# Can a pellet stove legally be the primary source of heat?



## bnther44 (Feb 5, 2015)

Looking to break ground on a new home and am finalizing what I want for heat. What I want is a Harman P43 - which comes with auto-ignite and a thermostat. The HVAC guys that I'm talking to for my back-up heating (mini-splits) are telling me that a pellet stove can not be used as a primary heat source.  Can anyone comment on this?

Location is western Mich.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 5, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> Looking to break ground on a new home and am finalizing what I want for heat. What I want is a Harman P43 - which comes with auto-ignite and a thermostat. The HVAC guys that I'm talking to for my back-up heating (mini-splits) are telling me that a pellet stove can not be used as a primary heat source.  Can anyone comment on this?
> 
> Location is western Mich.



It isn't a legal issue.

Think mortgage/insurance and you will be a lot closer to the issue.


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## TimfromMA (Feb 5, 2015)

If you want pellet heat for your primary heat source look into a pellet boiler or furnace.


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## Bioburner (Feb 5, 2015)

Someone stated on another thread about the units need to be hands off for a week or more, but that was to qualify for energy credits or some other tax smoke screen


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## HP52NOVA (Feb 5, 2015)

I don't know about the legal aspect, but I would not recommend it.    Pellet stoves are designed first and foremost as space heaters.   Yes, you hear about many people that heat whole homes with them, but that does not mean they are designed to do it.    Heating a whole house from one corner on one floor with no duct system requires a very open house plan, depends greatly on size, insulation, etc. and you will still get cold spots on that floor.   Multi level heating is even more complicated as the heat needs a way to get up there.    if you truly want to go Pellet only, then you should look at some of these whole house Pellet furnaces, as a solution.   if your getting a stove or an insert, I would get it as supplementary heat.    it can be a "heavy supplementary", but not primary.   

on another note - what happens if Pellet prices go sky rocket tomorrow?   that can happen.  then you will find yourself locked into one type of fuel with no options.   So, I would install a primary system - geo thermal & Solar if I could afford it, natural gas if I have it and electric if no other options.   then, supplement with the stove.


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## mchasal (Feb 5, 2015)

Do the mini splits have electric strips or some other way to handle low temps? Could they be considered your primary heat source even though you intend to use the pellet stove for all of your heat?

Regardless of what you plan to do day to day, I do think there needs to be some sort of heat source that will keep things safe if you're gone for a week in the winter, which is beyond the unattended runtime of most (all?) pellet stoves. Even though my oil boiler has been shut off all winter, it's still there and I can bring it up if I have to leave (or maybe tonight, brrrr)

As others have said, a pellet boiler/furnace can fill this role in the proper configuration, but a stove really needs something.


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## Bassmantweed (Feb 5, 2015)

HP52NOVA said:


> I don't know about the legal aspect, but I would not recommend it.    Pellet stoves are designed first and foremost as space heaters.   Yes, you hear about many people that heat whole homes with them, but that does not mean they are designed to do it.    Heating a whole house from one corner on one floor with no duct system requires a very open house plan, depends greatly on size, insulation, etc. and you will still get cold spots on that floor.   Multi level heating is even more complicated as the heat needs a way to get up there.    if you truly want to go Pellet only, then you should look at some of these whole house Pellet furnaces, as a solution.   if your getting a stove or an insert, I would get it as supplementary heat.    it can be a "heavy supplementary", but not primary.
> 
> on another note - what happens if Pellet prices go sky rocket tomorrow?   that can happen.  then you will find yourself locked into one type of fuel with no options.   So, I would install a primary system - geo thermal & Solar if I could afford it, natural gas if I have it and electric if no other options.   then, supplement with the stove.




Not sure i agree with this 100%.   in theory any furnace is a space heater just some are designed to be hooked up to a distribution source.  

If you are building a home and have the opportunity to plan for the distribution - i would think the pellet stove would work just fine.


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## roadking88 (Feb 5, 2015)

i just went through this with my insurance and they said it cannot be primary source of heat..what their complaint was, if i leave for a week there will be no heat because no one will be here to feed the stove..good thing i have oil back up..lol


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## HP52NOVA (Feb 5, 2015)

Bassmantweed said:


> Not sure i agree with this 100%.   in theory any furnace is a space heater just some are designed to be hooked up to a distribution source.
> 
> If you are building a home and have the opportunity to plan for the distribution - i would think the pellet stove would work just fine.


I didn't see anything about adding distribution from the OP.  the P43 is designed as a space heater (and on the small side).    if we are talking distribution, etc.  then why get a P43?   get a proper pellet furnace.   A pellet furnace with a large capacity will allow you to operate it for longer time, even when you are away for a week...


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## danimal1968 (Feb 5, 2015)

roadking88 said:


> i just went through this with my insurance and they said it cannot be primary source of heat..what their complaint was, if i leave for a week there will be no heat because no one will be here to feed the stove..good thing i have oil back up..lol



If you think about it, pipes freezing and bursting when the owner is not home can lead to major damages and restoration costs, including mold remediation.  That's why they want a primary heat source that will operate indefinitely with the owner not present.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

If you're going to have a ductless Mini-split heat pump system, THAT'S your primary heat source!  Then you can add your Quadrafire pellet stove anywhere you want for supplemental heat.
To call a mini-split a back up is crazy since they are available in 4 ton or more capacity and can heat down to 5 degrees.


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## pageyjim (Feb 5, 2015)

Make minisplit heatpumps your primary heat and the pellet stove your backup heat and run whatever you want. Mitsubishi would probably be your best option in that case since  they can heat to very low ambient temps. If you have natural gas I would recommend a gas furnace as primary heat. Never hurts to have a dual fuel syatem, which is a heat pump and a furnace together. You will never be without heat in that case. Heat with heatpump on moderate days and furnace on colder days and run the pellet stove whenever you want instead. Most efficient way to heat probably. Even if you only have propane it wouldn't hurt to have dual fuel or just a propane furnace for emergencies. It is quite common in the "north country" or way upstate NY to have woodstoves or pellet stoves as primary heatsource. I found that some insurance companies would not cover but others would.


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## bogieb (Feb 5, 2015)

The town property card, and my insurance call my pellet stoves back up heat. My "primary" heating source is Propane FHW according to them. I've used 4 tons of pellets and zero propane for heating this season (ok, I did use a few gallons while away for 4 days at Christmas). I don't give to rats *zzes what they call my main heating appliance - they can call it my refrigerator for all I care.

Probably the only way it affects you is that you have to make sure your "primary heating system" (heat pump) is large enough to handle the area of the house in order to get the appropriate permits and insurance.


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## bnther44 (Feb 5, 2015)

bogieb said:


> The town property card, and my insurance call my pellet stoves back up heat. .... I don't give to rats *zzes what they call my main heating appliance - they can call it my refrigerator for all I care.



Thanks for the response.
I'm thinking that this might be the best route for me.  It's just frustrating as I was planning on having a mini-split as a 'back-up';  meaning a smaller unit that would just keep things from freezing, not bringing 1000' of living space up to 70 deg. It's a hard to argument to budget (putting 2 heating systems in) - not for the long term, but for the initial build cost.


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## pageyjim (Feb 5, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> Thanks for the response.
> I'm thinking that this might be the best route for me.  It's just frustrating as I was planning on having a mini-split as a 'back-up';  meaning a smaller unit that would just keep things from freezing, not bringing 1000' of living space up to 70 deg. It's a hard to argument to budget (putting 2 heating systems in) - not for the long term, but for the initial build cost.




 It will run best and most efficiently if it is properly sized. If it is undersized it will dehumidify but not cool.


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## Rut13 (Feb 5, 2015)

I do appraisal work and have run across this same issue multiple times, I am speaking specifically to the Re-Fi/real estate sales end of things. The bank looks to appraisers as the 'eyes' on the property. If it is typical for an area to have a pellet appliance as a 'primary' source of heat, the appraiser SHOULD state that and should not be a problem. The bank of course is the final say in everything though. You could make the argument if you run out of fuel oil or propane while you're away you're in the same boat as the pellet stove.


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## bnther44 (Feb 5, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> It will run best and most efficiently if it is properly sized. If it is undersized it will dehumidify but not cool.



And that's the whole rub! I've gotten more quality info off of forums - like this one - than I have from the two different installers I've contacted for quotes. How do I know what size of mini-splits are going to work for my situation? I just read an article about a guy who heated his entire house with a single 18,000btu mini-split.  I would tend to think that his situation is an exception to the rule - but how do I know what I need? I grew up on wood heat, so I've got some perspective on what to expect with a Harman. I have NO experience with mini-splits, consequently, I really don't know how to argue when a salesmen pushes for $16K on a mini-split system.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> And that's the whole rub! I've gotten more quality info off of forums - like this one - than I have from the two different installers I've contacted for quotes. How do I know what size of mini-splits are going to work for my situation? I just read an article about a guy who heated his entire house with a single 18,000btu mini-split.  I would tend to think that his situation is an exception to the rule - but how do I know what I need? I grew up on wood heat, so I've got some perspective on what to expect with a Harman. I have NO experience with mini-splits, consequently, I really don't know how to argue when a salesmen pushes for $16K on a mini-split system.


You need to go on-line and price some mini-split systems and see, first how easy they are to install since there's no ductwork, and secondly, how inexpensive they are.  Then you'll realize that the guy quoting you 16K for a BACK-UP is looking to send his daughter to Harvard on you.  

http://www.comfortup.com/gree-multi...xth6-Q-ONOD5zVNZG57GWYwA_gLTyc9Du6RoCk4bw_wcB

This is a 2 ton GREE 3 zone system for less than 2K.  Get away from that guy!  You could put two of these in, run which ever zones you wanted at what ever temp you wanted and save one heck of a lot more than you'll ever hope to save with a pellet stove.  Now there ARE bigger units, more efficient units, and ones that work at lower temps.  They cost more but still nowhere near what this guy is quoting, especially on new construction where he doesn't have to worry about working around existing closed walls.


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## pageyjim (Feb 5, 2015)

You need a manual J load calculation done. This will be a free service by a reputable company. Since the home isn't built they will need the specs and it should be easy for them. Manual J is the most respected and best recognized, there are others. If they are using this it will tell you a lot about them imo. If they are shooting from their hip and using rule of thumb I would keep on looking. Get 2-3 quotes and compare apples to apples. These can be very efficient units. They don't last as long as conventional, ducted systems. They are becoming more and more common but a lot of companies will install them and shake their heads servicing them. So call Mitsubishi and Fujitsu for companies they recommend. These would be the two I would personally recommend. 16K for a 1000sg ft home seems very steep imo.


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## pageyjim (Feb 5, 2015)

They are relatively easy to install. Buying online in my experience means you will not get a warranty, regardless of what they say. Many offbrands do not give tech support and even experienced techs have problems servicing minisplits. These are not meant to be diy like pellet stoves are. But like I said I'm sure you can do better with price.


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## bags (Feb 5, 2015)

$16,000 buys a lot of heating devices. You do need to do some serious research. Mini splits are almost nothing to install. They are about like doing a horizontal thru the wall direct vent on a pellet stove. Minimal work and effort. Minimal materials.

You will need to find a reputable company that is licensed being in your situation. This joker you are dealing with's license is not worth $13K to $14 for a mini split. Even with two at 4 grand his installations and license does not add up to $10 to $12K.

Get on the band wagon and call every swinging __ck you can. Someone will be way more fair. I just talked to my HVAC guy not long ago about a mini split for one area of my house and he quoted me $2,550 for the whole shebang! (Quoting a Mitsubishi) Granted I do throw him work and use him on my jobs but he makes his money too and is fair. $16K is so far out of line I am speechless. Other than calling BS. Guess these guys are slow or looking to hit a home run.

What I have seen some pay for a pellet stove (simple) install has been ridiculous too. Tradesmen need to make their money and get paid for what they do but some have some highly inflated numbers on the calculators if they think they can pull it off.

Note: Many supply houses and stuff will not sell HVAC equpment to anyone other than a licensed professional. The OP needs to find an ethical one.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> They are relatively easy to install. Buying online in my experience means you will not get a warranty, regardless of what they say. Many offbrands do not give tech support and even experienced techs have problems servicing minisplits. These are not meant to be diy like pellet stoves are. But like I said I'm sure you can do better with price.


I didn't mean to imply that he should install it himself from an on-line source but just to show him how far off that $16,000 quote was if you just consider what the unit costs.  
What I like about them is the efficiency, no loss in ductwork, easier installation, and being able to control separately in each room/area.


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## bnther44 (Feb 5, 2015)

bags said:


> Note: Many supply houses and stuff will not sell HVAC equpment to anyone other than a licensed professional. The OP needs to find an ethical one.



I'm completely alright with paying a little extra for experience and a warranty. These guys need to eat and I need to stay warm. But finding an 'ethical' expert is starting to feel like high stakes gambling. Hence the instinct to fall back on something I know - wood heat.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> They are relatively easy to install. Buying online in my experience means you will not get a warranty, regardless of what they say. Many offbrands do not give tech support and even experienced techs have problems servicing minisplits. These are not meant to be diy like pellet stoves are. But like I said I'm sure you can do better with price.


Judging from the posts on here this year, I QUESTION the DYI assumption for pellet stoves too!


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> I'm completely alright with paying a little extra for experience and a warranty. These guys need to eat and I need to stay warm. But finding an 'ethical' expert is starting to feel like high stakes gambling. Hence the instinct to fall back on something I know - wood heat.


Don't give up that easily.  Just find someone who will show you SEPARATELY the cost of materials and labor.  You need a primary heat source and with a small, well insulated house, these mini-splits will do the job.


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## pageyjim (Feb 5, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> I didn't mean to imply that he should install it himself from an on-line source but just to show him how far off that $16,000 quote was if you just consider what the unit costs.
> What I like about them is the efficiency, no loss in ductwork, easier installation, and being able to control separately in each room/area.



I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply anything either. I just wanted to explain some other things about them. They are great units especially in certain applications. But he definitely can do better than 16K and get a quality install done. I just want to see him get the best deal that he can be happy with for the short and long term.


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## bags (Feb 5, 2015)

I am also like TJ not suggesting you do this as a DIY project and being new construction you will need someone licensed without question. We are just saying the estimates you are getting are a little steep. At least I think so and I am a design build contractor so I am fairly in tune with going rates and I don't think Kalamazoo would be a whole lot different. Farther north east I can see crazier high numbers.

I'll put it this way. I bought a place 3 years ago and had a new high efficiency natural gas forced air system put in with some additional duct work. AC included along with a mini split out in a big covered porch I turned into a living space great room sort of room. The mini split covered that with heating and air and I did a separate system there because it was not feasible to pick up with the new central system due to location and duct work.

All of this had a price tag of $10,300.00 new units, labor, and materials. I know many HVAC companies usually come in between $9K to $15K for a new system and duct work. A mini split or two does not equate to this price range. There have to be some companies that will do more for less is what I am saying. Have you tried looking up local HVAC supply houses and then gone and asked for some good guys numbers? You can't just grab a phone book these days to get a good and fair price. Unless you want to pay Roto Rooter prices. Places like that will surly butt diddle you and stick  the root in well.

Look around high and low and you will have to put in time and effort but it will pay off well in the end. There has to be more HVAC guys than the couple you've gotten happy prices from. Go to neighboring areas and counties. Ask at work if anyone's spouse does HVAC work. You have to do your own networking.


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> If you're going to have a ductless Mini-split heat pump system, THAT'S your primary heat source!  Then you can add your Quadrafire pellet stove anywhere you want for supplemental heat.
> To call a mini-split a back up is crazy since they are available in 4 ton or more capacity and can heat down to 5 degrees.


Quad doesn't make a P43. Just saying


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply anything either. I just wanted to explain some other things about them. They are great units especially in certain applications. But he definitely can do better than 16K and get a quality install done. I just want to see him get the best deal that he can be happy with for the short and long term.


I am having two mini splits put in this spring for duel heating zones totall cost is under $4000,strongly recommend shopping around.everthing was sized up by a hvac representative and a reputable dealer in my area. Oh and this pricing is for a 2000sqf home


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

Big papa said:


> Quad doesn't make a P43. Just saying


I wondered who would pick up on that one, papa.    Somehow I knew it would be the guy who wished he had a keystoker.


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> I wondered who would pick up on that one, papa.    Somehow I knew it would be the guy who wished he had a keystoker.


Right now it's 75 in the house "wife got to t-stat again and I've used about $400 worth of pellets so far this winter. I'm pretty happy with the harman so far. You should have gotten on my case before I bought it.


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## Bassmantweed (Feb 5, 2015)

HP52NOVA said:


> I didn't see anything about adding distribution from the OP.  the P43 is designed as a space heater (and on the small side).    if we are talking distribution, etc.  then why get a P43?   get a proper pellet furnace.   A pellet furnace with a large capacity will allow you to operate it for longer time, even when you are away for a week...



Agree if it is a primary.  Just pointing out the fact that with planning pellet stoves don't have to be space heaters. 

I am in the process of thinking about building a 2nd home with a pellet stove as the main heating source WHILE WE ARE THERE.  Of course we will need something to use to keep pipes from freezing while we are not there.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

Big papa said:


> Right now it's 75 in the house "wife got to t-stat again and I've used about $400 worth of pellets so far this winter. I'm pretty happy with the harman so far. You should have gotten on my case before I bought it.


hahaha.  Yea, I should have!  $400 would have bought you over 2 tons of coal, which would almost last the winter.  When that Harman rusts through in a year or two, you know what to do now.


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> hahaha.  Yea, I should have!  $400 would have bought you over 2 tons of coal, which would almost last the winter.  When that Harman rusts through in a year or two, you know what to do now.


Lol that's still a heak of a savings over last year,got my pellets for $188 a ton in the spring so not that much more over coal. Oh and harmans don't rust it's a "super"stove.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 5, 2015)

Big papa said:


> Lol that's still a heak of a savings over last year,got my pellets for $188 a ton in the spring so not that much more over coal. Oh and harmans don't rust it's a "super"stove.


Wow, that's a deal on the pellets!  Did you wear a mask when you held them up?  
Even at the same price as coal, you're still short about 50% in Btus.


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> Wow, that's a deal on the pellets!  Did you wear a mask when you held them up?
> Even at the same price as coal, you're still short about 50% in Btus.


It's too late to look back now I'm saving money and warmer than I was.


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## bnther44 (Feb 5, 2015)

Big papa said:


> I am having two mini splits put in this spring for duel heating zones totall cost is under $4000,strongly recommend shopping around.everthing was sized up by a hvac representative and a reputable dealer in my area. Oh and this pricing is for a 2000sqf home



Those were the numbers I was looking at! 
The models I requested quotes on were;
A) Mitsubishi Mr Slim 9000 btu single-head SEER 26 for $1600
B) Mitsubishi Mr Slim 30,000 btu single-head SEER 16 for $2600

And pricing for both of those came off of Amazon. Where the $16,000 comes from, when components are only $4200, I have NO idea!


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## bnther44 (Feb 5, 2015)

bags said:


> Have you tried looking up local HVAC supply houses and then gone and asked for some good guys numbers?



That's an excellent idea!


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> Wow, that's a deal on the pellets!  Did you wear a mask when you held them up?
> Even at the same price as coal, you're still short about 50% in Btus.


In the spring I get them strait from the manufacturer they sell them cheap in May and June.if I would have wait till August to get them they would have been $230 a ton,and on up from there.


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> Those were the numbers I was looking at!
> The models I requested quotes on were;
> A) Mitsubishi Mr Slim 9000 btu single-head SEER 26 for $1600
> B) Mitsubishi Mr Slim 30,000 btu single-head SEER 16 for $2600
> ...


That is an installed price quote for me, if I was you I would dig into the situation find out what is involved and find out why they are charging you that much. From what they described to me it was a very simple install.


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## Snowy Rivers (Feb 5, 2015)

Install a heat pump system that is large enough to handle the AC needs.

If you are not worried about it, don't install the heat strips.

The mortgage co will likely not go for the lack of central heat.

If you bank roll it out of pocket, you can tell them to take a hike.

You want an air handler and minimum AC equipment.

With the Air handler in and a modest heat pump, they will leave you alone.

Plan your layout to allow more than one stove.

We have 3 on one level 2300 plus ft

Have one medium to large and one small one.

This assures you of at least some heat if one quits.


We alternate from little to big as the temp outside gets colder, then run both, and then the third one when it gets damned cold.

Don't make the mistake of putting all your eggs in one basket.


Snowy


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## pageyjim (Feb 5, 2015)

Snowy Rivers said:


> Install a heat pump system that is large enough to handle the AC needs.
> 
> If you are not worried about it, don't install the heat strips.
> 
> ...



Heat strips are shipped with the unit unless you live in CA or FLA anyway. You need the heat strips for defrost cycle in any event. You can have it wired or set up so they only come on as emergency heat if you like.


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## Snowy Rivers (Feb 5, 2015)

We had  failure today on our little one and had to shut it down.

There was no issue at all, we just started the large one and then tore the little one apart.

As it turned out I was able to fix the issue in about 4 hours and all is well.

This took a trip to town for some high temp silicone as my tube was empty. (plus some shopping while we were there)

Had this been in the middle of the night with snow going sideways, and only one stove it would have been damned ugly.

We have the Whitfield Prodigy2 , a Whitfield Advantage 2T and a Quadrafire 1000

The Whits handle the main load and the Quad stands by just in case.

Real nice not to be stuck if it all lands at your feet    PLOP


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## pageyjim (Feb 5, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> Those were the numbers I was looking at!
> The models I requested quotes on were;
> A) Mitsubishi Mr Slim 9000 btu single-head SEER 26 for $1600
> B) Mitsubishi Mr Slim 30,000 btu single-head SEER 16 for $2600
> ...



39K btu in cooling is going to be oversized for 1000 sq'. I believe you said 1000 sq ft living space. If that is the case as it seems you would be paying more for equipment, more wear and tear by short cycling and will have a hard time keeping humidity down. Even if you don't use the company that does a proper heat loss calc you can use that as a guide.


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## Big papa (Feb 5, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> 39K btu in cooling is going to be oversized for 1000 sq'. I believe you said 1000 sq ft living space. If that is the case as it seems you would be paying more for equipment, more wear and tear by short cycling and will have a hard time keeping humidity down. Even if you don't use the company that does a proper heat loss calc you can use that as a guide.


I'm guessing a 2ton unit with proper air flow would do it for 1000sqft?


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## bags (Feb 5, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> I wondered who would pick up on that one, papa.    Somehow I knew it would be the guy who wished he had a keystoker.



I saw that subliminal message too but let it slide. Nice! I had enough to ramble about on the $16K.


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## bnther44 (Feb 5, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> 39K btu in cooling is going to be oversized for 1000 sq'. I believe you said 1000 sq ft living space. If that is the case as it seems you would be paying more for equipment, more wear and tear by short cycling and will have a hard time keeping humidity down. Even if you don't use the company that does a proper heat loss calc you can use that as a guide.



I need to clarify what I meant by the 1000 sq'

According to the HVAC guy, the pellet stove would not count - for final house inspection - because it's not applicable for primary heat. The house is single-story open-floor layout that measure 1625 sq'.  The master bedroom would get the 9000 btu unit, and I would put electric baseboard units in the 2nd and 3rd bedrooms (to satisfy the inspector). This leaves roughly 1000 sq' of living, dining, kitchen ect. I _refuse_ to put electric baseboards in this part of the house because A) I have no intentions of ever using them and B) I see it as nothing more than a complete waste of $$  

Hence the question of whether or not a wood pellet stove can legally be a primary source of heat.

I've attached the floor plans to clarify.


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## bags (Feb 6, 2015)

Nice open plan so moving heat should not be much of an issue on the main floor. What about heating and cooling the basement? This changes it up a bit. 1,625 and a full basement is not a small place. I'll look the plans over again but need to hit the rack here tonight. The plans will help many others here for input also. You might be better with one nice central system and adding a pellet stove. With a set up like that, which is what I have, you can also help distribute and circulate the warm air from a pellet stove thru a forced air system. Any natural gas there?

I am spent and tired but I will look at this a little more in depth. I think people here were thinking you were wanting to heat 1,100 SQ FT total. I kind of did anyway. A pellet stove will heat the main floor without much trouble if you get the right set up. I will tell you electric heat sucks in my opinion. I have it and a Carrier system. Heat pumps are only so good until temps drop. I knew this and when I did mine I also incorporated a Woodmaster OWB. It uses a bunch of wood! Now is the time for you to figure things out. Is the house framed and under roof yet? Not sure exactly where you are in the process? Foundation poured or are you breaking ground after winter?

Never mind I went back and saw your 1st post. Time to get the ducks in a row though!

All said and done this place is 3,250 SQ FT. That is a game changer.


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## bnther44 (Feb 6, 2015)

bags said:


> All said and done this place is 3,250 SQ FT. That is a game changer.



The drawings are actually misleading. The 4th room shown in the basement is actually optional - in other words if I should ever have the $$.  There are no immediate plans to do anything to the basement other than put doors on the mechanical room. So for the moment, I'm just focusing on the main floor.


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## Wildo (Feb 6, 2015)

What counts as primary heat depends on your loan if you have one, or on your insurance company's level of anal retention.  Our mortgage wouldn't count our LP Monitor or our K1 Monitor even if though they could run until the tanks were empty as primary heat, yet my cousin's LP Rinnai counted for his loan through the same USDA loan service.  We installed electric bb to get by that one and the insurance company didn't care a bit one way or another.  Electric bb is cheap and nobody says you ever have to use it.  We do love the forced air ones in the bathrooms to heat the tile while in the shower.

16k for a heat pump is a rip off of the grandest order. You should be able to get two big ones for that and still pocket 6-8k installed.

If you can afford it go with sprayfoam for insulation it is amazing and the payback is quick in a cold environment, if heating fuel prices don't go way down.  We are having a mild winter here(-26f coldest so far) and have just hit the 2 cord mark and 10 g. of K1 heating about 2200sq ft compared to 4 cord and 60 g last year without sprayfoam last winter at the same time.

Whatever you do just remember a little overkill never hurt anyone ayuh.


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## Wildo (Feb 6, 2015)

Unless the overkill is what you paid.


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## bags (Feb 6, 2015)

You still in an essence have 3,250 SQ FT of interior space including the basement regardless of whether you frame that room in or not. Heat it or not. You will have plumbing and pipes down there so some temperature will have to be maintained all said and done.Most newer basements can maintain above freezing temps because they are sub grade anyway but look into the future and the grand scheme.

I know what you are doing and the basement can always be finished later but it will likely happen eventually and if not by you it needs to be a viable option for resale and a possibility for another buyer. I've done quite a few houses and messed with a lot of real estate and rentals myself so I tend to think of things in these terms.

It is common for basements to remain unfinished to cut initial costs. There will be a bath room rough in for plumbing down there and I see your laundry is scheduled to live sub grade. I know and fully understand what you are trying to do but you need to cover your bases is what I am getting at. Overall it is better and less expensive to address everything now. That is what can be done to heat the place on the cheap and what is the best move for the overall outcome. I see where a septic line goes out so it's likely the site is in the country and NG, water, and city sewer are not an option so that answered some questions. Correct me if I am wrong. 

This limits you to oil, propane, electric, pellet, wood, or coal for heat. Geothermal too but heading the direction you are going that is likely off the radar due to it being even more expensive initially. Myself and others here need all of the details of what you are dealing with, decisions up to this point and reasons why, etc; so we have a better understanding and can guide you as well as possible. Pellet stoves are not our only forte' here. Many with vast experience and you have an entire team of free consultants. Doesn't get much better than that even if you pay thru the nose for it. Use it wisely. I was thinking of some very modest little bungalow at first and you were only trying to heat 1,100 or 1,000 SQ FT and now we are looking at a 3,250 SQ FT basically two level home here. It can be dealt with too but we need the entire scenario.

Going mini splits you would also need one for the basement (possibly 2) along with the upstairs units. You could be into 4 mini's right there and then a pellet stove or two. One up and on down possibly to really do things correctly and be happy and cozy. You need to price out and weigh all possible options. Now I am weighing towards one central system and a pellet stove or two for ease and simplicity. You definitely want the most even heat possible all the way around. How ticked off is the better half going to be when one room is warm and she freezes elsewhere in the shiny new house? Just trying to help you out here.

Are you going with ICF's for the foundation or an 8" poured wall. I see both on the drawings. Typical 2 x 4 framing and insulation on the exterior walls. Have you checked into the spray foam insulation as mentioned above? Yes, It costs more up front but the return on investment is grand. Priceless over time. You have a lot to figure out here and doing the smart things up front although some other sacrifices and or budget tweeking might occur it will be something you will not regret. I do this stuff for a living and have for many years. I'm going to tell you things you do not want to hear but I will be looking out for your best interest. Is this your first home or last home? Have no idea but I would guess one or the other.

***Side note: Where that door in the front off of the kitchen is going in the future make sure the structure is framed that way in the beginning with a header above and why note go with a 36" door instead of a 2'-4" door which is 34." You gain two inches which is nice and it is more of a standard size.

Are you general contracting this yourself or do you have a builder that will be doing so?


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## Coal Ivy (Feb 6, 2015)

Regarding "legal."
I built my house around a wood stove.  Code said, "must be one wall controlled thermostat source of heat."

Another example of way to much government in our lives.

So I put in a handful of baseboard electric radiators (about 80 bucks each) and attached one to a wall thermostat (120V unit).

We've used the electric only a handful of times in a decade.

Gotta check your local laws regarding what is required.

Regarding insurance and bank, yeah, they have skin in the game, so they have a say.  The argument that, "what happens if you are not home for a bit and the pellets run out?" is fairly unsophisticated and more of a reaction to an unconventional fuel source than to the reality, which is that every heating system needs maintenance and attention, and can fail, and will fail without that attention.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 6, 2015)

I, like bags and the others, was completely taken aback by the plans.  It's sure not the bungalow I expected! As for an 'open' plan, I don't see it.  Those bedrooms and baths won't benefit from a 'space heater' pellet stove.  If it were me, I would still look at mini-splits, each with multiple indoor units that are controlled individually.  It's kind of like zoning used to be.  Just adjust each living area to the temp you want.  As someone else said, you can still put in the very inexpensive baseboard electric for those extremely cold days.  The Mitsu unit I was looking at on their site last night was good down to zero for 100% rated heat output.  I'd install one large mini-split feeding the biggest indoor unit for the open area, one smaller indoor unit for the MB and one small one for the master bath.  Then a second smaller mini-split feeding a small indoor unit for each bedroom and a very small one for the bath.  Keep in mind that all these indoor units do not have to be running or set at the same temperature.  Every one comes with its own remote control.  You only heat/cool what you are using.  Some models even sense when you've been out of the room and set back the temp until you walk back in.

The cellulose insulation, if it's what my friend has, works great.  It is put into the walls as a moist paste and stays there.  He used 6" thick walls with staggered 2x4's, one at inside wall and next one on outside wall.  This eliminates any heat transfer via wood.  His electric bill is almost nil.


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## pageyjim (Feb 6, 2015)

Wildo said:


> What counts as primary heat depends on your loan if you have one, or on your insurance company's level of anal retention.  Our mortgage wouldn't count our LP Monitor or our K1 Monitor even if though they could run until the tanks were empty as primary heat, yet my cousin's LP Rinnai counted for his loan through the same USDA loan service.  We installed electric bb to get by that one and the insurance company didn't care a bit one way or another.  Electric bb is cheap and nobody says you ever have to use it.  We do love the forced air ones in the bathrooms to heat the tile while in the shower.
> 
> 16k for a heat pump is a rip off of the grandest order. You should be able to get two big ones for that and still pocket 6-8k installed.
> 
> ...



I had the same problem with Monitor's. Some insurance co's wouldn't insure, just had to do a little shopping. In the end no problem. I suppose inspections might complicate things in some areas.


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## mchasal (Feb 6, 2015)

Coal Ivy said:


> The argument that, "what happens if you are not home for a bit and the pellets run out?" is fairly unsophisticated and more of a reaction to an unconventional fuel source than to the reality, which is that every heating system needs maintenance and attention, and can fail, and will fail without that attention.



But in the case of a typical pellet stove (not referring to boilers/furnaces here) I know for a fact that if I leave it unattended, the stove will shut off within 24 hours or so due to lack of fuel.  Of course the actual number of hours will vary depending on hopper size and temperature, but a sole heat source that will never make it through a weekend of cold weather without attention isn't very practical for most people. Having to fuel it daily is quite a bit different than the "maintenance and attention" that a central heating appliance needs. 
To me, it doesn't seem unsophisticated to have some sort of a plan for this, just wise.


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## bags (Feb 6, 2015)

There are definitely ways to play the game like Coal Ivy said. I have and I will continue. That said an argument could be made that the home owner can be in the same bad case scenario if they are out of town in winter and the grid goes down for days. No central electric heat there keeping the pipes from freezing. I agree that is less likely than a pellet stove or alternative heat source failing but it is possible.

All of these requirements vary so much even within a given locale and much relies on someones attitude and opinion about THEIR decision which YOU have to live with. The OP just needs to figure out his angles and proceed from there. That said it is not always about beating them either. He wants the right set up he will be happy with. That is what works for him and will squeak thru all of the red tape, hoops, and horse chit. Codes, laws and regulations are put into place for peoples safety and well being but I agree they don't have a place in my home per se making sure I have covers pulled up on a cold night.

IMO things have crossed the line in many ways there.

The OP has a lot to hash out here and sometimes what you have to do and want to do are different. Some creativity and slight bending of the rules, or shall I say getting another to look at things differently without rose colored glasses on, can go a long way.

That said, it might behove you to get to know the local building inspector. Sit down with him or her and have a chat. Run your ideas past them and listen to them. Get them to have a vested interest in what you are doing and make them part of it. Get their input. It's also a free service since you will be pulling permits anyway.

Hopefully you have a good one or cool one. I was one for a few years back when. I will say there are some useless ones too that only read black and white and know little about the real world of construction. If you have one like that keep your distance, kill them with kindness, and blow some they are the king or queen smoke up their ass. Just make them feel like they are better than they are. Usually inspectors out in the country are much easier to deal with than the guys in larger offices. No bribes or silly stuff but pump them up a bit and be pleasant towards them. Goes a loooong way. No butt kissing needed. This can also help with unseen issues throughout the process.


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## bnther44 (Feb 6, 2015)

bags said:


> Correct me if I am wrong.



Nope, you nailed it : )



bags said:


> This limits you to oil, propane, electric, pellet, wood, or coal for heat. Geothermal too...



We initially considered geothermal, but the feedback I got from people in my area was not as good as I expected. Even the salesman admitted that his electric costs - for electric assist on a through system - was $160 for the month of Jan. Mini-splits can get similar performance at significantly lower costs - without the 6 gallons a minute.

With regards to heating the basement, we've never had a basement with heat in it, ie; we don't know what we're missing...yet. Honestly, the biggest hold up on the basement is I just don't know what I want to do yet. I saw a really neat high thermal mass system - this consisted of a solar hot water heater and a REALLY big insulated water tank. In a nut shell, the home owner heated the water in the summer and used it in the winter (radiant flooring). Obviously, that's a big project and will take a lot of research, but then again we'll be out of cash shortly which will give me time.



bags said:


> How ticked off is the better half going to be when one room is warm and she freezes elsewhere in the shiny new house?



That is a very real fear to me.   That being said, I'm not sure how much of a variation the room temps are going to be. Some say it will be awful, some say not so. Honestly, I'm inclined to wait and see what the house behavior really is. We do have options - including pulling hot air from the cupola and ducting it to the master or 2nd bedroom.  But I want to establish what my needs are going to be first.



bags said:


> Are you going with ICF's for the foundation or an 8" poured wall.



I can't remember what the foundation is called, but it is insulated and not a poured foundation.

The walls are going to be an R-20. They'll be a hybrid wall utilizing 1" of spray in - making it air tight - with the rest cellulose. The outside of the wall will have Styrofoam SIS sheathing. 



bags said:


> Are you general contracting this yourself or do you have a builder that will be doing so?



We've got a really great builder! Couldn't be happier


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## bnther44 (Feb 6, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> I, like bags and the others, was completely taken aback by the plans.



I do apologize for that. When my wife and I look at the plans, we just see the first floor. A basement to us is just cold storage.


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## bags (Feb 6, 2015)

You are on the right track. ICF's and similar are insulated concrete forms and do have cavities for rebar and concrete. More of a poured concrete skeleton surrounded by ISO panels (flesh & skin). Great stuff but it comes with a price. A good way to go if the budget allows.


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## bnther44 (Feb 6, 2015)

bags said:


> ...and will squeak thru all of the red tape, hoops, and horse chit.



I hope that I can do better than squeak through. 

My goal, with this house has been to do nothing less than to 'fire one' at the lobbyist that have highjacked Washington.  I will use wood pellets to heat my house, even if it costs me twice as much as electricity. Yes, I care about the environment and yes I want to do things responsibly, but if I'm honest my true goal not so noble as either of those. Protesting has done nothing, writing letters has done nothing, voting has accomplished even less. I'm convinced that if I really want to see change, then I have to stop funding the lobbyist. 

Sorry about the soap box.


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## bogieb (Feb 6, 2015)

After seeing the house plans I am thinking you might want to up that from a P43 to something a bit bigger like a P61 or P68. Probably technically the 43 should be able to do it - but what something can do on paper, versus reality, is sometimes two different things. Sometimes the difference goes in your favor, sometimes it doesn't. It also gives you options if you decide the downstairs needs to be heated full time; put the big stove downstairs, then get a smaller, more decorative stove for upstairs.


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 6, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> I will use wood pellets to heat my house, even if it costs me twice as much as electricity.



That pretty well sums it up as far as actually helping the OP with options! I'm outta here.


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## bnther44 (Feb 6, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> That pretty well sums it up as far as actually helping the OP with options! I'm outta here.



It kind of sounds like I've offended you and that was not my intention.  I am *very* appreciative of the input that I have received. My father would refer to this as 'in the counsel of many there is wisdom' to which I would add, 'and the occasional over opinionated person (referring to myself).

My original question was - can a pellet stove be 'legally' considered a primary source of heat.  The answer I have taken away from all of this is 'maybe'   But this is enough of an answer to guide my heating decision.  As someone suggested, I will install enough mini-split btu's to satisfy the bank and baseboard elect if necessary. But my choice to use pellets regardless of cost comparison still stands.  It might seem like a foolish choice, but from a guy who was in the sandbox the first time, I watch the news some two decades later and can't help but wonder if the foolishness lays somewhere else.


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## moey (Feb 6, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> We initially considered geothermal, but the feedback I got from people in my area was not as good as I expected. Even the salesman admitted that his electric costs - for electric assist on a through system - was $160 for the month of Jan. Mini-splits can get similar performance at significantly lower costs - without the 6 gallons a minute.



Our Jan electricity bill for heat and hotwater with our geothermal unit was about $325 our place a bit over 3000 sq/ft at .16kw/hr in a not so insulated house. We had about 1400 HDD last month I suspect with new construction your bill would easily be under $150 a month for heat and hot water in the winter. Theres a lot of live system on this site http://www.buffalogeothermalheating.com/sample_diagram.html which include operating costs.


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## Ctcarl (Feb 6, 2015)

What if your stove breaks down.i think a second heat source is a good back up .


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## Coal Ivy (Feb 6, 2015)

mchasal said:


> . . . but a sole heat source that will never make it through a weekend of cold weather without attention isn't very practical for most people. . . .To me, it doesn't seem unsophisticated to have some sort of a plan for this, just wise.


No doubt that a heat source that requires daily attention isn't practical for most people. 
That, of course, fits exactly with my description of the desire to heat solely with a pellet stove as "unconventional."
I didn't write or suggest that using conventional heating means is unsophisticated.
What I wrote was that most people's immediate response to a pellet stove is, "you can't heat a house with that."  It's an unsophisticated comment because, plainly, you can heat a house with a pellet stove, and the real issue is that it's unconventional, not that it's impractical.

We, in fact, heated with nothing but cord wood for 7 years.  No issues whatsoever.  Of course, we got the same response right at the beginning.

"You can't have just a wood stove."
Why not?
"Because what if you're not there?"
Then somebody other than me will insert the wood.

I suppose what it comes down to for me is this:

A man should be able to heat his own house with whatever he damn well pleases, short of causing excessive pollution.

It's the rudimentary, conventional thinking that, "you must have a source of heat that can go X number of days with you not being there" that is unsophisticated.

Why can't it be my choice how often my fuel supply needs to be replenished?

Why is there a law that dictates to me that I need a thermostat? 

Why does the state care?  Which is to say, why do my persnickety neighbors care?

And so on and so forth.  Good questions to ponder.

To OP - you definitely can heat with one or more pellet stoves.  You may experiment and find that you think the house is too cold, but perhaps you can make it work.

With just a wood stove on our main level, keeping that level at about 65 most of winter, our basement would never get lower than about 45, and our upstairs would get down to about 55.  Further out from the stove would be colder, and in close would be hotter.

Why is that not okay with some people?

Beats me.


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## moey (Feb 6, 2015)

Pay cash for your house and do as you please and dont get insurance. Most towns do not have "central" heating requirements.


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## Peterfield (Feb 6, 2015)

Anyone has a right to heat the way they want, but an insurance company has just as much a right not to insure the home, or at least not pay a claim for any damage from frozen pipes.


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## bnther44 (Feb 7, 2015)

Coal Ivy said:


> To OP - you definitely can heat with one or more pellet stoves.  You may experiment and find that you think the house is too cold, but perhaps you can make it work.
> 
> With just a wood stove on our main level, keeping that level at about 65 most of winter, our basement would never get lower than about 45, and our upstairs would get down to about 55.  Further out from the stove would be colder, and in close would be hotter.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the comment. I'm hoping that with good insulation and good airflow this house will stay cozy - albeit, doing something a little different.


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## Coal Ivy (Feb 7, 2015)

moey said:


> Most towns do not have "central" heating requirements.


I'd disagree with this.
Most building codes require, directly or by implication, a theromstatically controlled central heat source.
My problem wasn't with insurance - I told them I had electric heat and a wood stove.  They were fine with that.
It was the jurisdiction doing the code inspection that didn't like the wood stove.


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## Coal Ivy (Feb 7, 2015)

Peterfield said:


> Anyone has a right to heat the way they want, but an insurance company has just as much a right not to insure the home, or at least not pay a claim for any damage from frozen pipes.


Absolutely agree with this principle.


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## moey (Feb 7, 2015)

Coal Ivy said:


> I'd disagree with this.
> Most building codes require, directly or by implication, a theromstatically controlled central heat source.
> My problem wasn't with insurance - I told them I had electric heat and a wood stove.  They were fine with that.
> It was the jurisdiction doing the code inspection that didn't like the wood stove.



Most have requirements for a central heating system if one is present.  Not the requirement of an actual central heating system. Think Amish...


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## Val (Feb 8, 2015)

bnther44 said:


> Looking to break ground on a new home and am finalizing what I want for heat. What I want is a Harman P43 - which comes with auto-ignite and a thermostat. The HVAC guys that I'm talking to for my back-up heating (mini-splits) are telling me that a pellet stove can not be used as a primary heat source.  Can anyone comment on this?
> 
> Location is western Mich.


In western New york it is not considered a legitimate "primary heat" source for homeowners insurance, because it is not central heating. Insurance wants a normal furnace and ductwork. Free standing stoves are considered "zone heaters"...this also includes B-vent and direct vent gas space heaters. One way to get around the insurance BS is maybe to think about slapping some electric baseboard heaters in. I wonder if you could consider the electric baseboard your legal heating on "paper". It sounds like the home you are building is small, like a cabin. Anyway, you should put in another space heater-heat source,  because pellet stoves need to be shut down for maintainence and also they act up- fail to ignite and dont always keep room temperatures as consistent.


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## Wildo (Feb 8, 2015)

Val said:


> In western New york it is not considered a legitimate "primary heat" source for homeowners insurance, because it is not central heating. Insurance wants a normal furnace and ductwork. Free standing stoves are considered "zone heaters"...this also includes B-vent and direct vent gas space heaters. One way to get around the insurance BS is maybe to think about slapping some electric baseboard heaters in. I wonder if you could consider the electric baseboard your legal heating on "paper". It sounds like the home you are building is small, like a cabin. Anyway, you should put in another space heater-heat source,  because pellet stoves need to be shut down for maintainence and also they act up- fail to ignite and dont always keep room temperatures as consistent.


That's what we did, $1000 dollars beat $10,000 and got us by.  If we leave in the winter for more than two days we winterize which costs $10 and an hour of time


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## tjnamtiw (Feb 8, 2015)

Val said:


> In western New york it is not considered a legitimate "primary heat" source for homeowners insurance, because it is not central heating. Insurance wants a normal furnace and ductwork. Free standing stoves are considered "zone heaters"...this also includes B-vent and direct vent gas space heaters. One way to get around the insurance BS is maybe to think about slapping some electric baseboard heaters in. I wonder if you could consider the electric baseboard your legal heating on "paper". It sounds like the home you are building is small, like a cabin. Anyway, you should put in another space heater-heat source,  because pellet stoves need to be shut down for maintainence and also they act up- fail to ignite and dont always keep room temperatures as consistent.


You need to read ALL of the posts and you'll see he isn't talking about a 1000 sq ft house but a MUCH LARGER one.


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## bnther44 (Feb 8, 2015)

Val said:


> In western New york it is not considered a legitimate "primary heat" source for homeowners insurance, because it is not central heating. Insurance wants a normal furnace and ductwork. Free standing stoves are considered "zone heaters"...this also includes B-vent and direct vent gas space heaters. One way to get around the insurance BS is maybe to think about slapping some electric baseboard heaters in. I wonder if you could consider the electric baseboard your legal heating on "paper". It sounds like the home you are building is small, like a cabin. Anyway, you should put in another space heater-heat source,  because pellet stoves need to be shut down for maintainence and also they act up- fail to ignite and dont always keep room temperatures as consistent.



It's my fault for the confusion. This is one of those deals where I started the conversation in the middle and then wondered why everyone was so confused.

The plan - at the moment (which is subject to change) - is to install 3 mini-splits as my primary heat source. These should heat and cool everything - excluding the basement. We will also install the Harman with the intention of using it exclusively when the weather drops below 45 deg. I'm anticipating some initial temp variations throughout the home which we will tweak after behavior has been established.  Baseboard elect units will be installed where necessary to satisfy the 'experts' 

Hope this clears up some of the confusion


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## pageyjim (Feb 8, 2015)

Sounds like a good plan as far as I can see. I wonder if using the fan only on one of the minisplits may help circulate the air to aid the Harman.


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## bnther44 (Feb 8, 2015)

pageyjim said:


> Sounds like a good plan as far as I can see. I wonder if using the fan only on one of the minisplits may help circulate the air to aid the Harman.



That is one thing that I've been wondering on myself.  The whole wild card in this heating thing is the cupola.  The initial idea was to open the windows on the east side of the cupola (house faces east) and open the window on the west side of the house. In that area, the wind generally travels west to east which means I would draw air across the patio concrete - kept cool from being in the shade all day -  and vent the hot air that has risen up into the cupola.  What we realized after designing the cupola is that we could essentially store some hot air from the pellet stove. This would allow us to place vents in the cupola and duct it down to the bedrooms or even the mechanical room in the basement if necessary.


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## pageyjim (Feb 8, 2015)

Well one good thing about the minisplits they are usually placed high up on the wall the fans are efficient and usually have a sweeping action with many settings. So good chance they can aid in air circulation. I don't know if this can be directed or is hit and miss. I have a feeling it will work out pretty well. Congratulations and good luck. When you're done post pics and room temps room to room lol.


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## bags (Feb 12, 2015)

Not real sure mini splits can circulate hot air the Harman would throw out simply because there isn't duct work. Box fans. Mini splits operate differently than a central heat pump system. They are not forced air systems. Think hotel room thru the wall type units. 

HVAC guys chime in. I am a contractor and no expert on HVAC. Been around it long enough to know and understand more about moving air and how it all works than most 3rd graders though.


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