# Asset or Liability?



## wardk (Feb 20, 2013)

I was wondering if anyone has sold their place after installing a big gasser system. Do potential buyers view the system as a liability or an asset? I'm not selling but my wife is starting too look at me sideways to the point I no longer excitedly tell her about all the tweaks and improvements I'm going to do before next heating season. It would be nice to tell her it adds value to the property as well as save on electricity.


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## avc8130 (Feb 20, 2013)

wardk said:


> I was wondering if anyone has sold their place after installing a big gasser system. Do potential buyers view the system as a liability or an asset? I'm not selling but my wife is starting too look at me sideways to the point I no longer excitedly tell her about all the tweaks and improvements I'm going to do before next heating season. It would be nice to tell her it adds value to the property as well as save on electricity.


 
If it makes your wife happy, of course it adds value 

Truthfully, it is probably like a swimming pool.  It only adds value to someone who wants a pool.  Unfortunately, there are probably more people who would like a pool than a wood boiler.

ac


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## Vande (Feb 20, 2013)

I have been wondering the same thing myself.  I am more concerned with gathering the support of the sig other, while you have already accomplished that, before I worry too much about resale, but it is a concern


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## TCaldwell (Feb 20, 2013)

been there done that, Installed garn in 2006, sold house in 2010, new owners wanted no part of it, offered them a small credit and moved it 5 miles away to my new house. it really was a opportunity to set up correctly the second time around, and alot of fun. If they had wanted it, i still would have done it again as wood burning is a lifestyle that i am not yet willing to give up. I think the analogy to a pool is pretty accurate.


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## wardk (Feb 20, 2013)

TCaldwell said:


> been there done that, Installed garn in 2006, sold house in 2010, new owners wanted no part of it, offered them a small credit and moved it 5 miles away to my new house. it really was a opportunity to set up correctly the second time around, and alot of fun. If they had wanted it, i still would have done it again as wood burning is a lifestyle that i am not yet willing to give up. I think the analogy to a pool is pretty accurate.


True enough ,  I think the garn will always have value taking it with you is a great idea if the new owner can't appreciate it. I don't see many used garns for sale.


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## bmblank (Feb 20, 2013)

The simple systems i would think are an asset. I mean, lots of you have a non-wood heating system as well as a non-wood water heater and while you use wood almost exclusively, if you weren't you could turn on the gas and walk away. For more complicated systems, like where wood is the primary, definitely a liability. Even if the new owner is willing to burn wood they would most likely need lessons on how to operate. Especially in situations with storage and/or no water heater.
In the unfortunate outcome of me not being around to sell the house (I died), who will show the buyer what's what? I'd like to think my dad or my brother who have similar setups would be able to keep my Tarm from getting sent to the scrap yard.


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## mikefrommaine (Feb 21, 2013)

I see realtors around here mentioning when houses have wood boilers. They don't seem to know the difference from a piece of junk and high end systems though. Ive tried to make my system look professional and be a 'clean' install so it looks like an asset and not my science fair project.

Actually had someone approach me about buying my house. They were very interested in the boiler. Not sure everyone would have a goal of no oil. But most seem to appreciate the idea of being able to throw in some wood when convenient and be able to seamlessly transition from wood to oil. Of course i have an indoor setup so no risk of freezing. I made my system as simple as possible for the end user knowing I most likely won't be the only owner. Put wood in hit start after you throw in a match, walk away. Oil will shut off and take over when necessary. I've also put diagrams and schematics in the boiler room for future techs.

If I ever sell I'd be happy to take it all with me, I'm sure it's something that could be negotiated with the buyers.


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Feb 21, 2013)

Just show them your fuel bills...


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 21, 2013)

what fuel bills?


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## Bad Wolf (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm going to be looking at that in about 5 years. A lot will depend on the then current price of oil. Its a fairly large house (5 BR 3.5 baths)
I used to burn 1100 gallons/year. At todays prices thats $330/month he wouldn't need to spend on oil.
For the right person who wants a big house but couldn't afford to heat it, it might be a selling point.
I could point to the $50/year oil bill and 3 years worth of wood neatly stacked in back.

As everyone here knows, it's a lifestyle that some folk just wouldn't want to put up with.
Get up, build a fire, get home bring in some wood and build a fire, repeat for 4 months. Even I get tired of it after a while. Then there is scrounging wood all summer.

I figure if they like the house but don't want the boiler I could sell the system for enough to cover a new oil furnace.

I would be interested to see what really happens, or maybe I'm not living in the real world.


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## jebatty (Feb 21, 2013)

I bought my Tarm because I knew my initial install was not final, and that I would be building a new shop and would want to move the Tarm. Because of its small size and ease of moving, as well as reviews and quality of the Tarm, that was my choice.

Seems to me that a wood boiler that would allow removal and relatively easy install of a natural gas/lp or other substitute boiler would be a fair consideration in boiler choice.


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 21, 2013)

Speaking of, I have a client in the situation where they're divorcing, and need to sell their 1 year old Garn 2000.  I'll throw it up on the "for sale" board, and a link to it here in the boiler room.

karl


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## goosegunner (Feb 22, 2013)

I would bet that most buyers would try to down play the value even if they wanted it.

I have always said if I was selling my house and someone made a big deal out of the in ground pool. I would simply say "No problem it will be gone in less than a week.  I put it in, I can make it go away and you will never know it was there."

Same would be true with the wood boiler. If you think it lowers my asking price, fine its gone, you can choose to heat however you would like. It is not a liability for the price of my home if it no longer exists.

I would bet most buyers would say leave it.

gg


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## Fred61 (Feb 22, 2013)

In ground pools make great vegetable gardens when they're filled in


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 22, 2013)

Greg H said:


> As everyone here knows, it's a lifestyle that some folk just wouldn't want to put up with.
> Get up, build a fire, get home bring in some wood and build a fire, repeat for 4 months. Even I get tired of it after a while. Then there is scrounging wood all summer.
> I.


 
Thats why im a part time burner. I LOVE the stove ,but i dont want to be MARRIED to it. Like a mistress its there when you feel the urge or have the time and the wood.(Not that i have a mistress)


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## peakbagger (Feb 22, 2013)

My boiler was free for the taking and my storage is in designed to be broken taken apart if need be so the only loss is lots of my time and the controls.

I dont think standard appraisals (or realtors) deal well with HVAC and things like solar. Most people buy on curb appeal.


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## mikefrommaine (Feb 22, 2013)

I doubt appraisers will put a high value on a gassification system. When and if it comes down to it I'll put a dollar value on the wood boiler and tell them I'll take it or leave it, there choice.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 22, 2013)

No way am i leavin my $3000 Harman behind unless they plunk down at least that amount ,which they wont.


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## Gasifier (Feb 22, 2013)

I will take my Gun with me when we find the right piece of property. We love it in the country where we are, but would like more acreage.


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## mikefrommaine (Feb 22, 2013)

I'd take my gun(s) with me too.


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## Gasifier (Feb 22, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> I'd take my gun(s) with me too.


 
+1


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## velvetfoot (Feb 23, 2013)

I don't have a wood boiler, but I don't think I'd be able to easily remove my wood insert and have a useable fireplace anymore.  It's gotta be tough to remove a wood boiler from a basement!  Never mind the storage tanks! And if you had bulk storage for a pellet boiler in the basement, that'd be more.  This could be an advantage of an outdoor boiler-could be moved easily?


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## Gasifier (Feb 23, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> It's gotta be tough to remove a wood boiler from a basement! Never mind the storage tanks! And if you had bulk storage for a pellet boiler in the basement, that'd be more. This could be an advantage of an outdoor boiler-could be moved easily?


 
Ooohh. C'mon?

What would be so tough about it?  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-in-the-tank-pictures-i.74168/
 https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-in-the-tank-pictures-ii.74169/

Okay, your right. There was a little work involved. But it was fun. And did I ever learn a few things. I say this to my friends and brothers. (Many of whom have more experience than I do.) Everytime you do something you learn something. If you don't ever do anything.............             Obviously, safety is always very important!

The boiler came through the same window and I built a strong ramp to slide it down and we lifted it and moved it around with a tow truck that had two winches on the back with a telescopic boom. I never took any pictures of that.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 23, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I don't have a wood boiler, but I don't think I'd be able to easily remove my wood insert and have a useable fireplace anymore. It's gotta be tough to remove a wood boiler from a basement! Never mind the storage tanks! And if you had bulk storage for a pellet boiler in the basement, that'd be more. This could be an advantage of an outdoor boiler-could be moved easily?


I strapped my wood stove to a dolly and moved it 3 times already and it weighs about 500LBs. Ill be moving it one more time. You have to ask is it cheaper to MOVE your stove or to BUY a new one.Youve got to move the new one into place anyway.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 23, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I strapped my wood stove to a dolly and moved it 3 times already and it weighs about 500LBs. Ill be moving it one more time. You have to ask is it cheaper to MOVE your stove or to BUY a new one.Youve got to move the new one into place anyway.



I see your point, but the boiler and storage move ups it a bunch of notches.
I bet when people generally make the decision to put in a boiler and storage, they're not thinking about taking it out;  they're in a place where they don't figure on moving.

PS:  I wish I had a stove rather than an insert.
PPS:  Don't think I'll be able to convince the wife about a central solution, but still hopeful.  Perhaps establishment of a secret slush fund is in order.


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## wardk (Feb 23, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I strapped my wood stove to a dolly and moved it 3 times already and it weighs about 500LBs. Ill be moving it one more time. You have to ask is it cheaper to MOVE your stove or to BUY a new one.Youve got to move the new one into place anyway.


I'm ging to need a big dolly.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 23, 2013)

I got an oil tank about that size,i want to sell it now as i dont need it anymore and its about 1/4 in thick and in mint condition. I did move it with a backhoe though NOT my Dolly.


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## mikefrommaine (Feb 23, 2013)

I could have my boiler and storage disconnected and loaded on a trailer in less than a day. Probably less.  But I'd put a 10k value on it and let the buyers decide if they want to keep it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 23, 2013)

Iv saved about $25,000 over the last 10 years on alternative heat sources. I plan to continue that where ever i move to.


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## Gasifier (Feb 23, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I see your point, but the boiler and storage move ups it a bunch of notches.
> I bet when people generally make the decision to put in a boiler and storage, they're not thinking about taking it out; they're in a place where they don't figure on moving.
> 
> PS: I wish I had a stove rather than an insert.
> PPS: Don't think I'll be able to convince the wife about a central solution, but still hopeful. Perhaps establishment of a secret slush fund is in order.


 
When you try to cross that bridge, explain to wife that the temperature in every room remains constant at whatever the thermostats are set at. A nice, steady, constant heat. And you can heat your house, garage, and all your hot water for showers, laundry and dishes with wood. Then every year you use that money on something else. Say, a vacation, shopping.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 23, 2013)

Gasifier said:


> When you try to cross that bridge, explain to wife that the temperature in every room remains constant at whatever the thermostats are set at. A nice, steady, constant heat.



She says:  "just turn up the oil heat upstairs".  I hate when she says that.


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## arngnick (Feb 24, 2013)

I just purchased a Vedolux 50 UB and my wife really wanted a rice coal boiler. I agreed with her that  a coal boiler would be a great option but we also have 11 wooded acres and a ton of trees that are on the ground and need to be cleaned up. She even admitted to me that she sometimes enjoys splitting firewood(on her own terms of course) She then brought up the resale value question and I thought the same as most of you(probly not the best system when it comes to resale). I don't think these high end gassers will add much value to a propery. I know whenever I explain my setup to someone they look at me like I have 5 heads and they do not understand. None the less we decided to go with the wod boiler even though we figured the resale value may not be there we will get to take advantage to the abundance of firewood that is waiting to be CSS.


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## JP11 (Feb 24, 2013)

Payback on my boiler.. even if you included the woodsplitter and chainsaw is in the 3 year range.  I built the house to live in, not to sell.

 It's easy enough to tear out if the new owners didn't want to use it.  I only made minor changes to the oil boiler controls.. Flip a couple ball valves to make sure there's no ghost flow to storage from the oil boiler running... and it's the same old oil fired house. A BIG oil fired house.  I don't think HHO is going back to the 90 cent a gallon range anytime soon.

JP


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## arngnick (Feb 24, 2013)

Great point JP! I just figured some numbers and mine should pay back in 5 years. I agree we decided to go with the wood boiler because we have an abundance of wood as would the new homeowners if we deicded to sell and we warmed up to the idea of batch burning and using the flexiblity of storage. we will likely be burning year round also. How often do you fire your boiler in the summer?


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## JP11 (Feb 24, 2013)

Haven't had it insulated up and boxed in yet during summer.

I was going every 2.5 days or so.. but I still had exposed valves and bits of copper letting a lot of heat out.

We'll see.  I'm hoping for 3 to 4 days.. as I go away for a week at a time for work.. so the wife could do just one burn a week while I'm gone.  We're changing habits a bit and doing dishes and laundry a bit more during boiler burns.  I think this would make a bigger difference in summer.  When that DHW zone calls.. it's a big hit to the storage.

JP


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## tmudd (Feb 24, 2013)

Good equipment is good equipment, whether you are talking about machinery, furnaces,boilers ,cars,or any other mechnaical appliances. High quality speaks for itself.  Most people forget about the price on a product that is servicable for over 25 yrs. Anyone who appreciates mechanical things will automatically know the value of a well designed  gassification boiler heating system. Where I live in the river hills  of mid Missouri, everyone is hung up on forced air equipment for the A.C. side of things. heating seem to be secondary. Alot of people actually put in electric furnaces if you can believe that.  Our boiler systems here typically reflect a substantial cost and effort only to  be made more expensive with the forced air airconditioning side of things.  It takes the right person to appreciate what it is your selling. Don't be looking for an appraiser to see value in your property. I have been in the custom home bulilding business for 35 years. Most of the houses we build don't appraise out at what the banks want to loan, so the people have to pony up more down payment or collateral to get what they want.  If you make wise long term investments in your real estate it will  pay off. With the new insulation and energy efficient products available to us,. expensive choices like  vertical well ground source heat pumps make more sense. Even though they have a substantial up front cost, there is a paypack on the horizon, just like substituting oil, or propane for wood.The advantage of the wood systems are that they are more forgiving, just throw on a little more BTU's.We have this process hear called fair market value appraisals -where the properties are compared to similiar properties as near by and as similiar to your own. this allows the appraisers to justify the price.  There is no difference to the appraiser, between real masonry, and stick on fake, no difference between real wood and fake wood. They don't take alot of important mechanical things into consideration at all. Ceiling fans are even noted in an appraiser's report.On the appraisal sheet it is noted under HVAC  woodas one choice, conventional as another. You might well as appraise blenders, and trash compactors. The whole process limits creativity in building and rewards doing it like everyone else.It seems to encourage speculative building in our area.  One appraiser told me I would really have something  "if  the house and property were a little closer to town" - She missed the whole point of living in the country.  That is what I love most about this site. It encourages the best in all of our systems, ablities, materials . Each person can let the economics decide for themselves.

TLM


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## JP11 (Feb 24, 2013)

TLM.. I couldn't agree more!   My appraiser tried to tell me they were doing me a favor by comparing me to smaller, cookie cutter houses next to the golf course.  I just snorted and told them they couldn't GIVE me one of those houses.

Like I said.. built it to live in. Not appraise

JP


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## peakbagger (Feb 25, 2013)

There are appraisers that specialize in energy efficient homes. They are rare and given that most banks have a contract with a local firm to crank out low cost appraisals, the bank is most likely not going to go with a more qualified and more expensive third party appraisal


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## wardk (Feb 25, 2013)

peakbagger said:


> There are appraisers that specialize in energy efficient homes. They are rare and given that most banks have a contract with a local firm to crank out low cost appraisals, the bank is most likely not going to go with a more qualified and more expensive third party appraisal


It may be different in the US but in Canada usually the home buyer pays for the appraisal at the banks request as proof that the home is worth the amount of the mortgage. I was a realtor and the way it worked an appraiser would be hired and told the selling price of the home and surprise that would be the appraised value, all was good the sale would complete.


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## bupalos (Feb 26, 2013)

wardk said:


> It would be nice to tell her it adds value to the property as well as save on electricity.


 
If I was really thinking about "adding value" I would do things that make the system easier to use and more flexible, to expand the number of people that might consider it a serious plus. To me that means big storage and multiple zones on independent programable thermostats. I'd also DOCUMENT the yearly savings versus oil. While there's really no telling whether the best customer for your house will have the right attitude towards it or not, it remains something of a gamble. But I think it's at least you can argue that it is a pretty good gamble, since energy prices and commodity prices and the percentage of the the population that is environmentally aware are all likely to continue rising.


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## Hansson (Feb 27, 2013)

I did a valuation. The broker tell me that the wood system was no good.
Everyone wants ground heat pumps here :-(


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 27, 2013)

Do to the crappy economy of the last 10 years. Many people are learning the value of saving fuel of any sort. There are more people burning wood out of necessity now. People who had inserts in there houses that they bought, but never used, are using them full time now. A lot of them are the so called profesional business man.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 28, 2013)

Hansson said:


> I did a valuation. The broker tell me that the wood system was no good.
> Everyone wants ground heat pumps here :-(


Ground heat pumps are no magic bullet, friend of mine spent a fortune on one only to achieve minimal if any savings. The local contractor/installer encourage people to super insulate before installation so how much of the savings are coming from the ground pump and how much from the insulation upgrade.


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## Hansson (Feb 28, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Ground heat pumps are no magic bullet, friend of mine spent a fortune on one only to achieve minimal if any savings. The local contractor/installer encourage people to super insulate before installation so how much of the savings are coming from the ground pump and how much from the insulation upgrade.


But they start to get really good COP in the pumps now. Check this test
http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http://energimyndigheten.se/sv/Hushall/Testerresultat/Testresultat/Bergvarmepumpar-november-2012/


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## wardk (Feb 28, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Ground heat pumps are no magic bullet, friend of mine spent a fortune on one only to achieve minimal if any savings. The local contractor/installer encourage people to super insulate before installation so how much of the savings are coming from the ground pump and how much from the insulation upgrade.


I looked at geo thermal ,it was a little over 30k est installed but when I looked at the specs. the unit requires a 240v 30amp power source I passed. Like running a clothes dryer 24/7.


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## scooby074 (Feb 28, 2013)

It would take a special buyer to appreciate the work, value and future savings of a wood boiler. Same goes for a high end wood stove. Most people just wont get it. And they wont want to feed it. People are lazy and set in their ways. When people hear wood fired water boiler around here their mind immediately goes to things like Wood Doctors, and the smoke they make.. Mention gasification and their eyes glaze over, "Gasoline", they say, Why would I heat with gasoline, its too expensive!!" 


If (when) I build my new place the wood boiler will be in a separate building I think. And it will be designed with future removal (either for replacement or sale of the home) in mind. Id likely offer it with the home, like say $10000, and if they wont buy, then out it comes. I'd probably build with electric baseboard as backup anyways, so if the purchasers didnt want the boiler, they'd be left with an electric heated home.

Where I think things change is "Solar". Either solar water heating or PV electric generation. Most people are familiar with solar so that would help the value. Plus most of us are tired of the local hydro raising rates and would like to stick it to them in some way On top of that, and most importantly, solar doesnt require near the effort of a wood boiler.

People will also understand the value of and pay for Geothermal heat pumps.Established "push button" technology that people have heard of.

Now, if we were in Europe and had bulk pellet delivery like they do, just like oil delivery where it's no muss - no fuss, then I could see a boiler being a selling point. It comes back to most people being lazy and want nothing to do with the labour involved. They want "push button". Money savings are just a bonus.

Same goes for nicely piled rows of dry CSS wood. 99% of the buyers would see no value in that. Remember, most people just use the stove for ambiance and will burn wood that was fresh cut last weekend 

Of course there are exceptions to these rules and that would be the 1 in 100 buyer you'd need to find to get your investment out.


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## Tdiguy (Mar 1, 2013)

I have been through the wonderful process of re-financing my house recently. There are very few things that affect the "hard" value of a house. Things like # of bedrooms the square footage and the general condition of the house. To a lesser extent i have seen it on 1 estimate where they noted how old the shigles seemed to be but there was no $ figure near that.
Of course the soft value is very subjective. This is where things like alternative heating and new roofs and other similar things come into the picture. Myself i prefer the wood pellet boilers. If i had it to do again i would buy a wood pellet boiler that was meant to be put outside and holds at least 400lbs of pellets in the hopper. Would have made installation much easier.


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