# Basement vs. Living room for wood insert?



## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Someone on another forum suggested I come here for all things wood stove/insert.  So I did some reading today.  Even though it's mentioned in a lot of threads that the placement of stoves is often spoken about, I didn't see many threads on basement placement except for a guy who wanted to rip out insulation and put a pellet stove in.  So here goes....

We just bought a new (to us) home literally today the agreement was signed.  We move in late July.  

The home has a fireplace in the (finished knotty pine) basement.  It's also given us the option to install a new fireplace in the living room directly above the one in the basement due to how the chimney was built.  However, that's going to cost a few grand extra.  We're trying to keep things cost efficient right now but we want to get an insert in before winter.  

My question is, when it comes to wood inserts, do modern models throw enough heat to make it up two flights of stairs, without putting vents/registers in?  If I can put up a baby gate and just leave the basement door open that'd be nice to heat the home.  All we'd have to do is pick out a stove or an insert and have someone install it and a liner.

Growing up we had an Osburn and that thing made the house toasty.  But then again it was in the family room on the main level.

I've read a lot of contradictory stuff here...some say the concrete in the foundation will suck up a ton of heat other say they've had a stove/insert in their basement and love it so we'll see what the replies say now.

The home is a center hall colonial and with the basement it's around 2000sqft. give or take.  

Please share your experience.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## fossil (Jul 7, 2010)

Generally speaking, solid fuel burning appliances other than boilers/furnaces...I'm talking about wood & pellet stoves & inserts...are space heaters.  They do a wonderful job of heating the space in which they're installed, but getting that heat distributed in any direction other than up is a challenge we all face to one degree or another.  So, the typical party line is that the appliance is best installed in the space/on the level where you spend the most time.  The idea of vents/registers can get a little dicey with fire/structural/mechanical codes, so you want to tread carefully in that direction.  Yes, there are folks who report good results heating the upstairs from a basement install...perhaps some of them can chime in here with their experiences.  Welcome to the forums.  Rick


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

I appreciate the info.  Have that same axe to. 

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## Todd (Jul 7, 2010)

Your biggest supply/return for a basement install is going to be your stairwell and if the insert is close to it or centrally located, it may work fine. I've had success with basement installs but figure about a 5-10 degree difference in temps between the two floors, you will never even out the heat throughout the whole house. Maybe you can do a basement install this year and see how it works out and plan another stove upstairs later down the road if needed or vise versa.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Well I'm doing my homework now.  We aren't poor but money is going to be tight for a while after we move in  and have some work done.  I want to do it right the first time.  If that means a little demo work and building a new hearth ok.  But I can't do both.  I'm not sure how expensive it is to swap an insert from one hearth to the next.  Wouldn't that need a whole new liner and all?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## Dix (Jul 7, 2010)

Welcome to the forums, EMT 

Is the space where the insert is going, the space where you will spend the most time?

PS..get working on wood now, what ever the outcome !!


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> Welcome to the forums, EMT
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> Is the space where the insert is going, the space where you will spend the most time?
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> PS..get working on wood now, what ever the outcome !!



It'll be my man cave.  It's BEAUTIFUL!! But no, our living area will be the main and upper level.  

And the fireplace down the basement is about 15-20 feet away from the steps in an outcove.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## fossil (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Well I'm doing my homework now. We aren't poor but money is going to be tight for a while after we move in and have some work done. I want to do it right the first time. If that means a little demo work and building a new hearth ok. But I can't do both. I'm not sure how expensive it is to swap an insert from one hearth to the next. Wouldn't that need a whole new liner and all?
> 
> Thanks!
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> -Emt1581



When you say that the chimney was built in such a way as to give you the option to install an upstairs appliance directly above the one below...just what sort of configuration are you talking about? Two appliances cannot share the same flue, so if the chimney can accommodate only a single flue (liner), then you have to choose...upstairs or downstairs. Lots of homes are built with fireplaces on two levels...but the chimney structures_ always _incorporate two _separate_ flues, one from downstairs all the way to daylight, and another separate flue from upstairs to daylight. What's your chimney structure all about in that respect?  Could make a big difference in how you proceed.  Of course, even if your chimney has but one flue, you can always add an appliance upstairs and just install stovepipe & Class A chimney pipe up through the roof independent of the existing chimney.  Got any pics of the situation we're talking about?  Rick


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

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I was told it has two separate flues.  If you're looking at the chimney from outside, the wider base covers both the basement and main level before tapering off above.  I was told it was just a matter of knocking out the wall and building a hearth to add a fireplace.

So what your saying is I need to make sure there are actually two flues before even thinking about installing an insert/stove on the main level right?  

Otherwise I'm pretty much stuck with the basement fireplace for an insert.  In this situation, given that it's a finished basement and the home, including said basement, is around 2000sqft., will buying an insert rated for 2500+sqft. compensate at all?  Any risk in ruining the knotty pine walls with that much heat?  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## Dix (Jul 7, 2010)

I think a floor plan is going to help here.


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## fossil (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> ...If you're looking at the chimney from outside, the wider base covers both the basement and main level before tapering off above.  I was told it was just a matter of knocking out the wall and building a hearth to add a fireplace...



Might be the case.  What you need to do to confirm is get up on the roof and look at the top of the chimney.  If there are, in fact, two separate flues in it, that fact will be immediately apparent to you, as they'll have separate termini where they go to daylight.  Rick


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

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In other words I have to look down the chimney and see if there are two separate holes/tube?  That should be interesting.  Maybe I'll have my roofer friend do that for me.  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> I think a floor plan is going to help here.



What would the layout matter?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## madison (Jul 7, 2010)

Regarding the basement install:

consider the effort, mess, wall damage etc of moving wood to the stove in the basement.  ie, if it is not a walkout basement, i would definately NOT want to personally carry wood thru the house, down the stairwell into the basement.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

madison said:
			
		

> Regarding the basement install:
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> consider the effort, mess, wall damage etc of moving wood to the stove in the basement.  ie, if it is not a walkout basement, i would definately NOT want to personally carry wood thru the house, down the stairwell into the basement.



It's a walkout basement and there's a covered porch outside the doorway.  

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
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That will show us how and if the heat is going to migrate upstairs or if it would be better off with an upstairs stove to start with.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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So a layout of the basement?  I sort of gave it but I guess I could go into more detail...

If you come down the steps from the main level you can only go left.  To that left on the far wall is the fireplace (maybe 15-20 feet from the staircase).  Directly to the left and in back of the staircase is open space.  It's an L shaped large room really.  Diagonally opposite the landing to the staircase is the laundry room.  And to the rear of the L is the walkout/exit.  There are other rooms but all rooms in the basement have doors and they will be closed normally.

Hopefully that helps.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## BrotherBart (Jul 7, 2010)

If you aren't gonna get up there and see if there are two flues then it is time to get a stove installer or chimney sweep out there to do that. You need the existing flue inspected anyway and while he/she/it is there they can advise as to what your options are.

And having heated a 2,500 foot center hall colonial with wood for over 25 years I can tell you that you ain't gonna heat that house from the basement. I have a stove down there, to heat me when I am down there. The stove on the main floor hauls the freight.


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## dafattkidd (Jul 7, 2010)

My two cents would be this:  The knotty pine- if it's 3/4" v-joint (tongue and groove) and not 1/4" sheets of paneling, then there's a good chance that the wood will warm up and radiate some heat once you get that room heated up.  Also if you're only going to get the one stove, I would get something with a real big firebox.  I had to get a small insert to fit in my fireplace- it gets the job done, but it's a lot more work.  Another head's up is that man cave is going to get really warm.   I'm really a rookie and have no right giving too much advice, but hope that helps.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

DaFattKidd said:
			
		

> My two cents would be this:  The knotty pine- if it's 3/4" v-joint (tongue and groove) and not 1/4" sheets of paneling, then there's a good chance that the wood will warm up and radiate some heat once you get that room heated up.  Also if you're only going to get the one stove, I would get something with a real big firebox.  I had to get a small insert to fit in my fireplace- it gets the job done, but it's a lot more work.  Another head's up is that man cave is going to get really warm.   I'm really a rookie and have no right giving too much advice, but hope that helps.



It's thick, not 1/4" paneling.  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Freestanding stove in the living room.  No fireplace required.  Hearth gate to keep baby at bay.


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## wood thing (Jul 7, 2010)

WHAT ABOUT GETTING WOOD TO THE BASEMENT ?


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Freestanding stove in the living room.  No fireplace required.



+1.  Many stoves only require spark protection possibly making this as simple as laying some tile.  It also gives you a lot more stove options when you don't have to deal with the constraints of an existing fireplace.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 7, 2010)

Random thoughts . . .

* Congrats on the new home purchase . . . it's always exciting to buy and move into a new home.

* You say the basement is finished . . . but is it insulated . . . and if so, how well insulated? This makes a difference . . . if the folks just ran some furring strips and attached the pine board to the walls then I would guess you would still lose a lot of heat to the surrounding cement . . . but if they put up some foam insulation before putting on the pine boards you might be OK to go with a stove in the basement.

* When I was first looking at the idea of heating with wood I thought having a basement install would be great . . . which is ironic since I don't even have a basement. I figured it would keep the mess out of the house and free up more space in the living area. However, I have since changed my mind. The only time I would put a wood-burning appliance in a basement now is if I had a wood boiler or a wood furnace which would use ductwork or plumbing to carry the heated air/water throughout my entire home. I say this since a) the only real way it seems to be even remotely efficient with a woodstove and get as many BTUs as you can is to have an insulated basement (a friend of mine has a basement stove . . . and they heat their home . . . but they are also losing a lot of heat) and b) once you experience a woodstove running in your living space you cannot imagine what it would be like to not have one there -- the feel of the heat radiating out and warming you, the sound of the crackling fire, the view of the dancing flames and the secondary burn light show, the smell of the potpourri simmering on the stove top and just simply the ability to quickly and easily tell where you are in the burning cycle . . .

* So if I'm reading this correctly the house is set up so you can simply knock out a small section of the wall and connect to an existing flue in the living room . . . if this is true this would be a no-brainer for me . . . open up that small section of wall (after checking to make sure this is actually true) and build a hearth per your stove's specs and start enjoying the heat, the sound and the view with a free standing stove. Other than a bit of drywall work, the most difficult thing in my mind would be building the hearth . . . and this can be done simply and easily for less than $250 . . . now on the otherhand if you're determined to go with a wood-burning insert and want to build an actual fireplace . . . well then you're looking at a bit more money . . . personally I would spend the money on an attractive stove and hearth . . . and get the most BTUs possible.

* It's been said before, but I'll say it again . . . put your stove where you spend the bulk of your time. You'll enjoy the heat more and the "extras" that come with the sights, sounds and smells . . . and you'll be able to monitor it better.

* We like pictures . . . we're very visually oriented. We like pictures of woodpiles . . . pictures of stoves . . . and even pictures of potential areas where a stove could be installed . . . and yes a lay-out of the entire house, square footage, etc. would be useful . . . and as mentioned we like pictures of all of these things . . . or at least a drawing.


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## northwinds (Jul 7, 2010)

I have my stove in the walkout basement and had a similar configuration in my former house.  It can work quite well, but it's dependent upon several
factors.

1)  You need a large insert or stove to heat the whole house;
2)  You need good air flow between the upstairs and downstairs.  I've had very open staircases with a big stove located close to the staircases; 
3)  An insulated, finished off basement is a big help; and
4)  You need to be able to live with the sometimes significant temperature differences between upstairs and downstairs (the stove room will be
very warm at times when you're trying to warm up the upstairs).

In my case, heating the downstairs is just as important as heating the upstairs.  The master bedroom, my office and the family room is in the 
walk-out level.  I'll close the master bedroom door to make sure that room doesn't get too warm and may open the window a crack. I also have
a small insert upstairs to help moderate temp differences.  I didn't have that in the old house

You'll have to decide which compromise is best for your situation.


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## CJRages (Jul 7, 2010)

When you have/had the home inspected find out how much insulation is in your attic (the R-value) . It might be worth putting more batts or blowing in additional insulation. If you decide to install the stove in the basement you'll want to prevent as much heat from escaping the upstairs level as possible.


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## Dix (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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One of the entire house.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> Random thoughts . . .
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> * Congrats on the new home purchase . . . it's always exciting to buy and move into a new home.
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As far as pics go, once we're in I'll snap a few of the said areas.  I'm certainly not going to just share an entire layout of pics for safety/security reasons...but just the areas I don't have a problem with.  I will need someone I can email them to so they can post them for me though. 

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

A simple stick drawing of the house floors layout is a big help with figuring out how heat will circulate. Lots of people have posted floorplans here and this is the first time I have heard of security concerns. We don't need to know where the wine cellar is going nor the security safe. Just the basic room layout.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> A simple stick drawing of the house floors layout is a big help with figuring out how heat will circulate. Lots of people have posted floorplans here and this is the first time I have heard of security concerns. We don't need to know where the wine cellar is going nor the security safe. Just the basic room layout.



So you want to know wall, door, and stair placement in the home.  What sort of things would you look for to determine a response/solution?  I'm not sure how to draw an outline online...


I will say in both floors, the chimney is on complete opposite side/wall from the stair cases. 

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

That's right, just the basics. Draw it in Paint, MS Word or other program with simple drawing tools and save it as a .bmp or .jpg file. Then post it to the thread.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> That's right, just the basics. Draw it in Paint, MS Word or other program with simple drawing tools and save it as a .bmp or .jpg file. Then post it to the thread.




Well mine is a pretty standard colonial design.  Let me see if I can search the forums for a similar floorplan.

-Emt1581


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## oldspark (Jul 7, 2010)

I see you have a couple of stairways for the heat to go up but how are you getting the cool air back to basement?


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I see you have a couple of stairways for the heat to go up but how are you getting the cool air back to basement?



Cool air back to the basement?  What do you mean?  

There is an outside door down there (walkout) so I suppose if it gets too toasty I can just crack that for a few minutes.  But it still doesn't sound like a good solution long term.  

What are your suggestions?

As far as similar layouts, I haven't found any.  I don't have word (I use openoffice because my trial to office ran out on my netbook).  So I'm not sure how to draw a layout.  I can describe it though to create a mental pic if that helps.  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## daleeper (Jul 7, 2010)

I cannot address all your questions, but I will through out a few things where I can.  I have a freestanding stove in the basement, and have the 8-10 degree difference in temperature between the floors that some were discussing.  Our house does not have ideal air movement for a wood stove in the basement to get the hot air upstairs, and it does not sound like yours does either.  I have tried several different methods of moving that air, and have had limited success, but does help keep the gas furnace and heat pump from running too much.  What the stove in the basement does do for us is to get that concrete warmed up, and heats an office space that I spend a lot of time in.  If I did not have that stove down there, I would freeze to death working even with the small portable heaters I use when the stove is not running.  It takes about a week of stove burning to warm that mass up so that my feet don't freeze.

It has been said several times on this forum that a wood stove is a space heater, and I believe that is the case.  If you do have a flue available upstairs already, I would be considering a freestanding stove upstairs, along with the insert in the fireplace downstairs.  I would guess that you could install a hearth and new wood stove for significantly less money upstairs than you can a fireplace, and will heat the space better than most fireplaces.


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## Dix (Jul 7, 2010)

emt, even a hand drawn, scanned in layout would be a help.


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Lack of illustrations aside, I place my bet with Bart and Daleeper.  You'd have a tough time heating the whole house from the basement.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

daleeper said:
			
		

> I cannot address all your questions, but I will through out a few things where I can.  I have a freestanding stove in the basement, and have the 8-10 degree difference in temperature between the floors that some were discussing.  Our house does not have ideal air movement for a wood stove in the basement to get the hot air upstairs, and it does not sound like yours does either.  I have tried several different methods of moving that air, and have had limited success, but does help keep the gas furnace and heat pump from running too much.  What the stove in the basement does do for us is to get that concrete warmed up, and heats an office space that I spend a lot of time in.  If I did not have that stove down there, I would freeze to death working even with the small portable heaters I use when the stove is not running.  It takes about a week of stove burning to warm that mass up so that my feet don't freeze.
> 
> It has been said several times on this forum that a wood stove is a space heater, and I believe that is the case.  If you do have a flue available upstairs already, I would be considering a freestanding stove upstairs, along with the insert in the fireplace downstairs.  I would guess that you could install a hearth and new wood stove for significantly less money upstairs than you can a fireplace, and will heat the space better than most fireplaces.



I've seen it mentioned many MANY times here that wood stoves are space heaters...I have to get some clarification here...

Are yall saying that 1)  Woodstoves are inefficient and only comparable to one of those little space heaters?  That's definitely not been my experience growing up.  2)  Woodstoves are designed to heat certain space/sqft. amount?  3) Only going to heat the space they are installed in??  Again, I'm just sort of confused on what yall are trying to express with that statement.

I'm still VERY curious what sort of hearth is being spoken of for a stove.  Again, I thought it was just a freestanding box with a pipe going into the wall (drywall) no?  

Or do you still have to build a brick platform and wall section to handle the heat, embers when loading, etc.?

As I said before, I doubt she's going to be thrilled with the stove idea.  Insert is more eye-appealing know what I mean?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

The "space heater" thing refers to the way in which a stove spreads heat around the house, or maybe doesn't do so. Typically, it's hard to get the heat to spread into the corners of the house farthest from the stove. This is why someone mentioned cold air return to the stove room. This is reportedly the most effective way to get the heat to spread.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Lack of illustrations aside, I place my bet with Bart and Daleeper.  You'd have a tough time heating the whole house from the basement.



Ok, what about installing vents?  Or let me ask  it this way...what would be some options to make it efficient if done from the basement fireplace??

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Well, I have no experience with vents, etc, but, as someone mentioned, code typically restricts this because a fire could spread via your heat path. I still think heating the whole house from the basement fireplace is a bad bet. . .especially if that fireplace is in an exterior chimney(acts like a heat sink and loses heat to outdoors.)


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> The "space heater" thing refers to the way in which a stove spreads heat around the house, or maybe doesn't do so. Typically, it's hard to get the heat to spread into the corners of the house farthest from the stove. This is why someone mentioned cold air return to the stove room. This is reportedly the most effective way to get the heat to spread.



Hmm ok.  I kinda get it.  But the cold air return has me confused.  Is this so that whatever air is not yet heated goes by the stove and then gets heated?  I've never heard of that before.  What are some ways that this is done?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Well, I have no experience with vents, etc, but, as someone mentioned, code typically restricts this because a fire could spread via your heat path. I still think heating the whole house



Right, but again, what are some ways other than those corner/doorway fans that people have used to spread the heat more efficiently?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Um. . .$$$ forced air wood-burning furnace.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Um. . .forced air wood-burning furnace.



Ha!  Funny...but ridiculous story...

We were throwing around the idea of going almost totally gas for this house....gas water heater, 2 fireplaces, stove, and oven.  The gas company said if we went with a gas furnace they'd run the line from down the street for $300.  Without the gas furnace they'd want over $3000 

I realize they are out to make money but holy crap!! I would think all the stuff we're installing would use a LOT more gas than just a furnace!  

So here we are in a wood burning stove/insert thread....

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Open Office has a complete drawing program in it. It's called "Draw".

I would suggest more background reading on the topic. There are a lot of threads on this topic and some good articles. Search for "basement heating". Here's some to get you started:

http://www.woodheat.org/planning/heatdist.htm
http://www.woodheat.org/woodbook/woodbook.pdf
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23330/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/20970/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/19624/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/22429/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/23441/
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/five_essentials


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Seriously, there are furnaces that burn wood instead of gas. That's basically what you are saying that you want, but they start @ $5k, I think.    p.s. F the gas co's.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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Wow!  Thanks for those links.  I didn't see any of those threads when searching before.  Interesting you should link to "wood heat"...that is the name of the place my parents bought their wood insert from back in the 90's.  They're still in business but with a limited selection and slightly higher prices than others in the area.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Seriously, there are furnaces that burn wood instead of gas. That's basically what you are saying that you want, but they start @ $5k, I think.    p.s. F the gas co's.



Well we plan to put central A/C in at some point but the wood furnace would mean duct work and such which...after the $5K would be pretty expensive in the grand scheme of things.  Our cheapest option would be to just buy a $2K insert and slap it in the basement.  But it looks like, unless I get one big enough and figure out an efficient way to circulate the air...that's not gonna happen.  Next cheapest would be a stove in the living room...then a fireplace/insert in the living room...and after that we're back at the wood furnace/ductwork again...

But I'm learning!

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## oldspark (Jul 7, 2010)

I know you will run into an explanation but the cold air return allows the cool air to be cycled back to heat source and be reheated.


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## fossil (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> ...I'm still VERY curious what sort of hearth is being spoken of for a stove.  Again, I thought it was just a freestanding box with a pipe going into the wall (drywall) no?...



No, it's not that simple.  All of the appliances we're talking about have minimum required Clearances To Combustible materials (CTC's) all around the exposed perimeter of the appliance, as well as hearth size and thermal resistance requirements.  These requirements are stove-specific, and they are described in detail in the manufacturer's documentation for each appliance.  These requirements must be met or exceeded during the installation planning and execution to ensure a safe system.  Stovepipe (also called connector pipe), wall/ceiling penetrations, flue liners and chimney pipe all must be certified as meeting requirements for heat resistance, must be compatible, and must be installed correctly.  No, it ain't just a box with a pipe through the wall.  Rick


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## daleeper (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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If a house has good air flow from room to room and floor to floor then the heat/cold will travel into/out of those rooms and floors to distribute heat throughout the house.  Walls, doors, floors and ceilings block that flow and make it more difficult for heat to move into a particular area of the house.  A wood stove will heat  the room or area it is in very well if it is the proper sized stove (space heater).  Any additional area of the house that it heats is dependent on how the air flows through that space.

As to the hearth, that is the "area" that the stove sits.  Each stove has specific non-combustible clearances that have to be met, the hearth is to be built based on the requirements for the stove that will be placed in service.  It can be made of many different non-combustible materials.  The pipe going through the wall will have to have some non-combustible clearance also.

I keep hearing about the eye appeal of fireplace vrs. stove.  This is a personal preference that I really don't understand, but I am a function trumps eye-appeal person.  If you want the best bang for your buck, then a freestanding stove is what will work the best for your money.  I will say there are some high efficiency zero clearance fireplaces on the market that look real good, and should do a good job of heating, and even have the ability to tie into your furnace duct system, but by the time they are priced, I loose interest real fast.  To me, you are either interested in heating with wood or want eye candy, anything in between will be a comprise one way or the other.  (Putting flame suit on as I type)

Hope this helps some.  Keep asking questions.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

> emt1581 said:
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I understand.  When you first mentioned "stove pipe" I thought of something completely different.  It's common terminology on gun forums.  

I just got off the phone with the place we'd probably buy from locally.  He said the same as what I'm getting here...a basement stove/insert isn't going to heat a whole house this size.  Furthermore he said that if there wasn't originally two flues built into this chimney that you can't add another one...you need a separate pipe/chimney built.  He said there's a guy that can come out and take measurements/look around and it's a $75 fee that gets refunded into the price of a purchase...so it's basically free once you buy something from them.  

As I said, I'm learning but without that 2nd flue, it's going to be a little frustrating because efficiency will no longer be possible since we're restricted to just the basement.  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

daleeper said:
			
		

> If a house has good air flow from room to room and floor to floor then the heat/cold will travel into/out of those rooms and floors to distribute heat throughout the house.  Walls, doors, floors and ceilings block that flow and make it more difficult for heat to move into a particular area of the house.  A wood stove will heat  the room or area it is in very well if it is the proper sized stove (space heater).  Any additional area of the house that it heats is dependent on how the air flows through that space.
> 
> As to the hearth, that is the "area" that the stove sits.  Each stove has specific non-combustible clearances that have to be met, the hearth is to be built based on the requirements for the stove that will be placed in service.  It can be made of many different non-combustible materials.  The pipe going through the wall will have to have some non-combustible clearance also.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% with you.  If it was up to me I could live in a one room cabin (with or without plumbing and electricity).  Hell, I'm an Eagle Scout.  I LOVE roughing it!!  

Unfortunately if my wife isn't happy, it makes life difficult for me in more ways that one.  So yes, there has to be a compromise here.  If I can get her to go for a wood stove I will.  I think it's a MUCH better option because there's no electricity and in the LIKELY event of a power outage, it'll heat the same.  Maybe since it's down the basement she won't care as much...living room I think is going to be a different issue.   

I think the next step is going to be sitting down for a few hours and just reading through the links above.  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

I'd still consider putting an insert in the basement fireplace if that is where you expect to spend a lot of time in the winter. How large an insert will depend on how well the heat can circulate. For that, we need to see a rough layout of the place. 

If the basement is only going to be used occasionally, then I would put the primary heater in the primary living space, the first floor. There are other options for heating the basement on an occasional basis including some that might liberate the chimney. And there are some beautiful, wife pleasing stoves out there. My wife is pretty damn fussy, but she likes the stove and it is in our living room. Be patient and try to be flexible and creative when considering options. This is infrastructure, so it pays to do it right the first time.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I'd still consider putting an insert in the basement fireplace if that is where you expect to spend a lot of time in the winter. How large an insert will depend on how well the heat can circulate. For that, we need to see a rough layout of the place.
> 
> If the basement is only going to be used occasionally, then I would put the primary heater in the primary living space, the first floor. There are other options for heating the basement on an occasional basis including some that might liberate the chimney. And there are some beautiful, wife pleasing stoves out there. My wife is pretty damn fussy, but she likes the stove and it is in our living room. Be patient and try to be flexible and creative when considering options. This is infrastructure, so it pays to do it right the first time.



Check your PM's.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## fossil (Jul 7, 2010)

Encourage her to sit down with you and peruse some of what you'll find here:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/gallery/


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

+1 on form following function, but a stove doesn't have to be a black box. There are some beauteeful stoves out there. Mmm. . ._soapstone_. . .or cast iron enamelled in blue, green, white. . .


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Freestanding stove in the living room.  No fireplace required.  Hearth gate to keep baby at bay.



If there's no second flue in this chimney it won't work.  We'd need to build a second pipe (no way she'll go for that look) or another chimney which we can't afford.

If there is a second flue, then yes, that's what I'd prefer a stove.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

I'm not following the 2nd flue requirement.  Does this mean that you're insisting on a stove/insert in the basement, and one would go in the living room only if there were a 2nd flue?


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Well get ready for some pics gang!  And a huge thanks to BeGreen! 

-Emt1581


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## oldspark (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> I'm not following the 2nd flue requirement.  Does this mean that you're insisting on a stove/insert in the basement


 The flue he has comes up from basement if I follow correctly, needs the other one on the first floor.


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Well get ready for some pics gang!  And a huge thanks to BeGreen!
> 
> -Emt1581



Here ya go. Basement shots first, then the living room. 

Wondering if the throat of the chimney is large enough to accommodate a pair of insulated liners? Or perhaps a pellet stove + wood stove liner?


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Right, but 2 flues would be necessary only if there were 2 stoves, which is a possibility, but not a requirement.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> I'm not following the 2nd flue requirement.  Does that mean



Well without a second flue we could only use the basement fireplace on that chimney.  Now it was mentioned about sealing off from the basement and using it up on the main level but then that means the basement fireplace would be non-function which doesn't sit well with me considering it's potential.

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Just an FYI...the yellow chair is where the second flue (if there is one) would be...in the wall/corner.  

Thanks again BeGreen!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

I've seen it mentioned a few times about a wood liner and a pellet liner.  I'm not a big fan of pellets because they were REAALLLYYY hard to come by around here a few years ago.  I would have been screwed that winter.  But I'm guessing there's a difference in size or construction of the liner...if so please explain.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Pellet is 4".  Wood stove is 6". . .some 8".


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Anyhow, why would a stove in the living room be possible only with 2 flues? Don't want to lose use of fireplace in basement?


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Anyhow, why would a stove in the living room be possible only with 2 flues? Don't want to lose use of fireplace in basement?



Exactly!

Are you on a phone or something?  I'm guessing you are or else English isn't your first language.  I just ask because your mesages are short and choppy.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## daleeper (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Den said:
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After reading your responses to these posts, and re-reading your first, budget is important here.  In your first post, you mentioned that for a few thousand, a fireplace could be added to the living room upstairs (which is apparently what your wife wants).  I would question what kind of fireplace could be added for a few thousand that will be of any quality compared to a wood stove install at the same cost.  It could possibly be a heat loss situation instead of heat gain if a cheap inefficient fireplace is installed.    

Most of the high-efficiency zero clearance fireplaces will cost more than a few thousand by the time they are installed.  You need to know what fireplace they would be installing before you can make a good decision on that aspect, it could cost more than you think in the long run.  

You might be better off just installing the insert downstairs and see what it will do for you.  Then if you are not satisfied do the stove or fireplace upstairs when you can afford to do it right.


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## oldspark (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Anyhow, why would a stove in the living room be possible only with 2 flues? Don't want to lose use of fireplace in basement?


 Been answered about three times, the flue he has now is in the basement, to put a stove on the first floor he needs another flue. Its a one holer.


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## oldspark (Jul 7, 2010)

Nice house, put the stove in the basement and stay down there.


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

daleeper said:
			
		

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I've thought about that.  Cost-wise.

Initially I'm betting we'll start downstairs.  And if you look at the pics, a stove isn't possible with the small size of that hearth, and if we do go with something upstairs it'd almost have to be a stove because I can afford a hearth...I can't afford more than a few grand for a fireplace.

One thing I was going to ask is if these are that easy to transfer?  That is, say we get an insert in the basement and it doesn't do much to heat upstairs, can we rip it out and put it in a living room fireplace (if we did figure out a way to afford one)?

Lots of homework to do yet though.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Nice house, put the stove in the basement and stay down there.



I agree.   But she doesn't like the idea of going up and down the steps to a common area.  Plus that's already been claimed as my man cave for multiple reasons.  

My main concern is that upper level.  I suppose we can snuggle, but otherwise, and without using the cable/radiating heat in the ceilings (which is going to drive up the electric bill) ...there's going to be almost no heat getting upstairs from the basement.

-Emt1581


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## daleeper (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Transferring would depend on both the insert and fireplace installed.  In fact, you would need to check with your downstairs fireplace you now have to make sure it will allow an insert to be installed in it, but it does look like an insert would be your best option in the basement.  Some of the older prefabricated fireplaces do not have the structural integrity to handle the insert weight, and sometimes opening clearances can be a problem.


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

A stove is very transferable. But it doesn't make a lot of sense to build a new fireplace just to house an insert. It would be much cheaper to put in a new hearth with a new  freestanding stove, especially if the stove only needed a simple non-combustible surface for the hearth.  

If you like the idea of a stove, don't be constrained by the current, basement hearth. That hearth can be extended or a freestanding stove can be placed on the floor in front of the current hearth.


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Pellet is 4".  Wood stove is 6". . .some 8".



Most modern wood stoves are 6" pipe, some pellet stoves are 3".


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## oldspark (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> oldspark said:
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 If I had a man cave like that I would just heat that and let the rest of the family fend for them selves. :lol:


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## begreen (Jul 7, 2010)

:lol: LOL :lol:


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## emt1581 (Jul 7, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

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Now THERE'S an idea Me and Frank (my GSD) can chill (or warm up) downstairs and she can fend for herself.  Then again she has a circulatory issue so that would be pretty painful if I shut off the controls/heat up there.

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Den said:
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Well, if you're going to be stubborn about it, there's not much point in the 'Basement vs. Living Room' question.


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## ddddddden (Jul 7, 2010)

Yes, I'm posting from a not-so-smart phone. If I don't click on 'submit' within ~ 90 sec, I lose my posting.  If I want to post a longer msg, I have to do so with several edits. Doh! I missed your reply to my flue question because posted pics mess up my br0wser. . .when I try to view the last page of the thread, I get the last pic posted instead of the last msg.  Is there a pic showing your chimney to have only a single flue, or are we still playing 'What if?'


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## jeff_t (Jul 7, 2010)

Can tell it is the middle of the summer.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

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Oh I'm not being stuborn.  I really appreciate all the help everyone's given me.  It's just that I started this thread not knowing what the differences were between floors and such...now I have my answer, some homework to do, and I'll be able to make a more informed decision.  

THANKS!!

-Emt1581


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## btuser (Jul 8, 2010)

You'll lose the Man-cave as soon as your wife finds out how toasty that stove makes it.  Trust me, they're all sisters, brotha!


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## Dix (Jul 8, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> You'll lose the Man-cave as soon as your wife finds out how toasty that stove makes it.  Trust me, they're all sisters, brotha!



Naaaahhh, "wood sistahs" would put a wood stove on the main floor, and be done with it  ;-)


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## fossil (Jul 8, 2010)

I would've lost my exclusive claim to that "man cave" just as soon as I tried to stake it.  I never would have tried, anyway...it's too nice a space not to share with those I love...or even occasionally with some I don't love so much.  My label for it wouldn't be "man cave", it'd be "family room".  It's a great space, in which lots of good times can be had...even if (or especially if) it's co-ed.  But, hey, that's just me (er...us).  Rick


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> You'll lose the Man-cave as soon as your wife finds out how toasty that stove makes it.  Trust me, they're all sisters, brotha!



What I'd like to do is stock the bar (you can see it with those lovely bright orange stools),  put a nice flat screen and some comfy furniture down there and some other goodies I won't mention here...and have my own retreat.  If we put a hot tub in out on/next to the covered porch...all the better!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2010)

Turn off the heat upstairs and you'll be retreating to the wood shed.


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## btuser (Jul 8, 2010)

Another thought would be where the combustion air is going to come from.  Stoves/inserts in the basement usually have to compete with one or more fossil-burning appliances.  Things can go really, really wrong.  

My plan would be for the wood stove for basement family room and a gas fireplace (which can be direct vented and easily done) for the living room.  Natural gas is cheap (cheaper than cordwood in my area), and you wouldn't have to lug/store the wood upstairs.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Nah, I wouldn't really do that.  But I gotta work on getting her turned on to the idea/look of a wood stove.  It really does seem like our smartest bet, especially for the main level.  

I do have backups out the wazoo though due to her circulatory condition.  I've got 2 large Budddy heaters with an adapter for the 20lb tanks and a LOT of propane on hand!  I've got a bunch of space heaters and a generator to power them.  I've got hand warmers, heater blankets, a bag full of instant heat packs...and the list goes on.  It's safe to say she'll NEVER have to be cold. 

-Emt1581


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## fossil (Jul 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Turn off the heat upstairs and you'll be retreating to the wood shed.



Things could be worse.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> Another thought would be where the combustion air is going to come from.  Stoves/inserts in the basement usually have to compete with one or more fossil-burning appliances.  Things can go really, really wrong.
> 
> My plan would be for the wood stove for basement family room and a gas fireplace (which can be direct vented and easily done) for the living room.  Natural gas is cheap (cheaper than cordwood in my area), and you wouldn't have to lug/store the wood upstairs.



Read my earlier post on what the gas company said....they can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not understanding what you mean though.  There's ZERO other "fossil fueled" devices in the house.  Water heater and ALL appliances are electric.  I just bought a riding mower tonight and I have a snow blower but those are out in the garage.  So I'm not sure where you were going or what you meant with the fossil fuel comment.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2010)

The first cold day you have that woodstove or insert cooking, she will be convinced. Hard to beat wood heat.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> The first cold day you have that woodstove or insert cooking, she will be convinced. Hard to beat wood heat.



That's a good point.  Off topic but what's a good price to pay for a cord?  It's been over 10 years since my dad bought a cord so I have no clue.  Is it dependent upon the area?  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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WOW Add a .223 instead of that lever gun and that would be the PERFECT man-cave 

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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He meant other appliances competing for combustion air. Keep on reading about basement installations and you will see what was meant. In your case, it might just be a clothes dryer and maybe a bathroom fan? Don't worry about it until you know it's an issue.


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Till winter rolls around.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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Ohhh ok.  Yeah there'll be a clothes dryer and a bathroom fan in the basement and a few fans on each other level.  I've never heard of this before.  I'm still not understanding the risk/problem though...  

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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See my above post on back-up heat sources. 

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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That's a regional thing. It depends on the species of wood, time of year, seasoning, whim of the seller, etc. Ask around locally and pay a little more for wood from a seller that has a good, year after year, reputation. It's worth it. 

Whatever you find, get at least a couple of cords of 16" seasoned wood bought and stacked now. Modern stoves do not like semi-seasoned wood and don't produce a lot of heat if you try to burn it. This is the most common complaint we hear come November.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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Oh good to know!! 

I figure I'll check Craigslist initially, but other than that I really don't know how to find someone that has a "good rep".  I mean everyone I know has a gas fireplace...for the look.  No one serious about wood heating.  So how do I find someone in my area?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
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This doc explains it on page 3 & 4.
http://tinyurl.com/2cpmeop


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## btuser (Jul 8, 2010)

> Read my earlier post on what the gas company said....they can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I'm not understanding what you mean though.  There's ZERO other "fossil fueled" devices in the house.  Water heater and ALL appliances are electric.  I just bought a riding mower tonight and I have a snow blower but those are out in the garage.  So I'm not sure where you were going or what you meant with the fossil fuel comment.
> 
> ...



If you're all electric then you're at the low end of "do I have to worry about this" spectrum.  A gas/oil burning appliance will need combustion air to burn, so does a wood stove.  An atomspheric gas boiler is no match compared to a well-drafting wood stove, and even it was oil burner/power-vented it will suck the flue gas right out the barometric damper  But you're electric so I wouldn't worry.

I would have to pay $300/cord for dry wood, $250 for "seasoned" wood, and $200 for a decent cord.  You can get deals if you buy more at a time and save the driver trips.  I just got 4 REALLY GOOD cords @ $170/cord.   Wood is better than oil right now and 2x as good as electric (my rate is about $.19/KW) but still not as good as gas.  I live in Southern NH.  

Have you run the numbers on what a gas conversion would cost/save for your heating and hot water?  Why not take the offer of $300 for a gas hookup and go with a 90+ furnace that could direct vent, then you've just regained another flue for a possible wood stove in another area?   Ahhh, I love spending other people's money.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

You mean that part about the down/thermal drafts?  Seems like that's only if I have a few fireplaces.  Hopefully we'll figure out a way to get a stove upstairs and then use the downstairs for either an insert of some sort or just a regular fireplace (if entertaining or whatever).  

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> > Read my earlier post on what the gas company said....they can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> > I'm not understanding what you mean though.  There's ZERO other "fossil fueled" devices in the house.  Water heater and ALL appliances are electric.  I just bought a riding mower tonight and I have a snow blower but those are out in the garage.  So I'm not sure where you were going or what you meant with the fossil fuel comment.
> >
> ...



Woah! I thought a good cord would be like $150-ish!  Seems like the cost of wood has gone up from the 90's.  I have not done the numbers on gas but I want a fire of some sort...for light, heat and ambiance.  Unless a gas furnace would be ridiculously cheaper I wouldn't be interested.  Plus I like being independent.  I can always get more wood or find stuff to burn if need be.  I don't want to have to worry about a supply line or price going through the roof and such.

Thanks though!

-Emt1581


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## btuser (Jul 8, 2010)

Not so much downdraft because the flue is cold, but the suction caused by the draft of a hot flue.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Looks like a cord is a little cheaper in my area. 

http://allentown.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=167&subAreaID;=&query=wood+cord&catAbb=sss

There's already a wood rack behind the treeline of my property and the current owners are leaving me a wood dolly.  So maybe I'll grab a cord or two now and cover it up that way I'll have it for the winter.  

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Something we haven't focused a whole lot on is the idea of a wood stove in the living room and it's capabilities.  If I were to put a stove in the living room...would it heat the upstairs bedrooms fairly well? 

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## BrotherBart (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Something we haven't focused a whole lot on is the idea of a wood stove in the living room and it's capabilities.  If I were to put a stove in the living room...would it heat the upstairs bedrooms fairly well?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Emt1581



Mine does. Heats both floors. As I have said here before, I sleep under a sheet year round. And yes I am in balmy Northern Virginia. We only got down to five degrees last January, with three feet of snow. Kind of a temperate climate.

Of course the other three feet that fell on top of it before it melted pissed me off.


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## Dix (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Something we haven't focused a whole lot on is the idea of a wood stove in the living room and it's capabilities.  If I were to put a stove in the living room...would it heat the upstairs bedrooms fairly well?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Emt1581



Probably, depends on the layout. 

I'm rounding up the "sistahs", this is getting out of control. You guys have forgotten us , yet again.

I bet it'd be a done deal, for the sistahs, put a stove on the first floor, and git 'er dun.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

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Wait...what?? What's getting out of control?  Who have I forgotten?  Do I need to put my body armor on and hide under the bed or something???

-Emt1581


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## Dix (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
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Yes. All of the above  :coolsmirk:


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## Dix (Jul 8, 2010)

I advised on "get your wood now" on page 1, I believe.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

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I think someone's been nippin the hooch..... 

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> I advised on "get your wood now" on page 1, I believe.



Who the hell remembers back that far?!?!

It does seem like a lot do it though.  We close on the 22nd.  I plan to figure out what we're going with and get two cords ASAP then cover them up with a tarp and wait for winter like a kid on Christmas Eve 

-Emt1581


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## Dix (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
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Nope, not tonight.


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## Dix (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
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Cover top only, after it's stacked.

If the weather is good, hold of on the covering. Wood needs air  flow to dry.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

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Other than putting a canopy over the wood pile...how do you cover just the top?  Also, if there's any sort of wind when it rains, isn't the rest of the pile going to get soaked??...or do yall run out and quick cover it in a rain storm?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 8, 2010)

Don't worry about it. Just cover the top of the pile. Any side wetness will dry out quickly.


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Forget about the rain.  It won't get "soaked," just damp about an eighth of an inch in at best, and it dries out in a day or two, hours in the stove room, minutes inside the stove.  If you really, really, really can't stand to leave it totally uncovered, you can cut down some tarp and string it just over the top of the pile, or better yet get a few metal roofing panels and weight them down with rocks or something.

We argue about this all the time on this forum, but one thing we agree on is never, never cover the whole shebang because it just holds in the moisture the wood is trying to get rid of.   I don't cover my stacks at all, even in winter, and the worst that happens is it's a little damp on the outside when I bring it in and takes a couple hours near the stove to dry out completely, maybe a day if it's stacked on the other side of the room away from the stove.

But you really have to get your wood and get it stacked outside loosely NOW.  It's no kidding that the new stoves/inserts require totally dry wood to work properly (and not gunk up your chimney with creosote), and starting now with green wood, you're going to have your problems as it is.

Come over to the Woodshed forum and talk about wood supply and folks can give you the lowdown.  One word of warning.  If you find somebody on craigislist advertising "seasoned wood," it won't be.


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## ddddddden (Jul 8, 2010)

Also, I think you mentioned a wood rack behind the trees. . .you want your wood out baking under the summer sun, not under the shade of trees, especially if you have only ~ 4 mo. to get it dried out.  If your father's Osburn is much over ~ 20 yrs old, it's "pre-EPA." As has already been mentioned, but perhaps underestimated by you, newer "EPA stoves" are much more picky about their fuel being dry. "I can always find something to burn" is not as doable with the new stoves, unless you are talking about finding something dry like 2x4's or wood bricks. Around here, nobody sells dry firewood anymore, except for the $4 bundles @ Kroger. IME, the wood vendors on Craigslist are con artists who either don't know what "seasoned" means, or don't care and will just tell you whatever they think you want to hear. Best price around here is $300 for a dump truck load that's supposed to be ~ 2.5 cords. . .works out to ~ $1 /cu ft.


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 8, 2010)

Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue.  Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved.  I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove.  After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead.  Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces.  An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace.  A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room.  I'm a total, complete, abject convert.

But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves.  Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue.  Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved.  I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove.  After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead.  Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces.  An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace.  A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room.  I'm a total, complete, abject convert.
> 
> But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves.  Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.



I appreciate your reply.  No offense though but you ARE posting on this forum...that sort of makes you more biased than the "typical" gal in terms of fireplaces, stoves, etc...  I think what I'll do is explain that if we get the stove and don't have to spend thousands on a fireplace, she can get the granite counter tops...

BTW, by handsomest do you mean the colorful ones with the glazing on them?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Also, I think you mentioned a wood rack behind the trees. . .you want your wood out baking under the summer sun, not under the shade of trees, especially if you have only ~ 4 mo. to get it dried out.  If your father's Osburn is much over ~ 20 yrs old, it's "pre-EPA." As has already been mentioned, but perhaps underestimated by you, newer "EPA stoves" are much more picky about their fuel being dry. "I can always find something to burn" is not as doable with the new stoves, unless you are talking about finding something dry like 2x4's or wood bricks. Around here, nobody sells dry firewood anymore, except for the $4 bundles @ Kroger. IME, the wood vendors on Craigslist are con artists who either don't know what "seasoned" means, or don't care and will just tell you whatever they think you want to hear. Best price around here is $300 for a dump truck load that's supposed to be ~ 2.5 cords. . .works out to ~ $1 /cu ft.



I dunno...I've had awesome luck with Craigslist on everything from boats to motors and just tonight I bought a riding lawn mower...KILLER deals to!  

In terms of wood... what do you classify as seasoned?  Again, how do I tell if someone is reputable without knowing anyone else who buys wood??

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Er, what I was trying to tell you is that I was totally, utterly biased the other way until I ended up with a stove.  Actually having the stove is what turned me around.  Get it?  And I'm sure not a "typical gal" because I wouldn't have those wildly impractical granite countertops if you paid me, either.  But the point on the stove is that there are many absolutely beautiful ones out there if you look around a bit.

Not sure what "colorful ones with glazing" means, but go browse some woodstove manufacturers' Web sites and see what's out there.  I'm partial to soapstone, which is what I have, both for the quality of the heat and the look.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

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How are granite counter tops impractical?  

I'll have to look up those soapstone ones.

-Emt1581


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Hey, then go for it.  We'll still be here to hold your hand while you cry later.  Unless it's been cut AND split AND stacked for a year or more, it ain't "seasoned" by the standards of modern stoves.  "Seasoned" on Craigslist or even from most local dealers/suppliers generally means they cut the tree down a month or so ago and left it lying in the woods, or at best cut it to 8 or 10-foot lengths.  That's only fractionally better than green.

Ask your stove dealer for a suggestion.  Look up firewood dealers in the yellow pages.  There's at least half-decent odds that somebody who's in the business full time will tell you the truth about when the wood was cut and whether it was split sooner than the day after you call.  If somebody's charging within around 50 bucks of the regular going rate for green firewood for "seasoned," that's an immediate tip-off that it's not.  And it's not necessarily because they're dishonest, it's just that the old pre-EPA stoves didn't need such dry wood, nor do open fireplaces, and most folks are going by those standards.  Around where I live, where ancient "smoke dragon" stoves are the norm, some folks just wait until they run out of firewood in mid-winter, then go out and cut down a couple trees, split them up and throw them right into the stove.

Not saying you couldn't luck out.  It does happen once in a blue moon.  But the odds are overhwelmingly against it.

If you get in a load of green wood well split down (you may have to offer extra for that) and stack it as loosely as you can in a windy, sunny place, you might get by this winter without really major agony.  Again, the Woodshed forum is the better place for this discussion, but some woods, like ash, dry much faster than others, like oak.  So what kind of wood you end up with will make a major difference.

As a last resort, look for kiln-dried wood, which goes at a premium but will be dry enough to burn very well.


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Ever knock over a drinking glass, never mind a wine glass, on a granite countertop?


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

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No.  I haven't knocked a glass over in years.  Our everyday cookware is Corell which you can pretty much slam on concrete.  I use plastic cups or beer mugs.  Other than if you're clumbsy...how are they impractical?

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 8, 2010)

If the Mrs. likes granite, I would wager that she'd go for a soapstone stove in the living room.  mmm. . .soapstone.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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RE: Stoves . . . ah, not all stoves look the same . . . sure if you want a traditional matte black cast iron stove you can get one . . . or a flat black steel stove . . . but many folks find the soapstone stoves or the enameled stoves to be mighty pretty . . . and some say it becomes a focal point of their home . . . especially in the winter. Myself, I went with a matte black stove . . . a) it was cheaper, b) it was available right then . . . however if I had to do anything different I might have sprung for the fancier looking stove.

RE: Hearth . . . all free standing stoves still need a hearth . . . well unless they're built right on a concrete pad . . . the hearth (also known as the hearth pad) protects the area from the heat radiating from the bottom of the stove in some cases and protects nearby combustible flooring (i.e. wood floor, carpeting, etc.) from errant sparks, embers or the coals which sometimes roll out of the stove.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Ah, fire school is open . . . and you're in the right place for learning.

Heat Transfer: There are three basic ways that heat can transfer from Point A (i.e. the source of the heat) to Point B (which in the case of staying warm in the winter would probably be you.) 

There is conductive heating . . . best example here is to go over to the hot stove and lay your hand on it (no, no, no . . . I was just kidding) . . . in conductive heating the heat is transferred through direct contact. Another way of thinking is that when you fry up some eggs in the morning the heat is transferred to your frying pan from the gas stove by the direct contact with the flame on the metal frying pan. For the purposes of heating a home conductive heating doesn't come into play unless you have to consider clearances from combustibles since putting something that can catch on fire (i.e. 2 x 4, cardboard box, etc.) directly against a hot stove or stove pipe can catch on fire in time.

There is radiational heating . . . best example here is when you're outside in the sun shine and you can feel the sun on your face. The heat here is being transferred through radiational waves so to speak. In home heating you experience this with a woodstove when you're sitting in front of the stove and you can feel the heat coming out of the stove. I would wager most woodstoves use radiational heating to transfer the heat from the stove to heat you and your home. 

Finally there is convectional heating . . . best example here perhaps (given the fact that I am just a dumb firefighter and not a scientist) is when you turn on a fan on a hot, muggy day and the fan begins to blow that hot, muggy air around. Here heat is transferred through a medium . . . which most typically is either air or water. Most central heating systems use convectional heating by transferring the heat they generate from burning oil or gas to heated air which blows throughout an entire home thanks to ductwork and a large blower or by circulating heated water through pipes in the case of a hot water heating system. Some woodstoves use convectional heating by incorporating shrouds or shields.

So what does this all have to do with woodstoves . . . well basically this is the long explanation as to why woodstoves are considered space heaters. Since they primarily use raditional heating with the waves radiating out until they strike something (a wall, furniture, you) they tend to heat up the immediate space very well . . . but as you get further and further from the source of the heat generally the cooler the temps will be. While you can utilize some of the convective properties in some woodstoves and even set up your own convective current by using floor fans to move the heated air from one room to another, most folks will tell you that in most homes it can be a challenge to get the entire home heated to the same temp level and depending on the size of your home you may not be able to heat your entire home.

Now this doesn't mean heating with a woodstove means you need to have a woodstove in each room . . . or that you can't heat an entire home with a stove . . . rather it means folks need to know that woodstoves most effectively heat smaller spaces . . . and if you're being realistic you need to know that it will not heat the same as a hot water baseboard oil boiler with the same temp in each room of the house. Folks who think they can install a woodstove anywhere in their house and then expect to have the temp exactly at 72 degrees in every room in the house will most likely be disappointed.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Continued from previous post . . .

Woodstoves can be pretty efficient and can heat your entire home, but again they do have their limitations. Perhaps the statement closest to the truth about woodstoves being space heaters is your second statement . . . woodstoves are designed to heat a certain space and square footage. 

RE: Hearth. I think some folks think of a hearth and fireplace with the mantle and brickwork as the same thing . . . however the best way to think of a hearth is to think of it as a bath matt . . . for your woodstove. Having a bath matt when you get out of the shower is nice . . . it provides protection to you so you don't slip on the wet tile or vinyl floor and some folks think it kind of compliments the shower and bathroom. A hearth is the same thing . . . it provides protection to the floor if the woodstove puts out a lot of heat and it provides protection from errant embers, sparks, coals, etc. I guess the best way to think of a hearth is not as a fireplace surround, but rather think of it has floor protection for a woodstove. In some cases the floor protection just provides simple ember/spark protection . . . and in some stove models' cases the floor protection has to have a specific insulation number since the stove radiates a lot of heat through the bottom of the firebox.

Now that said . . . some folks with woodstoves build a hearth . . . but then also add on to it with a vertical element . . . in some cases to provide additional protection to nearby walls . . . or in many cases to just make things look a little bit nicer looking.

As for what the hearth can look like . . . it certainly could be built of bricks . . . and some folks do so . . . however depending on what the stove calls for and what local inspectors and your insurance company are looking for you could have a hearth built with porcelain tiles, granite, sandstone, soapstone, marble, glass, etc. 

RE: I know what you're saying about the insert. My wife was sold on the idea of an insert . . . she thought it would take up less space and look more like a fireplace. If I had an existing fireplace quite honestly I would probably have gone with a wood burning insert. However, you need to take your wife and check out some of the stores selling woodstoves . . . today's woodstoves take up less space than before thanks to many models with close clearances and quite honestly there are some really beautiful looking woodstoves out there in enamel and soapstone . . . add in a nice looking hearth and you end up with a nice focal point in the room. Now if your wife is thinking about the ambiance of a fireplace . . . well the woodstoves today have large windows to give you a nice view of the fire . . . and you're getting the benefit of heat at the same time.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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As mentioned just cutting a bunch of holes in your floor may not be the best or safest thing to do . . . as for moving heat . . . save your money . . . don't bother with the fancy schmancy whirligigs that sit on the woodstove or even the doorway fans . . . best thing is to get a floor fan or two, position it in your doorway pointing at the stove and it will set up an air current (again . . . establishing a convective current) to move the heat around the house . . . which is how I manage to heat most of my house with a single woodstove.)


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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I'm still plodding trhough this thread, but one of the first things you need to do to help us help you is post a plan of your house . . . don't worry . . . none of us will attempt to sneak in and steal your Ritz crackers at night . . . posting a plan showing the rough dimensions of the house, stairs, lay-out, etc. will help us determine what type of heating system might best suit your needs. For example, if you had a 5,000 square foot house there are few, if any, woodstoves that would suit your needs . . . and instead most folks would suggest you only look at a wood boiler or wood furnace . . . depending on your lay-out we might suggest nixxing the hook-ups and going somewhere else completely.

Second . . . if you're serious about heating with wood you don't want to go cheap . . . "slapping" an appliance (that routinely burns at 600-1,200 degrees F) into place and hoping to save money by doing so is not a safe, long-term view. Trust me . . . it is far better to spend a little extra . . . and have a warm house and a safe house.

Finally, be aware that paying for the wood burning insert or stove is only half of the equation . . . you may or may not be able to use the existing flue . . . or you may be able to use it and need to install a liner . . . or you may end up having to put in a whole other chimney (Class A or masonry) . . . and then you will most likely need to build a hearth . . . heating with wood can be a bit expensive at the get-go . . . but it has long term economic benefits if you stick with it.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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This is promising . . . a seller that seems to know his stuff. What product lines does he carry?

Also . . . other folks and myself keep trying to help you out here, but you don't seem to be hearing what we're saying . . . you need to think outside of the box . . . you may not be restricted to just one or two places in the home . . . for example you may be able to put a woodstove somewhere else in the house you haven't even considered . . . granted it may cost you the price of a Class A chimney . . . but if doing so means you're safe and warm and it looks good . . . then the price may be worth it.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

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I think you need to start by stopping at several different woodstove companies and picking up some brochures . . . this may show your wife that there are many different styles and looks when it comes to woodstoves and that they're not all large, black boxes with a pipe sticking out of them. 

I like Jotuls for their look . . . other folks don't. I don't care for the look of Woodstock Soapstone stoves . . . they seem to fancy for my tastes, but other folks love them. Get in touch with the local dealers and see what products they have . . . and show your wife. Again, the enameled stoves in different colors and the soapstone stoves are rather nice looking.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Just an FYI...the yellow chair is where the second flue (if there is one) would be...in the wall/corner.
> 
> Thanks again BeGreen!
> 
> -Emt1581



If there is a second flue here . . . it seems to me that you might be able to do a nice corner installation with a free standing stove.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

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Another thought . . . if the basement is going to be your domain . . . what about getting a large, free-standing stove for down here. In this case she wouldn't see the stove . . . and you would gain a bit more in terms of more heat coming off the stove . . . heck, in this case you could even get one of those ugly steel stoves like a Blaze King.  Of course it may not be as efficient, but as others have mentioned there are folks who can and have heated their homes with a woodstove in the basement . . . not as efficient and you may need to work some at moving the heat . . . but this may be a good solution for you.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Something we haven't focused a whole lot on is the idea of a wood stove in the living room and it's capabilities.  If I were to put a stove in the living room...would it heat the upstairs bedrooms fairly well?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Emt1581



In my case . . . yes . . . the woodstove on the first floor easily heats the second floor . . . master bedroom on the first floor is cooler (this is farther away from the woodstove . . . but my wife and I like the bedroom to be a bit cooler.)


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

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+1 tothe Dixie Chick.  I'll remember the Woodburning Sisters!


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Just cover the top . . . with a tarp . . . plywood . . . metal roofing . . . etc. Rain (and snow for that matter) is typically surface moisture and will go away in a day or two . . . well the snow will not go away in the dead of winter in Maine . . . but it doesn't matter anyways since most of the rain/snow doesn't blow directly sideways . . . heck even when I leave my piles uncovered you'll often see the rain only penetrate a foot or two down from the top.

Holy cow . . . I don't think I ever wrote so much on a topic . . . and no doubt I'm repeating things other folks have already said . . . but that's OK . . . repetition is good . . . repetition is good . . . repetition is good. 

By the way EMT . . . I don't know if I ever said it, but welcome to hearth.com . . . you're in a good place to learn all you ever wanted to know or not know about burning wood and keeping warm.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> Here's one "sistah's" perspective on the stove versus insert issue.  Before I had a stove, all I knew was fireplaces, which I loved.  I felt cheated when I couldn't find a home that I liked with a fireplace and had to settle for a woodstove.  After I lit the first fire in it, you could not have paid me a million bucks to have an insert instead.  Woodstoves are magical in a way that inserts just aren't, nor are fireplaces.  An insert just feels to me like a thick glass barrier between me and the fireplace.  A handsome woodstove is pure joy just on its own terms, radiates heat on five sides and doesn't require a noisy blower to warm up the room.  I'm a total, complete, abject convert.
> 
> But on the esthetics, there are woodstoves and there are woodstoves.  Some are un-handsome and utilitarian "black boxes," but others are the handsomest piece of furniture in any room, even when they're not going.



Good perspective . . . and it's worth noting that Gyrfalcon has one of those very sharp looking soapstone stoves . . . I tell you EMT . . . you might want to show your wife some of these stoves.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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The definition of seasoned varies . . . most folks here say the best definition is wood that is below X% moisture level as determined by a moisture meter (I think they say 22% . . . maybe it was 28% moisture level . . . but don't hold me to that.) Me, I'm just a dumb Maine hick . . . I cut, split and stack my wood at least a year in advance . . . and truth be told I'm now two years ahead . . . which pretty much guarantees me that the wood I have will be seasoned enough to burn without sizzling, spitting water, smoking up the glass or not igniting easily . . . all issues folks typically experience in the first year when they buy "seasoned" wood and expect it to be great for burning.

As others have mentioned . . . get your wood as early as possible . . . because even if folks say it is seasoned it may not truly be seasoned. Heck, some old time wood burners consider wood that was cut down in the winter and left as tree length until bucked and split in the fall seasoned . . . and I would wager a week's pay that this so-called seasoned wood would not pass muster in most EPA woodstoves.

Reputable? Ask around . . . but be aware that many folks who are burning in pre-EPA woodstoves don't know the difference between truly seasoned wood. Your best bet when it comes to buying wood is to buy early and give yourself some time . . . otherwise buy a moisture meter to check the dealer's wood and ask questions as to when the wood was bucked up and split.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

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HehHeh . . . I'm a bit slow . . . I didn't realize until today you were a gal . . . and you sound a lot like my wife . . . she doesn't want granite countertops . . . something about having to maintain them and bacterial growth.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 8, 2010)

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Definitely look up Hearthstone and Woodstock Soapstone stoves . . . if I didn't have a Jotul I would be sorely tempted to have a soapstone stove. I really like the look . . . and I think your wife might like them . . . they're almost a work of art or fine furniture rather than a utiliarian heating device.


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 8, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> HehHeh . . . I'm a bit slow . . . I didn't realize until today you were a gal . . . and you sound a lot like my wife . . . she doesn't want granite countertops . . . something about having to maintain them and bacterial growth.



Well, I don't say "ew!" a lot or load up the smiley-faces and multiple exclamation points and freak out over the prospect of a little ash floating out of the stove, so you're excused.  I somehow managed to miss that whole part of girl training.

I'm just a person liike the rest of you, though vastly frustrated by my lack of experience with tools (now, that is part of girl training for sure, unfortunately) and deeply envious of the natural physical strength that allows you guys to wrangle your own firewood.

Guys, please, do your daughters a huge favor and bring them up to be comfortable with and knowledgeable about tools and to help with handyman projects around the house.

As for the granite countertops-- I've been mystified since they became so popular, almost mandatory for a "nice kitchen."  Of all the things to spend a lot of extra cash on, they're on the very bottom of my list.  Yes, they do look nice, but for a real working kitchen, give me high-quality formica any day at a fraction of the price.  They're more resilient, require no maintenance at all other than a damp sponge, and nowadays can look only fractionally less handsome than the pricey granite.  I freely admit, though, I'm in a tiny, tiny minority, so perhaps I'm peculiar.


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## emt1581 (Jul 8, 2010)

Holy hell Jake!! I can only imagine you are bored and sitting at the station waiting for a call.  Otherwise how did you spend a few HOURS replying??  Either way thanks for the thoughts/info.   Unfortunately I'm running late but tonight I'll be the one sitting at the station, so I'll reply then.  

Thanks again!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> RE: Stoves . . . ah, not all stoves look the same . . . sure if you want a traditional matte black cast iron stove you can get one . . . or a flat black steel stove . . . but many folks find the soapstone stoves or the enameled stoves to be mighty pretty . . . and some say it becomes a focal point of their home . . . especially in the winter. Myself, I went with a matte black stove . . . a) it was cheaper, b) it was available right then . . . however if I had to do anything different I might have sprung for the fancier looking stove.
> 
> RE: Hearth . . . all free standing stoves still need a hearth . . . well unless they're built right on a concrete pad . . . the hearth (also known as the hearth pad) protects the area from the heat radiating from the bottom of the stove in some cases and protects nearby combustible flooring (i.e. wood floor, carpeting, etc.) from errant sparks, embers or the coals which sometimes roll out of the stove.



Yeah, we gotta do some homework on hearth designs after "we" decide which stove to get.

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> I'm still plodding trhough this thread, but one of the first things you need to do to help us help you is post a plan of your house . . . don't worry . . . none of us will attempt to sneak in and steal your Ritz crackers at night . . . posting a plan showing the rough dimensions of the house, stairs, lay-out, etc. will help us determine what type of heating system might best suit your needs. For example, if you had a 5,000 square foot house there are few, if any, woodstoves that would suit your needs . . . and instead most folks would suggest you only look at a wood boiler or wood furnace . . . depending on your lay-out we might suggest nixxing the hook-ups and going somewhere else completely.
> 
> Second . . . if you're serious about heating with wood you don't want to go cheap . . . "slapping" an appliance (that routinely burns at 600-1,200 degrees F) into place and hoping to save money by doing so is not a safe, long-term view. Trust me . . . it is far better to spend a little extra . . . and have a warm house and a safe house.
> 
> Finally, be aware that paying for the wood burning insert or stove is only half of the equation . . . you may or may not be able to use the existing flue . . . or you may be able to use it and need to install a liner . . . or you may end up having to put in a whole other chimney (Class A or masonry) . . . and then you will most likely need to build a hearth . . . heating with wood can be a bit expensive at the get-go . . . but it has long term economic benefits if you stick with it.



As far as a layout, I didn't draw a pic but I did give a decent worded layout.  If I can figure it out, I'll happily share a general layout.  That's to be continued though...

I won't skimp on quality in terms of buying a stove, but I'm not going to get obnoxiously expensive either.  Again efficiency is the name of the game for us.

If we can't use what's already there we're not putting anything additional in.  No way I'm going to pay for another chimney and such.  In that case we'd go with a basement insert/stove and just settle for heating the bedroom up before we hop in bed...

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> This is promising . . . a seller that seems to know his stuff. What product lines does he carry?
> 
> Also . . . other folks and myself keep trying to help you out here, but you don't seem to be hearing what we're saying . . . you need to think outside of the box . . . you may not be restricted to just one or two places in the home . . . for example you may be able to put a woodstove somewhere else in the house you haven't even considered . . . granted it may cost you the price of a Class A chimney . . . but if doing so means you're safe and warm and it looks good . . . then the price may be worth it.




http://stovesnstuff.com/woodstoves.html


Unless a "Class A Chimney" is less than $1000 there's no way we can afford to do such a thing so again, we have to make do with what we have. 

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

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Hearthstone and Harman were the only two I saw that had soap stone models.

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
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Dixie Chicks...when they first came out I was in the 2nd row at one of their concerts.....

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> The definition of seasoned varies . . . most folks here say the best definition is wood that is below X% moisture level as determined by a moisture meter (I think they say 22% . . . maybe it was 28% moisture level . . . but don't hold me to that.) Me, I'm just a dumb Maine hick . . . I cut, split and stack my wood at least a year in advance . . . and truth be told I'm now two years ahead . . . which pretty much guarantees me that the wood I have will be seasoned enough to burn without sizzling, spitting water, smoking up the glass or not igniting easily . . . all issues folks typically experience in the first year when they buy "seasoned" wood and expect it to be great for burning.
> 
> As others have mentioned . . . get your wood as early as possible . . . because even if folks say it is seasoned it may not truly be seasoned. Heck, some old time wood burners consider wood that was cut down in the winter and left as tree length until bucked and split in the fall seasoned . . . and I would wager a week's pay that this so-called seasoned wood would not pass muster in most EPA woodstoves.
> 
> Reputable? Ask around . . . but be aware that many folks who are burning in pre-EPA woodstoves don't know the difference between truly seasoned wood. Your best bet when it comes to buying wood is to buy early and give yourself some time . . . otherwise buy a moisture meter to check the dealer's wood and ask questions as to when the wood was bucked up and split.



Not a bad idea, I can ask at the stove shops.  I'm sure they'll be able to point me in the right direction.

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Hearthstone and Harman were the only two I saw that had soap stone models.
> 
> -Emt1581



Harman? Maybe Woodstock. There are also some nice soapstone clad boxes out there including the Bakers Oven Woodstove whose ad is popping up above this thread. Morso & Rais also come to mind.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Hearthstone and Harman were the only two I saw that had soap stone models.
> 
> -Emt1581



I will take a large bite out of any Harman soapstone stove you might point out to me.

Harman does steel stoves. Like God intended stoves to be. With a few cast iron offerings thrown in for the elite.


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## begreen (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Maybe we should back up and determine just what the budget is here for the basics - insert, liner, wood. Otherwise this is just summer speculation. Guestimate $400 for 2 cords of wood, $1500 for the liner, $2200 for the insert. When figuring the budget, can you wait until you get the tax credit to realize the full savings or is that too far out? The credit is on the whole installation.


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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Now I can't find them on the Harman website.  I guess I've been mistaken.  Shot in the dark though....I'm betting the soapstone models are among the most expensive....no?

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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What I've figured on pre-tax-credit is around $3500 for the stove and installation.

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Yes, it does command a premium, especially compared to a steel stove or insert.


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## begreen (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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OK, you aren't far off. That is close.


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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Just in the brief homework I've done the price range seems to be $1500-$3000 for stoves.  So I figured $3500 would be a good mid-point....plus I called the shop and asked the guy there.... 

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 9, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Harman does steel stoves. Like God intended stoves to be. With a few cast iron offerings thrown in for the elite.



That must be because St. Peter's front gate is made out of cast iron.


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## fossil (Jul 9, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

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Oh no...that old one has long since been replaced by one made entirely of Unobtainium.   %-P


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## Todd (Jul 9, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

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And soapstone pillars.


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## fossil (Jul 9, 2010)

Todd said:
			
		

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Yes, quite right...Unobtainium and Unaffordium.  I understand they're lovely.  Don't expect I'll ever see them. :lol:


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## btuser (Jul 9, 2010)

I like the steel stoves for the welded firebox.   It would be nice to dress up the front with some cast iron or stone, but that's what my hearth/mantle is there to do.  I like a lot of glass (which I know isn't great for combustion) so it feels like a fire.   I always hear how soapstone and cast iron have a more even heat, but when I look at the specific heat of steel vs CI vs stone there really isn't much of a storage capacity compared to keeping the BTUs in the wood and controlling the fire through a nice tight firebox.  If its about the looks then I agree, but I think the functional benefits were more of a factor before EPA rated stoves.


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

One thing I didn't think of until now is that a buddy of mine has a wood AND coal stove.  No one really suggested them here so I'm guessing maybe there's a reason for avoiding them.  He said with coal he can heat his whole home for $3 a day.  Sounded like a cool idea to me.  

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 9, 2010)

Most of us are not in coal regions. Drop in at www.nepacrossroads.com if coal is in your future.


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Most of us are not in coal regions. Drop in at www.nepacrossroads.com if coal is in your future.



Ahh ok, that makes sense.  I'm in PA...not sure if that's considered coal country by most.  Usually the mid south east is where I consider to be coal country.  If you listen to Billy Joel's song Allentown he says "they've taken all the coal from the ground" and I'm guessing that has to be true because our steel factory is now a casino...

-Emt1581


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## Dix (Jul 9, 2010)

My home was heated with coal for many years. My Mom put the stoves in when she thought oil at $.12 a gallon was outrageous  :gulp: 



> My question is, when it comes to wood inserts, do modern models throw enough heat to make it up two flights of stairs, without putting vents/registers in?  If I can put up a baby gate and just leave the basement door open that’d be nice to heat the home.  All we’d have to do is pick out a stove or an insert and have someone install it and a liner.
> Growing up we had an Osburn and that thing made the house toasty.  But then again it was in the family room on the main level.



You just answered your question


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## ddddddden (Jul 9, 2010)

You can see some soapstone prices @ www.woodstove.com and www.chimneysweeponline.com


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 9, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> You can see some soapstone prices @ www.chimneysweeponline.com



You want to heat a large house with wood only and also keep an esthetically apparently very fussy wife happy, you're going to have to spend bucks.


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## ddddddden (Jul 9, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> You want to heat a large house with wood only and also keep an esthetically apparently very fussy wife happy, you're going to have to spend bucks.


Well said. . .the falcon cannot hear the falconer.


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## ddddddden (Jul 9, 2010)

That said, look for 10-20% off-season discount on a stove.  Being up for a lil' DIY never hurt the budget either.


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> . . .being up for a lil' DIY never hurts the budget.



Why not...I've laid sidewalks, built rooms, and I dabble in electrical/plumbing....why not hearth building...

-Emt1581


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 9, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

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True dat.  But falcons only ever listen because they've been hoodwinked into thinking they have to anyway.  Once they get wise to the ruse, they're gone.


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## emt1581 (Jul 9, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

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I've never heard this falcon/falconer saying....what's it mean??

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, I reckon it means that, if this project goes well, you may experience the well known Hearth effect this winter. . .with the Mrs. losing layers of clothing and serving martinis fireside.        (For the original meaning, g00gle the phrase.)


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## firefighterjake (Jul 9, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

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My wife is the same way . . . and that's the way I like it . . . she's extremely real, uses little to no make-up (cover-up occasionally), doesn't do the "shopping" thing and quite honestly is a lot smarter and better than me at doing house renovation projects thanks to her Dad teaching her those skills when he renovated his house many years ago and his German work ethic required that all the children help work and learn how to use the tools. Sometimes I think the only reason she keeps me around is for disposing of dead critters that the cats bring home, emptying the cat boxes, crawling around in dirty, dark places and being able to lift heavy objects.  She's quite a catch . . . and I am thankful to have found her . . . heck . . . she's still teaching me skills when it comes to house renovation.

And yeah . . . she also agrees with you . . . I think she's leaning towards a formica, corian, etc. type of counter top when we get to the point where we do our kitchen renovation . . . for the same reasons -- ease to maintain, durability, no worry about bacteria, less expensive and as you mentioned the stuff today is most definitely not the stuff from the 1970s and 80s . . . I should know . . . our current kitchen has 1980s vintage pink formica . . . which will most definitely be going in the dumpster.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Holy hell Jake!! I can only imagine you are bored and sitting at the station waiting for a call.  Otherwise how did you spend a few HOURS replying??  Either way thanks for the thoughts/info.   Unfortunately I'm running late but tonight I'll be the one sitting at the station, so I'll reply then.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> -Emt1581



HehHeh . . . slow day . . . and about halfway through my replies I realized that I was going a little bit crazy on the keyboard with half a bazillion replies . . . I was hoping that I wasn't coming across at being a know-it-all or a bore.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Hearthstone has some very pretty looking stoves . . . as mentioned earlier a few models were in my top 5 list . . . you may want to show your wife some of these. 

I don't believe Harman has soapstone models though.

I don't know exactly where in Pennsylvania you are located . . . but the enamled Jotuls are also quite beautiful. Here's one dealer that may be in your neck of the woods.

http://www.shortsstoves.com/wood.html


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## btuser (Jul 9, 2010)

I feel compelled to do my own work.  I follow the Walden Woods approach to finance:  If I have to work 4 days to pay my bills for one day of money for me, then I'm really only making money for myself 50 days a year, and for the rest of the time someone else owns me.


My friend an I install almost the same stove.  We were talking about paybayck and what it would take compared oil vs wood ect.  I figred 5 years and he said about the same, which I kinda questioned because he buys his wood and I cut most of mine.  I also installed my own and he had someone install his, including hiring an electrician to install an outlet for his blower.  All in all I saved about $2000 over the cost of the setup including 1st year's wood, plus I got a Lopi with secondary bypass vs his Regency (which I would have bought to save myself $400, pretty much the same stove).   What he paid for the installation was entirely reasonable due to the flue height, the professional job they did, and that pesky zipcode upcharge that seems to come with the town I live in.  Long story short I saved 2 grand installing my own stove, and every year I save about $150-200 cleaning my own chimney.


 It blows my mind to see people slave away over what color stone and granite vs silestone when an extra 5 grand to sprayfoam their building evelope would pay dividends for the next 50 years!


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## firefighterjake (Jul 9, 2010)

fossil said:
			
		

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## firefighterjake (Jul 9, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Hearth building is a walk in the park . . . I'm an idiot when it comes to construction and I had no problem building a quality, safe hearth . . . once you see how easy and cheap it is to build a nice hearth you'll wonder why folks pay so much for those pre-made hearths . . . I mean we're talking ridiculously simple here.


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## firefighterjake (Jul 9, 2010)

EMT . . . did you ever get us a square footage figure on your house . . . why I am asking is that larger stoves are generally more expensive than smaller stoves . . . and what I'm really saying in a round a bout way is that while soapstone stoves and some of the fancier stoves may be more expensive you may find that depending on your size requirement the stoves may be in your financial ballpark . . . and sometimes paying a bit more to get something that you and your wife will like . . . and will find useful in terms of heating you and your home better may be worth the added expense.

What I'm saying is that to me it would be far better to spend a bit more and end up with a stove that looks good and more importantly heats the home . . . rather than spend less and end up with a stove that either doesn't look as nice or doesn't adequately heat the home. In my own mind, while the up-front cost of getting a stove I would like and find useful might be more money, if it means I am happier with the stove it just makes sense to go that route . . . try to look at this in the long term . . . 

Also, as others have mentioned there are ways to reduce your costs . . . scrounging wood vs. buying . . . installing the stove yourself . . . building your own hearth . . . break down the figures as to the cost and compare it to the cost of electricity, propane, oil, what-have you and see how many years it will take to recoup your investment . . . 

The most important thing in all of this . . . and with everyone's advice . . . is that you do what is right for you . . . and that you end up with something you can afford, something you and your wife both like and something that keeps you warm in middle of the winter . . . and for many more winters to come.


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## ddddddden (Jul 9, 2010)

Okay, if you DIY, the cost of materials for class A pipe outside the chimney vs. flex pipe inside the chimney should not be a deal breaker if that's what you need to do to locate the stove in a particular spot or to  reserve the chimney flue for the basement. A good price on 25' of 6" flex pipe is ~ $400. Most folks will tell you to insulate it for safety and optimal draft.  Add another $200.  Class A pipe runs $100 /3' section, and I've seen it for ~ $75.  So that'd be $800 for 24' of class A, which has insulation built in vs. $600 for relining your chimney with insulated flex pipe.  There would probably be some extras with class A, like an elbow piece, but I *think* you could do it for < $1k. If you were to run a pipe up the rear side of the chimney, so it wouldn't be visible from the street, I don't see why the Mrs. would object, especially if she understood that the optimal flue was a big part of what was keeping her warm.  Then again, I usually don't  understand women's objections.


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## btuser (Jul 9, 2010)

$600 for an insulated liner inside the old flue.  The smooth-wall flex is double thick and twice as heavy.


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## ddddddden (Jul 9, 2010)

Isn't the smooth-wall "Pro" flex more $ than regular flex pipe?


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

I learned something today.  Stoves down the value of a home where inserts raise the value...at least in my area.  Since we're looking to build in 5-10 years, and this isn't the home I plan to die in, I'm thinking we're going to go the route of an insert.

Believe it or not my wife thought of this one while talking tonight in terms of being able to afford things...

I mentioned that I wanted to buy an insert/stove and do it before the end of the year to take advantage of the tax credit.  She suggested buying the unit now and just keeping it in the basement...then when we could afford to build another fireplace...do it and install whatever we bought.

Only snag I can see is that the fireplace would have to be built around the insert instead of the other way around.  But what I could do is buy the insert to fit the fireplace in the basement.  If, for some reason the fireplace upstairs is just slightly out of spec, we could still use the insert downstairs.

What do yall think?  Has anyone done something similar to that....buy the stove/insert first THEN build a fireplace/hearth around it?

With that tax credit, can we buy two and get a credit on each or is it  just one credit up to $1500??

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 10, 2010)

Sounds like an obsession to me. You may need to see a therapist.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Sounds like an obsession to me. You may need to see a therapist.



That'll be a short trip...

But you're right.  Hence why my first thread has 200 replies in a few days time.  I research and analyze the crap out of anything I buy.  The more expensive, the more I do it.  I'm not cheap.  I just don't like to make expensive mistakes.

So what do you think as far as my buy now build later plan?  How about that tax credit?

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## gibson (Jul 10, 2010)

On your original post, I have my Jotul in our family room, where we spend most of our time.  It heats our family room and kitchen to about 75* and the upstairs bedrooms to the mid to low 60's.  A radiant free standing stove might do better downstairs, but I wouldn't count on an insert, unless you have your main living area down there.


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 10, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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As I understand it, the tax credit is a total of $1,500 per filer, but you should read the post about it at the top of the first page of the Hearth Room forum and check with your tax accountant.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> As I understand it, the tax credit is a total of $1,500 per filer, but you should read the post about it at the top of the first page of the Hearth Room forum and check with your tax accountant.



Seems like the gubmint reeeallly doesn't want to give out more than $1500 per household on this deal.  So if we buy the stove up front and don't get it installed, we can either get a really nice one and take the entire $1500 credit or we can be a nice one and get around $750-$1000 out of the deal.  Either way we'd lose the credit's portion of the installation fees.  

-Emt1581


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 10, 2010)

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Just a suggestion? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.  Getting "only* $750 bucks back on your purchase is nothing to sneeze at.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

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I don't want to turn this political but I'll be damned if I'll call this gov. a "gift horse".  Say that when Bush's tax cuts expire and your taxes go through the roof! Think the gov. will be grateful for all the extra money it's forcing you to pay for the same (SNAFU'd) services?

-Emt1581


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## gyrfalcon (Jul 10, 2010)

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Oh, so glad you don't want to turn this political.  Pffftt.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

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That wasn't political.  We can go there if you want though.  But I took what you said to mean "mind your manners and/or be greatful", to which I guess I should have replied.... Pfffft.

-Emt1581


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## DeePee (Jul 10, 2010)

I can hardly wait until this thread is available on BluRay.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

DeePee said:
			
		

> I can hardly wait until this thread is available on BluRay.



I got the boot leg copy already.   PM me if interested. 

-Emt1581


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## DeePee (Jul 10, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Spoilers? Did you end up with a stove or insert; basement or living room?


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

DeePee said:
			
		

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At this point the stove idea is dead for the living room, the fireplace in the basement is getting measured for an insert, and the insert bought for that fireplace isn't going to be installed but rather kept until such time that it's found NOT to fit in the (future) fireplace to be built in the living room.  Bet you didn't see that ending coming... 

BTW, this thread is just the tip of the iceberg.  I mean it really was helpful in getting me started but now we have to figure out models, finishes, BTU's, etc.  So I'll probably do another month or two of researching tween here, the local stores and online before picking one out.

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 10, 2010)

I agree that we need better than SNAFU, but the reality is that we're not going to get out of the mess we're in by cutting taxes and running everything into the ground. That said, this is the Hearth room. Buy 2 stoves and get the full $. It has been scientifically proven that burning trees saves the planet.   I don't see how a stove could negatively affect resale value by more than the $100 you might have to pay to have it hauled away if you were unable to sell it. Building a fireplace for an insert. . . might as well put the $ into a masonry heater. www.vermontwoodstove.com   If an insert boosts resale, a masonry heater would send it through the roof.


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## begreen (Jul 10, 2010)

Hope you'll be providing free therapy to balance out forum karma.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Hope you'll be providing free therapy to balance out forum karma.



Did I say something earlier in the thread about therapy or did you catch something I wrote last night before the edit?? 

-Emt1581


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## DeePee (Jul 10, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Hope you'll be providing free therapy to balance out forum karma.



Its like the forum knows about that one time we threw a split in the fire and it sizzled.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> I agree that we need better than SNAFU, but the reality is that we're not going to get out of the mess we're in by cutting taxes and running everything into the ground. That said, this is the Hearth room,



Of course tax increases are a necessary evil sometimes, but watch what happens and see if "increase" is the appropriate word you'd use for it.  

As far as getting out of the mess we're in...God only knows.... but it should be one hell of a show either way!!  Pray for the best and prepare for the worst.

-Emt1581


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## daleeper (Jul 10, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> At this point the stove idea is dead for the living room, the fireplace in the basement is getting measured for an insert, and the insert bought for that fireplace isn't going to be installed but rather kept until such time that it's found NOT to fit in the (future) fireplace to be built in the living room.  Bet you didn't see that ending coming...
> 
> BTW, this thread is just the tip of the iceberg.  I mean it really was helpful in getting me started but now we have to figure out models, finishes, BTU's, etc.  So I'll probably do another month or two of researching tween here, the local stores and online before picking one out.
> 
> -Emt1581



I'm confused now.  Are we talking about 2 different inserts, or are you buying an insert to fit the basement fireplace, but not installing it, in the hopes that it will fit the living room future fireplace?

My head hurts, where do I sign up for that therapy?


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

daleeper said:
			
		

> I'm confused now.  Are we talking about 2 different inserts, or are you buying an insert to fit the basement fireplace, but not installing it, in the hopes that it will fit the living room future fireplace?
> 
> *  Yup, that's it in a nutshell.  That way I figure we're covered either way.  My question now is how easily is it for a mason to build a fireplace of a certain size? I mean the size and shape of the chimney is the same on both levels (basement/main level) so I'd think it'd be relatively easy to do.      *
> 
> My head hurts, where do I sign up for that therapy?



Where did this idea of therapy show up in the thread??

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 10, 2010)

Inserts are designed to fit in a wide variety of fireplaces. As long as the cavity is within the range of design, the insert will fit. Download some insert manuals to learn more about this. The idea of building a new fireplace just to move an assumed existing insert is what makes my head hurt. 

Frankly, the idea of building a new fireplace just to fit the insert seems a bit silly when a freestanding stove is likely to do a better job of heating, without needing power. If having a fireplace is paramount, then why not install a modern, high efficiency epa zero-clearance unit? It will cost less and will do a good job.


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## emt1581 (Jul 10, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Inserts are designed to fit in a wide variety of fireplaces. As long as the cavity is within the range of design, the insert will fit. Download some insert manuals to learn more about this. The idea of building a new fireplace just to move an assumed existing insert is what makes my head hurt.
> 
> Frankly, the idea of building a new fireplace just to fit the insert seems a bit silly when a freestanding stove is likely to do a better job of heating, without needing power. If having a fireplace is paramount, then why not install a modern, high efficiency epa zero-clearance unit? It will cost less and will do a good job.



See post 191.

-Emt1581


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## begreen (Jul 10, 2010)

I don't buy that premise as applicable to a well done installation with a quality stove.


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## daleeper (Jul 10, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> daleeper said:
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Not sure where this therapy business came from but somebody needs it (not sure who).  

I just have real difficulty thinking someone with a limited budget and wants to heat a house would even consider installing a brick fireplace, plan to install an insert later, and expect either to heat a house with any efficiency.  In fact, that brick fireplace by itself will most likely have a negative impact on heating the house, and the insert is a compromise.  Either get a high efficiency epa listed zero clearance fireplace that has a look that pleases the wife, or a real epa listed wood stove.  Forget anything about  a brick laid fireplace and an insert in the living room upstairs.


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

daleeper said:
			
		

> I just have real difficulty thinking someone with a limited budget
> 
> *Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  We are limited NOW.  Once our current home sells that will no longer be the case.  However, we want to be able to take advantage of the credit so that means buying in the next few months regardless.*
> 
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Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> I don't buy that premise as applicable to a well done installation with a quality stove.



I think a lot has to do with area as well as individual buyers.  However, when it comes to JUST looks... I would agree that a stove with a large black pipe being seen is less appealing than a semi/flush insert that looks minimally different from a regular fireplace.  

As far as efficiency goes, I think a stove is a far better choice.  I'm going to do more homework and have my realtor do more homework on this though.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## daleeper (Jul 11, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Sorry that I was so blunt with the above statements.  

I did assume that you had a limited budget and did not consider that it was short term while making the real estate transactions, but I am still a practical person, and it pains me to watch someone spend thousands of dollars laying a brick fireplace that will be a net heat loss unit, when there are other options available that look nice, heat well, and could be less expensive to install, and because budget is not a long term issue, the sky is the limit on what you can do there, evidently.

Yes, installing the stove/fireplace in the living room is clearly more efficient than trying to heat from the basement, but only if the unit is efficient.  Ask yourself why inserts were invented, and do a search on heating with a fireplace, and you will find that a common fireplace is not efficient at all, and in fact the fireplace chimney can and usually is a source of heat loss.  Why spend money to install a fireplace that will be a heat loss, when you can install something that will put out heat?


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

daleeper said:
			
		

> Sorry that I was so blunt with the above statements.
> 
> I did assume that you had a limited budget and did not consider that it was short term while making the real estate transactions, but I am still a practical person, and it pains me to watch someone spend thousands of dollars laying a brick fireplace that will be a net heat loss unit, when there are other options available that look nice, heat well, and could be less expensive to install, and because budget is not a long term issue, the sky is the limit on what you can do there, evidently.
> 
> Yes, installing the stove/fireplace in the living room is clearly more efficient than trying to heat from the basement, but only if the unit is efficient.  Ask yourself why inserts were invented, and do a search on heating with a fireplace, and you will find that a common fireplace is not efficient at all, and in fact the fireplace chimney can and usually is a source of heat loss.  Why spend money to install a fireplace that will be a heat loss, when you can install something that will put out heat?



No need to apologize. 


As I said though, I need to do what's most cost effective in terms of resale, not  necessarily long term use.  When we build, I will definitely go with a stove.  

-Emt1581


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## BrotherBart (Jul 11, 2010)

A full masonry fireplace is gonna start at twenty grand. You ain't gonna do it so considering it is just wasted key strokes.


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> A full masonry fireplace is gonna start at twenty grand. You ain't gonna do it so considering it is just wasted key strokes.



How do you know?  

I'll also add that I've spoken to a few people and your numbers seem a bit high.  But this house is an investment in the grand scheme of things.  So long as I'll reap the benefits of something when I go to sell, and I can afford the upgrade, I'll go ahead and do it.

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

www.vermontwoodstove.com/msnyhtrs.htm   If I were going to spend $15-20k assembling stone for a firebox, that's how I'd do it. Fireplace in exterior chimney + random insert = weak.


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> www.vermontwoodstove.com/msnyhtrs.htm   If I were going to spend $15-20k assembling stone for a firebox, that's how I'd do it.



I appreciate the link.  They seem morbid to me, like having an incinerator/crematorium in my living room.  Just my opinion mind you.

Thanks!

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

Well, I think it's clear that you want what you want, regardless of functionality. . .which is fine, but I also think that your "resale" justification is flimsy. I seriously doubt that a fireplace is going to incrdease the resale value by as much as it cost to build.


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Well, I think it's clear that you want what you want, regardless of functionality.



How's that?

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

Everyone has said,"Bad idea," but you keep talking about building a fireplace.


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

> Everyone has said,"Bad idea," but you keep talking about building a fireplace.



Who said bad idea?  I've seen expensive idea.

In terms of you feeling my reasoning is flimsy, what justification do you have to make such a statement?

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Surely, you jest. . .or misread. Why don't you start a thread with a poll and ask if anyone thinks it is a good idea.    





> In terms of you feeling my reasoning is flimsy, what justification do you have to make such a statement?-Emt1581


What is your reasoning, "A realtor said?" Let's see some numbers. It's your thesis to prove, not mine to disprove.


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

Den said:
			
		

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BTW, my reply is partially a rebuttal to your post(s) but also I'm genuinely curious.  Why would building a fireplace be a bad idea?

-Emt1581


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

Go back and read your thread.  You will see many words indicating poor performance and "heat loss."  Brick is not a good insulator. If your chimney were in the middle of your house, it wouldn't matter much, but your chimney is outside of your house. You want to spend $$$ to bust open your wall and lay more brick so you can put a heater outside of your house and then try to get as much heat as possible back into the house with a blower.


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## emt1581 (Jul 11, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Den said:
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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

It would vary some from house to house, but our big stone hearth attached to an external brick chimney on the north side of the house _is_ always cooler than the room temp.  All the masonry is one big heat sink with the majority of its surface area exposed to the prevailing winds. That's why I finally decided to pull the insert and "hearth mount" a stove out in front of the fireplace. The insert is an attempt to solve the problem of the fireplace. People buy inserts because they already have fireplaces, not the other way around. Building a fireplace into an exterior chimney would be building a problem.


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

The other problem with a fireplace is that it leaks air around the damper.  There are many "chimney balloon" sealing products on the market that address this problem. This would not be an issue with an insert + liner properly installed, but I think some of today's energy-conscious buyers are aware of the problems with a fireplace, and might see it as a turn-off.  Even if we accept that most buyers would find a fireplace appealing, there are no numbers to indicate that you would get your $ back out of a fireplace  construction project, with or without an insert. John Q. public doesn't heat with wood, and would probably place this very low on his/her list of requirements.  IMO, not very many buyers would pay an extra $10-15k to get the house with the fireplace. Even if you found a wood-burning buyer who liked your setup, how much extra do you think they'd pay for your house when they could buy the house down the street and install the stove of their choice for, say, $4k.


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

Maybe you should post a "How much extra would you pay for a house with a fireplace?" poll.    p.s. Of course, I have exaggerated the case against inserts. There are plenty of people here who successfully heat their homes with inserts, but I'll bet that all of them were installed into pre-existing fireplaces, and many of them were installed with insulation material behind the insert to help prevent heat loss to the masonry.  I'm not saying that inserts don't work at all, just that they don't work as well, and to spend extra $$ for a more complex install that doesn't work as well is wrong-headed.


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

p.p.s. Your house already has 1 fireplace, so I don't see a 2nd one adding any "Santa Claus appeal". . .just in case that's what your realtor is talking about.


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## daleeper (Jul 11, 2010)

Well, I guess I never saw anything in the first post about resale or investment, we built our home to live in, so am not experienced in this aspect.  I can't believe that a brick fireplace would be a good investment an any way shape or form, just too expensive, and way to many ways to design it that may not appeal to the potential buyer.  Just how much did they quote you for a brick fireplace?  I think you said a few thousand in the first post, but by the time they get done, I'd bet it will be a lot closer to 10 thousand than you are thinking.

If resale and eye-appeal is more important than heating this house efficiently with wood, and you are going to have to buy your wood, call that gas man back, install the gas furnace and fireplaces and save yourself a lot of work, and you will be saving money over heating with the radiant electric heat.  I would compare the cost of the fireplace verses the cost of installing the gas furnace and duct work for investment.  Electric radiant heat is comfortable, until you get the bill.  A good gas furnace if your gas supply is competitive will lower your heating bill significantly, unless your electric rates are real cheap. 

Your first post seemed to be a question about how best to heat your new home efficiently with wood, and I think we gave you some help with that.  You are now saying that investment and resale is more important, and that your wife has already decided what you are going to do.  One would think that they would be the same, but the real estate market is fickle, and everyone has different wants/desires.  I would still install a nice looking hearth and stove upstairs.  I do not see it hurting resale, let the new owners install the fireplace.


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 11, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

> Of course, an insert is a compromise.  A lot of the heat goes up the chimney, it's dependant on a blower...which uses electricity which doesn't work in a power outage and costs additional money each month.   But it's far better than a traditional fireplace on it's own.
> 
> But please site any source or post number where it was said that building a fireplace for an insert was a bad idea.
> 
> ...


[/quote]

Every wood burning solution is a compromise.  I like the brick fireplace/insert at our family's camp.  Nice feel, trimmed out with pine off the property, etc.  However, after stuffing that thing every few hours for a few days, I am ready to go home to the big free standing stove.


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

emt1581 said:
			
		

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Here in the 21st century, high-temp paint is available in just about any color you would like. www.forrestpaint.com  Some mfrs will gladly paint the stove and pipe the color of your choice. Some won't, and you'd have to DIY (See "New BKK is purty" thread.) Then there's good ol' stainless steel, and I've also seen a snazzy install with something that looked like polished brass pipe. The (repeated) point is that a stove & pipe in your living room can be as pretty as you want. It might not look "built-in," but it can look as good anything else in the room.


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## oldspark (Jul 11, 2010)

You guys are messed up,  a big stove with a big black pipe coming out of it is a beautiful thing!


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 11, 2010)

I couldn't agree more oldspark.


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## ddddddden (Jul 11, 2010)

I was so busy doing your homework for you while you speculate about resale, I forgot to mention that having no pipe visible is also an option.  As you can see, some folks think black is beautiful. You or the Mrs. don't like black? Take a look at the lovely ivory Jotul on the hearth.com homepage, which you must have seen many times by now. Look closer.  _Do you see a pipe?_


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## fossil (Jul 11, 2010)

Well, after 11 pages, this thread seems to have devolved into a rather directionless back-and-forth opinion thing, so I'm gonna just go ahead and close it down.  Perhaps a freshly started thread on a focused aspect of the situation is in order, and would attract a more diverse population of the members here.  Rick


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