# Harmon HydroFlex 60 Pellet Boiler?



## velvetfoot

Does anybody out there have any experience with this model?
I'm thinking, it wouldn't cost that much to install and might do the job for me since I'll still have a wood insert, and oil for backup in my 2000 ft2 colonial house.
Thanks.


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## huffdawg

read this thread 


https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/84645/P0/


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## velvetfoot

Thanks.  Seems like the latest model burn pot and pressure ignition (whatever that is) solves the problem.
Not clear if it applies to the Hydroflex60 though.

Post 29 on this thread has a Harmon dealer's opinion:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/68030/P22/
"my local harman dealer told me he would rather not sell me a hydroflex.  Told me they had to be cleaned daily due to heat exchange design.  Told me he wouldnt promote it untill they change the design and that I would be much happier with the pb105.(which is too big and dont want)  "

Daily cleaning?  I know pellet stoves require maintenance, but that's seems a lot to me.  Maybe I'm spoiled with my low-tech wood insert.
It doesn't seem the gassifiers require that much maintenance.


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## EcoHeat

Daily cleaning is obviously not going to work for many people.  Makes me curious about the design of it.  

If a pellet boiler is allowed to smoulder, it's going to run dirty.  With any solid fuel boiler, even with automatic ignition, there's a short time at the beginning and end of combustion cycles where the fire's not hot, and so there's always going to be a little soot that needs to be brushed out (or in the case of automatic cleaning boilers, scraped off).  If a pellet boiler has automatic ignition and modulating power, it will have longer run times and fewer on-off cycles. Therefore it will run cleaner.  

In Europe, and here in North America, those boilers without automatic cleaning are manually brushed clean once a week, which is a much more reasonable frequency, and which can be timed with loading pellets for those who don't get bulk deliveries (as long as the pellet storage bin has the capacity to hold a week's worth of pellets).


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## velvetfoot

I checked one out at the dealer today.  It seems a sweet little unit.  The burnpot doesn't appear to be stainless.


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## VT_Bubba

Hello All,

I'm a newbie to this forum and looking to get some discussion going on the Harman Hydroflex 60 boiler. I purchased my Hydroflex 60 last April (2011) and installed it myself over the summer. We''ve been burning it all this winter and we love it !  So far, no problems.  I have several friends with PB105's, and some folks are having problems (bad control boards, probes, burn pots, etc...). However, my Hydroflex 60 is making me proud.

My local dealer tried to discourage the Hydroflex 60, because of our severe VT winters and heating loads.  However, I had space restrictions and really could not accomodate the physical size of the PB105.  In the end, the Hydroflex 60 seems to be meeting our needs, although I do have smart controls and still augment my heat with a woodstove in the basement (still have wood to be burned from clearing the land). 

My home heating system (self designed and installed):
- Biasi B10-4 Oil fired, with 0.5gal/hr nozzel (Direct Vented with outside air in)
- Circulator per zone, with 40gal Indirect Hot Water Tank and Priority Control on the Hot Water.
- 80gal Solar Hot Water System, with 2 Stibel-Eltron Flat Plate Collectors on my roof
- 1st floor 60ft baseboard
- 2nd floor 40ft baseboard
- Basement Man Cave (Hearthstone Mansfield Wood Stove) 

I declare several Boiler Design Biases :
1) Always Pump Away (Air Seperation should always be on the low preasure side of the pump)
2) I like Outside Air In and have it installed on my Oil Boiler, Pellet Boier and Woodstove ! (It's always Good and never bad)
3) I like Indirect Hot Water Tanks

I hope folks will share their Hydroflex 60 issues/experiences, and I will try to share my knowledge with those who are interested.

VT_Bubba
- Harman Hydroflex 60
- Hearthstone Mansfield Soapstone Woodstove
- 16 Acres with 1/4 mile drive to my bunker on top of the hill
- B2710 Kubota Tractor for the Bubba Work
- 2003 Toyota Tundra with 7,000lb trailer (Pellet Hauler)
- Lot's of guns to keep the Crazy's out .. ;-)


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## velvetfoot

This is great!
How do you control the two boilers?  It seems to me that if you still want to keep the outdoor reset on both boilers (I already have it on my existing oil boiler), and not mess with the aquastat settings and/or place it in manual mode, you have to have separate thermostats for each zone.  That still leaves the question of domestic hot water.  What did you mean when you said you had "smart controls"?  I've seen a Tekmar 261 that can control two boilers but have to read more on it, plus it's 400 bucks.
Thanks for any help.

PS:  Sorry for the bad manners; welcome to the Forums!

edit:  Upon further reading, the 261 doesn't do dhw.  I'd need something like the 374, only 900 bucks, lol.


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## VT_Bubba

Good Morning Velvetfoot,

This could be a long discussion... Every Installation is different, depending on system types, design preferences, and house use model. There are several ways to hook-up multiple boilers.  I am a self declared efficiency and automation freak, and tend to over think, over engineer, over optimize, and over design everything I do, because I'm an Engineer and can't help myself...

It sounds like we have similar primary heating systems.  I am not familiar with the Tekmar 261 dual controller , but can say with confidence you probably don't need it ! 

Let me try to describe my two systems. Basically, the two boilers work as two independent  systems. The Oil Boiler Controls remains almost untouched (can use outside reset, or not).  The Harman Pellet boilers have there own controls and when turned-on, will work to maintain pellet-boiler temperature (like 160-180 degrees).  I have two simple add-on controls to integrate the two boilers :
1) Added 1 Circulator Aquastat  on the Pellet Boiler (If  Pellet Boiler < 140F and the House control wants heat, then turn-on the pellet circulator to provide the hot water to the manifold).
2) Added 1 Boiler Aquastat on the Pellet Boiler to Hold-Off the Oil Boiler start, if the pellet boiler is hot  (If Pellet Boiler < 135F then do not allow the house control to get to the Oil Boiler).

This provides for 100% Automatic control and Oil Back-up, without ever throwing a switch or a valve !  Basically, the oil boiler will never fire if the pellet boiler stays hot and the Pellet Boiler is NOT wasting any heat or electricity running the pump, if the house or hot water does not need heat.  This is simple, cheap, efficient automation, and keeps the two boiler systems almost completely independent and unmolested.  

My oil boiler system uses a standard Taco SR504-EXP controller, with priority control on the Hot-Water, so if the Indirect Hot Water Tank wants heat, all heating zones are shut-off and 100% of the boiler goes to the hot water tank. This gives me almost endless hot water on demand. 

BTW:  This may be hard to beleive, but my 40 gal Hot Water Tank plumbed with 1" pipe requires more BTU's than the 100ft of 3/4" baseboard heat !   I don't think a Hydroflex 60 can service both Hot Water and Baseboard heat at the same time. Just not enough BTU's in the hydroflex... I think priority control on the hot-water is a requirement if you want to make hot-water and heat the house too.

I hope that helps you and others !

VT_Bubba


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## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

BTW: I'm also using the Hydroflex Autostart feature and NOT Manual Mode.  My Hydroflex 60 fires multiple times a day, whenever the Pellet Boiler falls below the Min Temp setting. Autostart seems to work great.  I did hook-up my 60ft Baseboard loop as a "Safety Zone", so if the boiler gets to hot or I decide to run in "Manual Mode" my largest heating loop will turn-on as needed to bleed off any excess heat in the pellet boiler.

VT_Bubba
(Love fool proof automation that works !)


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## velvetfoot

Thanks VT_Bubba!  I too am a engineer, but by training only at this point.  But of course I have more questions!

In my case, since we have a wood insert on the first floor, we allow the second floor to get pretty cool during the day.  Then around 6:00 PM or so, it's turned on for the rest of the evening, until it gets shuts down around 11:00 PM or so.  The point being, the boiler water can get pretty cool:  cool enough so that in your scheme, both aquastats would be below their respective turn on setpoints.  So then, both boilers would kick on, with oil dropping out after the pellet boiler came up to temp, from an electric ignition cold start.  Is that indeed what would happen with your scheme?  I guess this would be true for the dhw as well?  I'm concerned about short cycling the oil boiler.

I guess, in short, is your unit operating as the base heat supply for the whole house, and how much does your oil boiler run now?  

I'd be interested in how your unit is plumbed.  I was thinking of series and using the existing zone pumps, which are the only pumps in the system.  I think I could get the unit close to the existing boiler, but might have to relocate the fuel oil tank.  I initially though it'd be easy to locate, but with clearances to windows and the like, it might not be that easy.

Again, thanks for any help.


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## Blevesque

Velvet I am assuming here but I would assume he has his boiler wired for cold start, therefore switch relay keeps the boilers from firing until there is a call for heat be it the baseboard/radiant zone or DHW. So the boilers will drop below low temp and not start up unless the switch relay calls it/them on. Hope that helps, Brian


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## velvetfoot

Yes, I am interested if both boilers fire on cold start.


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## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

Let me first say, that I also use Programmable Thermostats and have the same basic house use model (Efficiency Freak) !  No problem.  Please read my last post again very carefully...

The key point that you are missing is the Harman Pellet Boilers have there own controls and will ALWAYS maintain temperature when they are powered on !  Your Oil Boiler may be a cold start boiler, but your Harmen Pellet Boiler will always be running holding temperature to at least the Min Temp setting.  In Automode, if the Pellet boiler ever hits Max Temp Setting then the burner is slowly shutdown and goes off, but the boiler is still at temperature (160-180) !  If the Pellet Temperature ever goes below the Min Temp Setting (160F), then the pellet boiler will "Autostart" and run until the Max Setting is reached, before it shuts down again .  Basically the Harman controls never know if you are pulling heat from the boiler (with your circulator), or it just drifted below the min setting.  In either case, the pellet boiler will autostart and keep the Pellet Temp between the Min and Max settings.

The other key point is, the pellet boiler never really knows if you are pulling heat with the Circulator.  The house needing heat turns on the Pellet Circulator !  The house controls do NOT connect to the Pellet Controls, just kicks on the pellet circulator.

With my current control settings, my oil boiler NEVER starts ! Except, if the pellet is turned-off, or out of pellets, which means it's temp is below 135F. It's awesome.  However, in the early fall/late spring the pellet boiler will cycle on/off just to keep the pellet boiler at temperature, even when there is no call for heat.

Plumbing is a whole new lesson.  Get your head around the multi-boiler on/off controls, then we can talk plumbing.

VT_Bubba


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## velvetfoot

VT_Bubba, 

This is a revelation!  I totally didn't realize this was the way it worked.  I thought it went totally cold.  I should have read the manual better, because I think it's in there.  Have you have much of a problem in the shoulder season with excess heat? Now that I think of it, I'm not sure why you would since the circulators would turn on since there's no demand for heat, and the unit can cycle on and off to maintain 160*F or whatever the min temp is.  

Have you used it for DHW in the summer?

The aquastats you added:  each unit already has one, but you added a couple.  It would be nice to have separate and consistent readings rather than fiddling with a dial, say, like on my oil boiler.   Do these aquastats have external sensors that are attached to pipes; make/model?  I'm totally unfamiliar with these.

I'm psyched about this potential project, with your positive experience.

VelvetFoot


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## VT_Bubba

Ya baby, I got the light turned-on for you now !   BTW - Don't feel bad,  I had the same misconception when I started looking at this stuff 5yrs ago and know body could really explain it to me.  I had to totally change my system design point and controls, once this became obvious to me.   The Harman manuals do NOT really explain the various types of multi-boiler operation.

I want to caution you, the controls I described for my Hydroflex 60 are somewhat unique to my multi-boiler design point.  Several of my PB105 system designs always circulate the pellet water to the oil boiler to keep the internal DHW coil hot and keep the Oil-Boiler boiler from starting because it is always hot (this is a totally different multi-boiler design point).  Given that you have a cold start boiler with a Indirect DHW Tank, I'm trying to coach you towards a very efficient system design that will use significantly less pellets.  BTW: I have yet to see any multi-boiler system installed that is as simple, efficient, and as fully automatic as my Hydroflex 60 hook-up in my house.  Eventually, we will talk multi-boiler plumbing, once we fully resolve your control questions. 

Comments on DHW :
- I have Solar Hot Water and use almost no energy over the spring, summer, fall months.  Only a little energy on cloudy days, and 1-2 times a day the oil boiler will fire to keep the water hot in my primary 40gal tank, when we are not using hot water (My tank loss is about 1F/hr).  If we use Hot Water during the day, the Solar Tank keeps my primary tank loaded with hot water and the oil never fires, but will fire if needed. BTW- Pellet Boilers work great in conjunction with Solar Hot Water, because when I'm not generating much Solar (winter), I'm at least using pellet.  Solar DHW design is a whole new topic that I like too...
- As you figured out, I have NO problems with excess heat in the shoulder months because of the Harman Autostart Operation (Manual Mode would be a problem).  Isn't that awesome !  However, I hate to keep the Pellet Boiler HOT when we are gone all day and do not need heat or hot water.  I'm cheap like that.  So, in the shoulder months, I wake-up and fire the Pellet Boiler, make coffee, turn-on the heat, and take my shower. When I'm done, my wife showers. When we are done showering and the DHW has fully recovered for the day and the house is at temp, I shut the Pellet Boiler off for the day.  Small hassle factor, but very efficient for those few transition weeks.

Comments on Aquastats :
- The Hydroflex Controls and Aquastats (which are really thermocouples or thermisters) are all self-contained in the boiler (No hook-up required).
- The two additional Control Auquastats that I describe above are standard Boiler system components and can be placed in a well, or strapped on the pipe :
1) Pellet Circulator Aquastat  (Honeywell L4006B - set to 140F) can be put in the Hydroflex using one of the available 3/4" holes using an aquastat well.
2) Oil Boiler Hold-Off Aquastat (Honeywell L4006A - set to 135F) can be "Strapped-On" the Output pipe of the Pellet Boiler (Only 1 Avail Well on the Hydroflex)

I hope that helps !

VT_Bubba


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## katman

VT-Bubba-
Your post is just in time for me.  I'm installing a PB-105 in my barn, about 100 feet from the house.  Have everything plumbed, wires to the PB 105 but I'm stumped on the controls.  I was going to put the pellet boiler in series with my oil boiler, which has three zones with taco vales and one circulator.  My plumber installed a slightly different arrangement which he says will not flow heated water from the pellet boiler to the oil boiler.  We did install a circulator at the pellet boiler, but powering that circulator and sending the thermostate demand to the pellet boiler is were I am searching for a solution.  I'll read over your stuff again but it sounds like you have what I need.  Thanks for the insight!  Regarding the well on your Harman, I have only one on my PB-105.  Doesn't the Harman sensor probe need to be there?  Also, curious to know what kind of programable thermostats you are using.


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## velvetfoot

And I think I might be ready for the plumbing schooling, lol.

katman, I'd be interested in how your pellet boiler ties in to your oil boiler, while bw're waiting for VT_Bubba to return...


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## VT_Bubba

Hello Katman,

I'm using cheap Honeywell Programmable Thermostats. Sorry, I don't know the model# off the top of my head.  They are 5day-2day scheduled.  I can't say I have strong bias on any Prog T-Sat's, or love the Honeywells that I have, they are what they are and seem to do the job of matching our life-style schedule.

Yes, the PB105 only has 1 Available aquastat well, located on top of the boiler, and that well MUST be used for the Harman Temperature probe.  This means that any additional control aquatats you might add  to your system are best "Strapped-On" to the boiler output pipe. This is typical for a PB105 Boiler install.  

The problem with discussing controls details and plumbing is, the right controls depend on many issues :
- Multi-Boiler Plumbing design
- Existing Boiler system Design and Controls 
- Expected level of automation,  circulators -switches-valves, etc (Manual vs Auto).

You may have limited options, based on your existing boiler design (Zone Valves with 1 Circulator). Hooking the two boilers together in series is usually the easiest solution.  Basically, NO controls or extra circulators required.  Plug in the PB105 and let it maintain it's 160-180 temp with the factory on-board controls, and let the house circulate the water through both boilers using your existing circulator.  The 100ft may be an issue and require an extra helper circulator ?

But, you don't talk about your DHW situation, so it's hard to know what all of the implications are for this design..  What's your DHW system like ? 

I personally Do NOT like Series installs, because they are very inefficient !  When you run your Oil-Boiler, you must also heat the pellet boiler, and when you run your pellet boiler your also heating your Oil-Boiler.  Yes, you can add manual valves to bypass the off boiler, but that gets to be a hack too !  I just dislike wasting energy and I hate manual intervention if I can avoid it by design.

I personally like Parallel System designs.  However, most people hook them up with manual gate valves so that only 1 Boiler is driving the Boiler Zone Header at a time. This usually requires manual boiler switch over using gate valves.  I struggled with these trade-offs myself and ended up with my current Parallel Design point, but I have a Circulator per zone, Indirect Hot-Water Tank (Not a Tankless-Coil), and wanted a system with no manual switch over and had NO LOSS when using 1 boiler, or the other. To accomplish this, I use  Primary and Secondary Loops with 2 Swing Check Valves and 1 Weighted Check-Valve (IE: 2-Way Flow Control Valve).  This puts the Hot Water right on the Header at the consuming zones, no matter which boiler is supplying the hot water, and there is always ZERO flow through the unused boiler, This results in a Fully Automatic switch-over (I do have gate valves for maintenance, but NO Manual Valves are needed for boiler switch over -  just Turn-OFF the Pellet and the Oil is in the loop !) and has No Heat Loss in the unused boiler !

VT_Bubba


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## velvetfoot

Of course, at this point, I can't say I understand your piping scheme.  My current scheme, which I've tried to link to a picture below, is a Burnham V83 oil boiler, .75 gph nozzle, 3 zones including one indirect dhw tank, one circulator per zone pumping toward the boiler return.  It's looking like without moving the oil tank, I'd have to locate the pellet boiler to the right of the oil tank.

The oil supply and return pipes off the boiler are 1.5" whereas the Hydroflex60 is .75".  Wouldn't a series connection also cause some potential flow restriction?

Reading the Burnham boiler manual, it seems there are a couple of supply and return connections that might be used in some (parallel?) arrangement.


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## katman

VT-Bubba-
I deliberated series vs. paralel for some time and was tending toward series for ease of operation and simple install.  My plumber's arrangement has me a bit puzzled.  He says the oil boiler will be bypassed; I can't see how he is doing it without another gate but he's the expert.  It will require manual switching, which I can deal with for now but ultimately I'll have to make some changes.  I have options now for DHW.  The oil boiler has a coil so during the cold months when I  was burning oil I would let the oil boiler heat the hot water and send it to an electric water heater, which basically served as a storage tank.  With only two users, storing the hot water worked.  During the warm months the oil system was shut down and the power to the electric water heater was turned on. I'll probably use electric for the water heater all year once the pellet boiler is hooked up. I also have heat pumps for the house, which are used for summer cooling and heating until the cold weather sets in.  Normally, the switch to oil isn't until December and I go back to heat pumps in March.  This year I'm switching back and forth.  I'm looking at adding some solar capabilities but I am not far along.  As I understand, under current law 20 percent of the power used in Maryland must be from renewable sources by 2015.  State grants are available for installing residential systems.  I have some nice rooftop space so I'm looking at my options for using it.  I was considering your boiler but my local Harman dealer didn't know a thing about any of the boiler or furnace products.  I picked up the pb 105 from a dealer in Pa. who had it inventory.  I think it will be fine for my needs but I'm looking forward to hearing how your units works out for you.


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## katman

Velvetfoot-

I haven't had a chance to give the pipes a really good look since my plumber hooked everything up Monday afternoon.  That's when I saw the new circulator and asked his assistant how it was going to be controlled. I don't think I'll be home long enough to check it out until this weekend or next week if I have to work the weekend.  However, I'll post as soon as I can look things over and see it in operation.


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## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

Now that your more comfortable with some of the control issues, it's time to discuss multi-boiler plumbing.  As a starting point, please read my previous post to Katman, as I try to discuss some of the pros/cons of the various multi-boiler designs and the benefits of my proposed design point for your Hydroflex solution (Which will be just like my installation).  Basically, we want Hot Water right at the consuming zone without ever losing any of the heat in the unused boiler.

Yes, In your case the 3/4" Hydroflex connections make a series design very undesirable for flow reasons ! 

I have some important comments on the Hydroflex 3/4" connections :
1) As I learned the hardway, part of the Multi-Boiler problem is meeting and matching flow rates for all of the various flow situations (Oil vs Pellet operation, with 1 zone running, 2 zones running, DHW going etc...).  
- Can you confirm that you can setup "Priority" for your DHW zone ?  (I think this is a requirement for Hydroflex because of the limited BTU capability)
- Can you tell me what circulators you are using (Taco 007 ?) ?
- What Diameter pipe for the Heating Zones (3/4") ?
- What Diameter pipe for the DHW Zone (1") ?
2) For the Hydroflex, I highly recommend you use 1" piping to maximize flow on your Pellet Primary Loop !   Use 3/4" to 1" fittings right at the Hydroflex Boiler connections and then plumb your new pellet loop (with Air-Scoop, Expansion Tank, etc...) using 1" pipe to your 1-1/2" manifolds.  This will allow maximum flow and BTU extraction from the Hydroflex Boiler and the 1" pipe can handle Qty=2Zones of  3/4" pipes worth of water volume !   Use 1-1/2" piping for any changes on your existing 1-1/2" Header pipes !  Flow rates are important !   

In general, the Tarm Wood boiler plumbing schematics are the best that I have found anywhere. These Tarm guy's really know how to plumb multi-boilers and have my respect !   Based on the installs I have seen, most master plumbers could use a lesson from these Tarm guy's.  I hope I don't get in trouble for posting this link, but please reference this Tarm document :
==> http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf

You will be using the basic design of section 2.4 Plumbing Example - Solo2 (Two Boiler Direct Design - No Thermal Storage), except the Wood Boiler is your pellet boiler, and you don't need some of the mixing connections shown for the wood boiler. Please look at this drawing and read my post to Katman.  Basically, your going to :
1) Add 1 (1-1/2") swing check valve to your Oil Boiler Supply pipe, before your new Pellet Connection-T, then feed the pipe to your Zone Loads.
2) Add 1 (1-1/2") swing check valve at the capped End of your Supply manifold and connect the other side of the swing check to the capped-end of the Return Header.  This creates the "Primary Loop" and allows any non-used flow to continue back to the boilers.
3) Add the 2nd Pellet Connection-T on the other end of the return header pipe, after all returns have come into the header and right before the Oil-Boiler. 
4) Hookup the pellet loop to the two connection-T's using 1" pipe  :
Top of Pellet Boiler ==> Air-ScoopExpantion Tank ==> Pellet circulatorlanges ==> to Header Supply Connection-T
Bottom of Pellet Boiler ==> 1" Weighted Swing-Check (2-Way Flo Check) ==> Shut-Off Bleeder valve ==> to Header RETURN Connection-T

Look at the Tarm drawing, think about the flows (Pellet vs Oil), and let me know if you have any questions.  Hopefully, you can see the benefits of this design point.

There are a few more small details to discuss, but this should get you 95% home.

VT_Bubba


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## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

Looking at your recent boiler room porno... lol... It looks like your zone circulators are located on the boiler return side and not on the Boiler Supply side as the Tarm schematics show, and I had speculated in my last post to you.   If I'm seeing your oil boiler correctly (circulators on the return side),  we should make a few small changes to my plumbing suggestions, as follows :

4) Hook-up the pelllet loop to the connection-T's using 1" pipe :
- Top of Pellet Boiler ==> Air-ScoopExpansion Tank ==> 1" Weighted Check Valve ==> Shut-off/bleeder valves ==> to Supply Header Connection-T.
- Bottom of Pellet Boiler ==> Pellet Circulatorlanges  ==> to Return Header Connection-T 

Basically, I'm recommending that you keep the Pellet Boiler Circ and Oil Boiler zone circ(s) plumbed the same way (Air-Separation on the Pellet Hot side, but Circulator(s) on the return side.

Based on your answer to my DHW zone pipe size question (3/4" or 1" ?) :
- If 3/4" pipe on DWH Zone, then NO other modifications need. (Pellet flow should exceed DHW zone flow).
- If 1" pipe on DWH Zone, the you should probably add one 1" Weighted Check Valve" on the DHW zone loop, just to keep the 1" pipe flows of the DHW Loop equal in Resistance to the 1" Pellet loop.  Without this extra "2-Way Flow Check" on the DHW loop, you will probably get some parasitic flow through your oil-boiler when you run the DHW zone using your pellet boiler (Pellet Circ also running).  Basically, we want to match the resistance to flow on both of the 1" pipe loops.   If you have a Taco-007 circulator on the 1" DHW zone, then you should use a Taco-007 Circulator as your Pellet Circulator, or consider using a Taco-00R which has the same flanges, usually about $3 more, has a little more horsepower (1/20hp vs 1/25hp), and has 3-speeds which may help you balance flows. The Taco-007 flow is very close to speed2 on the Taco-00R,  but the Taco-00R does use a little more electricity on speed2 than a 007).  

I know this may sound funny to you, but think about the pipe sizes and the resistance to flow. 

VT_Bubba


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## velvetfoot

VG_Bubba,

1) 
-Yes the control unit does priority.  I had to rig up a relay to make the reset unit work (it has no built in dhw), so that now the Argo unit goes into priority mode on a dhw call, drops the heat zones, but the boiler temp goes to the max of the boiler aquastat as oppiosed to the relay curve.
-The circ pumps are Tacos, but I don't know the make; will supply later.
-Diameter for all zones is 3/4"

2-4)
I don't understand all this...yet.  Will continue study and undoubtedly ask more questions.

On the goal of keeping the non-running boiler "out of the loop", so to speak:  would there be advantaqes to keeping a boiler that's not running warm, at least once in a while?  I'm thinking, maybe condensation/rust?  Have you had any problem?  I can see that you'd be heating an additional 13 gallons of water in either boiler (my Burnham has the same water capacity), and it'd be a matter of how much heat escapes the boilers, which are insulated, and the one in use already is incurring this heat flow, which is in the envelope of the house (useful in winter).  I can see there being stack losses, but I plan on putting an automatic oil vent damper in the oil boiler ( http://www.fieldcontrols.com/ovd.php ). 

edit:  Now that I read that Field Controls brochure again, I better make sure it works well in any combo arrangement.


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## ewdudley

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> On the goal of keeping the non-running boiler "out of the loop", so to speak:  would there be advantages to keeping a boiler that's not running warm, at least once in a while?  I'm thinking, maybe condensation/rust?



I figure it sure can't hurt and costs next to nothing.  

It's a bit of a kludge, but I put an old salvage bimetalic type room thermostat next to my oil boiler supply line, wrapped with insulation, and set it for 80 degF.  It's wired in parallel to energize the oil boiler secondary loop pump and keep the oil boiler well above damp cellar dew point.

--ewd


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## maple1

ewdudley said:
			
		

> velvetfoot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the goal of keeping the non-running boiler "out of the loop", so to speak:  would there be advantages to keeping a boiler that's not running warm, at least once in a while?  I'm thinking, maybe condensation/rust?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I figure it sure can't hurt and costs next to nothing.
> 
> It's a bit of a kludge, but I put an old salvage bimetalic type room thermostat next to my oil boiler supply line, wrapped with insulation, and set it for 80 degF.  It's wired in parallel to energize the oil boiler secondary loop pump and keep the oil boiler well above damp cellar dew point.
> 
> --ewd
Click to expand...


What about a 'modern' cold start oil boiler? They should be designed to be cold most, or at least a lot, of the time?


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## velvetfoot

I have a cold start oil boiler, but it heats up periodically for dhw, throughout the year.


----------



## VT_Bubba

Good  Morning Velvetfoot,

I also debated the whole concept of using the 2nd boiler as "Extra Mass" in the system.  In many ways the heat is not really lost, it's still in the house.  In the end, there are two paths to efficiency,  Low Mass solutions and Hi Mass solutions, and both have their merits.  My Biasi only has 4.5gal of water and System2000 only has like 2.5gal of water, but oil boilers have very fast recovery time.  The problem you will have is the slow recovery time on the Hydroflex (Boiler is in shut-down, sitting at 161F and 2 cold heat zones turn-on...  Crash.... goes your temp... and now you have to fire the boiler and heat the 2 zones and bring that 2nd boiler up to temp too !). Trust me, the Hydroflex just does not have the BTU balls to lift that load. 

If you want to go that way, then plan on circulating through the 2nd boiler all the time to keep that extra mass at temperature. This would be typical for a boiler with tankless DHW and works great. This is a completely valid approach and my be the better solution for some installations. However, putting the Heat right were you want it ("On the header"), will give you a significantly more efficient solution. I only recommended this approach because you have all of the prerequisites to do the low-mass solution. This really pay's off in the shoulder months and if you think you want to make DHW in the summer (Do you want all of that heat in your basement over the summer ?).

In the end, you have some design choices to make. These are never clear-cut and you just have to pick a design point and go.  The good news is, your existing boiler system lets you do this anyway you want.  My proposed solution does require a little more plumbing, but you can expect about 10-15% pellet savings per year and you will use less electricity on the pump too.

VT_Bubba


----------



## velvetfoot

VT_Bubba, 

I'm still ruminating, but you used additional an expansion tank and air scoop?


----------



## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

Yes, I'm suggesting an additional Air Scoop, Expansion Tank, and HyVent on the pellet boiler. This is NOT a hard requirement, but is just good practice, and fairly cheap too.  You can also up size the expansion tank on your oil boiler (Go to a T60 Tank).  In the end, you really should calculate the total water volume in your system(s) and size your expansion tank(s) appropriately.   I have done the calculations a few times and can tell you right now that with the additional water volume from the pellet boiler you will be on the hairy edge with one T30 Expansion tank at high temperatures.  Adding the T30 expansion tank and air scoop on the pellet boiler is the easy way to ensure that you will never have problems.  Remember, I always design defensively.... Don't cheap out !

VT_Bubba


----------



## velvetfoot

The manifolds are actually 1.25" and the pumps are Taco 7.


----------



## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

All good... The 1.25" manifolds make perfect sense for your installation (BTW: That's what I used too).  Per my previous post,  you should double check the pipe size on your DHW zone loop (3/4" or 1"), and follow my instructions as appropriate (3/4" = No action required,  1" = Suggest adding "Flo-Control Valve" on DHW zone loop).  

Either buy a new Taco-007 as your pellet circulator, or if it was me I would buy a Taco-00R and put it on my DHW loop and run it on speed-1 (save electricity), and then move the old DHW zone Taco-007 pump to your pellet loop (No - I would buy 2 and keep one at the house as the spare - Remember ==> Eng and can't help myself....).  Either way,  it should work fine with the 1" pipe on the pellet loop and a Taco-007 pump as the circulator.

VT_Bubba


----------



## velvetfoot

The dealer was out this morning to look at my setup.  My general feeling at this point is that since these units are sold by traditional fireplace/stove/insert places, they might not have extensive experience in this kind of install.  

I'll try to sketch a flow diagram (with my limited skills) after I digest the info more and post it at some point.


----------



## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

Your are 100% correct !

One of the reasons I didn't buy a Harman Pellet Boiler 5yrs ago was the two local Stove/Fireplace shops that carried Harman :
1) Knew nothing about Boilers and would only sell it to you and point you to a plumber.
2) Couldn't even have an intelligent discussion with them on the details of the boilers.
3) Have much higher margins in there business and priced the Harman Boilers at full retail (like they do the pellet stoves).

Last year I found a semi-local (50 miles away) Heating/Fuel company that started carrying Harman products and could actually talk intelligently on the details of these boilers. They were also willing to price their products to compete in the Heating Business.  I'm somewhat reluctant to put these prices on this form, but I negotiated $4,100 for my Hydroflex 60 and $5,400 for the two PB105's they had in stock,  last April at the start of the "off-season" and before the price increase (that included the $100 Off Coupon from Harman), and that price also included free delivery of the units right into our basements !  I'm very fortunate to have this local Fuel Company Harman Dealer that rocks !   I have sent them 5 other customers that ALL purchased Harman Products from them (I try to be a very loyal customer for businesses that treat me right !).

My message to the forum is, try to find a Heating / Fuel company that is also a Harman Dealer as most of the stove shops are expensive and don't know anything about boilers.

VT_Bubba


----------



## katman

That's good advice about finding the right place to buy.  My local Harman dealer knows nothing about the boiler or furnace products and has little interest in learning.  Was willing to order for me only at full retail plus additional costs of approx. $400 for shipping.  Delivery to my place would be extra and they would not have it drop shipped.  I picked it up from a dealer about 100 miles away.  Paid a few hundred more than Vt but the price was good and so is the dealer.


----------



## velvetfoot

That's a "smoking" price.  

My situation isn't as bad, but he's talking list - a coupon.
As time passes to Spring, perhaps price will improve.
I'm thinking just get the unit delivered and take care of the rest.

As far as shopping purely on price, itt'd be nice to deal locally for warranty issues.


----------



## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

Go to the Harman Web Page and see the $300 Coupon.

Note: It does NOT say boiler but my harman dealer took the $100 coupon last year toward our boiler purchases.  I would get the Web Coupon (free) and ask your dealer if he will take it on a boiler purchase.  If he does, you owe me a Beer !

Good Luck !

VT_Bubba


----------



## velvetfoot

Already did that.  $300 off msrp.

I think I already started the 30 day coupon ticker...oops.

Price has to better, coupon or not, in spring/summer.


----------



## velvetfoot

VT_Bubba,

I've started going through your posts to put it all together.

Was the following typos?  Did you mean > (greater than) instead of < (less than)?  I don't want to assume.

"1) Added 1 Circulator Aquastat on the Pellet Boiler (If Pellet Boiler < 140F and the House control wants heat, then turn-on the pellet 

circulator to provide the hot water to the manifold).
2) Added 1 Boiler Aquastat on the Pellet Boiler to Hold-Off the Oil Boiler start, if the pellet boiler is hot (If Pellet Boiler < 135F then 

do not allow the house control to get to the Oil Boiler)."


----------



## VT_Bubba

Velvetfoot,

Yes, my "<" symbols should have been ">" symbols !    I noticed that after I submitted the posts. I hoped Intelligent readers like you, would understand my incompetence.  My apology for being lazy on my posts (typing, spelling, English, punctuation, etc...).  Hopefully, my technical experience and advice is better than my communication skills.... 

Also, pay close attention to the Aquastat partnumbers (Honeywell L4006A vs L4006B) !  One makes contact on temperature rise (Circulator Control) and the other makes contact on Temperature Fall (Boiler Control).

BTW - I'm guessing your not going to get a better price out of your local dealer on the off season (IE: More than the $300 coupon - I hate to see you lose that $300).

Good Luck on your price negotiations ! 

VT_Bubba


----------



## velvetfoot

VT_Bubba,

I thought that's what you meant but I didn't want to assume.

I will check out those aquatats.

On price, yeah, plus any warranty good-will would be a plus.

He's putting some prices together for different scenarios.


----------



## Matt_VT

VT_Bubba said:


> ,
> 
> 
> In general, the Tarm Wood boiler plumbing schematics are the best that I have found anywhere. These Tarm guy's really know how to plumb multi-boilers and have my respect ! Based on the installs I have seen, most master plumbers could use a lesson from these Tarm guy's. I hope I don't get in trouble for posting this link, but please reference this Tarm document :
> ==> http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> VT_Bubba


 
This is a great thread!  This Tarm schematic seems to no longer exist, or is not accessible by mortals.  Do you happen to have a copy of it?  I'm currently running a PB105 in series w/ my oil boiler.  I was pretty unsure about the heat lost through the oil unit, but my plumber convinced me that simple is better.  Sometimes that's hard to argue.  But we did install some Tees and manual valves so that future possibilities can be explored.  I figure I'll see how this season goes; it will give me some time to think about it.  I noticed someone commented that heat lost goes into the room anyway, I think a good deal of heat also goes up the chimney of the unfired boiler, think about it...

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## heaterman

I will say to ANYONE considering a pellet boiler that you really need to check out Windhager before you pull the trigger.

We have one of the BioWin Exclusive models up and running near our place and it is amazing. Flue temps run less than 230* and after 7 weeks of use the inside of the flue pipe has a film of dust on it but the metal itself is bright and shiny. The guy we installed it for keeps telling me about it and half of what he says I find hard to believe. (4 cups of ashes in 3 weeks of burning!?)
I have to get back there with my combustion analyzer and get some measurements on that thing. It has to be pushing 90% efficiency.


----------



## VT_Bubba

Matt_VT said:


> This is a great thread! This Tarm schematic seems to no longer exist, or is not accessible by mortals. Do you happen to have a copy of it? I'm currently running a PB105 in series w/ my oil boiler. I was pretty unsure about the heat lost through the oil unit, but my plumber convinced me that simple is better. Sometimes that's hard to argue. But we did install some Tees and manual valves so that future possibilities can be explored. I figure I'll see how this season goes; it will give me some time to think about it. I noticed someone commented that heat lost goes into the room anyway, I think a good deal of heat also goes up the chimney of the unfired boiler, think about it...
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt


 

Hello Matt_VT,

I recently went to that HS-TARM link above and found they had removed those multi-boiler schematics !  I was really bummed that I never kept a copy. They had basically ever type of multi-boiler installation possible.

BTW - I agree with your statement about the heat going up the unfired boiler chimney (direct vent boilers are a little better on that issue).  I also don't like that the oil boiler must heat the pellet boiler on serries implementations, unless you have some kind of bypass setup for the off season oil operation. But it's hard to argue with simple.

VT_Bubba


----------



## Downeast Farmer

VT_Bubba--
Why do you need the oil backup to a pellet boiler?  Is that like having an oil boiler backup to an oil boiler?  I thought one of the advantages to pellet boilers is that you don't need a backup as long as you have a large enough pellet hopper.  No?


----------



## VT_Bubba

Downeaster--

My Solar DHW system, Pellet Boiler, and Oil Boiler with Indirect DHW tank all work together automatically as needed (No manual switch overs required).  I have oil back-up for several important reasons :

1) Sometimes we go away in the winter (Kids and Grandbabies live out of state - You can't stop GrandMa_Bubba) !  We have made it 4days and 3nights in zero-degree weather over xmas last year, with reduced house temp settings, using 1 HF60 hopper load of pellets and an initial load in the woodstove before we left the house. It's good to know the oil boiler will kick on if the house ever needs heat and the pellet boiler is cold for any reason. 

2) Summer DHW use when the solar can't keep up (Kids visiting), or several days of rain\cloudy.  Keeping the pellet boiler at temp in the summer months, just for an occasional DHW call, just does not make any sense for me.  I use less than 20 gals of oil a year !  

3) I personally believe my HF60 is undersized for my house. With my woodstove running in the basement it's perfect. However, if I ever had to heat my whole house in below zero weather for an extended time, I don't think my little HF60 could handle it. In my system the oil will always kick on if required. I just happened to be in my basement and witnessed a rare oil-boiler assist to my pellet boiler one time last week, when 2 totally cold zones kicked on at the same time and the pellet boiler had to go through an ignition cycle. My oil boiler assisted for about 10mins while the pellet boiler came back-up to temp, then the oil shut-down. 





My oil back-up is rarely used, but I would never go without some kind of high reliability back-up system.



VT_Bubba


----------



## VT_Bubba

Matt, 

I was just looking around the woodboilers.com web site and found some updated plumbing schematics.  You need to click on a product type, then look for the documentation tab for that product.  You may find the wood boiler schematics more helpful.  I tried to attach the PDF file, but keep getting an error on upload.

Good Luck 
VT_Bubba


----------



## Matt_VT

VT_Bubba said:


> Matt,
> 
> I was just looking around the woodboilers.com web site and found some updated plumbing schematics. You need to click on a product type, then look for the documentation tab for that product. You may find the wood boiler schematics more helpful. I tried to attach the PDF file, but keep getting an error on upload.
> 
> Good Luck
> VT_Bubba


 
Great, thanks.  I see it now.  There's a lot of info in there.  Some are relatively straightforward.  Others get fairly complex - I think some of the components in those could set you back quite a bundle.  I'm up and running in my simple series configuration (install done in the dead of winter so couldn't mess around), but I have to tinker soon.  I think my first priority is to make it so my oil boiler doesn't run.  Second priority get it out of the loop.  The deal is it's not a cold start boiler, and I've got no reason to buy a new one.  Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think the only reason a boiler can't cold start is the manufacturer didn't make it robust enough to handle a bit of flue gas condensation.  Now if I make it so the oil boiler never turns on, unless the pellet boiler is truly kaput, then no flue gas, no reason it has to stay warm.  Am I right?  I don't have the details worked out yet, but I think it's something like this - a normally closed relay that is latched open by a momentary switch (labeled "oil boiler off").  An aquastat near the pellet boiler that closes cold, but connected to a time delay relay.  So... the oil boiler is off.  But if the pellet boiler ever goes cold for more than 20 minutes, then the oil boiler is switched into its normal operating mode until you correct the pellet boiler issue (add pellets or whatever) and reset the momentary switch.  Sound like it could work?  Then when I change my plumbing I'll still be able to use (or slightly modify) my oil boiler on/off plan.  More to come regarding plumbing...

Matt


----------



## old wethead

VT_Bubba said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I'm a newbie to this forum and looking to get some discussion going on the Harman Hydroflex 60 boiler. I purchased my Hydroflex 60 last April (2011) and installed it myself over the summer. We''ve been burning it all this winter and we love it ! So far, no problems. I have several friends with PB105's, and some folks are having problems (bad control boards, probes, burn pots, etc...). However, my Hydroflex 60 is making me proud.
> 
> My local dealer tried to discourage the Hydroflex 60, because of our severe VT winters and heating loads. However, I had space restrictions and really could not accomodate the physical size of the PB105. In the end, the Hydroflex 60 seems to be meeting our needs, although I do have smart controls and still augment my heat with a woodstove in the basement (still have wood to be burned from clearing the land).
> 
> My home heating system (self designed and installed):
> - Biasi B10-4 Oil fired, with 0.5gal/hr nozzel (Direct Vented with outside air in)
> - Circulator per zone, with 40gal Indirect Hot Water Tank and Priority Control on the Hot Water.
> - 80gal Solar Hot Water System, with 2 Stibel-Eltron Flat Plate Collectors on my roof
> - 1st floor 60ft baseboard
> - 2nd floor 40ft baseboard
> - Basement Man Cave (Hearthstone Mansfield Wood Stove)
> 
> I declare several Boiler Design Biases :
> 1) Always Pump Away (Air Seperation should always be on the low preasure side of the pump)
> 2) I like Outside Air In and have it installed on my Oil Boiler, Pellet Boier and Woodstove ! (It's always Good and never bad)
> 3) I like Indirect Hot Water Tanks
> 
> I hope folks will share their Hydroflex 60 issues/experiences, and I will try to share my knowledge with those who are interested.
> 
> VT_Bubba
> - Harman Hydroflex 60
> - Hearthstone Mansfield Soapstone Woodstove
> - 16 Acres with 1/4 mile drive to my bunker on top of the hill
> - B2710 Kubota Tractor for the Bubba Work
> - 2003 Toyota Tundra with 7,000lb trailer (Pellet Hauler)
> - Lot's of guns to keep the Crazy's out .. ;-)


----------



## old wethead

hi, im new to the forum but I have been putting boilers in for yrs... I am considering a hydroflex 60 and solar dhw to add to my hot water system... where did you get your solar panels and is it a drainback system?... roughly what did it cost?  thank you for any help you can give... I live in the north of ny ... near Massena.... we get cold and snow probably similar to vt... thanks


----------



## Matt_VT

VT_Bubba said:


> Matt,
> 
> I was just looking around the woodboilers.com web site and found some updated plumbing schematics. You need to click on a product type, then look for the documentation tab for that product. You may find the wood boiler schematics more helpful. I tried to attach the PDF file, but keep getting an error on upload.
> 
> Good Luck
> VT_Bubba


 
Hi Bubba,

I've been looking through this 2.4 schematic you mentioned earlier.  It appears that when you run the pellet (in the schematic cord wood) boiler the weighted check is opened by the pellet circulator, and the swing check on the oil boiler is closed by the same flow.  When you want to run the oil boiler you shut off the pellet circulator, and then your zone circs generate the flow through the oil boiler - is that right? 

I'd prefer to have the extra circulator on my oil boiler.  Basically swap the boilers in this schematic.  It works out much better (fewer rework) to my existing plumbing, reduces electricity use since I'll run pellets most of the time, and simplifies my powered dump zone a bit (only one circulator to run for dump).  Do you see any drawbacks to this?  Note I don't think I would run the mixing valve, so that stuff is out of the equation.

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## Matt_VT

Downeast Farmer said:


> VT_Bubba--
> Why do you need the oil backup to a pellet boiler? Is that like having an oil boiler backup to an oil boiler? I thought one of the advantages to pellet boilers is that you don't need a backup as long as you have a large enough pellet hopper. No?


 
Hi, what about an electric boiler for backup?  If it's for the hopefully rare event that your pellet unit breaks down, or you're away from home, then what could be more reliable (assuming the power is on)?  And I'd guess the cost is much lower than an oil or propane boiler and install.  I see some on the houseneeds website, looks like reasonable pricing to me.  Sure, operating cost would be high, but as long as you don't use it often it could be easily offset by the install savings.

Matt


----------



## SmokeEater

VT_Bubba said:


> Hello Matt_VT,
> 
> I recently went to that HS-TARM link above and found they had removed those multi-boiler schematics ! I was really bummed that I never kept a copy. They had basically ever type of multi-boiler installation possible.
> 
> BTW - I agree with your statement about the heat going up the unfired boiler chimney (direct vent boilers are a little better on that issue). I also don't like that the oil boiler must heat the pellet boiler on serries implementations, unless you have some kind of bypass setup for the off season oil operation. But it's hard to argue with simple.
> 
> VT_Bubba


I'm going to look for those TARM schematics on multiple boiler setups because I may have the whole pdf file.  Give me a little time, my computer is still indexing the files to search.


----------



## VT_Bubba

Matt_VT said:


> Hi Bubba,
> 
> I've been looking through this 2.4 schematic you mentioned earlier. It appears that when you run the pellet (in the schematic cord wood) boiler the weighted check is opened by the pellet circulator, and the swing check on the oil boiler is closed by the same flow. When you want to run the oil boiler you shut off the pellet circulator, and then your zone circs generate the flow through the oil boiler - is that right?
> 
> I'd prefer to have the extra circulator on my oil boiler. Basically swap the boilers in this schematic. It works out much better (fewer rework) to my existing plumbing, reduces electricity use since I'll run pellets most of the time, and simplifies my powered dump zone a bit (only one circulator to run for dump). Do you see any drawbacks to this? Note I don't think I would run the mixing valve, so that stuff is out of the equation.
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt


 

Hello Matt,

Yes, you understand the design point correctly.  I did not want another circulator during Oil operation and that is one benifit of that 1-circ design over a two circ design.  I don't see why the 1-circ design could not be used either way (circ on the oil vs circ on the pellet). The key to having 1 circ vs two circs, is that weighted check valve which is required in the 1 circ design.  You need to make sure that the boiler flow of the boiler circ, can meet the flow needs of all of the zones, or you will get parasitic flow through the off-boiler when multiple zones turn-on at the same time, wasting heat in the off-boiler.

However, I think you need a totally different design, which will always circulate your pellet hot water to the oil boiler to keep the DHW coil hot. Your DHW comes from a coil in your Oil Boiler, Right ?  You probably do NOT need the mixing valve and you do NOT really need a powered dump loop using pellet (you should have a powered dump for a wood boiler !).  The HF60  provides an internal "Over-Temp" relay, which I did wire in parallel to one of my zone thermostat's, so if the HF60 were ever to go "over-temp", it would just turn on one of my zones. Notice that Harman does NOT require a Dump Zone per say, but that may be handy if you plan to run in MANUAL Mode (but that's easy to do with another auqastat that just picks one of your zones as I describe above).  

BTW: Per one of your previous posts, a cold start boiler is used when you have an Indirect DHW tank on a zone (no need to keep the boiler hot all the time).  Your DHW coil in the boiler requires "Non-Cold Start" operation to keep that DHW hot all the time.  If you added an Indirect DHW Tank, you could change your oil boiler Auquastat and convert your existing oil-boiler to Cold-Start operation.

I hope that helps ...

VT_Bubba


----------



## VT_Bubba

Matt_VT said:


> Hi, what about an electric boiler for backup? If it's for the hopefully rare event that your pellet unit breaks down, or you're away from home, then what could be more reliable (assuming the power is on)? And I'd guess the cost is much lower than an oil or propane boiler and install. I see some on the houseneeds website, looks like reasonable pricing to me. Sure, operating cost would be high, but as long as you don't use it often it could be easily offset by the install savings.
> 
> Matt


 
Nothing wrong with that plan.  Durring the summer months my Solar does most of my DHW work and my existing Indirect DHW Tank can fire the oil if needed, Oil is still cheaper than Electric for heating water.  Every situation is different, based on your house use model and existing systems. 

VT_Bubba


----------



## VT_Bubba

old wethead said:


> hi, im new to the forum but I have been putting boilers in for yrs... I am considering a hydroflex 60 and solar dhw to add to my hot water system... where did you get your solar panels and is it a drainback system?... roughly what did it cost? thank you for any help you can give... I live in the north of ny ... near Massena.... we get cold and snow probably similar to vt... thanks


 

Hello Old WetHead,

Welcome to the forum !

Solar DHW equipment is pretty much available at any plumbing supply place these days, both Flat Plate and Evacuated Tube collectors. You can also buy Solar kits (Tank, Diff Controller, Panels, Pump, etc...). Most plumbing supply places can also help with your Solar system design.

My Solar DHW system is NOT Drain Back, it's pressurised glycol, which is typical for a northern install. I did not buy a kit, because I wanted a lifetime SS tank. So, I designed my own system and bought most of the parts at HouseNeeds.com. The HouseNeeds folks were very knowledgeable and helpful, and were also reasonably close for me to pick-up (No Shipping). I'm a self-described high reliability, ease of use, and high efficiency freak. I used 2 Flat Plate collectors for High-Reliability and snow shed, and a Lifetime HeatFlo 80gal SS tank. I prefer 2 tank Solar DHW system designs (80gal Solar Tank feeds my 40gal DHW Tank which is heated with pellet or oil as needed). My solar DHW has been in operation for 4yrs now, without a single problem. I had about $5,800 in total equipment cost, but got the 30% Fed Tax Credit on that, so I have about $4,000 total investment. I figure about 1 more yr for full payback.

Solar DHW is a great complement to your existing pellet, or wood boiler system ! BTW: I really wanted to super size my solar design to get some home heating out of it. But after some long,deep calculations, I concluded that it did not pass my business case, because of my existing High-Temp Base Board heating system. If you have an existing Low Temp radiant home heating system, then Solar Heating might make sense, but it did not make sense for me.

VT_Bubba


----------



## SmokeEater

VT_Bubba said:


> Hello Old WetHead,
> 
> Welcome to the forum !
> 
> Solar DHW equipment is pretty much available at any plumbing supply place these days, both Flat Plate and Evacuated Tube collectors. You can also buy Solar kits (Tank, Diff Controller, Panels, Pump, etc...). Most plumbing supply places can also help with your Solar system design.
> 
> My Solar DHW system is NOT Drain Back, it's pressurised glycol, which is typical for a northern install. I did not buy a kit, because I wanted a lifetime SS tank. So, I designed my own system and bought most of the parts at HouseNeeds.com. The HouseNeeds folks were very knowledgeable and helpful, and were also reasonably close for me to pick-up (No Shipping). I'm a s.......................................................................because of my existing High-Temp Base Board heating system. If you have an existing Low Temp radiant home heating system, then Solar Heating might make sense, but it did not make sense for me.
> 
> VT_Bubba


I did find those TARM schematics in my files but they are in pdf format and are 4.4 MB in size.  If you want, I'll email them.    JD


----------



## Matt_VT

VT_Bubba said:


> Hello Matt,
> 
> Yes, you understand the design point correctly. I did not want another circulator during Oil operation and that is one benifit of that 1-circ design over a two circ design. I don't see why the 1-circ design could not be used either way (circ on the oil vs circ on the pellet). The key to having 1 circ vs two circs, is that weighted check valve which is required in the 1 circ design. You need to make sure that the boiler flow of the boiler circ, can meet the flow needs of all of the zones, or you will get parasitic flow through the off-boiler when multiple zones turn-on at the same time, wasting heat in the off-boiler.
> 
> However, I think you need a totally different design, which will always circulate your pellet hot water to the oil boiler to keep the DHW coil hot. Your DHW comes from a coil in your Oil Boiler, Right ? You probably do NOT need the mixing valve and you do NOT really need a powered dump loop using pellet (you should have a powered dump for a wood boiler !). The HF60 provides an internal "Over-Temp" relay, which I did wire in parallel to one of my zone thermostat's, so if the HF60 were ever to go "over-temp", it would just turn on one of my zones. Notice that Harman does NOT require a Dump Zone per say, but that may be handy if you plan to run in MANUAL Mode (but that's easy to do with another auqastat that just picks one of your zones as I describe above).
> 
> BTW: Per one of your previous posts, a cold start boiler is used when you have an Indirect DHW tank on a zone (no need to keep the boiler hot all the time). Your DHW coil in the boiler requires "Non-Cold Start" operation to keep that DHW hot all the time. If you added an Indirect DHW Tank, you could change your oil boiler Auquastat and convert your existing oil-boiler to Cold-Start operation.
> 
> I hope that helps ...
> 
> VT_Bubba


 
Hi,

I lost track of this post, but I do want to discuss this more, I'm starting to make some summer plans for mods.  My DHW is coming from an electric heat pump water heater.  I'm going to shut down my oil and pellet furnaces for the summer.  The reason I think my oil boiler is not a "cold start" model is what I read in the manual (it's an "Ultimate" furnace).  It says you must run hot.  If you run it cold start then they require you install an inline thermostat, I guess to avoid thermal shock and condensation, and I don't really want to mess with that.  I figure I can use a relay to wire my oil boiler such that it's shut off, but if for some reason the pellet boiler goes cold then the oil will fire up and stay on. 

So, what I'm trying to figure out now is how to size the pellet circulator.  Looking at the Tarm document (2 boiler direct design), it seems like if the zone circulators draw more flow than the primary, there's a risk of the swing check valve that goes to the oil boiler supply opening and heating the inactive oil boiler.  Does the pellet circulator need to be bigger than all zone circs combined?  Or am I not thinking this through properly?  I don't want to oversize that circulator and waste electricity...

Matt


----------



## BadgerBoilerMN

With a single heat source the primary loop is usually pumped through the boiler and secondary "tertiary" pumps pull water from this primary loop. Solid fuel boilers almost always require high operating temperatures to assure clean burning and avoid "sustained flue condensation", so running typical radiant floor return temperatures directly to a solid fuel boiler is not a good idea. 

The piping for most of these boiler should then be primary/secondary with boiler pump being secondary and the speed of that pump controlled for temperature. With two heat sources it is usually best to pipe them individually to the primary (the pipe taking hot water out to the terminals with a dedicated circulator) so that each may inject heated water to the primary as needed. We have not used weighted check since the advent of integral checks came out years ago. Most of the hydronic system we design use three speed circulators such as Grundfos 1558 and more and more Alpha and Wilos in the mix. 

Keep your boilers water hot and your terminal water cool.


----------



## VT_Bubba

Matt_VT said:


> Hi,
> 
> I lost track of this post, but I do want to discuss this more, I'm starting to make some summer plans for mods. My DHW is coming from an electric heat pump water heater. I'm going to shut down my oil and pellet furnaces for the summer. The reason I think my oil boiler is not a "cold start" model is what I read in the manual (it's an "Ultimate" furnace). It says you must run hot. If you run it cold start then they require you install an inline thermostat, I guess to avoid thermal shock and condensation, and I don't really want to mess with that. I figure I can use a relay to wire my oil boiler such that it's shut off, but if for some reason the pellet boiler goes cold then the oil will fire up and stay on.
> 
> So, what I'm trying to figure out now is how to size the pellet circulator. Looking at the Tarm document (2 boiler direct design), it seems like if the zone circulators draw more flow than the primary, there's a risk of the swing check valve that goes to the oil boiler supply opening and heating the inactive oil boiler. Does the pellet circulator need to be bigger than all zone circs combined? Or am I not thinking this through properly? I don't want to oversize that circulator and waste electricity...
> 
> Matt


 
Hello Matt,

Yes, you are 100% correct. The Primary Loop flow must handle the entire flow of the combined secondary loops, or you will get parasitic flow through the off boiler.  In my system, I run 3-speed Taco-00R Circ's with the Heating Zones on Speed1 ( with 3/4" Pipe), with my Primary Pellet Loop using 1" piping on speed2.  The pellet loop using 1" on speed-2 can supply enough flow to support Qty=2 Zones of 3/4" Piping on speed1.  You can also add some Adjustable Flow Control Check-valves to your zones, to adjust the zone flows down to match the available primary loop flow.

Instead of the relay, I would use a simple Honeywell L4006A Aquastat located over on the Pellet Boiler, to "OPEN" the oil-boiler circuit if the pellet boiler is ever above 135F.  So if the pellet boiler is every below 135F (for any reason....), the oil boiler will be powered as it normally would be.  I also use a Honeywell L4006B on my pellet circulator, so the pellet circ will only run if the pellet boiler is > 140F.

I hope that helps...

VT_Bubba


----------



## heaterman

After readin through all of this I have to ask a question. ......

Doesn't Harman offer any diagrams on installation or have a tech line that you can call?


----------



## VT_Bubba

heaterman said:


> After readin through all of this I have to ask a question. ......
> 
> Doesn't Harman offer any diagrams on installation or have a tech line that you can call?


 

HeaterMan,

No, Harman provides very little information on Multi-Boiler systems.  As you know, there are many ways to put together multiple boiler systems, depending on your existing heating systems, your life-style, your budget, etc...  But let's be honest here, most Oil and Gas Boiler's don't provide mult-boiler information either.  The Harman doc's do show basic hook-up for a single boiler system, just like most other boiler docs.

You can go to the Harman Web pages and download the PDF file if your interested. From a multi-boiler standpoint, the Harman Pellet Boilers are just like any other boiler from a multi-system design standpoint.

VT_Bubba


----------



## iceguy4

velvetfoot said:


> Thanks. Seems like the latest model burn pot and pressure ignition (whatever that is) solves the problem.
> Not clear if it applies to the Hydroflex60 though.
> 
> Post 29 on this thread has a Harmon dealer's opinion:
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/68030/P22/
> "my local harman dealer told me he would rather not sell me a hydroflex. Told me they had to be cleaned daily due to heat exchange design. Told me he wouldnt promote it untill they change the design and that I would be much happier with the pb105.(which is too big and dont want) "
> 
> Daily cleaning? I know pellet stoves require maintenance, but that's seems a lot to me. Maybe I'm spoiled with my low-tech wood insert.
> It doesn't seem the gassifiers require that much maintenance.


 

I have a PB 105 and love it...It is too big for my house this year but worked almost perfectly.  I purchased it early (it will heat another bulding next yer as well as the one it heated this year)  to start the savings from the price of heating oil.  This unit can go over a week un-attended with a bulk hopper (not reccomended)   so what if it is a bit too big   ...it will just run less.    good boiler IMHO...


----------



## VT_Bubba

Hello IceGuy4,

I'm happy to hear that your PB105 is meeting your needs.  I have read multiple comments about the need for "Daiily cleanings", but take notice that these comments are always hear-say from people that have never owned or used one of these boilers. I have never heard a real owner complaining about cleaning the HF60 or the PB105. 

The HF60 has better access to the Burn-Pot for the every 1-2 day burn-pot scrape (30sec of work when you are adding pellets), but does require additional cleaning of the Heat Exchanger and Spirals about every 2-4wks (30-40mins for a complete cleaning). The PB105 has a massive ash pan and can easily burn 1-ton of pellets before you need to empty the ashes.

I try to scrape my burn-pot everyday, if I happen to be in the basement and find the boiler in shut-down because of no heat requested from the house.  If it's in shut-down (AUTOSTART mode), I always take the 30sec to scrape the HF60 burn-pot when I add pellets, just to remove any crust from the Hardwood Pellets (Softwood Pellets have no crust).  I have left my House\HF60 unattended in Zero degree Weather for 3days/4nights, with no problems.  Yes, pellet boilers do need attention, but nothing like many have implied.

BTW-If you see me commenting about the PB105 being "To Big", I'm talking about the physical size of the PB105 and the required space it needs in your boiler room, not the BTU output which is modulated as needed.  We are happy with the HF60, but would have used a PB105 if I had the physical space in my boiler room.

I see your pellet list.  What pellets do you like the best, and why ?

VT_Bubba


----------



## iceguy4

VT_Bubba said:


> Hello IceGuy4,
> 
> I'm happy to hear that your PB105 is meeting your needs. I have read multiple comments about the need for "Daiily cleanings", but take notice that these comments are always hear-say from people that have never owned or used one of these boilers. I have never heard a real owner complaining about cleaning the HF60 or the PB105.
> 
> The HF60 has better access to the Burn-Pot for the every 1-2 day burn-pot scrape (30sec of work when you are adding pellets), but does require additional cleaning of the Heat Exchanger and Spirals about every 2-4wks (30-40mins for a complete cleaning). The PB105 has a massive ash pan and can easily burn 1-ton of pellets before you need to empty the ashes.
> 
> I try to scrape my burn-pot everyday, if I happen to be in the basement and find the boiler in shut-down because of no heat requested from the house. If it's in shut-down (AUTOSTART mode), I always take the 30sec to scrape the HF60 burn-pot when I add pellets, just to remove any crust from the Hardwood Pellets (Softwood Pellets have no crust). I have left my House\HF60 unattended in Zero degree Weather for 3days/4nights, with no problems. Yes, pellet boilers do need attention, but nothing like many have implied.
> 
> BTW-If you see me commenting about the PB105 being "To Big", I'm talking about the physical size of the PB105 and the required space it needs in your boiler room, not the BTU output which is modulated as needed. We are happy with the HF60, but would have used a PB105 if I had the physical space in my boiler room.
> 
> I see your pellet list. What pellets do you like the best, and why ?
> 
> VT_Bubba


    I cant tell the difference in heat so the best pellet is the cheapest.  can you tell the difference.   also as for scraping burnpot...when I do a weekly cleaning I have so little crust that I have mooved it out to 2 weeks.   My veny and blower needs attention more.   I suspect because moving the scraper rods(3)  when blower is running lets too much soot go ...thoughts?   Also  the bulk hopper is the BOMB


----------



## velvetfoot

Did both you guys vent it out the side of the house?


----------



## iceguy4

velvetfoot said:


> Did both you guys vent it out the side of the house?


   I did.. and glad i chose that option.   during cold weather the blower runs most of the time.  moving the cleaning rods sends soot tward blower (cuz its running)   My blower and vent seem to need cleaning weekly or my unit will kick a code 3 (status light blinking 3 times...ESP out of range)  an easy clean project...like 10 min.   this time of year I'll bet i cn go up to 3 weeks without even going down stairs   I know some here are getting tired of hearing me brag (for want of a better word....for me the bulk hopper is a "no brainer" @ $2000.00+-.   It flips the time spent on my boiler...IE  90% of my time spent with my boiler is when I want...not 90% of the time being when it needs me...Iceguy...in control of  vertical and horizontal....


----------



## VT_Bubba

Yes, my HF60 is directed vented (No Chimney), with Outside Air-In too.

Yes, I can tell a difference in pellets. I can't really measure the BTU output of the pellets, but I can tell how the boiler responds under heavy load, when both zones kick on at the same time. In general, some Hardwood Pellets seem to put out more heat at a slower feed-rate, and seem to have less ash and fly-ash in the fan/pipe. However, most Hardwood Pellets seem to create a Crust in the burn-pot, which I think blocks the air flow and eventually effects the air-fuel mixture of the burn if you don't scrape every 1-2 days. I have never had any crust when burning softwood pellets, but they seem to create more ash.  I don't get much junk in the exaust pipe, but I do clean the fan about every other cleaning.  

VT_Bubba


----------



## velvetfoot

I've been thinking about this for a while,  and I can see the hf60  fitting in to occasionally  heat the man cave basement, not sure how much,  and to get the upstairs up to temp.   The insert doesn't get the upstairs warm enough on the chilly days.   The venting out the side would save a lot of money,  and I'm  not even sure I could get another flue in the chase if I wanted to.


----------



## Doeboy611

VT_Bubba said:


> Yes, my HF60 is directed vented (No Chimney), with Outside Air-In too.
> 
> Yes, I can tell a difference in pellets. I can't really measure the BTU output of the pellets, but I can tell how the boiler responds under heavy load, when both zones kick on at the same time. In general, some Hardwood Pellets seem to put out more heat at a slower feed-rate, and seem to have less ash and fly-ash in the fan/pipe. However, most Hardwood Pellets seem to create a Crust in the burn-pot, which I think blocks the air flow and eventually effects the air-fuel mixture of the burn if you don't scrape every 1-2 days. I have never had any crust when burning softwood pellets, but they seem to create more ash. I don't get much junk in the exaust pipe, but I do clean the fan about every other cleaning.
> 
> VT_Bubba


 
We are considering purchasing the Hydroflex 60 for our 1600 ft2 ranch.  After reading most of these posts I am still unsure what is involved for the process of cleaning these units.  It sounds like you need to scrape the burn pot every day or so which only takes a minute or two.  What does it take for time, tools etc for cleaning the rest of the furnace?  My experience has been with wood and coal stoves which seem to be pretty simple in comparison, but would like to move to pellets to save us time and wear and tear on our bodies.  Thanks for your assistance.


----------



## VT_Bubba

*


Doeboy611 said:



			We are considering purchasing the Hydroflex 60 for our 1600 ft2 ranch. After reading most of these posts I am still unsure what is involved for the process of cleaning these units. It sounds like you need to scrape the burn pot every day or so which only takes a minute or two. What does it take for time, tools etc for cleaning the rest of the furnace? My experience has been with wood and coal stoves which seem to be pretty simple in comparison, but would like to move to pellets to save us time and wear and tear on our bodies. Thanks for your assistance.
		
Click to expand...

* 
*Hello DoeBoy611,*

Don't be scared by the cleaning. I clean my HF60 in about 5 phases (depending on how much I'm burning) :
1) Daily Cleaning (1-2mins) - Scrape the burn-pot and put pellets in the hopper (Far easier then loading the wood stove !)
2) Every 1-2wks Cleaning (3-5mins) - Empty the ash pan, Scrape the burn-pot, and put pellets in the hopper (Far easier and faster then emptying the ash and loading the wood stove !).
3) Every 3-4wks Cleaning (10-20mins) - Vaccum the Heat Exchanger, Empty the ash pan, Scrape the burn-pot, and put pellets in the hopper.
4) Every 6-10wks (2-3 times a heating season) Cleaning (20-40mins) - Clean exhaust pipe, Vaccum the Exhaust Fan,Vaccum the Heat Exchanger, Empty the ash pan, Scrape the burn-pot, and put pellets in the hopper.
5) End of every Season (1hr - 1.5hr) - Everything in step 4), plus I clean the lower burn-pot, each spiral, and the pellet augar assembly.

I hope that helps !

VT_Bubba


----------



## Doeboy611

VT_Bubba said:


> *Hello DoeBoy611,*
> 
> Don't be scared by the cleaning. I clean my HF60 in about 5 phases (depending on how much I'm burning) :
> 1) Daily Cleaning (1-2mins) - Scrape the burn-pot and put pellets in the hopper (Far easier then loading the wood stove !)
> 2) Every 1-2wks Cleaning (3-5mins) - Empty the ash pan, Scrape the burn-pot, and put pellets in the hopper (Far easier and faster then emptying the ash and loading the wood stove !).
> 3) Every 3-4wks Cleaning (10-20mins) - Vaccum the Heat Exchanger, Empty the ash pan, Scrape the burn-pot, and put pellets in the hopper.
> 4) Every 6-10wks (2-3 times a heating season) Cleaning (20-40mins) - Clean exhaust pipe, Vaccum the Exhaust Fan,Vaccum the Heat Exchanger, Empty the ash pan, Scrape the burn-pot, and put pellets in the hopper.
> 5) End of every Season (1hr - 1.5hr) - Everything in step 4), plus I clean the lower burn-pot, each spiral, and the pellet augar assembly.
> 
> I hope that helps !
> 
> VT_Bubba


 
Thanks for the quick reply.  The process sounds pretty manageable and I think we will be moving forward with the purchase.  One more question. In an earlier post you mentioned that when you installed your unit you also added two additional circulators that allowed your oil and pellet boilers to work in series and independently of each other. Without those would there be operational difficulties?  All the shared knowledge is greatly appreciated!


----------



## VT_Bubba

Doeboy611 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply. The process sounds pretty manageable and I think we will be moving forward with the purchase. One more question. In an earlier post you mentioned that when you installed your unit you also added two additional circulators that allowed your oil and pellet boilers to work in series and independently of each other. Without those would there be operational difficulties? All the shared knowledge is greatly appreciated!


 

*DoeBoy611,*

*I think you may be getting confused with all of the multi-boiler installation posts on this thread.  My two boilers (Oil and Pellet) are plumbed in Parallel (Not in Series as you implied). This is an installation detail and may be different based on your existing system type(s). Every install is different and sometimes Series makes more sense than Parallel.*

*In my parallel install, I added one new circulator to push the Pellet Hot Water onto the existing Oil-Boiler Header pipe, using 2 new aquastats on the Pellet Boiler for control (One Aquastat holds OFF the Oil-Boiler fire when the Pellet Boiler is HOT, the second aquastat turns ON the new pellet circulator when the house wants heat and the Pellet Boiler is HOT). I did this so the new Pellet circulator will only run when the Pellet Boiler is HOT and the House is calling for heat.*
*I hope that helps !*
*VT_Bubba*


----------



## Doeboy611

VT_Bubba said:


> *DoeBoy611,*
> 
> *I think you may be getting confused with all of the multi-boiler installation posts on this thread. My two boilers (Oil and Pellet) are plumbed in Parallel (Not in Series as you implied). This is an installation detail and may be different based on your existing system type(s). Every install is different and sometimes Series makes more sense than Parallel.*
> 
> *In my parallel install, I added one new circulator to push the Pellet Hot Water onto the existing Oil-Boiler Header pipe, using 2 new aquastats on the Pellet Boiler for control (One Aquastat holds OFF the Oil-Boiler fire when the Pellet Boiler is HOT, the second aquastat turns ON the new pellet circulator when the house wants heat and the Pellet Boiler is HOT). I did this so the new Pellet circulator will only run when the Pellet Boiler is HOT and the House is calling for heat.*
> *I hope that helps !*
> *VT_Bubba*


 
Yes, definitely confused - got it now - thanks again!


----------



## ovendoctor

just wanted to say Hiya from Da U P of Michigan [ were it snows 10 months of the year and has 2 months of bad snowmobiling ]

we just installed a Harman Hf 60 and are loving it,it heats the house nicely [100+ year old] and we heat our DW with a home made pre heater

electric bill dropped 120.00 for hot water

Doc.


----------



## heaterman

Welcome aboard ovendoctor. 

How are ashes handled in the Harmon and how often do you have to clean the flue tubes?


----------



## ovendoctor

there is a ash can that slides into the unit,,,have run about 1/2 ton threw it so far and finally filled the ash can 
at the present time we are using it to heat domestic water 
the cleaning job is going to happen this week and ill let ya know how it goes
Tech support was awesome in trouble shooting a start up issue over the phone
the unit was getting too much fuel and smoking up the neighborhood real bad,reset the dip switches on the circuit board and fixed the issue
the nearest service tech is 2 hrs away in Marquette
other than that its been a great unit
now the fun part is sorting out the wiring for the ''zone valves'' Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
inherited the mess wen we bought the place,3 zones and wires every were [sloppy]
what do you expect for Da Keweenaw LOL

Doc.


----------



## ovendoctor

welp the cleaning job was not too bad[need to purchase a 2''boiler tube brush]
also a retractable drop lite would be wonderfull 
the secondary tubes are going to be a pain due to having to remove the heat deflectors in the burn chamber to axcess the ash trap
figure ill get a smaller dia. vacuum hose and go at it from the top
was just able to get the 2'' hose down the tubes this time to clean the ash traps
over all its still easier than the Breckwells [parlor stove and Big E]
had the fuel feed on 1 today for the DHW and it worked great
now for the sad news 
I read the thread for running lines under ground [what a nightmare]
I really would like to run a line set out to the green house/sauna house
its about 30' but the water table is at ground level here
so Iz really have to do some heavy thinking on this one
the whole idea is to have it all automated so there is less work growing food in the winter up here
its great picking fresh produce Christmas day with 6' of snow on the ground

more updates to come

Doc.


----------



## VT_Bubba

ovendoctor said:


> welp the cleaning job was not too bad[need to purchase a 2''boiler tube brush]
> also a retractable drop lite would be wonderfull
> the secondary tubes are going to be a pain due to having to remove the heat deflectors in the burn chamber to axcess the ash trap
> figure ill get a smaller dia. vacuum hose and go at it from the top
> was just able to get the 2'' hose down the tubes this time to clean the ash traps
> over all its still easier than the Breckwells [parlor stove and Big E]
> had the fuel feed on 1 today for the DHW and it worked great
> now for the sad news
> I read the thread for running lines under ground [what a nightmare]
> I really would like to run a line set out to the green house/sauna house
> its about 30' but the water table is at ground level here
> so Iz really have to do some heavy thinking on this one
> the whole idea is to have it all automated so there is less work growing food in the winter up here
> its great picking fresh produce Christmas day with 6' of snow on the ground
> 
> more updates to come
> 
> Doc.


 Wecome Doc,

Thanks for sharing your HF60 experiences !

I only burn about 3T /yr in my HF60, but I never remove the Heat Sheilds except at the end of the Heating Season when I do a complete tear down and cleaning.  Durring the season, I just vac the Top Heat Exchanger and work the tubulators, empty ash pan.  About 1-3 times a season I clean the fan and check\clean the exaust pipe.

BTW: The really high BTU Hardwood pellets seem to have a smoky startup, unless you limit the amount of pellets in the burn pot during ignition (IE: your DIP switch change). I'm still running with the factor DIP Sw settings, using ALL Tubulators, but I like to mix some Softwood Pellets in with my Hdw Pellets, which seems to give me a really nice mix of fast clean ignition, and high heat output (which is very hard to measure ==> I can only observe the boiler temps during varrious load situations) .

VT_Bubba


----------



## thro9

I have a Hydroflex 60 and have been using it for the past year.  My issue is with cleaning the heat exchange.  Seems ash always gets distributed through my basement.  I'm using an ash vacuum which definitely cuts down on the ash circulation but I'm still seeing a considerable amount.  Any suggestions or tips on the weekly cleaning?

I also noticed a gooey discharge coming from just above the burnpot door after getting it up and running for the first time this season.  I've asked my Harman dealer about it, he said he would send my picture to Harman but I still haven't heard back from him (they are the most reliable).

Thanks!


----------



## VT_Bubba

thro9 said:


> I have a Hydroflex 60 and have been using it for the past year.  My issue is with cleaning the heat exchange.  Seems ash always gets distributed through my basement.  I'm using an ash vacuum which definitely cuts down on the ash circulation but I'm still seeing a considerable amount.  Any suggestions or tips on the weekly cleaning?
> 
> I also noticed a gooey discharge coming from just above the burnpot door after getting it up and running for the first time this season.  I've asked my Harman dealer about it, he said he would send my picture to Harman but I still haven't heard back from him (they are the most reliable).
> 
> Thanks!


 
Hello Thro9,

My HF60 certainly creates some dust and ash in my utility room during cleaning, but nothing like cleaning my woodstove in the adjacent room, which is much worse. Using an Ash Vac should give you the best results, but beyond that, I have no suggestions on cleanings. I have been burning my HF60 about 3-4wks now in 2013, but have not clean it yet. I have really good pellets this year (very low ash). 

I also noticed a gooey discharge on my HF60 frame around the lower ash door the first year I fired it, just like you are describing above.  I had assumed I was pulling to much heat from the boiler and it was condensing creosote (from the boiler operating below 140F, which is bad for the boiler....).  However, at the end of the first year, I cleaned it all off the door frame (the gooey stuff is really hard to get cleaned off) and have not seen it return.  I now wonder if it was clue from the door seal material ?  I now make sure my pellet circulator shuts-off at Temp <= 140F, and I'm not seeing that goo on the door frame  anymore.  So, was it creosote or clue from the factory that first year ?  I do not know for sure.

Thanks for sharing your HF60 experiences !

VT_Bubba


----------



## thro9

VT_Bubba said:


> Hello Thro9,
> 
> My HF60 certainly creates some dust and ash in my utility room during cleaning, but nothing like cleaning my woodstove in the adjacent room, which is much worse. Using an Ash Vac should give you the best results, but beyond that, I have no suggestions on cleanings. I have been burning my HF60 about 3-4wks now in 2013, but have not clean it yet. I have really good pellets this year (very low ash).
> 
> I also noticed a gooey discharge on my HF60 frame around the lower ash door the first year I fired it, just like you are describing above.  I had assumed I was pulling to much heat from the boiler and it was condensing creosote (from the boiler operating below 140F, which is bad for the boiler....).  However, at the end of the first year, I cleaned it all off the door frame (the gooey stuff is really hard to get cleaned off) and have not seen it return.  I now wonder if it was clue from the door seal material ?  I now make sure my pellet circulator shuts-off at Temp <= 140F, and I'm not seeing that goo on the door frame  anymore.  So, was it creosote or clue from the factory that first year ?  I do not know for sure.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your HF60 experiences !
> 
> VT_Bubba




Bubba, just recently my hydroflex quit working. I got 5 blinks as an error  message which states the igniter failed to fire after 40 mins. Long story short, I had the dealer tech come out and they said a failed sensor (just below the exhaust) and a bad igniter. The feeder would not feed any pellets (possibly because of the bad sensor), so I don't really know how they determined the igniter is also bad. I'm starting to wonder if I have a lemon. Your thoughts?


----------



## VT_Bubba

thro9 said:


> Bubba, just recently my hydroflex quit working. I got 5 blinks as an error  message which states the igniter failed to fire after 40 mins. Long story short, I had the dealer tech come out and they said a failed sensor (just below the exhaust) and a bad igniter. The feeder would not feed any pellets (possibly because of the bad sensor), so I don't really know how they determined the igniter is also bad. I'm starting to wonder if I have a lemon. Your thoughts?


 
Thro9,

Thanks for sharing your system failure with the forum !  That's how we all learn.

I'm hoping this was an early life electrical\electronic fail, and your HF60 starts performing better for you now.  When I read this forum, you are the first HF60 owner to report a real HF60 equipment failure (at least that I have read).  The exhaust sensor seems to be a common fail on the PB105's.  A neighbor has just gone through his 4th Burn-Pot on his PB105,  and the Harman tech just installed a new Ceramic Burn Pot and igniter system on that PB105 3wks ago (I have not seen it yet).

I was expecting the Igniter to be a routine replacement item on my HF60. I was going to order a replacement igniter, just to have at the house, but my Harman Dealer said the HF60 pressure ignition rarely fails and he keeps them right in stock anyway, so I never did buy a replacement.  I would expect these igniters to last 2-5yrs, but that is just my guess.

I'm 3yrs of low to moderate use and have not had a HF60 failure.  My HF60 ignites maybe 5-20 times a day and is still running fine.  My only advice is to keep the burn-pot scrapped and the exhaust chamber clean. A clean boiler is a happy boiler.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences !

VT_Bubba


----------



## BMW 22

Hey All, 
 I haven't had a chance to read through all the posts on here yet, but I have a HydroFlex 60 and have been using it for the past 2+ years. I've had great luck with it and am actually removing it from my current home (which I'm selling) and am going to be installing it in my new one.

I am happy to share any information/experiences I've had if anyone has questions about the boiler. I absolutely love it!
Have saved a ton of money on heating costs and it still utilizes my baseboards as well as providing the heat for the domestic hot water.


----------



## thro9

Sounds like you guys are fortunate with your Harman.  Unfortunately, I haven't been as lucky.  It was installed last December and I've had nothing but problems.  I had numerous issues with the installation by the Harman dealer's plumber.  He had to bring 2 separate plumbers out, the last one to correct issues with the original plumber.  It wasn't heating my home when the temperature would drop under 40.  I had to use my oil boiler to heat the house (which is the reason why I bought the Harman). In all, this has cost me around 10k and I'm still using oil.  Last week, the boiler stopped working all together.  The dealer came out on Wednesday and told me of 3 new problems. The exhaust sensor is damaged.  The tech checked it and found scratches on it. These scratches were the result of their tech coming out earlier this year and scraping it with a screw driver to get some ash off of it. This recent tech told me that was a big no-no and is likely the reason it failed.  He also said the igniter is bad and will need to be replaced.  Lastly, the gasket that goes around the burnpot door has come loose at the bottom (this is the 2nd one).

The dealer said he has ordered the parts from Harman but still hasn't received it. It'd be nice if they kept them on hand like VT Bubba's dealer.  Regardless, I don't know why it would take this long even if they had to order them.  This week has been cold and the oil has been running and will continue to run until the Harman issues are resolved. 

I've got 3 tons of pellets that are taking up space in my garage.  This has been unbelievably frustrating for me and my family and it seems as if I'm at the mercy of this Harman dealer.  I've asked them for a direct contact for Harman but they won't give me anything and say they are waiting on Harman.  I've kept up with the cleaning religously and don't know of anything I can do to make this any better.  

Maybe someone from Harman will see this post and be able to help.


----------



## BMW 22

Wow, that's rough. I bought mine in 2011 I think it was and had zero issues other than the switch to turn it on crapped out after the first week. I found a site that sold them and ordered 3 spares (they were cheap).
I installed it with the help of a friend so the cost was just materials for that part. I NEVER get anywhere close to the temperature probe when cleaning it. I clean the inside, and then I remove the fan and take a small toothbrush sized wire brush to it to get the the gunk off. I also remove my pipe once a year and vacuum it out (it runs horizontally for about 4' so it gets some ash build up).

My oil boiler does run once in a while, but since I installed my pellet boiler, I haven't dropped below 3/4 of a tank of oil (and this is the 3rd winter running it). It usually kicks on when both of my zones are calling for heat and have been, or if the shower is going while they are calling, just to ensure the boiler stays up to temp. but it has use barely any oil.

I'm wondering if the newer versions of them are coming out with cheaper parts or something. I haven't had any of the issues described here (although some of yours were created by your install guys - which I would be throwing a fit about to them to get some sort of compensation).

Good luck!


----------



## thro9

BMW 22, do you recall what was the cost of the install of your Harman? It seems you have a similar setup to mine with the oil backup. Thanks!


----------



## BMW 22

thro9 said:


> BMW 22, do you recall what was the cost of the install of your Harman? It seems you have a similar setup to mine with the oil backup. Thanks!



I did the install myself with the help of a friend, so it was pretty cheap. Just the amount of copper needed to hook the two directly together, a pump to circulate the water between the two, some pipe for a vent (I have a dial flu chimney so I tied into that).
You don't have to mess with the zones at all, just take 2 plugs out of the boiler (hopefully there are two ports not being used, one bottom and one top) and hook the feed to the pellet boiler in from the bottom port and dump the hot water back into the oil boiler at a higher port.

We did have to put a fuse thing over the top in case of a fire (same thing your oil boiler should have over it)

This all make sense?
Also I learned the hard way that the metal plates on the inside of the burn area come out and you need to remove them at least once a year (probably should be more) to clean out behind them. Guess I should've read the book closer, lol


----------



## gpjandra

This will be our 3rd winter using the Hydroflex for primary heat and DHW.  Burn about 2-3 ton/yr.  Had to replace the exhaust  fan but was under warranty.  I burn clean pellets and clean it weekly.  However it's more a pain than should be.  It would be nice to be able to clean the boiler flues without taking off the top and getting ash all over.  Also the those protector plates along each side of the burn pot are much to be desired trying to get out/ in to vacuum the ash out. It heats 3 zones, using thermostats to activate Taco controller for the circulators.

I'm trying mixing soft and hardwood pellets this year to see if it will burn clean and continue to throw off the same amount of heat.  Overall, I'd rate it a 4 out of 5 .  Curious on the life span of this model.


----------



## VT_Bubba

thro9 said:


> Sounds like you guys are fortunate with your Harman.  Unfortunately, I haven't been as lucky.  It was installed last December and I've had nothing but problems.  I had numerous issues with the installation by the Harman dealer's plumber.  He had to bring 2 separate plumbers out, the last one to correct issues with the original plumber.  It wasn't heating my home when the temperature would drop under 40.  I had to use my oil boiler to heat the house (which is the reason why I bought the Harman). In all, this has cost me around 10k and I'm still using oil.  Last week, the boiler stopped working all together.  The dealer came out on Wednesday and told me of 3 new problems. The exhaust sensor is damaged.  The tech checked it and found scratches on it. These scratches were the result of their tech coming out earlier this year and scraping it with a screw driver to get some ash off of it. This recent tech told me that was a big no-no and is likely the reason it failed.  He also said the igniter is bad and will need to be replaced.  Lastly, the gasket that goes around the burnpot door has come loose at the bottom (this is the 2nd one).
> 
> The dealer said he has ordered the parts from Harman but still hasn't received it. It'd be nice if they kept them on hand like VT Bubba's dealer.  Regardless, I don't know why it would take this long even if they had to order them.  This week has been cold and the oil has been running and will continue to run until the Harman issues are resolved.
> 
> I've got 3 tons of pellets that are taking up space in my garage.  This has been unbelievably frustrating for me and my family and it seems as if I'm at the mercy of this Harman dealer.  I've asked them for a direct contact for Harman but they won't give me anything and say they are waiting on Harman.  I've kept up with the cleaning religously and don't know of anything I can do to make this any better.
> 
> Maybe someone from Harman will see this post and be able to help.


 


Thro9,

Did you ever get your HF60 running satisfactory again ? I can sure relate to your frustrations.
We appreciate your sharing of problems and information !

Thanks,
VT_Bubba


----------



## timberframe

I have five radiant floor heat zones that I would need to keep warm. We are currently burning 6 ton of pellets in two differnet stoves to keep that space warm. Will the Harman Hydroflex 60 be sufficiant? We do have a backup 60.000 BTU gas boiler that seems to be sufficiant when we run it to keep up with the five zones.


----------



## thro9

VT_Bubba said:


> Thro9,
> 
> Did you ever get your HF60 running satisfactory again ? I can sure relate to your frustrations.
> We appreciate your sharing of problems and information !
> 
> Thanks,
> VT_Bubba




I've officially pulled the plug on the unit (literally).  The dealer came back out and are still not able to resolve the issues.  I've only been able to use it for about 2 weeks out of approx 2 months into this heating season.  The rest of the time I've been waiting on the dealer to come out but they have been out 3 times now and replaced the ESP sensor but the unit failed about an hour later.  The most recent time they came out they said the door on the back of the hopper was slightly open and that caused the unit to not come on.  It came on only to turn off for good an hour later.  I've never even come close to that door so I'm doubting that was really the cause.  The door is completely shut now and the unit still won't come on.  I've had it with the unit and dealing with this particular dealer.  I've asked for a refund on the Harman and am waiting on a response from the dealer. I'd like to mention the name of the dealer here to warn others but I'd rather not go that route at this time.

It's really a shame because I loved the idea of having this unit run properly and run on clean wood as opposed to oil.  I guess it wasn't meant to be.  I also wonder if it's not so much the unit itself but the dealers inability to diagnose these issues.  I've never been able to contact anyone from Harman directly to see if they could diagnose any of the problems.  The dealer has had over a year to get these issues resolved and I'm still left with a piece of metal that is just taking up space in my basement.  I'd say I've been patient enough.  I'll wait to hear the dealers response to my demand for a refund.  If they don't honor this request, I'll be taking legal action.


----------



## VT_Bubba

thro9 said:


> I've officially pulled the plug on the unit (literally).  The dealer came back out and are still not able to resolve the issues.  I've only been able to use it for about 2 weeks out of approx 2 months into this heating season.  The rest of the time I've been waiting on the dealer to come out but they have been out 3 times now and replaced the ESP sensor but the unit failed about an hour later.  The most recent time they came out they said the door on the back of the hopper was slightly open and that caused the unit to not come on.  It came on only to turn off for good an hour later.  I've never even come close to that door so I'm doubting that was really the cause.  The door is completely shut now and the unit still won't come on.  I've had it with the unit and dealing with this particular dealer.  I've asked for a refund on the Harman and am waiting on a response from the dealer. I'd like to mention the name of the dealer here to warn others but I'd rather not go that route at this time.
> 
> It's really a shame because I loved the idea of having this unit run properly and run on clean wood as opposed to oil.  I guess it wasn't meant to be.  I also wonder if it's not so much the unit itself but the dealers inability to diagnose these issues.  I've never been able to contact anyone from Harman directly to see if they could diagnose any of the problems.  The dealer has had over a year to get these issues resolved and I'm still left with a piece of metal that is just taking up space in my basement.  I'd say I've been patient enough.  I'll wait to hear the dealers response to my demand for a refund.  If they don't honor this request, I'll be taking legal action.


 

Wow - What a horror story ! 

Given your description, I can't believe they didn't replace the control board.  Thanks again for sharing your experiences.  I hope you get satisfaction. Please consider posting again when this comes to a conclusion.
Good Luck !
 VT_Bubba


----------



## VT_Bubba

timberframe said:


> I have five radiant floor heat zones that I would need to keep warm. We are currently burning 6 ton of pellets in two differnet stoves to keep that space warm. Will the Harman Hydroflex 60 be sufficiant? We do have a backup 60.000 BTU gas boiler that seems to be sufficiant when we run it to keep up with the five zones.


 

Hi Timberframe,

I'm not very knowledgeable on how to size radiant loads and radiation. I was hoping one of the professionals on the forum would answer your question. It's not as simple as counting how many zones. If you can heat your space with a 60KBTU Gas Boiler, then you should be able to heat your space with a 60KBTU Oil, wood, or Pellet Boiler. The other thing to consider is domestic hot water, is that part of your heating load ? In summary, I see the HF60 as a 30-50KBTU boiler. If you have the physical space in your boiler room, the PB105 would certainly handle your load.

VT_Bubba


----------



## VT_Bubba

Today's Topic ==> HF60 Auto vs Manual Mode

Background - When I installed my HF60, I connected the HF60 "Dump Zone relay" in parallel to my Zone1 thermostat (1st Floor BaseBoard Heating Loop). My thinking was, if the HF60 would ever go into "Over-Heat", for any reason, the "HF60 Dump Zone" would be activated and the Circulator on Zone1 would lower the boiler temp until the "Over-Heat" condition was removed. My dump zone rarely activates in Auto-Mode, but does activate occasionally for a few seconds, usually from an over-shoot when I'm burning Hardwood Pellets at a higher feed rate and no water is being circulated (With all Zones turned-off the boiler can over-shoot the Max Temp setting on the way up...). If you read my posts on this forum, you know that I have always run my HF60 in "Auto-Mode" and my HF60 may have 5-25 ignitions everyday. Note that I have never had any ignition problems on my HF60 !

My Manual Mode Story - Last weekend was very cold here in VT (below zero). The house programmable thermostats were set for weekend heating of all zones at 70F and Grandma_Bubba was busy cleaning, doing laundry, baking Xmas Cookies, and running the dishwasher all day. VT_Bubba was hiding-out in the basement, cleaning the woodstove, hoping to avoid the GrandaMa_Bubba "Holiday-Honey-Do-List", when I noticed the HF60 thrashing On\Off with all of the various zone activity. This constant "Auto-Igniting" made me ponder if it might be better to run the HF60 in "Manual Mode", as many users do, just to avoid this constant short-cycling on the HF60 boiler. However, I didn't know if the "HF60 Dump Zone" would activate when the HF60 was in Manual Mode, as the Harman Manual is not very clear on those details. So, I switched to Manual Mode and watched the boiler operate under the various scenarios, it worked awesome ! In Manual Mode, when the HF60 rises to the "Max Temp" setting, instead of slowly shutting down, like in Auto-Mode, it just kept the fire idling by occasionally feeding a few pellets to keep the fire alive. With no water circulating, the HF60 will eventually drift into "Over-Heat" and activate my Zone1 Dump for a couple minutes, which brings the boiler temperature back down. So, I ran the HF60 for 2 days in manual mode and it worked very nicely ! I did consume noticeably more pellets during Manual Mode operation.

In summary, I think "Manual Mode" would be the preferred operating mode, when it's really cold and for installations where the HF60 is a little under sized for the house. Running in Manual Mode keeps the boiler at "Max Temp" all the time and eliminates the long, slow recovery time when the HF60 must go through an Auto-Ignition Cycle. It's also better for the boiler in terms of minimizing low temperature operation, which can cause condensing in the boiler (creosote) and additional thermal stress to the steel.

For my installation, I will continue to use "Auto-Mode" most of the winter, only because my basement wood stove still provides much of the homes base-load heating and I save significant pellets using the programmable set-back thermostats during the weekdays and at night.  I also like that HF60 is frequently shut-down, which makes it easy for me to scrape the burn-pot 1-2 times a day, without ever touching the controls. In manual mode, there is always a fire going.

However, Manual Mode may be the way to go for those folks that have large heating needs and no other heating source in the house. I still have 1.5 yrs of firewood available, but once that is consumed, I see more pellets and "Manual Mode" as my future solution.

Hoping this helps others get the most out of their HF60's.....

VT_Bubba


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## velvetfoot

Hi again.  Well, my wife has said that she wants the 2nd floor warmer than it was last year, so we've been running the oil boiler some.  A small pellet boiler could be ideal to heat the 2nd floor, and maybe the basement  too if I ever make it habitable. 

On another note, doesn't a dump zone have to operate in the event of a power failure?  Oh wait, it's a pellet boiler so maybe it's not that much of a factor?


----------



## heaterman

From the service work we have encountered I have to say the Harmon/Heatilator/PB series is kind of spotty. Let's just say they seem to be more of a "hands on" unit than I would like to be responsible for. 
Not bashing them at all. They just are what they are which is a product conceived and designed to serve as a back up, not primary heat source IMHO.


----------



## VT_Bubba

velvetfoot said:


> Hi again.  Well, my wife has said that she wants the 2nd floor warmer than it was last year, so we've been running the oil boiler some.  A small pellet boiler could be ideal to heat the 2nd floor, and maybe the basement  too if I ever make it habitable.
> 
> On another note, doesn't a dump zone have to operate in the event of a power failure?  Oh wait, it's a pellet boiler so maybe it's not that much of a factor?


 

Hi Velvetfoot, long time no chat....

Yes, pellet boilers do not necessarily require "Dump Zones", because the fire can be controlled and stops during a power outage. However, IMHO any wood boiler better have a "Dump Zone" or it's a unsafe install. The HF60 Dump-Zone is nice, because the control relay is built right into the unit and works in both Auto and Manual Mode (Harman made it real easy and No Cost at install time).

BTW - I have basically been using my HF60 to heat my 2nd floor and DHW (and the whole house, when I'm to lazy to throw another log on the wood stove...). However, after using the boiler for a few years now, and my recent experiment with using manual mode, I'm pretty convinced this little boiler can heat my whole house when my wood pile is gone. I will always have and burn some wood, but the HF60 will be doing 98% of my heating when this wood pile is gone.

Happy Holidays to all !

VT_Bubba


----------



## VT_Bubba

heaterman said:


> From the service work we have encountered I have to say the Harmon/Heatilator/PB series is kind of spotty. Let's just say they seem to be more of a "hands on" unit than I would like to be responsible for.
> Not bashing them at all. They just are what they are which is a product conceived and designed to serve as a back up, not primary heat source IMHO.


 

Hi Heaterman,

I basically agree with you. They are what they are....

I have had a pretty good experience with my HF60, but would love a more rugged Pellet Boiler if the economics made sense. The problem was, when I looked at my current home constraints (very limited space available in my boiler room and NO Chimney), there was NO Other Boiler available that matched the economics\business case of the HF60 given my circumstances.  I also have a very good, fully automatic back-up system, so ultimate reliability was not as important for my pellet boiler.

I challenge you to name another Pellet Boiler that can easily be Installed by a DIY'er using direct vent (no Chimney), can heat 1900sqft in below zero weather at > 90% efficiency, and can be fully paid for in 4 Heating Seasons !

Because that is why I purchased the HF60 and have still NOT found a better solution given those constraints and objectives. I know some have had there share of problems, but I have no regrets so far. 

VT_Bubba


----------



## Doeboy611

We are having some problems with our Hydroflex 60.  This is the first season that we have used our Hydroflex 60 and up until about a week ago we were pretty pleased with its performance.  Since then the unit has not been able to provide the output needed to bring our home up to heat and maintain the temperature despite the temperature in the 30's and low 40's.  The last load of pellets (Energex) were a major step down from the Okanagan pellets we had used previously - creating a lot of ash noticed during cleanings.

The unit starts up and appears to be running normally, but when put under a single zone load the boiler temps hover in the 140-150 degree area (min setting = 160, max =180) eventually falling to 140 when the oil fired boiler comes on to boost temps and shuts down after it has done its job. The pellet circulator continues to work and temps fall back to the 140-150 level and eventually needs another boost from the oil burner. Even though there is a demand for more heat the pellet feed does not respond to the demand by supplying more pellets to the firepot.  Instead the feed falters - it does come on, but not enough for a high sustained burn in an attempt to meet the btu demand.

I suspect that the temp sensor may be gunked up or has outright failed.  Has anyone else had a problem like this?  Our latest supply of pellets are Cubex - because of the existing problem it's difficult to judge their performance. 

Thanks, Will


----------



## iceguy4

Doeboy611 said:


> We are having some problems with our Hydroflex 60.  This is the first season that we have used our Hydroflex 60 and up until about a week ago we were pretty pleased with its performance.  Since then the unit has not been able to provide the output needed to bring our home up to heat and maintain the temperature despite the temperature in the 30's and low 40's.  The last load of pellets (Energex) were a major step down from the Okanagan pellets we had used previously - creating a lot of ash noticed during cleanings.
> 
> The unit starts up and appears to be running normally, but when put under a single zone load the boiler temps hover in the 140-150 degree area (min setting = 160, max =180) eventually falling to 140 when the oil fired boiler comes on to boost temps and shuts down after it has done its job. The pellet circulator continues to work and temps fall back to the 140-150 level and eventually needs another boost from the oil burner. Even though there is a demand for more heat the pellet feed does not respond to the demand by supplying more pellets to the firepot.  Instead the feed falters - it does come on, but not enough for a high sustained burn in an attempt to meet the btu demand.
> 
> I suspect that the temp sensor may be gunked up or has outright failed.  Has anyone else had a problem like this?  Our latest supply of pellets are Cubex - because of the existing problem it's difficult to judge their performance.
> 
> Thanks, Will


 Can we  assume you have thoroughly cleaned the unit? It seems your problem started when you introduced a dirty pellet.   does the flame look "vigorous"?   you say"Instead the feed falters"   explain...does it get slower?  Did you putz with the feed rate?  Feed rate can be adjusted (in spite of what some members say) to compensate for pellet quality.    Flame lazy...more then likely an air leak...check with cigarette smoke around doors  ect.   any codes?


----------



## VT_Bubba

Doeboy611 said:


> We are having some problems with our Hydroflex 60.  This is the first season that we have used our Hydroflex 60 and up until about a week ago we were pretty pleased with its performance.  Since then the unit has not been able to provide the output needed to bring our home up to heat and maintain the temperature despite the temperature in the 30's and low 40's.  The last load of pellets (Energex) were a major step down from the Okanagan pellets we had used previously - creating a lot of ash noticed during cleanings.
> 
> The unit starts up and appears to be running normally, but when put under a single zone load the boiler temps hover in the 140-150 degree area (min setting = 160, max =180) eventually falling to 140 when the oil fired boiler comes on to boost temps and shuts down after it has done its job. The pellet circulator continues to work and temps fall back to the 140-150 level and eventually needs another boost from the oil burner. Even though there is a demand for more heat the pellet feed does not respond to the demand by supplying more pellets to the firepot.  Instead the feed falters - it does come on, but not enough for a high sustained burn in an attempt to meet the btu demand.
> 
> I suspect that the temp sensor may be gunked up or has outright failed.  Has anyone else had a problem like this?  Our latest supply of pellets are Cubex - because of the existing problem it's difficult to judge their performance.
> 
> Thanks, Will



Hi Will,

I hate to agree with IceGuy4 (Humor Intended...), but a complete cleaning is in order here.  I would even pull the probe above the exhaust fan and clean it with soap and water. IceGuy4 makes fun of me when I say that I could tell a difference in pellets with my small little HF60, just by watching how the boiler responds to the loading.   Different pellets do burn differently in different stoves\boilers.  I can truly tell a good pellet from a crappy pellet and I'm now willing to spend another $20-25/ton for the good stuff.

By the way, watch out for the crust in the burn-pot from those Cubex (clogging the air holes in the burn pot).  They do burn hot, but I disliked the crust that forms in the burn pot (scrape frequently my friend).

One more suggestion - Read my post above on Auto vs Manual Mode !   Manual mode rocks when you are having trouble getting enough heat out of the boiler.  I always use manual mode now, when it's real cold.  I use auto mode in mild weather, which cuts down on the pellet consumption.

In summary, solid advice from IceGuy4 !  Full Cleaning, try different pellets, then try cranking up the feed rate on the crappy pellets.  Don't be afraid to mix some good pellets with the crappy pellets, to help use-up those crappy pellets.

I hope you will share what you learn with the forum !

VT_Bubba


----------



## iceguy4

VT_Bubba said:


> IceGuy4 makes fun of me when I say that I could tell a difference in pellets with my small little HF60



I think it has been determined ...I'm a "numb #@^                       (#@^  =you know what).   
               As I get to know MY boiler better , I do see the "nuances" of different pellets.   Lately...Pellington's (described as garage absorbent by some) ...  Burn  kinda nice but leave a crust on burn pot ...  Oh  yea   I get ash as a byproduct ( those S.O.B.'s put ash in their pellets...LOL)     I canNOT  tell the difference in flame, heat, consumption, or ANY of the indicators others are able to "feel".  Personally I think its because I have one of those "smart" stoves   Unfortunately,  lately its not "smart" enough to light its self..  Hence manual operation.

     Are there differences between heat output/ash between pellet brands?   NO doubt.   does my boiler compensate?   "you bet-cha"  For me none of these differences rise to the level of overriding my price considerations, making my pellet choices EASY-smeasy!
    To the OP, Please keep us in the "loop"....we like to learn.


----------



## VT_Bubba

iceguy4 said:


> I think it has been determined ...I'm a "numb #@^                       (#@^  =you know what).
> As I get to know MY boiler better , I do see the "nuances" of different pellets.   Lately...Pellington's (described as garage absorbent by some) ...  Burn  kinda nice but leave a crust on burn pot ...  Oh  yea   I get ash as a byproduct ( those S.O.B.'s put ash in their pellets...LOL)     I canNOT  tell the difference in flame, heat, consumption, or ANY of the indicators others are able to "feel".  Personally I think its because I have one of those "smart" stoves   Unfortunately,  lately its not "smart" enough to light its self..  Hence manual operation.
> 
> Are there differences between heat output/ash between pellet brands?   NO doubt.   does my boiler compensate?   "you bet-cha"  For me none of these differences rise to the level of overriding my price considerations, making my pellet choices EASY-smeasy!
> To the OP, Please keep us in the "loop"....we like to learn.


 
IceGuy4,

All joking a side, I think the big difference between your PB105 and my HF60 is the size of the boiler and the spare heating capacity you have with the larger PB105 (almost 2X the water capacity in a PB105). I bet if you were trying to heat 2X the house with your PB105, you would see more effect. Especially during an "Auto" ignition cycle when the house is calling for full heat (not as bad in manual mode, because the boiler is already fired and can respond to the cold zones pretty quickly).

I have 3 friends with PB105's, many use good pellets in the dead of winter just to minimize cleaning during high consumption months, and then use the "shoulder pellets" when the consumption is lower.  It's all about how convenient and how often the cleanings are required.  Burning more pellets means more cleaning. Dirty pellets means more cleaning.

BTW - The crust in the burn pot from many Hardwood Pellets is not a big issue if it is scrapped daily.  If the crust is not cleaned regularly, it blocks the air flow in the burn pot and the boiler spirals into a rich flame and soots-up the entire boiler.  It is also the root-cause of most "Warped and Bubbled" burn pots and most "Auto Ignition problems" too.  When you see the new PB105 Burn Pots you will see the design changes to keep the air-flow open and stop the hot spots caused by the crust blocking the air flow in the burn pot.

For me, I'm exceptionally lazy and the extra cleaning from the crappy pellets is just not worth the $20 x 3tons = $60yr.  I guess my laziness overrides my cheapness...

VT_Bubba


----------



## Mr._Graybeard

VT_Bubba said:


> BTW - The crust in the burn pot from many Hardwood Pellets is not a big issue if it is scrapped daily.  If the crust is not cleaned regularly, it blocks the air flow in the burn pot and the boiler spirals into a rich flame and soots-up the entire boiler.  It is also the root-cause of most "Warped and Bubbled" burn pots and most "Auto Ignition problems" too.  When you see the new PB105 Burn Pots you will see the design changes to keep the air-flow open and stop the hot spots caused by the crust blocking the air flow in the burn pot.
> 
> VT_Bubba



I'll rebut that point about the burnpot bubble. I think the bubble comes from repeated "cold" ignition cycles that the boiler goes through in auto mode. A lot of boiler burnpots have begun to warp almost immediately after being put to use -- during the shoulder season, when the on/off cycle happens the most. Most stove users don't burn that way, so that's why the boiler is more susceptible.

I think Harman came up with the dirty burnpot scenario because they didn't know what to make of the situation. But after dropping 9 grand on the boiler and installation, believe me, I was fastidious about keeping it clean. My first burnpot was warping by the end of November. Harman installed a second one this summer, and it started warping again before the cold started setting in. I just noticed a few cracks forming this month.

This season, I'm armed with the service bulletin and the part number for the new burnpot design. I may also start burning like Iceguy, in manual mode, to keep ignition cycles to a minimum.

That's my theory, and I'm stickin' with it.


----------



## iceguy4

VT_Bubba said:


> For me, I'm exceptionally lazy and the extra cleaning from the crappy pellets is just not worth the $20 x 3tons = $60yr.  I guess my laziness overrides my cheapness...


   Bubba,
  This year I poised to burn 11 tons.  Next year with my mom living in  the 2nt building I'm heating, I suspect it will be slightly higher(new windows installed last week and other improvements may offset the higher temps she will require).   Fingers crossed 
   Using your numbers (not sure just how much better pellet I can get for the $20 you quote)...$220.  is almost  4X the monies you save..  Now I have no doubt a better pellet will be a comfortable switch, and I suspect  22 ton  loads will be in my future to achieve your numbers    

            I can say with absolute certainty, NO one  on this board is tighter with a buck then ME!!   Moths  come out of my wallet when I open it...the presidents on my bills ware sunglasses...  People who know me say" he's tighter then bark on a tree....I digress


----------



## iceguy4

Mr._Graybeard said:


> I think the bubble comes from repeated "cold" ignition cycles that the boiler goes through in auto mode


  Personally I think this assessment is "spot on"      .....Time will tell...   BTW   I'm at 9+ tons burned in my "newest design" burnpot... as of last weeks inspection...pristine!!   ALL pellets were burned by running in "manual"


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## VT_Bubba

Mr._Graybeard said:


> I'll rebut that point about the burnpot bubble. I think the bubble comes from repeated "cold" ignition cycles that the boiler goes through in auto mode. A lot of boiler burnpots have begun to warp almost immediately after being put to use -- during the shoulder season, when the on/off cycle happens the most. Most stove users don't burn that way, so that's why the boiler is more susceptible.
> 
> I think Harman came up with the dirty burnpot scenario because they didn't know what to make of the situation. But after dropping 9 grand on the boiler and installation, believe me, I was fastidious about keeping it clean. My first burnpot was warping by the end of November. Harman installed a second one this summer, and it started warping again before the cold started setting in. I just noticed a few cracks forming this month.
> 
> This season, I'm armed with the service bulletin and the part number for the new burnpot design. I may also start burning like Iceguy, in manual mode, to keep ignition cycles to a minimum.
> 
> That's my theory, and I'm stickin' with it.


 
Mr_Graybeard,

I won't argue that Auto-Ignition may be a factor, and will also say 1 of my PB105 friends burn's at low feed rate and never "Auto shut's down", and still has his original 3yr old Burn-Pot with no cracks or bubbles.  The other two PB105's have been through 3-4 burn-pots in about 3yrs.  One PB105 user made his Auto-Ignition problems 100% go away, by scrapping the burn-pot daily when using Crusty Hdw Pellets. He is convinced that blocked air holes causes ignition problems and creates hot spots on the burn port, where all of the air goes through the few open holes.

The new PB105 Burn pot I was able to see, looked like Stainless Steel, was larger in size with much thicker metal, and had larger holes and slots for air flow. Two of the three PB105's now have the new burn-pot this season

The funny thing is, I primarily use Auto mode on my HF60 with 15-25 starts a day, and see no signs of cracks or bubbles.  However, I do scrape everyday, especially if I'm burning a crusty pellet.

VT_Bubba


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## heaterman

All the maintenance and issues listed above are why we don't sell Harmon. The extra couple grand for something like a Windhager is well worth it. 
Sorry you guys are having these problems but from what I have seen servicing these things for various owners around here they are not a good investment. Too many headaches, too much maintenance. Alternative fuels save you money but neither the end user or us as a service company want to be "married" to the piece of equipment.

Not trying to start a fight over brands here but the Austrian made pellet boilers are light years ahead of anything made here in the USA. 
I post this just for people who may be considering going with a pellet boiler, not to bash someone for the product choice they made. Heck.....how would you know even if you went to see a bunch of brands and just listened to the salesman. 
The difference is not easily seen unless you have a good understanding about how a pellet boiler works.


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## iceguy4

VT_Bubba said:


> The funny thing is, I primarily use Auto mode on my HF60 with 15-25 starts a day, and see no signs of cracks or bubbles.


 Your post seems to bolster the idea that hot and cold cycles may be the key to this problem,  I think you not having problems could be linked to the fact you burn so few pellets.


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## iceguy4

heaterman said:


> All the maintenance and issues listed above are why we don't sell Harmon. The extra couple grand for something like a Windhager is well worth it.


  I for one applaud you and your "high standards"               I love to buy the best product....I can afford


Some of us have to settle for.... "oats that have been through the horse"


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## Mr._Graybeard

If only Windhager had a dealer within a couple hours' drive of me, I certainly would have considered the BioWin. But I can't see making such a big investment without an adequate resource for service. My Harman retailer in Wisconsin is Earth Sense, and they've been very supportive. I would buy from them again in a heartbeat. To me it's the quality of the dealer that made my decision as much as the quality of the product.

 And aside from the burnpot issue, my PB105 has been a workhorse. I've burned at least 12 tons of pellets since it was installed in 2012, saving nearly $2500 on heating. I'm quite pleased with it.


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## Mr._Graybeard

VT_Bubba said:


> Mr_Graybeard,
> 
> I won't argue that Auto-Ignition may be a factor, and will also say 1 of my PB105 friends burn's at low feed rate and never "Auto shut's down", and still has his original 3yr old Burn-Pot with no cracks or bubbles.  The other two PB105's have been through 3-4 burn-pots in about 3yrs.  One PB105 user made his Auto-Ignition problems 100% go away, by scrapping the burn-pot daily when using Crusty Hdw Pellets. He is convinced that blocked air holes causes ignition problems and creates hot spots on the burn port, where all of the air goes through the few open holes.
> 
> The new PB105 Burn pot I was able to see, looked like Stainless Steel, was larger in size with much thicker metal, and had larger holes and slots for air flow. Two of the three PB105's now have the new burn-pot this season
> 
> The funny thing is, I primarily use Auto mode on my HF60 with 15-25 starts a day, and see no signs of cracks or bubbles.  However, I do scrape everyday, especially if I'm burning a crusty pellet.
> 
> VT_Bubba



Hi Bubba,
I should have demanded that I have the original pot replaced with the new design, but my retailer had this one in stock, and it was strictly a warrantied job. I thought I'd let him do his thing without kibbitzing too much. 

At first I thought Burnpot No. 2 was doing pretty well, although a little bump formed fairly quickly once the heating season started. It's still smaller than the bubble on the original pot. But a couple weeks ago I noticed some small cracks forming. (I guess I should add these experiences to the "burnpot bubble" thread in the pellet forum.) I believe Harman says a little warpage is acceptable, but it shouldn't crack.

I notice that Harman has added slits in the "new" pot where the bubble usually forms. I would surmise that it's to accommodate expansion of the burnpot surface when the igniter is working. Good move on their part.

I confess I don't scrape the pot every day (more like every other day), but I try to avoid really dirty pellets. I was burning Somersets at the start of this heating season when the bubble formed. And every time I clean out the pot I take the plate off the ash trap, clean it out and shine an LED flashlight into the trap so the light can reveal any blocked holes. I can't say I've ever seen one, really. The airflow keeps them pretty clean. Anything that looks suspicious, I clean out with a pick.


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## Doeboy611

VT_Bubba said:


> Hi Will,
> 
> I hate to agree with IceGuy4 (Humor Intended...), but a complete cleaning is in order here.  I would even pull the probe above the exhaust fan and clean it with soap and water. IceGuy4 makes fun of me when I say that I could tell a difference in pellets with my small little HF60, just by watching how the boiler responds to the loading.   Different pellets do burn differently in different stoves\boilers.  I can truly tell a good pellet from a crappy pellet and I'm now willing to spend another $20-25/ton for the good stuff.
> 
> By the way, watch out for the crust in the burn-pot from those Cubex (clogging the air holes in the burn pot).  They do burn hot, but I disliked the crust that forms in the burn pot (scrape frequently my friend).
> 
> One more suggestion - Read my post above on Auto vs Manual Mode !   Manual mode rocks when you are having trouble getting enough heat out of the boiler.  I always use manual mode now, when it's real cold.  I use auto mode in mild weather, which cuts down on the pellet consumption.
> 
> In summary, solid advice from IceGuy4 !  Full Cleaning, try different pellets, then try cranking up the feed rate on the crappy pellets.  Don't be afraid to mix some good pellets with the crappy pellets, to help use-up those crappy pellets.
> 
> I hope you will share what you learn with the forum !
> 
> VT_Bubba




Thanks for the insight from all.  It turns out that it was an air leak in the pellet bin that was the culprit.  The unit was detecting a lack of negative pressure and was turning down or off the pellet feed auger - it's hard to burn pellets (and get heat) if they aren't being delivered!  I ended up applying silicon to the sheet metal joints on the back of the unit, gave it overnight to dry out and it fired right up the next morning.  Before discovering the source of the problem, everything on the unit had been cleaned thoroughly - temp probe, exhaust pipe, fines trap, burn pot and heat exchanger - I am getting pretty familiar with the unit...

The Cubex pellets seem to be pretty good compared to the Energex, but I appreciate the heads up on the scraping as there is a noticeable difference in the softwood - hardwood pellets and build up of more "clinkers" in the burnpot is one of them.  I did read the post on the manual operation - tried it but with the air leak, it didn't help much.  Still lots of winter to go - thanks again for the assistance.

Will


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## Doeboy611

VT_Bubba said:


> Hi Will,
> 
> I hate to agree with IceGuy4 (Humor Intended...), but a complete cleaning is in order here.  I would even pull the probe above the exhaust fan and clean it with soap and water. IceGuy4 makes fun of me when I say that I could tell a difference in pellets with my small little HF60, just by watching how the boiler responds to the loading.   Different pellets do burn differently in different stoves\boilers.  I can truly tell a good pellet from a crappy pellet and I'm now willing to spend another $20-25/ton for the good stuff.
> 
> By the way, watch out for the crust in the burn-pot from those Cubex (clogging the air holes in the burn pot).  They do burn hot, but I disliked the crust that forms in the burn pot (scrape frequently my friend).
> 
> One more suggestion - Read my post above on Auto vs Manual Mode !   Manual mode rocks when you are having trouble getting enough heat out of the boiler.  I always use manual mode now, when it's real cold.  I use auto mode in mild weather, which cuts down on the pellet consumption.
> 
> In summary, solid advice from IceGuy4 !  Full Cleaning, try different pellets, then try cranking up the feed rate on the crappy pellets.  Don't be afraid to mix some good pellets with the crappy pellets, to help use-up those crappy pellets.
> 
> I hope you will share what you learn with the forum !
> 
> VT_Bubba


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## SmokeEater

Mr._Graybeard said:


> I'll rebut that point about the burnpot bubble. I think the bubble comes from repeated "cold" ignition cycles that the boiler goes through in auto mode. A lot of boiler burnpots have begun to warp almost immediately after being put to use -- during the shoulder season, when the on/off cycle happens the most. Most stove users don't burn that way, so that's why the boiler is more susceptible.
> 
> I think Harman came up with the dirty burnpot scenario because they didn't know what to make of the situation. But after dropping 9 grand on the boiler and installation, believe me, I was fastidious about keeping it clean. My first burnpot was warping by the end of November. Harman installed a second one this summer, and it started warping again before the cold started setting in. I just noticed a few cracks forming this month.
> 
> This season, I'm armed with the service bulletin and the part number for the new burnpot design. I may also start burning like Iceguy, in manual mode, to keep ignition cycles to a minimum.
> 
> That's my theory, and I'm stickin' with it.


I have an older PB105 and have put about 25 tons of pellets through it all in auto mode.  I have never run or started the boiler in manual and have no sign of burnpot bubble.


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## Mr._Graybeard

It's just my theory, Jimmy -- if you did a poll of all PB105 owners, it may be that only a small minority ever had bubble damage in the burnpot. I don't think Harman has acknowledged a widespread problem, although the repeated burnpot redesigns suggest something is going on.

I didn't mean to hijack this thread. The idea that the bubble was the result of spotty maintenance just got a rise out of me.


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## SmokeEater

Mr._Graybeard said:


> It's just my theory, Jimmy -- if you did a poll of all PB105 owners, it may be that only a small minority ever had bubble damage in the burnpot. I don't think Harman has acknowledged a widespread problem, although the repeated burnpot redesigns suggest something is going on.
> 
> I didn't mean to hijack this thread. The idea that the bubble was the result of spotty maintenance just got a rise out of me.


I like it and though more of a hypothesis, I still like it.  It is strange that some, only some of the PB105's have a burnpot issue and yet many others do not.  I don't think the pellets used are involved at all, but some factor(s) in the operation of the boiler that lead to the problem.  I also can't see how the ignitor can cause this issue either.  More likely an concentrated burn at high temp in one part of the burnpot causing very unequal heating and therefore expansion stresses that have cause the metal to fatigue and fail (bubble and crack).


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