# Who's using all the heating oil?



## begreen (Aug 20, 2010)

I thought this was interesting. It looks like the Northeast is using about 80% of the heating oil consumed in the US. More reason to get those furnaces and boilers updated and kept in good tune. More insulating and caulking!

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=heating_oil_use

By state:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp

As low sulfur oil becomes the norm, will prices rise?


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## Delta-T (Aug 20, 2010)

I have seen this statistic before, and always thought...Wow. What I think is sort of odd is that Manchester NH was one of the first cities to have underground gas lines (not NG, but gas from coal burn off) to power the giant mills and lighting. I do think gas lamps are cool. The house I used to rent in Nashua, NH was a pastoral manor in the historic district. House was originally gas. SOmetime in the 40's they changed over to oil heat and ran all the electrical along the moldings and then installed the electric light fixtures right into the old gas lamps. Every room has 4-5 lamps all along the walls, but none were connected to any wall switches. You had to feel around blindly until you found the wall and then search for the lights. good times. all the electrical outlets were in the floor, and usually closer to the center of the room than near the walls.

I assume prices will rise with low sulfur. We do have the bio-blended oil available around here, I do think that is pricey stuff.


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## btuser (Aug 20, 2010)

I use about 1100 gallons myself, I'm ashamed to admit.  Heating oil will become low sulfur because of the refinery chain, not because its good for the enviroment.   I think its a great idea, because there's some great burners that use it.  You can actually get a clean blue flame from low sulfur heating oil, without the CO problems.  Condensing oil boilers have always had problems because of the quality of heating oil.

I read that low sulfur heating oil (500 ppm) is only about $.02 more expensive than regular heating oil (2000-2500 ppm), and that gains in equipment efficiency more than compensate for the extra cost of refining.  Less problems with the condensate and a better burn.

Here's another good link: http://www.cecarf.org/publications/CECA Low Sulfur White Paper 9-12-03.pdf


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## BrotherBart (Aug 21, 2010)

The refineries have been streaming low sulfur diesel for a while now. De-sulfuring the heavier fraction shouldn't be that big of a deal. Hell, selling the sulfur is a big business for them.  You should see the piles of the stuff out back of a refinery.

Refiners know how to get everything out of the pig but the squeal.


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## Wallyworld (Aug 21, 2010)

Maine is the king of 2oil. I burned about 75 gallons last year in the shoulder seasons. Plan to do the same this year. Lots of folks burn 500 to 1000 gallons though and alot burn oil for DHW.


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## BucksCoBernie (Aug 21, 2010)

Its not me! I only used 40 gallons last winter! Cut my consumption from over 600 gallons the winter before.

Im not surprised by NJ's low #s on the chart...most of the houses ive been to in NJ are gas heat. The funny thing is when I needed an oil fill up I bought it from NJ because it was about .30 cents cheaper per gallon than PA....plus the PA supplier gave me stinky oil (smelled like sewage) and then basically told me it was my problem, not his. He no longer gets my business or referrals.


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## stejus (Aug 21, 2010)

Certainly not me anymore!  I'm in the NE and I used to use about 800-1000 gallons per year for 2 zone FHW heat and Tankless Hotwater in a 2000 sq/ft Colonial.  Now with Stove, Oil usage is around 300-350 gallons a year for Hotwater.   My burner has a Aquastat and the LO settting (for hotwater) was kicking on at 180.  I turned that down to 140.  There's no need to have hot water on tap at 180 degrees.  I figure the oil tech (who i purchase oil from) had it there to use more oil.


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## Hurricane (Aug 21, 2010)

I use about 300 gal per year in the shoulder seasons, in the mid winter the furnace never runs. I cut it in half in the last 2 years, I have been burning since day one in this house but mostly only on colder weekends, now when the cold comes it is 7X24 until winter is over.


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## Dune (Aug 21, 2010)

I use none (zero). Wood heat only!


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## rowerwet (Aug 22, 2010)

I burned about 600 gal a year in my 100+ yr old new englander with blown in insulation, now I burn about 6 tons of pellets for my heat, the oil beast still runs during the shoulder season on Jet A from work. I haven't bought any oil for about 3 years.
two big things about why we use so much oil-
   Old houses, most converted from coal back in the 50's and 60's, I lived in one as a kid that still had the coal boiler fired by an oil "log", you could see into the firebox though a window and see the fire. My current house has the circle in the floor from the coal boiler, the oil beast sits in the same spot now, at least someone converted from the steam radiators to FHW baseboards. I had to cut out the steam pipes, bury the insulation, and then plug the holes in the floor. Thanks to that you have a large distribution network for oil which has high BTU content compared to gas, when it is below 20* and you have a big old leaky house that can make the difference. The fact that most grew up on oil means most new houses get oil as well.
   NG requires you to live in dense population areas and even then some areas charge big bucks to connect or don't allow new connections. Propain is expensive off the truck, compared to oil, even with the new higher efficiency gas heaters, oil is a better bet.

I think we also have longer and colder winters compared to most of the country.


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## btuser (Aug 22, 2010)

Here in the Granite State underground utillities are a last resort.  Also, most new construction is in suburbs/bedroom towns that have a 2 acre lot minimum that makes it very expensive for NG because of the low number of houses passed.    A lot of homeowners are opting for propane over oil because of the rebates for the high efficiency appliances.   Oil companies  don't care if its more expensive in the long run because of the cost of propane vs oil, as long as they keep a customer.     The efficiency ratings are pretty much bogus, not factoring seasonal efficiencies.  

Besides, how much of your bill for NG (or electric for that matter) is acutal fuel and not just the service?


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## Slow1 (Aug 30, 2010)

I was surprised when we move up to Mass just how many people burned oil.  I just is what it is - I'm sure there are good reasons (historically if nothing else) for it.  For my part although we live in a fairly dense area we just don't have a natural gas line available and the thought of giving up the space outside for a propane tank didn't make sense to me... and now how much space to I have used up by my cords of wood?  ok, the logic didn't make sense, but whatever eh?

We switched our DHW over to oil from electric about a year or so before deciding to burn wood.  Still economically it is a better option for us but it means that from a practical sense it is unlikely we'll ever get down to no oil burned in any given year.  I'd like to get a solar DHW solution in place but I imagine that won't be able to cover 100%.

So we've gone from 6-800 gallons of heating oil per year to about 200 which is not too bad really.  Having a very high efficiency oil heating system in place has helped to keep the totals down as well (we replaced the heating system at the same time we increased house side and didn't increase our total burn of oil noticeably).


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## btuser (Aug 31, 2010)

It's the one thing that scares me the most.  What if I can't get it?  I ask people that and they laugh, saying the price will just go up.  Seriously, what if you can't even get it?


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## Slow1 (Aug 31, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> It's the one thing that scares me the most.  What if I can't get it?  I ask people that and they laugh, saying the price will just go up.  Seriously, what if you can't even get it?



That would be a frightening scenario if it were to happen suddenly and one that few want to imagine.  

My best uess_ is that it would take something like a significant and somewhat protracted regional (or wider) war with US involvement to disrupt things enough to actually reduce supplies to the point where home heating oil was unavailable at any price (other than black market).  I'm sure there are other scenarios out there that could disrupt the supply chains but all are highly unlikely (not impossible as some folks would like to believe).  

Even some sort of panic induced supply blip where 'everyone' goes crazy buying oil/gas/etc to stock up in fear of xyz would likely be temporary as most folks have limited ability to stockpile significant reserves (although as a collective we do have amazing capacity - just try to calculate the total volume required to fill up every tank in every car in the USA with gas).  As long as no genius in our government decides to meddle with the markets and put in price controls to limit increases in prices then likely this sort of sudden demand surge could be self limiting by a corresponding price spike as the demand increases proportionate to the supply.  However, don't underestimate the ability of well meaning (or otherwise) individuals in positions of power to screw up markets and give us good examples of "the law of unintended consequences" eh?

"Some day" it may not be possible to buy fossil fuels due to either an exhaustion of supply or (more likely) a regulatory action, but I'll guess that is quite some time away - not likely in my lifetime.  In either of those scenarios I have confidence that alternative energy sources will be there - perhaps not at the same relative cost, but there will be some energy source available to fill the gap and for either of these paths to happen we as a collective will have time to figure it and transition.


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## Highbeam (Aug 31, 2010)

Home heating oil is the same as diesel fuel. If they run out of this type of distillate oil then your transportation system will also come to a screeching halt. No truck traffic= no freight = no food on the shelves at the supermarket. 

Now you are cold but you are also hungry and your life is at risk even if you live in the warm parts of the country.


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## btuser (Aug 31, 2010)

Last Summer my family took a trip to Strawberry Bank in Portsmouth NH.  We stopped at one of the larger houses, once owned by a whaling captain over 200 years ago.  This was one rich dude.  The house was about 1200 sqft total.  One of the small bedrooms had a closet and I asked if that was indeed what it was.  The response from the guide was that it wasn't just a closet, but a pie chest.   In the fall extra pies were made whenever the oven was hot and then placed in the cubbord to freeze untill Christmas.  THIS WAS A CLOSET ON AN INSIDE WALL OF A BEDROOM AND IT WAS COLD ENOUGH TO FREEZE PIES!

People were tougher back then.  After that trip I came home and turned my thermostats to 60 degrees.  If I (or we) want it warmer than that, there's a big ol' pile of wood right there!


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 3, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I thought this was interesting. It looks like the Northeast is using about 80% of the heating oil consumed in the US. More reason to get those furnaces and boilers updated and kept in good tune. More insulating and caulking!
> 
> http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=heating_oil_use
> 
> ...



In 2002 i changed my heating system completely away from oil to 2 domestic fuels coal and wood. Iv saved $20,000 on heat since then and my money stays in my hometown and not going to fund hookers(saw that on the news) for some arab sheik.


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## begreen (Sep 3, 2010)

Nice. That is quite some change.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 20, 2010)

Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.


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## peakbagger (Sep 20, 2010)

With regards to Trump's comment. There arent a lot of alternatives in the Northeast to heating oil. Wood is great for supplemental heat but when someone goes on vacation (or the bank ends up the with building), there has to be a heating system that can run reliably unattended for weeks at a time. Natural Gas infrastructure is too costly to install due to deep frost and lots of ledge. Until the new gas lines were installed from New Brunswick and Quebec 15 years ago, northern NE was at the end of the gas line and everytime the southern NE got cold, the northern NE utilities had to run peak storage plants (very costly ) to keep the line from running out. LP gas is made from oil so that isnt a good standby. The automated wood pellet systems are still proving themselves to be reliable for unattended service and costs double that of a heating oil system. Ground source heat pumps have some potential, but in most areas the cost is 4 to 5 times that of heating oil and even though they dont use a lot of electric power, the yearly maintenance bills are a big cost of owning as there are few firms that will service them and many parts that can and do go wrong. 

So barring electric resistance baseboard, I dont see a lot of choices, given that in cold weather, a house can cool down to the point where pipes start freezing in less than 24 hours.


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## Highbeam (Sep 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.



That's just silly. I fully expect that in ten years I will be filling up my diesel truck's fuel tank at a similar price to today. Look back in time. Fuel has always (last 60 years at least) been available and always at about the same price, don't forget inflation. There is nothing wrong with oil heat until something better comes along. I actually like electric heat as a backup due to low intitial cost, almost zero maintenance, and no CO leak possibilities. 

Don't be fooled into thinking that petroleum will just go away. There's plenty of waste that will be reigned in before we are unable to fill our tanks or heat our homes. 

It's like when they told us that the metric system would take over way back in the 60s.


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## North of 60 (Sep 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.



OK, you tell me what else the hospitals/ commercial institutes and old folks can use around here. All the transport trucks that will deliver our magic fuel here will be solar? If you are driving a car and its not electric then you are burning OIL. Look outside out of your shell and there is actually a world out there.


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## Tom Pencil (Sep 20, 2010)

We burn only 325-350 gallons of fuel oil per year down from 950 since putting in our pellet stove.  I did call my fuel supplier and asked about home heating price and was given the price of $2.749 per gallon.  Now add the sales tax of 7.0% on top of that and that makes the heating oil more than diesel fuel ($2.89) around here.  Normally its about 15-20 cents/gallon less than diesel.


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## btuser (Sep 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.





Get me a natural gas pipe to my house and I'll throw out my 1yr old oil burner.  Till then there isn't another serious alternative for me.  Geothermal would be about 50k, and at $.18/KW it would take $7.00 oil to pay for it.  Propane sucks, even worse than oil.  Wood pellets are a racket, as anyone buying $219/ton pellets can attest when in 2008 they were closer to $350/ton.  They're not an alterantive for central heat.  Not everyone can use wood either, and unless you get wood for free its doesn't come cheap.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 20, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> trump said:
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This forum is about green alternatives ,doesn't seem like your interested in alternatives ,or at least an open mind about them. 
SInce i saved $20,000 in 8 years by changing to Coal from oil ,imaging what commercial institutions and Hospitals could save ,and even old folks (im not so young myself)unless they are completely helpless could use alternatives.Friend of mine is in his 80s ,says he wouldnt  know what to do with himself in winter if he could not fiddle with his coal stove. I install as well as maintain heating systems in several dozen properties so im not talking from inexperience. I dont know what YOUR alternatives are but i know what 
mine are,and all in my area are cheaper than oil except electric and NG is probably a bit less and less likely to spike overnight like oil can. My alternatives are  Coal,cord wood,waste wood, corn,pellet stove, NG, & LP Gas.  I used to use oil to heat my home and kerosene to heat homes under renovation, now i use coal to heat my home and waste wood to heat homes under renovation,im saving a fortune  plus saving the oil for all you who are willing to pay the price for it.


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## Dune (Sep 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.



I am with Mr. Trump on this. I don't think he said anything offensive at all. I disconnected the relatively new oil burner in my home. In fact, this summer I disabled the storage tank as well. 
Obviously this was a very personal choice, and I am NOT advocating that everyone else must imediately follow suit. However, there are a lot more options than those mentioned by the objecters so far. 

We MUST get off oil specificaly, but coal as well, ASAP. No, oil has not always been available for the last 60 years. Remember '73? In today's increasingly turbulent political and social times the likelyhood of a repeat is far from remote.

Someday in the future, people will look back on this era with great sadness and lack of understanding. We are burning the building blocks of our future. If we manufacture things with oil and coal instead, we can recover at least 90% of the mass through recycling. When we burn it, all is lost. 

Even as we speak, great efforts are being made to increase the cost of burning fossil fuels. How could one possibly delude themselves into thinking that oil will always be cheap and available?


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 20, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

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Ever heard of PEAK OIL ,well its coming to a dealer near you,and when it does everyone will be trying to get off the ship at once.Right after the spike in oil prices in 2003 ,the waiting time for a new coal stoker grew to 2 years in my area due to heavy demand.   How much warning did we have when heating oil spiked up to $4.50 a gallon before?
Next time the price hike will be from short supply and not commodity traders and it will go higher, No oil wont go away, it will just keep taking more and more of your money. Your diesel truck may well be burning bio-diesel in the future. With chinas growth in autos exploding and india, 2 HUGE oil consuming markets i dont see oil prices going anywhere but up.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 20, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

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You've  probably got the best combination already,run that wood burner whenever you can and the oil furnace will rarely come on. 
I use waste wood to heat homes under renovation ,its better than free as i dont have to pay to dispose of it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 20, 2010)

peakbagger said:
			
		

> With regards to Trump's comment. There arent a lot of alternatives in the Northeast to heating oil. Wood is great for supplemental heat but when someone goes on vacation (or the bank ends up the with building), there has to be a heating system that can run reliably unattended for weeks at a time. Natural Gas infrastructure is too costly to install due to deep frost and lots of ledge. Until the new gas lines were installed from New Brunswick and Quebec 15 years ago, northern NE was at the end of the gas line and everytime the southern NE got cold, the northern NE utilities had to run peak storage plants (very costly ) to keep the line from running out. LP gas is made from oil so that isnt a good standby. The automated wood pellet systems are still proving themselves to be reliable for unattended service and costs double that of a heating oil system. Ground source heat pumps have some potential, but in most areas the cost is 4 to 5 times that of heating oil and even though they dont use a lot of electric power, the yearly maintenance bills are a big cost of owning as there are few firms that will service them and many parts that can and do go wrong.
> 
> So barring electric resistance baseboard, I dont see a lot of choices, given that in cold weather, a house can cool down to the point where pipes start freezing in less than 24 hours.



Your right sometimes its hard to find a replacement but,you can always keep your oil system installed and ready as a backup for the less costly but more maintenance intensive methods such as wood,waste wood,pellets or corn or coal. ANd if the buliding is unoccupied you can turn the oil way down and you wont use much. i went from using 2-3 tanks a year to less than 1 tank on a rental thats only occupied on weekends by turning the Tstat down to 55 during the week.


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## North of 60 (Sep 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> north of 60 said:
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Your answer is COAL! Give me a break. Heating is all I do. 23Yrs of it. Show me something that some GREEN engineer has built that I haven't ripped out as it was to costly to run, unmaintainable and plainly didn't work. Your Ideas dont work for everyone. I am happy for you, BUT dont blanket everyone together.  Seems to me you have access to everything.  I gotta go fill up the Diesel generator now. The days will be getting shorter.
N of 60


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## Dune (Sep 20, 2010)

Obviously some of us are in extreme circumstances, yet even some of those may yet have unexplored choices. My parrents are now too old to heat with either wood or coal. A few years ago, I offered to build them a new home, super insulated, with passive solar, and on one level. They declined, and are now selling their farm, with the old ineficient yet very updated home. To me, that is a shame. I could hardly force them though.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 20, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

> trump said:
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Your right My ideas are not for everyone,then again everyone doesn't  live in the YUKON North of 60.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Its a shame people are actually still buying NEW oil burners for their Homes when so many alternatives are available for home heat. DO they really think with a life expectancy of a new oil burner of 15-25 years they will be able to afford Heating oil even 10 years from now? Oil is NOT i repeat NOT sustainable. Iv been getting away from heating oil for about 10 years now in my real estate business, and i have just 1 Property burning Oil still. Eventually i hope to eliminate all oil use for home heat as well as tronsportation.



Gee i sure ruffled some feathers with this post.
I was referring to people in my area who have access to the same alternatives i do,not people living in the frozen north or anywhere else with exceptional circumstances. I hear people complain all the time about the high cost of heating oil, but make no attempt to find a better way.
No i dont think COAL is Green but its an all american fuel and im not funding some Arab sheiks lifestyle. And theres no danger of running out any time soon. As always anyone willing to do a little work will always heat cheaper than the person who just wants to turn up the thermostat now and then.


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## btuser (Sep 21, 2010)

Some people live N of 60, and some people live in Fantasy Land.   Biodiesel right now is a joke.  We're using more petroleum to grow the stock than we get out in fuel.  Ethanol is a zero-gain fuel too, doing nothing but feeding corporate farms.  Maybe soon we'll be using algae-oil and cooking on a parabolic mirror, but how cheap do you think coal is going to be when oil is back to $4.50/gallon.

Come to think of it, oil displaced coal as a cheaper alternative over 70 years ago.  How cheap is it going to be when there is no alternative?  Smoke 'em while you got 'em, becaue coal may work in PA, but that's like someone in AZ complaining that Alaska is behind the curve when it comes to solar power.  It would still come to my house on a diesel truck.


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## jharkin (Sep 21, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
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The problem is that most of the folks researching peak oil believe - and world history would suggest they might be right - that when demand does outstrip supply (any year now) that people will go into panic mode and hoarding/profiteering/etc will bring the whole system down.

In that scenario heating oil will be the least of your worries. You will likely be too preoccupied with more immediate needs - like obtaining food.

99% of people wont see it coming till it hits us like a brick wall. A month after the GOM disaster and they are right back to buying SUVs...


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## North of 60 (Sep 21, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Your right My ideas are not for everyone,then again everyone doesn't  live in the YUKON North of 60.



Your blanket statement doesnt cover many places in your own COUNTRY. :roll:


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 21, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> Some people live N of 60, and some people live in Fantasy Land.   Biodiesel right now is a joke.  We're using more petroleum to grow the stock than we get out in fuel.  Ethanol is a zero-gain fuel too, doing nothing but feeding corporate farms.  Maybe soon we'll be using algae-oil and cooking on a parabolic mirror, but how cheap do you think coal is going to be when oil is back to $4.50/gallon.
> 
> Come to think of it, oil displaced coal as a cheaper alternative over 70 years ago.  How cheap is it going to be when there is no alternative?  Smoke 'em while you got 'em, becaue coal may work in PA, but that's like someone in AZ complaining that Alaska is behind the curve when it comes to solar power.  It would still come to my house on a diesel truck.


===========
Quite a bit of our coal still does go to new england as well as all the way to germany.  actually coal is not my best hope for a sustainable fuel supply. Waste wood is were all the value is for me. I already use it to heat residential housing and i am preparing to heat a commercial building with it. So far i can get all i want and people even pay to get rid of it. Yes i know this is not for everyone ,but if you have access to supply and are not afraid of a little work, i cant imagine anywhere in the lower 48 were this wont work.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 21, 2010)

north of 60 said:
			
		

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Our anthracite coal is shipped all over the east coast and as far as germany. Coal is not my only hope though ,been using waste wood for several years and its working like a charm. fairly widely available in the lower 48 ,have a friend in yellowknife who use oil for heat,im sure theres not as much wood up that far.


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## Highbeam (Sep 21, 2010)

Who ever said that this forum was about "green alternatives" it's the green room. Many ways to be green without seeking alternatives. Coal is not readily available in my part of the country, not even the machines to burn it. Pellets are available at 180$ per ton, our waste wood I guess. 

I don't know if I believe in this Peak Oil theory.


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 21, 2010)

When i first started using wood stoves in an effort to get away from heating oil (just a few years ago) This site helped me tremendously with a wealth of ideas and information on the subject. Its worked out  very well for me and if my success can help someone else save some hard earned cash and also reduce our reliance on imported energy at the same time then i feel i have returned the favor. We can do just about anything we put our mind to,so when it comes to  energy independence, new ideas are helpful, if we just keep thinking of 100 ways why this and that will never work we,ll never get out of this imported  energy hole.


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## North of 60 (Sep 22, 2010)

Now lets all hold hands and Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Seasoned Oak (Sep 23, 2010)

WHen it comes to winter heat ,It seems there's  2 kinds of people here in Pa , The ones with the giant pile of wood in their backyard ready for when the snow flies. And the ones who seem to have better things to do with their time,but every year never fail to sign up for the Heating assistance program where the Govt pays your heat bill. Year after year. Seems like nothing is accomplished but kicking the can down the road another year by paying for peoples heat every year.
In the case where the people are young and healthy i would think the money would be better spent purchasing a wood stove, for these people and let them do a little work to provide their own fuel. At least its only a one time expense for the stove instead of every year paying their heating fuel.
Of course if they are elderly or otherwise disabled it is fine the way it is now, but as it is now there are no restrictions as to who gets this other than income limits. A family of 5 has to make over $40000 a year before they no longer qualify.


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## GlennMike (Sep 27, 2010)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Who ever said that this forum was about "green alternatives" it's the green room. Many ways to be green without seeking alternatives. Coal is not readily available in my part of the country, not even the machines to burn it. Pellets are available at 180$ per ton, our waste wood I guess.
> 
> I don't know if I believe in this Peak Oil theory.



Its not a theory, it is fact based on basic math and its here now.  World oil production peaked around 2005 and we have been on a bumpy plateau at the top since then, we will be at the other side of the production bell curve any day now.  This is well known by our "leaders"  The only reason why we aren't seeing $5 gasoline right now is because our government is killing demand (open your eyes).  start here:  www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net


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## rowerwet (Sep 30, 2010)

PEAK oil meaning we have used up most of it and there isn't gonna be as much from now on I don't buy, lack of supply due to market and idiotic gov policy I buy, but raise the price due to not enough demand and oil that is to expensive to get to now will become oil that big oil can turn a profit on, even at the worst of the energy crisis in the 70's there was oil for sale from the north sea, north slope and the rest of the world, the "crisis" was that one area that produced most of the world oil stopped selling for a while, today there are many more places producing and places that could produce in a short time if the incentive was there. Yes we get short booms and busts in price, it is called market fluctuations they will happen no mater what we do to try to "fix" them.
   For myself I buy pellets as they are made in the US and employ US workers at every stage in the chain, but even "foreign" oil in the US mostly comes from Canada and Mexico, as pipelines are cheaper than tankers, those two countries that aren't sponsoring radical Islam against us with the money we send them...


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## GlennMike (Oct 6, 2010)

look at the chart, nuff said


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## North of 60 (Oct 6, 2010)

Yep same guy who said H1N1 was going to be an epidemic. I can recall that being on a chart too. Since its on a chart it must be true. Some special chart. I made some in grade school. Well if its true we are all doomed as every thing we use every day is related to it. I am not gonna hide in my closet though as there is nothing can be done. The world revolves around it.  Back to the wooden wheel I guess.


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## GlennMike (Oct 6, 2010)

I see you are another one in denial.   Look around, something is going on, here in the USA we are considered to be a "wealthy nation"... Did you know one out of 6 of us are on food stamps?  did you know one out of four of our children are on food stamps?    Think about how long those breadlines would be if it was out in the open like in the great depression.   Skyrocketing unemployment, people recieving benefits for over 99 weeks?  14 Trillion dollar national debt and our states are going bankrupt.  Our banks were bankrupt then bailed, now we have to print into oblivion to cover the losses.  Everything was based on exponential growth, and growth has stopped due to energy constraints.    These are bad problems and we are mearly at the flat peak (since 2005 global production has in fact been flat).  On the other side is a slippery slope.   

Did you know the USA's oil production peaked in the 1970's and has been in decline since then? also there hasn't been a super giant or giant oil field discovered anywhere in the world since around that time and that oil fields start declining in production at about 40-50 years.  All other means of production are just a drop in the bucket. Like I said this is basic math and like you said it is a real problem cause we are all dependent on it for nearly everything.


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## Slow1 (Oct 6, 2010)

As long as oil is the optimal material for [energy | building materials | raw material for clothing | whatever] in terms of overall cost, it will be used.  If/when it no longer is then alternatives will be considered - relative cost of these alternatives will come down and they will become more attractive if oil becomes more expensive.  "Something" else will take the place of it.  This may force a new revolution of some sort - I don't see mankind in general stepping back to the wooden wheel so more likely we'll find ways to move forward - carbon fibre, whatever for materials (carbon can come from MANY sources) - I have no idea what the optimal energy sources will be, but there are many sources out there currently known and well understood.

My opinion is that those who see oil (or fossil fuels in general) as the ONLY possible motivator for an economy and predict surefire doom when supplies become more scarce are taking a very pessimistic and short sighted view of things.  The history of technology shows that we (mankind in general) have proven to be quite resourceful and creative when faced with the necessity to do so.  In some way this could be used as the basis for an argument that a reduction in oil supplies could be a good thing to look forward to - perhaps providing exactly the impetus needed to push us into the next energy and/or technology revolution.  I choose not to fear change - rather see it as opportunity.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 6, 2010)

I think we will always have oil ,but at What price? YOU also have to take into account there are 70 to 80 Million new people added to the worlds population each and every year needing food,housing,water and the land to produce all that is not infinite.
WHat ever you think of peak oil if you use oil for heat you would be wise to have alternatives ready and available as most on this forum already do with their wood stoves.


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## Dune (Oct 6, 2010)

If you use oil for auto fuel you would be wise to have alternatives as well, the reason real electric cars, NOT hybrids need to be readily available, soon.


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## nate379 (Oct 6, 2010)

Or get something that is decent on mileage. On a 55 gal drum of fuel my car will go close to 3000 miles.


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## Dune (Oct 6, 2010)

NATE379 said:
			
		

> Or get something that is decent on mileage. On a 55 gal drum of fuel my car will go close to 3000 miles.



Look at the bell curve a few posts back. The Price increase bell will look similar. Prices will not decrease  untill all the oil consumption has been replaced by a cheaper alternative.  This process will take decades, especially considering the delayed start caused by decades of opposition, some of which is still ongoing and intense.

Don't forget, we are still on the peak plateau meaning we are still producing enough. Additionaly the oil prices are being held down voluntarily by the oil companies, in order to promote continued consumption. We don't know where we will pass peak. Now or very soon is certainly the time to reduce personal dependence as far as possible, preferably completely. Hybrids or very high milage vehicles still leave one vulnerable to price increases. Electric cars and Home Solar-electric or residential Co-Gen systems insulate their owners as well as speed up the process of replacing oil consumption.


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## Slow1 (Oct 6, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> Additionaly the oil prices are being held down voluntarily by the oil companies, in order to promote continued consumption. We don't know where we will pass peak.



So what you are saying is that consumers will decrease their consumption if the prices go up so the oil companies are not willing to raise prices?  Hmmm... so this would seem to imply that if/when the prices do go up (for whatever reason - let's take a shortage of supply as our reason for now) then demand will fall right? I believe that many folks consider this flexibility of demand to be a natural control mechanism on the markets.  

Look I'm not arguing against any of the 'facts' about oil supplies (I have insufficient time/ability to properly evaluate the evidence presented) but I am a believer in some of the basics of supply/demand market economics when it comes to commodity pricing.  There are alternatives and I believe as time goes on people will move to them - what I don't buy is that in the next 5 years there is going to be some massive drop-off where in 12 months time everyone driving a car will have to permanently park it because there isn't enough oil available to refine and make fuel.  

Prices will go up - and I agree it will likely be far more than many folks will like.  But as it does this people WILL find alternatives and that will help temper demand and supplies will be extended a bit more - as price goes up, more difficult to mine/drill reserves will become profitable to go after as well thus increasing the supply a bit more.  All the while other energy sources will become (relatively) more attractive and conservation (gasp) may well become in vogue.  TCO calculations that individuals do may start to include energy costs - what a good idea in my opinion.


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## Dune (Oct 6, 2010)

Slow1 said:
			
		

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Yeah, that is what just happened. When the price of gas reached about four bucks a gallon, the public stopped driving as often. The volume of gas sold lessened, they adjusted the pirce down acordingly. If we were not in the throws of a massive recession, the price would be higher, because now, people have to chose between fuel, food or whatever. At the lower price, more can aford both. 

The problem is, like I said earlier, we still produce enough to meet the worlds needs. When there is not enough, the prices will be less constrained. For those who need to drive, or need oil heat , or need for, mostly transported by oil, or anything manufactured, again using oil, all costs will skyrocket. Being prepared by needing much less of the products of the oil economy will enable those so prepared to weather the finacial storm better.

The problem with "people will find alternatives" is that there needs to be viable alternatives. There are very few electric vehicles to choose from, at present. Their are many people for whom there is no aproprite, practical choice at the moment. The market is a good fifteen years behind. Research the Toyota Raj EJ for an example.


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## btuser (Oct 6, 2010)

GlennMike said:
			
		

> look at the chart, nuff said



The first time peak oil ever made the papers it was the 1850s.


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## rowerwet (Oct 6, 2010)

while we will still have some uses for oil it will end up like coal, once we get to usable fusion tech it won't take long for dooms dayers to predict the end of it as well, then we will hear the "peak dilithium crystal" is around the corner.
Oil energy had allowed the middle class to become the largest in history, those who want to end it seem to also be on the side of those who are squeezing the middle class, oil production in the US has been cut by politicians not by a lack of it. There have been huge oil finds in recent history, do a little googling, don't trust the peak oil preachers, or the carbon myth preachers. Seems like they didn't make enough bucks off the same scare tactics back in the 60's and 70's.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 7, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

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## GlennMike (Oct 7, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

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Guess what? The boy who cried wolf eventually met the wolf.  

Wow the level of ignorance about this subject matter is amazing.   The information on what is coming is available to all that want to search for it.  Start out by watching the video linked below.  

For the poster who said the Peak oil "aware" are all about making money.  Do you really think this guy is in it for the money? watch the video


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## begreen (Oct 7, 2010)

Thanks for posting and thank you Dr. Bartlett. I've posted this lecture a couple of times to help folks look at the relationship to growth and consumption.


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## North of 60 (Oct 7, 2010)

GlennMike said:
			
		

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 OK so now what are you going to do about the sky that is falling?
 Please forgive me as I am ignorant.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 7, 2010)

Iv replaced my use of heatiing oil about 8 years ago, my problem now is Transportation fuel, Problem is there there are painfully few alternatives. Most people can  not afford the new electric cars now becoming available. I think the answer for most americans is conversion of existing cars and trucks to electric or NG. THere are so many ways to generate electricity but only one way to generate crude oil.  Instead of our Govt giving $7500 tax credits for people to buy 100% imported electric nissan leaf cars they would be better served using that money to convert existing cars and trucks to electric or NG using american parts and lobor,(god knows we need the work) I dont think we have the luxury of a lot of time.


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## Dune (Oct 7, 2010)

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## Dune (Oct 7, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

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## ChillyGator (Oct 7, 2010)

FFT: The USA will never drill it's way to energy independence, we use too much for that, but technology keeps moving into the future..........

N.D. boom sets new production records (10/07/2010)
North Dakota's oil boom has drawn 148 rigs to the state, matching a previous rig record set by drillers three decades ago, according to state officials.

"I've been watching it and watching it every day but I really didn't think we'd get there until the end of the year," said Lynn Helms, director of the state Department of Mineral Resources. "I'm pleasantly surprised."

North Dakota produced a record 9.9 million barrels of oil in July, up from the previous record of 9.4 million barrels set in June, according to the most recent data available. North Dakota's oil production in August would be about 10.5 million barrels.

The state's natural gas production, meanwhile, was pegged at a record 9.9 million cubic feet for July, up from 9 million cubic feet in June.

Nearly all the rigs are drilling in the rich Bakken Shale and Three Forks-Sanish oil reservoirs in western North Dakota.

The U.S. Geological Survey has estimated that up to 4.3 billion barrels of oil could be recovered from the Bakken in North Dakota and Montana using current technology. Modern drill rigs that use advanced horizontal drilling techniques are four to eight times more efficient than rigs that drilled vertical wells in the 1980s (AP/Billings Gazette, Oct. 5).


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 7, 2010)

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## Dune (Oct 7, 2010)

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/

These guys can help. 15 miles is not even a reasonable goal these days. There was a service truck in the sixties that weighed 8000# and had a fifty mile range on lead-acid batteries.  Trucks are ideal conversions for lead acid, since they can take the weight and the batteries can be hidden under the bed, and of course in the mostly empty engine compartment. Most converters use Ford rangers and get much better range.

Of course lighter, more powerful batteries are available these days, but for a higher price.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 7, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> http://www.diyelectriccar.com/
> 
> These guys can help. 15 miles is not even a reasonable goal these days. There was a service truck in the sixties that weighed 8000# and had a fifty mile range on lead-acid batteries.  Trucks are ideal conversions for lead acid, since they can take the weight and the batteries can be hidden under the bed, and of course in the mostly empty engine compartment. Most converters use Ford rangers and get much better range.
> 
> Of course lighter, more powerful batteries are available these days, but for a higher price.



=============
Razer Industries 
http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/the-electric-h3
They claim to have a 100MPG or 40 Miles all electric range, from a hummer conversion. THeres a former gas guzzler truck that is greener than a prius. They could do a bang up job on a HD pickup truck. I may change to a HD diesel truck  in the near future and take advantage of Bio-fuels and better MPG. Saw a spot on the green channel with this guy had a wood gasification boiler on the back of his truck,and set up his engine to run on wood gas ,drove all across london on 1 load of wood, craziest thing io ever saw,but it worked.


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## Dune (Oct 8, 2010)

Put the gassifier at your house instead of the truck, heat your house from the waste heat of generating electricity with the gassifier, charge your electric truck and car for free and have no energy bills


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## Fat Charlie (Oct 10, 2010)

rowerwet said:
			
		

> PEAK oil meaning we have used up most of it and there isn't gonna be as much from now on I don't buy, lack of supply due to market and idiotic gov policy I buy, but raise the price due to not enough demand and oil that is to expensive to get to now will become oil that big oil can turn a profit on...



Peak oil is a theory, just like evolution and gravity.  Theories that are accepted as facts because they work.  I've got a one and a half year old kid who has figured out gravity, and there are millions of "creation science" fans own various breeds of dogs.  One of those groups can barely demand "juice," but knows that when he lets go of something it's going to hit the floor.  The other group denies that evolution applies to the animal that they are, but chooses house pets based on traits selected by breeders.  People who depend on oil can join the realistic toddler who accepts what is plainly in front of him or join the fantastic delusionals who want to believe their way through life.

My house and cars burn oil.  It came from dinosaurs and the forests and swamps that they lived in.  Since we're not slaughtering dinosaurs for fuel or delivering peat bogs to refineries, it makes sense to treat petroleum as a finite resource.  Just as my youngest doesn't understand the mathematical fine points of gravity and christian fundamentalists don't understand that their doggies' attributes were created by generations of breeders, I don't have to do a thorough investigation to determine whether or not we've arrived at oil's production peak.  It simply takes a little sense to know that we will get there.

I'm not saying that oil isn't the best fuel for any particular application.  It's a great fuel and I'm a big fan of it.  I'm watching the race at Suzuka tomorrow, and my little boy loves his toy race cars.  But we don't have any more dinosaurs in the pipeline, so to speak.  So while we're probably not at Peak Oil right now, we're going to get there.  And China and India are just getting started on consumption.  And Indonesia may or may not be a member of OPEC on the day you read this, because their production may or may not be greater than their consumption on any particular day.  

Efficiency is a good thing to look at, is all I'm saying.  My house has oil heat, but I got an efficient backup diesel generator.  I'll be adding solar DHW and hooking in the diesel as a co-gen system.  No, there's nothing altruistic here, I'm just trying to reduce my expousure to the fact that oil is getting scarcer.  That's the point of Peak Oil- that we're burning oil faster than the Earth is producing it.  Sure, there's oil down there that we haven't found yet.  Sure, there's oil we've found that doesn't make financial sense to extract at today's prices.  The supply will continue, but demand is increasing and the amount of dead dinosaurs isn't.  More dead dinosaurs will be financially viable to access as oil prices rise, but dinosaur production ended a long time ago.  If you can, reduce your exposure to the reduction in supply.


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## jharkin (Oct 10, 2010)

Fat Charlie said:
			
		

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First off Charlie I think you misinterpret what peak oil is. Peak Oil is NOT running out of oil. Peak Oil is the point at which the extraction rate from the ground reaches its peak. Basically the theory says that when approximately half of the stuff in the ground has been extracted the rate peaks and then declines. So over time production rate follows a bell curve.

The problem is that population and the economy continues to grow so demand just continues to go up indefinitely. So its inevitable that if we don't develop alternatives fast enough that demand will eventually outstrip supply and lead to price spikes and limits on economic growth.

I would argue that peak oil shouldn't even be labeled a theory. Its been proven in many individual counties (USA peaked in 1971, Alaska peaked in the 80s, North Sea peaked in the 90s, Mexico a few years ago I think. Just google it).  Its just a fact of physics that any non-renewing resource (and oil is for practical purposes non-renewable in human lifetimes as it takes millions of years to form) cannot keep increasing production indefinitely.

The most significant criticism of the theory is the claim that unconventional sources like shale and tar sands will extend production and stave off the peak. Those claims ignore the reality that whereas conventional oil as a production ratio of 20-1 or 30-1  (down from 100-1 in the early days, these unconventional sources have ratios as low as 5-1 or 3-1.  That's how much of the energy recovered is burned up in production.  If oil pumped from a Saudi well at 30-1 costs $80 a barrel, how much do you think 3-1 tar sands oil will cost?  See why this is such a serious problem yet?


Its not surprising that most average folks don't believe this. The mainstream media and governments don't talk about it openly  for obvious reasons - admitting this is real and how close we are would lead to a general panic and stock market crash that would paralyze society and prevent any effort to adapt.  OTOH, I dont think anyone in power is actually making any realistic attempt to deal with it so long as there is so much money to be made by corporate interests in continuing things the way they are.



If you don't want to look it up...


US oil production over time. First peak in the 70s is lower 48 production peak. The sub peak in the 80s is when Alaska started to slow.  See its been all downhill since.
http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS1&f=A

The Hirsch Report to Congress
http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/oil_peaking_netl.pdf

US Military 2010 operating environment report. Read pages 24 to 28.  The Pentagon believes in Peak Oil...
http://www.jfcom.mil/newslink/storyarchive/2010/JOE_2010_o.pdf

So does the German Bundeswher
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,715138,00.html

And the Government and a number of big companies in Britain
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/128dcc6a-95c6-11df-b5ad-00144feab49a.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...-within-five-years-Richard-Branson-warns.html

Lloyds of London believes in Peak oil, warned of $200/barrel likely in 3 years
http://www.triplepundit.com/2010/07/lloyds-of-london-warns-about-peaking-oil-energy-price-jump/


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## jharkin (Oct 10, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

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The bigger problem is that electric cars solve NOTHING so long as 90% of our electricity comes from the same declining fossil fuels.

The only real solution is a massive nuclear power program (thorium breeders anyone?)  But nobody has the stomach for it...


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## Dune (Oct 10, 2010)

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Not entirely true. Electric cars use half as much energy per mile as gas cars.  They are inherently more effiecient regardless of how the electricity is generated.

Additionaly, very little of our electricity is generated from oil.  Much is it is from coal, which will naturaly be phased out of use as a fuel, long before we run out. Coal that we do not import by the way.

Finaly, many people could, if they chose to, generate their own car fuel through solar or co-generation.  Making your own gasoline is a lot harder.

This country is heavily investing in alternative electricity right now.  Storage of that power is an issue. Electric cars are part of the solution.


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## Fat Charlie (Oct 10, 2010)

Jharkin- sorry, I know it's not the running out, but the production decline.  I was addressing rowerwet's position that market forces will handle all supply problems.  We're going to run out of oil some day and production is going to fall to near zero, not abruptly cease one day.  Market forces and technology may manipulate the supply and demand to shift the point that we hit peak oil, but that doesn't really matter when that point is.  What matters is that we're going to hit it, and that's going to be a problem.


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## Dune (Oct 10, 2010)

jharkin said:
			
		

> The bigger problem is that electric cars solve NOTHING so long as 90% of our electricity comes from the same declining fossil fuels.
> 
> The only real solution is a massive nuclear power program (thorium breeders anyone?)  But nobody has the stomach for it...





For another veiwpoint on nuclear power as well as solar power read these two posts by a retired nuclear power plant engineer,
http://anvilfire.com/hammerin/

scroll down to Guru Thursday 9/30/10 18:49 
              and Guru Friday    10/01/10 11:54

I have known this guy for almost ten years, he is NOT a liberal, just a realist.


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## jharkin (Oct 11, 2010)

I know nuclear has a lot of risks.  TO be honest I used to be, until not very long ago, a true believer that we would research our way out of this problem. That the day would come when oil got expensive enough that solar/wind/or some other new tech (fusion?) would be economical and then we would have a nice smooth transition.

Then came the 2008 oil shock. And the never ending recession. And the Macando spill. And the ability of people to forget the Macando spill a week later so long as gas stayed cheap.  And I've just lost faith that technology will save us.

Or maybe I read too much of the oil drum...

Either way Em just not convinced anymore that we can scale up solar and wind in time to keep up our existing way of life before the fossils run out.


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## jharkin (Oct 11, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> Not entirely true. Electric cars use half as much energy per mile as gas cars.  They are inherently more effiecient regardless of how the electricity is generated.
> 
> Additionaly, very little of our electricity is generated from oil.  Much is it is from coal, which will naturaly be phased out of use as a fuel, long before we run out. Coal that we do not import by the way.
> 
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Dune...

Yup, I know we don't use much oil for electric generation.  Its mostly coal and gas.  But those are fossil fuels also, and even though we may have decades yet they will also peak and decline eventually.

As to the energy use..  a typical gasoline engine converts, what , 25% or less of the fuels energy into work rihgt?  Ok, so an electic motor can be potentially 90% efficient. Plus the gains of regenerative braking, etc.  But to that efficiency you have to subtract losses in transmission and battery charging. And then there is the power plant... what the efficnecy of a typical gas power plant... maybe 40 - 50% ?  Overall I agree the electric has an edge but I dont think its huge.

As to coal.  Yup we have all we need for now. But when we start having trouble securing enough oil and there are not enough electric cars to go around what do you think the next best option will be? Im betting we will turn to CTL.  I don't think ethanol will scale up without putting major pressure on the food supply and there is precedent for countries with oil shortages turning to CTL (south africa, etc).


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## RowCropRenegade (Oct 11, 2010)

Let me toss out an interesting theory.

Jevon's paradox.  Look it up.  Adds a whole new view of peak oil, peak food, etc.

Jevon basically says that increased efficiency actually leads to more consumption, not less.


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## North of 60 (Oct 11, 2010)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Let me toss out an interesting theory.
> 
> Jevon's paradox.  Look it up.  Adds a whole new view of peak oil, peak food, etc.
> 
> Jevon basically says that increased efficiency actually leads to more consumption, not less.





You nailed it!


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## Dune (Oct 11, 2010)

http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/2005/12/180-jevons-paradox-refuted.html

Another theory based entirely on one persons misinterpretation and then taken as fact for centuries.

Of course the demand for coal increased after the invention of the steam engine. Demand for fuel created a new market. 

This has nothing to do whatsoever with fuel efficiency and every thing to do with work efficiency.  

What is there to argue about? There is a finite amount of oil. When we use it all it is gone. Do you deny this fact?


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## Dune (Oct 11, 2010)

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I read this article http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-path-to-sustainable-energy-by-2030  It makes clear a path by which fossil fuels can be elininated within 20 years, using current tech.  Integral to this plan is all manner of alternative energy conversions. Will we go this far this soon? I don't know, kind of doubt it. We could though, and the only way it will happen is in small steps, millions of them all other world. Waiting for the "solution" to be discovered is like being an ostrich.
If those of us who can, on a personel level, do everything within our means, the solution becomes nearer. 

It is time to look at this problem selfishly. When I stopped burning oil for home heat, I saved thousands of dollars a year, every year. When I stop using electricity from the grid, I will save more thousands every year. When I stop using gasoline, I will save more thousands. When I stop using lettuce from across the world, I will again save money. All of these actions put dollars in my pocket and reduce the drain on resources.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 16, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

> http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/2005/12/180-jevons-paradox-refuted.html
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> 
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Just as important as using less fuel to me is where does it come from. My home heating appliance was constructed 40 miles from where i live,not in china as some kerosene and wood heaters are. Also the fuel sources for my heater are less than 10 miles in any direction, not saudi arabia or some other country. I think our economy is just as sick as our environment and needs us to support local industries. Also im not likely to suffer from supply shortages and problems involving transporting other heating fuels long distances.


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