# Need Help With Smoke Leaking Into Home



## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Brother Bart, why did you close down the thread I posted? The questions I asked are legitimate and I appreciated the answers I received. I get that the subject is controversial but that's all the more reason to have the discussion; to see if we can separate out the legitimate concerns from those that we don't need to worry about. 

In answer to some of the questions, the smoke seems to be coming off the top of the stove. It had disappeared for a time. Most likely the pipe soot had blocked the leak. But the dealer recently added a collar at the base of the stove pipe and now we can smell it again. However, it might also be coming from the cat probe hole. I'm pretty sure the door is sealing tight. 

Occasionally, the stove will stall and then, after I turn the t-stat all the way up, there's a sort of explosion inside the stove where all at once the flames ignite. When that happens, it blows a big puff of smoke into the room right at the seams between the collar and the chimney. However, there's a leak separate and apart from that too. 

At this point, I'm quite frustrated. So much so I'm thinking of shutting the stove down until we can figure out what's going on. We have an infant and I don't want to hurt him. Can a child survive wood smoke? I'm sure. My mom smoked when I was a kid and I'm alive. But it wasn't the best thing to do. 

We live in Bellingham, about 2 hours north of Seattle. Overall air quality is excellent. 

I notice there's usually some smoke coming from my stove. It's a catalytic stove, a Blaze King Ashford. I wonder sometimes if it should burn more cleanly. Most of the pollution goes up and drifts away, particularly now that the stove pipe has been extended to 26 feet. However, at wet times (like this morning) the smoke will sometimes blow downward into our yard. It's a modern house so the windows should be relatively tight. I don't know how much pollution gets in but the 70% number that I read scared me.


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## drz1050 (Feb 2, 2015)

I'm sorry, I didn't read the entirety of the other thread.. but what makes you think a little bit of wood smoke is that bad for you?

I'm not saying go suck on your chimney.. but at the dissipated levels where it becomes just a slight smell.. what's the problem? 

Is smoke a carcinogen? Sure. So is the sun. Do you ever sear your steak in a cast iron pan? 

Oxygen depravation is a terrible thing, especially for a developing mind in a child. You'd need to have a LOT of smoke in that room before you alter the O2% by a significant amount though.


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## ailanthus (Feb 2, 2015)

That new collar can stink for awhile as the paint cures.  Also the backpuffing (explosion) you describe as well as an outside smoke smell indicate that you're not operating the stove properly.  With a clean burning stove like the Ashford, there shouldn't be even a whiff of smoke smell outside after it's up to operating temp.  I don't have a catalytic stove, but if you describe how you're operating it, someone'll be along to help figure out what's going on.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 2, 2015)

ailanthus said:


> That new collar can stink for awhile as the paint cures. Also the backpuffing (explosion) you describe as well as an outside smoke smell indicate that you're not operating the stove properly


+1

Obviously,there should not be any smoke leaking around the collar. Period. Is your chimney clogged?

It seems you may not be operating it at a high enough temperatures. Try not cutting down the primary air as much.

And I would call BK and speak with customer service.

Andrew


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## rdust (Feb 2, 2015)

The puff back is a draft issue, the smoke is building up in the stove then exploding, the smoke is going to find places to escape.  The "leak" is probably also draft related, if the smoke isn't getting pulled from the stove it's going to find the easiest place to exit.  How low are you running the stove?  Have you tried giving it a little more air? 

Modern stoves seal up pretty well but I don't consider them "air tight".  I've seen "smoke" generating machines used to find air noise leaks in cars, I wonder if something like this could be placed in the stove and see where the smoke finds it's way out.  It worked by filling the car with "smoke" then you looked around the door seals to see where it was escaping from.


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## branchburner (Feb 2, 2015)

You've raised two issues. One, in the title of your thread(s), is that smoke is bad for you. No matter how expert the experts are, there will always be some disagreement over exactly what threshold of exposure is "safe" for either healthy adults or for the very young or very old who are more prone to distress/damage. Probably the reason Bart closed your thread is that because for a properly installed and operated wood stove, it is essentially A NON-ISSUE: there is virtually no smoke in the living space. No smoke = no danger. More smoke = more danger, but a wood stove should not be creating any smoke INSIDE at all.

As for the 70% number, as was pointed out, that is your OVERALL outdoor air quality, not 70% of what goes out your very own chimney. Think about it for a moment: by what mechanism would it be possible for 70% of what was going out your chimney to all be redirected inside, and to return to the interior of your house, rather than be rapidly dispersed and diluted as it left the chimney? It's inconceivable. If that was what occurred, all of us would not only be sick, we'd be dead, and therefore we'd be posting on this site much less frequently than we do.

More logically, if your system produces a lot of smoke (like an inefficient OWB), it is going to go downwind and partly into the house of someone ELSE, and cause THEM distress. But the whole point of high efficiency stoves (like yours) is that the smoke itself is mostly burned, as fuel, leaving particulate emissions very low.

The second issue you bring up is your particular situation, for which you should perhaps start a new thread with a new title so that you might solve the problem. Smoke spillage and backpuffing is unacceptable and results from either poor draft, poor wood, poor operation, or some combination thereof. It's that simple. Fix the problem(s) and any questions on the dangers of wood smoke become moot.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 2, 2015)

You have a back puffing issue. That can be solved with advice from here. Titling it as looking for advice on the respiratory effects of wood smoke just makes a thread that rambles on forever. No medical experts here that I know of.


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## Jags (Feb 2, 2015)

...But I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.

Smoke should not be infiltrating your home.  Fix that and respiratory ailments from smoke in your home becomes mute.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax, I had a very similar problem with my Progress Hybrid.  I was one of the earlier purchasers and was experiencing a smoke smell coming from the rear right corner of the stove top on the loading door side.  My wood was OK (21% MC) not great but passable, my flue was brand new, and my house had a slight negative pressure.  I posted a message on this site asking for help and got many suggestions, but the smell persisted.  I then contacted Woodstock with the problem and they informed me that approx. 10% of the first production run stoves were having this issue and that they were trying to isolate the problem.  They were using a very sensitive 'smoke sniffer' machine to try and pinpoint the exact location of the leak.  They were also testing the stove design further in various situations of draft and negative house pressure.  Several months later they contacted me and said they had found the problem and were working on a fix.  A few weeks after that I received a repair kit in the mail with a link to a youtube video demonstration.  The problem was with the design of the loading door gasket and the door hinge channel.  Once I installed the new gasket system and a block off plate for the hinge channel, the smoke problem was completely solved.  Now you would never know I had a wood stove burning in my house.  The point is that there probably is a solution for your problem.  First try the good suggestions you will get from this site.  But also try and get your local dealer involved and most importantly get Blaze King involved.  Your issue may be something that only the manufacturer can solve.  Mine was.  I can really appreciate your concern and frustration over the smoke smell in your home.  As others have stated here, there should be NO smoke smell.  Every once in a while you might turn your air down to quickly and get a back puff, but that is operator error and easily corrected.  Also, trying to reload when there are active flames or smoldering wood will  often result in some spillage, but that also is operating error and easily avoided.  But a continue smoke smell coming off the stove during normal operations is just plain wrong and must be corrected.  Try not to be discouraged and keep working on the problem.  With help from here and Blaze King you should be able to solve this.  Good luck.


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## Poindexter (Feb 2, 2015)

I agree wholeheartedly with TennDave.

When my Ashford went in the install techs used a single to double adapter between my telescoping DWSP and the enamel top on my Ashford 30.  Apparently getting the enamel top back on with screws sticking out of DWSP at the collar was a bit of an issue, at least for my local guys.  I am not exactly in the heart of Amish craftmanship country here.

The draft on this stove for me, having run a Phase I non cat under the same pipe last year, is the most finicky I remember in my life. Mine is manageable, and I expected a learning curve with my first cat stove; but I am starting to think there is more going on than just the short stack I ran with no trouble last year.

I am burning my coals down right now anyway.  I need to lift the pipe and check the gasket that seals the airdoor to the firebox when the cat is engaged, mine doesn't seem like it is running quite right with the cat engaged since I cleaned the pipe on Friday.

I am going to try to put mine back together without the sw-dw sp adapter.

You might try a small fire in your with the enamel top off to see if you can locate your leak a little better.  The top just lifts off, no tools required after you lift the cat probe out.  A small fire.  Maybe even a small fire with the top off and your DWSP going straight to the stove collar.

Just an idea...


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## maple1 (Feb 2, 2015)

I suspect that the title of that other thread (and this one too for that matter) wasn't doing much for pointing out the specific issue you want addressed and opens up the dialogue to all kinds of philosophical discussion. Something more like 'why does my stove smoke?' would likely have worked better.

And on that - what is the moisture content of your wood, and exactly what do you have for a chimney? Then pictures always help.

Unless you really did want to discuss the respiratory aspects of wood smoke inhalation?


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 2, 2015)

maple1 said:


> I suspect that the title of that other thread (and this one too for that matter) wasn't doing much for pointing out the specific issue you want addressed and opens up the dialogue to all kinds of philosophical discussion. Something more like 'why does my stove smoke?' would likely have worked better.
> 
> And on that - what is the moisture content of your wood, and exactly what do you have for a chimney? Then pictures always help.
> 
> Unless you really did want to discuss the respiratory aspects of wood smoke inhalation?


Instead of killing the thread, perhaps the moderators could change the title to something like Ashford Smoke Problem?  That would make it very clear that someone is asking for help with a smoke issue.


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## Jags (Feb 2, 2015)

Tenn Dave said:


> Instead of killing the thread, perhaps the moderators could change the title to something like Ashford Smoke Problem?  That would make it very clear that someone is asking for help with a smoke issue.



Generally we don't take it upon ourselves to make title changes (peeps get all touchy about that stuff) unless requested.  The OP has the ability to change the title, or if he/she needs help, one of us mods would be more than happy to help.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 2, 2015)

The first of the three pages of posts in the thread I closed last night. Just what would anybody suggest other than the title it had for this? Nothing about a stove problem.

"My wife and I are new to wood burning. We have an infant. He was born last summer and this is our first winter with the stove. We've done our best to shield him from smoke, but the stove has produced some smoke in the house. Many of the articles I've read online indicate the burning wood is more dangerous than smoking cigarettes, that 70% of the pollution that's vented outside the home gets back in, and that there are many long-term risks (such as cancer) to which young children are most vulnerable.

I'm wondering what the experts around here think. Clearly, people have been burning wood for millennia. But then again, the average lifespan until quite recently was probably around 40."


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## maple1 (Feb 2, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> The first of the three pages of posts in the thread I closed last night. Just what would anybody suggest other than the title it had for this? Nothing about a stove problem.
> 
> "My wife and I are new to wood burning. We have an infant. He was born last summer and this is our first winter with the stove. We've done our best to shield him from smoke, but the stove has produced some smoke in the house. Many of the articles I've read online indicate the burning wood is more dangerous than smoking cigarettes, that 70% of the pollution that's vented outside the home gets back in, and that there are many long-term risks (such as cancer) to which young children are most vulnerable.
> 
> I'm wondering what the experts around here think. Clearly, people have been burning wood for millennia. But then again, the average lifespan until quite recently was probably around 40."


 
Also true.

Don't think you'd find an answer to 'how much wood smoke is safe for my kid' - but would be sure to get lots of dialogue if that's what is being sought, and were were on our way there. None of which would likely be helpful to anything though.


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## F4jock (Feb 2, 2015)

Dead horse. Stop beating it. 

If the issue is a stove problem, that we can help with.

If your aim is to discuss the health drawbacks of burning wood or coal may I respectfully suggest you find an environmentalist website and enjoy.

If the issue is "An occasional few whiffs of smoke is gonna kill me and mine." you won't get much sympathy here, and lots of people will suggest you ditch the wood and burn gas or oil.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Just changed the title. Great suggestions. I've been trying to reach the dealer. He's been great in terms of standing behind his work. He's just a little hard to reach, probably because they're real busy this time of year. I want to impress upon him a sense of urgency though because this been going on a while and it's not good for a 6 month old. I feel terrible about having already exposed him to smoke. Will also call Blaze King. Chris (BKVP) has been great. I don't know what we could be doing wrong in terms of technique -- which doesn't mean I'm not screwing up; just that I'm not seeing it. If I run the stove lower, the cat stalls. If I run it higher, there's more smoke. At this point, we're using compressed firelogs because our dry wood supply ran out. The smell isn't quite as bad when I use the Doug Fir in the shed, but it's at around 25% and not putting out as much heat as it would if it were dryer. The firelogs are from a company called Homefire. They sell seconds. The other day I drove over and they placed a huge pallet in the bed of my pickup -- around 1800 pounds (or eight wheelbarrows full when I unloaded) for $150. Seems like good stuff.


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## Grisu (Feb 2, 2015)

Maybe a draft measurement would be in order when you turn up the air and the smoke smell increases. Almost sounds like you have a leak and the draft is not enough to keep the smoke in. You said you see sometimes the smoke in your yard. Are those days worse with the in-house smoke smell? Maybe the negative pressure generated by the stove pulls some of the smoke that goes outside back in. Or do you have an OAK? 



Parallax said:


> I feel terrible about having already exposed him to smoke.



Is that your first child?


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Run through the whole setup for us top to bottom plase we will be able to help more if you do.  And exactly when and where are you getting smoke?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

What do you mean by the whole setup? We've got an Ashford 30 in brown enamel (though I'm guessing the finish doesn't matter). There is an OAK. Installation is at the back corner of the home, coming off a one-story section of the home sitting about four feet from a two-story section. The chimney originally ran 22 feet which was shy of the peak of the second story roof. With trees on the other side of the house (we back up against miles of woods -- which around here means Doug Firs, Cedars and Hemlocks that rise 200 or more feet), the smoke tended to get trapped. We have one neighbor, who was getting most of the downwind. So the dealer raised the chimney another four feet, taking it even with the peak of the second story roof. Now the smoke tends to go up almost all the time. Just one or two days, when there's been rain, have I noticed some down drafting into the yard. The neighbor has been appreciative of these efforts.

Even when the stove was first installed, and we were using some nice dry wood I'd picked up from a neighbor who gave up burning, there was a smoky smell in the house. I don't think it was worse when we were using wet wood. If anything, it seems worst when burning the compressed logs. Not sure if it's coming from the probe hole, the stove pipe (possibly at the collar), or elsewhere. I'm stumped as to what's causing what you guys called "backpuffing." To me, it's an internal explosion within the stove.


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## jatoxico (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I'm stumped as to what's causing what you guys called "backpuffing." To me, it's an internal explosion within the stove.


No cat stove here but mini explosions (whoofing) and cat stalls are primarily due to air starvation are they not?


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## begreen (Feb 2, 2015)

Yes, that and weak draft and sometimes poorly seasoned wood can all contribute to backpuffing. But usually it is too little air. The fire goes out and smolders and a large amount of wood gas accumulates in the stove. My guess is then the thermostat opens and a flame appears that ignites the wood gas.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Your chimney setup sounds like it should be ok from your description.  Have you tried cracking a window or door to see if that helps the problem?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Could the OAK or the chimney be clogged?


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## Jags (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> To me, it's an internal explosion within the stove.



That is exactly what "backpuffing" is.  To much fuel (smoke) with too little oxygen to ignite it.  Finally, it will pull in air from wherever it can (even down the stack) and the ignition is akin to a small explosion.  Like lighting gas poured onto a bonfire.

ETA - the correction to this condition usually comes in the form of a little more primary air.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> Your chimney setup sounds like it should be ok from your description.  Have you tried cracking a window or door to see if that helps the problem?


Running the stove with the window open? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a wood stove?


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## Grisu (Feb 2, 2015)

There are quite a few threads about "backpuffing" already. The stove accumulates too much volatile gases in the firebox which is starved for oxygen. Once it hits air in conjunction with the hot catalyst it will set off an explosion-like rapid combustion. Since that is too much to go out through your cat into the flue, the pressure may push out some of the smoke through the air inlet and maybe gaskets if those are not quite tight. Giving the fire more air should stop that backpuffing. 

Do you have an idea what the cat and flue temps are when you notice the smoke smell?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Jags said:


> That is exactly what "backpuffing" is.  To much fuel (smoke) with too little oxygen to ignite it.  Finally, it will pull in air from wherever it can (even down the stack) and the ignition is akin to a small explosion.  Like lighting gas poured onto a bonfire.


Thanks for the description. That's exactly what it seems like. When the explosion comes, it then pushes exhaust out through the seam between the collar and the stove and between the collar and the stove pipe. But that's not the only source of the leak. 

Just tried to reach Chris at Blaze King (BKVP around here). He's out of town for three weeks.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Running the stove with the window open? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a wood stove?


I am not talking about leaving it open as a final solution just as a diagnostic tool to see if the stove is starving for air.  Also what side of the house is the oak inlet on?  If it is away from the wind it can cause a negative pressure in the oak.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Grisu said:


> There are quite a few threads about "backpuffing" already. The stove accumulates too much volatile gases in the firebox which is starved for oxygen. Once it hits air in conjunction with the hot catalyst it will set off an explosion-like rapid combustion. Since that is too much to go out through your cat into the flue, the pressure may push out some of the smoke through the air inlet and maybe gaskets if those are not quite tight. Giving the fire more air should stop that backpuffing.
> 
> Do you have an idea what the cat and flue temps are when you notice the smoke smell?



Sometimes the smell is worse than at other times but the correlation doesn't always seem clear. Probably worst when the stove is turned up high. We haven't used the fan because it made the smell worse.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Sounds like you need the draft measured to start with.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> I am not talking about leaving it open as a final solution just as a diagnostic tool to see if the stove is starving for air.  Also what side of the house is the oak inlet on?  If it is away from the wind it can cause a negative pressure in the oak.



Okay, makes sense. The air inlet is right under the stove, which is on the backside of the house (thus surrounded on all sides by trees and the house itself). The rear of the house faces west and a bit south.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> Sounds like you need the draft measured to start with.


How does one measure draft?


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> How does one measure draft?


With a manometer your installer should have one.  




Parallax said:


> Okay, makes sense. The air inlet is right under the stove, which is on the backside of the house (thus surrounded on all sides by trees and the house itself). The rear of the house faces west and a bit south.


and where does the prevailing wind come from?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> Your chimney setup sounds like it should be ok from your description.  Have you tried cracking a window or door to see if that helps the problem?



How would that help?


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> How would that help?


If the stove is starving for air it could help even with the oak hooked up.  You could also try unhooking the oak and see how it runs like that.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> With a manometer your installer should have one.
> 
> and where does the prevailing wind come from?


It seems to come from the other side of the house (either north or east or some combination). Plus the yard sits in a negative pressure zone, surrounded by house and trees.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> If the stove is starving for air it could help even with the oak hooked up.  You could also try unhooking the oak and see how it runs like that.


Interesting idea. Not sure I would pull off the pipe myself but something to run by the dealer. If the problem is draft, and the chimney can't go up any higher, what does one do? The draft is way better than before they raised the stack but we're still getting smoke. Perhaps less; I'm not sure.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

It really sounds like it is starving for air to me but i am not there to see it in person.  With the height you have your draft should be enough but again hard to say with out being there


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## Squirrel (Feb 2, 2015)

If your stove is in a single story addition to an older house your house may be a better chimney than your chimney!! If the addition is more airtight than the original house the two storys of leakier house may be letting an awful lot of air out, especially on a windy day.
Quote from www.woodheat.org "Hearths installed in single story sections of two story houses almost always perform badly."


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

And the fact that the oak is on the side away from the prevailing wind could cause a problem to.  Personally i would measure the draft first but from your description i dont think that is the issue.  Then unhook the oak and see what happens then crack a window or door.  If none of that changes it then you need to start looking for other issues.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Squirrel said:


> If your stove is in a single story addition to an older house your house may be a better chimney than your chimney!! If the addition is more airtight than the original house the two storys of leakier house may be letting an awful lot of air out, especially on a windy day.


Yeah stack effect could be causing the issue for sure but a good oak should resolve that.  I have a feeling it is a combination of issues.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

The house is newer. It was built in 2006. There's no addition. It was just built with setbacks so the lower story could have skylights (we've got 12 of them). Seems to be well built. No drafts I can detect within the house. 

Hopefully the dealer can come out and measure this stuff. Still trying to get hold of him. Also, unable to reach Chris, I called the other Blaze King office (in Canada) and left a message for their tech guy.


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## Grisu (Feb 2, 2015)

What are your normal flue temps?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Grisu said:


> What are your normal flue temps?


I don't know. We don't have a probe on the flue.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I don't know. We don't have a probe on the flue.


You need to get one that would help you pinpoint when the problem is occuring


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## Grisu (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I don't know. We don't have a probe on the flue.



Sorry, I must have messed you up with someone else. I though you had one. Agree with bholler, in your case having one would make the diagnostics easier.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Can talk to the dealer about drilling one in. My wife wanted to avoid it because she didn't like the look. The dealer suggested not compromising the pipe. Would give us another hole through which smoke could come. But if it makes sense to put one in, we will.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Would give us another hole through which smoke could come.


If you get it working right the chimney should be under a vacuum and no smoke will come out.  What other holes do you have?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> If you get it working right the chimney should be under a vacuum and no smoke will come out.  What other holes do you have?


Yeah, well, getting it right; that's the thing, isn't it? The other hole is the probe in the top of the stove that measures when we're in range to engage the catalytic combustor.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

You are getting smoke out of the cat probe hole?   Wow it might be bad draft then you need to get a pro out there with a manometer


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> You are getting smoke out of the cat probe hole?   Wow it might be bad draft then you need to get a pro out there with a manometer


I don't know where the smoke is coming from. My sense is it's coming from the seam between the collar that attaches the top of the stove to the stove pipe but I could be wrong. We were getting it when that collar wasn't there. It might have been coming from the connection of the pipe to the stove itself. The smell seemed to go away. The dealer guessed enough soot had built up to seal it shut. He added the collar hoping that would correct the problem, so it didn't occur after each time the stove pipe was disconnected for cleaning. Instead, we seem to have caused the problem to recur. But it could be that it's actually been from the probe hole all along. So much of this investigation has required guess work -- hopefully educated.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> But it could be that it's actually been from the probe hole all along.


That would surprise me but i guess it is possible


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

I hope you're right because that would seem harder to fix. 

I wonder if the leakage from the stove pipe is there but within normal tolerances and the smoke is being forced through because of inadequate draft or a problem with the cold air coming into the burn chamber.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I wonder if the leakage from the stove pipe is there but within normal tolerances and the smoke is being forced through because of inadequate draft or a problem with the cold air coming into the burn chamber.


stove pipe is never really sealed your problem i would say is either with inadequate draft of not enough air.  If you dont have good draft you will get smoke no matter what you do


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> stove pipe is never really sealed your problem i would say is either with inadequate draft of not enough air.  If you dont have good draft you will get smoke no matter what you do



How can that be fixed if you can't raise the pipe any higher?


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Well you can always raise the pipe but if it is proper height a vacustack cap might help But again i am not there to see it.  Can you take a pic of the chimney from outside?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> Well you can always raise the pipe but if it is proper height a vacustack cap might help But again i am not there to see it.  Can you take a pic of the chimney from outside?


By the time I get home tonight it will be dark but will do that in the morning and post it here.


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## Wood Duck (Feb 2, 2015)

Are you sure the smoke smell is coming from the stove, rather than from outside? With my house and the right wind we will get a vortex behind the house that will pull smoke from the chimney into the front yard. This smell can easily come in through the front door. Raising my stack helped, but this still happens. The smell is stronger at the front door than it is near the stove.

I haven't had backpuffing in my stove, but it seems like it could open cracks in the stove or pipe, which would then become leaks.

Your draft should be stronger when the flue gets hot after a few hours of use. Does this happen with your stove?


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## Poindexter (Feb 2, 2015)

I took my SWSP to DWSP adapter off the stove collar this afternoon and just got the stove restarted.  

I used hex head sheet metal screws and have about .020" clearance between the enamel surface of the top and the closest screw head.

I relit the stove this time using the small basket of kindling method and noticed personal draft - my stove - my install - is much improved without the adapter on start up.  Now that I have the cat engaged the cat temp is climbing much slower than I am accustomed to, but it is climbing.

The adapter I took out, compared to my BK stove and my ICC Excell chimney parts is frankly made of sleazy Italian scrap tin, I am talking rejects from the Fiat factory for exhaust pipe.

Odd.  I do think Parallax is going to maybe need some manometer testing, but a small run with the enamel top off might narrow down a leak without having to go to the trouble.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 2, 2015)

Wood Duck said:


> Are you sure the smoke smell is coming from the stove, rather than from outside? With my house and the right wind we will get a vortex behind the house that will pull smoke from the chimney into the front yard. This smell can easily come in through the front door. Raising my stack helped, but this still happens. The smell is stronger at the front door than it is near the stove.
> 
> I haven't had backpuffing in my stove, but it seems like it could open cracks in the stove or pipe, which would then become leaks.
> 
> Your draft should be stronger when the flue gets hot after a few hours of use. Does this happen with your stove?


With a properly engaged cat, there should be no smoke smell coming out of the chimney.


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## rdust (Feb 2, 2015)

Post a picture of the chimney from the outside if you can.  The way I'm reading it even with the extra height the chimney is still just even with the highest peak only 4 feet away?  The chimney needs to be 2' higher than the roof within 10'.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

rdust said:


> Post a picture of the chimney from the outside if you can.  The way I'm reading it even with the extra height the chimney is still just even with the highest peak only 4 feet away?  The chimney needs to be 2' higher than the roof within 10'.



The peak of the roof is way more than 4 feet away. The edge of the roof of the second story is about 4 feet back from the edge of the roof of the first story. Even without the extra four feet of pipe, the installation met code requirements.


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## rdust (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> The peak of the roof is way more than 4 feet away. The edge of the roof of the second story is about 4 feet back from the edge of the roof of the first story. Even without the extra four feet of pipe, the installation met code requirements.



Gotcha, I'm picturing a chimney surrounded by roofs and valleys with tall trees surrounding it.  A picture is worth how many words?


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## webby3650 (Feb 2, 2015)

I didn't read all of the discussion above. Did you ever have double wall connector pipe installed?
How is the OAK routed? Your stove is starving for air as well as suffering from poor draft. With a tall flue and an OAK it shouldn't be, as you know. Something is causing this to happen. Chimneys suck smoke and air out of the stove, it's as simple as that. If it is leaking smoke, something is causing it. Something is preventing the stove from working properly.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I didn't read all of the discussion above. Did you ever have double wall connector pipe installed?
> How is the OAK routed? Your stove is starving for air as well as suffering from poor draft. With a tall flue and an OAK it shouldn't be, as you know. Something is causing this to happen. Chimneys suck smoke and air out of the stove, it's as simple as that. If it is leaking smoke, something is causing it. Something is preventing the stove from working properly.



Are you referring to the collar connecting the stove to the stove pipe? I think it's double walled. It seemed like it was made from cheap metal but I saw a divider in there. I figured that's double wall. 

Webby, if it were your job to fix, how would you go about diagnosing the problem.


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## webby3650 (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Are you referring to the collar connecting the stove to the stove pipe? I think it's double walled. It seemed like it was made from cheap metal but I saw a divider in there. I figured that's double wall.
> 
> Webby, if it were your job to fix, how would you go about diagnosing the problem.


How is the OAK routed? What size is it? Is it insulated?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> How is the OAK routed? What size is it? Is it insulated?


It comes from the wall behind the stove up into the burn chamber. I'm not sure of the size. Will take photos tomorrow morning and post them here. I don't believe it's insulated but I'm not sure. It doesn't get all that cold around here.


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## maple1 (Feb 2, 2015)

Randoms:

-A Dwyer Mark II Model 25 manometer is cheap. Then you have the tool to get & keep your draft right.

-If the top of chimney is not higher than the highest roof, it might still be too short. Tall trees also complicate.

-If the OAK intake is not on the side of the house that prevailing winds hit, it might actually be 
sucking against the chimney.

-You might have some creosote buildup from this sluggish performance. First thing to do is inspect the chimney & clean if necessary.


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## begreen (Feb 2, 2015)

To test the oak theory I would run it with the oak disconnected for a day, with a nearby window open 1/4".


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## maple1 (Feb 2, 2015)

begreen said:


> To test the oak theory I would run it with the oak disconnected for a day, with a nearby window open 1/4".



And maybe on the opposite side of the house?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Is it safe to just disconnect the OAK? Just leave a hole there for it to suck air right into the stove from the house itself?


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## begreen (Feb 2, 2015)

Yes, lots if not most stoves run this way, mine included.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

What prevents sparks from coming through that intake into the house? Or smoke from coming out?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Too dark to get photos of the chimney tonight. But here's the OAK.


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## Poindexter (Feb 2, 2015)

How does the OAK intake look on the outside of the house?


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

And here's the new collar on the stove pipe. Forgive the dust on the top of the stove. At this moment, it's the last thing I'm concerned about.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Here are photos of the vent attaching the outside to the OAK:


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## Poindexter (Feb 2, 2015)

Do you have a pair of gloves thick enough to pull the cat probe and lift the enameled top off without hurting yourself?  

I can assure you you won't want to carry the top very far even if it is stone cold.


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## Poindexter (Feb 2, 2015)

Parallax said:


> What prevents sparks from coming through that intake into the house? Or smoke from coming out?



I haven't run an OAK yet. On the Ashford there is a air intake on the bottom at the back in the center.  Your (and my) intake air runs up the back of the stove to the thermostatically controlled air valve at the top, and then back down a ways before forking into the left and right air chambers in the firebox that feed the airwash with preheated air just inside the loading door at the front of the unit.  

Your not getting sparks back out of that unless you load the stove with gunpowder.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Ok, cool. 

I've pulled off the enamel top a few times. Can do it again. I assume I should reinsert the probe into the hole.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

Another clue (or maybe not). When I open the t-stat all the way, there's more air available for the fire than when it's turned down. But when I leave the door of the stove open just a crack, there's way, way more air for the fire (and it's not even close). When the stove was brand new, I'm not sure there was as much of a difference. Was still, of course, more air when the door was open. But maybe not to this extent. I've been wondering if the OAK could be clogged.


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## bholler (Feb 2, 2015)

Poindexter said:


> Do you have a pair of gloves thick enough to pull the cat probe and lift the enameled top off without hurting yourself?
> I can assure you you won't want to carry the top very far even if it is stone cold.


I am curious what removing the cast top will do.  Not being critical i just dont follow.


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## Parallax (Feb 2, 2015)

I'm sniffing around to try to figure out where the smoke smell is coming from. Gotta get my cardboard tube or my cpap mask and hose.


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## Isaiah53 (Feb 2, 2015)

I believe you were in on the discussion BKVP made about resetting the thermostat knob, but I don't recall if this was your issue or not. I decided to check my Ashford out before I ever fired it as a result of his comment.  I found that the damper was set such that it did not move off of its closed setting until the T-stat was around 2.0-2.5 and it would only open 45 degrees at full open.  I am not sure if I messed it up in the inspection, but I ended up having to reset the set screw on the damper, not just the outside knob in order to get it to work properly where it would go full closed to full open.  It seemed as though the set screw may have come loose (or maybe I accidentally loosened it), but the damper can become disconnected from your T-stat knob.


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## drz1050 (Feb 2, 2015)

when you leave the door cracked, is any smoke coming out?


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## drz1050 (Feb 2, 2015)

bholler said:


> I am curious what removing the cast top will do.  Not being critical i just dont follow.



The cast top can act as a diffuser, taking the leak and spreading it out across a wide area. Removing that blocking plate (the cast top) can help to pinpoint it


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## branchburner (Feb 2, 2015)

Sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread, but has your flue been cleaned yet this season? I glanced at some earlier posts and noticed you had been burning sub-par wood for some time, and as I recall you were getting quite a bit of visible smoke outside the house at times (in addition to the indoor smells). Ideally, your stove will not only be smoke-free inside, it will yield very little outside smoke except on start-ups and reloads. If you've been getting lots of smoke, you probably have been producing a fair amount of creosote, too.

I wonder if the cat was actually burning smoke previously in some of your longer, slower burns, or if instead you were largely just smoldering the wet wood and running a creosote factory. Heavy outdoor smoke would indicate the latter. If so, the situation feeds back on itself, as the creosote buildup further restricts draft, creating even more creosote, further restricting draft.

So I'd give the flue a sweep, get a flue probe so you know temps are high enough, and maybe try burning without the OAK just to rule that out. Do not worry about smoke pouring out of the flue-probe hole or the air inlet... once you diagnose and resolve the cause of the smoke and backpuffing, and the system is drafting properly and you are burning dry cord wood, there will be no smoke issue at all. 

Think of your flue system like a straw: as long as you are sucking, nothing can spill out the bottom or even out of small seams in the straw, it can only be pulled in. But if the straw is clogged at either the top or the bottom, flow is restricted. For whatever reason(s), your current wood-burning experience is sucking because your flue system isn't! I wouldn't rule anything out yet, even a clogged OAK or a defective stove, but I do believe a few months of burning wet wood and the resulting creosote could be adding to the problem.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

That could very well be. Would be a good idea to clean the stack. Was going to order some brushes to do it myself. Perhaps I'll just bring someone in this first time to make sure it's done right. 

Here are some photos taken this morning. When I came downstairs, the stove still had tons of fuel but was almost out of the cat range. It seemed like the fire wasn't getting enough air. The t-stat was set to 2 (and it has been adjusted pursuant to BKVP's instructions). 

In the past, I might have turned it all the way up. Most of the time it would just fire back up but sometimes it would do nothing for a few moments and then I'd get a giant back puff. This time, not wanting to chance the back puff, I turned it up just a bit. A few minutes later, there was fire in the box. The photo below captures the flames. I then went outside and took these photos. Because the sky was overcast, you can't see the smoke coming from the stack but it was substantial. Hopefully you can at least see the height of the chimney in relation to the peak of the roof. 

I later turned the t-stat back down but there was still smoke coming from the stack. Less of it, but it rarely gets to the point where there's no smoke. I don't know if that's normal or problematic. If it is a problem, perhaps it's due to not getting enough air from the OAK. 

Also, with regard to the back puffing, was the issue operator error (due to my having turned the t-stat up too fast) or should such things not happen no matter how fast one raises the setting? 

(Sorry for the sideways photos. I can take the time to rotate them if anyone needs that in order to glean the information they contain.)


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2015)

There should be virtually no visible smoke burning normally.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

I wish figuring out what's wrong wasn't so damn hard.


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2015)

Does the stove smoke like this all the time? How is your dealer helping you?


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Has this been a problem from the start or is it a new development?


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

I'm not sure. There were times when it didn't smoke much at the very beginning and there still are occasions, toward the end of a burn, when I'll look up and see no smoke. But I think it's gotten worse. The fire box seems more starved for air, though this is just my impression. 

The dealer doesn't seem to know a lot. He increased the height of the chimney without charge. But yesterday he left a message about waiting to see if the smoke stops getting into the house as the leak gets filled with soot (which is what happened last time). This is a completely unacceptable solution, as the leak would recur every time the stove pipe was opened for cleaning. I've not even asked him about the fact that the chimney smoke is always present. He's not an expert on the Blaze King and would say that's normal.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

I was under the impression that it smoked from the start in that case i would start by cleaning the chimney and making sure the oak is not clogged


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> That could very well be. Would be a good idea to clean the stack. Was going to order some brushes to do it myself. Perhaps I'll just bring someone in this first time to make sure it's done right.
> 
> Here are some photos taken this morning. When I came downstairs, the stove still had tons of fuel but was almost out of the cat range. It seemed like the fire wasn't getting enough air. The t-stat was set to 2 (and it has been adjusted pursuant to BKVP's instructions).
> 
> ...


I have a different stove all together, but when my cat is engaged there is virtually no visible smoke and no outside smoke smell.  Depending on weather conditions, sometimes I get a tiny bit of white water vapor coming out of the stack.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

How does one check the OAK for clogging? Just remove and inspect? 

Also, could a stack in need of cleaning cause the smoke?


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Also, could a stack in need of cleaning cause the smoke?


Absolutly it would reduce draft causing all of your problems.




Parallax said:


> How does one check the OAK for clogging? Just remove and inspect?


Yes and run a flexible rod through it we use dryer vent rods and brushes


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> How does one check the OAK for clogging? Just remove and inspect?
> 
> Also, could a stack in need of cleaning cause the smoke?



Not unless it was so plugged as to affect draft. Damp wood would be a more likely culprit.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> How does one check the OAK for clogging? Just remove and inspect?
> 
> Also, could a stack in need of cleaning cause the smoke?


a clogged cat can certainly cause smoke out the chimney.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

begreen said:


> Not unless it was so plugged as to affect draft. Damp wood would be a more likely culprit.


yeah but damp wood would not cause smoke in the house if there was adequate draft.  The smoke out the top yes i agree with you completely


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2015)

That's all I was referring to.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

begreen said:


> That's all I was referring to.


ok sorry i was referring to the original problem


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

At this point I'm not burning damp wood. The pressed logs are super dry.


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2015)

How many pressed logs at once are being loaded?


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## Ram 1500 with an axe... (Feb 3, 2015)

Do those pressed logs make your glass that dirty? How long did it take for the glass to get that black? I don't have an opinion of what's going on here but that glass condition is a big red flag......


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## maple1 (Feb 3, 2015)

That looks like a real tough spot to get a good draft, with all those high trees so close.

I would definitely get the chimney cleaned, and the cat checked out as mentioned above (never used one, but if someone said they can plug up, I would for sure check it), and the draft checked with a manometer. Need to rule out the basics first. I would also get my own manometer so you can check it yourself whenever you want (or permanently mounted if that wouldn't be an objectionable look) - info a page or two back.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

begreen said:


> How many pressed logs at once are being loaded?


Probably about ten at a time. They're small. The stove could hold a lot more.


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## Poindexter (Feb 3, 2015)

I am going out on a bit of a limb, but another symptom of your underlying problem is all that crud on the glass after an overnight burn on "2" out of three.  I can't get that much smudging running 24 hours on 1/3.    It isn't the problem, but another indicator that inadequate draft is at the root of your problem.

Those tall trees aren't helping, the one closest to the house is probably good for a full cord, just saying.

I would be tempted to disconnect the OAK next, but that is really up to your local dealer.


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## rdust (Feb 3, 2015)

maple1 said:


> That looks like a real tough spot to get a good draft, with all those high trees so close.



x2, looks like they'd make some nice firewood.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

Would a vacu-stack (at around $100) address a draft problem adequately? Or does one need an electrical motor up there, artificially inducing a draft effect? I hear the latter exists but gets quite expensive.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

rdust said:


> x2, looks like they'd make some nice firewood.


I'd be a dead man. When we were in our last house, a neighbor cut down a single tree and my wife cried.


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## ailanthus (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I'd be a dead man. When we were in our last house, a neighbor cut down a single tree and my wife cried.


You'd better put some foil over your stove glass - wouldn't want her to see what's happening in there and have a breakdown


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## Poindexter (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Another clue (or maybe not). When I open the t-stat all the way, there's more air available for the fire than when it's turned down. But when I leave the door of the stove open just a crack, there's way, way more air for the fire (and it's not even close). When the stove was brand new, I'm not sure there was as much of a difference. Was still, of course, more air when the door was open. But maybe not to this extent. I've been wondering if the OAK could be clogged.



Nope, this is normal, scads and stacks more air avaialble with the loading door cracked than with the Tstat on wide open.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Would a vacu-stack (at around $100) address a draft problem adequately? Or does one need an electrical motor up there, artificially inducing a draft effect? I hear the latter exists but gets quite expensive.


It might but you need to get a pro out there to figure out what is going on first A vacu-stack might do nothing at all it depends what is going on.  And i would stay away from fans they are very expensive loud and take allot of maintenance.


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## rdust (Feb 3, 2015)

<gulp>If it turns out to be a draft issue due to the tree's and "lay of the land" a non cat stove which is less sensitive to draft may work better.  PE and Jotul make some nice cast stoves.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

rdust said:


> <gulp>If it turns out to be a draft issue due to the tree's and "lay of the land" a non cat stove which is less sensitive to draft may work better. PE and Jotul make some nice cast stoves.


I agree but i dont think we are at that point yet


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## NHcpa (Feb 3, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> The first of the three pages of posts in the thread I closed last night. Just what would anybody suggest other than the title it had for this? Nothing about a stove problem.
> 
> "My wife and I are new to wood burning. We have an infant. He was born last summer and this is our first winter with the stove. We've done our best to shield him from smoke, but the stove has produced some smoke in the house. Many of the articles I've read online indicate the burning wood is more dangerous than smoking cigarettes, that 70% of the pollution that's vented outside the home gets back in, and that there are many long-term risks (such as cancer) to which young children are most vulnerable.
> 
> I'm wondering what the experts around here think. Clearly, people have been burning wood for millennia. But then again, the average lifespan until quite recently was probably around 40."


It's true this website is a great resource for technical and other questions relative to fire burning appliances. I also believe this website to be a social network of sorts in that, you have an audience with a mutual interest and conversations can meander a bit from the original posted content. In respect to getting technical info, I also very much like this site for its social appeal. I now check daily Hearth.com like I do FB and text my away from home kids.  There are personalities on this site (BB, Bholler, Begreen) that although I do not have a tech question in mind, I do enjoy the narrative content of the posters. As I recall, this thread was closed when the discussion got to Daniel Boone...  OK, so what...?


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

I have to ask you do have carbon monoxide detectors dont you?  If not go get them that is way more dangerous than some smoke leakage


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## BrotherBart (Feb 3, 2015)

NHcpa said:


> There are personalities on this site (BB, Bholler, Begreen) that although I do not have a tech question in mind, I do enjoy the narrative content of the posters. As I recall, this thread was closed when the discussion got to Daniel Boone... OK, so what...?



Exactly why we created The Inglenook years ago. A place to sit around the fire and talk about general things. Or things that apply to wood burning not matter what the wood burning appliance. Without clogging up the forum rooms where many people, members and lurkers alike, look for answers specific issues that can be resolved.


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## NHcpa (Feb 3, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> Exactly why we created The Inglenook years ago. A place to sit around the fire and talk about general things. Or things that apply to wood burning not matter what the wood burning appliance. Without clogging up the forum rooms where many people, members and lurkers alike, look for answers specific issues that can be resolved.


You missed your calling, you should have been an auditor. Still like ya.


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Probably about ten at a time. They're small. The stove could hold a lot more.


That could be an issue. IIRC Highbeam had excess smoke by loading a lot more logs than recommended. Perhaps they are outgassing rapidly and overwhelming the cat?


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## Poindexter (Feb 3, 2015)

Any guess on the length of your OAK?

I had some pork out on the smoker this afternoon.  That got me to thinking about when I used to live in North Carolina.  That somehow got me thinking about my favorite scuba dive on the Carolina coast, which happens to be U-352 in about 100 feet of water maybe 50 miles off shore.  That got me thinking about how the Germans ran snorkels on some of the Uboats so they could submerge the conning tower but still see with the periscope, while sucking fresh air through the snorkel so they could run diesel instead of on batteries.

Then I looked up and noticed the smoke plume of my "that guy" neighbor, and that got me to wondering about how long your OAK piping is.  It looks to me like you got good diameter, but if it is long enough you are going to have laminar flow in that OAK tubing, and friction - and your stove is going to have to do 'some' work to get fresh air...


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

So much information to sort out. Just heard from BKVP. He was talking about having the stove transported to Walla Walla for inspection. I'd hate to do all that and then discover the problem was with stove pipe, OAK or just my inexperience running the stove. What a mess!


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

Poindexter said:


> Any guess on the length of your OAK?
> 
> I had some pork out on the smoker this afternoon.  That got me to thinking about when I used to live in North Carolina.  That somehow got me thinking about my favorite scuba dive on the Carolina coast, which happens to be U-352 in about 100 feet of water maybe 50 miles off shore.  That got me thinking about how the Germans ran snorkels on some of the Uboats so they could submerge the conning tower but still see with the periscope, while sucking fresh air through the snorkel so they could run diesel instead of on batteries.
> 
> Then I looked up and noticed the smoke plume of my "that guy" neighbor, and that got me to wondering about how long your OAK piping is.  It looks to me like you got good diameter, but if it is long enough you are going to have laminar flow in that OAK tubing, and friction - and your stove is going to have to do 'some' work to get fresh air...


I can measure it tonight. Having seen photos on this site of pipes running several feet, I didn't think the few inches from my stove to the wall would create much of a problem. But I'm willing to explore all possibilities.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

ailanthus said:


> You'd better put some foil over your stove glass - wouldn't want her to see what's happening in there and have a breakdown


She's alright with burning wood (and eating meat) as long as she doesn't have to witness the necessary murder.


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2015)

I feel for you. This is where a first rate dealer is worth his or her weight in gold. In lieu of that it's great to have BK checking it out.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 3, 2015)

Do you by any chance have a spark arrestor screen in the chimney cap?


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

Good question. I do not. We've got a lot of trees here but it's also generally pretty wet in the burn season.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

begreen said:


> I feel for you. This is where a first rate dealer is worth his or her weight in gold. In lieu of that it's great to have BK checking it out.



Chris is going to work with the dealer. Hopefully the dealer will give it the necessary time and energy and be truly open to whatever the problem is. I really hope it's not a lack of draft given that he's already raised the stack four feet. Ideally it would be the stove and then Blaze King could just give me a new one and the problem would be fixed. 

I'm paying attention now to some of the issues raised here. This morning, there was no smoke coming off the stove. The weather was overcast but there was no rain. There was no wind outside either. The stove had pretty well wound down. Going home now and will check it again.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 3, 2015)

OK, just checking. I had a stove in the past that would puff back and smoke out the door when the screen was plugged. Of course even with the screen removed it would do the same thing when the chimney just needed to be cleaned. I had real wet wood at the time...


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## Isaiah53 (Feb 3, 2015)

Parallax,

Your observation that the fire gets much more air when you crack open a door would suggest to me that the restriction is in the inlet air system rather than the flue.  I would think if your flue was restricted, you would get a lot of smoke spillage anytime you opened the door.  I was trying to suggest that you remove the cover over the damper again and confirm that the damper can still be fully opened with the t-stat.  If the set screws have become loose, it may not be open much at all.  Although there may be other potential restrictions in the air path, I would start by having a look at the damper again. 

On the other hand the interior smoke smell would suggest a lack of draft (higher pressure in the firebox) and a restriction in the flue system.  I would think you could easily test if the catalyst is plugged by opening and closing the by-pass and seeing if you get a lot more air flow.  

I would not worry about your trees nearby.  They can certainly tend to trap the smoke in your yard and make situation seem worse, but I cannot imagine any way they could offer enough flow restriction to the stack flow to reduce the draft and the air flow to the stove to any extent.


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## Poindexter (Feb 3, 2015)

Ahhh, I see now that is a window behind your stove back on page three.

Your outside grille is intact it looked like, so probably not the problem, but fairly easy to isolate a variable. You need a special bit to get the thermostat cover off.  Its about the size of a Torx-10 or T15, only it needs to have a hole in the center of the bit, a star drive bit I think...he other special bit is a square drive, I forget the size,.


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

Why am I taking the thermostat cover off?


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## Parallax (Feb 3, 2015)

Today, I got a message this morning from one of the Blaze King guys in Canada. Couldn't reach him but his message was, essentially, "Don't worry. We'll take care of you." 

Gotta love a company that stands behind its products and its customers. Later in the day, I got a message from Chris (BKVP). He's out of the country but we were e-mailing. He spoke of possibly having the stove shipped to Walla Walla so they could test it. Then the dealer called. We agreed we need to test everything regarding the install and any mistakes I may be making before shipping the stove back because it seems to both of us very unlikely that the stove itself is at fault. On Friday morning, he's coming out to put my fan kit back on (the blades on the old one had partly melted -- an actual defect in the stove, or at least an accessory). While he's out here, he's going to disconnect the OAK. I'll run it with a window cracked, both before and after he detaches the OAK. We're looking for ways in which air pressure may be influencing things. 

I spoke to him about measuring draft. He said it would require putting a hole in the stove pipe. I wouldn't mind if that could be the same hole for a flue probe. But he was lukewarm about adding an extra hole when our issue is gas leaking out somewhere. We'll cross that bridge if the OAK investigation doesn't lead to an answer.


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## bholler (Feb 3, 2015)

Honestly i think you need to get a pro out there we can keep giving you ideas but nothing will be figured out till a set of experienced eyes gets to see it.  Good you posted that as i was writing mine


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## branchburner (Feb 3, 2015)

begreen said:


> That could be an issue. IIRC Highbeam had excess smoke by loading a lot more logs than recommended. Perhaps they are outgassing rapidly and overwhelming the cat?



That would also help explain the backpuffing, too... when I was burning some small and very dry wood (pallets, etc.) the excess outgassing would result in backpuffs when I shut the air too far/too fast.


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## begreen (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Today, I got a message this morning from one of the Blaze King guys in Canada. Couldn't reach him but his message was, essentially, "Don't worry. We'll take care of you."
> 
> Gotta love a company that stands behind its products and its customers. Later in the day, I got a message from Chris (BKVP). He's out of the country but we were e-mailing. He spoke of possibly having the stove shipped to Walla Walla so they could test it. Then the dealer called. We agreed we need to test everything regarding the install and any mistakes I may be making before shipping the stove back because it seems to both of us very unlikely that the stove itself is at fault. On Friday morning, he's coming out to put my fan kit back on (the blades on the old one had partly melted -- an actual defect in the stove, or at least an accessory). While he's out here, he's going to disconnect the OAK. I'll run it with a window cracked, both before and after he detaches the OAK. We're looking for ways in which air pressure may be influencing things.
> 
> I spoke to him about measuring draft. He said it would require putting a hole in the stove pipe. I wouldn't mind if that could be the same hole for a flue probe. But he was lukewarm about adding an extra hole when our issue is gas leaking out somewhere. We'll cross that bridge if the OAK investigation doesn't lead to an answer.


Good to hear there is progress. Ask too about the quantity of pressed logs being burned. These logs outgas rapidly when hot. I'm wondering if too many are overwhelming the cat. As far as the hole in the pipe for draft testing, a probe thermometer can fill it or worst case scenario a black screw.


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## Poindexter (Feb 4, 2015)

As short as your OAK is you would need to have a dead rabbit in it to have this much trouble, but the outer grille is intact.

How many cords did you burn at what moisture content so far?


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## Poindexter (Feb 4, 2015)

I would let the dealer make the decision about the thermostat cover.  

With no OAK on mine this am I was able, with the stove pretty cold, to shine a flashlight up the air intake and then use a hand mirror I borrowed from my wife to see up in there.  I have been hypothesizing I might have a wad of cat hair up in my intake this week, but the stove settled back down yesterday and I see no evidence of any cat hair at all in the intake this morning.

With the OAK off and a painless inspection of your air intake all that is left to trouble shoot is the stove box and the flue.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

What could be wrong with the stove box itself? 

Interestingly, last night we were getting far less smoke. I don't understand why it can be better at times and worse at others.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

begreen said:


> Good to hear there is progress. Ask too about the quantity of pressed logs being burned. These logs outgas rapidly when hot. I'm wondering if too many are overwhelming the cat. As far as the hole in the pipe for draft testing, a probe thermometer can fill it or worst case scenario a black screw.


Unfortunately my stove guy wouldn't know. He's a good fella, really stands behind his work. But it's a heating and cooling company; they deal with much more than wood stoves and he doesn't personally burn. I'm still glad I went with him. But it is a challenge figuring out problems like this.


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## branchburner (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I don't understand why it can be better at times and worse at others.



This could be due to the size, rate and stage of the burn as it relates both to your operation (adjusting air supply) and to your flue system (poor draft and/or partly obstructed), not to mention weather conditions. Lots of variables interacting means variable outcomes with each burn.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

branchburner said:


> This could be due to the size, rate and stage of the burn as it relates both to your operation (adjusting air supply) and to your flue system (poor draft and/or partly obstructed), not to mention weather conditions. Lots of variables interacting means variable outcomes with each burn.


Makes it hard to find the problem. We'll see how things go on Friday after the OAK is disconnected. Does the stove need to be cold for this to happen? I'd love to watch the effect on the fire when it comes off (if possible).


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

I haven't been keeping up with this entire thread, I have a few thoughts:
My glass is never that dirty, ever. 
I also was having some issues with the cat stalling. It would almost go out if I went under 2 with the air control. I moved the Ashford to my 8" flue in my front room, since the move it has acted like a different stove. It runs like its intended to now that it has better draft. Both flues are the same height and straight up, no elbows. The only difference is the 8" flue. 

You are suffering from poor draft.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I haven't been keeping up with this entire thread, I have a few thoughts:
> My glass is never that dirty, ever.
> I also was having some issues with the cat stalling. It would almost go out if I went under 2 with the air control. I moved the Ashford to my 8" flue in my front room, since the move it has acted like a different stove. It runs like its intended to now that it has better draft. Both flues are the same height and straight up, no elbows. The only difference is the 8" flue.
> 
> You are suffering from poor draft.



Webby, since going to an 8" flue isn't an option (unless I'm going to spend a heck of a lot to replace what was just installed last spring), what are some ways of dealing with inadequate draft? Does the vacu-stack work? Looks like they're only around $100 bucks. My preference would be to avoid anything electric.


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Webby, since going to an 8" flue isn't an option (unless I'm going to spend a heck of a lot to replace what was just installed last spring), what are some ways of dealing with inadequate draft? Does the vacu-stack work? Looks like they're only around $100 bucks. My preference would be to avoid anything electric.


A vacu-stack will work if down drafts are your problem, it won't help with negative pressure issues so much. I have also found that they clog very easily with a BK, it would be a last resort in my opinion. I'm Not recommending an 8" flue either, it's just odd that it worked for me. Maybe it has something to do with your location and climate? I can see my stoves struggle when a low pressure system rolls in, it's uncommon here, but not for your area I'm guessing?


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> A vacu-stack will work if down drafts are your problem, it won't help with negative pressure issues so much. I have also found that they clog very easily with a BK, it would be a last resort in my opinion. I'm Not recommending an 8" flue either, it's just odd that it worked for me. Maybe it has something to do with your location and climate? I can see my stoves struggle when a low pressure system rolls in, it's uncommon here, but not for your area I'm guessing?


So no suggestions?


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> So no suggestions?


Test the draft. Once won't do it though, you said its intermittent.


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## alforit (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> So no suggestions?




I am in the same climate area as you ........So maybe I can help .......Can you post a pick of your door ?  inside so we can see the gasket.

Also , have you done any sealing on your stove pipe at all at the joints ?


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

Can post a photo tonight, Alforit. I've not sealed the joints. The dealer said doing so would create a toxic smell, something my wife would not be happy about. 

Webby, any ideas on how to correct a drafting problem. If the stack is as high as it can go, what else can be done?


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## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

Yes sealing the joints is not the solution at all


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Can post a photo tonight, Alforit. I've not sealed the joints. The dealer said doing so would create a toxic smell, something my wife would not be happy about.
> 
> Webby, any ideas on how to correct a drafting problem. If the stack is as high as it can go, what else can be done?


We are all guessing without getting our hands on it. I'm over 2,000 miles away unfortunately. Sealing up pipe joints is not an answer at all, only a band-aid to cover up a problem.

The thing is, your flue is plenty tall and you have an OAK. It should work just fine. It's hard to say, a draft test would be the best place to start.

Is that a Selkirk stovetop adaptor, or is that a jimmy rigged starter piece? Why are their no screws in the joint?


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## alforit (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Can post a photo tonight, Alforit. I've not sealed the joints. The dealer said doing so would create a toxic smell, something my wife would not be happy about.
> 
> Webby, any ideas on how to correct a drafting problem. If the stack is as high as it can go, what else can be done?




You can build the stack as high as you want , but its only as strong as its weakest link.

If your suckin air at the bottom it wont make much difference on top.
Your tree line is affecting your draft somewhat.....looks good though with the high stack next to it 

The stove pipe chain tends to be the culprit because it doesn't really seal well in an air tight way.... Especially where it terminates into the flu of the stove , that's a weak spot .Chimney pipe tends to be different because it has the insulation and creates a better seal generally by twist lock or other.

Stove cement is good but it tends to crack from expansion ......but its better than nothing..
There is a pipe sealant that is available that is flexible and wont crack and doesn't smell at far as I can tell.  But if it did it would be temporary and also the much lesser of the two evils . (smoke in the house)

I found that by sealing the stove pipe from the stove flu to the ceiling adapter , that as a consequence  it removed the smoke smell . ( Especially because of the warm temps in our area combined with all the forest area and the low burn of the BK , It really affects the draft .)  It improved the draft and burn times and combustion quality of the wood .


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> Is that a Selkirk stovetop adaptor, or is that a jimmy rigged starter piece? Why are their no screws in the joint?



I don't know whether it's an adaptor or a jimmy rigged piece. The stove pipe was a bit short and we were thinking maybe the lack of overlap was why we were getting the leakage. Adding the collar (that's what I call it) didn't seem to accomplish much. It is ugly without screws in the joint. The dealer said the space between the outer wall and the inner wall is so small it would be hard to find screws that wouldn't penetrate both, and possibly introduce more smoke leakage.

Would love love love to replace that thing with something better looking. Any thoughts?


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

alforit said:


> You can build the stack as high as you want , but its only as strong as its weakest link.
> 
> If your suckin air at the bottom it wont make much difference on top.
> Your tree line effecting your draft somewhat.....looks good though with the high stack next to it
> ...



This seems at odds with what others are saying about it being a band-aid solution.


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## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

alforit said:


> Stove pipe tends to be the culprit because it doesn't really seal well in an air tight way.... Chimney pipe tends to be different because it has the insulation and creates a better seal generally by twist lock or other.
> Stove cement is good but it tends to crack from expansion ......but its better than nothing..
> There is a pipe sealant that is available that is flexible and wont crack and doesn't smell at far as I can tell. But if it did it would be temporary and also the much lesser of the two evils . (smoke in the house)
> I have found that by sealing the stove pipe that as a consequence , it removed the smoke smell that can happen sometimes on a low burn with a BK. It improved the draft and burn times and combustion of the wood quality.


That would only be an issue if the pipe was very poorly fitting which is not the case here He has good quality double wall pipe that looks like it is installed well I may be wrong on this according to webby 3650.  I have never sealed a single stove pipe for a wood stove it is not necessary at all


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## alforit (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> This seems at odds with what others are saying about it being a band-aid solution.




It worked for me. And I had tried many different things

I found out about sealing the stove pipe from a dealer in Tennessee ,by accident,  I had tried it a couple years ago on my non-cat stove and was surprised the difference it made in my burn and draft.....

But was a pain in the butt when I had to remove the stove pipe pieces to clean ......Had to whack with a rubber mallet to break the seal.....Ugh

Fast forward .........After I got BK I had forgotten about sealing and then found out about the flexible sealant and that it was easy to break the seal and remove for pipe cleaning and then re-apply.
So I used it to improve the burn times and as a consequence it removed the smoke smell.........Go figure.


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I don't know whether it's an adaptor or a jimmy rigged piece. The stove pipe was a bit short and we were thinking maybe the lack of overlap was why we were getting the leakage. Adding the collar (that's what I call it) didn't seem to accomplish much. It is ugly without screws in the joint. The dealer said the space between the outer wall and the inner wall is so small it would be hard to find screws that wouldn't penetrate both, and possibly introduce more smoke leakage.
> 
> Would love love love to replace that thing with something better looking. Any thoughts?


I would personally not have that pipe in my house...
It's entry level pipe, fits very poorly and looks bad. I would switch it out with Dura-vent DVL.

The joints should all have 3 screws. 1/2" screws are what's supplied with the pipe, and only penetrate the outer wall, no smoke there to leak!
Typically little things like incorrect adaptors, missing screws etc. will point to other issues with the install. Can I see a picture of the whole connector pipe run? Including the ceiling box adaptor. Do you have any elbows on the chimney itself?


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## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I would personally not have that pipe in my house...
> It's entry level pipe, fits very poorly and looks bad


Is it really that bad?  I don't know i am asking seriously.


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

Yes! It's the poorest pipe I've ever used. Never again. And it looks hideous! I prefer the tight joints and clean lines from dura-vent.


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## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

I have never used it but now i know not to.  We use ventis stuff and are happy with it


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## brenndatomu (Feb 4, 2015)

If the trees are causing draft issues maybe this Artis directional cap would help? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...e8geAJ&usg=AFQjCNGWGm-XfIUqOufM5XrE0p_cvkqhwQ


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I would personally not have that pipe in my house...
> It's entry level pipe, fits very poorly and looks bad. I would switch it out with Dura-vent DVL.
> 
> The joints should all have 3 screws. 1/2" screws are what's supplied with the pipe, and only penetrate the outer wall, no smoke there to leak!
> Typically little things like incorrect adaptors, missing screws etc. will point to other issues with the install. Can I see a picture of the whole connector pipe run? Including the ceiling box adaptor. Do you have any elbows on the chimney itself?



There are no elbows. It's a straight shot straight up. Will post photos of the run tonight. Are you just talking about from the stove to the box or the part outside the house too? I'm not sure I can get closeups of the chimney.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> If the trees are causing draft issues maybe this Artis directional cap would help? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEwQFjAH&url=http://store.yukon-eagle.com/6-artis-wind-directional-cap/&ei=ErbSVLf9EsHPaKe8geAJ&usg=AFQjCNGWGm-XfIUqOufM5XrE0p_cvkqhwQ



Interesting. Ugly but, looking at it, I can envision exactly how it might work. Do you have experience with its usage in practice?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 4, 2015)

Not personally. Yeah, it is ugly like a mud fence, huh?! Maybe you could paint it sky blue and it would just disappear into the sky...


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## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Interesting. Ugly but, looking at it, I can envision exactly how it might work. Do you have experience with its usage in practice?


I have worked on 2 like that one but not that one exactly they seemed to work until they got gunked up and didn't spin any more.  Then it would be possible that it would acctually direct the wind down the chimney.  But i do know some are better as far as that goes but some research would be necessary t figure out which ones work best


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> There are no elbows. It's a straight shot straight up. Will post photos of the run tonight. Are you just talking about from the stove to the box or the part outside the house too? I'm not sure I can get closeups of the chimney.


Is like to see the stove pipe, from the stove to the box. Especially the stove pipe adaptor.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Interesting. Ugly but, looking at it, I can envision exactly how it might work. Do you have experience with its usage in practice?



Here is one that a person on the other site raved about. He said it improved the performance of his stove dramatically.  He lives on the shoreline of a windy bay.  I have no personal experience with it. 


*StormShield Model STS*


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## brenndatomu (Feb 4, 2015)

bholler said:


> they seemed to work until they got gunked up and didn't spin any more.


That would be my only concern with it. It would be OK if you were burning hot n clean, but in that scenario draft problems probably are not very likely...unless maybe it was just a cold start thing


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## rdust (Feb 4, 2015)

bholler said:


> I have never sealed a single stove pipe for a wood stove it is not necessary at all



I used furnace cement on my DVL appliance adapter.  The collar on my BK stove was a mess, not round with welds screwing up the fit.  After grinding the welds down it seemed to improve the fit but still far from perfect.


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## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

rdust said:


> I used furnace cement on my DVL appliance adapter. The collar on my BK stove was a mess, not round with welds screwing up the fit. After grinding the welds down it seemed to improve the fit but still far from perfect.


Yes i have used it at the stove collar but never on the pipe itself.   But yeah i have had poorly fitting collars before that needed sealed


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## alforit (Feb 4, 2015)

rdust said:


> I used furnace cement on my DVL appliance adapter.  The collar on my BK stove was a mess, not round with welds screwing up the fit.  After grinding the welds down it seemed to improve the fit but still far from perfect.



Of all the stove pipe pieces , I think that is the weakest link in chain for air leakage . Because of the waffled termination into the flu.


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

alforit said:


> Of all the stove pipe pieces , I think that is the weakest link in chain for air leakage . Because of the waffled termination into the flu.


Waffled? Do you mean crimped?


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## alforit (Feb 4, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> Waffled? Do you mean crimped?




sorry, yes


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## bholler (Feb 4, 2015)

With good pipe and a good stove collar it should not be a problem.


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## webby3650 (Feb 4, 2015)

bholler said:


> With good pipe and a good stove collar it should not be a problem.


Agreed. But we have ways around it even with a sloppy flue collar.


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## blacktail (Feb 4, 2015)

I didn't read the whole threadthread, I don't have a cat stove, and I'm not a pro. But our weather recently, and for much of the winter, has been the kind that makes for crappy drafting. My stove wants to puff smoke when I open the door now. My dad (who lives just a few miles away) was recently complaining about the same thing. Both of us have done a mid season chimney cleaning recently too. This damp, 50 degree weather makes stoves extra temperamental.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

Tenn Dave said:


> Here is one that a person on the other site raved about. He said it improved the performance of his stove dramatically.  He lives on the shoreline of a windy bay.  I have no personal experience with it.
> 
> 
> *StormShield Model STS*


That's not bad looking. A bit like an air filter cover on a carbureted 66 Impala but interesting and it doesn't seem to be subject to the kinds of problems one might have with one that spins. Would love to know more about how well it works. Will research it.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> That's not bad looking. A bit like an air filter cover on a carbureted 66 Impala but interesting and it doesn't seem to be subject to the kinds of problems one might have with one that spins. Would love to know more about how well it works. Will research it.


Was just looking at it online. Seems to be to protect from wind and rain. Not sure that it would increase draft. Does anyone know. Looks like a variation on the vacu stack.


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## branchburner (Feb 4, 2015)

blacktail said:


> our weather recently, and for much of the winter, has been the kind that makes for crappy drafting. This damp, 50 degree weather makes stoves extra temperamental.



So combine that fact with the fact that the OP had previously been burning green wood, and has not fine-tuned his technique for clean burning with a new stove. I suspect he ALSO needs a mid-season flue cleaning, perhaps in a big way!

Here is a suggestion, Parallax: since you say your dealer is not really a wood-heat expert, it might make sense to seek out a highly experienced chimney sweep. He could not only inspect and clean your flue, he could inspect the entire system and throw in his two cents as to what HE thinks the root problem(s) might be, and how best to proceed. Maybe you can get lucky and find a local sweep who has experience servicing BK cat stoves!


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## branchburner (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Not sure that it would increase draft. Does anyone know. Looks like a variation on the vacu stack.



Before you seek out devices to increase draft, I really think you need to measure the draft, and ideally get an expert opinion on WHY you are seemingly suffering poor draft.

If you do get a sweep to clean the flue, he could probably also measure the draft while evaluating all the variables in your setup.


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## Parallax (Feb 4, 2015)

Not a bad idea. I know a good chimney sweep. Had considered having him install the stove. Didn't because he wasn't a BK dealer. My dealer recently saw the inside of the stove pipe when he added a four foot section. He said it looks pretty clean. But I could definitely bring him in to get another opinion. Will give him a call.


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## Poindexter (Feb 4, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Will give him a call.



I think that's a good idea.


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## blacktail (Feb 4, 2015)

Isn't there a very well known stove and hearth shop in Bellingham?


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## BrotherBart (Feb 4, 2015)

When I was there, there was a well known toilet paper plant.


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## begreen (Feb 4, 2015)

Both are still there.


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## Parallax (Feb 5, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> Is like to see the stove pipe, from the stove to the box. Especially the stove pipe adaptor.


Webby, here are some photos. First is of the whole run from stove to ceiling. Then of the collar, the connection between the top and bottom sections and then the plate at the ceiling. Let me know if this is what you were looking for. (Sorry they're rotated; I'm obviously incompetent with a phone camera.) [By the way, the splotchy paint is my fault; touched up with the wrong tone of black stovebright. Will fix next summer.]


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## webby3650 (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm highly suspect of that stovetop adaptor, or whatever has been used there. Something just looks funky about it.


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## alforit (Feb 5, 2015)

rdust said:


> I used furnace cement on my DVL appliance adapter.  The collar on my BK stove was a mess, not round with welds screwing up the fit.  After grinding the welds down it seemed to improve the fit but still far from perfect.



I used a flexible stove vent sealant on my stove pipe adapter . its nice cause it wont crack from contracting and expanding and its good up to 1100 F  and continuous at 900 F


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## Parallax (Feb 5, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I'm highly suspect of that stovetop adaptor, or whatever has been used there. Something just looks funky about it.


Would you have a link to one you would recommend? I looked up the one you mentioned earlier but it appeared to be an adaptor to go into the box on the ceiling.


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## webby3650 (Feb 5, 2015)

You need to use the one that's made for your pipe. You could have the correct one? It just looks odd, why is it a different color? Also, are your fans off when you notice the smoke smell?


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## Parallax (Feb 5, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> You need to use the one that's made for your pipe. You could have the correct one? It just looks odd, why is it a different color? Also, are your fans off when you notice the smoke smell?


Yes, fans are off. It gets worse when the fans are on. Blows the smoke into the room.


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## webby3650 (Feb 5, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Yes, fans are off. It gets worse when the fans are on. Blows the smoke into the room.


If the top is off, does it look like that adaptor is seated good on the flue collar? Is the adaptor double wall like the rest of the pipe? It should have a label one it.


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## Parallax (Feb 5, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> If the top is off, does it look like that adaptor is seated good on the flue collar? Is the adaptor double wall like the rest of the pipe? It should have a label one it.


Will find out.


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> If the top is off, does it look like that adaptor is seated good on the flue collar? Is the adaptor double wall like the rest of the pipe? It should have a label one it.


The dealer's guy is out here now. He says the adaptor is seated good, that it is double wall and he showed me the label. Says the pipe is Selkirk and so is the adaptor. Says nothing can be done about the screw holes because they're not in the adaptor but the pipe that sits on top. There's no section of pipe specifically designed to mate to the adaptor without the screw holes and he says there are no screws short enough to go in without piercing the inner stainless liner and creating more holes for smoke to escape. 

How does this all sound to you, Webby?


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## branchburner (Feb 6, 2015)

Parallax said:


> The dealer's guy is out here now.



Has inspected both the flue and OAK for blockage? Can he measure the draft?


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

branchburner said:


> Has inspected both the flue and OAK for blockage? Can he measure the draft?


The OAK wasn't blocked but the stove does appear to be running better without it. This is all very preliminary. Still checking it out and will have to do so under different atmospheric conditions. But it's running well at a lower t-stat setting with less smoke coming out the chimney. Trying to throttle it down so there's no fire in the box and see if it runs smoke free. Will have to see if it helps with the smoke in the house. For that, I'll need my wife's nose and maybe a week or two. 

This was the next step. If it doesn't help or doesn't help enough, I'll ask him to measure the draft. Will have to order a flue probe to give us a reason to put a hole in the stove pipe.


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## maple1 (Feb 6, 2015)

Stop waiting & putting off measuring the draft - just do it. Under all fire conditions, and ideally under varying outside conditions. Without doing that, it is like grasping at straws. Or chasing your tail. Or chasing straws while grasping your tail. Or something like that.

Something else to try while you're doing what you're doing now, is crack a window on the side of the house opposite to the OAK intake.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

Today is a tough day to test. It's 55F outside here under low pressure. If it works better in these conditions that is an encouraging sign. We haven't run our stove for a couple days now, but I wouldn't be surprised if we got a little smoke spillage before the flue warmed up. These are not great burning conditions. 

My guess is that disconnecting the oak is likely helping the stove breathe a bit easier by not having to pull the air through more pipe.


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

Yes, it definitely seems to be helping. It's been less than an hour but already I can see that it's running with the t-stat way down from where it would run before. Used to crash below 2. Now at 2, there's a lot of fire in the box. At 1 1/2 there was still fire in the box. Now I've got it down to 1 and there are still flickers of flame. So way more air flow. 

Hard to tell about smoke from the stack because there's so much wind. When the fire goes out completely, I'll see if I can detect any. Right now I can see some but it gets whisked away very fast.


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## maple1 (Feb 6, 2015)

So much wind? That might be why you're seeing an improved burn right now - things might deteriorate again when the wind goes down. Then you're back at not enough chimney draft. I still think the trees that are surrounding you are hurting things too.


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

Until now the wind has not been my friend. And getting a burn at 1 was impossible. So I think it's safe to say there's improvement. Whether all problems are solved remains to be seen.

Now there's no fire in the box but still a bit of smoke. It's worth noting that both the dealer and BK say I may be overloading the cat by using all pressed logs. I'll mix in some splits to see how that effects things.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

Sounds good, I thought it would be worth trying disconnecting the OAK. These are lousy burning conditions.Cooler weather should be even better. 

On a side note, it's amazing how weather varies locally here. Bellingham weather stations are reporting 58F and gusty. Your winds must be coming up the straits. We are dead calm here.


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## Poindexter (Feb 6, 2015)

Has the sweep come and gone already?


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> Sounds good, I thought it would be worth trying disconnecting the OAK. These are lousy burning conditions.Cooler weather should be even better.
> 
> On a side note, it's amazing how weather varies locally here. Bellingham weather stations are reporting 58F and gusty. Your winds must be coming up the straits. We are dead calm here.


Bellingham has different sub-climates. Those in the Fraser River Valley get enormous wind. Not so much where I am, nestled up against the hills around Lake Whatcom. But it's still way winder than normal. 

Last night I was out on Fir Island and the winds were fierce! So it's not just Bellingham.


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

Poindexter said:


> Has the sweep come and gone already?


No, the dealer said the chimney pipe looked very good when he was installing the new 4 foot section. So I decided to wait on having it cleaned.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

It sounds like the OAK is on the leeward side of the house and in a negative pressure zone. This is fighting draft.

Yes, our topography dramatically affects local conditions. When I checked weather stations in your area Bellingham was about 8 mph and Bow was at 25 mph, steady.


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> It sounds like the OAK is on the leeward side of the house and in a negative pressure zone. This is fighting draft.
> 
> Yes, our topography dramatically affects local conditions. When I checked weather stations in your area Bellingham was about 8 mph and Bow was at 25 mph, steady.


Big improvement on air flow to the box but we're still getting plenty of smoke out the chimney and I can still smell some coming off the top of the firebox. Too bad.

How would you suggest addressing the fact that code requires an OAK? I don't want problems with my insurance company should we have a house fire?


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

Did the cat get checked for plugging? What is the cat temp showing? Well into the active zone?


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> Did the cat get checked for plugging? What is the cat temp showing? Well into the active zone?


Yes. This blows my mind. With the t-stat set at 1, the cat temp is sitting at 12 o'clock high or even a bit further to the right. In the past, at 1 it would have crashed.

Have not recently checked the cat. Did it a couple of months back with Chris (BKVP) directing me through the process. Right now the stove's hot.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

Wonder why you are seeing so much smoke then? This stove is supposed to be a clean burner. What is the fuel load today?


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## maple1 (Feb 6, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Big improvement on air flow to the box but we're still getting plenty of smoke out the chimney and I can still smell some coming off the top of the firebox. Too bad.


 
Again - have you tried cracking a window on the side of the house the wind is blowing against to see what happens?

(A window closest to the stove).


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> Wonder why you are seeing so much smoke then? This stove is supposed to be a clean burner. What is the fuel load today?


Still running the compressed logs. Figured I'd change one variable at a time.


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

maple1 said:


> Again - have you tried cracking a window on the side of the house the wind is blowing against to see what happens?
> 
> (A window closest to the stove).


Will try that now.

Edit: Before opening the window, I glanced at the stack to get a "before/after" sense of the impact. At this moment, there appears to be no smoke. Will try it next time I see smoke. T-stat's still at 1 and probe still at 12 o'clock high so the burn seems to have settled in nicely.


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Still running the compressed logs. Figured I'd change one variable at a time.


How many at once?


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> How many at once?


Hard to say since some have burned down quite a ways and others were added an hour and a half ago. Pretty good load of them. Maybe too much for any cat to handle.


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Will try that now.
> 
> Edit: Before opening the window, I glanced at the stack to get a "before/after" sense of the impact. At this moment, there appears to be no smoke. Will try it next time I see smoke. T-stat's still at 1 and probe still at 12 o'clock high so the burn seems to have settled in nicely.



Ok, update on the update: Saw wisps of smoke again when the air got still. Opened a window for about ten minutes. Not noticing any difference in smoke output.


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## Jags (Feb 6, 2015)

It does sound like you may be over powering the cat with the outgassing of the bio-bricks.  Try fewer bricks??


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm going to hazard a guess that your house is leaky enough to not need the OAK. We're going to be warm until about Tues night. If temps drop below 40F then I suspect you will think you have a whole new stove. 

FWIW, Highbeam complained of smoke with a large load of compressed logs. I suggest trying to burn only 4 with the next load and see how that works.


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## bholler (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> It sounds like the OAK is on the leeward side of the house and in a negative pressure zone.


Yes that was my though as to what could be causeing allot of the problem oaks are good but they need to be placed properly


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> I'm going to hazard a guess that your house is leaky enough to not need the OAK. We're going to be warm until about Tues night. If temps drop below 40F then I suspect you will think you have a whole new stove.
> 
> FWIW, Highbeam complained of smoke with a large load of compressed logs. I suggest trying to burn only 4 with the next load and see how that works.



New stove in a good way? 

Though it's modern construction and well built, with 2650 square feet of high ceilings and 12 skylights, there probably is enough leakiness to run without the OAK but what about code? I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be there.


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## bholler (Feb 6, 2015)

Parallax said:


> there probably is enough leakiness to run without the OAK but what about code? I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be there.


I dont know about your local code but it is not required here at all unless the manufacturer requires it


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## Parallax (Feb 6, 2015)

Just tried a quick test. Disengaged the cat. Didn't notice any difference in smoke output. Hmmm . . .


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## begreen (Feb 6, 2015)

bholler said:


> I dont know about your local code but it is not required here at all unless the manufacturer requires it


WA state legislature made the wording vague so that some local authorities interpret it to be required on all new installs. That was not supposed to be the intent. It was supposed to be for all new home construction, the thinking that these homes would be tighter.

Tom Oyen has a good writeup on this in the sweep's library:
http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hooa.htm


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## bholler (Feb 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> WA state legislature made the wording vague so that some local authorities interpret it to be required on all new installs. That was not supposed to be the intent. It was supposed to be for all new home construction, the thinking that these homes would be tighter.


Like i said i don't know the local code you would have to check with the local code authority then


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## brenndatomu (Feb 6, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Just tried a quick test. Disengaged the cat. Didn't notice any difference in smoke output. Hmmm . . .


Funny you say that, I was just sitting here contemplating the possibility that the cat or bypass is not functioning properly. Like say, the cat has failed from excessive smoke long term, or maybe the bypass is not closing (seating) properly...? Not familiar with the particulars on the inner workings on this model


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 7, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Just tried a quick test. Disengaged the cat. Didn't notice any difference in smoke output. Hmmm . . .


It almost sounds like your cat has failed.  Is it possible for your dealer to do a temporary swap with a known functioning cat to totally eliminate the cat as being the problem?
Sometimes when I am in a rush and engage my cat too soon before the firebox gets really hot enough, I will see and smell smoke coming from the stack outside.  I then bypass the cat again and open up the air all the way until stove temps rise past the temp needed to fire the cat.  I wait a few more minutes and then engage the cat again.  This works every time for me.  The chimney smoke and smell immediately disappear. Just a thought.  And if you can't do the cat swap, I would try the vinegar deep cleaning process.


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## blueguy (Feb 7, 2015)

Sounds like your bypass door may need adjustment. Mine has had to be adjusted twice this season, and my stove is only a year old. The gasket is getting replaced next season. 

If the bypass isn't sealing right, you'll get some smoke leaking by. I doubt this is why you have the smoke smell inside, but it might explain the constant smoke outside. Before you swap out cats, burn the stove on high for a bit - the cat probe should rise (and hold) and the cat itself should start glowing. If both of those happen, your cat is GTG. Although if it is clogged up a bit, the high burn will self-clean it too. 

The other thing I would look at is the cat gasket itself. Is it there, intact, and sealing the cat body to the housing?

Edit: we had some warmer weather one night this week, and I started getting the smoke smell again. I almost burned my nose, but I am 99% sure it's not coming from the probe hole. It seems to be coming from the top left of the door, although my gasket is good, dollar bill test passed and no visual signs of soot / creosote on the outer parts of the knife edge.  Odd.  Once I can start back to 24 hr burns again, I'm going to chase this down properly.


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## Edav (Feb 7, 2015)

I also have the slight smell top left of door, but on Princess.


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## Parallax (Feb 9, 2015)

The cat definitely glows when I have the fire burning well. Yet I get smoke no matter how I burn the damn thing. Have been running regular wood this past weekend. Still a steady stream of smoke. When the stove is cool, I'll pull down the protective plate and give it a visual inspection and clean any buildup. Would not surprise me if the bypass plate needs adjustment. Adjusted it once but it didn't seem to have much effect. Perhaps the gasket is bad. How would one inspect that?

The smell inside the house is reduced but has not gone away entirely. No doubt stove is running better without OAK. Very odd that the OAK would have suffocated the fire. The four inch pipe was completely clear of obstructions. And given what a short run it had, I'm surprised there was a problem. Yet there's no denying the difference. Perhaps, for the stove, it was like drinking cool air through a straw.


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## maple1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Parallax said:


> The smell inside the house is reduced but has not gone away entirely. No doubt stove is running better without OAK. Very odd that the OAK would have suffocated the fire. The four inch pipe was completely clear of obstructions. And given what a short run it had, I'm surprised there was a problem. Yet there's no denying the difference. Perhaps, for the stove, it was like drinking cool air through a straw.


 
Not overly surprising, if the inlet for it is on the side of the house away from prevailing winds. The prevailing winds would actually serve to create a vacuum on that side of the house, and it would have had a slight sucking effect on the OAK vent. So the fire was being pulled from both sides. At worst, that is - it was likely at least creating a blocking effect.


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## begreen (Feb 9, 2015)

Theory is that the oak was acting like a vacuum sucking on the intake of the stove. This was due to it being located on the opposite side of the house from the prevailing winds. The leeward side of the house is at lower or negative pressure. The problem could be compounded by the chimney location relative to the roof and surrounding terrain.



http://www.woodheat.org/the-outdoor-air-myth-exposed.html


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## Parallax (Feb 9, 2015)

I don't imagine it makes sense to run the oak down through the floor and then across the crawl space to the windward side of the house. Though there'd be positive pressure at the intake, that's a very long straw through which the stove would be sucking its air supply. Probably best to just let it chow down on air from inside the house, no? 

It is a fairly new home (constructed in 2006). If I run exhaust fans when the stove's not on, it will suck wood smoke into the house. We've nut been running the exhaust fans at all during heating season out of fear of worsening the wood smoke. Would it maybe be a good idea to install some sort of air exchange system into the wall of the house? I understand those run about $1500.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I don't imagine it makes sense to run the oak down through the floor and then across the crawl space to the windward side of the house. Though there'd be positive pressure at the intake, that's a very long straw through which the stove would be sucking its air supply. Probably best to just let it chow down on air from inside the house, no?
> 
> It is a fairly new home (constructed in 2006). If I run exhaust fans when the stove's not on, it will suck wood smoke into the house. We've nut been running the exhaust fans at all during heating season out of fear of worsening the wood smoke. Would it maybe be a good idea to install some sort of air exchange system into the wall of the house? I understand those run about $1500.


If your crawl space is adequately vented, I would think you could just run the OAK straight down into the vented space.  But you would need to check if it is code in your area.


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## Parallax (Feb 9, 2015)

That's an interesting idea. Would be really easy to pull the vents on the windy side of the house. Not sure if the result would be good in terms of overall heating as it would allow cold air into the crawl in winter, cooling the ground story floors and make the stove's job that much harder.


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## maple1 (Feb 9, 2015)

Parallax said:


> I don't imagine it makes sense to run the oak down through the floor and then across the crawl space to the windward side of the house. Though there'd be positive pressure at the intake, that's a very long straw through which the stove would be sucking its air supply. Probably best to just let it chow down on air from inside the house, no?
> 
> It is a fairly new home (constructed in 2006). If I run exhaust fans when the stove's not on, it will suck wood smoke into the house. We've nut been running the exhaust fans at all during heating season out of fear of worsening the wood smoke. Would it maybe be a good idea to install some sort of air exchange system into the wall of the house? I understand those run about $1500.


 
How are humidity levels in your house?

If not high (high would be rare in winter), you might not (likely won't) have to run exhaust fans at all this time of year. We have an HRV, and it doesn't run at all, all winter. Don't have any other exhaust fans. Our house is fairly tight, but the winter time stack effect might be moving enough air through your house without needing anything else. Actually if there is enough of a stack effect, it might also hinder chimney draft too.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

Parallax said:


> That's an interesting idea. Would be really easy to pull the vents on the windy side of the house. Not sure if the result would be good in terms of overall heating as it would allow cold air into the crawl in winter, cooling the ground story floors and make the stove's job that much harder.


You make some good points that need to be considered.  Is your floor over the crawl space insulated?  Also, you need to be concerned about freezing pipes.  But in your warmer climate it might not be an issue.  My crawl space in Tenn is vented but winters are warm enough and heat leakage into the space from the main house protects the pipes.


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## Parallax (Feb 9, 2015)

maple1 said:


> How are humidity levels in your house?
> 
> If not high (high would be rare in winter), you might not (likely won't) have to run exhaust fans at all this time of year. We have an HRV, and it doesn't run at all, all winter. Don't have any other exhaust fans. Our house is fairly tight, but the winter time stack effect might be moving enough air through your house without needing anything else. Actually if there is enough of a stack effect, it might also hinder chimney draft too.


At this moment, the hydrometer by the stove reads 37.5. Upstairs it's quite a bit wetter, as we get condensation on skylights. I'm thinking of putting a dehumidifier upstairs as the stove doesn't seem to be able to dry out the air for the full 2650 square foot envelope.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

maple1 said:


> How are humidity levels in your house?
> 
> If not high (high would be rare in winter), you might not (likely won't) have to run exhaust fans at all this time of year. We have an HRV, and it doesn't run at all, all winter. Don't have any other exhaust fans. Our house is fairly tight, but the winter time stack effect might be moving enough air through your house without needing anything else. Actually if there is enough of a stack effect, it might also hinder chimney draft too.


After my Mother-in-law uses the bathroom, you would wish to god that you had a functioning exhaust fan year round !  I also like to use the kitchen exhaust fan when cooking certain foods like fried fish.  Just a thought.


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## Parallax (Feb 9, 2015)

Tenn Dave said:


> You make some good points that need to be considered.  Is your floor over the crawl space insulated?  Also, you need to be concerned about freezing pipes.  But in your warmer climate it might not be an issue.  My crawl space in Tenn is vented but winters are warm enough and heat leakage into the space from the main house protects the pipes.


Yes, it's insulated well because the house was designed with radiant heat. It doesn't get that cold around here and our pipes are pex, which is pretty forgiving in the event they do freeze. Just paid to add some insulation to the water pipes so there's no way they should freeze. When we go out of town for more than a few days and shut the heating system down, just to be on the safe side I shut the water to the house and drain the system.


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## Parallax (Feb 9, 2015)

Tenn Dave said:


> After my Mother-in-law uses the bathroom, you would wish to god that you had a functioning exhaust fan year round !  I also like to use the kitchen exhaust fan when cooking certain foods like fried fish.  Just a thought.


We use the exhaust fans in the upstairs bathrooms because of the moisture issues on that floor. Doesn't seem to make the smoke issue worse (at least not enough to notice). For a while, we were just opening windows because we weren't sure. The downstairs range exhaust hasn't gotten much use but if we were cooking something really smelly, we'd probably have to turn it on.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

Parallax said:


> We use the exhaust fans in the upstairs bathrooms because of the moisture issues on that floor. Doesn't seem to make the smoke issue worse (at least not enough to notice). For a while, we were just opening windows because we weren't sure. The downstairs range exhaust hasn't gotten much use but if we were cooking something really smelly, we'd probably have to turn it on.


All kidding aside, when I run the exhaust fans in the winter when the wood burner is on, I crack open a window in that room.


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## blacktail (Feb 9, 2015)

With the warm weather recently, any draft or air problems are gonna be worse.


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## blueguy (Feb 9, 2015)

Parallax said:


> The cat definitely glows when I have the fire burning well. Yet I get smoke no matter how I burn the damn thing. Have been running regular wood this past weekend. Still a steady stream of smoke. When the stove is cool, I'll pull down the protective plate and give it a visual inspection and clean any buildup. Would not surprise me if the bypass plate needs adjustment. Adjusted it once but it didn't seem to have much effect. Perhaps the gasket is bad. How would one inspect that?
> 
> The smell inside the house is reduced but has not gone away entirely. No doubt stove is running better without OAK. Very odd that the OAK would have suffocated the fire. The four inch pipe was completely clear of obstructions. And given what a short run it had, I'm surprised there was a problem. Yet there's no denying the difference. Perhaps, for the stove, it was like drinking cool air through a straw.



When's the last time you did a dollar bill test on your bypass? It should be snug all the way around all 4 sides. For the cat gasket, you should be able to visually see a continuous run of cat gasket around the cat. You could also check to see if there's any play in the cat in the housing, i.e. it should be in there snug. 

Can you post a pic of the stove end of your oak pipe? The pic further back didn't look like you had the OAK adapter on it, which may have required the ovalizing of the pipe to get it into the intake. That may explain why the stove is working better without....


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## Parallax (Feb 10, 2015)

blueguy said:


> When's the last time you did a dollar bill test on your bypass? It should be snug all the way around all 4 sides. For the cat gasket, you should be able to visually see a continuous run of cat gasket around the cat. You could also check to see if there's any play in the cat in the housing, i.e. it should be in there snug.
> 
> Can you post a pic of the stove end of your oak pipe? The pic further back didn't look like you had the OAK adapter on it, which may have required the ovalizing of the pipe to get it into the intake. That may explain why the stove is working better without....



Will have to check, as best I can, when the stove is cool. Here are some photos of the OAK. Looks like they did not use a kit.


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## blueguy (Feb 10, 2015)

So they just jammed the end of that pipe into the air intake vice using the proper connector? I wonder how closed off that was when it was in the intake? It might have been restricting the air going in the intake enough to cause some of the issues.


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2015)

blacktail said:


> With the warm weather recently, any draft or air problems are gonna be worse.


Indeed. We are having a very warm February with 50F temps overnight. A few years back we weren't that warm at the end of April.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> Indeed. We are having a very warm February with 50F temps overnight. A few years back we weren't that warm at the end of April.



I wish you west coast guys would stop . . . seems like we're stuck in a weather pattern of alternating days of either brutally cold temps followed by snow. 

I just know that in a few weeks you're going to do that thing again . . . post pics of flowers popping up all over the place . . . while we still look out at the gray skies and yards full of gray-white snow.


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## jatoxico (Feb 10, 2015)

firefighterjake said:


> I wish you west coast guys would stop . . . seems like we're stuck in a weather pattern of alternating days of either brutally cold temps followed by snow.
> 
> *I just know that in a few weeks you're going to do that thing again . . . post pics of flowers popping up all over the place . . . while we still look out at the gray skies and yards full of gray-white snow.*



 It's not funny


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2015)

I've held off. Crocuses are in full bloom and daffodils are starting to open up. This is early, even for us.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 10, 2015)

jatoxico said:


> It's not funny



But you watch . . . sometime in March someone out that way will be posting pics of crocuses and other flowers popping up . . . while we still look out at a yard full of half melted snow.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> I've held off. Crocuses are in full bloom and daffodils are starting to open up. This is early, even for us.



WHAT

OK, it's official. You stink BeGreen. 













OK, I've reconsidered. Could you post a pic or two to at least give us some hope?


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## jatoxico (Feb 10, 2015)

Actually I could use a tangible few signs of spring considering the groundhogs were all split, although the one one that bit the mayor is my sentimental favorite.


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2015)

Here you go, I just stepped outside and grabbed a few quick shots.  It's been very wet outside so the garden beds are still messy. I need to walk over to our neighbors to gets some blooming daffodil shots. They get more sunlight than ours do.  
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/its-coming-soon.140887/


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## Parallax (Feb 10, 2015)

Winters like this concern me. I don't want my cold and dank little paradise to turn into Anaheim.


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## Parallax (Feb 10, 2015)

blueguy said:


> So they just jammed the end of that pipe into the air intake vice using the proper connector? I wonder how closed off that was when it was in the intake? It might have been restricting the air going in the intake enough to cause some of the issues.



Would it be worth getting the right adaptor and reconnecting the OAK?


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2015)

I don't think that fitting is restrictive nor the problem. The 90 degree turn in the outside air duct would restrict air intake more. As noted, the location of the OAK intake is much more likely the primary issue.


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## Swedishchef (Feb 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> I've held off. Crocuses are in full bloom and daffodils are starting to open up. This is early, even for us.


Then why in the H3LL do you have a wood stove? You have what, 6 days below freezing? LOL


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## Parallax (Feb 10, 2015)

Had a chance to speak with Dennis out of the Blaze King office in B.C. Chris (BKVP) is out of the country right now, but Dennis was equally helpful. We talked extensively about my problems and he gave me some ideas about running the stove in ways likely to reduce the draw problems I've been experiencing. Between the extra 4 feet of chimney pipe, disconnecting the OAK and his advice, we may be alright. Each change has helped so the question is whether there's a remaining smoke problem to address. Should know in a few weeks. 

He said this is a particularly challenging time given how warm it's been. He suggested cracking a downstairs window when running the fans in the upstairs bathrooms. Same thing if running the range exhaust. That could be the source of the problem (in the sense of making a challenging situation worse). He said it would be best not to reconnect the OAK, with or without the right adaptor. He also had some ideas about the issue of constant smoke from the chimney. Said it's essentially impossible to damage the bypass gasket. Said the stove is designed to run for extended periods at high temperature and cannot be over-fired because the t-stat will prevent it from getting too hot. Said I could not have damaged the cat gasket without pulling out the cat. He thought most likely the smoke is just water vapor from the burn. He gave me some ideas for testing this. At worst, I'll have to tighten up the bypass plate or brush out (or replace) the cat (which is well under warranty).  

Worst case, if we keep getting smoke in the house, he said we could install something like this: http://www.pricefalls.com/product/6...ive=44869806631&device=c&matchtype=&network=g

It's a heating element attached to a piece of stove pipe. Not the ideal solution because it burns electricity whenever the stove is running. But there's no noise and it would improve draft. Would also get rid of that ugly stove collar adaptor, albeit with something else not entirely attractive.


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## Parallax (Feb 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> I don't think that fitting is restrictive nor the problem. The 90 degree turn in the outside air duct would restrict air intake more. As noted, the location of the OAK intake is much more likely the primary issue.



Begreen, you did a review a while back on homefire logs: (https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/home-fire-prest-logs/). Dennis thought they might not be safe to burn (in terms of possibly damaging the cat), not knowing what additives or binders might be used. Did you have a chance to analyze them? Clayton, the owner, swears they're just held together under high pressure with zero additives. Do you have any sense of this?


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## Parallax (Feb 10, 2015)

maple1 said:


> How are humidity levels in your house?
> 
> If not high (high would be rare in winter), you might not (likely won't) have to run exhaust fans at all this time of year. We have an HRV, and it doesn't run at all, all winter. Don't have any other exhaust fans. Our house is fairly tight, but the winter time stack effect might be moving enough air through your house without needing anything else. Actually if there is enough of a stack effect, it might also hinder chimney draft too.



Was just thinking about your question. We have a room upstairs where we get a bunch of condensation on the underside of a skylight. So much so, it often drips down onto the bed. There appears to be no leak. I had a roof inspector come out and he said the condensation is on the inside of the pane. I wonder if this is the spot where hot air is somehow squeezing out.


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Begreen, you did a review a while back on homefire logs: (https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/home-fire-prest-logs/). Dennis thought they might not be safe to burn (in terms of possibly damaging the cat), not knowing what additives or binders might be used. Did you have a chance to analyze them? Clayton, the owner, swears they're just held together under high pressure with zero additives. Do you have any sense of this?


Dennis? There are no binders in HomeFires. They and Northern Idaho Energy Logs are formed with precision dies under incredibly high pressure. Heat releases the natural lignens in the wood bind them.


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## pdxdave (Feb 10, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Winters like this concern me. I don't want my cold and dank little paradise to turn into Anaheim.


I hear you. I knew something was up when I had my dog down at the lake for a swim and there was a bunch of kids swimming along side of him.... This was a couple weeks ago back in January.


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## begreen (Feb 10, 2015)

It's not that warm.


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## pdxdave (Feb 10, 2015)

begreen said:


> It's not that warm.


I know... I'm just reporting what I witnessed, it was a warmish Sunday, low 60's, and there were some children swimming Lake Washington, goggles and all, while their parents watched.


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## Parallax (Feb 11, 2015)

pdxdave said:


> I know... I'm just reporting what I witnessed, it was a warmish Sunday, low 60's, and there were some children swimming Lake Washington, goggles and all, while their parents watched.


Not sure who's crazier -- the parents or the kids.


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## Parallax (Feb 11, 2015)

begreen said:


> Dennis? There are no binders in HomeFires. They and Northern Idaho Energy Logs are formed with precision dies under incredibly high pressure. Heat releases the natural lignens in the wood bind them.


Pretty sure his name is Dennis. Out of the Penticton, B.C. office. 

Clayton over at HomeFire swears they're the same as the Northern Idahos. Dennis said the Northern Idahos are alright but that they're the only ones he approves of.


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## pdxdave (Feb 11, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Not sure who's crazier -- the parents or the kids.


I know it sounds crazy, but honestly it really wasn't. It was a very nice day, and I was even thinking to myself that if I had my bathing suit I for sure would have waded in a bit. The park was packed, and there were lots of people down by the water which was really not that cold, a few kids splashing around didn't seem out of the ordinary at all... until I rememberred it was January.


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## Parallax (Feb 17, 2015)

Things seemed to be going well since they pulled off the OAK. The improvement had been small but we were doing a bunch of things that seemed, with the increased air flow, to be helping. There was very little smoke smell in the house. 

Then two days ago, we got a major back puff which blew smoke through the collar at the base of the stove pipe and up through the cat probe hole. After that, we began getting wood smoke smell again coming off the top of the stove. I was giving it time to see if things got better. Tonight, as we were watching television, the room was getting cold so I went over to the stove. It was crashing so I turned the dial up just a bit -- from about 2 to about 2.5. Ten or fifteen minutes, there was another back puff explosion, sending a plume of smoke into the room. It was bad. We turned off the television and went up to our room to get away from the smoke. That was maybe 15 minutes ago. 

This should not be happening. Perhaps a draw collar is the next thing to try. Here's a link for this device: http://www.pricefalls.com/product/6...ive=44869806631&device=c&matchtype=&network=g

Right now it's 47 degrees out. Perhaps when it gets colder we wouldn't have to run the draw collar. Perhaps it could just be used when the temperature differential is inadequate. What'd y'all think?


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2015)

It sounds like you are trying to run the stove with too little air. The fire had gone out. Increasing the air finally caused a flame to start and that ignited a stove full of smoke. Try running the stove at a higher air setting in these mild temperatures or let the stove go out. In our stove for the past 2 days we've only been doing a short hot morning fire, then let it go out. Then another small hot evening fire.


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## pdxdave (Feb 17, 2015)

I think theres something wrong with that stove. As long as the stove is even warmish, it should be pulling smoke up out the chimney.


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## rideau (Feb 17, 2015)

I have not seen a simple answer to one question.  Are you positive that your cat is not clogged?  If you have enough surface ash on the entry side of the cat you will not have adequate air flow through the cat, you will get sluggish burning no matter your air setting, you will be subject to backpuffing,

If you have not done so, check your cat now to be certain it is clean.  On the side here the air enters the cat from the firebox.  The other side can look fine when the surface is coated with ash.

Does your stove run with flame at a relatively low air setting if the cat is not engaged?  If you only have a problem being able to maintain a flame when the cat is engaged, then the cat is blocking your draft.

And, if you have not done so, get the chimney sweep out to sweep the chimney.  It cannot hurt, and you are near enough to the end of the burning season that if you get the chimney cleaned now, AND find that it IS clean, then you do not need to repeat the clean at the end of the season.   There is no reason that I can see to delay this simple step.  And, as others have pointed out, the sweep may have some advice and should be able to easily check the draft.  Just let them know when you call to make the appointment that you have had some issues and would appreciate their most knowledgeable/troubleshooting sweep, and also a check of the chimney draft.

You should have the cat disengaged whenever you have the door open,  so the fact that you get flame/improved draft at that time does not rule out the cat needing cleaning being your problem. 

Without rereading the thread, I believe the issue was not present when you first used the stove?


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## drz1050 (Feb 17, 2015)

Another way of wording one of the questions Rideau asked: 

Do you ever get backpuffing with the cat bypassed?


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## drz1050 (Feb 19, 2015)

Any update?


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## tarzan (Feb 19, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Things seemed to be going well since they pulled off the OAK. The improvement had been small but we were doing a bunch of things that seemed, with the increased air flow, to be helping. There was very little smoke smell in the house.
> 
> Then two days ago, we got a major back puff which blew smoke through the collar at the base of the stove pipe and up through the cat probe hole. After that, we began getting wood smoke smell again coming off the top of the stove. I was giving it time to see if things got better. Tonight, as we were watching television, the room was getting cold so I went over to the stove. It was crashing so I turned the dial up just a bit -- from about 2 to about 2.5. Ten or fifteen minutes, there was another back puff explosion, sending a plume of smoke into the room. It was bad. We turned off the television and went up to our room to get away from the smoke. That was maybe 15 minutes ago.
> 
> ...



I know all setups are different but running on 2 and 2.5 when it's in the mid 40's outside don't sound right. I'm running mine on 2 at the moment but it's 0*f. I have active flames in the box and a stove top (steel) at 525*.

Do you have active flames when running at 2 or 2.5 with backpuffing I'm going to guess not much.


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## alforit (Feb 21, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Things seemed to be going well since they pulled off the OAK. The improvement had been small but we were doing a bunch of things that seemed, with the increased air flow, to be helping. There was very little smoke smell in the house.
> 
> Then two days ago, we got a major back puff which blew smoke through the collar at the base of the stove pipe and up through the cat probe hole. After that, we began getting wood smoke smell again coming off the top of the stove. I was giving it time to see if things got better. Tonight, as we were watching television, the room was getting cold so I went over to the stove. It was crashing so I turned the dial up just a bit -- from about 2 to about 2.5. Ten or fifteen minutes, there was another back puff explosion, sending a plume of smoke into the room. It was bad. We turned off the television and went up to our room to get away from the smoke. That was maybe 15 minutes ago.
> 
> ...




Any update Parallax  ?

Did you get the chimney sweep out to your place to clean and check the chimney and draft ?
Also check your cat for any blockage ?

My sister has a Woodstock Progress Hybrid and she lives down south of you and east of the area I live in .... She has a similar setup , situation.   Has tall timbers surrounding her home and her chimney is around 27 feet.   She was getting almost the same symptoms that you have been reporting on your posts. IE: Backpuffing....Smoke coming out at the collar of the stove and the cat and fire choking out.
She found out it was her cat screen and cat that were clogged. And when she cleaned them out she was back to a normal burn and draft.

The PH has a tendency toward this problem of screen and cat blockage and the BK's do not.........But ........The similarity in these symptoms with your stove and her stove points to the obvious possibility of blockage somewhere In your stove pipe or chimney or possibly your cat.

I have seen that you have been looking for other fixes to the problem other than taking care of the obvious and ruling that out first.
I know its frustrating but in order to help , it has to be done one step at a time .........Ruling out the most important first and then going to the next.....If you don't follow this process it will only lead to more frustration.

So first is the draft and chimney check and clean by a chimney sweep. ( Unless you have already done that of course) But haven't heard anything back from you yet.  Just waiting. Heh


P.S   The Ashford is a fantastic stove and has exceeded my expectations .(And I am a pretty picky guy.)  And I have had a few different stoves ,  but this stove is by far my favorite.
         I know what its potential is and I want that for you.  So don't give up until you have ruled out the basics first.


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## alforit (Feb 23, 2015)

Parallax said:


> Things seemed to be going well since they pulled off the OAK. The improvement had been small but we were doing a bunch of things that seemed, with the increased air flow, to be helping. There was very little smoke smell in the house.
> 
> Then two days ago, we got a major back puff which blew smoke through the collar at the base of the stove pipe and up through the cat probe hole. After that, we began getting wood smoke smell again coming off the top of the stove. I was giving it time to see if things got better. Tonight, as we were watching television, the room was getting cold so I went over to the stove. It was crashing so I turned the dial up just a bit -- from about 2 to about 2.5. Ten or fifteen minutes, there was another back puff explosion, sending a plume of smoke into the room. It was bad. We turned off the television and went up to our room to get away from the smoke. That was maybe 15 minutes ago.
> 
> ...




One more thing Parallax ,


After reading through the thread I haven't seen any info on how you are loading and reloading your stove,


When you are reloading a new load of wood at the end of a burn cycle , if you don't let that load of wood ignite and burn until well charred for bit then what will happen is that new load will smolder and will cool the stove off and stall the cat after some time has gone by ...., The smoldering of the wood will increase and start the wood to offgass too much . ( This tends to happen with a large load of those compressed logs and a large load of regular splits and wood that is not dry enough ). So you have all this offgassing happening but the temp in the stove is not high enough to light off the cat .  So then you turn up the t stat and that adds the air to the gasses and the smoldering wood and BAM !   backpuff explosion. This doesn't happen all the time. Conditions have to be just right. But your taking a risk by loading this way.

It doesn't matter if the cat is still in the active zone when you reload. That doesn't mean its going to stay that way with the new load of wood , unless you give it some good flames and char that wood for a bit.......(.Experience and stove temp and wood quality will dictate how long to do this).


If you are adding wood in the middle of a burn cycle you take the risk of backpuffing with these stoves.....That wood you are adding drops the temp in the stove and can stall the cat....And the coals from the existing load smolders the new wood all at once creating too much offgassing.... ...Not all the time but sometimes.. .....Its best to leave it alone and let it burn through the whole cycle,



The reason I am asking is because I have experienced backpuffing a few times when burning with these cat stoves and what I learned is that after you load you gotta let some good flames char that wood for a bit and let it get up to temp (cat in the active zone ..even if its still in the active zone on reload ) and then shut the bypass and turn down the stat to around the normal range ( or whatever setting works best for you.). Then leave the stove alone and let it burn through the cycle of wood until its down to enough coals to relight and the cat is dropping close to inactive.

Those compressed logs will offgass a lot . expecially if you load a lot in at once. Gotta char them good with some good flame before you shut down the stat and close the bypass.

Like Begreen said , use a smaller load of those compressed logs . At least until you get used to them and know the limit for your setup.

TIP:   Do smaller loads of whatever type of wood you are burning until you get the learning curve down to this stove,


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 23, 2015)

Parallax, I know this is not what you want to hear, but perhaps it's time to change stoves.  Not all stoves work well in all situations.  Not long ago there was a member from Illinois posting here about a smoke smell problem with a BK (I believe it was the Ashford) who tried everything to correct the problem but failed.  He changed his stove out for another brand and the problem was solved.  Just a thought.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 23, 2015)

Over four hundred posts on this over at least three threads. Closing this one.


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