# Approximately just as cheap to run the chevy volt on gas as electricity



## georgepds (Nov 16, 2015)

Just purchased a chevy volt.. a really sweet ride.  Now I’m doing some calculations to compare the cost of electricity and gas per mile

By my account, these days of low cost gas, it’s as cheap to run the volt on gas (at ~$2/gallon and 40 mpg)  as it is to run on electricity (at 15 cents/ kwh and 3 miles/kwh). Both come out to 5 cents/mile

In my case I have an electric company credit for overproduction by my solar panels, and I have to use the electricity somehow. So my marginal electric cost is 0 cents/kwh, and , neglecting NRC , it’s cheaper to use electricity… but if I had to buy the electricity from the power company, it would be a toss up


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## Highbeam (Nov 16, 2015)

georgepds said:


> Just purchased a chevy volt.. a really sweet ride.  Now I’m doing some calculations to compare the cost of electricity and gas per mile
> 
> By my account, these days of low cost gas, it’s as cheap to run the volt on gas (at ~$2/gallon and 40 mpg)  as it is to run on electricity (at 15 cents/ kwh and 3 miles/kwh). Both come out to 5 cents/mile
> 
> In my case I have an electric company credit for overproduction by my solar panels, and I have to use the electricity somehow. So my marginal electric cost is 0 cents/kwh, and , neglecting NRC , it’s cheaper to use electricity… but if I had to buy the electricity from the power company, it would be a toss up



Great point.


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## Circus (Nov 16, 2015)

Been shopping for a 8sh year old car. Hybrids are about half the price. Gotta figure labor and new batteries every so often. Works out to be about half the cars value. Does using the batteries less make them last longer?  Lead acid batteries do.


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## woodgeek (Nov 16, 2015)

My gaswagon is managing 22 mpg, my gas costs $2.50, and my EV gets 3.5 miles/kWh for 16 cents/kWh.

So, my gaswagon is 11.4 cents/mi while my EV is 4.6 cents/mi.

The problem is your Volt gas mileage is too good.


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## begreen (Nov 16, 2015)

We still have the balance working in favor of electricity but our power is cheaper @ .10/kwh and gas is more expensive @ $2.99 for hi test. (Remember the Volt takes high octane gas, not regular.) In the summer it's a no brainer, solar panels run the car and house. Also, we've never gotten 40mpg with the gas generator driven, but most of that mileage is at freeway speeds. 37mpg ave. per gas tank full is the best we've gotten so far.


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## georgepds (Nov 17, 2015)

begreen said:


> ...Remember the Volt takes high octane gas, not regular.) ....



The first generation volt takes premium gas, the second generation volt takes regular gas


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## begreen (Nov 17, 2015)

You got a second generation? Lucky you! Looks like they really listened to us gen 1 owners and made a lot of nice improvements. Gen2 are not sold in our state yet. 

Regular gas locally is $2.69 so electric still wins a $0.10/kwh.


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## georgepds (Nov 17, 2015)

begreen said:


> You got a second generation? Lucky you. They are not sold in our state yet. Regular gas here is $2.69 so electric still wins a $0.10/kwh.



Yes, it's a 2016 LT, and it is sweet. The last car I drove for ~ 14 years, a 2002 Chevy Prizm ( a Toyota Corolla in Chevy skin, made at the old NUMMI plant now occupied by Tesla)

Over the past two years I've generated about 6 MWH surplus with roof top solar ( and made quite a bit of cash selling SRECS).I haven't paid an electric bill in years. My electric company will issue a credit, but not a check, so the volt is my way of using that excess production.


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## begreen (Nov 17, 2015)

Excellent. Sounds like it's much cheaper for you to run on (solar) electric too.


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## woodsmaster (Nov 18, 2015)

gas is 1.79 here now !!


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## maple1 (Nov 18, 2015)

We're still over a buck a litre...


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## nola mike (Nov 18, 2015)

maple1 said:


> We're still over a buck a litre...


Isn't that a looney a litre? (What's a litre?  )


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## dougstove (Nov 19, 2015)

$C1/l ~ $2.84USD/gallon

We pay gas tax rather than highway tolls, more or less.


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## georgepds (Nov 24, 2015)

FWIIW

Because I work away from home 3 days a week I use gas as well as electricity to power the Chevy Volt. Just checked the energy information display this morning and found  that my volt does get, in real world  conditions, ~3 mi/kwh and ~ 40 mpg on the ICE

Makes it a little easier on me when I have to fill up at the end of the 3 day period. Once I retire I intend to seriously use up the excess electricity I have produced.


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## P51mustang (Nov 26, 2015)

I've been admiring the Chevy Volt for years.  I think they're a fantastic American vehicle and would consider buying one if I was in the market for a car.  I'm hoping that someday the technology and design of the Volt will make its way into a hybrid truck or CUV.


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2015)

Someday is now, though not cheap.
http://www.viamotors.com/


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## P51mustang (Dec 2, 2015)

begreen said:


> Someday is now, though not cheap.
> http://www.viamotors.com/



It seems all these after market conversions are really expensive and have been around for years.  What I someday hope for is the actual manufacturers mass producing trucks, CUV's, etc. with Volt type technology so the prices are more manageable for the average consumer.  

The latest dip and what is expected to be a long term trend in the price of gas doesn't help of course.


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## begreen (Dec 2, 2015)

Via is relatively new and based on the Volt technology with a larger battery and motors.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 6, 2015)

I think I paid $2.21 on my last fill up. I've seen it as low as 2.13 this week.  I pay something like 20 cents per kWh.  


I think you should account for your cost of solar installation in your figures as that sizable investment makes it possible to get lower cost electricity.  I'm not sure exactly how one would do that though.  At least not to get a per kWh number.  Real estate has a 40 year amortization schedule, but I don't think that would be fair to calculate solar using those numbers.  I think the panels are supposed to have a 20 year guaranty?


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 6, 2015)

Google -fu and you shall find...

http://www.seia.org/policy/finance-tax/depreciation-solar-energy-property-macrs


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## georgepds (Dec 6, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I think I paid $2.21 on my last fill up. I've seen it as low as 2.13 this week.  I pay something like 20 cents per kWh.
> 
> 
> I think you should account for your cost of solar installation in your figures as that sizable investment makes it possible to get lower cost electricity.  I'm not sure exactly how one would do that though.  At least not to get a per kWh number.  Real estate has a 40 year amortization schedule, but I don't think that would be fair to calculate solar using those numbers.  I think the panels are supposed to have a 20 year guaranty?


Thats why I said Non Recurring Cost, or atleast I think I did

Here in Ma solar has a capital cost payback of approx 4 years... much less than the life of the car


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## maple1 (Dec 6, 2015)

I'd like to see some numbers for that 4 year payback.


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## georgepds (Dec 6, 2015)

maple1 said:


> I'd like to see some numbers for that 4 year payback.


From the vendor....

Good Afternoon,

  How are you?  Thank you for giving me a few extra days to get everything out to you, this weekend has been interesting to say the least.  I've updated your proposal to reflect some of your questions in our last email.   You were correct, my dimensions for your original solar array were a bit off.  Your 11 panel SolarWorld array has been reduced to a 10 panel array because of those changes.  I've also formatted a new proposal to compare a 10, 16, and 20 panel SolarWorld array for you side by side.  Below I will go over some key figures for a 20 panel array.

  I'll be using an inflation rate of 4.5% for your utility rate (usually closer to 5%) and an SREC price of $285.

20 SolarWorld 250W Panels (6,105 kWh or 6.105 SREC's a year)
Using 20 SolarWorld 250W panels we will cover 283% of you current utility bill.
Your total investment, after all tax credit and rebates, will be $11,005*.
You will break even in year 3.
By year 10 you will have made $18,279 in profit.
  *Your Federal Tax Credit will be available the year following your installation and can be broken up over the course of 4 years.  Your state tax credit will be available the year following your installation and is capped at $1,000.

  Please let me know if you have any questions regarding this proposal, I hope these figures look good for you and we can get your paperwork started this month. Again the sooner we have in queue, the sooner we can get your system installed.  Thanks again for the patience and have a great day!


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## maple1 (Dec 7, 2015)

So, in the 10 years in that, a 5000w system will generate $29,283 in revenue.

(11,005 payback first 3 + 18,279 profit year 3 to year 10).

That's about $3000/year. Using the yield figure quoted of 6105 kwh/yr, that works out to $0.50/kwh.

Either I'm really missing something, or somebodys math is really fudgey.

How much does electricity cost in Ma?


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## woodgeek (Dec 7, 2015)

It figures in the price of SRECs in MA, currently offering 28.5 cents/kWh, methinks?

I also think the 4.5% energy inflation is quite unlikely over the next 10 years, as is the assumption that the SREC price will maintain near this level.


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## maple1 (Dec 7, 2015)

OK - but that's still only $1739/year revenue. Which would be a 6+ year payback.

I ran some quick numbers for my situation where I'm at a couple years ago, and concluded there would be a 20 year +/- payback. We don't have much for incentives though, and no SREC or buyback arrangement.


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## georgepds (Dec 7, 2015)

maple1 said:


> OK - but that's still only $1739/year revenue. Which would be a 6+ year payback.
> 
> I ran some quick numbers for my situation where I'm at a couple years ago, and concluded there would be a 20 year +/- payback. We don't have much for incentives though, and no SREC or buyback arrangement.



Not here in Ma. The net metering, state and federal incentives, state rebates, and SREC payments make a big difference

Here are the detailed  numbers from the vendor for a 10 panel system, without inflation..   Looking at the details he had electricity a bit high (.28 / kwh, it's more like 0.25 in the winter and 0.15 in the summer)... but he also has SREC a little low ( he had $285 , the most recent ones have sold for $439). The solar energy  production numbers are the most accurate. The initial cost was actually a little lower. I got an additional rebate/watt installed because my house assessment is less than the median for the county

From the vendor...


PV Material Details:
Solar Panel Manufacturer Solar World
Solar Panel Model SW 250
Total Number of Solar Panels 10
Total Solar Panel Wattage (STC) 2,500
Inverter Model Enphase

System Cost Details:
Total System Cost Without Rebate  $11,450
Minus Rebate   $2,000
Final Cost to You  $9,450
Rebate Percentage of Total System Cost 17.5%
Amount Of Federal & State Tax Credit   $3,835
Final Cost (after Federal Tax Credit of 30%, State Tax
Credit and MassCEC Rebate)  $5,615
Total Estimated Yearly Solar Kilowatt Hours Produced 3,053

First Year Estimated Electricity Cost Savings in Dollars $870
Estimated S-REC Income $870
Profit Generated After 10 Years $7,803
Estimated Payback Year 4
Estimated Yearly ROI 24%


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 8, 2016)

begreen said:


> Someday is now, though not cheap.
> http://www.viamotors.com/


Im seeing 2012 -2013 mint condition volts for sale locally for around $15000. If i had the slightest use for a small sedan id grab one today.
Im thinking of grabbing one out of sheer curiosity and the super low price. 
I hope someday these bargain prices will come in the form of a pickup or SUV/Van style which are the only 2 types of vehicles i have any use for.


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## georgepds (Apr 8, 2016)

The cars come new for about 31 to 33 k.. After the 10k rebate (7.5 fed 2.5 state) thats about 21 to 23 k off the lot.. so an older one could depreciate 6 to 8 k in a couple of years... The 2nd gen goes farther on electricity (54 mile) and gets better  gas mileage (40 mpg) than gen 1


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2016)

I think it's more like 33K to 40K for the Volt. No state rebate here. 2nd gen has many nice improvements in addition to the increase range.


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## georgepds (Apr 9, 2016)

Just bougt one new , low end, no dodads, for 31 k in November (21 k with state and fed rebate).... GM had about 2k in incentives

One key was to get supplier price...offered to GM employes,..but also through Costco auto to all with a Costco card in the winter holiday season.That and Costco gives you a $700 card for using their service.

The GM bonuses stack on top of the Costco supplier price

If you go high end,and load up on the toys, and ignore the available discounts and bonuses, you can push up the price to the range you mention


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## georgepds (Apr 9, 2016)

begreen said:


> I think it's more like 33K to 40K for the Volt. No state rebate here. 2nd gen has many nice improvements in addition to the increase range.


 Yes..


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