# Wood heating to be banned in New York state



## mark cline

NO MORE HEATING WITH FIREWOOD IN NEW YORK?​Clay ModenPublished: December 29, 2021

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The days of having your home heated with a wood furnace may be going away in New York State. There's a pending law in New York that will begin to outlaw heating devices that create carbon emissions.
This bill known as the New York State Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act was signed in 2019 and will start to have a big impact in 2022. 


> Sections 2 and 3 of the bill would modify the Environmental Conservation Law to establish the New York state climate action council, and green-house gas emissions limits and reporting requirements, and provisions to address potential impacts on disadvantaged communities.




According to the bill, this portion of the law will go in to effect as of October.


> The bill would take effect on the same date as a chapter of the law of 2019 relating to a permanent environmental justice advisory group as proposed except that the community air monitoring program required by section 2 of the act shall take effect on October 1, 2022.


Similar to the reasons there won't be any gas ATV's available in New York State, this new law aims to end the damage to the environment that is caused by outdoor boilers/wood-burning furnaces.
In New York City, new buildings won't be hooked up to gas for heating or cooking.


*Read More: *No More Heating With Firewood In New York? | https://wyrk.com/heating-with-firewood-in-new-york/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral


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## bholler

mark cline said:


> NO MORE HEATING WITH FIREWOOD IN NEW YORK?​Clay ModenPublished: December 29, 2021
> 
> Share
> Tweet
> The days of having your home heated with a wood furnace may be going away in New York State. There's a pending law in New York that will begin to outlaw heating devices that create carbon emissions.
> This bill known as the New York State Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act was signed in 2019 and will start to have a big impact in 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the bill, this portion of the law will go in to effect as of October.
> 
> Similar to the reasons there won't be any gas ATV's available in New York State, this new law aims to end the damage to the environment that is caused by outdoor boilers/wood-burning furnaces.
> In New York City, new buildings won't be hooked up to gas for heating or cooking.
> 
> 
> *Read More: *No More Heating With Firewood In New York? | https://wyrk.com/heating-with-firewood-in-new-york/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral


As I said in your other post can you provide a link to the actual bill to go with this clearly biased piece?


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## woodey

I just looked at the bill. I would post a link to it but I'm  not great on a computer and frankly it's  probably a waste of time to look at. My take from it after a quick look is that it's a long term goal, nothing in the near future. Very vague on specifics.(Time frame, emission standards , ect, ect....)  It's a bill that was drafted under the Cuomo administration in 2019 and later shelved. At this point it's probably more or less a piece of paper for the politicians to get their name on to show us good folks here in N.Y that they are concerned with our health. I'm going to continue to keep my wood supply 3 years ahead!


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## NorMi

Well it's good to know Betteridge's Law of Headlines still holds in this particular case.  Not only is it inaccurate, it seems to be unsupported by the text of the article itself, the text of the bill, and directly contradicted by the most recent draft of the climate action plan that appears to _promote _the expansion of wood product markets within the state.  Strange...  The NRDC also did a nice primer on the bill that was linked from the Wikipedia entry linked from the article that does a good job of putting the bill into easier to parse non-legalese.


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## stoveliker

I agree; I read the bill and commented in the other thread. It's nothing. (As of yet.)
I'll also keep my 3-year shed full.


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## salecker

Burning wood is carbon neutral
It releases the same carbon if burnt or rots,only difference is it is released quicker in a stove 
But using Nat Gas or power isn't By the time they ban everything the electrical generation will be a huge polluter.
Here they have been pushing electric heat to get away from oil,but as soon as it gets cold they have to fire up a row of diesel generators to meet the load on the grid,last time i drove by they had 10 semi units with generators in a row,that was in Whitehorse.there are the same units in a few other towns as well
Makes no sence,but most of the sheeple don't know what is actually going on.


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## bholler

salecker said:


> Burning wood is carbon neutral
> It releases the same carbon if burnt or rots,only difference is it is released quicker in a stove
> But using Nat Gas or power isn't By the time they ban everything the electrical generation will be a huge polluter.
> Here they have been pushing electric heat to get away from oil,but as soon as it gets cold they have to fire up a row of diesel generators to meet the load on the grid,last time i drove by they had 10 semi units with generators in a row,that was in Whitehorse.there are the same units in a few other towns as well
> Makes no sence,but most of the sheeple don't know what is actually going on.


Wood isn't actually carbon neutral.  But it's about as close as we get as a heat source.  The difference is one in the processing emissions are created.  And two when wood rots a large portion of the carbon ends up back in the ground not released into the atmosphere.   But untill electrical generation changes allot wood is certainly much closer to neutral.


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## peakbagger

Zombie thread, might as well close it down or combine it with the other one.


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## maple1

Where's the other one?


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## stoveliker

I can't find it anymore. And that's shame because there was more (correcting) response there. It appears it has been deleted rather than merged.

Regardless, this thread is a candidate for closing as it just isn't consistent with the bill it pertains to report on


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## woodey

Without getting to political this thread is as irrelevant as a V.P.


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## fire_man

This article seems timely for this thread:









						Your Stories: Is New York State putting a ban to burning wood in 2022?
					

SYRACUSE, N.Y. (WSYR-TV) — As we ring in the New Year, some of you have reached out to the NewsChannel 9 Your Stories team wondering if you’ll still be able to burn wood or wood product…




					www.localsyr.com


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## 71montess

If they are talking about it now, they will be implementing it in the future.  They will not stop.


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## fire_man

It's draconian that they  would even consider bannning modern EPA approved woodstoves.
The article says they are not talking about it.


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## bholler

71montess said:


> If they are talking about it now, they will be implementing it in the future.  They will not stop.


They aren't talking about it that's the whole point.  Did you read the bill?


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## 71montess

fire_man said:


> It's draconian that they  would even consider bannning modern EPA approved woodstoves.
> The article says they are not talking about it.


When I say “they“ are talking about it, I mean enough that it in the media. And this imop is the camels nose.
in the town of Brookline , Ma the town actually tried to ban all carbon based fuels for heat. Only wanted electric. I think the courts shut it down. How absurd would it be for that to happen , you might have asked ?
envirowakows.


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## bholler

71montess said:


> When I say “they“ are talking about it, I mean enough that it in the media. And this imop is the camels nose.
> in the town of Brookline , Ma the town actually tried to ban all carbon based fuels for heat. Only wanted electric. I think the courts shut it down. How absurd would it be for that to happen , you might have asked ?
> envirowakows.


But the bill doesn't say what that media claims it says.  They simply made it up.


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## ABMax24

salecker said:


> Burning wood is carbon neutral
> It releases the same carbon if burnt or rots,only difference is it is released quicker in a stove
> But using Nat Gas or power isn't By the time they ban everything the electrical generation will be a huge polluter.
> Here they have been pushing electric heat to get away from oil,but as soon as it gets cold they have to fire up a row of diesel generators to meet the load on the grid,last time i drove by they had 10 semi units with generators in a row,that was in Whitehorse.there are the same units in a few other towns as well
> Makes no sence,but most of the sheeple don't know what is actually going on.



It's actually interesting that you mention the Yukon Energy powerplant in Whitehorse. I've spent a little bit of time up there. You're assertions about the portable diesel generators are correct, they are needed because the existing diesel generators, LNG generators, and the dam can't meet demand. Electric heat in the Yukon is about the most carbon intensive way to heat.

Oh, but grants are given out for residents to install solar panels, which generate electricity in the summer when the dam is already meeting capacity and spilling surplus water. Too bad that money wasn't used to increase renewable capacity during the winter.


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## Rmay635703

One of my neighbors renovated an antique smaller home w/out forced air adding insulation, windows and whatnot
they didn’t want to $$$ and convert the heating system properly and used mini split heat pumps to cheap out.

When it was a steady -20F last February they got a $700 “heating “ bill, my overall utility bill including a1960’s era gas furnace was $140 for the same month

Me thinks that there are “unforeseen “ complications from banning future combustion furnaces in northern climates.

Even Texas had massive problems last winter from leaning too heavily on mini split heat pumps combined with minimal insulation

Me personally I have two furnaces and a fireplace, if one fuel source doesn’t work the other does.


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## velvetfoot

NY wants to ban natural gas.  NYC already is for new construction.  Natural gas!
This state sucks.


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## sloeffle

Rmay635703 said:


> One of my neighbors renovated an antique smaller home w/out forced air adding insulation, windows and whatnot
> they didn’t want to $$$ and convert the heating system properly and used mini split heat pumps to cheap out.
> 
> When it was a steady -20F last February they got a $700 “heating “ bill, my overall utility bill including a1960’s era gas furnace was $140 for the same month
> 
> Me thinks that there are “unforeseen “ complications from banning future combustion furnaces in northern climates.
> 
> Even Texas had massive problems last winter from leaning too heavily on mini split heat pumps combined with minimal insulation
> 
> Me personally I have two furnaces and a fireplace, if one fuel source doesn’t work the other does


I believe it, aux heat is very expensive to run. My heat strips on my geothermal unit cost about $2.30 an hour to run at .16KwH. I call the red aux heat light on my thermostat the "money light". I don't even have heat strips wired into my panel because I don't want to spend that kind of money. 

Like you, I have a wood burning furnace that runs when temps get cold because I'm not paying that kind of electric bill.


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## maple1

sloeffle said:


> I believe it, aux heat is very expensive to run. My heat strips on my geothermal unit cost about $2.30 an hour to run at .16KwH. I call the red aux heat light on my thermostat the "money light". I don't even have heat strips wired into my panel because I don't want to spend that kind of money.
> 
> Like you, I have a wood burning furnace that runs when temps get cold because I'm not paying that kind of electric bill.


Yes but mini splits don't have heat strips.


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## sloeffle

maple1 said:


> Yes but mini splits don't have heat strips.


I didn't realize that. Does the unit just run non-stop then when temps get really cold ?


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## 71montess

Heat pumps are crazy $ to run through a New England winter. But it's what the government wants us to use. Get used to it


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## NorMi

Mini splits pretty much run non-stop all the time, they just turn up/down the compressor to match the load.  As an example, it was about 6F here this morning, and I'm using about 2800w to heat the house.  My cold weather unit does have a heater strip in the drain pan so the ice doesn't build up during defrost cycles in the cold weather, it only run as needed during defrosts, which happen every 2 hours, unless there's precipitation snow/ice that is getting on the outdoor coils.


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## stoveliker

sloeffle said:


> I didn't realize that. Does the unit just run non-stop then when temps get really cold ?


I think most people have a minisplit as a secondary option. I have a minisplit system. Works fantastic. Works fair down to 17 F. Obviously the efficiency in moving heat from the 17 F outside to the 68 F inside goes down. So, I have a wood stove (and for insurance purposes I have oil-heated hydronic baseboard that is not being used anymore).

There are units that work with fair efficiency down to 5 F or so.

THere is a member (@Brian26 I believe) that knows a lot about these.


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## sloeffle

NorMi said:


> Mini splits pretty much run non-stop all the time, they just turn up/down the compressor to match the load.  As an example, it was about 6F here this morning, and I'm using about 2800w to heat the house.  My cold weather unit does have a heater strip in the drain pan so the ice doesn't build up during defrost cycles in the cold weather, it only run as needed during defrosts, which happen every 2 hours, unless there's precipitation snow/ice that is getting on the outdoor coils.


I have a 4 ton geo unit and it uses roughly 2900w when running in second stage, luckily it runs in first stage ( 2400w ) most of the time. I don't run my geo when it gets really cold though either.

Out of curiosity, how many tons is your mini-split, and roughly how many sq ft are you heating with it ? 

Any idea how many watts does the mini pulls when the heat strip kicks on to defrost the the drain pan ?


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## NorMi

Mine was cheaper to run for all season vs. propane last year, and this year the mini split should run about 2/3 - 1/2 the cost of propane.  I'm putting in the wood furnace option this year to use on the coldest days and to use up free wood from the property.  Buying wood at market rates is also more expensive than heating with the mini split here... and that's on 18.1 cents/ kwh delivered for electricity.  The coldest month here is January with average daily temperature of 17F.

I originally was going to keep using the propane direct vent heater, but no one would come fill the tank after I bought the house without a bill of sale for the tank, or setting a new tank for $$$.  I ran the numbers and went ahead and installed the mini split last year.  I keep a couple 100lb. tanks as a backup and disconnected the 500 gallon tank.


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## NorMi

sloeffle said:


> I have a 4 ton geo unit and it uses roughly 2900w when running in second stage, luckily it runs in first stage ( 2400w ) most of the time. I don't run my geo when it gets really cold though either.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how many tons is your mini-split, and roughly how many sq ft are you heating with it ?
> 
> Any idea how many watts does the mini pulls when the heat strip kicks on to defrost the the drain pan ?


The heat strip in the pan is barely noticeable, it pulls about 50-100w during the 5 minute defrost cycles when it's below about 20F outside.  I am heating a 1890's farmhouse that was renovated in the early 2000's, 1900 ft^2.  I only heat downstairs with the two heads off the mini split, 950 ft^2 which keeps the bedrooms about 62 F.  It is a 27K BTU Bosch, I undersized it thinking I would add a 2nd unit for the upstairs rooms, but never needed it so far.


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## stoveliker

I think there are two things. 
The defrost cycle is one ( intermittent) thing, but there is also heating going on of the coolant when the system is not in use and it's cold outside, so that something (water in the coolant?) does not settle - or so.  Needed to be on for a while before the system switches on when it's cold to avoid damage. Hence it's always on. I thought 40 W or so.
This is for me a case of having heard about it without having intimate knowledge.

There is a thread somewhere here about this permanent (when cold) heating thing being on, and implementing breakers to kill "all" when you know you're not using the heat pump.


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## peakbagger

NorMi said:


> Mini splits pretty much run non-stop all the time, they just turn up/down the compressor to match the load.  As an example, it was about 6F here this morning, and I'm using about 2800w to heat the house.  My cold weather unit does have a heater strip in the drain pan so the ice doesn't build up during defrost cycles in the cold weather, it only run as needed during defrosts, which happen every 2 hours, unless there's precipitation snow/ice that is getting on the outdoor coils.


My experience is contrary to yours in Northern NH, I have a cold climate Mitsubishi unit that is rated for heat down to -12 F but like it or not the quality of heat is poor down below 10 F. Yes, it is technically heating the air above the room temp but down at the lower temps it is just a few degrees over the room temp. I am not the only person or entity noticing this, Both Maine and Vermont is suggesting that these are supplemental heating units only with some cold weather backup. As far as I am aware, there are no companies building cold climate mini splits with supplemental heating coils. On new construction on seasonal places, builders are putting in electric floor radiators to make up the deficit in very cold weather and speed up how quickly they can warm up the place.  Mini Splits are not cheap and few people are going to install multiple units to cover the heating load at the design heating load. Far better to install a very efficient heat source that covers the majority of the load and a backup.  The backup would be sized to heat the space just over freezing. 

As I have mentioned, I know someone who sells and installs vented oil fired heaters (Used Monitors or new Toyo Stoves) they sell a lot of them to people who bet on cold climate heat pumps in Maine and had a tough time when things got real cold in Maine. They put out a lot of heat in small space and do not need much power to run during a power outage (200 to 300 watts).


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## NorMi

Yeah my plan was to use the propane as a backup last year during cold snaps, but I never used it.  That's one of the reasons I went with 100lb tanks, to strongly dissuade myself from firing up that system, as I am not really fond of lugging those 170lb monsters around to fill them!   It would have been cheaper on the coldest days to use the propane, but it wasn't worth the hassle to switch over for me.  The coldest day last year for me was Feb. 11th and it got down to -9F overnight, so it was a mild-ish year.

I did a study on the install last year and I was using 3.04 kWh/HDD (heating degree day) for propane heat and 0.57 kWh/HDD on the mini split as the seasonal average.  The propane kWh are cheaper, but since it used so many more, it came out to be slightly more expensive per HDD, and this year that cost has about doubled.  I did everything converted into kWh when I did the study so it was easier to compare apples/apples of input energy and cost/unit of energy.  It cost $3,337.28 to install the mini split.


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## salecker

NorMi said:


> Mine was cheaper to run for all season vs. propane last year, and this year the mini split should run about 2/3 - 1/2 the cost of propane.  I'm putting in the wood furnace option this year to use on the coldest days and to use up free wood from the property.  Buying wood at market rates is also more expensive than heating with the mini split here... and that's on 18.1 cents/ kwh delivered for electricity.  The coldest month here is January with average daily temperature of 17F.
> 
> I originally was going to keep using the propane direct vent heater, but no one would come fill the tank after I bought the house without a bill of sale for the tank, or setting a new tank for $$$.  I ran the numbers and went ahead and installed the mini split last year.  I keep a couple 100lb. tanks as a backup and disconnected the 500 gallon tank.


I am sure you could sell that tank if it's no good to you
Great storage for someone


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## NorMi

salecker said:


> I am sure you could sell that tank if it's no good to you
> Great storage for someone


I'm actually using it for secondary storage to run my larger generator now from my wood gasifier!  I didn't want to let it go to waste even if the propane companies around here are knuckleheads.  I doubt anyone could get it "legally" filled in the local area since they all want the original bill of sale for the tank or to sell you a new one.  That was the first time in my life a vendor (*all* the vendors!) talked me _out_ of using their product because they made it such a hassle to work with them... I couldn't believe it when I moved in! I guess they figured everyone is a captive customer or something. 😡


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## salecker

Yes "customer is always right" is so last century...


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## hoot

bholler said:


> Wood isn't actually carbon neutral.  But it's about as close as we get as a heat source.  The difference is one in the processing emissions are created.  And two when wood rots a large portion of the carbon ends up back in the ground not released into the atmosphere.   But untill electrical generation changes allot wood is certainly much closer to neutral.


Trees extract co2 from the air we breath and generate oxygen.... in the process creating the fuel or "wood battery"
You take the co2 out of the air, store it in the wood, when you burn, it goes back in the air to be reused by the new trees.


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## bholler

hoot said:


> Trees extract co2 from the air we breath and generate oxygen.... in the process creating the fuel or "wood battery"
> You take the co2 out of the air, store it in the wood, when you burn, it goes back in the air to be reused by the new trees.


Yes but by burning wood you are releasing more sequestered carbon than would have been released if the wood was left to rot.  Like I said it's about as close as we can get to neutral but it still isn't


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## 71montess

hoot said:


> Trees extract co2 from the air we breath and generate oxygen.... in the process creating the fuel or "wood battery"
> You take the co2 out of the air, store it in the wood, when you burn, it goes back in the air to be reused by the new trees.


And who wants to be neutral ? I m not for smoke dragons but this carbon neutral thing and bringing the associated costs up with all fuels is borderline insane.


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## hoot

71montess said:


> And who wants to be neutral ? I m not for smoke dragons but this carbon neutral thing and bringing the associated costs up with all fuels is borderline insane.


They will never fix climate change with dictatorship. I have always said if we can get population down, so will everything environmental get better.  Less babies, let attrition reduce population.


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## Mr._Graybeard

Hair on fire is a great personal heating source.


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