# Economical thermal storage tank



## Carl Webber (Sep 15, 2014)

I recently purchased and am installing a Tarm OT-50. This boiler is a little big for my house so i plan on having to build smaller fires and tend it often. The other option is to burn it low and worry about creating creosote. I have heard that using thermal storage it a big help with these boilers. Currently i am low on money, but for the right price i might consider getting a thermal storage tank. Can anyone suggest a place where i can get a thermal storage tank at a reasonable price. I'm looking for something under 1000 gallons as i only have a bulkhead to my basement and have to be able to fit it through a doorway. I had heard that there were places selling storage tanks in the $1000 to $2000 range, but i have not been able to find anything near that price. Can anyone offer some help please?


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 15, 2014)

Smaller propane tank or air compressor tanks. Take to fab shop and have fittings u need welded on if they don't have ones that will work for you. Do some research on here. Lots of info.


----------



## cityboy172 (Sep 15, 2014)

Anhydrous or lp tanks off of Craig's list is what I did. $1 a gallon is about normal. Of course I found tanks for $.35 after I bought mine though.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 15, 2014)

Check local large scrap yards for used propane tanks.

EDIT: And storage would absolutely improve your boiler performance. Especially if it is oversized. It would reduce wood consumption, and creosote related maintenance.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 15, 2014)

http://burlington.craigslist.org/for/4650989916.html


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 15, 2014)

I understand that i can use these, but what i don't understand is how. From what i have seen, the thermal storage tanks have a heat exchanger in them so the boiler water doesn't mix with the water in the tanks, it just warms the water in the tanks and then goes back to the boiler. Am i thinking of this wrong? When you set up thermal storage tanks for a boiler do you simply put them in a loop with the boiler so it is all the same water and heats as the boiler heats? Do you need a circulator to keep keep the water flowing from the boiler to the tanks and back again? If i were able to find 5 of these old 200 gallon propane tanks and set them up, would i set them ups as bank all connected and then put all the zone circulators after them? Can someone give me a link or post a schematic so i can better understand this.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 15, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> Can someone give me a link or post a schematic so i can better understand this.


most manufacturers have basic design and scenarios in there manuals that are online. tarm,etc


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 15, 2014)

No heat exchanger needed if you do pressurized storage. the water in the tanks is the same as what runs threw the boiler. You could also do open storage where you build a wood box put a rubber liner in it and a heat exchanger. More than one way to skin a cat. Depends on , tanks available, regulations ( you may need certified tanks for insurance if pressurized ) and what fits your needs and space. Pressurized is the way to go if possible for you. Again, do some searches and research on this site. All the info is already here at your fingertips.


----------



## birdman27 (Sep 16, 2014)

http://nh.craigslist.org/for/4670037087.html 500 gallon propane storage tank. Craigslist. NH.


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Sep 16, 2014)

birdman27 said:


> New
> http://nh.craigslist.org/for/4670037087.html 500 gallon propane storage tank. Craigslist. NH.



jump on this Carl.  Also see our plumbing schematic "Automix-Single Tank" for set up.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 16, 2014)

Chris Hoskin said:


> jump on this Carl


Check your dimensions. don't think it will fit through a standard doorway. its a good deal!


----------



## maple1 (Sep 16, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> I understand that i can use these, but what i don't understand is how. From what i have seen, the thermal storage tanks have a heat exchanger in them so the boiler water doesn't mix with the water in the tanks, it just warms the water in the tanks and then goes back to the boiler. Am i thinking of this wrong? When you set up thermal storage tanks for a boiler do you simply put them in a loop with the boiler so it is all the same water and heats as the boiler heats? Do you need a circulator to keep keep the water flowing from the boiler to the tanks and back again? If i were able to find 5 of these old 200 gallon propane tanks and set them up, would i set them ups as bank all connected and then put all the zone circulators after them? Can someone give me a link or post a schematic so i can better understand this.


 
Depends on if open unpressurized, or closed pressurized.

And that may come down to what you can fit into where you want it.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 16, 2014)

The next question i have is, how do i run the boiler when it is hooked up to storage. I have heard tons of people saying they run these old boilers once a day and run the rest of the time on the heat stored in the storage tank. My boiler specifically says not to run it as a cold start boiler because the moisture that collects on the inside of the boiler will mix with flue gasses when you start it back up and will corrode the metal. How are people doing this without destroying their boiler? I haven't seen this explained anywhere, i just see people saying they do it. From what you guys said earlier the pressurized system is the same water as what is in the boiler, so it would make sense to me that as long as the storage is hot, the boiler would be hot, even if there wasn't a fire in it. So, unless i'm missing something, it sounds to me like pressurized storage is the way to go for me since i have an old Tarm boiler.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 16, 2014)

My boiler is only burning between 6 and 10-12 hours a day in the winter. That's the way it was intended to be run, and I don't think it has special construction inside.

Realistically, the boiler won't go all that cold burning like that in the winter - bottom of my storage is usually around 120 at least when I start a burn, the boiler not a whole lot colder. And I don't think much moisture would collect on the inside of the boiler in that amount of time.

One thing I don't think was mentioned above, is that if you do add storage, you will also want to add a thermostatic return protection valve that will keep the return water above 140° (Danfoss is a common one). Very important. Having extended periods of cold return water entering the boiler when it's burning would definitely not be good.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 16, 2014)

That is some good info. I will check that out. I was just doing some calculations and i'm running into some problems that I'm sure most people have seen. My basement door behind the bulkhead is 34 inches wide so that limits the size of tank i can bring in. The height limit in the basement is roughly 7 feet because of piping and other stuff. After taking some measurements, and doing some calculations, a tank that is 34 inches wide and 7 feet tall is roughly only 40 gallons. I think i could possibly fit maybe 2 of these in my basement with everything else that is down there and the wood i need. Is it worth it to do to all the trouble for only 8 gallons of storage? Most people i have read about are talking about anywhere from 400 to 800 gallons of storage. It looks to me like i can't get anywhere near that using pressurized storage. Is 80 gallons of pressurized storage enough to make a difference in my boiler efficiency? I have a Tarm OT-50 and according to the spec sheet it holds 91 gallons of water. So, total that would be something like 170 gallons of water. That doesn't sound like enough to me but i could be wrong.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 16, 2014)

I would search for 250 gallon propane tanks. Smokeless heat has them set up on their web site vertical and stacked configurations.Ideally most with new units are running 500-1000 gallons. so if it where me I would set up as if you had a new boiler, since you most likely will replace at some point and the work will be done. IMHO

PM me and I can get you a salvage yard number.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 16, 2014)

*a tank that is 34 inches wide and 7 feet tall is roughly only 40 gallons*

I came up with something closer to 300 gallons for 36"dia x 7' tall. Doesn't take into account the cylindrical end though. I know my '330s' are 3' x 9'.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 16, 2014)

250-Gallonpropane tank 30" x 96"


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 16, 2014)

yeah, i figured that out after. My math was way off. i think instead of calculating the volume of a cylinder i was calculation the surface area. So, after figuring that out, it sounds like if i could get my hands on 2 old propane tanks i could do OK. I could try for two of the 8 foot ones, but even two of the upright ones are something like 200 gallons so together i would have 400 gallons of storage. If i'm going to turn them into storage tanks for my boiler is there anything special i need to know? should i be all set as long as they are not too rusty? Should i pressure test them to the same PSI as my boiler (72 psi)? When i add fittings do they need to be welded in any special way or can i just have someone with a welder just slap some fittings on them? Should i have one fitting at the top and one at the bottom, or both at the top or bottom? should i go with larger fittings or like 1/14 inch so the output on my boiler will match, or with smaller like 3/4 inch? Do i only need two fittings, one for in and one for out, or should i add extra ones for other things like a pressure and temp gauge?


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 16, 2014)

http://www.smokelessheat.com/thermal-storage-tanks/250-gallon-propane-tank-with-ports

FYI This is what these guys do.


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 17, 2014)

Id go with 1 1/4 " fittings on the tank. weldolets are the best option to use as fittings but,  nipples could also be welded on.  One fitting on the very top and one on at the very bottom. I would also put a spot for a thermowell near the top, bottom, and middle for temp gauges but that isn't a must have. Try to find tanks without deep pitting but some minor pitting should be okay. Yes pressure test after the welds are done. Be sure to clean the tanks out good with some bleach water. I filled mine with water to make sure where was no gas left in the tanks. shouldn't need a pressure gauge on the tanks, It will be the same pressure as the boiler.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 17, 2014)

Make sure you have a competent welder - preferably one who regularly does pressurized stuff. It's easy to stick metal together, but getting air and water tight under pressure is a bit more. Mine was done by a pro but even he had to come back & fix up a couple pinholes. That was mostly my fault for accidentally picking cast fittings out of the supply bin (supplier mixes them I guess). So also make sure to avoid cast fittings - hard to tell the difference at times. And pressure test before he leaves. Don't think 72psi is necessary, think I pumped mine to 30. And also based on that experience, I wouldn't do any more fittings than I absolutely have to. See what fittings are there already, and make the best use of them you can. I would avoid thermowells, external temp probes and strap on aquastats seem to do just as well with no leak risk.

I just pressure washed mine, but even then got very little dirt out. Maybe I got lucky with how clean they were - I don't think I had to do anything. They did stink, but I couldn't get them to light off no matter how hard I tried.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 17, 2014)

after checking things out, it appears like the best i'm going to do for storage in my basement is 3 120 gallon tanks for a total of 360 gallons of storage. I don't think i'm going to have room for any more. I could be wrong but i haven't found any tanks that are larger than 120 gallons that would fit correctly in my basement. I'm going to call a scrap yard at some point and see what they have. Maybe i'll get a surprise and find something that is exactly what i need. Assuming that i can't find anything else, is 360 gallons of storage enough to accomplish anything? If i started the storage out at 200 degrees and ran it till it was at 140 degrees that is a 60 degree drop. That would give me about 173,000 btu of storage. If i calculated right, my house at best uses about 67,000 btu an hour to stay heated in winter. That means i would need to fire the boiler about once every 3 hours to keep the house warm. Does all this sound ok? or do i really need to figure out how to get more storage to make it worth my time and effort?


----------



## maple1 (Sep 17, 2014)

We are in a 20 year old 2700 sq.ft. two storey (plus unfinished unheated basement) on an exposed windy hilltop.

My usual winter routine is make a fire on late afternoon, and burn it until I go to bed. Which amounts to about 6 hours or so of burning. On the very coldest of days, I will make the fire earlier - but no earlier than noon. And maybe throw a bit more wood in on the way to bed. So that's 10-12 hours of burning, at the very most, and that amounts to maybe only 20% of the time? Wild guess.

We have programmable thermostats, that depending on the zone set back a degree around midnight, another degree at 6am, then bump back up the two degrees at supper time. That's bedroom zones. The kitchen area setsback a couple degrees around 10pm, bumps up for a couple hours around 6am, then bumps back up late afternoon. The other zone is living room/office, and manual stat. I turn it down a bit on the way to bed, then back up when I get up. The result of doing all that, is that I'm burning when the heat demand is the most, and coasting on storage when it is the least. So you can regulate some things to jive your heat load with your burning routine.

Have you checked out open storage tanks? Tom in Maine (forum member) sells them, they are quite popular for tight spaces. Boxes you put together, then put a liner in. You would then need heat exchager(s), but expansion tanks would be less of an issue.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 17, 2014)

My big problem right now is money. Unless he sells his storage tanks for something like $500 its going to be too much for my budget. Although it is something i'm considering for the future. I've seen collapsible storage tanks that are 500 gallons that have a relatively small footprint but they are expensive. I'm short on money, but i can't really afford to heat the house on oil anymore as it is costing me $4000 a year. i'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. So, for now i'm just trying to get the system in as cheaply as i can, but do as much as i can. It makes sense to me to have storage, my big problem is money. It seems to me like the cheapest option for me is to go with the used propane tanks, as long as they will work for me and are adequate. At this point, everything i'm getting for this system is used and either through people i know or through craigslist. Once i have the system in and working and it is saving me money i can work on trying to upgrade the different parts of the system as i go. I'll check out Tom in Maine and see what he sells the tanks for just to be sure i can't do it. I would hate to assume and not at least check it out.

As it is, my house is roughly 28 years old, it is 2000 sq. ft. and two stories. I am currently running a weil mclain oil boiler that has a 100k btu net output. The boiler also provides my hot water. During the winter months I am using about $500 of oil a month. that is for about 6 months of the year. then for the other six months i use between $500-$700 for the whole six months. During the winter months its not too bad in the house, the boiler will keep the house around 70. When it gets cold out, 10 drgrees or below the boiler has a hard time keeping up. The boiler will run all the time and the thermostat will only maintain 68. The boiler i am putting in has an output of 140k btu on the wood side, so it should be able to handle my house. I'm also considering the idea that i might need more baseboard in the house.


----------



## bmblank (Sep 17, 2014)

If you're fine with unpressurized, you could go with something like a heavy duty 55 gal. drum. You just need to make up some copper coils to drop into them. You will need circulators, but Tarm has some pretty good schematics for a three way valve system for unpressurized storage.


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 18, 2014)

bmblank said:


> If you're fine with unpressurized, you could go with something like a heavy duty 55 gal. drum. You just need to make up some copper coils to drop into them. You will need circulators, but Tarm has some pretty good schematics for a three way valve system for unpressurized storage.


 
 55 gallons wouldn't be worth messing with in my opinion.  250 gallon would be the minimum I'd install, and that would be pushing it.


----------



## bmblank (Sep 18, 2014)

Multiple drums can increase capacity.


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 18, 2014)

t


bmblank said:


> Multiple drums can increase capacity.



that makes for a lot of tanks, fittings, exchangers, and harder to insulate. I'd just build a tank if i were going unpressurized.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 18, 2014)

From talking with "NE Wood Burner" i think i have found a place where i can buy tanks, i have called the guy and given him the dimensions i can work with. Hopefully he can find me 2 tanks that will work for me that are at least 200 gallons each. I'm hoping for 250.

Now for my next big question. With pressurized storage do you need an expansion tank other than the one that normally hangs above the boiler? If so, how large of an expansion tank would i need with 500 gallons of pressurized storage? Can anyone possibly explain to me how to calculate this so i will know for the future.


----------



## hobbyheater (Sep 19, 2014)

I don't know if you considered building your own soft tank? These are the plans from the Jetstream manual . It has been recommended to use stainless steel fasteners , pressure  treated lumber ,and buy your liner from Tom  http://www.americansolartechnics.com/.
Big cost of this setup , copper coils and the  liner .


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 19, 2014)

I looked at building my own unpressurized storage tank and it really seems to me like it is more cost effective to go with the pressurized storage and use old propane tanks. If i use old propane tanks. it seems like i can get them for the cost of about 50 cents per gallon. For 500 gallons of storage it will cost me $250. The rest is just labor. The welding of fittings on the tank i can do for free, no copper coils needed, from what i can tell they are really efficient. It seems to me like the old propane tank idea is the most economical for me and right now every cent counts.


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 19, 2014)

Yes you will need a bigger expansion tank for pressurized storage. You can make one, but a bladder tank seems to be better if you can afford it. If I remember right you need a tank about 11% of total volume if you make your own,so if you have 550 gallon, you need a 60 gallon tank. A bladder tank is the biggest expense of pressurized storage when using propane tanks for the storage.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 19, 2014)

woodsmaster said:


> A bladder tank is the biggest expense of pressurized storage when using propane tanks for the storage


you can find these used easy enough. Or just use another smaller tank, much discussion here about that.
Eventually you will be replacing the older boiler with a newer gasser and the correct tank set up will pay dividends when that happens.
I would run it this year with out storage and save your pennies for more storage and a new gasser.


----------



## velvetfoot (Sep 19, 2014)

I was going to use these thermal tank plans to build a pellet storage bin; still might, but am leaning towards bulk bag delivery since I already bought the stuff.
Anyway, I digress.  Here's the link:  http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/Tank/Construction.htm  I think the fellow who runs the site is also a contributor here.


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 19, 2014)

A pic of my homemade exp. tank made from a 125 propane tank. These have a built in float gauge that makes it easy to monitor the amount of water in the tank. Sorry pic is sideways, I rotated it and it still loaded sideways... ?


----------



## ElkRiverFJ (Sep 19, 2014)

woodsmaster said:


> A pic of my homemade exp. tank




LOL, I see you refuse to let go of the factory supplied Biomass fire stoker...mines not quite that bent yet.


----------



## Bob Rohr (Sep 19, 2014)

woodsmaster said:


> View attachment 138892
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice re-purpose of that tank for expansion.  Keep an eye on your pressure when you fire it up and run to 180- 190° or so.  I think you may be a tad small on that expansion size.

Using the Wessel online calc sheet, www.wessel.com, click on expansion sizer.  I plugged in 1100 gallons, water, 60- 190° temperature 12-28 psi pressure.  It shows 170 gallons for a tank like that.

Not sure what your entire system volume is?

The relief valve will start to seep as you approach discharge pressure, be sure it's discharge is piped down to the floor.  If you ever over-heat and flash to steam, the discharge from a relief valve will be quite an eye opener


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 19, 2014)

ok, since someone suggested it i have to ask the question. With an old boiler like mine that is not a gasser (Tarm-OT50), can you successfully run them without storage? Its a little late in the season, but i wasn't able to find the boiler i wanted and could afford until now. So, i'm using as much dry wood as i can, but i think i'm going to have some semi seasoned wood in the back of my pile. I have a fan and a dehumidifier running so i think it will dry quite a bit by the time i use it, but all the same it will not be perfectly dry wood. If i have storage i can run the boiler wide open and all the extra heat will go to storage. If I don't have storage, it will make the buildup of creosote much more likely. Can i really run this boiler successfully for a year or two without storage? It does have oil backup so i could always run it during the day as long as i can tend it and then throw in a few sticks before i go to bed and then let the oil kick in when that runs out and start it all over again when i get up in the morning. I'm a little new to the wood boiler thing. I only have experience with a wood stove or a fireplace, and both of those need frequent tending. My main worry is overheating the boiler or having a chimney fire from creosote. If it is possible to run this without storage, can someone give me a few pointers.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 19, 2014)

That's the way it was built to run, so yes. It's just that it would run much better if storage were added.

Just make sure it is installed right (overheat protection, adequate expansion, pressure relief, etc.) - standard boiler install stuff.

Get a thorough understanding of maintenance requirements and stay on top of them. Watch your chimney closely.

If you re-split as much wood as you have space for, and loosely stack it in the area of the boiler, and maybe also set up a box fan on low speed blowing into the bottom of the pile during teh daytime, you can dry the wood a lot more before you burn it. A small electric splitter is handy for that operation. You can rotate that wood during the winter as burning & space permits.

There are quite a few on here who have gone that route - burned without storage until they could add it later.


----------



## Bob Rohr (Sep 19, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> ok, since someone suggested it i have to ask the question. With an old boiler like mine that is not a gasser (Tarm-OT50), can you successfully run them without storage? Its a little late in the season, but i wasn't able to find the boiler i wanted and could afford until now. So, i'm using as much dry wood as i can, but i think i'm going to have some semi seasoned wood in the back of my pile. I have a fan and a dehumidifier running so i think it will dry quite a bit by the time i use it, but all the same it will not be perfectly dry wood. If i have storage i can run the boiler wide open and all the extra heat will go to storage. If I don't have storage, it will make the buildup of creosote much more likely. Can i really run this boiler successfully for a year or two without storage? It does have oil backup so i could always run it during the day as long as i can tend it and then throw in a few sticks before i go to bed and then let the oil kick in when that runs out and start it all over again when i get up in the morning. I'm a little new to the wood boiler thing. I only have experience with a wood stove or a fireplace, and both of those need frequent tending. My main worry is overheating the boiler or having a chimney fire from creosote. If it is possible to run this without storage, can someone give me a few pointers.




Sure, storage just makes the boiler more operator friendly.  It give you some non-burn energy storage, and some over-flow parking space should you over-fire.

Owner get the hang of adjusting the burn and loading to match the weather conditions and building load.  It comes down to how much time you have to "tend" the system.

I ran my EKO 40 with just an 80 gallon buffer last year, until I get my 500 gallon better insulated.  I used less wood with just the 80, compared to previous years with poorly insulated 500 gallons.  It just took more trips to the boiler room to feed the fire at the correct rate.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 19, 2014)

I'll add a bit of my 'pre-storage' experience.

That involved using a very inefficient wood/oil boiler, which compounded the issues. But when it was any kind of cold out at all, I had to tend the fire every 2 hours in the day time, stay up way later at night than I wanted to to get that last load of wood in it, get up earlier than I wanted to to get the fire going again, chase periodic coal buildup that I had to empty out to get my firebox space back (which meant dumping unburned coals that still had BTU value to them), and clean my chimney and stove pipe of creosote at least 4 times per winter (the stove pipe more frequently but easier to do).

All of that is now history. Plus I plan to never have to go up on my two storey slippery steel roof again.

I did keep us (mostly) warm during all those years, but I was seriously wearing myself down doing it.


----------



## hobbyheater (Sep 19, 2014)

I have run two none gasification boilers without storage . The biggest challenge or concern is creosote in the chimney , because the firebox walls of the boiler are surrounded by water this makes for a lower temperature burn and more creosote  when compared to a conventional stove with firebrick lined sides which give a little hotter and cleaner burn. So when your boiler goes into standby mode when there is no demand for hot water this creosote issue gets even worse . The second convention boiler when I added storage the creosote problem became a nightmare , the return water could be as low as 90 degrees .With storage boiler return water protection is needed .
If your wood is not under 20% moisture content you will have creosote issues with or without storage .Buy a cheap moisture meter its the only way to know the moisture content of what your burning.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 19, 2014)

hobbyheater said:


> If your wood is not under 20% moisture content you will have creosote issues with or without storage .Buy a cheap moisture meter its the only way to know the moisture content of what your burnin


This has been the much of the problem with many unhappy wood burners I have met and helped over the years! Admitting the issue is the first step for many.


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 19, 2014)

I've run my system for 3 years now with no problems. I have around 1100 gallons. I wouldn't go with any smaller tank than what I have though.

Edit: I usually gain 10 psi when I fire, mabey 13 if i let the temp get real low like 110 F then bring it all the way to 190 / 195. My water never gets lower than 100 F. on average. I burn year around for DHW


----------



## woodsmaster (Sep 19, 2014)

ElkRiverFJ said:


> LOL, I see you refuse to let go of the factory supplied Biomass fire stoker...mines not quite that bent yet.



LOL, I'm over due for a better one...


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 19, 2014)

Ok, thanks guys. This has helped me a lot. I really want some storage, but money doesn't really allow for it now unless i want to do it really cheap and maybe have problems later. I think i would rather just install the boiler the way it is and run it without storage for a couple years until i save enough to buy the right storage and install it properly.

I know you guys said it takes a lot of tending and staying up late and getting up early to keep things going properly. Because my boiler is a wood/oil combo, does anybody see any problem with me staying up late as i can, or getting up early as i can and taking care of the fire as much as possible, but if it happens that that is not enough, letting the oil kick in overnight sometimes? I don't mind burning a little oil just to make things more convenient for now until i get storage.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 19, 2014)

Nothing wrong with that, just that you'll have to pay for the oil.

Mine did that once in a while too - I was just too stubborn to not do all I could to avoid it. The sound of the burner kicking in was like nails on a chalk board to me. Actually, sometimes when it was real cold out, the oil and wood were burning at the same time if my wood wouldn't catch up on its own.


----------



## Bob Rohr (Sep 19, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> Ok, thanks guys. This has helped me a lot. I really want some storage, but money doesn't really allow for it now unless i want to do it really cheap and maybe have problems later. I think i would rather just install the boiler the way it is and run it without storage for a couple years until i save enough to buy the right storage and install it properly.
> 
> I know you guys said it takes a lot of tending and staying up late and getting up early to keep things going properly. Because my boiler is a wood/oil combo, does anybody see any problem with me staying up late as i can, or getting up early as i can and taking care of the fire as much as possible, but if it happens that that is not enough, letting the oil kick in overnight sometimes? I don't mind burning a little oil just to make things more convenient for now until i get storage.




It's really all weather dependent, no two systems heat, or need the same amount of tending.  As long as you are aware of the problems with idle mode of over-firing, give it a try.  I ran mine several seasons until the right tank came along.  No doubt it used some LP, but I agree wait until you have the $$ to do the storage properly.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 19, 2014)

Is your wood supply dry for this year?


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 20, 2014)

i think i just lined up some dry wood. I just talked to somebody and they said they have dry wood in crates. 1/2 cord per crate and it was cut and put in the crates just before last winter. I think that is about as good as i'm going to do. Even if it is dry i plan on having a dehumidifier and a fan running in the basement just to make sure.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 20, 2014)

either this year before snow flies or next spring i'm going to get a grapple load dropped at my house and cut and split everything myself to save money. from everything i've read people get pretty good results from putting the wood in the basement and using fans and heat and a dehumidifier to dry the wood. I figure if i split the wood next spring and put it in the basement on pallets so air can move and i have fans and a 75 pint dehumidifier running i think it should dry pretty good by the fall when i might need to start using it. I haven't quite decided yet what to do during the summer. I think because i don't have any storage and i don't want to burn all summer long, i think i'm going to use oil during the summer for my hot water.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 20, 2014)

once i get ahead of things i'm hoping to have two years worth of wood at my house. One in the basement ready for winter, and the other outside getting cut and split for the following winter. Right now things are a little rushed because i couldn't get the project started until i had the right boiler at the right price and i didn't want to invest the money in wood last spring because i didn't know if i would even have a boiler by winter and then i would have just wasted $1000 on something i couldn't use.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 20, 2014)

well sounds like you got a plan. I would ask around early to get grapple loads. Its more about timing of jobs near then just ordering a load. Not as easy as once was with the pellet and wood processing paying high prices.


----------



## velvetfoot (Sep 20, 2014)

I'd leave the wood stacked up outside for the summer.  It's not going to get dry enough anyway before the winter, they say.


----------



## Fred61 (Sep 21, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> either this year before snow flies or next spring i'm going to get a grapple load dropped at my house and cut and split everything myself to save money. from everything i've read people get pretty good results from putting the wood in the basement and using fans and heat and a dehumidifier to dry the wood. I figure if i split the wood next spring and put it in the basement on pallets so air can move and i have fans and a 75 pint dehumidifier running i think it should dry pretty good by the fall when i might need to start using it. I haven't quite decided yet what to do during the summer. I think because i don't have any storage and i don't want to burn all summer long, i think i'm going to use oil during the summer for my hot water.





velvetfoot said:


> I'd leave the wood stacked up outside for the summer.  It's not going to get dry enough anyway before the winter, they say.


Why have fans and dehumidifier do the work that mother nature can do better and for free?


----------



## JP11 (Sep 21, 2014)

Exactly.. top cover and leave it outside.  Stacked single rows.  Paying for electricity to dry the wood is a losing game.

Don't use all your 'good' wood then try to use your 'marginal' stuff.

Mix in your marginal wood when you've got a good fire going, with lots of heat load.  You are going to have a STEEP learning curve with this setup and no storage.  Watch your chimney like a hawk.  'saving' with wood then having a chimney fire is a losing game.

JP


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 22, 2014)

The only reason i was going to cut and split the wood and then bring it inside was that i didn't want to have to handle it several times. I was hoping to cut and split it and then stack it once. I have talked to people that said they were successful at putting it in the basement and letting it dry there. But of course you guys are probably experts on the matter and i know the people i talked to are not as experienced. 

I know there is going to be a big learning curve with this boiler and no storage that is why i was hoping to try to line up some storage but it looks like that won't work out because of money. My main worries are overheating or a chimney fire. Over heating will take care of itself easy enough if the boiler is set up correctly. The chimney fire is a little more worrisome, especially if it happens when we are all sleeping or away from the house. My parents have had several fires over the years with their wood stove and all they did was close everything up tight and the chimney fire went out after a few minutes. Then the next day my dad would go up on the roof and clean out the chimney. I know a boiler runs different from a wood stove and it worries me a little. I'll just have to take it slow and not be afraid to underestimate things and have the oil kick in. I would rather run a small fire and stay safe than accidentally burn my house down.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 22, 2014)

NE WOOD BURNER said:


> well sounds like you got a plan. I would ask around early to get grapple loads. Its more about timing of jobs near then just ordering a load. Not as easy as once was with the pellet and wood processing paying high prices.



I have a friend who is a logger. I have already told him when he get a job that he could give me a grapple load to give me a call. I'll keep on him about it to make sure i don't miss out. Hopefully it all works out. Worst case i have to buy semiseasoned or green wood in the spring and let it dry over the summer. Hopefully that won't happen. I can get a grapple load for about $1000, buying it processed by the cord will cost me about $2000. It would be a big waste of money for me to not pay attention and lose out. But, of course either way is much cheaper than the $4000 i am paying a year for oil.


----------



## JP11 (Sep 22, 2014)

Cheapest insurance ever.. start looking in your chimney now. Learn what it looks like.  Check it weekly.  When it needs attention.. either get someone to clean it, or learn to do it yourself.

JP


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 23, 2014)

i can clean my chimney. I have the wire brush and the extensions so i can clean it out good. My one big problem is going to be getting on my roof in the middle of winter. I know my chimney is clean now. It is actually so clean that the flu tiles are their original color. There is no buildup at all. But of course i have only been running oil. 

Does anyone have any solutions to taking care of my chimney during the winter? Is there a way that i can check the condition of my chimney without climbing on my roof and looking down it? I don't currently own an extension ladder, so the only solution i can see is climb on the roof and walk across it to the the chimney. But of course, my house is two stories and in the middle of winter it will have snow and ice on it and its quite dangerous. If that is what it takes then of course i'll do it, i just want to make sure i'm not missing something and there isn't an easier way that i'm missing.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 23, 2014)

Carl: a good flashlight and clean mirror is how I've checked mine for years. I don't go on roof to brush I send it up the bottom/cleanout early and often.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 23, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> i can clean my chimney. I have the wire brush and the extensions so i can clean it out good. My one big problem is going to be getting on my roof in the middle of winter. I know my chimney is clean now. It is actually so clean that the flu tiles are their original color. There is no buildup at all. But of course i have only been running oil.
> 
> Does anyone have any solutions to taking care of my chimney during the winter? Is there a way that i can check the condition of my chimney without climbing on my roof and looking down it? I don't currently own an extension ladder, so the only solution i can see is climb on the roof and walk across it to the the chimney. But of course, my house is two stories and in the middle of winter it will have snow and ice on it and its quite dangerous. If that is what it takes then of course i'll do it, i just want to make sure i'm not missing something and there isn't an easier way that i'm missing.


 
Depends what the bottom is like.

I spent way too many years climbing my 2 storey roof to clean my chimney. 3-4 times a year for 17 years. The last straw came when I went up there for the first time after having new steel put on. Actually it was the second time - the first time was OK since it was a warm sunny day. Second time there was the odd scattered drop of water on it from a not quite completely melted frost that I didn't notice at first - and I went for a slide. Scared the bejeebers out of me, I laid in the valley where I came to a stop for quite a while, reflecting on things. That episode came together with other stuff to make me take the plunge to a new gassifier.

I did clean mine from the bottom once in bad weather - but it was a dirty messy experience. I have a cleanout right on the bottom which helped - I can take it off & look straight up. But it was tight to get the rods up, and of course all the ash & creosote fell out the bottom where I was trying to do my thing. I think if I had to carry on with cleaning the chimney, I would almost take the plunge to calling someone who does it for a living - or, permanetly mount a couple of ladders up there. But now, I plan to never have to be up on my roof again - heading into season 3 and it's still clean and it hasn't seen a brush since I fired the gassifier up.


BTW, I got most of my buildup in my stove pipe around the barometric damper (was 'easy' to clean there), and the first few feet of the chimney. So you might be able to get by with just cleaning the pipe & one rod length of chimney to get through the winter. But you will have to watch it very closely to get a handle on creosting patterns.


----------



## lotawood (Sep 24, 2014)

I have chimney that is dangerous to get to in any weather.  High and on a steep roof.

If you can go in the bottom, like I do, I tape a black plastic leaf bag on the pipe.  It keeps most of the dust and soot in the bag.

So step one is to tape an X with duct tape near the bottom of the bag.  Cut a hole in that X so that just the rod for the brush will fit through.
Insert the tail end of the rod in the cut hole.  Without the tape reinforcement, the bag rips.  Stuff the brush in the chimney pipe a few inches.  Wrap the bag around the outside of the chimney pipe.  Tape bag to pipe. Brush away.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 24, 2014)

ok, this all sounds good, but it sounds like it is on metal chimneys. My chimney is a brick chimney and the cleanout is at the bottom in my basement about 4 inches from the floor. I don't see any way that i can get a rod up the chimney from there. I think i'm stuck climbing a ladder or climbing on my roof.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 24, 2014)

Some swear by Sooteaters, but I don't know if one would handle that situation or not.


----------



## velvetfoot (Sep 24, 2014)

Wouldn't you take the pipe out of the connection to the chimney and sweep up from there?


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 24, 2014)

Even if i tried that, how am i going to get a 6 foot handle for a chimney brush through the thimble and up the chimney? Its flexible but i know its not that flexible.


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 24, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Some swear by Sooteaters, but I don't know if one would handle that situation or not.


I've never heard of this, what is it? is it safe to use with a wood boiler?


----------



## hobbyheater (Sep 24, 2014)

Back in the dark days (early 80's) of dirty chimneys before Gasification, I tried something similar and it did nothing other than it being very expensive firewood!


----------



## maple1 (Sep 25, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> I've never heard of this, what is it? is it safe to use with a wood boiler?


 

A Sooteater is a brush on a skinny flexible rod that you run up & down while attached to a drill.

I've never even seen one, but search the site for 'sooteater'. Especially in the wood stove sections.

I seem to recall guys running it around some fairly sharp bends - like say in then straight up. But not sure.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 25, 2014)

What I had done for years was leave the ladder up on the outside chimney. I used a small pulley and dropped a cable down the chimney put brush with eye hook on both ends in cleanout cable hooked to top of brush and rope to bottom. go out side pull cable(from ground) brush goes up. go inside pull rope brush goes down. slide out thimble pipe and brush that with another worn brush and I was done.
I leave one brush in cleanout and cable in chimney all winter. every weekend brush chimney. doesn't take long.
I had to run what I had and make do. with an exterior chimney and a fisher grandpa start up would be a Bear if chimney wasn't perfect.
There was a chimney cap on the market years ago that rotated with the wind and it had a cable that would spin inside the length/height of the chimney  the cable kept the inside clean automatically.


----------



## hobbyheater (Sep 25, 2014)

maple1 said:


> A Sooteater is a brush on a skinny flexible rod that you run up & down while attached to a drill.
> 
> I've never even seen one, but search the site for 'sooteater'. Especially in the wood stove sections.
> 
> I seem to recall guys running it around some fairly sharp bends - like say in then straight up. But not sure.




Sooteater , I  thought it was something like a supercharged presto log !

But will do a google search and see if  I can find one!


----------



## velvetfoot (Sep 25, 2014)

http://www.northlineexpress.com/sooteater-rotary-chimney-cleaning-system-rch205-2256.html


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 25, 2014)

I like the cable idea. I think i'm going to have to check that out. It might be a possibility. I have a chimney cap to help with draft and keep out the rain so i think i might have to modify it for that to work but it sounds like the way to go unless i get some really flexible brush extensions. what did you use as a cable? did you just go buy 50ft of 1/8th inch braided steel cable? or is there something better to use? 

Did you just leave the cable in the chimney or did you leave the brush attached to it in the cleanout? I was thinking of leaving the brush attached to the cable and leaving it in the cleanout at the bottom of the chimney but i think if the first travel of the brush was going up the chimney i think it would spread ash and creosote all over the top of my house and chimney. I was thinking the best way would be to go up a ladder and attach the brush to the cable at the top and have the first stroke of the brush be down the chimney so everything falls to the cleanout. Does this sound right to you guys?


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 25, 2014)

The small cable I have is repurposed from an old clothes line I removed from a rental property years ago. I bet there is something out there to buy.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 25, 2014)

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt...ess-Steel-Uncoated-Wire-Rope-810050/204471267

Something like this would work. probably cheaper a Jacks in Keene or Edmunds in Antrim/Henniker not sure what is near you for Mom and pop hardware stores.


----------



## maple1 (Sep 25, 2014)

Somebody around this part of the continent used to make and sell rigs years ago that you put in top of your chimney, with a pulley on top over the hole and a small cable that ran down to the cleanout. Sounds like same setup NE is talking about or similar. Brush had hooks on each end, you pull it up then pull it down. I'm not sure on the finer details like where the side/run of the cable that didn't have the brush in it ran - but I thought it was all in the chimney. Which would make for a tight squeeze trying to get your hands on the cable to pull it, if you didn't have a bottom cleanout with some space under it.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Sep 25, 2014)

yeah, I went low tech for years top rung of ladder for top pulley and a piece of all thread @ lower cleanout.
I just realized that I've heated my place for 21 years with a $500 wood stove and 6-8 cords a year. lot of luggen wood down the basement. so nice to have heat and a way to make soup and coffee when the powers out!


----------



## Carl Webber (Sep 26, 2014)

that is one of those rare things about us back woods people. the power goes out and we can still live.


----------



## JETSTREAMER (Oct 3, 2014)

hobbyheater said:


> I don't know if you considered building your own soft tank? These are the plans from the Jetstream manual . It has been recommended to use stainless steel fasteners , pressure  treated lumber ,and buy your liner from Tom  http://www.americansolartechnics.com/.
> Big cost of this setup , copper coils and the  liner .


I built this tank and used it for 17 years.  The difficult part is installing the EDPM rubber liner.  The first liner lasted 10 years and the second one 7.  There was no way I was going to install a third so I excavated and built a concrete attachment to my basement, lined it with 4" Styrofoam, plywood and high heat resin fiberglass.  I has a 1200 gal capacity with about 1000 gallons.  Built a new heat exchanger as per the Jetstream manual and hung my 2 DHW coils.  It's been working great for 5 years.


----------



## maple1 (Oct 3, 2014)

Welcome to the forum.

That is an interesting sounding tank.

What part of the province are you in?


----------



## hobbyheater (Oct 3, 2014)

JETSTREAMER said:


> I built this tank and used it for 17 years.  The difficult part is installing the EDPM rubber liner.  The first liner lasted 10 years and the second one 7.  There was no way I was going to install a third so I excavated and built a concrete attachment to my basement, lined it with 4" Styrofoam, plywood and high heat resin fiberglass.  I has a 1200 gal capacity with about 1000 gallons.  Built a new heat exchanger as per the Jetstream manual and hung my 2 DHW coils.  It's been working great for 5 years.




Welcome to the forum! Canadian EH?
How long have you had your  Jetstream?  Which blower are you using ?

The EDPM liners were a problem.There is much better material now available , not that it will help you  this is a link to a company that sells the new ones .

http://www.americansolartechnics.com/


----------



## maple1 (Oct 3, 2014)

Ha, hobbyheater has a fellow Jetstreamer on board. Awesome.


----------



## Carl Webber (Oct 3, 2014)

I went and visited Tarm the other day and picked up a few parts i needed for my boiler. They have some nice stuff. I picked up a catalog and a price list. Some of their stuff really isn't that expensive. It looks like i could get an 80% efficient gassifier for about $6000. If i come across that kind of money that should pay for itself in a couple years.


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Oct 3, 2014)

Carl Webber said:


> I went and visited Tarm the other day and picked up a few parts i needed for my boiler. They have some nice stuff. I picked up a catalog and a price list. Some of their stuff really isn't that expensive. It looks like i could get an 80% efficient gassifier for about $6000. If i come across that kind of money that should pay for itself in a couple years.


I met Chris at the Hanover Show I got busted trying to scratch the Froling there so it could be sold cheaper. Wealth of straight up Knowledge and a certainly a willingness to share with this DIY guy. The plumbing schematics that the company shares are a great benefit to the industry!


----------



## hobbyheater (Oct 3, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Ha, hobbyheater has a fellow Jetstreamer on board. Awesome.




That is six that I know of now!


----------



## NE WOOD BURNER (Oct 3, 2014)

hobbyheater said:


> That is six that I know of now!


That is awesome! I see a Jetstream for sale in "Uncle Henrys" $1000-FYI


----------



## JETSTREAMER (Oct 6, 2014)

hobbyheater said:


> Welcome to the forum! Canadian EH?
> How long have you had your  Jetstream?  Which blower are you using ?
> 
> The EDPM liners were a problem.There is much better material now available , not that it will help you  this is a link to a company that sells the new ones .
> ...


I've had it since 1979.  It was serial #32 (before CSA approval).  I've since then replaced the boiler once and the base twice.  I bought Kerr's prototype blower and now on my second one.  My house is 3200sqft and heated only by the Jetstream.  If I ever sell my house I'll take it with me.  We fire it up once a week in the summer to keep the DHW hot.


----------



## JETSTREAMER (Oct 6, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> That is an interesting sounding tank.
> 
> What part of the province are you in?


Stillwater Lake on the Hammonds Plains Road (near exit 5 on Hwy 103.


----------



## hobbyheater (Oct 6, 2014)

JETSTREAMER said:


> I bought Kerr's prototype blower and now on my second one.  .




Is this the blower that you use ? The bearings are standard that can be bought at any automotive shop , but the blower blades I,ve not been able to find replacements.


----------



## JETSTREAMER (Dec 14, 2014)

Hobbyheater
I've been off site for quite a while and don't think I answered your question.  Your blower is the one I use.


----------



## Stoneduster (Dec 26, 2014)

I am a little late responding, but regarding the hassles associated with cleaning your chimneys; There is a fellow here in Vermont that manufactures The Chimney Scrubber, I just found his website, it should explain everything.  Basically you mount cast iron hardware on top of the flue, there is a pulley with a small stainless steel chain that is attached to a brush.  The chain and the brush live in the chimney full time, the brush near the cleanout door.  I don't have much personal experience with these brushes, but from my perspective it seems that if you do a thorough cleaning with regular or even flat wire brushes when you install the product, it will be able to handle maintenance cleanings fairly easily.  I cleaned a customers chimney this fall, it was a real hassle.  I had to set up staging around the chimney, and drill a hole through the bluestone cap in order to get my rods in there, then, visibility was limited so it was difficult to see what I was doing.  While I was staged up, we installed this product to avoid this process yearly.  I will be able to check up on how it performs in the future. I imagine that if you use it often, it will work just fine. www.chimneyscrubber.com


----------

