# Vermont Castings Encore 2 in 1 ?



## emt1581 (Dec 24, 2010)

Well I had a real shock at the stove shop today.  I went in prepared to pay for my Avalon Arbor and was told that, due to the specs of the stove and my home, it wouldn't work.  It needs too much clearance and I don't have 9 or 10 foot ceilings.  Long story short, I'm going with the Vermont Castings Encore 2 in 1 wood stove.  

Seems to me that, aside from less clearance needed (on paper), they are pretty much the same.  Only major difference I see is that the Encore has a CAT option to make it more efficient.  

Anyone have one though?  Any thoughts on it good or bad?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2010)

New design for the Encore. You may be the first.


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## certified106 (Dec 24, 2010)

I have been waiting for someone to test a 2 in1...If you decide to get it I'll be anxious to hear your reviews. Have you ever had a cat stove before?


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## emt1581 (Dec 24, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> New design for the Encore. You may be the first.



I don't understand.    The CAT AND Non-CAT (2 in 1) is new?  If so sounds like I'm a bit of a guinea pig.

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Dec 24, 2010)

certified106 said:
			
		

> I have been waiting for someone to test a 2 in1...If you decide to get it I'll be anxious to hear your reviews. Have you ever had a cat stove before?



I grew up with an Osburn insert....and in the 90's I'm not sure if it was a CAT or not.  It was well explained to me and just sounds like a CAT needs more maintenance/cleaning to run well and efficiently.

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2010)

I'd recommend downloading some manuals for the stove choice(s) and read up on clearance and hearth requirements and operation.


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## pixelmountain (Dec 24, 2010)

We just finished installing this stove. I can't really give it a _full_ review yet since we've only used it for a few days. Also, the weather has been too warm to really put it through its paces. But so far it's good.

I did a few small break-in fires and maybe one or two smallish fires after that without the catalyst. Then I put the cat in and have been running it that way since. So far, so good. 

We need to learn the stove â€“ we've only had a 1970s Mountain Aire until now, which was a smoke dragon and was clunky in many ways. So we're basically having to relearn our wood burning skills. Which is fine, but it means it's hard to review this stove until we have more experience with it.

If anyone has any specific questions, I'm happy to try to answer them...


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## emt1581 (Dec 24, 2010)

pixelmountain said:
			
		

> We just finished installing this stove. I can't really give it a _full_ review yet since we've only used it for a few days. Also, the weather has been too warm to really put it through its paces. But so far it's good.
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> I did a few small break-in fires and maybe one or two smallish fires after that without the catalyst. Then I put the cat in and have been running it that way since. So far, so good.
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Hey thanks for chiming in! 

What are your thoughts on the ash pan with the lid/handle?  Seems like a cool idea but if your bucket is right there...a bit of a pain in the butt.  

Is the cat simple/easy to install or does it take some directions/skill?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## pixelmountain (Dec 24, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> What are your thoughts on the ash pan with the lid/handle?  Seems like a cool idea but if your bucket is right there...a bit of a pain in the butt.



I thought I was going to love the removable ash pan, but then realized that since I'm in the camp that believes in keeping a good ash bed rather than removing ash as soon it accumulates, I probably will only use it at the end of the burning season. So I'm pretty much ignoring that feature. ;-) 

And yes, I agree that having your ash bucket right there seems simpler than putting a lid on the removable ash pan and taking that outside. But there may be circumstances or certain kinds of usage where that's handy. It might just depend on each person's habits and preferences.



> Is the cat simple/easy to install or does it take some directions/skill?



It's incredibly easy. You just set the catalyst in its compartment in the refractory chamber. There are two pieces of refractory material (an "inner cover" and an "access cover") that need to be placed over it; they just set into their places, no special methods of attachment.

The manual, which is here â€“ http://literature.mhsc.com/vermont_castings/manuals/30005295_Encore_2N1_2.pdf â€“ shows this on page 20. (Well, actually, they're showing how to remove the catalyst, but of course putting it in is just the reverse.) It's as simple as they make it look.


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## Renovation (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks for the report, PixelMountain!

Having a cat option sounds very cool, if it works well.  Please tell us what you find, like if it burns differently and longer with the cat, etc.


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## webby3650 (Dec 25, 2010)

pixelmountain said:
			
		

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I have been kinda alarmed by the way the refractory panels just sit around the cat, seems very unstable and vulnerable to breakage tome.


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## pixelmountain (Dec 25, 2010)

webby3650 said:
			
		

> I have been kinda alarmed by the way the refractory panels just sit around the cat, seems very unstable and vulnerable to breakage tome.



I know what you mean. That was my initial feeling. But after taking it apart and putting it back together a few times, I think it's fine. The outer piece has a little notch to hold it in place. I think it would take an unusual impact to knock it out of place. And I kind of like the simplicity of it all.

If it broke in normal usage I know I'd be on the phone fast demanding a warranty replacement. ;-) But I don't think it's likely, really.


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## emt1581 (Dec 25, 2010)

pixelmountain said:
			
		

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Yeah, honestly, I'm not liking that ash pan.  I'd much rather the Avalon one with the built in handle.  Maybe I can rig something similar on the VC...

As far as the CAT...I think I'll give it at try.  Worse comes to worse...I pull it out and still have a 75%+ efficiency stove.  But since I get REALLY dry wood, I'm thinking I might as well take advantage of the CAT.

Thanks for the feedback!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Dec 25, 2010)

Ceiling clearance issues???   Is the stove going into an alcove or something? You can check the clearance req's in the Avalon manual, which is probably available online.


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## emt1581 (Dec 25, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Ceiling clearance issues???   Is the stove going into an alcove or something? You can check the clearance req's in the Avalon manual, which is probably available online.



We did that at the stove shop.  

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Dec 25, 2010)

Never hurts to double check, in the actual room, with a tape measure.


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## raybonz (Dec 25, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Cat stoves are not a maintenance problem.. I have had this one for decades and I can access the cat without tools and the only maintenance is to use a  vacuum with a brush attachment to clean and that takes 2 minutes a couple times a year.. Personally I like how cat stoves operate and plan on staying with cat stoves.. I am sure others will chime in on this one..

Ray


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## emt1581 (Dec 25, 2010)

raybonz said:
			
		

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Good to see.  I've heard a LOT complain about them and the guy at the shop said they need to be replaced ONLY if you don't do your part in keeping it clean/functioning.  

-Emt1581


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## raybonz (Dec 25, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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The cat stoves work well over a wide range of temps and the cats last me 6 years + as a rule.. How much wood you burn and how hot you run determine longevity unless you let the flames hit the cat directly which will crack the ceramic cats.. It is also important to use dry seasoned wood.. Backwoods Savage aka Dennis was unsure of cats like you are and loves them now.. Secondary burn stoves are also popular and have their following as well.. Once you know how to run a cat stove they are easy to use... 

Ray


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## nekit (Dec 27, 2010)

I've had the Encore 2 in 1 for a little over a week now and so far so good.  It replaced a 20 year old Defient Encore Cat stove 0028.

Compared to the old Encore it seems a little easier to control the heat.  The Cat is super easy to remove and clean.  The cat is thinner top to bottom compared to the old cat, probably doesn't need as much cat with the air injection too.  It seems to run steadier with the cat in, than with just the air injection.

Just added then fan kit a couple days ago and like the way the heat is distributed with that.

The only down side so far is the windows get dirty much easier than my old Encore.  Must have to do with the air flow pattern.


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## BigE8817 (Dec 30, 2010)

Joining late on this one.  I just bought the 2 in 1 Encore to replace my old Timberline stove.   I have been using it for about 2 weeks now and I love it.  I also got the blower kit and it really kicks out some nice heat.  I really didn't like the "fall away" door handle and I found out that I could just unscrew the handle from the stub and screw it directly into the door latch.  The CAT seems like a good design but this is my first one.  The manual says to change to non-cat mode to load the stove so when you do that the CAT is protected by the cover. The ash pan is a little small but easy to empty. My stove came with a 6" round flue collar (different from how the manual showed it) so I had to order the oval to 8" round flue collar to fit my 8" chimney. Definately a nicer looking stove for my living room.


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## Renovation (Dec 30, 2010)

Nice to hear such enthusiastic early reports.  The more great stoves on the market the better, IMO.  I hope you continue to report.  Happy burning!


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## nekit (Dec 31, 2010)

Quote
"Hello, Nekit, i am very interested in the new encore, i also burned a cat encore from early nintys and had some backpuffing problems, i would appreciate any info you could provide using this stove. my old encore was vented into a 6 inch flu, it really needed a 8 inch. i see this stove is designed for 6 inch. any tips you can provide would be huge, Thanks Marty"

My old Encore had the backpuffing too, it common in those when you have the fire really going and hen shut down the air too much and the fire starves for air.  Haven't had this happen with the new 2 in 1 so far and I've had the air turned down almost all the way.  I think with the air injection on the 2 in 1 it always feeds it some air and keeps this from happening.  This is just my theory and maybe I just haven't had the right settings to make the backpuff happen yet.  So far the only downside I've seen with the 2 in 1 so far is the windows smoke up almost instantly.

Oh and FYI I've run 6" flue on both my old and new Encore.

Rob


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## engineroom (Jan 3, 2011)

I have been using the new VC Encore 2 in 1 for about 5 weeks. I am new to wood stoves so I do not have much of a frame of reference or past experience for comparison.  I can tell you the stove lights super easily and retains a fire with ease even on the lowest setting. It burns the wood to to an ultra fine powdered ash every burn. I have been getting between 6 and 10 hour burn times (at low damper settings) based on the type and amount of wood I load. I am heating a 1200 square foot house with it and it seems to be freight train when it comes to heat output. It is not uncommon for me to open the windows in my house a little at times to cool the place down. Visually it is a beautiful stove. I am worried though about future maintenance based on a number of posts regarding the complexity of this stove's design.

There is one serious problems though. The newly designed removable refractory cover plate at the rear of the firebox breaks like a thin sheet of glass. (has the sea shell design cast into it) Two of them have broken in my new stove in the last 3 weeks. My dealer was very nice about it and gave me one new plate under warranty. I have not been back to attempt to get a SECOND replacement. I am sure he will be shaking his head when he sees me again. He told me that this is an issue with the new 2 in one stoves. Personally I find it a little embarrassing and very annoying. Hopefully VC is already working on a solution in the form of a stout new replacement piece. Lets hope.

Enjoy and stay warm and if you come across oak leave it for me please. Ill let you have some ash.

UPDATE:

My local VC dealer replaced my broken seashell refractory piece (the second one to break). I have been using the stove with the replacement piece for about 10 weeks or so with no problems. Because of the problems I have had I have been obsessively careful when loading the firebox with wood and when using any tools inside the stove. It cannot be stressed enough to a new user of these stoves to be careful when loading them. Never ever load the stove by tossing wood quickly into it, especially heavy pieces. Take a little extra time and always avoid the impulse to wedge in that last key piece of firewood in an attempt to get the stove really full. I did hear about another user who cracked a large section out of the large main refractory piece that occupies much of the back of the firebox. Fortunately VC warrantied that assembly as well and the stove is up an running again. When I asked him what had caused it he said it occurred when he attempted to wedge in one last piece of firewood using one of the fireplace tools. He said the snapping sound wasnt pretty.

My goal is not to bad mouth VC or their products. I would just like users of these new stoves to be careful and avoid some of the mistakes others are sometimes experiencing. I also hope that the company considers making some changes to their owners manual educating the customer about the refractory and to avoid shocking or flexing the material. Maybe they will even make some changes and add some additional support to the assembly. I guess time will tell.

Update Late April:
I have not had any more problems with the rear refractory plate cracking or breaking and I have burning the stove 24/7 for 3 months or so with the replacement part. I heard somewhere that some of the early plates were more prone to breaking than the newer ones. Does anyone know if this is true? And the stove performance? Its great.


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## Renovation (Jan 3, 2011)

engineroom said:
			
		

> I have been using the new VC Encore 2 in 1 for about 5 weeks.



Hey EngineRoom,

Thanks for the report, I'm always curious to hear how new stoves are working out.

I'm glad it's working well for you, except for that flimsy part--how they handle this might be a good test of the "new" VC.

Can you tell us what your chimney is like?  height? double or single-wall stove pipe?  Bends?  Etc?  It'll help to learn this stove's flue preferences.

Good luck and happy burning!


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## nekit (Jan 3, 2011)

engineroom said:
			
		

> I have been using the new VC Encore 2 in 1 for about 5 weeks. I am new to wood stoves so I do not have much of a frame of reference or past experience for comparison.  I can tell you the stove lights super easily and retains a fire with ease even on the lowest setting. It burns the wood to to an ultra fine powdered ash every burn. I have been getting between 6 and 10 hour burn times (at low damper settings) based on the type and amount of wood I load. I am heating a 1200 square foot house with it and it seems to be freight train when it comes to heat output. It is not uncommon for me to open the windows in my house a little at times to cool the place down. Visually it is a beautiful stove. I am worried though about future maintenance based on a number of posts regarding the complexity of this stove's design.
> 
> There is one serious problems though. The newly designed removable refractory cover plate at the rear of the firebox breaks like a thin sheet of glass. (has the sea shell design cast into it) Two of them have broken in my new stove in the last 3 weeks. My dealer was very nice about it and gave me one new plate under warranty. I have not been back to attempt to get a SECOND replacement. I am sure he will be shaking his head when he sees me again. He told me that this is an issue with the new 2 in one stoves. Personally I find it a little embarrassing and very annoying. Hopefully VC is already working on a solution in the form of a stout new replacement piece. Lets hope.
> 
> Enjoy and stay warm and if you see come across oak leave it for me please. Ill let you have some ash.



Engineroom just curious.  How did the rear cover plate break?  Was it dropped or just from heat cycling?  I have had the 2 in 1 for about 3 weeks now, so far mines holding up.


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## engineroom (Jan 4, 2011)

To answer your question directly, No I did not drop or mishandle the plate.

The refractory plate breaks when contacted lightly with wood as you load the stove. It breaks so easily that sometimes you dont even know its happened until you happen to look inside the firebox and either, see the crack, or sometimes the whole plate just falls out broken in two pieces as the fire burns down. 

The first piece that broke could not even be carefully set back into place, it would not hold its position. The second piece that broke broke at an angle where it could be carefully set in place so that it will stay in position. It does however now have a gap at the top and and an opening in the fracture area. With it set into place like this you are always worried that it will fall out again. Now I have to load the stove with extreme caution and worry that the damn thing is going to fall out of place.

I am predicting that I will probably end up having to fabricate some solution myself. Its hard for me to imagine a big corporation acting quickly on something like this. We shall see....


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## engineroom (Jan 4, 2011)

"Can you tell us what your chimney is like?  height? double or single-wall stove pipe?  Bends?  Etc?  Itâ€™ll help to learn this stoveâ€™s flue preferences."

Chimney I am using with the Encore 2 in 1 wood stove:
6 inch diameter Single wall black pipe (6 feet)
6 inch double wall insulted stainless pipe. (15 feet)
No bends/Straight run through interior (two levels) and out roof.

It is producing a very healthy draft. 
I do not have a vacuum reading but its healthy I can tell ya!!


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## pixelmountain (Jan 4, 2011)

engineroom said:
			
		

> The refractory plate breaks when contacted lightly with wood as you load the stove. It breaks so easily that sometimes you dont even know its happened until you happen to look inside the firebox and either, see the crack, or sometimes the whole plate just falls out broken in two pieces as the fire burns down.



Wow, I have to think your refractory pieces are different from mine. I was concerned about the same thing when I first took apart that refractory chamber, but there's no way mine would break _that_ easily. I've taken it apart a few times, to check the catalyst and just because I like to look around and make sure everything is as it should be. So I know it hasn't broken without me realizing it.

I'm not saying yours isn't that fragile, just that mine isn't.

Your report worries me about replacements. If I do manage to break mine, now I'm afraid I'll get a replacement as fragile as yours. :-(


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## nekit (Jan 5, 2011)

What's the build date of each of your stoves?  It in the lower corner on the back.  Mine is 08 Dec 2010.  Maybe we can figure out if it's a early/late build thing.  So far my rear cover is holding up fine.

Thanks


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## branchburner (Jan 5, 2011)

engineroom said:
			
		

> The second piece that broke broke at an angle where it could be carefully set in place so that it will stay in position. It does however now have a gap at the top and and an opening in the fracture area. With it set into place like this you are always worried that it will fall out again. Now I have to load the stove with extreme caution and worry that the damn thing is going to fall out of place.
> 
> I am predicting that I will probably end up having to fabricate some solution myself. Its hard for me to imagine a big corporation acting quickly on something like this. We shall see....



By all means let the dealer know - that will help VC know they have a problem, and help them fix it, if they are so inclined. You might try "gluing" the piece back together with furnace cement. Apply cement, clamp and set, then bake in the oven. I have had limited (= temporary) success doing that with a few refractory pieces in my stove.


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## Todd (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks for the reviews guys. It will be interesting to hear the differences between the cat and non cat mode. Got any pictures?


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## engineroom (Jan 5, 2011)

My dealer has notified VC a number of times. They have told me that they ordered another replacement for my broken panel. 
The company knows about the problem. 
I hope they decide to produce an upgraded part.


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## pixelmountain (Jan 5, 2011)

nekit said:
			
		

> What's the build date of each of your stoves?  It in the lower corner on the back.  Mine is 08 Dec 2010.  Maybe we can figure out if it's a early/late build thing.  So far my rear cover is holding up fine.



Ah, good idea. Mine says 28 Oct 2010.


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## Renovation (Jan 5, 2011)

engineroom said:
			
		

> "Can you tell us what your chimney is like?  height? double or single-wall stove pipe?  Bends?  Etc?  Itâ€™ll help to learn this stoveâ€™s flue preferences."
> 
> Chimney I am using with the Encore 2 in 1 wood stove:
> 6 inch diameter Single wall black pipe (6 feet)
> ...



Many thanks Engineroom!

That seems useful to know--it sounds to me like your flue is pretty much what manufacturers specify--neither weak nor exceptional.  Is it interior or exterior?


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## NinoVitale (Jan 6, 2011)

I live in Ohio and installed a 2in 1 about 6 weeks ago. I've burned a lot of wood in it. I came from a VC Intrepid, The small stove and it was a CAT stove. I have a 6 inch pipe, running straight up 12 feet, into an 8-6 to 8 inch converter that goes into the roof and out the top. I have a 'top hat' flew topper that rotates with the wind. These really help with stopping backdraft. I have about 4 years of experience with CAT stoves. First, the CAT is easy. Anyone who says it's hard, I don't understand that. The Encore 2 in 1 is 470 pounds of iron. You have to get some heat momentum going and it really takes about 40 minutes from a cold start BEFORE you can put it in CAT mode. If you do this any earlier, you will probably flame out or get smoke in the house. If the stove has any heat left, you can achive it in sometimes 10 minutes, from say a 200 degree temp reading from the iron behind the griddle. I never use griddle temp. The griddle could be 550 and the stove is only 200. For CAT stoves, I have to get a reading on the thick iron, not thin cast iron hit directly by flames. My procedure is as follows. Newspaper, wood bark and thin pieces of wood kindling to start the fire. Only non-color regular newspaper. Not the circulars from Kohls or Home Depot. They produce creosote and other junk. I do not clean out ALL The ash, I like about a 1/2 inch bed, even it it's cold as that will heat up and provide a nice base. Anything more, I push through the holes and into the swing out ash pan for removal. I cheat and slight crack and open the ash pan to let air in from the bottom. This creates a quick fire situation. I only do this for maybe 3-5 minutes. You can also crack the front door for a similiar but less effect. Once I am getting good flame, I put a few smaller logs and get those burning. Once I have stove temp of 400-650 for about 3o minutes, I load it up with heavy wood and let that go full air and non-CAT for 5 minutes, then I close the CAT up. Simply pull the handle on the left all the way forward. I then let that go for about 5 minutes, then if I want a 400-500 burn for a long time, I push the air control handle full closed. With harder wood, I'm getting 6-8 hours. With smaller or softer wood, you'll be lucky to get 4 hours. You need good thick pieces of wood with density and gerth to get a long overnight burn. I even burn some unsplit logs that are 6 inches-8 inches around occasionally and they burn fine as long as they are at least 1 year old. Some said they heard you have to turn the CAT off. You HAVE to turn the CAT off to load this stove. I don't know of a CAT stove that you can leave in CAT mode. The entire reason for CAT is to force air through a chamber and burn ash and smoke and gain efficiency. Also, the CAT will burn in the 1100-1400 range if you do it right, producing a HUGE amount of heat in the chamber. I"ve run CAT stoves with CAT temp probes and they run well around 1200. That's where they need to be to burn the smoke. I might install one tonight as I just love to play and see what going on. It's simple though, if the stove is hot, and needs wood, turn on the air full, then turn off the CAT (these are simply swinging two handles) then slowly open the griddle. I usually wait about 3 seconds before turning off the CAT and opening the griddle to get smoke running up the flew. Then load it, close the griddle, turn CAT mode back on, leave full air on for about 3-5 minutes, then choke it back. If the temp has dropped, I will leave the CAT off, crack the ash pan for about 2 minutes, close that, let it run open for 3-5 more, then close the cat, leave air full for 3-5 mintues, then choke it back. This way, I get max heat, but don't want to burn the wood up too quickly. The faster you can get it in CAT mode, the better, but if you put it there too fast, your CAT won't burn the ash and smoke and you actually loose heat. There's a sweet spot there. In comparing the Intrepid 2 to the Encore 2 in 1, I like them both. I would never own a non-cat stove. I would burn way to much wood. I can go 6-8 hours at 450 on 6 good size pieces. In non CAT mode, with the same 6, I would get 2 hours, both chocked back. CAT mode is just that much more efficient. Someone mentioned the front panel with the flower breaking. I guess if you are slamming wood in and you have an item that is at high temp, you are likely to break anything. Mine is thick and I only let wood hit the cast iron bottom. I wear long gloves that go to my elbows and manage the install of wood all the way down. My gloves are fire proof and I put the logs where I want them, never letting them hit the glass in front of the back plate. I anticipate no problems with broken plates. I ahve burned at least 350 hours on my encore 2 in 1 already without problems. I definetly had some learning to do. My biggest complaint was I wanted 6-8 hours of burn time. I was using too small and too soft a log. I also installed a return air vent behind my stove, put a magnetic vinyl cover and a 6 inch round duct receiver, I then put a dryer vent over that, painted all this nice shiny black to keep the wife happy, and have it sitting on the flue collar. I'm drawing 160 degree air back to the return plenum of my house and my geothermal hardly ever runs. I am heating a 6000 square foot house this way with temps around 20 outside. I will say though I built the place 3 years ago and did spray foam insulation which is worth every penny. Takes very little to heat the 6000 square, no drafts, no vented softits. I live in a foam cooler. I also have an airi to air exchanger running 24/7 in the winter. I really went nuts with my HVAC. And I have a fan cycler going so even if the heat is not on, my house fan turns on, churns the heat from the stove and blows it around and shuts off, regardless if the thermostat calls for heat. It's a complicated system, but my bills are less than $250 for 8000 square total. I have other spaces above garage not on the HVAC.


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## nekit (Jan 6, 2011)

NiÃ±oUrbana
Thanks for the write up. I burn my 2 in 1 very similarly, but can't turn the air all the way down without smoking out the windows pretty heavily. Do you find this to happen with yours?  Maybe it's my wood. How often do you have to clean your glass?
Thanks


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## NinoVitale (Jan 7, 2011)

In terms of the windows fogging, I don't have this problem but sometimes do, ha, that makes no sense. When I have the problem, it is due to what I did, IE, my wood made it past the circular /stops/posts that hold the wood away from the glass or falling out if you operate with the spark screen. (can't recall what they are called) There are two types of smoke that I see, white and black. Black is caused by fire hitting the glass directly when it is not very hot, IE, wood touching the glass. White is a normal build up that, if you don't clean the glass, just happens, although if I haven't gotten any black, the white usually wisks itself away based on the air control. If you are getting smoke, you may be choking back the air too early in the process. that's what I was told by someone else at the VC dealer. What I've noticed is its all about temp. If the temp is too low, you get smoked glass. I have my temp gauge sitting behind the griddle dead center. This is pretty thick and a lot of the heat when not in CAT mode, goes up the chimney. I don't chock it back until it's around 450 plus. If it's really cold, like last night, I wait until it's around 650 to choke it back and run it really hot. Honestly though, I rarely run my stove in NON CAT mode. It's more efficient and uses less wood and there's really no good reason to chop and haul more wood if I get the heat I need out of 6 logs instead of 12 or 18. The down side of CAT is that you don't get the nice flames, you get a single flame somewhere, that you usually can't see at best and a red glow. CAT mode is more of a smoldering then a fire burn. I have also noticed that if i don't routinely clean the glass, almost as much as I change the ash, daily, that itfogs up more quickly. I simply take paper towels drenched in water, wait until it's cooled down to 200 or so, open the doors, CAT off of course, leave them open for another few minutes to really cool them down, then wipe them several times while turning the rag. I never use chemicals or glass cleaner as these will glaze the glass permanently because of the heat and chemical reaction. Sometimes, if they are really dirty, I may need a few cleanings and rag turnings but they come very clean after this. this will take off the black and white. The black is harder to get off and takes a bit of elbow grease but will come. The way VC designs their air flow, the air should sweep by the glass and keep it fairly clean. Again though, if I choke mine back before 450, it will fog up. Try higher heat and keeping the logs back from the glass and see if that helps. OH, if the ash builds up in the front and you get flames from the ash hitting the glass, this will fog it too. I sweep the ash back from the front, and also forward from under the refractory plate (with the shell where the CAT air must go) this seems to allow the stove to breath well. Also, keep in mind, the glass really is for us and not for the stove operation. If those were cast iron doors, it would be a bit more efficient in CAT mode, but it sure does look nicer with flames dancing in the clean glass. I like it clean too!


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## NinoVitale (Jan 7, 2011)

Purchased and installed a CAT temperature monitor last night. Wow did I learn a lot about what's going on in that chamber. Fairly easy install. Simply pry the metal circle button off the back fo the stove and push the probe through the heat shield (already has a hole) through the iron, through a small insulation cover (had to add a little pressure there) and I was in. The probe and gauge were $100. Runs on 9 volt. You push the button and the temp displays for about 15 minutes. Here's what I have learned just last night for the Encore 2 in 1 VC. I keep my stove temp gauge center and directly back from the griddle on the iron, not on the griddle, just in front of the flew. I got it to about 500 in non CAT mode. The CAT probe read 550. You aren't suppose to close the damper and got to CAT mode unless the CAT chamber temp is 500. I swung the handle, air full open and the within 2 minutes it went from 550 to 1200 in the chamber. The stove temp was still around 500. I kept it there and it hovered at 1300. This is a great temp to burn ash and smoke and put out a bunch of heat in CAT mode. Each time I turn CAT off to open the damper and load, the temp in the CAT would drop like a brick. usually down to 750 within 1 minute. But as soon as I close the damper it would rocket back up. This makes sense because all the exhaust is venting through the back of the refectory plate and into the CAT combustion chamber so the stove is pushing all the heat. I can even see a little flame behind the refectory plate through a small line there. the CAT chamber is behind that where you would not want flames. I don't think with the Encore 2 in 1 you could ever get flames in that chamber with the way it is double chambered. Anyway, it's teaching me a lot about what's going on. When I am in CAT mode and choke the air fully, the stove temp will hover around 500 and the CAT chamber probe reads 1100-1200. Need to be over 1000 for the CAT to burn efficiently. So all these numbers seem to do well. I wanted to see how high I could get it so I opened the air full up and got the stove to red line, 650, and the probe read 1300. I have yet to get it over that. 1700 is absolute max for the CAT from most reading I've done says it will damage the honeycomb structure. The stove will likely be cool when I get home, I'm going to clean the ash out (mostly, I always leave a little in, clean the glass and I may pull the CAT and lightly vacuum it, to get any ash off and then fire it again. If there is ash build up, this may be why I can't get it past 1300. Not that 1300 is bad, but 1500 would be better and produce more heat. I really want to tweak this thing down and get the exact procedure for most heat, long burn time. Of course, the big variable is the fuel. I try to burn dense and large logs, but I do have small ones mixed in. They still burn well in CAT mode those. Even 4 little logs will go 3 hours in CAT mode. More later if anyone is interested.


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## nekit (Jan 7, 2011)

Get info keep it coming.
Thanks


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## NinoVitale (Jan 7, 2011)

Pictures of my stove, piping and return system are located here. http://files.jwp-inc.com/Stove/


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## jetmech (Jan 7, 2011)

i have the same temp probe in my intrepid II... my cat temps are very close to yours. i have had my cat at 1500 to 1600 before but it usually cools down quickly as secondary air flap closes, i have found mine to be responsive to primary air, cooler i run the stove cooler the cat runs.. this morning before work stove top was 600 cat was 1100 normal cruise temps... nice photos of your stove.. i am kicking around getting one of these, trying to crunch the numbers...


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## NinoVitale (Jan 7, 2011)

I sold my Intrepid II. Ebay and Craig's List proved very helpful. Got $1100 for it after 2.5 years of use. then bought the Encore and got $250 in rebates plus 30% back from our already broke Uncle Sam in the form of a tax credit. Actually, I haven't written it off yet as I haven't done my taxes for 2010 but I think $900 is coming off the itemized side just for this purpose. My total out of pocket for the upgrade was $500 and it was worth it. I didn't use it nearly as much as the Encore. What is great is I can cut longer pieces and split less. The larger firebox is great. I'm wondering if I should have gone for the monster size.  (Defiant) I have a neighbor who has it and it is bigger still. Not much more iron though, it weights 521 and the Encore weighs 471. So really, it's not a matter of heat output, but a matter of firebox size. I think he can get 8 good sized logs where I get 6. Those 2 extra logs could probably push me to 8-10 hours. I am disapointed in the burn times. They rank it 10 hours but if you have great, dense, thick wood and an already hot stove, and pack it tight, I get 6 hours at 450 max, then the temp falls off. Can't seem to do any better. I don't think the probe will help me any, just keep the wife from putting it in CAT mode before its hot enough and  satisfies my curiosity as a tech guy and overal weirdo for wanting to know as much as I can with hard measurable knowledge. I'm trying to work through my faults. Lifetime journey!


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## nekit (Jan 8, 2011)

NinaUrbana
Do you turn you air all the way down against the stop, after you get it burning for a long burn?  If I try this on my stove it completely chokes off all the air and starts to back puff.  Even when it is burning well with a stove top temp of 550, if I go that low it chokes it off.  Maybe my flapper shuts down more than yours?

Just curious if I'm doing something wrong.


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## Gark (Jan 8, 2011)

QUOTE:
I thought I was going to love the removable ash pan, but then realized that since I'm in the camp that believes in keeping a good ash bed rather than removing ash as soon it accumulates, I probably will only use it at the end of the burning season. So I'm pretty much ignoring that feature.  
END QUOTE

I haven't studied the new 2-in-1 yet, but its predecessor the Encore (cat) has two 1/4" hidden holes by the front legs. These holes have no flow regulation and introduce air into the ashpan chamber and help burn the coal bed from below. If your new 2-in-1 has these holes and you let the pan chamber fill with ashes, the burn dynamic definitely changes in the firebox. I've burned both ways (pan stuffed vs. empty) and prefer the extra air from below.

And someday I hope to learn how to use the site's quote feature....


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Jan 8, 2011)

There is no need to leave an ash bed in these stoves. That's why the grate/ash system is 
there.

We have had our display Defiant 2n1 burning since October here in our store. My only 
criticizism is that the airwash effectiveness is not consistant and that the 14hour burn 
time is bit optimistic.

We have sold over 25 Encore 2n1's and at least a dozen Defiant 2n1's this season. No 
complaints so far. Only 2 broken refactory covers as well.


Here is our display Bordeaux Defiant 2n1 (looks like Majolica Brown while hot)







The below pictures of a friend's brand new Bordeaux Encore 2n1


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## VCBurner (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for the great pictures Clarks!  I have to say I was excited to see VC come out with a hybrid and put something new on the stove scene.  I absolutely love the look of the Defiant and Encore.  The reliability and looks of the old VC products is what made this company.  The great appearance of the stoves and brand recognition still play a role in this company today. Beautifull stoves!!

    Last year, while looking for a used, attractive EPA stove, I was faced with a choice between, a Defiant Encore Cat, and a Dutchwest Large Cat.  Some people thought I was stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I found, through a lot of research,  the Deffiant Encore had a major downfall: a weak and expensive to replace refractory housing.  The same refractory part was used on some other stoves they put out, such as the Winterwarm insert.  I chose the Dutchwest largely because of this. It is puzzling to me that they did not learn from the past with this new line.  The lack of accountability that VC still shows and their poor customer service is also scarry for people who are aware of the issue.  As a happy operator of a durable VC Dutchwest I hope, for their sake, they change their way of thinking.  



> There is one serious problems though. The newly designed removable refractory cover plate at the rear of the firebox breaks like a thin sheet of glass. (has the sea shell design cast into it) Two of them have broken in my new stove in the last 3 weeks. My dealer was very nice about it and gave me one new plate under warranty. I have not been back to attempt to get a SECOND replacement. I am sure he will be shaking his head when he sees me again. He told me that this is an issue with the new 2 in one stoves. Personally I find it a little embarrassing and very annoying. Hopefully VC is already working on a solution in the form of a stout new replacement piece. Lets hope.


It is disappointing to see them use another weak refractory part inside a firebox.  In my opinion all parts inside a firebox should be able to withstand punishment from falling logs and loading abuse. I beat my stove while loading it sometimes, trying to stuff the firebox for long burns.  Good luck with this and keep us posted.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Jan 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Thanks for the great pictures Clarks!  I have to say I was excited to see VC come out with a hybrid and put something new on the stove scene.  I absolutely love the look of the Defiant and Encore.  The reliability and looks of the old VC products is what made this company.  The great appearance of the stoves and brand recognition still play a role in this company today. Beautifull stoves!!
> 
> Last year, while looking for a used, attractive EPA stove, I was faced with a choice between, a Defiant Encore Cat, and a Dutchwest Large Cat.  Some people thought I was stuck between a rock and a hard place.
> I found, through a lot of research,  the Deffiant Encore had a major downfall: a weak and expensive to replace refractory housing.  The same refractory part was used on some other stoves they put out, such as the Winterwarm insert.  I chose the Dutchwest largely because of this. It is puzzling to me that they did not learn from the past with this new line.  The lack of accountability that VC still shows and their poor customer service is also scarry for people who are aware of the issue.  As a happy operator of a durable VC Dutchwest I hope, for their sake, they change their way of thinking.
> ...




I hear what you're saying in regards to them learning from their mistakes. There are still many things they need to work on. So many of their products are designed without any regard for ease of installation or longevity of certain parts.

With that said, they have made MAJOR improvements in their manufacturing and quality control processes. I visited the factory over the summer which is when they introduced the 2n1 system. The production manager held a seminar specificly on the 2n1 system....

These new refractory materials are very much improved (I met the guys who make them, lol). It's a completely new recipe and curing process (something about higher silicone content). It's also nice that they added the cast iron lip inside the flue collar to prevent chimney brushes from smashing the refractory.

The assembly plant in Randolph, VT was in great shape. Their new plant manager is from Ethan Allen. They have done an amazing job at leaning out their inventory and processes compared to the CFM days. The remaining employees seem to be very happy and they are all cross-trained. They get rotated from different positions on the assembly line. Everyone, at the assembly plant and the foundry, appeared to be extremely enthuastic about the products they are helping to produce.


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## branchburner (Jan 8, 2011)

Clarks, I am curious about running this stove as a non-cat. Is it essentially the same downdraft technology as the previous Everburn, but with a more solid refractory? Have you, or any of your customers, opted to run the stove without the combustor in place?


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Jan 8, 2011)

branchburner said:
			
		

> Clarks, I am curious about running this stove as a non-cat. Is it essentially the same downdraft technology as the previous Everburn, but with a more solid refractory? Have you, or any of your customers, opted to run the stove without the combustor in place?



Yes,

In fact we are running it right now without the cat (the picture above was from this morning without the cat). You will see a bit higher flue temps without the cat (hence, the lower efficiency) and a little livelier flame action. Very happy with the stove in both setups.

-Jay Clark


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## VCBurner (Jan 8, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> I hear what you're saying in regards to them learning from their mistakes. There are still many things they need to work on. So many of their products are designed without any regard for ease of installation or longevity of certain parts.
> 
> With that said, they have made MAJOR improvements in their manufacturing and quality control processes. I visited the factory over the summer which is when they introduced the 2n1 system. The production manager held a seminar specificly on the 2n1 system....
> 
> ...



Hey Jay,
Thanks for replying.
It is nice to know that they are trying to improve the product, and assembly process.  It makes a huge difference if the employees are happy to be there and believe in the product!  

Sounds like you have a fun job.  I'd love to visit one of these factories!


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Jan 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Clarks ACE Hardware said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree, that is clearly a major key to success.... your employees MUST like what they do.

I think you guys would also find it interesting that VC is now doing all of Jotul's north american castings in Vermont. We also came across some FPI/hampton castings being done as well as Harman. The production manager mentioned they recently shifted a lot of production back to Vermont from China.

Even the $650 Windsor 244's (old century 244) plated steel stoves are entirely made in VT. It was certainly a breath of fresh air.


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## VCBurner (Jan 8, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> I think you guys would also find it interesting that VC is now doing all of Jotul's north american castings in Vermont. We also came across some FPI/hampton castings being done as well as Harman. The production manager mentioned they recently shifted a lot of production back to Vermont from China.
> 
> Even the $650 Windsor 244's (old century 244) plated steel stoves are entirely made in VT. It was certainly a breath of fresh air.


Wow Jay!  Keep the good information coming!!

Now that's what we need in this country!  Let's bring back the jobs and go back to the days when things were made here.  Now if we could only come up with a renewable locally produced fuel source... Oh, wait aren't wood, bio diesel and alcohol renewable sources?   Someone tell the government we stumbled on to something?!  I forgot they already know.  

Sorry, I got sidetracked.  So, they are fully using the old plant again, which I imagine was how it was back in the 70's and early 80's.  The fuel embargo and gas shortages created a monster that couldn't be supported after oil prices went down, but they are reviving it, up there in Vermont!  Good news not only for Vermont and VC, but for the rest of the country.  Now more manufacturers need to follow suit.  *Awesome!*


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## NinoVitale (Jan 10, 2011)

nekit, I do push my air back all the way until it can travel no further. Mine stove will not back puff. I beleive the stove is set so that you can choke it all the way back and there is enough air getting in through the alternate air vent that we can't control, to keep a fire burning. Just last night, I had burned down to a hot ash bed. I took a small log, and ground down the ashes that could push throught the holes to the ash pan so the ash bed didn't get too deep. My stove temp was 350 and my probe was reading 500-550 which is on the very cool side in the CAT chamber, but sometimes expected on a 2 in 1. I loaded two smaller lighter logs in the bottom, then the big heavies, include a 10 inch round unsplit as an experiment to see how it would burn, so, my stove was already hot and my ash bed was really hot. I closed up the griddle, I never open the front door when I'm loading as sometimes, a log will jam the doors, but I still try and carefully load, by hand, with long gloves. I pack it like a puzzle with light pieces at the bottom, monster heavy in the middle to the top and often slide smaller ones into the sides and air pockets if there are any. I also use 18-20 inch logs and stand a few up on the side. Okay, so, now it's loaded, griddle is closed, I either crack the door or open the ash pan just a bit to infuse air, oh, CAT is open and air control full open (forward) Once I have a flame, I close the ash pan or door, which took about 20 seconds. I then burn it in non CAT full air, all doors closed to make sure the wood really catches flame. Once it looks good, I close the CAT and wait another 5 mintues to make sure the flames are good and strong after closing it up. After 5-10 minutes, I push the air all the way back and go to bed. I actually did a few things, came back 25 mintues later and the stove had gone from 350 to 500 so I knew I had a good flame on. That's what I think it should do when you close it up. The secondary burn chamber should burn hot and the CAT chamber was reading 1400. I got up at 530am (it was 940 when I closed it all up) and although I only had hot chuncks of read left, no real logs, it was still at 450 after over 7.5 hours. I didn't get it totally hard core packed, but I knew I only had to go 7-8 hours last night before I would be up. Maybe let it burn a bit longer before you close the CAT, then let it burn with full air in CAT mode for 5-10, then choke it back. Also, if you stove is cold, then these times are not relevant and things will take longer. The encore is 471 pounds of iron, it takes a while to heat it up. We are having teens to single digits at  night so mine never really gets below 350 before we load and fire it again. It's running 24/7 right now. Lots of ash.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm going to test runing my Encore without the CAT at some point, but a non CAT stove with a 2nd burn chamber is 80% efficient, a 2 in 1 is 86% so why would you run it without the CAT in place. the second burn chamber is likely going to burn most of the gasses and smoke and the CAT will do much less work so the CAT converter should last a long long time. I'm guessing here as I've only had a 2 in 1 for 8 weeks or so but the theory behind the 2 in 1 is you get the best of both worlds. I was told by the dealer that the reason I'm seeing cooler burn temps in my CAT chamber is because the 2 in 1 burns a lot in the 2nd before it ever hits the CAT chamber. That seems to make sense. The only reason to not use the CAT is because you want dancing flames. At night, when I want 500 degrees and 7 hours of burn time, the only way to go is CAT mode it would seem. Noone I know with a NON CAT stove gets times like that. The wood just burns too hot too fast, even with good air control. Plus if you can get 1000 plus degrees, you are really squeezing blood from a rock no?


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## NinoVitale (Jan 10, 2011)

Someone said they don't clean their ash pan. This is impossible. Within 2-3 day of running my stove 24/7, I would have 8-10 inches of ash and slowly run out of room for logs. If the stove is hot, I leave very little ash in the pan or the bottom of the stove, just enough, if it's hot, to reignite. If the stove is cold, I clear it clear out and start over with kindling and off I go, but I clean my stove ash pan every single day. The design is the best I've seen, but I don't empty this in the house. I have a metal can in the garage so I can empty it when it's burning hot , which often happens when you run 24/7. I slide the cover on, carry it out with my stove gloves, pop my can out the garage door (outside) empty the ash into the can, let the ash blow away, then put the can back in the garage and put the ash pan back in empty. I'm not sure what other way to do it. If you let the ash build up, within 4 or 5 days, you'd have no room for logs?


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## NinoVitale (Jan 10, 2011)

Thought I'd share one more story. This is not really what anyone would recommend, but I'm having GREAT success and I know others who did something a little less elaborate. As some of you know, I have a dryer vent (non-combustable, leaning up against my flew color about 2 inches above the stove. I measure 160 air. I thought, if I could get some of that in my main return plenunm, I could blow it around the house. I do not have an open floor plan. So I cut a hole in the floor behind the stove (pictures at the link I provided) This weekend, I decided to use R6 insulated flex all the way back to my return plenum. I have an 80 foot run and cut a hole in about 6-8 inchs above the filter. I put an inline fan at about the 50 foot mark and wired it up so it runs 24/7 when the stove is on. Uses about $5 of juice per quarter of electric. This keeps my return plenum warm. My air cycler is set to turn the fan on every 15 minutes if there is no call for heat. This is blowing this 100 degree air around the house. My geothermal air is only 88 degrees (which is normal for geothermal) they run long and cool to provide even, less dry heat and use no fossil fuel as you may know. My geo is coming on much less now with this 100 degree air hitting the return. Plus, my metal in my return plenum is always warm, helping to warm the air being pulled by other return vents. To me, this is all bonus heat capture and saving the geothermal from running, which is no fossil fuel, but does run off a 60 amp breaker. I can take pictures of the rig but it seems to work very well. I notice my fan cycler turning on more than the geothermal now.


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## pixelmountain (Jan 10, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> Someone said they don't clean their ash pan. This is impossible. Within 2-3 day of running my stove 24/7, I would have 8-10 inches of ash and slowly run out of room for logs



That was me, although I've changed that practice. But no, it's not impossible. I was referring to the pan underneath the stove, i.e. the swing-out, removable pan that collects the ashes. I was letting ashes build up in that pan, up to the grate above it and then an inch or so above that.

Regardless, I am now emptying the ash pan, so the whole thing is moot.


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## webby3650 (Jan 11, 2011)

I have been kinda alarmed by the way the refractory panels just sit around the cat, seems very unstable and vulnerable to breakage to me.[/quote]


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## nekit (Jan 13, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> nekit, I do push my air back all the way until it can travel no further. Mine stove will not back puff. I beleive the stove is set so that you can choke it all the way back and there is enough air getting in through the alternate air vent that we can't control, to keep a fire burning. Just last night, I had burned down to a hot ash bed. I took a small log, and ground down the ashes that could push throught the holes to the ash pan so the ash bed didn't get too deep. My stove temp was 350 and my probe was reading 500-550 which is on the very cool side in the CAT chamber, but sometimes expected on a 2 in 1. I loaded two smaller lighter logs in the bottom, then the big heavies, include a 10 inch round unsplit as an experiment to see how it would burn, so, my stove was already hot and my ash bed was really hot. I closed up the griddle, I never open the front door when I'm loading as sometimes, a log will jam the doors, but I still try and carefully load, by hand, with long gloves. I pack it like a puzzle with light pieces at the bottom, monster heavy in the middle to the top and often slide smaller ones into the sides and air pockets if there are any. I also use 18-20 inch logs and stand a few up on the side. Okay, so, now it's loaded, griddle is closed, I either crack the door or open the ash pan just a bit to infuse air, oh, CAT is open and air control full open (forward) Once I have a flame, I close the ash pan or door, which took about 20 seconds. I then burn it in non CAT full air, all doors closed to make sure the wood really catches flame. Once it looks good, I close the CAT and wait another 5 mintues to make sure the flames are good and strong after closing it up. After 5-10 minutes, I push the air all the way back and go to bed. I actually did a few things, came back 25 mintues later and the stove had gone from 350 to 500 so I knew I had a good flame on. That's what I think it should do when you close it up. The secondary burn chamber should burn hot and the CAT chamber was reading 1400. I got up at 530am (it was 940 when I closed it all up) and although I only had hot chuncks of read left, no real logs, it was still at 450 after over 7.5 hours. I didn't get it totally hard core packed, but I knew I only had to go 7-8 hours last night before I would be up. Maybe let it burn a bit longer before you close the CAT, then let it burn with full air in CAT mode for 5-10, then choke it back. Also, if you stove is cold, then these times are not relevant and things will take longer. The encore is 471 pounds of iron, it takes a while to heat it up. We are having teens to single digits at  night so mine never really gets below 350 before we load and fire it again. It's running 24/7 right now. Lots of ash.



Yes once I got the fire burning well I was able to turn the air all the way down and had no back puffing.  Thanks


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## harv115 (Jan 15, 2011)

I have been running a new Encore 2N1 for the last month.  The stove is a vast improvement over the prior non 2N1 version.  The refractory is no longer built of a delicate styrofoam and is now composed of a much harder firebrick type material.  The catalyst is half the size of the older one and that translates to half the cost to replace. I have been told it runs about $100.  Also, I would never by a non-cat stove as once fire is built and the stove temp is about 450 you can begin catalytic operation.  In catalytic mode I have been averaging about one piece of dry split wood per hour with the air intake turned down about one third of the way.  Of course if nice flames are wanted and a bit of a shorter burn you can very easily remove the catalyst and turn the stove into secondary burn operation. 

I am extremely happy with my $2400 purchase and highly recommend this stove.  My chimney is a 25 foot exterior brick chimney without a steel liner.  I am using the 8" flue kit venting directly from the back of the stove into the chimney.  I do not think the back firebox plate is fragile and have not experienced breakage issues.  Of course I am careful not to drop wood into the firebox for fear of breaking it or the door glass.  I can keep a constant 500-550 temperature all day and add wood at the rate of one piece per hour.  The glass door on this stove stays relatively clear through my burns but will smoke up during the cool down period in catalytic mode.  It also helps to get your fire up to temperature as fast as possible.

I have easily achieved 10 hour burns but not the 14 hour advertised burn times.   I have also not yet achieved overnight burns but I am still getting used to the stove and believe it is more of a user issue.  Very, very nice stove and it pumps out some serious heat into my 2,300 sq foot cape.  My prior stove was a Encore CAT non-2N1 stove.  This new 2N1 stove is tougher and more flexible than the prior version, but performs similarly.  I give it 4.5 thumbs up out of 5 as I feel there is always room for improvement.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 19, 2011)

If anyone is intersted in seeing what the 2 in 1 looks like, I took pictures and posted on http://files.jwp-inc.com/Stove/ and you will see the plate, 2nd burn chamber, CAT chamber and where the CAT probe enters. Finally had enough of a warm up to shut it down. I think we burned for 8 days straight and by the looks of -5 weather at night coming to Central Ohio again, we'll be firing her up tonight. Enjoy.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 19, 2011)

WSForever said:
			
		

> The refractory is no longer built of a delicate styrofoam and is now composed of a much harder firebrick type material.  The catalyst is half the size of the older one and that translates to half the cost to replace. I have been told it runs about $100.




This greatly interests me. Are you telling me the refractory assembly has been completely redone? How long will the assembly last and what are the replacement costs? This is a huge sticking point for me. If they have corrected this issue than a new VC could be in my future when I replace the Vigilant in a few years. Previously the maintenance costs on a large VC cat stove could have run you as much as $900 every few years. What are the current maintenance costs?


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## harv115 (Jan 19, 2011)

Yes, the refractory assembly is completely different.  The refractory on my old VC Encore burned through and they quoted me $1,100 for a replacement including the rebuild that would be needed.  The only reason I got the newer Encore is because I did not want to have to spend the money to replace a fragile styrofoam refractory and rebuild a ten year old stove.  The new refractory is exposed, and not located behind a cast plate as in the old version of the stove.  It seems to be made out of a firebrick material that has the consistency of stone.  One person on this site has mentioned that he has broken the front plate of his refractory, but he must be dropping in wood instead of placing it in.  I see this stove lasting many, many years.  I hope this helps you.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 19, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> If anyone is intersted in seeing what the 2 in 1 looks like, I took pictures and posted on http://files.jwp-inc.com/Stove/ and you will see the plate, 2nd burn chamber, CAT chamber and where the CAT probe enters. Finally had enough of a warm up to shut it down. I think we burned for 8 days straight and by the looks of -5 weather at night coming to Central Ohio again, we'll be firing her up tonight. Enjoy.




Tell me about the refractory assembly. Specifically it's expected life span and replacement costs.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 19, 2011)

WSForever said:
			
		

> Yes, the refractory assembly is completely different.  The refractory on my old VC Encore burned through and they quoted me $1,100 for a replacement including the rebuild that would be needed.  The only reason I got the newer Encore is because I did not want to have to spend the money to replace a fragile styrofoam refractory and rebuild a ten year old stove.  The new refractory is exposed, and not located behind a cast plate as in the old version of the stove.  It seems to be made out of a firebrick material that has the consistency of stone.  One person on this site has mentioned that he has broken the front plate of his refractory, but he must be dropping in wood instead of placing it in.  I see this stove lasting many, many years.  I hope this helps you.




Hmm... going to have to find out more about it's life span and replacement parts. The only thing worse than VC's previous cat design was dealing with VC the company.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 19, 2011)

The refractory plate (thing with the flower) on my 2 in 1 is thick and solid. No foam. Unless I really dropped a heavy piece of wood on it or dropped it while out of the stove, I can't see it ever breaking. It's about 3/4 thick and solid brick or masonary material. I believe the broken plates people are talking about must be the old non-2in1 design as this new one is thick. I'll try and take a side view picture with ruler tonight and post. It's heavy, really heavy so breaking this, even if slamming wood against it, seems unlikely. They have other plates just like this on the right and left side of the stove held in with metal tabs. Again, I'll take pictures but the broken plates must be from NON 2in 1s.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 19, 2011)

Oh someone said their old plate burned through. I can't see this as being possible as it's about 3/4 inch solid masonry material in the new 2in1.


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## pixelmountain (Jan 19, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> Oh someone said their old plate burned through. I can't see this as being possible as it's about 3/4 inch solid masonry material in the new 2in1.



In case it's not clear here, that was referring to an earlier model:



			
				WSForever said:
			
		

> The refractory on *my old VC Encore* burned through...


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## pixelmountain (Jan 19, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> I believe the broken plates people are talking about must be the old non-2in1 design as this new one is thick.



I agree with you based on my experience with the new Two-in-One Encore, which I have. 

But the person who wrote that is quite clear that he is also talking about the new model:



			
				engineroom said:
			
		

> I have been using the new VC Encore 2 in 1 for about 5 weeks.... There is one serious problems though. The newly designed removable refractory cover plate at the rear of the firebox breaks like a thin sheet of glass. (has the sea shell design cast into it) Two of them have broken in my new stove in the last 3 weeks.


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## nekit (Jan 20, 2011)

NinoUrbana
When you installed the temperature probe in the back of your stove.  Did you seal up around the hole where the probe goes through?
Thanks


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## NinoVitale (Jan 20, 2011)

I went ahead and took two pictures of my refactory plate from my 2in1 including one with a measurement. It's 3/4 inch thick solid, no way this could be burned through. I also accidentally dropped it and chipped a very very small piece of it out, my stupidity. Anyway, the one good thing is it's solid. If this were designed to burn through it was defeat the purpose of the 2nd burn chamber. This is the plate that sepeartes the firebox from the burn chamber. Temps in the burn chamber, when the damper is closed, easily get to 1000-1500. Most material will melt at that. Since this might be an issue for someone considering a purchase, I wanted tos how as much as I could. This is a pretty heavy solid piece of material and 90% of the time, should never really be taken out so I can't see how it could be broken in any way with standard usage. And again, on both the right and left side of the 2in1, there are plates there made of what looks to be the same material as the refactory plate. I can't confirm that, but it looks and feels the same, but they are held in with clips and I don't feel like getting that busy to take them out. They could be insulator plates to keep too much heat from the sides.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 20, 2011)

I wanted to bring up another issue I have noticed for the positive on the 2in1. This stove pushes the heat out the top and front and it is amazing to me how the stove can be at 600 (iron, not griddle) and the sides and back are still relatively cool. This makes for a situation where you can really tuck this into a corner or close to a wall on either side. I think VC has done an amazing job making a stove and placing insulation and panels and likely air pockets I can't see, in places where the stove still heats up and radiates heat around the iron cast, but focuses this heat to the top and front. Bravo. I have mine in a corner install only about 20 inches (not sure exactly) from the corner of the stove on either side. It just takes a smaller footprint than most. In fact, the clearnance on this is the same as my old and much smaller Intrepid II, but the Encore 2in1 puts out so much more heat for so much longer with the same amount of wood. All the clearances specs can be found on their web site, but I really notice this when the stove is crankign and feel the dry wall behind the stove, it's warm, but by no means hot. You can really tell the insulation and projection of heat has been worked out with this stove. It's not just a pretty stove, it's smart.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 20, 2011)

Oh, here's the direct link to the photo of the plate with the measurement.

http://files.jwp-inc.com/Stove/refactory plate.jpg

and this is to all the pictures

http://files.jwp-inc.com/Stove/


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## Stump_Branch (Jan 20, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> branchburner said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clark I will be the first to say (maybe not) that I absolutly love your store. Anyone in the MD area must go. As far as a stove shop gos this thing is tops. I almost expected to see super cedars being sold on the shelf (could you do that).
My sister and Brother in law recently purchased an 30-nc from you and love it. Your Stihl section is unprecedented. I wish I would have known about it before i purchased my saw and stove. More so the stove, as i caught a break on the saw, but i will be buying all my saw chain etc. there. Lots of folks around here know of you and have nothing but good things to say. I hope you are able to chime in more. 

When I upgrade my current stove I will be paying you a visit.


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## VCBurner (Jan 23, 2011)

Beautiful set up Nino.  If I were you I'd be running a Defiant to heat that monster house!  But beautiful nonetheless!!  I like the color contrast of the stove and hearth, against the background.  It sounds like you have quite the complex set up.  Congrats I love the look of those Encores!  Here are some of your pics:


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## raybonz (Jan 23, 2011)

I have always loved the looks of Vermont Castings stoves but the refractory material scares the crap out of me.. Sometimes I am not so careful adding wood to the stove and I would be afraid I would damage the interior whether it is  hard or not.. I hope it all works out and lasts for many years with little part usage.. That to me is the measure of success...

Ray


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## NinoVitale (Jan 24, 2011)

I did not seal up around the hole where the temp probe goes in. There is insulation there and already a hole through the cast iron. The rear heat shield has a removable button that pries off and pushes back on if you aren't using the probe. I'm not sure what the proper practice is but when I purchased the unit from the dealer (probe) I looked at theirs, and said, you just poke it thorugh, and he said yep. They are usually quite knowlegeable at my particuarlar store. I have been running this way for week and have had no problems. I better call and clarify this with the dealer though. There never are instructions with this sort of thing.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 24, 2011)

Wow, I didn't realize someone would post my pictures. Anyway, I don't run the defiant because the Encore is located in a room and not an open space. There is a large opening between it and the kitchen and into other areas, but I have two couches near the stove and when the Encore is blazing, I have a hard time sitting 8 feet away on the couch in shorts and a T shirt when it's 10 outside. I was afraid it would be too much for the room. The room is about 25 by 15 with a 14 foot cealing. I have a 12 by 7 foot opening leading into the kitchen, so it's a large opening but I think the larger stove does better in a more open house layout. We have a new house but built it to act and look like a farm house from the 1800s, which were boxes with box rooms.


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## VCBurner (Jan 25, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> Wow, I didn't realize someone would post my pictures. Anyway, I don't run the defiant because the Encore is located in a room and not an open space. There is a large opening between it and the kitchen and into other areas, but I have two couches near the stove and when the Encore is blazing, I have a hard time sitting 8 feet away on the couch in shorts and a T shirt when it's 10 outside. I was afraid it would be too much for the room. The room is about 25 by 15 with a 14 foot cealing. I have a 12 by 7 foot opening leading into the kitchen, so it's a large opening but I think the larger stove does better in a more open house layout. We have a new house but built it to act and look like a farm house from the 1800s, which were boxes with box rooms.



I think if you had a Defiant you would be paying even less to heat and would take less loading to do so.    Plus with the little amount you spent on the Encore, I couldn't have resisted the big boy on the Vermont Castings block.  Sound like you're happy with the Encore, though, it's is a stunning showpiece.  Congrats!


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## NinoVitale (Jan 25, 2011)

Does anyone know what these holes are for in the encore 2in1. The  are located between the fire box and the 2nd burn chamber. I'm sure they are for airflow. Just trying to figure out the airflow in this box. VC has very few diagrams and I like to understand how the air is suppose to flow inside these cast iron monsters.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 25, 2011)

The Defiant was only about $400 more than the Encore and honestly, I wish I had gotten it if only for the slightly larger firebox, but at the time, I was going from an Intrepid II and did not draw heat off of this back into the return plenum. Also, if you look at the three pictures of our house, you can see the stove is in it's own room and we have couches, I was concerned it would put out so much heat it would blast us out. The encore almost does that now. There is only about 50 more pounds of iron in the Defiant, but the wood box is larger and is speced to handle logs 2 inches longer, 22 v. 24 inches I believe. I'm happy, going from an Intrepid II to an Encore 2in1 has been a great upgrade and the heat simply doesn't run much in a foam insulated home.


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## Ductape (Jan 25, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> I have always loved the looks of Vermont Castings stoves but the refractory material scares the crap out of me.. Sometimes I am not so careful adding wood to the stove and I would be afraid I would damage the interior whether it is  hard or not.. I hope it all works out and lasts for many years with little part usage.. That to me is the measure of success...
> 
> Ray





I'm sure everyone who bought the non-cat VC stoves of the past 5 years also felt there was nothing that could go wrong.  Heck....... even if something DID go wrong, VC offered a LIFETIME warranty on refractory parts. Just talked to my neighbor the other day after he spent $800  to rebuild his 4 year old stove due to VC's junk refractory parts. My defiant has a crack in the refractory fireback the 'new' VC won't warranty. I'm sure my fountain is next. Call me crazy, but I'm far beyond skeptical of the new 2 in 1 VC stoves. Afterall....... when they start failing, all VC has to do is file for bankruptcy protection again, and not honor any of their 'lifetime' warranties (AGAIN).


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## raybonz (Jan 25, 2011)

Ductape said:
			
		

> raybonz said:
> 
> 
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Wow $800.00 bucks to fix a 4 year old stove is crazy!! First a 4 year old stove should very little is any parts and 2nd VC should back up their products! I think I will steer clear of VC based on what you have stated.. 

Ray


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## VCBurner (Jan 26, 2011)

Hello gentlemen, 
I did a fair amount of reasearch while looking for a used EPA rated stove last year.  A lot of people tried to steer me away from my Dutchwest.  They said, the stove was easy to overfire, it would be difficult to control, the inside parts would warp, especially the top of the firebox (inner layer of cast iron.)  I found this to be completely untrue so far.  In my opinion any stove can be overfired if operated incorrectly.  Yes, I agree, any stove should be able to withstand an occasional overfire.  Not a sustained overfire for a long period of time, but an ocasional oops!  

I agree, that Vc's reputation has not been the best in recent history, but I hate to completely write off the company completely.   VC has shifted some of the cast iron production from China back to Vermont.  They seem to be trying to rectify what has gone wrong in the past.  When a company changes hands there's no telling what happens I guess!  It kind of goes to show that nothing is really etched in stone, the only sure thing is we will live and we will someday die.  Everything else is subject to change.  Here's* Jay Clark's quote from reply #47 an #50 on this thread*, he visited the VC plant in Randolph, VT :



> I hear what youâ€™re saying in regards to them learning from their mistakes. There are still many things they need to work on. So many of their products are designed without any regard for ease of installation or longevity of certain parts.
> 
> With that said, they have made MAJOR improvements in their manufacturing and quality control processes. I visited the factory over the summer which is when they introduced the 2n1 system. The production manager held a seminar specificly on the 2n1 systemâ€¦.
> 
> ...



I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt, they are creating jobs up in VT and with this economy it's what the country needs.  It may be a bit naive, but if they can bounce back maybe the whole country can too.


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## raybonz (Jan 26, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Hello gentlemen,
> I did a fair amount of reasearch while looking for a used EPA rated stove last year.  A lot of people tried to steer me away from my Dutchwest.  They said, the stove was easy to overfire, it would be difficult to control, the inside parts would warp, especially the top of the firebox (inner layer of cast iron.)  I found this to be completely untrue so far.  In my opinion any stove can be overfired if operated incorrectly.  Yes, I agree, any stove should be able to withstand an occasional overfire.  Not a sustained overfire for a long period of time, but an ocasional oops!
> 
> I agree, that Vc's reputation has not been the best in recent history, but I hate to completely write off the company completely.   VC has shifted some of the cast iron production from China back to Vermont.  The company has also started to They seem to be trying to rectify what has gone wrong in the past.  When a company changes hands there's no telling what happens I guess!  It kind of goes to show that nothing is really etched in stone, the only sure thing is we will live and we will someday die.  Everything else is subject to change.  Here's* Jay Clark's quote from reply #47 an #50 on this thread*, he visited the VC plant in Randolph, VT :
> ...



Those are valid points Chris and the inner tops are not known to be a big problem as far as I know.. I do know that they are hard to get for a stove of my vintage.. My stove was made in Taiwan and any parts I buy now are made here but it has been reliable at least for me.. I love hearing about companies creating work in USA but unfortunately it's usually totally opposite with our work going overseas instead.. I also do not care if a foreign company makes profit here as long as american workers make a decent living working for that fdoregin company.... The executives mean nothing to me as most are very greedy but I don't want to get started on that subject lol...

Ray


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Jan 26, 2011)

Stump_Branch said:
			
		

> Clarks ACE Hardware said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for the kind words, Stump. If not mistaken, we met last weekend? If so, it was my pleasure to meet you in person.

It is customers like you that have kept us in business for almost 2 centuries! We take our reputation very seriously. We take the products we sell very seriously. We do not hesitate to turn down a sale on something like a stove or a piece of power equipment if it does not fit what the customer is truly looking for and not if safety is a concern.

We may not have the most spotless store/showroom in the area, we may not sell ALL of the popular brands and sometimes we don't have the best price...... BUT, you have my family's and employees' word that we are going to be honest and straight up about all of our advice and promise that we stand behind everything we sell, if something isn't right.... We will make it right. 

My father literally lives and breathes by this principal. I have to say, he has done an amazing job at having it rub off on others.


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## NinoVitale (Jan 26, 2011)

Can we keep this thread about 2in1 stoves and not about our political/philisophical/business opinions. Now we are making comments about executives that we don't even know. Let's stick to sharing info about our stoves.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Jan 26, 2011)

Nino,

You have a beautiful setup there. Great choice on the stove and particularly the enamel!



I wanted to chime in again on the refractory access cover....

This new refractory material is almost identical in composition to the actual molds that are used in the castings process. I can't imagine a more suitable material than something that is used to house molten iron.

The part number for the access cover is 30005303, it retails for $53.00

Here's a blurry image and video of the Randolph Plant Manager showing off the templates for the new refractory panels.


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## VCBurner (Jan 26, 2011)

Great post again Jay, 
Thanks for the pics ands imput that would not otherwise be known.

Chris


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## VCBurner (Jan 26, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> Can we keep this thread about 2in1 stoves and not about our political/philisophical/business opinions. Now we are making comments about executives that we don't even know. Let's stick to sharing info about our stoves.


Hello Nino,

Chris here.  Sometimes people can get a little sidetracked and comment beyond the topic on the thread. This is just another side affect of having an open forum.  However, I don't think that person meant to offend anyone.  Don't get dicouraged by this minor occurance.  We need all kinds of people with different opinions and views on this thread and in this world.  So, stick around, your posts will prove to be very valuable to someone looking for advice in the future.  That, I'm sure of.

Chris


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## Ductape (Jan 27, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> Can we keep this thread about 2in1 stoves and not about our political/philisophical/business opinions. Now we are making comments about executives that we don't even know. Let's stick to sharing info about our stoves.




If no one talks about Vermont Castings' last generation of junk stoves, then in three years if the current line turns out to be problematic (back of the stove glowing red due to failed fountains) everyone who bought one will be sitting there feeling ripped off. Buyers should at least have knowledge of Vermont Castings' past business practices of manufacturing and selling a faulty probuct and then getting out of honoring their warranties by filing for bankruptcy. When I visited my dealer to inquire about getting a new fireback for my Defiant, I was informed that VC would not warranty it bacause the stove was purchased three months before they went bankrupt. Unfortunately, the current version of Vermont Castings is not interested in making the owners of the last generation of stoves happy over what is probably a few dollars worth of refractory parts (at the manufacturing level) per stove. Best part is, they give absolutely no warranty on their own replacement parts either......... so how long do you imagine the replacement parts are good for?? My advice is, buyer beware. Today's Vermont Castings bears no resemblence to the legendary Vermont Castings that manufactured my first wood stove in 1979.


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## VCBurner (Jan 27, 2011)

Read tis article on the founders and history of Vermont Castings:
http://www.inc.com/magazine/19890301/5564.html
It is called "Keeper of the Flames"
VC is a classic story of the American dream.  

I wish this article was finished on this link, they bring it to the point when VC bought Dutchwest in 1988, then it just ends.  But it was written in 1989 so it must not be missing much.

Then, you can sort of piece some of the remainder of what happened to VC, in a broad sence, from another article here on Hearth.com called History of the Dutchwest:  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Dutchwest_History/

Some more recent details about VC were brought to light earlier on this thread by Jay Clark, who recently visited the VC manufacturing plant.


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## jstthinkaboutit (Jan 31, 2011)

Hey guys, I must say I am new to wood burning and wood stoves. I purchased the Encore 2n1 stove in Dec of 2010. I mainly decided on this stove because of the option of the cat and non cat burning. Since I have had the stove I have been basically burning in the cat operation. I have a stove top grid therm and also installed a probe type flue therm(did this cause I have double wall pipe) to measure internal flue gases. I see many of you have had much more experience with wood burning then I have and just wanted to know if anyone knows what the flue gas temps should be on the probe therm. I have it mounted 24" above the stove. When I first start burning in a cold stove I obviously start with some small kindling and build a good burning fire. When the griddle temps hit about 500 degrees and the flue gases are about 800(about a 40mins to an hour after starting the fire) I close the damper to engage the cat and I have the primary air wide open. At this point I can hear a throaty rumble sound and I can look at the back of the stove through the glass and see that behind the refractory access cover(the one with the shell on it) and if you look through the line you can see some flames and glowing back there and the flue gas tamps start to rise. After a few mins or so I cut the primary air all the way down and the stove temps stay around 550-600 but my concern is the flue gas temps. When the cat is engaged and the primary air is cut all the way down and just about a full load of wood I somtimes see flue gas temps reach 1100. On the probe therm is it says after you get past 900 degress that its "too hot". Like I said I dont see these temps all the time( mostly around 800-900 on the flue gas probe) but when I do see the 1000-1100 range it stays there for about 30 mins or so till it starts to come back down and sit around the 800-900 range and the stove griddle temps do not go much past 600 and if I actually use the hand help digital temp reader and take some temps on the actual cast iron sides  its around 450 degrees. I am hoping that this is nothing to be worried about and that it just may be the diffrent wood/load size and maybe because its getting better draft from being colder out on some days. Anyones input on this would be great!.


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## Todd (Jan 31, 2011)

jstthinkaboutit said:
			
		

> Hey guys, I must say I am new to wood burning and wood stoves. I purchased the Encore 2n1 stove in Dec of 2010. I mainly decided on this stove because of the option of the cat and non cat burning. Since I have had the stove I have been basically burning in the cat operation. I have a stove top grid therm and also installed a probe type flue therm(did this cause I have double wall pipe) to measure internal flue gases. I see many of you have had much more experience with wood burning then I have and just wanted to know if anyone knows what the flue gas temps should be on the probe therm. I have it mounted 24" above the stove. When I first start burning in a cold stove I obviously start with some small kindling and build a good burning fire. When the griddle temps hit about 500 degrees and the flue gases are about 800(about a 40mins to an hour after starting the fire) I close the damper to engage the cat and I have the primary air wide open. At this point I can hear a throaty rumble sound and I can look at the back of the stove through the glass and see that behind the refractory access cover(the one with the shell on it) and if you look through the line you can see some flames and glowing back there and the flue gas tamps start to rise. After a few mins or so I cut the primary air all the way down and the stove temps stay around 550-600 but my concern is the flue gas temps. When the cat is engaged and the primary air is cut all the way down and just about a full load of wood I somtimes see flue gas temps reach 1100. On the probe therm is it says after you get past 900 degress that its "too hot". Like I said I dont see these temps all the time( mostly around 800-900 on the flue gas probe) but when I do see the 1000-1100 range it stays there for about 30 mins or so till it starts to come back down and sit around the 800-900 range and the stove griddle temps do not go much past 600 and if I actually use the hand help digital temp reader and take some temps on the actual cast iron sides  its around 450 degrees. I am hoping that this is nothing to be worried about and that it just may be the diffrent wood/load size and maybe because its getting better draft from being colder out on some days. Anyones input on this would be great!.



If you were consistantly at that 1100 I might be concered. Short spurts in that range are ok. Take those probe readings with a grain of salt, I think the Condar probes read a little on the high side of things according to thermocouple tests here by Wes999. It sounds like your stove top temps are good as well.
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/51880/


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## VCBurner (Jan 31, 2011)

Todd said:
			
		

> jstthinkaboutit said:
> 
> 
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> ...



 First off, welcome aboard. I agree.  I'm only on my third seasonof wood burning, first full season with an EPA cat stove.  But, I would think your numbers look great.  The only thing that worries me about the Encores and Defiants is that they don't come with a cat probe thermometer.  Mine has a probe and it really helps to see what's going on with the cat.  As Todd said, some people here have the flue probes and have readings just like yours:  1000 and slightly more.  If I were you I'd get the cat probe that I believe can be purchased for these stoves?  When I had my stove downstairs the flue temps reached close to 1000 on a magnetic thermometer.  I can't really have access to these numbers anymore because the stove is now in front of a fireplace.  I miss being able to see what's going on with the flue temps. 

Keep hanging around here and you'll find all the answers you need, people are really helpfull.  Search flue temps on the search bar at the top of the screen and you may find other cases worth reading about!
Good luck,

Chris


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## jstthinkaboutit (Jan 31, 2011)

Wow! Thanks guys for the fast response! The info youhave given me sounds great and makes me a lil more comfortable that I am running this thing somewhat correctly haha. I would love to install the cat probe but im very nervous about doing so. I contacted vermont castings and i see the "button" i am supposed to remove in order to slide the probe in. But they also said that i would have to drill a small hole once i get past that button in order to get the probe in. And they also said they dont have any measurments for me as far as the lenght of the probe i should buy. They told me to measure it lol. I just have a few more concerns that maybe you guys can help me figure out. When the stove got delivered and set up(i had it installed by the place i bought the stove from) when they where going over how the primary air lever works and the guy was showing me in the back how the flap moved he noticed the wire that is supposed to be secured by a allen bolt was loose and that it moved. So he called vermont castings while he was here and they told him to reset the wire he should make sure the primary air lever was all the way down and the door in the back was close and to pull the wire till he feels tension and then tighten the allen bolt. That sounded all well and good to me being a "newbie" to this whole wood stove thing but when he told me that wire was connected to a thermostat coil it kind of made me nervous that it was so simple to just tighten a bolt back up and there was no actuall specifics to it. Also as I was curious about how the whole primary air thing i was looking at the back of he stove and noticed above the primary air door that there was another notch where you could look into and see some small holes(like the ones in the front of the stove in the refractory fireback). As i was looking at these holes the stove was stone cold and i noticed a small metal plate that was almost starting to cover the holes. Is this part of the thermostat system as well? Does that metal plate move to cover the holes when the fire is to hot to cut back some air? I would imagine this is called a secondary air system? If anyone can take a look at the back of there stove in this area when the stove is cold or even hot to see if that plate should be covering the holes or not covering the holes. I just want to make sure that the thermostat system(if that plate is part of it) is working correctly. I must say i have been reading alot of the posts and threads on this forum and there is some great info!


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## VCBurner (Jan 31, 2011)

I don't know much about this stove aside from what I've read on this thread.  If you look at the posts by NinoUrbana you'll find out about how he inserted his cat probe.  As far as the secondary burn chamber he has some pics on here, here's the link to his personal pics of the stove:
http://files.jwp-inc.com/Stove/ 
I'm sure some others will chyme in with better answers about this particular stove!  Good luck!


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## jharkin (Jan 31, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> The only thing that worries me about the Encores and Defiants is that they don't come with a cat probe thermometer.  Mine has a probe and it really helps to see what's going on with the cat.



Condar makes a probe that can be used on these stoves.  Its the one with the remote digital readout.



On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?


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## VCBurner (Jan 31, 2011)

jharkin said:
			
		

> VCBurner said:
> 
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Thanks for the reply J,
I think it should be a standard item just like mine.  Too many people have probably burned out their cats and refrectory housing on their Defiant Encores, Defiants and Encore Cat stoves due to having no idea how hot the stove is or the cat is.  The manual only states that thermometers are helpfull and recommended.  They should be required with these stoves!  I think VC would be saving money if they made it a standard issue!  Most stove owners don't have a clue how hot their stoves really are, and don't care about overfiring them until they can't overburn them anymore:  cracked, warped parts, huge repair bills, etc...

As far as the replacement parts for their older stoves, I was wondering the same thing.  They would probably benefit from using the new materials as they seem to be more durable and cost effective.  I would also benefit from this, as I have a used Defiant Encore Cat coming in a couple of weeks.

Take care,

Chris


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## raybonz (Jan 31, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> jharkin said:
> 
> 
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Chris you certainly are the VCBurner! I love how they look and look forward to your experiences with it.. I would not hesitate to buy the 2461 stove you own now as I feel they will last a very long time and require little in the way of part replacement.. BTW my cat should be here today and yours probably will be too.. Good luck with that as I feel we got a great deal!

Ray


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 31, 2011)

jharkin said:
			
		

> On another note - Is there any talk that VC might upgrade replacement parts for the older stoves to be made from this new improved refractory ?




It does not look possible to me. Completely different design and I doubt the measurements line up. I will be returning to the local VC dealer this week to get replacement parts costs on the new stoves (back refractory panel and the fire brick parts for the cat assembly).


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## VCBurner (Jan 31, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

> jharkin said:
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BB, you don't think they could make the same refractory parts in the same molds but with the new substrate?  Of course this is just a thought, because I know nothing about the process as it really works in the factory.  It just seems to me that they could use the same molds just change the material that is put into the molds.  Let us know about the cost of the parts, good luck!


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 31, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> BrowningBAR said:
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I'm no expert either, but I'm going to say no. When I go to the Dealer on Thursday I will compare the stoves and see if they are even close to the same set up. But, based on the Intrepid design it would not work.


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## VCBurner (Jan 31, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Chris you certainly are the VCBurner! I love how they look and look forward to your experiences with it.. I would not hesitate to buy the 2461 stove you own now as I feel they will last a very long time and require little in the way of part replacement.. BTW my cat should be here today and yours probably will be too.. Good luck with that as I feel we got a great deal!
> 
> Ray



Hey Ray how goes it?  I'm curious too!  I have been in love with the look of this VC line since I first laid eyes in them.  I love the way my DW works and how all the parts are durable and easy to replace.  I haven't needed to do it so far and expect it'll remain this way.  The original CDW's and their newer counterparts were built for consumers who wanted a relatively inexpensive, but attractive and durable EPA rated heater.  In my eyes they've got a good thing here.  I hope the Encore will serve me as well as the DW has.  If it is then I will have two EPA rated stoves with some of the cleanest burns in the market for under $1000 bucks!

I'm looking into building a stove temperature alarm to warn operators in case of an overfire.  There have been many done like this.  But I don't see anything available for sale.  It should be fairly simple to make.


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## jharkin (Feb 1, 2011)

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VCBurners point is what I was thinking - *Not* shove the new parts in he old stove, but rather mark the parts for the old stove out of the new material.


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## jobidon (Feb 1, 2011)

I've had an Encore 2 in 1 for a few months, and the access cover just cracked and broke in two last night for no obvious reason.  The dealer says its warranted.  I'm curious if others are experiencing this problem or they have any advice.  I burn 24/7 and I like the stove a lot, but I do think that the way the access cover is designed to rest on a small ledge where it seems it could be dislodged by loading is a poor design detail.  The ash pan is great - I remove ashes once a day - usually a small amount - with very little dust or ash getting loose in the house.


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 1, 2011)

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I don't think that will work either. At least it wouldn't work on the Intrepid I have.


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## NinoVitale (Feb 2, 2011)

jstthinkaboutit - I have been told by my dealer that temps on the 2in1 are not to be compared with a standard CAT or non CAT stove. Why? That's why I asked. They said that that the secondary burn chamber is burning much of what was in the CAT and the CAT chambers will sometimes read very low, IE< itâ€™s not being used really, the CAT, because the temps arenâ€™t that high. My probe is just below the CAT on the way out of the stove. You are talking about exhaust temp in the flu. I have double wall and have never taken temps inside the flu so this may be irrelevant, but just wanted to pass that along. It makes sense to me that my CAT chamber may not read as high as I think because much of the burning is happening in chamber 2 where in a traditional non 2in1, the CAT is chamber 2.


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 4, 2011)

Parts pricing:
Main assembly/cat housing: $218
Exterior cover (The part with the shell on it): $90-ish
Interior cover: $60-ish
Back refractory panel: $53... I think
Catalyst: $100 from what I was told.

[sorry for some of the estimated pricing. I had it all written down, but my notepad seems to be hiding on me]

The parts are cheaper, and to me, they are better made. The life span on the new materials is undetermined, but it *has* to be longer than the previous assembly.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Feb 4, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> jstthinkaboutit - I have been told by my dealer that temps on the 2in1 are not to be compared with a standard CAT or non CAT stove. Why? That's why I asked. They said that that the secondary burn chamber is burning much of what was in the CAT and the CAT chambers will sometimes read very low, IE< itâ€™s not being used really, the CAT, because the temps arenâ€™t that high. My probe is just below the CAT on the way out of the stove. You are talking about exhaust temp in the flu. I have double wall and have never taken temps inside the flu so this may be irrelevant, but just wanted to pass that along. It makes sense to me that my CAT chamber may not read as high as I think because much of the burning is happening in chamber 2 where in a traditional non 2in1, the CAT is chamber 2.



This sounds right in theory. We have yet to get any readings on our cat in our Defiant. Although I have a probe on its way.

Below are some additional videos from my VC factory trip last spring with the Operations Manager explaining the 2n1 system. (keep in mind that this is pre-production and some of the materials you see are rubber molds)


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## jstthinkaboutit (Feb 7, 2011)

Hey guys, just wanted to give everyone on this thread with a 2n1 stove some information regarding the ceramic cat that came with the stove. I had mine running about a week ago in "cat" mode when I heard a loud crack. I let the stove cool down and I was trying to figure out where the crack came from and when i removed the cat it had a nice big crack in it of about an inch wide all the way across. Obviously peices came off it to cause a hole that big in it. I called vermont castings and they said they had some problems with the ceramic cats they sent out in these stoves being to big and causing a tight fit in the stove. And when they heat up and expand they dont have any room to flex and it will cause them to crack. They advised me to contact my dealer and send back the ceramic cat and they will send a new one out that is one inch smaller to it has room to expand. My date on the back of my stove was oct 15 2010. So anyone with a stove around then and earlier will have a cat that measures 2x2 1/2x13.  They are sending one out that is smaller to replace it at no cost.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Feb 7, 2011)

jstthinkaboutit said:
			
		

> Hey guys, just wanted to give everyone on this thread with a 2n1 stove some information regarding the ceramic cat that came with the stove. I had mine running about a week ago in "cat" mode when I heard a loud crack. I let the stove cool down and I was trying to figure out where the crack came from and when i removed the cat it had a nice big crack in it of about an inch wide all the way across. Obviously peices came off it to cause a hole that big in it. I called vermont castings and they said they had some problems with the ceramic cats they sent out in these stoves being to big and causing a tight fit in the stove. And when they heat up and expand they dont have any room to flex and it will cause them to crack. They advised me to contact my dealer and send back the ceramic cat and they will send a new one out that is one inch smaller to it has room to expand. My date on the back of my stove was oct 15 2010. So anyone with a stove around then and earlier will have a cat that measures 2x2 1/2x13.  They are sending one out that is smaller to replace it at no cost.



Thanks for the input, this is the first I've heard of this. 

Now that I think about it... I did notice that the cats seem to fit loosely in some of the more recent ones which now makes sense.


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## VCBurner (Feb 7, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

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Great info on this new technology.  Thanks for the videos Jay Clark, once again, you've gone beyond to provide us with knowledge that we would not have were it not for your input.  The more I learn about these 2n1 stoves the more I wish I had one.  I did not know they essentially have a third catalytic burn in addition to the secondary non-cat burn.  What an incredible technology! One thing I don't understand is how does one go from cat to non cat burns?  Is there some sort of bypass on top of the cat?


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## raybonz (Feb 7, 2011)

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If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..

Ray


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## VCBurner (Feb 7, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> If I remember right I think you have to take out the cat to use secondary combustion.. If you go to VC's website htey will shed light on this subject..
> 
> Ray


Hi Ray, did you watch the videos J Clark posted?  They are really good at explainning what goes on inside the secondary and terciary burn chambers.  He explained that while in cat mode the smoke still goes through the secondary chamber, if I remember correctly.  Quite different than what I thought it did.  I thought you had to pick between cat or non cat burn.  But, that doesn't seem to be the case.  However, you heard that in order to run it in non cat alone you need to take out the cat?  That makes things a little more complicated.  Although, it looks really simple to remove the cat.  But it would not make it possible to do with a hot stove.  Perhaps, it would be good for shoulder season as the guy mentions on the video.  But, you would need to open it up and take some things appart to put the cat in.  

Whatever the case, while in cat mode, it souds like a lot for the smoke to do before it reaches the exhaust flue in the chimney.  Which probably means a good draft is required.  This sort of goes along with the rest of the VC stoves.  I could envision people with less than adequate chimney height and non lined outside masonry chimneys complaining about performance as a result of poor draft and such.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Feb 7, 2011)

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It's my pleasure to share as much info as possible. I plan on starting a thread with all the pics and video I have from the factory when I get the time.


You are correct, in that, when the cat is in place it is simply stacked on top of the existing secondary burn system. Our display Defiant 2n1 flue temps typically hover around 250-300 (surface mounted on oval connector) while the griddle temps are reading 600-650. Most other non-cat stoves would be seeing flue temps at around 500 with stove temps around 650.

The only way you switch between these modes is simply removing the cat. This takes literally less than 15 seconds. 

In fact, I'm starting to believe that because they made it so easy to replace/install the cat in these the access cover design suffers (ie. it's not very securely mounted) which is why you are seeing a lot of people breaking them, NOT because of composition of the refractory material.


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## VCBurner (Feb 7, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> * I plan on starting a thread with all the pics and video I have from the factory when I get the time.*
> You are correct, in that, when the cat is in place it is simply stacked on top of the existing secondary burn system. Our display Defiant 2n1 flue temps typically hover around 250-300 (surface mounted on oval connector) while the griddle temps are reading 600-650. Most other non-cat stoves would be seeing flue temps at around 500 with stove temps around 650.
> 
> The only way you switch between these modes is simply removing the cat. This takes literally less than 15 seconds.
> ...


When you create this thread please let me know, I'd love to see it.  I have been researching the history of VC and have found a lot of info on the subject.  I wanted to know why they went from such a popular company to one that some people avoid.  A lot had to happen in between.  But they are still on the cutting edge of wood burning technology as the 2n1's  clearly show.  Thank you again for all the information.


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## barrettdp (Feb 8, 2011)

One of those videos shows the guy placing the new 2in1 system in place of the Everburn system. It appears that the base of the models are the same then? It would make me wonder if you have an Everburn system if you could easily replace it with the 2in1???


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## Ductape (Feb 9, 2011)

barrettdp said:
			
		

> One of those videos shows the guy placing the new 2in1 system in place of the Everburn system. It appears that the base of the models are the same then? It would make me wonder if you have an Everburn system if you could easily replace it with the 2in1???




That would be the best thing to happen to us owners of the previous generation of VC stoves. Maybe a current VC dealer would be kind enough to find out if the internals are interchangeable??? That may be all that keeps our stoves out of the scrap metal pile (assuming the current stoves end up working out long term).


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## bobabuoy (Feb 9, 2011)

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I had mine installed recently and have had some smoking issues. It turns out my chimney (installed by the dealer) is only about 13ft high. I had to point out to the dealer that the manual recommends a minimum of 16ft chimney.  I am hoping adding on some extra will fix the issues. But clearly my dealer wasn't trained properly by VC.


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## NinoVitale (Feb 9, 2011)

A few thoughts. 1 - I don't think we want flew temps of 500 because that would imply the heat is going up the chimney. Isn't the idea to burn all that you can out of the fire, gas and smoke before exiting to this. 2 - My CAT fits loosely. I have taken the stove apart several times. There is a hole in the back of the rear heat sheild. Pop the silver button and poke the probe through. My 2in1 encore had a hole in the iron cast into the CAT chamber (just past the CAT) IE, the probe is located just after the CAT and just before the the exit to the flew. 3 - I have burned my 2in1 for at least 300-400 hours now and have had no problems, but I also heat it up slow and take cast iron, never griddle temps, of 450 plus before entering bypass/CAT mode. Griddle temps are irrelavant to burning for heat. If you intend on cooking with it, great, but I can get the griddle up to 500 and the stove is still at 200. It's going to take 30 plus minutes to get 470 pounds of iron up to CAT burning temp to flick the bypass. 4 - I see no reason to ever put the stove into bypass without the CAT unless I were selling the stoves. The flames are different, but you reduce the efficiency of the stove and increase your wood usage. I burn for heat and I want to haul wood less and get as much BTUs out of my wood as possible. This means I use all the available efficiencies. I'm confused why anyone would want to remove the CAT. heating the flew up should provide adequate ventilation and if not, crack a window, heat it, and close the window. The CAT really does nothing to stop the air flow as it's just a chamber with a bunch of holes. They get above 1000 and burn as much away as possible. I get very little to no smoke out of my chimney when I'm heating properly, IE, 450 plus iron temp and in bypass with the CAT. Runs very efficient. Just my two cents. I love the stove. My dealer also burns their stoves not packed like I do, so they get very pretty flames, with the CAT in. They just put 2-3 logs toward the back and it always looks pretty in there.


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## NinoVitale (Feb 9, 2011)

Jay, the videos are the bomb. If they would just post consumer ready stuff like this, they'd sell a lot more stoves. I have seen some dealers who do their homework and others where I know more than them. Getting any info off the VC website is lame. When I spend this kind of money, I want to dig into the details and make a wise choice. Although I already have this information from a good dealer and taking this stove apart and making sense of it myself, this was great to see and confirm. I think it probably makes even more sense to someone who has time with their hands in the stove. BRAVO!


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## VCBurner (Feb 10, 2011)

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It would be unfair to blame VC for an installer obvious carelessness.  The manual clearly states the chimney height requirement of 16'.  The dealer probably did not think much about it or was trying to make a sale and didn't install it correctly.  Any installer/dealer should be aware of the required flue sizes before they put a stove in someone's house.  It is not only important for stove operation but could become a hazzard if done incorrectly.   Smoke in your house is a health hazzard and if caused by the imperfect stove installation, it is the dealer/installer's problem.  I would call the dealer and make him get you an extension at his cost or refund your money and pick up the stove.  Afterall, not everyone is willing to have a chimney extension added, mostly because of asthetic reasons.  The extensions that are attractive are usually REALLY expensive, in relation to other less attractive ones on the market.


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## bobabuoy (Feb 10, 2011)

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I didn't mean it to come across that it was VC's fault. Just rather that the folks at this particular dealer didn't know.  The sweeps/installer may not be properly trained by whoever keeps everyone up to date on the new stuff at their company.


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## redhat (Feb 10, 2011)

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+1. 

 If this is  possible, it would be great if VC would come out with some sort of conversion kit to convert from Everburn to the new 2N1 technology. I think it would be a big seller.


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 10, 2011)

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It would be a *huge* seller, but it would also really cut into their new sales.


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## emt1581 (Feb 11, 2011)

Holy freaking hell I turn my back for a few months and this thread turns into 6 pages!!

Well I have mine installed and LOVE it and I don't even have the cat in place yet (but that is more out of concern for my wood being too wet).  

I'd say feel free to ask questions but it seems they have all been covered already!

-Emt1581


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## Diabel (Feb 11, 2011)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Holy freaking hell I turn my back for a few months and this thread turns into 6 pages!!
> 
> Well I have mine installed and LOVE it and I don't even have the cat in place yet (but that is more out of concern for my wood being too wet).
> 
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I am just wondering if you feel your wood is too wet...how do you achieve secondary combustion? With my relatively new (sold) NC encore there would be no way to obtain secondaries with sub-par wood...

Are you looking at the chimney..is there any smoke visible? 

I  remember many post from members that owned the encore NC and issues with the everburn not engaging....mainly due to wet wood 

Just wondering


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## emt1581 (Feb 11, 2011)

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No no, this is just as a precaution because the wood is just not as dry and I'm used to.  The fire burns just fine and super hot.  In fact I need a thermometer to make sure I'm not getting the stove too hot.  Again, better safe than sorry.


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## VCBurner (Feb 11, 2011)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Holy freaking hell I turn my back for a few months and this thread turns into 6 pages!!
> 
> Well I have mine installed and LOVE it and I don't even have the cat in place yet (but that is more out of concern for my wood being too wet).
> 
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What kind of wood are you burning?


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## Diabel (Feb 11, 2011)

I understand your point, but are you getting the smoke to burn in the secondary chamber? Go look at your chimney.


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## emt1581 (Feb 11, 2011)

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Mostly Ash and Oak

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Feb 11, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

> I understand your point, but are you getting the smoke to burn in the secondary chamber? Go look at your chimney.



I did it this morning.  No smoke.

-Emt1581


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## Diabel (Feb 11, 2011)

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BINGO Then you ave achieved the epic burn!

VC is back in full force....watch out Woodstock


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## emt1581 (Feb 11, 2011)

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I don't know that I would go that far after having the thing for only 2-3 days now  but yeah, wasn't hard to figure out and get it to start pumping out massive amounts of heat.

I just need a thermometer or two, the $12 humidifying pot from Lowes, and a cast iron pan or two for dinner.

Now is it ok to put the humidifying pot on the enamel or does it have to go on the cook top?  I only ask because it's a pain in the butt to do things every few hours and taking a water pot off the cook top is just another step.

Also as for being able to fry/boil....is there anyone who sells a cooktop with a cutout for a pot so the flames touch the bottom of the pot??

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## dingle bay (Feb 11, 2011)

Great site!   We've been researching the Vermont Castings Defiant 2n1 wood stove.   Does anyone have any updates on their Defiant?   Looks great but we usually shy away from first year products.


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## VCBurner (Feb 12, 2011)

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I only ask because when I burn some lighter, softer woods my burns are shorter and less intense than say, a full load of oak.  Personally, I have burned very little amounts of ash mixed in with other stuff, mostly oak, maple an cherry, So I couldn't personally speak for it.  But, my father'n'law says that it tends to be a quick burner.  But you should still be getting more than 3-4 hours I would think.  Right?  Maybe you can get a couple of bags of bio bricks or something comparable to test out the burn lengths.   I found this to be helpful in determining if I needed to replace my cat.  Good luck.


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## raybonz (Feb 12, 2011)

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Chris did you get your cat yet and if so have installed it? I would like to hear what you think about it..

Ray


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## VCBurner (Feb 12, 2011)

No, not yet, I cannot wait to get it in the stove too!!  The new one is going to make a world of difference if my experience is as good as yours!  
I'm certain it will be.  The delivery date was supposed to be from the 11th to the 18th.   I will message the seller reguarding the shipping.  I still can't find any confirmation.  I have had the craziest work week.  We are doing snow removal on commercial roofs in Framingham.  Two weeks of six 10's and an 8 on Sunday.  I'll take it while I can.  But it doesn't leave a lot of time (and energy) to be spent after work.   I'll keep you posted for sure, though!  

Chris


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## raybonz (Feb 13, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> No, not yet, I cannot wait to get it in the stove too!!  The new one is going to make a world of difference if my experience is as good as yours!
> I'm certain it will be.  The delivery date was supposed to be from the 11th to the 18th.   I will message the seller reguarding the shipping.  I still can't find any confirmation.  I have had the craziest work week.  We are doing snow removal on commercial roofs in Framingham.  Two weeks of six 10's and an 8 on Sunday.  I'll take it while I can.  But it doesn't leave a lot of time (and energy) to be spent after work.   I'll keep you posted for sure, though!
> 
> Chris



Wow Chris those are some serious hours! Considering that you're a union carpenter and it is winter you're fortunate to be working at all this time of year.. Hang in there and maybe buy yourself a new toy with a little of that extra dough you're making.. 

Ray


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## emt1581 (Feb 13, 2011)

Ok, after a few days of burning I have some observations and questions...

First off, this thing is wonderful!  It heats the entire home without a problem.  The upstairs is about 8-10 degrees cooler from the downstairs.  I really should get a thermometer for the wall so I know what the rm. air is at heat-wise.

I noticed that when lifting the cook top to put wood in, the little nubs that stick out on the sides near the cook top's "hinges"/connection point are blackened.  Could the enamel have been burned off already?  Does that mean I hurt the stove?

I found that by closing the stove-pipe damper to 45deg. instead of open all the way as long as turning the airflow all the way down and closing the damper, I get significantly longer burn time.  The cook top is registering at 400-450 the whole time.  The pipe is registering at 150-200.

When I open it up and let it get fired up for 30-60 min, it goes to around 600-650.  

The shiny stainless cap on the chimney seems like it's slightly blackened underneath.

I think that's all for now...

But please share your thoughts on what I'm seeing.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## VCBurner (Feb 14, 2011)

Hello Emt.  Glad to hear the stove is still going strong.  I'm a nubie with EPA stoves, with only one years experience burning one. This is now my third year of wood heating.   Most of what I know came from endless hours of reading and posting here on this site.  I believe that most things I've read, state flue temps below 275 are an invitation for creosote formation in your chimney and pipe connectors.  Also, a pipe damper should not be necessary with a stove such as this one.  I've heard of others having pipe dampers in their connectors (with EPA stoves,) only when they have a problem with runaway draft, or sometimes as a precaution shut off valve in case of a chimney fire.  You should be able to control the temps and burn time with the stove's controls alone.  It is interesting to hear your experiences.  I hope I can learn from them as much as I have learned from others on this site.  I also hope to be able to help others in their wood heating endeavours.


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## emt1581 (Feb 14, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Hello Emt.  Glad to hear the stove is still going strong.  I'm a nubie with EPA stoves, with only one years experience burning one. This is now my third year of wood heating.   Most of what I know came from endless hours of reading and posting here on this site.  I believe that most things I've read, state flue temps below 275 are an invitation for creosote formation in your chimney and pipe connectors.  Also, a pipe damper should not be necessary with a stove such as this one.  I've heard of others having pipe dampers in their connectors (with EPA stoves,) only when they have a problem with runaway draft, or sometimes as a precaution shut off valve in case of a chimney fire.  You should be able to control the temps and burn time with the stove's controls alone.  It is interesting to hear your experiences.  I hope I can learn from them as much as I have learned from others on this site.  I also hope to be able to help others in their wood heating endeavours.



But my stove pipe is double or tripple walled...so I'm wondering what the true temperature is and if I'm invitine creosote or not?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## VCBurner (Feb 14, 2011)

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My pleasure!  So you have a magnetic thermometer on an insulated pipe?  There are probe thermometers that can be inserted into a small drilled whole into your pipe.  They will give you a more true idea of what goes on inside the pipe.  If the stovetop is at 400-450, I'd be willing to bet the flue temps are higher than your magnetic thermometer is showing.  BTW, you should be able to push the stove up beyond those griddle temps, like up into the 700's.  You are just not supposed to burn it at 750 for extended periods of time.  At least this is what most VC manuals state (I have noot checked out the 2n1 manuals.)

Chris


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## NinoVitale (Feb 17, 2011)

I would not use griddle temps, as the last few posts are doing. I would take my temps off the cast iron, just behind the griddle. Also, the stove is not meant to be run with the damper in a partial position. I can't see a way to get longer burn times by having the damper in a partial position. You would not get an effective burn in chamber 2 or the CAT because the air will go the path of least resistance, not back through the burn chambers. With my 4 years of burning VC CAT stoves, burn time is more of a function of the type of wood you use beyond all other measures. You want to burn for 12 hours, put some osage orange in there. But if you want a fast flame, use ash or popular. I burn a lot of black walnut and oak because that's what I have in my forest, along with some cherry. The cherry doesn't do as well but I use it more for starter wood. I believe if you read the book, VC does not recommend running the damper in a partial position, nor would this give you the efficiency unless I'm missing something. The best procedure seems to be put your thermometer on the iron, not the griddle. get to 450 and stay there or above for 10-20 minutes, then close the damper. Gotta get that 470-520 pounds of iron hot to heat anything. The griddle is nothing more than an easier way to stack the wood to the top. I would not use it for stove temp, it's a thin piece of metal not connected to the iron in any way. It's an access door. The stove is designed to heat by the cast iron.


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## VCBurner (Feb 17, 2011)

NinoUrbana said:
			
		

> I would not use griddle temps, as the last few posts are doing. I would take my temps off the cast iron, just behind the griddle. Also, the stove is not meant to be run with the damper in a partial position. I can't see a way to get longer burn times by having the damper in a partial position. You would not get an effective burn in chamber 2 or the CAT because the air will go the path of least resistance, not back through the burn chambers. With my 4 years of burning VC CAT stoves, burn time is more of a function of the type of wood you use beyond all other measures. You want to burn for 12 hours, put some osage orange in there. But if you want a fast flame, use ash or popular. I burn a lot of black walnut and oak because that's what I have in my forest, along with some cherry. The cherry doesn't do as well but I use it more for starter wood. I believe if you read the book, VC does not recommend running the damper in a partial position, nor would this give you the efficiency unless I'm missing something. The best procedure seems to be put your thermometer on the iron, not the griddle. get to 450 and stay there or above for 10-20 minutes, then close the damper. Gotta get that 470-520 pounds of iron hot to heat anything. The griddle is nothing more than an easier way to stack the wood to the top. I would not use it for stove temp, it's a thin piece of metal not connected to the iron in any way. It's an access door. The stove is designed to heat by the cast iron.



Nino,

What kind of difference in temperature does one get from griddle to the area where you put your thermometer?  The griddle always gets hot faster right?  Doesn't VC recommend measuring temps from there?  I read all your posts, just can't remmember what the reasoning is behind it.  The griddle gets hot too fast so that temp is not a good sign the stove is ready to go into secondary mode?   I will be getting a used Defiant Encore #2190 in a few days, maybe this technique will come in handy.  Another question, as a scientific burner, do you ever think about having an overfire alarm?  I've seen some of these homemade devices but as far as I know there's nothing on the market that does this.  Thanks,

Chris


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 17, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> NinoUrbana said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It can be over a 200 degree difference with the Vigilant and Intrepid. I can't speak for the new Encore, but the griddle is the recommended spot for the Intrepid.


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## NinoVitale (Feb 17, 2011)

page 23 of the new Encore 2in1 says take temps in the center of the griddle so I will agree, that's what they say, but think about this, you need a hot flew to draw air and a hot stove to keep the fire going and heat your home. I can get the griddle to 400 in about 5 minutes if I build my fire direct center and flames are hitting the gridle. The stove temps are still around 200 and no heat is coming into the room. The CAT chamber is probably colder than that. I would never close my stove with an iron temp of 200. You just have no heat momentum. I've talked to a few dealers who have told me this so it's not my thinking but theirs. They don't agree with the page 23 reco. I tried it both ways and the stove would take forever to put out heat. Instead, I get a good, large fire going in the box. This ensures the iron gets hot and the flew gets hot. Once I get 400 plus just behind the griddle, that's when I close the damper. Why? A few reasons. 1 - the flew is good and hot and when you close the damper, it will draw the air through the secondary and threw the CAT better without a flame out. 2 - The CAT will really only work at 1000 plus degrees so if you don't have all the iron around it hot, the CAT chamber may likely be too cool to actually work. I have proven this out with a temp probe. If I go by griddle temps. I see CAT probe temps well below 500. The CAT won't work at that temp. 3 - to generate heat, I need the iron at 400-600, not the griddle. The iron is what heats the house. closing up the stove to early stiffles the heat build up and then increase significantly, the amount of time to get the entire cast iron up to these temps. My goal is to get heat. To get heat, I need the 470 pounds of iron at 400 plus. The griddle temp is irrelevant to generating heat. I've had probes all over, one on the griddle, another on the iron behind the griddle, another in the CAT chamber, another in the flew drilled threw, all at the same time. If you close this stove up before it's time, it will take forever to get the iron to 450-550 where it really puts out the heat. The Intrepid is another story. That stove is a casual stove with very little iron. You don't need a lot to heat it up. The Encore and Defiant with over 470 pounds of iron v. 220 in the Intrepid, take time. I ask this, what's the goal. Mine is to heat so I need that entire stove at 450 plus as quickly as possible, then I close it up, get 1100 in CAT and it burns forever on 6-8 logs with the air all the way closed. My goal is always have the iron at around 500, air full closed, damper closed. This gives the most efficient burn with the most heat. I see griddle temps of 750-900 before I close the damper but the iron itself is still around 400. The iron is the stove temp, not the griddle. If you don't believe me, start a cold stove, get the griddle to 450 and you can put your hand on the stove on the sides, bottom and even the top. The iron won't be hot. Takes time to penetrate and get the iron hot so it radiates heat all around.


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## -PB- (Feb 17, 2011)

interesting... that being said, on a cold start, or reload for that matter, shouldn't you always build a hot fire in the back of the stove, closest to the combustion chamber, to get that area the hottest first? Once you achieve secondary combustion the temps of the rest of the stove area will catch up to the back????


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## VCBurner (Feb 18, 2011)

I hear what you're saying, Nino, it makes sence.  I will try this technique with my 2190, as long as I actually bring it home.  I burn a Dutchwest Cat currently and also run it hot before engaging the cat.  On that stove my temps sometimes reach 600 before engaging the cat.  They say burning wood is an art and I've come to agree.  This year has been a great learning experience with my cat stove.  I'm at the point when I know exactly when to engage the cat and get it to light off (I can see the cat through the baffle on top of my stove.)  Same can be said about getting low intensity clean fires during mild weather days like today.  I can engage the cat with the cat probe at 300 and get it to continually climb up continuously untill light off.  It actually lights off around 600-700 degrees, so the cat does not have to be at 1000 degrees to work effectively.  That's the beauty of the cats they can burn the smoke at lower temperatures, as low as 500 degrees.  However, I agree to get better heat temps above 1000 really do the job!  Thank your for sharing your experiences.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Feb 22, 2011)

A little update on the 2n1's....


According to a source at MHSC, it IS technically possible to retrofit the newer 2n1 refractory pieces into the previous models. He was very particular about stating that this is not officially supported "at this time", but it is possible. 

Also, they have revised the composition of the refractory access panels. Any panels that have been replaced under warranty from here on (wasn't clear when this change was made) will have been made with the new recipe (the part number has remained the same).


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 22, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> A little update on the 2n1's....
> 
> 
> *According to a source at MHSC, it IS technically possible to retrofit the newer 2n1 refractory pieces into the previous models. He was very particular about stating that this is not officially supported "at this time", but it is possible. *
> ...




That's very interesting and surprising. And highlights how wrong I was


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## Ductape (Feb 23, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> A little update on the 2n1's....
> 
> 
> According to a source at MHSC, it IS technically possible to retrofit the newer 2n1 refractory pieces into the previous models. He was very particular about stating that this is not officially supported "at this time", but it is possible.
> ...





Thank you for looking into this. If I will need to buy a new fireback and fountain (at a minimum) for my previous generation Defiant, I would certainly prefer to change it over to the new 2 in 1 parts. At least then I'd have more confidence that the refractory parts might not need replacing in two years (????) ........ and I'd have to think parts support will obviously be better on the new 2 in 1s (provided they don't have the problems like the previous generation or stoves). Has anyone got access to MSRP prices on the parts that would be needed (fireback, fountain, access panel, cat ??)  to change over to the new stuff ??


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## VCBurner (Feb 24, 2011)

Ductape said:
			
		

> Clarks ACE Hardware said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sure if you PM J. Clark he'd be willing to help you out with the prices.


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## redhat (Feb 24, 2011)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> A little update on the 2n1's....
> 
> 
> According to a source at MHSC, it IS technically possible to retrofit the newer 2n1 refractory pieces into the previous models. He was very particular about stating that this is not officially supported "at this time", but it is possible .



That's good to hear, thanks for the update Jay.  Hopefully  VC will put together 2N1 upgrade kits for the non-cat ( Everburn)  Encores and Defiants similiar to the fireback kits they have available for the Encore cats. .


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm bumping this thread to see if anyone out there with a non-catalytic Defiant (1610) or Encore (1450) is interested in experimenting with converting their stove to the new 2n1 system. 

PM me if interested.


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## raybonz (Feb 9, 2012)

That sounds interesting Jay I look forward to hearing the experiences of those who do the mod..

Ray


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 9, 2012)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> I'm bumping this thread to see if anyone out there with a non-catalytic Defiant (1610) or Encore (1450) is interested in experimenting with converting their stove to the new 2n1 system.
> 
> PM me if interested.



Sent you a PM. Picking up a Cat Defiant on Saturday.


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## Cueman (Feb 10, 2012)

My Encore 1450 Non Cat has the Everburn chamber. Just spent half hour reading this post. I have no complaints with the Non Cat Encore, as it gets great secondary burns once the stove is hot and full of fuel. I'm going to post a new topic on this too, but when I clean the ash from the stove, I've put my hand up inside the refractory chamber and I find there are loose pieces of flaky gray chips that fall from the inside wall of the chamber. They are up to 1/8th thick. Can this be creosote or part of the chamber deteriorating? Not sure. But love the stove.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Feb 11, 2012)

CRC said:
			
		

> My Encore 1450 Non Cat has the Everburn chamber. Just spent half hour reading this post. I have no complaints with the Non Cat Encore, as it gets great secondary burns once the stove is hot and full of fuel. I'm going to post a new topic on this too, but when I clean the ash from the stove, I've put my hand up inside the refractory chamber and I find there are loose pieces of flaky gray chips that fall from the inside wall of the chamber. They are up to 1/8th thick. Can this be creosote or part of the chamber deteriorating? Not sure. But love the stove.



Post some pictures of the flaky chips.


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## branchburner (Feb 11, 2012)

CRC said:
			
		

> when I clean the ash from the stove, I've put my hand up inside the refractory chamber and I find there are loose pieces of flaky gray chips that fall from the inside wall of the chamber. They are up to 1/8th thick. Can this be creosote or part of the chamber deteriorating? Not sure. But love the stove.



I get the same thing in the afterburner of my stove; it is the chamber deteriorating. I have to be very careful when cleaning ash. If the vacuum comes in contact with it, pieces of the chamber come off.


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## Cueman (Feb 11, 2012)

branchburner said:
			
		

> CRC said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Branchburner

I wonder if this is normal. My stove was built 4/10, installed 2/11, and been burning in operation for an estimate of 6 months moderate use. I don't know what the life expectancy of the refractory everburn unit is supposed to be, or what it would involve and cost to replace. 

I guess for now I wont put my hand up there and just leave it be. The stove seems to be unaffected. 

Anyone know what material the chamber is made from?  I wonder if the summer months humidity have somehow enhanced the problem. Last summer I left the flue closed, so the only route for airflow would be through the secondary burn chamber. This may have been a mistake. I found a dead bird in there in July, that somehow made it in through the chamber, and died in the stove. Had a small fire in July after that discovery to purge the spirits, despite the 90 degree summer.  

My theory is the temp. gradient from the hot and humid to the cool cast iron had created moisture and eventually deterioration. This summer I'll leave everything wide open to let it circulate better.


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## Clarks ACE Hardware (Feb 13, 2012)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:
			
		

> I'm bumping this thread to see if anyone out there with a non-catalytic Defiant (1610) or Encore (1450) is interested in experimenting with converting their stove to the new 2n1 system.
> 
> PM me if interested.



I'd also like to add that if anyone would like to temporarily donate either one of these stoves so that we may do the conversion ourselves, you'd end up with a freshly converted 2n1. Preferably someone in the mid-atlantic region.

For anyone that is interested in either donating the stove to us or doing the conversion yourself... 

We will be subsidizing a portion of the cost of the parts to you during this period until all the kinks are worked out. The retail cost of the package is expected to run about $700 assuming all goes well with initial conversions.


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## frater61 (Sep 25, 2012)

I know this thread is a few months old, but I have a defiant 1610. I just started to get ready for burning season and found a crack in the firebacks and the shoe. When I did a little more investigating I found the fountain is deteriorating. This thread interests me because I was thinking about replacing the insides with the new 2n1 insides. The new defiant has a primary air damper in the base. Is that the only one or is there still one over the doors? What parts would be required to do the changeover?  Thanks, Rick


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## emt1581 (Sep 26, 2012)

frater61 said:


> I know this thread is a few months old, but I have a defiant 1610. I just started to get ready for burning season and found a crack in the firebacks and the shoe. When I did a little more investigating I found the fountain is deteriorating. This thread interests me because I was thinking about replacing the insides with the new 2n1 insides. The new defiant has a primary air damper in the base. Is that the only one or is there still one over the doors? What parts would be required to do the changeover? Thanks, Rick



I wish I could be of more assistance but I'm just bumping this for you hoping someone else will come along. 

All I can say is that I LOVE my Encore 2in1! 

-Emt1581


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## Moses (Dec 30, 2012)

Hi everone.  I don't know if anyone is still monitoring this forum, but I could really use some help. I have a encore 2 in 1 and I'm experiencing ignition in the chimney 1 to 2 times per day.  This is even after i had it cleaned by the person who sold me the stove. I am so frustrated with these chimney fires inside the stainless steel liner that I want to get rid of the stove.  If anyone has any words of wisdom i am all ears.  Thx.  Moses.


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## Moses (Dec 30, 2012)

I got fire going this morning.  I closed down the air control while building the fire and avoided igniting the chimney so that was good.
I went  and came bac and came back inside and there was a glow in the bottom of the stove where the coals are.  I realize this ed look I realize this looks like when I sometimes open the ash door to get a fire going there's like a stream straight up of fire. I think the gasket on ash door is not feeling snuggly anymore and that is what is causing me to have too much air in the stove and causing the chimney to catch on fire


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## webby3650 (Dec 30, 2012)

Too much air won't cause the flue to catch on fire. What is likely happening is when your bypass is open, it allows flames to go directly up the flue. You are getting a light layer of build up through out the day, when the flames hit it, it ignites. My stove has done this a few times, it's kinda scary, but closing the bypass stops the fire.


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## Moses (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for responding.  I went to the store yesterday for guidance.  They have an encore going and i got some much needed advice.  I wasn't building a 3 inch bed of coals prior to loading up the firebox.   Last night i built the fire more slowly building up the coals and i didn't have a chimney fire...yeah!  First day of no chimney fire in over a week!


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## slindo (Dec 31, 2012)

Opening the ash door for extra draft is a very bad habit to get in to - it'll destroy the insides of the stove and fog the glass if you keep it up too long, especially if you go away and forget its open. OK, it's often very hard to get a fire going in a reasonable amount of time without doing it. Though needing to open the ash door is often an indication that your wood is not dry enough.



Moses said:


> I realize this looks like when I sometimes open the ash door to get a fire going there's like a stream straight up of fire.


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## Moses (Dec 31, 2012)

thanks slindo. They told me that at the store also.  I am not going to do that any more.  Problem i have now is i over tightened the ash door latch and can't get it open without hitting the handle with a hammer.  I need to let the stove go out and readjust the handle.  

When  i went to the store i brought some firewood with me for them to test with moisture meter and it was okay.  It's been split and stacked for 10 months and sitting in a spot that gets direct sunligh every  day.


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## Moses (Dec 31, 2012)

The reason i got into opening the ash door is impatience... i am trying to get out the door to work on time.  Having a wood stove like this is for the retired i think lol.  I don't have the kind of time necessary to run this stove plus i am not mechanicallly inclined either so i should have installed a propane or natural gas stove


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## Moses (Dec 31, 2012)

Does anyone know if the stove is going in secondary burn mode (see the flame in the back) if you can open damper and add a piece of wood and immediately close damper?


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## Trilifter7 (Jan 1, 2013)

Just wondering if any of you guys have an update on how your 2-in-1 is burning now that you've had it for a couple of seasons? I have been looking into replacing my older Resolute with an EPA top loader and am starting to seriously consider the new encore after reading this post. Any issues with the CATs or weak firebacks? How are they holding up and would you guys still recommend it?


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## Moses (Jan 13, 2013)

I have an update.  After 11 months (February 2012 to now -no burning during summer of course) my rectangular honey comb catalyst is falling apart.  I went to check it to clean it and part of it crumbled and now it has a hole.  That explains the reason for the glow on the left but not much glow on the right  side.  Now i will likely have to replace it...have to check the warranty and check with the hearth store i bought it from.  What a pain this stove is.  It saves you firewood but seems costly to run and repair it.


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## bobabuoy (Jan 13, 2013)

My cat fell apart as well. I have been burning it without in the non cat mode with some good success. As long as I make sure I have a good bed of coals, I can load wood and get secondary burn immediately after closing the damper.


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## Moses (Jan 13, 2013)

That's encouraging to hear.  Thx for posting.


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## Smokey (Jan 13, 2013)

I bought a Defiant 2 in 1 in October, and the catalyst has failed after burning about 1/2 cord. I installed a cat probe to monitor temps closely. I found a crack in the casting that makes up the back of the stove shortly after taking delivery, and so far all the response from VC has been a verbal comitment to send parts for the repair. That was over a month ago with no estimate  as to when the parts will be available. They advised me not to use the stove. If I knew then, what I know now...


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 13, 2013)

Smokey said:


> I bought a Defiant 2 in 1 in October, and the catalyst has failed after burning about 1/2 cord. I installed a cat probe to monitor temps closely. I found a crack in the casting that makes up the back of the stove shortly after taking delivery, and so far all the response from VC has been a verbal comitment to send parts for the repair. That was over a month ago with no estimate as to when the parts will be available. They advised me not to use the stove. If I knew then, what I know now...


That seems like a lot of BS on VC's part. What did your dealer have to say?

You have a crack casting a shot cat withing the first two months of use. What were your griddle temps during a normal burn?


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## Moses (Jan 13, 2013)

bobabuoy said:


> My cat fell apart as we'll.  I have been burning it without in the non cat mode with some good success.  As long as I make sure I have a good bed of coals, I can load wood and get secondary burn immediately after closing the damper.


If i am understanding you correctly, you still get secondary burn mode WITHOUT the cat?


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## Smokey (Jan 13, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> That seems like a lot of BS on VC's part. What did your dealer have to say?
> 
> You have a crack casting a shot cat withing the first two months of use. What were your griddle temps during a normal burn?


Griddle temps are 600-700, so no problem there, but I do get a chemical smell when temps go above 600. I am guessing this is the cat breaking down. I just installed cat probe so I don't have enough burn time to comment on performance. I assume a max safe cat temp of 1600 F? My dealer closed after 75 years, so I contacted another dealer in my area, but I haven't heard from him in weeks. Sorry to hijack the thread.

Moses - I'm not the VC expert here, but you'll get a secondary burn without the cat, but at much higher temps only. I believe the difference is 1100 deg vs. 500 deg.


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## Ashful (Jan 13, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Too much air won't cause the flue to catch on fire. What is likely happening is when your bypass is open, it allows flames to go directly up the flue. You are getting a light layer of build up through out the day, when the flames hit it, it ignites. My stove has done this a few times, it's kinda scary, but closing the bypass stops the fire.



Waitaminnit... a Dutchwest owner and I discussed the phenomena of the roaring stovepipe in another thread, and this sounds like it may be related.  Happens in bypass mode, while trying to get up to catalyst engage temp., and usually (but not always immediately) goes away after cat is engaged.  Happens in recently cleaned pipes, too.  Are you suggesting I'm having frequent chimney fires?


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## Moses (Jan 13, 2013)

Smokey said:


> Griddle temps are 600-700, so no problem there, but I do get a chemical smell when temps go above 600. I am guessing this is the cat breaking down. I just installed cat probe so I don't have enough burn time to comment on performance. I assume a max safe cat temp of 1600 F? My dealer closed after 75 years, so I contacted another dealer in my area, but I haven't heard from him in weeks. Sorry to hijack the thread.
> 
> Moses - I'm not the VC expert here, but you'll get a secondary burn without the cat, but at much higher temps only. I believe the difference is 1100 deg vs. 500 deg.


. 
Thanks smokey. No reason to feel that you hijacked anything. I feel bad for you and your and your situation.  Maybe contact somebody higher up at VC and you might get some results...
i have a lot to learn about this cat and non-cat burn modes.  I thought you HAD to have a cat for secondary burn mode.  Now that mine is partially damaged, i wonder if i should remove it...?


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 13, 2013)

Smokey said:


> Griddle temps are 600-700, so no problem there, but I do get a chemical smell when temps go above 600. I am guessing this is the cat breaking down. I just installed cat probe so I don't have enough burn time to comment on performance. I assume a max safe cat temp of 1600 F? My dealer closed after 75 years, so I contacted another dealer in my area, but I haven't heard from him in weeks. Sorry to hijack the thread.
> 
> Moses - I'm not the VC expert here, but you'll get a secondary burn without the cat, but at much higher temps only. I believe the difference is 1100 deg vs. 500 deg.


With the 2-in-1 you don't need the cat, but the cracked casting is an issue.

Oh, wait, you posted pictures of your cracked casting about a month ago, didn't you?


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## webby3650 (Jan 13, 2013)

Joful said:


> Waitaminnit... a Dutchwest owner and I discussed the phenomena of the roaring stovepipe in another thread, and this sounds like it may be related. Happens in bypass mode, while trying to get up to catalyst engage temp., and usually (but not always immediately) goes away after cat is engaged. Happens in recently cleaned pipes, too. Are you suggesting I'm having frequent chimney fires?


I don't know? It was a guess. This is my first top loader and it's happened a few times. It happened to me after only a few weeks of burning on a new chimney. I couldn't have had enough build up to be a problem, but it seemed to catch fire for a moment.


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## Moses (Jan 13, 2013)

Joful, i think i know what you're talking about...when i close damper there is a roar for a few seconds or minutes but it goes away.  A chimney fire, which is what i was having, was confirmed by cherry red stove pipe.


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## Ashful (Jan 13, 2013)

My pipe has never glowed, but now that I have a cheap little IR gun, I'll have to check the external stove pipe temps next time it happens.


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## bobabuoy (Jan 14, 2013)

Moses said:


> If i am understanding you correctly, you still get secondary burn mode WITHOUT the cat?


 Yes.  I can see the flame through the slot in the back and there is no smoke at all coming out of the chimney.


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## Trilifter7 (Jan 14, 2013)

bobabuoy said:


> Yes.  I can see the flame through the slot in the back and there is no smoke at all coming out of the chimney.



What kind of burn times are you getting without the CAT?


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## Moses (Jan 14, 2013)

bobabuoy said:


> Yes.  I can see the flame through the slot in the back and there is no smoke at all coming out of the chimney.


Wow.  So maybe i won't buy a replacement cat.


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## bobabuoy (Jan 14, 2013)

Hard to say.  I have smaller splits so I can never fully load the stove without getting out of control.  Last night I had some weird experiences where I could see the secondary burn through the slit at stove-top temp around 450 (I was wondering if my stove top thermometer was off) but then later in the burn I was up to 600-650 and didn't see the burn.  I'm thinking of getting a cat temp probe to try and monitor more closely what's going on. Right now I have look for the  burn in the slit and then go outside to look at the chimney.


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## bobabuoy (Jan 14, 2013)

Here is a pic. You can see the horizontal slit in the back with secondary burn and no cat.


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## Smokey (Jan 14, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> With the 2-in-1 you don't need the cat, but the cracked casting is an issue.
> 
> Oh, wait, you posted pictures of your cracked casting about a month ago, didn't you?


Browning -
   I did post pictures earlier this year. The dealer I have been working with said he hoped VC would send the new casting without having to fill out paperwork, and  avoid going through the warranty claim process, but that did not happen. Last time we spoke, he said he would have to wait for the parts, and he didn't know how long that might take. I offered to pay him to make it worth his while to do the repair on the (brand new) stove, but I can't seem to get a price up front, and he hasn't returned my calls for over 2 weeks. I mailed a letter to the GM of VC, and the consumer protection agency, so we'll see if that does any good. 
  The good news in I checked VC's website, and they have the best warranty in the industry, so I'm sure I'll wake up tommorrow and find a new stove at my door. 
  Seriously though, anyone know of an easy way to move a 500 lb stove? I have to get this thing loaded in my truck if I ever hear from the dealer, and my back is max'ed out at about 100 lbs these days.  I'm thinking of building a dolly, but there's a few stairs involved. I'm pretty sure the casting below the ash pan is not a good lift point.


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 14, 2013)

Smokey said:


> Browning -
> I did post pictures earlier this year. The dealer I have been working with said he hoped VC would send the new casting without having to fill out paperwork, and avoid going through the warranty claim process, but that did not happen. Last time we spoke, he said he would have to wait for the parts, and he didn't know how long that might take. I offered to pay him to make it worth his while to do the repair on the (brand new) stove, but I can't seem to get a price up front, and he hasn't returned my calls for over 2 weeks. I mailed a letter to the GM of VC, and the consumer protection agency, so we'll see if that does any good.
> The good news in I checked VC's website, and they have the best warranty in the industry, so I'm sure I'll wake up tommorrow and find a new stove at my door.
> Seriously though, anyone know of an easy way to move a 500 lb stove? I have to get this thing loaded in my truck if I ever hear from the dealer, and my back is max'ed out at about 100 lbs these days. I'm thinking of building a dolly, but there's a few stairs involved. I'm pretty sure the casting below the ash pan is not a good lift point.


First off, I think you really need to be a massively squeaky wheel. You bought a new stove and they gave you a damaged product. I would be on the phone every single day busting their balls until this was resolved. This is a brand new stove and you are now a month into waiting for this to be resolved.

In regards to the dolly. You can buy one for $10 at home depot. It's what I used to move the Defiant (and the Vigilant, and the Encore, and the Heritage, and the 30...).

Take off the doors, the griddle, flue collar and anything else to lighten the load.
Slide the dolly under the stove. 
Tilt stove to one side and have someone slide in a wood plank under stove (you can buy them at home depot cheap in their cut bin)
Tilt stove to the other side, slid plank under stove.
Repeat until the stove rests on the planks enough to raise the stove legs off the ground.
The ash pan casting on the Encore, Defiant, and Heritage took the weight with no damage. I wasn't even concerned, to be honest.
Wheel stove to vehicle.
Load into vehicle.
I don't know how bad your back is, but, I was able to move all the stoves by myself. So, the weight is manageable.

But, I would focus on being a squeaky wheel.


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## webby3650 (Jan 14, 2013)

Smokey said:


> I'm pretty sure the casting below the ash pan is not a good lift point.


You can lift it from the bottom of the ash pan. That is often the only way to get under these stoves. No problem.


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## Smokey (Jan 14, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> First off, I think you really need to be a massively squeaky wheel. You bought a new stove and they gave you a damaged product. I would be on the phone every single day busting their balls until this was resolved. This is a brand new stove and you are now a month into waiting for this to be resolved.
> 
> In regards to the dolly. You can buy one for $10 at home depot. It's what I used to move the Defiant (and the Vigilant, and the Encore, and the Heritage, and the 30...).
> 
> ...


I agree 100 %, I need to make a stink about this. The problem I have is that I can't demand that a dealer repair my stove when I didn't buy it from them. They told me straight up VC doesn't pay them enough to do warranty work, and I understand thier point. When I call Monessan's warranty line, it rings, and  usualy no one picks up. When I did get through, I was told to find a dealer to handle the problem. The only dealer in Ct I spoke with that was helpful / knoledgeable about this stove is in Newtown, and I don't really want to bother them with this.
 At any rate, I can't thank you guys enough for the support, and the advise. It's much appriciated. 
I'll take a spin to the home depot tomorrow and pick up a dolley!


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## Ashful (Jan 14, 2013)

I moved my stove from vehicle to back door with this:






The only trouble was, my wife wouldn't let me bring it in the house.  Picky, picky...

If you don't like lifting onto planks (BAR is a brute!), you can use pry bars and fulcrums, going up or down by one 3/4" plank at a time.  It's slow going, but that's how I get my machines, and more recently my stove, on and off of dollies.  I've used this technique for jacking up and moving items up to 2500 lb. with very little effort or strain on my back.


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## slindo (Jan 15, 2013)

Time to start establishing a paper  trail, in case you end up in court over this. Start logging all phone calls and note what was said. Use email where possible so you have reponses on paper. I'd start by emailing the shop you got if from and ask why it is taking so long and when they will have the parts. Then email all the nearby VC shops and explain ask if they will do warranty work on your stove even though you didn't buy it from them. If you get no reponse to an email, print out a copy and make a note that they did not reply. If you can find a helpful shop don't be afraid to bother them - as authorized representatives of VC they are probably required by their dealer agreement to do service on under-warranty stoves regardless of where they were bought. If they reply they won't, fine, you have established that you cannot get warranty service with help from the manufacturer.

Then make copies of everything and send it to VC and ask them to tell you what to do next in order to get the warranty honored. Remind them that the product has apparently been defective since new, and that you are reporting on your problems, both with the stove and with the Dealer and VC, on a major woodstove forum that is followed by thousands of stove owners perspective buyers.

A phone call to your state consumer protection agency, in addition to a letter, just to find out what your rights are, might be in order too. 





Smokey said:


> I agree 100 %, I need to make a stink about this. The problem I have is that I can't demand that a dealer repair my stove when I didn't buy it from them. They told me straight up VC doesn't pay them enough to do warranty work, and I understand thier point. When I call Monessan's warranty line, it rings, and usualy no one picks up. When I did get through, I was told to find a dealer to handle the problem. The only dealer in Ct I spoke with that was helpful / knoledgeable about this stove is in Newtown, and I don't really want to bother them with this.
> At any rate, I can't thank you guys enough for the support, and the advise. It's much appriciated.
> I'll take a spin to the home depot tomorrow and pick up a dolley!


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## Moses (Jan 15, 2013)

Update on my crumbled cat...i called the dealer. Cat is under warranty so they are going to order me a replacement.  Happy about that to say the least.  Hopefully the next one will last longer than 11 months.  It sounds like cat is so sensitive if you get stove too hot it gets damaged. I dont have cat thermometer...


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## Moses (Jan 15, 2013)

bobabuoy said:


> Here is a pic. You can see the horizontal slit in the back with secondary burn and no cat.


Aha great.  Thanks for the pic


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## Ashful (Jan 15, 2013)

I think anyone running a cat stove should have a cat thermometer, and in fact I'm really surprised all cat stoves don't ship with one.  After buying one for my first stove, I actually learned I was burning too cool with the small loads I was running in the early days, with the cat typically below the magic 500F light-off temperature.  However, I can very easily see how one could be burning way too hot with full loads, especially when throttling down, as this usually temporarily drives cat temperatures up.  If I were processing catalyst warranties, maximum operating temperature would be among the first questions I asked.

The maximum operating temperature listed for most catalytic combusters is approximately 1800F, as this is the temperature at which the palladium material starts to delaminate from the ceramic substrate.  A few spikes to 1800F shouldn't kill your cat, but frequent operation there will shorten its life.

If you're blowing holes in catalytic combusters, or seeing them mechanically crumble, I wonder if you're accidentally running them much hotter, without even knowing it?


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## jharkin (Jan 15, 2013)

Smokey said:


> The only dealer in Ct I spoke with that was helpful / knoledgeable about this stove is in Newtown, and I don't really want to bother them with this.


 
I'm guessing that dealer is Black Swan. They have a very well established reputation, I would not hesitate to work though them on your issues if you can.


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## jharkin (Jan 15, 2013)

Everything you ever wanted to know about catalysts, from the folks who make them...

http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/maintenance.html
http://www.chc-hpba.org/images/Renewable Heat Symposium.pdf
http://www.woodstove.com/pages/pdffiles/Catalytic Combustor Tips.pdf
http://www.blazeking.com/PDF/posters/Wood Stove 10 Questions.pdf


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## Moses (Jan 15, 2013)

S





Joful said:


> I think anyone running a cat stove should have a cat thermometer, and in fact I'm really surprised all cat stoves don't ship with one.  After buying one for my first stove, I actually learned I was burning too cool with the small loads I was running in the early days, with the cat typically below the magic 500F light-off temperature.  However, I can very easily see how one could be burning way too hot with full loads, especially when throttling down, as this usually temporarily drives cat temperatures up.  If I were processing catalyst warranties, maximum operating temperature would be among the first questions I asked.
> Selling units with cat thermometers sounds like the way to go. Sounds like it would save money in the end as i would think less people would be burning up cats during the warranty period....
> 
> The maximum operating temperature listed for most catalytic combusters is approximately 1800F, as this is the temperature at which the palladium material starts to delaminate from the ceramic substrate.  A few spikes to 1800F shouldn't kill your cat, but frequent operation there will shorten its life.
> ...


sounds right.  How much did you pay for cat thermometer?


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## Ashful (Jan 15, 2013)

Well, since my stove is stuffed back into a fireplace (and more importantly, I'm a geeky scientist), I decided to go with a thermocouple and thermocouple meter, instead of the typical mechanical dial probe.  This permits me to track min/max/ave temperatures, and more importantly, not crawl behind the stove to see the gauge.  You can buy a thermocouple probe for $30'ish, and meters for anything between $30 and $10,000.  I have a few of the Amprobe dual-channel K-type meters, which I think run $50 - $60 each (Amazon.com), and come with two surface thermocouples.  I bought a 12" long 1/16" diameter probe good for +1700F from McMaster-Carr, bent it to 6" long, and it's been working great.


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## jharkin (Jan 15, 2013)

Joful said:


> Well, since my stove is stuffed back into a fireplace (and more importantly, I'm a geeky scientist), I decided to go with a thermocouple and thermocouple meter, instead of the typical mechanical dial probe. This permits me to track min/max/ave temperatures, and more importantly, not crawl behind the stove to see the gauge. You can buy a thermocouple probe for $30'ish, and meters for anything between $30 and $10,000. I have a few of the Amprobe dual-channel K-type meters, which I think run $50 - $60 each (Amazon.com), and come with two surface thermocouples. I bought a 12" long 1/16" diameter probe good for +1700F from McMaster-Carr, bent it to 6" long, and it's been working great.


 
Another option is to get the same thing in one box from condar  (but sans the cool tracking)
http://www.condar.com/digital_monitor_woodstoves.html


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## Ashful (Jan 15, 2013)

Yeah, I looked at that Condar rig first, but then decided I could do better for cheaper.  The only down side to mine is that the meter body is bright red, so while I want to mount it to the rear wall of the fireplace, it doesn't exactly blend in.  Right now, I just have a meter sitting on the floor next to each stove.


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## Smokey (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm really pleased with the $37 PID controller I installed in my bookshelf to monitor the cat temps. I connected a ceramic wrapped K type thermocouple good to 2200 F. It will turn on a blower or sound an alarm, and the best part is I can see the output from the couch, recliner or my computer.


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## Ashful (Jan 16, 2013)

I'm amazed PID controllers can now be had for less than the cost of a cheap thermocouple meter.  Are they also available for 120vac supply now, or do they still require a dc supply?


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## Smokey (Jan 16, 2013)

Joful said:


> I moved my stove from vehicle to back door with this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish they had offered one of these as an option when I bought my stove!


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## Smokey (Jan 16, 2013)

Joful said:


> I'm amazed PID controllers can now be had for less than the cost of a cheap thermocouple meter. Are they also available for 120vac supply now, or do they still require a dc supply?


This unit uses ac power. The ceramic thermocouple cost me more than the controller, but I'm sure I could have done alot better.


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## Moses (Jan 16, 2013)

Couple of days ago i lost my draft.  Smoke coming in the housewhen i open the top loader or the glass door.  Theflames used to shoot toward the damper opening and the fire would take off running.  Now the flames go toward the griddle and i cant even keep the front door cracked or smoke literally pours into the living room.  I took off the clean out trap door.  I looked up with a flashlight and do not see any blockages, but, the liner takes a little turn so i cant see past 3 - 4 feet.  I have to get on the roof and look down maybe there is something blocking the liner.......does anyone have any troubleshooting thoughts on this one?


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## Ashful (Jan 16, 2013)

I think you already nailed it, Moses... gotta do a top-down inspection on that liner, if you can't see sky from the bottom up.  Most build-up happens at the top of the liner, although many also report build-up occurring at the stovepipe-liner interface.  I think this is because cool air can be pulled in at this interface, causing localized cooling and creosote condensation.


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## Moses (Jan 17, 2013)

Yea just came down from roof.  The screen under the cap was clogged with gunk.  Guess gotta clean that maybe once a month, or cut it off....?  What purpose does the screen serve?  It's not that big maybe 6 inches wide...


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## Ashful (Jan 18, 2013)

Keeps squirrels and birds out.  If you hang around here in the springtime, you'll read many, many stories of squirrels and birds in wood stoves.

The mesh should be 3/4", unless you live in one of the wildfire areas, where they often specify 5/8" or other smaller openings.  Larger mesh = fewer clogged screens.


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## Moses (Jan 18, 2013)

Oh ok. Thanks Joful.  Appreciate it


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## Ashful (Jan 18, 2013)

Nothing can make a mess of your living room like a soot-soaked squirrel on the loose.  I had to deal with exactly this situation last spring, before I added the screen to one of my chimneys.


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## rideau (Jan 18, 2013)

Joful said:


> Nothing can make a mess of your living room like a soot-soaked squirrel on the loose. I had to deal with exactly this situation last spring, before I added the screen to one of my chimneys.


 
OK, I got my morning laugh. 

Thank you.


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## Moses (Jan 30, 2013)

Greetings fellow wood burners. I have the  encore with enamel finish. I must have neglected to clean it regularly so now I have baked on stains on the biscuit color...it is basically an off white that my wife picked... I would have chosen black.  Does  anyone know what i might use to safely remove baked on stains on the enamel?  Thanks.


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## Calentarse (Mar 8, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> I have been kinda alarmed by the way the refractory panels just sit around the cat, seems very unstable and vulnerable to breakage tome.


I have woken up in the morning to my decorative panel broken on two different instances in the two years I've had the stove. I do not drop wood in the stove. I have to deal with smoke pouring out the top load while I lightly drop wood in...such a pain!

I'm now on my third decorative panel (always replaced 100% under warranty since refractory brick has lifetime warranty) but I'm tired of driving 50 minutes to the closest dealer. The gas I do pay for! This time, however, I have high hopes since it is no longer a shell patter on it. There is a simple circle and the panel seems to be sturdier. We'll see...


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## Calentarse (Mar 8, 2013)

pixelmountain said:


> Ah, good idea. Mine says 28 Oct 2010.


Mine says Oct 30 2010.


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## Moses (Mar 23, 2013)

My panel just broke today...pain in the butt.


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## Moses (Oct 30, 2013)

split and stacked all my firewood much earlier, the earliest i have ever done it...burning this year is much easier.  easier to get into secondary burn mode.  much more enjoyable.  get wood now for next year


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## VC Since79 (Feb 15, 2014)

Clarks ACE Hardware said:


> I'd also like to add that if anyone would like to temporarily donate either one of these stoves so that we may do the conversion ourselves, you'd end up with a freshly converted 2n1. Preferably someone in the mid-atlantic region.
> 
> For anyone that is interested in either donating the stove to us or doing the conversion yourself...
> 
> We will be subsidizing a portion of the cost of the parts to you during this period until all the kinks are worked out. The retail cost of the package is expected to run about $700 assuming all goes well with initial conversions.


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## VC Since79 (Feb 15, 2014)

My son acquired an Encore  1450 non cat with my encouragement because of my own experience with a Defiant I ordered in 1979 right from the factory before Vermont Castings had any dealers. He also was happy with his Vigilant so we never thought to do any HOMEWORK before purchasing it.
What a nightmare learning experience this has been ever since.
Upon cleaning it before installing it a sizable hole appeared in the FOUNTAIN ASSY right below the flue opening..In doing our homework AFTER THE FACT we discovered that  this Fountain assy is actually the secondary burn chamber and it is made of a ceramic fibre board material that apparently gets brittle and disintegrates after a few years.
So in reading about this issue we found your post in this forum about converting the 1450 non cat to a 2 in 1 .
The question is...were you able to successfully convert a 1450 non cat ??
And what was the outcome or what issues were discovered in the process?
Any information you could give us would be appreciated..I realize your post is 2 years old
thanks....John


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## begreen (Feb 15, 2014)

4 year old thread. Start a fresh one with the question in the title. I think you will get a better response.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 15, 2014)

I got all excited for a moment...


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