# The "new and improved Greenwood boiler"



## sparke (Sep 11, 2011)

http://www.greenwoodusa.com/frontier-series-indoor-gasification-boiler-photos.php


I see some very interesting design changes, specifically the way combustion air enters and leaves the firebox.  In my redesign my biggest challenge has been figuring out how to preheat and deliver secondary combustion air.


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## sparke (Sep 11, 2011)

Check out page #6.  I think they finally have the design on the right path.  Major improvements in combustion efficiency.  I wonder if they have finally made the heat exchanger easier to clean?


http://greenwood.zendesk.com/attach...=Greenwood_Frontier_CX_Manual_Version_0.8.pdf


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## NNYorker (Sep 11, 2011)

Looks like the heat exchanger is turned 90*--- no penetrations in the top skin. This design looks like the one that should have been sold in the first place..... Hopefully much less issues for future buyers.


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## WoodChoppa (Sep 13, 2011)

Shady characters for sure.  I understand they declared bankruptcy and stuck pro-Fab who they contracted to build the original units with about 350 boilers.  Now they're back!


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## WoodChoppa (Sep 13, 2011)

Just found this under "About Us"

"A Note About Greenwood Technologies
In February of 2009, Greenwood Technologies (GWT) ceased operations - certain assets were acquired by Clean Energy Company. Unfortunately, Greenwood Clean Energy can not sell or support the Greenwood Furnace or Aspen Series. The information on this website regarding these products is provided for reference only and to assist dealers with their non-warranted inventory. 

As a public service, Greenwood Clean Energy is providing information and a support forum for products sold by former Greenwood Technologies here: "


Same company same people out of Bellvue Wash.  You want to give these b*ggers another chance to screw more people?


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## NNYorker (Sep 13, 2011)

Sounds like a hauntingly familiar story..........i.e. Phillip Dougherty and Adobe Boiler,Enterprise Boiler,Royal Mountain Energy........ He also will help you out if you are interested in traveling..............American Travel Guide LLC.


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## sparke (Sep 13, 2011)

I posted this thread for the design implications to refractory units.  I have been working on my Greenfire this summer to obtain secondary combustion.  For a few years there are many of us with this style unit that felt the design could be so much better.  The new Greenwood unit is very close to what I wanted for a new design but could not accomplish without basically starting from scratch.  I am going to settle for a refractory shelf at the top of the firebox with pre - heated secondary combustion air coming in under the shelf.  I am hoping to get a secondary burn at the top of the unit.  Super heating the exhaust stream that will flow over the Hex.


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## NNYorker (Sep 13, 2011)

Sparke, I hear you , this design "looks" much better than the original Greenwood. I hope for everyones sake this thing is the "fix". I also hope the manufacturer ACTUALLY did some real field testing with these units. It seems 1st generation Greenwood owners did most of the field testing while in service. 5" exhaust out of the blower/inducer motor?? I hope they did their homework/testing and not set this thing up for failure from the onset. I would love to see another worthy product on the market for people to buy. A hybrid of outdoor and indoor gasser combined?? I purchased my other wood burner(the INFAMOUS one) for a little less wood prep, indoor placement.......Well, you know the rest.


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## heaterman (Sep 14, 2011)

NNYorker said:
			
		

> Sparke, I hear you , this design "looks" much better than the original Greenwood. I hope for everyones sake this thing is the "fix". I also hope the manufacturer ACTUALLY did some real field testing with these units. *It seems 1st generation Greenwood owners did most of the field testing while in service.* 5" exhaust out of the blower/inducer motor?? I hope they did their homework/testing and not set this thing up for failure from the onset. I would love to see another worthy product on the market for people to buy. A hybrid of outdoor and indoor gasser combined?? I purchased my other wood burner(the INFAMOUS one) for a little less wood prep, indoor placement.......Well, you know the rest.



As noted above, it's the same company. Why would a person expect anything different?  

They messed up a lot of people when they copped out and declared BK. I know this sounds kind of harsh but please let them die off like they deserve.  

getting a little cranky in my old age. ........


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## tigermaple (Sep 14, 2011)

It is my understanding the "inventors" bought what remained of Greenwood and incorporated the improvements. In early 2009 when all hell was breaking loose in the markets the money men pulled out their funding from GW causing the bankruptcy. I have spoke with reps from the new GW and they describe the new unit as a" American Gasser" with the secondary chambers above the primary instead of reverse for euro gassers. This idea sounds intriguing to me as did the price point so I will go see one early next month in operation and report back. GW may not have the best name rep but at least the gov didn't have to bail them out like GM.


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## heaterman (Sep 14, 2011)

If it's the same people, surely they must feel some obligation to all the owners and dealers that are left holding the bag currently. Who's bailing them out?

It's a mystery to me how a low dollar sign (price point) can cloud the judgement of ordinarily rational people.


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## tigermaple (Sep 14, 2011)

Heaterman, I enjoy your posts and have benefited from your knowledge and advice. But, to turn your back on possible innovation because of a name or color is silly. Many good companies have gone out of biz and come back stronger after restructuring.  I am not recommending people run out and buy this thing, as I have no clue it works. That's why I am researching them. I also( I maybe alone here) love my GW.
PS. It is not cheap.


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## sparke (Sep 14, 2011)

Again, my original post has nothing to do with Greenwood other then they came up with the new design some of us have been trying to engineer ourselves.  I don't have a Greenwood I have a Greenfire and technically any refractory type unit like ours are a rip off from Fred Seton the original designer/inventor.  Again sidetracked.  

I am not advocating for or against Greenwood. They have come up with a new design which looks like it should work. I personally have been experimenting with new designs for a while. My reason for the post is for refractory owners such as myself a forum to discuss the new design, find out how it works,  post pics of our homemade new designs, etc...  if you want to post about the ethics of Greenwood - please start another thread.  I am interested in making our boilers better so we don't have to reinvest another 7K on a new boiler.  I am interested in mechanics of the design not politics of one of many companies selling them.

Peace!


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## WoodChoppa (Sep 14, 2011)

Sparke,
The problem with ignoring their past record is that new members will see these threads and the pretty new ads running below and may not know anything of their past record of poor design and business management that screwed a lot of people.  How can you just give them a free pass?  This attitude says a lot for the state of our economy and our nation I'm afraid.  This company did not "prevail" they "bailed out" and "downloaded" their responsibility and obligations onto other companies and individuals and is now back in the game to make fresh $$$.  

I know there is not much that can be done in reality to prevent this company from conducting business.  But in this tiny little community called the "Boiler Room" floating in the far reaches of cyber space I think we are obliged to stand up and let it be known that this is not right or ethical.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 14, 2011)

LOL @ anyone buying a GW with their eyes wide shut if they've spent any time here.

But I'm with Sparke and Tiger . . . good idea to find out WHAT they did/are doing to improve the design. Firing Dave Barber would be the single best design enhancement!!

Not saying I would run out and buy a N&IGW;. But mine has paid for itself.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 14, 2011)

If they believe in the enhanced design, they should donate on to a real world user. I will gladdly run it and I will be the first to go on record if it's half as great as they think.


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## heaterman (Sep 14, 2011)

I just get tired of companies claiming they have found a loop hole in the laws of physics or reinvented fire itself.

Face it. Burning wood efficiently and cleanly is absolutely not rocket science.  There are only three things that have to be realized and addressed.  .........

1> You don't cycle the fire once it is going.
2> Storage capacity should be sufficient to hold a complete burn 
3> Water is the perfect storage medium for BTU's

Address those three things and you can pass the EPA standards with just about any decent combustion technology.

As far as all the new electronic technology goes (ie: lambda etc.) I wouldn't touch it unless the company has a very large presence here and is not going away. (Think Viessmann)
Econoburn makes a very well built unit right here in the USA. 
EKO has been around long enough to be considered a stable import at the least with a good track record. 
Tarm has obviously been around for decades with a very successful product and lots of happy customers. 
Garn blows away the EPA PhaseII emission levels using real cord wood and zero electronic control of combustion plus they have tons of units out there over 20 years old.

The point is:   There are a lot of very good, proven products from companies that have stellar track records and with all the changes going on in this industry that should be a major factor in a persons buying decision.


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## ozzie88 (Sep 15, 2011)

I benn looking at some of these replys and would like to share some of my ideas, I built my own boiler from a pile of metal and pipe,only thing I had to start was a top boiler tank from a new yorker boiler with vertical tubes.   I pre-heat the outside air with the flue gases right after they exit the boiler ,the boiler is in basement. i have a 4inch pipe comeing in  from outside  with a ele. control flap that works with blower off water temp. then I built a 20 x 16inch dome on top[old propane tank] made a box around it then pipe 4inch to blower, from blower air goes to 3 different pipes to chambers all adj. seperatly and rap around outside bottom boiler so 10* air is heated to over 400 plus when it enters chambers,seem to work very good so far. I can control flame in bottom and top chamber [secondary is on top] and change color and size of flame,times I think it to hot?  firebrick and panels get really bright red hot,  From what I have seen it works as good as any of boilers you can buy and price is right too. I have the sections of boiler bolted so cleaning the top and tubes is easy also, takes about 45 min. to clean it get back running. Tghis thing is fully automactic with over heat controls built in also,just fill with wood and light.
 I will share any other info I can with you or questions.


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## henfruit (Sep 15, 2011)

Heaterman you forgot to mention vigas.Yes it is new in the us but it is in the same class as the ones you mentioned if not better. take eko they advertize they have been tested by omni labs to ul standards.not so omni labs does not have a completed file for them??? The garn is great but it is still an open system.


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## Pat53 (Sep 16, 2011)

ozzie88 said:
			
		

> I benn looking at some of these replys and would like to share some of my ideas, I built my own boiler from a pile of metal and pipe,only thing I had to start was a top boiler tank from a new yorker boiler with vertical tubes.   I pre-heat the outside air with the flue gases right after they exit the boiler ,the boiler is in basement. i have a 4inch pipe comeing in  from outside  with a ele. control flap that works with blower off water temp. then I built a 20 x 16inch dome on top[old propane tank] made a box around it then pipe 4inch to blower, from blower air goes to 3 different pipes to chambers all adj. seperatly and rap around outside bottom boiler so 10* air is heated to over 400 plus when it enters chambers,seem to work very good so far. I can control flame in bottom and top chamber [secondary is on top] and change color and size of flame,times I think it to hot?  firebrick and panels get really bright red hot,  From what I have seen it works as good as any of boilers you can buy and price is right too. I have the sections of boiler bolted so cleaning the top and tubes is easy also, takes about 45 min. to clean it get back running. Tghis thing is fully automactic with over heat controls built in also,just fill with wood and light.
> I will share any other info I can with you or questions.



Well done Ozz, got any pics you can share?

Pat


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## 2.beans (Sep 16, 2011)

the greenwood has to work see the pictures in there add!


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## heaterman (Sep 16, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> Heaterman you forgot to mention vigas.Yes it is new in the us but it is in the same class as the ones you mentioned if not better. take eko they advertize they have been tested by omni labs to ul standards.not so omni labs does not have a completed file for them??? The garn is great but it is still an open system.



I remember Vallaint (sp?) boilers from Europe. They were the largest boiler manufacturer in the world at the time and decided to set up shop here in the US. They were here for a while and then pulled out. Vigas, and all the rest like them, need a decade or so under their belt before I give them my personal stamp of approval. I know, I know, I'm a cranky crusty old b#*%&$d but I've seen way to many people get the wrong end of the stick in situations like that. Why risk it when there are so many good brands of products already here that offer the same level of performance?  
Note to all............this is just my personal opinion.                     Capeche'?


RE: open systems/semi open systems...You say that like it's a bad thing?


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## ozzie88 (Sep 17, 2011)

Hello, Pat53,  I have some photos on 3 different post I put on one [secondary be to hot] and another home made boiler I put on under ozzie88,    You should be able to find them if not e-mail me I will send some,,


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## djblech (Sep 18, 2011)

Do any of these units address a power outage overheat situation? After 2 overheats last year I would not even think of purchasing another boiler unless this problem was solved.(And that is if I could talk my wife into another one, which is very doubtful.) I know I could spend more money and come up with a solution, but why shouldn't it be part of the system. My plumber was surprised that a solid fueled appliance didn't have some kind of overheat protection.
Doug


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## henfruit (Sep 18, 2011)

Doug, Why dont you put in an inverter to run you pump if you loose power?


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## bigburner (Sep 18, 2011)

I saved the green wood PDF in by "building a boiler " File. I come to this site to get better ideas for my wood burning experience. If GW is building something new I am watching. Little changes can have big results. I am a fan of refractory & simple. The R&D of building your own has some emotional up and downs, but way more ups. I buy the factory built stuff for my customers. [put it in front of them, they make the choice] I am Heating 12,000 sq ft +/- with HOMEMADE. I was inspired by the original GW & Garn, both very simple designs.


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## djblech (Sep 18, 2011)

Henfruit, 
I had one loop to a hx in my basement from the garage that had 3 pumps on it.(including the mixing pump from GW to keep the return water from getting to cold.) The other loop included my propane boiler in the basement and had 2 pumps on that loop. Because of the distance I would have to run 2 inverters with batteries. All my zones are powered through the gas boiler, so I would have to power that also. By the time I put all this together, I might as well buy a 8k auto back-up generator at a cost of $2500-$3000. I really believe that these boilers should come with  overheat protection or a gravity(convection) dump zone that is tested to work for that boiler. I would be happy to pay for this. After 4 overheats I have replaced all 5 pumps, 2 aquastats, and the last time I blew a line and flooded the basement. MN Power has gone down 6 times so far this year. 
Doug


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## ozzie88 (Sep 18, 2011)

Doug, This may help you with the over heat problem, what I did is on the air intake for fan I got a reducer from the 6inch. fan opening to 4inch. galvanize duck pipe then put a ele. atomatic flap air control in it that will be closed with NO electric. It is hooked up to come to open and close with the heat control for the boiler, This snuffs the fire out,  Then in the 1 1/4 inch hot water pipe outlet I have a manual adjustable flow control which I leave just cracked a little so when ele. is out the left over heat will still flow out and circulate,[my boiler is in basement]  this also is enough so if and when I run my oil boiler it does not back feed in wood boiler.  So far this is working good for me I have tested it couple times with water temp on my boiler to shut off at 1808 when I shut ele. off it got to 190 to 200 highest which is ok.
  Hope this helps you some,,Chuck


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## Dick Cook (Feb 6, 2013)

djblech said:


> Do any of these units address a power outage overheat situation? After 2 overheats last year I would not even think of purchasing another boiler unless this problem was solved.(And that is if I could talk my wife into another one, which is very doubtful.) I know I could spend more money and come up with a solution, but why shouldn't it be part of the system. My plumber was surprised that a solid fueled appliance didn't have some kind of overheat protection.
> Doug


 
Doug,

I have a greenwood model 300 and have had maybe 4 power failures in a 6 year period.  My solution was to install a Generac 22kw Quiet Source generator.  The last power failure a few days ago, the Generator was producing in about 20 sec's and the Greenwood didn't over heat.  The only other cause of an overheat is if the damper motor does not close - and that has happened a couple of times.  I'm thinking of putting a plate above the motorized damper that will drop down when a fuse link gets too hot.

Best,

Dick


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 10, 2013)

Dick Cook said:


> Doug,
> 
> I have a greenwood model 300 and have had maybe 4 power failures in a 6 year period. My solution was to install a Generac 22kw Quiet Source generator. The last power failure a few days ago, the Generator was producing in about 20 sec's and the Greenwood didn't over heat. The only other cause of an overheat is if the damper motor does not close - and that has happened a couple of times. I'm thinking of putting a plate above the motorized damper that will drop down when a fuse link gets too hot.
> 
> ...


 

Just curious what a 22 kW Generac runs these days ?


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 10, 2013)

djblech said:


> Henfruit,
> I had one loop to a hx in my basement from the garage that had 3 pumps on it.(including the mixing pump from GW to keep the return water from getting to cold.) The other loop included my propane boiler in the basement and had 2 pumps on that loop. Because of the distance I would have to run 2 inverters with batteries. All my zones are powered through the gas boiler, so I would have to power that also. By the time I put all this together, I might as well buy a 8k auto back-up generator at a cost of $2500-$3000. I really believe that these boilers should come with overheat protection or a gravity(convection) dump zone that is tested to work for that boiler. I would be happy to pay for this. After 4 overheats I have replaced all 5 pumps, 2 aquastats, and the last time I blew a line and flooded the basement. MN Power has gone down 6 times so far this year.
> Doug


 
What about using a Watts STS20 or Honeywell HS130 thermal relief valve to cool down the boiler water in case of over heating via an integrated cooling circuit.
We use them in a lot of our decorative hydronic wood boilers.
Works great with city water and well water

https://www.google.com/search?q=wat...gGG8IC4CA&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QsAQ&biw=1680&bih=947


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## Fred61 (Feb 10, 2013)

With well water I'm only going to get the amount of water that's in the pressure tank if I don't have electricity to run the deep well pump.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 10, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> With well water I'm only going to get the amount of water that's in the pressure tank if I don't have electricity to run the deep well pump.


 
Yes, but this in combination with a small generator and/or DC circulator will bring you safely trough the blackout.


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## Dick Cook (Feb 10, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Just curious what a 22 kW Generac runs these days ?


Doug,

I think with everything (Generac 22Kw, cold water block heater kit, battery warming kit, wireless indoor monitor, and battery), it all came to under $10k with me doing the installation. I already had the 200amp auto transfer relay from the older generator that I was replacing.  A propane generator will NOT start when it is -20F ! Your local codes may not allow you to do your own work....

Best,

Dick


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## Dick Cook (Feb 10, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> Just curious what a 22 kW Generac runs these days ?


I forgot to mention that I purchased the Generac through Electricgeneratorsdirect.com - but there are many other sources.


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## Fred Seton (Jun 21, 2013)

Dick Cook said:


> I forgot to mention that I purchased the Generac through Electricgeneratorsdirect.com - but there are many other sources.


 The Seton Boiler design requires several things to work properly. During a power outage the draft will close, damping the fire down, there should be two relief valves on top of the boiler, one thirty pound pressure relief and one 120 degree T&P. Also a very critical thing is a check valve behind the relief valves, this causes the cold fill water to rout from the fill valve on the back of the boiler up through the pressure vessel.  In my opinion, the new Greenwood will have a short life because of the straight tube design. Each tube will have a different expansion rate and will put a great amount of stess on the headers. Every water tube boiler built uses a bent tube design for this reason. I show how to build a 12V backup and how to plumb the Seton Boiler or copies of it, on the Rohor site, page 19 and 21.


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## henfruit (Jun 21, 2013)

Welcome Fred,
                           Long time coming.


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## BoilerMan (Jun 23, 2013)

I saw the new GW at the NE Forest products Expo in Bangor Maine. It does look interesting, the refractory design boilers seem to work well IF controlled correctly. GW did not make any HX cleaning improvemnts, still have to unbolt the top and remove a bunch of stuff and brucs the HX tubes. The boiler skin is totally enclosed and the rep claimed the combustion process was totally seperated from the insulation benieth the skin which is a HUGE improvment IMHO. It is alot of $$$$ for what it is. One could build one themselves, as we have proven here many times!

Oh and a seemingly sketchy thing was the REALLY small flue outlet into the really small draft inducer. 

TS


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