# Tarm BLT control box



## dougcarlo (Feb 10, 2010)

Can someone tell me what exactly this box does.  I know basically what it does.  Allows you to switch from oil to wood boiler, turns on circ. pumps, and open/close zone valves.  What I want to do is make one, does anyone have the schematics for this?  I have a non-pressurized tank with the associated coils that I am going to plumb this summer.  Thanks Doug


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## EricV (Feb 10, 2010)

What does that control cost?


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 11, 2010)

From the piping diagram at Bioheat http://www.woodboilers.com/userfiles/file/Solo Innova Plumbing(1).pdf it appears that the BLT takes input from a L6008A aquastat on the storage tank, the TT from the fossil boiler, and uses those signals to turn on or off a zone valve and a circ pump.  This could all be accomplished with a few DPDT relays that only cost a few dollars each...

It also states: "The control includes an on/off switch and a threeposition switch that includes wood only operation, back up only operation, or wood with automatic back up operation."  This means you also need an on/off switch and a three position switch...

It then says:  "Integral diagnostic indicator lights simplify trouble shooting."  I would guess this means there are lights to show what is on or off so you can tell what is supposed to be happening.

I would suggest running all of it with 24vac.  The DPDT relays are double throw so that means controlling a load (ie zone valve or circ) and have a light indicator is no problem.  

Sounds like a simple and inexpensive thing to make...  If I had a half hour to spare, I could probably figure out the logic of the wiring and draw it out for you.  Maybe Nofo will jump in and do it.  (he'd only need 15 mins...)


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## dougcarlo (Feb 11, 2010)

The unit sells for $400.  Thanks Doug


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 11, 2010)

Doug - If you draw up a diagram of your system, we could probably devise a way to control it with aquastats and inexpensive relays.  The BLT appears to be specifically designed for the piping schemes Bioheat draws up.  There are other ways to do things though.  Let us see what you have for a system (or what you propose for a system) and I am sure we can come up with something that will cost less than $400...


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## Nofossil (Feb 11, 2010)

I can help come up with a way to control your system that will cost a lot more than $400 if that's the goal ;-)


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## dogwood (Feb 11, 2010)

If you do come up with a schematic. I'd appreciate if you would post the diagram. I am trying to come up with the same thing myself to substitute for the BLT. In my inexperience, I am looking at Honeywell Aquatrol Contol Panel AQ2504B2, http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/69-1982.pdf to run all my wiring through, as it has both 115v and 24v output terminals. I have the L6008A SPST aquastat for the pressurized storage tank, which will be heated by my Solo Innova. I am trying to work it just like Woodnotoil describes above. In my case, for the aquastat to be part of a circuit to turn or off a Grundfos circ pump, a two position 24v Honeywell motorized ball valve, and the forced hot air furnace fan. And if the thermostat is calling for heat and there is no 150+ degree water available from either the boiler, or storage, to switch on the whole forced hot air furnace. I don't know if the wiring can all be done within that Aquatrol panel or if I need to add something additional to be the equivalent to the BLT. Anybody know?

Mike


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## webie (Feb 11, 2010)

I just built a relay set up for my tarm with storage that uses a single SR501 taco relay and a pair of RIBU1C relays . What I have it doing is my system will run off the tarm till its depleted then te tarm pump shuts down the grundfos alha zone pump runs till my storage is depleted , when my agua stat in the top of my storage hits its low limit it then cuts the neutral wire to the taco relay when The RIB sees a loss of power it then does a thermostat connect to my gas boiler provided that 2 conditions are met  ! the master gas thermostat has to be calling for heat and a zone thermostat has to call for heat . Total cost off of EBAY was lss than 50 bucks and 2 nights of lost sleep . The beauty is if it breaks I built I can fix it .


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## dogwood (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks Webie. That's just what I'm trying to do. I looked at the RIBUIC relays on Ebay. They looked like they would do the trick as a SPDT relay. If you wouldn't mind a dumb question, do you screw the threaded fitting on that relay into something else like a junction box? I notice other relays have prongs on them. Do you know what the pronged fittings are supposed to connect to? Do you connect wires directly to them or do they fit into a socket with screw on connectors for the wires? If the wires connect to the prongs I dont see what would hold the whole relay in place?

Pictures below of each type. One on the left is an RIBUIC. Couldn't figure how to make both pictures the same size.

Mike


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 12, 2010)

I had a lot of success with DPDT relays like this one.  It can go into a socket like this one.  The nice thing about the DPDT relay is that you can also put a simple indicator light on the other side of the relay.  These relays are really just an on/off switch that is thrown by the charging of the coil.  Here is a picture of what the terminals do.


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## dogwood (Feb 12, 2010)

WoodNotOil or anyone else, here's a followup dumb question. Are the sockets your link showed supposed to fit in some type of control box that would contain various switches and relays or do you just screw the individual socket to the wall or someplace else and run wires to it as needed. Pardon my ignorance, but I have to learn this somehow. Judging from my picture and yours there is not a universal configuration for the way the prongs are arranged. I'm guessing you would usually need to purchase matched sets. I've seen references to "plug and play" components like these, but have no idea what they are either. Thanks for your help.

Mike


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## webie (Feb 12, 2010)

dogwood said:
			
		

> Thanks Webie. That's just what I'm trying to do. I looked at the RIBUIC relays on Ebay. They looked like they would do the trick as a SPDT relay. If you wouldn't mind a dumb question, do you screw the threaded fitting on that relay into something else like a junction box? I notice other relays have prongs on them. Do you know what the pronged fittings are supposed to connect to? Do you connect wires directly to them or do they fit into a socket with screw on connectors for the wires? If the wires connect to the prongs I dont see what would hold the whole relay in place?
> 
> Pictures below of each type. One on the left is an RIBUIC. Couldn't figure how to make both pictures the same size.
> 
> Mike



Yes the threaded fitting fits an electrical junction box , in my case I just attached them to my taco relay .


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## RobC (Feb 12, 2010)

RIB relays aren't the cheapest but they are self contained,  can be hard wired any-place.
Rob


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 12, 2010)

dogwood said:
			
		

> WoodNotOil or anyone else, here's a followup dumb question. Are the sockets your link showed supposed to fit in some type of control box that would contain various switches and relays or do you just screw the individual socket to the wall or someplace else and run wires to it as needed. Pardon my ignorance, but I have to learn this somehow. Judging from my picture and yours there is not a universal configuration for the way the prongs are arranged. I'm guessing you would usually need to purchase matched sets. I've seen references to "plug and play" components like these, but have no idea what they are either. Thanks for your help.
> 
> Mike



The sockets are specific to the brand and type of relay, so they are not universal.  You can mount the socket anywhere you need to and just screw the wires in.  For $14 for the relay and socket you can add some logic to your controls for not much money.  If you are just looking to control the oil not coming on all you need to do is have an aquastat or pump trigger the coil to interupt the TT connection to the oil boiler.  If you have storage, you would probably need an aquastat on that to be able to tell the relay when the tank is hot or not.

Once again.  We could be more specific if you could give us a diagram of your system...


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## dogwood (Feb 12, 2010)

Thank you Webie, RobC, and WoodNotOil. That was just the information I needed. WoodNotOil, I will be working on my wiring schematic today and will post it for comments here or as a new post as soon as it is done (hopefully today). Thanks for offering to look at it. I do have the L6008A SPST aquastat for the pressurized storage tank. BioHeat sent it along with the package of parts for the Solo Innova. 

Mike


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 12, 2010)

Dogwood

It sounds like all you need to do is put the OB Aquastat (not sure what you interupt exactly) through a relay and have the coil charged by the aquastat on the tank and by the aquastat on the Tarm (or the pump itself) to interupt the aquastat and not allow the OB to run if the wood and/or the tank is up to temp.  If the vac is different (ie 24 vs 110), then just use two relays so that the signal is interupted if either one has a charged coil.


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## dogwood (Feb 13, 2010)

Webie, I am going to replicate the wiring setup you descibed. It meets my needs exactly. You mentioned using a pair of RIBU1C relays in it. You mentioned the first one does a thermostat connect to your boiler. Where do you have the second one situated, and what is it's function in your setup? Nice work.

Mike


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## webie (Feb 13, 2010)

dogwood said:
			
		

> If you do come up with a schematic. I'd appreciate if you would post the diagram. I am trying to come up with the same thing myself to substitute for the BLT. In my inexperience, I am looking at Honeywell Aquatrol Contol Panel AQ2504B2, http://www.alpinehomeair.com/related/69-1982.pdf to run all my wiring through, as it has both 115v and 24v output terminals. I have the L6008A SPST aquastat for the pressurized storage tank, which will be heated by my Solo Innova. I am trying to work it just like Woodnotoil describes above. In my case, for the aquastat to be part of a circuit to turn or off a Grundfos circ pump, a two position 24v Honeywell motorized ball valve, and the forced hot air furnace fan. And if the thermostat is calling for heat and there is no 150+ degree water available from either the boiler, or storage, to switch on the whole forced hot air furnace. I don't know if the wiring can all be done within that Aquatrol panel or if I need to add something additional to be the equivalent to the BLT. Anybody know?
> 
> Mike


 OK I am going to try and guess here a little on setting this up as I am not familiar with your set up .  I think from what I have read is you have a solo innova  + storage  and a hot air furnace  .I am thinking right now that your solo innova has similar logic to my solo and has an aqua stat to start things off with to turn on your pump that cycles the water from boiler to storage and back , then you have a second pump that is wired to your L6008A that when its hot enough will run . I am also thing that your zone valve is about your only logic and has dry contacts which when closed by a thermostat opens the zone valve and then turns on your Grundfos circ and sends water thru your HX in your furnace and your furnace fan is set to run all the time . Am I correct on all this so far or am I mistaken .
 My set up with relays simply does this the first relay is to turn off my zone pump when my primary boiler pump is running , I needed this as my house was set up for low 160 heat and if I left the zone circ kick on and off when the boiler was running I got alot of fluctuation in my house , this takes care of it pretty good as my water is split with some going to heat storage along with some circulating in my zones The second relay is controlled by my storage aqua stat  . If my storage is above 120 it has the second relay basically does a connect to an erie zone valve shutting off my storage and connects the the TT wires to my gas boiler allowing it to be operational.
 I have it wired a little more complicated then this but that's about it in a nutshell  , I wired in a gang box to the taco controller with several light switches that allow me to override the zone circ cut off along with the gas boiler if I wish . 
 Your system if I am right probably will be very easy to do but I need to know if my information is correct.
  Webie


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## RobC (Feb 13, 2010)

I'm using a RIB wired to the terminal that shuts off fan for Tarm blower (#11 I think). So when the Tarm shuts down / fire out blower shuts off / it interrupts power to Tarm's supply return piping circulator. Don't know if that's in your logic.
Didn't get this in mornings post RIB's have a built in light, too.
Rob


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 13, 2010)

webie said:
			
		

> If my storage is above 120 it has the second relay basically does a connect to an erie zone valve shutting off my storage and connects the the TT wires to my gas boiler allowing it to be operational.



So is it the thermostat connection that needs to be interupted in the fossil unit aquastat to keep it from coming on?  I know that is probably the case with a forced air furnace, but does that apply to an oil boiler aquastat as well?


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## dogwood (Feb 13, 2010)

I thought I would have a diagram to post by tonight after working out all the wiring. However after consulting a couple times with BioHeat, I found their PT3 schematic, http://www.woodboilers.com/uploads/public/PressureTank(PT3).pdf, has an unnecessary zone valve, ZVI, and the aquastat pictured immediately after the boiler is eliminated. (Please copy and paste the whole link above into the address bar, the last three letters didn't highlight. Tried to attach it as a picture but it was too big). These changes messed me up. I will eliminate the ZV1 to make the wiring simpler. 

I only have two zones. One for the W/A heat exchanger in the plenum above a propane-fired forced hot air furnace, the other for the flat plate heat exchanger servicing the the DHW. I have the L6008A SPST aquastat for my 1000 gallon pressurized storage tank. I have the L4008B overheat aquastat, set to 200 degrees. It is to be connected to the circ pump servicing the w/a hx. I also have the Termovar Loading Unit pictured in the diagram. It is turned by the Solo Innova when it is firing. 

When the house thermostat calls for heat it needs to turn on the circ pump in the first zone to draw hot water from the Solo Innova if it is firing. The thermostat needs to turn on the furnace fan below the w/a hx at the same time. If the Solo Innova is not firing, then the circ pump needs to draw instead from the 1000 gallon pressurized storage when above 150 degrees. If storage is below 150 degrees, then the whole furnace, not just the furnace fan, needs to be turned on by the thermosrat with the circ pump left off. 

The DHW located on the second zone is simpler. When the aquastat for DHW is calling for heat, the circ pump for the flat plate's boiler supply side needs to be turned on to draw from the Solo Innova if firing. If not firing, then the circ needs to draw from the pressurized storage if over 150 degrees. If storage is below 150 degrees, then for the circ pump to be off. A second recirc pump which circulates water through the other side of the flat plate from and back into the DHW tank will need to be turned on and off at the same time. The propane-fired DHW tank can turn itself on, like it does now, if the flat plate has no heat available from the boiler or storage to bring it up to temp.

The wiring should be straight-forward you would think, but I've about had it today. With the aquastat next to the boiler eliminated, I can't figure how the forced hot air furnace would know to turn itself on  if the boiler is firing in the circumstance the storage tank not up to temp. Maybe getting a read from the Tarms's blower as RobC suggests would get it. Tomorrow is another day. Thought I could maybe get this done with a couple RIBs and maybe a couple Taco SR501's, or one Taco 503 relay box.  I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to wire this. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate your help and suggestions.

Mike


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## webie (Feb 13, 2010)

Now mind you here  I havent looked at the diagram yet just from your explanation of your system .
 I think this is what I would try and do if possible . First leave your solo out of the picture , this will be hard to do but for get it  for a while  its only there to heat your storage and that is all set up for it to work 
 What you want is very easy if aquastat in storage is 150 plus you want your burner to NOT work in your regular furnace .
 I think you can probably do this for about 10 bucks and change with just a single RIB 
 Have the RIB coil energized by your aquastat and wire it to control your power to your burner, So in other words if the RIB is energized it has your burner (oil or gas ) disconnected when your aquastat cools it disconnects your zone pump for your HX and then reconnects your burner via a RIB.
 Now I will look at the diagram .


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## webie (Feb 13, 2010)

I for what ever reason cant get into that document . Some of what you want to control and what is all possible is dependant on your burner control for your furnace .


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## dogwood (Feb 13, 2010)

Webie, if you copy the whole link below and paste it into your address bar to send, the PT3 schematic will open right up. Be sure you copy the ".pdf" at the end of the link along with the rest of the purple letters. Thanks for your time.

http://www.woodboilers.com/uploads/public/PressureTank(PT3).pdf


What you said above makes perfect sense. But what would signal the furnace not to fire if the thermostat was calling for heat, storage was below 150, the Solo Innova was firing, and the zone circ was pumping heat to the W/A hx directly from the Solo Innova through the bypass loop, before the storage was back up to 150 degrees. That's what I can't figure out how to wire, since BioHeat said to eliminate the aquastat that would have provided that signal to the furnace, presumably through another RIB I could have wired in the same way you describe the storage aquastat and RIB providing that signal. Am I making any sense?

The eliminated aquastat is labelled "A" in the PT3 schematic. The eliminated zone valve is labelled ZV1. Thanks for your, or anyone elses help.

Mike


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## webie (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok , Diagram just about what I thought for your system , Still need to know what kind of controls your hot air furnace has for operation  in order to set up relay or relays , Its possible you may have to get like a Taco relay with TT input to control your furnace but without seeing or knowing furnace controls its hard to say .  Its totally possible to to just use a relay from a seperate thermostat to your zone valve that does a jump wire to your hot air furnace blower turning it on and we just leave your gas furnace operate as it always has on its own thermo that you can set a few degrees cooler  if you want . There are numerous ways to achieve what you want , none should be really expensive .


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## dogwood (Feb 13, 2010)

I was thinking, as you say, about putting in a second thermostat and making the current furnace's simple thermostat a "slave" to the new one. I was planning to use the current thermostat's  "fan only" setting" to just blow air through the W/A hx, and its' "Auto" setting to turn the whole furnace on when there was no heat in storage and the Solo Innova was not firing. Are those the controls you are asking about? It's a very basic thermostat.

If the Solo Innova is firing and providing hot water directly to the W/A hx through the storage bypass loop, and storage is below 150 degrees, how and from where should the thermostat be signalled to turn on the "fan only" function?  I am going to wire the signal from storage from the aquastat and RIB, exactly as you say, to turn off the "Auto" switch on the current thermostat if storage is up to temp. That solves that part of the wiring. 

I am thinking now maybe that I will have to add back that eliminated aquastat "A", or figure how to signal directly from the wiring panel on the side of the Solo Innova.

Mike


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## webie (Feb 13, 2010)

Ok differences now in the equation . If you do use a seperate thermostat then you will need a controller that acepts TT input for actuating relay controls . A taco SR501 single zone control should suffice  run a new TT to the TT connects in the taco relay this will provide your tripping for your relay to   have your zone valve open that allows water to your HX provided your storage is at 150 degrees. Let your aquastat  for your storage tank make or break the TT to the controller , the taco controller has an extra relay in it that you can use to do a connect for your furnace fan via some jump wires to the second  relay in the SR501 via some jump wires the same that are used on your fan only . I understand what you are talking about if your storage is under 150 what will tell your fan to run if there is a call for heat   . This will be simple to satisfy a  heat rise in your storage first before you are capable of auto operation. If this is a problem down the road it can be addressed later but I doubt it will be . Otherwise you can use a RIB that when your boiler pump is running it does a connect to those TT wires in your aquastat to make them connected  even though your aquastat would not be satisfied .  
 you can look up the Taco relay on there sight and be able to look at how to wire it . The one I am useing I grabbed off of ebay for 30 bucks. If you want you can PM me and we can talk by phone if that would help .
 Webie


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## dogwood (Feb 13, 2010)

Thanks Webie. I've been looking at the electrical connector panel at the side of the Solo Innova that Rob C is utilizing. It looks as if I can tap into the boiler's relay powered fan or pump circuit like he does to turn on the circuit for the furnace fan when the house thermostat is calling for heat. This circuit is always on when the boiler is putting out heat and closes when it is not. Maybe I can find a new house thermostat that can perform all the desired functions and replace, not have to slave, the old simple one currently in use. Thanks again for all your ideas. They have been quite helpful. Medman, in a previous post did all this it with one thermostat somehow. I'd like to keep it simple with a minimum of programming. I'll be sketching out the circuits this afternoon. Thanks again to everyone replying to the questions.

By the way, this is vague, but somebody posted some beautifully drawn wiring schematics a few months ago. I'd like to them use as a format, but I can't seem to find the post. Anyone happen to remember this post and could provide a link? 

Mike


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## WoodNotOil (Feb 13, 2010)

My fathers OWB is hooked up to his forced air furnace and all they did to keep the furnace from coming on was to put a second thermostat in the house that triggers the blower only.  The original thermostat is just kept lower enough than the new one so that the burner won't kick on unless there is no heat the OWB.  I think it controls the blower and the pump for the zone that feeds the plenum hx.  Just thought I would throw that out as another option...


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## dogwood (Feb 13, 2010)

Thats a good thought WoodNotOil. I'll explore that option as well as I draw this schematic out. Thanks.

Mike


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## dogwood (Feb 14, 2010)

Webie or anyone else who can read a relay schematic, I figured and sketched out my wiring diagram thanks to you and others help these past two days. What remains is to figure out the wiring schematic of the RIBU1C relay to see if it will do what I need it to. I can wire a house, but these wiring schematics elude me. Attached is a picture of the RIBU1C schematic from http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1C.pdf. It's clearer if you hit the link.

Is this SPDT relay able to take a 24v input and switch to one 120v circuit when the 24v input is open, and to another 120v circuit when the 24v input is closed. If so, could you explain the wiring diagram, which wire goes where, and which side of the diagram is which. If not, what exactly does it do? I am hoping to use one branch (pole) to turn on the furnace fan and a circ pump, or the other branch (pole) to turn on the whole furnace. One or the other, mutually exclusive. Thanks.

Mike


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## webie (Feb 15, 2010)

Sorry dogwood I missed this last posting . The RIB coil can be actuated either by 110v or 24 v either one  . On the other end of the relay you have the option of a Normally open switch NO or a Normally Closed NC  so lets say for instance you could use the power input from your circ 110v to make the fan switch connect on your furnace 24v .


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## dogwood (Feb 15, 2010)

Thanks so much Webie. That is just what I needed to hear. I will order some RIBU1C's and figure out which wire goes where. I am going to apply one just as you described.  One step closer to the finish line. 

Mike


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## Gooserider (Feb 16, 2010)

looked at the pic you provided, didn't go to the link...  Can't quite make out the color codes, but the schematic was pretty straightforward...

On the left, the coil side had a choice - you can have EITHER 110VAC OR 10-30V AC or DC, (but NOT both!)  the 110V hot connects to the top wire, or the 10-30V hot connects to the middle wire, with the Neutral going to the bottom wire - cap off which ever coil wire you aren't using.  

On the right are the switched contacts - The center wire is common - presumably this is where your thermostat signal would go.

The N/C (Normally Closed) contact is on the top of the diagram, this is the connection that will be made when the signal voltage is OFF

The N/O (Normally Open) contact is on the bottom of the diagram, this is the connection that will be made when the signal voltage is ON

Hopefully this will help clear up how to wire the thing...  If you are still having trouble figuring it out, there is a link to a pretty decent "Relays 101" primer in the "tidbits" sticky.

Gooserider


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## DaveBP (Feb 16, 2010)

Here's a better schematic of the new version of RIB relays:

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU2C.pdf


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## dogwood (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation Gooserider, and you too for the link Dave.  This wiring schematic business is coming together. It's been a learning experience.

Mike


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