# Having foam blown into walls



## EatenByLimestone (Feb 28, 2014)

I was talking this over with the wife and finally it came down to cost, which I have no idea on.  

If I remember correctly, a few have had it done to their houses.  Around how much did it cost and are you satisfied with the results?  Would you do it again or go with a different product like cellulose?

Thankya,

Matt


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## woodgeek (Feb 28, 2014)

If I had empty wall cavities, I would do densepack cellulose: cheapest, effective and no outgassing concerns.


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## GENECOP (Feb 28, 2014)

I used ICYNENE foam installed in several areas of my house, it is the tightest most appropriate insulation for odd shaped, barrel, cathedral ceilings, etc...not inexpensive but worth it IMO....The only drawback is future wire pulls, pipes, any changes after the fact are difficult to execute after the foam sets up.....


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## DBoon (Feb 28, 2014)

If you have uninsulated walls, getting insulation blown-in will add a huge amount of comfort to your house, and you will wonder why it took you so long to get it done.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 28, 2014)

Most of my walls are empty, but in some spots I had some vermiculite that had fallen out the bottom of the wall and was topped with cellulose.  Other spots have fiberglass.  It's a bit of a hodgepodge.


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## sloeffle (Mar 1, 2014)

I had the soy based open cell foam sprayed in my 2 x 6 exterior walls when I put my addition on my house. He sprayed closed cell foam around my rim joist and I do not smell any outgassing to this day. The cost of doing cellulose was about the same and I was concerned about settling over time. I am very happy with the performance of it compared to the rest ( batt insulation ) of my house.

If I were to build a house today I would use foam insulation again.


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## peakbagger (Mar 1, 2014)

I have friends who did it many years ago on an ancient farmhouse. They heat with very little wood a year and it stiffened up the structure considerably. They have done a lot of renovations since then and have never seen any traces of issues when removing the interior walls except that the foam makes things more difficult.

The issue with offgassing is strictly related to the firm doing the work and the level of training. There are two chemicals that need to be mixed in the correct proportions and at the correct temps, if that is not done offgassing can occur. With the older systems. one component was less expensive then the other so a contractor would cut corners by using more of the cheap component.T his caused bigger bubbles and more coverage but also outgassing. Most firms requires licensed contractors with training.

Next house I would go the flash and bat method but for an older home without access to the wall cavities I would go foam.


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## woodgeek (Mar 1, 2014)

Certainly the foam guys dis the cellulose guys and vice versa.  I am a humble homeowner.  Decades ago lots of foamed walls emitted carcinogenic formaldehyde, and low density cellulose walls settled a bit. Now both of these problems are solved.  

Densepack cellulose doesn't settle.  Worst case scenario is it does, and your energy consumption goes up 5-10% decades from now.  

With foam, the formulations are still obscure...the names of the formulations and their suppliers seem to change every few years, old formulations get vilified, banned and replaced.  It is frankly really hard to tell what is what.  Even the soy based foams and water blown foams...what % is petroleum derived?  Icynene seems to be the best in terms of formulations (there are several), but they charge cadillac prices.  I'm aok with a little PU can foam here or there, or outside my conditioned space (e.g. attic), but all the exterior walls of my house....I want to know what is in that stuff, and what comes out for years later (that doesn't smell).

And what is the worst case....your foam product gets mixed improperly and stinks like fish for months, doesn't set properly or shrinks inside the cavity (with loss of airsealing and insulation value), or the install goes perfectly but your brand gets declared toxic and banned 10 years from now, etc.

Never going to happen with cellulose.


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## peakbagger (Mar 1, 2014)

The reference to toxic formulations is primarily related as I discussed to bad application by crappy contractors. At one point EPA banned spray foam  until they could investigate the issues and when they did they came to the same conclusion, installed correctly there are no issues with properly applied foam.

Cellulose has had its issues, predominately settling and moisture issues where it absorbs moisture and encourages mold. I think it comes down any product misapplied or done shoddily can have issues.


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## woodgeek (Mar 1, 2014)

The Formaldehyde-Urea foams from the 70s remain banned by the EPA, but many other foams with very similar (and often undisclosed) formulations remain in use.  Try to find out exactly what is in icynene or 'tripolymer' and you will have a hard time. 

I am no chemo-phobe, and have worked routinely with teratogens and radioisotopes, and I think 98% of organic food is a crock.  But if I am going to pour hundreds of pounds of reactive organic compounds into the walls of my one and only house where I spend 5000 hours a year, chemicals whose slightly different formulations have been and are banned, and which can remain volatile in my walls for months or years if they are not mixed properly or react at the right temperature, well then, there I balk. 

Again, I would prob do my rim joists and sills with something that I researched carefully (and could always rip it out if absolutely necessary at a later date), just not every square foot of the exterior wall cavity.


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## sloeffle (Mar 2, 2014)

I asked the cellulose guy about about the settling and he said they add water and a chemical to it to help with settling. I asked what happened when the water evaporated out and he really didn't have an answer. The idea of spraying a wet insulation onto OSB also did not sit well with me either. The cellulose they were going to use is made out of recycled newspaper and I asked what it used as fire preventative and he said it was a proprietary chemical.

IMHO both cellulose and spray foam have good points and bad points. You just need to pick your poison.

Instead of selling the wool from my sheep maybe I need to market is as "organic chemical free insulation".


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## woodgeek (Mar 2, 2014)

To give cellulose the same roasting....

Your cellulose guy was not doing densepack (>3.5 lbs/cu ft), he was doing wet-spray, which is done at lower density (and is thus cheaper from a material point of view).  Densepack cavity fill is sprayed in dry, using a higher pressure than possible with big-box rental store machines.  My guy had a truck mounted (and powered) machine and 100' of hose.  There is no adhesive required to prevent settling.

http://www.energyoutwest.org/eow_li...chnique/Dense_Pack_Cellulose_Insulation.1.pdf

As for the chemicals...there does have to be a fire retardant and mold/pest inhibitor.  This is either ammonium sulfate or boric acid, typically 15-20% by weight (!!).  The other 80% is shredded newspaper, mostly post-consumer recycled.  There is a concern that either of these chemicals can be corrosive, and attack wiring or fasteners, but there are no reports of major consequences that I know of.  Both compounds are solids, don't vaporize, and are not particularly toxic. You can make a different assessment. Folks seem to be more comfortable with boric acid,  which is also less corrosive, so 'sulfate free' cellulose is available for a 10% upcharge.

After I had my rim cavities densepacked, there was a little gray dust around (I assume the installers vacuumed) and a slight 'ammonia' odor (I got a 50:50 mix of ammonium sulfate and boric acid).  I cleaned up the dust and the odor was gone after a couple days.

I still contend that I know what is in the cellulose, it isn't chemically reacting to create other compounds, and it isn't volatile.

I would not want to get either cellulose (and the acids) or sprayfoam wet.


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## laynes69 (Mar 2, 2014)

Our home had urea-formaydahyde foam injected in the walls in '79. From what I've seen when remodeling, I don't know if I trust foam. The foam has shrunk in every wall I've opened up. Some has remained solid, but some when touched turns to dust. From what my father said, if it wasn't mixed correctly it would produce all sorts of problems. My father and grandfather owned an insulation business with foaming walls with urea foam, but when it was banned, that was it. I know foam carries a nice r-value, but if I didn't have to open things up to insulate, I would choose dense packing cellulose. It's funny around here, very few people know of dense packing. Having foam in some of our walls still, requires us to open things up and remove it. I've ended up airsealing the walls and putting in R-19 batts of fiberglass in each room.


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## dja950 (Mar 2, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> Next house I would go the flash and bat method but for an older home without access to the wall cavities I would go foam.



Flash and Batt method can be dangerous in cold northern climates due to condensation and moisture issues.


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## peakbagger (Mar 3, 2014)

Flash and batt is not dangerous in cold climates if installed properly. The key is that the flash has to be thick enough so that the inner face of the foam is above the dewpoint temp in the coldest weather. Its back to the same issue with any insulation system, improperly installed insulation can be problematical no matter what it is.


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## dja950 (Mar 3, 2014)

peakbagger said:


> Flash and batt is not dangerous in cold climates if installed properly. The key is that the flash has to be thick enough so that the inner face of the foam is above the dewpoint temp in the coldest weather. Its back to the same issue with any insulation system, improperly installed insulation can be problematical no matter what it is.



Like I said it can be dangerous, I've seen the carnage from it not being done correctly. In my climate at least 2 inches is recommended.


If doing flash and batt, which can be a very economical way of insulating a house well, please please please make sure you do your homework and make sure you use the correct thickness of closed cell. Moisture and condensation problems in the walls behind drywall can go unnoticed for a long time and do  a lot of damage in the way of mold and many other things. Johns Manville, making of batts and bought corbond spray foam, recommends 2 to 2.5 inches of closed cell when doing flash and batt.


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## mellow (Mar 5, 2014)

Got a question, I have the old (1950's era) black cloth covered copper electric lines still in my walls, I have not blown anything into my walls because a few have said I need to upgrade to romex before doing so, is that true?


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## dja950 (Mar 5, 2014)

Knob and tube wiring needs to be replaced, yes.


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## mellow (Mar 5, 2014)

I don't have knob and tube,  this was after that.  Mine is cloth covered romex,  looks like this:


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 6, 2014)

I've always considered that stuff to be fine.  I have that in the family cabin that was installed in '52 and it is still in good shape.  When the walls are open I replace the 14g with 12g to make future upgrades easier, but if the walls are closed I don't worry about it.


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## Dave A. (Mar 6, 2014)

I have that.  And fiberglass batts were installed along with it when built. Pretty sure that's what romex was like in the 1950's and into the early 1960's.  Iirc the copper itself is covered with plastic.


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## woodgeek (Mar 6, 2014)

That what my 1960 romex looks like.  Ok, not burnt and crumbling.  I never gave it a second thought.


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## Dave A. (Mar 6, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Ok, not burnt and crumbling.



Guess I missed that.  Still not real clear about what's being shown.


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## mellow (Mar 7, 2014)

Mine isn't covered in plastic, it has the cloth wrap on the outside then cloth wrap with a paper around the wires,  they seem to be in good condition but I just don't like to move them to much as you can hear that crunching sound when you do so. Everyone I had talked to was saying that the chemicals in the spray insulation would eat the cloth romex.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 7, 2014)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I was talking this over with the wife and finally it came down to cost, which I have no idea on.
> 
> If I remember correctly, a few have had it done to their houses.  Around how much did it cost and are you satisfied with the results?  Would you do it again or go with a different product like cellulose?Thankya,
> Matt


I compared the cost of those do it yourself foam kits with blown in cellulose and the cost of the foam kits were astounding. Fibreglass is out ,lots of bad experiences with it,it shrinks,doesnt pack tight around outlets wires ect. Now board foam is another story,not a bad return there if you can use it,but for empty wall cavities blown cellulose is hard to beat. Been using it for 30 years now.


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 7, 2014)

I was talking to my neighbor today and she's having foam blown into her walls.  She's going to get me the guy's number so I can have him look at my place and give me a quote.  One has to start somewhere.


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## newbieinCT (Mar 11, 2014)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I was talking to my neighbor today and she's having foam blown into her walls.  She's going to get me the guy's number so I can have him look at my place and give me a quote.  One has to start somewhere.


 
I just moved from NY to CT - so I don't know about the energy rebates available, but you might want to look into it. In CT, it's called EnergizeCT. If you get an energy assessment done on the house (for <$100, they do a bunch of energy upgrades - such as air sealing, energy efficient lighting, door sweeps, etc -  and give you energy recommendation).  This qualified us for rebates of up to $1.00/sq ft on insualtion.  We were also able to finance it through our electric bill - so we are paying it back slowly over 5 years and a low interest rate. I have heard they have something similar in NY - you should definitely look into it. It was huge that we were able to insulate our house so soon after moving in.

As for insulation - we went with cellulose (blown in and dense pack - throughout the attics and exterior walls). We just purchased a 1894 farmhouse (with 1980s additions).  The cellulose was messier than blown in fiberglass, but after researching, it was absolutely worth it.  I'm not an expert, at all, but I did learn a few very important things I learned while researching all this (and believe me, I drove my husband nuts telling him all about what I learning online) are:

- ABC (Attic, Basement, Center). Insulate in that order. Most heat goes out the attic - so if your walls are insulated, who cares? The heat goes up and out the top.  The basement is usually full of holes and gaps - insulate the rim joists and other areas as best you can before moving to the center of the house. 

- Air Sealing is also key to effective insulation.  Doesn't matter how much insulation you have, if there is cold air coming in and warm air going out. 

- Dense packed foam in the walls will, most likely, stay right where it is. Just as someone said above, it takes a while to settle, if at all. I've seen photos of walls opened up after 20-25 years and the cellulose is right where it's supposed to be.  Dry Dense pack (not wet) is the way to go to avoid most moisture issues, especially in our area


Our experience w/ whole house insulation:

- I barely remember the beginning of January with the polar vortex. Even with the P61a running, we were SO COLD. Insulation install began end of Jan. -- and little by little, as they worked around the sides of the house, we got warmer and warmer. So far, a great investment.

- We had quotes for cellulose and foam. In the end we went with cellulose. Prices were similar but we were wary of the flamability of the foam along. We are actually in a bit of a "dispute" with our contractors now. We agreed on cellulose in the attics. We discussed blown in fiberglass but didn't ultimately decided on blown in (loose fill) cellulose.  Dustier clean up but better in the long run - less air flow through the loose fill cellulose than through the loose fill fiberglass.  Contractor insistes he put fiberglass up there - but I have photos and my eyes can see cellulose. He's confused but in the end, we got the best in the attic

- Walls had empty bays, some styrofoam in other bays and then the new addition (from 1980s) had fiberglass batts.  All exterior walls were "drill and fill" w/ dense pack cellulose.  We had old wiring, as well (not knob and tube). No issues installing over it. 

- Foam spray on rim joists and all over our stone foundation basement - it's made a bit improvement.

- "whole house air sealing" - well worth it b/c we didn't have the knowledge on how to get all the gaps and make sure we got everything

Overall, we are very happy with the results.  It's only been a few weeks and it has been getting much warmer outside, but there were quite a few days where there were single digit temps and we were inside with only a long sleeve tshirt on.  Much different than early January where we had ski caps, layers of socks and sweatshirts on. We were even able to see our breath while sitting on the couch!

Crazy few weeks...but so warm and cozy now :


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## velvetfoot (Mar 11, 2014)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I was talking to my neighbor today and she's having foam blown into her walls.  She's going to get me the guy's number so I can have him look at my place and give me a quote.  One has to start somewhere.


Maybe you can get a deal oi they did both houses at the same time,


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## BrotherBart (Mar 11, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I compared the cost of those do it yourself foam kits with blown in cellulose and the cost of the foam kits were astounding.



Try having 14 of them on the shelf and by the time I could get to it they just spewed out stinky liquid.


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## EatenByLimestone (Mar 16, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Maybe you can get a deal oi they did both houses at the same time,



That's what I'm hoping.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 7, 2014)

I just had the contractor come by and give me a quote.  He doesn't want to blow foam, and thinks that cellulose would be a better fit.  I should be getting a quote by email soon.  I'm surprised he didn't try to close me right there.


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## EatenByLimestone (Apr 8, 2014)

The quote is in!  $1584+tax.   That's a lot less than I thought it would be.


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## semipro (Apr 8, 2014)

Just curious.  Do the contractors verify that complete filling of the walls using an IR camera or some other method?
From what I've read it may be hard to fill walls without leaving voids depending on how the walls are constructed.
Building Science article on this: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-043-dont-be-dense
Nice graphic showing IR scan at this site: http://www.insulwise.com/insulation/walls/


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 8, 2014)

EatenByLimestone said:


> The quote is in!  $1584+tax.   That's a lot less than I thought it would be.


I do my own. Used to cost me about $250 for a small home for materials. now its around $500. Still a good investment. 
Got to know what your doing. IF you dont get a good  machine or you dont know how to run it  you wont get enough pressure and the cellulose will settle.


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## woodgeek (Apr 9, 2014)

Impressive Randy, but I would never do it DIY.  Apparently there is a BIG operator skill factor....you are essentially filling a complex three dimensional space, blind, by the 'feel' of a big vibrating hose and your imagination.  Folks who have done it for a while can do some amazing fill jobs.

I would ask about how long the guy has done densepack.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Impressive Randy, but I would never do it DIY.  Apparently there is a BIG operator skill factor....you are essentially filling a complex three dimensional space, blind, by the 'feel' of a big vibrating hose and your imagination.  Folks who have done it for a while can do some amazing fill jobs.
> 
> I would ask about how long the guy has done densepack.


Iv been doing my own rehabs for about 25 years. First few jobs were not great. Id say almost just about anyone could do an attic crawl space ,but  filling the walls takes some know how and experience and good equipment.


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## moey (Apr 9, 2014)

Did you price out what it would cost for you to do it? Im having my ceiling done between my garage and a bonus room. I really only would have saved about 10% doing it myself. Im sure I would have screwed it up as well not that the contractor cant screw it up.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2014)

moey said:


> Did you price out what it would cost for you to do it? Im having my ceiling done between my garage and a bonus room. I really only would have saved about 10% doing it myself. Im sure I would have screwed it up as well not that the contractor cant screw it up.


Around here contractors were charging $1500 to do it when the materials were about $250 .So thats a lot more than 10% markup. Dont know what they want now, but iv seen some of their work and i do a much better job myself. Its one of those things where mistakes and half measures are not at all obvious to the homeowner.


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## nick123 (Apr 9, 2014)

Randy I have been looking at doing blown in cellulose little by little myself, but can't find anywhere to rent a decent machine. Where do you rent yours from?

Thanks..nick


Seasoned Oak said:


> I do my own. Used to cost me about $250 for a small home for materials. now its around $500. Still a good investment.
> Got to know what your doing. IF you dont get a good  machine or you dont know how to run it  you wont get enough pressure and the cellulose will settle.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2014)

nick123 said:


> Randy I have been looking at doing blown in cellulose little by little myself, but can't find anywhere to rent a decent machine. Where do you rent yours from?
> 
> Thanks..nick


EIther my local ACE hardware store or Home Depot or lowes.
Just make sure the machine is in good condition and is working poroperly. YOU need to pack wall cavities tight to ensure when the cellulose relaxes over time it does not settle. Also i use a 2-2.5" hole. Any small takes too long. You need a good deal of air along with a stream of insulation.


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## mellow (Apr 9, 2014)

I thought there was a special machine that the ones at the big box stores do not have enough pressure?


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2014)

IMPORTANT FOR DIYers TO NOTE

Last time i picked up the machine at my local ACE Store ,the air adjusting plate was missing. THe clerk said he hadnt seen that plate for over a year. Someone brought the machine back without it. I informed him the machine was useless for all but open attic applications and with out that air adjusting plate you could not regulate the amount of insulation going into the hose. This is crucial to blowing walls. The hose will block easily and gives no pressure this way. Walls will be only loosely pack and will settle up to a foot or more.
Apparently no one else noticed a problem and were renting the machine that way for over a year. THer will be a lot of settling in walls around here.
I proceeded to fabricate a new plate from a flat piece of steel 6"by 24" they had in the store. Fit perfectly.


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## mellow (Apr 9, 2014)

One for the memory bank.  Thanks.

I can't find a good picture of the rental blowers with the plate,  where is it usually located?


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2014)

mellow said:


> I thought there was a special machine that the ones at the big box stores do not have enough pressure?


The one at my local ace store has enough pressure as long as you regulate enough air into the mixture for walls. When the wall is full the hose will expand
and the machine will labor. YOU only need between 3-5 Lbs of pressure to pack a wall properly. My son used it one time without the air regulator plate and all his walls settled, some almost a foot.

THe best setting for this particular machine was about half air and half insulation.


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## woodgeek (Apr 9, 2014)

While I am sure Randy is doing a great job, I still think densepack is for pros with pro machines (that run at higher pressure than rentals), and the skill factor for avoiding holes, going around wires, etc.

For loose filling your attic with cellulose, its pretty easy and I am sure any machine would be fine.

IMO, two different animals.


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## jdp1152 (Apr 9, 2014)

Foam for roof decks.  Dense pack for walls unless you're doing new construction with staggered studs to prevent thermal bridging.  Dense pack and a good house wrap and sealed foundation cap are more than sufficient.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 9, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> While I am sure Randy is doing a great job, I still think densepack is for pros with pro machines (that run at higher pressure than rentals), and the skill factor for avoiding holes, going around wires, etc.
> For loose filling your attic with cellulose, its pretty easy and I am sure any machine would be fine.
> IMO, two different animals.


I agree WG, Walls are a different animal. In my case i was experimenting on rental houses i already own and not hiring out services.


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