# Garden - tomato seedlings too big?



## Nelson (Apr 24, 2015)

I know there are a few gardeners on here so hoping for some insight.

This is my first year starting tomatoes from seed. I think I may have started them too early.  I'm still a few weeks away from putting them in the beds and I'm worried that they are too big. Thoughts???


----------



## DBoon (Apr 24, 2015)

Well, I hope you really like tomatos - that's a lot of plants. 

These are sized to go in the ground now...but if you have another five weeks, I would try to find some half gallon pots to repot them in.


----------



## Nelson (Apr 24, 2015)

lol, i know. I wasn't sure how successful I was going to be so, I planted extra. I have about 6 or 7 varieties in there as well - again, just testing them out to see which we like best. Most will be canned...

I'm thinking i'm only 2-3 weeks away from getting them in the ground. Soil temps around here are already in the mid-50s. I plan on planting them deep as well. I thought about milk jugs but I don't have space for that under the lights and we don't have any good windows that get a good amount of sun. 

At this point, I will have to let them go and hope for the best!


----------



## Mellery (Apr 24, 2015)

Great job, Nelson! Over the years, I have learned plants are so incredibly forgiving, flexible and malleable, you'll be fine waiting out the 2-3 weeks IMHO

BTW I love tomatoes, I envy you right now.


----------



## Nelson (Apr 24, 2015)

Thanks! I'm hoping you're right and I think you are. I learned my lesson - I don't need to start the seeds until the start of April! Kept reading 8 weeks but I think 6 would have been just fine.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Apr 25, 2015)

It's been a rough spring.  I just saw the first asparagus spear poke through and my rhubarb I'd only a couple inches high.  I'm usually harvesting both full scale in early may.

I also try to get my garden in by now.  This morning it is below freezing.

I'd search for some bigger pots and start stressing the stalks so they thicken up and don't blow over in a heavy wind.


----------



## semipro (Apr 25, 2015)

You have so many.  Could you plant some now and take the chance of a freeze?  If they don't freeze then you have a head start on early tomatoes.  If they do freeze you have plenty of spares.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Apr 25, 2015)

Don't forget to bury them deep.  Tomatoes will root from the stalk so you can get a killer root base.


----------



## Ambient (Apr 25, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Don't forget to bury them deep.  Tomatoes will root from the stalk so you can get a killer root base.



Tomatoes will establish a "killer root base" but only if your soil will sustain the roots.  The soil structure will dictate how deep you can plant them.  If you go too deep they will actually suffocate for the lack of oxygen, too much water and the inability to take in available nutrients.  

After the seedlings are about five inches we transplant them into larger pots usually 3 inch pots, then five and then some get 8 inch. Each time I transplant, I'll pick off all but the top three real leaves, (the first two are just to help in the germination process, you'll notice they become wilted and are prone to disease). I'll bury the plant deep into the new container, the stem will now form NEW roots from the buried stem. I also give them a very diluted mix of fish emulsion, 10%, then increase as needed.  (organic fertilizers won't tend to burn younger leaves like commercial ones will).  Each time you transplant the plant will be stronger and have a larger capacity to take in nutrients and water.  Once you transplant this fast growing plant, you need to keep in mind you trained it to like those feedings, continue to feed them AFTER you plant them outside.

Some times weather plays havoc with our intended plantings living so far up north.  You'll want to 'harden' them off, transitioning from inside to outside for a week or so. Be prepared if they are really large by this time to plant them on an angle, instead of just deep down in a hole.  Laying them down in a trench so that the entire root mass is within the useful nutrient zone, and is warmer, will pay dividends.  This is searchable BTW: "Planting tomatoes on an angle".  When you plant them on a angle thier profile above the soil is much smaller and you can create a temporary grow tunnel or use five gallon buckets, empty 4 or 5 gal water jugs with the bottom cut out, or stakes and burlap: to protect them over night if it's still a bit too cold out.  

Good luck!


----------



## Nelson (Apr 25, 2015)

Thanks everyone. I actually built 18" high raised beds this year. Our soil is rather heavy (clay) and not very deep so I needed to provide more depth of soil. Just had a nice garden mix soil delivered yesterday and will be filling the beds today. I like the idea of putting a few of the plants out a little earlier and taking a chance on the frost. I have a few to spare. 

Thanks again for all the comments/suggestions!


----------



## sloeffle (Apr 25, 2015)

If you are worried that they will be too big by the time you get them outside. What about building a temporary plastic tunnel out of PVC drain pipe and plastic ? When the weather warms ups, you can just remove the tunnel from where you planted them.


----------



## semipro (Apr 25, 2015)

Along the same lines I'm giving these a try for the tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant I've already planted a month before the last frost date. 





http://www.wall-o-water.com/


----------



## begreen (Apr 25, 2015)

No problem at all. When you are ready to plant in the outdoor bed remove all of the bottom leaves below the top 6-8". Then dig a deep trench about 8" deep so that you can lay down the plant horizontally. Cover with soil all but the last 6-8" of the plant. The buried stem will sprout roots and this will strengthen the plant. The plant will straighten out and grow vertically within a week or so. The increased root mass strengthens the plant allowing it to pick up more nutrients from the soil, be more wind resistant and support a larger plant. I've been planting my tomatoes like this for many years.


----------



## Nelson (Apr 25, 2015)

The water "shield" looks pretty interesting. Where did you pick those up?

Good to know begreen! I have 18" of good garden soil in the beds. I was thinking just digging down 8-10" and planting them straight up and down. Would leave ~8-10" of plant above ground. I'm thinking this will work. I have read about the trench idea but I'm afraid of breaking the stem!


----------



## begreen (Apr 25, 2015)

I have never broken a stem. Just don't force it. Maybe try both ways and see if one works better than the other? Look this up, you'll find plenty of examples. Here's one:
http://blog.diynetwork.com/maderemade/how-to/plant-tomatoes-in-trenches-for-better-results/


----------



## Nelson (Apr 25, 2015)

I like the idea of trying both ways. Will be a good experiment!

I've been using guidance from the Vegetable Gardeners Bible. Great book - is my first season so won't know until fall whether the tips and tricks in the book were beneficial. So far, it's been a great read.


----------



## billb3 (Apr 26, 2015)

+1 on the  half gallon pots
you could slow them down by lowering temps like  greenhouses do but that also works a little better with younger starts.

I started in early February one year and ended up in 5 gallon pails and lots of fluorescent tube grow lights 
Put them out  right after Memorial Day and they all sunburned and set them back several weeks- so I highly recommend when you do get them outside to either rig up a shade cloth for a week  or keep them in the shade somehow as they transition from artificial light to direct sunlight.


----------



## Whitepine2 (Apr 28, 2015)

begreen said:


> No problem at all. When you are ready to plant in the outdoor bed remove all of the bottom leaves below the top 6-8". Then dig a deep trench about 8" deep so that you can lay down the plant horizontally. Cover with soil all but the last 6-8" of the plant. The buried stem will sprout roots and this will strengthen the plant. The plant will straighten out and grow vertically within a week or so. The increased root mass strengthens the plant allowing it to pick up more nutrients from the soil, be more wind resistant and support a larger plant. I've been planting my tomatoes like this for many years.


This is the only way to go with long stems been doing this for 40+ years,you get more root and they 
grow faster and hardy.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 4, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Don't forget to bury them deep.  Tomatoes will root from the stalk so you can get a killer root base.


Yup. Break off the bottom set of leaves and plant them up to the next set is good draining soil. Mulch well after planting- reduces the need for watering, reduces weeds, and regulates soil moisture to prevent blossom end rot.

I plant less every year- I get 10-15# or so off each plant, so lots of sauce making and canning.


----------



## johnpma (May 4, 2015)

healthy looking plants nice job.....I lost all my tomato plants to blight last year which was very discouraging as they were started from seed and look healthy almost all season. Happened quick and uncontrollably


----------



## Whitepine2 (May 5, 2015)

johnpma said:


> healthy looking plants nice job.....I lost all my tomato plants to blight last year which was very discouraging as they were started from seed and look healthy almost all season. Happened quick and uncontrollably


Don't plant in the same place move to different place,don't plant near potatoes as they blight easy.
If it's a damp summer they will tend to blight more and don't water leaves this can cause the blight as well.We sprayed copper sulfate on taters have not used on tomatoes but there might be something
better now I know some don't like to spray and dust but better than watching them wilt,another thing
plant a wilt resistance verity this will help as well.


----------



## semipro (May 6, 2015)

Nelson said:


> The water "shield" looks pretty interesting. Where did you pick those up?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-Pack-Gre...1&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=190804483935&rt=nc
So far so good.


----------



## johnpma (May 6, 2015)

Whitepine2 said:


> johnpma said: ↑
> healthy looking plants nice job.....I lost all my tomato plants to blight last year which was very discouraging as they were started from seed and look healthy almost all season. Happened quick and uncontrollably
> Don't plant in the same place move to different place,don't plant near potatoes as they blight easy.
> If it's a damp summer they will tend to blight more and don't water leaves this can cause the blight as well.We sprayed copper sulfate on taters have not used on tomatoes but there might be something
> ...


Good info thanks. We had very wet soil and a lot of rain in June and July with very few hot days. Was going to look into a spray of some sort or a dust if we have another wet summer. However I've already tilled twice and the garden is drying out nicely


----------



## semipro (May 6, 2015)

johnpma said:


> However I've already tilled twice and the garden is drying out nicely



I used to till -- stopped about 4 years ago.  I doubt I'll ever go back.  I just keep adding organic matter as mulch and the soil and critters living there are loving it.  
http://www.no-dig-vegetablegarden.com/no-till-gardening.html

I rarely dig without finding many earthworms.  Since I decided not tot chop them up with a tiller anymore they have agreed to till for me. And no, halved worms don't grow into two worms. 
http://www.livescience.com/38371-two-worms-worm-cut-in-half.html


----------



## johnpma (May 7, 2015)

We till everything under at the end of the season. I'm sure the no till method works over a period of time but in my situation where my soil is rich and dense I like to till the compost into the soil to establish some underground nutrition as well. I'm sure the no till method works though quite well. Just look in the woods on new growth under trees like oaks, and maples that have lost years and years of leaves


----------



## semipro (May 7, 2015)

Strangely though, I miss tilling.  I somehow got a lot of satisfaction from turning the garden remains into pretty rows of loose and inviting soil.


----------



## johnpma (May 7, 2015)

semipro said:


> Strangely though, I miss tilling. I somehow got a lot of satisfaction from turning the garden remains into pretty rows of loose and inviting soil.


  I love tilling between my rows and grinding up all weeds down into the earth. My town (which is extremely liberal and spends money on things that don't matter) hired gardening consultants to develop futuristic park vegetation sites needless to say their means of creativity two years later are extremely ugly, and have yet to start decomposing but the "green beans" in town voted it necessary as our town is built on rock and the park needed garden beds to plant in lol


----------



## Mellery (May 7, 2015)

Hey Nelson, it's been a couple weeks and your weather looks pretty good for planting. Have you put them in the ground yet? (looks like you 'might' have risk of last frost yet - you could throw a sheet over them if you see freeze warning)

I like to till but I hate killing the advantageous earthworms in the process.


----------



## Nelson (May 7, 2015)

Hey Mellery-

They are in the ground as of last weekend! so far, so good, on the weather front. Going to dip to 40 for a low early next week for a night or two, but temps look to rebound quickly after that. 

The plants are doing pretty good so far - it's been really windy this past week so they are getting a workout - one advantage of having tall plants is that I was able to plant them pretty deep so they are holding up to the wind/rain.

They haven't really put on a lot of new growth yet but they look just fine so here's to hoping. I will see if I have a pic to post.

Thanks for checking in!


----------



## Nelson (May 7, 2015)

Quick pic


----------



## Jags (May 8, 2015)

Hmmm...is the plant density intentional?  Thats alot of plants for such a small area.


----------



## Nelson (May 8, 2015)

Hey Jags-

Yes, it's intentional. I went with a slightly smaller spacing of 14-15" as opposed to 16" recommendation. The pic might be a little deceiving. It's a 4x8 bed and the plants were larger than I would have liked. I believe the cages are 16" across at the top. It's certainly a little bit of an experiment. I wanted to see how many plants I could get in the bed. To be honest, I almost went three across on the 4' span.


----------



## Jags (May 8, 2015)

Interesting. Wondering aloud...it will be interesting to see if this has any negative impact on growth.


----------



## begreen (May 8, 2015)

Seems like a lot of competition for light and root space once those tomatoes grow to full size. A healthy, full-grown plant can be 4-5ft tall and 24" around. Keeping air and light through the plant is important for its health. This becomes more important later in the season for holding off blight.


----------



## semipro (May 8, 2015)

Nelson said:


> Hey Jags-
> 
> Yes, it's intentional. I went with a slightly smaller spacing of 14-15" as opposed to 16" recommendation. The pic might be a little deceiving. It's a 4x8 bed and the plants were larger than I would have liked. I believe the cages are 16" across at the top. It's certainly a little bit of an experiment. I wanted to see how many plants I could get in the bed. To be honest, I almost went three across on the 4' span.



I plant this way every year, four tomato plants per 4x4 raised bed.  Yours is a little tighter in the long direction.  
There's actually a sound basis for tight planting to reduced weeding and watering.  Look up "square foot" gardening or the "french intensive" method. 
Here's how tomatoes end up when planted tightly.


----------



## begreen (May 8, 2015)

I'm doing this in large rubbermaid containers in the greenhouse right now. Just harvested a nice head of broccoli. But I'm going to have to remove that beautiful plant. There's a couple tomatoes in there too and they are already pushing 3 ft tall. Crowding doesn't reduce watering needs. More competition drains out the water quickly. I have water that tub once a day now.


----------



## semipro (May 8, 2015)

Sure, water per square foot is higher because the vegetation is denser.  However, since the plants shade the soil more with tight plantings, evaporation from soil is decreased and overall water loss is decreased..  That's the theory anyway.   The lack of sunlight exposure at the ground also supposedly shades out competing weeds.


----------



## begreen (May 8, 2015)

I clear out all bottom leaves from the tomato plants once it is approaching full size. This increases air circulation and improves blight resistance. The plants are typically bare stem for the first foot. In our raised beds there are very few weeds. It's one of the reasons we did the beds, no weeding.


----------



## Nelson (May 8, 2015)

Great discussion! Love that pic of the 4x4. Though, it looks like there are more than 4 in there??? Our tomato plants growing up were never that big so I will be very curious to see how mine turn out.

I based off of spacing directions per the seed packet (I didn't have much else to go on as this is my first year - at least in a raised bed). Packets all said plant transplants 16" apart (though, is that from the stem or the furthest leaf/branch??). We will see.

I have also been following guidance from The Vegetable Gardeners bible. In here, he suggests 15" apart down a single row.

I will definitely do my best to keep updating this thread with progress. Love the garden chat and nothing beats real world experience.


----------



## Nelson (May 8, 2015)

Jags, others, what are your thoughts on spacing? Do you have a specific measurement you use?


----------



## begreen (May 8, 2015)

It varies with the plants and how one plants them. I put our roma style tomatoes all in a line 16" apart. They get crowded side to side but it is only a single row so they can fill out sideways as much as they like. Our regular tomatoes this year are spaced 18" in a staggered pattern of two rows. By the end of the season they will be overlapping each other. To keep things healthy be sure to keep suckering under control. Prune back to the main stem at least weekly. Indeterminate tomato varieties like to sprawl, especially cherry tomato varieties like sweet million. Keeping the plant clean and lean also makes picking easier and speeds up ripening.

This pic is from last year early July. There are 4 roma tomatoes in the front right bed with two cherry tomato plants behind them.


----------



## Jags (May 8, 2015)

Pretty much what BG said - but he is by FAR a more experienced gardener than I am.  I plant stuff.  I eat what survives.


----------



## Mellery (May 9, 2015)

Nice raised bed, Nelson   With our raised beds (never veggies as the deer would scarf them up) we have to water every other day in the summer and that's for greenery like ferns, ground cover, etc that deer don't like, but really mostly rock garden. 

Just if you can keep an eye on the plants and soil moisture all will be well. Key (IMHO) is that you visually visit them every single day and stick your finger in the soil so you know what's happening underneath.

Tight or lose planted, you're going to have lots of tomatoes..  so delicious!


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 11, 2015)

semipro said:


> I used to till -- stopped about 4 years ago.  I doubt I'll ever go back.  I just keep adding organic matter as mulch and the soil and critters living there are loving it.
> http://www.no-dig-vegetablegarden.com/no-till-gardening.html
> 
> I rarely dig without finding many earthworms.  Since I decided not tot chop them up with a tiller anymore they have agreed to till for me. And no, halved worms don't grow into two worms.
> http://www.livescience.com/38371-two-worms-worm-cut-in-half.html


I do the same. Never going back to all that work, with lower yield.


----------



## Jags (May 11, 2015)

I tried the no till stuff for the last 3 years (with AP's urgings).  Going back to tilling.  It has more to do with the dirt than not being a success.  I live in an area that has truly "black" dirt.  I am finding that I do need to get it ground up once in a while or it turns to cement (even with yearly applications of compost).  It just is what it is.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 11, 2015)

Jags said:


> I tried the no till stuff for the last 3 years (with AP's urgings).  Going back to tilling.  It has more to do with the dirt than not being a success.  I live in an area that has truly "black" dirt.  I am finding that I do need to get it ground up once in a while or it turns to cement (even with yearly applications of compost).  It just is what it is.


Well, I have looked for clay deposits for years without success here (mostly sand), so it stands to reason that it would work differently.


----------



## Jags (May 11, 2015)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Well, I have looked for clay deposits for years without success here (mostly sand), so it stands to reason that it would work differently.



I gave it the old college try.  I like the idea of less work.  It just didn't pan out.


----------



## billb3 (May 11, 2015)

Nelson said:


> Quick pic




I never found those tomato cages were good for anything but peppers.But fo peppers they are great !
My tomatoes will get 6,7, 10 feet tall if I don't top them.

Cages or a wire fence ( like concrete reinforcement) with large openings works better for indeterminates that one might allow several central leaders, but for determinates I use old VHF antennas for poles and use garden velcro to attach them to the pole for vertical growth and heavy tomato support.


I'll also stick the snapped off suckers in  some wet potting soil to get them to root and have  some more tomato plants. They catch up pretty quick in the Summer heat.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 11, 2015)

billb3 said:


> I never found those tomato cages were good for anything but peppers.
> My tomatoes will get 6,7, 10 feet tall if I don't top them.
> 
> Cages or a wire fence ( like concrete reinforcement) with large openings works better for indeterminates that one might allow several central leaders, but for determinates I use old VHF antennas for poles and use garden velcro to attach them to the pole for vertical growth and heavy tomato support.
> ...




Love seeing other people's ingenuity.

I use the "Florida weave"- have green garden fence posts permanently driven for the purpose.  http://www.webgrower.com/information/tomato_florida-weave-method.html


----------



## billb3 (May 11, 2015)

Adios Pantalones said:


> Love seeing other people's ingenuity.


tomatoes on wire fence and poles


cucumbers on wire "fence" and T-posts


----------



## semipro (May 11, 2015)

billb3 said:


> I'll also stick the snapped off suckers in some wet potting soil to get them to root and have some more tomato plants. They catch up pretty quick in the Summer heat.


I never heard of that.  Going to have to give it a try.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (May 11, 2015)

billb3 said:


> tomatoes on wire fence and poles



I use that fencing to trellis my peas. cool stuff


----------



## Nelson (Jun 14, 2015)

Well, after a slow start, the tomatoes have really taken off. So far, spacing looks good.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Jun 14, 2015)

Those look great!  I wish mine looked like that.


----------



## begreen (Jun 14, 2015)

That's quite a change for just a month. The plants look happy.


----------



## Nelson (Jun 14, 2015)

Actually, that's just over the past 3 weeks or so - the first 2 weeks they didn't do much - I suspect the soil temps weren't quite where they needed to be. Will for sure wait until Memorial Day weekend next year to transplant. 

Other than two light applications of fish emulsion, it's all mother nature! The warmer, humid weather has really allowed them to take off. I'm out there everyday picking suckers...

Had a few bloosms die on the cherry tom plants but the new ones are looking good. We had a cool, really wet few days and I think that contributed.

Next post, hopefully, I will have some fruit!


----------



## billb3 (Jun 14, 2015)

Usually when they appear to be doing 'not much' they are pretty busy growing roots .

They do look healthy now though. Hope that means tomatoes soon.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Jun 15, 2015)

Sorry, but if those grow like I expect they will- they will be really crowded!


----------



## Nelson (Jul 26, 2015)

Posted a couple of pics in the "Anyone Garden Thread" 

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/anyone-garden.128345/page-7#post-1954727


----------



## begreen (Jul 26, 2015)

Nelson said:


> Posted a couple of pics in the "Anyone Garden Thread"
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/anyone-garden.128345/page-7#post-1954727


I'd add 6-8' stakes and let the main leader continue to grow, tying it to the tall stake. Those plants look like they want to give more tomatoes.


----------



## Nelson (Jul 26, 2015)

Thanks for the advice begreen - I may just let them go now. There are is sufficient support from the plants themselves  as most of the vines are being propped up by other plants. I may try the stake idea though. However, I'm going to need a ladder if they get up to 8" high! What do you use to tie them to the stake? Anything in particular?


----------



## billb3 (Jul 26, 2015)

Nelson said:


> Thanks for the advice begreen - I may just let them go now. There are is sufficient support from the plants themselves  as most of the vines are being propped up by other plants. I may try the stake idea though. However, I'm going to need a ladder if they get up to 8" high! What do you use to tie them to the stake? Anything in particular?



I use the green garden velcro and also will cut the legs of blue jeans destined to be tossed out  into strips to tie with.


----------



## begreen (Jul 26, 2015)

Nelson said:


> Thanks for the advice begreen - I may just let them go now. There are is sufficient support from the plants themselves  as most of the vines are being propped up by other plants. I may try the stake idea though. However, I'm going to need a ladder if they get up to 8" high! What do you use to tie them to the stake? Anything in particular?


Stake them. Once they are full of tomatoes the weight goes up a whole lot. Then then become top-heavy and fall over. One of our plants had at least 7 large 2 lb. tomatoes forming up top. That snapped the plastic brackets and the plant fell down.  I've already had two plants collapse this year. They now have stout 6ft stakes and have been retied for good support that respects the weight they can put on.


----------

