# "Moving Heat" :  Convection Air Currents in Your House



## becasunshine (Nov 28, 2013)

There are numerous discussion threads on this forum about moving heat from one room to the next when using our wood burning appliances.

We have a 1410 sq ft bungalow with a circular floor plan.  The stove is literally in one corner of the house.  

Our first couple of seasons with our pellet stove were less than satisfying.  We'd been told that the stove would run us out of this house.  Didn't happen- not the first year, nor the second year- not until we got a lot more serious about our insulation.  (That's a whole other thread.)  

Turns out that the first couple of years, our problem really wasn't moving the heat around- it was keeping the heat in the house.  Insulation has helped a lot.

On colder nights we will put a box fan on the floor in the room with the stove, aimed at the stove, to facilitate and augment the natural convection currents.   The box fan pulls cold air along the floor from the rest of the house into the stove room, and this displacement of air pushes warm air out of the top of the room and into the rest of the house.  We believe that this works- we can feel the heat rolling out of that room, and we can feel the other end of the house warm up.  

Sometimes, if we are sitting in the living room (the stove is in another room) the air displacement from the box fan is noticeable.  It feels cooler while sitting down in the living room, because the cool air is moving past us quickly.

It's pretty chilly here tonight, it's 28'F outside right now.  We are burning Turman's this evening.  The stove room is holding at 72.5'F.  The rest of the house is holding at 67'F.  (We normally keep the gas furnace set at 65'F so this is a warmer temp than we'd pay to run the gas furnace.)  

Tonight, for some reason, it finally occured to me to do the toilet paper test.  I just took a roll of toilet paper and a roll of tape and taped a strip of toilet paper in the doorway of each room of the house.  I turned the box fan OFF so we could see the natural convection currents.  

Wow.  Wow.  Insane.  We can *see* the air moving, and it *is* moving.  A lot.  NEWSFLASH:  HEAT IS MOVING ITSELF THROUGH THE HOUSE ON ITS OWN.  I am now more convinced than ever that the best thing _*we*_ can do is hang onto the BTUs rather than trying to move them aggressively from room to room.  

The air movement on its own, without the box fan assist, is pretty impressive.  Gonna check it again with the box fan running, but given this visual, I'm going to leave the box fan off more than on, I think.


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## briansol (Nov 29, 2013)

Try putting the fan in the far end of the cold side of the house to push cold air towards the stove.


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2013)

briansol said:


> Try putting the fan in the far end of the cold side of the house to push cold air towards the stove.



LOL, but then I'd be in between the cold air from the fan and the stove!  

How are you, Brian?  Long time no type at.  Did you get your (kitchen) stove burner worked out vs. a pressure canner?

I will try the fan at the other end of the house- why not?


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## briansol (Nov 29, 2013)

No, I never got that outdoor burner.....  just did a lot of high acid on the water bath this year.


The idea is to get the cold air out of the corners and replaced with warm air.  it should only be cold for a little while.


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## St_Earl (Nov 29, 2013)

some folks (me included) do the pushing cold air toward the stove by placing the fan just outside the 'stove room" blowing in.
fan at floor level. you will feel the warm air subsequently being displaced /pushed out of the stove room.
it's somewhat surprising how much more effective it is to push the warm air out as compared to sucking it out.

i use 2 vornados up high (one aimed at the next) to shoot the warm air back toward the back bedroom along the top of the convection loop.
since the warm air is being fed to the first one in the stove room door arch, it's working to push the air where i want it too.
if it's only a little cold, we may skip the floor fan blowing in. as then the reduced performance meets the need better as we are aiming at a pretty much constant temp back there. it's easy to get it too warm for my wife.
but when it gets to zero and below, it's all fans on deck.

i'm able to regulate the temp in the back bedroom in just a few minutes this way.

just play around with it.
you'll find what works best for you and your layout.

if you could do the floor fan from all the way back, it would do the job on it's own.
we just have concerns and obstructions that make my variation on the theme work better for all our specific needs and layout.


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## Pellet-King (Nov 29, 2013)

briansol said:


> No, I never got that outdoor burner.....  *just did a lot of high acid on the water bath* this year.
> 
> 
> The idea is to get the cold air out of the corners and replaced with warm air.  it should only be cold for a little while.


 
Must be a new way to get high


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## Madcodger (Nov 29, 2013)

You mentioned "holding onto BTUs".  Bingo!  More people need to focus on this.  We pay for energy production no matter how we produce it.  The less we need to produce, the less we spend - period!


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## newbieinCT (Nov 29, 2013)

This thread is motivating! Thank you - I needed that today...  
We have to insulate and we are trying to figure out what to do (pick a company, cellulose vs foam, etc) but posts like this push me to figure it out quicker! (Well, that and the cold temps....). It's hard to spend the money on insulation but reading these posts about the difference it makes with good insulation pushes me to get it done quicker! Thank you


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 29, 2013)

Holding onto the BTU's interesting who would have thunk of that.

If you visit the heat loss calculator at builditsolar.com you can play with the numbers one of the numbers I suggest everyone play with is the air exchange numbers.  Those should scare the clothing off of most people.


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2013)

Pellet-King said:


> Must be a new way to get high



We were all posting pictures of our pellet stoves burning during a particularly cold night last year.  In the middle of that thread, I posted a picture entitled, "Meanwhile, at the other end of the house," showing my 22 qt. Mirro pressure canner on the stove top.  (Yeah, it was throwing out some BTUs of its own.)   A portion of the thread and its participants branched off into pressure canning, and stove tops, and stove types, and watts vs. joules, and the wattage of various burners, and the amount of energy needed to bring a big canner up to pressure, etc.

I tend to wander away from this forum in the summer time, so this is the first time this year, *I think*, that Brian and I have typed at each other.  Brian was having a difficult time getting his stove burner to bring his pressure canner up to pressure, IIRC.  We use pressure canning to put steam under pressure to achieve a higher processing temperature than can be achieved by boiling water- which by the function of turning water into steam, will never achieve a higher temperature than 212'F.  Pressure canning is used to process low acid foods- foods in which acid levels are too low to mitigate the growth of bacteria and molds.  We basically autoclave that food in a pressure canner to kill all the bad stuff that could cause the food to spoil.

High acid foods contain enough acid, either naturally or we add acid in the form of high acid ingredients (vinegar for instance) according to specific, approved recipes, that the acidity of the food prevents pathogens from growing in it while it's sealed in the jar.  It's important to use FDA tested and approved recipes to achieve a high enough level of acidity- because one is using this chemistry to preserve the food.  High acid foods can be processed in a boiling water bath- so one's stove burner simply needs to be powerful enough to boil water.

Briansol, in retrospect, we may have gotten too far into the weeds about that burner last year.  If the burner is strong enough to boil water, then you should be able to bring your canner up to pressure- because basically all you are doing with the pressure canner, after it is properly vented, is boiling water to make steam but keeping a portion of that steam trapped in the canner for enough time by PARTIALLY obstructing the outlet with the appropriate weight to build up that many pounds of pressure in the canner...

... and WE'RE OFF!  Herein begins the discussion of joules vs. watts vs. boiling water vs. stove burners vs. canners, 2013/2014!


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2013)

I think that at the end of the day we will always deal with conduction cold/bridge cold in this house, with the brick/block/lathe/plaster walls.  Right now the interior walls are COLD.  If we had it to do over, we would have gone looking for a pellet stove that puts out more BTUs.  Yes, it burns more pellets, but we really could use more heat to battle the conductive cold.  I guess we could trade the Napoleon for a bigger stove... just haven't done it so far.  We are working on the other side of the equation right now, hanging on to what we've got. 

We can't blow insulation into these walls (at least not as far as I know) and other than working on the crawl space and/or skim coating the outside of the house (I don't know the name of the product, I just know that this was one suggestion) there's not many other places we can go with this house in terms of insulation.  We have already insulated the exterior perimeter electrical outlets and switches, and that worked so well that we recently insulated the interior outlets and switches.  Attic has a radiant barrier tented on the ceiling joists, original rock wool between the floor joists, R19 batting laid in between the floor joists (in good shape) and fresh R30 batting rolled out perpendicular to that.  Ceiling fixtures in the house, leading to the attic, are tight.

While we can see NO WATER from this house, FEMA has redrawn the flood maps and we are now in a flood plain.  =/ =/ (Long story.)  FEMA would not take kindly to us sealing the crawl space.  We already have R19 insulation under the floor.  We are investigating ways to add more insulation without sealing the crawl and running afoul of FEMA.

In the end, should we wish to be warmer in very cold winters, it might mean swapping out for a bigger stove and burning more pellets, but we have a few more places in the house that we could fine tune, I think.  A little caulk here, a little caulk there...  mebbe something else we can do with the crawl space...


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## rowerwet (Nov 29, 2013)

clear plastic over the windows even more modern ones helps


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## P38X2 (Nov 29, 2013)

Great point on NEWER windows leaking. While being "contractor" grade, the specs on the glass AND air infiltration on my windows are very good. However, through the 7 years of use, the weatherstripping has become compressed in a way it cannot rebound from. Bottom line is it's a chitty design that the company (Alliance) cut corners on to save money. Some of my windows leak air badly enough that I will have to take steps to stop it. My previous home had 25 year old Anderson windows that didn't leak air...at least not enough to be measured using a "hand" dyno. Here's a pic of a gap in one of the windows. Notice the inspiration behind NOT using a humidifier any more?
	

		
			
		

		
	




Back on topic....while using fans to assist the EXISTING natural convection currents in your home is generally the rule, DON'T assume because you identified the currents using incense smoke or TP, that is the BEST solution to moving the air. For a few seasons now, I've been blowing cold air coming down the stairs from the 2nd floor of my colonial back TOWARDS the stove. This worked very well but there was always a cold breeze blowing across the room that gets used the most. I finally got sick of this and turned the fan towards the dining room, AWAY from the stove, and it did wonders in evening out the temps throughout the house AND eliminating the cold air across the living room. The natural convection current isn't set in stone in some cases. With a little fan assistance, I was able to set up a new convection current that worked far better than the original one. Try it out if you're in a 2 story house with a staircase down the middle.


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## jimfrompa (Nov 29, 2013)

Excellent discussion.  This is our first year with a pellet stove and I was worried about getting the heat to the opposite side of the house as well as upstairs.  The Mt. Vernon AE is at the far end of the house in the living room with the bedrooms at the opposite end.  There is an open stairway to the second floor with one big room.  I have my living room set at 77 with 4 degree differential.  The most distant bedrooms on the first floor stay at 70 - 71 degrees.  Several days ago the low here in PA was 17.  The entire house was comfortable - the Mt. Vernon is rated at 50,000 BTU's.  I was told by a friend that if I crack a window in the most distant part, the warm air would find that window and the whole house, in effect, would act like a chimney - said warm air always replaces cold air.  I've tried it for a few minutes and did not find that it worked.  Maybe I need to let it cracked longer.  I will try the fan solution - pointing a floor fan towards the stove room and see if the temps in the back rooms rise.


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## briansol (Nov 29, 2013)

That will just draw in more cold air...


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## ChandlerR (Nov 29, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> There are numerous discussion threads on this forum about moving heat from one room to the next when using our wood burning appliances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Beca, as always, your posts are thought provoking..  I was just mentioning to my wife, who's sitting next to me, that my feet were cold. Odd. I don't remember having cold feet before.  Now before you get into a medical issue, I mean the kind of cold that feels like a cold draft.  The room the stove is in is super insulated and most of the rest of my house is as well insulated as you can get with a 200 year old house.  That said, there is always a draft of cold air coming from the back rooms but where I sit, I usually can't feel it.  I was getting all excited to TP my house when I remembered that we had removed the fan we have sitting on the floor at the entrance to this room because of all our Thanksgiving company.  Could that have made a difference? After all, I would be INCREASING the flow of cold air to the stove.  Well, after putting the fan back on the floor and turning it on, no more draft.  Weird how the airflow works.  I'm happy and my dog's happy because he sits in front of the fan all year round.  (I did see if there was a difference with him laying in front of the fan and not...no difference.)  I think I'll still hang some TP around the house just to see.


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2013)

Jimfrompa, the whole "open window acts as a chimney and draws heat to that end of the house" should work, technically, but as Briansol says, the heated air that goes out of the window will create negative pressure- the air that goes out of the window will have to be replaced somehow.  It won't be replaced by your pellet stove- the combustion side of things should be a closed system if you have an Outside Air Kit, an OAK, installed on it.  Stove draws in its combustion air through the OAK, uses it for combustion, expels the exhaust gases out of the combustion side vent into your chimney or out of your direct vent and out of the house.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  

If you don't have an OAK, then your stove is drawing combustion air in through every tiny gap and air leak in your house to take the place of the volume of air that the stove is sucking up as combustion air, then sending out of the exhaust vent pipe.  

The convection, or room air, side of the stove draws air in from the room, sends it through the heat exchange system to get heated up, then pushes that volume of air, now heated, back into the room from whence it came.  Convection currents send that warm air rotating around your room and your house but no volume of air needs to be replaced from this process.

Aside from that, if you open a window at the other end of the house, the heat will travel to that window and out of it, certainly, because as you say, heat flows to cold.  The volume of air that flows out of the window will need to be replaced, so cold air from outside will come in through every crack and leak into your house to fill that volume. 

If you don't have an OAK hooked up to your stove, then cold air is already coming into your house to replace the air your stove is taking out of the house for combustion.  If you open a window in this situation, you are giving that replacement air a superhighway into your house.

If you do have an OAK, then the open window is letting heated air out, and cold air will come in through other gaps in the house to replace it.

I am no expert on wood stoves- my knowledge is second hand and quite dated.  I remember old school wood stoves from the 70s and 80s.  I don't remember any wood stoves that had their own OAK (although, apparently, many now do.)  Of course that big ol' wood stove fire was drawing air from the room for combustion- and it was putting out big blasting radiant heat.  What happened in that situation, and I can attest to this from other people's houses at the time- the area right around that big honkin' radiant chunk of metal wood stove was *very* warm.  In the further reaches of the house, remote from the wood stove, cold air from outside was flowing into every gap in the house- so while the area right around the wood stove was hot as blazes, you could see your breath in the upstairs back bedroom.

My recollection was that people with wood stoves opened windows because the wood stove was cranking out too many BTU's for that day's weather.  An open window in the house may have been a safer solution than trying to burn the old school wood stoves too low- creosote in the chimney from gases that cooled too quickly.  In that case, open the window in the back bedroom upstairs, try to draw some of the excess heat in that direction.  

But that is all ancient memories from a person who wasn't directly in charge of the wood stove at that time.  

Pellet stove heat is much "gentler."  It puts out BTU's but much less per hour, usually, than a wood stove.  We have to hang on to 'em when we make 'em!  That's why people recommend a fan pointed at the stove- to give a little boost to the natural convection currents- although as other posters have noted, other solutions may work better for them in their individual configurations.


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2013)

"I was just mentioning to my wife, who's sitting next to me, that my feet were cold."  ChandlerR, it's a little late in the game for cold feet.  I'm just sayin'.  

"I remembered that we had removed the fan we have sitting on the floor at the entrance to this room because of all our Thanksgiving company"  It's amazing how putting the fan in even a slightly different place changes the currents all around.

"(I did see if there was a difference with him laying in front of the fan and not...no difference.)"   I would do the *exact same thing.*  I am not kidding.  I would.  HEY A 75 LBS. DOG HAS SOME DISPLACEMENT!

"I think I'll still hang some TP around the house just to see."  The TP game is fun!  It's really cool to see how much air is moving... it blew my mind.  I had no idea that the natural convection currents were moving that much air around our house. 

So all over the world tonight, Hearth.com members are roaming about their homes with rolls of toilet paper and rolls of tape, taping strips of toilet paper up in doorways to look at air flow...  and geeking out over it...  but some members will figure out how to optimize their convection currents and there will be goodness in this!

Rowerwet and P38X2, this circa 1958/1959 house had replacement windows when we purchased it in 2006.  That much was done.  I *clearly* remember the home inspector standing beside the house, noting that it is authentic brick and block construction and that it has no wall insulation but that it does have mass.  I find myself wishing that I knew then what I know now.  We may or may not have bought this house on that factor but knowing what that meant, really, would have helped us have a better idea of what we'd need to do and even what could be done in terms of utility cost savings.  As it is, our utility bills are quite reasonable, so I shouldn't complain.

We are returning from our son and daughter in law's home, a house in a cooler part of the state, in the mountains.  Their house is 1940's vintage, so it's at least 10 years older than our house, perhaps almost 20 years older than our house.  Their HVAC thermostat is set higher than ours- baby in the house- but I was amazed at how much warmer their house felt- and not just by thermostat heat.  Even though their walls are plaster, their walls aren't cold, and that makes a difference.  They also, apparently, based on a cursory examination today, do not have big gaping air spaces around their electrical fixtures (outlets and switches) where they fit into the walls. The plaster edges around some of our electrical outlet boxes had chunks missing; we had to repair edges so that the insulating inserts would be effective.  Even then some of the holes around the boxes were huge.  We should probably get some spray foam insulation and put it around the boxes themselves- but I want to be very, very careful and get good information so we don't start a fire in our walls.  =0 =0 <=3 =8X  The exterior of their home is all brick as well, and their interior walls are plaster.  I don't know what's going on inside their walls but their walls are not cold to the touch like ours.  Maybe their house was amenable to blown in insulation and a former owner had it done?  Maybe they keep their home warmer all the time, so the walls have absorbed that heat?  I don't know.

Evidently our house was built during that sweet spot when energy to heat homes was cheaper than building materials...? 

Our pellet stove puts out max 43k BTUs and we have to work hard to spread those BTUs out around the house before they dissipate.  Or whatever BTUs do.  Wherever BTUs go to die.  In my house.  BTUs go to my house to die. 

Geez, that's just sad. 

Now I want a big honkin' Harman.


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2013)

P.S. Rowerwet and P38X2, yeah, we did have to put additional weather stripping on one of our replacement windows- a casement window in which the original stripping is integrated.  The original stripping is still OK, and we couldn't detect a direct draft, but the area still felt cold.  We added some weather stripping and we can feel a difference.

Otherwise, most of the windows in the house are outfitted with cell shades (we have vinyl blinds on the window over the sink in the kitchen and the window in the laundry room for ease of cleaning) and we have curtains over the cell shades in all but one room.  In that room, the cell shades cover both the window and the frame (high slider with no sill.)  The room doesn't get direct sunlight so other than a minimal additional R value, I don't know what curtains over those cell shades would do for us.   Where the cell shades sit in deep window frames, and there's a tiny gap in between the cell shade and the window frame, we can feel a bit of conduction/convection cold from the glass through this tiny little gap on very cold nights.  We put butt ugly thermal curtain panels over those windows and it does help.

It's funny, this conversation came up over Thanksgiving dinner.  My father in law, an engineer by trade, was commenting that the R factor in all windows is contextual.  The R value of replacement windows may be double the R value of original/old school windows, but for most windows, he say, you are talking about increasing a value of R3 to R6.  It's still like having a huge hole in the side of your house.  Made me glad that we invested in cell shades and butt ugly thermal curtain panels.


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## Sniz (Nov 29, 2013)

^ windows generally are not rated by R value, at least not in the trade. and yup, the best window is nowhere as good as an insulated wall. Not even close.

I work for Andersen fyi


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## becasunshine (Nov 29, 2013)

Sniz said:


> ^ windows generally are not rated by R value, at least not in the trade. and yup, the best window is nowhere as good as an insulated wall. Not even close.
> 
> I work for Andersen fyi



I am woefully ignorant about this.  =(  How are windows rated?  Most of the windows in this house are Regal replacements, I believe they are standard issue, not their top of the line.  I could be wrong about this but my impression is that the available upgrades are mostly about latches, etc. rather than insulation value.  A few of our windows are sliders and casements and those are another brand... Skyline?  I think?   They do not appear to leak. 

It was cold around the casement, so we added some weather stripping- it seems to help.  

At any rate, we have swaddled up the windows.  I don't think the windows are our primary problem right now.  I think our problem is no wall insulation and perhaps a slightly undersized stove.


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## Madcodger (Nov 30, 2013)

Windows are primarily rated via 1) U-factor, which is the inverse of an R factor and 2) Solar Heat Gain Coefficient (SHGC, or the amount of heat they allow in as infrared).

The other thing most people ignore is the installation of windows and doors using modern materials and techniques.  You wouldn't believe the number of contractors who use neither.  The window looks good, but leaks excessive amounts of air due to poor technique for installation (seen around the trim, not the window itself, although many people blame the window).  In fact, new windows should normally be near the bottom of one's list of improvements from a cost perspective.  Caulk (for existing windows) should be near the top.

To learn more about windows, here is a link to an excellent article from Fine Homebuilding magazine:
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/understanding-energy-efficient-windows.aspx


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 1, 2013)

Beca your FIL is correct about the effect of a new versus old window and if you look around a (double pane) window is basically an air gap and surface air films the insulation value is pitiful compared to wall even a standard plastered inside brick wall outside.  However taking the R value from 3 to 6 is a huge heat loss reduction when lots of window area is involved or the difference between inside and outside temperatures is large.  Total heat loss is proportional to the (temperature difference divided by the r-value) multiplied by the area of the surface.  Doubling the surface area doubles the heat loss, doubling the temperature difference doubles the heat loss, doubling the r-value halves the heat loss.

Any air infiltration is even more problematic.

There is a special heat loss calculator provided by hearth.com member GaryGary that allows one to calculate the energy reduction possible (he has a number of them on his site www.builditsolar.com).

He has a section that is called the half program where he lays out projects that can under the correct conditions cut one's energy consumption in half.

There are a ton of ideas on that site or pointed to by that site, it is well worth the time spent there reading.


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## becasunshine (Dec 1, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Beca your FIL is correct about the effect of a new versus old window and if you look around a (double pane) window is basically an air gap and surface air films the insulation value is pitiful compared to wall even a standard plastered inside brick wall outside.  However taking the R value from 3 to 6 is a huge heat loss reduction when lots of window area is involved or the difference between inside and outside temperatures is large.  Total heat loss is proportional to the (temperature difference divided by the r-value) multiplied by the area of the surface.  Doubling the surface area doubles the heat loss, doubling the temperature difference doubles the heat loss, doubling the r-value halves the heat loss.
> 
> Any air infiltration is even more problematic.
> 
> ...



Smokey, I'm going to check that site out thoroughly.  

I've typed out our house configuration a million times on this web site- sorry Regulars, Admins and Mods!  My house is probably engraved on your retinas by now!  but we are *still* working on efficiency here.

The windows are the windows.  It's not worth it to us at this stage in the process to rip them out and replace them with different windows with a bit more efficiency.  We've put cell shades on them, curtains in some rooms where the cell shades cover the entire window and the frame, butt ugly thermal curtain panels on windows where the shades sit in the frames and there's a tiny gap on either side of the cell shade.

This evening we are going to begin caulking up some gaps around the perimeter of the floor.  The hardwoods have been sanded to be refinished a couple of times, and the house has settled, causing a gap in between the quarter round, the baseboards, and the floors in some places.  I swore I was feeling a draft coming in through those gaps.  At first I thought I was being ridiculous- really?  But then it got cold early this year, and we've sealed up a bunch of other things- making those drafts sort of stand out on their own.

I was not being ridiculous- it's quite real.  I looked it up online and I'm not the only person on Google complaining about this problem.  The recommendation?  Caulk.  I believe Madcodger and I discussed caulking around the floor perimeter on another thread- or was it this one?   Anyway, IT BEGINS TODAY, MADCODGER- THE EXPERIMENT IN CAULKING  BASEBOARDS. 

My husband hates caulking- but he's doing this to make me happy.  

In other news- the tops of the walls appear to have sill plate or something finishing them off where they meet the attic, so at least the walls aren't acting like little chimneys.  

OK, now I have to go wipe down some baseboards so my husband can caulk.  It's the least I can do.


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## EZsteve (Dec 1, 2013)

Ok so I will pipe in with my two cents about moving heat around my house. So every year I forget what works best and mess with it until I get it right.I have 12ft ceilings I'm my bed room and if I do nothing it will 74 in my living room and 61 in the bedroom. My house is wide open rancher for the most part. My bedroom is right off the living room and can be 12 degrees different easily. Every year I try moving the heat with ceiling fans and it never works. Even though I hate the noise and the cold air blowing in to the living room it is the only way to heat up my bedroom. Small 8in fan at bottom of the door blowing into the living room from bedroom can get the bedroom with in two degree of the rest of house. Works like a champ.


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## becasunshine (Dec 1, 2013)

EZsteve said:


> Ok so I will pipe in with my two cents about moving heat around my house. So every year I forget what works best and mess with it until I get it right.I have 12ft ceilings I'm my bed room and if I do nothing it will 74 in my living room and 61 in the bedroom. My house is wide open rancher for the most part. My bedroom is right off the living room and can be 12 degrees different easily. Every year I try moving the heat with ceiling fans and it never works. Even though I hate the noise and the cold air blowing in to the living room it is the only way to heat up my bedroom. Small 8in fan at bottom of the door blowing into the living room from bedroom can get the bedroom with in two degree of the rest of house. Works like a champ.



Steve, do you have a ceiling fan in that lofted bedroom?  That may help as well...


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## EZsteve (Dec 1, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Steve, do you have a ceiling fan in that lofted bedroom?  That may help as well...


Yes..but for some reason it does nothing. That is why I try every year an fail. I would love to use the ceiling fans in the bedroom and living room. I have tried every configuration ...one blowing up and one blowing down and vise versa... both up and both down..but in the end they both have to be off , with just the small fan at doorway. Its the only thing that works.


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## becasunshine (Dec 1, 2013)

EZsteve said:


> Yes..but for some reason it does nothing. That is why I try every year an fail. I would love to use the ceiling fans in the bedroom and living room. I have tried every configuration ...one blowing up and one blowing down and vise versa... both up and both down..but in the end they both have to be off , with just the small fan at doorway. Its the only thing that works.



We have to use a box fan sitting in the floor of the room with the stove, pointed into the room/at the stove.   That's what works for us in terms of facilitating the natural convection.  Cold air at the floor is pushed into the room with the stove; warm air at the top of that room is pushed out.  The volume of cold air displaced by the fan pushing cold air into the room with the stove encourages the heated air above to move in the circle to fill that void.  So, I agree- a ceiling fan would not facilitate that movement.

I was wondering if the ceiling fan could perhaps push the heat that's gathering at the top of that 12' ceiling back down into the room.  ???  We have 8' ceilings in this house so we don't have to do that here.  I completely agree with you- in terms of moving the heat room to room, ceiling fans have not worked for us.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 1, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> We have to use a box fan sitting in the floor of the room with the stove, pointed into the room/at the stove.   That's what works for us in terms of facilitating the natural convection.  Cold air at the floor is pushed into the room with the stove; warm air at the top of that room is pushed out.  The volume of cold air displaced by the fan pushing cold air into the room with the stove encourages the heated air above to move in the circle to fill that void.  So, I agree- a ceiling fan would not facilitate that movement.
> 
> I was wondering if the ceiling fan could perhaps push the heat that's gathering at the top of that 12' ceiling back down into the room.  ???  We have 8' ceilings in this house so we don't have to do that here.  I completely agree with you- in terms of moving the heat room to room, ceiling fans have not worked for us.




It can push it down to some degree and in doing so it can interfere with other air movement in the room.  Sort of like people punching multiple holes in a stove room ceiling but not providing something  a bit further away for the cold air to fall down thus completing the convection loop.  Having the fans attempt to send the hotter air against the ceiling works to a small degree (depends upon how well the ceiling is insulated) since the natural movement would be up provided there is a corresponding natural down.   Large ceiling fans can work against each other especially if you can't run them a very low speeds.


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## shore72 (Dec 3, 2013)

Hello, folks-complete newbie here, and this looks like a very helpful thread (and forum in general.) We just received a used Englander 25-PDVC from a friend, and are trying to decide which room to install it in. My wife is concerned that if we put it in the living room it will run us out of there. The next best option is a rarely used dining room. Closest to the center of the house would seem like a good idea but that would require a pretty long vertical stack, which I've been told isn't a good idea. Anyway, any comments regarding this little stove overheating us (or not) are welcome.


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## becasunshine (Dec 4, 2013)

shore72 said:


> Hello, folks-complete newbie here, and this looks like a very helpful thread (and forum in general.) We just received a used Englander 25-PDVC from a friend, and are trying to decide which room to install it in. My wife is concerned that if we put it in the living room it will run us out of there. The next best option is a rarely used dining room. Closest to the center of the house would seem like a good idea but that would require a pretty long vertical stack, which I've been told isn't a good idea. Anyway, any comments regarding this little stove overheating us (or not) are welcome.



As far as putting that Englander in your living room with you, my personal opinion is that it won't run you out of the room.  Pellet stoves aren't like wood stoves in that regard.  The heat is a lot more gentle.  If anything at all bothers you in the living room, it will be the blower/convection fan noise.  Unless the fan is really noisy, you'll probably get used to that too.  We keep our Napoleon's convection fan set at about midway on the dial.  I don't think it's too loud.

Lots of people on the forum have their pellet stoves in their living rooms or dens with them.

Your Englander 25-PDVC is rated to heat up to 1500 sq. ft.  Our Napoleon is rated to heat up to 2000 sq. ft.   Our house is 1410 sq. ft. We are just getting to the point where, with enough attic  insulation and caulk and spray foam insulation and cell shades and thermal curtains on the windows, that the Napoleon will carry our entire house comfortably by itself.  It's not the Napoleon's fault.  We are finally getting our heads wrapped around just how drafty this 54 year old house really was.

We would have put our Napoleon in the living room with us but the layout of the room (windows, exterior door, interior doorways, etc.) just wasn't conducive to it.   Our Napoleon sits in a bedroom on one corner of the house that we converted into a den.  We typically sit in the living room, just across the hallway from the room in which the stove resides.

If anything, we were a little too cool in the living room on the coldest of nights.  We have been working on this in increments and I think we are *finally* getting on top of it. 

We are supposed to have a real winter this year- I think you'll be warm and cozy with your new to you Englander.  Congratulations!  Englander's customer service is legendary.  One of their service engineers, Mike Holton, is a regular on this board.  His forum handle is stoveguyesw.   He's a great asset to this community- he's an invaluable source of knowledge and experience and he's always willing to help. 

Enjoy your new stove!


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## Madcodger (Dec 4, 2013)

Where you place it depends to a large degree on room size, layout of rooms, etc.  If you can post a room layout with rough sizes we might be able to provide more info.  We have ours in a LR that's about 26x15 with a half cathedral ceiling.  Doorway into it is 6' wide.  Heats much of that entire floor, and room is incredibly comfortable, about 2 degrees warmer than rest of that floor.  Perfect for sitting and watching TV or reading.


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## shore72 (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks for the quick help-I'll have to work on drawing a little diagram. My wife & I both grew up in houses with woodstoves and can well recall how uneven the heat can be. Our house was built in 1950; both of the rooms this stove will work in are chopped up with lots of windows and doorways. 2 of my 3 choices would actually be in front of a window, venting straight out underneath the sill. Our house is about 2000 sq ft total, but we are only trying to heat about 1/2 of that. I've actually never seen/heard any pellet stove run!


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## becasunshine (Dec 4, 2013)

shore72 said:


> Thanks for the quick help-I'll have to work on drawing a little diagram. My wife & I both grew up in houses with woodstoves and can well recall how uneven the heat can be. Our house was built in 1950; both of the rooms this stove will work in are chopped up with lots of windows and doorways. 2 of my 3 choices would actually be in front of a window, venting straight out underneath the sill. Our house is about 2000 sq ft total, but we are only trying to heat about 1/2 of that. I've actually never seen/heard any pellet stove run!



Hey, check the local codes on venting below a window. There are specific clearances from the vent to any opening into the house:  windows, crawl space vents, vents of any type, mechanical vents, etc.  There are also clearances to flammables, to the ground, to public walkways, and to gas and propane sources. The stove's owners manual has a lot of information about stove placement, but there are local codes as well.

It would be a real bummer to cut a hole through your house in a spot that's not recommended due to safety reasons, or that is not up to code.

You can probably find an owner's manual for your stove online- that's a good place to start.  Your county or city gov't offices maybe could help as well.

P.S.  You know that you can plug that baby in and turn on the blower before you install it *anywhere* to get an idea of how loud the fan will be, sitting in the room with you.


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## shore72 (Dec 4, 2013)

I'm glad you mentioned about the window issue-dumb thing is, I did find the manual online last night (England has a great website) and saw what it said about clearances. For some reason it didn't click in my head about that issue in my case. That really narrows it down for me.


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## becasunshine (Dec 5, 2013)

You might want to start a thread to ask about possibilities.   We went with a direct vent; we have as good of a situation as it gets for a direct vent, and we were in a position to give up a bedroom/change that room into a den to accommodate a stove.  If a direct vent limits your choices too much, you may be able to use a traditional vertical rise with a chimney- not a masonry chimney, but a chimney made out of whatever clad level pipe is appropriate.  

These 1950s houses are great in some respects:  they aren't ridiculously super-sized and it is possible to heat them with a stove.  Our construction is awesome.  We had two layers of shingles peeled off of this house to replace the roof when we bought it and the roofers didn't find a single rotted board.  We've had to replace a few subfloor boards in our renovations, but in both places, the bathroom and the threshold by the back door, the damage was caused by water leaking into places where it shouldn't have been.  We've not found a single board that has failed due to normal wear, after over 50 years.  

On the other hand...  insulation wasn't as big of a deal back then, so there's not an abundance unless you add it, and the rooms do tend to be smaller, and the floor plans a bit chopped up.  

Never say never, however, it can be done!


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## Countryboymo (Dec 5, 2013)

Talking about retaining BTU's and heat loss made me remember my energy audit a few years back.  I had horrible duct leakage and poor duct design and quite a few air leaks.  The most memorable is when he put a cfm hood on the recessed lights and checked the air leakage.  It was an average of 4 cfm per light with 14 lights which doesn't seem alarming  until you start calculating.

56cfm total almost one cubic foot per second.

3360 cubic feet per hour

80,640 cubic feet per day.

The wind speed was 5-10 mph which is below average wind speed here at time of testing.

I have no codes so I went to walmart and purchased 1.50 styrofoam coolers and a knife and covered and caulked the lights with styrofoam safe caulk since the bulbs are all cfl or LEDs and the heat is not a factor.  I also purchased air sealing trim rings off ebay since they were much cheaper than home depot or lowes.  I left bricks on the coolers that did not need caulk and just put some weatherstripping on the bottom.  

I had someone argue that some air was probably coming in and other air going out so it might be 40k per day.  Who cares?  Air is leaving that shouldn't be and its an easy fix and even if it is 40 it is still alarming.  

After fixing duct issues, sealing ductwork and a few other air leaks I dropped the air leakage so much I am able to heat the house with 10kw of heat strips instead of 20 and satisfy the stat.  I replaced the 3.5 ton heat pump with a 3 ton but did upgrade from a 13 seer to a 15 with demand defrost and much better numbers.  

House was built in 2006 and is 1800 sqft with a partially insulated basement.  I can't imagine the impact of sealing and adding insulation to a older home.  

I already had added attic insulation before the audit and just have the basement to finish insulating.  I am still in the sealing mode.  

In the heating months I leave the air handler in circulation mode  and it runs at 200 cfm to help keep the air moving from room to room and circulate the warm air coming up from the castile in the basement.  When it gets below freezing I run the castile on medium and when it gets much below 20 I run it on high.  The thermostat has an outdoor temp sensor and shuts the heat pump off below 10 degrees and runs solely on strips and the pellet eater which is usually on when it is that cold.  

Every dollar and hour that is spent sealing will pay off twice as fast as time insulating.  Insulating is a huge factor but I don't care if you put R50 in the attic if you are passing air through it the R value goes to the toilet.

Sealing the recessed lights cut the dust in the house in half because that air moving was sucking dust and fibers out of the insulation and attic.

Thermal imaging cameras are a must.. they do not lie and show leaks and poorly insulated areas like night and day.  

Sorry for the rant.   To see the actual numbers and images of the air moving it just shows dollar signs heading out into the atmosphere.


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## becasunshine (Dec 5, 2013)

Countryboymo said:


> Sorry for the rant.   To see the actual numbers and images of the air moving it just shows dollar signs heading out into the atmosphere.



Dude, rant away.  In fact, I'll see your rant and add another.

This is the first house we've owned in which combustion appliances are housed within the conditioned living space.  The gas furnace and the gas water heater are both in the laundry room, side by side.  They vent into a shared chimney.

During the home inspection, my father-in-law, an engineer, and the home inspector stared at the water heater vent for a good long time.  It has a horizontal traverse to the place in which it exits the wall to vent into the chimney.  It does have a vertical rise along the the length of this traverse, but it also has a bend in the pipe to accommodate the horizontal movement, and the bend is relatively close to the hood over the actual water heater.  Yadda yadda.

They did some calculations and decided that the vertical rise vs. the horizontal traverse met code, but there was talk of drafting and back drafting.  The two guys decided that the homeowner had left the window in the laundry room opened so that the water heater would draft efficiently. They recommended leaving that window cracked all the time, so that the water heater would draft, efficiently.  I noted that the laundry room bone was connected to the rest of the house bone and that the entire skeleton would freeze, or get very hot and humid depending on the season, and that the entire skeleton would likely object to the impact of a continuously opened window on the utility bills.

They then recommended that we keep the window in the laundry room opened all the time and the door to the laundry room closed all the time.

*Insert Lay Person Secret Eye Roll at Engineering-Types HERE.*

I looked around at the situation, at the room, at the house, at the water heater, at the vent pipes, and I seriously doubted that the home owner left the window in the laundry room opened so that the water heater would draft efficiently.  I decided that the homeowner had left the window open in the laundry room because she had a cat and the cat's litter box was in that room.  She left the window opened just in case Kitty dropped the Poo Bomb after she left the house.

So when we moved into the house, I parked a CO alarm in the outlet right next to, as in almost touching, the water heater and went on about my life.  The idea that the water heater's vent may not be drafting as efficiently as it should never completely left my mind, but we kept the dual powered (a/c and battery back up) CO monitor right there, and we changed the batteries twice a year, faithfully, and life went on.

The CO monitor never uttered a peep.

Of course, the house was so, ahem, "breezy" that we were self-ventilating.

Now that we are seriously, seriously sealing up this house, the idea of the water heater vent loomed larger in my mind.  First of all, we calculated the age of the two CO detectors that we have here- one in the laundry room with the furnace and the water heater, one in the stove room.  Both were over 5 years old, so we replaced them.

Then we revisited that water heater vent.  I did a "stress test" with exhaust fans running, the dryer running, the furnace running, and the water heater fired up, and it appeared to back draft- it fogged a mirror that I set next to the hood.

I called our HVAC company immediately.  They also deal with gas water heaters and they came right out.

Turns out that I didn't let the water heater run long enough before I popped the mirror up next to the hood.  Once the vent pipe heated up, the water heater drafted just fine- so well, in fact, that the HVAC company's much more sensitive CO monitors (they tested with two different types) picked up zero to negligible parts per million CO at the vent hood.  We did the mirror test again, and with the water heater (and everything else, exhaust fans, furnace, dryer) running full tilt, and the mirror did not fog.

Here's what we didn't see coming:

The *other* end of the water heater's vent pipe had become, at some point in the past, unsealed from the wall.

The terminus of the vent is tucked up in a corner on the other side of the air handler, which is on top of the furnace.  To say that I don't routinely pay a lot of attention to that remote corner of the house is an understatement.  I don't do a lot of deep cleaning behind the furnace.  I vacuum all around it, I mop the floors, etc.- there's no debris built up back there- but I don't routinely "dust the furnace" or the vent pipes where they duck behind the air handler.

Our HVAC tech was inspecting the vent pipes and all of the sudden he said, "WHOA!  LOOK AT THOSE COBWEBS!"

I'm a little particular about my house keeping, dark undersides of the furnace and air handlers not necessarily included in that compulsion, so I took exception.  "WHAT COBWEBS?  YOU FOUND COBWEBS?  STOP STARING AT MY COBWEBS!  IT'S NOT POLITE!"

HVAC Tech said, "No, not worried about the cobwebs- look at the air movement!  Your gas water heater vent has come unsealed at that end!"

So while I'm all worried about the hood end, the other end has pulled itself out of and away from the wall- enough that the combustion gases rising up the vent were causing those rogue cobwebs to flap in the breeze.

The HVAC Tech had used all the sealant in his truck but he post haste went to the plumbing supply store, bought more sealant, came right back to the house and sealed that vent.

I have no idea how much CO was spilling from that end of the vent but it couldn't have been too bad- the CO alarm never went off, and never registered any number other than zero at any time that I looked at it.

I do wonder how much of our heated and cooled conditioned air went up our chimney through the rather large gap left by the duct coming unsealed from that opening in the wall.  Even though that hole is tucked back behind the air handler there is some room for air flow back there- and it is located, unobstructed, in the conditioned envelope of the house.  It would be the equivalent of having a pretty big hole in your exterior wall- or, as my father-in-law and the home inspector said, "Leaving a window opened."

While I feel a little foolish for calling our HVAC guy, God love him, to our house to measure zero to negligible CO levels, that was a good catch, and we will probably make the cost for that service call up in short order by not sending heat up the chimney through a hole in the wall.


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## Charles1981 (Dec 5, 2013)

I have about 1800-1900 sq feet to heat. First floor is fairly open plan, bottom floor walkout is a little more boxed in. My stove is in the basement however there is a spiral stair case next to the stove with ceiling fan directly above it. I also have two floor registers over the stove between the walkout and first floor.

With the ceiling fan blowing cold air down to the basement there is a huge column of warm air shooting up through the registers.  It is about 87 in the stove room. Without power and no fans heat doesn't go upstairs (can get it up to 66-67  upstairs while it remains 87 in stove room). Turn the ceiling fan on and the upstairs will heat to 74-75. The bedrooms do need a fan blowing towards the main room/spiral staircase to warm up appropriately.

The bedroom in the walkout next to the stove will be 68 degrees while the stove room adjacent is 87. Turn on the fan and the bedroom quickly warms up to 76-77. Upstairs bedrooms don't get as warm and are downright cold without the fans blowing towards the main room. But with the fans can get to 69-70ish. Not bad.

The upstairs bedrooms are guest rooms and if we have guests over we turn on the electric baseboard heat at night to make sure they stay comfortable as they typically keep the doors closed to sleep.

Without the fans and air circulation however the house other than the stove room does not stay very comfortable.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2013)

From a heating the air stand point that per minute figure is what you pump out a lot of which you have heated and then there is the same amount that you attempt to heat because what goes out must come in via other leaks.  Most pellet devices can barely move that amount of air per minute.  Some can but a lot of units can only come close running wide open.  It is not just recessed lights that are a problem normal ceiling fixtures can have the same issues if not properly handled.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 5, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Jimfrompa, the whole "open window acts as a chimney and draws heat to that end of the house" should work, technically, but as Briansol says, the heated air that goes out of the window will create negative pressure- the air that goes out of the window will have to be replaced somehow. It won't be replaced by your pellet stove- the combustion side of things should be a closed system if you have an Outside Air Kit, an OAK, installed on it. Stove draws in its combustion air through the OAK, uses it for combustion, expels the exhaust gases out of the combustion side vent into your chimney or out of your direct vent and out of the house. Wash, rinse, repeat.


Where did you get this notion that heat flows to cold. In air movement, warmer air rises because it is lighter and cooler air sinks because it is heavier. The convections caused by this may stir the air. The warm air has no idea where the cold air or window are and has no mind to go there.

What will happen.
Most houses run at a slight negative pressure due to warm air rising through leaks around ceiling fixtures, exhaust fans and other perforations in the ceiling. As a result of that slight negative pressure, cold air will be drawn into the house.
The exception to that is if there is a prevailing wind that puts the open window on the downwind side of the house. That prevailing wind causes a low pressure that may suck air out of an open window. If that happens the pressure in the house is lowered even more and cold air will leak in somewhere else to equalize the pressure.
If you open a window in the winter, one way or another, cold air will come in.


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## becasunshine (Dec 5, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Where did you get this notion that heat flows to cold.



The Second Law of Thermodynamics?

But I agree with your description of the convection cycle, and I can see how your description of houses having an inherent negative pressure can work as well. 

In fact, it occurs to me that your description of "negative pressure" is exactly what was/is happening with this leaky old house!  (although we've sealed up every ceiling penetration that we can find and/or reach.)


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> The Second Law of Thermodynamics?
> 
> But I agree with your description of the convection cycle, and I can see how your description of houses having an inherent negative pressure can work as well.
> 
> In fact, it occurs to me that your description of "negative pressure" is exactly what was/is happening with this leaky old house!  (although we've sealed up every ceiling penetration that we can find and/or reach.)



By conduction it does and conduction is very low in most gasses.


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## becasunshine (Dec 5, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> By conduction it does and conduction is very low in most gasses.



Smokey, I'm being a little dense here.

Harvey Schneider's challenge made me think.  I've always gone with "heat flows to cold" as an explanation for a lot of things, so when he challenged the idea of an open window as a chimney and proposed another explanation, I plugged that explanation into my scenario to see how it worked.

I could see it, because we are sealing up the house to keep cold drafts from coming in.  In particular, we caulked around the perimeter of the hardwoods because I could, on the coldest days, literally feel cold air coming through those cracks.  So, if one believes in The Second Law of Thermodynamics, there has to be an explanation, because cold doesn't move to hot unless there is additional energy put into the system, or unless it is being "drawn in" by a chimney effect.

There are so many "moving parts" in a house system, even if to one's naive eye, the house appears to be sitting completely stationary.   

My husband has gone up in the attic and visually inspected each and every penetration through the ceiling that can be reached without pulling up the board flooring.  There is a strip of board flooring from side to side in the attic,  and it is blocking access to one (1) ceiling fixture.  If all of the other ceiling fixtures in the house are an appropriate guide, that one ceiling fixture should not be a problem.  It should be pretty tight.

I don't know what could be acting as a chimney in this house, although I suppose it's possible that tiny cracks and gaps that aren't readily visible to naked eye inspection (no thermal imaging) add up to a significant chimney.  What I do know is that cold did indeed flow to heat in this house because we could feel cold drafts coming into places where there were visible gaps.  

I should amend that statement above, about what could be acting as a chimney- since our HVAC Tech found the gas water heater vent unsealed from the wall, and my cobwebs flapping in the breeze, the chimney itself may have been acting as a chimney.  Imagine that!

I'm not being snarky here, not at all- please draw it out to me, the relationship between conduction and gases and The Laws of Thermodynamics- because I am literally trying to apply that stuff to solving the problem here without causing new ones (i.e. sealing up the house incorrectly, such that we end up with other problems and perhaps don't even address the original problems effectively.)

Also, this question is nagging at my brain- we went through and put insulated inserts behind all face plates to all electrical outlets and switches, both on interior and perimeter walls.  We didn't do the spray foam thingy around the outside of the electrical boxes where they sit in the wall- we just did the face plate insert thingy.  This is going to drive my husband bat poop crazy, but is there an advantage to doing both?  In one switch on an interior wall, I had to piece together some additional insert material because the gap around the box and the hole in the wall were so big.  On other holes for outlets, I did a little repair to the plaster and let it dry before putting the face plate and insert in place, because the hole was so big.

Foam plus insert seems redundant.  The Hubs hates working with that spray foam in really tight, picky, possibly visible places because it can be a mess, so I thought that the inserts made sense and less mess overall.  Now I'm reading that people do both...???  and also that some people caulk the insulated inserts in place...??? 

The only thing that could make Mr. Sunshine any happier about re-addressing all of those outlets and switches with spray foam is the possibility of addressing all of them with spray foam *and* caulk.

I think his head might explode.

Is it worth it?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2013)

Let's see exploding heads vs what might be a reasonable thing to do.  

You want the air leak stopped, so whatever does it is the right thing to do, after that you can debate about the possible conduction losses.

If you get him really agitated please have a camera rolling we just love pictures on this forum  .


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2013)

Heat (energy) is transfered by radiation (think sunshine across a vacuum) equally in all directions away from the energy body, conduction molecule to molecule always from hot to cold,  and convection (gases and liquids) prevalently by displacement normally due to pressure differences.

Personally I'm from the old school heat is a liquid that I brew in my fermenters for the long cold dark days of winter, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.  

Currently making a spiced mead.


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## becasunshine (Dec 5, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Heat (energy) is transfered by radiation (think sunshine across a vacuum) equally in all directions away from the energy body, conduction molecule to molecule always from hot to cold,  and convection (gases and liquids) prevalently by displacement normally due to pressure differences.
> 
> Personally I'm from the old school heat is a liquid that I brew in my fermenters for the long cold dark days of winter, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> Currently making a spiced mead.



The Hubs made a Baltic Porter as the Christmas Beer this year.  A few have "come out of the bottle" already.  He says it's good.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 5, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Heat (energy) is transfered by radiation (think sunshine across a vacuum) equally in all directions away from the energy body, conduction molecule to molecule always from hot to cold,  and convection (gases and liquids) prevalently by displacement normally due to pressure differences.
> 
> Personally I'm from the old school heat is a liquid that I brew in my fermenters for the long cold dark days of winter, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
> 
> Currently making a spiced mead.



At the temperatures we are dealing with radiant transfer is almost non-existent. Things need to literally glow to radiate heat in any significant amounts.
Conduction in air is almost non-existent. The molecules just aren't connected to each other tightly enough for the energy to pass from molecule to molecule (yes I know about molecule collisions tranferring energy)
The primary means of heat transfer in room temperature air is convection.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> At the temperatures we are dealing with radiant transfer is almost non-existent. Things need to literally glow to radiate heat in any significant amounts.
> Conduction in air is almost non-existent. The molecules just aren't connected to each other tightly enough for the energy to pass from molecule to molecule (yes I know about molecule collisions tranferring energy)
> The primary means of heat transfer in room temperature air is convection.



Hey, I didn't say one thing about in this particular situation I just laid out the three ways energy gets transfered.   

All bodies above absolute zero radiate, no "glowing" needed, and what constitutes a significant amount varies  .


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## Madcodger (Dec 5, 2013)

Not to step on Smokey's answer or anyone else's when they make it, but if you really want to dive into this area, Beca, here's a link to get you started:  http://www.sensiblehouse.org/nrg_heatloss.htm

The US. Dept. of Energy also has some good info, and my two favorite journals that deal with these issues often (for contractors and architects) are Fine Homebuilding and the Journal of Light Construction ("Light" meaning pretty much any residence, as opposed to a skyscraper or highway).    The bottom line is that the two things homeowners need to worry most about are 1) air infiltration and leakage and 2) losses through the construction materials themselves, but not via air to air exchanges of heat.

Air leakage / exchange (convective loss) is important because heated air that leaks out MUST be replaced, and it can only be replaced by air from outside, that is both colder and drier (or the opposite, in the summer).  The "tighter" you can make your house, they less they will occur.  If you get the house too tight (lower than 35% of the home's air being exchanged each hour for a typical family) then you need to figure out a way to bring in more fresh air and lose stale air, generally through a heat or energy recovery ventilator.  That's not normally the problem for older homes, though... Once you stop that air flow, you have done all you can do to stop convective losses.  You can't make something "more stopped", in other words, so if you have stopped the flow of air through a hole (whether that hole is something cut in the side of the house or an electrical outlet with a path to the attic through the wall stud bay), you've got that specific thing covered.  "Stopped is stopped", for CONVECTIVE losses.  But that's not true for CONDUCTIVE losses.

Conductive losses are the reason most common insulation materials are used (like blown cellulose or fiberglass, or batts) in areas like the walls and attic of a building.  These generally do very little to stop convective losses, because air just goes through them (although it may be inhibited a bit, it's not all that significant).  But they do a nice job of stopping the heat loss that occurs by the transfer of energy (heat) from one building material to another or ultimately to the outer layer of a building, where the energy (heat) is transferred to the air (which is really just the "stuff" that the outer layer is connected to).  This is what someone is referring to when the discuss the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.  If you want to boil that down in layman's terms, it just means that things will seek an equilibrium, or common point.  Because heat is really just energy, the thing with more energy (the hot thing) will lose energy to the thing with less energy (the cooler thing) until the two reach a common point (i.e, they are the same temperature).  Apologies to my physicist friends for that oversimplification, but I think it illustrates the point for this discussion...  That's why we say that heat moves to cold.  It does, even in the absence of air movement.  Insulation is designed to cut down on that conductive heat loss, and that's why we use it in buildings.  And adding more of that WILL decrease the movement of energy (heat) because it creates a barrier between materials (or between materials and the outside air) that offers resistance to the flow of that energy (heat).  It can't entirely stop it, but the more insulation you have, the more you will inhibit conductive (things touching each other, including air to a building) losses. 

So what do I ask myself when I'm trying to save energy?  What TYPE of heat loss am I primarily trying to stop with the action I'm taking?  If convective loss (air leakage) I do just enough to reliably stop the air flow.  Anything more is not helpful.  If conductive heat loss (stuff touching other stuff, including the outside world) then the more insulation I add, the better.  And I do that until adding more is not practical because it is either not physically possible, or because the financial value of doing so is greater than the savings I will reasonably gain.  Someone will now likely chime in about things like spray foam...  That's a great insulator, because it can stop the flow of air AND inhibit conductive losses (in closed cell formulations).  But given its expense, some builders will use it as an initial layer to stop air flow and get about 6-7 R value per inch of conductive insulation, and then add fiberglass or cellulose to get the remaining needed conductive insulation (R-value).  They CAN'T get more convective benefit from additional foam, because "stopped is stopped" for convection.  But conduction doesn't really have a "stop".  You just add it as long as it makes sense to do so, in the least expensive (and hopefully environmentally responsible) way you can.

Hope that helps...

Joe (Madcodger)


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> The Hubs made a Baltic Porter as the Christmas Beer this year.  A few have "come out of the bottle" already.  He says it's good.



Didn't I just see where you were bottling that a short time ago?  Where did you get your stale beer to make the porter with or is this an imitation porter?  Real porters were made from stale (old) beer at one time.  I'm going to try some old wasail recipies this year I have a couple of different ales to use.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 5, 2013)

Joe, we are just having a normal hearth.com discussion.   We welcome a good lively discussion.  It helps get the cobwebs cleared out of our former functioning gray matter.  Besides stirring the pot is what some of us do to get a discussion going.  Wait until about the first of February when we are trying to find a nice way to tell folks to actually clean their stoves instead of just the burn pot.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 5, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Hey, I didn't say one thing about in this particular situation I just laid out the three ways energy gets transfered.
> 
> All bodies above absolute zero radiate, no "glowing" needed, and what constitutes a significant amount varies  .


Didn't mean to pounce on you. Perhaps I'm a little cranky today.
I was trying to relate what I've learned from designing aircraft probe de-icers to the issues related to stove heat distribution. 
Yes, everything in the universe above absolute zero radiates energy, that is it glows. The amount of energy transferred at ambient temperatures in a home will not be noticed.


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## becasunshine (Dec 5, 2013)

I just want to pop back in here to thank everyone, each and every one of you, for participating in this thread.  I absolutely *love* this discussion.  It's making me think, in both pragmatic and theoretical realms, and I love that.  Value added, I'm picking up tips along the way, things that we can actually use- true value items.

Joe, I need to go back and read your response for detail.  I'm in the middle of a couple of things here and I need to give your response the attention it deserves.  

Smokey, I *think* it's a Baltic Porter, and we made it from a kit that we bought at a local home brew/craft brew store.  I guess then it would be a "faux porter" because there is no stale beer involved.  I will pass this information along to The Hubs (just about the time I make his head explode with spray foam and caulk) just for effect.  I will also make sure that I know what kind of beer it is.  

I have largely stopped drinking alcohol not because of any belief system or issue, but because one beer/drink/glass of wine puts me to sleep, and two beers/drinks/glasses of wine propel me straight into a hangover most of the time.  I don't even have to go to sleep and wake up to get to hung over.  =/  I find that I feel better, overall, when I don't drink alcohol at all.  

When I do have some of Hub's beer, it is *very* good!  and I do help bottle it, and I stand patiently with him at the home brew store when he chooses his kits, and I listen attentively to him discuss his ideas and his outcomes...  you get the picture.  

Harvey, interesting points- all of this talk of conductive energy transfer, radiant energy, etc.  I think it has a practical application here in a specific way:  the brick, block, lathe, plaster walls are COLD, even in the heated interior.  The interior walls in the perimeter of the house are COLD to the touch during the winter, especially during the coldest times, and during the summer during very hot spells, the interior walls on the south/southwest exposure are downright toasty.    This has to be affecting our heating and cooling costs... 

Back in a bit- please continue- I am loving this discussion!


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## Lyndon Fuller (Dec 5, 2013)

EZsteve said:


> Ok so I will pipe in with my two cents about moving heat around my house. So every year I forget what works best and mess with it until I get it right.I have 12ft ceilings I'm my bed room and if I do nothing it will 74 in my living room and 61 in the bedroom. My house is wide open rancher for the most part. My bedroom is right off the living room and can be 12 degrees different easily. Every year I try moving the heat with ceiling fans and it never works. Even though I hate the noise and the cold air blowing in to the living room it is the only way to heat up my bedroom. Small 8in fan at bottom of the door blowing into the living room from bedroom can get the bedroom with in two degree of the rest of house. Works like a champ.


I love this thread, in a lot of cities, mine being Boston MA the city comes out and does an energy audit and one thing they offer is a 75 percent rebate on insulation, also huge rebates on replacing furnaces/boilers etc , I strongly advise you checking with your local city hall before you spend >


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 6, 2013)

> all of this talk of conductive energy transfer, radiant energy, etc. I think it has a practical application here in a specific way: the brick, block, lathe, plaster walls are COLD, even in the heated interior. The interior walls in the perimeter of the house are COLD to the touch during the winter, especially during the coldest times, and during the summer during very hot spells, the interior walls on the south/southwest exposure are downright toasty. This has to be affecting our heating and cooling costs...


Of course it does. Any surface that is different in temperature from the air will set up a convection current in the air. That convection, couples the energy of the air to that of the surface. In that way it transfers heat into or out of the air. That convection is what causes drafts. If the wall is cold the draft is downwards, if the wall is warm the draft is upwards.


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## Toddvt (Dec 6, 2013)

I like to use the fans i have built in place.  Now i need to work on installing a thermostat on the pellet stove and some extra relays to turn the air handlers off and on as needed.


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## Crazy Ivan from CT (Dec 6, 2013)

rowerwet said:


> clear plastic over the windows even more modern ones helps


 That works bigtime on drafts if you cant afford to re insulate!


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## Countryboymo (Dec 6, 2013)

It has been in the teens and low 20's over the past 12 hours and my energy monitor shows two defrost cycles and other than that no heat strip use along with over a dozen heat pump cycles.  The heat pump and air handler combined draws 3.5kw on average in the winter at 240v which is a ton better than 10kw of strips.


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## becasunshine (Dec 6, 2013)

Temps are starting to drop here.  We finally fired up the stove tonight.

I pulled a few random switch plate covers, plus a couple in which I remembered that the hole in the wall was rather generous.  I bought some more spray foam today and I'll work on the larger gaps tomorrow, but for the most part, The Hubs is right:  the gaps around the electrical boxes aren't large enough to work with the spray foam.   Honestly, when I installed the insulating inserts behind the wall plates, I was working on getting through the process rather than examining each and every insert vs. the smaller gaps around the boxes.  IIRC, the inserts covered the gaps.  I only remember one box in particular where the hole in the wall was like a cave, and I had to piece together some additional material cut from overlapping inserts (double switches) to fill in the gap around the box- it is almost too big for the wall plate. I'll foam that one tomorrow.

In discussing the envelope, we realized that we'd failed to check the closet lights to see if there are big gaps around those boxes.  The Hubs is going into the attic, pull back the insulation and check those fixtures.  He's going to re-check the main fixtures up there as well.  It's been a few years since we looked at them, so he's going to check them again to make sure that we've sealed them up appropriately. 

I swear, sealing the gas water heater vent to the wall has helped with the draftiness in the house.


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## becasunshine (Dec 6, 2013)

Joe, that was a great synopsis.  We are still working on the sealing end of the equation.  I agree with you, stopped is stopped.  So we are working on stopped.  

We can't do much about the brick/block/lathe/plaster walls.  My understanding is that the construction isn't conducive to blown in insulation.  So we'll work on what we can.

The attic is sitting at R49 plus the tented (attached to the rafters) radiant barrier.  I have to admit, it's tempting (to me, anyway) to go all R-ONE THOUSAND!  R-ONE MILLION! in the attic but for our environment we are probably right about at the sweet spot for ROI with attic isulation.  

Maybe we can work on the insulation under the floor...  We are going to pull back all that insulation in the attic and in the crawl space and make sure that the ducts are sealed as well.  The ducts aren't as critical right this minute because we are using the pellet stove much more than the gas furnace, but we need to check those ducts before the cooling season.


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## becasunshine (Dec 6, 2013)

OK, question, building guys- the HVAC tech re-sealed our gas water heater vent to the plaster wall with a dark gray mud type substance that took about 45 minutes to dry.

He also put the same sealant around the top of the furnace exhaust vent because it is right underneath the water heater vent.

I should have checked this more carefully while the HVAC tech was here, but I just now checked the underside/bottom of the furnace vent- and the sealant has aged and somewhat disintegrated there as well.  There is a gap in the wall where it appears that a chunk of plaster has fallen out.

What is the name of this sealant?  We can patch this ourselves if we know what we need to use.

EDITED:  I think I've got it- furnace cement.  Furnace cement?  That's what I bought, anyway!


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## Madcodger (Dec 7, 2013)

That should do it.  Likely one tube is all you need.


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

Madcodger said:


> That should do it.  Likely one tube is all you need.



Yeah, I thought so as well- but one of our Big Box Home Improvement Stores didn't have it at all- and the other one had two buckets on their shelves, in half gallon sizes.  That, incidentally, is the same size that our HVAC service tech went out and picked up to do the initial repair (he had used the last in his truck and needed to replenish.)  

We are expecting the Arctic Blast here within 24 hours, so I purchased one of those half gallon buckets.  Thank goodness it's cheap.


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## Lake Girl (Dec 7, 2013)

Great thread folks.  Beca - sorry to hear about your block wall story.  Recommendation on the baseboard chaulking?  That is one of my big complaints with our living room - that draft at the floor/wall transition.  Plan on running masking tape on the wood flooring to keep that edge clean.  We have to redo footings of the crawl space at our house.  The sections we have redone to date are insulated more efficiently.  Guess who's job that was   It helps when it -26F like this morning.

Smokey, thanks for the builditsolar site - lots of great simple ideas for efficiencies.  With the current temps, Hubby was just mentioning again that we should have built the in-ground house at our other lot.  No electric to the site so the $10,000 that Hydro One wanted would be going to solar arrays.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 7, 2013)

Lake Girl said:


> That is one of my big complaints with our living room - that draft at the floor/wall transition.


One of the causes of cold interior walls is attic air coming down through the holes drilled for electrical wires. Plugging the holes at the top with electricians putty (a non hardening clay) can significantly reduce those drafts. It can also be used to seal leaks around ceiling fixtures.

http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-52462/Detail?gclid=COK4uonEnrsCFepQOgod3jYArQ


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## Lake Girl (Dec 7, 2013)

No attic spaces in our house but plan to start looking at those electrical fixtures, plugs, etc.  Thanks for the tip on the clay...


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

The Hubs is in the attic, gettin' crazy with the spray foam.  Me?  I'm doing just the opposite- I'm downstairs with all the windows opened and the exhaust fan in the laundry room sucking all of the stale, moist air out of the house.  Opened the cell shades today and the windows were wet.  Time to circulate some air and get some moisture out of the house, before the Arctic Blast arrives tonight.  I know, this is counter-intuitive, but I will do this at least a few more times over the winter- the air out the entire house thing.  

Also vacuuming one last time in case we lose power tonight/tomorrow.  And laundry.     We already have the kerosene stove and the Mr. Heater Tough Buddy ready.  So this means we're gonna dodge the bullet, Central VA- nothing but rain for us.  If we'd done none of these things- ICE-POCALYPSE.


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

Lake Girl said:


> Great thread folks.  Beca - sorry to hear about your block wall story.  Recommendation on the baseboard chaulking?  That is one of my big complaints with our living room - that draft at the floor/wall transition.  Plan on running masking tape on the wood flooring to keep that edge clean.  We have to redo footings of the crawl space at our house.  The sections we have redone to date are insulated more efficiently.  Guess who's job that was   It helps when it -26F like this morning.
> 
> Smokey, thanks for the builditsolar site - lots of great simple ideas for efficiencies.  With the current temps, Hubby was just mentioning again that we should have built the in-ground house at our other lot.  No electric to the site so the $10,000 that Hydro One wanted would be going to solar arrays.



LakeGirl, the caulk in between the quarter round and the hardwoods definitely seems to be helping.  

We used caulk that goes on white but dries clear.  It's barely noticeable to the eye.  It is paintable when that time comes.  I recently painted the baseboards so we should have a little bit of time on that.

I can definitely tell a difference in the draftiness.

I read recently that builders/trim finishers do not recommend caulking baseboards and quarter round to the floor.  I tried to dig around to find out why.  The only explanation I could find is that hardwoods expand and contract with temperature and moisture- so caulk can crack and separate and look like crap.  There has to be some exception for old houses, lowered floor lines due to refinishing and settling, etc.  We had to decide.  We decided on clear caulk.  The caulk we chose (latex with a silicon component, but still paintable and washable) touts "excellent flexibility" so perhaps cracking and separating won't be a huge issue in this application.

I guess that when the time comes, if it comes (and with caulk, that's probably a given) that scraping it out and replacing it will be oodles of fun- but for right now it's stopping the draft. 

We need to address our crawl space as well.  We have R19 under the hardwood floors/subfloor in the crawl space but I understand that the R value in that place needs to be higher.  

I don't think we can seal this crawl space because of the re-drawn flood plain lines.  FEMA would frown upon it, I'm afraid.

-26?  I won't complain.  I had every window in the house opened, and the whole house exhaust fan running, until about an hour or so ago.  One last airing out of the house before we get this "winter weather," whatever we get.


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

OK, BUILDING GUYS AND ENGINEERS, ANOTHER QUESTION PLEASE:

The Hubs used spray foam or caulk around the electrical boxes in the attic that he could reach.

We have four closet lights and three ceiling fans that could not be accessed through the attic.  None of these fixtures are inset.  The closet lights are the classic pull chain fixtures into which one screws a bare light bulb, which hangs down from the fixture.  The bulb can obviously dissipate its heat into the conditioned envelope below.

The ceiling fans are flush mount with a collar or a "beauty rim" that covers the base and the screws, where the base meets the ceiling.  Obviously not inset.  Both the motor and the light fixture are hanging down into the conditioned envelope of the house, where they can dissipate their heat.  There are no transformers involved in these fans.  One fan has a post-market (Hubs installed it) antenna for a wireless remote, but there is no transformer associated with this antenna.

We don't have a FLIR camera.  I asked about renting one but our local Home Depot does not stock them in the rental tool area; evidently Home Depot tool rentals in other states carry them.  =/ =/  So, without that tool, we are using the little hand held infrared thermometer to do a quick scan for air leaks.

When we shoot the IR thermometer at the place where the ceiling fan base (sans beauty rim, that was pushed down and out of the way) meets the ceiling, we can see that the temperature is slightly higher at that point in the ceiling, in each room, than it is on the rest of the ceiling. There is as much as a 4' - 5' difference in temperature, with the highest temperature right where the ceiling fan base meets the ceiling.  This is true even for fans that Hubs was able to reach and seal from the attic.  There is no transformer up in that space above the fan;  there is no light bulb up there;  there is no motor in that space either.  We have no other explanation than that the ceiling fans are acting like little chimneys and drawing conditioned air out of the house and into the attic.  Even the fans that are now sealed from above appear to be collecting and holding heat underneath this fixture- or perhaps spraying foam around the outside of the box didn't seal the fixture completely.

Interestingly enough, light fixtures such as the dining room chandelier- not, apparently, drawing air.  The temperature where the fixture base meets the ceiling is within a degree or less than the temperature of the rest of the ceiling.

The thing about the ceiling fans acting as little chimneys- not the fans themselves in terms of their function, but the actual hole through the ceiling acting as a chimney- this might be confirmed by what we saw in the attic.  When Hubs pulled back the batting insulation over the area of the ceiling fans, it was a bit dirty, and the dirt corresponded to the space between the floor boards of the attic, i.e. there was air movement at the ceiling fans.  Air was being drawn upward through the underside of that white insulation, and the insulation became discolored in a pattern that exactly matched the gaps between the floor boards directly beneath that insulation.

This pattern was not apparent in other places in the attic.

Hubs caulked around the perimeter of the light fixtures in the closets with the same clear caulk we used around the baseboards.  We couldn't think of a reason why not.

Hubs is using that gray "pool noodle" rope-like foam insulation that comes in a pre-packaged roll around the base of the ceiling fans, where they meet the ceiling.  He's stuffing that cord of insulation around the perimeter of the base, closing the gap between the base and the ceiling.

We can't think of a reason NOT to do it; the motor isn't up there, the light bulb isn't up there, there is no transformer up there.  We don't see a need to provide an escape route for heat to dissipate.

I'm asking- perhaps a few moments too late, as my husband has been diligently stuffing foam cording insulation around ceiling fan bases for the better part of an hour- if there is any safety reason why we should NOT do this?  We can't think of any reason, and there's obviously an air flow issue in those areas.

If there's a reason, please tell us.

If not, well, the house temperature has gone up one degree in the past hour, since Hubs has been stuffing "pool noodle insulation" around the bases of the ceiling fans, with nothing else running but the pellet stove.  So there's that...  BUT ONLY IF IT'S SAFE.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 7, 2013)

I would expect the temperature above any operating fixture, be it a fan or light to be higher than several inches away from the fixture on the conditioned side of the fixture because it is close to a heat source and the heat is not being dissipated through a hole in the ceiling.   I would expect the temperature to taper off the further you looked to the sides away from the center of the fixture.

As for it being safe depends upon the exact temperatures over time and the materials involved.

What happens in the case of recessed lighting is that insulating those needs to take into consideration the considerable amount of heat produced in a small space that must be dissipated.

ETA: A number of newer fixtures, some lights, and even some motors shut down when temperatures get above certain temperatures in a fixture.  I have 4 (used to be 5) three light spot fixtures that have temperature sensors.  A lot of CFLs have temperature sensors as well.


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## Bruins4877 (Dec 7, 2013)

Wow...I'm glad I found this thread.  I have been lurking it for the past few days and have done quite a bit of what has been discussed.  I'm sure the toilet paper test was discussed somewhere else on these boards, but this was the one I first saw it on.  I use those fans that are up in the corner of the doorways to move the heat from the family room (where the stove is) to the other rooms of the bottom floor.  I turned them all off to see how the natural air flow was working.  I had my fans going the wrong way so I was really moving the air against the natural flow.  Now I have all the fans going the way the natural airflow in the house and all rooms are not perfectly warm, but are certainly warmer than they were.  Since buying the house 4 years ago I have been tearing down walls to replace insulation (R-7 insulation in the walls...DOH) and windows.  I have used R-13 in the walls, then putting rigid foam up before sheet rocking.  I never thought about putting the outlet and switch foam on the interior walls, but that has been done.  Tomorrow I get out the spray foam gun and head into the attic.  My wife thinks I have a spray foam problem already, but she ain't seen nothing yet, LOL.  Thanks for everyone who has contributed to this thread.  I constantly feel drafts in this house and my wife thinks I'm crazy.  She won't think I'm crazy when we are sitting in our nice comfy WARM living room with no drafts what so ever  Thanks again....and I'll keep lurking this thread, LOL.


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> I would expect the temperature above any operating fixture, be it a fan or light to be higher than several inches away from the fixture on the conditioned side of the fixture because it is close to a heat source and the heat is not being dissipated through a hole in the ceiling.   I would expect the temperature to taper off the further you looked to the sides away from the center of the fixture.
> 
> As for it being safe depends upon the exact temperatures and the materials involved.



Smokey, I may be wrong/incomplete here, but there should be no additional heat in the interior of the fixture while the fixture is OFF, which all of the ceiling fans were this evening while we were working on them.  The wires that service the fan motor and the light kit go through a hole in the middle of the fixture, but after the connections were made between the house supply side and the fixture wires, the splices were capped and they are stowed in the box, above the plain of the ceiling.  

The insulation is the gray cord type insulation that one typically tucks into big gaps, say around thresholds, big gaps around window frames, etc.  In this application, it is in between the surface of the ceiling and the round base of the ceiling fan where it abuts the ceiling.  The screws that connect the fan to the bracing in the ceiling go through this base, and into the bracing.  The bracing is attached to joists in the ceiling.  BUT- the take home message is that the gray cord insulation is in the conditioned space of the house, on the "living space side" of the ceiling fan, in between the surface of the ceiling and that round base.   And then the beauty rim snaps over that base to hide the screws.  

Three ceiling fans could not be accessed from the attic at all.  This was the only way that we could see to seal them.  ???  Is there another way?  

We couldn't see a fire hazard here because there's nothing producing heat in that space- the motor and the light fixture are below all of this and in the living space.  BUT if we are wrong, please tell us!


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

Bruins4877 said:


> Tomorrow I get out the spray foam gun and head into the attic.  My wife thinks I have a spray foam problem already, but she ain't seen nothing yet, LOL.  Thanks for everyone who has contributed to this thread.  I constantly feel drafts in this house and my wife thinks I'm crazy.  She won't think I'm crazy when we are sitting in our nice comfy WARM living room with no drafts what so ever  Thanks again....and I'll keep lurking this thread, LOL.



Thank you, Bruins4877, but be careful about lurking ME- I'm learning as I go along!  I hope I'm getting this stuff done correctly and safely; that's one reason why I keep coming back here, reporting in and asking additional questions.  I imagine that working with *any* house is challenging in this regard, but it's especially interesting in a 54 year old house.

At least we aren't dealing with the really old type of electrical service wiring...  that would be really sporty!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 7, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Smokey, I may be wrong/incomplete here, but there should be no additional heat in the interior of the fixture while the fixture is OFF, which all of the ceiling fans were this evening while we were working on them.  The wires that service the fan motor and the light kit go through a hole in the middle of the fixture, but after the connections were made between the house supply side and the fixture wires, the splices were capped and they are stowed in the box, above the plain of the ceiling.
> 
> The insulation is the gray cord type insulation that one typically tucks into big gaps, say around thresholds, big gaps around window frames, etc.  In this application, it is in between the surface of the ceiling and the round base of the ceiling fan where it abuts the ceiling.  The screws that connect the fan to the bracing in the ceiling go through this base, and into the bracing.  The bracing is attached to joists in the ceiling.  BUT- the take home message is that the gray cord insulation is in the conditioned space of the house, on the "living space side" of the ceiling fan, in between the surface of the ceiling and that round base.   And then the beauty rim snaps over that base to hide the screws.
> 
> ...



Poor connections inside that box can cause resistance heating to take place.  If the joints are properly done then the insulation is very likely blocking some of the heat loss that was there if there is a bit of a temperature rise.  Again it is a matter of the exact temperatures over time and the materials involved at that location.

90 isn't a problem.

If you are worried about the insulation you are using I'd get some Roxul at a big box it is fireproof.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 7, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Thank you, Bruins4877, but be careful about lurking ME- I'm learning as I go along!  I hope I'm getting this stuff done correctly and safely; that's one reason why I keep coming back here, reporting in and asking additional questions.  I imagine that working with *any* house is challenging in this regard, but it's especially interesting in a 54 year old house.
> 
> At least we aren't dealing with the really old type of electrical service wiring...  that would be really sporty!




If I were to see knob and tube, out it would come then and there, been there done that to a big two family.  The place was stripped of all wiring within two days of getting the keys.  Bad stuff no want to see, likewise mixed aluminum and copper.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 7, 2013)

I've got to bow out, Time Warner seems to be playing games with its system this evening for some reason.  Both my eMTA and Cable Modem have been reprogrammed several times and it is frustrating trying to surf.


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 7, 2013)

Nothing should be introduced into the volume of the electrical box that can support combustion. That is so that, if a connection in the box were to overheat, it cannot ignite any combustible materials. 
Where you are placing the gasket, if I understand, is where the fixture trim meets the ceiling surface. That is outside of the electrical box and below it. It does not in my opinion, therefore, pose a risk.


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Poor connections inside that box can cause resistance heating to take place.  If the joints are properly done then the insulation is very likely blocking some of the heat loss that was there if there is a bit of a temperature rise.  Again it is a matter of the exact temperatures over time and the materials involved at that location.
> 
> 90 isn't a problem.
> 
> If you are worried about the insulation you are using I'd get some Roxul at a big box it is fireproof.



The splicing connections were done properly on all of the ceiling fans.  I am quite confident about that because The Hubs installed every one of these fans, and he's been installing ceiling fans for over 30 years now.  We were Early Adopters when residential ceiling fans became popular.  

I'm not particularly worried about the insulation cording catching fire, per se- the actual cord of insulation is a few inches away from the electrical wires going through the center of the fan fixture to the motor and the light below.  I would say that I'm using an abundance of caution, referring back to cautions about insulating inset lights- although nothing about these fixtures is "inset light" like.  I'm referring back to cautions about trapping heat in fixtures- but I can't see how there would be any heat generated in the interior of that base to get trapped.  All of the things that are generating heat in the process of operating are hanging down below, into the room.  

Or- should we think of it like insulating the electrical outlets and switches?  Those inserts are UL approved, fireproof- but why, exactly?  I'm not being snarky.  I'm trying to understand "why" so I can understand "how" in terms of insulating these ceiling fans safely.

I remember about 25 or so years ago, when people started insulating their outlets with left over styrofoam meat trays... and there were house fires.  

So I'm wondering if we have inadvertently wandered into that territory with putting the foam insulation cording around the perimeter of the base, in between the base and the ceiling...


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Nothing should be introduced into the volume of the electrical box that can support combustion. That is so that, if a connection in the box were to overheat, it cannot ignite any combustible materials.
> Where you are placing the gasket, if I understand, is where the fixture trim meets the ceiling surface. That is outside of the electrical box and below it. It does not in my opinion, therefore, pose a risk.



Harvey Schneider, what you describe is exactly what Hubs did:  the electrical box itself is above the plane (plain? plane) of the ceiling, in the unconditioned attic space.  On three of these ceiling fans and four of the closet light fixtures, those boxes are under 54 year old wood plank floors that are nailed to joists.  We cannot reach them from above, in the attic, to caulk/spray foam around them.

What you describe in terms of the relationship between the ceiling fan base, the ceiling surface and the foam cord ("pool noodle-like") insulation is exactly right.  The electrical box, containing the spliced wires with their caps, is in the attic above the plane of the ceiling.  Then comes the bracket to which the base will be attached with screws.  The bracket is also above the plane of the ceiling; it is attached to joists.  The base of the ceiling fan has holes through it which correspond to holes in this bracket;  screws go through the holes in the base and into the holes in the bracket and this is how the ceiling fan is suspended and held aloft.  The perimeter of this base has a wider diameter than the position of these screws.  The perimeter of the base abuts the living space surface of the ceiling.  Hubs installed the foam cord insulation in between the perimeter of the base and the surface of the ceiling.  The foam resides below the electrical box, some inches horizontal distance from the electrical box, and separated from the electrical box by the bracket and the actual ceiling.


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## becasunshine (Dec 7, 2013)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> If I were to see knob and tube, out it would come then and there, been there done that to a big two family.  The place was stripped of all wiring within two days of getting the keys.  Bad stuff no want to see, likewise mixed aluminum and copper.



We were sitting here trying ot remember that term, Smokey- knob and tube!

Nope, no knob and tube, and no aluminum wire.  We are really, really lucky in that regard.  We have a favorite Big Box Home Improvement Store nearby because that location hires some super knowledgeable staff.   Many are retired skilled craftsmen/women- electricians, plumbers, contractors, etc. who no longer needed/wanted to run their own business but still wanted to keep their hands in the trade.  Some are young people who are graduates of local trade schools, or working part time in addition to their regular jobs in the trades, in order to earn extra money.  They know their stuff!  Some of the staff are renovating older homes with knob and tube wiring, and like you- out it came!


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 7, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> Some of the staff are renovating older homes with knob and tube wiring, and like you- out it came!


I was considering buying an antique house that had knob and tube. Opened a wall cabinet and saw the bare wires, knife switches and cartridge fuses. I turned around and headed for the nearest door.


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## Madcodger (Dec 7, 2013)

Becca, we can't say for certain without seeing it, but I'm not immediately seeing a problem with what you're doing if it's not in the box.  And when in doubt, there's always a local electrician for a professional opinion.


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## Jeff Lawson (Dec 8, 2013)

The pool-noodle stuff is called backer rod.  It's used mainly for taking up space when caulking big joints in concrete, with say Sika products.

If you are simply stuffing it around the electrical box to compensate for an imperfect cut in the drywall or plaster, there shouldn't be any problem there.  In a perfect world the cut would be perfect and there wouldn't be any gap.  It's not like you are closing a vent that was intended to be there.

I would think you would even be able to stuff a little piece of that backer rod slightly into the box knock-out that has the wiring going into the box, just to seal it.  But like was said previously, you wouldn't want to fill the whole box with a bunch of cellulose or something combustible.

Those boxes don't have a need to be vented...there is nothing about them that is meant to do that.  They are simply there to protect the wiring and provide and attachment for something else.  I think generally, if an appliance was meant to be vented, there would be a vent.  If there were a relay or something else that would make heat, it would likely require a different housing.

Not a pro...so take it for what it's worth.    Thanks for the TP advice, that was very handy in understanding our home's convection currents.


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## becasunshine (Dec 8, 2013)

Madcodger said:


> Becca, we can't say for certain without seeing it, but I'm not immediately seeing a problem with what you're doing if it's not in the box.  And when in doubt, there's always a local electrician for a professional opinion.



Joe, thank you.  No, no where near the box.  Technically, the "pool noodle" is in a completely different room than the box.  The box is in the attic.  The "pool noodle" is on the other side of the ceiling, in the conditioned living space. 

Good point on the local electrician.  We have a good relationship with the electricians who helped us when we tore out (as in, TORE OUT) and renovated the laundry room and kitchen.  I can call them and ask about local code to make sure.


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## Madcodger (Dec 8, 2013)

Also, for those wondering what to use to seal areas such as the top plate in the attic, acoustic sealant works well because it does not harden and stays flexible (so it will still be useful the following season, after the wood has expanded and contracted.  Much better than caulk but not for areas that will be seen as it's not a finish product (aesthetically).  Big box stores won't have it but a well-stocked contractor's warehouse will.


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## becasunshine (Dec 8, 2013)

Jeff Lawson said:


> The pool-noodle stuff is called backer rod.  It's used mainly for taking up space when caulking big joints in concrete, with say Sika products.
> 
> If you are simply stuffing it around the electrical box to compensate for an imperfect cut in the drywall or plaster, there shouldn't be any problem there.  In a perfect world the cut would be perfect and there wouldn't be any gap.  It's not like you are closing a vent that was intended to be there.
> 
> ...



All over the northern hemisphere tonight, people are hanging toilet paper from doorways with little swatches of tape, to watch the convection currents from their wood burning appliances move through the house, so that they may understand how to most effectively use their fans to heat their houses during this Arctic Train Event.     Kinda warms your heart to think about, doesn't it?  Little strips of toilet paper, wafting in the convection currents, all over the world...     while people figure out how best to use renewable resources...  OK SHOW OF HANDS HERE- HOW MANY PEOPLE RECYCLED THOSE TOILET PAPER STRIPS BACK INTO THE BATHROOM FOR FURTHER USE?

No wait, TMI- we don't want to know!  

Jeff, thank you- so THAT'S what the Pool Noodle Insulation is really called!   "Backer rod."  You know, I think The Hubs knows the proper terminology, because I think I've heard him use that term before- "backer rod."  He had to use it when he was replacing the old thresholds in this house.  There were gaps.  I wasn't hands on involved in that project, so I don't know where those gaps were, but The Hubs was pretty pleased with the outcome, and I remember he said that the backer rod worked out really well for him in that application.  I just never put two and two together about Backer Rod re: Pool Noodle Insulation.  

(I am over-tired and getting silly- sorry!)

Jeff, per above, we aren't even putting the backer rod around the box.  We put it in between the base of the ceiling fan, that part that snugs up against the living space side of the ceiling, and the ceiling itself.  Two screws go through this base and into the bracket that is attached above, spanning two ceiling joists.   These two screws go through the base into the bracket to hold the ceiling fan aloft.  The screws are located well inside the perimeter of this base, and they go through the hole cut into the ceiling through which one threads the electrical service wires from the fan up into the box, which is located above the brace, in the attic.  This hole is larger than is necessary for the wires to transect the ceiling, because one must also work through this hole, to access the box in the attic, to splice the wires, cap them and stow them in the box, to hang the brace in between two joists, and then finally to attach the base to the brace with two screws.  The brace is on the attic side of the ceiling; the base is on the living area side of the ceiling.  The box is above the brace.  Per above, the perimeter of this base is wider than the hole that is cut through the ceiling; it has to be wider, because it abuts the ceiling and gives the fan some lateral stability.

The Hubs put the backer rod in between the perimeter of this base and the surface of the ceiling that faces downward in the living area of the house- so it's a good distance away from the electrical box in the attic, and separated from it by the ceiling.

About the venting- Yeah, that was our thinking too- if the box for a ceiling fan contained something that would produce heat, then it would come with precautions similar to those for recessed lights.


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## becasunshine (Dec 8, 2013)

Interesting update:

While Hubs was working in the attic, putting spray foam insulation and/or caulk around the outside of the boxes that he could access, I was working downstairs in anticipation of the coming Arctic blast and ice event.  When we opened up the shades this morning there was excess condensation on the windows.  Whoops- too much humidity in the house. 

It was rather temperate here this afternoon, highs in the upper 40's.  Since Hubs was in and out of the attic anyway, and we needed to blow some moisture out of the house, and I wanted to vacuum the house thoroughly in case we lose power later today, I figured it was as good a time as any to air out the house, to do a complete air exchange.  We shut down the stove, made sure that the furnace was off, opened all of the windows in the house, ALL OF THEM, and turned on both the whole house fan in the laundry room window, set to exhaust, and the exhaust fan in the bathroom.

When we shut the stove down and opened up the house, the HVAC thermostat showed 70'F.  

In addition to actively exhausting the house, we had a pretty stiff breeze going on here ahead of the cold front.  I could feel the wind blowing through the house as I vacuumed.  The house dropped into the upper 50's in about an hour, maybe an hour and a half.

After the attic work was done, and the vacuuming was done, we closed up the house, fired up the pellet stove, got the pellet stove set on cruise, and went out to grab some dinner and run some errands.  We were gone for a couple of hours.

When we got back home (REPLETE WITH POOL NOODLE INSULATION AND FURNACE CEMENT) the HVAC thermostat reported the temp in the middle of the house at 66'F.  The pellet stove had gained at least 8' on its own- no help from the gas furnace- in a couple of hours.  This as the outside temperature was dropping significantly.

Hubs set to work, caulking around the perimeter of the light fixtures in four closets, caulking up a few more random places that we'd noticed, and stuffing backer rod around the perimeter of the bases on the ceiling fans and a pendant light fixture (again, lights hanging far below the base, into the conditioned living space.) 

The house temp immediately went from 66'F to 67'F. 

Since completing the last phase of this project, insulating the ceiling fans and closet light fixtures that we couldn't access in the attic, from the conditioned side of the ceiling, the outside temperatures continue to fall, and the temperature in the house has risen yet another degree to 68'F. 

I thought that paying attention to these details would have at least an incremental impact, probably a cumulative impact, but I didn't expect it to have an immediate and measurable impact.


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## Jeff Lawson (Dec 8, 2013)

becasunshine said:


> All over the northern hemisphere tonight, people are hanging toilet paper from doorways with little swatches of tape, to watch the convection currents from their wood burning appliances move through the house, so that they may understand how to most effectively use their fans to heat their houses during this Arctic Train Event.     Kinda warms your heart to think about, doesn't it?  Little strips of toilet paper, wafting in the convection currents, all over the world...     while people figure out how best to use renewable resources...  OK SHOW OF HANDS HERE- HOW MANY PEOPLE RECYCLED THOSE TOILET PAPER STRIPS BACK INTO THE BATHROOM FOR FURTHER USE?
> 
> No wait, TMI- we don't want to know!
> 
> ...


Okay...I get what you are doing.  You are way okay.  Except for I should now do the same with my ceiling fans!

Such a great thread.

This cold front got here in Colorado on Wednesday and boy, it has been cold.  I had trouble with my "new" pellet stove for the first 36 hours or so.  But it is now doing a pretty good job keeping up as our only heat source for 2200 sf tri-level home.

Pellet heat along with conservation tips like in this thread is really good stuff!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 8, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I was considering buying an antique house that had knob and tube. Opened a wall cabinet and saw the bare wires, knife switches and cartridge fuses. I turned around and headed for the nearest door.



Gee, you mean you didn't just buy the place and rewire.  Damn no sense of adventure.  We had a pile of old gas light lines in that house as well along with a copper hot water tank that used to be heated by a coil in a cook stove, the stove was gone and the tank was walled around instead of being removed.  Oh well, one can learn a lot from an old house.


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## Lake Girl (Dec 8, 2013)

Bruins4877 said:


> Since buying the house 4 years ago I have been tearing down walls to replace insulation (R-7 insulation in the walls...DOH) and windows.  I have used R-13 in the walls, then putting rigid foam up before sheet rocking.


 
I hope when you are installing vapour barrier you put a section around the electrical boxes to be pulled through the full vapour barrier sheet that covers the wall floor to ceiling.  Tuck tape to full wall vapour barrier or rigid foam.  This avoids air infiltration through the electrical box.

When replacing windows, seal with waterproofing tape similar to this if at all possible http://www.mfmbp.com/doc/WindowWrap Brochure 10-12.pdf
Purchased a different brand from menard's but the brand name is only on the exterior wrapping of the roll...  Stops air and water infiltration around windows and doors.


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## becasunshine (Dec 8, 2013)

God bless my husband, who HATES to caulk with a white hot passion (because he tends to be a perfectionist about it, and CAULK SIMPLY WILL NOT DO WHAT HE TELLS IT TO DO!  NO! BAD CAULK! BAD!)  My husband has spent three weekends straight with a caulk gun in his hand.  The house is noticeably less drafty, more comfortable.  

Right now I have all of windows completely unswaddled, cell shades up, Butt Ugly Thermal Curtain Panels pulled back, trying to dry out some condensation on the inside surface of the windows before it's time to swaddle the windows again for the night.  It's gray outside with intervals of freezing rain and sleet, temps are hovering at freezing.  The gas furnace is off and has not been on for days, since it was on briefly (very briefly) when the HVAC tech was here testing the gas water heater vent for back draft (no back draft, so that's good.)  

The pellet stove is finally, comfortably, truly carrying this house on a cold, gray day with no thermal gain.

Hubs is behind the furnace right now, with furnace cement, resealing that furnace vent where it goes into the wall.  It's a bigger job than it first appeared.  The old sealant was shot.  He pulled most of it out and he's re-sealing the whole thing.

God bless that man- he's had the patience of Job for the past three weekends.  

Before we started this particular phase of Adventures With Old Houses, I would not have imagined that caulk and similar incremental steps would have such an immediate, noticeable return.  I'm a believer.  Even my husband, who hates caulk, is a believer.  

Take home message:  if you think you *might* need to caulk, you probably do.  =/


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## Madcodger (Dec 8, 2013)

Thanks for sharing effects of your efforts, Beca.  Great work!

I am slightly (and only slightly) concerned about the moisture buildup.  If you can purchase an inexpensive hygrometer (humidity meter) or two and place in a couple of rooms (perhaps one on each floor) it would be good to monitor that.  Now, don't be too concerned as it may simply be normal humidity levels, a rapid drop in temps outside with the approaching storm, and windows with somewhat lower R-value (not much to worry about in that case as long as it doesn't occur often enough to harm the window area with moisture).  And it's rare to "overseal" an older home - almost impossible in most cases without some heavy duty sealing efforts.  But it's not expensive to monitor humidity, and it's better for your health to keep it at 40 - 60% anyway, so not a bad thing to monitor with inexpensive devices.

And I still advocate that blower door test by a certified auditor, but enough preaching...

Joe


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## becasunshine (Dec 8, 2013)

Joe, I do understand your concern about humidity.  I remember that, as a child, it was considered OK for condensation to be on the storm windows, but not on the inside surface of the interior windows.  Houses were much more drafty and the heating plant was typically a big honkin' oil burner or boiler.   We blasted cold out of the house!  I remember that while oil furnaces could last forever, they were sort of like the old work horse Mercedes- they needed their pampering at least once a season.  When the oil furnace was down for a repair or for service, my parents would turn on the electric oven and leave the door opened.  The things we remember!

Anyway, we have cell shades on all of the windows except over the kitchen sink and in the laundry room.  Our cells aren't on tracks but we have the Butt Ugly Thermal Panels over some of them- and those are consistently the windows that collect condensation on the inside.  The other windows in the house that don't have the thermal curtains over the cell shades don't accumulate the condensation, so I think it's a matter of trapping moisture behind those curtain panels.  

When the a/c is typically on in the summer, of course we don't have this problem.

I do not object to a blower door test- but I was afraid to have it done before now.   

We have owned two pop up campers and we have a small travel trailer now.  Especially with the pop ups, we had to find that sweet spot between holding in heat and allowing the tenting to breathe, so that we didn't accumulate mold and mildew.  It was especially essential for that tenting to be dry, dry, dry before the pop ups were put away.  

We made window panels out of Reflectix and aluminum tape that we stored under the matresses when not in use.  At either temperature extreme we'd pop them in the windows and zip the window flaps up around them.  This essentially made somewhat of a "hard sided" camper out of a pop up.  

We have camped in a pop up at the northern most tip of the Chesapeake Bay with friends in the middle of winter in sub-freezing weather.  That pop up didn't even have a furnace- we were using an electric space heater, the Reflectix panels and a heated mattress pad at night.  (Yes, nuts.  We were all nuts- but we had a good time!)  

I've stood in our second pop up at high noon in Charleston, South Carolina in August and registered a temp of 70'F with the a/c running and the Reflectix panels in place- so it does work.  In that case, the condensation happened on the OUTSIDE and got the outside of the tenting wet.

That's what finally drove us out of pop ups- the various and myriad ways in which we had to make sure that the tenting was dry before we left the pop up folded up at home.  We didn't have an optimum situation for leaving a pop up opened at home to dry out- so we just went to a small travel trailer.

Even in the travel trailer we often keep a window cracked to avoid moisture build up, or "inside rain" during cold weather.  

So yeah, I do know what you are saying about humidity- but also, like you said, it would be difficult to seal this house up to air tight without some professional intervention, and even then I'm not sure it's possible.  

I think it's the rapid temperature decline and OK but not triple pane replacement windows coupled with Butt Ugly Thermal Panels.

I'll bet you that if I fired up the gas furnace right now, with its big blower, fired up that big old combustion in the laundry room and sucked air in through every remaining crack in this house,  that the condensation would dry up in a heart beat.  

BTW, we just got a good roll of thunder through here- gonna be an interesting weather day!


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