# Newbie to Pellets stoves, regretting right now buying one



## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

Hi Everyone,
Im new to this site and new to the world of pellet stoves.  I just had a Heatilator PS50 installed on Friday 12/9/11.  Looks great, nice flame like a stove but im not sure if im running it right or what i can do to make it better.  First, i have tried 3 different pellets... New england, Instant heat and LG.   I have the stove downstairs in my semifinished basement and when you are down there it is piping hot, but to get it to be warm upstairs i need to set everything on max and that is only with 30 degree nights.  If it is only keeping up now im in trouble on single digit nights. 
What i have done
Installed a vent almost above it which is in the livving room
Installed a vent about 6-7 feet to the right of it which is in the kitchen
Installed a vent about 20 feet away which is in the hallway
Placed a fan about 12-13 feet away to blow on the right side of the fan to start a circulation effect.  

In the daytime its good, im at 69 degrees right now with it on Med and the thermo is set at 90, but 69 upstairs
I opened the fuel adjustment rod to pretty much all the way as the flame was only about 2 inches tall.  Noticed this gives a little more heat out of the blower but not to much for all around warmth in the house.
My house is 1364 CuFt upstairs and 600 downstairs.  I have an open stairway to the downstairs so i dont need to worry about a door or hallway to the downstairs.   All in all i thought i would have to keep the stove turnd down so as not to be cooked out of the house but im at the complete other spectrum.  I have the oil heat we used completely off since it was installed on Friday so i know the stove is doing a good job on the house.  I just would like it to be a bit better.
Can anyone give me pointers or help on if im messing something up or what else i can do.  Im a complete newb to this and i know it will take trial and error.  
All it seems at night when i leave the stove alone and just make sure its full the temp drops 7 degrees or so and getting up in the morning is not pleasant.  
I dont know if i missed anything  such as a damper ( dont even know if this has one) or anything else, bur please ask me and ill see if i can get the answer.  Any help would be greatly appreciated

Here it is installed

PS: just for more info i am currently at 2 or so bags a day and have just burnt the first 2 bags of LG's 


Thanks Jeff


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## Salty (Dec 13, 2011)

that basement is going to absorb alot of heat. Check your insulation in your attic....sounds dumb to say this but all that warm air rises... Air sealing and insulation fixes that. That house isn't that big.


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## smoke show (Dec 13, 2011)

Is the vent 3" or 4"?


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## philbrick (Dec 13, 2011)

Im new myself but how about calling up the place you bought it and have them stop by and check everything out


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2011)

Two things you have to produce enough BTU's to over come the heat loss of the area you are heating and then get the heat distributed after producing it.

Producing it usually isn't a problem keeping the houses heat loss down and distributing the produced heat can be a major headache.

First lets see what the whole house sort of looks like I'm assuming that the cubic feet you posted is actually square feet so you have the stove in a basement room is the basement fully finished and all walls insulated and if they are insulated with what and how thick.

Second can we see a picture looking up the stairs from the basement  and down the stairs from the first floor?   

Frequently there is an air block that sets up in most stairways.

Third where in relation to the door out of the room is the stove's convection air system pointing.


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## MarkF48 (Dec 13, 2011)

I have an upstairs room that has a vent to the kitchen below. The vent by itself doesn't contribute much to getting upstairs room warm, so I ended using a fan like this Suncourt HC300 Heating & Air Conditioning Booster Fan which is placed over the vent. This has helped considerably. Also I think it's important to have a path for air to return to the heated area to develop an air flow circulation.


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## silverfox103 (Dec 13, 2011)

If the upstairs is where you spend most of the time, you probably should have installed the stove on that floor.  Some have had luck doing it the way you did, but many have had problems, as it is tough to move hot air.

Tom C.


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## Ogilvy (Dec 13, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Two things you have to produce enough BTU's to over come the heat loss of the area you are heating and then get the heat distributed after producing it.
> ...........
> 
> Frequently there is an air block that setts up in most stairways.
> ...



What do you mean by air block?

 Curious as my P38 does not heat the main floor of my bungalow much at all. Used to be able to stand at the top of the stairs and get "blown away" by the heat from my previous woodstove. I attribute the lack of heat upstairs due to the size of my pellet stove and the simple fact i do not crank it all the way up. It burns me that i still require the use of baseboards to keep the main floor warm...


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## BradH70 (Dec 13, 2011)

silverfox103 said:
			
		

> If the upstairs is where you spend most of the time, you probably should have installed the stove on that floor.  Some have had luck doing it the way you did, but many have had problems, as it is tough to move hot air.
> 
> Tom C.



Considering that you have the vent going out the window, it would not be to difficult to move the stove to main (first?) living floor. You may get better results as some of the other members have mentioned.


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## Trickyrick (Dec 13, 2011)

Jeff, a little more info is in order here.  

Your house has some other form of central heat right?  What type and how many BTUs did you use through that before adding the pellet stove.

This is important because it tells you and us how much heat you actually need to keep the house comfortable.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

Smoke show, the pipe exiting the basement window is a duravent.  One of them says 3pvp-36.  I measured it and it looks to be 3.5 inches.

Smokey,
The house is from the 50s.  HOnestly not sure what is insulated downstairs.  I can tell you that it has a drop ceiling with insulation between the rafters downstairs.  The downstairs is pretty much fully open until you have to round a corner to get to the laundry room.  The stove is blowing straight at our garage door.  I will upload pics.  i have quite a few and the should give you a good layout.  I dont know if the walls a re insulated since it was finished before we bought it.  It is hot down there once it is going.  The insu on the drop ceiling is the pink fiberglass stuff and roughly 5-6 inches thick.  I was thinking of removing this...? 

Phil,
Yea thats my next move as well

I will post the pics in a few minuts


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## BIGISLANDHIKERS (Dec 13, 2011)

Its always difficult getting the heat upstairs.  Remember a pellet stove is a space heater, not a furnace.  Your basement is only 1/2 the size as your main floor so that will make it even harder for the heat to reach upstairs.  It looks like our basement ceiling is tiled and perhaps insulated which adds to your difficulties.

Try putting a fan at the top of your stairs and blow cold air down the stairs.  Put another one at the bottom pointing towards the stove.  This may push the the warm air up the stairs.

X2 on putting it upstairs if possible.

Goodluck
BIH


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## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

Trickyrick said:
			
		

> Jeff, a little more info is in order here.
> 
> Your house has some other form of central heat right?  What type and how many BTUs did you use through that before adding the pellet stove.
> 
> This is important because it tells you and us how much heat you actually need to keep the house comfortable.



I had/have oil heat.  I honestly dont know how many BTUs we went thru.  The house is comfortable at 69 but once night  comes she drops like a rock and that is with only 25 degree nights.  I am not looking forward to 4 degree nights.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

Brad, yes my thoughts have been heavily on bringing it upstairs.  Was i wrong to think of using the stove as my main heat for the winter and hopefully only use the oil for water heat?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2011)

Ogilvy said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
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The cold air can't get down the stair well and the warm air ride up over it.  It takes two air flow paths to distribute heat, in a hot air system (which a pellet stove is) one is the convection output (hot air) and the other is the convection input (cold air return).  With a ducted furnace these two paths are physically separated by the duct work.  With a pellet stove they are sort of separated but only by a couple of feet.  So what happens is if there is a long path that things have to take the two mix and nothing really moves between the floors.

Most stairways are not all that tall these days so the hot air doesn't get a chance to continue rising.    It takes a lot of heat and air flow to force air movement in this situation, pellet stoves frequently need an assist.

Some folks do the fan routine, some do the fans and additional holes in floors and walls.  If anyone goes punching holes in walls and floors they need to pay attention to safety.  Fire chases result from doing such modifications, it needs to be done correctly.

I have a nice tall straight up wall just outside the door to my den where the stove is and there is a half wall at the second floor landing the air flow here is such that you can feel the cool air down low and the warm air coming over the half wall and the warm air also goes up the tall wall to the ceiling.

The only issue I have is moving enough air through the stove to heat it all.  There is a massive amount of air in a multistory house and all attempts to heat a house from a basement are in fact heating a multistory house.

Now for the OP.

What is the gross firing rate of your oil system it should be on the makers plate or the burner it is stated in gallons per hour.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

Here is the layout i have more coming.  I know the house is a mess right now


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## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

the last pic is walking away from the stove and into the laundry room


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## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

Smokey here is what you asked for


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2011)

Once the night comes 2 things happen. You loose the solar assist and the outside temp drops, So your heat loss sky rockets. 2 ways to fix it. Over power it with more BTU's or Tighten up the joint.

How warm is it down by the stove? Betting not to bad!

I'm thinking the stoves too small to heat all that in the house's present condition. Move it upstairs and at least be warm up there. Pick up a stove or something to warm the basement. Or sell it and add a pellet furnace with ducting to move heat where its needed. The radiant from the furnace will keep the basement somewhat warm. Adding insulation to the basement is optional with the furnace. But a must if you try heating with a stove! Edit: You already have a boiler, SO there is another good option. Add a pellet boiler to that. You can sister it right into it!

Many people try this stove in the basement thing and think it will heat both area's just fine. Not so, heat loss is tricky. You'll get some upstairs, As the warm air rises it is mixing with the cooler air. So you loose some heat. But as the temps drop the heat loss effect gets larger and the efficiency drops like a stone! Insulating the basement helps but it is still hard when the real cold comes by. So in turn you can make it better, But it doesn't totally go away. Forcing the heat thru a duct is the ticket. Once the ducts warm you don't loose as much heat. Specially when you insulate the duct work. Less area to absorb the nasty cold. 

I speak from many years of experience heating from the basement and tried about everything possible with a pellet stove down there. But as soon as the temps started dropping I always seemed to have trouble. I'd get typing cramps if I typed everything I tried to move more heat upstairs. My latest was the ticket. I made my big beast of a stove the closest I could get to a furnace. I added duct work and a larger blower to move the air thru the duct work. I now have 74ÂºF temps easily upstairs and mid 60's down stairs. Pellet consumption dropped as well. Wished you would have asked us sooner. I would have definetly pointed at the pellet furnace!


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## whosthat (Dec 13, 2011)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> Once the night comes 2 things happen. You loose the solar assist and the outside temp drops, So your heat loss sky rockets. 2 ways to fix it. Over power it with more BTU's or Tighten up the joint.
> 
> How warm is it down by the stove? Betting not to bad!
> 
> ...



Interesting I was floating that idea myself, hooking duct work up to my pellet stove and turning it into a forced hot air furnace, I however dont have much trouble heating the upstairs but it does seem like a waste of money to keep my basement 80 degrees all the time.


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## fidiro (Dec 13, 2011)

I wonder if your basement is very well insulated that it does not have any fresh air coming in but rather it is sucking in from the upstairs somewhere.

I would look into OAK to see what happens.  This way it is sucking air right at the stove and not from any possible air leaks from the upstairs.  It might help.


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## fidiro (Dec 13, 2011)

BTW, I like your idea of running it out a window.LOL   

I did the same thing thinking it will be just temporary until I get used to using pellets, well it's my 3rd temporary season running it out the top of a double hung window.  It's so temporary that I can't even show pics of my install.  Another reason to not making it a permanent install was if I decided to sell the house I didn't want to leave stove behind and leave a hole in the wall if I did take it.


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## jtakeman (Dec 13, 2011)

whosthat said:
			
		

> j-takeman said:
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Its really not cold yet. Wait until the singles and below come. I was fine until that happened. I'd have to crank the stove to over come that. I only need to run the stove on medium heat settings even in the bitter cold. Next chance I get this stove will be replaced with a pellet furnace!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2011)

One major difference between your layout and mine is the shot across to the other area of the basement so you are heating the entire basement.  This diverts the amount of heat that can go up the stairs.  My stairwell is solid wall with a door in it that leads to the garage and that wall is insulated and double layered.

So it appears that you are attempting to heat close to 2700 square feet of house, but likely really needs close to 33,000 BTU of output to do that (going by the boiler figures and some weird adjustments for domestic hot water and reasonable temperature recovery rates on cold days).   The BTU figure for your stove is an input firing rate (I swear it is on a good day with no head wind using the best possible pellets to boot) so at full bore you are getting about 37,500 (using another dubious efficiency figure).

You need to stop some of that heat from going across the bottom of your stairwell and get it going up the stairs instead as well as run the stove full out (if it can handle that).

I hear ya Jay, I hear ya.  

Do you know the convection blowers air flow rate on that stove and what are the ceiling heights in your basement and first floor?


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## BradH70 (Dec 13, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Brad, yes my thoughts have been heavily on bringing it upstairs.  Was i wrong to think of using the stove as my main heat for the winter and hopefully only use the oil for water heat?



You should be able to heat your house with just pellet stove considering the sq/ft that you mentioned if you move it to the main living floor. I am heating our house (two floors) which is ~2200sq/ft with just the pellet stove insert. The oil burner is now used only to heat DHW.

Are you trying to heat the downstairs(basement) because it is part of the living space?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2011)

BradH70 said:
			
		

> jeff5347 said:
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Looks to me like he has a family room down there.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 13, 2011)

ItBurns, since my intake is as low as it goes would i be able to do an OAK?

Brad, if i had this upstairs i have no worries it could do it.  It is warm when your near it. The thermostat that is provided states 85 degrees and the thermostat near the garage door states the same.  I would be able to slow it  down to keep a nicew 70 in the house if it were upstairs.
It is a semi family room but more for the kids.  I put it down there thinking heat rises and ill get the best of both worlds. Was i wrong....!   The kids can handle colder temps than i can.  If anything i rather heat upstairs with the stove and DS with oil.  I would set oil DS for 60-64 degrees


Smokey my US ceiling is i think is about 8 feet and DS with the Drop ceiling in is only 6.5 feet high.

As for the AFR i dont know.  I looked thru the manual but im getting nothing.  http://www.hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/7058_142.PDF


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## Bkins (Dec 13, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> So it appears that you are attempting to heat close to 2700 square feet of house, but likely really needs close to 33,000 BTU of output to do that (going by the boiler figures and some weird adjustments for domestic hot water and reasonable temperature recovery rates on cold days).   The BTU figure for your stove is an input firing rate (I swear it is on a good day with no head wind using the best possible pellets to boot) so at full bore you are getting about 37,500 (using another dubious efficiency figure).



I don't understand what you have posted here.  The plate on his heater has 2 different ranges.  One for hot water and the other for heat.  The heat number BTU is way higher then what you posted above. How do you come up with 33,000 and the furnace part says 100,000?

How does that work?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2011)

Bkins said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
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The plates give gross and net BTU figures at two of many possible nozzle rates and I derated for domestic hot water and the slop used to provide a decent temperature recovery time on cold days, that normally puts the required calculated heat figure at about 1/3 of net.

I then derated the pellet unit by the  touted average efficiency rate for a pellet stove, the stove has the horses to do the heating part of the job.


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## smoke show (Dec 13, 2011)

May be trivial, but I'm still questioning the EVL.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 13, 2011)

smoke show said:
			
		

> May be trivial, but I'm still questioning the EVL.



Looks like it is right at or a hair below the limit for 3" vent, it would be better if the vertical were vertical, and he might get a bit more heat out the front if there was a damper on the unit and it was closed a bit but the picture of the flame isn't good enough to judge or my eyesight needs looking after.  I understand that happens when you get old.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

Smokey, that flame is with LG granules. They are soft pellets.  i noticed i am not able to even get the flame lazy and high even with the feed rate fully open to dump the most in.  Im gonna try the New england pellets again as i now have a better understanding of the unit. Wit htose i got a really high flame i could at least adjust down.  With thh LGs i cant get it even were it shgould be.  So no you arent going blind the flame is only 2 inches above the firepot..

Also ..what is EVL    exhaust valve leak?  Elavated valve limit?   
Would a OAK do anything for me or m ore of a waste of money?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Smokey, that flame is with LG granules. They are soft pellets.  i noticed i am not able to even get the flame lazy and high even with the feed rate fully open to dump the most in.  Im gonna try the New england pellets again as i now have a better understanding of the unit. Wit htose i got a really high flame i could at least adjust down.  With thh LGs i cant get it even were it shgould be.  So no you arent going blind the flame is only 2 inches above the firepot..
> 
> Also ..what is EVL    exhaust valve leak?  Elavated valve limit?
> Would a OAK do anything for me or m ore of a waste of money?



Jeff,

EVL is equivalent vent length, there are limits for the venting system based upon applying certain numerical values to each kind of vent pipe.

The normal limit for 3" vent for most but not all stoves is an evl of 15 if it exceeds that the venting needs to be 4".

The numbers are:

1 foot of vertical length = an evl of 0.5
Tee  = 5
90degree elbow = 5
1 foot of horizontal (we will discuss what horizontal really isn't) = 1
45 degree elbow = 2.5 or 3.0 depending on the manufacturer 

If you turn an elbow so it is horizontal its evl doubles.  

So if you have an adapter followed by a Tee and 4 feet of vertical followed by a 90 degree elbow followed by 2 feet of horizontal followed by a termination cap your vents evl would be 5+4(0.5)+5+2 = 5+2+5+2 = 14 so 3" is fine unless the stove manufacturer says 12.

Now a couple of things a non vertical pipe has a vertical and horizontal component which increases the evl over what the true vertical evl would be.  Now about horizontal runs they best have a 1/4" per foot up bubble going away from the stove.  They never should be horizontal and down bubble is a major restriction and problem.

This is pellet stove venting 101.

I'm a firm believer in using an OAK, have a reasonably tight house, what happens in a basement install when the juice goes out, and having no desire to toss any air that I have heated out the flue it wasn't even off the list from the git go.

My comment about the flame was more directed towards color and the possibility that the flue might be seeing more of the heat than it should and thus it is exiting the house instead of being used to provide usable heat.


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## smoke show (Dec 14, 2011)

Whats the vent like outside the house?


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## BIGISLANDHIKERS (Dec 14, 2011)

Does the flame ever get higher with thatstove?


Have you tried blowing the cold air toward the basement?

BIH


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## LIpelletpig (Dec 14, 2011)

With the basement temp hovering at 85 and no heat rising up the stairs your only option is to move that stove upstairs to the first floor.  OAK and venting won't make much of a change since your problem is really moving heat not your install.  Vents in the floor and circulation of air is important but in your case sounds the best option is move the stove to the 1st floor.  My2Cents


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2011)

LIpelletpig said:
			
		

> With the basement temp hovering at 85 and no heat rising up the stairs your only option is to move that stove upstairs to the first floor.  OAK and venting won't make much of a change since your problem is really moving heat not your install.  Vents in the floor and circulation of air is important but in your case sounds the best option is move the stove to the 1st floor.  My2Cents



Actually changes to the venting if needed and other things can have an impact.

But the primary one is the fact there is a full cold air cap on top of the only exit from the basement and when everyone decides what else is wrong I will tell the OP something (actually several somethings) that may help.  But I asked some questions and am patiently awaiting the answers.


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## DexterDay (Dec 14, 2011)

My vote is for upstairs also.  May be easier to try and push some air downstairs if needed.

Where is majority of your time spent? Upstairs or Down? Also you could get a lower EVL with the vent you have by venting upstairs. Straight out the back of stove 2 ft (through the wall) then cleanout-T and then some vertical. No problem heating upstairs with it upstairs. Its basically a Quadrafire stove with a different exterior cladding.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

Bigisland, when i had the hardwoods (just picked up some tonight) the flame would get higher and i would adjust the feed to slow down as it was getting so much and im assuming wasting some.  With the soft ones it seemed i couldnt get an appropriate flame.  We will see with the hardwoods tomorrow. On the vent to outside it exits the metal about another 14 inches and has a 60 degree adapter to aim towards the ground. There is about a 16 inch ground clearance outside.  


Smokey, i thought i may have answered everything to give what i could.  I apologize, what ?s did i not respond to yet?
Wish you were closer to Mass i would have you come over and give my house a look around to see what i have good and not.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Bigisland, when i had the hardwoods (just picked up some tonight) the flame would get higher and i would adjust the feed to slow down as it was getting so much and im assuming wasting some.  With the soft ones it seemed i couldnt get an appropriate flame.  We will see with the hardwoods tomorrow. On the vent to outside it exits the metal about another 14 inches and has a 60 degree adapter to aim towards the ground. There is about a 16 inch ground clearance outside.
> 
> 
> Smokey, i thought i may have answered everything to give what i could.  I apologize, what ?s did i not respond to yet?
> Wish you were closer to Mass i would have you come over and give my house a look around to see what i have good and not.



Getting old missed your post about the ceiling heights and no idea about the air flow rate of the convection blower.

Ok, something to try if you can find some large card board boxes, as an experiment block off the back and side of the railings around the stairwell.  I'm constructing a block for the cold air across part of your stairwell.  Yes I hear the wife now. But humor me a bit.

This should emulate a two duct system and the cold air should tumble down the open end.  But a lot of your heat is also going to go across into the other area of your basement.  You might be able to tap into it with something a bit different than that corner fan I see, do you know what the flow rate is on that?  

I'm going to dig up some air flow figures for that stove, don't know how successful I'll be and see if I can figure the stoves ability to turn over the air in the house.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2011)

Ok, your house has a maximum of 19088 cubic feet of air that has to be heated and homogenized.  

I hope your blower has a good air flow rate.


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## rona (Dec 14, 2011)

I tried three different stoves in the basement  and just couldn't do it. Finally got tired of local dealers saying (their) stove would do it at a cost of 4 grand. Finally went on E-bay and bought a new Bixby for 1700 delivered to the door and installed it on the main floor. I can buy parts from the factory if needed and don't have to put up with a attitude from the all important only dealer around. If a person wants to learn about a particular model of stove this is the place for most models. You will be told the good and bad plus you can learn to be mechanically inclined and save yourself a bundle of money. It would be best if you had a friend with a pellet stove and a few years burning experience to ask questions.
 A chimney sweep would be a good person to ask advice and he may know how to do what you want.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 14, 2011)

Yeah I bit the bullet knowing what the results would be yesterday and shut down the wood stove on the main floor of a two story colonial and fired the pellet puppy in the basement. It took thirteen hours of expensive burning just to get the basement up to 70 and decent heat coming up that stairwell. Kept it fed and burning until morning when it was 19 degrees. House was down to 64 and it ate a bag in nine hours to keep it there.

What it proved to me is that the stove would heat this place just fine. Upstairs. The other thing it proved is I could spend four hundred a month on pellets if I tried to heat it from the basement like that.

It would be the same result with a wood stove down there. Tested that before too.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2011)

Well I can't comment about your setups folks, but it has to be looked at as a system and that means air flow rates, the amount of air that has to be heated and moved, the removal of any impediments to the moving of the air, and the reduction of all heat loss factors.

Jeff, 

I've looked at a number of places for the air flow rate of the 812-4900 and so far am coming up empty.  I'll do some more poking around tomorrow.


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## checkthisout (Dec 14, 2011)

Drink some Wine or Whiskey and then walk around holding some incense. Watch the smoke and see where it goes especially in the stairwell area. 

Your stairwell is as small as a stairwell can possibly be which means it's not going to allow much heat upstairs. I literally can almost feel the temperature change based on the pictures you provided. 

Remember, if you overheat one space you cause more heat loss from that space. 

Here is what I would I do. Get a box fan and hang it from the railing so it sits at the top of the ceiling of the basement. Basically, if you were to walk down the stairs your face would run right into it. See how much this changes this temp upstairs. This will tell you if your stove is capable of heating your house or not.

If it can then a simple compact blower place somewhere on the basement ceiling should be enough to get heat upstairs. 

If this doesn't work then I would just move the stove upstairs where you spend most of your time?


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

Thanks for all the help and info smokey, they say not to call the maker of heatilator but the dealer.  So tomorrow ill try and call and see if they have the AFR #.  Now to find some big cardboard for the experiment.  Also will try the box fan test in the stair way.

Ok had to go out last night and spoke to someone who owns a coal stove.  I told him how i have three vents... one in the living room like the picture posted, one in the kitchen by and outside wall and one at the end of our hall way.  He stated the same that there needs to be a circulation happening.  He said to get those small fans that are half moon shaped they sell at HDD and place them DS under each vent.  He stated one to suck into the basement and the other 2 to push up to the main floor.  Does this sound like something that would help..,hinder or not do anything.

Checkthisout,  would i have the box fan blow up stairs or suck air downstairs?


Also smokey i went downstairs to meassure the pipes like you stated on the evl and this is what i have 
This is what they listed as is installed
a Pipe adapter
tee
90 degree
2 ft
3ft
1 ft
1 ft adj
cap
Basically my setup looks like and upside down L with a T at the stove and a 60 degree or so termination pipe at the outside


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## checkthisout (Dec 14, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Checkthisout,  would i have the box fan blow up stairs or suck air downstairs?



Blow upstairs. You want it pulling heat out of the basement and pushing it upstairs. 

You have to move a LOT of air.


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## RKS130 (Dec 14, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Two things you have to produce enough BTU's to over come the heat loss of the area you are heating and then get the heat distributed after producing it.
> 
> Second can we see a picture looking up the stairs from the basement and down the stairs from the first floor?
> 
> Frequently there is an air block that sets up in most stairways.



Hey Smokey, tell me more about this air block in the stairway.

Much obliged


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## checkthisout (Dec 14, 2011)

RKS130 said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
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The air going up is choked off (obviously not completely) by the air going down.


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## RKS130 (Dec 14, 2011)

Checkthisout said:
			
		

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And how is this fixed/remedied/worked around?


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

Ok Checkthisout. 
   I zip tied a fan to the railings.  It is a comfort features box fan fb50-a1.  I cant find a manual and i dont have it as i have had the fan forever.  I have the fan on low because med and hi haul a@@ when blowing.  I could start a tornado with this thing.  We'll see how it goes.... thanks.    Now if i have this fan here would having my 3 vents in the floor suck into the basement cause a circulation.  Me not being a HVAc guy i think this would cause air to start circulating until the whole house was at a reasaonablly same level of temp from upstairs and downstairs, albiet DS would be a bit warmer due to the stove being there


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## checkthisout (Dec 14, 2011)

RKS130 said:
			
		

> Checkthisout said:
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Chainsawing much of the second floor out although I believe such a modification would affect the functionality of the house. 

On the other hand, central heating systems with multiple vents (at least one per room) were developed to combat the difficulties of trying to heat a dwelling from a monovent heat source. We need to mimic this "optimum" as best as possible. 

In this case we need better circulation. If the OP is not against cutting more holes in his ceiling/floor, a vent like DON222 has to pipe heat directly up to the second floor would be the best solution. 

Were not to that point yet though.


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## RKS130 (Dec 14, 2011)

Not sure Madame Defarge will go along with either the chainsaw or the sawzall. Our new stove is positioned directly opposite the bottom of the stairs. In the hallway above is a ceiling fan which, in accord with advice received here, is blowing downward to move cold air down so hot air can rise. The house is small - 1500 sq. ft. livable space. But as colder weather arrives Madame Defarge is starting to talk abut firing up the oil burner "just to take the chill off". I agree we might need to if we have a week or so in the teens, but not now with night temps only in the high 20's, low 30's.

I had wanted a bigger stove but was overruled on aesthetic grounds.


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## Jason (Dec 14, 2011)

i did have that problem in my house too. air block in my stairs from the basement couldnt heat first level. the only way i could fixed it is to make a 2 path for the air like the others said. at the end of my house(the coldest place) where the stove is at the other end in the basement, i had a duck fan in the register to pull cold air in the basement and then hot air was rising from the stair an register where the stove is. i have a bungalow 2400sq feet. stove is under the living room and duct fan is in the kitchen other end of the house.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

CTO, no im not opposed to more vents.  I have the jigsaw waiting and ready.  If you look at the pics and see the one that goes down the hallway... our room is all the way down to the right, my daughters all the way down to the left.  In the middle of the hallway on the left is the bathroom and on the right my sons room.  The problem with that is on the right side those rooms sit on top of my garage... yea the floor gets a nice cooing from the garage, good for summer but bad right now.  The one think is his room also sits above the furnace room a bit so i could have a vent from above the furnace room and leave that door open as it does get pretty nice in there but im afraid of fumes getting in his room.  My room i dont care i can cover up when i go to sleep.  The daughters room is over the laundry room and i could do another vent but i am getting very far removed from the stove,... or would cutting in a vent give another source of ventalation and actually help circulate all the cold air to the bottom and give the warm air a better chance to rise?  Would putting another vent in the living room and kitchen be to much (would then have 2 vents each in the LR and kitchen)?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2011)

Checkthisout said:
			
		

> RKS130 said:
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Yes and the heat that is being transfered is doing so by conduction and a very slight amount of convection.

If you can get even a small amount of the cold air such that it starts down the stars in a larger volume the block can be broken and some stronger circulation established, that is the reason for the cardboard experiment.

Since there are some existing vents those furthest from the stairwell should be used to allow cold air into the basement, I want the stairwell to become the primary hot air path but because of the size of the opening and its location (floor level) it needs a bit of an assist since no matter what gets done the cold air is always going to be at floor level.

The convection fan on the stove plays a vital role here and if it can't move enough air, well let's just say there is a huge difference between 140 CFM on a stove and 800 to 2000 CFM on a furnace.

But heating a multistory house can be done even with a stove if you can get nature to assist, convection can move a lot of air given a chance.



Jeff,

I was going to contact one of the dealers on here if I couldn't find information on the fan, sometimes that information is on the blower plate.  If we have the information on that plate through the wonders of the net we can usually find a lot more about the blower.

One other thing the only fan I run here is the convection fan on the stove and it is running in what the forced air folks would call CAC (Continuous Air Circulation) mode on high (smaller air flow rate than a furnace compensation).


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

Jason i have a register at the end of the hallway whcih is also at the other end of where the stove is.  I have a entree fan that i got from HD but the blade is already breaking.  I was wondering on the speedd of the duct fan you have.  Is it slow or is the fan really spinning.  Wondering so when i bring this one back i get either a nice slow one or one that has more meat to it to suck the air down.  I can say without a fan i can feel the cold air falling down the vent so at least on on the right path. Now just need to suck it out to help it really circulate


Smokey, so basically my stairway is to big in essence not getting a vacuum effect.  Am i correct in that thinking,  And blocking some of it off would make the stair way "smaller" being able to make a suction. Are you saying i should take my box fan and put it ath the bottom of the stairs and suck the cold air down. I apologize but i got lost on the CAC.  I get it recirculates but in how i could acheive this.  I need the dumby version of speak.. hahahahah


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## Jason (Dec 14, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Jason i have a register at the end of the hallway whcih is also at the other end of where the stove is.  I have a entree fan that i got from HD but the blade is already breaking.  I was wondering on the speedd of the duct fan you have.  Is it slow or is the fan really spinning.  Wondering so when i bring this one back i get either a nice slow one or one that has more meat to it to suck the air down.  I can say without a fan i can feel the cold air falling down the vent so at least on on the right path. Now just need to suck it out to help it really circulate
> 
> 
> Smokey, so basically my stairway is to big in essence not getting a vacuum effect.  Am i correct in that thinking,  And blocking some of it off would make the stair way "smaller" being able to make a suction. Are you saying i should take my box fan and put it ath the bottom of the stairs and suck the cold air down. I apologize but i got lost on the CAC.  I get it recirculates but in how i could acheive this.  I need the dumby version of speak.. hahahahah



only have one speed and it really spins for the size of it. its a little bit noisy. the size is about 4 to 5 inch round about 6 inch long. also have rectangular duct that screwed in the register hole in the  basement and then hooked up the duct fan.

also have a open rail for the stairway on the first floor had to block it with carton board also like smokeythebear said.


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## Jason (Dec 14, 2011)

Jason Robichaud said:
			
		

> jeff5347 said:
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sorry for the double post dont know what happen here


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

Jason , where did you get it from.  Do you have a link or pic of it  or a brand and part #?


 With the ducting you state so you have the register in the floor then a peice of sheetmetal ducting... then the fan is attached the bottom of this sort of sealing the fan to the hole and pulling from every sq inch of the register hole?  correct?    Im headed to HD in a few hours so im gonna switch this one for that or something similar.  Did you notice a defference with open rail stair way blocked with the cardboard?


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## Jason (Dec 14, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Jason , where did you get it from.  Do you have a link or pic of it  or a brand and part #?
> 
> 
> With the ducting you state so you have the register in the floor then a peice of sheetmetal ducting... then the fan is attached the bottom of this sort of sealing the fan to the hole and pulling from every sq inch of the register hole?  correct?    Im headed to HD in a few hours so im gonna switch this one for that or something similar.  Did you notice a defference with open rail stair way blocked with the cardboard?



i get it from a hardware store.
here`s the link http://www.homehardware.ca/en/cat/search/_/N-2pqfZ67l/Ne-67n/Ntk-All_EN?Ntt=duct+fan

and this is the one in the hole http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/i...7n/No-72/Ntk-All_EN/R-I5512091?Ntt=duct&Num=0

and yes there was a big different blocking the rail stair. my stair is located in the middle of the house.

i did alot of test to found out where the cold air was going and this is the best way so far. did try the fan pushing air upstair and downstair but was making to much draft. now with this setup i can feel the warm air rising from the stair by looking down from the rail.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 14, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Jason i have a register at the end of the hallway whcih is also at the other end of where the stove is.  I have a entree fan that i got from HD but the blade is already breaking.  I was wondering on the speedd of the duct fan you have.  Is it slow or is the fan really spinning.  Wondering so when i bring this one back i get either a nice slow one or one that has more meat to it to suck the air down.  I can say without a fan i can feel the cold air falling down the vent so at least on on the right path. Now just need to suck it out to help it really circulate
> 
> 
> Smokey, so basically my stairway is to big in essence not getting a vacuum effect.  Am i correct in that thinking,  And blocking some of it off would make the stair way "smaller" being able to make a suction. Are you saying i should take my box fan and put it ath the bottom of the stairs and suck the cold air down. I apologize but i got lost on the CAC.  I get it recirculates but in how i could acheive this.  I need the dumby version of speak.. hahahahah



You can start by turning off the ceiling fan, the cardboard barrier I told you about is going to help split the air into hot and cold paths at the stairs.

You get the continuous air circulation via the convection loops and the convection fan moving as much air through the stove as it can.  The convection loops will actually move more air than the blower will but you need all of the heat the stove produces at any setting to be removed by the convection blower and dumped into the convection air path, the fact that the convection blower actually helps establish the convection loop is a huge plus.

Even after we get the air moving and heated we still have to make certain that the heat it carries doesn't get swallowed by your home's heat losses.   Which we have only a somewhat educated but non the less a WAG at.

Generate the heat, distribute the heat, don't lose the heat.

You have part one down pat, we are working on part two, part three may or may not be needed (my bet is it would likely help and perhaps a lot, but I don't have anything to back that up with except having done more than a little house work over the decades.

Now I have other things to do that will take me away from the computer.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

ok cool that gives me an idea what to look for when i get to HD.  Awesome guys thanks for the help.  Keep it coming i can already see my house warming up in my mind...


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## Jason (Dec 14, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> ok cool that gives me an idea what to look for when i get to HD.  Awesome guys thanks for the help.  Keep it coming i can already see my house warming up in my mind...



before bying anything make sure to mesure your register hole size so that duck will fit in
if you by that fan you will need a extention male connector cause that fan come only with 3 wire. just hook up the white and black there is a green one but that one is for hooking it up to a furnace you wont need that one.

another thing when youll hooked up the duct fan it wont fit properly cause youll have to push air downstair the pipe connector is made so the fan push up but you want to push down so youll have two female connector (you will figure it out when youll see it) so youll have to ben the egde of one a little bit to fit it in.


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## MarkF48 (Dec 14, 2011)

I posted a link a while back in this thread to a fan that goes over the vent to force air flow. This from Home Depot, so if it was bought and didn't work out a return would be easy. I attached an image to the post this time. 

EQ2 Heating and Air Conditioning Register Booster

The air flow in my case is from the kitchen pushed to the upstairs room with the fan. From the upstairs room the air moves to a hallway and then returns to the kitchen via the stairs.


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## Snowy Rivers (Dec 14, 2011)

where is the regular heatng system (Furnace) located ??

If the air handler is in the basement, open the cold air return and let the air handler suck that heat from the basement and shove it up to the living quarters.

If this is not an option then I am for installing the stove upstairs.

After having pellet stoves for over 20 years I have concluded that multiple smaller stoves located about the house are the best way to heat the home.

We have 3 stoves in a 2400 sq ft ranch style house.  Depending on the outside temp it can be a 1, 2 or 3 stove show.

When the outside temps are in the 50's, one little stove is plenty. When the temps drop into the 40's its a one larger stove show and when it gets into the low 30's to about 20 its a 2 stove show.

If it gets below 20 then we let the Quadrafire automatic pick up any slack to keep the house cozy.

You have got to get that air to exchange from down to up and then back again.

Snowy


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## nmerkley (Dec 14, 2011)

I agree with Snowy.  I currently have my stove in the lower level, granted I have 600 sq ft of living quarters down stairs and 640 sq ft upstairs, not the Taj Ma Hall(?), but I close all supply register vents in the basement, except the one over the top of the stove.  I have a cold air return in the upstairs hallway and one in about the center of the basement.  I wired my circulation fan from my furnace to the heat circuit on the Thermostat. (wired a second thermostat near waterlines in case pellet stove fails it will kick on the gas furnace.)  My thermostat is upstairs and so when it gets cooler than what I have the Tstat set for the it kicks on the fan and starts to bring the warm air upstairs.  I can keep my up and downstairs with in 4-5 degrees this way, which I prefer to sleep in cooler temperature. Oh yeah, kitchen, bath, living room DS and 2 Bedrooms, Bath, and Hobby room upstairs.  If I would decide to run my fan all the time I can keep the two levels within 1-2 degrees.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 14, 2011)

Snowy, if you look at the pics i posted you will see the downstairs and there is a door with a criss cross diamond pattern.  That door lead to my garage but there is a door to the left of it, that is the furnace room.  

"If the air handler is in the basement, open the cold air return and let the air handler suck that heat from the basement and shove it up to the living quarters."     Im not sure i know what this is or where it would be....I told my wife if worse comes to worse we move it upstairs or get a nice little one to aid in the bottom one.  

Mark i will look for this when i get to home depot.  I need one to push air to the basement and i think i might  do the same for the kitchen as well.


Oh on i side note i picked these up yesterday  (green /yellow bag) to see how these are
http://www.valfei.com/heating/premium-wood-pellets.aspx?lang=2


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## Jason (Dec 14, 2011)

sih hardwood pellets said:
			
		

> I agree with Snowy.  I currently have my stove in the lower level, granted I have 600 sq ft of living quarters down stairs and 640 sq ft upstairs, not the Taj Ma Hall(?), but I close all supply register vents in the basement, except the one over the top of the stove.  I have a cold air return in the upstairs hallway and one in about the center of the basement.  I wired my circulation fan from my furnace to the heat circuit on the Thermostat. (wired a second thermostat near waterlines in case pellet stove fails it will kick on the gas furnace.)  My thermostat is upstairs and so when it gets cooler than what I have the Tstat set for the it kicks on the fan and starts to bring the warm air upstairs.  I can keep my up and downstairs with in 4-5 degrees this way, which I prefer to sleep in cooler temperature. Oh yeah, kitchen, bath, living room DS and 2 Bedrooms, Bath, and Hobby room upstairs.  If I would decide to run my fan all the time I can keep the two levels within 1-2 degrees.



how do you hooked up a fan to a tstat? cause mine run 24/7


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## nmerkley (Dec 14, 2011)

I am talking about my Furnace fan and the thermostat that controls my A/C and Furnace.  Your furnace has a common and than different terminals for either heat, fan, A/C, ..... some will have less some more.  What your thermostat does is close the circuit between common and which ever function you want on.  Now I am only familiar with my setup, others may be different.  But I disconnected the Heat terminal from my Thermostat and jumpered over from the Fan terminal.  That way whether I turn the fan on from the tstat or the heat drops below the set point the furnace fan will run.  Than I went to the furnace and pulled a second lead from the common and one from the heat terminal to a cheap slide type thermostat so that if the pellet stove fails Or I am not around to refill it, or for what ever reason the gas furnace will kick on. I leave it set at 55F.


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## DexterDay (Dec 14, 2011)

Blowing the Cold air down the steps will yield better results than blowing the warm air up. Colder air is more dense and will "find" the warm air easier. Then the warm air downstairs will replace the cold air being fed downstairs, with warm air coming up the stairway. It will also slightly pressurize the basement and force warm air through the vents.

The vent above your stove should be looked at also. Most through the floor vents have to be at least 10 ft away from the stove. For fire reasons. Also may want to look into fusible link floor vents. As most towns codes dont allow natural draft vents (for fire safety reasons). 

I would try to reverse your airflow that you have going now. Heating my home, just using the woodstove in the basement is possible. But blowing the warm air up, does not work nowhere near as well as blowong cold air down.

Ask that question in the "Hearth Room" here,  where many people heat with woodstoves in the basement. Cold air will replace warm air, faster than warm to cold. Or just roam through the numerous airflow threads there.

Just a thought. As your results may not be tremendously greater. But it will improve.


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## Jason (Dec 14, 2011)

sih hardwood pellets said:
			
		

> I am talking about my Furnace fan and the thermostat that controls my A/C and Furnace.  Your furnace has a common and than different terminals for either heat, fan, A/C, ..... some will have less some more.  What your thermostat does is close the circuit between common and which ever function you want on.  Now I am only familiar with my setup, others may be different.  But I disconnected the Heat terminal from my Thermostat and jumpered over from the Fan terminal.  That way whether I turn the fan on from the tstat or the heat drops below the set point the furnace fan will run.  Than I went to the furnace and pulled a second lead from the common and one from the heat terminal to a cheap slide type thermostat so that if the pellet stove fails Or I am not around to refill it, or for what ever reason the gas furnace will kick on. I leave it set at 55F.



ok i got a different setup is a duct fan plug into the wall outlet


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## Snowy Rivers (Dec 14, 2011)

The air handler is the furnace.  (Central heating system)

Snoop around the furnace, there should be a way to open a door or panel that covers the filter.

If you open up the filter panel this will allow the fan to suck in the warm air from the basement and shove it out through the duct work and into the house.

If you cover the return air vents wih  a rug or if they are in a wall, use a temporary cardboard cover.

This will force the air return to use the stair well and right back down to the basement and be heated.

Your furnace should have a way to turn on just the fan without running the Heating portion (Burner)

This may be on the T Stat or a siwtch on the furnace itself.

My unit has a combination switch that allows me to use the fans only with a switch on the Stat.

If you can use your furnace fan to move the warm air, your good to go.

These fans can move a huge amount of air, as compared to the little fans in the Pellet stove itself.

Once you get the basement toasty just a short time with the fans on should get the house comfy.

With the return vents closed off the air will be forced to use the stairwell and it will just do just that.

If you want to see whats going on, just tie up some 6 inch long strips of single thickness toilet paper  (about 1/3 inch wide) using some thread and a thumb tack.

Do this in the stair well. These will act just like a wind sock at the airport and you can then see whats going on.

I really dont think this is going to be a real issue if you can get the air handler to move the air for you.

Having several small rooms can be a problem to get the air to flow naturally.

Good luck and keep us posted

OH, if you run into any issues, Post a piccy of the furnace room and furnace so we can see wasssup there.

Snowy


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## MarkF48 (Dec 14, 2011)

There are a few posts here suggesting use of the air handling system of the furnace. From some of the images Jeff posted I'm inclined to think he may have a hot water baseboard heating system with a boiler that also does hot water, not forced hot air. Jeff can probably confirm this.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

Yep that is a good ole bog standard hydronic heating unit that Jeff has, no air moving system at all.

Jeff, 

According to a resident stove expert, stove dealer, and seller of the model stove you have that 812-4900 blower is a 160 CFM unit and if we can get things going it will take more than 119.3 minutes to pull all the air in the house through it.

Now here comes another question what are your feelings on putting an OAK on that stove?  The combustion blower running on high is going to remove a few tens of cubic feet per minute (some bog standard units at full bore do 60-70 CFM one I'm aware of the Bella does 100 CFM) from the house.


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## Snowy Rivers (Dec 15, 2011)

Here is a suggestion.

If you have a spot that you can comfortably (without pissing off the Missus) cut a 6" hole in the floor upstairs, scrounge up a self contained furnace blower (motor built in) and find a suitable spot in the basement and hook this puppy up to suck the warm air near the stove and blow it up through a light weight aluminum duct pipe to the upstairs.

You could do this in such a way that it would be very unobtrusive and then just store the fan in the summer.

Do a nice register in the upstairs floor and hook everything up neat and tidy.

Just some thoughts.

Out here in the PNW we rarely see boilers, but more forced air stuff.

Snowy


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeff already has several vents cut through the floor.


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## checkthisout (Dec 15, 2011)

DexterDay said:
			
		

> The vent above your stove should be looked at also. Most through the floor vents have to be at least 10 ft away from the stove. For fire reasons. Also may want to look into fusible link floor vents. As most towns codes dont allow natural draft vents (for fire safety reasons).



Never understood how it could be a fire issue when you have a huge fawk'n hole right where the stairs go into the basement.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

Hey guys sorry i had work and some stuff going yesterday but yes Smokey and Mark you are correct.  I have no air vents just hot water baseboard heat.  TO add to Smokeys post yes i have 3 vents already cut in the floor.  LR, Kithcen and down  the hallway.  What i did is like Jason stated.  I went to home depot yesterday and bought 2 register ducts for under the floor.  I added a exhaust fan to each one with a adjustable, directional 6 inch diameter piping asnd screwed it and wired it to have them suck into the basement.  I could feel the cold air before falling in to the basement so i wanted to help move more of the cold air down to be reheated and make pressure to have the hot air rise up the stair way.  I left the LR vent alone as one it is right near the stove and 2 ive already spent a good chunk of change on all this.  Also like SMokey stated i tried a Poor mans way with blocking the stairway for the time being.  I laid big blankets over the railings before spending money of boarding or plexi to do this.  

Here are a few picks of what i did.
This one is in the laundry room and is sucking air from US to the basement.  I have it pointed to blow towards to room with the stove. Then i have an ocilating fan halfway between blowing towards the stove.  The ocilating fan is stationary and not moving.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

This vent is in the kitchen blowing towards the stove.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

Smokey , MArk , Jason,  am i correct in have the fans blow the cold air down to the basement.  My wife thinks i should have it reversed and blowing the warm air in the basement up into the main floor thru these vents....?


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## bonesy (Dec 15, 2011)

Cold air is easier to move than warm air...


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## checkthisout (Dec 15, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Smokey , MArk , Jason,  am i correct in have the fans blow the cold air down to the basement.  My wife thinks i should have it reversed and blowing the warm air in the basement up into the main floor thru these vents....?



Do like I said and try it with it blowing up first. Let it run for an hour or two without any of the other devices. 

You are obviously willing to put quite a bit of time and effort and into this. You will succeed!

Since you are willing to cut holes and have ductwork and what not, the best option is merely to continue the ductwork from holes you made and place a scoop directly over the face of the outlet on the stove and put the heat upstairs this way.


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## Jason (Dec 15, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Smokey , MArk , Jason,  am i correct in have the fans blow the cold air down to the basement.  My wife thinks i should have it reversed and blowing the warm air in the basement up into the main floor thru these vents....?



well i did try the other way blowing hot air up with the duct fan but was not working to good. From the picture you have i have the same setup and this was the best way in my house(same stairway with open rail and blocking the rail so cold air will not go into the stairs and make a air block). Also did put a fan like you did to push hot air up the stairs but did try without it and feeling less draft in the house. i just let the air go up naturally. But your,re correct having the fan blowing cold air down to the basement. You can try it other way around and see what it does. Do some test to find the right path for you air. Did you find any difference so far with this setup. But you have to let the air circulate for a few hours and then see how your first level heats up.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

Checkthisout said:
			
		

> You are obviously willing to put quite a bit of time and effort and into this. You will succeed!
> 
> Since you are willing to cut holes and have ductwork and what not, the best option is merely to continue the ductwork from holes you made and place a scoop directly over the face of the outlet on the stove and put the heat upstairs this way.




Hahaahha funny you say this.  My wife is getting annoyed at my time spent on working on this and trying different things.

Do you think blowing up would work .  Wouldnt the warm air fight the cold air that is heavier and wanting to fall?   ALso i stated that to her last night about just running more duct to in front of the stove.  Thats gotta wait as shes mad at the money i have spent lately of possible solutions to this.  But i like figuring out stuff and spending money to see what works and what doesnt.. hahahaah


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## DexterDay (Dec 15, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Checkthisout said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pushing cold air down the steps will yield better results. As cold air is more dense and will be replaced by the natural rising warm air. Laws of thermodynamics. Easier to get the cold to warm. 

Looks like your on the right path. Shouldnt need any more holes. Just need to get the air to flow through the ones you have. I would blow cold down the steps, and pull up from the holes/registers.

I cant get my upstairs to 60* if I try blowing air up. Blow cold air down and can get it 70* with the woodeater. 

Get enough air movement and it may not matter whats doing what. But then your gonna have 10 fans running and the noise that comes with them.


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## jtakeman (Dec 15, 2011)

If the fans in the duct are forcing cold air to the basement area and the fan in the stair well is doing the same. Your not creating a good loop. I'd reverse the fans in the duct to force the warm air upstairs and leave the fan in the stair well to force the cold air down stairs. Should give better circulation.

Or do the exact opposite. But don't have all the fans doing the same thing!


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## Jack Morrissey (Dec 15, 2011)

I may have missed it, but I didnt see where you guys spend most of your time - upstairs or downstairs?  If upstairs then I think you should put it upstairs.  I have a split level also and have our stove upstairs, downstairs is finished and gets down to about 50 in the coldest weather but were ok with that.


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## MarkF48 (Dec 15, 2011)

My choice would be to have the fans pull the warm air from the cellar ceiling and push it up through the vents. The cool air return would be down your stairwell. You could also remove the angled elbows on the booster fan.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

Jeff stop what you are doing.  

You need to think, not just buy a pile of duct and make a mess of your house.

There needs to be a circulation loop setup.  

You have a choice of how and what part of the loop is the cold air return and what part is the warm air ONLY if you are going to completely force the issue with ductwork to the stove which all most all of them do not allow nor have they been tested for running in that manner.

These two must be separated from each other.

This is done usually by placing the cold air portion further from the heat source than the warm air portion and for a none forced setup (gravity hot air) it is the only way they work well.

The stairwell may not be the best place for the cold air return.  

You need to draw a diagram to scale showing where the stove is, all of your vents, walls, door ways in the basement, and the stairwell.  

This should have been done before even cutting any holes.

ETA: My wife would have killed me if I had done anything like that until I had it on paper and talked to several folks about it.  It is a he!! of a lot easier to use an eraser to move stuff than a sawsall, I have both and prefer the eraser method.


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 15, 2011)

You really have two logical choices.  1) Move it upstairs, which everyone urges you to do.   2) Replace your small floor vents that do little to let the air upstairs to the old, old style large floor vents that some of us had in our homes growing up.  14" square vents are still available and will allow that hot air to really flow.  That's 5X the area of a standard floor grate.

http://www.amazon.com/American-Meta...ref=sr_1_8?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1323959948&sr=1-8

http://www.signaturehardware.com/product18315  (the 14 x 14 size)

http://www.buyfloorregisters.com/product.php?productid=17233&cat=377&page=1


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## Chain (Dec 15, 2011)

I'd move the stove upstairs and buy a couple cheaper electric heaters to utilize in the basement when things get a bit nippy down there.  Like these for instance:

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## MarkF48 (Dec 15, 2011)

Chain said:
			
		

> I'd move the stove upstairs and buy a couple cheaper electric heaters to utilize in the basement when things get a bit nippy down there.  Like these for instance:
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


With the oil fired boiler in Jeff's basement that is used for hot water as well as heating, depending on how well the basement is insulated, the heat loss from the boiler just producing hot water may be enough to take some of the chill off the basement. I replaced an oil fired stand alone water heating unit with a well insulated electric unit. The basement temp dropped about 5 degrees with the removal of the oil fired water heater. Since I've started running the pellet stove in my first floor living room, the basement seems to have settled to about 50 deg F and it hasn't really been cold yet. I have an electric heater in my basement workshop area, but it takes so long for this to try to warm things up I'm usually finished in the workshop before it warms up any amount.

While moving the stove upstairs may be a better option for heating, not everyone has the space to do so and you make do with what you can.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

Ok im getting a little overwhelmed.  I thought putting in the vents in the floor would allow the hot air to rise as it gets stuck to the ceiling downstairs.  I did put in the booster forthe vents and had them suck down as i thought cold air is heavier therefor at the bottom of the floor making it easy for the old air to fall.  I know this negates what i just stated as warm air rise but i would use the stairs to allow the warm air up.   I did go DS and reverse the booster for the kitchen to blow air up to the living level.  I left the one in the laundry room as it is farthest from the stove to still suck cold air down.  Im not drilling more holes, not at least until i get a definitive result or answer on what is working for me.  
I just started burning hardwood pellets from the SW and notice im getting the flame i had before and that the manuf states i  should have.  

Im go post a 3rd grade redition of my inerior U S and D S in a sec


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

I could have the room upstairs i would have to move stuff and that is my last ditch effort.  I think i can make it work in the basement i just have to keep playing with it.  
Yes the DS before the stove was always a smidge warmer than up i think due to the furnace room.  
Here is my UPstairs
and downstairs


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## Chain (Dec 15, 2011)

Another option would be to move your new stove upstairs and look for a small, used pellet stove to install in the basement and only use it when it gets real cold down there.  Like maybe the cheaper yet still somewhat reliable stoves you can purchase from big box retail outlets.  I see those brands on Craigslist quite frequently here in upstate, NY.  I would imagine in the MA area they're always available for purchase.  Just a thought....


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 15, 2011)

My point was that those two little vents aren't going to do diddly to let enough hot air upstairs.  You need to go BOLD IF you are committed to keeping the stove in the basement.  I used to have a tri-level with a coal stove in the lowest level.  I put one of those large grates in the hallway upstairs and immediately had a RUSH of hot air come through the hole.  My third level was almost as warm as downstairs.  

Of course, you have to be committed to cut a large hole in your floor between floor joists but it will work.  Even if you eventually decide to move the stove upstairs, you can block off the floor vent and still have a very attractive ornate floor decoration.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

First ditch those elbows, have the fans in those ceiling vents blow upwards, remove all other fans.  Try that for at least 4 hours and let us know what happens.

This brings up the question of how much heated air you are going to get up through those vents and the fact that your stove can only provide 160 CFM of heated air at maximum burn (two hours per air exchange assuming things that don't actually happen, hence the 4 hour evaluation period).

I've got to go back to see what you answered to my inquiry about installing an OAK.

The ideal set up would have several vents that were on the floor around the exterior walls upstairs and a lot less wall or most doors open, then you could ditch the fans and have the heat come up the stairwell.   This emulates a bog standard old fashioned gravity feed hot air system.  The stove would have to angled to point at the tv.   

Just so everyone understands this is a test the only direct path to the floor of the basement where the cold air is wanted is down the stairs, without a means to section the air in the stairwell off into two parts effectively we are going to reverse the air flow first and see what happens.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

Smokey not arguing im just curious as i dont know, why ditch the elbows.  Also since i only have the three vents so far, and only have 2 of the fans, would it be more sensible to have the booster fans at the 2 vents near the stove (without elbows) and the one in the hallway just gravity drop the cold air?  Also from my drawing (hahah) so would adding another vent near the couch in the LR since it is an exterior wall and would be about 3 feet away from the stove but in the path of the blown air?  Would that be helpful?
If im reading it right the exterior vents would have a downdraft. Then the cold air would push the hot air up the stairway creating a sort of mushroom effect.  until the point it starts recirculate warm air and the house stays at a consistant level....?


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## Jason (Dec 15, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Smokey not arguing im just curious as i dont know, why ditch the elbows.  Also since i only have the three vents so far, and only have 2 of the fans, would it be more sensible to have the booster fans at the 2 vents near the stove (without elbows) and the one in the hallway just gravity drop the cold air?  Also from my drawing (hahah) so would adding another vent near the couch in the LR since it is an exterior wall and would be about 3 feet away from the stove but in the path of the blown air?  Would that be helpful?
> If im reading it right the exterior vents would have a downdraft. Then the cold air would push the hot air up the stairway creating a sort of mushroom effect.  until the point it starts recirculate warm air and the house stays at a consistant level....?



just go with the setup you have
pull cold air down with the setup you did yesterday and let the air rise from the stair
see how it works. then youll see. start with those two paths.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Smokey not arguing im just curious as i dont know, why ditch the elbows.  Also since i only have the three vents so far, and only have 2 of the fans, would it be more sensible to have the booster fans at the 2 vents near the stove (without elbows) and the one in the hallway just gravity drop the cold air?  Also from my drawing (hahah) so would adding another vent near the couch in the LR since it is an exterior wall and would be about 3 feet away from the stove but in the path of the blown air?  Would that be helpful?
> If im reading it right the exterior vents would have a downdraft. Then the cold air would push the hot air up the stairway creating a sort of mushroom effect.  until the point it starts recirculate warm air and the house stays at a consistant level....?



They are not needed and present resistance to the air flow (minimal but we don't need any).

The problem with that is the stove and the vents are out of position relative to each other and the cold air needs to get to floor level where the convection fans intake is.   The fastest and most direct path with a ton of cold air just itching to come on down is your stairwell.


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## MarkF48 (Dec 15, 2011)

As suggested have the fans blow upward to pull the warm air from the basement ceiling into the rooms above. The elbows are not needed and since they extend further down into the basement area, they may not be pulling the warmest air which would be available at the upper most ceiling height. It will take a while for the upstairs rooms to come up in temperature as SmokeyTheBear had mentioned. 
I have a two story old farmhouse. With one vent (roughly 8"x8") fan blowing upwards from the kitchen to a second floor room I can maintain about 68-70 F downstairs and 64-65 F in the upstairs rooms. The stairway is my return cold air path. I've run it this way for some 20 years beginning with a wood stove and it's worked OK for me. Not every house will be the same and it may take some experimentation to get what you want. Some smoking incense sticks can give an idea of air flow direction.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

The old gravity feed hot air furnaces had one huge floor register, they were configured so the outside jacket was the cold air return and the inside area with the firebox in it was the outside of the hot air plenum (and the inside of the cold air return) which extended to just below the register.  So the cold air poured (and that is the word for it) down the cold air return getting heated fairly fast near the bottom and by the time it made the turn it was really hot and hauling tail for the ceiling.   The old places usually had two stairways to the upper floors and in the furtherest rooms from the stair ways a floor vent.  Far more cold air went down through that vent than warm air ever made it up.  The whole house became one hot air pump.  Worked quite well.  But placement played a key role as to how well.  Oh and one other thing you always wore slippers and kept your feet up on foot stools in the room with the big vent in it, that cold air flow was quite noticeable. 

Those were that days that bears were bears and shoveled the tonnage both into the furnace and out of the ash pit.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

ok i have the 2 near the stove blowing up and i have a box fan at the bottom of the stairs sucking the air from upstairs to DS


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## MarkF48 (Dec 15, 2011)

Myself, I'd try it without the box fan for a while and see if a natural return flow occurs. Do you have thermometer you could hang up near the basement ceiling not near a vent? Just to give an idea of the temp of the air you could pull upstairs.

Where in Central MA are you? Brookfield here.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> ok i have the 2 near the stove blowing up and i have a box fan at the bottom of the stairs sucking the air from upstairs to DS



Reset your clocks and dump that fan.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

Mark, im in Leicester...15.20 minutes away.  Smokey.. reset my clocks?  I shut the box fan off DS we will see what happens.  Oh never mind for the 4hrs you mean right?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Mark, im in Leicester...15.20 minutes away.  Smokey.. reset my clocks?  I shut the box fan off DS we will see what happens.  Oh never mind for the 4hrs you mean right?



Ayuh


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## tjnamtiw (Dec 15, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Oh and one other thing you always wore slippers and kept your feet up on foot stools in the room with the big vent in it, that cold air flow was quite noticeable.
> 
> Those were that days that bears were bears and shoveled the tonnage both into the furnace and out of the ash pit.



Yep, you've been there too!    Those monsters were not exactly efficient like the new ones.  The new ones like I list in other threads are bordering on 85%, which is amazing.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 15, 2011)

tjnamtiw said:
			
		

> SmokeyTheBear said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I've been there done that in fact I tore down a chimney from the inside of my house, positioned all of the replacement parts on each of four floors and after the rebuild.  I restored an old Glenwood solid fuel furnace with coal grates.

That could dump plenty of heat and move a couple of boat loads of air.

Let's just say the place was both plenty warm, I got plenty of exercise, and survived to tell about it.


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## checkthisout (Dec 15, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> jeff5347 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I agree with this. I hand't realized that he had booster fans in the ducts he installed. 

Those ducts pulling air up and letting the stairway act as a natural return just may get the job done.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 15, 2011)

Ok Smokey.  I turned off the box fan at 2.  It is almost 7 and i have the stove on medium and it is 70 upstairs.  It has risen slowly....   Also it has been about 47-48-49-50 degrees outside adn when outside changes a degree inside does to but its up to 70 better than yesterday at this time... again it was i think in the mid 30s yesterday.  I think this might be what i ws looking for.  Im gonna go back to some New England Pellets too as i saw a better flame with them .  I will keep all posted.

PS:  also t note might degree diff between DS and US is tighteneing up.  US is 70.4 and down in about 76-77.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 16, 2011)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Ok Smokey.  I turned off the box fan at 2.  It is almost 7 and i have the stove on medium and it is 70 upstairs.  It has risen slowly....   Also it has been about 47-48-49-50 degrees outside adn when outside changes a degree inside does to but its up to 70 better than yesterday at this time... again it was i think in the mid 30s yesterday.  I think this might be what i ws looking for.  Im gonna go back to some New England Pellets too as i saw a better flame with them .  I will keep all posted.
> 
> PS:  also t note might degree diff between DS and US is tighteneing up.  US is 70.4 and down in about 76-77.



Jeff,

Do you know what the flow rates are on your fans you have in those vents?  Increasing this would be the next change along with something that I won't mention if this is all that is needed.

Your basement is now a forced hot air furnace plenum.  

Likely a few changes are going to be needed, I'd get that ceiling back up and something that looks decent up there so it keeps the missus happy or the dog house will be your house.

When I put the stove in here I was wondering if things were going to work out and tried playing with the fans (have three huge ceiling jobs that are silent run very well on low and move a lot of air).  

I don't use them.

And look ma no holes in the floor.

My stove is rarely at firing rate 3 out of 5 which is the fifth of the seven heat settings available (there are actually three firing rate one settings).   I'm still playing and I'm currently happy enough that I have a t-stat I'm going to hook up.


Keep us up to date.


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## MarkF48 (Dec 16, 2011)

Jeff,
On your house layout diagram you showed a room noted as "Daughter". Having had kids years ago, they seem to like having bedroom doors closed. For me this led to complaints such as, "Hey Dad my rooms freezin'". The heat that may be meandering around upstairs won't get in the room unless the door is open. Just giving a hint of what to maybe expect  

Glad to hear you're getting some of that heat up there now. It's been mild around here and the test will come when we get back to the 20-30's .

One other question..... your vent pipe goes out your basement window. Does it simply go straight out or does it have a vertical upright piece on it. If it goes straight out how much clearance do you have to the ground. Just make sure it's high enough not to get covered with snow. Maybe not a problem if the stove is running, but if it's out for a while for some reason, you don't want the end of the vent plugged up with snow on a start.


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## Countryboymo (Dec 16, 2011)

I would say some caulk and spray foam are in order for the basement first.  I bet if you open the tiles in the basement where plumbing goes up at the bathroom(s) and other areas a long with wires and whatever else you will probably find large oversize holes that will act like a chimney to the same holes in the attic.  The heat for some reason will go like mad up the wall and into the attic.  I would go to the attic next and seal as a caulking gun and case of spray foam are the best weapons for saving money. 

 I had a energy audit and have 14 recessed lights and in the audit he used a flow hood and checked the cfm at every register and vent along with each recessed light.  The ducts were horribly leaky and needed sealed with mastic which helped tremendously.  The recessed lights by themselves were leaking 5-7cfm each with the cheap trim rings that were installed which doesn't seem alarming... but thats 420 cubic feet of conditioned air an hour at 5cfm and 10,080 cubic feet per day which is the alarming part.  I put sealed trim rings in which dropped each one down around 1cfm if its windy.   If you can stop the 'chimney affect' from the basement up that alone will make a considerable difference.  

For anyone interested there is a better way to seal recessed lights than the trim rings that involves styrofoam 12pack coolers and some caulk and foam but in some areas it is against code to not be fire retardant.  I didn't go this way because I already had over 20" of blown in insulation to deal with going that route.  

The infrared gun don't lie on where air is leaking.  I would look around on your utilities website to see if they have an energy auditor or any program that will offer to pay for or rebate part of it.  The state might have a program also.  They are the best money you can spend because you can see the air leaks and go after the biggest ones first.  

I enjoy the energy audit stuff so anyone who is interested feel free to pm me and pick my brain.


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## jeff5347 (Dec 16, 2011)

Smokey here are the fans specs
Specifications 
Duct diameter: 6"

Unit weight: 2 lbs

Max boosted CFM: 250

Free air CFM: 160

Amps: 0.35

Housing length: 6"

dBA/Sones: 52/2.4

Blad type: Polycarbonate

Motor: 110V, Class B, Thermally Protected (TP) 


Mark, My kids are 4 so i dont have the "i hate you dad" syndrome yet.  We leave there doors oepn at night and day and all the rooms seem to equalize.  
also the vent pipe exits 16 inches off the ground and extends about a little over a foot from the house.  The end has a turn down of about 45 degrees.  Thats a good point about the snow.  


Country, i look into that to cause upstairs and downstairs has recessed lighting.  I know if i told the wife i want to work on sealing any leaks from them she will serve me for Xmas.  Today will be windy and running my new bag of New Englands today so we will see how the heating keeps up....


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## Countryboymo (Dec 16, 2011)

The air tight trim rings look the same a the plastic ones most end up with but better because they don't discolor in the kitchen area.  They are about 12 bucks on ebay or amazon.
Here is a link with reviews  http://homedepot.digby.com/homedepot/product/detail.do?itemId=100089636&categoryId;=&path;=


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## saladdin (Jan 23, 2012)

jeff5347 said:
			
		

> Smokey here are the fans specs
> Specifications
> Duct diameter: 6"
> 
> ...



Any update Jeff?


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## bcb1 (Jan 23, 2012)

If you are having issues with your pellet stove not heating your upper floor properly from your basement, keep in mind that basements are traditionally a large source of air leaks.  Not as big a source as attics but they still tend to be leaky.  Add to that the fact that you're moving warm air up through a ceiling between your basement and first floor (even with vents that you've installed) and yes, it's going to be challenging to try and heat your house from a basement pellet stove.

I'd recommend - as some others have previously - that you try and move the stove to the first floor, but if that is a no-go situation, then I'd definitely recommend hiring an energy contractor that specializes in energy audits and air leaks/sealing.  The first question you ask is if they do a blower door test.  If they say "huh?" - hang up and move on to the next one on the list.  A good energy sealing contractor will use a blower door to make your air leaks easy to find.  Many also use thermal imaging cameras to spot areas in walls and ceilings that are cold.  The fix for air leaks is not new doors, new windows, or laying down more insulation in your attic.  It's using expanding foam and rigid foam insulation board to stop air leaks - that is where you're losing most of your heat.  A good energy contractor can go through a house and air seal it properly with a hundred dollars worth of foam and insulation board, and save you a lot more money in energy bills than if you installed all new doors and windows.

We have a fairly new house, built in 2002 - in other words, up to code as far as insulation standards go - and still had serious deficiencies in our upper floor as far as heat loss.  It's a cape cod style, which are notoriously hard to properly seal correctly, much more difficult than a standard rancher or standard two story.  It's not that builders cut corners on purpose, it's just that they all pretty much make the same mistakes when it comes to air sealing.  Putting batts of insulation in wall cavities, caulking all the stud plates, throw in some R-19 or R-30 in the attic and that's pretty much it.  Blowing in 6 more inches of insulation in the attic did nothing.  I even had a 2nd floor INTERIOR bathroom water pipes freeze up due to air infiltration running under the bathroom floor.  The energy contractor came in, did a blower door test, and went about fixing all the air leaks.  He cut holes in closets, crawled into places that were seemingly impossible to get to, and used nothing more than rigid foam board and expanding foam to seal up air leaks.  He also replaced all the recessed light trim with the newer style trim that is sealed against air leaks.  The difference was astounding - not only in terms of energy savings, but also in terms of comfort level.

Sorry to be so long winded - I guess the point of my story is to find and fix your air leaks in your house - which will greatly add to your comfort level.


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## RKS130 (Jan 23, 2012)

Many utility companies will perform the energy audit for free, including infra red photos, pressure testing, etc - of course this varies widely from company to company. But they all have access to the bottomless pocket of green Federal Tax dollars to do it.  Might be worth looking in to.


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