# Need advice for new install



## Jgrant0553 (Aug 6, 2014)

Ok so I am building a new house for myself. It is about 1600 sqft in total and I am looking to install a fisher papa bear stove centrally in the house. I was planning on putting the stove next to an exterior wall and running the chimney up the side of the house. That would give me a very short horizontal run and about a 25' chimney. I felt fine with this but after reading the forum I'm starting to think this might not be the best plan. Am I better off relocating the stove and keeping the chimney inside the envelope of the house. I could relocate and have a pretty straight run up and out the roof. I live in ky and while we do have cold snaps it usually isn't bad. I would like to be able to run the stove all night but I'm worried about cold chimney ir other problems of running out the wall. I am in a position to do either just not sure what is best. Any help and advise is much appreciated.


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## begreen (Aug 6, 2014)

Welcome. A straight up interior chimney will function better and should cost less. The house will look better too. Now about that old stove... Why not put in a good, clean burning modern heater in which you get the enjoyment of more heat for less wood and a spectacular fire view to enjoy?


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## Jgrant0553 (Aug 6, 2014)

begreen said:


> Welcome. A straight up interior chimney will function better and should cost less. The house will look better too. Now about that old stove... Why not put in a good, clean burning modern heater in which you get the enjoyment of more heat for less wood and a spectacular fire view to enjoy?



I like the old stove. The top is nice and flat to cook on plus I enjoy the way it looks. New stoves are just not to my taste.


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## begreen (Aug 6, 2014)

I can understand that. In WA state the old Fisher would not be allowed in new construction. The papa bear could be overkill in a 1600 sq ft, modern, well insulated house. There are several stoves that have nice flat tops for cooking if so desired. And the fire view can't be beat. Added some pictures to my first post. New stoves will also keep your chimney cleaner as long as they are fed fully seasoned wood.


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## webby3650 (Aug 6, 2014)

Especially since you are building new, check out some new modern stoves. I appreciate the old stoves, but they are nowhere near as enjoyable as the new ones. And keep that chimney inside if at all possible.


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## Jgrant0553 (Aug 6, 2014)

begreen said:


> I can understand that. In WA state the old Fisher would not be allowed in new construction. The papa bear could be overkill in a 1600 sq ft, modern, well insulated house. There are several stoves that have nice flat tops for cooking if so desired. And the fire view can't be beat. Added some pictures to my first post.



Building out in the middle of no where on a farm stead exemption I don't have to deal with building codes. I'm doing things as cheaply as I can, money wise not construction. I had the stove in the barn and really want to use it in the house. I could go with a nice new stove but am attached to this one. I know there are many fine choices but this one is free, in good shape and has character.


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## begreen (Aug 6, 2014)

Check the clearance requirements, 36" in all directions for that old dogger. Proper NFPA wall shielding can reduce this. I would keep it as a barn heater.


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## Grisu (Aug 7, 2014)

You must like cutting and splitting wood then. That old Fisher needs about twice the number of cords than a newer stove for the same amount of heat. Budget should really not be a problem. Some simple steel stoves for less than $1000:
Pacific Energy True North:  http://www.pacificenergy.net/files/1413/8999/7509/truenorth_ped.jpg
Englander Madison: https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/133/133517-af929dd48f7fe6d760dbe37367d6ca84.jpg


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## Jgrant0553 (Aug 7, 2014)

Thank you so much for the info. Right now I'm sticking with my old stove for the minute. Let me get the thing installed and burning then I will ponder a newer stove because your right splitting all that wood might get out of hand. So aside from my poor choice in stoves it seems I should keep the chimney inside. My concern is cutting another hole in my nice new metal roof. Actually I don't mind the hole but I need a good roof kit that has a quality flashing that will work on a raised rib roof, any suggestions? I'm having trouble finding a vendor. I don't mind ordering on line but I need to know who is quality and who is crap. 

So if I keep the chimney inside I will need to go through the second floor and out the attic. I assume I will need a thimble through the ceiling on the first floor and double wall pipe. I will box the pipe on the second floor and then up through the attic and out the roof.  Anything outside will need to be triple wall correct. It will be a straight run but I might need a 45 at the very top so I miss the peak of the roof, will that still work. 
Thanks again for all the info this is so helpful. I will defiantly research other stoves and yes i have plenty of clearance for my fisher.


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## begreen (Aug 7, 2014)

Use the Excel metal roof flashing. It's the best for the job. You will need a regular ceiling support box on the first floor and there should be a firestop at the second floor ceiling. The second story chimney part should be chased. I would use a good double-wall class A chimney pipe, not triple wall. It will have better insulation and 2" less in diameter. That makes it easier to work with and will fit the recommended flashing. DuraTech and Selkirk Ultra-temp or Super-Pro are good chimney pipe. Folks also report liking Olympia Ventis chimney, though I have not used it yet. 45 offsets are not allowed (or made) for chimney pipe. 30 deg. is the maximum. If possible try to avoid this by positioning the stove so that the chimney comes up close, but not right at the ridgeline.

excel flashing
http://www.icc-rsf.com/main.php?t=chem_produits&i=95&l=en


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## begreen (Aug 7, 2014)

You might find this thread on metal roof flashing helpful.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/flashing-help-needed.127256/#post-1712009


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## Jgrant0553 (Sep 14, 2014)

Ok so a few more questions. I went with everyone's advice and ditched the old fisher for an englander 30 nc. My chimney runs straight up and out through the roof so I think I have all that solved. My next question is with wall covering. I am putting in a brick floor covering but was wondering if it would be alright to use cement board instead of wallboard with a one inch gap. The cement board would go right on the studs and then cover with pressed tin for a radiant wall covering. Will this work or should I go with wall board with a one inch air gap and then the cement board. Thanks again for the help.


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## webby3650 (Sep 14, 2014)

Anything that is non combustible with an air gap is fine. If I understand you correctly? Cement board-air gap-pressed tin. It could even be drywall-air-tin with no issues. Assuming Englander allows reduced clearances with an NFPA approved wall shield.


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## Jgrant0553 (Sep 14, 2014)

The house is just framed right now. Is it alright to just put up the cement board right over the studs? If I do this do I still need an air gap between the tin and cement board?


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## Grisu (Sep 14, 2014)

What would be the distance between the stove side(s) and back to the wall if you would just put drywall over the studs? Do you have double or single wall pipe? How many layers of brick do you plan for the  hearth? The 30NC needs thermal protection of 1.5 in r-value. 4" brick has only 0.8.


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## Jgrant0553 (Sep 14, 2014)

The back distance is 12" it needs 14". The side clearance is 20" which is what is needed. Single wall pipe up to the ceiling then double wall out. Yes your right on the brick. What is best for underneath? Same one inch air gap or is there a good floor board?


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## begreen (Sep 17, 2014)

The 30NC needs good hearth protection. You can buy a pre-made type 2 hearth or make your own that meets the R = 1.5 spec.


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## Shwammy (Sep 17, 2014)

Ok, I'm convinced now that this site is actually ran by the EPA. You had a really great stove man. Better make sure your woodpile can't get wet or you'll freeze with that EPA stove. Damn trolls, he never even got to try it out before you guys pee'd in the pot. Another "Classic Stove" thread ruined. Sorry to everyone who came here looking for solid info on installing and running this great classic stove I can't name because it will drive traffic to this nearly useless thread.


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## Cssmit (Sep 18, 2014)

+1 Schwammy! Took the words right out of my mouth. Now that's funny right there!


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## Jgrant0553 (Sep 18, 2014)

It's all good. Was looking for advise and  totally realize everyone has there opinions. I would have kept the fisher but 36" or even 24" would have put it in the middle of the room. The new stove fits nicely in the corner and having glass in the door is cozy. My main concern is not burning my house down and I feel confident that I got solid advise and my install looks good. I appreciate all the help and I'm sure my questions are simple but I like to double check things. I'm a carpenter but never installed a stove before.


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## Grisu (Sep 18, 2014)

Jgrant0553 said:


> The back distance is 12" it needs 14". The side clearance is 20" which is what is needed. Single wall pipe up to the ceiling then double wall out. Yes your right on the brick. What is best for underneath? Same one inch air gap or is there a good floor board?



The Englander has a rear heat-shield; you don't want to install that one? Otherwise you can look at NFPA 211 to determine which heat shield would be appropriate. However, the reductions/clearances in the manual supersede the ones given by NFPA 211. Here is a link: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/wood_stove_clearances_installing_it_safely You want to install a heat shield spaced 1" away from the wall which is open at the bottom and top. That way air will flow freely behind the shield and keep the drywall cool. Having the cement board sitting right on the studs is NOT a heat-shield even when it is not combustible. It will heat up and transfer that heat to the studs creating an unsafe condition. The tin may make things even worse.

For the hearth, here is a list of common hearth materials and their r-values: https://chimneysweeponline.com/horvalue.htm
If you look in the forum there are quite a few threads where people describe how they built a hearth for the 30NC. A raised hearth would make loading easier as the 30NC sits pretty low. An UL-tested type 2 stove board would be the easy and cheap solution but would not look as nice, IMHO.

Edit: Guess I was a little late with that post. Congrats to the new stove. Feed it dry wood and I am sure you will have it warm and cozy this winter.


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## Scols (Sep 25, 2014)

Its pointless to even have an old stove forum on here. God forbid someone has to heat with wood out of necessity or a desire to live off the grid and doesn't have the means to buy a new stove. How hard is it to answer a question without turning it into an advertisement for Englander,Woodstock,Jotul...etc. The experienced members here know that an epa stove will burn just as dirty as a "old smoke dragon" if you don't use seasoned wood. And lets face it, the majority of people who go to their local hearth shop to purchase a new stove because they like the look of a fire but also want to supplement their home heating bill are buying their winter wood in September and burning it in November. And that's the real issue with responsible burning.And in my opinion a decked out fisher with shiny paws and pine tree moldings on the doors is as pleasing to the eye as the view of a fire through generic glass doors. So please ,can questions just be answered in a straight forward manner without the superior attitudes


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## bholler (Sep 25, 2014)

I agree that new stoves should not automatically be pushed on people.  But when someone is thinking of installing an old one they should consider the down sides to old stoves like huge clearance requirements generally larger and there fore more expensive stack.  and the fact that they are not as efficient.  If you are ok with that and your insurance company is ok with a non listed stove go ahead and do it but you still should burn dry wood and hot fires or you will have the same problems as new stoves when wet wood is used in them.  I think everyone needs to make their own decision on this but they need to know the down sides to old stoves to make an informed decision.  As well as the down sides to new ones but really the only down side to a good new stove is the price in my opinion.  And by the way i am using a 40 year old stove and love it before one of you accuses me of being an epa shill or what ever other ridiculous thing you come up with.


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## Scols (Sep 25, 2014)

bholler said:


> I agree that new stoves should not automatically be pushed on people.  But when someone is thinking of installing an old one they should consider the down sides to old stoves like huge clearance requirements generally larger and there fore more expensive stack.  and the fact that they are not as efficient.  If you are ok with that and your insurance company is ok with a non listed stove go ahead and do it but you still should burn dry wood and hot fires or you will have the same problems as new stoves when wet wood is used in them.  I think everyone needs to make their own decision on this but they need to know the down sides to old stoves to make an informed decision.  As well as the down sides to new ones but really the only down side to a good new stove is the price in my opinion.  And by the way i am using a 40 year old stove and love it before one of you accuses me of being an epa shill or what ever other ridiculous thing you come up with.


I would go out on a limb and venture agues that there are two types of people using old stoves. 1, Those who have had their stoves for a long time and are either experts at using them or have used the same poor burning practices for many years and will never change their ways or 2, someone who is low on cash but needs a way to keep their family warm and has either been given an old stove or bought one for short money. Either way "just a grand" for a new Englander is not in their reality


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## bholler (Sep 25, 2014)

Well neither of those applies to me i just installed mine and spent close to 1000 to fix it up.  But i love cawleys and they burn really clean to


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## Grisu (Sep 26, 2014)

Scols said:


> I would go out on a limb and venture agues that there are two types of people using old stoves. 1, Those who have had their stoves for a long time and are either experts at using them or have used the same poor burning practices for many years and will never change their ways or 2, someone who is low on cash but needs a way to keep their family warm and has either been given an old stove or bought one for short money. Either way "just a grand" for a new Englander is not in their reality



I would add a 3rd: People who had been with woodstoves in their youth and have no clue that they also (like many other things) have seen significant improvements over time. 

I have no problem with 1 and 2 continue using a classic stove but want to avoid that #3 buys one just because they are uninformed. Instead of grumbling about the EPA-stove crowd listing the benefits of a newer stove why not post the advantages of a classic stove and let the user decide which one they rather want to own?


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## Scols (Sep 26, 2014)

In my experience the older stoves throw out more heat, have greater durability and in my opinion are much more pleasing to the eye. If your wood is less than perfect you can still get good heat from a pre EPA stove while the Englander 13 we used in our first winter with a stove usually left us cold due to unseasoned wood. Theres less maintenance with pre EPA stoves when you account for the lack of cats etc.... Instead of trolling for old stove users to convert to EPA's how about using your knowledge to guide those who desire new stoves.


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## Frank625 (Sep 26, 2014)

Scols said:


> I would go out on a limb and venture agues that there are two types of people using old stoves. 1, Those who have had their stoves for a long time and are either experts at using them or have used the same poor burning practices for many years and will never change their ways or 2, someone who is low on cash but needs a way to keep their family warm and has either been given an old stove or bought one for short money. Either way "just a grand" for a new Englander is not in their reality



I had a high electric bill because of my electric heat. $100 for my stove, refinished it and cleaned it in my shop, $100 for adapters and pipe ( Luckily I already had a double wall insulated stainless steel chimney in place), $100 for tile and concrete board. Free Wood I cut myself, I cut the driest dead stuff on my property that year, now I stock pile. The whole setup paid for itself in the first two months and that was three seasons ago. I'm not interested in spending more money on my stove or going with an EPA stove. It's fine if you want to reduce the smoke you create with an EPA stove, but just think of those hundreds of thousands acres that burn each year in forest fires for the past few thousand years. It is just my opinion and it may not ne so humble, but I think the good you are doing is mostly in your mind. The EPA is another Government Agency mandating more rules and bureaucracy, some beneficial some not. I do believe that if there is any kind of disaster, financial collapse, etc......the guys with the Older Stoves will be able to provide heat for their families and there will be a lot of Cold EPA stoves.


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## bholler (Sep 26, 2014)

Honestly i care about the environment and pollute as little as i can but that has very little to do with my opinion of new versus old stoves.  I clean and work on chimneys all day year round and i see the difference in the stacks on both new and old.  And there are a few guys that have old stoves that burn really dry wood and their stacks actually look pretty good but most have a decent amount of creosote and with new stoves it is the opposite most are pretty good conditions and a few are nasty.   You guys are to focused on rebelling against the epa and are looking past the fact that they are better stoves in just about every way.  And by the way the englander 13 nc is a small stove what were you trying to heat with it If the stove is to small all the efficiency in the world wont make it big enough.  Again if people are making the informed decision to use old stoves and they are doing it safely and responsibly i am all for it but they should be informed about both sides.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 26, 2014)

Frank625 said:


> I do believe that if there is any kind of disaster, financial collapse, etc......the guys with the Older Stoves will be able to provide heat for their families and there will be a lot of Cold EPA stoves.



I would love to hear the logic behind that one.


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## bholler (Sep 26, 2014)

Yeah bb that doesn't make any sense to me either because honestly if the parts are no longer available you can burn modern stoves without lots of those parts and they will work about the same as the old ones.  I know lots of people with older cat stoves that got tired of replacing the cat and just go without it and they burn fine if they have good wood.  They are not nearly as efficient as they should be but they heat ok.  (i am not recomending burning without all the parts by any means just saying they work ok in a pinch)


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## Frank625 (Sep 26, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> I would love to hear the logic behind that one.


You won't have the luxury of burning perfect wood nor the time to prepare it. The old stoves are more versatile...capisce...you understand now brotha


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## bholler (Sep 26, 2014)

Frank625 said:


> You won't have the luxury of burning perfect wood nor the time to prepare it. The old stoves are more versatile...capisce...you understand now brotha



The new stoves will burn on less than perfect wood just like the old ones will.  And new stoves use less wood to do the same job so i would think that would be a benefit.  And why would it be harder to season wood in the event of a disaster? doesn't really add up if you can still process wood why would it change things any?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 26, 2014)

Burned in the old stoves for 30 years. Wet wood doesn't work any better in them than it does in the newer stoves. And can be burned in either one. I don't care what stove people burn in. But I do care when people speak of that which they do not have experience.

I would like to know what a financial collapse has to do with being ahead on drying wood. Seems to me those with three years worth drying on the stacks would be better off than the guy cutting last Thursday to burn today anyway.


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## Grisu (Sep 26, 2014)

I want to see all those "preppers" trying to cut and split 10 cords for their smokedragons with bow saw and axe because they don't get fuel nor spare parts for their chainsaw and splitter while I feed my EPA-stove happily with some deadfall.


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## Boomer Sailor (Sep 26, 2014)

I'll guess I'll keep my mouth shut about my pellet insert    I did have a wood stove before this, but the wife refused... (did I say REFUSED?)  to touch it.  I work evenings... she works days... I would load the stove before I left - she would come home to a warm cozy house and beautiful fire... I would come home at 1:30am to a cold house... a 175-degree stove.... barely an ember left to light a match from and start the process all over again.

I lost that battle... but I do have a lazy man's 24/7 flame and a 70 degree house when I get home at 1:30.   On second thought... maybe I didn't lose!

Sounds like you love the old stove though.  Get what makes you happy - stoves can be a bit of work (labor of love) - just stay warm and happy!


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## begreen (Sep 26, 2014)

Frank625 said:


> You won't have the luxury of burning perfect wood nor the time to prepare it. The old stoves are more versatile...capisce...you understand now brotha


I have both old and new stoves. Both burn way better with dry wood. Just why would one not continue the practice of having a generous supply of wood a year or two in advance. Exactly why would one not have this "luxury"? No capisce.


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## LiamK (Sep 27, 2014)

Agreed that not everyone is in a position to buy a new stove. Learning about the old ones helps us.



Scols said:


> 2, someone who is low on cash but needs a way to keep their family warm and has been given an old stove... "just a grand" for a new Englander is not in their reality


Yep, that'd be me. I got a free wood stove from a guy who was gutting his house. I'm unemployed, in debt, looking for work, and need to heat my house this winter. I do not have $1,000 to spend, period. 

I'm trying to learn more about the 1986 Avalon AVB-800 stove that I got for free. Pics, details and questions are posted here: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...b-800-or-av5-800-insert-from-oct-1985.129197/


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## begreen (Sep 27, 2014)

For others following this thread, we have a classics forum for discussions on installing, running, buying and repair old stoves. Note that even if the stove is for free, installing it safely is not usually free.


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