# How do I do my stone veneer correctly?



## cabinner (Sep 18, 2013)

Hey all,

My hearth walls will be quite small - in a corner of 3' x 5'.. yes - basically two sheets of hardie board (1/2") in a corner. 

I want to use natural blue stone form my land... I will ask the wife to pick some nice pieces from our land (we have a lot of quite thin pieces laying around in the forest). 

Questions - 

1. do I need a scratch coat?

2. mortar or thinset? and can you recommend a brand/type? 

3. trowel type? 

4. do I wet the surface a bit before stick the stone on?

5. some online videos show masons just taking a stone, putting some mortar/thinset on it directly, and sticking it on the wall while others show how they first lay a coat with a trowel on the wall and then attach the stone to it.... which one should I go with?

Thank you so much! 

I promise photos!


----------



## Oregon aloha (Sep 19, 2013)

I'd butter both sides so you get good adhesion as the Blue stone is uneven.


----------



## begreen (Sep 19, 2013)




----------



## cabinner (Sep 20, 2013)

Watched both.... One is over plywood and the other is over concrete blocks.

I am still unsure as how I should do this... Do I need this wire mesh and scratch coat?

Thinset or mortar...? 

Trowel thickness?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 20, 2013)

You will want to hang mesh on the wall, then put a scratch coat over it. And make sure not to make it smooth like so many people seem to do, it's a scratch coat it should be rough so the stone can grab it.

I watched a lot of videos before I did mine. One company didn't use a scratch coat, instead they allowed the mortar to be squeezed in between the stone and into the mesh. This process seamed to have a great bond. I did mine that way and have had no problems.
If you stone is thick enough it could just be set like traditional masonry. Is it all gonna be thin?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 20, 2013)

My stone will range from 1/4" to 3/4" thick.... It will be random stone from my land. 

can you explain more about this 'no scratch coat' method? I would  like to do it... 

Also, I am surprised to read that everyone here are saying to avoid hardi board and to go with the old (not next gen) boards.... As far as I know - only hardie board is non combustible...


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 20, 2013)

cabinner said:


> My stone will range from 1/4" to 3/4" thick.... It will be random stone from my land.
> 
> can you explain more about this 'no scratch coat' method? I would  like to do it...
> 
> Also, I am surprised to read that everyone here are saying to avoid hardi board and to go with the old (not next gen) boards.... As far as I know - only hardie board is non combustible...


With stone that thin it should be set more like a tile would be set. Use polymer fortified thinset over backer board and you should be fine!


----------



## cabinner (Sep 20, 2013)

Excellent! Thank you! 

This trowel good - http://www.homedepot.com/p/QEP-4-1-2-in-Square-Notch-Trowel-49916Q/100177089#.UjzUaMZwuuk


----------



## rkshed (Sep 20, 2013)

Exactly as was said before.
Mesh and rough scratch. Back butter the stone.
Did my cultured stone like this and this is how we trained contractors that bought stone from us.


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 20, 2013)

I did a "wet" coat, no scratch, no dry, and also buttered the back of the stone and set in place, a little wiggling back and forth to work it in, and done. The only scratch I left was about 6 or 8" around the perimeter of the stones that were installed and scratched. Then when restarting next day, wet the scratch and wet coat , butter and set more. I used the mesh to scratch with, and used several different mason trowels and a pointing trowel to get in the crevices and scoop the slop out. I used dry stack ledgestone so no real mortar joints.
I used masons mix type S mortar. All bonded excellent and worked well.
Depends what your going over whether you need mesh or not.
Anything but bare stone, brick or concrete needs to have mesh installed first.

Trowels I used were:
1/2" tuck pointer trowel to clean the slop out & off and work in narrow places.
2" Margin trowel for various small/tight spots
10" Brick trowel top slap mortar onto the finish trowel
14" Finish trowel I used to mud the wet coat on the mesh
7" Gauging trowel to butter the backs of the stones.
I also used a 5 gallon bucket to put the trowels in when not being used to keep them wet and clean so no mud set up on them.
You'll also need a mud mixing box and a hoe if you use mortar.
Maybe a bit overkill, but I have everything I could possibly need in any situation I needed it.


----------



## jeffesonm (Sep 20, 2013)

I labored over thinset/backer board versus mesh/scratch/mortar and eventually went with the mesh.  It's been up for months and no issues.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 22, 2013)

Thanks everyone! I just got back. Took me some time to get the hang of it but like I read - the consistency of the thin-set is the key. I let it sit and remixed it to make it really "peanut butter like"... This was the first time for me doing anything like this... never tiled or used a notch trowel before. I didn't use a scratch coat or mesh.

I built an air wall to make it safer... My wife helped me find rocks from our land. Thoughts?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 22, 2013)

I used this silicon for the seams there - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000V4LTXC/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Also, I made the air intake there for my englander 17-VL... as you can see. I will connect it to the stove using this aluminum flex pipe: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BQWUJC/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

should be ok right? 

BTW - HOGWILDZ: I just placed an order for all my chimney parts. I will install it next weekend! Will post photos for your critique!


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 22, 2013)

Did you use polymer fortified thin-set?
How do you plan on mortaring all those joints?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 22, 2013)

I did. Like you recommended. 

I'll use a grout bag for the joints.. won't be fun but will work.


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 22, 2013)

cabinner said:


> I did. Like you recommended.
> 
> I'll use a grout bag for the joints.. won't be fun but will work.


Good, without the polymer the thin-set really struggles to bond to natural stone. Do yourself a big favor and try to find a grout bag that is high quality! Maybe from a masonry supply store or on-line somewhere. I used cheap ones from Menards and Lowes, the Kobalt one from Lowes was better for sure, but they were both junk. I had 2 from menards blow out in the first few minutes!


----------



## cabinner (Sep 22, 2013)

damn.... I bought one from HD from $4.... I guess it is crap. I'll check Amazon. Also - any notes on the pipe I want to use? (link is in my earlier post)


----------



## cabinner (Sep 22, 2013)

I will grab two more form HD just in case it fails on me. 

The first row I did I had to support with wood as it was all sliding off... Then I got better at making the mixture and notching. The second wall didn't take long at all


----------



## begreen (Sep 22, 2013)

That natural stone looks great.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 22, 2013)

Thanks begreen!


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 22, 2013)

begreen said:


> That natural stone looks great.


Oh ya, I meant to say that too!
Nice job, and it's so cool that it all came from your own property!


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 22, 2013)

Looks great! Lots of small stones makes for tedious work.
Do you have the 1" gap for air circulation on top & bottom of the face wall?
How long did it take to set the stone?
I don't envy you on grouting all that.
That is why I went with dry stack ledgestone. No mortar joints to do.
What size id that OAK pipe?
What stack are you going with?


----------



## CenterTree (Sep 22, 2013)

Wow, that's a lot of work.  Looks good!.   What do you have planned for the floor of the hearth?  (the pad)


----------



## cabinner (Sep 22, 2013)

Thanks for the compliments.. We invested time and energy because we will be looking at this a lot.. It's across from where our sofa will be.. 

Hogwildz - I do have it. It does have 1" thickness. I used metal furring channels to space it. Setting the stone, from the time I started until when I was finished - probably 4 hours but that includes mixing 4 batches of thinset and searching for rocks. My pipe is 5"..  What does stack mean? 

Centertree- 2" blue stone. Single piece (3' x 3')


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 23, 2013)

You did well at 4 hours. Took me about 12 per every 5 to 8sf of cultured stone to install.
By stack I mean your chimney system your ordering.
Why so large on the OAK piping?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

I am optimistic... I told my wife and she said it took us more like 6 hours.... hhh

But we did have to stop look for rocks and mix new batches of mortar... 

I ordered the M&G Duravent system. I wanted to get that flashing piece you recommended by ICC but I was told that I will then need to have my stack from ICC as well... I called a place not far from me and they wanted around $1400 before tax and I need to come pick it up. Instead, I ordered from woodstovepro.com.... $700 with tax and free shipping to my door.


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

cabinner said:


> I wanted to get that flashing piece you recommended by ICC but I was told that I will then need to have my stack from ICC


Why did you want to use an Excel flashing? Metal roof I'm guessing, I can remember.

Flashings are the one item in a chimney system that I feel can be substituted if needed. For instance, only ICC makes a flashing specifically for a metal roof, the other companies seem to just leave you hanging if you have a metal roof. Or offer a flimsy silicone boot or a surface mounted piece of junk. Neither of these options offer a permanent, sturdy installation. Just my opinion.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

Yes because of my metal roof. You think I can use ICC flashing and the rest of the stack from Duravent? 

Please let me know quickly as I will need to change my order. I do want the better roof flashing.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

This is the only place online I found that carries it... unless you know somewhere else..? 

http://www.stoves-pipes.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ICXF6EMFC


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

I would definitely go with the Excel flashing!


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

Ok. Changing my order


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

As long as clearances are met, what is the difference between one non-ventilated flashing and another? Or one ventilated to another? I have replaced lots of leaking silicone boots with this Excel flashing. It's the go to flashing for a metal roof.
PM me for step by step instruction, I've got pics somewhere I think.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

Can you look at the link I gave for the ICC and confirm that is indeed the right one - size wise and what not?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

That one is for 12/12 and greater pitches. You need 6 pitch or less right?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

Yup my roof is 4/12 then this one is the right one? - http://www.stoves-pipes.com/ICC-EXCEL-FLASHING-METAL-ROOF-1-12-7-12-6-I-D-p/icxf6emfa.htm


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

Thats it, dont forget the storm collar.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

wait... then I need it's specific storm collar as well? (from ICC?)


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

This one? http://www.stoves-pipes.com/ICC-EXCEL-FLASHING-STORM-COLLAR-STAINLESS-STEEL-p/icxmessc.htm


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

You don't have to, but the Dura-vent collar will need a little trimming on the back side. Otherwise it hits the roof before it's low enough.


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

They should have one that is galvalume like the flashing. But thats it.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

I thought they are both from stainless. That's OK though. What kind of screws do I use this with?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

1/2" hex head self-drilling Stainless


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

With that rubber gasket/washer?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

How long the screw needs be? In the Icc installation they say #8 wood screw but I'm not sure what length is that..

Is this good - http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/202102331?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051&N=5yc1v&R=202102331


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 23, 2013)

For the entire install you will need several different types and sizes of screws. 2" drywall screws for the ceiling box and 1/2"SS crews for the storm collar, I also use the 1/2" SS screws to attach the pipe to the flashing for added stability.
You will need some gasketed pole barn screws as well for the roof.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

I'll go over this tonight.. I'll read the installation  instructions. Duravent give a step by step or is it more of how do I install each piece?


----------



## Trooper (Sep 23, 2013)

Pardon the interruption, but wanted to say great job.  You have me dreaming now.  Can you post more pictures along the way until she's done?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

Thanks for the compliments 

Next weekend I will fill in the joints, install the blue stone pad, and install the chimney.... hhh. 

By the way, the quarry guy said a 3ft by 3ft by 2" thick stone will weight around 250lbs.... Seems right? I might need to slowly roll it into place with my wife... if I am not back here please look for me under a PA bluestone.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 23, 2013)

PS - how is this http://www.hechlers.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=413
over silicone for the storm collar?


----------



## Trooper (Sep 23, 2013)

cabinner said:


> I built an air wall to make it safer.


Hi cabinner...What's an air wall?  Also, why did you not go all the way up to the ceiling with the stone?  Will you put drywall above the 5 footers?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 24, 2013)

I think the right term is ventilated air space. It is basically a double wall with metal strips between which make a gap between the two sheets of cement board. The second sheet is placed a bit higher which allows cold air to come in from below, heat up, and exit from the top - making a circulation of air. This should lower the temp of the wall if I am not mistaken. 

No need to go all the way to ceiling... and I like the way this looks.


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 24, 2013)

cabinner said:


> PS - how is this http://www.hechlers.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=413
> over silicone for the storm collar?


I've never seen a product like that, maybe once in a trailer park.  
A storm collar with a bead of caulking over it is what you want.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 24, 2013)

Will do!

I've strated reading the installation yesterday. Question - if the firebox calls for a 2" clearance then how is it that I will build a wood box around it so it attaches to it...? seems like they are breaking their own rules 

Also, I am buying this part - http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/M...oping-Length-40-68-8647-6DVL-66TA-p14961.html

I believe it connect to the support box but it seems tomake sense to me to connect it to the stove (to be the first piece that connects after the adapter) because I will then adjust the height from there and also, if I want to clean the pipe - I can just slide it up... is that possible/correct?


----------



## Trooper (Sep 24, 2013)

cabinner said:


> I think the right term is ventilated air space. It is basically a double wall with metal strips between which make a gap between the two sheets of cement board. The second sheet is placed a bit higher which allows cold air to come in from below, heat up, and exit from the top - making a circulation of air. This should lower the temp of the wall if I am not mistaken.
> 
> No need to go all the way to ceiling... and I like the way this looks.


Thanks for the explanation, cabinner.  Just to clarify, I like the way it looks also;  wondering whether there was a reason other than aesthetics.


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 24, 2013)

The ceiling support box mounts at the ceiling(hence the name). It is already built that when you install it, it already gives you your 2" space from combustibles.
The telescoping goes from stove to support box, Class A goes from support box through roof to cap.

BTW, that site seems high on their pricing.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 24, 2013)

Thanks Hogwildz. They give a 20% discount and free shipping so it came out to just under $700 for everything... seems reasonable.. What'ya think?

Sorry to re-ask (I am new to this) you said "telescoping goes from stove to support box".... My ceiling height, floor to ceiling where I penetrate, is about 10ft. Minus stove height = about 7-8 ft. So that telescoping will be connect to some 'regualr" black pipe... Questions is - can I randomly pick the order of connection?

In other words - once the support box is installed - I am supposed to install from the support box down to the stove - right? Then can the last part to connect to the stove (of course the adapter is the last piece as it connect the stove to the black pip...) be the telescoping pipe? If yes - that makes my life easier.

Another question for you hogwildz - what tool will make the nicest cut on my roof for the icc flashing? I have a jigsaw, sawzall, and angle grinder.... 

Also, I should just make a nice round hole right?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 24, 2013)

You will need a grinder and a sawzall.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 24, 2013)

Thanks Webby. 

Can I fill the support box with Roxul? (any of them?) 

Also - do I need screws for connecting the chimney parts? (black pipe to black pipe - adapter, support box to pipe, and so on... )

you mentioned three screws that I need: 2" regular wood screws (I have).. Stainless self drilling 1/2" hex head - my HD doesn't have in stock. I want to get it from amazon. Are this the ones - you mentioned: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NHVOW8/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

You also said I need gasketed ones.. I have these in the cabin: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Teks-9-x...-Screws-100-Pack-21404/100188361#.UkJGxcZwuuk

Will they work?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 24, 2013)

Yes, those are the correct screws.
You will need to get locking bands for the Dura-Vent pipe, they don't come with the pipe.
The pipe will lock into the ceiling box, no screws needed.
You will need 3 screws in each section of stovepipe. Are you using single wall pipe?

I will send you some step by step pics of the flashing install.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 24, 2013)

I am using double wall. This is one of the parts I am getting - http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/M...uble-Wall-Black-Pipe-8624-6DVL-24-p14949.html

They are all M & G Dura-Vent beside the flashing and storm collar - ICC. 

What kind of screws for the pipe? Can you give a link to the locking band?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 24, 2013)

Each section of double wall comes with 1/2" Phillips screws. You will need to have some 1" SS screws to attach the stove pipe to the chimney adapter. It's also nice to have 3/4" SS screws to attach the stove top adapter to the flue collar. The double wall will have holes already in the outer wall, use an 1/8" bit to drill through the rest of the pipe and the chimney adapter. This makes a nice secure connection.
I installed one of these stoves a few months back, and the manual stated closer clearances with single wall pipe than double. We called Englander to verify.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 24, 2013)

Interesting... The manual on 17-vl shows that with the double wall you get more clearance.... 

Then can I just buy the ones from Amazon at 1" instead of 1/2" so i can use them on both those applications? 

Any link for those locking bends?

Also - in this video: 
He shows (2:30~) that he won't use screws to connect the DVL...


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 24, 2013)

He is also covered in tats and his Hearth Board is backwards.

I always forget that we have a special way of adapting the DVL to the stovetop. To the best of my knowledge, it's required to be attached with 3 screws. Those adapters typically are very sloppy. I have never seen that chimney adapter either, unless it's something new, don't expect it to look that way.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 24, 2013)

This is the adapter I bought - http://www.woodstovepro.com/store/M...ection-No-Damper-8680-W-O-6DVL-AD-p15013.html

Questions:

1. Can I just buy 1" stainless steel hex instead of the 1/2" and use them throughout? 
2. Can I fill in the support box with Roxul? (any of them?) 
3. Do I need locking bends? If I do - can you give a link to show me what kind?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 24, 2013)

I don't know of a link, they should be available anywhere that sells Dura-Vent Dura-Tech.
No, you do not want to use 1" screws anywhere on the chimney, they will go through the inner wall. To attach the flashing to the pipe you will need 1/2".
You cannot use insulation in the ceiling box. The only chimney that makes a ceiling box insulation that I am aware of is Hart&Cooley TLC.
http://www.hartandcooley.com/products/tlcsi/shielding-insulation-wrap


----------



## Ed Williams (Sep 25, 2013)

You've won- Nice job!


----------



## cabinner (Sep 25, 2013)

Just got my pipe delivered. All made it through fine except the telescoping pipe that was damaged a bit. You think I can bang it into shape or should I request a replacement?

Thanks Ed btw!


----------



## cabinner (Sep 25, 2013)

OMG my feet look awful...


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 25, 2013)

It'll work, but it's always gonna look bent. Since you don't need it right away, I'd send it back. 
By the way, did you notice the tag saying that if you bought it on the Internet there may not be a warranty?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 25, 2013)

BTW - what kind of stove pipe paint to buy? I saw that the telescoping part gets scratched... ? 

Can someone recommend a specific brand?


----------



## begreen (Sep 25, 2013)

Where did you order from? I'd return the part.


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 25, 2013)

cabinner said:


> BTW - what kind of stove pipe paint to buy? I saw that the telescoping part gets scratched... ?
> 
> Can someone recommend a specific brand?


It's painted with Stove Bright. They were making a Specific color for Dura-Vent but quit and said it's now Satin Black. Well, it's not a perfect match. Just buy a whole can and give it a quick coat.


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 25, 2013)

Send it back, you paid good money for it, should get a good pipe.
They will prolly try and jam you shipping back though since you accepted it.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 25, 2013)

Will do. I will request a replacement. 

Messed up my first burn but that is ok as we already booked a place near by just in case we don't finish in time. I will connect everything and just leave this part for next time... 

BTW - can I cut the support box? I want to cut it in an angle so it sits level... Tool for that?


----------



## webby3650 (Sep 25, 2013)

cabinner said:


> can I cut the support box? I want to cut it in an angle so it sits level... Tool for that?


Yes, it cuts good with snips. I prefer power shears though!


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 25, 2013)

Right & left tin snips are much easier to cut with then straights.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 25, 2013)

Important question.. In the englander 17-vl manual it says that if I caddy corner it I can keep it 6" from the corner to "unprotected areas".. Where do I take my measurement from? 

My wall is constructed in layers like this - natural stone, cement board, metal furring channels, cement board, steel studs (roxul between studs), and wood strips (which are on the other side of the studs of course) 

So do I take 6" from the stone or from the wood on the other side of the wall (the combustible)?


----------



## cabinner (Sep 25, 2013)

Got the snips! Thanks!


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 25, 2013)

I believe you take your measurements from the combustible surface. In your case from the nearest wood in the wall.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 26, 2013)

Thanks hogwildz! 

Can I insulate the inside of the support box with roxul?


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 26, 2013)

cabinner said:


> Thanks hogwildz!
> 
> Can I insulate the inside of the support box with roxul?


Negative on insulating the support box. 
As Webby said, there may be one manufacturer who lets you.


----------



## cabinner (Sep 27, 2013)

Hogwildz - just in case : if I have an issue and already made a hole in the roof - how should I temporary close it? I'm in home Depot right now.. Hhhh


----------



## Hogwildz (Sep 27, 2013)

Yes you can always lay a pc of metal over the hole temporarily.
Tuck the top under the shingles, enough that the top of the metal is not exposes to any water that may run down between the shingle seams.
Then just screw neoprene washer head screw one on each middle side of the temporary metal pan and a couple at the bottom to secure the temp pan.
The more shingles you can slide under the shingles, including the sides, the less screws you will need temporarily, and less holes that may need to be sealed later.
If you do it so the screw holes fall within the underside of the new roof flashing when it does get installed, the holes are not a problem at all, as they will be covered by the new flashing.


----------

