# Back Plate yes or no, need your advice



## Squeaky_6 (Jan 15, 2015)

Hey Guys,

So I have a Country Comfort 300, FINALLY installing it this weekend...
Everyone on here thinks it needs and 8inch Liner, I only have 6inch and want to install that liner so when I get a different stove, chances are it will be 6inch and a simple install.

My Question: If I don't install a back plate at flue, would this help heat go up chimney and keep my gas temps hotter up high for a better draft, or am I way off base?

My thinking is install using 6inch liner, no back plate and the extra heat will help with draw, then when I buy a new stove, I can install back plate later.

The chimney is on back side of exterior wall that is connected to the garge, so it isn't complete exterior brick. I notice the draft up is way better because it seems warmer than at my house, where the chimney is completely exterior and gets cold. This stove will go in at my girlfriends house.

Any thoughts?

Thanks All!


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 15, 2015)

Also, I burned the stove in driveway to cure the paint and had a 6inch liner on it, seemed to work well, some smoke when I opened door to fast and I am hoping because it was outside on a windy day which did not help.


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2015)

By back-plate it sounds like you are referring to a key or stove pipe damper. If so, I would try running the stove without it. Be sure there are proper and  adequate clearances for the stove and the stovepipe.


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 15, 2015)

Sorry Begreen, I am not sure I had the correct name. I am talking about a piece of metal above the stove, covering the chimney opening and cut out around the liner, to keep heat from escaping up the chimney, with roxul on top of the metal to insulate. I have read other threads about these on the site but can't remember the correct name.

I was thinking if I didnt have this, heat would go up chimney but help keep the flue gases hotter for better draft.

What you think worth it or not?


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2015)

Ah, you mean a block-off plate. For sure do that. It will make a notable improvement in retaining stove heat in the house. Insulating the liner is the way to keep the flue gases hotter.


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## bholler (Jan 15, 2015)

Is the liner insulated if so there is no reason to want extra heat up there if not it should be


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 15, 2015)

Liner is not insulated right now, I haven't installed it yet. I was kinda hoping to not insulate it since it is basically an interior chimney... I understand that is not code, but it seems to be a back and forth topic on the site so was going to try it without and could always install one if need for the draw out the liner.


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## bholler (Jan 16, 2015)

On an interior chimney it is as much about safety and making sure your house doesn't burn down as it is about performance.  There is a reason code requires it just do it right the first time


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 16, 2015)

Agreed... How does insulation prevent a fire? It seems weird to me the insulation prevents fire in a non combustible masonry chimney and flue.

In the old days they let stoves just go up your existing chimney and flue with no liner right? That doesn't even seem dangerous, since everything is non combustible and a fire place works without a liner. 

Do stoves produce much more heat so they require the liner and insulation?


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## begreen (Jan 16, 2015)

Can we get a clarification on the code? My understanding is that single-wall liner is ok if the interior chimney has 2" clearance from wood. Is that correct?


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## bholler (Jan 16, 2015)

begreen said:


> Can we get a clarification on the code? My understanding is that single-wall liner is ok if the interior chimney has 2" clearance from wood. Is that correct?


Yes it is sorry bg i should have added that but the chances of having that are very slim but you are right


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## begreen (Jan 16, 2015)

FWIW, our old furnace flue was built that way. I know because I removed it. The fireplace chimney however had direct contact with wood from remodels. That is history also.


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## bholler (Jan 16, 2015)

Squeaky_6 said:


> Agreed... How does insulation prevent a fire? It seems weird to me the insulation prevents fire in a non combustible masonry chimney and flue.
> In the old days they let stoves just go up your existing chimney and flue with no liner right? That doesn't even seem dangerous, since everything is non combustible and a fire place works without a liner.
> Do stoves produce much more heat so they require the liner and insulation?


They found that without the required clearance from the outside of the masonry which is 1" for exterior and 2" for interior that there can be enough heat transfered through the masonry to set the combustibles on fire.  So without those clearances a clay lined chimney is not to code and when you put a liner in you need to insulate it


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## bholler (Jan 16, 2015)

begreen said:


> FWIW, our old furnace flue was built that way. I know because I removed it.


I have seen a few that were done right but the vast majority are not


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 18, 2015)

Bholler, thanks for info, I guess it just boggles my mind that you have a fireplace and it's ok, but with a stove it changes things. Thanks for all the replies!


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## bholler (Jan 19, 2015)

Squeaky_6 said:


> Bholler, thanks for info, I guess it just boggles my mind that you have a fireplace and it's ok, but with a stove it changes things. Thanks for all the replies!


Really with out those clearances it was not ok as an open fp either but no one was checking it but when you change it you need to bring it up to code.  And besides the increase in performance will be enough to make it worth the extra money


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 19, 2015)

Update Guys:
I measured and a 6inch liner plus insulation will not fit! I bought the insulation and plan to insulate my liner. Now looking at the idea of breaking up the clay flue tiles to make room...To say the least the girlfriend is not happy since "The fireplace worked just fine!" I am trying to sell her on the benefits of an actual stove, especially since I cut, stack and split all the wood, but I am losing hope here guys!

Anyone ever have a clay liner broke out and remember what it cost? I got a absolute low end estimate of 1200 just for break out, that seems super spendy to me.

Anyone ever break out their old liner and have a positive or horror story to share?

Thanks again all!


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 19, 2015)

also, anyone have to cut part of a metal damper out to make room for their liner? That looks like something I will have to do also. Maybe just try an oval liner? Would still be cheaper than a break out of my clay tiles..


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2015)

What is the chimney tile inside dimension?

Yes, many have cut a notch in the damper to clear the liner.


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 19, 2015)

6.5x11 approximate


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## BrotherBart (Jan 19, 2015)

Go up in the attic and see if the dang chimney is closer than 2" to combustibles. If it isn't, put the single wall liner in the thing. Wreck her chimney and you are not gonna have a happy GF. Or a GF at all.


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## bholler (Jan 19, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> Go up in the attic and see if the dang chimney is closer than 2" to combustibles. If it isn't, put the single wall liner in the thing. Wreck her chimney and you are not gonna have a happy GF. Or a GF at all.


It is not just the attic it is the entire length of the chimney you need to worry about but the attic is a good place to start.  How many chimneys have you seen wit hthe proper clearance bart?  And why are you always so against breaking out liners There are allot of times it is the right thing to do.  There are also many times that it is not necessary or feasible.  Another option would be to ovalize the liner.  But i have said it many times and discussed it wit hthe op in private messages but i dont feel break out is a diy job there are allot of things that can go wrong if you dont know what you are doing.


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 19, 2015)

Chimney is on exterior wall but in an attached garage. I will try to get some pics posted. I will check in attic also and just see what is going on. House was built in 1969, if that helps for what code was back then.

I like the idea of busting out liner and installing my insulated stainless steel rather than buying all new liner and parts.

Appreciate the help!


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## bholler (Jan 20, 2015)

No need to buy all new just find some one with an ovalizer


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## BrotherBart (Jan 20, 2015)

bholler said:


> And why are you always so against breaking out liners



Serious consideration needs to be given before you go having somebody spend $1,200 knocking the tiles out of the chimney of a fireplace they like just fine as is and you don't own the house. As well as the impact if they later want to sell the house with a now non-workable fireplace.


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## Fsappo (Jan 20, 2015)

bholler said:


> No need to buy all new just find some one with an ovalizer



2nd.  Ovalize and insulate.  I'll bet BGs pension that you don't have the 2" clearance.  I just went thru researching this with some help here.  Also, tile removing can be insanely easy or a terrible job.  It all depends on how tight to the blocks the tile is.  I have literally removed 20' of tile in an hour or so and I have spent hours trying to get the first tile out.

There is a thing called a tile smasher, or I call it that, it hooks to a drill.  If you lower it down and spin it slow and start hearing a hollow sound from the tile when they are hit, your probably in good shape.  If it sounds like a dull thud, you may be in trouble.

Crap, even without an ovalizer, you can, with some patience and a 2x8 ovalize that liner yourself.


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## bholler (Jan 20, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> Serious consideration needs to be given before you go having somebody spend $1,200 knocking the tiles out of the chimney of a fireplace they like just fine as is and you don't own the house. As well as the impact if they later want to sell the house with a now non-workable fireplace.


I agree it is not always the right option but many times it is and $1200 is an awful lot for break out as well.


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## bholler (Jan 20, 2015)

Fsappo said:


> Also, tile removing can be insanely easy or a terrible job. It all depends on how tight to the blocks the tile is. I have literally removed 20' of tile in an hour or so and I have spent hours trying to get the first tile out.


Yeah most of the time it is an hour or 2 but there are other times it is all day or more sometimes with cutting holes in the chimney ect


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 20, 2015)

Broke down and hired a pro to come out and look at it...based on what he says and what you guys think, going to formulate a plan of attack from there. Thank You all!


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## Fsappo (Jan 21, 2015)

I wouldn't just get a labor quote on tile removal.  The more "stuff" you have a pro do, better deal usually.  Did you see if this guy is CSIA or whatever the chimney sweep institute is called, certified?

Ask him how much to remove tile and drop the liner.  Shouldn't be more than $600-800 labor.


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## Fsappo (Jan 21, 2015)

bholler said:


> Yeah most of the time it is an hour or 2 but there are other times it is all day or more sometimes with cutting holes in the chimney ect



Do you actually go thru with those terrible removals or drop back and punt, looking for another option?


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## bholler (Jan 21, 2015)

Fsappo said:


> Do you actually go thru with those terrible removals or drop back and punt, looking for another option?


Many times once we start it we have to finish but occasionally we will change strategy


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 21, 2015)

I went up in the attic today and the chimney doesn't run thru the house, only exposed thru the garage as you can see in attached pictures.


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## bholler (Jan 21, 2015)

I see lots of wood in contact with the masonry it need insulated.


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## begreen (Jan 21, 2015)

Fsappo said:


> 2nd.  Ovalize and insulate.  I'll bet BGs pension that you don't have the 2" clearance.



Ha, I only wish I had a pension.


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## Fsappo (Jan 22, 2015)

Yeah, even if it doesn't make sense with that huge mass of masonry, you need to insulate the liner.


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## bholler (Jan 22, 2015)

Fsappo said:


> Yeah, even if it doesn't make sense with that huge mass of masonry, you need to insulate the liner.


I agree totally that there should be a thickness of masonry that it would be acceptable to not insulate but there is not so by code it need insulated.  And even if there was a minimum thickness requirement i don't know how you would ever be able to confirm you had that the whole way unless you saw it being built


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## Fsappo (Jan 22, 2015)

Right, I understand heat transfer thru solid objects, etc.  It would take very little testing to determine how much masonry was safe.  Could probably drill to test on site.


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## bholler (Jan 22, 2015)

Fsappo said:


> Could probably drill to test on site.


that could work didn't think of that but it doesn't matter much because the code is the code.  And regardless there is still the added performance factor so i still think it is always a good idea to insulate


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2015)

Code is important and a good safety guideline, but it's not gospel, nor sometimes the only practical option.


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## bholler (Jan 22, 2015)

begreen said:


> Code is important and a good safety guideline, but it's not gospel, nor sometimes the only practical option.


When it is my ass on the line if something goes wrong doing it by the book is the only way even if i think it is unnecessary.   There are some instances where you can work around the code and technically still comply but i rarely push it to far.  To me it just is not worth the risk either to our company or my customer..


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2015)

Code is good, but sometimes it's dated. For example, there is little risk to achieving a clearance reduction of less than 12" using an NFPA 211 wall shield with a modern stove, but the code wasn't written for this scenario, just for non-UL tested stoves. A proper ventilated wall shield is incredibly effective at heat reduction behind it . Some stove companies recognize this and make an exception in their manuals, but several don't. I'd like to see code updated for this scenario. It also needs to stop talking about asbestos millboard. One would be at greater risk by following the letter of the code than ignoring this anachronism. And then there is the code that is simply open to interpretation...


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## bholler (Jan 22, 2015)

begreen said:


> Code is good, but sometimes it's dated. For example, there is little risk to achieving a clearance reduction of less than 12" using an NFPA 211 wall shield with a modern stove, but the code wasn't written for this scenario, just for non-UL tested stoves. A proper ventilated wall shield is incredibly effective at heat reduction behind it . Some stove companies recognize this and make an exception in their manuals, but several don't. I'd like to see code updated for this scenario. It also needs to stop talking about asbestos millboard. One would be at greater risk by following the letter of the code than ignoring this anachronism. And then there is the code that is simply open to interpretation...


I totally agree with those points but as a pro i need to follow the codes whether i agree with them or not.  And yes there are lots of things that i feel should be rewritten but i am not in a position to do that so i have to follow the rules as they are set.   But no i will not use asbestos mill board and i cant believe they have not changed that yet


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2015)

Never discussed the fine points of code with an inspector and got an approved exception? I know I have.


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## bholler (Jan 22, 2015)

begreen said:


> Never discussed the fine points of code with an inspector and got an approved exception? I know I have.


yes i have but not with regards to chimneys that was for general construction.  The problem with that is at least in pa the inspector has no liability so it doesn't matter if something goes wrong the liability would fall on me anyway but i don't know how it is done elsewhere.  The other thing is in our area permits are not required for most installs so it is rare that we need inspections done.   We could do what ever we wanted and no one would know.  That is unless something went wrong and a fire or insurance investigator came in then we would be facing a lawsuit if it was not done to code.


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2015)

Understandable, I had similar concerns when I was building boats and why I had liability insurance. But sometimes one needs to use common sense and make the best judgement call.


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## bholler (Jan 22, 2015)

In my opinion common sense dictates following code when ever it is at all possible.


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 23, 2015)

going to  insulate it.I think if anything it will help with draw. I can't say thank you enough!


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## begreen (Jan 23, 2015)

It will will help the draft and should help keep the flue cleaner by keeping the flue warmer.


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## Squeaky_6 (Jan 29, 2015)

Just an update but I have been defeated Sad to say first project I had to punt on! With connections from oval to round I just could not get the clearance to get it attached. I am going to try and have a shop make a new connector for the stove in round so I can gain some room. I was using a Vermont castings piece and it is just way to tall! I am so mad right now!!


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