# Greenheat in DC



## begreen (Nov 16, 2013)

Hard to post from the phone but the heat is on here. Woodstock is holding first place for clean burning. The twin-fire for efficiency. I can tell you that you want to be careful where you place that stove. For a small stove it is hugely radiant.
More later.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Nov 16, 2013)

The twin fire cranks out a lot of heat?


----------



## begreen (Nov 16, 2013)

Oh yeah. Small firebox and shortish burn but you know when it cooking.


----------



## begreen (Nov 16, 2013)

Matt drove 3600 miles to demo his concept rocket stove in a more conventional form factor.





.
This still in prototype stage but it will clear a 10 ft. Radius when fired. It's kind of hard to wear a Hearth.com sweatshirt when these puppies are fired up. Jason's Tremont that mellow provided is blowing away the judges. It recorded zero carbon monoxide yesterday. Not bad for an impromptu retrofit for a big ole dragon.  More later, I need some lunch.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Nov 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> Jason's Tremont that mellow provided is blowing away the judges. It recorded zero carbon monoxide yesterday. Not bad for an impromptu retrofit for a big ole dragon.


What's this about? Which stove is that?

The Woodstock stove looks pretty good in that pic, but god, those accessories are killing me.


----------



## mellow (Nov 16, 2013)

latest results, interesting how the stoves are ranking with efficiency vs emissions. For some reason I can't link a pic from my phone. I will post pics on twitter, follow #stove13.


----------



## Sprinter (Nov 16, 2013)

Thanks for posting, guys.


----------



## Coog (Nov 16, 2013)

Keep it coming.


----------



## begreen (Nov 16, 2013)

I got to learn more about the Union this pm. It is an impressive stove, both for size and exceptional clean burning. There's a lot of tech behind this burner. I'm told the target price is $1500. If they can pull that off it should be a popular stove here.




So far it is the leader for low emissions.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Nov 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> I'm told the target price is $1500. If they can pull that off it should be a popular stove here.


Holy crap. If they can do that AND offer longer burns than the Progress, which is the rumor, I think I found my replacement stoves for the two VCs.


----------



## DevilsBrew (Nov 16, 2013)

Only 10 teams?


----------



## Coog (Nov 16, 2013)

Not sure about that "thing" on top of the Woodstock.  I see the functionality.  Yep that is it.


----------



## mellow (Nov 16, 2013)

got the crew giving a presentation, put a pic up on twitter. Get to hear about everyones background.


----------



## pen (Nov 16, 2013)

keep the updates coming!


----------



## weatherguy (Nov 16, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> What's this about? Which stove is that?
> 
> The Woodstock stove looks pretty good in that pic, but god, those accessories are killing me.


 I like it without all the stuff on it, I'm going to have to seriously consider that stove for that price, looks like a work horse.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Nov 16, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> I like it without all the stuff on it, I'm going to have to seriously consider that stove for that price, looks like a work horse.


If it's $1500 with longer burns, they probably will have my money for two stoves. If I can swing it, it will be as soon as it is released. At this point I could still sell the to VC stoves for about $700-1500 combined as oppose to waiting until the cats and assemblies are shot.

Someone needs to take the waterjet away from them, though.


----------



## webby3650 (Nov 16, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> If it's $1500 with longer burns, they probably will have my money for two stoves. If I can swing it, it will be as soon as it is released. At this point I could still sell the to VC stoves for about $700-1500 combined as oppose to waiting until the cats and assemblies are shot.
> 
> Someone needs to take the waterjet way from them, though.


No kidding! $1500? That has to be a base price or something. Like not including leg or door options. They have sunk tons of money into this thing, I can't see it coming to the market for any less than 2K.


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Nov 16, 2013)

Any details available on the testing protocol the judges are using for emissions & efficiency ?


----------



## BrowningBAR (Nov 16, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> No kidding! $1500? That has to be a base price or something. Like not including leg or door options. They have sunk tons of money into this thing, I can't see it coming to the market for any less than 2K.


Don't go squashing my dreams again, Webby. You had me all excited when you said the Ashford was $2k. Then you killed that dream like telling a kid there's no Santa. What next, no Easter Bunny?!


----------



## ddddddden (Nov 16, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> No kidding! $1500? That has to be a base price or something. . .


Antlers optional.


----------



## webby3650 (Nov 16, 2013)

ddddddden said:


> Antlers optional.


Or diving scuba man, or what ever the heck that thing is in the pic.


----------



## lopiliberty (Nov 16, 2013)

What the hell is with all that stuff on the Woodstock stove???  TOO MUCH time on someone's hands.  I can only imagine walking into someone house and see that coming out the side of there stove


----------



## alforit (Nov 16, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Or diving scuba man, or what ever the heck that thing is in the pic.


 

Its a woman in high heels in her bloomers , swimming...........I think ........lol


----------



## cableman (Nov 16, 2013)

Thats a hot chick!


----------



## begreen (Nov 16, 2013)

Lopi is coming out with a steel version of the Cape Cod Hybrid in a mid-sized ~2.2 cu ft stove. Should be a very interesting stove if it matches the Cape Cod's super low emissions. Expect to see some interesting new options on the market by the beginning of 2014.


----------



## webby3650 (Nov 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> Lopi is coming out with a steel version of the Cape Cod Hybrid in a mid-sized ~2.2 cu ft stove. Should be a very interesting stove if it matches the Cape Cod's super low emissions. Expect to see some interesting new options on the market by the beginning of 2014.


Keep in mind these are prototypes. They have all these stoves at the HPBA show each year and many never make it the market for one reason or another. Lopi has had a small version of the cod in the works since the cape cod came out, it still hasn't made it out, even though its at the show. It is exciting to see all the new stuff though!


----------



## Stax (Nov 16, 2013)

BG, great updates.  Performance aside, the Union is an ugly monster.  Boxy, cold and very industrial looking.  The add ons are worse.


----------



## Tenn Dave (Nov 16, 2013)

Stax said:


> BG, great updates.  Performance aside, the Union is an ugly monster.  Boxy, cold and very industrial looking.  The add ons are worse.


 Woodstock has always done a great job of blending form & function.  For this new stove, it appears the emphasis is clearly on the function side of the equation.  As far as the 'add ons' are concerned, I don't know what they are thinking.


----------



## BrowningBAR (Nov 16, 2013)

Stax said:


> BG, great updates.  Performance aside, the Union is an ugly monster.  Boxy, cold and very industrial looking.  The add ons are worse.


The add-ons are hideous. The legs are troubling. If the legs can be reworked, the core of the stove is a nice looking steel stove.


----------



## pen (Nov 16, 2013)

By the decoration on top, I'm guessing this is the "fun model" of their prototypes that they brought to the show.


----------



## 1750 (Nov 16, 2013)

Thanks for posting these updates.  This is really interesting and it's fun to see the stoves with the mall in the background.

I'm not really getting the lady stove or the antlers.  I'm assuming they've checked these options with their market, but... gah.


----------



## Tenn Dave (Nov 16, 2013)

pen said:


> By the decoration on top, I'm guessing this is the "fun model" of their prototypes that they brought to the show.


Some manufacturers such as Blaze King have done a good job of marketing a great product which places function ahead of form.  The new Woodstock 'core stove' I think looks fine, not as handsome as their other stoves, but it looks functiional.  My big concern is that all the silly bling add ons will cause a lot of people to not take it serious as a potential state of the art heating piece of equipment.  Perhaps I'm overreacting.


----------



## pen (Nov 16, 2013)

Tenn Dave said:


> Some manufacturers such as Blaze King have done a good job of marketing a great product which places function ahead of form.  The new Woodstock 'core stove' I think looks fine, not as handsome as their other stove, but it looks functiional.  My big concern is that all the silly bling add ons will cause a lot of people to not take it serious as a potential state of the art heating piece of equipment.  Perhaps I'm overreacting.



I don't think this event is meant to showcase the stove to the world is it?  Aren't they just having some fun with the design / showing off the burning capabilities not the looks?


----------



## Tenn Dave (Nov 16, 2013)

pen said:


> I don't think this event is meant to showcase the stove to the world is it?  Aren't they just having some fun with the design / showing off the burning capabilities not the looks?


maybe.......I hope you're right.  I'm probably overreacting.


----------



## ddddddden (Nov 17, 2013)

> Thanks for posting these updates. . .


+1


> I'm not really getting the lady stove or the antlers. . .


I think they are just whacky examples of what is possible, _if _a customer wants to customize their stove.


----------



## Stax (Nov 17, 2013)

pen said:


> I don't think this event is meant to showcase the stove to the world is it?  Aren't they just having some fun with the design / showing off the burning capabilities not the looks?



Pen: good question.  However, looks are looks and first appearances leave an impression on our psyche and therefore our purchasing habits.  Your right, the event is to test and inform the "burning public" of the latest stove technology.  It is a matter of function over form, but function is sometimes difficult to get to if you can't stand what you're looking at.


----------



## begreen (Nov 17, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> The add-ons are hideous. The legs are troubling. If the legs can be reworked, the core of the stove is a nice looking steel stove.



I'd like to see the Union stove in all basic metallic black The contrasting color elements accentuate structure but the scheme can come off somewhat awkwardly. I'm not a fan at all of the gearhead direction, but some are evidently. That said, it appears to be an excellent performing stove. Hopefully they are just having fun with the new laser cutter and this will settle down into a simpler stove with options for those that want to gear it up. Note that this is designed as a radiant stove only. There is no blower option.


----------



## Todd (Nov 17, 2013)

Wish I could of made the trip. Who won?


----------



## precaud (Nov 17, 2013)

begreen said:


> Woodstock is holding first place for clean burning. The twin-fire for efficiency. I can tell you that you want to be careful where you place that stove. For a small stove it is hugely radiant.
> More later.



Nice... I know a masonry hearth that it would be just perfect for...


----------



## mellow (Nov 17, 2013)

Todd said:


> Who won?



The winner will be announced on Tuesday at 4pm,  each of these days a team has a chance to test and get their numbers better.  Most teams have come to this competition with preset settings so they will make micro changes, some of the other teams are using each day for testing and making huge changes that could vault them from last place to first place on their very last test.  As I watch football and type this I can't but help see the same here,  all it takes is a hail mary and that team that has no chance could take it all.  From what I understand one stove is down already,  not sure if it will come back online before the last day or not.


----------



## mellow (Nov 17, 2013)

I will give my 2 cents on the woodstock,  I was hoping I would fall in love with it once I saw it in person,  can't say I did.  If any stove captured my attention on looks alone it would be the Wittis,  the fire show from that thing was awesome,  very trippy seeing the flame go DOWN.  I loved that stove,  but the firebox size brought me back to reality,  I would have to cut my wood into kindling to use it.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 17, 2013)

Wet cloudy and temps in the sixties aren't ideal conditions for squeezing the most out of the stoves.


----------



## mellow (Nov 17, 2013)

Looking at Matt Walkers stove I couldn't help but think of the Jotul 606, but I would rather move that 606 than his stove any day.  I hope he is able to improve his numbers by the last day.


----------



## mellow (Nov 17, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Any details available on the testing protocol the judges are using for emissions & efficiency ?



http://www.forgreenheat.org/stovedesign/protocol.html


----------



## PassionForFire&Water (Nov 17, 2013)

From the Facebook page from The Alliance for Green Heat
Looks like the University of Maryland is leading


----------



## mellow (Nov 17, 2013)

Speaking of radiant heat,  you could have roasted marsh mellows 10 feet away from that Treemont.  I am not sure how they operate normally but WOW seeing no smoke coming out of that stack and that much heat coming off that thing,  I seriously think it won hands down for most radiant heat.  Not to mention it helped make a mean Apple Cider.  Everyone could have had a taste of it but the park police were on top of that like flies on you know what, man that was good stuff.


----------



## DevilsBrew (Nov 17, 2013)

Did he say if the Intensifire will be available here in the states?


----------



## 1750 (Nov 17, 2013)

begreen said:


> I'd like to see the Union stove in all basic metallic black The contrasting color elements accentuate structure but the scheme can come off somewhat awkwardly. I'm not a fan at all of the gearhead direction, but some are evidently. That said, it appears to be an excellent performing stove. Hopefully they are just having fun with the new laser cutter and this will settle down into a simpler stove with options for those that want to gear it up. Note that this is designed as a radiant stove only. There is no blower option.


Does it surprise you that there isn't a blower option?   I feel like I get so much more heat out of my stove because of the blower and improving the convection of air around the stove.


----------



## Todd (Nov 17, 2013)

Where are the pictures?


----------



## mellow (Nov 18, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> Did he say if the Intensifire will be available here in the states?



You can buy it from here:  http://www.intensifire.co.nz/products


----------



## mellow (Nov 18, 2013)

Todd said:


> Where are the pictures?



Pics posted in this thread:  https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...6-4-7-on-the-mall.112056/page-11#post-1575423

I also posted pictures on twitter under #stove13  and under my twitter account  https://twitter.com/mailmovers


----------



## Jags (Nov 18, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> The add-ons are hideous. The legs are troubling. If the legs can be reworked, the core of the stove is a nice looking steel stove.



Where are the spinner hub caps?  If you are gonna make it gaudy its gotta have spinner hub caps.


----------



## begreen (Nov 18, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> From the Facebook page from The Alliance for Green Heat
> Looks like the University of Maryland is leading



Woohoo, I love the passion of that team. It's good to see them pull ahead.


----------



## mellow (Nov 19, 2013)

I asked this to the panel, but somehow it got changed to "who do you think has the best stove?"

Who do you think will win the competition?


----------



## Oldhippie (Nov 19, 2013)

Tenn Dave said:


> Some manufacturers such as Blaze King have done a good job of marketing a great product which places function ahead of form.  The new Woodstock 'core stove' I think looks fine, not as handsome as their other stoves, but it looks functiional.  My big concern is that all the silly bling add ons will cause a lot of people to not take it serious as a potential state of the art heating piece of equipment.  Perhaps I'm overreacting.



The are showcasing the ability to put add on "warmer" attachments for clothing or for food, that can be easily customized for each individual buyer. this then provides some unique personality to the stove. It could be artful or functional or not at all.

Additionally, the stove is targeted toward a lower cost price-point and does not intend to provide a high degree of beauty. It is not trying to compete against it's own company's more expensive stoves, like the PH, or other company's stoves like the PEs or Jotuls or Lopi Cape Cod. This stove is targeted more toward the BK market I believe; BIG, fully functional, and midrange cost. $2K is the number I've heard as the target.


----------



## mellow (Nov 19, 2013)

And the winner is:  *Woodstock!*


----------



## eclecticcottage (Nov 19, 2013)

I dunno...I've looked at the pics of it, even without the funky add ons it's really not that good looking of a stove to me.  And it's not like I've got a fancy stove, just a big black square box, so I'm not too fussy about looks.  At least make the door frame and the body the same color, or an option to have it the same!

Just saw the post above me, they won.  I'll be interested in the numbers!


----------



## raybonz (Nov 19, 2013)

mellow said:


> And the winner is:  *Woodstock!*


Can you elaborate as to what they won.. Are you referring to green heat as the cleanest burning best output stove?

Thanks,
Ray


----------



## mellow (Nov 19, 2013)

raybonz said:


> Can you elaborate as to what they won.. Are you referring to green heat as the cleanest burning best output stove?



http://www.biomassmagazine.com/articles/9682/wood-stove-decathalon-underway-in-washington-d-c


----------



## Oldhippie (Nov 19, 2013)

eclecticcottage said:


> I dunno...I've looked at the pics of it, even without the funky add ons it's really not that good looking of a stove to me.  And it's not like I've got a fancy stove, just a big black square box, so I'm not too fussy about looks.  At least make the door frame and the body the same color, or an option to have it the same!
> 
> Just saw the post above me, they won.  I'll be interested in the numbers!



It's a prototype, I there may be a number of changes, in looks, color, add-on' accessories etc and even functionality/features before it ships. But the basic stove burn capability having been tested and passed EPA testing etc, that will stay the same.


----------



## 1750 (Nov 19, 2013)

This was interesting.  Thanks for posting it.

A theme that will resonate here:

"Cordwood is a complex, complicated fuel, particularly when used on a domestic scale... When you have a small stove and put a piece of wood in, the size, geometry, species, and density can have an effect on the stove’s performance.”

"The issue of complication stems from the fact that the U.S. has no firewood standardization, unlike Austria, where there is no debate as to what firewood is... “I manufacture masonry heaters and during start-up, if there are any problems, 90 percent of the time it’s the wood.”'

     -- Norbert Senf of the Masonry Heater Association  (I think that's who they were quoting... it      was a little ambiguous.)


----------



## webbie (Nov 19, 2013)

That's neat to get the recognition for all that hard work and time spent. I know they spent years on the basic technology and chose to innovate as opposed to copy (like many others in all industries do).....

I think all the entrants "won" to some degree because the whole idea here is to further the quest for public, media and governmental involvement. The ability to have these REALLY clean stoves as the next generation will help do away with many of the common complaints about wood burning. All of these technologies are available today (Progress, Cape Cod, Wittus, etc.) and many variations on them will be available in the next couple of years. 

It will be nice when, as with most cars, you can't buy a dirty stove any longer. That is, the customer should automatically get the best available technology for keeping the air clean and getting the most heat from a woodpile. 

Regular EPA stoves have not operated in the field as well as advertised. I think they ended up putting out maybe 1/2 the emissions of non-EPA stoves...as opposed to the 1/6 to 1/10th that was claimed. I think this next round of products will do much better in the real world. 

Now we at Hearth.com just have to keep schooling people about chimneys, wood, operation, etc.
Even the best stoves will not work well if those variables aren't taken care of.


----------



## weatherguy (Nov 19, 2013)

Oldhippie said:


> The are showcasing the ability to put add on "warmer" attachments for clothing or for food, that can be easily customized for each individual buyer. this then provides some unique personality to the stove. It could be artful or functional or not at all.
> 
> Additionally, the stove is targeted toward a lower cost price-point and does not intend to provide a high degree of beauty. It is not trying to compete against it's own company's more expensive stoves, like the PH, or other company's stoves like the PEs or Jotuls or Lopi Cape Cod. This stove is targeted more toward the BK market I believe; BIG, fully functional, and midrange cost. $2K is the number I've heard as the target.


 OH, any idea how large the stove will be or how much BTU output this new stove will have? hard to tell the size from the pictures.


----------



## webbie (Nov 19, 2013)

It's big!
My guess is they will eventually have smaller models in the same basic type, but this is a whole house heater for cold climates!

In person (in stove?), it's larger than what the pics seem.

In terms of BTU output, it's the usual formulas - depends on the wood species, burn time, etc. but my take is this will be among the most capable stoves on the market in terms of long burn with a medium or large heat output. Did I mention it is big?


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 19, 2013)

It is a big honkin steel stove. Have I ever mentioned that I love big honkin steel stoves?


----------



## ddddddden (Nov 20, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> OH, any idea how large the stove will be or how much BTU output this new stove will have?





			
				Woodstock said:
			
		

> http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/02/wood-stove-design-challenge-finalist.html#more
> 
> *The Union Hybrid will have a firebox of approximately 3.3 cubic ft., and burn cleanly at a wide variety of outputs*. . .






mellow said:


> And the winner is: *Woodstock!*


Congrats!


----------



## teutonicking (Nov 20, 2013)

webbie said:


> It's big!
> My guess is they will eventually have smaller models in the same basic type, but this is a whole house heater for cold climates!
> 
> In person (in stove?), it's larger than what the pics seem.
> ...


 
I took a picture of it while I was there.  I couldn't get very close to it, though.


----------



## teutonicking (Nov 20, 2013)

begreen said:


> Hard to post from the phone but the heat is on here. Woodstock is holding first place for clean burning. The twin-fire for efficiency. I can tell you that you want to be careful where you place that stove. For a small stove it is hugely radiant.
> More later.


 
I took a movie of it burning on my Iphone but it won't download a mov file.  Is there any way to post it on here?


----------



## teutonicking (Nov 20, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> OH, any idea how large the stove will be or how much BTU output this new stove will have? hard to tell the size from the pictures.


 
The size looks very similar to my Progress Hybrid.  In talking to folks from Woodstock, I was told that the technology on the new steel stove is simlar to the PH.  In terms of heat, the steel stove will burn longer than the PH, but put out a bit less heat than the PH.  Of course, the new stove will be priced significantly lower.  I was told it will be less than $2,000, and they are trying to approach the $1500 mark.  I replied that if they are able to sell their new stove for $1500, they will be competative price-wise with almost any stove on the market, and they should expect a lot of sales.


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I took a movie of it burning on my Iphone but it won't download a mov file.  Is there any way to post it on here?


Post it to youtube and then provide a link?


----------



## teutonicking (Nov 20, 2013)

BrowningBAR said:


> The twin fire cranks out a lot of heat?


 
I believe that stove puts out just over 40,000 BTUs.  But you also need to load it every few hours--it can only hold about 3-4 small splits--I think about 12" in length if I recall.


----------



## weatherguy (Nov 20, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> The size looks very similar to my Progress Hybrid.  In talking to folks from Woodstock, I was told that the technology on the new steel stove is simlar to the PH.  In terms of heat, the steel stove will burn longer than the PH, but put out a bit less heat than the PH.  Of course, the new stove will be priced significantly lower.  I was told it will be less than $2,000, and they are trying to approach the $1500 mark.  I replied that if they are able to sell their new stove for $1500, they will be competative price-wise with almost any stove on the market, and they should expect a lot of sales.


I was going to get the PH next year but I'm going to hold off and see how this one ends up, if it fits into my FP I'd probably go with the new one.
My install will look like this one, in fact just eyeballing it looks almost exactly the same size as my FP, it's definitely with an inch or two.


----------



## teutonicking (Nov 20, 2013)

begreen said:


> Post it to youtube and then provide a link?


 
Good idea.  Here it is:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4se4LuRjX6g


----------



## Jags (Nov 20, 2013)

Wow - that is some sort of little gassifying monster.  Kool.


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

mellow said:


> http://www.biomassmagazine.com/articles/9682/wood-stove-decathalon-underway-in-washington-d-c



The article covers the day before the final results were in. Is there another out yet that has the conclusion and test results?

In the article I found this perspective interesting. This is something we have been observing for several years.

_Cordwood is a complex, complicated fuel, particularly when used on a domestic scale, emphasized Senf. “When you have a small stove and put a piece of wood in, the size, geometry, species, and density can have an effect on the stove’s performance.”

The issue of complication stems from the fact that the U.S. has no firewood standardization, unlike Austria, where there is no debate as to what firewood is, he said. “I manufacture masonry heaters and during start-up, if there are any problems, 90 percent of the time it’s the wood.”

“We don’t have the same wood culture than they do in Europe,” Wittus added. “That’s what we need to teach people.”_


----------



## mellow (Nov 20, 2013)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/20/s...s-for-a-cleaner-burning-wood-stove.html?_r=1&

Have not found the final break downs yet.


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

I just heard back from John Ackerley. They hope to have a updated report later today. In the meantime visit their website for the latest. Tom of Woodstock generously turned over the grand prize money to hearth.com members Matt (nwwalker) and Jason with his Intensifire. That's a huge help to these guys that paid out of their pocket to travel and demonstrate their ideas and a class act by Tom Morrisey. 

Here is a blog post on the final rankings:
http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2013/11/ranking-of-stoves-at-wood-stove.html

Kudos to U of MD for the lowest emissions stove. And to Wittus for creating the most efficient stove tested.


----------



## mellow (Nov 20, 2013)

begreen said:


> Here is a blog post on the final rankings:
> http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2013/11/ranking-of-stoves-at-wood-stove.html



Not sure that is final,  it says "As of 4:00 PM Sunday 11/17" above it unless that was the last test used?


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

John said he hopes to have an update out later today that lists the final results.


----------



## Tenn Dave (Nov 20, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> I was going to get the PH next year but I'm going to hold off and see how this one ends up, if it fits into my FP I'd probably go with the new one.
> My install will look like this one, in fact just eyeballing it looks almost exactly the same size as my FP, it's definitely with an inch or two.


 Wow, that picture is very handsome !!


----------



## weatherguy (Nov 20, 2013)

Tenn Dave said:


> Wow, that picture is very handsome !!


 Yeah, I wasn't crazy about brown but it looks good in their set up, since mine's the same I'm considering brown if I get one. Anxious to see the final product of the steel hybrid.


----------



## alforit (Nov 20, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> I was going to get the PH next year but I'm going to hold off and see how this one ends up, if it fits into my FP I'd probably go with the new one.
> My install will look like this one, in fact just eyeballing it looks almost exactly the same size as my FP, it's definitely with an inch or two.


 

If your set up is as tight of clearance as this photo then the Steel Hybrid stove might not work...........Its minimum adjustable height is 31 inches. That's almost 3 inches taller than the PH.


----------



## teutonicking (Nov 20, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> Yeah, I wasn't crazy about brown but it looks good in their set up, since mine's the same I'm considering brown if I get one. Anxious to see the final product of the steel hybrid.



I have one in brown as well.  I love the way it looks, particularly with the brownish bricks that I have in my chimney and hearth.  But its obviously a personal preference issue.


----------



## eclecticcottage (Nov 20, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I was told it will be less than $2,000, and they are trying to approach the $1500 mark.  I replied that if they are able to sell their new stove for $1500, they will be competative price-wise with almost any stove on the market, and they should expect a lot of sales.


 
I agree 100% depending on the end design AND the requirements (clearances and hearthpad).  I've filed away the info on the Sirocco as a good possibility if not much changes by the time we decide we want to replace the Republic, which hopefully won't be too soon, unless we really need the burn times for some reason.  BUT that kind of pricing and knowing it's a quality company...I'll keep an eye out for a smaller version, since over 3 CU FT is just WAY too much stove for this place.  I bet a 2 CU FT firebox with a comparable price range would be a great seller, for those of use heating smaller spaces.


----------



## Oldhippie (Nov 20, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> View attachment 118228
> 
> 
> 
> I have one in brown as well.  I love the way it looks, particularly with the brownish bricks that I have in my chimney and hearth.  But its obviously a personal preference issue.



That is PURDY! I also like the charcoal against red brick too.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Nov 20, 2013)

begreen said:


> Tom of Woodstock generously turned over the grand prize money to hearth.com members Matt (nwwalker) and Jason with his Intensifire. That's a huge help to these guys that paid out of their pocket to travel and demonstrate their ideas and a class act by Tom Morrisey.


 


*thats as classy an act as ive seen in ages!* kudo's to tom and his bunch, congrats on the win! hearing what he did for those guys who paid outta pocket on  a shoestring budget makes me an even bigger fan of his company , products and definately him


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

I don't know it they shared it all with them. But I did read that Woodstock bought Matt's rocket stove to take back with them and will be working with Matt on refining rocket stove tech. Pretty neat stuff.


----------



## Jags (Nov 20, 2013)

Woodstock + Rocketstove = KOOOOL


----------



## 1750 (Nov 20, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> Good idea.  Here it is:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4se4LuRjX6g


How is the fire coming down like that?   Very interesting.


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

Jags said:


> Woodstock + Rocketstove = KOOOOL



Yes, speaking to Matt, all his stove lacked was thermal mass in the upper chamber. A serpentine channel of soapstone up there should make an interesting combo.


----------



## weatherguy (Nov 20, 2013)

alforit said:


> If your set up is as tight of clearance as this photo then the Steel Hybrid stove might not work...........Its minimum adjustable height is 31 inches. That's almost 3 inches taller than the PH.


 That's what I was afraid of, I'll have to measure exact when the time comes, shrouds in the way now.


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Nov 20, 2013)

eclecticcottage said:


> I dunno...I've looked at the pics of it, even without the funky add ons it's really not that good looking of a stove to me.  And it's not like I've got a fancy stove, just a big black square box, so I'm not too fussy about looks.  At least make the door frame and the body the same color, or an option to have it the same!
> 
> Just saw the post above me, they won.  I'll be interested in the numbers!



If it is just the black box you want, that is a possibility. This is one thing they have aimed for; each to his or her own. If you are not interested in color options or anything else, that is what you can get.


----------



## weatherguy (Nov 20, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> View attachment 118228
> 
> 
> 
> I have one in brown as well.  I love the way it looks, particularly with the brownish bricks that I have in my chimney and hearth.  But its obviously a personal preference issue.


 That's real nice teut, how many sf you heating with that baby? I saw a epa list of stove output and the PH was something like 13k btu - 73k btu, that's a lot of juice, my princess was something like 12k - 29 k


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Nov 20, 2013)

We had to laugh Sunday when they tested the Ideal Steel. Such low numbers could not be accounted for so they would not accept them and blamed their equipment. Yet, we found it interesting that they took the same equipment to two other stoves and continued the testing. Woodstock was tested again later and as you can see, the numbers had to come out good to put them back on top. 

I also agree:  Tom Morrissey is one wonderful class act.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 20, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> We had to laugh Sunday when they tested the Ideal Steel. Such low numbers could not be accounted for so they would not accept them and blamed their equipment.



That happened on at least one test run of Jason's device in the old Treemont too.


----------



## alforit (Nov 20, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> We had to laugh Sunday when they tested the Ideal Steel. Such low numbers could not be accounted for so they would not accept them and blamed their equipment. Yet, we found it interesting that they took the same equipment to two other stoves and continued the testing. Woodstock was tested again later and as you can see, the numbers had to come out good to put them back on top.
> 
> I also agree:  Tom Morrissey is one wonderful class act.


 

I am very impressed by this man...........What a selfless act he has done...........


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> If it is just the black box you want, that is a possibility. This is one thing they have aimed for; each to his or her own. If you are not interested in color options or anything else, that is what you can get.



They're going to spin off an all black version on their Solid Works system for me. After a close look I think the stove will look better stripped of all the bling and in monotone coloring. It will still have an industrial look, but that will be less prominent in monotone. This is what I would expect for the base $1500 model to look like.


----------



## weatherguy (Nov 20, 2013)

begreen said:


> They're going to spin off an all black version on their Solid Works system for me. After a close look I think the stove will look better stripped of all the bling and in monotone coloring. It will still have an industrial look, but that will be less prominent in monotone. This is what I would expect for the base $1500 model to look like.


 Are you a beta tester? When you getting it BG?


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

No, I think that would be unlikely. I wouldn't mind testing the stove at all but my wife is pretty particular about the looks of a stove sitting in the living room. It's a visual focal point so looks are important to her. I might get away with testing it for a season, but I suspect that would only be if we hung on to the T6. But who knows? I'll show her the all black model and will let her be the judge.


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

More press. This time from the National Geographic Society.

Looks like Wittus and Lopi tied for second prize. They donated the $10K award back to the alliance for Green Heat. Well done folks. Here is further info from the article:

_Winners for individual categories were HWAM (Danish) for innovation; Travis Industries for lowest carbon monoxide emissions and also for market appeal; IntensiFire for affordability; the University of Maryland's Mulciber for lowest particulate emissions; and Woodstock Soapstone for efficiency._
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/11/131120-wood-stove-decathlon-winners/

I love the comradery and helpfulness of all the companies. This was a good meet for everyone. I'm particularly happy for the Mulciber team. They approached stove design from a new angle and came up with an exceptionally clean burning design. An kudos to Jason for an affordable design to convert smoke dragons into clean burners.


----------



## begreen (Nov 20, 2013)

GHA blog just updated with the final results:
http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2013/11/woodstock-soapstone-travis-and-wittus.html


----------



## teutonicking (Nov 20, 2013)

weatherguy said:


> That's real nice teut, how many sf you heating with that baby? I saw a epa list of stove output and the PH was something like 13k btu - 73k btu, that's a lot of juice, my princess was something like 12k - 29 k


 
Thanks.  I have it on the main floor in the family room.  It heats 3,400 square feet (the floor its on and the upstairs--about 1700 square feet per floor x 2).  I am able to close off some of the bedrooms upstairs if it gets cold so I can focus the heat in the rooms that we use the most.  The stove puts out a ton of heat, and I can generally keep my home in the low 70s, as long as its not below 20 degrees outside.  The area in Maryland where I live (near Washington, D.C,) generally has pretty mild winters.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 20, 2013)

Great article BG. Thanks. I loved being able to attend and see the contestants and stoves. I am only sorry that more recognition wasn't given to the Smart Stove controller that in day to day burning will probably do more for efficiency than all of the stove design features in the world.  

As Grady Booch said: "A fool with a tool is still a fool." 

Hearth.com will just have to fill in on the education front in the meantime.


----------



## Cynnergy (Nov 20, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Hearth.com will just have to fill in on the education front in the meantime.



And you do a great job of it too.  Thanks mods and members for filling in the details for those of us who couldn't be there!


----------



## Floydian (Nov 21, 2013)

Just checked out http://wittus.com/ for more info on the Twinfire. I have been wondering when we would see the down draft secondary combustion idea in a wood stove.
Not sure about the 93% efficiency claim though. Combustion efficiency is one thing, heat transfer efficiency another and system efficiency another thing still. Sure wouldn't want a condensing wood stove in my house.

Anyone have any idea what flue temps run on the Twinfire at full burn?

Then there is the video....... Not sure the efficiency out ways the complications.


Seriously though, nice stove! Bet it's pricey.

Noah


----------



## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

I'm not sure how they are measuring efficiency, but of all the stoves I saw at the show the Wittus Twin-Fire seemed the most radiant. When it was burning a 3 log load the heat radiating from the front of the stove was easily felt 15 ft away.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 21, 2013)

That Wittus was throwing some serious heat for sure.


----------



## Oldhippie (Nov 21, 2013)

begreen said:


> No, I think that would be unlikely. I wouldn't mind testing the stove at all but my wife is pretty particular about the looks of a stove sitting in the living room. It's a visual focal point so looks are important to her. I might get away with testing it for a season, but I suspect that would only be if we hung on to the T6. But who knows? I'll show her the all black model and will let her be the judge.



Looks count in my Living Room too. WAF is a key metric.


----------



## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

The Masonry Heat Association has just posted a good photo essay on the Green Alliance Decathlon. This is part one:

http://www.mha-net.org/documents/woodstove-decathlon-part-1/


----------



## begreen (Nov 21, 2013)

Here's a local TV program praising Woodstock's win. 
http://www.wcax.com/story/24027106/upper-valley-woodstove-company-smokes-the-competition


----------



## Huntindog1 (Nov 22, 2013)

I wonder if the Wittus is throwing more heat as it has twice the window area. There is some serious radiant heat that comes thru a window and having two windows cant be a bad thing.


----------



## begreen (Nov 22, 2013)

Twice the glass area helps as does the intense temp of the secondary chamber.


----------



## begreen (Nov 22, 2013)

Here is a good article on the decathlon in the National Journal, watch the video too. Good shot of the Wittus running and a short interview on the Mulciber:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/inno...ergy-stuck-400-000-years-in-the-past-20131120


----------



## jack_90125 (Nov 22, 2013)

I dunno 2.5 million plus wood burners most of the cause of pollution?
I would think trucks,busses coal plants,,factories airplanes etc are far more polluting.
yes I can see the usefulness of trying to do better but there are tons of other factors not including poolution in general and what we do to the water supply and oceans,rivers etc.
sounds more like scapegoating more than anything else.


----------



## begreen (Nov 22, 2013)

I didn't get that slant at all. The focus of the article was on wood smoke specifically and not pollution in general. Of course there are other sources of air pollution, but in the article they are discussing the effects of wood burning, around the world and the influence of a contest like Green Heat just held. Raw wood smoke from fireplaces, old smoke dragons, open pit fires, etc. is incredibly polluting. The point of the article is that new technology is going to be needed to clean up stove smoke. The Univ. of Maryland's team achieved zero particulate in some tests. Jason's simple downdraft adapter achieved zero carbon monoxide in some tests. This is great progress and indicative of a future trend in wood burners. Many of the stoves at the show have emissions down in the pellet stove range.That's pretty amazing!

Remember, in many parts of the world cooking and heat are still done with an open flame wood fire. This causes major health issues. There are great efforts on cleaner burning cook stoves too. They had a few showing at the decathlon and locally a company has started mass production of a cleaner cook stove. This will save lives and reduce fuel consumption significantly. That in turn could save a lot of habitat from being destroyed for fuel. Modern, simple cook stoves for developing areas can burn 50% less fuel and put out 95% less smoke. 

http://www.burndesignlab.org/our-stoves/
http://www.biolitestove.com/homestove/overview/


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Nov 22, 2013)

i remember during my tour in Korea the locals heated with a stove which burned "andol" (not sure the spelling) it was essentially a big cylindrical block of what looked like coal or charcoal obviously molded from a slurry and dried with holes through it to allow combustion, one would burn for several hours and smelled pretty bad. you could literally smell the gasses from it in the homes. knowing what i know now about stoves it makes me shudder to think of how unhealthy these things were.


----------



## begreen (Nov 22, 2013)

This is Dehli, India in 2004. That fug is from coal fired power plants and many hundreds of thousands dung fires. In winter you could hear the native coughing a lot. Locally they called it the Delhi chuff.


----------



## Holiday (Nov 22, 2013)

I worked in India in 02. Always flew into Mumbai and spent a day there before heading 200 miles north of there. Not a pleasant smell, especially in the winter when it's a bit cooler.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 22, 2013)

When we left Vietnam the air quality probably improved a thousand percent. What we mixed with diesel fuel and burned constantly wasn't for heat.


----------



## Hogwildz (Nov 22, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> When we left Vietnam the air quality probably improved a thousand percent. What we mixed with diesel fuel and burned constantly wasn't for heat.


Ah the diesel doot fires, nothing like the smell of burning diesel and crap.


----------



## begreen (Nov 24, 2013)

National Geographic has just posted a nice film on the decatholon:


----------



## Todd (Nov 24, 2013)

I think they are all winners, clean burn, high efficiency in every model but does it really make that big a difference between 1gph and 10 gph? Or a 5-10% efficiency improvement? One big forest fire out west will wipe out any gain by cleaner more efficient wood stove regs. I'm for all cleaner more efficient stoves but I think we are getting a little to picky on numbers and don't look at the real world.


----------



## BrotherBart (Nov 24, 2013)

Point I tried to make on the panel is that you can build the cleanest burning most efficient stove on the planet and if you can't educate the operator it is all for nothing.

"Use dry wood and don't let the stove glow." Ain't getting it done.


----------



## webbie (Nov 24, 2013)

Todd said:


> I think they are all winners, clean burn, high efficiency in every model but does it really make that big a difference between 1gph and 10 gph? Or a 5-10% efficiency improvement? One big forest fire out west will wipe out any gain by cleaner more efficient wood stove regs. I'm for all cleaner more efficient stoves but I think we are getting a little to picky on numbers and don't look at the real world.



It makes a difference in more heat from less wood and in the local neighborhood also.....

But I'm with you in the real world. Way back when this all started, the Defiant Encore beat most every stove in the market in tests - something like 1.6 gph compared to 6 for a lot of other stoves. Then some in-home studies were done and it was found that almost none of the EPA stoves performed as advertised. Other studies since have shown a 50 or 60% reduction (I think) from non-EPA stove, nowhere near what the numbers say...

But that's just the point. These newer designs are being tested with real wood....which is a good thing! It will take a long time, but eventually you will be likely to not even know when your neighbors are burning wood...or you'll just get that pleasant smell instead of the one that burns your eyes.

BB has a point about customer education. Look at the wood shed here and we can see that many folks are building sheds, drying and storing properly, etc. - a lot of the problems have always related to lack of education.


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Nov 25, 2013)

webbie said:


> It makes a difference in more heat from less wood and in the local neighborhood also.....
> 
> But I'm with you in the real world. Way back when this all started, the Defiant Encore beat most every stove in the market in tests - something like 1.6 gph compared to 6 for a lot of other stoves. Then some in-home studies were done and it was found that almost none of the EPA stoves performed as advertised. Other studies since have shown a 50 or 60% reduction (I think) from non-EPA stove, nowhere near what the numbers say...
> 
> ...


 


well the difference is that cordwood is not used for emmissions testing by the labs. the reason is they need a "control" for the test so they use a weighed set of douglas fir dried to a certain moisture percentage  now , the numbers will not match with cordwood due to the variables in the wood , but the numbers do corrolate somewhat , a stove that tests at 1.6 while it wont hit that number with cordwood will burn cleaned with cordwood (when used properly) than a stove that comes in at say 6.0


----------



## mellow (Nov 25, 2013)

Wow National Geographic,  way to be biased.  Focus on *2* stoves out of all the others.  I now know to take their reporting with a grain of salt.

If they wanted to do reporting they would be focused on the people that had to pay out of pocket to be at that challenge, not some college kids who are using this for a grade.


----------

