# Geospring bad reviews



## velvetfoot

Really getting bad reviews here:
http://www.amazon.com/GE-GeoSpring-...iewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending


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## brant2000

That's interesting and somewhat surprising.  Someone I work with just asked me about advice on a new water heater and I starting pushing him towards a HPWH, namely the geospring.  I'll have to use caution in the future.  

I don't have any experience with this model, but am surprised that one of the flagship models of the industry would perform so poorly.  I have an Airtap add on HPWH that I've used for 3+ years with no issues.  After rebates, I actually made money on the unit, so I started out ahead.


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## AK13

Aren't there two versions of this water heater? The original blue top made in China and the newer red top made in the USA? I wonder which units are getting the bad reviews there. It sounds like maybe these are the older Chinese ones. Still, its not good if the company isn't supporting the product.


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## BrotherBart

Eeek! I was thinking more and more about installing one of these things. Now I think not. Think I will go down and pat the old electric water heater on the head.


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## brant2000

They're not the best choice, but conventional electric water heaters get a bad rap.  I'm always surprised to see how the propane industry is pushing everyone (and people are biting) towards tankless water heaters.  Especially when propane often costs more per BTU than electricity.  Just think about if the elecric industry started advertising that these new electric water heaters are 100% efficient, people would switch back.


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## velvetfoot

AK13 said:


> Aren't there two versions of this water heater? The original blue top made in China and the newer red top made in the USA? I wonder which units are getting the bad reviews there. It sounds like maybe these are the older Chinese ones. Still, its not good if the company isn't supporting the product.


The red top is also getting bad reviews.  
On the Lowes site, they seem to love 'em.

OH, WAIT A SEC:  They're all from the GE website, "Written by a customer while visiting geappliances.com "
I think that explains a lot.


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## begreen

I can't talk myself into replacing our basic electric hw heater with one of these units. Our hw bill is not high enough to justify the expense.


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## velvetfoot

They're 699 at my Lowes and 599 in CT.


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## AK13

Plus you can get a $500 rebate from a lot of utilities which brings the cost way down to the same as an electric tank or maybe even cheaper. 

Its too bad they are having problems with these units. The GE's seem to be the most popular by far because they are the cheapest and they are going to give HPWH's as a whole a bad reputation.  I'd like to get one, but I have propane now and even though this would save me money to operate I'd have to have my panel rewired to power an electric/heat pump unit.


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## begreen

Our local utility offered the same deal for awhile so that they were essentially free. Now they are about $199 after rebate I think. Still couldn't talk myself into installing one.


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## begreen

AK13 said:


> Aren't there two versions of this water heater? The original blue top made in China and the newer red top made in the USA? I wonder which units are getting the bad reviews there. It sounds like maybe these are the older Chinese ones. Still, its not good if the company isn't supporting the product.


The red top one doesn't get raves either:
http://www.amazon.com/GEH50DEEDSR-GeoSpring-Hybrid-Electric-Heater/dp/B00826MC3W/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t


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## mellow

Glad I have held off as well,  I have a natural gas hot water heater in my shed out back so it takes a while for the hot water to get into the house, I was going to put one of these in my unconditioned attic.  Guess I will just wait longer to see if they get the bugs worked out   Natural gas one has been going good for 10 years so I figure any year now that is going to fail.


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## BrotherBart

Yeah the reviews on the Lowe's site will be positive. The "smart" water heater we have came from Lowe's. They all had a bad circuit board and the manufacturer kept ignoring everybody. I finally sent a letter to the manufacturer giving them ten days and I was suing Lowe's in small claims court. On day eight a new updated circuit board and instructions for the five minute installation magically showed up in the mail. After months of them denying anything was wrong with them.

All of the reviews on the Lowe's site raved about them and the one negative I posted never showed up there.


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## woodgeek

Interesting.  Not easy to tell what is going on with amazon reviews.  Folks will buy one model, and then post reviews on a different model years later, v confusing.

There were clearly some lemon units in the first run a few years ago, and it seems that GE is making good on repairs (and reimbursement for energy bills) with many of these commenters.  Are these 5% of units or 50%??

Lots of geospring users on the site....anyone have any problems?

My AOSmith HPWH seems ok, 22 mos in.


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## Justin M

I've had mine since August '13.   It's the new American made version.   So far it has worked perfectly and I am very happy with it.


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## WiscWoody

brant2000 said:


> They're not the best choice, but conventional electric water heaters get a bad rap.  I'm always surprised to see how the propane industry is pushing everyone (and people are biting) towards tankless water heaters.  Especially when propane often costs more per BTU than electricity.  Just think about if the elecric industry started advertising that these new electric water heaters are 100% efficient, people would switch back.


Right now up here the rate for 1,000,000 BTU is $32.23 at $0.11 per KWh. The same BTU's for Propane is $22 @ $2.00 a gallon. I buy my propane in July and it has never cost more than $1.50 a gallon and the gas I have now cost me $1.24 a gallon so I don't see how propane often costs more than electricity unless maybe if you use a Marathon heater and a low off peak electric rate which isn't available here.


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## Dave A.

WiscWoody said:


> I buy my propane in July and it has never cost more than $1.50 a gallon and the gas I have now cost me $1.24 a gallon so I don't see how propane often costs more than electricity



I suspect that's because you're looking at the midwest pricing for propane which seems to be cheaper than anywhere else.  In the NE it appears to be a lot higher.  My last price was close to $3/gal and I'm afraid to call for a fill up as I suspect it's gone up even higher, though maybe if I can wait a bit longer the price will come down a bit.  Also, I can only store 250 gal and use about twice that a year so need to buy more often than once a year.
Price of elec is about $.15 kwh, so I'm about right in figuring spot heating with space heaters is about the same if not less than LP for me, not even considering 100% efficiency for elec vs 80% for LP, along with the fact that I can limit more the areas of where I add heat with electric.


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## WiscWoody

Yes, the best way to heat your home or DHW is different for many. My furnace is 95% efficient and I've taken steps to make my HWH more efficient with a automatic damper and a blanket. And with a wood stove for heat and a larger LPG tank I can fill it when LPG is in low demand hence cheaper during the summer. My electric bill that came just days ago shows I only used 244 KWh and that's typical.


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## Highbeam

WiscWoody said:


> Right now up here the rate for 1,000,000 BTU is $32.23 at $0.11 per KWh. The same BTU's for Propane is $22 @ $2.00 a gallon. I buy my propane in July and it has never cost more than $1.50 a gallon and the gas I have now cost me $1.24 a gallon so I don't see how propane often costs more than electricity unless maybe if you use a Marathon heater and a low off peak electric rate which isn't available here.


 

Uh oh, mistakes here. An average storage tank propane water heater has an EF of .6, so only 60% of the input energy goes to heat water. An average electric tank water heater has an EF of 0.90. So let's run your numbers again with the "reality toggle" engaged. Now electric costs you 35.81 per million and propane costs you 37.00 per million.

Dang. Propane does cost more than electric using the old technology. Not to mention you have to deal with buying and storing propane when your house already has unlimited electric piped to it.

You can spec out a propane heating unit that condenses and has no tank and you could get 95% steady state efficiency but that efficiency only occurs during a long burn when everything is warmed up and not a typical of a hot water draw. You can also spec out a heat pump water heater that gets 300% efficiency so that blows propane out of the hot water.


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## velvetfoot

Highbeam said:


> You can also spec out a heat pump water heater that gets 300% efficiency so that blows propane out of the hot water.


As long as it keeps working.


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## Highbeam

velvetfoot said:


> As long as it keeps working.


 
Yes, as shown in this thread. There are other brands and superior technologies but I am still an electric tank heater type guy. For me it's the noise these HPWHs make, ridiculous.


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## AK13

Highbeam said:


> So let's run your numbers again with the "reality toggle" engaged. .........
> 
> You can also spec out a heat pump water heater that gets 300% efficiency so that blows propane out of the hot water.



Hey, I thought the reality toggle was engaged! I am a fan of HPWH's, but nobody who lives in the north half of the country is getting 300% efficiency in the winter time unless they have an awful lot of waste heat to capture out of a boiler room or something. The reality is that many if not most folks are going to be either using the electric resistance mode of the HPWH or "stealing" from their home heating system to make hot water in the winter.  

I think that claiming 200-250% efficiency is more realistic if the reality toggle is still on.


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## velvetfoot

Highbeam said:


> For me it's the noise these HPWHs make, ridiculous.


Yes, I love the quietness of the resistance models.  However, if I'm going to get dehumidification out of it, and only run it during the summer when a dehumidifier would be running anyway....


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## WiscWoody

I have no proof on hand but I'd think that a direct vent DHWH captures more than six tenths of the heat being they use PVC for a vent....?


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## Highbeam

WiscWoody said:


> I have no proof on hand but I'd think that a direct vent DHWH captures more than six tenths of the heat being they use PVC for a vent....?


 
Here's an above average one which captures 68% of the heat and uses PVC, ABS, etc. for venting.

http://www.pexsupply.com/AO-Smith-G...onnection-LP?gclid=CLCgruTTs70CFcyTfgodLxgAxw


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## woodgeek

The low EFs on combustion HWH units are due to losses through the flue when the flame is not on, not low combustion efficiency.


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## semipro

I'll probably regret saying this but our blue top Geospring has performed flawlessly for at least 2 (maybe 3) years now 
-- its hard to type with fingers crossed.


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## Jocko1

I am looking at this unit to replace an indirect oil fired unit. New pellet stove heats my entire house.  I am thinking about plumbing it in around the indirect and shutting indiect it down until it gets really cold down in my basement.  Basement stays around 50 until it gets bitterly cold out. Any advice?


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## velvetfoot

I'm thinking of doing the same thing.  The dehumidification attracts me. If not using oil for heat, I'd say run the electric water heater-even resistance is better than getting a boiler involved.  At least it was, until last winter's electricity spikes; not sure anymore.


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## woodgeek

Jocko1 said:


> I am looking at this unit to replace an indirect oil fired unit. New pellet stove heats my entire house.  I am thinking about plumbing it in around the indirect and shutting indiect it down until it gets really cold down in my basement.  Basement stays around 50 until it gets bitterly cold out. Any advice?



If its a normal full basement, I wouldn't expect it to cool you off too much.  In my attached 2-car garage, my HPWH might drop the temp a degree or two.  45-50°F is where these units start to switch over to straight resistance electric (to avoid frost on their coils), so if you thought your indirect was cheaper to run, that is indeed when you would switch it over.  

In NJ, I would think you could take some modest steps to airseal/insulate your rim/sills or windows to get the min temp above 50°F all of the time...and then you could retire the indirect, or only use it when you were having 10 relatives crashing at your place and needing showers.


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## Jocko1

woodgeek said:


> If its a normal full basement, I wouldn't expect it to cool you off too much.  In my attached 2-car garage, my HPWH might drop the temp a degree or two.  45-50°F is where these units start to switch over to straight resistance electric (to avoid frost on their coils), so if you thought your indirect was cheaper to run, that is indeed when you would switch it over.
> 
> In NJ, I would think you could take some modest steps to airseal/insulate your rim/sills or windows to get the min temp above 50°F all of the time...and then you could retire the indirect, or only use it when you were having 10 relatives crashing at your place and needing showers.


If my wife had ten relatives staying at my house I would mysteriously  disappear for a while I wouldn't care how much fast the hot water went out!


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## jdp1152

I've been using the red one since Dec 2012 and haven't had any issues, knock on wood since it seems many of these reviews are for years 1.5-3.  All of 2013 I was able to keep it in heat pump mode, but had to bump to Hybrid during the deep freeze this winter because the basement temps dropped quite a bit.  Just switched it over to heat pump only again and haven't heard any complaints from the family.  

With online reviews there are always going to be be confounding factors....people tend to post more when something is wrong vs something going right.  I certainly haven't followed up with a positive review mainly because I don't think about it.



woodgeek said:


> Interesting.  Not easy to tell what is going on with amazon reviews.  Folks will buy one model, and then post reviews on a different model years later, v confusing.
> 
> There were clearly some lemon units in the first run a few years ago, and it seems that GE is making good on repairs (and reimbursement for energy bills) with many of these commenters.  *Are these 5% of units or 50%*??
> 
> Lots of geospring users on the site....anyone have any problems?
> 
> My AOSmith HPWH seems ok, 22 mos in.


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## jdp1152

I never hear it run....it's in the basement directly under my living room and never have I heard it.  I can hear the pump on the well and the pump on my geothermal units running more so than the water heater (all in the same room).  Even next to it when it's in HP mode, I don't really find it very loud.  Probably wouldn't want it in my living space, but requiring more square footage or a vented closet makes that pretty pointless IMO.



Highbeam said:


> Yes, as shown in this thread. There are other brands and superior technologies but I am still an electric tank heater type guy. For me it's the noise these HPWHs make, ridiculous.


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## Jocko1

I have a family of 4, two adults and two kids. Will the 50 gallon geospring be sufficient?


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## DBoon

Jocko1 said:


> I have a family of 4, two adults and two kids. Will the 50 gallon geospring be sufficient?


I'd say it depends on how water efficient your household is.  a HPWH takes about three to four times longer to recover in heat-pump only mode (where the savings are) when the tank needs heat.  If you have already invested in water saving appliances (dishwasher, washing machine) and low-flow showerheads, and if your kids are not of the age where they are taking 30 minute showers, then _maybe._ 

Another consideration - how "bought in" is your wife to trying something new in order to save some money and/or get the side benefit of a dehumidified basement?  If she is not bought in, then I am sure you can expect that every time your family does two loads of laundry in quick succession while running the dishwasher just before someone jumps in the shower, you can be sure that you will hear about what a "dumb idea" that new water heater was when your last one worked just fine.  Remember that most people's idea of a good hot water heater is one that never leaves them without hot water.  If wife and/or family buy in is low, go with a larger tank as it will be more likely to meet their most important needs.  

If someone in your house takes longer showers and drains the tank of hot water, then some re-education may be in order for a HPWH to work well for you, otherwise, you will have to set it to hybrid/electric backup mode and will negate some of the savings.  

Remember also that a HPWH really works best with a temperature setting of 120-125 degrees F.  I used to set my electric water heater to 140 degrees F (and had it on an overnight timer) and that would allow more "capacity" of usage.  That also says "larger tank for a family of four".


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## Jocko1

DBoon said:


> I'd say it depends on how water efficient your household is.  a HPWH takes about three to four times longer to recover in heat-pump only mode (where the savings are) when the tank needs heat.  If you have already invested in water saving appliances (dishwasher, washing machine) and low-flow showerheads, and if your kids are not of the age where they are taking 30 minute showers, then _maybe._
> 
> Another consideration - how "bought in" is your wife to trying something new in order to save some money and/or get the side benefit of a dehumidified basement?  If she is not bought in, then I am sure you can expect that every time your family does two loads of laundry in quick succession while running the dishwasher just before someone jumps in the shower, you can be sure that you will hear about what a "dumb idea" that new water heater was when your last one worked just fine.  Remember that most people's idea of a good hot water heater is one that never leaves them without hot water.  If wife and/or family buy in is low, go with a larger tank as it will be more likely to meet their most important needs.
> 
> If someone in your house takes longer showers and drains the tank of hot water, then some re-education may be in order for a HPWH to work well for you, otherwise, you will have to set it to hybrid/electric backup mode and will negate some of the savings.
> 
> Remember also that a HPWH really works best with a temperature setting of 120-125 degrees F.  I used to set my electric water heater to 140 degrees F (and had it on an overnight timer) and that would allow more "capacity" of usage.  That also says "larger tank for a family of four".


WOW,
Thanks for that answer,  maybe I will go with the bigger tank, I really don't need to here anymore complaining from her.


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## Justin M

I have a family of 4 and don't have any problem in heat pump only mode.   Thay being said, we do try to stagger showers/baths, and the use of the dish and clothes washers.  We set the dish washer on a timer to run over night.  I replaced an indirect oil fired set up that was only being used for hot water and I would definitely buy the Geospring again given the opportunity.


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## woodgeek

I had concerns about HW volume with two tween girls, so I went with an 80 gallon HPWH from AOSmith.  Cost about $900 more, and while I like the unit, which is more efficient than the gen 1 geosprings, the HW capacity seems well north of what I need....with low-flow shower heads I seem to get well over 60 minutes of shower time.

I suspect the geospring would have done the job for me.

Remember that you have fast recovery and better first hour rating in Hybrid mode, at lower eff.   If you did have a problem, you could just switch to hybrid.  It would still run in HP most of the time and save you money.


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## jdp1152

I have a family of three and a wife who takes insanely long showers and my kid takes baths in a tub much larger than a typical one. We have only had issue when we have house guests.  But that's a lesson learned and easy remedy is putting on hybrid or high demand mode in those occasions.  I keep mine set at the lowest it will go (either 120 or 125, can't recall).


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## mustash29

If anyone is hyped for a HPWH but on the fence about the GE unit, if you already have a tank or indirect, the Nyletherm 1 is < 400 shipped on E-Bay, or the 2nd generation Geyser is about 850-900 depending on which temp control you need.  More $ but excellent reviews and nearly an industrial strength build from what I hear.

I believe that will be my route:  80 gal indirect w/ wood or oil for the coil & a Nyle for the off season.


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## velvetfoot

You wouldn't have electric resistance boost then.


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## mustash29

At 3.0 gpm x 2 adults x 15 min back to back showers on full hot @ 110 deg, 80 gal in reserve will be plenty.  We use a few gal for washing dishes after breakfast / dinner, rarely ever use warm or hot for the clothes, etc.  We don't need resistance backup.

My 80 gal indirect has an upper and a lower annode rod.  I've contemplated installing an element in one of those ports, with an additional thermal well / acquastat in the recirculation port that we will otherwise not use.

https://www.slantfin.com/products/other-products/indirect-water-heater.html

https://www.slantfin.com/images/stories/Technical-Literature/dimensionaldata_hwt_dim.pdf


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## Highbeam

velvetfoot said:


> You wouldn't have electric resistance boost then.


 
As I understand it, you leave the electric tank water heater elements energized at a lower setpoint than the nyle so that the nyule does the job if it can and then the resistance elements kick on at a lower temp.


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## velvetfoot

That's no what mustach29 is planning, for now at least:
"I believe that will be my route: 80 gal indirect w/ wood or oil for the coil & a Nyle for the off season."


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## Highbeam

mustash29 said:


> If anyone is hyped for a HPWH but on the fence about the GE unit, if you already have a tank or indirect, the Nyletherm 1 is < 400 shipped on E-Bay


 
Or was he.... I would also want a backup to the NYLE. If you use an existing tank heater then you have your backup built in. If you use an indirect storage tank then yes, you would be stuck if that Nyle couldn't keep up.


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## mustash29

Just about anything is better then the oil tankless coil I have now.

My first "find" was a Crown Mega Stor 40 for dirt cheap.  It has a pinhole in the coil.  If I cap the coil off, it will be quite usefull as an atmospheric surge tank / cistern for my Empyre Elite / storage tank project.

My next option was a _functional_ indirect.  I got a good deal on the Slant Fin unit.  Crossing my fingers that the "titanium glass lined" steel will last a decent while.  From my research, having adequate water hammer protection is key for longevity of the lining.  Water hammer, such as dishwasher and washing machine solenoids slamming shut cause enough of a hammer that it kills any glass lined tank prematurely.

I then learned about HPWH's.  I like the GeoSpring.  At 599 in CT right now it's a good deal, but it has it's share of past issues.  When the HP or tank fails, you are left with a derranged mess.  I think the Nyle 1 or Geyser is a far better option when hooked to a functioning tank.


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## roadking88

BrotherBart said:


> Yeah the reviews on the Lowe's site will be positive. The "smart" water heater we have came from Lowe's. They all had a bad circuit board and the manufacturer kept ignoring everybody. I finally sent a letter to the manufacturer giving them ten days and I was suing Lowe's in small claims court. On day eight a new updated circuit board and instructions for the five minute installation magically showed up in the mail. After months of them denying anything was wrong with them.
> 
> All of the reviews on the Lowe's site raved about them and the one negative I posted never showed up there.


what heater was that??? i'm looking at one now..this one seems to be ok...
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...06-135-ES40R92-45D&storeId=10151&rel=nofollow


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## BrotherBart

roadking88 said:


> what heater was that??? i'm looking at one now..this one seems to be ok...



They are all different now. Mine was ten years ago.


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## semipro

Another interesting discussion on HPWH including the GeoSpring here:
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/co...-50-gallon-hybrid-heat-pump-water-heater.html


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## CenterTree

We need a new water heater soon.

Started looking into these HeatPump units this week.   Read a lot of bad about the GepSpring too.

Researched to find the Electrolux EE66WP30PS Electric Hybrid Heat Pump to be a nice premium product as far as HPWH go.

Yeah, very pricey too!
http://www.big-georges.com/EE66WP30PS.aspx#prettyPhoto

Stainless steel tank though. And a $300 rebate.


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## Longstreet

Can someone convince me why we shouldn't be looking at the Marathon heaters instead?

http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html

I know a HPWH is more "efficient" but shouldn't expected lifespan and maintenance be factored in?  $120 for new elements is basically the only cost you will ever incur.  If you are putting a HPWH into the landfill every 10-15 years (warranty looks to be 10), are you really even doing anything better for the environment over one of the marathon ones?


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## woodgeek

A good question.... The difference in elec usage between the HPWH and the marathon might be 1500-2000 kWh/year.  Let's be conservative and say they just make their warranty period, 10 years typically (GE hopefully has good data on their units, and was hoping to turn a profit when it set the warranty period).  So that is 15000 kWh.  At US average rates ($.15/kWh) that is $2250 is lower energy bills, conservatively.  Given that the HWH unit costs are not all that different....this easily pays for a replacement every 10 years.  And this does not factor in (1) elec will get more expensive (maybe) (2) the units will get more reliable and (3) they may get more efficient (after 10 years).

As for sending one to the landfill....15,000 kWh corresponds to about 10 tonnes of CO2 at typical US production mix, the same as burning ~800 gallons of gasoline, diesel or fuel oil.  The raw resources and energy required to produce the unit (remember steel is highly recyclable) likely have a smaller C footprint than that of the energy saved (e.g. based on the mass of the unit versus the mass of the FF saved).

One concern is the refrigerant, mine has R-134a, which is a potent greenhouse gas.  If your unit leaked out a couple pounds of refrigerant, or did so several times with replacement at the end of the life cycle, then GHG effects might partially negate CO2 savings.  IMO this is a non-issue....if your system leaks, don't get it serially refilled, replace it.  Also, the lifetime of refrigerant in the atmosphere is << than that of CO2, it'll be gone by 2100, and it doesn't acidify the ocean.  Hopefully whoever hauls it away at end of life recovers the refrigerant.


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## CenterTree

Longstreet said:


> Can someone convince me why we shouldn't be looking at the Marathon heaters instead?
> 
> http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html
> 
> I know a HPWH is more "efficient" but *shouldn't expected lifespan and maintenance* be factored in?  $120 for new elements is basically the only cost you will ever incur.  If you are putting a HPWH into the landfill every 10-15 years (warranty looks to be 10), are you really even doing anything better for the environment over one of the marathon ones?


I like the idea of the Marathon also. (as far as longevity goes).
That is why I would NOT consider buying a HPWH that was not a STAINLESS STEEL unit.  

The Marathon seems to have the best idea (poly) for anti-corrosion... however it still is no more efficient than a regular* metal *water tank.  

The HPWH have an energy factor up to 2.34.
The Marathon is only still at .93. 

My biggest hesitation in buying a HPWH right now is the maintenance or failure rate of such units.

What good is an expensive, energy efficient system if it is often in need of costly repair?

Still undecided here.


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## CenterTree

Also.  The Marathon is not even "EnergyStar" qualified,
therefore, eliminating any rebates from utility companies here.  

To qualify for rebates the unit must have a rating of at least .95

The highest Marathon is .94.


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## Longstreet

woodgeek said:


> A good question.... The difference in elec usage between the HPWH and the marathon might be 1500-2000 kWh/year.  Let's be conservative and say they just make their warranty period, 10 years typically (GE hopefully has good data on their units, and was hoping to turn a profit when it set the warranty period).  So that is 15000 kWh.  At US average rates ($.15/kWh) that is $2250 is lower energy bills, conservatively.  Given that the HWH unit costs are not all that different....this easily pays for a replacement every 10 years.  And this does not factor in (1) elec will get more expensive (maybe) (2) the units will get more reliable and (3) they may get more efficient (after 10 years).
> 
> As for sending one to the landfill....15,000 kWh corresponds to about 10 tonnes of CO2 at typical US production mix, the same as burning ~800 gallons of gasoline, diesel or fuel oil.  The raw resources and energy required to produce the unit (remember steel is highly recyclable) likely have a smaller C footprint than that of the energy saved (e.g. based on the mass of the unit versus the mass of the FF saved).
> 
> One concern is the refrigerant, mine has R-134a, which is a potent greenhouse gas.  If your unit leaked out a couple pounds of refrigerant, or did so several times with replacement at the end of the life cycle, then GHG effects might partially negate CO2 savings.  IMO this is a non-issue....if your system leaks, don't get it serially refilled, replace it.  Also, the lifetime of refrigerant in the atmosphere is << than that of CO2, it'll be gone by 2100, and it doesn't acidify the ocean.  Hopefully whoever hauls it away at end of life recovers the refrigerant.



Thank you, that is exactly the kind of in-depth analyst I was hoping to get!




CenterTree said:


> Also.  The Marathon is not even "EnergyStar" qualified,
> therefore, eliminating any rebates from utility companies here.
> 
> To qualify for rebates the unit must have a rating of at least .95
> 
> The highest Marathon is .94.



The Marathon is eligible for a $525 rebate for Georgia Power customers switching from Nat Gas (like myself), so it is obviously ymmv.  My rate is about 10.5kWh cents all in, so the efficiency gap closes a little in that regard.


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## CenterTree

Longstreet said:


> *The Marathon is eligible for a $525 rebate* for Georgia Power customers switching from Nat Gas (like myself), so it is obviously ymmv.  My rate is about 10.5kWh cents all in, so the efficiency gap closes a little in that regard.


WOW!  Then it seems to be a "no-brainer" for you.  You can get the poly Marathon for the same price as a regular steel model it seems. Cool.


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## Seasoned Oak

My regular $199.00  30 Gal WH works so well, and i dont even see a difference in my electric bill when i turn it on for the summer taking care of a 5 person household. My guess is it uses no more electric than the fans and pumps on my boiler which dont run in the summer.


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## DBoon

Longstreet said:


> Can someone convince me why we shouldn't be looking at the Marathon heaters instead?


I have a Marathon HWH with a Geyser heat pump.  Works pretty well.  I use the Marathon upper heating elements in the winter when the basement gets too cold to run the Geyser.  

A Marathon won't save you money on your electric bill.  Other things, like building a heat trap and adding more insulation to the tank, will do more to save energy.  Of course, the Geyser cuts my usage in half when I run it in spring, fall, and summer.  

I bought the Marathon so that I would never have to worry about a leaky water heater tank flooding my basement.  And I bought it once and it should last through three or four regular water heaters.


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## Brian26

For those in CT you can get this at Lowes's now for $599 with a $400 rebate from UI or CLP. Might be able to use a $300 federal one as well witch would basically pay you to install it. That price only comes up with a CT zip code.

I put mine in over a year ago. Zero issues with it. Got it for less than $200 with utility/federal rebates. Saved me around $20+ a month on my electric bill. It's already paid for itself and I am ahead. I also bought the 10 year full labor/parts warranty for Lowes for $99. I love mine as it also dehumidifies my basement.

The savings are pretty incredible. Uses 550 watts in heat pump mode compared to using 4500 on regular electric element.


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## Seasoned Oak

I think ill wait till they have a better track record to even consider one.


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## AK13

[quote="CenterTree, post: 1721430, member: 6613"
The Marathon seems to have the best idea (poly) for anti-corrosion... however it still is no more efficient than a regular* metal *water tank.  
[/quote]

I disagree about poly being best for anti-corrosion. I believe that Hubbell has better solution with their concrete lined tanks. Though I will admit they are a bit heavy 

http://www.hubbellheaters.com/model/pbx/

http://www.hubbellheaters.com/hydrastone-cement/


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## Brian26

Seasoned Oak said:


> I think ill wait till they have a better track record to even consider one.



At least here in CT with utility incentives it's a no brainer. You can basically get one for almost free. 400$ local utility rebate plus $300 federal. 

If you buy it from Lowes you can get a $99.97 service plan that covers everything. 

*Traditional Water Heater Protection*
Traditional water heaters are typically covered by a manufacturer’s warranty, which provides parts and labor protection for one year and parts-only protection after the first year. A Lowe’s Extended Protection Plan offers additional labor coverage not provided under the manufacturer's warranty. Plan starts after manufacturer’s labor warranty ends, if any. If the manufacturer does not offer a labor warranty, which is typical of tankless water heaters, Plan starts on date of purchase.‡




We’ll cover repairs due to power surge from date of plan purchase.
We'll cover the labor costs of reinstallation from the date of plan purchase if your water heater can’t be repaired and needs to be replaced.
If your product can't be fixed, we'll replace it.


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## woodgeek

The wary should also consider that if the compressor fails, you can switch the unit to heating elements until the compressor can be serviced...you would presumably still have HW.

Also, when the tank is 'glass-lined steel" the life depends on the anode rod.  I believe the geosprings have a heavy-duty magnesium rod, thus the long warranty.  The bad news is that it is hard to replace DIY (at least in the Gen 1).

My AO Smith has a powered, rather than sacrificial anode, so it should last more than 10 years, rather than until the anode is rotted away.


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## Brian26

woodgeek said:


> The wary should also consider that if the compressor fails, you can switch the unit to heating elements until the compressor can be serviced...you would presumably still have HW.
> 
> Also, when the tank is 'glass-lined steel" the life depends on the anode rod.  I believe the geosprings have a heavy-duty magnesium rod, thus the long warranty.  The bad news is that it is hard to replace DIY (at least in the Gen 1).
> 
> My AO Smith has a powered, rather than sacrificial anode, so it should last more than 10 years, rather than until the anode is rotted away.



The geospring's do have a heavy duty anode rod.

Its really amazing how much less power is used in heat pump only mode compared to running the 4500 watt elements. I have an Efergy whole house energy monitor an mine pulls around 500 watts when running in heat pump only mode.

My girlfriend and I can take back to back showers and the compressor will run for 1-2 hours depending on the basement air temp.

Here in CT electricity is crazy expensive. 2nd or 3rd highest in the us at around .20-.22 KWH. Another thing to keep in mind that the advertised savings are in hybrid mode were it uses both heat pump and electric elements. I have found ours to cost around $6-8 dollars a month to run in heat pump only mode.

As a comparison my previous home had a natural gas fired conventional 40 gallon tank. The connection charge alone was $15 a month just to be connected. 

Also, I get water in my basement and have humidity issues. Even bigger savings for us not having to run a dehumidifier. I believe that humidity also increases the efficiency as well.


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## maple1

woodgeek said:


> The wary should also consider that if the compressor fails, you can switch the unit to heating elements until the compressor can be serviced...you would presumably still have HW.
> 
> Also, when the tank is 'glass-lined steel" the life depends on the anode rod.  I believe the geosprings have a heavy-duty magnesium rod, thus the long warranty.  The bad news is that it is hard to replace DIY (at least in the Gen 1).
> 
> My AO Smith has a powered, rather than sacrificial anode, so it should last more than 10 years, rather than until the anode is rotted away.


 

About anode rods - is their life related to how much the electric elements get used? I was under the impression that anode rods really come into play with electric elements in the water - so if they never or rarely get used, the rods would last a long time? Or do I have the wrong impression?


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## woodgeek

That was not my understanding...I thought that it depended somewhat on water chemistry....why some folks get very short lives with their HWHs.  Basically a chemical reaction at the anode keeps the glass liner at a potential where galvanic attack will not occur....until the anode is gone.  In a powered anode that voltage is maintained with an electrical supply, rather than a galvanic reaction on the anode rod.  So it is 'permanent'.


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## Seasoned Oak

Since i only need to heat water electrically about 4 months a year, my good old conventional electric WH fills the bill.


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## sloeffle

If they made a HPHW with a poly tank ( aka Marathon ) I would be sold. I can remember as a kid hearing my dad cussing up a storm. He walked down to the basement and there was water everywhere from the hot water heater springing a leak. We then spent the rest of the day replacing it. That is for the birds IMHO.

I will pay the 20$ a month to run my Marathon vs losing my 15k furnace and all of the other stuff in my basement.


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## Ashful

The big trouble I see with many of these add-on HPWH's is the method by which they connect to your existing tank creates an enormous restriction.  Why would I want to put a 1/2" dip tube coaxially inside my 3/4" outlet fitting?  The house was plumbed with 3/4" because that's what I need to keep up with multiple appliances running simultaneously, not on a whim without reason.

Has anyone seen any add-on HPWH that does not rely on a similar restrictive hookup?


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## velvetfoot

The coaxial pipe is not in the outlet, it's in the drain.


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## Ashful

velvetfoot said:


> The coaxial pipe is not in the outlet, it's in the drain.


Whether it's on the outlet or on the incoming cold water, it's still a direct restriction on the water received at your respective appliances.  We have three showers, 2 tubs, 14 sinks, 2 dishwashers, clothes washer, etc.  Not uncommon that three or four of these appliances are running at the same time.


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## maple1

Joful said:


> Whether it's on the outlet or on the incoming cold water, it's still a direct restriction on the water received at your respective appliances.  We have three showers, 2 tubs, 14 sinks, 2 dishwashers, clothes washer, etc.  Not uncommon that three or four of these appliances are running at the same time.


 
He said it's in the drain.

If it's in the drain, it's only a restriction when you're draining the tank.


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## mellow

On the Geospring specs it says 3/4" inlet/outlet.


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## Seasoned Oak

Joful said:


> Whether it's on the outlet or on the incoming cold water, it's still a direct restriction on the water received at your respective appliances.  We have three showers, 2 tubs, 14 sinks, 2 dishwashers, clothes washer, etc.  Not uncommon that three or four of these appliances are running at the same time.


Even 3/4 " may not keep up with that combination. A pex array with a manifold and enough pressure would do a good job.


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## Seasoned Oak

sloeffle said:


> If they made a HPHW with a poly tank ( aka Marathon ) I would be sold. t.


What makes them so expensive. Is it just the fact that a poly tank cost so much more than a steel one? Home depot sells them but only carries 50 gal and larger. Way too big for me.


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## Ashful

maple1 said:


> He said it's in the drain.
> 
> If it's in the drain, it's only a restriction when you're draining the tank.


I misread him, primarily because I think he is wrong.  When adding a HPWH to an indirect system, such as an Amtrol Boilermate (likely the most popular indirect system of all time), there is usually a coaxial fitting installed at the dip tube, on top of the storage tank.

The primary problem here is that these systems are usually specified to run as direct systems, so adding them to an indirect system is always a kludge.  What I've never been able to understand is why you could not just add it in series with the boiler, on the indirect side of the system.  I'm guessing it's because they either don't deliver sufficient BTU's to work this way, or can't handle the potential heat from the boiler loop.


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## maple1

Joful said:


> I misread him, primarily because I think he is wrong.  When adding a HPWH to an indirect system, such as an Amtrol Boilermate (likely the most popular indirect system of all time), there is usually a coaxial fitting installed at the dip tube, on top of the storage tank.
> 
> The primary problem here is that these systems are usually specified to run as direct systems, so adding them to an indirect system is always a kludge.  What I've never been able to understand is why you could not just add it in series with the boiler, on the indirect side of the system.  I'm guessing it's because they either don't deliver sufficient BTU's to work this way, or can't handle the potential heat from the boiler loop.


 
I don't think he was wrong. Pretty sure he has his tied to his drain.

There are lots of happy users of add-on heat pumps who have them hooked to indirect tanks - 'kludge' or not. They don't need to use coaxial fittings - I suspect those were intoduced to make installation easy for those tanks with drain ports. I would suspect the majority of installs don't use them, whether they have a drain port or not.

A series install on the boiler water side won't work well because HPHWs raise the temps of the water in stages, on multiple passes - no, they don't pump out the BTUs. Anyone expecting the heat generation capactity of a boiler or demand heater will be sorely disappointed. Although, some are adding HPWHs on to their hot water storage tanks to maintain their temps.

You should get one.


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## sloeffle

Seasoned Oak said:


> What makes them so expensive. Is it just the fact that a poly tank cost so much more than a steel one? Home depot sells them but only carries 50 gal and larger. Way too big for me.


I have no idea why they are so much more expensive than a standard steel hot water heater. Maybe because they are the only manufacturer.

I got mine because I saw what my parents have gone through. They have been through two steel tanked hot water heaters in the last 20 years. They are on natural gas so they have to use a steel tank. Since I am on electric I chose the Marathon. Do it once and do it right.


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## woodgeek

For the Marathon fans.....how old are the oldest units?  Do we have data that they 'last forever'?  Anyone dig through their internet reviews?


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## Ashful

The two previous owners of my last house had been thru a new water heater every 3 - 6 years, for about as long as anyone could remember.  Ultra, ultra hard water was to blame.  When I bought the house, I noticed the brand-new water heater they had just installed a year earlier, and the PO told me to just plan on buying a new one every 4 years.

I installed a water softener, got the hard water in check, and never had a single water heater problem.

That's not the answer to everyone's troubles, but it is the answer to most water heater failures in the northeast.



maple1 said:


> You should get one.


I'd like to.  I'm burning 1 gallon oil per day all summer for heating DHW, adding extra heat to the house which my AC systems must overcome, and then running two dehumidifiers in the basement.  All summed, I could probably save close to $400 per month in summer, with a HPWH.  However, I have hesitated making the switch for a few reasons:

1.  Probably the biggest single reason, since really starting to learn about HPWH's a few weeks back, I've been in the middle of several other projects.  We just completed a small expansion to the house, and are making preparations for our long list of summer projects (converting a barn to a heated shop, adding a second floor to the barn, planting 23 new trees, tearing out and rebuilding four windows on the house, rebuilding two old 1770's doors, renovating two rooms on our first floor, moving our office and den).

2.  My boiler is as reliable as stone.  It also has no trouble keeping up when we have three people showering at the same time as a clothes washer and dishwasher running.

3.  Bad or mixed reviews on many HPWH units, such as the OP in this thread.

4.  The perceived requirement for restrictive plumbing, such as this, from the Nyle install manual (again, think boilermate, not electric water heater):




I do see they publish an "alternate installation," shown with an electric water heater in the manual, and I see no reason why this shouldn't work with a boilermate:




However, I need to speak with someone at the manufacturer, to understand why this is the "alternate" plumbing, and not favored over the dip tube install.  Seems to me this alternate scheme is the ONLY sensible scheme, but there must be a serious disadvantage in this scheme, for them to propose that restrictive coaxial diptube as the favored solution.


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## maple1

I think, but am not sure, that it is suggested that way to prevent cold water from 'short circuiting' thru the HPWH in periods of extended DHW use. If incoming water is cold from the well, the HPWH won't warm it enough with one pass, and the end result will be water that is not hot enough at the end use point. Using the dip gives more reserve capacity.

I think....


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## Ashful

Makes sense, but I suspect there should be a dip tube already on either the hot or cold line to the water heater in that alternate install diagram.  Moreover, the boilermates bring cold water into the bottom of the tank thru a diffuser, and take hot water off the top, so short circuiting should not be an issue under extended use with the alternate setup.  I think...


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## sloeffle

woodgeek said:


> For the Marathon fans.....how old are the oldest units?  Do we have data that they 'last forever'?  Anyone dig through their internet reviews?


A friend of mine has had one for >10 years. Maybe even a little longer, I would have to ask him to be sure. The only issue he has had is a resistance element or two go bad. We both are on city water.

I had one go bad with my tank and they shipped me a new element and the tool to change it for free.


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## woodgeek

so, 10+ years.  at least as long as a conventional tank with a heavy duty anode rod and a 12 year warranty.

Edit: and half the price:

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Residential-Electric/N-5yc1vZc1u1


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## sloeffle

woodgeek said:


> so, 10+ years.  at least as long as a conventional tank with a heavy duty anode rod and a 12 year warranty.


No to start an arguement.

But I have never seen a conventional gas or electric hot water heater last over ten years. Our last one was 8 years old and it was starting to leak. I am on city water also.

I will pay double the price for a hot water heater any day of the week that I only have to install and mess with one time. Your time is worth $$$ also.


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## Ashful

I have a conventional electric installed 1997, and showing no sign of troubles.


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## velvetfoot

I have the $238 model.    With the Nyletherm assuming most of the heating duties, it will last forever.


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## semipro

velvetfoot said:


> I have the $238 model.    With the Nyletherm assuming most of the heating duties, it will last forever.


I believe standard electrical resistance HWHs can last a long time if maintained even under adverse operating conditions as evidenced by our 25 year old standard unit that's fed hard water. 
We have to clean out the minerals, replace the lower element, and install a new anode every once in a while. I can see no reason for one of these units to develop a leak unless someone neglects to replace a worn out anode. 
This is a great related reference site BTW: waterheaterrescue.com


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## maple1

I don't think it's a very common thing to replace an anode. I don't even know where I can buy one for mine - I didn't see any at the place where I bought the tank. I suspect it is an overlooked & neglected item for 90%+ of electric water heaters sold. 'Install & forget'.

(I'd have to drill a hole in a stair tread to get mine out - ooops...)


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## semipro

maple1 said:


> I don't think it's a very common thing to replace an anode. I don't even know where I can buy one for mine - I didn't see any at the place where I bought the tank. I suspect it is an overlooked & neglected item for 90%+ of electric water heaters sold. 'Install & forget'.
> 
> (I'd have to drill a hole in a stair tread to get mine out - ooops...)


They do make "flexible" replacement anodes.  They look like a string of sausages.


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## sloeffle

Not to take this thread way off topic. 

But in this day and age. Why are we even building electric hot water heaters out of steel that will *eventually* fail due to rust ?

I am pretty sure I know the reason they still build them out of steel. Too sell more replacements to folks who set and forget it.


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## Longstreet

King Gillette was a brilliant man.


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## woodgeek

sloeffle said:


> Not to take this thread way off topic.
> 
> But in this day and age. Why are we even building electric hot water heaters out of steel that will *eventually* fail due to rust ?
> 
> I am pretty sure I know the reason they still build them out of steel. Too sell more replacements to folks who set and forget it.



The steel gets attacked by galvanic action, and the anode rod prevents the galvanic action as long as it exists.  The major difference between the 5 year and 12 year models is the mass of the anode.  If you are ready to replace it every 5 or 10 years, an easy DIY job I hear, then a conventional tank should last a very long time.  Assuming that the element swaps on the conventional and poly tanks are a similar hassle.

Didn't mean to be azz, just given the amount of love Marathons get around here, I was hoping for a long-term testimonial that might justify their cost and energy expense.


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## Highbeam

sloeffle said:


> Not to take this thread way off topic.
> 
> But in this day and age. Why are we even building electric hot water heaters out of steel that will *eventually* fail due to rust ?
> 
> I am pretty sure I know the reason they still build them out of steel. Too sell more replacements to folks who set and forget it.


 
Aren't the geospring HPWHs supplied with a stainless steel tank? I also think it is crazy to use thin mild steel lined with GLASS! to make a water tank. One little chip in that glass and the protection is gone.


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## velvetfoot

maple1 said:


> (I'd have to drill a hole in a stair tread to get mine out - ooops...)


I can relate to that.


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## woodgeek

I think the 'glass' they refer to is porcelain.  Like an old bathtub.


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## Highbeam

woodgeek said:


> For the Marathon fans.....how old are the oldest units?  Do we have data that they 'last forever'?  Anyone dig through their internet reviews?


 
Marathon has only been making these plastic (actually some sort of wound laminate) tanks for "nearly 25 years". They based their design on the water softener tanks.

I installed an iron filter recently with a similarly constructed plastic tank and I love that it won't rust out. The marathon uses all brass, replacable nipples and the dip tube is not made of steel either, I've heard of them breaking off. The marathon does not use an anode rod of course so there is no risk of that foul reaction with iron or sulfur that makes that rotten egg smell, plus no need to replace it. The elements and controls are similar to a standard water heater. The value is with the tank material and confidence that it will not leak.


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## Highbeam

woodgeek said:


> I think the 'glass' they refer to is porcelain.  Like an old bathtub.


 
I was flushing out my RV water heater and found some chips of the glass. It feels like a ceramic, bluish, like what chips out of a cast iron sink. Isn't that enamel? You've got to figure that the glass is added before the fittings are connected and that when a pipe is threaded into the tank that there is some spalling at the threaded bungs.


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## sloeffle

woodgeek said:


> Didn't mean to be azz, just given the amount of love Marathons get around here, I was hoping for a long-term testimonial that might justify their cost and energy expense.


No offense taken. I have always enjoyed your posts and point of view.

I am unfortunately part of the set and forget it crowd when it comes to DHW. So the Marathon is a perfect fit for me.


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## sinnian

Joful said:


> View attachment 133264
> 
> 
> However, I need to speak with someone at the manufacturer, to understand why this is the "alternate" plumbing, and not favored over the dip tube install.  Seems to me this alternate scheme is the ONLY sensible scheme, but there must be a serious disadvantage in this scheme, for them to propose that restrictive coaxial diptube as the favored solution.



It appears that in the "alternate" plumbing method that the water only would get one pass through the HP which only increases the temperature a minimal amount in one pass ~ HOW ON EARTH can they get hot water this way?


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## velvetfoot

That is the way I have my electric water heater hooked up to the Nyletherm because a coaxial pipe is not included.  I had a heat trap piping set up previously, so I tapped into the cold water 3/4" male fitting with a brass T and isolation ball valve.  That goes to the inlet of the Nyletherm.  The outlet of the Nyletherm goes to the heater drain, tapped in a similar manner as the cold.  

I wanted to tap into the cold water line before the heat trap.  I figured the hot circulating water would migrate less that way.  The Grundfos pump in the Nyletherm circulates the water from the lower part of the cold water dip tube, through the heat pump, and then back into the bottom of the tank, and then the cycle repeats until the lower thermostat is satisfied.  Apparently, while connecting the Nyletherm's output to the hot water outlet of the water heater would heat the water in the tank, if water is used while the pump is running, less than hot water is the result.

It works for me, so far.


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## Ashful

sinnian said:


> It appears that in the "alternate" plumbing method that the water only would get one pass through the HP which only increases the temperature a minimal amount in one pass ~ HOW ON EARTH can they get hot water this way?


No, it will continue to cycle water until the set point is reached.  That's why it's tied cold to drain, not cold to hot.


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## velvetfoot

Joful said:


> That's why it's tied cold to drain, not cold to hot.


It is tied from cold to cold.  Hot to drain.  It circulates.


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## CenterTree

maple1 said:


> I don't think it's a very common thing to replace an anode. I don't even know where I can buy one for mine - I didn't see any at the place where I bought the tank. I suspect it is an overlooked & neglected item for 90%+ of electric water heaters sold. 'Install & forget'.
> 
> (I'd have to drill a hole in a stair tread to get mine out - ooops...)






velvetfoot said:


> I can relate to that.



You can buy the rods at Home Depot.
You would want to get the "Bendable" type to replace the old one.

If you have low overhead clearance, you just pull the old one out a little at a time and cut it in sections, pull it some more, and cut, etc.

New one goes right in...all you do is re-bend it as you go. Slick!


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## sinnian

velvetfoot said:


> It is tied from cold to cold.  Hot to drain.  It circulates.



Please explain how it circulates since this is how you have yours set up.


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## velvetfoot

Let's say there's no fixtures being used.  The pump moves the water from the Tee just in front of the cold water shutoff valve to the electric water heater to the Nyletherm, where it gets heated, and then injects it back to the water heater through a Tee into the water heater drain.  It should be noted that the cold water gets sucked up through the dip tube which terminates near the bottom of the heater.


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## Highbeam

velvetfoot said:


> Let's say there's no fixtures being used.  The pump moves the water from the Tee just in front of the cold water shutoff valve to the electric water heater to the Nyletherm, where it gets heated, and then injects it back to the water heater through a Tee into the water heater drain.  It should be noted that the cold water gets sucked up through the dip tube which terminates near the bottom of the heater.


 
Makes sense to me. The nyle is working in the cold part of the water heater sucking in through the diptube and expelling heated water into the drain, both cold places. As that water in the cold part is heated it rises up into the heated column. If at any time you demand hot water then the hot water outlet at the top of the tank releases hot water and new cold water comes in through the diptube.


----------

