# Limit of stove top temperature on NC30



## mywaynow (Jan 8, 2012)

What is the upper range I should use for stove top temp running this stove?  Seeing 650 now, but thinking I should go up.  House temp is not picking up like I would like.  Stove pipe temps are not exceeding 325 regardless of where the top has been.


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## rdust (Jan 8, 2012)

650* not hot enough!  What kind of cold are you dealing with in the "northeast"?

Steel stove with a step I'd wager has a high limit of 800* or so but I wouldn't want to take it there on the regular.


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## GAMMA RAY (Jan 8, 2012)

I start getting a little nervous at 700. It sometimes does get that high (a bit higher maybe 750)but I am still learning the stove and how much wood to put in it. If you are getting 650 stovetop temps and your house still feels cold, you may need to experiment with some fans to move the air around. There are a lot of threads on circulating hot air here. Utilizing a box fan blowing cold air into the stove room works for me as well as the ceiling fans on low clockwise.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 8, 2012)

Mike has said in the past that 750 for a short time on start-up should be OK but not for continuous burns. I run in the range of 550 to 650 most of the time.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Mike has said in the past that 750 for a short time on start-up should be OK but not for continuous burns. I run in the range of 550 to 650 most of the time.



What was the temp in the house when you cranked it up and what is it now. Takes a good amount of time to warm up walls/furniture/knick-knacks and whatever.


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## mywaynow (Jan 8, 2012)

I did have to let the Defiant burn out middle of the night so it was cool engough to handle this morning.  House was down to 66, now up to 68.  Seems the 650 stove top temp on the 30 is not pushing heat like the Defiant did at the same temps.  Once I put the fan on the unit and ran it on low, the top would not exceed 450.  It was getting late in the burn, 3hrs or so, and that did not help either.  I will keep playing/learning.


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## SlyFerret (Jan 8, 2012)

Can you tell us a little more about the stove setup and the house?

-SF


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## leeave96 (Jan 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Mike has said in the past that 750 for a short time on start-up should be OK but not for continuous burns. I run in the range of 550 to 650 most of the time.



+1

Same here.  When the 30 starts creeping over 600, the sweat factor increases with it too as the heat really starts pouring out of the stove.

Bill


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## leeave96 (Jan 8, 2012)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

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+1

One of the things I try to hammer around here with my family using  the stoves is that heating is about momentum - not necessarily instant heat.  So when the temps start going down, we fire a bit hotter to compensate for heat sink of the house.

Also, if only secondaries are driving your stove top, you might need to open the damper a bit for more log flames.  Most of my burn is a combo of flames and secondaries.  Sometimes lazy and other times very active.

You will need time to learn your stove too.

Great stove you got!

Bill


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## GAMMA RAY (Jan 8, 2012)

My 30 likes to cruise at 550-600 stovetop and 325-350 stack (single wall) and that gives us enough heat to be more than comfortable with "summer attire." I never just rely on secondaries, I always have some flames coming off the splits.


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## begreen (Jan 9, 2012)

It will take a while to learn the difference in burning from the Defiant. The are very different stoves. Also, the Defiant is a highly radiant stove off of all surfaces. The 30N will be more radiant off of the front and top, so it will feel different even when putting out the same amount of btus as the Defiant. Still, it sounds like you are getting some nice fires already. Pretty soon you will be burning like a pro again. 

One big difference, besides the lack of bypass is the manual air control. How are you setting this control at various stages of the fire?


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## mywaynow (Jan 9, 2012)

I did back down the primary on the first full load, once it hit 500.  In trying to get the temps up I turned the fan on and went to full open.  The top never exceeded 450 during that period.  Loaded a couple larger splits of Hickory/Oak and left the air wide open again.  It never got over 500.  It has been very windy today, temps around 40.  Right now I am trying to burn off the coals in preparation for the overnight load.


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## begreen (Jan 9, 2012)

Full open will make the stove run cooler and will eat up more wood. Once the fire gets fully engaged, reduce the air in 50% stages, each half of the previous one, every 5-10 minutes. The stove top will get hotter because you are cutting back primary air, which will increase draw through the secondary manifold. You want to back down the primary air enough so that the flames just start to get lazy. Then leave it. The fire will regain some steam and secondary burning will get stronger. Many of us run with the air control all the way closed or almost so. And leave the blower off until it hits 600-650, then run on low or medium speed.


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## mywaynow (Jan 9, 2012)

So once the 500 mark is met on startup/new load, the object is to find secondary burn only?  It seemed that when I did that, the secondaries went out and there was no ignition whatsoever.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 9, 2012)

What BeGreen said. With the 30 a lot of us find that where it loves to run is with the tip of the air control either right even with the front edge of the ash lip or either side of that depending on your draft.


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## begreen (Jan 9, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> So once the 500 mark is met on startup/new load, the object is to find secondary burn only?  It seemed that when I did that, the secondaries went out and there was no ignition whatsoever.



Sounds like it was closed a bit too far too soon. If that happens, reopen the air a little way until the fire reignites. It's ok if there are some lazy flames on the wood too. It doesn't have to be burning only at the secondaries. This will take a little practice, but after a few tries you will find the right setting and it will be repeatable for most fires with the same wood.


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## wkpoor (Jan 9, 2012)

If your secondaries want to go out at a temp like 500 degrees you might have some wet wood issues.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 9, 2012)

Yeah you close it all the way down you will get the light show for a while and hot stove top temps but when that ends so does everything and you end up with a firebox full of smoldering splits. Until it gets a firebox full of gases and then "boom". You are looking for a balance of flame off the load and burning of the gases up top when you are setting up a large load.

How tall is the pipe on that thing?


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## mywaynow (Jan 9, 2012)

Single wall off the stove is up 40 inches, over 14 to the thimble and then up 23 feet of double wall insulated stainless.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 9, 2012)

That should give ya near perfect draft for it.


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## Battleaxe (Jan 10, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Full open will make the stove run cooler and will eat up more wood. Once the fire gets fully engaged, reduce the air in 50% stages, each half of the previous one, every 5-10 minutes. The stove top will get hotter because you are cutting back primary air, which will increase draw through the secondary manifold. You want to back down the primary air enough so that the flames just start to get lazy. Then leave it. The fire will regain some steam and secondary burning will get stronger. Many of us run with the air control all the way closed or almost so. And leave the blower off until it hits 600-650, then run on low or medium speed.




I have been getting pretty good performance with my stove but after reading this post I tweaked my stove adjustments just a hair and it has kicked the stove's performance into the stratosphere. The biggest thing is to keep the fan off until you reach 600 and to get the stove blazing with the primary all the way or nearly all the way closed. The stove needs to get to at least 550 before the "turbo secondaries" begin, when the primary is all the way closed and there are lazy but very active secondaries with very little flame on the logs and the temp keeps climbing. I've have this before but it was hit or miss. Now I can get this condition consistently. We're getting our first cold spell of the season in a couple of days, so the timing couldn't be better!


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## mywaynow (Jan 12, 2012)

I ran a full load at 6 pm last night and let the secondaries run more actively.  Loaded coals all to one side and ran logs parallel at base level, then crossed direction and finished filling the box.  7 logs total, with 2 larger on the bottom level.  I got good secondaries on the load for 2 hours, then she calmed down a bit.  Adjusted the primary to allow more air and let it go.  6 am this morning had enough coal to rearrange and start another burn.  Granted the incoming storm brought temps up to 47 this morning, but the house made 73 degrees at 6 am.  I feel there is progress there, but am still reluctant to claim victory until I see real cold weather.


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## Huntindog1 (Jan 12, 2012)

What was your stove top temp for those 2 hours of good secondaries? Do you know your stove pipe temp about 12-18" up?

Just curious sounds like your getting the hang of it. Good job!


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## mywaynow (Jan 12, 2012)

Top was 625, flu 410.  When it calmed down the top was 450,  flu 300.   Flu temp is taken 12 inches up.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 12, 2012)

If you house is cold with a 650 stove temp then you either need more insulation/air sealing ect, or a bigger stove. Id go with the insulation.


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## oldspark (Jan 12, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> If you house is cold with a 650 stove temp then you either need more insulation/air sealing ect, or a bigger stove. Id go with the insulation.


 Not sure that applies, my Summit is more than enough stove except for when I have a south wind and 0 or below temps, house is farily tight and good amount of insulation, if I had a bigger stove it would be too big 90 % of the time (or more), these stoves are made to run in that temp range or higher, no problem.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 12, 2012)

somthing to look at as well is that with "not so cold" temps outside the draft is not going to have the power it will when the weather outside gets good and cold.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 12, 2012)

oldspark said:
			
		

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Myway listed his location in the northeast which is where i live and its 50 degrees today. Plus we have been having a record mild winter so far. So the thinking here is if his house is cold now,what will it be like for the next 6-8 days when its forecast not to go above freezing here. Going to 750-800 is not going to bridge the gap IMO.


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## oldspark (Jan 12, 2012)

Ok, I took the post out of context I guess.


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## mywaynow (Jan 13, 2012)

Been getting better results with more practice.  Temps topped around 47 yesterday, 45 day before.  High winds that I can hear coming out of the stove when I am loading.  Temps have been hot enough in the house to the point I load only twice a day now.  Got a 12 hour burn 2 nights ago, and house was 73 in the morning, outside 40.  Working it out, though I am still uncertain what will happen when it is <20 round the clock.

House is insulated well, and Capes normally hold heat well on their own.  Keep in mind the stove is in the basement 26x40 floor.  I am pretty certain the key to keeping the temps up in the colder days will be to maintain the basement temp.  That heat rises throughout the house (hardwood floors) quite well.  We leave the basement door ajar too.  If the basement cools, then I have an uphill battle.  I do like the consumption difference vs the Defiant.  Starting to wonder if the final plan will be to keep both stoves in the basement, and swap them when temps really plummet.  It is pretty easy to maneuver them with a floor jack.  Still have the Defiant strapped to the hand truck in the garage.  I have a stair-climbing truck which is THE TOOL for moving these things.

Edit:  Snowing now.  Test to come soon?


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## leeave96 (Jan 13, 2012)

One thing that helped with my 30 was discovering and fixing a leaky stove pipe where it connected in to my flue.  Though it seemed like a little air leak, once I sealed it up, the draft and stove performance was much better.

I have found with my stove, if it hits 450 and I damper down, it holds 450.  If it is 550 and damper down, it holds that temp.  Same damper settings too.  I don't know if it is the relationship between heat induced draft that makes the stove hold - like a rock - the temps when I damper down, but that is the way my stove operates.  I think I've been over 650 a few times, never hit 700.  When the stove is at 650, it's really getting hot in my house.  My stove will also cruise at 650 with similar damper settings too, so I'm thinking that if you can get your stove up to temp and get it to hold that temp, you are going to pump out much more, but steady heat.  You need a combo of fire and secondaries too.

I'm very interested in this thread to see how you finally make out with the 30 vs the old Defiant.

Rather than swap out the stoves, I think what I'd do - as the temps really plunge and challenge your stove's output, is move to slightly smaller splits, burning N/S with a clear path from the dog house to the rear of the stove.  Don't pack the stove to the top, just to the top of the firebricks.  I'm thinking that with a little smaller splits and some airspace, you will get much hotter fires and though your reload times and wood consumption may increase when you hit the coldest temps, your wood consumption will not be as much as was required by the Defiant.

Good luck,

Bill


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## Wood Duck (Jan 13, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> What is the upper range I should use for stove top temp running this stove?  Seeing 650 now, but thinking I should go up.  House temp is not picking up like I would like.  Stove pipe temps are not exceeding 325 regardless of where the top has been.



How confident are you in your stovetop thermometer? I have no confidence in mine.


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## mywaynow (Jan 13, 2012)

Seems to react fine.  She got to 750 last night when I left the stove with someone else to watch.  Turned the fan on a damped it and the temp dropped within 5 minutes.


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## greythorn3 (Jan 13, 2012)

Wood Duck said:
			
		

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my imperial from lowes is between 100-200f off when it starts reading over 600f our stove acording to their temp gauge is running at 850 when we peak, but in reality its like 700-750. it gets the house to 80 when its in the single digets outside.  when it gets that hot. although ive had the house in the 90's that to hot tho with negitive temps outside. but its just  the one level its on.

what i do is i light the nc30s fire and let it go with the door open tell a decent burn starts, then close the door with the air controll all the way out for a few minutes, then when the stove top is getting aorund 450 500 i push that air controll in tell the shiny knob is right before it begins to go under the ash lip, then i wait aboput 10 15 more minutes and push that knob so its 1/2 way under the ash lip or untill i can see it effect the flames they will slow a little  then after a while the stove top is 700 or so i push the air controll in as far as it will go and its just a secondary burn for the rest the load.

works good, sometimes it gets to hot so i open a door or open the stove door if the stovetop temps are getting over 750 800 to cool it down some if i think its going to go higher then 800-850. but most the time it peak and then slowly comes back


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## SmokeyCity (Jan 13, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> What is the upper range I should use for stove top temp running this stove?  Seeing 650 now, but thinking I should go up.  House temp is not picking up like I would like.  Stove pipe temps are not exceeding 325 regardless of where the top has been.



I cruze at 650 on the 30 and the 13 - and I don't see no dain bramage yet.


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

Yesterday temps dropped to mid/low 30s, and overnight was 27 with high winds.  Loaded the 30 at 9 pm e/w 7 pieces.  6:30 this morning house 65 degrees, 2 gallons of coals in the stove.  Only thing I think I could have done differently was a n/s load, since the stove took a long time to come up to temps loaded e/w with the coals to the front.  Don't think it would have made a big difference.  Top was at 600 when I walked away for the night.  Must say the stove just does not seem to be up to the task at hand.  It appears I either have a shoulder season stove or a stove for sale.


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## oldspark (Jan 14, 2012)

Dont give up yet, I had one of the best fires ever last night and it was on Green Ash which is not even my best wood so still learning here, my stove works way better with very few ashes in it.


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

Been feeding her oak, hickory and ash all along. Forecast for the next 2 weeks is relatively mild. Going to keep playing with it, but going to bring the Defiant back down to the basement too. Like the 30 but it seems to be a middle weight in a heavy weight fight.


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## oldspark (Jan 14, 2012)

I'm heating over 2200 sq feet out of a berm house (walk in basement) with a ton of south windows and the only time my summit has a problem is a south wind and bitter cold temps, yesterday it was not working very well and I cleaned out the ashes and I swear after the wood burn down the coals were hotter. I think yu just need more time as the 30 according to a lot of people on here puts out a lot of heat. There are some old posts about a guy wh replaced his 30 because it was too hot in the stove room with a summit and could not get the heat out of it. Hang in there and keep trying different things, if I want quick heat I load lincoln log style and that works great for me.


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

All I have as a comparison is the Defiant.  If the 30 is at 650 stovetop, I can sit in front of it and watch from 30 inches away.  That seems to be a hot stove by the feedback here.  If I were pushing the Defiant, the heat radiating off the stove would keep you at 4 feet away.  Coldest days the basement was 80 degrees.  Started running the 30 as hot as I felt was reasonable (650) at 6:30 this morning.  Temp in the center of the house dropped a degree at 8:30.  I just turned the baseboard heat on for a moment to take the edge off.  64 degrees is not why I spent all the time and money processing wood, buying stoves, buying pipe and accepting the responsibility of tending a stove.  Wife is not happy.  End of story.


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

2 1/2 hours after the load and the air is wide open, top is 440.  ugh....


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## HotCoals (Jan 14, 2012)

Ripping fire?
Secondarys working?
Flue temp?


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## oldspark (Jan 14, 2012)

Sorry if I missed it but what are your flue temps. Never mind I see it now.


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

All wood is coaled up.  Primary flames at the point where the air meets the wood.  Flue is 340.  No secondary visible.


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## HotCoals (Jan 14, 2012)

You burnt the load up in 2.5 hours and even lost a degree or two?
I would switch back I guess.


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## oldspark (Jan 14, 2012)

IMHO too early to switch back unless you are freezing, I got through it with no back up heat. :gulp:


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## certified106 (Jan 14, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> 2 1/2 hours after the load and the air is wide open, top is 440.  ugh....



Something isn't right! I loaded up the T6 at 6 am this morning stove top was 250 and the house was 69. I pulled the coals forward and lit off the front of the load 25 minutes later the stove top was sitting around 650. shut the air and left it about 1/3 of the way open, turned the blowers on high  and the stove top dropped to about 500-550 (I'm quite certain if the blower was off the stove top would be pushing 750). I attached some pictures to show you I haven't burned quite 1/3 of the load yet and it is still sitting at a stove top of 550 and has now sign of letting up house temps have come up to around 73 degrees. 

I know you can't tell it from the pictures but the all of my flames and orange glowing is just on the front of the logs, those logs were almost touching the glass and they have burned to ash 4 to 6 inches back into the stove. with whole formed logs still right behind the orange flaming front pieces. I am wondering if you are setting the stove up to off gas the whole load very quickly? I know after burning in my Dutchwest it took a while to get the hang of setting the stove up correctly to burn front to back but now it's second nature and takes just a few quick seconds. In the defiant and the dutch it doesn't' matter as much you just light the load up and then shut it down due to the fact you need the whole firebox heated up to get the cat light off. The key to getting the long high temp stove top temps is to set it up so the load burns from one end to the other. Do you have a flue probe in your stack? I really think the flue probe is one of the best learning tools to let you see how the stove is responding. 

I agree with Oldspark I keep enough ash to carry coals but the stove need to be able to get that doghouse or boost air to keep the ends of the logs burning up from the bottom.


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## sebring (Jan 14, 2012)

I started a post about how my old smoke dragon was beating my EPA stove ( englander 30 ). The old stove without question put out more heat than the 30. I went back to burning coal in the old stove and kept burning wood in the 30. Both stoves are in the basement. The 30 wouldnt keep the house warm enough alone, but with a little help from the coal stove it does fine.  I also added a flue damper and I think that helps keep the draft a little slower so I can get longer burns. I have a 30 foot chimney, so thats not for everyone. Dont let anyone make you feel bad about your dissatisfaction with the 30, it probably isnt big enough for your application. But I wouldnt rule out some more tinkering either.


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

If I start the blower, the top will max at 450.  Right now I rearranged the logs that were on the edges and the stove looks like your pic.  Top is mid 600s.  I did move coals to the side on loading this morning.  The logs I just moved were opposite the coal side of the load.


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## oldspark (Jan 14, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> 2 1/2 hours after the load and the air is wide open, top is 440.  ugh....


 Why is the air wide open at that point?


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## begreen (Jan 14, 2012)

HotCoals said:
			
		

> You burnt the load up in 2.5 hours and even lost a degree or two?
> I would switch back I guess.



Keeping the air open is going to keep the fire cooler and waste a lot of heat up the flue. The air needs to be closed down once the wood is fully aflame and a good secondary burn temp is reached. How far closed will depend on the draft, but usually it is somewhere between 1/4 open to all the closed.


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## HotCoals (Jan 14, 2012)

Well he said the other stove did a better job.
I assumed he knows how to get the most and or run them.


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

I open the air once the load has burned through the gases.  Meaning, there are no flames at the current settings (or very few) which were set once the load took.  I would say the primary is set 35% open when the load takes (comes to temp and secondaries are active).  I leave it that way until the flames die down.  Temps are usually 300 flue and 425 top then.  In the case like today when I am behind on the house temps, I open the air to raise the top temp.  I understand I am loosing heat up the pipe, but what choice am I left with?  Air will get the temp up and burn off the coals allowing for the next load.


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## oldspark (Jan 14, 2012)

Well these new stoves for the most part are not going to heat the house up as fast as the older heat monsters and many have said that, you are not going to learn how to run the stove as quick as you like, my old Nashua was a no brainer and it put out a ton of heat no matter what I did, these EPA stoves are a thinking mans stove.


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## HotCoals (Jan 14, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> I open the air once the load has burned through the gases.  Meaning, there are no flames at the current settings (or very few) which were set once the load took.  I would say the primary is set 35% open when the load takes (comes to temp and secondaries are active).  I leave it that way until the flames die down.  Temps are usually 300 flue and 425 top then.  In the case like today when I am behind on the house temps, I open the air to raise the top temp.  I understand I am loosing heat up the pipe, but what choice am I left with?  Air will get the temp up and burn off the coals allowing for the next load.


Sounds reasonable to me!


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## mywaynow (Jan 14, 2012)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Well these new stoves for the most part are not going to heat the house up as fast as the older heat monsters and many have said that, you are not going to learn how to run the stove as quick as you like, my old Nashua was a no brainer and it put out a ton of heat no matter what I did, these EPA stoves are a thinking mans stove.



Let me think about that.......... no offense taken. :-/


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## HotCoals (Jan 14, 2012)

Cat stoves are for dummies like me!


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## begreen (Jan 14, 2012)

No, something is amok. myway said that after 2.5 hrs he had the air all the way open, burning down coals. When burning a full load of good dry, 5-8" split hardwood, at 2.5 hrs, our stove is still putting out 650+ heat and will continue to for at least another few hours. It takes about 6+ hrs to get down to 400F without any touching of the air control. This is burning a locust/madrona mix. However, when burning fir or soft maple, cut those times in half.


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## oldspark (Jan 14, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

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 That's not what I ment! I went through the same thing. :lol:


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## begreen (Jan 14, 2012)

HotCoals said:
			
		

> Cat stoves are for dummies like me!



Your stove is more than just a cat, it has a feature that I suspect is in play here, an automatic thermostat. That has a lot to do with the set and forget it nature of the BK. When it's cold out and the stove is being pushed, the difference between a cat and non-cat is a moot point IMO. A 4 cu ft belly on the other hand contributes a lot.


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## certified106 (Jan 14, 2012)

It's gonna take way to long to burn down a bed of coals like that. Try Oldsparks method of 3 or 4 splits lincoln log method and get them ripping then start shutting the air down to about a third of the way. within about 20 minutes you should have the stove top starting to push 650-700 and keep it going like that to get the stuff burnt down. This will help heat the house as well as getting the coals burned down! If your is anything like mine you should aim for flue temps around 600 and stove top around 700-750. Then the flue temps will start to fall off while stove top stays high for a while. 

I really think you need to get the coals burned down and retry another load like I suggested. I know when I first got the T6 I had the same problem as you I would off gas the whole load which would leave me a massive bed of coals 5 or 6 inches thick to deal with and it can be frustrating! BeGreen set me straight and it has been smooth sailing ever since. When it burns good front to back it will leave just a thin bed of coals and by the time you get to the back of the firebox the front coals will be gray ash. Then you just rake the hot stuff forward to the front third of the stove and pack her full again. Hang in there once you figure it out it's easy.


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## HotCoals (Jan 14, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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I agree with all that you said..except for the t-stat..I usually have it set so low id does not come into play.
Now when it's real cold after the stove and cat reach temp I adjust the t-stat till it just closes..then way into the burn after the stove cools some it will open a little and get her going.
But I can assure you..that t-stat is not that sensitive..far from it.


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## certified106 (Jan 14, 2012)

HotCoals said:
			
		

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No offense intended but you have posted the same thing on about ten different threads this week can't we just keep it to helping MyWay with his problem instead of discussing your thermostat


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## HotCoals (Jan 14, 2012)

certified106 said:
			
		

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I did not bring it up in this thread..maybe you should read back..thank you...for your consideration.

Besides if your reading comprehension was better you would notice I knock the t-stat more then anything...just sayin'.


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## Huntindog1 (Jan 14, 2012)

I wanted to add here a mind set to have with these stoves. You got to get the heat built up in them before you shut them down. Some times in problem situations you may not get the heat up with big splits. If your having problems then focus on getting the heat built up in the stove better and quicker so as not to burn up all your big splits in the stove for long burn times. Try using some really good quality kindling out of really dry wood and wood thats high btu like white oak.  I used to use polar but it doesn't perform like dry white oak kindling , kind of hated having to split into kindling 1" pieces of my good white oak. By raking coals right or left or to the front your last row of loading pile that row with the
really good small kindling then put on try to wedge in a fire starter some where in there around the kindling even if its hot coals as what I have seen that a fire starter will by flaming up quickly will gets those coals fired up quickly and then the kindling is a blazing and the heat will build quick. If you have enough small stuff you can get the heat up pretty hot with the white oak kindling split small. Its all about getting the heat up and get the heat built up a little high as once you turn that stove into a smoke burner from the high heat its going to perform for you  , if you try to use it as a wood burner by not getting the heat up in the top of the stove its not going to perform for you, its got to be a smoke burner.  Also you got to start with a full load of wood stacked up close to the tubes with about 2" space up there as these stoves to get to those high temps fast need a samll burn area up in the top so as to be able to build heat up there fast and kick into a smoke burner mode.  partially load stoves if you have not so good wood or not so good flue setup will be a pain to get going , thats why you use good quality kindling and a fire starter on coals to kick the stove into gear. If the stove isnt performing let the heat build higher before you completely shut it down. The art of it is knowing when to start slowly moving the air intake closed in small increments so as to limit the air but not limit it so much that you kill your fire . As too much air will keep things from heating up but not enough will cool the fire down. Thats where the kindling is so key it will burn fast and hot at a lower air intake setting so your able to reduce the air intake but still have that the small split kindling thats high quality putting out high btus burning hot and fast with the lower air setting, big splits dont do this at startup unless they are super dry or your coal bed is super hot.


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## trailrated (Jan 14, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> Yesterday temps dropped to mid/low 30s, and overnight was 27 with high winds.  Loaded the 30 at 9 pm e/w 7 pieces.  6:30 this morning house 65 degrees, 2 gallons of coals in the stove.  Only thing I think I could have done differently was a n/s load, since the stove took a long time to come up to temps loaded e/w with the coals to the front.  Don't think it would have made a big difference.  Top was at 600 when I walked away for the night.  Must say the stove just does not seem to be up to the task at hand.  It appears I either have a shoulder season stove or a stove for sale.



Have you ever tried a N/S load? I have a feeling your stove will perform much better loaded N/S


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## SmokeyCity (Jan 15, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> 2 1/2 hours after the load and the air is wide open, top is 440.  ugh....



This has the earmarks of less than dry wood.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

Wood is in 3rd year of c/s/s with tarp on top.  They are dry.


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## rdust (Jan 15, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> No, something is amok.



X2, not many EPA stoves that are going to be bigger than the 30's 3.5 cubic foot fire box, if it's not getting it done I'm not sure what else can.(at least on a 6" chimney)  Can you either post video from start up to running or at least a pictured step by step.  Maybe we'll be able to see something that is being missed?  

I still think it's a matter of learning a new stove, we see these posts every season when someone switches from a Pre-EPA to an EPA unit.

For me it also reinforces the reasons why heating from the basement is so difficult.


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## Agent (Jan 15, 2012)

Have you tried reducing the air coming into the secondaries?  You may need to install a damper if your draft is too strong and pulling excessive air through the secondaries.
My poor 30 will spike at 850+ if I'm not careful.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 15, 2012)

My son has a 30 on a brand new  25 Ft masonry  chimney. His stove top will go to 900 very quickly if he is not careful,no matter what he is burning. My 2- 30s are on older, larger chimneys
They usually top out at 650-700 after about an hour from a cold stove.  Unless its 45 degrees outside then figure an extra 20-30 minutes to get these temps.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

Agent said:
			
		

> Have you tried reducing the air coming into the secondaries?  You may need to install a damper if your draft is too strong and pulling excessive air through the secondaries.
> My poor 30 will spike at 850+ if I'm not careful.



All I have read about reducing secondaries has been in an attempt to reduce overfire issues.  I am not having those problems.  It seems more that i can't get long term scondary burns thta maintain >650 temps.  Stove has been into the current load for 45 minutes today.  I have just adjusted the primary to where the spring handle is about 1 inch beyond the ash lip toward the body.  Getting about 50/50 secondary burn to primary burn.  Top was 600 when I set this, flue 410.  Going to monitor and will update.

I can see before even posting that my secondaries are fading.  Going to let it run for a bit.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

Hour and a half later, stove top 460 flue 325.  Some secondary activity.  Not hot enough.  Eased the primary out a half inch to see the reaction.


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## oldspark (Jan 15, 2012)

My Summit doesn't work like others and so far it seems like your 30 does not work like others have reported with their 30's, we can try and help you all day long and not sure we can get there from here and thats what I have found out with my stove. My stove works fine but can not duplicate what others have so its been a long drawn out process for me. This is not much help but maybe some moral support, I dont get secondaries that last forever on 2 splits with 700 stove top (I swear there was a post that stated that) but I just keep burning and learning and seem to be getting more satisfied with the stove as time rolls on.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

Next check stove top 400 flue 290.  Frustrating.  Need heat so I piled the 2.5 gallons of coals in the center and added 4 good size splits, 2 on the sides of the coals n/s, 2 straddling e/w.  Temp to 500 and damped all the way to see secondary activity.  Went to no flames in 2 minutes.  Sound right??  From what I have read here the secondaries should draw on their own when the primary is shut down?  Opened the primary 40% and will check in 15.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

Stove at 625 flue 525.  Damped primary full again and same reaction on secodary burn.  Opened it back up to 35%.  Seeing white smoke out of the stack, not much but smoke all the same.  Thought that should not happen with the new stove.  Don't think it's steam because it stays up and does not dissapate for 100 feet.

Pretty sure the next thing to contemplate will be how long to leave the 30 after the load before I shovel it clean and disconnect it.


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## rdust (Jan 15, 2012)

How big are the splits you're tossing in?  I have a neighbor who runs an old Defiant and he tosses in stuff I would never dream of burning in mine, he'll fill it with three splits/rounds.  Try splitting some 3x3 or 3x4 pieces and giving it a go.  The chimney sounds perfect but maybe it's not drawing hard enough to keep the secondaries pulling??  It's a 6" class A correct?  Was this load n/s or e/w, my Lopi when I had it never burned as good for me e/w as it did n/s.


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## oldspark (Jan 15, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> Pretty sure the next thing to contemplate will be how long to leave the 30 after the load before I shovel it clean and disconnect it.


 So you are going to throw the baby out with the bath water? Something aint right, the smoking thing is interesting, kinda like the secondaries are not doing their job.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

All stove pipe outside is 6 inch double wall insulated.  One thing that is a big difference between the Defiant burns and the 30 burns is the velocity of the exhaust.  It creeps out of the stack on the 30, but flowed very freely when the Defiant was burning.  I did not have big smoke issues when I burned the D, mostly I believe because the wood was dry and I burned it hot.  I have been contemplating the theory my splits are too big.  The 2 I put either side of the coals this morning were 6x6x8.  I just checked the stove and the temps were down to 500 on the top.  I dug around the pile and uprooted one of those splits and placed it in the middle.  Ignition a plenty and temps will come up.  Still, seems way to high maintenance to keep the house warm.  18 degrees and still outside today.  I don't like wasting time and/or money and moving this stove off the active list after just buying it is going to leave a sour taste.  A cold house is worse though.  I bought new single wall for this install so I have the old cut to length for the Defiant.  It may be a realistic approach to use the Defiant in Jan/Feb and the 30 other times.


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2012)

I don't think this is the wood, or split size. I think it is draft. Without a doubt, the 30NC is going to need stronger draft than the Defiant. And the Defiant is an 8" flue vs 6" for the 30NC which may be coming into play here. 

What's the flue setup, from stove to cap, including elbows, cleanouts, pipe sizes, etc.


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## sebring (Jan 15, 2012)

Sell it and use what works to keep the house warm. Life is too short.

In the mean time. Cut thoes splits smaller. I find that when I load the stove, I wont load the middle much but the sides I will load up. That leaves a path for the flames to go up to the secondary burn tubes right in front of the doghouse.


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## rdust (Jan 15, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I don't think this is the wood, or split size. I think it is draft. Without a doubt, the 30NC is going to need stronger draft than the Defiant. And the Defiant is an 8" flue vs 6" for the 30NC which may be coming into play here.
> 
> What's the flue setup, from stove to cap, including elbows, cleanouts, pipe sizes, etc.



This is also where my thinking was/is.  I asked about the chimney set up since my neighbors defiant runs on an 8" flue and I think that would cause a lazy draft on a 30 causing a lack of pull for the secondaries. 

Here is a quote from the first page


			
				mywaynow said:
			
		

> Single wall off the stove is up 40 inches, over 14 to the thimble and then up 23 feet of double wall insulated stainless.


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## sebring (Jan 15, 2012)

If you can open the door without smoke coming out, your draft should be good enough.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

My pipe is 6 inch.  The Defiant requires 8 in if you desire to burn with the double doors open and screen in place; like a fireplace setup.  I have never had smoke come back in either stove, unless I hastily opened the door.  Here is the exact specs:

40 inches single wall straight up from stovetop to 90 elbow, 16 inches single wall horizontal to insulated wall thimble, insulated cleanout T then 22 ft straight up to cap with cinder grill.

I have been doing sheet rock work following the flood issues in the fall.  When the Defiant was running and I was sanding sheetrock, the dust would tunnel toward the bottom of the stove from 6 feet away.  I could make the Defiant sound like a oil burner running by creating air paths with flat splits if the baffle was rolled to reburn state.  This again is why I posted the difference in exhaust velocity between the stoves.


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## begreen (Jan 15, 2012)

Yes, I remember that sound from running a Vigilant. I have gotten the T6 to rumble sort of, unintentionally. But that is more the roar of air feeding a fire that I forgot to turn down. 

Your setup doesn't sound bad. All I can suggest to improve it would be first to try and increase the horizontal pitch of the connector if possible. Even a 1/4" can help sometimes. You might want to try a pair of 45's with a short connector and eliminate the horiz. section all together. A slight increase in draft can sometimes make a nice difference if the system is on the threshold.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 15, 2012)

Quit trying to close the air all the way on that dang stove. Counting the 90 degree turns and horizontal pipe you have the approximate EVL (equivalent venting length) of 15 to 16 feet. What the stove was built for and tested with. Burn down the coals to where you have enough to make a coal bed six to nine inches front to back and all the way across the front of the stove. Then load the firebox N/S. Open the air all the way and get it burning well and close the air down 1/3 at a stove top temp on the front of the step top of 400. At 550 close it another third and leave it alone. Get your heat from the flames and forget about that &*^% secondaries BS. The stove was not designed to bake wood, it was designed to BURN wood.

Build a fire in it and get over what every old stove burner falls for. They all believe that a lot of flame is wasting wood. In an EPA stove it isn't. It is making heat.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 15, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> Hour and a half later, stove top 460 flue 325.  Some secondary activity.  Not hot enough.  Eased the primary out a half inch to see the reaction.



If i were you i would forget about the fan. That fan will cool your stove too much for a clean burn,i only use a fan when my stove is getting too hot say 750 and up. My 30 seems to like hot temps before it burns all the smoke. The cooler the stove the more smoke i get. It seems the stove may be a little too small for your heat load and insulation level in the dead of winter.
That idea you had about using it in the shoulder season may be where you will end up.


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## mywaynow (Jan 15, 2012)

All the messing around and screw-it and load-it again attitude has gotten the house up to 70 today.  Loaded 3 times since 730 am though to the tune of 14 pieces of wood.  Just loaded 6 of those 14 on a thick bed of coals.  Top is 650 down from 700 15 minutes ago.  Air set 35%.  BB-  How is the EVL value of my setup at 15-16 feet?  Not familiar with that rating system.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 15, 2012)

The EVL is calculated using the actual vertical height of the chimney components and deducting five feet or so for each 90 degree turn. Nothing precise about it. It is borrowed from the fluid dynamics world but it gets close. The stoves are built and tested with a straight chimney that measures 15' from the floor the stove sits on to the cap. So that is what the stove is tuned for.


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## BrotherBart (Jan 15, 2012)

By pulling the coals forward and burning a N/S load with just the front end of the splits on the coals you burn down the original coal bed while creating a new one at the end of the burn. If you just keep throwing splits on top of the coal you end up with a stove full of coals to burn off with a three hundred degree stove for hours and hours.


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## sebring (Jan 15, 2012)

My goal with the 30 is to burn the wood as efficiently as possible and as long as possible. And if thats good enough to keep the house at 70 then great, but most of the cold days its close, but not close enough, so I fire up a second stove. I dont have a temperature gauge. I just look through the front glass and see if its burning good. If its smoldering I either give it a little more air, or put on some gloves and reposition a few pieces of wood so the fire can burn up to the burn tubes.


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## mywaynow (Jan 16, 2012)

So after a Sunday of messing and babysitting the stove, the house stayed at 70/71. Problem is the consumption was 21 logs. Not much of an advantage to where I was with the Defiant. This morning the house was 63; oil burner was summoned. I know I am a newby to EPA stoves, but it sure seems to be the case that the stove just can't keep up to the needs here. If my quick math is correct, I am trying to heat 2100 sq ft. The 30 is rated to 2200 sq ft. How those numbers are obtained is likely the root of the conflict. I am guessing that 2200 is an optimal situation; stove in the center of the house, perfect sealed windows/doors with high R-value insulation, no opening of doors, etc, etc. Not the real life case here. I guess I should have seen that coming. I like the stove, the construction, the design, the operation. It is just a knife at a gun fight. First warm day this week she is going to the sidelines until the shoulder season starts.  Glad I left the Defiant on the handtruck.


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## oldspark (Jan 16, 2012)

I can feel your pain, I guess no point in fighting it, a little song comes to mind.
 KooAid KoolAid tastes great
 KoolAid KoolAid cant wait


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## wkpoor (Jan 16, 2012)

> They all believe that a lot of flame is wasting wood.


I think alot of yellow flames is. Secondary flames no.


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## oldspark (Jan 16, 2012)

wkpoor said:
			
		

> > They all believe that a lot of flame is wasting wood.
> 
> 
> I think alot of yellow flames is. Secondary flames no.


 If the stove is hot the stove is hot not matter what the flames look like.


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## wkpoor (Jan 16, 2012)

I feel your pain MYWAYNOW, the road to EPA heat can be a rough one. Obviously everyone's heating needs vary greatly in an average situation 2000+sqft is alot for any one stove to heat. Ad in heat loss variables and I can see where you are at. I think if we were to visit some of the homes where fantastic results are posted you might see drastically different heating needs in those places. One easy way to tell how much heat a dwelling requires is to just observe how much time your furnace runs to heat your space. I have a 100,000BTU furnace and on cold windy days its runs nearly constantly to keep up. No one stove can match that.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> . It is just a knife at a gun fight. First warm day this week she is going to the sidelines until the shoulder season starts.  Glad I left the Defiant on the handtruck.



Although i like my Englander 30s i also have a harman Tl-300. BOTH are rated at 75000 BTUs max. Both are EPA stoves but with different reburn tech.  For the big jobs i would choose the Harman hands down over the 30 for several reasons. Its bigger ,heavier, i can use a fan without cooling it down much, i can get more wood in it and the high heat output is maintained especially in the later stages of the burn. Seems to burn very hot even when the wood is mostly coals. I like the englander for its simplicity,easy operation,lighter weight when moving it,and its price which is about a third of what i paid for the harman. Both great stoves for different reasons.


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## oldspark (Jan 16, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> mywaynow said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It's posts like yours that can be the most helpful, direct comparisions, do they have the same type of chimney.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 16, 2012)

Oldspark
All the stoves i run are on old masonry chimneys from 20 -25 ft tall. Iv had the Harman in 2 different locations as well as the 30s .That said OS your right about the chimney ,it makes all the difference in how the stove behaves.My son has a 30 on a brand new tall chimney and he is always trying to keep it from getting too hot. Mine on the other hand are on old large diameter chimneys with much less draft and i dont see those 800-900 degree stove tops like my son gets.


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## Huntindog1 (Jan 16, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> So after a Sunday of messing and babysitting the stove, the house stayed at 70/71. Problem is the consumption was 21 logs. Not much of an advantage to where I was with the Defiant. This morning the house was 63; oil burner was summoned. I know I am a newby to EPA stoves, but it sure seems to be the case that the stove just can't keep up to the needs here. If my quick math is correct, I am trying to heat 2100 sq ft. The 30 is rated to 2200 sq ft. How those numbers are obtained is likely the root of the conflict. I am guessing that 2200 is an optimal situation; stove in the center of the house, perfect sealed windows/doors with high R-value insulation, no opening of doors, etc, etc. Not the real life case here. I guess I should have seen that coming. I like the stove, the construction, the design, the operation. It is just a knife at a gun fight. First warm day this week she is going to the sidelines until the shoulder season starts.  Glad I left the Defiant on the handtruck.




The NC-30 is too big a stove to have those kinds of problems. There has got to be something wrong here.
There are people on here with alot less stove and gets better results. 
I think your burning up all your wood trying to get alot of heat out of the stove. 21 logs dang!
The key is once you get the heat built up in the stove it should stay hot enough to maintain alot of heat over a long period of time with a 3.5 Cubic foot fire box.

I really think you ought to install that manual pipe damper, Your descriptions make me feel like you have too much draw. Its like your burning with the door cracked open , you get the flames but not good heat build up that can be sustained. These stoves are all about controlled air in a very high heat environment, thats why the secondaries go out when you close the door as the heat isnt built up enough to sustain the operation. you have to get the heat built up quick then start limiting the air intake so as your not letting all your heat up the chimney. I dont know that you can judge how much heat is going up your chimeny by the flue pipe temp as it maybe more of a function of flue gas velocity and residual time.  Faster velocity with less residual time may mean our pipe temp may not reflect whats actually going on. 6" pipe has a smaller volume of gases but faster velocity than an 8". So keep that in mind that you still may have too much draw as your main problem. So try the damper  as you can always keep it wide open if you dont want to use it later on.


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## mywaynow (Jan 16, 2012)

One of my issues may be that the stove pipe is just right for the stove. Meaning, I would really have to screw up to overheat it. On the other hand, fear of overheating is causing reluctance to burn to potential. Twice the stove went unattended for 30 minutes with full loads. Both times the max temp was 800 or just under. If in fact the draft ability of the setup is limiting the burn to 800, I can let her run without such concern. Is that a viable possibility?

On another note, I tried the blower today, along with identifying and somewhat correcting an issue of air flow in the basement (a space that was segregated last year and is no longer due to doors/walls removed from flood) and the result was noticeable. Outside was 26 and house was at 73. Going to keep the blower running tonight. Looking for 68 or better in the morning as a positive result.


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## wkpoor (Jan 16, 2012)

I would not assume 800 to be your limit. The fuel we burn is not the same at all times. Next load might have more potential.


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## mywaynow (Jan 16, 2012)

Good point.  Split sizes, outside temps wood species will all alter the temp.  Just having read someone's post regarding having to fight overheating with a taller system had me wondering if my concerns of  a runaway stove were exagerated a bit.


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## wkpoor (Jan 17, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:
			
		

> Oldspark
> All the stoves i run are on old masonry chimneys from 20 -25 ft tall. Iv had the Harman in 2 different locations as well as the 30s .That said OS your right about the chimney ,it makes all the difference in how the stove behaves.My son has a 30 on a brand new tall chimney and he is always trying to keep it from getting too hot. Mine on the other hand are on old large diameter chimneys with much less draft and i dont see those 800-900 degree stove tops like my son gets.


Part of the problem is EPA stove don't allow full regulation of the primary air. In order to satify the tests they require a limit on how far the primary can be shut down and I'm guessing that is based on something like a 16-20' chimney. Put a tall chimney with more draft in the equation and its overfire time. I did battle with my Magnolia constantly to keep it below meltdown.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 17, 2012)

Since Myway can not seem to maintain a hot stove top it would seem we have an under fire problem and not an overheat or overfire problem.


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## begreen (Jan 17, 2012)

mywaynow said:
			
		

> Good point.  Split sizes, outside temps wood species will all alter the temp.  Just having read someone's post regarding having to fight overheating with a taller system had me wondering if my concerns of  a runaway stove were exagerated a bit.



For optimal burn I have to run the air control at different settings for locust vs cherry vs doug fir. With doug fir I can close it almost all the way and still have billowing secondaries. With cherry it needs to be about 1/4 open and with locust it needs to be about 1/3d or sometimes almost half-way for big splits loaded E/W. 

Let the stove stretch out by opening up the air a bit more. Also, try setting a table fan on low speed at the top of the basement steps, blowing cooler upstairs air down the stairs. That should help stimulate convection.


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## mywaynow (Jan 17, 2012)

At this point the blower has made much improvement of the situation.  Looking forward to how the overnight burn does tonight.  Will post the results in the morning.

One thing I am curious about is the effect of pulling the coals forward on the primary air outlet (doghouse??).  Today I took a vac and ran the exhaust through the inlet of the primary.  Blowing out the primary seemed to help the burn down I was working on.  Is it possible that technique will have the ability to clog the primary outlet at the doghouse?


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## begreen (Jan 17, 2012)

Good news. Did you pick up a blower for the stove and install it today?


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## mywaynow (Jan 17, 2012)

Blower came with the unit, installed when the stove was installed.  Used it once or twice to cool the stove top, but never considered using it to aid the heating of the house.  Have always enjoyed strong natural convection without moving the air artificially, with the exception of an Eco-fan.  I could stand in the stairwell of the basement door and feel air flow across my feet as cold air, and hot air would move the hair on my head, both moving opposite directions.  Pretty intense to see temperature create that kind of air movement.


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## pen (Jan 17, 2012)

If you are still looking for advice on this topic, I would summarize your experience (where you are now) in a new thread.

Right now, it's so damn long it's hard to help (if you still want it) in a way that is not redundant.

pen


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## wkpoor (Jan 17, 2012)

I was guessing this thread would hit the 100 posts mark or more based on someone having trouble with an Englander. There is a BK thread about to hit the same number.


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## mywaynow (Jan 17, 2012)

pen said:
			
		

> If you are still looking for advice on this topic, I would summarize your experience (where you are now) in a new thread.
> 
> Right now, it's so damn long it's hard to help (if you still want it) in a way that is not redundant.
> 
> pen



Will do.

New Topic heading:  Getting the NC30 to heat as well as the old Defiant


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## joecool85 (Jan 17, 2012)

I've seen the 17-VL up to 680F before...no damage done that I can tell, but I wouldn't do it on purpose.


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