# RANT: Why can't things be repaired anymore!?



## Badfish740 (Nov 27, 2012)

My mom gave us a nice Cuisinart coffee maker right after we got married-it was a fairly highfalutin model that grinds its own beans, etc...  Well fast forward four years and it's no longer under warranty, the thing gives me problems every morning-in fact this morning I couldn't even get it to work.  It grinds the beans but it won't start the brewing process for some reason, it just sits there and ticks away after the grinder shuts off and for whatever reason it won't go on to the next step.  Smacking it around usually helps, which leads me to believe there is either something loose inside or something stuck that gets dislodged at least temporarily.  Anyway, I dug up the number for customer service to ask where I could send it for service.  It's a $200 coffee maker so, not exactly what I would consider to be a "throwaway item."  The customer service rep flatly told me that they do not repair products.  Even if you bring something in under warranty they just trash it and give you a new one.    That's crap


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## heat seeker (Nov 27, 2012)

Yup, that's a real pet peeve of mine, too. Forget about getting parts for things anymore.


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## Delta-T (Nov 27, 2012)

drop it off at my house later....I'll take it apart and see what going on in there...I give it 50% chance I can Macgyver the thing into doing something, maybe not making coffee, but something. I also have basic Mr. Coffee, new in box I can loan you while I tinker....thats service  ....with a smiley emoticon.


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## Badfish740 (Nov 27, 2012)

Well nothing to lose at this point-time to break out the tools and open the thing up.  The funny part is on the underside it says that the unit should be serviced by "Authorized Personnel Only."  What authorized personnel?


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## seige101 (Nov 27, 2012)

I deem you Authorized. You are now authorized personnel!


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## firefighterjake (Nov 27, 2012)

Delta-T said:


> drop it off at my house later....I'll take it apart and see what going on in there...I give it 50% chance I can Macgyver the thing into doing something, maybe not making coffee, but something. I also have basic Mr. Coffee, new in box I can loan you while I tinker....thats service  ....with a smiley emoticon.


 
HehHeh . . . I can see it now . . . you return a perfectly working and functional parts washer . . . or a washing machine capable of washing a single sock at a time . . . or . . . well you get the idea.


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## Ehouse (Nov 27, 2012)

Delta-T said:


> drop it off at my house later....I'll take it apart and see what going on in there...I give it 50% chance I can Macgyver the thing into doing something, maybe not making coffee, but something. I also have basic Mr. Coffee, new in box I can loan you while I tinker....thats service  ....with a smiley emoticon.


Basic Mr. Coffee.  Yay!!  Neighbor had her HVAC Guy tell her she needed a new $3000+ Built in fridge, 'cause her compressor was shot and not repairable.  Under the upper panel sits a box with all the guts, and handles for removal nonetheless.  Took it to Fridge guy.  $60; bad timer.

Ehouse


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## Ehouse (Nov 27, 2012)

Badfish740 said:


> Well nothing to lose at this point-time to break out the tools and open the thing up. The funny part is on the underside it says that the unit should be serviced by "Authorized Personnel Only." What authorized personnel?


Unplug it first.


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## Butcher (Nov 27, 2012)

I make Juan Valdes grind my coffee personally then I make him clean up his donkeys poo outta my yard. Then his wife cleans my house.


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## greg13 (Nov 27, 2012)

Dive into it, what's the worst that can happen? you can only make it better.


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## Sisu (Nov 28, 2012)

Have you attempted any percussive maintenance?!


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## Badfish740 (Nov 28, 2012)

Sisu said:


> Have you attempted any percussive maintenance?!


 
Yep-I smack it and works-sometimes.  I looked at it last night and apparently Cuisinart does not use screws to hold anything together.  I looked all over the thing and there is not a screw to be found!  Apparently it all snaps together somehow?  I gave it a good whack this morning and it did make coffee-more to come as I learn it


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## granpajohn (Nov 28, 2012)

Badfish740 said:


> Yep-I smack it and works-sometimes. ..


 
Clearly one of the vacuum tubes is loose in its socket.


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## Delta-T (Nov 28, 2012)

firefighterjake said:


> HehHeh . . . I can see it now . . . you return a perfectly working and functional parts washer . . . or a washing machine capable of washing a single sock at a time . . . or . . . well you get the idea.


 
 you know me all too well sir. clearly my reputation precedes me


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## heat seeker (Nov 28, 2012)

It might be sonic welded together. If so, good luck getting it apart. I don't even know if anyone still sonic welds items anymore, but they used to.


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## semipro (Nov 28, 2012)

Badfish740 said:


> Yep-I smack it and works-sometimes. I looked at it last night and apparently Cuisinart does not use screws to hold anything together. I looked all over the thing and there is not a screw to be found! Apparently it all snaps together somehow? I gave it a good whack this morning and it did make coffee-more to come as I learn it


Make sure and check under the rubber pads on the bottom and under applied labels for screws.  A lot of times they're hidden there.


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## festerw (Nov 28, 2012)

I had a Keurig that was leaking water everywhere called and they sent me out a replacement.  Seemed to me a shame to throw out the old one so I pulled it apart and found a leaking solenoid.  Ordered a new one from eBay for $15 and now have a spare.


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## Gark (Nov 28, 2012)

Now that you mention it, I don't see shoe repair places around anymore.


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## heat seeker (Nov 29, 2012)

Gark said:


> Now that you mention it, I don't see shoe repair places around anymore.


I haven't seen one around here in at least 20 years.


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## maverick06 (Dec 1, 2012)

SHOE REPAIR PLACES - if you want one, the few that remain I have seen are near military bases. At least I have seen a few around those. Those are the only guys who will go for shoe repair.

I think a lot of the reason no one fixes anything now is because it so cheap to replace something. What does is the manhour rate for the repair tech? Probably almost $100. So between unboxing and repackaging it, doing the paperwork, he barely has time to pull the screws out before its uneconomical.

Occasionally at the autoshop i take my car to they will actually repair things, not just replace, which is amazing. I really like those guys.


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## heat seeker (Dec 1, 2012)

I can't get just the wheel bearings for my car, I have to buy an entire assembly. On the plus side, it cuts down on the need for really skilled labor to replace, a parts changer can do it. That saves on labor in a shop, but I do my own work, so it doesn't benefit me much.


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## Gasifier (Dec 1, 2012)

Thank you Badfish, very much. That was a good story. And I always wondered how to spell highfalutin!  I like those hoity-toity things you get from peops. Some of them are great presents and others you just don't know if you will actually use it or not. I often get a really nice sweater or shirt and they are really nice. But I might wear it once a year, if that. Most of the time I am in my jeans and a t-shirt so that I can work on something and don't give a rat's ass if I get it dirty or not. Let me know if I spelled hoity-toity right Badfish.


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## mfglickman (Dec 1, 2012)

My parents had that same maker and both times it broke. We gave up on the "grinds and brews" models after that. 

I have a Capresso that I love, after my 12 year old Braun bit the dust by having the 2-hour shutoff on the hot plate stop working - meaning I came home from work to find the entire formica countertop hot to the touch.  So my Capresso has no more hot plate, but a thermal carafe that keeps the coffee hot for 2-3 hours instead. 

Sorry, I know it's annoying. I bought a Maytag washer when my daughter was born. We used cloth diapers so I needed a good one and thought, Maytag, my mom's is 30+ years old...and mine was dead, unrepairable, in 3 years. Gah. 

Good luck with your coffee maker!


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## gmule (Dec 1, 2012)

greg13 said:


> Dive into it, what's the worst that can happen? you can only make it better.


 
My 10 year old had this little sewing machine that quit working. We took it apart and found that the plastic gears were stripped out. But my daughter and I had fun taking it apart and seeing how it worked.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 1, 2012)

granpajohn said:


> Clearly one of the vacuum tubes is loose in its socket.


 
Those 12AT7 's were always in need of friendly persuasion and the 6AT7's always seem to be short lived when used in place of the 12AT7's could never figure that one out .


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 1, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> I haven't seen one around here in at least 20 years.


 
Roy's on Stevens Avenue next to Pat's meat market in Portland, Maine can fix ya right up.


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## heat seeker (Dec 1, 2012)

Can't get there from here...


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## heat seeker (Dec 1, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Those 12AT7 's were always in need of friendly persuasion and the 6AT7's always seem to be short lived when used in place of the 12AT7's could never figure that one out .


 
Replace the 6GH8, and your color burst will work again. Monochrome coffee is soooo boring.


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## greg13 (Dec 1, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> I can't get just the wheel bearings for my car, I have to buy an entire assembly. On the plus side, it cuts down on the need for really skilled labor to replace, a parts changer can do it. That saves on labor in a shop, but I do my own work, so it doesn't benefit me much.


 
They are not like the old cone type bearings anymore. Many manufacturers make them like that. You COULD replace just the bearing, but you need a press & proper press plates to change it. Then you need to find a bearing supplier. Cheaper & faster to replace the whole hub.


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## MasterMech (Dec 3, 2012)

greg13 said:


> They are not like the old cone type bearings anymore. Many manufacturers make them like that. You COULD replace just the bearing, but you need a press & proper press plates to change it. Then you need to find a bearing supplier. Cheaper & faster to replace the whole hub.


 


heat seeker said:


> I can't get just the wheel bearings for my car, I have to buy an entire assembly. On the plus side, it cuts down on the need for really skilled labor to replace, a parts changer can do it. That saves on labor in a shop, but I do my own work, so it doesn't benefit me much.


 
Plus most FWD/AWD cars and 4x4 trucks have the ABS sensors built into the hub. The sensors are often _very_ delicate so replacing them without special tools is a no go. You think not being able to replace the bearings is irritating? How 'bout replacing an otherwise serviceable hub assembly because a $20 sensor chit the bed. 

I just did both hubs, left and right on my Canyon at 110K. Have to pull them to change out brake rotors anyways and I've been having intermittent ABS issues so I but the bullet and replaced the hubs as well. They weren't horrible bearing wise but I didn't trust them for another 50K (which is what I've been getting out of my front brakes, 3rd set since the truck was new in 2005. I'm not complainin' , rear drum brakes went over 100K. )

Also similar to brake calipers. For $50 I can exchange my calipers with rebuilt originals. A little caliper paint and on they go. Not worth my time to rebuild them with a traditional caliper rebuild kit IMO.

One point worth mentioning is even though it may not feel like your repairing vs replacing, most of the time rebuilt hub assemblies are what you're buying so just the bearings and seals have been replaced and a new ABS sensor fitted. They just deny you the fun of doing the rebuild yourself.


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## greg13 (Dec 3, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> Plus most FWD/AWD cars and 4x4 trucks have the ABS sensors built into the hub. The sensors are often _very_ delicate so replacing them without special tools is a no go. You think not being able to replace the bearings is irritating? How 'bout replacing an otherwise serviceable hub assembly because a $20 sensor chit the bed.
> 
> I just did both hubs, left and right on my Canyon at 110K. Have to pull them to change out brake rotors anyways and I've been having intermittent ABS issues so I but the bullet and repalced the hubs as well. They weren't horrible bearing wise but I didn't trust them for another 50K (which is what I've been getting out of my front brakes, 3rd set since the truck was new in 2005. I'm not complainin' , rear drum brakes went over 100K. )
> 
> ...


 
With Ford Explorer/Ranger when you loose the ABS sensor it is usually a result of the bearing being on it's way out so even if you were to replace just the sensor you would soon be doing the bearings. I did the left side of my ranger last spring (bought both sides) and just changed the tires last week, now I can hear the right side starting to go. So I guess I'll be doing that side fairly soon.


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Those 12AT7 's were always in need of friendly persuasion and the 6AT7's always seem to be short lived when used in place of the 12AT7's could never figure that one out .


 
Hahahaa  I wonder how few people still know how to read tube designations and understand the joke there


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## Jags (Dec 4, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Hahahaa I wonder how few people still know how to read tube designations and understand the joke there


 
I still have a full blown tester.


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2012)

EV-7608-0 10 85 P4



I have a 533 in the basement.


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## Jags (Dec 4, 2012)

I don't remember the model.  My father used it to test the tubes for the radios in his old cars.  I haven't played with it for years.


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## Gasifier (Dec 4, 2012)

Okay. What da hell are you guys talkin bout anywho?


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## Jags (Dec 4, 2012)

Gasifier said:


> Okay. What da hell are you guys talkin bout anywho?


Vacuum tubes. They used to be very common in old radios, tv's, Amplifiers (as a matter of fact, they STILL make the best quality amplifiers), etc. They were replaced for the most part by solid state electronics (transistors).

The advantage for amplifiers is that tubes distort in harmonics (a variation of the same note only higher or lower on the scale).  This is a plus when amplifying music.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 4, 2012)

Gasifier said:


> Okay. What da hell are you guys talkin bout anywho?


 
The first number was usually filament voltage and the last number was usually the number of parts inside the tube.

You have to be a geezer to understand good things such as generating your own soft xrays or warming your hands over the finals.


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## Jags (Dec 4, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> T
> 
> You have to be a geezer to understand good things such as generating your own soft xrays or warming your hands over the finals.


 
I'm 44 and Jeremy is younger yet. I'm getting there but still not to geezer status.

Man - it does sound old when I actually type it out.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 4, 2012)

Jags said:


> I'm 44 and Jeremy is younger yet. I'm getting there but still not to geezer status.
> 
> Man - it does sound old when I actually type it out.


 
Well if you believe the old rule you have been a geezer for the last 14+ years.

What's the old rule he asks, never trust anyone over 30, is the reply.


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## Delta-T (Dec 4, 2012)

tubes are pretty much gone except for the amplifier world. I'm 37 (I'm not old, and I'm not a woman, I understand...from behind.....I do object to you automatically treating me as an inferior) and have learned a bit about the tubies because I play the guitar. They appear to be making a resurgence. There's an aweful lot of boutique amp companies about and replacement tube market appears to be fairly stabile (thank you Russia). Current solid state tech does a pretty good job of emulating tubes, and you don't have the signal drop like you did in a lot of older solid state stuff, but you just can't fake the sound of tubes being overdriven. It's like magic.


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## pdf27 (Dec 4, 2012)

Badfish740 said:


> Anyway, I dug up the number for customer service to ask where I could send it for service. It's a $200 coffee maker so, not exactly what I would consider to be a "throwaway item." The customer service rep flatly told me that they do not repair products. Even if you bring something in under warranty they just trash it and give you a new one.   That's crap


$200 coffee maker:
Cost to manufacture will be under $100 once you take out profit, marketing, distribution, retailer profit, etc. - quite possibly under $50.
Repair techs will cost ~$40-50/hour to employ and won't be working 100% of the time. Call it $50/hour.
If they're repairing old appliances they need to keep a lot of parts on the shelf which will over time go obsolete - but must be paid for up front and the space paid for. So assume at least $20 cost for parts, probably double that.

Net result: if it takes more than 10 minutes to fix, it's almost certainly cheaper to give the customer a new one. You will probably also get higher levels of customer satisfaction - if you fix something but it isn't perfect or gets scratched, you get all sorts of back and forth and an unhappy customer. Even putting a value of a few dollars on that makes it almost impossible to justify repairing things.

Oh, and if you're looking for screws bear in mind that it will be rare to have them nowadays where any other fixing method will work - back when I was involved in design for manufacture we used the rule of thumb that each screw adds $2 to the cost of manufacturing something in time, inconvenience, tooling, parts, etc. For something they need to be able to manufacture for $50-100, that's a huge expense if it's held together with 4 screws. Moulding snap-together fittings into plastic has a one-off cost of a few thousand dollars and then the actual fitting together will cost a few cents in human time and breakages. Where the snap together fittings are won't be obvious as they aren't designed to be undone - prying any join lines apart with a screwdriver will normally get them apart without breaking anything though if you're careful about it.


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## Gasifier (Dec 4, 2012)

I wanted to assume you were talking about vacuum tubes, but I always remember the rule that Benny Hill taught on the chalk board. Never assume, you could make ass-u-me. Never will forget that guy.  Some funny stuff. I guess I was wondering about all the testing stuff and the numbers. But I am now catching on. Takes me a little while sometimes.


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> The first number was usually filament voltage and the last number was usually the number of parts inside the tube.
> 
> You have to be a geezer to understand good things such as generating your own soft xrays or warming your hands over the finals.


 
Thats right. The 12AT7 is a twin triode radio tube - I have some in my McIntosh power amp. it has a 12v filament heater (the first number) and 7 elements - 1 heater filament, 2 cathodes, 2 control grids and 2 plates (anodes).  The letters in the middle are a sequence ID to differentiate different tubes in that configuration.

The joke here is that plugging a 6AT7 into a 12AT7 socket would burn it out instantly (driving a 6v heater with 12v).

As an aside, thats the US commercial numbering scheme, there is also a military scheme (just a 4 digit number) and a European scheme that was a bunch of letters followed by a number.  A 12AT7 is also called a 6021 (military) or ECC81 (Europe).



The other set of funcky numbers EV-7608-0 10 85 P4, those are settings to test the 12AT7 on a Hickok vacuum tube tester. The tester has a set of sockets, a test meter and a munch of setting dials, some with letters others with numbers. You had a datasheet with all the tubes listed, you find the tube and it tells you what to turn each dial to to set it up for the tube you want. The "P4" is the test button that you push and then you would get a reading on the meter. The datasheet gave the range of good and worn out readings.

like this:


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## Gasifier (Dec 4, 2012)

Jags said:


> I'm 44 and Jeremy is younger yet. I'm getting there but still not to geezer status.
> 
> Man - it does sound old when I actually type it out.


 
Fourty four! Holy chit Jags, you are older than dirt!


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2012)

Jags said:


> I'm 44 and Jeremy is younger yet. I'm getting there but still not to geezer status.
> 
> Man - it does sound old when I actually type it out.


 


Gasifier said:


> Fourty four! Holy chit Jags, you are older than dirt!


 

Im just a baby. 36.


When I went to engineering school I had some EE fiends that were into this stuff. I got interested, started picking up old amps off tag sales (the MIT flea market is a mecca), ebay etc. Got an old tester and a VTVM (another guess what that is Q), etc.

I taught myself how to work on electronics rebuilding a MC-240. Managed to not electrocute myself on 400VDC


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## Gasifier (Dec 4, 2012)

Hopefully Jags was born after Feb. of this year. Otherwise .........


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2012)

Jags said:


> The advantage for amplifiers is that tubes distort in harmonics (a variation of the same note only higher or lower on the scale). This is a plus when amplifying music.


 
What Ive read is that tube circuits distort primarily in even order harmonics... which is what give them the characteristic "warm sound" and is pleasant to the ear even at relatively high levels like 0.5 - 2%.

Solid state circuitry distorts in odd-order harmonics that add a very harsh, cold feeling to the music that supposedly a trained ear can detect at very low levels like .01 or .001 %


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## Gasifier (Dec 4, 2012)

Before Feb. of this year. Before. Oh boy. A sign of ... Shut up.


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## semipro (Dec 4, 2012)

I recall the tube tester that say just inside the front door of many stores like Eckerd Drugs.  I remember that some tubes had a top connection and the wire on the tube tester that you connected to it.  I'm betting it was high voltage, at least 400 VAC.  Bet that whole setup wouldn't pass the lawyer test today for employees let alone customers.


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## Jags (Dec 4, 2012)

Gasifier said:


> Got an old tester and a VTVM (another guess what that is Q),


 
Vacuum tube Volt meter.

I was born in November

"Old as dirt" - well maybe young dirt.  Being of old mind I can't remember precisely, but aren't you around that??

And Jeremy - you are correct on all accounts with the amplifying distortion. (by the way, I really like old McIntosh amps).


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## Jags (Dec 4, 2012)

Delta-T said:


> but you just can't fake the sound of tubes being overdriven. It's like magic.


 
+ a gajillion.


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## heat seeker (Dec 4, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> You have to be a geezer to understand good things such as generating your own soft xrays or warming your hands over the finals.


 
Oh my, guess I'm a geezer. But I knew that anyway...

I remember building a 5 tube radio in electronics school. We had to use slide rules, no calculators back then. The guy next to me in the lab zapped himself one day, never came back. It wasn't for the faint of heart back then.


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## Gasifier (Dec 4, 2012)

Jags said:


> "Old as dirt" - well maybe young dirt. Being of old mind I can't remember precisely, but aren't you around that??


 
 You were in November.


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## MasterMech (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm younger than all of you. I still love to work on machinery made loooong before my time and can fully apperciate the old tech. Sometimes things change to make them faster and cheaper but not necessarily better.

Funny thing is, I was the only mech at a former job that truly understood breaker point ignition. 

Talked to a new hire recently (age 20) and after graduating from an automotive tech school, he had no idea how a carburetor worked (only that it was something to be avoided) or what points were.


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## nate379 (Dec 5, 2012)

WTH school did he go do?

I went to school for auto tech about a year ago and there was plenty of info about old ignitions, carbs, even early mechanical fuel injection (not very common)



MasterMech said:


> I'm younger than all of you. I still love to work on machinery made loooong before my time and can fully apperciate the old tech. Sometimes things change to make them faster and cheaper but not necessarily better.
> 
> Funny thing is, I was the only mech at a former job that truly understood breaker point ignition.
> 
> Talked to a new hire recently (age 20) and after graduating from an automotive tech school, he had no idea how a carburetor worked (only that it was something to be avoided) or what points were.


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## MasterMech (Dec 5, 2012)

nate379 said:


> WTH school did he go do?
> 
> I went to school for auto tech about a year ago and there was plenty of info about old ignitions, carbs, even early mechanical fuel injection (not very common)


 I have no idea what classes he took (or where) but the blank stare I got when I explained a venturi was pretty telling.  He does what the computer tells him to do.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2012)

MasterMech said:


> I have no idea what classes he took (or where) but the blank stare I got when I explained a venturi was pretty telling. He does what the computer tells him to do.


 
We can't fix your (insert motorized transportation device) today because our computer is down is going to be heard more and more.


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## heat seeker (Dec 5, 2012)

Here's where a "mechanic" did the computer's bidding without knowing what he was doing:

I bought a used car from a local used car dealer that developed a bad catalytic converter. The OBDII codes said so. I took it to the Mazda dealer for warranty repair. The kid who checked it out (had more hardware on/in his head than in his toolbox) said that it needed new plugs, and valve cover gasket, because that's what his computer said to do. The used car dealer obliged, and of course that didn't repair the problem. The car wasn't misfiring, the cat was bad. Second trip to the dealer, the service manager came to me and asked me if I knew the cat was bad. I said yes, that's why I'm here. He said that it would cost me about $800 to replace the cat I informed him that it was a warranty repair, as the car was well within the federal limits. They were going to charge me, then submit a claim to Mazda. Just another bad dealer experience for me. And on top of everything, they charged the used car dealer $80 to diagnose the problem.

Last time I ever went near that Mazda dealer. The car is great, dealer support, not so much.

Most dealers seem to have one mechanic that sort of knows his way around, and a bunch of monkeys.


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## TMonter (Dec 5, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Here's were a "mechanic" did the computer's bidding without knowing what he was doing:
> 
> I bought a used car from a local used car dealer that developed a bad catalytic converter. The OBDII codes said so. I took it to the Mazda dealer for warranty repair. The kid who checked it out (had more hardware on/in his head than in his toolbox) said that it needed new plugs, and valve cover gasket, because that's what his computer said to do. The used car dealer obliged, and of course that didn't repair the problem. The car wasn't misfiring, the cat was bad. Second trip to the dealer, the service manager came to me and asked me if I knew the cat was bad. I said yes, that's why I'm here. He said that it would cost me about $800 to replace the cat I informed him that it was a warranty repair, as the car was well within the federal limits. They were going to charge me, then submit a claim to Mazda. Just another bad dealer experience for me. And on top of everything, they charged the used car dealer $80 to diagnose the problem.
> 
> ...


 
I haven't had many good experiences with dealers, especially with buying cars and how high pressure some of them get. Not to mention how overpriced and arrogant their service departments are. 

When we needed a new transmission on our Honda Odyssey the dealer wanted $4500 and wasn't willing to take pictures of the inside of the new transmission nor discuss what caused the failures in the first place. They were also only going to offer a 20,000 mile warranty for 2 years.

I ended up paying $3100.00 plus I got the pictures, the explanation and some upgrades to the cooling and filtration system from a private transmission shop along with a written 4 year 50,000 mile warranty.


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## MasterMech (Dec 6, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Here's where a "mechanic" did the computer's bidding without knowing what he was doing:
> 
> I bought a used car from a local used car dealer that developed a bad catalytic converter. The OBDII codes said so. I took it to the Mazda dealer for warranty repair. The kid who checked it out (had more hardware on/in his head than in his toolbox) said that it needed new plugs, and valve cover gasket, because that's what his computer said to do. The used car dealer obliged, and of course that didn't repair the problem. The car wasn't misfiring, the cat was bad. Second trip to the dealer, the service manager came to me and asked me if I knew the cat was bad. I said yes, that's why I'm here. He said that it would cost me about $800 to replace the cat I informed him that it was a warranty repair, as the car was well within the federal limits. They were going to charge me, then submit a claim to Mazda. Just another bad dealer experience for me. And on top of everything, they charged the used car dealer $80 to diagnose the problem.
> 
> ...


 

Catalytic converter is one of the most misdiagnosed trouble codes out there. It usually isn't the cat itself but in your case it was.


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## blades (Dec 6, 2012)

Don't even get me started on overpriced substandard part swapping dealer service departments. Got  to love a stealership that charges $35 for shop supplies and misc. plus a $125 diagnostic fee for a warranty recall. No, I did not pay them one red cent.  I did however send them a bill for my research time and diagnostics that led to the proper warranty repair. ( I call this double dipping by the stealership, charging the customer and collecting on the warranty work, very prevalent in the industry)


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## Dune (Dec 6, 2012)

Badfish740 said:


> My mom gave us a nice Cuisinart coffee maker right after we got married-it was a fairly highfalutin model that grinds its own beans, etc... Well fast forward four years and it's no longer under warranty, the thing gives me problems every morning-in fact this morning I couldn't even get it to work. It grinds the beans but it won't start the brewing process for some reason, it just sits there and ticks away after the grinder shuts off and for whatever reason it won't go on to the next step. Smacking it around usually helps, which leads me to believe there is either something loose inside or something stuck that gets dislodged at least temporarily. Anyway, I dug up the number for customer service to ask where I could send it for service. It's a $200 coffee maker so, not exactly what I would consider to be a "throwaway item." The customer service rep flatly told me that they do not repair products. Even if you bring something in under warranty they just trash it and give you a new one.  That's crap


 

China


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

Dune said:


> China


 
Actually lawsuits and regulations are the main reason many things can't be repaired anymore.


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## TradEddie (Dec 6, 2012)

I love fixing things, anything, from engines to squeaky door hinges. It kills me to see anything broken, or worse, half broken, not working properly.  It may look like sh** when I'm done, but it will work.  Sometimes I'll fix something, and then throw it out anyway, just to prove I could do it.  Despite this, I can't complain about how most appliances can't be fixed any more because the simple fact is that most manufactured goods cost just a tiny fraction of what they did 30 years ago, and last longer, so I can have a lot more of those toys.  Those cost reductions aren't just from cheap labor overseas, or increasing cost of domestic labor to repair, its a complete change in philosophy from design through "customer service".  It is frustrating to have to buy a complete new coffee maker, or entire wheel assembly when only a small wire is broken, but when you look at the cost/benefits, even this fixaholic thinks it's worth it.

TE


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

We've got an old Westinghouse I mean to look at eventually, I am pretty sure it needs a tube. It doesn't hum and it lights up, but that's it. No time at the moment. It can be seen hanging out on top of the china cabinet in my dining room in the "two rooms done" thread in the picture forum. DH still won't believe me that it will be able to get in the stations it shows, like Havanah.

Venturi...I know where it is, but I won't mess with carbs. A friend of ours is a carb savant. He can rebuild any we have a need to have rebuilt. I think our old truck needs new floats, DH took a corner faster than normal about a week ago and it was choking for a few minutes. Most of our vehicles are fuel infected now though 

As to repairs, they don't make money if you FIX it. Heck, I've got a 60ish year old (1950's era) fridge-imagine how few fridges people would buy if new ones lasted that long! Actually, my stove is about the same age and my mixer is only a little younger (1960's 4C kitchen Aid). Personally, I prefer vintage to new for a lot of things. Exceptions are the washer and dryer, water heater and the wood stove (clearnance have gotten SO much better!). We use a Corelleware stove top perculator and are collecting cast iron cookware (I just found an early 1900's waffle maker, I can't wait to get that!!). A lot of things were just built better then. Parts might be harder to find, we'll see when that comes up I guess. I've got a "spare" fridge anyway, it's a 1950's Philco (hanging out in the shed at the moment). Lol.


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## jharkin (Dec 6, 2012)

I'd agree with many things we take for granted being a lot cheaper than they used to be. Not so sure about the lasting longer part - for cars, yes. Appliances and consumer electronics - not so much.

To use my old stereos above as an example, I think one part of this is the amount of complex electronics and computerization embedded into everything today. My old McIntosh amplifier was built in 1962, and still runs as well today as the day it was built (with some repair along the way). I'd like to see an iPod that will still turn on in 2062!

The difference is that the circuitry in the Mac is all simple point to point wiring with discreet components that can be diagnosed and repaired by anyone who can use a soldering iron, voltmeter and has access to an electronic supply house. The downside is that its huge, heavy and inefficient... and it performs a single very basic function.

The surround sound receiver hooked up to my TV performs a gajillion different functions, has more processing power than a 1980s mainframe, and uses a fraction of the power and space of the mac. It does it by packing all those functions into one big printed circuit board with a lot of integrated chips. And they release a new model every 6 months or so necessitating a new board design. Replacing an individual component on one of those boards, even if its possible may require tooling not available outside the factory. And over time it probably becomes cost prohibitive to stock replacement motherboards for hundreds of old designs in a parts warehouse. When a fix means replacing the entire boards that's 90% of the cost of hte whole unit anyway, hence the junk and replace mentality.

And trying to duplicate that circuitry with point to point wiring like my old mac? It would probably be as big as my house if it was even possible.

And these electronics are in _everything_ now... even dishwashers and toasters.


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## TradEddie (Dec 6, 2012)

jharkin said:


> I'd agree with many things we take for granted being a lot cheaper than they used to be. Not so sure about the lasting longer part - for cars, yes. Appliances and consumer electronics - not so much.
> 
> To use my old stereos above as an example, I think one part of this is the amount of complex electronics and computerization embedded into everything today. My old McIntosh amplifier was built in 1962, and still runs as well today as the day it was built (with some repair along the way). I'd like to see an iPod that will still turn on in 2062!
> 
> ...


 
To put some of it in perspective, how long did that amp last before it first needed repair, and how much did repairs cost in time and money? What proportion of your paycheck went into buying that amp compared to that surround system? That 1950's fridge may be still running, but it probably needed a bank loan to purchase, and a new one now might pay for itself in a year with the electricity saved.  Some of those old appliances last forever because they were made from materials many times heavier duty than was ever needed, resulting in unnecessarily higher costs to buy and operate.  The problems come when someone mis-calculates how thin or weak to you can go...
I honestly don't think manufacturers cynically design their equipment to beak after set time, but that they look at the time before someone will want to replace it for other reasons, so there is no need to design it to last any longer.


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## Dune (Dec 6, 2012)

TMonter said:


> Actually lawsuits and regulations are the main reason many things can't be repaired anymore.


So economics has nothing to do with it?


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> To put some of it in perspective, how long did that amp last before it first needed repair, and how much did repairs cost in time and money? What proportion of your paycheck went into buying that amp compared to that surround system? That 1950's fridge may be still running, but it probably needed a bank loan to purchase, and a new one now might pay for itself in a year with the electricity saved. Some of those old appliances last forever because they were made from materials many times heavier duty than was ever needed, resulting in unnecessarily higher costs to buy and operate. The problems come when someone mis-calculates how thin or weak to you can go...
> I honestly don't think manufacturers cynically design their equipment to beak after set time, but that they look at the time before someone will want to replace it for other reasons, so there is no need to design it to last any longer.


 
Not to mention the regulations requiring certain things be met on appliances now that make no sense. Some of the water saving techniques on washers and dishwashers that require that you washing something twice now to get it clean or have to use a rinse agent.

For refrigerators they eliminated R-12 which was a very efficient refrigerant and have replaced it with refrigerants that are much less efficient.


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

Dune said:


> So economics has nothing to do with it?


 
Economics is a factor, but regulations and lawsuits are also a big portion of the issue as well.


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## Jags (Dec 6, 2012)

TMonter said:


> For refrigerators they eliminated R-12 which was a very efficient refrigerant and have replaced it with refrigerants that are much less efficient.


 
Yeah - kinda like the good old fashion lead paint.


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## Dune (Dec 6, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> To put some of it in perspective, how long did that amp last before it first needed repair, and how much did repairs cost in time and money? What proportion of your paycheck went into buying that amp compared to that surround system? That 1950's fridge may be still running, but it probably needed a bank loan to purchase, and a new one now might pay for itself in a year with the electricity saved. Some of those old appliances last forever because they were made from materials many times heavier duty than was ever needed, resulting in unnecessarily higher costs to buy and operate. The problems come when someone mis-calculates how thin or weak to you can go...
> I honestly don't think manufacturers cynically design their equipment to beak after set time, but that they look at the time before someone will want to replace it for other reasons, so there is no need to design it to last any longer.


 
You don't believe in planned obsolescence?

http://owni.eu/2011/05/09/planned-obsolescence-how-companies-encourage-hyperconsumption/


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## Jags (Dec 6, 2012)

Dune said:


> You don't believe in planned obsolescence?
> 
> http://owni.eu/2011/05/09/planned-obsolescence-how-companies-encourage-hyperconsumption/


 
Bill Gates does.


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## jharkin (Dec 6, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> To put some of it in perspective, how long did that amp last before it first needed repair, and how much did repairs cost in time and money? What proportion of your paycheck went into buying that amp compared to that surround system? That 1950's fridge may be still running, but it probably needed a bank loan to purchase, and a new one now might pay for itself in a year with the electricity saved. Some of those old appliances last forever because they were made from materials many times heavier duty than was ever needed, resulting in unnecessarily higher costs to buy and operate. The problems come when someone mis-calculates how thin or weak to you can go...
> I honestly don't think manufacturers cynically design their equipment to beak after set time, but that they look at the time before someone will want to replace it for other reasons, so there is no need to design it to last any longer.


 
When I got it and opened it up it looked like it had never been touched - so about 35 years. On average those old amps will go 20+ years or so before the first major repair, which is usually a power supply electrolytic cap drying out. Tube replacement is more regular maintenance like an oil change but even that might be once every 5+ years.

Was it expensive when new? Heck yea. I think it was $300-400 in 1962 money.  Like I said, things have gotten cheaper but not more durable.

I think throwing out and replacing these items every 2-3 years is a much bigger waste then using a little bit more electricity to operate them.


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> That 1950's fridge may be still running, but it probably needed a bank loan to purchase, and a new one now might pay for itself in a year with the electricity saved.


 
Electric savings over what? My 200? Kenmore was an energy star rated model. Our electric bill dropped a little bit after we replaced the Kenmore with it. And I doubt it needed a bank loan any more than the 3-5K fridges I see now (Norge was a high end model so I'm going with the more expensive amounts I see on fridges). We bought it from the original owner's daughter, and it had been a backup basement fridge since the 80's at that point. Even if so, it was meant to last a lot longer than the new ones, so it paid for itself by not needing replacement in a few years. As a bonus (aside from looking WAY cooler than the Kenmore) it is QUIETER. A LOT quieter.

The myth that all old fridges are vampires and all new ones will use so much less that it will pay for itself is a lot like the Don't Burn Pine myth. An urban legend.

Let me tell ya...we have a 1961 Wheel horse Suburban tractor. Runs like a top. Have had it two years and only changed the oil and put belts on it. The PO took it out of storage and replaced the gas and plug (s? I can't remember). Our MUCH newer Craftsman has all sorts of weird problems...sometimes it won't shut off, sometimes it won't start, it pops out of gear, the deck is tweaked because the materials used to build it are shoddy. And getting parts? Good luck. I'm trying to figure out how to get a Gravely to replace it with. Probably a 812 like my grandpa had. That thing was a TANK. Mowed 4-5 acres a few times a week, snow blowed the driveway, rototilled the garden (which was about 1/2 an acre), hauled wood, and whatever else he did with it. It got maintained, and repaired, but it was still running when he passed in 2005 (and someone in the family sold it, or I'd have it). TRY that with a new "garden tractor" and see how long it lasts you.


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## seige101 (Dec 6, 2012)

TradEddie said:


> I can't complain about how most appliances can't be fixed any more because the simple fact is that most manufactured goods cost just a tiny fraction of what they did 30 years ago, and last longer, so I can have a lot more of those toys.


 
I respectfully disagree. Stuff made today doesn't last nearly as long as it used to.

We have the original stove and dryer in the house (30 years old this year) The original washer, hot water heater and fridge lasted approx 14-15 years. The new fridge has been replaced twice in the last 15 years, the hot water heater 3 times and washer twice in 15 years.

Don't get me started on new tvs and such. Our old tube TV is going on 10 years old, the previous one lasted 30 years. I have had friends with newer LCD and Plasma Tvs struggle to get 4-6 years from them.

We are changing from buying quality stuff that with a little repair would last virtually forever to a society where we just replace everything ever 5 years and think that is normal.


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## Jags (Dec 6, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> The myth that all old fridges are vampires and all new ones will use so much less that it will pay for itself is a lot like the Don't Burn Pine myth. An urban legend.


 
This is more true than most people realize.  It is pretty much fact that you will never pay off replacing an operational fridge with a new one with the electrical cost savings.  The new fridge won't live long enough to recoup the purchase price in electrical savings in most cases. (yes, there are exceptions).


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## semipro (Dec 6, 2012)

Jags said:


> This is more true than most people realize. It is pretty much fact that you will never pay off replacing an operational fridge with a new one with the electrical cost savings. The new fridge won't live long enough to recoup the purchase price in electrical savings in most cases. (yes, there are exceptions).


Not disagreeing or agreeing just thought I'd provide this reference to a cost calculator at the EPA.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=refrig.calculator


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

Jags said:


> Yeah - kinda like the good old fashion lead paint.


 
Lead paint was a safety issue, not exactly the same thing. If you knowingly sell a product is unsafe you should be sued and made to pay damages.


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

Jags said:


> This is more true than most people realize. It is pretty much fact that you will never pay off replacing an operational fridge with a new one with the electrical cost savings. The new fridge won't live long enough to recoup the purchase price in electrical savings in most cases. (yes, there are exceptions).


 
I think it started as a way to get people to buy new stuff...like Cash for Clunkers.  My old 1970's pickup gets nearly the same gas mileage as a brand new one.  I'd NEVER get enough out of a new one for it to pay for itself.  And it wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to work on as the old one, nor as cool (I love my truck).  i think after a while it was a convienient excuse to spent too much money on something you didn't need to buy ("but honey, we'll save money on electric if we buy the new one with all the gadgets" that we'll never use anyway).

And I won't even go there on the replacing good, solid original windows with junky replacements.


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

semipro said:


> Not disagreeing or agreeing just thought I'd provide this reference to a cost calculator at the EPA.
> http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=refrig.calculator


 
What that doesn't account for is the lifespan of the new appliance vs the cost. When I was researching fridges, I found so many people complaining about replacing their fridge after only a few years (same for stoves).

Also, this was a photo I took to compare the two (1950's Norge and 200? Kenmore), size wise-you can see they weren't too different in size although the Norge is a little smaller inside:







Our electric usage dropped a few KWH per month with the Norge but we didn't use a killawatt to actually measure usage.


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> I think it started as a way to get people to buy new stuff...like Cash for Clunkers. My old 1970's pickup gets nearly the same gas mileage as a brand new one. I'd NEVER get enough out of a new one for it to pay for itself. And it wouldn't be anywhere near as easy to work on as the old one, nor as cool (I love my truck). i think after a while it was a convienient excuse to spent too much money on something you didn't need to buy ("but honey, we'll save money on electric if we buy the new one with all the gadgets" that we'll never use anyway).
> 
> And I won't even go there on the replacing good, solid original windows with junky replacements.


 
That depends on the original windows. I had really bad aluminum frame windows in my house that I replaced with new Vinyl ones about 4 years ago that made a big difference in comfort in our house. Granted if they had been wood frame windows we would have kept them, but they weren't.


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> What that doesn't account for is the lifespan of the new appliance vs the cost. When I was researching fridges, I found so many people complaining about replacing their fridge after only a few years (same for stoves).


 
Luck is a factor. We've had the same Whirlpool side by side for 10 years now and it still works fine. What is really annoying is that manufacturers now discontinue parts after about 10 years for newer models.


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

Jags said:


> Yeah - kinda like the good old fashion lead paint.


 
Like formaldahyde in OSB and plywood that isn't in hard wood (used in construction of homes, furniture, etc)?  Same problems now, just different products.

Lead based paint wasn't a problem until it wasn't maintained and started flaking.  I am pretty sure I have lead paint on some VERY old doors in our house.  And I just coated them to keep it from flaking.  Then again, I don't plan to lick them anytime soon either...


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 6, 2012)

TMonter said:


> That depends on the original windows. I had really bad aluminum frame windows in my house that I replaced with new Vinyl ones about 4 years ago that made a big different in comfort in our house. Granted if they had been wood frame windows we would have kept them, but they weren't.


 
I guess I should qualify that remark.  Usually it applies to what I would consider old, which isn't what most people do.  I do mean wood frame windows.


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## Jags (Dec 6, 2012)

TMonter said:


> Lead paint was a safety issue, not exactly the same thing. If you knowingly sell a product is unsafe you should be sued and made to pay damages.


 
And R12 was an environmental issue.  Same same.


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## Jags (Dec 6, 2012)

semipro said:


> Not disagreeing or agreeing just thought I'd provide this reference to a cost calculator at the EPA.
> http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=refrig.calculator


 
A killawatt and measuring the use of a 1954 refrig and then comparing it to my energy star side by side came out to be a 17 year payback.  I am not debunking the EPA calc or arguing either, just real world numbers.

In all fairness, the old fridge was smaller than the side by side. Gave it to a brewing buddy.


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## Delta-T (Dec 6, 2012)

iirc lead was replaced with titanium dioxide which, in the end is much easier to use, and has a huge number of applications that lead would not be useful for. It did take an advancement in tech to use Ti, similar to aluminum...it only became economically viable after newer smelting techniques were developed for bauxite. Sometimes science can be soooo cool. lead is also heavy, so not so much fun to carry around.


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## Dune (Dec 6, 2012)

Delta-T said:


> iirc lead was replaced with titanium dioxide which, in the end is much easier to use, and has a huge number of applications that lead would not be useful for. It did take an advancement in tech to use Ti, similar to aluminum...it only became economically viable after newer smelting techniques were developed for bauxite. Sometimes science can be soooo cool. lead is also heavy, so not so much fun to carry around.


 
As I understand it, Ti is used as a base color white, lead was a preservative.


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

Jags said:


> And R12 was an environmental issue. Same same.


 
Actually the way the ban was enacted it wasn't. Additionally there is still some dispute even today at the magnitude of the problem caused by R12. Another question is how much more power is used now (and thus pollution) because we are forced into using inferior refrigerants.


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## jharkin (Dec 6, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Like formaldahyde in OSB and plywood that isn't in hard wood (used in construction of homes, furniture, etc)? Same problems now, just different products.
> 
> Lead based paint wasn't a problem until it wasn't maintained and started flaking. I am pretty sure I have lead paint on some VERY old doors in our house. And I just coated them to keep it from flaking. Then again, I don't plan to lick them anytime soon either...


 
We have lead paint all over the exterior trim and under 10 layers on some inside detail. I keep the paint maintained . my toddlers blood lead test came back at zero.

The rules we have today are to protect us from our own laziness.


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## jharkin (Dec 6, 2012)

Dune said:


> As I understand it, Ti is used as a base color white, lead was a preservative.


 
Not exactly. White lead was the original white pigment for paints... Other than Lyme whitewash. It was so popular because its extremely durable and long lasting, much more so than any pigments used today. An old lead exterior paint job could literally last 50 years. Nothing made today will.


BTW I thought ive read someplace that lead paint is still used for street markings and in industry.


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## TMonter (Dec 6, 2012)

Yes lead is still used in some industrial coatings for longevity but it's usually covered is something else to keep it from flaking. We had to use some at one point and it had to applied under very controlled conditions very similar to asbestos abatement.


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## TradEddie (Dec 6, 2012)

I think in many cases it's just not worthwhile getting something repaired.  Last year our fridge broke (15 years old), calling someone out to look at it would probably have been at least $100, then they'd have to order the part, then come back another day to fix it, and charge for that visit too, so perhaps $250 plus the cost of taking time off work twice for the "8am to 6pm window", and you still have a 15 year old fridge.  That might have been ok in the 60's when the wife was at home all day anyway, but hardly worthwhile now.  I bought the part for $20 online, and put in in myself in about 10 minutes, everything was very well designed to allow repair.  Similarly a few years ago for the washing machine, $15 in parts, easy to replace, but if either had needed a professional we'd have new fridge and washing machine now.

TE


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## MasterMech (Dec 7, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> Let me tell ya...we have a 1961 Wheel horse Suburban tractor. Runs like a top. Have had it two years and only changed the oil and put belts on it. The PO took it out of storage and replaced the gas and plug (s? I can't remember). Our MUCH newer Craftsman has all sorts of weird problems...sometimes it won't shut off, sometimes it won't start, it pops out of gear, the deck is tweaked because the materials used to build it are shoddy. And getting parts? Good luck. I'm trying to figure out how to get a Gravely to replace it with. Probably a 812 like my grandpa had. That thing was a TANK. Mowed 4-5 acres a few times a week, snow blowed the driveway, rototilled the garden (which was about 1/2 an acre), hauled wood, and whatever else he did with it. It got maintained, and repaired, but it was still running when he passed in 2005 (and someone in the family sold it, or I'd have it). TRY that with a new "garden tractor" and see how long it lasts you.


 
As an "expert" in the field and a big fan of the old iron..... I disagree.  There are garden tractors available today that dramatically out-perform their ancestors.  They turn sharper, vibrate less, run cooler, use a LOT less fuel, and are quieter to boot.  Much more comfortable than the oldies too.  Mowing decks are far superior to what was available 30-40 years ago and attachments have gotten _much_ easier, if not more plentiful (can't remember seeing a sickle bar mower for a modern GT, ).

So there are companies building machines that are still designed to last longer than the warranty and IMO are even better than the classic iron they built 50 years ago.  Nope, sorry, Sears/Craftsman isn't one of them. Hint. They're green. And expensive.


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 7, 2012)

And not the ones at HD or Lowes (for the green ones).  I'm more of a red tractor fan myself.

Does Craftsman even sell a garden tractor?  I thought they maxed out at maybe a lawn tractor, but basically riding lawn mowers.  We'd NEVER in a million years have bought one-it came with the Cottage.  I have a low opinion of craftsman and kenmore products anymore, having had both in their newer versions and found them to be a lot different than in the "old days".  Junk.  I'd have found a good older Cub Cadet, Gravely (my first choice, lol), maybe a Ford or Wheel Horse (pre Toro).  Actually, I'd really have liked an 8 or 9N with a belly mower, or even one of the older International Cub Lo Boys with a belly mower.  Then we could have gotten a PTO driven splitter.  My facination with the older tractors is why we bought the Wheel Horse Suburban-although DH does love to drive that one even if it is a nut roaster and loud as heck (ear muffs with a good NRR rating are important when using that mower).


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## Jags (Dec 7, 2012)

eclecticcottage said:


> ctually, I'd really have liked an 8 or 9N with a belly mower, or even one of the older International Cub Lo Boys with a belly mower.


 
You will be disappointed with either of those choices.  S L O W.  The 8 and 9n were rated at 24 hp which was about as honest as the tonnage rating of splitters.  Some of the old cubs were rated as low as 14hp.

A Case vac or vc was also rated at 24hp and would FAR outwork either of those.  Just a heads up.


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## eclecticcottage (Dec 7, 2012)

Maybe...but they look so darn cool.  I always wanted to do a ratrod version of a 8/9n, with flat black paint and old school flames and red rims...do they sell wide whites for tractors?  lol.

We'd never get one anyway, no room to put them.  Gotta stick to a garden tractor or smaller to fit in the shed.


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## onion (Dec 7, 2012)

Gark said:


> Now that you mention it, I don't see shoe repair places around anymore.


 
There's actually 2 down the street from my office but they are only open like 10 hours a week.  I think Red Wing will still resole some of their boots.


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## jharkin (Dec 7, 2012)

Dune said:


> You don't believe in planned obsolescence?
> 
> http://owni.eu/2011/05/09/planned-obsolescence-how-companies-encourage-hyperconsumption/


 
Just got around to reading this. Soooooooo true.  Everyone should read.


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## Ehouse (Dec 7, 2012)

If you buy good boots and shoes with stitched assembly, (like Red Wings), you should be able to find a repair shop if you dig.  Modern glue assembly doesn't lend itself to such consumer activism.

I'd buy a pair of used Red wings or Chippewa's from the Goodwill before spending $200+ for new junk.

Ehouse


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## Ehouse (Dec 7, 2012)

Jags said:


> You will be disappointed with either of those choices. S L O W. The 8 and 9n were rated at 24 hp which was about as honest as the tonnage rating of splitters. Some of the old cubs were rated as low as 14hp.
> 
> A Case vac or vc was also rated at 24hp and would FAR outwork either of those. Just a heads up.


 

I sold my 9n for parts recently, but I got a lot of work out of it.  Many prefer the 9 because it has a nice slow reverse, great for backing boats, trailers etc..  You can even log with it.  I've a booklet from cooperative extension on how to log with a small tractor ( a lost art, like cable yarding, at least around these parts).  I rigged a short boom with a set of timber tongs off the 3 point to lower onto the log; didn't even have to get off to hook up.  I think weight and gearing have more to do with it than horse power.  I used to mow under my hedgerows with a 7' sickle bar through some pretty tough stuff.  Grade the driveway (900').  Try that with your new 24 HP cub cadet.  Still available around here for +- $2,000.  Year of manufacture was 1941.  With a good overhaul it'll last another 70 years.

I really like Case though, and I use a 310C crawler in the woods now, wish I had loot to give her an overhaul.

Ehouse


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## homebrewz (Dec 8, 2012)

Ehouse said:


> If you buy good boots and shoes with stitched assembly, (like Red Wings), you should be able to find a repair shop if you dig. Modern glue assembly doesn't lend itself to such consumer activism.
> 
> I'd buy a pair of used Red wings or Chippewa's from the Goodwill before spending $200+ for new junk.
> 
> Ehouse


 
Not always! I have a pair of stitched hiking boots from LL Bean that were starting to come apart.. I wanted to get them resoled and the stitching repaired (the very reason I bought stitched boots in the first place). I took them to the Delmar "Bootery" in Albany.. they wouldn't touch them. Maybe I'll try another place.


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## heat seeker (Dec 8, 2012)

Bean has a lifetime warranty - give them a call.


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## Ehouse (Dec 8, 2012)

homebrewz said:


> Not always! I have a pair of stitched hiking boots from LL Bean that were starting to come apart.. I wanted to get them resoled and the stitching repaired (the very reason I bought stitched boots in the first place). I took them to the Delmar "Bootery" in Albany.. they wouldn't touch them. Maybe I'll try another place.


 
I think Carl Bagnardi still does shoe repair at 128 Chestnut St. in Oneonta, just past Walgreen's on the right.  607 432 3041.


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## homebrewz (Dec 8, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Bean has a lifetime warranty - give them a call.


 
When I bought them, the salesperson explained that the lifetime warranty was for the reasonable life of the product, not forever. I can't argue with that, it seems reasonable to me, which I why I didn't try to contact them. When they started falling apart they were already about 8 years old.. its been even longer now. I have returned stuff to LL Bean which I didn't feel lived up to its lifetime. I might give the local guy a try.


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## basod (Dec 8, 2012)

Jags said:


> And R12 was an environmental issue. Same same.


More so becuase of it's use as a propellant than in refrigeration.
And Dow had new patents on refrigerants that they actually lobbied for the phasing out, same goes for R-22.

If we used the same recapture\recycle technology and refrigeration licensing as is in place today I doubt there would be any  new holes in the ozone layer


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## firefighterjake (Dec 8, 2012)

homebrewz said:


> When I bought them, the salesperson explained that the lifetime warranty was for the reasonable life of the product, not forever. I can't argue with that, it seems reasonable to me, which I why I didn't try to contact them. When they started falling apart they were already about 8 years old.. its been even longer now. I have returned stuff to LL Bean which I didn't feel lived up to its lifetime. I might give the local guy a try.


 
I'd be willing to bet they would still make the exchange . . . but that said . . . I think after 8 years of decent use I would call it good and square myself and either fix 'em or buy new.


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## jharkin (Dec 8, 2012)

Sounds like 'lifetime' has become code for 'as long as we feel like'


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## Jags (Dec 10, 2012)

basod said:


> More so becuase of it's use as a propellant than in refrigeration.
> And Dow had new patents on refrigerants that they actually lobbied for the phasing out, same goes for R-22.
> 
> If we used the same recapture\recycle technology and refrigeration licensing as is in place today I doubt there would be any new holes in the ozone layer


 
Yeah but... Every front end fender bender that ended up in the junk yard "magically" broke the AC lines.  Every darn one of them.


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## Paulywalnut (Dec 11, 2012)

I've half tried fixing mine,some of it is sealed, so when you break the seal I think it would leak.
Maybe super glue, but thats pretty toxic stuff. Oh well, Thats why its a throw away in company opinion.
Ashame though.


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## jharkin (Dec 11, 2012)

Paulywalnut said:


> I've half tried fixing mine,some of it is sealed, so when you break the seal I think it would leak.
> Maybe super glue, but thats pretty toxic stuff. Oh well, Thats why its a throw away in company opinion.
> Ashame though.


 
Superglue is Cyanoacrylate. Other than fumes which can be an eye irritant its actually quite non-toxic. In fact its the basis of medical adhesives like dermabond that can be used in place of stitches.

The problem with super glue is that the "super" property is simply the fact that it sticks to most anything and cures extremely fast. It doesn't actually make a very strong bond in most cases though.  If you are trying to glue plastic a better option is a real plastic glue, most of which are actually solvents that melt the plastic pieces together - plastic pipe cement for PVC or ABS, or plastic model glue for styrene.


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