# New electric car battery may change the industry and the world.



## Seasoned Oak (Apr 12, 2011)

A German company has the attention of the electric vehicle industry and those watching it, having recently documented remarkable claims for its KOLIBRI lithium-metal-polymer battery. 
Claims cars could go 300-400 miles per charge and be recharged in minutes.

http://gm-volt.com/2011/04/12/cost-...reportedly-passes-tests-recharges-in-minutes/


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## btuser (Apr 13, 2011)

Germans make the best stuff.


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

> A German company has the attention of the electric vehicle industry and those watching it, having recently documented remarkable claims for its KOLIBRI lithium-metal-polymer battery.
> Claims cars could go 300-400 miles per charge and be recharged in minutes.
> 
> http://gm-volt.com/2011/04/12/cost-...reportedly-passes-tests-recharges-in-minutes/



Kewl! Sounds like an interesting one to watch. The question is how many watt-hours capacity does their battery provide? I may want one or two. 

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/04/0...king-kolibri-battery-passes-government-tests/


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## mayhem (Apr 13, 2011)

Like to see more data on this alleged recharge rate myself.  As my old electronics teacher used to be fond of saying "the goesintas have got to equal the goesouttas".  I'm skeptical that you could recharge a battery with that much energy storage capacity in so short a period of time without providing it an outragously high input current...like 200-300 amps maybe.


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## jharkin (Apr 13, 2011)

Its easy enough to do the math. The article mentions a 63kWh battery pack.  If we assume by minutes they mean a 10 minute recharge, and you have a 220v input source

63kWh = 63000 Wh
at 220v = 286 Ah

So to recharge in 1 hour you would need a 220v supply at 286 A.
To recharge in 10 minutes that would be 1718 A
If its 5 minutes then 3426 A.

(And this is at 100% efficiency.... At such high charge rates you are probably heating the battery quite a bit so your efficiency is not that good.)

In order to make this realistic to recharge packs in minutes with capacity to give hundreds of miles range is going to need dedicated charging facilities I think equipped to handle higher voltages (maybe 480) safely. Its the only way your gonna get that quick a charge without cables as thick as your forearm.

OTOH, I don't doubt that the packs can take these charge rates. We have already had batteries for hobby applications fora few years that can take these charge rates no problem.  Lithium nanophospate (A123 systems) will charge at 5C (12 minutes) rates safely. And the latest Lithium Polymer packs can take 3C or some even 6C if the temperature is monitored carefully.


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## hilly (Apr 13, 2011)

Power lost to resistance is I^2*R... maybe this can be charged using a superconductor at absolute zero!


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## spirilis (Apr 13, 2011)

fyi they said the 10 minute recharge (actually they mention "inside of 6 minutes") was for the 98kWh battery, and the 63kWh battery they theorized could be charged in 4 minutes.

Since they're not divulging the details of their charging equipment, I'm guessing they're using some extra fancy super high-amperage equipment there... and maybe charging at higher than 220V?  actually I'd be almost sure of that, in order to push high recharge rates you need to overcome the battery's internal resistance and its associated voltage drop... by a large margin.


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## MishMouse (Apr 13, 2011)

It s easy to recharge the battery in no time.
Just drive it around during a thunderstorm with a long lightning rod connected to the battery.
1 Strike and it is fully recharged in less then 1 sec.
Also when it is sitting at home the same process could be used.

Yes, I am kinda joking but, the use of lightning as a power source would be able to recharge a battery in no time.
Also if there was a good way to harness the energy in the atmosphere during a typical thunderstorm we are talking about allot of unused energy.

Actually I did find something on it: http://inhabitat.com/power-your-home-with-lightening/


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2011)

mayhem said:
			
		

> Like to see more data on this alleged recharge rate myself.  As my old electronics teacher used to be fond of saying "the goesintas have got to equal the goesouttas".  I'm skeptical that you could recharge a battery with that much energy storage capacity in so short a period of time without providing it an outragously high input current...like 200-300 amps maybe.



You are right, charging this might dim the lights in the neighborhood and pop a few transformers at that rate. They hint at that in one of the articles on this battery noting a special charging system was needed to achieve the rapid charge. Whether this is practical in real world terms, safe and doesn't affect battery life are all factors to consider.


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## Delta-T (Apr 13, 2011)

with that type of mile range on the batts would you really need it to quick charge? wouldn't a couple of hours be acceptable for most applications? not many people break 300 miles in a day in a car, on a regular basis....sales people excluded.


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2011)

Yes, this is the way they've worked out current systems for the Leaf etc. There are 2kw, 4kw and 6kw chargers. Depending on the battery capacity and on-board charging system the user can select the rate. Overnight is fine in many cases, but if you're going down the freeway and need a range-extending charge, longer than 20 min. is probably unacceptable. For example, if we want to visit our son at college, it's a 50 mile drive (100 miles round-trip), in winter, with heat and defroster on, this would be out of range for many all-electric vehicles.


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## mayhem (Apr 13, 2011)

Make no mistake, this sort of thing is more ikely the future of personal transportaion.  Instead of fueling stations with underground liuid tanks moving highly flammabvle fluid we'll have ultra high current quick charge stations with huge power feeds from nearby utilities, or possibly on site power storage in the form of low friction flywheels, fuel cells or whatever.

Its probably a mistake to think that efficient home charging is economically feasable for 90% of the persoanl transportation population.  We'll still need to go to the refueling station...just a different energy medium being transferred.


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## Delta-T (Apr 13, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Yes, this is the way they've worked out current systems for the Leaf etc. There are 2kw, 4kw and 6kw chargers. Depending on the battery capacity and on-board charging system the user can select the rate. Overnight is fine in many cases, but if you're going down the freeway and need a range-extending charge, longer than 20 min. is probably unacceptable. For example, if we want to visit our son at college, it's a 50 mile drive (100 miles round-trip), in winter, with heat and defroster on, this would be out of range for many all-electric vehicles.



maybe we should be working on the electric car with wood stove heat...i bet at 55 mph you'd get excellent draft.. ;-)


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 13, 2011)

Delta-T said:
			
		

> with that type of mile range on the batts would you really need it to quick charge? wouldn't a couple of hours be acceptable for most applications? not many people break 300 miles in a day in a car, on a regular basis....sales people excluded.



 Charge time is not nearly as important when talking 300+ miles range. This kind of range would satisfy 99 % of drivers,the other 1% could use the volt range extending tech with bio-fuel.


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2011)

Very true. Also, often one does not need to top a high capacity battery bank off to 100%. If taking it to 80% is is safer, faster and more feasible, then that will suffice for many. This is the strategy Nissan is taking with the Leaf and multiple rate charging stations.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 13, 2011)

Its not the charge time thats so important here its the cost first and the range second. $1200 is astounding if it can be achieved. 300+ miles range is a close second.
I fully intend to be driving my HD Silverado one day on electric. Im not the phone booth on wheels type so the sooner the better.


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## btuser (Apr 13, 2011)

I thing a high-amperage package is something the government could get behind.  If you figure the only place you could  "gas up" would be dedicated charging stations with 600v cords and crazy amps  then it would be easy to tax people on their charge and not have the mess that charging at your house is going to create.  If you give the wealthy an opportunity like this to stay in charge they may jump at it.  Otherwise, we're going to shutter a ton of gas stations and everyone is going to have a gps in their car that tells the government how many miles they drove last year.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 13, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> Otherwise, we're going to shutter a ton of gas stations and everyone is going to have a gps in their car that tells the government how many miles they drove last year.



Shutter a ton of gas stations,it has a nice ring to it.


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## btuser (Apr 17, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

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But every owner of a gas station would be against it.  That will make it never happen.  Electric cars are going to put millions of people out of work.  It also takes us out of the driver's seat when it comes to the price/cost of oil.  If we don't need it, they don't need us so say goodbye to the Dollar as the reserve currency.  That's strike two.


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2011)

We'll still need stations. I don't think we'll go entirely battery or capacitor electric. Fuel cell cars will start showing up when hydrogen or natural gas starts coming on line as a motor fuel. 

For battery electric, I like the Better Place battery system model. It uses a standardized battery pack that drops out of the car and is replaced by a fresh one in about a minute or two. This makes a lot of sense and will drop the price of electric vehicles. It also will allow an older electric car to be easily updated to a newer battery pack. This would mean current gas stations could still exist by updating their setup to store and charge battery packs and to install the replacement system, which would be similar to a car wash setup as far as the driver experience.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 17, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

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Electric cars are going to create more jobs than they eliminate. Wont we still need service stations to quick charge the cars? The transition to electric will be painfully slow so no worry over shuttered gas stations ,just change the name to energy station. Gas ,CNG, and electric service.
  Replacing most of the ICE fleet with electric capable cars is an enormous job and if we can get in on the ground floor which we have already started to do we can bring some of those auto jobs back home we have been chasing to japan and korea for 40 years, I applaud GM for trying to make every part of the VOLT in The US. Including plans for battery Mfg. It may ease some of the bad blood over the bailout. Theres no reason the majority of the cars we drive and the fuel that runs them can not come from our own country.


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## btuser (Apr 17, 2011)

I dunno.  No oil changes, brakes, mufflers, filters and a battery pack that last 20 years and can be charged once/week means only people stopping for ciggarettes in the morning and beer at night.   Gas stations as it is don't make any money on gas.  I'm all for the charging stations.  Some place where I could get a decent cup of coffee and internet access every 500 miles.  Instead of a 5 minute visit it would be closer to 15-20 minutes.  Maybe they'd bring back the pickle barrel and we could start talking small-time politics.  

I like the idea of modular batteries, and if you only need 40 miles/day then you could keep down the cost of the vehicle.  I don't know how easy it would be to design a removable battery that's light like a propane cylinder, and doesn't get hot.  Even modest battery packs are going to be hundreds of pounds.  A full gas tank would be 200lbs or more.


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## begreen (Apr 18, 2011)

Electric cars will still have brakes that need to be repaired or replaced. They should last longer, but that depends on your local terrain and driving habits. They also have fairly complex systems that will break down, wheel bearings, shocks, etc. that all will need replacing. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large market for hybrid conversion kits, battery updates (if there is a technology leap), electric conversion, etc.. An entrepreneurial garage that changes with the times will stay busy. 

Check out the Better Place initiative. The battery pack is modular and drops down and out of the car quickly. Here's a link to a Tokyo Better Place taxi project. About 2/3d through the slide show they show the battery pack being replaced.

http://www.betterplace.com/the-company-multimedia-photos/index/id/72157623927307852


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## semipro (Apr 18, 2011)

Going to electricity as a standard form of power whether for homes or cars makes so much sense.  The infrastructure that has to be built, modified, maintained to support so many types of fuels is burdensome.  

We should update our electrical distribution system to increases its efficiency and "smartness" and then feed it with whatever energy source we have available whether , NG, renewable, etc. from both regional and local (e.g. residential) energy sources. 

Battery technologies such as that discussed here will enable this vision.  One day we may have batteries like this in every vehicle and another set in our basement.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 18, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> I dunno.  No oil changes, brakes, mufflers, filters and a battery pack that last 20 years and can be charged once/week means only people stopping for ciggarettes in the morning and beer at night.   Gas stations as it is don't make any money on gas.  I'm all for the charging stations.  Some place where I could get a decent cup of coffee and internet access every 500 miles.  Instead of a 5 minute visit it would be closer to 15-20 minutes.  Maybe they'd bring back the pickle barrel and we could start talking small-time politics.
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> I like the idea of modular batteries, and if you only need 40 miles/day then you could keep down the cost of the vehicle.  I don't know how easy it would be to design a removable battery that's light like a propane cylinder, and doesn't get hot.  Even modest battery packs are going to be hundreds of pounds.  A full gas tank would be 200lbs or more.



Dont like the battery swap idea. When you are paying x# thousands of $ for a battery pack you may not want to swap it for another one of questionable quality and age, not to mention you would need a forklift to move it. Hell i dont even like to swap my brand new propane tank for a old refill slopped up with paint to cover the rust. The quick charge would be much more convenient.  AS for jobs if we can Mfg the majority of cars and parts HERE in the US we may get back some market share from japan and korea. Look at the volt owners most use very little gas as 90% of trips are short. This concept alone may stretch out the available liquid fuel hundreds of years. The leaf should have a small lightweight propane generator in the trunk like the campers do,provide extra range as well as heat in winter.


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## begreen (Apr 18, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> Going to electricity as a standard from of power whether for homes or cars makes so much sense.  The infrastructure that has to be built, modified, maintained to support so many types of fuels is burdensome.
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> We should update our electrical distribution system to increases its efficiency and "smartness" and then feed it with whatever energy source we have available whether , NG, renewable, etc. from both regional and local (e.g. residential) energy sources.
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> Battery technologies such as that discussed here will enable this vision.  One day we may have batteries like this in every vehicle and another set in our basement.



One day we may just hook the car up as a supplemental power supply to the house. Same thing for when it sits all day in a parking lot. A car with a big battery and/or a fuel cell is a portable storage device/power source.


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## begreen (Apr 18, 2011)

trump said:
			
		

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Most likely in this case you would not be paying for the battery or owning it. It might be more of a leasing arrangement. This would help reduce the price of electric cars dramatically and it would reduce the risk of technology obsolescence.


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## semipro (Apr 18, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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That idea is out there and a good one.  Why buy a backup generator when you have a Chevy Volt connected to your house with either an ICE or battery as a power source. 

Some have even proposed using batteries in cars as energy sources/sinks to smooth out electrical grid supply/demand fluctuations.


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## btuser (Apr 20, 2011)

Oh my gawd that would be awesome.  Centralized emissions control and you take your power with your car.   How heavy would a rechargeable chainsaw be?


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