# Gasifier dilemma



## stupe (May 3, 2012)

I've been poking around this forum for about 5 years now and I'm about to pull the trigger on an indoor wood boiler.  I'm in the process of building a wood shed/boiler room addition off the back of my house so I need to make a boiler decision soon.  I have burned wood in a wood stove for the past 15 years (still burn through 1300 gallons of propane a year) so I'm no stranger to constantly feeding a wood stove but I read about everyone starting a fire every day to start their gasifiers.  I hate to sound lazy but throwing a few logs in the wood stove every few hours is much more appealing than having to start a fire every time I want my gasifier to run.  I understand the storage tank idea (which I plan to do) and why gasifiers like to run flat out all the time but does anyone keep their boilers running all the time by throwing a log on every once in a while or do you let it burn out every day?  I'm starting to think a pellet gasifier would be better suited for me then a wood gasifier just for the shear fact that I don't want to start a fire every day.  My wood stove currently runs from November to April and I let it go out maybe a dozen times.     Thoughts?


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## hobbyheater (May 4, 2012)

stupe said:


> I I understand the storage tank idea (which I plan to do) and why gasifiers like to run flat out all the time but does anyone keep their boilers running all the time by throwing a log on every once in a while or do you let it burn out every day? Thoughts?


 
For today's gasification systems, boiler and storage sizing gives the convenience of only having to load and fire once daily.
For myself, my heating with wood and hot water predates gasification and storage. Heat storage eliminated the problem of controlling combustion to match the varying heat loads of the home.
Eliminate standby smoldering and you will greatly reduce the amount of wood you will burn. With burning a gasification boiler all out, you also eliminate any possibility of a creosote fire!

Pictured is the inside of a gasification boiler's chimney after burning 2 1/2 cords of wood!

Our second boiler, which was not a gasification unit, was run first without storage; experienced a 40% drop in wood consumption when storage was added.The Jetstream boiler which replaced our second boiler again cut our wood comsumption in half .
I'm a believer in gasifiacation and storage!


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## JP11 (May 4, 2012)

Stupe

I've been running my Vigas like you mention.  More from my desire to "play around" with it than to gain peak efficiency.

I'm in year one.. so subpar wood is the issue.  I COULD load up the firebox and 8 times out of 10 it would be fine.  Instead.. I get a bed of coals going and throw on 4 or 5 sticks at a time (maybe a quarter the firebox).  I'm probably opening it up once an hour when I'm kicking around the house.

This way... I get to stir, check out how the nozzle is covered, and experiment.  I imagine that once my wood is better.. I could fill it and walk away if I wasn't going to be around the house. 

JP


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## Clarkbug (May 4, 2012)

Its really not too bad to have to start the fire every day.  My boiler shuts off the fan when the flue temps drop, so there is usually a bed of coals in there from the previous firing.  Sometimes they fire back up on their own when the fan is on, or other times I hit them with a propane torch for a few minutes, then load up and Im done. 

Ultimately its a lot of money to spend, so you should pick what fits best for you.  Do you have to pay for your firewood, or is it "free" to you?


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## stupe (May 4, 2012)

I would have to buy my wood which would cost about $1000 per year.  I could buy it in full length logs much cheaper of course but I'm past that stage of my life (plus I have a bad back).  

I was considering the Biomass 40 because they seem to be somewhat inexpensive right now but then I'm reading that folks are constantly "tweaking" the draft and fan speed to get the flame to burn optimally.  It's 2012 and we're still manually making adjustments?  I would think the controls are sophisticated enough to figure that out by now based on flue gas O2 or something.  Maybe I just have high expectations...

I really like the Varmebaronen but they seem pricey, but you probably get what you pay for.  Seems like a really nice unit.  A biomass type boiler seems to be the way to go because I really don't want to be locked into one type of fuel source.  

So you guys with 500 gallons of storage - do you find that one ~4 hour burn is enough to charge the whole tank or do you have to fire the boiler twice to heat it up sometimes on really cold nights? Just curious.  

Anyway, maybe I just need to come to grips with starting a fire once a day and quit whining about it.  I'm sure there's a learning curve to all this and I'll eventually figure it out.  Maybe once propane hits $5 a gallon it will light a fire under my ass and I'll get this thing installed.

Thanks for the advice.


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## JP11 (May 4, 2012)

stupe said:


> I was considering the Biomass 40 because they seem to be somewhat inexpensive right now but then I'm reading that folks are constantly "tweaking" the draft and fan speed to get the flame to burn optimally. It's 2012 and we're still manually making adjustments? I would think the controls are sophisticated enough to figure that out by now based on flue gas O2 or something. Maybe I just have high expectations....


 
You need a Lambda boiler.  All auto.  Varies fan and draft fans every few seconds.  Mine's a Vigas.  Happy as can be with mine.  It's charging my storage right now.

JP


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## muncybob (May 4, 2012)

I remember talking to a person with a Tarm boiler when I was just starting to look at wood heat and I asked him how much of a hassle is it to start a fire each day. His response was that he starts a fire once per season. I didn't relaize what he was talking about until we got our boiler. Excluding the shoulder season, we get a fire going  once and when the heating demand is high enough we never have to start another fire unless we had shut down the wood and changed to oil because we were gone for a few days. Just keep hot coals in there and add wood. After the "learning curve" you sorta know when it's time to get more wood onto the hot coals.

Now with storage, you'll be starting more fires since the boiler will be shut down frequently and you are relying on the storage for your heat. This is probably the best way to approach heating with a wood boiler...it's certainly a lot more convenient.

But, starting a fire for us is very simple. At first we were using paper and kindling with a few small splits then coming back after 15 minutes or so and loading up with larger splits....seemed like a lot of work to me. Now we throw in a few small splits with larger ones on top and I hit it with the Mapp gas torch for about 30 seconds or so and walk away...EZ-PZ!


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## Karl_northwind (May 4, 2012)

You could consider the Effecta Lambda boilers if you're going to do storage.  they have the additional feature of being able to attach one of their pellet burners on the side for heating capacity when you're away or unable to load wood.
they do have the automatic controls for the primary and secondary air.


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## mikefrommaine (May 4, 2012)

stupe said:


> I would have to buy my wood which would cost about $1000 per year.  I could buy it in full length logs much cheaper of course but I'm past that stage of my life (plus I have a bad back).
> 
> I was considering the Biomass 40 because they seem to be somewhat inexpensive right now but then I'm reading that folks are constantly "tweaking" the draft and fan speed to get the flame to burn optimally.  It's 2012 and we're still manually making adjustments?  I would think the controls are sophisticated enough to figure that out by now based on flue gas O2 or something.  Maybe I just have high expectations...
> 
> ...




You don't need to play with air settings on a non lambda boiler. Once you get them set initially you just leave them alone. It might take a few fires to get it right for your particular chimney/draft. I havent changed mine since the first few weeks of  running the boiler.

It's  a ford/Chevy debate as to wether or not the added cost and complexity is worth the small gain in efficency.


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## hobbyheater (May 4, 2012)

stupe said:


> I I'm reading that folks are constantly "tweaking" the draft and fan speed to get the flame to burn optimally. It's 2012 and we're still manually making adjustments? I would think the controls are sophisticated enough to figure that out by now based on flue gas O2 or something. Maybe I just have high expectations...
> 
> I


 
Refractory design of a boiler should also be a consideration. The Jetstream boiler's secondary burn nozzle (pictured) was easy to replace and is also easy to make.  When the nozzle disintegrated, only the nozzle needed to be replaced. In over thirty years of operation, refractory repairs have worked out to $30.00 per year.

The Vigas boiler for example:  http://www.ahona.com/Vigas/Vigas Manual Feb 2010.pdf   in section 14.3 shows this nozzle as easily replaceable and if necessary, easy to make andthe boiler can also come with the " lambda control ".


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## skfire (May 4, 2012)

After one year with the Froling FHG-L, I have t say the boiler is impressive.

Minimal maintenance and very easy.
In 532 hours of use, I cleaned the HX&turbs twice(did not have to..only thin fly ash), and took out very small amt of ash out of the lower camber.
In the heart of winter(what winter?) I cleaned it out maybe...every 3 weeks and it took about 10 minutes.

I light once a day(sometimes don't have to light it..the coals left are enough..even after 20hrs or so).
The whole process form loading to lighting and walking away takes about 10 minutes and I do not think about it until the next day. The wife started getting into it as well and by next year she will be running it. Very easy and basic operation, no adjustments or calibrations.

Overall my experience has been thumbs up all the way and I highly recommended it, but to each his own and variables aplenty.

Good luck in your selection and process.

Scott


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## woodsmaster (May 4, 2012)

I light a fire every day or two. It is very easy to do. With dry kindling and wood it only takes a few miniutes. The fans
also help get the fire going fast on my boiler. I havn't change the air settings for about a year now. It's nice not to have to be a slave to the stove 3 or 4 times a day. Just 5 min. once a day and no more messing with it.


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## Tennman (May 4, 2012)

"I was considering the Biomass 40 because they seem to be somewhat inexpensive right now but then I'm reading that folks are constantly "tweaking" the draft and fan speed to get the flame to burn optimally. It's 2012 and we're still manually making adjustments? I would think the controls are sophisticated enough to figure that out by now based on flue gas O2 or something. Maybe I just have high expectations..."

Yeah... you do! I went the Hyundai route (low cost) for my first boiler because I wasn't sure I could live with the lifestyle. You'd like a Mercedes but want to pay for a Hyundai..... Now that I know heating with wood is not only practical but actually enjoyable for me if I knew then what I know now I mighta bought a something fancier. But the fact is, on the "cost effective" end of the boiler spectrum the EKO and BioMass are outstanding for the money. If you know you'll be in it for the long term, heck yeah Froling.... if ya don't.... well it depends on how much money ya got laying around. Don't be biased by the posts of folks asking how to tune/run their boilers. This is where EVERYONE with these things comes to get em working. Isn't that why you're here? I'm totally happy now that I have dry wood and learned how to make her talk. But, doesn't mean I don't now lust after a Froling..... or what's that other cool boiler with brains.... Viagra??


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## Fred61 (May 4, 2012)

My take on heating with heating with gassers is totally different than yours. Seems that for you, lighting, tweaking, reloading,etc is a chore that you don't wan't to endure. In my case I'm simply awe struck every time I burn, that I'm burning a fuel that's as primitive as dirt and still have such good control. You want to burn a fuel that has been used since the beginning of time but you want to control it with a few keystrokes. You want all the controls available but you want the lowest price boiler. I light a new fire everyday and only burn for four hours and the unit gets shut down. It's little to sacrifice for what I'm getting for such little effort. FWIW, I haven't changed the settings in three years.


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## maple1 (May 4, 2012)

With my current boiler, I only have to light one fire from October to April.

I have to tend & feed it every two hours during the day, but never have to re-light it.

Man, I can't wait to get rid of this thing...


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## henfruit (May 4, 2012)

Tennman  you are getting your V' s mixed up Vigas =wood heat  Viagra = hard wood


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## stupe (May 4, 2012)

Fred61 said:


> My take on heating with heating with gassers is totally different than yours. Seems that for you, lighting, tweaking, reloading,etc is a chore that you don't wan't to endure. In my case I'm simply awe struck every time I burn, that I'm burning a fuel that's as primitive as dirt and still have such good control. You want to burn a fuel that has been used since the beginning of time but you want to control it with a few keystrokes. You want all the controls available but you want the lowest price boiler. I light a new fire everyday and only burn for four hours and the unit gets shut down. It's little to sacrifice for what I'm getting for such little effort. FWIW, I haven't changed the settings in three years.


 
Maybe I just don't realize how easy it is to start a fire in a gasser, my only reference is a wood stove.  I just know I'm not lighting my wood stove with a propane torch.  So based on everyone's response I guess it's not a big deal.  Everyone I know with an outdoor wood boiler keeps them running non-stop so I guess I was a little shocked when I learned folks let their gassers go out after each fire.  I just need to get my head wrapped around that concept.

I'm not looking for the cheapest boiler with the best controls.  Maybe I said it wrong.  I just assumed they all had somewhat sophisticated controls.  I've worked for Honeywell for the past 15 years as a controls engineer so when I see a 60 year old 500 HP coal fired boiler get new O2 trim with microprocessor control I just assumed residential gasifiers had similar type controls.  Speaking of primitive - ever seen boiler operators light these big coal fired boilers with newspaper and kindling?!  I always get amazed by that.  Not very high-tech.

Anyway, I've learned a lot from this site and I appreciate everyone’s advice.  I'm sensitive to everyone's passion with dialing in their boilers and I didn't mean to offend anyone.  I'm a tinkerer too.


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## Tennman (May 4, 2012)

Thanks hen fruit. Geez u ever try to type yur handle from a iPhone. Any way I'm glad u got my joke. Good reply. Not all woodies are old station wagons. Any who stupe. You haven't upset anyone. I'm one of the gasification boiler users that doesn't start a new fire but maybe once every several weeks. Because I don't have storage yet. But next year I'll be doing the new fire thing because my boiler will finally be able to run flat out when I add storage this summer! Just get the new fancy Viagra boiler one of the guys above has, not much more money, great control and is good with soft wood. Sorry couldn't help myself.


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## Clarkbug (May 4, 2012)

Stupe,

If you have a bad back and dont want to deal with the wood that much, pellets are a nice option.  There are a number of boilers that will burn them (including the Varmebaronen if you buy the additional parts for it), and its got the nice constant level of heat.  Plus you usually dont need to get storage, which helps save on your first costs for sure. 

As others have said, you can pretty much go from having no controls to the full lambda (O2 feedback) controls setup, or anywhere in between.  Depends on what you would like to pay for, and what your level of hands on would like to be. 

Just think of gasifiers as a batch burn appliance.  You want to get all of the BTUs from the wood to the water as quickly as you can, and then use them from storage as you need them.  The outdoor boilers try to regulate the fire with an on/off mode of control, and so the fire should always be burning.

LG isnt too far away from me if you wanted to see one of the Varm's in person.  I know there is one person relatively close by to me who has a Tarm, and Im sure there are some others around in the area if you wanted to check them out.


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## TCaldwell (May 4, 2012)

Stupe,
 Consider that 90% of the batch fired wood boilers sold today in the usa are open loop with regards to combustion effiency and the controlls are designed to maintain water temps. The root cause is that fossil fuel costs are not high enough yet to support combustion controlls commonly used in other countries on gasification boilers, or for that matter industrial boilers here. As you already know throwing a few splits on a boiler that is close to temp and will soon be closing combustion air is of little value, wood needs to burn uninterupted close to it's stiometeric value of 7% o2 [ closed loop] with the excess btu's into storage to be efficient, this will yield a honest 82-85% net effiency with a 300deg flue temp. I am currently seeing these results on a daily basis with my o2 controlled garn boiler. Burning wood is a lifestyle, the 10 minutes a day I spend loading and lighting is something most of us look forward to. With your process control background a spare udc controller, you would be ahead of the curve.


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## kopeck (May 5, 2012)

Lighting my Tarm Solo Innova is very simple and the whole process takes me about 10 minutes.  The secrete, at least in my boiler, seems to be the newspaper.  Once I stopped skimping on it and used 3 to 4 full sheets (New York Times sized) I get a fire going every time, no problem.  Also, don't try and use the glossy stuff, it doesn't work worth a hoot.

You have to take into account where you live and your heat load when you talk about how often you have to light the boiler.  In the winter, for me it's twice a day.  Right now I'm lighting it once a day but that even varies.  If the sun is out and the temps climbing above 50 I can go longer, recently it's been rainy and cool so once a day does it.

The air settings haven't been touched on my boiler since I found something that works.  Maybe I'll have to play with them again when I startup next fall but it's not really a big deal.  Not discounting the Lambda boilers, a neighbor has a Froling and it's and impressive unit.

Something else to keep in mind is boiler design.  A lot of the forced draft boiler have issues with smoke pouring out the door when it's open.  My Tarm doesn't have this problem, the Frolings don't either.  I can't speak for the others out there but I've heard people complain about the EKOs and boilers similar to the EKOs.  A smokey basement sucks....

K


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## taxidermist (May 5, 2012)

stupe said:


> I would have to buy my wood which would cost about $1000 per year. I could buy it in full length logs much cheaper of course but I'm past that stage of my life (plus I have a bad back).
> 
> I was considering the Biomass 40 because they seem to be somewhat inexpensive right now but then I'm reading that folks are constantly "tweaking" the draft and fan speed to get the flame to burn optimally. It's 2012 and we're still manually making adjustments? I would think the controls are sophisticated enough to figure that out by now based on flue gas O2 or something. Maybe I just have high expectations...
> 
> ...


This is what made me buy one 4 years ago!


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## flyingcow (May 6, 2012)

Stupe,
keep asking questions, you're not offending anybody.

i have the same unit as Kopeck. 10 minutes is all it is, sometimes less. Throw in kindlin', 3 or 4 pieces of paper, light. Grab wheel barrow and fill it with wood. (My pallets are right outside the door) by the time I get back into boiler room the kindlin' is crackling. Throw in wood, all done. shut door and leave. I will refill the boiler if it's bitter cold out, but only as much wood as I think I need. i'm done for at least 24 hours. Have not tweaked my draft settings for 3 yrs? I burn all rock maple. beech. Seasoned well. Also, i use seasoned cedar for kindlin'

But, i have storage. If you don't have storage, once you get used to your heat loads I don't think you'll be starting from scratch every day. Storage for me is more of convenience than anything. It does help with efficiency some. But if i try to drive my tank to the top temps all the time, IMO, that wastes a little wood. Only time i drive my tank to the top temps is in mid January when it's really cold, but my heat load is pretty high too. I have a typical insulated house on top of a windy hill in northern Maine.

I would go with Lambda control type units. The only one offered when i bought was a Froling'. At that time it was almost twice the $$$'s as my Innova.

i went with a gasser because of cost of wood. I wanted to spend as little as I could for fuel. Yeah sure, i have to start a fire once a day in the middle of winter. Once every 2 or 3 days in the shoulder seasons. Once every 5 days for DHW in the summer. (but remember, i have storage). I am happy with the whole set up.

Plus figure I put all my wood on pallets and move around with FEL loader of tractor. Now thats being down right spoiled.


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## stupe (May 9, 2012)

Well...I spoke with Mark over at Ahona.  That guy can talk.  He's very passionate about wood boilers and he's a wealth of knowledge.  Great guy to talk to.

I appreciate everyone's honest opinion and I'm sure I'll have more questions as things move along.


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## JP11 (May 9, 2012)

stupe said:


> Well...I spoke with Mark over at Ahona. That guy can talk. He's very passionate about wood boilers and he's a wealth of knowledge. Great guy to talk to.
> 
> I appreciate everyone's honest opinion and I'm sure I'll have more questions as things move along.


 
Stupe.. They don't come any better.  HE is why I bought Vigas.   Conversations with him have gone much like this message board.  I go back and re-read threads now and SO MUCH more sinks in.  I just couldn't grasp a lot of the stuff the first time around.  I think I'm firmly in the Sophomore class now.  

No matter what boiler you are even thinking about.  Get a couple years of wood ahead NOW.  Best thing you could do is have good, DRY wood to mess with once you're up and running.

JP


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## heaterman (May 9, 2012)

Lot's of good advice here about lot's of good boilers. I would like to reiterate one point that has already been made and that is regarding properly seasoned wood in a gasification boiler. I cannot over emphasize the importance of getting the wood you expect to burn seasoned to below 25% moisture content. Once you go much above that you can expect a substantial uptick in maintenance, more "fiddling around" to get it to burn right, if at all, more difficulty kindling a fire and reduced efficiency/output.
If a person reads back through some of the threads where people have had issues with their gasser, you'll find that a good share are due to "wet wood".

One other thing I have to say is in regards to a brand that I haven't seen mentioned yet in this discussion and that is Garn. They are more $$ but if it's within your financial capability you owe it to yourself to check one out. There are no adjustments, no variable speed blowers, no oxygen sensors, no dampers, not even so much as an aquastat. There is also no need for added complexity resulting from field engineering external storage. They are in a class by themselves when it comes to being simple.
The design is 30 years old and it surpasses the EPA Phase II standard by a wide margin using the more accurate ASTM test method. There are many out there yet that are 25+ years old and still chugging along which is a track record few, if any can match.

An astute observer of this forum will notice that many come here and talk about having to tweak and "fine tune" their boilers, as well as figuring out how to add storage, but users who end up with a Garn usually disappear once they get them installed. There is a reason for that.


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## Tennman (May 10, 2012)

You're right HM. My subconscious poll collected over the past ~4 years would have to put Garn owners either at or very near the top in customer satisfaction. Seems like Garn owners show up here for research, install one, tell us they love it, and say see ya. At this point in time I've got somewhere between 11-12k in my 60 class system and about to probably spend ~1.5-2k adding storage. In fairness ~1-2k of that install cost includes my infamous underground screwup. That is my direct cost not accounting for probably several hundred hours of free labor doing the install (which BTW I enjoyed). So my full up, DIY 60 class system with storage and without screwup expenses is about 12-13k. For some reason I'm thinking Garn doesn't allow DIY. If you can, roughly how much more would I have spent to get a Garn 1500 boiler. A DIY +/- 1k ROM estimate would make it more apples to apples. No pricing on the Garn site. But I agree, knowing what I know now the Garn would be up there in my trade study with those fancy lambda boilers.


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## hobbyheater (May 10, 2012)

heaterman said:


> but users who end up with a Garn usually disappear once they get them installed. There is a reason for that.


 
When we acquired our Jetstream, Garn was not yet in the market. Had it been, there would have been a Garn in our basement!  As a long time user of gasification and storage,  I will list some of the reasons why I Like Garn.
1 Firebox has a simple system of fire brick.
2  Refractory nozzle is easy to replace, is available even for your very early models and if necessary, it would not be to hard to make.
3 The refractory is heated gradually as the fire is lit and builds to peak temperature and cools gradually as the fire dies and goes out.  No sudden thermal shock of the refractory so one should get maximum life out of the refractory.
4 The unit is basic simple.

Thanks to Gord Bullen of Advanced Wood Heat,  I got to see one first hand. This one was being delivered to the remote community of Quatsino on Vancouver Island.


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## heaterman (May 10, 2012)

Tennman said:


> You're right HM. My subconscious poll collected over the past ~4 years would have to put Garn owners either at or very near the top in customer satisfaction. Seems like Garn owners show up here for research, install one, tell us they love it, and say see ya. At this point in time I've got somewhere between 11-12k in my 60 class system and about to probably spend ~1.5-2k adding storage. In fairness ~1-2k of that install cost includes my infamous underground screwup. That is my direct cost not accounting for probably several hundred hours of free labor doing the install (which BTW I enjoyed). So my full up, DIY 60 class system with storage and without screwup expenses is about 12-13k. For some reason I'm thinking Garn doesn't allow DIY. If you can, roughly how much more would I have spent to get a Garn 1500 boiler. A DIY +/- 1k ROM estimate would make it more apples to apples. No pricing on the Garn site. But I agree, knowing what I know now the Garn would be up there in my trade study with those fancy lambda boilers.


 
Factory suggested list on a 1500 horizontal flue model is $12,995.00 and many Garns are installed via DIY labor.


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## ewdudley (May 11, 2012)

stupe said:


> I'm starting to think a pellet gasifier would be better suited for me then a wood gasifier just for the shear fact that I don't want to start a fire every day. My wood stove currently runs from November to April and I let it go out maybe a dozen times. Thoughts?


Just one more assurance that lighting a gasifier takes very little fuss or time. With forced draft it's really not a problem.

If there's no chance you'll be getting natural gas service, or you're otherwise buying fuel, or you don't think 'free' wood is inexpensive, don't overlook the coal boiler option. A boiler and a full ten year supply of bagged coal would run about $15k. That's all your heating needs out of the way for ten years with no wood to purchase, season, or handle. Bagged coal stores indefinitely, but you do need to keep the plastic bags themselves out of the sun.


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## stupe (Nov 28, 2012)

Just thought I would share my Vigas install pictures. I've been completely converted. I love this stupid thing. My wife calls it my "new best friend". I built a woodshed addition off the back side of my garage for wood and the boiler. I have 500 gallons of storage in the basement (now wish I went with another 500 gallon tank but Mark couldn't find any more). As it was my tank had to be a "pig-nose" type propane tank, because a normal 500 gallon propane tank is taller than my 9'-6" basement ceiling. Anyway, 500 gallons works fine for now because I have radiant heat so I occationally let my tank drift own to 110F. On a 30 deg day I only need to fire it once, although I find myself sometime firing it twice a day just because I love playing with it. I'm heating 6000 sqft. I leave the man-door open beween my garage and woodshed and it keeps my 1200sqft garage at a comfortable 65F (just from the boiler heat).

Completely happy with the choice.  Thanks for everyone's help!


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## mikefrommaine (Nov 28, 2012)

Congratulations, looks great. Quite a change from your first post -- wasn't sure a gasser was right for you since you didnt want to have to start a fire everyday.

Mark couldn't find any tanks or just the pig noses?


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## Gasifier (Nov 28, 2012)

No matter what boiler you are even thinking about. Get a couple years of wood ahead NOW. Best thing you could do is have good, DRY wood to mess with once you're up and running.

+1 on JP's comment. 

OH. I just realized how old this thread is.  Nice install and congrats on the system!


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## kopeck (Nov 28, 2012)

Congrats!

I too spent way to much time watching a big steel box not do a whole lot besides keep the oil man away. 

K


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## stupe (Nov 28, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> Congratulations, looks great. Quite a change from your first post -- wasn't sure a gasser was right for you since you didnt want to have to start a fire everyday.
> 
> Mark couldn't find any tanks or just the pig noses?


 
Couldn't find any more pig noses.  As it was it took him a few months to find the one I got. 

Yeah I know, I pretty much took a 180 deg turn from my first post.  Its amazing how much heat stays in the boiler between firings.  If I go 5-6 hours between firings theres usually enough hot coals left to allow it to fire back up - and if there isn't, 30 seconds with the propane torch is all it takes.  5 minute job at most.


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## Gasifier (Nov 29, 2012)

Hey stupe. I forgot to ask. How did you end up insulating that tank?


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## stupe (Nov 29, 2012)

Gasifier said:


> Hey stupe. I forgot to ask. How did you end up insulating that tank?


 
Blown-in fiberglass insulation.  buy 10 bags at Home Depot and the machine rental is free.  Tank took 5 bags and I blew the other 5 bags into my attic.  The temp in the space where the tank is located is 71F, so I'm not loosing much heat, and if I do, who cares, its in my basement anyways.  I also managed to route my 1 1/4" pex from my boiler to the tank (which is in the basement) though the garage, mudroom, laundry rm, and down into the basement so all my standby losses go into the house.  I won't run the wood boiler in the summer because I have solar that takes care of that.


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2012)

I am kind of suprised at how little insulation seems to be needed to keep my heat in my tanks. Right now I've more or less just got them boxed - the top, one side & one end only has some 1-1/2" left over foam board cut to pieces that would fit the spaces. Other side has a 3-1/2" space filled with fibreglass batts plus the foamboard over top. other end has Roxul batts held in place with bungey cords. I had to crack the foam board on the foam board end open a little bit to let some heat out because my basement was getting too chilly for comfort. I seem to be getting a LOT less latent heat off the new boiler & piping (smoke & water) than I did off the old one. I will be adding more insulation later for after the heating season.


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## Tennman (Nov 29, 2012)

Ahhhh... Stupe. Way to go! Never heard of a "pig nose" tank before. That's what I need. My internal customer satisfaction database on happy Vigas customers is steadily growing. (With great restraint I will absolutely resist any references or comments regarding a Viagra boiler).


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## JP11 (Nov 29, 2012)

Tennman said:


> My internal customer satisfaction database on happy Vigas customers is steadily growing.


 
You don't see too many of us on here posting about not being happy with the boiler, or Mark.

You also don't see us posting about tinkering with settings much either.  Push button.. load wood... push button.



JP


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## nrcrash (Nov 29, 2012)

JP11 said:


> You don't see too many of us on here posting about not being happy with the boiler, or Mark.
> 
> You also don't see us posting about tinkering with settings much either. Push button.. load wood... push button.
> 
> ...


 
I 2nd that!!


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## stupe (Nov 29, 2012)

nrcrash said:


> I 2nd that!!


 
Yeah not much to tinker with. Although, have any of you Vigas owners ever played around with the boiler output capacity by lowering the maximum fan speed using the "delta fan" option in the settings?  I'm have a hard time understanding if I'm having an impact on efficiency by lowering the fan speed and slowing the boiler down.  With the slower fan speed the boiler still gasifies and creates gobs of heat.  I think maybe the flue temps are a little lower, but I'm not positive since it's always variable.  I sometime wish the boiler didn't run through its cycle so quickly.  If you leave the fan at 100% speed, essentially what is happening is the gas pedal is mashing to the floor and its full speed ahead, which may very well be the best way to run these things.  I really don't know for sure.  I'm sure someone on here has played around with it.


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## JP11 (Nov 29, 2012)

I have played with mine.  I THINK I got slightly better burns with marginal wood.  I spoke with Mark about this at this year's fair... as I had the boiler in and running by then... and was ready to soak up some more knowledge. 

He essentially said that setting 0 was the most efficient for the boiler.  After going over my settings with him.. He recommended that I change my min fan speed up to 35.

I may go back to running +1 on the delta.. just because I'm running 1 year seasoned wood... and the extra push ATTEMPTING to get 215k btus out of it instead of 205.. will actually get me closer to rated output.  I've had AT TIMES flue temps in the 250 range when my wife is burning.  So maybe the plus setting would help her out.

When I'm home.. and checking it more often and generally messing with it when I don't have to... I seem to get flue temps closer to 350 or so.  Right in the sweet spot.

Mark has said that he burns old corn in his.. and it burns SO HOT that he has to run -3 just to keep the temps down.

Some settings in there to monkey with.. but nothing you really NEED to make it run right.  Just kind of tweaks to your individual setup.

JP


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## stupe (Nov 29, 2012)

Ok I gotcha, that makes sense.  So if your wood was a little wet, it would make sense to bump the delta up a little bit, right?  My wood must be pretty dry because this thing runs like a ***** ape.  I'm like you, I can't help from looking inside every now and then just to see whats do'n.  I have noticed that with some fatter pieces of wood that I get the occasional bridging over the nozzle and once I poke it a few times the boiler takes right off like a rocket again.  That howling gasser sound just never gets old.  Thanks for the insight on how that delta works.


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## JP11 (Nov 29, 2012)

stupe said:


> Ok I gotcha, that makes sense. So if your wood was a little wet, it would make sense to bump the delta up a little bit, right? My wood must be pretty dry because this thing runs like a ***** ape. I'm like you, I can't help from looking inside every now and then just to see whats do'n. I have noticed that with some fatter pieces of wood that I get the occasional bridging over the nozzle and once I poke it a few times the boiler takes right off like a rocket again. That howling gasser sound just never gets old. Thanks for the insight on how that delta works.


 
I am by no means an expert.  I've gotten well over rated output while on 0 setting when I stuffed it full of hemlock.  I seem to have just brought in a couple loads of punky stuff.  I cranked up the delta tonight just to try.  Got back up into the 300s.  The burn sure isn't linear.  First couple hours were lackluster with intermittent gassing.  After that though.. I stirred and added some wood.. and off to the races and hit max temp within minutes.  Very happy, despite the good size investment I made.


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## stupe (Nov 29, 2012)

Yeah I hear ya on the cost, its a pricey toy. Maybe the price of propane will hit $10/gal... I'd feel better then.


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## nrcrash (Nov 30, 2012)

stupe said:


> Maybe the price of propane will hit $10/gal... I'd feel better then.




It's only a matter of time before it does!


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## Tennman (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm surprised more of these high end boilers don't offer a window in the lower chamber door. I know exactly what you mean about the temptation to peek. But I always glance to see the glow in the lower chamber door window as I leave the boiler room. That glow and then looking at the flue when I step outside the boiler barn to make sure I don't see a wiff of blue smoke let's me know all's well. For you Lambda guys, I guess except in the case of bridging, the boiler takes care of that hint of smoke. Trying to pick up what you guys are talking about to learn your lingo.


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## Gasifier (Nov 30, 2012)

Tennman said:


> I'm surprised more of these high end boilers don't offer a window in the lower chamber door. I know exactly what you mean about the temptation to peek. But I always glance to see the glow in the lower chamber door window as I leave the boiler room. That glow and then looking at the flue when I step outside the boiler barn to make sure I don't see a wiff of blue smoke let's me know all's well. For you Lambda guys, I guess except in the case of bridging, the boiler takes care of that hint of smoke. Trying to pick up what you guys are talking about to learn your lingo.


 
Yup. I have been wishing for one of those since I went over to the Gassifier. Love it. But miss seeing the fire.  The glass door in the wood stove was nice, real nice. Many a night I would grab a cold beer and go down and watch the fire before going to bed. Talk about relaxing. Better than the TV any day.! I wonder what it would take to get a lower door made with a glass view?


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Nov 30, 2012)

I'm probably one of the few people who have owned and operated both a non-lambda controlled and lambda controlled boiler. My first boiler was an EKO40 which I operated for two years in northern Michigan. My second (and final boiler) is an Effecta Lambda 35kW. I am on my 3rd winter with this boiler and just love it. It is certainly one of the best performing and best looking wood gasification boilers on the market today and would highly recommend anyone looking at purchasing a wood boiler to check these boilers out.


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## stupe (Nov 30, 2012)

mmmm..window...that would be so nice.  I'm also constantly looking at the chimney.  I see a hint of smoke every once in a while but for the most part there is nothing. 

Here's another question...anyone ever burn wood chips in these things?  My town has a pile of wood chips the size of my house that they provide to the residents for free (if you come get it).  I see it as a big pile of bio-mass.  The wood chips are about the size of a half dollar coin and are actually quite clean. Most folks (including me) use the chips for mulch.  Is there any reason you couldn't just shovel that crap in?  I suppose it would matter if the chips are dry or not.  I would think they would dry out rather quickly being all chipped up.  Probably more of a hassle then its worth.  Just curious...


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## Tennman (Nov 30, 2012)

Yeah, the BioMass 60 has about a 2" diameter glass viewing port right in the middle of the lower door. Since I don't have storage yet and can't run wide open it's invaluable for us "non-lambda" guys to gage the health of the burn.

EBU, My interest in following this post is that frankly you lambda guys seem to be like the Garn folks. Show up, do the research, ask some questions, pick a Garn, Froling, Effecta, Vigas, etc, check in to say all's good and... see ya. Hard to gage the satisfaction level between those examples above for someone who may be considering an upgrade in his future because it appears everyone's happy! To me it reflects a maturing market from when I started my research over 4 years ago. But there is clearly an emerging price/performance/risk strata quite different from just 4-5 years ago when the smart, low-risk choice was the EKO. Cheers


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## kopeck (Nov 30, 2012)

My Tarm has a sight glass in the bottom chamber, that isn't the norm?

I know a lot of guys like to open the door and peak in during gasifcation.  I've found that doing that on my boiler tends to disrupt gasifcation.  Peak through the sight glass though and the old girl is cranking!

K


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## maple1 (Nov 30, 2012)

kopeck said:


> My Tarm has a sight glass in the bottom chamber, that isn't the norm?
> 
> I know a lot of guys like to open the door and peak in during gasifcation. I've found that doing that on my boiler tends to disrupt gasifcation. Peak through the sight glass though and the old girl is cranking!
> 
> K


 
If I shut all the lights off in my basement after dark, mine casts a slight glow on the basement floor via the sight glass (which also doubles as the secondary air adjustment flapper thing).

It really is hypnotizing.


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## mikefrommaine (Nov 30, 2012)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I'm probably one of the few people who have owned and operated both a non-lambda controlled and lambda controlled boiler. My first boiler was an EKO40 which I operated for two years in northern Michigan. My second (and final boiler) is an Effecta Lambda 35kW. I am on my 3rd winter with this boiler and just love it. It is certainly one of the best performing and best looking wood gasification boilers on the market today and would highly recommend anyone looking at purchasing a wood boiler to check these boilers out.




Thats pretty much the sales pitch Id expect considering you sell effecta's.


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## mikefrommaine (Nov 30, 2012)

Tennman said:


> Yeah, the BioMass 60 has about a 2" diameter glass viewing port right in the middle of the lower door. Since I don't have storage yet and can't run wide open it's invaluable for us "non-lambda" guys to gage the health of the burn.
> 
> EBU, My interest in following this post is that frankly you lambda guys seem to be like the Garn folks. Show up, do the research, ask some questions, pick a Garn, Froling, Effecta, Vigas, etc, check in to say all's good and... see ya. Hard to gage the satisfaction level between those examples above for someone who may be considering an upgrade in his future because it appears everyone's happy! To me it reflects a maturing market from when I started my research over 4 years ago. But there is clearly an emerging price/performance/risk strata quite different from just 4-5 years ago when the smart, low-risk choice was the EKO. Cheers



I think it's hard to make judgments about any brand based on the small sample size here. All of hearth.com has ~24k registered users. The majority of which dont post in the boiler room. The pellet pigs have a forum 2x the size of the boiler room. So the sample size is modest.

Not saying its happening here. But it would be very easy for a mfr to create "users" to praise there products or pay for people to post positively about their product. It happened to amazon, Google 'Todd Jason Rutherford'.' People who show up for a short time and post positive reviews are a little suspect to me. Just the nature of the internet. Some of the new dealers would be highly motivated as this forum is a cheap way to get their name out in what is becoming a crowded marketplace.


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## kopeck (Nov 30, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> Thats pretty much the sales pitch Id expect considering you sell effecta's.


 
Yeah...He does have have the experience with both which is valuable and some what unique but it really did turn into a sales pitch.

That and we all know the Tarm Solo Innova is the best looking boiler on the market.  I do wish it had racing stripes though. 

K


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## maineDIY (Nov 30, 2012)

ewdudley said:


> Just one more assurance that lighting a gasifier takes very little fuss or time. With forced draft it's really not a problem.
> 
> If there's no chance you'll be getting natural gas service, or you're otherwise buying fuel, or you don't think 'free' wood is inexpensive, don't overlook the coal boiler option. A boiler and a full ten year supply of bagged coal would run about $15k. That's all your heating needs out of the way for ten years with no wood to purchase, season, or handle. Bagged coal stores indefinitely, but you do need to keep the plastic bags themselves out of the sun.


 
Is disposal of the cinders from coal burning a management problem?


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## nrcrash (Nov 30, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> I think it's hard to make judgments about any brand based on the small sample size here. All of hearth.com has ~24k registered users. The majority of which dont post in the boiler room. The pellet pigs have a forum 2x the size of the boiler room. So the sample size is modest.
> 
> Not saying its happening here. But it would be very easy for a mfr to create "users" to praise there products or pay for people to post positively about their product. It happened to amazon, Google 'Todd Jason Rutherford'.' People who show up for a short time and post positive reviews are a little suspect to me. Just the nature of the internet. Some of the new dealers would be highly motivated as this forum is a cheap way to get their name out in what is becoming a crowded marketplace.


 

Even I've been accused of being a Vigas dealer!  Guess I just like my boiler too much!

A viewing window would be nice on the Vigas just for my entertainment.  But thats about all it would serve as, with the lambda controls if my flue temps are up I know I am gassifing.


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## mr.fixit (Nov 30, 2012)

maple1 said:


> If I shut all the lights off in my basement after dark, mine casts a slight glow on the basement floor via the sight glass (which also doubles as the secondary air adjustment flapper thing).
> 
> It really is hypnotizing.


I'm glad that I'm not the only one sitting alone and watching a wood boiler!


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## kopeck (Nov 30, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> I think it's hard to make judgments about any brand based on the small sample size here. All of hearth.com has ~24k registered users. The majority of which dont post in the boiler room. The pellet pigs have a forum 2x the size of the boiler room. So the sample size is modest.
> 
> Not saying its happening here. But it would be very easy for a mfr to create "users" to praise there products or pay for people to post positively about their product. It happened to amazon, Google 'Todd Jason Rutherford'.' People who show up for a short time and post positive reviews are a little suspect to me. Just the nature of the internet. Some of the new dealers would be highly motivated as this forum is a cheap way to get their name out in what is becoming a crowded marketplace.


 
I think you make a good point here.  Ultimately all the gasifcation units talked about on here accomplish the same thing.  A boiler is rated at an output at a certain efficiency.  It maybe an over simplification on my part but that efficiency = performance, that is how well it turns wood into heat.  Every indoor gasser I looked at was 80% efficient or better.  The lambda were at the high end for obvious reasons but event then that was around 90%.  I also remember reading somewhere that 90% was pretty much the best you could do with wood, no amount of boiler magic is going to get you above that.

As far as plants go on here, maybe who knows.  I would kind of doubt it, I mean we have some folks who clearly are dealers but they're pretty easy to pick out.

We can also only really speak about what we know too.  You have a Biomass and like it, I have a Tarm and like it, some one else has a Froling or a Vigas.  We all picked them for a reason so naturally we're going to support the product we picked that is unless that product let us down.  That being said they all have their up and downs but if your house it warm then something is working right!

K


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## stupe (Nov 30, 2012)

kopeck said:


> I think you make a good point here. Ultimately all the gasifcation units talked about on here accomplish the same thing. A boiler is rated at an output at a certain efficiency. It maybe an over simplification on my part but that efficiency = performance, that is how well it turns wood into heat. Every indoor gasser I looked at was 80% efficient or better. The lambda were at the high end for obvious reasons but event then that was around 90%. I also remember reading somewhere that 90% was pretty much the best you could do with wood, no amount of boiler magic is going to get you above that.
> 
> As far as plants go on here, maybe who knows. I would kind of doubt it, I mean we have some folks who clearly are dealers but they're pretty easy to pick out.
> 
> ...


 
Your pretty much right.  I've been researching indoor wood boilers for about 5 years before I finally pulled the trigger on a Vigas.  There were a couple of reasons I went with the Vigas; for one, the design is incredibly simple.  Almost every part on the thing (right down to the door hinges) are something you could fabricate yourself or buy at a hardware store.  I suppose the control board is unique but I'm sure you could find something similar.  The second thing is build quality.  It seems second to none.

But the MAIN reason I bought it was because I wanted to buy from a distributer that was somewhat local to my area and had the know-how to provide excellent service and support.  I smart enough to know that I don't know!  So through the recommendations of some folks on here, I made the 2 1/2 hour drive to Mark's "mad scientist compound" to check out what he's got.  Anyone who's been there knows what I mean.  The guy is absolutely fascinating to talk to.  Anyway, after I left I was ready to buy 3 boilers.  I knew I was buying from the right guy.  All the gassers work pretty much the same way, and yeah I could have found something cheaper, but at the end of the day you get what you pay for, and that includes service.  The Vigas may not look like a fancy new refrigerator like some boilers, but it works.


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## mikefrommaine (Nov 30, 2012)

kopeck said:


> Yeah...He does have have the experience with both which is valuable and some what unique but it really did turn into a sales pitch.
> 
> That and we all know the Tarm Solo Innova is the best looking boiler on the market.  I do wish it had racing stripes though.
> 
> K



Some dealers are upfront about who they are, others not so much. 

Most of these boilers are pretty much the same. Effecta boiler user would probably have a hard time competing with more established brands without his lambda control. So obviously he is going to tout its benifits. The way he does it as a 'user' without making his intent clear is what i find questionable.


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## JP11 (Nov 30, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:


> The way he does it as a 'user' without making his intent clear is what i find questionable.


 
Don't feel like the lone ranger.  I had the same reaction.  of COURSE the dealer's got the best thing since sliced bread.  I tell people I like what i BOUGHT.  I've invited a few to come by and look at it... share the knowledge.  I've learned so much from this site.  To think of the dumb ideas I had two years ago.

As for chips.. I bet that big pile o chips is REALLY wet chips in the middle.  Even if it's clean.. I don't think it would be worth the hassle.

JP


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## nwomatt (Dec 1, 2012)

I just sent a bank draft to a dealer in southern Ontario for the purchase of a Vigas 60. should get it in the next few weeks. I'm excited and nervous at the same time. After reading these comments I feel pretty good about my decision. I to have been reading for years trying to decide. Vigas it is. Will definitely be on here lots from now until fire time.


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## flyingcow (Dec 1, 2012)

nwomatt said:


> I just sent a bank draft to a dealer in southern Ontario for the purchase of a Vigas 60. should get it in the next few weeks. I'm excited and nervous at the same time. After reading these comments I feel pretty good about my decision. I to have been reading for years trying to decide. Vigas it is. Will definitely be on here lots from now until fire time.


 

You did well. Get ready to rock on in the gasser world. set back and ride.


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