# Experience with Alternative septic drainfields?



## jharkin (Apr 22, 2016)

So today while I am digging up the output pipe of my septic tank (a long story) I am pondering this conversation I had with our Septic guy yesterday.

So my spectic system is what they call an "alternative system"  Rather than perforated pipe and gravel, the leach field is composed of these "Quick4" chambers which are basically a plastic half dome, open on the bottom that are simply placed in a sand lined trench and back filled.

Looks something like this( not my house):





My septic guy (not the outfit that installed our system - that was done by the PO with another excavating company)  says that these alternative systems where really popular in the 90's/2000's  and in the last few years they have been doing a lot of replacements  of systems failing at less than 10 years old.  He says that without the traditional gravel bed the domes are filling up with sand and failing early. they are now abandoning this technology and recommending only the traditional gravel bed install.

My system (2008 install)  is still functioning and my guy recommended that I get it pumped every year religiously and try to conserve water to keep my daily use under* half *of the system design flow to reduce stress on the field and avoid a costly failure.

I was a bit skeptical at first as the pumping schedule says we can get away with 3-4 years with our 1500 gallon tank and family of 4 - so he stands to sell me a lot more pumping visits... However he insisted that I call the town building department who would verify a high number of replacement permits for these systems.

I know a couple other people in town dealing with these failures as well.


Question is do any of you have one of these alternative systems and whats your experience?  I did a lot of googling and after you wade through all the Infiltrator systems company marketing I do find some homeowner horror stories.  Of course its hard to tell if its a legit design problem or these families where  dumping grease down the drain and bleaching all their laundry.

Thoughts?


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## firefighterjake (Apr 22, 2016)

I wouldn't call my septic system an alternative type system, but it definitely is an odd design. Instead of going out and then branching out into three or four lines from the septic tank it has one long straight run. So far it seems to be working pretty well for the wife and me.


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## johneh (Apr 22, 2016)

In 1984 we had a filter media system installed was told at the time
that they were the best system ever . 2 years later system failed Luck would have it
still under warranty . Replaces with dome system but used gravel instead of sand
as installer said sand would cause it to fail with in 5 years . Have never had a
problem with my system . 2people in my area have had system failures
and had used sand and not gravel . My system was also covered with a fabric to keep
soil infiltration to a min. Been using this system 20 years now and having it pumped
every 3rd year.


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## DickRussell (Apr 22, 2016)

Going on six years ago we had a new system put in for the new house. It's the "Enviroseptic" design (http://presbyeco.com/products/enviro-septic/). It uses 12" ribbed and perforated plastic tubes covered with fabric, buried in sand and then topsoil. Our leach field (aka drain field in other places) is on a slope, with the tubes perpendicular to the fall line and connected in series. There is a low point vent and a high vent up by the distribution box. There are six 40-ft lengths of pipe, sized for five bedrooms. It's quite prevalent up here, at least in my general area of NH. The picture shows the ends of the top five rows and the U-tube connections, plus the d-box, ready for inspection and final covering.


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## begreen (Apr 22, 2016)

The tank gets pumped out to remove the eventual build up of solids. How long between pumpouts will depend on the number of people using the system and their lifestyles. At one end could be a family of 6 that showers every day and always flushes the toilet. At the other end of the spectrum could be a family of 3 that showers every other day and lets the yellow mellow. We've been told that for our lifestyle and family size (was 4, now 3) that pumping out every 4-5 years is fine. This of course is based on a healthy septic system. If a lot of antibiotics or chemotherapy drugs are getting into the system then pumpouts need to be much more frequent.


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## sportbikerider78 (Apr 22, 2016)

From what I have researched, septic systems get damaged when they are not pumped out regularly and the solids overfill the tank and plug the septic leach field.  Is that fairly correct?  

The little kid in me thinks its hilarious us grown men talk about the best way to get poop under our lawns.


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## johneh (Apr 22, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> From what I have researched, septic systems get damaged when they are not pumped out regularly and the solids overfill the tank and plug the septic leach field. Is that fairly correct?
> 
> The little kid in me thinks its hilarious us grown men talk about the best way to get poop under our lawns.


You are right about the solids in the leach field but all systems installed in the last
number of years have a filter which is removable and cleaned with a hose . The guy
who pumps my tank also cleans the filter their is very much stuck to it


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## jharkin (Apr 22, 2016)

Yes, solids in the field will kill it for sure..  But that's not the only things that kills them and that's not what I am talking about here.

The issue my septic guy is telling me is that these alternative leach fields installed without gravel beds are getting filled up with dirt prematurely.  He is telling all his customers to pump more often and reduce water usage to lighten the load on the system and help avoid this premature failure.  What Im asking is if anybody else has one of these no gravel systems and has had problems.


The engineering plans for my system show that there are 3 inspection pipes in t field. If I can find one and open it up I can take a look and see if there really is risk of sand and dirt clogging up the domes.


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## johneh (Apr 22, 2016)

The ones that I know of that failed were not properly installed
All by the same company .
I think your honey wagon driver is shooting you a load of horse balls
So he can make more money


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## peakbagger (Apr 22, 2016)

The Presby design is real popular in NH. Even if abused they seem to survive and since a lot of the soils are too shallow mound systems are needed. A Presby is usually requires about 1/3 the square footage of leach field which saves hauling in lot of gravel.

There is a new system I see adds for that adds an aerobic stage downstream of the tank. There is chamber full of plastic packing and a compressed air header in the bottom. Air is bubbling up through the packing. Its an old design but can be very effective but requires a compressor running all the time.

Chamber systems were popular 20 years ago. I have heard many comments that they tended to fail due to the installer using poor materials. basically they were using sand fill instead of screened gravel. Presby requires certified installers and the installers have to use gravel from certified suppliers.


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## jharkin (Apr 23, 2016)

johneh said:


> I think your honey wagon driver is shooting you a load of horse balls
> So he can make more money



That's what I was worried about but I have used these guys for years and they dont ever push extra services on me. In fact I had this conversation with him while he was at my house to help me diagnose a potential leak. He figured out what it was (break in the output line from the pump tank) and gave me advice on how to fix it myself without charging me a dime.




peakbagger said:


> Chamber systems were popular 20 years ago. I have heard many comments that they tended to fail due to the installer using poor materials. basically they were using sand fill instead of screened gravel. Presby requires certified installers and the installers have to use gravel from certified suppliers.



Which is what this guy is telling me.  They are chamber systems and he says he is seeing them fill up with sand.

The thing is I dont know what type of fill was used.  I think I need to go hunting for the inspection pipes to get a look inside....


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## semipro (Apr 23, 2016)

johneh said:


> You are right about the solids in the leach field but all systems installed in the last
> number of years have a filter which is removable and cleaned with a hose


If you don't already have a filter one can be installed.  You'd be amazed the amount of synthetic fibers sent to your leach field by the clothes washer.  This stuff doesn't degrade and clogs up the works.


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## jharkin (Apr 23, 2016)

There is a filter.  Its a mound system.  1500 gallon two chamber tank with a filter on the output of the second chamber.  That feeds into a 1000 gallon pump tank.  Barnes  sewage pump from there pumps uphill to the leaching fields which compose of 5 rows 25ft long of these quick4 domes.  As far as I understand no gravel, either covered with sand or just backfilled.

the system design flow is 330 gal/day and we use on average 160-180 gal/day actual  per the water bills (probably only 150 goes into the tank as that figure includes garden watering, etc)


I think they used those dome systems a lot because we have challenging conditions with a high water table , old houses on cramped lots. 

I usually get it pumped every t3 years , which is safe for 4 people and a 1500 gallon by the chart - but he is trying to tell me he sees systems failing early even used well under capacity. Thats what I'm trying to figure out.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 23, 2016)

jharkin said:


> Which is what this guy is telling me.  They are chamber systems and he says he is seeing them fill up with sand.
> The thing is I dont know what type of fill was used.  I think I need to go hunting for the inspection pipes to get a look inside....



The local health units here usually have all the design info on file if a permit was taken out.  Very possible the same info would be available to you with your comparable office/agency.


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## jharkin (Apr 23, 2016)

I have a copy of the design plan.  As best I can tell its a well designed system, everything was to code at the time (08), full permits  and it passed the Mass septic inspection (Title V).


The plan (below)  shows the quick 4 domes and states "Infiltrator quick4 domes to be installed per MFG standards by an Infiltrator sys certified installer"  Doesn't say anything if they used gravel sand or just dirt to back fill.  It also shows 3 inspection pipes installed but doesn't have the exact locations.


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## Lake Girl (Apr 23, 2016)

Long shot but any chance that there were any metal portions in the install?  Metal screws for joining irrigation chambers?  Metal detector would help with locating .... 

Just checked an install guide and they use drywall screws for connecting sections...  not sure if that is enough to pick up a general track on the lay-out.


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## Highbeam (Apr 25, 2016)

My favorite topic. Yes, I'm an engineer and this poop is my bread and butter.

The frequency of pumping has everything to do with solids accumulation and nothing to do with how much water enters the tank. So taking shorter showers, letting yellow mellow, or using high efficiency clothes washers, toilets, shower heads, or dishwashers has NOTHING to do with pump frequency. The only reason you pump the tank is to remove the solids from the tank before they rise (sludge) or fall (scum) to the tank outlet level and contaminate your drainfield. Sludge is the solid stuff that sinks to the bottom and accumulates into a firm mud. Scum is the white/brown floatable solids like grease and fat that float to the top and create that nice floating layer on top. The clear zone in the middle is the good stuff that will eventually leave the tank to the drainfield after all of the solids either float up or sink down.

The only good thing a premature pump out does for a tank that wasn't needing it is that it gives your drainfield a rest. The rest period is good for a marginal system because if the drainfield is overworked it is saturated with water too often and only anaerobic bacteria can live like that. A drainfield is supposed to be full of aerobic bacteria which need oxygen to quickly eat any remaining nutrients that leave your septic tank. It should take a week or so to refill an empty tank before the first effluent leaves the tank to the rested drainfield.

The above rest is why drainfields are designed with a daily flow rate. The drainfield must remain unsaturated, the ground must accept the effluent faster than your house is dumping it so that the bugs stay aerobic and oxygen levels high. Less flow is always better since it gives you the best chance of staying unsaturated.

So in summary. Only pump your tank when it needs it. 1500 gallons, family of 4, an easy 5 years. Your pumper can tell you how "full" the tank was and whether you could have gone twice as long or maybe three times as long. Better to be conservative and pump early until you establish this history. Still, don't cut it close. Lots of money at risk. The business also has a tool called a "sludge judge" that is a pipe that you insert into the tank to the bottom, put your thumb over the end and lift it out. The layers of sludge, clear, and scum stay separate and you can judge the need for pumping.

Chamber systems are fine if installed properly. The sand backfill is weird. Should be just native soil. The chambers are set onto the ground and since water is supposed to soak into the dry ground below, there is no use for gravel above the chambers. The reason you can reduce the required drainfield area with the chamber systems is that the trench bottom, the soaking area, is not partially blocked by gravel as it would be with a traditional gravel trench system. You've got to grade the trench bottom perfectly level as the chamber systems work by dumping the effluent into the chamber area and using the entire trench bottom for soaking.

Gravel backfill won't hurt though and will prevent an installation error from ruining the system. I suspect the method of failure is that the chambers aren't firmly bedded or sealed into the native soil so the sand easily washes into the chamber area as rainfall/surface water from above falls through the ground and wants to enter the chamber, taking sand with it. Not unlike how a leaky sewer main causes a sinkhole on the surface. Sand is the problem. Either gravel or real soil should be used.

Divert surface water away from the drainfield area.


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## Laurent Cyr (Apr 26, 2016)

DickRussell said:


> Going on six years ago we had a new system put in for the new house. It's the "Enviroseptic" design (http://presbyeco.com/products/enviro-septic/). It uses 12" ribbed and perforated plastic tubes covered with fabric, buried in sand and then topsoil. Our leach field (aka drain field in other places) is on a slope, with the tubes perpendicular to the fall line and connected in series. There is a low point vent and a high vent up by the distribution box. There are six 40-ft lengths of pipe, sized for five bedrooms. It's quite prevalent up here, at least in my general area of NH. The picture shows the ends of the top five rows and the U-tube connections, plus the d-box, ready for inspection and final covering.
> View attachment 178201




I have the same system.  In fact, the ground is all clay around here, and the municipality recommended Enviroseptic as the only solution for us acceptable for the environment.  No smells, and it accomodates a five bedroom house.  Mind you, they also suggested a special type of sand, and this system cost me an arm and a leg at 20K.

After 5 years and mandatory yearly inspection of the field, I have had no problems.  Given that the field is on a little slope, I also need a pump to push the grey water to the field.  There`s an alarm on the pump in case it fails.  I would much prefer a gravity system, but it was not possible in my case.


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## Highbeam (Apr 26, 2016)

Some parts of the country allow surface application, sprinklers, for effluent after the various treatment systems are finished. I always thought that this would catch on since you irrigate with the treated wastewater. We do it at the municipality level in WA instead of river dumping sometimes but not often enough IMO. The sprinklers would of course run at 2 in the morning. Septic tank, to whitewater (aerobic treatment system), with UV for final polish, and then pump out at night. My home uses 100 gallons per day so the sprinklers might run for 5 minutes.


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## jeffesonm (Apr 28, 2016)

Nothing to add other than this thread is a good reminder to go clean my filters.


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## Highbeam (Apr 28, 2016)

jeffesonm said:


> Nothing to add other than this thread is a good reminder to go clean my filters.



Funny, I was also reminded to clean my filter. Pulled it out and hosed off that schmuck onto the lawn. Those things catch a lot of synthetic fibers from our clothes that not only don't decompose but they also don't sink down or float up right so they stay in the clear zone.


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## D9H (Apr 29, 2016)

Pipe in rock is still the best system. Less chance for failure. The quick 4 infiltrators can settle, anymore they want them to be placed on a geotextile grid. Infiltrators were pretty big for awhile because the labor to install isn't as much to properly install as a pipe in rock system. I have installed both kinds, overall I prefer pipe in rock, the actual price difference is nearly a wash depending on price of local materials, but properly laid pipe on a level grade is pretty well foolproof.


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## sportbikerider78 (May 3, 2016)

I have a traditional system, 25 yr old house and I have only been there 3 years.  The soil is clay with not much topsoil.  2 kids...2 adults.

Lately, I have noticed some water oozing out of the ground where (I imagine) the septic tank is.  Smells like a turd, so I thought that was a safe assumption.  I'm going to have it pumped soon, to be safe, as I have no history on the system.  I have also had zero problems with it, other than the turd'ish lawn emission. 

Anything else I should look at?


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## begreen (May 3, 2016)

That's not a good sign. Get a complete report on the tank health and the solids depth to start with. 
http://www.lenzyme.com/Drainfield_Education.html


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## sportbikerider78 (May 3, 2016)

Good read.  This is just one area of the lawn (1sqft), and it is a pretty good decline from the house and far from the house.  I'm thinking they just didn't use enough topsoil.  The clay in this area is really dense and absorbs nothing.  I think that it is running down the clay bed and seeping out at the end of the leech field.


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## Mike01007 (Jun 6, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> My favorite topic. Yes, I'm an engineer and this poop is my bread and butter.
> 
> The frequency of pumping has everything to do with solids accumulation and nothing to do with how much water enters the tank. So taking shorter showers, letting yellow mellow, or using high efficiency clothes washers, toilets, shower heads, or dishwashers has NOTHING to do with pump frequency. The only reason you pump the tank is to remove the solids from the tank before they rise (sludge) or fall (scum) to the tank outlet level and contaminate your drainfield. Sludge is the solid stuff that sinks to the bottom and accumulates into a firm mud. Scum is the white/brown floatable solids like grease and fat that float to the top and create that nice floating layer on top. The clear zone in the middle is the good stuff that will eventually leave the tank to the drainfield after all of the solids either float up or sink down.
> 
> ...



I'm new to the forums here but because this is your "bread and butter", I figured I could serve you a helping, hoping that you can serve me some advice. 

After living in our new home for 14 years, our system has begun to fail. We have the wet leeching field and when it it pumped, the honey wagon tells is the field leaks back into the tank. The tank has never seen feminine products or food disposals but obviously with three kids, laundry and showers are frequent. We have a family of five and I would need to head back to the town to see exactly what size tank was installed but I know it was sized for 4 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms.

I've seen a few Youtube videos and some discussions surrounding the aerobic pump systems and how they can "save" your septic system. I'm a licensed electrician by trade, very handy with construction and repairs but not very familiar with plumbing and obviously septic systems. Can these conversions work and save us $15k? Are there local or state red tape that I need to be aware of? Can I simply do this on my own?

Thanks everyone~


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## peakbagger (Jun 6, 2017)

Until Highbeam answers, here is some Massachusetts specific reading http://www.mass.gov/eea/agencies/massdep/water/wastewater/septic-systems-title-5.html

Keep in mind every state has different regulations and each design usually needs state approval. I seriously doubt you can DIY it. When I looked into aerobic treatment technology several years ago that adds a method of introducing air bubbles upstream of a biological trickling filter, the owner had to have a long term maintenance agreement with remote monitoring for the life of the unit. I was way too tempting for the homeowner to turn the power off to the blower to save the power and let it overflow. I have also heard that they are less tolerant of household chemicals.

Given the various housing booms in Mass over the years I hope you just don't have a site that had marginal soils and developer threw in an inappropriate design.  

I got an idea that you may be getting familiar with one of these systems http://presbyeco.com/pe_approval/massachusetts/


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## Highbeam (Jun 6, 2017)

Mike01007 said:


> I'm new to the forums here but because this is your "bread and butter", I figured I could serve you a helping, hoping that you can serve me some advice.
> 
> After living in our new home for 14 years, our system has begun to fail. We have the wet leeching field and when it it pumped, the honey wagon tells is the field leaks back into the tank. The tank has never seen feminine products or food disposals but obviously with three kids, laundry and showers are frequent. We have a family of five and I would need to head back to the town to see exactly what size tank was installed but I know it was sized for 4 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms.
> 
> ...



A traditional system has a septic tank where primary treatment occurs. These are almost always 1000 gallons and full of anaerobic bacteria that eat slowly to decompose the separated sludge and scum. The tank only provides primary (the first stage) treatment of separation. It works by providing time for the separation to occur. The 1000 gallon size is 4 or 5 days residence time between deposit into the tank and being pushed out into the drainfield. I doubt that your septic tank is the problem here unless you have never had it pumped in 14 years or you have some rare habits like 5 bathtubs every night.

Once the somewhat clean liquids leave the tank they go to the drainfield which has two functions. One is to dispose of the liquid by soaking into the ground. The ground MUST have a fast enough infiltration rate to accept the effluent from the tank and keep the drainfield dry on the surface and way at the bottom below the pipes and gravel. You actually need unsaturated soil beneath the pipes. Because of this unsaturated environment there is oxygen available for the aerobic bacteria to provide the second function of the drainfield which is to quickly eat whatever funk made it out of the septic tank. Healthy aerobic bacteria here eat up the funk and keep the funk from plugging up the soil surface under your drainfield. Also the funk needs to be eaten before contaminating the ground water beneath.

One special consideration is lint. Synthetic lint doesn't separate well in the tank and isn't eaten by the bacteria so it is important and usually required to have an effluent filter on the outlet of your septic tank to keep the lint from floating out into the drainfield. It is slow, but the accumulation of the synthetic lint can cripple the drainfield. The effluent filters also are a backup system to keep sludge and scum from leaving the septic tank if you fail to pump it frequently enough. They have been required on all new installs in WA for many years.

Assuming your system was built properly in the first place, assuming normal water use in the home, and assuming you've had this tank pumped a couple of times in the time you've owned it, the problem most likely originated in your drainfield. Either high groundwater levels, physical damage like a break/plug, or soil that was too tight to accept the sewage like clays. Somehow you ended up with a saturated drainfield that can no longer accept your sewage fast enough. This is the worst possible news a septic system owner can get. You are almost forced to abandon the drainfield and build a new one in the "reserve" area since the saturated drainfield will have killed the aerobic bacteria and now the funk from your septic has developed a matt of funk at the soil surface below your drainfield pipes that will prevent it from ever working right again. I have seen some folks resort to a technique that is a bit like fracking to break up the matt and allow the sewage to once again soak through. They call it drainfield rejuvenation and some success has occurred at about 20% the cost of a new drainfield assuming groundwater levels are not a problem.

You can't DIY anything. Legally. But I might be inclined to try a rejuvenation service without getting any permits. At least talk to the guy.

The most common underground aerobic system has a regular septic tank, with regular anaerobic bacteria for separation, but then the effluent flows to a second tank with air injection where aerobic bacteria eat the funk to provide secondary treatment just like your drainfield would. There is often a UV light in the second tank before the outlet to do a little polishing before it goes out to the drainfield. In this case, the drainfield is really just a disposal field and the sewage is pretty dang clean. Some locations even allow surface sprinklers for this. The aerobic systems are needed when the soils are too tight, the groundwater too high, or space is too limited to provide the aerobic bacteria function of a regular drainfield.

A second type of aerobic system uses a mound of sand above ground level (so it's dry) where the effluent from the septic tank receives secondary treatment before running off onto the ground surface.

Aerobic systems are much more expensive than a replacement drainfield if you have some ground somewhere that is good enough for a traditional replacement drainfield.

Your system has failed. You are polluting the groundwater and you risk having a backup into the home. Your dog and kids will play in the surfacing sewage. It won't get better if you ignore it but you can probably get through the summer by reducing water usage a lot while you plan for a replacement. You won't be able to sell your house as-is.


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## Highbeam (Jun 6, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> Given the various housing booms in Mass over the years I hope you just don't have a site that had marginal soils and developer threw in an inappropriate design.



Most likely scenario. Or the designer was unaware of high groundwater since he did the design in the summer. The systems don't wear out if they are designed, installed, and operated properly. My home's gravity system is 54 years old, always had a family of four using it.


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## Mike01007 (Jun 15, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> The most common underground aerobic system has a regular septic tank, with regular anaerobic bacteria for separation, but then the effluent flows to a second tank with air injection where aerobic bacteria eat the funk to provide secondary treatment just like your drainfield would. There is often a UV light in the second tank before the outlet to do a little polishing before it goes out to the drainfield. In this case, the drainfield is really just a disposal field and the sewage is pretty dang clean. Some locations even allow surface sprinklers for this. The aerobic systems are needed when the soils are too tight, the groundwater too high, or space is too limited to provide the aerobic bacteria function of a regular drainfield.



The home was brand new when I built it and bought it. I know they trucked in a significant amount of material to create the elevated drain-field. We have had the system pumped nearly every three years (maybe missed one session so four-six years between pumping). The air-injection systems (many offered online) is exactly what I had hoped for but it sounds as if the field is so saturated that it will no longer take the fluids. I suspect the drain-field is not only filled with fluids but bio-mat? From what I understood, the air injection would also help created the correct bacteria to eat away at the bio-mat and help the system rejuvenate the drain-field. This system is much more cost effective and more DIY; I would never try and attempt do replace my drain-field on my own.

Would an inspection/cleaning of the drain-field piping be required? Maybe access the ends of the drain-field pipes and insert a self feeding powerwasher type hose? $15k is simply not in the budget for a very long time...

Thanks again for all advice....I truly appreciate it!


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## Highbeam (Jun 15, 2017)

Mike01007 said:


> Would an inspection/cleaning of the drain-field piping be required? Maybe access the ends of the drain-field pipes and insert a self feeding powerwasher type hose? $15k is simply not in the budget for a very long time...



The drainfield rejuvenators that inject air and/or foam pellets to fracture the ground and the biomat to allow effluent to pass through all start out by locating each end of each drainfield lateral and jetting the line clean. They do this to remove cloggage but also to accurately locate the pipes so that their injector machine doesn't break one.

Normally, drainfield lines do not need to be jetted clean.

Call around asking for an actual service provider that might offer advice specific to your unconventional system. Be careful though of saying that your system has failed. You don't want the health department out there condemning your house.


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## semipro (Jun 16, 2017)

Mike, 
You may be able to increase your drainfield's capacity by taking advantage of plant transpiration and sunlight.  Is the septic field area shaded?  If so, taking down some trees to let in some sunlight will help.  Also, certain types of plantings in the septic field area will help transfer the moisture from the ground to the air via transpiration.  Of course you have to select plants that won't damage or clog you lines.  

If you have turf there now it may help let the grass grow (to increase surface area) and give it more sun.  

A publication here on septic field plantings: https://www.pubs.ext.vt.edu/content/dam/pubs_ext_vt_edu/426/426-617/426-617_pdf.pdf


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## peakbagger (Jun 16, 2017)

I am definitely not advocating this approach but long ago I heard of shady characters that would dump some sort of concentrated caustic product down the drain into what I would guess were cesspools to break up the grease and solids. I don't think it was ever legal but homeowners can get desperate and fall for fly by night fixes. I have also heard but not seen the same approach used on drain fields where they locate the distribution box and add the caustic directly to the drainage pipes. I expect in either case it may possibly clean any grease out of the perforated holes where they discharge into ground but probably screws up the biology.

As far as I ever heard of, the choice is replace the field preferably on an alternative site or do a replace in the same spot which I believe requires significant excavation down below the prior base of the leach field.


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## susanl (Oct 27, 2020)

Hello
I'm writing to let everyone know that our Enviro system has failed in 2020 and do not recommend using this system. Buyer beware. The plan was drawn up in 2009. We moved into our newly built home in 2011.  We pumped the tank every 2 years - that's 4 times starting in 2013. The designer/surveyor that was used has done a new design gratis. Here is where it gets interesting. The new plan is 50% larger than the original plan following the same specs of a 5 bedroom plan for our 4 bedroom home. We over built our system for our own security for it to last. I believe Presby had overestimated the quality of their product back in 2009. The information used from Presby is sent to the state for designers to follow the specifications.   At the time of our build vents were not required. The installer and designer followed those specifications and didn't have them as part of the design. The original installer is now putting in a new field gratis, because like the designer he feels the product is inferior. In contacting Presby, they have not offered anything up other than the tech to check out our system and point fingers at others. He confirmed all the tubes where full of fluid. Which means the had not been crushed by any outside source. He confirmed the proper sand was used but not enough of it surrounding the tubes. The designer and installer say that the sand could have moved because of the flow. Town inspector and a third party inspector who called our leach field failed feel, that the homeowners are not at fault. The pumping company are surprised we are failed.


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## peakbagger (Oct 27, 2020)

FYI Presby sold the business to this company https://www.infiltratorwater.com/about/


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## begreen (Oct 27, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> FYI Presby sold the business to this company https://www.infiltratorwater.com/about/


That's one way to avoid liability.


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## peakbagger (Oct 27, 2020)

Presby Systems were developed locally and they have been installing them for 20 plus years. They have a very good reputation in Northern NH and NH in general. The leach field is much smaller than a traditional system. The soil liquid interface is more effective then the conventional Sch 10 PCV pipe with holes in the bottom but they do have the reputation that the drainage layer that the "tubes" go in had to be a very specific screened gravel with minimal fines.  Too many fines and the field does not drain, the approved screened gravel only comes from a few pits and the temptation is to just use a screened bank run. I have not heard of any early failures related to the design. They usually are used to replace conventional design failed systems as they take up a lot less room. 

On the other hand there is an ongoing issue with synthetic lint plugging leach fields of all types. New systems include a lint filter on the outlet of the tank. The other aspect is that folks used to city sewer usually have a rough time getting used to a septic tank. Unlike a city system, septic systems are more sensitive to usage. The so call soft toilet paper that is getting popular has hard to digest  fibers. Like the lint fibers they do not sink to the bottom of the tank. They tend to attach to gas bubbles and float to the top where they go out into the field and plug the leach field. Therefore the owner can pump the tank routinely and still have some non biological  solids going out into the field. Others use garbage disposals which is not recommended for septic systems.  

I do not profess to be an expert but I have heard folks that have had failed systems and inevitably there is finger pointing with the homeowner caught in the middle.  Systems do not necessarily need an  external vent if they are a gravity system. On the other hand if its a pump up system then there does need to be a vent.  The problem is the cost to bring in experts to figure out who is to blame will exceed the cost to replace the leach field so rarely is it sorted out.


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## DickRussell (Oct 27, 2020)

For what it's worth, my Enviroseptic leach field, put into use in 2011, has been in operation without any problem at all. In 2019, I had the tank pumped for the first time. Sure, eight years is a long time to run without pumping, but the system is sized for five bedrooms, and most of the time it's just the two of us using it. The pumper said it was ready for pumping, but otherwise was just fine.


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## MTY (Oct 28, 2020)

I installed an infiltrator system a couple of years ago.  3 seventy foot trenches, native soils, bottom of trench level with top sloping about a foot over the seventy feet.  I hope it lasts a long time.  The prior system was a home cast tank with a four inch pipe surface laid to the creek.  

Permit cost was quoted at 1200 for a new system.  I asked public health to inspect my grandfathered in system.  The poor inspector was gasping,  I got the new permit for 350.


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## zrock (Oct 28, 2020)

The biggest thing to make sure with your systems is to have the filter/strainer on the outlet to the field and that the piping in the tank is proper. The piping in the tank goes down to a certain level aprox 2 feet below the surface so it only picks up fluid and no solids.  You can start with yearly pumping and see where the solids are on this pipe if they are still quite high on the pipe give it 2 years before pumping and check again. Once you figure out your usage you may be able to get away with pumping your tank every 3-8 years.  As stated above about toilet paper, you also need to keep paper towel and grease out of the system. We had a tenant that always flushed paper towel and would always plug the inlet of the tank. this stopped once i gave them the bill for the honey wagon. I used to do installs and run a large modular and rv park. Depending on the age of our system i could get away with pumping tanks between 1 and 4 years. Anything above that would be a guaranteed plug. 
Back to the original post in our area i have never seen a system that was to code not use drain rock...


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## susanl (Oct 29, 2020)

begreen said:


> That's one way to avoid liability.


I have filed a complaints to the Better Business Bureau, the United States Environmental Bureau, and the Maine Center for Disease Control and Prevention. There are laws in the state of Maine that are on the side of the consumer, where there is liability coverage 4 years after a product fails based on the predicted life of the product. We will be busy with pursuing legal action


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## peakbagger (Oct 29, 2020)

Good luck on your pursuit, let us know in several years how it works out if you go the legal route. You may want to start with the right department in Maine https://www.maine.gov/dhhs/mecdc/environmental-health/plumb/, 

The US EPA has delegated its authority to the State of Maine so they could care less. The BBB may make you feel good but as discussed the finger pointing will be between the designer, the company who supplied the materials, the company that did the installation and yourself. Possibly you could try to get WGME TV consumer reporter to do some public guilt tripping?.  Do note that the state still includes the Presby type systems in their training so maybe they will take an interest.


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## susanl (Oct 29, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> Good luck on your pursuit, let us know in several years how it works out if you go the legal route. You may want to start with the right department in Maine https://www.maine.gov/dhhs/mecdc/environmental-health/plumb/,
> 
> The US EPA has delegated its authority to the State of Maine so they could care less. The BBB may make you feel good but as discussed the finger pointing will be between the designer, the company who supplied the materials, the company that did the installation and yourself. Possibly you could try to get WGME TV consumer reporter to do some public guilt tripping?.  Do note that the state still includes the Presby type systems in their training so maybe they will take an interest.



Thanks for all the advice and realize it may take a while The bigger the paper trail for the complaint the better the lawyer said. She also suggested the tv route once the complaints are established. The issue I need to be sure to bring to light is the size difference of the same spec'd plan with the new guidelines. And that all the others involved are doing their work gratis.


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## Sodbuster (Oct 30, 2020)

I've often thought about routing my gray water (washing machine) to my sump pump. It's only soapy water, and would save wear and tear on my drain field.


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## peakbagger (Oct 30, 2020)

Sodbuster said:


> I've often thought about routing my gray water (washing machine) to my sump pump. It's only soapy water, and would save wear and tear on my drain field.


Some areas allow gray water to be used for irrigation. A cleanable sediment filter is installed on the line. This does not work very well where the ground is frozen as the gray water being applied to the surface would freeze. There is a ski area in Maine, Sugarloaf that sprays partially treated effluent thru a snow gun system in an area away from the slope. They build a big pile of snow over the witner and then let it melt in the spring. 

One lesser known fact is that urine is sterile and some alternative systems seperate out the urine and bypass it for direct land application.


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## blades (Oct 30, 2020)

ya know I never did understand or agree with the local codes that say everything has to go to the septic tank including ground water collection from basement footing piping.  To Me routing the washer at minimum to a different system  and the footing ground water would make a lot of sense. For years the basement pump was just that - surface discharge then something changed- I can see it being a problem in the cities and a lot of the packed tight suburbs (previous home issue with surface ground water after new subdivison went up) but not out here in Farm country.   And I remember a  episode on This old House or similar that was doing just that and that was up in the northern original 13 colonies and not out in the boonies just a few years ago. As my place is a 90/91 build and the drain plumbing is all plastic- it would be very easy for me to reroute the washer and various sinks and with 3 acres lots of room to send it somewhere all on a gravity basis- only the basement crock would need the lift( as they all do)


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## tlc1976 (Oct 30, 2020)

A coworker had his washer run to an underground drain barrel to keep it out of the septic. When he went to sell his house he said don’t say anything, let the inspector do his job and he will probably not see it even though it is technically not to code. Doesn’t make sense, it all goes into the ground regardless.

My grandpa had something similar, it went to his basement drain to an underground barrel. When the city rebuilt the water mains they found it and he had to abandon it and fight with a sump pump for the rest of his life. Meanwhile relocate the washer upstairs. The house was built on an artesian well, keeping the basement dry was impossible.


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## paulnlee (Oct 30, 2020)

In my county where the average lot is 3+ acres every home up for sale fails for septic system. A few are under 5 years old. Average cost here for a new field---30K. Tell me it's not a racket


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## MTY (Oct 31, 2020)

Two points, to use an alternate routing system for urine one only has to step outside.  Secondly, for 30k one could buy a mini ex, build it your self, and pocket a good chunk of change.  

I dug my tank and lines from the house and to the distribution box, and paid someone 300 to dig the 210 feet of trench for the leach field.  I think all told I have about 3K in the system.  It was inspected, mapped, and approved prior to backfill.  The tank is concrete with two chambers.  

My mini is not pretty, but I only paid 8K for it.  It dug the basement, the crawl space, drain lines for the gutters, water and electric lines, retaining wall trenches, and probably more I cannot remember.  A monkey could run one.  This monkey will soon be digging the shop foundation.  I should have bought one years ago.


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## zrock (Oct 31, 2020)

30k for a spetic system... my last job before i left we installed a 3 tank system plus pump chamber and about 800ft of drain line and field line 300-400 feet of  power cable and our cost was about 10g plus labour came no ware need a 30 g price tag and this was enough to meet code for 6 new modular homes...


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## paulnlee (Oct 31, 2020)

zrock said:


> 30k for a spetic system... my last job before i left we installed a 3 tank system plus pump chamber and about 800ft of drain line and field line 300-400 feet of  power cable and our cost was about 10g plus labour came no ware need a 30 g price tag and this was enough to meet code for 6 new modular homes...


Like I said it's a racket. And that 30K is for the drainage field only! Every home for sale fails septic inspection and when they're done you see a big mound with PCV sticking out


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## zrock (Nov 1, 2020)

man i need to move down their and open a business i could make a killing their ..LOL


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## blades (Nov 2, 2020)

There are areas around  South East Wisconsin where the ground is mostly Clay- most do not pass current codes if the current system fails and about the only thing the DNR approves nowdays seems to be the mound systems.  Soil type and size of lot have a lot to do with it.


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## peakbagger (Nov 2, 2020)

Mounds are pretty much standard in my area. We have thin layer of topsoil with hard pan glacial till underneath. There needs to be 4' from the top of the seasonal high water table to bottom of the leach header. Most homes have far less than that. That is why the Presby design was popular, they need much less space for leaching which means less gravel to haul in.


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## hockeypuck (Nov 4, 2020)

There could be something to the EnviroTube issue.  I had one installed 3 years ago.  No problems but a contractor said that there was some issue with the company designing and selling the tubes and what they were really designed to handle (bumped into him this year). Further details are hearsay so I will stop there.  Point is, I will be getting mine pumped every year as opposed to every two, at least while my kids are at home.
Edit:  Going to add a few things.  The grit size for the sand in these fields are important. Had a septic designer tell me that.  It is a very specific grit.  The other thing is, we all use our fields differently.  I am a miser.. no cooking fat, no flushable wipes and i throw my snot rags in the waste bucket.  Some families, especially if they move from cities with sewer systems, into a home with a septic system, can be brutal on the system.


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## paulnlee (Nov 5, 2020)

The last time I was pumped(last Year) guy said worst thing is soap ie shampoo and the rest. As far as the fill for the field some travel all the way to so jersey to get special? fill


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