece of mind and I don't think I would be alone in that.


 

You can make a boiler system as expensive and as complicated as you want. But more or less all the boilers are two steel boxes stacked on top of each other with a ceramic nozzle in between and a fan to blow some air.

When I see some of the numbers people pay to put in an insert or woodstove (5k+) boilers seem like a good investment. And you get even heat throughout the house.

Every industry is going to have its share of shysters, hucksters and upheaval. That's the free market. The gassification boiler market is not immune.


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## henfruit (Mar 29, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> If one markets a piece of real estate they are a realtor. If my mechanic sells my car on consignment that makes him a dealer.


 To be a realtor you need a license.To sell used cars not sure.I would say the CL poster is more like a broker.


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## Fred61 (Mar 29, 2013)

Foragefarmer said:


> One would have hoped for a thoughtful measured response. Hopefully that will be forthcoming from other forum members​


 My statement was a response to your statement that appeared to be your final decision. I didn't realize you wanted someone to talk you out of it.


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## JimmyJames (Mar 29, 2013)

Thanks for all the info guys. A boiler is a very large purchase and saving a 20% on the initial cost is soon lost when you realize you have no warrranty or dealer support.


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## Foragefarmer (Mar 29, 2013)

nrcrash said:


> 1.  My system is designed to be simple stupid, load and go.  I am far from a scientist.  That being said, if you are installing the system yourself, it is not as simple as sticking a flue pipe into a chimney.
> 
> 2.  What industry is "mature"?  If you think ANY industry is "mature", your going to get taken for a ride sooner or later.   I use my own due diligence in every item or service I purchase.  Which is why I went with AHONA.  I have piece of mind when it comes to my boiler.




Fossil is mature in my book. Heat pumps are mature in my book. I can purchase a system and basically not worry that that system will no longer be supported because the importer went belly up for one reason or another. When I was talking mature I was talking about supply chain and so forth not technology. 
Also I came here to do my due diligence and that told me wait a few more years till the industry works through some things . It is for the very fact that I am risk averse that I said not now. Honestly the industry seems far more mature in Europe to our loss.


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## cityboy172 (Jun 14, 2014)

Pretty sure I stumbled across one of these again.


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## Mike Fromme (Jun 15, 2014)

I've seen the ad a  few times on cl too -4950 and they are lambda.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 15, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> If one markets a piece of real estate they are a realtor.



Only if one is a member of the National Association of Realtors.


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## cityboy172 (Jun 15, 2014)

Mike Fromme said:


> I've seen the ad a  few times on cl too -4950 and they are lambda.


It would be tempting if I was closer. Adding 900 miles one way and $500 in fuel sways the equation a bit.


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