# Woodstock Soapstone Progress Hybrid Stove



## Kruegerw

Any reviews or comments on the woodstock soapstone progress hybrid stove.  Based on what I have come across, the stove came out less than one year ago.  Anyone used it?  How does it perform?  Is the hybrid just a gimmick?  I have read that catalytic systems require a lot of TLC - I am familiar with loading, cranking down the damper, and walking away.  Since they do not have distributors (factory direct only) should this be a concern?  Finally, for the dollar - are there better options?

Wanting to heat 3000 sq ft


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## Vic99

Hi.  Welcome.  Do a forum search on "Progress Hybrid".  Lots of good info.  Other here will probably chime in soon.  The hybrid tech does not seem to be a gimmick.

CAT systems are no problem now.  There were some issues in the 70s, but modern CAT stoves require popping out the CAT, brushing it off, and putting it back in.  Really all of 5 minutes every month or two.

I have had a Hearthstone nonCAT and liked it.  Now I have a Woodstock Fireview and am very happy with it.  Woodstock is an American company with solid customer service.


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## Ashful

Ditto on all Vic99 said. Woodstock seems to be one of the most adored manufacturers around here, and there are several happy Progress owners on the forum. Great customer service and money-back guarantee. I'm a fan of catalytic stoves, and the "problems" to which you refer are virtually non-existent on modern stoves for anyone but the most careless. Cat's got a bad name in the early days, when stove manufacturers were taking non-cat stove designs and trying to (unsuccessfully) mate catalytic converters to them, but the Progress was designed around the cat from its inception.

Maintenance involves removing the cat once or twice a year to vacuum or brush it clean. If you think you've poisoned it by burning something you shouldn't (waxy colored paper, treated wood, etc.), you can usually do a "refresh" by boiling it in a vinegar solution. After 5 - 6 years, you may notice the cat's performance decreasing, and then you can replace it (usually $150'ish, so figure $25 - $30/year operating cost).

Operation is simple: put the stove in "bypass mode", build a fire and let the cat warm up to > 500°F, and then engage the cat. You'll see the converter temp rise to > 1000°F, and the smoke coming out of your chimney will just disappear. As you might have already guessed, a catalytic converter temperature probe is a big help for beginners. Once you've learned the stove's behavior, you can pull the probe and sell it on ebay, if you decide you no longer need it for guidance.


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## kingquad

Woodstock (along with Englander) have the best customer service in the business.  Call them and talk to them directly.  They will treat you great and that treatment will continue post purchase.  They have a BBQ every fall and give great discounts on their stoves there.  Lots of board members show up.  Looks like a great time.

The Progress is a new stove with new technology.  It's gonna take a couple seasons before people really get it dialed in.  Initial reports are that it's a great stove.  I personally wish it was cat only, but it's still on my radar for my new house.


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## BrowningBAR

Vic99 said:


> Hi. Welcome. Do a forum search on "Progress Hybrid". Lots of good info. Other here will probably chime in soon. * The hybrid tech* does not seem to be a gimmick.


 
Maybe not a gimmick, but the benefits are in doubt.


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## begreen

Search by typing Progress Hybrid in the search box at the upper right. You should come across at least a half-dozen reports of burning since late last November. Folks like the big fire view and the controllability  of the stove. There were some early bugs and design kinks being worked out as the stove saw real world use. Woodstock has been very responsive about addressing these issues and providing their customers with updated parts.


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## fox9988

Woodstock's 6 month in-home satisfaction guarantee plus return shipping is very convincing. They are having a sale until Aug 17 (+ free shipping if you qualify?) and will even delay the start of the satisfaction guarantee until burning season begins.


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## Todd

They just posted a new thread on their blog boasting the highest tested efficiency on the EPA stove list. Efficiency is nice but i would like it better as a straight cat stove that could do consistant 24 hour burns like the similar sized Blaze King's.


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## HollowHill

I have one and love it.  Heats my drafty big old barn of a house and is very simple to operate.  Very solid and dependable.  Customer service is superb.  Would not hesitate to get one again, no regrets.


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## Backwoods Savage

Kruegerw said:


> Any reviews or comments on the woodstock soapstone progress hybrid stove. Based on what I have come across, the stove came out less than one year ago. Anyone used it? How does it perform? Is the hybrid just a gimmick? I have read that catalytic systems require a lot of TLC - I am familiar with loading, cranking down the damper, and walking away. Since they do not have distributors (factory direct only) should this be a concern? Finally, for the dollar - are there better options?
> 
> Wanting to heat 3000 sq ft


 

3,000 sq ft is a lot of space. If you have good insulation, good windows, etc, then heating this space can be done.

The Woodstock Progress is a new stove and they are still making improvements to it. With the new cooking surface, this stove really has much to offer. Do not hesitate to call and talk to the good folks there. You won't get high pressure but will get good advice. As for the TLC with the cat, worry not about it. And don't forget the fantastic money-back guarantee. They don't get many back because folks are really satisfied and if there are problems, which there can be with any stove, Woodstock will be right there with top notch customer service. Good luck.


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## rdust

Woodstock is a great company, I don't think I've ever seen a bad thing posted about them. I don't know much about their stoves but the masses who praise them tells me all I need to know. If they start to offer the hybrid "naked"(no stone) I may find myself standing in line for one.


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## Kruegerw

HollowHill said:


> I have one and love it. Heats my drafty big old barn of a house and is very simple to operate. Very solid and dependable. Customer service is superb. Would not hesitate to get one again, no regrets.


 
With the side load, can you put enough wood in the stove to burn all night?


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## rdust

Kruegerw said:


> With the side load, can you put enough wood in the stove to burn all night?


 
I don't have the stove but I know it'll burn through the night with ease. If I remember right some people were reporting 12-16 hours last season.


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## Kruegerw

rdust said:


> Woodstock is a great company, I don't think I've ever seen a bad thing posted about them. I don't know much about their stoves but the masses who praise them tells me all I need to know. If they start to offer the hybrid "naked"(no stone) I may find myself standing in line for one.


 
Just curious, what makes you nervous about the stone?  Do you think the Woodstock is equal to or possibly even superior to a Hearthstone Soapstone?


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## rdust

Kruegerw said:


> Just curious, what makes you nervous about the stone? Do you think the Woodstock is equal to or possibly even superior to a Hearthstone Soapstone?


 
I'm not nervous about the stone I'm just not a fan of the stone look, it's a little too fancy for my taste in a stove. I like plain ole' steel stoves. 

As for the stones I've never read many complaints about either stone failing. I think either one will be fine if cared for properly.


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## HollowHill

Kruegerw said:


> With the side load, can you put enough wood in the stove to burn all night?


I do burn 24/7 and, although the temp has dropped a bit when I get up in the morning, the stove is still throwing out some heat and I have a nice coal bed to get her going again - just throw in the next load, close the door, and she's off and running.  I don't fill it as full as it could be at nite, still a little nervous as a newbie to do that just yet.  There are other owners of the Hybrid, more experienced, who do much better in this regard.


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## Highbeam

For the "large" Progress Hybrid cat stove to ONLY burn 12-16 hours... the stove's design is a failure. Seriously, if the competitor can get 30 hours from the same sized firebox then woodstock needs to do lots more than make tweaks. Sure it's efficient, sure it's beautiful, sure the company's service is excellent but if this cat stove can only perform like a non-cat then why not just get a non-cat? Lots of attractive non-cat stoves to choose from that are easier and cheaper to operate.

Imagine buying a car that gets only 10 mpg when the same size car is available with the same size engine from another company getting 20 mpg.

Burn times are the number one priority for the real 24/7 burner that actually uses the stove for primary heat. The other woodstock cat stoves seem to get decent burntimes. It's too bad they couldn't have just stuck with straight cat technology that they are so good at. 

I had high hopes for this new stove when it was first announced, I am disappointed in the reports. Never liked the name either. Sorry to be negative but facts are facts.


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## rdust

Highbeam said:


> Sure it's efficient, sure it's beautiful, sure the company's service is excellent but if this cat stove can only perform like a non-cat then why not just get a non-cat? Lots of attractive non-cat stoves to choose from that are easier and cheaper to operate.


 
As it's been stated before it appears these "hybrid" stoves are non cats with a cat to clean up whatever emissions is missed during the secondary burn.  



Highbeam said:


> *Burn times are the number one priority for the real 24/7 burner that actually uses the stove for primary heat.* The other woodstock cat stoves seem to get decent burntimes. It's too bad they couldn't have just stuck with straight cat technology that they are so good at.


 
This is the main reason I ended up with the BK, the Lopi was bought with the intent of supplementing my propane bill.  Once I was hooked I needed/wanted the longest burn time I could get on a 6" flue.


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## Highbeam

I don't know of many people willing to suffer such poor burntimes and lack of stove temp control for the benefit of dropping from 1.5 to 1.0 grams per hour (not exact numbers). Cleaning that last spec of theoretical emissions in a lab setting is worth nothing. All of the current good stoves meet the EPA emission regulations by a large margin.

Good way to put it, a non-cat with a cat added for emissions. It's like a time machine. Wasn't this attempted back in the 80s to meet the new EPA regs?


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## Ashful

Highbeam said:


> Good way to put it, a non-cat with a cat added for emissions. It's like a time machine. Wasn't this attempted back in the 80s to meet the new EPA regs?


 
You're getting hung up on terminology.  The "non-cat" stoves they added cat's to in the 1980's were old smoke dragons, without secondary burn function.  The hybrid stoves we're discussing today are non-cat EPA / reburn stoves, with a cat added to run in parallel or series with the non-cat reburn.


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## Highbeam

Got it.

I do admit that the PH is a nice looking machine and that if I wanted high output only, it would be hard to beat. The price was quite good during the introductary period too.


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## BrowningBAR

Highbeam said:


> Got it.
> 
> I do admit that the PH is a nice looking machine and that if I wanted high output only, it would be hard to beat. The price was quite good during the introductary period too.


 

Just make it a straight cat stove and those burn times would jump.


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## kingquad

BrowningBAR said:


> Just make it a straight cat stove and those burn time would jump.


Yes, just add a T-stat and it would be awesome. Make it as big as an Equinox, and it would be my dream stove.  6in flue of course


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## Todd

I'm still waiting for more info on those PH burn times. I've heard anywhere from 12-24 hours so far and there hasn't been that many reports since the stove just came out last winter. If I knew I could get a consistant 24 hour burn I'd buy one this Fall. It's still tempting to get one and block those secondary baffle holes and turn it into a true cat stove.


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## rdust

Todd said:


> It's still tempting to get one and block those secondary baffle holes and turn it into a true cat stove.


 
They engineered it with that secondary air being part of the deal.(obviously)  It may take some tweaking but I'm sure you could get it to burn good with just the cat.


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## rdust

kingquad said:


> Yes, just add a T-stat and it would be awesome. Make it as big as an Equinox, and it would be my dream stove. 6in flue of course


 
I don't think the T-Stat is that important if you're basing it on the BK T-Stat for low burn times.  When I'm dialed down on a low burn that T-Stat is doing nothing.  I do think it contributes to the nice even output on the higher burn temps during the meat of the winter though.  When I have it dialed in just right I can watch the coals darken and brighten up as the T-Stat does it's thing.


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## Todd

rdust said:


> They engineered it with that secondary air being part of the deal.(obviously)  It may take some tweaking but I'm sure you could get it to burn good with just the cat.



Yeah but all the air comes through one air control unlike a true non cat which usually has a steperate secondary air inlet that is uncontrollable. The PH must have the air branch off the primary to feed the baffle and cat. I bet there's a way to block that baffle air. I'd like to get a good look at the air control.


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## Highbeam

Perhaps a "whole" intake restrictor on the main OAK hookup. On my hearthstone, I could limit all air to the stove by covering up the 3" nipple air inlet on the rear. I'm sure that woodstock wanted the stove to run this way, they have skills. Their goals are just not the same as ours.


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## charly

Too bad you can't go see Woodstock's stoves in person. You won't believe you eye's, seeing the nice workmanship! That's why people love their stoves. They are simply works of art and just beautifully built. The even hand fit the stones on each stove, removing a little material here and there until the have the perfect fit that only they will accept. Look and you will buy. I was watching them check fit the stones for the new cook top on the Hybrid. My god an 1/8 th inch gap was out of the question, way too big, they were looking for maybe a .020 thousandth gap or so. Just amazing what standards they adhere to.  Makes you feel good about owning one of their stoves. And with all that good stuff you have great service and parts availability along with a bunch of super nice people. The whole thing is good.


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## fire_man

Last winter was not such a good test for this stove - it was way too warm. But my comments:

-It heats MUCH better than the Fireview did, and burns longer.
-Heats up quickly from a cold start.
-I once burned a load of very old but rained on cottonwood. This clogged the screen quickly to the point I had
to put the fire out because smoke was backing into the house. Otherwise the screen stayed clean most of the winter when burning dry wood.
Draft was noticeably weaker than other stoves I owned, probably because the stove is so darn efficient and has low flue temps. This year I am insulating the liner, which should help.

I really liked the Fireview but I really really like the Progress.


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## Waulie

It is true that the Progress can't be run like a regular cat stove on a full load.  I highly doubt this would be an issue for someone trying to heat 3,000 square feet!

I love my Progress.  It works perfect for my needs.  On a "warmer" night, I just load it 60 percent full or so, dial it down and let the cat go to work for 12 hours.  On a cold night, I fill it full and let the secondaries crank out the heat for 14 hours or so.  The stove really does sip wood, and efficiency does matter if you want to limit your wood use.

No, it will not burn for 30 hours.  This is not a problem for me at all.  I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it with the disclaimer that 3,000 square feet is a lot if not very well insulated.

Also, I just received my new cook top for free!  It just showed up at my door with an invoice balance of $0.00.  Not bad!


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## HollowHill

Waulie said:


> It is true that the Progress can't be run like a regular cat stove on a full load. I highly doubt this would be an issue for someone trying to heat 3,000 square feet!
> 
> I love my Progress. It works perfect for my needs. On a "warmer" night, I just load it 60 percent full or so, dial it down and let the cat go to work for 12 hours. On a cold night, I fill it full and let the secondaries crank out the heat for 14 hours or so. The stove really does sip wood, and efficiency does matter if you want to limit your wood use.
> 
> No, it will not burn for 30 hours. This is not a problem for me at all. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it with the disclaimer that 3,000 square feet is a lot if not very well insulated.
> 
> Also, I just received my new cook top for free! It just showed up at my door with an invoice balance of $0.00. Not bad!


Waulie,  That is exciting!  I didn't know they were in yet.  Haven't received mine yet.  How do you like it?  Have you installed it yet?


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## Waulie

HollowHill said:


> Waulie, That is exciting! I didn't know they were in yet. Haven't received mine yet. How do you like it? Have you installed it yet?


 
Yeah it is exciting HH!  I just received it today so I haven't installed it yet.  It does look very nice.  The cast on the cook top is heavy duty just like everything WS does.  The stone pieces are a bit thinner than the old top but still very substantial.

They include instructions and the process looks very easy. They sent a new gasket to go under the cook top and just say to take a look at your current gasket to see if you need to replace it or not.  I can't wait to try it out!  I do still love my solid top stone but heck now I have both!


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## Backwoods Savage

Hey Waulie, please give us a review when you get it installed. What do you plan on cooking first?


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## Waulie

Backwoods Savage said:


> Hey Waulie, please give us a review when you get it installed. What do you plan on cooking first?


 Will definately give a review Dennis!  I'm not sure what I'll cook first...  something easy would probably be in order.  Maybe chicken and white bean chile?  I going to need to learn to use a dutch oven too since I've never really messed with one. 

I have a propane stove, so even power outages aren't a problem.  But, I've now been dropped by my propane company so I'm not sure who'll even bring me the stuff anymore.  My goal is to make the propane I have last this winter and do some soul searching from there.


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## rideau

I've used my PH once this summer, during a power outage, to cook and for evening light.  It was quite warm out, so windows were open and fire was small.  Fire started pretty easily and we were quite comfortable. 
I love this beautiful stove which does exactly what it was designed to do:  heat a LARGE home in a COLD climate VERY efficiently, VERY comfortably, VERY safely, with reasonable reload times.  I have had fires last up to 16 hours.  12 hour burn is easy.  Last winter I seldom filled the stove.  I'm in zone 5, over 3000 sq ft, tons of very large windows, many facing due North.  Burned the stove under 450 degrees stovetop temp except on a few very cold days.  Three story house, 1450 feet per floor, First floor high 70's, second floor (bedrooms) high 60's, 3rd floor low 60's with no attempt to distribute heat.  A small fan on a really cold day pointed into the living room pumps more heat upstairs.  I could easily get the house warmer by burning a bigger fire, but I don't want it warmer.  I used about 1 1/2 cords last year, my only heat source, burning Ironwood (primarily), Beech and Sugar Maple.  Floor plan is very traditional, except that the whole North side of the first floor is one room, open to central hall and kitchen. 
This stove heats comfortably in the shoulder season with one small fire in the evening.  Starts right up from embers.  Burns very completely. 
A few minor issues that Woodstock has or is addressing.  My biggest issue is the screen, which they are in the process of redesigning, with great care and attention to the problems owners have had with it.  Any improvements, Woodstock retrofits each stove at no charge. 
Woodstock did not try to design a stove with a 30 hour burn time.  They designed a stove to extend their line to provide a stove that would heat a large home efficiently  with once a day reload.  It does this, except in the very coldest weather with the firebox far from full.  Coldest weather requires a full firebox or 8 hour burn time. 
This stove is very efficient and will put out maximum BTU's from the wood you provide it.   
There is a learning curve burning this stove, but one quickly learns how to get a slow cat fire if that is what one wants.  Wood dimension, wood quantity and air controls all play their part.  Last winter, which was mild, I burned primarily large logs slowly.   This stove puts out almost twice the heat of a fireview from much less than twice the wood, in my opinion.  The loading door is nicely bigger than the Fireview's. but not big and restricts the number of large logs one can load.  Split to smaller size, a lot of wood can be put in the firebox for production of a great deal of heat.


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## Todd

Rideau,
What length splits are you burning? Max is 22" but If you were burning 16-18" splits does it still take more wood than a Fireview does?


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## Todd

I wonder how this stove would do if you burned it like a masonry heater? 700 lb mass of soapstone should radiate for a long time? Maybe just one good hot firing could keep a medium sized home warm for the whole day?


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## rideau

Todd said:


> Rideau,
> What length splits are you burning? Max is 22" but If you were burning 16-18" splits does it still take more wood than a Fireview does?


 PH has a bigger firebox, therefore will hold more wood. It is more efficient, in my opinion, and gives more heat from the same amount of wood.  Certainly gives more heat faster than the FIreview because of the bigger window.     My wood last season had already been split for the Fireview, so was all 18 inches or shorter.Since I never used 20-22 inch wood, and generally filled the firebox about 60% because I used large logs (6-8 inch diameter unsplit Ironwood, very dry), I seldom came close to fully loading the firebox.  I found that when I used the same amount of wood that I had used in the Fireview, I got more heat from the PH, with amazingly complete combustion, little ash residue.  Also ran no risk of the stove getting very hot very fast which happens quickly in the Fireview if you don't watch it carefully after loading.and before engaging cat.  This is a really safe stove.  I burned at a lower temp than the Fireview, lots more heat radiated through the bigger window.  Last winter was a warm winter so it is hard to compare, but I used 2 cords the winter before, 1 1/2 cords last winter.  House was much warmer last winter, and warmth was on all three floors, to a far greater extent than with Fireview.  I love the Fireview, used it for years as my only heat source except at night in distant bedrooms, but to be honest the upstairs was chilly and we only used it for sleeping., always used soapstone warmers in the beds.  With the PH I was immediately struck by the fact that I was not aware of cooler air as I clmibed the stais.   To summarize, you certainly can burn the stove with the same amount of wood as a Fireview,  and judging from my experience will get more heat, and get that heat more quicly, than in a FIreview.  On milder days, smaller, cooler fires are adequate to heat my home.  The great thing is that on really cold days you have the firebox size to burn significantly more wood. and can get a great deal more heat than you ever could from the fireview.  Since you can control heat output by both wood input and air controls, this stove gives you great versatility burning an extemely reasonable amount of wood.  I am so glas I bought this stove.  It has made a bif difference in the comfort of my home in the winter.


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## Todd

Thanks, good info Rideau. I'm still curious what this stove can do with a fully packed firebox of 22" splits. Seems like most everyone is burning 16-18" which is what I have for the next 3 years. Even with smaller wood it looks like it has little problem achieving 12+ hour burns and delivering great heat output.


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## Ashful

Todd said:


> Thanks, good info Rideau. I'm still curious what this stove can do with a fully packed firebox of 22" splits. Seems like most everyone is burning 16-18" which is what I have for the next 3 years.


 
You split with a maul, and you're able to consistently cut the same lengths? I find myself cutting to where knots or elbows are, for easiest hand splitting. Gnarly pieces might get cut as short as 14", while nice straight clean stuff is cut 20 - 22". I'd guess the nice straight clean stuff accounts for less than half my total supply.

This is the curse of taking free wood, when you're a hand splitter. Most folks don't consider the guy who has to split the stuff when they're bucking a tree or branch wood.

_edit: forgot to say... "thread hijack!"_


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## Todd

I try to cut everything 16" and if I run into hard to split by hand I use my little 8 ton power splitter. Stacking is more sturdy if they are all about the same length and I stack 7' high in my shed.


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## fox9988

Those with a PH and short wood could burn a row E/W across the back, then fill N/S in the front. Take advantage of a few more cu in.


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## Todd

What is the fire box dimentions on the PH? Can some post a picture of the fire box through the door?


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## certified106

rideau said:


> I've used my PH once this summer, during a power outage, to cook and for evening light. It was quite warm out, so windows were open and fire was small. Fire started pretty easily and we were quite comfortable.
> I love this beautiful stove which does exactly what it was designed to do: heat a LARGE home in a COLD climate VERY efficiently, VERY comfortably, VERY safely, with reasonable reload times. I have had fires last up to 16 hours. 12 hour burn is easy. Last winter I seldom filled the stove. I'm in zone 5, over 3000 sq ft, tons of very large windows, many facing due North. Burned the stove under 450 degrees stovetop temp except on a few very cold days. Three story house, 1450 feet per floor, First floor high 70's, second floor (bedrooms) high 60's, 3rd floor low 60's with no attempt to distribute heat.  *I used about 1 1/2 cords* last year, my only heat source, burning Ironwood (primarily), Beech and Sugar Maple. Floor plan is very traditional, except that the whole North side of the first floor is one room, open to central hall and kitchen.
> This stove heats comfortably in the shoulder season with one small fire in the evening. Starts right up from embers. Burns very completely.
> A few minor issues that Woodstock has or is addressing.
> 
> I burned primarily large logs slowly. *This stove puts out almost twice the heat of a fireview* from much less than twice the wood, in my opinion. The loading door is nicely bigger than the Fireview's. but not big and restricts the number of large logs one can load. Split to smaller size, a lot of wood can be put in the firebox for production of a great deal of heat.


 
I want to preface this by saying I think Woodstock is a stand up company and produces a great product. I have even reccomended Keystones to quite a few people who have smaller homes and were looking for all night burns with a wood stove. But...............I have to say I have a very hard time figuring out how you heat 4350 sq ft of house in Southern Ontario on 1.5 cord of wood a year? The numbers just don't add up and there is only so many BTU's in a cord of wood no matter how you burn it. Then to say the PH puts out twice as much heat on the same amount of wood just doesn't jive with me. Just for the sake of my argument even if you said the Fireview was only 50% efficient (yes I know it is more efficient than that) that would mean the PH is now 100% efficient.......I'm just not following this at all


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## Highbeam

certified106 said:


> I want to preface this by saying I think Woodstock is a stand up company and produces a great product. I have even reccomended Keystones to quite a few people who have smaller homes and were looking for all night burns with a wood stove. But...............I have to say I have a very hard time figuring out how you heat 4350 sq ft of house in Southern Ontario on 1.5 cord of wood a year? The numbers just don't add up and there is only so many BTU's in a cord of wood no matter how you burn it. Then to say the PH puts out twice as much heat on the same amount of wood just doesn't jive with me. Just for the sake of my argument even if you said the Fireview was only 50% efficient (yes I know it is more efficient than that) that would mean the PH is now 100% efficient.......I'm just not following this at all


 
+1, I like catstoves and the WS people really like their stoves but that's just a bit hard to believe. I can carry a cord of wood in my pickup. 1.5 cords is hardly anything, fill your stove twice a day for only 35 days at minimum stove output. Isn't the heating season longer than 35 days? To heat a huge house like that in Canada you would need more btus.


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## 3fordasho

Waulie said:


> Also, I just received my new cook top for free! It just showed up at my door with an invoice balance of $0.00. Not bad!


 

I received shipment notification yesterday, should receive the new cooktop on Monday


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## Ashful

Highbeam said:


> +1, I like catstoves and the WS people really like their stoves but that's just a bit hard to believe. I can carry a cord of wood in my pickup. 1.5 cords is hardly anything, fill your stove twice a day for only 35 days at minimum stove output. Isn't the heating season longer than 35 days? To heat a huge house like that in Canada you would need more btus.


 
Easy folks... he's on the metric system, so he's burning metric cords.  I think the rule is, double it and add 32.  So, he's burning 35 of our imperial cords.


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## rideau

fox9988 said:


> Those with a PH and short wood could burn a row E/W across the back, then fill N/S in the front. Take advantage of a few more cu in.


 Can't burn much more than 12 inch n/s.


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## rideau

certified106 said:


> I want to preface this by saying I think Woodstock is a stand up company and produces a great product. I have even reccomended Keystones to quite a few people who have smaller homes and were looking for all night burns with a wood stove. But...............I have to say I have a very hard time figuring out how you heat 4350 sq ft of house in Southern Ontario on 1.5 cord of wood a year? The numbers just don't add up and there is only so many BTU's in a cord of wood no matter how you burn it. Then to say the PH puts out twice as much heat on the same amount of wood just doesn't jive with me. Just for the sake of my argument even if you said the Fireview was only 50% efficient (yes I know it is more efficient than that) that would mean the PH is now 100% efficient.......I'm just not following this at all


 Just going by what I have experienced.  I'm burning Ironwood logs, they burn slowly and produce a lot of heat. I can get this stove to burn more slowly than the Fireview.   I was really surprised in the difference in actual heating of the house, and can only surmise that a lot less heat is lost up the chimney.  A great deal more heat is radiated out the window than with the Fireview, and it may be that the Soapstone can only absorb so much heat, then in the Fireview more is lost up the chimney?>  Don't know, and have wondered, but what I'm telling is what happened.  Previous winter I burned 2 cords in the Fireview.  I have insulated curtains, which I keep closed nights, really cold days (except to the south when the day is sunny), and I am not comfortable when the house gets too hot, spend lots of time outdoors during the day, so keep the house in the 70's on the first floor....My house is really well built and insulated---2x6 Doug Fir, cedar shingles, Pella windows.  Lots of mass to heat up and retain heat...floors are two layers of 3/4 inch plywood topped with wideboard hardwood floors in oak/maple/cherry or teak and then topped with carpets.Good insulation in the walls and ceiling, large mostly below grade full basement.  It's a tight home.  A face cord usually lasts me three weeks in the dead of winter.  I may stack more wood in a face cord than many people, since a lot of my wood is 16 inch to 18 inch long unsplit 6-8 inch diameter Ironwood logs, well dried.  May be a lot less air space than most people have in a cord....And Ironwood burns slowly and produces a lot of heat.  I am also on very rocky soil, densely wooded and my wood (all of it..beech,maple, ironwood,hickory and ash) is very dense with tight growth rings.  Have always assumed this dense heavy wood produces more heat than your average wood grown on deep soil/properly thinned. 
Anyway, I'm not complaining.  The less splitting I do the better.  I hand split bigger diameter wood,and both sugar maple and Ironwood can be a pain when the grain isn't straight.


----------



## Todd

That's very impressive heating that much house on less than 2 cords. I think I could do it as well if I just burned my main floor stove and kept the basement stove cold. I'm still pondering whether to install a gas stove down there or maybe a new PH or just keep as is.


----------



## mliiiwit

certified106 said:


> Then *to say the PH puts out twice as much heat on the same amount of wood* just doesn't jive with me. Just for the sake of my argument even if you said the Fireview was only 50% efficient (yes I know it is more efficient than that) that would mean the PH is now 100% efficient.......I'm just not following this at all


 
Rideau never stated the PH puts out twice as much heat on the same amount of wood. Only you have said that. His statement was that he felt he gets twice the heat for* far less than twice the wood*. It's interesting that you even highlighted just the first half of his statement in your reply. Seems you have an ulterior motive to cast the PH in a negative light. Either that, or you simply need to revisit one or two of the 3 R's (Reading and aRithmatic, just so you're not left wondering about R's)


----------



## mliiiwit

Highbeam said:


> For the "large" Progress Hybrid cat stove to ONLY burn 12-16 hours... the stove's design is a failure. Seriously, if the competitor can get 30 hours from the same sized firebox then woodstock needs to do lots more than make tweaks. Sure it's efficient, sure it's beautiful, sure the company's service is excellent but if this cat stove can only perform like a non-cat then why not just get a non-cat? Lots of attractive non-cat stoves to choose from that are easier and cheaper to operate.
> 
> Imagine buying a car that gets only 10 mpg when the same size car is available with the same size engine from another company getting 20 mpg.
> 
> Burn times are the number one priority for the real 24/7 burner that actually uses the stove for primary heat. The other woodstock cat stoves seem to get decent burntimes. It's too bad they couldn't have just stuck with straight cat technology that they are so good at.
> 
> I had high hopes for this new stove when it was first announced, I am disappointed in the reports. Never liked the name either. Sorry to be negative but facts are facts.


 

For the "large" Progress Hybrid cat stove to ONLY burn 12-16 hours... the stove's design is a failure.

Really? What was WS's intent with the design? I have never seen any indication that the design was intended to achieve days-long burn times. Increased efficiency obviously WAS a goal of the design and this is proven to have been achieved.  So your claim that the design is a failure is completely false.

Seriously, if the competitor can get 30 hours from the same sized firebox then woodstock needs to do lots more than make tweaks. Sure it's efficient, sure it's beautiful, sure the company's service is excellent *but if this cat stove can only perform like a non-cat* then why not just get a non-cat? Lots of attractive non-cat stoves to choose from that are easier and cheaper to operate.

The part of your statement underlined is untrue. The PH can be operated in either mode. The advantage of the hybrid is that the secondaries provide for most of a complete burn at any rate above the lowest burn rates, unloading the demand on the catalytic, while the secondaries can be completely shut down for low burn while still having full benefit of complete catalytic combustion. Secondary air is fully, though not separately, controllable. When you completely close the draft, the firebox cools to the point that secondary combustion is no longer sustainable. That's when the real business of producing heat moves fully upstairs into the cat. No pretty flames to look at, but a VERY efficient burn mode.  And to anyone wondering, I say "upstairs to the cat" because the cat is at the very top of the stove and is not visible through the window.

What is your basis for assuming the PH is harder or more expensive to operate? The return from higher efficiency will very likely exceed the expense of occasionally replacing the catalytic and the stove has only 2 controls.  I think most people are fully capable of steering and accelerating or braking at the same time and the PH controls do not require concurrent usage.  Also, you are arguing both sides of the coin. In the beginning you are arguing for long burn times (cat stoves), but then you argue for non-cat stoves that are "easier and cheaper to operate".  Secondary burn stoves aren't exactly famous for long burn times. A cat is a MUST HAVE for long, low fire burn times. So, just what is your point here, other than to attempt to cast the PH and/or WS in a negative light?

Imagine buying a car that gets only 10 mpg when the same size car is available with the same size engine from another company getting 20 mpg.

This comparison doesn't even make sense for your argument. No other stove tested to date is as efficient as the WS PH. You're saying that efficiency (mpg) is related to firebox (gas tank) size. Your reasoning actually shows the PH is the better stove as IT IS THE SAME CAR THAT GETS BETTER MILEAGE, as you put it. You just have to fill the tank a little more often.

Your grudge, whatever it is, with Woodstock and/or the PH is either blinding you to simple facts about the stove or motivating you to intentionally make false, negative statements about it. It burns more efficiently than any stove ever tested under controlled conditions. It WILL provide more heat output per btu input than any other stove tested to date. Period.

Burn times are the number one priority for the real 24/7 burner that actually uses the stove for primary heat. The other woodstock cat stoves seem to get decent burntimes. It's too bad they couldn't have just stuck with straight cat technology that they are so good at.

Now you're back to arguing for cat only stoves (long burn times). Burn times are NOT MY #1 priority (and I do heat 24/7 with a PH, when heat is needed) and I suspect that your statement that burn time is #1 priority is not as true as you'd like to believe. If it were, EVERYONE would own a Blazeking, wouldn't they? What need would there be for any other stove to be on the market? Again, your grudge with WS/PH seems obvious.

Also, just what is the official definition of "burn time"? As far as I know, there is no official definition or testing that defines this term. It's just a lot of very subjective numbers thrown around on the forum and by manufacturers. Also, I believe you should do a bit closer comparison of firebox sizes when discussing these subjective numbers. Based on firebox sizes, I don't think burn time was the primary goal of WS for the PH.

I had high hopes for this new stove when it was first announced, *I am disappointed in the reports*. Never liked the name either. Sorry to be negative but *facts are facts*.

I believe you are disappointed because your expectations of the stove were not WS's design objective. The "facts" you mention are actually only your opinion. "Never liked the name" Really? Please explain for all forum members how the name affects the stoves performance or appearance, or the quality of WS customer service.  Again, your grudge.......

I do fully believe that you are sorry to be negative as most negative people I know ARE SORRY.

To everybody else reading my replies:  I apologize if my sarcasm toward Certified and Highbeam offends you. But it really peeves me when forum members make false statements about products they have no experience with, or when they twist another member's post into something that is not even close to the original post, and nobody calls them on it. The forum is for sharing information (truth or honest opinion based on experience) and not for such baseless aspersions as these members have posted.

I installed my PH in Feb 12 and my parents have had a Fireview for years. They are very good stoves and, if there were an industry review of customer service, I have no doubt that WS would rank highest in the industry, hands down. These folks are just unbelievably committed to quality in all facets of the business. For anyone looking for objective information/opinion on products to help make an investment decision, I most confidently recommend the Fireview or PH if either is in your consideration.


----------



## BrowningBAR

mliiiwit said:


> Rideau never stated the PH puts out twice as much heat on the same amount of wood. Only you have said that. His statement was that he felt he gets twice the heat for* far less than twice the wood*. It's interesting that you even highlighted just the first half of his statement in your reply. Seems you have an ulterior motive to cast the PH in a negative light. Either that, or you simply need to revisit one or two of the 3 R's (Reading and aRithmatic, just so you're not left wondering about R's)


Enough with the insults. It was a legitimate question from certified. There are no "ulterior motives". People really need to be less sensitive when it comes to questions about certain stoves.


----------



## BrowningBAR

mliiiwit said:


> For the "large" Progress Hybrid cat stove to ONLY burn 12-16 hours... the stove's design is a failure.
> 
> Really? What was WS's intent with the design? I have never seen any indication that the design was intended to achieve days-long burn times. Increased efficiency obviously WAS a goal of the design and this is proven to have been achieved.  So your claim that the design is a failure is completely false.
> 
> Seriously, if the competitor can get 30 hours from the same sized firebox then woodstock needs to do lots more than make tweaks. Sure it's efficient, sure it's beautiful, sure the company's service is excellent *but if this cat stove can only perform like a non-cat* then why not just get a non-cat? Lots of attractive non-cat stoves to choose from that are easier and cheaper to operate.
> 
> The part of your statement underlined is untrue. The PH can be operated in either mode. The advantage of the hybrid is that the secondaries provide for most of a complete burn at any rate above the lowest burn rates, unloading the demand on the catalytic, while the secondaries can be completely shut down for low burn while still having full benefit of complete catalytic combustion. Secondary air is fully, though not separately, controllable. When you completely close the draft, the firebox cools to the point that secondary combustion is no longer sustainable. That's when the real business of producing heat moves fully upstairs into the cat. No pretty flames to look at, but a VERY efficient burn mode.  And to anyone wondering, I say "upstairs to the cat" because the cat is at the very top of the stove and is not visible through the window.
> 
> What is your basis for assuming the PH is harder or more expensive to operate? The return from higher efficiency will very likely exceed the expense of occasionally replacing the catalytic and the stove has only 2 controls.  I think most people are fully capable of steering and accelerating or braking at the same time and the PH controls do not require concurrent usage.  Also, you are arguing both sides of the coin. In the beginning you are arguing for long burn times (cat stoves), but then you argue for non-cat stoves that are "easier and cheaper to operate".  Secondary burn stoves aren't exactly famous for long burn times. A cat is a MUST HAVE for long, low fire burn times. So, just what is your point here, other than to attempt to cast the PH and/or WS in a negative light?
> 
> Imagine buying a car that gets only 10 mpg when the same size car is available with the same size engine from another company getting 20 mpg.
> 
> This comparison doesn't even make sense for your argument. No other stove tested to date is as efficient as the WS PH. You're saying that efficiency (mpg) is related to firebox (gas tank) size. Your reasoning actually shows the PH is the better stove as IT IS THE SAME CAR THAT GETS BETTER MILEAGE, as you put it. You just have to fill the tank a little more often.
> 
> Your grudge, whatever it is, with Woodstock and/or the PH is either blinding you to simple facts about the stove or motivating you to intentionally make false, negative statements about it. It burns more efficiently than any stove ever tested under controlled conditions. It WILL provide more heat output per btu input than any other stove tested to date. Period.
> 
> Burn times are the number one priority for the real 24/7 burner that actually uses the stove for primary heat. The other woodstock cat stoves seem to get decent burntimes. It's too bad they couldn't have just stuck with straight cat technology that they are so good at.
> 
> Now you're back to arguing for cat only stoves (long burn times). Burn times are NOT MY #1 priority (and I do heat 24/7 with a PH, when heat is needed) and I suspect that your statement that burn time is #1 priority is not as true as you'd like to believe. If it were, EVERYONE would own a Blazeking, wouldn't they? What need would there be for any other stove to be on the market? Again, your grudge with WS/PH seems obvious.
> 
> Also, just what is the official definition of "burn time"? As far as I know, there is no official definition or testing that defines this term. It's just a lot of very subjective numbers thrown around on the forum and by manufacturers. Also, I believe you should do a bit closer comparison of firebox sizes when discussing these subjective numbers. Based on firebox sizes, I don't think burn time was the primary goal of WS for the PH.
> 
> I had high hopes for this new stove when it was first announced, *I am disappointed in the reports*. Never liked the name either. Sorry to be negative but *facts are facts*.
> 
> I believe you are disappointed because your expectations of the stove were not WS's design objective. The "facts" you mention are actually only your opinion. "Never liked the name" Really? Please explain for all forum members how the name affects the stoves performance or appearance, or the quality of WS customer service.  Again, your grudge.......
> 
> I do fully believe that you are sorry to be negative as most negative people I know ARE SORRY.
> 
> To everybody else reading my replies:  I apologize if my sarcasm toward Certified and Highbeam offends you. But it really peeves me when forum members make false statements about products they have no experience with, or when they twist another member's post into something that is not even close to the original post, and nobody calls them on it. The forum is for sharing information (truth or honest opinion based on experience) and not for such baseless aspersions as these members have posted.
> 
> I installed my PH in Feb 12 and my parents have had a Fireview for years. They are very good stoves and, if there were an industry review of customer service, I have no doubt that WS would rank highest in the industry, hands down. These folks are just unbelievably committed to quality in all facets of the business. For anyone looking for objective information/opinion on products to help make an investment decision, I most confidently recommend the Fireview or PH if either is in your consideration.



Cut the crap.


----------



## mliiiwit

BrowningBAR said:


> Cut the crap.


I stand by my posts.  Their aspersions aren't contributing to the forum.


----------



## BrowningBAR

mliiiwit said:


> I stand by my posts.  Their aspersions aren't contributing to the forum.


They are legitimate questions and statements. Yours, on the other hand, are insulting and condescending. If you have constructive information regarding the stove, post it.


----------



## rdust

mliiiwit said:


> The part of your statement underlined is untrue. The PH can be operated in either mode. The advantage of the hybrid is that the secondaries provide for most of a complete burn at any rate above the lowest burn rates, unloading the demand on the catalytic, while the secondaries can be completely shut down for low burn while still having full benefit of complete catalytic combustion. Secondary air is fully, though not separately, controllable. When you completely close the draft, the firebox cools to the point that secondary combustion is no longer sustainable. That's when the real business of producing heat moves fully upstairs into the cat. No pretty flames to look at, but a VERY efficient burn mode. And to anyone wondering, I say "upstairs to the cat" because the cat is at the very top of the stove and is not visible through the window..


 
This hasn't been reported by members using the stove. They've posted once the secondaries take over there is no stopping them. I've read WS has a posted procedure on their site.

Please make a post detailing your experiences we would love to read them.



mliiiwit said:


> Now you're back to arguing for cat only stoves (long burn times). Burn times are NOT MY #1 priority (and I do heat 24/7 with a PH, when heat is needed) and I suspect that your statement that burn time is #1 priority is not as true as you'd like to believe.


 
My goal is to heat my house and easily as possible and burn times are my number 1 goal. BK isn't my first stove it's my second after being disappointed with the burn times of the first.



mliiiwit said:


> "Never liked the name" Really? Please explain for all forum members how the name affects the stoves performance or appearance, or the quality of WS customer service. Again, your grudge.......


 
It doesn't affect any of those things but most people can agree the name choice was poor.

Remember this is a forum on the internet it's full of people opinions.


----------



## BrowningBAR

mliiiwit said:


> To everybody else reading my replies: I apologize if my sarcasm toward Certified and Highbeam offends you. But it really peeves me when forum members make false statements about products they have no experience with, or when they twist another member's post into something that is not even close to the original post, and nobody calls them on it. The forum is for sharing information (truth or honest opinion based on experience) and not for such baseless aspersions as these members have posted.
> 
> I installed my PH in Feb 12 and my parents have had a Fireview for years. They are very good stoves and, if there were an industry review of customer service, I have no doubt that WS would rank highest in the industry, hands down. These folks are just unbelievably committed to quality in all facets of the business. For anyone looking for objective information/opinion on products to help make an investment decision, I most confidently recommend the Fireview or PH if either is in your consideration.


 
Let's focus specifically on this part of your hideously insulting post.

First off, I am really tired of Woodstock owners (not all of you, but there are several of you) getting all upset when people do not speak glowingly about them. Woodstock is one of the most recommended stoves on this forum. Everyone, including highbeam and certified and myself have recommended them to others and have spoken in a positive manner about them in the past.

But, whenever someone mentions that any of their stoves aren't absolutely perfect in every way people like you go on a rant, throw insults, and send ridiculously embarrassing Private Messages (you know who you are) to posters.

Last year before the Progress came out, Woodstock fanatics would push the Hybrid onto new posters looking for stove suggestions. When some of us mentioned that may not be a wise idea considering we don't know how it works, the fanatics let us all know how wrong we are.

Blindly pushing one brand of stoves is not beneficial to new members of this site and it is bordering on spam at this point.

Additionally, you should take a moment to grow up. This forum is about talking about how stoves function, and that includes peoples needs and expectations about a stove. If you only want to hear positive things about the products you own, may I kindly suggest that you stick to watching commercials.

The main gripe here is the hybrid technology and how it works. Right now, Woodstock is the only stove that currently offers this that is available to the public, though there are at least two other manufacturers that have models ready to hit the market. As of now, it really seems like these stoves do not act like traditional cat stoves and that they lose some of the control benefits of a traditional cat stove. If you feel otherwise, post factual information about the stove as many owners have posted information that tells many of us that the stove clearly does not run like a cat stove and that it does, in fact, alter the stoves performance and controls.

A lot of members on here are trying to figure out exactly how this tech works and if it is something that meets their needs. As of now, the information we have available seems to indicate that the hybrid technology hinders the controls of the stove and negatively effects burn times when compared to a traditional cat system.

But, this thread, and future threads like this, will be about asking questions and forming opinions about the technology. Much like how Certified and highbeam did. You may not like the questions or the opinions they form. And with that I say; tough.

If I got upset every time someone mentioned a negative opinion about the VC stoves I own, I would spend a lot of time on mindless rants desperately defending my purchase. But I don't. Because that is ridiculous and would force me to ignore information. Questions and information and statistics are very valuable. Ignoring such things is a bad direction to take in life.

Now, let's get back to the stove and what it can, or can not, do.


----------



## Huntindog1

I too have wondered what the benefit of hybrid technology is, its a very interesting concept but to actually know what the real world applications of it are would make it more appealing.

Just tot take a stab at it here, I would think since the stove gets a higher efficiency rating, that what could be going on is that when the stove is in a mode that the secondaries are firing that a certain amount of the smoke is being re-burned. Now we now nothing is perfect so even with the secondaries lit off and burning that not all the smoke is being used up. We also know that the cat works at a lower level of temp than the secondary burn tubes or manifold mode of operation. So its fair to say that if you got secondaries firing then the cat is also at a temp that it is also operating. I suspect that the cat is cleaning up what is left from the secondary burn manifold mode of operation. It might be said that secondary burn technology by its self is not perfect and it can be said Cat technology by its self is not perfect. But operating together with the secondary burn technology first cleaning up the smoke gases as good as it can then letting the Cat technology clean up an extra amount that's left over , then your left with a cleaner more efficient burning stove. Could it be that the cat works better in this mode if its receiving exhaust from the stove that has been first partially cleaned up with a secondaries firing mode of operation. It would take some lab experiments to see.

I see too that part of the hybrid technology is that a person can enjoy the best of both worlds as in shutting the air down low its a full cat mode or opening the air back up the secondaries light off and you get to see the light show.

As far as burn time goes maybe it was determined that the 14-16 hour burn time was a happy medium, its plenty long for an overnight burn or a long days work. But also the stove is tuned for best operation.

So lastly I do night have the stove or ever operated the stove but what I said above is my best guess as to the mystery every one is asking about as to  what Hybrid technology ,what it can do for the real world.


----------



## chipsoflyin

The trick to this stove is getting it to burn low and slow in cat mode only. Does the BK back puff, does the cat stall,does the glass turn black, what do the emissions from the stack look like during these 30 hour cat burns. I know these are some of the issues I've had trying to run the PH on the cat only( damper completely closed). If we can solve the " secondaries firing off" issue,I think we will start to see the longer "BK" length burns.


----------



## fire_man

chipsoflyin said:


> The trick to this stove is getting it to burn low and slow in cat mode only. Does the BK back puff, does the cat stall,does the glass turn black, what do the emissions from the stack look like during these 30 hour cat burns. I know these are some of the issues I've had trying to run the PH on the cat only( damper completely closed). If we can solve the " secondaries firing off" issue,I think we will start to see the longer "BK" length burns.


 

Chipsoflyin

What is your chimney setup - how tall, exterior,insulated? I had some cat stalls and backpuffing last year. My theory is that this stove wants a REALLY GOOD DRAFT since the flue gas temps are so low. This year I insulated the flue. It's still too warm to run my stove enough to see if insulating really worked.


----------



## chipsoflyin

My setup, on paper, is less than ideal, I have a 25 foot flue 12 by 12 running straight up through the middle of the house. My black pipe rises five feet then 45s for another 3 feet then 45s to horizontal At the thimble, after the thimble there is another 4 feet of horizontal that ties into the 12 by12 flue. The draft seems real strong as I get whistling through the small hole in the lower front when it's windy, on cold starts I have no problems with smoke in the house with the door open, and with a full load I get secondary action even with the air completely closed. By back puffing I mean with the stove black, and the cat active, the gases will ignite in the fire box causing the smoke smell in the house.


----------



## Ashful

chipsoflyin said:


> By back puffing I mean with the stove black, and the cat active, the gases will ignite in the fire box causing the smoke smell in the house.


 
Sounds like you've already figured out why, but in case not, it's because you're not moving those gasses out of the firebox and thru the cat at a sufficient rate.  Open the primary air control, draft increases, and problem solved.  Of course, then you're producing more heat than you want.  My solution to this problem was to install a 6" insulated flue in my masonry chimney, but I won't be able to tell you how well that worked until October.


----------



## rdust

chipsoflyin said:


> The trick to this stove is getting it to burn low and slow in cat mode only. *Does the BK back puff, does the cat stall,does the glass turn black, what do the emissions from the stack look like during these 30 hour cat burns.* I know these are some of the issues I've had trying to run the PH on the cat only( damper completely closed). If we can solve the " secondaries firing off" issue,I think we will start to see the longer "BK" length burns.


 
My BK does not back puff, the cat has never stalled, the glass does turn black on the low burns, stack is always clean when the cat is engaged and active. 

I'm sure a BK could back puff with insufficient draft just like any other stove.  Lets not let BK talk take over this thread.


----------



## fire_man

rdust said:


> My BK does not back puff, the cat has never stalled, the glass does turn black on the low burns, stack is always clean when the cat is engaged and active.
> 
> I'm sure a BK could back puff with insufficient draft just like any other stove. Lets not let BK talk take over this thread.


 
rdust:

Can you post your flue setup? Exterior/lined/insulated?? I'm trying to figure out relationships with this stove between the flue setups and how well their stove  runs


----------



## Huntindog1

Joful said:


> Sounds like you've already figured out why, but in case not, it's because you're not moving those gasses out of the firebox and thru the cat at a sufficient rate. Open the primary air control, draft increases, and problem solved. Of course, then you're producing more heat than you want. My solution to this problem was to install a 6" insulated flue in my masonry chimney, but I won't be able to tell you how well that worked until October.


 
Joful,

So sounds like your fix for backpuffing is to increase the draw. As the Cat acts as somewhat of a slight  restriction or resistannce to flow  if there isnt a good draw from the flue. Then gases build up in the stove and can ignite inside of firebox. 

I think the smaller 6" diameter should speedup the velocity as well as it being insulated as a warmer flue should have more draw as warmer gases will rise better and maybe rise faster.


----------



## fire_man

Huntindog1 said:


> Joful,
> 
> So sounds like your fix for backpuffing is to increase the draw. As the Cat acts as somewhat of a slight restriction or resistannce to flow if there isnt a good draw from the flue. Then gases build up in the stove and can ignite inside of firebox.
> 
> I think the smaller 6" diameter should speedup the velocity as well as it being insulated as a warmer flue should have more draw as warmer gases will rise better and maybe rise faster.


 

You also have to make sure the small hole in the bottom of the stove near the glass is not covered with ash. It's meant to provide some air at low burns to prevent backpuffing.


----------



## rdust

fire_man said:


> rdust:
> 
> Can you post your flue setup? Exterior/lined/insulated?? I'm trying to figure out relationships with this stove between the flue setups and how well their stove runs



Flue is inside for first floor(shared wall between family room and living room) then runs along a second floor wall through the attic with a few feet above the roof line.  I have 27' of liner down a masonry chimney, I used pour insulation from chimney liner depot.  The pipe inside is double wall pipe, one 90 to get me into the wall and another 90 from the liner T.  At some point I may change the 90 inside to two 45's but it seems to work fine for now.


----------



## fire_man

rdust said:


> Flue is inside for first floor(shared wall between family room and living room) then runs along a second floor wall through the attic with a few feet above the roof line. I have 27' of liner down a masonry chimney, I used pour insulation from chimney liner depot. The pipe inside is double wall pipe, one 90 to get me into the wall and another 90 from the liner T. At some point I may change the 90 inside to two 45's but it seems to work fine for now.


 

Sounds like you did not kid around and have a great setup.


----------



## rideau

mliiiwit said:


> I stand by my posts. Their aspersions aren't contributing to the forum.


 
I think you are being a little hard on mliiiwit....you don't want to treat him as you are suggesting he is treating others. 

I had pretty much the same reaction he did to a few posts, and feel that he does address some problems that did exist in the posts. 

I chose to address them in a different way...by detailing my results and answering questions.  Waulie has done a great job of doing that also..he started it, I followed him.  A good number of others who are heating with PHs are posting their comments, experiences, insights, opinions and concerns on both these threads.  All of us who are heating with PHs will benefit from this, and there will be people who are contemplating new stoves who will get enough information from these posting to know whether the PH is the stove for them.

So I do agree, it is a good idea to put yourself in the place of the person to whom you are responding before you write a post.


----------



## mliiiwit

BrowningBAR said:


> They are legitimate questions and statements. Yours, on the other hand, are insulting and condescending. If you have constructive information regarding the stove, post it.


 
No, their questions and statements were not legitimate.

Yes, I intentionally included some insults to reflect the tone of their posts.  Additionally, your couple of posts on the first page also carried a negative slant toward the PH.  So I must wonder if the three of you are not conspiring together.  You posted:

Maybe not a gimmick, but the benefits are in doubt.

Why would you doubt the benefits?  The PH tested as the most efficient stove ever.  The catalytic and secondary burn ensure it achieves the cleanest burn in all modes of operation.  Both technologies have their benefit and the PH combines them.

And:  Just make it a straight cat stove and those burn times would jump.

The PH _can _be operated in cat mode only.  So what is your basis for this statement?

I do not see in your signature or in any of your posts that you are operating a PH, so why are you even chiming in with negative posts or defending others who are doing the same?  Please review all of my posts.  You will find that I have never posted anything negative about a product I have no experience with.

If anyone has anything negative about any product to share, I have no problem with that as long as it is based on their personal experience and is presented objectively.  Negative opinions not based on personal experience do not belong in a thread such as this.

I believe I included a fair amount of constructive information in my previous 2 posts on this thread.  If you're too blinded by whatever motivation you have to see that. that's your problem, not mine or that of anyone else.

If anyone would like more information on the PH or how to operate it, I will gladly share what I've learned with mine.


I have no problem with anyone posting opinions in a thread requesting objective information.  But that is not what certified and highbeam did.

If a member replies to a post, they owe it to all other members to read and fully understand the post they are replying to.

If a member wishes to post their opinions, they need to simply state their opinions and not represent them as facts.


----------



## rdust

mliiiwit said:


> The PH _can _be operated in cat mode only. So what is your basis for this statement?


 
The basis of this is just about every owner has posted if the secondaries start lighting off they will continue to light off even with the air closed down. If that wasn't the case why would Woodstock explain on their web-site how to obtain a low/overnight burn?

From their site: "*Low & Overnight Burning*
_These instructions are intended as a guide to operating your wood stove. Your timing_
_and final damper settings will vary depending on chimney draft, type of wood, moisture_
_content of the wood and size of the splits. The Progress Hybrid is simply designed and_
_intended to be user friendly, but it will take some practice to get used to it._

_1. Before you open the loading door, you must fully open the catalytic bypass and the air_
_damper. Wait a minute or so for a strong draft to be established to prevent smoke from_
_spilling back into the room._
_2. Stir up the hot coals. If necessary, excess ash should be removed before reloading the_
_firebox. If your stove has the optional ash pan, simply rake the hot coals back and forth_
_in the firebox to allow the loose ash to fall through the grate into the ash pan. If your stove does not have an ash pan,_
_push the hot coals to one side and shovel the loose ash into a non-combustible ash container with a tight fitting lid._
_Dispose of the ash properly._
_Never put an ash container on a combustible surface, like a wood floor._
_3. Place several small splits on top of the hot coals and allow them to ignite._
_4. Load the firebox to capacity leaving space for secondary combustion, with a mix of larger and smaller splits. Close_
_the loading door._
_5. Adjust the air damper to its lowest setting by rotating the lever toward the loading door._
_6. Close the catalytic bypass, by turning the handle counter-clockwise until it stops._
_7. Initially the fire may appear to die out. This may cause a small amount of soot to collect on the glass. Any buildup on_
_the glass should go away with higher temperature burns."_

*If* it operated just like any other cat stove they would just tell you start a fire just like any other fire and turn the air down for a low cat type burn when you wanted to achieve that mode. Instead they have to tell you to load the stove to capacity, turn the damper to the lowest setting and close the cat bypass. This is done so the secondaries don't have a chance to light off. One of my concerns would be how do I get a low burn on the same load of wood I used to warm up the house with after being away all day. If I have a long day and my inside temps aren't where I want them I may have to burn hot for an hour or so to restore temps then I turn the stove down to low for the long haul. If I have to dampen it down right from the start without ever letting the stove burn on high(per their site) how do I warm up the house before setting in for the long haul?



mliiiwit said:


> If anyone would like more information on the PH or how to operate it, I will gladly share what I've learned with mine.


 
Yes, please do this. I think this would be much more effective than the current course of telling everyone they're wrong to form an opinion since they haven't operated the stove.


----------



## rideau

rdust said:


> The basis of this is just about every owner has posted if the secondaries start lighting off they will continue to light off even with the air closed down. If that wasn't the case why would Woodstock explain on their web-site how to obtain a low/overnight burn?
> 
> From their site: "*Low & Overnight Burning*
> _These instructions are intended as a guide to operating your wood stove. Your timing_
> _and final damper settings will vary depending on chimney draft, type of wood, moisture_
> _content of the wood and size of the splits. The Progress Hybrid is simply designed and_
> _intended to be user friendly, but it will take some practice to get used to it._
> 
> _1. Before you open the loading door, you must fully open the catalytic bypass and the air_
> _damper. Wait a minute or so for a strong draft to be established to prevent smoke from_
> _spilling back into the room._
> _2. Stir up the hot coals. If necessary, excess ash should be removed before reloading the_
> _firebox. If your stove has the optional ash pan, simply rake the hot coals back and forth_
> _in the firebox to allow the loose ash to fall through the grate into the ash pan. If your stove does not have an ash pan,_
> _push the hot coals to one side and shovel the loose ash into a non-combustible ash container with a tight fitting lid._
> _Dispose of the ash properly._
> _Never put an ash container on a combustible surface, like a wood floor._
> _3. Place several small splits on top of the hot coals and allow them to ignite._
> _4. Load the firebox to capacity leaving space for secondary combustion, with a mix of larger and smaller splits. Close_
> _the loading door._
> _5. Adjust the air damper to its lowest setting by rotating the lever toward the loading door._
> _6. Close the catalytic bypass, by turning the handle counter-clockwise until it stops._
> _7. Initially the fire may appear to die out. This may cause a small amount of soot to collect on the glass. Any buildup on_
> _the glass should go away with higher temperature burns."_
> 
> *If* it operated just like any other cat stove they would just tell you start a fire just like any other fire and turn the air down for a low cat type burn when you wanted to achieve that mode. Instead they have to tell you to load the stove to capacity, turn the damper to the lowest setting and close the cat bypass. This is done so the secondaries don't have a chance to light off. One of my concerns would be how do I get a low burn on the same load of wood I used to warm up the house with after being away all day. If I have a long day and my inside temps aren't where I want them I may have to burn hot for an hour or so to restore temps then I turn the stove down to low for the long haul. If I have to dampen it down right from the start without ever letting the stove burn on high(per their site) how do I warm up the house before setting in for the long haul?
> 
> This isn't a problem with the PH.  I don't think people who have not burned with one have any idea the amount of heat they put out.  If you were to be away for 12 or more hours, you would still find your home toasty warm when you got home, if you had left a near full load
> in the firebox and set the stove for a long slow burn.  With this stove running 24/7, there is never a need to warm up the home...it is warm.
> 
> And I do believe your discussion about the Woodstock advice on getting a long cat burn, versus your explanation of how every other stove gets a long cat burn, is scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for problems.  Basically it is incredibly easy to get a long cat burn:
> Open damper and bypass
> Rake your coals to the front, load your stove full in the same manner you do for every fire (or to what ever capacity you want),
> Wood engages, close air all the way, close bypass.
> Walk away.
> End of story for at least 12 hours.
> 
> No adjusting of air, no waiting around and watching the fire.
> 
> That simplicity is what made me comment in an earlier post that, although I initially kept records of amount of wood burned, burn times, stove top temps, etc., I quickly lost interest because it was so darn easy to use this stove and so boringly repetitive to record everything.
> 
> And I believe you have an exaggerated idea aof the "problem" PH owners have with the secondaries.  When one first got the new stove, there was a learning curve because it lights much more easily and quickly than the Fireview (my previous stove).  And Woodstock didn't have the above description of how to start the fire in their original manual, probably because they knew how to get a long burn and didn't realize they'd have to tell us newbies to the PH...anyway, a quick call to Woodstock about the secondaries, and one was given the above directions, end of problem with the secondaries.  So, it is easy to get the secondaries going great guns.  IF you leave the bypass open and the air quite open for too long.  Even when you do that, you don't get horrendously high stove top temps...lots of heat comes out the front window.  And it is easy to get back to cat mode only, if you wish to, by shutting the air down.
> 
> If you light the stove in the conventional manner, at a time when you have hot coals, and it is really cold out (at least 10 below zero say),
> and you want more heat from the stove per hour, you can simply leave the air somewhat more open and the stove will automatically switch between catalytic and secondary burning depending on which will give you a better burn at the given moment.  Nothing you have to do other than load your fire and adjust the air for the amount of heat you want out of the stove.  The stove does the rest.  The time between reloads varies, obviously, depending on how much wood you put in the firebox, and how open you have the air .  For me, 3/4 full firebox  (if that) and closed air gives me 16 hours easily.  30 Below out, air pretty open and lots of heat coming out of the stove, 1/2 to 3/4 load, I may reload in 6 to 8 hours...However, if I'm going to be away from the home for 12 hours, the place will still be pretty comfortable even on really cold days if I leave the stove set for a slow burn.  Open the air when you get home, and it does take long to raise the temp in the living area by 4 to 6 degrees..guessing 15-20 minutes max.
> 
> You could not get me to even consider a different stove...unless maybe Woodstock's new stove which has not been unveiled has an oven in it or on it...
> 
> It really is that simple, if you have a good draft and reasonably dry wood.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, please do this. I think this would be much more effective than the current course of telling everyone they're wrong to form an opinion since they haven't operated the stove.


----------



## chipsoflyin

This technique may eventually work, but in my situation a lot of black smoke would go up the stack before the cat would light. When the cat was brand new it would definitely work.


----------



## Huntindog1

Has anyone used a manual pipe damper as an extra level of control. As I am sure there are some flues that have more draw than others.

Could the manual pipe damper be used to drop the temps in the stove down below the level that secondaries fire and low enough level to just have cat operation. Then open the damper back up.


----------



## rideau

chipsoflyin said:


> This technique may eventually work, but in my situation a lot of black smoke would go up the stack before the cat would light. When the cat was brand new it would definitely work.


 
Interesting.  No black smoke for me.  You get black smoke even when loaded on hot coals?  Have you talked with Woodstock?  Maybe your cat isn't functioning properly.  I know some people have had to replace their cats, and understand  Woodstock has worked with the cat company to improve or modify the cat...


----------



## rideau

Huntindog1 said:


> Has anyone used a manual pipe damper as an extra level of control. As I am sure there are some flues that have more draw than others.
> 
> Could the manual pipe damper be used to drop the temps in the stove down below the level that secondaries fire and low enough level to just have cat operation. Then open the damper back up.


 

I have an incredible draft.  The first two weeks i had this stove I considered getting a damper...even spoke with Woodstock about it...but the above technique took care of any issues.  I don't need a damper.  Close the air, secondaries soon go out and cat takes over...if I want the secondaries out. 

I was initially worried because one cannot completely cut off the air to the PH by closing the air inlet, and I was worried about what would happen if I got a really hot stovetop and wnted to cool things down.  My Fireview got hotter than I liked a few times in the past.  But that has never developed as an issue with this stove.  I've never had near 600 on the stove top, even with a really active fire.  I believe this is because with the slanted fireback so much heat comes out the window....it doesn't seem to build up as much in the stove....


----------



## Todd 2

This is some good reading, please keep the PH threads going for I have one on order. There must be alot of people ordering these stoves that are not on this site because when I ordered mine ( first of September ) the gave me a middle of November delivery date due to over volume of orders for the PH, interesting ! Reading about the chimney set ups is great cause that will be a ??? for me when I install it. My PE summit does a good job but more heat for less wood sounds better, plus I have a buyer for my Summit. Shoulder season 16-20-25-30 hr. plus burns are not as important to me here in Ohio cause here the weather don't have as much shoulder season as further north. But when it does get cold 35 deg. to low teens for Dec. Jan. Feb. I want a stove I can fill every 10-12 hrs and throws alot of heat, not just break the chill but 75 + in side for the three cold months, 24-7 burning then. A really close to 3 q.ft. fire box ( like my PE ) but almost 2 X the mass of my PE has to do something better for more btu's during the 24-7 burn times like when my steel stove is still burning but cooling down those last 3 to 4 hrs of the heat cycle. that mass seems like its gotta make a difference ? Hot btu's more even between load times and easy on wood, I hope Im not asking for to much more than my Summit stove does, but its gonna be very interesting having owned this one and trying something totally different. Cant wait to get it and play, 6 month money back was the deal maker choosing either a BK or a big cast stove or this PH. keep the threads going people, Good Stuff !
This new stove on order is more exciting than a brand new truck, it would just wind up with wood dents anyways.


----------



## chipsoflyin

rideau said:


> Interesting.  No black smoke for me.  You get black smoke even when loaded on hot coals?  Have you talked with Woodstock?  Maybe your cat isn't functioning properly.  I know some people have had to replace their cats, and understand  Woodstock has worked with the cat company to improve or modify the cat...



At the tail end of a burn cycle, the stove has cooled to the point where the cat won't be active on reload. Even with hot coals I need time to get the heat back up so the cat fires off. If not the cat will remained stalled. The cat is working although not as good as when new. Are the improved cat available or are they still working on them?


----------



## rdust

rideau said:


> This isn't a problem with the PH. I don't think people who have not burned with one have any idea the amount of heat they put out. If you were to be away for 12 or more hours, you would still find your home toasty warm when you got home, if you had left a near full load
> in the firebox and set the stove for a long slow burn. With this stove running 24/7, there is never a need to warm up the home...it is warm.
> 
> And I do believe your discussion about the Woodstock advice on getting a long cat burn, versus your explanation of how every other stove gets a long cat burn, is scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for problems. Basically it is incredibly easy to get a long cat burn:
> Open damper and bypass
> Rake your coals to the front, load your stove full in the same manner you do for every fire (or to what ever capacity you want),
> Wood engages, close air all the way, close bypass.
> Walk away.
> End of story for at least 12 hours.
> 
> No adjusting of air, no waiting around and watching the fire.
> 
> That simplicity is what made me comment in an earlier post that, although I initially kept records of amount of wood burned, burn times, stove top temps, etc., I quickly lost interest because it was so darn easy to use this stove and so boringly repetitive to record everything.
> 
> And I believe you have an exaggerated idea aof the "problem" PH owners have with the secondaries. When one first got the new stove, there was a learning curve because it lights much more easily and quickly than the Fireview (my previous stove). And Woodstock didn't have the above description of how to start the fire in their original manual, probably because they knew how to get a long burn and didn't realize they'd have to tell us newbies to the PH...anyway, a quick call to Woodstock about the secondaries, and one was given the above directions, end of problem with the secondaries. So, it is easy to get the secondaries going great guns. IF you leave the bypass open and the air quite open for too long. Even when you do that, you don't get horrendously high stove top temps...lots of heat comes out the front window. And it is easy to get back to cat mode only, if you wish to, by shutting the air down.
> 
> If you light the stove in the conventional manner, at a time when you have hot coals, and it is really cold out (at least 10 below zero say),
> and you want more heat from the stove per hour, you can simply leave the air somewhat more open and the stove will automatically switch between catalytic and secondary burning depending on which will give you a better burn at the given moment. Nothing you have to do other than load your fire and adjust the air for the amount of heat you want out of the stove. The stove does the rest. The time between reloads varies, obviously, depending on how much wood you put in the firebox, and how open you have the air . For me, 3/4 full firebox (if that) and closed air gives me 16 hours easily. 30 Below out, air pretty open and lots of heat coming out of the stove, 1/2 to 3/4 load, I may reload in 6 to 8 hours...However, if I'm going to be away from the home for 12 hours, the place will still be pretty comfortable even on really cold days if I leave the stove set for a slow burn. Open the air when you get home, and it does take long to raise the temp in the living area by 4 to 6 degrees..guessing 15-20 minutes max.
> 
> You could not get me to even consider a different stove...unless maybe Woodstock's new stove which has not been unveiled has an oven in it or on it...
> 
> It really is that simple, if you have a good draft and reasonably dry wood.


 
I never said it was a "problem" that the stove acted this way, just that it doesn't operate like a traditional cat stove.  No where did I attack the stove, I posted what the manufacture already has on their site.  I still think using this method long term is going to mess up the cat but only time will tell us that.  To me the stove is still just a secondary type stove with a cat to clean up the left overs.  This isn't a problem and it's obviously really clean burning due to this.  In my *opinion*  it's just not the stove for someone looking for stove that acts like a traditional cat.   

I think I'll step away from this thread now, I don't want to ruffle anymore feathers.


----------



## fire_man

rdust said:


> To me the stove is still just a secondary type stove with a cat to clean up the left overs. In my *opinion* it's just not the stove for someone looking for stove that acts like a traditional cat.


 
I filled my Progress 1/3 full from a cold star today - then got it hot, shut the air completely, and the secondaries NEVER FIRED. It burned 100% in cat mode - stovetop climbed to about 400 F before peaking. Very Happy.


----------



## mliiiwit

rdust said:


> The basis of this is just about every owner has posted if the secondaries start lighting off they will continue to light off even with the air closed down. If that wasn't the case why would Woodstock explain on their web-site how to obtain a low/overnight burn?
> 
> From their site: "*Low & Overnight Burning*
> _These instructions are intended as a guide to operating your wood stove. Your timing_
> _and final damper settings will vary depending on chimney draft, type of wood, moisture_
> _content of the wood and size of the splits. The Progress Hybrid is simply designed and_
> _intended to be user friendly, but it will take some practice to get used to it._
> 
> _1. Before you open the loading door, you must fully open the catalytic bypass and the air_
> _damper. Wait a minute or so for a strong draft to be established to prevent smoke from_
> _spilling back into the room._
> _2. Stir up the hot coals. If necessary, excess ash should be removed before reloading the_
> _firebox. If your stove has the optional ash pan, simply rake the hot coals back and forth_
> _in the firebox to allow the loose ash to fall through the grate into the ash pan. If your stove does not have an ash pan,_
> _push the hot coals to one side and shovel the loose ash into a non-combustible ash container with a tight fitting lid._
> _Dispose of the ash properly._
> _Never put an ash container on a combustible surface, like a wood floor._
> _3. Place several small splits on top of the hot coals and allow them to ignite._
> _4. Load the firebox to capacity leaving space for secondary combustion, with a mix of larger and smaller splits. Close_
> _the loading door._
> _5. Adjust the air damper to its lowest setting by rotating the lever toward the loading door._
> _6. Close the catalytic bypass, by turning the handle counter-clockwise until it stops._
> _7. Initially the fire may appear to die out. This may cause a small amount of soot to collect on the glass. Any buildup on_
> _the glass should go away with higher temperature burns."_
> 
> *If* it operated just like any other cat stove they would just tell you start a fire just like any other fire and turn the air down for a low cat type burn when you wanted to achieve that mode. Instead they have to tell you to load the stove to capacity, turn the damper to the lowest setting and close the cat bypass. This is done so the secondaries don't have a chance to light off. One of my concerns would be how do I get a low burn on the same load of wood I used to warm up the house with after being away all day. If I have a long day and my inside temps aren't where I want them I may have to burn hot for an hour or so to restore temps then I turn the stove down to low for the long haul. If I have to dampen it down right from the start without ever letting the stove burn on high(per their site) how do I warm up the house before setting in for the long haul?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, please do this. I think this would be much more effective than the current course of telling everyone they're wrong to form an opinion since they haven't operated the stove.


 
Please read my post from February regarding dark cat mode operation - link below.  The draft control must be rotated to full horizontal, i.e. the draft plate is fully closed.  On my PH the draft control hits a bit of resistance before closing completely and if left at this position the secondaries will remain active.  If I apply a bit more force, the draft will rotate to full horizontal and the secondaries will go out in a few minutes.  If my stove burns hot in this mode, there will be an occasional back puff as others have mentioned.  I have not found the back puffing to be a concern.  Additionally, this mode is dirty for the firebox but when I cleaned my flue this spring there was maybe a 1/4 cup of ash.  I have a top vent and there was actually more debris in the stove at the bottom of the vent than there was in the flue.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-woodstock-progress-method-for-a-slow-burn.78746/#post-1075756


----------



## Waulie

fire_man said:


> I filled my Progress 1/3 full from a cold star today - then got it hot, shut the air completely, and the secondaries NEVER FIRED. It burned 100% in cat mode - stovetop climbed to about 400 F before peaking. Very Happy.


 
Nice Tony!

I've been doing this for the last couple weeks.  I find even when loading on hot coals I can burn about a 60% load with basically no secondaries.  The main reason I'm not concerned about cat only mode with a full firebox is because I can get a 12 hour all cat burn with a 60% load and 12 hours works great for me.  If I need more heat, I put more wood in, but I can run 12 hour cycles with a little heat or a ton of heat.  Works for me!

I almost never run completely closed, but very close.  My "low" setting is to completely close the draft then just notch it open the tiniest bit.


----------



## rideau

mliiiwit said:


> Please read my post from February regarding dark cat mode operation - link below. The draft control must be rotated to full horizontal, i.e. the draft plate is fully closed. On my PH the draft control hits a bit of resistance before closing completely and if left at this position the secondaries will remain active. If I apply a bit more force, the draft will rotate to full horizontal and the secondaries will go out in a few minutes. If my stove burns hot in this mode, there will be an occasional back puff as others have mentioned. I have not found the back puffing to be a concern. Additionally, this mode is dirty for the firebox but when I cleaned my flue this spring there was maybe a 1/4 cup of ash. I have a top vent and there was actually more debris in the stove at the bottom of the vent than there was in the flue.
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-woodstock-progress-method-for-a-slow-burn.78746/#post-1075756


 
Same finding re ash for me, essentially.


----------



## Ashful

fire_man said:


> You also have to make sure the small hole in the bottom of the stove near the glass is not covered with ash. It's meant to provide some air at low burns to prevent backpuffing.



What small hole near the glass?  I've been over and thru this stove, and have never seen it.


----------



## Todd

fire_man said:


> I filled my Progress 1/3 full from a cold star today - then got it hot, shut the air completely, and the secondaries NEVER FIRED. It burned 100% in cat mode - stovetop climbed to about 400 F before peaking. Very Happy.


 


Waulie said:


> Nice Tony!
> 
> I've been doing this for the last couple weeks. I find even when loading on hot coals I can burn about a 60% load with basically no secondaries. The main reason I'm not concerned about cat only mode with a full firebox is because I can get a 12 hour all cat burn with a 60% load and 12 hours works great for me. If I need more heat, I put more wood in, but I can run 12 hour cycles with a little heat or a ton of heat. Works for me!
> 
> I almost never run completely closed, but very close. My "low" setting is to completely close the draft then just notch it open the tiniest bit.


 
Nothing wrong with that, most people would be very pleased to get consistant 12 hour burns especially if you could maintain those 12 hour burns no matter the weather.


----------



## fire_man

Joful said:


> What small hole near the glass? I've been over and thru this stove, and have never seen it.


 

Look exactly in the center between the two steel log posts. Its at the bottom of the vertical wall just before it hits the base. There is a 1/8" hole - it can become covered if the ashes get too deep.


----------



## Ashful

fire_man said:


> Look exactly in the center between the two steel log posts. Its at the bottom of the vertical wall just before it hits the base. There is a 1/8" hole - it can become covered if the ashes get too deep.


 
I think you must be talking about a Woodstock Progress, not my stove!


----------



## Waulie

Joful said:


> I think you must be talking about a Woodstock Progress, not my stove!


 
Dude, you asked!


----------



## Ashful

Waulie said:


> Dude, you asked!



Nope... Read back further.  Simple misunderstanding.


----------



## Ashful

Waulie said:


> Dude, you asked!



Nope... Read back further.  Simple misunderstanding.


----------



## fire_man

Joful said:


> Nope... Read back further. Simple misunderstanding.


  I thought Joful was talking about the Progess - but I guess he was talking about a Jotul.


----------



## rideau

fire_man said:


> I thought Joful was talking about the Progess - but I guess he was talking about a Jotul.


 The response was helpful.  I'll locate that air source and try to keep it free of ash...I have seen the tendrils of flame coming up from it, but only vaguely worried about covering it....seems from the description of exactly where it is as if it may be hard to NOT cover it if there is any deent ash bed....


----------



## fire_man

It takes a pretty deep layer of ash, but the hole does get covered. On a side note:

I WANT IT TO GET COLD SO I CAN START BURNING!!

(sorry I'm shouting )


----------



## BrowningBAR

fire_man said:


> It takes a pretty deep layer of ash, but the hole does get covered. On a side note:
> 
> I WANT IT TO GET COLD SO I CAN START BURNING!!
> 
> (sorry I'm shouting )


 
I'M MORE THAN HAPPY TO WAIT ANOTHER THREE MONTHS! ! !


----------



## pfd286

I have had mine a bit over a week.  It burns clean, hot and evenly.  My chimne has been lined w/ a true 6" round liner with thermix insulation around it so the chimney drafts well but the stove should probably have a 7" flue collar instead of a 6".  even with the damper open thre is quite a 'path' the smoke needs to travel to get into the flue and I dont think a 6" is quite enough draft.


----------



## rideau

kingquad said:


> Woodstock (along with Englander) have the best customer service in the business. Call them and talk to them directly. They will treat you great and that treatment will continue post purchase. They have a BBQ every fall and give great discounts on their stoves there. Lots of board members show up. Looks like a great time.
> 
> The Progress is a new stove with new technology. It's gonna take a couple seasons before people really get it dialed in. Initial reports are that it's a great stove. I personally wish it was cat only, but it's still on my radar for my new house.


 Don't understand why people think they would prefer it to be cat only.  Had a Woodstock cat.  Have the PH.  It is easier to use and more efficient than the FIreview, which is saying a lot.  There is absolutely NO reason I can imagine to prefer this stove be straight cat.


----------



## Huntindog1

I think some are looking for more burn time. I my self think 16 hours is plenty.

But some are away from home longer periods of time and need the longer burn times.

The idea is the extra air getting in from the secondaries are shortening the burn time.


----------



## Todd

rideau said:


> Don't understand why people think they would prefer it to be cat only.  Had a Woodstock cat.  Have the PH.  It is easier to use and more efficient than the FIreview, which is saying a lot.  There is absolutely NO reason I can imagine to prefer this stove be straight cat.



Personal preference. If it were a straight cat I think it would burn longer at a lower output which is what I want for shoulder season burns. I want to fill a stove up full and control the output with the air control, not regulate by the amount of wood in the box. For some people it's not that big of a deal and they are fine with a 12 hour or less loading schedule but I want more.


----------



## rideau

You are looking to get from the PH something that it is not designed to do.  The design is optimized to give the most heat most efficiently for the heating of a larger home in a colder climate. 
Seems to me that what you would really like is for Woodstock to design a stove that would be optimized for the larger home in a warmer climate. 
The PH would not the exceptional stove that it is for my climate if it were not a hybrid.


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## Machria

Is it possible, and/or OK to run this stove (the Progress) without ever closing the bypass?   In otherwords, can you burn it as a "non-cat" stove indefinitely?  An example would be if you have some bad wood or something, and don't want to run it thru the cat.

Is it ok to do this, you would loose some of the efficiency obviosuly.... but is it ok to do..?


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> Is it possible, and/or OK to run this stove (the Progress) without ever closing the bypass? In otherwords, can you burn it as a "non-cat" stove indefinitely? An example would be if you have some bad wood or something, and don't want to run it thru the cat.
> 
> Is it ok to do this, you would loose some of the efficiency obviosuly.... but is it ok to do..?


That is an interesting question. Normally, when it comes to a standard cat stove, the answer is no. But I am interested in the answer to this. I think the answer is still no since the open damper would still prevent the secondary burn from operating properly. But, I do not know.


----------



## Slow1

Machria said:


> Is it possible, and/or OK to run this stove (the Progress) without ever closing the bypass? In otherwords, can you burn it as a "non-cat" stove indefinitely? An example would be if you have some bad wood or something, and don't want to run it thru the cat.
> 
> Is it ok to do this, you would loose some of the efficiency obviosuly.... but is it ok to do..?


 

Obviously you COULD do it, but I don't think it would get you the results you desire...

From my understanding there would be no benefit to doing this in any case.  Woodstock has done extensive testing even with some very poor quality wood (read this as wet/green) and found that the PH can consume it even if it doesn't do well with it.

Now, you CAN kill your cat burning paint, treated lumber and other things of that sort (plastics and whatnot) but you shouldn't be burning that anyway even in a non-cat stove.


----------



## Todd

rideau said:


> You are looking to get from the PH something that it is not designed to do. The design is optimized to give the most heat most efficiently for the heating of a larger home in a colder climate.
> Seems to me that what you would really like is for Woodstock to design a stove that would be optimized for the larger home in a warmer climate.
> The PH would not the exceptional stove that it is for my climate if it were not a hybrid.


 
No what I want is the flexibility of either or in one stove.


----------



## Waulie

Machria said:


> Is it possible, and/or OK to run this stove (the Progress) without ever closing the bypass? In otherwords, can you burn it as a "non-cat" stove indefinitely? An example would be if you have some bad wood or something, and don't want to run it thru the cat.
> 
> Is it ok to do this, you would loose some of the efficiency obviosuly.... but is it ok to do..?


 
I've played with this.  Yes, you can do it.  But, and this is important, you can only do it with smaller loads of wood.  The reason is that closing the bypass is what really reduces your draft for a good cruise burn.  You could risk overfire with a large load and not closing the bypass.  Now, if you had really wet wood this might be a way to get it to burn.  But, you already know better than to try and use wet wood.  Really, no reason for it.


----------



## Machria

Here's a few more questions for the Progress Hybrid:

1.  This one really goes for any cat stove;  What happens if you don't open the bypass when lighting a new fire?    So the stove is cold, and your running the smoke thru the cat, does it get damaged/clogged...?   Or does it just not burn the smoke....?      AND, along the same lines, what happens at the end of a burn cycle?  The bypass is closed but the temp of the fire/stove is going down quick....what happens to the cat?

2.  With a normal fire going strong, can you boil water on top of the soapstone?  Or is it not hot enough, and you must put a pot on the cook top by lifting the stone?

3.  Since we are on subject of it's cooktop, any pics of the new cooktop?  The website only shows drawings of it?  How about a few pics!

4.  Anyone on Long Island have one?    Would love to see one in person.....


----------



## Ashful

My experience is the same as Waulie's... a cat stove in bypass could be a bit difficult to control with the bypass open and a large load in the stove. I think there's good reason they tell you to only do your first small load in bypass, and then engage the damper as you add medium and larger splits. Do you have a specific interest in running the stove in bypass?

Since there's an interest in cooking on it, there are several nice cookstoves out there, some of them looking more like woodstoves than cookstoves. All of the newer EPA certified units I've seen are non-cat, and many of the dedicated cookstoves have the advantage of being able to cook while throwing a lot less heat into the room than a standard woodstove. Esse comes to mind as a starting point, although they're likely not the best option for your particular situation.



Machria said:


> 1. This one really goes for any cat stove; What happens if you don't open the bypass when lighting a new fire? So the stove is cold, and your running the smoke thru the cat, does it get damaged/clogged...? Or does it just not burn the smoke....? AND, along the same lines, what happens at the end of a burn cycle? The bypass is closed but the temp of the fire/stove is going down quick....what happens to the cat?


 
I can answer this one, as I almost daily forget to open the bypass when starting a new fire. As soon as you light the paper, you'll notice the smoke blowing back in your face, instead of going up the chimney. So, in short, there's no way to forget... you will light your match, put it to the paper, and then immediately realize it's time to open the bypass damper.


----------



## Waulie

Machria said:


> Here's a few more questions for the Progress Hybrid:
> 
> 1. This one really goes for any cat stove; What happens if you don't open the bypass when lighting a new fire? So the stove is cold, and your running the smoke thru the cat, does it get damaged/clogged...? Or does it just not burn the smoke....? AND, along the same lines, what happens at the end of a burn cycle? The bypass is closed but the temp of the fire/stove is going down quick....what happens to the cat?
> 
> 2. With a normal fire going strong, can you boil water on top of the soapstone? Or is it not hot enough, and you must put a pot on the cook top by lifting the stone?
> 
> 3. Since we are on subject of it's cooktop, any pics of the new cooktop? The website only shows drawings of it? How about a few pics!
> 
> 4. Anyone on Long Island have one? Would love to see one in person.....


 
1.  If you don't of forget the open the bypass when trying to light a new fire, you'll know it.  At least with the Progress, you will not have adequate draft with the bypass closed and will likely get significant smoke spillage.  I'm not sure if it would damage the cat but it could clog it over time.  At the end of the burn cycle, there is no more smoke left to burn so the cat will eventually go out.  No harm done.

2.  I'm not sure about boiling water on the soapstone.  I would guess that you could if you had the right size pan (large surface area) and a hot enough stove.  Water will boil very fast in the center burner of the cooktop.  I am surprised at how fast.

3.


----------



## Machria

Thanks!


----------



## Machria

Can any of you with the PH estimate how much radiant heat is thrown off the front of the unit.  If your sitting 5 feet in front of it, would you be baked?  Same if you are 10 feet, too hot?   I know it's a very subjective question, but guestimate it, what's your feeling.

Also, what do you NOT like about your PH?  There has to be things you don't like, what are they?


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> Can any of you with the PH estimate how much radiant heat is thrown off the front of the unit. If your sitting 5 feet in front of it, would you be baked? Same if you are 10 feet, too hot? I know it's a very subjective question, but guestimate it, what's your feeling.


 
That is hard to say. As an example, the Heritage that I ran felt completely different in my living room than the Heritage my in-laws run in their den. A lot of it depends on how well the room holds heat, air flow, insulation, etc. The same stove can feel completely different in different settings.


----------



## Cessna

Machria said:


> Can any of you with the PH estimate how much radiant heat is thrown off the front of the unit. If your sitting 5 feet in front of it, would you be baked? Same if you are 10 feet, too hot? I know it's a very subjective question, but guestimate it, what's your feeling.
> 
> Also, what do you NOT like about your PH? There has to be things you don't like, what are they?


Great questions Marchria!!  I've been wondering the same things! 

Also, was wondering how much fire there is when running with the air closed, full or half load, for long burn??


----------



## fire_man

Machria said:


> Can any of you with the PH estimate how much radiant heat is thrown off the front of the unit. If your sitting 5 feet in front of it, would you be baked? Same if you are 10 feet, too hot? I know it's a very subjective question, but guestimate it, what's your feeling.
> 
> Also, what do you NOT like about your PH? There has to be things you don't like, what are they?


 
Great Questions! let me first answer what I do NOT like about the stove, then in a couple hours when my stove starts cranking some heat I will answer the others.

Most of what I did not like about this stove has been resolved by insulating the flue.

1. I did not like the smoke baffle plate that prevented smoke spillage into the room because it hindered loading the stove to the top of the firebox. Removing the plate increased smoke spillage. Insulating the flue eliminated spillage even without the plate installed.

2. I did not like reinstalling the screens after cleaning them. WS has a retrofit that now makes screen replacement simple.

3. I did not like the sluggish cat performance especially in warmer (>50F) weather. Cat is no longer sluggish since I insulated the flue.

4. I hated starting fires in the stove from a cold start because the fire would take FOREVER to get established in warmer weather. Since insulating the flue the fire takes right off.

5. I hated how expensive it was to hire movers to carry in this 700 pound beast, but my herniated spine was grateful to them.

6. I don't like the door latch, it's not easily adjustable.

7. I don't like the lever that engages the cat. It's impossible to tell if its open or closed without sticking your eyeballs 1" from the engraved writing. It needs some white paint on it.

I'll add more complaints if I think of them.

8. With air setting fully closed, assuming the stove is starting with a new load of wood, there are no flames for about 30 minutes, and then secondaries start firing. Opening 1/4 of the way increases flame activity significantly once the secondaries kick in. 1/2 way open is a raging inferno. Full open - I think I would melt the stove down to China.

9. Five feet directly in front of a hot stove (burning hard for couple hours with Cottonwood) I feel a very warm and noticeable glow. My 11 year old daughter and 1.5 year old Labrador Retriever (See avatar) like to sit about 2 feet in front of the stove. That's too hot for me and I yell at them to move back. 10 feet back it's just a slight warm glow that you can barely feel but it's there. Once I load some Oak and let that burn for a while, things will get even warmer at those distances, but still very comfortable at 5 feet and 10 feet (too hot at 2 feet).


----------



## Machria

BrowningBAR said:


> That is hard to say. As an example, the Heritage that I ran felt completely different in my living room than the Heritage my in-laws run in their den. A lot of it depends on how well the room holds heat, air flow, insulation, etc. The same stove can feel completely different in different settings.


 
All that is understood. But I'm not looking for how much heat it puts out.... I'm looking for the "direct radiant heat" it puts out. Maybe that is not the correct wording...? But what I mean is, the heat that hits you in the face from the fire. If I stand 3' in front of my regular old fireplace with a raging fire (glass open, just a screen), it actually burns you if you stay to long. At 5' it is very warm, but you can stand it for a while. At 10', you barely feel it, until the enitre room starts heating up a bit, and then you just get a little warmth from it. So on a really cold day, you really need to be pretty close to it to get real heat from the "radiant" part of the heat.

So how would you describe what you feel standing in front of the Progress with a strong fire going, at it's "normal" temp (400 or so?) on a cold day? I know it's a really difficult question to answer, it's subjective, the surroundings certianly affect it...  but if 5 people describe it from there experience, we/I can get kind of an average, or feeling of it...


----------



## Machria

fire_man said:


> Most of what I did not like about this stove has been resolved *by insulating the flue*.


 
Thanks  Fire man, very helpful!

So what did that entail? do you mean the flue pipe as it exits the stove, or do you mean the entire pipe all the way up? What type of pipe do/did you have?


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> All that is understood. But I'm not looking for how much heat it puts out.... I'm looking for the "direct radiant heat" it puts out. Maybe that is not the correct wording...? But what I mean is, the heat that hits you in the face from the fire. If I stand 3' in front of my regular old fireplace with a raging fire (glass open, just a screen), it actually burns you if you stay to long. At 5' it is very warm, but you can stand it for a while. At 10', you barely feel it, until the enitre room starts heating up a bit, and then you just get a little warmth from it. So on a really cold day, you really need to be pretty close to it to get real heat from the "radiant" part of the heat.


 
What I am saying is that sitting next to the Heritage in my living room felt completely difference than sitting next to the Heritage in my in-laws home.


----------



## fire_man

Machria said:


> Thanks Fire man, very helpful!
> 
> So what did that entail? do you mean the flue pipe as it exits the stove, or do you mean the entire pipe all the way up? What type of pipe do/did you have?


 
I originally had a 15 foot rigid uninsulated liner that I wrapped with 1" of Olympia Superwrap. The entire length is wrapped. there is a short 2 foot section of flex pipe attached to the "T" that is also wrapped. It was not hard to wrap, just a blanket rolled onto the pipe held on with a stainless steel mesh screen.


----------



## Waulie

Machria said:


> Can any of you with the PH estimate how much radiant heat is thrown off the front of the unit. If your sitting 5 feet in front of it, would you be baked? Same if you are 10 feet, too hot? I know it's a very subjective question, but guestimate it, what's your feeling.
> 
> Also, what do you NOT like about your PH? There has to be things you don't like, what are they?


 
The large window really does kick out a lot of radiant heat when the stove is cranking. I wouldn't sit 5 feet directly in front of it for long periods of time. I do often find myself kneeling down right in front of the window for a couple minutes at a time. It makes me feel like an iguana in the Costa Rican sun. That said, you can sit a bit to the side and be fine. One of our dining room chairs is about 5 feet from the side of the stove and is a great seat! Not too hot. Certainly, at 10 feet directly in front you'll be fine but warm. I'm lying on the couch about 13 feet from the stove right now and it feels perfect! This is all very subjective, of course.

Since Woodstock fixed the screen design, I really don't have any big dislikes. I'm not a big fan of the smoke spillage out of the open door in warm temps, but this is really a function of my chimney. This stove does require the proper chimney. Like Tony mentioned, the smoke baffle does make loading the last split in a little tough. I very rarely need that last split though. I'll try to think of other dislikes. Oh wait, a very minor one that just popped into my head is that closing the bypass is a little loud. It's kind of a metal on metal sound that isn't the most pleasant. That's all I can think of right now.


----------



## Slow1

fire_man said:


> 7. I don't like the lever that engages the cat. It's impossible to tell if its open or closed without sticking your eyeballs 1" from the engraved writing. It needs some white paint on it.


 
I wonder if perhaps the design was changed or something - on my PH it is easy to tell as when the cat is open the lever is not level, rather it sits at about 30*, when it is closed it is level.  Now, granted I could not fully open or close it but I don't know why I'd do that so if I'm standing back looking at the stove and see the level lever then I know it is closed, if it is not level then the cat is open.

I'd have to concur with your #6 - having to pay out the tail to hire movers to bring this stove into the house, but I too am glad I did it as they obviously knew what they were doing and nobody got hurt.

I think I'm still too new with this stove to be annoyed by much.  I am surprised at the amount of clicking it makes during warm up (compared to the FV which I don't recall much at all), but once it is cruising it doesn't seem to do that anymore so I'm not ready to put that into the 'annoyance' category.

As to feeling the radiant heat - when burning it hot I can feel it from 10' away pretty easily.  Most of the time, however, I've only been burning small loads with the air almost fully closed so what I feel is the very gently 'morning sun' feeling whenever in sight of the stove.

Flame - with it in a very low burn (air set to full closed position) I get gently blueish flames to no flames on and off.  Add a bit of air and I get steady flames dancing above and around the wood.  Take air up more and it progresses into fire jets out the holes in the top to full out box filled with flames that you just can't tell easily what sort of patterns they have - just massive flames filling the box throwing heat.


----------



## greenbrierwv

my stove room is about 22x12ft and is southern exposed with an all glass southern wall and sits on tile mortared to 6 inches of concrete all sitting on top of a very large amount of gravel.  This is the "sun room" on the back of the house.  I can comfortably sit 10 foot in front of it, as i am right now, and feel comfortably warm.  4-5 feet directly in front would be too close for me.  The nice thing about this stove is it seems to really distribute the heat in an even fashion, and seems to slowly do this so that the house seems to maintain a more even temperature throughout.  i guess this is where the soapstone really shines in comparison to my previous experiences with cast iron and steel stoves.  I also think my stove sitting on such a large amount of thermal mass including tile/concrete/gravel, only contributes to this evenness and enhances its performance/efficiency (restarted a fire this eve on adequate coals after 18hrs of burn time.  The whole idea is to increase thermal mass, which soapstone does and does well.  In combination with my active solar air and water heating systems, this stove for my size house (well insulated 2000sq ft, not open floor plan) is a very nice fit.


----------



## fire_man

Slow1 said:


> I wonder if perhaps the design was changed or something - on my PH it is easy to tell as when the cat is open the lever is not level, rather it sits at about 30*, when it is closed it is level. Now, granted I could not fully open or close it but I don't know why I'd do that so if I'm standing back looking at the stove and see the level lever then I know it is closed, if it is not level then the cat is open.


 

On my Progress, the lever is perfectly level when open or closed. They must have made a design change. The original lever (prototype and EPA test unit) pulled and pushed into the stove, but it had binding problems.


----------



## Machria

Awesome stuff....!


----------



## chipsoflyin

fire_man said:


> I originally had a 15 foot rigid uninsulated liner that I wrapped with 1" of Olympia Superwrap. The entire length is wrapped. there is a short 2 foot section of flex pipe attached to the "T" that is also wrapped. It was not hard to wrap, just a blanket rolled onto the pipe held on with a stainless steel mesh screen.


 
fireman, you may want to check operation of the bypass lever with the top off. I have one of the early ones too and the lever rotates past horizontal to 30 degrees.


----------



## Ashful

BrowningBAR said:


> What I am saying is that sitting next to the Heritage in my living room felt completely difference than sitting next to the Heritage in my in-laws home.


 
Mothers-in-law have been known to bring the temperature of any room down a good 5 - 7 degrees.  It's a scientific fact.


----------



## rideau

I find the air and bypass levers very easy. Horizontal - closed. Vertical - open. My bypass handle rotates slightly more than vertical - about 30 degrees beyond, for a total of about 120 degrees.
My handle made a really wierd noise last week. Woodstock told me to loosen the allen head screws in either end of the handle, open the top of the stove, make sure the bypass was closed, and then tighten the screws.
They are designing a new method of fastening the bypass handle....
The smoke baffle is not an issue for me...I seldom load the stove that full. Get a huge amount of heat with the stove 3/4 full. Wish the door was about an inch wider. I load the back, then the front, then the middle,
Inconal screen has been redesigned, so not an issue on a new stove.
Have not had to adjust the handle. Fireview was easy to adjust.
Have an interior double wall ICC chimney, and have excellent draft, extremely easy starts, no problem with smoke. If you have an issue with smoke, you could try opening air all the way for a minute, opening bypass, then after a minuite closing draft before opening door. Should have a good strong draft going, an is you shut the primary air after establishing a good draft, it may pull air in through the door and keep a good draft going that way. If you do this: (a) open door AS SOON AS you close draft./ (b) remember to open draft AS SOON AS you close door.
WHAT I DON'T LIKE ABOUT THE STOVE:
No one wants to go to bed, including house guests. Everyone wants to sit in front of the fire, then sleep downstairs in front of the fire. If anyone in your household likes to sunbathe, I guarantee they'll sleep in front of this stove.
It doesn't have an oven 
HEAT: I have a severely handicapped brother who used to get dangerously close to the Fireview, because it was toasty warm, but my house was not always, because the FIreview wasn't big enough for my large home. With the Progress HYbrid, the home is so comfortably and uniformly heated that he ignores the stove.
When people come in from a cold day, theny stand in front of the window to get warm. That usually lasts about a minutes...then they back away from the hearth and either lie down on the sheepskin rug, about three feet from the stove or sit on the chairs or sofa.....semicirclular placement about 9-12 feet from the stove. One is warm, but not boiling hot.
Love the stove.
Addendum:  One can sit quite close to the stove as long as not directly in front of the window.  We have a chair placed to the side, just past the side clearance recommendation.  Very comfortable.


----------



## Waulie

chipsoflyin said:


> fireman, you may want to check operation of the bypass lever with the top off. I have one of the early ones too and the lever rotates past horizontal to 30 degrees.


 
Yeah, check it out Tony.  I have an early stove too that rotates passed horizontal.  This is how I tell if it's open or closed at a glance.  Neat discussion, BTW.  Interesting the things people notice and don't notice.


----------



## Machria

Good stuff, thanks rideau!  

I'm about to order one of these....   just doing some math/drawings on where it will end up in the corner with the clearence, my exising tile...


----------



## Machria

*FYI:* I did a drawing of my "proposed install using MS Visio. I'm doing a corner install basically. Well, after drawing up per clearances listed, I found my diagram did not match up with what the Progress install manual was saying for the distance between the corner and the front of the hearth. After contacting Woodstock, they concluded there was a small error in the install manual. They measured wrong, I think because of the "cut off corners" on the stove. They measured the 12" rear corner clearances as if the stove was a rectagle. But the corners cut off about 2" on each side, which lets you get the stove a bit closer to eash side wall when doing a corner install. This ended up making about a 6" difference in the distance from the corner of wall to the front of the hearth pad. The manual states the distance from the corner to the front of the hearth pad is 69.25", but in fact it is 63.25". And if you add the ash lip, it drops by 4 more inches to just 59.25". That's 10 inches less than the install manual states it requires. They said they will put out a revision to manual....

Anyway, I ordered one today. Done deal!


----------



## fire_man

Waulie said:


> Yeah, check it out Tony. I have an early stove too that rotates passed horizontal. This is how I tell if it's open or closed at a glance. Neat discussion, BTW. Interesting the things people notice and don't notice.


 

Mine rotates past level when the bypass door is open but it's really just linkage slop. I never considered it a lever "setting". The bypass door is fully opened whether the lever is level or rotated slightly. It's just a minor annoyance after being used to the fully up or fully down FV lever.


----------



## Todd 2

Machria said:


> *FYI:* I did a drawing of my "proposed install using MS Visio. I'm doing a corner install basically. Well, after drawing up per clearances listed, I found my diagram did not match up with what the Progress install manual was saying for the distance between the corner and the front of the hearth. After contacting Woodstock, they concluded there was a small error in the install manual. They measured wrong, I think because of the "cut off corners" on the stove. They measured the 12" rear corner clearances as if the stove was a rectagle. But the corners cut off about 2" on each side, which lets you get the stove a bit closer to eash side wall when doing a corner install. This ended up making about a 6" different to the distance from the corner to the front of the hearth pad. The manual states the distance from the corner to the front of the hearth pad is 69.25", but in fact it is 63.25". And if you add the ash lip, it drops by 4 more inches to just 59.25". That's 10 inches less than the install manual states it requires. They said they will put out a revision to manual....
> 
> Anyway, I ordered one today. Done deal!


Been following this thread all along, these guys sure do help with picking a stove, glad to see you have made your choice Machria, I would have liked to give a little input too on the PH but mine wont be here till next week. (almost a 2 month wait) Im sure ready for it, new insulated liner an all. 
Mark another one up for the hybrid stone stove guys 
That was my only choice over the BK because I like to view the flame, plus 6 month trial is hard to beat.
Good Luck & nice choice,  How long to get one now ?     Todd 2


----------



## Highbeam

Machria said:


> Anyway, I ordered one today. Done deal!


 
Congratulations. Now you can start thinking about the chimney and hearth construction.


----------



## Machria

Todd 2 said:


> Good Luck & nice choice, How long to get one now ? Todd 2


 
Thanks.  You waited 2 months?  WOW!!  I ordered this morning, and they shipped it this afternoon, will be here tomorrow!

.

.

Just kidding!!         Gave me a rough date of 3rd week in Dec.  Not too bad,5 weeks away.  I can't rip out the current fireplace till after Turkey day (having folks over...).  Then I have time to get the new chimney installed, and stone installed (putting stone on hearth and walls...).


----------



## mliiiwit

Machria said:


> Can any of you with the PH estimate how much radiant heat is thrown off the front of the unit. If your sitting 5 feet in front of it, would you be baked? Same if you are 10 feet, too hot? I know it's a very subjective question, but guestimate it, what's your feeling.
> 
> Also, what do you NOT like about your PH? There has to be things you don't like, what are they?


 
Buy one now and try it for the remainder of the heating season (I suspect if you order now, your delivery date will be near or after the end of the year, but this is based on my 6 week delivery time a year ago and not on any current information).  If you don't like it, return it for a full refund.  How can you beat that for a guarantee?  Yes, you will incur some expense and / or effort on the install, but what a great protection on a major investment.

BTW, responding to your post got me curious about other's experience with the Woodstock return & refund process.  I wasn't able to find a relevant thread, so created one.  You might want to watch it.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/woodstock-stove-returned-for-refund.94537/


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## Machria

mliiiwit said:


> Buy one now and try it for the remainder of the heating season


 
Read my post just before yours.  Already ordered one.


----------



## Waulie

fire_man said:


> Mine rotates past level when the bypass door is open but it's really just linkage slop. I never considered it a lever "setting". The bypass door is fully opened whether the lever is level or rotated slightly. It's just a minor annoyance after being used to the fully up or fully down FV lever.


 
Yes, the bypass is open either way.  But, if you just turn it all the way passed open when you open it, then you will know at a glance if it's open or closed.  Not sure if they did that on purpose or it was a lucky linkage slop.


----------



## Cessna

Todd 2 said:


> Been following this thread all along, these guys sure do help with picking a stove, glad to see you have made your choice Machria, I would have liked to give a little input too on the PH but mine wont be here till next week. (almost a 2 month wait) Im sure ready for it, new insulated liner an all.
> Mark another one up for the hybrid stone stove guys
> That was my only choice over the BK because I like to view the flame, plus 6 month trial is hard to beat.
> Good Luck & nice choice, How long to get one now ? Todd 2


DITTO Todd 2!!  Rideau and Dennis (back woods savage) have been very helpful.  Waulie's posts too!.  Appreciate every PH owner's feedback!  Can't wait to build this spring and buy the PH next fall.


----------



## Machria

Would it be possible (enough space, safe....) to try this on a Progress under the cooktop..?    I'd love to be able to bake potatoes on/in it!      Has anyone ever tried it....?

This one something I liked on the Jotul Rangley...


----------



## Waulie

Machria said:


> Would it be possible (enough space, safe....) to try this on a Progress under the cooktop..? I'd love to be able to bake potatoes on/in it! Has anyone ever tried it....?
> 
> This one something I liked on the Jotul Rangley...


 
No, there isn't much room in there.  You could probably shove a potato or two in there, but the cat would likely torch them!  Baking on top should work great though (Dutch Oven style), though I haven't experimented with that myself yet.


----------



## rideau

Last year, before there was a cooktop associated with the PH, I was already doing all my cooking on the stove.  I cooked potatoes by wrapping them in foil and building a little oven around them with pieces of soapstone I acquired from Woodstock...just leaned pieces on each other.  They roasted well, and were the tastiest potatoes I ever ate...almost tasted candied.  You can still roast on the soapstone if the stove is hot enough, or can cook in cookware on the cast iron.  I have the feeling that the soapstone top is not quite as hot at the same stove temp as the top was prior to the cat iron cooktop.  Don't know if there has been any testing of this. 
If I want more immediate heat and less extended radiation, I frequently leave the soapstone top up and just let the cast iron top radiate heat into the room. 

I've been cooking  alot of soups recently.  make the recipes as I go, but think I remember most of them.  They have all turned out well.  Will try to get the time to write them down and start a recipe thread soon...hopefully this weekend.


----------



## Waulie

rideau said:


> I have the feeling that the soapstone top is not quite as hot at the same stove temp as the top was prior to the cat iron cooktop.


 
I believe you are correct, Rideau.  I'm seeing about 50 degrees cooler on top with the cooktop.


----------



## ddddddden

Another approach is to use a clay pot inside the firebox during the coaling stage (tail end) of the fire.
My mother used to put foil-wrapped potatoes inside broken terra cotta plant pots. Yum! 

Some members have done pizza on a pizza stone inside the firebox during the coaling stage. . .


----------



## Slow1

ddddddden said:


> Some members have done pizza on a pizza stone inside the firebox during the coaling stage. . .


 
I suppose those would have to be smaller "personal size" pizzas to fit through my door


----------



## Waulie

Slow1 said:


> I suppose those would have to be smaller "personal size" pizzas to fit through my door


 
You could just do a long, rectangle pizza.  Now you've got me wondering if a cookie sheet would fit through there on a diagnal.


----------



## ddddddden

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pizza-in-the-woodstove-update.67172/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/got-wood-for-stove-n-some-for-pizza.70885/

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/first-attempt-home-made-pizza.74295/


----------



## rideau

Waulie, How are you going to keep the food from falling off when you pt the sheet in on a diagonal?  And, if you put the sheet in first, then the  food on the sheet, how are you going to get the stuff out?  Sounds like way too much trouble and not a great idea.  I have considered putting a cast iron fry pan in, for steak, bur figure I'd get grease splatter all over inside the stove and possibly on the glass, and it just isn't worth the possible mess to me.  Corn or potatoes etc in foil or similar clay I could see.  One wants to be really careful  with burn safety if cooking within the stove.  Be sure you have good arm protection, and good tools to get the foods in and out of the stove.  Cast iron is going to be really hot  if it is in the stove.  For the most part I am going to stick to stove top.  And try to get an oven made for the top of the stove.  Should be able to bake anything on te top if we can get soapstone open boxes made, which we can reverse on top of the cooktop to make an oen.  I do have ceramic and clay that I could use to try to m ake an oven.  I have used large roasting pans for this purpose....successfully.


----------



## Waulie

Yeah I know, Rideau.  It was more of a thought experiment than anything.  I was envisioning putting a pizza made on a cookie sheet through the door on a diagnal over just some coals.  Don't know if I'll ever actually try it though.

I agree an oven top would be pretty easy.  A soapstone box with a hinged cast door in front that sits on the cooktop sounds like a winner to me.


----------



## fire_man

I think we need a permanent thread titled "Cooking recipes for the Woodstock Progress Hybrid" and the star chefs will be Waulie and rideau!


----------



## Machria

Can you guys post some pics of your PH stoves!! I'm looking for ideas on what color / type stone to install... I would love to see some *pics of installs*, as well as some* pics of the PH stove loaded with wood,* and burning.

POST PICS! 


Lastly, what size rooms are your PH's installed in??


----------



## fire_man

Mine is in there somewhere!

http://www.woodstove.com/owner-photos


----------



## HollowHill

fire_man said:


> Mine is in there somewhere!
> 
> http://www.woodstove.com/owner-photos


so's mine!


----------



## rideau

Mine too.


----------



## Machria

How many of you guys have the outside air installed?


----------



## doug60

_I do _


----------



## Ashful

Usually this is only worth consideration if your house is exceptionally tight or small.  I'd get the stove installed first, and determine if you need it, the test for which is as simple as opening and closing a window while burning.


----------



## Machria

Joful said:


> Usually this is only worth consideration if your house is exceptionally tight or small. I'd get the stove installed first, and determine if you need it, the test for which is as simple as opening and closing a window while burning.


 
The reason I ask, I found that I have a "fresh air" intake going to the fireplace that I have installed now, and it goes down into the floor and out the side of the house between the joicing.  When I rip this up, and pull most of the floor up, I will have access to this 4" vent pipe.  I don't plan on hooking up the fresh air, but since I'm in there and have it, I'm wondering if I should bring that vent up to the floor with a false cover in the floor over it...  so if I do want to use it someday, I can easily just plug a pipe into it and go up to the stove inlet....


----------



## Ashful

I would definitely do that.  You never know if you might need it, and it's already there...


----------



## Machria

Joful said:


> I would definitely do that. You never know if you might need it, and it's already there...


 
Yea, kind of a no brainer really. 

PS- Woodstock replied and say the install is fine.   Riping open on Friday and starting work!!  If all goes to plan, will be drinking some Moonshine and Black current juice in front of a hot Progress Hybrid by xmas!!


----------



## Ashful

Moonshine on Long Island?  You got a Chris Craft rum runner?


----------



## Machria

Well, I have a boat but it's not a rum runner.  But I do buy this stuff at the local liquor store, add a splash of Black Current juice and it's DELICIOUS!


----------



## Machria

Is this PH Matt Black, or Charcoal?


----------



## ddddddden

Looks like charcoal to me. Black = the Fireview next to the PH.


p.s. Woodstock will paint your stove any color you like, if the paint is available. 

http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=hi-temp-paints


----------



## Machria

ddddddden said:


> Looks like charcoal to me. Black = the Fireview next to the PH.
> 
> p.s. Woodstock will paint your stove any color you like, if the paint is available.
> 
> http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=hi-temp-paints


 
That's what I thought too, but in the beginning it looks darker, like the Black. I ordered mine in black because we have a lot of black in our room (black couch, chairs...), but I think the charcoal looks more "contemporary" because it doesn't highlight the cast iron trim so much. The black creates alot of contrast with the lighter grayish stone, and highlights the cast trim more making it look a bit more colonial. They both looks great and would likely work fine, but I'm just second guessing the color... I picked out a similar graysih/blackish stone to put on the hearth and walls behind it, it's called Silver Slate, which is a semi polished slate. I'm thinking the black will stand out more on the slate, while the charcoal might blend into it too much. So I'm split with the most modern look I can get (charcoal), or have it highlighted/stand out a bit with the Black?

Why so many dang decisions!!


----------



## Waulie

Not that is matters, but I prefer the charcoal to the black.

Did you go through the owners photos section of Woodstock's website?  There are a lot of pics there that might help you decide.  It is a tough choice.


----------



## Machria

Waulie said:


> Not that is matters, but I prefer the charcoal to the black.


 
Me too, but I'm not sure if the charcoal will blend too much with that slate...  no contrast...  ?



Waulie said:


> Did you go through the owners photos section of Woodstock's website? There are a lot of pics there that might help you decide. It is a tough choice.


 
Yes thanks.  But there are not alot of Progresses in there (mostly the Keystones, Fireviews....), AND, there are not alot, if any Black ones in there...  they are also pretty small low-res pics.   What I really need is a fairly high res picof a Black unit.  I have a good charcoal pic but I need a black to print and hold next to the slate sample....


----------



## Slow1

Machria said:


> Yes thanks. But there are not alot of Progresses in there (mostly the Keystones, Fireviews....), AND, there are not alot, if any Black ones in there... they are also pretty small low-res pics. What I really need is a fairly high res picof a Black unit. I have a good charcoal pic but I need a black to print and hold next to the slate sample....


 
I sense a road trip!    take the sample up to NH and settle it there.... ok, so maybe that would take a bit too long from NY, but could be fun if time were not a consideration, heh.

I don't think the paint or stone really is all that different between the stoves - if you find a picture of a FV with black on a slate hearth that matches your configuration it likely should help you visualize things fairly well.

I'm sure that either one will look great though - the fire in the stove will distract the attention and provide sufficient contrast much of the time anyway.


----------



## HollowHill

That's funny, I think the charcoal looks more antique, like the early stoves and the black more modern.  Mine is charcoal and I picked a ceramic tile that mimicked slate.  The charcoal blends into the slate tile, which I like because the ash pan blends in and is less noticeable.  I like the silver slate tile a lot that you've picked out.  I think the black would look very sharp with it.  But I love the charcoal, so I don't think you can go wrong.


----------



## Machria

Slow1 said:


> I sense a road trip!  take the sample up to NH and settle it there.... ok, so maybe that would take a bit too long from NY, but could be fun if time were not a consideration, heh.


 
I would LOVE to get up there in person...  but just too long a trip for 15 minutes of a "color swatch".   After all, I've got a Stove install to prepare for!   

But I will likely visit in Jan/Feb on way to/from skiiing..  I want to get a matching soap countertop made....


----------



## Machria

HollowHill said:


> That's funny, I think the charcoal looks more antique, like the early stoves and the black more modern. Mine is charcoal and I picked a ceramic tile that mimicked slate. The charcoal blends into the slate tile, which I like because the ash pan blends in and is less noticeable. I like the silver slate tile a lot that you've picked out. I think the black would look very sharp with it. But I love the charcoal, so I don't think you can go wrong.


 
Interesting you see it in reverse than me...   what makes you see it that way?  That might help me...

Your pic shows a beige stone?


----------



## HollowHill

Machria said:


> Interesting you see it in reverse than me... what makes you see it that way? That might help me...
> 
> Your pic shows a beige stone?


Nope, the tile is dark bluish-grey with swirls of lighter grey and brick color.  Eighth pic in Owner's Gallery


----------



## HollowHill

And, for what it's worth, the cast in my pic looks much darker in the pic than in real life.  The charcoal is definitely a gray color, not black.


----------



## Machria

HollowHill said:


> Nope, the tile is dark bluish-grey with swirls of lighter grey and brick color. Eighth pic in Owner's Gallery


 Oh, I'm referring to your Avatar pic on here!


----------



## greenbrierwv

Here is mine in black cast iron.  it matches my tile floor.  tile is set on 6 inches of concrete and a large bed of gravel.  all southern exposed windows.


----------



## greenbrierwv

hope this works


----------



## Machria

Thanks for the pic!   That black does look nice, I think I'm sticking with it.


----------



## greenbrierwv

its really a beautiful stove.  i love the soapstone and cast iron contrast.  really looks nice.  you are going to really love the stove.  P.S.  It is extremely heavy, use your brain and ingenuity more than your back.  i moved mine with one other guy, a flatbed dolly/truck thingy, and a ramp i built to bring it up porch steps.  worked well, but for real, this stove is a beast.  but all that weight pays off in efficiency and heat retention.  Im a big fan of thermal mass, and this stove has it!!


----------



## Slow1

greenbrierwv said:


> Im a big fan of thermal mass


 
That sounds like a good T-Shirt slogan to me


----------



## ddddddden

Machria said:


> . . .I think the charcoal looks more "contemporary" because it doesn't highlight the cast iron trim so much. The black creates alot of contrast with the lighter grayish stone, and highlights the cast trim more making it look a bit more colonial. . .


 
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. The trim on the Fireview is more prominent, and I wanted to de-emphasize it. . .went with "charcoal," which is probably not the most accurate description of this color. It's a lighter grey than what I would call charcoal, and to my eye, there's a bit of blue in it that goes very nicely with the blue-ish stone Woodstock uses. However, the paint seems to shift toward greenish grey in different lighting. . .might just be my eye. I think this pic of Todd's Keystone shows the charcoal paint pretty well. The cast iron grill and the black hearth tools provide good reference points.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/cookin-on-the-keystone.94965/#post-1253202

Note that there is a bit of sheen to the paint. I think this is true for all of the colors except flat black. A point raised in previous discussion has been that the black shows dust/ash more than the lighter colors do.




> Why so many dang decisions!!


 
At your request, Woodstock really will use any hi-temp color Forrest makes.  Does that help?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/soapstone/1923326134/

They'll also mail you that color sample card, if you like, but I didn't find it much help in visualizing what the color would look like on the stove. Note that there are colors available not shown on the card. 
http://forrestpaint.com/index.php?page=hi-temp-paints


----------



## Machria

What is the best length to buck wood for the Progress?  I know it says 18-22" in specs....    If you were to cut all new wood for the Progress, what length wood you make it in an ideal world (perfect sized logs....).   I'm about to cut a bunch of "sandy" wood.


----------



## greenbrierwv

id probably cut it to match my saw blade length.  20 inch.  gives a little room for error.


----------



## evilgriff

I really like the look of the Progress Hybrid, it's nicer looking than my Sirocco. Unfortunately it would not have worked for my house, but it is one nice looking stove, that's for sure.


----------



## Slow1

Machria said:


> What is the best length to buck wood for the Progress? I know it says 18-22" in specs.... If you were to cut all new wood for the Progress, what length wood you make it in an ideal world (perfect sized logs....). I'm about to cut a bunch of "sandy" wood.


 
I've been cutting at 21" - ask me in about 3 years how it worked out


----------



## Waulie

Slow1 said:


> I've been cutting at 21" - ask me in about 3 years how it worked out


 
Nice!  I'm excited to try some longer stuff out next year.  I cut all next year's wood to 19" for two reasons. One is I eyeball it and I don't have great eyeballs.  Two is I like larger diameter splits and those things get darn heavy at 22".  Actually, I guess three reasons.  It's working great for me at 16", so I'm not looking for a big change. 

I guess the "perfect" length depends on how you split, how long you have to let it dry, how strong you are, and how much heat you're going to need.


----------



## Slow1

Waulie said:


> Nice! I'm excited to try some longer stuff out next year. I cut all next year's wood to 19" for two reasons. One is I eyeball it and I don't have great eyeballs. Two is I like larger diameter splits and those things get darn heavy at 22". Actually, I guess three reasons. It's working great for me at 16", so I'm not looking for a big change.
> 
> I guess the "perfect" length depends on how you split, how long you have to let it dry, how strong you are, and how much heat you're going to need.


 
All so true - I'm not sure yet how large a diameter to split into for the PH.  My current supply of 15-17" splits about maxes out at 5x5" pieces with the majority of what I'm eyeballing right now looking to be on the order of perhaps 3x4" on average (estimating from across the room).  Certainly it is burning without a problem but I wonder if larger may do better to make it easier to get a longer lower temp burn.  Of course if I want to do 21" then I have to figure a bit smaller may be better for drying out time...


----------



## rdust

Slow1 said:


> Of course if I want to do 21" then I have to figure a bit smaller may be better for drying out time...


 
Yep, oak cut 21 inches and split bigger like 6x6 or 8x8 squares will take a long time.  Heck even at 16 inches it's a solid 3 years stacked in single rows.<sigh>


----------



## Waulie

Slow1 said:


> All so true - I'm not sure yet how large a diameter to split into for the PH. My current supply of 15-17" splits about maxes out at 5x5" pieces with the majority of what I'm eyeballing right now looking to be on the order of perhaps 3x4" on average (estimating from across the room). Certainly it is burning without a problem but I wonder if larger may do better to make it easier to get a longer lower temp burn. Of course if I want to do 21" then I have to figure a bit smaller may be better for drying out time...


 
I really do like large diameter splits as they seem to tame the secondaries and lead to longer burn times.  I probably burn about 70% split of 6" plus (and some as big as 9") with the rest smaller all mixed in the same load.  I do a large split in the back, then the smaller splits in front on the coals I've raked forward, then more large splits on top.  If I'm getting crazy, I'll fill in with smaller splits on top too to get as full as possible, but I rarely get crazy.


----------



## Waulie

rdust said:


> Yep, oak cut 21 inches and split bigger like 6x6 or 8x8 squares will take a long time. Heck even at 16 inches it's a solid 3 years stacked in single rows.<sigh>


 
After all I've read here, I'm either sad or thrilled that I have no oak on my property.


----------



## rdust

Waulie said:


> After all I've read here, I'm either sad or thrilled that I have no oak on my property.


 
  I don't get a ton of it but I have probably 6 cords(give or take) of it at varying points.  My main wood is ash but we all know that's not going to last much longer.  With this BK I've found I could probably heat this place all year with pine if I had to with little effort, I figure if things get dry for my wood scrounging I can always find pine.  I'm sure your PH is about the same since it seems to sip wood at a similar pace.


----------



## Waulie

rdust said:


> I don't get a ton of it but I have probably 6 cords(give or take) of it at varying points. My main wood is ash but we all know that's not going to last much longer. With this BK I've found I could probably heat this place all year with pine if I had to with little effort, I figure if things get dry for my wood scrounging I can always find pine. I'm sure your PH is about the same since it seems to sip wood at a similar pace.


 
I've never really tried anything in the PH lower on the BTU scale than ash.  Now I sound like a snob.    I just have so much ash as well as other hardwoods to deal with, I haven't bothered yet.  As Dennis says, it takes the same amount of work to process the good stuff as the not so good stuff.  So, as long as I have the good stuff...


----------



## Machria

Well, I spent all day Friday and all day today bucking, splitting and stacking wood. Oh, and building a couple new wood racks. Anyone have a new back?

As it turns out, the log splitter defined my lengths. It only handles up to 20", so 16 to 20 it was!



rdust said:


> Yep, oak cut 21 inches and split bigger like 6x6 or 8x8 squares will take a long time. Heck even at 16 inches it's a solid 3 years stacked in single rows.<sigh>


 
3 years? I have and get mostly red oak in my area which I love. It's ver hard, and burns long with a lot of heat. On LI, it dries nicely in 1 season,sometimes if its really green wood, it will take 2 years. But I've never needed 3 years. I tend to split the hell out of my wood though, maybe that's why...?


----------



## rideau

I have a few (very few) oak on my property.  But I'll take Ironwood every day.  Dense, tons of BTUs, dries very quickly, great all round firewood. 

I have a dry cord of sugar maple and ironwood, 20 inches.  Have not started burning it yet.  My thinking is that it may be hard to load the stove full of that stuff.  The door isn't all tht big..may be easier to load 18 inches.  Gives a little wiggle room.  I put in as much wood as I want, then, sometimes, put some real short stuff crosswise just inside the door.   

Agree with Waulie about the size...I like big splits or rounds, but i can't get many of them in the door...two in and there often isn't room to get a third in, so I resort to smaller stuff.


----------



## Machria

rdust said:


> My main wood is ash but we all know that's not going to last much longer.



Why no more ash?


----------



## rdust

Machria said:


> Why no more ash?


 
EAB, can read up on it here.  http://www.emeraldashborer.info/  Not many living/mature ash trees around these parts anymore.


----------



## Ashful

Machria said:


> I have Angela get mostly red oak in my area which I love. It's ver hard, and burns long with a lot of heat. On LI, it dries nicely in 1 season,sometimes if its really green wood, it will take 2 years.


 
Who's Angela, and where can I find a woman to scrounge wood? Second, I was not a believer until this fall. Three years to season oak? Sounded absurd to me. Then I tried burning some 1-year seasoned oak this fall, and it actually just about put my fire out every time I loaded it into the stove! Definitely made cat burning impossible. I'm not far from LI, and our climate is virtually the same, with respect to drying wood.

Right now, I'm burning 9-months seasoned Walnut, which his marginal. I also have some pine, poplar, and cherry the same age, which is burning well. About 9 cords split and stacked as of last weekend, so I'll be in good shape a year or two from now, but struggling with under-seasoned wood until then.


----------



## Machria

Joful said:


> Who's Angela, and where can I find a woman to scrounge wood?


 
"Angela" must be the girl in my dreams as I nurse my body back to health from working with wood all weekend!!        OR, she is my iPads error correcting girlfriend!


----------



## Machria

Anyone ever thought of making something like a 2nd set of Andirons, in the back of the stove so you could set a pizza stone in there on the top of the andirons?   Just let the fire burn down to coals, then set a stone just wider than the door entrance (turn it a bit to fit through the door), then set it down so it rests on top of the front andirons and the "new" back ones.  Now just slide a small rectangular pizza onto the stone and cook a few minuntes in there!!

Maybe I will contact woodstock and see if they could make something?     Maybee something fold down or something?   Make the back of the andirons have a 10" peice of metal that folds up towards the back and locks into place in a horizontal postition to hold the stone?   ?


----------



## Waulie

You could just set the stone right on the coals.  Otherwise, you could fashion some king of bracket that slips behind the firebick in the back of the stove.


----------



## Ashful

Machria said:


> Anyone ever thought of making something like a 2nd set of Andirons, in the back of the stove so you could set a pizza stone in there on the top of the andirons??


 
Yep... tried this several times on an outdoor fireplace with a grill.  The stone shattered during the heat-up cycle, every single time we tried it.  Seems placing a cold stone over an established coal bed is a far cry from inserting it into your oven and slowly heating the stone from all sides equally.


----------



## Waulie

Joful said:


> Yep... tried this several times on an outdoor fireplace with a grill. The stone shattered during the heat-up cycle, every single time we tried it. Seems placing a cold stone over an established coal bed is a far cry from inserting it into your oven and slowly heating the stone from all sides equally.


 
Maybe a soapstone pizza stone?


----------



## Machria

Waulie said:


> Maybe a soapstone pizza stone?


 
Yea, OR a cast iron "stone".  Got to be a material that would hanlde it.  I expect Woodstock to design and implement this into my Stove before shipping it in Dec!


----------



## HollowHill

Waulie said:


> Maybe a soapstone pizza stone?


 
That's been sitting on top of the stove warming up so you won't get the thermal shock???


----------



## greenbrierwv

i like where this thread is going.  seems they could easily make something that slides in their for a pizza or calzone or something.  lodge cast iron makes a pizza "stone" out of cast iron.  i had heard rumor woodstock may be making a oven that sits on top of the stove, but that is only rumor.  i asked.  ha.  imagine baking a pizza during a snow storm with no power with a nice home brewed beer to boot, and house at 70+.  thats living!


----------



## greenbrierwv

Machria said:


> Yea, OR a cast iron "stone". Got to be a material that would hanlde it. I expect Woodstock to design and implement this into my Stove before shipping it in Dec!


 
machria, you are going to love your progress hybrid after that heatilator!!  let us know what you think.  take care


----------



## ddddddden

Machria said:


> "Angela" must be the girl in my dreams as I nurse my body back to health from working with wood all weekend, OR. . .


or your new stove is telling you her name.  
(BK has Alien Technology®.  WS has Elfin Magic™.)


----------



## Machria

greenbrierwv said:


> i like where this thread is going.


 
Me too!!  I WILL make pizze IN the progress!      It's just a matter of how...



greenbrierwv said:


> seems they could easily make something that slides in their for a pizza or calzone or something. lodge cast iron makes a pizza "stone" out of cast iron.


 
Yep, should be VERY easy.   I'm really suprised it has not been done already!?#$?



greenbrierwv said:


> i had heard rumor woodstock may be making a oven that sits on top of the stove, but that is only rumor. i asked. ha.


 
So are you saying you asked woodstock, and they said no, it was just a rumor?



greenbrierwv said:


> imagine baking a pizza during a snow storm with no power with a nice home brewed beer to boot, and house at 70+. thats living!


 
THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!     There is a place in Killington VT, Outback Pizza that has a real, big wood fired pizza masonry oven.  They make some of the best pizza on the planet!  I've driven 5  or 6 hours up to Killington for a slice of that pizza, no kidding!


----------



## Machria

First, Make/get a Pizza shoval that is about 8 3/4" wide by 16" long, with a 24" long handle.  That will allow it to pull in and out pizza's thru the 9" wide door:

Then get/make a Cast Iron flat pizza stone that is about 12" wide by 16" long that just sits on the front andirons, and something in the back to hold it up. You can turn it a bit to get it to fit thru the door and place it on the mounts inside.  Now you can mae an 8" by 14" pizza and easily slide it in and out!

I can already taste it!   I hope somebody at Woodstock is reading this!  Make sure this ships with my stove in Dec!


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## Ashful

Machria said:


> First, Make/get a Pizza shoval that is about 8 3/4" wide by 16" long, with a 24" long handle. That will allow it to pull in and out pizza's thru the 9" wide door:


 
You gonna make 6" pizzas? 4" of sauce and cheese with a 1" crust all 'round? Hardly sounds worth it.


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## Slow1

Joful said:


> You gonna make 6" pizzas? 4" of sauce and cheese with a 1" crust all 'round? Hardly sounds worth it.


 
I do believe he was suggesting an 8" wide by 14" long pizza so that would be 6" of sauce and cheese and ?? with the 1" crust you suggest - leaves about 1/2" clearance on both sides to pull it out the door.  Hey - I get the point, but you know if you are determined to have it that way...

Still, I think I'd like to see a good oven to go on top instead - could have a wider opening and allow baking of bread too.  Stone sides and top, perhaps a metal door in front to make it easier/lighter to open and close.  Take the normal stones off the top so it is just the cooktop, then put the stone oven on there, place a rack inside and with the cooktop running 500*+ that would bake pizzas and bread mighty nice.


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## HollowHill

Slow1 said:


> I do believe he was suggesting an 8" wide by 14" long pizza so that would be 6" of sauce and cheese and ?? with the 1" crust you suggest - leaves about 1/2" clearance on both sides to pull it out the door. Hey - I get the point, but you know if you are determined to have it that way...
> 
> Still, I think I'd like to see a good oven to go on top instead - could have a wider opening and allow baking of bread too. Stone sides and top, perhaps a metal door in front to make it easier/lighter to open and close. Take the normal stones off the top so it is just the cooktop, then put the stone oven on there, place a rack inside and with the cooktop running 500*+ that would bake pizzas and bread mighty nice.


 
+1000


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## Machria

Slow1 said:


> I do believe he was suggesting an 8" wide by 14" long pizza so that would be 6" of sauce and cheese and ?? with the 1" crust you suggest - leaves about 1/2" clearance on both sides to pull it out the door. Hey - I get the point, but you know if you are determined to have it that way...


 
Exactly.  An 8" by 14" pizza is a full size pizza.  I have to dig up some pics of the way I make pizza, similar to "Outback" in VT.  Roll out a thin dough, spread some sauce on it, then pile 6" high fresh spinich (not frozen or cooked, fresh chopped!), then add lots of minced Garlic, onions and black olives, key word: LOTS, then top with motz and then grate some Asiago cheese on top.  Now slide it in for a few minutes.  The big 6 or 7" pile of spinach and cheese all "melts" down to 1/2" thick, and the crust gets crispy with a wood smoke flavor.   SOMEBODY GET ME A SLICE NOW!       Trust me when I tell ya, it WILL be worth it!!   The ideal temp for making pizza is VERY HOT.  810 degrees to be exact.  Hotter is even better...so the stove with some coals going would be perfect.



Slow1 said:


> Still, I think I'd like to see a good oven to go on top instead - could have a wider opening and allow baking of bread too. Stone sides and top, perhaps a metal door in front to make it easier/lighter to open and close. Take the normal stones off the top so it is just the cooktop, then put the stone oven on there, place a rack inside and with the cooktop running 500*+ that would bake pizzas and bread mighty nice.


 
That's also a great idea, but you won't get a smoke flavor or hot enough (810+) for really good pizza.


----------



## Ashful

Machria said:


> The ideal temp for making pizza is VERY HOT. 810 degrees to be exact. Hotter is even better...so the stove with some coals going would be perfect.


 
History channel did a good documentary on pizza, namely NY style vs. that Chicago deep dish crap.  Interviewing all the best shops around NY and Philly, they asked them what temp they ran their ovens at, and no two agreed.  Various shops, all considered the best in their neighborhood, quoted temps from 400F to 1000F.


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## Machria

I saw that.  those folks didn't know what they were talking about!   810!


----------



## chipsoflyin

How bout this, remove the cook top, place a cast/stone oven on top fitted to the existing gasket, open the bypass for smoked flavor, close bypass for regular baking, temp control using damper to control airflow around baking chamber. Opening and closing the stove door could cause thermal shock to the cat.


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## greenbrierwv

i emailed woodstock, the oven for the stove top was rumor.  that lodge griddle could have potential i think.


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## Machria

greenbrierwv said:


> i emailed woodstock, the oven for the stove top was rumor. that lodge griddle could have potential i think.


 
We will need Woodstock to make something to hold the back side of the griddle.  The front will rest on the andirons, so we need something in the back the same height.  Anyone know know iron worker?

Lets start a rumor about the new Woodstock Progress Pizza Rack accessory!


----------



## Ashful

Machria said:


> Me too!! I WILL make pizze IN the progress!  It's just a matter of how...


 
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003UI8B2S/?tag=047-20


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## Machria

Joful said:


> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003UI8B2S/?tag=047-20


 

VERY nice find!  And good timing, Woodstock called me yesterday with an early Xmas gift, my stove is done and shipping!   The last few pieces of slate on my hearth are being cut and put on tomorrow and Friday, so all I have to do now is wait a few days to receive the Progress, and let the thinset and grout cure!    Can't wait to fire it up!

*Does anyone know if Woodstock finished the design on the model PHPSS yet?   * I forgot to ask on the phone call......      Yeah, you know, the *"Progress Hybrid Pizza Stone System* which comes complete with:
- The 12" wide by 15" long Woodstock Pizza Soapstone
- The rear andirons pizza stone support (so the stone can lay on the front and rear andirons suspended above the hot coal bed).
- The aluminum Pizza shoval that fits perfectly horizontially through the Progress Hyrbrid door, with 24" handle

I KNOW it's either done, or just about done by now, right?     

I'll supply the recipe book free of charge for the Woodstock Hybrid Wood Fired Pizza!


----------



## Machria

Ok, question:    Which is better, the Back or Top vent?   I can go either way on my install, which one performs better?


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> Ok, question: Which is better, the Back or Top vent? I can go either way on my install, which one performs better?


Top vent is usually best for a good draft. But, if you don't have any other bends combined with good chimney height, it doesn't matter.

The Encore is rear vented and then straight up about 28'. Drafts great. The 30 is top vented with no bends and 18'. It drafts just fine. The Defiant is top vented, has two 45 bends and then a 90. It drafts very well, and I suspect the 28' high chimney may lead me to put in a pipe damper at some point to control the burn a bit better.


----------



## Machria

Well, my chimney is 12' of tripple wall stainless (10' of that inside an enclosed chase, 2' out top of chase above roof), then it will be 3' of stove pipe to the stove.  So stove top to the cap is exactly 15'.  The cap is a weather/wind cap. 

If I rear vent, it will come out of stove bend 90 and go straight up and out.   

If I Top vent, it will come out of stove, bend slightly (~30?) toward the back, and then bend slightly back forward (30?) to straighten it out and again straight up the rest of the way.

So which way to go?


----------



## macleary2000

Thank you everyone for this long thread. I think it has swayed me from a BK to a PH. Not only do I want high efficiency but I actually want to watch a beautiful fire (apparently unlike some BK folks whose primary focus is long cat burns). A 30 hour long burn time of a BK where you don't see any flame for the vast majority of that time doesn't sound like what my family would want out of a stove. Currently we have a traditional fireplace (a metal free standing open fireplace with no doors) so it's very inefficient, smoky at times, but it produces a big beautiful fire and lots of radiant heat for the short couple of hours it's lit. Then of course all the wood is used up and it stinks up the house especially on a windy day once a downdraft begins. So I want to switch to a woodstove for woodstove benefits but I also still want to watch a beautiful fire with no dirty black glass. From what I read, BK's usually get dirty glass. I have some questions:

1. Let's say you load up your PH and it burns out in 12 hours (and you don't add more fuel). How many of those 12 hours do you have a big fire / visible flames?

2. Why are some people saying they want to get rid of the secondary fire? Isn't that supposed to be a big attraction of a non-cat stove, to see a beautful rolling flame?

3. Hearth Pads. The Woodstock website sells them for $600. Wow! I've done alot of tile work in my bathrooms, rebuilding them from scratch. In my head, I estimate the materials cost for a 4'x5' pad might run around $100-$150, depending on the stone or tile quality you go with. It would also be simple to build (I think). So why the $600 price?

4. Is there a "hearth pad builders guide" thread on hearth.com or external website that gives specs to follow so I can follow code and know what type of materials are suggested/recommended/allowed? Especially so it can hold the heavy weight of a PH and not crack.

The previous homeowner put large black tiles cemented directly to my wood floor so I have a pad now, but it's not built very well so I plan on putting another pad on top of this one (I'll never be able to tear up these tiles without destroying the wood floor underneath), hence my pad building questions. I tried searching the forums but I didn't find anything useful. So pardon my questions if the answer is already posted elsewhere, a kind redirect link would be most helpful if you know it.


----------



## Waulie

macleary2000 said:


> Thank you everyone for this long thread. I think it has swayed me from a BK to a PH. Not only do I want high efficiency but I actually want to watch a beautiful fire (apparently unlike some BK folks whose primary focus is long cat burns). A 30 hour long burn time of a BK where you don't see any flame for the vast majority of that time doesn't sound like what my family would want out of a stove. Currently we have a traditional fireplace (a metal free standing open fireplace with no doors) so it's very inefficient, smoky at times, but it produces a big beautiful fire and lots of radiant heat for the short couple of hours it's lit. Then of course all the wood is used up and it stinks up the house especially on a windy day once a downdraft begins. So I want to switch to a woodstove for woodstove benefits but I also still want to watch a beautiful fire with no dirty black glass. From what I read, BK's usually get dirty glass. I have some questions:
> 
> 1. Let's say you load up your PH and it burns out in 12 hours (and you don't add more fuel). How many of those 12 hours do you have a big fire / visible flames?
> 
> 2. Why are some people saying they want to get rid of the secondary fire? Isn't that supposed to be a big attraction of a non-cat stove, to see a beautful rolling flame?
> 
> 3. Hearth Pads. The Woodstock website sells them for $600. Wow! I've done alot of tile work in my bathrooms, rebuilding them from scratch. In my head, I estimate the materials cost for a 4'x5' pad might run around $100-$150, depending on the stone or tile quality you go with. It would also be simple to build (I think). So why the $600 price?
> 
> 4. Is there a "hearth pad builders guide" thread on hearth.com or external website that gives specs to follow so I can follow code and know what type of materials are suggested/recommended/allowed? Especially so it can hold the heavy weight of a PH and not crack.
> 
> The previous homeowner put large black tiles cemented directly to my wood floor so I have a pad now, but it's not built very well so I plan on putting another pad on top of this one (I'll never be able to tear up these tiles without destroying the wood floor underneath), hence my pad building questions. I tried searching the forums but I didn't find anything useful. So pardon my questions if the answer is already posted elsewhere, a kind redirect link would be most helpful if you know it.


 
I think you've made a good choice.  One thing that concerns me is your comment about your current stove stinking.  What is your chimney situation?  Don't forget, this is the most important thing with any stove.  Pay lots of attention to getting that right.  Other questions, I'll try to answer:

1.  This is extremely variable but I'll give it a shot.  In my experience, if you're going to burn through a full load in 12 hours you're going to get lots of nice flame.  How much all depends on your draft setting.  You can vary it from blow-torch style, gates of hell secondaries to more lazy, ghost like secondaries.  If you really load full, you're likely to get pretty strong secondaries for a while and they will eventually become the more lazy style.  I'd say you could plan on 2 or 3 hours of continuous flames of some kind.  After that, your box may go dark for a bit only to come back to life with more flames for a bit.  This switching back and forth can last several more hours.  At some point, you're going to not have flames.  This non-flame period will likely consist of the majority of the 12 hours but it would in any stove.

2.  Some folks care most about how long a stove can possibly burn.  Being that there is only so much energy in a load of wood, this will matter more to some than others depending on house size, insulation, stove size, etc.  With the Progress, I used to really try to limit the secondaries because I thought I'd be extending my burn times.  Really, now I engage the cat hotter and let the secondaries kick off.  They're awesome to watch and I would rather reload after 12 hours than 14 or 16 or 20 anyway.  Simply answer to your question is yes, it is a big attraction that I enjoy very much.

3.  I'm not sure why they're so expensive and I've never really seen them so I don't even know if they're nice.  I will say I put probably $300 and 16 hours into my hearth so I could see where a retailer would be charging that.    You absolutely need another pad.  The one you have does not have sufficient R-value for the Progress.  You need 0.5" of Durock Nextgen at a minimum under your tile.  Refer to the manual for requirements.

4.  Download the manual off Woodstock's website.  That will have the requirements for size, clearances, and R-value.  Otherwise, just use good construction practices.  I'm sure you could find lots of posts on hearth builds here and elsewhere.  In my opinion, the heavy weight of the Progress is not a special consideration for the hearth itself (assuming proper structural floor support).  Mine is just Durock and tile over my subfloor.  Do check that your floor will support the weight, but if you are unsure with the Progress you should be unsure with any stove as you would want more than a couple hundred pounds of safety factor.


----------



## Machria

macleary2000 said:


> 3. Hearth Pads. The Woodstock website sells them for $600. Wow! I've done alot of tile work in my bathrooms, rebuilding them from scratch. In my head, I estimate the materials cost for a 4'x5' pad might run around $100-$150, depending on the stone or tile quality you go with. It would also be simple to build (I think). So why the $600 price?


 
Not sure where your gettign your materials, but I just re-did my hearth, and although I did the all above it as well,it was MUCH more than $600.   $1,500 for labor for the 1/2 slate install (included the thinset and Durarock for walls and hearth).  $950 for 14 boxes of Silver slate 1/2" stone/tile, $300 to bullnose 3 or 4 boxes of it, about $200 of lumber (2x4's, 3/4" plywood, durarock...).   Wish I could have bought one for $600!


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## rideau

Hi, Macleary2000.

A lot of this is repetative after Waulie's rather complete answer, just slightly diffferent perspective, perhaps.

You will seldom sit in front of the stove for 12 hours watching the flames.  I frequently have the flames go out completely when I close the bypass to engage the cat, which is often about ten minutes after loading.  Then suddenly the fire will flame up and burn beautifully.  This may last for hours, or shift back and forth from glowing coals to wisping ghostly cat flames that beautifully dance around the firebox, to rolling secondaries igniting at the air holes on the top, to just plain active flames.  When the stove was new, I played around with it a lot, and tried all sorts of things, had a lot of fun.  Now I just heat my home, so twice a day take about ten minutes to get a new load going, then don't think about it again until the dog barks once or twice to tell me the stove is cooling down.  Invariably that is 12+ hours later, and it is time for a reload.  Many times during a burn I or others will sit in front of the fire and talk, read, use the computer, have a hot drink, talk on the phone.  Invariably there will be a nice fireshow of one sort or another to enjoy.

The great thing about the PH is that if you want a stunning display you can simply open the air a bit at any time in the burn, and keep it that way as long as you want to enjoy the spectacular show, then dial it back and go about your business, knowing the stove will calm right down.  Even when I am at a stage where there are simply lots of coals in the firebox, and this may well be 10-12 or more hours into the burn cycle, if I open the air I get active flames again. 

Secondary vs cat flames:  Personally, I think the cat flames are more spectacular...they are rather like the Northern Lights, dancing all around the firebox.  They can be stunning, and are ever-changing.  The secondaries are much more consistent and predictable, and generally involve much more fire.  For that reason, people who heat solely with their stove often try to limit the secondary burn as much as possible, and encourage the cat burn, because the wood releases its BTUs more slowly and consistently, and in this stage this stove is capable of producing enough heat to be the sole heat source for a very large well insulated home in even the coldest climates, as long as you can maintain air movement to the various parts of the home.  I personally believe that maintaining a slower burn results in less heat loss up the chimney, but i don't know if others agree with me about that.  On the slowest burn, with air totally closed, secondary air still enters the stove, and you still do get occasional, and sometimes rather protracted, secondary burn.  The stove switches on its own between secondary and cat burn, and sometimes has both simultaneously, depending on which is more efficient at any given point in the burn.  The trick to being able to maintain the long slow burns is to use larger splits....I generally use splits that just fit through the stove door. 

I bought a blue hearthpad from Woodstock about 7 or 8 years ago when I bought my Fireview.  I am now using the same pad for my PH.  It is very attractive, looks new, and was well worth what i paid for it.  Woodstock took care to see that the PH hearth pad requirement was such that those of us with Fireview hearth pads could use the same pad.  That took some tweaking on their part, but, typically, they made the effort.  The pad actually works better for the PH, in my opinion.  Because the PH can be set closer to the wall, there is more hearth protection in front of the window, and the wood floor does not get as hot as it did with the Fireview,  I always keep a sheepskin rug over the front lip of the hearth pad and over the wood floor to the rug beyond, for peace of mind and extra heat protection for the floor...

For me, a good part of the wood burning experience is loving my stove.  That's why I had a Fireview for years, even though it didn't provide enough heat for my large home.  I am so thankful Woodstock designed and built this great PH stove for those of us with larger and/or challenging homes to heat.  It provides amazing heat from a very reasonable amount of wood, is beautiful, and provides beautiful flames which are viewed through a large, clear window.

Welcome to the world of Woodstock, and may you enjoy your soon-to-be-acquired stove in good health for years to come.


----------



## Machria

Well exlplained Rideau! Now that I am an expert in this, since I've been burning the PH for over 24 hours now  I'd say that is dead on for what I have seen so far. Amazing control of the flames.

*Question for Rideau*, how do see the flames from the cat? Aren't the cat flames up in the cat, hidden in the top...? I assumed you could not see them.

*Question for all,* how hot do your walls get behind the stove? Especially if you have a corner install. I'm noticing significant heat on the wall just below the top of the stove (the 3rd tile up, 12" tiles), directly off the top corner of the stove on the wall, which is 12 1/2" away. The specs say 12". Just that one tile on both sides seems a bit hot.


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## HotCoals

Us BK guys can watch a fire anytime we want.
That said the Progress Hybrid  is one nice looking stove.


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## rdust

HotCoals said:


> Us BK guys can watch a fire anytime we want.
> That said the Progress Hybrid is one nice looking stove.


 
Leave it up to one of the BK guys to bring up a BK in a PH thread.(well I doubt you're the first even in this thread)   Since it's been done already I'll add: flames equals wasted wood for me, the half hour flame show I see when warming up is enough for me.


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## doug60

Ive been burning the Progress for about 2 months now. Hasn't been all that  cold though. So the  jury is still out  on its heating  capability's
But  it is a beautiful  piece to look at.  I think I have the  latest changes that wood stock has  made.  12 hour reloads have been the norm.
I had  the cook top fail the dollar bill test so  wood stock sent be  a new one  with a stainless heat shield under it. The shield keeps the center stone about 100 /125 degrees cooler than the  cast iron next to the  flue outlet. I will say it gives a complete burn , nothing  but fine ash  in the ash pan. Its also seems to be easy on wood consumption.  I will update when  the real cold weather sets in.


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## rideau

Cat flames are ethereal and dance all over the firebox.  A lot of the time they are on and then off an instant at a time.  They flare and die.  They can be on continuously but are separate flames, if that makes snese, as opposed to the rather constant rolling secondaries that you can clearly see being ignited by the air holes in the plate.  The Fireview is a cat stove, not hybrid, and one has hours of gorgeous cat flames in the firebox with that stove.  When you see flames dancing, and no fire off the logs, and no obvious flames being fired by the secondary holes, you are most likely looking at cat flames.  They start shortly after the cat is engaged and the startup fire has died down, normally.  They'll be your sole flames until the stove gets hot enough for the secondaries to light.  Cat flames at internal temp about 500, secondary flames when the stove is much hotter. 

What is hot?  Measure the wall temp.  You don't likely have anything to worry about.  The wall can be a lot hotter than our body temperature before it begins to be of any concern.  I don't have a corner install, my stove is pretty darn close to the wall, and I'm amazed how cool the wall is.  It's mild enough behind the stove that I put my Uggs there to dry without any concern for the leather...and they are about two inches max from the stove.  They don't get hot.  On a corner install. perhaps the shield doesn't protect the wall right at the corner, hence the 12 inch clearance requirement.  But I doubt your wall is over, say, 150?  Anyway, measure the temp, and then, after Christmas, check with Woodstock if they have any concern about whatever your heat level is. 

Meanwhile, enjoy the stove over the holidays and don't worry about that tile...certainly isn't hot enough to do any damage in a few days.


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## Waulie

rdust said:


> Leave it up to one of the BK guys to bring up a BK in a PH thread.(well I doubt you're the first even in this thread)  Since it's been done already I'll add: flames equals wasted wood for me, the half hour flame show I see when warming up is enough for me.


 
I wouldn't want to go up against the PH in a fire show battle, that's for sure. If you don't need much heat, then no flames is fine, but efficiency does not go down in the PH with flames so you are most certainly not wasting wood unless you're getting too hot. Smoldering a load of wood for 24 hours when half as much wood in a night fire would have kept you plently warm for the same 24 hour period is also wasting wood.


----------



## rdust

Waulie said:


> I wouldn't want to go up against the PH in a fire show battle, that's for sure. If you don't need much heat, then no flames is fine, but efficiency does not go down in the PH with flames so you are most certainly not wasting wood unless you're getting too hot. Smoldering a load of wood for 24 hours when half as much wood in a night fire would have kept you plently warm for the same 24 hour period is also wasting wood.


 

It's almost January and still haven't burned a cord of wood so I don't think I'm wasting much.  Almost have of that was almost pine and I know you don't burn pine.    I just tapped into my oak and ash not long ago.  It's all silly really it's worse than the chevy vs. ford arguments.  Both stoves seem to do a fine job of heating for almost all their users.


----------



## Waulie

rdust said:


> It's almost January and still haven't burned a cord of wood so I don't think I'm wasting much. Almost have of that was almost pine and I know you don't burn pine.  I just tapped into my oak and ash not long ago. It's all silly really it's worse than the chevy vs. ford arguments. Both stoves seem to do a fine job of heating for almost all their users.


 
Oh yeah, I completely agree.  I was just tallying today, and I still haven't burned a cord either.  Getting close though.  I'll be there this week.  When things like flame = wasted wood get brought up then I have to comment.  Just because you are burning with no flames doesn't mean you're not wasting wood and vice versa.  If you have an efficient stove and are burning it efficiently, you are not wasting wood unless your house is getting too warm.  If someone is not interested in super long smoldering burns and wants a great fireshow, then I think the PH is a great choice.

Burn pine?  Gasp.


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## Machria

rdust said:


> Leave it up to one of the BK guys to bring up a BK in a PH thread.(well I doubt you're the first even in this thread)  Since it's been done already I'll add: flames equals wasted wood for me, the half hour flame show I see when warming up is enough for me.


 
And leave it to ANOTHER BK guy, to comment on another BK guys post, about a BK in a PH thread!


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## fire_man

Machria said:


> And leave it to ANOTHER BK guy, to comment on another BK guys post, about a BK in a PH thread!


 

Even Woodstock stopped comparing Blaze King to the Progress. This chart used to show it.


----------



## Machria

rideau said:


> *Cat flames are ethereal and dance all over the firebox.* A lot of the time they are on and then off an instant at a time. They flare and die. They can be on continuously but are separate flames, if that makes snese, as opposed to the rather constant rolling secondaries that you can clearly see being ignited by the air holes in the plate. The Fireview is a cat stove, not hybrid, and one has hours of gorgeous cat flames in the firebox with that stove. When you see flames dancing, and no fire off the logs, and no obvious flames being fired by the secondary holes, you are most likely looking at cat flames. They start shortly after the cat is engaged and the startup fire has died down, normally. They'll be your sole flames until the stove gets hot enough for the secondaries to light. Cat flames at internal temp about 500, secondary flames when the stove is much hotter.


 
You sure those flames all over the box, mainly coming from the fresh oxygen introduced from the holes in the baffle (aka the secondary air) are not the Secondary flames?  From what I know about a catalytic converters(in cars for example), there burn is normally contained within themselves.  In fact, I don't think they actually even have real flames..... they just glow red/white hot essentially vaporizing anything and everything that passes thru them which in turn generates more heat and keeps them going.  That's why they are self sufficient and do not require any external energy to run other than the energy required to start them since they do need to be real hot in the first place in order to start the process.  Hence, the wait for the stove to be 500+ inside prior to closing the bypass on the PH per instructions for example.  



rideau said:


> *What is hot?* Measure the wall temp. You don't likely have anything to worry about. The wall can be a lot hotter than our body temperature before it begins to be of any concern. I don't have a corner install, my stove is pretty darn close to the wall, and I'm amazed how cool the wall is. It's mild enough behind the stove that I put my Uggs there to dry without any concern for the leather...and they are about two inches max from the stove. They don't get hot. On a corner install. perhaps the shield doesn't protect the wall right at the corner, hence the 12 inch clearance requirement. But I doubt your wall is over, say, 150? Anyway, measure the temp, and then, after Christmas, check with Woodstock if they have any concern about whatever your heat level is.


 


The one tile on the door side (right side in my case), just off the top corner of the stove (3rd 12" tile up from floor) is reaching 140 degrees.  All tiles surrounding that one are 100 or 110 max, and the others behind above and below the stove are a cool 80.  The same tile on the left side, off the left top corner (again 3rd tile up from floor) is reaching 130.

I've got 1/2" slate tiles, 1/4 to 1/2" thinset and 1/2" Durarock Next Gen before the insualation and studs so I'm guessing it's fine.  But I will double check with Woodstock.  One thing I'm thiking is, this polished slate tile does have metalic material in it as I noticed is very slightly (very so slightly!) magnetic if you put a strong magnet against it, you can feel a bit of magnetance (is that a word?).  So I'm wondering of the "metal" in there is attracting a bit of radiant heat...?



rideau said:


> Meanwhile, enjoy the stove over the holidays and don't worry about that tile...certainly isn't hot enough to do any damage in a few days.


 
Oh, I'm enjoying the hell out of it!!  See the PH recipe thread in a minute, I'm about to post my Chile recipe with pics, that I made on the PH today while out cutting and stacking another cord of wood.


----------



## rdust

Waulie said:


> Oh yeah, I completely agree. I was just tallying today, and I still haven't burned a cord either. Getting close though. I'll be there this week.


 
I just did some figuring which I'm sure isn't 100% accurate but pretty close.  24 ft3 of elm, 22 ft3 of pine and 42 ft3 of oak/ash.  I just loaded the garage with a 1/3 cord of oak, ash and a little cherry.  Once that's gone I'll top the cord mark.  Enough side tracking this thread I'm sure we'll have some "how much have you burned" threads coming up soon enough.


----------



## rideau

Machria, You definitely see cat flames in the firebox.  Fireview, for instance, which is a pure cat stove, has lots of the ethereal dancing flames pretty much as soon as the cat in engaged.


----------



## lumbering on

I have a non-cat lopi Leyden and this is only my second month burning. At the end of a burn cycle, for several hours, the wood and Envi-blocks are glowing red hot and the wood appears to be vaporizing instead of burning and I can't see a flame.

This thread has shown me this is normal for a cat stove, but...

Is this normal for a non-cat stove?  I'm just afraid of a smoldering fire dirtying up my chimney? Am I doing it right leaving this happen?


----------



## rideau

lumbering on said:


> I have a non-cat lopi Leyden and this is only my second month burning. At the end of a burn cycle, for several hours, the wood and Envi-blocks are glowing red hot and the wood appears to be vaporizing instead of burning and I can't see a flame.
> 
> This thread has shown me this is normal for a cat stove, but...
> 
> Is this normal for a non-cat stove? I'm just afraid of a smoldering fire dirtying up my chimney? Am I doing it right leaving this happen?


 I wouldn't worry.  You're not getting smoke at that point, and your chimney won't be getting creosote deposits.  You can always open the air a bit to get the coals to brun hotter and faster if you are worried...


----------



## Machria

Do any of you guys load the PH to the brim ever? I've been loading 3 or 4 small/medium splits(mostly small) in each time, and I can then control the burn from an evil devilish roar, down to a no flame smoldering with the air control. What I'm wondering is, what happends when you load it to the brim? Do you still have good control of it? And do you clsoe the door and leave the air open for 10 or 20 minutes to char all the wood....? All this assuming your doing this on a hot bed of coals.

With the amazing amount of heat this thing puts out with a small amount of wood, I must say I'm a bit nervous to load the thing up to the brim, filling all the cracks and letting it rip. I'm wondering if the fact it's so full, with little air space actually helps control the burn by itself....?


----------



## fire_man

Yup I load to the brim all the time - like tonight. I'll load 16" splits to the top then stuff the rest of the space with shorties. The fire behaves perfectly tame. I char the wood for about 5-10 minutes, depending on how hot the stove is before loading.

I have loaded this stove up with bone dry, thinly split Cottonwood, and it still behaves just fine.

I have noticed something Woodstock reported, that if you load TOO little wood, it can be harder to get the Cat to light off.

I still have not loaded it with 22" thickly split wood, It's just not been cold enough yet.


----------



## Slow1

My loads are getting larger each day/week it seems. I don't think I have really stuffed it to the max yet, but I do think I've done some pretty full loads a few times.  I have no problems with control related to the size of the load.  I do think it runs hotter with a full load, but that does generally make sense given the additional surfaces outgassing all at once.  On a large bed of coals with a hot stove (300+ surface) if I do a good size load I shut it down very quickly... as in within a few minutes I have the cat engaged and am bringing the air down to full closed by the 10-15 minute mark in most cases.  I wouldn't want to accidentally let a full stove run wide open!


----------



## doug60

I loaded 90 % this morning on 5 inches of  coals from  a 8  hour  burn last night. Stove top  300 . Loaded &  engaged cat & shut  air  down full closed.  No  flame, cat was doing its thing within minutes, 20 minutes latter  stove top 350.


----------



## greenbrierwv

i load to the brim most every time.  it is easy to control.  like others said, let it char up nice for about 5 or 10 minutes.  I keep my air control at about 1/2 so as to not let it get too out of hand.  if you leave it wide open it will get crazy with the damper open.  once you close it down it is easy to control.  go for it.


----------



## Ashful

fire_man said:


> Even Woodstock stopped comparing Blaze King to the Progress. This chart used to show it.
> 
> View attachment 86210


 
Way off-topic... but I'm confused by that graph.  How does a big cast iron stove like the Jotul Firelight 600 rate so incredibly low on max BTU/hr., while a soapstone stove marketed so strongly for its ability to moderate temperature swings, rates so high on max BTU/hr. for an EPA test load?


----------



## rideau

Joful said:


> Way off-topic... but I'm confused by that graph. How does a big cast iron stove like the Jotul Firelight 600 rate so incredibly low on max BTU/hr., while a soapstone stove marketed so strongly for its ability to moderate temperature swings, rates so high on max BTU/hr. for an EPA test load?


 
Well, the PH is a big soapstone/steel/cast iron stove that weighs something like 700 pounds.  It does burn at a very steady temperature for a long time, and does keep the home very comfortable.  You can feel it start to cool down a few degrees in the last few hours of the burn.  The design of the PH, the combined burn technologies, the air path, the large cat, and the angle of the secondary burn plate combined with the large glass all contribute to the outstanding BTUs produced AND THROWN THROUGH THE WINDOW INTO THE ROOM AS HEAT.  This stove burns every load down to an almost white powder.  Very efficient.   Yes, the soapstone stores and radiates heat, but far more heat is radiated out the window that from the stove itself.  So, alos, when the stove starts to cool down, you feel the difference in the output...still radiating heat through the soapstone, but less heat out the window. 

The PH represents a new technology, and Woodstock worked really hard to produce a fairly small stove that would efficiently heat a large and/or challenging space.  They worked hard to get those BTU's, and succeeded. 

Did you see the graph for the BTUs throughout the burn on the test burn?  Have not seen Jotul's, but I'm sure it is steady like Woodstock's are.  Yours is a great stove, and has lots of mass.


----------



## Machria

rideau said:


> This stove burns every load down to an almost white powder.



Ain't that the truth!  The few times I let the stove burn completely out, mainly with my 1st few small seasoning fires, I thought somebody snuck into my house and cleaned out my stove!   It left me scratching my head.... What the heck?  Where did the ashes and coals go?   I opened the ash pan and it had a dusting it in.  The second time it occurred, no kidding I asked my wife if she cleaned out the stove or something which would be really odd since she won't touch it yet.  It really does burn EVERYTHING.


----------



## Machria

Hey guys,
Other than shuting the air all the way down, what are some of the ways of keeping the heat output as low as possible, and the burn time long on the PH?

Large splits, pack them in with little air..., only load on small coal bed, don't burn/char them very long ....    missing anything?


----------



## Slow1

Machria said:


> Hey guys,
> Other than shuting the air all the way down, what are some of the ways of keeping the heat output as low as possible, and the burn time long on the PH?
> 
> Large splits, pack them in with little air..., only load on small coal bed, don't burn/char them very long .... missing anything?


 
I'm thinking the larger splits may be one of the best things to try as my minimal experimentation seems to indicate this can make a large difference.  Also as odd as it seems, I seem to get better (longer) burns with a larger base of coals at the start.  I'm not sure I can explain why yet, but perhaps it allows for a more rapid cat engagement and shutdown.


----------



## Machria

Do you guys notice a great deal of heat, by far the peak of heat output is around the 3/4 to 7/8ths mark of the burn?  In otherwords, I seem to get the most heat output, actually too much heat output, at toward the end of a burn when there is a large bed of red hot coals burning.  4 or 5 or so inches of red hot cols cover the entire bottom of the stove, all glowing red hot, that seems to be when I get a real blast of heat for an hour or two.  I know since it's near the end of a long burn, the house and room is very wam, everything in the house is warmed up, the stove is warm, the heart stones are all warm, the walls are warm.... so maybe this all explains it?   OR do you all see a rise in output at this stage?


----------



## rideau

Best way to limit heat output is to burn one or two large splits.  Keep your fuel quantity down, split size up, air closed down.  You get a long, slow, low burn.


----------



## Waulie

Like Rideau said, find the right load size that will give you an all cat burn.  It will vary with different setups, but you should be able to put the right amount in for a very long burn, with little heat for 12 hours or so.  Large splits will help get more wood in while still keeping the secondaries from kicking off.  Just wait until it gets cold.  You'll fall in love all over again.  We're finally getting some cold weather and I think I'd forgotton just what an impressive heater this is.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Joful said:


> Way off-topic... but I'm confused by that graph. How does a big cast iron stove like the Jotul Firelight 600 rate so incredibly low on max BTU/hr., while a soapstone stove marketed so strongly for its ability to moderate temperature swings, rates so high on max BTU/hr. for an EPA test load?


There are a lot of things wrong with that chart.


----------



## Ashful

BrowningBAR said:


> There are a lot of things wrong with that chart.


 
I'm skeptical anytime something disagrees with both physics and marketing.    I guess we need more info under the obviously disparate conditions under which each stove was tested.


----------



## rideau

Obviously disparate conditiond?  I thought one thing we could all agree on is that the EPA tests test all the stoves under the same conditions?  In a test lab, loaded with a full firebox of dimensional Doug Fir?


----------



## BrowningBAR

rideau said:


> Obviously disparate conditiond? I thought one thing we could all agree on is that the EPA tests test all the stoves under the same conditions? In a test lab, loaded with a full firebox of dimensional Doug Fir?


Do you really think the 3.4 cu ft Drolet puts out twice as much heat as the 30NC?
Do you really think the Mansfield puts out more heat than the Equinox?
Do you really think the Encore puts out more heat than the 30NC?
Do you really think the Fireview puts out more heat than the Equinox?


----------



## Machria

BrowningBAR said:


> There are a lot of things wrong with that chart.


 
For example..?       Are you saying the EPA does not do the tests correctly?   or...?




BrowningBAR said:


> Do you really think the 3.4 cu ft Drolet puts out twice as much heat as the 30NC?
> Do you really think the Mansfield puts out more heat than the Equinox?
> Do you really think the Encore puts out more heat than the 30NC?
> Do you really think the Fireview puts out more heat than the Equinox?



I'm not defending the EPA's tests as I know nothing about them.  But any stove can output completely different than any other stove of the same type (cat, non-cat...) and size, based on the rest of it's design characteristics.  How the air flows through it, materials, how it exhausts, does the exhaust exit the stove too hot (aka wasted heat) or is the heat extracted and emmited from the stove....   these can ALL make a huge difference.  You seem to have this very weird idea that all things the same size are made and work exactly the same.  With my scientific and engineering background, I can assure you that is not the case.

Having said that, the one thing that does bother me about the EPA numbers is, their focus is surely on emmisions/polution or lack of, not how well a stove works heating.  So surely their tests could be made to be more beneficial to us users, instead of to the EPA's interest in limiting emmisions.




Joful said:


> I guess we need more info under the obviously disparate conditions under which each stove was tested.



As rideau mentioned, the one thing we do know is they are all tested in the exact same manner.  I do scientific tests all the time, you would be suprised at how different the results are normally from what we "thought" they would be.  It's like Mythbusters, and their sometimes suprising outcomes.  A Duct-tape boat really can float for days!


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> I'm not defending the EPA's tests as I know nothing about them. But any stove can output completely different than any other stove of the same type (cat, non-cat...) and size, based on the rest of it's design characteristics. How the air flows through it, materials, how it exhausts, does the exhaust exit the stove too hot (aka wasted heat) or is the heat extracted and emmited from the stove.... these can ALL make a huge difference. You seem to have this very weird idea that all things the same size are made and work exactly the same. With my scientific and engineering background, I can assure you that is not the case.


Let's pretend that is all true for a moment.

Explain how a non-cat, burn tube and baffle board, 3.4 cu ft steel stove puts out twice as much heat as a non-cat, burn tube and baffle board, 3.5 cu ft steel stove.

Explain how a non-cat, burn tube and baffle board, 3.2 cu ft stove soapstone stove puts out more heat than a non-cat, burn tube and baffle board, 4 cu ft stove soapstone from the same manufacturer.


----------



## rideau

BB, I'm not vested enough in this to get in a long discussion.  About a year ago read all I could find on EPA testing...not too inclined to reread at the moment.  But my recollection is that all the stoves are tested the same way.  That is all I am saying.  So, the tests should give a level ground for some sort of comparison.  I'm not famliar with the different stoves, and cannot even venture an opinion about output on anything but Woodstocks, except by reference to the manufacturer's literature and the comments of owners on this forum. 

I can state that Woodstock's stoves meet or exceed their stated heating capacity and burn times.  And their stated heating capacity and burn times are in line with those stated in the EPA tests.

My common sense tells me that it is not just the size of a firebox that determines the output of a stove.  ALL else being equal (air flow design, quality of construction, burn technique, air mix, automatic adjustments of air mix, materials of construction, tolerances, shape of firebox, ability to load firebox full, etc), I'd expect similar results from two stoves with the same size firebox.  ANY variable, and I'd expect to start to run into some differences in burn time and heat output.  MANY differences, and I would anticipate the possibility of a significant set of differences in burn times and heat output.


----------



## Machria

BrowningBAR said:


> Explain how a non-cat, burn tube and baffle board, 3.4 cu ft steel stove puts out twice as much heat as a non-cat, burn tube and baffle board, 3.5 cu ft steel stove.


 
LOL! Love that video!

Easy, as noted, the 3.5 might not burn all the fuel, maybe a good portion of it goes up and out the chimney. And even if it does burn the fuel, maybe all the heat goes up and out the chimney, instead of into the room via a proper conducting or convention design. The exhaust path for the 3.5 might go straight out from the top of the firebox and out the top of the stove, therefore sending all the heat right out the chminey. The 3.4 exhaust might wind around the top of the stove (as I have noticed the PH does under the cooktop), and release all it's heat into the stove materials BEFORE it goes up the chimney which results in more heat into the room, and less into the neighborhood. Therefore they both burn the same wood, yet one puts out 50% more heat into the room it is located in. One stoves burn tubes might introduce 10 liters of air and fresh oxygen into the stove every minute, which would create a huge amount of added fuel to the wood fuel. Oxgen is fuel too! While the other stove only allows 2 liters of fresh air into the stove per minute. 8 liters of extra fuel (oxygen) alone could more than double the heating output of one stove over another. Remember, wood does NOT burn, without oxygen.  This could also result in a much HOTTER burn of the same wood.  Hotter= more heat.

Then there are things like, maybe they both put out the same exact amount of BTU's of heat into the room. BUT, one of them does it all in 1 hour, while the other does it over a 5 hour period. So one is rated at 50k btu's per hour, while the other is rated at 10k btu's per hour. What you don't see in the number is, the first one puts out 50k btu's per hour, BUT needs to be fed every hour a full load, while the 2nd one does not need fed for 5 hours.

I could go on, and on, and on about what could be different. And I know close to nothing about stoves. It's just simple science, and science rules the world my friend.


----------



## Machria

One more comment, since this is the PH thread, about my experience with the PH so far. I've noticed I can put alot of wood into it, and burn it all very quickly (2 or 3 hours) putting out an immense amount of heat in a very short period (aka requiring almost ALL the windows in the room to be open!#!$). But, I can also put in about the same amount of wood, and it can burn for 12 hours with a much softer/comfortable heat ouput, all controllable by the air damper control.

So that coincides with Woodstocks claim of the widest range of output in this size stove, and some of the EPA testing. 

Pretty amazing control of the this stove. I don't know how that compares to other stoves, but when I was shopping everyone kept telling me "you will have great control of the PH". I didn't really understand that fully, but I do now.


----------



## BrowningBAR

I mean, I'm CURRENTLY RUNNING an Encore and a 30. The chart shows the Encore puts out more heat even though I experience that every day that is not the case. Not even close to the case. The 30 out heats the Encore and Heritage (which I have also owner) by massive leaps, both of which in the chart put out more heat than the 30.

The chart is useless, inaccurate, and does more harm than good.


----------



## rideau

BrowningBAR said:


> I mean, I'm CURRENTLY RUNNING an Encore and a 30. The chart shows the Encore puts out more heat even though I experience that every day that is not the case. Not even close to the case. The 30 out heats the Encore and Heritage (which I have also owner) by massive leaps, both of which in the chart put out more heat than the 30.
> 
> The chart is useless, inaccurate, and does more harm than good.


 
I completely believe your experience with the stoves.  So my question would be WHY isn't the 30 testing that way?  You own the 30.  Why don't you call and discuss it with the manufacturer?  They should have an interest in seeing that their stove is properly represented.  And, out of curiosity, what does THEIR literature say about real life heat output and burn time of the 30?  Do they list it with a more accurate representation?


----------



## BrowningBAR

rideau said:


> I completely believe your experience with the stoves. So my question would be WHY isn't the 30 testing that way? You own the 30. Why don't you call and discuss it with the manufacturer? They should have an interest in seeing that their stove is properly represented. And, out of curiosity, what does THEIR literature say about real life heat output and burn time of the 30? Do they list it with a more accurate representation?


That is just one of many inaccuracies with that chart. The Mansfield/Equinox is equally laughable.

Should I call every manufacturer and ask them about the inaccuracies or would it be best to chalk it up as a useless graph that does more harm than good when it comes to purchasing a stove?


----------



## Waulie

The reported epa outputs don't mean much.  The EPA doesn't really care about ouput, it cares about pollution.  Yes, each stove is tested with the same fuel, the same way.  But, it is not tested in a way that makes sense from a maximum/minimum output standpoint.  Ignore the specific numbers and instead look at the big picture.  The PH is a medium sized stove that can put out some serious heat which is in line with bigger stoves.  It also has a wide range of heat ouput.  It also puts out very little pollution.

Does it put out twice as much heat as the 30?  No.  Does it put out twice as much heat as the 30 in an hour with EPA test fuel and testing procedures?  Clearly.  Does that mean anything?  No.


----------



## Ashful

Machria said:


> As rideau mentioned, the one thing we do know is they are all tested in the exact same manner. I do scientific tests all the time, you would be suprised at how different the results are normally from what we "thought" they would be.


 
Unfortunately, you are both incorrect. The EPA test for emissions uses a load of varying size, based on firebox size. Because this graph was presented as data based on the EPA emissions testing, the conditions are disparate, in that the various size stoves are tested with different loads of wood.

http://www.woodheat.org/emissions-testing.html

I don't think anyone here is knocking your beloved Woodstock's performance, so there's no need to get heated over this, rideau.

_edit:  Waulie nailed the underlying theme._


----------



## Machria

Joful said:


> Unfortunately, you are both incorrect. The EPA test for emissions uses a load of varying size, based on firebox size. Because this graph was presented as data based on the EPA emissions testing, the conditions are disparate, in that the various size stoves are tested with different loads of wood.
> 
> http://www.woodheat.org/emissions-testing.html
> 
> I don't think anyone here is knocking your beloved Woodstock's performance, so there's no need to get heated over this, rideau.
> 
> _edit: Waulie nailed the underlying theme._


 

Agreed, they use the correct size load, for the size of the firebox.  That makes sense.  That still makes a proper comparison, one burns 10 lbs of wood with xx ouput, the other burns 8 lbs of wood with xx output.  Graph them, and that is what you get.  I have no problem with that.

And as I have mentioned several times, and Waulie repeated, the tests are very likely based and focused on emissions, not heat output.  But the heat output is used as a reference for "classing" the stoves.  Similar to how cars and trucks are on a certain "class", and must meet the emmisions rules for that "class".  So the heat ouputs might not be dead on (as I think we all agree), but they do make a decent reference point.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> But the heat output is used as a reference for "classing" the stoves. Similar to how cars and trucks are on a certain "class", and must meet the emmisions rules for that "class". So the heat ouputs might not be dead on (as I think we all agree),* but they do make a decent reference point.*


No. They do not.

The Progress does not put out three times as much heat as the 30.
The Drolet does not put out twice as much heat as the 30.
The Oslo does not put out more heat than the Encore and the 30
The Mansfield does not produce more heat than the Equinox.
The Fireview does not put out more heat than the Equinox.
The Encore and Heritage do not put out more heat than the 30.

Some of these I know from personal experience (30, Encore, Heritage, Fireview, Oslo). Others are purely common sense. It is a chart that should be ignored and offers zero value in terms of how a stove will heat your home.


----------



## rdust

Waulie said:


> The reported epa outputs don't mean much. The EPA doesn't really care about ouput, it cares about pollution.


 
+1, exactly what I've been thinking as I've been reading along!


----------



## Rich L

Forget the EPA it's still a crap shoot to know if a stove that works well for others will work well for your situation.


----------



## Machria

BrowningBAR said:


> No. They do not.
> 
> The Progress does not put out three times as much heat as the 30.
> The Drolet does not put out twice as much heat as the 30.
> The Oslo does not put out more heat than the Encore and the 30
> The Mansfield does not produce more heat than the Equinox.
> The Fireview does not put out more heat than the Equinox.
> The Encore and Heritage do not put out more heat than the 30.
> 
> Some of these I know from personal experience (30, Encore, Heritage, Fireview, Oslo). Others are purely common sense. It is a chart that should be ignored and offers zero value in term of how a stove will heat your home.


 

I don't think you are reading this correctly. Are you taking into consideration the fact it is ONLY comparing MAXIMUM BTU OUTPUT? The chart is not saying "a Progress puts out 3 times as much heat as a 30". It is saying, with a full load of EPA test wood, the MAXIMUM heat each unit will put out is xxx btu's. That does not mean it can do it for very long, or very short, or any lenght of time for that matter. Just that it can do it.

Here's an experiment for you to try someday. Load all three of your stoves with the same amount of the same type wood. Say, two 4 lb splits of oak for examle in each stove. Light them up, and leave them full blast open. Now measure (as best you can), how much heat each seems to put out, and how long it takes each one to burn down to the same point (10 or 20% left in coals). THAT, is what I believe they are showing you in the graph.

Does it show you exactly what a stove will do in your home?  of course not.  Nobody is saying that.  It is a reference point.


----------



## Waulie

Machria said:


> I don't think you are reading this correctly. Are you taking into consideration the fact it is ONLY comparing MAXIMUM BTU OUTPUT? The chart is not saying "a Progress puts out 3 times as much heat as a 30". It is saying, with a full load of EPA test wood, the MAXIMUM heat each unit will put out is xxx btu's. That does not mean it can do it for very long, or very short, or any lenght of time for that matter. Just that it can do it.
> 
> Here's an experiment for you to try someday. Load all three of your stoves with the same amount of the same type wood. Say, two 4 lb splits of oak for examle in each stove. Light them up, and leave them full blast open. Now measure (as best you can), how much heat each seems to put out, and how long it takes each one to burn down to the same point (10 or 20% left in coals). THAT, is what I believe they are showing you in the graph.
> 
> Does it show you exactly what a stove will do in your home? of course not. Nobody is saying that. It is a reference point.


 
Right, but it is implied by comments like "highest output ever".  Look, I don't really blame WS for touting the test results.  At least they actually are test results.  Plenty of manufacturers come up with claims which seem to be based on nothing at all.

The interesting thing to take from the test results is that the PH must still be heating very efficiently to put out that much heat with the draft full open.  While other stoves are probably sending a lot of the heat up the flue with the draft full open, the PH is still sending it into the room.  I've noticed that while you get lots of air with the draft full open, the stove still heats up very fast.  If I leave the draft full open very long on a hot coal reload, I'll often have secondaries like crazy before the flue is even indicating cat range.  The heat exchanger fins definitely helps.  Also, the slanted baffle pointed directly out the window sends a lot of heat into the room quickly.

Or, it could just mean the PH burned through that EPA test load very fast with the draft full open.  It's probably a combination of the two.

Of course this doesn't really mean anything for heating our homes.  It is interesting, but that's about it.  I suppose it goes to the efficiency since you aren't losing as much heat up the flue as you're getting your fire going and getting your stove up to temp.

The chart is not inaccurate.  It just reports the EPA test results.  However, it is certainly misleading.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> I don't think you are reading this correctly. Are you taking into consideration the fact it is ONLY comparing MAXIMUM BTU OUTPUT? The chart is not saying "a Progress puts out 3 times as much heat as a 30".* It is saying, with a full load of EPA test wood, the MAXIMUM heat each unit will put out is xxx btu's. That does not mean it can do it for very long, or very short, or any lenght of time for that matter. Just that it can do it.*


It is ridiculously wrong.



> Here's an experiment for you to try someday. Load all three of your stoves with the same amount of the same type wood. Say, two 4 lb splits of oak for examle in each stove. Light them up, and leave them full blast open. Now measure (as best you can), how much heat each seems to put out, and how long it takes each one to burn down to the same point (10 or 20% left in coals). THAT, is what I believe they are showing you in the graph.


No, it is not what they are showing. AND, the 30 easily puts out more heat with the same amount of wood than the Encore. Which isn't even what the original chart is showing.



> It is a reference point.


A really bad reference point that offers no value.


----------



## Machria

Waulie said:


> Right, but it is implied by comments like "highest output ever". Look, I don't really blame WS for touting the test results. At least they actually are test results. Plenty of manufacturers come up with claims which seem to be based on nothing at all.
> 
> *The interesting thing to take from the test results is that the PH must still be heating very efficiently to put out that much heat with the draft full open. While other stoves are probably sending a lot of the heat up the flue with the draft full open, the PH is still sending it into the room. I've noticed that while you get lots of air with the draft full open, the stove still heats up very fast. If I leave the draft full open very long on a hot coal reload, I'll often have secondaries like crazy before the flue is even indicating cat range. The heat exchanger fins definitely helps. Also, the slanted baffle pointed directly out the window sends a lot of heat into the room quickly.*
> 
> *Or, it could just mean the PH burned through that EPA test load very fast with the draft full open. It's probably a combination of the two.*
> 
> Of course this doesn't really mean anything for heating our homes. It is interesting, but that's about it. I suppose it goes to the efficiency since you aren't losing as much heat up the flue as you're getting your fire going and getting your stove up to temp.
> 
> The chart is not inaccurate. *It just reports the EPA test results*. However, it is certainly misleading.


 
*Exactly*. And that is exactly all I am saying. However, I do give the results more merrit than most, I don't think it is misleading at all, except for those that do not really understand what they are looking at (as with anything). For example, BB seems to think it is stating one stove puts out "more heat with the same load as another stove". It says nothing of the sort. It's simply a measure of the SPIKE of maximum heat output of each stove with the appropriate amount of EPA test wood based on firebox size. I beleive it is the best reference point we currenlty have besides user input, but user input tends to be off kilter even more.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> For example, BB seems to think it is stating one stove puts out "more heat with the same load as another stove".


Please point out the post in which I have said that. You are the one that stated this: "_Load all three of your stoves with the same amount of the same type wood.__ "_


> It says nothing of the sort. It's simply a measure of the SPIKE of maximum heat output of each stove with the appropriate amount of EPA test wood based on firebox size.* I beleive it is the best reference point we currenlty have besides user input*, but user input tends to be off kilter even more.


And I believe it is completely worthless and offers no value as to how a stove heats your home.

But, if you want to think a Woodstock Keystone will heat your home nearly as well as an Equinox or that a Fireview will heat your home better than an Equinox, then god speed and enjoy. Let me know how that works out for you....


----------



## Machria

BrowningBAR said:


> It is ridiculously wrong.
> 
> No, it is not what they are showing. AND,* the 30 easily puts out more heat with the same amount of wood than the Encore. Which isn't even what the original chart is showing*.


 
There ya go.  You've repeated that same concept throughout.....     ?     Nobody, especially me is saying, or is claiming the graph is saying, that any particular stove out heats any other particular stove.


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## macleary2000

Machria said:


> Not sure where your gettign your materials, but I just re-did my hearth, and although I did the all above it as well,it was MUCH more than $600. $1,500 for labor for the 1/2 slate install (included the thinset and Durarock for walls and hearth). $950 for 14 boxes of Silver slate 1/2" stone/tile, $300 to bullnose 3 or 4 boxes of it, about $200 of lumber (2x4's, 3/4" plywood, durarock...). Wish I could have bought one for $600!


 
When I estimated $100-$150, I was referring to just building a flat floor hearth pad. It sounds like your specific specs describe a floor and backsplash wall as well as maybe a raised ledge the way a traditional fireplace ledge might be designed? (since you said you had alot of bullnose) My estimate also indicated no labor charges (as I'd build it myself), hence the low cost. Sounds like you've got a nice hearth, show us a picture!


----------



## Machria

macleary2000 said:


> When I estimated $100-$150, I was referring to just building a flat floor hearth pad. It sounds like your specific specs describe a floor and backsplash wall as well as maybe a raised ledge the way a traditional fireplace ledge might be designed? (since you said you had alot of bullnose) My estimate also indicated no labor charges (as I'd build it myself), hence the low cost. Sounds like you've got a nice hearth, show us a picture!


 
Yes, I did a bunch more.... but I was just pointing out it goes a bit higher than you would think when all is said and done.  We ussually forget about the things like bullnose, thinset, grout, screws, nails..... it all starts adding up making the $600 not sound so bad  

Pics of mine over at: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...problem-progress-hyrbrid-install-pics.101580/


.


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## Machria

Browning, It's ok to disagree with somebody, relax. I completely disagree with your views on the subject, I don't beleive all stoves are made equal. You do think they are, and the only difference is their size. I think the chart is meaningful to some degree, you do not.

Great. Enjoy!


----------



## rdust

Machria said:


> Browning, It's ok to disagree with somebody, relax. I completely disagree with your views on the subject, I don't beleive all stoves are made equal. You do think they are, and the only difference is their size. I think the chart is meaningful to some degree, you do not.
> 
> Great. Enjoy!


 
The chart has NO meaning on how well the stove will heat your house.  It's doubtful anyone will ever run their stove the way it's run during the test.  That is what BrowningBAR has been saying this whole thread.  The two of you disagree, seeing how BrowingBAR is our resident stove mover I think his personal experience carries more weight for me than the chart.   

I've always been curious how the flue and stoves don't melt down during the EPA test on the high burn.


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## HotCoals

I gota go with BB on his one..that chart is goofy!


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## Machria

rdust said:


> The chart has NO meaning on how well the stove will heat your house. It's doubtful anyone will ever run their stove the way it's run during the test. That is what BrowningBAR has been saying this whole thread. The two of you disagree, seeing how BrowingBAR is our resident stove mover I think his personal experience carries more weight for me than the chart.
> 
> I've always been curious how the flue and stoves don't melt down during the EPA test on the high burn.


 
Correct.  Again, I don't know how many times I need to repeat this to you guys.  I AM NOT SAYING IT IS TELLING YOU HOW IT WILL HEAT YOUR HOUSE.  OR, how much heat a stove wil normally put out.   What it is doing, is comparing stoves MAX OUPUT and emmisions, plain and simple.  Why is that a problem?   They are simply facts.  Unless you think the EPA is lying?


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## HotCoals

How can the max output be that much diff between almost the same size stoves..bull..unless maybe that is when the stove is running the cleanest..even then I doubt it..I gota look at the chart again.


----------



## rdust

Machria said:


> Correct. Again, I don't know how many times I need to repeat this to you guys. I AM NOT SAYING IT IS TELLING YOU HOW IT WILL HEAT YOUR HOUSE. OR, how much heat a stove wil normally put out. What it is doing, is comparing stoves MAX OUPUT and emmisions, plain and simple. Why is that a problem? They are simply facts. Unless you think the EPA is lying?


 
I guess what we're trying to say is the "max output" number is meaningless in the real world so who cares what it is. The chart does not offer helpful guidance to someone shopping for a stove for the first time. Firebox size is the best judge of how well a stove will heat. Sure there are different materials and slightly different designs but in the end the firebox size is the key. My Endeavor was a 2.2 advertised firebox rated at 70K my BK is 2.8 and rate at 4xK, the BK will out heat that Endeavor ever step of the way in my real world experience. Maybe the Endeavor could throw more heat wide open, that was never a use case of mine.


----------



## Waulie

rdust said:


> I guess what we're trying to say is the "max output" number is meaningless in the real world so who cares what it is. The chart does not offer helpful guidance to someone shopping for a stove for the first time. Firebox size is the best judge of how well a stove will heat. Sure there are different materials and slightly different designs but in the end the firebox size is the key. My Endeavor was a 2.2 advertised firebox rated at 70K my BK is 2.8 and rate at 4xK, the BK will out heat that Endeavor ever step of the way in my real world experience. Maybe the Endeavor could throw more heat wide open, that was never a use case of mine.


 
I don't want to sound like I'm saying that chart is useful here. But, I will point out that the Endeavor was almost certainly reporting cord wood ratings that they themselves determined while the BK was reporting EPA figures. This, of course, is totally apples to oranges. Most manufacturers report both the EPA outputs and their own tests with cordwood. What's strange is that while these usually vary significantly, WS reports a maximum BTU with cordwood of only 80,000 which is not much higher than the EPA tests. I'm sure WS is being conservative with their cordwood ratings as they are with everthing else.

While I agree that the chart is not useful, we have to keep in mind that WS did not create any of the data. They just plotted the EPA data that is readily available in tabular form directly from the EPA. If there is blame here, it should be towards the EPA test procedures which "determine" an output range even though that is not what their real function is.

Is WS smart enough to create a stove that simply performed fantastically in the EPA tests so they could score big on the test results? Yes, they're probably smart enough to do that. Did they? We'll never know if there was some conspiracy here, but I do know that PH is capable of throwing an AMAZING amount of heat in real world heating. That's what matters.


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## Machria

What do you guys think of the 2nd shooter theory's?  Was there somebody in the grassy knoll?     



Sorry, couldn't resist after reading that.


----------



## Waulie

Machria said:


> What do you guys think of the 2nd shooter theory's? Was there somebody in the grassy knoll?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist after reading that.


 
Yeah, I just edited to hopefully indicate I'm not claiming a 2nd shooter.  Original wording was ambiguous.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Waulie said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm saying that chart is useful here. But, I will point out that the Endeavor was almost certainly reporting cord wood ratings that they themselves determined while the BK was reporting EPA figures. This, of course, is totally apples to oranges. Most manufacturers report both the EPA outputs and their own tests with cordwood. What's strange is that while these usually vary significantly, WS reports a maximum BTU with cordwood of only 80,000 which is not much higher than the EPA tests. I'm sure WS is being conservative with their cordwood ratings as they are with everthing else.
> 
> While I agree that the chart is not useful, we have to keep in mind that WS did not create any of the data. They just plotted the EPA data that is readily available in tabular form directly from the EPA. If there is blame here, it should be towards the EPA test procedures which "determine" an output range even though that is not what their real function is.
> 
> Is WS smart enough to create a stove that simply performed fantastically in the EPA tests so they could score big on the test results? Yes, they're probably smart enough to do that. Did they? We'll never know if there was some conspiracy here, but I do know that PH is capable of throwing an AMAZING amount of heat in real world heating. That's what matters.


 
This isn't about Woodstocks claims. This is about the ratings of all the other stoves and where they are located on the chart and how it does not make any logical sense.

Explain the Drolet and Englander discrepancy.
Explain the Mansfield and Equinox discrepancy.


----------



## Waulie

BrowningBAR said:


> This isn't about Woodstocks claims. This is about the ratings of all the other stoves and where they are located on the chart and how it does not make any logical sense.
> 
> Explain the Drolet and Englander discrepancy.
> Explain the Mansfield and Equinox discrepancy.


 
I can't explain it other than to say that's how they tested in the EPA certified labs.  I already agree it doesn't really mean anything in the real world.  My only point is that if I created a product that tested great in the only objective test there is comparing my product to others (and one that I'm required to do by law by the way), I'd probably point out how well my product tested.  It is a flawed test.  It is misleading and doesn't mean anything in real world heating.  But, it is the only objective test there is that almost all new stoves are subjected to.  Sucks doesn't it?


----------



## rideau

Joful said:


> Unfortunately, you are both incorrect. The EPA test for emissions uses a load of varying size, based on firebox size. Because this graph was presented as data based on the EPA emissions testing, the conditions are disparate, in that the various size stoves are tested with different loads of wood.
> 
> http://www.woodheat.org/emissions-testing.html
> 
> I don't think anyone here is knocking your beloved Woodstock's performance, so there's no need to get heated over this, rideau.
> 
> _edit: Waulie nailed the underlying theme._


 
As I stated in one of my posts, I'm not really very vested in this discussion.  Certainly don't feel anyone is knocking any stove's performance.  Was just commenting on my impression  of the testing....which I never felt was the be all and end all of stove performance.  I've learned a bit from this discussion, which is always nice.  Like Waulie's summation....and certainly believe BB's real world experience. 

I've just had a new thought, and am tempted to raise the question related to it, but I think I've "contributed" enough to this discussion.  Time to move on. 

There are lots of good, and even great, stoves out there, as is obvious to anyone who reads much on this forum.


----------



## rdust

Waulie said:


> But, I will point out that the Endeavor was almost certainly reporting cord wood ratings that they themselves determined while the BK was reporting EPA figures.


 
You would be correct, those are cord wood numbers.  Pretty much the problem with those numbers since a potential consumer who doesn't spend their free time in the evening browsing this site doesn't even realize there is a difference between EPA test fuel and cord wood.  This is a different problem though and not related to the "chart".   

Yep, I think this thread has "run it's coarse" for me.


----------



## HotCoals

None of that matters..what does matter is that I have the "king" of stoves..lol.


----------



## Ashful

My primary trouble with the chart, and the implication that started this whole debate, is that the soapstone stove with most mass and an exceptionally high specific heat material, is shown as achieving an exceptionally high peak BTU/hr on a fixed test load, whereas other steel or iron stoves known or advertised (by Woodstock themselves) to be much more responsive ("less even heating", by Woodstock advertising) are shown as not achieving the same peak BTU/hr.  It goes against 20+ years of Woodstock's own advertising, where they tout soapstone's ability to moderate the peaks of the heating cycle, and provide a more constant output.  We all assume there's a fixed number of BTUs in that test load, so the stove hitting highest peak BTUs will also have the shortest overall cycle, again against Woodstock marketing.


----------



## rideau

Joful said:


> My primary trouble with the chart, and the implication that started this whole debate, is that the soapstone stove with most mass and an exceptionally high specific heat material, is shown as achieving an exceptionally high peak BTU/hr on a fixed test load, whereas other steel or iron stoves known or advertised (by Woodstock themselves) to be much more responsive ("less even heating", by Woodstock advertising) are shown as not achieving the same peak BTU/hr. It goes against 20+ years of Woodstock's own advertising, where they tout soapstone's ability to moderate the peaks of the heating cycle, and provide a more constant output. We all assume there's a fixed number of BTUs in that test load, so the stove hitting highest peak BTUs will also have the shortest overall cycle, again against Woodstock marketing.


 Jotul, don't lose track of the fact that the PH is a different stove.  It has different burn technology.  It has both secondary and cat tech, and automatically switches back and forth between the two burns, or sometimes burns both ways simultaneously, so it is a diffrent bird than previous Woodstock stoves.  It heats up faster, throws much more heat through the glass, loses less heat up the chimney, circulates hot air around the inside of the stove, uses a steel inner jacket between two layers of soapstone...a whole diffferent bird.  One gets the advantages of soapstone and steel, as well as the advantages of both types of burn,  gets really great heat output at any point in the burn by simply feeding a bit more air, and gets no dip in steady more moderate heat output despite occasionally asking for peak output, because the soapstone/iron mass stores a lot of heat.  .


----------



## Machria

Joful said:


> My primary trouble with the chart, and the implication that started this whole debate, is that the soapstone stove with most mass and an exceptionally high specific heat material, is shown as achieving an exceptionally high peak BTU/hr on a fixed test load, whereas other steel or iron stoves known or advertised (by Woodstock themselves) to be much more responsive ("less even heating", by Woodstock advertising) are shown as not achieving the same peak BTU/hr. It goes against 20+ years of Woodstock's own advertising, where they tout soapstone's ability to moderate the peaks of the heating cycle, and provide a more constant output. We all assume there's a fixed number of BTUs in that test load, so the stove hitting highest peak BTUs will also have the shortest overall cycle, again against Woodstock marketing.


 
I understand where your trying to go with it, and that makes sense.  Except, your mixing up burn times in there, and assuming all stoves would generate the same amount of heat with the same load of wood.  That simply is not the case.  Just like different cars get different MPG with the same amount of gasoline, some can go faster for a short distance, some go further but do it much slower, and some can do both (and those would be the ideal cars, good MPG plus lots of power/speed).  Similarly, a BK can burn alot longer than a PH, but a PH can put out more heat. 

The fact the PH can blast alot of heat out at it's peak, has nothing to do with the other fact that that the extra mass and specific heat index of Soapstone can smooth out the heat output.  What its saying is, the PH can do both.  From my very limited experience with it, I can agree with that.  I can burn us out of the house in 30 minutes, and I can let it slow burn all night with a nice even heat as I did last night.  Pretty cool stuff...

To me and where I live (Long Island), I think one of the most important specs to look at when picking a stove is the range of output.  Long Island can sometimes be moderate due to the ocean air/warm gulf stream, but at the same time we can also sometimes get blasted with very cold cold fronts from the north and west that hang over us for weeks.  The wide range of the PH is what I like.


----------



## Machria

HotCoals said:


> None of that matters..what does matter is that I have the "king" of stoves..lol.


 
You sure do!!   And the way your hearth is setup for that thing, I'm surprised the BK isn't sitting up on a throne!       It really does look like a kings thrown up there.


----------



## BrowningBAR

I look forward to my lawsuit when I buy the PH in five years and it doesn't put out three times as much heat as the 30 or the Defiant.

"But, your honor, this chart clearly states that the PH will put out three times as many BTUs at it's peak!"


----------



## Machria

BrowningBAR said:


> I look forward to my lawsuit when I buy the PH in five years and it doesn't put out three times as much heat as the 30 or the Defiant.
> 
> "But, your honor, this chart clearly states that the PH will put out three times as many BTUs at it's peak!"


 
LOL!   For the seventeenth time, that is NOT even close to what the chart is saying.  Please go back and re-read my posts.  Your not getting it, and your mis-understanding the test results, which explains why you don't like or agree with them at all.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> LOL! For the seventeenth time, that is NOT even close to what the chart is saying. Please go back and re-read my posts. Your not getting it, and your mis-understanding the test results, which explains why you don't like or agree with them at all.


Spell it out then. What is the chart saying as it regards BTU output?


----------



## Machria

Machria said:


> *I don't think you are reading this correctly. Are you taking into consideration the fact it is ONLY comparing MAXIMUM BTU OUTPUT? The chart is not saying "a Progress puts out 3 times as much heat as a 30". It is saying, with a full load of EPA test wood, the MAXIMUM heat each unit will put out is xxx btu's. That does not mean it can do it for very long, or very short, or any lenght of time for that matter. Just that it can do it.*
> 
> Here's an experiment for you to try someday. Load all three of your stoves with the same amount of the same type wood. Say, two 4 lb splits of oak for examle in each stove. Light them up, and leave them full blast open. Now measure (as best you can), how much heat each seems to put out, and how long it takes each one to burn down to the same point (10 or 20% left in coals). THAT, is what I believe they are showing you in the graph. _ (EDIT:  All three will very likely product completely different results, different outputs spread over different time period, with different peak outputs, and different low outputs.)_
> 
> Does it show you exactly what a stove will do in your home? of course not. Nobody is saying that. It is a reference point.


----------



## rideau

quote="BrowningBAR, post: 1322687, member: 5809"]I look forward to my lawsuit when I buy the PH in five years and it doesn't put out three times as much heat as the 30 or the Defiant.

"But, your honor, this chart clearly states that the PH will put out three times as many BTUs at it's peak!"[/quote]

That's right, BB.  Keep the lawyers employed, adding value to all our lives.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Super. Maximum BTU output is three times that of the 30. Which seems to indicate that it is putting out three times as much heat. So, with a full load of wood, the Progress will put out three times as much heat as the 30.

If that isn't what it means, than what does the chart tell the user? Specifically. What can a potential buyer take away from this chart in terms of how the stove will operate in their home as it regards BTU output?

Because, looking at the chart a user will look at it and say, "oh, the Fireview will provide more heat than an Equinox."


----------



## BrowningBAR

rideau said:


> BrowningBAR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to my lawsuit when I buy the PH in five years and it doesn't put out three times as much heat as the 30 or the Defiant.
> 
> "But, your honor, this chart clearly states that the PH will put out three times as many BTUs at it's peak!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, BB. Keep the lawyers employed, adding value to all our lives.
Click to expand...

I'm only thinking of the economy.


----------



## Machria

BB, maybe this explanation will help a bit.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your looking at this as if the BTU #'s listed is the cumulative # of BTU's that were output with the load.  By cumulative, that means the total BTU's that were output over the entire course of the burn of EPA test load.  In other words, if they put in 200k BTU's worth of wood, each stove should then have produced something just under 200k BTU's of heat (under 200k because there will obviosuly be some loss of BTU up the chimney).  One stove (lets call it stove YY) might burn all the wood in 1 hour, in which case the YY stove put out ~200k in one hour.  Another stove (lets call it stove XX) might burn it over 10 hours, in which case stove XX put out the same ~200k, but did it over 10 hours.  So in your words, you could say "they both put out the same amount of heat or BTU's".  Right?    Great.  But that is not what the chart is showing.  What it is showing is, stove YY peaked at 200k output for one hour (it put out 200k in one hour).  Since stove XX put out 200k in 10 hours, you can derive that 200k/10 hours = 20k peak output per hour.  Hence, on the graph stove YY would be plotted at 200k BTU's per hour max heat output, while stove XX would be plotted at 20k BTU's max heat output.   In the interest of simplifying the explanation, I of course smoothed the heat output lines over time (which we all know is not the real case), and assumed similar heating efficiences between the two stoves (which we also know is not the case).  But you get the idea. 

So both stoves (XX and YY) put out the same amount of heat with the same load of wood.  The difference being, stove XX put it all out at once, and the stove YY spread it out over time.  It is only showing one snapshot of the potential of the stoves, which of course happends to be the one the EPA is interested in, a full blast burn (since they want to see the emmisions at this burn rate).  Does it tell you all you need to know about a stove?  Absolutely not.  Does it give one a "reference point" (ability to compare to other tested stoves) of how much heat a stove can produce at max output with EPA test wood?  Yes.  Is this # the same number you will get in your home?  No.  But again, it's a reference pioint to be used for comparisons only.  From reading the chart, I now know that stove XX can blast more heat in a short period than stove YY if required.  That can be a good thing, and that can be a bad thing.  It's not saying a stove is better than another.

To me, the important thing is this number (max heat ouput) in *combination* with the LOW burn number, which gives you a reference point of the range of a stoves output.  This is where I think the PH excels, it has a pretty low low end, and pretty high high end, or as Woodstock claims, the widest range of heat output of any stove in it's class.  Whether that is true or not, I'll let you guys with stove experience argue that point out.


----------



## Waulie

BrowningBAR said:


> I look forward to my lawsuit when I buy the PH in five years and it doesn't put out three times as much heat as the 30 or the Defiant.


 
As long as you realize you'll have to sue the EPA and not WS.  The EPA has a LOT of lawyers, they're pretty used to getting sued.  Just warning ya...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the label that goes on all approved stoves list the output range as determined by the EPA testing?


----------



## Machria

BrowningBAR said:


> Because, looking at the chart a user will look at it and say, "oh, the Fireview will provide more heat than an Equinox."


 
No, an educated user will say: A Fireview has a MAX heat ouput using EPA test wood, higher than the Equinox. Again, it does NOT say it ill put out more heat. Your confusing a PEAK output, with cumulative generated heat.

Look at it this way:
If a ford mustang can go from 0 to 20 MPH in 1.8 seconds and a Porche 911 can go from 0 to 20 MPH in 1.9 seconds, does that tell you a Ford Mustang is "faster" than a 911? No. A 911 can do 300mph, a mustang can only do 220. But the mustang is simply faster off the line, but in the long run the 911 will leave the mustang in the dust. (I made up these numbers for demonstration purposes, you get the idea). Summarizing that the mustang is faster than the 911 based on this little snapshot of info is wrong. Similarly, your making an inapropriate gernalized summation based on a very small snapshot of information by saying "the chart says it will out heat stove xx by 3 times...".


----------



## Machria

Waulie said:


> As long as you realize you'll have to sue the EPA and not WS. The EPA has a LOT of lawyers, they're pretty used to getting sued. Just warning ya...
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the label that goes on all approved stoves list the output range as determined by the EPA testing?


 
Both good points.   

And keep in mind, this whole discussion is the same discussion that goes on about the MPG ratings on cars.  Have you ever got a car to get the same MPG in real life that the Guberment tested and approved sticker says it will get?    NO.   But you certainly can use that number as a comparison to other vehicles when purchasing a car.  If one says it gets 30mpg, and another says it gets 20mpg, the 30 mpg car will very likley get better fuel economy, but that doesn't mean you will get the sticker 30.  Just that you will get better economy than the other.


----------



## macleary2000

Machria said:


> Pics of mine over at: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...problem-progress-hyrbrid-install-pics.101580/ .


 
WOW. I'd of been so nervous about that scaffolding!! Beautiful job. I might have to put in a duct to move the air around in my house too so thanks for the idea, although mine wouldn't be directly over the stove the way yours is located.

Does anyone have any recommendations on reasonably priced IR heat temp guns? I'm getting the impression alot of people own these to track temps on their hearths, different spots on their stoves, etc so I might want to pick one up too.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> No, an educated user will say: A Fireview has a MAX heat ouput using EPA test wood, higher than the Equinox. Again, it does NOT say it ill put out more heat. Your confusing a PEAK output, with cumulative generated heat.


I am not confusing the two.



> Look at it this way:
> If a ford mustang can go from 0 to 20 MPH in 1.8 seconds and a Porche 911 can go from 0 to 20 MPH in 1.9 seconds, does that tell you a Ford Mustang is "faster" than a 911? No. A 911 can do 300mph, a mustang can only do 220. But the mustang is simply faster off the line, but in the long run the 911 will leave the mustang in the dust. (I made up these numbers for demonstration purposes, you get the idea). Summarizing that the mustang is faster than the 911 based on this little snapshot of info is wrong. Similarly, your making an inapropriate gernalized summation based on a very small snapshot of information by saying "the chart says it will out heat stove xx by 3 times...".


For the love of god, man. Stop using car analogies. They aren't very good.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Again, peak out put indicates how much heat/BTUs it can throw at one undetermined time. There is absolutely no way that the Drolet can throw 3x the peak BTUs as the 30. Same design. Same materials. Same size. ( I am using Drolet in this case as it is closer to the same stove as the 30). There are, in now way, enough differences in the two stoves to have such a massive difference in "peak" BTU output.

Again, the Mansfield and the Equinox are made by the same company, usuing the same materials, using the same reburn and air control systems. It is not possible for the Mansfield to have a higher "peak" BTU output than the Equinox.

I am using non-woodstock stoves and stoves that are identical in design and materials.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Machria said:


> BB, maybe this explanation will help a bit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your looking at this as if the BTU #'s listed is the cumulative # of BTU's that were output with the load.


No, I'm not. I am looking at it as BTUs per hour. 



> By cumulative, that means the total BTU's that were output over the entire course of the burn of EPA test load. In other words, if they put in 200k BTU's worth of wood, each stove should then have produced something just under 200k BTU's of heat (under 200k because there will obviosuly be some loss of BTU up the chimney). One stove (lets call it stove YY) might burn all the wood in 1 hour, in which case the YY stove put out ~200k in one hour. Another stove (lets call it stove XX) might burn it over 10 hours, in which case stove XX put out the same ~200k, but did it over 10 hours. So in your words, you could say "they both put out the same amount of heat or BTU's". Right? Great. But that is not what the chart is showing. What it is showing is, stove YY peaked at 200k output for one hour (it put out 200k in one hour). Since stove XX put out 200k in 10 hours, you can derive that 200k/10 hours = 20k peak output per hour. Hence, on the graph stove YY would be plotted at 200k BTU's per hour max heat output, while stove XX would be plotted at 20k BTU's max heat output. In the interest of simplifying the explanation, I of course smoothed the heat output lines over time (which we all know is not the real case), and assumed similar heating efficiences between the two stoves (which we also know is not the case). But you get the idea.
> 
> So both stoves (XX and YY) put out the same amount of heat with the same load of wood. The difference being, stove XX put it all out at once, and the stove YY spread it out over time. It is only showing one snapshot of the potential of the stoves, which of course happends to be the one the EPA is interested in, a full blast burn (since they want to see the emmisions at this burn rate). Does it tell you all you need to know about a stove? Absolutely not. Does it give one a "reference point" (ability to compare to other tested stoves) of how much heat a stove can produce at max output with EPA test wood? Yes. Is this # the same number you will get in your home? No. But again, it's a reference pioint to be used for comparisons only. From reading the chart, I now know that stove XX can blast more heat in a short period than stove YY if required. That can be a good thing, and that can be a bad thing. It's not saying a stove is better than another.


Again, when stove XX and YY are from the same manufacturer, offer the same materials, the same air controls, the same reburn, it is impossible for the smaller stove to achieve higher peak BTUs.

It would be like listing the Fireview as a higher "peak" BTU stove on that chart than the Progress.


----------



## Ashful

Machria: In BAR's defense, you have consistently used the term BTU's to refer to power, whereas BTU is actually a measure of energy (power * time). I think you know what you're saying, but you're using the wrong units of measure, which is adding to the confusion.


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## Highbeam

Machria said:


> No, an educated user will say: A Fireview has a MAX heat ouput using EPA test wood, higher than the Equinox. Again, it does NOT say it ill put out more heat.


 
This is messed up right here and maybe where you went so wrong. It is false that your term "heat output" is different than "heat it will put out". The word_ output_ is pretty much the combination of the two words _put _and _out _don't you think mac?


----------



## BrowningBAR

And an "educated" viewer will in fact look at that chart and think the Drolet will beat the hell out of the 30 when it comes to heating your home. A viewer will think the Fireview and Mansfield will put out more heat than an Equinox.

To think otherwise means you are choosing to ignore thread after thread after thread of people attempting to figure out which stove will heat their home.


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## Machria

Highbeam said:


> This is messed up right here and maybe where you went so wrong. It is false that your term "heat output" is different than "heat it will put out". The word_ output_ is pretty much the combination of the two words _put _and _out _don't you think mac?


 
Huh?   I was parsing the difference between all the heat a unit ouputs throughout an enitre burn, compared to the PEAK output of a burn.  One is cumulative, the other is a peak.  Both are heat ouputs measured over different time period. 

I haven't gone wrong at all.  I'm dead on. Now whether the numbers reported are correct or not, that you can argue all you want.  There not my numbers, take that up with the EPA and stove companies.  But you can't argue what the numbers represent.  A spade is a spade.  The graph is what it is.  You can dispute the numbers in it, but you can't dispute what the graph is showing you.  All I'm doing is defining what the graph tells you.


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## Rich L

Can any of you PH users tell me how the PH performed during these past very frigid days?


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## Waulie

Rich L said:


> Can any of you PH users tell me how the PH performed during these past very frigid days?


 
It wasn't as frigid here as it's been in the NE, but we had several nights with lows in the low teens.  Rather than loading it 60 to 75% full like usual, I loaded it full with 16 to 17" splits.  Since it holds 22" splits, I really wasn't using the entire volume.  Still did 12 hour burns like always with plently of coals (actually a ton) for an easy reload.  I'm heating 1,700 square-feet with average insulation, cathedral ceilings, and a few draft issues.  House temps have ranged from 67 to 74 like always.  The only time I have trouble with 12 hour burns is if we get down near zero.  In that case, a couple split make up fire in the evening is a good idea, although not completely necessary.


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## chipsoflyin

When temps get below 10 degrees we go to 3  eight hour burns with the fire box 2/3s full. That is with 16 inch splits. With 22s I think 2 twelves will keep the house above 72. We hit zero the other night and the coldest part of the house was 68.


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## Todd 2

Rich L said:


> Can any of you PH users tell me how the PH performed during these past very frigid days?


Hi Rich, Waulie pretty much summed it up for me too, I'm using left over 3 yr seasoned locust cut for the old stove (14-15") on the coldest nights.
2000 sq ft basement & upstairs combined, less than average insulation, some drafts, Basement 76-80 deg, upstairs 73-75 deg, on those last couple of single digit nights.(we hang out in the basement alot, we like it warm) I feel my burn times will increase past the 10-11 hr mark next winter when I can put an actual full load in.
With temps in the avg 30's I use half to 2/3 loads (short wood= less than my figures) 
Using less wood, warmer, & more even temps than my PE Summit stove - it worked good for me but this PH's performance is still amazing me.
The single digit nights was the icing on the cake for me, with sprinkles  happy happy happy


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## Slow1

We missed the coldest nights here having just returned from a vacation in Tx, however loaded it up last night then this morning had coals at 5:30 to fill the box (packed it really) as the house was still cold from our trip.  Had left thermostat on 50 when gone and raised up to 61 overnight upstairs and 57 downstairs.  This morning the central heat was running for both zones, but an hour after loading up full (outside temp was <20) both zones stopped running and house was warming up.  Ran the PH on the hot side (hottest I ever have) and by noon I had a large coal bed and the kitchen near stove was up to 70*, upstairs up to 66 which is far better than I was able to do with the FV in years past.  I put 4 pcs (< 1/2 load) in at noon as I had to run some errands and came home to even warmer house.  8pm load on good solid bed of coals, packed it again and it is now running almost 500* surface temps and looks to have burned about 1/3 of the load after 2 hours (will slow down the volume burn as it goes on of course).  Kitchen thermometer is up to 73+ and I don't expect the oil to kick in again until the next time we go out of town.  I'm heating something around 2500+ sqft of decently insulated space (2000 build 2x4 walls).

I'll probably back of on these packed stove burns now that the house is up to the temps that we like, but it has been interesting.  Even got the "new stove" smell this morning as I was heating it up.  Really nice fire show too.  Nothing but the iconal screen glowed though (and that almost always does - pretty normal operation).  All in all I burned 26 splits today as many were rather small (10+4+12).


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## Waulie

Wow Slow1.  You got your house back up to temp pretty darn fast, especially considering it was still cold out.  Isn't it fun burning real hot?  I don't get very many opportunities to do it.  I need to go out of town more!


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## Rich L

I'm considering a used PH $2200.00.I'm looking to replace my LOPI Liberty with a stove that gives  off similar heat but with longer heat times.So I thank all for your feed back.It'll help me to make up my mind one way or the other.I'd hate to move 700lbs. and the stove fails me.Plus since I'm buying it used I won't be able to engage the return policy.


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## Waulie

Rich L said:


> I'm considering a used PH $2200.00.I'm looking to replace my LOPI Liberty with a stove that gives off similar heat but with longer heat times.So I thank all for your feed back.It'll help me to make up my mind one way or the other.I'd hate to move 700lbs. and the stove fails me.Plus since I'm buying it used I won't be able to engage the return policy.


 
Yeah, I remember your post on the topic the other day.  As I recall, you're burning your stoves pretty hot because you need a lot of heat.  Overall, the PH will give your a higher range of heat outputs than the Mansfield, a bit more heat from the same wood (better efficiency), and probably a tad higher, high burn rate.  The thing is though, if you need a ton of heat then your burn times are going to suffer regardless of the stove you own.  If you're always burning hot (and therefore fast), you're not going to see a huge benefit from having a stove that has the ability to burn lower (and therefore longer).


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## Slow1

Waulie said:


> Wow Slow1. You got your house back up to temp pretty darn fast, especially considering it was still cold out. Isn't it fun burning real hot? I don't get very many opportunities to do it. I need to go out of town more!


 
I'm surprised as well. Happy too. It hasn't been all that cold really - I think the low last night was just in the 20's and it is somewhere around freezing now. However, was happy to wake up this morning (late) to find that I had a nice bed of coals in the stove after 13hrs and over 70 in the kitchen and 68+ upstairs (actually warmer than when I loaded last night!). I'm beginning to think that better draft (colder weather) actually is extending my burn time - can that possibly make sense? The burns look different in that I'm getting a lot of secondary burn inside the top of the stove (jets of fire) throughout the first 3-4 hours unlike before when the fire would go out and then come back later in the burn. This also seems to be getting me higher temps on the stove in the first part of the burn. Of course it could be change of wood as I work through the pile - maybe I am hitting on better/dryer wood? I don't know but whatever it is, I'm a happy camper at the moment.


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## Waulie

I've concluded that having the secondaries fire off doesn't really hurt burn times very much compared to keeping them snuffed out.  It seems odd, but that's what I experienced.


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## rideau

Slow1 said:


> I'm surprised as well. Happy too. It hasn't been all that cold really - I think the low last night was just in the 20's and it is somewhere around freezing now. However, was happy to wake up this morning (late) to find that I had a nice bed of coals in the stove after 13hrs and over 70 in the kitchen and 68+ upstairs (actually warmer than when I loaded last night!). I'm beginning to think that better draft (colder weather) actually is extending my burn time - can that possibly make sense? The burns look different in that I'm getting a lot of secondary burn inside the top of the stove (jets of fire) throughout the first 3-4 hours unlike before when the fire would go out and then come back later in the burn. This also seems to be getting me higher temps on the stove in the first part of the burn. Of course it could be change of wood as I work through the pile - maybe I am hitting on better/dryer wood? I don't know but whatever it is, I'm a happy camper at the moment.


 That experience would argue for letting more air into the firebox in warmer weather.  Seems you are getting better results with more oxygen. 

I loaded 4 large splits 2 1/2 hours ago.  Still have slow cat flames and secondaries, very slow.  Stove top temp has remained steady at420, house is very comfortable at 70 degrees.  It is sunny, and I don't want it hotter today.  We'll be out a lot, and in and out we'll be too warm inside if I get it warmer.  Will step up the burn a bit this evening.  I fully expect this load to last until my nighttime reload.  Hardly a dent in the load yet.


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## greenbrierwv

ive noticed that as well.  i tend to not shut it down nearly as fast anymore.  i let those secondaries take off for a little bit and than shut it down.  makes for a cleaner burn imo.  and once you get everything burning hot and shut it down, the cat secondaries are amazing.  a buddy and i experienced what i called "the perfect burn" last night.  beautiful dancing blue flames coming from all around the fire box.  btw, i just cleaned my cat for the first time this season (burning 24/7 since october) and the cat wasnt even dirty at all.  i could have waited another month easy.  cleaned the glass really well while i was at it, which made the fire show that much better.  this stove is top notch.


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## chipsoflyin

I've noticed that with secondaries going, the flue temps are 100-150 degrees cooler than when the stove is in 100% cat burn. Lower flu temps, less heat going out the pipe, more heat in building, more efficient.


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## Dairyman

chipsoflyin said:


> I've noticed that with secondaries going, the flue temps are 100-150 degrees cooler than when the stove is in 100% cat burn. Lower flu temps, less heat going out the pipe, more heat in building, more efficient.


 
That's interesting I would have thought it opposite. What are the flue temps? High flue temps are the biggest complaint I have with the Mansfield.


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## chipsoflyin

I'm guessing that the cat sits high in the smoke path so when all the action is up high more heat escapes up the flue.The flue temps are 350-400  when 100% on the cat. When the secondaries fire off the flue temps drop to 200-250. These temps are measured 18" above the collar


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## Machria

rideau said:


> Stove top temp has remained steady at420,



Where/how do you measure 400+ on stovetop?  On soapstone, on the collar....?     I've never seen my top soapstone get above 350, normally it is around 300-325 went hot.  



chipsoflyin said:


> I'm guessing that the cat sits high in the smoke path so when all the action is up high more heat escapes up the flue.The flue temps are 350-400  when 100% on the cat. When the secondaries fire off the flue temps drop to 200-250. These temps are measured 18" above the collar



I see the pipe temp (about 14" above stove) go from 300 down to between 225 - 250 and stay there when I close the bypass.   The only time it will raise above that is if I turn the air up beyond about 1/2 way, which is asking for a blast furnace basically.

I would not think the secondaries burning, unless they are blasting, would lower the burn times.  The secondaries are burning gas that would normally go up the flue and new freshly introduce oxygen (added fuel!), so in a way it would make sense it would extend the burn time since you could burn less wood, and more "other" fuel.  

I should add, I'm still not loading this thing up very full, it has yet to get below 28 degrees at night, it's been very warm out so far this year for me which is par for the course.  If I buy an umbrella, we will have a 10 year drought!

All that said, last night I loaded some better wood than I've been burning, been burning 10 year old cedar and pine.  Tried a small load, 4 medium size 12" short splits of 2 year old perfect maple.  I loaded them into a hot stove at 10pm last night, and shut the air almost all the way off, just a pinch open.  At 12noon today, I went to empty the ashcan, assuming the stove was cold.  Wrong, the stove top was at 190, and there was enough red coals to reload and it take off...   So that was a 14 hour burn, with about a 1/4 full load of nice seasoned chunks of maple.  I can't even imagine what a full load of oak or locust is going to do?


----------



## Rich L

Dairyman said:


> That's interesting I would have thought it opposite. What are the flue temps? High flue temps are the biggest complaint I have with the Mansfield.


 My Mansfield worked much better after I put in a pipe damper.It sent more heat into the cellar from the stove and the flue.


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## rideau

Normal outside temps, I usually burn my stove so the temp on the soapstone (old cooktop) is 325-350.  Cooler weather here now (not today), and I am burning with the air open up to 1/4.  Have the new shielded cooktop now, so have moved the thermometer to the cast, to the left of the (top exiting) flue.  So, that's where I was reading the temp.  Moved it to the soapstone last night to check the difference for you, but forgot to check.  So, this morning, the thermometer was on the soapstone.  Got a good fire going, air mostly closed, temp read 320.  Moved it to the cast, and the temp read 380.  So, maybe 60 degrees or so hotter there.


----------



## Dairyman

Machria said:


> The secondaries are burning gas that would normally go up the flue and new freshly introduce oxygen (added fuel!), so in a way it would make sense it would extend the burn time since you could burn less wood, and more "other" fuel.


 
That would be true if you didn't have a cat.





chipsoflyin said:


> I'm guessing that the cat sits high in the smoke path so when all the action is up high more heat escapes up the flue.


 
I remember seeing a diagram of the progress but can't find it. I'm guessing that the cat is after the heat exchanger?


----------



## Dairyman

Rich L said:


> My Mansfield worked much better after I put in a pipe damper.It sent more heat into the cellar from the stove and the flue.


 
I have one, it doesn't help to hold flue temps down until they go above 850-900.


----------



## Machria

rideau said:


> Normal outside temps, I usually burn my stove so the temp on the soapstone (old cooktop) is 325-350.  Cooler weather here now (not today), and I am burning with the air open up to 1/4.  Have the new shielded cooktop now, so have moved the thermometer to the cast, to the left of the (top exiting) flue.  So, that's where I was reading the temp.  Moved it to the soapstone last night to check the difference for you, but forgot to check.  So, this morning, the thermometer was on the soapstone.  Got a good fire going, air mostly closed, temp read 320.  Moved it to the cast, and the temp read 380.  So, maybe 60 degrees or so hotter there.



Thanks.....   I usually measure close to a 100* difference between soap top and top collar/cast.


----------



## Huntindog1

chipsoflyin said:


> I've noticed that with secondaries going, the flue temps are 100-150 degrees cooler than when the stove is in 100% cat burn. Lower flu temps, less heat going out the pipe, more heat in building, more efficient.


 
Maybe its that with the secondaries firing, your burning up so much of the smoke there is very little left to burn thru the Cat which is up closer to the flue. With out secondaries firing,  your feeding the Cat more smoke it will burn much hotter and heat your flue more. The secondary burn is more down in the fire box and maybe your keeping more heat in the box to radiate out the stove.


----------



## Machria

Anyone ever try loading this stove instead of Norht-South or East-West, but UP-DOWN?    Or any other stove for that matter?

I have a bunch of very short (12") but chunky (good size) maple splits, and after loading the other night, I placed one standing up right inside the door since that side of the stove was empty basically.    Next morning, all the wood was burned down to a coal bed, except that one piece standing up, was only about 1/4 burned, and still burning nicely.    Got me thinking, what if you load the entire stove with short splits standing up?   You sure could get alot of wood in there, and I would think it would burn very slowly....  ?


----------



## rideau

Machria said:


> Anyone ever try loading this stove instead of Norht-South or East-West, but UP-DOWN? Or any other stove for that matter?
> 
> I have a bunch of very short (12") but chunky (good size) maple splits, and after loading the other night, I placed one standing up right inside the door since that side of the stove was empty basically. Next morning, all the wood was burned down to a coal bed, except that one piece standing up, was only about 1/4 burned, and still burning nicely. Got me thinking, what if you load the entire stove with short splits standing up? You sure could get alot of wood in there, and I would think it would burn very slowly.... ?


 Don't know.  Maybe if you started from a cool stove, and could safely work closely in the stove, you could tightly pack short (say 8 inch) large diameter pieces (ie: cut 16-18 inch relatively square splits in half), light it up and see what happens.  I'd personally try this during a cold spell with a good draft.  You  might get a slow long fire at low air, or you might get an amazing burn. 
By chance, for the first time ever in a Woodstock stove (Fireview or PH), I loaded a large split teepee fashion against a large split lying on the bottom of the stove only this morning.  It took a surprising time to really ignite (piece it was against had been loaded alone, was burning well; had bypass open and air 1/2 open for new piece while waiting for new piece to be charred.).  While watching it, I though about the caution, even stamped into the door, to not elevate the wood off the floor of the stove by any method, so opened the door and used the poker to edge the split flat.  Then added another split (now room for a third) and have been off to the races for several hours now. 

I have often put an 8-12 inch split, or more commonly round, (or more than one) in the space near the door, when it is cold out, to more fully cover the bottom of the stove.  Load it up and down or on its side, depending on how it fits in the stove best, and most safely (since I take into consideration that I don't want anything rolling out the door if/when I open it).  Often, these pieces near the door are in pretty good shape near the end of the burn, and I will occassioanlly open the door, push the wood near the door to the front of the stove, mess up the coals a bit, close the door and open the air a bit, for a few more hours of good burn.  Did this with the Fireview too.  So, although aware that the wood loaded N/S near the door, or on end near the door, burned more slowly, always attributed it to the wood being a bit further away from the main oxygen path, never to it being loaded on end.  Sort of still think that is the reason, since it doesn't seem to make a difference whether I load the wood on side or end. 

However, have never tried loading the entire stove on end.  You could probably get a lot more wood in, if you cut it to ideal dimensions, because of the small door.  I'd aim to get the wood in as tightly as possible.  I think you might get a humongous fire and a huge amount of heat....but wouldn't be surprised if it was easily controllable for a long low burn.  I'd just be prepared for whatever eventuality. 
And, to be safe, I  might run the idea by Woodstock first.  They likely have input.  They would likely run the experiment for you in a safe controlled setting, as they have published on their website that they will try things we ask them to try....Maybe better safe than sorry. 

Will be interesting to see if you have come up with a new idea and an interesting and viable different way to burn....


----------



## Machria

rideau said:


> Will be interesting to see if you have come up with a new idea and an interesting and viable different way to burn....


 
I'm full of good idea!   

Ok, I'll wait for you to try it first!


----------



## rideau

Never one to let the dust settle under my heels, I just called Woodstock and got Mike.  Posed the question. 

He's never heard of anyone trying that, in any situation.  He'll mention it to the guys in back, but they are pretty busy now testing the other stoves (? new stove and redesigned Fireview, I'm guessing?) and don't have a PH rigged for testing at the moment, so it'll take a while to get to it, but they'll let me know the results. 
'
At the moment I'm not feeling really adventurous (read:  too close to cooktop cracking/cat warping during non-adventurous burning), so feel inclined to await Woodstock's results. 

However, if things change, and if I actually cut some wood to the appropriate lengths, and if I decide to go ahead with such a burn (maybe I'll get impatient), and I'm if here to talk about the result (note all the IFs), then I'll post the results.


----------



## Machria

rideau said:


> Never one to let the dust settle under my heels, I just called Woodstock and got Mike. Posed the question.
> 
> He's never heard of anyone trying that, in any situation. He'll mention it to the guys in back, but they are pretty busy now testing the other stoves (? new stove and redesigned Fireview, I'm guessing?) and don't have a PH rigged for testing at the moment, so it'll take a while to get to it, but they'll let me know the results.
> '
> At the moment I'm not feeling really adventurous (read: too close to cooktop cracking/cat warping during non-adventurous burning), so feel inclined to await Woodstock's results.
> 
> However, if things change, and if I actually cut some wood to the appropriate lengths, and if I decide to go ahead with such a burn (maybe I'll get impatient), and I'm if here to talk about the result (note all the IFs), then I'll post the results.


 
Ok, thanks.  I look forward to your posted results tomorrow morning!


----------



## Ashful

Not a Woodstock, but I've run vertical in my stove.  Right now, I'm working thru a bunch of wood bucked by the previous owner of my house, and he cut way too short, like 16" short.  My stove holds 22" splits.  My firebox is also probably 20" tall, so I've often jammed three or four vertical splits in on either side of the main E/W load.  However, it seems those are the occasions where I have the most trouble with stuff off-gassing way to quick, and running into situations where I'm either backpuffing or running hotter than I like, so I've stopped doing it recently.


----------



## rideau

Joful said:


> Not a Woodstock, but I've run vertical in my stove. Right now, I'm working thru a bunch of wood bucked by the previous owner of my house, and he cut way too short, like 16" short. My stove holds 22" splits. My firebox is also probably 20" tall, so I've often jammed three or four vertical splits in on either side of the main E/W load. However, it seems those are the occasions where I have the most trouble with stuff off-gassing way to quick, and running into situations where I'm either backpuffing or running hotter than I like, so I've stopped doing it recently.


 
That is really interesting.  Will have to think through the implications.  Makes me a bit more inclined to heed my instinct and let Woodstock run the experiment...

If you had that problem with a few splits, what happens with a lot that might produce a lot of smoke all at once?  Maybe need more air to prevent back puffing, which might result in a scary hot fire...as in, read inferno....


----------



## Ashful

As with all things woodstove related, experiment small loads first. I can't imagine any advantage in burning an entire load vertical, though.


----------



## Slow1

One concern I would have going vertical is that a piece would more easily fall against the window.  At least with horizontal a rolling log will either hit a wall or the andirons.


----------



## rideau

Joful said:


> As with all things woodstove related, experiment small loads first. I can't imagine any advantage in burning an entire load vertical, though.


 
Given that (a) most of us are burning about 16 inch splits and (b) the stove door is relatively small and makes loading a really full load pretty darn challenging, I suspect one coule get a great deal more wood in the stove if one stood it up and packed it tightly. 

Would be interesting to see heat generated and burn time in such a scenario.  Also, interesting to see if the wood burned differently when set that way.  more surface area on each piece would seemingly be exposed to air....air flow would certainly be different. 

Just interesting.  It would be too much of a pain loading that way to do it on any regular basis.  But, if it had remarkable results, might be soemthing worth doing from a cold or cool start in cold weather.  Just be interesng to find out.

Guess I never got rid of the curiosity bug I and my 12 siblings had that made for  some interesting times for my parents.


----------



## Machria

I have a feeling it will give a really long burn.  The surface of the wood will only have flames/heat going up along it, instead of hitting it directly as when loaded e-w.  You could get alot of wood in there, and allow very little air space in the box.  I have the perfect wood to try it with right now...   I just might try a few splits (2 or 3), loaded standing up in the middle together (tightly) and just see how they burn.  If there is not much burn activity between them (as opposed aroudn the outside of them which will open air), it may tell me I'm on to something!


----------



## Machria

Anyone ever seen this?

Last night, I loaded up 4 med. size splits onto a large hot coal bed.  2 splits were 10 year old cedar dryer than cotton.  The other two splits were perfect 2 year old Maple.  So I had about a 1/2 load maybe.  5 minutes, closed the air down and closed bypass.  About 1/2 to 1` hour later, the stove was dark (no flames), but about every 20 seconds it would explode with a huge blast of flames swirling all around the enitre box, that would alst about 5 seconds.  Then it would go to black and about 20 seconds later (almost like it was timed exactly) it would blast again.  This went on like clock work for a full hour before I gave up watching and went to bed, so I don't know how long this went on for. 

I've seen the 2ndaries come and go before, but not perfectly timed like this for so long....


----------



## rideau

Machria said:


> Anyone ever seen this?
> 
> Last night, I loaded up 4 med. size splits onto a large hot coal bed. 2 splits were 10 year old cedar dryer than cotton. The other two splits were perfect 2 year old Maple. So I had about a 1/2 load maybe. 5 minutes, closed the air down and closed bypass. About 1/2 to 1` hour later, the stove was dark (no flames), but about every 20 seconds it would explode with a huge blast of flames swirling all around the enitre box, that would alst about 5 seconds. Then it would go to black and about 20 seconds later (almost like it was timed exactly) it would blast again. This went on like clock work for a full hour before I gave up watching and went to bed, so I don't know how long this went on for.
> 
> I've seen the 2ndaries come and go before, but not perfectly timed like this for so long....


 
Not uncommon.  On a low burn with the air closed.  Especially when it is warmer out.  Get more flame when it is colder out.


----------



## Waulie

rideau said:


> Not uncommon. On a low burn with the air closed. Especially when it is warmer out. Get more flame when it is colder out.


 
Yup.  I had a completely dark firebox much sooner than normal because it was warm out last night.  Hardly any flame a all after closing down. The cat was certainly going to town though as the stove top was real hot.  In colder weather I almost always get some kind of flames on a good size load.  I had an occasioanl secondary burst last night but I don't think it was on a schedule.  Maybe the stars were aligned for Machria.


----------



## chipsoflyin

I get that quite a bit with warmer outside temps 40+. Open the air a bit and it goes straight to steady secondaries.


----------



## ddddddden

I get the oscillating secondary burn in the Fv.  Dunno the timing and duration, probably not as perfect nor as long.



Machria said:


> I have a feeling it will give a really long burn. The surface of the wood will only have flames/heat going up along it, instead of hitting it directly as when loaded e-w. You could get alot of wood in there, and allow very little air space in the box. I have the perfect wood to try it with right now... I just might try a few splits (2 or 3), loaded standing up in the middle together (tightly) and just see how they burn. If there is not much burn activity between them (as opposed aroudn the outside of them which will open air), it may tell me I'm on to something!


Sounds like how some do with biobricks, etc.  Stack in a big cube to limit the surface area exposed.


----------



## Machria

So how does the outside temp affect the burn?   The only thing I could see changing is the draft I guess.


----------



## rideau

Stronger draft = more oxygen


----------



## Ashful

What you saw, Machria, is the dreaded back-puffing I've so often discussed. Air is leaking into the stove too slow to burn off the gasses coming off the wood, and the stove stalls. After a few seconds, enough air leaks in to hit the critical mixture, and "puff"! Rare to see it on such a small load, though.

Did you smell any smoke pushing out thru the air inlets, as a result? My stove will actually force smoke out thru the door gaskets, and occasionally even lift the top-load door when it really gets going in a cycle. Very exciting.


----------



## rideau

Not a backpuff.  Part of a normal low cat burn.  You may see the coals a bit bright, maybe not.  Stove temps good, cat burning the smoke.  Then every once in a while a lovely wispy cat flame in the firebox.  No puffing, no explosion, no ash flying around.  Just a quiet, gentle wispy flame that travels around the firebox and disappears.


----------



## Machria

No back puffing at all, it was not very violent (pressure wise), just a blast of flames, but the flames were soft rolling flames all around the box.  Definitely was the gasses building up, then burning off, and I've seen this before, just not for so long or so perfectly timed.  I'd swear somebody was opening and closing the air...


----------



## Machria

rideau said:


> Not a backpuff.  Part of a normal low cat burn.  You may see the coals a bit bright, maybe not.  Stove temps good, cat burning the smoke.  Then every once in a while a lovely wispy cat flame in the firebox.  No puffing, no explosion, no ash flying around.  Just a quiet, gentle wispy flame that travels around the firebox and disappears.



Exactly...  You beat me too it.   But it was big flames that filled the box, but not violently.


----------



## Ashful

Yep... I see that all the time. Trouble is, over the course of an hour or two, those cycles often amplify to the behavior I described above. You don't know what happened after you went to bed. 

There is no denying it's the same exact resonant behavior... just a matter of amplitude.


----------



## fox9988

rideau said:


> Not a backpuff. Part of a normal low cat burn. You may see the coals a bit bright, maybe not. Stove temps good, cat burning the smoke. Then every once in a while a lovely wispy cat flame in the firebox. No puffing, no explosion, no ash flying around. Just a quiet, gentle wispy flame that travels around the firebox and disappears.


----------



## Machria

It's amazing to me, how different the burn "viewing" is on each and every load!  Everynight, I get a completely different show to watch, and it's almost always better (even when it's black with no flames!) than the CRAP that is on the 750+ channels of Sattelite TV I have available.  

Last night, about the same load, a large split on the bottom in the back, a med split in the front with two med splits stacked on top, 2 peices of small kindling (1" strip about 12" long) laying in the middle over 1/2 of a Super Cedar.  About 1/4 to 1/2 load and lit it up at 8pm.  8:15 closed the bypass, shut down the air all the way down.  By 9pm the fire was complete out to a small smouldering coal bed at the bottom, stove top was 300-350 (cat going strong), pipe got up to 400 which is rare for me.  I wanted a bit more heat, and a little show to stare at so I opened it up about 1/2 way for 20 seconds.  Instantly a rager of secondaries started, and I shut the air all the way back down.  The secondaries slowed down a little bit, but continued to burn for about an hour, *the pipe indeed went down with the secondaries burning, down 50 to 100* to about 250  to 300*. *

*Somebody asked me about my duct/inline fan* (sorry, forgot who it was?).  Well, it was the smartest thing I did, I installed a duct intake above the stove with an inline fan blowing hot air down to our first floor bedroom.  My oil burner thermastat on the 1st floor is set a 64* now, and rarely comes on when the stove is buring and the inline fan is on.  Our bedroom below the stove is a staying a very comfy 65 to 70 degrees thru the night.  The air coming out the vent is 85 or 90* which is pretty dang cool, no oil burner yet heat blowing out of a duct!

The stove is amazingly controllable and has just a gorgeous burn with un-beleivable amount of heat.  Really happy with it.


----------



## Ashful

fox9988 said:


>




That's exactly what I see! However, when I see that, I know that I'm on the hairy edge of some back-puffing. Imagine that flash-over is just a little bit bigger, and that the resulting expansion cannot push out thru the cat and up the pipe quickly enough to keep pressure at an acceptable level. That's when it pushes out thru the intakes or the door gaskets.

The difference between your stove and mine, in this regard, may be primarily quickly a large volume of exhaust gas can push out thru the cat. Mine has a cross section of 4" x 7", if I recall, and is 2" thick (z-axis).  Perhaps I should start my own thread... unless it's of interest to you Woodstock folk.


----------



## fox9988

I've never had a back puff. I call this a roll-over, achieved by cutting the draft way down on a hot flaming secondary fire.


----------



## ddddddden

Joful said:


> That's exactly what I see! However, when I see that, I know that I'm on the hairy edge of some back-puffing. Imagine that flash-over is just a little bit bigger, and that the resulting expansion cannot push out thru the cat and up the pipe quickly enough to keep pressure at an acceptable level. That's when it pushes out thru the intakes or the door gaskets.
> 
> The difference between your stove and mine, in this regard, may be primarily quickly a large volume of exhaust gas can push out thru the cat. Mine has a cross section of 4" x 7", if I recall, and is 2" thick (z-axis). Perhaps I should start my own thread... unless it's of interest to you Woodstock folk.


Sounds like your cat is about the same size as the one in the Fireview, which is ~30% smaller than the F12. . .maybe that is your problem. The Fv burns like that video of the Keystone. I haven't observed a violent backpuff, but I think Todd had one that lifted the 40-lb lid on his Fv!


----------



## melissa71

I've had my PH backpuff at least twice.  One time it was so strong it forced a puff of smoke up through the bottom of the stove pipe.  Scared the crap out of me.  I don't turn the air down as low as I used to.  I thought the logs were burned down enough to dial it back...I was wrong.   I like to put nice big pieces towards the back to get a long burn, so I think what happened was the stuff in front outgased and burned down, then there wasn't enough air and flame for the stuff in the back.  So there was a build up, then it lit off.  When there aren't any flames licking at the wood, I get nervous.


----------



## Berner

*Somebody asked me about my duct/inline fan* (sorry, forgot who it was?).  Well, it was the smartest thing I did, I installed a duct intake above the stove with an inline fan blowing hot air down to our first floor bedroom.  My oil burner thermastat on the 1st floor is set a 64* now, and rarely comes on when the stove is buring and the inline fan is on.  Our bedroom below the stove is a staying a very comfy 65 to 70 degrees thru the night.  The air coming out the vent is 85 or 90* which is pretty dang cool, no oil burner yet heat blowing out of a duct!




Is this a common thing to do?  I'm yet to install my stove on the first floor but was curious if I could somehow get heat down to the basement.  Does anyone else have a setup like this?


----------



## Machria

I've read a few posts here with people blowing air into other adjacent rooms, but I have not seen any doing what I'm doing.  I had no choice as I'm in an upsidown house (great room upstairs, bedrooms down stairs).


----------



## Machria

*I think I may have developed a serious problem with my install?*

The weather here has been balmy, spring like. It was 50+ degree's last night and today (maybe Al Gore was right after all?). Well, ever since I have let the stove go cold for over 24 hours now, it had been buring since Dec 21st when I installed it. Well, a few hours after it went cold, I herd a very loud and disturbing noise from below my house, from around the garage/utility room. A few minutes later, I then herd an added noise, sounding like a large fan or blower, and yet I did not turn anything on? ? ? ? Even worse, shorly thereafter we started smelling a terrible but familiar burning petroleum type smell all over the house!

Has anyone else experienced this? Any ideas what the problem might be?


----------



## Waulie

I have experienced it and I have a solution for you.  Turn down your thermostat and light a small fire!


----------



## TreeCo

Huntindog1 said:


> Maybe its that with the secondaries firing, your burning up so much of the smoke there is very little left to burn thru the Cat which is up closer to the flue. With out secondaries firing, your feeding the Cat more smoke it will burn much hotter and heat your flue more. The secondary burn is more down in the fire box and maybe your keeping more heat in the box to radiate out the stove.


 
That makes a lot of sense.

Wonder if you can expect to see longer cat life due to the fact that the cat is not run as hard. It would be nice. Love reading about this stove. I've still got the functioning cat and my Riteway model 37 from 1980 stored in the shop.


----------



## fire_man

Machria said:


> I've never seen my top soapstone get above 350, normally it is around 300-325 went hot.
> 
> /quote]
> 
> Machria: What sort of smoke trail out the flue do you see? If my stovetop is pegged at 325 with no secondaries, I will get gray smoke. If there are strong secondaries it's clean. Seems odd your stovetop temp is so low.
> 
> What is your typical draft setting - I'm guessing it's fully closed.


----------



## Waulie

Tony, do you have the new shielded cooktop?  People are reporting lower top soapstone temps with the shielded cooktop but it doesn't seem to affect overall output.  I'm sure Machria has the shielded cooktop since his stove is so new.  That could be the difference.


----------



## fire_man

Waule: Nope, I do not have the shielded cooktop. That makes sense that the temp would be lower with the shield but I thought someone else posted it made little difference to stovetop temps. I am trying to ween myself away from using the stovetop temp to decide  when to engage the cat, and use the rear steel flue plate instead since when I use the cooktop there is no stovetop thermometer.

I guess a cat probe would help, but I hate to introduce another gadget into the mix.


----------



## rideau

Even before I got the new shielded cooktop, I frequently ran a soapstone top read temp of under 350, with a clean cat burn. No smoke from the stack. Flue temp likely around 420.

I suspect the shielded cooktop has a lower temp for cooking than the older cooktop. Have only used it a bit, but it seems to take longer to boil, for instance,. Still quick, but doesn't strike me as being as quick as the old top. Just an impression. Never timed.

I have ICC Excel double wall stovepipe and ultrablack chimney. Just installed a probe thermometer in the flue. Seems to consistently run 3x the magnetic temp reading. I'm planning to use this to gauge when to engage my cat. The stove top mag therm is a pain when the soapstone is up for cooktop use.

I ran a hot fire the other day, at least it looked hot and put out nice heat. But the stovetop only got to 450, while the flue probe read 700 for 4 1/2 hours, then dropped to 600???Strange, the flue was much hotter than it usually is, so I guess I was letting heat go up the chimney. Usually my flue temp goes down immediataely the cat engages. Didn't. Didn't rise, but didn't fall. Read the ICC site and it says (Seemingly contradictorily) that the pipe is fine for continuous operation to 1200, but elsewhere states that normai operating temperaure should be kept between 400 and 550
degrees (if I remember properly...may be 50 degrees higher)

EDIT: checked and the manual recommends 300 to 500 degree F flue temp for best operation, least condensation and least creosote formation, so I was way over that).

Mine definitely was hotter than the latter for a long time. The latter temps may refer to the temps that give the cleanest burn while still getting the most heat into the home with the least going up the flue??

Another point in the manual (WHICH I WISH THE INSTALLER HAD GIVEN ME) is that ICC states that the fLue should be thoroughly swept each season WITHIN 48 HOURS OF SHUTTING THE STOVE DOWN FOR THE SEASON. . Wish I had seen this info a few years ago. Don't know what it implies for someone who burns like I do: I am away from my home for a week to 10 days at a time during the heating season on occasion, and , if the home is vacant, obviously shut the stove down for that time. It is too hot to sweep when leave, and when I get back it is (a) way more than 24 hours after shutting down the stove and (b) chilly, and not a time I fell like, on top of everything else upon a return, sweeping the chimney. I always check the screen, the cat, and clean out ash before relighting the stove, but don't really want to add sweeping the chimney....and it probably would not be helpful this long after shutdown...probably just as good to get it hot again, at this point.

I've never had much in the chimney when it has been swept, but I have gone 2 years, and have not had a creosote problem. So, maybe if you know your stove burns cleanly and you have only light colored soot, then you don't need to worry about the sweeping within 48 hours of shutting down the stove ?

May post a thread on this, because I think it is probably important for people who have issues with creosote build up to sweep right away when shutting down for the season. +


----------



## Waulie

I've been using exterior single wall pipe temps to engage the cat.  I usually run it up to about 300 degrees at 10" above the stove (top vent) before I engage.  I figure the cat absolutely has to be seeing 500+ in that case regardless or cold start or warm start.  It really doesn't make much sense to go by the soapstone temp since it's going to be way different if you're cold starting or warm starting, etc.  My cat lights off every time now now.

My normal top temp highs are in the 400's to 500.  Max with a big load on a cold night is around 550.  But, if I do an all cat smallish load I can cruise at 350 with no flame and no smoke out the chimney.  This is normal shoulder season operation for me.

My exterior pipe temps at 10" above the stove almost always sits right at 320 degrees if the stove is hot.  It rarely changes.  I'm guessing that puts my flue temp somewhere around 500 degrees.  I know they say flue temps are twice the exterior temp on a single wall pipe but I'm sure my measure temps are affected a lot by sitting so close to the hot stove top.  I might try moving the thermo up and to the side of the pipe to what how that changes my readings.

I know HH reported lower top temps with the shielded cooktop (she started that thread on it which still pops up from time to time) and I thought there were others.


----------



## Buck1200

Glad you got the flue probe in R.  400F is the magic number for this stove: close the bypass and air control and the cat always engages.  It also likes to sit at 400F flue for most of the burn, as long as you have more than a half load of wood.  It's weirdly self regulating in that way.

Caveats: I have a lot of draft, and a thermocouple on the cat.

A note: last year's PH had a smaller bypass opening.  From what I understand, those who have split their cooktops (me included) have this smaller opening.  It creates a more concentrated hot spot when starting a fire in bypass mode.  A friend has a new PH with no heat shield, but the wider opening, and has run just fine.  I have a heat shield since replacement, and the response change of the top stone temperature is pretty noticeable.  Stove still heats the same though, and runs the same flue temps.


----------



## Waulie

Wow, great info Buck.  I'm still running the original cooktop and I must have the smaller bypass since I got a very early stove.  I've been running it all this winter.  I wonder if a crack is inevitable or if I'm going to be all right since I've made it this far.


----------



## rideau

I'm running the same stovetop temps in same situation.  Maybe your 320 does convert to 640 or so...in keeping with what I saw with that internal probe thermometer temp.  That internal probe thermometer is really easy to install, and I feel silly I had it sitting on the sofa table for months because I didn't want to put a hole in my pipe....Both ICC and Woodstock told me to install the probe, and I figure they know.  So I knew I should, but...it took a exterior flue temp of 350 degrees to get me to install the probe.  I now know that was about 1050, and perfectly safe for my pipe. 

It is nice to actually know the flue temp.  But I do feel confident that the magnetic therm temp is just about 1/3 the probe. 
Suspect the single wall truely is 1/2 what a probe would be.  The people who are giving the advice seem pretty reliable.


----------



## Waulie

IDK Rideau.  Flue temps at 600 or 700 are pretty darn high!  I tend to believe Buck's 400 way more.  If the PH is really running flue temps near 700 throughout the burn, it is not a particularly efficient stove.  We know this isn't the case.

Are you sure your flue probe is installed properly and not being affected by the radiant heat of the stove?


----------



## Machria

fire_man said:


> Machria: What sort of smoke trail out the flue do you see? If my stovetop is pegged at 325 with no secondaries, I will get gray smoke. If there are strong secondaries it's clean. Seems odd your stovetop temp is so low.
> 
> What is your typical draft setting - I'm guessing it's fully closed.


 
Amazingly, I have never seen any smoke of any kind come out of my chimney since installing the stove. I've checked at the first blast of a cold start, just before engaging the cat, midway thru a cat burn, and at the end of a cat burn when the stove and cat is prolly not hot enough for the cat to be working (even though the bypass is still closed), and in all cases you would not know I was burning anything. Keep in mind, my house is on stilts, and the top of chimney is basically 3 stories up from the ground when I'm looking at it. So maybe I just can't see it close enough cause I'm so far away? I did look at it with binoculars one of those times, in the middle of a burn, and saw nothing. One thing that has struck me with this stove is, I do not smell wood burning outside either. My next door neighbor was very suprised when I told him I've been burning since installing it. He said he always knew when my fireplace was going (he could smell it and see the smoke), but has never smelt the stove burning. He assumed I was not using it yet. I actually expected a strong wood burning smell outside.

My draft setting is ussually open about 1/8 the way (about 1/4" movment of the handle), just open pinch while we are in the room which lets me see a little fire/flame/secondary action. When we go to bed, I close it completelty down.

I have the new heat-shielded cooktop obviously, the stove is only a few weeks old. There is a thin stainless shiled bolted to bottom of it, covering about 60 or 70% of it, mainly direcly over where the cat is. One thing I've been disapointed with in the stove is the temp of the cooktop. I have not tried it yet with a very hot fire going, but with a small to normal/avg size fire, it does not get hot enough.

I wonder if the heat shield keeping the heat on the top down low, is throwing added heat off the sides of the stove, which is contributing to my walls directly off the back corners getting very hot? I should ask Woodstock about that....


----------



## rideau

Buck1200 said:


> Glad you got the flue probe in R. 400F is the magic number for this stove: close the bypass and air control and the cat always engages. It also likes to sit at 400F flue for most of the burn, as long as you have more than a half load of wood. It's weirdly self regulating in that way.
> 
> Caveats: I have a lot of draft, and a thermocouple on the cat.
> 
> A note: last year's PH had a smaller bypass opening. From what I understand, those who have split their cooktops (me included) have this smaller opening. It creates a more concentrated hot spot when starting a fire in bypass mode. A friend has a new PH with no heat shield, but the wider opening, and has run just fine. I have a heat shield since replacement, and the response change of the top stone temperature is pretty noticeable. Stove still heats the same though, and runs the same flue temps.


 Very interesting.  I was not aware of this.  That's a change that can't be retrofitted! Wonder if they will keep both stovetops, or if all will be the new shielded.


----------



## Machria

Waulie said:


> IDK Rideau. Flue temps at 600 or 700 are pretty darn high! I tend to believe Buck's 400 way more. If the PH is really running flue temps near 700 throughout the burn, it is not a particularly efficient stove. We know this isn't the case.


 
Yep, my mag temp on the pipe stays between 200 and 250* almost always thoughout the burn with the cat engaged. Once in a while when the stove gets real hot toward the end of a load (alot of red hot coals in a very deep pile), it will raise up to 300 or 325, but not very often.



Waulie said:


> Are you sure your flue probe is installed properly and not being affected by the radiant heat of the stove?


 
It also can be affected by the radiant heat of the PIPE! So it can measure the actual flue gas temp, PLUS some added heat from the radiant heat bouncing around inside the pipe from the pipe walls themselves, especally in double wall pipe because it has nowhere else to go.

I strictly use the woodstock mag temp gage, about 12" above the stove on my heavy steel stove pipe. When it hits 250, I close the bypass. My stove top (soap) is ussually still 80 or 100* still. But the flue collar area is about 200* at that point. This is with a cold start of course. This takes 10 or 15 min's max. If I waited for the stove top to reach 250 or 300, that could be 2 hours.


----------



## Waulie

You need some cold weather so you can get that stove cranking Machria!


----------



## rideau

Waulie said:


> IDK Rideau. Flue temps at 600 or 700 are pretty darn high! I tend to believe Buck's 400 way more. If the PH is really running flue temps near 700 throughout the burn, it is not a particularly efficient stove. We know this isn't the case.
> 
> Are you sure your flue probe is installed properly and not being affected by the radiant heat of the stove?


 
It is installed properly.
 Never sure of anything.  But, on this particular burn, when I had more wood in the stove than usual, and some very dry wood, the magnetic thermometer was in keeping with the probe reading. 

For my normal two or three large split load (I had 4 on the burn referenced), I had been using the magnetic thermometer to engage the cat, and engaged the cat when the thermometer got to 150, with success.  That would indicate 450 interior flue, I'm believing.  The thermometer would sometimes stop rising, sometimes get up to as much as 200,  but then drop and sit right arounf 140 to 150. 

This last burn mentioned, I was surprised the flue temp stayed so high so long, but the stove put out a lot of heat and had a bright active fire going on for a good five hours, absolutely clear gases out the stack the entire time, relatively low stovetop temps..a really nice fire, but.just sort of wierd and different than anything I had seen before.  I do, though, not infrequently see a magnetic thermometr temp right near or sligtly over 200 the few times I try to burn the stove hot and get stovetop temps of over 500.  I know the ICC pipe is insulated and designed to keep the temp high in the pipe. 

I have my probe installed just below the sliding joint in my adjustable double wall, per Woodstock's recommendation, which puts it just above where the brass piece on the soapstone hits the pipe when the soapstone is up for cooking.  I doubt the probe is going to read any exterior temps, so I doubt radiant heat is a factor in the probe temp.  Don't know about the magnetic thermometer, but I can't believe the air there is as hot as the pipe.  It surely doesn't seem to be.


----------



## rideau

Machria said:


> Amazingly, I have never seen any smoke of any kind come out of my chimney since installing the stove. I've checked at the first blast of a cold start, just before engaging the cat, midway thru a cat burn, and at the end of a cat burn when the stove and cat is prolly not hot enough for the cat to be working (even though the bypass is still closed), and in all cases you would not know I was burning anything. Keep in mind, my house is on stilts, and the top of chimney is basically 3 stories up from the ground when I'm looking at it. So maybe I just can't see it close enough cause I'm so far away? I did look at it with binoculars one of those times, in the middle of a burn, and saw nothing. One thing that has struck me with this stove is, I do not smell wood burning outside either. My next door neighbor was very suprised when I told him I've been burning since installing it. He said he always knew when my fireplace was going (he could smell it and see the smoke), but has never smelt the stove burning. He assumed I was not using it yet. I actually expected a strong wood burning smell outside.
> 
> My draft setting is ussually open about 1/8 the way (about 1/4" movment of the handle), just open pinch while we are in the room which lets me see a little fire/flame/secondary action. When we go to bed, I close it completelty down.
> 
> I have the new heat-shielded cooktop obviously, the stove is only a few weeks old. There is a thin stainless shiled bolted to bottom of it, covering about 60 or 70% of it, mainly direcly over where the cat is. One thing I've been disapointed with in the stove is the temp of the cooktop. I have not tried it yet with a very hot fire going, but with a small to normal/avg size fire, it does not get hot enough.
> 
> I wonder if the heat shield keeping the heat on the top down low, is throwing added heat off the sides of the stove, which is contributing to my walls directly off the back corners getting very hot? I should ask Woodstock about that....


 
The original cooktop got hot at the 325-350 temps.  Guess Woodstock isn't still making the original cooktop.


----------



## rideau

Machria said:


> Yep, my mag temp on the pipe stays between 200 and 250* almost always thoughout the burn with the cat engaged. Once in a while when the stove gets real hot toward the end of a load (alot of red hot coals in a very deep pile), it will raise up to 300 or 325, but not very often.
> 
> 
> 
> It also can be affected by the radiant heat of the PIPE! So it can measure the actual flue gas temp, PLUS some added heat from the radiant heat bouncing around inside the pipe from the pipe walls themselves, especally in double wall pipe because it has nowhere else to go.
> 
> I strictly use the woodstock mag temp gage, about 12" above the stove on my heavy steel stove pipe. When it hits 250, I close the bypass. My stove top (soap) is ussually still 80 or 100* still. But the flue collar area is about 200* at that point. This is with a cold start of course. This takes 10 or 15 min's max. If I waited for the stove top to reach 250 or 300, that could be 2 hours.


 
I'm assuming you have heavy single wall pipe? So, presumably 250 =500, which is the temp the cat should engage at.


----------



## Machria

rideau said:


> I'm assuming you have heavy single wall pipe? So, presumably 250 =500, which is the temp the cat should engage at.


 
Yep.


----------



## Machria

Question, I took out my cat for the 1st time yesterday to check/clean since I had a cold stove (what hte heck, took 10 seconds to pull out).  It was clean as a whistle, looked like the day I got it, just a brownish color what looks like a square rubber thing, with a brown metal honey comb center.  anyway, I was taking of a few pics of he interior of the stove and the bottom of the cooktop... while I had it out, and when I went to stick the cat back in, realized I forgot which direction I pulled it out and placed it down.  After inspecing it, it looks like it doesn't matter, seemed to be no difference in the two sides of the cat so it can go in either way, is that correct?


----------



## Waulie

Yeah, it doesn't matter.  I think WS actually says to switch it every so often so it wears evenly.

Rubber?  What rubber?


----------



## Machria

Waulie said:


> Yeah, it doesn't matter. I think WS actually says to switch it every so often so it wears evenly.
> 
> Rubber? What rubber?


 
Thanks. Isn't the outside rim of it rubber of some sort? I thought it felt like rubber...    I should say silicone, not rubber.


----------



## Waulie

Huh.  Mines not.  It is all metal.


----------



## Huntindog1

Not to change the subject for all of you Woodstock Progress Hybrid owners but......

I am not sure most people understand when Woodstock says this stove has the highest BTU rating EPA tested output of any stove ever tested.

The number is 73,171 btu per hour.

Why is this number special?

Its because the EPA tests use a lower quality wood and to get that number out of that kind of wood is an accomplishment.

When you see high numbers like that on other stoves those are numbers obtained loading the best quality high BTU wood not the kind of wood used for EPA testing.

The EPA tests are standardized government test designed to see how good emissions a stove has with poorer quality wood.


----------



## rideau

Machria said:


> Thanks. Isn't the outside rim of it rubber of some sort? I thought it felt like rubber... I should say silicone, not rubber.


 Mines all metal too.  Is that some kind of caulking that came out with the cat?


----------



## ciccio

fire_man said:


> Waule: Nope, I do not have the shielded cooktop. That makes sense that the temp would be lower with the shield but I thought someone else posted it made little difference to stovetop temps. I am trying to ween myself away from using the stovetop temp to decide when to engage the cat, and use the rear steel flue plate instead since when I use the cooktop there is no stovetop thermometer.
> 
> I guess a cat probe would help, but I hate to introduce another gadget into the mix.


 
I installed the new cook top with the shield and have found that the stove top temps are about 150 degrees less with the shield on...


----------



## siddfynch

ciccio said:


> I installed the new cook top with the shield and have found that the stove top temps are about 150 degrees less with the shield on...


 
My PH should arrive in a few days. I got the cooktop, but don't know what it looks like.

The shield you refer to is different from the rear heat shield, right?
And if it's a cooktop shield, do  I have a choice of removing it before running the stove?


----------



## rideau

The shield is an integral part of the cooktop,  is attached under it, cannot be removed.  It keeps the cast iron from getting hot too quickly.  Don't know if it has an effect on the ultimate temperature of the cooktop.  You could always remove the cooktop, if you don't want to use it and also bought the other soapstone top, which is designed for use without a cooktop.  It's thicker than the stone that comes with the cooktop, for obvious reasons.


----------



## Slow1

siddfynch said:


> My PH should arrive in a few days. I got the cooktop, but don't know what it looks like.
> 
> The shield you refer to is different from the rear heat shield, right?
> And if it's a cooktop shield, do I have a choice of removing it before running the stove?


 
I believe the cooktop shield is inside the stove - i.e attached to the bottom of the cooktop so it is a bit different from the rear shield.

I would advise strongly against removing it as it appears to be a necessary design modification to the stove.  Keep in mind that as WS gets feedback and experience with the PH they will continue to improve it in order to maximize the value of the stove - both heating ability and reliability.


----------



## Machria

siddfynch said:


> My PH should arrive in a few days. I got the cooktop, but don't know what it looks like.
> 
> The shield you refer to is different from the rear heat shield, right?
> And if it's a cooktop shield, do I have a choice of removing it before running the stove?


 
Here is two pictures that will help you. The first shows the cooktop installed, with only the center stone lifted to reveal the center cooktop burner (high heat). You can also lift the right and left side stones, and reveal the Med and Low heat burners if you like. The second photo shows the underside of the cooktop with it removed from the stove to reveal the "cooktop heatshield". The heat shield is the thin stainless peice of metal with 4 bolts fastening it to the underside of the cooktop.

If you don't use the cooktop, that's no problem just leave the top stones down and nobody will ever know it even exists. BUT, if you want to cook some chili on it, just lift up the stone, and head on over to the Progress Hybrid recipe thread:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/recipes-for-the-progress-hybrid.94828/


----------



## binko

How can you run the stove with the cooktop removed. The smoke will come thru the seams between the stones?


----------



## Machria

I think with no cooktop, you get one large piece of stone instead of 3...   But I'm just guessing...


----------



## siddfynch

Machria said:


> Here is two pictures that will help you. The first shows the cooktop installed, with only the center stone lifted to reveal the center cooktop burner (high heat). You can also lift the right and left side stones, and reveal the Med and Low heat burners if you like. The second photo shows the underside of the cooktop with it removed from the stove to reveal the "cooktop heatshield". The heat shield is the thin stainless peice of metal with 4 bolts fastening it to the underside of the cooktop.
> 
> If you don't use the cooktop, that's no problem just leave the top stones down and nobody will ever know it even exists. BUT, if you want to cook some chili on it, just lift up the stone, and head on over to the Progress Hybrid recipe thread:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/recipes-for-the-progress-hybrid.94828/


 
Thanks for the pics, very helpful.  oh, and nice job on that hearth.


----------



## Cross Cut Saw

Machria said:


> I think with no cooktop, you get one large piece of stone instead of 3... But I'm just guessing...


 
If you don't have the cook top you get 3 stones with a thin heat shield below them.  The stones are thicker and have rope gaskets inlaid into them to create a seal so no smoke comes out.

They look exactly the same on top as it does with the cook top.


----------



## Machria

Just finished making and installing a one of a kind "Progress Hybrid Soapstone Clock". Bought a 16" round pizza soapstone from Woodstock, and fabricated a mantle clock out of it. It weighs about 20 lbs, so I had to use a serious hangman mount. Glued on some wooden numbers and painted them black, put lag bolts thru at each # spot, and painted the heads black. The 2 and 10 bolts actually are thru bolted to the mount.


----------



## HotCoals

Pretty fancy there mister..I like it!


----------



## melissa71

That turned out fantastic!  I love it!  What kind of tiles are those in yourhearth and surround?  They're beautiful.


----------



## Ashful

Looking at the two items placed atop the stove, I figure the one on the left is a steamer, although clearly equipped with far more gadgetry than mine (got a pic?).  What's the thing on the right, though?


----------



## melissa71

Joful said:


> Looking at the two items placed atop the stove, I figure the one on the left is a steamer, although clearly equipped with far more gadgetry than mine (got a pic?). What's the thing on the right, though?


 
It's a fan for circulating the heat. I've thought about getting one, but am too cheap.   The blades turn from the heat, so you don't need power to run it.


----------



## Ashful

melissa71 said:


> It's a fan for circulating the heat.



I see it now!  Thanks, Melissa.


----------



## siddfynch

Mine arrived yesterday.  Sitting in back of truck in Mystery Box until I can install next week.  Is it best to move the whole crate onto the exact final spot on my hearth before tearing apart the crate and assembling the legs, etc?


----------



## Machria

melissa71 said:


> That turned out fantastic! I love it! What kind of tiles are those in yourhearth and surround? They're beautiful.


 
Thank you.  The tile, actually "stone" is called Silver Slate.  It's simply a polished slate tile 1/2" thick, and it's very heavy.  The back of them looks exactly like a regular peice of slate as you would put outside on your walkway...    amazing what a difference it makes when they polish it.



Joful said:


> Looking at the two items placed atop the stove, I figure the one on the left is a steamer, although clearly equipped with far more gadgetry than mine (got a pic?). What's the thing on the right, though?


 
Left one is a steamer, pretty neat, the steam comes out of the campfire on it:  http://www.amazon.com/Adirondack-Chair-Stove-Steamer-Black/dp/B007JXWXKQ/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hg_1






Right one as noted is the ECO fan which runs itself off of the heat, it makes no noise and actually moves a fair amount of air:  http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-Stove-and-Accessories/Wood-Stove-Fans/Ecofan-UltrAir









siddfynch said:


> Mine arrived yesterday. Sitting in back of truck in Mystery Box until I can install next week. Is it best to move the whole crate onto the exact final spot on my hearth before tearing apart the crate and assembling the legs, etc?


Sid, oh the wait!!   I had it sitting in the back of my truck for a week also, it hurt to look at the box and not be able to open it!      You should leave it in the create as long as you can during the move.  If the entire box doesn't fit, then you can remove the top part of the box/crate if you must, and leave the bottom part of the crate to grab it with a handtruck...   We uncrated mine a few feet in front of the hearth.  Then lifted it with a fancy handtruck and dropped it into place very carefully while measuring to make sure it was correct.  You can see how we "moved it", still in the box/crate here:   https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...problem-progress-hyrbrid-install-pics.101580/

There is a good video of how to remove the final peices of the pallet on youtube:


Good luck.  Your going to love the stove.


----------



## Waulie

Also, try to bring it in at least 24 hours before you build your first seasoning fire so the cast and stones aren't cold.


----------



## Machria

Waulie said:


> Also, try to bring it in at least 24 hours before you build your first seasoning fire so the cast and stones aren't cold.


 
Great point.  When we brought mine in, those sones were cold for 6 or 8 hours.  Just like it holds the heat, it also holds the cold!


----------



## Machria

I had my first really bad burn last night.  I loaded a decent size load (about 1/2 full), with 2 med splits, and 4 small splits (small 2 or 3" rounds).  I loaded it at 11pm onto a pretty large and hot coal bed.  I shut the air down to about 1/8th open and closed the bypass after only about 3 or 4 minutes.  The wood was very dry, and took off before I even had the door shut.  About 1 hour later (around midnight), the secondaries were blazing al the way across on all 4 rows, and the stove was hotter than I normally have it running (pipe got up to about 350-375).  I check the stove again at 8am, and it was already almost cold, at 140*, with almost no lit coals left, just a larger than normal ash bed left over.  I would have needed a super cedar in there to re-start.  The hosue was still nice and warm, but man that was a fast burn.  It really makes a huge difference on the size of the splits loaded, and how hot the coal bed is.


----------



## Cross Cut Saw

Machria said:


> Just like it holds the heat, it also holds the cold!


 
I've seen someone selling soapstone ice cubes online!

You freeze them and then put them in your whiskey and it doesn't water it down...


----------



## Waulie

Machria said:


> I had my first really bad burn last night. I loaded a decent size load (about 1/2 full), with 2 med splits, and 4 small splits (small 2 or 3" rounds). I loaded it at 11pm onto a pretty large and hot coal bed. I shut the air down to about 1/8th open and closed the bypass after only about 3 or 4 minutes. The wood was very dry, and took off before I even had the door shut. About 1 hour later (around midnight), the secondaries were blazing al the way across on all 4 rows, and the stove was hotter than I normally have it running (pipe got up to about 350-375). I check the stove again at 8am, and it was already almost cold, at 140*, with almost no lit coals left, just a larger than normal ash bed left over. I would have needed a super cedar in there to re-start. The hosue was still nice and warm, but man that was a fast burn. It really makes a huge difference on the size of the splits loaded, and how hot the coal bed is.


 
That would only be a bad burn if it wasn't nice and cold out!  If it is cold, put more wood in and you'll still have nice coals after 12 hours.  If it is warmish out, burn the coals down a bit before loading the half load.  With super dry wood and a ton of coals, it can be tough to burn real low.


----------



## Ashful

Machria said:


> It really makes a huge difference on the size of the splits loaded, and how hot the coal bed is.


 
I reserve the small splits for the after work evening fire, when I want to burn fast to get the house heated back up and have it burn out inside of 3 - 4 hours, so I can then load the big splits for the overnight load.



Cross Cut Saw said:


> I've seen someone selling soapstone ice cubes online!  You freeze them and then put them in your whiskey and it doesn't water it down...


 
Got 'em... mostly a gimmick, but they were a gift.  I do occasionally use them, if I plan to be nursing a glass (Balvenie or McCallan) to matter.


----------



## Slow1

Machria said:


> I had my first really bad burn last night. I loaded a decent size load (about 1/2 full), with 2 med splits, and 4 small splits (small 2 or 3" rounds). I loaded it at 11pm onto a pretty large and hot coal bed. I shut the air down to about 1/8th open and closed the bypass after only about 3 or 4 minutes. The wood was very dry, and took off before I even had the door shut. About 1 hour later (around midnight), the secondaries were blazing al the way across on all 4 rows, and the stove was hotter than I normally have it running (pipe got up to about 350-375). I check the stove again at 8am, and it was already almost cold, at 140*, with almost no lit coals left, just a larger than normal ash bed left over. I would have needed a super cedar in there to re-start. The hosue was still nice and warm, but man that was a fast burn. It really makes a huge difference on the size of the splits loaded, and how hot the coal bed is.


 
I'm curious about your stove top temps during that burn.  I don't know my pipe temps very well as I have double wall and although I do keep track of the surface temp (it runs about 160-180 most of the time) I don't have a probe.  However, what you describe (including having a warm home) is about what I would expect from each of my burns.  Perhaps it is all down to my split sizes...


----------



## Machria

Slow, not sure what your asking?   The stove ALWAYS heats well, I never have a problem with that, in fact it's way overkill for my room, but that is a good thing I think.  I just make smaller fire and/or open some windows if we are baking.  

What I meant by "bad burn" was it was much shorter that I expected or have been getting.  I get overnight 8 to 12hour burns without trying.  I have yet to load this stove up.  

My stove to is usually around 300 when the stove is cranking.  I did not check for that "bad" burn


----------



## Slow1

Machria said:


> Slow, not sure what your asking? The stove ALWAYS heats well, I never have a problem with that, in fact it's way overkill for my room, but that is a good thing I think. I just make smaller fire and/or open some windows if we are baking.
> 
> What I meant by "bad burn" was it was much shorter that I expected or have been getting. I get overnight 8 to 12hour burns without trying. I have yet to load this stove up.
> 
> My stove to is usually around 300 when the stove is cranking. I did not check for that "bad" burn


 
I was asking what the stovetop temps were during that particular burn.  I'm curious to know if they are the same as I typically get - i.e. in the 350 range for the majority of the time with a spike to 550 on occasion (measured on the cast iron to the right of the flue exit - vertical flue here).

And I agree - I too am getting great heat from the stove even if my normal burns sound more like your 'bad' one, but all in all it seems I'm burning wood at about the same rate as I did with the FV and the house is warmer...


----------



## Machria

Gotcha, I wasn't monitoring the temp that night.

On another note, the stove just scared the bejesus out of us, I loaded it with 2 spirits and 3 or 4 small chunks/uglies on top.  Chared them for a few minutes and they took off big time, so I closed the bypass and shut the air all the way down.  The fire quickly went down, with some light secondaries, and about 1/2 hour later it was dark, just some red hot spots on the bottom of the pile burning....    About 20 min's later we had a loud "puuuuuufff", and the firebox was like a gas chamber in hell!  It was pretty loud, not just like a normal gas light off, this was a big one.  Woke my wife up, sleeping on the couch.  I noticed the pipe temp was a lot higher than or,al, up around 450 which I rarely hit.  I did not see any smoke come out anywhere, but I did smell a bit of wood smell afterward.

These puffs/small explosions really, normal and occur often...?


----------



## ddddddden

> These puffs/small explosions really, normal and occur often...?


It happens. . .not sure how often in the PH.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/progress-backpuff.80000/



> . . .so I closed the bypass and shut the air all the way down. The fire quickly went down, with some light secondaries, and about 1/2 hour later it was dark, just some red hot spots on the bottom of the pile burning. . .


 
If you want it to happen less often, don't shut the air down so much. Leave more flame in the firebox to prevent gas buildup.


----------



## rideau

Yes, after you completely close the air, immediately just barely crack it open.

A good puff can make the entire pipe/chimney assembly rattle. Not fun.


----------



## Ashful

After complaining about my own back puffing woes, I received replies and PMs from a few PH owners, that they've had the same trouble.  Perhaps this stove is very prone to back puffing.


----------



## Slow1

I had a lot of puffing at first as well.  I believe that my change in habits to more slowly reduce the air and to keep the air open a crack, especially when it is warmer out (lower draft days), has pretty much eliminated them for me.  Mind you I never had any really violent ones like I've heard described here (i.e. never heard them out of the room or had pipes rattle etc).

I tried to run the PH like I did the FV at first - that was a mistake.  While the PH is very forgiving/adjustable on the air settings, I don't think I can just 'heat it up and slam it down to where I want it after engaging the cat' like I did with the FV.  I have found that engaging the cat, then waiting a few minutes before reducing the air about 1/2 way to final destination, then wait a few more minutes and then moving it down again to final setting works much better.  I almost always run with the air fully closed with the PH which is weird in a way - I 'set the burn temp' by letting it run up hotter before closing the air down fully.  Where I get caught doing this during the day if the temps rise significantly and I'm trying to run very low temps - then I have to remember to not shut the air all the way.


----------



## Machria

ddddddden said:


> It happens. . .not sure how often in the PH.
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/progress-backpuff.80000/
> 
> If you want it to happen less often, don't shut the air down so much. Leave more flame in the firebox to prevent gas buildup.


 
Will check out that thread. thanks....   going to try leaving air open a bit more....



rideau said:


> Yes, after you completely close the air, immediately just barely crack it open.
> 
> A good puff can make the entire pipe/chimney assembly rattle. Not fun.


 
Yep, it was a pretty good rattle!  Makes sense, we are starving the fire, and the gases build up, and a spark comes along and"Pooooooooooof"!




Joful said:


> After complaining about my own back puffing woes, I received replies and PMs from a few PH owners, that they've had the same trouble. Perhaps this stove is very prone to back puffing.


 
You had it occur with the Firelight 12, or do you also have a PH?




Slow1 said:


> I had a lot of puffing at first as well. I believe that my change in habits to more slowly reduce the air and to keep the air open a crack, especially when it is warmer out (lower draft days), has pretty much eliminated them for me. Mind you I never had any really violent ones like I've heard described here (i.e. never heard them out of the room or had pipes rattle etc).
> 
> I tried to run the PH like I did the FV at first - that was a mistake. While the PH is very forgiving/adjustable on the air settings, I don't think I can just 'heat it up and slam it down to where I want it after engaging the cat' like I did with the FV. I have found that engaging the cat, then waiting a few minutes before reducing the air about 1/2 way to final destination, then wait a few more minutes and then moving it down again to final setting works much better. I almost always run with the air fully closed with the PH which is weird in a way - I 'set the burn temp' by letting it run up hotter before closing the air down fully. Where I get caught doing this during the day if the temps rise significantly and I'm trying to run very low temps - then I have to remember to not shut the air all the way.


 
I think I've gotten a bit lazy, when I first started I was slowly bringing the air down in increments, lately I've been charing the wood and then shutting it down in one swoop.  I'll have to go back to a gradual reduction of air in a few steps and see how it goes....


----------



## fire_man

I've had 2-3 major backpuffs that scared the *&%@_(@ out of my alleged dog. The trick is to:

1. Make sure anti-burp hole is open between the adirons
2. Don't engage the cat too soon, make sure the flue outlet temp is north of 250F


----------



## Ashful

Machria said:


> You had it occur with the Firelight 12, or do you also have a PH?


 
No PH's here... I can't deal with the side loading in my location. One of my two Firelight 12's has this problem, the other apparently not. The one that does it is on a shorter chimney (roughly 13 - 15 feet), and the one that does not do it is on a taller chimney 27'ish feet. I'd be interested in knowing the chimney heights of the folks who have this problem with the PH, as I suspect that's a big factor.

In my particular case, two stoves of the same model, but the one with the problem is early in the model series, and the one that does not is late in the model series. Perhaps there's some small difference in their design or history, but I do suspect the chimney height is the dominant variable.

As fire_man stated, delaying cat engagement is a big factor. If you engage before the wood is completely charred over, the likelihood of backpuff seems much higher. I've been recently running the stove up to 500'ish with the air wide open, then reducing the air to 50% to let it burn longer for complete charring without overheating the stove and flue, before I engage the cat.


----------



## Machria

fire_man said:


> I've had 2-3 major backpuffs that scared the *&%@_(@ out of my alleged dog. The trick is to:
> 
> 1. Make sure anti-burp hole is open between the adirons
> 2. Don't engage the cat too soon, make sure the flue outlet temp is north of 250F


 
1.  Where is the "anit-burp" hole?  and what is it?  Never noticed anything in there...?
2.  I always wait for 250 - 300.



Joful said:


> I'd be interested in knowing the chimney heights of the folks who have this problem with the PH, as I suspect that's a big factor.


 
Mine is 15', maybe 16' from top of sove to cap on chimney, straight up.


----------



## TheBean

Machria said:


> 1. Where is the "anit-burp" hole? and what is it? Never noticed anything in there...?
> 2. I always wait for 250 - 300.
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is 15', maybe 16' from top of sove to cap on chimney, straight up.


The "anti-burp" hole is located between the andirons near the base of the stove (inside the firebox). It is designed to feed a small amount of air directly to the base of the fire. ~1/4" in diameter.


----------



## rideau

fire_man said:


> I've had 2-3 major backpuffs that scared the *&%@_(@ out of my alleged dog. The trick is to:
> 
> 1. Make sure anti-burp hole is open between the adirons
> 2. Don't engage the cat too soon, make sure the flue outlet temp is north of 250F


 
Yes. Although I do scoop the ashes away from that annoyingly placed hole, I always forget to mention it. Just do it instinctively at this point. Part of raking the coals forward.

The hole can be hard to see. When the fire is going, if the hole is clear, you can see flame coming up from the hole.

I haven't had many back puffs.  Have had a few.  The first was because I wasn't familiar with the stove.  The others have been my fault.  I am capable of learning.  No problem with the stove design....just can't assume it is a Fireview.  There is a short primary learning curve.  It is easy to run.


----------



## rideau

Joful said:


> No PH's here... I can't deal with the side loading in my location. One of my two Firelight 12's has this problem, the other apparently not. The one that does it is on a shorter chimney (roughly 13 - 15 feet), and the one that does not do it is on a taller chimney 27'ish feet. I'd be interested in knowing the chimney heights of the folks who have this problem with the PH, as I suspect that's a big factor.
> 
> In my particular case, two stoves of the same model, but the one with the problem is early in the model series, and the one that does not is late in the model series. Perhaps there's some small difference in their design or history, but I do suspect the chimney height is the dominant variable.
> 
> As fire_man stated, delaying cat engagement is a big factor. If you engage before the wood is completely charred over, the likelihood of backpuff seems much higher. I've been recently running the stove up to 500'ish with the air wide open, then reducing the air to 50% to let it burn longer for complete charring without overheating the stove and flue, before I engage the cat.


 
Tall chimney.


----------



## siddfynch

Looks like I'm going to ave to buy my first cord if I want reasonably seasoned wood. Best deal I can find is splits cut 14"-15". 

I seem to recall a discussion of short wood being undesirable, but cannot find it.  Any reason to pay more for longer lengths?


----------



## Machria

Nothing wrong with except your not going to get to stuff it full unless you have some small filler chunks and uglies...  I burn 12 and 14" splits with no problem.  I also have some 20-22" really dry stuff I can pack in that does fine as well.

All my new stuff is being split at 18-20".

I'm still waiting for somebody to try stuffing it wit an up/down load.  That is, short splits standing on end, curious how they would burn.


----------



## Machria

Machria said:


> Me too!! I WILL make pizze IN the progress!  It's just a matter of how...


 
Like I said, I WILL make pizza in the PH!   Scroll on down to post #25! 
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/recipes-for-the-progress-hybrid.94828/#post-1250459

Delicious!


----------



## Machria

*Wood Fired Tandory Asparagas Chicken:*

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/recipes-for-the-progress-hybrid.94828/page-2

Come and get it fella's!


----------



## dhumohr

Machria said:


> *Wood Fired Tandory Asparagas Chicken:*
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/recipes-for-the-progress-hybrid.94828/page-2
> 
> Come and get it fella's!


----------



## dhumohr

Thanks for ALL the information that's been posted here--we won't be getting our PH till next heating season, but what we've read here has made our choice pretty easy!  I've read all 18 pages of this thread and learned so much.  Love your recipe Machria and can't wait to try it--unfortunately it will have to wait till next year, sigh....  

I'm wondering if there's anyone who lives near Rochester, NY, who would be willing for us to come see their stove?  We're definitely going to the factory to see the stoves made, but it would be SO nice to actually see one physically now--could you tell I'm feeling pretty impatient?  

We have an old farmhouse with not much insulation and are currently burning in a Lopi Endeavor.  It's our second one and it's been a little workhorse, but it's just not big enough to heat the whole first floor (about 1000 sq ft), and it's an up and down thing with temps--either we're really HOT or it gets too cool, and we have to fill it 4 or 5 times a day, so we're looking forward to the soapstone experience--AND the PH experience!  I spent a couple of days in a soapstone heated house a week ago, and I was amazed that it heated both downstairs and upstairs equally well, needed to be filled only twice a day, with a small load in the afternoon, and didn't need to be cleaned out at all during the time I was there.  It wasn't a Woodstock though, and I only found the Woodstock site because I googled "soapstone stoves".  I'm so glad I did.

I talked to them at Woodstock and they said that it would have no trouble handling 22" splits--has this been true?  I thought we should have our wood cut to 20-21" just to be sure they would fit, but what's been your experience?  I know you guys like big thick splits, but Mike told me that 4-5" would allow more to fit in and wouldn't shorten the length of the burn much at all.  Again, what's been your experience?  We'll be getting wood from a guy who cuts and splits for a living so we can have him do the wood to our specs--we want to get started soon buying the wood, so we'd appreciate your advice.


----------



## fire_man

dhumohr said:


> I talked to them at Woodstock and they said that it would have no trouble handling 22" splits--has this been true?  I thought we should have our wood cut to 20-21" just to be sure they would fit, but what's been your experience?  I know you guys like big thick splits, but Mike told me that 4-5" would allow more to fit in and wouldn't shorten the length of the burn much at all.  Again, what's been your experience?  We'll be getting wood from a guy who cuts and splits for a living so we can have him do the wood to our specs--we want to get started soon buying the wood, so we'd appreciate your advice.



I found the 22" splits were a little too long, especially if they are thick splits and if used on the bottom. I would aim for 20-21" and those always work.

Actually, I am starting to always go with 16" splits and when it's really cold I load short splits (10" or so) NS near the door.


----------



## Backwoods Savage

Mike is correct. And if you prefer a 20" or 21" length, you'll never notice the difference in a couple inches so cut away! 

To contact someone in your area or perhaps somewhere along your route to Woodstock, just give Mike another call and perhaps he can line you up with a present owner. Realize that not all would welcome strangers into their homes but many will. We went to someone's home to see the Woodstock Fireview before we bought and are very happy that we did. It was a great learning experience. 

Going to the Woodstock factory is a grand experience. You'll meet several great folks and will like what you see in the factory. That part is super because you can see how the stove is actually put together by craftsmen. Have some fun while there too! Good luck.


----------



## rideau

I find 22 inch fits in fine, but it can be heavy, and if you have any coals in the stove and push them along the bottom with end of the split, then a 22 inch won't fit. 

I like having 20- 22 inch splits, because it is less cutting for me.  But I also like having 12 inch splits to load N/S, 16 inch splits for warmer days when I don't need as much heat, and 18 inch for the convenience. 

SO, I would say that whatever length your preference is, keeping in mind the different scenarios AND who will be loading the stove, will wok fine, anywhere from 12 to 22 inches.  If your wife will be loading the stove much, she may find large 22 inch splits heavy for loading.   
I also like having a large split at the bottom back of the stove for the overnight burn, but the door does restrict loading if you use many large splits or rounds.  Probably good to have a mix, with maybe 10-20 % smaller(3-4), 30% fairly large(6-8), and the remainder moderate (4-6 inch). 

I know there is a PH owner near Watertown, but I think that is still several hours from you? And HollowHill is near Cooperstown, but that is even further for you, I think?  Do check with Woodstock.  May be owners in Rochester or Syracuse.


----------



## dhumohr

fire_man said:


> I found the 22" splits were a little too long, especially if they are thick splits and if used on the bottom. I would aim for 20-21" and those always work.
> 
> Actually, I am starting to always go with 16" splits and when it's really cold I load short splits (10" or so) NS near the door.


Wondering why you're going with the 16" splits?  Because of weight?  Easier to pack in?


----------



## smokedragon

kingquad said:


> Make it as big as an Equinox, and it would be my dream stove. 6in flue of course



If that were the case, I would already have one pre-ordered


----------



## fire_man

A bunch of reasons why I like 16" splits::

1. When I'm scrounging wood, 16" rounds are easier to haul from long distances to my house.
2. 16" lengths are very easy to pack tight in the stove, especially towards the top. 22" can be a pain to pack tight, especially if they are not perfectly straight.
3. I can still fill the box on very cold nights by filling the door area N/S with shorter splits.
4. Wife appreciates the smaller pieces when she loads the stove.
5. 22" splits just get annoying to stack and carry inside.


I'm just not seeing how the huge splits really benefit me that much.


----------



## dhumohr

rideau said:


> I find 22 inch fits in fine, but it can be heavy, and if you have any coals in the stove and push them along the bottom with end of the split, then a 22 inch won't fit.
> 
> I like having 20- 22 inch splits, because it is less cutting for me.  But I also like having 12 inch splits to load N/S, 16 inch splits for warmer days when I don't need as much heat, and 18 inch for the convenience.
> 
> SO, I would say that whatever length your preference is, keeping in mind the different scenarios AND who will be loading the stove, will wok fine, anywhere from 12 to 22 inches.  If your wife will be loading the stove much, she may find large 22 inch splits heavy for loading.
> I also like having a large split at the bottom back of the stove for the overnight burn, but the door does restrict loading if you use many large splits or rounds.  Probably good to have a mix, with maybe 10-20 % smaller(3-4), 30% fairly large(6-8), and the remainder moderate (4-6 inch).
> 
> I know there is a PH owner near Watertown, but I think that is still several hours from you? And HollowHill is near Cooperstown, but that is even further for you, I think?  Do check with Woodstock.  May be owners in Rochester or Syracuse.



Thanks for the info about the 22 inch split.  Guess it would be good to have some of each length, as you said, for different situations.  In regard to the carrying and loading, we're both women who will be loading the stove--and carrying wood up the outside stairs and into the house.  We can handle bunches of the 16 and 17 inch ones just fine, but maybe 19 or 20 would be better than 21 or 22.  I went to a dealer near us who carried Hearthstone and picked his brain, and also hefted some 20 inch splits, about 5-6", and they were pretty heavy.  I'm thinking average of 19 inch splits 4-5" would work out pretty well, and then some of the other lengths.  When you lay the short splits NS, it seems you need 16-17 inch splits in order to have the room to fill in?

Cooperstown is closer than Watertown to us but still about 3 to 3 1/2 hours--closer than New Hampshire, though, to first see the stove.  I was surprised to see that the Hearthstone Heritage was so small.  The size of the Equinox was more what we had in mind, and actually I think that would have been a better size.  But we are totally committed to Woodstock after reading about the quality of the stoves and the incredibly good customer service.  There hasn't been even one owner that we've read reviews from who wasn't completely satisfied.  And usually the unhappy people are the ones who are most vocal.  If HollowHill is on the forum and reads this, maybe he might consider letting us see his PH.  But I will follow the suggestion to talk with Mike at Woodstock to see if there might be someone closer who would consider showing off their PH.


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## rideau

Hollow Hill is very much a she, and I'm sure she'll see this and respond.


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## Flamestead

dhumohr said:


> ...snip...
> I talked to them at Woodstock and they said that it would have no trouble handling 22" splits--has this been true?  I thought we should have our wood cut to 20-21" just to be sure they would fit, but what's been your experience?  I know you guys like big thick splits, but Mike told me that 4-5" would allow more to fit in and wouldn't shorten the length of the burn much at all....snip



We got our PH in early 2012 and had to burn that winter's 18" wood and then another full winter before finally getting into longer wood. This year we have 20"+, and put a couple of cords of that through the PH before we switched to testing the new stove. I was quite surprised at how easily the PH took the full 22" - this is a clear advantage of an end-loader versus a front-loader. If the person is accurate at cutting the wood, I'd go for 20-21". My wood is cut for 20" and I plan to stay there because my woodbox won't take 22". We didn't do any N/S burning in the PH, but I've enjoyed doing it with the Ideal Steel.

The difference between 18" and 20" is noticeable when carrying a load in, but my wife and daughters do just fine handling it (4" splits), and I wouldn't want to give up that 10% of a load by handling shorter wood again.


----------



## Berner

When loading north south don't you guys find that the splits end up against the glass?   The andirons have been to effective to try anything but an east west load for me.


----------



## rideau

No.  Have not had the splits against the glass.


----------



## Slow1

I've even loaded a few short splits vertically to fill the stove.  I have some 21" splits drying but won't be burning them for another 2 years...  Yeah, I should have planned ahead better eh?  In the meantime I burn my mostly 16" splits and fill in the space with the smaller pieces and chunks.  When I have a set of short (10"?) pieces I put them in N/S or vertical at the door.  

On the cooking front - at Christmas we roasted some chestnuts in the stove.  Full bed of coals and a small cast iron pan made it work well.  Had to pull it out a couple times as they were getting too hot, but all in all it worked quite well.


----------



## Waulie

I aim for 19" long splits.  That gives me wiggle room for inexact cuts and makes it a bit easier to fully load the stove.  While 22" works, I wouldn't want most of my splits to be that long unless I was around more and didn't need to fully load the stove very often.  This brutally cold winter, I've fully packing the stove very often and appreciate the wiggle room.  Since I usually eyeball my cutting lengths, I'd say 95% of my splits are 18 to 20" long.


----------



## logger

Since I will be picking up a PH in the near future, Im just wondering what types of stoves you guys and gals were previously running and the difference you get from your PH.  Im obviously looking for an upgrade from our Oslo.  Its been a wonderful stove, but this winter I really had to push it hard with the cold weather we experienced and Im hoping the PH can do a better job.  So far, it sounds like it will fit my criteria 
FYI- I have a 2000 sq ft log home with good insulation and just under 20 ft of straight pipe going up my cathedral ceiling.  I think the PH will be a great addition to the home.


----------



## smokedragon

fire_man said:


> A bunch of reasons why I like 16" splits::
> 
> 1. When I'm scrounging wood, 16" rounds are easier to haul from long distances to my house.
> 2. 16" lengths are very easy to pack tight in the stove, especially towards the top. 22" can be a pain to pack tight, especially if they are not perfectly straight.
> 3. I can still fill the box on very cold nights by filling the door area N/S with shorter splits.
> 4. Wife appreciates the smaller pieces when she loads the stove.
> 5. 22" splits just get annoying to stack and carry inside.
> 
> 
> I'm just not seeing how the huge splits really benefit me that much.



I always cut mine 16" regardless of the stove.  The reason being that three 16" stacks make a 4' wide stack (a cord).  They are easier to split (since I exclusively split by hand), they are easier to carry.

I have split some 20 - 24" wood, and it is a lot harder.  Now if I had a hydro splitter, I would feel differently.

Also, when you get offered a 20 - 30" diameter tree, cutting the rounds at 22" makes them too heavy to pick up, where 16" is a real challenge (especially at that larger diameter).

We cut some oak a few weeks ago, and a friend decided to "help" me.  He cut a 22" diameter oak tree 22" long.  We weighed it, and it came in at 153lbs.  That is a little to much to be hefting up on to the trailer on a regular basis.  The same tree cut to 16" long, the rounds weighed in at 110.  Still heavy, but a big difference.


----------



## fire_man

I agree with everything smokedragon snorted.

But I will say I enjoy that UGG UGG feeling of loading giant 22" splits!


----------



## smokedragon

If I ever get a hydraulic splitter, I may try a little longer split.........Between my wood pile and my grandparents, I split 9 cord by hand last year.  Those 22" splits get old after a while.  I am trying to get ahead this year, and will be on track to split 16 cord.  I have already split and stacked 4 cord since new years day.  

Besides, that UGG UGG feeling is what makes my wife NOT load the stove.


----------



## Waulie

Yeah, it really depends on your situation.  I split by hand, but I'm splitting probably 90% ash which splits easily anyway.  I've never noticed a few inches making it much harder. It's also less cutting.  I think the right answer for the PH is 16 to 22 inches.  It is really nice having the flexibility! Even though I "aim" for 19", I do have a few set aside that are over 22" and I'll burn those diagonally if the weather ever warms up.  Every once in a awhile, I measure down the length of the tree and mark my cuts for accuracy but I can't seem to get the in habit of doing it for every tree.  I will say that having some nice, big 22" splits packed tight can't be beat for long, long heat.  It's just a pain to pack them tight.  I guess having a bit of a mix is really the way to go from my standpoint.  See, I just rationalized not measuring my cuts!


----------



## smokedragon

BrowningBAR said:


> Because, looking at the chart a user will look at it and say, "oh, the Fireview will provide more heat than an Equinox."


The fireview will provide more heat than the equinox (if both fireboxes are 50% full of douglas fir).

But the fireview will be burned out in 2 hours and the equinox will be burned out in 15 hours.

The problem I see with this data, and this argument, is the difference between BTU, and BTU/hour.

Just because a stove has a larger firebox, doesn't mean it will provide more BTU.  What it means is it will provide longer burn times.

If the equinox peaks at 38,000 BTU, but can provide that for 15 hours & the fireview peaks at 45,000 BTU and can provide that for 4 hours.......then it makes more sense which one to select.

I wish the EPA would give how long each stove burned in each of their four settings (low, medium low, medium high, and wide open).  That would add a WHOLE LOT of context to these numbers.


----------



## Backwoods Savage

I'm not really sure why but I keep seeing that 45,000 btu on the Fireview. Where did that come from? If you look at the specs, you will see the maximum output is 55,000 rather than 45,000. However, we also keep seeing that folks burn it at only 500-550 stove top and for some reason or another they seem to fear burning it hotter. In our home we have no problem getting that thing up to near the maximum and at times at the maximum recommended. The stove was designed to run at 55,000 max so why not use it that way if the heat is needed and this winter, no doubt many have needed that amount of heat. Okay, rant over.


----------



## smokedragon

Backwoods Savage said:


> we also keep seeing that folks burn it at only 500-550 stove top and for some reason or another they seem to fear burning it hotter.



Out of curiosity, how hot do you burn it (stove top temp)?  I really have wondered just how hard someone has pushed these soapstone stoves in this awful cold winter.  That has been my one real holdback with woostock.  Many of the steel stoves have lifetime warranties, and I am familiar with a steel stove.  Their warranty is much shorter, and I am very unfamiliar with soapstone/cast iron stove.  I have real concerns about cracking the stone, messing up a seam, having to rebuild the stove, etc.

Would love to get some details since it sounds like you pushed your fireview to its limit this winter.



Machria said:


> Right one as noted is the ECO fan which runs itself off of the heat, it makes no noise and actually moves a fair amount of air



I have thought about an eco fan........have you run with and without?  What do you think of it?

Chris


----------



## Backwoods Savage

Chris, not only this winter but we have run our stove every winter in the 600-700 range but we do try to keep about 680 as the top end and have been successful in that. Many times even in the fall when we load only maybe 3 splits we get the stove top over 600. It is designed for up to 700 so it does no harm to run it like that. I have heard of some others having to change out the scoop as it had warped but we've made no changes so I have no idea how they did what they did but suspect it was done when warming up a cold stove. 

On the eco fan, I did one time cave in to humor my wife with an eco fan. I think it went back within 2 days as it turned out to be nothing more than a toy. It does move some air but not much. It would work in a tent or a very small room but one has to keep in mind that it is better to move the cool air into the warm air rather than the other way around. There is a very good reason for that too.


----------



## rideau

Woodstock has a 6 month money back warranty, but believe me, they stand behind their stoves.  If you had a problem from any kind of defect, or design failure, they would cover it.  Nothing really happens to these stoves.  If you ever need new gaskets or whatever, the cost is absolutely minimal...a few dollars.  If you crack a piece of soapstone, it is pretty easy to replace, and not terribly expensive. They'll mail it out to you the same day.  I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Woodstock because of concern about warranty or the company standing behind their product.


----------



## Flamestead

logger said:


> Since I will be picking up a PH in the near future, Im just wondering what types of stoves you guys and gals were previously running and the difference you get from your PH. ...snip...



We came to the PH from a pre-EPA Tempwood. A nice stove in its own right, but not half the stove the PH is, in any regard except perhaps ease of starting. We had to clean the flue monthly previously; now we clean it two or three times a winter (mostly due to making us fell better than due to need), the stove stays hotter longer, and is much more efficient (more heat per piece of wood handled). I suspect you will love the PH.


----------



## logger

Flamestead said:


> We came to the PH from a pre-EPA Tempwood. A nice stove in its own right, but not half the stove the PH is, in any regard except perhaps ease of starting. We had to clean the flue monthly previously; now we clean it two or three times a winter (mostly due to making us fell better than due to need), the stove stays hotter longer, and is much more efficient (more heat per piece of wood handled). I suspect you will love the PH.


Thanks for the input.


----------



## BrowningBAR

smokedragon said:


> Just because a stove has a larger firebox, doesn't mean it will provide more BTU.  What it means is it will provide longer burn times.
> 
> If the equinox peaks at 38,000 BTU, but can provide that for 15 hours & the fireview peaks at 45,000 BTU and can provide that for 4 hours.......then it makes more sense which one to select.


A larger stove can provide more heat than a smaller stove. The equinox at 600 puts out more heat than a Fireview at 600.


----------



## JA600L

What kind of burn times can you get out of a cat stove when its zero degrees outside? My thinking is the hybrids probably perform the same as a cat stove when it is very cold, but the cat stove extends burn time when temps are milder.


----------



## Ashful

BrowningBAR said:


> A larger stove can provide more heat than a [smaller] stove. The equinox at 600 puts out more heat than a Fireview at 600.


I know what you're saying, BAR, but you might want to fix your typo.

What BAR's getting at is, given the same material and surface temperature, the radiated heat is proportional to surface area.  Bigger stove = more surface area.  You just need proportionally more fuel per hour to get it to the same temperature (overcoming greater radiation losses).  Either way, it comes down to fuel per hour x efficiency.  The stove size is sort of outside the equation.


----------



## BrowningBAR

Joful said:


> I know what you're saying, BAR, but you might want to fix your typo.
> 
> What BAR's getting at is, given the same material and surface temperature, the radiated heat is proportional to surface area.  Bigger stove = more surface area.  You just need proportionally more fuel per hour to get it to the same temperature (overcoming greater radiation losses).  Either way, it comes down to fuel per hour x efficiency.  The stove size is sort of outside the equation.


Yep. Typed larger twice.


----------



## BrowningBAR

JA600L said:


> What kind of burn times can you get out of a cat stove when its zero degrees outside? My thinking is the hybrids probably perform the same as a cat stove when it is very cold, but the cat stove extends burn time when temps are milder.


Depends upon the insulation, layout, and size of stove.


----------



## Ashful

JA600L said:


> My thinking is the hybrids probably perform the same as a cat stove when it is very cold, but the cat stove extends burn time when temps are milder.


Your thinking is exactly correct.  When it's crazy cold out, you'll be running any stove at a higher burn rate, and the advantage of the cat stove disappears.  Of course, we spend 80% of the time with the stove shut down on a low setting, and that's when the cat stove shows its advantage.


----------



## smokedragon

Joful said:


> the radiated heat is proportional to surface area. Bigger stove = more surface area.


Totally agree with that as a general rule. Just like larger firebox size generally means longer burn times.  But some stoves with medium firebox sizes (BK Princess) get longer burn times than 3.4 cu ft fireboxes (like Englander 30NC), so its not a hard and fast rule.

But just because a stove is bigger doesn't mean it puts out more peak BTU.  Some stove designs burn hotter than others.  My old smoke dragon has a big firebox for an insert, but I'll bet that a cheapo secondary burn insert with a smaller firebox and surface area throws WAY MORE peak BTU.  Because the design is letting less heat go up the chimney.

There is more to this equation than firebox size or stove surface area.



BrowningBAR said:


> The equinox at 600 puts out more heat than a Fireview at 600.



Now that is a totally accurate statement.  Two stoves at the same temp, larger stove absolutely will radiate more heat.


----------



## dhumohr

This thread has been dormant for quite awhile, but we hope you're all out there yet, because we just got our PH and it's now installed and ready to go!  Last year we figured that we burned about 12 face cord of wood, and although we've read that some people have cut their wood consumption in half, and because we live in a quite old, not very well insulated home, we thought we'd be conservative and plan on using 3/4 of what we did last year.  We were very lucky to find some seasoned wood from someone who stopped heating with a wood furnace and wanted to sell their wood.  So we have about 7 face cords of that for this year, plus three face cords of wood that was split in May of this year.  We also will have 9 face cords of wood cut this summer for next heating season.  The seasoned splits are about 18", and the wood split in May is about 16".  I think we're all set, and now since it's getting a bit chilly in the evenings, we thought we'd start up the stove for the first time about midday tomorrow or the next day, when we can open windows and doors to provide ventilation, since the instructions say there may be an acrid smell for the first couple of burns.  

Other than checking for a good draft and starting with crumpled newspaper and kindling and adding small splits (as we'd have done with our old stove), are there any tips you can give us?  

Also I'm a little confused.  When we were at Woodstock in August, Jamie said to put the thermometer on the stove top and when it reached 250, engage the combuster, and in the directions under the section labeled "the Surface Thermometer", it says "we recommend placing the thermometer 8-10" above the flue collar on single wall stove pipe".  Then later on, it says "we recommend engaging your combuster once the pipe thermometer reaches 300-350. Stove top temperatures should reach approximately 250."  More: "once the combuster is engaged you should see the stove surface temps rise and the pipe temp drop".  Doesn't this sound like you should be using TWO thermometers??  We do have two--should we use them both?


----------



## Tenn Dave

dhumohr said:


> This thread has been dormant for quite awhile, but we hope you're all out there yet, because we just got our PH and it's now installed and ready to go!  Last year we figured that we burned about 12 face cord of wood, and although we've read that some people have cut their wood consumption in half, and because we live in a quite old, not very well insulated home, we thought we'd be conservative and plan on using 3/4 of what we did last year.  We were very lucky to find some seasoned wood from someone who stopped heating with a wood furnace and wanted to sell their wood.  So we have about 7 face cords of that for this year, plus three face cords of wood that was split in May of this year.  We also will have 9 face cords of wood cut this summer for next heating season.  The seasoned splits are about 18", and the wood split in May is about 16".  I think we're all set, and now since it's getting a bit chilly in the evenings, we thought we'd start up the stove for the first time about midday tomorrow or the next day, when we can open windows and doors to provide ventilation, since the instructions say there may be an acrid smell for the first couple of burns.
> 
> Other than checking for a good draft and starting with crumpled newspaper and kindling and adding small splits (as we'd have done with our old stove), are there any tips you can give us?
> 
> Also I'm a little confused.  When we were at Woodstock in August, Jamie said to put the thermometer on the stove top and when it reached 250, engage the combuster, and in the directions under the section labeled "the Surface Thermometer", it says "we recommend placing the thermometer 8-10" above the flue collar on single wall stove pipe".  Then later on, it says "we recommend engaging your combuster once the pipe thermometer reaches 300-350. Stove top temperatures should reach approximately 250."  More: "once the combuster is engaged you should see the stove surface temps rise and the pipe temp drop".  Doesn't this sound like you should be using TWO thermometers??  We do have two--should we use them both?


The progress hybrid is a great stove and you will be very happy with it.  Besides the things you have mentioned about starting a fire, I use Super Cedars in place of newspaper.  Also, my stove is rear vented, so I only use the thermometer on the stove top.
There are still some Woodstock stove owners here at hearth.com, but a great many have moved on to other Forum sites.  If you do not get many responses here, you will have to do a yahoo search to find other forums.  Good luck.


----------



## fire_man

dhumohr said:


> Other than checking for a good draft and starting with crumpled newspaper and kindling and adding small splits (as we'd have done with our old stove), are there any tips you can give us?
> 
> Also I'm a little confused.  When we were at Woodstock in August, Jamie said to put the thermometer on the stove top and when it reached 250, engage the combuster, and in the directions under the section labeled "the Surface Thermometer", it says "we recommend placing the thermometer 8-10" above the flue collar on single wall stove pipe".  Then later on, it says "we recommend engaging your combuster once the pipe thermometer reaches 300-350. Stove top temperatures should reach approximately 250."  More: "once the combuster is engaged you should see the stove surface temps rise and the pipe temp drop".  Doesn't this sound like you should be using TWO thermometers??  We do have two--should we use them both?



Hi dhumohr,

Congrats on the new Progress! It's a great stove built by a great company.

You are right, start with crumpled newspapers and kindling and add small splits. Don't be concerned if the draft seems weak, it's still kind of warm this time of year which hurts draft. Like any stove, the Progress takes some getting used to. After a year or so, you will get used to all the operating details and will get good at running the stove in different weather conditions.

I found that with a brand new Combustor, I can engage the cat with a stove top temp of 250F, but after 10 or so fires, the cat calms down and you will be engaging closer to 300F. I don't use the pipe temp to guide me since mine is a rear vent and impossible to get to the vertical section with a thermometer. I use two thermometers - one on the stovetop and one mounted to the cast iron trim around the window. I find the trim location more accurately reflects the "whole stove" temp, rather than the stovetop temp which may be hotter due to the cat. You really only need one thermometer, either on the stovetop or flue.

If you load the stove full, the Progress likes to fire off it's secondaries and it's hard to calm them down. But if you load 1/2 way it's easier to   get the stove to burn in pure "cat" mode. Watch the Iconel screen, some users find it plugs more often than others and has to be cleaned.

I could go on and on - but it's best just to start burning, learn, be safe and have fun!


----------



## Cross Cut Saw

dhumohr said:


> Also I'm a little confused.  When we were at Woodstock in August, Jamie said to put the thermometer on the stove top and when it reached 250, engage the combuster, and in the directions under the section labeled "the Surface Thermometer", it says "we recommend placing the thermometer 8-10" above the flue collar on single wall stove pipe".  Then later on, it says "we recommend engaging your combuster once the pipe thermometer reaches 300-350. Stove top temperatures should reach approximately 250."  More: "once the combuster is engaged you should see the stove surface temps rise and the pipe temp drop".  Doesn't this sound like you should be using TWO thermometers??  We do have two--should we use them both?



I would suggest leaving your door cracked just enough to let some air in while lighting and until the kindling can stay lit on it's own.  Like it says you don't want to put a roaring fire in a cold stove so I would start small and add to it.

If you vent your stove from the top put your thermometer on the cast iron on the top of the stove directly to the left or right of the pipe, we did it that way and it's very accurate.

Use the thermometer that came with it and if you have well seasoned wood you can close the bypass at the temperature it says to on the thermometer and close the air down half way (you never want to have the bypass engaged and have the air more than half way open).  We marked 1/2 and 1/4 open on the heat shield on the back so my wife and I could be doing the same thing.

Last year we ordered Maple only from a local dealer, it dried enough within 9 months and was very easy to regulate the fire output since it was very consistent.  On a nice bed of coals we would reload at 300-350 degrees, immediately shut the air down 1/2, set a timer for 10 minutes, after 10 minutes close the bypass, set the timer for 5 minutes, after 5 minutes turn the air down to less than 1/4, and slowly lower it from there, watching the flame in the center bottom to make sure it doesn't go out completely but is just barely flickering.

If you have any specific questions feel free to pm me, I spent a lot of time dialing that thing in and getting it working great, it heated our poorly insulated 153 year old home with no problem, but you can see in the picture below, some like it HOT!


----------



## JA600L

Does the progress hybrid have a hot spot in front of the cat too?


----------



## Cross Cut Saw

JA600L said:


> Does the progress hybrid have a hot spot in front of the cat too?



The cat sits in the back directly below the stove pipe so where I put the thermometer in my last post is directly above it.

Although some newer models have them here:


----------



## Tenn Dave

Cross Cut Saw said:


> The cat sits in the back directly below the stove pipe so where I put the thermometer in my last post is directly above it.
> 
> Although some newer models have them here:
> 
> View attachment 138315


WOW, that kitty really likes to be warm.


----------



## pfd286

Kruegerw said:


> Any reviews or comments on the woodstock soapstone progress hybrid stove.  Based on what I have come across, the stove came out less than one year ago.  Anyone used it?  How does it perform?  Is the hybrid just a gimmick?  I have read that catalytic systems require a lot of TLC - I am familiar with loading, cranking down the damper, and walking away.  Since they do not have distributors (factory direct only) should this be a concern?  Finally, for the dollar - are there better options?
> 
> Wanting to heat 3000 sq ft



I have the stove and know of 2 others that do.  Great heat source.  The hybrid may be some what of a 'gimmick' but I have seen both on my stove working (secondary air inlet in the top of the burn chamber as well as the cat combustor)  I have also dealt with them for customer service in the past and they are hands down the best company to deal with.

Good luck!


----------



## Machria

dhumohr said:


> This thread has been dormant for quite awhile, but we hope you're all out there yet, because we just got our PH and it's now installed and ready to go!  Last year we figured that we burned about 12 face cord of wood, and although we've read that some people have cut their wood consumption in half, and because we live in a quite old, not very well insulated home, we thought we'd be conservative and plan on using 3/4 of what we did last year.  We were very lucky to find some seasoned wood from someone who stopped heating with a wood furnace and wanted to sell their wood.  So we have about 7 face cords of that for this year, plus three face cords of wood that was split in May of this year.  We also will have 9 face cords of wood cut this summer for next heating season.  The seasoned splits are about 18", and the wood split in May is about 16".  I think we're all set, and now since it's getting a bit chilly in the evenings, we thought we'd start up the stove for the first time about midday tomorrow or the next day, when we can open windows and doors to provide ventilation, since the instructions say there may be an acrid smell for the first couple of burns.
> 
> Other than checking for a good draft and starting with crumpled newspaper and kindling and adding small splits (as we'd have done with our old stove), are there any tips you can give us?
> 
> Also I'm a little confused.  When we were at Woodstock in August, Jamie said to put the thermometer on the stove top and when it reached 250, engage the combuster, and in the directions under the section labeled "the Surface Thermometer", it says "we recommend placing the thermometer 8-10" above the flue collar on single wall stove pipe".  Then later on, it says "we recommend engaging your combuster once the pipe thermometer reaches 300-350. Stove top temperatures should reach approximately 250."  More: "once the combuster is engaged you should see the stove surface temps rise and the pipe temp drop".  Doesn't this sound like you should be using TWO thermometers??  We do have two--should we use them both?




I find putting the Woodstock temp gage about 10" above the stove on the stove pipe works MUCH better than putting it on the top of the stove.  The top of the stove is very thick soapstone and takes a while to heat up, meanwhile the stove is much hotter inside including the cat.   So turning the bypass valve to activate the CAT at 260 (as marked on the temp gage) when the stove pipe is 260 works perfect and takes about 10 or 15 minutes with a cold start.


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