# Planning an Eko 40 installation



## wolfcreek (Dec 29, 2011)

Iâ€™ve decided to install an Eko 40 with 1000 gallons of storage to my place in Montana. Overall, my choice of an Eko boiler is based on the vast amount of information on their operation that is available. It seems all gasifiers require tweaking and ingenuity, having the information resource is vital. Additionally, the Eko appears to have a good track record. It reminds me of the small block Chevy. 

The load will be a 36 X 36 high ceiling shop adjacent to a two story 20 X 36 residence (ground floor utility room, art studio, entry + upstairs living area) with a DHW HX. I also want some potential for an expansion of a 24 X 36 guest cottage.  The Eko 40 with storage will meet those needs with reasonable reload periods. Fuel is mostly pine and fir. Calculation fit the boiler size.

Iâ€™ll install this myself, augmenting the current electric boiler supplying the residence with staple up hydronic that has worked very well. The shop will use a large Modine exchanger. 

A few puzzles I have are as follows:

Currently I run an RV type glycol mix in the hydronic system. Iâ€™m not opposed to keeping to this in the new system, even at the added cost, for system and freeze protection but I wonder if this may cause issues I unaware of. Iâ€™m interested in other alternative suggestions. 

Since this is a new installation, I want to use the latest in valves and pumps. So, Iâ€™m looking for recommendations as to models, manufacturers and sources. Like anyone, Iâ€™m looking for simplicity and durability.

Iâ€™d ask for input on one other issue. Iâ€˜m looking for suggestions on a good inverter for backup power. Iâ€™ll run a bank of 4 deep cycle batteries with solar/generator charging capability. But Iâ€™m not familiar as to how refined the systemâ€™s power supply is for pump motor operation and electronics. I have experienced that some motors perform poorly on conventional inverter power. Input welcome on this concern.

I appreciate any and all input.


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## Clarkbug (Dec 29, 2011)

Welcome!

I cant comment on the Eko at all, but Ill take a swing at the other items.

Glycol will impact your heat transfer numbers as opposed to straight water.  It might be a non-issue, but if your calculations are very close, you might need to make sure you take this into account.  Its also not going to be cheap with that much system volume, I wouldnt think.

I have read lots here about Wilo pumps, some of the Grundfos Alpha pumps, and actually Bell & Gossett now has a new variable speed circ pump as well.  They are definitely more expensive than a standard circulator, but use very little power.  Others here can talk more to the pumps, as I havent used any of them myself.

Good luck, and keep us posted on how things progress!


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## stee6043 (Dec 29, 2011)

Good choice on a boiler (although I am a bit biased).  And welcome to the board!

Do you have an idea of what your actual heat load is (btu/hr)?  It sounds like you feel the 40 is properly sized for your application but I'm curious what the details are that led to this belief.  

First thought - it's likely you will NOT see typical user output from an EKO burning exclusively soft woods.  I can't tell you how much difference there will be but I do know the rated outputs for the EKO are based on hardwood (very dry hardwood).  I personally burned some pine in my EKO for a few weeks and hated every second of it.  I couldn't get a good bed of coals to save my life.  That being said there are gasser users on this site that use exclusively soft woods and they perform quite nicely.

Second thought - glycol will decrease your system efficiency.  And I believe it may even be significant.  Less efficient = more wood.  The EKO has a built in freeze protection feature to trigger pumps but I'd also recommend a manual "pump on" setup for your system if you don't anticipate extended hard freezes. Glycol is just one big expensive mess.

I have run Taco and Grundfos pumps.  I vastly prefer the Grundfos, and they cost about the same.

I use an APC UPS for my battery back up.  Bought it off ebay for a steal.  Depending on how much you're trying to power these computer UPS's can be quite an easy solution...


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## huffdawg (Dec 29, 2011)

I agree on the grundfos statement Stee  
-Easier and quicker to wire 
-built in threaded strain relief
-quiet
-3 speed

I have 1 taco and 7 grundfos

Huff


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 29, 2011)

wolfcreek said:
			
		

> Iâ€™ve decided to install an Eko 40 with 1000 gallons of storage to my place in Montana. Overall, my choice of an Eko boiler is based on the vast amount of information on their operation that is available. It seems all gasifiers require tweaking and ingenuity, having the information resource is vital. Additionally, the Eko appears to have a good track record. It reminds me of the small block Chevy.
> 
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> I appreciate any and all input.




Welcome, I guess everyone has car analogies on their mind this week.


The eko is a great choice, but I went with BioMass Wood boiler -- guess I have the BMW of wood boilers?


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## huffdawg (Dec 29, 2011)

[The eko is a great choice, but I went with BioMass Wood boiler -- guess I have the BMW of wood boilers?[/quote]

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 30, 2011)

wolfcreek said:
			
		

> Iâ€™ve decided to install an Eko 40 with 1000 gallons of storage to my place in Montana. Overall, my choice of an Eko boiler is based on the vast amount of information on their operation that is available. It seems all gasifiers require tweaking and ingenuity, having the information resource is vital. Additionally, the Eko appears to have a good track record. It reminds me of the small block Chevy.
> 
> The load will be a 36 X 36 high ceiling shop adjacent to a two story 20 X 36 residence (ground floor utility room, art studio, entry + upstairs living area) with a DHW HX. I also want some potential for an expansion of a 24 X 36 guest cottage.  The Eko 40 with storage will meet those needs with reasonable reload periods. Fuel is mostly pine and fir. Calculation fit the boiler size.
> 
> ...


The tweaking & ingenuity you speak of is not required with the real fine Lambda boilers like Froling & Effecta, Randy


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## taxidermist (Dec 30, 2011)

mikefrommaine said:
			
		

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LOL

Eko = Ford

Bio = Chevy

Froling = BMW


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## henfruit (Dec 30, 2011)

Eyebrows,You forgot the Vigas it also is a lambda unit. I would not buy an eko. The company that imports them is very dishonest.They say they are tested by omni labs.Well guess what they are not.Just give omni a call and they will give you the low down on the importer.


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## Tennman (Dec 30, 2011)

I shared the same EKO logic. It has a large user base and is proven. Went to pick up my EKO 60 and could not resist the design enhancements of the BioMass. The EKO and BioMass are kinda brother sister boilers (too complex to explain here). Definitely not the same market longevity but absolutely has features to make you life operating a gasser easier. As a 3 year BioMass user I would definitely make the same decision. I'll never bash the EKO which became a standard in the market. But when I opened the upper chamber door and my eyeballs where looking at the top plate I could not imagine how to avoid lots of smoke spillage. On our biomass the door opening is way below the ceiling of the upper chamber and I still get smoke, mostly because I operate without storage and reload with a fire still going. I believe you can't go wrong with the EKO, but the market has not stood still as far as products with design enhancements. Two years ago I predicted the next generation EKO would look a lot like the biomass. Hasn't happened yet. I'm guessing the EKO design is over 20-25 years old. Biomass is maybe 5-8. Tough call since we biomass users don't have anywhere near the history of the EKO but so far so good. As a design engineer I'm always improving our products at the risk of reliability simply because if you don't improve your products the market will pass you by. Best wishes and enjoy the research.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 30, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> Eyebrows,You forgot the Vigas it also is a lambda unit. I would not buy an eko. The company that imports them is very dishonest.They say they are tested by omni labs.Well guess what they are not.Just give omni a call and they will give you the low down on the importer.


Henfruit, I put the Froling & Effecta in a class by themselves because they use Lambda feedback for control of primary & secondary air independantly. The Vigas just uses Lambda to control fan speed I'm told. I would love to have a Vigas Lambda though, I couldn't get my Atmos out fast enough as it requires lots of tinkering when the Samson flap is up. Randy


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## nrford (Dec 30, 2011)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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Agree with Randy my Effecta is an ease to run. Start the fire and walk away!!


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## wolfcreek (Dec 30, 2011)

All very amusing. My reference to a small block Chevy was to express my desire for a simple, durable system that I, alone, can optimize and maintain. Iâ€™ve spent a career servicing high end exotic cars with complex emission systems and electronic controls. I may be paranoid because I work in the â€œERâ€ but the last thing I want to worry about is having a lambda probe circuit fail during a week of -40F weather and trying to diagnose and acquire parts from a remote location. Hence KISS.

The BioMass-40 units look attractive but I have yet to see them embraced by the larger community, possibly because they are a newer unit. As to whoâ€™s honest and who isnâ€™t, there seems to be a lot of snake oil in the industry as a whole and I find a lot more credibility in this forum than any commercial website. Once again reinforcing self-reliance.

I like to kid around as much as anyone and enjoy the banter, but I do need some input as Iâ€™m a bit particular about what I do and want to have this project planned out carefully with minimal surprises at install. Doing what Iâ€™ve done for a living, you might appreciate the value I place in learning from others trials and mistakes and doing it right the first time.

Back to brass tacks, the question was raised about a heat load figure. Iâ€™m right at 75,000 BTU estimated (crudely calculated). Currently I heat the residential area, a 17,500 BTU load with a 31,000 electric boiler. I like a reserve factor of 2, so I believe a boiler with capacity around 150,000 BTU to be desirable. My wood is virtually free for the rest of my lifetime so my next consideration is the convenience factor of time between loads.

To the issue of water treatment, I puzzle as to how effective a pressurized system is in corrosion resistance. Propane tanks are steel, yet Iâ€™m seeing many suggest copper or stainless dip tubes and diverters to avoid stratification in the tanks. I have a tubing bender and my thoughts were to â€œpigtailâ€ steel inlet and outlet tubes in the same rotation to effect a good mixing in the tanks without creating restrictions. Would I be as concerned with these tubes being corrosive as I would the tanks themselves? Or will pressurization and simple water treatment without glycol control corrosion?

Again I appreciate input. I make an effort to search out an answer before I ask a question, but as my design develops Iâ€™ll probably have two more questions for every question answered. Thanks all.

Tennman â€“ Appreciate your comments. Iâ€™ll keep an open mind.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 30, 2011)

wolfcreek said:
			
		

> To the issue of water treatment, I puzzle as to how effective a pressurized system is in corrosion resistance. Propane tanks are steel, yet Iâ€™m seeing many suggest copper or stainless dip tubes and diverters to avoid stratification in the tanks.


Typo? You want stratification in the tanks/tank. Has nothing to do with corrosion. Loading units work very well for tank charging although I should have bought the next size up Laddomat the 21-60. You might want to consider either a Laddomat or Termovar loading unit, Randy


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## ewdudley (Dec 30, 2011)

Since you are planning for a simpler boiler suitable for owner optimization and maintenance, I would suggest that best feature to plan on adding would be end-of-burn draft fan shutdown with positive draft inlet port closure.  This gives the ability to stop the burn when there is some charcoal left.  This leftover charcoal placed over the gasifier nozzle ignites in literally a few seconds with a propane torch, then you pile on the fuel and walk away.  The lambda-controlled units get this feature 'free' as a byproduct of being able to shut off both primary and secondary air flow when the flue temperature drops, but lambda control is not necessary to pull it off.

As for glycol, for the cost of a thousand gallons of glycol, a simple freeze-prevention circulation scheme with some small amount of supplemental propane or electric heat should keep the house and system above freezing quite easily, especially if there's any solar gain during the day to work with.

The latest in valves and pumps would definitely include the Wilo Stratos or Grunfos Alpha electronically commutated motor isobaric pumps that can maintain constant pressure to supply multiple zones as they turn on and off.

If possible, it would be nice to have some significant percentage of storage above and adjacent to the boiler.  This will allow use of a Laddomat or Termovar loading unit with integral low-resistance backflow preventer which acts as a power failure heat dump subsystem by allowing thermosiphon flow through the boiler to storage.  But to do this you may need to put the tank on a stand and have a port added on the bottom.

Another killer feature is having a DHW 'tankless' coil immersed in the top of storage through a 4 inch collared port added to the tank for this purpose.

Maintaining proper water chemistry in a sealed pressurized system is well understood and easy to do.

--ewd


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## Hunderliggur (Dec 30, 2011)

With a Paxo 40 (which in my opinion is a lot like a yellow Eko 40) I am very happy with the results.  A freeze protection circuit to circulate the 1000 gallons of water would take a LONG time to freeze from 100F (or whatever).  Sounds like you are off-grid (or considering it).  Running a circulator for freeze protection is probably the lowest energy solution you can get.  You can probably buy a basic automatic generator for the price of the gylcol.

For inverters, Xantrex and Outback are good.  I have a Trace (bought by Xantrex).  Backwoodssolar.com is a GREAT source for information and equipment.

And yes, I like the simplicity of my unit.  I have a Taco main circulator to storage and Grundfoss circulators for three zones.


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## huffdawg (Dec 30, 2011)

taxidermist said:
			
		

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Lol.   Would of bought a Froling if I didnt need $10,000 worth of copper ,pumps,black iron,storage tanks etc.


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## huffdawg (Dec 30, 2011)

[quote author="wolfcreek" date="1325226742"]All very amusing. My reference to a small block Chevy was to express my desire for a simple, durable system that I, alone, can optimize and maintain. Iâ€™ve spent a career servicing high end exotic cars with complex emission systems and electronic controls. I may be paranoid because I work in the â€œERâ€ but the last thing I want to worry about is having a lambda probe circuit fail during a week of -40F weather and trying to diagnose and acquire parts from a remote location. Hence KISS.

I agree ,I work on medium to large marine diesels. There is  something to say about  older  more simple  technoligy    Murlees ,White Superior's,  E.M.D.'s Paxtons.  worked on several of these engines well into their 4th. decade of service.  and still ticking.    





BackTo the issue of water treatment, I puzzle as to how effective a pressurized system is in corrosion resistance. Propane tanks are steel, yet Iâ€™m seeing many suggest copper or stainless dip tubes and diverters to avoid stratification in the tanks. I have a tubing bender and my thoughts were to â€œpigtailâ€ steel inlet and outlet tubes in the same rotation to effect a good mixing in the tanks without creating restrictions. Would I be as concerned with these tubes being corrosive as I would the tanks themselves? Or will pressurization and simple water treatment without glycol control corrosion?

On the ship I work on our  closed system  heating  has a capacity of around  3000 gal of fresh water media .  We also do not treat the media. And over the last 5 years corrosion has been minimal.  I have only had my EKO 40 firing now for a couple of weeks so I  can't give you an honest opinion about corrosion yet.
But there are many here that could.
I chose the EKO for the same reason as you . It seemed like it was the most widely used boiler here on this site and haven't seen many serious complaints about them.


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## henfruit (Dec 30, 2011)

Vigas= Rolls royce  Paxo is made by eko.There is along story about all the boiler makers from poland and slovakia that is not known by this fourm.


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## mikefrommaine (Dec 30, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> There is along story about all the boiler makers from poland and slovakia that is not known by this fourm.



Do tell.


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## jebatty (Dec 30, 2011)

Burning softwood: I have burned nearly exclusively pine and some aspen, now in my 5th heating season; both burn fine. Burn what you have. All wood has about the same btu output per pound.

Boiler rated output: Based on my experience estimate effective boiler output over a burn load at about 70-75% of rated maximum output. 

Heat load: sounds like you don't have in-floor radiant or low temperature radiant panels in either the shop or the house. Those are so sweet compared to moving hot air or using high temperature radiant. My shop is 32 x 48 x 14; well insulated, in-floor radiant. Average maximum btuh load winter of 2010-2011, with low temps in the mid -30'sF, was around 18,000 btuh; typical was 14,000 btuh with temps -5 to 15F. Calculated load was 35,000 btuh at -35F.

Storage capacity: if the intent is to heat from storage for any length of time between burns, then realizing this goal is very dependent on what water temp you need to meet your needs. if you need 160F water, and if your actual load is 30,000 btuh, and if you can heat storage to 190F, then you have about 8 hours of heat storage capacity in 1000 gal of water before you need to burn again. If you can use water down to 130F, add another 8 hours; and if down to 100F, then add another 8 hours. 

Burn times (with pine): based on my Tarm Solo 40 (140,000 btuh rated), a full load is about 2.5 - 4 hours.

Corrosion: in a pressurized, closed system, with initial water treatment, about 0. Use proper connections (typically brass) between steel and copper to eliminate galvanic corrosion.

Backup power for heating system: I think the most economical and simple is an inverter generator, although a non-inverter may also work just fine. Honda and Yamaha are top brands, but I just bought a Champion 2000 at about 1/2 the price. The Champion will power my system on the eco engine setting, and fuel use is very low. If you keep your heating system components on a separate circuit(s), then switch-over is very easy with a transfer switch, although I installed my system with plugs to a power strip to an outlet, so an extension cord to the generator from the power strip is my switch-over.

Other: pay close attention to pipe size, gpm flow rate, pump head, and btuh requirements and make sure you size pipe and circulators to provide the needed gpm's to meet btuh requirements. Making mistakes here are expensive to fix.

I wish you first class success in your venture. I could not be more satisfied with mine. And my Solo 40 is about as low-tech as you will find for a quality wood gasification boiler.


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## ewdudley (Dec 30, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Use proper connections (typically brass) between steel and copper to eliminate galvanic corrosion.


In theory, and according to what I have observed from working on forty year old systems with direct copper to cast and/or black iron connections, it can be true there is no need for brass between copper and iron in a sealed pressurized hydronic system.

Likewise galvanized pipe is A-OK in sealed pressurized hydronic systems, except for systems filled with antifreeze.

--ewd


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## Duetech (Dec 30, 2011)

When I burned pine and spruce in my EKO I would get a lot of charcoal "blow by" in the secondary chamber but then my unit idled a lot. I believe Nofossil burned pine a lot , for at least one year think, and I don't recall him mentioning any difficulty with blow by and he ran with storage. So if you are running flat out without idling because of storage you should not have trouble with high ash and charcoal build up in the secdondary. Other low density hard wood would produce blow by but not like pine or spruce but they did produce quite a bit more ash than high density hardwoods.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 30, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> Vigas= Rolls royce  Paxo is made by eko.There is along story about all the boiler makers from poland and slovakia that is not known by this fourm.


Yes Henfruit the Vigas looks like a nice boiler & I'm at least partially wrong as you pointed out in a PM. The secondary is servo flapped & controlled with Lambda feedback. If the fan speed is also under the Lambda then you would have independant primary & secondary air control. I would hope that someone who actually knows these boilers would clarify this. Either way, irregardless, these look like very nice boilers, Randy


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## jebatty (Dec 30, 2011)

> I believe Nofossil burned pine a lot , for at least one year think, and I donâ€™t recall him mentioning any difficulty with blow by and he ran with storage. So if you are running flat out without idling because of storage you should not have trouble with high ash and charcoal build up in the secdondary. Other low density hard wood would produce blow by but not like pine or spruce but they did produce quite a bit more ash than high density hardwoods.



As mentioned, nearly exclusive pine for 4 years and now in the 5th year of burning. Pine does not produce much ash at all, aspen does produce fine fly ash, about 1-2 cups after 6 hours of burning. No blow-by of charcoal of any significance at all with either pine or aspen. No experience to any extent with other hardwoods.


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## pwschiller (Dec 30, 2011)

mikefrommaine said:
			
		

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Yes Henfruit, as a reseller of Slovakian-made Vigas boilers, what information are you privy to?


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## huffdawg (Dec 30, 2011)

Do not  weld  cast fittings  onto your storage tanks. :red:


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## henfruit (Dec 30, 2011)

Nice wood shed peter,I think i told you the story.


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## pwschiller (Dec 30, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

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I appreciate you showing me your system Patrick, but you never told me the story. In fact, I'm fairly certain that you never even mentioned Poland or Slovakia. What have the Slovakians done to produce the "Rolls Royce" of boilers?


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 31, 2011)

As a previous EKO 40 owner/operator (for 3 years) I can tell you that the effecta lambda 35 I now own/operate (this is my 2nd year of operation) is much easier to start fires in, requires much less attention once the burn is going (due to the Lambda sensor and individual stepper motor control), consumes less wood and produces less emissions in addition to looking very "sexy" (OK, if not sexy I must say it does look very nice).

Effecta has been using the Lambda sensor/stepper motor system for 7 years and thus has a very good history with it. The company has been producing boilers in Sweden for almost 30 years and also produces pellet boilers and solar collector systems along with buffer tanks (this fact should combat any concerns/comments about being a new prodcut to the market). The boiler also is capable of running without the Lambda sensor input if the sensor were to fail (a few simple key strokes on the control panel turns the Lambda sensor ciurcuit off).

Regarding pressurized storage, it is much simplier and in my opinion more efficient since it does not require a heat exchanger. Once the oxygen in the boiler/tank system has been "killed" it's very difficult to have corrosion occuring without oxygen (much like it is impossile to have combustion occur without oxygen). Not to mention, if you have propane tanks availabe locally it is very inexpensive to create.

I would think twice about spending the extra money on a variable speed circ. pump for the boiler portion/circuit which heats up the water batteries (storage tanks) becuase it only runs for 5-6 hours per day when heating up the tanks. At a consumption of 80 watts (with pump on high speed) thats approx. 400-500 watts per 5-6 hour burn cycle. In my area I'm paying about 11-12 cents per 1,000 watts and thus that means it takes little more than a nickle to operate the pump on my laddomat 21-60 loading valve for one complete burn cycle. However, I would seriously consider these pumps for the circuit which takes water from the watter batteries to the house as it will operate much more often.

My system is a very simple system. I pump hot water from the effecta lambda 35 boiler to the top of the storage tanks with one circ pump (laddomat 21-60 loading valve) and then pump water for the top of the same tanks to my residential heating system which consists of a combination of radiant floor heat and baseboard. I use an Azel Technologies switching relay to control the different zones in my house and the system works beautiful!

I hope this helps you in making your final decission as to boiler type/brand and system design/construction.

PS - I have included a photo of my effecta lambda 35 boiler and 2 x 500 stacked propane tanks storage (underneath the blue foam box) for your review (the front cover on the effecta lambda boiler is removed in this photo so that the individual stepper motor draft controls can be seen). 

Thanks,

Brian


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## huffdawg (Dec 31, 2011)

Effecta Boiler User said:
			
		

> As a previous EKO 40 owner/operator (for 3 years) I can tell you that the effecta lambda 35 I now own/operate (this is my 2nd year of operation) is much easier to start fires in, requires much less attention once the burn is going (due to the Lambda sensor and individual stepper motor control), consumes less wood and produces less emissions in addition to looking very "sexy" (OK, if not sexy I must say it does look very nice).
> 
> Effecta has been using the Lambda sensor/stepper motor system for 7 years and thus has a very good history with it. The company has been producing boilers in Sweden for almost 30 years and also produces pellet boilers and solar collector systems along with buffer tanks (this fact should combat any concerns/comments about being a new prodcut to the market). The boiler also is capable of running without the Lambda sensor input if the sensor were to fail (a few simple key strokes on the control panel turns the Lambda sensor ciurcuit off).
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How much was your Effecta boiler?


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## nrford (Dec 31, 2011)

Effecta 35kw~ $8000


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## stee6043 (Dec 31, 2011)

I may be called a doubter but I have yet to be convinced that "lambda" control that cannot independantly control primary and secondary air mix is any more effective than altering fan speed. In my humble opinion the Vigas cannot be compared to a Froiling. They are not the same class of boiler. 

I bet the Vigas is easier to start than an EKO. But I'd be shocked if it was measurably more efficient than Tarm/Bio/Eko in an apples to apples comparison. My opinion only.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Dec 31, 2011)

Yes, you are correct!

I compare the effecta and Froling lambda control and operating systems to that of an oxygen acetylene torch (they maintain the correct ratio of primary/secondary inlet air to create a purple/blue flame and the "perfect burn" at all times throughout he entire 5 hour burn cycle). If the oxygen acetalyle torch is adjusted for too much acetylene it has a yellow flame and emits black soot. If the torch is adjusted for oxygen only it will not have a flame. However, once the ratio of oxygen and acetylene is perfected, a nice blue/pruple flame will cut through a 1/2" plate of steel!

When the effecta lambda 35 boiler is first started up it is cold and does not have a complete bed of hot coals. Thus, the lambda control system will default to a 70% primary / 30% secondary draft opening scenario.

Once the smoke/chimney temperature (which is displayed on the control panel) hits 101C the lambda control system then opens up the primary 100% and closes the secondary 100% so that a hot bed of coals is established as soon as possible.

From this point the boiler obliviously gets hotter and then the lambda control system closes the primary draft opening and opens the secondary draft opening in a effort to maintain the Target CO2 % setting. 

This automatic opening and closing of the primary and secondary draft openings occurs throughout the entire 5 hour burn, thus ensuring maximum heat output, minimum wood consumption and minimum emissions.

Hope this helps!

Brian


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 31, 2011)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> I may be called a doubter but I have yet to be convinced that "lambda" control that cannot independantly control primary and secondary air mix is any more effective than altering fan speed. In my humble opinion the Vigas cannot be compared to a Froiling. They are not the same class of boiler.
> 
> I bet the Vigas is easier to start than an EKO. But I'd be shocked if it was measurably more efficient than Tarm/Bio/Eko in an apples to apples comparison. My opinion only.


I don't think the jury is back on that Stee. I thought the same thing you did. The website shows servo control of the secondary through Lambda & doesn't mention how the primary is controlled. If you know exactly how this boilers air is controlled would you please post? I've asked this question of others with no takers. Thanks, Randy


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 31, 2011)

Effecta Boiler User said:
			
		

> Yes, you are correct!
> 
> I compare the effecta and Froling lambda control and operating systems to that of an oxygen acetylene torch (they maintain the correct ratio of primary/secondary inlet air to create a purple/blue flame and the "perfect burn" at all times throughout he entire 5 hour burn cycle). If the oxygen acetalyle torch is adjusted for too much acetylene it has a yellow flame and emits black soot. If the torch is adjusted for oxygen only it will not have a flame. However, once the ratio of oxygen and acetylene is perfected, a nice blue/pruple flame will cut through a 1/2" plate of steel!
> 
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I wouldn't agonize long, deciding between an EKO or an Effecta with Lambda. The OP is worried about a probe failing, I guess thats why I would carry a spare. A lightening strike will take out either boiler so the controller is a non issue to me./// Are you stocking spares for these boilers Brian? I like the fact that secondary air is fed in through the entire nozzle length so unburned gas don't escape. I'm probably overly concerned with emissions as was pointed out to me. Theres worse than being an environmentalist I guess, Randy


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## huffdawg (Dec 31, 2011)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> I may be called a doubter but I have yet to be convinced that "lambda" control that cannot independantly control primary and secondary air mix is any more effective than altering fan speed. In my humble opinion the Vigas cannot be compared to a Froiling. They are not the same class of boiler.
> 
> I bet the Vigas is easier to start than an EKO. But I'd be shocked if it was measurably more efficient than Tarm/Bio/Eko in an apples to apples comparison. My opinion only.



I really cant imagine any boiler being easier to start than  mine .   takes  3 mins.


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## stee6043 (Dec 31, 2011)

huffdawg said:
			
		

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It's the red solo cup. Takes 10 mins off start up, minimum.


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## henfruit (Dec 31, 2011)

Stee,Tell me why the vigas is not in the same class as frohling?(not as pretty) Randy if you look at the cut away of the vigas the primary and secondary air are run by one servo motor with two shutter fan blades. Huff, That long with a full load of wood from torch to start up gasification under a minute.The controler on the Vigas is way advanced than all the boilers out there except the frohling and the effecta.There is an other thing all you eko users should be aware of they are not ul tested.So if you have a fire and your insurance finds out i doubt that you will be covered for your loss.


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## Donl (Dec 31, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> There is an other thing all you eko users should be aware of they are not ul tested.So if you have a fire and your insurance finds out i doubt that you will be covered for your loss.




This is taken from CozyHeat Website:

"The Orlan EKO is currently the most popular gasification wood boiler in America.  This boiler has been our main-stay for over a decade.  We have had almost no problems with this boiler in that many years that is certainly something to be proud of!  Positive draft, easy cleaning handle on side (no need to shut down stove and manually clean),  RK2001UA controller, modulating draft, direct communication with your oil or gas boiler, 2" supply and return ports with American threads.  U.L., CSA, C.A., TUV approved."

Is this not true?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 31, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> Stee,Tell me why the vigas is not in the same class as frohling?(not as pretty) Randy if you look at the cut away of the vigas the primary and secondary air are run by one servo motor with two shutter fan blades. Huff, That long with a full load of wood from torch to start up gasification under a minute.The controler on the Vigas is way advanced than all the boilers out there except the frohling and the effecta.There is an other thing all you eko users should be aware of they are not ul tested.So if you have a fire and your insurance finds out i doubt that you will be covered for your loss.


Henfruit, Unless there are 2 independant servo flaps or at least one servo flap & control of fan speed you cannot adjust ratios in an optimal manner.. So far no one will step up to the plate here & clarify. So I'm just going to assume the ratio is not adjustable as the Froling & Effecta are. Maybe you can do some digging & get some good info Henfruit? Thanks, Randy


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## henfruit (Dec 31, 2011)

Don We can all write what we want you hear.Call omni testing labs and ask them if they have certified the eko? Then tell what the truth is. Randy they do it with one servo motor controlling 2 shutters.The Vigas also has a modulating fan controlled as the tank reaches it set temp.Just because they do it with one servo does not mean it is wrong.Do you think they would spend all that money on r&d and sell a product that did not perform.


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## huffdawg (Dec 31, 2011)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> huffdawg said:
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LOL Stee.  The red solo cup  not only holds rum and coke it will also hold 16 ounces of indian fire starter.


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## HeatFarmer (Dec 31, 2011)

Welcome to the Forum! As I near completion of my EKO 60 with 1100 gallons of storage, my best advice is to read everything on this forum twice BEFORE you commit to any one design!! And if you have imagined the cost of your install, DOUBLE it just for starters...... That being said, you should definitely spring for extra valves, disconnects and quality pumps. I know someday I will get over how much my system has cost to install and once it's up and running stop worrying about costs and start enjoying a house which is warmer than 50 in the winter......


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## huffdawg (Dec 31, 2011)

henfruit said:
			
		

> Stee,Tell me why the vigas is not in the same class as frohling?(not as pretty) Randy if you look at the cut away of the vigas the primary and secondary air are run by one servo motor with two shutter fan blades. Huff, That long with a full load of wood from torch to start up gasification under a minute.The controler on the Vigas is way advanced than all the boilers out there except the frohling and the effecta.There is an other thing all you eko users should be aware of they are not ul tested.So if you have a fire and your insurance finds out i doubt that you will be covered for your loss.



Henfruit what would I do with the all that extra time.      I'm not disputing how good a Vigas is  and I wasn't claiming that the EKO gets to gasification in 3 mins. 
I was stating how long it takes me to light a fire  which includes stuffing the boiler with kindling and firewood  and lighting it with a torch from underneath shutting the door turning the fan on and walking away.   I'm just glad i'm a user: propane is now 93 cents a litre.


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## huffdawg (Dec 31, 2011)

Don L said:
			
		

> henfruit said:
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Don I see TUV stickied onto the back of the boiler  but no CSA or UL.


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## woodsmaster (Dec 31, 2011)

I'm with huff I don't Know how a boiler can get much easier to light unless it loads its self. It takes me 6 min. to fill with wood. 
and four minits after lighting I pull the bypass and its gassing. done in 10 min total for the day. Im sure the lambada increases 
effeciency, but enough to worry about ?


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## Donl (Dec 31, 2011)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> Don L said:
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Same with mine. I don't really care because my boiler is in a small shed that is not insured anyway, but everything else is. I do find it offensive when companies and sales people mislead their customers. As always, buyer beware!


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## stee6043 (Dec 31, 2011)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> henfruit said:
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Exactly. Thanks, Singedbrows.


 If you are not adjusting the primary/secondary RATIO you aren't doing anything other than modulating total air going in. This is the same as adjusting fan speed. Having a system that can actively modulate fan speed/air input is better than our static setups on the EKO but my opinion is that the improvement is likely not measureable for most users. True lambda control, on the other hand, sounds awesome in my opinion. But it also adds a lot more to the spares list and upfront cost. 

Henfruit, other than this mysterious UL claim do you have any other reasonable observations regarding the Orlan EKO?  UL or not I haven't seen too many issues with these boilers other than sub par door seals. Please tell me your disdain for the EKO is based on more than your alleged phone call to Omni labs.


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## henfruit (Jan 1, 2012)

Stee, What is the definition of true lambda? As far as the ul listing it is what is not tested.


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## Tennman (Jan 1, 2012)

FWIW I'm really enjoying this discussion. Learning a lot. Keep it going.


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## wolfcreek (Jan 2, 2012)

henfruit,

Maybe I can actually contribute (instead of take) here. The Greek letter lambda as we're discussing it represents a ratio of air to fuel mixture. I'll give you a synopsis as to the automotive world as that's my background, I think you can gain some insight how it may apply to any manageable combustion process.

Lambda is actually a ratio of air to fuel that is considered perfect. 14.7 to 1.0 (stoichiometeric), for gasoline engines.

The development of the oxygen sensor use in engine emmission control, or as Volvo used the Robert Bosch probe, Lambda sensor, in their Volvo Lambda Sond system, reported a real-time oxygen level in combustion exhaust gasses that was responsive enough to feedback into a control unit allowing minute adjustments to maximize performance while keeping in a very narrow exhaust gas mix. Keeping the exhaust gas mix controlled was vital to the chemistry of a new 3-way catalytic converter that managed NOx (nitrious oxides, a pollutant). Prior to the 3-way catalytic converter, we needed an auxiliary air pump (or smog pump) to add air to the 2-way catalytic converter to effect tailpipe emission requirements. If you owned an early 1980â€™s automobile, you likely suffered the low performance it offered because of the limitations of controlling NOx. There was a maze of pump(s), belts, tubes and hoses to support the add-air function. When the Lambda sensor was added to the emissions system, all the add-air junk went away. Compression ratios increased, bringing performance and efficiency. The overall process of engine management has added decades to the internal combustion engineâ€™s viability in providing suitable power and economy. The introduction of the lambda probe was very significant and has been remarkably successful.


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## huffdawg (Jan 2, 2012)

What's next , a particulate filter and urine canister.  Just kidding Henfruit.  Good info


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## Armaton (Mar 27, 2012)

henfruit said:


> Stee,Tell me why the vigas is not in the same class as frohling?(not as pretty) Randy if you look at the cut away of the vigas the primary and secondary air are run by one servo motor with two shutter fan blades. Huff, That long with a full load of wood from torch to start up gasification under a minute.The controler on the Vigas is way advanced than all the boilers out there except the frohling and the effecta.There is an other thing all you eko users should be aware of they are not ul tested.So if you have a fire and your insurance finds out i doubt that you will be covered for your loss.


 I know this is an older thread, but I was on the New Horizon site browsing, and on the EKO page there is a printable UL sheet for the boilers.


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