# Installing a boiler in a shed?



## mtaccone (Jan 22, 2008)

I have heard that some install the HS tarm outside in a shed rather than in a basement. Is this possible? I have forced air gas now and am planning to put wood primary heat in this house over the summer.. I have seen the heat exchangers on Ebay for $200 or less. Without a good way to get the wood in this basement with out carring through the house and down the stairs outdoors is a good option that and if a fire occurs I burn down the shed and its contents rather than the house... If this is doable any ideas on costs? Probable do most of it myself with exception of heat exchanger. The Tarm is only 1 season used since 1978 in my parents basement so If I can get it out and use i here that saves a ton right there...  Any thoughts?


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## Nofossil (Jan 22, 2008)

mtaccone said:
			
		

> I have heard that some install the HS tarm outside in a shed rather than in a basement. Is this possible? I have forced air gas now and am planning to put wood primary heat in this house over the summer.. I have seen the heat exchangers on Ebay for $200 or less. Without a good way to get the wood in this basement with out carring through the house and down the stairs outdoors is a good option that and if a fire occurs I burn down the shed and its contents rather than the house... If this is doable any ideas on costs? Probable do most of it myself with exception of heat exchanger. The Tarm is only 1 season used since 1978 in my parents basement so If I can get it out and use i here that saves a ton right there...  Any thoughts?



I think it's a good approach. You have to think about freezing protection, though. If you're going to use it all the time, an insulated shed would probably work fine. Otherwise, you'd have to use antifreeze, which I think requires a little more maintenace.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 22, 2008)

A shed works good. A couple of things to consider, in addition to nofossil's freeze protection warning: You're going to lose some efficiency in that the radiant heat off the boiler vessel and chimney are basically going to be wasted, unless your boiler room is big enough to store some wood. And you're going to need to put in underground lines to get the hot water from the shed into the house. That's an extra expense and possibly an engineering challenge.

On the freeze thing, I've done it both ways. I'd strongly recommend spending what you would have spent on antifreeze on extra insulation and maybe a scheme for circulating a little bit of warm water through the wood boiler when you're out of town in the winter. If you already have a gas or oil boiler, it wouldn't be hard to crack a valve on the wood side run the pump while you're gone, in order to keep everything on the wood side above freezing. But a well insulated boiler in a well insulated shed should hold its heat for days after the fire goes out.

Antifreeze makes everything a lot more complicated and expensive.


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## mtaccone (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't have a boiler now I have a hot air system so I think I better go with the antifreeze.. Installing and burying the lines I can do easily. The ground will be tore up for drainage lines also so thats would be good timing... Im thinking by what I have read and the location that this could be an easy DIY install. I would need a heating guy to install the exchanger though.. Have you got any material pricing? How expensive is anti freeze?


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## wdc1160 (Jan 22, 2008)

IMO if you have to introduce gycol then your doing it wrong. There are better ways-- pick one of those.


Bill


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## mikeyny (Jan 22, 2008)

My lines are still above ground. I originally planned on putting them underground but didn't have the time. When I finally got the time I couldn't be bothered. My pipes run along the fence line and in thru the foundation. They sit on 2 layers of 2 inch styrofoam and are wrapped with fiberglass insulation and plastic. Not the best way to go. It requires a little maintenance from time to time.  I don't run antifreeze in mine. I just use it all winter, thats why I put it in in the first place. When I do have to leave for 2 days I just run a return pump 24-7 and it never froze yet.(knock on wood). 
                                               Mike


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 22, 2008)

You want to keep an eye on your pex, Mike, to make sure the mice and squirrels don't gnaw through it. IME, they like to nest in the insulation, since it's nice and warm in there. I don't know if they'd chew on plastic, but I don't want to find out. I wrapped the runs through my barn ceiling in small-mesh wire in hopes of keeping them away from the goodies.


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## mtaccone (Jan 22, 2008)

I would have to run antifreeze to be safe as I do not have a boiler set up now I have hot air


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## leaddog (Jan 22, 2008)

mtaccone said:
			
		

> I would have to run antifreeze to be safe as I do not have a boiler set up now I have hot air


If you are going to run the boiler water into your furnace with a heat exchanger you don't need to use anti-freeze. Just make sure you keep your transfer pump running and it will transfer heat back to the boiler and keep things from freezing as long as you run your furnace when the boiler isn;t going.
leaddog


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## mtaccone (Jan 22, 2008)

ahh I see now how about a water line from my house to fill this system? I am assuming that it must be hard plumbes how does that not freeze?  Obvious this outside boil just came to me the other day hence all the ???'s


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 22, 2008)

You run plastic pipe with a lot of insulation around it underground. If you're really ambitious, you could put it below the frost line. You could also run a piece of heat tape within the insulation to warm things up if they start to cool off too much. All of this is cheaper in the long run than antifreeze, which is more than $5 per gallon.

You would run the water to a water-to-air heat exchanger in your basement, and your existing furnace takes care of distributing it into the house. It's pretty simple to set up, actually.

You can hang a sidearm heat exchanger on your existing hot water heater and heat all your domestic hot water as well. You can put in a hot water storage tank if you like, infloor radiant, etc. etc.


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## mtaccone (Jan 22, 2008)

I have seen a couple side arms online not sure how they work...  where do the circulators go basement? just need 2 loops I guess you call it 1 for hot water 1 for heat? costs of parts as I am doing it mostly myself?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 22, 2008)

You need one loop from the boiler into the basement. One pump. You can run the sidearm in series, so that water coming from the boiler passes through the sidearm on its way to the heat exchanger. Or you can go the other way if you prefer. Doesn't matter, really.

The sidearm works by gravity. When you pass the hot water through the outside tube, it heats up the domestic water in the inner tube, and it circulates into the water heater. The size of your underground pipe is determined by the size of your boiler. I'm guessing you can get by with 1" pex, but you might have to go up to 1 1/4 if it's a big Tarm. The pump size should be dictated by the length and pipe size in the loop. I'd allow $3.50 per foot for pipe and insulation, and $200 for a good pump. You can build your own sidearm for around $100 in materials if you're good with a soldering torch or buy one on Ebay for not a whole lot more. Another $200 for misc parts and fittings. Maybe a little more.


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## mtaccone (Jan 22, 2008)

Sounds like I could do all this under $1000 which is great being it will be outside. I was going to spend $3000 on a masonry chimney and add on furnace.


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## daleeper (Jan 22, 2008)

"If you are going to run the boiler water into your furnace with a heat exchanger you don't need to use anti-freeze. Just make sure you keep your transfer pump running and it will transfer heat back to the boiler and keep things from freezing as long as you run your furnace when the boiler isn;t going."

OK, you guys have said this several times in this thread.  What if the power is out a week, and you have no generator, and it is below freezing?  Are you telling me you don't need antifreeze then?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 22, 2008)

Then I would drain the system, since you can't use it under those conditions anyway.

You can always come up with a worst-case scenario. What if a pipe breaks when you're at work, all the water drains out of your system and your pump seizes up and your boiler overheats? What do you do then? Try to design around the contingencies.

In this application, glycol wouldn't be too bad, since you're talking about a loop to a water-to-air hx, anyway. But my position is that glycol is more trouble than it's worth, and I'm sticking to it!


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## mtaccone (Jan 23, 2008)

what is the trouble with glycol? Never used it in a boiler so fill me in if you will..


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 23, 2008)

It's expensive and hard to put back into the system if you need to drain it off for some reason (system maintenance, etc.). It can go acidic on you after a few years and eat up your components. And it hurts your heat transfer compared to water. I think somebody posted a link saying that it's up to 12 percent less effective at heat transfer than plain water. And it's slimy.

I've used it in two different systems. Most recently, with another boiler in my current house, I used it because I was afraid of a freeze-up, but my house has cast iron radiators (hundreds of gallons of water), so I had to use a flat plate heat exchanger between the wood (glycol) side and the house (plain water) side. In my experience, the system is much more responsive if you can pipe the wood side directly into the house hydronic system compared to using a heat exchanger. And I suspect, it's much more efficient for reasons relating to the nature of heat exchangers (they only extract a fraction of the heat on any given pass).


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## wdc1160 (Jan 23, 2008)

I don't like it for all the reasons that Eric said and that is is expensive, more upkeep and preventable.


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## sled_mack (Jan 23, 2008)

I've got my boiler and storage tank in a shed, and I really like it.  No mess or smell in the house.  

The run from the shed to the house is about 150 ft for me.  My only advice is to insulate the pex really well.  If you've got wet soil, or worse yet moving water, be sure to keep that ground water away from your pex and insulation.  Some people say that ground is an insulator, or that it gets "charged" with heat then give heat back.  Personally, I don't buy either argument.  But I know for a fact that if your ground is wet, that water will carry away your heat very quickly.

When I put mine in, Central Boiler sold this sleeve material, almost like a garbage bag 200 ft long and not quite big enough to go around a 5 gal bucket.  I used that to go around my pex-insulation bundle.  Then put all of that inside an 8 inch corregated pipe for extra protection.

There are dozens of methods that will work.  Check them all out, and do what you think will work best for you.

If you are considering a storage tank, and you put that tank in the shed, it will help keep the shed/boiler warm if the boiler is out for an extended time.  Mine can go a week no problem.  You can also more easily put a bigger tank in a shed than you can in a basement.  Plan that out carefully before you build your shed too small.

Good luck and keep us posted with your plans.


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## 55Razor (Jan 23, 2008)

Hi, Everyone. I stumbled across this site, and after seeing the amount of information and knowledge relating to Gasification Boilers, had to join in!
mtaccone, my setup is exactly as you have heard some people do. I have my boiler in a shed I built 100' from the house. I decided to do this for a couple of reasons. First, the mess and smell are outside, but secondly, with the surely upward trend of fuel prices, more people will be looking at wood heat as a solution. The problem with this is a lot of these will be of the variety that think all they have to do is be able to sign the check to buy a wood-heat device, and not really appreciate all that goes into it. I can see tragic consequences in some cases, and an Insurance Industry that may eventually say "if you have a wood-burning appliance inside your dwelling, we're not going to insure it" 
I want to comment on the concern with the supply and return pipes possibly freezing. I was worried about that, too, and here's what I did. I wired the circulator so that it could be run manually using the circulator rocker switch on the front panel of my boiler. My thought is that if I'm going to be away for an extended time, I could let the circulator run continuously to keep the water moving. One obstacle to that was the Termovar Valve; it is closed until the water reaches 160 F, preventing circulation. If the boiler's not running, no hot water! So I installed a 3/8 shunt valve around the Termovar that I can manually open when I need to, my thought being that the flow through this would be sufficient enough to keep the water moving so it wouldn't freeze. Fortunately I haven't had to test it!


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 23, 2008)

Welcome to the Boiler Room, 55Razor. Sounds like a sweet system. I like having my boiler outside of my living space as well, for all the reasons you mentioned. And that's a good point about signing the check and expecting the thing to all come together. There's a lot more money and a lot more time and work involved in getting things the way you want them, but it's mostly fun and well worth every penny and every minute.


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## 55Razor (Jan 23, 2008)

Thanks, Eric. I'm always "tinkering" with my system, and I've already borrowed some ideas from here to try out. I can't get over the info. available!
One more good reason for putting a Tarm or the like in an outside building that I can't say I thought of until after I did it; There's no better place in the world than sitting in my warm boiler shed at 6:00am enjoying the fresh wood and coffee smells!


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## atlarge54 (Jan 23, 2008)

mtaccone said:
			
		

> I have seen a couple side arms online not sure how they work...  where do the circulators go basement? just need 2 loops I guess you call it 1 for hot water 1 for heat? costs of parts as I am doing it mostly myself?


My sidearm was a kit which was some pcs of pipe and fittings, two of the fittings needed filed inside so the internal pipe would slide through. Nice thing about the kit is it allows you to orient all the outlets for your particular application. I also vote to keep the glycol out.


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## mtaccone (Jan 23, 2008)

appreciate all the info I think the hardest part will getting the 1400lb 1978 hs tarm out of my parents basement.  and worse yet getting it off my truck here. I wish I had thought of this this summer when we bought the house then I would be enjoying free heat. We are tearing down the car garage and building a decent storage shed behind it about 50 feet away from the house. but this is going to be a spring project and a good time since the yard was just dug up this fall for drainage. Yes i do have running water in the back yard..  anyone got any pictures of their setup? in basement and in shed?.. cant wait for spring to get started on this.... And then cutting more wood than I can burn as to sell it to pay for my install materials.... Maybe will burn half the garage too for heat! Also plan to get another door for the tarm as to insert an oil burner as I mentioned in another thread to burn off 500 gas of kerosene I have buried next to my house..


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 23, 2008)

Cinderblock boiler room in the barn.


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## mtaccone (Jan 23, 2008)

thats tight. where can I get a plumbing diagram for this type setup? I also want to see pics of that when possible.....


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 23, 2008)

Here's another one with a cool tank. Bottom of Page 2.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12887/P15/

Piping diagrams, too.

Another sweet setup.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14034/


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## Tony H (Jan 23, 2008)

For what it's worth boiler antifreeze is about 60.00 per 5 gallon bucket and I think they suggest a 50% solution. With my system the dealer reccomended 15 gal if I use it although the idea if running the pump as long as the valve can be bypassed sounds good to me because like you I have a gas forced air system with a heat exchanger and that system will run if the wood runs out and the temp goes down. As Eric said mice and squirrels love plastic pipe so wrap some screen for the mice some wire wesh for the squirrels and stuff steel wool in the open end of the pipe to stop them from crawling in. Since you will only have a little pex exposed in the shed it should not take much. 
You may want to check out some options for the buried pipe and insulation as they make some premade stuff and some make there own, the common idea is PEX or PEX with AL are the best for burial due to flexability for ground movement and no buried joints you will need a hot and a return pipe and it's very important to keep them sealed from groundwater so you don't get water running into the basement.  With most sealed systems you do not need a water connection to fill the system is the tarm an open system ?


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## mtaccone (Jan 24, 2008)

I have to move this boiler about 30 feet to the cellar door in my parents house, once there the front end load will do the lifting. Any words of wisdom on how to do this? and how to get 1400 pound of tarm off my truck at my house?  

Also on a side note I have found a new fuel too bad I cant get it in any quantity. Nut shells! I got the idea to save my peanut and walnut shells and then put em in the fire. I might as well have put gasoline in my fireplace! I wonder what happens to the shells when factories that shell nuts and bag them..


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## sled_mack (Jan 24, 2008)

Might consider renting or borrowing car dollies.


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## Nofossil (Jan 24, 2008)

I rented a guy and a flatbed (tilt-bed?) wrecker. The wrecker has a winch and can easily slide the boiler on and off. It's a bit scary when the bed is tilted down and the boiler is at an angle, but the winch cable does it's thing and it worked fine.


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## leaddog (Jan 24, 2008)

Jack it up and put it on some planks, Put a couple pipes under it and push it ahead and keep putting pipes under it. by angleing the pipe you can turn corners or what ever you want to do. I've watched millwrights move 100ton machines that way. One person can move it but take it slow, think out each move, and NEVER get where you could get pinned if it slips. You can do almost anything with a jack, blocks,pipes (rollers), pry bars, and careful thought. Think how they built the pyamids. I moved a 6 person hot-tub from my truck, onto my deck, over a hole and sunk it into the deck by my self with only a jack, planks, blocks, and pipes. JUST BE CAREFUL, THINK OUT EACH MOVE.
leaddog


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 24, 2008)

mtaccone said:
			
		

> I have to move this boiler about 30 feet to the cellar door in my parents house, once there the front end load will do the lifting. Any words of wisdom on how to do this? and how to get 1400 pound of tarm off my truck at my house?
> 
> Also on a side note I have found a new fuel too bad I cant get it in any quantity. Nut shells! I got the idea to save my peanut and walnut shells and then put em in the fire. I might as well have put gasoline in my fireplace! I wonder what happens to the shells when factories that shell nuts and bag them..



They sell them for boiler fuel. It's a big source of fuel in places where they grow and process lots of nuts, etc. In Michigan you can buy dried cherry pits to burn in a gasifier or other boiler designed for that kind of fuel.

I'll second leaddog's moving ideas. You might consider renting or borrowing a pallet jack. They cost about $30 a day and most will hold at least 4,000 pounds. That's how we moved my EKO last summer. Or find somebody with a forklift or tractor with a front-end loader.


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## Tony H (Jan 24, 2008)

Like Leaddog suggested I moved mine with a few pipes and a floor jack, works great on a hard flat surface and another person also helps alot. To move it from the end of the driveway where the semi with a liftgate set it down we used my neighbors skid steer to bring it around to the backyard. If you have a flat surface the pallet jack will work great and you can even cheat a little going over grass by putting down some plywood and rolling on that. You can also check the rental tool places , the one I use rents skid steers with forks for about 200.00 a day and also pickups with a liftgate for ? For that matter the local Menards and Home Depot rent trucks some with liftgates for a reasonable price.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 24, 2008)

nofossil said:
			
		

> I rented a guy and a flatbed (tilt-bed?) wrecker. The wrecker has a winch and can easily slide the boiler on and off. It's a bit scary when the bed is tilted down and the boiler is at an angle, but the winch cable does it's thing and it worked fine.



I can't compete with that . . . but I did rent a woman by the hour once :coolhmm:


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## Tony H (Jan 24, 2008)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> nofossil said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did she have the (tilt-bed) option ?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 25, 2008)

Tony H said:
			
		

> Did she have the (tilt-bed) option ?



Have mattress, will travel . . . .How DO these threads get so off-track???


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## mtaccone (Jan 26, 2008)

How much efficency do you loose when installing a boiler outside the house rather than in the basement?


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 26, 2008)

That's an excellent question, mtaccone. I'm sure there are at least two numbers--a theoretical one and an actual one for each setup. I'd be interested in knowing the theoretical one.


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## wdc1160 (Jan 26, 2008)

I look at it like this.  If you put a shed with nothing but a boiler in it.  All heat going to that shed is considered waste.  
If you have a workshop / barn / new building with a boiler heating it you have a new play area and a jump in efficiency.  Moral of the this story is you don't have to make the boiler a shed.  Make yourself a shed,  let the boiler live in it.

In another forum room a guy said something like the reason people don't have heated garages is because they can't afford it and because they don't know what they are missing.  I believe him.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 26, 2008)

A logger in northern Minnesota explained it to me this way one time: "You know why people say you shouldn't have a heated garage? 'Cause they ain't got one!"


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## wdc1160 (Jan 26, 2008)

thank you Eric, that is the quote I couldn't remember.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 26, 2008)

You're right about standby losses not really being losses if you're trying to heat the space anyway. In light of that, about the only actual "loss" would be any heat from the chimney not absorbed in the living space. And that's pretty minimal.


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## sled_mack (Jan 26, 2008)

As a test, I switched to oil for 24 hours last winter.  No fire in the boiler.  The tank temp didn't drop enough for me to see the change on the thermometer in it.

Properly insulated tank and shed, losses should be pretty low.  The ground liines are another factor.  Insulate them several times what you think you need, and you'll be fine there, too.

From a purely efficiency standpoint, there is no way a remote boiler can complete with a boiler in the basement.  But, if I do solar to heat my tank in the summer for DHW, I won't be storing that hot water in the basement of my house that is being cooled with central air.  So there is some theoretical offset there.

I think this qualifies as a situation where you can't make your decision based on numbers alone.  What is it worth to not have to drag wood into your basement?  No smoke getting into the house.  No risk of chimney fire in the house.  No ash dirt in the basement.  Or, in my case, the basement was built so small that I would have no storage space if I had to put a wood boiler in it, and I'd be looking at having to bring in wood every other day.  No chance at a storage tank at all.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 26, 2008)

Those are all excellent points.

I'd have to say, having done it both ways, that not having to worry about your house burning down some cold winter night is definitely a major benefit to a remote setup. It's really not a big issue with a gasifier, since you have low stack temps and no creosote, but I sleep a lot better now, anyway.


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## sled_mack (Jan 26, 2008)

We previously used a woodstove in the house to offset the oil heat.  What pushed me over the edge was when I had to travel for work and my wife was going to be operating it.

First step for me was a Taylor OWB, and she loved that the dirt, wood, and smell were outside.  And, it was easy for her to operate when I was away.  She was a little intimidated by the EKO at first, but once I got the timer setup working and all she has to do is open the door, add wood, close the door, reset the timer, she's comfortable with it.

I'll take that huge piece of mind over the inefficiency loss any day.

In fact, if I were going to replace the oil with propane, I'd consider putting the propane boiler in the shed.  I'm not crazy about having things that can go "boom" in the night in my basement....  I know it's rare that it happens, but still.


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## mtaccone (Jan 27, 2008)

The reason I ask is I am toying with the idea of adding a small oil boiler next to the wood for #1 the option of backup and #2 heat dhw in the summer using a indirect tank . Its just a thought and probably not the best way of doing things. Would it be any worse to operate the Tarm with a burner in summer? Since I bought this house in june My electric bill is double what it was at the old place (usage) the only difference is the water heater here is electric. In fact we use less lights, same laundry, all new appliances and so on. Im paying damn near $300 a month on electric alone! 1500sf 2 people most the time cept when the kids are here on weekends. I am also tired of gas and national grid with their complicated surcharges, suprise bills and $20 a month in the summer with no usage for the meter fee or whatever.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 27, 2008)

Having an oil backup is a good idea, but I don't think using an indirect with an oil boiler is the best way to heat your water in the summer, especially if you have a wood gasifier. I think putting that money into a good storage tank makes more sense. Then you can fire up the wood boiler once a week, say, and store enough DHW to get you through the week.

And I thought my electric bill was high at $160.


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## mtaccone (Jan 27, 2008)

Don't have a gasaifier that I know of..Was thinking of the indirect in place of a side arm. $160 electric bill? I guess my home is a freak of nature when it comes to KWH usage as I am higher than anyone I know.  Was wondering how much efficiency I would loose with oil with underground pipe  se In the winter with wood and oil the shed can have heat so its not wasted.


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