# Texas Power Shortage



## peakbagger (Feb 14, 2021)

The polar vortex is hitting Texas. Much of the power generation and gas distribution was not designed for cold weather. Texas does not have a capacity system in place to pay for capacity in case its needed. This reduces power rates during normal times but a bit of problem during unusual conditions. So here is a snip from the Ercotwebsite today. The forecast demand color is bit hard to see but what it shows is that the grid will run out of power tonight. That usually means brown outs and black outs.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 14, 2021)

And babies in 9 mo!


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 14, 2021)

We've already gotten the generic recording from the power company asking us to cut natural gas and electric usage because of unprecedented demand.  We've been keeping the heat low in the majority of the house (we do have to worry about water piping in external walls, however), and our woodstove has been cranking for days.  I'm so thankful for that stove.

There will be no babies here in nine months.  If we lose power, all four kids will move out of their two bedrooms where the woodstove heat doesn't flow, and we'll be having a family camp out.


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## Dataman (Feb 14, 2021)

We don't have that problem where I live.   3 Hydro Power Dams.  We have power than we can use and Sell right now in Pend Oreille County.   All 9135 Customers that are being serviced.   Boundary Dam (600mw, Shared with Seattle) plus Box Canyon Dam (60mw).    *Albeni Falls Dam (4.6mw)*.   Biggest Customer went out of Business (Newsprint Company).   They bought most of the power so rates going up.   *Shame it can't be sent to Texas*


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## John Galt (Feb 14, 2021)

I've seen this most of my life from growing up in Texas. Electricity is not even close to capacity. Cooling during the summer is thirty times the amount from during the winter, there is never any issue there. Natural gas usage is higher and during the peaks of a cold snap people freak out. There has NEVER been any issue with a shutdown or reduced capacity of any services. Don't believe it.


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## begreen (Feb 14, 2021)

Where's all that Texas wind power when you need it? Ruh roh!









						Frozen wind turbines hamper Texas power output, state's electric grid operator says
					

Texas grid operators urge conservation as frozen wind turbines freeze up electric generation.



					www.statesman.com


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## kennyp2339 (Feb 15, 2021)

This is a great example of why steady generation is needed w/ supplemental renewables. We need to really start investigating and planning for more nuclear generation, take the existing natural gas and turn them into peakers and still keep the door open for expanded renewables. Its the only feasible way at this point to make this all work, especially with our tech.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

Mass is going to be the guinea pig for Clean Peak where no fossil generation (including natural gas peakers) will be used to cover a peak demand condition. They will pay a capacity payment to renewable generators for short term dispatch of renewable power.  Hydroplants in the region are installing battery banks to act as virtual pondage so they can sell more power during high demand times without exceeding their limits of discharge flow. They can charge the batteries up when there is minimal demand for power and then dispatch peak "renewable generation" when its in demand. The economics are lined up that new renewable projects most likely will have a battery integrated with them.  With more renewables going on the grid, negative power rates will increase and no doubt some entrepreneur will just start building batteries to take advantage of the mismatch in supply and demand.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

BTW as of this AM Texas looks to be doing demand response (rolling black outs). They are matching system demand to actual generation capacity. No doubt those with a wood stove and a pile of wood are lot happier than their neighbors without.

I am not familiar with the ERCOT website since its out of my region but I think this graph is showing that power is worth a whole lot of money. I hovered over a few points and they were in excess of $10,000 per MW/hr


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 15, 2021)

I think we could make a killing selling tip ups to the Texans!


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## sloeffle (Feb 15, 2021)

kennyp2339 said:


> This is a great example of why steady generation is needed w/ supplemental renewables. We need to really start investigating and planning for more nuclear generation, take the existing natural gas and turn them into peakers and still keep the door open for expanded renewables. Its the only feasible way at this point to make this all work, especially with our tech.


60 Minutes had a piece last night with Bill Gates about climate change. One of the companies that Bill Gates has plowed a lot of money into is a nuclear generation company called Terrapower. Even he knows that full renewables are not going to be attainable until battery tech can catch up.









						TerraPower
					

TerraPower is a nuclear innovation company dedicated to developing advanced nuclear reactors that will provide carbon-free energy to billions.




					www.terrapower.com


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## EbS-P (Feb 15, 2021)

Looks like tonight will be worse.  These climatological “anomalies”  are really becoming too common place.  The number of standby generators sold here after hurricane Florence was a lot.  Now the number of people employed to service them I’m sure has gone up as I see their vehicles all over.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

Unfortunately my guess is they are natural gas units and one of the results of this extreme cold is reduced gas supply.

One of the many issues with Global warming is with more energy in the atmosphere weather extremes are worse, the highs are higher and the lows are lower.  There have been artic intrusions into Texas in the past, AGW just makes them go deeper and last longer.


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## woodgeek (Feb 15, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> Unfortunately my guess is they are natural gas units and one of the results of this extreme cold is reduced gas supply.
> 
> One of the many issues with Global warming is with more energy in the atmosphere weather extremes are worse, the highs are higher and the lows are lower.  There have been artic intrusions into Texas in the past, AGW just makes them go deeper and last longer.



Lots of automagic natgas gennies sold in the wealthy burbs near me after SS Sandy.  Then the gas co did the math, and realized that they would pull down the distribution grid during an outage. So they went and dug up the streets all over in those places.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

I expect Texas will be way down on the trend but there are cities in US banning new natural gas hookups. The concept is the only source of power will be a green grid so why let new homes be part of the problem? Obviously a nice concept as long as the power grid stays up.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 15, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> I expect Texas will be way down on the trend but there are cities in US banning new natural gas hookups. The concept is the only source of power will be a green grid so why let new homes be part of the problem? Obviously a nice concept as long as the power grid stays up.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm also of the understanding that some of these "moratoriums" on natural gas to new homes are due to a supply problem. For whatever reason new gas transmission lines haven't been built and the existing system is at capacity, adding more demand to the mix would just exacerbate the lack of supply issue.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm also of the understanding that some of these "moratoriums" on natural gas to new homes are due to a supply problem. For whatever reason new gas transmission lines haven't been built and the existing system is at capacity, adding more demand to the mix would just exacerbate the lack of supply issue.



Is not just local supply constraints like the New York area, which was some arm twisting to get new natural gas supplies into the NYC area. Berkley CA started the trend for no new gas connections for global warming purposes and it has spread to other like minded areas. Berkeley became first US city to ban natural gas. Here's what that may mean for the future | Climate change | The Guardian


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## moresnow (Feb 15, 2021)

Never thought I'd read that firewood was in short supply in Texas! Just read it on my news feed. Interesting.
 Potential for ocean effect snows as well. Just like lake effect around the great lakes.  Bizarre.
 Snowbirds are terrified huddling up all over the south for a few days! So much for drinks around the pool.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

Just like Hurricanes, the press will latch onto it and then give it a few weeks and most will forget about it. I think the political rationalization will be that its too expensive to fix and they would rather keep the cheap power 99.9 percent of the year. Power plants do run at well below freezing temps all over the world, it just costs more to put them in a building and design them for freezing temps.


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## Brian26 (Feb 15, 2021)

I was reading that part of the issue is most Texas homes use heat pumps that are designed for the 30s and higher. These aren't like cold climate mini splits and they lose like 50% or more of their capacity at 17 degrees. There are probably tons of auxiliary electric strips running.  Those things use some serious electricty as they are usually like 10, 20, or 25 kw electric resistance loads.


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## John Galt (Feb 15, 2021)

Looks like I was wrong. We would get threats every few years that the power would be cut. I just got a call from my dad saying the electricity was 15 min on 15 min off.


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## peakbagger (Feb 15, 2021)

I think Brian hit a key item, no doubt the backup heating electric resistance elements are a major power draw and expect no need for a cold climate design heat pumps.

I also saw that Texas wind turbines are not equipped with deicing. Its standard up north but since it rarely freezes in Texas no need to install it(except when its desperately needed).  I thought the blades were now coated with hydrophobic coatings to resist icing. Of course up in my area the local wind farm has a fairly large ice throw zone. I have seen photos of when a piece of ice from the blades hits the ground.  They can be larger than a pickup truck and go a 1/4 of a mile.


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## Grizzerbear (Feb 15, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> I was reading that part of the issue is most Texas homes use heat pumps that are designed for the 30s and higher. These aren't like cold climate mini splits and they lose like 50% or more of their capacity at 17 degrees. There are probably tons of auxiliary electric strips running.  Those things use some serious electricty as they are usually like 10, 20, or 25 kw electric resistance loads.



Bingo


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## peakbagger (Feb 16, 2021)

$9000 a megawatt this morning. They stopped forecasting demand. They just call the member utilities to make cut and let the utilities make the cuts. Those that share circuits with hospitals and essential services are lucky, they will no black them out so that means everyone else gets blacked out for longer. One report is that some portion of this mess is the people who own the power plants just ignored winterization as it cost money and doesnt happen often enough. Apparently this was a partial cause on the last two big events.


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## paulnlee (Feb 16, 2021)

Boy that "global warming" is a bieatch


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## jetsam (Feb 16, 2021)

Came here to laugh at the "THAR BE NO REAL POWER OUTAGES IT'S A GUMMINT CONSPIRACY BECAUSE THE LIZARD PEOPLE WANT TO CRAM SOLARS DOWN OUR THROATS THANKS OBAMA!!" guy, but he didn't show?  

I expected more amusement out of you, Internet!


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## kennyp2339 (Feb 16, 2021)

@jetsam nope just some informative posts with a little bit of nerd, I think the pandemic broke us jump to conclusions with no real information type of people


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2021)

Interestingly, it doesn't appear to be the frozen windmills that are the biggest issue. Some of the problems seem to be a self-inflicted wound. Texas chose to uncouple from the national grid and go it on their own. This helped avoid pesky regulations and fees. They privatized the system and avoided pesky regulations like burying gas pipelines to protect from the elements. Doing so would have come in handy right now. Under normal circumstances, this has been nicely profitable for the wealthy owners, but now the piper is collecting.








						Texas’ power grid crumples under the cold
					

Competition for natural gas and frozen wind turbines are only some of the problems.




					arstechnica.com
				




Pretty lousy thing to have to tell your customers to pull the plug, right now.








						Electricity retailer Griddy’s unusual plea to Texas customers: Leave now before you get a big bill
					

Some retail power companies in Texas are making an unusual plea to their customers amid a deep freeze that has sent electricity prices skyrocketing: Please,...



					www.dallasnews.com


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## Dataman (Feb 16, 2021)

You're confusing Local Weather and Climate Change .  It's not the same.  https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-diff...s_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products


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## Brian26 (Feb 16, 2021)

It seems the real issue is none of the power plant and gas infrastructure is winterized.

I think I read 70 to 80 plants are down right now. Imagine all the frozen water and burst lines in industrial applications.

Texas blackouts triggered by frozen power infrastructure have left many wondering why the state’s electricity generators weren’t prepared for the cold.

The short answer: They aren’t required to cold-proof their assets. While generators in chillier regions are typically compelled by federal or state rules to protect their plants from the elements, Texas plants can leave their pipes, valves and pressure gauges exposed. It’s cheaper that way.


“The power plants in the Northeast, we put exterior closures around it,” said Michael Webber, the chief science and technology officer at Engie, and an energy professor at the University of Texas at Austin. “They wrap a building around the plant.”

While Texas’s grid operator has called for generators to winterize their facilities after a 2011 cold snap also led to blackouts, it can’t force the companies to do so, said Adrian Shelley, Texas office director of the advocacy group Public Citizen.


“From a generator perspective, the only incentive is to bring energy to market as cheaply as possible,” Shelley said. “Those sorts of investments aren’t recouped in any other way but by selling energy.”



			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 16, 2021)

If the generator is running, it doesn't need to be winterized.   I'm sure the biolers will keep the water quite warm.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 16, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> If the generator is running, it doesn't need to be winterized.   I'm sure the biolers will keep the water quite warm.



All it takes is a low point, dead leg, etc to be filled with water, the water freezes, splits the pipe and all of a sudden loss of water.


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## peakbagger (Feb 17, 2021)

In engineering every power  system is  usually designed to local design conditions that are tied back to long term monitoring sites like national weather service. That long term data is then processed using statistics and the result are values that are regarded as accurate within a certain percentage of time.  So there will be a table that lists a low temperature value for 95% of the time, and lower temp for 99% of the time and possible a third even lower value for 99.9% . These Texas events seem to occur about every 10 years which is 3650 days. So now in a 95% situation that is 182  days that will be colder than the published value. That means that for a system designed right to limit it may not run.  For 99% its 36.5 days for 99.1% its 3.65 days. If the risk is crop damage, many folks will take the 95%, it its people dying that 99.9 starts to look marginal. There is an up front cost to deal with lower temps and an ongoing cost to keep those measures in place.

What happens all the time is that investors and local or regional  politicians make a decision that they will take a higher risk to get higher short term rewards. Frequently power plants are built by developers, they see a financial opportunity and they develop a project to take advantage of the opportunity. They are usually required to have some of their own money in the game when they go to the investment community but once the plant is running they usually sell out their interest quickly. They are not in it for the long term so they are going to design the plant to the loosest possible standards they can get way with.  Politicians make a similar decision, allow electrical and gas infrastructure to be built cheap to boost the economy and then blame anyone but themselves when it doesn't work. Texas made that decision long ago and the blame game is just starting.


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## woodey (Feb 17, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> Mass is going to be the guinea pig for Clean Peak where no fossil generation (including natural gas peakers) will be used to cover a peak demand condition. They will pay a capacity payment to renewable generators for short term dispatch of renewable power.  Hydroplants in the region are installing battery banks to act as virtual pondage so they can sell more power during high demand times without exceeding their limits of discharge flow. They can charge the batteries up when there is minimal demand for power and then dispatch peak "renewable generation" when its in demand. The economics are lined up that new renewable projects most likely will have a battery integrated with them.  With more renewables going on the grid, negative power rates will increase and no doubt some entrepreneur will just start building batteries to take advantage of the mismatch in supply and demand.


Good luck,_ hope you will have a generator on stand by._


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## stoveliker (Feb 17, 2021)

woodey said:


> Good luck,_ hope you will have a generator on stand by._



Like, as in Texas you mean...?!


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## woodey (Feb 17, 2021)

Can somebody explain to me the economics behind the shutdown of the Keystone pipeline. From what I understand the product will still be delivered but now by trucking and by train. This will put more pollution into our atmosphere and push prices at the pump up along with food many other commodities.


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## peakbagger (Feb 17, 2021)

woodey said:


> Good luck,_ hope you will have a generator on stand by._
> [/QUOTE
> 
> The rest of the US has to follow NERC reliability standards so even if Mass tries clean peak there are plenty of oil fired peakers sitting in reserve. These peakers get paid not to run but to be ready to run in 5 minutes off of a tank of onsite fuel that will cover them for a couple of days.  Texas decided they didnt need this type of reliability as it raises power rates. If it didnt start up and put ouyt full ouput in 15 minutes it had to pay the grid a bundle in penalties
> ...


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## Grizzerbear (Feb 17, 2021)

woodey said:


> Can somebody explain to me the economics behind the shutdown of the Keystone pipeline. From what I understand the product will still be delivered but now by trucking and by train. This will put more pollution into our atmosphere and push prices at the pump up along with food many other commodities.



Warren Buffet.....Berkshire Hathaway......Biden. Google it.


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## peakbagger (Feb 17, 2021)

The theory is the Keystone was intended to carry tar sands crude to the world markets down through the US. Tar sand and shale  oil is already marginally break even at low oil prices, Sending it through a pipeline reduces the costs in the long term making more of it potentially hitting the market. Environmental groups in the US wanted to stop it but since they were in the US they couldn't stop it at the source so they stopped it at the pipeline. Trucks and trains can move it but it costs more so it drives the delivered cost up which means its less competitive and in theory less gets produced. Note the pipeline could go east west through Canada but I believe some tribes in BC are blocking any pipelines. 

Sure some native tribes were propped up by anti pipeline funding but I suspect if it was just the tribes with no backing it would still be built. 

Fundamentally the world proven oil reserves is now far more than what can be used to avoid climate disaster barring a technological breakthrough on a worldwide level. The current society goal is to drive up the price of fossil fuels particularly carbon rich ones  to drive the use of renewable.


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## woodey (Feb 17, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Warren Buffet.....Berkshire Hathaway......Biden. Google it.


I'm well aware of the politics behind it but am concerned about the economic effects it will have , especially on the poor.


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## woodgeek (Feb 17, 2021)

woodey said:


> I'm well aware of the politics behind it but am concerned about the economic effects it will have , especially on the poor.



The number of job associated with building the pipeline and maintaining it afterwards are miniscule.  Why not worry about the train operators that the pipeline will cause to lose business?

Its like building a bridge to nowhere.


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## semipro (Feb 17, 2021)

woodey said:


> Can somebody explain to me the economics behind the shutdown of the Keystone pipeline. From what I understand the product will still be delivered but now by trucking and by train. This will put more pollution into our atmosphere and push prices at the pump up along with food many other commodities.


I agree with part of your perspective especially as related to efficiency and safety, until I found out that the Mountain Valley Pipeline being built near my home was:

Taking land by eminent domain
Taking just about the worst possible route through karst terrain, near homes, across recreation areas like the Appalachian Trail
Not prepared to respond to problems that occur, nor deal with its eventual closure or remediation
Having very few current and future positive effects on the local economy
Depressing land/home values
For fracked natural gas that is destined primarily for foreign customers, adversely impacting our country's energy security
*All for the profit of pipeline investors* (some of whom serve on regulating boards like FERC), not for the general good.
I realize that this extends well beyond the "economics" you mentioned but I still wanted to share.

As an example, this 40+ inch dia. pipeline is being built this close to our neighbors' houses, on national forest land no less.   Check out the right of way below.


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## peakbagger (Feb 17, 2021)

To further the thread drift (time for splitting the thread?)

The Biden administration has acknowledged the major economic impact of the shift from fossils to renewables. Just like West Virginia is "road kill" due to the shutting down of coal generation, other areas will be road kill from fossil fuels. The question is if that acknowledgement will actually convert into policy to deal with the shift? Economic theory says people will move to where the jobs are but the reality is many people are fixed to their own little plot of land and are unable and unwilling to move.   Canada has large amounts of hydro potential that has not been developed and they are looking at that as a future economic driver to replace oil. it will happen in different areas of the country (much of it controlled by first nations groups) than the tar sands and that means economic dislocation.

Folks dont realize, this decarbonization project is  bigger than the Manhattan Project and is probably right up there with the Korean Conflict maybe WW2 with respect to  nationwide impact. There will be winners and losers and no doubt politicians will try to get back into power under the premise of delaying the inevitable, it happened four years and no doubt it will happen at the upcoming midterms.


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2021)

It should also be noted that the Texas grid has some of the lowest reserve margins in the country, typically 8% when in some areas 50% is more common. It seems to be set up to fail with more extreme weather events becoming more common.  They did not account for the gas going to heat the homes in an extreme cold event, shortchanging the power plants.

Has anyone read  Shorting the Grid: The Hidden Fragility of Our Electric Grid by Meredith Angwin?


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## maple1 (Feb 18, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> If the generator is running, it doesn't need to be winterized.   I'm sure the biolers will keep the water quite warm.



Houses with operating heating systems can have pipes freeze and break. Just takes some cold moving air. Which there is all kinds of, outdoors.


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## EatenByLimestone (Feb 18, 2021)

A naval boiler runs at 500F, under pressure.   Now tell me how that moving air theory works again?


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## woodgeek (Feb 18, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> A naval boiler runs at 500F, under pressure.   Now tell me how that moving air theory works again?



I dunno, a little moisture in the gas line feeding it fuel condenses and freezes in a valve, and it shuts down?

The makeup water line freezes solid and it shuts down?


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## SpaceBus (Feb 18, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> A naval boiler runs at 500F, under pressure.   Now tell me how that moving air theory works again?


The proof is in the pudding, last I checked 70-80 of the power plants went down. When we were living in an RV in NC our second winter the water pipes froze when I shut the tap for more than 30 minutes, during the day. Usually we dripped the taps in the winter to keep the pipes from freezing, but one time I forgot to open the tap back up. It really doesn't take much in an unwinterized system.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 18, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> $9000 a megawatt this morning. They stopped forecasting demand. They just call the member utilities to make cut and let the utilities make the cuts. Those that share circuits with hospitals and essential services are lucky, they will no black them out so that means everyone else gets blacked out for longer. One report is that some portion of this mess is the people who own the power plants just ignored winterization as it cost money and doesnt happen often enough. Apparently this was a partial cause on the last two big events.



We think we might be some of those lucky ones in that there is a fire station down the hill from us, and we have mostly kept power.  It is snowing again quite heavily now, and there are warnings that the weather is expected to bring lines down.  Most roads to our area are entirely closed.

Monday I went out and raked the snow off of our solar panels and did most of the neighbors' huge array (twice the size of ours).  It was a sunny day that day, and we could see that we were feeding power back to the grid.  I was surprised to see that we also had surplus power on Tuesday and Wednesday despite pretty thick cloud cover.  (Even though we have power, we have closed off a good bit of our house and are doing what we can to conserve.  We're rapidly running through the last of our firewood, but we have enough.)  Most everybody else we've communicated with in this area seems to be without power and oftentimes without water, but people are helping one another as they can.


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## jetsam (Feb 18, 2021)

DuaeGuttae said:


> We think we might be some of those lucky ones in that there is a fire station down the hill from us, and we have mostly kept power.  It is snowing again quite heavily now, and there are warnings that the weather is expected to bring lines down.  Most roads to our area are entirely closed.
> 
> Monday I went out and raked the snow off of our solar panels and did most of the neighbors' huge array (twice the size of ours).  It was a sunny day that day, and we could see that we were feeding power back to the grid.  I was surprised to see that we also had surplus power on Tuesday and Wednesday despite pretty thick cloud cover.  (Even though we have power, we have closed off a good bit of our house and are doing what we can to conserve.  We're rapidly running through the last of our firewood, but we have enough.)  Most everybody else we've communicated with in this area seems to be without power and oftentimes without water, but people are helping one another as they can.



Let me know if you need any tips for picking out standing dead trees to harvest for immediate burning, I've picked up some experience over the years.


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## jetsam (Feb 18, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> A naval boiler runs at 500F, under pressure.   Now tell me how that moving air theory works again?



I interviewed a guy for a job yesterday... he was a retired engineer who had done a career in power plants.

He said that in the summer the air temp on the floor runs 120-150 degrees, but in the
winter, small lines freezing  was a thing that could happen because the floor is not just open to outside air, it has a tremendous volume of forced outside air hitting it.  And he is talking about plants in New York where they expect cold winters!

I really wanted to ask him a million power plant questions, but I also had an interview to do... I hired him though, so I'll ask him later!   


Good article on the whole situation over at ars technica.


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## peakbagger (Feb 18, 2021)

Some trivia to confuse the Texas issue. Gas turbines put out more power the colder it is. In order to run at rated output in hot weather, they use very large air conditioners to cool the air going into them. This eats up some of their capacity to run the chillers.  They will gladly run at very low temps and put out well over rated capacity the colder it gets. The limitation is the sizing of the fuel system the size of the electrical generator and the size of the transformers used to connect to the grid. The transfomers are usually air cooled and they gain some capacity to handle power at lower temps but at some point they get too small and the output has to be limited to the transformer capacity.


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## peakbagger (Feb 18, 2021)

jetsam said:


> I interviewed a guy for a job yesterday... he was a retired engineer who had done a career in power plants.
> 
> He said that in the summer the air temp on the floor runs 120-150 degrees, but in the
> winter, small lines freezing  was a thing that could happen because the floor is not just open to outside air, it has a tremendous volume of forced outside air hitting it.  And he is talking about plants in New York where they expect cold winters!


Yes, steam coils in air preheaters will freeze at low temps. They have be specially designed for the flow of cold air or it freezes the condensate before it can make it out of the unit.  There are plenty of articles on the internet on how to avoid it but steam in general is a dying art for many designers so crappy designs get out there. When I worked in Northeast Wisconsin there were special "freeze resistant coils we could buy but usually the biggest change was you bought it from a salesman that made sure you plumbed it right.  

We had a big boiler job up in NH at our mill where we dropping in a new 11 story boiler into a 9 story building. We had all sorts of steam traps on various systems and the contractors decided they were not worth collecting so they would route the remote ones condensate drain outside through a holes in the wall. There was rush to get the place running before winter but luckily no one got speared by the  icicles that would form. An icicle dropping 9 to 10 stories will punch a hole through a car roof and a person. We had to rush around and reroute every condensate drain back into the building before it got really cold and as long as it ran,  the floor was wet in a lot of spots.  

It was rebuilt into a biomass boiler with a big cooling tower located way too close to the building and a large steel frame structure, When the wind blows, the water vapor from the cooling tower condenses on the structural frame and freezes into icicles. They have to cordon off a large area around that structure all winter to keep anyone from getting killed by falling ice. Most of this is just experience and as people retire that knowledge is lost.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 18, 2021)

woodey said:


> I'm well aware of the politics behind it but am concerned about the economic effects it will have , especially on the poor.



The rich get richer, the poor will get poorer, you know, the American Dream.


The reality is there are millions of Americans a mere hundred dollars a month away from going broke. Increasing any of their living costs threatens their survival, or at least threatens to throw them out on the streets, such as those caused by artificially increased fuel prices. I'm sure the government will give out rebates or credits for electric cars, or solar panels, or buying renewable energy, non of which the poorest Americans could afford, with or without the rebate. Of course the US Federal Reserve is dumping trillions into the US economy, but as a Canadian I receive more of this money by investing a small amount in the stock market than the poorest of Americans do in the form of stimulus checks.

Keystone was partially killed by US oil companies. America buys heavy Canadian crude (WCS) at a discount due to Canada's lack of access to other markets, allowing Keystone to be built would have increased the value of WCS and resulted in lost profits from US refineries processing Canadian crude.

Canada is building a pipeline to the west, TMX, that will ship our crude to Asian markets. Successive US administrations have presented major challenges to trade between our 2 nations, unfortunately this has forced Canada to shop it's resources around elsewhere.


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## Brian26 (Feb 19, 2021)

This is pretty cool and hopefully more hybrid vehicles offer it. The new Ford F150 hybrid has a 7.2 kw built in generator and a lot of people have been using it in Texas. People report running for 3 days straight and only using a 1/4 tank of gas. It appears to cycle the gas engine to recharge the batteries. 









						Texas Ford F-150 hybrid owners take advantage of generator function
					

In the midst of the winter-storm-caused Texas blackout, owners of Ford F-150 PowerBoost hybrids have been using the generator function to run appliances.




					www.autoblog.com


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## SpaceBus (Feb 19, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> This is pretty cool and hopefully more hybrid vehicles offer it. The new Ford F150 hybrid has a 7.2 kw built in generator and a lot of people have been using it in Texas. People report running for 3 days straight and only using a 1/4 tank of gas. It appears to cycle the gas engine to recharge the batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not bad usage, maybe 2 gallons of gas a day?


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## woodgeek (Feb 19, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> This is pretty cool and hopefully more hybrid vehicles offer it. The new Ford F150 hybrid has a 7.2 kw built in generator and a lot of people have been using it in Texas. People report running for 3 days straight and only using a 1/4 tank of gas. It appears to cycle the gas engine to recharge the batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely.  I have been using a $300 inverter hooked up to my 2015 Chevy Volt (and earlier EVs) to backfeed my house for the last 5 years.  Every EV has 12V powered accessories, usually powered by a 1500 W DC-DC supply.  My system can do 1200 W 120V sine wave AC forever, 1500W for 10 minutes and 1 second surge to 3 kW.  This is enough to run my fridge, my stove fans, my lights, my wifi and my electronics.  I can forget that I don't have power.

My house's 120V loads only run 300-400W on average, which the Volt provides from the traction battery.  It cycles the engine on for a minute every 5-10 minutes, once the traction battery is depleted.  This requires about a gallon of gas per day.  The 8 gallon tank will last a week.

A hybrid EV is way nicer than a gas generator.... its quiet, has pollution controls, and bc the engine cycles off it has low standby gas consumption at low loads. Perfect!


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## peakbagger (Feb 19, 2021)

Floating around on the web are folks that buy surplus UPS units and plug directly into the main power bus on  a Prius. They get some remarkable run time off the combination.


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## woodgeek (Feb 19, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> Floating around on the web are folks that buy surplus UPS units and plug directly into the main power bus on  a Prius. They get some remarkable run time off the combination.



Agreed.  Running off the 12V bus is limiting (1200W continuous out for a 80% eff inverter), but soooo much safer.  Think about shorting out a 12V car battery....scary!  Now think about shorting out a 1000 lb lithium ion battery wired to put out 400VDC and few hundred amps continuously!  Apocalyptic! 

For the record, I was doing house wiring when I was in grade school, have worked around 50 kV lab power supplies in labs in accelerators for years, etc.  I will NOT tap into an EV traction battery.  No thank you.


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## begreen (Feb 19, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> Floating around on the web are folks that buy surplus UPS units and plug directly into the main power bus on  a Prius. They get some remarkable run time off the combination.


I gave a 240v UPS to someone with a Prius after we sold ours and got the Volt. I never got around to doing the conversion, but he was tickled pink and eager to try it out. Like you, messing with the traction battery gave me pause even though I too have worked with electrics for a long time (dad was a licensed electrical contractor for 27 yrs. among other things.)

Woodgeek, what inverter did you end up getting?


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Feb 20, 2021)

Holy crap - some people in TX on variable rate plans who are lucky enough to have power are paying $9 /kwh. People who went on these plans to save a few bucks and may be the ones least likely to afford an electricity bill in the thousands of dollars. All this because the political and business leaders wanted to go cheap on protecting the grid from the cold like the rest of the country does.






__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					amp.ft.com
				




Then, on top of all of that you have stories like this where a kid froze to death without power. This is a pure total failure of leadership and regular people are going to bear the brunt of it. 









						Hypothermia suspected in death of Conroe boy
					

The 11-year-old boy played in snow before apparently dying in sleep.




					www.houstonchronicle.com


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## SpaceBus (Feb 20, 2021)

This Texas story just keeps getting worse and worse.


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## maple1 (Feb 20, 2021)

Wife's cousin is in Houston.  Haven't heard the last couple of days but they were without power for 2 days then into 2 hours on 3 off. They had 2 other families move in with them because they had a fireplace.  She's from up here and he's from Minnesota so they are pretty capable when it comes to dealing with the cold.  But the millions that have no idea - lots of horror stories yet to come out, just sad.


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## tlc1976 (Feb 20, 2021)

We will see in a couple weeks how much more Covid has spread as a result of people being forced to huddle up with other households to survive. Sad.


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## semipro (Feb 20, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> Floating around on the web are folks that buy surplus UPS units and plug directly into the main power bus on  a Prius. They get some remarkable run time off the combination.


As I've mentioned here before, I bought a Toyota Highlander Hybrid with the intent of doing this.  The challenge has been finding a reasonably priced UPS with the required battery input voltage (288 VDC nominal) and a sufficient duty cycle, the latter being most restrictive.

Now that we have solar PV with storage at our house, with an inverter that has dual 5000 watt, 150-425 VDC inputs I keep wondering why I can't reroute one of those inverter inputs to the Highlander motive battery during a period of extended low solar production.  As someone noted already, you just leave the vehicle running and the engine will start/stop as needed to keep the motive battery pack charged.


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## peakbagger (Feb 20, 2021)

The key with any crisis like this is deflect the blame


semipro said:


> As I've mentioned here before, I bought a Toyota Highlander Hybrid with the intent of doing this.  The challenge has been finding a reasonably priced UPS with the required battery input voltage (288 VDC nominal) and a sufficient duty cycle, the latter being most restrictive.
> 
> Now that we have solar PV with storage at our house, with an inverter that has dual 5000 watt, 150-425 VDC inputs I keep wondering why I can't reroute one of those inverter inputs to the Highlander motive battery during a period of extended low solar production.  As someone noted already, you just leave the vehicle running and the engine will start/stop as needed to keep the motive battery pack charged.



Technically if can be done but its a low risk versus reward situation for Toyota. The amperage being messed with are significant and lithium batteries are very finicky, look at them wrong and they melt into puddle along with the vehicle.  Therefore Toyota is decidely reluctant to allow a exterior connection.  T think the Prius experimenters still have an issue that pulling power out of the hybrid battery isnt a problem but putting external power into it means interfacing with the factory BMS.

 There are attempts to put in industry standards to integrate vehicle batteries with the power system but the money is in getting a standard to connect vehicle batteries into the grid so they can be used for grid support.


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## woodgeek (Feb 20, 2021)

begreen said:


> Woodgeek, what inverter did you end up getting?



I got a 'Tigerclaw' Chinese 1500W sine wave.  No longer available, but many similar are on Amazon for $200.   You need to hook it up with DC wiring and battery clamps that are rated for 120A continuous.  I also put a 150A fuse in-line and a surge suppressor and a plug in power meter on the output.   Some of these inverters put out some RFI, so I got a cheap suppressor rated for good RFI rejection. 

That gear put me closer to $300 for the whole works.

I have an interlocked 4 pin generator plug for backfeeding, and wired a adapter that ties the two 120V branches together and drives them in phase off the inverter.  All 240V appliances thus are off automatically, but I also flip their breakers to be on the safe side.


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## semipro (Feb 20, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> The key with any crisis like this is deflect the blame
> 
> 
> Technically if can be done but its a low risk versus reward situation for Toyota. The amperage being messed with are significant and lithium batteries are very finicky, look at them wrong and they melt into puddle along with the vehicle.  Therefore Toyota is decidely reluctant to allow a exterior connection.  T think the Prius experimenters still have an issue that pulling power out of the hybrid battery isnt a problem but putting external power into it means interfacing with the factory BMS.
> ...


Thanks.  I was hoping you'd comment.
The motive battery in our 2006 Highlander is actually a NiMH unit.  I only plan to pull power from the battery, only the engine would charge it.  I'd only do this when the grid is down and solar insolation is insufficient. 
I've read that Toyota is protective of its batteries and maintains the charge within a relatively narrow range of min/max voltage.  That shouldn't change under the operation I'd be doing.
Point well taken on Lithium chemistry batteries.   The feedback I've gotten here and elsewhere led to my decision to go with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for our 20 kWh of PV storage rather than using salvaged Chevy Volt batteries as I'd originally planned.


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## semipro (Feb 20, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> There are attempts to put in industry standards to integrate vehicle batteries with the power system but the money is in getting a standard to connect vehicle batteries into the grid so they can be used for grid support.


And, as @woodgeek mentioned earlier, the idea of V2G for grid storage may not work well due to a variety of issues.  
I agree with that but do see opportunities for V2MicroG connection where the EV parked in your driveway can provide some backup power to the house during grid outages, basically a Powerwall in your driveway.


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## woodgeek (Feb 20, 2021)

semipro said:


> And, as @woodgeek mentioned earlier, the idea of V2G for grid storage may not work well due to a variety of issues.
> I agree with that but do see opportunities for V2MicroG connection where the EV parked in your driveway can provide some backup power to the house during grid outages, basically a Powerwall in your driveway.



Agree.  Nissan sold a number of systems for the LEAF in Japan, but not to my knowledge in the US.  As for tapping the traction DC, the obv way to do it is through the Level 3 charging port, which is interlocked for safety until the HV contacts are made.  I was lucky that 1200W was sufficient for my needs.


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## DBoon (Feb 20, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Increasing any of their living costs threatens their survival, or at least threatens to throw them out on the streets, such as those caused by artificially increased fuel prices.



I will not argue that the US has done a good job in providing for the 50% of its citizens who live on the edge where literally a $500 unforeseen bill is financially catastrophic. Most of these 50% are hard-working people who struggle to live in a system that doesn't provide much opportunity for them to improve their situation, for a lot of different reasons. 

Having said that, a government that artificially keeps power prices too low by improper planning, e.g.:

 TX governor appointing all of ERCOT's oversight members, none of whom live in TX
ERCOT not ensuring that utilities provide power reliable electric power in conditions that should/could have been foreseen
ERCOT not requiring utilities to have adequate backup generation in place for unforeseen demand
ERCOT not having any interconnections with neighboring regions to provide grid stability/reliability during unforeseen power issues.
Utilities/power producers not voluntarily doing things such as winterizing their plants that would have mitigated the loss of generation capability because it would hurt their profits.
So, if you want some of the cheapest electricity in the country, you might do those five things. But then your citizens have to deal with massive power outages, damage to their personal property that might far exceed their savings from cheaper electricity, and perhaps even death. It doesn't seem like the greatest trade to me, but it is the natural result of too much of an emphasis on a free-market approach in a case where free-markets generally do a pretty bad job of pricing for something important (e.g., reliability). 

The good citizens of Texas should complain at the ballot box at the next election. If they don't, they deserve the result they get. I am sure many of them don't agree with Rick Perry that they would rather go without power for 3 days than have the Federal Government mandate some extra cost for improved reliability.

There are ways to cushion the impact of slightly higher electricity rates for those least able to afford them. And TX electricity prices of about 8.5 cents/kWh need not become that much more expensive to ensure the reliability that people in TX deserve. 

We are not a third-world country, but sometimes some governments seem to think like one.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 20, 2021)

I'm pretty much sold on a PHEV for our next vehicle purchase.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 20, 2021)

DBoon said:


> I will not argue that the US has done a good job in providing for the 50% of its citizens who live on the edge where literally a $500 unforeseen bill is financially catastrophic. Most of these 50% are hard-working people who struggle to live in a system that doesn't provide much opportunity for them to improve their situation, for a lot of different reasons.
> 
> Having said that, a government that artificially keeps power prices too low by improper planning, e.g.:
> 
> ...



My point was relating more to Keystone than what's happening in Texas right now.

That being said here in Alberta we have a system similar to what Texas has with ERCOT.  Ours is called AESO, and pricing is based on supply/demand. We, like Texas, have small interconnects to neighboring provinces and Montana, but for the most part are self-sufficient. Like ERCOT, live data is available on the AESO website (ets.aeso.ca) showing demand, which generators are running, how much they are producing, and supply surplus or deficits.

We do have differences though, our pool price maxes out at $999.99/mwh, 10% of what Texas is. There are also very stringent requirements about what the generator must do to ensure reliable operation, and can be forced, at the request of AESO, to start up and generate electricity at any given time.

I believe your thinking is flawed, and is a knee jerk reaction to these blackouts. The supply/demand market is a viable option, and keeps government and tax payer dollars out of the energy market, allowing consumers to bear the true cost of the energy consumed. Our grid is reliable, and the supply and demand based market we have can, and does truly demonstrate that renewables can be built without subsidies and still be profitable. Our average pool price for 2020 was 4.5 cents/kwh, much below Texas (especially considering this is in CAD), my lights never went off last year, relating cheap electricity to unreliable electricity is a poor correlation. Relating government involvement to unreliability fits much better.

I will agree that the entire US political system is flawed, the government works for the highest bidder or highest paying lobbyist, not the citizens that voted them in. Makes me sad to see an entire country divided by political ideals, when the politicians seem to have a hard time giving a moments thought to the people they claim to represent.

What needs to happen is the Texas government needs to setup arms length regulators to oversee the electrical sector. AESO is like this, it's a not-for-profit organization whose mandate is to ensure the reliability and cost effectiveness of the electrical grid, no government intervention required. Those interested might want to take a read through this, https://www.aeso.ca/aeso/about-the-aeso/#:~:text=Mission,openly competitive market for electricity.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 20, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> This is pretty cool and hopefully more hybrid vehicles offer it. The new Ford F150 hybrid has a 7.2 kw built in generator and a lot of people have been using it in Texas. People report running for 3 days straight and only using a 1/4 tank of gas. It appears to cycle the gas engine to recharge the batteries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Id be watching that like a hawk.  Since i has to stay outside for the exhaust.  Great advertising for that option for Ford though.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 20, 2021)

jetsam said:


> Let me know if you need any tips for picking out standing dead trees to harvest for immediate burning, I've picked up some experience over the years.



The trees make it easy down here since the vast majority are evergreen.  I doubt I'd ever use sago palms as firewood, but I'm wondering if I'm going to have some dead ones after this week since the leaves had all turned brown.  They may grow back from the centers, but it got cold enough to have killed them.  We'll see.

I was a bit shocked when I walked into our barn (woodshed) this afternoon and saw one lone piece of wood on our "immediate burning" rack.  We had other wood in our back room of the barn (the kiln) and some in the house, but I hadn't realized that we had used so much.  (My husband had been doing the wood hauling.)  We spent the afternoon sawing up a good portion of forty-two cedar trees that we had cleared from our side yard last March.  They were all pretty small (most of you guys wouldn't bother with them, but it's what we have), and sitting for a year in Texas heat and drought has already seasoned some of it.  We also cut up some dead oak branches that we had trimmed this winter.  We'll pick and choose the driest stuff if we need it this winter, but now we have a good start on next year's wood.


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## DBoon (Feb 21, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> The supply/demand market is a viable option, and keeps government and tax payer dollars out of the energy market, allowing consumers to bear the true cost of the energy consumed. Our grid is reliable, and the supply and demand based market we have can, and does truly demonstrate that renewables can be built without subsidies and still be profitable. Our average pool price for 2020 was 4.5 cents/kwh, much below Texas (especially considering this is in CAD), my lights never went off last year, relating cheap electricity to unreliable electricity is a poor correlation. Relating government involvement to unreliability fits much better.


My core point is that the government in Texas is very proud to point to how little government involvement there is in Texas and then be shocked (shocked!) when things go horribly wrong with their electrical grid. And  just a little bit of government involvement, as it sounds like you have in Alberta, can result in a far better market for consumers and much higher reliability, apparently (as you point out) with little to no impact on cost.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 21, 2021)

DBoon said:


> My core point is that the government in Texas is very proud to point to how little government involvement there is in Texas and then be shocked (shocked!) when things go horribly wrong with their electrical grid. And  just a little bit of government involvement, as it sounds like you have in Alberta, can result in a far better market for consumers and much higher reliability, apparently (as you point out) with little to no impact on cost.



From what I see a lot of the issue comes in the form of which authority has jurisdiction. From what I can tell there are federal, and state level regulation on these facilities, compounded then with ERCOT tasked with the operation of these facilities and imposing some regulations of their own. I see a bunch of finger pointing in the months to come for who is to blame.

With the exception of stack emissions and carbon pricing, which fall under federal jurisdiction, our system is regulated by AESO. They are the one stop shop authority. If the province needs new generating capacity they seek out tenders and proposals for new capacity. If Alberta wants to increase its renewable generating capacity the Alberta government mandates the AESO to do so, AESO then offers contracts for the facilities to be built, reviewing and eventually having the best private proposals proceed.

I personally believe this to be the best system, it allows the most knowledgeable people in the field to make the decisions, instead of politicians pandering to the political flavor of the day.


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## Grizzerbear (Feb 22, 2021)

My wife's grandmother heats her house with a heat pump. She just called us yesterday evening and said that she had just opened her electric bill and it showed that she owed 900 and some odd dollars. YIKES!! Her normal bill runs around 150-200 in the winter. What's crazy is her power was shut off for a couple hours for two or three days during this billing cycle....part of a larger rolling blackout because of the energy demand and shortage. Now I don't have the same provider as her. She has liberty utilities and I'm on South West electric co-op. Liberty utilities is notoriously higher than Southwest and I mainly heat with wood so i'm not worried about my bill....but dang. I expect a lot of folks here around buffalo that are under Liberties service are to be sticker shocked in the coming weeks.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 22, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> My wife's grandmother heats her house with a heat pump. She just called us yesterday evening and said that she had just opened her electric bill and it showed that she owed 900 and some odd dollars. YIKES!! Her normal bill runs around 150-200 in the winter. What's crazy is her power was shut off for a couple hours for two or three days during this billing cycle....part of a larger rolling blackout because of the energy demand and shortage. Now I don't have the same provider as her. She has liberty utilities and I'm on South West electric co-op. Liberty utilities is notoriously higher than Southwest and I mainly heat with wood so i'm not worried about my bill....but dang. I expect a lot of folks here around buffalo that are under Liberties service are to be sticker shocked in the coming weeks.


I just watched the news report on the Texas state government putting a moratorium on disconnections due to non payment and stopping all billing. Seeing the countless videos of houses with ruptured pipes I just feel so bad for all those affected by the storm.


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## Grizzerbear (Feb 22, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I just watched the news report on the Texas state government putting a moratorium on disconnections due to non payment and stopping all billing. Seeing the countless videos of houses with ruptured pipes I just feel so bad for all those affected by the storm.



They need to. I can only imagine the the problems with busted pipes down there. They are woefully unprepared for such cold weather down their. A lot of houses are just built on cinder blocks with skirting....much like a trailer house. We were busy as hell thawing meters and shutting service off due to frozen and busted service lines here so I can't imagine the scale of problems down there. I bet the public entities have been working around the clock. Crappy deal down there.


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## peakbagger (Feb 22, 2021)

The was an article on Texas homeowners insurance I saw. They are already one of the highest states for homeowners insurance.  Pure speculation is poor enforcement of building codes and standards is probably part of the mix.  Much of Texas are boom towns spread over core cities with development pushed out to undeveloped counties and that is recipe for poor enforcement.  Insurance companies were threatening to go even  higher on rates and the state made some big changes to limit homeowner litigation and reduce payouts. No doubt this will raise the rates in the future.


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## jetsam (Feb 22, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> My wife's grandmother heats her house with a heat pump. She just called us yesterday evening and said that she had just opened her electric bill and it showed that she owed 900 and some odd dollars. YIKES!! Her normal bill runs around 150-200 in the winter. What's crazy is her power was shut off for a couple hours for two or three days during this billing cycle....part of a larger rolling blackout because of the energy demand and shortage. Now I don't have the same provider as her. She has liberty utilities and I'm on South West electric co-op. Liberty utilities is notoriously higher than Southwest and I mainly heat with wood so i'm not worried about my bill....but dang. I expect a lot of folks here around buffalo that are under Liberties service are to be sticker shocked in the coming weeks.



Check out this guy's bill


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## Grizzerbear (Feb 22, 2021)

jetsam said:


> Check out this guy's bill



Yea I've read of quite a few of these extreme charges for power. 16 grand though.....good lord that's insane.


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## DBoon (Feb 22, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> From what I can tell there are federal, and state level regulation on these facilities


Texas' electric grid is essentially not connected to other state grids. Therefore, since there is no interstate trade in electricity that is no federal regulation of the grid. It is completely a state-created issue. I also feel terrible for the people who have had this crisis inflicted on them, but they only have their state regulators to blame.


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## jetsam (Feb 22, 2021)

They may have done it to themselves on purpose, but that 'they' is the millionaires and billionaires who own utilities and lawmakers, not the poor schmucks who get $9/kwh electric bills.

Now they'll try to look like they're walking it back a little until it falls out of the news cycle, then it'll be back to figuring out how to simultaneously squeeze the little guy and make him scream and holler and vote for more.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 22, 2021)

DBoon said:


> Texas' electric grid is essentially not connected to other state grids. Therefore, since there is no interstate trade in electricity that is no federal regulation of the grid. It is completely a state-created issue. I also feel terrible for the people who have had this crisis inflicted on them, but they only have their state regulators to blame.



I'm no expert in US electricity regulation, nor do I care to attempt to interpret the mess that are most US regulations, so I'll take your word for it. That being said there are 5 active interconnects between Texas and neighboring states, and as of this moment 4 are transmitting electricity, surely federal regulation applies to this?





__





						Real-Time System Conditions
					





					www.ercot.com
				




I feel bad for Texans, but some of these problems seem so obvious, at least when I live in a cold climate and expect these issues. Like seriously, who puts a water heater in an un-heated attic? How do water mains and fire hydrants freeze in a week long cold spell? Not putting anti-freeze in power plant cooling systems?

I feel this isn't a specific issue, it's a systematic design issue within many industries and disciplines in the southern states, this time it was ERCOT that got caught with their pants down.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 22, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> The was an article on Texas homeowners insurance I saw. They are already one of the highest states for homeowners insurance.  Pure speculation is poor enforcement of building codes and standards is probably part of the mix.  Much of Texas are boom towns spread over core cities with development pushed out to undeveloped counties and that is recipe for poor enforcement.  Insurance companies were threatening to go even  higher on rates and the state made some big changes to limit homeowner litigation and reduce payouts. No doubt this will raise the rates in the future.



I think your speculation is probably in part right.  It was pretty shocking to move from Northern Virginia where I had to have a permit and inspection to change a ceiling fixture to an unincorporated part of a Texas county where there is no AHJ to do any inspections whatsoever.  The ostensible reason, however, for the high homeowner's (and auto) insurance premiums is hail damage.  There have been pretty costly storms in recent years, and insurance companies cite the high likelihood of hail storms as the reason for the rates.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 22, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I feel bad for Texans, but some of these problems seem so obvious, at least when I live in a cold climate and expect these issues. Like seriously, who puts a water heater in an un-heated attic? How do water mains and fire hydrants freeze in a week long cold spell? Not putting anti-freeze in power plant cooling systems?



The thing is they seem obvious to you because you're used to freezing temperatures for long durations, but they really aren't obvious to people who don't have any other frame of reference.  I moved to Texas a few years ago from "up North" (Virginia, which is still a southern state), and it's a whole different world down here.  People look at me funny when I express displeasure about having water heaters and HVAC in unconditioned attics ("But where else do you put them?")  They really can't imagine doing it differently because they've never seen anything different.  Maybe because power has historically been cheap, energy efficiency just isn't as much of a thing down here. 

I was shocked when shopping for houses that most didn't have gutters.  To me that was the equivalent of not having windows or something, but gutters are a real-estate "upgrade" here.  My husband and I have been slowing upgrading.  Gutters were our summer project.  My realtor down here was from this area and was really surprised to hear that gutters are taken for granted on most homes in Virginia.  Gutters aren't exactly on topic, but it just stands out in my mind because of how shocked our realtor was by my perspective.  A lot of perspective is based on experience, and I had never experienced houses with no gutters, and a lot of Texans haven't experienced cold like that before and definitely not for that duration.

I have limited experience living in Texas, and other parts of the state perhaps do things differently from how they do in my county (it's considered South or South central).   At least here it's just a given that the air temperature may sink to freezing on occasion, but the ground just doesn't freeze.  When it does freeze, it's short-lived, and everything warms up the next day.  Attics don't freeze because of heat from the house.  That definitely wasn't the case this time around, and I think it's great to be prepared as it may well happen more, but I can see how the average individual really wasn't going to be prepared for what just happened.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 23, 2021)

DuaeGuttae said:


> The thing is they seem obvious to you because you're used to freezing temperatures for long durations, but they really aren't obvious to people who don't have any other frame of reference.  I moved to Texas a few years ago from "up North" (Virginia, which is still a southern state), and it's a whole different world down here.  People look at me funny when I express displeasure about having water heaters and HVAC in unconditioned attics ("But where else do you put them?")  They really can't imagine doing it differently because they've never seen anything different.  Maybe because power has historically been cheap, energy efficiency just isn't as much of a thing down here.
> 
> I was shocked when shopping for houses that most didn't have gutters.  To me that was the equivalent of not having windows or something, but gutters are a real-estate "upgrade" here.  My husband and I have been slowing upgrading.  Gutters were our summer project.  My realtor down here was from this area and was really surprised to hear that gutters are taken for granted on most homes in Virginia.  Gutters aren't exactly on topic, but it just stands out in my mind because of how shocked our realtor was by my perspective.  A lot of perspective is based on experience, and I had never experienced houses with no gutters, and a lot of Texans haven't experienced cold like that before and definitely not for that duration.
> 
> I have limited experience living in Texas, and other parts of the state perhaps do things differently from how they do in my county (it's considered South or South central).   At least here it's just a given that the air temperature may sink to freezing on occasion, but the ground just doesn't freeze.  When it does freeze, it's short-lived, and everything warms up the next day.  Attics don't freeze because of heat from the house.  That definitely wasn't the case this time around, and I think it's great to be prepared as it may well happen more, but I can see how the average individual really wasn't going to be prepared for what just happened.



I get that, and maybe it shouldn't be up to the homeowners, those that write and enforce the code should maybe have some foresight on these events too. I know we have a lot of items written in building codes to cover improbable events, never the less they are still there, and costs are incurred every year by builders to follow them.

I would be quite surprised if there aren't changes to the Texas building code out of this. There will be a lot of head scratching and rethinking on part of many agencies. As we say at work, "lessons cost money, the best ones cost lots".


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## stoveliker (Feb 23, 2021)

DuaeGuttae said:


> ... they really aren't obvious to people who don't have any other frame of reference.   ....
> They really can't imagine doing it differently because they've never seen anything different.



Having lived in different states, countries, continents, one can see that some places are less used to look at other places with an open mind than other places...

It is the willingness to learn, the willingness to accept that maybe others have it figured out in a better way that is in short supply in most of these situations.

And yes, then there is the cost aspect, where small government (not inspecting, not imposing code), implies that the cost of mitigatable risks is rolled onto the less-governed (or "more free") people - that, evidently, then complain when that cost comes knocking on the door...


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## SpaceBus (Feb 23, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I'm no expert in US electricity regulation, nor do I care to attempt to interpret the mess that are most US regulations, so I'll take your word for it. That being said there are 5 active interconnects between Texas and neighboring states, and as of this moment 4 are transmitting electricity, surely federal regulation applies to this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right about the Southeast, but it also applies to everywhere else in the US as well. OSHA and other regulatory bodies exist, but none of them actually enforce anything. I haven't lived in Canada, but in the US a lot of people will look the other way, especially if money is involved. I experienced this in Italy, the UK, Germany, and every other European country I've been to/lived in, so I can only assume Canada is the same way.


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## Brian26 (Feb 23, 2021)

So in Texas when prices hit like $9k a mwh that is passed on directly to rate payers?

Here in New England during high demand in summer prices will skyrocket as well from like $100 mwh to $1k. I have never heard of anyone paying that rate. Your price is the same year round.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 23, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> So in Texas when prices hit like $9k a mwh that is passed on directly to rate payers?
> 
> Here in New England during high demand in summer prices will skyrocket as well from like $100 mwh to $1k. I have never heard of anyone paying that rate. Your price is the same year round.


I think they are on a variable rate plan in Texas, which is to say the costs are pushed to the consumer. In New England we just pay high rates all the time regardless of energy spikes.


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## peakbagger (Feb 23, 2021)

That depends on what state in New England you live in

California, *Connecticut*, the District of Columbia, Delaware, Illinois, *Massachusetts,* Maryland, *Maine*, Michigan, Montana,* New Hampshire,* New Jersey, *New York*, Ohio, Pennsylvania, *Rhode Island,* and Texas were the only deregulated states in 2017 (the most recent list I found quickly). People in the other regulated states do not understand what the fuss is about as their states set the costs and there is no consumer competition.  Deregulation was a key part of the "Reagan revolution" but when California had the Enron assisted power debacle, many states pulled back from it.  So someone in Vermont and a lot of other states  doesnt have the option to buy from a  competitive supplier. They pay more but are isolated from extreme events.

The basis for deregulation is to split the power cost from the transmission cost. That doesnt work if the utility owns the power plants so the utilities had to sell their power plants to private entities. Most if not all states required utilities to offer a "standard offer" to residential customers to keep it simple. These standard offers are usually fixed power rates for either an entire year or sometimes a winter and summer period. The utility signs a contract for guaranteed fixed price power. The firms selling the power has to supply power at this price, if they do not there are contractual penalties but the devil is in the details. That fixed cost for power is a risk on the seller so they price in that risk . The ratepayers may object to these high rates for risk free power so someone in the chain will suggest "sharing that risk" between the parties. The firms running that standard offer are regulated utilities and they are guaranteed a profit so any risk they share ultimately gets handed to the ratepayer base.

So with deregulation all sorts of competitive suppliers will pop up to sell power for what they represent is less than the standard rate. Many offer teaser rates and fine print. To an uneducated consumer that fine print can be a big problem. In the case of the lowest cost supplier in Texas  their business model is act as broker between the consumer and the wholesale power market. They just charge a fee to act as broker so the consumer owns all risk with varying power prices.  The prices are usually lower and the consumer forgets about the risk as 95% of the time they are saving money. In this case the risk was quite large for what was a event that was probably in the .001% range. This willing acceptance of risk is now coming back to the person who took on the risk and they do not like it. No one forced them to sign the deal. So the political approach is raise public outrage, and then demand the evil companies eat the high prices while offering the same evil  companies some back room deal to get reimbursed with public funds.  Lawyers will also go for class action saying that the offers did not have adequate disclosures in their publicity of the risks.

The state of Maine has been doing a study of their competitive power market versus the standard offer contracts and they keep coming to the conclusion that the private competitive rate plans cost the consumers more in the long run. Consumers sign up for teaser rates but inevitably the rates go up. The biggest supplier has been caught and fined for several consumer violations but they are glad to pay the fines as their profit exceeds the cost of the fines.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 23, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> That depends on what state in New England you live in
> 
> California, *Connecticut*, the District of Columbia, Delaware, Illinois, *Massachusetts,* Maryland, *Maine*, Michigan, Montana,* New Hampshire,* New Jersey, *New York*, Ohio, Pennsylvania, *Rhode Island,* and Texas were the only deregulated states in 2017 (the most recent list I found quickly). People in the other regulated states do not understand what the fuss is about as their states set the costs and there is no consumer competition.  Deregulation was a key part of the "Reagan revolution" but when California had the Enron assisted power debacle, many states pulled back from it.  So someone in Vermont and a lot of other states  doesnt have the option to buy from a  competitive supplier. They pay more but are isolated from extreme events.
> 
> ...


The Maine system was a big shock having moved here from NC, which doesn't have the best reputation for their power companies either.


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## peakbagger (Feb 23, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> The Maine system was a big shock having moved here from NC, which doesn't have the best reputation for their power companies either.


If you are in eastern maine, its the backwaters of the power market.


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## jetsam (Feb 23, 2021)

DuaeGuttae said:


> The thing is they seem obvious to you because you're used to freezing temperatures for long durations, but they really aren't obvious to people who don't have any other frame of reference.  I moved to Texas a few years ago from "up North" (Virginia, which is still a southern state), and it's a whole different world down here.  People look at me funny when I express displeasure about having water heaters and HVAC in unconditioned attics ("But where else do you put them?")  They really can't imagine doing it differently because they've never seen anything different.  Maybe because power has historically been cheap, energy efficiency just isn't as much of a thing down here.
> 
> I was shocked when shopping for houses that most didn't have gutters.  To me that was the equivalent of not having windows or something, but gutters are a real-estate "upgrade" here.  My husband and I have been slowing upgrading.  Gutters were our summer project.  My realtor down here was from this area and was really surprised to hear that gutters are taken for granted on most homes in Virginia.  Gutters aren't exactly on topic, but it just stands out in my mind because of how shocked our realtor was by my perspective.  A lot of perspective is based on experience, and I had never experienced houses with no gutters, and a lot of Texans haven't experienced cold like that before and definitely not for that duration.
> 
> I have limited experience living in Texas, and other parts of the state perhaps do things differently from how they do in my county (it's considered South or South central).   At least here it's just a given that the air temperature may sink to freezing on occasion, but the ground just doesn't freeze.  When it does freeze, it's short-lived, and everything warms up the next day.  Attics don't freeze because of heat from the house.  That definitely wasn't the case this time around, and I think it's great to be prepared as it may well happen more, but I can see how the average individual really wasn't going to be prepared for what just happened.



I have lived in southern Georgia twice, and I've never seen a water heater in an attic... (HVAC, yes.)  Is it really common there?

Forget cold temperature,  what happens when the tank rusts out, or the expansion tank is insufficient? Do they install them on shower pans and run a drain line?

If you don't have it contained and drained, common sense says that you will eventually get a $10,000 repair and mold remediation bill from a $300 appliance just due to normal water heater life cycle issues.


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## jetsam (Feb 23, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> That depends on what state in New England you live in
> 
> California, *Connecticut*, the District of Columbia, Delaware, Illinois, *Massachusetts,* Maryland, *Maine*, Michigan, Montana,* New Hampshire,* New Jersey, *New York*, Ohio, Pennsylvania, *Rhode Island,* and Texas were the only deregulated states in 2017 (the most recent list I found quickly). People in the other regulated states do not understand what the fuss is about as their states set the costs and there is no consumer competition.  Deregulation was a key part of the "Reagan revolution" but when California had the Enron assisted power debacle, many states pulled back from it.  So someone in Vermont and a lot of other states  doesnt have the option to buy from a  competitive supplier. They pay more but are isolated from extreme events.
> 
> ...



Long Island is an area of New York. So in theory there's little in the way of regulation, but it's an island, and the local deregulated operator is also a complete monopoly... you cannot choose between power companies in any way, shape, or form.

Also, as is traditional for local enterprises, it is chummy with the highly corrupt local politicians, and as such charges astounding rates and still "loses" money every year.

If you're thinking that I am an embittered local exaggerating for dramatic effect... well,  here is a screenshot showing their understanding of what the purpose of their business is (from their 2020 SEC filing):






In English: "We take huge losses so that our highly dubious personal investments don't lose money, and use that money to buy politicians to prop up the utility business that we just looted, so the taxpayers can have rates double the national average AND pay for our thievery in their tax bills. Every time this generates outrage we will shout bankruptcy and sell out to a different LLC and probably not even have to rearrange our pencil drawers, let alone move offices.")


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## walhondingnashua (Feb 23, 2021)

Here we see just another example of the cost of climate change.  I live in the middle of natural gas world and have family members in the natural gas industry.  I have mentioned before that we are getting new schools built from a tax abatement on a very clean natural gas power plant.  So I hear plenty about how "Going Green" and how "The Tree Huggers" are going to kill the economy.  I am more than empathetic because I can see the worry on my in-laws faces now there is an administration that with a different perspective.  BUT...

the financial costs of natural disasters are skyrocketing .  All of the increased flooding in the south, increase in tornados, a close to 0% agricultural yield in South Dakota in 2019 because of flooding and now this unique event in Texas.   Insurance companies are big business too.  We are about to see a fight between 2 major economic and political players (fossil fuel vs insurance) the average American is going to be a pawn in the game.


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## ABMax24 (Feb 23, 2021)

walhondingnashua said:


> Here we see just another example of the cost of climate change.  I live in the middle of natural gas world and have family members in the natural gas industry.  I have mentioned before that we are getting new schools built from a tax abatement on a very clean natural gas power plant.  So I hear plenty about how "Going Green" and how "The Tree Huggers" are going to kill the economy.  I am more than empathetic because I can see the worry on my in-laws faces now there is an administration that with a different perspective.  BUT...



I work in the natural gas industry as well, and I've thought the same. Reality is we can't replace it yet, and there's a lot of talk in Canada about using natural gas to produce hydrogen, and storing the carbon underground in the form of CO2. I'm not too concerned about my job yet, events like what has happened it Texas prove this more than ever. The vast majority of electrical systems rely on fossil fuels for backup when the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow. Those fuels have to come from somewhere.

Maybe the US can subsidize it's way to 100% renewable energy, but at the rate the Federal Reserve is printing money the US will cause another financial crisis in the process.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 23, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> So in Texas when prices hit like $9k a mwh that is passed on directly to rate payers?
> 
> Here in New England during high demand in summer prices will skyrocket as well from like $100 mwh to $1k. I have never heard of anyone paying that rate. Your price is the same year round.



I think it's too broad of a brush just to refer to Texas as a monolith.  It's a huge state with lots of power companies.  With our particular power company (the only choice we have in our area), we pay a single base rate for every kilowatt hour all year, but in the hottest summer months there is an additional peak charge applied to any usage over 600 kWh.   It is not a variable cost based on the cost of the energy.  It's an additional amount (maybe around 2 cents) for each kilowatt hour.  This is obviously very different from the variable rate plans that are being discussed in the media right now.

We have a different company that supplies natural gas, and the rates are the opposite.  The peak applies in winter.

At this point I'm doubly glad we managed to have significant solar power installed last summer.  The power company hasn't raised rates in a good number of years.  I expect that to change.


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## DuaeGuttae (Feb 23, 2021)

jetsam said:


> I have lived in southern Georgia twice, and I've never seen a water heater in an attic... (HVAC, yes.)  Is it really common there?
> 
> Forget cold temperature,  what happens when the tank rusts out, or the expansion tank is insufficient? Do they install them on shower pans and run a drain line?
> 
> If you don't have it contained and drained, common sense says that you will eventually get a $10,000 repair and mold remediation bill from a $300 appliance just due to normal water heater life cycle issues.



Jetsam, that was my exact reaction to water heaters when I started house shopping in this area.  Yes, it's (shockingly) common, and yes, they do have drain pans and drain pipes that run to the outside of the house.  People need to be sure to inspect their water heaters (and HVAC drains and pans). We also have a special (more expensive) rider on our insurance policy about water damage.   Homeowner's insurance is definitely expensive down here.

I hope that these practices are less common nowadays than they were twenty and thirty years ago, but I really have no idea whether that is the case at all.


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## Texas123 (Feb 23, 2021)

Here is how crazy we were down here in Texas. I am back home after working for over a week at the hotel due to power and water outages at our house. That morning of the 14th when it was in the teens and half of the city of around 30,000 was out of power, I received a phone call. 

The man had no heat, no lights, no water, a ten month old son. He demanded a room at the promised "Facebook Rate." There was no Facebook Discount but we were allowing pets.  His wife who was the second caller, made it clear it was our fault for not letting them in during a power outage and not having a kitchenette to heat formula. Our hotel had about ten rooms left and we were the almost life and death refuge from the winter storm.

     It is somewhere between stupid and Child Protective Services level intervention to hear a dad threaten you because you won't hold a room for him until the manager confirms the half price discount. People like this probably stayed on the Titanic because they didn't want to sit with the third class riff-Raff. Oh, the pipes thawed out fine, as far as we can tell.


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## begreen (Feb 23, 2021)

The guy is a jerk. I give your hotel credit for sticking with regular prices. There was some serious price gouging reported at some hotels and motels.


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## jetsam (Feb 24, 2021)

begreen said:


> The guy is a jerk. I give your hotel credit for sticking with regular prices. There was some serious price gouging reported at some hotels and motels.



And power companies. 

Though I guess we're calling it "variable rate free market pricing" instead of "price gouging" in that case.


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## CaptSpiff (Feb 24, 2021)

jetsam said:


> Long Island is an area of New York. So in theory there's little in the way of regulation, but it's an island, and the local deregulated operator is also a complete monopoly... you cannot choose between power companies in any way, shape, or form.
> 
> Also, as is traditional for local enterprises, it is chummy with the highly corrupt local politicians, and as such charges astounding rates and still "loses" money every year.
> 
> ...


Wow Jetsam, you and I need to sit down over a coffee for a Long Island history lesson,... I'll buy.

But that's for another thread, now the matter at hand:
You responded to a well written post from PeakBagger, but his positioning of Ronald Reagan is off by about 20 years. The push to deregulate the US electricity sector was under the final years of the Clinton administration, and the lead flag carrier was Kenny Lay, CEO of Enron, who was a hugh backer of Bush the Junior. I cringed every time I saw GW walk down the air-stairs from the Enron Boeing 737 during the election campaign.

So the theory of deregulation, and the goal of saving consumers money in their electric rates, was that all the local Utilities needed to be forced to give up their ownership in generating/power stations. Thus allowing the Generators to independently compete against each other in an Energy Market Place, thereby allowing private Energy Marketers (ie middlemen) to purchase and resell this power to consumers at lower costs. The Marketers would sign up consumers promising lower prices, and sometimes higher prices because their electricity was originating from clean green sources (wind turbines and solar farms). The local Utilities would remain fully regulated and would be the cashiers/deliverers for the Marketers, but would be acting as a basic minimal cost pass-thru. Therefore consumers could feel safe because the Generators would send the electricity directly to the Consumers via the same poles & wires as before.

Naturally the govt needed a safety net, so they designated the local Utilities as the "provider of last resort" if the Consumer didn't want to participate in the "free" market. Most Utilities in NY State just buy power in the market and pass it along with minimal markup, but adjust it 2-4 times a year.

I don't know if the efforts has resulted in lower rates. I do know that when the Utilities were force to sell their power plants, they took the windfall, formed subsidiaries, and just bought power stations outside their service territory. So it turned into a giant churn of power plant ownership. The company you posted "PSEG POWER" is such a subsidiary. They bought power plants in Conn, and a bunch of other locations. They do not sell power to customers in PSEG-NJ or to PSEG-LI service territory.

Unfortunately for the folks in Texas (home of Enron), they were all in and drank the cool-aid of deregulation. When the Market got tight for available power the market price went thru the roof. The ones who's power was rationed (turned off) may be the lucky ones, if they had a whole house generator and could keep the heat on.

And just for example, Texas had a price cap of $9000 per Megawatthour (Mwh). Most states which deregulated have price caps in place also. I think NY ISO market price cap is $1000 per Mwh. But NYISO has market circuit breakers which allow them to "freeze market prices" during a crisis, like a Blackout. It's a dangerous financial place to play for saving 10-20 bucks a month on your electric bill.

PS: Long Island NY is not a deregulated market because LIPA is a quasi govt agency who owns the service territory. And everyone knows the Govt does not like to compete in a market. ;-)


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## SpaceBus (Feb 25, 2021)

I feel like the power generation industry is very unnecessarily convoluted and complicated.


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## sloeffle (Feb 25, 2021)

WSJ News Exclusive | Texas Electric Bills Were $28 Billion Higher Under Deregulation
					

Texas’s deregulated electricity market left millions in the dark last week. For the past 20 years, its consumers have paid more for their electricity than state residents who are served by traditional utilities, a WSJ investigation found.




					www.wsj.com


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## begreen (Feb 25, 2021)

sloeffle said:


> WSJ News Exclusive | Texas Electric Bills Were $28 Billion Higher Under Deregulation
> 
> 
> Texas’s deregulated electricity market left millions in the dark last week. For the past 20 years, its consumers have paid more for their electricity than state residents who are served by traditional utilities, a WSJ investigation found.
> ...


Texas likes things big, including con jobs.


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## UpStateNY (Feb 28, 2021)

Here in NY just south of Albany we get our electricity bills from Central Hudson (CH) now owned by a Canada firm.  Electric bills have 3 parts for residential houses.  Part 1 - Mandatory monthly flat fee of $19.50 a month.  This was $24 a month a few years ago.  
Part 2 is cost to deliver the electricity to your house.   Part 3 is cost of energy supply  to generate electricity.  In 2018 , Part 2 and Part 3 costs were close to even.  Now in Part 2 is signficantly higher that part 3.  I am looking at one recent bill where Part 2 cost of delivery is double the cost of Part 3 cost energy supply to generate the electricity.    Why CH do this you may ask?   Well the private solar farms  and wind farms can only compete to reduce the cost of Part 3 energy supply.   CH does not have to compete with other companies for Part 2 the cost to deliver the electricity.   So CH just made Part 3 competition part a smaller part of the pie.  

On the plus side CH total cost of about 15 cents per Kwh (part 2 and part 3)  has not changed much in the last 3 years.


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## Grizzerbear (Feb 28, 2021)

DuaeGuttae said:


> I think it's too broad of a brush just to refer to Texas as a monolith. It's a huge state with lots of power companies.



God bless texas. Great state. Worked their many times and loved it.


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## clancey (Mar 1, 2021)

I read every post and it all makes sense to me with some very good writing as well. So I say God Bless not only Texas like Grizzerbear wrote but God Bless the Whole U.S. as well because I feel we have some real problems coming in the future and you must remember I am a worry wort and that's why I am trying to hook up the worse looking gravity fed heater in the world--just to be warm. I need all the help that I can get from you very very smart people but do not know enough to ask too many questions right now. But God Bless Us All..


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 1, 2021)

Our power rates are reasonable. Dont know they manage that cuz they pay their employees even  maintenance  people the salary of a medical doctor.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 1, 2021)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Our power rates are reasonable. Dont know they manage that cuz they pay their employees even  maintenance  people the salary of a medical doctor.


Makes you consider that perhaps everyone is underpaid.


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## walhondingnashua (Mar 1, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Makes you consider that perhaps everyone is underpaid.


 Or maybe the wrong people are overpaid and the wrong people are underpaid.  One lesson from the pandemic... the people society depends on the most (essential works) do not get paid for the value of their work to society.  People are paid based on the amount of money they make for themselves or someone else.  Because a guy can throw a football really well (don't get me wrong, I am a huge sports fan) he makes millions makes but a man or woman that is responsible for the safety of our society and the enforcement of its laws starts out at $30,000 a year in my area is an issue.  I am a teacher so I am biased.


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## Brian26 (Mar 1, 2021)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Our power rates are reasonable. Dont know they manage that cuz they pay their employees even  maintenance  people the salary of a medical doctor.



My neighbor is a lineman for the Northeast Electric utility Eversource. He makes $52 an hour. During storm duty he does 16 hour shifts at double time. He said he cleared 200k with all the overtime and out of state storms last year. When he gets sent to Maine often he said he is on the clock the second he gets in the truck. He said they also are on the clock even sleeping in the hotel.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 1, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Makes you consider that perhaps everyone is underpaid.


Market forces set the value of your time and skill level but also are affected by things like unions and utilities which are monopolies.  Govt can try to force or mandate a wage but it dont end well.  If everyone is under paid then no one is underpaid.  Iv seen plenty of business owners make less  than their employees at times.  Forcing mom and pop shops into same wage scale as amazon dont make sense either.  Mexico muddies the water as well ,they also have a min wage ,its 50c hr.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 1, 2021)

walhondingnashua said:


> I am a teacher so I am biased.


My wife works with some teachers at her job at a local Dept store,. Apparently they have so much free time in my area they can work  2 full time jobs. Im sure its different in different areas.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 1, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> My neighbor is a lineman for the Northeast Electric utility Eversource. He makes $52 an hour. During storm duty he does 16 hour shifts at double time. He said he cleared 200k with all the overtime and out of state storms last year. When he gets sent to Maine often he said he is on the clock the second he gets in the truck. He said they also are on the clock even sleeping in the hotel.


I also know some linemen...they also used to get paid 24/7 when they went out on emergency assistance like that, but they said they lost this on the last contract due to it not being the "norm" longer...less and less employers still do that.
However, I would gladly pay these guys their hourly rate 24/7 to be willing to be out in the middle of the night during a nasty storm trying to get our power back on, (as would most I suspect) as compared to these "professional athletes" getting millions to chase a little ball around... 


walhondingnashua said:


> Because a guy can throw a football really well (don't get me wrong, I am a huge sports fan) he makes millions makes but a man or woman that is responsible for the safety of our society and the enforcement of its laws starts out at $30,000 a year in my area is an issue


The pay scale is backwards IMO...teachers (at least the ones willing to work) first responders, utility techs that are 24/7 on call, (and *lots* of other important jobs that are underappreciated) are the ones that should be making millions, not these little boys out there playing with their balls...


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## Grizzerbear (Mar 1, 2021)

Most utility workers....at least around here... have excellent pension plans/retirements and great health care. Around here if your lucky enough to know someone that will get you hired on at a utility you jump at the opportunity. 

As far as teachers.....again around here.....I feel they aren't underpaid.. 9 months a year with countless holidays, a dang good retirement. My kids are in a school district that has class 4 days a week and many others are the same in Missouri. My second daughter is 5 and a half and has struggled with learning to read to the extent that her teacher notified us she could be held back if she doesn't progress by the end of the year. They send homework home with the kids designed for the parents to teach and instruct them on lessons. Obviously I have no problem with helping my own child with things she struggles with but the methods they are using to teach are completely different from the days when I was in school....especially basic math.....which aren't accepted. Long story short....a few nights with my daughter on her "sight words", and the teacher said she was amazed at the improvement. No s**t, your welcome for doing your job for ya. It's more of a problem with how public schools are structured here to me. Theirs too many kids per classroom that if a kid struggles with something they are screwed.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 1, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Most utility workers....at least around here... have excellent pension plans/retirements and great health care. Around here if your lucky enough to know someone that will get you hired on at a utility you jump at the opportunity.
> 
> As far as teachers.....again around here.....I feel they aren't underpaid.. 9 months a year with countless holidays, a dang good retirement. My kids are in a school district that has class 4 days a week and many others are the same in Missouri. My second daughter is 5 and a half and has struggled with learning to read to the extent that her teacher notified us she could be held back if she doesn't progress by the end of the year. They send homework home with the kids designed for the parents to teach and instruct them on lessons. Obviously I have no problem with helping my own child with things she struggles with but the methods they are using to teach are completely different from the days when I was in school....especially basic math.....which aren't accepted. Long story short....a few nights with my daughter on her "sight words", and the teacher said she was amazed at the improvement. No s**t, your welcome for doing your job for ya. It's more of a problem with how public schools are structured here to me. Theirs too many kids per classroom that if a kid struggles with something they are screwed.


I would certainly say the teachers are underpaid if there are too many kids per student. Generally teachers work on those countless holidays and through a lot of the summer break as well. Most teachers have to spend their own money for classroom supplies. These are people who raise your children all day and also have to teach them something on top of that. Teachers don't have an easy job and are 100% under paid. 


When I say everyone is underpaid, I mean everyone in the working class. The top 20% of income earners are overpaid and hold 80% of all the wealth. Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos could have paid every single employee a $100k bonus in 2020 and still maintained 2019 profits, he is not among the underpaid.


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## Grizzerbear (Mar 1, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I would certainly say the teachers are underpaid if there are too many kids per student. Generally teachers work on those countless holidays and through a lot of the summer break as well. Most teachers have to spend their own money for classroom supplies. These are people who raise your children all day and also have to teach them something on top of that. Teachers don't have an easy job and are 100% under paid.
> 
> 
> When I say everyone is underpaid, I mean everyone in the working class. The top 20% of income earners are overpaid and hold 80% of all the wealth. Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos could have paid every single employee a $100k bonus in 2020 and still maintained 2019 profits, he is not among the underpaid.



We pay for all our child school supplies from crayons, glue, paper, colored pencils, pencils, erasers, you name it. We get monthly lists of supplies needed for our child. Maybe it's different in maine. I'm sure the teachers pay for their own supplies and maybe the activity/study papers but she ain't paying for our child's own personal supplies. Maybe the teachers in Maine are more generous. I guess I think a little differently but certainly can't be persuaded to believe my daughter's teacher is overpaid.To me too many tax dollars and federal funding are wasted. Too much money spent on sports and other after school activities that benefit a small majority of kids when they could be directed towards all of our kids getting a better education.  As far as Jeff Bezos goes schools are ran much the same way.....like a business where the superintendent, principals, and vice principals are overpaid and a school board full of folks that probably couldn't balance a checkbook let alone a put forth a smart school budget. The money is there. What I do believe is it cost too much for a person to have gone to school to be a teacher. That's really another part of the problem.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 1, 2021)

This topic really deserves its own thread. Too much misinformation and we are already off in the weeds.


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## Grizzerbear (Mar 1, 2021)

Perspective and misinformation are two different subjects.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 2, 2021)

Grizzerbear said:


> Perspective and misinformation are two different subjects.


Misinformation changes perspective, the subjects are intertwined. Perception is reality.


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## Grizzerbear (Mar 2, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Misinformation changes perspective, the subjects are intertwined. Perception is reality.



Actually perception is not reality.

Perception:








						Perception Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary
					

PERCEPTION meaning: 1 : the way you think about or understand someone or something often + of; 2 : the ability to understand or notice something easily




					www.learnersdictionary.com
				




And reality:








						Reality Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary
					

REALITY meaning: 1 : the true situation that exists the real situation; 2 : something that actually exists or happens a real event, occurrence, situation, etc.




					www.learnersdictionary.com
				




As you can see perception is defined as the way you think about or understand someone or something. Reality is something that actually exists.
Reality isn't influenced by the mind. 

So your perception and mine can be different. The world doesn't implode and the sun still rose this morning. It doesn't make you or me right. As far as misinformation I didn't know you were christened the all mighty with what is fact. Trying to tell me my daughter's teacher is underpaid while being over 1500 miles away and knowing nothing of her body of work. Listen to you lol.


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## stoveliker (Mar 2, 2021)

You (anyone on this thread, not someone in particular) do know that the reality in which people make actual decisions (e.g. voting) is purely a perception... Hence "perception is reality" - a mantra a lot of politicians adhere to but (...) that contains a lot of truth.

I.e. what you describe as reality is not really accessible to people - instead it is each individual's perception of that reality that rules the day, for those individuals. You base decisions on what you perceive to be real, how reality impacts you, in your reference frame.

In my reality, nothing would have happened (prosperity wise) if not for scientists - that created the knowledge of fluid dynamics to design stoves, that created the knowledge of chemistry to design the catalyst, that created the knowledge of materials science to design the cat washcoat and the steel of the stove, that created the knowledge of soil treatment for agriculture, that created the knowledge of e.g. rubber to have your manufacturing conveyor belt not tear at each loop, that created the knowledge of process management so the conveyor belt factory could be set up efficiently, that created the knowledge of grid stability to make sure - well, let's not go there on this thread...  .

In fact, all that is taught by teachers in schools was created by scientists. Some 300 years ago, and some more recently. And that even holds for the anti-bullying social (or moral) education our kids get from our good teachers.

So, I suggest that my perception of reality (which IS reality for me), is just one of many, and it's okay to know where each of us stands, but that arguing over that happens already enough in this world today...

After this sojourn somewhat off-topic, I'll not respond to this further to make sure I keep my word (less arguing about things)...

All be well and keep warm!


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## woodgeek (Mar 2, 2021)

Haha.... this thread is gonna go full-on 'Plato's Cave' in a few more posts.

oops.


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## Grizzerbear (Mar 2, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> You (anyone on this thread, not someone in particular) do know that the reality in which people make actual decisions (e.g. voting) is purely a perception... Hence "perception is reality" - a mantra a lot of politicians adhere to but (...) that contains a lot of truth.
> 
> I.e. what you describe as reality is not really accessible to people - instead it is each individual's perception of that reality that rules the day, for those individuals. You base decisions on what you perceive to be real, how reality impacts you, in your reference frame.
> 
> ...



 Well said.


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## semipro (Mar 4, 2021)

An interesting take on the resiliency of renewable versus fossil fuel sources.  An excerpt: 

_"Wind and solar’s intrinsic reliability advantage comes from their modularity. A 250MW wind farm is typically made up of more than 100 individual wind turbines. If one of those turbines has a mechanical problem, the wind farm loses less that 1 percent of its potential output. And the odds of that happening to more than one turbine at a time are small.

On the other hand, a 250MW fossil gas combined cycle turbine plant—the most common type of large gas plant—is typically made up of two combustion turbines feeding a steam turbine. A mechanical failure of one of the combustion turbines cuts the plant’s production capacity by half. If the steam turbine or the gas supply fails, which happened during the February storm, the whole plant goes down."_









						Make It Modular: Why Wind and Solar Are So Resilient
					

Wind and solar power were not the primary cause of the grid failure in Texas—the main culprit was fossil gas plants that went offline. In fact, wind and solar are intrinsically more reliable than fossil power, but not in the...




					www.nrdc.org


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## stoveliker (Mar 4, 2021)

semipro said:


> An interesting take on the resiliency of renewable versus fossil fuel sources.  An excerpt:
> 
> _"Wind and solar’s intrinsic reliability advantage comes from their modularity. A 250MW wind farm is typically made up of more than 100 individual wind turbines. If one of those turbines has a mechanical problem, the wind farm loses less that 1 percent of its potential output. And the odds of that happening to more than one turbine at a time are small.
> 
> ...



Yes. It's a pity that the fluctuations (reliability) of the "fuel source" are not on a length scale smaller than a whole wind or solar park to even out weather fluctuations too...


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## semipro (Mar 4, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> ...that created the knowledge of grid stability to make sure - well, let's not go there on this thread...  .


Whoops, I think I just did with my last post.


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## semipro (Mar 4, 2021)

Until we develop affordable electrical storage systems it seems to me that future power grids should rely upon non fossil sources for base loads (solar, wind, tidal, hydro, nuclear, etc.) and that natural gas-fueled "peaker" plants will be used primarily for leveling the supply during base supply disruption.


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