# Eshland Wood Gun 140. Please Help! New operator with zero gassifer experience



## Green Mt Heat (Dec 11, 2013)

Hello All,

I just picked up a used Eshland wood gun 140. I have been heating with wood since I was a kid and I have over 12 years of conventional wood boiler experience. I have no experience with a wood gassifier boiler. I just installed the Wood Gun 2 weeks ago, I have been learning a lot, but I have many questions.

1. So far one of my biggest issues is "puffing" or pre-ignition to tell you the truth I'm  not sure what or why the boiler is doing this. I have installed the outside fresh air piping which has reduced the smoke in the room. It seems that this happens when I add 25-30% load of wood in the firebox for a overnight burn. An hour or so later the smoke detector is going off and the WG is puffing? When I open the load door I have noticed that the wood is on fire on the "top" of the pile of wood. When I have only 3 or so pieces of wood in the firebox at a time this "puffing" does not happen. The wood was processed this passed spring so I wouldn't think it was "to dry"? What other reasons might cause this "puffing"? I have closed the manual air valve all the way, still does it. Tonight I will only put in a few pc so hopefully I can get some sleep and not smoke up the house! I have a good draft on my chimney (I ran a natural draft wood boiler for the last 6 years with no draft issues).

Any ideas or experiences with the wood gun "puffing" would be greatly appreciated. As a matter of fact any tips that would be helpful to a new WG operator would be great.

Thanks again


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## mustash29 (Dec 12, 2013)

The Wood Gun cycles on and off, correct?

It sounds like a wood gas explosion.  The remaining wood sits there and bakes during dormant / idle times.  When the combustion blower / exhaust blower kicks on and the firebox gets fresh air it sort of goes BOOM and puffs out everywhere?


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## maple1 (Dec 12, 2013)

I think mustash has it, and I think that's a common WG occurance. Fire gets suffocated, then when it gets told to turn on again, the gases build & then ignite all at once with the gush of fresh air. Hopefully there will be some WG owners along shortly with some hints. I think it was also highly recommended to install a smoke hood over the loading door, ducted to outdoors with a fan in-line. I cobbled up that kind of thing for my old boiler (not a WG) - I turned the fan on before I opened the loading door, then when I turned it off after loading & closing the door it acted as fresh air combustion intake as the drafting boiler would just pull air back in through it. Not sure on your fresh air piping, or if you have a hood, but maybe you could do something like that with the air inlet you have. That won't do anything about the puffing though - but might help get the smoke outside quicker.


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## muncybob (Dec 12, 2013)

Are you getting explosions in the firebox or is it puffing/huffing(no explsosion but you can feel and hear the unit "wheezing")? The explosions are normally caused by gasses igniting and usually when it has short cycled(turned on again very shortly after a burn). To resolve this my aquastat is set using a 30 degree differential(off at 190 and on at 160). Have not had an "explosion" since. The huffing usually occurs when the firebox is overeloaded and not enough oxygen in the box. I rarely get this anymore as long as I only load up to barely half full which is usually good enough for 8 to 10 hours depending on the call for heat/dhw. Even still, if it does huff I don't have the smoke problem you described.


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## CTFIRE (Dec 12, 2013)

Green -
I would adjust the air damper on the intake. You should try around 3/4 closed. You having it closed all the way is limiting the 02 too much. also I wouldn't have it all the way open. 3/4 closed seems to be the best for a bunch of us


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## avc8130 (Dec 12, 2013)

I wouldn't call it "common". 

I find mine runs best with the damper WOT.  The Wood Gun relies on excess oxygen to burn the wood and gasses produced.  

A tight stack of wood with larger splits also helps prevent puffing.  The WG seems to like to be treated like an OWB.

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 12, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> A tight stack of wood with larger splits also helps prevent puffing. The WG seems to like to be treated like an OWB



Open damper, larger splits and perhaps mixed with wood that has poor coaling qualities such as pine or hemlock.

I think we're talking about puffing during the burn as opposed to the explosion commonly experienced upon re-start due to short cycling.


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## avc8130 (Dec 12, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> Open damper, larger splits and perhaps mixed with wood that has poor coaling qualities such as pine or hemlock.
> 
> I think we're talking about puffing during the burn as opposed to the explosion commonly experienced upon re-start due to short cycling.



I've never been able to get my WG to "short cycle".  Running at 30F differential the "natural" calls for fire are far enough apart.  The only wood gas explosions I had were caused by running the cycle timer.  I seem to have stopped them entirely by adding a delay relay to the air damper.  My damper opens 20s after my fan kicks on.

Puffing is definitely caused by too much surface area burning and the inability to get sufficient oxygen to support the constant burn rate.  Closing the damper doesn't help this, at least not after it has started.  Closing the damper might help keep the fire from expanding to the point of getting ahead of the oxygen supply in the first place, but once the puffing starts not much short of cracking the door to introduce enough oxygen will help.  This is a common issue with just about all boilers. 

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 12, 2013)

It's almost like dieseling. The explosion blows out the ignited gasses and by the time enough oxygen is introduced there is a build-up of volatile gasses set to explode. It is self perpetuating unless you can find a way to interrupt the timing.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 12, 2013)

Wow thanks for all your support, this website is a great resource!

Last night I only loaded the boiler with about 6 split pc of wood and I was not woken up by the smoke detector! The down side was I was out of wood by 4 am... I put a few more pc in to get me to 7 am but it was out of wood again @ 7 and not enough DHW for a shower.. This boiler is like sleeping with the enemy (one eye open all night). On the flip side I dont trust this thing enough yet to put more than 6 pc in before I leave for the day to go to work so when I get home the fire is out and the fan has been running for hours with outside air cooling off the boiler. This seems very counter productive, are there "new " controls that have a "low limit" temp cut off that will not allow the fan to run when its out of wood? the firebox in this thing is twice the size of my old Van-Wert wood boiler and that would make it through my day @ work all but the coldest days. With the WG I'm afraid to load it up in fear that I will come home to a house full of smoke?

The puffing only happens when the fan is on and the unit is calling for heat. I will try opening the manual draft damper to 3/4 open and I can adjust the differential to 30 degrees.

All of you WG owners.....Are you always careful how much wood you put in the firebox because of this problem. It would be nice to be able to utilize the firebox size to make it through the night. Tonight it is going to be in the single digits again if not 0.. I would love to fill the box 30% so I had enough DHW in the morning to shower... but not to much wood so I'm up all night with the outside door open airing out the smoke. 

I understand that getting a new boiler online and learning its quirks  is like getting into a relationship with a new girl, its going to take some time. Sad that my old boiler sprung a leak we had so much time together we were like soul mates.

Please keep the experience and ideas coming, you are all a big help!


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## Fred61 (Dec 12, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> I understand that getting a new boiler online and learning its quirks is like getting into a relationship with a new girl, its going to take some time. Sad that my old boiler sprung a leak we had so much time together we were like soul mates



Goodness, you sound experienced. At some point in your life did your old girlfriend spring a leak.


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## maple1 (Dec 12, 2013)




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## avc8130 (Dec 12, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Wow thanks for all your support, this website is a great resource!
> 
> Last night I only loaded the boiler with about 6 split pc of wood and I was not woken up by the smoke detector! The down side was I was out of wood by 4 am... I put a few more pc in to get me to 7 am but it was out of wood again @ 7 and not enough DHW for a shower.. This boiler is like sleeping with the enemy (one eye open all night). On the flip side I dont trust this thing enough yet to put more than 6 pc in before I leave for the day to go to work so when I get home the fire is out and the fan has been running for hours with outside air cooling off the boiler. This seems very counter productive, are there "new " controls that have a "low limit" temp cut off that will not allow the fan to run when its out of wood? the firebox in this thing is twice the size of my old Van-Wert wood boiler and that would make it through my day @ work all but the coldest days. With the WG I'm afraid to load it up in fear that I will come home to a house full of smoke?
> 
> ...



6 splits isn't going to cut it all night with the cold snap the northeast is experiencing.  

Yes, the new controls have an aquastat to cutoff the boiler if the water temp drops below a set point.  This prevents the boiler from "blowing itself cold".  

I generally don't worry about how much wood I put in the firebox.  For Thanksgiving and Christmas I will fill my 180 right to the top and pack as much wood in as I can.  I am gone from my house for 16+ hours those days and need the capacity to prevent coming home to a cold house.  On a normal basis I put enough wood in to get me to my next expected load while still having some nice coals.  After a full year of operation I'm pretty decent at it.

Where is your smoke coming from?  It sounds like you have something else going on creating this massive of an issue to me. 

Can you post pictures of your setup?  

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 12, 2013)

Hi Guys!

@Fred61 ya that girlfriend I ended up marrying her... after about 10 years she ditched me or (sprung a leak) depends how you look at it.LOL...So ya I do have experience.. And from what I have learned up to this point wood boilers are a lot like women. It takes a few years to figure out how to live with them and then once you get them figured out and things are going ok....well its the end of the road. I will say my 1st wood boiler we could just never get along couldn't figure it out no mater what I did. I ended things my way that time...I sold the damn thing. 
Now that my Van Wert decided to bail out I have embarked on this new adventure with Wood GUN! And I have to say WG and I are off to a rough start with this puffing chugging crap! It's 9 degrees out and the damn thing is puffing away! I put about 8 split pc in to see if the air adj. would help but it's 
I did adjust the manual damper and I have concluded that more air is defiantly better.  I have the damper almost all the way open now and the pufs were a lot closer together than when it was at 25%. I plan on letting it burn down before I go to bed and then just put a few splits in b4 bed. I will hae to get up and add more in a few hours which is crazy because the firebox is huge and i cant take advantage of it.

Smoke comes out where ever things are not completely sealed like around the shaft by the manual damper, I removed all  the shims from the loading door so it would seal tighter. It wouldn't leak smoke when it was running normals but when it was puffing It would come out the bottom of the door.

Please chime in with more ideas.

Thanks again you guys are great!


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## 711mhw (Dec 12, 2013)

Yeah, you can not treat the chimney piping casually. It requires special attention to all the pipe joints with that big fan. I stuff the fire box full to the top but they do seem to like big wood or even unsplit, (no one hander's) and good and dry ofcourse.


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## bpirger (Dec 13, 2013)

Is it a problem when it is burning flat out during a demand call or just when the call turns on and it is getting  going?   I assume you have no storage....it is something to think about going forward.  You can then burn flat out to charge storage (big tanks of hot water) and then the fire can go out and you draw off storage.  Depending on storage and your load, you can be burning just one fire a day.

Wood was cut/split this spring?  Might be a little wet.

Puffing is from an uneven mixture of fuel (wood gas) and oxygen.  When there's not enough oxygen to burn the fuel and suddenly there is, you get the little explosion.  Then this cycle repeats.  With my Garn, when I have too many little pieces making too much wood gas, it will puff.  This can be quite wicked, with the door pulsing, the external air intake pulsing, the overhead door pulsing!  Only once have I seen smoke puffing out.  I'd never open the door though at this time, I'd expect a big flash out.


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## maple1 (Dec 13, 2013)

Are you sure everything is clean inside? Nothing blocking air from getting to where it's supposed to get? No blocked air passages anywhere?


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## avc8130 (Dec 13, 2013)

Green,

Pics of your setup please.

How big are your splits?  

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 13, 2013)

I was about to ask about split size as avc did.

Had a couple thoughts. Nothing I ever tried when I had  my 140 but I have even more experience now and along with the Boiler Room, I've given these problems more thought.

Now and then I also get this phenomenon with my EKO and much of the time it is of my own making. The unit will be running fine and I can't leave "well enough" alone. I'll open the door and poke the load so it completely covers the nozzle with a thick bed of coals. Immediately after closing the door it will start puffing and will continue until a hole is burned through the coals. I think this is telling me that the coals are blocking the gasses from going down to the secondary chamber and igniting in the upper chamber. Although the Wood Gun and the Eko are different in that the Eko has secondary air injection and the Wood Gun supplies excess air over the top of the fire in order to ignite the secondary tube the result is still more or less the same.

Thinking out loud here I'm wondering if you keep a channel open to the fire tube if that would make a difference. Never tried this but how about laying some slices of firebrick across the nozzle to help keep your wood up from the nozzle or maybe load some shorter splits toward the rear of the firebox and keeping the front of the nozzle completely free of burning coals, allowing free flow of air into the secondary chamber.


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## avc8130 (Dec 13, 2013)

Fred,

Thanks for bringing that up, I almost forgot about 1 of the most effective techniques!

Green,

Try raking your coals forward towards the loading door leaving the rear nozzle completely uncovered.  Then stack your wood right at the front of the boiler.  The idea is to leave the rear nozzle completely open for free-flowing air straight to the secondary chamber.

If you have really small and dry splits this extra injection of air has been known to help.

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 13, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> Fred,
> 
> Thanks for bringing that up, I almost forgot about 1 of the most effective techniques!
> 
> ...


Sort of makes sense. The explosions are obviously taking place in the fire chamber and that's not where the gasses are supposed to be igniting so they must be trapped in the upper chamber. Getting the gasses to ignite in their proper place should improve the situation.

It's probably a moot point but you and I disagree on which end of the chamber the free air should enter. My thoughts were that the air entering the front would get a chance to do it's work over the entire length of the firetube as it traveled toward the exit.


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## avc8130 (Dec 13, 2013)

Fred61 said:


> Sort of makes sense. The explosions are obviously taking place in the fire chamber and that's not where the gasses are supposed to be igniting so they must be trapped in the upper chamber. Getting the gasses to ignite in their proper place should improve the situation.
> 
> It's probably a moot point but you and I disagree on which end of the chamber the free air should enter. My thoughts were that the air entering the front would get a chance to do it's work over the entire length of the firetube as it traveled toward the exit.



The rear nozzle suggestion came from AHS.  

I think the idea is that the air goes straight down into the lower chamber and has less of an opportunity to "fan" the fire on the wood itself further propagating the issue.

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks for the tips guys,

I will try pulling the coals to the front of the box and Keep the airway clear to the combustion tunnel. I have a few logs that I can cut up tomorrow before the storm. I will leave them unsplit and see if that helps.

Does anyone know if AHS is working on a retrofit part or solution at this point. Has anyone seen a picture of such a device? I guess i could try to fabricate some sort of a heavy steel channel that would act like a duct from the rear inlet down to the fire-grate/ nozzle area. Anyone have any idea how much % to send to the nozzle and how much to send to the firebox? i guess it would be good to make it adjustable? I wonder why all the European gassifiers have secondary air and the WG was never updated to allow for that.. Seems that the back door on the combustion tubes could some how be rigged up to have secondary air if there was a way to meter it and make sure combustion air doesn't come out just oxygen rich air in? Im not an engineer just thinking out loud?? 

I would also like to upgrade my aqua-stat to have a low temp shut off so the fan doesn't run when there is no wood left in the boiler. Do any of you guys have these controls on your WG? Could you please post a picture and the name and model of the aqua-stat.

Update from last nights burn.... I was able to sleep for 6 hours w/o the smoke alarm going off. I opened up the manual draft to 75-85% and adjusted the dif on the aqua-stat to 25 degrees. Hoping to sleep again tonight.

Thanks again... Talk soon


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## Coal Reaper (Dec 13, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> I have a few logs that I can cut up tomorrow before the storm. I will leave them unsplit and see if that helps.


Your wood is not dry enough. Likely secondary chamber not getting hot enough to gassify?


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## avc8130 (Dec 13, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Thanks for the tips guys,
> 
> I will try pulling the coals to the front of the box and Keep the airway clear to the combustion tunnel. I have a few logs that I can cut up tomorrow before the storm. I will leave them unsplit and see if that helps.
> 
> ...




AHS played with a separate secondary air supply.  The problem is with the on/off nature of the WG.  You would need 2 air dampers and those Honeywell units are quite pricey!  It would also add complication.

I'm not sure why you are having such problems.  Something else must be wrong.

Your wood is fine.  I have put oak that was definitely NOT seasoned in my boiler.  It burned it just fine.  DRY wood is the problem for puffing.  

Get your damper WIDE OPEN.  Use big splits.  

For the low limit you will replace your high limit aquastat with a double unit.  I





Where are our pictures?

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 14, 2013)

Hello All,

Thanks for all the helpful posts!
avc8130 thanks for the picture and all the help .Ac Could you please post another picture so that I can see how it is wired I have an old double aqua-stat from my old boiler, im just not sure how to wire it? My WG only has white black and red wires. I still have no idea how to wire in the "ready light"/ I will try to figure out how to post some pictures. 
Update! Im on the right track thanks to all of you! 2 full nights of sleep with no smoke detector waking me up! I adjusted the hi limit to 190 and set 25 degree differential. I have also been careful to keep the fire grate/ air way to main combustion tube clear. Today I was home most of the day and I tested loading the firebox just over the bottom of the door wit a few un-split pc of hemlock 8-10" diameter. The WG did not puff once that I saw all day! I also took a shim out of the rear door as it seemed like it might have had a small leak? Today I don't think it got over 15 degrees all day so it cycled quite often. I have no idea why things have turned around so well? tomorrow it is supposed to warm up to 20 and I will see if the WG continues to run well.

I have an odd question no that things are starting to improve. Do all of the WG's have the same sized fan motor? Is a 1/3 hp the right motor for a E140? isn't that over kill for the size of the fan? because that is what is on my WG?

Thanks again everyone, what a great resource this is!


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 14, 2013)




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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 14, 2013)




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## Fred61 (Dec 15, 2013)

Yes, I believe that's the original blower motor. The WG moves a lot of air. With that in mind and viewing your photos, please be certain that you have good clearance from that horizontal flue pipe to any combustables. The high air flow periodically blows burning coals up the flue and they will get trapped in any horizontal run. It can get hot enough to turn that pipe red. One WG owner on this site changed his pipe to about a 45 degree angle in order for any coals or ash that would get trapped in the pipe could slide back into the cyclone.


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## avc8130 (Dec 15, 2013)

Green,

Is your flue connector sealed up?  I don't see any red silicone or tape on any of the joints.

Your splits are all pretty small.  That might be "fun" for awhile.

I'd love to help you with your wiring, but you need to tell me what you have.  I've never seen an "old" Gun in person, and I can see from looking you have a lot less stuff going on.

How many aquastats does your WG have right now?  

Your damper motor is different from the new ones, does it have an end switch?  If not, running a "ready" light is going to be tougher.  

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 15, 2013)

Hello AC & Fred

Just finished digging out from 10-12" snow storm...

Yes all of the pipe seems are now sealed up with hi temp rtv. One of the pictures was during installation. I have mixed size splits most of them are no bigger than 8". All of my would this year and a little for next season was processed for my old boiler so I will just have to make do?

When I got the WG the single aqua-stat was bad so I took an old double Honeywell off of my old Van Wert, It has setting for a hi lo and a dif setting to 25 degrees. Could you please post a larger picture of the whole aqua-stat that's on your WG.

To tell you the truth I have no Idea how the Honeywell damper actuator works. When the WG calls for heat the blower comes on and the damper starts to open (it takes 15 or so sec's) It seems that power is live to it and it just seems to open all the way and just hum there?

Fred thanks for the tips. I have a heat shield over part of the pipe and I will be extending that as well. Hve any of you WG owners ever had a chimney fire? is it common? I ran the WG for a week and cleaned about 2 cups of flaky dry creosote from the horizontal pipe. The chimney it self is clean completely. What are the normal things to expect with build up in pipes and chimney?

thanks


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## Fred61 (Dec 15, 2013)

You shouldn't have had any creosote in the flue pipe. What you will get is a build-up of fly ash similar to what you're getting in your cyclone drawer so keep an eye out for that. It builds up quickly.


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## avc8130 (Dec 15, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Hello AC & Fred
> 
> Just finished digging out from 10-12" snow storm...
> 
> ...



That picture I posted shows the part number right in the middle of the aquastat.  That stat does the emergency "high" limit shut off as well as the "cold" limit shut off.  Another aquastat is the "run" aquastat that controls the boilers firing within those extremes. 

Can you post a better picture of your actuator?  The newer one is a Honeywell unit with an end switch.  What happens is power is supplied to the motor and it begins to open the door.  When the door is full open it pushes on the "end switch" and that sends power over to the "ready" light.  This is similar to how zone valves work in that when their end switch makes it powers the circulator pump.

As Fred said, you will get a build up of fly ash but there should be NO creosote.  

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 16, 2013)

I don't remember the manufacturer's name of the draft actuator but I do recall what it looks like and that appears to be the original. It was simply a spring return gearmotor that came up to a stop and stalled until power was removed. On those early models the ready light illuminated as soon as power was applied to the combustion fan and damper either by the spring wound timer or the normal operation when the aquastat was calling for heat.

I wish I had kept that motor when I sent the unit down the road. I've had numerous uses for that type of motor since it's been gone. I'm a tinkerer.


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## muncybob (Dec 16, 2013)

I did have a small fire in my horizontal run and looking back on it  I believe it was caused by me trying to extend the nozzle an extra season....lesson learned for sure! I think the highest risk for a pipe fire is doing what I did and also not checking the cyclone on a regular basis to be sure it's not plugged. I make a habit during my weekly cleaning to check it  by sticking my thumb up into the bottom of the "cone". It has been plugged up only once in my 4+ years and  that was probably a lot to do with wet wood.


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## muncybob (Dec 16, 2013)

How old is that WG? Is it carbon steel or stainless?


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## avc8130 (Dec 16, 2013)

muncybob said:


> How old is that WG? Is it carbon steel or stainless?



"Very" and "carbon" I'm sure.

ac


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## WireNut (Dec 16, 2013)

I just finished installing my Wood Gun and redoing ALL of my heating pipes last month, so I am by no means an expert.  I recently went through the huffing/puffing (blow your house down) problems, and still get it a little bit but it's not crazy bad.  I've also got a Carbon Steel E140 (I got the last one...all SS now).  Some of the biggest problems I've had:

1) Sealing the pipe to the chimney.  Dear god did I use a ton of silicone to seal the chimney.  That and some 1" rope.  The pressure from the fan in the gun will push smoke out of any hole it can, or so it seems.  I found the best way to do it was to get a small smoky fire (cardboard) in the gun.  Turn on the fan, and see where the thick smoke is coming out of.  Turn it off.  Silicone those areas till you think you're using too much, and then put some more on.  Let it dry.  Don't try to test it again until it dries, or you'll just push the smoke through the wet silicone.  Repeat until you have all of the leaks.  I had to put silicone on the outside of the joints, putting it in the joints wasn't enough.

2) Puffing out of the air intake.  I had this problem at first, and it was really bad.  The guys here helped me out quite a bit on it, and it seems that my problem was that I was burning maple I cut last year, and it was ~15% moisture content....far too dry.  So the fuel was all vaporizing quickly and the boiler was heating up to a high temperature.  This caused more gas....and finally the mixture was too much gas to oxygen, and the firebox was too hot (like fred said).  I was using small splits (the branches) and found if I put more then a 1/4 to 1/3 firebox I would run into the problem about 20 to 30 minutes into the burn (I batch burn).  The solution I've been using....since I can't make the wood bigger...is to increase the overall moisture content in the firebox.  So now I only put about 1/3 of the firebox with that low moisture maple, and I stick a 30% moisture oak log (or some splits) in.  This has really decreased the amount of puffing I get out of the air intake.  On the down side, the ash in my pan is wetter (consistency of mortor/wet sand) and I'm starting to get some creosote where I didn't with the dryer wood.  Next year I will pipe the air intake outside.

3) Get a smoke hood.  I ordered one with my boiler, but they forgot to put it in the shipment.  Rather then have them ship it, I got a refund for the hood.  My mistake.  I was planning to put the WG in the garage, but through a range of factors, it ended up in the basement.  If I open the loading door when there's more then 1/3 of a box of wood, it will spit smoke out the door.  Now I love the smell of the smoke, but not everyone does....my dogs for example.  And it's eventually going to deposit soot and whatnot on the ceiling.  So, get the smoke hood if you don't want to smoke yourself out as you experiment.

4) Boiler protection valve.  This thing is the most annoying thing I've ever used.  I will most likely remove it next year.  My spring check valve on the supply side of my WG -> heating manifold constantly chatters.  If the WG is pushing 180 degree water to the radiators, and the water in the radiators coming back is at 60 degrees, the thermostat in the boiler protection valve (140 degree thermostat) constantly swings back and forth to keep the return to the WG at 140.  This works, I can see the return temperature at 140.  The problem is that the spring check valve doesn't like the constant change in pressure.  So I've got 4 zone pumps fighting with the WG pump for the water.  It would be much easier just to push the 60 degree water back to the wood gun instead of worrying about the boiler protection valve.  I was all about worrying about the thermal shock to the boiler, but I've gotton over that when I've seen the boiler cool to a 130 temperature on the bottom and a 200 degree temperature on the top (I have some dallas DS18b20 temperature sensors in aquastat wells in the boiler).

5) Don't clean the "big" tubes with the boiler running.  The fan doesn't like the ash rake.  Speaking of that, I didn't notice it in the pictures, did you get the tool from the guy you bought the boiler from?  I clean my tubes once a week, sometimes twice since I'm still learning the operation and what wood does what to the boiler....and the rake does a great job.  So far only 1 3 gallon pail of ash in about a month of running the gun.

6) If you install a boiler drain instead of a plug on the front of the WG, make sure that it will clear the bottom door.  I initially had mine set up normally, but the door wouldn't open, so I had to give it a 90 degree turn and the door barely clears it.  I used this to fill the system, which was much faster then a 1/2" fill line.


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## maple1 (Dec 16, 2013)

On 4) above: is that a Danfoss valve that's causing the chattering? I think I would want to keep a boiler protection valve in to limit boiler condensation, especially if you're seeing temps as low as 60 coming back. It's more about condensation than thermal shock. I thought the thermostat in those opened & closed gradually rather than a lot of quick cycles - maybe try a different one?


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## WireNut (Dec 16, 2013)

maple1 said:


> On 4) above: is that a Danfoss valve that's causing the chattering? I think I would want to keep a boiler protection valve in to limit boiler condensation, especially if you're seeing temps as low as 60 coming back. It's more about condensation than thermal shock. I thought the thermostat in those opened & closed gradually rather than a lot of quick cycles - maybe try a different one?



It's a Termovar.  I'll have to look into the condensation, I haven't had an issue with it up till now....however I do have that valve in pace, so you could very well be right!


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## Fred61 (Dec 16, 2013)

Maple is right!


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## avc8130 (Dec 16, 2013)

I put a drain on the front of mine.  I had no interference, but I used a 1/4 turn ball valve.  I originally had it so the handle was perpendicular to the floor but that made it annoying to sweep under as the broom wouldn't fit so I turned it parallel to the ground.

I spoke to the guys at AHS about the Termovar and Danfoss.  None of them had anything good to say about them.  

If I was batch burning to storage I would use a real "loading unit".

ac


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## WireNut (Dec 16, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> I put a drain on the front of mine.  I had no interference, but I used a 1/4 turn ball valve.  I originally had it so the handle was perpendicular to the floor but that made it annoying to sweep under as the broom wouldn't fit so I turned it parallel to the ground.
> 
> I spoke to the guys at AHS about the Termovar and Danfoss.  None of them had anything good to say about them.
> 
> ...




Not sure I know what you mean by a real loading unit?  I have the loading unit made by Termovar....which consists of the valve and a pump....and that's what's causing my chattering check valve (but only if the return is below 140)


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## avc8130 (Dec 16, 2013)

WireNut said:


> Not sure I know what you mean by a real loading unit?  I have the loading unit made by Termovar....which consists of the valve and a pump....and that's what's causing my chattering check valve (but only if the return is below 140)



Oh, that is what I meant.  Haha.  One of my coworkers has that unit (CoalReaper).  Maybe he will chime in.

ac


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## maple1 (Dec 16, 2013)

I've got an LK810 loading unit. Also have a couple of check valves in my system (ordinary swing checks). I never hear them chatter, and the temps on the loading unit move gradually - never see any ups & downs. When starting from cold & the unit starts after my boiler gets hot, the cold return inlet on my boiler goes right up to 140 & stays right there until my storage gets above that on the bottom. Then it will rise further, slowly. I never hear the loading unit make any noise either. Wonder if it has to do with you having no storage therefore your return temps fluctuate a lot? Seems to me I read somewhere about taking the internal check valve that's inside the loading unit itself out under certain circumstances - wonder if this is when that was done?


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## Coal Reaper (Dec 16, 2013)

its silent.  so is the pump, have to touch it to feel if its on.  LK810.  is yours possibly seeing extra flow from another pump in your system that may be "competing" with the thermostat check?


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## Coal Reaper (Dec 16, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> its silent.  so is the pump, have to touch it to feel if its on.  LK810.  is yours possibly seeing extra flow from another pump in your system that may be "competing" with the thermostat check?


I also run mime at speed two and use it ONLY to move water to and fro storage. Rather than hijack this thread further perhaps start a new one and post a sketch of your sysem.  Maybe you are asking it to move too much water or head is too high? I dont think you could expect it to perform as well as a stand alone circ without the loading unit portion.  I just never gave mine another thought after hooking it up other then selecting what speed to run. It operates smoothly just as maple described.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 16, 2013)

draft actuator honeywelk


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 16, 2013)

label inside cover


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 16, 2013)

with cover off


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 16, 2013)

Thanks Wire nut for all of your information. On # 2 I have noticed that I get the worst puffing when i load the WG for a long burn like over night or when I have to leave for work. Both of these are the worst time to have any issues. I have made some improvements over the last 3 weeks from all the help here, what a great website! tonight it will be down below zero, I hope the WG runs well!

My WG is carbon steel but I have no Idea how old it is the guy I bought it from said it was 10 years old but I'm not sure if that is correct? 

Thnaks


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## Fred61 (Dec 16, 2013)

I'm guessing it's 20 years old.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 16, 2013)

Fred 
How long have you heard these WG's lasting? Whats the oldest one on this users? I guess I need to be careful how much I put into this thing. Where do they tend to rot out?


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## avc8130 (Dec 17, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Fred
> How long have you heard these WG's lasting? Whats the oldest one on this users? I guess I need to be careful how much I put into this thing. Where do they tend to rot out?



Fred's lasted about a week...


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## avc8130 (Dec 17, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> label inside cover




Green,

From reading that, I get the impression that there IS an end switch.  That would be how to wire up the "ready" light.

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 17, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Fred
> How long have you heard these WG's lasting? Whats the oldest one on this users? I guess I need to be careful how much I put into this thing. Where do they tend to rot out?


Mine only lasted eight years and then was retired to the junkyard. Over those years I fought with numerous problems and quirks associated with the Wood Gun. over the last two or three years I had it in service the firebox became porous and I had a welder patch it several times. It then became un-fixable in my mind so I junked it.

I believe there's a reason they went with stainless. I think the corrosion problem was more than they could overcome.

I was actually surprised to see a unit as old as yours pop up here.


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## muncybob (Dec 17, 2013)

I was previously in touch with a person that had a WG still running and it was over 20 years old. She described it as a hate/love relationship 

In my 5th season and have learned a lot, so it's mostly love for me at this point.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 17, 2013)

Thanks AC fred and Muncybob,

I worked with a guy that had one and that was over 20 years ago, Ive rarely run in to him much over the years but if I do I will be asking about the WG. 

Fred how do you like the EKO 25? I'm sorry that the WG did not work out for you, I cant believe that in just 8 years the WG failed. My last boiler the Van Wert must have been close to 30 years old. I bet it had a couple of hundred cord through it. I would say that I really liked that boiler sad to see go.

Muncybob, did you buy the WG new? What was the deciding factors that lead you to chose the WG? I have no Idea how long this WG will last, I would love to get a few years out of it, im hoping that I will come to at least like it by then... I guess I should start researching my next wood boiler! At any rate I had -9 degrees this morning Im glad i was burning wood instead of oil!


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## avc8130 (Dec 17, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> At any rate I had -9 degrees this morning Im glad i was burning wood instead of oil!



...and isn't that what it is ALL about?

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 17, 2013)

Wow, where did you find such a warm spot in Vermont. Here it was -13.

On my sixth year with the EKO. Like it so far. Much simpler than the Wood Gun. Fewer pieces of hardware to fail. I batch burn for about 4 or so hours each evening to charge storage then turn the boiler off and I'm good 'till the next evening. When I lit the fire this evening the storage temperature was reading 121 degrees. Not bad for -13 over night and it never got above +8 all day today.

It was +6 degrees when we turned in last night and when my wife looked at the digital thermometer this morning and read 13 she commented "hey it warmed up over night". I had to point out to her that there was a minus sign in front of that number. We are still amazed that you can't tell what's going on outside in our super insulated house. In most homes you can feel it when outdoor temperatures are that low. The next comment she made was "and the boiler isn't even running". She still doesn't get it.


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## muncybob (Dec 17, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Thanks AC fred and Muncybob,
> 
> Muncybob, did you buy the WG new? What was the deciding factors that lead you to chose the WG? I have no Idea how long this WG will last, I would love to get a few years out of it, im hoping that I will come to at least like it by then... I guess I should start researching my next wood boiler! At any rate I had -9 degrees this morning Im glad i was burning wood instead of oil!


Bought it new...went down to AHS in my friends pickup and dropped into my basement to next day with a skid steer. I knew initially I could not afford storage and the old oil boiler just had to go, so I decided on a combo unit. The WG and one other boiler were the only ones that would fit thru our basement entry and the other boiler's sales rep let me down during the research phase. I got straight answers from AHS and great support when I needed it. Initial learning curve was a bit steep for me(never heated with wood before) but it's all good now. If I had known how little the oil burner would be used I probably never would have gone with a combo unit and probably got an electric boiler for the 3 days or so per heating season we are not home. The area that the oil tanks sit could have accommodated the storage tanks...oh well.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 18, 2013)

AC I live near the CT river in Rockingham and it is always warmer here. My friends family lives in Island Pond VT they had -33. AC do you use your EKO year round for DWH production? I dont suppose you saved your refractory before you junked the WG? Did AHS own WG when you bought yours? Did they guarantee the WG at all? 

On the plus side I was able to size the load correctly this morning before work with little to no known puffing. I was gone for 10 hours and there was still coals in the fb and the WG temp was @ 175. I know that it was a lot warmer today like low to mid 20's but this is definitely a success. My old boiler would not have done that amount of time. I have concluded that if I use small fuel loads to get the WG to normal operating temp and then add a full load in the fb to get me through the night or day @ work. This technique seems to have limited the puffing? 

Muncybob thanks for sharing your purchase decision. I have heard mostly good things about the WG  and when I saw this one on craigslist I jumped on it, I had little time to find another boiler as my old boiler gave up in late November. I figured this would be the least risk to learn about the gassifer boilers. I have to say this week has been much better than last week as far as positive progress!


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## avc8130 (Dec 19, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> AC I live near the CT river in Rockingham and it is always warmer here. My friends family lives in Island Pond VT they had -33. AC do you use your EKO year round for DWH production? I dont suppose you saved your refractory before you junked the WG? Did AHS own WG when you bought yours? Did they guarantee the WG at all?
> 
> On the plus side I was able to size the load correctly this morning before work with little to no known puffing. I was gone for 10 hours and there was still coals in the fb and the WG temp was @ 175. I know that it was a lot warmer today like low to mid 20's but this is definitely a success. My old boiler would not have done that amount of time. I have concluded that if I use small fuel loads to get the WG to normal operating temp and then add a full load in the fb to get me through the night or day @ work. This technique seems to have limited the puffing?
> 
> Muncybob thanks for sharing your purchase decision. I have heard mostly good things about the WG  and when I saw this one on craigslist I jumped on it, I had little time to find another boiler as my old boiler gave up in late November. I figured this would be the least risk to learn about the gassifer boilers. I have to say this week has been much better than last week as far as positive progress!



The WG works best if you keep it at temp.  If you let it drop and then fill the box up, but the time it burns enough wood to get to temp the rest of the wood is charred and dry so it burns fast.  

What did you pay for it?

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 19, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Green Mt Heat New Member Joined: Dec 11, 2013 Messages: 15 Loc: Vermont USA AC I live near the CT river in Rockingham and it is always warmer here. My friends family lives in Island Pond VT they had -33. AC do you use your EKO year round for DWH production? I dont suppose you saved your refractory before you junked the WG? Did AHS own WG when you bought yours? Did they guarantee the WG at all?


AC is the guy with the Wood Gun. Fred is the guy that had a Wood Gun and now has an EKO. I live a little north of you an at a higher elevation so that explains the difference in morning temperatures.

To answer your question, no, I don't use it year round. It's in my basement and I don't want to add heat to the house in the summer and then cool it with my mini splits. I use a Geyser heat pump which I installed last year to heat my water in the summer.

The Wood Gun was made by Eshland and had a 5 year warrantee.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 20, 2013)

Ac the issue is if i put more than 25-30% in the firebox I risk getting a lot of puffing. I guess my wood must be to dry (processed this past spring). I had no idea this WG would be this fussy, I'm going to loose my mind. I settled @ $1250.00 for it.

Sorry Fred not sure what i was thinking I knew you had the EKO. Must be the WG making me crazy!


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## CTFIRE (Dec 20, 2013)

Green - Have you tried closing the air damper to 3/4


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## Coal Reaper (Dec 20, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Must be the WG making me crazy!


now you fit in!


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 20, 2013)

ctfire.  I have tried the damper in many positions, wide open seems to be the best so far. When it's puffing it seems like its starving for oxygen. If you open the fuel door and let more oxygen in the fb the puffing stops.


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## Fred61 (Dec 21, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> now you fit in!


Chuckle....Guffaw.....Snort

I'm still crazy from my experience with the WG after several years without it but here are a couple questions.

What's the condition of the plug in the front of the fire tube?. Could there be an air leaking by?

Another wild thought. Not likely but other Wood Gunners can chime in. The condition of the fan blades could be an issue if they are warn enough to diminish their pumping ability. I say "not likely" because they are quite heavy duty for the job and just the fact that the unit has been around this many years tells me that it must have limited use in the past.


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## avc8130 (Dec 21, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Ac the issue is if i put more than 25-30% in the firebox I risk getting a lot of puffing. I guess my wood must be to dry (processed this past spring). I had no idea this WG would be this fussy, I'm going to loose my mind. I settled @ $1250.00 for it.
> 
> Sorry Fred not sure what i was thinking I knew you had the EKO. Must be the WG making me crazy!



Green,

What do you have on the end of your air intake?  Do you have a tube that just goes to the floor or do you have it piped somewhere?  

Are all of your nozzles open and free to flow?  

Is there an access to look at your air damper/seal?  Is it full open when the boiler is firing?  

Have you inspected the boiler at all before firing?  Are ALL of the passageways clear?  

Huffing IS a lack of sufficient oxygen for the fuel charge.  For some reason you are getting excessive wood gassing in the upper chamber that isn't getting brought down into the lower chamber.  

Have you tried burning with the manual damper 3/4 close FROM THE START?  One of the possibilities is to not allow it to get to the point of huffing.

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 22, 2013)

Thanks guys,

Fred you didn't happen to strip any parts out of your old WG before you scrapped it did you ( I know it was a long time ago)?

I piped the intake outside after the puffing started. it loops to the floor then vertical about 4 1/2'

The nozzles are worn in the front and the plug has a odd ceramic block above it? The new WG has a plug with a different shape. Do you think the gap above the plug would cause and issue? 

What is the "map" or "trail" of the whole combustion circuit? The air comes in from the fresh air valve then through the fire grate in the fb... does it then divide equally to both outer tubes? and then finally through the large steel tube on the bottom? 

I ran the wg all day today with small charges and limited load (temps upper 30's low 40's) no issues at all.  The fewer times it cycles the fewer the issues.

I have not tried starting off @ 3/4 closed damper but I can give it a shot.

Thanks again for all the imput


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## avc8130 (Dec 22, 2013)

Green,

The design is the air comes in the intake, then through the firebox over the wood and down through the nozzles.  Then it heads BACK to the rear door.  Turns around and comes FORWARD through the side refractory passages.  Then down through the big tube in the bottom towards the fan.  Then through the swirl chamber and out through the cyclone.

There is a decent graphic of this here:
http://alternateheatingsystems.com/WoodGasification.aspx

I'm wondering if that front plug is your problem.  It looks worn to the point that the intake could pull air right through that rather than back and through the refractory. 

I suggest you give Darren a call at AHS.  Speak to either him or Jeff.  Both are excellent and really know their boilers.  I found spare parts were very reasonably priced, a new front plug might be a decent start.

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 22, 2013)

Sorry, no spare parts. When I decided to hook a chain to the monster and drag it out into the driveway, I wanted to see no part of it again. I have regretted the move since. The tankless coil could have been quite valuable as well as the draft motor and damper motor, aquastats, etc.

On the plug: That "odd shaped piece" is a filler usually attached to the round plug in order to close off the odd shape created when the cast the refractory. It looks to have a small leak that could blow/(suck) by but I don't believe this is the root problem. If you have any refractory cement around you could cast yourself a replacement in short order. Today would be a good day since it's quite warm out. I believe your local hardware store (J&G or something like that) are open today. I don't think you would gum things up if you just trowel a little material on while in place. If you don't clean it first, it probably adhere to the surrounding refractory.

As AC suggested above, check for any restrictions in your intake. Confirm that the air damper is opening completely. From there you may need to remove the fan and check for restrictions on the pressure side. I assume that when you moved the unit you had removed the cyclone. Could anything have gotten in there that could be restricting the flow? Above, I suggested taking a look at the fan. Did you move the unit with the fan installed?

Could the refractory on the rear door have fallen in on the tubes, restricting on that end?


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## infinitymike (Dec 22, 2013)

Hey green

Sorry to chime in so late in the game.
That's an interesting center tube plug set up. Not sure if that's the issue.

I really think the huffing is ONLY coming from too small of a split.

The WG is not fussy at all.
It's a Beast and loves big, heavy, manly splits, not these little wimpy playing card sized splits that the other guys need.

I learned the hard way. I started splitting wood before the WG was connected  and I listened to what I was reading in here. Everyone else was saying to split to the size of a playing card 
That is way to small for this beast.
And I was huffing and puffing like a big bad wolf.

I have now learned and  the smallest I will split is the size of a 4x4 fence post. 6x6 is better and 6x8 even better.
Moisture around 25% is good too.

I had my first case of huffing in over a year, last week. The splits were just to small.

Unfortunately I have 4 cord of oak that is split like a playing card from
October 2011. I have to start burning that now. Another mistake was to let those skinny splits season as long as they have.

This winter  I've been burning cherry and maple that was split 6x6 around April of 2013 and it burned like a dream. Unfortunately I just ran out.
It gasified right way and there was no smoke or huffing. Just beautiful heat shimmers coming from the stack and a nice and toasty house. I will let you know how this oak burns. I just put a small load in this morning to take the chill out our the house since the out temps are almost 60*  right now.

But not to worry the temps will drop this week and that will be the true test of this stuff.

Anyone want to buy 4 cords of oak split like a playing card? 

Just hang in there. You be just fine. Once you get past the learning curve things will smooth out.

Have you called AHS for any of their advice?
They came out with an EPA plug that is to be put in one of the side tubes and is claimed to help with huffing. I haven't gotten one yet but a couple other guys have and they seem to notice the difference.


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## WireNut (Dec 24, 2013)

Agreed, my huffing only occurs when I use wood that is too dry or too small.  If I stick big old 12" rounds in and nothing else I don't have any problems with huffing.  My theory is a combination of wet big pieces is best, contrary to what you'd think.  I've tried all sorts of combinations, and what I've found is that fewer of the small dry maple splits cause the boiler to huff less.  If I ONLY load oak I split this past spring, the boiler runs like a champ.  Those are big pieces with a 30-35% moisture rating on my meter.  The Maple are small splits (think branches and "wood stove size" since I split them before I got the gun). and only at about 15-20% moisture.  I one time loaded the boiler with only maple.  I acutally got visible smoke out of the air intake.

Since I need to burn up the maple, I've been just putting a few sticks in with a couple of big oak logs  I'm also thinking of trying one of those plugs.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 25, 2013)

What A great bunch of guys you are! Merry Christmas!

I have a break through I think?

Last night I had a bunch of family and friends over and one of them is an engineer the other my brother inlaw who is very mechanical with lots of experience. Their professional opinion was not enough airflow. This led us to the fan which appears to have been modified at some point in the wg's life. The fan cage itself is pretty bent up and at initial inspection it seems that the motor was replaced and the gasket assy has been poorly modified. Most importantly we are not sure what the spec measurement of the tolerance between the squirrel cage fan and the fire tube in the boiler itself. Their opinion if there is to much distance between the end of the fire tube and the fan itself drastically reducing the cfm's. We removed part of the poorly designed modification and got the fan cage at least 3/4" closer to the fire tube but there is a lot of damage to the motor shaft and the fan itself. I will call AHS tomorrow and price a new fan assy, I also found deterioration of one of the ceramic blocks, I will price those as well. 

The next challenge will be how much $ i want to put into this thing!

Fred when you had your WG was your heating system pressurized or an open system like those found on outside boilers? I just wondering why yours failed so quickly? And Im also a little concerned how long/ how much $ I should dump into this one that i have.

AC thanks for the explanation of the gas/ air flow. Now that I have seen the fan/ fire tube area and studied it a little I totally understand.

Infinitymike ( I love your youtube videos!) and wirenut  thanks for your encouragement and insight. I have about 8 cord of wood 20" long and the biggest split is 6-7".....All of this wood was processed for my old boiler that I didn't plan on parting ways with so I will have to struggle through the year. I will ask about the EPA plug.

Fred how highly would you recommend the EKO? What issues have you had, how hard is it to get parts for? Have you always run storage with it? I really like the ideas and ruggedness of the WG but I need to keep an open mind in case cost/ value becomes an issue.

Thanks again


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## infinitymike (Dec 26, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> What A great bunch of guys you are! Merry Christmas!
> 
> I have a break through I think?
> 
> ...



Merry Christmas. 
I agree this place has a bunch of great guys who really try to help. 
I'm glad you found the answer. 
How much did you pay for it?
Do you know how old it is? 

Thanks, I shot a couple more videos this weekend. 

I don't think a new fan assembly can be more than a few hundred. The center nozzle bricks cost me about $100. 
My thinking is you have it hooked up, dump a few bucks into and go a year or two more. If bigger problems develop dump it and get a new Gun


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## Fred61 (Dec 26, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> What A great bunch of guys you are! Merry Christmas!
> 
> I have a break through I think?
> 
> ...


I'm glad you found the problem. I hope your friends' diagnosis is correct. Show's you how wrong I was in dismissing any problem with the fan since that seems to be the only area that wasn't a problem with mine.

My unit was pressurized but like I said, there has to be a reason they don't offer carbon steel vessels any more. The one thing that I keep going over in my mind is that, like you, in order to keep the smoke from the puffing out of the house, I also plumbed the intake air to the outside. I'm wondering if that cold air entering the unit caused condensation on the back wall since that is the only location that became porous. It did cause the intake area to be completely coated with oozing, smelly creosote that would drip into the damper box and actually flow into the fire chamber. But it must have been something they had planned for since the tube is angled to flow down into the firebox. I want to point out that I had several issues with the Wood Gun. It's the leaking vessel that was the "coup de gras" but it was perhaps a blessing in that it freed me from all the other problems I was struggling with.

I'm not going to tell you that you should own an EKO but I would steer you away from a Wood Gun. I am perfectly happy with my EKO and do not long for other units described here on this forum or others I have seen in person. Haven't had any issues with the EKO except that I'm disappointed with the life of the nozzle but as it turns out after being on this forum and watching as more of the members' units mature, the EKO nozzle appears to be no better or worse than other brands.

I didn't run storage with the EKO the first year and it wasn't fun. My house has a very low heat load and it really gummed things up. However, even if your boiler is perfectly sized to your load and runs clean during the design temperatures, there are the shoulder seasons where the load is too low and you will have excessive idling. It's not good for the boiler plus it pollutes the air.

I hope you're not placing value on "ruggedness". Finesse and good engineering beat out ruggedness every time. Rugged??? The WWII power Wagon was RUGGED.
It was so rugged that if you ran over a cigar butt with the right front wheel the left front and right rear came off the ground but I'll bet you don't want one. Ruggedness means nothing without good engineering.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 26, 2013)

infinitymike Please keep posting videos on youtube! You are pretty much the only wg on there! I was so happy to find yours and see what another one looked like and listen to you explain how it works. I did hear you mention puffing on your video as well as bridging. What is "bridging?"

Mike have you replaced any of the ceramic brick in your WG? did you do all of them or one or two at a time? do you have any tips for replacing just one or two in the middle?

I have no idea how old it is. The guy I bought it from said he bought it new about 10 years ago, but Im not sure if that is correct? So far i have  a little over $1500.00 in it. Im going to call AHS this morning and ask about the fan assy and a few bricks. I hope its not over a few hundred, as I don't want to go over 2k with the risk that this springs a leak.

Thanks


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## maple1 (Dec 26, 2013)

Bridging = wood hanging up as it burns, creating air spaces under the wood. Mine does that once in a while, I just open the door & knock it down a bit. Ideally you want the wood to collapse onto itself & the coal bed as it burns.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 26, 2013)

Hi Fred

Thanks for your input on the EKO. I understand that boilers are personal preference and I guess that you can research all you want but in the end what you end up with is what you are committed to until you final part ways with it. 

With the WG what I meant by rugged was that it seems well built very durable 1/4" plate steel simple controls that are all domestically sourced and no PLC solid state controls no circuit boards. I also like the idea of the 30" fire box and the 14"x14" door. Those two features mean a lot less time processing wood and more time spent with my family. They claim 10-15 years out of the nozzle although im sure it depends how much it is used. I understand your point that "rugged" does not mean well engineered product. And I love your power wagon analogy! I had a late 70's toyota landcruiser FJ40 when I was in high school. That was a rugged beast and for the most part it was over engineered, but if I were still driving it today I would have consumed most of the worlds resources just to keep it going as well as major back issues because how rough it rode!

How many nozzles have you replaced in the EKO? How much do they cost and how long of a project is it? Have you had any control issues switches circuit boards fans etc... It there a dealer that stock all the parts near by in the USA? If you had to do it again would you go with a EKO?

My friends parents have one of those greenwood boilers, they seem to like it but that was a few years ago when i went to check it out, it was their first year of operation. Now that company is out of business and reopened with another name and redesigned unit?


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2013)

Green,

Merry Christmas!  I'm glad you investigated your gun a bit more.  I'm curious what the previous owner thought they were accomplishing with the fan mods.  Could you post some pics?  (We LOVE pics on this board if you can't tell.)

You won't get 10-15 years out of the NOZZLE.  The nozzle is the part with the slots in it that all of the gas exits the wood chamber through.  That wears relatively quickly.  You will get 10-15 CORDS most likely from that component.  Most seem to report 2-3 year life, more or less regardless of boiler type.

10-15 years is the going timeline of the REFRACTORY itself.  The refractory is the large cement mass with the 3 tubes that the gassification occurs in.  If you keep your nozzles in good shape, the refractory will last much longer. 

You'll probably find that the fan assembly might be a bit pricey.  The biggest problem is the high-quality Baldor motor that AHS uses.  This isn't a "problem" as it is one of the best electric motors available, but it is pricey to show for it.

Sine the WG is so "simple" and it doesn't have secondary air injection or adjustment, airflow through the boiler is critical.  Get that sorted and I bet you will have much better performance.

AHS just sold the LAST carbon steel Wood Gun a few months ago.  It was sold to "Wire Nut" on this board.  If you don't have any leaks at this point, get the fan sorted out and see if you can get it to perform for you.  

ac


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## Fred61 (Dec 26, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> With the WG what I meant by rugged was that it seems well built very durable 1/4" plate steel simple controls that are all domestically sourced and no PLC solid state controls no circuit boards. I also like the idea of the 30" fire box and the 14"x14" door. Those two features mean a lot less time processing wood and more time spent with my family. They claim 10-15 years out of the nozzle although im sure it depends how much it is used. I understand your point that "rugged" does not mean well engineered product. And I love your power wagon analogy! I had a late 70's toyota landcruiser FJ40 when I was in high school. That was a rugged beast and for the most part it was over engineered, but if I were still driving it today I would have consumed most of the worlds resources just to keep it going as well as major back issues because how rough it rode!


1/4" plate is no better than aluminum foil if there's something inherent in the engineering that causes it to corrode through. I personally think that the controls are "primitive' as opposed to "simple". I'm thinking that you have more confidence in solid state controls and circuit boards than you think since I'm receiving your posts that originated on a computer as opposed to a telegraph. I wouldn't have any way to respond to you since I'm not equipped to receive and send with that equipment. I can't help thinking that the designers at AHS aren't sitting around wishing they weren't trapped in this design and are not able to make the improvements necessary to compete with the Tarms, Varms and Ekos in the marketplace.

My center bricks (nozzles) on the WG needed to be replaced every year and sometimes more often. I've not replaced the nozzle on the EKO but I have one on the shelf. When I saw the wear on the nozzle after the third year, I fashioned a firebrick overlay to protect the nozzle from eroding any further. On third year with that set-up. I need to change the brick every year at a cost of two bucks or so. Someone can correct me if they wish but I think I paid fifty bucks for the replacement EKO nozzle.




Green Mt Heat said:


> How many nozzles have you replaced in the EKO? How much do they cost and how long of a project is it? Have you had any control issues switches circuit boards fans etc... It there a dealer that stock all the parts near by in the USA? If you had to do it again would you go with a EKO?


I've had no control issues so far. I hope this conversation isn't jinxing me. New Horizon in West Virginia is the importer and the only thing I've bought from them is the spare nozzle and a replacement door gasket however there are others on the board that could give you their opinion on other components.

Would I buy another EKO? The short answer is YES It's perfect for me. No fancy controls, perfect size for my heating needs and in my mind, very efficient. I batch burn every evening for 3 to 4.5 hours to charge my storage and the unit is powered off until the next evening. I haven't had a fire overnight since installing my storage.


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2013)

Green,

A fair bit has changed (although not the inherent design concepts) since Fred has owned a Wood Gun.

"Modern" Wood Guns have "fancy" controls if the buyer would like them.  I prefer my aquastats that Home Depot sells.

AHS has changed the nozzle cement material a few times.  The nozzles of today seem to have much longer life.  I am on my 2nd heating season, and it looks like I should be able to get a 3rd from them.  Nozzle life has a lot to do with type and quantity of wood, so it seems no matter what boiler the experiences vary widely.

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 26, 2013)

Hello AC

OK I understand now. Yes the nozzles are ok on my WG and the guy I bought it from gave me an extra set when I bought it. It was the refractory that AHS said should last 10-15 years.
I talked to Darren there today and he was very helpful. i need to send him some dimensions on the back of the boiler to see about mounting a whole new fan assy, Darren said he would help me weigh out the pros and cons of spending the cash on a new fan assy $540.00 on a boiler of this age. He is also selling me a "EPA" ceramic plug that AHS has been working on that helps when burning smaller splits of low moisture wood $45.00. This plug blocks off one of the ceramic tubes, left or right what ever one you want to. I will block off the one that has deterioration in it as those bricks will need replacing at some point anyway.

See a few more pictures of the fan.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 26, 2013)

These are 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
 extra nozzles I got with the WG. The guy that I bought the Wg from new a guy at a foundry and had a set of cast iron nozzles made up. Thats what im running in it now.


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2013)

CAST IRON Nozzles?  Now that is a crazy idea!

I'm trying to picture what is "different" about your fan assembly at this point.  Did you take any pictures of the "modifications"?  

How was Darren's reaction to the age of your Wood Gun?

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 26, 2013)

Ya I thought the same thing about the nozzles although a neat idea. At the time (Christmas eve) I didnt think to take any pictures of the mods. They had some odd set up ( I thought it was oem as of 12-24) but that is def not the case. There was t different plates on the fan set up.....explaining it from the motor working to the boiler it went some
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 thing like this.....the motor the stock backing plate then a 1/2"-5/8" rope gasket coiled up that was sandwiched between another plate (18 gauge steel??). the 18 ga plate was the mating surface to the big 12" heat exchanger tube on the boiler that was sealed with hi temp rtv. The issue was they never set the distance off the main heat exchanger tube (darren says it should be about 1/4") thats what I have it sat to now aprx. What I understand it the farther away the squirrel cage is away from the heat exchanger tube the fewer cfm's you get. 

AC do you have a WG? if so what model is it and what age? Darren took my s# on the WG and was going to do his best to come up with an age but on the phone he was not sure because it dates before AHS. He is UPSing me an EPA plug that he says have been know to help with the huffing (still under testing) I will be giving them feedback.

Darren was great to talk with and was really interested in helping me out taking into consideration the age? of my WG.


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2013)

I do own a Wood Gun.  I have an E180SS that I bought and installed last year.  I am FAR from an experienced "expert", but I pretty much have the hang of running mine at this point.  

It sounds like your previous owner was a bit of a tinkerer...probably not only in the positive way.  

The fans are a bit finicky, but that isn't a WG thing...that is a squirrel cage fan thing.  That distance sets the air gap and is critical.  Have you seen an improvement?

I got that plug from Darren and put it in last week.  I never really had much of a "huffing" problem, but I figured I'd give the plug a shot.  I have to clean the lower tubes tomorrow so I will know what 1 week's burn with the plug looks like.  

I'm not surprised AHS is helping you out, they are a great bunch of guys who are really committed to their boilers.  If you don't have any leaks I don't see any reason not to keep her up and running.

ac


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 26, 2013)

Thanks AC.

Moving the fan closer seems to have helped a little but I have not tried putting in a full load of wood yet. I just looked up the motor online and it was org. intended for a shallow well water pump. So ya I would say the last guy had a motor failure and just rigged up a motor that they had laying around. Darren did say that it was the right rpm 3450 and the right hp 1/3 so it should be ok as long as the bearing hold out. Im not that comfortable with this WG to throw 600.00 at it for a new fan assy. This thing will probably go another 10 years w/o a leak.....or maybe not?

What made you decide on the WG? What have your biggest issues been, are you using water storage? Is the WG in your house?


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## avc8130 (Dec 26, 2013)

I can't blame you for your hesitation.  If you have the right speed and enough power, I wouldn't worry about a new fan assembly right now.  It is "just" an electric motor after all.

Well...I apparently started the Wood Gun Bible thread when I was boiler shopping:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/thinking-wood-gun-any-advice-or-experience.90643/

After all of my research the Wood Gun just fit my need the best.

I do not have water storage.  I've thought about it a few times, but in reality it just isn't necessary for me.  I got 18 hours out of my Wood Gun on Christmas Eve and that is about the max time I need to go without touching my boiler to suit my winter lifestyle.  Maybe some day I will add storage for convenience, but right now this works for me.

The WG is in my basement and I, personally, wouldn't want it any other way.  I like not having to go outside to deal with my boiler.  It is a bit annoying getting the wood into the basement, but I have my system down pretty well.  I use pallets to store/move my firewood and I place them right outside my basement door.  Each holds ~1/4-1/3 cord.  Then I toss the wood into Rubbermaid janitor "trucks" that are 1 cubic yard to move them over to the boiler.  I have 2 of those also.  

One of my coworkers has a boiler in an outbuilding with 1000 gallons of storage.  He gets away with 1 fire/day in the winter, but he does have to reload to burn enough wood to recharge his storage.  He winds up going out to the building in the dark, snow, cold.  I'll stick to my tshirt/shorts reloads.

My biggest "issue" was my own lack of maintenance.  I neglected to clean my gassification tubes and my horizontal chimney run to the point that I had "plugged" the airflow.  This resulted in a lack of gassification which in turn lead to low flue temps which lead to flue condensation and a boiler that needed a REALLY good cleaning.  The Wood Gun does have very low flue gas temps by design, so too much restriction can slip into condensation.  

Now I have my cleaning schedule where I empty my ash pan every "truck" and clean the lower tubes every "crate".  Other than that it has pretty much been "add wood, get heat".  

ac


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## WireNut (Dec 26, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> AHS just sold the LAST carbon steel Wood Gun a few months ago.  It was sold to "Wire Nut" on this board.  If you don't have any leaks at this point, get the fan sorted out and see if you can get it to perform for you.



Indeed.  My plan for the boiler is batch burning, I'm not into the "on demand" style of burning  I got a CS 140 model for $7000 delivered, which was a huge discount over retail, however I was only able to get it after talking to Darren a few times and explaining my plan for the boiler.  I really think those guys care about how happy customers are with the boiler, and not just making the sale.  I had a couple issues on delivery, and they were minor.  For example, one of my center bricks was broken, and a clip on my cyclone was bent.  They offered to replace both FREE, no shipping or anything.  I didn't claim this on the shipper's form, so they could have easily at least charged me shipping.  Additionally, some of the refractory cement that seals the refractory blocks and keeps the heat from hitting the insulation was cracked.  They were going to send me refractory cement.....even though I could just go to Lowes and pick it up for $5.  There's something to be said about working with a company that has that type of customer service IMO, and I think you've (Green Mt. Heat) seen it just by talking to Darren already.



Green Mt Heat said:


> Im not that comfortable with this WG to throw 600.00 at it for a new fan assy. This thing will probably go another 10 years w/o a leak.....or maybe not?
> 
> What made you decide on the WG? What have your biggest issues been, are you using water storage? Is the WG in your house?



I don't blame you for not wanting to put that kind of cash into the WG yet.  At the price you got it though, if the steel is in good shape you got a great deal, even with $600 more you're not going to get another wood boiler even close to $2100 delivered to your doorstep....I doubt you'd get that kind of output for even double that.  You can always get a local machinist to make you the plates and whatnot you need.  Sometimes a local VoTec school will make it for the cost of materials as well.  

My boiler came with the 10 year warranty, since I got the CS model.  The warranty drops by 10% a year, and only covers certain things.  I'd assume this is the same for most boilers (I'm over simplifying the warranty terms).  I could have bought the SS model for a bit more cash, but the way I figure it, by the time I disconnect it, move it to the basement door, get a backhoe to drag it back out of the basement (my door is barely the width of the boiler), pack it up, ship it, and then do it all over again when it comes back........I'd rather pay a mobile welder who lives down the street to fix any steel issues I have, and otherwise I love to tinker. And that would cost less then the shipping cost to and fro.

I chose a Woodgun because I had read many good things about it, it's solid and simple in it's design, it's very efficient and loves higher moisture wood, it can take 12" round logs without pinching fingers on loading (means less splitting), logs can be 30 inches (32 I think....but that's pushing it), all of the components can be bought at supply houses, and it's ripe for modification to a more electronic system.  That's not to mention that it fits in my basement door, which cut a good number of boilers out.  I was able to easily remove all of the electronics and doors  to have it lowered into the basement.  It has plenty of tappings for the sensors I wanted to add.

One of the biggest points for me was that the unit is made in the USA, only a 4 or 5 hour drive from where I live.  This isn't necessarily a big deal to everyone, but I like to buy US manufactured products when I can.   Add how forthright Darren was with me during the purchase, all of the info they sent me, and the confidence I got after the sale from the customer support......and there you have it....that's how I chose a Wood Gun.  So far, I'm loving it.


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks AC and Wirenut,

AC thanks for starting the WG Bible thread i spent some time there last night and read through a few pages, lots of good information. I agree with you, I like having my boiler downstairs.

I am no stranger to a challenge. My last boiler was in rough shape when I got it and with a bit of work I got over 5 years out of it. When my old boiler sprung a leak  in november it was kind of sudden. I was very excited when I came across the WG on craigs list so I jumped right on it w/o a lot of knowledge of the WG or even what to expect . A guy i used to work with 20 years ago had a WG and talked highly of it. Also my Brother in laws brother bought one a couple of years ago and he loves it. I have grown up heating with wood since i was a kid but this is my first gassifier so I know that I will get it but it will take a little time.

I'm sure with the help here and Darren @ AHS I will get the issues worked out. I agree with both of you guys about the WG, I think that it is very will built, it has simple controls. I love the fact that it has a 30" fb and that it likes large pc of wood, that means more time w/ my family and less time processing wood. It was the right price and if I can be patient with it and get through this season then I will decide how much money I want to invest in it. I should have the "EPA" plug by monday and Darren told me to plug off the tube that has the damaged ceramic block for this season. He said the plug should help seeing as i have this years wood processed for my old boiler which is only 20" and small splits. I cant wait to try it out as this plug will make the WG even more adjustable...So far since my brother in law helped out adjusting the fan I havent had any huffing situations but its only been a couple of days.


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## avc8130 (Dec 28, 2013)

I think you'll be cruising much smoother with the fan all fixed up now.  

I would run the gun for the season and then take it down/apart in the spring to give it a real service/once over when the pressure to heat the house isn't there.  

ac


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## infinitymike (Dec 28, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> These are
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cast iron nozzles?? The picture of the one by itself looks like refractory.
How long have the cast iron ones lasted so far?

I went my first full winter, than another winter and then a whole summer heating DHW with my set of nozzles.
I changed them out before this winter started and I went through about 18 cord. I probably could have made it through this  winter but I didn't want to risk damaging the shelf they sit on. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.


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## infinitymike (Dec 28, 2013)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Thanks AC and Wirenut,
> 
> AC thanks for starting the WG Bible thread i spent some time there last night and read through a few pages, lots of good information. I agree with you, I like having my boiler downstairs.
> 
> ...




You doing just fine. Even though you've heated with wood before, gasification is a whole nother animal.
All you need is to get some experience under your belt and she will be burning just fine.

I NEVER heated with wood before and dove right into the deep end.
I wear my heart on my sleeve and posted a bunch of threads and videos whining and complaining about the whole thing but in the end it wasn't the Wood Gun as much as it was me and my lack of experience.
I have gotten into a comfortable routine and 99% of the time she burns just fine.

One thing I have noticed about Wood Gun owners is they are a real honest bunch of guys and have no fear of others when trying to figure out the problems they might be encountering. With that said, I still have had some bad days of burning. Not sure what it is, I pretty much do exactly the same thing at the same time under the same conditions and it just doesn't burn well.
Fortunately those days are fewer and farther between.
Most of the time I have perfect days of clean burning.

Keep us up to date. I like the fact that she is a carbon steel unit and still running over 10 years. I should get 30+ out of my SS model


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## avc8130 (Dec 28, 2013)

I don't know if I want to C/S/S 30 more years worth of wood!

ac


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## infinitymike (Dec 28, 2013)

avc8130 said:


> I don't know if I want to C/S/S 30 more years worth of wood!
> 
> ac



I'm gonna try and get it all done in the next 10 and sit back and relax for the next 20


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## Green Mt Heat (Dec 28, 2013)

Thanks guys,

AC that is great advice and exactly what I plan an doing. I'm going to learn my way through this heating season and reevaluate the WG next summer. Darren @ AHS said that he could give me some pointers where to look in the fb for excessive wear and corrosion. So far with the fan adjustment (12-25-13) i have had no huffing situations and last night I loaded the fb @ 25-30% (temps in the upper teens overnight). No problems all night. 

infinitymike The nozzles  that are in the wg now are the cast iron ones, the previous owner had a friend @ a foundry cast them. Im not sure how long they have been in there but I suspect its been a few years? If you look @ the last pics I posted of the FB you can see the cast iron nozzles in the picture. The nozzles that I took a picture of are a brand new set that the previous owner gave me with the purchase. You are right mike this wg is a whole new animal makes my last boiler look like a model T.  Mike I really like your style with the videos that you have posted (please keep posting them). I was so happy when I came across your youtube videos. you are like the only WG on youtube, so I want to thank you for putting them up. I learned more about the WG in your videos than i have in the last month of trying to use mine!

Guys I have been c/s/s 6-8 cord a year for over 20 years and before that I was helping my dad with his yearly supply since I was a little kid. I hated doing wood when I was a kid and swore when I bought a house I would never deal with wood again! I didn't make it through my first winter in my first house w/o hooking up a woodstove! I couldnt stand hearing the oil furnace run and still being cold in the house. My dad always says that you get warm twice heating with wood, once when you are c/s/s it then next when you burn it. Its also great exercise, I can see another 20 years at least processing wood. I hope the WG works out because c/s/s wood for this thing is going to be like a breath of fresh air, a lot fewer cuts and a lot less splitting. Mike once again your videos are great I was watching the ones with your wood pile, splitting and stacking operation, the vids gave me a good Idea what length and split size works well in the WG! Your wood splitter was made about 25 miles north of where I live!

The encouragement here has been great, I'll keep you posted


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## Thom Griffin (Jan 3, 2014)

I used to have an Eshland wood gun 140.  I got the optional hood for over the door when I bought it (1984).  I had trouble with puffing whenever I used very dry, and very small splits of wood.


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## infinitymike (Jan 3, 2014)

Thom Griffin said:


> I used to have an Eshland wood gun 140.  I got the optional hood for over the door when I bought it (1984).  I had trouble with puffing whenever I used very dry, and very small splits of wood.



WOW. 1984?!!  How long did you have it for? How did you like it? Why did you get rid of it.?
What do you have now?


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 3, 2014)

Thanks Thom,

How long did you use it? Did it ever fail (leak) or did you move and leave it with the house? I just got the "EPA" plug today from AHS and it seems to have helped a little but with a half load of would in I was still able to make it puff. I hope it behaves tonight its already -10. All of my wood was processed for another boiler with a much smaller firebox. i have over 8 cord at that size. 
Did you have any tricks to get it to stop huffing? What were other experiences that you had with your wg? All in all did you like it? Pros-cons?

Thanks


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## WireNut (Jan 4, 2014)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Thanks Thom,
> 
> How long did you use it? Did it ever fail (leak) or did you move and leave it with the house? I just got the "EPA" plug today from AHS and it seems to have helped a little but with a half load of would in I was still able to make it puff. I hope it behaves tonight its already -10. All of my wood was processed for another boiler with a much smaller firebox. i have over 8 cord at that size.
> Did you have any tricks to get it to stop huffing? What were other experiences that you had with your wg? All in all did you like it? Pros-cons?
> ...


Have you checked the moisture content of your wood?  If som what is it?


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 4, 2014)

WireNut,

I took a reading today on 4 or 5 pc from different trees. I'm not sure how accurate my meter is but I didn't get over 20% on any pc. 

*Any WG owners out there had any positive experience burning wood at or under 20%? I just got the "EPA Plug" from AHS yesterday. It helped but didn't cure it.*

Do you guys think that this is the biggest reason for the Huffing/puffing, probably a stupid question? Any tips or tricks? Like I said my last boiler liked 20" med splits dry dry wood.... Any Ideas?


----------



## WireNut (Jan 4, 2014)

Green Mt Heat said:


> WireNut,
> 
> I took a reading today on 4 or 5 pc from different trees. I'm not sure how accurate my meter is but I didn't get over 20% on any pc.
> 
> ...



I also have the huffing problem on wood under 20%.  I haven't tried an EPA plug yet.  I'm burning wetter wood in larger pieces right now, and having no trouble....no water in the ash pan and very little smoke.  I don't know if its wood size or moisture content...or a combo of the two...but those are the two things I changed to improve the burn.


----------



## muncybob (Jan 4, 2014)

Most of the wood we are burning right now is in the 20% range. Up until this year I had been running with the intake damper at about 75% closed and almost eliminated the huffing. This was mainly only an annoyance for us, no smoke problem from it.
Installed the plug recently and have purposely run only small splits except for overnight burns and have opened the damper 100%(per AHS)...no huffing at all. These last 2 very cold nights we loaded the usual amount(10pm) for overnight and both mornings I was surprised at the amount still left in the box the next morning at 6:30.
It seems that each owner has to find their sweet spot in running these. Keep tweaking things, it took us awhile to get it right.


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 4, 2014)

I took some pictures of a pipe clean on the WG today. I was very pleased how dry and easy the residue was to brush off and clean out.So much better than my old non gasser boiler! In all the years of using conventional wood boilers I have never been able to have stove pipe this clean ever. In just a few min. it was all cleaned up.


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## muncybob (Jan 4, 2014)

Our WG seems to run better keeping all tubes cleaned. During heavy use we clean the tubes and empty the pan twice per week. When the pan is out be sure to check the bottom of the cyclone that it is open. I just stick my thumb up there.


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## Green Mt Heat (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks muncbob

How often do you WG owners clean out the main (middle nozzle tube)? I notice that there is ash build up right behind the plug for a few inches, do you guys get a lot of ash build up in the center tube as well? I will check this more often and be sure its clean.

What are normal stack temps for the WG towards the end of the cycle? I have only been able to get it up to about 275. Even at 250-275 there is no smoke out of the stack.Should it be closer to 300-350 or should i not worry if its burning clean. As you can see buy the flu there is only a small amount of dry buildup, maybe the thermometer is a little off?


----------



## Green Mt Heat (Jan 4, 2014)

BTW I did check the cyclone as well and the bottom of the "funnel" was clear.


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## infinitymike (Jan 4, 2014)

Green Mt Heat said:


> Thanks muncbob
> 
> How often do you WG owners clean out the main (middle nozzle tube)? I notice that there is ash build up right behind the plug for a few inches, do you guys get a lot of ash build up in the center tube as well? I will check this more often and be sure its clean.
> 
> What are normal stack temps for the WG towards the end of the cycle? I have only been able to get it up to about 275. Even at 250-275 there is no smoke out of the stack.Should it be closer to 300-350 or should i not worry if its burning clean. As you can see buy the flu there is only a small amount of dry buildup, maybe the thermometer is a little off?



I clean the ash pan every 2-3 days.
I clean all 3 tubes every Sunday.
I clean the firebox out when I get a chance. Could be 5 days, could be 10 days. It depends on when I catch it and what the demand of the house is. I found that in the firebox the very grey powdery ash will begin to clump together and if I rake it around with the coals it gets worse and I think it may clog the nozzles. I do know that I tend to lose gasification when there is to much of that stuff in the fire box.
I am also careful to just move the hot coals around and not to disturb that stuff when I am reloading.
I figure a clean machine is a happy machine.

I get normal stack temps of 300-350 and sometimes close to 400. I have a probe thermometer 24" above the cyclone.
There are times I have had 200-250 but not to often.
I have 10' of straight double wall  right off the cyclone.
There is nothing inside it, barely anything even if I scrape it.


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## muncybob (Jan 5, 2014)

Mid burn my stack temp is usually 375-400. If you have a magnetic temp guage your reading will be lower than actual temp. A probe type is much more accurate.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 5, 2014)

muncybob said:


> Mid burn my stack temp is usually 375-400. If you have a magnetic temp guage your reading will be lower than actual temp. A probe type is much more accurate.


 
Echo this, loudly.

I bristle when I see guys on the site comparing flue temps that were measured with a magnetic guage to those who measured with a probe thermometer. A magnetic guage will read at least 100°c less that a probe at full burn - meaning there might be some that are trying to get their temps up when they are already too hot or hot enough. IMO the magnetic guages are dangerous if you don't know what's up with them.


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## Thom Griffin (Jan 5, 2014)

infinitymike said:


> WOW. 1984?!!  How long did you have it for? How did you like it? Why did you get rid of it.?
> What do you have now?


Well...I originally bought it for a farmhouse in Connecticut, but sold my old family farm there and moved to a farm in northwestern Massachusetts.  I installed the woodgun and ran it for about three years before abandoning it.  I gave it away, with great pleasure.  I must have gone through three fan motors.  I found that the bearings would fail, as the heat was too much for them.  I did end up improving things a little by rigging up some sort of longer shaft and making a bracket for the motor.

Then I burned oil for a few years.  I'm now a happy owner of a Tarm with storage.  

I will say, in defense of the Wood gun:  There were no chat groups like this at the time, so no shared advice.  I could have used much better wood.  And, at the time, nobody was doing storage tanks.


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

Thom Griffin said:


> Well...I originally bought it for a farmhouse in Connecticut, but sold my old family farm there and moved to a farm in northwestern Massachusetts.  I installed the woodgun and ran it for about three years before abandoning it.  I gave it away, with great pleasure.  I must have gone through three fan motors.  I found that the bearings would fail, as the heat was too much for them.  I did end up improving things a little by rigging up some sort of longer shaft and making a bracket for the motor.
> 
> Then I burned oil for a few years.  I'm now a happy owner of a Tarm with storage.
> 
> I will say, in defense of the Wood gun:  There were no chat groups like this at the time, so no shared advice.  I could have used much better wood.  And, at the time, nobody was doing storage tanks.



When we first got the wood gun all of the ads said you could burn green wood.  That was the first lie.  Ours has been a constant nightmare.  It used a lot more wood then we were told it would use, if huffs all the time unless the damper is closed, the wood to oil feature is worthless unless you want to ruin the oil gun.  I would never never never put another one of these things in a house again.  If I could afford it, I'd replace it.


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

muncybob said:


> Are you getting explosions in the firebox or is it puffing/huffing(no explsosion but you can feel and hear the unit "wheezing")? The explosions are normally caused by gasses igniting and usually when it has short cycled(turned on again very shortly after a burn). To resolve this my aquastat is set using a 30 degree differential(off at 190 and on at 160). Have not had an "explosion" since. The huffing usually occurs when the firebox is overeloaded and not enough oxygen in the box. I rarely get this anymore as long as I only load up to barely half full which is usually good enough for 8 to 10 hours depending on the call for heat/dhw. Even still, if it does huff I don't have the smoke problem you described.



Some of us, like me, have to fill the box up to get through a cold central ny night.  And in the morning the house stinks.  If we turn the damper all the way down we don't get huffing, but we are advised not to turn it down.  This is nuts and this is a problem that should have been fixed by a company that has been in business for twenty-something years.  This is  a design flaw.  And if someone is putting this in their home they should be warned.  

The problem with these things is that too much can go wrong.  Three doors with different gaskets.  The cyclone design is nuts.  Our chimney sweep tells me his professional newsletter is filled with people who say they won't sweep a chimney that expels gasification smoke -- to hard to clean.  We have an oil burning option, but I can tell you that you should never use the "automatic" switch-to-oil function.  If you burn wood without a protective plug in the oil gun area, the oil gun will get fouled with creosote.  We had to spend $500 for a new oil burning unit.  Of course, no one at the company told us about the oil plug.  I might consider a gasification unit when we move (and I can't wait to move, mostly to get away from this yearly 6-month nightmare) but I would not buy one of these again and certainly not one that's indoors.


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2015)

mskinboston,

I'm sorry you have had so many issues.

I have had some issues as well but seemed to have resolved them.
Huffing is caused by  very dry and very  skinny splits which means you have to add more splits to fill the firebox which means more surface area to off gas which means you need more 02 to burn those gases and since there can only be so much air brought in,  the fire starves and the relights, starves and the relights, causing huffing.
I have 12/13 cord of very skinny splits left before I get to use the very large splits I have been making this year.
I have been loading the box with half skinny 2 year old splits and half 8 month old large splits and have NO huffing.
If you pipe you fresh air intake to the outside any huffing smell will be outside.
AHS also sells for about $15 an EPA plug which plugs one of the lower air tubes which also helps with huffing.
My double wall SS smoke pipe is spotless, no creosote, just a light tan dust.
I ordered my with the oil option but never hooked it up.
I still have an oil burner  as back up by have that turned off.
I just make sure the WG is heating the house.
I know another WG owner who ripped his oil burner out and has no oil hooked up to his WG.


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2015)

Oh, I forgot to say that I have to also FILL my firebox FULL to make through the night.


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## muncybob (Jan 23, 2015)

I'm not sure what, if anything, has changed in the design of the WG in recent years that causes the oil tube problems. I have the oil burner option and up until 2 years ago I ran the WG without the oil tube plug. Never had any problems with the oil nozzle being gunked up nor any creosote in the tube. Actually, an oil tech that last cleaned it for me said he was surprised how clean the nozzle and tube were since we burn moslty wood.

I do agree that AHS should inform new & previous buyers of their product that certain options are available. I would nevere have known about the oil tube plug or the other plug Mike mentions if not for this forum. I also agree that AHS should have high temp rope gaskets in all 3 doors. Agreeing also that the marketing comment of being able to burn up to 30% m.c. wood is misleading...anybody can burn wet wood, not many can without complications from doing that though.

It's been my experience that running with the damper closed will create more ash but otherwise I have had no problems doing so. I now run with the damper about 75%+ closed all the time, have had no huffing at all with larger splits and have had only 1 "backfire" and that was operator induced(turned the purge timer on too soon after a shut down).

It's a real shame you are having a tough time of it with the WG...after my learning curve I've been fairly happy with it except for the amount of ash I get which requires more frequent cleaning.


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

infinitymike said:


> mskinboston,
> 
> I'm sorry you have had so many issues.
> 
> ...



Now another thing to buy -- but at least it's cheap.  Over the seven years we've been running the 140, we've been told the wood is too wet, too dry, too small, too big -- always something.  Running the air intake to the outdoors is tempting, but not practical.  We have an exhaust fan in the window, because we don't have room for one over the door -- only other choice is to bust through a lot of rock.  We use the oil every once in a while -- if we go away, or if it's near the end of the season and we don't think we have enough wood.  I think we go through about thirty face cords a year.  It's a larger house, but this unit was suppose to be oversized and really it just keeps up and we keep the temperature on the stupid low side.  The wood is actually a pretty good mix in size and type -- lots of ash.  I don't know.  I do know that my friends who have outdoor units are a lot happier than I am.  Their homes are warmer and they don't have to constantly adjust doors or worry about huffing or a chimney that clogged in the middle of the night an almost killed us with carbon monoxide.  Maybe it's just a lemon.  Over the years I've called AHS over 150 times.  Our first year we just couldn't get the house warm.  We've gotten better, but we will probably have to replace all of the innards -- and its way too soon for that.  There's no service for it either.  I would love someone to come out, look the thing over and tell us just what we are not doing right.  We've cleaned the thing out about six times already this year (I'm referring to removing the cyclone and the motor).  The doors are tight.  The round gasket at the air intake is tight (and new).  I keep my office at 60 and the living room at 62.  We've insulated the attic (which had some old school insulation, but we blew in about a foot of cellulose).  The upstairs in warmer, but still.  We've replace a fan bearing.  According to the house measurements, this unit is large (we were actually thinking of running a line to the greenhouse when we first installed it -- that's a joke now).  The line pumps are fast.  I just don't know.  Every year, we just want to survive the winter.  The house is on the market, largely because we just can't stand that boiler anymore.  It never lived up to expectations or do what we were told it could do.


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

muncybob said:


> I'm not sure what, if anything, has changed in the design of the WG in recent years that causes the oil tube problems. I have the oil burner option and up until 2 years ago I ran the WG without the oil tube plug. Never had any problems with the oil nozzle being gunked up nor any creosote in the tube. Actually, an oil tech that last cleaned it for me said he was surprised how clean the nozzle and tube were since we burn moslty wood.
> 
> I do agree that AHS should inform new & previous buyers of their product that certain options are available. I would nevere have known about the oil tube plug or the other plug Mike mentions if not for this forum. I also agree that AHS should have high temp rope gaskets in all 3 doors. Agreeing also that the marketing comment of being able to burn up to 30% m.c. wood is misleading...anybody can burn wet wood, not many can without complications from doing that though.
> 
> ...


I could live with frequent cleaning.  Carl mentioned that he has a customer that is just cleaning out behind the motor after 6 years.  He actually stopped here once on his way back from an upstate NY show -- and spend sometime cleaning it out.  Nice guy.  That was at the end of the first year, I think, and the wood we were using was probably too green, but we were told it was okay to burn greener wood back then, until we started burning it.  We didn't have an oil plug for the first fours years or so -- and when I had the oil gun serviced, the guy couldn't believe the crap that was on it.  (It probably doesn't take much.  A cyclone clog or a door that goes out of adjustment when you are out for a day and doom and gloom when you get home.)


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2015)

mskinboston said:


> We've cleaned the thing out about six times already this year (I'm referring to removing the cyclone and the motor).





Wow, thats crazy.
I only empty the ash pan every couple days and clean the 3 tubes once a week, but actually have been going longer like once every 2 weeks.
I took the cyclone and fan motor off for the first time last january, it was very clean.

i burn primarily oak with some maple mixed in.


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2015)

mskinboston said:


> I keep my office at 60 and the living room at 62.  We've insulated the attic (which had some old school insulation, but we blew in about a foot of cellulose).




Another WOW,

I keep the 1st floor (1500sf) at 70 from 5:30am to 11:30pm and set back to 67* over night
The 2nd floor (500sf) at 70 from 9pm to 11:30pm then set back to 67* and back up to 70 from 5:30 am to 8am then back to 67*

My house is VERY poorly insulated.
My E100 seems to keep up. 
One full firebox from 10pm to 8am on average.
1/4 firebox from 8am to 2pm 
1/4 firebox from 2pm to 6pm
1/4 firebox from 6pm to 10pm

But as we all know that varies and could be more or less depending on outside temps.

Hey there is a guy with a WG in Canada who keeps his house at 80* and only burns 5 splits a day.


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2015)

I also burn all summer long for DHW.


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## muncybob (Jan 23, 2015)

Cyclone/fan motor removal and cleaning should not be any more than an annual deal. I didn't pull my fan until the 3rd year to clean the heat exchanger area. Is it possible the 140 is too big for your application and you are cycling off way more than you should? Have you actually check the moisture content of the wood you are burning?


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

muncybob said:


> Cyclone/fan motor removal and cleaning should not be any more than an annual deal. I didn't pull my fan until the 3rd year to clean the heat exchanger area. Is it possible the 140 is too big for your application and you are cycling off way more than you should? Have you actually check the moisture content of the wood you are burning?


Honestly, I haven't.  But it's mostly ash, it was cut and split in June, it's been kept in the barn and it's checked.


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## avc8130 (Jan 23, 2015)

I dunno...I run an E180 in a 2500 sq ft ranch in Sussex County NJ.  1980 standard 2x4 construction.  I can make this house whatever temp I want.  I empty my ash pan every ~3-4 days.  I CHECK my lower tubes ~weekly, and probably clean them ~monthly.  I take the fan off and clean the cyclone annually.  My chimney generally has a light dust in it.  

Wood cut/split in June?  WAY too wet to use in a gassification boiler.  Your wood needs to be c/s/s at least a year.  

Are you trying to run the thing like an outdoor boiler?  

What does your daily routine look like?

ac


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

infinitymike said:


> Another WOW,
> 
> I keep the 1st floor (1500sf) at 70 from 5:30am to 11:30pm and set back to 67* over night
> The 2nd floor (500sf) at 70 from 9pm to 11:30pm then set back to 67* and back up to 70 from 5:30 am to 8am then back to 67*
> ...


I'm wondering if we didn't do significant damage some how some where during the first year when we were burning a lot of maple.  It's wasn't super green, but it wasn't as dry as the wood we are burning now.  Maybe there are pin holes in the tubes, or something.  Has anyone ever had probelms with tube erosion?


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

avc8130 said:


> I dunno...I run an E180 in a 2500 sq ft ranch in Sussex County NJ.  1980 standard 2x4 construction.  I can make this house whatever temp I want.  I empty my ash pan every ~3-4 days.  I CHECK my lower tubes ~weekly, and probably clean them ~monthly.  I take the fan off and clean the cyclone annually.  My chimney generally has a light dust in it.
> 
> Wood cut/split in June?  WAY too wet to use in a gassification boiler.  Your wood needs to be c/s/s at least a year.
> 
> ...


We are burning ash.  Depends on the temp.  Fill up around 9:00 p.m.  If the temperature outside is below 20, I usually have to fill it at 6 or 7 a.m.  I'll add more wood around 5 or 6 if needed.  Then fill up at 9 again.  If the wood was too green, I don't think we'd get the huffing.  The wood is likely aged longer.  We trade hay for wood and he cuts pretty much year-round.  I was actually concerned it might be too dry.  I suppose I should have it measured, but honestly we've burned a lot of dry wood and haven't fared better.

What's the proper moisture content, about 25%?


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## infinitymike (Jan 23, 2015)

mskinboston said:


> What's the proper moisture content, about 25%?



Yeah, I guess, around 20-30% max.
I stopped checking mine. 
The skinny splits I'm burning are 2 years old and if I split them to check the MC  they will be splinters. LOL
The big stuff 6x6, 8x8 is only 8 months old, I should split one of those and see.


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## mskinboston (Jan 23, 2015)

infinitymike said:


> Yeah, I guess, around 20-30% max.
> I stopped checking mine.
> The skinny splits I'm burning are 2 years old and if I split them to check the MC  they will be splinters. LOL
> The big stuff 6x6, 8x8 is only 8 months old, I should split one of those and see.


That's pretty close to what were are burning.  A good mix of large and small.  And ash is suppose to be a wood you can burn green isn't it?  (I know, not in a wood gun, but its moisture content must be pretty low.)


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## avc8130 (Jan 23, 2015)

You really can't burn ANY wood green in ANY gassifier.  The WG is more tolerant than most of the Euro boilers, but still prefers a reasonable moisture content. 

I'm still baffled you can't heat your house.  The WGs put out TONS of btus.  Are you SURE the rest of your system is working properly?  Is your Wood Gun cycling, or is it running 100% of the time?

ac


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## maple1 (Jan 23, 2015)

I know the WG is a popular boiler to banter about here - but the only other guy I know within 100 miles of me with a gasifier, has a WG, and he has been VERY happy with it in the 4 or 5 years (maybe more now) he's had it. His is in his basement, and unless he added one since I've been there, doesn't even have a smoke hood.

I would bet wood that is too wet is most of the problems I'm reading about in the past few posts.


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## muncybob (Jan 23, 2015)

The majority of my 1st year frustration in burning wood for heat was exactly what you are describing mskinboston. The wood was 25% plus mc and I was having all sorts of issues. Since then my wood is around 20% and some probably a bit lower, they are mostly larger sized splits and I've had no problems. I'm surprised you have not mentioned excess moisture in your ash pan, I was getting a lot of that with wetter wood. As stated in this thread and many times in other threads in this forum, c/s/s minimum of 1 year and preferably 2 years and you should be good to go. Oak needs 3+ years esp. if they are not small splits. Yes, ash starts out with a lower mc than many woods but it still needs more than 6 months to season good enough for a gasser to operate properly. I'll bet if you got some of those eco bricks mixed with your wood or could find some kiln dried wood you would see a BIG difference!


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