# Eko vs Varm



## jasonh (Aug 10, 2015)

I know its a little early for a versus topic, but I just read through the entire sticky for eko tuning.  Reading through it, I found a lot of good information on how people took an enormous amount of time to get their eko to run at peak performance.   One question though, do you have to adjust the settings each time you fire the boiler or is it on a as needed basis?  Can an eko boiler be a "load and go" or do you need to stand and watch it for awhile?

Now searching on here for a varm, I've read a couple threads that once set up you could just load it and go.  It seems a little more time efficient than an eko.  Am I correct? 

From other research it seems the 2 brands are pretty similar with a few more bells and whistles going to the varm. Between the varm 37 and eko 40 they are roughly the same size with the varm being a little more money.  My dilemma is do I spend a little more money for a "load it and go" varm or save some money, tweak the eko to run good and be happy.

Storage and piping will be the same for either so not really concerned with that.  And I'm not sure if I'm asking the right questions, hence why I'm asking here to the happy users who are making them work at peak performance.  

Time for me is an issue having 2 little boys under the age of 3 and being away for 12 hours a day 4 days a week at my job.  To me both boilers are work horses and are tried and true, just would like some more info from actual users of either.

Thanks


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 10, 2015)

jasonh said:


> I know its a little early for a versus topic, but I just read through the entire sticky for eko tuning.  Reading through it, I found a lot of good information on how people took an enormous amount of time to get their eko to run at peak performance.   One question though, do you have to adjust the settings each time you fire the boiler or is it on a as needed basis?  Can an eko boiler be a "load and go" or do you need to stand and watch it for awhile?
> 
> Now searching on here for a varm, I've read a couple threads that once set up you could just load it and go.  It seems a little more time efficient than an eko.  Am I correct?
> 
> ...


I'm interested to know the same info. I too am in a similar with work hours and  two boys under 3 and under.


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## woodsmaster (Aug 11, 2015)

I've never run either, but from what I've learned on there the eko is a a hard dirty job to clean the tubes where the varm can be cleaned in around a minute. That is the biggest advantage I see. Also a huge weight difference, varm being lighter. I think this is good in that it will heat up faster but makes me wonder if they skimped on the steel ?


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## jasonh (Aug 11, 2015)

Or do they just have the right steel in the right places thus using lighter steel in other places?  I don't really know, if never designed one.  Like I said above, what I've read on this site, both parties are happy with their boilers and have warm houses.  I guess the issue that concerns me the most is do you have to sit there for 30 minutes while the eko gets going?  But maybe the varm is the same.  I dont know personally.  I also remember a few people saying that the eko is tough to get going from a cold boiler state.  I thought that was the point of batch burning? 

 It is impressive to see the amount of storage some people have and heating it with either boiler.  I remember reading nofossil heating 800+ gallons with a 25 and burning once a day.  That's a sweet setup.  I was thinking either boiler and 2 500 gal tanks for me.  Of course that's quite a few steps down in the design.


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## jebatty (Aug 11, 2015)

I have no personal experience with either, but I do with a Tarm Solo 40, in many ways like the Eko in that it has simple controls. The Tarm manual gives advice on setting the primary/secondary air manual air control, and then says "or you can set it and forget it," which is what I did after some early experimenting with different settings. On the technical side, adjusting the air control can help to make burns more efficient depending on the moisture content of the wood. All of my wood is dried at least two full summers, so my wood likely has pretty consistent moisture content. In all events, set it and forget it is my mantra.

As to starting, about 5 minutes from the match to gasification burn. Kindling, partial wood load of small splits, light, burn takes off quickly, gasification starts, wait a couple of minutes, complete loading, and walk away.

As to cleaning, this can be important because they do need to be cleaned. I brush mine every 2-4 weeks, when I notice stack temp has risen about 100F from temp with newly brushed, cleaned tubes. To clean the Tarm fire tubes you have to remove part of the top cabinet of the boiler and then a plate which covers the fire tubes. Both very easy and quick things to do. Then brush the tubes. Also easy and quick, although a low ceiling would complicate this some. Then put the steel plate and the cabinet piece back on. 

I wouldn't get too far down the line on one brand vs another brand of similar build boilers. The big differences come with lamda controls. And that's where a difference can matter a lot. This is where my personal experience with a Froling would make the Froling my boiler of choice if I ever have to replace my Tarm. The Tarm saw its first burn in 2006 and shows little sign of wear as the 2015-16 burn season soon will be starting. Hard to believe this will be 10 years with clean, smoke free hot water heat.


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## jasonh (Aug 11, 2015)

Jebatty, good stuff in your post.  I only stated those 2 boilers based on the similarity in price, which is in my price range.  If I had the funds I would just get a garn.  Of course there is the attack and biomass which are in the 5k range as well.  And maybe a few others I'm forgetting.


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## infinitymike (Aug 11, 2015)

Hey, If I can throw wrench in to your thoughts, have you considered a Wood Gun?
They are the bare bones controls, which may lead to a less efficient burn, but they really are a "set it and forget it" machine.
5 minute start up from a empty firebox to gasification, 5 minutes to clean out the gasification chamber and ash pan once a week, and even with no storage (which I would recommend and like to get) it can take a full load of wood and last 8-12 hours depending on your heat load.
A bit more expensive, (why I'm not sure) but it may be worth the lack of effort needed to run it.
I will say that I had my fair share of "issues" in the first year or two, but I chalk it up to my lack of user knowledge.
I run it year round for winter heat and summer DHW and have gotten a system that is extremely quick and easy.
My wife and teenage kids have run it while I've been away with just as much ease.

They also like big, somewhat moist spits, which will save you time c/s/s

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck,


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## maple1 (Aug 11, 2015)

Woodsmaster hit on what I was going to hit on.

Don't overlook ease of use beyond getting the fire going - you will have to keep it clean for as long as you will own it, and nothing beats a Varm for that. Just open a door, slide turbs out, brush tubes, slide turbs back in, close door. 5 minutes tops. I can even do mine while there is a fire going, if I wanted to. Not good for brush life, but just goes to show how easy it is.

I don't have any first hand experience with an Eko, but lots of happy users out there for those too. Hopefully you will get more Varm 37 feedback - but I think both are more or less set & forget once you get dialed in for your chimney & wood conditions, and can't see there being much difference in fire starting. One key difference is in their draft setups though - Varm is induced draft (air is sucked through firebox), while Eko is forced draft (air is blown through firebox). I think - someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong on the Eko. That may be prove to be a benefit to you if this will be installed in the house - induced usually means less chance of smoke spillage.

I really like my Varm, and it couldn't be much simpler - natural draft with no controls or fan. Only a stat to start the pump. And shut it off when the fire goes out. [One thing to check out is how Eko handles end of burn shut-down. Some units will keep running the fan until it is manually shut off, not sure if that applies to the Eko]. You do need a pretty tall chimney for the 40 though. Aside from that the construction is mostly the same as the 37, and I have seen no issues after 3 seasons - aside from one cracked refractory that cracked in the middle of season 1 that I have done nothing about and don't plan to for a while yet. No signs of refractory wear in the nozzle area yet - and when that day does come, they are very easy to service & replace. I got a spare set when I bought my boiler and don't anticipate having to start to think about changing them for at least another 3 years. They are very well engineered units.


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## GregMajecki (Aug 11, 2015)

I have biomass  40 wood/oil unit. My advice would be to get oil boiler and add wood boiler to the system. Also I would get the best wood boiler that you can afford with electronics control for air. I spent a lot of time adjusting and re-adjusting air settings
If it come to cleaning I clean mine 2 times per winter its a wood boiler and there is always ash, smoke and dirt  
With oil prices low I think wood boiler hype is gone
just my five cents


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 11, 2015)

Not to get off topic of  the EKO vs Tarm OP, but how does the Econoburn compare to the Tarm/EKO?  

 I ask because I have a Econoburn dealer locally and local dealer support maybe an important factor to consider.


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## jasonh (Aug 11, 2015)

Greg that's my thing.  I don't want to have to adjust and readjust the settings every load or whatever.  A lambda boiler would be nice but I don't think it's in my budget.  Oil is low now, but what's it's going to be in 6 months?  No one knows.

Maple, I'm glad you chimed in.  We've talked a few times before about your boiler.  You make some good points.  The varm is "easier" to clean I guess from what I've been reading as opposed to the eko. 

I was hoping more eko boilers could offer their experiences.


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## flyingcow (Aug 11, 2015)

jasonh said:


> Jebatty, good stuff in your post.  I only stated those 2 boilers based on the similarity in price, which is in my price range.  If I had the funds I would just get a garn.  Of course there is the attack and biomass which are in the 5k range as well.  And maybe a few others I'm forgetting.




You might find out the Garn will be no more money than a gasser w/storage+installation time. And I don't think you'll find an easier unit to run.


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## jasonh (Aug 11, 2015)

Not a problem Buzz.  I was thinking of a tarm but can't find any prices for their boilers.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 11, 2015)

Shot, I ment Varm.  I'm scrabble right now as we speak. Just got off the phone with the builder of my pole barn. Lots to do and little time to do it.


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## jasonh (Aug 11, 2015)

Varm tarm.....I knew what ya meant.  The 100,000 btu tarm is 6 or 7k.  I called them this afternoon.  The solo Innova was 8k I think.


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## Tennman (Aug 13, 2015)

Definitely not "too early" for a "versus" discussion if you intend and install for the '15-'16 season. This is a BIG life decision. Lots of guys in your neck of the woods who would be glad to have you come see their system. I highly recommend you do that (I should have). A several hour drive is nothing compared to the time you're going to spend feeding and caring for any wood boiler over it's operational life.

I want to be respectful of the many, very happy EKO owners, but I don't understand why that design has been stagnant for a such a long time. Our company develops products and if our product line was stagnant for over 20 years our competition would bury us. And the answer is not that it's a product that can't be improved. The BioMass is a much newer design and has seen product upgrades. I think today you can buy a Lambda Attack in the 5-6K price range which if I was going to visit Zenon today at New Horizons I might leave with an Attack instead of a BioMass.

As far as I can tell the "value brands" are still the EKO, BioMass, and Attack (but expect this forum to be your customer support lifeline). We purchased a affordable boiler, but without the generous help from guys on this forum, I might have thrown in the towel like many who try to save money on the boiler. I.e., far more inquiries over the years asking about purchasing a used EKO or BioMass than a Froling, Varm, or Garn. 

Look at Maple.... over 5,000 posts and really likes his Varm. Very reassuring endorsement. And BTW Flyingcow's point on the Garn is well taken if you have radiant heat. Our system all up with storage would not be far from a Garn's install cost. Bit of a bummer we're forced air.

Don't over think the nozzle tuning. Lots of EKO and BioMass users now have nozzle opening dimensions that work well across a spectrum of conditions and new users get lots of help via the Stickies. But, on the other hand, I like technology. If I was to buy a new wood boiler today, it would have lambda control for all the same reasons we're dumping carburetors and transitioning to fuel injection on our products to get continuously optimized combustion efficiency and reliability. You've found the right place. Welcome


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## jasonh (Aug 13, 2015)

Thanks tenman, very insightful post.  Is the lambda attack the profi?  I looked on one of the sites and it only looked like it was for the 75.  Wasn't sure.  Reading this thread and buzzsaw's thread, what do you guys think about the a switzer boiler?  I emailed him last year and he said a 500 gallon boiler was like $9500.  Seems like the concensus is, you'll have a little more in it than that with a boiler, storage and insulation.  From my understanding the switzer is kinda like a garn.  So many decisions.

Good news is my village called me and said there is no ordinance against wood boilers in town.  I could run a hardy or other smoke dragon if I wanted to.  I know better than that though.

I've been around for a couple years lurking in the shadows but just started posting this past winter.  And I would like to get it in for the 16-17 season.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 13, 2015)

That Switzer looks interesting to me.  I searched here and it seems to be pressurized vs. unpressurized Garn.  They sure look similar on the surface.


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## jasonh (Aug 13, 2015)

Velvet, It's looks the same to me.  Maybe heaterman can chime in.  He knows his stuff on the garns.  Maybe him or anyone else can spread a little more light on any differences.  Pressurized would be great since I have a gas boiler in the basement I could tie right into.


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## jasonh (Aug 14, 2015)

I had a breakthrough today.  I think I'm going to head towards a varm.  My boys are getting close to the age where we can actually take a vacation somewhere warm in the winter.  We're thinking of looking into purchasing a condo in the Carolinas at some point for rental income.  So with my vacation time from work, we can spend a week somewhere, meaning I won't be here to feed the boiler.  I flip over the varm to the pellet head, fill a bin and head south for awhile.  I'm not sure if any other manufacturers offer a pellet head or not.  I think wood master does.  

I was kinda heading toward a varm anyway.  Last winter I started looking at them pretty hard in hopes to get things in order to make it happen.  Just wanted to see what the eko owners had to say.  Now it's just putting all the pieces together.


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## maple1 (Aug 14, 2015)

I heavily weighed the backup options also.

I decided on an electric boiler for that, and got rid of all oil stuff. Very cheap & easy to install (relatively speaking), takes up to no room, and doesn't get much easier to 'switch over'. Just flip a switch to send power to it.

Granted, electric boilers can chew a lot of juice - but we're only away maybe 2 days all winter so the extra fuel cost in those two days is irrelevant, in that situation (can coast on storage the first day). Might be with a week of running also? 

But if I was rewinding the clock back to then, I might have gone with a mini-split instead. Much more expensive, but has the capability to heat with less expense, and also do A/C in the summer. I'm actually considering one anyway, even after the fact, to add to the mix. I did consider the fact that my boiler can easily take a pellet head in the future, in deciding what boiler to get. It was one of the more minor factors though - and hard to say what the pellet situation will be like around here whenever I get tired of doing wood. It's not the best as it is. So I'm still constantly thinking about future options - preferable fuel choices seem to be in constant state of flux. Even oil isn't looking as bad as it did back then (did I actually say that?).


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## jasonh (Aug 15, 2015)

We have NG here with an 83% efficient boiler running through baseboard.  I know where I live we're supposedly in the hot bed for the shale drilling.  However my gas bill does not go down event hough I'm running my blaze king 24/7.  It continues to go up every year.  And for me it's more of a self sufficiency thing than a financial payback in 3 years or less. 

I think the pellets might work ok for summer time as well as being away in winter.   Depends on what supply looks like at the end of a season.   I have no idea though.   I never looked into pellets before.

On a seperate note, gas just went up 90 cents here


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 15, 2015)

Jason, what's your heat load?  How many BTU's an hour do you require?  

I like the Varms too, but not sure they will be big enough. Granted I haven't looked to closely  into them either.  I also like the Econoburns.......


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## jasonh (Aug 15, 2015)

I think in the 40's an hour.  I talked to dean before and we came to the 37 from my usage from the previous year.


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## plumedic (Aug 15, 2015)

I'm listening with interest to this thread because I'm needing to buy a boiler as well. Does anyone have the pellet attachment for their varm? Do they work good? I do like the option of 2 fuels.


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## jasonh (Aug 15, 2015)

There's a YouTube video of one in use.  Just search Varmebaronen and it should come up.  It's a pretty neat feature to have.  From what I seen you have to change a plate on the door or something like that.


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## maple1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> Jason, what's your heat load?  How many BTU's an hour do you require?
> 
> I like the Varms too, but not sure they will be big enough. Granted I haven't looked to closely  into them either.  I also like the Econoburns.......



I had a heat loss done on my house when it was built, 20 years ago. I have no idea what the numbers were & can't find it now - the heating contractor had it done. But it's a conventional (2x6 walls) two storey, 1500 down & 1200 up, (plus unfinished basement) on an exposed open hilltop - and the most I was actually burning last year was 9 hours a day. Most days more like 6. So unless the heat loss in this case is a LOT more than that, the Varm should be more than capable - I think the 37 puts out a bit more heat/hr than mine & the way I run it & wood I burn.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 15, 2015)

I used the slant Fin heat loss calculator. Here are my values:

Indoor temp 70F°
Outdoor temp 0F°
Which gave me a load of 89,537(or something like that) BTU's heat load per hour for the house.


I also will have a 32'x60'x14' barn I will heat with in slab radiant. I haven't done a heat load on that yet.

My house and barn also sit on top of a hill with little protection.  The mailbox and a couple trees in the yard 

Maple in your experience could the Varm37 can keep up with that demand without having to baby sit the boiler? 

 0°F is probably a bit lower than needed but I want a system to ride out the cold cold winter days we are having now.  If we don't have super cold days then I'm figuring a long time between burns. I would like to get 12 hrs between burns at 0F° but unsure what I need to accomplish this.

I just wish there was someone local,that understands & familiar  with wood burning with storage, to help me properly size out my system.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 15, 2015)

I've talked with a couple HVAC guys and I'm starting at scratch trying to explain what I want and how storage works.... Frustrating at times.


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## jasonh (Aug 15, 2015)

Buzz, I used 0° in my calculations as well.  Seems like the last couple years that seems to be a good median low temp to guage by. 

To others that already have their systems running, is this a good "theory" to base your calculations on?  Seems to me that would just up the size of storage maybe.  That's why I pretty much settled on 1000 gallons.  I really only want to burn 1 time a day if I can.  

I remember building panels last January when it was -11°.  And that was without the windchill.  Probably the coldest weather I've ever worked in, in NE ohio.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 15, 2015)

jasonh said:


> Buzz, I used 0° in my calculations as well.  Seems like the last couple years that seems to be a good median low temp to guage by.
> 
> To others that already have their systems running, is this a good "theory" to base your calculations on?  Seems to me that would just up the size of storage maybe.  That's why I pretty much settled on 1000 gallons.  I really only want to burn 1 time a day if I can.
> 
> I remember building panels last January when it was -11°.  And that was without the windchill.  Probably the coldest weather I've ever worked in, in NE ohio.


Did you figure you heat load or higher it out?

Locally we had a couple days the high way -15°. Not fun at all.


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## jasonh (Aug 15, 2015)

Buzz, I had to have my condenser moved when I dug my footers up in may.  I asked him if he knew about wood boilers and storage.  He said he did, but we'll see.  It doesn't seem as main stream as I would of thought.  Kinda disappointing.  I bet every hvac knows what's going on across the pond.


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## jasonh (Aug 15, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> Did you figure you heat load or higher it out?
> 
> Locally we had a couple days the high way -15°. Not fun at all.



I did it off a website on the internet.  I forget which one.  It was a spreadsheet type page.  I used 74° for the interior temp.  We're used to the wood stove going 24/7.


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## S.Whiplash (Aug 16, 2015)

Buzz Saw said:


> Not to get off topic of  the EKO vs Tarm OP, but how does the Econoburn compare to the Tarm/EKO?
> 
> I ask because I have a Econoburn dealer locally and local dealer support maybe an important factor to consider.




Won't go wrong looking at an Econoburn, excellent performance and build and should still be running in 25 years.


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## BoiledOver (Aug 18, 2015)

Holy cripes dude. Have you done any math with regard to payback time? Is all of your wood free? With natural gas and the amount under the ground in the U.S, costs should be more steady than any other fuel out there. If we had NG available, I never woulda considered a wood fired boiler and just stuck with a wood stove indoors. Firewood prices around here have risen each of the passed two years for those that buy. Enough that I will just harvest off my land from here out.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 18, 2015)

BoiledOver said:


> Holy cripes dude. Have you done any math with regard to payback time? Is all of your wood free? With natural gas and the amount under the ground in the U.S, costs should be more steady than any other fuel out there. If we had NG available, I never woulda considered a wood fired boiler and just stuck with a wood stove indoors. Firewood prices around here have risen each of the passed two years for those that buy. Enough that I will just harvest off my land from here out.



Who is dude?


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## BoiledOver (Aug 18, 2015)

In response to the original posting. Dude would be jasonh.


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## jasonh (Aug 18, 2015)

BoiledOver said:


> Holy cripes dude. Have you done any math with regard to payback time? Is all of your wood free? With natural gas and the amount under the ground in the U.S, costs should be more steady than any other fuel out there. If we had NG available, I never woulda considered a wood fired boiler and just stuck with a wood stove indoors. Firewood prices around here have risen each of the passed two years for those that buy. Enough that I will just harvest off my land from here out.



Considering that my last gas bill was $6.99 mcf and isn't that much different during the winter month, they stopped all drilling in my area and only 1 gas supplier why would I not consider it?  

As far as wood goes, I work for the railroad, which is lined with trees on both sides of the tracks and they like to fall on the tracks, my neighbor owns 8 acres that I pretty much have the run at and my dad owns a 45 acre farm filled with timber......Ya I don't buy firewood.

Some people have other reasons to buy a boiler setup like: self reliance, teaching 2 young boys what hard work is and again self reliance, not having a gas bill that's $400 when the wood stove isn't running, getting the mess outside and not even having the chance of a chimney fire in the house.  At least those are my reasons

I didn't know only oil burners could buy wood boilers.  My mistake.


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## Buzz Saw (Aug 18, 2015)

That's what I figured, but I wasn't sure since I had been throwing out numbers too


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## BoiledOver (Aug 18, 2015)

It appears you are singed at my post. No need to be insulted as there was no intents as such. We all do as we do, good luck with your plans.


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## BoiledOver (Aug 18, 2015)

@jasonh In case you are not aware.
Ohio is a choose your own ng supplier, yes?  At the following link it shows several choices under $4 at a fixed price. Best of luck on your heating needs. http://www.energychoice.ohio.gov/Ap...?Category=NaturalGas&TerritoryId=1&RateCode=1


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## jasonh (Aug 18, 2015)

I did know.  Thank you for the link.  Just haven't had time to look into it with the other projects going on here.


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## jasonh (Aug 18, 2015)

Thanks to boiledover's link I just locked in ng for $3.75/mcf till September 2017.  However I will still continue to burn wood and still continue to research a wood boiler system.  I still hate paying a gas bill.


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## BoiledOver (Aug 19, 2015)

Wow, 54% of what your previous rate was. Glad to see you get the reduction in your heating costs.


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## jasonh (Aug 19, 2015)

Actually I was mistaken.  It was 5.99 this last July and 6.99 in July 2014.  Wow!  Still 3.75 is good I think.  Still hate paying it though.   But such is life.


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## BoiledOver (Aug 19, 2015)

You're welcome.


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## Coal Reaper (Aug 20, 2015)

quite a few points going on in this thread, but i will chime in.
if NG was an option for me i too would not have gone the wood burning route, and i have enough property to sustain my wood burning.  insulation upgrades would have been a better investment and shorter ROI.
yes, lot of happy EKO users, but for even for the extra price i chose vedolux 37 without hesitation.  as maple stated, very easy to clean.  i can play with my air adjustments all i want but it dont seem to change my burn rate or output so i leave it at the recommended settings.  it is nothing like you read in the EKO tuning sticky.  as far as 'low-mass boiler', i am happy to have that thing up to operating temp and moving 160* water to storage in under 15 minutes of striking a match.  fireboxes typically fail at the welds.  no matter how thick of plate they are constructed from, sub-par welds will lead to failure.  varms welds are top notch.  im sure the EKO runs better on dryer wood, but my 37 NEEDS it.  as i approach 25%MC its just no good.
hard to find a local heating guy to do the install.  and i think you may be starting to get into a time crunch for the beginning of this season.

edit: pellet head.  i liked the idea that i can hook the pellet head up if i decide to ever stop burning stickwood.  for only 1 or 2 weeks out of the year tho it wouldnt be worth the investment.


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## jasonh (Aug 26, 2015)

Coal reaper, we just had our walls foamed from the outside this last March.   So we'll see how that works for the gas reader.   I'm not looking to install anything till next heating season or maybe later.  I even dabbled into researching the kuuma and such since we have central air.  Downside is fire/mess still in the house.  Still not sure what I want to do.  Have to sit and read more about the options.


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## Bad LP (Aug 27, 2015)

jasonh said:


> I had a breakthrough today.  I think I'm going to head towards a varm.  My boys are getting close to the age where we can actually take a vacation somewhere warm in the winter.  We're thinking of looking into purchasing a condo in the Carolinas at some point for rental income.  So with my vacation time from work, we can spend a week somewhere, meaning I won't be here to feed the boiler.  I flip over the varm to the pellet head, fill a bin and head south for awhile.  I'm not sure if any other manufacturers offer a pellet head or not.  I think wood master does.
> 
> I was kinda heading toward a varm anyway.  Last winter I started looking at them pretty hard in hopes to get things in order to make it happen.  Just wanted to see what the eko owners had to say.  Now it's just putting all the pieces together.


 
When I was pouring over wood boiler information last year I came to the exact same conclusion. Having the option of burning pellets would be a huge plus in my mind. At 54 I don't have a problem playing in the log pile. Something could change in later life that would not allow that.
My storage capabilities allow for plenty of storage for either wood, pellets or a combo of both. I would however use my current propane boiler as backup or when away.


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## Buzz Saw (Feb 24, 2016)

@jasonh.  Did you end up pulling the trigger on  Varm?


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## jasonh (Feb 25, 2016)

Negative.  I didn't buy anything yet.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 25, 2016)

jasonh said:


> Negative.  I didn't buy anything yet.


Jason - I rad your post last night and you reminded me of me. I purchased the indoor boiler as a hobby, taking the effort put into wood I could easily use that energy at my regular job and make a lot more than I ever could save in heating. That being said I still think it was the right decision. It is a "lifestyle". Tracking down the free wood, moving it, splitting it, building wood sheds, excuse to buy a tractor, get outside when my wife is screaming at the kids, bring the kids outside with me. Today they each have a splitting wedge and a 4 # hammer in the basement, they love to come down and split wood while I load the boiler and then they fight over who gets to use the ax. They each have an old ATV tire that can hold wood upright for them. Last year I learned that holding wood for 2 7 year olds at the same time was a bad thing waiting to happen (to my fingers). No regrets on the decision and as my boys get older (8 year old twins) I hope this becomes a big part of their world as you stated in your objectives. By the way attached is a photo of what happens when my wife leaves me alone with 8 year olds. There is more to life than ROI, today's ROI was listening to my whole house generator while I drank a cappuccino and roasted some more coffee. I am as cheap as they get but we need to enjoy life as well, I think you had a great vision - if you still have it pursue it! Of course I would recommend an Effecta.


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## jasonh (Feb 25, 2016)

All good points John.  Glad to see your boys helping out and spending time with dad. That's awesone!  Hopefully when they get older they will have the wood bug as well and keep the tradition going.  

As far as my situation goes my boys are 3 and 17 months so I have some time before they get an axe in their hands. Talking with Dean, a 55, 1000 gallons of storage and everything else but pumps was over 11k.  That's a little hard to swallow.  I'm looking at a 1 seasoned used g100.  Alot alot less than the varm.  Dowside is I won't be heating dhw in summer.  But the savings financially is a trade off I'm willing to do.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 25, 2016)

jasonh said:


> All good points John.  Glad to see your boys helping out and spending time with dad. That's awesone!  Hopefully when they get older they will have the wood bug as well and keep the tradition going.
> 
> As far as my situation goes my boys are 3 and 17 months so I have some time before they get an axe in their hands. Talking with Dean, a 55, 1000 gallons of storage and everything else but pumps was over 11k.  That's a little hard to swallow.  I'm looking at a 1 seasoned used g100.  Alot alot less than the varm.  Dowside is I won't be heating dhw in summer.  But the savings financially is a trade off I'm willing to do.


There is no doubt,  high quality indoor gasser with storage is not cheap. IF you research some threads on "total project cost" you will see what happens what others have experienced. Personally I do not burn to heat DHW only. No matter what, that introduces heat into the house when you are trying to cool it, I don't want to keep wood so close to my house when it is warm (bugs, etc.), don't want to wheel wood over my grass if I don't stack it by the house and just a good time to take a little break to focus on some wood gathering, splitting or whatever. Since I do it for fun, I consider it seasonal like skiing. Good luck and if you keep your eyes open you never know what you might find, I sold a 1 year old Effecta 35kw with a loading pump for $4k (I think)- so good deals are out there.


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## jasonh (Feb 25, 2016)

JohnDolz said:


> There is no doubt,  high quality indoor gasser with storage is not cheap. IF you research some threads on "total project cost" you will see what happens what others have experienced. Personally I do not burn to heat DHW only. No matter what, that introduces heat into the house when you are trying to cool it, I don't want to keep wood so close to my house when it is warm (bugs, etc.), don't want to wheel wood over my grass if I don't stack it by the house and just a good time to take a little break to focus on some wood gathering, splitting or whatever. Since I do it for fun, I consider it seasonal like skiing. Good luck and if you keep your eyes open you never know what you might find, I sold a 1 year old Effecta 35kw with a loading pump for $4k (I think)- so good deals are out there.



Good point on taking a break during the "off season".  The g100 I'm looking at is about 4k.  So that's not too bad.  Hopefully I can get over there next weekend.


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## JohnDolz (Feb 25, 2016)

jasonh said:


> Good point on taking a break during the "off season".  The g100 I'm looking at is about 4k.  So that's not too bad.  Hopefully I can get over there next weekend.


Good luck and enjoy!


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## Buzz Saw (Feb 25, 2016)

jasonh said:


> Good point on taking a break during the "off season".  The g100 I'm looking at is about 4k.  So that's not too bad.  Hopefully I can get over there next weekend.


I believe the Heatmaster G 100' are approved for indoor use.  Where you planning on putting it in a building, or did you consider it?


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## Fred61 (Feb 25, 2016)

JohnDolz said:


> Jason - I rad your post last night and you reminded me of me. I purchased the indoor boiler as a hobby, taking the effort put into wood I could easily use that energy at my regular job and make a lot more than I ever could save in heating. That being said I still think it was the right decision. It is a "lifestyle". Tracking down the free wood, moving it, splitting it, building wood sheds, excuse to buy a tractor, get outside when my wife is screaming at the kids, bring the kids outside with me. Today they each have a splitting wedge and a 4 # hammer in the basement, they love to come down and split wood while I load the boiler and then they fight over who gets to use the ax. They each have an old ATV tire that can hold wood upright for them. Last year I learned that holding wood for 2 7 year olds at the same time was a bad thing waiting to happen (to my fingers). No regrets on the decision and as my boys get older (8 year old twins) I hope this becomes a big part of their world as you stated in your objectives. By the way attached is a photo of what happens when my wife leaves me alone with 8 year olds. There is more to life than ROI, today's ROI was listening to my whole house generator while I drank a cappuccino and roasted some more coffee. I am as cheap as they get but we need to enjoy life as well, I think you had a great vision - if you still have it pursue it! Of course I would recommend an Effecta.



I've burned wood since 1959 at my hunting cabin and in 1970 I started heating my home with wood. Over the years life and work changed many times which moved me to different locations but always in the northeast. It wasn't always easy, especially when in the years I was self employed but I was committed. I have been successful enough to afford any heating fuel but I liked wood.
I had a friend that always told me that he wouldn't do wood because harvesting and processing could lead to injury or death. One day after work I went to the wood pile and he jumped on his motorcycle for a ride and was broadsided by an 82 year old woman. He didn't make it. Due to age and health concerns I have decided to stop burning wood when my present stash is exhausted which is a little more than three heating seasons if I make it that far. During this period I will be choosing and installing a fossil fuel unit that will match my heat distribution system as it has evolved since I started with the eko. Something simple that my wife can handle.


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## jasonh (Mar 14, 2016)

So now here is my new dilemma.   I found a brand new never used attack dpx 45 on craigslist and I've been talking to a heatmaster dealer about a 1 season used g100.  Both are about the same price (asking).  I know with the attack I'll need tanks and such, so there's some extra cost. But I won't need heat exchangers per say as with the unpressurized g100.  I'll use about 50' less pipe with the attack.  

The plus for the attack is I can coast on these days that are warmer but still need heat.  The minus is the cost of tanks and piping needed to get it all together.

The plus for the g100 is its just the cost of the boiler and a few other things to make it work and I'm good to go.  The minus is on these warmer but cold days it will idle alot or I'll have ro shut it down when it's too warm and fire it back up at night.  Or just not run it at all.

Just not sure what to do.


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## Buzz Saw (Mar 14, 2016)

Do you prefer indoor or outdoor? Maybe that will answer your dilemma


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## JohnDolz (Mar 14, 2016)

jasonh said:


> So now here is my new dilemma.   I found a brand new never used attack dpx 45 on craigslist and I've been talking to a heatmaster dealer about a 1 season used g100.  Both are about the same price (asking).  I know with the attack I'll need tanks and such, so there's some extra cost. But I won't need heat exchangers per say as with the unpressurized g100.  I'll use about 50' less pipe with the attack.
> 
> The plus for the attack is I can coast on these days that are warmer but still need heat.  The minus is the cost of tanks and piping needed to get it all together.
> 
> ...


Not sure how much cost you are factoring in on top of the cost of just the boiler but based on my costs (and others that I have seen posed around here) using some repurposed propane tanks will not add very much (%) t the total cost of the project. If that is the way you want to go I would not let the tank cost deter me,


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## lotawood (Mar 14, 2016)

My propane tank for storage was cheaper than most of the other control items; like a pressure relief valve or a zone valve.

Storage is a game changer for some people related to convenience and efficiency.


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## JohnDolz (Mar 14, 2016)

lotawood said:


> My propane tank for storage was cheaper than most of the other control items; like a pressure relief valve or a zone valve.
> 
> Storage is a game changer for some people related to convenience and efficiency.


I completely agree on both points:

* by using storage and mixing to use low flow temps, I almost forget to go start fires
* the cost of the tanks ended up being a small piece of the total pie


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## jasonh (Mar 15, 2016)

JohnDolz said:


> Not sure how much cost you are factoring in on top of the cost of just the boiler but based on my costs (and others that I have seen posed around here) using some repurposed propane tanks will not add very much (%) t the total cost of the project. If that is the way you want to go I would not let the tank cost deter me,



IF I go with new  (repurposed) tanks from smokelessheat it would be about $2800 for 2 500 gallon tanks with all the fittings already on them and the system to stack them.  I'm sure if I looked around more I could get some tanks already done for less....maybe.  I only want to do this once so I really want to think it through and not second guess my decision 5 years down the road.


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## infinitymike (Mar 15, 2016)

jasonh said:


> IF I go with new  (repurposed) tanks from smokelessheat it would be about $2800 for 2 500 gallon tanks with all the fittings already on them and the system to stack them.  I'm sure if I looked around more I could get some tanks already done for less....maybe.  I only want to do this once so I really want to think it through and not second guess my decision 5 years down the road.




PM me, I have a guy in PA who sells reconditioned tanks of all sizes, CHEAP. My friend bought two 500 gallon tanks for $700, I hope this is the year I do storage too.


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## Buzz Saw (Mar 15, 2016)

infinitymike said:


> PM me, I have a guy in PA who sells reconditioned tanks of all sizes, CHEAP. My friend bought two 500 gallon tanks for $700, I hope this is the year I do storage too.


Business might pick up if you advertise for him.  Is it OK if I PM you for contact info? I've been hunting local but no hits yet.


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## infinitymike (Mar 15, 2016)

Buzz Saw said:


> Business might pick up if you advertise for him.  Is it OK if I PM you for contact info? I've been hunting local but no hits yet.



I thought the same thing and didnt type his name or number for fear that he won't have any when I call him.


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