# Geothermal is out! Need advice on the boiler route



## denvershepherd

Hello,

Just got my second estimate back for a geothermal instal and it was over a 100K as well.  I tried to explain to both companies that there is no reasonable time period payback in those amounts but they said it is what it is.  Anyways...someone at my work mentioned wood and coal boilers so here I am.  I'm just starting to educate myself on them so go easy on me  

I live at 7800 feet in Colorado in a 3300 sq foot home (built in 1975) that I moved into in June of 2011.  My wife and I are just finishing up our first winter.   It is heated entirely by electric baseboard and the old hot water heater is also electric.   Natural gas is not available.  I'd like to retrofit the house with in floor hydronic heat and it looks like I'm going to be going with a product called Warmboard (sub floor and pex tubing in one) as the means for doing that.  I like what I've read about a product from AHS called the "wood gun" which is a wood gasification boiler  that seems quite efficient.  I was thinking about going with coal but the price of that seems to be always on the climb and since I have access to virtually unlimited free wood at my property, it seemed like the more logical choice.  Having said that, the wood IS pine so I'm not sure if that type of wood is going to work well in the wood gun or not?  We would also need a separate propane powered system that would automatically take over if we were away for a couple days or if I let the wood run out for whatever reason. 

I have some more detailed questions but I wanted to get some general responses from you (the experts) before I go on.  

Thanks,

Neil


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## dogwood

Neil, I would suggest you try and make up a list of the available wood gasification boilers. Most are mentioned on this site. Read up on them all. You need to decide if you want to have your boiler inside or outside. Some of the more reputable indoor models I'm aware of from this site are Garn, Tarm, Froling, Effecta, Econoburn, Wood Gun, Eko, and others. There are a few reputable outside wood gasifiers too, Portage and Main, and I think Econoburn has one as well. I am less familiar with them. This list is hardly inclusive.

I would suggest you look into various heat delivery system alternatives for your home. If your home is already built, retrofitting all your floors with Warmboard would be costly and a huge, disruptive undertaking. If I were you, I would look into hydronic panel radiators, commonly used in Europe, and ideally suited for use with a wood gasification boiler, especially if you go with storage (another topic for you to explore). They can be had in various styles to suit various decors, and can use independent thermostatic valves on each radiator. They would be a much easier retofit. Many panel radiators can operate at lower water temperatures giving you longer times between firings if you use storage.

You might go to your local library and order on inter-library loan a copy of John Siegenthaler's "Modern Hydronic Heating". Its a standard reference work often recommended here. Do your research first. You're off to a good start researching and writing questions here.

Colorado is beautiful up in the mountains. Great choice for a place to live. Good luck.

Mike


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## woodsmaster

I would recomend panel rads or low temp baseboard since you already have baseboard. Lots of good gassers our there. I'd deffinitly recomend storage. It makes the boiler a lot easier to use and clean. I looked into geo before I
bought My boiler. They wanted 30,000 to do just my house. I spenthalf that and heat the house and shop. I
like my biomass a lot. The wood gun seems to be a great boiler to. Definitly take a look at the garn if you have room for it. They tend to be a little more money but are very easy to use. the frolling is a top of the line gasse made by tarm. The Effecta is another cutting edge boiler That like the frolling and Garn tend to cost a little more than most
of the other boilers. Good luck. You have your research cut out for you.


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## jebatty

Good advice above. The Wood Gun or other gasification boiler will burn any wood, pine included, so long as it is dry (20% moisture content), which is usually achievable in one full summer of cut, split and stacked wood, with good air circulation. I burn pine almost exclusively in my Tarm and have done so for 5 heating seasons.


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## henfruit

I do not think the frolings are made by Tarm?


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## willworkforwood

Welcome to the boiler room. It begins to get a bit more "quiet" here as the heating season ends, and you may not receive lots of replies to your questions.  But in the archive of past threads you can find tons of information on just about anything you might want to know about wood boilers.   As mentioned above, pine burns fine in gasifiers, but you will need to process more firewood due to the lower btu/volume ratio (versus hardwood).  But that's immaterial because you have no choice in the matter.  And the typically fast seasoning of pine will work to your advantage, especially in the first year.  Speaking of which, the best thing you can do right now is begin processing firewood for the upcoming year (as fast as you can).  You're in a great position time-wise to bring in a boiler for the upcoming heating season, and you still have lots of time for research.  But gasifiers work well only with seasoned firewood (20% or less).  Burning wood with a higher moisture content can result in operational issues and/or poor performance. So if you're serious about bringing in a boiler, then getting firewood cut, split, and stacked is you're #1 priority right now.  Good luck with your project!


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## woodsmaster

henfruit said:


> I do not think the frolings are made by Tarm?


 
Maybe not. I Know they are sold by TARM BIOMASS.
Edit: I also see they are $5,750.00 cheaper than last year with the spring sale.


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## henfruit

That is there pellet boiler. I see you recived a flyer also.


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## maple1

100k for a Geo install? Holy crap. From inquiries I've made here, I would be looking at around 30k, which would include some retrofit distribution work - I think just over 20k without any distirution work. But even at that, I also ruled out Geo for my situation.

You're in the right place - there is a ton of info on here. Just spend the next few weeks reading & digesting as much as you can to firm up your questions.


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## dogwood

Neil, how is your house configured? One story, two? Basement? What type of budget are you looking at for you new heating system? Don't mean to be intrusive, but it would help site members give you more appropriate recommendations tailored to your situation and budget. 

Mike


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## Clarkbug

I want to second what has already been mentioned above.  If its nice out, start cutting/splitting/stacking, and when it rains or is dark, you can search through threads here for ideas and to help refine your choice.  Good luck!


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## denvershepherd

dogwood said:


> Neil, how is your house configured? One story, two? Basement? What type of budget are you looking at for you new heating system? Don't mean to be intrusive, but it would help site members give you more appropriate recommendations tailored to your situation and budget.
> 
> Mike


 
It's kind of a strange layout.  It's 4 levels.  The 1st level is a garage that was converted to a living space.  The 2nd level is the kitchen , dining , and main living room.  This level has 25 foot ceilings.  The 3rd level is a bathroom and three bedrooms which has 9 foot ceilings.  The 4th level is the laundry room , master bedroom and master bathroom.  The second level (the 25 foot ceilings) has two walls that are around 80% windows (south facing thank goodness).  In terms of budget I was kinda expecting the geo to be around 30-35 thousand so I guess the budget is still in that ballpark..


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## denvershepherd

maple1 said:


> 100k for a Geo install? Holy crap. From inquiries I've made here, I would be looking at around 30k, which would include some retrofit distribution work - I think just over 20k without any distirution work. But even at that, I also ruled out Geo for my situation.
> 
> You're in the right place - there is a ton of info on here. Just spend the next few weeks reading & digesting as much as you can to firm up your questions.


 
I think the drilling is what killed me.  I live on a huge rock so the loop would have to be a vertical one and drilling through rock is not cheap!


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## denvershepherd

dogwood said:


> Neil, I would suggest you try and make up a list of the available wood gasification boilers. Most are mentioned on this site. Read up on them all. You need to decide if you want to have your boiler inside or outside. Some of the more reputable indoor models I'm aware of from this site are Garn, Tarm, Froling, Effecta, Econoburn, Wood Gun, Eko, and others. There are a few reputable outside wood gasifiers too, Portage and Main, and I think Econoburn has one as well. I am less familiar with them. This list is hardly inclusive.
> 
> I would suggest you look into various heat delivery system alternatives for your home. If your home is already built, retrofitting all your floors with Warmboard would be costly and a huge, disruptive undertaking. If I were you, I would look into hydronic panel radiators, commonly used in Europe, and ideally suited for use with a wood gasification boiler, especially if you go with storage (another topic for you to explore). They can be had in various styles to suit various decors, and can use independent thermostatic valves on each radiator. They would be a much easier retofit. Many panel radiators can operate at lower water temperatures giving you longer times between firings if you use storage.
> 
> You might go to your local library and order on inter-library loan a copy of John Siegenthaler's "Modern Hydronic Heating". Its a standard reference work often recommended here. Do your research first. You're off to a good start researching and writing questions here.
> 
> Colorado is beautiful up in the mountains. Great choice for a place to live. Good luck.
> 
> Mike


 
I mentioned the hydronic panel radiators to my wife but she has her mind set on replacing all the floors in the home with some type of stone/tile and our concern is that without the in floor radiant heat the tile will be cool and maybe uncomfortable in the winter?  I don't know if this is true or not.  I agree that the Warmboard is not the cheapest as we have already got quotes from them, but from what I've read it is a very good product.  Anyone here use it?

I see plenty of messages in here regarding "Storage".  Is the purpose of "Storage" so that when more hot water is called for to heat the house the boiler will not have to fire up again and instead the hot water is taken out of the storage tanks?   Using this method don't you run the risk of heating the water in the storage tank to only have it cool off by the time it is needed?  I'm sure I'm missing something fundamental here because everywhere I've read people mention that you should have "Storage".    Also, I may be looking at the wrong storage tanks but when I Google for "500 gallon hot water storage tanks"  the cheapest one that comes up is a little over $34000.  Is that really what these storage tanks cost or am I looking at a completely different type of storage tank?


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## denvershepherd

willworkforwood said:


> Welcome to the boiler room. It begins to get a bit more "quiet" here as the heating season ends, and you may not receive lots of replies to your questions. But in the archive of past threads you can find tons of information on just about anything you might want to know about wood boilers. As mentioned above, pine burns fine in gasifiers, but you will need to process more firewood due to the lower btu/volume ratio (versus hardwood). But that's immaterial because you have no choice in the matter. And the typically fast seasoning of pine will work to your advantage, especially in the first year. Speaking of which, the best thing you can do right now is begin processing firewood for the upcoming year (as fast as you can). You're in a great position time-wise to bring in a boiler for the upcoming heating season, and you still have lots of time for research. But gasifiers work well only with seasoned firewood (20% or less). Burning wood with a higher moisture content can result in operational issues and/or poor performance. So if you're serious about bringing in a boiler, then getting firewood cut, split, and stacked is you're #1 priority right now. Good luck with your project!


 
So this cut, split and stacked wood, can I store it outside exposed to the rain over the summer?  We get a lot more sun than rain here in Colorado mind you.   Do I need to build some kind of wood storage unit?   Do they sell such things?


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## woodsmaster

Denver sheperd,  As far as your floor being warm, that depends on the temperature of water you need to heat your house. Not all radiant floors feel warm such as in a well insulated house. You would have to do a heat loss calc. to determine the temp of water you need to heat your rooms. As for storage tanks many of use make our own out of
propane tanks. Used 500 gallon goes for around $200.00 or you can buy new for around $2,000.00 I think. There are some 400 gallon pre insulated tanks made for boilers that are around 4 - 5 K. You dont have to have covered wood storage for all your wood but it is nice to keep a cord dry and warm by the boiler and of course a wood shed is nice to have.


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## woodsmaster

Oh ya, storage allows you to burn your wood up at full speed creating a hot clean burn. then after the fire is out when you have a call for heat it draws water out of the tank. Most people insulate the tanks good to minimize heat loss. If the tank is in the living space any heat loss would be to in the house. I have my storage in a shed with the boiler and the tanks and shed are well insulated. It works nice. Im currently burning 1/2 a load every 3 days for Domestic hot water. That is another advantage to storage. You can search the old threads for lots of info on storage and every thing else.


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## dogwood

Neil, like mentioned above, you don't want to be burning all the time. You heat your storage tank by running your boiler full bore, which is the most efficient way to fire a gassifier. And then when the tank, say a thousand gallon propane tank for your sized home, is up to temp, 180+, you then heat your home by circulating the tanks heated water to your heat emitters. When the water in the tank gets to a low enough temperature that won't effectively heat your home, maybe a third to half day or more later, depending on the time of year, you load and fire up the boiler again. The lower the water temp your heat emitters can utilize the longer you can go between burns.

Panel rads can have useable temps down to 120 or more, if I remember correctly, which is exceptional. Not sure about radiant floor heat. You can plumb your system so you heat your home directly from the boiler as the the boiler is recharging the tank. Go to the Tarm Biomass site and look at their book of plumbing schematics: http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf. Check out this article in Idronics Magazine too: http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_10_us.pdf.

With the budget you are talking about you should be able to get a state of the art system. I'd be thinking of a Garn (integral storage) or Froling, or other high end boiler, with plenty of storage. Check out their websites. I was quoted $1,200 for a brand new 1000 gallon propane tank, paid $800 for one used.

You can cover the top only of your stacked wood with a a roll of clear plastic (vapor barrier from Lowes or Home Depot) if you don't have a woodshed. By the way, I have 3/4" oak flooring upstairs, and ceramic tile downstairs in the kitchen and bath on an insulated slab in a 3000 sq. ft. home and the floors are never cold. I'm in my stocking feet as I type this. On the other hand I hear radiant floors are particularly comfy and unhappy wives particularly discomfitting.

Mike


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## huffdawg

Wow 100k . a friend of mine has geothermal  , he heats 5000sq ft.   he paid $30'000    he has the one with the tubing installed in trenches dug about 6 feet deep.   For 100k they must have quoted for the drilled type. seems like they would be drilling to the earths core for that price.
My friend pays $300.00  per month on  equal payment plan for  electricity.
Huff


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## willworkforwood

denvershepherd said:


> So this cut, split and stacked wood, can I store it outside exposed to the rain over the summer? We get a lot more sun than rain here in Colorado mind you. Do I need to build some kind of wood storage unit? Do they sell such things?


Although some cover firewood year round, the consensus is to leave it uncovered until the Fall rain/snow shows up in the long-range forecast, and then top cover only. A wood shed is certainly a nice-to-have, but not required (I, and many others here don't have one). Figure out how you will be bringing the wood in before beginning to stack - it's not a happy thing to haul it 300' over ice or snow-covered ground. If you have done little or no firewood in the past, read "To Fell A Tree" by Jeff Jepson, before starting in with a chainsaw. That will get you off to a good and safe start.  And, you can also read and post questions on the "Wood Shed" forum about anything related to processing firewood, and the 'Gear" forum on anything equipment-related.


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## woodsmaster

The wood is more work than geothermal but you will have a lower electric bill with a boiler and hydronic emmiters.
The 300 huff quoted is right in line with a friend of mine that has geothermal. I heat more space then him and have half the electic bill. The money I save on electric comarably would buy all the wood I use. Of course you still have to move wood and load the boiler but nothing is free.


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## denvershepherd

woodsmaster said:


> Denver sheperd, As far as your floor being warm, that depends on the temperature of water you need to heat your house. Not all radiant floors feel warm such as in a well insulated house. You would have to do a heat loss calc. to determine the temp of water you need to heat your rooms. As for storage tanks many of use make our own out of
> propane tanks. Used 500 gallon goes for around $200.00 or you can buy new for around $2,000.00 I think. There are some 400 gallon pre insulated tanks made for boilers that are around 4 - 5 K. You dont have to have covered wood storage for all your wood but it is nice to keep a cord dry and warm by the boiler and of course a wood shed is nice to have.


 
I have practically a whole book of numbers from the GEO estimate in regards to the heat loss calc,  but I think the number you are after is the "Total Heating Required"?  The number they have is 78148 Btuh (I think this is British Thermal Units per hour).  How that translates into what temperature I need to have in the water I'm not sure. 

Back to storage for a moment.... For the in floor radiant wouldn't I need to have a glycol mixture flowing through the pex pipe to avoid freezing in the event of a power outage?  If the water did have glycol would I have one storage unit with glycol used specifically for the pex tubing and another storage for DHW that just had regular hot water?  I wouldn't want to be taking a glycol shower 

Neil


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## denvershepherd

dogwood said:


> Neil, like mentioned above, you don't want to be burning all the time. You heat your storage tank by running your boiler full bore, which is the most efficient way to fire a gassifier. And then when the tank, say a thousand gallon propane tank for your sized home, is up to temp, 180+, you then heat your home by circulating the tanks heated water to your heat emitters. When the water in the tank gets to a low enough temperature that won't effectively heat your home, maybe a third to half day or more later, depending on the time of year, you load and fire up the boiler again. The lower the water temp your heat emitters can utilize the longer you can go between burns.
> 
> Panel rads can have useable temps down to 120 or more, if I remember correctly, which is exceptional. Not sure about radiant floor heat. You can plumb your system so you heat your home directly from the boiler as the the boiler is recharging the tank. Go to the Tarm Biomass site and look at their book of plumbing schematics: http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf. Check out this article in Idronics Magazine too: http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_10_us.pdf.
> 
> With the budget you are talking about you should be able to get a state of the art system. I'd be thinking of a Garn (integral storage) or Froling, or other high end boiler, with plenty of storage. Check out their websites. I was quoted $1,200 for a brand new 1000 gallon propane tank, paid $800 for one used.
> 
> You can cover the top only of your stacked wood with a a roll of clear plastic (vapor barrier from Lowes or Home Depot) if you don't have a woodshed. By the way, I have 3/4" oak flooring upstairs, and ceramic tile downstairs in the kitchen and bath on an insulated slab in a 3000 sq. ft. home and the floors are never cold. I'm in my stocking feet as I type this. On the other hand I hear radiant floors are particularly comfy and unhappy wives particularly discomfitting.
> 
> Mike


 

Nice information on those links, thanks. 

Are Garn and Froling considered "better" than say an AHS wood gun?  What would make these products superior?  I'm sure there are certain boilers that are better than others just like a BMW would be considered superior to say a Saturn.  No offense to any Saturn owners.    With all the knowledge you and the other members on here have regarding boilers, I would be interested to hear if there would be a clear cut winner on choice if money were no object.

I looked at the Garn and it looks great but its 9 feet long and the utility room in my house is only 10' by 9' so it would be super tight.  I'm not opposed to knocking down the wall and expanding the utility room if I have to but is a 10'X9' utility room going to be sufficient space to get a wood boiler and storage in place in your opinion?

I hear you on the wives comment.  I got an ear full when I declared GEO was off the table.

Neil


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## denvershepherd

huffdawg said:


> Wow 100k . a friend of mine has geothermal , he heats 5000sq ft. he paid $30'000 he has the one with the tubing installed in trenches dug about 6 feet deep. For 100k they must have quoted for the drilled type. seems like they would be drilling to the earths core for that price.
> My friend pays $300.00 per month on equal payment plan for electricity.
> Huff


 

Ya, it seemed high to me as well but I guess when you are drilling straight down through solid rock the price tag goes up   I'm encouraged more and more as I read more about these wood boilers though


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## infinitymike

Denvershepherd, Welcome to the forum, You are in the right place and are asking great questions.
You will definitely find a tremendous amount of information here. 

Typically you wouldn't have glycol in the system unless the Boiler or storage tank were outside and at risk of freezing. There are some guys here who have there boilers hooked up to a backup power source such as a battery pack.
Thats a good question about the separate tanks for heating and domestic water which I don't have a confident answer for. What I do know, is that with or with out gylcol the heated water from the boiler NEVER mixes with the domestic water anyway. The only way for contamination would be for the heating coil to deteriorate  allowing for the the fluids to mix. What the possibilities of that happening, I don't know.

Take heed to the advice given about getting your wood cut/ split/stacked  (aka c/s/s). I started this first heating season with poorly seasoned wood. It was c/s/s in Sept. and I started burning in Nov. I limped through the whole season.
Before you start cutting your firewood, you may want to do some research on the the different units and their firebox dimensions. The Wood Gun is 27" deep so I have all my wood cut to 24" . It is recommended that your wood is as close to the size of the firebox as possible.

The Wood Gun is a beast and works well with out having storage  because of its unique ability to "turn off" the fire and "relight" the fire. However, I plan on getting storage in the very near future.


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## woodsmaster

With storage glycol adds a lot of money to the system and it don't transfer heat as well. Your better off to spend the money on a battery or generator backup IMO. I don't Know the formula to figure the temps you need to run in your floor but maybe someone else will chime in.
There are a few ways to handle your DHW. You can add a side arm to your electric water heater. You can use a flat plate and flow switch for an on demand type set up, you can have a coil in your boiler or storage tank, or you can get an indirect water heater. the boiler water will always be the same water and never touch your DHW.


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## Gasifier

Neil,

I have been reading this post with interest. How much experience do you have heating with wood? Cutting/Splitting/Stacking C/S/S wood? Take note. It is a lot of work and can be dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. I am often concerned for people who are just getting into heating with wood. There is a lot to it. One thing that has got to make you feel good is that you can get a nice boiler with thermal storage tank(s) and the whole system installed for under 20Gs. That is a far cry from that other option you were looking at. But make no mistake about it. Heating with wood is a lot of work if you are going to cut all your own wood. It is a ton of work. And I love it. Love heating with wood. You also have the option of buying your wood cut/split and delivered. Or cut some of your own and buy some c/s and delivered. Sometimes you can get a good deal if you hunt around. Sometimes you can get it for free if you scrounge. Like some guys on this site do. I do a little bit of everything. Looking around for good deals on wood. If I can buy it cheap, real cheap. I will. If I can't, I cut mine. I also have access to free wood. Besides the work of course. Keep asking questions. Lots of good folks in the boiler room. Check out the other forums as well. The wood shed can guide you through a lot of your wood processing, scrounging, c/s/s etc. Hope to see your progress on hearth.com. Welcome.


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## 711mhw

Here's my .02 cents on the wood gun, completely un-scientific and only an impression of what I've read here. The WG is a very, very simple boiler. All of the electrical controls can be had at most any plumbing/heating supply house, or for sure at your local Graingers and I would bet that most boiler/hvac guys carry them on their truck! I would think that all of the electrical parts could be replaced locally for under $500-$800. Now it may not be as absolutly efficient as some of the others, but it is sure in the close running. I do have one and am not running with storage, but I do believe that  cost me some slight efficiencie, but only slight. We operate our WG more like a wood stove, (just keep some wood in it, and stuff it for the overnite) I do fully understand what I am missing without storage and when a tank falls in my lap, by God I'll prolly have storage too! But I don't think the WG really cares. The down side (in my situation) is that the house will get hot in the "shoulder" seasons without storage, and that will "push" us to shutting down earlier than if we had storage. You've had 25 or so excelent responces, keep reading and doing your home work. I encourage you to check out every last boiler there is, but from what I've read about some of the "other" boilers, is that they can get very sophisticated with sensors, computers etc. that are not going to be down the street and on a shelf. Some thing to consider in the middle of Jan. I also might be completely wrong about the availability of parts in a day or 2, I'm thinking that I may have kicked a hornets nest here and hopefully some one with actual experience with these said parts will chime in. Welcome here, your in the right place!


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## denvershepherd

woodsmaster said:


> The wood is more work than geothermal but you will have a lower electric bill with a boiler and hydronic emmiters.
> The 300 huff quoted is right in line with a friend of mine that has geothermal. I heat more space then him and have half the electic bill. The money I save on electric comarably would buy all the wood I use. Of course you still have to move wood and load the boiler but nothing is free.


 



This "load the boiler" statement is one that I'm struggling to understand.  I know it means load wood into the boiler to burn, but how often this has to happen is something that I'm not getting a consistent read on.  This may be due to the fact that there IS no consistent answer   With good "storage" (which I plan to have from reading how important it seems) how often will wood have to be loaded?  Hard question to answer I know considering all the variables that go into it, but assuming for example it averages 10 degrees a day  for a 30 day period.  Would you be loading the wood every 6 hours?  I'm gone to work for around 10 hours a day including travel time so would I be coming home to a cold house without some sort of fail over system like a propane backup?  I plan to have a propane backup regardless for the weekends we are away but in terms of day to day loading I was just curious.

Neil


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## 711mhw

Another thing, I can give the WG the weekly cleaning in 10min. in between burn cycles, things are hot and you need to use care, but I don't need to let it cool down for the complete cleaning. I'm not sure about the other makes, how about you other guys? I guess with storage, you'd have a cold boiler often, nevermind!


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## denvershepherd

infinitymike said:


> Denvershepherd, Welcome to the forum, You are in the right place and are asking great questions.
> You will definitely find a tremendous amount of information here.
> 
> Typically you wouldn't have glycol in the system unless the Boiler or storage tank were outside and at risk of freezing. There are some guys here who have there boilers hooked up to a backup power source such as a battery pack.
> Thats a good question about the separate tanks for heating and domestic water which I don't have a confident answer for. What I do know, is that with or with out gylcol the heated water from the boiler NEVER mixes with the domestic water anyway. The only way for contamination would be for the heating coil to deteriorate allowing for the the fluids to mix. What the possibilities of that happening, I don't know.
> 
> Take heed to the advice given about getting your wood cut/ split/stacked (aka c/s/s). I started this first heating season with poorly seasoned wood. It was c/s/s in Sept. and I started burning in Nov. I limped through the whole season.
> Before you start cutting your firewood, you may want to do some research on the the different units and their firebox dimensions. The Wood Gun is 27" deep so I have all my wood cut to 24" . It is recommended that your wood is as close to the size of the firebox as possible.
> 
> The Wood Gun is a beast and works well with out having storage because of its unique ability to "turn off" the fire and "relight" the fire. However, I plan on getting storage in the very near future.


 

You read my mind Mike.  My next question was going to be be can I start splitting wood before I know what unit I'm going to buy?  It would appear that I should wait till I know the unit size of the firebox.  I'm glad you told me that. I'm trying to read the how to's on preparing wood on this site.  I had no idea how important it was to get the wood prepared for the system to work correctly.  

These battery packs you mentioned are something I didn't think existed and sound like a definite must have.  Do you know how long they last?  Power outage is rare here but if it were to say go out for a 24 hour period do you think they would last that long?

Neil


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## maple1

I think most any good gassifying system with properly sized storage should be able to go with two loads per day on the coldest days. At the other end of the spectrum, when it is not heating season (ie. summer), you could build & burn one fire maybe every 5-7 days (or so, depending on system) that would do all your domestic hot water for that time - saying so long to fossil fuel & electricly heated water in the process.

EDIT: Also, if the system is configured properly for it, it could operate very well for heating during a power outage with gravity/thermosiphoning flow.


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## denvershepherd

Gasifier said:


> Neil,
> 
> I have been reading this post with interest. How much experience do you have heating with wood? Cutting/Splitting/Stacking C/S/S wood? Take note. It is a lot of work and can be dangerous if you do not know what you are doing. I am often concerned for people who are just getting into heating with wood. There is a lot to it. One thing that has got to make you feel good is that you can get a nice boiler with thermal storage tank(s) and the whole system installed for under 20Gs. That is a far cry from that other option you were looking at. But make no mistake about it. Heating with wood is a lot of work if you are going to cut all your own wood. It is a ton of work. And I love it. Love heating with wood. You also have the option of buying your wood cut/split and delivered. Or cut some of your own and buy some c/s and delivered. Sometimes you can get a good deal if you hunt around. Sometimes you can get it for free if you scrounge. Like some guys on this site do. I do a little bit of everything. Looking around for good deals on wood. If I can buy it cheap, real cheap. I will. If I can't, I cut mine. I also have access to free wood. Besides the work of course. Keep asking questions. Lots of good folks in the boiler room. Check out the other forums as well. The wood shed can guide you through a lot of your wood processing, scrounging, c/s/s etc. Hope to see your progress on hearth.com. Welcome.


 
Hi Gasifier,

To answer your question on the experience .....Zero.    

I do have some neighbors that heat with wood and I know from listening to them that it IS a lot of work.  How much work I guess one really doesn't know till they start doing it.  When you mention the word "dangerous" can you point out some specific things that might bite me, other than the chainsaw, that I might not be thinking about?  The wood shed is a great resource by the way... thanks



Neil


----------



## maple1

A tree falling on you wouldn't feel too good.

But I think even if you bought all your firewood already cut & split, you'd still be ahead of the game (depending on local market that is, and assuming nto too extreme).


----------



## denvershepherd

711mhw said:


> Here's my .02 cents on the wood gun, completely un-scientific and only an impression of what I've read here. The WG is a very, very simple boiler. All of the electrical controls can be had at most any plumbing/heating supply house, or for sure at your local Graingers and I would bet that most boiler/hvac guys carry them on their truck! I would think that all of the electrical parts could be replaced locally for under $500-$800. Now it may not be as absolutly efficient as some of the others, but it is sure in the close running. I do have one and am not running with storage, but I do believe that cost me some slight efficiencie, but only slight. We operate our WG more like a wood stove, (just keep some wood in it, and stuff it for the overnite) I do fully understand what I am missing without storage and when a tank falls in my lap, by God I'll prolly have storage too! But I don't think the WG really cares. The down side (in my situation) is that the house will get hot in the "shoulder" seasons without storage, and that will "push" us to shutting down earlier than if we had storage. You've had 25 or so excelent responces, keep reading and doing your home work. I encourage you to check out every last boiler there is, but from what I've read about some of the "other" boilers, is that they can get very sophisticated with sensors, computers etc. that are not going to be down the street and on a shelf. Some thing to consider in the middle of Jan. I also might be completely wrong about the availability of parts in a day or 2, I'm thinking that I may have kicked a hornets nest here and hopefully some one with actual experience with these said parts will chime in. Welcome here, your in the right place!


 
Good points on parts availability.  It's something I'm trying to research on the different units. 

Your statement "*The down side (in my situation) is that the house will get hot in the "shoulder" seasons without storage, and that will "push" us to shutting down earlier than if we had storage.*" has me confused.  I'm assuming "shoulder" means all seasons besides winter?  Why would the house get hot if the thermostat is not calling for heat?  Or do you mean if you are using the unit to heat your DHW they will still radiate heat just from the fact they have a fire burning inside them?

Neil


----------



## R Mannino

Ok, Natural gas isn't available, how about propane?  A high efficiency gas boiler like a mod/con can do very well even if the propane is a little pricey.  It would cost a fraction of geothermal system.  I'm not saying don't do anything with wood, but use it to augment your central heating.


----------



## 711mhw

denvershepherd said:


> Good points on parts availability. It's something I'm trying to research on the different units.
> 
> Your statement "*The down side (in my situation) is that the house will get hot in the "shoulder" seasons without storage, and that will "push" us to shutting down earlier than if we had storage.*" has me confused. I'm assuming "shoulder" means all seasons besides winter? Why would the house get hot if the thermostat is not calling for heat? Or do you mean if you are using the unit to heat your DHW they will still radiate heat just from the fact they have a fire burning inside them?
> 
> Neil


 "shoulder seasons" early and late heating season when the demands are not that of deep winter, or warm days with cold nights.  The WG ( or any boiler) will maintain it's temps even when no zones are calling for heat and the unit itself puts out a lot heat and often enough to fool (satisfy) the thermostats and the radiant stays off. With an well insulated storage tank of 500-1000 gal of pre heated water inside, I would be able to fire every other day or so and presuming that I could insulate the tank much better than the WG is insulated, the heat or all those btu's would remain unused as storage instead of escaping when I don't need them. I don't heat dhw with it in the summer, it would drive me out of the house! And to me, using the WG for summer dhw would be like using a sledge hammer to drive a tack for just the 2 of us. Hope this helps.


----------



## Paver56

Welcome to Hearth.   I do not have the knowledge of most of the memebers here but I can share my personal experience.  We built our house 3 years ago.  We heat about 4000sf-all radiant.  I love the radiant heat.  It is very comfortable.  We put in a HC propane boiler.  We then put in a New Yorker wood/coal boiler which I was not happy with.  This past year, after finding Hearth, I decided to install a gassifier.  I also have an unlimited supply of wood so that is what made me choose wood over coal.  I looked at several different boilers including effecta and varmabaronen but in the end I decided to go with a Froling.  I also install 1500 gallons of unpressurized storage with 4 heat exchangers.  3 are for the boiler and heating system and the 4th is for DHW. 
It has been about 2 months since I got it up and running.  I have been amazed as the efficiency and ease of operation.  It has been mild here in PA.  When it was in the 20's and 30's, I was burning the Froling every 24-36 hrs.  Last week, using on DHW I went a full week between burns.  We have 3 kids and my wife has a hair salon in our home. 
We still have the propane boiler for a backup but I have not burned it since the Froling went on line.  The Froling along with some of the other boilers mentioned use a Lambda sensor.  I personally would recommend spending the money for this feature. It only takes about 5 minutes to load the boiler, light it, and then let it get up and burning and then I walk away and go about my day.  Having a boiler that I do not have to tend to throughout the burn is priceless.
Good luck with your decision!


----------



## hobbyheater

[quote="

Your statement "*The down side (in my situation) is that the house will get hot in the "shoulder" seasons without storage, and that will "push" us to shutting down earlier than if we had storage.*" has me confused. I'm assuming "shoulder" means all seasons besides winter? Why would the house get hot if the thermostat is not calling for heat? Or do you mean if you are using the unit to heat your DHW they will still radiate heat just from the fact they have a fire burning inside them?

Neil[/quote]

We have a well insulated 1,000 gallon storage tank , and in the summer months  can go as many as 14 days between firings, the room that the boiler and storage are located is below grade  and towards  day 14 that room can get down  45 - 50 degrees . Our boiler is old and uninsulated and can  put temperatures in the boiler room up to 110 when firing , the newer boilers that I have seen are well insulated and put very little heat into the room.


----------



## denvershepherd

R Mannino said:


> Ok, Natural gas isn't available, how about propane? A high efficiency gas boiler like a mod/con can do very well even if the propane is a little pricey. It would cost a fraction of geothermal system. I'm not saying don't do anything with wood, but use it to augment your central heating.


 

I haven't done my research on the propane side of things yet but I plan to have a propane system in place that will automatically take over (hope this is possible)  if the storage water is not hot enough and I've not loaded wood into the boiler... ie. if I've gone away for a few days.


----------



## dogwood

Neil, you mentioned the size of that utility room would not be able to fit both a Garn and storage. The Garn unit is so big because it is its own storage and boiler in one. Simplifies the plumbing if nothing else. The Garn takes big hunks of wood too. I have a Tarm Solo Innova, as the Garn was too pricey and at the time I was unable to obtain a Froling. Using your auto analogy, the Froling is like a Mercedes (It's made in Austria, close to Gernany) and the Garn might be a HumVee (an expensive, all purpose vehicle). The Rolls Royce might be one of the Veissman models, still only available in Europe. Frolings (like Effectas, Vigas and others maybe) have Lambda devices which regulate oxygen intake automatically. It is to be easy to use for that and various other reasons. Call Chris Hoskins (1.800.782.9927) up at Tarm Biomass. He could explain the Frolings features much better than I. Many people on this site do drool over them. Their upside and downside both are their computerized sophistication. Use the search function on this site to get some info on them and the Garns, as well as all the other brands (Just thought of another brand, Varmebaronen). All have their up sides, be it cost, design, ease of use and installation, quality of build and manufacture, induced draft, ease of maintenance, longevity, warranty.

You also need to check for UL listings if required by your local Building Department. I know my Tarm Solo Innova, Frolings, Wood Guns, and Econoburns have that listing, which I had to have to do my installation, both to satisfy the Building Dept. and my insurance company. If needed it does narrow your choices some.

Mike


----------



## denvershepherd

Paver56 said:


> Welcome to Hearth. I do not have the knowledge of most of the memebers here but I can share my personal experience. We built our house 3 years ago. We heat about 4000sf-all radiant. I love the radiant heat. It is very comfortable. We put in a HC propane boiler. We then put in a New Yorker wood/coal boiler which I was not happy with. This past year, after finding Hearth, I decided to install a gassifier. I also have an unlimited supply of wood so that is what made me choose wood over coal. I looked at several different boilers including effecta and varmabaronen but in the end I decided to go with a Froling. I also install 1500 gallons of unpressurized storage with 4 heat exchangers. 3 are for the boiler and heating system and the 4th is for DHW.
> It has been about 2 months since I got it up and running. I have been amazed as the efficiency and ease of operation. It has been mild here in PA. When it was in the 20's and 30's, I was burning the Froling every 24-36 hrs. Last week, using on DHW I went a full week between burns. We have 3 kids and my wife has a hair salon in our home.
> We still have the propane boiler for a backup but I have not burned it since the Froling went on line. The Froling along with some of the other boilers mentioned use a Lambda sensor. I personally would recommend spending the money for this feature. It only takes about 5 minutes to load the boiler, light it, and then let it get up and burning and then I walk away and go about my day. Having a boiler that I do not have to tend to throughout the burn is priceless.
> Good luck with your decision!


 
Thanks Paver.  I'll do some research on the Froling.  What is the purpose of this Lambda sensor you mentioned?  I noticed you mentioned "unpressurized" on your storage unit.  What is the purpose of having  a pressurized vs unpressurized storage tank?

Neil


----------



## denvershepherd

dogwood said:


> Neil, you mentioned the size of that utility room would not be able to fit both a Garn and storage. The Garn unit is so big because it is its own storage and boiler in one. Simplifies the plumbing if nothing else. The Garn takes big hunks of wood too. I have a Tarm Solo Innova, as the Garn was too pricey and at the time I was unable to obtain a Froling. Using your auto analogy, the Froling is like a Mercedes (It's made in Austria, close to Gernany) and the Garn might be a HumVee (an expensive, all purpose vehicle). The Rolls Royce might be one of the Veissman models, still only available in Europe. Frolings (like Effectas, Vigas and others maybe) have Lambda devices which regulate oxygen intake automatically. It is to be easy to use for that and various other reasons. Call Chris Hoskins (1.800.782.9927) up at Tarm Biomass. He could explain the Frolings features much better than I. Many people on this site do drool over them. Their upside and downside both are their computerized sophistication. Use the search function on this site to get some info on them and the Garns, as well as all the other brands (Just thought of another brand, Varmebaronen). All have their up sides, be it cost, design, ease of use and installation, quality of build and manufacture, induced draft, ease of maintenance, longevity, warranty.
> 
> You also need to check for UL listings if required by your local Building Department. I know my Tarm Solo Innova, Frolings, Wood Guns, and Econoburns have that listing, which I had to have to do my installation, both to satisfy the Building Dept. and my insurance company. If needed it does narrow your choices some.
> 
> Mike


 

Love your analogies comparing the different boilers.  I'm putting together spread sheet to compare the pros and cons of the different products to help me with my decision.  It's starting to get overwhelming.  lol.  I never even thought about the insurance side of things.  Is it possible that certain wood boilers can cause my insurance company not to insure my home?


----------



## denvershepherd

Paver56 said:


> Welcome to Hearth. I do not have the knowledge of most of the memebers here but I can share my personal experience. We built our house 3 years ago. We heat about 4000sf-all radiant. I love the radiant heat. It is very comfortable. We put in a HC propane boiler. We then put in a New Yorker wood/coal boiler which I was not happy with. This past year, after finding Hearth, I decided to install a gassifier. I also have an unlimited supply of wood so that is what made me choose wood over coal. I looked at several different boilers including effecta and varmabaronen but in the end I decided to go with a Froling. I also install 1500 gallons of unpressurized storage with 4 heat exchangers. 3 are for the boiler and heating system and the 4th is for DHW.
> It has been about 2 months since I got it up and running. I have been amazed as the efficiency and ease of operation. It has been mild here in PA. When it was in the 20's and 30's, I was burning the Froling every 24-36 hrs. Last week, using on DHW I went a full week between burns. We have 3 kids and my wife has a hair salon in our home.
> We still have the propane boiler for a backup but I have not burned it since the Froling went on line. The Froling along with some of the other boilers mentioned use a Lambda sensor. I personally would recommend spending the money for this feature. It only takes about 5 minutes to load the boiler, light it, and then let it get up and burning and then I walk away and go about my day. Having a boiler that I do not have to tend to throughout the burn is priceless.
> Good luck with your decision!


 
The Froling looks like a beautiful unit Paver.  Can I ask what model you purchased and what the age of your home is?  Anything you don't like about it?   I don't know if it's appropriate to ask what you paid for the Froling, but what did you pay for your unit?   How does that cleaning unit they have built in work for you?

Neil


----------



## Paver56

The lambda sensor basically monitors your exhaust gas and automatically controls your air intake.  Without it you have to manually adjust the primary and secondary air dampers.  If that does not make sense, I am sure someone on here can explain it better that I can. 
A lambda controlled boiler is constantly adjusting the dampers to maintain maximum efficiency.
My 1500 gallon UP tank is basically an 8' round by about 60" high tank of water.  My heat exchangers are copper coils.  The water in the tank is simply used as a battery.   The water in my tank never enters the system.  My boiler heats the tank thru the heat exchangers.  When my house is calling for heat, it uses the same heat exchangers to draw heat from the tank.  My DHW is heated by running water from my well, thru the HE, and out my faucets. 
I was going to go with 1000 gal of pressurized storage using used propane tanks but was forced to go with unpressurized because of my situation.  Our home is considered a commercial building here in PA so I was told I couldn't use the propane tanks. 
I am very happy so far.  Some things to consider are the cost-these tanks are very expensive, unless you make your own.  Also, you cannot heat the tanks as hot as you can with a propane tank.


----------



## jebatty

Mercedes, HumVee and Rolls ... hmmm. The difficulty with metaphors is that I would not want to own any of these, but I would (almost) drool over some of the boilers you mentioned. I would, however, trade any of those ego machines for an ego boiler and start saving $$$ rather than spending it.


----------



## heaterman

I would recommend you start your search with the people listed below. They can give you some straight advice about what will work, and what won't work for your house and system along with accurate information on wood fired equipment and heat storage. I'm sure they can handle a heat loss for your house (which is absolutely the first place to start) as well as looking at the whole picture rather than just what kind of boiler to install.
They may be of some additional help on geothermal but I think you are going to be looking at BIG $$$$ because of the need for vertical boring in your area.

Jim Heil @
Energy Delivery Systems,LLC
1508 Courtyard Heights
Colorado Springs, Colorado 80906
719-375-0328 office
719-330-0400 cell
energydeliverysystems@gmail.com


----------



## denvershepherd

heaterman said:


> I would recommend you start your search with the people listed below. They can give you some straight advice about what will work, and what won't work for your house and system along with accurate information on wood fired equipment and heat storage. I'm sure they can handle a heat loss for your house (which is absolutely the first place to start) as well as looking at the whole picture rather than just what kind of boiler to install.
> They may be of some additional help on geothermal but I think you are going to be looking at BIG $$$$ because of the need for vertical boring in your area.
> 
> Jim Heil @
> Energy Delivery Systems,LLC
> 1508 Courtyard Heights
> Colorado Springs, Colorado 80906
> 719-375-0328 office
> 719-330-0400 cell
> energydeliverysystems@gmail.com[/quot
> 
> Thanks heaterman.  It nice to get a reference for someone "local".  They are about an hour and fifteen minutes away but they might be willing to take on the job.  Have you or someone you know had work done by them?
> 
> Neil


----------



## huffdawg

jebatty said:


> Mercedes, HumVee and Rolls ... hmmm. The difficulty with metaphors is that I would not want to own any of these, but I would (almost) drool over some of the boilers you mentioned. I would, however, trade any of those ego machines for an ego boiler and start saving $$$ rather than spending it.


 
Those ego machines  don't  pack much wood either


----------



## heaterman

Jim Heil and Bruce Randall are the principals at that business and what you are contemplating is their stock and trade. They don't shortcut anything and would get you set up with a system that is right for you and right for your house.
They have not done any work for me (I'm in the same biz myself) but I'm sure they can provide references in the Colorado area. I know both of them through business relationship.


----------



## denvershepherd

heaterman said:


> Jim Heil and Bruce Randall are the principals at that business and what you are contemplating is their stock and trade. They don't shortcut anything and would get you set up with a system that is right for you and right for your house.
> They have not done any work for me (I'm in the same biz myself) but I'm sure they can provide references in the Colorado area. I know both of them through business relationship.



Great thanks.  I emailed Jim about an hour ago.  I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## kopeck

denvershepherd said:


> The Froling looks like a beautiful unit Paver. Can I ask what model you purchased and what the age of your home is? Anything you don't like about it? I don't know if it's appropriate to ask what you paid for the Froling, but what did you pay for your unit?  How does that cleaning unit they have built in work for you?
> 
> Neil


 
I can't answer for the OP but I also have the Solo Innova and like it a lot.  To me it sits right in the middle, it's not as fancy as the Froling, you have to set the primary/secondary air by hand but my experience has been once you get it set for your wood you are all set and don't have to mess with it.  The Solo Innova is however a bit more advanced then a boiler like the EKO or similar products.  It's firebox design is like that of the Froling so you can open the door and not have to worry about smoke rolling out.  There's also no bypass to mess with, if there's a fire going and the fan is running just open the door and you are good to go, even if the fan cycles off during a burn just push the door button and it will start the fan for a couple of minutes so you can do what you need to do.  Nothing against the EKOs or Econoburns of the world, there seems to be a lot of happy folks with them I went with the Tarm because it gave me a simple design but with some really nice features that others didn't offer.

Garns are sort of on their own IMHO.  If you have the space you can't argue with the simplicity of the design.

I also looked at a Vigas, they looked like nice units too.  In the end Tarm had the name so that's what I went with.  That and the local distributor and the importer were very good to deal with.

Oh and to answer a question a couple of pages back...Tarm Biomass is the company that imports Tarm HS & Froling boilers.  They're separate companies, Tarm Biomass's name does make it a little confusing though.

What's the availability of wood pellets in your area? If your not so sure about dealing with wood, pellets are a good alternative.  Check out Tarm Biomass's Blog (http://blog.woodboilers.com/) they have some nice examples of some of their Frolings both in home and commercial use.  Those units are just a step below oil/gas as far as easy of use.

K


----------



## surviverguy

Can you do any insulation upgrades to reduce your heat losses? Just something else to consider in the equation...(use less wood and have more stable temperatures)
In addition to the boiler, a large woodstove on the main floor with those high ceilings would help a lot.
I wouldn't buy propane anything...you have electric hot water and baseboards which could be used when you go out of town (on low).
There are 2,000 btu's per ton (heatpump) ...so your geothermal setup would have been 6 1/2 tons. Geothermal design usualy has em runnin 24/7 at design temp (lowest temps in winter).
    I second the idea to read John Siegenthaler's book "Hydronic heating for residential and light commercial buildings"...and also check out his article on the web "from wood to water" part 1 and part 2.
I'd also recommend getting lots of wood (css) now while the gettin' is good..18" logs would fit in any large woodburner and are you're gonna have at least one...
One advantage to radiant floors is that they make use of the lowest temperature water which makes them the most efficient. Radiant floors provide the greatest confort (assuming proper design). The downside to radiant floors is their cost.


----------



## denvershepherd

kopeck said:


> I can't answer for the OP but I also have the Solo Innova and like it a lot. To me it sits right in the middle, it's not as fancy as the Froling, you have to set the primary/secondary air by hand but my experience has been once you get it set for your wood you are all set and don't have to mess with it. The Solo Innova is however a bit more advanced then a boiler like the EKO or similar products. It's firebox design is like that of the Froling so you can open the door and not have to worry about smoke rolling out. There's also no bypass to mess with, if there's a fire going and the fan is running just open the door and you are good to go, even if the fan cycles off during a burn just push the door button and it will start the fan for a couple of minutes so you can do what you need to do. Nothing against the EKOs or Econoburns of the world, there seems to be a lot of happy folks with them I went with the Tarm because it gave me a simple design but with some really nice features that others didn't offer.
> 
> Garns are sort of on their own IMHO. If you have the space you can't argue with the simplicity of the design.
> 
> I also looked at a Vigas, they looked like nice units too. In the end Tarm had the name so that's what I went with. That and the local distributor and the importer were very good to deal with.
> 
> Oh and to answer a question a couple of pages back...Tarm Biomass is the company that imports Tarm HS & Froling boilers. They're separate companies, Tarm Biomass's name does make it a little confusing though.
> 
> What's the availability of wood pellets in your area? If your not so sure about dealing with wood, pellets are a good alternative. Check out Tarm Biomass's Blog (http://blog.woodboilers.com/) they have some nice examples of some of their Frolings both in home and commercial use. Those units are just a step below oil/gas as far as easy of use.
> 
> K


 
Thanks for clearing that up about Tarm vs Tarm Biomass.  I was a little confused about that.  I talked to a company that Heaterman had suggested today and I really liked them.  They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level.  I think it may be Tarm or Garn at this point.  But that may change tomorrow.  I'm having the company come out to do a complete heat loss calc on my home to see exactly what I need. 

Neil


----------



## Paver56

Denvershepherd,
My house is 3 years old.  We used an 1" to 1.5" of spray foam with R13 on top of that.  I went with the Froling 40/50.  I have it on the 50 setting.
The boiler came with a lot of the valves  needed for installation, including the termover blending valve.  I believe we paid a little over 11k for it.
So far the only thing I do not like about it, and this is minor, is that all of the temperature displays are in celcius.  I just downloaded an ap for my phone to convert to F. 
I have been cleaning it once a week.  It comes with a small ash pan and tools which make the cleaning very easy.  It usually only takes between 5 to 10 minutes to clean it.  I usually get all of the weeks ashes in the pan that comes with it.  
I should mention that one of the nicest features on the Froling is the middle door which is used to light the fire. 
Another thing that the unit came with was a control box which I believe Tarm makes.  It can be set to wood only, backup only, or backup on.  It is an easy way to choose which way you want to heat your house.  Right now, I am home everyday and have it set on wood only.  If we go away I can set it so my HC propane boiler kicks on when my tank temp gets low.  If I choose to just heat my DHW with propane in the summer, I can set it to backup only. 
Hope this info helps.   Good luck on your decision.


----------



## Gasifier

Thanks for clearing that up about Tarm vs Tarm Biomass. I was a little confused about that. I talked to a company that Heaterman had suggested today and I really liked them. They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level. I think it may be Tarm or Garn at this point. But that may change tomorrow. I'm having the company come out to do a complete heat loss calc on my home to see exactly what I need.

Neil,

What do you mean when you say, "They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level? You mean the first level of your garage?


----------



## denvershepherd

Gasifier said:


> Thanks for clearing that up about Tarm vs Tarm Biomass. I was a little confused about that. I talked to a company that Heaterman had suggested today and I really liked them. They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level. I think it may be Tarm or Garn at this point. But that may change tomorrow. I'm having the company come out to do a complete heat loss calc on my home to see exactly what I need.
> 
> Neil,
> 
> What do you mean when you say, "They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level? You mean the first level of your garage?


 

Hi,

I have a utility room down on the first level which is attached to a large wreck room.  I meant that I would have to expand the utility room to hold the garn/wood etc.... The garn can go right in your house correct?

Neil


----------



## kopeck

denvershepherd said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a utility room down on the first level which is attached to a large wreck room. I meant that I would have to expand the utility room to hold the garn/wood etc.... The garn can go right in your house correct?
> 
> Neil


 
As long as you can get it in there and you have enough head room then yeah, well that and if your floor can support it (we're talking a cement pad right?).

K


----------



## denvershepherd

kopeck said:


> As long as you can get it in there and you have enough head room then yeah, well that and if your floor can support it (we're talking a cement pad right?).
> 
> K


 

Yes. the whole wreck room is on a concrete slab.  Do I need to put steel underneath of it if I decide to get the Garn?

Neil


----------



## gtjp

denvershepherd said:


> Hello,
> 
> Just got my second estimate back for a geothermal instal and it was over a 100K as well.
> 
> WOW!
> why insane quotes
> did I see for 3000 sq ft home?
> 
> Did any suggest a 3-ton system with a 5-ton loop for covering ALL cooling and a couple air zones and ALL 100% INSTANT HotWater Heating by temp programming? or a 3,1.2ton 3-staging HW Prioritym that can ALSO heat In-Floor and be backed up by the smallest wood burner...?
> (pictorials: geopros.org)
> 
> Is the closed loop drilling 100/ft there?
> 
> In very hard to use parts of Ohio:
> drilling and pumps and gt system for
> 
> www.Hydro-Temp.com Priority HW all bells, 3 staging, 75% less costly than oil, 60% less than straight electric, and 40-45% less than even www.IBCboiler,com (20-115 variable 20-115k btuh)...
> 
> @ 4-ton for 3000 sq ft forced air average insulated: HIGHEST retrofitting @ ~ 24,000 less 30% break tax credit and 600 uty rebate... ~ nets out after saving 1600 (-1900 usually, all HW and HVAC ~ 8000 kwh/ annually...
> 
> first year at under ~ $ 14,000 with substantially equal operation in sealed ducting and proper return air system, ~ 7 years ROI at worst...
> 
> 100,ooo was for 4 units,12000 sqft/// half new ducting and radiant floor 3100 sqft.
> 2009:
> on open well of 135 gpm (point.2 PPM iron...)
> using ~ 24- 28 gpm at peak -10 below zero, 16 gpm peak summer--- watering the lawn, keeping a pool of fresh water flow at 88 degrees for fun in the summer usage!
> 
> radiant costs contractors here now ~ $11/sqft if 1000 sqft hooked to some source with pumps and a controller, or over 1000 sqft for only a little less to ~ 4000 sqft, comes down a bit.
> It is recommended only in floors above basement, as forced-air ceiling registers can be directed straight down over slab flooring/ basements/ well insulated, to "create" a floor-radiant warm feet effect, substantially acceptable to ALL WHO LET ME adjust the registers.
> 
> -since 1986, found registers needed "bending" in ceilings, and cooling takes care of itself...


----------



## gtjp

surviverguy said:


> Can you do any insulation upgrades to reduce your heat losses? Just something else to consider in the equation...(use less wood and have more stable temperatures)
> In addition to the boiler, a large woodstove on the main floor with those high ceilings would help a lot.
> I wouldn't buy propane anything...you have electric hot water and baseboards which could be used when you go out of town (on low).
> There are 2,000 btu's per ton (heatpump) .


 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hi from a GT-Nut 1980--- to date:

PLEASE FIND 12000 BTUHS PER TON IF YOU HAVE A 44-DEGREE ENTERING FLUID IN A GROUND LOOP OVER 3GPM PER TON ACTUAL COMPRESSOR TONS INSIDE , SAY A WATER-WATER RADIANT-IN-FLOOR HEAT EXCHANGER, R410a.

Then
see calculator sheet notes www.geopros.org (click that rough -built logo)

find a 3000 sq ft are in -20-deg winters need only size for ! 80% of a TRUE-get through a night or 3, load peak for heating...
setting GT Heat Pumps to run 24/7 at 74-deg, without supplemental heating at 80% sized, results in easily staying above 68 through a few coldest nights using the very high mass whole-house as a "flywheel", I believe you find others successfully doing.


4400 sq ft homes , UNINSULATED SLAB BASEMENT REC ROOM over thick carpet and primo pad ONLY... with 6" stud wet-cellulose spray, r- 50 vaulted and attic cellulose...
2 story,
N-Ohio 6600 deg day area (-12-17 below frequently 1-3 nights)
uses only 64.000 btuh GT on a 6-ton loop, 34-deg entering; and does not turn on a strip heater until a couple weeks in sub- 7 to 8 below weather, ( ~ 600 sq ft glass). ( ~ 12000 kwh/year - HVAC and Hot Water On-Demand "instant" by total compressor Priority)


----------



## woodsmaster

denvershepherd said:


> Yes. the whole wreck room is on a concrete slab. Do I need to put steel underneath of it if I decide to get the Garn?
> 
> Neil


 No


----------



## maple1

gtjp: I cannot understand you.


----------



## denvershepherd

woodsmaster said:


> I would recomend panel rads or low temp baseboard since you already have baseboard. Lots of good gassers our there. I'd deffinitly recomend storage. It makes the boiler a lot easier to use and clean. I looked into geo before I
> bought My boiler. They wanted 30,000 to do just my house. I spenthalf that and heat the house and shop. I
> like my biomass a lot. The wood gun seems to be a great boiler to. Definitly take a look at the garn if you have room for it. They tend to be a little more money but are very easy to use. the frolling is a top of the line gasse made by tarm. The Effecta is another cutting edge boiler That like the frolling and Garn tend to cost a little more than most
> of the other boilers. Good luck. You have your research cut out for you.


 

Hi Woodmaster,

I'm trying to price out storage with my system as I'm leaning back toward the Froling FHG-L due to the HUGE size of the Garn.  Is there a good place to buy storage and what specifically should I look for in the tank if I'm wanting to pair it up with the Froling?

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## Paver56

Denvershepherd,
One thing I would recommend is if you go with the Froling, put in plenty of storage.  Mine has no problem with the 1500 gal of storage.  I would not want less.  More storage=more time between fires!


----------



## woodsmaster

I'm notsure were to get tanks in your area. Try calling salvage yards. Most propane dealers won't sell you tanks but if you call them they may be able to tell you who will.One thing to decide is if you will need a coil in the tank for dhw
or solar. If so that can be added to most any tank by a professional welder. An indirect tank is also a good option for dhw and no need for the coil.
Stainless milk tanks are also an option if you have old dairys around. They are insulated -usually cost more. There is a salvage yard around here with all kinds of tanks but I don't Know what shipping would cost.


----------



## skfire

> I'm trying to price out storage with my system as I'm leaning back toward the Froling FHG-L due to the HUGE size of the Garn. Is there a good place to buy storage and what specifically should I look for in the tank if I'm wanting to pair it up with the Froling?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


 
*+1 on the Froling.*
A good balance between heat-load, type of emitter temperature requirement(usable range of BTUs) and storage is advisable.
Of course the Froling can easily handle 1500gallons, but the amount of "food" is also a concern.
@ 1500 gallons you may need 2 loads back to back to satisfy tanks and concurrent houseload, depending on the calls.
Lots of factors involved.
From my limited experience, 800 gallons get me through with 1-2 fires a day(not full firebox load)depending on outside temps.

Of course space considerations are also in the mix.

*+1 Woodmaster on the tanks.*
Also check used air tanks(verticals if you have the headroom). New air tanks run cheaper than new water or new propane and they are still ASME.

Good luck.

Scott


----------



## kopeck

Don't forget unpressurized storage like American Solartechnics. Tom is a member on here and if you don't like lifting heavy things and then finding and then dealing with welding the thing up so you can use it.

These tanks are nice since they give you lots of options later one. Adding a DHW coil or even a solar exchanger is pretty straight forward. Tom's a good guy to work with, I've had a condensation issue with my tank and he's been over to try and get it resolved.

K


----------



## denvershepherd

Paver56 said:


> Denvershepherd,
> One thing I would recommend is if you go with the Froling, put in plenty of storage. Mine has no problem with the 1500 gal of storage. I would not want less. More storage=more time between fires!


 

Can you tell me what type of storage you have Paver?  Brand, pressure vs non pressure, where you got it etc...

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## denvershepherd

skfire said:


> *+1 on the Froling.*
> A good balance between heat-load, type of emitter temperature requirement(usable range of BTUs) and storage is advisable.
> Of course the Froling can easily handle 1500gallons, but the amount of "food" is also a concern.
> @ 1500 gallons you may need 2 loads back to back to satisfy tanks and concurrent houseload, depending on the calls.
> Lots of factors involved.
> From my limited experience, 800 gallons get me through with 1-2 fires a day(not full firebox load)depending on outside temps.
> 
> Of course space considerations are also in the mix.
> 
> *+1 Woodmaster on the tanks.*
> Also check used air tanks(verticals if you have the headroom). New air tanks run cheaper than new water or new propane and they are still ASME.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Scott


 

I see you have a* Buderus LP back up *.  Does it switch automatically over to this when the boiler is not loaded and the hot water in the storage runs out?  Do you need a device that connects the two?

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## bro-tek

skfire said:


> *+1 on the Froling.*
> A good balance between heat-load, type of emitter temperature requirement(usable range of BTUs) and storage is advisable.
> Of course the Froling can easily handle 1500gallons, but the amount of "food" is also a concern.
> @ 1500 gallons you may need 2 loads back to back to satisfy tanks and concurrent houseload, depending on the calls.
> Lots of factors involved.
> From my limited experience, 800 gallons get me through with 1-2 fires a day(not full firebox load)depending on outside temps.
> 
> Of course space considerations are also in the mix.
> 
> *+1 Woodmaster on the tanks.*
> Also check used air tanks(verticals if you have the headroom). New air tanks run cheaper than new water or new propane and they are still ASME.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Scott


 +1 on the Froling, 2x500 gal propane tank standing up is a good setup, even better would be 3x500.


----------



## denvershepherd

bro-tek said:


> +1 on the Froling, 2x500 gal propane tank standing up is a good setup, even better would be 3x500.


 

Cool Bro-Tek.  What type of storage do you have?

p.s.  I'm originally from NB but haven't live there for almost 15 years.


----------



## willworkforwood

You're making good progress dialing in a quality boiler with storage, but have you done anything on the firewood side of this yet?


----------



## skfire

denvershepherd said:


> I see you have a* Buderus LP back up *. Does it switch automatically over to this when the boiler is not loaded and the hot water in the storage runs out? Do you need a device that connects the two?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


 
Yes, Tarm Biomass provides a "switch box" and aquastats,  choice of setting to "wood only", "back up" or auto.
The rest is the way you pipe and wire your system & controller.

There are other way than controlling it, but why rediscover the wheel, their set up is very well designed.

Scott


----------



## denvershepherd

willworkforwood said:


> You're making good progress dialing in a quality boiler with storage, but have you done anything on the firewood side of this yet?



My neighbour who has tons of seasoned wood just dropped 3 cord off to get me started.  He also said he's got 5 or 6 fallen trees that I'm welcome to.  Of course I'll have to do the work on those.


----------



## denvershepherd

skfire said:


> Yes, Tarm Biomass provides a "switch box" and aquastats,  choice of setting to "wood only", "back up" or auto.
> The rest is the way you pipe and wire your system & controller.
> 
> There are other way than controlling it, but why rediscover the wheel, their set up is very well designed.
> 
> Scott



Thanks.  I'll talk to the Tarm people about it.

Neil


----------



## bro-tek

denvershepherd said:


> Cool Bro-Tek. What type of storage do you have?
> 
> p.s. I'm originally from NB but haven't live there for almost 15 years.


 
It may be time for you to plan trip up, here a link to the install  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/froling-for-xmas-happy-camper-with-pics.60877/#post-757829


----------



## heaterman

I'm curious as to what the difference is between finding space for a Garn vs 2 or 3 500 gallon tanks actually is.

Why not save the complexity and use a single unit that incorporates burner, heat exchanger and storage in an all in one package?

As for your question about tanks, I would have no idea where you could get them locally let alone who to have fab them up and connect.

My personal rule of thumb for tank sizing, based on nothing more than experience is pretty simple. I stick by a ratio that is basically for every 30,000but of heat loss connect 500 gallons of storage. The actual firing rate of the boiler matters little (within reason) as long as it is sufficient to sustain peak load + dumping a little into the storage while burning. Others may disagree and that is fine. My suggestion is based on average situations and is of course subject to the vagaries of any given application.

Your switching control between wood/LP can be nothing more than a single pole, double throw switch/aquastat that energizes one system or the other based on water temperature.


----------



## willworkforwood

denvershepherd said:


> My neighbour who has tons of seasoned wood just dropped 3 cord off to get me started. He also said he's got 5 or 6 fallen trees that I'm welcome to. Of course I'll have to do the work on those.


3 free cord is a nice way to begin, but IMO you need to get into processing your own wood, before moving forward with any boiler purchases. As we've already said, firewood is a lot of work, and will require your time. Never having done this before, you can't understand what that means until you actually do the work yourself. There's cutting, splitting, hauling, and stacking (later unstacking and hauling again when burned). Someone I work with was planning to install a wood furnace, and decided to see what the firewood processing was all about, prior to buying a unit. He determined (correctly) that there was just not enough time at that point in his life (small child, etc.) to allow for what firewood would require. So, you need to know in advance that you will be ok with processing enough firewood every year going forward from now on. Cut/split/stack some wood, calculate the the volume you cut, extrapolate to what you will need (rough range 8-12 cord of pine), and then give yourself a 20% bonus because you will get more efficient in your methods later on. After doing this, you'll hopefully still feel the same about bringing in a wood boiler.  If your fall-back is buying wood, and you're financially ok with that, then great - you're good to go.


----------



## maple1

heaterman said:


> I'm curious as to what the difference is between finding space for a Garn vs 2 or 3 500 gallon tanks actually is.
> 
> Why not save the complexity and use a single unit that incorporates burner, heat exchanger and storage in an all in one package?


 
Seems pretty simple to me - the Garn is all one big unit that needs a big door & lots of room & lots of muscle & one big landing space. Separate boiler & storage can be compartmentalized and moved easier into spaces they will fit. It is a physical impossibility for a Garn to fit my space, but a smaller boiler & the right sized tanks will fit into the 2 or 3 spaces I do have.


----------



## denvershepherd

maple1 said:


> Seems pretty simple to me - the Garn is all one big unit that needs a big door & lots of room & lots of muscle & one big landing space. Separate boiler & storage can be compartmentalized and moved easier into spaces they will fit. It is a physical impossibility for a Garn to fit my space, but a smaller boiler & the right sized tanks will fit into the 2 or 3 spaces I do have.


 
Yup. It just wouldn't fit.  It would come through the front door but would never make it down the stairs to the wreck room.  Heaterman's point makes all the sense in the world though because I've been pricing out 1500 gallons of storage and the Garn financially would be the logical choice but it just doesn't fit.  Wish it did because storage is going to end up costing more than the unit. 

Neil


----------



## Paver56

Denvershepherd,
I have a 1500 gal unpressurized tank made by STSS.  They are located in Mechanicsburg, PA-their website is stsscoinc@comcast.net
If you look that up it will give you an idea of what this type of tank looks like.  Mine is 8' in diameter-you need plenty of space.  I bought mine from a local HVAC co that bought it for a solar project and then never used it.  I was able to buy it around 60% off.
Others can correct me if I am wrong but I think Tarm can make a square tank to a size of that suites your situation.  I am told they are a lot easier to assemble and move around than the style tank that I have.  The dealer I bought my Froling from also told me that they are using a liner that is better than the one on my tank.  It can handle higher temps and is supposed to last longer before replacement.
I have found that I can raise the temperature in my tank about 10 degrees per hour when it is running wide open.  I just finished hooking up a temperature gauge for the top and bottom of  my tank that will allow me to see the temp in F.  I am excited-I put the gauge in my kitchen so I can monitor my tank without having to go down to the basement. 
I should be able to get a better idea of how much time is takes to raise the temps in the tank now that I can see the temps in F
If I let that tank get down to 120 or so I usually have been filling the boiler and then adding about another half of a load to get it up to 170-175.
I would rather have to add some wood to a burn and get longer in between fires-that is why I went with the 1500 gal-and that I was able to get it so cheap.


----------



## maple1

denvershepherd said:


> Yup. It just wouldn't fit. It would come through the front door but would never make it down the stairs to the wreck room. Heaterman's point makes all the sense in the world though because I've been pricing out 1500 gallons of storage and the Garn financially would be the logical choice but it just doesn't fit. Wish it did because storage is going to end up costing more than the unit.
> 
> Neil


 
I thought that also at the beginning of my searching. Stumbling across the right salvage yard can make all the difference in the world - storage should now be the least of my outlays.


----------



## Gasifier

denvershepherd said:


> Yup. It just wouldn't fit. It would come through the front door but would never make it down the stairs to the wreck room. Heaterman's point makes all the sense in the world though because I've been pricing out 1500 gallons of storage and the Garn financially would be the logical choice but it just doesn't fit. Wish it did because storage is going to end up costing more than the unit.  Neil


 
How tall are the ceilings in the room you want to put your storage? How big is the room you are puttin boiler and storage in? How much room do you have?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROY-E-HANSO...399?pt=BI_Air_Compressors&hash=item3f156978d7

Just one example. You would be surprised what you can find if you really want to look for it. Here is the one I found that fit my needs. 400 gallon air reciever tank.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-in-the-tank-pictures-i.74168/#post-938094

If you search the web for air reciever tank, look around at places that sell used equipment, etc. Some of the companies will strap it to a pallet for you and ship it reasonably. Lot cheaper than buying a new tank. You can find an ASME rated tank with the stamp and spend much less. Not have any of the work that comes with used propane tanks. Sometimes the propane tanks can be found very cheaply though. Lots of options out there. Take your time. Don't make quick decisions.

If you haven't started on your wood yet and you are positive you are going with a wood gassification boiler, you may want to buy some wood now to get it started on the seasoning process now. If you can afford to spend the money, no shame in buying some wood that is already cut and split and delivered to your home. Especially with now experience processing wood. It is really nice to just have to stack it. Some guys on hearth.com do that exclusively.


----------



## denvershepherd

willworkforwood said:


> 3 free cord is a nice way to begin, but IMO you need to get into processing your own wood, before moving forward with any boiler purchases. As we've already said, firewood is a lot of work, and will require your time. Never having done this before, you can't understand what that means until you actually do the work yourself. There's cutting, splitting, hauling, and stacking (later unstacking and hauling again when burned). Someone I work with was planning to install a wood furnace, and decided to see what the firewood processing was all about, prior to buying a unit. He determined (correctly) that there was just not enough time at that point in his life (small child, etc.) to allow for what firewood would require. So, you need to know in advance that you will be ok with processing enough firewood every year going forward from now on. Cut/split/stack some wood, calculate the the volume you cut, extrapolate to what you will need (rough range 8-12 cord of pine), and then give yourself a 20% bonus because you will get more efficient in your methods later on. After doing this, you'll hopefully still feel the same about bringing in a wood boiler. If your fall-back is buying wood, and you're financially ok with that, then great - you're good to go.


 

I think I'm going to be ok with the firewood side of things.  I'm 40, no kids, other than my dogs that is, and I have  a fair bit of spare time.  Even WORST case if I decide to purchase my wood I'll still be WAY ahead financially compared to my 650 a month in electric heat bills over the winter


----------



## denvershepherd

Gasifier said:


> How tall are the ceilings in the room you want to put your storage? How big is the room you are puttin boiler and storage in? How much room do you have?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROY-E-HANSO...399?pt=BI_Air_Compressors&hash=item3f156978d7
> 
> Just one example. You would be surprised what you can find if you really want to look for it. Here is the one I found that fit my needs. 400 gallon air reciever tank.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/moving-in-the-tank-pictures-i.74168/#post-938094
> 
> If you search the web for air reciever tank, look around at places that sell used equipment, etc. Some of the companies will strap it to a pallet for you and ship it reasonably. Lot cheaper than buying a new tank. You can find an ASME rated tank with the stamp and spend much less. Not have any of the work that comes with used propane tanks. Sometimes the propane tanks can be found very cheaply though. Lots of options out there. Take your time. Don't make quick decisions.
> 
> If you haven't started on your wood yet and you are positive you are going with a wood gassification boiler, you may want to buy some wood now to get it started on the seasoning process now. If you can afford to spend the money, no shame in buying some wood that is already cut and split and delivered to your home. Especially with now experience processing wood. It is really nice to just have to stack it. Some guys on hearth.com do that exclusively.


 

My ceilings are only 9 feet in the wreck room where everything is going.  Just off the wreck room is the utility room which is only 10X9 so I may end up moving a wall and claiming some of the space from the wreck room. 

Thanks for the info on the tanks.  I have a feeling that is going to take some time.  My neighbor just dropped 3 cord of wood off in my yard that I have to stack so that should get me started.  Most of my neighbors are big on wood so I have a good support system 

Neil


----------



## dogwood

Neil, those storage tanks you see specifically made for wood boilers are ridiculously expensive as you noted. If you start scrounging around you'll find something suitable. Possible places to look are salvage yards, Craigslist, search on Google, propane dealers who may give you a lead- that's how I found mine, commercial agricultural feed and supply outfits who may have old ammonia nurse tanks (that's what mine is), recycling yards, and word of mouth. I mentioned to anyone I could think of what I needed. I like the idea of ASME air tanks because they are vertical, but hadn't thought of them when I was looking around. I imagine members here all have a story on how they located theirs. Many are posted if you do a search on site. Be creative and save a small fortune.

I googled "used propane tank Colorado" and found this place in Colorado that says it will locate and sell you a used propane tank. http://usedpropanetankstrucksandtransports.com/. 

Mike


----------



## huffdawg

Mine cost more to spray foam. I paid around $250 for both and $300 each to sprayfoam


----------



## denvershepherd

huffdawg said:


> Mine cost more to spray foam. I paid around $250 for both and $300 each to sprayfoam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 64405


 

lol. Those look like they have frosted over.  The fellow that may be doing my install mentioned a type of tank that I think someone on this thread mentioned.  Let me go back and take a look.

Neil


----------



## denvershepherd

kopeck said:


> Don't forget unpressurized storage like American Solartechnics. Tom is a member on here and if you don't like lifting heavy things and then finding and then dealing with welding the thing up so you can use it.
> 
> These tanks are nice since they give you lots of options later one. Adding a DHW coil or even a solar exchanger is pretty straight forward. Tom's a good guy to work with, I've had a condensation issue with my tank and he's been over to try and get it resolved.
> 
> K


 

It was American Solartechnics.  He said he has had great results with them but I'm wondering why they are so much less expensive than the other options I have looked at?  Do you have one of these Kopeck?  Anyone else have experience with these?

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## denvershepherd

Someone else has put a bug in my ear about the VIGAS Boilers.  Does anyone have an opinion on these?  They are quite a bit less expensive and I'm thinking there must be a reason for that?  Maybe not. 

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## JP11

denvershepherd said:


> Someone else has put a bug in my ear about the VIGAS Boilers. Does anyone have an opinion on these? They are quite a bit less expensive and I'm thinking there must be a reason for that? Maybe not.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


Like any newcomer to a market.. they have to be good on price and a good value to gain market share.  I've never seen anyone on here say a bad word about Mark at AHONA.  He's the reason I bought the vigas.  It starts getting hooked up next week.


----------



## Paver56

I just looked at American Solartechnics website.  I wish I had seen these tanks before I bought mine.  They look very nice.  I love the way that the heat exchangers hang off of the side of the tank.  That would have saved me a ton of money on the installation.  I was a pain in the neck to hook up 4 heat exchangers inside of the tank.


----------



## denvershepherd

Paver56 said:


> I just looked at American Solartechnics website. I wish I had seen these tanks before I bought mine. They look very nice. I love the way that the heat exchangers hang off of the side of the tank. That would have saved me a ton of money on the installation. I was a pain in the neck to hook up 4 heat exchangers inside of the tank.


 

I think its actually Tarm that recommends these with the Froling but I could be wrong on that.  I wonder how long they will last though?


----------



## maple1

Not much detail about those soft tanks there - like construction, and how big they are. That I saw.


----------



## denvershepherd

maple1 said:


> Not much detail about those soft tanks there - like construction, and how big they are. That I saw.


 

I'm not sure. I'll send them an email or my installer fellow.  He invited me down to see a job he just did with them and a Froling 50 but it's around an hour and a half job so not sure when I will make the trip.  Maybe next weekend.


----------



## Clarkbug

denvershepherd said:


> I think its actually Tarm that recommends these with the Froling but I could be wrong on that. I wonder how long they will last though?


 
If you look for "Tom in Maine" he is the guy to talk to about the American Solartechnics tanks.  He can give you all of the info on the sides, the assembly, the liner materials, etc.  I looked into his product, which seems really well built, and they can custom make a tank to fit whatever your space is, if you have a funky layout.  I stumbled into my storage tanks for free on a job site (just had to pay to move them), but it ended up being perfect for my space.  I wish I had more storage, but now its just incentive to reduce the amount of air infiltration in my house.


----------



## maple1

Clarkbug said:


> If you look for "Tom in Maine" he is the guy to talk to about the American Solartechnics tanks. He can give you all of the info on the sides, the assembly, the liner materials, etc. I looked into his product, which seems really well built, and they can custom make a tank to fit whatever your space is, if you have a funky layout. I stumbled into my storage tanks for free on a job site (just had to pay to move them), but it ended up being perfect for my space. I wish I had more storage, but now its just incentive to reduce the amount of air infiltration in my house.


 
Clarkbug, can you heat all your storage up from cold on one load of wood?


----------



## huffdawg

Yesterday I went from  120 on 1200 gals  to 180 on a load and half  while satisfying   loads.  I think it would take me around  2 and a half to 3 loads to heat it all from scratch.  With douglas Fir .  You guys get longer burn times with the hardwoods though.

Huff


----------



## Paver56

Clarksburg,
How do you like the Varmebaronen?  Where did you buy it?  Dean Zook from Smokeless Heat is only 15 min away from me.  If they would have had a lambda unit I think I would have seriously considered one.  I was really impressed with their boiler.  They seem very easy to clean.


----------



## maple1

Paver56 said:


> Clarksburg,
> How do you like the Varmebaronen? Where did you buy it? Dean Zook from Smokeless Heat is only 15 min away from me. If they would have had a lambda unit I think I would have seriously considered one. I was really impressed with their boiler. They seem very easy to clean.


 
On the flip side to the lamda comment, their utter simplicity has me on the brink of ordering one. There is only one thing in the whole boiler unit I'm looking at that even resembles a moving or electrical part, and that is the loading/storage circulator & flue temp controller for it. Even if the ones coming with it suddenly go unavailable or obsolete for some reason in the future, those tasks can be accomplished by all kinds of common circs & controls that have been on the market for years. It has been a long winter of researching every wood burning & back up combination option out there, and I keep coming back to it. I wish I was a lot closer to Smokeless than I am - usually not too fussy about buying something this major sight unseen. Now if only the currency markets would just cooperate for a week or so...


----------



## Paver56

I know that Dean is heating a large farmhouse with his.  I am not home during the day and in the winter I plow snow-a normal winter that is.  For the sake of my wife, I wanted a lambda unit.  I do not think you would be dissapointed with the Varmabaronen.  If I remember correctly, one of my concerns with them was their weight and the thickness of the steel.  I may be wrong on that since I researched so many boilers.  Good luck on whatever boiler you choose.


----------



## Clarkbug

maple1 said:


> Clarkbug, can you heat all your storage up from cold on one load of wood?


 
Currently, I cant charge them on one fill, but thats really due to my wood supply more than anything else. Some of my wood is still a little damp for my liking, and it hisses at me when first getting going. Also, the Varm will take a 20" stick, and some of mine (that I had to purchase seasoned last August) is only 12" or so. Lots of it is in the 14 to 16". So my firebox runs out of space, but its not really full (if that makes any sense). For a full charge, I typically have to go back and add a few more pieces once the kindling that I put in the bottom burns down. Its also dependent on how much my house is pulling out, since if there is a call for heat, it goes to the house instead of storage.

EDIT: And by charge, I mean that I would heat them from where I can still get usable heat out of the top, which is around 140 for me.  I cannot heat them from room temp to 180 on a single load, that takes two or three fills.


----------



## Clarkbug

Paver56 said:


> Clarksburg,
> How do you like the Varmebaronen? Where did you buy it? Dean Zook from Smokeless Heat is only 15 min away from me. If they would have had a lambda unit I think I would have seriously considered one. I was really impressed with their boiler. They seem very easy to clean.


 
Paver,

I like it a lot!  I have a few posts about it here on the forum if you dig around some, but I really couldnt ask for much more.  I did buy from Dean, as he is the only Varmebaronen distributor in the US I think.  His service has been top notch, I cant praise it enough.  He even came up here to NY to help me get it going.

As far as the boiler itself, its amazingly easy to clean.  The curved tubes made it a snap.  I brushed them out once a week this winter, which was probably overkill, but it only took a few minutes, so why not?  Maple is right, that its very simple to operate.  Turn on the fan, light it up, and everything else just works.  Only adjustment is when you want the loading pump to kick on, and then when the fan and loading pump kick back off.  Otherwise, its all pretty simple stuff, not a lot go to wrong.  Some of the models dont even have the fan, but you need a tall enough chimney for that. 

Im pretty sure that I dont have the boiler "tweaked" for optimal efficiency, but I havent played much with all of the air adjustments because I cant notice a difference myself.  Maybe I should just play with it and see what happens? 

There was a rumor here on the Hearth forums that Varmebaronen might be coming out with a lambda model in the future, but I have no idea where that stands. Just so you know, my wife can operate this boiler with no issue at all.  She was a little hesitant, but when I travel for work she was able to get it fired up just fine for days at a time. 

It does weigh less than a lot of other models, but it was still too darn heavy when trying to move it around   There isnt the same amount of refractory as some other boilers, which I thought was a benefit.  The combustion tunnel is something that will need to be replaced eventually, but it held up pretty well this year.  The thickness of the steel doesnt have me worried, as I think there are a lot of other factors that would go into how long the boiler lasts.


----------



## hiker88

woodsmaster said:


> Maybe not. I Know they are sold by TARM BIOMASS.
> Edit: I also see they are $5,750.00 cheaper than last year with the spring sale.


 
You must mean $500 - $750 cheaper  I'm getting mine through the spring sale and your post made me bug out for a sec!

EDIT:
Nope,  Woodmaster is right - I just looked at the flyer again and they say the pellet system is $5,750 cheaper than last year.  I'm actually going with the FHG wood boiler which is $750 off hence my confusion


----------



## kopeck

denvershepherd said:


> It was American Solartechnics. He said he has had great results with them but I'm wondering why they are so much less expensive than the other options I have looked at? Do you have one of these Kopeck? Anyone else have experience with these?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


 
Sorry Neil, I've been away for a few days.

I do have one.  I've had a small hiccup with mine but Tom's been great to deal with getting it resolved.  He's also just a neat person to talk to, I would do business with him again.

I'm guessing I could have one of these tanks from pallet to ready for water in about a half a day.  I put mine together by my self over a few evenings. 

What I liked about it was it was nothing more then putting it together, I didn't have to worry about finding someone to weld up a tank or then deal with getting it into my space.  I also didn't have to get a big expansion tank since this setup only adds a few gallons of water to the system.

When looking at the price of one of these tanks verses a converted LP tank keep in mind it's more then just the cost of the tank.  It's refitting it to do what you need it to, insulating it and getting the thing into your space.  The folks that can do all three of those things them selves, then yes the LP tank is going to be cheaper but if you have to hire out two out of three then the prices start to match up.

Flyingcow also has one and Heat Farmer has the new 1100 gallon monster.  They might chime in or maybe you could send them a PM.

K


----------



## henfruit

Hiker with the 750.00 of list where does that put the price of the froling?


----------



## hiker88

henfruit said:


> Hiker with the 750.00 of list where does that put the price of the froling?


 
About $10,200. That's the fully assembled boiler w\all near boiler piping included (termovar, low water cut off, normally open zone valve, air elimination scoop and vent, thermal expansion tank and also the near boiler wiring complete).

Meant to say I don't know where the line ends between the boiler price and my add ons.  Nothing's free...


----------



## hiker88

kopeck said:


> Sorry Neil, I've been away for a few days.
> 
> I do have one. I've had a small hiccup with mine but Tom's been great to deal with getting it resolved. He's also just a neat person to talk to, I would do business with him again.
> 
> I'm guessing I could have one of these tanks from pallet to ready for water in about a half a day. I put mine together by my self over a few evenings.
> 
> What I liked about it was it was nothing more then putting it together, I didn't have to worry about finding someone to weld up a tank or then deal with getting it into my space. I also didn't have to get a big expansion tank since this setup only adds a few gallons of water to the system.
> 
> When looking at the price of one of these tanks verses a converted LP tank keep in mind it's more then just the cost of the tank. It's refitting it to do what you need it to, insulating it and getting the thing into your space. The folks that can do all three of those things them selves, then yes the LP tank is going to be cheaper but if you have to hire out two out of three then the prices start to match up.
> 
> Flyingcow also has one and Heat Farmer has the new 1100 gallon monster. They might chime in or maybe you could send them a PM.
> 
> K


 
If it's any consulation,  the company I'm getting my boiler through also sells their own storage kit.  I flat out told them I was looking at Tom's tank and he said that if he was putting in a boiler w\storage he would use Tom's tank.  I would say that was a pretty big decision maker for me.

RE: the price issue.  I agree.  If I had done the propane thing the only thing I could have done on my own was shell out the dollars.  With the non pressure kits, I can pick it up w\my subaru and do everything on my own with a full warranty.


----------



## gtjp

Commercial message - moderated


----------



## denvershepherd

Should have my estimate back tomorrow.  What a process!!  Between the heat calc's, installer walkthough, design etc.... it's quite a process.  I have a feeling its going to be EXPENSIVE.  I'll let you all know so you can let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## denvershepherd

denvershepherd said:


> Should have my estimate back tomorrow. What a process!! Between the heat calc's, installer walkthough, design etc.... it's quite a process. I have a feeling its going to be EXPENSIVE. I'll let you all know so you can let me know what you think.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


Well the estimate came back today and as I suspected it is expensive 

Here is the text from the actual quote:

_*PLUMBING SCOPE:*_
_*Provide and install a Froling FHG Turbo 3000 40/50 indoor wood gasification boiler, emergency heat*_
_*dump, one 820 gallon non-pressurized storage tank, a Triangle Tube Smart 40 gallon indirect water*_
_*heater, one Triangle Tube Solo Prestige boiler, staple up hydronic heat tubing on 2nd and 3rd levels, and*_
_*Zurn Thermal Track on 1st and 4th levels, seven zones with round digital heat only thermostats, venting*_
_*and combustion air piping for propane boiler, type A chimney piping for wood boiler, storage tank heating*_
_*coils, domestic hot water coil, all piping, fittings, hangers, low voltage controls, low voltage wiring, indoor*_
_*gas piping, and pumps for hydronic heating system.*_
_*EXCLUSIONS:*_
_*All permit fees. All framing of walls, chimney chase, etc. Propane tank, line from propane tank to*_
_*house, digging and back fill of ditches, including all plumbing and gas ditches. Pipe insulation unless*_
_*otherwise noted. Any electrical, and any low voltage wiring unless otherwise noted. All outdoor gas*_
_*appliances, tanks, pressure regulators, or piping unless otherwise noted. Sealing of any building and or*_
_*roof penetrations. All demo work of walls, ceilings, floors, etc. Staple up heat transfer plates ( to be*_
_*provided by customer, contractor can supply at an additional cost). All flooring over-layment, finished*_
_*flooring, and under floor insulation.*_
_*PLUMBING SCOPE PROPOSAL PRICE INCLUDING MATERIALS, TAXES, AND LABOR:*_
_*$66,989.66*_

I'm thinking about installing the staple up hydronic heat tubing myself as it doesn't seem that complicated but I'm not sure how much that will save me.  There is a lot of money in exclusions listed as well so that scares me a little.  What does everyone think about the $66,989.66 price tag?

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## kopeck

What do I think?  Wow, that's expensive!

K


----------



## Paver56

That sounds expensive.  I know that I put up my tubing during construction but I do not have near that much in my entire system.  I have over 7000' of tubing, 7 zones, a triangle tube propane boiler, a triangle tube indirect water heater, a froling 40/50 and a 1500 gal unpressurized storage tank with 4 heat exchangers in it.
I put the froling and storage in 2.5 years after I built.  I think total, it cost around 20-23k.


----------



## Paver56

I should clarify-my whole system was not 20-23k, just the froling storage and installation.  On the bright side, I have not burned an ounce of propane since it was installed, and can go a week between burns right now for my dhw.  That is with 3 young kids and my wife having a salon  in our house.


----------



## dogwood

Neil, I'd say that cost estimate is ridiculously high. I can't imagine anyone else on this site having spent that much unless they had some very unusual circumstances. Even then..... Maybe others could share their costs. I'm guessing my setup ran no more than $15,000 for the boiler and parts plus $3500 more for a new Goodman propane backup furnace installed. Other than the Goodman I am doing my own labor though. I'm heating a 3000 sq. ft house and purchased a Tarm Solo Innova 50 bolier.

Mike


----------



## maple1

It's high, yes - but is it unrealistic? I'm not so sure. If I was the one retrofitting in-floor/radiant heat into four levels - practically an entire dual-source heating system including chimneys - well, that's a pretty large job to say the least. I know I go in my basement & look up and think about putting some in-floor up there, and I say forgetaboutit pretty quick. Retrofitting something like that is a huge undertaking.


----------



## dogwood

How much of the cost do you think the retrofitting of in-floor radiant might be?


----------



## maple1

Not sure who you're asking - but if there's floor above & ceiling below, I couldn't even hazard a guess.


----------



## denvershepherd

Paver56 said:


> That sounds expensive.  I know that I put up my tubing during construction but I do not have near that much in my entire system.  I have over 7000' of tubing, 7 zones, a triangle tube propane boiler, a triangle tube indirect water heater, a froling 40/50 and a 1500 gal unpressurized storage tank with 4 heat exchangers in it.
> I put the froling and storage in 2.5 years after I built.  I think total, it cost around 20-23k.



Yes. That amount I would be fine with.


----------



## denvershepherd

dogwood said:


> How much of the cost do you think the retrofitting of in-floor radiant might be?



I'm going to try and get a breakdown of that. I'd obviously like to know that myself.


----------



## skfire

denvershepherd said:


> I'm going to try and get a breakdown of that. I'd obviously like to know that myself.


 
It is not very very expensive if you consider the overall scope* but*
you need to see an itemized breakdown with values.
Froling and piping/vlvs, tank and dz not more than 20,000 if no ridiculous runs or chimney installs are involved.

The staple up labor is the rub and I did not see anything regarding types of pumps, vlvs, materials used and/or system diagrams.

Have you seen ay of this installer's previous work?
In my experience, the extra dough spent on something "expensive" but professionally done, is hands down more valuable than the "cheaper" headaches and slop.

Take your time.

Scott


----------



## Fred61

I personally think that if you are burning pine or other softwoods you should set up with a good amount of storage and do batch burns. Due to the poor coaling qualities of pine you will  encounter several instances when the unit will not re-light, especially in a Wood Gun where the fire is completely deprived of air upon shutdown (unless your gaskets leak). I burned a limited amount of pine in my Wood Gun but only when there was a high heat demand and idling was at a minimum. Having said that, I personally believe that when batch burning, the conditions in the firebox do not change enough to make a lambda controlled boiler necessary. From what I am readiing, the Garn appears to be a perfect fit for your application.


----------



## woodsmaster

It's a lot but, you want a lot. Probably $25,000 in matterials. I'd try to get another estimate to compaire to if possable.


----------



## maple1

I'm not in the installations or supply business, but I was thinking there would be more than 25k in materials - that's a pretty extensive list of items. Doesn't take long for a bunch of fittings, pipe & controls to add up, I know that. I didn't try to add all the listed items up though.


----------



## woodsmaster

Ya probably more than 25,000 in matterials.


----------



## woodsmaster

Might be better to get different house.


----------



## denvershepherd

woodsmaster said:


> It's a lot but, you want a lot. Probably $25,000 in matterials. I'd try to get another estimate to compaire to if possable.


 
Here is a better breakdown.

Froling FHG 3000 40/50 gasification indoor wood boiler, non-pressurized 820 gallon
thermal storage tank, two heating coils, one domestic coil, expansion tank, boiler fill valve,
back flow preventor, emergency heat dump, system controls, system pumps, and
thermostatic mixing valve for hydronic system.
$19,507.65


High efficiency propane boiler, 40 gallon indirect water heater, expansion tank, boiler fill
valve, back flow preventor, seven thermostats, system and zone pumps, Zurn thermal
track, zone tubing and manifolds for seven zones, boiler venting, condensate drain for
propane boiler, indoor gas piping for propane boiler, copper piping, fittings, brackets,
hangers, zone controls, concrete sealer, structural adhesive and screws for thermal track,
domestic thermostatic mixing valve, and type A high temp wood boiler chimney piping
$26,618.36

Estimated freight costs for wood boiler system: $1,200.00
Equipment (fork lift, pallet jack, and man lift): $850.33
Taxes: $3,413.32
Labor for 4 weeks (will probably take 5 – 6 weeks to complete): $15,400.00

Job Total: $66,989.66

All the exclusions I posted earlier still apply. 

Also.... Is it not in good taste for me to be putting these prices up on this forum?  Someone had sent me a private email suggesting that.  I'm not sure how all the rules work on this forum so if I'm doing something wrong one of you more senior members please feel free to let me know.

Thanks everyone,

Neil


----------



## infinitymike

Definitely alot of money. But for what you are getting it doesn't seem like alot. Can you use your existing heat emitters instead of doing 4 floors of staple up. 
That would really cut down on the labor and materials. Also if the wood will be your primary heat source again can you use your existing boiler for back up since it probably wont get much use.

 I spent almost $17,000.00 for my system. The unit was $9,000.00 and the rest went into building a boiler room,(which was my cost of materials and my labor) and  paying my plumber for materials and labor. I used my existing boiler and heat emitters.I would love to do staple up but its labor intense.

As far as the price listing here, I personally don't see a problem unless you are giving out the installers name and address. But I also don't really know all the rules.  

Maybe take it slow and do it in phases. So it's not one big bang.


----------



## mikefrommaine

woodsmaster said:


> Might be better to get different house.




Or take a sabbatical from work after taking a few plumbing courses at the local community college and DIY.


----------



## dogwood

Neil, 

You can go online at places like PexSupply and price out each of those smaller plumbing parts you listed. Tarm Biomass would give you the cost on the Froling and shipping. A propane boiler shouldn't be all that expensive. Menard's site has all the chimney parts and prices. Find the prices online for everything else you need and add it up yourself. Look for alternatives to the staple up radiant. I bet you could cut the heck out of the $26,618 and labor cost figures. If I thought my installation was going over $20,000 total, it wouldn't be happening. 

If I had anything near your budget and your situation I'd find a way to fit in the Garn (because it has its own storage and doesn't need a chimney) and estimate pex instead of copper pipe for panel rads instead of staple up, and price a standard boiler. There is a wide variance in boiler and furnace prices. I can't believe you couldn't come in under $30,000 even with labor.


----------



## denvershepherd

infinitymike said:


> Definitely alot of money. But for what you are getting it doesn't seem like alot. Can you use your existing heat emitters instead of doing 4 floors of staple up.
> That would really cut down on the labor and materials. Also if the wood will be your primary heat source again can you use your existing boiler for back up since it probably wont get much use.
> 
> I spent almost $17,000.00 for my system. The unit was $9,000.00 and the rest went into building a boiler room,(which was my cost of materials and my labor) and paying my plumber for materials and labor. I used my existing boiler and heat emitters.I would love to do staple up but its labor intense.
> 
> As far as the price listing here, I personally don't see a problem unless you are giving out the installers name and address. But I also don't really know all the rules.
> 
> Maybe take it slow and do it in phases. So it's not one big bang.


 

The existing radiators are old electric baseboard that we want to get rid of.  We don't have an existing boiler as the entire house is electric baseboard heat.  I think I can do the staple up myself but it will take some time which I'm ok with.

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## denvershepherd

dogwood said:


> Neil,
> 
> You can go online at places like PexSupply and price out each of those smaller plumbing parts you listed. Tarm Biomass would give you the cost on the Froling and shipping. A propane boiler shouldn't be all that expensive. Menard's site has all the chimney parts and prices. Find the prices online for everything else you need and add it up yourself. Look for alternatives to the staple up radiant. I bet you could cut the heck out of the $26,618 and labor cost figures. If I thought my installation was going over $20,000 total, it wouldn't be happening.
> 
> If I had anything near your budget and your situation I'd find a way to fit in the Garn (because it has its own storage and doesn't need a chimney) and estimate pex instead of copper pipe for panel rads instead of staple up, and price a standard boiler. There is a wide variance in boiler and furnace prices. I can't believe you couldn't come in under $30,000 even with labor.


 

Great points Dogwood.  Maybe I just need to buckle down and do the research.  I think you are right about finding better prices for the individual pieces.  I'll keep you all posted.

Neil


----------



## TCaldwell

Another question is how involved do you really want to be?  This proposal is for a whole house system with 2 boilers that uses the most efficient  products out there. I  would suspect there is a fair amount of engineered design time to insure the system runs optimally and is guaranteed to do so. You could shop the parts to death and maybe find a qualified installer and hope it works in the end, in my opinion this is a risk not worth taking, the system is comlpex and requires product knowledge by the installer. Most of us have integrated wood boilers and storage into our existing  heating systems, this in it's self runs over in cost and time and comes with alot of babysitting to get the bugs out. Yes it is a learning curve and can be rewarding and frustrating with no guarantees. This forum has helped us all get through. My opinion would be to try to negotiate a better package price, let them have the responsibility and start stockpiling firewood.


----------



## woodsmaster

A job as big of yours would be quite an undertaking. Maybe you could do some of it and hire the rest.


----------



## Floydian

Hello Neil,

With the big numbers being discussed here I cant help but think there is a better way to solve this comfort/efficiency game.

It seems you love your house and plan on it being your "last" house with this kind of investment. If this is the case I would strongly consider a few things:

Get a blower door test done( a few hundred $'s) to know what kind of air leakage your dealing with.

Do you foresee needing new siding and window upgrades at some point? If so, this could be a great time to add a lot of R value to your wall, add a continuous air barrier,
lower your heat load and increase comfort all at the same time.

It sound like your south facing glass is typical passive solar of the 70's and may not be helping you all that much. There are important ratios between % of south facing glass to floor area, amount of  thermal mass that the sun actually "sees", solar heat gain of the glass itself (SHGC), quality of the building envelope, etc.
Properly designed south facing glass should gain more energy than it losses but is not as easy as just loading up a wall with lost of glass.

Obviously I am in no position to say if this is the best approach for your situation, but while your getting crazy expensive quotes on heating systems you might as well get a crazy expensive quote on a deep energy retrofit  from someone who knows air barriers, super insulation retrofits, heat recovery ventilation, passive solar design, etc.

I recommend spending some time here:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/

A gasser+storage may yet be a good option, but I think this too big of an investment to not consider your building envelope first and foremost.

Good luck,
Noah


----------



## bro-tek

Hi Neil,
This may have been mention before, IMHO I would recommend keeping the electric heat has your backup & post pone the propane boiler.
Buy a small generator for any hydro down time, to supply the wood boiler.
Sorry if this has been mention before.
You will be happy with the Froling.
Richard


----------



## denvershepherd

Floydian said:


> Hello Neil,
> 
> With the big numbers being discussed here I cant help but think there is a better way to solve this comfort/efficiency game.
> 
> It seems you love your house and plan on it being your "last" house with this kind of investment. If this is the case I would strongly consider a few things:
> 
> Get a blower door test done( a few hundred $'s) to know what kind of air leakage your dealing with.
> 
> Do you foresee needing new siding and window upgrades at some point? If so, this could be a great time to add a lot of R value to your wall, add a continuous air barrier,
> lower your heat load and increase comfort all at the same time.
> 
> It sound like your south facing glass is typical passive solar of the 70's and may not be helping you all that much. There are important ratios between % of south facing glass to floor area, amount of thermal mass that the sun actually "sees", solar heat gain of the glass itself (SHGC), quality of the building envelope, etc.
> Properly designed south facing glass should gain more energy than it losses but is not as easy as just loading up a wall with lost of glass.
> 
> Obviously I am in no position to say if this is the best approach for your situation, but while your getting crazy expensive quotes on heating systems you might as well get a crazy expensive quote on a deep energy retrofit from someone who knows air barriers, super insulation retrofits, heat recovery ventilation, passive solar design, etc.
> 
> I recommend spending some time here:
> http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/
> 
> A gasser+storage may yet be a good option, but I think this too big of an investment to not consider your building envelope first and foremost.
> 
> Good luck,
> Noah


 

All great points!  Thanks.


----------



## denvershepherd

woodsmaster said:


> A job as big of yours would be quite an undertaking. Maybe you could do some of it and hire the rest.


 
Question...When my installer talked to Tarm they mentioned that I should only get 500-800 gallons of storage because they said based on my heat calc and usage that anything over that would not be efficient and that I would have to do multiple burns a day to keep the large water storage hot.  I was under the impression that more storage was better.  Am I confused on something here?  I guess if you have way more storage than you are using then I can see that being a waste.

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## henfruit

Neil,Based on your heat load you only want to be burning twice a day on the coldest of days.I would have a minimum of 1000 gallons of storage.I think you have spoken to Mark at ahona about your needs?


----------



## denvershepherd

henfruit said:


> Neil,Based on your heat load you only want to be burning twice a day on the coldest of days.I would have a minimum of 1000 gallons of storage.I think you have spoken to Mark at ahona about your needs?


Hi Henfruit,
Yes, I have spoken with Mark and I was going to go with the 1000 gallon storage from ahona but the comment from tarm saying I shouldn't have more than 800 gallons has me concerned.  I wouldn't think the froling would have any trouble heating a 1000 gallons easily, would it?

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## JP11

denvershepherd said:


> Hi Henfruit,
> Yes, I have spoken with Mark and I was going to go with the 1000 gallon storage from ahona but the comment from tarm saying I shouldn't have more than 800 gallons has me concerned. I wouldn't think the froling would have any trouble heating a 1000 gallons easily, would it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


It's all just thermodynamics.  Storage can be "too big" if it's poorly insulated.  I have 1k gallons.. and I would love 4!  I wouldn't mind that it would take me a couple of days of wide open burning to get it up to temp.. cause you'd have a fire every couple of days in the middle of winter. 

BUT.... I'd lose a whole lot more space than I'm willing to.  1k gallons is a good compromise I think with floor space vs. heat storage.  My verticals take up about 4x8 of floor space.  Another 2x8 for the expansion tanks.

JP


----------



## henfruit

Neil, The froling should handle it ok.It all depends on how long you want to go between each fireing.Less storage less usable btus to heat with.it is all on how often you want to be building a fire to keep the tanks hot . 1000 gallons works great for me 2 loads a day in the middle of the winter.


----------



## kopeck

I think I'm sort of repeating what others have said but what it comes down to is what you want your pattern to be.

Less storage, less fuel to get it up to temp but also less usable heat stored.

More storage more fuel to get it up to temp but more heat stored.

Ideally I think you want to match your storage so at a normal interval (say twice a day during the winter) one full burn will get you up to temp and have enough stored heat to get you to your next burn.  My thinking is you can have to much storage, or a least to much for the way I want to operate.  I don't want to have to reload the boiler just to get my storage up to temp, even if that means I have more stored heat.  I'm not home so I want to hit my target temp on one burn and then not have to think about it until the next one.

Now there's a lot of factors there, like how many BTUs you are going to use between burns and how well you storage is insulated.

During the winter my Solo Innova 30 and 820 gallons of storage worked well for my house.  I lit fires twice a day and it was able to hit my target temp most to the time.  The few cold nights I did have I just threw a few extra chunks in before I went to sleep, no big deal.  When it warms up just one fire a day does the job, then one ever other day.

One thing I'm going to have to do is insulate my pipes.  I have a longish run back to to my zone valves and I'm always amazed at all the heat at the top of the stairs.  I don't know how many BTUs I'm loosing, it will be interesting to find out.

K


----------



## woodsmaster

I agree with kopeck that the storage can be to big if you cant heat it on a full load of wood while also meeting demand from the house. It does depend on your schedule and how you want to run it. If you are going to be home for a while each day and want to burn two loads to bring storage to temp then you can use larger storage. If I remember right you have a good size heat load so 800 gallon may be right for you ? It allso may depend on what tanks you can get a good deal on.


----------



## Paver56

I heat my 1500 gallons without any problem with my Froling.  One fire a day was sufficient in the winter.  When we get a cold winter, I will really get to see how my system works.  I love the 1500 gallon storage- I just went 9 days between fires for my DHW.  In the summer, I do not want to have to worry about burning every couple of days.


----------



## kopeck

Paver56 said:


> I heat my 1500 gallons without any problem with my Froling. One fire a day was sufficient in the winter. When we get a cold winter, I will really get to see how my system works. I love the 1500 gallon storage- I just went 9 days between fires for my DHW. In the summer, I do not want to have to worry about burning every couple of days.


 
You didn't say what size Froling you have though, that's a big factor.

K


----------



## skfire

Output vs storage vs time

Here are some of my burn data from last year.

tanks at 100f avg.
boiler loaded with 127lbs of mixed harwds(mostly ash &cherry) all between 15-19% mc and about 5.8cb ft(air/bark incl).
at end of burn & cycle(appr. 5hrs later.(actually ID fan shuts off after about 3hrs)) tanks at 187 avg (no load draws).
total system capacity app.850 gallons = 616,003btu(no consideration given to thermal mass loss towards tank/boiler steel).
burn was at avg(best) FG temp of 360-370f.

If I had another 400 gals of storage I would require back to back fires to bring storage up to same temp(again assuming no concurrent loads).
My system's design "allows" for heating down to 105f, so I can afford a large Dt, but the added storage would personally hinder my day, since I would need to back to back loads. Now I load, light(not always) and walk away. Easier to do one burn a day(heart of winter) or at worst 2 a day(0f)(am/pm).

Conversely if a system with smaller Dt requirements (say in the 50 range), the need for back to back fires is augmented(more so with having to heat more storage), but the balance in heat loss data, storage size vs firing/load time must be analyzed and planned accordingly.

I have personally found, it is easier to do smaller fires as needed, especially when planning multiple loads of laundry and kid's post-barn showers!
If I had more storage my DHW would suffer as well, since it would result in increased luke warm water, not enough temp to satisfy my DHW set up, thus more burning and more fuel(incrementally). 

The beauty of this, is the flexibility in system parameters and lifestyle preferences.

Good luck Neil, break it down more now and spend/worry less later.

Scott


----------



## maple1

I'm thinking that with well insulated tanks and good stratification, extra gallons won't hurt much. You wouldn't necessarily have to heat all the water fully - as long as the hot water is at the top, and the loads are taken off the top, extra cooler water on the bottom of storage won't affect loading/operation?


----------



## woodsmaster

maple1 said:


> I'm thinking that with well insulated tanks and good stratification, extra gallons won't hurt much. You wouldn't necessarily have to heat all the water fully - as long as the hot water is at the top, and the loads are taken off the top, extra cooler water on the bottom of storage won't affect loading/operation?


 That depends on if you can keep it from mixing.


----------



## Hansson

maple1 said:


> I'm thinking that with well insulated tanks and good stratification, extra gallons won't hurt much. You wouldn't necessarily have to heat all the water fully - as long as the hot water is at the top, and the loads are taken off the top, extra cooler water on the bottom of storage won't affect loading/operation?


 
You are right  And you can always fill you boiler full.
I have a smal tank to my boiler and have to wait to the tanks go down in temp before I can fill my boiler full.
Bigger tanks make the system more flexible. You can make a fire when you have the time..


----------



## Hansson

Is the  propane boiler for backup?
If so you haven't consider electricity for backup? The propane boiler was expensive 

Maybe you pay more for electricity in the US but the install is very simple.
Put the electric heater and the thermostat in the top of tank and its done.


----------



## denvershepherd

Hansson said:


> Is the propane boiler for backup?
> If so you haven't consider electricity for backup? The propane boiler was expensive
> 
> Maybe you pay more for electricity in the US but the install is very simple.
> Put the electric heater and the thermostat in the top of tank and its done.


 
I'm leaning more towards electric as the back up now.  I need to do more research on it but what products do you recommend for this?

Thanks,

Neil


----------



## Hansson

denvershepherd said:


> I'm leaning more towards electric as the back up now. I need to do more research on it but what products do you recommend for this?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Neil


 I have one like this.





The thermostat is in the unit and its on 4.5+4.5 Kw. This one is from varmebaronen but there must be hundreds of producers of this products.
Verry simpel install in R50mm


----------



## denvershepherd

Okkkkk.  After a longggg summer of home modification with new floors and the installation of heat transfer plates topping the list,  I'm actually ready to get the system installed.  I'm going with the Froling FHG-L and one last question I'm going back and forth with the installer about is storage.  We both agree that a 1000 gallon storage will work well.  I want to use the Ahona two 500 gallon stacked ASME certified tanks but my installers concern with them is that they will rust out?  He said he was going to research some pressurized tanks with liners in them?  Has anyone heard of these?  Has anyone had any problems with steel pressurized tanks rusting out and if so how long would such a process take?

Winter is quickly arriving so I know I better get moving on this.  What a process  Just wanted to say that this site and the people in it have been a HUGE help to me!

Thanks.


----------



## heaterman

denvershepherd said:


> Okkkkk. After a longggg summer of home modification with new floors and the installation of heat transfer plates topping the list, I'm actually ready to get the system installed. I'm going with the Froling FHG-L and one last question I'm going back and forth with the installer about is storage. We both agree that a 1000 gallon storage will work well. I want to use the Ahona two 500 gallon stacked ASME certified tanks but my installers concern with them is that they will rust out? He said he was going to research some pressurized tanks with liners in them? Has anyone heard of these? Has anyone had any problems with steel pressurized tanks rusting out and if so how long would such a process take?
> 
> Winter is quickly arriving so I know I better get moving on this. What a process Just wanted to say that this site and the people in it have been a HUGE help to me!
> 
> Thanks.


 
Of course they will rust out. Eventually. Probably long after you and I have both left this world though. I see literally dozens of expansion tanks every year that are well into the 50 year old range and still functioning perfectly. All other things being equal, a storage tank that is completely filled with system water will last at least as long or longer than an expansion tank. 
Watch the water quality and  get it tested by a lab every couple years. This will build a track record which will alert you any changes in the system which may require attention.


----------



## denvershepherd

heaterman said:


> Of course they will rust out. Eventually. Probably long after you and I have both left this world though. I see literally dozens of expansion tanks every year that are well into the 50 year old range and still functioning perfectly. All other things being equal, a storage tank that is completely filled with system water will last at least as long or longer than an expansion tank.
> Watch the water quality and get it tested by a lab every couple years. This will build a track record which will alert you any changes in the system which may require attention.


 
That's what I figured as well.  The storage will probably outlast the Froling lol.  Any problems going with the ASME tanks from Ahona that you know of?

Thanks.


----------



## JP11

You won't really find anyone on here talking bad about Mark and AHONA.  He's been great for me since about 2  years before I gave him a penny.  Happy to be his customer.

JP


----------



## denvershepherd

JP11 said:


> You won't really find anyone on here talking bad about Mark and AHONA. He's been great for me since about 2 years before I gave him a penny. Happy to be his customer.
> 
> JP


 
He's been very responsive via email which is great.  Do you have his ASME certified tanks?  I think they are the yellow ones on his website.

Thanks


----------



## JP11

denvershepherd said:


> He's been very responsive via email which is great. Do you have his ASME certified tanks? I think they are the yellow ones on his website.
> 
> Thanks


I don't. I scrounged two 500s and had them made into two vertical tanks.  I did buy my boiler from him though.  Funny.. as I type this his yellow tanks are the ad right above the box I'm typing in.

JP


----------



## CMAG

All this storage size talk got me thinking,  has anyone considered staging tanks


----------



## Wood-Wannabe

So Neil, how's it going?  Did you get your storage on line yet?  Are you heating with wood yet?  Gotten rid of those electric baseboards and that big electric bill?


----------



## denvershepherd

Wood-Wannabe said:


> So Neil, how's it going? Did you get your storage on line yet? Are you heating with wood yet? Gotten rid of those electric baseboards and that big electric bill?


 
Hi Wood-Wannabe,

WELLLLLLLLL.........funny you should ask lol.  After having all my plans in place, and hours away from pulling the trigger on the Froling, I did a 180 degree turn and purchased a Garn WHS-2000.  There were a few factors in my decision, but mainly all the unknowns about the storage finally made the Garn the more logical choice.  The last month has been a ZOO!  I was going to put the Garn in a "Garm Barn" but because I essentially live on a huge rock, the trenching for the lines from the barn to the home would have cost a lot of money.  So.... I had an addition built on the house that is now the new home for  the Garn.  They essentially finished the addition today and the next step is to have the company build the insulated enclosure around the Garn itself.  After that they will hook up and install the unit to the infloor radiant system.  There are a lot of specifics I'm leaving out but essentially that's where I am.  It's been a lot of scheduling and organization getting to this point but I feel like I'm probably less than a month away from getting online.  I have a bunch of pictures and videos of the Garn being delivered and the addition being built around it that I want to share on here....I just need to figure out how lol.


----------



## Wood-Wannabe

Well that is just tremendous.  I have been reading everything I can on hearth.com (including this excellent thread) for the last couple of weeks about gassifiers and more specifically the Garn units, I agree that since you need storage anyway, the Garn makes a lot of sense if you have room for it and can fit it somehow.  I know what you are talking about with the rock in the Denver foothills, used to own a house up near Aspen Park in Critchell where they had the big fires this summer.  I for one can't wait to see your install pictures!


----------



## infinitymike

Congratulations. 
We wold love to see all the pictures and videos wouyld be real cool too.
I use imageshack.us to upload my photos that are in my computer but hearth has made it real easy to upload a picture.
Just click on the upload file tab on the lower right corner. 
I uploaded a few videos to youtube and then cut and pasted the link. 

Hope that helps.


----------



## denvershepherd

infinitymike said:


> Congratulations.
> We wold love to see all the pictures and videos wouyld be real cool too.
> I use imageshack.us to upload my photos that are in my computer but hearth has made it real easy to upload a picture.
> Just click on the upload file tab on the lower right corner.
> I uploaded a few videos to youtube and then cut and pasted the link.
> 
> Hope that helps.


 
 Ok... Let me give the pictures a shot. I have lots but I'll try a few.  I'm getting some errors saying they are too large but it looks like some went up. Let me post and see what happens.


----------



## denvershepherd

Wood-Wannabe said:


> Well that is just tremendous. I have been reading everything I can on hearth.com (including this excellent thread) for the last couple of weeks about gassifiers and more specifically the Garn units, I agree that since you need storage anyway, the Garn makes a lot of sense if you have room for it and can fit it somehow. I know what you are talking about with the rock in the Denver foothills, used to own a house up near Aspen Park in Critchell where they had the big fires this summer. I for one can't wait to see your install pictures!


 

Are you still in the area?  I'm not very far from Aspen Park so if you every want to come buy to look at things just let me know.  I'll try to get more pics and videos up here. 

Thanks.


----------



## Wood-Wannabe

Wish I was, sure do miss the mountains.  But the Atlantic Ocean isn't bad either.  Love the pics!  Bet you can't wait to fire that thing up for the first time! 

A general Garn question... With the Garn, don't you get condensate from combustion when you first fire it up cold until you get to 130*F water?  I noticed on the recommended plumbing layouts for other gassifiers that you want to have a mixing/return valve so that the incoming water to the boiler is mixed with the heated outgoing water so that boiler wall temps are above the dewpoint of the combustion gases.  Seems that you can't do this with the Garn, which is no big deal if your minimum water temp is always above the dewpoint temp (I seem to recall reading 130*F).  Doesn't this limit you somewhat in that you need to burn when you get to 130*F with the Garn as compared to other gassifier installations where you don't need to burn until you are down to 115*F (or the low limit of your radiant floor heating or other large surface area room heat exchangers)?  I seem to recall that some types of radiators are effective down to 110*F.  I guess what I am asking is whether the Garn lower temp limit is set more by protecting the boiler from corrosion than by when your heat exchangers no longer supply enough heat?


----------



## denvershepherd

Wood-Wannabe said:


> Wish I was, sure do miss the mountains. But the Atlantic Ocean isn't bad either. Love the pics! Bet you can't wait to fire that thing up for the first time!
> 
> A general Garn question... With the Garn, don't you get condensate from combustion when you first fire it up cold until you get to 130*F water? I noticed on the recommended plumbing layouts for other gassifiers that you want to have a mixing/return valve so that the incoming water to the boiler is mixed with the heated outgoing water so that boiler wall temps are above the dewpoint of the combustion gases. Seems that you can't do this with the Garn, which is no big deal if your minimum water temp is always above the dewpoint temp (I seem to recall reading 130*F). Doesn't this limit you somewhat in that you need to burn when you get to 130*F with the Garn as compared to other gassifier installations where you don't need to burn until you are down to 115*F (or the low limit of your radiant floor heating or other large surface area room heat exchangers)? I seem to recall that some types of radiators are effective down to 110*F. I guess what I am asking is whether the Garn lower temp limit is set more by protecting the boiler from corrosion than by when your heat exchangers no longer supply enough heat?


 
Hmmmm,  I am certainly no expert when it comes to this stuff but I'm sure someone in this wonderful forum will step up and have an educated response to your question.  I will ask the installers what they think about that and get back to you with their response. 

You're right though, I cant wait to get it fired up!  Mostly so I can have a warm home and  warm floors


----------



## BoilerBob

DS
I think you will be satisfied with your choice of boiler. I never seen one, but I have been reading on here a lot and many folks wish they had one. They seem like the simplest, easiest boiler to run, with storage included. BTW no low temperature boiler protection needed on the garn.

Heaterman is the garn expert on here, give him a shout if you need any questions answered.


----------



## denvershepherd

NovaScotian said:


> DS
> I think you will be satisfied with your choice of boiler. I never seen one, but I have been reading on here a lot and many folks wish they had one. They seem like the simplest, easiest boiler to run, with storage included. BTW no low temperature boiler protection needed on the garn.
> 
> Heaterman is the garn expert on here, give him a shout if you need any questions answered.


 
Thanks for the encouragement that I made the right choice.  I guess the proof will be when they get it all hooked up and running.  I have a lot of confidence that it's going to work awesome from all that I've read on here.  I'll make sure I give a full report


----------



## denvershepherd

heaterman said:


> I'm curious as to what the difference is between finding space for a Garn vs 2 or 3 500 gallon tanks actually is.
> 
> Why not save the complexity and use a single unit that incorporates burner, heat exchanger and storage in an all in one package?
> 
> As for your question about tanks, I would have no idea where you could get them locally let alone who to have fab them up and connect.
> 
> My personal rule of thumb for tank sizing, based on nothing more than experience is pretty simple. I stick by a ratio that is basically for every 30,000but of heat loss connect 500 gallons of storage. The actual firing rate of the boiler matters little (within reason) as long as it is sufficient to sustain peak load + dumping a little into the storage while burning. Others may disagree and that is fine. My suggestion is based on average situations and is of course subject to the vagaries of any given application.
> 
> Your switching control between wood/LP can be nothing more than a single pole, double throw switch/aquastat that energizes one system or the other based on water temperature.


 

Hi Heaterman,

Just wanted to let you know that I ended up going with a Garn 2000.  Some pics of it's arrival are posted above.  I hear you are the 'go to' guy in here pertaining to Garns so I may bend your ear with some questions as they get it installed if that's ok?


----------



## EffectaBoilerUser (USA)

I am currently talking to a gentleman in an area of Colorado that says he is unable to successfully burn the dry pine wood that is readily available in his area due in fixed opening/non lambda boilers.

Have you had any thought about this?

Does anyone know of those burning this dry pine in NON Lambda controlled boilers?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## denvershepherd

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I am currently talking to a gentleman in an area of Colorado that says he is unable to successfully burn the dry pine wood that is readily available in his area due in fixed opening/non lambda boilers.
> 
> Have you had any thought about this?
> 
> Does anyone know of those burning this dry pine in NON Lambda controlled boilers?
> 
> I hope not.  I haven't fired mine up yet but I have 7 cord of dry pine waiting to burn in it.  I'll call Garn and see what they say and get back to you.


----------



## denvershepherd

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I am currently talking to a gentleman in an area of Colorado that says he is unable to successfully burn the dry pine wood that is readily available in his area due in fixed opening/non lambda boilers.
> 
> Have you had any thought about this?
> 
> Does anyone know of those burning this dry pine in NON Lambda controlled boilers?
> 
> Any feedback would be greatly appreciated![/quote
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not. I haven't fired mine up yet but I have 7 cord of dry pine waiting to burn in it. I'll call Garn and see what they say and get back to you.


----------



## maple1

As long as its dry, sounds fishy to me.

You might have to adjust your air settings a bit, but once you get them set you should be good if your fuel is more or less consistent.


----------



## denvershepherd

Does that mean I shouldn't burn a mixture of soft and hard woos together in the Garn?


----------



## maple1

I'll let someone with a Garn answer that one more specifically, but my general comment would be as long as it's dry - burn it.


----------



## denvershepherd

I just spoke with a very knowledgeable fellow at Garn in regards to burning the very dry pine and he's said its most likely due to the high altitude and the extremely dry wood.  The fix for the high altitude is a high altitude kit, which apparently I have, that gets more O2 into the burn chamber.  If the pine is super dry he said to not split it which will reduce the surface area using less O2.  When the fire burns more air than is available it causes a phenomena known as 'puffing'.  This can make the Garn sound like a locomotive lol.  I hope that doesn't happen at my place. I'll think its going to explode or something.  Bottom line is that the Garn can burn the very dry pine. You just might have to make subtle adjustments.  The guy would still be talking to me about it if I didn't tell him I had to go lol. Wonderful customer service they have at Garn.  Another assurance that I went with the right product.


----------



## mikefrommaine

Are you burning in the garn already?


----------



## denvershepherd

mikefrommaine said:


> Are you burning in the garn already?




No. It has not been fully installed yet. Probably 3 weeks away yet.


----------



## heaterman

Wood-Wannabe said:


> Wish I was, sure do miss the mountains. But the Atlantic Ocean isn't bad either. Love the pics! Bet you can't wait to fire that thing up for the first time!
> 
> A general Garn question... With the Garn, don't you get condensate from combustion when you first fire it up cold until you get to 130*F water? I noticed on the recommended plumbing layouts for other gassifiers that you want to have a mixing/return valve so that the incoming water to the boiler is mixed with the heated outgoing water so that boiler wall temps are above the dewpoint of the combustion gases. Seems that you can't do this with the Garn, which is no big deal if your minimum water temp is always above the dewpoint temp (I seem to recall reading 130*F). Doesn't this limit you somewhat in that you need to burn when you get to 130*F with the Garn as compared to other gassifier installations where you don't need to burn until you are down to 115*F (or the low limit of your radiant floor heating or other large surface area room heat exchangers)? I seem to recall that some types of radiators are effective down to 110*F. I guess what I am asking is whether the Garn lower temp limit is set more by protecting the boiler from corrosion than by when your heat exchangers no longer supply enough heat?


 
I have seen Garns on radiant floor applications routinely run all the way down to the 105-110* range with no ill effect. You are however borderline condensing at that point so I would advise anyone doing so to have a firm handle on the moisture content of the fuel. When we start one up cold, like an installation in the winter, water temps can be in the 40* range and condensate will literally pour out of the exhaust. We're talking buckets.......Once water temps get much above 95-100* the condensation stops.
There is no problem running a Garn down to the low 100* range because you are never idling the fire when it burns. Operating at water temps that low would of course dictate that the heat emitters are sized to deliver adequate btu's in that range. There are often design problems from that perspective.

In addition, you never have to worry about "boiler protection" or elevating return water temps with a Garn because the firebox, heat exchanger and water vessel are all one unit. You can't "shock" a Garn because the sheer volume of water eliminates rapid temperature drop that can mess up small volume boilers.


----------



## denvershepherd

mikefrommaine said:


> Are you burning in the garn already?


 
Install still going   It's amazing how long it takes to get one of these up and running.  Here are some more pics...


----------



## infinitymike

Very nice work. You're in the home stretch. 
It doesn't look like you have much room above. 
Isn't there some sort of opening on top that you need to access ?


----------



## denvershepherd

infinitymike said:


> Very nice work. You're in the home stretch.
> It doesn't look like you have much room above.
> Isn't there some sort of opening on top that you need to access ?


 
Thanks! It's getting close. We are going to spray foam the roof and leave it open all the way up to the peak. That way there will be like 4 or 5 feet of space above the manhole opening. The trusses are not blocking access to the opening either.


----------



## infinitymike

denvershepherd said:


> Thanks! It's getting close. We are going to spray foam the roof and leave it open all the way up to the peak. That way there will be like 4 or 5 feet of space above the manhole opening. The trusses are not blocking access to the opening either.



Sorry. The pictures are decieving. Again looks good. How long before you light 'er up?


----------



## denvershepherd

infinitymike said:


> Sorry. The pictures are decieving. Again looks good. How long before you light 'er up?


 
Thanks.  The sooner the better.  The main installer is having knee surgery so I'd like to wait till he can come back.  I'm not really sure how much they have left but I'm sure a few weeks at least.  I'll make an announcement when its fired up. lol


----------



## infinitymike

denvershepherd said:


> Thanks.  The sooner the better.  The main installer is having knee surgery so I'd like to wait till he can come back.  I'm not really sure how much they have left but I'm sure a few weeks at least.  I'll make an announcement when its fired up. lol



Ouch. Depending on the type of surgery, he could be out for at least 4 weeks or more. 
Definetly keep us posted. What are you heating with now?  I'm sure it's cold and snowy there!


----------



## denvershepherd

infinitymike said:


> Ouch. Depending on the type of surgery, he could be out for at least 4 weeks or more.
> Definetly keep us posted. What are you heating with now? I'm sure it's cold and snowy there!


 
Yes. That's a whole other store.  When the electrician came two weeks to route power for the Garn we had him remove the electrical for the current electric baseboard since we want to get rid of them for esthetic reason.  We had no idea it would take this long to get the Garn up and running so for the last couple of weeks including some below 0 days, we have been without electric heat.  We have been surviving on two pellet stoves.  They do 'ok' but the house is around 48-50 degrees.  Not the most comfortable but hopefully its very temporary.


----------



## Duetech

Portage and main optimizer 250 would be my suggestion. The mess is out of the house and the unit is fairly flexible and tunable.


----------



## infinitymike

denvershepherd said:


> Yes. That's a whole other store.  When the electrician came two weeks to route power for the Garn we had him remove the electrical for the current electric baseboard since we want to get rid of them for esthetic reason.  We had no idea it would take this long to get the Garn up and running so for the last couple of weeks including some below 0 days, we have been without electric heat.  We have been surviving on two pellet stoves.  They do 'ok' but the house is around 48-50 degrees.  Not the most comfortable but hopefully its very temporary.



48-50* is most definitely not comfortable. It's down right crazy. I hope it is a very fast temporary. And hopefully this doesn't leave a sour taste in your wife's mouth, so that everything else related to the garn will irritate her. Like everytime you spend hours scrounging, splitting and stacking. If you can afford it, take her out to a nice hotel for New Years and maybe stay there the rest of the week. A little honey goes a long way. Have a safe and WARM New Year.


----------



## maple1

Man that's downright cold inside.

I think I'd be doing whatever I had to do to get that Garn up & running, even if you need to find another substitute installer guy. I couldn't sleep at night with it being that cold inside & having that awesome beast almost ready for action - and my wife would make sure I didn't if I did happen to doze off.

Good luck!


----------



## Blue Tornado

WOW! Quite a thread.

Been a month since the last post, I hope things are well with you and your Garn. Hopefully your new system was up and running through the cold spell last week.


----------



## denvershepherd

Blue Tornado said:


> WOW! Quite a thread.
> 
> Been a month since the last post, I hope things are well with you and your Garn. Hopefully your new system was up and running through the cold spell last week.


 

WHAT A PROCESS BUT IT'S UP AND ONLINE   Sorry I've been so slow getting back to everyone.  I've had the Garn up and online for a little over 3 weeks now and although winter is almost over, I'm ecstatic to have it done!  I just finished with the chemical clean yesterday when I drained the tank, and the Garn was refilled this morning and I'm firing it now to get it back up to temperature.  It's amazing how fast that thing can heat up 2000 gallons of water from just burning wood.  It still has been cold outside here the past 3 weeks as I'm at about 8000 feet in Colorado so the Garn has been tested a little bit.  What it has faced so far, it has passed with ease!  I'm sure some of you know my story but I retrofitted the house with in floor hydronic heat using the under floor method and aluminum plates that the pex snaps into.  I was skeptical but it really does warm the house up nice.  Not to mention how nice just having warm tile on the feet is.   The only issue I have with the Garn so far is that there is a little bit of smoke coming into the room from somewhere.  The installers can seem to find where it is coming from but they suspect the seal on the door and want me to play around with tightening it up.  Oh, and I've had some "puffing".  Garn has informed me how to fix that issue when I get my next supply of wood. 

I'm going to go down and do another burn right now but I just wanted to say thanks to everyone on here that helped me from the beginning to end of this process.  From someone who didn't even know what wood gasification was, to now having all my heat and DHW provided from a wood boiler, it really is a miracle lol. 

I hope that I can pay it forward if anyone else is wanting to make the switch to wood heating.   Not that I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I can now say I've been there and done that!

Thanks!


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## Floydian

That is great, denvershepherd! Congrats.
I've had a blast with my new system for the last few months now and appreciate the feeling. Enjoy!

As far as the smoke smell-It is pretty hard for me to imagine any smoke coming out of the door with the strong negative draft of the Garn's but I don't know the boiler. Any chance the cleanout ports need to be tightened down a little? Or the fan? Just thinking out loud here.

Best of luck with the new boiler!

Noah


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## denvershepherd

Floydian said:


> That is great, denvershepherd! Congrats.
> I've had a blast with my new system for the last few months now and appreciate the feeling. Enjoy!
> 
> As far as the smoke smell-It is pretty hard for me to imagine any smoke coming out of the door with the strong negative draft of the Garn's but I don't know the boiler. Any chance the cleanout ports need to be tightened down a little? Or the fan? Just thinking out loud here.
> 
> Best of luck with the new boiler!
> 
> Noah


 
Thanks!  I'm not sure.  I'm going to continue to watch it and see if I can figure out whats going on.  The fan is quite the beast the way it gets that fire going so I don't think its that.  Just growing pains with a new system I guess   You sound like you have a lot of the same stuff in your system as mine...Grundfos, Taco etc..  How did you do the in floor heat? 

Neil


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## Floydian

denvershepherd said:


> How did you do the in floor heat?


 
I did a tube and plate(lightweights) install above the subfloor with 3/8" flooring over the plates to help keep the supply temps down. Love the low temp radiant heat!

The link in my signature has more info and pics of my system.

Noah


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