# Pellet Boiler Options



## arngnick (Oct 30, 2013)

OK...I have read alotofthe older forums but I have not found all the up to dat information that I was looking for.
I have an Uncle that lives in Derry, New Hampshire and he is tired of paying the oil man. He has considered adding a pellet insert and a new cat woodstove to supplement his oil. I suggested he just a good pellet boiler to cut his costs and use his hot water system.
He currently uses an old oil boiler that tests at about 80% efficient. The current oil boiler that he has is 140KBTU and his home is about 2500SQFT. He is concerned about getting such units serviced and little maintenance and ease of use is important to him. He also currently supplements heat with an older wood stove in his kitchen/living room. What are your suggestions as well as well as practical costs that he should expect. 
I am trying to research and contact people about the following boilers. Which am I missing?
Varmebaronen PelletMax UB, MESys, Windhanger, Harmon PB105, Viadrus.


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## maple1 (Oct 30, 2013)

How solid is his oil boiler? Would adding a pellet head to it be an option? That way if something doesn't work out with pellets he could put his oil burner back on.


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## rowerwet (Oct 30, 2013)

central boiler, I have a Maxim M-175 for sale not to far from where he lives 
link to the newer model, http://www.maximheat.com/models


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## foamit up (Oct 30, 2013)

I installed a BioWin 260 in place of another pellet boiler that did not work. The BioWin is wonderful. It has burned 1100 pounds of pellets since OCT 5, with no problems. I keep checking it  and it is always working perfect. Last yr in Oct i burned 1 1/2 ton with the old boiler. It has a big heat load. I estimated to burn 15-16 tons but with the Bio WIN it could be a lot less. I can not wait till it is January to see how it handles the load then. It is all automatic, set it and forget it. Foamit UP.


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## Chris Hoskin (Oct 30, 2013)

Fröling P4, Pellergy and Kedel should also be considered.  Keep in mind that NH offers a generous incentive if he installs an automatic, high efficiency pellet boiler with a bulk storage bin of at least three tons (30% of total system cost up to $6000.00).


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## DZL_Damon (Oct 30, 2013)

You lucky dogs in NH and MA! All your sweet incentives to put in a nice central pellet or wood heating system BEYOND the savings from the oil man. Maine gets nothin!

I would certainly encourage him to get a central pellet system over the pellet stove if he can afford it. The incentives are very appealing and then the system just keeps paying for itself.

I decided to go with the Kedel myself. The Frolings and MESys (Okofen) looks AWESOME, but they are a bit more expensive. I started hearing about the BioWINS after I purchased my Kedel and they sound like they are quite nice as well and would have seriously considered them if I heard about them before my purchase..

I almost bought a Harman PB105 but went with Kedel since it was the same price with lots more efficiency with o2 control, self cleaning features along with remote monitoring/control.

Kedel advertises estimated installed prices for all their units including bulk storage options with a transfer system to your "day" hopper. Your installers price might vary depending on complexity just like it would for any brand.

Harman advertises MSRP on the PB105 at $7200 on their website for the boiler alone. All the other companies required a phone call if I remember correctly from when I was doing my research as well.

I think the 140kbtu boiler in that 2500ft2 house is a little over sized unless you have no insulation. My house is about 2300ft2 with scrawny 2x4 walls with only R11 insulation. I have 2 garage doors on the house, 2 entry doors about 280ft2 of glass, and r50 to r60 in my attic. My heat balance calculation for 70*F inside the whole house (which will never happen since it's a raised ranch and we live upstairs) is about 65,000btu/hr with -10*F outside temperature and an estimated 1 air exchange/hr (which is being overly cautious). My house has a 100kbtu Pensotti oil boiler originally with a DHW tank with no issues.

I bought a 102k btu Kedel boiler, but I also ran underground lines to another 1000ft2 of shop space. I could have easily settled with the 68k btu boiler with no issue, and even the 54k btu boiler for 98% of the time. The only thing that would happen with a slightly smaller boiler is the entire house would not maintain 70*F at max fire on a design degree day (-10*F in my area). This would not be an issue if some of the space is garage like half of mine is... it's fine at 40*F while I'm not working in there.


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## heaterman (Oct 30, 2013)

We have been nothing but absolutely impressed with the Windhagers we have installed. As far as I can see they are the yardstick in terms of value and performance. Great combustion control without the use of an O2 sensor is a plus in my book.


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## arngnick (Oct 30, 2013)

Maple...I did not think of that but it would be a good idea. I think that type of setup would require more tinkering and cleaning than he would like to do. As well as the boiler is quite old.

We would not consider an outdoor unit. We are looking for something that will sit inside so the central boiler is out. I have been in contact with Marc in mass about the Windhanger and the system looks nice, the price is on the upper end so we are hesitant to go that route unless it is clear that it is a superior unit. After talking to Mark from AHONA this will be a system that will likely make it through to the final line-up in the desicion process, I would like to know if anyone has any expirience or thoughts on the Viadrus Hurcules Eco. I also just started looking at the other options that were suggested and I am quite impressed with the Frolling but I am sure the price tag is also be impressive. Still alot to look at before making a desicion. Thanks for all the useful coments so far.


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## peakbagger (Oct 31, 2013)

Maine Energy Systems has been installing all sort of pellet boilers up in Berlin NH. http://www.maineenergysystems.com/OkoFEN_AutoPellet_Boilers.htm. There are some special incentives for the area in addition to the NH incentive. They sell manual fill boilers but most get the bulk fed units that get bulk deliveries. The system reliability is at the point where banks do not require backup fuel. Of course bulk fed systesm are only worth buying if there is a local supplier but its worth looking. MES has some sort of pellet price protection in place. These systems are not inexpensive


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## arngnick (Oct 31, 2013)

peakbagger said:


> Maine Energy Systems has been installing all sort of pellet boilers up in Berlin NH. http://www.maineenergysystems.com/OkoFEN_AutoPellet_Boilers.htm. There are some special incentives for the area in addition to the NH incentive. They sell manual fill boilers but most get the bulk fed units that get bulk deliveries. The system reliability is at the point where banks do not require backup fuel. Of course bulk fed systesm are only worth buying if there is a local supplier but its worth looking. MES has some sort of pellet price protection in place. These systems are not inexpensive


 

We are trying to look at the MESys if we can get a call back from them...


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## Tim04757 (Oct 31, 2013)

I purchased a Kedel for my 2100 sq. ft. home which had a VERY old wood boiler and an oil boiler which tested out much the same as the one you have.  The Kedel should not be overlooked as an option.  I am very happy, it should fit right into your existing heating system and the ease of operation is great.  If you are helping your uncle with this project you'll like the Kedel in that you can view it's operation and change it's settings via the web.  I know other units have this as an option ($$$) but it is included with the Kedel.  There are a variety of storage solutions ranging from 320 lb hopper up to as many tons as you have room for with a vacuum feed option.  Take a look at them all and make your own choice like we all did.  But don't overlook the Kedel.  They are more reasonably priced than other units and have most of the same options.  I have blogged about my experience installing and using the Kedel,  if you are interested  here is the link.  Good luck in your search.  http://kedelproject.blogspot.com/


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## sinnian (Oct 31, 2013)

Beware!  Some comments are from people who may have a stake in the pellet boiler business.

It is unwise to rip out the old oil boiler!  While most of these unit seem remarkable, they are not time tested in the US.  There is a difference between the European models and the US models due to the 50 Hz versus our 60 Hz.  If something were to happen to the new pellet boiler, he would be without heat.  Also, most insurance companies require that the old oil boiler stay in place for that reason, in case the pellet boiler is not operating the oil boiler would fire up and keep pipes from freezing.

ALL pellet boilers will require maintenance and upkeep ~ even the new fancier ones.  Some are more than others, but infinitely more than an oil boiler.

Another model to look at is the Pinnacle PB-150 Biomass Boiler (I have one).  This unit also provides DHW, which not all of them do (though some can, with additional costs).  Pinnacle has had a biomass boiler out longer than any other manufacturer in North America.

http://www.evergreenheat.com/our-home-heating-products/traeger-pinnacle-biomass-boilers/

I am not going to lie, I have had issues, just like everyone else.  However, my seller (which would be your uncle's in NH), has always been there to help and assist.  He will also service the unit if your uncle wishes.


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## rowerwet (Oct 31, 2013)

sinnian said:


> It is unwise to rip out the old oil boiler!
> Also, most insurance companies require that the old oil boiler stay in place for that reason, in case the pellet boiler is not operating the oil boiler would fire up and keep pipes from freezing.


good advice! banks will not write a loan on a house without conventional heat (gas, oil, electric) which will become an issue when it is time to sell. It also is written into most mortage contracts up here, that you keep a conventional heat system.


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## sinnian (Oct 31, 2013)

rowerwet said:


> good advice! banks will not write a loan on a house without conventional heat (gas, oil, electric) which will become an issue when it is time to sell. It also is written into most mortage contracts up here, that you keep a conventional heat system.



Yup!  But some companies *ahem* ***Kedel (for one)*** say to go ahead and rip them out ~ bad advice in my opinion.


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## DZL_Damon (Oct 31, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Yup!  But some companies *ahem* ***Kedel (for one)*** say to go ahead and rip them out ~ bad advice in my opinion.


 
Yes, they asked me if I was to do the same but I had no intention of ripping out a reliable, proven, paid for... yet expensive to operate oil boiler. The space it was in was not useful for me for anything else, and I could not put the Kedel in it's spot as easy since a spot for a hopper was not as convienient. I luckily had a 2nd woodstove downstairs on it's own flue, so I hooked up there instead and ran pipe into the original boiler room. An aquastat in the Kedel will allow the oil boiler to run if:

A.) There is a call for heat (end switch goes to TT on the oil boiler)
B.) The pellet boiler is below 100*F for 10 minutes AFTER that call has come in (ran out of pellets, won't fire, etc)

For the price of 1 additional aquastat and sourcing an old timer from work, that additional security was worth it. As a former sailor, I like to have my contingency plan in place with a back up always ready.

I think Interphase has a common owner with Revision Energy which is a renewable energy company in Portland that does lots of solar hook ups.... their motto is something like "the journey off oil". They even have a Chevy Volt for a company vehicle, so I guess you can see where they are coming from and their mindset.

If this Kedel pans out like I'm hoping it will, I will most likely not purchase a back up oil boiler when I build a new house, just a pellet boiler and maybe emergency electric back up heat.

I for one do NOT have anything to gain from others buying a Kedel over any other manufacturer... I think like most folk I am proud of the model I chose and tend to discuss it a little more since I'm more familiar with mine. I think those ones that go in your living room look REAL nice, along with the BioWINs. I too had a hard time getting MESys to return my phone calls... I was AMAZED at that! I left 2 or 3 messages and emails, took a week or so to hear from someone and they didn't sound too interested in selling a boiler to me as my own contractor. Froling was awesome, but the price tag was a major turn off.

However, to the original poster Look into the fine lines on those NH rebates. I believe the system MIGHT require bulk delivery to qualify. I was considering selling my house recently and the appraiser saw the work I was doing downstairs. He said if I did not have a 3 ton hopper, he would not be able to get a loan for a new buyer unless an oil boiler was there as back up. Just look into those details before you plan. Best of luck!


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## heaterman (Oct 31, 2013)

foamit up said:


> I installed a BioWin 260 in place of another pellet boiler that did not work. The BioWin is wonderful. It has burned 1100 pounds of pellets since OCT 5, with no problems. I keep checking it  and it is always working perfect. Last yr in Oct i burned 1 1/2 ton with the old boiler. It has a big heat load. I estimated to burn 15-16 tons but with the Bio WIN it could be a lot less. I can not wait till it is January to see how it handles the load then. It is all automatic, set it and forget it. Foamit UP.




From what I have seen of them, I think there are a number of very good reasons that Windhager is number one in Europe. As much as I would like to brag on a US made boiler and sell them, they are not even in the same league.


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## arngnick (Oct 31, 2013)

Thanks for the heads up...wind hanger dealer said just that! Get rid of the oil. I am not convinced to go any direction yet. Rebate program seems to be a huge hassle. Plus it requires a 3 ton bin which my uncle does not nessasarily need the extra cost if the bin would wash out most any savings.


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## EcoHeat (Nov 1, 2013)

arngnick said:


> Which am I missing?



You are missing EcoBoiler pellet boilers from your list.  

Any of the boilers mentioned will probably be better than choice than continuing to heat with oil.  Pellets are much cheaper than oil, and readily available throughout New Hampshire.  If your uncle decides to invest in a pellet boiler, then the next big question becomes "what size pellet storage makes sense".  The NH PUC grant program is very generous, so it's worthwhile to consider bulk storage along with the bag-fill options.  

Do you know what the oil consumption over the heating season is at your uncle's home?  And is he heating hot water with the oil boiler?  If so, with a "tankless coil" or an "indirect" tank heater?  The answers to these questions will help you narrow down the size of pellet boiler that he will want, and possibly what other components of the heating system may need to be updated.


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## Chris Hoskin (Nov 1, 2013)

In addition to the very real concerns about insurance coverage / mortgage requirements, there is the practical reality that the contractor who pulls up to the house to deal with a 2am no-heat call is very unlikely to have the right parts on the van like he would if he were there to service a generic oil or gas boiler.  Leave the back-up boiler in place if at all possible.

I would say that a three or four ton bin would be well worth the $6000.00 rebate and, also means that your uncle will not have to handle the fuel.  Seems like a big advantage to me.

Chris


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## heaterman (Nov 1, 2013)

Re: code issues and "backup" equipment.....

I've had several discussions with both insurance people and code officials centered around the phrase "automatically fired" heating appliance. That is the term used in the code books and with the advent of top notch pellet boilers, that term is causing some stress as far as exact definition is concerned. 
Here's a couple cases to illustrate.
We installed a pellet boiler that was not self cleaning and had controls that had to be manually adjusted for on-off, burn rate etc. It was capable of lighting itself after the user provided "input" in the words of the insurance guy.
It did not qualify as automatically fired in their book and the owner had to install an additional piece of heating equipment.

On a recent installation of a Windhager BioWin, the owner wanted to take out the ancient LP gas fired boiler and discard it. The insurance company told him he would have to have another one installed before they approved so the owner told the agent to get in touch with me for details. I explained how the only user input required would be to fill the hopper every 2-4 days and how the boiler cycled on the same thermostat used for the LP gas boiler and he gave it a green light. I also explained that the boiler as delivered was capable of feeding itself from a bulk storage bin if the owner chose to do so.

The key seemed to be when I told him that as long as the boiler had fuel supplied to it (same as any other heating appliance) it would start, stop, and even modulate up and down the same as any gas or oil fired boiler. After that he realized that he did not have a leg to stand on in his argument that the Windhager required "user input".  It was obvious that his frame of reference was a typical pellet stove and that I had to do some "educating" to help him understand that he was looking at a completely different type of equipment.

So, I think the insurance and code people are starting to see that they are behind the curve of what is going on in the biomass/pellet industry. They need to update their knowledge base regarding what some, but not all, of these pellet boilers will do.


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## DZL_Damon (Nov 2, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Re: code issues and "backup" equipment.....
> 
> I've had several discussions with both insurance people and code officials centered around the phrase "automatically fired" heating appliance. That is the term used in the code books and with the advent of top notch pellet boilers, that term is causing some stress as far as exact definition is concerned.
> Here's a couple cases to illustrate.
> ...


 
My experience was very similar. My insurance company gave me a questionnaire for a pellet stove. I told her she really should be giving me a questionnaire for a normal boiler to prove I tested the remote shut off, LWCO, overheat thermal protection, etc. She said our insurance company did not recognize automated pellet boilers yet, but had spoke with the people at the office (my company is Patrons). They said if it came on/off by itself with no user intervention, all I would have to do is prove I was on an automated delivery schedule. They did not SAY 3 tons, but for my area at this time 3 tons is the minimum delivery amount. Since I opted to keep my oil boiler, my insurance record still shows my oil boiler as the primary heat source, and the pellet boiler as secondary. Not a big deal, but I would not be able to remove the oil boiler unless I was on an automatic delivery schedule.

Eitherway, I gave her a lot of information on the boiler and asked her to speak with the insurance companies they represent since automated pellet boilers seem to be making a larger appearance in the Northeast and they will be seeing a lot of them. I suggested they add clearances more similar to a boiler, not a stove along with LWCO, overheat protection, remote shutoff switches, themal cut out switch above the boiler, UL listings, etc. They certainly did seem behind the curve.

As to the original poster: Up to $6,000 for FREE to have a 3 ton bulk bag set up or bigger seems like a great deal! Lucky New Hampshirites...


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## arngnick (Nov 3, 2013)

EcoHeat said:


> You are missing EcoBoiler pellet boilers from your list.
> 
> Any of the boilers mentioned will probably be better than choice than continuing to heat with oil.  Pellets are much cheaper than oil, and readily available throughout New Hampshire.  If your uncle decides to invest in a pellet boiler, then the next big question becomes "what size pellet storage makes sense".  The NH PUC grant program is very generous, so it's worthwhile to consider bulk storage along with the bag-fill options.
> 
> Do you know what the oil consumption over the heating season is at your uncle's home?  And is he heating hot water with the oil boiler?  If so, with a "tankless coil" or an "indirect" tank heater?  The answers to these questions will help you narrow down the size of pellet boiler that he will want, and possibly what other components of the heating system may need to be updated.


 
I would say that he burns around 1000 gal a year. He heats his DHW with a tankless coil. What is the going price of the EcoBoilers?


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## arngnick (Nov 3, 2013)

Chris Hoskin said:


> I would say that a three or four ton bin would be well worth the $6000.00 rebate and, also means that your uncle will not have to handle the fuel.  Seems like a big advantage to me.


I guess if you were going to spend $20000.00 on a boiler then you would be eligible for $6000.00   There are some very competive units that are MUCH less. I think this project can easily be done for under 10K (maybe closer to 8K). I think alot of the boiler companies have taken advantage of the rebate program and priced their units at a premium and make their customers feel like they are getting a great deal. It is hard to justify a $20K when you could install a new oil boiler for $3500 at most. That could buy alot of oil and you don't ever have to handle any ash.

Does anyone know if a stick built pellet bin would qualify for the rebate?


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## Tim04757 (Nov 4, 2013)

arngnick said:


> I guess if you were going to spend $20000.00 on a boiler then you would be eligible for $6000.00   There are some very competive units that are MUCH less. I think this project can easily be done for under 10K (maybe closer to 8K). I think alot of the boiler companies have taken advantage of the rebate program and priced their units at a premium and make their customers feel like they are getting a great deal. It is hard to justify a $20K when you could install a new oil boiler for $3500 at most. That could buy alot of oil and you don't ever have to handle any ash.
> 
> Does anyone know if a stick built pellet bin would qualify for the rebate?






Some of the manufacturers have storage solutions that will utilize a vacuum system to automatically fill the boiler's hopper from a bulk storage bin when the pellet level gets low.  This could allow you to use almost any method of storing the pellets. I am familiar with Kedel's system as I considered it with my install  and can't speak to the others.  I did not go that route because bulk pellets are more expensive than by the pallet in my area.  One of the NH guys would have to tell you if the vacuum system would qualify.


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## Paste (Nov 4, 2013)

When I spoke with Barb, the woman in charge of the NH rebate program, she told me you can build the bin.  She was very friendly and helpful with the rebate process.  And, yes, the vacuum systems do qualify.


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## DZL_Damon (Nov 4, 2013)

I'm 99% sure you can build you own bin, just set it up with x2 4" cam lock fittings for auto delivery (Supply/vent). A slide in hatch high on one of the sides is good for self loading as well.

A local installation guy I was talking to said he made them out of plywood with the Zip system and the green vapor barrier on the inside. He would seal up all the seams with the zip tape. That way the inside was more "slippery" to allow the pellets to slide down the tapered bottom to you auger better (or vacuum system). It also gives moisture protection to the wood if is sweats. Insulating between your studs is a good idea as well especially if the bin is outdoors.

I found standards on how to build your own somewhere on a European site. Other than some metric conversions (unless you're from Canada!), it was pretty well laid out for standards of sloped bottoms etc. Only difference is they use 100mm Stortz connections vs 4" Cam-Locks for standard delivery connections.


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## arngnick (Nov 4, 2013)

Any good leads on a good installer in the Derry, NH area? I was going to go up and install the boiler for my uncle but according to the NH rebate program it needs to be installed by a NH approved Plumber/HVAC guy.


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## DZL_Damon (Nov 4, 2013)

I have no experience with them, but it appears these guys 1 hour from Derry in Peterborough: http://www.frolingenergy.com/ sell Okofens, Frolings, and Kedels. I found their name on the Kedel website and they clearly do the Okofens and Frolings as well judging from their pictures and name. They might be somone good to talk to since they appear to have experience with several systems and could give you some good side by side pros/cons of each system.


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## arngnick (Nov 4, 2013)

DZL_Damon said:


> I have no experience with them, but it appears these guys 1 hour from Derry in Peterborough: http://www.frolingenergy.com/ sell Okofens, Frolings, and Kedels. I found their name on the Kedel website and they clearly do the Okofens and Frolings as well judging from their pictures and name. They might be somone good to talk to since they appear to have experience with several systems and could give you some good side by side pros/cons of each system.


 
I believe I have...I was looking into the Froling P4 and theysaid 14K just for the boiler...I kindly said no thanks.


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## DZL_Damon (Nov 4, 2013)

I wouldn't think they sold anything else judging by their name, but they had pictures of Okofens (same as MESys) and Kedel lists them as one of their dealers. Did they mention anything about that? I too contacted them last winter and was pretty turned off by the same price tag. But this time last year Kedel only had 1/2 dozen boilers in the state online, now I count 60 on the map I think in just Maine. So they were probably not selling them last year, perhaps they have diversified with other brands as well since then??


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## arngnick (Nov 4, 2013)

I am not sure...been taking a breather for a few days on the search for a new boiler. I am quite impressed with the boiler from AHONA, The Herculese Eco. The price tag is very reasonable compared to many other systems. The Biowin is coming in at a close second based on price, since so many people on this forum have been happy with theirs. A small part of me says that it may be an ok idea to just upgrade the oil boiler and supplement with pellets or wood. (the politics of the NH rebate program scares me a bit)


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## sinnian (Nov 5, 2013)

Call Mark Norwood at Evergreen Heat 207-807-6570.  Great guy!  Worth bouncing some things off of him, and if you bought from him, he would set up the installation and be there for any issues or service down the road.

http://www.evergreenheat.com/

Tell him Jeff sent you


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## heaterman (Nov 5, 2013)

From what I see and looking at these things from an installer/servicer point of view, there are 2 brands that are going to rise to the top of the heap in the pellet boiler market here. 
They are Windhager and Froling. The engineering, design, manufacturing quality and control function is second to none and they flat out work. Period.

Anyone looking at a pellet boiler would do well to take a good hard look at either one because you will not be disappointed with the performance. There are very real differences in these two and just about anything else in terms of being user friendly, adaptable to different types of heating systems, long term reliability and durability. Some others I have seen have the same features listed and appear to be comparable on paper but that's where a lot of the similarities end.
Already I read on this forum and others about many makes experiencing control issues, condensation and boiler protection issues, cleaning frequency (daily?!?!?!) and other things that just should not be happening if the boiler was well designed and thought out. That is not how a pellet boiler should operate.

I'm going to open up a couple Windhagers this morning to for their first cleaning and I'm guessing they will each have about 800 hours of operation on them. They have not been touched in that time and there were no failures or other issues. They just did their job and that is how it's supposed to be. I try to get some pics of what they look like after I'm guessing 3 tons of fuel through each.

This of course is just my humble opinion and you are more than welcome to tell me to shove off......


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## Chris Hoskin (Nov 5, 2013)

I can confirm that the NH rebate program allows a site-built bin.  The only requirement is that it be of at least three ton capacity.

Also, just FYI, Froling Energy is a dealer of ours and sells several brands of boilers including Fröling.  Top notch company and people.  The company is owned by Mark Froling and there is no relationship to the Austrian manufacturer Fröling, just a happy coincidence!


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## sinnian (Nov 5, 2013)

heaterman said:


> long term reliability and durability



How long have they been operating in North America?


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## heaterman (Nov 5, 2013)

sinnian said:


> How long have they been operating in North America?



Both are recent arrivals to N/A but the "tell" to me is the total production of the product and how long it has been around in it's current form. Neither of the makes I mentioned are "johnny come lately's" to the pellet boiler industry . 
I don't know Froling's exact numbers of their current model but Windhager has produced nearly 50,000 BioWins and sold them worldwide. 

As far as backing their product goes, all I can say is that it was pretty impressive to me when Windhager flew a tech from Austria here for the sole purpose of doing the start up and commissioning on the first one sold in North America. At that time no one here had much in the line of training and they cared enough about their product to go to the expense of getting someone here to make sure it was done right. 
Only other "furrin" company I've ever seen do something like that in the boiler industry is Viessmann.


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## sinnian (Nov 5, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Both are recent arrivals to N/A but the "tell" to me is the total production of the product and how long it has been around in it's current form. Neither of the makes I mentioned are "johnny come lately's" to the pellet boiler industry .
> I don't know Froling's exact numbers of their current model but Windhager has produced nearly 50,000 BioWins and sold them worldwide.
> 
> As far as backing their product goes, all I can say is that it was pretty impressive to me when Windhager flew a tech from Austria here for the sole purpose of doing the start up and commissioning on the first one sold in North America. At that time no one here had much in the line of training and they cared enough about their product to go to the expense of getting someone here to make sure it was done right.
> Only other "furrin" company I've ever seen do something like that in the boiler industry is Viessmann.



There is a big difference between 50hz vs 60hz ~ so it still remains how these European models run long term.  I would rather go with an Austrian model like the Windhager and Froling, than the Eastern European makers like Kedel, Viadrus, etc. though.


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## DZL_Damon (Nov 5, 2013)

50hz vs 60hz is no big deal... especially if the speed of the fan/augers are being controlled with sine wave chopping like on my boiler since frequency on an AC motor only dictates speed.

Almost every motor that is planned to be sold internationally will have it's speed and amp ratings for 50 hz and 60 hz. Running a motor at 60 hz actually draws less juice at full horsepower is a function of speed.

And just a side note: Kedel has sold over 30,000 units in Europe. Look at the map of the ones connected to the internet alone: http://stokercloud.dk/


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## DBNH22 (Nov 6, 2013)

arngnick said:


> I am not sure...been taking a breather for a few days on the search for a new boiler. I am quite impressed with the boiler from AHONA, The Herculese Eco. The price tag is very reasonable compared to many other systems. The Biowin is coming in at a close second based on price, since so many people on this forum have been happy with theirs. A small part of me says that it may be an ok idea to just upgrade the oil boiler and supplement with pellets or wood. (the politics of the NH rebate program scares me a bit)




I have a Biowin 260 and live in NH too.  I've been burning for about a month now and so far so good.

There are a few things that I would like to point out about the NH rebate/bulk storage option:

1.  I researched the NH rebate program and it did seem as if the program was very political and only set up to benefit certain pellet boiler manufacturers.  I came away thinking that it was basically a one hand washing the other politics and business as usual deal between the state of NH and the Okofen dealers and not really a program designed to bring awareness of biomass heating to the people of NH.  No surprises there right?

2.  On the surface the bulk storage option sounds like a great idea?  A truck comes out and fills you up just like the oil company did before, no fuss no muss.  However, there are very few companies in the NH/New England area that are currently offering bulk delivery. The companies that are offering bulk delivery have one or two choices of pellet to choose from and the cost of the transporting the pellets to your home is factored into the price you're paying for the pellets.  The effect of this is that it pretty much negates your ability to shop around for the best deals on pellets.  Some may argue that even if you're buying buy the palletized ton you're going to pay delivery charges.  That is true but if you have a pickup truck and some time you can eliminate or minimize those costs.  You can also shop around and find dealers with reasonable delivery charges.  I found a dealer in Londonderry, NH that will sell you as many tons of MWP as you want and only charge you a $10 flat rate delivery fee.  On top of that great delivery fee their prices on this particular brand of pellet are cheaper than just about everyone else in the area.

Another thing is the cost of the mateirals and installation involved with a bulk storage solution.  Again there are not many companies in the NH/New England area selling bulk storage hoppers.  One of the few companies that does sell them told me stright out "we cannot sell you a bulk storage hopper because you don't have an Okofen."  The other company had pricing that would have made it a break even deal when the NH rebate was factored in.  I was not willing to spend the time and effort to invest in a bulk storage option to just break even or come out a few hundred dollars ahead.

Some people may say that even with a bulk hopper you can buy whatever pellets you want and just load them into the bulk hopper.  What was the point of the bulk storage hopper then if you do this?

Before during and after the purchase and install of my boiler I haved looked at so many of the concerns regarding pellets, bulk storage, the different boilers etc etc from a million and one different angles.  I have done a great deal of research, spoke to numerous different people and companies and determined that a commerically manfuctured and purchased bulk storage unit did not make sense for me.  Your uncle's situation may be quite different.  I know many people may not wish to be bothered with the storage and loading of the pellets but for me it's no big deal.  i can order 4 tons of pellets, have them dropped at my basement's bulkhead door and have them stacked on pallets 10 feet from my boiler in under an hour's time with the help of my brother or a friend.  After that it's literally a ten minute job to fill the boiler up once a week.

So to sum it all up.  As someone who lives very close to your uncle here in NH I'm pretty happy with my Biowin so far and I don't reccomend the bulk storage.  I suggest that you and your uncle consider all the possibilities of the different boilers and what they will mean as far as costs, lifestyle etc etc before making such a major investment.

Hope this helps.


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## DBNH22 (Nov 6, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Beware!  Some comments are from people who may have a stake in the pellet boiler business.
> 
> It is unwise to rip out the old oil boiler!  While most of these unit seem remarkable, they are not time tested in the US.  There is a difference between the European models and the US models due to the 50 Hz versus our 60 Hz.  If something were to happen to the new pellet boiler, he would be without heat.  Also, most insurance companies require that the old oil boiler stay in place for that reason, in case the pellet boiler is not operating the oil boiler would fire up and keep pipes from freezing.
> 
> ...




Sinnian brings up some very good points.  I left my old oil boiler in place just in case something ever happens to the Biowin.  It's peace of mind.  Also if your uncle ever sells the home the prospective buyers might want to see oil as an option.  Unless the oil boiler is knocking on death's door or there is an issue with space I see no reason to get rid of the oil boiler.

I called the company that carries my homeowner's insurance policy before purchasing my boiler to ensure that my policy would not be cancelled or otherwsie adversely affected.  They said it would not and I had them send me a written document stating this.  Your uncle should do likewise.  I also contacted town hall to make sure that all the permits/codes were in order.

As sinnian said there are some individuals posting on here that are in the pellet/boiler industry.  However I do not believe that there are people on this website seeking to deliberately mislead and lie to others.  I think many of the people on here that are in the industry are passionate about alternative energy sources and the products that they have to offer.  naturally there is going to be competition in business.  This is a good thing.  Ultimately no one cares more about your uncle than you and your uncle so it's up to the two of you to do the homework and make sure you make the right decisions.


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## heaterman (Nov 6, 2013)

You have hit the nail squarely on the head Dana. From what I have heard/read about that program it is targeted to benefit select companies and help them "lock in" customers.  
I've been looking into it because some representatives here in Michigan were wondering what other states were doing and as far as I can see this is a good example of how NOT to do it.


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## DBNH22 (Nov 6, 2013)

heaterman said:


> You have hit the nail squarely on the head Dana. From what I have heard/read about that program it is targeted to benefit select companies and help them "lock in" customers.
> I've been looking into it because some representatives here in Michigan were wondering what other states were doing and as far as I can see this is a good example of how NOT to do it.




Yeah I was pretty dissappointed when I found out about the "three ton bulk storage capacity" requirement.  If the true objective of the rebate was to bring about awareness of alternative (non oil) green, renewable, forms of energy as a means to heat your home and encourage the use of those alternatives by making the upfront costs more affordable while simultaneously stimulating competition and growth in this emerging market then there would not have been a three ton bulk storage requirement.    It's obvious to anyone that's looked into the program what it's all about.


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## foamit up (Nov 6, 2013)

I built a one ton bin for my BioWin out of wood just to try it out. It  actually holds about 1 1/4 tons. I lit it Oct 1 and it is still burning out of that first fill of bin, will have to refill this weekend. I may make some modifications to bin next yr, as pellets do not totally feed to bottom.  I  sell pellets so i get them in bags. I just empty bags into bin when i stop by to check on boiler. If all goes well this yr. i will probably build a bigger bin in the truck body and i won't have to stop in for a couple months.  I can always modify to accept bulk fill in future, however they are more expensive right now in Maine. Foamit Up


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## bdud (Nov 6, 2013)

For me, I saw no advantage in keeping the oil boiler. It took up space, I hated the idea of an oil tank, it needed the oil supply line upgraded to comply with latest codes, I had no intention of using oil again ( I had emergency heat I could use if necessary pellet stove and water heat pump), more plumbing and possibilities for leaks if the oil stayed especially if it just sat unused. I went with the Biowin as I had confidence in its reliability and its track record. A major selling point was the automatic cleaning and pellet feed. I do not need any extra chores so one of my major criteria was that it should not be much more troublesome or upkeep required than the oil boiler, so I have a custom metal pellet silo that holds ~3.5 tons, which is installed where my old oil tank was. The only pellet bulk delivery for me at present as far as I know, in MA, is Sandri ~ 90 miles away. Their minimum delivery is 3 tons and I believe they are New England Pellets. Their bulk delivery price + delivery charge for 3 tons is not much different than the La Crete that I purchased about a year ago. Hopefully more companies will offer bulk deliveries. At present the Biowin says it has used 360lbs of pellets and the ash in the 'wheelie' style collection pan is minimal. Another great plus is how quiet the pellet boiler is compared to the oil unit.


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## sinnian (Nov 6, 2013)

Dana B said:


> i can order 4 tons of pellets, have them dropped at my basement's bulkhead door and have them stacked on pallets 10 feet from my boiler in under an hour's time with the help of my brother or a friend.  After that it's literally a ten minute job to fill the boiler up once a week..



You may do this already, but.....  if you have (or if not borrow, from a friend, which is what I do) a child's slide to a play set, take it off and put it on the stairs of the bulkhead and slide the bags down.  I can get 9 bags down at a time, so I only have to up and down the stairs 3 times, versus 50 times -> with a 40# bag being one of the legs of the trip


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## DBNH22 (Nov 6, 2013)

bdud said:


> For me, I saw no advantage in keeping the oil boiler. It took up space, I hated the idea of an oil tank, it needed the oil supply line upgraded to comply with latest codes, I had no intention of using oil again ( I had emergency heat I could use if necessary pellet stove and water heat pump), more plumbing and possibilities for leaks if the oil stayed especially if it just sat unused. I went with the Biowin as I had confidence in its reliability and its track record. A major selling point was the automatic cleaning and pellet feed. I do not need any extra chores so one of my major criteria was that it should not be much more troublesome or upkeep required than the oil boiler, so I have a custom metal pellet silo that holds ~3.5 tons, which is installed where my old oil tank was. The only pellet bulk delivery for me at present as far as I know, in MA, is Sandri ~ 90 miles away. Their minimum delivery is 3 tons and I believe they are New England Pellets. Their bulk delivery price + delivery charge for 3 tons is not much different than the La Crete that I purchased about a year ago. Hopefully more companies will offer bulk deliveries. At present the Biowin says it has used 360lbs of pellets and the ash in the 'wheelie' style collection pan is minimal. Another great plus is how quiet the pellet boiler is compared to the oil unit.




Does it not bother you that  there is only one bulk delivery company offering only one pellet at one price?


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## DBNH22 (Nov 6, 2013)

sinnian said:


> You may do this already, but.....  if you have (or if not borrow, from a friend, which is what I do) a child's slide to a play set, take it off and put it on the stairs of the bulkhead and slide the bags down.  I can get 9 bags down at a time, so I only have to up and down the stairs 3 times, versus 50 times -> with a 40# bag being one of the legs of the trip




This is my first season using pellets and so far I've ony actually gotten one delivery.  My brother helped me and we got two tons in the basement in 20 minutes by walking them down the bulkhead steps.  I think I may do something like you mentioned with a slide.  The nice thing is that I have a completely unfinished open basement.  I could order 10 tons and get them all down there in a single afternoon on some Saturday in May and not have to worry about a getting another bad into the basement for two years.


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## maple1 (Nov 6, 2013)

Wouldn't it still be possible to buy by the bag/pallet, and just dump them in a bin - if you put a bulk storage bin in?


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## Paste (Nov 6, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Wouldn't it still be possible to buy by the bag/pallet, and just dump them in a bin - if you put a bulk storage bin in?



Yes, I set my bin up so I could accept bulk delivery or fill it by the bag.  The NH rebate brings my system cost down to almost the cost of the boiler alone, so the bin was worth it to me.


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## maple1 (Nov 7, 2013)

Well then, the fears about putting in a 3-ton bin and getting locked into one fuel & one supplier for forever seem kind of groundless.


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## heaterman (Nov 7, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Well then, the fears about putting in a 3-ton bin and getting locked into one fuel & one supplier for forever seem kind of groundless.



I'd take a hard look at the contract before I'd make that assumption. In a lot of cases there are clauses that state the price reduction or financial assistance depends on a given amount of fuel being purchased from a specific supplier.
Maybe not the case here but I would sure want to be certain of that before I pulled the trigger.


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## Paste (Nov 7, 2013)

heaterman said:


> I'd take a hard look at the contract before I'd make that assumption. In a lot of cases there are clauses that state the price reduction or financial assistance depends on a given amount of fuel being purchased from a specific supplier.
> Maybe not the case here but I would sure want to be certain of that before I pulled the trigger.



The NH rebate has no clause concerning purchasing a given amount of fuel from a specific supplier.  I spent less than $400 on the bin and it saved me 30% on the boiler, bin, and install.  From a financial standpoint, it was worth having the bin, and we have the convenience of choosing bulk delivery or bag pellets.


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## DBNH22 (Nov 7, 2013)

Paste said:


> The NH rebate has no clause concerning purchasing a given amount of fuel from a specific supplier.  I spent less than $400 on the bin and it saved me 30% on the boiler, bin, and install.  From a financial standpoint, it was worth having the bin, and we have the convenience of choosing bulk delivery or bag pellets.



Is your bin homemade?


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## Paste (Nov 7, 2013)

Dana B said:


> Is your bin homemade?


its a fabric bin with a homemade base and coupler to work with the biowin suction probe.


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## arngnick (Nov 8, 2013)

Wow so much great info! Looks like the BioWin is worth another hard look with so many supporters. Second on the list IMO would be the Viadrus Hurcules Eco but I have not heard ANY reviews from real users. Of course the last option is to upgrade the oil boiler for 3K or less and install a pellet insert to supplement the oil heat. All is being considered and nothing is being rushed at the moment.  
Since I do most of my work myself I was surprised to hear that the "ballpark" estimate to install one of these BioWin's is over 4K that is with me building the pellet bin and taking care of the supplier hookups. Does this sound right?


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## DBNH22 (Nov 8, 2013)

Paste said:


> its a fabric bin with a homemade base and coupler to work with the biowin suction probe.




Did you design and built it youself?  How much space does it take up and do you have any pictures?

I f I can get a bin for $400  I just might have to take another look at the program.


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## bdud (Nov 8, 2013)

I am not worried about the single bulk supplier/pellet/price, I also can manually fill my silo if necessary. I have spoken a couple of times to the pellet supplier I used for the last couple of years and they are looking into the bulk delivery side. They have also installed at least one BioWin that I know of and had previously mentioned they had 3 lined up, so they might have some incentive to pursue it. They also said they would hand fill the silo for me. I used to use a kiddie slide also, that was so much better and would then stack the bags on reinforced pallets with heavy duty wheels so I could move them if necessary. About 2.5 tons is the max I stored in my basement in bags, I do not have room for much more. With the height and the walls of the silo I can theoretically get more pellets in a given space than I could by just stacking them alone, ~3.5 tons.
In the MA grant it has no stipulation that you use a bulk delivery, it does say you need to have a bulk delivery company willing to deliver to you.


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## Karl_northwind (Nov 9, 2013)

I will second everything heaterman has said about the Windhager BioWin.  I was at the factory in Austria a couple weeks ago and went thru the entire training and setup instructions, and followed the whole fabrication process (all in house, nothing farmed out except the motors and circuit boards)  and was very impressed.  If you are going to go with a pot-style burner I wouldn't go with anything else.  Of course I have a vested interest, as I plan on selling them,  but I think that if you need just a boiler, you'll have a hard time beating the Bio-win.  the bonus is that there is nearly nothing that can go wrong that will shut down the boiler, short of a water loss, a fried main board or a couple of sensors.  these are all things that we installers will have to have on hand.  the day-hopper with add-on bulk storage is an extra nice feature.  it does make getting them in tight spots a little tricky, but certainly do-able. 

karl


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## Paste (Nov 13, 2013)

Dana B said:


> Did you design and built it youself?  How much space does it take up and do you have any pictures?
> 
> I f I can get a bin for $400  I just might have to take another look at the program.


The bin is a 6' cylinder.  I'm working with a manufacturer overseas to build a custom bin that will work better with suction/auger feed systems.  Also, it will have a few other features I wish this bin included.  The auto feed sounds like a small shopvac running for about 30 seconds.


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## sinnian (Nov 13, 2013)

Paste said:


> The bin is a 6' cylinder.  I'm working with a manufacturer overseas to build a custom bin that will work better with suction/auger feed systems.  Also, it will have a few other features I wish this bin included.  The auto feed sounds like a small shopvac running for about 30 seconds.



What happens with a vacuum system if there is a longer than standard pellet that gets stuck?


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## bdud (Nov 13, 2013)

sinnian said:


> What happens with a vacuum system if there is a longer than standard pellet that gets stuck?


I have not had a problem yet on the Biowin. The suction hose is I think 3". I did have a problem with longer pellets jamming inside the Cornvac which I use to suck pellets out of my silo to feed my pellet stove. I used the hose Cornvac recommended and supplied which I think was 2". I swapped this out with the larger Biowin vacuum hose that Marc gave me and I have had no problems since. I would think with the large install base Biowin has, the hose would have optimized for these problems. Maybe American / Canadian pellets are longer? I am using LaCrete.


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## DBNH22 (Nov 14, 2013)

Paste said:


> The bin is a 6' cylinder.  I'm working with a manufacturer overseas to build a custom bin that will work better with suction/auger feed systems.  Also, it will have a few other features I wish this bin included.  The auto feed sounds like a small shopvac running for about 30 seconds.





What other features is the bin potentially going to have and do you have an idea when they might hvae the bin finalized?  I might be interested in one if the numbers work out.  I spoke with Barbara w/ the State of NH and she said that there is no requirement to actually use bulk delivery in order to be in compliance with the rebate terms.  This is good because if I do go the bulk bin route I have zero intention of getting my pellets from one of the bulk delivery companies.  I'd only be doing it for the monetary incentive.  i explained this to barbara and she seemd fine with it.  The one thing that did concern me was that I thought I read something about having the bulk system be within 100 feet of the street or something like that as a requirement.  I will have to go back and reread the terms and conditions of the rebate.


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## bdud (Nov 14, 2013)

MA has a requirement for less than 100' also, maybe it is a bulk delivery / hose limitation. This is from the MA grant doc....
"9. the Eligible Equipment is fed from a bulk fuel storage bin (two tons or greater) and
access to the bulk storage bin (by pipe or auger or both) is located 100 feet or less from
the street or driveway;
10. the customer has indicated that at least one pellet distribution company can make bulk
pellet delivery to the project site;"


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## Paste (Nov 23, 2013)

sinnian said:


> What happens with a vacuum system if there is a longer than standard pellet that gets stuck?



The turbine and tubing are optimized for pellet size and the pressure difference needed to move pellets from point A to point B.  Best analogy I can think of is drinking your favorite soda through a straw.  When you suck the air out of a regular straw the pressure inside decreases and the higher atmospheric pressure on the liquid pushes the soda into your mouth.  Yum!  However, if you increase the straw size, think big Pixy stick candy size, and keep the same suction you only decrease the pressure inside enough to get a small amount of soda.

The biowin is similar to the second example.  During operation, the tube isn't filled with a 'wall of pellets'.  My best estimate is pellets fill only about 1/4-1/3 of the tube ID.  Tube ID is about 2" and the avg pellet is .25x1".  As bdud discovered with his corn vac, a smaller tube size will increase the pellet velocity because it lowers the pressure.  The cornvac backed up because it couldn't handle the increased flow rate.  By increasing the tube dia. he lowered the pellet velocity and equilibrium was reached.


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## Paste (Nov 23, 2013)

Dana B said:


> What other features is the bin potentially going to have and do you have an idea when they might hvae the bin finalized?  I might be interested in one if the numbers work out.  I spoke with Barbara w/ the State of NH and she said that there is no requirement to actually use bulk delivery in order to be in compliance with the rebate terms.  This is good because if I do go the bulk bin route I have zero intention of getting my pellets from one of the bulk delivery companies.  I'd only be doing it for the monetary incentive.  i explained this to barbara and she seemd fine with it.  The one thing that did concern me was that I thought I read something about having the bulk system be within 100 feet of the street or something like that as a requirement.  I will have to go back and reread the terms and conditions of the rebate.



They want the bulk bin 100 ft or less from the road or your driveway because most trucks carry 100 ft of tubing.  When I spoke with one bulk company they said they could delivery over 100 ft.  I'm sure they could fill from your driveway, through your bulkhead, and be less than 100 ft, but since you're filling the bin yourself it isn't an issue.

The rebate was easy and quick; I had my funds in about a week.  I encourage anyone getting a pellet boiler to apply for the rebate.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Nov 24, 2013)

In my opinion 100' should be the maximum or even 60' to the house CAM-lock hookup
I watch a pellet delivery 2 months or so ago.
See Pictures

From the truck, the guy needed to install 4 or 5 top heavy stainless steel hoses - 16' long each
It took at least 30 minutes to set it up and the same time to take it down.
I don't think they are making much money if at all, and a fixed delivery fee is not gone work because each situation is different.

Imagine doing this setup when there is snow and ice and you don't see that stone wall; flat out dangerous.

This pellet delivery concept is all good and well, but just doing the same as the Austrian or Germans are doing is not gone work in the long term for us.
Everything is pocket format in Europe; also the property where a residence is located on.
We will need to come up with our own solutions.

And last week I did see an oil truck arriving while I was at another customer to top off his 275 gallon oil tank. He was in & out in 11 minutes.


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## DBNH22 (Dec 11, 2013)

PassionForFire&Water said:


> In my opinion 100' should be the maximum or even 60' to the house CAM-lock hookup
> I watch a pellet delivery 2 months or so ago.
> See Pictures
> 
> ...




Wow.  An hour to assemble and dissassemble the hose?  Did that include the time to blow in the pellets too?   I assume that while the delivery guy is making his one hour per customer delivery he's left the truck idling so that it can continue to burn gas/deisel.  I don't see how they can be making any money like that either given the small number of customers they probably have.

As you pointed out Marc it seems like doing all that work to get the hoses ready when there's snow and ice on the ground can be pretty hazardous.  I could see a situation where a delivery guy falls, injures himself, and then sues the homeowner.  Who needs that kind of aggrevation?

I've decided that I'm not going to go the bulk hopper/delivery route.  I don't have the time or energy for it at the moment and bag feeding/delivery has been working out well so far.  I have a company coming out tomorrow morning to spray foam my rim joists.  Been looking forward to this for weeks now.


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## DZL_Damon (Dec 11, 2013)

Dana B said:


> Wow.  An hour to assemble and dissassemble the hose?  Did that include the time to blow in the pellets too?   I assume that while the delivery guy is making his one hour per customer delivery he's left the truck idling so that it can continue to burn gas/deisel.  I don't see how they can be making any money like that either given the small number of customers they probably have.
> 
> As you pointed out Marc it seems like doing all that work to get the hoses ready when there's snow and ice on the ground can be pretty hazardous.  I could see a situation where a delivery guy falls, injures himself, and then sues the homeowner.  Who needs that kind of aggrevation?
> 
> I've decided that I'm not going to go the bulk hopper/delivery route.  I don't have the time or energy for it at the moment and bag feeding/delivery has been working out well so far.  I have a company coming out tomorrow morning to spray foam my rim joists.  Been looking forward to this for weeks now.


Sounds like it might be a rookie driver. It takes 1:45 to unload a 35ton trailer of pellets to our silo through 4" hoses using our high volume blower. We've tested the trucks blower and it takes 3 hours.

We use stainless hoses for the pellets, but the vent can be much simpler. I'm actually surprised residential bulk deliveries mess around with stainless. We went through several hoses before landing on stainless... but I'm sure we went through 500-1000 tons on regular "high abrasive material" hoses before making holes. Also, we probably have greatly increased wear rates due to the 60hp blower we use resulting in much higher velocities. I'm sure the normal high abrasion hoses would last a truck like that for a few years.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Dec 12, 2013)

The driver is not a rookie.
I know he is around for many years; ie since they have this truck.


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