# Difficulty getting insurance



## Trickle (Feb 21, 2013)

Hey all,

I am having some problems finding an insurance company that will cover me and wondering if anyone has ideas.

I am in the process of purchasing a home with a wood stove as the primary and only heat source. The home is in a protection class 10 fire district because the nearest responding fire house is in the next town over 5 miles away. The combination of being a class 10 and having a wood stove as the only heat source has so far caused 5 insurance companies to say thanks, but no thanks and unable to provide coverage.

I'd love to buy the home, but I'm not going to buy it if I can't insure it.

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions?

Thanks,
Trickle


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## kevinmerchant (Feb 21, 2013)

Can you ask the current owners who they are using. I would suspect they would be motivated to assist you considering it would mean the sale of their house.


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## schlot (Feb 21, 2013)

Try giving the state a call. Maybe they can shed some light on some choices?

http://insurance.mo.gov/


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## Ashful (Feb 21, 2013)

State Farm hardly even seemed interested that I had a wood stove.  When I installed the second, and contacted the agent to let them know, their answer was simply, "okay, no problem."

Maybe try State Farm?


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## gseith (Feb 22, 2013)

Another for state farm.
They came to inspect it was installed to code and that was it.


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## ArsenalDon (Feb 22, 2013)

Trickle said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am having some problems finding an insurance company that will cover me and wondering if anyone has ideas.
> 
> ...


Granger....check with your broker...that is the best bet bar none


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## simple.serf (Feb 22, 2013)

I ran into this with a house that we were looking at. They wouldn't insure it because the main heat source was a coal stove. Simple solution was to install a small electric furnace in the basement.


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## Todd 2 (Feb 22, 2013)

simple.serf said:


> I ran into this with a house that we were looking at. They wouldn't insure it because the main heat source was a coal stove. Simple solution was to install a small electric furnace in the basement.


This is true, I done HCAC work for 20+ yrs and I have installed the simplest cheapest heat system for people because the insurance companies would not go for a wood stove as only heat source. Could be a price bargaining tool.


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## jeff_t (Feb 22, 2013)

Wow, that ISO rating sucks. Five miles isn't that far. There are a lot of other factors involved, including equipment, water supply, and staffing.

No problem from State Farm here, either. Not sure about the only heat source issue, though.


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## Foragefarmer (Feb 22, 2013)

I agree with Todd 2. The house has a big strike against it since it doesn't have another source of heat. It is basically uninsurable, as a result a bank won't give you a mortgage for the house. That liability becomes an opportunity to bargain the sales price down even further. Find out what it would cost to put in electric baseboard. Expect to have to install upgraded service and triple that cost when asking for a reduction since you would be having the work done.

You can try calling a multi-line broker. Someone who doesn't sell just one companies insurance, but wood heat and no firehouse nearby is a big mountain to climb.


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## soupy1957 (Feb 22, 2013)

IF you have the financial flexibility to choose a different home that you love, that is not in a "Class 10" Zoning, why not just explore that a bit more, before committing yourselves.  

 -soupy1957


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## jharkin (Feb 22, 2013)

I agree with others here that the problem is probably not the wood stove per say, but the lack of another, primary heat system. One that is automatic.


The insurance is not only worried about fire. They are worried you go on a winter vacation and all the pipes freeze and burst because nobody is home to work the stoves. Something as simple to install  as cheap electric baseboard would probably satisfy this requirement


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## Coog (Feb 22, 2013)

simple.serf said:


> I ran into this with a house that we were looking at. They wouldn't insure it because the main heat source was a coal stove. Simple solution was to install a small electric furnace in the basement.



I second this thought and prefer the safety of a redundant system.


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## BobUrban (Feb 22, 2013)

x10 on using this to negotiate price point.  If you cannot insure it - no one can.  The OG's may be somehow grandfathered into a policy but even that is not guranteed if their IC knows the situation.  Get high bids on a secondary conventional heat source and use this to knock down the purchase price and then add a lower cost base board heat or equivelant once you are the owner.


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## ddahlgren (Feb 22, 2013)

So some suggest lie cheat and steal from the seller.. sad..It is tough enough getting beaten up selling a house for a fair price but the general attitude of cheat the seller is just so sad..If ever there was a place filled with straight shooters I would have though it was here, maybe not..


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## schlot (Feb 22, 2013)

It's valid to have this as a negotiating item. To get insurance some improvements may have to be made, but it's not cool on the bait and switch stuff.


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## saladdin (Feb 22, 2013)

ddahlgren said:


> So some suggest lie cheat and steal from the seller.. sad..It is tough enough getting beaten up selling a house for a fair price but the general attitude of cheat the seller is just so sad..If ever there was a place filled with straight shooters I would have though it was here, maybe not..


 
The price isn't fair if it's not priced to account for being uninsurable. How do you get cheating out of that? If anything, the seller may be witholding info from the buyer.

So the seller should price it as if it has primary heating even though it doesn't?

You clearly have taken a beaten in a sell or you wouldn't be saying such illogical things.


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## KaptJaq (Feb 22, 2013)

ddahlgren said:


> So some suggest lie cheat and steal from the seller..


 
I didn't hear the buyer lie, cheat, or steal from the seller.  The house is going to cost the buyer to upgrade the heating system.  Buyer thought the house was worth a certain amount.  To get a mortgage and insure the house he has to put time and money into the house.   This is a valid negotiating point.  If the seller disagrees he finds another buyer and the buyer finds another house.

KaptJaq


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## jharkin (Feb 22, 2013)

I also dont see where its even been remotely hinted this is cheating the seller.  If the offer price of the house reflects a discount to cover the cost of installing mechanical systems that will be required to insure and mortgage it, fine. If not its completely normal for the buyer to negotiate those costs into the sale terms.  Happens all the time in all kind of sales transactions.

Just like buying a house with a leaky roof.  You would take the inspection report and negotiate with the seller to replace it or deduct the cost of replacement from the price.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 22, 2013)

Let's keep it to the question folks. This ain't realestatenegotiating.com. He needs heat source options since, as far as I know, no insurance company will insure a house without a backup heat source. The freezing angle is the reason.

The fire station issue is a real one too. I know. Allstate tried to raise my rates a grand a year after they got a new service to assess distance to a fire house. Neither us or the fire station had moved in the 28 years we have been here. But the OP can't fix that issue.


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## saladdin (Feb 22, 2013)

I wonder if a pellet stove plus a wood stove would work.


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## ArsenalDon (Feb 22, 2013)

The secondary heat source is going to be a big part of it....if one heat source does fails, how will you stop the pipes from bursting...but the biggest hurdle is being located in a class10fire zone...that is where Granger comes in, they specialize in rural insurance


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## ddahlgren (Feb 22, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I also dont see where its even been remotely hinted this is cheating the seller. If the offer price of the house reflects a discount to cover the cost of installing mechanical systems that will be required to insure and mortgage it, fine. If not its completely normal for the buyer to negotiate those costs into the sale terms. Happens all the time in all kind of sales transactions.
> 
> Just like buying a house with a leaky roof. You would take the inspection report and negotiate with the seller to replace it or deduct the cost of replacement from the price.


 
I get it from here..
"Get high bids on a secondary conventional heat source and use this to knock down the purchase price and then add a lower cost base board heat or equivelant once you are the owner."


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## ddahlgren (Feb 22, 2013)

In the town I live in I doubt if you could get a Certificate of Occupancy  without permanent heat. 5 miles away is 8 minutes at 40 mph. You can live in a large city and have the fire dept 1 mile away and have them take longer than that to get to you.. It seems like the fire department is how much they will charge you but without heat in their eyes it ceases to be a house they are insuring a barn or shed at best. If you have water in the house then the insurance company is liable for all the burst pipes etc if you run out of wood or are not here to keep the stove going. In the end you make an offer if the sellers ask why tell them and move on if you can not afford the house at their bottom line price. If you have automatic heating in the places that have water like kitchen and bathroom then you have central heat. I doubt if it is requirement to heat bedrooms.


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## ArsenalDon (Feb 22, 2013)

ddahlgren said:


> So some suggest lie cheat and steal from the seller.. sad..It is tough enough getting beaten up selling a house for a fair price but the general attitude of cheat the seller is just so sad..If ever there was a place filled with straight shooters I would have though it was here, maybe not..


It is good business practice (in the case of Vet loans a requirement) to get inspections on bureal estate purchases. These inspections many times reveal items that need to be fixed. A home inspector (I guarantee it) will note that there is only one heating source. Not only will an insurance company many times not insure the home with one heat source, most lenders will not fund the loan on a home with only one heat source (remember that you do not own the home, the bank does until you make the final payment).  So, after inspections someone has to fix the things that need fixing.....why would the buyer buy a "broken" home?
   Would you as a buyer of a used car for $10,000, take it into the mechanic for an inspection, he tells you that it needs a new engine at a cost of $2,000.....and you not go back to the seller and say I will give you $8,000 because the engine will cost $2,000?! How is this lying, cheating and stealing?

The home seller is not forced to sell! The buyer is not forced to buy...thus why we call it "Free Enterprise"


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## ArsenalDon (Feb 22, 2013)

Trickle said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am having some problems finding an insurance company that will cover me and wondering if anyone has ideas.
> 
> ...


Oh, I forgot to mention...when we were looking at homes to buy up here in the Sierra Nevada's we looked at this one in zone 8 and one in a zone 10....the zone 10 home would have cost us $4,000 per year more in insurance....


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## ddahlgren (Feb 22, 2013)

Don Williams said:


> It is good business practice (in the case of Vet loans a requirement) to get inspections on bureal estate purchases. These inspections many times reveal items that need to be fixed. A home inspector (I guarantee it) will note that there is only one heating source. Not only will an insurance company many times not insure the home with one heat source, most lenders will not fund the loan on a home with only one heat source (remember that you do not own the home, the bank does until you make the final payment). So, after inspections someone has to fix the things that need fixing.....why would the buyer buy a "broken" home?
> Would you as a buyer of a used car for $10,000, take it into the mechanic for an inspection, he tells you that it needs a new engine at a cost of $2,000.....and you not go back to the seller and say I will give you $8,000 because the engine will cost $2,000?! How is this lying, cheating and stealing?
> 
> The home seller is not forced to sell! The buyer is not forced to buy...thus why we call it "Free Enterprise"


I get it from post #14


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## brian89gp (Feb 22, 2013)

Try Missour Farm Bureau, they don't seem to care about a great many things in my experience.  I'm currently insuring a place with no heat source.


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## Dune (Feb 22, 2013)

As far as I know, no bank will loan money on a house with no central heat anyway.
If you are not planning to use it, electric baseboard is the way to go. Cheap and easy.


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## MasterMech (Feb 23, 2013)

ddahlgren said:


> So some suggest lie cheat and steal from the seller.. sad..It is tough enough getting beaten up selling a house for a fair price but the general attitude of cheat the seller is just so sad..If ever there was a place filled with straight shooters I would have though it was here, maybe not..


 
If the sellers were smart, _they_ would install the elec baseboard heat and shut down the whole issue right then and there.


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## daveswoodhauler (Feb 24, 2013)

Wow, a question finally up my alley. (I'm an underwriter for a P & C carrier)
Anyway, as others have said, you have two main issues....the smaller being the lack of any heat source other than the stove...but the larger issue is the Protection Class Area being a 10.

Many carriers wont offer coverage on PC's above 7, and unfortunately with 10 being the highest (no protection), most insurers have treaty exclusions that forbids them from writing anything in a PC 10 area.

Although you could install electric heat in the building, I still don't think you would be able to find a carrier that would write this coverage on a voluntary basis. I Would check with your state to see if the have an equivelent of the "fair plan" which is usually a market backed by the governement that allows folks to get insurance on high risk properties, such as coastal risks, and others in high PC areas.

You might also check with the local fire department, as sometimes the department does not upstate their protection info with ISO.....and I have seen a few cases where the rating boards showed a property as being PC 8-9 when it was actually a PC 5-6.

If its truly a PC 10, I think your only option would be to self insure, as I don't see a lender providing a mtg for a property with no public protection.

Good Luck


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## ddahlgren (Feb 24, 2013)

I would have to think there is a lot more to a PC 10 than the fire dept 5 miles away. possibly no source of water? Bad roads? No driveway?


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## daveswoodhauler (Feb 24, 2013)

ddahlgren said:


> I would have to think there is a lot more to a PC 10 than the fire dept 5 miles away. possibly no source of water? Bad roads? No driveway?


 It can depend on a variety of items. # of trucks/equipment the town had, # of firefighters, access to water (hydrants, retaining pond, etc..) Road conditions, accessibility of heavy vehicles (i.e, a 20 wheel firetruck trying to access a curvy, mountain driveway) PC 10 is basically an area where when a fire starts, its just going to keep burning on its own.


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## saladdin (Feb 24, 2013)

daveswoodhauler said:


> It can depend on a variety of items. # of trucks/equipment the town had, # of firefighters, access to water (hydrants, retaining pond, etc..) Road conditions, accessibility of heavy vehicles (i.e, a 20 wheel firetruck trying to access a curvy, mountain driveway) PC 10 is basically an area where when a fire starts, its just going to keep burning on its own.


 
Our very own insurance nerd!

Curious. Would a pellet stove install count if a second heat source is needed in addition to the  wood stove?


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## maverick06 (Feb 25, 2013)

I have GRANGE MUTUAL CASUALTY

no problems there. originally had erie insurance. when i put in the wood stove the insurance agent said, ok... whatever... no one cares, but we will not it in your record. I went off happy. Of course I have to wonder how they would care if i had to file a claim.

What I have heard is a bigger issue is if it is your ONLY heating source. Its easy to keeps the pipes from freezing if you have centeral heat.... not so much with the wood stove... doubly so when you arent home with no centeral heat...


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