# My quest for inexpensive heat.



## Markus38 (Feb 1, 2014)

Hello All, I wanted to thank everyone here for all the advice I had gotten over the last few years.  I was hoping to help someone else with the story of how I found affordable heat.

My search for affordable heat started when I bought a 2800 sq. ft. home away from natural gas lines. The house has 2x6 walls but cathedral ceilings throughout.  It has a large open foyer that makes it difficult to save money by selectively heating sections of the home.

The first year I kept the house around 65 when occupied and 58 when away.  We burnt 1100 gal or oil and 100 gal propane (stove in FR) that year.  In short, we paid $4500 to be cold and it was on average a warm winter.

The next year I convinced the wife to purchase a Harman XXV.  It replaced the propane stove but the location was not ideal to heat the whole house. It is a long rectangle and the XXV is in the narrow end of the rectangle and it is a bit difficult to get the heat to the far end of the house.  We kept the stove on 24/7 and set it at 70 when occupied and 65 when unoccupied. We burnt 6.5 tons of pellets and 460 gal of oil for a savings of about $2000.  The ROI would be 2 years.  The cons were the heat distribution, filling the stove (2-3 bags a day), cleaning the stove every weekend and the dust (from cleaning, scraping clinkers and filling stove w/ cheap pellets). This was a good solution when comparing the pros and cons. 

That winter I decided to research on replacing my oil boiler. The efficiency after a cleaning was 77%.  (also has a power vent so that eff. is much lower in use).  My wife insisted that the boiler would be low maintenance (filling/cleaning) and I was looking to save money.  I was looking at outdoor wood furnace and oil, propane and pellet boilers. The oil and propane boiler would have minimal cost savings. Wood was going to be too much work and I would have to buy wood. That left the pellet boilers. Out of all the pellet boilers I researched I really liked the Windhager BioWIN series of pellet boilers.  They automatically knocked off the ash from the heat exchangers.  It has an auger system that moves the ash into an ash box which can easily be removed and dumped the ashes every 2-3 ton (the BioWIN tells you when it is time).  This unit is it will modulate its heat output from 100% to 30% meaning it will adjust the size of the fire to your house’s needs this increase the efficiency by decreasing that amount of starts. It also monitors the temperature of the exhaust gas and cuts back to avoid losing heat up the chimney. The unit is robust enough that you can change between different types of pellets without any manual adjustments. 
Our plan was to keep the oil boiler as a backup (we also were worried only having a pellets boiler may scare off potential buyers when we decide to sell the house) and go all out on the pellet boiler system.  We replaced all the piping around the boiler. We also added a Turbomax hot water store. This is reported to increase the efficiency of the boiler by not having to turn on and off as frequently.  I am sure we could get a whole thread on the subject of pro and con but pragmatically it stores the heat so all the zones have instant heat while the boiler is starting up.  It takes about 15-30 minutes, I think, for the boiler to get up to full output, so the instant heat works great.  I also have a 4 ton bulk pellet storage that feeds into the boiler.  For all that are interested I bought this from Vermont Renewable Fuels.  I know when I see quality steel work and they sell a great product and have great customer service.

The boiler is using fewer pellets than I had originally anticipated.  My daily average is 57 lbs for Nov., 85 lbs for Dec. and 100 lbs for Jan. When I was only burning oil, I used 4.2 gal/day in Nov. and Dec. and 5.3 gal/day for Jan. and Feb.  Prices vary but if you assume $250 a ton for pellets and $3.90 a gallon for oil I will be saving somewhere between 6 to 9 dollars a day. So with all of the add-ons in my system the ROI should be less than 7 years. Our house is now comfortable if not on the warm side and I do not have to daily scrape clickers and fill pellets. Cleaning and filling is now reduced to 3 - 4 times a year.  If anyone has a house that you cannot get a pellet stove in a central location and you are looking for something automatic and simple to use you should look into a BioWIN. I cannot say enough good things about this boiler, it is great.


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## Ctcarl (Feb 1, 2014)

Nice set up there


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## hyfire (Feb 1, 2014)

You did the right move, I would love to have a set up like that. What is the base cost on the boiler itself?


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## Mt Bob (Feb 1, 2014)

Very nice,and short payback time.


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 2, 2014)

Nice job, how long can you go without feeding it? A whole week?


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## Markus38 (Feb 2, 2014)

hyfire said:


> You did the right move, I would love to have a set up like that. What is the base cost on the boiler itself?


The base cost of my unit BioWIN 260 was $8,500.  You could purchase the boiler without the automatic pellet feed to save money during the initial investment. Then add the automatic feed when you have the resources. 

Also considering that an oil boiler for my house would run 5K and the best efficiency you can get out of that is 86%.  If you use 1100 gal and the efficiency of your old system is around 75% you would be saving approximately 140 gal of oil or $500.  So the ROI is 10 yrs. for just the boiler


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## Markus38 (Feb 2, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Nice job, how long can you go without feeding it? A whole week?


Thank you!!
The forth picture is a 4 ton bulk storage. I get about 100 days out of that.  The way it looks I will to fill the bulk storage twice a year.


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 2, 2014)

Markus38 said:


> Thank you!!
> The forth picture is a 4 ton bulk storage. I get about 100 days out of that.  The way it looks I will to fill the bulk storage twice a year.



Wow, you could take a month long vaca in January and not have to have a frozen house or someone coming to take care of it. That is awesome.


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 2, 2014)

Markus38 said:


> The base cost of my unit BioWIN 260 was $8,500.  You could purchase the boiler without the automatic pellet feed to save money during the initial investment. Then add the automatic feed when you have the resources.
> 
> Also considering that an oil boiler for my house would run 5K and the best efficiency you can get out of that is 86%.  If you use 1100 gal and the efficiency of your old system is around 75% you would be saving approximately 140 gal of oil or $500.  So the ROI is 10 yrs. for just the boiler



There are 2 efficiencies on boilers. ! combustion, 2nd overall heat transfer. The 2nd that many people don't think of is the most important.


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## PastTense (Feb 2, 2014)

What about Stihly Dan's comment: for how long a period would you be comfortable going on a winter vacation with this setup? Or would you shutoff the water...?


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## Markus38 (Feb 2, 2014)

PastTense said:


> What about Stihly Dan's comment: for how long a period would you be comfortable going on a winter vacation with this setup? Or would you shutoff the water...?


If there was 3-4 tons of pellets in the bulk storage and I just emptied the ashes before I left. It could easily do a month without being worried about it.


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## Markus38 (Feb 2, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> There are 2 efficiencies on boilers. ! combustion, 2nd overall heat transfer. The 2nd that many people don't think of is the most important.


Yes the second is the most important but if I am replacing one oil boiler for another newer one and the over all system stays the same then the difference of the combustion efficiencies will be the only change.  So I can say a system that used 1100 gallons oil with a 75% eff. boiler would use about  960 gallons when I replace that boiler with a 86% eff. boiler for the same heat delivered to the system.  The numbers are not perfect but this is all I have for quick number to know the savings will be small if i stayed with oil.


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 2, 2014)

Markus38 said:


> Yes the second is the most important but if I am replacing one oil boiler for another newer one and the over all system stays the same then the difference of the combustion efficiencies will be the only change.  So I can say a system that used 1100 gallons oil with a 75% eff. boiler would use about  960 gallons when I replace that boiler with a 86% eff. boiler for the same heat delivered to the system.  The numbers are not perfect but this is all I have for quick number to know the savings will be small if i stayed with oil.



By no means am I suggesting to stay with oil. But here is an example of a side job I did.
   Removed an 85% efficient wiel McLane gold boiler. Replaced it with an 85% Budarus boiler, no change in piping at all. The budarus used 2 whole tanks less on oil for the year, went back and hooked up an outdoor reset to it and they saved another tank. They went from 5 1/2 tanks a year down to 2 1/2. No changes to the house either.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 20, 2014)

Great to see that you're also having a positive experience with the Biowin Markus.  What will you be using for DWH in the non heating months?

There is a lot of discussion here about the heating appliance and fuel source itself as the main focus when trying to save money on heating and DHW costs.  While this is certainly a good topic for discussion I'd like to point out that one thing often  gets overlooked when discussing boilers and oil vs everything else is that for your home to be as energy efficient as possible you must look at it as a system rather than just focusing on the boiler.  By this I mean we must consider things like proper and adequate air sealing and insulation, proper and adequate distribution elements (is there enough linear feet of baseboard and is it placed correctly), proper drafting and airflow, are you taking advantage of the solar energy outside of your home, are you using energy efficient appliances, are you doing temperature setbacks when appropriate etc etc etc

In my personal quest for cost effective energy solutions in my home I have learned that the heating appliance itself is just the starting point and that the holistic approach is the best approach as it will save you the most $$$ in the long run.  Let's face it, you can have the most cutting edge heating appliance but if you have crappy, compressed, wind blown R19 fiberglass batts everywhere in your home with no air sealing then you have an incredibly inefficient home where energy use is concerned.


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## chken (Mar 20, 2014)

Markus38 said:


> Thank you!!
> The forth picture is a 4 ton bulk storage. I get about 100 days out of that.  The way it looks I will to fill the bulk storage twice a year.


Thanks for the story of your install. While reading it, I was expecting you to use 10 tons of pellets to replace that 1100 gallons.... okay, I just figured it out. That old oil burner was 75% efficient. the difference is that the Biowin is probably about 85% efficient, so you now use about 8 tons. Is that correct? Do you qualify for a rebate in Mass?


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## velvetfoot (Mar 20, 2014)

Markus, very nice!  I have a BioWin 100/150 on order and might copy your system!  How large is your heat buffer and how is it working?  How about the indirect?  To echo Dana, how are you heating DHW in the summer?  know the recommendation is that you don't need a buffer tank, but I would still like to use my wood insert, and I think a well insulated heat store tank like you have might do the trick.

Also, can you tell me something about what looks like circulator pumps?


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## Markus38 (Mar 20, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Great to see that you're also having a positive experience with the Biowin Markus.  What will you be using for DWH in the non heating months?
> 
> There is a lot of discussion here about the heating appliance and fuel source itself as the main focus when trying to save money on heating and DHW costs.  While this is certainly a good topic for discussion I'd like to point out that one thing often  gets overlooked when discussing boilers and oil vs everything else is that for your home to be as energy efficient as possible you must look at it as a system rather than just focusing on the boiler.  By this I mean we must consider things like proper and adequate air sealing and insulation, proper and adequate distribution elements (is there enough linear feet of baseboard and is it placed correctly), proper drafting and airflow, are you taking advantage of the solar energy outside of your home, are you using energy efficient appliances, are you doing temperature setbacks appropriate etc etc etc
> 
> In my personal quest for cost effective energy solutions in my home I have learned that the heating appliance itself is just the starting point and that the holistic approach is the best approach as it will save you the most $$$ in the long run.  Let's face it, you can have the most cutting edge heating appliance but if you have crappy, compressed, wind blown R19 fiberglass batts everywhere in your home with no air sealing then you have an incredibly inefficient home where energy use is concerned.



Thanks Dana.  I am doing setbacks at 5F but I have an adult and a 1yr old in the house all day so I am not saving too much through this. I did get an energy audit before the install and I have followed their advice.  I agree with the sealing which is an ongoing job and very important.  I also updated all the ceiling fans and keep them on all winter moving the air around.  I found the fans help a lot especially with cathedral ceilings. 
I plan on using my old oil boiler for DWH during the summer.   Since I will not need a lot of heat in the summer the oil may be more efficient for the short blasts of heat.   I also want to fire up the oil once a year to make sure everything is still working rather than waiting for an emergency to find out its dead.


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## Markus38 (Mar 20, 2014)

chken said:


> Thanks for the story of your install. While reading it, I was expecting you to use 10 tons of pellets to replace that 1100 gallons.... okay, I just figured it out. That old oil burner was 75% efficient. the difference is that the Biowin is probably about 85% efficient, so you now use about 8 tons. Is that correct? Do you qualify for a rebate in Mass?


You are right about my ton use.  I have burnt a little over 6 ton with the Biowin so far this winter.  I still use my pellet stove to get the family room very warm in the evening but I only used a little over a ton for that.  I did get a grant for the boiler that helped get the stove this year rather then a few years down the road.  It also help me to decide to go all out on the install.
Windhager has data that states the efficiency of the boiler is 92.9%


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## Markus38 (Mar 20, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Markus, very nice!  I have a BioWin 100/150 on order and might copy your system!  How large is your heat buffer and how is it working?  How about the indirect?  To echo Dana, how are you heating DHW in the summer?  know the recommendation is that you don't need a buffer tank, but I would still like to use my wood insert, and I think a well insulated heat store tank like you have might do the trick.
> 
> Also, can you tell me something about what looks like circulator pumps?


Velvet,
The thermal store is a 120 gallon Turbomax 109 made by Thermo2000.  It works well.  It gives instant heat when the zones ask for it rather than waiting for the pellets boiler to fire.  At first I was not going to get the store but the MA grant required it.  They also calculated the capacity of at least 10 gallons/10,000 Btu/hr (or as space allowed).  That may be a bit more than I need but I can only complain about its cost ($3800). 

The circulators are the modern (they push rather than pull the water like my old ones did) tjey are three speed  1/25 hp. Pex supply sells them http://www.pexsupply.com/Grundfos-59896343-UPS15-58FRC-3-Speed-Rotated-Flanged-Circulator-Pump-1-25-HP-115-volt-4702000-p


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## velvetfoot (Mar 20, 2014)

$3800.gulp. NY don't do no pellet boiler grants.  But, maybe I could save a few bucks since my boiler has a lower output.

Yes, my current circulators pull down to the oil boiler return.  It looks like it'll get a complete makeover.

Thanks for the info.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 20, 2014)

Markus, are using external combustion air?


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## heaterman (Mar 21, 2014)

PastTense said:


> What about Stihly Dan's comment: for how long a period would you be comfortable going on a winter vacation with this setup? Or would you shutoff the water...?



I have to say this is one thing that REALLY impressed me with the Windhager. It is truly engineered, built and controlled to function as a stand alone, primary heat source. That was the number one factor in my search for a pellet boiler to sell in my business.

After operating one in my own house since early last year, I would not give a second thought to connecting it to a bulk storage bin and leaving for a month in the middle of winter. It has been dead reliable.
I have observed no operating failures in any of the units we have installed. The only variable has been the pellets themselves. One user had the firepot shutter stick due to foreign matter in the pellets and I just recently observed clumps of ash in the firepot at 3 different jobsites (none of which had shut off or failed to operate) and found all 3 users were burning fuel from the same supplier. Obviously a pellet content related occurrence.
I'll say again that every one we have installed has proven to be dead reliable.

My "favorite farmer" now has over 20 tons through each of the 2 BioWins we installed for him last September. The only thing done to those boilers since installation is routine cleaning every 800 hours of operation. They simply sit there and run at maximum or near maximum fire all day, every day.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 21, 2014)

heaterman said:


> I have to say this is one thing that REALLY impressed me with the Windhager. It is truly engineered, built and controlled to function as a stand alone, primary heat source. That was the number one factor in my search for a pellet boiler to sell in my business.
> 
> After operating one in my own house since early last year, I would not give a second thought to connecting it to a bulk storage bin and leaving for a month in the middle of winter. It has been dead reliable.
> I have observed no operating failures in any of the units we have installed. The only variable has been the pellets themselves. One user had the firepot shutter stick due to foreign matter in the pellets and I just recently observed clumps of ash in the firepot at 3 different jobsites (none of which had shut off or failed to operate) and found all 3 users were burning fuel from the same supplier. Obviously a pellet content related occurrence.
> ...




When I've cleaned mine so far I've only actually cleaned the burn pot.  I was looking at the owner's manual the other day where it mentioned cleaning the draft fan.  Have you been doing that as part of your routine maintenance?


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## Markus38 (Mar 21, 2014)

Dana B said:


> Markus, are using external combustion air?


I have a 1 sq. ft vent to the outdoors in my boiler room.  The vent is approximately 6 ft from the boiler.


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## DBNH22 (Mar 21, 2014)

Markus38 said:


> I have a 1 sq. ft vent to the outdoors in my boiler room.  The vent is approximately 6 ft from the boiler.




The reason I asked is because I had my basement rim joists spray foamed and it seems to have thrown off the drafting/combustion.  I've had my basement window open several inches for a few days now and the boiler seems to be performing better.  It looks like I may have to pipe in some external air.  It's a small matter but one I need to address before the start of the next heating season.


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## Markus38 (Mar 21, 2014)

Dana B said:


> The reason I asked is because I had my basement rim joists spray foamed and it seems to have thrown off the drafting/combustion.  I've had my basement window open several inches for a few days now and the boiler seems to be performing better.  It looks like I may have to pipe in some external air.  It's a small matter but one I need to address before the start of the next heating season.


Check the install manual page 16. there is a section about combustion air supply.

"The area of the free minimum cross-section must be 2.5 cm2 per kW of the boiler‘s nominal total output."


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## jebatty (Mar 22, 2014)

Several easy ways to provide combustion air. One is the (familiar) cold air trap with an insulated flex duct terminating near the bottom of a barrel or large bucket with an open top. Cold air is trapped and combustion air flows only when there is a draw to create negative pressure.

Mine was more "elegant." I have slider windows in my shop and I wired a linear actuator to one of the sliders so that it opens the window 6" when the draft fan comes on and shuts the window when the draft fan turns off.


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## heaterman (Mar 22, 2014)

Dana B said:


> When I've cleaned mine so far I've only actually cleaned the burn pot.  I was looking at the owner's manual the other day where it mentioned cleaning the draft fan.  Have you been doing that as part of your routine maintenance?



I clean mine only when the display tells me to, which is about every 800 hours of actual burn time. 

Each time I clean it I pop the draft fan off first
Use a soft nylon bristle brush, 2" diameter down the flues to brush the dust off the scrapers mainly.
Brush off the draft "impeller" blades. 
Then go to the firebox and start cleaning that from the top down.

Lift the diverter plate out of the top of the fire box and brush it off. Replace.
Brush down the sides of the firebox.
Vac out the ashes from the bottom.
Take the access plate off the second ash compartment under the flues and vacuum that area.
Brush and vacuum the firepot itself.
Remove the primary air ball and make sure there are no ashes in the air tube underneath it.
Remove the ash "suitcase" and dispose of ashes in there.
Replace everything and I'm done for another 6-8 weeks.

Since the first 2-3 tons, I do not even open the firepot door between cleanings. Just put pellets in it and let it do its thing......which it does exceedingly well.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 22, 2014)

heaterman said:


> Lift the diverter plate out of the top of the fire box and brush it off. Replace.
> Brush down the sides of the firebox.
> Vac out the ashes from the bottom.
> Take the access plate off the second ash compartment under the flues and vacuum that area.
> Brush and vacuum the firepot itself.


May I ask what kind of brushes you use to do this?  It's steel underneath, right?
I've never had a pellet stove but a BioWin is in my future.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 23, 2014)

Markus,

Can you tell me a little more about your experience with the bulk storage, as I am thinking to do this as well?  Did you assemble the bin yourself and did they deliver it?  How did you pick that size?  One delivery for a winter might be ideal, but that takes up a lot of space I guess.  Is it dusty when they make a delivery?  Does it have two pipe connections on the outside?  What kind of piping goes to the bin-metal?  Does the bin have to be ventilated for carbon monoxide, or is it sealed well enough?  Are you thinking about humidity in the off season?  

Sorry for the question blizzard, don't feel you have to answer any of them, but I'm really jazzed about the project.


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## Markus38 (Mar 23, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Markus,
> 
> Can you tell me a little more about your experience with the bulk storage, as I am thinking to do this as well?  Did you assemble the bin yourself and did they deliver it?  How did you pick that size?  One delivery for a winter might be ideal, but that takes up a lot of space I guess.  Is it dusty when they make a delivery?  Does it have two pipe connections on the outside?  What kind of piping goes to the bin-metal?  Does the bin have to be ventilated for carbon monoxide, or is it sealed well enough?  Are you thinking about humidity in the off season?
> 
> Sorry for the question blizzard, don't feel you have to answer any of them, but I'm really jazzed about the project.


Hello Velvetfoot,

Ask as many questions as you want.  I love talking about my boiler!

During the planning phase, I estimated my usage at 10 -12 ton a year and I wanted to fill the storage no more than 3 to 4 times a year. Also the wife nixed the outdoor silo (a single filling per year would be amazing). I bought the 4 ton storage hopper from Vermont Renewable Fuels.  They delivered it but I assembled it.  It is large, bulky and quiet heavy but I still assembled it by myself.  It may be wise to get some help with the assembly.  I used silicone in all the joints to reduce the dust. The hopper itself has a pellet inlet and an air outlet. The bulk delivery guys hook up to these lines, so they are pulling air from your hopper as well as blowing pellets into the hopper.  I do not have them piped to the outside. I fill the hopper through garage door. The filling process is a bit dusty, my hopper is in my garage so the dust and CO is not that much of a bother (too many holes for CO build-up).  There is also a vent with a filter sock to let the hopper breath.  I believe the vent is for not allowing a vacuum during pellet conveying to the boiler not as a CO vent. Also as a safety precaution the Biowin does a burnout before it conveys the pellets, so it will not push combustion gasses from the boiler into the hopper.  I did put a CO detector by the vent as a safety precaution though.  I think the bigger problem is the hopper is confined space, so it will naturally collect heavier gas (CO2, CO). So if you have the urge to go into the hopper to clean out the fines, please make sure you have enough oxygen to breath. The other considerations are you should have a “straight shot” as much as possible from your storage hopper to your boiler.  I mean that the less elbows the better. Also all turns should be wide as possible.  The tighter the turns the harder the blower has to work and the pellets will get beat up.  Also all tubing for pneumatic conveying needs to be special static charge dissipating and properly grounded to avoid a dust explosion.  Also double check with conveyer system, it will have limits as to how far away and how much of a change in elevation you can get the pellets from the boiler.

Sorry about the long answer but I am still jazzed up about the boiler


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## velvetfoot (Mar 23, 2014)

Great answers, thanks!


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## velvetfoot (Mar 25, 2014)

Markus,

Did the place you got the hopper from, Vermont Renewables ?, modify the bottom of the hopper for the vacuum pickup, vs. an auger?  It looks like there's a box on the bottom rather than more cone shaped, but it's hard to tell from VR's web site. Did you have to cut a hole in the metal and how did you protect the hose from the sharp edges and seal it.   Thanks.

VF


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## Markus38 (Mar 26, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Markus,
> 
> Did the place you got the hopper from, Vermont Renewables ?, modify the bottom of the hopper for the vacuum pickup, vs. an auger?  It looks like there's a box on the bottom rather than more cone shaped, but it's hard to tell from VR's web site. Did you have to cut a hole in the metal and how did you protect the hose from the sharp edges and seal it.   Thanks.
> 
> VF


The bottom of my hopper is a box.  I can't recall if they had different options.  The only modifications were 2 holes for the tubing and 4 holes to secure the probe in the center of the box.  I used a hole saw to cut two tubing holes.  I used car door edge U-molding to protect the tubing. I was told that the molding maybe a bit over kill but that did not stop me.  I then used silicone to seal between the tubing and the U-molding.


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## chken (Mar 26, 2014)

Markus38 said:


> Hello Velvetfoot,
> 
> Ask as many questions as you want.  I love talking about my boiler!
> 
> ...


Now you have me thinking about an outdoor silo! I estimate I could use 10 tons and where I would put my fill nozzles is just a tad over 80ft from the road, which means my local bulk delivery may not be able to reach. Plus, what's doable in the Summer, may be 10x harder to reach in Winter, so the silo idea looks interesting as I can place that closer to the road, and fill it once when the weather's nice, and not have to think about it until the next year. My neighbor may not like it, but then he shouldn't have built his house so close to mine! Heck, I wonder if I can adapt it to put a treehouse on top for the kids?


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## PassionForFire&Water (Mar 27, 2014)

These are some pros and cons for a silo used with a pellet boiler for *residential* use: say less then 30 kW or 102,000 BTU/hr.

Cons:
- cost is 2x the cost of an indoor storage room
- no redundancy in suction point. Most silos have 1 probe at the bottom.
- if pellets are stacked higher then 8', they have more tendency to bridge because of the pressure.
- your money is no longer in your pocket when you buy 10 tons at once versus 2 or 3 smaller deliveries.
- right now there is no real incentive to buy bulk pellets. You would think bulk is cheaper, but it's not
- when you have a mild winter, you will sit on a lot of pellets for 1 more summer that can pickup moisture

Pros:
- you save valuable inside space.
- you keep the possible mess outside from the pellet dust during delivery.
- lower pellet delivery fee
- you may be able to take advantage of lower pellet pricing when buying early.

In my opinion, a pellet storage room should be build so you have 2, maximum 3 deliveries per year.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 27, 2014)

In the interest of not taking this great install thread too far awry, and that the subject of pellet storage is worth its own thread,  I'm gonna start one.  Whether anyone replies, well, who knows.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Mar 27, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> In the interest of not taking this great install thread too far awry, and that the subject of pellet storage is worth its own thread,  I'm gonna start one.  Whether anyone replies, well, who knows.



Great idea !


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## velvetfoot (Apr 1, 2014)

Markus, would you have a piping schematic?  I am interested in how you tied in the oil boiler and if it comes on automatically when the pellet boiler shuts down.
Thanks.


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## AK13 (Apr 1, 2014)

OP, I might have missed it, but are you getting bulk pellet deliveries? And if so what company do you use and do you have any other details on their set-up (what size truck they are using, etc)?

Also, I would strongly recommend using pellets for DHW in the summer. Why on earth would you burn expensive oil when you have just invested so much in your pellet system? You have storage so you should be able to run a "full burn" off of your pellet system so you won't see any loss of efficiency by using it for your DHW load. I would still fire up the oil once a year, but why use it all summer long?


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## velvetfoot (Apr 1, 2014)

Speaking for myself, I might get a heat pump wh for the dehumidification.  Maybe the pellets won't go mushy then.


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## DBNH22 (Apr 1, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Speaking for myself, I might get a heat pump wh for the dehumidification.  Maybe the pellets won't go mushy then.




I am looking into the NYLE HPWH myself.  There are a few on this site that own them and have spoken about them.


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## Markus38 (Apr 2, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Markus, would you have a piping schematic?  I am interested in how you tied in the oil boiler and if it comes on automatically when the pellet boiler shuts down.
> Thanks.


My plumber ran the two in parallel before I could say anything.  After I gave it some thought I decided to stick with it in parallel because my oil boiler is old and not properly insulated, I would loose too much heat out the boiler.   When the time comes to upgrade my backup boiler I may put them in series.



AK13 said:


> OP, I might have missed it, but are you getting bulk pellet deliveries? And if so what company do you use and do you have any other details on their set-up (what size truck they are using, etc)?
> 
> Also, I would strongly recommend using pellets for DHW in the summer. Why on earth would you burn expensive oil when you have just invested so much in your pellet system? You have storage so you should be able to run a "full burn" off of your pellet system so you won't see any loss of efficiency by using it for your DHW load. I would still fire up the oil once a year, but why use it all summer long?


Have not totally figured out the summer DHW yet.  I may just may run out my pellets in the hopper then switch to oil.  I am still siting a ton of pellets in the hopper and 500 gallons of oil so I have a few options.  I have been taking weekly pellet usage readings so I will be able to figure how much water is going to cost me with the pellet boiler.  But your point is inconsideration,  an "inefficient" pellet boiler may still beat my old oil boiler.  I will determine what use when I get the spread sheet filled in for this  year.
I am getting bulk deliveries but I am hauling them with my truck  50 bags at a time. The current bulk delivery guys are far from me and the delivery would add too much to  over all cost.  Right now I can deal with the extra work  for the extra savings.  When the bulk guys are closer/ cheaper I would happily switch over


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## velvetfoot (Apr 8, 2014)

How are you getting the pellets into the hopper?  Are you blowing them in?


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## Markus38 (Apr 9, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> How are you getting the pellets into the hopper?  Are you blowing them in?


This solution is a bit dangerous, so please be advised to use static dissipating parts and also properly ground everything.  Also check grounding yearly. That all said.

I used a leaf blower, PVC Pipe and some muffler parts to make a venturi conveyer. Built a little hopper with the crate the biowin came in and put the venturi on the bottom of that hopper.  The venturi slowly trickles the pellets into the path of the leaf blower then gets shot into the steel hopper. I needed to use a rigid pipe to move the pellets because the pellets got stuck in flexible tubing.  I used a 4 inch flexible dust collection hose to connect inlet of the leaf blower to the hopper.  Sucking the air from the hopper helps the blowing of the pellets into the hopper.

It is work in progress I just had an idea and kept on McGyvering it until it worked. I do not have an internal picture of what I made but I found a similar picture. It is hard to explain.  I used a 2” by 18” long muffler for the nozzle and a 3.5”to 2.5”muffler reducer as the diffuser in the picture.  I mounted it all in a PVC Tee. I had to use shims to center everything.  The nozzle has to be in the center of the diffuser and the distance from the nozzle tip to the diffuser needs adjusting to get it right.  All in all it works but it is a bit slow.  I just load in a few bags go do some stuff then return and fill some more bags.  The good thing is I save my back and get the big hopper filled to the top.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 9, 2014)

There was someone who rigged up something similar and posted a video (I forget now who), but no offense, I think it worked better.  he had no complaint about it going slow.


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## Markus38 (Apr 13, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> There was someone who rigged up something similar and posted a video (I forget now who), but no offense, I think it worked better.  he had no complaint about it going slow.


Point taken, I am my own worst critic.  There is a few short comings in the design,  I think I have to go a 2 -2.5 inch pellet pipe to increase the speed of the pellets.  I  also have to get the pellets up 7 ft, this is what really slows everything up.  It works so I haven't fixed it but maybe I will fiddle with it over the summer.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 13, 2014)

I was thinking of this:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/blowing-pellets-with-a-leaf-blower.89327/#post-1163502

The 7 feet could put a damper on things.


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## Markus38 (Apr 13, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I was thinking of this:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/blowing-pellets-with-a-leaf-blower.89327/#post-1163502
> 
> The 7 feet could put a damper on things.


Thanks I saw after you mentioned it.  It got the wheels a turning   I would also like something I could pack away during the summer.


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## AndrewChurchill (Apr 14, 2014)

How much does your pellet blower hold?




Markus38 said:


> This solution is a bit dangerous, so please be advised to use static dissipating parts and also properly ground everything.  Also check grounding yearly. That all said.
> 
> I used a leaf blower, PVC Pipe and some muffler parts to make a venturi conveyer. Built a little hopper with the crate the biowin came in and put the venturi on the bottom of that hopper.  The venturi slowly trickles the pellets into the path of the leaf blower then gets shot into the steel hopper. I needed to use a rigid pipe to move the pellets because the pellets got stuck in flexible tubing.  I used a 4 inch flexible dust collection hose to connect inlet of the leaf blower to the hopper.  Sucking the air from the hopper helps the blowing of the pellets into the hopper.
> 
> It is work in progress I just had an idea and kept on McGyvering it until it worked. I do not have an internal picture of what I made but I found a similar picture. It is hard to explain.  I used a 2” by 18” long muffler for the nozzle and a 3.5”to 2.5”muffler reducer as the diffuser in the picture.  I mounted it all in a PVC Tee. I had to use shims to center everything.  The nozzle has to be in the center of the diffuser and the distance from the nozzle tip to the diffuser needs adjusting to get it right.  All in all it works but it is a bit slow.  I just load in a few bags go do some stuff then return and fill some more bags.  The good thing is I save my back and get the big hopper filled to the top.


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## Markus38 (Apr 14, 2014)

AndrewChurchill said:


> How much does your pellet blower hold?


I am guessing its about 10 to 15 bags


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## AndrewChurchill (Apr 14, 2014)

I've decided to buy all my pellets at once this year which means I have to store them in my shed which is about 150' feet away from the fill pipe. 

This weekend I'm going to build a new rig that will hold 1000 pounds. I'll put it in my trailer, fill it in the shed and then use the tractor to tow it to the fill pipe and blow it in. 

Ill post pics when I'm done.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 15, 2014)

Are you guys just unsatisfied with the price or quality of bulk pellets, or that there's no delivery there, or you feel you have more control over the filling, or what?

When will you guys be filling your bins?  Would they pick up much humidity in there over the summer?

Since I'd be supplementing with wood, the 3 ton bag might suffice, but with pellets only it'd probably be, like, 6 tons or so.  
Are you guys doing a mid-winter fill?  I wonder if the bag could be filled from inside the basement, and have the exterior exhaust hose hooked up?  That way, no outside work.  Maybe more dust?  Hmmmm.


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## AndrewChurchill (Apr 15, 2014)

Bulk delivery in my area is limited and it often takes over a month once I call them before they make the delivery.  Also, they have a two ton minimum delivery.  So if you have a 3 ton bin getting a delivery before I run out of fuel is tricky.  Also, bulk pellets are $30 - $40 more per ton.

My new house has a 5 ton bin but even with that I still have to make a mid winter fill.  There are manual fill ports on the bag bins but you  will not be able to fill your bin much more than half way and it will be dusty doing it that way.  I've never had a humidity issue but both my basements are dry.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 15, 2014)

I think if I do burn more, I could add another 3 ton bag.
My basement is dry, but still needs the dehumidifier to keep the cold pipes from dripping.

If scheduling is bad for you, it might be worse for me, presently.
If nothing else, blowing them in yourself gives you a choice, and maybe will keep bulk prices down, since there's not much competition.

The bag that I'll be using is floppy.  My concept would be to replace the filler on the top with another temporary hose in the basement to the blower and blow out the exhaust outside.  Still much dust?


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## AndrewChurchill (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm considering doing the same thing.  I would run my second hose to the shop vac so that would capture any dust.  My reasoning for doing this is I can only get about 4 tons of pellets into the bin using my leaf blower because back pressure increases as the pellet level rises. 



velvetfoot said:


> I think if I do burn more, I could add another 3 ton bag.
> My basement is dry, but still needs the dehumidifier to keep the cold pipes from dripping.
> 
> If scheduling is bad for you, it might be worse for me, presently.
> ...


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## bdud (Apr 16, 2014)

AndrewChurchill said:


> Bulk delivery in my area is limited and it often takes over a month once I call them before they make the delivery.  Also, they have a two ton minimum delivery.  So if you have a 3 ton bin getting a delivery before I run out of fuel is tricky.  Also, bulk pellets are $30 - $40 more per ton.


I had a bulk delivery by Sandri and they offer a discount for bulk pellets, I think it was $40 a bag, came out to $215 but then delivery charge, at the moment $30 for up to 30 miles. They did deliver to me, only bulk delivery in MA at the time, but the delivery was expensive, $255. I had 3.381 tons delivered so about $290 a ton delivered for New England pellets. I called them about a week before I wanted delivery because I wanted a specific day, this was in December 2013.
A thread for my delivery.. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...his-make-me-a-pellet-pig.119708/#post-1603104


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## AndrewChurchill (Apr 16, 2014)

It was $300 per ton bulk or I could get a similar quality pellet locally for $265.


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## bdud (Apr 16, 2014)

[quote="Markus38, post: 1697794, member: 26871"}
I plan on using my old oil boiler for DWH during the summer.   Since I will not need a lot of heat in the summer the oil may be more efficient for the short blasts of heat.   I also want to fire up the oil once a year to make sure everything is still working rather than waiting for an emergency to find out its dead.[/quote]
You should look at getting a HP for your hot water in the summer. I bought a Nyle Geyser RO and it really worked out well. Only 110v supply required which cools and dehumidifies our basement. This was used as the sole hot water source for a house with 5 adults. It is connected to an 80 gallon water tank which has an electric element which we have never used. Our oil boiler was ripped out when the Windhager was installed.  http://water.nyle.com/residential/


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## bdud (Apr 16, 2014)

AndrewChurchill said:


> It was $300 per ton bulk or I could get a similar quality pellet locally for $265.


That seems expensive, does $300 include delivery?


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## AndrewChurchill (Apr 16, 2014)

Yes.  $300 per ton delivered for Vermont softwoods.  I could get Spruce Point for $265.  Although, they have gone up to $282 now.


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