# Do they make a left handed smoke bender? seriously I could use help



## infinitymike (Mar 30, 2013)

I have a PROBLEM!

My neighbor who is diagonally across the street from me came over Thursday to COMPLAIN about the smell.
He is 70 years old and moved here last year. He called the town and the guy came out to respond to his
complaint. The town clown said to him that he didn't see that I had a permit for the "stove". I told him it wasn't a stove but a hydronic heating appliance and that before I bought the unit I had been to the town hall with a set of blueprints showing where I was installing it as well as all the necessary code compliant info. I spoke to the head plans examiner (who I know through business) and he said that I didn't need a permit because it would be like me changing out my oil burner with a gas burner.

My neighbor then began to tell me that he called the DEC and the EPA to find out what the acceptable limit of smoke is allowed. Supposedly you are not allowed to have more then 15 minutes of visible smoke. Which I in turn said that I never have that much because it a gasifier and went into the description of how it works. He said that he never really used a stop watch but he can smell it for hours.

He lives South East of me so all winter the North West wind blows whatever smoke and smell right at his house.

He wasn't obnoxious but just whiney. He told me how he was a runner and did triathlons and he plays the trumpet in the church band and that this smell is affecting his breathing. He said he didn't want to cause any trouble and that I would see a for sale sign on his property before he complained any more but he was told by the town that he needed to speak to me and then report back to them.

I live in the burbs in a development where the houses are on 1 acre lots. He is about 100 -150 yards from me.
I want to live at peace with my neighbors and don't know how to accommodate this guy.

Do you think having a taller stack would help. My cap is about 12' off the ground because it is in my garage which is only one story tall. Maybe that way it will get up into the air and float over his house. (doubt it) But how high would that have to be? Then I would have this ridiculesly tall stack with guide wires sticking above my roof and it still may not work.

Is there some sort of filtration system I can put on the top of the stack. Some sort of pad that traps the smell of fire 
My next door neighbor was over at the time this guy was complaining and he stuck up for me saying that he never smells anything. But the truth is he is next door to me and the wind very rarely blows that way. Plus he was a wood burner for 30 years in his other house so he probably is used to it.

Here are a few pics to show the conditions. The guys house is slightly hidden by the trees. And my back was against the stack when I took the picture




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## salecker (Mar 31, 2013)

I'd add a length to the stack and hope that shows your trying.
 Nieghbours


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## Fred61 (Mar 31, 2013)

salecker said:


> I'd add a length to the stack and hope that shows your trying.
> Nieghbours


 I think I would try this to see if you can get the odor past this guy. I had the same odor with my Gun. It wasn't smoke but mostly smelled like a sulfur smell like a coal fire. I assumed and still do that it is unburned wood gas. As I said in a past posting, I would put my two poodles out for a few minutes to do their business at night and they would re-enter the house smelling like it. Perhaps you could contact AHS and ask them if they had done any experimenting with the addition of seondary air and if so, that you would be willing to be a beta site for their experiments.


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## willyswagon (Mar 31, 2013)

Wow I hope you can get that cleared up with your neighbor. There is nothing worse than someone who calls in the town on ya.
That's why I live in the boonies, larger lots, 2 1/2 to 100 acres and those that don't burn wood now, did growing up and know how much cheaper it is than oil, or electric.

Everybody up here sees a pile of firewood and says wow there's some pile of heat in that!!


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 31, 2013)

salecker said:


> I'd add a length to the stack and hope that shows your trying.
> Nieghbours


 

Might as well put one on to show your trying. But I doubt it will make a difference. I often see smoke from 30-40' chimneys being pushed to ground levels by the air currents around town.


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

I agree that putting a section on will be an act of good faith but other than that a waste of money. 

Do you think there is some sort of filtration system? Like when they paint cars or spray furniture they capture all the fumes and it doesn't smell at all by the exhuast fan. 

What if I repipe the stack back into my burn chamber like an EGR on a car exhuast, then vent it?


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 31, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> I agree that putting a section on will be an act of good faith but other than that a waste of money.
> 
> Do you think there is some sort of filtration system? Like when they paint cars or spray furniture they capture all the fumes and it doesn't smell at all by the exhuast fan.
> 
> What if I repipe the stack back into my burn chamber like an EGR on a car exhuast, then vent it?


Ebay has some 'afterburners' for owb. Never heard many good things about them. Might work for you since the emissions aren't as bad to begin with.


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## bmblank (Mar 31, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Might as well put one on to show your trying. But I doubt it will make a difference. I often see smoke from 30-40' chimneys being pushed to ground levels by the air currents around town.



I can take a step out my basement door and smell burning wood. Smell is different than smoke.
On another note,i wouldn't even consider anything less than 10 acres when i was looking. Luckily i found a square 10 and the house is mostly in the middle of it.


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## Fred61 (Mar 31, 2013)

Have you throttled down your combustion air damper? My suggestion would be, give it all the combustion air you can and perhaps run smaller fires.


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## Floydian (Mar 31, 2013)

Mike,

I am not trying to turn this into a storage vs no storage debate, but I wonder if repeated periods of idling are an issue here. The reason I say this is because with my set up (storage) I get a little bit smoke and smell on cold start up-smoke free in under 2 mins and no smoke smell after 5-8 mins, best I can tell. The ONLY smell I get during a burn is a faint toasted wood odor that is hard to even distinguish most of the time, certainly not like unburned hydrocarbons. Then I get a tiny bit smoke and smell at the very end of the burn- last 10-15 mins maybe-before the boiler shuts off.

I have 1000 gallons and a boiler that requires storage as it CAN'T idle (a no go in Sweden) so it is strictly batch burning for me. Neighbors are not an issue for me but my family spends a bit time outside year round and we were often bothered by the smoke from our old inefficient wood stove. Just one of the reasons I am committed to clean burning.

Storage may not an option for you at all, but it would only help things IMO. Especially this time of year when your boiler can become way over sized to your heat load.

Granted that storage may not solve your issue here-I don't know the WG's.

Best of luck figuring this out,

Noah


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 31, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> The town clown said to him that he didn't see that I had a permit for the "stove". I told him it wasn't a stove but a hydronic heating appliance and that before I bought the unit I had been to the town hall with a set of blueprints showing where I was installing it as well as all the necessary code compliant info. I spoke to the head plans examiner (who I know through business) and he said that I didn't need a permit because it would be like me changing out my oil burner with a gas burner.​


 

I hope that you got accurate advice originally. In my city I the code enforcement officer said I didn't need a permit from their office. But the fire department required a permit and inspection for a solid fuel boiler.

I wouldn't get too worried unless someone else shows up at your door.

And if they do, storage would be my next move. You can burn at night under the cover of darkness.  Kind of like how the underground works.


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## Fred61 (Mar 31, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Is there some sort of filtration system I can put on the top of the stack. Some sort of pad that traps the smell of fire


 How about removing the cap? It must direct the exhaust downward.


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## wazzu (Mar 31, 2013)

You guys back east are nuts! So worried about every ones little complaints. Who cares, if you are within the law its his problem. Not yours.


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## goodwood (Mar 31, 2013)

if your boiler is in your garage i'd be worried if someone came to inspect it


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## __dan (Mar 31, 2013)

My sympathies Mike. My neighbor called the town on me but he is north west of me and the wind never blows in his direction, always east to the woods or south east to the woods again. He complained of a metallic taste in his mouth, not smoke, is taking heavy medication for a liver transplant, and generally has been always senile and abusive to those around him. I tried the friendly truthful explanation (it was impossible for the smoke to travel 150 ft against the wind and what he saw was mostly water vapor). He said thanks for the weather report and continued threatening me. I said, call the town, get your experts out here, they will explain it to you.

Unfortunately in your case, with the breeze passing generally in your neighbors direction, he may have a legitimate complaint, that he can smell the smoke. There is nothing I can think of that will completely eliminate the smell, it does not take much to be detectable by smell, even at long distances.

They make a catalytic flue scrubber for OWB's but I have no experience with them. I have also toyed with the idea of using old 50 gallon propane tanks as a flue gas condenser, that would certainly reduce some amount of residual ash and H2O from the flue gas, but there is nothing I can think of to completely eliminate the smell, only mitigating measures. Certainly some adjustment to your burning routine may do something. I get my worst smell at the end of the burn when the Froling detects fuel load burnout, goes off, and there is still some unburned wood, not fully charcoalized, in the primary chamber. I am in the habit now of checking the fire around that time, 2-3 hours after adding fuel, and just poking the fire to get everything to burn fully. When those unburned remains sit there smoldering, after the Froling is off, I get a strong sulphur smell in the house. Otherwise the froling is not fussy about wood shape, split size, and I've been cleaning my yard of the worst stuff first.

Given the existing conditions, and if you wanted to spend money on it, storage is probably the best bet for a return on the investment. The catalyitic flue gas scrubbers may be worth looking at, they're a couple thousand if I recall. A flue gas condensing tank is a non standard, not factory supported, accessory, if you had the steel in the yard and wanted to experiment..You may be able to mitigate, but not cure, the smell.


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## iceguy4 (Mar 31, 2013)

I have a right handed smoke bender...maybe you could invert it and couple it with a kanipulator...just a thought...also its blue so it will match your roof


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## iceguy4 (Mar 31, 2013)

also neighbors who call the town SUCK... just saying...it takes my "give a crap" level down several notches...


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## Fred61 (Mar 31, 2013)

The last house I had was plunked in the center of forty acres and the neighbors weren't close enough to be affected by the odor. Although I had to drive up or down the road in order to see them they were still good friends. When I would shoot coons out of my sweet corn at 1:00AM I would get a couple phone calls asking:  D-jaa git em?

The house I'm in right now has neighbors a little closer but any odor wouldn't reach them. They're several feet lower than my property and on a different road. Also I don't get that odor from the Eko. And now that I've finally learned how to start a fire, I get almost NO smoke on start-up.


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> How about removing the cap? It must direct the exhaust downward.


 
They cap really doesn't hinder the upward direction of the exhaust. It just rolls out and around it. I can see the heat shimmers traveling upward. When I do have some smoke it just follows the wind.


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

wazzu said:


> You guys back east are nuts! So worried about every ones little complaints. Who cares, if you are within the law its his problem. Not yours.


 
I agree with you and also need to live in close proximity to this guy.


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

goodwood said:


> if your boiler is in your garage i'd be worried if someone came to inspect it


 
I've been down this road before and so have many people here. NYS code allows heating appliances in a garage as long as they meet certain requirements. One of them is NOT building it into a enclosed room. 

Plus my garage is an obvious storage room rather then an active car parking area.
So I'm not worried.


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

iceguy4 said:


> I have a right handed smoke bender...maybe you could invert it and couple it with a kanipulator...just a thought...also its blue so it will match your roof


 
Can you post that in the items for sale section so I can buy it? Oh wait you said it was blue... never mind my roof is brown. Can you paint it before I buy it?


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

iceguy4 said:


> also neighbors who call the town SUCK... just saying...it takes my "give a crap" level down several notches...


 
Believe my "give a crap" level has been way down lately especially with Cuomo's dumb ass laws he just passed. But that is "politically charged" statement that belongs in the ash can and don't want to upset anyone here in the boiler room


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

__dan said:


> My sympathies Mike. My neighbor called the town on me but he is north west of me and the wind never blows in his direction, always east to the woods or south east to the woods again. He complained of a metallic taste in his mouth, not smoke, is taking heavy medication for a liver transplant, and generally has been always senile and abusive to those around him. I tried the friendly truthful explanation (it was impossible for the smoke to travel 150 ft against the wind and what he saw was mostly water vapor). He said thanks for the weather report and continued threatening me. I said, call the town, get your experts out here, they will explain it to you.
> 
> Unfortunately in your case, with the breeze passing generally in your neighbors direction, he may have a legitimate complaint, that he can smell the smoke. There is nothing I can think of that will completely eliminate the smell, it does not take much to be detectable by smell, even at long distances.
> 
> ...


 
Dan , a scrubber is exactly what I envisioned.

They are used in the production of  SYNGAS, which is the process of burning wood to create gas that can burn in an internal combustion engine ie:  car, tractor, electric generator. 

I was thinking of redirecting the exhaust into a 55 gallon drum filled with a media of wood chips and mulch, then allowing it to be exhausted into the air.


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## infinitymike (Mar 31, 2013)

FYI
The smell is apparent even when the unit is burning wide open and there is no visible smoke only heat shimmers from the stack.
Its a pungent type of smell, not that nice woodsy smell that I love to smell on a cold crisp snowy night.


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## Fred61 (Mar 31, 2013)

The closest I can describe it is a sulpher smell. Thats when I noticed it the most. When it was burning full bore. That is one of the reasons I attributed it to incomplete combustion of the gas in the secondary fire tube. Oxygen being used up in primary combustion and not enough left to completely burn the gas that has been produced.


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## heaterman (Apr 1, 2013)

Methinks that was not a Floydian slip when Noah suggested storage. Anything you can do to prevent idling is going to help. Burn it all and burn it hot and fast.

I would not waste my money on a catalytic device. A couple bad batches of wood will render it pretty much worthless....if it actually does anything in the first place.

If you're getting a real pungent sulpher/coal type smell the combustion is probably less than optimal. Try adjusting primary/secondary air volumes if that's possible.


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## maple1 (Apr 1, 2013)

Maybe it's because my chimney is way up in the air, or I haven't been out in the yard with the right wind conditions for it - but I've never smelled anything from mine. 

Good luck with this situation, sure sounds like a sticky one.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 1, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Methinks that was not a Floydian slip when Noah suggested storage.


 

I see what you did there.


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## Floydian (Apr 1, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Methinks that was not a Floydian slip when Noah suggested storage.


 


You have had me convinced of the benefits of storage and batch burning for as long as I have been a member of this site. Now I am finally enjoying it first hand, so thanks!

Noah


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## infinitymike (Apr 1, 2013)

Having storage and batch burning is a great benefit I hope to be able to experience. 
But I don't think that would stop the pungent smell of burning wood that my neighbor is complaining about. 
That is the unfortunate issue I am experiencing now.


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## heaterman (Apr 1, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Having storage and batch burning is a great benefit I hope to be able to experience.
> But I don't think that would stop the pungent smell of burning wood that my neighbor is complaining about.
> That is the unfortunate issue I am experiencing now.


 

Usually a strong smell is because of incomplete combustion of wood gas and particulates. I would try playing with primary and secondary air openings if such a thing is possible on your boiler and experimenting with load size and density if not.


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## Floydian (Apr 1, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Usually a strong smell is because of incomplete combustion of wood gas and particulates. I would try playing with primary and secondary air openings if such a thing is possible on your boiler and experimenting with load size and density if not.


 
Just a thought....Would the use of a flue gas analyzer be a helpful in dialing in the air settings in this situation? About how much would it cost to hire someone with the tool and the knowledge? Could be less expensive then the alternatives.

Noah


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## __dan (Apr 1, 2013)

Found out today, my neighbor complained about my chimney to the town because I would not wire up his foyer for free. I actually knew this, and him, and was sitting home waiting for the complaint about my heat. Just a matter of time.

He went over to the other neighbor to brag about calling three town officials on me. He was mad they all knew me. My friend went down the list. Did he smell smoke, no. What was the beef? Oh, 30 years ago __dan was supposed to wire my foyer and never came back. Actually, I roughed the foyer, with permit, and got paid for the rough only, probably ~ $300 (it's like 16 x 24 with a laundry and electric heat). I said call me when the sheet rock is done, and there is still no sheet rock.
.
I make an allowance for senile old people with medical and lack of mental substance problems. No hard feelings. He is just a non person now.

If any of you guys want a contractor's license, you can have mine. Just buy me lunch.


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## BoilerMan (Apr 1, 2013)

Incomplete combustion aside, these are my thoughts on the "acrid smell" from wood boilers in general.  Stoves don't generally produce this smell due to the hotter surfaces in them.  I think the non-wood like smells are from the tar formation in the combustion chaimber and them the ignition of this creosote during the burn process.  Basically if you have some buildup after the secondary chiaimber (which wood gun is more prone to from my understanding) and it rekindles the fire and this stuff is vaporized your get the blackish smoke at worst or the smell and not much if any visible smoke at best.  I've expieremneted by scraping off some of the flakey creosote in the upper chaimber and putting it in the the lower (freshly cleaned) chaimber and lighting a fire.  The smell and non-wood like smoke is what comes out.

TS


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## scooby074 (Apr 1, 2013)

Your neighbor sounds like an poophead.

I dont buy this quote from him for a minute, "He said he didn't want to cause any trouble and that I would see a for sale sign on his property before he complained any more".

If he didn't want to cause you trouble, he wouldn't have called the town in the first place! I can almost bet, the exact opposite of the quote is true, he will cause you more trouble!

No matter what you do, your going to have issues. Something like a carbon filter would solve the emissions issue, but you're looking at many thousands of dollars.

Good luck and I hope you find a cheap solution. There's a reason I live in the country.. I hate neighbors.


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## Fred61 (Apr 1, 2013)

__dan said:


> I make an allowance for senile old people with medical and lack of mental substance problems.​


 Hey, I represent that remark!


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## heaterman (Apr 1, 2013)

Floydian said:


> Just a thought....Would the use of a flue gas analyzer be a helpful in dialing in the air settings in this situation? About how much would it cost to hire someone with the tool and the knowledge? Could be less expensive then the alternatives.
> 
> Noah


 
It would definitely alert you to problems that may be going on. At the very least it would get you pointed in the right direction. The problem would be finding a tech with an analyzer that will do solid fuel. Most analyzers carried by a typical service company are going to be oil or gas only. Wood is a different can of worms because the CO levels can be high enough to toast the sensor very quickly in a standard meter.


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## infinitymike (Apr 1, 2013)

__dan said:


> Found out today, my neighbor complained about my chimney to the town because I would not wire up his foyer for free. I actually knew this, and him, and was sitting home waiting for the complaint about my heat. Just a matter of time.
> 
> He went over to the other neighbor to brag about calling three town officials on me. He was mad they all knew me. My friend went down the list. Did he smell smoke, no. What was the beef? Oh, 30 years ago __dan was supposed to wire my foyer and never came back. Actually, I roughed the foyer, with permit, and got paid for the rough only, probably ~ $300 (it's like 16 x 24 with a laundry and electric heat). I said call me when the sheet rock is done, and there is still no sheet rock.
> .
> ...


 
30 years?! Really? He just doesn't let go!


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## infinitymike (Apr 1, 2013)

scooby074 said:


> Your neighbor sounds like an poophead.
> 
> I dont buy this quote from him for a minute, "He said he didn't want to cause any trouble and that I would see a for sale sign on his property before he complained any more".
> 
> ...


 
I don't buy it either! Making a statement like that is like telling people how humble you are. Oh so now you are bragging about your humility?

And not only did he call the town but the DEC and the EPA.

Oh and did I mention he needed to drop a few names like the guy he knows who is the head building inspector of the next county over as well as some friends husband who is a supreme court judge.

Big whoopy do, he obviously doesn't know that I know FRED61. Fred you can come over and take of this guy for me?
Maybe you can back up over him with your Grand Sport RV and blame it on the remark you represent.  LOL


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## goosegunner (Apr 1, 2013)

Mike,

Storage won't eliminate the smell completely but it will reduce the time that your boiler will have an active fire.

Mine is running for about 3 hours a day right now. Durning the heart of the heating season it was about 6 hours.

I know that smell, as stated above it must be from creosote burning off. It smells like the old steam engines and tractors.

gg


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## salecker (Apr 1, 2013)

Have you looked into any diferent types of caps?
 There is one guy in town that moved up from BC and installed a wood stove in the house he bought.The new chimney has a cap that swivels around in the wind.Mabey something like that could swirl the air mixing the smoke up more.
 Thomas


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## rkusek (Apr 2, 2013)

I think I would add storage before next winter and only burn at night when it is unlikely anyone would be outside to smell it.


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## shawntitan (Apr 2, 2013)

Assumed this thread would be an April Fools joke... I'm a little disappointed...


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## rkusek (Apr 2, 2013)

I think another section of pipe and maybe "hiding" your wood pile might also be worthwhile.  Your neighbors may see that and attribute any smell in the area to your home.  I will say I have lived in a small town previously and had someone a couple blocks away that must have had an OWB(or similar) in his back yard garage.  It wouldn't alway have visible smoke but you could smell something 2 blocks away that just lingered.  I had the kids in the stroller one day and we searched until we found out which home it was but I saw the big pile of firewood long before I noticed a faint trail of smoke out of the chimney.


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

If it creosote burning off, the ONLY cresote I have is on the firebox walls. 
The secondary chamber of the WG is a refractory tube and never gets cresote. 
I have a straight section of flue and I never have cresote in there. 
I've pulled apart the two sections I have many times only to find a light grey powder on the walls that just blows off.
So it can only be the stuff melting and reburning within the firebox it self. 

Bottom line is ALL gasification systems have some sort of smell its just wether or not someone complains that makes the difference. 

My concern is I wanted to heat DHW during the summer and all though the winds will be opposite and affect him I may have a problem with people behind me :-(


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## maple1 (Apr 2, 2013)

Echo goosegunner & some others here - if you at all have any room for it, storage would help alleviate. Then you would only need to burn periodically, you could get into a schedule around when you want to burn (when he's sleeping?), and when you burn you will be burning at full speed with no coming off idle or 'waking up' so should see reduced emissions. It's not likely a quick easy fix though - but it should have benefits aside from pacifying the neighbour. ESPECIALLY if you're wanting to do DHW with it year round - then you'd only need a short fire every few days instead of maintaining a small fire all the time.


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## Fred61 (Apr 2, 2013)

Alot of good suggestions for Mike but you need to understand that testing the flue gas will give you a number but with the limited adjustment capabilities of the Wood Gun, there is not much you can change. After operating one for 8 plus years I know the situation and can tell you the unit will produce this odor when it's sparkling clean. I don't believe it is creosote burning off the fire chamber.

Mike You replied to my suggestion that the cap was not an obstruction but my take on it is that it is a baffle especially on a Wood Gun with it's high air flow. I suggest adding a section of pipe and remove or replace the cap for starters.

Summer operation in my opinion would be a no no unless everyone in your neighborhood cools mechanically instead of opening their windows.

As for the request to taking him out by backing over him. I checked my appointment calender and it appears that my schedule is too busy to take the job at this time


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## arngnick (Apr 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Bottom line is ALL gasification systems have some sort of smell its just wether or not someone complains that makes the difference.


 
Have you smelled every system availible?

Likely so... but I am sure there are some that are better than other and I would bet that systems that idle smell more.


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## woodsmaster (Apr 2, 2013)

I vote for storage. Then you can burn when he's sleeping or gone.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 2, 2013)

Or pour some of this down your flue every now and then

http://www.bigdind.com/product.aspx?id=BigD30


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

salecker said:


> Have you looked into any diferent types of caps?
> There is one guy in town that moved up from BC and installed a wood stove in the house he bought.The new chimney has a cap that swivels around in the wind.Mabey something like that could swirl the air mixing the smoke up more.
> Thomas


 
You mean one of these? http://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/cool-attic-12-in-galvanized-standard-wind-turbine/0000000004781

I wonder what effect that would have on the draft. 
Not that I think I have any real draft with only 10' of pipe. I think the fan pushes that exhaust right up and out.


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

shawntitan said:


> Assumed this thread would be an April Fools joke... I'm a little disappointed...


 

ME TOO !


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> As for the request to taking him out by backing over him. I checked my appointment calender and it appears that my schedule is too busy to take the job at this time


 
I'm willing to wait until your schedule opens up.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 2, 2013)

Maybe you need to give him something else to complain about. Something that you can cave in on to keep him happy. But he get's a reputation as the town crybaby.


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Or pour some of this down your flue every now and then
> 
> http://www.bigdind.com/product.aspx?id=BigD30


 
Interesting.

I was thinking of burning a bottle of Febreze with every load.


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

Hey Mike from maine.

What happened to your biomass 60 and whats a V-gun(L)
or are you just mocking us WG owners.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I was thinking of burning a bottle of Febreze with every load.


Maybe soak some wood chips in it and stuff them in your cyclone?


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Hey Mike from maine.
> 
> What happened to your biomass 60 and whats a V-gun(L)
> or are you just mocking us WG owners.


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/bitter-sweet-day-tearing-out-my-biomass-60.108366/


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Maybe soak some wood chips in it and stuff them in your cyclone?


 
Mmmm.... like mesquite... then I'll invite him over for dinner!


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Mmmm.... like mesquite... then I'll invite him over for dinner!


*Fire D After Fire Odor Control Liquid*

The most effective deodorant available for the removal of all odors associated with fires. Designed to be used full strength, this powerful liquid will also combat the odors of floods, decomposition and other sources. Best used in a thermal fogger. One ounce of Fire D will handle 1,000 cubic feet.


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

So of course since this incident last Thursday, I've been paying careful attention to HIS house.
I've noticed that he leaves his overhead garage door open ALL day and that he has a wall mounted AC unit on the inside wall of the garage.

So I'm sure if he would keep the door closed and put a cover on the AC unit he wouldn't have a problem.

Looks like I gotta go a knocking.


----------



## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

I Wonder if my neighbor posted this on The Weather Channel


----------



## heaterman (Apr 2, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Maybe you need to give him something else to complain about. Something that you can cave in on to keep him happy. But he get's a reputation as the town crybaby.


 

Yah! Like talk one of his upwind neighbors into installing an OWB. He'll forget about you in a heartbeat.


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## heaterman (Apr 2, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Incomplete combustion aside, these are my thoughts on the "acrid smell" from wood boilers in general. Stoves don't generally produce this smell due to the hotter surfaces in them. I think the non-wood like smells are from the tar formation in the combustion chaimber and them the ignition of this creosote during the burn process. Basically if you have some buildup after the secondary chiaimber (which wood gun is more prone to from my understanding) and it rekindles the fire and this stuff is vaporized your get the blackish smoke at worst or the smell and not much if any visible smoke at best. I've expieremneted by scraping off some of the flakey creosote in the upper chaimber and putting it in the the lower (freshly cleaned) chaimber and lighting a fire. The smell and non-wood like smoke is what comes out.
> 
> TS


You know Taylor.........you are probably on to something there. When I was at Windhager in Austria a few weeks ago, I noticed that their cord wood boiler had steel panels inside the firebox that stood off the actual sides of the water jacket. This would have the effect of insulating the water jacket walls in that area to avoid heavy buildup of creosote on them. It also allows the surface that "see's" the fire to attain much higher temperatures which I would assume helps to further elevate temperatures going into the secondary chamber for a cleaner burn. At the least it would prevent some of the solids from condensing in the relatively cool walls of the water jacket.


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## salecker (Apr 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> You mean one of these? http://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/cool-attic-12-in-galvanized-standard-wind-turbine/0000000004781
> 
> I wonder what effect that would have on the draft.
> Not that I think I have any real draft with only 10' of pipe. I think the fan pushes that exhaust right up and out.


No it's not that one,it has a tail like a weather vane.
 Thomas


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## BoilerMan (Apr 2, 2013)

Heaterman, to be completly honest, I've often wondered why someone doesn't design a boiler that is esentially an secondary baffled EPA stove inside a conventional water-jacketed boiler.  All combustion gasses would only see the hot steel which would be completly seperated by an air space (1/2" or something close) from the water cooled steel.  Basically a triple walled appliance:

Fire w/ simple secondary baffle (EPA stove),
Then hot steel (otuside of stove assy.)
Air space
Steel
Water
Steel
Insulation and boiler skin

I say all of thins because I've been very impressed with the simplicity of my EPA (Quadrafire Millenium) stove and how incredibly clean it burns with no birdging, primary or secondary air mixture issues, and simple firebrick on the bottom and sides.  I think this could incorporate a firetubed turbolated HX, but my stove operates very well with 300F stack temps and I have never cleaned the chimney in 4 years (about 4 cord total through the stove).  Always smoke free.  Just some thoughts.

TS


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## hiker88 (Apr 2, 2013)

heaterman said:


> View attachment 98576
> 
> 
> You know Taylor.........you are probably on to something there. When I was at Windhager in Austria a few weeks ago, I noticed that their cord wood boiler had steel panels inside the firebox that stood off the actual sides of the water jacket. This would have the effect of insulating the water jacket walls in that area to avoid heavy buildup of creosote on them. It also allows the surface that "see's" the fire to attain much higher temperatures which I would assume helps to further elevate temperatures going into the secondary chamber for a cleaner burn. At the least it would prevent some of the solids from condensing in the relatively cool walls of the water jacket.


 
What kind of boiler is that?  It looks almost the same as mine.  Froling calls the removable plates inside the primary "cladding plates".


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## infinitymike (Apr 2, 2013)

salecker said:


> No it's not that one,it has a tail like a weather vane.
> Thomas



Do you have a pic or link to the type you are referring to?


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## __dan (Apr 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> So of course since this incident last Thursday, I've been paying careful attention to HIS house.
> I've noticed that he leaves his overhead garage door open ALL day and that he has a wall mounted AC unit on the inside wall of the garage.
> 
> So I'm sure if he would keep the door closed and put a cover on the AC unit he wouldn't have a problem.
> ...


 

Hey Mike, I hope you give that some consideration. Do not tell him what to do, imo, it will only inflame the situation.

Legally, you may be in the clear burning cord wood, as long as there are no additives, regardless of the smoke. But it sounds like a sensitive situation. The neighbor will want his butt kissed, not his work list increased. In the end that's what you will have to depend on, your legality. His sensitivity to what he can smell could be anything, he could smell a barbecue at 200 ft. There could be no eliminating that, only mitigating measures.

Talked to my senile neighbor today, he called after getting tossed off my friend/neighbor's property. I listened and he complained his foyer was not wired and I said "get it inspected and sheet rock it" (which he disputed). He was reaching out, which is rare, and I was able to get my six ft. ladder and belt sander back from long term loan.

Have to add, he called the fire marshall who told him to call the health district, which he did. Cannot say more on a public board, but you guys who build surely have an idea..


----------



## shawntitan (Apr 2, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Heaterman, to be completly honest, I've often wondered why someone doesn't design a boiler that is esentially an secondary baffled EPA stove inside a conventional water-jacketed boiler.  All combustion gasses would only see the hot steel which would be completly seperated by an air space (1/2" or something close) from the water cooled steel.  Basically a triple walled appliance:
> 
> Fire w/ simple secondary baffle (EPA stove),
> Then hot steel (otuside of stove assy.)
> ...



Would something like this work? I've thought the same thing... Any 'engineering/smarter than me' guys have any thoughts on this? Obviously the heat transfer would be limited some by the air space, but by how much?


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## scooby074 (Apr 2, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Do you have a pic or link to the type you are referring to?


 
I think he's referring to these Spin AKA Wind caps. They're pretty common here due to high winds. http://www.icc-rsf.com/main.php?t=chem_produits&i=93&l=en


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## infinitymike (Apr 3, 2013)

scooby074 said:


> I think he's referring to these Spin AKA Wind caps. They're pretty common here due to high winds. http://www.icc-rsf.com/main.php?t=chem_produits&i=93&l=en


 

That looks like it would focus it directly at his house.


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## infinitymike (Apr 3, 2013)

__dan said:


> Hey Mike, I hope you give that some consideration. Do not tell him what to do, imo, it will only inflame the situation.
> 
> Legally, you may be in the clear burning cord wood, as long as there are no additives, regardless of the smoke. But it sounds like a sensitive situation. The neighbor will want his butt kissed, not his work list increased. In the end that's what you will have to depend on, your legality. His sensitivity to what he can smell could be anything, he could smell a barbecue at 200 ft. There could be no eliminating that, only mitigating measures.
> 
> ...


 

Thanks Dan, I did give it more consideration. I decided to let it be and see what happens.
I thought about going back to the town and speaking to the head plans examiner and requesting a permit which he originally said wasn't necessary or having him put it in writing that it isn't necessary. But again, I said lets not stir anything up.

Fortunately it is getting warmer and there will be less burning. And who knows maybe I won't heat DHW with wood this summer.

But there is still this consuming thought about next winter and what will happen then.

If there is anything that might help, I'm still willing to try it.


----------



## Tennman (Apr 3, 2013)

Sure seems that adding storage like suggested back on the first page of your thread would help the creosote and smell. Running an idling boiler now for 4 seasons, I have two clues when I need to go check my coal bed; 1) seeing any hint of bluish smoke or 2) any smell of the burn. Our house is downwind of the boiler virtually all the time about 120' from back door. When she's running hot and hard my old nose and the sensitive noses of the ladies can't tell it's there. At the moment I'm virtually burning all the time, potentially making smell. Next season, don't know if the burn time will 50% or 60% of the day, but it sure won't be 100% like it is now. Reducing daily burn time has to give you some flexibility in accommodating difficult neighbors. One 500 gal tank in hand, one to go. Sorry, best wishes.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 3, 2013)

hiker88 said:


> What kind of boiler is that? It looks almost the same as mine. Froling calls the removable plates inside the primary "cladding plates".


 
It's a Windhager that was set up in their training lab in Seekirchen Austria. I have a hunch we'll be seeing them here within a year.


----------



## 711mhw (Apr 3, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> That looks like it would focus it directly at his house.


 
No Mike, you screw that thing directly to his head!


----------



## infinitymike (Apr 3, 2013)

711mhw said:


> No Mike, you screw that thing directly to his head!


 
Or shove it some where else


----------



## infinitymike (Apr 3, 2013)

Tennman said:


> Running an idling boiler now for 4 seasons,


 
Ok so I don't want to make this another heated "WoodGun doesn't idle, yes it does" thread, but what exactly does it mean when you say you have been running an idling boiler for 4 years. 

How does the biomass work. For example the water temp is at it's set point limit. The house calls for heat, the water temp in the boiler begins to drop, when the water temp hits the differential setting on the aqua stat, the unit turns on? meaning the fan starts pulling/pushing  air and the embers which were sitting in the firebox smoldering begin to come to life and the fire becomes fully involved? Heating the water until it reaches its setpoint again where it will then shut off the fan and the fire will just smolder in the firebox? All along, whether the fan is on or off there is some sort of smoke or smell coming out of the stack? 

Just asking to become more educated on the way other units operate.


----------



## arngnick (Apr 4, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Ok so I don't want to make this another heated "WoodGun doesn't idle, yes it does" thread, but what exactly does it mean when you say you have been running an idling boiler for 4 years.
> 
> How does the biomass work. For example the water temp is at it's set point limit. The house calls for heat, the water temp in the boiler begins to drop, when the water temp hits the differential setting on the aqua stat, the unit turns on? meaning the fan starts pulling/pushing air and the embers which were sitting in the firebox smoldering begin to come to life and the fire becomes fully involved? Heating the water until it reaches its setpoint again where it will then shut off the fan and the fire will just smolder in the firebox? All along, whether the fan is on or off there is some sort of smoke or smell coming out of the stack?
> 
> Just asking to become more educated on the way other units operate.


 
I assume what you described is pretty much how the the WG operates. My old boiler idled about the same but the fan would kick on periodically to keep the coals hot so it could restart when there was a call for heat again.

From what I understand the difference is that the WG does not run the fan unless there is a call for heat. The WG relies on the large refractory to maintain enough heat to relight  while in idle mode.

FYI Websters dictionary definition of idle - not turned to normal or appropriate use. (So if it is not making heat it is idling)


----------



## __dan (Apr 4, 2013)

Mike, I would suggest two more things.

Contact the Woodgun factory, lay out the problem to them, and ask if there are any mitigating measures they can suggest. Or if there are any accessories that have been tested or are being tested to accommodate this situation. Do this in email and keep the written trail because in the future you may want to show you have been diligent about pursuing remedies and not ignoring, neglecting, the problem (even if there is no fix, play the game).

Second is get the wood boiler added in writing to your insurance policy. Your insurer will tell you what you need to do to comply. Do not mention the cranky neighbor, just the appliance. That way in the future if it gets litigated, your rights will be secure and your homeowners should take and defend your side. With no insurer, your could still prevail, but be crushed by the lawyer fees.

By convention, homes have been heated with wood burning since colonial times. Your heat is likely also a basic civil right you cannot be deprived of without recourse (US federal code 18-240's civil rights laws). You should be able to be secure in your rights even if it smokes, but you will have to comply with the conventions and codes as they are now.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

arngnick said:


> I assume what you described is pretty much how the the WG operates. My old boiler idled about the same but the fan would kick on periodically to keep the coals hot so it could restart when there was a call for heat again.
> 
> From what I understand the difference is that the WG does not run the fan unless there is a call for heat. The WG relies on the large refractory to maintain enough heat to relight while in idle mode.
> 
> FYI Websters dictionary definition of idle - not turned to normal or appropriate use. (So if it is not making heat it is idling)


 

EXACTLY


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 4, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Ok so I don't want to make this another heated "WoodGun doesn't idle, yes it does" thread,


 


arngnick said:


> The WG relies on the large refractory to maintain enough heat to relight while in idle mode.


 

I'm really trying hard here.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

__dan said:


> Mike, I would suggest two more things.
> 
> Contact the Woodgun factory, lay out the problem to them, and ask if there are any mitigating measures they can suggest. Or if there are any accessories that have been tested or are being tested to accommodate this situation. Do this in email and keep the written trail because in the future you may want to show you have been diligent about pursuing remedies and not ignoring, neglecting, the problem (even if there is no fix, play the game).
> 
> ...


 
Mmmm sounds like your a lawyer of some sort. Thanks.
I will contact AHS and see if there is any thing that can be done.

As far as the insurance goes, My carrier fully knows about the unit. They have pictures of the installation process and the entire set up as well as  invoices from the licensed contractors that did all the work, which  includes my license for some of the carpentry work.

The only thing I regret is not getting something in writing from the town when they said I don't need a permit. 
I'm sure they will have selective memory if it comes down to that.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> I'm really trying hard here.


 
Thanks


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> I'm really trying hard here.


 
Try really hard to find a real solution to making wood not smell when it burns.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 4, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Try really hard to find a real solution to making wood not smell when it burns.


If a tree burns when no one is awake to smell it does it make a smell?

Get some storage and burn at night.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> If a tree burns when no one is awake to smell it does it make a smell?.


 
Thats funny.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

Is the pool in the picture yours or the nieghbor's?
Is the fence line the boundary of your property?


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## maple1 (Apr 4, 2013)

So is storage an option in your situation?

It keeps getting suggested but you didn't say (I don't think) your thoughts on it re. your situation/layout. If you've ruled it out, maybe you could post that (maybe along with why), and then it won't keep being suggested.

It does keep being suggested though as it is a possible real solution to your problem - and would have side benefits for you aside from just appeasing your neighbours.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

http://www.outdoorfurnacefacts.com/wood-corn-heating-best-practices/best-burn-practices/index.html

I think the suggestions here for the chimney hieghts are interesting. I think that if we where all building new homes we would design accordingly. But retrofits to existing homes are really tough. They all require case specific considerations.
What I also found interesting is that all the EPA white tag OWB where approved as batch loads.
Which leans toward additional storage and batch burning in my mind.


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## hiker88 (Apr 4, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Is the pool in the picture yours or the nieghbor's?
> Is the fence line the boundary of your property?


 
I think I see where you are going here...


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## maple1 (Apr 4, 2013)

I'll throw in another thought on your chimney.

From what I've read, the Wood Gun pumps a lot of air throught itself so I'm assuming there's a bit of force behind what's coming out the top of your chimney. A cap would serve to deflect that force out sideways as soon as it hit the top of your chimney. If there was no cap there, all the force out the top would keep going up into the air with no restriction, aside from wind currents or whatever slowing effect the cooling outside air would have on it when it got out into the open.

I guess what that's trying to say is, try it with no cap for a while. Most of what's coming out the chimney might then get far enough up in the air to miss your neighbour. I'm not sure that would be a permanent solution though as personally I like having a cap on there to keep rain water out - but maybe there are caps available that aren't as restrictive to upward flow but would still keep most of the water out? Some of the ones that move around with the wind might help with that.


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## Tennman (Apr 4, 2013)

Mike, I really have no interest in engaging in the Gun discussion. But my experience with the BioMass has proven some solid fuel burning fundamentals to me. My first BioMass season we'll pretend didn't happen. The second, I was so excited because I thot I had found the secret to long burns, turn the fan waaay down (50-60% fan setting) to keep a smoldering, low energetic fire. I bragged extensively of how I had discovered the secret formula to extend loading to... maybe 6-8 hours. Not sure I mentioned back then how either my wife or I needed to go out and stir the coals and baby sit the boiler several times an hour due to bridging or blow holes (evidenced by wisps of smoke/smell). Started season 3 with the same approach but better seasoned wood. Mid-season discovered 80% fan kept the whole boiler/combustion area and coals hotter which required far less tending, but consequently more idling, but far less baby sitting. Season 4, 80% all season, the best seasoned wood so far, better coal bed maintenance, far less incidences of smoke/smell, and the far less baby sitting (not opening the upper door mid-burn). Finally for extended periods on cold days, read that minimal idling, I saw my gasification boiler operating when it was the happiest, least instance of hints of smoke, fewest instances of needing to open the upper door mid-burn, and longest periods of time observing just a shimmering wave of heat out the flue with a wisp of steam. Up until this year, I hated the thot of starting fires multiple times a day so didn't think storage was for me, but now I see the benefits of burning as hard and hot as possible, put the excess energy somewhere, and not think your can successfully throttle energy output of wood logs. I would bet that your idling time is similar to mine. I have a very inefficient large home in a more temperate climate. I'm certain your new construction is far more efficient in a far colder climate. On those very cold days when my boiler hardly idled, all I see is that shimmering out the stack and no scent. We are in the middle of a large tract of land so we are the only scent producer. I wish I had looked before I started this post. At this moment Nofossil has posted burn and storage plots of his system on another thread. After I post this reply I'll try to find it. You'll see from his plots, I'm working from memory, his burns each day are about 12 or less hours. This thread has many storage operators that can chime in how long their burns are. Probably more or less based on storage capacity, etc. Point is, your system like mine at the moment needs to keep some low level fire going all day long to respond to demand, no matter how infrequent, which will get far worse as shoulder season approaches. I've seen first hand how a hot, energetic coal bed minimizes basically pollution out the stack. I've read here that there are European countries or cities that operating a solid fuel boiler without storage is illegal. I see that as less of an efficiency issue and more of minimizing pollution in a densely populated area. I know if I was in a neighborhood the way my boiler has been operated over the last 4 years, I'd have lots of pissed off neighbors and I couldn't blame them. My bet is that on your very cold days, when your Gun is continuously pumping out the btus and staying hot, your neighbor probably doesn't know you have a boiler. It's on those days when it's more temperate and he's outside more, that all your neighbors know you burn wood. It's just me, but I'd go poll your other neighbors and I'll bet they've noticed the scent, it's just that they're more tolerant or less sensitive or they have less time on their hands. Sorry so long, but if the Gun blows products of combustion thru a coal bed, then you and I have very much in common regardless of all the humma humma Gun refractory, re-light blah blah that I care nothing about. Now I gotta go make money.


----------



## dogwood (Apr 4, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Fred61 said: ↑
> As for the request to taking him out by backing over him. I checked my appointment calender and it appears that my schedule is too busy to take the job at this time​I'm willing to wait until your schedule opens up.


 
Mike, if Fred is still too busy to take care of this business for you, I'll be visiting family in Huntington this summer and since you're both a "homey" and a fellow Hearth member .............................. No need to put in storage or a new chimney cap.


----------



## arngnick (Apr 4, 2013)

Tennman said:


> I've read here that there are European countries or cities that operating a solid fuel boiler without storage is illegal. I see that as less of an efficiency issue and more of minimizing pollution in a densely populated area.


I believe it is illegal to even idle a wood boiler in Sweden. That's likely why my boiler cannot idle. 

I burn about 8-10hrs a day with my storage. I remember saying I never on the storage topic but now I think its the only way to burn wood.

So is storage a possibility for you?


----------



## dogwood (Apr 4, 2013)

Maybe these Swedes need to be taken care of too.


----------



## Fred61 (Apr 4, 2013)

I think the one thing that has slipped from the minds of all the helpful people is that the Wood Gun puts out this odor at full burn. I think Mike agrees that idle or exiting idle is not the problem and if it were, the odor emmitted is more tolerable than the acrid sulpher smell that I assume the neighbor is complaining about. That is why I made the suggestion back in post #3 (I think) to remove the cap and add a length of pipe.

The one problem with removing the cap is that the smoke pipe location appears to to have lots of obstructions around it that would cause natural air currents to rise up over them and flow downward into the stack. Caps are installed for a couple reasons and one is to prevent downdrafts from the reason I just stated. A stack that is high enough will allow the exhaust to rise better and faster without a cap which would be a plus given the low stack temperatures.

At times when I'm out driving I notice people's chimneys and I can tell who has the hottest stack by the upward flow of the smoke before it dissapates. If removing the cap would solve the problem, I wouldn't worry about the rain. Tackle that challenge later.


----------



## Floydian (Apr 4, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> I think the one thing that has slipped from the minds of all the helpful people is that the Wood Gun puts out this odor at full burn.


 
Good point, Fred. Honestly this odor issue puzzles me as it is not something I have experienced. Like I said earlier, the only smell I get at full burn is a faint toasted wood smell. No sulfur/acrid smell ever.

All this points right back to incomplete combustion and storage is not going to solve things if that is the case. Tough situation until this aspect is solved, IMO.

Noah


----------



## Floydian (Apr 4, 2013)

dogwood said:


> Mike, if Fred is still too busy to take care of this business for you, I'll be visiting family in Huntington this summer and since you're both a "homey" and a fellow Hearth member .............................. No need to put in storage or a new chimney cap.


 


dogwood said:


> Maybe these Swedes need to be taken care of too.


 
Whoa Mike!

Don't forget about Garn, they are pretty against idling as well.

Noah


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

http://www.woodstove.com/pages/guidepdfs/Good_Chimney.pdf

Here is a good read from Woodstock


----------



## maple1 (Apr 4, 2013)

Even if there is a problem smell at full burn (something I've also not experienced), adding storage would cut the times you're actually burning at least in half (my experience - right now I'm only burning about 4 hours a day). The rest of the time your fire is OUT, so there is nothing to emit. Then you could schedule the burn for when it's most likely to not offend.

Ugly smell at full burn seems puzzling to me also. What is it about the Gun that makes it specific to it? Is it moving air through so fast it doesn't have a chance to burn completely? Can adjustments to fan speed, air openings etc. not be made to tune it out?

Regardless,simple chimney/cap mods are what I'd be doing right now for starters - quick & easy (& cheap) to try.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

"During the off cycle, wood gas inside the firebox condenses on the inner walls forming a solid that will eventually fall off. This combines with the remaining fuel thus adding energy that in many other boilers goes up the chimney." quote from wood gun web site

This "SOLID" I would think is creosote.


----------



## Fred61 (Apr 4, 2013)

Floydian said:


> Good point, Fred. Honestly this odor issue puzzles me as it is not something I have experienced. Like I said earlier, the only smell I get at full burn is a faint toasted wood smell. No sulfur/acrid smell ever.
> 
> All this points right back to incomplete combustion and storage is not going to solve things if that is the case. Tough situation until this aspect is solved, IMO.
> 
> Noah


 I was thinking after my last post that perhaps a diet change may solve the problem. I may be all wet but what I believe is happening is that at full burn, the oxygen is used up in the primary combustion and there is not enough left to completely combust (if that's a word) the gasses in the secondary since there is no means of supplying secondary air in Mike's boiler. Perhaps (dare I say it) adding wood with a little higher moisture content would make for a smaller fire which would then use  less combustion air in primary and allow more to flow to the secondary tube allowing all the gasses to ignite. There may be other odors that are emitted but the most offensive one to me was when my Wood Gun was fireing full bore. Other problems will arise with this "fix" but it sure beats abandoning the wood boiler in favor of oil.


----------



## Fred61 (Apr 4, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> "During the off cycle, wood gas inside the firebox condenses on the inner walls forming a solid that will eventually fall off. This combines with the remaining fuel thus adding energy that in many other boilers goes up the chimney." quote from wood gun web site
> 
> This "SOLID" I would think is creosote.


 I think the "other boilers" they're referring to don't include other gassers.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

Creosote burns with a unique smell and it burns hot. with a short stack on the chimney any applaince will have incomplete combustion. the distance to the diagonal nieghbor maybe less than the 100-150(300-450') yards as stated. but the stack hieght is lower than the residence not served by the appliance.


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## Floydian (Apr 4, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> "During the off cycle, wood gas inside the firebox condenses on the inner walls forming a solid that will eventually fall off. This combines with the remaining fuel thus adding energy that in many other boilers goes up the chimney." quote from wood gun web site This "SOLID" I would think is creosote.


 
Well, I am a bit dense but it seems to me this could be the cause of the sulfur/acrid smell as apposed to incomplete combustion of the wood load.

*IF *this is the case, then I take back my statement of storage not helping the situation as this scenario would point right at idling as the cause of the smell. I think this is what Taylor was getting at earlier but like a say I am a bit dense.....

I would think an easy way to put this to the test would be to thoroughly clean the upper chamber of the WG to eliminate the chunks o' creosote. Then make a fire and see if the smell changes or goes away.

Worth I shot,

Noah


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 4, 2013)

If he is burning to storage there would likely be no visible smoke just the smell. It would be much harder for the city/neighbor to pinpoint Mike as the smelly one if they never saw any smoke coming out the chimney.

Storage might not end the smell but it has a good chance of ending his problem.


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## Fred61 (Apr 4, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Creosote burns with a unique smell and it burns hot. with a short stack on the chimney any applaince will have incomplete combustion. the distance to the diagonal nieghbor maybe less than the 100-150(300-450') yards as stated. but the stack hieght is lower than the residence not served by the appliance.


 My Eko burns the creosote on the walls of the upper chamber. I know it is burning because any deposit with any amount of thickness is crumbly. I burn to storage and burn very hot but I have never gotten that odor from it. I do agree, however that storage is worth a try since it has so many other merits it would.'t be a waste of money.


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## goosegunner (Apr 4, 2013)

I would also stop burning any of the pallet blocks that are compressed wood.

gg


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

I believe storage is the best answer long term. Many air reciever tanks are available on long island.

As well as or before adding storage. I would recomend checking draft in the pipe as is while burning full bore. I would also check the temperature of the chimney pipe/exhaust in several places(bottom/middle/top). I believe you will find that it is not sufficent @ only 12' in length. thus not allowing air to be introduced into the burn chamber.
Then add two sections of 3' pipe with no cap and repeat test. If test is better add cap and retest.
My 2 cents for cheap solution.


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## maple1 (Apr 4, 2013)

Is chimney length really that big a factor though in getting enough air for proper burn in the burn chamber with a unit with such a forceful forced draft as the Gun?

You can do a short horizontal pipe out of a Garn & I've never read about these kinds of issues with those.


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## scooby074 (Apr 4, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> That looks like it would focus it directly at his house.


 
Smoke the bugger out


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## scooby074 (Apr 4, 2013)

Does anybody really believe that burning at nite will change things?

I think this neighbor got a bee in his bonnet over this boiler and no matter what he's going to find a way to complain.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 4, 2013)

scooby074 said:


> Does anybody really believe that burning at nite will change things?
> 
> I think this neighbor got a bee in his bonnet over this boiler and no matter what he's going to find a way to complain.


 

Most 'nuisance' burning ordinances are written to limit the amount of 'visible smoke'  or 'excessive smoke' or if they want to get really technical they limit the 'opacity level' of the smoke for x number of minutes.  So burning to storage, which means very little smoke, should satisfy the local ordinances. It's doubtful that there are any laws regarding the smell of a wood burning appliance on the books. And if there aren't any all Mike has to do is comply with the  rules regarding smoke output. His neighbor would be able to complain all he wants and nothing would happen.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

March 28th was 50 degrees if I remember correctly so the unit was probably in idle(suffication). That would mean there was little to no call for heat. thus the fan would be off. The smoke then has to exit by natural draft if the pipe is short?
So if you cut of the oxygen then the fire will scavange anywhere it can find it. most likely pulling the smoke back through the chimney. I am willing to bet that you could put your hand on the chimney as exhaust burns cool with less oxygen.

I would recomend reading the link from Woodstock about the chimney. It is right on the money. The chimney on all wood burning appliances is critical to the design efficiency of the appliance. I could not find a manual online for the woodgun to see what they recomend for chimney but I know from experience that interior is better than exterior for draft. If i take a great stove with a 8" flue and restrict to 6" chimney I can line the chimney with creosote and reduce the output of the stove considerably.

Of course you have the ethical design considerations with an install such as this one. This ethical challange is documented in the best practice method in OWB industry. It also discusses timing of refueling vaguely. I instantly thought does this mean my conveince for reloading or timing for emissions as to not be offensive.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Is chimney length really that big a factor though in getting enough air for proper burn in the burn chamber with a unit with such a forceful forced draft as the Gun? You can do a short horizontal pipe out of a Garn & I've never read about these kinds of issues with those.


 

The Garn was not designed to idle. 

This boiler would be simliar if the fire where to burn out as is being suggested by adding storage.

I can not find on the wood gun site, but it appears the fan is pulling air through the firebox? Is there a draft inducing fan on the exhaust?


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## Fred61 (Apr 4, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> The Garn was not designed to idle.
> 
> This boiler would be simliar if the fire where to burn out as is being suggested by adding storage.
> 
> I can not find on the wood gun site, but it appears the fan is pulling air through the firebox? Is there a draft inducing fan on the exhaust?


 It  has a large centrifugal fan within the unit that draws combustion air through the firebox and through the tubes snd sends it out thru the cyclone. You were so "matter of fact" about your fixes I would have thought you would know how the unit is designed. If you do find a schematic of the design you will probably not be so sure your changes will work and that flue temperature at different points will have little effect on the operation. I can tell you are very knowledgeable on most systems but the Wood Gun is a totally different beast.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)




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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 4, 2013)

I am still thinking it needs a natural draft to aid this blower fan. even with a fan blowing, without a draft it is like closing the window.  The advertisement discusses the low flue temp. I was curious about this because low flue temp and idling is not usually good in my experience.
I would love to disassemble a unit and see how it looks after a few seasons. I do not have one.
A picture of the inside of the "swirl chamber" would be interesting. Seems to me this would be where the majority of the exhaust cooling takes place and the air flow is redirected to the exhaust cyclone ash collector(which i believe is not powered by electric?). I am curious if the swirl chamber is clear of creosote?

Question: the unit shuts down the air intake and fan when not calling for heat by the damper in the rear? Then where does the smoke/gas go? can it escape naturally or does it sit in the main chamber and find its way to the swirl chamber?

the hot fire will not want to shut down so it will burn and scavange it until it is out. where will the biproduct of combustion go if the fan needs to be on for draft?

The pictures show creosote on the cap but the explanation describes a clean pipe with just ash or flakey residue. this again makes me think of a draft problem as the cap would then be very cool thus allowing creosote to stick.

The length of chimney verses draft is a matter of fact. What works with this unit is the question I posed earlier dealer may have information or the manual.

Adding lengths to chimney will certainly be the cheapest solution and easy to try. I do not run a cap on insulated class A pipe as they usually clog. I have fabricated a flat cover and attached about 1' higher then end off pipe for rain.

Just my experience.


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## Fred61 (Apr 4, 2013)

The swirl chamber is easy to access. Just unscrew the nuts securing the fan and motor assembly. I always peeked in there every year during the final cleaning and found it surprisingly clean. I believe the swirl chamber and the steel tubes despite a small amount of ash laying in the bottom stayed clean as a result of the scrubbing by  the rapid movement of ash laden gas that actually "scrubs" the walls. (and wears the refractory) I would say it's a pretty wild environment.

Wnen the unit goes into idle it closes up quite tightly assuming the door gaskets are in good shape so It takes quite a while for the gasses to dissipate out the stack.

I believe adding lengths to the stack will help but only to bring the exhaust higher in the air, hoping the odor will clear the neighbor's nose. Not all caps plug. I just went through 6 months of burning and the cap on my stack is clear and a finish that looks like chrome plating after it is removed form the plating reactor which is a shiny transparent charcoal gray.


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## scooby074 (Apr 4, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Most 'nuisance' burning ordinances are written to limit the amount of 'visible smoke' or 'excessive smoke' or if they want to get really technical they limit the 'opacity level' of the smoke for x number of minutes. So burning to storage, which means very little smoke, should satisfy the local ordinances. It's doubtful that there are any laws regarding the smell of a wood burning appliance on the books. And if there aren't any all Mike has to do is comply with the rules regarding smoke output. His neighbor would be able to complain all he wants and nothing would happen.


 
Thanks for the clarification.

We have no rules like that here as evidenced by the number of "old skool" Wood Doctors that regularly idle all day belching TONS of smoke. In one sense Im glad we don't have rules and in another, when I have do drive through the cloud, I kinda wish we did


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## 711mhw (Apr 4, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> I think the one thing that has slipped from the minds of all the helpful people is that the Wood Gun puts out this odor at full burn.


 
I do not yet have the 8 years with the WG that Fred has, yet, but I do not find this odor at a "full burn". It does seem to be a start up/shut down (mostly start up) thing in my use. My quess that at startup, the reintroduction of air along with the fan draft pulling, without the aid of the fire roaring yet, throws out these unburnt gasses that stink. As Mike, and Fred kinda mentioned, everything below the firebox is only dusty/ash(y) with no creosote at all. My question is can hot air (smoke/fumes) ever fall or not rise? With a creosote free enviroment at a level in the WG that is at or equal level to allow these fumes to rise through the cyclone? In other words the firebox/creosote is about 2' above the exit elevation @ the cyclone.


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## heaterman (Apr 4, 2013)

Somebody from Woodgun should chime in here. Really.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Is the pool in the picture yours or the nieghbor's?
> Is the fence line the boundary of your property?


The pool is on my property and the fence is just around the pool.
I was try to show the stack in relation to the rest of the house and how dumb it would look if I raised it anymore than it already is.

The complaining neighbor is across the street behind the trees. (the last picture)


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

maple1 said:


> So is storage an option in your situation?
> 
> It keeps getting suggested but you didn't say (I don't think) your thoughts on it re. your situation/layout. If you've ruled it out, maybe you could post that (maybe along with why), and then it won't keep being suggested.
> 
> It does keep being suggested though as it is a possible real solution to your problem - and would have side benefits for you aside from just appeasing your neighbours.


 

I am absolutely in FAVOR of storage. I originally bought the wood gun thinking that I didn't _need _storage. I hadn't been a member of Hearth.com more then a week when I ordered the unit and then as time went on and I read more here, I realized what storage really does and what a benefit it has. But I didnt have the money or the time to make that happen.

I cant get any tanks into the basement nor do I want to take up the room.
Since the WG is in the garage, My solution for storage is to cut the slab open and dig a mechanics pit and lower a 1000 gallon tank.
The pit would be insulated and would have removable decking to inspect or work on the tank.

Its actually a real easy plumbing set up as well.
I just run the supply/return from the WG right into the pit and  I just tie into the supply/return for the injection loop that is in the basement. Those lines already come out into the garage.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> http://www.outdoorfurnacefacts.com/wood-corn-heating-best-practices/best-burn-practices/index.html
> 
> I think the suggestions here for the chimney hieghts are interesting. I think that if we where all building new homes we would design accordingly. But retrofits to existing homes are really tough. They all require case specific considerations.
> What I also found interesting is that all the EPA white tag OWB where approved as batch loads.
> Which leans toward additional storage and batch burning in my mind.


 

I like the info on that link.

I would hate to do that because it is going to be absolutely ridiculous looking.
It would be another 30 feet higher than it is already and would look like a big phallic symbol. And I just ain't to cool with that.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

hiker88 said:


> I think I see where you are going here...


 
Where?


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

dogwood said:


> Mike, if Fred is still too busy to take care of this business for you, I'll be visiting family in Huntington this summer and since you're both a "homey" and a fellow Hearth member .............................. No need to put in storage or a new chimney cap.


 
Hey thats great. I'm in Northport just 10 minutes from Huntington. C'mon over, even if its not to take of any business, we can at least shoot the willy bobo.


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## infinitymike (Apr 4, 2013)

The smell is extremely apparent when the unit comes out of idle or dormant mode.
Upon a full boar burn ( good gasification and only heat shimmers from stack)  there maybe a faint whisper of a smell. 

Like 711mhw said there is no way for any hot air to exit the WG when it is in idle/dormant/off mode becuase the fan is off and the exhaust pipe that connect to the cyclone ash collector which connects to the stack is 2 feet below the fire box, no way for a natural draft to occur.
Therefore, there is NO smell of ANYTHING when the unit is in idle/dormant/off mode.


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

goosegunner said:


> I would also stop burning any of the pallet blocks that are compressed wood.
> 
> gg


 
That was just an experimental fuel source that I am not pursueing. I posted in that thread that the pallet factory gave me two 4'x4'x4' bins of broken SOLID wood blocks and pieces of pallets.  The problem with them,  is that just a small amount of that wood creates a lot of puffing.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Like 711mhw said there is no way for any hot air to exit the WG when it is in idle/dormant/off mode becuase the fan is off and the exhaust pipe that connect to the cyclone ash collector which connects to the stack is 2 feet below the fire box, no way for a natural draft to occur. Therefore, there is NO smell of ANYTHING when the unit is in idle/dormant/off mode.


 
Ok then! so when you call for heat fan turns on.
fan serves two functions.
1.)pulls air in(question? outside air?)
2.)pushes exhaust out

so with a full firebox full of smoke first order of business is to purge old smoke simultaneously with pulling in air.

Purging smoke into a cold chimney from roof line out is like hitting a wall. you now have ignition in the box and system is is warming up. once the chimney warms wala You now just shot the potato out out of the gun. this I bet is a good charge of smoke/gas. half of which is from an incomplete burn(old smoke) and quarter of which is with incomplete burn from start up. the other quarter is from the hotgas from an almost complete combustion. In my experience the last quarter is what is doing the work to heat your chimney to allow the fan to push through this wall.

now in the old days to avoid this charge of smoke to enter the house. you light a piece of paper and put in clean out and it warmed the air just enough to allow you to crack the front door or air control and slowly the smoke would rise.
If my theory is correct then I would suggest a hair dryer/heat gun placed in the pipe just below the cieling and wire it so it comes on a minute or two before the unit turns on its cyclone fan.
Another way to warm the pipe is to wrap the external portion with electric heat tape.

This is my theory and is not fact.


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## hiker88 (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Where?


 
Pool as a buffer maybe, or heated in the summer when you want to make dhw.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> I think I see where you are going here...​ Where?


 

I was was just concerned for summer DHW use. If this was not yours.


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## Fred61 (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Like 711mhw said there is no way for any hot air to exit the WG when it is in idle/dormant/off mode becuase the fan is off and the exhaust pipe that connect to the cyclone ash collector which connects to the stack is 2 feet below the fire box, no way for a natural draft to occur. Therefore, there is NO smell of ANYTHING when the unit is in idle/dormant/off mode​


 I'm not saying that this is the problem but I have to ask one question. When the unit shuts down and the compartment is full of gasses (you know the ones that explode upon short termed re-light) where do you suppose they go? I doubt they are re-absorbed by the charred wood left in the chamber.


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## avc8130 (Apr 5, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Somebody from Woodgun should chime in here. Really.


 
Ha!  They were chased off these forums years ago by an angry mob with pitch forks and torches.  Apparently claiming what an independent test lab certified is frown upon around these parts.

ac


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> I'm not saying that this is the problem but I have to ask one question. When the unit shuts down and the compartment is full of gasses (you know the ones that explode upon short termed re-light) where do you suppose they go? I doubt they are re-absorbed by the charred wood left in the chamber.


 
Fred61: This "short termed re-light" would be the scavanging I mentioned. Good question though. where does it go?


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Ok then! so when you call for heat fan turns on.
> fan serves two functions.
> 1.)pulls air in(question? outside air?)
> 2.)pushes exhaust out
> ...



Yes that is exactly what happens. Upon a start up after idle a big plume of smoke will purge out. 
Then usually in short order the smoke is gone and there is only heat shimmers.


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## avc8130 (Apr 5, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> I'm not saying that this is the problem but I have to ask one question. When the unit shuts down and the compartment is full of gasses (you know the ones that explode upon short termed re-light) where do you suppose they go? I doubt they are re-absorbed by the charred wood left in the chamber.


 
Gremlin snack


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

so potentially you have 30 cubic feet of exhaust from cieling down.
trying to exit all at once into a cold environment with only 4.71 cubic feet of volume.


firebox alone is 6.5 cubic feet


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

http://www.woodstove.com/pages/guidepdfs/Good_Chimney.pdf

This read I suggested is one of the best explanations of the chimney's function that I have read.


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## Fred61 (Apr 5, 2013)

You don't think the draft (suction) of that length of stack is powerful enough to draw gasses down through the firetubes?


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

the Chimney has no air to balance to maintain the draft once the intake air damper is shut.

I would guess from the pictures of these units I have seen,that the stain on the top of door is from a gasket leak. And that the need for an exhaust fan Ive seen on some is the result of the exiting smoke from idle. most would fill the stove when it is cold?
Barometric damper would help during idle but  you would need to cover it when the unit fired back up to prevent cyclone fan from pushing smoke into building.
I do not like barometrics on wood fired units for that reason.


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## Fred61 (Apr 5, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> the Chimney has no air to balance to maintain the draft once the intake air damper is shut.
> 
> I would guess from the pictures of these units I have seen,that the stain on the top of door is from a gasket leak. And that the need for an exhaust fan Ive seen on some is the result of the exiting smoke from idle. most would fill the stove when it is cold?
> Barometric damper would help during idle but you would need to cover it when the unit fired back up to prevent cyclone fan from pushing smoke into building.
> I do not like barometrics on wood fired units for that reason.


 Theoretically you're right but in actual practice there has to be enough air infiltration somewhere in order to clear the interrior of the gasses, otherwise there would be an explosion even 10 ir 15 minutes after shut down which is not the case.


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## Fred61 (Apr 5, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Gremlin snack


 Gives him gas


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> Theoretically you're right but in actual practice there has to be enough air infiltration somewhere in order to clear the interrior of the gasses, otherwise there would be an explosion even 10 ir 15 minutes after shut down which is not the case.


 
Fred61: from what I can see there is no air once the damper is shut. Hence sufficating the fire. The fuel source can't be removed,the heat or ignition source is present,but you are lacking oxygen. I believe you need all three for spotaneanous combustion. a few pops here and there when it scavanges the available oxygen is all that appears to happen. Im not confident that the interior gasses are removed until the system has a call for heat(oxygen in) and then the potato shoots out of the gun.


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## arngnick (Apr 5, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Fred61: from what I can see there is no air once the damper is shut. Hence sufficating the fire. The fuel source can't be removed,the heat or ignition source is present,but you are lacking oxygen. I believe you need all three for spotaneanous combustion. a few pops here and there when it scavanges the available oxygen is all that appears to happen. Im not confident that the interior gasses are removed until the system has a call for heat(oxygen in) and then the potato shoots out of the gun.


What happens if you open the door and introduce oxygen...


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

Theoretically speaking. the smoke would exit the door(chimney) and oxygen would be introduced and the fire could spontainously ignite.
We know that the smoke escapes as the you tube video of the 180 has an exhaust hood.
Sorry to hijack this thread I have been curious of this model since I first saw and read advertisement. All out burning for this unit seems very satisfactory from what I have read. The idling"hybernation" is what has me curious.
I am very curious to hear any feedback for recommended chimney system for this unit.


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## muncybob (Apr 5, 2013)

This thread has been an interestng read and I hope Mike get's his situation resolved. Honestly, until this popped up I have not paid much attention to my chimney cap other than to note that during start up there is smoke and that it soon dimishes to almost nothing.
Yesterday I was in the yard doing the usual spring clean up and paid attention to the chimney while out in the yard....paying particular attention to the end of the burn. I noticed that there is a wisp of smoke coming from the chimney up to 5 minutes after the the boiler is off. The smoke is a darker color. My chimney is about 35' high and has a very good draft so am I seeing some of the gasses? This smoke looks exaclty like what I see for the first minute or so when the boiler initially turns on again.
I'm still not following this "acrid smell" situation as I just don't have any smell other than a bit of a smoke smell, something to do with a taller chimney and strong draft?...or I'm just lucky


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## avc8130 (Apr 5, 2013)

arngnick said:


> What happens if you open the door and introduce oxygen...


 
HADOUKEN!

ac


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

muncybob said:


> My chimney is about 35' high and has a very good draft


 
so your chimney volume is 27-28 cubic feet?  very close to my approximation of 30 cubic feet earlier. interesting!


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## avc8130 (Apr 5, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Theoretically speaking. the smoke would exit the door(chimney) and oxygen would be introduced and the fire could spontainously ignite.
> We know that the smoke escapes as the you tube video of the 180 has an exhaust hood.
> Sorry to hijack this thread I have been curious of this model since I first saw and read advertisement. All out burning for this unit seems very satisfactory from what I have read. The idling"hybernation" is what has me curious.
> I am very curious to hear any feedback for recommended chimney system for this unit.


 
Correct, the smoke exits the door because the unit's fan does not have enough power to suck ALL of the exhaust gases from a raging fire down through the coals when the door is opened and all of that excess oxygen is presented.

The door is higher than the intake, so it becomes the "chimney".

AHS provides a "smoke flap".  All this does is attempt to get the intake above the door and provide more volume for the smoke to build up into before billowing out.  

All of this is only an issue during "hot" reloads.  If reloads are timed properly, and just coals remain, this is not an issue.

ac


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## Fred61 (Apr 5, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> HADOUKEN!
> 
> ac


 How do you like NE WOOD'S answer on that question?


arngnick said:


> What happens if you open the door and introduce oxygen...


 Eyebrows actually grow back quite rapidly


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

"Like "Street Fighter" itself, the current hadouken trend seems to have originated in Japan, and some predict it will be the next Tebowing. You can be an early adopter! Make sure you do before it goes stale."


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## avc8130 (Apr 5, 2013)

What I think is happening when the unit DOESN'T explode on re-ignition, is that the gasses have actually cooled down to below their auto-ignition temp.  So adding oxygen doesn't result in an instantaneous explosion because there isn't enough heat energy left.  Remember, the wood gas can be approximated by "air".  Air has a very low specific heat and cools very quickly. 

ac


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

"Spontaneous re-ignition of the wood will occur after an off period of 2-4 hours
Re-ignition is dependent on the refractory temperatures." from wood gun literature

yes I agree. The gas turns to solid on the cool surfaces. the ignition source that is being provided by this system is the refractory heat retention.

My experience with higher moisture content wood is that when you sufficate it to get longer burn times it creates a full (firebox to damper) volume of smoke/gas. still possible for a severe blow back in my mind. Could blow in a horizontal pipe as shown in prevoius threads could just happen anywhere once a source of oxygen is found.
maybe a flue out of the main chamber with a damper control bypass would eliminate the need for a smoke hood.


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

There has been a lot of good stuff said here. Some of it has gone to the usual "bash the Wood Gun banter" but hey we Wood Gun guys can handle the haters. But all in all there has been a lot of good info shared here. I mean maybe I live under a wood pile but I never heard of hadoukening before and now I have one more useful tidbit to share with others!


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

NE WOOD, 

Do you run a gasifier?


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

Like I said before, ALL gasifiers cause some smell, and No I haven't smelled all units but listen we are burning wood and there has to be some level of odor, fume, smoke, release of particulants.... To what level that is is a huge variable based on many different factors.

It was said earlier that this guy may just be super sensitive and just one of those people who need to make a stink (no pun intended)

Some of the ideas will take a good amount of money and may have no effect. Leaving me with less money and no benefit ie: added more SS pipe.
Some will take a good amount of money and may have no effect yet have a benefit to me ie: storage.

Unfortunately I have to be the lab rat here and report back my findings.

Lets keep thinking this through.

I think that the cheapest solution would be one of those wind turbine caps. Maybe that will cause a vortex and the smoke/smell will just spin away like a tornado.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 5, 2013)

Mike,
I do not. I am researching and saving$ for one in the future. I have burned wood solely for heat since 1976. Have rebuilt and delivered many wood/coal furnaces and  stoves in the past. I have filled many OWB for nieghbors when they vacation.
I am not in any way bashing the woodgun I am intrigued by the method of trying to control the fuel source. which has always been the dilema in wood burning. 

The wood gasification furnace to me is much like an internal combustion engine. computers can control all of the elements now. But when something goes wrong its usually the basics that are an issue  spark/fuel/compression/clogged cat

The woodgun you have appears to be running as designed. with the neighbor's complaint It has brought to light is it running 100%. I question the draft of your 10'chimney only because I believe the added natural draft may reduce the huge puff on reignition. A warm chimney may reduce the amount of initial smoke coming out also.


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## avc8130 (Apr 5, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> maybe a flue out of the main chamber with a damper control bypass would eliminate the need for a smoke hood.


 
Yup...that's how most other designs do it...


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## arngnick (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Like I said before, ALL gasifiers cause some smell, and No I haven't smelled all units but listen we are burning wood and there has to be some level of odor, fume, smoke, release of particulants.... To what level that is is a huge variable based on many different factors.
> 
> It was said earlier that this guy may just be super sensitive and just one of those people who need to make a stink (no pun intended)
> 
> ...



I think the cheapest thing to try that has been suggested is to take the cap off. I run mine without a chimney cap. 

I never see anything but water vapor with my boiler unless I have bridging going on which is rare. I will climb up on my roof at the different stages if the burn to smell my exhaust directly as I cannot smell anything on the ground. I will report back...


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## Fred61 (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> There has been a lot of good stuff said here. Some of it has gone to the usual "bash the Wood Gun banter" but hey we Wood Gun guys can handle the haters. But all in all there has been a lot of good info shared here. I mean maybe I live under a wood pile but I never heard of hadoukening before and now I have one more useful tidbit to share with others!


 I was only trying to help but my sympathy for your plight seems to have come to an abrupt halt. Your Wood Gun is doing the talking for me now.


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## 711mhw (Apr 5, 2013)

arngnick said:


> What happens if you open the door and introduce oxygen...


 There is a manual  "purge cycle" timer/switch & a green light that indicates the "ok to open" All this does is to turn the boiler back on, ie; turns the fan on & opens the air door. Multiple warnings and stickers are provided along with the green "go" light to avoid the need to re-grow your eyebrows.


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> I was only trying to help but my sympathy for your plight seems to have come to an abrupt halt. Your Wood Gun is doing the talking for me now.



Fred. I appreciate your help and I never said you were the one who has been bashing the WG. (At least not on this thread)
I said some of the stuff said was the typical bashing banter. Your 8 years of WG experience sounds a hellava lot worse then anyone else has ever expressed. This smelly thing is only a bad experience for my neighbor. It doesn't bother me in the least. 
What bothers me is that he is bothered by it. I'm not one who likes to annoy people, especially people I need to live near. 

All the other things that you may have considered to be a bad experience don't effect me either. 
My house is warm and water is hot.  But with that said I am openminded enough to believe that if I switched to another unit I may find that I was having a bad experience. So until then I will hope that this is the least of my bad experience.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> Some of it has gone to the usual "bash the Wood Gun banter"


Are you familiar with godwin's law?

Probably could add a corollary law about the woodgun:

Any thread about a woodgun, if long enough, will involve gremlins; and will question whether fire can be turned on and off by a large mass of cement.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> I cant get any tanks into the basement nor do I want to take up the room. Since the WG is in the garage, My solution for storage is to cut the slab open and dig a mechanics pit and lower a 1000 gallon tank. The pit would be insulated and would have removable decking to inspect or work on the tank.


 

Sounds like a cover story to me. Like any of us  believe this mysterious 'smell' is real and you aren't building a hidden lair for the woodgun underground.


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## maple1 (Apr 5, 2013)

I'll echo arngnick - the only things I see coming out my chimney are some steam in colder weather, and some smoke if I get bridging which has not happened very often.

I did go through a few episodes where I got some smoke on startup for a while but that has gone away with refinement of my firelighting & startup procedures - it was mainly due to loading right up with too many small splits when I made a new fire, which released too much wood gas & whatever else gets released when wood burns for the amount of air that could get into the fire and the lack of coal bed. Now I only load half full max on startup and reload full after an hour or so - happy happy happy purple/blue flame pretty well all the way through. The natural draft likely plays a part in all that (letting the fire build right) - and also, once the fire gets started, it burns wide open until it is all burned out. No chance of any stop/start smoke emissions there - which I think is where most of the Gun emissions are coming from.


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## avc8130 (Apr 5, 2013)

Smell is real.  Mine does it.  It also heats my house.





mikefrommaine said:


> Sounds like a cover story to me. Like any of us believe this mysterious 'smell' is real and you aren't building a hidden lair for the woodgun underground.


 
If this "underground" existed, why would Mike continue to feed the outsiders WG issues?  Just so a guy 1k miles away, with a completely different boiler and NO 1sthand WG experience could bust his chops?  

He is from LI...so this might actually be the case.

ac


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 5, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Smell is real. Mine does it. It also heats my house.
> 
> If this "underground" existed, why would Mike continue to feed the outsiders WG issues? Just so a guy 1k miles away, with a completely different boiler and NO 1sthand WG experience could bust his chops?
> 
> ...


 
I just observe I don't try to understand.


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Are you familiar with godwin's law?
> 
> Probably could add a corollary law about the woodgun:
> 
> Any thread about a woodgun, if long enough, will involve gremlins; and will question whether fire can be turned on and off by a large mass of cement.


Interesting that you referenced Godwin's law. You mean Mike Godwin. And your are mike from Maine.
Sounds like a cover up. You must be the real Mike Godwin.


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

arngnick said:


> I think the cheapest thing to try that has been suggested is to take the cap off. I run mine without a chimney cap.
> 
> I never see anything but water vapor with my boiler unless I have bridging going on which is rare. I will climb up on my roof at the different stages if the burn to smell my exhaust directly as I cannot smell anything on the ground. I will report back...


 
How much rain water do you get in the pipe without a cap?


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Smell is real. Mine does it. It also heats my house.
> 
> If this "underground" existed, why would Mike continue to feed the outsiders WG issues? Just so a guy 1k miles away, with a completely different boiler and NO 1sthand WG experience could bust his chops?
> 
> ...


 
Yeah!  What he said!


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## infinitymike (Apr 5, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Sounds like a cover story to me. Like any of us believe this mysterious 'smell' is real and you aren't building a hidden lair for the woodgun underground.


 
If there really was an underground this would be the official T-shirt


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## arngnick (Apr 5, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> How much rain water do you get in the pipe without a cap?


 
Not sure...I do not have any issues with it though. It is a masonry chimney so the water that does get in will just fall to the bottom and drain through the cleanout.

If I were you I would give it a try...what do you have to lose? If it works and water becomes an issue you know you need a cap with better upward flow.


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## arngnick (Apr 6, 2013)

arngnick said:


> I think the cheapest thing to try that has been suggested is to take the cap off. I run mine without a chimney cap.
> 
> I never see anything but water vapor with my boiler unless I have bridging going on which is rare. I will climb up on my roof at the different stages if the burn to smell my exhaust directly as I cannot smell anything on the ground. I will report back...


 
So an update on what I found...

5 mins after I got up on the roof and I could see a little smoke and witin 10ft I could smell  normal woodsmoke odor.

15 mins later I ran back up and I was able to smell it when I held my head over the chimney. Very faint smoke.

45 min semi heavy white smoke that felt moist when I put my hand in the vapor. Still slight odor ( I am standing

1 hr I checked again and there was just the heat shimering. The exhaust does have some odor but I nearly have to stick my head in the chimney.

It is smokeless until it goes out.

This is with burning wood that average MC of about 25%. (I know not ideal)
This fire was started with a cold chimney so it took a little while to warm things up. Normally I burn 2 fires a day and everything is still warm.


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## infinitymike (Apr 6, 2013)

arngnick said:


> So an update on what I found...
> 
> 5 mins after I got up on the roof and I could see a little smoke and witin 10ft I could smell  normal woodsmoke odor.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the report. Sounds like you got it working well for you.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 6, 2013)

Quote from a gasser manufacturer:"Chimney Inducer-To provide the draft needed for complete combustion"

Link to show example:
http://www.northlineexpress.com/fir...ssories/smoking-fireplace/draft-inducers.html

Mike,
Only trying to be helpful.
If you do not want to add length to chimney.
I would give this a shot.
Every appliance needs a draft. gasser or not.

No beef with Long Island here!


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## infinitymike (Apr 6, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Quote from a gasser manufacturer:"Chimney Inducer-To provide the draft needed for complete combustion"
> 
> Link to show example:
> http://www.northlineexpress.com/fir...ssories/smoking-fireplace/draft-inducers.html
> ...


 
NE WOOD, 
Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.
Thats why I continue to come back to this forum, it's full of very helpful and experienced people.

What I'm confused about is how more draft will help the combustion in the WG.
It has a powerful fan right at the bottom of the unit that pulls smoke in from the top air intake but also pushes exhaust out into the cyclone ash collector.
I would think that with my short stack that the fan is pushing it right out of the top.
But hey what  do I know, I've only been burning wood to heat my house for two years, I am greener then the grass in the summertime.
Like I said thats why I keep coming here, so that I can get more seasoned. HA HA I said green and seasoned HA HA


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## woodsmaster (Apr 6, 2013)

This is why I live in B.F.E. Hope that helped. LOL


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## infinitymike (Apr 6, 2013)

woodsmaster said:


> This is why I live in B.F.E. Hope that helped. LOL


 
It did, I want to move to BFE even if I don't know what the E stands for. I assume Bum F... E?


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## woodsmaster (Apr 6, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> It did, I want to move to BFE even if I don't know what the E stands for. I assume Bum F... E?


 
E = Egypt
Recently heard someone say "tall fences make good neighbors", but in your case that wouldn't help much.


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## maple1 (Apr 6, 2013)

Sounds like a de-cap-itation is in short-term order....


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## infinitymike (Apr 6, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Sounds like a de-cap-itation is in short-term order....



I pulled the cap off. 
I shut the boiler off at 7am because there was no need for heat today. 
The use of the DHW brought the water temp in the WG down to 110*
At 7:30pm I relight the small amount of coals left from the last burn. 
I added some oak kindling and she was gasifing almost immediately. 
There was no visible smoke or smell. I went right up to the stack and it just smelled like hot air, if that can even smell. 
About 15 mins into the burn I added a dozen solid wood pallet blocks. They are a little bigger then a rubix cube. 
Still no smoke or smell. 
About 25 mins into the burn I added some of the oak scraps from splitting. You know the stuff that is created when splitting. 
It's all thin shavings and splits. 
Also threw in 8 more blocks. 
Here's where the problem began. 
Even though there was a good bed of coals and she was gasifing, there was to much dry wood and it began to produce a light grey smoke and a slight smell. 
Removing the cap made no visible difference in the dispersion of the smoke. 
The light breeze moved it any which way it wanted. 
I cracked open the fire box door which would be  like having a primary air adjustment and the chamber was full of smoke and kind of dark. But in seconds, with introduction of more O2, the fire began to roar like thunder and the smoke in the firebox began to disappear as did the stack smoke. 
AHS said they are in the experimental stages of primary/secondary air controls. 
Since I can't sit around with the door open, I closed it and the stack smoke increased again, but was gone in less then 10 mins. 
By this time I had a need for DHW and turned the zones back on to bring the house back to temp also. 
She burned clean and some what odor free for another 20 mins untill she reached the high limit and shut down. 

All that to say that removing the cap didn't make a difference. 
I think that adding 10' more stack MAY help. 
But I think that careful and slow loading will help even more.


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## henfruit (Apr 7, 2013)

You are burning to much small stuff. You can not get enough oxygen into the fire box to get complete combustion.To much surface area trying to ignite.The greenwoods were famous for this if you tried to burn splits.


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## avc8130 (Apr 7, 2013)

henfruit said:


> You are burning to much small stuff. You can not get enough oxygen into the fire box to get complete combustion.To much surface area trying to ignite.The greenwoods were famous for this if you tried to burn splits.


 
Agreed.  My WG like wood like an OWB.  I had a splitting party yesterday, and the guys helping are all EPA stove guys.  They made me so much kindling I'm not even sure what to do with it!

I split my wood to 7" girth.

ac


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## maple1 (Apr 7, 2013)

Yes.

Different boilers handle different fuel situations differently, but as I think I mentioned earlier I also found that too many too small too dry splits too early in my fire would produce smoke - just not enough air getting in for all the off-gassing. I also found that cracking open my main fire door would help some when that happened - but now I only start with no more than a half fire box of small stuff then reload full with larger stuff after an hour.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 7, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> It has a powerful fan right at the bottom of the unit that pulls smoke in from the top air intake but also pushes exhaust out into the cyclone ash collector. I would think that with my short stack that the fan is pushing it right out of the top.


 
MIke,
The question I have: is the fan suppose to push all the exhaust the whole length of the chimney or is it suppose to just push it through the cylone ash collector and the chimney draft takes it from there? A question for the wood gun manufacturer.
As the woodstock link states the air in is dependent on the draft out. the fan may well be pushing it all the way Until the chimney warms and the draft starts. Hence the need for a small initial fire. Inital start up you can control,but when the unit reignites from hybernation on its on is when I would think you will see the advantage of the natural draft aiding the fan.
The fan is currently pushing the entire length but initially it pushes the exhaust and it hits the section by the roof that is colder and this area is basically blocked until the exhaust warms the chimney once it passes through this area wala it exits the chimney. then exhaust out = air in
you can manually push the exhaust but I think until you get that break through you are starving for oxygen even with the fan. because the volume out needs to balance with the volume in.
I can show you this on my fisher wood stove which exits into an outside masonary chimney. takes about 5-10 minutes to get the draft back if I don't keep air control cracked over night.


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## maple1 (Apr 7, 2013)

I can't see the cooler chimney being that big of a blockage to the big fan on the Gun?

My boiler is natural draft with no fans, and I do see some of the effect you're talking about. But even with my 30ft of chimney to warm up, I get decent gassification & draft way before my chimney gets up to temp - I can light a ball of paper in my cold primary chamber and see almost instant draft on my manometer as soon as I close the door. I just need the initial action of the warm air going up, the cold chimney doesn't seem to stop that too much. The bigger hindrance to optimum gassification I think is getting the refractory warmed up in the gassification chamber - until that happens I see more orange/yellow flame than purple/blue.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 7, 2013)

Maple1: 30 foot chimney should give you good draft to start with.
a 10' chimney at or below all ridge lines sorrounding it probably is not drafting to well naturally then cold it would not have much if any. 
Mike would need to check the draft of the chimney Im just theorizing from what I can see and read.


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## infinitymike (Apr 7, 2013)

You know whats funny is I think we kinda got of track with the thread and are now focusing on the draft of the stack, when the issue still remains that this knuckle head across the street is bothered by the smell of a fire burning.
Unless having more draft will eliminate any smell, maybe I missed that somewhere.
I can see that I may have a more complete combustion but don't ya think there would be some sort of smell?
Actually it was said earlier that a Garn can use a horizontal direct vent. I wonder how well that combustion is.

EDIT. Eventually the draft would be fine after the stack heats up, but he says he can smell something for hours.


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## mikefrommaine (Apr 7, 2013)

Make sure not violating any excessive smoke laws and tell him to get over the smell.


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## maple1 (Apr 7, 2013)

More complete combustion = greatly reduced smell & sight of smoke.

From all the 8 pages so far, I'd say that could be accomplished either by not loading more fuel in than the air coming in can combust completely, and/or burning to storage.

This has been an entertaining one, I must say...


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## infinitymike (Apr 7, 2013)

henfruit said:


> You are burning to much small stuff. You can not get enough oxygen into the fire box to get complete combustion.To much surface area trying to ignite.The greenwoods were famous for this if you tried to burn splits.


 
I agree 100%, thats not what I normally burn during the winter. 
I want to use more of the pallet wood for quick, hot fires to heat DHW for the summer.


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## infinitymike (Apr 7, 2013)

maple1 said:


> This has been an entertaining one, I must say...


 
It certainly has been.


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## infinitymike (Apr 7, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Make sure not violating any excessive smoke laws and tell him to get over the smell.


 
Honestly, there really isn't alot of smoke.
I mean, there definitely is some upon a cold start or when the gremlins relight it but that is for a very short time, 5 - 8 mins.


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## maple1 (Apr 7, 2013)

I could see maybe, depending on local bylaws, some sort of measures could be taken with excessive smoke production. But with so little smoke, I would highly doubt there would be much ground for action against you. I mean - noise can be measured, smoke can be seen, but how could just a smell (or a report of a smell) with no or very little smoke to go with it be firm basis for some sort of bylaw infraction or the like?

I'm kind of glad I live in the middle of nowhere at times...


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## infinitymike (Apr 7, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I could see maybe, depending on local bylaws, some sort of measures could be taken with excessive smoke production. But with so little smoke, I would highly doubt there would be much ground for action against you. I mean - noise can be measured, smoke can be seen, but how could just a smell (or a report of a smell) with no or very little smoke to go with it be firm basis for some sort of bylaw infraction or the like?
> 
> I'm kind of glad I live in the middle of nowhere at times...



I guess they could take an air quality test. 
I don't think it will go that far but I'm still looking to at least make a good faith effort to appease him.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 8, 2013)

Mike,
Is your air intake coming from inside or do you pull in outside air?


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## infinitymike (Apr 8, 2013)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> Mike,
> Is your air intake coming from inside or do you pull in outside air?



I am pulling air form inside the garage but its almost like pulling from outside because there is an broken pane of glass in one of the two man doors I have leading into it plus there is no weather stripping in the two overhead doors and I leave one off the floor by 2". Also there is a gable vent and ridge vent that allows air to circulate around. 
The WG uses a 4" pipe for the intake which they recommend bringing down close to the floor. I have mine about 12" above the floor. 

Why? What's your thoughts in that?


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Apr 8, 2013)

My wheels are always spinning. I was just curious. Sounds like you should get plenty of air to the intake if the air is moving in the building.


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## 711mhw (Apr 8, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I'm kind of glad I live in the middle of nowhere at times...


 
I'm glad I live in the middle of nowhere... all the time


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## salecker (Apr 8, 2013)

711mhw said:


> I'm glad I live in the middle of nowhere... all the time


I Agree


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## infinitymike (Apr 8, 2013)

I went down to the Town Hall. Last year I spoke to the head plans examiner, this time I spoke to the head building inspector.
He also knows from my business.

I said " Last year I spoke to the head plans examiner and he said I don't need a permit but I want to double check with you. I installed a solid wood burning hydronic heater in conjunction with the existing oil burner. Do I need a permit? "
 His first response was "Huh? What are you talking about?"  
I gave him a brief description.
He said, " NO....well maybe if I dig deep in the code book there might be something but I don't think is necessary it's just a supplemental system add on"
He continued with " You may need a plumbing permit since you hooked up water but really I wouldn't bother"
I said "Could I get that in writing in case I have a problem with a neighbor or want to sell the house"

He laughed and said "C'mon Mike you know thats not how we operate, ha ha ha ha."

So basically even though he said NO and It's not necessary, he could back peddle real fast if push came to shove. 
I love the political BS.


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## arngnick (Apr 9, 2013)

Easy solution...get the permit and have him inspect it...I am sure the town with take your money then you have it " in writing"


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## infinitymike (Apr 9, 2013)

arngnick said:


> Easy solution...get the permit and have him inspect it...I am sure the town with take your money then you have it " in writing"


 
Makes sense.


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## avc8130 (Apr 9, 2013)

infinitymike said:


> I went down to the Town Hall. Last year I spoke to the head plans examiner, this time I spoke to the head building inspector.
> He also knows from my business.
> 
> I said " Last year I spoke to the head plans examiner and he said I don't need a permit but I want to double check with you. I installed a solid wood burning hydronic heater in conjunction with the existing oil burner. Do I need a permit? "
> ...


 
Get a plumbing permit for the plumbing.  Get an electrical permit for the electric.  Get a building permit for the chimney.

ac


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