# Help on Dual Boiler setup Coal-Propane



## layoric (Oct 22, 2014)

Hi all, I've just received a Keystoker K2 boiler, that was _professionally installed_ about a month ago. I've had some issues with it, mainly due to the installation. I have one pump per boiler, and 4 new zone valves on the propane boiler side. The coal boiler has DHW installed as well.

My main issues now are that I have a single pump on the propane boiler, along with new erie pop-top zone valves, by Schneider-Electric. Ever since the installation I've had a water hammer every time the thermostat shuts down. Sometimes this hammer noise/rattle is very slight, other times it wakes us up! The original installer kept being adamant it was _air in the lines, _yet I have emptied BUCKETS of water, and there is still the issue. I also just had a more reputable HVAC company come out and they said what I also learned by reading online - the hammer is from the very fast closing of the zone valves. 

*I can find no information on these valves online - is it possible to modify them to make them close slower, just as others have stated about Honeywell? What is the least expensive option to eliminate the water hammer issue, the HVAC company said possibly some sort of water hammer arrestor? Will that work with a boiler?*

My other issue is over-heating. I have the K2 set for 160 low limit, 180 high. Many times after the boiler fires up to compensate for DHW or calls for heat, the temperature climbs to 230 - 240 degrees, sometimes a bit higher! The emergency thermostat (forget what it's called) connected to the boiler was set for 220, but never seemed to go off. I have since determined, by manually adjusting the thermostat, that it is off by about 25 degrees as compared to the digital thermostat on the boiler. Setting it to 205 will initiate the emergency heat dump at about 230 degrees. This second HVAC company technician also said that the circulator pump on the K2 side is installed in the wrong place! He stated it could account for overheating. Apparently the dual boiler piping is not set up for circulating from the K2 to the propane boiler. I have verified this by observing the propane boiler temperature gauge being around 120 degrees or less at times when there is no call for heat, while the K2 has a clear reading of 180 and above. I mentioned the propane boiler seemed to be trying to energize to the original installer, he said he didn't know why... The HVAC company stated the propane boiler is setup as a temperature maintainer right now, which is a waste since the K2 is up to temperature.

*Would rerouting the circulator pump on the K2 side make this a parallel or series installation? Will doing this allow the propane boiler to energize and take over should the coal boiler go out?
*
The DHW does not have much in the way of quick recovery. We tend to use it to a point where there is hardly any hot water left and it is unable to recover fast enough.  This occurs with or without a call for heat. We have a 50 gal. electric water heater, with bypass controls for it and it is currently switched off.

*What are my options for easily increasing the DHW capacity/recovery?*

With all these issues, I've been thinking of some sort of remote monitoring and/or automation.
*
Is there also some device that can be installed to remotely monitor the boiler temperature? How about something that will shut down power to the coal boiler should the fire go out, and allow the propane boiler to take over?
*
Thanks for any input!

Kirk


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## stee6043 (Oct 22, 2014)

With all of these issues I'd be thinking about talking to a lawyer.  Is the "professional installer" no longer supporting you?  Why have you needed to bring in the second HVAC guy?

The things you're asking above seem to be problems significant enough that your installer should be solving them at no charge to you. Deploying "band aid" fixes on a brand new system would not be my recommendation.

If this were my setup I'd tell the "professional installer" that he can take his system back and you want a refund if he can't make it work properly.  I assume you've already paid him in-full?  That will make it harder...hence perhaps a letter from a lawyer might be in order if he's refusing to support.

Bad deal either way.  Best of luck!


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## layoric (Oct 22, 2014)

stee6043 said:


> With all of these issues I'd be thinking about talking to a lawyer.  Is the "professional installer" no longer supporting you?  Why have you needed to bring in the second HVAC guy?
> 
> The things you're asking above seem to be problems significant enough that your installer should be solving them at no charge to you. Deploying "band aid" fixes on a brand new system would not be my recommendation.
> 
> ...


No, it's just that he did things wrong and I was looking to inexpensively make it right. They wouldn't be bandade fixes, it's piping, so everything can be altered... 

I just got a call from the 2nd party, $1,100 to rewire all zone valves and reroute a line to pipe water from coal boiler to propane boiler when it's not calling for heat. Yeah, I'm not paying that unless as you stated, I get a refund from installer. The installer did not sell me the boiler. I got it from Dennis Coal.

Just left a message with the installer dictating my issues. I'm still looking for rewiring and plumbing options from others here as there is no guarantee that the installer will make it right.


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## leon (Oct 23, 2014)

Nothing short of your local small claims court is going to solve the issue for you;
please had over to www.NEPAdigital.com to get help with your K2 as
soon as possible and call Don Somers at Keystoker.

I was not happy with them(Dennis Coal) either for what its worth.

Are you using oiled coal or dry coal? Pea or rice?

The Keystoker K2's are simple machines and easy to set up but unless the propane unit is
only used as a back up and wired as such problems will ensue.

Draining water will not solve your water hammer issues.

Why was a second pump not installed to balance the water temperature between the boilers as it should have been????


The thing is that he should have installed an accumulator or installed air stops
at the end of the plumbing runs (long pieces of capped copper pipe with normal
air charges in the pipe or a disposable water accumulator with a gas charged bladder
to absorb the water hammer shock if this is the issue.

Stupid question where are the air scoops, air vents and bladder tanks?
are there any of the above items installed?

You need at least two air scoops and bladder tanks with automatic air vents and manual air vents at the highest elbows in the runs.

What is the inlet water pressure entering the dual system?
It should not be any greater than 12 PSI+-. Is there a backflow preventer?

Your installation worries me as it sounds as if the units cannot be run independent
of each other(as they should) and they do no have air scoops, bladder tanks or spirovents
on the air scoops.

What are your high and low limits set at?

How many pins and how far apart are they on the timer for the idle and operating times? Did he use the triple aquastat furnished for the keystoker and tie it into the propane burner controls?

Or did he use the aquastat on the propane boiler to operate the stoker?


How wide are the air doors set on the twin combustion blowers? They should be nearly wide open.

You need to download the Keystoker boiler piping and wiring diagrams and compare them to the snakes nest you paid for.

The other thing that jumps right up is the electric water heater.

When was the last time it was drained of sediment???

Don't forget that the water heater will shed heat from the water.

Am I correct in assuming that a tempering valve was not installed?

You need to turn the water heater back on and install a circulating pump with a thermostat for the domestic hot water if you are using a lot of hot water UNLESS you install a tempering valve off the domestic coil and bypass the water heater entirely.


The hot water coil in the Keystoker should be providing you with plenty of hot water
with a tempering valve and using the water tank for storage.

You need to lower the low limit and the high limit temperatures by twenty degrees to the summer settings as the boiler will take longer to reach the upper limit temps but even longer to reach the low limit temps.
.

Can you upload a diagram of the current plumbing?


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## leon (Oct 23, 2014)

Adding to what I have already contributed:

www.nepacrossroadscom/about1952.html

This will help you, and Don Somers at keystoker can fax you a wiring and plumbing diagram for the K2 tying in with your propane boiler

The plumber/installer did not do his homework apparently nor did Dennis Coal I hope he used a lot of unions,teflon tape and pipe dope.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

leon said:


> Nothing short of your local small claims court is going to solve the issue for you;
> please had over to www.NEPAdigital.com to get help with your K2 as
> soon as possible and call Don Somers at Keystoker.
> 
> ...






The items in green next to the zone valves are the proposed changes. Right now the zone valves dead head to the right. He wants to put in a check valve and tie between the end of the zone valves and into the propane boiler intake (I believe that's the intake). Per Don at Keystoker, I've also relayed the info to him to add a 4006A to the propane boiler, probably in the new tie in location as illustrated, and wire it to T-T on triple aqua-stat (I assume that's the digital controller for the coal boiler?). The circulating pumps should also be wired to C1, C2 on triple aqua-stat.

I have the water heater off, no issues with that - using just the boiler for DHW.
I don't think there's any back flow preventer. 
I never said there wasn't a 2nd pump. I know it's not currently plumbed to flow water to the propane boiler without a zone valve being open, however.
My diagram illustrates a tempering valve is installed. I calibrated it to 127 degrees.
Propane boiler has ZV's installed on it, don't know how it's wired, can try to do a diagram of that next.
Oiled rice coal.
Don't know what you mean by air doors. I have a -2 for draft set from his manometer.
I have 3 pins on one 30 min. mark, 4 on another 30 min. mark. All next to one-another.

Thanks for any assistance - hopefully those answer most questions.


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## maple1 (Oct 24, 2014)

_*Right now the zone valves dead head to the right.*_

What does that mean?

Having a hard time figuring your diagram - where do the zones return to?

No experience with your zone valves - but with some, it is possible to install them backwards. They should close against the flow of water. If installed the other way, they will close with a bang with the water flow slamming them shut.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

maple1 said:


> _*Right now the zone valves dead head to the right.*_
> 
> What does that mean?
> 
> ...


Dead head is a common hvac term meaning the pipe ends or there is no flow at that point. The zone valves all return to the dotted lines at the top. This should also be self evident as both locations have dotted lines. Blue lines are cold water 'input' lines, red is hot water out. These are standard notations and symbols, so I didn't feel the need for a legend. Was keeping the diagram as clean as possible. Also, since you are not familiar with piping diagrams, everywhere a pipe has a small 'u' it means it does not connect to the pipe - since this is a 2d diagram, this is how that is illustrated. 

I also indicated the flow of water swhich should also make it self evident of which ball valves are closed.

The diagram was emailed to Keystoker as well for input on how it is now along with proposed changes.


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## maple1 (Oct 24, 2014)

I am familiar with piping diagrams. Not a pro, but I digested a lot of them before doing my system over.

This one seems flawed - sometimes the best way to figure out how & why is to start with a simple question.

Deadhead also means a pump is pumping against a closed circuit - which should not happen. Rather, the pump should stop pumping - or, the flow diverts somewhere else. So, perhaps it is 'diverts', rather than 'deadheads'. That, combined with three dotted zone return lines coming in one one side of an air scoop/expansion, and one on the other, may lead to a question of clarification.

I am not seeing how the K2 supply can get to your propane unit if the zones are closed. Then, if the zones are open, it will only get cool zone return water. But, how does the water get pulled through the zones, and what prevents it from short circuiting around the propane boiler loop? Or the K2 loop when K2 is active? What exactly are the green change items?

The drawing does not show scale, so it is hard to tell - but it looks like your expansion tanks might be on the wrong side of your pumps too.


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## leon (Oct 24, 2014)

layoric said:


> View attachment 142180
> 
> The items in green next to the zone valves are the proposed changes. Right now the zone valves dead head to the right. He wants to put in a check valve and tie between the end of the zone valves and into the propane boiler intake (I believe that's the intake). Per Don at Keystoker, I've also relayed the info to him to add a 4006A to the propane boiler, probably in the new tie in location as illustrated, and wire it to T-T on triple aqua-stat (I assume that's the digital controller for the coal boiler?). The circulating pumps should also be wired to C1, C2 on triple aqua-stat.
> 
> ...


=======================================================================================================


The diagram is a bit strange; the symbol you have for a pump is or was ASME designation for
a forced draft air blower.


Pumps are normally indicated with a large circle containing
a Capital P in its center.

Air doors are the air shutters-they are the sliding metal discs that cover the air inlets for both blowers.

If you pins are all next to each other as you describe(meaning (1-2-3)-(4-5-6-7)  thats not good!

Please replace the three pins at every twenty minute position and run it like that as suggested by Keystoker in the manual.

Per the National Plumbing Code there has to be a backflow preventer in front of the pressure regulator. The residential backflow preventer is smaller than the pressure regulator.

If he did not install a backflow preventer thats a guaranteed NO NO and violation of the national plumbing code.


Your plumbing would be simplified if you eliminated the the zone valves period and you could keep the single thermostat to maintain the homes temperature at 62-65 degrees.

My old house is one continuous loop with a common return pipe.

Just to be safe check the valves to see if they have a flow direction arrow please.


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## ewdudley (Oct 24, 2014)

layoric said:


> This second HVAC company technician also said that the circulator pump on the K2 side is installed in the wrong place!



Keystoker's manual show a pump right where you have your K2 water fan, what is your second HVAC guy's reasoning? 

Is the bypass circuit valve open, partially closed, or completely closed?  How did you decide what the bypass circuit valve setting should be?


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

leon said:


> =======================================================================================================
> 
> 
> The diagram is a bit strange; the symbol you have for a pump is or was ASME designation for
> ...



Flows are correct direction as indicated by arrows. Pump is indicated as such due to that's what says PUMP in the HVAC symbol library used. All pins are together per Don at Keystoker. Remember, this is a new boiler, manuals change --
I don't know what a backflow preventer looks like, but unless it's integrated into my original boiler setup, which would be at the intake for water, as it goes into where the expansion/bladder tank is, I don't think I ever had one there. I assume that's the same thing as a check valve, as it allows only one way for water to go.

No, don't want to elimate the zone valves, whole reason is to have separate temps in separate areas, if I wanted that, I'd go back to the coal stove....

This is an email from this morning from Keystoker:
It looks to me as though the both supply and return lines are going into the same line and not through the boiler. One should go in to each line supply and return. The 4006A needs to put in the boiler or the supply line right at the boiler. The 4006A needs to be wired into the triple aquastat on the Keystoker TT connections. The zone valves need to wired back to the way they had been. The circulator on the propane boiler needs to be wired into the triple aquastat on the propane like it was in the 

His email just ended like that, don't know what he was doing - but I assume he was going to finish saying, in the past, or something like that....

The FU&*TARD installer was blaming my original propane boiler for the 'weird setup'. Yeah.... Don't think so! He made stupid mistakes, plain and simple.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

maple1 said:


> _*Right now the zone valves dead head to the right.*_
> 
> What does that mean?
> 
> ...



Zone valves go to the dotted lines up top... same lines, same line type. Valves are in correct direction. New diagram coming.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

OK, here's another diagram, with some proposed changes by Keystoker. Those of you who responded, YES, as I stated there is no chance of having a return to the propane boiler without a zone valve being open. This new diagram should make it easier to see returns and zone valve direction. There is a proposed pipe change / addition in bolded line, labeled as well. Don said this would also eliminate the water hammer? Also is the proposed check valve in the correct location?


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## leon (Oct 24, 2014)

The KAA-2 boiler has been around for a long time.

The backflow preventer would have the words
backflow preventer on the tag attached to the valve.

Thier e-mail system has had some issues with drafts being sent
unfinished by a simple bumping of the enter key.

This happens with chain e-mails too.

The only route for you now is small claims court to sue
for damages with a notarised statement from Don Somers
and the second plumber PLUS ample photographs of the
current system to show the small claims court judge.

I would want to see his plumbers license as well.


He wont refund you your money, I can garantee that becuase
no plumber has inventory to carry over for stocking materials
these days and they buy the pipe and valves from the local
supply house as the jobs come up as it costs too much money
to maintain a minimum inventory. 

You need to look at the manual again-on page 12 as you either have reduce the coal feed
by one or two turns or remove a pin and wait several hours before making any changes.

The number of pins desired starting with three pins have to be separated every twenty minutes
on the timer and then go from there by first reducing the coal feed and waiting several hours
before making any changes.


Leaving seven pins in a row is something that is very strange and does not sound right at all.

Have three pins at zero, three at 20, and three at forty minutes which is where everyone starts
and then go from ther by backing off the coal feed first or taking out pins later.


Your balancing pipe will not balance the temperature unless it is directly plumbed from one boiler to the other with a pump loop between the two boilers to balance the temperatures between them.

I have to leave for chores now.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

leon said:


> The KAA-2 boiler has been around for a long time.
> 
> The backflow preventer would have the words
> backflow preventer on the tag attached to the valve.
> ...



Yes, the k2 has been, but they are constantly updating parts, for instance, mine has a digital display, a while back it did not. Why would I sue, he's trying to fix it?
The pins aren't an issue right now...


Does anyone else have any input on the check valve location and the new proposed pipe location? Will that pipe in that location seem to feed hot water from coal boiler to propane boiler without zone valves calling for heat?


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## ewdudley (Oct 24, 2014)

layoric said:


> Does anyone else have any input on the check valve location and the new proposed pipe location? Will that pipe in that location seem to feed hot water from coal boiler to propane boiler without zone valves calling for heat?


As water leaves the coal boiler it can go two directions.

If no zone valve is open then  pump P1 (coal boiler pump) flow will go through the propane boiler and back to the coal boiler.

If one or more zone valves are open then some of pump P1 flow will go through to one or more loads and some flow will continue to flow through the propane boiler.  How much either direction depends on the relative resistance for each parallel path.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> As water leaves the coal boiler it can go two directions.
> 
> If no zone valve is open then  pump P1 (coal boiler pump) flow will go through the propane boiler and back to the coal boiler.
> 
> If one or more zone valves are open then some of pump P1 flow will go through to one or more loads and some flow will continue to flow through the propane boiler.  How much either direction depends on the relative resistance for each parallel path.


So do you mean my new pipe will work then?


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## ewdudley (Oct 24, 2014)

layoric said:


> So do you mean my new pipe will work then?


Probably not very well.

Assuming the pipes to an from the propane boiler are relatively short and relatively large in diameter compared to the load piping, then most of the P1 pump flow will go through the propane boiler and relatively little will go through the zones.

Maybe all you need is a balancing valve to limit the flow to the propane boiler.  Also there is such a thing as a constant pressure valve that is used in these situations, http://www.pexuniverse.com/taco-3196-pressure-bypass-valve, although they're largely obsolete now that affordable constant deltaP pumps are available (Wilo Stratos, B&G Vario, Grundfoss Alpha).

(Why is it a goal to circulate through the idle propane boiler?)


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

Well, that's what keystoker suggested. No mention of another pump required. I'm going to include a bunch of photos of the current setup as well. That's a link to the group, here's a couple for preview:




Photo Oct 23, 4 33 43 PM 




Photo Oct 23, 4 33 29 PM 




Photo Oct 23, 4 32 45 PM 




Photo Oct 23, 4 32 37 PM


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## maple1 (Oct 24, 2014)

Is the principle here to heat the propane boiler with the K2 and the propane boiler heat the house? (i.e. coal keeps propane hot so it doesn't fire up, but if you run out of coal the propane will fire up due to no hot supply from the coal),

or,

is the principle that either one or the other will/can heat the house on its own depending on say thermostat settings?

There is a lot of confusion in that diagram and it seems overcomplicated, to me at least. I could edit it up with some changes I see if I knew the principle (control scenario) that it was working under. Is there just one thermostat in the house that calls for heat? Do the zone valves have end switches that then start just the propane pump? The way I am seeing that, there will be very little if any flow through the zones from the coal pump. Are there check valves in the circulators?


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## leon (Oct 24, 2014)

He still needs an open pipe loop for a temperature balancing line with a pump like I have.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Is the principle here to heat the propane boiler with the K2 and the propane boiler heat the house? (i.e. coal keeps propane hot so it doesn't fire up, but if you run out of coal the propane will fire up due to no hot supply from the coal),
> 
> or,
> 
> ...


Yes, heat from coal boiler should flow to propane boiler. If coal fire goes out, propane boiler should kick in. Installer was SUPPOSED TO set it up so that with the turning of three valves I could run propane boiler by itself without it back feeding through coal boiler.

The diagram is just what I have now, complicated or not, that's what it is - with the proposed changes as noted on it, and stated a few times. I didn't design the thing, just want the damn thing to work right, and to get an answer from someone as to what I must do to it to make it work right - assuming the installer screws it up again and I end up having to run a few pipes and rewire myself. 
I don't think the pumps have check valves.

There are 4 zones, 4 zone valves, four thermostats.

I want the coal boiler to feed the propane boiler, and the propane boiler only fire when it no longer gets hot water from the coal boiler, in essence this would also mean the propane boiler can run on its own. I would also like the pumps to turn off and only run when needed - ie, if propane boiler needs to get more hot water to avoid firing, it will call for the pump on coal boiler to flow. When a zone valve closes, the pump on the propane boiler should also turn off. This is what I was told by Keystoker as well. I'd like to know what line should go where for my current setup without changing everything to make it fit in someone else's ideal setup. Keystoker said I should just have to do ( I believe that's what he meant) what is shown in the last diagram, aside from some rewiring.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

leon said:


> He still needs an open pipe loop for a temperature balancing line with a pump like I have.


Referencing the diagram, please note what needs to be done.


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## layoric (Oct 24, 2014)

If something is just retarded on this setup, and I can just remove it/close it off, and reroute a line, then also please share! With many people stating it's overly complicated, then it must be! Please, if you can, reference the diagram, as it is what I have now.


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## layoric (Oct 25, 2014)

How about this? I don't know if I need both check valves though.


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## leon (Oct 25, 2014)

layoric said:


> Referencing the diagram, please note what needs to be done.


 
At the bottom of ther propain boiler and the K2 there are inlet/outlet pipe tappings that is where the temparature balancing pipe loop  should be plumbed with a pump to feed the hot water from the K2 to the propain boiler.

Short of "creating a common return header to the propain boiler from the four zones" back to the propain boiler and installing the pump loop to balance the temperatures between the two boilers I dont see much of a solution as you have four separate thermostats.

Do this first(I would) 
install black iron pipe with the second pump running continuously from the coal stoker to the propain unit. this gets you hot water all the time between the two boilers the year round.


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## ewdudley (Oct 25, 2014)

layoric said:


> How about this? I don't know if I need both check valves though.


Almost there. Since you are choosing to keep the LP boiler hot (which is a valid choice), the supply line from the coal boiler should be connected to the supply side of the LP boiler, and likewise the returns should be connected together.  But the supply side connection would need to be somewhere on the inlet side of the the LP boiler pump, P2.

The LP boiler is on and operates normally as if no changes were ever made to the system. It is  P2 that feeds the loads, and the coal boiler is set up to flow in a reverse direction through the LP boiler, which keeps is hot enough that the LP boiler does not need to ignite.

The coal boiler call-for-heat would be activated by an aquastat on the return side of the LP boiler and also by a system call-for-heat.

So when there is a system call-for-heat both pumps activate.  Some or all of the flow from the coal boiler pump, P1, feeds into P2 and goes out to the active zones and the excess flow (if any) goes back through the LP boiler, keeping it hot.  If P2 flow exceeds P1 flow there will be some forward flow through the LP boiler and it will start to cool down.  The LP boiler aquastat settings will need to be adjusted such that the coal boiler can catch up in time to keep the LP boiler from firing.

After the system call-for-heat is satisfied the coal boiler will continue to see a call-for-heat if the (newly added) aquastat on the return side of the LP boiler is not satisfied.

This is called a figure eight configuration that is commonly used to keep a standby boiler hot, but ready to fire if the primary boiler goes offline.


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## maple1 (Oct 25, 2014)

I was laying in bed this morning figuring this all out, then I come on here & see you guys are ahead of me.



I have a question though to add to the dialogue - what exactly do you have for circ pumps now at each location?

I am guessing the propane circ is a constant speed pump that is flowing too much flow for when just one or two zones are open. You would see much better zone (and maybe also system) performance if that pump (P2) was a Grundfoss Alpha or the such - and I would hazard a guess that your water hammer issue would disappear. You could possibly reduce control issues using an Alpha there also - just plug it into power, it will sense zones opening & closing on its own and maintain proper flow, once you get the baseline flow (delta P) tuned in.

Referring to ewdudley's help above, you could use a Johnson A419 controller to control the call for P1 to start & stop, and surface mount the sensor for it on the LP return pipe, as far in towards the boiler as you could get it. Or onto the surface of the water jacket itself, at the return tapping - depending on access to the jacket. Then if you wanted to eliminate the chance of that stuff circulating cold water from the coal unit if it ran out of coal or something like that, you could also use one of your 4006 stats (whichever one makes on rise) sensing at your coal boiler, that would interrupt the electricity between the Johnson & P1 if the coal boiler went cold.

Also don't know exactly what kind of setup that is for DHW off the coal unit? And it still looks like your expansion is on the wrong side of the circs - that said without knowing distances between everything though. How far apart are the boilers? Thinking you likely would only need one expansion tank setup for the system.


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## ewdudley (Oct 25, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Then if you wanted to eliminate the chance of that stuff circulating cold water from the coal unit if it ran out of coal or something like that, you could also use one of your 4006 stats (whichever one makes on rise) sensing at your coal boiler, that would interrupt the electricity between the Johnson & P1 if the coal boiler went cold.


The aquastat relay would be wired to the coal boiler T-T terminals in addition to all the system call-for-heat contacts, all 'wired-OR' together.

The Keystoker has a conventional L8124A 'triple aquastat' that would turn off P1 on low-limit.  Also I think would need a check valve to  keep P2 from back-feeding coal boiler when P1 not pumping.


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## maple1 (Oct 25, 2014)

Ah, OK on the 8124. I've got one of those in my system. It kicks out my main circ when storage is cold, just before it kicks on the electric boiler which has it's own circ.

I have no experience with either a gas boiler, or a coal boiler - so buyer beware on anything I say here.

Likely yes on the check - unless P1 has one built-in? Which could be the case, depending on what it is & if the installer removed it on installation.


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## layoric (Oct 25, 2014)

Just found out that the pump on the propane boiler is going the other way, so back to drawing board...


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## layoric (Oct 25, 2014)

OK, new diagrams, original setup shows some return lines from the rooms - they are of course shortened down. I also have two proposed changes. What I believe are a series setup, and parallel. It seems that the installer set it up as a parallel system - almost, although I believe that wasn't what he told me he was going to do...

This is the setup as it is NOW.




This I believe changes it to run in SERIES.



This should be the setup in PARALLEL.



*OK, could someone tell me what I would be missing to install where in the series and parallel examples above?* The original installer is supposed to come over tomorrow at noon to fix this debacle.


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## ewdudley (Oct 25, 2014)

Using the third drawing, just move the LP boiler pump up above the tee that feeds over to the return side of the coal boiler and your're good to go.


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## Bob Rohr (Oct 25, 2014)

layoric said:


> OK, new diagrams, original setup shows some return lines from the rooms - they are of course shortened down. I also have two proposed changes. What I believe are a series setup, and parallel. It seems that the installer set it up as a parallel system - almost, although I believe that wasn't what he told me he was going to do...
> 
> This is the setup as it is NOW.
> View attachment 142325
> ...




Does the coal fired boiler provide the DHW with a tankless coil somehow?

Not sure why series piping is required if DHW is not provided by a "hot" boiler?

Super simple ways to parallel boilers without pumping and flow conflicts.

Here are some piping examples.  The tank or separator, in the drawings  may not be needed or wanted, just install the ZVs there, like the hand drawn example.

I would protect the coal boiler with a mix valve. 

A link to a journal that may help the installer with the concepts.

http://www.caleffi.com/sites/default/files/coll_attach_file/idronics_10.pdf

Ignore all this if for some reasons the boilers MUST be series piped.


----------



## layoric (Oct 25, 2014)

Bob Rohr said:


> Does the coal fired boiler provide the DHW with a tankless coil somehow?
> 
> Not sure why series piping is required if DHW is not provided by a "hot" boiler?
> 
> ...


First, thank you!

Yes, coal boiler has DHW setup.

What wiring must be changed to finish as parallel, and what is the concept of a parallel setup? I read some other posts about parallel setup, but didn't understand it entirely. From what I figure, the parallel setup will allow both boilers to function independently, but how is that to happen with the zone valves powered by the propane boiler? The same would be true if the ZV's were moved to the coal boiler... Is it possible to wire them to both at the same time, but just power up only one or the other?


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## layoric (Oct 25, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> Using the third drawing, just move the LP boiler pump up above the tee that feeds over to the return side of the coal boiler and your're good to go.


Thank you!
What wiring will have to occur as well? What actually happens with a parallel system?


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## maple1 (Oct 25, 2014)

The zone valves shouldn't be powered by a boiler - they should be powered by the thermostats.

Edit: aren't those red arrows in your zone flows pointing in the wrong direction? And if you just discovered that pump was pumping the other way, does that mean the valves are installed backwards? Would still like to know what you have for a circ there.


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## leon (Oct 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I was laying in bed this morning figuring this all out, then I come on here & see you guys are ahead of me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


=======


layoric said:


> OK, new diagrams, original setup shows some return lines from the rooms - they are of course shortened down. I also have two proposed changes. What I believe are a series setup, and parallel. It seems that the installer set it up as a parallel system - almost, although I believe that wasn't what he told me he was going to do...
> 
> This is the setup as it is NOW.
> View attachment 142325
> ...


 
================================================================================================================================================

As my British friends would say "thats a real "cock up"

I hope the installer knows how to separate and segregate everything the way he was supposed to with a common return header for ALL the return lines to go back to one boiler.

Part of the problem lies with the fact that the boilers are not next to each other to allow for the single pipe loop connection to balance the temperatures between the two boilers and installing a ball valve to separate the two boilers if needed as mine is.

The fossil fuel boiler in my case has two pumps on the suction side (bottom outlet)  one to pump water between the two boilers to balance the temperature AKA temperature balancing loop when I am burning wood and coal along with oil and the second pump to pipe the hot water to the single loop that heats the house with the return water coming to the oil boiler.

I have a single common air scoop with a bladder tank and B+G air vent for both boilers two B+G right angle check valves and a second air vent to prevent ther highest elbow from becoming air locked and having the coal and wood boiler go to steam.


Single pipe low pressure steam (<15PSI) is so much simpler in my opinion.


I hope he straightens it out for you with little if any cost to you.


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## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

Don't do a series configuration.

If you want a parallel setup as Rohr is suggesting, where each boiler is independent and each boiler stays cool until it is activated, then use your third diagram, but add a check valve or pump internal flow-check for each boiler to prevent either boiler from pumping back through the other. This doesn't really address your water-hammer, overheat, or DHW recovery problems directly.  The overheat and DHW recovery problems can probably be helped by tuning the KAA-2 better (google for KAA-2 tuning and follow the nepacrossroads.com links).  The water-hammer problem might be helped by using a smaller pump or maybe a deltaP pump as suggested, but it may require water hammer arresters or a different type of zone valve to solve that problem.

If you want a figure-eight setup where the coal boiler is the primary boiler and the LP boiler is the standby boiler that is kept hot all the time, then use your third diagram, but move the LP boiler up above the tee that is currently just above that pump in the third diagram.  In this setup the LP boiler pump feeds the loads and the coal boiler pump keeps the LP boiler hot.  This would be the best configuration for helping to solve the  overheating and DHW recovery problems because the LP boiler would add some amount of buffering, and it would probably help a lot in mitigating the water-hammer problem because not all the pump flow is being forced through the load circuits.

Be aware that if you go with the figure-eight configuration then the LP boiler will stay hot all the time and may lose a fair amount of heat up the flue.  Also, although with the figure-eight configuration the LP boiler will take over automatically if the coal boiler goes offline, when it does you there will be parallel flow through the coal boiler until the coal boiler is manually isolated (or automatically isolated with a powered valve).

Ideally you would want a small (e.g., 30-50 gallon) buffer tank set up as a hydraulic separator that would be fed by either the coal boiler or the LP boiler independently.


----------



## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> The zone valves shouldn't be powered by a boiler - they should be powered by the thermostats.
> 
> Edit: aren't those red arrows in your zone flows pointing in the wrong direction? And if you just discovered that pump was pumping the other way, does that mean the valves are installed backwards? Would still like to know what you have for a circ there.


The transformer is on the lp side, so the zone valves are powered by that, and t-stats. No, I believe the arrows are correct, since I open the zv manually then it gets hot immediately above it.


----------



## maple1 (Oct 26, 2014)

*Also, although with the figure-eight configuration the LP boiler will take over automatically if the coal boiler goes offline, when it does you there will be parallel flow through the coal boiler until the coal boiler is manually isolated (or automatically isolated with a powered valve).*

What if, along with moving the LP circ as you suggested, he also turned it around so it was pumping up rather than down? (The way he thought it was pumping first). And either used a checked circ on the coal loop or put in a check valve there? Although the hot coal water would then need to go through the LP boiler before it got to the zones. Also sounds like there is still a question on whether the zone valves are pointing the right way, since there was confusion about which way the water was going.

On the DHW thing - I assume that setup is a tankless coil in the coal boiler, in series with an electric hot water heater? Don't think that has been clarified for sure. If so, I think there are a couple of ways to improve that situation. First, don't mix down between the coil & electric heater as shown. Rather, put a mixer on the DHW-out of the electric water heater, between it and the taps. If that was still not satisfactory, you would for certain have all the hot water you would need if you added a small recirc pump (I have a B&G Ecorcirc E^3) that would circulate the water between coil & heater when there was no hot water being used. I control mine with a Johnson A419 in a FPHX setup. Also don't know how big the electric heater is either - but the bigger the better for that, if a lot of hot water is being used.


----------



## maple1 (Oct 26, 2014)

*No, I believe the arrows are correct, since I open the zv manually then it gets hot immediately above it.*

How can that be, if the pump is pumping down?


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## maple1 (Oct 26, 2014)

*The transformer is on the lp side, so the zone valves are powered by that, and t-stats.*

OK, I guess maybe I could clarify a little. They may be powered by a transformer on the LP side, but they are activated and controlled by the stats. The stats activate a ZV on call for heat, the ZV opening then starts the circ pumping usually by an enclosed end switch in the ZV. The tranformer power supply is a constant and doesn't really matter where it comes from - it gets switched by the stats. So really neither boiler controls the zone valves.

I think.


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## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> On the DHW thing - I assume that setup is a tankless coil in the coal boiler, in series with an electric hot water heater? Don't think that has been clarified for sure. If so, I think there are a couple of ways to improve that situation. First, don't mix down between the coil & electric heater as shown. Rather, put a mixer on the DHW-out of the electric water heater, between it and the taps. If that was still not satisfactory, you would for certain have all the hot water you would need if you added a small recirc pump (I have a B&G Ecorcirc E^3) that would circulate the water between coil & heater when there was no hot water being used. I control mine with a Johnson A419 in a FPHX setup. Also don't know how big the electric heater is either - but the bigger the better for that, if a lot of hot water is being used.


That would take care of the DHW reserve problem nicely, which removes the main advantage of going with the figure-eight.

So now I would say don't do a series, don't do a figure-eight, and go ahead with figure 3 above with the addition of appropriate check valves or integrated flow-checks.  The water-hammer and overheating problems can be dealt with separately.


----------



## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> No, I believe the arrows are correct, since I open the zv manually then it gets hot immediately above it.
> How can that be, if the pump is pumping down?


@layoric:  How about a close up well lit picture of the LP boiler pump so we can see for ourselves what direction it is pumping.


----------



## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> *No, I believe the arrows are correct, since I open the zv manually then it gets hot immediately above it.*
> 
> How can that be, if the pump is pumping down?


Ahh, but the coal boiler pump P1 is pumping up in the as-currently-plumbed diagram!


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## maple1 (Oct 26, 2014)

My mind is getting muddied between the now & then - think it's time for me to go pile wood for a few hours...


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## Bob Rohr (Oct 26, 2014)

Would you consider another option for DHW?  It seems the only reason series piping is being considered to to always keep the coal fired boiler hot for DHW?

Series piping is never a good option for multiple boilers.  You are always flowing thru and un-fired boiler.  So a portion, possibly a large portion of the energy is going up the flue pipe and through jacket loss of dual boilers.  

Maybe consider a basic LP fired WH, electric,  or a tankless inline with the DHW coil.  Off season (non heating season) Dhw is generated without firing all that cast iron, fluid volume and flue piping loss.

With series your dhw costs could offset what you are trying to save with coal as a source?

Water hammer is generally caused by zone valves closing off, or trying to, against high velocity flow.  A PAB  pressure activated bypass is a simple way to eliminated that IF the single speed circ is sized properly to begin with.  The PAB basically attempts to flatten the pump curve, it should be considered anytime more than 4 zone valves are on a fixed speed circ.

Or a variable speed delta P circ Grundfos Alpha, Wilo ECO,,Armstrong Compass, B&G Vario Eco are all excellent circs for zone valved jobs.


----------



## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> *The transformer is on the lp side, so the zone valves are powered by that, and t-stats.*
> 
> OK, I guess maybe I could clarify a little. They may be powered by a transformer on the LP side, but they are activated and controlled by the stats. The stats activate a ZV on call for heat, the ZV opening then starts the circ pumping usually by an enclosed end switch in the ZV. The tranformer power supply is a constant and doesn't really matter where it comes from - it gets switched by the stats. So really neither boiler controls the zone valves.
> 
> I think.


What I meant was the zone valves transformer is powered on the circuit on the boiler.


----------



## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> Ahh, but the coal boiler pump P1 is pumping up in the as-currently-plumbed diagram!


Like I said, that arrow was my mistake.


----------



## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> @layoric:  How about a close up well lit picture of the LP boiler pump so we can see for ourselves what direction it is pumping.


It is pumping DOWN. I did not notice the arrow is all as it is old and painted black.


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## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> *Also, although with the figure-eight configuration the LP boiler will take over automatically if the coal boiler goes offline, when it does you there will be parallel flow through the coal boiler until the coal boiler is manually isolated (or automatically isolated with a powered valve).*
> 
> What if, along with moving the LP circ as you suggested, he also turned it around so it was pumping up rather than down? (The way he thought it was pumping first). And either used a checked circ on the coal loop or put in a check valve there? Although the hot coal water would then need to go through the LP boiler before it got to the zones. Also sounds like there is still a question on whether the zone valves are pointing the right way, since there was confusion about which way the water was going.
> 
> On the DHW thing - I assume that setup is a tankless coil in the coal boiler, in series with an electric hot water heater? Don't think that has been clarified for sure. If so, I think there are a couple of ways to improve that situation. First, don't mix down between the coil & electric heater as shown. Rather, put a mixer on the DHW-out of the electric water heater, between it and the taps. If that was still not satisfactory, you would for certain have all the hot water you would need if you added a small recirc pump (I have a B&G Ecorcirc E^3) that would circulate the water between coil & heater when there was no hot water being used. I control mine with a Johnson A419 in a FPHX setup. Also don't know how big the electric heater is either - but the bigger the better for that, if a lot of hot water is being used.


The water tank is on a bypass, and turned off. It's a 50 gal. I don't think I want the guy to touch it, he wanted to plumb into the emergency blow off valve as intake for the water heater. Doesn't sound safe to me. Don't want him to frig up more stuff.


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## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

layoric said:


> Like I said, that arrow was my mistake.


Like I said, the coal boiler pump, _*P1*_, is pumping up through the zone valves, not the LP boiler pump, _*P2*_, which is shown pumping down. (At least it is according to the 'This is the setup as it is NOW' diagram.)


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## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> That would take care of the DHW reserve problem nicely, which removes the main advantage of going with the figure-eight.
> 
> So now I would say don't do a series, don't do a figure-eight, and go ahead with figure 3 above with the addition of appropriate check valves or integrated flow-checks.  The water-hammer and overheating problems can be dealt with separately.


Where would the check valves go? I think one would go to the right of the zone valves dotted lines, just before the supply T connection, but the other one goes where, so as to get flow to the zone valves?


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## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> Like I said, the coal boiler pump, _*P1*_, is pumping up through the zone valves, not the LP boiler pump, _*P2*_, which is shown pumping down. (At least it is according to the 'This is the setup as it is NOW' diagram.)


Yeah, it looks like as it is now, the coal pump goes to zone valves and just sits there, waiting for a valve to open. I guess this is why it's overheating.


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## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

layoric said:


> Where would the check valves go? I think one would go to the right of the zone valves dotted lines, just before the supply T connection, but the other one goes where, so as to get flow to the zone valves?



In the third 'This should be the setup in PARALLEL' drawing (two check valves, one for each boiler):

For the P1 coal boiler circuit the check valve could go anywhere in the supply line after the supply bypass tee and before the next tee, or anywhere on the return side before the return bypass tee and after the tee on the return side of the LP boiler, or it could be a IFC, integrated flow check inside the P1 pump assembly itself if you go with an IFC type pump.

For the P2 LP boiler circuit the check valve could go anywhere in the same section that holds P2 itself (after the tee and before the boiler), or anywhere on the supply line leaving the LP boiler and before the first tee, or it could be a IFC, integrated flow check inside the P2 pump assembly itself if you go with an IFC type pump.


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## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

OK everyone, I think a parallel setup is best. Also, since it's almost there anyhow... So I can have the power for the zone valves / tstats moved to a separate circuit, that way which ever boiler is turned on, it's not dependent on the other for power. Now for the check valves, relating to the parallel diagram, where would they go exactly? I also believe that if the pumps are wired to turn off/on, then they will turn off with the zone valves - will that eliminate the water hammer issue as well?


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## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> In the third 'This should be the setup in PARALLEL' drawing (two check valves, one for each boiler):
> 
> For the P1 coal boiler circuit the check valve could go anywhere in the supply line after the supply bypass tee and before the next tee, or anywhere on the return side before the return bypass tee and after the tee on the return side of the LP boiler, or it could be a IFC, integrated flow check inside the P1 pump assembly itself if you go with an IFC type pump.
> 
> For the P2 LP boiler circuit the check valve could go anywhere in the same section that holds P2 itself (after the tee and before the boiler), or anywhere on the supply line leaving the LP boiler and before the first tee, or it could be a IFC, integrated flow check inside the P2 pump assembly itself if you go with an IFC type pump.


Is this the correct location/orientation for the check valves?
I believe I could then have the opposing boiler completely off (with valves/tstats powered separately), is that correct?

Thanks again ===


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## leon (Oct 26, 2014)

Water hammer is nasty because it can and will blow plumbing apart.  

I would install another bladder sized to your pump ahead of the zone
valves based on your diagrams.


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## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

For my last parallel diagram, will I need a 4006a installed?


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## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

layoric said:


> Is this the correct location/orientation for the check valves?
> I believe I could then have the opposing boiler completely off (with valves/tstats powered separately), is that correct?
> 
> Thanks again ===
> ...



The check valve on the PI return circuit is pointing the opposite direction of what you want.

The other check valve needs to go anywhere in the same section that holds P2 itself (after the tee and before the boiler on the return side of the LP boiler), or anywhere on the supply line leaving the LP boiler and before the first tee, or it could be a IFC, integrated flow check inside the P2 pump assembly itself if you go with an IFC type pump

Get a couple of these, one for each boiler. Will save a lot of electricity and will save the expense of sweating in separate check valves.  Also should help a lot with water hammer since they will adjust flow automatically according to how many zones are calling.  In the meantime just isolate the boiler you're not using with the valves you already have.

http://www.pexuniverse.com/grundfos-alpha-15-55f-lc-circulator-pump-w-ifc-1-6hp-115v


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## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2014)

layoric said:


> For my last parallel diagram, will I need a 4006a installed?



Edit: (thought you were talking about the 4006B)

Yes, the 4006a activates your 'dump zone' in case of overheat.  It is simply wired in parallel with the thermostat of the zone best suited as someplace to dump some excess heat in case the KAA-2 overshoots.  See page 11 of the manual:

http://www.keystoker.com/manuals/2012/Hot-Water-Boiler.pdf


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## layoric (Oct 26, 2014)

ewdudley said:


> Yes, the 4006a activates your 'dump zone' in case of overheat.  It is simply wired in parallel with the thermostat of the zone best suited as someplace to dump some excess heat in case the KAA-2 overshoots.  See page 11 of the manual:
> 
> http://www.keystoker.com/manuals/2012/Hot-Water-Boiler.pdf


Well, he's here now. Guess what? With the diagrams illustrating the zone valve directions, I was correct, however, he noticed another of his mistakes and said they're supposed to be pointing down, just as many of you stated. He's now flipping the zone valves... so, he's tied into the supply side at the end of the zone valve, and installed the 4006a off that new connection. The valves will be powered separately (not tied to boiler power directly), and also valves wired together to allow some crap I can't remember cause I'm spinning at this point. 

Now they're going in series, as it was explained by him to allow only the lp system to run when coal is out, off, or low temp. Also allows more recovery of domestic hw if coal can't keep up, which shouldn't happen as easily now, since there's now the loop between boilers. 

Hopefully this is all correct once completed. I have a frigging headache [emoji44]


----------



## leon (Oct 26, 2014)

layoric said:


> Well, he's here now.
> 
> Guess what? With the diagrams illustrating the zone valve directions, I was correct, however,
> he noticed another of his mistakes and said they're supposed to be pointing down,
> ...


 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yay!!  you should have plenty of domestic hot water now.

If you have to you can open the air shutters on the blowers now if you need more combustion
air to make more heat.


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## layoric (Oct 27, 2014)

Here's what seems to be a working setup now, no hammering either!


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## layoric (Oct 27, 2014)

OK, NO HEAT!
The guy tested the ZV's manually, but never the Tstats or radiators to ensure all was working. No water flow... WTH? Looks like the last ZV / zone got heat, but others before it did not. I don't get it...

Left messages on his 2 #'s. Pissed...


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## maple1 (Oct 27, 2014)

So - do you get heat when you open them manually?

Think this is now between you & him - hard to fix some things over the internets.


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## ewdudley (Oct 27, 2014)

So did you sign off on that last piping schematic before the guy started work?  I can't make any sense  out of it. 

Maybe you can post a photocopy of the electrical schematic that was drawn up before the job was started.  (As if.)

Looks like you're on your own as far as I'm concerned.


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## layoric (Oct 27, 2014)

No, didn't sign off an jack. I just wrote it out for what he did. I'm not on my own, unless you just mean you're not offering suggestions - not sure what you mean.

I figured out the ZV/room return lines, as stated several times, that was just confusing, but this is exactly what it is - including the returns. It looks to me as though there's no way for heated water to flow to the rooms...


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## layoric (Oct 27, 2014)

maple1 said:


> So - do you get heat when you open them manually?
> 
> Think this is now between you & him - hard to fix some things over the internets.


Nope.


----------



## leon (Oct 27, 2014)

It looks exactly as if the water flow is stalled completely
with the circuits you have drawn.

I still think you need a common return header pipe from
all four zones.


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## leon (Oct 27, 2014)

Hello Layoric,

I cannot blame you for being angry at all

The lack of a comom return header pipe routing the
cooler return water from the four zones is still the issue as the
heated water flows per the diagram are stalled and can go nowhere.
-----------------------------------------------------


Taking my basic wood and coal system into account which has been in use for 32 years-
old house/poor insulation with one loop.

I have a single air scoop with a  B+G air vent coming from my external domestic coil from my wood and coal boiler that splits into a T to feed both zones with one thermostat. Both zones return with a common header pipe back to the oil boiler.   

Both of the three speed B+G pumps pull hot water from the base of the oil boiler with one circulating the hot water through the homes baseboard.




The second pump is pumping hot water between both boilers to balance the water temperature between the boilers when burning wood and coal leaving the oil boiler to run only when the wood and coal boiler cannot supply the heat needed if the fire dies out.

Both of the three speed pumps in my system are on the lowest speed setting.  

I wish I could be of more help to you but your system was made complicated
when it did not have to be because of the zone valves "in my opinion" as heating at 62-65 degrees as I do the system can heat the home and lose the least amount heat through my poorly insulated home.


----------



## maple1 (Oct 27, 2014)

Thought we were almost there with the diagram in post 59 - except for the checkvalves mentioned in post 62.

And the dashed red arrows pointing up rather than down.

Don't know how you ended up with post 70 piping - was that his call?

Those isolation valves are making some confusion also - system should function the right way (either boiler can heat) without manual intervention & opening & closing of valves. And with them in the diagram like that, it is not known if they are open or closed or when.

About all I have left to say I think is good luck.


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## layoric (Oct 27, 2014)

Valves are open unless oriented to cross a line, so only the one is closed.
Spoke to a lawyer, he said installer should be given opportunity to fix it. I said, HE WAS, several times - lawyer didn't listen to me very well... However, got another hvac guy to come out, set for a time after installer coming BACK tomorrow.

Manufacturer said to do the following:



That gives you supply-return, supply-return. DONE. Keystoker said that wouldn't create a hammer either.
The installer was here for TWO hours, trying to figure out his own work... Then he said he didn't have the parts, would get them, and come back after another job tomorrow morning. I later realized he could have just disconnected his recent screwup connections and ran them to the correct points, without any new parts, but whatever - At this point I know what to do, but if I do it, and it still don't work, I don't want to be screwed on that. This will be the last time this guy comes out to figure this out, then I'm either going to do it on my own, or pay again, to someone else. The only thing I'd have to figure out would be wiring if I did it myself. I made a joke that perhaps he should just connect everything together with zone valves, and keep turning them until he got it to work! He laughed.... Then suggested, well, just think on what it should be from scratch if you can't figure it out, then eliminate from there what isn't needed, connect what is. Also suggested to consult someone else, gave him the 'current, as is now' diagram if he found a friend to do that, before he comes out (for the last time).

I have another guy scheduled to come out to look at it tomorrow evening as well. Spoke to the now third hvac guy over the phone, he was saying we don't use zone valves any longer, no one should. We install pumps on every zone, otherwise you can't drain the lines all the way.  ---- Pumps may be better, but the house only had one for years, and it worked just fine until it was fubar'd.


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## layoric (Oct 27, 2014)

Any further questions I'd have if I do it myself would be just wiring....


----------



## maple1 (Oct 27, 2014)

That still doesn't look quite right.

We also know very little about all your controls, and how they're wired & adjusted.

So, again, good luck.

(And I don't think I would agree with the last guy and his take on pumps vs. zone valves...)


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## Bob Rohr (Oct 27, 2014)

layoric said:


> he was saying we don't use zone valves any longer, no one should. We install pumps on every zone, otherwise you can't drain the lines all the way. ---- Pumps may be better, but the house only had one for years, and it worked just fine until it was fubar'd.




Boy you're finding some real dandys   Keep looking


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## layoric (Oct 27, 2014)

Bob Rohr said:


> Boy you're finding some real dandys   Keep looking


I think there are just a bunch of monkeys out here -


----------



## Paso (Oct 28, 2014)

Bob Rohr said:


> Series piping is never a good option for multiple boilers.  You are always flowing thru and un-fired boiler.  So a portion, possibly a large portion of the energy is going up the flue pipe and through jacket loss of dual boilers.
> 
> With series your dhw costs could offset what you are trying to save with coal as a source?



I found the loss is very negligible  with two boilers in series and in our supreme cold spells it is like a insurance policy against freeze up.

With all the problems the original poster has had,  a simple series set up would not have caused all the "grief"

I don't mean to be the dissenter or cause anyone to be offended but...... the OP wants to heat with cheap coal but if the coal goes out the propane furnace is right there on line ready to go without any attention, or action.
I switched to series and have been happy with the simplistic set up and spent my money on for when the power goes out.


----------



## layoric (Oct 28, 2014)

Well, the jerk didn't show up today to complete the work. Left messages, no answer on phone. I'm a member of a legal plan service, I think that's the route to go now...

The coal fire went out last night, bucket of useless ash mixed with coal. Propane boiler did NOT fire when it went down in water temperature. Apparently there's something mis-wired as well. Since I know what and how to plumb them correctly at this point, depending on what my 3rd boiler guy says (or if HE shows up), I'll be finishing the job myself. Today was the last warm day, we need heat.

So if I could get some assistance on wiring, I'll take any pics and document the best I can what I have. Thanks to everyone --


----------



## leon (Oct 28, 2014)

can you post some more pictures sometime?



layoric said:


> Well, the jerk didn't show up today to complete the work. Left messages, no answer on phone. I'm a member of a legal plan service, I think that's the route to go now...
> 
> The coal fire went out last night, bucket of useless ash mixed with coal. Propane boiler did NOT fire when it went down in water temperature. Apparently there's something mis-wired as well. Since I know what and how to plumb them correctly at this point, depending on what my 3rd boiler guy says (or if HE shows up), I'll be finishing the job myself. Today was the last warm day, we need heat.
> 
> So if I could get some assistance on wiring, I'll take any pics and document the best I can what I have. Thanks to everyone --


 
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Can you purchase a couple of paint pens from the local hardware store?

One white and one blue

Use the white one for the hot water to the zones to trace the flow to the four
zones and the blue one for the return piping if it is possible to trace it from
the four zones.

Once you have mapped the pipe routes for all the zones you can place flow direction arrows in the drawings for your use and for us to look at.

How far are you from Lindas Diner on Route 34 North in Locke????

You have a military term with your heating S.N.A.F.U.

                                        Situation Normal All F------d UP

Plumbing the boilers in series or parallel with a circulator dedicated only to
maintaining both the boiler temperatures with the second pump to pump
heated water to the zones is the way to go "IF" I was stabbed in the back
like this.

In for a penny in for a pound, is there any reason cannot you move the
propane boiler next to the coal stoker to simplify the pipe runs and to
solve your plumbing issues?? I fully realise you will need to add stove pipe
for the exhaust gas but you will gain simplicty in the plumbing in my opinion.

I would also have a nice long chat with the folks at Dennis Coal explaining once again the problems you are having with their installer.

And tell them you want your money back as this can and will be a red flag for them as crap still flows uphill when a subcontractor  screws up royally affecting a sellers potential sales in the future as goodwill in and of itself has tremendous value economically.

I would also let Mr. Somers know as this affects him and his partner as the manufacturers.


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## layoric (Oct 30, 2014)

leon said:


> can you post some more pictures sometime?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Guy finally called back yesterday. Said he had family issues. Yeah but you couldn't take 1 minute for a phone call? So he came back and after I showed him what and where to tie into, and him rewiring the lp boiler, everything is finally working! However, I had to bleed air out of a zone as he turned it all on with some of the valves off...

The lp boiler also fires on its own. Basically I told him we have to get this to look like the diagram. 

The only issue now is that I believe the lp boiler will only fire if a zone calls for heat, not if temp drops below its set temp of 140, so DHW may have an issue keeping up with demand. I believe I'll have to get an external storage tankas a buffer. If I can't figure that out I'll post another topic.


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## layoric (Oct 30, 2014)

Btw, the 3rd hvac guy never called or showed up for an estimate either.


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