# newbie - not sure which way to go on spray foam insulation



## gtown (Nov 21, 2008)

I am a newbie to hearth,.com.  This is a great website - been lurking since the spring reading all the faq's, reading reviews and searching the forums for questions.  I have not been able to find out enough information to help me with a decision.  Here's the info:

We bought our home in the late spring.  We have a 3 season porch that is awesome, but it's a 3 season porch - not much use in the winter in MA.  All glass two pane sliders.  We decided on getting a pellet stove so we could heat that room and have ambient heat in kitchen and for the room over the garage.  Plan on using ceiling fans to distribute heat.  

At the time I was figuring out which stove to go with, I had to deal with other repairs due to moisture damage of having now gutters.  When I was able to return to deciding (used cardboard mockups), everybody was ordering pellet stoves.  We went with Harman and told I was 240 on the list and not to expect it until March 09.  Figured tough luck on my part and was willing to wait for the stove we wanted.

A couple of weeks ago, got a call from the dealer and our stove would be coming in around Thanksgiving.  Had not planned on it, now we have to scramble.  The three season porch is over a crawlspace with a concrete foundation and a dirt floor.  Clearance from the ground to bottom of floor joist is 22".  Access to it is from a larger crawlspace that is under the backhall / bathroom / backhall closet.  It also has a concrete foundation with a dirt floor but is about 3 1/2' high from floor to bottom of joist.  It has fiberglass insullation, but appears to be hanging lower  on the wire hangars.  The floors of that area of the house feels a lot colder than the rest of the house.  These additions were built in 1990.  The main house was build in 1965 and has a full basement with conrete walls and floor.

I also want the rim joists sprayed at the same time - (if it is not too expensive).

I want to insulate these two spaces with spray foam insulation.  None of the spaces is below grade.  I got four bids for the job from four companies.  One was a soy based closed cell, one was another closed cell 2lb foam and the remaining two were for Icynene.

For the same money I could get an R9 rating for the soy based closed cell or go with a R30 rating of the Icynene.  For 50% more, I could go with a R19 rating of the other closed cell foam - plus they would do a quick scimcoat down to the plastic liner on the floor.

I had researched bobvilla, toh, diy on spray foam.  When the closed cell vendors were at my house, they said to use closed cell and stay away from open cell because of moisture.  When the open cell vendors we at my house, they recommended Icynene,   I asked if I needed closed cell because of the space between the ground and the joists under the three season porch.  They said no, but added they could spray closed cell if I really wanted to, but it would be 50% more expensive.  They said for what I wanted to do, Icynene would do the trick.

So my struggle comes down to am I better off with a R30 of Icynene open cell spray foam versus the closed cell benefits, but with only a R9 rating.

We had major amounts of rain this past summer and I did get water in the main basement.  This was due to a combination of a lack of hose on the sump pump (now remedied) and no gutters (now remedied too).  But I did not get water in the crawl space - higher than the basement floor.  So I don't think I will get standing water next to the open cell insulation.

Sorry for the novel, but wanted to make sure I provided enough information.  Thanks in advance!  This is a great site - definitely learned a lot, was instrumental in my research of a pellet stove...

Bob


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## BJN644 (Nov 21, 2008)

The soy based stuff I had installed (Heatlok Soy) had an R value of 6.5 per inch, if you were quoted R9 they must be using something different or putting it on thin. I have never heard of the other stuff you mentioned and I was also told to stay away from open cell (sponge) foam.


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## snowtime (Nov 21, 2008)

I do not have experience with spray foam but my take is you will have condensation under that floor and need the closed foam option. When you start heating the room it will cause more condensation. You do not want mold to start moving up the walls. Seal everything from the moisture in the dirt.


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## gtown (Nov 21, 2008)

The soy foam is "biobased 1701" closed cell foam - according to their website...


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## sgcsalsero (Nov 22, 2008)

I think there is a good building science website referenced in some posts here (maybe early this year).  I have Icynene in one section   of basement but I wouldn't use it near a moisture prone area.  I certainly think the sills and between joists is okay, nearer the dirt floor hmmm I don't think so.  Again, do a search for building science.  I think closed cell is 7.5 R per inch, two inches should do it for basement / crawlspace, or so I recall being told that.  

You are fortunate to have found 4 guys to come out, did they break it down to the cost per board foot ? 12"x12"x1"

Did they use another way to estimate, I asked one guy last year and didn't break it down despite asking twice.  I think based on some calcs I did last year anything in the .40 to .50 cent per board ft. and you are doing ok.

DIY is not out of the question, however it comes down to pricing, if tiger foam / fomo foam cost 1.25 per bd. ft. and a contractor will do it for 50% less it's a no brainer to me.

By the way, did any of the contractors quote closed cell that is fire rated . . don't know if there are any code considerations in your neck of the woods


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## dvellone (Nov 22, 2008)

You really should consider putting a vapor barrier on the floor of the crawl space regardless of which way you go with insulation. That's a standard construction practice to prevent damaging moisture when you have a dirt floor in the crawlspace. 
Remember when considering r-values of foam that they are true r-values. R-value measurements when considering fiberglass are based on optimal conditions - no compression of the fiberglass and no air movement through the insulation. As soon as either occurs the r-value can drop significantly. With foam there is no air movement and no compression - R-9 means R-9. With air infiltration and installation that compresses the fiberglass r-19 might drop to r-10 or lower. Air infiltration really causes it to plummet.  You might want to think about insulating your foundation walls. No matter how much insulation you dump under the floor it'll still feel cold if the space underneath is frigid. I put  r-40 under my floor and until I insulated the walls of the crawlspace you wouldn't have thought there was r-11 under your feet.


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## gtown (Nov 22, 2008)

dvellone said:
			
		

> You really should consider putting a vapor barrier on the floor of the crawl space regardless of which way you go with insulation. That's a standard construction practice to prevent damaging moisture when you have a dirt floor in the crawlspace.



There is plastic sheet already down but probably 4mil - it's pretty beat up, so I will replace it with at least 7 mil.  Is it ok to put the new plastic on top of old or will that create layers of slime?



> You might want to think about insulating your foundation walls.



The guy with the highest bid was going to spray the crawlspace walls 1.5" (R10) from the joists to the plastic on the floor with foam.  If I did not go with this bid, I was going to insulate the walls in the crawl space next summer with closed cell and tiger spray - don't think I can keep the 70* temp min for the application.  He was the only one who had suggested to spray the walls.

One thing I did not like about the soybased company was they took their measurements from the outside of the house and to measure the rim joist, they measured the length of each surface.  Not sure if this was the method used by the Big Dig Project, but it doubled everyone else in terms the pricing of the rim joist - including the other closed cell company.

Sorry for the delay in response - last night and this morning's project was to put the pipe insulation on the forced hot water pipes and the hot water pipes.


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## hankjrfan (Nov 22, 2008)

I had foam sprayed in between the rafters of an existing deck recently.    Didn't think to ask the guy what he was specific type of foam he was spraying.   I paid for 1 1/2" but he must have put that stuff 4" thick.    Good stuff.   Mice or vermin won't nibble at it, no air penetration.    Floor is more stable.    Worth the money for sure.


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## sgcsalsero (Nov 23, 2008)

gtown said:
			
		

> with closed cell and tiger spray - don't think I can keep the 70* temp min for the application.



strap the spray tanks to a cheap luggage cart, and then wrap the tanks with an electric blanket, one hour at highest setting and you are good to go....keep the blanket on if you can and drag around


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## gtown (Nov 23, 2008)

> strap the spray tanks to a cheap luggage cart, and then wrap the tanks with an electric blanket, one hour at highest setting and you are good to go....keep the blanket on if you can and drag around



Wow that sounds like a great idea...  Will give it some thought.

As for closed cell vs open cell - I thought that open cell was able to create a relatively air tight barrier.  I know that the cells are open and you don't want to have it below grade, but is it that porous that it will absorb water vapor and create an area of mold between the insulation and the subflooring and/or floor joists?

If I got the closed cell guy to give an R19 layer, could I go back with tiger foam and give it another couple of inches to bring it up to R30?  Will new foam adhere to existing foam?

With that train of thought, if I went with the open cell bid to fill the floor joists, could I go back with the closed cell tiger foam at a later date and skim-coat a layer  of the closed cell to seal it?

For the rim joist band, does it matter if it is closed cell or open cell?


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## gtown (Nov 23, 2008)

churchie said:
			
		

> I think there is a good building science website referenced in some posts here (maybe early this year).  I have Icynene in one section   of basement but I wouldn't use it near a moisture prone area.  I certainly think the sills and between joists is okay, nearer the dirt floor hmmm I don't think so.  Again, do a search for building science.



When I was searching the forum for foam spray before my first post, I tried to connect to the "building science" website via the posted links, but was unable to.



> By the way, did any of the contractors quote closed cell that is fire rated . . don't know if there are any code considerations in your neck of the woods



I thought that they all had to be fire retardent...


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## d.n.f. (Nov 24, 2008)

BJN644 said:
			
		

> The soy based stuff I had installed (Heatlok Soy) had an R value of 6.5 per inch, if you were quoted R9 they must be using something different or putting it on thin. I have never heard of the other stuff you mentioned and I was also told to stay away from open cell (sponge) foam.



There is a guy who does soy based spray foam out my way.  Are you happy with it?  I can't find much on long term comparos soy vs regular foam?

Everything I have read is that you want closed cell btw.  It doesn't break down like open cell.


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## sgcsalsero (Nov 24, 2008)

gtown said:
			
		

> churchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



See http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-103-understanding-basements, I think there are downloadable .pdfs for free.  Also there is a good book called 'Insulate and Weatherize' by Tauton Press.

I don't think all foam is fire rated, I merely mention as a code consideration (jic say you sell house and someone and the home inspector has a snit), see also below copied from tiger foam.  By the way I have Icynene in my basement, I'm not advocating one product over another.
Tiger Foam® quick curing, disposable, two-component spray polyurethane foam insulation kits are manufactured to ASTM E-84 Specifications and classified as a fire-rated foam insulation. This product is manufactured using the most environmentally friendly blowing agents and fire-retardant chemicals available today and DOES NOT contain CFCs, VOCs, Formaldehyde or PENTA-BDEs. We are the ONLY supplier offering E-84 Fire Rating STANDARD in our surface spray product line. We believe safety is not optional.


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## stephenmoore (Dec 13, 2008)

Hey Gtown, what did you end up doing with your spray foam ? I have a 1950's home that I gutted last year and re insulated with Icenyne. The reults were truly impressive. The air barrier is really something. I am a carpenter and on other jobs have since used the "blue" spray foam, (closed cell, 3-M product I think). Up my way people are pricing the two nearly the same. I would totally recomend the closed cell if it's affordable. We have sprayed it over a gravel base and then poured a concrete slab on top. The stuff is totally bomb proof. 
I used to live in a 120 year old house with a 4'  dirt floor basement. This is my experience, no matter how much insulation you put in, you need to get a small amount of heat in the space to keep the floor above from freezing you out. 
Let me know how you make out. Also for the money, gluing rigid foam on your foundation works just as well, remember an air barrier below grade where there is no exterior air movement is more of a luxury than necessity.


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## quinn (Dec 14, 2008)

I have Icynene in two buildings and all you would have to do to solve your problem is to spray on the moist side a vapor barrier paint just as they do on the joist ends spaces.  This would be a cheap and effective way to get the air seal, high R value and moisture barrier.


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## sgcsalsero (Dec 16, 2008)

2jotultom said:
			
		

> I have Icynene in two buildings and all you would have to do to solve your problem is to spray on the moist side a vapor barrier paint just as they do on the joist ends spaces.  This would be a cheap and effective way to get the air seal, high R value and moisture barrier.



What did you pay per board foot? (12" x 12" x 1")  

here's decent guidance on using icynene along with vapor barrier, perhaps a call to local building inspector for your particular situation would be a decent idea http://www.icynene.com/vapor-barriers/


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## coolidge (Dec 16, 2008)

If your floors are above grade the you will need a closed cell foam. Open cell will suck up water like a kitchen sink sponge, thus creating mold at some point. 2" closed cell foam (R-6-7 depending on brand) will give you a vapor barrier. For best results shoot 2" in floor joist and skim the walls. Dont forget the poly for the dirt floor.


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## gtown (Dec 17, 2008)

stephenmoore said:
			
		

> Hey Gtown, what did you end up doing with your spray foam ? I have a 1950's home that I gutted last year and re insulated with Icenyne. The reults were truly impressive. The air barrier is really something. I am a carpenter and on other jobs have since used the "blue" spray foam, (closed cell, 3-M product I think). Up my way people are pricing the two nearly the same. I would totally recomend the closed cell if it's affordable. We have sprayed it over a gravel base and then poured a concrete slab on top. The stuff is totally bomb proof.
> I used to live in a 120 year old house with a 4'  dirt floor basement. This is my experience, no matter how much insulation you put in, you need to get a small amount of heat in the space to keep the floor above from freezing you out.
> Let me know how you make out. Also for the money, gluing rigid foam on your foundation works just as well, remember an air barrier below grade where there is no exterior air movement is more of a luxury than necessity.



I'm going with the closed cell - it's getting done on Friday - really looking forward to it.  Now if I can find someone on the North Shore MA to install the pipe thru the roof, that would be excellent.  Would try myself, not sure if I can guarantee no leaks...

Will let you know how it turns out.  Tomorrow night laying out new 6mil black plastic.  They will skim coat walls to plastic too.


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## Hankovitch (Dec 18, 2008)

Hello, 
Hankovitch here. Been a visitor at "Hearth" for some time, saw this thread, and felt compelled to make a lengthy contribution.
Whenever any possibility of the presence of moisture - use closed cell foam.
Personally I prefer non-soy-based foam. Non-soy-based foam will have zero nutritional value to any living organism, from bacteria and molds to rodents....thus, my choice. If your GREEN(er??) foam insulation is eaten by rodents or metabolized by microbes then your insulation is gone, you use more fossil fuels to heat your space, and you are no longer "Green"!

By the way, if you use closed cell foam you may eliminate the use of any plastic. Don't pay for it, don't pay for its installation. It will NOT be needed. For compelling information confirming this (don't just take my word for it), see the Canadian Article below.

Below is information on spraying foam on concrete, outside, above grade to 2 feet below grade. A 2.5 year study in Canada.
I include a link to the entire article. Pretty compelling information, extremely well done study, great science.

This is lengthy, but hopefully helpful..................

Link to the Canadian Article about functionality and integrity of SPF applied directly to concrete above and below grade to outside of a building...

http://www.cufca.ca/research/Basement Insulation Report -IR820-English.pdf
NOTE:   The above link does not 'work'..... here is an EDIT to the original email, with a workable path to the article.
1. Plug the following into your browser (I used GOOGLE) 
nrc-cnrc eibs in-situ 
2. Look for the following, and “click” on it. 
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat 
This report summarises the findings of the project “In-situ Performance. Evaluation of Exterior Insulation Basement System (EIBS) - Spray Polyurethane ... 

In my extensive research on using SPF as the outermost part of the building envelope I have seen where they measure the actuall R-value of the BUILDING after it is all up and running. It is a simple experiment and calculation - monitor temp inside the building and outside the building over some predetermined length of time (say 24 hours), and determine how many btu of energy (btu per min X total min furnace burned per the 24 hours) were required during that time ( 24 hours) to maintain the measured inside/outside temperature differential. Plug numbers into an equation and out pops "R-value" of the structure. 

Interestingly, R-values for the entire structure are determined to be between 60 and 80! The reasons are....

(a) since the building is surrounded by a closed cell foam, the entire building stays at the inside temp set by the thermostat, and the entire building thus functions as a huge heat sink. Pretty aswsome....and 

(b) the self-flashing nature of the SPF means that there are NO holes in the skin you put on the building, NO air leaks. ALL the holes you put in the roof and siding are sprayed with foam AFTER you are done with the siding, vents, windows, doors installation. Think about it, after you put on your excellent Tyvek product which is supposed to function as your vapor barrier you then put on your siding and your trim - after you put up your vapor barrier you punch several thousand holes in it! - where is the 'wisdom' here?! (Wow, I sure rambles on, didn't I?

As with the information demonstrating the integrity and functionality of the SPF applied to a building above and below grade and the published article from Canada...(link above), I will see if I can find the link to any of the reports which describe this (admittedly unbelievable at first blush) astronomical R-value.

I did find one link regarding insulating by spraying on the outside of a concrete building...., Here is an excerpt from the article, and then link to the entire article. 

***************************************************************************

Thermal Diffusivity and Heat Sinks 

It should be noted that when the urethane is used on the exterior of a heat sink, such as concrete, the actual effective R-value is approximately doubled. This is why with the Monolithic Dome, we are able to calculate effective R-values in excess of 60. A heat sink is any substance capable of storing large amounts of heat. Most commonly we think of concrete, brick, water, adobe and earth as heat sink materials used in building. The property of a heat sink to act as an insulation is called thermal diffusivity. 

The simple explanation for the way it works is: As the temperature of the atmosphere cycles from cold to hot to cold to hot the heat sink absorbs or gives up heat. But because the heat sink can absorb so much heat it never catches up with the full range of the cycle. Therefore, the temperature of the heat sink tends to average. Large heat sinks will average over many days, weeks or even months. 

An example is the adobe hacienda with its 2 to 6 foot thick walls. By the time the adobe walls begin to absorb the daytime heat it is night time and the same heat then escapes into the cooler night. Therefore the temperature would average. Because the mass of the adobe is so large the temperature averages over periods of months. Adobe acts as an insulation even though adobe has a minimal “R” value. 

You can see from the graph that urethane thicknesses beyond four or five inches is practically immaterial. We use three inches for most of our construction. Two inches will do a very superior job. We have insulated many metal buildings with one inch of urethane and the drop in heat loss is absolutely dramatic. Obviously the first quarter inch takes care of the wind blowing through the cracks. (It usually takes an inch to be sure the cracks are all filled.) The balance of the inch adds the thermal protection. 

http://www.bestsprayfoam.com/R_Value_myth.htm

Finally...........please communicate with me if you have experience with Sprayed Polyurethane Foam applied to the outside of a building, then covered with an elastomeric paint ---- this then functions as a combination insulation/roofing/siding/water barrier/vapor barrier.  We plan to do this with our Barn-to-Home conversion.
I'd like to hear from you, as a reply here to share with all, and/or personally at the below email.

Sincerely,

Hankovitch
hdaum@tds.net


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## Hankovitch (Dec 18, 2008)

Trying again to get the complete, working link to that article on study done in Canada.....SPF above and below grade, on concrete foundation.

http://www.cufca.ca/research/Basement Insulation Report -IR820-English.pdf

Sincerely,

Hank


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## d.n.f. (Dec 18, 2008)

Have heard some rumours that a lot of this spray foam will be made illegal due to isocyanides or something.  Soy-foam is not part of the ban.

Could be a vicious rumour from the soy industry.


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## Hankovitch (Dec 18, 2008)

Hello Nelson, 
I think the spray foam ban is apocryphal / urban legend.  Yes, some 'foams' did have foamaldehyde in them. They were banned and have not been used for a few decades now. There are no "cyanates" in poly"urethane". Polymerization is complete in seconds, and the foam may be walked on in 120 seconds. There is a wealth of information on how safe Closed-cell Polyurethane is.
And now for a way to get to that Canadian article.
1. Plug the following into your browser (I used GOOGLE) 
                nrc-cnrc eibs in-situ
2. Look for the following, and "click" on it.
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
This report summarises the findings of the project “In-situ Performance. Evaluation of Exterior Insulation Basement System (EIBS) - Spray Polyurethane ...

Sincerely,

Hank


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## d.n.f. (Dec 18, 2008)

Just talked to two spray foam guys (one soy based and one not).  Both mentioned it.  Just passing the rumour along.  They both said it was in the US not Canada.  No idea where they got their information from.


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## gtown (Dec 19, 2008)

Hank,

We are having closed cell spray foam sprayed on the underside of the floor joists (in the crawlspace) in three crawlspaces.  In addition, they are doing the rim joist in the full height concrete floor basement where the utilities are.  Two of the crawlspaces are a dirt floor.  There currently is plastic over the floor but it looks 4mil and used and abused, the other one is the 22" (5cm) crawlspace height with no plastic.  The owner of the company who came to the house, said I should replace that with 6mil plastic and have it overlap the walls and he would scim-coat the concrete walls down to this plastic on the floor.  There is no plastic between the foam and the underside of the floor joist acting as a vapor barrier.

Is this the right thing to do?

I'll try to read the article, but I need to finish clean/organize the basement as prep for the job...

Thanks,

Bob


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## d.n.f. (Dec 19, 2008)

Only going to say that six mill is the way to go.  4 is too wimpy.  You can walk on 6mm.


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## Hankovitch (Dec 19, 2008)

Hello Bob,
You wrote.............Hank, 
We are having closed cell spray foam sprayed on the underside of the floor joists (in the crawlspace) in three crawlspaces.  In addition, they are doing the rim joist in the full height concrete floor basement where the utilities are.  Two of the crawlspaces are a dirt floor.  There currently is plastic over the floor but it looks 4mil and used and abused, the other one is the 22” (5cm) crawlspace height with no plastic.  The owner of the company who came to the house, said I should replace that with 6mil plastic and have it overlap the walls and he would scim-coat the concrete walls down to this plastic on the floor.  There is no plastic between the foam and the underside of the floor joist acting as a vapor barrier. 
Is this the right thing to do? 
I’ll try to read the article, but I need to finish clean/organize the basement as prep for the job… 
Thanks, 
Bob 

Great idea, SPF on underside of the floor in the crawlspace(s), and the rim joist.
Are they spraying the rim joist on the outside or inside?  Either way would be fine I can imagine.  If outside the way I envision it they will srpay the underside of floor in the crawlspaces and continue the spraying to cover the rim joist....this would be very wise.

It may be a good idea to cover that dirt with plastic.  I imagine they put the plastic there to minimize movement of the moisture from the ground coming up as water vapor, and that vapor condensing on the underside of the floor.  Wise. If they spray the entire underside of your floor with closed cell foam this will GREATLY (emphasis intended) minimize water-caused rot of your porch.  I imagine they will not spray everything under there, so the addition of new, thicker plastic to cover the dirt will be a good idea.
I might opt for simply having the Spray Guys continue spraying foam on the concrete walls (presumably down from the rim joist?) when they do the underside of the floor and the rim joist.  This would be an excellent use of the foam and would help keep that full height basement insulated. I'm thinking that while skim coating with cement to hold the plastic in place is a good idea, it would be labor-intensive, and if you put the plastic down before they spray the foam, the foam will make the plastic adhere to the concrete at least as well as skim coating and be a far better use of labor. It will take the Spray Guys another 10 minutes to do this spraying, whereas skim coating could take far longer and be messier.

Regarding 'no plastic between the foam and the underside of the floor joist acting as a vapor barrier'......you won't need it. Closed cell foam is its own water AND vapor barrier - period.

No real need to read the entire article, print it out and look at the pictures, and read the 'punch line' (conclusion) at the end of the article.  It will convince you that you will be forever happy with your decision to use the SPF.

Please let me know how it goes........I am quite interested.

Sincerely,

Hankovitch


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## lobsta1 (Dec 20, 2008)

I was under the impression that all these foam products must be covered with some kind of protective barrier. Could someone correct me if I am wrong? My house is also
on the Ma. NS. House was built in 1874 & I would love to get the porous fieldstone walls sprayed.
Al


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## G-rott (Dec 20, 2008)

I stumbled onto this discussion  too late to be of much help.  I am a certified installer for a manufacturer that provides bot materials.  Much hype and "salesmanship??" are associated with these products.  

I have installed both materials(all three actually, I tested a soy based product), 1.8-2lb closed cell, and 1/2 lb open cell foams.  In the majority of cases the open cell product is the best value, while the closed cell has uses where open cell would be less effective and/or detrimental.  

One note on the use of closed cell especially for those of you where money is no object and you want to install the "best" (read most expensive) product.  Closed cell foam is a vapor barrier...moisture will not travel through it.  It can trap moisture that enters the structure and not allow the building to dry in a traditional manner.  

An example is rain getting into a wooden roof deck, under the shingles and building paper due to a damaged flashing or roof damage.  This moisture can rot the framing and sheathing materials without showing any leakage below, and not failing until major damage is done.  The same can happen with condensation on pipes in the living space and small leaks in plumbing joints.

These are not faults of the product, however they are consequences of it's use. 

Good luck with your project. I will answer any questions I can.  

Garett


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## Hankovitch (Dec 22, 2008)

Hello Al and Garett,

First to Al.  I will share what information I have regarding your statement, "all these foam products must be covered with some kind of protective barrier"....
I will be applying Closed-Cell, 2-3 lb/cubic foot density, SPF (Sprayed Polyurethane Foam) as a roof. This must be covered by first a primer, then with an elastomeric (flexible) paint.  Ultraviolet (UV) light will damage and ultimately destroy the SPF.  To the best of my knowledge any SPF material is subject to this UV damage.  This of course means that if the SPF is sprayed inside, and if you will cover the SPF with drywall or some other covering (excludsing the sun's rays), then this will constitute being 'covered with some kind of protective barrier(to UV light)'....
By the way, I know precious little about the soy-based product. Interestingly I did find out one very positive thing about the product which I did not know a few days ago when I posted something to this thread.....I see from one site that the soy-based product also has 'no nutritive value' to rodents or microbes, so the soy-based foam shares this good characteristic with the standard SPFs).
Perhaps Garett can share more information, comparing and contrasting open-cell, closed-cell, soy-based, etc..........foams.

Garett, you make an excellent point about the consequence (not fault) of SPFs.......repeated here.........thanks for sharing....
"One note on the use of closed cell especially for those of you where money is no object and you want to install the “best” (read most expensive) product.  Closed cell foam is a vapor barrier...moisture will not travel through it.  It can trap moisture that enters the structure and not allow the building to dry in a traditional manner.  An example is rain getting into a wooden roof deck, under the shingles and building paper due to a damaged flashing or roof damage.  This moisture can rot the framing and sheathing materials without showing any leakage below, and not failing until major damage is done.  The same can happen with condensation on pipes in the living space and small leaks in plumbing joints.  These are not faults of the product, however they are consequences of it’s use."
This stresses the importance of roof inspections (flashing areas particularly), and replacing your roofing material as it NEARS the end of its expected life, not AFTER the end of its expected life.

Garett, have you ever used high (2-3 lb) density SPF as a roof (covered by primer, then elastomeric paint)?
Do you (or anyone out there) know of someone who does this, know of someome who has had this done.....and who would be willing to communicate with me?

Thanks in advance.

Sincerely,

Hankovitch in Southwestern Wisconsin.


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## coolidge (Dec 22, 2008)

Hankovitch,    SPF has been used in the application you suggested, with excellent results. I have not seen any applications like this but have heard about and read some articles. SPF is used in alot of roofing applications on flat roof as a way to reduce energy, get a longer lasting roof system then conventional roofs. A website for you to check out and ask some questions. WWW.sprayfoam.com.   As for covering SPF, you are correct about the primer and elastomeric coating but if used in a crawl space, attic, basement, by law SPF must be covered by either a fifteen minute thermal or ignition barrier, depending on where you are using it.


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## Hankovitch (Dec 22, 2008)

Hello,

Thank you for the information regarding code-required 15 minute thermal barrier/covering on SPF in crawl space, attic, basement - that is VERY useful information. One certainly wants to do things according to the law, particularly to ensure that insurance will pay for things in the event of a fire!
I appreciate your informaiton.
I've visited the web site you mention, and will now go back to re-visit and post some queries, do some searches, etc.
Thanks for the reply, for the useful information, and for the recommendation to go to the sprayfoam web site.

Sincerely,

Hankovitch in SW Wisconsin


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## G-rott (Dec 22, 2008)

Hankovitch,

I have not used spf as a roofing material, it is most commonly done in the south and has very good results.  

As far as contrasting Open and Closed cell the only difference is the density and the cell structure.  Closed cell foam is a foam produced when the "blowing agent" is trapped in the small bubbles that expand the plastic foam.  This gas is slower to transfer heat energy giving the foam a higher R value per inch(6-7), also using more plastic material giving the foam its higher density( 1.5 - 2lb per board foot).

Open cell foam is produced with a blowing agent that expands more and ruptures the cell wall, letting the gas and heat produced to escape, as the gas escapes it is replaced with air and the cells collapse slightly mostly closing the rupture.  The large cells filled with air do a good job of slowing heat transfer (r 3.2 - 4) and sealing against air movement.  This is accomplished using 1/2 to 1/4 the plastic base material ( 1/2 to 1 lb per board foot) 

When installing SPF you are paying for the component parts, the more insulating value you can create with a given amount of product the more cost effective the project.  

As a rule of thumb the 1/2 lb foam is a little better value as the cost is less per R produced.  

Garett


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## Hankovitch (Dec 22, 2008)

Hello Garett,
Thank you for the information.
I visited the www.sprayfoam.com website and played through the entire Webinar titled “Longer Life at a Lower Cost” - A Thorough Spray Foam (SPF) Roofing Education.  Great information.

I understand your cost/benefit analysis - certainly applies to inside spraying.

As the SPF we will use will be not only our insulation but also our 'siding' and our 'roof', it only makes sense to use closed cell at 3 lb/cubic foot density.  
Interestingly, it may well be possible to put in all our windows and doors without any flashing, allowing the SPF to do the flashing.........still checking to be sure this will work and is wise. I will see if I can post this question on the www.sprayfoam.com website and let you know when I get an answer. 
The SPF will function as our building envelope, roof, insulation, and siding. 
It will be - three inches of SPF on the roof, at the two ends, and down the sides, to ~2 feet below grade, primed, and sprayed with an elastomeric paint as UV protectant.  
This should function as:
(a) our roof, 
(b) our 'siding', and
(c) our insulation, as well as,
(d) obviate the need of purchasing and installing Tyvek house wrap, 
(e) elimate the need to purchase and install an interior (plastic) vapor barrier, and finally 
(f) save the expense of purchasing and installing flashing for about 8 doors and 70 windows.  
If the SPF + primer + paint will do (a) through (f), then at $3 to $5 per square foot it could be a bargain!

I also love the well-documented evidence that spraying the foam on the outside of a building actually increases the effective/measured R-value - several studies state that the effective (measured) R-value of closed-cell SPF is doubled if the foam is sprayed on the outside of a structure.  I believe something to that effect was stated in the Webinar.

All 4 now.

Hankovitch in SW Wisconsin


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## Hankovitch (Feb 12, 2010)

Hello again all.......
Hankovitch here to report on what we've done so far on our Barn-to-Home conversion project. We decided to "go" with the 3" of Close Cell Polyurethane Foam on the outside of our barn....from 3' below grade all the way up to the peak of the barn, and back down the other side once again to 3' below grade. A monolithic application of 3" thick foam on the barn, outside, covered with a polyurea paint as final coat to protect from UV light and the weather. Essentially as they re-did the Superdome roof after Katrina destroyed the EPDM roofing. We are doing this in stages, and I report here the current state of the project and what I will call the results.
We have dug out around the foundation of the 36' x 104' barn, 4 feet down…..pressure-washed the dirt from the foundation/footing……then applied 3" of SPF to the foundation (down 3' below grade), and applied 3" of SPF up the 8' high, 12" thick concrete wall of the milking parlor and up another foot……then sprayed a polyurea paint over the foam…..drain tile was put in around the foundation and runs to one of our ditches 300 feet from the barn……then we back-filled where they dug out around the foundation………then we also applied 2" of SPF inside the barn, to the milking parlor ceiling (underside of hay mow floor)………..we put 14 new windows, 3 new doors, and a new 7'x9' garage door in each end..………
In this 3,500 sq foot area (the former milking parlor) the only source of heat is passively from mother earth…down 4 feet the temp of the earth is approximately 50 degrees F…..
Bottom line on how well the insulation is working.
Since Jan 1, 2010 outside temp has ranged from +39 F to -14 F.
During that same time period the inside temp of the former milking parlor has ranged from +33 F to +37F.
The important thing to note is that, even though the outside temp dropped to 14 below zero, the inside temp always stayed above freezing….on some days inside the milking parlor has been as much as 47 degrees warmer than outside!
Note, this is with PASSIVE geothermal heating…..we do not have a heat pump, there is NO source of 'heat' for the barn other than what mother earth supplies by heat passively (and continually) coming up through the concrete slab of the milking parlor floor!
Furthermore, there is no 'earth berm' of the barn, the entire milking parlor is above ground.
Pretty awesome, I'd say…..

And, it will only get better as we…
- put on storm doors (for the three doors we put in), 
- complete the back-filling (in some places the back-fill is over a foot low), and 
- close off the openings of the two stairways with something better-insulating than the 3/4 OSB we now have covering the openings.

By the way, I'd love to hear how things went for the fellow who started this thread. What do you have to report?!

Sincerely,

Hankovitch in SW Wisconsin.


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## gtown (Mar 5, 2010)

Sorry for the delay in posting.  We went with the closed cell foam and we are very happy with it.  The foyer floor does not feel as cool to the bare foot in the winter time.  During installation, the stuff had a really strong ammonia smell to it, understand why there's not a diy kit.  Used 6 or 7 mil plastic on the floors and the skim coated them to the cement walls as they did the joists.  Not sure if that will make a difference, but it's done.  

There is one thing that's happened since and I'm not sure if it's related or not.  The bathroom double pane double hung window had the top outer pane crack - the whole pane.  Almost looks like it was hit with something.  But the screen on the outside shows no wear or damage.  The outer wall around the window is brick or brick-faced.  It's almost like the window frame tweaked forcing the glass to crack.  The inner pane is fine and the two panes on the lower section of the double hung are ok as well.  I wondered if the sprayfoam on the floor and rim joist around that section created a rigidity (if that's a word) that when the change in weather - got really cold - the frame because or the brick and now the floor did not have the play it once had.  I could be way off and not trying to create any FUD around closed cell spray foam, I was just seeing what was different.  There's no evidence of a BB or rock.  The screen is intact, so it I don't think a snowball hit it.

The pellet stove install went fine and we love it.  Last year we only fired it up when we were home.  It took a while for the room to warm, but it was great.  This year, we've turned the stove down at night to a lower temp and turned the fan to a lower speed and when we wake up in the morning, we just crank it back up and it's warm in no time.  We like it so much, we are giving it some serious thought about putting an insert in the fireplace in the living room...


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