# Farm house Rehab



## philupthegastank (Dec 13, 2014)

Hello,

Im new to the forum, but just wanted to post in an off topic forum about the rehab im doing.  I bought a 1900's 2,000 sq ft 2 story home in the northern midwest. It came with 5 perfect acres of a slight south facing hay field and 5 acres of woods that include apple trees, pine, birch and some hardwoods.  I bought it as is, so it was kind of a game, and i over payed, but hey im only 24, and i would have been bummed to not have gotten the house.  Anyway, the house came with a new roof, new siding and all brand new windows and two brand new doors, still has 2 old doors.  The inside needs to be completely gutted though.  So far we have replaced all the plumbing with copper, moved the bathroom and took down most walls and all of the plaster.  I would have left the plaster but it was cracked and falling in most of the rooms.  In spring My father in law and I are going to re wire the whole house, add outlets, get heating ducts ran to the upstairs, install a wood stove, and convert the oil furnace to gas and run a line for gas for cooking.  Also going to get the wood floors redone and add a bathroom to the 2nd floor.  Its all pretty exciting, and coming from a non handy family and being extremely non handy, its been fun to learn new skills related to home ownership.  Its also nice that my father in law is a master electrician. Unfortunately no pictures of the room where the actual wood stove is, but once we get going in spring ill be taking a lot more pictures.  

My wife walking in our field






some torn apart bedrooms: 












The house


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## BoilerMan (Dec 13, 2014)

Wow, did you strip and clean up all the plaster that once adorned those lathes?

That is one messy/dusty job!

TS


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## philupthegastank (Dec 13, 2014)

yeah, we did all of that. It came off super easy too, we took a flat headed shovel and just scooped it off.  It was insanely messy and dirty.  We were in cover alls, safety glasses and were wearing masks rated for mold/lead/toxins just to be extra careful.  Heres a shoot of when we used cement foots to make a garbage shoot into the dumpster.  The top picture is of my field getting limed.


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## johneh (Dec 13, 2014)

Are you going to pull the lathe ?
If not how are you planning to insulate
and thermal break the exterior walls ?


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## philupthegastank (Dec 13, 2014)

ive been researching a lot about vintage house restoration, and ive been reading conflicting arguments about insulating or not insulating.  Old houses like that werent designed with insulation in mind, so some say to leave it bare, and to just stop the air flow, caulk like crazy, and heavily insulate the attack and basement. others say to tear out the lathe and do batts, others say you can leave the lathe, and then do blow in insulation.  If im pulling the lathe, its just going to be me doing it, so part of me doesnt want to but im still investigating the best way to restore/renovate the house in regards to insulation. 

What are your thoughts?


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## peakbagger (Dec 14, 2014)

If you are leaving the lath up foam the walls. An old house is no different than  new house. as long as you keep it dry, there is no substitute for insulation. If you strip the lath, there is a lot to be said to do a composite system where you spray 2" of foam in the stud bays which cuts the infiltration to nothing and then insulate the remainder of the bay with conventional insulation. The only reason for this is save some bucks on foam. If you have 4" walls, I would go full foam. I know several folks with house from the mid 1800s that were spray with foam 25 years ago that have opened up the walls for renovations and have found no issues with foam. Just make sure that you get the wiring done first as fishing wires through foam is darn close to impossible.


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## Beer Belly (Dec 14, 2014)

What a great looking house, love it


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## gzecc (Dec 14, 2014)

Consider whats going to happen to all your wall thicknesses with the lath in place. Think about the widow, door and baseboard trim. I personally (being a contractor) wouldn't put foam in my walls because of my issues of future changes to the framing. I like conventional insulation.


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## johninwi (Dec 14, 2014)

I'd pull the lathe, allows for a thorough inspection of the structure, foam it for air infiltration, gzecc has a point about making changes in the future but foam can be removed easily enough, and if you've any idea of an addition or changes, sunroom, second floor deck or ? don't foam those areas.
I'd also insulate the interior walls for noise reduction, a buddy had remodeled his first home and done this, he moved to a new place and the entire family commented on how the noise traveled thru the walls. The lathe could be left in place on these walls and you could do blown in insulation?

On every exterior wall i'd put in an empty 4" or 2x4" square electrical box and pipe (EMT) it to the basement, future use. This will allow adding fiberoptics or whatever the next communication medium will be to any room you want. I added boxes and pipe to the basement in my place when it was reinsulated and resided, the guys thought i was nuts when i explained the empty boxes and pipe to nowhere. After doing a couple they thought it a fairly descent idea. Ask the FIL his opinion.

Another buddy has an 1850 farmhouse, brick, first year there furnace didn't shut off though the attic had 24" of insulation. He had old windows and lathe/plaster over the brick. He gutted it to the walls, new windows and studded, insulated and drywalled the place, it's a compltely different house. Hind sight being what it is he wishes he'd done 6" rather than 4".

I wander the web more than i should, recently i've taken to reading about passive house's and pretty good house standards, the passive house is unacheviable for remodeling and most budgets but the ideas of the passive and PGH idea can be used for remodeling. There are arguements for a house needing to breath, this should be easily controled by air exchanges. The question i still have is, is the air exchanger more expensive, initial and long term, than just accepting the loss's of leaking.

Plan now for outside air to your future wood stove.


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## philupthegastank (Dec 14, 2014)

thanks for all the advice and the replies.  Ill copy a picture of the 1st floor blueprints and where i plan on putting the stove.

When doing your own remodeling, what have you done when you have encountered lead paint?  Thankfully almost the whole house had no paint on the walls... all original wall paper.  Only two rooms have lead paint, should i just get coveralls, a nice hepa breathing filter and just make sure to tape off the rooms or do you have to pay a professional to do it?


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## johninwi (Dec 14, 2014)

I've not run into the problem, i've been fortunate to have a neightbor who is 85 and a very skilled carpenter who remembers the old days when latex paint came along, the lead paints were quickly abandon since they had an over night drying time, he says the likelyhood of my place having lead paint is very low.
Positive ventilation? Wait till warm outdoors and a large fan posibly filtered to capture the dust and bag it for disposal.
Wetting it to reduce dust would also be effective.


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## philupthegastank (Dec 14, 2014)

ive also searched the web for house renovation forums and cant come up with much, does anyone else have any leads?


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## Shari (Dec 14, 2014)

philupthegastank said:


> Thankfully almost the whole house had no paint on the walls... all original wall paper.  Only two rooms have lead paint..............



I question your statement above.  If you had/have painted doors (inside or outside doors), wood inside/outside trim, painted windows, painted cabinetry guaranteed you have lead paint.  I believe (in Wisconsin, where I live) the rule of thumb is any structure built before 1978 is to be considered to have lead paint and the proper way to remove it is to call in a pro.  There is always the discussion of what is better:  Remove or encapsulate?

If you have/had heating pipes encased in a white cast like material then have that surface checked for asbestos also.

You ambition makes me tired...........  probably because I'm old. 

Best wishes in your endeavors.


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## GENECOP (Dec 14, 2014)

Pull the lath.....insulate properly, nice project..good luck....


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## philupthegastank (Dec 14, 2014)

im already tired of it haha.

Ill be pulling the lath then in early spring, followed by new wiring, 2nd floor bathroom install, 2nd floor heating ducts install, new wood stove and flue, new insulation, new drywall, new trim, then painting, then ill be broke, tired and sick of that house.


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## peakbagger (Dec 15, 2014)

By the way, if the house is balloon frame, in most jurisdictions, you need to block in he openings between floors which is another good reason to pull the lath.


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## semipro (Dec 15, 2014)

Phil, you might want to spend some time reading in the the "DIY" and "Green" rooms here.  There's been quite a bit of discussion about building construction/upgrades that may interest you. 
Thanks for sharing.  That looks like a real nice place.   Its worth taking the time to research and do things right, especially if you're only 24.  You may be there for a while and don't want to spend your time there regretting something done wrong. 
Gutting without sealing and insulating would be one of those regrets.  You should check out "flash and batt" methods that seal and insulate economically.


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## philupthegastank (Dec 15, 2014)

thanks for the reply.  I mostly was just exhausted of thinking about pulling all the lathe, its just going to be me, for a 2,200 sq ft house, so its gonna take a while haha


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## semipro (Dec 15, 2014)

philupthegastank said:


> thanks for the reply.  I mostly was just exhausted of thinking about pulling all the lathe, its just going to be me, for a 2,200 sq ft house, so its gonna take a while haha


Bright side...lathe makes for good kindling though.


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## brian89gp (Dec 15, 2014)

A garden hoe works real good at removing lath.  Push through, pull off.  Can do a whole room very quickly including ceilings (without needing a ladder).  Wear gloves or the lath popping off will bloody your knuckles.

Fixing houses can break a person.  Take your time, do it in sections you can accomplish, and keep the whole thing in perspective.


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## philupthegastank (Dec 15, 2014)

thanks for that tip! Sorry the picture is backwards but we have filled up two dumpsters this size


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## brian89gp (Dec 15, 2014)

Looks like a 20yd.

You doing a historic restoration or a modern rehab using todays materials (not modern style, modern as in modern materials)?  I would guess more of a modern rehab since you took the plaster off and you have a standard pre-hung 6 panel steel door in one of the pictures.

If you are planning on staying in the house for a while I would consider spray foam.  Old houses leak worse then a sieve and a lot of heat loss is from air infiltration.  It looks like you are in a rural location and thus probably reliant on propane, oil, or wood and payback for foam would be a lot shorter for you then someone on natural gas.

PS.  House looks solid.  Straight lines, straight walls, straight roofline.  Poorly cared for houses of that age tend to be a lot more curvy after 114 years then yours is.


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## philupthegastank (Dec 15, 2014)

modern materials, the plaster was falling off the lathe, in most places it wasnt stuck anymore.  The plaster seemed to be very sand based, it would just crumble off, so we just took a flat headed shovel and could literally just scoop it off the wall.


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## philupthegastank (Dec 15, 2014)

most of the first floor has tar paper on the 1st half of the stud, with blow in insulation inside.  you can see the tar paper surrounding the exterior door.


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## philupthegastank (Dec 15, 2014)

Ive just read this about insulatting in a balloon framed house


"Because of where you live in the cold Northeast - I'm just above you in NH - it would be a GRAVE mistake to add insulation in the wall cavity.

The reason your house is still standing with no wood rot is simple. The balloon framing used in houses of that period - I lived in one back in Cincinnati, OH in the 1970's and 80's - allows water vapor that passes through the plaster and lath to be vented up into the attic of your home.

Once up there, it usually was able to dissipate out gable vents or through the roofing. Many older homes had roofing material and roof sheathing that would allow lots of air to pass through them, but not rain water back into the attic.

Balloon construction was probably invented to do this job as houses built without this open passageway probably developed rot in short time as the water vapor in the winter time would condense in the cavity and be unable to EVAPORATE quickly.

Read this column I just posted about Vapor Barriers vs House Wraps to give you more background.

If there was a way for you to install a vapor barrier to STOP the water vapor from getting into the wall cavity, then I'd say move ahead with the insulation. But I don't know of any TRUE paint-on or spray on vapor barrier that would provide enough of a seal."


what are your thoughts on this?


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## Jags (Dec 15, 2014)

brian89gp said:


> A garden hoe works real good at removing lath.



A crow bar also works very well.  Punch it through and start yanking it off.  It is surprising how fast you can move down a wall.  A good quality nail puller (hammer or otherwise) can be run down the studs later on while holding a beer in the other hand.


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## semipro (Dec 15, 2014)

I think you need to find better sources to research.  (Greenbuilding Adviser, Energy Vanguard, Building Science, Fine Home Building, ORNL, etc.)
Yes, Moisture control is critical to avoiding rot and mold. The best ways to avoid moisture problems include air sealing, weatherproofing, and insulation.  These are 3 different things.
- Control the flow of air that contains the water  (air barrier)
- Prevent water leaks into the structure (rain barrier)
- Allow walls and ceilings a way to dry either inward or outward in case moisture does make its way in
- Control the temps of surfaces that come into contact with moist interior air to a temp above the dew point (thermal insulation).  This prevents condensation.

Edit: It almost sounds like balloon framed houses were "invented" to keep firemen and coroners busy.


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## johninwi (Dec 15, 2014)

One of my projects was as messy as your is, but only one room, it was an addition off the back that attached to the kitchen. It had 2 doorways and a window, the window and 1 door i covered with plastic like you've done, the second doorway i built a "door" out of 1x4's and wraped it in plastic, at the edges i kept the plastic extra long and folded it back making pillows or flaps for seals, worked really well at controling dust. Used a bungee cord to pull it shut.


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## brian89gp (Dec 16, 2014)

philupthegastank said:


> Ive just read this about insulatting in a balloon framed house
> "Because of where you live in the cold Northeast - I'm just above you in NH - it would be a GRAVE mistake to add insulation in the wall cavity.
> The reason your house is still standing with no wood rot is simple. The balloon framing used in houses of that period - I lived in one back in Cincinnati, OH in the 1970's and 80's - allows water vapor that passes through the plaster and lath to be vented up into the attic of your home.
> Once up there, it usually was able to dissipate out gable vents or through the roofing. Many older homes had roofing material and roof sheathing that would allow lots of air to pass through them, but not rain water back into the attic.
> ...



Balloon framing was not invented for that reason.  Side effect maybe, but not invented for it.

Fire code requires fireblocking which would block whatever airflow that person is talking about.

Now there is some truth to what they said but in a convoluted manner.  Old houses do need that airflow in the wall cavities because they leak like a sieve and need some method to dry back out and because of that airflow there tends to be less rot.  Keep the water out and you don't need an empty wall cavity to dry things anymore.  A properly maintained house of any age will not have much if any rot though...


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## gzecc (Dec 16, 2014)

philupthegastank said:


> thanks for all the advice and the replies.  Ill copy a picture of the 1st floor blueprints and where i plan on putting the stove.
> 
> When doing your own remodeling, what have you done when you have encountered lead paint?  Thankfully almost the whole house had no paint on the walls... all original wall paper.  Only two rooms have lead paint, should i just get coveralls, a nice hepa breathing filter and just make sure to tape off the rooms or do you have to pay a professional to do it?


 
Lead paint is only a problem for kids. It won't hurt a healthy adult. Be sure any lead residue is removed with a hepa vacumn for future generations. For homeowners there are no regulations for removal of lead only contractors (last time I checked).


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