# BK Ashford Smoke Smell Follow Up



## Calentarse (Mar 24, 2015)

Ok, so the single wall pipe is GONE. Finally got my double wall installed. The pipe is made by Olympia. It's their Ventis pipe. Very durable, 24 gauge. Nice stuff. Fits so tight and I couldn't say that for my single wall. Had to be losing draft because of those gaps and the heat loss.

This double wall is HOT though on the outside. I thought it'd be cool to the touch! It's even hotter than my single wall up by where it connects to the ceiling. Am I imagining this?!

I regret to inform that I still have a smoke smell coming from the front of the stove, pouring out from the front of the top lid. I smell nothing around the pipe connector except the smell of the new curing paint (totally different smell, of course) I'm aware this will fade, and then I'll relive it when my Thermalox Parchment arrives and I repaint.

The following pictures will tell all...I just took them all back to back.

Ok webby, BKVP, Highbeam and ANYONE else out there who can help, thoughts? Love my stove but HATE THIS SMELL.


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## webby3650 (Mar 24, 2015)

First, split that wood and try again. 10% is pretty unlikely on a fresh split unless you have a kiln.
Not that this is your issue.


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## begreen (Mar 24, 2015)

Double wall pipe does get hot on the outside, just not as hot as single wall. I can usually touch it briefly. Single wall would have burned me in the same circumstance. The surface thermometer is not worth much on double-wall pipe. You need a flue probe thermometer to know the actual temp, though with a 225F surface temp it seems like the flue gases are plenty hot.

I feel for you. There should be zero smoke smell at this point. Something is definitely wrong.


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## Calentarse (Mar 24, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> First, split that wood and try again. 10% is pretty unlikely on a fresh split unless you have a kiln.
> Not that this is your issue.


Hey webby, I did split it but that was a piece of heart wood, small. No sapwood on it whatsoever. So, I split another piece and I still get 12-15% consistently. Now, this is loblolly pine. It's just over a year old. It's the driest wood I have. Don't be fooled; my oak is anywhere from 16-20%. It's 2.5 yrs old and I just can't get it any drier...

At any rate, this is annoying. If this stove is this finicky maybe we aren't meant to be


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## webby3650 (Mar 24, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> Hey webby, I did split it but that was a piece of heart wood, small. No sapwood on it whatsoever. So, I split another piece and I still get 12-15% consistently. Now, this is loblolly pine. It's just over a year old. It's the driest wood I have. Don't be fooled; my oak is anywhere from 16-20%. It's 2.5 yrs old and I just can't get it any drier...
> 
> At any rate, this is annoying. If this stove is this finicky maybe we aren't meant to be


The stove isn't that picky. It's the least picky of all the stoves I've ran! Something is going on?


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## motorsargeT (Mar 24, 2015)

I have a sirroco 30 and am getting the same smoke smell from the left front by the top of the door.  Definitely smoke, not some other smell and its consistent every time I fill it.  I hooked the stove up 5 weeks ago and it did it from day 1.  It has gotten worse over the past 2 weeks.  I let the fire die after it put my father in the hospital on Saturday (reactive airway disorder) and dove into it this morning.  There was brown soot staining on the outside of the door gasket on the hinge side where the seam in the gasket is.  The gasket bunches up a bit there.  It looks identical to the op's gasket pictures he posted in one of his earlier threads.  I fluffed the gasket, did a dollar bill test which was fine, and adjusted the door one turn on the latch.  I then started it cold with dry kindling and 5 splits I had been putting aside that measured 14-16 percent on the moisture meter.  After engaging the cat and dialing it back on the stat, smell is still there.  Maybe a bit less, business still there.  I'm starting to get frustrated with it and if my father cant visit its going back to blaze king.  I just ordered more double wall stove pipe with 45 degree bends to eliminate the 90 I currently have.  I have already added 3 feet to the chimney and sealed the stove adapter and the double wall joints.  I am running out of ideas on how to eliminate this.  The worst part is I had a woodstock ideal steel on deposit and canceled it because I felt the stat on the blaze king would work better in my house.  Im sort of regretting it now because they seem to be much more tolerant of not ideal draft.


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## Calentarse (Mar 24, 2015)

Just did a hot reload before bed. I dare say there wasn't AS MUCH smoke spillage. There was definitely still some as I had the door cracked and slowly crept the door open, watching it, and boom! it starts rolling out into the room and rising straight up as I slide a log in there real quick. But my point is, it wasn't as bad as with the single wall. Who knows if this is incidental and unrelated to the double wall. Time will tell.


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## Calentarse (Mar 24, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> I have a sirroco 30 and am getting the same smoke smell from the left front by the top of the door.  Definitely smoke, not some other smell and its consistent every time I fill it.  I hooked the stove up 5 weeks ago and it did it from day 1.  It has gotten worse over the past 2 weeks.  I let the fire die after it put my father in the hospital on Saturday (reactive airway disorder) and dove into it this morning.  There was brown soot staining on the outside of the door gasket on the hinge side where the seam in the gasket is.  The gasket bunches up a bit there.  It looks identical to the op's gasket pictures he posted in one of his earlier threads.  I fluffed the gasket, did a dollar bill test which was fine, and adjusted the door one turn on the latch.  I then started it cold with dry kindling and 5 splits I had been putting aside that measured 14-16 percent on the moisture meter.  After engaging the cat and dialing it back on the stat, smell is still there.  Maybe a bit less, business still there.  I'm starting to get frustrated with it and if my father cant visit its going back to blaze king.  I just ordered more double wall stove pipe with 45 degree bends to eliminate the 90 I currently have.  I have already added 3 feet to the chimney and sealed the stove adapter and the double wall joints.  I am running out of ideas on how to eliminate this.  The worst part is I had a woodstock ideal steel on deposit and canceled it because I felt the stat on the blaze king would work better in my house.  Im sort of regretting it now because they seem to be much more tolerant of not ideal draft.


Well good to know the gasket issue is not going lead me anywhere. Thought about centering it. Your 90 elimination is a good move. I'm just so tired...


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## webby3650 (Mar 24, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> Just did a hot reload before bed. I dare say there wasn't AS MUCH smoke spillage. There was definitely still some as I had the door cracked and slowly crept the door open, watching it, and boom! it starts rolling out into the room and rising straight up as I slide a log in there real quick. But my point is, it wasn't as bad as with the single wall. Who knows if this is incidental and unrelated to the double wall. Time will tell.


So you are getting smoke spillage when you open the door? As well as a smoke smell when you are running with the bypass closed? Does it happen at all settings? Or just lower settings?


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## cannon (Mar 25, 2015)

The smoke smell is coming from the door gasket,it's the way the doors are made, they are just not air tight,I have had 3 doors from blaze king and mine still stinks. The last time I called about it they said I don't know what you want us to do.


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## rdust (Mar 25, 2015)

Maybe this will help?  Parallax posted about a door adjustment in his thread.  Here is a snip it of his post.  



Parallax said:


> They inspected the stove. The cat looked fine but they found that the source of the leak might be that the door gasket was hitting near the edge on the left side (closest to the hinge). Chris was still on the phone. He ran out to the warehouse to find out if the door could be adjusted on the Ashford. It turned out that the whole front panel could be moved. So he instructed them on how to do that.
> 
> Once the stove was adjusted we lit a fire. There was almost no wood smoke smell. Just a tiny bit near one corner of the door. Chris, who had already offered to replace the stove, said he'd be happy to try replacing the door gasket and the cat to see if that fixes it.


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## pdxdave (Mar 25, 2015)

The frustrating part about seeing this play out from my perspective, is that you guys are jumping through ALL the hoops (some multiple times) to get this resolved, but still not even inching towards a resolution to the issue. I can't imagine how it must be for you!

I'm still trying to figure out how a gasket leak could let smoke out...


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## brad wilton (Mar 25, 2015)

Sounds like bad draft, it might be they need a clean run?


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## webby3650 (Mar 25, 2015)

The strange part is that smoke is coming out of the stove. That's contrary to a leaky door gasket, it should be sucking air in. Everything points to bad draft, or poor draft caused by an overly tight home. The only time I've seen this happen it was caused by something in the house. Range hood, furnace, clothes dryer etc. Maybe these few people that are experiencing issues with smoke have a pretty severe negative pressure issue in their home?  Combine that issue with a stove that is more draft sensitive than others and the problem arises.


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> The strange part is that smoke is coming out of the stove. That's contrary to a leaky door gasket, it should be sucking air in. Everything points to bad draft, or poor draft caused by an overly tight home. The only time I've seen this happen it was caused by something in the house. Range hood, furnace, clothes dryer etc. Maybe these few people that are experiencing issues with smoke have a pretty severe negative pressure issue in their home?  Combine that issue with a stove that is more draft sensitive than others and the problem arises.



My house leaks like a sieve.  I know that my chimney setup is not ideal but when I open the door on a hot reload I get 0 spillage and the fire takes off up the bypass.  The hinge side of my glass and door has from day 1 been covered with a ton more creosote buildup than the latch side.  It does not matter how I load it or burn it it builds up a lot more on that side.  Inside the stove its the same thing, more buildup on that side.  I took some pictures of the gasket this morning after it cooled off a bit but they don't really show what I can see with my eyes.  Down low on the gasket the soot line starts and curls around where the knife edge is as it travels up the door until it is on the outside.  No visible smoke, but the smell is there.  I will post the pics when I can today.  My theory is the airflow and smoke flow in the stove is a bit different on that side.  Combined with a slightly misplaced gasket seam and marginal draft if causes a way for an escape path for smoke to exit the stove.


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## webby3650 (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> My house leaks like a sieve.  I know that my chimney setup is not ideal but when I open the door on a hot reload I get 0 spillage and the fire takes off up the bypass.  The hinge side of my glass and door has from day 1 been covered with a ton more creosote buildup than the latch side.  It does not matter how I load it or burn it it builds up a lot more on that side.  Inside the stove its the same thing, more buildup on that side.  I took some pictures of the gasket this morning after it cooled off a bit but they don't really show what I can see with my eyes.  Down low on the gasket the soot line starts and curls around where the knife edge is as it travels up the door until it is on the outside.  No visible smoke, but the smell is there.  I will post the pics when I can today.  My theory is the airflow and smoke flow in the stove is a bit different on that side.  Combined with a slightly misplaced gasket seam and marginal draft if causes a way for an escape path for smoke to exit the stove.


What's your chimney set up like? What's not ideal about it?
Can you just throw a new gasket on it and see if it changes? Or have the installers come back and do it.


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

we0 said:


> What's your chimney set up like? What's not ideal about it?
> Can you just throw a new gasket on it and see if it changes? Or have the installers come back and do it.


I have an exterior chimney with a thimble.  It has 20 feet of class A with 3 feet of double wall inside the house.   It has a T on the outside and a 90 degree in the house to penetrate the wall.  I installed the stove (I removed the smoke dragon and replaced with this) so no installer to call.  I could replace the gasket but am going to wait until I get the new double wall with 45's in.  If it stays cold enough.  If it doesn't I guess I'll be waiting until the fall.


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## webby3650 (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> I have an exterior chimney with a thimble.  It has 20 feet of class A with 3 feet of double wall inside the house.   It has a T on the outside and a 90 degree in the house to penetrate the wall.  I installed the stove (I removed the smoke dragon and replaced with this) so no installer to call.  I could replace the gasket but am going to wait until I get the new double wall with 45's in.  If it stays cold enough.  If it doesn't I guess I'll be waiting until the fall.


That doesn't sound like a bad set up, it should do ok. When you smell the smoke, is the tstat turned down low? Or does it seem to smell at all settings?


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> That doesn't sound like a bad set up, it should do ok. When you smell the smoke, is the tstat turned down low? Or does it seem to smell at all settings?


It smells almost all the time early in the burn but the lower the stat is set the worse it gets.  After 8 to 10 hours it is no longer noticeable,  but there isn't as much smoke in the Firebox that late in the burn.  I can easily get the advertised burn times and everything is exactly as I thought the stove would be except the smell.  

I feel as if I am clogging up calentarse's thread. I may start my own unless the mods feel the discussion is pertinent to his situation, which it may be.


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

The staining doesn't really show up in the pictures but there is a distinct soot path curling around the gasket to the outside.  I may replace the gasket and see what happens.


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## Highbeam (Mar 25, 2015)

Can both of the chimneys on these problem stoves be eliminated as the cause of smoke spillage? Don't they both meet the minimum and the recommended chimney specs from BK?

The firebox should be airtight. These are welded steel stoves.

I too suffer from smoke rollout when opening the loading door when the firebox still has fuel in it. Never had that at all with the old non-cat on the same chimney. The good news, for me anyways, is that the gasket design on the princess is good enough to seal it in when the door is closed.

Lots of bad PR for BK on this. Do you suppose they are looking into a fix?


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## Charles1981 (Mar 25, 2015)

Well now that the chimney has been changed we can kind of rule that out, and also I would think if draft were a concern then the stove would not be performing well and it sounds like it is performing as directed.

And this doesn't seem to be an issue with reloading

This is a constant issue when the stove is closed and running as normal.

Seems like it must be some design issue. but I don't know just conjecture.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

rdust said:


> Maybe this will help?  Parallax posted about a door adjustment in his thread.  Here is a snip it of his post.


Hi rdust. I remember reading this as well, and it gave me some hope. However, a previous post in this thread about the sirocco door gasket lead to the adjustment of the gasket without resolution. It is not the door gasket. My chimney guy did all kinds of tests and said it is sealing tightly.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

brad wilton said:


> Sounds like bad draft, it might be they need a clean run?


If I have to have a clean run, I have to just deal with this issue. I can't put any more money into this problem and that would require moving my entire chimney.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> My house leaks like a sieve.  I know that my chimney setup is not ideal but when I open the door on a hot reload I get 0 spillage and the fire takes off up the bypass.  The hinge side of my glass and door has from day 1 been covered with a ton more creosote buildup than the latch side.  It does not matter how I load it or burn it it builds up a lot more on that side.  Inside the stove its the same thing, more buildup on that side.  I took some pictures of the gasket this morning after it cooled off a bit but they don't really show what I can see with my eyes.  Down low on the gasket the soot line starts and curls around where the knife edge is as it travels up the door until it is on the outside.  No visible smoke, but the smell is there.  I will post the pics when I can today.  My theory is the airflow and smoke flow in the stove is a bit different on that side.  Combined with a slightly misplaced gasket seam and marginal draft if causes a way for an escape path for smoke to exit the stove.


Tend to agree and second everything you're saying here. The question is, what do we do?


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## cannon (Mar 25, 2015)

Here is a picture of what you are dealing with.Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a  leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> It smells almost all the time early in the burn but the lower the stat is set the worse it gets.  After 8 to 10 hours it is no longer noticeable,  but there isn't as much smoke in the Firebox that late in the burn.  I can easily get the advertised burn times and everything is exactly as I thought the stove would be except the smell.
> 
> I feel as if I am clogging up calentarse's thread. I may start my own unless the mods feel the discussion is pertinent to his situation, which it may be.


You are experiencing the exact same thing as me; after the fire has burnt everything down to the coal stage, I don't smell it anymore. Don't worry about hacking my thread. Any information you get I will be interested in as well.

Couple if interesting facts:

I still get the smell when operating under non-bypass mode. I feel that it is worse, however when cat is engaged.
I get the smell at all settings. It is the worst when the stove is cut back and at the initial stages of burning a fresh load (first 5-7 hours or so)
I get NO SMELL from the back of the stove near the connector or near the cat probe hole. Everything is rising up from the front of the stove.


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2015)

Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?


Highbeam said:


> Can both of the chimneys on these problem stoves be eliminated as the cause of smoke spillage? Don't they both meet the minimum and the recommended chimney specs from BK?
> 
> The firebox should be airtight. These are welded steel stoves.
> 
> ...


Chimney does not appear to be the issue in most of these cases. Some folks have gone to expensive measures to eliminate this as a possibility without noting an improvement in the smoke leakage.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

begreen said:


> Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?
> 
> Chimney does not appear to be the issue in most of these cases. Some folks have gone to expensive measures to eliminate this as a possibility without noting an improvement in the smoke leakage.


I did notice a minor improvement, but that could have been increased draft due to the double-wall or possibly due to the fact that he cleaned my chimney as well. He got about 3 cups of glaze out of it. I can deal with the smoke spillage, although annoying, if I can get this door glass, gasket smoke smell problem resolved. The stove burns just as I had expected it to and it is perfect for my house. I don't want a different stove! I can't go through all this again as I just got it in November. Thermalox is expensive stuff and now I've gotta buy even more for my new double-wall pipe that didn't even fix my smoke smell dilemma. 

Thank you to everyone who is chiming in here. I'm grateful for your opinions and fingers crossed we'll see BKVP chime in here. I know he and BK is busy and I don't want to take up their time if I can fix this on my own but I'm at the end of my rope here (and at the bottom of my bank account).


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## webby3650 (Mar 25, 2015)

begreen said:


> Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?
> 
> Chimney does not appear to be the issue in most of these cases. Some folks have gone to expensive measures to eliminate this as a possibility without noting an improvement in the smoke leakage.


But, many many hundreds don't report any issues at all. ? Maybe a few got out of the factory with bad welds? I don't have any issues with a less than desirable chimney height.


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## Highbeam (Mar 25, 2015)

begreen said:


> Is a setting of 2 considered a lower setting?



No, it is 50% throttle and dead center in the "normal" gold zone on the stat.

Manually welding those studs onto the door allows quite a variability in ultimate stud length. Many welds on the BK look robotically welded, are the studs robo welded? I have the same studs sticking into my princess gasket and one of them even has a loose nut!


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2015)

The glass retainers on our stove are out of the way of the gasket path. This was the same on our F400.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> But, many many hundreds don't report any issues at all. ? Maybe a few got out of the factory with bad welds? I don't have any issues with a less than desirable chimney height.


Which leads me to believe that it isn't draft related, despite the numerous attempts to convince me otherwise. I'm so confused; there are so many factors contributing to and contradicting what everyone's saying...

If it's a weld and behind one of the air inlet tubes in the top of the stove, how would I see it? My chimney guy went all through it and he didn't find anything (and he was the one who found the crack in my VC). This seems less probable that the aforementioned gasket issues.


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## pdxdave (Mar 25, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> But, many many hundreds don't report any issues at all. ? Maybe a few got out of the factory with bad welds? I don't have any issues with a less than desirable chimney height.


There's plenty enough of the issues on these forums that I think there is clearly a design or QC issue going. Remember for every 1 person we see on this forum there's probably at least another 10 out there with the same issue we don't hear from. Now I'm not wanting to throw gas on the fire, but rather I think it's time to take some of the pressure off of the stove owners here who have posted every detail, every picture, and made every modification, adjustment, measurement now matter how obscure and bizarre that has been thrown at them from a variety of angles, and start to focus on the hardware itself.


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## chance04 (Mar 25, 2015)

If you have a mechanic friend, seal up the flue at the stove and use a smoke machine to pump odorless smoke into the stove until you can either rule out a bad draft, or pin point a faulty weld. Take all the bricks out, vacuum everything out. Isn't there a home made way of magnafluxing as well to check for cracks?


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## cannon (Mar 25, 2015)

These stoves are designed to be air tight,but they are not. Firecat's website said if you smell a smokey smell you have a leak. Plenty of people on here have been trying to fix this smokey smell problem by putting a lot money into taller chimneys and better double wall pipe with no results. Some people say they have no problem with the smokey smell,but I bet that is because of where the stove is located. The smokey smell will collect near the ceiling,so if you have a single level home and the smell collects near the ceiling you probably won't smell it. With my set up in the basement all the heat rises along with the smokey smell up the stairwell into the kitchen and the smell can be quite brutal. The reason you have a smokey smell and can see no smoke is because the door gasket acts as a filter and only the smell gets through, that's why you have such a build up of creosote on the inside of your door gasket.If these stoves were airtight the only time you would see smoke or get a smokey smell would be when the stove lost the draft and the smoke would come back out through the air inlet.I have 29 ft of triple wall Duravent pipe and have no draft problem whatsoever but have the smokey smell.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

cannon said:


> These stoves are designed to be air tight,but they are not. Firecat's website said if you smell a smokey smell you have a leak. Plenty of people on here have been trying to fix this smokey smell problem by putting a lot money into taller chimneys and better double wall pipe with no results. Some people say they have no problem with the smokey smell,but I bet that is because of where the stove is located. The smokey smell will collect near the ceiling,so if you have a single level home and the smell collects near the ceiling you probably won't smell it. With my set up in the basement all the heat rises along with the smokey smell up the stairwell into the kitchen and the smell can be quite brutal. The reason you have a smokey smell and can see no smoke is because the door gasket acts as a filter and only the smell gets through, that's why you have such a build up of creosote on the inside of your door gasket.If these stoves were airtight the only time you would see smoke or get a smokey smell would be when the stove lost the draft and the smoke would come back out through the air inlet.I have 29 ft of triple wall Duravent pipe and have no draft problem whatsoever but have the smokey smell.


The argument would be that you have too much chimney and your pipe is getting cold. The blame can always be put on draft because there's always a way for it to be faulty.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

cannon said:


> Here is a picture of what you are dealing with.Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a  leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.


Called and spoke to Chris about this today. You have shut your door too tight and smashed the gasket down too far. That's why this is happening. You have to get a new gasket and start all over. That's what I'm going to try to do.


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## shoot-straight (Mar 25, 2015)

i noticed that i would get a little smoke smell after a "gas explosion" in the firebox. you know, a POOF! of flame. do you get poofs of flame at times? the added positive pressure in the firebox will help force smoke out. dont forget about the hole in the top either..... one POOF! actually rattled my probe i think.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2015)

Standard back-puffing issue, common with certain woods (and sometimes higher MC%'s), in a very low air issue.

I'm noticing a lot of Ashford owners complaining about smoke smell the last two weeks.  Maybe the complaints have always been there, and I just wasn't watching for them before.  I have seen six different Ashford 30 owners (plus one Sirroco 30 owner) make this complaint in the last week or two alone.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/do-ashfords-have-a-smoke-smell-problem.142806/


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

UPDATE: Called Chris on my lunch today to follow up. He said that my chimney isn't high enough. I need to add another length of chimney up top to increase my draft. If I had adequate draft, smoke would not roll out of my stove when I opened the door. I am going to start saving for this improvement. 

We also spoke in length about the differences in opinions on this site. Whereas, everyone's advice is appreciated, what works for one won't necessarily work for another. 

I'm at a disadvantage with regard to draft because I'm 1. In a mild climate, 2. My chimney is on the short end of acceptable, 3. I have 2 45s, and 4. My wood is not <13%. 

I've never had a stove this efficient thus I've never learned to troubleshoot to this extent. Trying to stay positive and hopeful...


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## BKVP (Mar 25, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Can both of the chimneys on these problem stoves be eliminated as the cause of smoke spillage? Don't they both meet the minimum and the recommended chimney specs from BK?
> 
> The firebox should be airtight. These are welded steel stoves.
> 
> ...


 

Highbeam, "LOTS"? 
Respectfully, EVERY single manufacturer has issues from time to time with a FEW stoves.  We work with the folks to get them resolved.  There are thousands of these models in the field and two or three posters have had this issue.  Truth be told, others call here and we work with them to solve the issues.

I spoke with Calentarse this morning.  Great guy, understanding.  If he has some smoke roll out and smoke smell, something is not correct.  Today he said he has a 13' total chimney length and we recommend 15' minimum.  So we (he and I) will get this licked.  He also has some offsets in the chimney that complicate draft in higher efficient appliances.

As for MotorsargeT the 90 degree will always cause some issues.  Also, how far is the rise before the 90 degree? These are influencing factors on efficient stove performance/draft.  Keep this all in perspective and we always help the customer.  That is why I am on this site!


----------



## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

Joful said:


> Standard back-puffing issue, common with certain woods (and sometimes higher MC%'s), in a very low air issue.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of Ashford owners complaining about smoke smell the last two weeks.  Maybe the complaints have always been there, and I just wasn't watching for them before.  I have seen six different Ashford 30 owners (plus one Sirroco 30 owner) make this complaint in the last week or two alone.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/do-ashfords-have-a-smoke-smell-problem.142806/





shoot-straight said:


> i noticed that i would get a little smoke smell after a "gas explosion" in the firebox. you know, a POOF! of flame. do you get poofs of flame at times? the added positive pressure in the firebox will help force smoke out. dont forget about the hole in the top either..... one POOF! actually rattled my probe i think.


Yes, my stove back puffs and yes, I smell the smoke when this happens to a greater extent. Yet, I smell smoke during normal operation so this hasn't been a concern of mine...this also speaks to my low draft and hopefully when more pipe is added this will be another thing of the past!


----------



## alforit (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> I have an exterior chimney with a thimble.  It has 20 feet of class A with 3 feet of double wall inside the house.   It has a T on the outside and a 90 degree in the house to penetrate the wall.  I installed the stove (I removed the smoke dragon and replaced with this) so no installer to call.  I could replace the gasket but am going to wait until I get the new double wall with 45's in.  If it stays cold enough.  If it doesn't I guess I'll be waiting until the fall.




Your main issue seems obvious first of all.
If you are getting soot build up on the outside edge of your gasket then you definitely have a leak there and it needs to be replaced or the door adjusted.

I am curious to know how you sealed your flu pipe and joints ? and what did you use?

Start a new thread though....So it doesn't hijack anymore on Calentarse


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## shoot-straight (Mar 25, 2015)

Joful said:


> Standard back-puffing issue, common with certain woods (and sometimes higher MC%'s), in a very low air issue.
> 
> I'm noticing a lot of Ashford owners complaining about smoke smell the last two weeks.  Maybe the complaints have always been there, and I just wasn't watching for them before.  I have seen six different Ashford 30 owners (plus one Sirroco 30 owner) make this complaint in the last week or two alone.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/do-ashfords-have-a-smoke-smell-problem.142806/



please take me off your list of "owners complaining of smoke smell". i am not complaining. it hasnt been much of a bother to this point and points to poor draft


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

BKP said:


> Highbeam, "LOTS"?
> Respectfully, EVERY single manufacturer has issues from time to time with a FEW stoves.  We work with the folks to get them resolved.  There are thousands of these models in the field and two or three posters have had this issue.  Truth be told, others call here and we work with them to solve the issues.
> 
> I spoke with Calentarse this morning.  Great guy, understanding.  If he has some smoke roll out and smoke smell, something is not correct.  Today he said he has a 13' total chimney length and we recommend 15' minimum.  So we (he and I) will get this licked.  He also has some offsets in the chimney that complicate draft in higher efficient appliances.
> ...


I have 33 inches before the 90.  With the 2 x 45's I have coming it will be a bit less than that but I hope losing the 90 will help.  And BKVP,  I love the stove.  It does exactly what I wanted it to do other than this.  Long burns, doesn't burn you out of the room.  It just stinks like smoke. 

 3 weeks ago I removed the lower clean out on the T to clean the chimney with my sooteater.  I went to cover the bottom with a plastic bag to catch whatever I got and the draft (stove burned out for 2 days, no coals at all) on a 45 degree day sucked the bag all the way to the cap.  I had to get on the snow covered roof to retrieve it.  I have a hard time believing its draft related but I am working to make it as perfect as possible.


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

alforit said:


> Your main issue seems obvious first of all.
> If you are getting soot build up on the outside edge of your gasket then you definitely have a leak there and it needs to be replaced or the door adjusted.
> 
> I am curious to know how you sealed your flu pipe and joints ? and what did you use?
> ...


I am going to replace the gasket also.  It just stinks that I am putting a gasket In a brand new stove when it did it from day 1.  I used a meeco product that you had mentioned in one of these threads to seal every joint except the slip in my double wall and I took each section of chimney apart and used the same to seal the joints there also.


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## drz1050 (Mar 25, 2015)

cannon said:


> Here is a picture of what you are dealing with.Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a  leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.



Is this the door on the Sirocco 30 or the Ashford 30? Or are they the same design? I know the firebox is the same.. not sure if that includes the door. 
Does the Princess have the same setup?

That is not an impressive design in the slightest.... any sealing surface needs to be as smooth as possible. If the fasteners absolutely need to be there, there are other lower-profile options available.


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## Charles1981 (Mar 25, 2015)

If this were back puffing would there not be accumulation of wood gases with subsequent combustion in the fire box? Back puffing when it occurs in my VC is VERY evident. The flame goes out, there is a pause of 20-30 seconds, then a large woosh of flames dancing around. Only in a few rare situations usually in the shoulder season with high windy days does the backpuff however cause enough force to cause smoke to escape the top loader or the air intake.

Seems like if his ashford was backpuffing it would be pretty evident.


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## pdxdave (Mar 25, 2015)

Taking all of the different setups and modifications into account I still can't see how this can be purely a draft issue. Perhaps if the draft is ramped up enough it will eventually overcome whatever defect is allowing this to happen, but I just don't buy that this is 'normal' in any way.

I have a 15' single wall in exterior masonry chimney, in a mild climate, and both stoves I've run up this chimney have had zero issues with smoke leakage. The non-cat insert I had before was vented straight up, and I'd almost have to whip the door open just to get smoke spillage, and the cat stove I'm running now runs 2' horizontal out the back, into a 90 then up the 15' from there. It's 50 outside right now and I'm running low cat burn at 370F with zero smoke inside or outside of the house, the way it should be. My setup now also has seams between the back of the stove and the 15' vertical run, none of which are sealed beyond how the pipe fits together.


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## webby3650 (Mar 25, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> Taking all of the different setups and modifications into account I still can't see how this can be purely a draft issue. Perhaps if the draft is ramped up enough it will eventually overcome whatever defect is allowing this to happen, but I just don't buy that this is 'normal' in any way.
> 
> I have a 15' single wall in exterior masonry chimney, in a mild climate, and both stoves I've run up this chimney have had zero issues with smoke leakage. The non-cat insert I had before was vented straight up, and I'd almost have to whip the door open just to get smoke spillage, and the cat stove I'm running now runs 2' horizontal out the back, into a 90 then up the 15' from there. It's 50 outside right now and I'm running low cat burn at 370F with zero smoke inside or outside of the house, the way it should be. My setup now also has seams between the back of the stove and the 15' vertical run, none of which are sealed beyond how the pipe fits together.


What you are describing is exactly what BKVP said. Every set up is different. What works good in your house may not in another.


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## alforit (Mar 25, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> Taking all of the different setups and modifications into account I still can't see how this can be purely a draft issue. Perhaps if the draft is ramped up enough it will eventually overcome whatever defect is allowing this to happen, but I just don't buy that this is 'normal' in any way.
> 
> I have a 15' single wall in exterior masonry chimney, in a mild climate, and both stoves I've run up this chimney have had zero issues with smoke leakage. The non-cat insert I had before was vented straight up, and I'd almost have to whip the door open just to get smoke spillage, and the cat stove I'm running now runs 2' horizontal out the back, into a 90 then up the 15' from there. It's 50 outside right now and I'm running low cat burn at 370F with zero smoke inside or outside of the house, the way it should be. My setup now also has seams between the back of the stove and the 15' vertical run, none of which are sealed beyond how the pipe fits together.



You're trying to compare your non-cat stove and your current stove to a BK ....it is not.

Different animal.


----------



## pdxdave (Mar 25, 2015)

alforit said:


> You're trying to compare your non-cat stove and your current stove to a BK ....it is not.
> 
> Different animal.



I wouldn't put it quite that way... I'm trying to compare my 'marginal' draft setup with the 'marginal' draft setups that are having these issues with the BK. Now we all know the BK is a different animal when it comes to performance in some ways, but it shouldn't be a different animal when it comes to setup and smoke/safety. What I mean is, the BK manual apparently calls for 15' - this is essentially what every other modern stove calls for. So if it's a 'different animal' in this regard too, which from quite a number of owners with issues here seem to indicate, then someone from BK needs to come right out and say it, and say what exactly it means, instead of running these poor guys in circles spending 100's or 1000's of dollars chasing this ghost. If it needs a 30' chimney, then it should say you need a 30'. If it can't hold the smoke in a mild climate with softwoods, then it should say so. Not this business of throwing gobs of $$$ and time at it all the while making it an owner/operator issue.


----------



## Highbeam (Mar 25, 2015)

BKVP said:


> Highbeam, "LOTS"?
> Respectfully, EVERY single manufacturer has issues from time to time with a FEW stoves.  We work with the folks to get them resolved.  There are thousands of these models in the field and two or three posters have had this issue.  Truth be told, others call here and we work with them to solve the issues.
> 
> I spoke with Calentarse this morning.  Great guy, understanding.  If he has some smoke roll out and smoke smell, something is not correct.  Today he said he has a 13' total chimney length and we recommend 15' minimum.  So we (he and I) will get this licked.  He also has some offsets in the chimney that complicate draft in higher efficient appliances.
> ...



Yes, lots. If you do a search on this site for an ashford today because maybe you want to buy one then you will certainly run into unresolved smoke issues. In time those reports will be buried or resolved but right now, bad PR. Best thing that a BK rep could do is to stay involved, resolve, or provide some sort of public reassurance that despite these limited problems that the stove is a good buy. 

Lets turn some of these "smokey ashford" stories into "fixed my smokey ashford" stories.


----------



## alforit (Mar 25, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> I wouldn't put it quite that way... I'm trying to compare my 'marginal' draft setup with the 'marginal' draft setups that are having these issues with the BK. Now we all know the BK is a different animal when it comes to performance in some ways, but it shouldn't be a different animal when it comes to setup and smoke/safety. What I mean is, the BK manual apparently calls for 15' - this is essentially what every other modern stove calls for. So if it's a 'different animal' in this regard too, which from quite a number of owners with issues here seem to indicate, then someone from BK needs to come right out and say it, and say what exactly it means, instead of running these poor guys in circles spending 100's or 1000's of dollars chasing this ghost. If it needs a 30' chimney, then it should say you need a 30'. If it can't hold the smoke in a mild climate with softwoods, then it should say so. Not this business of throwing gobs of $$$ and time at it all the while making it an owner/operator issue.




I can only speak from my own experience. But I think the BK has a tendency toward this smoke smell in certain situations. I'm not sure if it is in the minority or if it's the norm. But in my experience I saw it as the norm.

Only BK knows what the broad picture is of this issue. But in my case it I was able to solve it.
The performance of the stove is so great that I was willing to take that risk .

I think this issue is solvable and it will be solved.


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

alforit said:


> I can only speak from my own experience. But I think the BK has a tendency toward this smoke smell in certain situations. I'm not sure if it is in the minority or if it's the norm. But in my experience I saw it as the norm.
> 
> Only BK knows what the broad picture is of this issue. But in my case it I was able to solve it.
> The performance of the stove is so great that I was willing to take that risk .
> ...



I love the stove.  It is such an improvement over my old stove.  I grew up burning in an 80's vintage vermont castings vigilant and then a hearthstone phoenix later.  When I bought my house I had to have a wood stove.  The house came with a salvo machine citation wood/coal stove.  It was old and when I put an addition over the stove room I found the chimney was trashed.  I tore it down and installed a brand new class a chimney and planned on a new stove.  The sirroco is what I bought and I want to make it work.  when it is 50 out (like today) and I can run it with no visible emissions and a temp of 350 on the stovetop it is exactly what I was looking for, my house just smells like smoke. I am willing to spend the money and time but I am running out of ideas and options on what it will take to fix it.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> I love the stove.  It is such an improvement over my old stove.  I grew up burning in an 80's vintage vermont castings vigilant and then a hearthstone phoenix later.  When I bought my house I had to have a wood stove.  The house came with a salvo machine citation wood/coal stove.  It was old and when I put an addition over the stove room I found the chimney was trashed.  I tore it down and installed a brand new class a chimney and planned on a new stove.  The sirroco is what I bought and I want to make it work.  when it is 50 out (like today) and I can run it with no visible emissions and a temp of 350 on the stovetop it is exactly what I was looking for, my house just smells like smoke. I am willing to spend the money and time but I am running out of ideas and options on what it will take to fix it.


If you run a hotter fire the problem(smell) is gone?


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

HotCoals said:


> If you run a hotter fire the problem(smell) is gone?


No. It is less but It is still there.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2015)

shoot-straight said:


> please take me off your list of "owners complaining of smoke smell". i am not complaining. it hasnt been much of a bother to this point and points to poor draft


Give me a break.  Would you like me to change it to, "shoot-straight claims his stove makes his house smell of smoke, but he's not complaining about it"?  



motorsargeT said:


> No. It is less but It is still there.


Let me phrase HotCoals question a different way:  When you run hotter does it stop producing new smoke smell?  Sure, the house still stinks of stale smoke.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> No. It is less but It is still there.



You could try running with the cap/screen off for chits and giggles.
A gasket leak at the door will cause a fire to burn hotter no doubt but it should not leak smoke into the room.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

Have you guys tried putting a flame or incense around the areas of the suspect gasket?


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

Charles1981 said:


> If this were back puffing would there not be accumulation of wood gases with subsequent combustion in the fire box? Back puffing when it occurs in my VC is VERY evident. The flame goes out, there is a pause of 20-30 seconds, then a large woosh of flames dancing around. Only in a few rare situations usually in the shoulder season with high windy days does the backpuff however cause enough force to cause smoke to escape the top loader or the air intake.
> 
> Seems like if his ashford was backpuffing it would be pretty evident.


It's nowhere near as violent in the BK as in my old 2n1. It's light and normally short lived, only happening once or twice before the stat responds? or is somehow otherwise alleviated...


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## shoot-straight (Mar 25, 2015)

Joful said:


> Give me a break.  Would you like me to change it to, "shoot-straight claims his stove makes his house smell of smoke, but he's not complaining about it"?
> 
> 
> Let me phrase HotCoals question a different way:  When you run hotter does it stop producing new smoke smell?  Sure, the house still stinks of stale smoke.



No, I asked nicely just for you to remove me. Simply beacuse i dont want you speaking for me. That's it.


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

post: 1927037 said:
			
		

> Give me a break.  Would you like me to change it to, "shoot-straight claims his stove makes his house smell of smoke, but he's not complaining about it"?
> 
> 
> Let me phrase HotCoals question a different way:  When you run hotter does it stop producing new smoke smell?  Sure, the house still stinks of stale smoke.


It still produces new smell.  Put your nose at the top left of the door and it will vary with the stat operation.  I have no screen on my cap.  I guess i couod pull it off for a test but we are supposed to get rain for the next few days.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> Taking all of the different setups and modifications into account I still can't see how this can be purely a draft issue. Perhaps if the draft is ramped up enough it will eventually overcome whatever defect is allowing this to happen, but I just don't buy that this is 'normal' in any way.
> 
> I have a 15' single wall in exterior masonry chimney, in a mild climate, and both stoves I've run up this chimney have had zero issues with smoke leakage. The non-cat insert I had before was vented straight up, and I'd almost have to whip the door open just to get smoke spillage, and the cat stove I'm running now runs 2' horizontal out the back, into a 90 then up the 15' from there. It's 50 outside right now and I'm running low cat burn at 370F with zero smoke inside or outside of the house, the way it should be. My setup now also has seams between the back of the stove and the 15' vertical run, none of which are sealed beyond how the pipe fits together.


I tend to agree with you. It just doesn't make sense. Yet, I bet if you had an Ashford, for some reason, you wouldn't have these issues. And I bet if I had your ideal steel, I'd smell smoke. I don't personally agree with needing to increase my draft further and it's unfortunate I must continue to put money into this set up, but the fact of the matter is that I don't have the recommended chimney height (even though my chimney guy says the manual says that measurement is from the floor). I bought the stove without considering these things could happen and now I have to sleep in the bed I've made.


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

HotCoals said:


> Have you guys tried putting a flame or incense around the areas of the suspect gasket?


I burnt a real strong candle in it and couldn't definitively say I could smell it coming out of anywhere...


----------



## alforit (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> I love the stove.  It is such an improvement over my old stove.  I grew up burning in an 80's vintage vermont castings vigilant and then a hearthstone phoenix later.  When I bought my house I had to have a wood stove.  The house came with a salvo machine citation wood/coal stove.  It was old and when I put an addition over the stove room I found the chimney was trashed.  I tore it down and installed a brand new class a chimney and planned on a new stove.  The sirroco is what I bought and I want to make it work.  when it is 50 out (like today) and I can run it with no visible emissions and a temp of 350 on the stovetop it is exactly what I was looking for, my house just smells like smoke. I am willing to spend the money and time but I am running out of ideas and options on what it will take to fix it.



Glad you like the stove........I think its fantastic. It does everything so well except this issue.


Calentarse said:


> I tend to agree with you. It just doesn't make sense. Yet, I bet if you had an Ashford, for some reason, you wouldn't have these issues. And I bet if I had your ideal steel, I'd smell smoke. I don't personally agree with needing to increase my draft further and it's unfortunate I must continue to put money into this set up, but the fact of the matter is that I don't have the recommended chimney height (even though my chimney guy says the manual says that measurement is from the floor). I bought the stove without considering these things could happen and now I have to sleep in the bed I've made.




Ha Ha..........I made that same blunder too when I first got a wood burning stove . About measuring chimney height from the ground up....My chimney was technically only 13 feet high. ..........Then after I added 4 more feet to it , it made all the difference. It was worth it .

Since your setup has this smoke smell tendency like mine did , then the best place to start is the chimney height . One step at a time.............................


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## pdxdave (Mar 25, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> I tend to agree with you. It just doesn't make sense. Yet, I bet if you had an Ashford, for some reason, you wouldn't have these issues. And I bet if I had your ideal steel, I'd smell smoke. I don't personally agree with needing to increase my draft further and it's unfortunate I must continue to put money into this set up, but the fact of the matter is that I don't have the recommended chimney height (even though my chimney guy says the manual says that measurement is from the floor). I bought the stove without considering these things could happen and now I have to sleep in the bed I've made.



That's odd, I just checked and the manual states 12 feet from the flue collar (roughly 14-15' total from stove floor), which is pretty much the 'industry standard' flue requirement.


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## pdxdave (Mar 25, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> Yet, I bet if you had an Ashford, for some reason, you wouldn't have these issues. And I bet if I had your ideal steel, I'd smell smoke.


I really doubt this. I've had 2 stoves on my chimney, neither let smoke in the house. You've had 2 stoves on your chimney, only 1 let smoke in the house. Statistically this points very strongly towards the stove itself.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> I burnt a real strong candle in it and couldn't definitively say I could smell it coming out of anywhere...


Well I meant to hold the flame or incense on the out side of the door while in low burn to see if the flame/smoke gets pulled into the stove or if the flame/smoke gets pushed away .


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

ote="HotCoals, post: 1927094, member: 15161"]Well I meant to hold the flame or incense on the out side of the door while in low burn to see if the flame/smoke gets pulled into the stove or if the flame/smoke gets pushed away .[/quote]
I'll try tonight.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2015)

shoot-straight said:


> No, I asked nicely just for you to remove me. Simply beacuse i dont want you speaking for me. That's it.


Wasn't speaking for you.  You're always welcome to speak for yourself.  Just citing you as one of several who have claimed their Ashford 30 makes their house smell of smoke.  I was referring to these two statements:



shoot-straight said:


> Well, my ashford started acting sluggish. Got some smoke smell too!





shoot-straight said:


> i noticed that i would get a little smoke smell after a "gas explosion" in the firebox. you know, a POOF! of flame.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> ote="HotCoals, post: 1927094, member: 15161"]Well I meant to hold the flame or incense on the out side of the door while in low burn to see if the flame/smoke gets pulled into the stove or if the flame/smoke gets pushed away .


I'll try tonight.[/quote]
Yeah..experiment doing that around the door..seams on the pipes..things like that and get back to us.
BTW you don't have to have a cap on top of the flue..rain won't hurt but codes may call for cap/screen.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

Well rain could hurt..I meant just for a day or 3.


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## Charles1981 (Mar 25, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> It's nowhere near as violent in the BK as in my old 2n1. It's light and normally short lived, only happening once or twice before the stat responds? or is somehow otherwise alleviated...



H rmm. How often is this happening? Because backpuffing will blow smoke in your house for sure. Suggests poor draft still or wet wood.....


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## Calentarse (Mar 25, 2015)

Charles1981 said:


> H rmm. How often is this happening? Because backpuffing will blow smoke in your house for sure. Suggests poor draft still or wet wood.....


Only on occasion, not reliably at all. Maybe 4-6 times where I've actually watched it do it. Flames lightly appear, disappear, reappear, not even really sure it's a backpuff. It's just that they're filling the whole firebox and then they completely disappear. Nothing like the explosions I used to get before which were clearly back puffs.

Definitely not wet wood, at least not the main reason, as most of my wood is dry. Nothing is above 20% MC, most is pine and well below that, and I still get puffing and smoke. Never a stalled cat though...


----------



## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> most is pine and well below that, and I still get puffing and smoke. Never a stalled cat though...


You know you might have to try burning with just a little air ..enough air to have some constant flame just to see if things clear up. If all is ok doing that it would tell us something.


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## Ashful (Mar 25, 2015)

When I read stories of smoke smell on cat stoves, I immediately think "back-puff" as well.  I had some of that trouble before I lined the shorter of my two chimneys.  However, since you're experiencing the same smell at at higher burn settings, then it is very unlikely that it is back-puffing.

_edit:  Disregard.  I was thinking of Parallax and motorsargeT, who both reported having the same smoke smell at all burn settings._


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## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

I've never gotten a backpuff with mine.  What I will sometimes get are ghost flames traveling back from the cat into the fire box but that is not relevant to the smell.  It does not change it at all.  With the old vermont castings I could get that to backpuff and it was ugly.  Definitely not the same thing.  

Tonight I do not have a lot of smell.  It is there but not bad.  If I wasnt sticking my nose in the corner I can barely pick it out in the house.  Candle test was a failure also.  I could not detect anything changing in the flame.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> Candle test was a failure also. I could not detect anything changing in the flame.


Can't be too much of a leak then.


----------



## motorsargeT (Mar 25, 2015)

remember "HotCoals said:


> Can't be too much of a leak then.


I dont think it is.  Just enough to make a smell.  I looked in a completely dark room with a flashlight and couldnt see any smoke either.  I am hoping eliminating the 90 degree in my dsp and replacing the door gasket fixes this.  I am holding judgement until then.  And if that doesnt work on to the next step.


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## HotCoals (Mar 25, 2015)

motorsargeT said:


> I am hoping eliminating the 90 degree in my dsp a


That should help the draft some .


----------



## alforit (Mar 26, 2015)

HotCoals said:


> That should help the draft some .



+1


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## Calentarse (Mar 26, 2015)

HotCoals said:


> You know you might have to try burning with just a little air ..enough air to have some constant flame just to see if things clear up. If all is ok doing that it would tell us something.


For you and Joful, I get the smell at all burn rates. Just not as bad at the higher rates. Called my chimney guy last night; he's going to stop back by and measure again and have a look once again at the manual and see what is recommended and compare it to what I have.We're gonna potentially try extending my chimney temporarily with some double wall and hope I see improvement.


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## Ashful (Mar 26, 2015)

I have read that manual, and I don't think there is any guideline offered on chimney height.  They specify by draft, measured by inches of water column.

This is actually a good way to go, for BK, as too many factors can affect draft on the same height chimney.  Specifying draft in WC is really the proper way to go.  However, I do have two problems with how it's specified in their manual:

1.  The range seems very tight.  In another thread, users who actually have manometers on their setup report that their manometer will vary 0.2 just with a change in wind speed, and BK's specified range is about 10x tighter than that.

2.  They should still offer some rough guidelines on chimney height.  It could be very non-committal, but just something of the order, "chimneys with height between x and y most often provide the required draft, weather and location permitting."


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## Calentarse (Mar 26, 2015)

Joful said:


> I have read that manual, and I don't think there is any guideline offered on chimney height.  They specify by draft, measured by inches of water column.
> 
> This is actually a good way to go, for BK, as too many factors can affect draft on the same height chimney.  Specifying draft in WC is really the proper way to go.  However, I do have two problems with how it's specified in their manual:
> 
> ...


Oh really? I haven't actually looked at that part of it. Thought my previous chimney would work just fine as I thought I read somewhere before buying the stove that 12' was the minimum. 

Day before yesterday when I had the DW put in, I handed it to my chimney guy and trusted him, but when I get home today I'll be looking for myself.

Regardless, I don't have adequate draft, have a smell in the house and need to add more pipe (will also need to be braced as any more pipe will take me into towering, unstable heights otherwise).


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## Ashful (Mar 26, 2015)

In the drawing showing the minimum chimney clearances to ridge, etc., they do have a note, "Use a minimum total system height of 12 feet, measured from the stove fl ue collar to the top of the chimney, not including the chimney cap."

In the actual specifications, they just state "recommended draft = 0.05" WC (on high)".

On p.13 they elaborate, "Recommended draft is .05 in. w.c. operated on high. Too little draft results in a sluggish fi re and smoke spillage into the room when the stove door is opened. Too much draft (over 0.06 in. w.c.) makes it unsafe to operate the stove and will void manufacturers warranty."

This was discussed recently in another thread, re. 0.01" WC variation between recommended and voiding warranty, the claim being no residential chimney on earth can adhere to a 0.01" WC tolerance window.  I really know very little about what is practical, just repeating what several folks with manometers on their chimney were actually reporting.  Hopefully someone can offer us some more education on this.


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## Highbeam (Mar 26, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> Only on occasion, not reliably at all. Maybe 4-6 times where I've actually watched it do it. *Flames lightly appear, disappear, reappear, not even really sure it's a backpuff. It's just that they're filling the whole firebox and then they completely disappear.* Nothing like the explosions I used to get before which were clearly back puffs.



That is normal for me too. It usually happens when the fire I ripping along and then you set the stat to your cruise setting. The fuel load is offgassing too fast creating a fuel rich environment in the firebox until enough oxygen accumulates and then it burns. I suppose you could call it a puff. It's very controlled and slow though, more like a cascade of fire and then blackness and then a cascade of fire. It only lasts a little while like 30 seconds. Stove pipe is making noise from the heat cycles and the cat is glowing while trying to eat all the fuel.


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## rideau (Mar 26, 2015)

Calentarse, you list issue (4) as wood is not below 13%.  Surely they don't expect you to burn wood below 13%?  Few if any  of us would pass that test.


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## Calentarse (Mar 26, 2015)

rideau said:


> Calentarse, you list issue (4) as wood is not below 13%.  Surely they don't expect you to burn wood below 13%?  Few if any  of us would pass that test.


Read that somewhere, yes. BK recommends it, I believe in the manual. However, BKVP has stated somewhere here on the forum <20% should be fine. Again, subjective.

And really, It doesn't matter. My wood is plenty dry and I have still have the issue. It's just potentially a contributing factor when I'm burning my more dense wood that isn't quite as dry as they recommend: >13% but <20%.

My fear is that after adding more pipe to the house, I'm going to continue to fight lack of draft. I'm going to end up putting $1000 into upgrading my chimney by the end of all this only to be told that I still don't have adequate draft. At that point, I'm going to be stuck with an unnecessarily tall chimney, looking like the neighborhood idiot trying to make the impossible, work. I'll need to consider selling the stove and putting in something non-cat that can work for me. 

I tend to be a pessimist though and fingers crossed this extension of chimney height solves my problems. I've seen evidence on the forum of both scenarios so I'm holding out hope!


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## DougA (Mar 26, 2015)

I used to have backpuffing with my VC. It's definitely a small explosion with a boom, then smoke being forced out of any crack or crevice that you didn't know existed.  It's caused by the fire being starved of oxygen.  Turning the air control down will contribute to the cause for sure. It used to be a real problem for me because it happened at the upper end of the temperature range and either I had to endure the smoke or allow an overfire. At that time, I did not know about opening the door fully and let the fire roar away. That appears to be an inferno but actually significantly lowers the stove pipe temps.  Still, not fun to deal with.


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## Ashful (Mar 26, 2015)

DougA said:


> I used to have backpuffing with my VC. It's definitely a small explosion with a boom, then smoke being forced out of any crack or crevice that you didn't know existed.


Back puffs can be violent enough to wrinkle your liner, or subtle enough to be completely undetected.  The come-and-go dance of flame show in any cat stove is just that, a firebox hovering right on the edge.  Like a lossy oscillator, for the engineering-minded.

I do suspect the majority of "my cat stove smells on low burn" issues are subtle back puffing, just not recognized as such.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 26, 2015)

cannon said:


> Underneath the door gasket are the studs and nuts that hold the glass and glass gasket in place. The door gasket is a high density gasket and lays on top of the studs and nuts. Since the door gasket is high density it does not conform down around the studs and nuts but lays on top of the studs and nuts. So the gasket does not get a complete seal against the door.That's the first leak. When the door is closed against the stove,the door gasket comes in contact with the flange on the stove which is supposed to seal any smoke from getting out or any air getting in.But what happens when you close the door and latch it against the stove, the flange on the stove is centered over the studs and nuts on the door. If you removed the door gasket and put the door back on the stove and closed it,you would see that there is little room between the studs and nuts and the flange on the stove. Almost no room for a gasket. So when the door is closed with the gasket in place, the flange on the stove pushes against the studs and nuts and flexes the the door enough that it pushes the glass retaining bracket and works the glass loose and causes another place for a  leak.Blaze King ground the the top of the studs off on my last door to help get a better seal but it didn't help.What they need to do is redesign the door so the studs and nuts are not under the door gasket.





Highbeam said:


> Manually welding those studs onto the door allows quite a variability in ultimate stud length. Many welds on the BK look robotically welded, are the studs robo welded? I have the same studs sticking into my princess gasket and one of them even has a loose nut!


What the...?? 


begreen said:


> The glass retainers on our stove are out of the way of the gasket path. This was the same on our F400.


Same on the stoves I've seen. I'm no rocket scientist, but that makes a lot more sense to me. I can't say for sure that that's the problem but it seems like a possibility. If that's the case, all they have to do is re-design the door and send everyone a new door, no charge.    Me, I'm a tinkerer so if I had a BK and determined that was the problem, I might just keep it and figure out a way to back-engineer it. I might grind down the studs and grind the nuts to half thickness (or see if I could find new thinner nuts at the hardware store.) Then I might use silicone on the door gasket so I could seal the gasket better where it passes over the studs/nuts.  I understand that not many would be willing or able to do that, though, and it's unfortunate that they are having problems. Smoke smell in the house, however slight, is a no-go here.


motorsargeT said:


> I am willing to spend the money and time but I am running out of ideas and options on what it will take to fix it.


I see what you mean about the hinge side; Glass is dirtier and the gasket is stained there, indicating an air leak. The tighter you get the stove, the better the apparent draft and the less likely leakage is. Now if you want a sure fix and, as you say, are willing to spend the money.....


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## webby3650 (Mar 26, 2015)

I cannot feel the studs through my gasket anywhere. It's 2 seasons old. Through the gasket, you can't even feel where they are. I find it hard to believe it causing issues, but then again I don't have any smells either..


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## alforit (Mar 26, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> Read that somewhere, yes. BK recommends it, I believe in the manual. However, BKVP has stated somewhere here on the forum <20% should be fine. Again, subjective.
> 
> And really, It doesn't matter. My wood is plenty dry and I have still have the issue. It's just potentially a contributing factor when I'm burning my more dense wood that isn't quite as dry as they recommend: >13% but <20%.
> 
> ...




$1000 ?? .........What kind and how much chimney pipe do you need ?   heh heh

I added a four foot section of duravent for $120.    I am guessing you only need about that much for your height.?


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## Woody Stover (Mar 26, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> something non-cat that can work for me.


Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. There _are_ some cat stoves out there that breathe easy.


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## Calentarse (Mar 26, 2015)

alforit said:


> $1000 ?? .........What kind and how much chimney pipe do you need ?   heh heh
> 
> I added a four foot section of duravent for $120.    I am guessing you only need about that much for your height.?


I don't do the work myself, therefore, I pay labor. Had double wall Olympia Ventis put in my house replacing my single wall. That got me half way to $1000 and didn't resolve it. If I do SuperVent, the brand of my chimney, plus labor and the support system I'm sure I'll be getting close.


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## Calentarse (Mar 26, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I cannot feel the studs through my gasket anywhere. It's 2 seasons old. Through the gasket, you can't even feel where they are. I find it hard to believe it causing issues, but then again I don't have any smells either..


I don't feel mine either and I'm thinking if the gasket were smashed down enough to cause a leak I'd be able to find them...


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## webby3650 (Mar 26, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> I don't feel mine either and I'm thinking if the gasket were smashed down enough to cause a leak I'd be able to find them...


I've never heard you mention a dealer. Have they been involved?
We would be switching that stove out for one that fits your needs and works in your house.


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## Charles1981 (Mar 26, 2015)

yea thus far as i remember your dealer was really helpful with the VC.

Maybe its time to move away from a catalytic stove unfortunately.


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## Calentarse (Mar 26, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I've never heard you mention a dealer. Have they been involved?
> We would be switching that stove out for one that fits your needs and works in your house.


They only were a replacement dealer for me for the warranty claim on the old VC as the other stopped dealing with VC. They worked with me to replace the VC warrantied stove with a BK. They weren't happy about it nor do they know anything about BKs.


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## blueguy (Mar 28, 2015)

Did you try any of the gasket fixes on the hinge side of the door?


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## Calentarse (Mar 28, 2015)

blueguy said:


> Did you try any of the gasket fixes on the hinge side of the door?


No I haven't. Working with Chris now to find a solution. Will repost once I've gotten it squared away with him.


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## Calentarse (Dec 7, 2015)

So BKVP sent me a new gasket, cement and new, flatter hardware to replace the previous hardware holding the bracket in place around the outside of the glass. Neither of these items fixed my smoke smell issues. I have also put in double-wall ventis pipe (6' in the house replacing single wall) and repainted it all. No improvement. This was all completed at the end of the burning season in April.

At the beginning of the burning season this year, I noticed I still had the smoke smell issue. However, the smoke was now coming from the right hand side instead of the left. We had altered it! 

So, back at it. BKVP and I have been speaking and we have agreed that the next course of action is to extend the chimney. Today, my chimney guy came out. He completely cleaned out and inspected the stove; looked over all the welds; inspected every part of the stove; gave me four more feet and decided that the work I did in April was unsatisfactory. He removed the gasket and completely redid it with a gasket of his choosing. He believes that somehow gases/smoke were actually exiting the stove BEHIND the gasket because, as he removed it carefully, he inspected the back of it and noticed discoloration (brown, not black so it was not from the cement). He also indicated that since the smoke was on the outside of the gasket in these areas he wasn't certain that the smoke wasn't actually seeping through the gasket. My main question for an engineer: WHY IS SMOKE LEAKING OUT INSTEAD OF AIR LEAKING IN? 

Anyway. I have to wait for the cement to cure for 24 hours (chimney guy's rules). So, tomorrow night I will light the stove with a 17' chimney from the top of the flue collar and with a new gasket. After a couple fires, I will report on the issue. Thanks for everyone's patience and for all the suggestions. Most of all, thank you to BK for working with me on the issue. You guys are awesome!


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## Ashful (Dec 7, 2015)

I'll take a stab at the "why" question, and say generically that there must be positive (or at least neutral) pressure in the stove at some points in time, for smoke to leak out.  Is it possible you are experiencing back-puffing to such a small degree that you don't see and hear it, but it's still pushing smoke into the house?  Only time I've ever had smoke in the house was from a back-puff, and we all know cat stoves dialed way back low on a short chimney will tend to back-puff.


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## alforit (Dec 8, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> So BKVP sent me a new gasket, cement and new, flatter hardware to replace the previous hardware holding the bracket in place around the outside of the glass. Neither of these items fixed my smoke smell issues. I have also put in double-wall ventis pipe (6' in the house replacing single wall) and repainted it all. No improvement. This was all completed at the end of the burning season in April.
> 
> At the beginning of the burning season this year, I noticed I still had the smoke smell issue. However, the smoke was now coming from the right hand side instead of the left. We had altered it!
> 
> ...




The smoke smell is happening due to an inadequate draft......A good gasket helps a lot but cannot overcome an improper draft..,....The BK's are prone to it due to the low burn ability and need to have a minimum draft potential to run properly.......Did you extend your chimney ?  Or is 17 feet the height it originally was ?
Any elbows  ? If so , how many ?


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## blueguy (Dec 8, 2015)

Where was the discolouration under the gasket?


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## Calentarse (Dec 8, 2015)

blueguy said:


> Where was the discolouration under the gasket?


It was a brownish color.


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## Calentarse (Dec 8, 2015)

alforit said:


> The smoke smell is happening due to an inadequate draft......A good gasket helps a lot but cannot overcome an improper draft..,....The BK's are prone to it due to the low burn ability and need to have a minimum draft potential to run properly.......Did you extend your chimney ?  Or is 17 feet the height it originally was ?
> Any elbows  ? If so , how many ?


Yup, when I get home from work today I am firing it up and we will see. I had 13' from the top of the flue collar previously, all double wall with two 45s. Now, I still have everything but I added 4' to the top. It's 17' total now. It's towering off the top of my little house. If it works, I won't care. I need my wood heat!


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## Highbeam (Dec 8, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Only time I've ever had smoke in the house was from a back-puff, and we all know cat stoves dialed way back low on a short chimney will tend to back-puff.



This has not been my experience with the BK cat stove. No backpuff, sure sudden flamage but nothing that caused sound, vibration, or smoke in the house.



Calentarse said:


> I had 13' from the top of the flue collar previously, all double wall with two 45s. Now, I still have everything but I added 4' to the top. It's 17' total now. It's towering off the top of my little house.



Yikes, 13' minus the 3 feet for each bend (or whatever they say) means you never had enough chimney. My princess specified 12' and now BK requires 15' but I believe the 30 boxes always required 15' EVL. Which means that with your bends you are still a bit short.

Anxious to see how it goes. With that towering chimney did you need to install braces? Supposed to be installed at five feet above the roofline.


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## begreen (Dec 8, 2015)

The ~2-3 ft per elbow is for 90º bends. 45s on a vertical run have less effect. I am guessing maybe a foot or so based on our stove's performance. 17' of double-wall should perform well even with the offset. Hope this ends the smoke issue for you once and for all.


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## huauqui (Dec 8, 2015)

Calentarse,
I have been following this thread since it started earlier this year and I am excited to see if this fixes it.  I can't imagine how it must be for you waiting another 24 hours to see if everything is golden.  Hoping the best for you and a smoke smell free house.


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## Ashful (Dec 8, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> It was a brownish color.


Lol... like talking to my wife.

Q:  "Where did you park?"

A:  "My car is red."


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## Calentarse (Dec 8, 2015)

Ashful said:


> Lol... like talking to my wife.
> 
> Q:  "Where did you park?"
> 
> A:  "My car is red."


Haha so sorry. It was along the top right hand corner, where I was most recently experiencing the origin of the odor. It was on the underside of the gasket which was evident when he pulled it out of the bracket that holds it.


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## Calentarse (Dec 8, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> This has not been my experience with the BK cat stove. No backpuff, sure sudden flamage but nothing that caused sound, vibration, or smoke in the house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm anxious to see how it goes, too. It's in the interior envelope and I'm hoping that'll be a saving grace, otherwise, this stove has got to go! I can't keep doing this.

I did have to have braces. Came in at $500 for all that work last night which put me over $1000 in modifications to make this thing work in my home. Really hoping this works cause I can't afford anything else for a long while...


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## alforit (Dec 9, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> I'm anxious to see how it goes, too. It's in the interior envelope and I'm hoping that'll be a saving grace, otherwise, this stove has got to go! I can't keep doing this.
> 
> I did have to have braces. Came in at $500 for all that work last night which put me over $1000 in modifications to make this thing work in my home. Really hoping this works cause I can't afford anything else for a long while...



It definitely should improve It compared to what you had........I had a 13 foot chimney also when I first started burning.  It worked fine with my lennox non cat stove but , HELL NO, for the BK,    Heh.    .......After much trial and error I ended up with 16 feet straight shot up , and feel that is just at the minimum to make these BK's work properly.

You may ultimately have to extend further due to the elbows , but I am sure you will see an improvement from what you have done so far.......You can always burn with the stat turned up a  little higher to compensate for the lack of draft if needed...........I know its an investment extending the chimney , but these BK's need a stronger draft to work correctly and at their best............And in my opinion , Its worth it.


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## Calentarse (Dec 9, 2015)

alforit said:


> It definitely should improve It compared to what you had........I had a 13 foot chimney also when I first started burning.  It worked fine with my lennox non cat stove but , HELL NO, for the BK,    Heh.    .......After much trial and error I ended up with 16 feet straight shot up , and feel that is just at the minimum to make these BK's work properly.
> 
> You may ultimately have to extend further due to the elbows , but I am sure you will see an improvement from what you have done so far.......You can always burn with the stat turned up a  little higher to compensate for the lack of draft if needed...........I know its an investment extending the chimney , but these BK's need a stronger draft to work correctly and at their best............And in my opinion , Its worth it.


Alforit, I agree with you. The stove is definitely worth it; however, my house is only 1200 sq. ft. and I can't have the stove turned up at all. It'll overheat my house. I bought the stove because I needed low burn temps. It was notorious for that. So, I went online shopping using this site and the manual for the stove available on BKs website. The manual said that 12' above the flue collar was the minimum, and I deduced that'd it'd be fine with 13'. As we know, this ended up not being the case so I had to spend a lot of money to get this right.


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## Calentarse (Dec 9, 2015)

Hello everyone. Reporting after my first fire with 17' of pipe and I can say that you guys know what you're talking about! I don't want to celebrate prematurely, but I had a long fire yesterday, through the night, and it was of course lit this morning. No matter the temperature,* I COULD SMELL NOTHING. *Not in the house or directly above where the usual suspected places were. Mind you, I have a brand new gasket and this has happened before with a new gasket. So only time will tell...

I'm also delighted to report that the stove has way less smoke spillage. Some spilled out when the chimney was cold (at first lighting it, and my wood was solid oak so take this with a grain of salt, it's very hard to season and may have been on the moist side). Later in the evening I wanted to hot reload after having the stove turned up all afternoon and evening. I opened it up and got very little smoke spillage. 

Again, too early to get too excited. I'm going to be very disappointed if this hasn't worked but honestly will not be surprised if it didn't fix the issue. My gasket has been tightened and replaced before in the past and resulted in a couple non-malodorous burns only inevitably ended up being stinky once again. Here's to hoping! 
*
*


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## Squisher (Dec 9, 2015)

Sounds positive. I've read of your troubles and am sure hoping this has solved them for you.


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## DougA (Dec 9, 2015)

Glad to see that your initial trial with the extended chimney was positive. 

Good draft is a mysterious problem.  Even if you have the proper height, there are a lot of other factors that will influence draft such as the peak on your house, neighbor's houses, trees, nearby hills/valleys, etc.  We can't see how air is moving since it's invisible and it's pretty tough to set up smoke trails to watch what happens.  

Apart from physical problems, you have to contend with weather, inside/outside pressure, etc. There's no doubt that the biggest problems faced by wood stoves is bad wood and bad draft.

I had back draft problems for years, even after extending my chimney to well over the needed length. When I bought my new stove and moved it 20' from the old location, the poor draft problems disappeared like magic and I actually ran into overdraft problems.  That fix was much easier & cheaper by installing a separate damper in the pipe. I just got lucky, there is little else to explain the difference.

I think there should be a bold note on the BK review section that the stated chimney heights are optimistic and you may need to lengthen it considerably more for optimum performance.  It simply makes sense that a low, slow burn will require better draft.


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## Calentarse (Dec 9, 2015)

DougA said:


> Glad to see that your initial trial with the extended chimney was positive.
> 
> Good draft is a mysterious problem.  Even if you have the proper height, there are a lot of other factors that will influence draft such as the peak on your house, neighbor's houses, trees, nearby hills/valleys, etc.  We can't see how air is moving since it's invisible and it's pretty tough to set up smoke trails to watch what happens.
> 
> ...


I agree that BK should warn people, and evidently now their manual is different, indicating that 15' is the minimum. That's just not what it said when I bought it, that's why I was so surprised to hear that I had to spend $1000 to get it right. And it has caused some problems at home now too since my wife HATES all the money I've spent on the thing. She also hates the soaring pipe with the brackets on it too. But I'm not alone in the WAF war now am I. Us guys have to fight for what we want!


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## Squisher (Dec 9, 2015)

My wife wouldn't care what it looked like or what it cost just as long as it produced heat!


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## Calentarse (Dec 9, 2015)

Well you liv


Squisher said:


> My wife wouldn't care what it looked like or what it cost just as long as it produced heat!


Well you live in British Columbia so I'm assuming that has an effect on opinions. I think if I had to deal with even half the cold you do my wife and I would feel similarly!


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## DougA (Dec 9, 2015)

Hopefully she will feel better when your heating bills go down.  I have spent a TON in the last year with a new stove, new chimney, new wood sheds, etc. It does hurt but when it's spread over the life of the stove, it is super cheap.  Our old stove lasted 30 years and I sold it for just under the $$ I paid for it 30 yrs earlier.  Soooo .. .tell your wife that a wood stove is a long term relationship, just like a marriage. Then buy her some good wine and sit in front of the fire and enjoy.


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## alforit (Dec 10, 2015)

alforit said:


> It definitely should improve It compared to what you had........I had a 13 foot chimney also when I first started burning.  It worked fine with my lennox non cat stove but , HELL NO, for the BK,    Heh.    .......After much trial and error I ended up with 16 feet straight shot up , and feel that is just at the minimum to make these BK's work properly.
> 
> You may ultimately have to extend further due to the elbows , but I am sure you will see an improvement from what you have done so far.......You can always burn with the stat turned up a  little higher to compensate for the lack of draft if needed...........I know its an investment extending the chimney , but these BK's need a stronger draft to work correctly and at their best............And in my opinion , Its worth it.





Calentarse said:


> Alforit, I agree with you. The stove is definitely worth it; however, my house is only 1200 sq. ft. and I can't have the stove turned up at all. It'll overheat my house. I bought the stove because I needed low burn temps. It was notorious for that. So, I went online shopping using this site and the manual for the stove available on BKs website. The manual said that 12' above the flue collar was the minimum, and I deduced that'd it'd be fine with 13'. As we know, this ended up not being the case so I had to spend a lot of money to get this right.


a

Yup, In order to get that low burn that you want you will need the optimal draft . If you don't have the proper draft you will get a smelly and overly dirty burn .....And most likely will fall out of the active zone with your cat and snuff out the burn.

Once you get your draft RIGHT , then most things will fall in line. Then you can start to learn the ART of starting the load and figuring out how and when to close the bypass and set the stat..(Under variable and changing conditions). Because that is key in setting the tone for how hot and quick that fire will burn.


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## Ashful (Dec 10, 2015)

I went thru a two year period of the wife hating the wood stove(s).  The problem was a combination of owning the wrong stove, and the amount of personal time and dedication it takes to get three years ahead when you're burning close to ten cords per year.  Four years in, she's past that, and is now the first to ask when I'm going to light the stove when the outside temps drop.

I learned the key is to minimize her exposure to those annoyances.  In my case, it meant not talking about stoves or firewood, and not going out to split wood while she was stuck in the house watching kids, even if that meant clandestinely taking days off work to split wood while she wasn't around.  In  your case, I guess it means ensuring you don't get smoke smell in the house while she's home, even if that translates to always burning at a higher than desired rate while she's home.  You can experiment with your fixes, and subsequently turning it down lower, when she's not around.  That is, if you don't want to kill the whole wood-burning thing for your family.


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## Highbeam (Dec 10, 2015)

The stove can only burn so low. Heating a small home, especially a well insulated one, with wood is a challenge nomatter what stove you have. The problem is that the house looses heat more slowly than most woodstoves make it for most of the year. The only solution is to let the fire go out and the house cool before restarting and overheating a bit.

That said, if your cat is active, the smoke shouldn't be leaving the stove into the room.


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## Calentarse (Dec 10, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> The stove can only burn so low. Heating a small home, especially a well insulated one, with wood is a challenge nomatter what stove you have. The problem is that the house looses heat more slowly than most woodstoves make it for most of the year. The only solution is to let the fire go out and the house cool before restarting and overheating a bit.
> 
> That said, if your cat is active, the smoke shouldn't be leaving the stove into the room.


Thankfully it isn't anymore, at least not for the moment. Let's hope when our near 70s temps pass this weekend and I light it up again I continue to SMELL NOTHING. Thanks guys-


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## pdxdave (Dec 10, 2015)

Ashful said:


> I learned the key is to minimize her exposure to those annoyances.  In my case, it meant not talking about stoves or firewood, and not going out to split wood while she was stuck in the house watching kids, even if that meant clandestinely taking days off work to split wood while she wasn't around.


Lol great post. This sentence embodies so much of the wood burning process in my home too- clandestine!


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 22, 2015)

Calentarse , are you still smoke free? Was the flue the "fix"?  I have the same issue. The smoke is very light but annoying.


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2015)

Is this with an Ashford 30.1? How much flue do you currently have on your stove? Are there any 90º turns in the smoke path?


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 22, 2015)

It is an ashford 30.1. You never see any smoke but can smell it. 5' of double walled connector and 13' of 8" Metalbestos. I just finished sealing some flue leaks With Dave from A-1 Stoves. Inspected the door gasket. Tightened it up a little. I am thinking that, perhaps, the creosote is wicking through the gasket, while hot in a liquid state, and evaporating. I will fire it up in an hour after the silicone caulk sets up and see if that helped.


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## Dieselhead (Dec 22, 2015)

Is there any product one can slap on a gasket that would soak in to make smoke sneaking past impossible?


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 22, 2015)

The only thing I can think of is gasket cement but it becomes stiff and no longer conforming to create a seal. Only silica and asbestos can withstand the heat while remaining compliant.


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> It is an ashford 30.1. You never see any smoke but can smell it. 5' of double walled connector and 13' of 8" Metalbestos. I just finished sealing some flue leaks With Dave from A-1 Stoves. Inspected the door gasket. Tightened it up a little. I am thinking that, perhaps, the creosote is wicking through the gasket, while hot in a liquid state, and evaporating. I will fire it up in an hour after the silicone caulk sets up and see if that helped.


Could be weak draft due to the size increase. This may take testing with a magnehelic.

Flue leaks, silicone? Silicone is not rated for flue temps.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 22, 2015)

Reading taken at the cat thermometer hole, -.11" flue 600F. I am just starting this load of wood. When the flue is 300F, it is around -.06". The stove is usually on low fire with the pointer at~3:30. The knob is calibrated: at cold iron 1:00=shut. Fully CW the indicator stripe stops at 6:00. I believe I have a very strong draft.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2015)

I hear folks here talk about how there's "zero smell" from their stove, but I've also been in the houses of many wood burners who say they can't smell anything in their house, and I have no trouble smelling it as they're saying this.  Similarly, I know people who actually believe you can't smell their house cat, and almost any non-cat person will tell you they smell cat piss the second they walk into the home of said cat owner.  I assert that the house of EVERY wood burner smells a bit of wood smoke, whether they realize it or not.  The folks I see complaining about it here may just be those more sensitive to it, and actually believing the BS others lay down.  I have never been in the home of any wood burner that does not have a slight smoke smell, period.  In my experience, this smell is only offensive in the case of those who burn wood that is not properly dry.

In my house, I don't believe the smell is actually coming from any leak in any one of the four stoves I have run here, but is drawn in with the make-up air from outside the house.  It likely comes in thru the attic and second floor windows, but it is surely there, faint but constant thru the burning season.  Four stoves, and they were all the same.  In my case, it varies more with wind direction than anything else.

Now getting back to your questions about gaskets, there is a curious thing happening, here.  We know that a properly set up stove will be under negative pressure, relative to the room in which it's installed, and so one might think a leak in any gasket should not emit smoke.  After all, your stove isn't air-tight, there's a big hole called the air inlet.  However, it does seem that the air wash system, which directs inlet air across the glass, may create an area of neutral pressure right around the door, such that a door gasket leak could emit smoke.  Seems unlikely, but it has been a point of discussion in the BK Performance thread.


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## Squisher (Dec 22, 2015)

Negative. No smoke smell in my house......and no cats either. Real or in the stove.


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2015)

My wife has a real sensitive sense of smell and notes almost every time a whiff of smoke comes out of the stove. Our stove does not leak smoke. The issue is being reported too frequently to be imagined.  If the folks have an Ashford replacing another stove they should be believed if they are noting a persistent difference.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2015)

Squisher said:


> Negative. No smoke smell in my house......and no cats either. Real or in the stove.


I don't think my house smells of smoke either, but I do notice it a little at the very beginning of every burning season.  So, it's either disappearing on it's own (unlikely), or I acclimate to it after the first few days, and can no longer detect it (very likely).



begreen said:


> If the folks have an Ashford replacing another stove they should be believed if they are noting a persistent difference.


I believe this is the only valid argument against my assertion.  Touché, my friend!


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## jeffsk7 (Dec 22, 2015)

My siracco has the same smell of smoke at the upper left corner of door.  Its not horrible but its there.  My old country stove had no smell.  I have 18' of stainless liner.  So its hard to convince me its a draft issue.  Althought, i think measuring draft in most of these casses would help.  And if i reacall this is fairly simple with the dwayer manometer.  32 dollars on amazon is a lot cheaper than stainless pipe.


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## Squisher (Dec 22, 2015)

Ashful said:


> I don't think my house smells of smoke either, but I do notice it a little at the very beginning of every burning season.  So, it's either disappearing on it's own (unlikely), or I acclimate to it after the first few days, and can no longer detect it (very likely).
> 
> 
> I believe this is the only valid argument against my assertion.  Touché, my friend!



Well myself I have a super sniffer, really sensitive. I've burned my whole life and live in a rural area where most do. Neither myself, anyone in my family, and any guest we have had have ever noted smoke smell out of my stove. And I know what smoke smells like. I have a upstairs open fireplace that will spill some smoke if conditions aren't perfect (although none since I've installed a grate wall of fire, but that is literally another thread that I will update) and trust me I can smell smoke still. I haven't become accustomed to it because my stove leaks a smoke smell. It simply just doesn't.


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## rdust (Dec 22, 2015)

I have 27' of insulated liner and 3' of double wall.  I started with a 90 going into the wall and had a smoke smell on low burn.  I swapped out the 90 for 2 45's and the smell was gone.  The issue I had was not enough rise before the 90 and also have a pretty long horizontal run through the wall.  My previous non cat had no issues on the same chimney.  A cat stove that burns low is a bit picky when it comes to the chimney.

I get the occasional smell of smoke but I expect it when burning wood.  Visitors always say they can't smell any smoke stink so it's not staying around from reloads or anything else.


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## HighTon (Dec 22, 2015)

jeffsk7 said:


> My siracco has the same smell of smoke at the upper left corner of door.  Its not horrible but its there.  My old country stove had no smell.  I have 18' of stainless liner.  So its hard to convince me its a draft issue.  Althought, i think measuring draft in most of these casses would help.  And if i reacall this is fairly simple with the dwayer manometer.  32 dollars on amazon is a lot cheaper than stainless pipe.


I can detect a smoke smell in the same spot on my Princess, but it doesn't bother me. I have 21' of pipe and tremendous draft. I'm pretty sure it's not a draft issue. I've had people over that also burn and they don't believe the stove is even burning until they get close and feel the heat. My BIL yanked my door open last year with the cat way active because he didn't understand how a modern stove works.


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## BlackGreyhounds (Dec 22, 2015)

You should have gotten a PE stove...  Heh, heh, heh... Just kidding.  When the wind is blowing just right, and I haven't gotten the stove box up to temp, we get a little bit of smoke smell coming in through our sliding glass door and/or dog door.  Nothing is absolutely perfect.  Believe you me, any current EPA stove is better than the smoke dragon my dad ran when I was a kid during the "oil crisis" of the '70's.  Our whole house reeked of creosote and we had 2-3 raging chimney fires every year!


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## begreen (Dec 22, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> Reading taken at the cat thermometer hole, -.11" flue 600F. I am just starting this load of wood. When the flue is 300F, it is around -.06". The stove is usually on low fire with the pointer at~3:30. The knob is calibrated: at cold iron 1:00=shut. Fully CW the indicator stripe stops at 6:00. I believe I have a very strong draft.


Sounds like it.


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## weatherguy (Dec 22, 2015)

My house smells like smoke and cat pizz.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2015)

weatherguy said:


> My house smells like smoke and cat pizz.


It's okay... mine smells like smoke and dog breath.  I can't tell.


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## Squisher (Dec 22, 2015)

Can't tell which is worse. Lol.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 22, 2015)

I fired up my stove at 2:00PM, bypass at 2:30 and ran it wide open to char the load until 3:10PM.  The smell of smoke is still present. I say smell because I cannot see it. It is definitely coming from the hinge area. Using a flashlight, as I look into the stove (it is turned way down) I see no smoke. The chamber static is -.05" . How can smoke leak out? No back puffing at all and no flames. Just glowing coals. The smell is apparent at all stages of firing. Since we have several people experiencing the same "smoke  smell" thing we have a real problem to resolve. Our collective brainpower will do it.


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## pdxdave (Dec 22, 2015)

begreen said:


> *The issue is being reported too frequently to be imagined. * If the folks have an Ashford replacing another stove they should be believed if they are noting a persistent difference.


Yup, I cannot understand how people can still be approaching the reported issues as if owners are just being overly sensitive, or have poor drafts. Seems alot of people replaced previous stoves and now suddenly have no draft, at all. I'm running a cat stove in the "warm" pacific northwest, with 15' single wall pipe in an exterior chimney, and 2 or 3 feet of _horizontal_ run straight out the back of the stove before shooting up. No smoke smell once the door is shut. Now I know my stove is not doing BK type low burns, but even if I stretch it out it still sends all the exhaust up the chimney like every other stove I've used.


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2015)

Is there a tool to sniff smoke? None of us are getting smoke or co alarms going off. On low burns I can smell a smoke like smell above the hinge side. Not in the room. The cat glows a lot and the metal on the stove top gets really hot. There's always dust up there too. Do you think we're smelling burning dust?


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## drz1050 (Dec 23, 2015)

One fix for the smoke smell that I saw was someone removed their gasket, then created a smooth area for the gasket to sit using either gasket cement, RTV, something like that. I smell faint smoke while mine is running as well, but it doesn't bother me so I haven't looked into it yet.

Evidently the door gasket on BKs sits directly on top of the nuts for the door glass. I can't understand why they did this, but a design like that will never seal completely, you're just relying on the draft to overcome the leak. A stove gasket will conform a bit to a bumpy surface, but not that much. Those other stoves that don't leak probably have a flat surface on both sides of the gasket.


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2015)

drz1050 said:


> Evidently the door gasket on BKs sits directly on top of the nuts for the door glass. I can't understand why they did this, but a design like that will never seal completely, you're just relying on the draft to overcome the leak. A stove gasket will conform a bit to a bumpy surface, but not that much. Those other stoves that don't leak probably have a flat surface on both sides of the gasket.



Correct. It would be great if that is the root of the problem. At least there's a possible fix.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 23, 2015)

Ashful said:


> mine smells like smoke and dog breath.  I can't tell.


You need to leave the house and get some fresh air up yer nose, then come back home after half a day; You'll be able to tell _then_. 


drz1050 said:


> One fix for the smoke smell that I saw was someone removed their gasket, then created a smooth area for the gasket to sit using either gasket cement, RTV, something like that....the door gasket on BKs sits directly on top of the nuts for the door glass....a design like that will never seal completely, you're just relying on the draft to overcome the leak.


Yeah, this "problem" was solved in a thread last year, and earlier in this one. Guess nobody except you remembered. What the heck, there's no wood-burning to speak of going on, we gotta have _something_ to talk about. 
Why don't they just fix the design flaw instead of telling everyone to add more pipe?


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## drz1050 (Dec 23, 2015)

Woody Stover said:


> Yeah, this "problem" was solved in a thread last year, and earlier in this one. Guess nobody except you remembered. What the heck, there's no wood-burning to speak of going on, we gotta have _something_ to talk about.
> Why don't they just fix the design flaw instead of telling everyone to add more pipe?



I tried finding that thread, no luck.. was hoping there was a picture of what he did to reference. Anyone else besides me & Mr Stover remember this?

It's not exactly an easy fix for them... they can either leave the nuts as is and design some sort of shield to go over them, but then you'd have the potential for a leak around the edges of that shield.. 

If they were to move the nuts somewhere else, that would also come with a whole new door frame, glass size, brackets, etc.. quite the undertaking. 

At this point, I'd just be happy with an ash pan that worked. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 23, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> I fired up my stove at 2:00PM, bypass at 2:30 and ran it wide open to char the load until 3:10PM.  The smell of smoke is still present. I say smell because I cannot see it. It is definitely coming from the hinge area. Using a flashlight, as I look into the stove (it is turned way down) I see no smoke. The chamber static is -.05" . How can smoke leak out? No back puffing at all and no flames. Just glowing coals. The smell is apparent at all stages of firing. Since we have several people experiencing the same "smoke  smell" thing we have a real problem to resolve. Our collective brainpower will do it.


I'm in the same boat.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 23, 2015)

begreen said:


> My wife has a real sensitive sense of smell and notes almost every time a whiff of smoke comes out of the stove. Our stove does not leak smoke. The issue is being reported too frequently to be imagined.  If the folks have an Ashford replacing another stove they should be believed if they are noting a persistent difference.



Same here . . . and she can always tell when it's time to clean out the cat boxes . . . or if I've passed gas . . . even if was 20 minutes previously.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

I do'nt  think a leaking gasket is the problem because the chamber is in a good negative pressure. Provided you meet the minimum height for your installation, increasing the flue height to increase the draw won't fix it either. My current theory is creosote, while liquid from heat, is moving through the gasket by capillary action and then vaporizing. The question is,then, how can this activity be detected to prove or disprove the theory? Polarized or UV light might show this in the form of apparent smoke. An LED flashlight, and incandescent light show nothing-the air is clear. I am looking around for a cheap source of these alternate light sources as a possible aid in detection.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

If my theory holds true, treating the gasket with something "creophobic" would resolve this but for now, detection is the first step in the discovery process.


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## drz1050 (Dec 23, 2015)

A negative pressure doesn't tell the whole story; you have to look at the air currents' paths inside the box as well. With the air wash going directly against the glass, this has the potential for a leak.

If liquid creosote is permeating through the gasket, I'd expect to see some heavy buildup of class 3 creo right on the far side. Do you have this?


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## drz1050 (Dec 23, 2015)

Also, how is the creo condensing into liquid form inside a hot firebox?


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 23, 2015)

drz1050 said:


> A negative pressure doesn't tell the whole story; you have to look at the air currents' paths inside the box as well. With the air wash going directly against the glass, this has the potential for a leak.
> 
> If liquid creosote is permeating through the gasket, I'd expect to see some heavy buildup of class 3 creo right on the far side. Do you have this?


This could be my problem. I have a good amount of creosote build up on the hinge side of my glass and on the gasket. I'll try to get a picture.


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## drz1050 (Dec 23, 2015)

Here's a quick test you can do for the permeation theory: when you turn the stat down to a low burn, do you start to smell smoke soon thereafter, or does it take a while? And vice versa, when you're smelling the smoke if you crank the stat all the way open, does the smell almost instantly disappear, or does it continue? Gas moves a heck of a lot faster than liquid.


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 23, 2015)

drz1050 said:


> Here's a quick test you can do for the permeation theory: when you turn the stat down to a low burn, do you start to smell smoke soon thereafter, or does it take a while? And vice versa, when you're smelling the smoke if you crank the stat all the way open, does the smell almost instantly disappear, or does it continue? Gas moves a heck of a lot faster than liquid.


I can smell it burning low or high. But I smell it less when I'm in the coaling stages.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

I can smell the odor during all stages of burn. Just as ohiojoe13, much less 12 hours into the burn.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

DRZ1050, I don't have any buildup / discoloration on the outside of the gasket but my stove is only 4 days old. Perhaps with time it will show. Only a very minuscule amount might be causing the odor. 

Ohiojoe13 Does your gasket show any evidence if creosote passing through it to the outside edge? How old is your stove?


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## Eater309 (Dec 23, 2015)

Calentarse said:


> Ok, so the single wall pipe is GONE. Finally got my double wall installed. The pipe is made by Olympia. It's their Ventis pipe. Very durable, 24 gauge. Nice stuff. Fits so tight and I couldn't say that for my single wall. Had to be losing draft because of those gaps and the heat loss.
> 
> This double wall is HOT though on the outside. I thought it'd be cool to the touch! It's even hotter than my single wall up by where it connects to the ceiling. Am I imagining this?!
> 
> ...


This may seem like a stupid idea but anyways...  what if you removed your stove and then checked on the smell?  At least you could find out if it's the stove or the chimney pipes.  Stove looks like it would be easy to move.  Just an idea.


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## Ashful (Dec 23, 2015)

drz1050 said:


> A negative pressure doesn't tell the whole story; you have to look at the air currents' paths inside the box as well. With the air wash going directly against the glass, this has the potential for a leak.


This is what I was pondering a full page ago, in my post #137:


Ashful said:


> We know that a properly set up stove will be under negative pressure, relative to the room in which it's installed, and so one might think a leak in any gasket should not emit smoke.  After all, your stove isn't air-tight, there's a big hole called the air inlet.  However, it does seem that the air wash system, which directs inlet air across the glass, may create an area of neutral pressure right around the door, such that a door gasket leak could emit smoke.  Seems unlikely, but it has been a point of discussion in the BK Performance thread.


One would think the firebox is a big open space, with a very low rate of flow through it on low burn, and so it must be nearly static.  However, the air inlet into the firebox (air wash system) must be very small and restricted, to generate sufficient air velocity for that air wash system to work.  You can see it working, when you have a smokey load in there, and it is impressive how the smoke will roll even at low burn.  So, I suspect this is the reason smoke is smelled around the gasket area, even while you're measuring -0.05" at the cat probe hole.  If those air wash inlets were opened up to the point where velocity across the back of the door were nil, the entire firebox would be sitting at -0.05", and the sealing of that gasket would be much less critical.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

I agree, air movement within the chamber (or anywhere else) can cause counterintuitive phenomena to occur. For example, dust builds up on fan blade edges because it is the point of zero air velocity thus allowing the dust to settle or "land".


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2015)

Woody Stover said:


> You need to leave the house and get some fresh air up yer nose, then come back home after half a day; You'll be able to tell _then_.
> Yeah, this "problem" was solved in a thread last year, and earlier in this one. Guess nobody except you remembered. What the heck, there's no wood-burning to speak of going on, we gotta have _something_ to talk about.
> Why don't they just fix the design flaw instead of telling everyone to add more pipe?


I recall the thread. Here it is:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/bk-ashford-smoke-smell-discovery.143603/
The change is not trivial. Maybe there needs to be a 30.2 or better gasket sealing technique?


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## pdxdave (Dec 23, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> DRZ1050, I don't have any buildup / discoloration on the outside of the gasket but my stove is only 4 days old. Perhaps with time it will show. Only a very minuscule amount might be causing the odor.
> 
> Ohiojoe13 Does your gasket show any evidence if creosote passing through it to the outside edge? How old is your stove?


I think the fact it is happening on a brand new stove somewhat disproves the creosote leakage theory.


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 23, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> DRZ1050, I don't have any buildup / discoloration on the outside of the gasket but my stove is only 4 days old. Perhaps with time it will show. Only a very minuscule amount might be causing the odor.
> 
> Ohiojoe13 Does your gasket show any evidence if creosote passing through it to the outside edge? How old is your stove?


I don't see any passing through. You can see where there is creosote on the gasket but you can see where is stops. There is an indent in the the gasket where it presses up against the stove and that's where the creosote stops.

I had my stove installed July of this year. I have burned maybe 2/3 to 1 cord.


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2015)

Do any other stove brands have these retainer nuts under the gasket?


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2015)

Maybe. Not Jotul or PE models that I know of.


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## jeffsk7 (Dec 23, 2015)

begreen said:


> I recall the thread. Here it is:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/bk-ashford-smoke-smell-discovery.143603/
> The change is not trivial. Maybe there needs to be a 30.2 or better gasket sealing technique?



Is this a confirmed fix?  What does Bkvp have to say about these issues?  Too many of us are smelling smoke around the hinge whether you can smell it in the house or not doesn't make it right.  Love the stove, but not the slight smell of smoke.


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## cannon (Dec 23, 2015)

I did some postings awhile back about the smoke smell on my princess,here is the problem and how I fixed it 100%. The way the door is designed is the problem. Cat stoves are designed to be air tight this one isn't. I believe the Ashfords have the same design also. The glass bracket is held in place by studs and nuts which are directly under the door gasket.They stick up about 3/8" above the glass bracket. When the door gasket is put in place it sits on top of the studs and nuts and creates a void under the gasket.The gasket is a medium density gasket and will not compress around the studs and nuts. To make matters worse the 1/16" thick sealing flange on the stove hits directly on top of the studs and nuts when the door is closed.The gasket can only compress so far before the flange is pushing on the studs and nuts. The pressure on the studs and nuts pushes against the glass bracket and the door loosening the glass.The door frame is 1/16" thick and flexes to much with use.Some people think by adjusting the door tighter they will get rid of their smokey smell, but in reality it makes the problem worse. I've had 3 new doors from Blaze King and none fixed the problem.The last time I called they said I don't know what you want us to do. So I took matters into my own hands and built a new door from 1/4'' thick steel,I removed the studs and nuts from under the door gasket and had to use a door gasket a size larger because of the extra room created from removing them.I then eliminated the 1/16" sealing flange on the stove for one that covers the whole gasket when the door is closed instead of a thin edge cutting into the gasket. Don't believe that adding more chimney will fix the problem, there should be no smell from a air tight stove, period! My stove burns completely different now that it's air tight. I have 33' of triple wall pipe with a strong draft, and with the leaky door burnt out 3 cats in 3 seasons. My stove is much easier to control and I have zero smoky smell. Blaze King should listen to their customers and never stop improving and learn how to take criticism and turn it into a positive for their product.


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 23, 2015)

jeffsk7 said:


> Is this a confirmed fix?  What does Bkvp have to say about these issues?  Too many of us are smelling smoke around the hinge whether you can smell it in the house or not doesn't make it right.  Love the stove, but to the slight smell of smoke.


I sent him a personal message on here so he is aware of my issue.


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2015)

Thanks for the detailed posting cannon. What model do you have? I think the Ashford has a thicker door than 1/16" thick. It's cast.


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## cannon (Dec 23, 2015)

I did some postings awhile back about the smoke smell on my princess,here is the problem and how I fixed it 100%. The way the door is designed is the problem. Cat stoves are designed to be air tight this one isn't. I believe the Ashfords have the same design also. The glass bracket is held in place by studs and nuts which are directly under the door gasket.They stick up about 3/8" above the glass bracket. When the door gasket is put in place it sits on top of the studs and nuts and creates a void under the gasket.The gasket is a medium density gasket and will not compress around the studs and nuts. To make matters worse the 1/16" thick sealing flange on the stove hits directly on top of the studs and nuts when the door is closed.The gasket can only compress so far before the flange is pushing on the studs and nuts. The pressure on the studs and nuts pushes against the glass bracket and the door loosening the glass.The door frame is 1/16" thick and flexes to much with use.Some people think by adjusting the door tighter they will get rid of their smokey smell, but in reality it makes the problem worse. I've had 3 new doors from Blaze King and none fixed the problem.The last time I called they said I don't know what you want us to do. So I took matters into my own hands and built a new door from 1/4'' thick steel,I removed the studs and nuts from under the door gasket and had to use a door gasket a size larger because of the extra room created from removing them.I then eliminated the 1/16" sealing flange on the stove for one that covers the whole gasket when the door is closed instead of a thin edge cutting into the gasket. Don't believe that adding more chimney will fix the problem, there should be no smell from a air tight stove, period! My stove burns completely different now that it's air tight. I have 33' of triple wall pipe with a strong draft, and with the leaky door burnt out 3 cats in 3 seasons. My stove is much easier to control and I have zero smoky smell. Blaze King should listen to their customers and never stop improving and learn how to take criticism and turn it into a positive for their product.
	

		
			
		

		
	

View attachment 170014



begreen said:


> Thanks for the detailed posting cannon. What model do you have? I think the Ashford has a thicker door than 1/16" thick. It's cast.


I have the princess,I remember awhile back someone posted pictures of the inside of the door of their stove that was having the smoky smell problem. Not sure if it was calentarse,but the stove had the same set up as the princess with the studs beneath the gasket holding the glass in place.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 23, 2015)

cannon said:


> glass bracket is held in place by studs and nuts which are directly under the door gasket.They stick up about 3/8" above the glass bracket. When the door gasket is put in place it sits on top of the studs and nuts and creates a void under the gasket.The gasket is a medium density gasket and will not compress around the studs and nuts. To make matters worse the 1/16" thick sealing flange on the stove hits directly on top of the studs and nuts when the door is closed.The gasket can only compress so far before the flange is pushing on the studs and nuts. The pressure on the studs and nuts pushes against the glass bracket and the door loosening the glass.The door frame is 1/16" thick and flexes to much with use.Some people think by adjusting the door tighter they will get rid of their smokey smell, but in reality it makes the problem worse.


I wonder if you could use those half-thickness nuts I've seen, grind down the studs a bit, thereby getting more effective gasket thickness in there. Then maybe slope up next to the nuts/studs with RTV...


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

One thing that I could not explain is why the smell was coming from the left (hinge) side only. The only difference between the left and the right side is the gasket split. The creosote buildups are nearly equal on both the right and left side. Working in the electrical trade I just happen to have some 3M fiberglass high temperature tape. I cut a 2" thin strip and laid in the knife edge impression. Then I overlaid the gasket with glass tape to completely cover it. Loaded the chamber 1/3 rd full and lit the load. We shall see. 11:30AM 12-23-1015


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## Highbeam (Dec 23, 2015)

begreen said:


> Maybe. Not Jotul or PE models that I know of.



And not the Englander NC30.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 23, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> difference between the left and the right side is the gasket split.


Yeah, that seems to be a weak point in these gaskets; They tend to unravel where the ends meet. I had trouble with the Buck ash pan gasket leaking at the gap, accelerating the burn rate. I have started working a _*small*_ amount of RTV into the ends to keep them from unraveling...trying not to use too much, where it would form a big lump.


Highbeam said:


> Do any other stove brands have these retainer nuts under the gasket?


I doubt it. I'm no stove engineer but even I can see that that would be asking for trouble. Only thing I can think of is that it's an attempt to get bigger door glass?


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

The application the glass tape did not help at all. I just turned down the stove from high fire to 3:00. Lots of "ghost" flames dancing about in the top half of the stove. This is when the smell is the strongest. Cannon just might be right on with the problem. It makes sense. The hinge side pushes the glass creating a gap causing the odor. Once the stove top cools, I will remove the top and, using a piece of 2'X3/4" pipe, search for the point of leakage with my nose.


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## shoot-straight (Dec 23, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> The application the glass tape did not help at all. I just turned down the stove from high fire to 3:00. Lots of "ghost" flames dancing about in the top half of the stove. This is when the smell is the strongest. Cannon just might be right on with the problem. It makes sense. The hinge side pushes the glass creating a gap causing the odor. Once the stove top cools, I will remove the top and, using a piece of 2'X3/4" pipe, search for the point of leakage with my nose.



Those ghost flames and the explosions you see are gases coming off the wood and igniting. I think they create lots of positive pressure inside the stove. I even had one make such a pop that it rattled the top of the stove. I think smoke gets pushed out of anywhere it can when this happens. 

I have an ashford.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

Right now, 5 hours into the burn, the smoke is fairly strong. Only coals are glowing. The stove is -.05". I have the kitchen exhaust fan on and the front door open. I removed the cast iron top and set it aside. Using a piece of pipe and my nose, I find the smoke is coming from the hinge area only. I called Dave at A-1 Stoves and related my finding and Cannon's posting. He will call Chris at BK and find a resolve.


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 23, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> Right now, 5 hours into the burn, the smoke is fairly strong. Only coals are glowing. The stove is -.05". I have the kitchen exhaust fan on and the front door open. I removed the cast iron top and set it aside. Using a piece of pipe and my nose, I find the smoke is coming from the hinge area only. I called Dave at A-1 Stoves and related my finding and Cannon's posting. He will call Chris at BK and find a resolve.


I really hope they figure it out. 

On the plus side, at least it sounds like you have some dealer support.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 23, 2015)

Tightening the door assembly made the smoke worse.


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## shoot-straight (Dec 23, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> Right now, 5 hours into the burn, the smoke is fairly strong. Only coals are glowing. The stove is -.05". I have the kitchen exhaust fan on and the front door open. I removed the cast iron top and set it aside. Using a piece of pipe and my nose, I find the smoke is coming from the hinge area only. I called Dave at A-1 Stoves and related my finding and Cannon's posting. He will call Chris at BK and find a resolve.



The kitchen exhaust fan will only exacerbate the issue if your house is tight.

I thought you said you could only smell it when you were right up next to it?


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## Ashful (Dec 23, 2015)

Has BKVP seen this thread?  Went back four pages and didn't see anything from him on any of them.


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## BKVP (Dec 23, 2015)

First, we have sent button head bolts and new door gasket to anyone that responded to my invitation several months ago.

So here it is again.  If your Ashford stove door has the studs with nut fastners, we will gladly replace them with the above fastners and gasket. We stopped using the studs/nuts many months ago. We do listen to our customers (that is why we revised the fastners).  Fortunately, it did help in a few instances but there are a few where it has not.  In those instances, we are working with the owners.

Merry Christmas to all.

Chris


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 23, 2015)

BKVP said:


> First, we have sent button head bolts and new door gasket to anyone that responded to my invitation several months ago.
> 
> So here it is again.  If your Ashford stove door has the studs with nut fastners, we will gladly replace them with the above fastners and gasket. We stopped using the studs/nuts many months ago. We do listen to our customers (that is why we revised the fastners).  Fortunately, it did help in a few instances but there are a few where it has not.  In those instances, we are working with the owners.
> 
> ...


Thank you 

What do I need to do to get these replacement parts?


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2015)

Thanks Chris. Good deal. What gasket cement do you recommend using here?

Merry Christmas to you and your family and the crew at BK.


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## BKVP (Dec 23, 2015)

ohiojoe13 said:


> Thank you
> 
> What do I need to do to get these replacement parts?


Send me a pm with serial number, name and address.  You can peel back the gasket slightly to see if your door had the studs or button head bolts.  Thank you.


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## drz1050 (Dec 24, 2015)

Pm sent, I also have the studs on mine.


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## BKVP (Dec 24, 2015)

drz1050 said:


> Pm sent, I also have the studs on mine.


Thank you.  Please, anyone that responds with a pm, include if it is a 30 size or 20 size Ashford.

Thank you.


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## Highbeam (Dec 24, 2015)

Please, anybody that installs this "upgrade" post pictures. I assume this issue and fix doesn't apply to the other bk stoves with nuts and studs?


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 24, 2015)

BKVP My door has the button head bolts. The stove is an Ashford AF 30.1 Serial 2639. Anything else to look for/do to resolve this smoke from the hinge area problem? Purchased 12-23-2015.


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## ohiojoe13 (Dec 24, 2015)

BKVP said:


> Send me a pm with serial number, name and address.  You can peel back the gasket slightly to see if your door had the studs or button head bolts.  Thank you.


I also have the button head bolts. Sn-2390.


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## BKVP (Dec 24, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Please, anybody that installs this "upgrade" post pictures. I assume this issue and fix doesn't apply to the other bk stoves with nuts and studs?


Correct.


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## rdust (Dec 24, 2015)

I haven't followed this issue really close but it seems most complaints are from min. spec.(or close) chimneys.  Anyone with a 20'+ straight up chimney having issues?


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2015)

At one point Parallax went up to 26 ft I think without fixing the problem.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 24, 2015)

Mine is 6" X 5'  double walled and 8" X 13' Metalbestos for a total of 18'. Magnehelic readings: -.03 at 200F, -.05 at 300F and -.11 at 600F. I believe the draw is good. Draw readings taken from the cat thermometer hole to indicate actual combustion chamber pressure.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 24, 2015)

The Ashford 30.1 manual says -.05" on high burn. My flue has that at low burn. The flue is straight up.


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## Highbeam (Dec 24, 2015)

Measuring at the cat probe hole. Hmmm, I wonder if that's the same as firebox or flue. Sure is convenient.


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## troy-pit (Dec 24, 2015)

Wow seems crazy that the original design had such a glaring flaw for such an expensive highly regarded stove.  I have been researching which stove to buy and now the blaze king does not seem like a great idea anymore.  I live in Seattle area with 1300 sq/ft home and do not really need the long burn times combined with smoke issues, having to burn totally dry wood and dealing with the cat.  I am considering a non-cat stove now.  Any recommendations on a high quality non-cat stove.


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2015)

For a non-cat in this area I would look at the PE Super or Spectrum or Alderlea T5. This series has a regulated secondary burn that is quite efficient.


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## kf6ha[ (Dec 24, 2015)

I have heated my house since 1971 with wood. The Blaze King stoves require the least amount of attendance of _all_ stoves. Every stove has a start-up. After start-up of the BK you set the thermostat and you are done. Tweak it up or down as conditions change. All other stoves require some level of constant monitoring and adjusting to prevent over/under firing. Not the BK. The BK burns more like a furnace than a wood stove. Steady, controlled heat.The little smoke issue I have with the door will be resolved. We have the VP at our disposal! This is NOT true of other stove manufacturers. As for the cat, all the fragility of the ceramic units is gone, the BKs use steel cats. They are a dream to use. Long burn times are lovely. My house is always warm in the morning. Never even a question. Very wood stingy too.  I burn wood cut, split and dried for one summer wood with no problems. Just get it done in the spring. My previous (high-end)  stove was a cat stove too but it behaved as an angry child. Then I discovered the BK. She is a keeper.


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## begreen (Dec 24, 2015)

kf6ha[ said:


> I have heated my house since 1971 with wood. The Blaze King stoves require the least amount of attendance of _all_ stoves. Every stove has a start-up. After start-up of the BK you set the thermostat and you are done. Tweak it up or down as conditions change. All other stoves require some level of constant monitoring and adjusting to prevent over/under firing. Not the BK. The BK burns more like a furnace than a wood stove. Steady, controlled heat.The little smoke issue I have with the door will be resolved. We have the VP at our disposal! This is NOT true of other stove manufacturers. As for the cat, all the fragility of the ceramic units is gone, the BKs use steel cats. They are a dream to use. Long burn times are lovely. My house is always warm in the morning. Never even a question. Very wood stingy too.  I burn wood cut, split and dried for one summer wood with no problems. Just get it done in the spring. My previous (high-end)  stove was a cat stove too but it behaved as an angry child. Then I discovered the BK. She is a keeper.


I can appreciate that BK folks like their stoves, but the assumption that others need to tweak their stoves constantly is incorrect. We load the T6, let the fire get going and turn down the air. With dry wood this is about a 15 minute process. The stove is not touched again for hours until maybe 30 minutes before a reload. Then I open up the air about 50%. Reload 30 minute later and turn down the stove within about 5-10 minutes. Rinse and repeat 8-12 hrs later depending on outside temps, how hard the stove is being pushed and whether it's burning softwood or hardwood. Our house too is always warm in the morning. 8 yrs of burning in this stove and all I have spent money on it gaskets. And never a runaway or overfire worry in that time. Nor a hint of a smoke leak.


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## Ashful (Dec 24, 2015)

begreen said:


> I can appreciate that BK folks like their stoves, but the assumption that others need to tweak their stoves constantly is incorrect. We load the T6, let the fire get going and turn down the air. With dry wood this is about a 15 minute process. The stove is not touched again for hours until maybe 30 minutes before a reload. Then I open up the air about 50%. Reload 30 minute later and turn down the stove within about 5-10 minutes. Rinse and repeat 8-12 hrs later depending on outside temps, how hard the stove is being pushed and whether it's burning softwood or hardwood. Our house too is always warm in the morning. 8 yrs of burning in this stove and all I have spent money on it gaskets. And never a runaway or overfire worry in that time. Nor a hint of a smoke leak.


Just like a BK... but replace your 8 - 12 hour interval with 30 - 40 hours.  



troy-pit said:


> Wow seems crazy that the original design had such a glaring flaw for such an expensive highly regarded stove.  I have been researching which stove to buy and now the blaze king does not seem like a great idea anymore.  I live in Seattle area with 1300 sq/ft home and do not really need the long burn times combined with smoke issues, having to burn totally dry wood and dealing with the cat.  I am considering a non-cat stove now.  Any recommendations on a high quality non-cat stove.


EVERY stove has design flaws... or more accurately, compromises.  If there were a perfect stove, there would be only one stove on the market.  Choose your poison.

I believe BK makes most of the best stoves on the market, today.  That's based as much on overwhelmingly positive reviews from others with more stove experience than me, as well as my own 40 cords experience in my Jotul Firelights vs. the BK Ashfords.

I'm not sure how many stoves BK sells per year, but we have here a small handful of complaints of a very minor smoke smell, out of likely hundreds of units sold.  It sounds like they've already identified a likely cause of the problem, and they seem to be installing the proposed fix on new stoves shipped.

In making the decision on which stove to buy, I'd be paying more attention to their response to this possible problem, than anything else.  They're going out of their way to hunt down a problem that seems to be affecting only a few, sending out replacement doors and parts, as well as implementing a change in their production of these doors.  This is why I have such admiration for Blaze King and Woodstock.  They seem to be two companies who go above and beyond the rest, to stand by their customers, post-sale.


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## BKVP (Dec 24, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Please, anybody that installs this "upgrade" post pictures. I assume this issue and fix doesn't apply to the other bk stoves with nuts and studs?


Correct.


Ashful said:


> Just like a BK... but replace your 8 - 12 hour interval with 30 - 40 hours.
> 
> 
> EVERY stove has design flaws... or more accurately, compromises.  If there were a perfect stove, there would be only one stove on the market.  Choose your poison.
> ...



Thank you Ashful.  We do all we can.  Our senior management met today on this topic.  We reviewed all records by consumers that call into our US and Canadian offices and we are unable to find a single case where there was an issue with an Ashford and a smoke smell.  All the instances are from members of this forum.  (They may have called in subsequently and spoke with me.)

I'm not certain how that translates, nor am I foolish to believe there could not be others that just have not reported such an issue.  As for specifics, at the most, we belive there to be about 10-12 concerned owners at this time.  That is 10-12 too many in our opinion.  Although our sales figures are proprietary, suffice it to say 10-12 is something like 3 places to the right of the decimal, maybe even further.

We did address about 4-6 owners this past 9 months, from this forum.  Some have been successful, others have not.  Changing the fastener method for the door gasket retainers was one step we integrated, although we cannot say for certain it was a culprit.  It did make sense the stud designs could have keep the gasket from being adjusted or compressed completely.  To be very clear, this is different in design than any other models we make.

Also, we believe this issue to also be restricted to 10-12 Ashford 30's, no 20's that we have heard about.

On Monday, I will meet with some engineers and then follow up with a couple of the folks here.  I expect we will get this resolved very soon.  It must be said, we greatly appreciate the patience of those involved.

Merry Christmas to the entire Hearth.com family!!


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## begreen (Dec 25, 2015)

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.


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