# Chimney fires.



## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

I have had two chimney fires in the last two years with my Atlanta Model 26 wood stove. Am using aged, dried hard wood and no sappy pine, get it cleaned annually, etc.  The stove pipe goes through about 10 feet of uninsulated (i.e. freezing cold) attic, which I'm thinking could be a contributing factor. Am looking for helpful advice on how to avoid future chimney fires! Thanks.


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## Grisu (Nov 11, 2013)

Obvious question: How long has the wood been split and stacked with lots of wind and sun exposure? Did you actually measure the moisture content after re-splitting some of your seasoned wood? 

What kind of chimney pipe do you have? Double-walled? How tall is the chimney in total? Are you burning cardboard or any other non-wood stuff in there?


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## Jags (Nov 11, 2013)

Sounds like you need a much more frequent chimney cleaning to start with.  Then we need to figure out why you are building up so much goo that it lights up into a fire.
Possible points of failure:
Bad fuel (yeah - I know - its dry.  But what does that mean)
Too low of stack temp (smoldering fire).
Stack getting cooled causing the smoke (which there should be very little of) to stick.

Having a chimney fire per year is VERY alarming.  We need to figure out why and correct that.

ETA - even a smoke dragon stove can be run safely and moderately clean if some "best practices" habits can be followed.


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## Sprinter (Nov 11, 2013)

I can only emphasize what's already been said.  

1.  Take a critical look at the wood supply.  You may be surprised that it's not as dry as you think.  A moisture meter can help.

2.  You may be burning too low and slow.  If the flue temps are hot enough, creosote won't form.  It's actually a condensation that occurs below about 250F.  With a long, cold flue run, that needs to be hot all the way up.

Whatever the problem is, it's serious.


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

Thanks for your responses. Yes, I am very concerned. Am planning to have chimney cleaned in Dec. and then again in March. Also, I bought the wood from a local fireman who attests to its low-moisture level.  But, I did not age it myself... or test it myself. And, I keep the flu wide open always. The fire is generally got flames, unless I've gone to bed. Also, I've started using that anti-creosote spray at the start of every fire. An oldtimer friend told me that it might be condensation due to the uninsulated attic... Really don't want another chimney fire this year!!


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Obvious question: How long has the wood been split and stacked with lots of wind and sun exposure? Did you actually measure the moisture content after re-splitting some of your seasoned wood?
> 
> What kind of chimney pipe do you have? Double-walled? How tall is the chimney in total? Are you burning cardboard or any other non-wood stuff in there?



How does one measure moisture content, after re-splitting? And I was burning the wood pretty much right after splitting it - no good? The chimney is 6 ft. to the ceiling, 8 ft. in the attic, and probably three or four  feet from roof up...How can I tell if it's single or double-walled?


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## fire_man (Nov 11, 2013)

Atlanta - how did you know you had a chimney fire, was it the classic locomotive sound and sparks flying from the top?

Is is possible you have air leaks in the pipe which are introducing cool air and causing creosote buildup?


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2013)

*The fire is generally got flames, unless I've gone to bed.*

What does this mean? What happens when you go to bed?


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## Sprinter (Nov 11, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Atlanta - how did you know you had a chimney fire, was it the classic locomotive sound and sparks flying from the top?
> 
> Is is possible you have air leaks in the pipe which are introducing cool air and causing creosote buildup?


Good question.  What did the chimney fire look/sound like?


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## Grisu (Nov 11, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> Thanks for your responses. Yes, I am very concerned. Am planning to have chimney cleaned in Dec. and then again in March. Also, I bought the wood from a local fireman who attests to its low-moisture level.  But, I did not age it myself... or test it myself. And, I keep the flu wide open always. The fire is generally got flames, unless I've gone to bed. Also, I've started using that anti-creosote spray at the start of every fire. An oldtimer friend told me that it might be condensation due to the uninsulated attic... Really don't want another chimney fire this year!!



I hope that fireman does not want to justify his job by selling unseasoned wood.  Joking aside, how does that wood behave when you put it on hot coals? Does it sizzle, steam a lot? Does it take a long time (>5 minutes) to catch fire? Do you have a moisture meter? If not cut a few splits and press the fresh surface against your cheek. Does it feel cold and damp? If yes, it is probably still too wet. 

Please also answer the other questions: Type of chimney pipe, length of chimney etc.


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> How does one measure moisture content, after re-splitting? And I was burning the wood pretty much right after splitting it - no good? The chimney is 6 ft. to the ceiling, 8 ft. in the attic, and probably three or four  feet from roof up...How can I tell if it's single or double-walled?


 
I think you need to re-asses your burning practices.

Wood has to season/dry AFTER it is split, for a period of months. If your local fireman buddy is doing this too, he also needs some education, I think.

You can find moisture meters at bldg supply places - test a fresh split surface with it.

And maybe further explain your stove operation procedures.


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## Sprinter (Nov 11, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> How does one measure moisture content, after re-splitting?


Yes.  You make a new split, then apply the pins to the fresh face, with the grain is best.


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## Sprinter (Nov 11, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> I keep the flu wide open always.


 If you're still getting bad creosote with the air fully up, that really points to the wood not being dry enough.


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## Grisu (Nov 11, 2013)

Sorry, did not see your post earlier. Chimney length sounds ok, tall enough but not excessive. Can you post a few pictures? The stove, the pipe (also in attic), the wood you are getting?


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Sprinter said:


> If you're still getting bad creosote with the air fully up, that really points to the wood not being dry enough.


 
'Flu' wide open wouldn't mean too much if the stove gets choked down.

I'm seeing a mixture of issues - if the smoke comes out of the chimney & tries to get back in the house down low, I don't think the chimney is high enough either.

Possibly wood quality, stove operation (didn't look like an efficient stove from the google results I saw), and chimney height.

EDIT: Got my wires a bit crossed up with another thread - likely chimney height is not an issue. Oops. Would like to see answers to all the questions asked though.


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## oldspark (Nov 11, 2013)

"The stove pipe goes through about 10 feet of uninsulated (i.e. freezing cold) attic"
Is that stove pipe or class A chimney pipe?


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Nov 11, 2013)

What about where or what part of the chimney is getting the build up, was your chimney sweep able to determine the location of the build up? Or would that not matter? Good luck in finding the cause...


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## Jags (Nov 11, 2013)

Its your wood and possibly questionable operating technique (to be determine through more questions)



atlanta model 26 said:


> And I was burning the wood pretty much right after splitting it -


What are the stove top and stack temps you run at?


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## maple1 (Nov 11, 2013)

This is a Franklin-type stove - right?

(We have enough questions piled up yet?  )


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Atlanta - how did you know you had a chimney fire, was it the classic locomotive sound and sparks flying from the top?
> 
> Is is possible you have air leaks in the pipe which are introducing cool air and causing creosote buildup?




Yes- classic symptoms (locomotive sound/sparks). I don't think there are leaks in the pipe...wouldn't the prof. chimney sweeps check for that when cleaning/inspecting?


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

maple1 said:


> This is a Franklin-type stove - right?
> 
> (We have enough questions piled up yet?  )



I think it's a Franklin. I'm new to wood burning stoves.


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

Jags said:


> Its your wood and possibly questionable operating technique (to be determine through more questions)
> 
> 
> What are the stove top and stack temps you run at?



I have no clue about temps.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 11, 2013)

Here is a Model 26


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> What about where or what part of the chimney is getting the build up, was your chimney sweep able to determine the location of the build up? Or would that not matter? Good luck in finding the cause...



I don't know where the buildup was, but the whole thing was cleaned out thoroughly, and inspected. Thanks for the good luck wishes!


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Here is a Model 26


Yep, that's the one!


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

maple1 said:


> *The fire is generally got flames, unless I've gone to bed.*
> 
> What does this mean? What happens when you go to bed?



The fire pretty much turns to embers once I stop throwing logs on.


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## Jags (Nov 11, 2013)

Here is the deal - you are splitting wood then basically feeding that directly into the stove.  Not a good move.  You essentially don't have any idea of the moisture content of the wood.  It is generally accepted that wood doesn't really start to season till it has been split (there are exceptions).
Pile that wood into your stove with unknown operating temps and you have mixed up a recipe for creosote.  This stuff is caking onto the side walls of the pipe until you finally get a fire going hot enough to torch it off.


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## fire_man (Nov 11, 2013)

Grisu said:


> I hope that fireman does not want to justify his job by selling unseasoned wood.



I deserve that for missing this part:



atlanta model 26 said:


> And I was burning the wood pretty much right after splitting it - no good?


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## begreen (Nov 11, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> How does one measure moisture content, after re-splitting? And I was burning the wood pretty much right after splitting it - no good? The chimney is 6 ft. to the ceiling, 8 ft. in the attic, and probably three or four  feet from roof up...How can I tell if it's single or double-walled?



If you don't have a moisture meter, try resplitting a thick split in half. Then take the freshly split face of the wood and press it up against your cheek. Does it feel dry or cold and damp? Bang the two halves together. Do they ring with a musical note or do they go thud? If it feels damp and goes thud, the wood is still wet inside.


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 11, 2013)

begreen said:


> If you don't have a moisture meter, try resplitting a thick split in half. Then take the freshly split face of the wood and press it up against your cheek. Does it feel dry or cold and damp? Bang the two halves together. Do they ring with a musical note or do they go thud? If it feels damp and goes thud, the wood is still wet inside.



The logs I just re-split feel pretty dry = cold, but dry. When I strike them together it's more of a ring than a thud, so I think the wood is fairly well seasoned. It is not, however, cracking on the ends which I know is a sign of very well aged wood...So, I guess I have to:
1) Have the chimney cleaned twice this year.
2) Find some even drier/older wood.
Question: is it possible to insulate the pipe in the cold attic? Does anyone think that could be contributing to the frequent chimney fires?
Thanks all for your great replies!


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## fire_man (Nov 11, 2013)

Yes it is possible to insulate the pipe in the cold attic. Just do a search on "Chimney liner insulation". The easiest type of insulation is a blanket that wraps around the pipe.

Yes It should help reduce creosote accumulations by improving draft and keeping the flue warmer so that the gases don't condense. A cold flue will require more cleaning to prevent chimney fires.

But the best thing you can do is burn dry wood!


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## tsquini (Nov 11, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> I have had two chimney fires in the last two years with my Atlanta Model 26 wood stove. Am using aged, dried hard wood and no sappy pine, get it cleaned annually, etc.  The stove pipe goes through about 10 feet of uninsulated (i.e. freezing cold) attic, which I'm thinking could be a contributing factor. Am looking for helpful advice on how to avoid future chimney fires! Thanks.


My first guess was also moisture content. If we rule that out what. Else could it be? All fires need heat, fuel and oxygen. You are getting all 3 at the right amounts.

Does the chimney go straight up through the roof or does it have elbows?
Is the chimney only used by this stove?
How do you light the fire? Do you use cardboard or fire starters, pine cones?

Are you the only one loading and maintaining the stove? I ask this because my wife use to use our stove similar to an incinerator?

Do you burn a lot of smaller scrap wood?
Animal nest in the chimney? What time of season does the fire occur? Beginning , middle , end.

How well does you stove draft?


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## oldspark (Nov 11, 2013)

What kind of chimney do you have?


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## Redcloud5400 (Nov 12, 2013)

Seems moisture content in the wood is in question here.  I plan to pick up a moisture meter soon given the nature of this thread and that I am new to an old 30's vintage wood stove!  Others have posted that Lowe's sells a pretty tried and true meter for under 30 bucks.  Seems like cheap insurance in light of regular flue fires.

Can someone reiterate the ideal moisture content/percentage as well as an acceptable range for burning?


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## Grisu (Nov 12, 2013)

Redcloud5400 said:


> Seems moisture content in the wood is in question here.  I plan to pick up a moisture meter soon given the nature of this thread and that I am new to an old 30's vintage wood stove!  Others have posted that Lowe's sells a pretty tried and true meter for under 30 bucks.  Seems like cheap insurance in light of regular flue fires.
> 
> Can someone reiterate the ideal moisture content/percentage as well as an acceptable range for burning?



For measuring the moisture content take a few splits from random places of your stack, split them in half and press the pins in the center of the freshly exposed surface; along the grain is best. Ideally, the wood should be below 20%. You should be careful with overfiring your stove if its gets below 10% but unless you live in a really hot and dry climate that is unlikely.


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## Grisu (Nov 12, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> The logs I just re-split feel pretty dry = cold, but dry. When I strike them together it's more of a ring than a thud, so I think the wood is fairly well seasoned. It is not, however, cracking on the ends which I know is a sign of very well aged wood...



To be sure I would get a moisture meter. Look in your local hardware store or try this here for less than $20 with shipping: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67143.html



> So, I guess I have to:
> 1) Have the chimney cleaned twice this year.



If your chimney is straight up I would give this here a try: http://gardusinc.com/sooteater.html It does a good job, takes about 30 min from start to finish (including clean-up) and does not cost $100 every time. I would run it once a month in your situation. 



> 2) Find some even drier/older wood.



That, and get some more cords of green wood that you can stack outside to dry for next year. Only then can you be sure that your wood is seasoned. Here is an "ideal" setup:





http://www.instructables.com/id/No-tools-firewood-rack/
But you can also just stack the wood on pallets if you don't want to spend any money. It looks surely like more work but you should notice that you will need less wood. Btw. Your stove is a pretty old and inefficient one. If you are committed to woodburning I would think of replacing it with an EPA-approved one. You will cut your wood consumption in half. 



> Question: is it possible to insulate the pipe in the cold attic? Does anyone think that could be contributing to the frequent chimney fires?
> Thanks all for your great replies!



You can insulate it but maybe we should check what kind of pipe you have and if it would be advisable to replace it. Can you get up in the attic and get some pictures? Maybe also one of the setup on your roof?


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## MDFisherman (Nov 12, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> I have no clue about temps.


 
I just picked up a burn indicator at lowes for 11 bucks.  Mount on the flue 18" above the woodstove


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Nov 12, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> The fire pretty much turns to embers once I stop throwing logs on.


Go to lowes, pick up a moisture meter, go home split your wood the way you usually do it, test the wood with your new meter and post your results here ASAP, also any pictures of your wood split and whole would help us out.


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## maple1 (Nov 12, 2013)

MDFisherman said:


> I just picked up a burn indicator at lowes for 11 bucks.  Mount on the flue 18" above the woodstove


 
Keep in mind that those types of thermometers are only giving a very rough reading, outside the surface of the pipe. The internal pipe temperature will be at least 100°c more than what that burn indicator will read.

Still some unanswered questions re. the chimney setup of the OP - and we like pictures.


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 12, 2013)

tsquini said:


> My first guess was also moisture content. If we rule that out what. Else could it be? All fires need heat, fuel and oxygen. You are getting all 3 at the right amounts.
> 
> Does the chimney go straight up through the roof or does it have elbows?
> *-Straight up- no elbows.*
> ...


*- I think it drafts pretty well, although I have to keep the flue wide open or it smokes out a bit.

I am attaching some pics to help describe the situation here:*


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 12, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> *- I think it drafts pretty well, although I have to keep the flue wide open or it smokes out a bit.
> 
> I am attaching some pics to help describe the situation here:*




And a few more pics of the wood, and the anti-creosote stuff I use on every fire:


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## Jags (Nov 12, 2013)

Is there the opportunity for a moisture meter in your future?  I am still highly suspect of the fuel.  I would also recommend a thermo for the stove and one for the stack.  Knowing those 3 pieces of info will give you a much better chance at success and for pretty low bucks.


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 12, 2013)

MDFisherman said:


> I just picked up a burn indicator at lowes for 11 bucks.  Mount on the flue 18" above the woodstove


I will purchase a burn indicator today. Thanks.


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 12, 2013)

Ram 1500 with an axe... said:


> Go to lowes, pick up a moisture meter, go home split your wood the way you usually do it, test the wood with your new meter and post your results here ASAP, also any pictures of your wood split and whole would help us out.


I will also buy one of these moisture meters today. Thanks!


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## bluedogz (Nov 12, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> And a few more pics of the wood, and the anti-creosote stuff I use on every fire:



FWIW, I had almost EXACTLY the same conditions burning my smoke dragon Sierra a few years ago.  Never had a chimney fire,but that was more by luck than design.

Problems were:
1) Wet wood- I was buying freshly-split red oak (because "oak is good, right?")  Moisture meter was like $12.99 on Amazon.
2)  Poor chimney condition- I had 20' of cracked masonry.  Upon relining it, (shout out to Hogwildz), the draft almost sucked my wife into the stove.

That photo sure looks like oak to me.  If so, that sure ain't helping.

You probably have figured out by now that you'll get more help here than maybe you're able to handle...


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 12, 2013)

Grisu said:


> To be sure I would get a moisture meter. Look in your local hardware store or try this here for less than $20 with shipping: http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-mini-moisture-meter-67143.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I posted a pic of the pipe inside, attic and roof. It doesn't look/sound insulated to me, but I'm new to all this. I will buy wood earlier and stack it for the spring/summer, but for now, I've got the wood I've got! Will get more if it turns out to be more than 20% moisture.... Thanks for the stacking ideas!
I rent here so am not really interested in purchasing a new stove. And have you used the sooteater? Do you think it really works? Something tells me there is a bigger problem here than just the wood, but clearly having the chimney cleaned more regularly will help a lot. Thanks for your time and advice.


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 12, 2013)

oldspark said:


> What kind of chimney do you have?


See pics I just posted. Thanks!


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## atlanta model 26 (Nov 12, 2013)

fire_man said:


> Yes it is possible to insulate the pipe in the cold attic. Just do a search on "Chimney liner insulation". The easiest type of insulation is a blanket that wraps around the pipe.
> 
> Yes It should help reduce creosote accumulations by improving draft and keeping the flue warmer so that the gases don't condense. A cold flue will require more cleaning to prevent chimney fires.
> 
> But the best thing you can do is burn dry wood!



I will investigate chimney liner insulation. Thanks!


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## MDFisherman (Nov 12, 2013)

I sweep my flue myself,  Just go buy the brush and rods (also at Lowes!!)  Just hop up on the roof, take the cap off and run the brush up and down a few times.  Then clean all the crap out of the stove that falls.  If you're going to burn that wet wood then I would recommend getting in the habit of sweeping the flue regularly.


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## bluedogz (Nov 12, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> And have you used the sooteater? Do you think it really works?



Mine rocks.  I attach it to an 18V hammer drill and am done in 20 minutes.


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## Jags (Nov 12, 2013)

atlanta model 26 said:


> And have you used the sooteater? Do you think it really works?


Yes I do - and Yes it works.  AND it can be done from the bottom up - no climbing on the roof.
It sounds like you are on the correct path.  Make sure your "burn indicator" has actual temps on it.  When you get them installed, report back on your peak temp and run temp (when everything settles down for the long haul).  The group here will get you on a "best practices" cycle and get you back to heating - and hopefully much safer.


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## Sprinter (Nov 12, 2013)

If you have a flue damper, you probably will want to always keep that fully open.  If you don't have a problem with excessive draft, you don't need it.  If that's ever closed down, that could contribute to the problem.  When you talked about having to keep the "air" turned up, did you mean the flue damper or the air supply?  I may have misread an earlier post.

Agree about the SootEater.  That will work well for you.  Except the material has to be fairly loose.  If it's baked-on hard stage 3 creosote, that would be more of a challenge.

All the 2-pin type moisture meters work about the same.  You could get one for 15 or 20 on line, but you may want to get one right away at the store.  Harbor Freight has one for about $13 if you have one nearby.  People here who have them like them. 



maple1 said:


> Keep in mind that those types of thermometers are only giving a very rough reading, outside the surface of the pipe. The internal pipe temperature will be at least 100°c more than what that burn indicator will read.


Correct.  The rule of thumb is that internal temps are double that of the surface.


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## Redcloud5400 (Nov 12, 2013)

So while we're on the topic of flue buildup, moisture content, burn temperature and even rate of burn...the thoughts of a colder fire or slow burn came up.  What is the real driver for creosote/flue buildup...setting pine aside...and I realize its probably not any one operating condition...
1) is it moisture content as the largest driving factor?
2) is it a slow burn?
3) is it a combination of both?

Is a slow burn with seasoned wood that is 18% or less in moisture content ok?

Is the phenomenon of flue build up the solids precipitating out of the smoke due to temp change as you move up the stack? i.e. moisture working its way out, lower temp is slower stack/smoke/emissions velocity...seems to be all three.

What's been the seasoned vets experience?
In my mind a slow burn with seasoned and dry wood is ok.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 13, 2013)

I don't know how you could ever burn an old Franklin style too slow. I had one in 1977 and it is a leaking fast burning scare box. Mine was "professionally" installed and when we moved I went into the attic to bring down some stuff and crawled over to the pipe. The attic joists on all sides of the pipe were charred. My knees were shaking when I came back down thinking about how many nights I went to bed with that thing burning.

And the oldest wood I probably ever burned in it was probably a month off the stump.

Best way to burn the thing is as an open fireplace with a screen in front of the open doors.


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## tsquini (Nov 13, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I don't know how you could ever burn an old Franklin style too slow. I had one in 1977 and it is a leaking fast burning scare box. Mine was "professionally" installed and when we moved I went into the attic to bring down some stuff and crawled over to the pipe. The attic joists on all sides of the pipe were charred. My knees were shaking when I came back down thinking about how many nights I went to bed with that thing burning.
> 
> And the oldest wood I probably ever burned in it was probably a month off the stump.
> 
> Best way to burn the thing is as an open fireplace with a screen in front of the open doors.


We used a Franklin in a camp for many years. What you say is true. It is better to yes it more like a fireplace. The flue pipe would be tinging and cracking from the heat.


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## Redcloud5400 (Nov 13, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I don't know how you could ever burn an old Franklin style too slow. I had one in 1977 and it is a leaking fast burning scare box. Mine was "professionally" installed and when we moved I went into the attic to bring down some stuff and crawled over to the pipe. The attic joists on all sides of the pipe were charred. My knees were shaking when I came back down thinking about how many nights I went to bed with that thing burning.
> 
> And the oldest wood I probably ever burned in it was probably a month off the stump.
> 
> Best way to burn the thing is as an open fireplace with a screen in front of the open doors.


 
So true, and I've only fired it once.  This is again installed in my shop and will only be fired when I am in it, and will only be left unattended when I can safely touch the outside of the stove.  I can see how easy this stove could be overloaded, and I am just amazed at how fast the flue temps climb.

My apologies for the questions in this post...they seem out of place given the style of the OP's stove.  Just learning is all...you guys are awesome--so much to glean from your replies.

FWIW, at the first firing I never loaded it more than the base of the door, and was hitting flue temps measured from the outside of 430 deg F which I  believe would be approaching the limits?

So I wont say I should never worry about creosote build up in my chimney but its less likely given that a Franklin Style burn fast and hot.


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