# How to release a cut tree that is leaning against one or more other trees



## SAABMaven (Dec 29, 2008)

G'Day experts !

Recently we bought and moved into our first house in the mountains of Vermont.  Some surprises (I think they were just throwing garbage out the windows, if the soil is any indication).  Old mattresses, car seats, old cars, leaky batteries were dumped a bit further into the woods.  Last Summer into the Fall I've been cleaning it up.  I digress, now to the question.  The DPO  (dreaded previous owner), in search of free firewood, felled trees that were in the range of his Home Depot chainsaw.  Some of these trees did not fall but lodged against other trees, and were abandoned.  I would like to salvage these now seasoned trees for firewood.  

They're quite large.  My tree books don't cover the subject of recovering a leaning tree.  Has anyone done this?  Anyone familiar with the technique?  Would like to minimise risk, and learn...

Cheers
Rob in Vermont


----------



## savageactor7 (Dec 29, 2008)

Tree's like that are a very difficult take...and you say they're quite large too. It can be done but that's not a skill you really want to depend on the net for advice cause of misinterpretations. Did you make friends with any tree cutting neighbors? Perhaps you can solicit their advice on each tree.

Over the years we've harvested a lot of storm damaged trees like that... many times it would take longer just to think it threw and come up with a plan.  Good luck SAABMaven


----------



## flyingcow (Dec 29, 2008)

As posted above can be tricky if not used to do doing it. Hire a woodcutter/tree service, someone that is insured. Might be cost prohibitive, maybe they'll give you a quote. Trees do damn funny stuff when in this situation. Actually. not that funny, this can be a deadly deal. Widow makers for sure.
  Another way is to get a relative, one you dislike, that knows it all, and send them in the woods. Just a thought :coolsmile: 


Seriously, this type of situation has the potential to be deadly. For instance, you should know how to do a proper undercut on a tree, especially when not in open area(which I'm sure the DPO didn't do). This will help guide the tree in the direction you want it to go(hopefully). Also the tree will kick sideways if not done right. All kinds of things will happen that will cause serious harm.

Someone with a cable skidder would be a nice set up. Then they twitch to wherever you want them.


----------



## ansehnlich1 (Dec 29, 2008)

Best advice is to hire a professional arborist.

That being said...

these trees are called leaners. They are best taken down with rope, chain, or cable via winch, tractor, etc.

the tops of leaners like to snap, dead branches too, high up, can catch on the way down, you'd be amazed how far a "killer" sized log can fly when a leaner comes down  :bug:


----------



## LLigetfa (Dec 29, 2008)

There's not one pat answer.  Every situation can be different.  Keep in mind as well that a long dead leaner will behave quite different than a recently felled leaner or storm damaged tree.  There's probably a section in your books on "Widowmakers".

I worked as a sawhand on a pipeline hydrostatic testing and repair project where they would test miles of large pipe with high pressure water.  Sometimes when it blew, it could take out huge sections of mature forest as large as a football field.  I've never been in a tornado devastated area but can imagine it must be similar.  Trees uprooted and/or snapped like toothpics, rocks and mangled steel hanging from the trees.  Nothing could prepare you with a howto.  We just had to get in there and get her done.  I had a friend and coworker that was forever hanging up trees under normal circumstances and on this job he made it twice as challenging for me to get in there and save his saw.


----------



## Sealcove (Dec 29, 2008)

I deal with big leaners and snags frequently as part of my work, and most often it is along trails that are not accessible by machinery.  As others have stated, there is no one formula, every situation is different, and it could be very simple of extremely dangerous.  If you are not 100% sure how to deal with this safely and/or are not properly equipped for the task,  I would recommend bringing in some experienced help to stabilize the situation.


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

Chain and tractor/truck to pull it down.  Just had one yesterday do it to me and I need to get back over to it still.

It was a 12" hedge tree half knocked down and leaning against another tree.  I *thought* that if I fell the tree in the direction it was already leaning, it would slide down the tree it was against just fine.  I cut through the trunk (about 3' off the ground) and it slide forward and dropped right in front of the trunk.  Now, I have a loose tree standing against another.  Not safe to look at let alone cut on again.

I will be bring out a chain to pull it down soon.  If you push on the tree, it rocks back and forth.  Not a lot holding it there.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> Chain and tractor/truck to pull it down.  Just had one yesterday do it to me and I need to get back over to it still.
> 
> It was a 12" hedge tree half knocked down and leaning against another tree.  I *thought* that if I fell the tree in the direction it was already leaning, it would slide down the tree it was against just fine.  I cut through the trunk (about 3' off the ground) and it slide forward and dropped right in front of the trunk.  Now, I have a loose tree standing against another.  Not safe to look at let alone cut on again.
> 
> I will be bring out a chain to pull it down soon.  If you push on the tree, it rocks back and forth.  Not a lot holding it there.


yes along strap works great pull it out!


----------



## Malatesta (Dec 29, 2008)

If there not gonna hit the house or anything of great value, drop the other trees along with the leaner if you have Great expirence in felling. 
This can be dangerous and quite tricky cause some trees like to spin or roll . You can have a  Tree service come in and fell the trees for you and buck them yourself if your not sure.


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

I was watching a tree loggers discovery show (Mule loggers maybe) where the guy fell a tree which lodged onto another.  They then decided to take them both down.  When the tree went down, the base of the 3' first tree swung around and clipped the camera man who was standing 90* from the tree and the exact length of the base of the pivot point.  The base took out the camera in his hands I think.

If it was me, I think I would be cleaning out my chaps after watching that video!  He should have bought a lotto ticket after that one.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Dec 29, 2008)

A long tow chain and a car/truck, if it's an option, might be the safest way to get them down.  Just make sure the rope puts you out of the fall radius.


----------



## dj2cohen (Dec 29, 2008)

In my opinion, cutting the tree that is holding the first one is like the Wyle E. Coyote cartoons where you see the coyote cutting the rope holding the 10 ton weight that is dangling over his head.  I think that is not only one of the most dangerous things that one could do, it is borderline stupid.  

I saw the show that bayshorecs is referring to, and I amazed that is was aired.  Sure, it makes great TV, but it shows a bunch of dimwits out there how to do it.  The cutter in that show is just lucky he wasn't killed.  Just pull the thing to get it loosened up.  I think it would be a great idea if one could find a quick release mechanism to put into the strap/chain/rope that is being used to pull with.  One never knows where that leaning tree is going to decided to go and I would not want to be in a truck or on a tractor and be pulled into Godknowswhat when that sucker takes off.

Just my two cents worth....


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

Good point on the quick release and having a tree pull YOU where it wants to go after it falls.  I guess even a 5 ton tractor would get man handled by the 10-15 ton tree going down where it wants.  I never really thought about that as they have always pulled straight out for me in the past.  Realize something new everyday...

I guess the moral of the story is, try not to take a tree that is going to lean onto another tree without clearing the path.  If it is already leaning, spend some time thinking about what to do before starting up the saw.  A 15 ton baseball bat swinging at you will certainly send you into left field and ruin your day.

The risks we take to save a few hundred bucks on heating with wood...Maybe I'm not that smart after all!


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

You pull from the bottom of the tree the only place for the tre to fall is stright down.(in less your working on a cliff)


----------



## dj2cohen (Dec 29, 2008)

bayshorecs, 

I've never had one go wacky on me either but I am a paranoid person.  I am still looking for a good quick release mechanism that I do not have to take a second mortgage to afford.  I will find one eventually.


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

Not always.  The top could slide down the trunk of the one it is leaning against and pivot to a side pulling you with it.  Especially if the one it is leaning against doesn't have a straight trunk.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> Not always.  The top could slide down the trunk of the one it is leaning against and pivot to a side pulling you with it.  Especially if the one it is leaning against doesn't have a straight trunk.


the only problem with that i see is your already strap to the heavy end everything has to follow that wheater there is limbs other trees or what ever there is.  the tree will stay with the trunk or snap off witch ever have a long enough strap to keep you away from it. the strap will break before it moves your truck! I have snap my strap a few times


----------



## LLigetfa (Dec 29, 2008)

If you have the pulling power, you're likely set.  One trick is to wrap the chain or choker around the tree in such a way that it rotates the tree and it will clear the stump and come out of the other tree easier.  Old skidder/beachcombers trick.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

chains are not a good idea when they break it becomes very dangerous!


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

Most "farmer types" around here use cables or chains when pulling things.  Not too likely that a chain will snap (your are right if it does, LOOK OUT!).  Understanding (or trying to understand) the forces and leverage being applied when pulling on the tree needs to take place first before cutting.  You will be on borrowed time if you just cut and see what it does.  That mule loggers show shocked me into thinking about how fast and far those trees can move.  Of course we all *know* the are dangerous and can move in wierd directions, but seeing that was a real eye opener.  That tree swung about 120* degrees in a 100' radius in about 1-2 seconds.  If you were standing in the way, there is nothing you could do.


Either way, just be careful!  We are all saying the same thing.


----------



## Malatesta (Dec 29, 2008)

Well cutting down trees is one of the most dangerous professions in the world . Like i said if your not Greatly expirienced in felling or removals.
Just hire a professional tree service , one thats insured and let them drop the trees togehter.

The tree thats a leaner is gonna fall reguardless of how you pull it from the bottom,when  you release that energy it could kick back,spin or roll. 
I say have a pro drop them both.

They may even want to climb the tree its leaning against,bull rope the leaner at the top ? and pull it away to a safe target area.

Its not dumb to drop 2 trees at one time, professional loggers do it all the time. Thats why  Tree work is one of most dangerous jobs in society.
The camera man had no business being anywhere close to that worker.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

I can tell you there isnt any famers around here that snach a tree a car out of the ditch ect. because when that chain breaks and there is someone aroud it is like a cannon shot people have been kill even with through a wind sheild.Most people around here, are or was a farmer at on point unless you live in a bigger city.Chains are use for dragging not snaching


----------



## Malatesta (Dec 29, 2008)

smokinj said:
			
		

> I can tell you there isnt any famers around here that snach a tree a car out of the ditch ect. because when that chain breaks and there is someone aroud it is like a cannon shot people have been kill even with through a wind sheild.Most people aroun here, are or was a farmer at on point unless you live in a bigger city.Chains are use for dragging not snaching



Not to mention most farmers dont have teeth cause of this LOL its put some teeth out :lol:


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

Woodcrib said:
			
		

> smokinj said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol


----------



## dj2cohen (Dec 29, 2008)

Woodcrib said:
			
		

> The camera man had no business being anywhere close to that worker.



That is exactly our point.  The camera man was nowhere close to that worker.  The camera man was about 20' behind the butt end of the leaning tree.  No one had any idea that the thing would swing around like it did.


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

No doubt the camera man was in the wrong place.  The work was at least on the right side of the tree so he was not in the danger zone.  If I recall, the other workers said no way to cutting the 2nd tree based on how it was leaning.  But, Joe Cool decided he could do it while the other stood back and watched saying he was crazy.

The camera man was going for a shot and didn't realize what the tree could do and no one stopped him from being there.  Blame all around on that one!

Good advice though.  If you have a big tree that you can't safely fell, let the pros do it.  I wouldn't try to cut one near a power line either.  When the little voice in you says "Bad Idea!", listen to it!


----------



## LLigetfa (Dec 29, 2008)

Even D8 dozers I worked around have a tail chain on the end of the winch cable.  I've yet to see any winch that is 100% chain.  Those that put a chain between two pieces of equipment and then take a run at it, earn their Darwin Award.


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

smokinj said:
			
		

> I can tell you there isnt any famers around here that snach a tree a car out of the ditch ect. because when that chain breaks and there is someone aroud it is like a cannon shot people have been kill even with through a wind sheild.Most people around here, are or was a farmer at on point unless you live in a bigger city.Chains are use for dragging not snaching



Most farmers around here head to the shed, find the first thing laying around to use (chain, cable, strap, etc) and give it a try.  Not saying that is a good idea, just what seems to happen.

Also, I don't think "popping" the chain or any cable/strap is a good idea.  Hook up, take the slack out and pull.  If it doesn't move, try a new angle.  Getting a running start and yanking on it is a good way to break the cable/chain/truck/hitch/etc.  

For example, say the truck can tow 3,000 lbs.  That is pulling a constant 3,000 lbs.  Getting a running start (say 3mph) on the slack until it hits full load on that 3,000 lbs is the equal to much more weight/stress on all of the equipment involved.

Maybe I will try to figure out the calcs...


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> smokinj said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok I under stand what your saying, but if i ever got caught snatching with a chain my dad would have beat me with that chain until it broke on me! (lots of accdents  in the 78's blazard pulling people out ditchs) and if you use the strap to drag with then the strap wears into


----------



## billb3 (Dec 29, 2008)

I just had a double leaner: red oak snapped about 10 feet up, grabbed a pine tree on its way down about 10 feet up, and both wedged into a hemlock with two tops fork. Storm damage. Interesting mess. Not much  room to work. 
With a 28 foot ladder I was able to cut the leaners close to the fork and then with a long pole wedge the trunk of the leaner away from the fork of the hemlock. Cutting away the excess meant I could do it by hand rather than try to use a truck or tractor to pull. 
I'm not a fan of using equipment like vehicles to pull leaners out, they can roll and do unexpected damaging things.
Even with using a pole for leverage I left myself plenty of running room for rolling. Either from its own weight/mass or from skipping down other branches.

I had to spend a whole Sunday afternoon cleaning up all the widowmakers before I could even get the ladder up into the mess and start working on the fork.
Lots of hand cutting with a bow saw and pull back saw. They come in handy.


Chains and cables have pull ratings.
If you don't know what a cable or chain is rated for don't use it.

One of the first videos they often show inductees in the Navy or Coast Gaurd is someone getting cut in half by a parting big ship rope.


----------



## dj2cohen (Dec 29, 2008)

That even sounds like a huge mess Bill, let alone to see it.  Glad it all went well and you are here to tell us about it.


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

bayshorecs said:
			
		

> smokinj said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I *think* these are the calcs not taking into account friction (which would increase the numbers):

For the car from 0 to 3mph in 1 second test:

Vo = Starting speed = 0
Vf = Ending speed = 3mph (1.341 m/s)
m = Weight=3,000 lbs (1360 kg)
t = 1 second

a = (Vf - Vo)/t
a = (1.341m/s - 0)/1s
a = 1.341 m/s^2

F = m * a
F = 1360 kg * 1.341m/s^2 = 1823N=409pounds-force=409 ft/lbs of torque to get the car moving to 3mph in 1 second from a dead stop

Using a 30,000 tree makes it around 4100 ft/lb of torque to get the tree moving to 3mph in 1 second from a dead stop

Don't know about you, but 4100 ft/lb of force in 1 second on any cable/chain/hitch/etc is a lot.

Now if you knew the tensile strength of the cable/strap/chain you are using, you could figure out what the breaking point is.

Hope this is right.  It has been a long time since I did any physics!


----------



## Malatesta (Dec 29, 2008)

[quote author="billb3" date="1230591223"]I just had a double leaner: red oak snapped about 10 feet up, grabbed a pine tree on its way down about 10 feet up, and both wedged into a hemlock with two tops fork. Storm damage. Interesting mess. Not much  room to work. 
With a 28 foot ladder I was able to cut the leaners close to the fork and then with a long pole wedge the trunk of the leaner away from the fork of the hemlock. Cutting away the excess meant I could do it by hand rather than try to use a truck or tractor to pull. 
I'm not a fan of using equipment like vehicles to pull leaners out, they can roll and do unexpected damaging things.
Even with using a pole for leverage I left myself plenty of running room for rolling. Either from its own weight/mass or from skipping down other branches.







Bill i hope you were tied in with saddle and safety lines  ??? ,this is my point ladders and tree's dont mix . 28 ft in the air and no safety lines, lanyard ? Bill supose the tree give way when your on the ladder or the ladder gives way.

I am glad everything went well for you but your very lucky no one or yourself got hurt.


----------



## Malatesta (Dec 29, 2008)

dj2cohen said:
			
		

> Woodcrib said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thats my point ,probably unprofessional or beginers. No one should be in the circular radius of the height of the tree be felled.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

Woodcrib said:
			
		

> dj2cohen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok, can you or do you know a quick way to tell how far the tree might land?


----------



## Malatesta (Dec 29, 2008)

Well there many different ways to determine a trees height  1st.

There are various tools and instruments to help determine a tree's height. One very handy field technique is the stick method. Hold a straight stick such that the distance from your eye to your hand equals the distance from your hand to the top of the stick. Hold your arm horizontally and the stick vertically. Walk forward or back until the distance from your hand to the top of the stick is proportional to the distance from the felling cut to the top of the tree. This will be the approximate point where the top of the tree will land. If the tree is not truly vertical and/or the ground is not level, adjustments need to be made. Adjustments need to be made for sloping grades and you must be able to see the true top of the tree.


Another similar measuring method takes place off to the side of the tree and back so you can see the top of the tree. Using the stick, held at arm's length, measure the height of the tree and rotating the stick parallel to the ground, notice where the top of the tree will land.


No matter what method you use, you must use it regularly in order to learn how to use it well and correct for the variables, especially in tight situations.


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

Most large trees around here are 50-70' tall.  Rare few are around 100'+.  I at least double that when planning the area.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 29, 2008)

Woodcrib said:
			
		

> Well there many different ways to determine a trees height  1st.
> 
> There are various tools and instruments to help determine a tree's height. One very handy field technique is the stick method. Hold a straight stick such that the distance from your eye to your hand equals the distance from your hand to the top of the stick. Hold your arm horizontally and the stick vertically. Walk forward or back until the distance from your hand to the top of the stick is proportional to the distance from the felling cut to the top of the tree. This will be the approximate point where the top of the tree will land. If the tree is not truly vertical and/or the ground is not level, adjustments need to be made. Adjustments need to be made for sloping grades and you must be able to see the true top of the tree.
> 
> ...


"""Hold your arm horizontally and the stick vertically. Walk forward or back until the distance from your hand to the top of the stick is proportional to the distance from the felling cut to the top of the tree. This will be the approximate point where the top of the tree will land""" Very good i use this on every tree I fell and it works well good to know this before you get started! Iam Impressed! people think iam crazy when i do this but it is on the money!


----------



## bayshorecs (Dec 29, 2008)

Woodcrib said:
			
		

> Well there many different ways to determine a trees height  1st.
> 
> There are various tools and instruments to help determine a tree's height. One very handy field technique is the stick method. Hold a straight stick such that the distance from your eye to your hand equals the distance from your hand to the top of the stick. Hold your arm horizontally and the stick vertically. Walk forward or back until the distance from your hand to the top of the stick is proportional to the distance from the felling cut to the top of the tree. This will be the approximate point where the top of the tree will land. If the tree is not truly vertical and/or the ground is not level, adjustments need to be made. Adjustments need to be made for sloping grades and you must be able to see the true top of the tree.



Nice trick using similar triangles.  Never thought of that.  Thanks!


----------



## LLigetfa (Dec 29, 2008)

You can also measure the height with your hand or any sized stick at arm's length and then just rotate your wrist 90 degrees, and that becomes the horizontal distance.


----------



## SAABMaven (Dec 30, 2008)

Folks,

Thanks so much for your wisdom and experience.  Perhaps the DPO was wise to simply leave the leaner alone, for bats to eventually nest in the holes that develop in the wood 

Actually _did _contact a couple of tree firms.  One showed up and the amount of money that I was quoted, would buy me two cords of seasoned maple, split & delivered.  I'll have another look and report on this thread, how it goes.

Cheers !
Rob


----------

