# Buying an EV as a commuter vehicle -  does it make sense?



## semipro (Jun 13, 2019)

I drive my 2010 Tacoma 30 miles round trip daily to my workplace where I have access to free EV charging.   Most of my errand trips to town are 40 miles or less roundtrip.   I need the truck for hauling and winter transportation but have been considering investing in a used EV like a Nissan Leaf for commuting and errands rather than wearing out a truck that would cost $40k to replace.  I like the idea of the simplicity and low maintenance needs of an EV rather than a PHEV.   My wife drives a hybrid that we can take on road trips.  We could also take the Tacoma.  I'd also like to decrease my environmental footprint and have a spare vehicle around while the others are being repaired so my motivations are not purely economic. 

I'm looking at used Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) that cost about $7k with roughly 40k miles on them.  I'm not too concerned about known battery deterioration issues since even a deprecated battery should provide sufficient range, and DIY battery repair is a viable option for me.  

Am I missing any factors or options that might sway my thinking?


----------



## peakbagger (Jun 13, 2019)

Access to free EV charging and having access to a charger seems to be an issue I have heard from a few EV owners. I met someone with Volt this weekend and he was planning to charge at charging station at a public space. When I met him the space was occupied by a Leaf that had been plugged in at some unknown point. The charger was indicating it was no longer charging but no owner to be found. There were cars on either side so even if he did want to unplug the leaf and plug in his Volt he didn't have that option. I suppose if no one else at the company has an EV then you are covered but once a couple of folks do then it means someone has to coordinate charging and swapping cars around.

Still a great idea but just make sure you have plug with your name on it


----------



## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2019)

30 miles round trip you shouldn't need a charge at work should you? I would not plan on ever depending on these free charges but consider them a bonus. 

For a while you could get an off-lease leaf for 4000$. They are kind of dumb looking but the newest ones are better. 

I like your thinking. My 16 mile round trip commute would also be a prime candidate for a used leaf instead of a 15 mpg 7.3 liter diesel pulling a 7500# truck.


----------



## semipro (Jun 13, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I met someone with Volt this weekend and he was planning to charge at charging station at a public space. When I met him the space was occupied by a Leaf that had been plugged in at some unknown point. The charger was indicating it was no longer charging but no owner to be found. There were cars on either side so even if he did want to unplug the leaf and plug in his Volt he didn't have that option. I suppose if no one else at the company has an EV then you are covered but once a couple of folks do then it means someone has to coordinate charging and swapping cars around.


I thought about this issue earlier today and share your concern.  I think a friendly email amongst EV drivers would solve the problem at work though not a solution elsewhere.
Maybe there's an opportunity for an app where those needing a charge could scan your license plate or a QR code on your windshield and let you know that the space is needed for another EV.   The app as an intermediary could keep things anonymous and moving vehicles could be coordinated through it.  Of course, this would only work for those participating via the app.
Maybe this feature could be integrated into a large EV app that tracks charger location, availability, etc.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 13, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> 30 miles round trip you shouldn't need a charge at work should you? I would not plan on ever depending on these free charges but consider them a bonus.
> 
> For a while you could get an off-lease leaf for 4000$. They are kind of dumb looking but the newest ones are better.
> 
> I like your thinking. My 16 mile round trip commute would also be a prime candidate for a used leaf instead of a 15 mpg 7.3 liter diesel pulling a 7500# truck.



Is yours that bad? My father has one that averages 22 on the highway, 4x4 DRW auto. Makes me glad I didn't find any when diesel shopping


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 13, 2019)

Some day I'd like to get an EV for similar reasons. A lot of great points in this thread already. Something else to consider is cold weather performance. Low temps lower the charge and so far all the EVs I've read about use resistance heaters and those aren't kind to your range.


----------



## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Is yours that bad? My father has one that averages 22 on the highway, 4x4 DRW auto. Makes me glad I didn't find any when diesel shopping



I can pass 21 on the freeway too. Mines an auto SRW crew cab F350. You need longer drives to get the mpg up on a big diesel. They're piggy when cold and an 8 mile each way commute isn't enough to get it running efficiently. I get 11 or so when towing.


----------



## blades (Jun 13, 2019)

I can see a new model(s) of propane fired Mr Buddy heaters.  Think of the old Volkswagen Beatle's  with the gasoline fired heaters in them ( ya I know I am dating myself).  Pulling heat off the  eng via the pan tubes really sucked.  Used to have to scrape ice off both sides of the windshield. I had a little 12v heater permanently mounted on the dash for the drivers side of the windshield.  That helped some.

Currently pulling 18-20 mpg on my deleted 6.0 in a 250 ( 04), 3.73 rear 4x4 auto,extra cab short box, but my run is 42.5 miles one way.  That will improve a bit as the weather warms up. Best was 23.1, think all the stars were aligned correctly that trip.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 13, 2019)

Wow, I feel lucky. My mostly stock 06 5.9 Cummins 4 door, 4x4, 8' bed, DRW, 6 speed, 3.73 averages 24 in my rural setting. I can exceed 25 on long freeway drives. Towing all of our stuff up here to Maine through the mountains I averaged 18 MPG. I was looking for a 7.3 truck of similar spec but couldn't find one and the Ram kind of fell in my lap.


----------



## saewoody (Jun 13, 2019)

I had similar thoughts, but never for an EV. I have a 2004
Suburban 2500 getting about 11mpg in town. I have only a 7 mile drive to work each way. And most of my other driving is in town as well. So I started looking for a commuter car. I ended up with a 2005 Nissan Sentra with 125,000 on it for $1,200. An EV would be perfect for my scenario, but it’s not worth it to me to lay out that kind of money for a commuter car.  The Sentra will pay for itself after only a few months of driving it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 13, 2019)

semipro said:


> I'm looking at used Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) that cost about $7k with roughly 40k miles on them.  I'm not too concerned about known battery deterioration issues since even a deprecated battery should provide sufficient range, and DIY battery repair is a viable option for me.


Could get a good used volt for not much more and not have worry about getting stuck somewhere with a dead battery. Personally, i couldnt get past the weird look of the leaf.


----------



## begreen (Jun 13, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Could get a good used volt for not much more and not have worry about getting stuck somewhere with a dead battery. Personally, i couldnt get past the weird look of the leaf.


The Volt has a much nicer fit and finish. The first Leafs feel like an econobox next to the Volt.


----------



## peakbagger (Jun 14, 2019)

The Volts are impressive and used ones are affordable.One aspect to check out is getting in and out. The front windshield is angled low and getting in and out is challenge as its easy to knock your head on the pillar. Once inside its comfortable. My concern is I am not sure how well they will age as dealers did not sell a lot of volume and most only had a couple of techs trained to work on them. Now that they are out of production I wonder how long dealer support is going to hold up. Then again I expect its an overall issue with modern vehicles is they are probably going to be taken off the road due to technical (computer/ communication) issues rather then running gear.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 14, 2019)

begreen said:


> The Volt has a much nicer fit and finish. The first Leafs feel like an econobox next to the Volt.


The leaf is an econobox. The Volt is an econobox trying to justify its own high price. I love the engineering behind the Volt, but it's already a dying breed. PHEV are just so compex


----------



## semipro (Jun 14, 2019)

I considered a Volt strongly but want to avoid the complexity and maintenance of a PHEV.   I'm familiar with Volts as we've had some at work for years. I want an uncomplicated econobox with a battery that I may be able to upgrade/repair myself.  I actually own a Volt battery and its far from the same level of serviceability as that of the Leaf. 

Someone I work with, who's opinion I value highly, recently went looking for a PHEV and came home with a new Honda Clarity.   His original intent was to buy a Volt but found the Clarity to be a much better build and ride.


----------



## begreen (Jun 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> The leaf is an econobox. The Volt is an econobox trying to justify its own high price. I love the engineering behind the Volt, but it's already a dying breed. PHEV are just so compex


The Volt is not an econobox. If you owned one you wouldn't be making that statement. It's significantly better detailed and more fully featured than the original Leaf and has much better battery protection. Out on a windy road and particularly on long freeway drives it is a more comfortable and better behaved vehicle. Chevy got it right with the Volt. It's a shame that they discontinued it, but that is a good opportunity to get a good deal on one. We may see the Volt again, perhaps reborn as an SUV.

The Clarity wasn't out when we got our Volt. One important factor for us is the hatchback utility with the fold-down rear seat for greater big item hauling capacity.  That cut out several cars we looked at would include the Clarity. Although I have owned a few Hondas and like them, I have not warmed up to the Clarity's looks either, but I like that it is a true 5 passenger car.

semipro, sounds like the Leaf would work out fine for you as a commuter car. There is also the Focus electric which may show up on your search.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 15, 2019)

begreen said:


> The Volt is not an econobox. If you owned one you wouldn't be making that statement. It's significantly better detailed and more fully featured than the original Leaf and has much better battery protection. Out on a windy road and particularly on long freeway drives it is a more comfortable and better behaved vehicle. Chevy got it right with the Volt. It's a shame that they discontinued it, but that is a good opportunity to get a good deal on one. We may see the Volt again, perhaps reborn as an SUV.
> 
> The Clarity wasn't out when we got our Volt. One important factor for us is the hatchback utility with the fold-down rear seat for greater big item hauling capacity.  That cut out several cars we looked at would include the Clarity. Although I have owned a few Hondas and like them, I have not warmed up to the Clarity's looks either, but I like that it is a true 5 passenger car.
> 
> semipro, sounds like the Leaf would work out fine for you as a commuter car. There is also the Focus electric which may show up on your search.



Own a luxury car and you will see the Volt is just a well built econobox just like the Corolla and Civic.


----------



## PaulOinMA (Jun 15, 2019)

Neighbor had an Audi A8L for his few mile commute to work.  Got a Volt after that and he loved the Volt.  Perfect for his commute.

His colleague that is also a neighbor drove a 500-h.p. BMW M6 convertible the few miles.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 15, 2019)

I'm not saying the Volt is a pile, I actually quite like the first gen, but it's not a luxury car. It's an economical car, but that doesn't mean it's bad. My wife's car has features found on a Mercedes, but her Fiat is far from a luxury car and is still an econobox. Perhaps it would be better to call the Volt a "premium" economy car? Like Buick, just a bunch of European economy cars with nicer interior features, which I also happen to like, especially their new wagon, but I also like the Opels upon which they are based.


----------



## begreen (Jun 15, 2019)

Have driven my SIL's BMW and BIL's Lexus several times as they also have driven the Volt. The Volt is more fully featured than my SIL's BMW. She loved driving the Volt and this is from someone that is a die-hard BMW owner. No one ever claimed the Volt is a luxury car but there is a huge gulf between econoboxes and high-end luxury cars. The Volt falls in between like the Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, etc.. Of course it's more expensive, it has a huge battery in it.  FWIW, I have a friend that has an early 2000s Mercedes. I will take the Volt any day to that car. It certainly has been more reliable and it is more fully featured and has nicer detailing like the upholstery leather stitching.
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1026335_chrysler-not-to-blame-for-mercedes-drop-in-quality


PaulOinMA said:


> Neighbor had an Audi A8L for his few mile commute to work.  Got a Volt after that and he loved the Volt.  Perfect for his commute.
> 
> His colleague that is also a neighbor drove a 500-h.p. BMW M6 convertible the few miles.


My neighbor had an A4 and he loves our Volt. After a test drive he said he liked the Volt better overall. A few months later he upgraded to an A6. Now that is a really nice car and he's definitely one up on me.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 15, 2019)

begreen said:


> Have driven my SIL's BMW and BIL's Lexus several times as they also have driven the Volt. The Volt is more fully featured than my SIL's BMW. She loved driving the Volt and this is from someone that is a die-hard BMW owner. No one ever claimed the Volt is a luxury car but there is a huge gulf between econoboxes and high-end luxury cars. The Volt falls in between like the Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, etc.. Of course it's more expensive, it has a huge battery in it.  FWIW, I have a friend that has an early 2000s Mercedes. I will take the Volt any day to that car. It certainly has been more reliable and it is more fully featured and has nicer detailing like the upholstery leather stitching.
> https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1026335_chrysler-not-to-blame-for-mercedes-drop-in-quality
> 
> My neighbor had an A4 and he loves our Volt. After a test drive he said he liked the Volt better overall. A few months later he upgraded to an A6. Now that is a really nice car and he's definitely one up on me.


Features do not equal luxury. Hyundais have heated and cooled seats, power steering wheels, etc. You can alternatively get a Bently without heated seats, but that doesn't make the Hyundai more luxurious. Talk to any person who works in the auto industry, the Volt is an economy car. You also can't compare two cars with fifteen years of R&D between them.

Edit: could be more than fifteen years depending on which MB. Compare a brand new C class to a new Volt, equally equipped. There's a world of difference.


----------



## begreen (Jun 15, 2019)

Dude, no one ever said that the Volt or any other car is a luxury car. It is designed to be economical, so is the Lexus 300h. That does not make it an econobox. You seem to only be able to equate vehicles in one category or the other. There is a world of options in between.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jun 15, 2019)

begreen said:


> The Volt falls in between like the Ford Fusion, Honda Accord, etc..


OK begreen, I get that you really like your Volt, but Fusion or Accord?.... Really????
I was just talking with a co-worker last nite who loves his Volt. Driven over 7000 miles on electric, and less than 1000 on gas, since Oct 2018 purchase. Mentioned how feature rich it was, and how his only problem is he has to drive with his seat up a bit to give leg room to his kid in the back booster seat. That's my definition of an econobox. He doesn't have to do that in his wife's Accord.


----------



## begreen (Jun 15, 2019)

*Econobox* is a United States informal slang term for a small, boxy, fuel-efficient economy car with few luxuries and a low price. The term is typically used for cars from the 1970s and 1980s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econobox

If rear seat legroom is the definition then I guess the Mercedes 2-door C class and BMW M2 are econoboxes.


----------



## DuaeGuttae (Jun 15, 2019)

semipro said:


> I drive my 2010 Tacoma 30 miles round trip daily to my workplace where I have access to free EV charging.   Most of my errand trips to town are 40 miles or less roundtrip.   I need the truck for hauling and winter transportation but have been considering investing in a used EV like a Nissan Leaf for commuting and errands rather than wearing out a truck that would cost $40k to replace.  I like the idea of the simplicity and low maintenance needs of an EV rather than a PHEV.   My wife drives a hybrid that we can take on road trips.  We could also take the Tacoma.  I'd also like to decrease my environmental footprint and have a spare vehicle around while the others are being repaired so my motivations are not purely economic.
> 
> I'm looking at used Nissan Leafs (Leaves?) that cost about $7k with roughly 40k miles on them.  I'm not too concerned about known battery deterioration issues since even a deprecated battery should provide sufficient range, and DIY battery repair is a viable option for me.
> 
> Am I missing any factors or options that might sway my thinking?




My husband needed a commuter car once we moved to Texas (he had always used biking and metro or carpooling before).  We were able to get a lightly used 2017 LEAF and really love it.  Even if we had to replace the battery without warranty help, we concluded it was more economical than other options.  We don’t have a lot of worries about cold weather range, but we did buy an electric blanket that plugs into the car for kids in the backseat.  We’re a family of six, so we were only looking for this to be the commuting and errand car, but we are glad that it seats five (even with car seats).

I can’t tell you what other options are out there or what you might be missing.  I’ll just say that we are very pleased with our purchase and with not needing to use the minivan for everything.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jun 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> *Econobox* ..................
> If rear seat legroom is the definition then I guess the Mercedes 2-door C class and BMW M2 are econoboxes.



Yup !


----------



## Ashful (Jun 17, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> ... his only problem is he has to drive with his seat up a bit to give leg room to his kid in the back booster seat. That's my definition of an econobox. He doesn't have to do that in his wife's Accord.



I had to do the same with my wife’s last Audi, and you wouldn’t catch me dead in an Accord.  However, I wouldn’t be holding the lowly A4 up as any standard of luxury to be met, begreen.  That aforementioned A8L is a serious car, though.

500 hp cars on 8 mile commutes?  We must live in the same neighborhood, Paul!

I feel the barrier to entry for EV’s is no longer battery life, for many buyers, but cost and charging capability.  The Tesla 3’s are fantastic, but average maybe $15k over an equivalently appointed ICE.  And then there’s always going to be that issue of running a dedicated charging circuit to the garage, in older homes.


----------



## maple1 (Jun 18, 2019)

Hey, what's wrong with Accords? 

This thread is kind of veering - but as far as the original question, isn't commuting where EVs should do what they do the best?


----------



## semipro (Jun 18, 2019)

maple1 said:


> isn't commuting where EVs should do what they do the best?


Yes, but my original question focuses on whether it's worth buying a 3rd vehicle, a dedicated commuter, for a household with two drivers. 
As usual, I've now complicated matters more with my realization that I may want this car also to serve as a "dinghy" behind an RV.


----------



## peakbagger (Jun 18, 2019)

If its third vehicle instead of replacing a vehicle, there can be some hefty holding costs. In my state I have to pay yearly excise tax (AKA property tax) on my car based on value, for the first five years it can be steep and then drops to some low value. Then there is registration on top of excise and insurance which is usually based on the worse driver driving the best car. 

EVs tend to weigh a lot compared to an econobox although they all are getting porky due to all the safety standards (which are great if you are in an accident but not so great if you are dragging it). My guess is with a tow vehicle int he picture the balance swings to a gas econobox as I expect few campgrounds are going to have a hookup sized for charging a car.


----------



## semipro (Jun 18, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> My guess is with a tow vehicle int he picture the balance swings to a gas econobox as I expect few campgrounds are going to have a hookup sized for charging a car.


Which is why I'm now eaning more towards a PHEV and charging via connection to the RV. 
I'm also planning PV power for the RV roof so there's an opportunity to charge the dinghy from solar and/or the grid and for tapping the dingy's battery for storage and engine/generator for RV power - though I realize that that sort of interconnectivity can be very challenging.
I had hoped to avoid the infernal combustion engine in the commuter/dinghy for simplicity but its advantages may ultimately win out.


----------



## peakbagger (Jun 18, 2019)

Too bad there are no cheap diesels these days so you can share fuel with the camper.  

My standard Fiesta gets 41 MPH and was cheap to buy and reliable to date. The automatic Fiestas are crap and that keeps the values low. Still if you don't mind a stick, hard to beat for the price.


----------



## semipro (Jun 18, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Too bad there are no cheap diesels these days so you can share fuel with the camper.
> 
> My standard Fiesta gets 41 MPH and was cheap to buy and reliable to date. The automatic Fiestas are crap and that keeps the values low. Still if you don't mind a stick, hard to beat for the price.


I like a stick and a manual transmission would allow flat towing behine an RV.


----------



## begreen (Jun 18, 2019)

Electric cars are not flat towable because they have no real 'neutral' that disengages the motor(s). You would need a tow-dolly. Also, they are not 12v chargeable and one would need a whopping inverter to boost to 120 or 240v to do so.


----------



## semipro (Jun 18, 2019)

begreen said:


> Electric cars are not flat towable because they have no real 'neutral' that disengages the motor(s). You would need a tow-dolly. Also, they are not 12v chargeable and one would need a whopping inverter to boost to 120 or 240v to do so.


Some EVs are reportedly flat towable - the Ford Fusion Energi for one.  You do have to run the engine and engage the transmission every 6 hr. or so to maintain driveline lubrication. 
The towed EV would be charged via the RV's onboard 120/240 VAC solar PV system (with battery storage) rather than via 12 VDC.


----------



## begreen (Jun 18, 2019)

Ah, I thought we were talking EVs. The Fusion Energi is a hybrid (PHEV) with an actual neutral. There is no need to charge this hybrid, it has the ICE for backup.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 18, 2019)

semipro said:


> Yes, but my original question focuses on whether it's worth buying a 3rd vehicle, a dedicated commuter, for a household with two drivers.


Financially, never.  You need to consider the intangible benefits, if you want to make any case for a 3rd vehicle in a two-driver household.

Trust me, I have looked at this from all angles, even including some pretty insanely bad MPG's for the vehicle theoretically removed from commuter duty.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Financially, never.  You need to consider the intangible benefits, if you want to make any case for a 3rd vehicle in a two-driver household.
> 
> Trust me, I have looked at this from all angles, even including some pretty insanely bad MPG's for the vehicle theoretically removed from commuter duty.


No one vehicle can do all things well. Were now up to 4 vehicles again,with 2 drivers in the household.  You only live once!


----------



## Where2 (Jun 18, 2019)

semipro said:


> As usual, I've now complicated matters more with my realization that I may want this car also to serve as a "dinghy" behind an RV.





peakbagger said:


> Too bad there are no cheap diesels these days so you can share fuel with the camper.



I rigged our 2004 VW Jetta Wagon_TDI for flat towing behind our 29' Workhorse chassis Winnebago... I can't share fuel between the two, but that doesn't stop me from dragging the 1.9L diesel powered station wagon along for the trip... The V8 in the Workhorse barely notices it's even back there. 7mpg to 8mpg is consistently what I get bringing the kitchen, the bath, a sofa, a dinette and two slides along. When we replaced my wife's 06 TDI with a 2013 earlier this year, we specifically chose the 6 speed manual, so we can rig it to tow behind the RV if anything ever happens to the 2004.

After the wife got a newer car, I really had the urge to pickup a 2015 E-Golf to replace the 2004, but when I looked at what I'd be giving up, I couldn't justify it. Can't flat tow it, can't jump in it and drive 600+ miles without refueling, can't fit a filing cabinet in it, and my daily commute is a mere 1.5 miles... I really just need to get out my bicycle and bike to work!! (after I plug the 5W solar panel in to keep the 04 TDI battery charged while it sits home). Adding another car to the insurance bill is out of the question. I'm already paying enough for the motorhome to sit parked!!


----------



## Ashful (Jun 19, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> No one vehicle can do all things well. Were now up to 4 vehicles again,with 2 drivers in the household.  You only live once!



Of course.  Those are the “intangible benefits” to which I was referring.  It would be disingenuous of me to suggest anyone have only one vehicle, I have pretty much always owned multiple, but I’m under no false impression that buying another vehicle is going to somehow save me money.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 19, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Of course.  Those are the “intangible benefits” to which I was referring.  It would be disingenuous of me to suggest anyone have only one vehicle, I have pretty much always owned multiple, but I’m under no false impression that buying another vehicle is going to somehow save me money.


I did those same calculations, your right ,its not even close.


----------



## semipro (Jun 19, 2019)

begreen said:


> Ah, I thought we were talking EVs.


We were.  I drifted towards PHEVs once I started thinking about towing it behind an RV.


----------



## woodgeek (Jun 19, 2019)

Welp, I have had a gen 1 LEAF, a 2017 Bolt EV and now a 2015 Volt.  

They are all cars whose fit and finish feel cheap, but whose driving dynamics feel really nice/fun, not cheap at all.  The Bolt was the best of the three, and the most expensive.

I suspect Jim's Model 3 blows it away.


----------



## jebatty (Jun 20, 2019)

Two drivers, three cars, living in a rural area in north central Minnesota: Tesla Model 3 purchased new in March 2019, Chevy Bolt purchased new in February 2018, and a 2007 Toyota Camry with a trailer hitch purchased used in 2018 with 161,733 miles on it. 

The Bolt (our rural commuter car) covers 100% of my local driving, summer and winter, which is anything within 150 mile round trip, and an occasional 150 mile one-way trip to Minneapolis/St. Paul which requires battery charging for the return trip. After 18,000 miles, only maintenance so far on the Bolt is filling the windshield washer tank, checking/adjusting tire pressure occasionally. Charging is overnight from a Level 2 charger in the garage. DC fast charge on the trips to the Cities. Hatchback design has been good enough to transport a new dishwasher a few months ago and yesterday an over-stuffed easy chair. No complaints about the Bolt.

The Tesla, with nearly 5,000 miles now, is a dream car, and it is my wife's dream to drive. My wife drives the Tesla for her local rural transportation needs, and I drive most of our trips to see family in Minneapolis/St. Paul, and trips beyond. Every compliment I could give would be an understatement. The Tesla is an absolute joy to drive. With abundant Superchargers almost everywhere, we can and do drive the Tesla almost anywhere. Basic charging at home from a Level 2 charger in the garage and Supercharge when on the road. Spacious trunk in the rear and a frunk in the front. Wife, me and two dogs travel with ease, comfort, exceptional safety, and outrageous performance.

The Toyota is our camping vehicle, and also functions as our emergency backup vehicle (for an emergency that has never happened yet). With a trailer hitch that carries a bicycle rack or pulls our small tear-drop trailer (with the bikes on the trailer), we can travel the back country without a second thought.

This is the vehicle perfect mix for us. And the icing on the cake is that the Bolt and the Tesla get their electrons from our 12.3kW solar PV system. No stops at gas stations, no smelly gas fumes, and our small contribution to keeping planet Earth healthy.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 20, 2019)

jebatty said:


> This is the vehicle perfect mix for us. And the icing on the cake is that the Bolt and the Tesla get their electrons from our 12.3kW solar PV system. No stops at gas stations, no smelly gas fumes, and our small contribution to keeping planet Earth healthy.


As the owner of both the bolt and a volt and tesla which one is more roomy inside. Leg room, elbow room ect.  Im 6-3, 235lbs and even in my 2015 full size GMC truck the driver seat area is surprisingly cramped.


----------



## woodgeek (Jun 20, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> As the owner of both the bolt and a volt and tesla which one is more roomy inside. Leg room, elbow room ect.  Im 6-3, 235lbs and even in my 2015 full size GMC truck the driver seat area is surprisingly cramped.



The Bolt would not be a problem for you in height or legroom, but it might feel a little narrow sideways.  The volt would be a tad cramped IMO.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 21, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> Welp, I have had a gen 1 LEAF, a 2017 Bolt EV and now a 2015 Volt.
> 
> They are all cars whose fit and finish feel cheap, but whose driving dynamics feel really nice/fun, not cheap at all.  The Bolt was the best of the three, and the most expensive.
> 
> I suspect Jim's Model 3 blows it away.



You get what I was saying, it's the materials and fit and finish that makes these cars "econoboxes". I think small EV hatchbacks naturally lend themselves to enjoyable driving due to their size and weight (specifically lots of it down low). Narrow hard tires make for a lively experience as well if the traction nannies can be disengaged


----------



## woodgeek (Jun 21, 2019)

Indeed Spacebus.  But having driven small ICE cars, I am saying something different.  EV drivetrains just feel more luxe, more fun, more man-machine fusion, and are more pleasant (quieter, less smelly, less motion sickness inducing) across the board.

So I have never really cared about finish, but I now am an EVangelist... I can never go back to an ICE drivetrain.  The Volt is not really compromising that....the drivetrain is still 100% electric when I am in 'gas mode' and the driving dynamics are unchanged (the traction battery is used as a buffer for max power/acceleration, even when 'depleted').  There is just this slightly annoying thrum under the hood on long roadtrips.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jun 21, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> Indeed Spacebus.  But having driven small ICE cars, I am saying something different.  EV drivetrains just feel more luxe, more fun, more man-machine fusion, and are more pleasant (quieter, less smelly, less motion sickness inducing) across the board.
> 
> So I have never really cared about finish, but I now am an EVangelist... I can never go back to an ICE drivetrain.  The Volt is not really compromising that....the drivetrain is still 100% electric when I am in 'gas mode' and the driving dynamics are unchanged (the traction battery is used as a buffer for max power/acceleration, even when 'depleted').  There is just this slightly annoying thrum under the hood on long roadtrips.


Every Volt owner I've met loves them. By all accounts the driving dynamics for all the GM electrified vehicles are quite good. I'd love a spark EV with that monster torque!


----------



## Ashful (Jun 21, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> I now am an EVangelist... I can never go back to an ICE drivetrain.



Since we are almost in the same neighborhood, I’m tempted to put you behind the wheel of a 500 hp ICE, and see if I can make you eat those words.  You’re within 100 miles of me, so I think I can just make it there on one tank of gas.  [emoji14]

After driving two Tesla’s, both out of the price range I’m really willing to spend right now, I am also an EV convert.  I will never give up my illogical love for the guttural roar of big-displacement ICEs, but the performance of some of the high-dollar EVs is just... ludicrous.  There is no way to argue against them, other than the current cost and lack of models, both of which I suspect will be improved vastly over the next ten years.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 21, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> The Bolt would not be a problem for you in height or legroom, but it might feel a little narrow sideways.  The volt would be a tad cramped IMO.


And the Tesla? 
Id bet most people would take the All Electric Range hit for a roomy SUV type EV .  Something your climbing in and out of several times a day, cant be a phone booth on wheels. As i get older the comfort factor goes up. People all around me much larger (wider) than myself. The Newer vehicles seem more cramped then the older ones.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 21, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> As the owner of both the bolt and a volt and tesla which one is more roomy inside. Leg room, elbow room ect.  Im 6-3, 235lbs and even in my 2015 full size GMC truck the driver seat area is surprisingly cramped.



A friend of mine owned a Volt for 2 years, and now he has had a Bolt for almost 2 years.  I just checked with him, and he is very similar to your dimensions, at 6’-4” and 230 lb.  He said the Volt was completely comfortable, no issues whatsoever.  The Bolt is good on head room and leg room, but he initially noticed the seat was a bit too narrow for him.  He thought it would bother him on long trips, since the seat pushed into his hips a bit, but after two years he reports it has really become a non-issue.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> but he initially noticed the seat was a bit too narrow for him.  He thought it would bother him on long trips, since the seat pushed into his hips a bit, but after two years he reports it has really become a non-issue.


  Narrow seats are a part of the problem. Im only 16in wide at the hips and i barely fit in my GMC truck driver seat with the center console down. Same in the camaro. On a recent flight to tenessee in a midsized jet it was a snug fit between the arm rests on the plane.  I know a good % of the population is wider than 16in. Many quite a bit wider. Also my knees hit the dash in the truck if im not careful getting in ,that with the seat all the way back. Much tighter than my older trucks were. Ill have to get used to it like your friend i guess.


----------



## begreen (Jun 21, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Narrow seats are a part of the problem. Im only 16in wide at the hips and i barely fit in my GMC truck driver seat with the center console down. Same in the camaro. On a recent flight to tenessee in a midsized jet it was a snug fit between the arm rests on the plane.  I know a good % of the population is wider than 16in. Many quite a bit wider. Also my knees hit the dash in the truck if im not careful getting in ,that with the seat all the way back. Much tighter than my older trucks were. Ill have to get used to it like your friend i guess.


I've found the F150/F250 with the front bench seat to be swimming with room. That said, with the low roofline, I do have to duck my head to get in the Volt. I have a fussy back so proper support is one of the most important things for me on a trip. The Volt has been great in this regard. The F150 bench seat is not as good in spite of having a total range of adjustments.


----------



## DBoon (Jun 24, 2019)

Another Bolt owner here - wouldn't go back. If I go easy on the speed and acceleration, I can get 300 mile range in warm weather. The acceleration surprises everyone who is in it. Seats are fine as far as I am concerned (though I am not a big person by any means). Yeah, the interior plastic looks a little cheap, but then again, I didn't pay Tesla money for this car and while others are talking about how an EV will be there car someday, I'm driving one right now for not a ridiculous amount of money. It is a quieter, smoother, better ride than what most others have who have paid as much or more. There is also nothing like a great sound system in an EV.


----------



## jebatty (Jun 25, 2019)

DBoon - my feelings exactly.


----------



## semipro (Jun 25, 2019)

I've encountered a bit of a challenge with respect to buying a commuter EV - how best to get it home?
I'm looking mostly at Leafs due to their availability and price, some as far away as several hundred miles.  With 80 miles of range and a 3.5 hr. Level 2 recharge time I could make the trip home in several hops between chargers.   Alternatively, I could haul it on my 18 ft. trailer, rent a car trailer, or rent a car dolly.  
Something else to consider. I guess at least I have options.


----------



## Highbeam (Jun 25, 2019)

semipro said:


> I've encountered a bit of a challenge with respect to buying a commuter EV - how best to get it home?
> I'm looking mostly at Leafs due to their availability and price, some as far away as several hundred miles.  With 80 miles of range and a 3.5 hr. Level 2 recharge time I could make the trip home in several hops between chargers.   Alternatively, I could haul it on my 18 ft. trailer, rent a car trailer, or rent a car dolly.
> Something else to consider. I guess at least I have options.



I would just throw it on the trailer. I've owned flatbed trailers and rented car trailers from U-haul recently. They're 50$ a day and very well built to be easy to load, tow, and tie down cars. You'll be towing this thing for 6 hours. A 12 hour road trip. Keep it easy.


----------



## maple1 (Jun 25, 2019)

Second the Uhaul trailer - if you don't want to wear & tear yours. We moved across the country from AB to NS in 1993, Uhauling it. A box van pulling a trailer with an Accord on it. Asked for a diesel but when I showed up to pick it up it was a gas. Averaged 4mpg - that was expensive even with cheap gas. We had issues before we got here, but not overly serious and none with the trailer setup. Have also rented small cargo trailers from them the past couple years for some furniture moving episodes - hard to go wrong at $15-19/day (depending on size).

If you go there & drive it back, you will need two drivers. Or bus it or something one way.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 25, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I would just throw it on the trailer.


Practical solution, but let’s not let the irony of towing an EV behind a gas guzzler due to range shortcomings pass us by, without sufficient attention.  I’d have some sort of banner to hang on the back of that rig, when passing thru blue states.


----------



## semipro (Jun 25, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Practical solution, but let’s not let the irony of towing an EV behind a gas guzzler due to range shortcomings pass us by, without sufficient attention.  I’d have some sort of banner to hang on the back of that rig, when passing thru blue states.


1st banner idea for the back of the Leaf: "Zero Emission Vehicle"


----------



## Highbeam (Jun 25, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Practical solution, but let’s not let the irony of towing an EV behind a gas guzzler due to range shortcomings pass us by, without sufficient attention.



I don't see it as a shortcoming as much as a limitation. I would be happy to pick one up in my smoking diesel truck!


----------

