# Catalytic vs. Burn Tubes



## Rockey (Jan 21, 2009)

Is it just me or is my catalytic insert just much easier to operate and maintain good heat from? From what I have read it seems that most people prefer secondary burn tubes than catalytic. Here is what I my experiences have helped me learn about each: 

There is definitely a learning curve to using both correctly and maybe I'm still on the steep part of the curve with the Englander 30. Everytime I fill it up I think to myself how much longer that wood would have lasted in the catalytic insert upstairs and how much more effective heating it would have done. Granted this isn't a totally fair comparison because the Englander is in an unfinished basement with insulated walls, where a lot of heat losses are occuring, but I can extrapolate some useful information by watching the stove top temp. After I get the wood nice and charred (which happens fast in NC30) I close down my flue damper so it is closed and then I begin closing the primary air intake in increments. I usually stop when it is near the lip of the tray, sometimes further in sometimes further out. This will be good for about 400-450 stove top temp with the fan on high (add about 150 - 200 if the fan is off). Then I try to leave it alone. It stays there for about an hour and then the temps begin to drop and the flames start to die out. At that point I can let it slowly die out  and the temps will drop to about 250-300 in a few hours and the wood will be mostly coals. If I open the air intake right when the temps begin to drop I can keep the temps up a bit more to a certain extent because the wood will then burn up faster and it will reach the coaling stage quicker. I have tried all different combinations of leaving the damper partially open with various settings on the air intake on the stove but the results are never like they are with the catalytic insert.

My catalytic insert is so much easier (for me) to operate. I fill it, get it up to about 375 degrees and close the air intake all the way down and watch the temps climb to about 475-500 where it stays for hours even in the coaling stages. whne the coals are far enough  burned down I repeat. This is all with about half the wood it takes to fill the NC30. I need to run both when it is in the teens or lower to maintain 70-75 in the house, so far I haven't needed the furnace and don't see any need for it so i am achieving that much. I am leaning towrads replacing the NC30 with a large catalytic that will hopefully be as easy to operate as my cat insert and give me a longer burn time. Does this seem unrealistic> Am I doing something wrong with my nc30?

The NC 30 has about 30 ft of uninsulated ss flue plus the single wall pipe connected to the stove and two 30 deg elbows connected to it. That is why I added the flue damper. The insert and NC30 burn the same wood yet the flue from the NC30 almost always has white smoke coming from it, whereas the insert almost never does.


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## Wet1 (Jan 21, 2009)

I can't help you with your issues, but I'm quickly coming to the same conclusion regarding the advantages of having the cat.  I had been toying with the idea of picking up a NC30 for my basement as I like the idea of having the large fire box, but after doing a lot of reading on cats, I think that's the direction for me.  I want high capacity, long burn times, plus efficiency and going with a cat seems to be the only way to get this.  I'm not crazy about having to replace the cat every 6 or 7 years, but that seems to be a fair trade-off for what is gained.  Being able to reload the stove only once or twice a day is very appealing to me since I'm not always around to tend to the fire... and saving wood on top of that is icing on the cake.

I hate to drop all this coin on a steel stove, but I think I'm going to buy the large BK for next season since it seems to be the only stove on the market which really meets my criteria.  I wish there were other large cat options (hello Woodstock!), but it seems the BK is exactly what I'm looking for.


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## karri0n (Jan 21, 2009)

Rockey,

I've been making the same sort of observations. I have a secondary burn model, but I'm seeing more and more that catalytic models seem to get much better burn times and longer heat output. As someone who has owned both, I have a question for you. When the cat lights off the excess volatiles, does the heat from this ever reach the stovetop or make it into the house? I know secondary burn definitely raises the stovetop temp.


Edit: wet1, I agree with you completely. The BK's performance seems great, but it really fails in the looks department, especially compared to the beautiful Cast Iron symmetry of my Isle Royale.


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## semipro (Jan 21, 2009)

Rockey, I have some of the same questions/concerns as you.  I've been burning a Jotul Firelight Cat in the basement for 9 years (Oct - Mar) on the original catalytic converter and though the converter shows visible signs of deterioration its still hard to see anything but heat waves coming out of the top of the flue when this thiing is burning right.  When I clean the flue I find it fairly unrewarding as very lilttle creosote forms even though I burn some very questionable wood.   My experience with operation is basically the same as yours; get it hot, engage the cat, burn down about 3/4, reload, engage the cat. and so on.

I still find myself tempted to make my next stove, likely an iinsert for the 1st floor family room, a non-catatlytic.  I admit the challenge of working with a different technology is attractive to me.  Howver, I've read some posts on some of the non-cat stoves that indicate that they have their own problems with operation and maintenance.  In the mean time I'll keep monitoriing these forums and will likely be looking for some advice on which inserts to consider soon.


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## Wet1 (Jan 21, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> Edit: wet1, I agree with you completely. The BK's performance seems great, but it really fails in the looks department, especially compared to the beautiful Cast Iron symmetry of my Isle Royale.


Valid concern.  Since I want to stick it in my mostly finished basement, I'm not overly concerned about the appearance of the BK.  OTOH, if I were looking for a stove to go in the living room, I would likely eliminate the BK from my short list.  This is why I think there's a big opportunity for someone like Woodstock.

The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on the BK today is the outrageous price (for what it is).  I'm sure the performance is worth it, but I know there's a huge profit in this stove.  I have someone else that wants one as well, so I'll probably see what kind of deal I can manage for two of them in the off-season.


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## Rockey (Jan 21, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> Rockey,
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> When the cat lights off the excess volatiles, does the heat from this ever reach the stovetop or make it into the house? I know secondary burn definitely raises the stovetop temp.



Karri0n -

Yest the heat from the catalytic secondary burn definitley makes it way to the house. I believe it is because of the the design of the Energy King Insert that I have. If you look at the cutaway view here: http://www.energyking.com/woodstoves-cutaway.htm   The hot air spends more time near the air box surrounding the insert and transfers well to house. The air is extremely hot exiting from the blower when the front of the insert reaches 500. I have yet to read about anyone else who owns a Bay 2000C Energy King insert but trust me, they are a very good high quality insert.


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## savageactor7 (Jan 21, 2009)

I fall asleep too quick if I'm in the stove room. That's why I chose a stove I could load and walk away from or fall asleep on.

 It's was my understanding with the cats you have tinker 15-20 min after every reload. I know that's no big deal for many cause they say with cats like the blaze king you load twice a day. I just don't want a stove that has to be monitored closely and that's my impression of cats.

2ndly and more importantly I'm looking for heat, major heat, the kind of uncomfortable heat that you avert your eyes from, shed clothes, crave an ice tea/lemonade etc. Not that I require that heat mind you but certain people do and imo that heat comes for quantities of wood that I don't mind burning. 

I'm not looking for BS gimmick technology that's excels at smoldering wood for those pie in the sky 12 hour burns while saving the environment. Yeah that's important too I guess.

 Right now I'd rate our QF4300 as adequate but I'm looking to upgrade for something with more reserve firepower like the  QF5700 or NC30 ...a big box stove...but I wouldn't rule out a big cat like a blaze king or PE if they were proven to me to be heat merchants.

Edit ti add I meant to comment on how I like what I see here about the cats. performance.


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## karri0n (Jan 21, 2009)

SA, my thing is that with a secondary burn model, once you are past a stage that you can get secondary burn, there's cool air rushing through the firebox and cooling the stove, as well as sending my heat up the flue. In a cat, it's still doing a secondary burn, just not a visible one, and the coals/wood in the box can still be heating, and I've seen reports of people reading 1500+ from the flue gases after the cat. A cat cranking away at 1500+ just HAS to be heating the house. I've seen lots of debate of cat vs. non-cat, and I can see the advantages of both, but the non-cats seem to only be at an advantage at the gasification stage. However, I can't speak from experience, and I've seen lots of seasoned wood burners that prefer non-cat, and lots that prefer cat. I gues it's really a matter of opinion, and what you're looking for from the stove.


edit: I've also never seen anyone with a complaint about their woodstock, AND I've seen videos of woodstocks getting secondary burn in the firebox. The Woodstocks aren't big enough for my application, though.


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## semipro (Jan 21, 2009)

Wow, if stovepipe temps in some cat stoves are really that hot (and clean) it seems like some sort of heat exchanger right after the stove could really extract some more heat from the flue gases without causing other problems (creosote formation, poor drafting).


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## savageactor7 (Jan 21, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> A cat cranking away at 1500+ just HAS to be heating the house.



That has always been my first impression of cats as well. 1500 holy cow with 4 stoves we've never been there before. Sorry I'm such a doubting Thomas...I want to believe but so many worship at the alter of the long burns that we few that require heat at any wood cost are patronized with statistics. 

I think I can squeeze a few more degrees of heat by putting in an flue damper but the weather hasn't cooperated.


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## karri0n (Jan 21, 2009)

Well, I also like the blinding heat production, but it's not useful to me when I can make 4 hours of blinding heat and 2 hours of coals burning off on the overnight burn, to wake up to a 120 degree stove on a 3.0 CF firebox. It's not like the cat stoves don't have an air control to turn the heat up if your burn time isn't as important. I still think even with this the cat will burn longer. I know if I'm getting the advertised 40 hours of burn time in a BKK, that it can't be releasing as much BTU/hr(Law of conservation of Energy and all), but I at least know that it's not just blowing air and heat up the flue. 


As far as those who worship the altar of long burns, it seems to me that a lot of the people on here at least are worshipping at the secondary burn altar, and believe that you will be throwing away your life savings by replacing your catalyst every 2 weeks.


Once again, I can't speak from experience and I remain impartial, but it just sounds like the cat is the better option. I like a good light show too, but I must put function over form when it comes to keeping my family warm.


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## Diabel (Jan 21, 2009)

I only have experience with two stoves: VC Encore 2190 cat & VC Encore non-cat. All I can say is that the cat stove uses 50% less wood during the same burn cycle with the same heat output. I have done this repeatedly over the past three years.


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## karri0n (Jan 21, 2009)

Diabel said:
			
		

> I only have experience with two stoves: VC Encore 2190 cat & VC Encore non-cat. All I can say is that the cat stove uses 50% less wood during the same burn cycle with the same heat output. I have done this repeatedly over the past three years.




That's an excellent experiment. Thanks for this post.


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## Wet1 (Jan 21, 2009)

Semipro said:
			
		

> Wow, if stovepipe temps in some cat stoves are really that hot (and clean) it seems like some sort of heat exchanger right after the stove could really extract some more heat from the flue gases without causing other problems (creosote formation, poor drafting).



I would assume the 1500° temps seen are at the cat itself and not the gases further downstream (up the flue) after the cat.  Regardless, much of this heat is transfered to the stove housing around the cat.


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## Diabel (Jan 21, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

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That is also my understanding.


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## Highbeam (Jan 21, 2009)

We need options in cat stoves from name brand manunfacturers. 

The big blaze king requires an 8" flue and I recall the BK stoves being very expensive. The smaller BK Princess is a decent looking stove and uses a 6" flue but is only 2.8 CF. The BK line is actually growing on me, they are starting to look decent. 

I checked out the energy king and THAT is an ugly stove. (sorry for offending, personal taste)The insert looks better but still, not pretty. They also don't publish firebox volume or burn time. It takes a 21" log and uses a 6" flue. 

The woodstock is too small at 2.3 CF. 

VC is, well, a VC. 

I have a non-cat stove and it works fine but I don't need blinding heat as much as I need long burn times.


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## bsruther (Jan 21, 2009)

Rockey said:
			
		

> I am leaning towrads replacing the NC30 with a large catalytic that will hopefully be as easy to operate as my cat insert and give me a longer burn time.



Let me know if you decide to sell your Englander, I might be interested.
I doubt that I live very far from you.


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## savageactor7 (Jan 21, 2009)

Good report Diabel ...I'm just assuming it's a lot colder up there too. 

Let me ask will the cat stove put out more heat than the other stove...can you feel its radiance from 15-20 feet away? I require blinding heat and since I'll be retiring next month it doesn't matter if I have to reload every 4hr or so. 

As far as a VC goes I'm not ruling them out either...they were THE premier stove maker for my entire life. Severe financial problems can make anyone desperate it's how they act from now on. But those VC's are imo complicated stoves that got me thinking I'm not cut out for a cat.  

Never the less nothing made in N America is ruled out and it's not like I'm gonna buy one next week.


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## Diabel (Jan 21, 2009)

From 15-20 feet away you will not feel the radiance from neither stove, at least I don't feel it! At that distance the air is already mixed with room air/flow. As for the stoves...with the non-cat all of the reburn occurs at the back of the stove therefore in the first 3-4 hrs you feel only moderate heat at the front of the stove. With the cat stove you feel the heat at the front right from the start. At the coaling stage they're both the same.


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## Todd (Jan 21, 2009)

Rockey,
Nice to see an Energy King burner here. I live about 2 miles from the manufacture. Small town quality driven company, never heard anything bad about them. I use to own a free stander but it was a non cat. I wonder why they switched back to cat stoves? Most manufactures are going away from cats which I always thought was a mistake. My dad pals around with the owner, I'll have to ask him about this. What size is the firebox on your insert? I looked into the insert years ago, but was too spendy at the time.

I also have experience with both non cats and cats of similar size and can say without a doubt the cats seem more efficient and burn less wood, but both have their ups and downs. 

Rumor has it Woodstock is coming out with a large stove soon. I sent an email baiting them that question, we will see.


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## begreen (Jan 21, 2009)

As Highbeam noted, there's a major difference in price between the Englander and BlazeKings. Englander used to make a cat model, the 24 ACD which sounded like a pretty nice stove. Too bad it was discontinued as it was alone it's field for price/performance. Also, there is a very significant design difference between the Encore cat and non-cat. Based on field reports here I could see how if the non-cat Encore was not set up with ideal draft, it might consume a lot more wood. 

That said, if PE decided to make a cat version of the T6/Summit I'd be interested. Burn times with softwood are not spectacular and I think it would flatten out the heat performance curve.


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## TheFlame (Jan 21, 2009)

The conclusion of Tom the Chimney Sweep (he's a member here) is that cat stoves do not excel overall compared to secondary burn stoves.  He basically concludes that nobody should ever buy one (not his stated words, but it's pretty obvious from his comments). 

His arguments are found here:

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hocats.htm

I've been wanting to debate his arguments here for some time, and I figure now is as good a time as any.

Discuss.


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## begreen (Jan 21, 2009)

The article is a bit dated. True, improvements in stove design have produced non-cat stoves that burn almost or as clean as a cat stove. However, the few remaining cat stove mfgs. have ironed out most of the bugs and newer catalysts seem to stand up longer. 

A cat stove isn't for everyone, they do require some specific burning constraints and a little additional maintenance. But their real strength is turning out to be steady heat output which is not often touted as their best feature. This, together with long clean burns at low settings is enough to keep me interested. But the BlazeKing would never make it passed my wife into our livingroom and I'm unlikely to own a VC stove anytime soon.


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## TheFlame (Jan 21, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> The article is a bit dated. True, improvements in stove design have produced non-cat stoves that burn almost or as clean as a cat stove. However, the few remaining cat stove mfgs. have ironed out most of the bugs and newer catalysts seem to stand up longer.



Dated?  He totally poo-poos the esteemed Woodstock Fireview, known world-wide (or at least within the domain of hearth.com) as the gold standard for catalytic wood stoves!

In any case, I love the part where "Todd", who owned both a Hearthstone Homestead and a Fireview, objectively states that the Fireview is a better stove and produces more heat with less wood.  Then Tom goes on to state, "I'm not a big fan of some of the numbers manufacturer's toss around either, specifically heating area and burn time per load of fuel, which I feel are more than a trifle subjective and might get a bit exaggerated by overzealous marketing departments at times."  After which he uses an entire page of numbers to refute Todd's claim that the Fireview is a better stove.  Classic hypocrisy.  I value the objective opinion of somebody who has burned both stoves over a bunch of calculated numbers as to why one is "better" than the other.

While I don't want to beat up Tom too much unless he's present, when I stumbled on that page quite some time ago I always thought it was very slanted towards what Tom sells (non-catalytic stoves), and I always wanted to get the opinions of others on it.

My esperience with my Oslo is that even though it is a really great heater, it reacts in exactly the way described in the original post.  The heat output curve is very peaky, and I am fiddling with it alot.  I still love it, but the catalytics actually seem like easier operation to me, it sounds like once you get the cat lit off you can do no wrong, whereas with a burn tube stove you could have the secondary burn stall if things aren't quite perfect, and then from there you got black glass and no heat.


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## karri0n (Jan 21, 2009)

I read the articles on Tom's site, and I think I can see where the problem lies. The figures he uses for comparison(he relies on the nominal efficiency of the appliance a lot) are lab tests with ideal setups, in a warm lab with moderate outdoor temps. In the largely variable real world, with less than perfect wood, different temperature and draft conditions, I doubt there are man y situations where a secondary burn appliance is going to be gettin 100% perfect conditions for secondary combustion. The cats seem to be more versatile in that the cat isn't relying on draft for secondary combustion, and isn't constantly pulling extra air past the secondary burn stage of the wood burning process, thereby both cooling the firebox and burning the fuel at a higher rate than it would be if it was controlled by a single air inlet as in a cat stove.


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## karri0n (Jan 21, 2009)

If woodstock made a 3.0cf or higher stove that had a front loading door, I'd buy it in a second.(as long as it had a cat)


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## Highbeam (Jan 21, 2009)

I wouldn't be so hard on Tom. I was looking at pellet stoves a while back and I am again for a second stove. He is against pellet stoves too but he did sell them for many years before coming to the conclusion that they are no good. Perhaps he did try the cat stoves and found that they weren't a good deal.


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## karri0n (Jan 21, 2009)

I hope my post wasn't misconstrued as an attack on Tom. I have much respect for him. I just feel this is another of the many occasions where anecdotal evidence and lab evidence don't really line up with each other.


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## savageactor7 (Jan 21, 2009)

Well like everyone else I went to the article too...my interpretation is that after getting/hearing a lot of complaints on cats Tom made the decision not to sell them. Hey no harm no foul as far as I'm concerned being a dealer he has a dog in that fight and every right to discriminate. But that was then and this is now, we know that technology makes leaps and bounds every 18months or so. So things must have improved with cats.

Years ago I decided a cat wasn't for us but after hearing wolfkillers report when it was 40 below...well now I'm willing to give them 2nd look and things are sounding promising.


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## Easyellis8 (Jan 21, 2009)

I wish there were other large cat options (hello Woodstock!), but it seems the BK is exactly what I'm looking for.[/quote]

Talked to a rep at woodstock last week and he let the cat out of the bag, a larger woodstock is in the works.  He didn't tell me how big the fire box would be, efficiency etc, but he did say that one is in the works and they are toying with some sort of "hybrid".  Not sure when it's hitting the streets or how long you are willing to wait.


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## daleeper (Jan 21, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> A cat stove isn't for everyone, they do require some specific burning constraints and a little additional maintenance. But their real strength is turning out to be steady heat output which is not often touted as their best feature. This, together with long clean burns at low settings is enough to keep me interested. But the BlazeKing would never make it passed my wife into our livingroom and I'm unlikely to own a VC stove anytime soon.



To start with I think that the argument between cat and non-cat sometimes leave out the fact some want to burn hot, some want long low burns.  I do not think that a non-cat can possibly win in the long low burn department, if both types were set up for their most ideal burning conditions.  Now, I have always believed the suggestion that the non-cat could possibly win in the high output side, yet there seem to be a real high number of Blaze King stove users represented here on the north side of the US/Canadian boarder.   I don't care which one wins the high burn, because my stove room is too small to take advantage of a big stove running real hot.  I want long slow burns.  A person wanting real hot burns are going to be feeding either stove a lot of wood.

What I do see argued here is that the cat requires specific burning constraints, and leave out the fact that the non-cats have very similar constraints.  I have read several of the new stove manual burn procedures for both style stoves.  All require opening the primary air up to start a burn from cold for a period of time (till the wood is charring) and then shut down slowly to the desired burn/heat rate.  The *only* difference is on a cat stove, the bypass damper needs shifted also.  All precautions for using dry wood are the same.  From viewing problems here on the forum, I can't see that the cat maintenance and repair is a whole lot different than non-cat either, though this will bring strong argument from the non-cat crowd.  If both stoves are run properly, neither will take much in the way of maintenance.  If burned improperly, either stove can be damaged beyond repair.


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## begreen (Jan 21, 2009)

By constraints I meant watching what you burn carefully. Cats can be plugged and/or damaged by burning certain materials (ie: metallic inks) and wet wood can damage the cat. In a standard stove, metallic inks are a non-issue. And damp wood, while crappy for heat, won't hurt the stove, though it will plug up the stack with continued burning.


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## southland (Jan 22, 2009)

EasyEd said:
			
		

> I wish there were other large cat options (hello Woodstock!), but it seems the BK is exactly what I'm looking for.



Check out the Buck Model 91 stove.  It's a catalytic stove and has a 4.4 cu ft firebox.  My parents have been using the insert version for 8-9 yrs and it has been an outstanding stove.

http://www.buckstove.com/wood/model91.html


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## Rockey (Jan 22, 2009)

Southland said:
			
		

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Excellent point about the Buck 91. A huge firebox and catalytic, the only drawback looks like an 8" flue. Is this a stove or insert? They call it a stove but only show a picture of it as an insert.


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## Rockey (Jan 22, 2009)

Woodford said:
			
		

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I will probably list it on Craigslist after the season is over. If your interested email me jeff@promotorservice.com


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## Todd (Jan 22, 2009)

TheFlame said:
			
		

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I was very honored to be in Tom's Cat vs non cat debate. He is very stubborn in his non cat ways. The thing that got me was he compared the Hearthstones independent lab efficiencies to the Woodstocks EPA default efficiencies. Not a fair apples to apples comparison. Woodstock fireview has tested at 80% efficiency with independent lab tests, 72% EPA.


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## jpl1nh (Jan 22, 2009)

daleeper said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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As stated here, really the ONLY basic difference between cat start up and non-cat is daleeper says, you have to lift the bypass lever.  And as Be Green says they can be polluted from burning stuff aside from reasonable dry untreated wood.  I quickly learned how to wait until the stove temp was hot enough and then lift the bypass arm (and no muscle strains from that yet  :cheese: ) and I really only tend to burn dry firewood anyway.  My cat costs about $30 per year considering my stove runs non stop from mid Oct to early May and I replace it about once every four years and it takes about 15 minutes to replace.  Because of the slow thorough burn the smaller firebox is not as much of an issue as it might be in a secondary stove.  All said, it is a matter of preference but you will seldom read a post from a disgruntled cat owner on this forum and I've never read one from a Woodstock owner except for Tom.


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## rickw (Jan 22, 2009)

I think the cat is actually much easier to run, as it requires much less frequent loading. Three times a day if its cold, twice a day if it isn't. No kindling, no lighting fires (well, once every 2 weeks to clean it out). Just throw wood in.  The house temperature isn't spiking and plunging; its just comfortable. After 5 weeks of continuous burn I've gone thru 1/2 cord.

What I'm NOT doing, that I USED to do:
Fiddling with the stove constantly.
Bringing in a huge pile of wood every other day.
Smoking the neighborhood trying to get the secondaries going.
No kindling, fatwood, matches.
No burned hands from trying to cram the firebox completely full.
And best - NO getting up to feed the stove, not once!


Current record for load interval - 18 hours. No kindling.

Works for me..


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## North of 60 (Jan 22, 2009)

Im with ya RickW


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## Diabel (Jan 22, 2009)

It is interesting how this comparison keeps resurfacing every year & in my opinion this is the first season where cat stoves get more positive comments!


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## Dustin (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm in the market for a new stove...I need to heat a 1700 square feet, poorly insulated split level house...


I was just thinking about maybe a cat stove...I wonder if the blaze king would cook me out of here. We rarley get below 20 degrees in the winter. We usually hang out at around 35


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## Highbeam (Jan 22, 2009)

Lots of BKs have been installed in the pacific NW. The beauty is the LOW and slow burning which will prevent you from being cooked out. A guy could seriously oversize a cat stove and be OK since you can actually turn it down. If you oversize a non-cat you will be cooked out since there is a minimum setting on these stoves that is hot.

The smaller princess BK would be fine and is a relatively decent looking stove. The woodstock is probably cheaper and is very attractive.


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## North of 60 (Jan 22, 2009)

D/F said:
			
		

> I'm in the market for a new stove...I need to heat a 1700 square feet, poorly insulated split level house...
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> I was just thinking about maybe a cat stove...I wonder if the blaze king would cook me out of here. We rarley get below 20 degrees in the winter. We usually hang out at around 35



All you have to do is dial the stove stat to low and it will put out a constant+- 9000 btus for many hours. It will take an hour or so for the stove to settle down as it will create a bit of extra smoke in the stove on the initial turn down which is extra fuel for the Cat to consume. If you can get a good 14 to16 hr burn with a window open then so be it. :coolsmile:


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## southland (Jan 22, 2009)

Rockey said:
			
		

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Both.  Many of the Buck stoves can be purchased as free standing or insert.


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## Dustin (Jan 22, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Lots of BKs have been installed in the pacific NW. The beauty is the LOW and slow burning which will prevent you from being cooked out. A guy could seriously oversize a cat stove and be OK since you can actually turn it down. If you oversize a non-cat you will be cooked out since there is a minimum setting on these stoves that is hot.
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> The smaller princess BK would be fine and is a relatively decent looking stove. The woodstock is probably cheaper and is very attractive.



I like the look of the woodstock, but I am a little worried about the small firebox. Will I be able to turn it down like a blaze king?


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## rickw (Jan 22, 2009)

The big advantage of the cat is to reduce (by about half) the temperature needed for combustion of volatiles (smoke, vapor, creosote). Its naturally great at a long slow burn. The Woodstock sort of digests wood over a long burn, flames are usually not visible once the cat's engaged and air set back (unless you want big heat, but thats not going to be a really long burn). I'd think a FV would work very well for you in the NW. How much better/longer would a tstat make it? Can't say. 

One thing not mentioned much is the maintenance needed by non-cats. Burn tubes, baffles, insulation. They can need attention also, and some are a groan to work on as the very high operating temps degrade fasteners.


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## bmwbj (Jan 22, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

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Wet1,  Your assumptions are true, I have an electronic cat probe in my Intrepid II and I have seen
cat temps as high as 2000 and the stove pipe just about 18" above the stove measures 400.
With the right conditions the cats go crazy hot and the stove and pipes do not.


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## mayhem (Jan 22, 2009)

FWIW I had a midsized Dutchwest Federal stove in my first house with a cat.  After two winters with it I just couldn't get it integrated into my life...it either ran cold and smouldery or the CAT lit and it took off like a freight train.  I found that particular stove to be very difficult to manage and it required constant fiddling on my part to even resemble a steady temperature.  In short, I hated it...too much effort to keep it running properly.  My current stove is a Morso 3660, whihc is non-CAT stove.  Runs much more smoothly and even my wife has no problem stuffing it with wood and shutting the primary air intake once it gets up to secondary burn. 

I cannot recall what my burn times were in the Dutchwest, but I cna get a solid 6-7 hours of high heat out of the Morso, upwards of 9 hours from a fully stuffed firebox down to just enough coals to ignite some dry wood in the morning.


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## Wet1 (Jan 22, 2009)

Rockey said:
			
		

> Southland said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting, I've never heard of Buck.  It appears the 91 is offered in both insert and stove, although I can't find a picture of the freestanding stove on their site (???). 
I wonder how the pricing on this stove compares to the BKK?  Honestly, the only real hesitation I'm having regarding the BKK is the high price for this steel stove.  I noticed Buck rates their 91 as 72% efficient where as BK states up to 82.5% for theirs, yet the Buck is rated at 1.2 G/H emissions and BK states 1.76 G/H emissions for their BKK.   The other big question in my mind is how much difference the "automatic thermostat" feature on the BKK makes, or is this just a marketing gimmick?  Although, I would think the thermostatic damper would work better for those unsupervised long burns.

Anyone have any thoughts on how these two stoves stack up???


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## Wet1 (Jan 22, 2009)

I found at least one pic of the free-standing Buck 91...
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14927/


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## Chettt (Jan 22, 2009)

A new Kitty stove should come with at least 5 replacement catalysts. Has there ever been a first year burner that didn't run out of dry wood and have to burn green wood or garbage? If they threw in the replacements an owner would be fine for 20 years even if the manufacturer goes out of business.


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## mellow (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm sure you guys have seen this video of a Blaze King in action before, but it does highlight very well the exhaust temp. when the Cat is engaged.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwNYI6ME7kA


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## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

rickw said:
			
		

> I think the cat is actually much easier to run, as it requires much less frequent loading. Three times a day if its cold, twice a day if it isn't. No kindling, no lighting fires (well, once every 2 weeks to clean it out). Just throw wood in.  The house temperature isn't spiking and plunging; its just comfortable. After 5 weeks of continuous burn I've gone thru 1/2 cord.
> 
> What I'm NOT doing, that I USED to do:
> Fiddling with the stove constantly.
> ...




Rick 
Do you have a pic of where the cat is on your stove??


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## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

mellow said:
			
		

> I'm sure you guys have seen this video of a Blaze King in action before, but it does highlight very well the exhaust temp. when the Cat is engaged.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwNYI6ME7kA




Thats a great video. I need a big stove for the cellar. i'm so confused about the non cat -- cat stoves :-S


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## Highbeam (Jan 22, 2009)

The woodstock website has a great slideshow on cleaning the cats on their stoves. The slideshow also serves to show everyone how they are assembled. The fireview cat is really easy to get to and clean. Almost seems too easy.

I have an email into woodstock about the possibility of a larger stove. Give me a break, their largest stove is 2.3 CF? Rated for 1600SF? This is America!


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## karri0n (Jan 22, 2009)

I do remember someone talking to a Woodstock rep and he quoted the rep as saying something to the effect of "We receive requests to produce a larger stove, but for every request we get, we get 3 people happy with our current selection. We do not have any plans for producing a larger stove at this time."

Since then, I believe it was in this thread that someone mentioned that they gave him a different answer to the effect of "we have one in the works"


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## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> The woodstock website has a great slideshow on cleaning the cats on their stoves. The slideshow also serves to show everyone how they are assembled. The fireview cat is really easy to get to and clean. Almost seems too easy.
> 
> I have an email into woodstock about the possibility of a larger stove. Give me a break, their largest stove is 2.3 CF? Rated for 1600SF? This is America!




Highbeam

Its the same size as my F400(i think) in BTU's 55,000. its got allot longer burn time then my F400. Is this because of the cat??


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## Wet1 (Jan 22, 2009)

I don't know if anyone else is interested in the big Buck mentioned above, but I called two dealers and the price on the model 91 (free standing stove, not the insert) is a lot cheaper than the BKK.  Both dealers I talked with said the Buck is built like a brick chit-house.  They said the stove is made out of very heavy steel and built to last.  Looking at the specs, it would appear the 91 is considerably heavier than the BKK, so I don't doubt what they say regarding the construction.  It also looks nicer, but that doesn't really matter much for my application.

I was pretty much set on the BKK, but given the significant price difference and similar specs, the 91 has peaked my interest.  Although, it would be nice to hear some details on this new larger Woodstock as well.  My only fears about this 'new' stove is that their idea of larger will be 2.8cf rather than 4+cf and it will be in production sometime around 2012, plus it will be an untested design... although I know they stand behind their stuff.

EDIT: Based on what Todd posted earlier, it doesn't sound like Woodstock will be building a larger stove anytime soon.


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## karri0n (Jan 22, 2009)

There's another post on the new woodstock, and it's no bigger, but a retrofit to the fireview to add a secondary burn system to make it some kind of secondary burn catalytic hybrid. Completely unconfirmed just like the ideas of a bigger one. Personally, I wouldn't hold my breath.


edit: if they did make a bigger one, I would imagine it will probably not be 4.0+, either.


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## Todd (Jan 22, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> Rockey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Buck is stating the EPA default efficiency for all cat stoves and BK is stating the independent lab test. I'm sure they are both about the same. I think BK would have the nod for me because of the auto thermostat, I think it is a great feature. 

Also look into Country Flame, they have a huge 4cu ft firebox cat and it actually looks better in person than the pictures.


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## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> I don't know if anyone else is interested in the big Buck mentioned above, but I called two dealers and the price on the model 91 (free standing stove, not the insert) is a lot cheaper than the BKK.  Both dealers I talked with said the Buck is built like a brick chit-house.  They said the stove is made out of very heavy steel and built to last.  Looking at the specs, it would appear the 91 is considerably heavier than the BKK, so I don't doubt what they say regarding the construction.  It also looks nicer, but that doesn't really matter much for my application.
> 
> I was pretty much set on the BKK, but given the significant price difference and similar specs, the 91 has peaked my interest.  Although, it would be nice to hear some details on this new larger Woodstock as well.  My only fears about this 'new' stove is that their idea of larger will be 2.8cf rather than 4+cf and it will be in production sometime around 2012, plus it will be an untested design... although I know they stand behind their stuff.
> 
> EDIT: Based on what Todd posted earlier, it doesn't sound like Woodstock will be building a larger stove anytime soon.




Wet 1

What was the price on the buck??


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## Todd (Jan 22, 2009)

johnnywarm said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, the cat stretches out those BTU's because it can be burned with less air and still maintain secondary combustion with lower temps in the firebox.


----------



## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

Yes, the cat stretches out those BTU's because it can be burned with less air and still maintain secondary combustion with lower temps in the firebox.[/quote]

Thanks todd.this is interesting.


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## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> I don't know if anyone else is interested in the big Buck mentioned above, but I called two dealers and the price on the model 91 (free standing stove, not the insert) is a lot cheaper than the BKK. Both dealers I talked with said the Buck is built like a brick chit-house. They said the stove is made out of very heavy steel and built to last. Looking at the specs, it would appear the 91 is considerably heavier than the BKK, so I don't doubt what they say regarding the construction. It also looks nicer, but that doesn't really matter much for my application.
> 
> I was pretty much set on the BKK, but given the significant price difference and similar specs, the 91 has peaked my interest. Although, it would be nice to hear some details on this new larger Woodstock as well. My only fears about this 'new' stove is that their idea of larger will be 2.8cf rather than 4+cf and it will be in production sometime around 2012, plus it will be an untested design... although I know they stand behind their stuff.
> 
> EDIT: Based on what Todd posted earlier, it doesn't sound like Woodstock will be building a larger stove anytime soon.



Are you talking about the model 80 buck??


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## Todd (Jan 22, 2009)

Chettt said:
			
		

> A new Kitty stove should come with at least 5 replacement catalysts. Has there ever been a first year burner that didn't run out of dry wood and have to burn green wood or garbage? If they threw in the replacements an owner would be fine for 20 years even if the manufacturer goes out of business.



I'm pretty sure all cats have at least a 6 year warrantee, where the 1st 3 years are free replacements and prorated after that. I had mine replaced free of charge after 1 year even though it was probably my fault. Cat technology is getting better. There are a couple stainless steel cats on the market that are resistant to thermo shock and lite off at 380 degrees instead of 500.


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## Wet1 (Jan 22, 2009)

johnnywarm said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Empty your PM box so I can send you a message...


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## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

[

Wet 1

What was the price on the buck??[/quote]
Empty your PM box so I can send you a message...[/quote]


Something is wrong with my pm.i'll get back to you.


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## mellow (Jan 22, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> There are a couple stainless steel cats on the market that are resistant to thermo shock and lite off at 380 degrees instead of 500.



Got any links for this?  I am planning to replace the cats I have in my stove next season, I don't know how old they are, got them used off ebay.

I am noticing however that with the cat in my stove right over the fire it is very easy to get it to light off, but 380F would save even more wood.


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## Highbeam (Jan 22, 2009)

What's the secret? Would be good for all of us to know the prices of all of these big cat stoves. The big BK, we know the woodstock price, the buck, the country flame. 

I'm not shy, I spent 2049$ on my heritage after tax. Current hearthstone prices are available on Tom's site. They were actually cut just recently.


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## Wet1 (Jan 22, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> What's the secret? Would be good for all of us to know the prices of all of these big cat stoves. The big BK, we know the woodstock price, the buck, the country flame.
> 
> I'm not shy, I spent 2049$ on my heritage after tax. Current hearthstone prices are available on Tom's site. They were actually cut just recently.


I didn't want to upset anyone by quoting prices over the forum (I don't know if that's a no-no or not).  The price I got on the BKK was around $3130, the 91 was $1850... as I said before, quite a difference.  The only thing I would really miss on the BKK is the thermostatic control.


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## Todd (Jan 22, 2009)

mellow said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.clearskiesunlimited.com/woodburningstoves.html

http://www.condar.com/


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## Highbeam (Jan 22, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks wet1. It really helps to put a figure to these stoves. Besides the thermostatic primary air the blower CFM is quite high on the BK compared to the 91 which doesn't specify. The countryflame was 600 CFM which is quite a lot. 

The buck has a very difficult to remove catalyst package and 3 cats. They describe all sorts of penetrating oil and extra care in the manual. Much harder than the woodstock. The stove is tapered front to back to make it a better insert I'd guess. Looks funny freestanding.

The BK look is growing on me.


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## TheFlame (Jan 22, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> mellow said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that site right?  Two combustors at $99 each required for a Woodstock Fireview?  Woodstock only gets $125 I thought...


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## mellow (Jan 22, 2009)

Thanks for the links todd, the pricing on the stovecombusors is very good, I will probably pick one up to give it a go next season.

Btw, check out this old Cat/Secondary Air hybrid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcBzJxbGJrg

Apparently they have been in existence for quite some time.


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## karri0n (Jan 22, 2009)

Ha, the first link from that vid=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR98Z4zvX8k&feature=channel_page


I wonder if the author of this video(b3gr33n) posts on this forum? 

side note: that's the most beautiful secondary combustion I've ever seen.


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2009)

Never heard of him!  :coolsmirk:


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## Todd (Jan 22, 2009)

TheFlame said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I tried emailing them about beating Woodstocks price and never received a reply.


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## johnnywarm (Jan 22, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Never heard of him! :coolsmirk:




I know lololololo Begreen i get secondaries just like in the vid on my f400.i must be doing something right.


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## semipro (Jan 23, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> Chettt said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As I remarked earlier in this thread my Jotul Firelight cat is still burning pretty clean after 9 years of very rough use including use of colored paper for starting, over-firing, and use of softwoods like pine. I keep waiting for it to start puffing smoke so I can spend $100 on a new converter but it just keeps going. I don't claim that its burning factory fresh but when the cat is lit its usually hard to tell by looking at what's coming out of the flue.


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## semipro (Jan 23, 2009)

Please ignore, duplicate post.


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## southland (Jan 23, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I changed the cat in my parents Buck 91 over Christmas (the cat was 8 yrs old).  It only has one cat unit, not three.   It's not hard at all.  You do need a deep socket in step 4.  Here are directions cut from the owner's manual.

http://www.buckstove.com/buckfiles/manuals/Buck-Stove-Model-91-Manual-(Rev-10102008).pdf

CATALYST REPLACEMENT (Off-Season Replacement Recommended)
1. Spread a drop cloth in front of the stove.
2. Open the door and clean out any ash.
3. Using penetrating oil, generously lubricate the eight (8) bolt threads holding the catalyst housing in place.
Allow oil to penetrate.
4. Using a 9/16" wrench or 9/16" socket, loosen the eight (8) nuts and remove the catalyst housing (drop down)
and place in a suitable work area. BE CAREFUL removing the 8 nuts. If you break the bolt, you will have to
drill out the bolt (difficult) and wait for your dealer to order one! You do not want this to happen during the
cold weather!
5. Using needle nose pliers, grasp the front edge of the stainless steel “cans” which houses the catalytic element
and pull upward. Reposition pliers to another position and pull upward. Repeat procedure until the catalyst
can be removed from the housing.
6. Using a small putty knife or scraper, remove any gasket that may have adhered to the catalyst housing.
7. Now, obtain the new catalysts and wrap the stainless steel “can” with interam gasket and tape ends together
using scotch tape or masking tape. IMPORTANT: BEFORE STARTING TO REPLACE CATALYST,
contact your dealer and order the INTERAM gasket and the CATALYST HOUSING Gasket. Gaskets not
covered under warranty. It may take your dealer several days to receive the gaskets.
8. Insert the new catalysts into the catalytic housing and push down until they are seated on the top of the
stainless steel wire mesh supports.
9. Reinstall the catalyst housing into the stove and secure in place with the bolts.
10. The stove is now ready for use.


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## rumme (Jan 23, 2009)

I can only comment that I just installed a napolean 1900p non cat , dual burn system. Ive had it running for 5 days/ nights now, and its burning my wood so completely, that I still dont have 1" of ash covering the entire bottom of the stove floor. Before I go to bed, I put 3  logs in it, about 12" long, and in the morning, its ready to refire as needed on the glowing coals. So far im very happy for the $1400 price tag.  I do not see me using my homes ineffcient electric heat pump to much in the future. If I save just $300 a yr in heating costs, the stove has payed for itself in less then 5 years and I dont have to worry about replacing cat converters.  

It looks like it may take a month of solid burning,  to create enough ash that mandates it to be  cleaned out of the stove.  I can live with that :}


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## North of 60 (Jan 23, 2009)

rumme said:
			
		

> I can only comment that I just installed a napolean 1900p non cat , dual burn system. Ive had it running for 5 days/ nights now, and its burning my wood so completely, that I still dont have 1" of ash covering the entire bottom of the stove floor. Before I go to bed, I put 3 logs in it, about 12" long, and in the morning, its ready to refire as needed on the glowing coals. So far im very happy for the $1400 price tag. I do not see me using my homes ineffcient electric heat pump to much in the future. If I save just $300 a yr in heating costs, the stove has payed for itself in less then 5 years and I dont have to worry about replacing cat converters.
> 
> It looks like it may take a month of solid burning, to create enough ash that mandates it to be cleaned out of the stove. I can live with that :}



Are you not the one that posted this thread my friend. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/33585/ What you expected, and are looking for is actually what a new CAT stove will do. It will shut the fire down to a smolder. Sounded like you had more worries than replacing a CAT in that thread. :roll:
N of 60


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## johnnywarm (Jan 23, 2009)

rumme said:
			
		

> I can only comment that I just installed a napolean 1900p non cat , dual burn system. Ive had it running for 5 days/ nights now, and its burning my wood so completely, that I still dont have 1" of ash covering the entire bottom of the stove floor. Before I go to bed, I put 3  logs in it, about 12" long, and in the morning, its ready to refire as needed on the glowing coals. So far im very happy for the $1400 price tag.  I do not see me using my homes ineffcient electric heat pump to much in the future. If I save just $300 a yr in heating costs, the stove has payed for itself in less then 5 years and I dont have to worry about replacing cat converters.
> 
> It looks like it may take a month of solid burning,  to create enough ash that mandates it to be  cleaned out of the stove.  I can live with that :}




Are you burning soft wood?


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## Wet1 (Jan 23, 2009)

Southland said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That doesn't sound all that bad if it only has to be done every 6-9 years, but what about routine cleanings?  I'm under the impression the cat(s) need to be brushed off every so often.


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## Highbeam (Jan 23, 2009)

Southland said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's way too difficult. Compare that to the woodstock: lift lid, lift out catalyst, put back. No tools, no breaking bolts, no penetrating oil, no warning not to do it in the cold weather, etc. 

Surprised that you only found one catalyst. The parts list called out three and the instructions called out the plural form of cans and catalysts in most places. But hey, you actually touched it so I believe you.

I even looked at the dutchwest cat since it is pretty large and those folks have a woodstockish looking cat setup. Though it is harder to get access to. 

All of these large cat stoves seem to want an 8" flue.


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## TheFlame (Jan 23, 2009)

The Fireview seems to be the ultimate in cat maintenance, does anybody know how bad the Keystone/Palladian is to maintain?  I do know you have to go through the flue exit to get the cat out of them, but that's about it.


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## Todd (Jan 23, 2009)

TheFlame said:
			
		

> The Fireview seems to be the ultimate in cat maintenance, does anybody know how bad the Keystone/Palladian is to maintain?  I do know you have to go through the flue exit to get the cat out of them, but that's about it.



You can remove it either from the top or rear, depends where you vent. Check this out.
http://www.woodstove.com/slideshow/KS-P Combustor clean/kspcombclean.html

Link won't work, go to woodstock site click on support and cat cleaning slide show.


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## mellow (Jan 23, 2009)

Doh, site cuts off percentage chars.

Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/catclean


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## rumme (Jan 23, 2009)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> rumme said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




umm..according to another poster, the epa approved woodstove are not made to allow them to shut down quickly....via using the air intake adjustment...


furthermore, i am discussing, in this thread ,how completely my stove is burning the wood I am using....not about shutting it down....


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## rumme (Jan 23, 2009)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> rumme said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this moderator seems to disagree with you...heres their post on another thread..

If the flames could be completely stopped they would never be able to pass the EPA emissions test and therefore they could not sell the stoves. During the EPA testing the primary air control has to be closed completely down without smoldering the wood load. 

 Signature 
Yeah, I know that wood stoves 
...


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## rumme (Jan 23, 2009)

johnnywarm said:
			
		

> rumme said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




nope...red cedar { aged for 8 years or more} ..

ash and oak....aged for 1 year or more...


my napolean is burning this wood so completely, that I am amazed by it. It is 65 degrees here today, so I totally shut this stove down for the first time in more then 5 days/ nights and I barely got 1 " of fine ash ....I wont even emtpy that since the manual recoomends 1 " of ash to be left inside the stove


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## johnnywarm (Jan 23, 2009)

[
Are you burning soft wood?[/quote]


nope...red cedar { aged for 8 years or more} ..

ash and oak....aged for 1 year or more...


my napolean is burning this wood so completely, that I am amazed by it. It is 65 degrees here today, so I totally shut this stove down for the first time in more then 5 days/ nights and I barely got 1 " of fine ash ....I wont even emtpy that since the manual recoomends 1 " of ash to be left inside the stove[/quote]


My f400 burns the way your stove is if the wood is seasoned properly.


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## bluefrier (Jan 23, 2009)

rumme said:
			
		

> north of 60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rumme,  that moderator was commenting on a non-cat epa stove.  A CAT stove will burn the smoke from a smoldering fire.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 23, 2009)

bluefrier said:
			
		

> Rumme,  that moderator was commenting on a non-cat epa stove.  A CAT stove will burn the smoke from a smoldering fire.



Any cat you find in a Napoleon stove will probably have four legs and a tail. Nap doesn't make cat stoves.


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## rumme (Jan 23, 2009)

so this means that epa approved cat woodstoves  allow the owner the ability to totally shut down the flames within a few minutes...via the air intake adjustment ...while epa approved double burn non cat stoves will not allow the user to totally shut down the flames at all via the same air intake adjustment ?


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## karri0n (Jan 23, 2009)

rumme said:
			
		

> so this means that epa approved cat woodstoves  allow the owner the ability to totally shut down the flames within a few minutes...via the air intake adjustment ...while epa approved double burn non cat stoves will not allow the user to totally shut down the flames at all via the same air intake adjustment ?



Precisely.

Although, I don't know that you would be able to COMPLETELY 100% shut it down as in "turn it off", but it will bank down much much more than a non cat epa stove.


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## rumme (Jan 23, 2009)

thanks for the info...I was not aware of this.


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## savageactor7 (Jan 23, 2009)

Boy I sure wish some CAT owner could steer this thread to those that may want to run a CAT stove for max heat output and how often you would reload if say you wanted to keep a 3k area at 75 when it's 20 outside. Thanks brothers.

Also will it damage to CAT to continually run for max  heat?


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## mellow (Jan 23, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Also will it damage to CAT to continually run for max  heat?



No.  

CAT's and Secondary Air are different ways of burning the excess gas from wood, so its hard to compare the two.  Each has their pluses and minuses.  I Personally love my Cat stove, but then again I have only had it for 3 days.  Once you light off the Cat your good to go until your next reload, pretty simple.  Plus if your running right you damper your stove down to the point you don't even see flames, just a nice glowing cat hard at work.


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## savageactor7 (Jan 23, 2009)

^no so good to go if you have a wife that wears sweaters in July but thanks for the skinny. I require heat and wood is no object.

Which gets hotter a blaze king or NC30...right now we have a qf4300...it's adequate.


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## Wet1 (Jan 23, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Boy I sure wish some CAT owner could steer this thread to those that may want to run a CAT stove for max heat output and how often you would reload if say you wanted to keep a 3k area at 75 when it's 20 outside. Thanks brothers.
> 
> Also will it damage to CAT to continually run for max  heat?


I'm not sure how much more of a user testimonial you need.  I'm sure you saw Wolfkiller's thread about his BKK keeping his 2500 sq ft place warm in North Pole Alaska down to -44° F before his central heat kicked in.  In fact, it seems the majority of the folks way up north are using the BK and swear by these stoves.  If you need more heat than the BKK will throw, you better think long and hard about getting yourself two stoves...  As a mater of fact, with 3000 sq ft, you should consider two of the Woodstocks as I suspect two stoves would give better heat distribution.


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## savageactor7 (Jan 23, 2009)

Well Wet1 it was wolfkillers post that got me interested again in CATS. I don't know how close you're following this but I addressed that. The trouble is wolfkiller likes long burns my wife requires heat there's a big difference in burning techniques. Thanks for the heads up though.


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## Highbeam (Jan 24, 2009)

Blaze king:

King 1107
Average EPA Test Fuel (Low Burn)
8,600 Btu’s/hr
Average EPA Test Fuel (High Burn)
37,800 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (Low Burn)
8,400 Btu’s/hr
Average Real World Btu’s (High Burn)
47,000 Btu’s/hr

ENglander 30:

Potential of 75,000+ BTU's* when burning seasoned cordwood!

So your wife will like the englander better. You can buy 4-5 englander 30s for the price of one BK.


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## Todd (Jan 24, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Blaze king:
> 
> King 1107
> Average EPA Test Fuel (Low Burn)
> ...



But you missed the part of the manual that states the BK can produce up to 90,000 BTU's when feeding the stove continuously on high burn. And in order for the Englander to produce 75,000 it would have to be burned the same way.


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## Todd (Jan 24, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Boy I sure wish some CAT owner could steer this thread to those that may want to run a CAT stove for max heat output and how often you would reload if say you wanted to keep a 3k area at 75 when it's 20 outside. Thanks brothers.
> 
> Also will it damage to CAT to continually run for max  heat?



Well, I don't have 3000 sq ft but when I need more heat I just turn up the air and reload more often. In the spring/fall season I go for the long 12 low BTU fire, when it gets below zero I give more air and cut the burn time in half or maybe just keep the temp over 400 and add 2 or 3 splits to maintain every few hours. Average winter temps I burn on an 8hr reload schedule, it all depends on the weather and how much heat you want. 

The cat does have limits, I think sustained temps over 1700 can cause damage, but that would be hard to do on my stove.


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## Rockey (Jan 24, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> The trouble is wolfkiller likes long burns my wife requires heat


 How do you keep 2500 sq ft warm in -44 deg weather without producing MAJOR heat?


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## North of 60 (Jan 24, 2009)

r said:
			
		

> north of 60 said:
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UMMMMM this thread is about CATs and secondary burn tubes. You were commenting about the fuss with CATs. I threw you a hint,
not subtle mind you. I threw you one also in your thread. I think someone has found and explained that hint to you now as I have read the posts.


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## Highbeam (Jan 24, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
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I saw the 90,000 in one part of the brochure but it has an asterisk and refers you to the specs where the actual specifications list what I cut and pasted for the BK. Seems to me that if you heat up a stove as big as the BK king that you should be getting major btus but it looks like you can't heat it up. Very strange marketing brochure. 

I think the PE summit has a 97000 max btu rating out of a firebox about the same size as the englander 30. I wonder how accurate these max btu ratings really are. I don't think I would want to depend on the max anyway, I know I wouldn't.


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## southland (Jan 24, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Southland said:
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Attached is an image of the cat from Applied Ceramics web site.  While it's one unit, it does have three cells, probably for ease of manufacturing.

Since the model 91 can be used as an insert, removal of the cat from inside the firebox is probably the best design.

I wonder what size a stove has to be to require an 8" instead of 6" flue?


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## North of 60 (Jan 24, 2009)

3yr old cat burning 8 to 10 months a year. Pine, spruce and poplar is its only food. It gets a paint brush and vacuum run across it twice a year after lifting out the stainless flame shield that takes 10 seconds. It also has three sections but it is actually one piece.


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## kksalm (Jan 24, 2009)

Wow. This has been very interesting to read. Totally engaging topic with super input. Is it me or does anyone else wish no one would encapsulate in a bluish tinge what has been said before like I hadn't just read it and was incapable of following the thread? These 5 plus pages would be about three and I would have had time to read something else by now. Sorry if I've offended anyone, it's not my intention, it's Friday night, have a great wood warming weekend.
Best regards, kksalm


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## johnnywarm (Jan 24, 2009)

It seems no one likes the 8" on some of the stoves.i'm looking into a cat stove for the cellar,it would be a new install. should i care if its 8" stove or a 6" stove.is 8" pipe better then 6"???


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## Wet1 (Jan 24, 2009)

Johnny, I think the reason is because a lot of us already have a 6" liner in our flue. Since you're going to be doing a new install, it's not much of an issue for you.  Technically speaking, you shouldn't use a 6" flue if the stove has an 8" collar, unless it's stated okay to do so by the manufacturer.  With that said, Wolfkiller mentioned he has a friend running a 6" flue with his BKK and it's working well... although it's not approved to do this.


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## Wet1 (Jan 24, 2009)

Rockey said:
			
		

> savageactor7 said:
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I would have thought this should have been quite obvious as well...

I fail to see how a stove like the BKK can't put out as much, or more btu/hour than the significantly smaller nc-30.  Even if they put out even amounts of heat, the larger Bkk should be able to go longer without reloading, should use less fuel, and since it has a thermostatic control, it should require fewer adjustments.


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## johnnywarm (Jan 24, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> Johnny, I think the reason is because a lot of us already have a 6" liner in our flue. Since you're going to be doing a new install, it's not much of an issue for you.  Technically speaking, you shouldn't use a 6" flue if the stove has an 8" collar, unless it's stated okay to do so by the manufacturer.  With that said, Wolfkiller mentioned he has a friend running a 6" flue with his BKK and it's working well... although it's not approved to do this.




Thanks Wet!


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## savageactor7 (Jan 24, 2009)

Just want to thank everyone that answered my specific questions...I sure do like this thread where we can discuss the merits of the 2 different tech's ... it sure is informative.


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## begreen (Jan 24, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> rumme said:
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To my knowledge, closing the air supply on a Cat stove will not "totally" cut off the air supply.


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## karri0n (Jan 24, 2009)

Thanks BG. That was what i was thinking as well. I don't think the cat would be able to light off in a 100% oxygen starved environment.


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## Todd (Jan 24, 2009)

I know on my stove the air slide will completely shut, but I'm sure air could probably seep in around it, it's not like it has an air tight gasket.


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## bsruther (Jan 25, 2009)

Do any cat stove owners find that building N/S fires is not necessary because of the long burn times? The reason I ask this is, my non-EPA insert burns hot and clean with a N/S fire, but my stove is only 15" deep, which means that some of my wood has to be cut short. Some of the cat stoves aren't very deep, so I just wondered if it made a difference, since cat stoves seem like they don't need a hot burning fire.


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## Todd (Jan 25, 2009)

I think it makes a difference. If you load N/S in a cat you will still get more air flow through the wood and a hotter burn, loading E/W will keep the air towards the front til it burns through the load.


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