# News flash from stihl! for you octane haters!



## smokinj (May 19, 2011)

The Outdoor Power Equipment Institute (OPEI) made its position clear on this issue during recent testimony in front of the House oversight committee on environment and public works. At STIHL our basic recommendation is that fuel be as high an octane rating as possible, at least 89, and contain no more than 10% ethanol. STIHL customers should also be aware that using fuel containing more than 10% ethanol could void the product warranty. 




http://stihlusa.blogspot.com/2011/05/stihl-motomix-offers-convenience-and.html


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## CTYank (May 20, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> The Outdoor Power Equipment Institute (OPEI) made its position clear on this issue during recent testimony in front of the House oversight committee on environment and public works. At STIHL our basic recommendation is that fuel be as high an octane rating as possible, at least 89, and contain no more than 10% ethanol. STIHL customers should also be aware that using fuel containing more than 10% ethanol could void the product warranty.



Sure sounds like Stihl USA wants their customers in a squeeze between feds/EPA, oil companies, and Stihl dealers. Some folks have said that Echo has gotten into that.

Maybe they could design/build their saws to run reliably with available fuels and/or provide appropriate additives in their engine oil.

Something's wrong when the big-guys threaten to jump on the little-guys. (How do you know if someone sells you 13% ethanol, vice the 10% on the label?)

Better the big players work it out and keep the paying customers out of the scrimmage, not try to use them as their lobbying tools.


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## smokinj (May 20, 2011)

CTYank said:
			
		

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Yep they are throwing darts for sure. Really do not think they could prove it anyways but sure sending a strong message. This really means there taking a beating on saws going down in the first year.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 20, 2011)

AvGas = 100 octane + Lead = chainsaw bliss


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## mayhem (May 20, 2011)

They want us to all go to Wal Mart and buy the pre-mixed stuff in the quart cans at 5x the price of pump gas.


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## smokinj (May 20, 2011)

mayhem said:
			
		

> They want us to all go to Wal Mart and buy the pre-mixed stuff in the quart cans at 5x the price of pump gas.



No, but stressing at-least 89 octane as mim.


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## smokinj (May 20, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> AvGas = 100 octane + Lead = chainsaw bliss



That is a great way to go....


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## Creekyphil (May 20, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> AvGas = 100 octane + Lead = chainsaw bliss



I'm not familiar with avgas, but a quick google shows many different grades and types.  Is there one that you recommend running?


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## smokinj (May 20, 2011)

Creekyphil said:
			
		

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This stuff is expensie and can be bought at any small airport. 100 octane without ethanol. If you just run the best can you can find you will be in good shape. I run 93 and 94. There is additives out there to take the ethanol out. The saws being ran on 87 octane and under is where the issue really lyes. Without the ethanol there would not be a problem.


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## Backwoods Savage (May 20, 2011)

I think Stihl is just trying to come up with another money maker; those little homeowners that run their saw once every year or two for maybe 20 minutes.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 20, 2011)

Creekyphil said:
			
		

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100LL AvGas.  It's the only gasoline I've ever seen sold at airports in WA.  I heard 88LL used to be common but no one sells it anymore.  Check with a local municipal airport.  I bet they have only Jet A (which is basically kerosene) and 100LL AvGas.

A couple bonuses: 1) AvGas has a very long shelf life, even in a plastic gas can.  In a metal gas can it takes years to go bad.  2) It will not gum up your carb the way pump gas will if left sitting for too long.  3) Easier starting - a 5 pull saw becomes a 3 or 4 pull saw.  4) More complete/uniform combustion makes the saw run cooler at a given RPM, AND by the same principal you'll get a few extra RPM.  5) Around here it costs only about $.50 per gallon more than premium and the biggest pain about it is actually going to the airport to get it.


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## smokinj (May 20, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

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At .50 cents more its a NO- Brain-er!


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## CTBurner (May 20, 2011)

The airport near me has AV gas both LL100 and LL80  am i correct in that the LL100 would be best choice for saws


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## lukem (May 20, 2011)

Forgive the ignorance, and if this has been discussed before, but what is it about ethanol that would be hard on a two stroke engine?  I know they can be hard on a fuel system (deteriorate plastics and rubbers) but what is the difference when the fuel is in the cylinder?


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## smokinj (May 20, 2011)

lukem said:
			
		

> Forgive the ignorance, and if this has been discussed before, but what is it about ethanol that would be hard on a two stroke engine? I know they can be hard on a fuel system (deteriorate plastics and rubbers) but what is the difference when the fuel is in the cylinder?



Without going into the science of it (because I cant) It cause piston failure ring and or damage.


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## lukem (May 20, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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Anyone know anything else?  

Alcohol burns cooler than gas, so is it a temperature thing?  

In a 4 cycle engine spark knock/detonation/pinging can occur with poor quality fuel, which leans things out and can burn a hole in the piston if it goes on long enough.  Could the same type of thing apply for 2 cycle engines and ethanol?

There has to be some science behind it.  I'm with you Jay...don't disagree with the statement...but sure would like to know why ethanol is bad (don't know the science either).


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## smokinj (May 20, 2011)

lukem said:
			
		

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The stihl news letter link at the top of the thread has many supporting links with in the news letter sure the details are there. 
Too long winded for me to write down....lol This is a direct link form stihls news letter.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/hom...s-from-the-wear-and-tear-of-e10?click=main_sr


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## oldspark (May 20, 2011)

I will look for a link but ethanol does not burn cooler.


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## lukem (May 20, 2011)

Thanks Jay.

Cliff's Notes:

Results from the use of ethanol, which can cause rust and carbon deposits inside the engine, dissolve plastic parts and more

Deposits and corrosion aren't the only reasons alcohol is hard on today's small engines. The power plants are easily ruined by bad fuel because they lack the sophisticated computer-controlled ignition systems found in today's cars and trucks. The alcohol can cause the fuel to ignite at the wrong time in the combustion sequence, ruining parts in the process.


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## lukem (May 20, 2011)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I will look for a link but ethanol does not burn cooler.



Sure it does.  That's why it is popular with race cars.  Doesn't pack as much punch as gas, but burns a lot cooler.


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## fireview2788 (May 20, 2011)

Stihl told me the same thing several months ago when I contacted them to get a manual for my saw.  They said a minimum of 89 octane. 


fv


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## oldspark (May 20, 2011)

lukem said:
			
		

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 I know that but there is a disagreement on it in two strokes, do a google search and you will find a huge can of worms.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 23, 2011)

CTBurner said:
			
		

> The airport near me has AV gas both LL100 and LL80  am i correct in that the LL100 would be best choice for saws



Yes


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## fyrwoodguy (May 23, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

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i'm with you redd...+1


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## smokinj (May 23, 2011)

fyrwoodguy said:
			
		

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How much a gallon does this run? Average is fine.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 23, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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I really couldn't say.  I'm still using stuff I've had since '09.


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## smokinj (May 23, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

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Wow....I have a couple small airports close just dont want to drop a 50.00 for 5 gallons.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 23, 2011)

Call a couple of them.  I'm betting you'd be closer to 10 gallons for $50.00


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## smokinj (May 23, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> Call a couple of them. I'm betting you'd be closer to 10 gallons for $50.00



Sounds good i will check 5.00 a gallon don't bad to bypass the ethanol all together.


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## Kenster (May 23, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

> Call a couple of them.  I'm betting you'd be closer to 10 gallons for $50.00




100LL avgas averages about $5.65 a gallon throughout the US.  I'm paying near $4.00 for 89 octave auto gas.  For as little as I use, the premium of $1.65 or so per gallon would be worth it in the long run for the health and well being of my saw investment. 

A two gallon can might last me a year.


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## smokinj (May 23, 2011)

Kenster said:
			
		

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Thats my thought as well. Milling takes up some fuel but should run a little better maybe getting a little better gas mileage helping to off set that a little.


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## CTBurner (May 23, 2011)

price i got from airport was 5.65 per gallon for LL100


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## smokinj (May 23, 2011)

CTBurner said:
			
		

> price i got from airport was 5.65 per gallon for LL100



Hard to complain with that. Once its 15 percent this will be cheaper. (after additives)


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## wendell (May 26, 2011)

I can still get 91 no ethanol gas here but as soon as I can't, I'll definitely be heading to the airport. For those that want to find prices in their area:

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html


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## smokinj (May 26, 2011)

wendell said:
			
		

> I can still get 91 no ethanol gas here but as soon as I can't, I'll definitely be heading to the airport. For those that want to find prices in their area:
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> http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html



NICE!


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## wendell (May 26, 2011)

I'm all about making you happy, Jay!!


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## smokinj (May 26, 2011)

wendell said:
			
		

> I'm all about making you happy, Jay!!



Yea, Wendall I know thats your goal. Hate to see that 7900 get beat by a little 460.  :lol:


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## wendell (May 26, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> Yea, Wendall I know thats your goal. Hate to see that 7900 get beat by a little 460.  :lol:



WTH are you talking about. My 2171 would take down any 460. The 7901 wouldn't even break a sweat.  ;-)


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## smokinj (May 26, 2011)

wendell said:
			
		

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lol :cheese:       " Iâ€™m all about making you happy, Jay!!" Man that didnt last long!  :lol:


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## wendell (May 26, 2011)

Oh, sorry. I didn't know we were talking about your 460.  ;-)


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## smokinj (May 26, 2011)

wendell said:
			
		

> Oh, sorry. I didn't know we were talking about your 460.  ;-)



LOL Funny!  :lol:


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## Rich L (May 26, 2011)

The two airports I called in my area said they can only sell fuel to aircraft.So how does one like myself purchase this fuel ?


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## wendell (May 26, 2011)

I think they have to say that but I know many people are doing it. I'd just stop out, be friendly, get to know somebody and see what happens. Or, try to become friends with a pilot. I'm sure things are a little more strict out on the east coast than elsewhere.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 27, 2011)

Rich L said:
			
		

> The two airports I called in my area said they can only sell fuel to aircraft.So how does one like myself purchase this fuel ?



Since there is no road tax assessed on AvGas it's not legal to burn in licensed highway vehicles, but, there's no law against filling up a gas can.  However, if it's just their policy to sell only to aircraft I guess you're SOL.  If they are close stop by and 'splain that you'd rather use quality fuel in your power equipment and I bet they'll let you fill up your gas can.  If possible speak to the actual owner of the AP, not the receptionist.  No offense ladies but 99% of you don't get it.


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## TMonter (May 27, 2011)

Here at the local heliport they have a self-serve card lock that sells 100LL and I'm starting to use AV gas in my saws and lawn equipment. I've gotten sick of taking carburetors apart and cleaning them every season.


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## RIDGERUNNER30 (May 29, 2011)

I got a quick question, I just replaced my second carb on my sthil weed trimmer, due to ethanol blended fuel, my question is can you you burn 100% octance in a sthil saw and weed trimmer without hurting the piston and ring? I have been told you can burn a hole in your piston with this jet fuel.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 29, 2011)

RIDGERUNNER30 said:
			
		

> I got a quick question, I just replaced my second carb on my sthil weed trimmer, due to ethanol blended fuel, my question is can you you burn 100% octance in a sthil saw and weed trimmer without hurting the piston and ring? I have been told you can burn a hole in your piston with this jet fuel.



It's not "100%" octane.  It's 100 octane.  And the answer is no.  I've cut 7-12 cord per year for the last 8 years with the old 290 burning mostly AvGas and my saw still runs like a top with zero carb maintenance or repair.  High octane = more controlled burning = cooler engine temps at any given RPM.  You are far more likely to damage your piston from early detonation associated with lower octane gasoline.


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## RIDGERUNNER30 (May 29, 2011)

Thanks Bigg_Redd, I going to start using it, It to expensive to buy carbs and costly downtime.


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## smokinj (May 29, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

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100 percent correct!


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## wkpoor (May 30, 2011)

When you go to the county airport to get you gas just look for the nearest plane and use that tail number. Basically all they need is a number to put it against for the sale.


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## wkpoor (May 30, 2011)

Oh BTW make sure its a recip hehehehehe. Don't use a turbine tail #


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## Bigg_Redd (May 30, 2011)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> When you go to the county airport to get you gas just look for the nearest plane and use that tail number. Basically all they need is a number to put it against for the sale.



I use all "N"s


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## Angelo C (May 31, 2011)

RIDGERUNNER30 said:
			
		

> I got a quick question, I just replaced my second carb on my sthil weed trimmer, due to ethanol blended fuel, my question is can you you burn 100% octance in a sthil saw and weed trimmer without hurting the piston and ring? I have been told you can burn a hole in your piston with this jet fuel.



Make sure you use 100LL and not "jet-A" . jet-A is kerosene and will burn more then a hole in your piston...

for you guys that fear the AV Gas, you can blend in some regular if you really feel the need to add some corn to your OPE.


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## Bigg_Redd (May 31, 2011)

Angelo C said:
			
		

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It's pretty tough to get Jet-A and 100LL confused at the pump.  Even if you did put Jet-A in a saw I doubt it'd hurt anything cuz it wouldn't run.


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## welderboyjk (May 31, 2011)

lukem said:
			
		

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IIRC alcohol will produce 10 to 15 percent more horsepower than gasoline in a given engine. Yes, it does run cooler, maybe not burn cooler but it has something to do with the evaporation through the intake. Have you ever seen the size of a radiator on a big block chevy that was running alky?
It does weigh a touch less than gasoline but the problem is that properly tuned (gallon wise) you burn nearly twice as much. 
Some sanctioning bodies will specify the fuel that you have to run but some of the local (sturday night) tracks are open.


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