# Question for everyone that wants to answer.  Oh boy this will fire a lot of people up.



## kinsmanstoves (Sep 15, 2011)

I want to ask everyone why they did not buy a Harman or QuadraFire stove but settled for another brand? Yes I am a dealer for Harman, QuadraFire, and Heatilator stoves.   I have sold other brands and I am familiar with most of the common problems related to each brand of stove.  I am aware that there is also a slight price difference in some of the units but I want to address that issue as it comes up, because it will.

I have had numerous people come into the store to "upgrade" to a Harman or QuadraFire. I ask them this question and these are the main answers.

The top answers I get are,
1.) They were just getting into the pellet stove area and they were not aware of the difference of quality in the manufacturers of stoves. 

2.) They got a good deal so bought the unit they have.

I will leave it at this for now and see what answers I get.

Thanks
Eric


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## richkorn (Sep 15, 2011)

My first choice was a Harman XXV but they were on back order from my closest Harman dealer for like 4 months (3 years ago when fuel oil shot up). So my second choice was the Lopi Leyden from the same dealer, which I purchased and am very happy with it.

The Quad Castille was also a second choice but I did not go to that dealer, although they are very close to me, since I already decided on the Lopi from dealer #1.


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## JHASS (Sep 15, 2011)

I spent 2 years looking for a multi-fuel stove. After much research into many stoves including Harman and Quadrafire and 
many more the Enviro won out. Yes price did play into it but wasn't the only factor. I did not see where either stove manufacturer
offered one with a stirrer, I could be wrong with that statement but at the time I couldn't find one.


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## buildingmaint (Sep 15, 2011)

My friend has a Big E , and he liked it. I looked at Harman stoves , and my friend bought one, and I must say it is beefyier then my Big E, but it came with a 1 bag hopper. My Big E holds 3 ,so I don't have to feed it every day. Price, I bought my Big E in Washington state, had it shipped with all piping , cheaper then  I could buy a stove near by, and I'm not talking $100.00 or $200.00 , more like $700.00.


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 15, 2011)

Nice, one hour into this and no death threats, I like it.  This is great info, please keep it going.

Eric


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## doghouse (Sep 15, 2011)

Mostly price. 

Death threat (couldn't resist).   :coolmad:


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## chrisasst (Sep 15, 2011)

Lack of knowledge when I had a last minute decision to buy a stove for the first time.  Right now the prices and /or lack of funds.  I regret to this day ( 4 years later ) not taking the time to educate my self on pellet stoves before I bought one.


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## jdempsey (Sep 15, 2011)

In my research for a stove i specifically was wanting a multifuel unit. I read reviews from the top of the line stoves to the bottom of the barrel. Sure price played a role on my purchase of an Englander unit. Who does not want to save money. But on the same hand if the money saved will lead to probs down the road, well i want no part of that.

Anything i buy online i read reviews and tons of info on different units. Yes i think harmon makes some of the best looking and probably most electronically advance stoves in the market but thats alot of cash. And looks is secondary to function for me. Before i purchased the 10-CPM i could find practically no info or reviews online until i happen onto this forum. Seems several on here recommend and love theirs and i found out that a guy across town has a 10-CPM i asked his opinion and he really liked his had no probs. 

Now if the stove i actually bought was being reviewed as being junk or having alot of probs i would have continued looking for something else. Who knows maybe one day ill get a top of the line stove. Im new to this game and ill cut my teeth on the cheaper unit i have, and use the saved cash for pellets and other family necessities.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Sep 15, 2011)

My dealer did not sell  Harman's. It came down to the one I got and a St. croix.  The deciding factor was hopper size and btu potential.   I would put hopper size as my first priority next go around.  I don't care much for which brand.  I certainly am not an expert but they all seem very similar to me.  Computer, two blowers, and an auger.


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## sinnian (Sep 15, 2011)

I'll chime in from the boiler front...

Bad reviews, especially the ignitor.  As well as, poor customer service/support.  That was back in '08.  Not sure if either have changed.


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## Don2222 (Sep 15, 2011)

Hello

Well I really like the 115 lb hopper and also the reliability. Also the historical records show that reliability was a major concern on improvements. Like going from a 250 watt to 200 watt igniter so it would last longer.

I understand the Harmon's use a 306 watt igniter so let's take that for an example.

Why 306 watts? Does Harmon have any plans to go less for reliability?

Can you or I put in a lower wattage igniter into any of the Harmon Models for more reliability?

Reference the Igniter heavan post
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/78371/


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## GrahamInVa (Sep 15, 2011)

I did not buy a Harman or any other brand mainly because of price. I could buy almost two stoves for the price of one Harman.  I researched and found great reviews on the stove I purchased and also their great customer service, which is hard to come buy these days. Not that Harman's or others are any different.

With that said.. i'm new at this..

EDIT: Also, I didn't really see a Harman and I liked the looks of too much. I wanted a big bay window and didn't like the look of the Advance.


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## timss13 (Sep 15, 2011)

I went with Quad Mt Vernon insert for a few reasons. Quality, appearance and great dealer to work with were at the top of the list.  This is a centerpiece in our living room so I wanted something that would work with the old colonial farmhouse look.  This is our 4th season with it and still love it.

I did not consider any other than Quad and Harman since my choices were limited (insert rather than free standing)


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 15, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> Well I really like the 115 lb hopper and also the reliability. Also the historical records show that reliability was a major concern on improvements. Like going from a 250 watt to 200 watt igniter so it would last longer.
> 
> ...



From what I heard from the Harman techs when I was at the plant they briefly tried a different ignitor and that is the one that failed.  They have since went to the 306 watt ignitor and that is the one they are staying with.  This pictures you posted will not work in the Harman stoves.  Harman has an air pump aasisted electric element in some of their units.


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## JBiBBs5 (Sep 15, 2011)

I did a lot of research and almost purchased a Harman P43. Then I did some more research and decided I wanted a multi--fuel stove. Found a great deal on a very sharp looking Enviro M55C. Considering I'll be paying just about the same I would have for the P43, I feel like I'm getting a lot more bang for my buck.


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## festerw (Sep 15, 2011)

When I bought my Englander it was over a $1000 cheaper than any other stove I considered fully aware it was a lower end stove I jumped and haven't been sorry.

Other than 1 exhaust blower and a lower auger assembly and motor (replaced under warranty last year) I've been very happy with its performance having run 24/7 for the last 5 years.


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## jtakeman (Sep 15, 2011)

I saved a bunch over the P68 with my Omega! So put me down for price. And the plus is it will eat the same diet as the P45, But with more hoss power!


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## imacman (Sep 15, 2011)

I bought my first stove (Avalon Astoria) used, from a local dealer who was going out of business.  Main reason was price, but I had read some reviews that they made a good stove. 

The decision on the Englander was because of superior customer service, multi fuel, price.


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## unklechuckles19 (Sep 16, 2011)

We just got done with our biggest advertising events of the year here, a local fair (approx. 151,000 people through the gates this year and about 80% of our total stove sales come from here) and I do a lot of talking to folks who have all kinds of stoves.  When I speak with these folks I often ask them what drove them towards a stove OTHER than the Harman, St. Croix, Quad etc. and half of the answers I get are "I wish I would have researched more, I bought the first one I saw" and "price".  I can also speak for my mother, who purchased her Thelin based almost solely on the look.  After looking at the Harman's, the Quad's, the St. Croix's she settled on the Thelin because of its looks.  They all had auto ignition, all ran on a thermostat, so they were all the same except for looks.  I will note this, she purchased the stove before I worked in the industry, so I wasn't an influence.


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## ebengel (Sep 16, 2011)

When we started looking 3 years ago we went to our closest dealer, who is a Harman dealer. They did not want to be bothered talking to us. So we figured if that is the attitude before the sale how bad will it be after the sale. We went to another dealer about 20 miles away who handled Quad's, saw the Thelin while we were there and loved it. They installed it and have been great with any info and parts that we have needed since.


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## DMZX (Sep 16, 2011)

I was a total noob to pellet stove when I begin looking around for one.  

First stop was to look at Home Depot.  They sold Englanders special order only, but when I talked to the contract guys about lining up an install they shrugged.  They gave me the feeling that they had other more important things to do.  Whatever.

Next stop was a dealer that was 50+ miles away and sold Quadra-Fire.  When I got to his shop he was out and his 20 something son kept saying his Dad would be right back.  The dealer also sold and repaired chainsaws, and his son was the chainsaw guy as he seemed to know nothing about the pellet stoves in the very cluttered showroom.  He gave me a pamphlet to look at.   I waited around for about 30 minutes and told him I would come back later.  I noticed that the outside of the shop looked like a huge chainsaw/wood stove/motorcycle bone yard.  Unimpressed and impatient, I did not go back.

Next stop was a masonry guy that was in the Yellow Pages under pellet stoves.  He sold a brand I was unfamiliar with, but said he could do the hearth and chimney install as long as he did not have to climb on the roof, stating he was too old for that and had a bad heart.  Pass.

Next stop was a Lopi dealer, I found looking in the Nickel classified ads, that was nearby, selling out of his farm implement shop.  His wife owned the business.  They were quite helpful and had  a list of several contractors that could do the installation.  They gave me a estimate on the stove, accessories and installation, which even though it was nearly $1k than I had budgeted for but, I accepted it for these reasons:

     -I got a good quality stove that fit my needs perfectly
     -I got very high quality pipe and hearth
     -They had a good supply of parts and could provide maintenance support as needed
     -They seemed to want my business, were very friendly and very helpful
     -They sold Bear Mt pellets

1 month later my stove was set up and ready for fire.


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## stallau (Sep 16, 2011)

You covered my reasons pretty well already. It was my first stove and it would have been about $500 - $1000 over my Big E. I had one child in college and another headed shortly so money was a driving factor but since I used 5 tons of pellets but just 93 gallons of oil it has definitely helped cover college. I can see and feel the difference as I look after having my stove but mine is in the basement and if I had it in the living area I would definitely want a different stove due to the volume of the fans.

I do also like the 3 bag fill which means I can go a few days at a time even though I do check it daily anyways.


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## tjnamtiw (Sep 16, 2011)

We wanted inserts.  The closest dealer sells Harmans and wouldn't budge on the HIGH price.  Also, the salesman didn't know even how to open the door let alone how to do the maintenance.  Had no idea if they installed them either.  So I got out of there and went to another dealer farther away but he had 6 or 8 (can't remember) stoves hooked up and fired each one up for us to show us the operation of each and the plus or minuses.  Also he had a whole wall of repair manuals for each brand and showed up his certificates from his visits to the factories' tech classes.  Very knowledgeable.  He also heated his house next door with an AE.  We were able to get both stoves with the rebates that were still going on with Quad at the time (2+ yrs ago).  They did both installs including complete relines plus some special 'tin knocking' to get the Sante Fe to fit within my narrow oak mantle for $900 including 1 1/2 hour drive each way and a ton of pellets.

I'm a hands-on engineering manager (retired) and trained in the Navy in nuke power, electrical, electronics, etc so I've been able to understand the operation of the stoves and do what little (knock on wood) troubleshooting was necessary.  To me, a knowledgeable service dept is a must for those less handy or too old to screw with it, which is coming into my realm shortly!  Price is not everything with these beasts, as you know.  I'm happy with my Quads.  Not overly impressed with the Chinese workmanship but they are simple and perform adequately.  My only regret is that I didn't put a 1200 in place of the Sante Fe to get a few more BTU'S.


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## VTrider (Sep 16, 2011)

For me, I was looking for

* Quality product / stove which meets my needs
* Dealer Support / relationship
* Price

I have two well established Harmon and Enviro dealers within 20 minutes.  Since I needed a big A$$, no frills, well-built, 60,00btu+ pellet stove with a great track record, the choice was easy - Enviro Maxx or Harmon P68

It's my opinion that 'either' stove would have met my needs, but I went with the Enviro Maxx for the following reasons:


* Maxx comes with 130lb hopper compared to 76lb hopper on the p68 (Harmon hopper extension is available to 136lb, this is extra = more cash)
* I wouldn't say significantly, but purchase price on the Maxx was less than the P68 and this did factor in on this case
* I've been an existing Enviro pellet stove owner (Windsor model) for 7+ years and they haven't let me down, very impressed w/company
* Most importantly (for me), is that the Enviro dealer is a family owned business who's been in the community for a long time with a well established customer support record.  I'm fairly independent with a decent set of DIY skills, but I know if I'm in a jam - my dealer will come through for me.


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## Nicholas440 (Sep 16, 2011)

I was totally new to the pellet world and knew absolutely nothing about them.  I have  a Quad Castile insert, for 3 years now,    and I hope I can unload it next year and buy an insert that holds 40 lbs of pellets or more,  runs quiet,  does not howl, sqeak, rattle,  or growl, has quiet fans and gives me some control over the airflow and not just a 3 position rocker switch.   Some added info, I take meticulous care of my Quad , it looks as clean and new today as it did when I had it installed,  I tear it down every year, clean and repaint the interior as well. But I'm just not happy with it.

 In my opinion the Quads are over rated and not very well designed.  The Quad was also more expensive than other brands I looked at when I bought it.  And as I said  when I bought it I did not know a thing about how they worked , what to look for etc .   Now I have the knowledge thanks to this forum and my next insert will be one that I can be happy with.  My Quad will most likely end up on Craigslist soon.


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## fishsniffer (Sep 16, 2011)

I honestly didn't even consider other stoves than the Lopi Yankee Bay I purchased secondhand. 

When I got my house, I purchased a Lopi wood burning stove. The wife didn't enjoy the process of preparing firewood so we made the decision to switch to pellet fuel. It was also a bonus that Lopi is local and we were very satisfied with the woodburning stove we had from them.


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## roadrunnermoore (Sep 16, 2011)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> I want to ask everyone why they did not buy a Harman or QuadraFire stove but settled for another brand? Yes I am a dealer for Harman, QuadraFire, and Heatilator stoves.   I have sold other brands and I am familiar with most of the common problems related to each brand of stove.  I am aware that there is also a slight price difference in some of the units but I want to address that issue as it comes up, because it will.
> 
> I have had numerous people come into the store to "upgrade" to a Harman or QuadraFire. I ask them this question and these are the main answers.
> 
> ...



Wanted an insert, multifuel, big enough to heat a 2400 sq ft colonial style house. Narrowed it down to the Mt. Vernon AE and the Enviro M55 cast insert. Came down to 2 things.

1. Felt more comfortable with the Enviro dealer I was dealing with.

2. The Mt. Vernon was made in China.  

I know, I've heard the arguments about most of the electronics are made in China anyway. I know that the M55 is made in Canada, not the US.  It may sounds corny, but I really do try to shop for products made in America, or at least North America.


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 16, 2011)

Wow, I am getting a lot of good information.  Please keep it coming and THANKS.

Thanks again
Eric


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## tjnamtiw (Sep 16, 2011)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> Wow, I am getting a lot of good information.  Please keep it coming and THANKS.
> 
> Thanks again
> Eric



It's been really interesting reading all these and would be a perfect 'sticky' for people looking to buy their first stove.  Of course, it might confuse them too since there seems to be both extremes on some models, for instance the Castille.  Still it's a wealth of info.  Good subject!


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## save$ (Sep 16, 2011)

Got my stove in 2008,  back then,  Harman was taking orders, but left their distributors high and dry when it came to delivery.  Sure, I would have liked to have a Harman.  After all, their evaluations are usually tops.  We like the Franklin stove style like the new Harman XXV
In the end, I got a stove that had a good sale price.  In the past three years, it has been problem free and has been a good "space heater" able to heat my entire home except for the very coldest months and then with only a little furnace assistance.  My stove is nothing special to look at, but it is paid for and is a real work horse at keeping us nice and warm.  Service.  I haven't needed it, but my installation was so flawed I wouldn't dare go back to the dealer.  My understanding is that he has been dumped by the distributor. (That business has been selling fuel and heating equipment for nearly 100 years.)


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## BrotherBart (Sep 16, 2011)

Maybe folks don't think they "settled" for something other than a Harman or Quad.  :coolsmirk:


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## jimbom (Sep 16, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Maybe folks don't think they "settled" for something other than a Harman or Quad.  :coolsmirk:



+1  That was what I was thinking - formulation of the question was interesting.


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## 3650 (Sep 16, 2011)

I just bought a used Harman Accentra.  Its the only way I could afford one.  Prior to that I had a used Quad Mt Vernon.  No way I could have afforded a new one of those either.  The only stove I have bought new out of the 5 I have owned has been an Amaizeblaze and I didnt get it hooked up before corn went through the ceiling so I didnt use it.  

I've had the Harman just a week now and only test fired it on the porch.  I have taken it apart to clean it and I can say that it is by far a much better thought out and put together stove then the Quad.  Every part fits together much nicer and the materials used seem to be much beefier.  It's definately much more quieter but it doesn't put out the btu's that the Quad does.  60.000 for the Quad and 40,000 for the Harman.

So far I like the Harman much more then the Quad, but let me comment later in the middle Of a January cold snap after a few months of burning and see where I stand.

If price wasn't an issue I'd buy a Harman, then a Quad or if I was really rich I'd buy one of those European deals or maybe a soapstone pellet stove.  If I was going to purchase a new stove on my current budget I would wait until the spring when the end of season sales are on and buy something from the ag stores or the big box stores.  I saw brand new stoves going for as little as $500 at Big R's and Rural King last spring.  Those same stoves have $1500 price tags on them now.

Theres just no way I could walk into a dealer and purchase something off the floor at their prices.  A few years ago I went to a dealer and looked at Cumberland stoves.  $2850 for a new one.  I said thanks for the demo and found a used one for $700.  I use it as my back up stove now.


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## Mackdog (Sep 16, 2011)

We DID buy a Harmon and kind of wonder if we would have been better off not to. We bought the Harmon P68 for the heat range, our home is 2816 sq ft.  In the middle of the second season, the ignitor went and then the distribution fan went in the middle of the 3rd season. Add to that the fact that even though the fan is under warranty, the dealer charges a service fee of $100 to come out and change it...and I wonder if we would be better off with a less expensive brand and also NOT buying from the same dealer either!  I would have liked to have done more research before buying but seeing that propane was $1000 per month the previous winter (2007/2008) so my husband got impulsive and dove in and bought it, lol.


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## CelciusMaximus (Sep 16, 2011)

hopper size is almost irrelevant. if you burn 3 tons  a season you still have to add 3 tons to your stove no matter what size the hopper is


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## swalz (Sep 16, 2011)

I bought the Harman XXV because of all the research I did and wish I had not. Nice stove but the dealership sold the business shortly after and then there was no support (they lost Harman and cold no longer sell).  Support, reputation and the price at the time was the reason I bought. Had to have the auger tube and burn pot replaced and cost me close to $240.00 in labor because of no Harman dealer close and Harman would only allow so much in reimbursement.  

Support and price were my reason for buying, so much for the support.

Still have a controller board issue where if I touch the fan speed it cuts off. Tried to get it replaced but Harman kept telling me the board is not the issue, so now I have to live with it since it is no longer under warranty.


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## JBiBBs5 (Sep 16, 2011)

CelciusMaximus said:
			
		

> hopper size is almost irrelevant. if you burn 3 tons  a season you still have to add 3 tons to your stove no matter what size the hopper is



Of course hopper size is relevant. If you burn 40 lbs a day and your hopper holds 40lbs you're filling it everyday. If your hopper holds 80lbs you're filling it every other day.

The hopper size didn't matter much to me but it definitely does to some.


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## krooser (Sep 16, 2011)

Price...

I THOUGHT I needed a Harman... until I saw the price tag.... geez!

I bought my used St. Croix for $1100.00 and have never  looked back... needed an ignitor last year and a new burn pot this year.... no other problems since I bought it in 2006? It's now 11 years old...

With Harman's "customer no service" attitude it will be a cold day before they get my business.

When i was shopping around, my local dealer always came across as "pushy" and "bragging" about their stoves and service (I looked at stove for about three years before pulling the trigger).... after my stove didn't want to run after my first ton I called for service help. The tech came over "on time", cleaned the stove, did the 'leaf blower trick' and voila! a stove that runs like new! NOW I was sold on the dealer...

I can honestly say right now that a good dealer can make all the difference in the world in the pellet stove owning experience...


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## IHATEPROPANE (Sep 16, 2011)

CelciusMaximus said:
			
		

> hopper size is almost irrelevant. if you burn 3 tons  a season you still have to add 3 tons to your stove no matter what size the hopper is



Whats relevent and not is person specific.   I use my stove for my primary heat.  I can fill it and leave it for the weekend without worrying about it running out.  Hopper size is first on my list.


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## jtakeman (Sep 16, 2011)

IHATEPROPANE said:
			
		

> CelciusMaximus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not having to fill my hopper 2 to 3 times a day is O' so handy/dandy to me. I fill it once every day and even on the coldest I don't need to rush home to be sure its not gonna run out! Bigger is better IMHO! Second only to the multifuel feature in the overall picture.


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## gck978 (Sep 16, 2011)

i have a avalalon astoria insert puts out great heat, first went to a harmon dealer they didnt want to answer any questions that we had and if they did gave us attitude so we went else where and bought the avalon this iis the first pellet stove that we owned. bought stove before i knew about this site. would i buy another yes but from another dealer .


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## stoveguy2esw (Sep 16, 2011)

i think it boils down to a couple of things for the most part;

looks, price point, type of service package would be the biggies IMHO.

*if you have a minute i hope you will read the section below, i dont do this often but here it is.*

*"SHAMELESS PLUG"* one other thing is in this day and time an American made product is also a selling point. not saying we are the only one but ESW stoves are all built here in Va. with American steel by American workers. we get our castings from VC in Bethel, in full disclosure i will say our fans in our pellet stoves are not all american made but this is more due to not having a US blower company that can handle the quantity at the quality we ask for(at least this is what im told) but our control system which i would put up against anything in the industry is manufactured by a small local company just across the river in Lynchburg Va. our machined parts likewise are done by a local shop. glass from corning in new york, trim parts (brass trim nickel etc are from a company in NC, as are our gaskets. in a nutshell we are as American made as feasible.

now, im not one to "blow my own horn" so to speak, i feel like my stoves speak volumes for themselves. but having the opportunity to extoll and commend the hard work done by people who turn out upwards of 30K units annually at a high degree of quality year after year, welding in all that gear on during the summer days where it gets to 100F by 10 am in the shop, finish department workers in a similar environment, a shipping department that packages and ships sometimes upwards of a thousand packages a day (we got a lot of stoves out there) making virtually no mistakes (this shipping department is all hands on , no automation) my service department, many of them working all summer building stoves , then coming to my service  call center to help folks with customer support in the winter (they dont get a break in the action at all) the ladies in the office that orchestrate the dance of orders and accounts and such should be mentioned as well, we'd be a mess without them as well. the sales staff who literally drive all over north america here and in canada doing product knowledge training with dealers for days and weeks at a time (i couldnt do it) away from home and family. essentially we're a great big team, we have that mentality as well, team effort and a winning team effort at that. i couldnt work for a better company.


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## Nicholas440 (Sep 17, 2011)

I like this thread  it gives one a good perspective of how each person feels about  why they bought the stove they have or why they would have picked another brand.  

I also did not know the M55 is made in Canada,  I was glad to learn that since I'm considering buying one soon. I'd like to avoid anything that is made in China if possible.  Every Canadian product I have owned was fantastic and build very well.  

On a side note I just threw out another automatic coffee maker that lasted about 6 months, and the burner just quit, and of course it's another product of China.  The coffee maker I had  20 years ago was made in the USA, and it ran for 15 years until one day I knocked it off the kitchen counter by accident and broke it.  But if you're my age or therebouts  I dont have to tell you how reliable any Chinese product is. 


Keep the comments coming in,   and thanks  to Eric for a great thread.  I like hearing what stoves the guys and gals own here in the forum and how they feel about them, and what problems if any they have.


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## bookpile (Sep 17, 2011)

When we bought this house 2 years ago there was a 2000 Englander 25 installed in the basement. We were excited to have a pellet stove until we actually tried heating with it. The lack of auto igniter and a real ash pan made this stove quite a chore. My wife and I are gone for 12 hours a day so we didn't have time to sit and tinker with the thing. Without daily cleaning we would come home and it would literally put itself out because of ash buildup in the burn pot. Note this is just my opinion before people jump in with all kinds of stuff about how I must not have cleaned my stove properly and such.

I than purchased a Harman Accentra Insert off of CL for $1500 for the upstairs. This thing is the real deal, it's design with a burn pot that the ashes actually gets pushed out of lets me run it 24/7, open the door once a day to scrape the put, and shutting it down once a weekend for thorough cleaning. 

Next I bought a Quadra fire Santa Fe off CL for $400 to replace the Englander in the basement. While better than the Englander, it's no Harman. The sheet metal sides are cheap and don't line up. If you need to open the door for any reason, the latch is poor designed and you have to open up both sides to get at it. It's also extremely hot if the stove has been on. The burn pot does have a trap door but it's not as good as one that pushes the ash out on it's own. I understand that the Santa Fe is their lower model.

I think as with anything else in life it all depends on what you're looking for. The Englander just needed to much babysitting for our current schedule and probably caused more frustration than warmth. The Harman while not perfect provides much more worry free operation.


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## EarlyMan (Sep 17, 2011)

My .02...
We were replacing a propane insert (which gave off practically no heat), so we had to get an insert as opposed to a free standing unit. Initially we were looking at a Harman Accentra insert, but I REALLY didn't like the dealership. Example: the OWNER came out to do a site inspection ($35.00). He said he had been in the business for 20 years - a real PRO. He quoted me a package price (stove, pipe through the roof, installation, etc.) It seemed like a good deal, so I wrote him a deposit check. 2 days later, his office person calls me and says that this PRO dealer/owner somehow forgot to add in the installation cost to the contract, so the total price of the package would be $856.00 MORE. WRONG. I went down to the store the next day and got my deposit check back.

Next I called the other big dealer in the area and had him come out to do a site inspection (free). I was leaning towards the Quadrafire Castile insert. When I told him I wanted to heat my entire house with only the stove and when he saw that my livingroom had 17' ceilings, he told me flat out that the Castile wasn't up to the task. He told me that he has the Mt Vernon insert in his own house (I've since seen pictures that bear out his claim) and that it heats his entire house without a problem. Well, the Mt Vernon was definitely more than we had budgeted for the project, but when we considered that this was a long term investment, we decided to bite the bullet.

So, having a unit that was up to the task and reliable was #1, looks was #2, the dealer's attitude and knowledge was #3. In this case, price came in last.

EarlyMan


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## Ironhorse74 (Sep 17, 2011)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> I want to ask everyone why they did not buy a Harman or QuadraFire stove but settled for another brand? Yes I am a dealer for Harman, QuadraFire, and Heatilator stoves.   I have sold other brands and I am familiar with most of the common problems related to each brand of stove.  I am aware that there is also a slight price difference in some of the units but I want to address that issue as it comes up, because it will.
> Thanks
> Eric



I have always considered Quad a step down. Now for sure a major step down. Never saw the value in Harman vastly over rated in my humble opinion.

Brad


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## Dodge (Sep 17, 2011)

4yrs ago I was looking for an alternate heating source for my ohw system.  I settled on a pellet stove for my situation, i used the internet to help in making my decision. the Breckwell Big E came up as a good reliable econonmical stove. It had good reivews, good options and a great price and so far good performance (knocking on wood). After a few rookie seasons I am pleased with my decision.


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 17, 2011)

I am not trying to down grade any stove. I only bash one stove line on very rear occasion and I am more than willing to explain why to anyone that asks. 

I started this topic to get this response and I like what I have heard. A couple people responded in a way I also wanted to hear. I will say this that I think Harman is the best stove out there hands down. That is my opinion and I know it is a Ford vs. Chevy argument and I am willing to argue all day long, ask my Bride.

But thanks all that did take time out of their busy day to answer. I liked EVERYONE'S opinion and it will help me.

Yes thanks again and please keep responding.

Eric

Relay all death threats or further discussion to 330-448-0300. How many other people will post their phone number here? Most will not even use their born on name.


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## hossthehermit (Sep 17, 2011)

Looked like the St. Croix was a better unit for what I wanted it to do, and at a better price. No regrets.


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## tonyd (Sep 17, 2011)

The burn pot on the Harman makes better sense to me.


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## stovelark (Sep 18, 2011)

I see you are a dealer.  I wonder why anyone would ask this question?  I worked at a huge Quad/Jotul/Hearthstone store, of course these stoves were the "best available then".  I now mainly deal with Enviro, Breckwell, St.Croix, and Hudson River pellet stoves.  We work on (clean, service and install) wood, gas and pellet stoves.  Of the stoves mentioned, Enviro easily offers the best value out there.  Breckwell makes a nice, expensive, dated looking stove.  Enviro makes a couple of models for Hudson River now, thats all I"d suggest that one look at too.  Quads were great stoves, but have gotten expensive.  Harman makes a nice stove, but expensive.  Service is not as easy either, but to be fair, we don't work on many.  I also find Whitfields to be extremely nice stoves (not in production anymore), but they were expensive at the time too.  Overall, from install to service to purchasing, It'll be hard to beat Enviro's empress for small cast, Quad's 1200CB and Enviro's EF3 for BTU to dollar spent to reliability and the best stove available from looks and cost is the Enviro M55 steel or cast.  One last comment, buy what you can, use good pellet (Hamers, Okies, Cleanfire, Clear Choice,) clean them appropriately and they ALL will work well.  Good luck to all.  

       Stovelark
       Enviro Empress 
       Enviro EF3
       Enviro Kodiak Wood FS


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## philbrick (Sep 18, 2011)

When we started looking 3 years ago we went to our closest dealer, who is a Harman dealer. They did not want to be bothered talking to us. So we figured if that is the attitude before the sale how bad will it be after the sale. WOW..same thing with me,to me it sounded like he couldn't wait until i left the store


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## Estarrio (Sep 18, 2011)

I looked at a Harman first.  The local dealer didn't seem very knowledgeable.  I was in sticker shock when I saw the price.

I did a little research and ended up with an Enviro.  I saved quite a bit of money, and ended up with a very reliable stove.


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## DexterDay (Sep 18, 2011)

Love my Quad CB 1200. But I look forward to a true multi fuel in my future.  This stove has served well and will do well this last season. Great learning stove. I plan to get an Enviro Maxx-M (Omega if I can get one) or the Englander 10-CPM. Nothing against Harman. They have all got pretty good reviews.  All except the PC-45. Have read numerous complaints a out them here and in the iburncorn Forums.

Harman is top notch. But its all in what you want.

Englander has the best customer service.  Hands down.

My dealer I got my Quad from, is going out of business by the end of the year. He also sold Harmans. Many in my area are SOL on warranties. 
Thats my opinion. Is Harman a class act? Absolutely!  

But are there options that may better suite someone?  Yes. 

My .02 cents.


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## Enigma869 (Sep 18, 2011)

When I decided to purchase my first pellet stove last year, I did a bit of research (as I have a propensity for doing before any purchase).  All the research I did led me to Harman.  I couldn't even really find non-Harman dealers to say anything bad about Harmans.  In fact, the only real criticism I've ever heard about Harman is that they're a bit pricey (which they are).  I purchased the Accentra last year and feel as though I made a great purchase.  I was going to purchase the P68, but needed an insert.  The P68 is one of the only products that I've ever seen Consumer Reports rank 99 out of 100 on their score card.  I should also state that I've always been of the belief that you almost always get what you pay for.  There is a reason a Tempur-Pedic mattress costs about three times what an average "higher end", traditional, inner spring mattress sells for.

John


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## Countryboymo (Sep 18, 2011)

I found a good deal on a quadrafire castile on a swap and shop on the radio and the main excuse was for back up heat in case of an ice storm.  I also have an addiction to wood heat from growing up around it.  I have to say my little quad is awesome on the eyes with the red porcelain finish and does a pretty darn good job in the basement for a small stove.  I would like to replace it someday and when I do I think a multi fuel Englander will win.  I really like the look of the Harman units and some of the features but the customer service tends to totally suck unless the dealer is awesome.  I am also Union and the dollar I make here makes the most impact if I make an attempt to keep it here.


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## EarlyMan (Sep 18, 2011)

[/quote]

I have always considered Quad a step down. Now for sure a major step down. Never saw the value in Harman vastly over rated in my humble opinion.

Brad[/quote]

If you don't mind me asking - a major step down from what?  And why "now for sure a major step down"? Is there something we should all know that we don't? It's probably a good idea if you make a statement like that that you include some info to clarify it. Inquiring minds want to know.  :roll: 

EarlyMan


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## Countryboymo (Sep 18, 2011)

I don't see my Quad as a step down from anything.  It has a porcelain finish... auto ignition...ash pan with a rod dump burn pot.  I can do the daily/weekly cleanings without any headaches.  The way it fits together has a little to be desired but other than that it runs out good.  I just would like a multifuel stove is the only reason I would move from it.


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## Xena (Sep 19, 2011)

Availability
Reliability
Price


Stoves were selling like hotcakes at the time of my purchase.
A friend got a Harman P38 but I didn't care for it as I wanted some with more
features particularly auto start and a bigger hopper.  A comparable new Harman stove would have cost about a grand
more than I paid and I would have had to wait six months for it. (I was shopping in Sept/Oct)
By then the heating season would have been over.   Read reviews on
the internet of the Prescott and was confident it was the right stove
for me.   Never looked back no regrets.  It's a heat monster and
seven years later it still runs like a swiss watch. Lovin it. I made the right choice for my needs
and also don't feel like I "settled" for something that wasn't as good.
Imo there are many stove Mfg'ers that are the "best", not one.


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## jdempsey (Sep 19, 2011)

While reading thru all the posts seems harmon dealers have been mention alot to snub their noses at people. 

I find this odd. Almost seems like they dont want your business.


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 19, 2011)

jdempsey said:
			
		

> While reading thru all the posts seems harmon dealers have been mention alot to snub their noses at people.
> 
> I find this odd. Almost seems like they dont want your business.



I have met a lot of Harman Dealers and spoke to customers that have shopped around.  I do not see that meeting the dealers.  Yes I have also heard of dealer issues and another dealer close to me fits that description.  I have mentioned this to my distributor.  One thing I have to say I do get a lot of business from people walking out of their showroom and driving about 68 miles due south.  That is sad because in today's economy we dealers need every customer that we can.  We are not turning down work.  We will make it work and do the job to code.

Eric


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## Cincinnati Kid (Sep 19, 2011)

I called a Harman dealer earlier this month in the metro Cincinnati area and told them I was going to purchase two Harman stoves (a P-43 and an Accentra insert).  I explained I had a P-38 and an Accnetra insert but lost those in a fire and I needed to replace them.  This seems like a pretty nice sale for a dealer.

They never called me back with a quote.  I'm not going to call them again.  If they can't even   followup with a quote, I cant imagine what their service is like.  They lost the sale and I will go with another Harman dealer.


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 19, 2011)

I needed a quote on a delivery van one time and got the same response.  It is not just stove dealers.  Customer service is a lost art.

Eric




			
				Cincinnati Kid said:
			
		

> I called a Harman dealer earlier this month in the metro Cincinnati area and
> told them I was going to purchase two Harman stoves (a P-43 and an Accentra insert).  I explained I had a P-38 and an Accnetra insert but lost those in a fire and I needed to replace them.  This seems like a pretty nice sale for a dealer.
> 
> They never called me back with a quote.  I'm not going to call them again.  If they can't even   followup with a quote, I cant imagine what their service is like.  They lost the sale and I will go with another Harman dealer.


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## aburress1223 (Sep 19, 2011)

In Southwest Virginia actual deralers are hard to find close.  The closest I could find was in Princeton, WV which is about 60 miles.  They were dealers for Whitfield, hence the decision to buy a Whitfield Profile 30.


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## rona (Sep 20, 2011)

I bought a Harman PC45 approx 6 years ago from a very good dealer.  Things went well until he  died and then I needed parts. I soon found out the bad side of Harman.  One you can't get parts from the factory. Two the next closest dealer was a price gouging back end of a horse and I refuse to work with people like that. 
  The ESP probe seems to be the big question mark with this stove. it controls a lot of the operation and no matter what goes wrong one of the suggestions is check the ESP probe.
 With the hopper extension the 45 holds over 100 lbs of fuel so you can fill it and not have to babysit 12 hours later.
  I have owned two different brands of stoves since and came to the conclusion that no matter which name you like they all will fail at some point and the owner is better off learning all there is to learn about the particular model and be able to fix it themselves. There is some parts such as fan motors and igniters that can be purchased cheaper then going through a dealer.
  There is good dependable dealers out there but make sure you ask around before you decide to buy a product.
 I always smile when someone says I bought this stove because it is more attractive then the other one.


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## DexterDay (Sep 20, 2011)

rona said:
			
		

> I bought a Harman PC45 approx 6 years ago from a very good dealer.  Things went well until he  died and then I needed parts. I soon found out the bad side of Harman.  One you can't get parts from the factory. Two the next closest dealer was a price gouging back end of a horse and I refuse to work with people like that.
> The ESP probe seems to be the big question mark with this stove. it controls a lot of the operation and no matter what goes wrong one of the suggestions is check the ESP probe.
> With the hopper extension the 45 holds over 100 lbs of fuel so you can fill it and not have to babysit 12 hours later.
> I have owned two different brands of stoves since and came to the conclusion that no matter which name you like they all will fail at some point and the owner is better off learning all there is to learn about the particular model and be able to fix it themselves. There is some parts such as fan motors and igniters that can be purchased cheaper then going through a dealer.
> ...



I have read many problems on the PC-45 on here and iburncorn. Thats why I will buy a 10-Cpm or and Omega-Maxx-M.


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## Ironhorse74 (Sep 21, 2011)

If you don't mind me asking - a major step down from what?  And why "now for sure a major step down"? Is there something we should all know that we don't? It's probably a good idea if you make a statement like that that you include some info to clarify it. Inquiring minds want to know.  :roll: 

EarlyMan[/quote]

I am really not here to bash other products. The way the question was worded got to me a little. It supposed that anything other than a Quad or Harmon was inferior. I was a Quad dealer in the early 90's and put in a lot of 1200's. The head engineer at Quad is an occasional drinking buddy. That being said I have a major predisposition to buying American made products. Wether they be hearth products, motorcycle products or boat products. How about we leave it there?

Brad


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## blazeitup (Sep 21, 2011)

i sell harman, quad and enviro and i goota say id like to own a enviro maxx-m the hopper size and the agitator do it for me!


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## bigruckus (Sep 22, 2011)

I was off to buy my first pellet stove a couple of months ago..came into a stove shop that sold Thelin and Harmon pellets stove..to make this short I bought the Thelin...I know this stove has had issues and maybe I made the wrong choice but I'm going to give this stove a chance..( I did read alot of material about both stoves)..The first thing is that the shop had the Thelin marked down to $1500.00..it was orignally $3300.00..so it was a good buy...the color is great...it's a cobalt blue and has the nickle trim...and it's well made with cast iron and steel..and the fit and finish is excellent...The Harmons all have a plain black finish on them...boring to me...but I have to agree the Harmon's are rated at the top or near the top...Wish me luck..I know I have to keep the Thelin clean and dailed in...time will tell...I guess..as you can see I'm venting it up and will update later this month...


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## francis.g (Sep 22, 2011)

my decision was easy. The nearest harman dealer is over 20 miles away, the Enviro dealer is 7 miles away

I also liked the multifuel capability of the  Enviro M55, and it seems that most people on this board who own an M55 are very pleased with it.


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## IHATEPROPANE (Sep 22, 2011)

It seems to me ALL stoves will have their problems from time to time.  Hopefully, you have a good dealer and/or are handy.  I had some initial issues with my stove but the dealer was right on top of them and with the help of this forum (Smokey in particular) my stove runs excellent.  

If I had to do it all over again, now having some experience the only thing I would change is I would have chose a stove where I could adjust the combustion air(on low mine has too much).  However brand would not be tops on my list.


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## RiddleMasterMorgon (Sep 23, 2011)

Always happy to help the marketing devision...


Harman: I really did not like the bottom feed idea (not so much fire threat as more waste of pellets and control over the fire), aside the price was hefty and the design does just not fit to the rest of the house (yes that was the major bying point for us), did not like the temperature sensor/control idea either

Quadra: Price, also design was not what we were looking for - although quite some different designs available.

Also, the dealership in my area is such that Harmans is one and Quadra is the other. One of them I just did not like much during my two visits in the shop, so one fell off the table right there...I ended up with a brand none of them had, but number two was willing to install BOSCA since they had done them in the past without issues, the other guy declined to install anything not purchased from him - again no go for me (although I understand the business reasoning behind it).

Since a stove is quite an investment and should last a couple of years, I think design is a big deal - and most pellet stoves fall awfully short.

Now one season into it, the most surprising factor for me is the noise level of the blower. If I could add one wish for all dealers - please give a sone rating for your stoves at max fan speed with it....that would be my second biggest criterium after design from now on.


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## schoondog (Sep 23, 2011)

Bought my stove in July of 2008. Spoke to the quad dealer in my little town, who I worked for years ago, and he said he couldn't get me any stove until Jan. 09 maybe. Wifey and I went to every hearth store in a 75  mile radius. A few I would not have bought anything from, a few were great folks and I may have purchased from them if they had anything to sell me. I finally ordered from Northern tool and they took the delivery date from 15 days to 45 days due to factory delays right after I paid for the stove. Cancelled Northern Tool and found same stove in a farm store in Indiana and they delivered it and piping in 1 week. Love my cheap insert. Works great. Looks OK. Probably would have bought  a Quad if my old boss had one to sell me.  And wife and I really like the look and feel of the Harmon we saw, but had to order for a feb. 09 delivery. My stove which has kept my home very toasty for the last 3 years was roughly 1/3 the price the Harmon dealer qouted me for an insert he couldn't get for 6 monthes. If I had to get a new one today it would be an Astroflamm or M55 unless my bud made me a great deal on a quad. Then again if I could get a great deal on a 6041i with an ignitor and t stat I might do that too.

Schoondog


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## Duane S. (Sep 23, 2011)

Quality/Reliability
Customer/Parts Support
BTU Output
Looks 
Price

After reading MANY comments on this site, and IBC and others, I decided not to buy a "cheapo" brand. With the local QuadraFire dealer 15 miles away and another 60 miles away, both seemed knowledgeable and helpful, so I went with a Quad. In Northern Michigan, BTU's are important. I've seen 30 below every year, with 10 to 20 below for prolonged periods normal. 30k-45k can't cut it. Yes looks are important to some people. I don't live in a dump, and I like my house looking good. I'm not rich, but I caught the dealer selling a store demo Mt. Vernon, 1000 bucks off! After several years, I loved it so much I bought another Mt. Vernon off CL for the finished basement. I love both of them!


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## ducker (Sep 23, 2011)

Flip side response:  I went with a Harman P38.  I knew what I wanted. 
I wanted to go with a non-igniter stove (imho another thing to break/replace on the stove - I have to light it like once a week, after I clean the burn pot - I'm on the same propane torch now going in to my 4th season)

I also really liked the idea of a bottom feed design.  The idea of pellets falling into the burnpot seemed odd to me; as it will require more hands on maintenance to clear out the fines.

That being said I found a limited selection in the places to purchase a stove.  I wanted to find a business that's been around a while, and a number of them were newer - with minimal track records; with the amount of difficulty some Harman owners have posted about having shops which they did not buy their stove from servicing them this was a major concern for me.

I chose the shop based on its track record, the stove based on its track record - the slightly higher price was acceptable to me as, I was expecting fewer issues with the stove going forward.  Versus having a stove shop closer, but having to have them service the stove more often.

In terms of the look, I made the switch from a jotul wood stove to a pellet - I wanted an XXV but those were just too expensive.  The P38 and other stand alone stoves had that nice classic wood stove look I love.

In terms of customer service - it seems as if some of other stoves excel in this department more so; that's great for them.  I have no idea on the statistical relevance of this data though, as good customer service doesn't necessarily attribute to a quality product, but rather quality service.  Again, which is awesome, but awesome service or not - if I'm having to much around with a product too often, no amount of bubblegum and gumdrops will make me a happy consumer.

Good luck to all the stove resellers out there - the more pellet stoves that are out there - the more demand for pellets, and the more pellet choices the current pellet pigs will have to choose from


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## WoodPorn (Sep 23, 2011)

reliability
Value
Customer support
availability of parts
etc.......

These are the reasons I chose to buy a Englander over Harman or Quad....there was no "settling"

PS... my other 2 stoves are Quads, I wish they had the same Value. 

Mike, keep up the EXCELLENT work!

This may be one thing that the "Big Box" stores have over the dealers.


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## lessoil (Sep 23, 2011)

jdempsey said:
			
		

> While reading thru all the posts seems harmon dealers have been mention alot to snub their noses at people.
> 
> I find this odd. Almost seems like they dont want your business.



We have had ZERO problems with the dealer we bought our Harman from.
This past Summer I called to have a couple of things looked at.
Dead spot on temp control knob and noisy combustion fan.
They looked up our warranty and wanted to get the control board in BEFORE
the warranty was up. The service folks(same ones who installed the stove in '08) were still friendly.
They installed the new control board and checked both fans.

There are some very good Harman dealers and I guess we have one in this area.

Even though the Harmans were pricey, we went with it based on input from Harman owners.
My Wife also liked the looks. I guess this is like the Ford vs Chevy question.
If the stove you bought runs well and you have a dealer who cares, then you will be happy.


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## badabing (Sep 23, 2011)

Another flip side, I went with the Harman P35i insert based on weeks of research on the internet. The next step was to compare products locally and listen to the dealers and installers feedback. The Harman had the best combination of efficiency, build quality and looks in my opinion. I'm fortunate enough to have 5 dealers within 25 miles of me and chose the dealer based on the time and effort spent with me prior to purchase. Install date set for mid October and to this point I couldn't be happier.


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## photogame (Sep 24, 2011)

I thought I would toss my 2 cents in with my story.

2005ish was designing and building a 28x48 addition on my house, basically doubling the size.  Now how to heat this new space, huge new family room, master bed and additional bedroom.   Pellet stove for the family room, exsisting furnace for bedrooms.  To the dealer, what are my choices, wife and I fall in love with Harmon xxv, end of (re)search.  First yr out for this stove, even has one of those # plates on back, that makes it a collector item, lol.  Flawless, more or less , performance since day one.  The price I paid has been worth every cent.

2008ish, Oil goes nutty.  Lets get pellet heat in front original house.  Buy a lesser quality/performance/price pellet burning box.  Yes , I was a bit spoiled with the no need to tinker with my Harman.  This lil pellet burning box ate through pellets like there was no tomorrow.  I gave up mid winter.  Spring 2009 I am surfing craigslist, wow, used Harman xxv $800.  They are two items that the day I sell this house I will be taking with me.  

Do I fully understand the why the OP asked his question, yes.  Have I done much research or talking to dealers about pellet stoves, no.  Did I have some great dumb luck with finding a stove that is built to last, perform, and keep my family warm, yes.  Do I have a hopper that needs to be filled at least once a day, sometimes even needs another topping off on those real cold days, yes.  I call it my winter workout.  Will I bash that lil pellet burning box I bought, no way, it put me in a spot to get a xxv for $800.  Plus the guy who bought the lil pellet burning box, $400, got a great deal and was happy as heck.

take care, enjoy your winter.  The wife almost had me fire up the stove the other day, so I imagine it won't be long before its heating season again.


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## opus74 (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, when I bought mine way back when, Whitfield was all he carried.

I'm still happy.

No more $400 electric bills/month !!


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## WOODNUT358 (Sep 28, 2011)

I went with the Harman 3 yrs ago.I was lucky that a shop was getting some XXV's by the end of Dec that yr. The bottom line was quality.You get what you pay for.From the research I did,the stove should last for years,and with minimal problems. it has burned any pellet that I have thrown in it,soft,hard.I do not have an OAK on it.The stove burns super,and I just clean it once a week(which is the easiest stove in the world to clean) Time will tell all.Down the road,we will learn what stoves will still be running,and the amount of problems different brands had.By no means do I feel that I have made a mistake buying this stove.


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## burrman (Sep 28, 2011)

poor people gotta start somewhere..haha   .i got my first stove on Craigslist  $650 bucks.us stove 0551 used way to much fuel on low, very warm house85 deg on the norm on setting 1 then sold it for 650 and got an osburn hybrid-45 on Craigslist for 600..house is comfortable at 70 on setting 2-3 way less fuel used...love it....


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## Pelleting In NJ (Sep 29, 2011)

I really wanted a Quad Edge-60, well made, but WAY too expensive, $5200 PLUS the front trim $1200. I can't imagine they sell many of those. I would have paid up to $3500 for the Edge, but no dealer wanted to even sell me their floor model for that. I liked the Harmon stoves quality too, but they don't make a contemporary styled unit. Next were contemporary stand-alones (Ecoteck, Thellin, Wittus, and the Enviro Evolution & Maxx/Omega). I was about to pull the trigger on the Enviro Evolution ($2400), but then found a great price on the Ecoteck Elena, and bought that. Although the Ecoteck was still on the expensive side ($3690 including shipping and no sales tax), I was willing to pay for the more sophistcated controls, stainless steel burn-pot and heat exchanger, quietness, and the top-notch fit-and-finish. I am a total do-it-yourselfer, so the "value-added" support of a dealer has no value to me.


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## jjs777_fzr (Sep 29, 2011)

'Settling' is indeed relative.

In 2006 I was walking thru Lowes and found the Englander 25-PDVC on mark down clearance for less than $700.
Sold.

I cant imagine spending much more than that.
I know these things are prone to auger jams - I've had a few - un-jammed it and continued burning.
I burn about 2-3 tons per year.
I have not (knock on wood) had to replace anything in 4 seasons - going on 5).

It can go without cleaning for a few days on low burn as the auger eventually pushes the ash out of the way.

Add to the overall cost the $200 I spent on the pellet vent kit (also on mark down) and for about an even grand I walked away happy on the total price point.

Englander says made in America - and no thats not corny to me with high unemployment numbers.
If more Americans BOUGHT American rather than China we'd be in better shape.
You know something is awfully wrong when my 9 year old asks me - why does everything say CHINA on it ?

At the time I bought the 25-PDVC I could have scored the next size up from Englander for $1200 but as this was my first time pellet stove I figured I'd just go for the smaller and if I didnt like it - give it to my mom and dad.

Are there better stoves ?  No doubt.  But I usually opt for the best bang for the buck.  Three kids + mortgage forces the 'settling' component.
I've noticed on ebay one can add a hopper extension to increase the capacity from 40lb to something more respectable.  I might give it a try.

Good thread - good question - enjoyed reading all the comments.


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## Rooscooter (Sep 29, 2011)

I settled on Bosca's for a number of reasons.  
One was that the components in the stove are very common and readily available.  
Second was construction quality.  
Third was cost and this was a big one as I paid around $1,600 each for two stoves including installation.  No one would touch that or even come close. 
Fourth was efficiency, footprint and BTU's.  We needed smaller footprint stoves that would put out heat in our 4,800 SF open plan home 3 level home.  The Bosca's had the smallest footprint and were very efficient.   
Fifth was aesthetics.  As an Architect, I usually gravitate to clean lines and lack of ornamentation.  Finding a stove that doesn't take it's design cues from a 100 year old trash burner is difficult...almost as difficult as finding one that doesn't have shiny gold doors.....


Quadra-Fire and Bosca are somewhat local brands in Spokane.  Bosca's US importer is local and Quadra-Fire is located about 60 miles north of Spokane.  There are a lot of dealers in town that know both very well and the consensus was that Bosca was a very good stove and especially so for the money.  

This will be my 4th burning season with the Bosca's and I couldn't be happier.  Absolutely no problems to date.  Great heat and not that finicky with pellets either.  They just work.  I don't regret my decision one bit.


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## Cozy Old Coot (Sep 29, 2011)

jjs777_fzr said:
			
		

> I've noticed on ebay one can add a hopper extension to increase the capacity from 40lb to something more respectable. I might give it a try.
> 
> Good thread - good question - enjoyed reading all the comments.



The Englander 25PDVC is a great little stove for the money it cost  . 

They don't have all of the bells and whistles as some other makes do, but once you have gotten the pellet feed & air settings set right on it you are ready to heat.

You may have to make your own repairs, but if you have a problem you can always contact Englanders service department for assistance. 

The service/assistance that the people at Englander provides to their customers is second to no-one :exclaim: .

The hopper extension you are referring to on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1500-Pellet...410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4156b855d2) will increase the pellet capicity from 1 bag (40lbs) to 2 1/2 bags (100lbs). 

We put one on our 25PDVC and are very satisfied with it.


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## FyreBug (Sep 29, 2011)

This thread should be mandatory reading for dealers & MFG's alike. It seems the balance is almost 50% customer pre & post service versus pricing, looks, brand.

From a MFG point of view we have learned the hard way. When we started making pellet appliances 6 years ago we didnt think we would encounter the 'teething' issues we would be faced with. After all a pellet stove is nothing like a wood stove. Customers will not put up with components issues no matter what price they paid.

That's why we shifted to bottom feed, quieter components and starting this year rather than launch a new product 'cold' we give 50 units to dealers across the country to beat up for a year. Dealers may *not* sell the unit, they must torture test it - throw the worst pellets, let it burn 24 hrs a day etc... and report back to engineering every month to work out any kinks. Hopefully, this will provide a better experience and confidence for consumers right from the start.

I'm personally not a huge pellet fan. I have to fix them too! However, I'll put our Alterna pellet furnace against anything in the market. The new bottom feeders are rock solid entering their second season.

We watch these threads closely since it give us a 'pulse' on what consumer expect. Thank you for your input.


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## jtakeman (Sep 29, 2011)

I am only a consumer, But would have liked a chance to abuse one of the Drolet ECO-65.


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## smoke show (Sep 29, 2011)

no begging.


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## jtakeman (Sep 29, 2011)

Maybe I'll retire from pellet reviews and start reviewing stoves? At their expense of coarse!


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## smoke show (Sep 29, 2011)

haha :lol:


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## FyreBug (Sep 29, 2011)

Notice I'm not biting?


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## jtakeman (Sep 29, 2011)

Sorry, Had to ask! I would definetly give it a diverse diet.


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## hailfire (Sep 30, 2011)

I couldn't find a Harman stove in Pink...


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 30, 2011)

hailfire said:
			
		

> I couldn't find a Harman stove in Pink...




I will make you a pink one.

Eric


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## kinsmanstoves (Sep 30, 2011)

FyreBug said:
			
		

> Notice I'm not biting?



FaceBook request has been sent.

Eric Kacvinsky


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## steamguy (Sep 30, 2011)

Had an Austroflamm insert for a dozen years and were spoiled by it. Ours was an early model from Germany. Whisper-quiet operation, great reliability, but utilitarian looks. 

Okay, about the two you mentioned here:
Looked at Harmann, and they were expensive for what you got, like a $500 premium for a PLAIN BLACK STOVE; the one dealer who carried it was shall we say "less than smart" about Harmann inserts. We were told that Harmann did not make a stove with any kind of style that would fit with our decor like the Enviro Empress we eventually ended up with. Wife was tired of "the stove that resembles an old pickup truck" look and wanted something more stylish.

Looked at a Quadrafire castile, were initially impressed, but it required a wired thermostat and that was part of the deal-breaker. Our fireplace is in the middle of the wall and has a number of decorative elements around it. No place to easily run thermostat wires to the correct place without busting into walls or tearing apart the mantlepiece. The thing that really killed it all was the Quad smoked into the room on startup. Maybe there was actually something wrong with its install in the showroom, but the guy swore it was working right.

The Empress started the way it was supposed to, the guy was reasonable on the price, and although it was louder, we decided to accept it as it was and purchase.

Hope that helps your research.


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## drizler (Oct 1, 2011)

I researched stoves extensively for a couple of years and wanted to get a Harmon.    There was a guy I worked with who could pick it up for me when he went back to visit his folks in NH.    No sales tax from ripoff NY sweet deal.    Then I got in touch with them on the phone and they said they wouldn't sell without installing it.    No way!   I do most everything myself and don't need a dealer to hold my hand.  Not with the directions you can get off the net today.   So that was out especially when I learned it was the company policy of Dealer Install Only.    Forget it.   I went and mail ordered a Countryside from across the country and had it in for about $1900 total.    That's about half "what a Harmon would have cost installed and it's multifuel so I burn either corn or pellets as price dictates.     I don't need all the fancy bells and whistles and consider them just complications ( except the remote thermostat).    I also like the fact that parts for the Countryside are pretty much common off the shelf parts that I can get online.     The Countryside has the grinder style which I don't really like but it worked until I removed it and made my own burn pot that was much thicker and deeper.  For me and my desires the cheaper made Countryside was just simply the better deal, and I don't like having dealer installation (or anything else) shoved down my throat.   There are plenty of people out there who want and need installation just not me.


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## quickrch (Oct 2, 2011)

My better half didn't like the guy at the harman dealership and their prices were out of range with a required $1500 install.  Also, we wanted a free standing, with a big hopper, bay front, silver trim, and the avalon astoria seemed like right stove.  One neighbor has a Harman, the other a quadrafire.  Both love their stoves too.  My house is the same floor plan as one house and the other is very similar.  All are happy and warm but the harman puts out a little less heat (smaller unit 40 or 38k) and they use some electric in the coldest of winter.  Other than saving money and getting one that looks like we want and holds 2-3 bags I think the others would have been good too.


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## slangtruth (Dec 18, 2011)

Fall 2008 was when oil shot up and we went looking for a supplement. We decided we wanted a furnace and it was really down to either Harman or St. Croix. Harman looked to be on 4 month backorder according to the closest dealer. St. Croix Revolution was also on backorder, but it was only six weeks. Went with the Rev, probably could have used the slight extra BTU output from the Harman, but the dealer seemed uninterested in pursuing anything he couldn't sell right away and didn't even have any lit available. The St. Croix dealer at least had a SCF-050 so he could show us about what it would look like, and promised to deliver a Rev before the snow flew, so he got the sale.


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## DirtyDave (Dec 18, 2011)

I have to admit this ... the local dealers IMHO in the pugeot sound area of Wash. are the most Greedy, crooked people out there even over car dealers. The price on same stove can vary over 900.00 from store to store on any given day. thier Sales event of 50% off should say 50.00 off raised prices, for this sale. New factory seconds only 100.00 less than the rest.  The wife Wants a new stove..she looked at Quads, loves Lopi ( previous Lopi owner) and loves our 94 Whitfield for best drop it and it keeps on working. Costco had a demo for one week. Quad prices were over 2K LESS  when bought that week. Honestly She will get either Lopi or Quad come summer if she can find a sweet enough deal, within Or Wa Id area and My work will be go get it and install it after work.


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## Don2222 (Dec 18, 2011)

kinsman stoves  [email said:
			
		

> eric@kinsmanstoves.com[/email]]I want to ask everyone why they did not buy a Harman or QuadraFire stove but settled for another brand? Yes I am a dealer for Harman, QuadraFire, and Heatilator stoves.   I have sold other brands and I am familiar with most of the common problems related to each brand of stove.  I am aware that there is also a slight price difference in some of the units but I want to address that issue as it comes up, because it will.
> 
> I have had numerous people come into the store to "upgrade" to a Harman or QuadraFire. I ask them this question and these are the main answers.
> 
> ...



Hi Eric

I know Harman and Quads are good stoves and provide good heat. Having an electronics background I find that heat and electronics do not mix very well. I do like features and nice electronic functions but not so much to the point that they cause more breakdowns and failures.

Example 1
Quad MT Vernon AE optical sensor for sensing the auger turning and relaying the information to their electronic T-Stat.
The optical sensors do fail from heat and also get greasy dirty.

Example 2
The Harman ESP sensor for exhaust
Another common failure part from dirt and heat.

The Avalon Astoria made with the Whitfield design has non of these parts. So these parts are nice to have and I luv the electronic T-Stat on the Quad but Auger Jam and TCP Thermocouple failures are too common.

The Mt Vernon's plastic hopper and corkscrew style auger seem very flimsy. Even the auger motor is small and reverses if there is any pressure applied. I would rather see a heavy cam shaft type auger and all metal construction.

Also the bottom feed on the Harman and other stoves can be more prone to Auger Jams. On the Englander it is just a matter of time before the lower auger chute builds creasote and the auger stalls and the fire goes out. Can be 3 years if the chute is never hard cleaned. Also the heat warps the impingement plate. I suspect the Harman my have similar issues with the bottom feed auger but not as familiar with them yet.

So if they can make these stove stronger and more reliable to last many years they would be a winner.
Funny how so many Enviro EF-2s made for 10 years in the world are still going strong along with Whitfields. These are the stoves we can learn from.  However electronics must be proven in the field, even the newer Whitfield optical sensor had problems, that is where more engineering must be done on any electronics for improved reliability Just my 2 cents.


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## John97 (Dec 18, 2011)

I bought a Quad because I will answer anyway because my overall experience seems relevant to what the OP seeks.

I did some preliminary research online and that seemed to indicate I should look at a Harman or a Quadrafire insert.  I was leaning towards the Mt. Vernon.  It seemed to have everything I wanted.

I went to a Harman/Quad dealer first, they steered me away from the Mt. Vernon to an Accentra and gave me a total price that included a $1200 installation.  They only sell stoves if they are installing it.  Fine, I was going to have them install it anyway.  

I wanted to do some price comparison shopping, so I went to another Harman/Quad dealer.  I guess I must not have been dressed well enough, because they didn't treat me like a serious customer.  I asked for an installed price and just got general numbers given to me, no details, no written quote.  It seemed like I was an inconvenience because I wanted some concrete information.  The attitude was that we're going to be the about same price as the other place you already went, so you already know how much you're going to be spending if you decide to do this.  Fine, they lost a $5000+ sale.

Meanwhile, I started lurking here and considered looking at other brands.  The Enviro M55C insert caught my eye.  I found a local dealer, went there 3X during their advertised hours and the place was locked up and dark each time.  Well, that was that...  I'm back to Harman/Quad...

I went to another dealer that was further away, but has a great reputation and had been in business longer than anyone else in the area.  They carry Quad and Heatilator, not Harman.  Their initial quote for a Mt. Vernon installed was equal to the first dealer's quote for an Accentra instaled.  Now, there is a significant price difference between the two units.  The higher installation charges from the first dealer are the reason the total numbers ended up the same. 

The first dealer did give my a price on a Mt. Vernon, basic black, no OAK.  My actual cost for what I went with is equal to that dollar-wise.  However, I'm getting an optional color, the optional decorative cast trim, and the OAK (with installation).

My Mt. Vernon will be installed five days from today.


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## Don2222 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi Eric

Another item I want to mention is the Ignitor.

Are the Harman 306 watt and Quad 380 watt igniters really necessary?

When I am trying to be efficient and save energy I switch from a 100 watt light bulb to a 60 watt light bulb that still does the job!!

Travis Industries in the last few years went from a 250 Watt style cartridge igniter to a 200 watt igniter!! The pellets lights just fine and now their ignitor will always surpass the 2 year warranty!!

So 380 watts almost double the wattage for an igniter, Sorry that is a big waste of electrical energy and money Sometimes moving the igniter a little closer to the pellets is the solution.

So that is my igniter rant. Thanks for listening.


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## briansol (Dec 18, 2011)

kinsman stoves  [email said:
			
		

> eric@kinsmanstoves.com[/email]]I want to ask everyone why they did not buy a Harman or QuadraFire stove but settled for another brand? Yes I am a dealer for Harman, QuadraFire, and Heatilator stoves.   I have sold other brands and I am familiar with most of the common problems related to each brand of stove.  I am aware that there is also a slight price difference in some of the units but I want to address that issue as it comes up, because it will.
> 
> I have had numerous people come into the store to "upgrade" to a Harman or QuadraFire. I ask them this question and these are the main answers.
> 
> ...





I don't know...   it was one of 2 inserts they had available, and the other one didn't cover as much sq ft as the lennox did, so i went with that one.    hindsight, i should have done more research before buying but I bought at peak stove time back in 2007 when oil was over $5 a gallon and everyone was sold out of everything.  Prices went up $500 a week after i bought mine!   it was crazy times.


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## jgrz0610 (Dec 18, 2011)

Harman dealer was a pretentious idiot who couldn't be bothered by my questions.  He quoted me $1500 for the chimney liner and another 1200 for install.  Went to another place, got a M55, liner, and installation, for same price as Harman P35i, had more BTUS, looked better, cost less, and the dealer took the time to make sure it was what I needed.  The biggest issue, beyond anything, is the Harman dealer was, and continues to be, a complete jerk.


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## subsailor (Dec 18, 2011)

I guess I was lucky. My Harman dealer has been great. Like the stove, like the heat, like the service. Have an Englander. The stove does what they say is does. It will throw heat. Uses more pellets, a pain to clean every other day, can't keep the glass clean. But it will throw heat. And I almost think it's quieter than my Harman.


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## ablejoy (Dec 18, 2011)

Quad Castile porcelain finish, recommended by a friend only wish we bought the Mount Vernon. Stove is reliable and there was only one dealer in town when we purchased the stove in 2008


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## pelletash (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I'll throw it out there anyway.  I'd love to have a "name brand" stove someday.  The M55 insert really catches my eye.  For me it was all about the price.  I got my USSC 6041 insert for around $2K less than the next closest big name stove.  Granted, the Harmans and Quads are more pleasing to the eye  and have many more people familiar with them from a service standpoint.   I enjoy tinkering and am fairly handy and plan on handling any needed repairs myself, so dealer support wasn't a major concern.    I hope one day to step up to the big leagues, but so far am not regretting my decision.  I'm staying warm and that's what is most important.


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## cuznvin (Dec 18, 2011)

The ONLY dealer on Long Island I felt comfortable buying from sold Enviro. I also got great reviews from other people here that bought Enviros. I love the self cleaning feature, high BTU output and look of the stove.


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## kykel (Dec 18, 2011)

I looked at the harmon xxv and the quad AE. I loved the look of the Quad and the btus. I called the dealer and was quoted $5000. That thing would have to buy stack and fill itself with pellets for that price. On to the harman. Liked the look but was turned off by the square foot rating witch I believe was 1600 sq ft. Also the dealer wasnt a big fan of heating the house with pellets. More of a room heater in his opinion. Then I stumbled on to the Enviro M55  cast witch looks very similar to the quad and the rest is history. Although I think the other two stoves are good Im happy with my choice. Its got the looks and Btus I was looking for and multifuel to boot


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## flynfrfun (Dec 18, 2011)

DirtyDave said:
			
		

> I have to admit this ... the local dealers IMHO in the pugeot sound area of Wash. are the most Greedy, crooked people out there even over car dealers. The price on same stove can vary over 900.00 from store to store on any given day. thier Sales event of 50% off should say 50.00 off raised prices, for this sale. New factory seconds only 100.00 less than the rest.  The wife Wants a new stove..she looked at Quads, loves Lopi ( previous Lopi owner) and loves our 94 Whitfield for best drop it and it keeps on working. Costco had a demo for one week. Quad prices were over 2K LESS  when bought that week. Honestly She will get either Lopi or Quad come summer if she can find a sweet enough deal, within Or Wa Id area and My work will be go get it and install it after work.



Dave,  I felt the same way too when I was in the market for a stove.  That is until I found Rich at Foothills Fireplace and Grills in Black Diamond.  So far he has been great.  I knew more about the stoves than the salespeople in the shops.  Some couldn't even get the baffle out of the stove (Harman)...I had to show him how.  Got sick of the clueless salespeople.  Glad I found Rich.


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## smoke show (Dec 18, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> So 380 watts almost double the wattage for an igniter....Sometimes moving the igniter a little closer to the pellets is the solution.



Some stoves ignite more than pellets.


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