# Much cheaper than solar panels



## webbie (Jun 8, 2006)

We had an interesting speaker at my local inventors group meeting last night. The guy told the story of his business life, which started when he was inspected and rejected by the Vietnam War draft due to some minor fault (he looked perfectly healthy to me). Being as he was free from Uncle Sam, he and a friend decided to travel to S. America in the early 70's. 

While he was down there, the first oil shock hit and he recounted the story of reading about it and deciding to go back to the states and sell solar panels...which he did. After selling and installing solar panels for a year,  he made an observation:
" Solar panels in New England save a household approx. 5 million BTU per year, the same amount that can be saved by using $10 water saving shower heads in the bathrooms!".

So, as he related it, he quickly stopped selling solar and started designing and manufacturing his own line of water saving and conservation devices. He worked as a waiter at night, went out partying after, and then came home and assembled and sold showerheads (while still in his underpants as he relates it).

Well, long story short, next thing you know he was prime supplier to Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Lowes, Target and others. He ended up with dozens of patents and made his items 100% in the USA - in fact, in Stamford, Ct. He sold out to Masco (Delta Faucet) 4 years ago for MANY million dollars.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting story of thinking outside the box and good old American entepreneurship....and, it has me thinking real hard about those solar DHW panels. Maybe it's better that I turn the water temp down first!

Score one win for those who say Market forces win! 99% of the solar manufacturers went our of biz while this guy sold millions of his product. As he said, when it comes down to a choice between a $10 item and a $3,000 one, the $10 will win every time!


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 8, 2006)

As long as he's not the guy who invented low-flow toilets, he's alright with me.


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## Shane (Jun 8, 2006)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> As long as he's not the guy who invented low-flow toilets, he's alright with me.



That bastard should be lynched.  Speaking of water & ingenuity I wonder if Heatnglo is doing anything else with the Aqueon.  It would be great if they could make it a self sustaining fire.  Using Hydrogen to produce the electricity to separate the oxygen and hydrogen.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Jun 8, 2006)

fwiw, toto low flow toliets rock. By for the best low flow toliet on the market. toto


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## elkimmeg (Jun 8, 2006)

you mean the 1.6 gal flushes. Here is a tip for those who have to flush their toilets multi times

 I know its like the stove is not working right  because of poor draft and venting.

 water jets in the toilets get plugged up or reduced and restricted. Scale builds up around them.  
Normal water sedidement situations. When fully flushed and working in clean watter,, without critters floating around,
 Get a pipe cleaner steel wool or even a jack knife and clean out the Water jet entrance passages, you will be supprised
 how much improvement you will notice flushing.  Shure beats purchasing a new toilet


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## elkimmeg (Jun 8, 2006)

While at it here is another area of improvements that get neglected clean out your dryer vent every 6 months.

Ever notice you washer machine seems to take for ever filling up with water? Where the hoses connect there is usually a cones type screen in the fitting usually on the machine side. take out that screen ans clean out the sedidment blocking your water flow simmilar to the screens in your water fawcets. once cleaned your flow rate should improve Thoes that have wells it is a cronic problem


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 8, 2006)

I still prefer the old-style toilets with a couple of bricks in the tank, but I'll give cleaning the jets a shot elk. Thanks.

I've noticed that if you hold the handle down for the duration of the flush (instead of hitting it once and letting it go), you can usually get by with just one flush for all but the most heavy-duty jobs.

On a gut level, I agree with Shane.

For what it's worth, the Europeans (and I believe the Japanese) have the toilet thing (as opposed to the toilet paper thing) all figured out. European toilets that I've had the pleasure of using have several flush options. Hit one button for a light or strictly liquid load; hit another button for the more substantial jobs. Save water and money in the process.


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## fbelec (Jun 8, 2006)

try a toilet that has a sloan flushmate. you can see it at the sloan web site. it uses a ballon or something like that inside it's own tank. you don't see any water in the tank when you pull off the cover. i throw out the plunger with the old toilet. don't need it any more. there is so much pressure on a flush that if something gets caught just let it fill up again (usually under a minute maybe 30 seconds) flush again and it's gone. 

if you ever used a toilet on a cruise ship then you already know how good this toilet works.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 8, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Anyway, I thought it was an interesting story of thinking outside the box and good old American entepreneurship....and, it has me thinking real hard about those solar DHW panels. Maybe it's better that I turn the water temp down first!
> 
> Score one win for those who say Market forces win! 99% of the solar manufacturers went our of biz while this guy sold millions of his product. As he said, when it comes down to a choice between a $10 item and a $3,000 one, the $10 will win every time!



I think we should be using both. It's not an either/or situation.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Jun 9, 2006)

no toliet paper in this house, yes im strange, but damn, I love this thing. washlet


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## Shane (Jun 9, 2006)

Does it dry too?


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## rudysmallfry (Jun 9, 2006)

Yeah, what they said. For low flow flush, Toto Drake rocks. Also, there's an Australian one called Caroma that has the solid/liquid buttons.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Jun 9, 2006)

nope you get a wet but, on that note, its not like it hoses you down or anything, i dont see the need for the dryer, but they offer it. The same company i am with also has a home design center, we sell high end fixtures and cabs. I used to be a hardware and bath designer there.  Toto is one brand we sold. Caroma is very good too.  What a great thread. Total hijack from the webmaster (sorry)


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## begreen (Jun 9, 2006)

rudysmallfry said:
			
		

> Yeah, what they said. For low flow flush, Toto Drake rocks. Also, there's an Australian one called Caroma that has the solid/liquid buttons.



We have expensive water so conservation is important. Toto rules. When in France we stayed at a B&B that had new Villeroy-Bosch dual flush toilets. They are excellent. However, when I built our upstairs bathroom I couldn't find a good source for these toilets. A friend told me about the Caromas that he had just installed for a client. I ended up buying a Caroma Caravelle toilet. Top of the line, dual-flush and pretty pricey. It is excellent for saving water, and as my teenage son will testify, it handles heavy loads, no problem. It hits whatever is in the bowl with a wall of water from the front on high flush and can move mountains.

It does it's job, very frugal with water, but I can't say we love this toilet. The designers kept an absolute minimum amount of water in the bowl. Why I'm not sure, to prevent evaporation? The result is that the *ahem* drop-zone, is pretty tiny. Miss it and one ends up having to wipe the toilet bowl as well as one's bottom. Bad design. It saves a lot with pee, but can be a pain with the rest. Stick with the Toto and you will be smiling and saving water. 

For lots more info, we have a local plumber that has done the reseach on low-flow toilets. He has a great website. Check it out at:
http://www.terrylove.com/


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## Sandor (Jun 9, 2006)

Put Toto Drakes in my mountain house and they worked well.

Put Niagara Flaperless in the last home I built, and they also work well. Sold that home, and moving in with g/f. 

Gonna try the Crane flapperless this time. Flappers in her house just don't last because of aggressive water and I hate that drippy sound at night.

The Crane is maybe the only toilet made in the USA.

Chinese proverb says.... MSG has clean hands and wet butt.


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## begreen (Jun 9, 2006)

You might be interested in this review from Love plumbing's site. It may be just a case of a poor quality OEM flapper. -

"Al Dietemann,  of the Seattle Utilities Department, concerned  that many of the new toilets are coming  with inexpensive flappers that deteriorate and go bad in a very short time.   He feels that if the manufacturers would spend just a little more on the flapper, replacements would be needed much less often. Leaking flappers are a source of wasted water in a home.  The city of Seattle engaged in a water study to determine savings of the new water efficient fixtures.  click here for more information and pictures. "
http://www.terrylove.com/seattle_study.htm

I haven't checked recently, but aren't Kohler, Eljer, Gerber and American Standard still made in the US? I'm not sure about Western, which has a glazed trapway and gets high marks too.


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## Sandor (Jun 11, 2006)

Comprehensive Flush Evaluation....


http://www.toiletsthatwork.com/map_test_5th_edition.pdf


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2006)

Great link! I read the Canadian report a few years ago, but this is much more comprehensive. I have to chuckle over the soy sample stools. My son could put these to shame. 

It looks like several manufacturers are improving their lines. Unfortunately, the mover of most mass, American Standard Champion, continues to get complaints for poor quality, leaks and early failure of components. Numbers are not everything; noise generated, thorough bowl cleaning and service history are also important factors. For these reasons, our next toilet will likely be a Toto. 

One sign of a good toilet is a fully glazed trapway. You'd be amazed at how much crud can accumulate on an unglazed surface over time. This really degrades performance.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 11, 2006)

Gotta love that multi-purpose miso.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 12, 2006)

My plumber installed a Kohler toilet  replacement gets a call back the next day, Plugged up fiddles around with it and gets his snake jammed in it and can" get it out.  Removes the toilet still can't get his snake removed so he brings it to the supply house with the embeaded snake. They can't get it out they break the toilet./ The porcelin mold leaked and  left a chunk of slag that jammed the auger
 He gets a replacement 3 days later it is plugged again. The supply house gets a hold of Kohler.  Kohler finally admits to having a bad run from their Mexico opperations. The supply house recieved other returns and complaints.   They ship all remaining Kohler toilets back and drop the line. 

 I had a ford F150 ran fine then started miss firing Changed all the plugs wires cap router ect helped a bit but days later ran like crap.
 I even plugged in the computer  it tells me  a miss fire in cyl 2  I change the wire and plug same thing I swap know good wires and plugs the same, Finally I bring it into a shop they discover its in the wirring harness. So they replace mine runs good for a couple of days. Again miss firing but now it cylinder 5.  Faulty made in Mexico Wiring harness replaced it again same thing a week later replaced it for the third time and finally worked. 3 brand new OEM harnesses two faulty made in Mexico. I am no longer driving a ford.  I lost a lot of money in shop time when I should have been working.


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## Sundeep Arole (Jun 12, 2006)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> My plumber installed a Kohler toilet  replacement gets a call back the next day, Plugged up fiddles around with it and gets his snake jammed in it and can" get it out.  Removes the toilet still can't get his snake removed so he brings it to the supply house with the embeaded snake. They can't get it out they break the toilet./ The porcelin mold leaked and  left a chunk of slag that jammed the auger
> He gets a replacement 3 days later it is plugged again. The supply house gets a hold of Kohler.  Kohler finally admits to having a bad run from their Mexico opperations. The supply house recieved other returns and complaints.   They ship all remaining Kohler toilets back and drop the line.
> 
> I had a ford F150 ran fine then started miss firing Changed all the plugs wires cap router ect helped a bit but days later ran like crap.
> I even plugged in the computer  it tells me  a miss fire in cyl 2  I change the wire and plug same thing I swap know good wires and plugs the same, Finally I bring it into a shop they discover its in the wirring harness. So they replace mine runs good for a couple of days. Again miss firing but now it cylinder 5.  Faulty made in Mexico Wiring harness replaced it again same thing a week later replaced it for the third time and finally worked. 3 brand new OEM harnesses two faulty made in Mexico. I am no longer driving a ford.  I lost a lot of money in shop time when I should have been working.



Well, Don, I think Ford still makes the best trucks. I don't own a ford, except indirectly, as both my cars are Mazda. Currently looking to swap out the older 1994 Mada sedan (ford built, BTW, but thank god not Mexico built) still running like a dream after 160K miles. Thought to replace it with the smaller ford focus zx3 (looks cool) but the built in mexico thing has got me a bit worried. Plus, it is not any more fuel efficient than my car, with a 2L engine it is a bigger engine than my current car, be taking a step backwards. But it is fun to drive!
Went to the Toyota dealers to try and take a look at a new Yaris - nobody has them, but they will happily take your order for one at sticker price and then some. Totota is tightly controlling the supply on these, the know the things are hot. Looks like I'll be driving the older Mazda for a little while longer.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 12, 2006)

Just bought a Jetta, made in Mexico. Nice car; no problems so far.


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## Shane (Jun 12, 2006)

My dodge is made in Mexico, it's a good truck.  Foreign products have come up in quality.  There are stove manufacturers who argue that Chinese castings rival Europeans now.  I still do not agree with or like the fact that many of our products are made in foreign markets.  I think those jobs should be left here in America.  But we must all accept responsibility.  It's not the corporations or government trade policies that have taken the jobs overseas.  It's our lust as consumers to get the best possible price.  It's our willingness to groan about the jobs being shipped overseas while we shop at Wal-Mart.  Your money speaks much louder than your words.  You can scream about it all you want but so long as you continue to buy said products they will continue to be made there.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 12, 2006)

I thought one of the goals of NAFTA was to create a better economy in Mexico, with better-paying jobs, so that Mexicans would stay home and work instead of illegally entering this country. Guess that part of the deal didn't work out.

Sometimes people don't think things through. About 15 years ago I freaked out my union brother in law by buying a Mazda 626. He pissed and moaned about me buying a Japanese car, until I pointed out that it was assembled in Flat Rock Michigan by UAW members. Now he's a Toyota man.


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## Shane (Jun 12, 2006)

It still remains apparant to me that the core cause of the problem is the American consumer.


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## Sandor (Jun 12, 2006)

Shane said:
			
		

> It still remains apparant to me that the core cause of the problem is the American consumer.



Actually, your wrong.

Its the American Investor.


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## Shane (Jun 12, 2006)

Investors are consumers, and if consumers paid better attention to what they were consuming and what the real cost of saving a couple bucks was things might be different.  I'm not saying I am not guilty, and since I am guilty obviously I'm a hypocrite.  The consumer drives the market, what get's consumed is what get's invested in.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 12, 2006)

When I was a kid, it was illegal to import anything from China. Our govenment didn't like their politics.

Since then, we've decided that free trade is a better approach. For better or worse, that's the root of the problem.

You can't blame consumers for shopping price, I don't think. And you can't blame corporations for doing it, either. You can blame a country's politicians for allowing jobs to be exported if you like, and you can blame the voters for electing those politicians.

If all consumers voted, then Shane would be right. 

So, IMO, it's the American voter's fault.


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## Shane (Jun 12, 2006)

But wasn't the idea and implementation of free trade driven by the American consumers appetite for less expensive products?  And it's undeniable that if consumer demand for foreign made products dried up it wouldn't matter if it were legal or not to trade with China.  If the American consumer base as a whole truly did not want foreign products they wouldn't exist in the market place.  There is nothing manufactured today, that I can think of, that we are incapable of manufacturing right here in America.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 12, 2006)

I think our politicians decided that it was better (maybe better for them) to have low inflation and a shrinking manufacturing base than the alternative, which would have been inflation and an abundance of decent blue-collar jobs. Given the growth our economy has seen in recent decades, maybe they were right.

My point was simply that trade policy is driven by political concerns and politicians. There are benefits to protectionism (jobs) and benefits to free trade (low prices). Apparently, you can't have both at the same time.

If we truly lived in a democracy, then you would be right to lay it all at the feet of the consumer. I think it's a little more complicated than that, and I think the consumer is being manipulated by politicians and corporations.


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## Shane (Jun 12, 2006)

Allowing oneself to be manipulated by politicians is still not the core cause of the problem.  I'm not one of those people who doens't believe in shades of gray, every situation is intricatley tied to and affected by the next.  And I agree we cannot have protectionism in conjunction with free trade.  But we as consumers drive the market, whether we choose to think for ourselves or allow others to think for us is still a choice made by every single individual in this country countless times per day.  Politicians are consumers too, and I think that your point and my point are one in the same.  We have chosen low inflation for a shrinking manufacturing base.  In my opinion there is no "they" only "us" or "we".  What I mean by that is people are always blaming they who are "they" but a piece of your community.  A major contributor to our problems are that the majority no longer rules in this country.


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## webbie (Jun 12, 2006)

Sandor said:
			
		

> Its the American Investor.



Well, as a whole perhaps.....

Two little stories/examples:
1. The electric miter box - In 1976 I purchased a nice Makita box (made in Japan - high wages, etc.) for about $250. - It was a really nice piece compared to the craftsman.

I would expect a tool of comparable quality to sell for $400+ these days and I would pay that if I was a carpenter. But instead, similar tools are available for $150 - a price that means a LOT more people buy them. But I would not say that the customers demanded this - rather it was made available, and a larger market opened. 

2. Copperfield Chimney - here is a a US company that waved the flag for 20+ years and built their business on almost 100% US made products. They were alway profitable. BUT, for the founder to sell out for the most money, they had to hire a "hatchet man" who pumped up the value of the company by moving as much as possible to China. The consumers and dealers who buy from them got no break (with a few exceptions). The idea was just for the company to make more money. Of course, it worked and the company was sold for big bucks.

Neither one had to happen and neither was created by the customers or masses. It was the system itself that rewarded the behaviors. As some radicals like to say "a corporation is NOT a person". 

Consumers are at the bottom of the food chain. Sure, quality matters and all that....but the big fish eat the little ones. You should hear some of the tales from my Inventors club speakers about Lowes, Home Depot, etc. and the pressure they exert on the manufacturers....really scary and when you hear it you will no doubt decide you don't want to get involved in that game. But the problem is that it becomes the only game in town!

I suppose we could remove all our money from the stock market, but then our banks would invest in the same ventures with our savings accounts and CD's.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 12, 2006)

High-quality power tools are a perfect example. Wish the same were true of wood stoves and boilers, but they seem to be following the old American model of steadily rising prices. Maybe that's because they're made of iron and steel and have high shipping weights, but I was struck by your observation in another thread, Craig, that you're not getting a whole lot for your money (compared to other consumer products) when you buy a modern stove.

I wish the auto industry followed the consumer electronics pricing model. No matter how hard I try to get ahead of the game, I'm still commiting about a quarter of my gross annual income when I buy a new car. It was that way in 1980 and it's still the case. The only difference today is that the sales taxes have more than doubled (9.5 percent where I live).

Overall, I'd say that the free world market is a good thing for the haves in this world, but it's a raw deal for the have-nots. And it's a raw deal for the environment, any way you slice it.


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## Sandor (Jun 13, 2006)

CEO gets comped on the value of the company share.

Shares are worth more when profitability is high.

If it takes $10 dollars to make a widget in the US, and it takes $5 to make the same widget in China, including shipping, then viola! This is the "productivity" gain Greenspan has been talking about for the last decade.

Now that company has pricing power over the competition. Now others competing must follow step and manufacture in China to stay competitive, or their stock price will be hammered, and no fat CEO bonus.

Obviously oversimplified, but thats it in a nutshell.

DeWalt tools were manufactured in the US ten years ago. My last DeWalt circ saw must made in China. Porter Cable, Ryobi, etc made them do it.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 13, 2006)

Makitas are still made in Japan that is except chain saws made in Germany Dolmar Sacks (Makita bought them out)

I have a LS 12/12 which is a Makita 12" compound sliding miter saw Tilting both ways Flawless in opperation. I had a dewalt nice saw when it was running but spent too much time repairing it Calabraiting the miters that for some reason slipped from time to time.
 I have the Home Crapo Ridgid Contractors Table saw. Nice saw. I came by it as two were being thrown out broken Using both, I pieced together a real decent saw at 0 cost. Ridgid power tools sold at home crapo made in China.  What a way to bastardize the best name in plumbing tools.  The Ridgid Home Crapo  connection. So far Makita has not made a cheaper version of it tools for the Box stores. Most pros buy Makita and know what to expect. I have a lot of different brands.  Wastefullness spills over even in contractor tools now. It breakes buy a new one but please give me the old one to fix. I still have many good working tools from the 70's my first Skill saw Turn it on and the ball bearings are still turning minutes later. I have framed over 100 homes using this saw (along with others)   Yes I replaced brushes,cords,and switches, but It was built to last and has proven it. It's a bit heavy but no plastic anywhere.  MacColuch 10 10 Chainsaw 1968, still working still cutting, no plastic parts either.  ( no safety features and one of the loudest saws ever)


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## HarryBack (Jun 13, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> fwiw, toto low flow toliets rock. By for the best low flow toliet on the market. toto



Im somewhat of a toilet connoiser (sp?)....Toto DOES rock!, and they have toilets in all ranges of prices, even several pressurized flush models! wow! just dont be sitting on the pot when you flush! :ahhh:


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## HarryBack (Jun 13, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Sandor said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats what worries me about a local New England pellet mill...the ONLY New England one. They decide to expand, they need money, they bring in investors. Now, to their credit, these investors are there to MAKE MONEY, to GET A RETURN on their money. Fastforward to April, '06. The pellet co sends out their yearly pricing....its high, but the pellet co says price of energy is up, etc, and they DONT EXPECT TO RAISE THE PRICE ANYTIME SOON. Fastforward to June 5, '06. Along comes a letter in the mail, the pellet co is raising their price by $24.00/ton! in June! less than 2 months after they said it would remain stable! In my paranoid way of thinking, I think the Board of Directors have decided that they and the investors arent making enough return on their investment, so they are "tweaking" the price on the order of some 15%. I worry that the investors may be causing people to look elsewhere for product. If someone can bring pellets into NE effectively and competitively, theres a great opportunity for them here. It seems a bad idea to do this now, IMHO, when you will need to be relying on future business to pay for the new plant(s). my 2 cents


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 13, 2006)

You gotta bear in mind that the price of everything is rising, so I don't know why pellets should be any different.

Pellet manufacturers buy sawmill residue when they can get it, since they don't have to process or dry it as much as when they buy logs or other roundwood. As the price of logs rises, the price of sawmill residue (when they can get it) goes up as well. They're competing with papermills and other secondary manufacturers for the same residue, so price and availability is always uncertain.

If they can't get sawmill residue, then they have to buy logs or whole-tree chips or some other form of inferior feed stock. The price on that stuff rises along with the sawmill residue, for many of the same reasons. Processing this material requires grinding and drying, both of which require large amounts of fuel, probably fossil fuel in most cases. Add all that to the cost of transportation (a huge expense) and I think you can understand why the price of pellets continues to rise, along with everything else.

That's part of the equation, anyway. I'm sure they're trying to make money like everyone else. And, I suspect they've figured out how high they can price their product without attracting competition from outside the region.

Think about it for a minute: Why would a company announce a "firm" price and then reneg on it two months later? Obviously, that's going to piss people off. Most likely, they were caught off-guard by an unexpected increase in their costs. I'd chalk that up to inexperience in an emerging market.

Bottom line, I don't think pure greed is the entire answer. Uncertain commodities pricing is just one of the realities of the free market. So is charging what the market will bear.

That's why I like heating with free firewood. Long-term, I don't think anyone saves much money burning pellets.


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## HarryBack (Jun 13, 2006)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> You gotta bear in mind that the price of everything is rising, so I don't know why pellets should be any different.
> 
> Pellet manufacturers buy sawmill residue when they can get it, since they don't have to process or dry it as much as when they buy logs or other roundwood. As the price of logs rises, the price of sawmill residue (when they can get it) goes up as well. They're competing with papermills and other secondary manufacturers for the same residue, so price and availability is always uncertain.
> 
> ...




yup, the price of nearly everything IS rising....but the median fuel price is lower now than in April. The pellet co's also CONTRACT for raw product, setting their price AHEAD OF TIME, not in June. I was commenting more on the investor. Investment tends to drive many markets more than actual demand in many cases. Look at the futures market. It often isnt actual demand for product that is driving the price, but demand for INVESTMENT of the product.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 13, 2006)

I guess the market will determine whether or not you're right, Harry. If New England Wood Pellet is letting investor concerns govern its pricing policy, then they won't be in business for long--somebody else will come along and produce the same product for less money.

I know some of the people involved in NEWP and I believe they're in it for the long haul. But like I said, it will all get sorted out in the marketplace.


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## begreen (Jun 13, 2006)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> You gotta bear in mind that the price of everything is rising, so I don't know why pellets should be any different.
> 
> That's why I like heating with free firewood. Long-term, I don't think anyone saves much money burning pellets.



I burned pellets for 5 years and the price only went up 20/ton over that period. Relative to the leaky propane furnace in the crawlspace, the pellet stove saved me a lot of money. Due to it's very clean burning nature, I could run the stove during burn bans, some which lasted 2 weeks, during the coldest time of the year. And it gave me a convenience that I never experienced burning wood before. It burned 24/7, safely, even when I was at work. The stove sold for a good price. So the long-term for me was pretty good. 

I agree, that one needs to look at all the costs involved in one's local region. But for many of us, firewood is anything but cheap and natural gas isn't available. In the right region with a stable market, pellets are a very affordable alternative to folks that don't have access to less expensive alternatives. 16% of Sweden now is burning biomass, mostly pellets, so they must have some economic value.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 13, 2006)

Those are good points, BG. What I should have said is that I believe the price of pellets will closely track the price of other fuels, including oil, coal, gas, electric and processed firewood. And with the exception of natural gas and electric, the smart energy consumer can shop around and stock up when the price dips.


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## webbie (Jun 13, 2006)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I wish the auto industry followed the consumer electronics pricing model. No matter how hard I try to get ahead of the game, I'm still commiting about a quarter of my gross annual income when I buy a new car. It was that way in 1980 and it's still the case. The only difference today is that the sales taxes have more than doubled (9.5 percent where I live).



Wow, that's some high sales tax!

I still think cars are the ultimate value - looking around for something new for my son and the 2006 Honda Civic, which starts stripped at 14K, feels like a large luxury car on the interior. Amazing amount of safety gear. When you consider the weight and the materials - every tiny part is speced out - it is ONLY because of competition and productivity that we are able to see such a low price.

He doesn't like the car - it feels too big for him! But it gets 30/40 MPG.

Yes, the car might cost you a big %, but I will bet that the average car is safer and will last longer. That is progress of some sort.

BTW, isn't it telling that these Hondas - probably the top brand in the world in price/performace, are made in the USA by people in Ohio and other relatively high wage areas? It works against most arguments that say you can't make it here!

I would say you can make things here, BUT they have to be large quantities and/or they have to be relatively advanced products. This does not include sewing T-Shirts, etc.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 13, 2006)

Oneida County, NY. I hate to fork over $2,000 every time I buy a car, but that's the deal.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 13, 2006)

Got my stock up 16 may be 20 cords, when it is finally processed and stacked. I have another full size pk truck with side tool boxes wortth to pick up tonight. Problem is I cut up all the easy 16" diameter and smaller. ITs 2 30" logs 16" long that is the real pain. 
 My Stihl farm boss only has a 16" bar and barely makes it threw from both sides. And it is laying on the ground next to each other so cutting from both sides is impossible. I am going to dig out in the middle and try my car jack to raise and move the logs then block them up. They are so heavy, that I have to cut only 1' rounds then roll them up a ramp into my truck. The deal was, I have to take them all. Usually I would not bother. But I already got 3 cords. This is the first time, in a long time ,I miss the 20 or 24" bar I had. I could use one of the modern Husky's or Sthils with the longer bar. High RPMS.  Too much effort and cost to transport my backhoe to move the logs But I thought about it. I sold my trailer and soon the dump truck which is not registered and on the road.
 At my age I winding down  opperations hoping to be appointed a state inspector. I am also declining many roofing jobs. Takes a lot out of me great money,  At lease no two story ones.


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 13, 2006)

Have you tried a cant hook or a peavey, elk? Even a big iron bar might work. I'd loan you my peavey if you lived nearby. How about dragging them with the truck?


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## begreen (Jun 13, 2006)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Those are good points, BG. What I should have said is that I believe the price of pellets will closely track the price of other fuels, including oil, coal, gas, electric and processed firewood. And with the exception of natural gas and electric, the smart energy consumer can shop around and stock up when the price dips.



That's very true. I'll take free firewood anytime I can get it. No more than an hour after the last post my neighbor came over. His huge 80 yr. old big-leaf maple just calved off a huge chunk across the road. He plans on having the whole tree taken down and asked if I wanted some free wood. Big smiles here considering we'll be heating exclusively with wood and propane next winter.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 14, 2006)

Thanks Eric for the offer.  Part of the problem is the thickness one can not watch the progress of the bar Especially helpfull when near the ground So much more resistance when the bar does not go threw the log. Well the roll away car jack, did its thing. I was able to raise the log and  shift it around with a crow bar. After I raised I found it to be sitting on rocks  I could not see. I went to Home Cheapo last night looking for a 20 or 24" bar No luck. I thought they sold Oregon ones but have  Pro something  brand . Time for another chain. Once you get less than 33% left it ows me nothing.  Home Depot did have the correct 16" chain size $18.  I know probably crap but where else can you get one at 9:00 at night?  Most of what I cut is, what ever I can load in my truck. I'm not taking down lots of trees and clearing lots anymore. To me the perfect size is 4" to 12" rounds. I cut up to lengths and a lot is done with my cheapy electric saw.   So far this year I have gathered up enough to replace the 6 cords I used last year. One bummer is one of my sources is gone. Due to budget cuts, the town  closed the brush drop off area. That was good for at least 3 cords a year.


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## fbelec (Jun 15, 2006)

elk 

since the town closed the tree dump what do they do with the stuff they come up with during the year? trimming, tree falls across the road.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 15, 2006)

I guess the DPW can still dump the trees but it will be closed to the public. Really no plans or alternatives were mentioned.
Actually I was doing the town a favor,  every log I picked up saved disposal cost. Everything is chipped up in a huge mobarker.

Just like everything else  a few spoil it for the masses. ITs a brush drop off not common trash  tvs bikes washers. ect.  Now it has to be staffed and monitored. This is what they cut.  Therefore due to past abuse it will be closed to the public. We had free dunpsters till hazzardeous Medical waste was found. Then we had recycle dumpsters  glass, Paper, and Cardboard. Had to eliminate that practice, because people were disposing trash in them and when full, they just emptied out what ever they had on the near by ground. 

 Amazing from letters address were found identifing people in RI as far as 60 miles away. Found that most offenders were not  town residents. 

Other cost cutting measures were to limit trash pickup from 4 barrells per household to one but unlimited recycling. Additional bags could be purchased for $2 ea. This was to increase recyling.  Seemed like a good idea BUT
 We had a 5 year commitment to pay for x tonage of trash. IF we do not exceed the tonage we still have to pay for the x amount
 Very little savings,  although the recycle committee expounds our savings.  Second it  if you purchase extra bags nobody checks them for recycleables so it is common trash. To many they can't be bothered to recycle. I know it takes a few extra minutes.
When  recycling started to prosper we exceeded our allowable tonage and were charged additional tonage. Making the pay per bag trash even more attractive.  Mind you we still have to pay for x tonage till year 2008, Personally I make a decent effort to recycle. but many are too lazy to bother.  We are a wastefull fuelish society. I do not know the answers to make everbody responsible. There will always be abusers scoffers  that can't give a SH-- about being responsible


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 15, 2006)

I remember back in the late '70s and early '80s when you put your bundles of old newspapers and other paper waste on the curb, guys would come along and nab it before the city had a chance to collect it. The stuff is probably worth even more now, but apparently we're too well-off to bother.

I've been squashing and saving up aluminum catfood cans. Over time it might add up to something. I'm not sure our municipailty does anything with the "recycling" we put out other than toss it into the landfill, so I'd rather capitalize on the high cost of aluminum and other metals at some point in the future, rather than see it go to waste today.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 16, 2006)

start saving copper a roll of 14/2 250' last year was about 15-$17  yesterday at the supply house $103
 10 ' 1/2"L copper  pipe $26 per section. Common copper 1/2" elbows $1.50 each The  electrician just roughed in my 
 12/16 three season room total job quote including a 12 slot sub feeder pannel and electric baseboard heat $ 2,200
10 /3 250' roll of wire $365./ A lot of plumbers are switching to pex tubing, so much cheaper now. Why? blame Kathrina but the scrap copper is being bought up and sent to China. After re- processed it enters the world market. We are not the only ones in demand.
 Only a fraction of our scrap is returning to USA. Did you know a gallon of automotive antifreeze sells for $25 in India?


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## begreen (Jun 16, 2006)

They use antifreeze in India?


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## elkimmeg (Jun 16, 2006)

Anti freeze is also used to  prevent over heating. I also believe there are some Mountains Called Hymilayers that might get a Bit cold


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## Eric Johnson (Jun 16, 2006)

LOL, that 250 feet of 1" copper I bought three years ago to do my boiler is starting to look pretty cheap. Maybe I should replace it with Pex and cash in. I've got a big box full of copper & brass odds and ends, shot fittings and other copper scrap. Seems like I never throw anything away.


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## fbelec (Jun 16, 2006)

elk i knew you were going to say they gring up brush and small trees. what a waste. it's like throwing a couple of gallons of #2 oil in the trash. we have that same stupity of 4 barrels per house sometimes that hard to do. we recycle everything we can. here's a good one. 6 months ago they stopped taking our recycle bins and bags. i called and they said thay the man refused to take it because he seen foam from meat packages. they are marked recycle #7. they are suppose to pickup everything up to #7. so now i have to trow in the trash. soon enough i think there going to stop trash pickup all together. what good is picking up i barrel. they are going to make people start burning it again. because there is no place to put it. don't get me wrong there are not going to tell people to burn it but that how people will get rid of it.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 17, 2006)

Brush is dropped off and every day.A big front end loader pushes it into a pile. At that point. it is impossible to get at
 the useable  hardwoods. When the pile grows to large proportions, Everything is then chipped up. I bet 20 plus cords 
were turned into chips.  Where the chips go I don't know. All towns are facing budget short falls, its either approve an override,
 or start cutting back  employees and services.  The schools are last to suffer any cuts. Heaven forbid your Johnny has to have a class size of more than 22. Or pre schoolers have Spanish cut.  Our dept was asked to cut another 5% this year again.
 After 3 years of cutting there are only so many paper clips to eliminate. Laws govern out inspections,  inspections cost are suposed to equal services rendered.  We turned over $285K beyond expenses and salaries. My question to the finance committee was if we reduce hours or staff, We will not be able to turn over the same vollume read $$$ as quickly.  Would you be happy is we cut back 30,000 and only be able to turn over less than 200k? Meaning what you are asking us to do, is it worth another potential 100k short fall? We opened up the books for all to see and asked the committee if they could find surplusses that we could cut? They want 5% cut.  We are still waiting the justification behind their decision. They have not yet recomended any areas they find surpluses. 
 So it goes round and round. This is going on in every town.  Insurance increases and fuel cost have excalated beyond  tax essesments and revenues collected. We have a 2.5 tax law. Taxes  can go up only 2.5 % each year. That is fine when the state is gererous with aid. But not now the fed gov is not as gererous to states and in turn the states to the local towns. when insurance increases 15% a year and fuel cost 35%  all towns are in trouble


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## fbelec (Jun 17, 2006)

what a shame. 20 plus cords is like throwing 3000 dollars out in the trash.


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