# Fruit Tree Advice



## timfromohio (Feb 12, 2012)

So I'm planning on planting a mini-orchard this Spring and torn between dward and semi-dwarf apple trees.  There appear to be pros/cons of each.  Dwarf might produce fruit sooner and the volume of the root structure is not as large so I'll not need to ammend quite as big a volume of soil for each planting site.  They are also all grown on rootstock that seems like it's more susceptible to disease.  Semi-dwarf might be more hardy, but longer until we reap any rewards and much larger amount of soil remediation would be required.  

Are my perceived pros/cons correct?  Any opinions/advice would be appreciated.


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## btuser (Feb 12, 2012)

Every book I read said not to amend too much.  You want the tree's roots to spread, and they will only do that if they're looking for food.   Disease in trees is a never-ending cycle.  Most fruit trees are continually dying of something, and most orchards are continually planting to combat this cycle.


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## gparzych (Feb 12, 2012)

I would stick to semi dwarf for a home orchard, pruned in a central leader style (you should be able to find info on that.  Pros are that the trees will be self supporting (no pole or trellis needed), and due to larger size, will provide more fruit for a lower number of trees. You should be able to find disease resistant rootstocks if you're not too picky about the variety (I'd suggest choosing several different varieties that have different harvest windows).  I'd take a look at heirloom varieties for disease resistance as well...there is a reason these varieties were grown back in the day before modern management practices.  

If you have 1/2way decent soil and are willing to fertilize (do it with compost, its free!) you should be okay.  Your book may be providing the "ideal" environment, but apple trees grow well in the wild in many places, which means they don't need the PERFECT ratios of everything in the soil.  I grow 250 acres of apples, peaches, pears, and stone fruits adn there is a lot of soil variation across all of my orchards.  If I were setting up a homestead orchard, I'd go with semi dwarf in the most disease resistant varieties/rootstocks I could find and just learn to like the taste of those varieties.


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## timfromohio (Feb 12, 2012)

Thanks for the replies so far.

Gparzych - I was planning on ordering from either Miller Nurseries or Stark Brothers.  Both have semi-dwarf trees on M7 rootstock.  Is this OK?  Also, how long would you expect before you'd get fruit from the semi- vs. dwarf?

Again, thanks for all replies.  I readily admit to overanalyzing this kind of stuff ...


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## SolarAndWood (Feb 12, 2012)

How many trees are you planning on planting Tim?  Varieties?  I am doing the same overanalysis and hoping to get the orchard and the hops in this Spring.


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## timfromohio (Feb 12, 2012)

The "mini-orchard" plan is to have four apple trees (PinkLady, Fuji, HoneyCrisp, and one other with Pippin in the title - can't remember), one or two cherry trees (considering the one that has multiple varieties grafted onto it), two pear trees, two peach trees, two plum trees, and perhaps try one of the "hairless" kiwi trees, although this one might become friends with our Meyer Lemon tree that comes inside during the winter.  So around a dozen trees.  

Also, a friend from church suggested if I get bareroot trees I plant them temporarily in large buckets with good soil in order to (1) get a good root ball going and (2) to have the ability to bring them in should we get a really late frost or big storm roll through.


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## gparzych (Feb 12, 2012)

> Gparzych - I was planning on ordering from either Miller Nurseries or Stark Brothers.  Both have semi-dwarf trees on M7 rootstock.  Is this OK?  Also, how long would you expect before you'd get fruit from the semi- vs. dwarf?



M7 is a very common semidwarf rootstock, resistant to fireblight, which you could get in ohio, and it would probably come from wild hosts around the area.  for the first 3-5 years, grow wood, not fruit...you want to get the tree established (and establish the roots) without a lot of energy going toward bearing fruit.  You can FORCE a tree to fruit the second year by tying limbs down past horizontal, but if you get a nice sturdy tree established, you can start getting fruit in 3 or 4 years and set yourself up for 30  years of nice fresh apples.   Your pears will have about the same lifespan, but the cherries, peaches, adn plums will have about half that...you might want to think about that when you're planning your planting.  



> Again, thanks for all replies.  I readily admit to overanalyzing this kind of stuff ...



I'm new around here but as far as I can tell, the main purpose of hearth.com is indulging in overanalysis of all kinds of subjects!


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## btuser (Feb 12, 2012)

I've got a dozen trees in the ground and plans for a dozen more.  I've got one peach tree that grows like a weed (sandy hill in full sun) up against the house and the rest after 1-2 years in the ground/pots are doing a whole lot of nothing.  I wasn't planning on fruit for the first 5 years but its not looking good as far as what I can expect.  The ground is pretty wet.  I'm going to try whatever and whatever sticks will have to do.    Might try some hops, switch to rasberries/blackberries.


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## timfromohio (Feb 12, 2012)

Gparzych - thanks for the advice.  I'll probably go with the semi-dwarf based on this discussion.  Regarding overanalyzing - here (on this forum) we actually discuss the pros/cons of north-south/east-west loading  That's getting down to the details.  You'll fit right in if you don't mind that sort of thing.  Thanks again.

btuser - we have blackberries and red raspberries going already and they are great.  My advice there, at least with the raspberries, is to get a few different varieites that fruit at different times.  I picked out three varieties and one of them has done really well, the other so-so, and the third I replanted with the one that did great.  I think I got my brambles from Norse Farms.


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## fossil (Feb 12, 2012)

gparzych said:
			
		

> ...I'm new around here but as far as I can tell, the main purpose of hearth.com is indulging in overanalysis of all kinds of subjects!



Didn't take you long to figure out what we seem to be all about a significant portion of the time.   :lol:   Welcome to the forums!  Rick


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## eclecticcottage (Feb 12, 2012)

gparzych said:
			
		

> I grow 250 acres of apples, peaches, pears, and stone fruits adn there is a lot of soil variation across all of my orchards.  If I were setting up a homestead orchard, I'd go with semi dwarf in the most disease resistant varieties/rootstocks I could find and just learn to like the taste of those varieties.



Peaches?  Do you happen to grow the "donut" variety?  That's what they're referred to locally, I think they're also called saucer peaches.  Looking for feedback on growing those...

We're looking to plant in some fruit trees this sping also.  Found a local nursery that sells bare root.  I'm still deciding on varieties-I know we're going for bosc pears and probably honeycrisp apples.  I'm not messing with the soil, we have orchards all around here us-if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us!


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## timfromohio (Feb 13, 2012)

eclecticcottage - I'm assuming that wny is western New York.  Whereabouts?  You might be close to Miller Nurseries and could actually go there to pick out your trees in person.


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## eclecticcottage (Feb 13, 2012)

Oooo, sweet!  Canandaigua is about an 1 1/2-2 hour drive from us, but the nursery I found (Turnbull) doing bare root doesn't have the donut peaches.  Looking at the prices I'm glad our soil and water conservation district in our county does a tree and seedling program!  Bare root seedlings, but I can get 50 Serviceberry for $39.


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## benjamin (Feb 13, 2012)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> Also, a friend from church suggested if I get bareroot trees I plant them temporarily in large buckets with good soil in order to (1) get a good root ball going and (2) to have the ability to bring them in should we get a really late frost or big storm roll through.



I'll disagree with that advice on both counts, anytime you move them they get set back.  Plant them as soon as you can after they arrive, if the weather won't allow, then heel them in temporarily until you can plant them right. They don't mind a late frost, except the blossoms of course.

I'd look at this place  http://www.sln.potsdam.ny.us/   Their advice is a little unconventional, but it mirrors my experience.  That is, standard trees are more vigorous, and if dwarf trees aren't given good care (bare ground!) they will languish and not produce any sooner than semi dwarf or even standard trees.


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## timfromohio (Feb 13, 2012)

benjamin - thanks for the input.  Between more reading and this thread I've decided against the dwarf trees.  Due to space considerations I'll go with semi-dwarf.  Regarding heeling them - I read about this also but it's not clear to me if the trees start to generate roots during this process?  Also, my soil is terrible - very high clay content.  I've read that I should (1) plant in soil as close as possible to what the tree roots will encounter and also (2) to heavily ammend the very large planting hole - which route to take?  

thanks again for all of the input!


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## timfromohio (Feb 13, 2012)

ps - the prices of the trees at sln are much better than stark and they have way more information about the tree lineage which I like.  I might be ordering from them instead.  Thanks!


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## benjamin (Feb 13, 2012)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> benjamin - thanks for the input.  Between more reading and this thread I've decided against the dwarf trees.  Due to space considerations I'll go with semi-dwarf.  Regarding heeling them - I read about this also but it's not clear to me if the trees start to generate roots during this process?  Also, my soil is terrible - very high clay content.  I've read that I should (1) plant in soil as close as possible to what the tree roots will encounter and also (2) to heavily ammend the very large planting hole - which route to take?
> 
> thanks again for all of the input!



They shouldn't generate any roots while heeled in, you only do this if the intended planting spot is frozen or under water, and if it's still underwater when the trees are breaking dormancy then you should have picked a different spot.  

Can't help much on the second question, I have a decent clay loam, but some of my trees went where there was a cow path, so excellent fertile soil on top of a terribly compacted layer, those didn't grow as well as the ones planted in more uniform soil, so I'm inclined not to amend. 

Another thing to consider is building a slight mound to plant the tree into if you have flat poorly drained soil, just enough that the root crown stays out of waterlogged soil.


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## gparzych (Feb 14, 2012)

benjamin said:
			
		

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I second the disagreement.  Frost will not hurt newly planted trees for the most part.  They shouldn't have any tender new growth right away and the roots (buried in soil) won't freeze at all.  New plantings bloom late so you should be clear of frost, but if you do get a frost during bloom it doesn't matter b/c you're not looking for a crop anyways.  The way to get a good root system is to plant the tree and let it grow!  I have trees in heavy clay soils...as long as you don't have water saturated soil you should be fine.  Trees like water but they don't like constantly wet feet (some rootstocks will fare better than others).  If there isn't standing water when you dig your hole, its not too wet.


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## eclecticcottage (Feb 14, 2012)

gparzych said:
			
		

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Every bare root we've ever gotten looks basically like a twig with roots.  No new shoots or anything.


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## osagebow (Feb 14, 2012)

While the trees are young, you might consider grafting to make a single tree with a few different varieties on it that can cross pollinate one another.  It's an easy, fun way to increase yield and variety in a limited space  I have a 8 year old single summer rambo tree with branches containing yellow delicious, stayman and granny smith that produced a phenomenal crop of last year. Have a pear with bartlett and a variety I cannot recall that is just starting to produce.  Worked up 2 young tartarian / bing cherries last year and gave one away.  In all, 3 trees will soon = 3 crops.


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## timfromohio (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks for all of the continued advice.  I'll continue my line of questions if I may - deer.  I was planning on putting small sections of fence around each tree I plant (plus one of those wraps to protect them from rodents) when I first set them out to buy me some time while I consider if I fence the whole of my back yard.  I fenced in my in-ground garden area and berry patch with a combo of "rabbit-proof" fence and electric line - I baited the electric lines when I first put them out with peanut butter and know that the deer have gotten a few good zaps in the mouth.  It has proven effective thus far.  Does my plan on localized protection for the trees sound sufficient?  I live in NEOhio - we have an overpopulation of large deer.  I may also add a crossbow to my must-have list and just start eating them.


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## benjamin (Feb 14, 2012)

Deer and rabbits were a big problem for me until I got new neighbors who then got three large unruly intact male dogs that bark randomly throughout the night and take off and run through the neighborhood whenever they can. No more deer or rabbits for me, but I'm not in the woods or even that near to woods so I was a little surprised I had as many deer as I did before the dogs. They wouldn't visit often but if I didn't catch the first nipped leaves and spray repellent, the deer would be back and within the week they would be stripping bark and branches. I used an old mayo jar half full of water and mayo junk in the sun for a few weeks and sprayed on the leaves. It would work for a week or two.

From what I've heard about animal psychology, deterrents (negative reinforcement) have to be consistent and varied, so the electric fence has to be up and hot all the time and it helps if there's some other deterrents thrown in. On the other hand positive reinforcement, a tasty snack of apple leaves, is actually more influential if it is somewhat random, so if a deer gets one taste it will "gamble" on trying again even more than if the leaves are always available. 

And if that's not
over analyzing then I don't know what is.


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## timfromohio (Feb 14, 2012)

I keep the electric fence on 24/7 around garden/berry patch and enjoy nailing the deer with pellets in the rear end whenever possible.  However, if they continue to show up I'll happily transition from sending them away with a welt on the rear to a crossbow bolt allow me to further stock my freezers ....  Disclaimer - I live in a township and it's legal for me to hunt on my own property.


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## lukem (Feb 14, 2012)

My place is filthy with deer.  They completely devour the lower branches on my apple trees.  Apples, leaves, twigs....everything.  If these weren't large mature trees they'd be long gone.  They did the same thing to my blueberries...which I've since fenced off.

I'm getting 6 more fruit trees this spring.  My plan right now is to enclose them in wire using some old horse fence I have laying around.  I'll make a 16" diameter circle and make them about 8' high...bury about a foot underground for stability...mulch around the tree and wire for weed control.  Should be small enough they can't get their snout in there, but will still give plenty of room for air and light to get to the tree. When the tree is big enough I'll remove the wire.

Since I got my dog they aren't as big of a problem, but not enough to trust $100 worth of new fruit trees to them.


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## timfromohio (Feb 14, 2012)

lukem - your plan sounds similar to what I envisioned.  The deer pruned my blueberry bushes for me as well before I added extra electric lines to the fencing around them.  I despise them ...

solarandwood - you did not reply about your orchard plans?  What varieties and how many trees?


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## begreen (Feb 14, 2012)

Deer are nothing more than long legged rats as far as I'm concerned. We have deer fencing now around about 75% of the property and have made peace with them.


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## timfromohio (Feb 14, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Deer are nothing more than long legged rats as far as I'm concerned. We have deer fencing now around about 75% of the property and have made peace with them.




I long for fencing around my whole property!

I've thought of some natural, hedgerow type stuff - maybe osage orange - something that would form an impenetrable barrier and look nice yet have huge thorns.


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## lukem (Feb 14, 2012)

timfromohio said:
			
		

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I wouldn't go that route.  Not only will it not keep them out, it will create a fantastic habitat for them to bed down.  Deer seek out the nastiest, thickest brush they can find to spend their non-feeding hours.  That would be like building a 5 star hotel right next to the all-you-can-eat buffet.  A hedge row is far from impenetrable for even the most inept of deer.


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## timfromohio (Feb 14, 2012)

they do that sort of thing in England - I figured if it would keep sheep in, it would keep deer out (height adjusted accordingly!)


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## begreen (Feb 14, 2012)

I have read about double hedging working to keep out deer. The thought is that they will not jump over something if they are worried about crashing into another obstacle. Folks that have done this say that the hedges don't need to be Olympic height to work.


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## lukem (Feb 14, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I have read about double hedging working to keep out deer. The thought is that they will not jump over something if they are worried about crashing into another obstacle. Folks that have done this say that the hedges don't need to be Olympic height to work.



A double fence will work.  If you space 2 fences 4' high...about 3' apart, then they won't jump it because they can't clear them both and seem spooked about getting stuck in between.

You would have to have a very thick, almost trunk-to-trunk, singe hedge to keep deer out.  There's one place where I hunt that I cannot pass thru, short of crawling on my belly, but the deer don't seem to have much trouble running thru at full speed.  I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it several times.


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## DBoon (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm also going to be ordering a few semi-dwarf apple trees this spring.  Can anyone comment on the disease resistance of some of the heirloom varieties available, such as Chenango Strawberry and Winter Banana?  

Also - timfromohio - any relation to edfromohio?


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## timfromohio (Feb 15, 2012)

For V-day my wife got me the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/Holistic-Orchard-Fruits-Berries-Biological/dp/1933392134/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1

In it the author lists a number of varieties, including heirlooms, and their various disease resistant qualities.

No relation to edfromohio


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## timfromohio (Feb 20, 2012)

Orchard update - after carefully scrutinizing my new book, along with two other books , against various catalogues I've decided to go ahead and order my apple trees from Boyer Nursery and the rest of my fruit trees from Stark Brothers.  I chose Boyers as I can get my apple trees on EMLA 111 rootstock which is a slilghtly dwarfing variety but supposedly the most tolerant of heavy soils (which I have).  Stark offered either M7 (the most common) or B118 - the catalogue didn't indicate which variety was on which rootstock, but I'm guessing based on their zone allowances that the ones tolerant below zone 5 were on the B118 which is supposed to be very cold hearty and or Russian origin.  

So, any comments from you guys on this approach?  

As an aside, the book I referenced in the prevous post is excellent.  

SolarandWood - we've still not heard of your orchard plans ...


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## DBoon (Feb 20, 2012)

Hi timfromohio, thanks for the quick review.  That book was just featured in the latest Growing For Market publication I receive (http://www.growingformarket.com/) and recommended there as well, so I plan on purchasing that very soon.  Thanks for the recommendation.


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## timfromohio (Feb 21, 2012)

DBoon - that Growing for Market looks pretty interesting.  For Christmas my wife got me the Harvey Ussery book reviewed (she's spot on).   It's also a great book if you keep chickens.


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## SolarAndWood (Feb 21, 2012)

timfromohio said:
			
		

> SolarandWood - we've still not heard of your orchard plans ...



I was in your neighborhood on business last week.  Enjoying some of this tonight which caught my interest, blend of Northern Spy and Jonagold.  My wife is thinking Macoun and Northern Spy.  I've been reading the Cornell guides and it looks like my original site plan is going to get scrapped as the lower part of the lot is frost prone, tends to be wet and the deer loiter down there.  Looks like a better spot is going to be up on the side of the hill just below the garden and fenced in.  In addition to a few apple varieties, pear and cherries are part of the plan.


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## DBoon (Feb 25, 2012)

timfromohio, I just received the holistic orchard book and perused through it a bit already.  It looks like just what I was looking for.


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## timfromohio (Feb 26, 2012)

DBoon-awesome, glad you are pleased with the purchase!  Keep us updated on what you decide to plant.  This year I'm going with 8 trees - 2 cherry, 2 pear, 2 plum, 1 peach, 1 nectarine.  After reading through that book I decided only to put in apples if they were on 111 rootstock and at this point in the season everybody is sold out, so the apples must wait.  

Happy planting!


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## SolarAndWood (Feb 26, 2012)

How did you come to your 111 requirement Tim?  Millers isn't too far from me and there seem to be a lot of modern variants in stock developed for the harsher zones and resistance to the problems we generally see?


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## timfromohio (Feb 26, 2012)

The three books I read through as well as two conversations with folks at smaller nurseries convinced me that the 111 (or perhaps 118) would be best for my heavy, clay-rich soil.  Miller stocks mostly M7 for semi-dwarf (at least that's what they told me on the phone).  Stark Bro's had M7 and 118, but couldn't tell me which varieties were on which rootstock.  The nursery guys told me I'd be wasting my time with M7 in heavy soil - it wouldn't anchor well and just wouldn't thrive as compared to the 111.


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## SolarAndWood (Feb 27, 2012)

Gotcha.  I am going to be near Miller's on Friday.  Sounds like I should stop in and pick their brains before I order.


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## timfromohio (Feb 27, 2012)

I would definetly talk with them before buying.  I was pretty frustrated with Stark Bro's.  I figured that the varieties listed as hardy down to zone 3 or 4 were probably grafted onto the 118 rootstock (this is Russian in origin and was bred for cold-hardiness) with all others being on M7.  They said that this was not the case, that all varieties could be on either rootstock, and that you had no idea which you'd be getting.  I find this really hard to believe as M7 is much more dwarfing than M7 is supposed to be, so if you ordered a couple trees of any given variety you might end up with a tree that is 50% to 60% of standard if it was on M7 rootstock and one that was 70% to 80% of standard if it was on 118 rootstock?  Not likely.  This was probably just ignorance of call center people on the phone who were multiple steps removed from actually being remotely close to the trees or ever having had their hands in the dirt ....


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## eclecticcottage (Feb 28, 2012)

Looks like we'll be picking up a few things from Miller's, I do have to figure out where to plant eveything though.  Has anyone dealt with Millers before?  Good stuff?

I just put in my order with the soil and water conservation district for the spring plant sale, will be picking up some American Cranberry and Serviceberry ($10/11 for 10, bare root), I wish they carried more varieties of fruit bearing trees/shrubs.  Can't beat the prices!


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## timfromohio (Feb 28, 2012)

Miller's had a few bad reviews on a review site I found (something like Dave's garden reviews - seemed to be the most prominent compendium of nursery reviews I could find).  However, I'd group them with any of the larger nurseries - the people you talk to on the phone just don't know the details.  If you can go there in person I'm sure it's a whole different ball game.

Best of luck with your orchard!


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## backpack09 (Mar 6, 2012)

I had good luck with the trees I bought from http://www.raintreenursery.com/

Only issue I have is that I bought 3 semi dwarfs and 2 columnar, all different veriaties.  They are growing at completely different rates.  I do not expect that I will get polination this year.

Time will tell.


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## begreen (Mar 7, 2012)

Raintree sells good stock. Many of our fruit trees came from them. Not sure how well adapted to the east coast they would be though. Ask first.


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## firebroad (Mar 7, 2012)

I purchased a Liberty Apple from Stark's about 4 or 5 years ago.  Liberty is resistant to cedar apple rust, and since I have lots of cedars, I figured I would give it a try.  I got a full standard rather than a dwarf, because I wanted shade as well.  They charged extra for a "professionally pruned" specimen, and what I got was a stick with roots.  It did sprout out nice, but I wondered if I should remove some of the bottom ones, as it was so profuse.  I called them up, and they didn't really know, so I did.  I have no idea if that was correct at all.  Last year it blossomed for the first time, but no apples.  Then I discovered ONE little apple growing about August, and left it there until September when I could no longer keep my enthusiasm in check, and picked it.  It was underripe and tart, but intact.  I am hoping for a better harvest this year.

The best tree I bought came from ArborDay Foundation.  It was an Elberta Peach, cost less than $10, and grew beautifully.  I highly recommend that organization, they do a lot of good, and have a surprising inventory of quality nursery stock.


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## begreen (Mar 7, 2012)

We have a Liberty. Tough little tree it is too.  The deer have pruned it until it looks more like a lolipop than a tree. But it keeps on trying. The apples are about half normal size, but the fruit is great with a nice MacIntosh flavor. My wife liked the size for the kids lunches.


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## smokinj (Mar 7, 2012)

I have a 100 seeds in the fridge right now. They want a small fourtune for apple trees. I grew up on a orchard of 1000+ apple trees, guess I will take it real slow.


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## firebroad (Mar 7, 2012)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> I have a 100 seeds in the fridge right now. They want a small fourtune for apple trees. I grew up on a orchard of 1000+ apple trees, guess I will take it real slow.



What variety/ies?  I was under the impression that cloning is is only sure way to get a good strain, and then it must be grafted onto hardy rootstock.


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## smokinj (Mar 7, 2012)

firebroad said:
			
		

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Red Delicious Apple's I not going to get caught up in all that. We or should say dad could never get them back in the 80's they always said there where back order for years. He turn to seeds, so I am trying the same thing. Seem to work out for my him will let you know in about 7 years.


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## begreen (Mar 8, 2012)

Too bad you aren't out here. They are ripping out Red Delicious from the orchards as quick as they can. Galas, Fujis, and Braeburns seem to be replacing them.


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## billb3 (Mar 8, 2012)

Planting advice used to be amend a large hole, but that seems to be changing towards "make the tree adapt".
A root stock that's amenable to local conditions probably helps with that theory as well.


My dad had an small orchard and I've been tasked with maintaining it.
I've pulled a few semi-dwarf peach trees out that just wanted to grow thirty feet tall.
I can't maintain thirty feet trees. They won't prune. I'm not picking off ladders and platforms. I'm spraying with a back pack sprayer. Pruning for fruit as well as maintainability. 
When I yanked out the  stumps I found the ones that insisted on growing tall had two sets of roots. One set from the graft  root stock and another set from the top of the graft. They were either planted too deep  or the ground rose up around them over time and then they grew roots. The roots also swirled around in circles. The planting bags were still around the stumps, too.

So I get new semi-dwarf peach trees. They have the same "bio-degradable" bags . With instructions NOT to remove the bag. To plant as is with soil to the bag knot.
I removed the bags and found the grafts  rather well covered with something that resembles dirt and the roots  shoved in at crazy angles.  I planted them with the graft above ground and fanned the roots out  like one might  if it were bare root. No large hole amending. I do  mulch under them with leaves  and have added some leftover compost in the past. Used to cut the lawn under them, but that's nuts. Whacking one's head and knocking off fruit and breaking branches ? I'll pull a few weeds here and there and have no lawn.  Plus it's a good way to get rid of leaves.  Hopefully a more forest like "natural" setting.


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## smokinj (Mar 8, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Too bad you aren't out here. They are ripping out Red Delicious from the orchards as quick as they can. Galas, Fujis, and Braeburns seem to be replacing them.



We lost a buch one year do to root rott. After that Purdue came out we started mixing sand into the soil. Pretty such to care of the life threating issues. Still lots of maintance and never ending.


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## timfromohio (May 4, 2012)

Update - I planted 8 fruit trees, all from Stark:  2 pear, 2 cherry, 2 plum, 1 peach, 1 nectarine.  What, no apples you say?  I waited too long and was unable to get the varieties I wanted on the rootstock I think will do best in my yard (M111).  I dug (by hand) large holes - 3' in diameter, ~20" to 24" in depth and ammended slilghtly with a mineral/lime mixture I use in the garden along with mycorrhizal fungi around the root area when I actually planted the trees - 90% of what went back into the hole was the native soil.  I then installed tree guards, mulched heavily (not directly around the tree trunk), and installed a section of 5' high by 3' diameter wire fence around each tree.  I'm happy to report all 8 trees have lots of growth emerging!  Next year I'll do the apples.  Important lesson learned - I could have rented (for the day) a tracked, walk-behind, machine with the tree auger on it for $150 and saved some joint pain and cut the time down consideralby.  They even provide the trailer.  I'll go this route next year when the apples go in.  Once the apples go in, the bees will arrive ....

Thanks again for all of the advice.


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