# Fuel cells with 85% less platinum



## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 15, 2017)

Interesting new development in fuel cells:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...?utm_source=google&utm_medium=bd&cmpId=google

I've been thinking that as electric cars replace ICE and their catalytic converters coated with precious metals, the price of platinum might drop. This development portends the possibility of super cheap, mass produced fuel cells. Fuel cells might have a steeper price drop curve than batteries! If solar continues to get cheaper, hydrogen could be made with daytime surplus and burned off at night (or used for mobile applications like airplanes, long-haul trucking and railroads). Of course fuel cells also work with propane and natural gas.


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## woodgeek (Sep 17, 2017)

Here is an old (2004) study about the learning curve in PEM fuel cells (vs the SOFCs in Bloom boxes).

http://hosocon.com/css/0009447.pdf

It concludes that 100 kW fuel cell stack costs would drop to ~$6k after manufacturers have made about 5 million FC cars.  Current global sales figures recently broke 4 digits, I think.

They also say that at that point, Platinum would still be only 10% of the FC cost....it is not limiting.

Now you just need to figure out how to make and distribute H2 cheaply.

Looks like H70 stations in CA sell the stuff at about $16/kg, and that 1 kg is good for about 50 miles (in the Toyota Mirai, which you can lease today for $499/mo).

https://www.cars.com/articles/fill-er-up-refueling-the-2016-toyota-mirai-1420690448036/

That works out the be several times more expensive than gasoline.


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 17, 2017)

woodgeek said:


> That works out the be several times more expensive than gasoline.



That's current H prices. I believe it's cracked from natural gas. I'm envisioning eventually making it from water using electrolysis as solar cells drop in price and electricity is essentially free in the middle of the day. Giant plants that split H2O into hydrogen and oxygen, both valuable commodities.


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## woodgeek (Sep 17, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> That's current H prices. I believe it's cracked from natural gas. I'm envisioning eventually making it from water using electrolysis as solar cells drop in price and electricity is essentially free in the middle of the day. Giant plants that split H2O into hydrogen and oxygen, both valuable commodities.



Indeed.  That may be a reasonable thing to do for seasonal storage in a future ecotopia, since the H2 can be stored in bulk better than electrons.

And if lithium ion (or other) diurnal storage become ubiquitous, that 'free' electricity mid-day may not materialize....it might be cheap 'mid-summer' electricity.

As for the O2 value...it can be used to boost combustion efficiency (avoiding NOx production in high temps), or to facilitate CO2 capture (if you wanted to burn biomass, recover the CO2 and bury it.  I think it is **cheaper** in $$ and energy however to liquify air and distill out the O2...which is what they do now in industrial processes...and you get nice pure nitrogen that way too (since the H2O, argon and CO2 all precipitate out).  But waste not want not.


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## begreen (Sep 19, 2017)

The future is happening now in Scotland.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-41257407


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## WoodyIsGoody (Sep 19, 2017)

woodgeek said:


> And if lithium ion (or other) diurnal storage become ubiquitous, that 'free' electricity mid-day may not materialize....it might be cheap 'mid-summer' electricity.



Yes, I see your point. But I think if solar continues to fall in price, then it will make sense to install a continually increasing amount of it because it will become increasingly economical to install it just for more output during cloudy days and to increase output in the early morning and late evening hours. So there will likely always be a surplus of mid-day, sunny day electricity. 

The only way this won't happen is if the price of storage drops faster than PV by multiple factors.


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## spirilis (Sep 19, 2017)

WoodyIsGoody said:


> Yes, I see your point. But I think if solar continues to fall in price, then it will make sense to install a continually increasing amount of it because it will become increasingly economical to install it just for more output during cloudy days and to increase output in the early morning and late evening hours. So there will likely always be a surplus of mid-day, sunny day electricity.
> 
> The only way this won't happen is if the price of storage drops faster than PV by multiple factors.


Random 2 cents, I ran into a neighbor recently who's losing his job as the startup he's working for is folding ... apparently this startup did H2 production from natural gas, and he was explaining that the market really dropped out when the Space Shuttle program disbanded.  Some large percentage was quoted, like 25 or 33%, of the H2 market went towards the shuttle program, it really propped up the market.


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