# venting pellet stove (europa 75) into unlined masonry chimney



## Exmasonite (Feb 17, 2011)

Hey all-

So, having some major issues in the home heating department.  Problems with a woodstove (long story) and looking at my options...

I have a dellpoint europa 75 in the basement that does nothing other than heat the basement very well.  

One of the options is to move the pellet stove to the first floor where the wood burning stove is.  

There's an 8" thimble in the wall, i think there's a 4" or 5" double walled pipe off of the Europa.  

Europa currently isn't running with an OAK... Not even sure if it's equipped to take it.  

So, the big question is:

an i vent my pellet stove into my unlined masonry chimney?  Chimney is probably about 25' high with a cap/screen on top to prevent water and critter invasion.  I would be willing to add in OAK if necessary.  

Just need to look at all options... just don't have $1-2K to drop into lining the chimney (coupled with all the $$/time to acquire and process wood)


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## Barrett (Feb 17, 2011)

I have done exactly that, working fine so far after 4 years.
You can buy a metal reducer for the thimble.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 18, 2011)

Barrett-

Thanks for the info.  2 questions:

1) Do you run an OAK?

2) Any thoughts on reducing from 8" down to 4" (double reduction) or should i upgrade the pipe on the stove to 6"?


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## Exmasonite (Feb 18, 2011)

any other opinions on running a pellet stove into an unlined masonry chimney?


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## AVALON 900 PS (Feb 18, 2011)

DOES YOUR CHIMNEY HAVE JUST THE BLOCKS OR DOES IT HAVE TILE INSIDE ?.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 18, 2011)

Well, that's a VERY good question... and time for me to display some of my ignorance:  I'm not sure.  

I've attached some pics i took looking through the thimble.  Looking like there's not just "brick" in the chimney.  There's concentric rings, about 6" tall going around the chimney all the way up.  From what i understand, house was built in 87 but chimney was added later, 92 or 93.  

So, i'm "hoping" that tiles mean that chimney may be able to handle stove load better without liner?  Here are pics (first is camera phone directed up chimney shaft, hopefully better illustrating the "rings" i was talking about, 2nd is my little makeshift mirror to check shaft, third is looking through thimble)


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## AVALON 900 PS (Feb 18, 2011)

LOOKS LIKE TILE TO ME ,THATS OK FOR A WOOD STOVE , BUT I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT PELLET STOVES,I DONT THINK THERE WOULD BE ANY CONCERN ABOUT IT GETTING TO HOT,BUT THERE MAYBE OTHER CONCERNS WHEN HOOKING UP A PELLET STOVE.LOOKS A LITTLE DIRTY!


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## Exmasonite (Feb 18, 2011)

If anything, i think a pellet stove exhaust is lower temp than a wood stove but hey... i've been wrong all week. 

So, if it's tiles, temperature isn't going to be as much of a concern?  I think draft/cubic feet of stack to warm is going to be a problem and that's where the liner would come in.  If i end up putitng the pellet stove in there, don't want to blow out the blower if there's too much resistance/not enough draft.


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## Fsappo (Feb 18, 2011)

The Europa has a very low stack temp and low cfm convection fan.  Because it only uses a 10 to 1 air ratio, there just isnt a lot of muscle to push that exhaust very far.  That being said, I do have one customer with a Europa into a 20' or so masonry chimney thats working just fine.  The other ones all required 3" stainless liners.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 18, 2011)

Franks- thanks!  

This, of course brings me to another thought/idea:

Forego the chimney option and bag the whole wood stove/thimble issue, put the pellet stove on the main floor and cut a separate exhaust hole for it.  

May be something to consider, actually.  Probably <$500 out for that, i'd figure.


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## BDPVT (Feb 18, 2011)

Looks like a good chimney to me. I have both my pellet stove vented directly into masonry chimneys with no problems at all. The chimneys require very little cleaning and no cresote issues, unlike a wood stove. Don't be to concerned about draft, you are going to gain lots of natural draft from the height of the chimney without the aid of an exhaust fan. Think fireplace. Good luck!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 18, 2011)

Tile lining good, not so sure about what is on the surfaces however, as it looks like creosote.

Was that flue used for a wood stove?


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## Exmasonite (Feb 19, 2011)

Smokey-

Yeah, that's the wood stove.  I have a thread over in the hearth subforum with some good pics here: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/71231/

Basically, it's a 6" pipe that comes off the top of stove, does a 90 degree turns and goes horizontal through the wall.  Thimble is 8" but pipe is 6" with a 2" collar around it.  Have been getting smoke leaking through collar.  

All that build up is likely glazed creosote.  What causes that?  I was cleaning pipe out weekly... i'm convinced that the CSL log i used is what induced the glazing since i didn't have that problem until i ran that (once... and only once).  

Figure my options are this:

1) Insulate thimble with something (rockwool, etc) to allow subpar/ possibly dangerous wood burning with current stove into chimney

2) Install chimney liner/clean up thimble (have a pro do it) and continue burning in wood stove

3) Retire wood stove, move pellet stove upstairs and vent it through current thimble into masonry chimney

4) Same as 3 but install proper liner in chimney for pellet stove

5) Same as 3 but forget chimney/liner altogether and vent pellet stove through separate opening (only benefit of this would be to only have to do 10-15' run of pellet pipe as opposed to cost of lining entire chimney- 25')


Have a stove tech from Valley Fireplace and Stove in Canton, CT coming out to check out my setup next week and give recommendations.  Trying to figure out the most cost effective option but unfortunately not sure how "long term" i should be planning since we may relocate in 3-4 yrs.  (As in, should i just save the couple thousand $$ and spend it on fuel oil)


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## Fsappo (Feb 19, 2011)

Exmasonite said:
			
		

> Franks- thanks!
> 
> This, of course brings me to another thought/idea:
> 
> ...



Thats exactly what I would recommend on a Europa.  A typical pellet stove I would line the chimney.  The Europa is blowin a tiny bit of luke warm air out the exhaust (Enough that the local code guys and fire chief will allow the Europa to be the ONLY biomass stove to be burned indoors with no vent to the outside at the Fair in Syracuse.  Makes the other stove dealers jealous and man does that sell a stove)


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## wazilian (Feb 19, 2011)

So the consensus here for a masonry chimney lined with the terracotta/ceramic such as the pictures above, to get proper draft a typical pellet stove is to get a flexible chimney liner? My masonry chimney is the same as the OP according to the pics. Outside of the creosote I was wondering if he was taking those pics in my house lol. My plan is to do that with a 4" liner.

Off stove  --> 3" to 4" T-adapter --> vertical 4" pellet pipe for about 3' --> 4" T-adapter --> wall thimble --> 4" pellet pipe for about 28" --> 4" T-adapter --> 4" chimney liner (I need to measure this distance but I'd say a good 15'???) --> cap

My concern is the number of T-adapters in my venting from the basement. Before next burn season I'd like to get this figured out cause I hope to have my basement finished by then as long as the wife doesn't have us going all over Europe. I will probably give Mike and his boys a jingle over at Englander unless I get enough feedback from here. Which I wouldn't doubt. There are too many knowledgeable helpful people on this forum IMHO.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 19, 2011)

wazilian said:
			
		

> So the consensus here for a masonry chimney lined with the terracotta/ceramic such as the pictures above, to get proper draft a typical pellet stove is to get a flexible chimney liner? My masonry chimney is the same as the OP according to the pics. Outside of the creosote I was wondering if he was taking those pics in my house lol. My plan is to do that with a 4" liner.
> 
> Off stove  --> 3" to 4" T-adapter --> vertical 4" pellet pipe for about 3' --> 4" T-adapter --> wall thimble --> 4" pellet pipe for about 28" --> 4" T-adapter --> 4" chimney liner (I need to measure this distance but I'd say a good 15'???) --> cap
> 
> My concern is the number of T-adapters in my venting from the basement. Before next burn season I'd like to get this figured out cause I hope to have my basement finished by then as long as the wife doesn't have us going all over Europe. I will probably give Mike and his boys a jingle over at Englander unless I get enough feedback from here. Which I wouldn't doubt. There are too many knowledgeable helpful people on this forum IMHO.



You might want to talk with the folks at England, but from where I sit you are headed for some burn issues.   Your EVL is at least 26 and even 4" pipe has its limit.


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## wazilian (Feb 19, 2011)

That is what I figured, just thought I would throw it out there to see what others thought. Thanks.


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## BIGISLANDHIKERS (Feb 19, 2011)

Id just direct vent the pellet stove.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 20, 2011)

> Thats exactly what I would recommend on a Europa.  A typical pellet stove I would line the chimney.  The Europa is blowin a tiny bit of luke warm air out the exhaust (Enough that the local code guys and fire chief will allow the Europa to be the ONLY biomass stove to be burned indoors with no vent to the outside at the Fair in Syracuse.  Makes the other stove dealers jealous and man does that sell a stove)



Franks (and everybody else)-

So i guess i'm a LITTLE confused at this point and need a little clarification:

If i vent the europa out a seperate hole, how much of a vertical run do i need for the pipe?  

I only ask b/c i don't REALLY want to cut another hole in the house.  Does venting into the tile-lined chimney actually present more air resistance than venting out directly?


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## arnash (Feb 20, 2011)

Since the size of the chimney is something like 400-500% percent larger that vent pipe, I can't see how you can even wonder if a much larger vent (the chimney) could present more air resistance than vent pipe.  The chimney would have to be smaller than the vent pipe to cause higher air resistance.  As for lining the chimney, bare in mind that the operating temp. of a pellet stove is far less that that of a wood stove simply because of the volume of mass being burned.  In a pellet stove you're only burning about a table spoon or two at any time, while in a wood stove you're burning ____________(fill in the blank...25 times?...50 times more? A lot more, so the exhaust gases are a heck of a lot hotter.  And diluting the pellet stove gases in the wide open space of a chimney lowers the temp even more.
      From the pictures, it looks like your chimney is already lined.  I assume that it's a brick chimney with cement liner sections stacked all the way to the top.  You probably could safely vent multiple pellet stoves into such a chimney.  One thing to be aware of is broken, cracked, or missing sections of the liner.  My chimney has that problem but it wasn't a problem when I used my fireplace (worthless) because the brick chimney was as good as new.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 20, 2011)

arnash said:
			
		

> Since the size of the chimney is something like 400-500% percent larger that vent pipe, I can't see how you can even wonder if a much larger vent (the chimney) could present more air resistance than vent pipe.  The chimney would have to be smaller than the vent pipe to cause higher air resistance.  As for lining the chimney, bare in mind that the operating temp. of a pellet stove is far less that that of a wood stove simply because of the volume of mass being burned.  In a pellet stove you're only burning about a table spoon or two at any time, while in a wood stove you're burning ____________(fill in the blank...25 times?...50 times more? A lot more, so the exhaust gases are a heck of a lot hotter.  And diluting the pellet stove gases in the wide open space of a chimney lowers the temp even more.
> From the pictures, it looks like your chimney is already lined.  I assume that it's a brick chimney with cement liner sections stacked all the way to the top.  You probably could safely vent multiple pellet stoves into such a chimney.  One thing to be aware of is broken, cracked, or missing sections of the liner.  My chimney has that problem but it wasn't a problem when I used my fireplace (worthless) because the brick chimney was as good as new.



The issue with a large cross sectional flue is that the weight of the air in the flue can prevent the proper functioning of a pellet stove.

In the case of a fireplace this presents as a poor draft until you get the flue completely heated.

In just about all jurisdictions in the US it isn't code to vent more than one appliance into a flue.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 20, 2011)

arnash said:
			
		

> Since the size of the chimney is something like 400-500% percent larger that vent pipe, I can't see how you can even wonder if a much larger vent (the chimney) could present more air resistance than vent pipe.



Well... i figure there has to be SOME law of physics that is escaping me as to why in a PERFECT world, i want/need a $1K liner in my chimney versus just running the vent pipe into the chimney.  I imagine that the lack of draft (by not using liner) on some level equates to a decreased airflow/more work for the blower on the stove in order to overcome.

Edit: And, as smokey is much better at describing, i was trying to refer to the weight of the air in the stack acting as an impedance/obstacle for the stove.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 20, 2011)

Exmasonite said:
			
		

> arnash said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since every single flue is unique one could always try it without a liner, some folks have managed without one while others have had nothing but trouble.  The low airflow from the Europa however would make me line the flue.


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## arnash (Feb 21, 2011)

I reckon the best solution is to use PL vent pipe into the chimney and from there just use uninsulated vent pipe running up to or near to the top of the chimney.  Then all the problems of venting into a chimney would be solved.


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## BDPVT (Feb 21, 2011)

This is all good theory. Three points I would like to make. First, pellet stoves burn very clean. The volume of Co2 and particulate in the exhaust is very small compared to a wood stove. Not a very heavy, dense column to move. Second, warm air rises. There will be a chimney effect if the exhaust is warmer than the outside air. This is aided by the exhaust blower. My guess is exit temps are 200-300F so no problem there. Third, I have 2 pellet stoves vented directly to old fireplace chimneys and they have worked perfectly for years.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks for all the info guys.  

Stove tech will be out Wednesday to take a peek.  Gonna wait and see what the verdict is.  This is same company that installed the europa in the basement so hopefully have SOME knowledge about the stove.  Have 1-2 other options if second opinion needed/wanted.  

Will keep everyone posted.


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## summit (Feb 21, 2011)

we ran one of those as a display into a round clay liner (7") for well over a year as a display model. Burned fine.. and we used 4" singlewall stovepipe to vent it. Didn't smoke, either.


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## Exmasonite (Feb 21, 2011)

in a perfect world, the europa will stay in the basement and we can find a way to keep the wood stove running on the 1st floor. I fear that's going to be an expensive fix but thinking more and more it's going to be worth it.


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## arnash (Feb 22, 2011)

"My guess is exit temps are 200-300F so no problem there."   That may be true for a wood stove but not for a pellet stove.  More than once I've positioned my face at the end of my vent pipe to test the temp and quality of the exhaust air.  Each time the air was no warmer than the room blower air, which can be barely warm if the stove is on a very low setting.  Also, the air was so clean that when breathing it I could hardly tell that it was exhaust air.   Now my exhaust is barely warm since I added 4 4-foot lengths of metal water pipe into the 4"horizontal section of the exhaust pipe.  They soak-up lots of exhaust heat before it goes out the vent.


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