# Black soot on side of house--Is this normal???



## pelletman (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi,

I just had my pellet stove installed this year.  I went outside (first nice day in winter) and noticed a lot of black soot on the house.  I called my dealer and he said this is normal.  I'm wondering if we should have a cap on the end of the pipe to prevent this?  Is this normal???

Thanks!


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## Lousyweather (Feb 21, 2009)

guessing here, but it looks like the prevailing wind might be blowing the exhaust back onto the house, or your stove is burning fuel rich/oxygen deficient.....what might help is extending the pipe further from the home, checking the stove, etc.....I dont think a cap wil lhelp.


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## humpin iron (Feb 21, 2009)

spend the $$$ do a full vent up the side of the house.  PS it's not normal


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## jtakeman (Feb 21, 2009)

humpin iron said:
			
		

> spend the $$$ do a full vent up the side of the house.  PS it's not normal



Agree 

Looks like its rich to me! Give it more air!!

jay


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## kinsmanstoves (Feb 21, 2009)

You have issues with your air mix.  I would get your dealer out.  What kind of stove is it?


(Edit) bring in some outside air or atleast something from the basement.

Eric


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## hossthehermit (Feb 21, 2009)

pelletman said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I just had my pellet stove installed this year.  I went outside (first nice day in winter) and noticed a lot of black soot on the house.  I called my dealer and he said this is normal.  I'm wondering if we should have a cap on the end of the pipe to prevent this?  Is this normal???
> 
> Thanks!



It's normal if you're too cheap to run vertical above the roof line


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## stoveguy13 (Feb 21, 2009)

not normal waht stove is it?


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## pelletman (Feb 21, 2009)

The stove is a Harman XXV.  

The dealer actually just came by and recommended that we put up the vertical vent over the roofline.  I'll definitely do that in the spring.  One question though--with the chimney, will that just mean that the black soot will now be all over my roof??? 

I also mentioned what you folks suggested, that the air mix was bad.  I mentioned the outside air kit, but he said that there's problems with those as well.  That creosote can build up on the slide plate and something else, and be more of a pain in the butt.  So, he suggested that I stay away from that.  So, he turned down the feed rate 2, it had been on 3.5.  He said that would help.  I'm sort of at a loss for what else to do.


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## jtakeman (Feb 21, 2009)

If your house is tight, I push for an air kit, At least get the air from the basement or attic area.

edit: Oops, Eric has already mentioned that


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## stoveguy13 (Feb 21, 2009)

even with a hor. vent you should not have soot on the house it is air to fuel issue you may want to start with a good cleaning vent pipe as well.


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## kilbury (Feb 21, 2009)

Definately sounds like a air to fuel issue. By the looks of it you have a cap similar to this, I would chuck the screen at the end as I have come across quite a few that have looked like this. This was the pic after I removed it and had already knocked some ash off. Still taking the exhaust vent above the roofline is a good idea as it will help make some natural draft and in turn a cleaner burn and if the power goes out the draft will carry the smoke out the exhaust instead of leaking into the house.


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## TomPajak (Feb 22, 2009)

I never understood why anyone would put the vent on the side of the house that gets the wind..the installers should have known better and told you this B4 the work began...the pipe to the roof is a great idea as the wind should blow it up and over..


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## jtp10181 (Feb 22, 2009)

We usually tell customers they can go up above the roof to avoid getting soot on the side of the house. Not a single one has opted for it, because of the price. I guess if it bothers them enough later they will come back and get it fixed.


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## TomPajak (Feb 22, 2009)

jtp10181 said:
			
		

> We usually tell customers they can go up above the roof to avoid getting soot on the side of the house. Not a single one has opted for it, because of the price. I guess if it bothers them enough later they will come back and get it fixed.


show them pictures of this and of others that opted NOT to goto roof and I bet you will see more answers changing....


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## krooser (Feb 22, 2009)

You have a fuel to air ratio problem... with all due respect to my fellow pellet heads, there's nothing wrong with venting a stove directly out the wall. Most pellet installs I see are done this way and all the dealers i talked to before I bought my stove told me it's the norm around here.

Here's a pic of my vent after 1 1/2 years of service (just before cleaning my stove).... no soot anywhere (except on the concrete pads... I shake out my vent cap there).


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## missrobo (Feb 22, 2009)

I have a Accentra free standing with a Direct air vent and piping out the side of my house similiar to yours but with what is  called a swivel Horiz. rain cap at the end.  Never had any soot any where on the house.  I'd get a second opinion.


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## MCPO (Feb 22, 2009)

krooser said:
			
		

> You have a fuel to air ratio problem... with all due respect to my fellow pellet heads, there's nothing wrong with venting a stove directly out the wall. Most pellet installs I see are done this way and all the dealers i talked to before I bought my stove told me it's the norm around here.
> 
> Here's a pic of my vent after 1 1/2 years of service (just before cleaning my stove).... no soot anywhere (except on the concrete pads... I shake out my vent cap there).



Looking at the picture above I`d be worrying about sparks exiting the exhaust and contacting the leaves on the ground .


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## Lousyweather (Feb 22, 2009)

jtp10181 said:
			
		

> We usually tell customers they can go up above the roof to avoid getting soot on the side of the house. Not a single one has opted for it, because of the price. I guess if it bothers them enough later they will come back and get it fixed.



Yea, the above is pretty true. Noone wants to pay more than they have to for pipe. Also MANY folks want to minimize the aesthetic affect that a nice long run of pipe seems to effect. Please note as well, with most pellet pipe, there is a maximum distance that one can run pipe at 3", then the diameter must be increased. Some of these "long runs to the roof" could run into this issue as well. Lots of good advice above by Gio, Jtake, Irwin, etc.....I agree to the burning rich/lack of oxygen camp!


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## stoveguy13 (Feb 22, 2009)

the only reason we tend to have the pipe go up is for clearence reasons most people dont want that up the side of there house or the added cost that comes with it if the stove is set up right and keept clean there should be no problem with the hor. vent and the side of the house staying clean.


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## Lousyweather (Feb 22, 2009)

I concur stoveguy. The EXTREME majority of the folks have minimal installs here, very few problems....and the OP had a pretty extreme issue...ive seen none THAT bad....


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## slls (Feb 22, 2009)

You have a stove or pellet problem, it should not black smoke.


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## exoilburner (Feb 22, 2009)

I have been running my pellet burner for about 10 months and there is no sign of residue on my house. Looks like you have a long 90 degree elbow on the end of your PV. Might want to try a short 45. It may help the vent air flow and direct the vent air away from the house. How long is the outside length of your vent pipe? 

Combustion. Do you have long runs of horizontal vent pipe or many elbows? 
Do you have outside air installed? If not is there anything else in your house that is competing with the pellet stove for combustion air; like fireplaces, dryers, range hoods. In the picture, notice there is no smoke coming out of the vent. My pellet burner was burning with an average flame. Do get smoke at start-up and a few puffs now and then but usually no smoke is noticeable. Some of the suggestions in this thread about combustion problems may the issue. How often do you clean the stove and vent pipe?

I have read that one drawback to running the vent pipe up to the roof on the outside of the house is the hot vent pipe that is exposed to the outside temperature will have condensation and is tough to keep clean.


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## investor7952 (Feb 22, 2009)

pelletman said:
			
		

> The stove is a Harman XXV.
> 
> The dealer actually just came by and recommended that we put up the vertical vent over the roofline.  I'll definitely do that in the spring.  One question though--with the chimney, will that just mean that the black soot will now be all over my roof???
> 
> I also mentioned what you folks suggested, that the air mix was bad.  I mentioned the outside air kit, but he said that there's problems with those as well.  That creosote can build up on the slide plate and something else, and be more of a pain in the butt.  So, he suggested that I stay away from that.  So, he turned down the feed rate 2, it had been on 3.5.  He said that would help.  I'm sort of at a loss for what else to do.



Hi
I have a Harmon Accentra insert FEED ALWAYS ON 4-5 ,Outside pipe like yours except 24 inches away from house and an end capp pointing straight down. The side of my house is very clean.Also that side of the house is always windy. The feedrate setting has nothing to do with it.Your dealer doesnt know what he is talking about.The stove will feed at whatever rate it needs to when in room temp. Just for your own knowledge. Take a stop watch and time the feedrate on 2 ,then turn up to 5 .Make sure temp is on around 75. You will find when your stove needs the demand it will feed for 40 seconds on #2 just as it will feed at 40 sec set at #5.
In other words your dealer is a moron for even saying lowering the feedrate will help !!These stove Manf get any idiot to sell and install these stoves then call them Authorized dealers !


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## investor7952 (Feb 22, 2009)

HarmanP68 said:
			
		

> I never understood why anyone would put the vent on the side of the house that gets the wind..the installers should have known better and told you this B4 the work began...the pipe to the roof is a great idea as the wind should blow it up and over..



I like the ease of cleaning the vent. I can clean mine every 2 weeks and it take 5 min or less with the leaf blower trick. If that guy cleaned his vent more often he wouldnt have the side of his house lookingl ike that


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## exoilburner (Feb 22, 2009)

investor7952 said:
			
		

> Hi
> I have a Harmon Accentra insert FEED ALWAYS ON 4-5 ,Outside pipe like yours except 24 inches away from house and an end capp pointing straight down. The side of my house is very clean.Also that side of the house is always windy. The feedrate setting has nothing to do with it.Your dealer doesn't know what he is talking about.The stove will feed at whatever rate it needs to when in room temp. Just for your own knowledge. Take a stop watch and time the feedrate on 2 ,then turn up to 5 .Make sure temp is on around 75. You will find when your stove needs the demand it will feed for 40 seconds on #2 just as it will feed at 40 sec set at #5.
> In other words your dealer is a moron for even saying lowering the feedrate will help !!These stove Manf get any idiot to sell and install these stoves then call them Authorized dealers !



If the FEED ADJUSTER doesn't adjust the feed rate, what does it do? 

If you can't adjust the amount fuel feed, what do you adjust for good fuel/air combustion. Variations of installations and pellet quality seem to demand a way of adjusting the fuel/air mix. How can the stove automatically sense a fuel rich smokey combustion?


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## investor7952 (Feb 23, 2009)

On the Accentra when you are in Room temp mode and your stove is set at 75  and your actual room temp is at 70 it doesnt matter where the feedrate is set at the stove will always feed a 4 sec feed till room temp is reached then the feedrate backs down to whatever it needs to be to maintain the temp in room. Just the oposite when the stove is set to stove temp. The feed rate knob  doesnt come into play at all. When in STOVE TEMP MODE the feed knb can be on 1 or 6 DOESNT MATTER the stove in STOVE TEMP MODE doesnt feed off of the setting you have set. Again this is for the Harmon Accentra stoves.


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## Lousyweather (Feb 23, 2009)

Actually, the feed rate DOES matter, but not how you think it does.  Think of the feed rate as setting the MAXIMUM feed, in a worst-case scenario. The circuitboard and probes actually control how much pellet actually feed, but you can think of the max setting as  a timing in a worst case situation. Lets say the stove was installed out in the front lawn, in sub-zero conditions, and set on Room temp mode. if you set the stove on a feed of 2, then the stove would run for about 20 secs per minute......if you set it on 6, the max setting, it would run without stopping. In a room, the stove usually satisfies the thermostat long before that max setting is reached, so it isnt a big issue, unless hte feed is set far too low, in the misguided attempt to minimize pellet consumption.


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## TomPajak (Feb 23, 2009)

Feedrate doesn't matter on ROOM temp mode...on STOVE temp its VERY important...the stove will feed itself what IT thinks it needs..from a few pellets to a handful if it wants...I have my stove on feedrate 1 and it doesn't turn the auger anymore than when its sets any higher..atleast not on my P68...MAYBE different stove have different control boards that acts differently but on the P68 of mine it DOESN"T care what I set my rate at..it will do what it takes to keep me around my set temp

thats why we bought HARMAN because supposedly they will not waste 1 more pellet then needed..(ok I don't believe that either but a helluva sales pitch nonetheless..lol)


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## pkitfox (Feb 23, 2009)

pelletman said:
			
		

> The stove is a Harman XXV.
> 
> The dealer actually just came by and recommended that we put up the vertical vent over the roofline.  I'll definitely do that in the spring.  One question though--with the chimney, will that just mean that the black soot will now be all over my roof???
> 
> I also mentioned what you folks suggested, that the air mix was bad.  I mentioned the outside air kit, but he said that there's problems with those as well.  That creosote can build up on the slide plate and something else, and be more of a pain in the butt.  So, he suggested that I stay away from that.  So, he turned down the feed rate 2, it had been on 3.5.  He said that would help.  I'm sort of at a loss for what else to do.



I don't understand why your dealer would say that there is a problem with using outside air.  Not using outside air, in a tight house, could cause the stove to burn improperly.  If the fire in the stove does not get enough air, there will be smoke!

Turning the feed rate down to 2 will have an effect when the demand for heat, in either stove temperature mode, or room temperature mode, exceeds the amount of fuel that can be fed when limited by the feed rate 2 setting.  Lowering the feed rate setting tells me he thinks the stove air/fuel mix is wrong.  If lowering the feed rate has an effect on the fuel air mixture, it will only come into play in a limited number of operating conditions (if it matters at all).  You would not adjust feed rate to correct a "smoking" problem.  Was the stove pushing burning pellets off the burn pot lip into the ash pan when using the higher feed rate?  Burning pellets in the ash pan will cause smoke.

Did the dealer set the draft with a magnehelic meter when the stove was test ran after the installation?  I could guess the draft was not set, but that would be unfair to the dealer.  I could also guess that the draft cannot be set to specification because of the lack of an outside air kit, in your particular installation (maybe your house is very air tight as previously mentioned).  Maybe that is an unfair conclusion.  At any rate, I would agree with several others who have said that it looks like the stove is not getting enough air to burn properly.  The dealer needs to fix this.  There is nothing wrong with venting above the roof line.  It would be wrong to vent smoke above the roof line, and think the problem has been fixed.  

Make sure the stove and vent pipe are clean.   There should be no, and I mean zero, visible smoke when your stove is operating, with the exception of some when starting.


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## Lousyweather (Feb 23, 2009)

HarmanP68 said:
			
		

> Feedrate doesn't matter on ROOM temp mode...on STOVE temp its VERY important...the stove will feed itself what IT thinks it needs..from a few pellets to a handful if it wants...I have my stove on feedrate 1 and it doesn't turn the auger anymore than when its sets any higher..atleast not on my P68...MAYBE different stove have different control boards that acts differently but on the P68 of mine it DOESN"T care what I set my rate at..it will do what it takes to keep me around my set temp
> 
> thats why we bought HARMAN because supposedly they will not waste 1 more pellet then needed..(ok I don't believe that either but a helluva sales pitch nonetheless..lol)



Even in room temp it does.....stick yer room temp probe out the window and see what happens!


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## TomPajak (Feb 23, 2009)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

> Actually, the feed rate DOES matter, but not how you think it does.  Think of the feed rate as setting the MAXIMUM feed, in a worst-case scenario. The circuitboard and probes actually control how much pellet actually feed, but you can think of the max setting as  a timing in a worst case situation. Lets say the stove was installed out in the front lawn, in sub-zero conditions, and set on Room temp mode. if you set the stove on a feed of 2, then the stove would run for about 20 secs per minute......if you set it on 6, the max setting, it would run without stopping. In a room, the stove usually satisfies the thermostat long before that max setting is reached, so it isnt a big issue, unless hte feed is set far too low, in the misguided attempt to minimize pellet consumption.



you put that stove outside in room temp mode and it won't care what feedrate you put on it..it will keep feeding itself till it reaches the desired temp..if that probe never reaches the desired temp it will run full bore till it runs out of pellets....

now if by some miracle it heats up the ouside to the desired temp then it will gradually feed itself less and less pellets  irregardless of what feedrate you set it at..afterwards it will just give itself enough pellets to maintain that temp it reached.....
Harman designed this stove to be very easy to use by just setting the temp you want and letting the stove determine what IT THINKS is the best feedrate to give itself..it readjusts the distribution/combustion fan speeds automatically...its a very smart stove
..it could give itself a few pellets to keep it steady at the desired temp or give itself alot of pellets if its starting up OR if someone decided to put it out in say sub-zero weather..OR  stick its probe out a window...



that rule about feedrate at 2 =20 secs is hogwash IMO...
i've ran feedrate 6 with temp 4(Stove Temp Mode)and ran Room Temp Mode 70 degrees with feedrate 6 and guess what???
..it didn't run for 60 secs. in either case...
Room Temp Mode it ran for 22secs and ran less and less as temp reached 70(..afterwards it just fed for 5-10 secs then off for 50-55secs. till it was needed again but only in in manual igniter mode) or it turns off completely in auto igniter mode till the temp drops and then it reignites(btw thats alot of wear and tear on the poor little igniter,just set it in auto to start and flip switch after to manual so it idles and doesn't die out)..

Stove Temp Mode it turned for only 3-5 secs when stove reached set temp...but fed itself the max pellets allowed while it fed for those 3 secs...all while on feedrate 6

now I REALLY don't want to get people pissed off at me but Harman designed a great stove with real crappy instruction on what those numbers are suppose to be for...all we have is heresay(like mine)...
SO HARMAN..MAKES US A DAMN CHART SO WE KNOW SOMEWHAT WHAT THESE SETTING WILL RESULT IN..PLZ(yes I know not all pellets are the same)BUT GIMME A ROUNDABOUT FIGURE ....

Let the negative comments commence.........


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## Lousyweather (Feb 23, 2009)

Im thinking we agree, harmanP68........my point is, you have to put the stove in a situation where it CANT heat up the area.....so, a setting of 6, with the probe outside WILL result in that stove never stopping the feeding of pellets.....again, the feed rate is just setting the MAX feedrate, not the minimum, not how much it will actually feed, thats calculated by the probes and circuitboard. You arent seeing any difference with your different settings because the heat DEMAND isnt there.....we also agree that the harman explanation of feed rate stinks......feed rate of 1=MAX feed of 10 secs, etc.....


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## TomPajak (Feb 23, 2009)

my point is that even if you put that probe outside and on feedrate of 1 the stove will run constantly till its either runs out of pellets or it reaches the set temp....the feedrate means NOTHING.. the STOVE WILL override it all the time in Room Temp Mode


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## timjk69 (Feb 24, 2009)

As for locating the vent on the side with the prevailing wind. A friend put his vent downwind side of the house. The turbulence on that side or the house kept the exhaust hanging close to the siding and created a simaller mess so that doesn't work either. Given the choice, I'd pick the windy side myself.

Tim


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## Lousyweather (Feb 24, 2009)

HarmanP68 said:
			
		

> my point is that even if you put that probe outside and on feedrate of 1 the stove will run constantly till its either runs out of pellets or it reaches the set temp....the feedrate means NOTHING.. the STOVE WILL override it all the time in Room Temp Mode



heh, just tried it in my P61! Stuck the probe out my window, feed set on room temp and 2.......fed for 22 seconds......then I put it on 6......didnt stop feeding....cold tonight too.....check it on yours.....


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## TomPajak (Feb 24, 2009)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

> HarmanP68 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 we are getting off topic so Im starting another topic..not fair to this guy if we are bickering on HIS topic..sorry folks...


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## investor7952 (Feb 25, 2009)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

> HarmanP68 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The Harmon will feed at the max rate until room temp that is set is met. On most cold northern NJ nights that never happens so my stove is always feeding Max feed .


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## investor7952 (Feb 25, 2009)

HarmanP68 said:
			
		

> Lousyweather said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Have you ever had your stove feed for more than 40 sec on roomtemp? 
You can be on 1 or 6 on 90 degrees and stove will never feed for  more that 40 sec for max feed rate.


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