# Calling In The Warranty On Woodstock Steel Cat



## Todd (Feb 12, 2012)

I've had this steel cat for a year now and the last month or so it just hasn't cut the mustard like it use to. Temps are down and don't hold nearly as long as they used to. Light offs also take longer and hotter temps. 

Since I have two of the same stoves but one with a steel cat and the other ceramic, I could switch them back and forth between stoves and compare. The ceramic cat is pumping out much more heat in either stove with higher temps and also seems to burn longer. The steel cat still seems to burn clean but the heat just isn't there. I can barely get the stove top up over 500 and it doesn't stay there very long. Turning the air down to a low cat burn usually with a good cat will turn the cat beet red but lately with the steel cat it barely glows at all and the temps drop.

The warranty on these steel cats is 3 years free replacement and 3 more pro rated so I should get a free replacement. I've wondered why this steel cat hasn't lasted and talked with Woodstock about it but it's new to them and they don't have much feed back yet and are still learning. 

Sud Chemie, the manufacture of these new steel cats haven't replied to my calls or emails but I have talked with Applied Ceramics and they have told me these steel cats come out about every 10 years or so then go away because they don't last more than 3 years. Applied Ceramics also told me the steel cats may be resistant to thermo shock and not crumble over time but they don't burn as hot for as long. 

If I could get another ceramic instead of steel I would but Woodstock doesn't carry ceramic cats any longer and I don't want to dish out $200 for a new one. Looks like I'll give the steel another try.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 12, 2012)

You did the right thing Todd. Our cat has been acting really weird as of late and sometimes we have had some problems getting it to light off. Yet at other times it works great. Woodstock is replacing ours and we expect to have it within 2 days. They will do some testing there at the factory and then send it back to the manufacturer so hopefully we'll get some feedback on this. 

Yet, even with some problems getting it to light off, yesterday my wife was chilly (an uncommon thing for her) so she turned the draft to about 1.5. In short order it started getting a bit toasty in here and as we turned the draft down, the stove top was about a hair above 700 degrees. Fortunately it did not take much to get the temperature down but I wondered when I was ready to stock up for the night what might happen. There were not many coals left because we had just let the fire go out to cool the house. 

First I laid 3 pieces of kindling on the coals. They lit off pretty fast so I added 2 small splits of ash. Again, they lit off rather quickly. So then I added 3 oak splits and filled the rest with ash. Within 5 minutes I had the cat engaged and the draft set at 1. I waited about 5 minutes and then looked at the cat. It was really red all the way across. I turned the stove down to .5 then. After showering I went out to check the stove one more time. The stove top was at 620 degrees and there was some flame in the firebox. I slept well. I also got up late so the wife had already put in a couple of oddball splits but the house was really nice and warm even in the back bedroom. So this baffles me why sometimes the cat works so nicely and yet we've had a few problems.

btw, we've not had any problems staying warm because even when the cat did not light off we still got the stove over 400.


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## Todd (Feb 12, 2012)

I think mine was on and off like yours for awhile Dennis but now it's pretty consistently getting worse. There's no way I can get it up to 700. Last night I had a good fire going with a full load and it only reached 525 with the air set at #1- 1.5. After about 45 minutes the front logs were burnt down and the stove top temp was slowly dropping under 500 so I decided to add two more good sized pieces of Oak on top to see if I could get the stove cranking up over 600. Usually adding more wood to an already hot 500 degree stove would send it into nuclear mode and easily hit 700 but last night I couldn't get it over 550. Also turning it down to a low cat burn under #1 just dropped the temps and the cat stopped glowing.

On the other hand the ceramic cat has no problem pushing 700 and glows much brighter for longer.


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## timusp40 (Feb 12, 2012)

Dennis, Todd,
Not exactly the type of inconsistant cat operation that a prospective Fireview owner wants to read about. I don't quite understand why Woodstock would change from ceramic to steel, unless it was a availability issue. Am I correct in that the steel cat was fine at first, but degraded in performance faster than anticipated or do you feel the ceramic was more dependable and longer lasting?
???????
Tim


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 12, 2012)

Tim, not all SS cats have done this. However, this is good to send two of them back for testing to try to understand what is going on. Best to fix it before it does become a big problem. I'll be very interested in learning why and what is happening but would not let something like this interfere with any thinking about the Fireview. Shoot, I read about some ceramic cats crumbling quite fast too but there was a reason for that. This is one of those things like one might get when buying a new car. Some little thing pops up and the manufacturer fixes it and all future vehicle reap the benefit.


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## Todd (Feb 12, 2012)

I think Woodstock changed because of the thermo shock crumbling issues of the ceramic cats. Most people don't burn exceptionally dry wood or monitor temps as close as us hearth.com geeks so WS probably expects less warranty issues with the steel cats verses ceramic.

As far as performance goes I'm not going to simply give up on the steel cats yet. To early to tell from only a couple bad reports. Just wanted to bring this to light to other Woodstock owners so they can keep an eye on it.


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## Waulie (Feb 12, 2012)

That sucks to hear, Todd.  Now you've got me thinking about the SS cat in my Progress.  Everything seems fine so far, so I'll keep my figures crossed.



> Sud Chemie, the manufacture of these new steel cats havenâ€™t replied to my calls or emails but I have talked with Applied Ceramics and they have told me these steel cats come out about every 10 years or so then go away because they donâ€™t last more than 3 years.



I wouldn't read too much into that comment from AC, Todd.  Every 10 years or so?  Wouldn't that mean they've been tried like twice before?  It is very possible they are much inproved over the first couple go-rounds.  

Maybe there is an issue with the adaptability of the Fireview and Keystone to the steel cats, since they were never really tested or designed with them in mind?


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## Woody Stover (Feb 12, 2012)

timusp40 said:
			
		

> I don't quite understand why Woodstock would change from ceramic to steel


Maybe they were having to replace a lot of combustors under warranty due to flame impingement or thermal shock damage caused by operator error. I thought the combustor maker ate that loss but maybe Woodstock was just trying to get something more reliable in there to increase customer satisfaction...


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## Todd (Feb 12, 2012)

Waulie said:
			
		

> That sucks to hear, Todd.  Now you've got me thinking about the SS cat in my Progress.  Everything seems fine so far, so I'll keep my figures crossed.
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Yeah, I took everything they said with a grain of salt, I know they are in competition and probably a little sore that Woodstock switched over to a different manufacture. The good thing is free replacement warranty up to 3 years and I'm sure if they don't work out Woodstock will make it right.

I was also thinking with the new stove there isn't as much pressure or stress on the cat with the secondary burn system which in theory should help the cat last much longer. The original stoves are more designed where the cat takes on pretty much the full load. Maybe there will be some changes in the future to the other stoves to make them more of a hybrid? I know this new stove was originally a fireview upgrade that basically transformed into a new stove. I remember I was really bugging them about the Fireview upgrade for updates and when it was going to be available.


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## Slow1 (Feb 12, 2012)

Quite interesing experience there.  My SS has been on and off a bit lately.  I get some great performance for a while then on an off day it will seem to stall for no good reason.  I am not sure that I'm ready to throw in the towell yet though as I also had a change in my burning habits to iron out.  I have been feeding the stove some rather larger splits than previously and the weather has been - well, weird for this time of year.  The "Eternal shoulder season" has made things just hard to compare to previous years... I've been doing too many cold starts (never did on in January before this year).

Anyway - when it is working it is wonderful.  Once in a while it seems to stall which to me is either difficulty engaging (won't get the stovetop temp climbing after engaging even though temps are 'right'), or it will actually start smoking after being clean and I turn the air down.  I used to run at .5-.75 as a normal standard.  I don't do that anymore as I can expect it will end up with smoke up the stack - not a whole lot, but some near the end of the burn.  

Now, my wood may not be as good as last year.. it is only about 20 months split, but it is ash that was dead standing (sorry no moisture meter since mine broke).  I had split this wood rather large though so I can only get 4-5 splits in the stove at a time and that may be adding to my difficulty.  However, when I give the stove a bit more air - above 1 or up to 1.5 it burns clean and hot.


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## Todd (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm beginning to see a trend here. I've noticed that this problem is mostly with the lower air settings.  My steel cat is worse at lower air settings. Hotter fires in the 1-1.5 range do better but can stall out towards the end.


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## Jack22 (Feb 12, 2012)

I don't mean to sidetrack but how can I tell if I have a steel or ceramic cat?


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## Todd (Feb 12, 2012)

Jack22 said:
			
		

> I don't mean to sidetrack but how can I tell if I have a steel or ceramic cat?


 when did you buy your stove, I think the steel cats have only been in the keystone for a year? The ceramic cat has two sections with a dividing gasket in the middle. The cells are also a little larger and square. The steel cat is all one piece with irregular sized holes. You should be able to tell if you take off the scoop and look.


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## fire_man (Feb 12, 2012)

I called WS about 3 weeks ago on a different subject, and mentioned my SS cat did not seem as responsive as when it was new. At first, I could engage at 200 F and the stovetop would rapidly (less than 40 minutes) hit 500-550. This does not happen any more, it's sluggish and sometimes does not climb much past 300 until the stovetemp itself climbs. the flue smoke is slightly dark until stovetemps start really climbing. WS told me the SS cats are "hypersensitive" when brand new, and then naturally and quickly become less sensitive (WS said they were told this by the Cat maker). I'm thinking more like this cat is "desensitized".

I will certainly be monitoring this more closely, but so far I am not impressed with the SS cat.


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## neumsky (Feb 12, 2012)

I think this will confirm as to why alot of us are a little reluctant to buy cats because of the unpredictable mood swings these things go thru. Somebody above mentioned that it's like a car....not. This is not complex like a car & run by many people which usually is the error. This should have been tested by this reputable company before sending out & let you guys holding the bag. Listen to me...sorry you guys are going thru this. Honestly...I'd be confused and a little upset. There's alot of guys out there who like cats.


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 13, 2012)

Todd were the hotter cat temps taken from your probe, before you switched the setup?

Having never run a ceramic cat i cant compare. Have noticed some of these similar conditons and descriptions from above though. 

Color me suscribed to hear what you find out. Keep us updated.


Cats my be finicky in nature, still love the control of them over noncats.


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## Hardrockmaple (Feb 13, 2012)

Not to be argumentative but I'm still a believer in the SS cat. This is the second season for mine and I'm more than happy with the way my older little stove runs with this style cat. No going back for me.


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## sappy (Feb 13, 2012)

Interesting posts. Like the others said and I think Slow 1 said today was outside and noticed some light smoke coming out of stack when I still had 1 or more pieces that looked to have some life left in them still. I had the air at close to .75 or .85. Flame went out and pipe was going down some more in temp than normal. Just before was going good. Put the air at 1.75 and in time got flame back to burn down the rest of wood to coals. This has never happed before. Usually when flame goes out the cat will right off get red in this case to eventually relite flame.
Also I too am finding that leaving at 1 or a little more will keep all systems going as one would expect.
I often will put at .75 or so once established good so as not to go over 550 stovetop and longer wood but it will flame-wise usually go out in 2 hours or less.
I too don't look at stovetop as much now at restart. I look to get my double wall up to 250 to 280-300 max which you can add around a hundred to that for all you single wall folks. Then stovetop usually at 200 to 220 back part of stone by pipe. Usually will glow orange rite off n but at times will need to leave at 1.5 a bit because my great flame will sometimes go to next nothing and cat will lag. I play with air and time and it gets going properly.
Pipe with mirror shows grey with some lite ash on sides on the way up, so don't think blockage is an issue. Sounds a lot what I am hering on this thread. Add me to list, lol. Other time doing same routine will be great as Dennis states.


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## buggyspapa (Feb 13, 2012)

I've noticed the Steelcat I installed in November requires higher temps to light off than it did initially, also. But oddly, mine will go out if the draft is open too wide (on the Alpha) when I close the bypass damper. It prefers less draft. I don't know if that's because the draft comes into the stove just outboard of the cat inlet and may be getting sucked directly up by the cat and therefore cooling it or what. 

Whatever the reason, I am considering going back to the ceramic and asking for a warranty return.


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## fire_man (Feb 13, 2012)

The pitch for the SS vs Ceramic was lower light off temps. That was true when it was brand new, but what good is lower light off if it only works the first month or so? It's definitely not my wood killing this cat, my wood was top covered for 3 years. I which we could chose between SS or Ceramic, So far the ceramic worked better.


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## rdust (Feb 13, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> I think this will confirm as to why alot of us are a little reluctant to buy cats because of the unpredictable mood swings these things go thru.



I have no idea how many years my ceramic cat will last but I'd be willing to buy one out of pocket every year if necessary.  No going back for me until the "next" best thing comes along.  I'm waiting for the new WS stove to be available without the stone shell, if that was to ever happen I might take a peek.  :lol:


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## Slow1 (Feb 13, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> I think this will confirm as to why alot of us are a little reluctant to buy cats because of the unpredictable mood swings these things go thru. Somebody above mentioned that it's like a car....not. This is not complex like a car & run by many people which usually is the error. This should have been tested by this reputable company before sending out & let you guys holding the bag. Listen to me...sorry you guys are going thru this. Honestly...I'd be confused and a little upset. There's alot of guys out there who like cats.



Wow, sorry to say this but it seems that is quite a leap.  Even as one who seems to be experiencing some anomalies here I still feel this is a superior heating solution.  

Burning with the air set at close to 1 I was still able to go 10 hours (8p - 6a) last night and wake up to a comfortable house and more than enough coals to have the first splits burning before I had the last split loaded and door shut.  Being "forced" to burn with more air has shown me that having some flames in the stove during the burn doesn't really seem to shorten the time between viable re-loads.  I do hit higher peaks at the beginning - but they level off and I do still get a pretty even burn until near the end when the stone just radiates away for a while then the coals sit and wait for reload.

Now with that said, and having read the other comments in this thread, I do wonder about that "new SS cat is hypersensitive" comment.  That does seem to fit the description, but I wonder if that implies that a 'broken in' SS cat ends up requiring a higher temperature to function well.  Given the nature of the metal base, I would think it is likely to cool off faster than the ceramic (just as it heats up faster) which may explain the apparent 'stalls' near the end of a burn when the stove cools down.  I imagine with a stove that is mostly empty the gasses leaving the top of the stove must be quite a bit cooler and if the cat were to stop burning for a short period of time it wouldn't maintain it's own heat source, thus it may have a harder time re-igniting.  On the flip side a ceramic cat may hold the heat better and thus be able to re-ignite if it were momentarily fuel starved at the end of a burn.  Just speculating... no real basis for these thoughts.


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 13, 2012)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> neumsky said:
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Well said


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## jdonna (Feb 13, 2012)

I'll add my two bits for what it is worth.  I have observed my stainless cat degrading this season as well.  Seems to die off sooner into the tail end of the burn and takes longer to light off, nothing has changed on the draft or wood supply.  I will be following what you guys find out!


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## Todd (Feb 13, 2012)

I've also been told about the hypersensitivity of cats at the beginning of their life. As it was explained to me a cat will really take off for the first 100 +/- hours of burn time and then settle in for the long haul for the rest of its service life. I was also told this is true for both types of cats but the steel cat has more surface area which is better for more catalytic activity.


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## rideau (Feb 13, 2012)

A few weeks ago my cat became less effective, I noticed smoke coming from my chimney one day (for a few minutes) - white smoke, but the firt time I have ever seen smoke once cat was engaged since getting my Fireview years ago- and I started smelling smoke.  Found my screen was completely clogged.  Cleaned it and decided to remove and clean the cat, even though it looked fine in situ to visual inspection.  I was shocked to find it completely clogged with fine white powdery ash, which fell off/out when I lightly tapped the cat upside down on a piece of newspaper.  Brushed it with a fine natural bristle brush and replaced it.  That was after about four weeks of burning.  Have not had any problem since.  It has been colder out, though.   Keep a close eye on the screen.  If it gets at all obstructed I will immediately clean my cat, as I also will if I smell any smoke.  I have not yet had a subsequent problem.  , and I am wondering if the shoulder season burning may be a bit more conducive to fly ash accumulation in the cat/on the screen, and may account for the trouble everyone is having with the stainless cat this year.  I do need slightly more air in my stove when temperature outside are moderate or when it is raining, and the increased draft does make the fly ash visably fly about a bit in the firebox.  Maybe if this was a normal cold winter the stianless steel cat would perform better.  Those of you who have found fluctuation in the performance of your cat:  can you recall whether good performance has been on cold days?  From my experience, for anyone who is having an issue with any smoke smell/poor cat performance, first thing I would do would be let my fire burn down, get the stove top temp to about 120 and then take the cat out and inspect the distal side...even if you have done so recently.  I suspect that in some circumstances this cat can clog VERY quickly.  But it is very easy to clean, and in my experience works fine when clean.


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## Jack22 (Feb 13, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

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Based on your description I have a ceramic one. I just cleaned it about a week ago. I bought mine a little less than a year ago. I put about 1 2/3 cord through it so far no damage and just a tiny bit of fly ash.


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## Diabel (Feb 13, 2012)

I installed my new SS cat (Sud Chemie) In Oct 2011. It has been an easy winter but still I burn steady 24/7 (with off time a bit). Two weeks ago I started to see identical symptoms as Todd describes. I naturally put the blame on the wood, but it was getting progressively worse...
At first the cat would nicely and fast come up to temp (1100* more less) glowing nice & red, I would start closing the air, to about 50% air closed, the cat would actually get hotter & then it would suddenly stall! Cat temp would quickly drop to 400-500*, smoke out of pipe. Then last week it would not light off, I would get the stove cranking to 650-700* and the probe would sit at 500*. It is very easy to swap the cat on my 0028 (rear access). Few days ago I replaced the SS with a used ceramic cat & it works as it should. The light off takes longer that than SS cat (until the two weeks), it holds temp & does not stall if  I reduce air more than 50%. 

 So, this is a very interesting turn of events on these SS cats, it seemed we all loved them at first...but what now? Will they honor the warranty? I bought mine second hand from craigslist, 1/2 price but it was brand new in unopened box. It will be interesting what WS says...I believe they're putting SS cats in all of their stoves.


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## TX-L (Feb 13, 2012)

My mom has a BK Princess that came with a steel cat, which had problems last winter with ash clogging up the much smaller (than ceramic) pores.  I took it out last fall prior to burn season and did a thorough cleaning, but it didn't seem to work right, not nearly as well as the ceramic cat in my King.  She wanted a ceramic cat, so I ordered one at the dealership, insalled it, and it works flawlessly.  She is much happier and stated that the stove never operated this well last year.  I think ceramic is a better option, the steelcat "holes" are so much smaller they will clog much quicker.

And yes, the wood was/is dry.


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## Todd (Feb 13, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> A few weeks ago my cat became less effective, I noticed smoke coming from my chimney one day (for a few minutes) - white smoke, but the firt time I have ever seen smoke once cat was engaged since getting my Fireview years ago- and I started smelling smoke.  Found my screen was completely clogged.  Cleaned it and decided to remove and clean the cat, even though it looked fine in situ to visual inspection.  I was shocked to find it completely clogged with fine white powdery ash, which fell off/out when I lightly tapped the cat upside down on a piece of newspaper.  Brushed it with a fine natural bristle brush and replaced it.  That was after about four weeks of burning.  Have not had any problem since.  It has been colder out, though.   Keep a close eye on the screen.  If it gets at all obstructed I will immediately clean my cat, as I also will if I smell any smoke.  I have not yet had a subsequent problem.  , and I am wondering if the shoulder season burning may be a bit more conducive to fly ash accumulation in the cat/on the screen, and may account for the trouble everyone is having with the stainless cat this year.  I do need slightly more air in my stove when temperature outside are moderate or when it is raining, and the increased draft does make the fly ash visably fly about a bit in the firebox.  Maybe if this was a normal cold winter the stianless steel cat would perform better.  Those of you who have found fluctuation in the performance of your cat:  can you recall whether good performance has been on cold days?  From my experience, for anyone who is having an issue with any smoke smell/poor cat performance, first thing I would do would be let my fire burn down, get the stove top temp to about 120 and then take the cat out and inspect the distal side...even if you have done so recently.  I suspect that in some circumstances this cat can clog VERY quickly.  But it is very easy to clean, and in my experience works fine when clean.



Weather conditions didn't make a difference in my tests. I swapped steel and ceramic cats back and forth between both of my Keystones and the 2 year old ceramic outperformed the 1 year old steel cat in all situations. To be fair the ceramic cat burned less wood over the years but I expect the steel cat to last longer than it did. 

I'm kind a surprised to find so many others having issues, Woodstock told me so far all the reviews have been positive but always welcome feed back so I encourage everyone to drop them a line.


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## KevinG (Feb 13, 2012)

I bought a new SS cat beginning of this season and I have to say... "me too" to what I'm reading in this thread. I have to admit that my wood isn't perfect - it's oak that's been CSS 2 years so it really should have another year to dry. But I have an 17NCH that throws lots of heat with the same wood. Hard to compare the 2 stoves though, I know.

So, this weekend the forecast was calling for just the 2nd cold spell this year with overnight temps between 20 and 25 F. I had noticed the stove was having trouble maintaining consistent 550-600 F temps earlier in the week so I checked the chimney. It was clear. But the stove still struggled over the weekend to maintain those consistent high temps that it did back in Dec.

Todd & Dennis - please keep updating this thread. I'm very curious about the next steps. I guess I could call Woodstock but I hate to sound like I'm "piling on."


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## Buck1200 (Feb 13, 2012)

About 5 weeks into 24/7 burning of my Progress it was like a switch was thrown on the light-off performance of my cat.  I was convinced I had a terrible air leak or something- suddenly I couldn't light off even at 400 stove top if the air was shut down!  I've discovered that (at least at the moment), I have to leave the air open longer in order to get it more up in the 450 range, where it then burns nice and steady thereafter.  This is pretty annoying though, because with the secondary system on this stove it amps up the heat output quite a bit on warmer days.  

If I could get a ceramic cat for the Progress I'd order it tomorrow just to try, and then create a technical report for WS, much as this thread is I'm sure, doing.  It's just very strange to me that this was not discovered in all of the testing which MUST have preceded the wholesale switchover of the product to these steel cats.  Seems like a huge 'fail'.


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## mfglickman (Feb 13, 2012)

I ordered a new cat/assembly for the Fireview 201 I just refurbished. It came with a note about SS cats and why Woodstock has switched to them. If anyone's interested I can scan/attach the doc. Nothing earth shattering in there but they did go through their reasoning on why they thought it was a beneficial switch.


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## Todd (Feb 13, 2012)

buck1200 said:
			
		

> About 5 weeks into 24/7 burning of my Progress it was like a switch was thrown on the light-off performance of my cat.  I was convinced I had a terrible air leak or something- suddenly I couldn't light off even at 400 stove top if the air was shut down!  I've discovered that (at least at the moment), I have to leave the air open longer in order to get it more up in the 450 range, where it then burns nice and steady thereafter.  This is pretty annoying though, because with the secondary system on this stove it amps up the heat output quite a bit on warmer days.
> 
> If I could get a ceramic cat for the Progress I'd order it tomorrow just to try, and then create a technical report for WS, much as this thread is I'm sure, doing.  It's just very strange to me that this was not discovered in all of the testing which MUST have preceded the wholesale switchover of the product to these steel cats.  Seems like a huge 'fail'.



You could probably buy one from Applied Ceramics if you called them and gave the cats dimensions but it's going to be spendy.


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## fire_man (Feb 13, 2012)

I loaded the Progress completely full last night, less than 9 hours later there were a TON of great coals, BUT the stovetop was already down to 225. The rest of the stove (sides and front) were above 300F so the stove was still throwing lots of heat from the heavy coals, but NOT from the stovetop. When the combustor was new, I had stovetop temps well over 300F in the morning after a 9 hour burn.

There must have been over 6" of heavy unburnt chars and coals that the cat should have been feeding on, but its like this cat was down for the count. I have not seen the stovetop climb much above 400F for the past 3 weeks, even with bone dry 2 year old thin split Cottonwood. It's more like the stovetop temp is following the stove temperature, rather than making heat from the combustor.

When I engage at 250F  (I stopped engaging at 200 F a long time ago) the top lazily climbs to 300 F in about 40 minutes, then after the secondaries kick on I might get up to 400 Max.

Another thing I noticed is this stove used to PULVERIZE the coals into almost non-existant ashes. Lately it's not burning down into incinerated light ash, but it's more of a heavy full ashbed. 

I am going to wait for temps to warm, and then check the cat for plugging and the condition of the mating gasket. But the Iconel screen was perfectly clean. 

The good news is the stove still warmed us the last couple very cold days, no noticable drop in room temperature, but something is definitely going on with this cat.


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## fire_man (Feb 13, 2012)

Double Post >:-(


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## Vic99 (Feb 13, 2012)

My experience seems to be different.  I have often noticed the opposite, but do feel like I am operating a different kind of Fireview this year (installed ss in March of last year).  I burn 24/7.

If I turn the stove down to .6 -.7 with medium sized white oak, 2 years dry, I get a stovetop peak between 600-730!  I've had it hit over 700F three times, but twice it went back below 700 in less than 30 minutes.  Once it did not, so I had to reverse the bypass and dump the heat.  Unfortunately, I feel like I have to watch the stove until it peaks at night and am not getting the sleep I need.  This is not sustainable.

Opening the air to .8 seems to be a bout right for me.  Even packing the stove with with medium and a few smalls of white oak only seems to get me 7.0-8.5 hours until I hit 250 F on the way down.  I expect 9.0-10.5 hours.  Maybe I need bigger splits.  Can't remember if that is what I did since I got the Fireview.

Very rarely does the cat not seem to light off, but I have noticed it 3-4 times in the last year.

Maybe tomorrow during the day I will run the stove full with white oak with the draft to 1 and see what happens.  I have been reluctant to do this since I don't seem to get the more efficient semi-lazy blue flames that I get with .8 ish.


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## 4wheelcycle (Feb 13, 2012)

Wow, this is a very active thread.  Only begun on Feb. 12 by Todd and already two pages of comments.  It appears most of the posters have WS stoves, so I hope WS has already picked-up on this thread and is watching it closely.  

I am in my first season with a new Fireview and SS cat, so I am very interested in what Todd and others have experienced.  I have been casually watching how my cat ignites and operates, but now I plan to keep track of it more regularly so I will be able to quote objective data if I ever sense I'm having problems and I need to correspond with WS.

I know everyone burns their stoves differently.  My routine (with a cold start or added wood) is to burn with the air damper wide open until the flue surface temp 18" above my stove reaches 375 - 390 F by my IR gun.  Then I shut the air damper partially to keep it in that range for another ten minutes, at which point I drop the bypass damper and engage to the cat.  With this routine my cat immediately starts glowing red all over.  

I also have an 8" Condar cat probe that I bought from WS.  With the above routine the probe usually reads at least 550 F or even 600 F when I drop the bypass damper.  The probe rises to 900 F or so after twenty to thirty minutes and the stove top thermometer rises to about half that level with a 20 min. time lag.  This is a very consistent time and temperature pattern which I plan to monitor for changes.

As I noted in another thread, I do not see ANY smoke from my chimney when the cat is engaged, either at the beginning or at the end of a burn.  All I see is water vapor that is white and dissipates quickly once it leaves my chimney.  This is also a fairly objective observation which I can monitor for changes.

I hope there is either no problem with the SS cats or that there is a specific problem that WS can identify and remedy, either by working with the SS supplier or by switching back to ceramic cats.  The difficulty, of course, is that there may be a problem that affects some SS cats and not others, or that appears sooner vs. later with different stoves or burning techniques.  It is the nature of the beast, but I feel sorry for us and for WS that we will all be dealing with a problem that is difficult to quantify and is therefor subject to varying assessments of occurrence and severity by different stove owners.  Perhaps along the way WS and/or the cat manufacturers will develop objective means of testing and measuring cat performance. 

In any event, my wife and I love our new Fireview!


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## rideau (Feb 13, 2012)

4wheelcycle, my experience is a lot like yours.  I have a PH, don't keep damper open nearly as long as you do.  Have double wall excel pipe.  Woodstock thermometers mounted on stovepipe at about 12 inches and over cat on stovetop.  In my experience stovepipe temp is consistently 1/2 of stovetop temp, but reaches temp faster.  So I use thermometer on stovepipe to judge when to engage cat.  At 130 on pipe I engage cat and close damper down to about 1/8 inch.  Cat engages quickly.  Once temp is up to 380 or so, or if I start to get much flame, I close the damper completely...I have a high chimney and an excellent draft.  My usual stovetop temp is 380-430 range unless I try to burn hotter.  I get long burn times with steady stove top temps until I have little but ash left in the stove.  On cold days when the firebox contains crumpled coals (no longer any log shape), at some point I rake these into a pile toward the front of the stove and open the damper slightly--maybe 1/4.  Keep cat engaged.  This encourages continued high heat output.  By gradually opening the damper further as the burn progresses from this point I maintain a hotter fire for a shorter time and burn down to ash sooner.  On cold days when I am home I prefer to do this as it results in consistent heat, about 12 hour burns without lots of coals at the end of the burn. So far, when I have had a problem with cat engaging, it has meant either (or Both) my cat or screen needed cleaning.  MY PH puts out plenty of heat.  I don't burn as hot as many people seem to...don't aim for a 600 degree or higher stovetop temp.  Actually, I'd be just as happy to always keep temp under 600.  Possibly the SS cat deteriorates or functions differently when subjected to consistent extremely high temperatures versus the ceramic cat. ( I think the ceramic cat is fine at extreme heat as long as not subjected to flame.  )  Perhaps my cat will develop the issues others are experiencing at a later date because I burn it cooler...or it may not develop a problem.  Will be interesting to see.  I am curious:  do those who burn with a stove top temp of over 600 do so because they can or because they need that much heat?  
VIC99:  I always kept my Fireview under 550, once I had the cat engaged (ceramic cat) closed the damper down to about .25.  Have a good draft.  Never had the stove go to over 600 unless I forgot to close the damper down.  Why not try setting the damper at .25 - .5 once the cat is going well and see if that doesn't let you forget about the stove and go to bed?


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 13, 2012)

Rideau, we have reached 700 or near that many times with the Fireview. It is very common to run the stove at 600+ degrees on cold days and nights. In fact, we've got the stove top over 600 degrees many times using only 3 splits.


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## Waulie (Feb 13, 2012)

> Rideau, we have reached 700 or near that many times with the Fireview. It is very common to run the stove at 600+ degrees on cold days and nights. In fact, weâ€™ve got the stove top over 600 degrees many times using only 3 splits.



I think you'll find the Progress behaves a bit differently, Dennis.  While you can get the stove over 600, I don't by choice.  Once you get it that hot, the secondaries will be rolling like crazy and your wood will be gone (relatively) quick.  Now, if it was -10 or so out, I'd be grateful for the crazy amounts of heat the Progress kicks out at 600+.  In the teens and twenties, I like keeping the secondaries to a minimum with a stove top peaking right around 450 to 500 where it will stay for hours.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 13, 2012)

Sorry Waulie. I was not referring to the Progress at all in that post. A Fireview was mentioned so I posted about that.


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## Waulie (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh yeah.  Reading comprehesion failure on my part.


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## rideau (Feb 13, 2012)

Tony, I'm really interested in your experiences.  My stove at a 400 stovetop temp is definitely not following the stove temp, as I often have little if any visable flame in the firebox..it is cat heat in my case that is driving the stovetop temperature.  To get non-cat heat I need to open my damper a bit...as long as I close it down early enough initially.  I'm finding it easy to get cat burns now, while I had a hard time keeping the stove at cat alone when I first got it.  Honestly don't know whether this is because I have learned a bit about how to operate this stove versus the Fireview, or whether something a bit different is going on.  Have you checked the Woodstock blog recently?  They are testing this stove with different wood scenarios...wet, dry, different species...and posting as well as showing videos of results.  They say they'll run any tests we suggest....They have found that the cat burns wet wood just fine (over 30 % moisture) although they don't recommend burning wet wood.  However, the cat will take care of the moisture and one will not run risk re creosote....nor will one damage the cat.
Part of the difference in what you and I are experiencing may be related to the wood we are burning.  While we are both burning dry wood, I am burning only maple and ironwood.  The ironwood definitely is ideal with this stove...even better than the maple.  It is really dense, so burns easily for a very long time at a low cat burn.  When I don't want too much heat 6 inch unsplit logs of ironwood burn nicely and slowly.  For more heat, I split the wood.  
I haven't had any trouble engaging the cat, nor does my stove take 40 minutes to reach 380.  I'll certainly report back any change I observe.  I'm trying to figure out possible reasons we are having some similar and some very different experiences with the same set up.  I don't remember whether your set up has a big draft?  My (interior) chimney is about 34 feet, excel double wall pipe.  I'm in very cold climate (not so cold this year), on top of a cliff facing N over a BIG lake, so get lots of wind.  Maybe my draft helps get things going better.


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## rideau (Feb 13, 2012)

Dennis, I would never have had any problem getting the Fireview above 600, only would have had to give it a bit of oxygen.  Never wanted to burn it that hot on a consistent basis. a few really cold days (as in 30 below and windy) I did burn around 600, keeping a good eye on the stove.  Penny at Woodstock  advised against burning in this range on a consistent basis.  400 to 600 good, over 600 on a consistent basis apparently not so good for the cast iron in the stove...?  I was only suggesting to VC 99 that in my experience, albeit with a ceramic cat, it was very easy to control  (or certainly limit) the stovetop temp in a cat burn with the Fireview by cutting the oxygen down even more...cat stays engaged and stove burns fine.  He had a problem where he couldn't keep temp low enough to go to bed without worrying.  Simply cutting air down should result in max temps under 550.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 13, 2012)

Hey, it sounds like I need to talk to Penny again. lol


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## Todd (Feb 13, 2012)

Stove top temps don't tell the whole story. You could have a 600+ stove top right in the middle on top of the cat and off to one side or the other it could only be 400. You can also get high stove top temps with a low cat burn at .5 when the cat is gorging on smoke but the rest of the stove is much cooler. (good sign the cat is working) I think if you have a good box burn going at a higher air setting and approach that 700 you have more chance of damaging something inside because the whole stove is much hotter verses a low cat burn at 700 where it's only that hot right on top of the cat. 

My steel cat no longer reaches those higher stove top temps when I turn it down to a low cat burn and it really doesn't get up there in temps with a hotter box burn as well. For me that's a good enough sign the cat is degrading and not up to snuff.

Not too sure on the new stove but I think the cat is right under the lid and should act similar to the other Woodstocks?


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 14, 2012)

Inquiring minds todd, i gather the tests were also done with the stainless scoop and cast scoop?

Just wondering if the poor cat preformance can be any way attributed to either scoop design. Or combinations there of.


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## Todd (Feb 14, 2012)

Stump_Branch said:
			
		

> Inquiring minds todd, i gather the tests were also done with the stainless scoop and cast scoop?
> 
> Just wondering if the poor cat preformance can be any way attributed to either scoop design. Or combinations there of.


Good question. I was wondering if the new scoop could be part of the problem? Could that occasional trapped flame inside the scoop be causing damage from flame impingment? Wonder if this flame happens inside the new stove?

I only switched back to the old scoops for a couple weeks then switched back thinking the new scoop keeps more fly ash out.


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## scotsman (Feb 14, 2012)

My experiences have been more than adequately described in this thread by several people who have PHs. I've had both the FV and now the PH and I can say that I got more heat and longer burns at higher heat from the FV, BUT the FV load did not last as long comparing equal situations such as cat engaged vs cat not engaged on both stoves. I have found the PH to accommodate more fuel and burn longer the the FV only because of the volume of the fuel, but the cat on my FV was far superior to this one. Against the FV, the PH has not measured up . . . so far, and not near what I expected. However, I DO expect the issues to be ironed out by WS.

Did someone say a ceramic cat is available for the PH?

Wonder how a 1:1 comparison of SS versus ceramic would turn out? Y'know, burn identical loads with one then the other and pay attention to the outputs--only variable: the cat. Is this what WS is doing? Anybody know?

I sent Ron a message asking him for a cookbook procedure on how they do the burns on their showroom PH to get the high cat heats. My wood is not an issue, but even if it was, using same wood in both of 'em would eliminate that variable. So, I'm going to try his method and see what happens. I think I already know.

Will follow this discussion closely. I find it interesting that so many cats seem to have "failed" all at once.


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## pinewoodburner (Feb 14, 2012)

You can go back to the ceramic cat from Applied Ceramics, $79 for the Fireview and $92 for the Keystone if you did not like the SS cat. I don't know how their warranty is and if they are as easy to work with as Woodstock. It is just another option all the Woodstock owners have.


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## Todd (Feb 14, 2012)

pinewoodburner said:
			
		

> You can go back to the ceramic cat from Applied Ceramics, $79 for the Fireview and $92 for the Keystone if you did not like the SS cat. I don't know how there warranty is and if they are as easy to work with as Woodstock. It is just another option all the Woodstock owners have.



Yeah, but you have to buy 2 ea, so double that price and you also need to purchase the gasket.


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## rideau (Feb 14, 2012)

My experience has been completely different with the PH versus Fireview.  I get much more heat from the PH, burning at a lower and more consistent temperature.  One way or another I am getting greater efficeincy, as I get more heat from the same amount and species of wood.  As pointed out by others, this stove has greater surface area, larger window, greater mass.  Maybe as well as putting a lot more heat out the window it can store and radiate a lot more heat through the soapstone...perhaps conserving heat that previously went up the chimney?  My house was chilly before, is comfortable now.  Firebox is larger than Fireview, but I am not yet taking advantage of that.  My wood is all cut to 16 inch for the Fireview.  With 20 inch splits this stoive should put out a monster amount of heat, even at low burn temperatures.


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## Buck1200 (Feb 14, 2012)

Though this cat situation is leaving me feeling a bit cranky, the stove is still pretty amazing in comparison to the Hearthstone it replaced.  That was a smaller stove, but we're burning the same or less wood (warm winter aside) and only firing twice a day at the most, where we used to fire 4 times a day.  

What I'm finding now is that I cannot do the 'dark window' cat burns at all without prompting a cat stall.  Just tonight I had a dark firebox after the first hour with a peak of 450 on the top stone and a nice red patch on the wood in the firebox indicating a good draft.  But slowly I started to realize that the red patch was getting dimmer.  And then just now I see that the stove top has dropped to 380.  Went outside and sure enough, that trail out of the chimney is too long and lazy to be steam.  Cat stall.  So, I've opened the air and am letting the firebox get hot again in hopes that it will stay so once I shut it down a second time.  I haven't decided if this is getting worse by the day or this is just the new normal.


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## WarmInIowa (Feb 14, 2012)

You all have had the PH longer than me, should be interesting to see what happens.  I was told my WS to expect the steel cat to be overy active for the first couple days and then it would settle into a "normal", which is has now.  At first, with the air lever closed all the way, I had a lot of flame.  Right now, I've been running a nice CAT fire, its' been completely black, you wouldn't know there was a fire inside except the stove is making noises and the top temp is 480, so it's cranking out good heat.

Let's keep posting on this so we can help WS figure this out or ask them to do more testing if needed.


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## Battenkiller (Feb 14, 2012)

mfglickman said:
			
		

> I ordered a new cat/assembly for the Fireview 201 I just refurbished. It came with a note about SS cats and why Woodstock has switched to them. If anyone's interested I can scan/attach the doc. Nothing earth shattering in there but they did go through their reasoning on why they thought it was a beneficial switch.



I'm interested.  

There's a 201 for sale near me.  I called Woodstock to see what year it was made (SN 5956 is apparently too old to be in their database), and they told me it would be $125 for a SS cat.  Are ceramic cats still available for these older FVs?  I'm going to assume the cat is past it's prime since it is an older stove.  Stove is going for $600.  Adding $200 to get two new ceramic cats will bring it to $800.  Not bad for a FV, but kinda high for a stove that is at least 15 years old according to WS (their computer database goes back to 1996).

Woodstock seems to have had a run of minor complaints posted on this board this season.  It's a pity, because they are a small company that really does care about their products and their customers.  I'm sure they'll figure this out and won't dodge the problem.  

On another note, I don't agree with some posts I've been reading that they were hasty in releasing their new stove.  If anything, it was us burners who kept pushing them.  Reminds me of all the wonder drugs currently in trial.  Folks have a problem understanding why the miracle "cure" for their cancer that they read about in a Google news search won't be available to them until after they are dead.  Then it gets rushed to market for "humanitarian" reasons, and the same people want to sue BP after the drug cures their disease but causes kidney failure after the fact.  Like drug development, R&D is a slow process.  Let's be patient next time and let them get it right before they start shipping.


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## leeave96 (Feb 14, 2012)

Haven't posted in a while - so just tuning-in.

FWIW, we've been burning 24/7 since mid September with the SS cat in my Keystone and it's great.  No fear of thermal shock, no cracks or crumbling, no smoke out the chimney.

I would buy another one in a heartbeat.

Bill


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## chipsoflyin (Feb 14, 2012)

they have got this stove right, this has got to be the easiest stove to operate ive ever owned, load it up, let it rip, neck it down, forget it. a cat probe makes this process to easy, able to tell when cat stalls. condor makes a digital probe ive been using for a month and a half, wire holds up good no sign of burnt insulation.


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## jackofalltrades (Feb 14, 2012)

I am glad to see this thread. I have a new SS cat in my Fireview. I seldom see it glowing and if it does it never glows more than half way across the face of it. I have to work really hard to get temps over 500 and I have two year dried white oak. I do burn some bigger splits, but I am thinking the cat may be the biggest part of my problem. It is just now a year old, so I am going to watch it the rest of this season and see what it does and go from there.


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## pinewoodburner (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks Todd for starting this post.  It is interesting to some of the issues with the SS cat.  It seems like the SS cat has some advantages, the question is will they last as long as the ceramic cat, it the ceramic cat is not abused.


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## geoxman (Feb 14, 2012)

I stumbled across this thread yesterday and it is interesting! My stove FA-288CL had a perfect ceramic cat in it when I bought it, but I bought a SS from woodstock for main use and I kept the ceramic for a backup. I have noticed it gets clogged easily and when it does I rinse it with water and blow it dry. After cleaning the catalyst it ignites easily and cruises between 1500 and 1000 with ease. Cleaning every week was getting to be a PITA and from reading this thread I decided to put the ceramic in yesterday afternoon.
The ceramic does not ignite at the lower temps but I am getting higher stove front temps, 500-600, for longer durations than with the SS cat? I can only measure the front and cat temp, 1000-1400, on my stove. 
I am not a newb to cats, 20 plus years with the Defiant/Encore, but this is odd. The wood is the same as well as the conditions and this has me stumped??
The burn time is significantly longer and hotter with the ceramic  and I do not see how a catalyst could have that much of an impact on my stove. I have both and I will experiment over the next week or so and see how it goes. The front temperature difference is quite puzzling, but I will play with it. good luck

Edit..

For those with the SS. Have you had better results after rinsing or do you just vacuum? I have tried both but after rinsing it reacts much quicker.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 14, 2012)

pinewoodburner said:
			
		

> Thanks Todd for starting this post.  It is interesting to some of the issues with the SS cat.  It seems like the SS cat has some advantages, the question is will they last as long as the ceramic cat, it the ceramic cat is not abused.




I never had much luck with the ceramic cats, had to use the warranty on every one of them.  I would get about 2 or 2.5 seasons before they would crack and start to fall apart.  Maybe the first one I can blame on wood, but now I'm several years ahead, wood is at least 2-3 years seasoned and under a wood shed.  I'm now switched over to SS cats and so far no problems. I have on occasion experienced a stalled SS cat, but opening the bypass, getting the flames going good and re-engaging has solved it.  The other occasion was with a very light wood load (1 or 2 splits) and one had fallen way to the back of the stove so not enough smoke or flame was being produced to keep the cat fired off.   Now I'm saying all this with fingers crossed as none of my SS cats have a full seasons use on them yet...


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## HotCoals (Feb 14, 2012)

Hardwoods won't gas off as fast as soft woods.
Try some pine or similar if your cat is in question.
I know I have starved my cat with a load of ash even if I didn't char it enough.
That said I have also seen it come to life a hour or two latter doing nothing.
It might also have to do with not steaming off enough of the water when reloading?


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## fire_man (Feb 14, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> Tony, I'm really interested in your experiences. * My stove at a 400 stovetop temp is definitely not following the stove temp, as I often have little if any visable flame in the firebox..it is cat heat in my case that is driving the stovetop temperature. * To get non-cat heat I need to open my damper a bit...as long as I close it down early enough initially.  I'm finding it easy to get cat burns now, while I had a hard time keeping the stove at cat alone when I first got it.  Honestly don't know whether this is because I have learned a bit about how to operate this stove versus the Fireview, or whether something a bit different is going on.  Have you checked the Woodstock blog recently?  They are testing this stove with different wood scenarios...wet, dry, different species...and posting as well as showing videos of results.  They say they'll run any tests we suggest....They have found that the cat burns wet wood just fine (over 30 % moisture) although they don't recommend burning wet wood.  However, the cat will take care of the moisture and one will not run risk re creosote....nor will one damage the cat.
> Part of the difference in what you and I are experiencing may be related to the wood we are burning.  While we are both burning dry wood, I am burning only maple and ironwood.  The ironwood definitely is ideal with this stove...even better than the maple.  It is really dense, so burns easily for a very long time at a low cat burn.  When I don't want too much heat 6 inch unsplit logs of ironwood burn nicely and slowly.  For more heat, I split the wood.
> I haven't had any trouble engaging the cat, nor does my stove take 40 minutes to reach 380.  I'll certainly report back any change I observe.  I'm trying to figure out possible reasons we are having some similar and some very different experiences with the same set up.  I don't remember whether your set up has a big draft?  My (interior) chimney is about 34 feet, excel double wall pipe.  I'm in very cold climate (not so cold this year), on top of a cliff facing N over a BIG lake, so get lots of wind.  Maybe my draft helps get things going better.



Rideau:  The reason I think my stovetop temp is now *following* the overall stove temperature is because when I first got this stove I would engage the combustor and the stovetop temp would quickly (in less than 30 minutes) climb to some high temperature (like 500F). It would hang there for a while ( 30 more minutes) and then secondaries would instantly erupt, at which time the rest of the stove would quickly start heating up. 

But in the past 3 weeks or so, I engage at the same 250 stovetop, the stovetop temp CRAWLS up to 300F (takes 40+ minutes, very few or no secondaries), and gradually the secondaries become stronger (no longer "erupting") and the rest of the stove gradually rises up to 500F (measured by IR gun).The stovetop temp SLOWLY lags behind, if I am lucky it eventually gets to 400F peak , the rest of the stove is 520+. This is using bone dry (3 year split/covered) wood. I am burning Beech,Red Oak, Cherry, Cottonwood and Silver Maple. 

At the end of burn, stovetop temps are super  low (200F) when there is still a ton of unburned wood in the stove. When it warms up I will check the cat for plugging, but the last time I went through this much wood I checked the cat and it was perfectly clean. The stove is just not behaving the way it did a month ago.

I have an exterior chimney, uninsulated 20 foot 6" SS liner. I don't think it's a draft problem, because something has changed in the past 3-4 weeks  other than the draft. I am burning in similar temp conditions (both warm and cold) as I did a month ago, but the cat is just not behaving anymmore. Yes the Iconel screen is clean.

The stove still heats well, but I just know something is not right. I am sure between me and WS we will figure it out.


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## HotCoals (Feb 14, 2012)

One queston.
Do you guys think if the cat is not has hot as it should be do you think that slows the draw on the fire?
I have been having more unburned wood chunks left over in a normal cycle then I used to also..way more coal.
But yet my cat seems pretty much up to par.
I have noticed my cat is lose in the opening..came right out easy.
I need to get a new gasket...that could be slowing the draft ..maybe?


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## fire_man (Feb 14, 2012)

HotCoals said:
			
		

> One queston.
> Do you guys think if the cat is not has hot as it should be do you think that slows the draw on the fire?
> I have been having more unburned wood chunks left over in a normal cycle then I used to also..way more coal.
> But yet my cat seems pretty much up to par.
> ...



Funny you mentioned those two things: gasket and unburned wood. 

I plan to check the Progress gasket as soon as we get a warm day, it's possible something is going on there.
I also noticed when I installed the cat the last time, it seemed to fit "loosely" in the opening. I plan to get a good look at that when I open things up.

Ever since the cat does not throw as much heat, I get more of a thick ash bed. This stove used to INCINERATE the ashes. 
The only other time I had a coaling problem (with the Fireview) was when my wood was drying for only 1 year.


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## HotCoals (Feb 14, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> HotCoals said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We might be on to something..would explain the little bit of smoke I see from the chimney,when I should not be.
If some of the gas is going around the cat instead of through it..that food be less food for the cat.


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## TX-L (Feb 14, 2012)

> One queston.
> Do you guys think if the cat is not has hot as it should be do you think that slows the draw on the fire?
> I have been having more unburned wood chunks left over in a normal cycle then I used to also..way more coal.
> But yet my cat seems pretty much up to par.
> ...



I have thought of this before, just didn't post on it.  A new gasket wrap expands and seals when heated after initial install, ensuring a complete flue gas flow through the cat.  I don't know if a loose cat would slow the overall draft as measured in the flue, but the path in the stove _might_ change.  The flue gasses/smoke will certainly take the path of least resistance, so IF there is a big enough gap with a damaged or missing gasket around the cat assembly, I could see a potential problem...  Anyone else have any thoughts on this?


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## HotCoals (Feb 14, 2012)

When I pull my pipe this summer I'm also going to change my by-pass gasket also...just to be sure nothing is getting past it.


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## Todd (Feb 14, 2012)

TX-L said:
			
		

> > One queston.
> > Do you guys think if the cat is not has hot as it should be do you think that slows the draw on the fire?
> > I have been having more unburned wood chunks left over in a normal cycle then I used to also..way more coal.
> > But yet my cat seems pretty much up to par.
> ...



My steel cat was a little loose in the frame last time I pulled it and I also noticed some gaps in two of the four corners where I could see right through to the other side I plugged them with rock wool insulation but it's still not a tight fit like the ceramic cat.

I recall someone else having an issue with the steel cat gasket and received more from Woodstock to get a tighter fit in the frame.


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## scotsman (Feb 14, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> TX-L said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh-oh, there's supposed to BE a gasket around the cat? I've had mine out and didn't notice one. Where's it supposed to be? Mine fits pretty loose, too.


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## TX-L (Feb 14, 2012)

I can't say for sure about the Progress, but the Blaze King stoves definitely have a gasket wrap around the cat sidewalls.  I would assume that Woodstock is similar, as the stove companies outsource their combustors; maybe from the same supplier(s)?  Regardless, I'm sure all cat stoves require all the smoke to travel through the cat element, hence the need to seal around it.  Perhaps the tolerances for the opening on the Woodstocks are much closer than the BK?  But if it was, it wouldn't slide around so easily, as you described. Your Progress owner's manual should identify the steps for cat replacement after cleaning -- does it mention a new wrap?  My guess (ONLY A GUESS) is that it needs one.  If so, this might make a night and day difference.

This is a very informative thread for us cat stove users.  Keep the info coming.


* EDIT:  Just looked up the manuals on Woodstock's website.  They use gaskets when replacing the combustors for the Fireveiw and Keystone models.  There is no manual for the Progress, but we can probably assume it's the same. *


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 14, 2012)

Todd i think it was bill who had replaced the gasket. Thread was smokey fireview or something like that.


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## Buck1200 (Feb 14, 2012)

The Progress has a face gasket, but no wrap-around gasket, which I believe is likely due to the thermal expansion difference between the stainless steel cat and the cast iron pocket it sits in.  There is a vast difference in thermal expansion rates going from ceramic (likely alumina) to stainless steel, which must be accounted for in the pocket and seal design in order to prevent mechanical over-constraint (read: broken cat) during temperature cycling.  I have not seen the new design cat design of the FV or Keystone, nor do I have any experience with ceramic cats, so someone might check that logic with reality.


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## Todd (Feb 14, 2012)

Stump_Branch said:
			
		

> Todd i think it was bill who had replaced the gasket. Thread was smokey fireview or something like that.



Found it. https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/87678/

Maybe this is the reason we are seeing problems? I still haven't heard back from Woodstock about this, has anyone had a talk with them lately on this steel cat issue?


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## fire_man (Feb 14, 2012)

I wish/hope it would be as simple as a gasket/fitting problem. It would be worse (and probably more likely) that these darn SS cats just don't work as well as Ceramic. It seems some folks are having better luck, but it's possible lots of people don't even know their cats are not working properly. I know how it's supposed to burn, and it ain't right.


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## HotCoals (Feb 14, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> I wish/hope it would be as simple as a gasket/fitting problem. It would be worse (and probably more likely) that these darn SS cats just don't work as well as Ceramic. It seems some folks are having better luck, but it's possible lots of people don't even know their cats are not working properly. I know how it's supposed to burn, and it ain't right.


You very well could be right.
But bad gaskets won't help.


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## ddddddden (Feb 14, 2012)

Count me in.<sigh>  Like everyone here, I suffer from wood guilt, so I blamed my wood, of course.  I've been burning hotter to compensate.  Hence my observation about how well the FV works as a secondary burner. Thought it was odd that my wood was dry enough to get such nice secondary flames, but not dry enough to tickle the cat's fancy all of the time. Definitely have a mechanical issue, probably the gasket., it sounds like a box of Tic-Tacs when I take it out for cleaning. It did do better after mid-season cleaning of ~ 1.5qts of creosote from the flue. Those who are into doing frequent cat cleanings to maintain performance may want to clean the flue more often too. I think it may work in a downward spiral: Cat function becomes spotty due to gasket or other defect. . .creosote deposits in the flue. . .draft is impaired. . .cat function worsens. . .more creosote deposits in the flue. . .        Todd, were you running the SS cat on your SupaFlue that got all gunked up?


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## ddddddden (Feb 14, 2012)

It has been suggested before that the SS cats suck, and as proof, it was said that BK went back to ceramic after trying SS.  *BKVP* addressed this when he was here fielding questions. He said that BK continues to use both types of cat.  If SS was that bad, it doesn't seem likely that they would do that. . .unless there are hidden supply issues with ceramic cats, which might explain why they are using two types. . .maybe the Aliens won't let them talk.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 14, 2012)

Stump_Branch said:
			
		

> Todd i think it was bill who had replaced the gasket. Thread was smokey fireview or something like that.



That was me. Todd found the thread. the gasket helped a lot and so has being sure that the screen and cat are clear of ash. My stove has been behaving like others have described here. It seems to take longer to get a nice cat burn and can be a little smokey at low burns. I have been running with the air at or even above 1 most of this winter. I switched to the SS in January last year. It was a HUGE improvement over the ceramic one that pretty much fell apart and stopped working in the middle of its second season. Temps were supper high with it. This season I have not had the same results. Is it the SS cat? The SS scoop? Maybe. I think that a big part of what we are talking about here are the consistent unusually warm temps this winter. The few times I have had actual winter like temps this year, teens and single digits, the stove has performed great. I am also burning about 98% Black Locust which is a very dense, very hard wood. It burns hot and long but is not quick to light up. In my case there are too many factors working against me to be sure that the SS cat and/or scoop are really a problem. My 7" flue doesn't help either, especially in the warmer temps. I think that I'm going to pay a little better attention to keeping the cat and screen clean and wait until we get some real winter weather before I make any judgement on the SS cat and screen.


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## Todd (Feb 14, 2012)

Recieved an email from Tom at Woodstock. I'll be sending mine out to them for testing soon.

Hi Todd, Tony, Dennis - 

I was just pointed to the recent thread on hearth.com about ss catalysts.  I am not a registered hearth.com user, but here are a few comments.

If any of you have combustors that you think are not performing, we would love to get them back.
Sud Chemie is testing a couple now, and the NH Materials lab is looking at samples from two combustors.  We would like to get a few more back, and thermocouple them up and test them in our lab.  One good thing about Sud Chemie is that they have impressive lab facilities, and they take R&D and QC very seriously.  They have been responsive to our technical questions, and provided accurate technical information.  I was surprised that they did not respond to questions.  I hope that the reason was that the message went to company voice-mail and never was delivered to a CSR.

We havenâ€™t experienced a â€œstallingâ€ situation in our lab like some people described on the hearth thread.  We need to recreate, here in West Lebanon, the situation that you are experiencing before we can really offer constructive and/or definitive advice, so we would really appreciate getting some underperforming parts back here.  Contact me directly if you have an underperforming catalyst that you want to contribute to science, and Iâ€™ll send you a free replacement (you can send yours back in the same box).   Weâ€™ll need some information on when you experienced the problem (temperature/wood/draft) so that we can try to recreate it.  Weâ€™ll be happy to share any test results we get with returned catalysts.  If we can recreate the situation that you describe, weâ€™ll be way ahead of the game. 

There are some good comments on the hearth thread, and some misconceptions too.  â€¢ The catalyst doesnâ€™t need to glow to be working.  â€¢ The Progress combustor is deliberately NOT  fit tightly (side to side), but is installed at an angle so that its upstream end seats against gasket.  Thatâ€™s the seal that counts.  We wanted to make the catalyst easy to get out in this model â€“ no bolts, castings, or interam gasket.  Itâ€™s boxed in a stainless steel frame.  â€¢ On the Keystone and Fireview, you should get better results with the stainless steel combustor and the new screen.  The flow is much more even across the face of the catalyst with the screen than it was with the expanded metal. 

I called Blaze King this afternoon, and they said they donâ€™t have any experience with â€œstalled combustorsâ€ - just fly ash and wet wood.  So Iâ€™m anxious to get some parts back!

Thanks,

Tom Morrissey
Woodstock Soapstone Company


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## HotCoals (Feb 14, 2012)

man that was a great e-mail!


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## Treacherous (Feb 14, 2012)

Now that is customer support I'd like to see more of everywhere

That's awesome


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## timusp40 (Feb 14, 2012)

WOW! 80 posts to a thread that started less than a week ago. Feelings about the new PH and SS cats are all over the map. Good, lousy, happy, concerned, disapointed, on and on. I am getting ready to purchase a new stove and had all but sent a down payment to Woodstock. Until this SS cat thing reared its ugly head that is. Think I'll just keep reading and listening to all the comments that are coming in rapid fire, before a final decision. Just too many varied opinions out there for me at this time. Not knocking Woodstock. Their reputation and customer service speak for itself, but I don't think we have a bottom line yet! Do you have to babysit a SS cat? I'm too old to have to fiddle with something and still worry about it before I go to bed. If you read any one of the dozens of Woodstock Stove reviews on the Hearth, you don't find any complaints about the ceramics cats. What's happening here Woodstock? 
Tim


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## mfglickman (Feb 14, 2012)

timusp40 said:
			
		

> WOW! 80 posts to a thread that started less than a week ago. Feelings about the new PH and SS cats are all over the map. Good, lousy, happy, concerned, disapointed, on and on. I am getting ready to purchase a new stove and had all but sent a down payment to Woodstock. Until this SS cat thing reared its ugly head that is. Think I'll just keep reading and listening to all the comments that are coming in rapid fire, before a final decision. Just too many varied opinions out there for me at this time. Not knocking Woodstock. Their reputation and customer service speak for itself, but I don't think we have a bottom line yet! Do you have to babysit a SS cat? I'm too old to have to fiddle with something and still worry about it before I go to bed. If you read any one of the dozens of Woodstock Stove reviews on the Hearth, you don't find any complaints about the ceramics cats. What's happening here Woodstock?
> Tim



Tim, see the email above from Woodstock. 

I <3 Woodstock ... and no I'm not affiliated. I've called 3 times, every time the person who answered the phone could answer my question. Contrast with other products out there where it's a struggle to find a phone number, let alone a real person to help.


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## raybonz (Feb 14, 2012)

The cats have nothing to do with Woodstock or any other stove company. They are bought from a cat company and S/S cats are actually more expensive than the ceramic cats. The reason they have gone to S/S cats is because ceramic cats are sensitive to thermal shock and can crack or crumble which normally isn't a problem unless people are burning wet wood. Sud Chemie manufactures cats for companies such as Condar and has been making cats since the beginning so they are quite experienced and have set the standard for this product. 

Ray


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## timusp40 (Feb 14, 2012)

mfglickman said:
			
		

> timusp40 said:
> 
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mfglickman,
I read it and I totally agree about their CS. Hope they figure it out soon.


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## northwinds (Feb 14, 2012)

Woodstock is really an impressive company.  It still boggles my mind that they called Blaze King for more input.  
I like my Isle Royale, but you cannot beat the customer service of a company trying to make things right.


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## raybonz (Feb 14, 2012)

northwinds said:
			
		

> Woodstock is really an impressive company.  It still boggles my mind that they called Blaze King for more input.
> I like my Isle Royale, but you cannot beat the customer service of a company trying to make things right.



I don't understand the Blaze King input thing..

Ray


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## HollowHill (Feb 15, 2012)

Den said:
			
		

> Count me in.<sigh>  Like everyone here, I suffer from wood guilt, so I blamed my wood, of course.  I've been burning hotter to compensate.  Hence my observation about how well the FV works as a secondary burner. Thought it was odd that my wood was dry enough to get such nice secondary flames, but not dry enough to tickle the cat's fancy all of the time. Definitely have a mechanical issue, probably the gasket., it sounds like a box of Tic-Tacs when I take it out for cleaning. It did do better after mid-season cleaning of ~ 1.5qts of creosote from the flue. Those who are into doing frequent cat cleanings to maintain performance may want to clean the flue more often too. I think it may work in a downward spiral: Cat function becomes spotty due to gasket or other defect. . .creosote deposits in the flue. . .draft is impaired. . .cat function worsens. . .more creosote deposits in the flue. . .        Todd, were you running the SS cat on your SupaFlue that got all gunked up?



UPDATE:  it was not a chimney fire according to sweeps.  Sweep thinks it might have been "chugging" caused by too much oxygen and gasses.

I just experienced what I believe was a chimney fire this morning.  Still pretty rattled by it.  I have a Progress, which was installed 12/8.  I had the chimney swept on 1/17.  The chimney sweep said there was very little, light ash and that based on this, I should be good until summer for my next cleaning.  So, I've been burning 24/7 since then, except for about a week when it was down for various reasons (door gasket, then appliance adapter install).  So, I've only been burning about 3 weeks.  During that time, I was experiencing what has been talked about on this thread - engaging the cat at anywhere from 250 - 350 and immediately lowering the draft to 1/8", only to see the temps fall after engaging and never coming back up unless I disengaged and re-engaged.  Finally, I have revised my burning scheme so that I engage at higher temps (300 - 400) and leave the air at 50% for several minutes, and then 25% for several minutes.  If the temp is good enough, I will further reduce to 1/8", if not, leave it at 25%.  This new strategy has been working well as far as heating the house goes.  This morning, on a reload, I didn't have the load as involved as I'd like (the bottom was barely going, the middle layer was not even charred and the top layer was burning at a pretty good clip).  The secondaries were pretty intense, so I decided to engage the cat regardless of the other layers lagging behind.  When I did so, I suddenly got a low bass LOUD rumble like an unbalanced washing machine on meth.  I quickly disengaged the cat but that didn't stop it, so shut the air all the way down to 0 and that stopped the noise instantly.

Both my chimney sweep and WS are puzzled by how I could have built up enough creosote in 3 weeks to cause a chimney fire, but I wonder if what Den is describing might be the reason.  My wood is 2 years css and is a mix of maple, ash, birch, locust, elm.

I just want to give people a heads up that they might want to check their chimneys more frequently until more is known about this issue...


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 15, 2012)

flatbed my mistake, should have known and looked it up first. 

nice email. i personally like mine, and i say that as someone who has yet to call them (i still need to order some parts) issue i run into is its a used stove used cat, couldnt ask them to foot a bill that could have been previous users fault. no id just assume buy one, feel better about the warranty then. 


then again dont really think i have a problem just noticed some of the above issues some time. figured it was me first year with a cat is all. very well could be that too.

im warm though, good luck


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Stump_Branch said:
> 
> 
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I don't think it's the warmer winter weather. My ceramic cat has done just fine in this weather and I always thought one of the advantages of cat stoves is the low slow clean cat burns in this type of weather.


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

HollowHill said:
			
		

> Den said:
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Sounds like it could of been a chimney fire to me. I had a similar situation where I found a lot of creosote in my lower chimney and stove pipes. I swept the new supaflu chimney about 6 weeks prior and hardly anything. Maybe like you I was relying on lower light off temps and the chimney wasn't getting warm enough to maintain draft and help the cat light off and do its thing properly?

My issues could be a combination of different things but after hearing everyone else's issues I'm leaning more towards a steel cat problem.


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## scotsman (Feb 15, 2012)

I read Tom's message (and all the rest, as well). I just put my cat back in from checking it. It was not plugged--in fact, pretty clean. Like Tom said, the cat has a gasket on the upstream side that it rests against on the down slope. Personally I'd like it better if it had some sort of retainer to snug it down like my FV had, but they didn't ask me during the design phase!  :lol:  So, it appears that my set up is consistent with Tom's description and the low temp issues describe my situation accurately. 'Spose I'll just hang out and monitor developments.


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## begreen (Feb 15, 2012)

HollowHill said:
			
		

> Den said:
> 
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I'm not sure what happened here, but that doesn't sound quite like a chimney fire. Catalytic indigestion maybe?


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## BrotherBart (Feb 15, 2012)

I ain't gonna say it. I promise, I ain't gonna say it.  :zip:


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## rdust (Feb 15, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I ain't gonna say it. I promise, I ain't gonna say it.  :zip:



:lol:


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## Buck1200 (Feb 15, 2012)

I checked the cat tonight and found clear evidence that it was not seated squarely on the gasket- it rocked within the pocket, and the top half of the gasket is brown and sooty.  I flipped the cat over (it fit tighter the other way) and jammed a little fiberglass rope under it to keep it snug.  Now it's burning much better.  I have a nice dark firebox, a top stone approaching 500, and a flue temp solidly at 400, both right where they should be prior to turning in for the night.  

Making 'progress'.


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## HotCoals (Feb 15, 2012)

Man..it looks like I might have been right for once..lol..at least in part.
S.S. cats could still be suspect though..I have no idea on those.
Still have to get a gasket for my cat...but it's doing pretty good.
Had to tighten my door some..even though it passed the dollar test.
I have a way to make it back puff when I want it too..seen the smoke come out the top of door even though the gasket looks brand new yet and it seemed like a tight seal.


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## fire_man (Feb 15, 2012)

buck1200 said:
			
		

> I checked the cat tonight and found clear evidence that it was not seated squarely on the gasket- it rocked within the pocket, and the top half of the gasket is brown and sooty.  I flipped the cat over (it fit tighter the other way) and jammed a little fiberglass rope under it to keep it snug.  Now it's burning much better.  I have a nice dark firebox, a top stone approaching 500, and a flue temp solidly at 400, both right where they should be prior to turning in for the night.
> 
> Making 'progress'.



Now this is interesting. I remember the first time I removed and replaced the cat, it just did not seem like the mating surfaces (cat to stove) fit together snugly. I even mentioned this to WS when I called earlier this week about my stalling cat. It just does not feel like the cat "locks" into the mating flange, it just relies on gravity and it's at an angle so has a tendency to tilt away. It makes sense that your top gasket surface was brown. Fiberglass rope under the cat seems like an EXCELLENT idea, thanks for the post!!

Second point: I tried engaging at a MUCH higher than my usual normal light off temperature, per suggestion by sir Ciccio. Resuts: Stove top temp TOOK OFF like a rocket! Normally I was engaging at 250F  thinking this was more than good, since the claim is that SS cats can be engaged at 200F. 250F *used* to work just fine. But last night I engaged at 350F and the stovetop temp was definitely headed toward 500F before I went to bed. Hopefully my wife followed my request to get the final peak temp before she crashed. But even better news, in the morning the stovetop was above 300F, instead of down near 200F. So it's starting to look to me like the light off temp has increased. It's too early to say for sure, this was just one test and the new cat is arriving soon. I might want to play with this for a couple more days before sending this cat to WS.


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

chipsoflyin said:
			
		

> they have got this stove right, this has got to be the easiest stove to operate ive ever owned, load it up, let it rip, neck it down, forget it. a cat probe makes this process to easy, able to tell when cat stalls. condor makes a digital probe ive been using for a month and a half, wire holds up good no sign of burnt insulation.



Have you noticed the differences between your internal cat probe and surface temps? Maybe the external 200-250 temps doesn't really mean the internal cat temps are at that 400-500 light off range?


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 15, 2012)

All the more reasons i feel all cat stoves should come with probes. Something really, its just a good thing to have. Cant really do much without knowing the light off temps


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## Flatbedford (Feb 15, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> Second point: I tried engaging at a MUCH higher than my usual normal light off temperature, per suggestion by sir Ciccio. Resuts: Stove top temp TOOK OFF like a rocket! Normally I was engaging at 250F  thinking this was more than good, since the claim is that SS cats can be engaged at 200F. 250F *used* to work just fine. But last night I engaged at 350F and the stovetop temp was definitely headed toward 500F before I went to bed. Hopefully my wife followed my request to get the final peak temp before she crashed. But even better news, in the morning the stovetop was above 300F, instead of down near 200F. So it's starting to look to me like the light off temp has increased. It's too early to say for sure, this was just one test and the new cat is arriving soon. I might want to play with this for a couple more days before sending this cat to WS.



I have been doing about the same thing with my Fireview. I let it get up to around 350 before I engage the cat. I'll then leave the the air at about 1.5 for a few minutes to really heat up the cat and then set it at just under 1 and leave it there for the rest of the burn. With a full load of Black Locust, the stove top will be at around 300 6 or 7 hours later. If it is colder outside, I can engage at a slightly lower temp and run at a lower temp to.


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## KevinG (Feb 15, 2012)

Back in November I was thinking about drilling a hole in my soapstone top for a cat probe. Maybe this is the motivation I need to do it. Sure would be nice to know the cat temp when engaging.


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## HotCoals (Feb 15, 2012)

KevinG said:
			
		

> Back in November I was thinking about drilling a hole in my soapstone top for a cat probe. Maybe this is the motivation I need to do it. Sure would be nice to know the cat temp when engaging.


Can you see the cat looking through the glass?


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## Buck1200 (Feb 15, 2012)

The cat is completely out of sight on the Progress.  I've ordered a couple of k type thermocouples with the intent of measuring pre and post cat temperatures in the same manner as it's done by WS.  They are sending me a new cat, so I'll be able to test before and after replacement on my stove, which should be interesting, and I'll post the results, of course.


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## KevinG (Feb 15, 2012)

I could see the Fireview's cat through the old expanded metal screen. But it's hard to see it through the new inconel screen.

In other news, I noticed that my new inconel screen was completely clogged on the sides and maybe 50% clogged on the front. That would certainly explain the loss of draft. I had cleaned it in-place 5-6 weeks ago but it definitely needed it again. So I took a wire brush and cleaned it off maybe 80%. The draft seems better now but the stove top temp topped out around 400-450 F.

I don't have any backup heat in the house so it's hard to let the stove get cool enough to remove the screen for a thorough cleaning this often.


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## fire_man (Feb 15, 2012)

buck1200 said:
			
		

> The cat is completely out of sight on the Progress.  I've ordered a couple of k type thermocouples with the intent of measuring pre and post cat temperatures in the same manner as it's done by WS.  They are sending me a new cat, so I'll be able to test before and after replacement on my stove, which should be interesting, and I'll post the results, of course.



Buck1200: Do you think your seating problem that you fixed solved your cat problem?


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## fire_man (Feb 15, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> fire_man said:
> 
> 
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Steve: Why do you engage at such a high temp? I think this may help solve my problem, but WS always said 200F was good for a SS cat, 250F was good for ceramic?


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## scotsman (Feb 15, 2012)

buck1200 said:
			
		

> I checked the cat tonight and found clear evidence that it was not seated squarely on the gasket- it rocked within the pocket, and the top half of the gasket is brown and sooty.  I flipped the cat over (it fit tighter the other way) and jammed a little fiberglass rope under it to keep it snug.  Now it's burning much better.  I have a nice dark firebox, a top stone approaching 500, and a flue temp solidly at 400, both right where they should be prior to turning in for the night.
> 
> Making 'progress'.



Thinking about doing the same. How much did you use and where did you put it? Did you use the gasket material like came with the PH? It bothers me for stuff to not be secured, at least to a small degree. I didn't like the gravity fit when I saw it, but then I'm not an expert. Thanks--


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## Flatbedford (Feb 15, 2012)

If I engage at a lower temp the stove doesn't really heat up. I will get a low, smokey burn at around 350. If I let it get  nice and hot without the cat and then engage, but keep the air around 1.5 - 2 for about 5 minutes and then lower it to to 1 or less the cat seems to heat up much better and do it's job. If I do this the stove top temp usually goes up to 550 - 600 within 20 - 30 minutes and stays there for a while. the stove will end up settling in at 400-450 for next several hours. This is how I have been burning most of the season. I still won't say it is a SS cat issue because of the other variables I mentioned above, warm outside temps and reduced draft, and all this not so quick to light up Black Locust. I did have better results with the little bit of Ash that I have, but I have been saving that for the real shoulder burning this spring.

I'll summarize by saying that I think the SS cat needs to be engaged much hotter than 200 or 250 for best results. 300 - 350 or even 400 works best for my setup and fuel.


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## WoodpileOCD (Feb 15, 2012)

Stump_Branch said:
			
		

> All the more reasons i feel all cat stoves should come with probes. Something really, its just a good thing to have. Cant really do much without knowing the light off temps



+1  
I depend on my cat probe to tell me what it is doing.   I run without the blowers when I can and a couple of times I had to turn them on because the cat temps were getting into the 1700-1800 range and I didn't want to damage it.  I would have never know that were it not for the probe.   Not that I'm that experienced with a cat (on my second season) but it never has made sense to me not to have one.   On the other hand, like a lot of people on here,  I like to measure everything.   %-P


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> If I engage at a lower temp the stove doesn't really heat up. I will get a low, smokey burn at around 350. If I let it get  nice and hot without the cat and then engage, but keep the air around 1.5 - 2 for about 5 minutes and then lower it to to 1 or less the cat seems to heat up much better and do it's job. If I do this the stove top temp usually goes up to 550 - 600 within 20 - 30 minutes and stays there for a while. the stove will end up settling in at 400-450 for next several hours. This is how I have been burning most of the season. I still won't say it is a SS cat issue because of the other variables I mentioned above, warm outside temps and reduced draft, and all this not so quick to light up Black Locust. I did have better results with the little bit of Ash that I have, but I have been saving that for the real shoulder burning this spring.
> 
> I'll summarize by saying that I think the SS cat needs to be engaged much hotter than 200 or 250 for best results. 300 - 350 or even 400 works best for my setup and fuel.



This should not be the case with the new steel cat, it should light off sooner and the temps should rise quickly as mine did for the first few months. Now it's just like yours, I have to engage a little hotter and give it more air than I use to to get it up over my desired 500 temps before turning the air down for a longer burn.

The ceramic cat I can just engage at #1 and it instantly glows and the temps go up fast. The steel cat it's more like 1.5 to engage or it stalls out.


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

WoodpileOCD said:
			
		

> Stump_Branch said:
> 
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I wish Woodstock would come out with a more accurate thermocouple probe for all their stoves we could purchase instead of the Condar probe which isn't as accurate and not installed in a good location.

Even drilling through the stove top doesn't make the Condar probe more accurate imo. There is too much radiant heat effecting that coil spring on the dial when you really need the temp right at the tip of the probe within 1/2" of the cat like a thermocouple can provide.


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

I received another email from Tom stating he will send me a replacement cat, either s/s or ceramic and would really like to test my old steel cat. Also said they think the greenish color of my cat is chromium and they are trying to figure out the cause and how heat effects it.

Also was interested in my observations of that trapped floating flame inside the new scoop next to the cat. They have tested and had a hard time creating a situation where flame impingement actually causes harm to the catalyst and thought the whole flame impingement talk was over rated but it was worth taking another look and recreate this situation in their lab.

Sud Chemie is also testing a few steel cats that were retrieved from Woodstock and they should have results soon.


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## KevinG (Feb 15, 2012)

So are you going to try a new ceramic cat and see if there's a noticeable difference?


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## scotsman (Feb 15, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> I received another email from Tom stating he will send me a replacement cat, either s/s or ceramic and would really like to test my old steel cat. Also said they think the greenish color of my cat is chromium and they are trying to figure out the cause and how heat effects it.
> 
> Also was interested in my observations of that trapped floating flame inside the new scoop next to the cat. They have tested and had a hard time creating a situation where flame impingement actually causes harm to the catalyst and thought the whole flame impingement talk was over rated but it was worth taking another look and recreate this situation in their lab.
> 
> Sud Chemie is also testing a few steel cats that were retrieved from Woodstock and they should have results soon.



Does that mean they don't need any more cats to test or work on? Thought I'd call and offer mine, since it's been in service for about the shortest time of any of 'em.

Also, can a ceramic cat be substituted for the S/S cat one-for-one with no mods? That would be cool, er, uh, great!

From working with Coors and touring their ceramic plant, they were saying that ceramic can be formulated to meet almost any application. Kinda like stainless: there are several formulations--301, 309, 409, 410, 420 & 430 that I know about and maybe more. Pete Coors was explaining that it was almost limitless. Wonder if WS has explored all the different formulations that might be available. From what I remember, there are always trade offs, like less of this property for more durability, for example, but that it can be made for a wide variety of uses. Just wondering.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 15, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> ..... they think the greenish color of my cat is chromium and they are trying to figure out the cause and how heat effects it.



Green like this?


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## HotCoals (Feb 15, 2012)

Man,that don't look good..very small holes also it seems.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 15, 2012)

Here's my cat and screen after about a month burning. It took about 10 minutes to remove, clean, and install them both. The only problem is that the stove has to be pretty cool to do this comfortably.


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
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Yep, but mine doesn't get as clogged as yours. What kind of wood are you burning? I'm burning 3 year old Oak.


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## oldspark (Feb 15, 2012)

Is there a coating on the steel, some of the steel ones have a coating dont they?


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

Texas boy said:
			
		

> Todd said:
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You could always ask them? I don't know if they make a ceramic cat for the new stove, I think they were all steel?


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 15, 2012)

Chromium tends to be the first thing to burn off on stainless. Look at the color distortions on ss welds, or take a torch to a piece. Each color represent a different temp. I think green is lower on that scale.

Id be concerned that the wash has been compromised, if that was the case. Cr melts at 3465f, Pd 2830f, and Pt 3214f. If the bulk of the wash is palladium, Pd, then id say evidence of chromium burning off posses a problem.

Wheres the master of chemistry, adios? Id suspect he could give us a good breakdown.


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## KevinG (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm burning 2 year CSS oak and my screen was far more clogged than that. The cat was about the same after a month or so of burning.

stump_branch - Those temps are fascinating but I find it hard to believe that the interior temp on a stove could get anywhere close to 2800f! I'll be very interested to hear what Woodstock says about these cats.


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## rideau (Feb 15, 2012)

Terry, The cats for the PH are all ss.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 15, 2012)

geoxman said:
			
		

> I stumbled across this thread yesterday and it is interesting! My stove FA-288CL had a perfect ceramic cat in it when I bought it, but I bought a SS from woodstock for main use and I kept the ceramic for a backup. I have noticed it gets clogged easily and when it does I rinse it with water and blow it dry. After cleaning the catalyst it ignites easily and cruises between 1500 and 1000 with ease. Cleaning every week was getting to be a PITA and from reading this thread I decided to put the ceramic in yesterday afternoon.
> The ceramic does not ignite at the lower temps but I am getting higher stove front temps, 500-600, for longer durations than with the SS cat? I can only measure the front and cat temp, 1000-1400, on my stove.
> I am not a newb to cats, 20 plus years with the Defiant/Encore, but this is odd. The wood is the same as well as the conditions and this has me stumped??
> The burn time is significantly longer and hotter with the ceramic  and I do not see how a catalyst could have that much of an impact on my stove. I have both and I will experiment over the next week or so and see how it goes. The front temperature difference is quite puzzling, but I will play with it. good luck
> ...



geoxman, for cleaning the cat all we've ever done is use an old paint brush and lightly brush any fly ash off the cat. That is all that has been required.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 15, 2012)

Sorry I haven't been on the forum much the last couple of days. I will say I am surprised at the pictures of the cats. I'll probably change ours tomorrow morning and will take a picture of it to post on here. We have pulled the cat 2 times just to see what it looked like and basically it looked almost as clean as when we put it in new. Really nothing to even brush off. 

I had been a bit concerned last week when we were having a problem getting the cat to light off. Then the weather turned cold and I feared what might happen. We did have a problem getting the cat to light off until we started engaging at a higher temperature. That is, a minimum of 300 stove top and 450-500 on the flue (single wall). Most of the time doing this we have not had so much of a problem and the last couple of days have really gone well so I am quite puzzled. 

For those amazed at Woodstock's customer service, you might also find it interesting that I received a call from Mr. Morrissey this afternoon and it was after Woodstock's closing time. Tom is a man who really cares and will find the problems and work them out. Of this I am convinced. I surely wish more companies were run like Woodstock is. 


btw, I intended on changing the cat this morning but my ambitious wife decided she wanted a fire going because she wanted to do the laundry. She dries the laundry near the stove then finishes them in the drier. So she got the stove going before I could switch the cat. I warned her about tomorrow. lol  We probably won't have much of a fire tonight again as the predicted low is only 33 degrees. So a light fire and the stove should be cool in the morning. I do plan on keeping some records with the new cat in place. 

So my suggestion right now to everyone with the cats is to engage at a bit higher temperature than you have been. As for those stating the cat doesn't work at the end of the burn, there just is nothing much there for the cat to do at the end of the burn so it should have no effect.


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## Todd (Feb 15, 2012)

Another thing Woodstock told me if anyone isn't happy with their steel cat you can exchange it for ceramic. I'm going back to ceramic til this gets figured out.


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## Buck1200 (Feb 16, 2012)

> Buck1200: Do you think your seating problem that you fixed solved your cat problem?



I think it pretty much has, yes.  There is still a difference now that it is broken in, but that cat seems to engage ok as long as the stove top is around 300 and I leave the air open a bit and quite a bit longer than I had to initially.  

But I'll be instrumenting this weekend with the hope of catching light off and stall conditions.  I'll post more when I know more.


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## Buck1200 (Feb 16, 2012)

> Thinking about doing the same. How much did you use and where did you put it? Did you use the gasket material like came with the PH? It bothers me for stuff to not be secured, at least to a small degree. I didnâ€™t like the gravity fit when I saw it, but then Iâ€™m not an expert. Thanksâ€”



I jammed about 3" of 3/8" fiberglass rope under the center of the cat.  My cat has a bit of a bow in it and flipped concave down, the rope pretty much filled in the gap created by the bow.  I had to use a flat blade screw driver to push the rope entirely in.  

Tom has contacted me as well, and today he states that they will likely have to come up with something to more positively retain the cat.


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## sappy (Feb 16, 2012)

I cleaned my steel cat today as well. It has only been 2 weeks but wanted to look up my pipe as well. Cat was very clean no discoloring. My pipe is double wall right straight up through hs. The length I can see is grey with some ash stuck to sides. Cannot see real well the important part going through roof, but suspect it is not too bad overall. The reson I am saying is as I posted earlier I have experienced most all comments in this thread as well. At first I hought it might be the pipe closing up. I know that is not the case as with d wall pipe I get it up to at least 250 to 300. Then I don't worry about stovetop. This is the same as single wall at 350 to 400. Usually it will pull so stong that if I don't incrementally damp it down it can jump from 180 to 350 in an instant. Not kidding . That is why it is crazy when with same wood another day I have to often leave damp at 1.5 plus for a bit play with it toward 1 like it was my first time. Tonight went well on real small load right off. Bullshit pieced I mean small not much and stove at 510 1.5 hrs later from 97 degrees. Go figure.


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## Diabel (Feb 16, 2012)

My cat started to fail noticeably after almost 5 months of steady 24/7 use.
Some posters are claiming ss cat disfunctioning after few weeks! This is hard to believe.... Wood is likely part of the 
problem! My ss cat does not show any green spots or any discolor... Yet it still stalls and takes a long time to light off.
Btw since I put the ceramic (much used) cat back in I am getting nice 8 hrs burns !


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## jdonna (Feb 16, 2012)

I ordered some new wrap two days ago for my ceramic backup cat and some extra for the ss cat.  I mentioned the issues I am having with the ss cat.  Was told they are finding the SS cat is not as hyper sensitive as when it was new and to engage after the flue temp is at 380 and hotter stove top temps.  For me, I hit 380 degrees pretty fast with out damping down.  Old news to most who are posting on this thread. 

I mentioned that my cat is red rusty/oxidized and they said they have had a few reports of that.  I also talked about the fly ash plugging the new ss scoop and they were aware of the issue and that it was better to have the ash on the screen than on the cat.  Apparently during testing they found that poisoning of the cat is the most common failure and that flame impingment, thermal shock and the other types of failures were not really the true cause.  

I wouldn't mind sending mine in for testing as well once I get the backup ceramic cat installed.  I have the same suspected stall out after it lights off, unless I have a full load and a good amount of air rushing through the stove.  I have noticed some smoke out of the stack and more creosote than I would like as well. 

They also mentioned that they are going to be working on a larger diameter stainless mesh screen for the scoop so that it flows a little better with less fly as plugging.  I said put me on the list!  I left my notes at work, but I was given a lot of information about the in and outs of the ss scoop design and the benefits.  

I do get however the reasoning behind going wih all ss cats.  Most consumers are not like us in doing the do diligence of cleaning the cat, proper fuel and monitoring temps. 

I did clean my cat again last night with a soft tooth brush and vacuumed out each channel.   I was able to hit 600 degree stove top, but I did engage well into the 300 degree stove top range with an air setting at 1.  Wasn't awake to see the results a few hours into the burn unfortunately.  

Thanks to everyone contributing to this topic.


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## neumsky (Feb 16, 2012)

Precaud...hope your reading this.


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## Nater (Feb 16, 2012)

A little late to this thread but I fear that mine is acting the same way.  I cleaned my screen and cat last weekend, both looked fairly clean, not nearly as plugged as I've seen on other threads here.  This week though, my cat doesn't seem to light off like it used to with a 250 stove top temp.  I've been waiting until 300+ to close the bypass or it just seems to stall out.  I've also noticed a lot more coaling in the morning with lower stove top temps, not sure if this is related or not.  I'm going to be watching this thread closely now and hopefully we will get some answers soon.


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## Waulie (Feb 16, 2012)

The last couple days it's been pretty warm here.  So, I've been doing half loads.  This is the first time I've noticed a sluggish cat.  With a fullish load, I haven't had any issues.  But, I've been having issues getting the cat to fire off with the half loads.  It's a shame because I love doing low, cat burns with half loads in this warmer weather.  I had no issues doing this previously.


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## Todd (Feb 16, 2012)

ss="spellchecked_word">jdonna said:
			
		

> I ordered some new wrap two days ago for my ceramic backup cat and some extra for the ss cat.  I mentioned the issues I am having with the ss cat.  Was told they are finding the SS cat is not as hyper sensitive as when it was new and to engage after the flue temp is at 380 and hotter stove top temps.  For me, I hit 380 degrees pretty fast with out damping down.  Old news to most who are posting on this thread.
> 
> I mentioned that my cat is red rusty/oxidized and they said they have had a few reports of that.  I also talked about the fly ash plugging the new ss scoop and they were aware of the issue and that it was better to have the ash on the screen than on the cat.  Apparently during testing they found that poisoning of the cat is the most common failure and that flame impingment, thermal shock and the other types of failures were not really the true cause.
> 
> ...



This is good news that they are looking into a different screen or scoop. I think they're walking a fine line trying to find the right combination between air flow and keeping the potassium poisoning filled ash from reaching the cat. They have tested the flow through both cats and found them to be about identical and the new screen gives a more even flow over the face of the cat than the old scoop. 

I know when I changed old scoops, new scoops, steel cat and ceramic cats all around I found you either have to put up with more ash on the screen or more on the cat. I chose the new scoop with ceramic cat. The new scoop does catch more ash but so does the new steel cat. The ceramic cat has larger cells that doesn't catch the smaller ash that can make it through the s/s screen but the steel cat with it's smaller cells can still plug up quicker.

I have a long handled wire brush I use every couple weeks to remove any build up on the screen without having to remove the scoop from a hot stove. Just takes a couple seconds to run it over the front of the screen.


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## KevinG (Feb 16, 2012)

Yeah but I find new scoop hard to remove and reinstall without really cooling the stove down. It's trivial to open the top and, with stove gloves, remove the cat for cleaning. Reaching into the stove to pull those pins with a pliers is easy. Reinstalling the scoop and reinserting the pins with one arm extended over a glowing bed of coals isn't much fun.


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## Battenkiller (Feb 16, 2012)

KevinG said:
			
		

> Those temps are fascinating but I find it hard to believe that the interior temp on a stove could get anywhere close to 2800f!



And it'd leave an interesting puddle if it was a cast stove.  Grey cast iron melts at around 2300ÂºF.


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## scotsman (Feb 16, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> ss="spellchecked_word">jdonna said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, what is a "scoop" so I'll know what y'all are talking about? Might be important that I know!  :blank:


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## oldspark (Feb 16, 2012)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> KevinG said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 The fire itself can be as high as 2732 though right, I googled it. :lol:


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## KevinG (Feb 16, 2012)

It's a part that fits under the cat, protecting it from flame and ash. The first had a cast floor and expanded metal front with open sides. Just a year ago, they switched to a stainless with a mesh front and sides.

Part W-249 at the bottom of this diagram - http://www.woodstove.com/images/stories/editorial_support/Manual_Img/fv205-internal.gif


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## NWfuel (Feb 16, 2012)

How many of you cats are using Super Cedar regularly. I have been assured from Sud Chemie that Super Cedar prolongs the life of com busters. However this was a few years back and I might need them to take another look at this.
I wonder if some ingredient could be added to Super Cedar to combat this reaction. I will be lurking.
Thomas


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## KevinG (Feb 16, 2012)

We always use about 1/6 of a Super Cedar to start a file. In the Fireview, that's rare during Dec-Feb. Maybe once every 3 weeks or so. Haven't used newspaper since fall of 2010, I think.


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## fire_man (Feb 16, 2012)

Nater said:
			
		

> A little late to this thread but I fear that mine is acting the same way.  I cleaned my screen and cat last weekend, both looked fairly clean, not nearly as plugged as I've seen on other threads here.  This week though, *my cat doesn't seem to light off like it used to with a 250 stove top temp*.  I've been waiting until 300+ to close the bypass or it just seems to stall out.  *I've also noticed a lot more coaling in the morning with lower stove top temps*, not sure if this is related or not.  I'm going to be watching this thread closely now and hopefully we will get some answers soon.



This is EXACTLY what I have noticed!


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 16, 2012)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Battenkiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Correct, im talking about small areas intermittently. I spelled out melting points of raw elements, hardly the case with alloy metals. 
The stainless scoop will develop color distortion due to heat, with but a few fires. Im saying that at that level, maybe some reaction takes place between this and the wash that cats are dipped, sprayed with whatever. Decreasing the activity of the precious metals.

No chemist here though. Just thinking through a green colored cat and the comments.


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## rideau (Feb 16, 2012)

Woodstock has a new, loose gasket for the combuster, as of today, so if you are having a problem, by all means call and ask them to send you one.....


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## Flatbedford (Feb 16, 2012)

KevinG said:
			
		

> Yeah but I find new scoop hard to remove and reinstall without really cooling the stove down. It's trivial to open the top and, with stove gloves, remove the cat for cleaning. Reaching into the stove to pull those pins with a pliers is easy. Reinstalling the scoop and reinserting the pins with one arm extended over a glowing bed of coals isn't much fun.



+1!


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## Todd (Feb 16, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> KevinG said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is what I use every couple weeks, takes a few seconds to clean off the screen without removing it and my hands don't even need to go inside the fire box.


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## KevinG (Feb 16, 2012)

Looks like a grill brush. I would be able to get the front and one side of the screen with that. Thanks for the pointer!

http://www.amazon.com/Weber-6424-21...MFSO/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1329424117&sr=8-4


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## timusp40 (Feb 16, 2012)

Too many inconsistancies, problems, and best guess solutions! I am not a long time member at the Hearth, but I post now and then and really appreciate the sage advise of all you members. This steel cat problem (it obviously is a problem) just gets bigger and bigger every day. Until a definivite solution comes forth, I doubt that this will be resolved to anyones satisfaction. I know Woodstock, Blaze King, and other stove manufactures do not make their cats. And I appreciate the obvious fact that Woodstock in particular is very concerned and has their reputation at stake as previous threads will support. However, I find very little in these 150 plus posts to assure me that a solution is right around the corner.

Sorry if I offended anyone,
Tim


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 16, 2012)

This morning I pulled the old cat from the Fireview. I purposely did not clean the cat so what you seen in the pictures is how it came from the stove. 

As you can see, the first picture is the bottom of the cat (the side that gets the flame). You will notice very little discoloration on either side of the cat. 













So I put the new cat in and also put some gasket in each corner to see what effect that might have. The old cat is on the way right now to Woodstock for testing. Then the busy day took over and the stove sit cold the rest of the day until just about an hour ago. When I got home I decided to light a fire although we could have waited as it is 41 degrees outside and not cold in the house. But I lit the fire by placing 2 splits on the bottom of the stove forming a vee. I then placed 1/4 of a Super Cedar and lit it. On a diagonal across the top of the vee of the splits I then placed 4 pieces of kindling. The kindling is soft maple split into approximately 1" x 1."  I then placed another split on top of the kindling. The splits were all white ash that was split and stacked in April 2009. The wood we are burning now was put into the barn last October. 

I engaged the catalyst when the stovetop reached 240 degrees and the flue was a bit over 500. I then decided to look at the cat right away so went from the side of the stove to the front. When I bent down so that I could see the cat, much to my surprise the thing was red already! About 1/2 hour later I looked again and it was red in the center of the cat. Just now I went to the stove to look again. There is no red on the catalyst and the stovetop is at 470 degrees. There is no smoke from the chimney.

I'm actually happy when I found that at present the cat is not red. The reason for that is because I think many folks are thinking their cats are not working when it is not glowing red. This is not true at all. We have many times seen no glowing red on the cat but know it is working fine because of the stovetop temperature. It is nice to see that red glow but it is not necessary.

As we use this new catalyst, I plan on keeping some records this time to notice any differences. I'm thinking about noting the wood, the outside temperature, wind, current conditions and if perhaps a low pressure is heading our way, etc. If anyone has other suggestions I will be happy to entertain the suggestions.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 16, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> .
> 
> As we use this new catalyst, I plan on keeping some records this time to notice any differences. I'm thinking about noting the wood, the outside temperature, wind, current conditions and if perhaps a low pressure is heading our way, etc. If anyone has other suggestions I will be happy to entertain the suggestions.



Oh, to be retired!  
 I wake up in the morning, load the stove, shower, dress, engage the cat, set the air and run out the door. When I get home at night, l reload and go to bed. I wish I could take the time to keep records like that.... Some day.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 16, 2012)

NW Fuels said:
			
		

> How many of you cats are using Super Cedar regularly. I have been assured from Sud Chemie that Super Cedar prolongs the life of com busters. However this was a few years back and I might need them to take another look at this.
> I wonder if some ingredient could be added to Super Cedar to combat this reaction. I will be lurking.
> Thomas



Thomas, you already know we use the Super Cedars. I do find it interesting that Sud Chemie states the Super Cedars prolong the life of the cat. I will add to this stating I have never in my lifetime lit so many fires from scratch as this year. The winter has been so mild plus the added insulation we put in last summer that many times we just have not needed a fire in the stove. Most nights we do not stock the stove full and many times I'll put in only 3 or 4 splits. Naturally the stove is cooled pretty much in the mornings but the house is still warm. Sometimes we'll light a fire right away but many times we just wait until we start feeling cool. This means we use a Super Cedar for lighting the fire. I doubt there will be many who have used as many Super Cedars as we have this winter. But as you no doubt have read now, we have returned our SS cat to Woodstock. They will be doing some testing on the cat and it might be interesting to hear what they find or do not find. 

Do you have something in mind that you are thinking of adding to the Super Cedars?


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 16, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Steve, retirement has both plus and minus to it. I might add that it just seems that retirement was made for guys like me! lol  I'm not sure what it would be like to return to a "normal" job because there just is not enough time in the day to do what I want to do. Well, some of that is because I tire quicker and rest more but I don't mind the resting part.


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## HollowHill (Feb 16, 2012)

Just wondering, how many started to notice a problem with their cats after cleaning them?  I'm wondering if I put mine in not quite snuggly enough.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 16, 2012)

timusp40 said:
			
		

> Too many inconsistancies, problems, and best guess solutions! I am not a long time member at the Hearth, but I post now and then and really appreciate the sage advise of all you members. This steel cat problem (it obviously is a problem) just gets bigger and bigger every day. Until a definivite solution comes forth, I doubt that this will be resolved to anyones satisfaction. I know Woodstock, Blaze King, and other stove manufactures do not make their cats. And I appreciate the obvious fact that Woodstock in particular is very concerned and has their reputation at stake as previous threads will support. However, I find very little in these 150 plus posts to assure me that a solution is right around the corner.
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone,
> Tim



Tim, I highly doubt that you have offended anyone on this forum or anyone at Woodstock. As for it being a major problem, I just do not see that yet. A problem, yes, but not a major one.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 16, 2012)

HollowHill said:
			
		

> Just wondering, how many started to notice a problem with their cats after cleaning them?  I'm wondering if I put mine in not quite snuggly enough.



Good point HollowHill. It does seem there has been some problems with the gasket and that is being taken care of. It might also be of interest to find out how people are cleaning the cats. As for us, we use an old paint brush and just lightly brush both sides and then put it back in place.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 16, 2012)

Funny after all this talk of a problem I started my Fireview from cold last night with some crumpled news paper, 6 1x1x12" ceder sticks, and 4 thin Ask splits. I engaged that cat at about 300 and in about 30 minutes it was cruising at about 500. I think my problem is getting that darn Black Locust burning.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 16, 2012)

That is good to know Steve. I hope you got that cat unclogged. I was amazed at how much ash you had in that. Almost every time we clean our cat it looks just about like those pictures I posted. We normally clean our cat 2 times per year.


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## fire_man (Feb 16, 2012)

timusp40 said:
			
		

> Too many inconsistancies, problems, and best guess solutions! I am not a long time member at the Hearth, but I post now and then and really appreciate the sage advise of all you members. This steel cat problem (it obviously is a problem) just gets bigger and bigger every day. Until a definivite solution comes forth, I doubt that this will be resolved to anyones satisfaction. I know Woodstock, Blaze King, and other stove manufactures do not make their cats. And I appreciate the obvious fact that Woodstock in particular is very concerned and has their reputation at stake as previous threads will support. However, I find very little in these 150 plus posts to assure me that a solution is right around the corner.
> 
> Sorry if I offended anyone,
> Tim



Worst case solution: Go back to the trusted ceramic cat


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## fire_man (Feb 16, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm with you on that, Steve!


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## NWfuel (Feb 17, 2012)

Dennis,

I had just came across this thread and quickly thought to myself what if the Super Cedar is contributing to this cat problem. I wanted to hear from the ones as yourself who are using my product and if there was a fact being over looked. If their is a way to even add a ingredient that could reverse a reaction in these cats I thought the start up was a good place to add it. On my website www.supercedar.com you can read the Sud Chemie report stating the Super Cedar will prolong the life of the combuster. When I read the cat life might be shortening I wanted to be on top of it if I could help.

Thomas


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks Thomas. I also highly suggest you work with Tom Morrissey on this too.


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## NWfuel (Feb 17, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Thanks Thomas. I also highly suggest you work with Tom Morrissey on this too.


Dennis, by the way your cats look great! Very good burning habits.
Thomas


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks Thomas. When we purchased the Fireview we were advised to check the cat something like every 6 weeks. We quickly realized that was not necessary in our case. So we normally clean it in mid winter and then again with the normal summer cleaning. Most of the time the cat looks very similar to those pictures I just posted. I give half the credit to Woodstock's stove and the other half to our fuel. We learned many moons ago that drying the wood several years pays great dividends. Our first 4 years with the Fireview we burned an average of 3 cord of wood per year and that is coming off of 6+ cord we used to burn. We will be a long ways from burning 3 cord this year. I'm amazed at how little we've burned, just like I'm amazed at how many Super Cedars we've used. lol  But we still have plenty and still love them.


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## NWfuel (Feb 17, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Thanks Thomas. When we purchased the Fireview we were advised to check the cat something like every 6 weeks. We quickly realized that was not necessary in our case. So we normally clean it in mid winter and then again with the normal summer cleaning. Most of the time the cat looks very similar to those pictures I just posted. I give half the credit to Woodstock's stove and the other half to our fuel. We learned many moons ago that drying the wood several years pays great dividends. Our first 4 years with the Fireview we burned an average of 3 cord of wood per year and that is coming off of 6+ cord we used to burn. We will be a long ways from burning 3 cord this year. I'm amazed at how little we've burned, just like I'm amazed at how many Super Cedars we've used. lol  But we still have plenty and still love them.



I have been told that start up of the stove is hard on the cats as well as your fuel source. They like it hot!
Thomas


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 17, 2012)

My cat tends to look similar to yours backwoods, a bit of a sprinkle of fly ash on it like a piece of powered sugar french toast.

What is this gasket material that wraps the cat made of? I get the fact of it 'sealing' the area so the flow is through it and not around it. But it seems too hot an area for pure kaowool and such. I need to order the gasket, combustor housing, and would like the new scoop...just have to get around to it.


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## rideau (Feb 17, 2012)

For what it is worth, I cleaned the ceramic cat on my Fireview once a year in the spring - it never had much at all to clean, and my first cat lasted almost five years, but the PH has been a different story.   My stovepipe/chimney with the Fireview yielded about a cup and a half of "good" per my sweep soot once a year. That was true for over six years.   However, with the PH my screen and cat were completely blocked after about a month with fine grayish white fly ash.. The cat looked fine to visual inspection, but the entire surface distally was covered...you couldn't see any cells.  However, it was surface ash only...there wasn't any in the cells.   I did have two experiences of starting a fire with crumpled paper and as the door was closing having the paper incinerate with a temendous whoosh that didn't do anything to my stove but made the stovepipe rumble and shake for an instant.  That certainly could have sucked a lot of fly ash up the pipe..didn't know to check at the time, so don't know if that experience clogged the screen/cat.    Was doing a top down fire, started from ash with a few coals.  .  Have not started a fire with paper since...use birchbark as firestarter..  Since my cleaning of the screen and cat, I have not had a subsequent problem.  I'll be checking the cat again in about a week, and am getting my chimney swept from the roof down in March, once it is safe to go up on my steep three story high roof.  Had put off my annual sweep for the Fireview until PH installation, expecting installation in early November and wanting to start with a clean chimney with the PH.  At the time of actual installation in late December we were having an ice storm...precluded cleaning.  Am rather anxious to see how the sweep  goes, since my cat experience is so different.  The good thing:  what was on the cat/screen would not be at all bad for the chimney.  But I did have a day or two of really bad burning before it occurred to me my cat had to be clogged...
?


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## jdonna (Feb 17, 2012)

This is good news that they are looking into a different screen or scoop. I think they're walking a fine line trying to find the right combination between air flow and keeping the potassium poisoning filled ash from reaching the cat. They have tested the flow through both cats and found them to be about identical and the new screen gives a more even flow over the face of the cat than the old scoop. 

I know when I changed old scoops, new scoops, steel cat and ceramic cats all around I found you either have to put up with more ash on the screen or more on the cat. I chose the new scoop with ceramic cat. The new scoop does catch more ash but so does the new steel cat. The ceramic cat has larger cells that doesn't catch the smaller ash that can make it through the s/s screen but the steel cat with it's smaller cells can still plug up quicker.

I have a long handled wire brush I use every couple weeks to remove any build up on the screen without having to remove the scoop from a hot stove. Just takes a couple seconds to run it over the front of the screen.[/quote]

Thank you for contributing to what I was told, wrote the post late last night.  The flow rate is supposed to be identical. I agree on it being a fine line, I understand too that you are getting a better flow across the face of the cat.  I did mention that the old scoop had a more even burn instead of left to right, which they found to be interesting because they are finding that it was supposed to be more even with the new scoop than the old scoop.

I have debated about the thin stainless mesh on the new scoop as helping ignite volatile gasses pre-cat, similar to a sunflower type heater.   I know mine will glow quite bright.  

Cannot wait to try and swap to the ceramic cat and see what the results are.  

 I know in the automotive world, poisoning a cat is the quick way to a failed cat, much faster in some instances than loading it up with raw fuel.  Just think back to the late 70's and early 80's how much abuse those poor cats went through with overly rich mixtures.  

I am confident that Woodstock will get to the bottom of this and have a great fix.  

Interesting to hear everybody's views out there.  I know for myself, even with a minor issue I am still 150% more satisfied over the chronic problem laden harman oakwood that is now sitting in my garage.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 17, 2012)

I let the stove go out yesterday and cleaned the SS cat, screen and glass. All I had to clean up was a bit of fly ash on the combustor, the screen seemed to catch most of it. The combustor didn't show any of the green tint that's visible in some of the posted pics but I've only run this stove for about six weeks. I'm surprised that they haven't been able to duplicate the burn that sometimes occurs inside the screen under the combustor. Maybe this occurs more often when there's a buildup of fly ash on the screen. Anyway, I usually cold-start with a top-down fire and I think that gets the top of the stove up to temp pretty quickly. I run the probe around 900 for several minutes and then the combustor lights off strong even with the stove top 250 or less. I don't get identical light-offs or burns in the stove every time; I think there are a lot variables involved...


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## greythorn3 (Feb 17, 2012)

i cant wait to see what the next innovation will be with woodstoves.


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## chipsoflyin (Feb 17, 2012)

How bout a ceramic cat for the PH


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## fire_man (Feb 17, 2012)

chipsoflyin said:
			
		

> How bout a ceramic cat for the PH



I was thinking I'd rather deal with the expense myself of replacing a crumbling cat every two years, rather than have a finicky,inconsistent SS cat. But
the end of this chapter has not been written yet... stay tuned.


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## Waulie (Feb 17, 2012)

> I was thinking Iâ€™d rather deal with the expense myself of replacing a crumbling cat every two years



Why would you have to do that?


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## fire_man (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm guessing one of the reasons WS is going to the SS cats is because the ceramics had a history of not always holding out for 5 years . They had a propensity towards crumbling, and they claim the failure mechanisms were not caused by moisture/wet wood. I'm not sure what they say about whether thermal shock is a failure mechanism. Maybe Todd can chime in here. 

I know one of the primary failure mechanisms they cited was potassium poisoning, but I don't know why the SS cats would not also be susceptible to potassium. 
My first ceramic crumbled after one year, the second cat is still going strong after 2.5  years. I blame the first failuer on unseasoned wood, because my wood was not properly seasoned at first. By the time I got my second cat, I read enough of Dennis' posts so that I had the fear of unseasoned wood instilled into me. Cat #2 was still purring along just fine.


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## Waulie (Feb 17, 2012)

Gotcha.  I guess WS is kind of stuck.  They can't really change their cat warrenty without issues, and right now the choice is between selling a cat that might not last more than a year with improper burning habits or one that may not last more than a month regardless.


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2012)

That doesn't sound like a hard choice at all. One can fall back on - you didn't follow directions and have voided the warranty. The other, well, if there is no fallback, they are SOL.


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## timusp40 (Feb 18, 2012)

Being a potential purchaser of a cat stove, I posted earlier that a solution to the SS cat issues were not anywhere close to happening. Perhpas some humble pie here as I related to so many posts from mostly PH owners that are not enjoying trouble free operation of their cats. After reading this information (admittedly a couple of years old)

http://www.chimneysweepnews.com/Combustors.htm

I have a better understanding of cats and how they can be vulnerable if they are not operated to maximum potential. This thread on the Hearth has been both informative and educational. Where alse could anyyone get such first hand unbiased information about a product?
Tim


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## Slow1 (Feb 18, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> That doesn't sound like a hard choice at all. One can fall back on - you didn't follow directions and have voided the warranty. The other, well, if there is no fallback, they are SOL.



I'm sure that some companies would try the "you voided the warranty" approach.  However in a case where it is essentially impossible to prove what a user did or did not do how can you really enforce such a policy without creating the impression that you are blaming users for your products failure?  Just using the fact that something failed prematurely as evidence that someone didn't follow directions is like saying your product can't possibly fail... hmmm....  no good way to come out of that one looking good in the eyes of a customer left holding the bag.  Won't get you the loyal following that WS has eh?

Better to find a way to make it work as advertised and educate folks as necessary.  The truth in the long run will pay off if your product really is superior.


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## begreen (Feb 18, 2012)

Ceramic cats have been out for a long time. Their operation and caveats are well described in the stove manual. And most stove companies will not honor warranty when it is obvious that the user is burning wet wood or has contaminated the cat in a short period of time. That is very different from an outright failure of the stainless cat in a short period of time with no sign of misuse. 

I know Woodstock is an honorable company, which seems to put it in a very tough situation with the decision to go with the metal cats. If they are failing prematurely, WS could have a major warranty issue here.


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## scotsman (Feb 18, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Ceramic cats have been out for a long time. Their operation and caveats are well described in the stove manual. And most stove companies will not honor warranty when it is obvious that the user is burning wet wood or has contaminated the cat in a short period of time. That is very different from an outright failure of the stainless cat in a short period of time with no sign of misuse.
> 
> I know Woodstock is an honorable company, which seems to put it in a very tough situation with the decision to go with the metal cats. If they are failing prematurely, WS could have a major warranty issue here.



Okay, if there's one thing I know, it's that my cat will never be damaged by my wood, so that is NOT a concern! However, I've gathered that opening the door without dis-engaging the cat IS a problem. So, here are my questions--
--what does it do to a ceramic cat?
--what does it do to the s/s cat?
--isn't the metal cat exposed to room air even when the by-pass is open? From looking in my PH, it appears that the cat is gonna get exposed to the colder air no matter what, 'cause it seems the air has to pass over the cat on it's way out the flue. Just what it looks like to me-don't see how it can miss it. Am I not reading the evidence correctly? Wondering . . . !

I have nothing but respect and admiration for WS. Never have I had such response and assistance--and that covers a LOT of years, y'all!


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## rideau (Feb 18, 2012)

I believe the cat manufacturer warranties the cat.  
I believe Woodstock's switch to ss was motivated by a desire to give its customers a cat that would be less problematic for the customer, and thus more satisfactory.
My 1st ceramic cat lasted almost five years, despite at least two times of getting the stove too hot with (I am sure) flame impingement on the cat.  I do think flame impingement damages the cat quickly.  As I recall, Woodstock's manual states that the screen is there in the Fireview to keep flame away from the cat
.
I'm totally guessing, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are more and more first time wood burners, who have to learn not only a new stove, but also the art of wood burning.  If that is so, Woodstock may have been running into an increasing problem with failure of customer's first cats.  Also, ss cats presumably have been improved over the years.  I'm under the impression that Woodstock thinks that at least one of the problems people are having is related to loose fit of the cat and smoke taking the path of least resistance around the cat.  I don't think it is failure of the cat itself....I certainly don't think it is established that that is the primary issue.  I believe Woodstock feels it can solve the mechanical issue of smoke seepage around the cat.  The cat manufacturer is also apparently examing the returned cats for defects or damage.  
My ss cat has been fine so far, and I suspect there are others out there who have not experienced problems...Woodstock itself has not, despite "torturing" the stove in their internal trials before marketing the stove.  I'm sure they did not casually convert to the ss cat. 
Let's not lose track of the fact that they got these stoves out to us at a great price, and told us they were doing it because they wanted to get a lot of stoves in homes quickly so they could see if there were any issues when the stoves were used in varying real world situations. I'm delighted I've had this stove to heat my home this winter. There obviously are a few minor issues, but this is a great stove.  I loved my Fireview but would be really unhappy if I had to go back to it, for instance.  And I had no problem with my Fireview at any time during the many years I owned it.  I have had a few minor, irritating problems with this stove, but they are minor and I am confidant Woodstock will resolve them.  Basically, I trust and respect Woodstock.  
I think those of us who are blessed with a PH all appreciate the stove.  Because we are openly discussing issues and trying to resolve glitches quickly, people who don't have this stove are assuming it isn't as great as it is, or that it was released too soon, or that it has major issues.  In my opinion, none of that is so.


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## rideau (Feb 18, 2012)

Terry, as far as I know, which may not be very far, the only reason to disengage the cat before opening the door is to increase draft and minimize the chance of smoke coming into the room.  This applies equally to SS and ceramic cat.  Both restrict air flow somewhat when engaged.


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## Slow1 (Feb 18, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> Terry, as far as I know, which may not be very far, the only reason to disengage the cat before opening the door is to increase draft and minimize the chance of smoke coming into the room.  This applies equally to SS and ceramic cat.  Both restrict air flow somewhat when engaged.



Another good reason is to reduce the amount of ash hitting the cat.  Keep in mind that when you feed the stove you typically stir up quite a bit more ash then when just burning.  

Now I don't know if the thermal shock of steam hitting the ceramic cats is still considered an issue or not, but that was also one of the original reasons given for opening the bypass and leaving it open for a bit after loading.  I know that some research has been done that may refute the risk there but it may still be recommended by the cat manufacturers - I just don't know.


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## raybonz (Feb 18, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> Terry, as far as I know, which may not be very far, the only reason to disengage the cat before opening the door is to increase draft and minimize the chance of smoke coming into the room.  This applies equally to SS and ceramic cat.  Both restrict air flow somewhat when engaged.



You are correct.. If you do not open the bypass before opening the door smoke will come out of the door. As for damaging the cat this way I say no it will not hurt the cat just the stove user. What will damage the cat is direct flame impingement and severe sudden cold or hot shock. On my CDW I did not close the cat bypass until I had lowered the air a bit also when reloading if you have snow or some surface moisture on the wood let it burn hot for 15 mins. before lowering the air a bit then close the bypass. I thought I would miss my cat stove but I have found secondary burn is much more forgiving and foolproof compared to my CDW. Good luck on the cat issues..

Ray


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## adamscotera (Feb 18, 2012)

Hey everyone, glad I found this thread.
I've also got a ss cat in my Fireview, which burned the hell out of the smoke for the first month, then got clogged with ash. I burned for a couple  of weeks with it removed (posted about that earlier), and then cleaned it out and also took out the scoop and knocked all the crud out of it. I also changed my burning habits because my wood is not dry enough- now I leave the bypass open with full draft until I get the flue temp back up to 400, then close it down to around 1 (with bypass still open) and leave it until all the wood is ignited and the fire stabilizes at 400 or higher with the lower draft. Only then do I engage the combustor, and lower the draft some more. This worked well for about a week, and then I began having trouble getting it to light off again. We had a warm day and I was able to let the stove cool down, so I took the combustor out for cleaning again. It looked fine, but I brushed it anyway and jiggled it a bit to release the ash. That's when I noticed shiny dust coming out. I jiggled a bit more and examined the floor, and sure enough there were many small particles of a bright shiny metal. Platinum flaking off? Again today I don't seem to be getting very good function.
Anybody aware of platinum flaking off combustors?
Adam

a few hours later:
The combustor is still functional. With a full load of very thin splits that really need more drying, I did my warm-up/ignition procedure and once the wood was ready, I closed the damper all the way. That was an hour and a half ago, and I've got 550 on the top and 350 on the exit pipe. There's a big glowing pile, and about every 10 seconds a wave of flame will roll across above it and fill the space for a few seconds. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe part of the problem has been too much velocity through the combustor. Still wonder how much platinum it's lost and how that will affect the longevity. But for now I'll concentrate on splitting all my wood to kindling dimensions.


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## WoodpileOCD (Feb 18, 2012)

adamscotera said:
			
		

> Hey everyone, glad I found this thread.
> I've also got a ss cat in my Fireview, which burned the hell out of the smoke for the first month, then got clogged with ash. I burned for a couple  of weeks with it removed (posted about that earlier), and then cleaned it out and also took out the scoop and knocked all the crud out of it. I also changed my burning habits because my wood is not dry enough- now I leave the bypass open with full draft until I get the flue temp back up to 400, then close it down to around 1 (with bypass still open) and leave it until all the wood is ignited and the fire stabilizes at 400 or higher with the lower draft. Only then do I engage the combustor, and lower the draft some more. This worked well for about a week, and then I began having trouble getting it to light off again. We had a warm day and I was able to let the stove cool down, so I took the combustor out for cleaning again. It looked fine, but I brushed it anyway and jiggled it a bit to release the ash. That's when *I noticed shiny dust coming out. I jiggled a bit more and examined the floor, and sure enough there were many small particles of a bright shiny metal. Platinum flaking off?* Again today I don't seem to be getting very good function.
> Anybody aware of platinum flaking off combustors?
> Adam
> ...



Been following this thread closely even though I don't have a SS cat.  I just enjoy and learn from any discussions about cat technology.  This metal flaking off is a new development and I'm really curious to see if anyone else notices it.   I'll bet some of you will be cleaning your cats now to find out.   Just reading this thread it sounds like a Woodstock problem but how about people who have replaced ceramic with SS in other stoves.  Any problems there?


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## certified106 (Feb 18, 2012)

I have been following this thread just to see how this whole thing turns out with mild amusement because when I stated earlier this year that my previous SS Cat wasn't holding up well I got slammed on how there was so much research and I must have bout a cheap Cat (which it wasn't). Earlier this year I stated the my stainless cat on my previous Dutchwest didn't hold up very well at all and after about 1.5 years you could actually hear pieces rattle around if you shook it at all and little metal pieces would come out of it much like the poster above described . It had the same characteristics as everyone else on here where it worked great for the first half the year but then in the following burn season it began sharply declining to the point where at the end of the burn season I had to really pay attention to getting it lit off and it took way higher temps to light off. I wasn't that impressed with the longevity of Condar Cat I had and I am interested to hear what gets turned up when they get to the bottom of this thing.


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## begreen (Feb 18, 2012)

It's nice when life gets simpler isn't it?


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## raybonz (Feb 18, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> It's nice when life gets simpler isn't it?



Yup I must say that the T-5 has been great so far and secondary burns are easy to achieve and pretty darn consistant.. Never thought I'd see such efficiency and long burn times plus lots of fast heat when needed. So far this has been a good choice! I can't tell you how many times I'd drive into my driveway and see smoke billowing out the chimney and my wife would tell me I am warm so what is the problem? I'd find the cat temp at 300 and stalled with both a ceramic and a s/s cat.. It's pretty hard to not get secondary burn even by accident with the T-5..

Ray


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 18, 2012)

Just a quickie for reference. We installed the new SS cat on Thursday. Yes, the cat began glowing super fast the first time. In fact, it was so fast that I engaged the cat and then walked in front of the stove to look up and it was glowing red already. So we're talking a few seconds. The next load saw the cat maybe 2-3 seconds slower in lighting off. 

After putting in several loads I can say the most times the cat lights off really super fast....but not every time. In addition to that, the cat may not glow for very long at all. I have not timed that yet but have just looked at the cat after a while if I'm by the stove. The present load had the cat glowing maybe 5 minutes maximum before no glow at all. So is the cat working? Some would immediately say no.  

When I engaged the cat the stove top temperature was 270. Flue was 470. When I looked and the cat was not glowing, the stove top was at 400. It looks like the stove topped out at 520 degrees and is at 500 now. The stove load was with 3 very small ash splits and 1 small cherry. So is this cat working? I have to say yes, otherwise that stove temperature likely would not have went over 400 and may have struggled even to get that high. 

So far we've had six loads and none were with more than 4 splits. The highest stove temperature recorded is 610. Last night I did not get the peak temperature as I simply went to bed and forgot the stove until morning. Well, I have to admit that I did look one time during the night when I got up. There wasn't a whole lot of wood left in the stove then and the temperature was somewhere around 500-550. I didn't have my glasses on so only looked quickly and could tell it was somewhere in that area. I know the house was pretty darned warm!


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## rdust (Feb 19, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> So is the cat working? Some would immediately say no.



I'm sure it is, the cat doesn't need to glow to work.  Mine will glow for hours on some loads and 30 minutes on other loads.  If the temps stay up, probe stays active and all the wood gets consumed with a smoke free stack the cat is working.


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## Waulie (Feb 19, 2012)

> I think those of us who are blessed with a PH all appreciate the stove.  Because we are openly discussing issues and trying to resolve glitches quickly, people who donâ€™t have this stove are assuming it isnâ€™t as great as it is, or that it was released too soon, or that it has major issues.  In my opinion, none of that is so.



Well said, and I completely agree.  I hope these issues are put in context with all the glowing reviews of the Progress, but I'm sure some folks will see any negatives and be scared off.  The Progress is in fact an amazing stove and I would buy one again in a second.  I am confident the cat issues will be resolved and with a couple other minor tweaks, this stove will be darn near perfect.

My cat is still working, but it definately needs higher temps to light off.  I'm just going to finish out the season and I'm sure WS will have the issue resolved for next season.

On a side note, we have had several days of pretty warm weather (highs in the 30s, lows in the mid 20s).  I've been doing half loads, which work great in this weather.  I forgot to check to weather forecast yesterday and I loaded a half load last night at 8:00 pm just assumming it would be another warm night.  I woke up at 7:00 am and the house felt a bit chillier than usual.  It wasn't cold, just not as warm as usual.  I looked at the outdoor thermo and it was 8 degress!  Stove top was at 210 and the house was 64.  I was able to easily re-light the stove with a couple pieces of kindling.  So, with a tiny bit of wood, I kept my house pretty darn warm for 11 hours in single digit temps!  Yes, the Progress is a great stove.


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## oldspark (Feb 19, 2012)

I dont have a cat stove either but I found this thread very interesting, the SS turning green really made me wonder what was happening so I found this little tid bit and not sure if this rings true with your cats but have a look.
"The green color that you see on stainless steel parts is chromium oxide (Cr2O3). It forms when there is too much oxygen and/or moisture in the furnace atmosphere, which is usually caused by a water leak, poor atmosphere tightness, or overly low flow rates of atmosphere gas. A dark green-brown color indicates significant levels of free oxygen inside furnace originated by a large air leakage."


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## Todd (Feb 19, 2012)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I dont have a cat stove either but I found this thread very interesting, the SS turning green really made me wonder what was happening so I found this little tid bit and not sure if this rings true with your cats but have a look.
> "The green color that you see on stainless steel parts is chromium oxide (Cr2O3). It forms when there is too much oxygen and/or moisture in the furnace atmosphere, which is usually caused by a water leak, poor atmosphere tightness, or overly low flow rates of atmosphere gas. A dark green-brown color indicates significant levels of free oxygen inside furnace originated by a large air leakage."



Interesting, I wonder if I'm sucking too much moist oxygen in through my OAK? Sure don't have a water leak.


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## oldspark (Feb 19, 2012)

"Interesting, I wonder if Iâ€™m sucking too much moist oxygen in through my OAK? Sure donâ€™t have a water leak."
 :lol: I left that in there so as not to imply it was something it was not.


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## raybonz (Feb 19, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nichrome heaters turn green when heated... S/S contains both so it is probably nothing to worry about.. 

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_chemical_composition_of_stainless_steel

Ray


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## Todd (Feb 19, 2012)

rdust said:
			
		

> Backwoods Savage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know all the experts say the cat doesn't have to glow to be working but once you get to learn your stove and correlate temps with glowing and non glowing cats you can pretty much figure if you see less glowing than you used to the cat may be a little less active. Since my Keystones have such a great view of the cat I pretty much see it all the time and if I engage a full load and don't see some red in the cat I can pretty much guarantee it hasn't lit off yet and I can also confirm this my looking at the chimney.

When I was switching out my steel and ceramic cats the biggest difference I could see is when I turned the stoves down to a low cat burn to around a .5 air setting the flames would eventually snuff out and the ceramic cat would turn beet red every time with the stove top temps rising rapidly. The steel cat use to do the same thing at the beginning of the season but now it has diminished and sometimes doesn't even glow red. The stove temps are also much slower to come up with this low cat burn setting.

According to the experts the cat will glow at temps over 1000 degrees. The experts also say smoke starts to burn at temps over 1000 degrees. So wouldn't a glowing cat tell you it's doing it's job?


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## Todd (Feb 19, 2012)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was told Sud Chemie and Woodstock were very interested in what's causing this green color and how heat effects it. They tested one green cat retrieved from Woodstock and found it to still be active. I'll be sending mine out this week so it will be interesting to fnd out what they find.


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## Armoured (Feb 19, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> [According to the experts the cat will glow at temps over 1000 degrees. The experts also say smoke starts to burn at temps over 1000 degrees. So wouldn't a glowing cat tell you it's doing it's job?



Not necessarily. The whole point of a catalyst is that the reaction taking place in the presence of the catalyst can take place at a lower temperature than would be the case if the catalyst were not there. The temperature at which it's glowing would not necessarily be the same - although glowing would be a pretty strong indication it is hot enough, not glowing might not mean it's not hot enough. Boy, that was a mouthful. 

Of course, best to hear what the manufacturer has to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis


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## certified106 (Feb 19, 2012)

Todd, that is exactly what I found to be true on my previous cat stove. If you had a full load of wood at the begining of the burn cycle there would be smoke coming out of the chimney unless the cat was glowing. Now at the end of the cycle if it wasn't glowing there was no smoke, however I believe that was due to the fact all the wood had already offgassed.


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 19, 2012)

adamscotera said:
			
		

> Hey everyone, glad I found this thread.
> I've also got a ss cat in my Fireview, It looked fine, but I brushed it anyway and jiggled it a bit to release the ash. That's when I noticed shiny dust coming out. I jiggled a bit more and examined the floor, and sure enough there were many small particles of a bright shiny metal. Platinum flaking off? Again today I don't seem to be getting very good function.
> Anybody aware of platinum flaking off combustors?
> Adam.




Took mine out friday. Cleaned and shoved some kaowool in the loose corners. Those bits of metal come from the gasket material that wraps the cat, interim gasket or something.  

I had a few cells closed just at the bottom and just in one spot. Brushed it off. Took the combustor housing off, tried to straighen the slight bow in the bottom half, crack in two. Dang. Only 11 bucks from WS...guess im forced to call them now. I put it all back together. And proceeded to do low cat burns this whole weekend. I had one stall, but a bit more air and it came back to life so it was probably me.

Cat glowed for hours during these low cat burns. Wish i knew what ceramic was like to even compare.


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## sappy (Feb 19, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:
			
		

> Just a quickie for reference. We installed the new SS cat on Thursday. Yes, the cat began glowing super fast the first time. In fact, it was so fast that I engaged the cat and then walked in front of the stove to look up and it was glowing red already. So we're talking a few seconds. The next load saw the cat maybe 2-3 seconds slower in lighting off.
> 
> After putting in several loads I can say the most times the cat lights off really super fast....but not every time. In addition to that, the cat may not glow for very long at all. I have not timed that yet but have just looked at the cat after a while if I'm by the stove. The present load had the cat glowing maybe 5 minutes maximum before no glow at all. So is the cat working? Some would immediately say no.
> 
> ...


yea Dennis we have experienced most of these symtoms with the cat folks speak of as well. This am 28 to 32 out got a med fire going at 500 plus stovetop real real orange combester air on 1. I was out in yard and an hour to an hour and a hald lite smoke briefly starteed coming out. Went in and put the air at 1.5 and seems well yet bottem back piece is taking time burning up. 2nd time I have seen this when seeminly all else is going well. I heat pipe D-wall to 250 280plus add a hundred to that for single-usually will be fine-go figure. Also the other thing which is common on here is stove going incredible before Engaging then down to next to nothing after. Don't know if any of this is cat or not as I cleaned it and screen thouroly 4 days ago and as mentioned will most of time glow qite orange.


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## rdust (Feb 19, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> Since my Keystones have such a great view of the cat I pretty much see it all the time and if I engage a full load and don't see some red in the cat I can pretty much guarantee it hasn't lit off yet and I can also confirm this my looking at the chimney.



My cat will always glow when I first close the bypass, it may glow for a half hour or may glow for hours on end.  I find if I'm on low and have the fans running the cat will not glow as long.  I can have a glowing cat turn the fans on and the cat will stop glowing shortly after, if I turn the fans off the cat will start to glow again.  I've watched the chimney during all these times and it's always clean, along with the probe being active.  I have to order a probe with real numbers so I know what type of temps I'm seeing.


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## Nater (Feb 20, 2012)

Got to play with the stove this weekend and not sure if the cat is bad or operator error, or a little of both .

I've been running the stove pretty much the same way since I got it.  I always loaded on a good bed of coals with stove top of around 200 degrees.  I'll load it from 40% to 70% full, depending on the weather.  I leave the air full open until it starts to get going pretty well, then turn down to about 50% air.  Once the stove gets to about 250 stove top, I'll close it to about 25%.  I used to be able to engage the cat at 250, then wait until it would reach 300+ and close it down to about 10%, and then it continue to climb would cruise around 500+ stove top.  It worked this way for almost a month.

It started lighting off at higher and higher temps, and now it stalls at anything less than a 400+ stove top temp.  The secondaries start kicking in too so I'm not sure if the cat lights off at all.  But the stove top temp falls pretty quick once the secondaries go away.  I was able to check the cat again this weekend and everything looks good and I cleaned it again anyway.  I made sure it had a tight seal on the gasket too.  The screen is also clean.  This morning, after I loaded it up, I let it get to a 350 stove top temp.  I had to leave for work, so I engaged the cat, and slowly closed it down to 10% air.  I left and and when I talked to my wife about an hour later, she said she opened it back up because the stove top temp had dropped to 200!

Does it sound like I am doing something wrong or do you think my cat is bad?  I plan on giving Wood Stock a call today to discuss it with them but thought I would get input here first.


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## HollowHill (Feb 20, 2012)

Nater said:
			
		

> Got to play with the stove this weekend and not sure if the cat is bad or operator error, or a little of both .
> 
> I've been running the stove pretty much the same way since I got it.  I always loaded on a good bed of coals with stove top of around 200 degrees.  I'll load it from 40% to 70% full, depending on the weather.  I leave the air full open until it starts to get going pretty well, then turn down to about 50% air.  Once the stove gets to about 250 stove top, I'll close it to about 25%.  I used to be able to engage the cat at 250, then wait until it would reach 300+ and close it down to about 10%, and then it continue to climb would cruise around 500+ stove top.  It worked this way for almost a month.
> 
> ...



It doesn't sound to me like you are doing anything wrong.  Please let us know what WS says.


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## Treacherous (Feb 20, 2012)

Is this the same steel cat Woodstock mentions using in their wet cordwood burning test?

http://www.woodstove.com/images/editorial_support/PDFs/wetcordwoodtesting1.pdf

"PleaseÂ note:Â weÂ areÂ usingÂ catalyticÂ technologyÂ notÂ availableÂ duringÂ theÂ lastÂ NSPS.Â Â WeÂ areÂ 
usingÂ catalystsÂ madeÂ ofÂ stainlessÂ steelÂ â€œdurafoilâ€.Â Â Â TheÂ thicknessÂ ofÂ theÂ materialÂ isÂ aboutÂ 
0.0025â€Â (2.5/1000),Â andÂ whereÂ itÂ isÂ bondedÂ theÂ maximumÂ thicknessÂ isÂ aboutÂ 0.0075â€.Â Â TheÂ 
thinÂ wallsÂ andÂ highÂ cellÂ densityÂ resultÂ inÂ aÂ hugeÂ surfaceÂ areaÂ toÂ faceÂ areaÂ ratioÂ (meaningÂ 
moreÂ catalyticÂ activity);Â quickerÂ responsivenessÂ atÂ lowÂ temperatures;Â andÂ lessÂ resistanceÂ toÂ 
flow.Â Â ThisÂ hasÂ beenÂ oneÂ ofÂ theÂ bestÂ innovationsÂ inÂ theÂ hearthÂ industryÂ overÂ theÂ lastÂ decade,Â 
butÂ youÂ wouldnâ€™tÂ knowÂ itÂ byÂ talkingÂ toÂ HPBA.Â Â "


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## KevinG (Feb 20, 2012)

Yes, I assume so. The description matches the SS cat I have.

For what it's worth, after cleaning my screen and engaging at higher temps (250-300), I'm back to peaking at 550 again. Unfortunately, with the warm weather we've been having, that high of a temp just makes the stove room unbearable. So we've been aiming for lower and longer burns over the weekend.


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## adamscotera (Feb 20, 2012)

The post about testing wet wood was very interesting. I was assuming that it was the moisture content of my wood that was causing the trouble. I've gone to great lengths and spent lots of time making sure that the burn was well-established before engaging the combustor. From this thread it is looking like a lot of people are getting poor results from their ss cats, which is a crying shame because the ceramic ones are so sensitive to heat (a maladaptive characteristic indeed for a device intended to operate at temperatures from 600-1800 degrees!).
By the way, I spoke too soon in my last post, as I so often do. I thought the combustor was doing its job because of how stable the burn was and the temperatures I had on my stovetop and flue pipe, but when I went outside to get more wood, even though the burn had been cruising along at an ideal level for nearly 2 hours, I could see and smell smoke coming from my chimney. There was probably a little less than there would have been without the combustor, but based on my experience of a couple of months ago I feel pretty sure that when the combustor is passing smoke like that, it will be completely clogged in a couple of days. So I took it out again and spent the day identifying exactly the temperature range and minimum draft required to burn without visible smoke in the absence of the combustor. Stovetop temp needs to be at least 500, and flue temp (measured 1 inch from the back of the stove) needs to be at least 400, with minimum draft setting about 0.8 (which sometimes makes it impossible to keep the flue temp below 450, but that's the price of burning clean without a combustor). If both temps were high enough but I cut the draft to 0.7, some smoke would start to appear as the oxygen supply dropped just a bit too low. This made me speculate that if I could introduce secondary air, I could reduce the primary air and the burn rate without compromising the completeness of the burn, because most of the time I felt that I would like to slow things down a bit but couldn't because of the oxygen requirement. Anybody have any comments on that idea? (which of course is the basic idea behind non-cat stoves, which employ it in a tightly controlled way)
Adam


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## raybonz (Feb 20, 2012)

FWIW ceramic as a material is pretty damn tough stuff! I never shattered a cat in my 23 years of cat use and/or abuse and I suspect those have had other factors that contributed.. The glass on your stove windows is clear ceramic and it never crumbles.. There are better grades of ceramics and it could be that those who have shattered their ceramic cats had a lesser grade ceramic material or possibly a cat that had been struck or perhaps metal expansion which cracked the cat. I worked at a ceramics company for 6 years and I can tell you they are fired in a huge kiln at over 2000 degrees for a long period of time! This company made the ceramics which were used to create hermetically sealed switches used on the cockpit of the space shuttles...

Ray


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## rideau (Feb 20, 2012)

Woodstock had the same idea.  They call it the Progress Hybrid. 
On a serious note:  I agree with your conclusion in your earlier post that wood is best split fairly small in this relatively warm climatic situation for the stove to work ideally.  
Your experiment was interesting.  I'm not sure how you are going to be able to take that information and use it to get  better cat burn?  
Not surprising stovetop temp needs to be 500 because we know firebox temp needs to be 1000 to get secondary burn.  
RE SMOKE DURING CAT BURN}Was the cat just not engaged and your fire smouldering?  If your cat is engaged, no smoke should be coming out the chimney unless you are burning with way too much draft and the cat can't handle everything.  That should not be going on two hours into a burn.  With your stovetop/flue combination temp indicating cat is engaged, seems  smoke is either escaping around your cat following path of least resistance, or you just have your draft way too high and are putting way too much smoke through the cat.  Possibly increasing draft to combat fly ash/smoke  problem only exacerbates it by increasing air/smoke flow, whether problem is obstruction of cat  cells or loose fit of cat.  Have you been in touch with Woodstock about getting a new gasket for the cat?  If not, call and tell them about the burn you describe in your last post.  See what they suggest.
With PH and clean cat/iconal screen, I get a cat burn with no visable smoke with stovetop temperature at 380.  Have not had a comtinuimg problem with the cat clogging, nor have I had any visable smoke.    
Do you have a really strong draft?  I'm wondering why that fly ash is getting things clogged so quickly.  You may be in a revolving door situation:  ash obstructs, increase draft to get more air, draft suctions ash into screen/cat, cat requires more draft, open damper more...til death and cleaning time.  
Mine completely clogged really early, but I have been concentrating on keeping draft fairly low to minimize fly ash (thePH burns very completely and the fly ash is very light), and I have not had a subsequent problem.  Main thing I do is  get the stove up to temp quickly, close draft down quickly thereafter, keep stove top temps moderate-about 400- and draft low.  PH puts out plenty of heat at that setting.  Aim for as low darft as you can to get heat output you need from Fireview.   My Fireview did not burn ash as completely..had a ceramic cat.  Never had to clean that cat...annual clean and never anything in it.  Maybe ss cat burns more like PH?  I always had a lot of ash in my FV box-ash and coals- cleaned about once a week.  Do you have a lot of ash?  Maybe start with cat and screen good and clean and ash level fairly low in firebox, get flue up to temp that indicates to you with your particular pipe that inside temp is 500 (or get IR gun), engage cat at that point and reduce air level to .5 or so if you have a strong draft (or .8 as in your experiment if you want to try that).  It took a long time to get my Fireview to cat temperature...over half an hour.  With the SS cat , I suggest keeping the damper wide open and watching closely until stovepipe temp is OK for cat, then engaging and shutting damper way down right away.  Then see what happens.  I suspect the best thing to do is get the cat engaged as quickly as possible.  My Fireview burned very well with ceramic cat at a low draft level..if it works, maybe try to keep the ash level fairly low...a pain to empty ashes twice a week, but worth it if it keeps the screen/cat from getting clogged.   I'd be trying to ignite as quickly as possible, and burn as low draft as possible to get heat  output I need.  Seems lots of people are not running into clogged cats, and I'd really like to know whether it is those who have a strong draft who have the ash accumulation problem.


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 20, 2012)

Long post, i like your idea regarding the quantity of ash produced in relation to diminishing cat preformance.



Anyone know if the wash of precious metals on a cat can "stick" better to ceramic vs stainless? I get the more cells gets more contact idea, but i would think ceramic would retain the 'wash' of Pt and Pd metals better than an alloy. Unless the alloy contained some of the material. But i figure theres a cost factor with that.


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## Ponderosa Pyro (Feb 20, 2012)

neumsky said:
			
		

> I think this will confirm as to why alot of us are a little reluctant to buy cats because of the unpredictable mood swings these things go thru. Somebody above mentioned that it's like a car....not. This is not complex like a car & run by many people which usually is the error. This should have been tested by this reputable company before sending out & let you guys holding the bag. Listen to me...sorry you guys are going thru this. Honestly...I'd be confused and a little upset. There's alot of guys out there who like cats.




I must admit.I'm having second thoughts about buying the Woodstock PH now.My last stove was a pre EPA model airtight. I thought the hybrid would be the "latest and greatest" My PH will not be shipping until june or later when they figure out the outside air intake kit.Right now it seems Woodstock is using the consumer to test the Progress Hybrid.I'm sure they are/will respond to all problems,but right now I'm not sure I want a stove that is such a pain in the ass to operate.


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## Stump_Branch (Feb 20, 2012)

Ponderosa Pyro said:
			
		

> neumsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Dont they come with a six month money back tryout? Come december you dont like it they take it back. At least i believe that was true with their other models.

Hard to test in the summer.


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## rideau (Feb 21, 2012)

They do come with a six month money back warrantee. 
I've had no trouble except the one time clogging of cat, which took a very short time to fix.  Other than that, just learning.  
This is an entirely new stove design.  Beautiful, very efficient, puts out tons of heat.  By the end of this heating seaason we'll have all figured out the tricks to best burning, and Woodstock will have resolved the minor problems.  This is an incredibly easy stove to operate, and really safe.  Throws out a ton of heat at low temperatures.  We owners are going back and forth about details.  The SS cat issues are not an inherent issue of the PH BUT are being resolved. 

You've got the best of both worlds...you are getting the PH at the discount that compensates for the fact that we are Wooodstock's test group, but you're getting it after the little issues are resolved.  Woodstock made it very clear they were getting these stoves out early at a great price as an incentive so they could get lots of stoves into homes the first heating season and deal with any issues that might arise.  They are retrofittting any changes/upgrades to all existing stoves.  
Woodstock is in one place, one climate, one draft situation, chimney configuration, type of wood, burning habits etc.  By getting these out to lots of us once the engineering was finished, they are able to quickly see how the stove performs in different situations.  I'd say pretty marvelously.  I very much doubt you'll find anyone who has a PH and is willing to go back to their previous stove.  

Actually, you probably don't have the best of all worlds, because we got an extra burning season out of these stoves, and life is short...

Only way you could pay me to give you this stove would be to pay me double--then I'd go buy two new ones...one to use and one to have for anything I might want to build in the future, or as a gift for one of my children or siblings....I've been really tempted to buy a  second stove at the great price as an investment.  

I love this stove.


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## Waulie (Feb 21, 2012)

Ponderosa Pyro said:
			
		

> neumsky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Worry not, PP!  You will not regret the purchase.  The few issues that have popped up have been adressed.  The only outstanding issue that I am aware of is the cat issue and Woodstock is working hard at determining the problem.  I'm sure they'll have it figured out by next season.  The Progress is a wonderful and very simple stove.  A lot of what you're reading is just folks trying to tweak their burning techniques to get the best performance.  But really, load it up, dial it in, and be warm for a long, long, time.  That's all you have to do.

Besides for my cat becoming less sensitive (which again I'm sure will be fixed soon), the only complaint I have is the screen.  Mine blocked with ash after a month and I had some issues getting it back in place.  Interestingly, I just looked at it tonight (it is visible through the front glass) and it is completely clear.  It has been another month since I cleaned it.  When it clogged last time it seemed very sudden.  The stove was working great then all of a sudden, I didn't have much draft.  I don't know what did it but I believe that is something else that will be determined soon with all the people now using the stove.

For the beauty and function (this stove really does heat!!) and buying from a great company that you can be sure will do everything possible to solve any issue you might have, I can't imagine a better deal.  The introductory price is fantastic and you get a 6 month guarantee!

My only caution would be underestimating how much heat the stove throws.  If you have a small stove room, it just might be too much stove.  Other than that, I'd recommend it 100%.


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## chipsoflyin (Feb 21, 2012)

Ill second that waulie, what a great stove, my heat pump hasn't run since the install, the heat is long and even, I would love to get a ceramic cat for this stove just to compare, I'm going to pull the dimensions and see if anything is available off the shelf


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## timusp40 (Feb 21, 2012)

This is probably not going to sit very well, but so be it. My last post was less than a week ago when 80 messages had been posted to the origional thread. Now 6 days later, 217 posts from all over the country and a lot of opinions about how to "DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS", but no difinative solutions. I value the information that one gets here for a simple reason. Real life situations ( I hope not solisatations) from all you out there that want the best performance that you can get out of your stove for the hard earned bucks that you put into it. Seems to me that the Progress and certain SS cats are being test driven right now. The results are all over the map! One thing that keeps hammering back home to me is that for years and years a Woodstock Fireview with a ceramic cat was without a doubt a tried and true sucess.
Tim


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## Todd (Feb 21, 2012)

Stump_Branch said:
			
		

> Anyone know if the wash of precious metals on a cat can "stick" better to ceramic vs stainless? I get the more cells gets more contact idea, but i would think ceramic would retain the 'wash' of Pt and Pd metals better than an alloy. Unless the alloy contained some of the material. But i figure theres a cost factor with that.



I have heard this before from a couple different sources in the industry that the wash coat sticks better to the ceramic than steel.


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## Todd (Feb 21, 2012)

timusp40 said:
			
		

> This is probably not going to sit very well, but so be it. My last post was less than a week ago when 80 messages had been posted to the origional thread. Now 6 days later, 217 posts from all over the country and a lot of opinions about how to "DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS", but no difinative solutions. I value the information that one gets here for a simple reason. Real life situations ( I hope not solisatations) from all you out there that want the best performance that you can get out of your stove for the hard earned bucks that you put into it. Seems to me that the Progress and certain SS cats are being test driven right now. The results are all over the map! One thing that keeps hammering back home to me is that for years and years a Woodstock Fireview with a ceramic cat was without a doubt a tried and true sucess.
> Tim



Here's the solution. If your not happy with the ss cat, Woodstock will replace it with a ceramic cat. I got this straight from the owner.


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## rdust (Feb 21, 2012)

timusp40 said:
			
		

> Seems to me that the Progress and certain SS cats are being test driven right now. The results are all over the map!
> Tim



You'll get results all over the place comparing any stove.  No two installs are the same, different chimneys, wood supply, operating style, climate, altitude, house size etc.

We're just about neighbors Tim, I'm between Oxford and Romeo...........


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## adamscotera (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions.
My impression is that the most significant advantage a catalytic combustor can offer is that it can burn cleanly and efficiently at a low burn rate, whereas non-cat stoves may require a little more primary air and a hotter, faster burn in general. The burn I was referring to in my last post was at 0 damper level. I do notice a bit of an air leak in one of the corners, so the fire wasn't starved, but it was moving very slowly and making lots of yummy smoke for the catalyst to feed on, but it didn't have the appetite. If the combustor is not going to work in this situation, it is not doing what it is supposed to do.
Now, I'm feeling like cat stoves are best suited to doing something that isn't exactly what I want my stove to do- namely, burning for a long time without getting very hot. I'm trying to heat my house from the basement and usually want the stove to be quite hot. However, before anyone suggests that that is why my cat is failing, let me remind anyone who has forgotten that nearly all the components of wood smoke burn at 1100 degrees or below, and the recommended temperature range of a catalytic combustor, over the long term, is 600-1500 degrees, with no problems expected if it occasionally hits 1800 degrees. According to Woodstock's website and manuals, the temperature reading on top of the stove is about twice the temperature in the firebox, so 1500 degrees on the combustor would mean 750 on the stovetop. If the information available is accurate, you should be able to run a temp of 750 on top of the stove all the time without risking any damage to your catalyst. My stove has seen temps like that, but rarely.
This is a heating device, and it should not fail if the heat occasionally is a little extra-intense. So that can't be it. And I am always trying to find the lowest draft setting that will not make the fire go out. So that can't be it. It has to be the device itself.
Adam


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## rdust (Feb 21, 2012)

Adam, can you add your stove to your signature so all of us know what stove you have?  I'm figuring it's a fireview but I may be wrong?


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## scotsman (Feb 21, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> timusp40 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Todd--I asked about a ceramic cat for the PH and was told (not by the owner, but by a trusted employee) that there isn't one for it. Were you talking about the PH or something else? I would like to have the ceramic, because, having had both, for me the ceramic is more productive--i.e. more heat. My FV ran higher temps for longer than the PH has been able to muster so far. The PH running a ceramic cat seems like the best of both worlds. Thanks--


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## rideau (Feb 21, 2012)

Adam,You do have a Fireview?  I had one 7 years, have a great draft, never burned it at 0 = that always snuffed the fire out right away.  If you  are able to burn with a Fireview at 0,  I think you must have an air leak. At this point , I'd be worrying about your stove, not the catalyst, which after all is easily replaced at a reasonable expense. Talk with Woodstock about the catalyst/  Woodstock's stoves are designed to be run routinely at 400-600, with a safe range being 250-700.  750 is considered overfired by Woodstock.  Woodstock specifically cautions not to overfire the stove as repeated overfiring will harm the stove.  They also strongly recommend against basement installations of Woodstock stoves, and state one should not expect satisfactory heating of a home from a basement installation.  There are folks who nevertheless seem to have success with basement installation.   Don't know how big your home is, but I wouldn't expect a Fireview in the basement to heat a good sized home.  A Progress Hybrid would be more likely to if you really want a Woodstock.  It puts out a great deal more heat.  When did you get your Fireview?  What is your floorplan and how freely does air exit your basement? You might talk with Woodstock.  If the situation isn't right for you and you've had the stove less than six months, I believe you can return it for any reason whatsoever if it is not satisfactory for your purpose.  Alternatively, you might be able to switch a Fireview out for a Progress Hybrid at a very reasonable rate' PH would deliver a great deal more heat.  If you are dealing with a relatively new Fireview, Woodstock is in a position to resell it as a used unit for a decent amount.  I'd also talk with Woodstock about those high temperatures.  I believe there are reasons related to the cast iron oxidizing that should keep you burning at lower temperatures than 750. Finally, I have Excel double wall pipe...really good pipe...and Excel cautions against burning on any regular basis with flue temperatures  above 600.  I am of the opinion that it is incorrect to assume that a device should not fail if it is "occasionally" run outside its designed maximum.  A few time in its life cycle , if not TOO much overfired probably minimal damage.  A few times in a year, probably bad news long term for any stove or other heating device.  Lastly, if you go over with Wooodstock your specific floorplan and what you are trying to accomplish , they'll give you good advice about whether their PH will likely be satisfactory for you, as well as whether you are likely fighting a losing battle with a Fireview. You may be outside its design parameters. Good luck.  Hope you can get things resolved.  i have found my Woodstock's to be great stoves which have contributed to my enjoyment of life.


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## rideau (Feb 21, 2012)

Terry, are you saying your Fireview put out more heat than your PH is?  Or just that the stovetop temp was higher on the Fireview than it is on the PH?


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## Todd (Feb 21, 2012)

Texas boy said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know about the PH? Maybe Tom was just talking about their other stoves? I know he sent me a ceramic cat for my keystone and now both of my stoves will have ceramic cats with the new ss scoops.

If Woodstock doesn't have ceramic cats for the PH you could always purchase one from Applied Ceramics and keep that steel one for a spare.


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## adamscotera (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi Rideau,
I do have an air leak, but it's pretty minimal. I plan on patching it with cement when the weather is warmer. I'm not having a problem with controlling the draft- I have no trouble getting the burn rate too low. The problem I'm having is getting my combustor to burn the smoke, even when the stovetop is at 550 for an extended amount of time, and the only time I ever see 600 on my flue is when I've left the damper open a little too long on start-up. Burn range I'm using is 400-450 on the flue, and if the combustor would work, I could get that down to 325.
I think you're right that a PH would suit my needs a lot better. When we bought the Fireview in 2010, it was the biggest stove they were offering (tied with the Classic for firebox size and heat output, but apparently surpassing it in efficiency). If the PH had existed then, we would have bought it. Do you really think Woodstock would be able and willing to help us change it out? Seems like somebody would have to spend a lot on labor and transport costs, and there's the difference in price.
Guess there's only one way to find out..


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## rideau (Feb 21, 2012)

Hello, Adam:
I'm sending you a private message.  (PM)


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 21, 2012)

Adam, with the air leak it is very possible you might not get the higher stove top temperatures. However, you will get more heat from the sides of the stove with more flame in the firebox. Overall, you may not get more heat if you keep the flames down and run a higher stove top temperature. I know Todd has done some experimenting with this and we have too. Occasionally I'll get out the IR gun just for a reminder of where the most heat comes from. 

No doubt you will notice a big difference when you get that leak repaired. Good luck. 

Oh, btw, with only 4 splits last night we got our Fireview at 700+ degree stove top. Yes, we corrected that right away.


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## adamscotera (Feb 22, 2012)

so for clarification, when I mentioned running a stove at 750 all the time without any consequences, I meant for the steel combustor unit, not the iron components of the stove. I do believe that iron will degrade a lot faster when exposed to 1500 degree temperatures on a regular basis for a long time. But the stainless steel combustor should be unaffected by such temperatures even if they happen all the time, which they don't. However, even if you run those temps all the time, it seems to me that it should only mean that you will need to replace your scoop and combustor pan in twenty years instead of forty. The body of the stove should not be in peril, as the most intense heat is not directly impacting the cast iron frame and the stone can certainly handle higher temps. If you get an air leak (as I have), you just need to patch it with better cement. Rutland Chimney Sweep cement is rated at a max temp of 2700 degrees. Surely that means it won't crack if the firebox occasionally touches 1700 or 1800.
Adam


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## scotsman (Feb 22, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> Terry, are you saying your Fireview put out more heat than your PH is?  Or just that the stovetop temp was higher on the Fireview than it is on the PH?



Lynda and I have talked about it several times and we both think that we got both higher top temps faster and more total heat output from the FV than with the PH. The FV definitely did not have the capacity to heat our house without constant re-loading, BUT even though it didn't burn as long, it did put out more total heat per burn than the PH--and that is with the identical wood and loads. We have achieved nearly 500 degree top temps with the PH, after some difficulties were ironed out, but the FV would go to 600 and beyond every time, and quickly, if allowed, which is something the PH has not done on it's best burn.

Still trying to figure this out.


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## Buck1200 (Feb 22, 2012)

I had the PH at 680 stove top the other night.  That was with a 'dark box' cat burn with a full load of 2 year old maple and beech, and falling temps outside.  The thing is, the stove puts out more heat faster when you don't do that.  To get the most heat you need to leave the air open to about 1/4 and let the secondaries burn.  Then the sides and front heat up, and not just the top.  This is what I've found anyway.  

I've also found, now that I have a thermocouple on the outlet of the cat, that I have to leave the air open about 1/2 way for the first half hour or so after closing the bypass or the cat stalls.  If I leave it open, it stays hot, and the stovetop temp comes up nicely to the mid 400's as usual.  What it does after that is dependent on how much wood I put in, and how much I shut it down thereafter.  Lot's of wood with a closed air supply and I've seen cat discharge temps hit 1500, though they usually sit around 1100.  With secondaries burning, the cat temp will fluctuate from 750ish to 900 or so until down to coals.

I have some more thermocouples coming which I intend to use to fully characterize this cat.  WS sent me a new combustor which I'll switch in once I get my test setup dialed in.


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## Slow1 (Feb 22, 2012)

adamscotera said:
			
		

> so for clarification, when I mentioned running a stove at 750 all the time without any consequences, I meant for the steel combustor unit, not the iron components of the stove. I do believe that iron will degrade a lot faster when exposed to 1500 degree temperatures on a regular basis for a long time. But the stainless steel combustor should be unaffected by such temperatures even if they happen all the time, which they don't. However, even if you run those temps all the time, it seems to me that it should only mean that you will need to replace your scoop and combustor pan in twenty years instead of forty. The body of the stove should not be in peril, as the most intense heat is not directly impacting the cast iron frame and the stone can certainly handle higher temps. If you get an air leak (as I have), you just need to patch it with better cement. Rutland Chimney Sweep cement is rated at a max temp of 2700 degrees. Surely that means it won't crack if the firebox occasionally touches 1700 or 1800.
> Adam



There are a lot of cast pieces inside there right around the combustor that I would be concerned with - the entire metal section dividing the top and bottom of the stove is cast I do believe... so there are parts that may not like being exposed to the extreme temperatures.  All in all, I would generally advise taking the WS recommendations of avoiding running over 700 surface temp any more than the occasional "oops" dictates.  As Dennis mentioned though - if you run with more flame in the box generally the surface temps don't run as high and you get more total heat from the stove since the sides and lower stove as a whole heat up more.  

I do believe that in most cases the only way to sustain those very high surface temperatures is to have it burning a lot more smoke on a very hot bed of coals with good draft.

Each to their own though of course.  I do believe that the FV is a well built stove and that they have engineered sufficient strength into the parts to put up with quite a bit of abuse so I imagine it would take quite a while of abusing it before you would see the affects, but I'm sure eventually the damage would show...


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## fire_man (Feb 22, 2012)

buck1200 said:
			
		

> I had the PH at 680 stove top the other night.  That was with a 'dark box' cat burn with a full load of 2 year old maple and beech, and falling temps outside.  The thing is, the stove puts out more heat faster when you don't do that.  To get the most heat you need to leave the air open to about 1/4 and let the secondaries burn.  Then the sides and front heat up, and not just the top.  This is what I've found anyway.
> 
> I've also found, now that I have a thermocouple on the outlet of the cat, that I have to leave the air open about 1/2 way for the first half hour or so after closing the bypass or the cat stalls.  If I leave it open, it stays hot, and the stovetop temp comes up nicely to the mid 400's as usual.  What it does after that is dependent on how much wood I put in, and how much I shut it down thereafter.  Lot's of wood with a closed air supply and I've seen cat discharge temps hit 1500, though they usually sit around 1100.  With secondaries burning, the cat temp will fluctuate from 750ish to 900 or so until down to coals.
> 
> I have some more thermocouples coming which I intend to use to fully characterize this cat.  WS sent me a new combustor which I'll switch in once I get my test setup dialed in.



buck1200: I have the same story: the stove needs more air after engaging or the cat stalls. I don't have thermocouples, but I can tell the cat is stalled from the heavy outside smoke trail and the steady 300F stovetop temp until I open up the air.

This is not how the stove operated  earlier this season, under similar outdoor temperatures. Stovetop temps used to take right off after engaging and immediatlely dialing back to zero air setting. It would be good to get some feedback from you once you get all those thermocouples set up - better yet both with the old and new combustor.


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## Todd (Feb 22, 2012)

buck1200 said:
			
		

> I had the PH at 680 stove top the other night.  That was with a 'dark box' cat burn with a full load of 2 year old maple and beech, and falling temps outside.  The thing is, the stove puts out more heat faster when you don't do that.  To get the most heat you need to leave the air open to about 1/4 and let the secondaries burn.  Then the sides and front heat up, and not just the top.  This is what I've found anyway.
> 
> I've also found, now that I have a thermocouple on the outlet of the cat, that I have to leave the air open about 1/2 way for the first half hour or so after closing the bypass or the cat stalls.  If I leave it open, it stays hot, and the stovetop temp comes up nicely to the mid 400's as usual.  What it does after that is dependent on how much wood I put in, and how much I shut it down thereafter.  Lot's of wood with a closed air supply and I've seen cat discharge temps hit 1500, though they usually sit around 1100.  With secondaries burning, the cat temp will fluctuate from 750ish to 900 or so until down to coals.
> 
> I have some more thermocouples coming which I intend to use to fully characterize this cat.  WS sent me a new combustor which I'll switch in once I get my test setup dialed in.



This is interesting. Have you monitored cat light off temps? Will it light off at 400 degrees like advertised? When I was monitoring my cat temps at the beginning of the season I could get the steel cat to light off at lower 400-500 temps and not have to worry about giving it more air to keep it going but as the season went on that changed and it took higher temps and more air.

I think you PH guys and gals could really benefit from some kind of cat probe since you can't see your cat like I can. You can somewhat tell what's going on with the cat by stove top temps but they lag way behind what the info from a probe would give.

Could you give us all some more info on your thermocouples and some pictures of how it's installed?


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## fire_man (Feb 22, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> buck1200 said:
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Darn, there is a definite trend going on here. More air, higher light of temps, I just hope WS can duplicate this. I don't think this is correlated highly to the outside temps. I have noticed the sluggish SS cat response in temps near 30F. Todd, I think you must have set a record with this thread topic for most views.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 22, 2012)

I called WS yesterday. My new SS cat is on the way and my old one will be donated to science. I may have to get my chimney cleaned this spring, too much smokey burning. I was hoping to go three years, but the cap is very blackened now. I can't get  up there for a closer look.


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## Flamestead (Feb 23, 2012)

Here's a upstream and downstream view of my PH cat before the first cleaning, after burning 1.2 (real) cords of mostly Red Maple (css in 2010). No discoloration, quite a bit of fine ash, and there was a noticable decrease in airflow when the bypass was closed.

Been burning much of the time at 1/8 open damper. Cat is working fine (closed it down for a black box yesterday evening for a while, cruised at 500). We've been needing the heat from the secondaries, so don't have a lot of experience trying for the long, low temp burns.


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## HotCoals (Feb 23, 2012)

Looks like a good size cat.


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## ddddddden (Feb 23, 2012)

Yeah, maybe it's a distortion of scale, but that cat looks a lot larger than in the original design drawings.  Looks like at least 3x the surface area of the Fireview cat, which is interesting since the Progress holds only ~ 1.5x the amount of wood(2.7 vs 1.8 cu ft AFAIK), and the cat doesn't have to work much at higher burn rates in the Progress. I guess the cross section would have to be large enough to allow for sufficient exhaust flow even if there's not much to burn in the exhaust, but it also looks a lot thicker than the Fireview cat.  Maybe they oversized it to promote longevity.   Got a tape measure?


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## rideau (Feb 23, 2012)

This cat is much longer but much narrower.  Runs the entire available length under stovetop at the back of the stove.


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## Todd (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm courious about that gasket that's wrapped around the PH cat, is it the same gasket as the other stoves? Do you have to replace it every time you remove the cat to clean? I know my gaskets are very fragile and break or fall apart if you take the cat out of the housing, maybe this is a different gasket?


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## scotsman (Feb 24, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> I'm courious about that gasket that's wrapped around the PH cat, is it the same gasket as the other stoves? Do you have to replace it every time you remove the cat to clean? I know my gaskets are very fragile and break or fall apart if you take the cat out of the housing, maybe this is a different gasket?



Todd--The cat gasket is not wrapped around the cat. It's what I'd call a face contact gasket. The cat slides toward and rests against the gasket at the end of the housing. The entire perimeter of the cat is in contact with the gasket. The cat is at about a 10 degree angle down and toward the back. The cat is not held against the gasket and has a fair amount of wiggle inside the housing. WS sent me a black 1/8" gasket to push into the gap at the top and sides, which would actually cause less contact with the top half of the gasket in the back. So, that gasket is now installed underneath and up both sides, while the gasket that held the stainless heat shield now seals the top and down both sides. The cat is now quite secure with (IMO) no possibility of blow-by because it is now in full contact with the gasket it rests against AND all sides are now sealed completely with additional gasket material all around. The gasket that held the shield has been replaced by a length of 3/8" gasket material, which actually fits more snugly and holds better, again, IMO.

The gasket does not appear to be fragile in anyway and appears to be the same size and type as the door gasket and tucked into it's groove. It would not appear to be susceptible to any kind of damage.

Oh, almost forgot--a new s/s cat arrived today and is now installed along with the gaskets described above.


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## fire_man (Feb 24, 2012)

Texas boy said:
			
		

> Todd said:
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Terry: Please let us know how the new SS cat works - hopefully you will get some higher stovetop temps, closer to what you got with the Fireview. I got a replacement cat as well, still playing with the old one, about to try the new one soon so I can send the old one back to WS. I just can't get this thing much over 450F.


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## scotsman (Feb 24, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> Texas boy said:
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Sure will. The new cat is in and the old one is already packed to send back. If the problems are from blow-by, I have eliminated that possibility. Now all I need is some cold weather to put it to the test. Tomorrow I will check out the stove and re-check all the gaskets and hopefully we'll have a fire tomorrow evening. I'm hoping to see some 600-700 level temps and will be interested to see if I can still get 'em 30 and 45 days from now IF we still have cold weather. Y'know the groundhog DID see his shadow, so I'm hoping for the best.


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## HollowHill (Feb 24, 2012)

Terry,  I'm not sure you should be aiming for 600-700 temps with this stove, thinking of it like the Fireview.  This is a different stove.  It is constructed very differently, I believe, - the top is thicker as well as the cat pointing to the front instead of the top of the stove.  Those 600-700 stove top temps may be a rare occurrence with this stove.  The secondaries kick in before that happens and then the heat is "redirected" to the firebox instead of the stove top, if you catch my drift.  I've gotten the stove up to 580 on occasion, but that's as high as its gone.  I, too, was a bit disappointed at first when I wasn't getting the higher stove top temps, because that's what's talked about here a lot.  But then, it slowly dawned on me that I was heating my house with the lower stove top temps.  In other words, I was getting the heat, just not the high stove top temps.  I'm wondering if Progress owners need to get their temp from somewhere other than the stove top to really judge how the stove is doing.



			
				Texas boy said:
			
		

> fire_man said:
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## scotsman (Feb 24, 2012)

HollowHill said:
			
		

> Terry,  I'm not sure you should be aiming for 600-700 temps with this stove, thinking of it like the Fireview.  This is a different stove.  It is constructed very differently, I believe, - the top is thicker as well as the cat pointing to the front instead of the top of the stove.  Those 600-700 stove top temps may be a rare occurrence with this stove.  The secondaries kick in before that happens and then the heat is "redirected" to the firebox instead of the stove top, if you catch my drift.  I've gotten the stove up to 580 on occasion, but that's as high as its gone.  I, too, was a bit disappointed at first when I wasn't getting the higher stove top temps, because that's what's talked about here a lot.  But then, it slowly dawned on me that I was heating my house with the lower stove top temps.  In other words, I was getting the heat, just not the high stove top temps.  I'm wondering if Progress owners need to get their temp from somewhere other than the stove top to really judge how the stove is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



HH-Your point is well made, but I'm not operating from or referring to top temps. Ron weaned me away from that to the flue temp coming out the back of my stove. I have found that to be far more indicative of the "true" sense of things going on in the stove. I've begun to engage the cat based upon the flue temp, as he says, rather than the top temp, which lags far behind. Operating based on the flue temp seems far more reliable. So, I suppose I should be more careful about the location temp I'm using, since lots of folks use the top temp as a sort of standard. When I was discussing the amount of heat obtained from the FV compared to the PH, I was disregarding the operational differences and using the "how much heat are we getting in the house" approach, which takes the technical stuff out of the equation.


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## Todd (Feb 24, 2012)

Just wanted to let everyone know I received my new ceramic cat from Woodstock on Wednesday and sent the green colored steel cat back to them for testing. The new cat is definitely more active than the old steel, hotter temps for longer. I'm sure like most other new cats whether steel or ceramic it will be hypersensitive for the first week or so then settle in for the long haul but it's nice to see it light off so quickly and stove top up to where they should be.

I hope Woodstock comes back soon with some testing info on these steel cats before this thread dies but if it does I will revive it.


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## HollowHill (Feb 24, 2012)

Todd said:
			
		

> Just wanted to let everyone know I received my new ceramic cat from Woodstock on Wednesday and sent the green colored steel cat back to them for testing. The new cat is definitely more active than the old steel, hotter temps for longer. I'm sure like most other new cats whether steel or ceramic it will be hypersensitive for the first week or so then settle in for the long haul but it's nice to see it light off so quickly and stove top up to where they should be.
> 
> I hope Woodstock comes back soon with some testing info on these steel cats before this thread dies but if it does I will revive it.



Thanks, Todd, we'd sure be interested to hear what you find out.  I also have a new cat, SS, and sent my old one back.  Will update this thread if I hear anything back on mine.  The new one sure has behaved differently than my old one so far (about a week of use).  Lights off easily and temps climb nicely, although that is leveling out, maybe due to it getting broken in.


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## HollowHill (Feb 24, 2012)

Terry, sorry, I misunderstood  :red:  I'll be most interested to hear how you make out.  I'm a newbie with no experience, so I really appreciate hearing about everyone's experiences.  I'm not getting the burn times or heating my house as well as the more experienced people are.  Probably due to my inexperience, so everything I can glean from others is of tremendous help.


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## scotsman (Feb 24, 2012)

HollowHill said:
			
		

> Terry, sorry, I misunderstood  :red:  I'll be most interested to hear how you make out.  I'm a newbie with no experience, so I really appreciate hearing about everyone's experiences.  I'm not getting the burn times or heating my house as well as the more experienced people are.  Probably due to my inexperience, so everything I can glean from others is of tremendous help.



HH--No apology needed. I'm new to this, too. I AM glad I had the FV experience as a basis for comparison, but my overall experience is limited. The people on Hearth have been a gold mine of useful information (as well as good-natured "harassment" for my errors) and I am constantly picking up information that I can use to gain the most from the stove. I am confident that the PH will ultimately produce as much and probably more heat than our FV did. It's just a matter of time and whether I can avoid "reverse operation" syndrome in the meantime!!  :roll:


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## fire_man (Feb 24, 2012)

Texas boy said:
			
		

> HollowHill said:
> 
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Terry: You certainly have a "Texas sized" sense of humor to put up with us. I look forward to your posts, and I can hear your Texas accent clearly.

I just put my new SS cat in this morning. It lit right off at stovetop 250 - the best part is there are no longer any black clouds coming from the flue at these lower stovetop temps. I knew something was very wrong one day when the stovetop temp was stuck at 300F, and I could see huge dark clouds of smoke outside my window when the cat was engaged. If that's not the sign of a stalled cat, I don't know what is.

Regarding something HH said about low stovetop temps with the Progress, I know Ciccio is consistently getting stovetop temps over 500F, even over 600F, but he is engaging at 400F stovetop still using his original cat.I just have a hard time forcing myself to let the stove get that hot before engaging, I feel like I am wasting wood to heat the stove, but his reported burn times are still excellent. Time will tell how well this new cat works, but so far it lit off good, with no black smoke. I just wish it were colder out to really test it out - it's not loaded even half way today.


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## 3fordasho (Feb 24, 2012)

[quote author="fire_man" date="I just put my new SS cat in this morning. It lit right off at stovetop 250 - the best part is there are no longer any black clouds coming from the flue at these lower stovetop temps. I knew something was very wrong one day when the stovetop temp was stuck at 300F, and I could see huge dark clouds of smoke outside my window when the cat was engaged. If that's not the sign of a stalled cat, I don't know what is.

[/quote]


Sounds exactly like my PH experience recently and this morning.  Reloaded at 225f stove top with 4-5 medium sized splits, after 20mns or so and 250f+ top temps I engaged the cat and cut back the draft to just slightly open.   Had to leave for 45mn-1 hour, came back and the stove is only at 300F and smoking out the stack.  At this point I had to leave for work so I left things as they were as the flame action in the box was fairly active and the flue temp was at 400f.     As far as I know it was still smoking when I left but hard to tell if it was smoke or steam in the early morning light.  I was suprised by the low 300F stove top temp a good hour after a reload.

My recent experience with overnight burns:   load the stove about 75% full at 9pm,  work the draft down to just cracked above open after the wood is well charred.    (I would close the draft all the way but that results in smoke smell in the house which I would like to avoid).   at 5am the stove has been only at 200-225F stove top temp and enough coals to restart but I would have had more in the fireview, (as well as higher top temps in the fireview)  Now the house is plenty warm, probably warmer then with the fireview but outside temps are higher also.   Wood supply is very well seasoned elm and ash, same wood the fireview was fed just before I removed it to install the PH.    I do recall some of the first burns resulted in a good 300f top temp at the 8 hr mark but that seems to have tapered quickly to what I have now. 

The stove was installed on Feb 1st and has gone cold a couple times due to the cat screens falling out or coming out of position (at least I seem to have that solved) or I've been burning the fireview in the backroom only because of warm temps.

Now don't get me  wrong I love lots of things about the PH, but I really would like to see longer burns, (I'd be happy to have 300F top temps and lots of hot coals after 8 hrs), solve the smoke smell in the house with draft closed, and fix the stalling cat issue.   FWIW I've notice the same SS cat issue in the fireview - easy to stall, sometimes must bypass to up flue temps and re-engage.


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## fire_man (Feb 24, 2012)

I also definitely noticed reduced stovetop temperatures after a 9 hour overnight burn relative to when the SS cat was brand new. The first few Progress fires resulted in 300F + stovetop temps 9 hours after loading 3/4 full. After the first Month or so, morning stovetop temps were dropping close to 200F. I have notified WS that I question if the SS cat is remaining "active" on the downward part of the burn cycle for as long as it should.There are plenty of overnight coals left for the cat to feed on, but the older cat seemed asleep.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 24, 2012)

HollowHill said:
			
		

> Terry,  I'm not sure you should be aiming for 600-700 temps with this stove, thinking of it like the Fireview.  This is a different stove.  It is constructed very differently, I believe, - the top is thicker as well as the cat pointing to the front instead of the top of the stove.  Those 600-700 stove top temps may be a rare occurrence with this stove.  The secondaries kick in before that happens and then the heat is "redirected" to the firebox instead of the stove top, if you catch my drift.  I've gotten the stove up to 580 on occasion, but that's as high as its gone.  I, too, was a bit disappointed at first when I wasn't getting the higher stove top temps, because that's what's talked about here a lot.  But then, it slowly dawned on me that I was heating my house with the lower stove top temps.  In other words, I was getting the heat, just not the high stove top temps.  I'm wondering if Progress owners need to get their temp from somewhere other than the stove top to really judge how the stove is doing.



The Progress is indeed a different stove but I see no good reason why you can't run the stove top up to 600+ degrees. That thing would surely throw some serious heat for sure but I can't see where it would do any harm. But in the end, it all depends upon how much heat you need. If you get enough heat with a 500 degree stove, then by all means run it at that temperature. But what about those below zero nights with a howling wind? I'd think you would indeed then run that stove at 600 degrees or higher. That stove is built to take those temperatures.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 24, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> Texas boy said:
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Tony, you shocked me with that statement (in bold). For sure you will have to run the stove a bit longer to get that higher temperature but I'm betting in the end you would be talking only a few minutes difference in burn time; not even enough to notice if it weren't timed. In addition, if the stove does operate better using those temperatures for engaging, then I could see no good reason to not at least try it and if it works, that's Great! That is what I would do. It is sort of like owning a work horse. Sometimes you have to let these stoves work and then they will perform better.


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## scotsman (Feb 24, 2012)

fire_man said:
			
		

> Texas boy said:
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Well, Tony, it's like this--in my family y'had t'be able to take some sandpaperin' without haulin' off and gittin' mad (aka "flyin' off th' handle), 'cause in our bunch, if they didn't LIKE you, they'd leave y'plumb alone! So, when ever'thin' is saucered and blowed, y'better have uh sense o' humor or y'won't survive long hereabouts. Furthermore, we take th' attitude that you're a friend 'til y'prove y'ain't, not th'other way round! As for the "accent"? I really don't have one!  ;-) 

After examining the cat/housing relationship, I decided to try this:

The black 1/8" gasket that Ron wanted me to put on the top and sides was put under the cat and up the sides to the larger gap on each side, where it was tucked in. Then the 1/4" gasket that retains the shield was used on the top and both sides, into the same gaps and tucked in. Both got tucked in about 1/4" into the housing all the way around and completely sealed.

The logic: With the cat properly seated against the cat gasket, there was a small gap at the bottom between the cat and the housing. It appeared that tucking the gasket only on the top would have forced the cat downward into this gap and more away from its back gasket seal on the top. Since there was quite a bit of wiggle room along the topside, lifting the cat just a touch to put the black gasket in was no challenge. Then with the cat properly aligned from the bottom support the black gasket provided, I pressed down on the cat and installed the shield gasket into the top gap and tucked it into both sides as was done with the black one. Once the top gasket was installed, I carefully pushed the cat back into the gasket (by hand) to make sure it was in contact all around the perimeter. It seemed to be properly aligned and seated in the back gasket all around.

Then, after re-installing the shield, I used 3/8" gasket material in the shield retaining groove.

So, the new cat is now installed and essentially double sealed tightly into its housing.

I ran this all by Ron and he approved. So, now I'm lighting the stove this afternoon to get it ready for the test tonight. I intend to burn two loads and then check to see if the cat is still seated. So, with blow-by eliminated, it should be all cat performance. At the moment we're a buck and a quarter in and I've got flue temp of 425 and top temp of 350 at 25% intake and 100% open damper--cat engaged. So, now we wait . . . 

You got any thoughts on the procedure? I'm just tryin' it. Might work, might not, but don't see why not at this point.


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## Waulie (Feb 25, 2012)

What a great thread!

I thought I should chime in with my current Progress experiences.  I've been burning for 2 months and I burned somewhere shy of a cord.

My cat is definately not as sensitive as it was when new.  It also isn't as sensitive as it was after a month.  So far, though I think it's leveled off.  And I'm still really liking it's performance.  I generally engage at 300 stove top instead of 250 like I had been and the cat always lights and doesn't stall.  I usually reload between 200 and 250. 

Hollow Hill's post regarding stove top temps is right on.  I can easily get the top temps to 550+ with a 3/4 load if I turn it low early and let the cat do the work.  I can load it full and leave the draft a quarter open to where the firebox look's like hell itself (but a very beautiful looking kind of hell), and the top might peak at 520.  I get exponentally more heat from the stove in the second scenario.  I think the slanted baffle really sends the heat right through the large window creating some fast and strong heat transfer.  

My burn times are still fantastic.  With a 3/4 or more load I can easily have top temps still at 300 or higher after 9 hours.  Then, the stove will stay between 250 and 300 at least 3 more hours.  We usually burn one load like that at night and then two small loads during the day.  But if we're both out during the day, two loads a day works fine.  Granted, the outside temps have also been very steady and not exactly frigid for quite some time.  

I'm really curious when we start to get the info from all the cat testing.  When  the cat is working, this really is one heck of a stove.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 25, 2012)

My new SS car arrived yesterday. When I took the old one out of the holder (remember Fireview here) all this metallic powder fell out all over the place. It looked like gold metalflake. I packed up the old one to return it to WS and included the old gasket material with some of that powder on it. The cat is sitting right side up.


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## Todd (Feb 25, 2012)

I had some of that metallic powder as well but is was more silver looking. The gasket pretty much disintegrated in my hands when I pulled the cat out. I wonder if this gasket should be replaced more often?


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## Flatbedford (Feb 25, 2012)

My gasket held somewhat together, but it had been replaced around New Year's, I think. I stuffed some of the pieces in with the new gasket to keep it tight.


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## jdonna (Feb 25, 2012)

I noticed the same thing as well.  Seems like it is the ferrous part of the gasket coming off of it.


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## jdonna (Feb 25, 2012)

Here is a good read about cat gaskets.

http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/Gasket_Details.html


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## Flatbedford (Feb 25, 2012)

jdonna said:
			
		

> Here is a good read about cat gaskets.
> 
> http://www.woodstovecombustors.com/Gasket_Details.html



That explains my flakes. Thanks.


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## rideau (Feb 25, 2012)

So:  I read that, at Condor's site.  They claim their "Steelcat" combuster cuts fly ash, improves flow of flue gasses and reduces cleaning intervals.  Also, lights off 100 degrees lower than ceramic.  Sort of the opposite of what a lot of people are experiencing with the Fireview and PH ss cats.  But it would appear the metallic flaking observed is expected and simply mica, not part of catalyst but of gasket.  Seems people should be ordering replacement expanding gaskets with their catalysts.  After heated the expanding gaskets are fragile when disturbed. Since the ss cat seems to be requiring frequent cleaning, it may require frequent expanding gasket replacement.  I'd guess when people experience metal flaking on cleaning their combusters, as some have, perhaps need to replace gasket? Isn't Woodstock's cat made by a different company?  Does the PH have this expanding gasket?  If so, I don't think it is where one can get at it to replace it.  Maybe a part of what is happening is fragility of such a cat which leads to crumbling when handled for cleaning, which leads to not tight fit and air flow between side and honeycomb upon subsequent use which leads to less efficient burning....IF there is even such a gasket in the cat.   IF that is occurring, simply gasketing between the cat housing and the cat won't stop all cat bypass airflow....AND , IF that is happening, it becomes really important to minimize the number of times cats need to be removed for cleaning... Fireview or PH.....  Just some thoughts.  Don't even know if the PH has such a gasket.


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## scotsman (Feb 25, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> So:  I read that, at Condor's site.  They claim their "Steelcat" combuster cuts fly ash, improves flow of flue gasses and reduces cleaning intervals.  Also, lights off 100 degrees lower than ceramic.  Sort of the opposite of what a lot of people are experiencing with the Fireview and PH ss cats.  But it would appear the metallic flaking observed is expected and simply mica, not part of catalyst but of gasket.  Seems people should be ordering replacement expanding gaskets with their catalysts.  After heated the expanding gaskets are fragile when disturbed. Since the ss cat seems to be requiring frequent cleaning, it may require frequent expanding gasket replacement.  I'd guess when people experience metal flaking on cleaning their combusters, as some have, perhaps need to replace gasket? Isn't Woodstock's cat made by a different company?  Does the PH have this expanding gasket?  If so, I don't think it is where one can get at it to replace it.  Maybe a part of what is happening is fragility of such a cat which leads to crumbling when handled for cleaning, which leads to not tight fit and air flow between side and honeycomb upon subsequent use which leads to less efficient burning....IF there is even such a gasket in the cat.   IF that is occurring, simply gasketing between the cat housing and the cat won't stop all cat bypass airflow....AND , IF that is happening, it becomes really important to minimize the number of times cats need to be removed for cleaning... Fireview or PH.....  Just some thoughts.  Don't even know if the PH has such a gasket.



Gasket in PH looks like regular stuff, like door gasket or top gasket. Cat slides in and seats against gasket which matches perimeter of open side of cat. Would not be hard to replace at all. Don't know what expanding gasket is, but this looks like "normal" braided, white, 3/8" gasket material. It appears that all by-pass could be stopped in PH even if there was no gasket at the back, by sliding gasket into and around cat's metal housing (sides). Housing is a sleeve about 1/16 - 1/8 larger than outside cat dimensions, with just enough perimeter space to put gasket material in and work in with putty knife for a very tight fit. That's what I did two days ago and it appears to have eliminated any possibility of blow-by.


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## raybonz (Feb 25, 2012)

What people are referring to is known as interam gasket which is a high temp gasket which contains mica that expands and seals the cat once heated. My old CDW used it around the cat and basically has to be replaced once it's been heated and the cat has been removed..

Ray


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## bjkjoseph (Feb 25, 2012)

. They are bought from a cat company and S/S cats are actually more expensive than the ceramic cats. The reason they have gone to S/S cats is because ceramic cats are sensitive to thermal shock and can crack or crumble which     this is false.....a new ceramic cat for the fireview cost me over 200 bucks....ss is only 125


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## jdonna (Feb 25, 2012)

rideau said:
			
		

> So:  I read that, at Condor's site.  They claim their "Steelcat" combuster cuts fly ash, improves flow of flue gasses and reduces cleaning intervals.  Also, lights off 100 degrees lower than ceramic.  Sort of the opposite of what a lot of people are experiencing with the Fireview and PH ss cats.  But it would appear the metallic flaking observed is expected and simply mica, not part of catalyst but of gasket.  Seems people should be ordering replacement expanding gaskets with their catalysts.  After heated the expanding gaskets are fragile when disturbed. Since the ss cat seems to be requiring frequent cleaning, it may require frequent expanding gasket replacement.  I'd guess when people experience metal flaking on cleaning their combusters, as some have, perhaps need to replace gasket? Isn't Woodstock's cat made by a different company?  Does the PH have this expanding gasket?  If so, I don't think it is where one can get at it to replace it.  Maybe a part of what is happening is fragility of such a cat which leads to crumbling when handled for cleaning, which leads to not tight fit and air flow between side and honeycomb upon subsequent use which leads to less efficient burning....IF there is even such a gasket in the cat.   IF that is occurring, simply gasketing between the cat housing and the cat won't stop all cat bypass airflow....AND , IF that is happening, it becomes really important to minimize the number of times cats need to be removed for cleaning... Fireview or PH.....  Just some thoughts.  Don't even know if the PH has such a gasket.



When I got some time, I will have to post what my SS cat looked like when it was pulled out.   

I think it would not hurt to have Interam gasket on hand, the outside foil of my SS was slightly warped, which I believe the expansion and contraction of the stainless steel cat was hard on the expanding gasket.  I think the ceramic cats have little to no expansion during its burn cycle.  I have the ceramic cat burning now and am pleased to see just a slight whsip of steam and 500 degree stove top temps.  Looks good for a cat that was the original from 2001. 

I wonder if shiming the catholders inside dimension down before installing a SS cat would be a benefit to a tighter fit?  

But for now, I am running the Ceramic cat with the old scoop!


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## ddddddden (Feb 25, 2012)

bjk, the cats are $125 if bought through Woodstock.  More $ elsewhere.


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## ddddddden (Feb 25, 2012)

Yeah, I think the fragility of the interam gasket with the "expansive" SS is an issue.  In the Fireview, the cat and gasket are housed in an iron frame.  The whole assembly lifts out for cleaning, so it's not like the gasket really gets disturbed.  I haven't opened the frame since installing mine, but there are loose pieces of something rattling around in it. . .gasket = my guess.  The SS cat may be the best thing since sliced bread, but that doesn't matter much if you can't keep it gasketed.  Doh!


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## Todd (Feb 29, 2012)

Thought I'd give a little update on what I've found switching all the cats and scoops around. I'm sticking with the s/s scoop and ceramic cat setup. Seems like any fine ash that can get through that small mesh screen will either settle on top of the scoop or go right through the larger celled ceramic cat. The old scoop gives me a more even burn and seems to breath better but also lets more ash into the cat.

When I had the s/s scoop and steel cat I still had more fly ash build up on the cat because of the smaller cells. The old scoop and s/s cat combo builds up fly ash even quicker. I think if Woodstock went with a larger screened scoop the cat would just plug up sooner and require more maintenance.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 29, 2012)

As expected, my Fireview is running beautifully with its one week old replacement SS cat. I even take back what I said about Black Locust being hard to start now that the stove is running right again.


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## fire_man (Feb 29, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> As expected, my Fireview is running beautifully with its one week old replacement SS cat. I even take back what I said about Black Locust being hard to start now that the stove is running right again.



Ditto here with my new SS cat. I'm into it for 1 week and it lights off perfectly.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 29, 2012)

Maybe I'll just have to give in a plan on a new cat every year or so. I don't expect WS to replace them forever. $125 is not a huge amount of money for a super stove and wonderful, otherwise, mostly free heat. I can save on shipping if i go to the pig roast every year too.


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## scotsman (Feb 29, 2012)

Flatbedford said:
			
		

> Maybe I'll just have to give in a plan on a new cat every year or so. I don't expect WS to replace them forever. $125 is not a huge amount of money for a super stove and wonderful, otherwise, mostly free heat. I can save on shipping if* i go to the pig roast every year too*.



I'm gonna try real hard to get there this next year. All efforts failed last year, since Katie could have deployed at any moment, which she finally did. I heard it was a lot of fun. :-(


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## jdonna (Feb 29, 2012)

I am back to running the old Iron Scoop and the old ceramic cat with a new interam gasket.  No complaints!   I will try with the ss scoop and the ceramic cat next. 

I am guessing with the new replacement ss cats you guys are getting you are going to see having to light off at higher temps after it is broken in just like the first round.


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## Flatbedford (Feb 29, 2012)

jdonna said:
			
		

> I am guessing with the new replacement ss cats you guys are getting you are going to see having to light off at higher temps after it is broken in just like the first round.



Probably, but I am enjoying this while it lasts.


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## Backwoods Savage (Feb 29, 2012)

Texas boy said:
			
		

> Flatbedford said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Terry, maybe you could fly by here and pick me up on the way. lol I do hope that we get to meet this fall.


Our new SS cat is working nicely so far. Only one time did it hesitate on lighting off. So I opened the bypass and raised the flue temperature up a bit and all was well. Not had that problem since so it must have been a fluke. I know it is hot in the house right now!


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## rmcfall (Nov 24, 2013)

Just got through reading this thread and was wondering what the findings were regarding the new steel cats?  I'm due for a replacement and will likely go with ceramic, unless something has been discovered to improve upon the steel cats?


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## Flatbedford (Nov 24, 2013)

Happy with my Stainless. I did give it a bath mid season last year and that really woke it up.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/fireview-cat-wash.106098/


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 24, 2013)

Maybe time to start a new thread as this one is pretty old.  Steel cats seem to be working fine and like Steve, we gave ours a bath last summer and that really cleans things up nicely.


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## jmccabe (Nov 24, 2013)

Had a little trouble with stainless cat at start of season. Called Woodstock and they suggested using a spray bottle of 1/2 vinegar 1/2 distilled water until it dripped/drained through to the other side of the cat, and then rinsing with distilled water. Let dry before reinstalling. Took almost no time at all and worked like magic.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 24, 2013)

Interesting JM. Did you heat the mix before spraying?


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## jmccabe (Nov 24, 2013)

Nope, just mix, spray, rinse, and dry. Hard to know whether it would work for everyone, of course, but whomever I spoke to at Woodstock said one of the employees did it from time to time with great success. Sure was easy to do.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 24, 2013)

Thanks JM. I have to call them tomorrow so will be asking more questions then.


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## rideau (Nov 24, 2013)

How long does it take the cat to dry? I guess one could use a hair dryer to dry it quickly?  Wouldn't want to have the stove off for very long in the winter, though I guess one could clean the cat while the stove was in the final coaling stages....


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## jmccabe (Nov 24, 2013)

She said I could use a hair dryer if I was in a hurry. I started with that on low but after 5 mins or so it seemed like it might be awhile. I just put it in front of the small fan I have running on low in the stove room and it was bone dry when I checked back in an hour.


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## rideau (Nov 24, 2013)

Thanks.  That is very helpful information and will save me some time and frustration.  I'm going to clean the cat soon.  Did it once, but tried...pretty unsuccessfully...to submerge it.  The PH one is just too long.  Spray bottle and fan great ideas.


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## rmcfall (Nov 24, 2013)

Anyone know the findings from the steel cats that were sent back to Woodstock?


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## Todd (Nov 24, 2013)

Looks like Woodstock has changed the steel cat from a wound crushed cat to a layered cat like the PH. I think it's an inprovement but I'm still not convinced it's better than a ceramic cat. I'll stick by my ceramic cat til I get more info.


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## rideau (Nov 24, 2013)

Have to say I never had  problem with the ceramic cat in the Fireview.  Lasted five years.  Always worked.  I might check it once a year.  The last time I checked it, after having some flame impingement, I could see a piece of it had started to crumple. Five years into its life, I figured it didn't owe me anything g and replaced it.  The SS cat on the PH has been an adventure.  Not a huge deal.  Woodstock has been fine to deal with re the SS cat.  It is being/has been improved.


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## rmcfall (Nov 25, 2013)

Great.  Glad to hear there's been some improvements.  

Rideau- is hour cat one of the new cats Todd referred to?  A layered cat?  What sort of adventures?


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## jdonna (Nov 27, 2013)

I am bumping this thread up again.  Sorry, it has been a while since I have been on guys.  

I am back to running with a stainless steel scoop and stainless cat.  I still am not settled on which one is better, still leaning on the ceramic.  

I am on a second stainless steel cat, swapped out for a new one late last winter.  I guess there is no warranty on replacement cats, just the one that came with the stove.   In Woodstock's defense they have been very good to me considering I bought my stove abused and had rebuilt it all myself. 

Woodstock did give me a price break on the replacement one but never did hear what the issue was with the one I sent back.  I do not believe it is the multi-layer one that some of you are describing, but they said it was improved over the first release.  

I am contemplating going with an aftermarket replacement ceramic cat when performance falls on this cat.  I kind of like the extra firebox room the angled cast scoop gives you and easy of seeing that sweet glowing cat.  

Side note: We would love to try the new steel stove out for a try on my setup =)


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## Flatbedford (Nov 27, 2013)

Do the wash on the stainless if performance drops off. It will be good as new.


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## Todd (Nov 27, 2013)

rmcfall said:


> Anyone know the findings from the steel cats that were sent back to Woodstock?



I was told the wound crushed cat may of forced most of the exhaust flow through the middle where the cells were larger and maybe it was degrading that area sooner. The new layered cat has a more even flow since the cells are all the same size like a ceramic cat. They also improved the wash coat.


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## Backwoods Savage (Nov 27, 2013)

I did talk to Woodstock and found out this suggestion came from a supplier. One of the Woodstock folks gave it a try and found it works. This is good to know because as rideau found, bathing that long cat of a Progress could be a problem. 

The newer cats which are just coming in now are again different and hopefully even better. They also come with their own frame but you will need those two bolts (shipping bolts that held the cat) that came with the stove to bolt this one in. It is very lightweight so this is why you need to bolt it in place.


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## Todd (Nov 27, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> I did talk to Woodstock and found out this suggestion came from a supplier. One of the Woodstock folks gave it a try and found it works. This is good to know because as rideau found, bathing that long cat of a Progress could be a problem.
> 
> The newer cats which are just coming in now are again different and hopefully even better. They also come with their own frame but you will need those two bolts (shipping bolts that held the cat) that came with the stove to bolt this one in. It is very lightweight so this is why you need to bolt it in place.


Didn't realize you had to bolt this one down, good to know. For You Fireview guys this shouldn't be a big deal with the easy access but it's going to be a pain for my top vented Keystone.


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## jdonna (Nov 27, 2013)

I heard that the new frame/cat combo was coming too.  I will be curious to hear results and observations when someone tries it out.   

One of my issues with the stainless cat with the iron frame was the looseness.  I wound up double wrapping the interam gasket.


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## Kansasplains (Dec 19, 2013)

jdonna said:


> I heard that the new frame/cat combo was coming too.  I will be curious to hear results and observations when someone tries it out.



I know this thread started a long time ago, but does anyone have any feedback on how the new replacement SS cats are working?  My ceramic cat is getting tired and it's time for another one.   Talked with WS today and they assured me that the new cats are working better. They have ceramic available for the Fireview, but not for my Keystone. Trying to decide if I want to try the SS or buy a ceramic one direct from the manufacturer. Would love to have some feedback from someone that has used the new one for a while.
Brian


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## Todd (Dec 19, 2013)

I think it's too early to tell how the new cat is working out but it does sound like they made improvements. Either way you go you will have a warranty on the cat.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 20, 2013)

Kansasplains said:


> does anyone have any feedback on how the new replacement SS cats are working?  My ceramic cat is getting tired and it's time for another one.   Talked with WS today and they assured me that the new cats are working better. They have ceramic available for the Fireview, but not for my Keystone. Trying to decide if I want to try the SS or buy a ceramic one direct from the manufacturer. Would love to have some feedback from someone that has used the new one for a while.
> Brian


I bought my 2010 Keystone at the end of the year. It had the cast scoop and ceramic cat. Then they came out with the steel cat and I decided to get one of those, too, and try it. I ran the stove in spring and fall 2011, then stuck the Fireview Jan. 2012. Keystone has been in this year. If I get the (top-of-the-firebox temp) probe up to about 1000, and the flue meter to about 500 and hold for ten minutes or so (thermo lying on the tee take-off, 6" behind the rear-vent flue collar, so this temp would be lower 12" up a top-vent setup,) the original steel cat will get a solid light-off with the stove top meter below 100* if I start with a cold stove. I can light off on a re-load in about fifteen minutes without firing the stove very hard at all. I don't choose to light off that quick every time, but I can if I need to. So I guess if I get the new, improved steel cat I'll be able to light it off after pre-heating the fire box for half a minute with a bic lighter.


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