# Running pellet stove off a generator



## john193 (Jan 11, 2013)

I'm trying to put together a backup system to run my mt Vernon ae incase of a power outage. I have a generac 3.5kW generator which is pretty basic, essentially a dumb generator. I know plugging in the stove directly is asking for trouble, so my thought was to bridge the gap by using a ups backup with some ability to "clean" the power coming to the stove. Has anyone gone this route? Any ups in particular i should consider? Or have alternate solutions? Ideally I would have bought a better generator but power outages are rare here, though Sandy was the exception. Thanks.


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## kinsmanstoves (Jan 11, 2013)

The Mt Vernon AE is a AC/DC stove.  use the DC plug.  Some generators will not run pellet stoves.

Eric


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## MikeNH (Jan 11, 2013)

I've been looking into this myself.  I have a Generac XP8000E which is pretty good with power (<5% THD) and I feel comfortable enough running the TV, laptops, etc.  Which model Generac do you have?  Some put out cleaner power than others.  I wish I bought a Honda myself but it wasn't in my budget at the time so I did what I could do.

That being said, I've been looking at APC ups...just something basic which would run the stove by itself for the 15 min or so that it would take me to start and warm up the generator.  It would also run a couple of lights, the internet router (if the internet is still up), etc during the times the generator is not running.  I'm thinking (I need to verify this) that it would also take care of the instantaneous voltage drop that happens when my well pump kicks on while on generator power.  Someone with more experience may be able to chime in.


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## Harvey Schneider (Jan 11, 2013)

kinsmanstoves said:


> The Mt Vernon AE is a AC/DC stove. use the DC plug. Some generators will not run pellet stoves.


The DC plug is an option that you can get from your dealer. The stove will run directly from a 12 V battery, but it runs in a manual ignition mode and with blowers set to quiet mode.
After hurricane Sandy, I got three days of run (actual run time about 45 hours) from a 100Ah marine battery. Power came back so It went automatically back to AC operation, but the battery was still good for more. YMMV


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## WoodPorn (Jan 11, 2013)

Check the specs on any UPS you look into, filtered power is an option not a standard


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## john193 (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> The DC plug is an option that you can get from your dealer. The stove will run directly from a 12 V battery, but it runs in a manual ignition mode and with blowers set to quiet mode.
> After hurricane Sandy, I got three days of run (actual run time about 45 hours) from a 100Ah marine battery. Power came back so It went automatically back to AC operation, but the battery was still good for more. YMMV



Thanks for the run numbers, that's better than I thought. I could go this route. I'd need to invest in a battery charger. Do you have a second battery as backup for quick swap? Having a second battery would allow me to keep things going and charge the first one off the generator, I assume.  

I don't know the model off the top of my head and have never plugged the stove in directly. It should theoretically work but haven't tried. 

Ps paying $60 for that cable is highway robbery, it's easy to just make one.


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## WoodPorn (Jan 11, 2013)

john193 said:


> Thanks for the run numbers, that's better than I thought. I could go this route. I'd need to invest in a battery charger. Do you have a second battery as backup for quick swap? Having a second battery would allow me to keep things going and charge the first one off the generator, I assume.
> 
> I don't know the model off the top of my head and have never plugged the stove in directly. It should theoretically work but haven't tried.
> 
> Ps paying $60 for that cable is highway robbery, it's easy to just make one.


Parallel two batteries and increase your runtime. Just be sure to charge them separately.


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## Harvey Schneider (Jan 11, 2013)

john193 said:


> Thanks for the run numbers, that's better than I thought. I could go this route. I'd need to invest in a battery charger. Do you have a second battery as backup for quick swap? Having a second battery would allow me to keep things going and charge the first one off the generator, I assume.


Seventy pound batteries are too heavy for me to carry around so I have since created a battery bank that also runs a large inverter to power my deep well pump. The stove steals power from the battery bank. I have a little (800W) generator and a charge controller that I can use to restore the battery bank if the outage lasts too long for its capacity. The battery bank is normally maintained by a small solar panel and charge controller.
Yes, $60 is an outrageous amount to pay for what is about $10 in parts (of course you have to consider the cost of labor and retail markup), but the consequence of getting the wiring wrong are unacceptable (I am told that there is no reverse polarity protection) and at the time I had no information about how the cable is wired.


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## Harvey Schneider (Jan 11, 2013)

WoodPorn said:


> Parallel two batteries and increase your runtime. Just be sure to charge them separately.


Why is it necessary to charge them separately?


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## Shaw520 (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Why is it necessary to charge them separately?


good question,... I run off two marine batteries inverted to ac,.... when they need charging I simple pull the Chevy K2500 up to the door with jumper cables to restore the bank.  charge them the same way as a dual battery set up in a truck


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## john193 (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Seventy pound batteries are too heavy for me to carry around so I have since created a battery bank that also runs a large inverter to power my deep well pump. The stove steals power from the battery bank. I have a little (800W) generator and a charge controller that I can use to restore the battery bank if the outage lasts too long for its capacity. The battery bank is normally maintained by a small solar panel and charge controller.
> Yes, $60 is an outrageous amount to pay for what is about $10 in parts (of course you have to consider the cost of labor and retail markup), but the consequence of getting the wiring wrong are unacceptable (I am told that there is no reverse polarity protection) and at the time I had no information about how the cable is wired.


Is there a schematic of the wiring available here?  Not having much look with google.


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## Mr. Spock (Jan 11, 2013)

A lot of good info already posted. So I will just pass along some additional notes.

Most UPS's wont condition power in terms of fixing THD on the line. They are intended to cover brown out (low votage) or filter spikes (surge suppression). Power conditioners that fix THD are generally very expensive. If you are just looking to keep the stove going until the generator is kicked in, size a ups appropriately to your stoves power consumption and the amount of time you need to get the gen up. Figures in some head room (extra run time). Fully discharging a UPS will shorten it's battery life considerably. In a addition beware of units that output a steped sine or modified sine. These inverter types will raise hell with motors and can damage or shorten the life of electronic devices.

I have never had issues running appliances or sensitive devices like computers off my Generac. If your Generac is capable of supplying power with harmonic distortion around 5% or less under load, I wouldn't worry about it.

If your looking for an alternative, the solar route has been mentioned. Since your stove has a DC option you can skip the cost of DC/AC inverter and connect a battery directly. In terms of clean power, it doesn't get any cleaner than DC right from a battery. As mentioned by previous members, there are many options to keep a battery charged. Just keep in mind most batteries that have a high Amp/Hour rating require maintenance. Cleaning and topping off water levels come to mind right away with the lead acid variety. Additionally lead acid batteries release gas when charged so they must be kept in a well ventilated area. Never charge a lead acid battery inside the living space of your home. However there are alternatives like AGM but at higher cost per Amp/Hr.


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## Mr. Spock (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Why is it necessary to charge them separately?
> 
> 
> Shaw520 said:
> ...


 
You don't. You size your charger according to the Amp/Hr rating of the battery(s). In the case of the dual bat truck setup the alt is bigger. If the charger is undersized it will just take longer to fill the bank.


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## bonesy (Jan 11, 2013)

Here is some summarized info I got directly from APC. If you are using an APC BackUPS system, it will run on a generator as long as the generator is big enough to handle the load being put on it. This specific UPS will provide clean, pure sine power to the end device while on line. Of course they will tell you their systems are designed for computer type devices, but a stove will run fine on one if you spec the APC UPS properly as well as the generator.

So basically, as long as the generator is big enough and doesn't bog down on other stuff starting, which would cause the UPS to try to maintain power, you are good. If the UPS actually kicks on and provides backup, that is NOT pure sine unless you purchased one of the APC models that does provide pure sine even while on battery backup.


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## john193 (Jan 11, 2013)

jmbones said:


> Here is some summarized info I got directly from APC. If you are using an APC BackUPS system, it will run on a generator as long as the generator is big enough to handle the load being put on it. This specific UPS will provide clean, pure sine power to the end device while on line. Of course they will tell you their systems are designed for computer type devices, but a stove will run fine on one if you spec the APC UPS properly as well as the generator.
> 
> So basically, as long as the generator is big enough and doesn't bog down on other stuff starting, which would cause the UPS to try to maintain power, you are good. If the UPS actually kicks on and provides backup, that is NOT pure sine unless you purchased one of the APC models that does provide pure sine even while on battery backup.


Can you comment on the model no of the unit in question? This setup would be much cleaner and more ideal for me as opposed to the battery backup.


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## WoodPorn (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Why is it necessary to charge them separately?


 Sorry I should have specified....The likelyhood of the batteries being the same (unless bought new) is slim, The two batteries need to be fully charged before paralleling....see post 22 here:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/battery-backup-dummy.93773/  Ah capacity for the 2 batts sould be similar if not the same if you're going to do this.



jmbones said:


> Here is some summarized info I got directly from APC. If you are using an APC BackUPS system, it will run on a generator as long as the generator is big enough to handle the load being put on it. This specific UPS will provide clean, pure sine power to the end device while on line. Of course they will tell you their systems are designed for computer type devices, but a stove will run fine on one if you spec the APC UPS properly as well as the generator.
> 
> *So basically, as long as the generator is big enough and doesn't bog down on other stuff starting, which would cause the UPS to try to maintain power, you are good*. If the UPS actually kicks on and provides backup, that is NOT pure sine unless you purchased one of the APC models that does provide pure sine even while on battery backup.


 
Again, not all UPS' clean the power up unless purchased to do so. Dirty power in = dirty power out on the smaller UPS'
I believe APC Back UPS does not filter, however Back UPS pro does.


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## bonesy (Jan 11, 2013)

john193 said:


> Can you comment on the model no of the unit in question? This setup would be much cleaner and more ideal for me as opposed to the battery backup.


 No specific model other then the APC "BackUPS" line of UPS's.


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## bonesy (Jan 11, 2013)

WoodPorn said:


> Again, not all UPS' clean the power up unless purchased to do so. Dirty power in = dirty power out on the smaller UPS'
> I believe APC Back UPS does not filter, however Back UPS pro does.


 
I am specifically referring to APC's "BackUPS" models. They provide pure sine wave power to the device connected as long as they are online. "Online" meaning there is some type of power going into the UPS. It doesn't matter whether they are on a generator, main power, two squirrells spinning a wheel. As long as they are online, they are providing pure sine. What I summarized came directly from APC, so this is according to them, not my opinion.

They do make another model (SmartUPS I believe) that will also provide pure sine when running on the battery backup as well.


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## Harvey Schneider (Jan 11, 2013)

john193 said:


> Is there a schematic of the wiring available here? Not having much look with google.


 
I have attached two views of the business end of the cable. Facing the connector as in the photo, Red (pos) goes to the upper right pin and Black (neg) goes to the upper left pin. The bottom pin is unused.
The workmanship is nice on the supplied cable but the battery clips are cheap but adequate.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I have since created a battery bank that also runs a large inverter to power my deep well pump.



I have to say that I'm very impressed.  I had to upsize from a 5kw generator to a 7.5/13.5(surge) kw generator because the 5kw unit choked on the well startup current.  Now, my well is 450' deep and the pump isn't a fancy soft start or anything.


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## john193 (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I have attached two views of the business end of the cable. Facing the connector as in the photo, Red (pos) goes to the upper right pin and Black (neg) goes to the upper left pin. The bottom pin is unused.
> The workmanship is nice on the supplied cable but the battery clips are cheap but adequate.
> 
> 
> ...


Many thanks. And I owe you a beer for not frying my stove.


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## Harvey Schneider (Jan 11, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I have to say that I'm very impressed. I had to upsize from a 5kw generator to a 7.5/13.5(surge) kw generator because the 5kw unit choked on the well startup current. Now, my well is 450' deep and the pump isn't a fancy soft start or anything.


I went through three inverters (progressively larger) until I got an Aims 5kW continuous, 10kW peak inverter. Even then it takes at least two batteries in parallel to handle the startup of the well pump. With one battery the inverter input dropped to the inverter under-Voltage lockout during startup. The pump is 3/4 hp and the well is 425 ft deep.


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## Mr. Spock (Jan 11, 2013)

The Smart-UPS line does have pure sine models. I don't know the wattage rating of your stove but I will assume 175 watt average draw. Throw in an additional 20 watts for the internal function of the unit ( inverter efficiency nor the batt amp/hr rating is stated in the specs so 20 watt loss is being chosen from experaince). A 600 watt model like the one below would provide approximately 30-40 minutes of run time at a 175 watt draw.  To increase the life span of the battery however you do not want to discharge a lead acid battery more than 50%. So with the 600 watt model you would have about 15-20 minutes without severely discharging the battery. So that should give you enough time to get the gen up if it's being cranky for some reason or in worst case get the stove shutdown. Running just the fans you ( no auger) will reduce the watt draw somewhat so you may be able to squeak out 30 minutes on a 600 watt device.

My observation based on the information that is provided in the specs. I can not guarantee it's accuracy or the quality of the unit. DYODD!

Others may have some experaince with the unit.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=887745&is=REG&Q=&A=details


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## Mr. Spock (Jan 11, 2013)

Harvey Schneider said:


> I went through three inverters (progressively larger) until I got an Aims 5kW continuous, 10kW peak inverter. Even then it takes at least two batteries in parallel to handle the startup of the well pump. With one battery the inverter input dropped to the inverter under-Voltage lockout during startup. The pump is 3/4 hp and the well is 425 ft deep.


 
If you have not already, consider a soft start pump (variable speed) if replacement ever becomes an option. Much easier on the power system and smooth water pressure too. Still need those amp/hrs to keep it going though.


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## bill3rail (Jan 11, 2013)

I ran my Englander through Hurricane Sandy on a genny with not problems at all.  
I do like the idea of a UPS so I can shut down the stove to get the genny running, and will look into it.

Bill


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## moey (Jan 11, 2013)

Personally I would look at one of the inverter generators if I was going to run mine. Theres lots of other solutions as people mentioned though. If I lose power Ill suck it up and just run my boiler. It has almost no electronics on it although it does have a motor obviously.


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## Harvey Schneider (Jan 11, 2013)

moey said:


> Personally I would look at one of the inverter generators if I was going to run mine.


That's what I was going to do, but my wife freaked out over the thought of another generator droning on through the night. We live in a valley and the noise reverberates so that we get it from both sides. With the setup I have the generator should only be needed to top up the batteries if the outage is more than about four days and it can be run in the daytime and silent at night.​


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## Smitty090 (Jan 11, 2013)

I have my 6600W gen fed into my garage which back feeds into the house when I turn off the main switch from the pole.  I ran most things in my house including the pellet stove for 3 days straight.  Only thing I had to do was shut everything down when the hot water tank kicked in on day 3 but I should have unplugged that.
Clean power is important for computers and sensitive electronics like TVs and stuff but the pellet stove is mainly mechanical where minute fluctuations won't hurt it.  I purchased my generator specifically for this type of thing since I replaced my wood stove with pellet.  Tough to heat with 3 days of no power!
Note however, if the money doesn't bother you, a ups or monster clean power bar is never a bad idea.


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## glenc0322 (Jan 11, 2013)

i have a champion generator that puts out a true sine wave and also have a APC ups back up that cleans the sine wave incase of any spikes in the voltage and can run on the ups for 20 minutes at full draw of my stove.  During a power outage i used the ups to shut off my stove and then started the generator and ran the stove for 2 days with no problems. the only annoying part is the ups beeps when there is a power loss so for the 20 minutes it was turning off i heard a beep every 5 seconds but other then that worked great.  just make sure the sine wave is true coming off your generator and can handle the load you want to put on it.  good luck there are dozens of options out there just need to find the one in your price range and that works for you


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## BigJohnfromCT (Jan 11, 2013)

john193 said:


> I'm trying to put together a backup system to run my mt Vernon ae incase of a power outage. I have a generac 3.5kW generator which is pretty basic, essentially a dumb generator. I know plugging in the stove directly is asking for trouble, so my thought was to bridge the gap by using a ups backup with some ability to "clean" the power coming to the stove. Has anyone gone this route? Any ups in particular i should consider? Or have alternate solutions? Ideally I would have bought a better generator but power outages are rare here, though Sandy was the exception. Thanks.


 
I know a lot of you have posted responses but I thought I share my experience.  I've got a Quadra-Fire AE.  In 2011 I lost power for 2 days after a freak October snow storm.  Lost power again for 2 days after hurricane Sandy in 2012.  In both instances I ran my stove off my Generac XG10000 (10KW). Had to use an extension cord as the place where I installed my stove is not yet wired on the transfer switch.  The only thing I did was use an surge protector which I always use even on commercial power.  It ran great.


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## glenc0322 (Jan 11, 2013)

if you are going to hook your generator to your panel you should not use a transfer switch you should use a breaker interlock so you can use any breaker in your pane not just the 6 or 8 that you would have to use with a transfer switch.  say you lose power in the summer and you might not need your stove you could use a breaker for an air conditioner instead http://www.interlockkit.com/?gclid=CJPOhOL14bQCFUid4AodCVsARAyou need to get the right interlock for your panel


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## moey (Jan 11, 2013)

glenc0322 said:


> if you are going to hook your generator to your panel you should not use a transfer switch you should use a breaker interlock so you can use any breaker in your pane not just the 6 or 8 that you would have to use with a transfer switch. say you lose power in the summer and you might not need your stove you could use a breaker for an air conditioner instead http://www.interlockkit.com/?gclid=CJPOhOL14bQCFUid4AodCVsARAyou need to get the right interlock for your panel


 
The add ons are not UL listed only tested most local inspectors will not approve them. That being said I wish I had put one of these up rather then my transfer switch which I dont like.


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## WoodPorn (Jan 12, 2013)

moey said:


> The add ons are not UL listed only tested most local inspectors will not approve them. That being said I wish I had put one of these up rather then my transfer switch which I dont like.


 +1   I can tell you 1st hand that not all inspectors will pass an interlock.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 12, 2013)

I put a SquareD interlock on my SquareD panel. It does seem to be UL listed.  http://www.homedepot.com/p/t/203030...ductId=203030954&storeId=10051#specifications


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## Centurion (Jan 12, 2013)

I also have a very simple generator but wanted to be able to use it safetly for my pellet stoves.  Anything pure sine wave is expensive but I feel is worth it.  I bought an 12 VDC to 120 VAC1000 watt pure sinewave inverter and a 100 amp-hour capacity, deep cycle battery.  During an outage I could run the stove off this setup alone for up to 8 to 10 hours but I actually keep a 15 amp battery charger floating across the battery and power the charger off the generator.  The charger doesn't care about the quality of the generator power and keeps the stove running just like on commercial power.  I have run it this way for days with no hicups and the house stays toasty and well lit.  I do this manually but there are similar systems (more money) that will come on automatically just like a UPS.


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## BigJohnfromCT (Jan 12, 2013)

glenc0322 said:


> if you are going to hook your generator to your panel you should not use a transfer switch you should use a breaker interlock so you can use any breaker in your pane not just the 6 or 8 that you would have to use with a transfer switch. say you lose power in the summer and you might not need your stove you could use a breaker for an air conditioner instead http://www.interlockkit.com/?gclid=CJPOhOL14bQCFUid4AodCVsARAyou need to get the right interlock for your panel


 
Looked at the interlock kit url.  It looks like a very nice unit.  When I bought this house it came with a generator and already had the transfer switch installed.  I just need to swing the outlet that powers the stove over to the switch.


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Jan 12, 2013)

Had a transformer go this morning on the street which lit up the neighborhood and woke everyone in the vicinity at 4 in the morning. The pellet stove is connected to a APC battery backup which allows for shutdown. I also have an interlock switch which was installed and is very flexible as the previous poster pointed out. You pick whatever circuit you want at any given time. The only thing I felt uncomfortable about was being the only one in the area with the generator going, so I waited and let the UPS power down the stove. We got power back within the hour, which is not always common in CT.


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## Phoenix Hatchling (Jan 12, 2013)

BigJohnfromCT said:


> Looked at the interlock kit url.  It looks like a very nice unit.  When I bought this house it came with a generator and already had the transfer switch installed.  I just need to swing the outlet that powers the stove over to the switch.


You get you stove from Black Swan or Trading Post?


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## john193 (Jan 12, 2013)

Centurion said:


> I also have a very simple generator but wanted to be able to use it safetly for my pellet stoves.  Anything pure sine wave is expensive but I feel is worth it.  I bought an 12 VDC to 120 VAC1000 watt pure sinewave inverter and a 100 amp-hour capacity, deep cycle battery.  During an outage I could run the stove off this setup alone for up to 8 to 10 hours but I actually keep a 15 amp battery charger floating across the battery and power the charger off the generator.  The charger doesn't care about the quality of the generator power and keeps the stove running just like on commercial power.  I have run it this way for days with no hicups and the house stays toasty and well lit.  I do this manually but there are similar systems (more money) that will come on automatically just like a UPS.


So let me see if I'm following you. Generator to battery charger to marine battery to inverter to stove (ac) power. Correct?


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## Centurion (Jan 20, 2013)

john193 said:


> So let me see if I'm following you. Generator to battery charger to marine battery to inverter to stove (ac) power. Correct?


 
Sorry for the delay in getting back to John, I didn't know that you replied to my email untill I discover "ALERTS" in the menu bar.

Yes, you are correct. I set mine up for manually operation but it can operate automatically by detecting loss of power, much like a UPS. Your choice but auto is a bit more expensive for those components.


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