# BK Ashford 30 Install



## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 1, 2018)

My install was just completed Thursday! After 2 years of planning and waiting it is finally complete. Thanks so much for all the information and advice on this site. 

I had the stove taken apart completely and the two installers hand carried it inside. It ended up needing roof brackets which I didn't notify our roofers about. They just installed it 6mo ago. I freaked out for a minute. I called them and they said our warranty would not be voided but they would not cover anything related to the brackets.

Second, the installers spray painted the connector and got aerosol all through our house.  After the test burn (even with a 6hr burn outside) our house was reeking of aerosol and paint. The 3 girls all stayed the night in a hotel with most the windows wide open for 24hrs.

Third pain was the hearth board. I first unloaded it 2 weeks ago and I got a red corner pad from AJ hearth vs what is in the pic. They agreed to meet and swap the boards. The shape and tile are correct but the frame is a weird gray color, not the standard black! After so much $ I want everything right. I'm waiting to hear if they will take it back. I'm also thinking about adding a wall board. The wall is getting very warm close to min clearance.

Now with only two windows cracked, the stove room is up to 75°F at medium burn, most of the 2400sf is 72°F. Temp probe is about 12 O'Clock after 7hrs with a half load of ash.


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## begreen (Dec 1, 2018)

Looks good. Actually, with the lighter hearth tile color I don't mind the blue grey metal trim framing. It seems to work well. Black might be too strong a contrast taking the eye away from the stove.


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## MAD MARK (Dec 2, 2018)

I also like the colors in the pad. Good contrast. 

Too much black is overplayed these days.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 2, 2018)

Ah man, did AJ Hearth pay you guys to try changing my mind?!


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## vwmike (Dec 2, 2018)

Looks nice. How much chimney do you have outside ?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 2, 2018)

vwmike said:


> Looks nice. How much chimney do you have outside ?


It's 19.5ft outside with two 15° elbows to go around the roofline.  It's 50°F out and draft seems decent. There is some smoke spillage when it is opened and there are good flames going.


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 2, 2018)

#awesomehearthpad


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 2, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It's 19.5ft outside with two 15° elbows to go around the roofline.  It's 50°F out and draft seems decent. There is some smoke spillage when it is opened and there are good flames going.


A day like today is hard not to have some smoke spillage, the air is 100% moisture, low pressure to our north, and temps quite warm. When reloading try this, turn the air controller all the way open, then open the by-pass, wait about a minute then crack open the door and let it rest unlatched for a few seconds then open the door.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 2, 2018)

kennyp2339 said:


> A day like today is hard not to have some smoke spillage, the air is 100% moisture, low pressure to our north, and temps quite warm. When reloading try this, turn the air controller all the way open, then open the by-pass, wait about a minute then crack open the door and let it rest unlatched for a few seconds then open the door.


Yes, that's about the procedure I'm at now. I'm getting much better but still getting a little smoke. It seems to help if I try waiting until the firebox is mostly coals.


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## lsucet (Dec 2, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes, that's about the procedure I'm at now. I'm getting much better but still getting a little smoke. It seems to help if I try waiting until the firebox is mostly coals.


It is better if you go through the burn cycle before open the door but sometimes I know depending on the weather it needs to be reload. Give you sometime and you will get the hang of it. it can look like it is done but turning the dial up give you flames and heat again after so many hrs into the burn. It is amazing.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 2, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> 'm getting much better but still getting a little smoke. It seems to help if I try waiting until the firebox is mostly coals.


If you need to open it before you're down to coals, use kennyp2339's suggestion, but then close the primary air all the way before opening the door fully; You want as much draft as possible pulling in through the door. I'm not sure how much difference it will make, but it's gotta help to _some_ degree..


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 2, 2018)

Even now after 6hrs it's still getting some smoke in the house. I had to open a bunch of windows again. I have young kids in the house, I might need to shut it down until it gets colder 

Would it help to run it hotter? It was at about 5/10 most of today, now just increased it to 6.

Edit:
I checked it again and I think some smell is coming from the probe hole. There seems to be a mm or two slop. Is there some way to seal that off?


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## lsucet (Dec 2, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Even now after 6hrs it's still getting some smoke in the house. I had to open a bunch of windows again. I have young kids in the house, I might need to shut it down until it gets colder
> 
> Would it help to run it hotter? It was at about 5/10 most of today, now just increased it to 6.


Well regardless if get colder or not you will have the same situation cause it is the curing process. It is up to you if going through now or later. It will be the same.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 2, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Would it help to run it hotter?


Stack should have been hot, running it for hours at that air setting, so I have to think that 50* isn't cold enough to provide sufficient draft. You'll have to see how it runs later in the week when it gets cold there. Is that 19' just the outside chimney or is that from the stove top? You have two 90s, the elbows, and colder outside chimney so that will reduce your effective stack height some..


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 2, 2018)

Woody Stover said:


> Stack should have been hot, running it for hours at that air setting, so I have to think that 50* isn't cold enough to provide sufficient draft. You'll have to see how it runs later in the week when it gets cold there. Is that 19' just the outside chimney or is that from the stove top? You have two 90s, the elbows, and colder outside chimney so that will reduce your effective stack height some..



There is about 3' inside and 19.5' outside.  It doesn't smell like paint curing, more of a creosote type smell. And I'm pretty positive it is coming from the probe hole...


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## ratsrepus (Dec 2, 2018)

kennyp2339 said:


> A day like today is hard not to have some smoke spillage, the air is 100% moisture, low pressure to our north, and temps quite warm. When reloading try this, turn the air controller all the way open, then open the by-pass, wait about a minute then crack open the door and let it rest unlatched for a few seconds then open the door.



that works for me


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 2, 2018)

It seems completely fine now 1/3 full of coals. I think the lesson is not to stuff the whole firebox full when its warm out. It has to damp out the fire so hard when there is so much wood that is has almost no draft.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 3, 2018)

Again today, fine when running high, but anything below 7/10 seems to emit some odor. It's now in the 40's. Our 10mo old was coughing all last night. I'm starting to get concerned about the air quality and disappointed overall with this whole endeavor.

Sounds like possibility not a perfect draft and maybe a connector problem? There aren't even any screws connecting the DVL adapter to the stove outlet, just slipped on. Should they have also put some sealant on all the DVL?


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## SuperJ (Dec 3, 2018)

I would check your door alignment. The whole front face can be adjusted left right.  Mine was off a bit.
It will take a while for everything to cure, the legs and outer panels don't get as hot.  I would wait for the family to be out of the house.   And then load it up with some finer splits and let it rip for a couple hours.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 4, 2018)

SuperJ said:


> I would check your door alignment. The whole front face can be adjusted left right.  Mine was off a bit.
> It will take a while for everything to cure, the legs and outer panels don't get as hot.  I would wait for the family to be out of the house.   And then load it up with some finer splits and let it rip for a couple hours.


I checked the door earlier. It is nicely sealing even after breaking in. It is definitely exhaust coming from either the flue connector or probe hole. According to other posts, the connector seems to have fixed others problems.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 4, 2018)

I just called BK and they said it was definitely a draft issue. The easiest thing would be to add 3ft more chimney to meet the recommended height... should have played it safe during the install. 

The temp probe IS directly tapped into the combustor output, so smoke will come out there with poor draft.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 18, 2018)

So update for anyone still reading:

Ordered a 3ft chimney extension and mostly running it full open or 75% a few logs at a time. I tried wrapping a few layers of tinfoil around the probe which seemed to help, but on Sunday I tried a 60% setting with 5 med logs and once it damped down I saw two big puffs of smoke come out of all the dvl connections! Is that normal? 

Luckily it is now staying in the 30's or 20's which should help.  How much flue do you need to be able to run medium/low air without getting any smoke in the house? Does anyone have success with a BK wall exit? I'm wondering if my dreams of the 20hr+ are impossible for my setup. Having the window cracked is kind of detracting from the efficiency gained by the BK.


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## AlbergSteve (Dec 18, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> So update for anyone still reading:
> 
> Ordered a 3ft chimney extension and mostly running it full open or 75% a few logs at a time. I tried wrapping a few layers of tinfoil around the probe which seemed to help, but on Sunday I tried a 60% setting with 5 med logs and once it damped down I saw two big puffs of smoke come out of all the dvl connections! Is that normal?
> 
> Luckily it is now staying in the 30's or 20's which should help.  How much flue do you need to be able to run medium/low air without getting any smoke in the house? Does anyone have success with a BK wall exit? I'm wondering if my dreams of the 20hr+ are impossible for my setup. Having the window cracked is kind of detracting from the efficiency gained by the BK.


You could add and outside air kit, that would avoid leaving a window open.  Smoke from the pipe is not normal, ever.


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## Nigel459 (Dec 18, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> ...
> I saw two big puffs of smoke come out of all the dvl connections! Is that normal?
> ...


No that is not normal!

It sounds like you may indeed be on the edge of minimum draft requirement.

Hang in there. I've put in a few "new epa" stoves recently and they all have taken some time to figure out. One needed a damper due to too much draft, one is finicky and etc.

There are just so many factors involved it seems. You'll figure it out, keep at it, you'll get some solid advice here I'm sure


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 19, 2018)

AlbergSteve said:


> You could add and outside air kit, that would avoid leaving a window open.  Smoke from the pipe is not normal, ever.


I'm not sure the OAK would help. I'm not opening a window to get air to the stove, I'm trying to get fresh air to clear out the smoke!

I got my 3ft extension today but it was dented. Just ordered a replacement...


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## moresnow (Dec 19, 2018)

Ask BK about the OAK. I would think very possibly it could be a advantage in your situation to reduce/eliminate any competition for makeup air in a questionable draft situation. Maybe?

 Do you get the creo smell without the fans running? 

When you damp down are you going down just enough to extinguish flame? Starting with this (just below active flame) setting would be a good place to start for figuring your setup/configurations sweet spot (no stink/slow burn).

 Can you pull the probe and cover/seal the hole after getting up to cruising temp/setting? Might eliminate that spot as your smell producer. Easy test perhaps?

 I have had the best performance (smell free) by engaging the cat when appropriate according to the probe and running with the stat wide open for up to a half hour before turning it down just below active flame (3:30 position for my setup/draw,  roughly). It looks like a waste of fuel while burning wide open but really does not seem to be. Tough to be disciplined enough to watch it burn hot for up to a half hour!  Good for your pipe cleanliness/health and also for setting up the fresh load for a low burn. If very cold I can turn it down a bit more (3:00 maybe a tic less) to reduce the speed of my burn/wood melt! Any setting less than 2:45 will produce the smell and begin to stall my cat. All my setup can handle.

The last thing that really affected my setup for producing the smell is wet fuel. Mostly if trying to run low/slow to quickly on wet fuel. Nasty!

Your setup will require a custom procedure/setting that does not mirror anyone else's exactly. Something we all learn over time. Apologize if I am reiterating procedures/ideas you have already tried. Don't give up. This is likely a procedural issue you can work through. Good luck!


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## Ludlow (Dec 19, 2018)

Smoke filled our place for hours the first burn. I decided to take it up to nearly 700 STT to get it over with. This picture actually doesnt even show how bad it really was. But it is over with at least!


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 19, 2018)

moresnow said:


> Ask BK about the OAK. I would think very possibly it could be a advantage in your situation to reduce/eliminate any competition for makeup air in a questionable draft situation. Maybe?
> 
> Do you get the creo smell without the fans running?
> 
> ...



That sounds pretty similar to my situation. Around the 3:30 is where I'm trying to run overnight. But I get smell everytime. It's always warmed up beforehand for an hour or two on high. Last night I ran at 4:30 setting and there was very little (also 20 degrees out). I don't always have big logs that can last that long. It seems better for me if I warm the flue and then on the overnight load I turn it down earlier and let itself slowly damp the air. If its fully ignited, hot and try to turn down it will smoke hard.

The current supply is 2yr seasoned ash. It was 20% last winter.

I'm wondering if everyone gets this creosote smell at some setting or if that's particular to poor draft setups?


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## moresnow (Dec 19, 2018)

Sounds like your getting it figured out. Your wood quality sounds nice.

 The creo smell does not sound like a widespread issue. I helped put in 2 Princess models for buddies in the last couple years. Zero creo smell issues. One is a basement install with a through wall vent like yours, that can be finicky to start cold. He has no creo smell however. 

 I just reloaded and turned mine down at the 20 minute mark. YMMV on the hot burn time requirement. Whatever works best!

Did you? Or can you add more pipe up top easily? Maybe the 2- 90's and 15* offsets are limiting draft at your place . Anything is possible.


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## Woody Stover (Dec 19, 2018)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I'm wondering if everyone gets this creosote smell at some setting or if that's particular to poor draft setups?


From what I've read here about the 30, the better the draft, the less likely it is to be an issue. Obviously, straight up with no turns, and chimney inside the house where it stays warmer, is going to provide the best draft. That said, it's quite possible that when you put on the extra 3' of chimney, that may get you 'over the top.' Did you at any point consider keeping the chimney inside, and going through the roof?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 19, 2018)

Yes, I did search for an interior chimney solution.  There is no spot where the pipe can run through without horribly disrupting the rooms. Above this now is the master bed.  It would have a very inconvenient position in the room with the pipe running through. 

I can easily add more pipe to the top, that is the plan.  The downside is that it will have an increasingly awkward appearance to the outside of our modern suburban house.  Right now it is sticking up 6' above the roofline on the frontside of the house.

The 90, tee and 15's are definitely limiting the draft.  The BK manual calls for 25ft vertical rise with this setup while I'm currently at 22ft.  So I'll see how it runs when I return in town next year and add the 3ft.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 22, 2018)

I'm almost done curing the stove too which will make it easier to load up. It's hard to keep it hot! I got it almost up to the max cat probe mark but it eats through wood so quickly! I kept it there about 30 minutes and 4 new logs would get to coals in about 15min. Probably one more day and the paint smell should be gone.

It looks like my "safe" setting is about 4:30 which keeps it about the start of high with a full load. It's enough to last the night but it's a little hotter than needed for nighttime downstairs.

My new chimney pipe came in dent free so I'm hoping that will let me lower the min setting to 3:00 or lower, smoke free.


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## Matt93eg (Dec 23, 2018)

Hopefully you can get it corrected without much issue. My last stove was an EPA non-cat insert installed in an exterior masonry chimney with an insulated 6” SS liner. The liner was straight but only had 13ft. I had draft issues until it go 40 or below. Didn’t get really good draft until very low 30s or lower. I just had to deal with it.

Now I am in a different place with a free standing cat stove. 8” pipe straight up, not a single bend for 25ft. Draft is wicked to the point of low and slow not being an option. Had to end up installing a pipe damper.

To much draft seems to be easier to deal with than not enough.


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## ratsrepus (Dec 23, 2018)

Your set up pretty much like Iam.  I have about 20 ft vertical chimney, you can see the 45's. I have no draft issues what so ever. I exit the roof right at the peak, fact is I had to get a peak flashing when I did the install.  Id like a better draft like I have in the shop, Im straight up, no bends, but its sufficient.


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## ratsrepus (Dec 23, 2018)

sorry I meant to post a pic


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Dec 30, 2018)

ratsrepus said:


> Your set up pretty much like Iam.  I have about 20 ft vertical chimney, you can see the 45's. I have no draft issues what so ever. I exit the roof right at the peak, fact is I had to get a peak flashing when I did the install.  Id like a better draft like I have in the shop, Im straight up, no bends, but its sufficient.



That looks nice. How much horiz run do you have? The interior 45s and int chimney w/o any 15° elbows probably helps a lot. Do you have 20ft+ 3ft above the stove? That seems like you are at or above the recommended equivalent 15ft.


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## ratsrepus (Dec 30, 2018)

I think Im 18 ft total from the Tee givge or take a foot.  Thats what I needed,


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 6, 2019)

Ugh. Well my wife didn't want me to climb up on the roof to install the extra 3ft.  It's 35°F and the stove just kind of stalled and puffed at 4:30 position which previously I thought was safe.  It's been about 78-80°F inside today trying to keep it running at about 5:00 or higher. My wife is enjoying the temperature at least...


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## Woody Stover (Jan 6, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> my wife didn't want me to climb up on the roof to install the extra 3ft.


She will probably leave soon...


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 10, 2019)

Man, more issues. It's been running nicely this whole week. Especially since I'm onto my Norway maple stock seems to be lasting longer.

This morning I loaded about 30lbs of maple and went upstairs with the bypass open waiting for the lightoff. My wife came bursting in while I was in the shower and a lot of the house was filled with some new chemical/smoke type smell. The stove was just at medium temp by then.

I ended up closing the bypass and turning down the stove to "4 O clock", our minimum. Still after 30min or so it had reached close to the top of high which is unusual. As the flames slowed down the smell slowly improved.

Anyone know what's wrong? This is super frustrating and ruining our confidence in the stove.

This is what I was guessing:
-Door gasket leak (have not adjusted yet)
-Backpuffing due to low draft and wind during startup
-Other stove leak/exhaust

Might give BK cs a call later today...


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## vwmike (Jan 10, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Man, more issues. It's been running nicely this whole week. Especially since I'm onto my Norway maple stock seems to be lasting longer.
> 
> This morning I loaded about 30lbs of maple and went upstairs with the bypass open waiting for the lightoff. My wife came bursting in while I was in the shower and a lot of the house was filled with some new chemical/smoke type smell. The stove was just at medium temp by then.
> 
> ...



Was it a actually smoke or just smell?  Could be the paint on the pipe or stove still settling in. I was surprised how long after I would still get some smell when I got the pipe up to a high temp.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 10, 2019)

Definitely not pipe curing. I've been loading it all this week exactly the same way (and about 2 weeks before that). It smelled different too and was very strong. It started 5 or so minutes after the lightoff. We used to get pipe smell about 15 or 20 minutes on a high burn but it went away the first week.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 10, 2019)

The term "light-off" that you see on the forum refers to when the stove is up to temp, and you close the bypass; Then the combustor "lights off"...starts to burn the smoke, in other words.
So you lit a new load, then left the room?  Was the air wide open? How long was it going to be before you planned to get back to check the stove?
I stay within sight of the stove after a reload, until the stove is up to temp, bypass is closed, cat is lit and air has been reduced to my cruise setting. I mainly use my flue temp meter as I ramp the stove up to temp, along with frequent looks inside the fire box at the flue exit to see how much flame is going into the pipe. My aim is to keep the fire under control so that I don't overheat stove parts near the flue exit, or the pipe. I also have a stove top meter and cat meter, but the flue meter gives me the immediate feedback on what is currently happening in the box.
As soon as I see the new load catching and sending flame toward the flue exit, I start cutting the air in small steps until it's just 1/2 open, or a little more. I never want to see big flames exiting the fire box into the pipe.
The reason you have to stay on top of the burn when ramping up the stove is that no two loads will start the same. Variables include the type of wood (softer woods catch quickly, dense woods more slowly) how dry the wood is, how you packed the load, how cold it is outside which affects draft, and so on. Therefore it's not possible to just set the air at a particular level and expect the stove temp to increase at the same rate over a given length of time.  





ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> a lot of the house was filled with some new chemical/smoke type smell. The stove was just at medium temp by then. I ended up closing the bypass and turning down the stove to "4 O clock", our minimum. Still after 30min or so it had reached close to the top of high which is unusual.


I'd be willing to bet that you either smelled paint burning, or that you didn't thoroughly warm the flue sufficiently with your outside chimney before you walked away and it wasn't drawing well, and smoke escaped into the house.
The "chemical smell" may have been creo burning off the inside of the fire box with the new fire, but that doesn't seem likely if you had low draft...the fire wouldn't be hot enough to start burning creo off the box.
As for the higher temp (I assume you are talking cat probe temp,) maybe you had more wood burning by the time you turned it down (although this wouldn't happen if draft was weak.) Or the Norway Maple is burning differently.
Hang in there; Many folks don't know much about stoves when they buy their new BKs but they quickly learn once they start burning. You have to experiment and learn how the variables interplay.
BTW, did you get the extra 3' of chimney up there yet?


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## ratsrepus (Jan 10, 2019)

you will damage your stove if run very hot with the by pass open. baby sit the thing till its closed. Im sure it was a paint smell. I'm going to enroll you in blaze king school


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## Ludlow (Jan 10, 2019)

I'd feel like the fun has been sucked out at this point.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 10, 2019)

I mean guys. I can barely turn down the air setting without stalling the cat because of draft. I warm the flue up for 15-20 minutes before I touch the air setting. The cat temp was about 2/3 of the low range. The flue was at great temp and the draft was great while reloading.

It's the exact same procedure I've been using except the bypass was open for about 10min. We've done that once or twice already and have not had that problem. I've done several curing cycles running on high. Not sure how I could have suddenly have a huge plume of paint fumes running a typical load.

The temp always peaks out from the thermostat at the start of high. It was way higher than any load I've put in there at our 3/4 or 4:30 air setting. That includes many full loads with smaller logs.

And sorry, I mean flames lighting up, not cat lighting off.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 10, 2019)

I called BK and BKVP answered. Really nice and helpful. His immediate thought is a clogged spark arrestor. I should remove it completely.

I just did a dollar bill test and it fails easily in the top right corner. That's kind of what it seemed like. There could have been some leaking around the door seal of some smoke.

So I will readjust that, inspect the chimney and if the spark arrestor doesn't fix it I'll add the 3ft extension.


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## AlbergSteve (Jan 10, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> His immediate thought is a clogged spark arrestor. I should remove it completely.



If it's not required by code, remove it.


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## bholler (Jan 10, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I called BK and BKVP answered. Really nice and helpful. His immediate thought is a clogged spark arrestor. I should remove it completely.
> 
> I just did a dollar bill test and it fails easily in the top right corner. That's kind of what it seemed like. There could have been some leaking around the door seal of some smoke.
> 
> So I will readjust that, inspect the chimney and if the spark arrestor doesn't fix it I'll add the 3ft extension.


Is it a spark arrestor or just an animal screen?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 10, 2019)

bholler said:


> Is it a spark arrestor or just an animal screen?


Good question. Maybe just an animal screen. I can definitely tell the screen is black, don't know if it is clogged and pretty sure it can be removed.

Pic is from the install.


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## bholler (Jan 10, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Good question. Maybe just an animal screen. I can definitely tell the screen is black, don't know if it is clogged and pretty sure it can be removed.
> 
> Pic is from the install.


That is not a spark arrestor just a screen and a pretty large one at that.  If you have that clogged already there is something wrong


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 10, 2019)

bholler said:


> That is not a spark arrestor just a screen and a pretty large one at that.  If you have that clogged already there is something wrong


Yes agreed. Will find out soon. Would you put bets on the leaking door gasket?


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## Highbeam (Jan 10, 2019)

Any screen is a restriction. Remove it unless required by local code. 

Shut the bypass as soon as the cat meter climbs to the “active” line. Continuing to burn after that can start chimney fires and melt your bypass gasket retainers requiring cutting and welding to repair. Yikes! Once you repair your door gasket problem you can burn per the manual. After the bypass is closed you can go take a shower.


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## bholler (Jan 10, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Any screen is a restriction. Remove it unless required by local code.
> 
> Shut the bypass as soon as the cat meter climbs to the “active” line. Continuing to burn after that can start chimney fires and melt your bypass gasket retainers requiring cutting and welding to repair. Yikes! Once you repair your door gasket problem you can burn per the manual. After the bypass is closed you can go take a shower.


Or if you have birds or squirrels that like to make nests in chimneys.  We install them on almost all liners we do and the vast majority of the time they are fine.  He has had trouble with this install from the start I seriously doubt it is the screen.  I am betting more height will fix it.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 11, 2019)

bholler said:


> Is it a spark arrestor or just an animal screen? We install them on almost all liners we do and the vast majority of the time they are fine.


Animal/bird screen, and I don't leave home without it.  There are a couple here that rail against it..probably more prone to clog on their BKs.


ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I can definitely tell the screen is black, don't know if it is clogged and pretty sure it can be removed.


If you can't climb up there right now, go out in the yard with a pair of binoculars, you should be able to see how bad it is.
Thinking more about your weak draft, I'd say chances are pretty good that it may have been a back-puff; Box filled with wood smoke and some creo smoke burning off the box, then it ignited and pushed acrid smoke out of the stove. I agree with bholler, get that chimney section up there. Once the leaves come in you'll barely be able to see the missile silo strapped to your house.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 11, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Any screen is a restriction. Remove it unless required by local code.
> 
> Shut the bypass as soon as the cat meter climbs to the “active” line. Continuing to burn after that can start chimney fires and melt your bypass gasket retainers requiring cutting and welding to repair. Yikes! Once you repair your door gasket problem you can burn per the manual. After the bypass is closed you can go take a shower.



Yes, the issue is for reload. Since our draft is poor, sometimes it can be in the top of "low" cat temp range and it takes 5-10 minutes to heat up and light the new logs after a reload.  So we can close it immediately going forward if it is active.

I was concerned about getting the chimney warm with no flames going and getting smoke in the house.  In this case I watched it about 1 or 2 minutes and realized it would take at least 5 more minutes for the logs to light.  I'm not sure it is as much of a problem with our low draft situation that leaving the damper open will cause excessive draft.  When it is inactive it can sometimes take 15-20 minutes of flames with the bypass open before it is active, so this kind of heat does not sound unusual.  I usually close it immediately when it hits active (just out of impatience).

-->How would we know if the bypass gasket retainers are damaged? Can that be inspected easily?



Woody Stover said:


> Animal/bird screen, and I don't leave home without it.  There are a couple here that rail against it..probably more prone to clog on their BKs.
> If you can't climb up there right now, go out in the yard with a pair of binoculars, you should be able to see how bad it is.
> Thinking more about your weak draft, I'd say chances are pretty good that it may have been a back-puff; Box filled with wood smoke and some creo smoke burning off the box, then it ignited and pushed acrid smoke out of the stove. I agree with bholler, get that chimney section up there. Once the leaves come in you'll barely be able to see the missile silo strapped to your house.


\

I took a peak driving up the driveway this morning, the screen is very clear. Once I got 100' away it almost looks completely transparent. There is large hill at the top of the driveway and it is easy to see.  It is certainly a missile silo already. It will be upgrading to a full out Saturn V with the extension .  With that said, I agree that is very likely a backpuff incident.  It's the first time we've seen that with the air set to "high" during a startup.  All other incidents have been setting the air too low or too quickly. I did mention we had very high wind yesterday right?

I will repair the door tension as well this evening before the next burn.  Maybe I need to wait until the wind is low? Or do I need to buy a backdraft proof cap before I relight the stove?  My wife is very concerned about getting any more smoke in the house.  How confident are you guys that the draft will fix the problem?  Do most people with adequate draft have no backpuffing with any amount of wind?

Sucks to be missing out on this nice cool weather


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 16, 2019)

Hey guys.

So on Saturday I crawled up and added the 3ft. A little interesting lifting 5ft+cap on the edge of the roof 25ft up.

It has made a tremendous difference in draft! The 20° nights are helping too I'm sure. I've run several loads on 50% air setting and kept downstairs around 70°F all night with about 8lbs of maple vs barely staying active with 25lbs. I've had practically no creo smell even when it damps out the flame. I can see there is a nice white glow from the blast of air on the coals. The startup is much more of an aggressive blast on high and starts a flame after 5-10sec.

We had a very faint burning smell when keeping the air on high for about 1hr (bypass off). I couldn't smell it with the flu but my wife noticed. Now I'm being careful to keep the bypass closed whenever possible and I'm damping down the air on a large reload to keep flue temps cooler. The air is much more predictable and consistent.

Last night it started on low and looks to have burned through 6lbs even on 50%, likely it could have run lower than 50% if the stat is cooler.

Crossing my fingers but waiting to see how it performs in 40°F and up.

Thanks for all the tips guys.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 18, 2019)

Nope, so above 30°F I'm still getting creo smell. I've been trying 2/3 air setting, might have to bump it back up to 75% to be smoke free. It's certainly a bit better, but getting plenty creo smell.  Not sure if this is just a failed install or what. Emailing BK and seeing if they have any other suggestions. Maybe I need to cut a second hole to switch to 45's inside .  Either way this install got f'd up for sure. So disappointing. 

Should be drafting nicely on Sunday night at least. Calling for 4°F overnight.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 20, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Nope, so above 30°F I'm still getting creo smell. I've been trying 2/3 air setting, might have to bump it back up to 75% to be smoke free. It's certainly a bit better, but getting plenty creo smell.  Not sure if this is just a failed install or what. Emailing BK and seeing if they have any other suggestions. Maybe I need to cut a second hole to switch to 45's inside .  Either way this install got f'd up for sure. So disappointing.
> 
> Should be drafting nicely on Sunday night at least. Calling for 4°F overnight.


Sorry to read about your trevails, VCS.

I'd definitely go with the two 45's, and while you are at it, get some thin gasket and gasket cement to clog up any gaps you see in the pipe junctions.  Had to do that myself last month on a stove I installed.  I'd also take a short length of the gasket and tie a knot at the base of the temp probe that you described as having slop.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 20, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> Sorry to read about your trevails, VCS.
> 
> I'd definitely go with the two 45's, and while you are at it, get some thin gasket and gasket cement to clog up any gaps you see in the pipe junctions.  Had to do that myself last month on a stove I installed.  I'd also take a short length of the gasket and tie a knot at the base of the temp probe that you described as having slop.


Thanks for the empathy .  My stove pipe is very leaky. Its selkirk DSP with corrugated connections.  I bet if you have too many leaks coming in from the DSP that can't be good for the draft. For the probe I basically just need some type of thin high temp shim material to seal the gap. It was much better with some aluminum foil tightly wrapped but I think that could have burned and could have caused that bad chemical smell.

What do you recommend for gasket cement?  Something like Rutland black? Hopefully nothing that smells bad, we can't take any more chemicals polluting our house!

I'm looking at getting new DSP. Do you guys have any idea what they did here with the stove to chimney adapter? How are you supposed to go between a male dsp and male dsp adapter?


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 20, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Thanks for the empathy .  My stove pipe is very leaky. Its selkirk DSP with corrugated connections.  I bet if you have too many leaks coming in from the DSP that can't be good for the draft. For the probe I basically just need some type of thin high temp shim material to seal the gap. It was much better with some aluminum foil tightly wrapped but I think that could have burned and could have caused that bad chemical smell.
> 
> What do you recommend for gasket cement?  Something like Rutland black? Hopefully nothing that smells bad, we can't take any more chemicals polluting our house!
> 
> I'm looking at getting new DSP. Do you guys have any idea what they did here with the stove to chimney adapter? How are you supposed to go between a male dsp and male dsp adapter?


The knot of thin fiberglass gasket is to replace the aluminum foil job.  It won't fail like the foil did, when it gets hot.  

The Rutland stove cement I used didn't smell at all.

What is dsp?  Doesn't Seem Perfect?

I don't like the way the pipe fits in the stove.  First picture of that I noticed.  Hopefully experts will weigh in.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 20, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> The knot of thin fiberglass gasket is to replace the aluminum foil job.  It won't fail like the foil did, when it gets hot.
> 
> The Rutland stove cement I used didn't smell at all.
> 
> ...



DSP: Dual-wall stove pipe? That's what Selkirk calls it.  I'm not sure what you mean by a knot. There is maybe 1/16" of slop. Needs to be something tapered that can slowly wedge in. Could I just wrap a bead of Rutland cement around the firebox probe hole?

"Pipe fits in the stove" are you talking about the last picture I posted?  That is the entrance to the thimble.  They were supposed to bring Duravent DVL and showed up with all Selkirk.


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## Nigel459 (Jan 20, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> DSP: Dual-wall stove pipe? That's what Selkirk calls it.  I'm not sure what you mean by a knot. There is maybe 1/16" of slop. Needs to be something tapered that can slowly wedge in. Could I just wrap a bead of Rutland cement around the firebox probe hole?
> 
> "Pipe fits in the stove" are you talking about the last picture I posted?  That is the entrance to the thimble.  They were supposed to bring Duravent DVL and showed up with all Selkirk.


There is supposed to be a finishing band around the crimped part of the pipe at the top, if I recall correctly... mostly aesthetic but still, if they missed that detail...


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 20, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> DSP: Dual-wall stove pipe? That's what Selkirk calls it.  I'm not sure what you mean by a knot. There is maybe 1/16" of slop. Needs to be something tapered that can slowly wedge in. Could I just wrap a bead of Rutland cement around the firebox probe hole?
> 
> "Pipe fits in the stove" are you talking about the last picture I posted?  That is the entrance to the thimble.  They were supposed to bring Duravent DVL and showed up with all Selkirk.


Yes, thanks for pointing that out, it's the thimble connect.  Doesn't look right to my eye.  Male to male might be fine in some circles, but for stovepipe, should be male to female.

By knot, I mean just tie an overhand knot or a cinch knot (my boyscout training is failing me, the one that you pull on the long end and it gets tighter) in a short piece of small  round gasket and stuff a little of it into that 1/16" gap.  Some stove cement might be ok too, in combination with the gasket.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 21, 2019)

Nigel459 said:


> There is supposed to be a finishing band around the crimped part of the pipe at the top, if I recall correctly... mostly aesthetic but still, if they missed that detail...


There's a finishing band between the 90 and short pipe section.  They just cut some pipe to get the right length and mostly covered it up with that.  It doesn't really fit tight enough though and it certainly would be too loose around that last section. If I order two 45's I'm not sure if I need to buy a new chimney adapter or something with them? I don't see another female dsp version.  Don't understand why they would make a male dsp to male chimney.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 21, 2019)

It did great last night. Loaded full with N maple with 1/3 coals, set to 75% and 8hrs later it was 1/2 full of coals, 69 downstairs, 4 degrees outside. There was still some tiny amount of creo smell some point when we turned it down earlier in the evening.

I also hooked back up my central air fan and it did great spreading the heat around upstairs. Thinking of a way to have it come on intermittently.


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## MissMac (Jan 21, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It did great last night. Loaded full with N maple with 1/3 coals, set to 75% and 8hrs later it was 1/2 full of coals, 69 downstairs, 4 degrees outside. There was still some tiny amount of creo smell some point when we turned it down earlier in the evening.
> 
> I also hooked back up my central air fan and it did great spreading the heat around upstairs. Thinking of a way to have it come on intermittently.


If you get a smart thermostat like a Nest or Ecobee, you can program your furnace fan to come on x-minutes per hour (5 minute increments for options).  So say that you set it to run 35 minutes of every hour, if your furnace kicked on for 20 minutes, the fan would run an additional 15 minutes in that hour just circulating the air in your house.  If the furnace didn't come on, it would cycle on and off for 35/60 minutes.  I have one, and it's super slick.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 21, 2019)

@MissMac

Nice. I have the Sensi WIFI. Unfortunately there is no separate scheduling for the fan.  I was looking into jumping it to the heat signal which basically turns the hallway into a forced air furnace . As long as the fan only runs 1hr or so per night it should be efficient.

I'm crossing my fingers they will release a patch with fan scheduling.


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## Nigel459 (Jan 21, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> There's a finishing band between the 90 and short pipe section.  They just cut some pipe to get the right length and mostly covered it up with that.  It doesn't really fit tight enough though and it certainly would be too loose around that last section. If I order two 45's I'm not sure if I need to buy a new chimney adapter or something with them? I don't see another female dsp version.  Don't understand why they would make a male dsp to male chimney.


It looks like a “male” but it’s only a male outer wall, made to slide into a female outer wall above. The inner pipe is all male-down per standards. To connect to a chimney, you either use a chimney adapter, which has a female-down and is necessary for some chimneys-to-DSP; or, no adapter and a finishing band.

I did one this summer with no adapter and the finishing band tidied it up nicely.

It’s all laid out in the installation instructions that comes with most DSP sections/parts.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 21, 2019)

Nigel459 said:


> It looks like a “male” but it’s only a male outer wall, made to slide into a female outer wall above. The inner pipe is all male-down per standards. To connect to a chimney, you either use a chimney adapter, which has a female-down and is necessary for some chimneys-to-DSP; or, no adapter and a finishing band.
> I did one this summer with no adapter and the finishing band tidied it up nicely.
> It’s all laid out in the installation instructions that comes with most DSP sections/parts.


I think @webby3650 has posted about a particular adapter (appliance connector) at the flue collar that is supposed to seal very nicely, but I don't know how you assure that it would work with the brand of pipe you have..?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 21, 2019)

Man, it is smoking strong right now. Not sure what's different. I filled it up and it's running about 85% air setting. It was producing creo smell all startup with a nice strong draft. I feel like I might need to shut this thing down. We can't be breathing so much smoke. Especially the baby.

BK called me and said they think I need a chase and it is getting too cold. Sounds like a complete guess to me. Doesn't make sense based on how it's running. I could see that happening over a cold night when it is running on a low setting. How could I tell if that is the problem?

This morning I just stuffed a bolt in there lightly about a thread in, the cat was well active.  Practically no smell with that. It really doesn't seem like exhaust smoke, because I can smell that outside when I'm running on high.  It's more like there is some creo deposit on the cat probe and when it heats up it radiates out of the hole unless the draft is perfect and is pulling air in.  I'm going to look for some stainless foil that can widthstand the heat, maybe see if the chimney installer will come and seal up the pipe adapter or switch it to the flush version (its a little bit wedged in there weird and ovular with no screws to tighten it down). 

Will also investigate the 45's (though the BK rep now didn't suggest that). It will be a pain to have to recure them.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 22, 2019)

So it still has smell with the bolt plugging the cat probe hole.  It is 25°F out.  After warm up, I switched to the bolt, threw in half a load and slowly turned it to 75%.  I got my new STT thermometer and it nicely is holding at 425°F.  But after about 1hr the flames died and the smell increased. I foolishly increased the air and ignited the gas, which released more sweet creo smell but a little smokier and stingier.  

I called the chimney installer and they will come out 2/1, said "you shouldn't install any cement in the pipe".  Hope they actually do something.


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## Ludlow (Jan 22, 2019)

You may have mentioned before, do you have a CO detector?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 22, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> You may have mentioned before, do you have a CO detector?


Yes. Yes. Just got a new smoke+CO detector because old one was out of cal.  We have some type of detector in every room upstairs.  I've never triggered any of them.  It seems like it is just slow and steady. Luckily not enough to build up and trigger either alarm.  It would have to be serious smoke spillage it seems.

Edit: Just filled the box with it's first 2yr seasoned white oak.  I'm keeping it set ~85% and the STT is sitting nice at 600°F. No smell (tiny bit of paint maybe).  Last load I think I set it too low for half a load with the stove cold and it stalled.  It really heats up the wall because it's not getting good air intake with the stove warm.  With the stove at 600°F now the wall is maybe 100° instead of 125°F +.  Just really sensitive with this setup. Nice when it works...


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 28, 2019)

I've been experimenting with E-W loading and that has helped. I can load it in the middle or back E-W and it will slow down the burn quite a bit without turning down the air. So I'm trying about 30lbs of oak tight in the back and drop one or two smallies on the front coals to start it up. Got too eager last night with it barely active and woke up to a cold stove...


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jan 29, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I've been experimenting with E-W loading and that has helped. I can load it in the middle or back E-W and it will slow down the burn quite a bit without turning down the air. So I'm trying about 30lbs of oak tight in the back and drop one or two smallies on the front coals to start it up. Got too eager last night with it barely active and woke up to a cold stove...


It's amazing how much difference loading e-w can make vs n-s, isn't it?  

I still think the two 45s are worth a try.  Do you think you will be building a chase?  That would definitely keep the cold wind off your pipe.  Maybe even insulate the chase with some roxul.  

Here's a radical solution until you get that baby growed up a little- Apparently, there's an Englander stove on sale at Lowe's for about $700.  Pull that Ashford and store it for a few years and put the Englander in for a few.  After a few years, try the BK again, and if it works for you then, you can probably sell the Englander for just a couple hundred less than you paid for it.  Work on getting some wood to primo dry condition during the three year hiatus.

Yes, tons of hassle moving those big heavy stoves around, but a small investment, and it may get you where you are trying to go.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 29, 2019)

I was thinking more along the lines of insulating with roxul temporarily. How could I secure it to the pipe?  I don't think I'll be doing a chase this winter. I haven't got quotes but guess it would be in the $2K-5k range.  With that price I could have replaced my zero clearance fireplace.

I have 1/4 box of coals this morning at 3/4 setting! That feels like success to me! Don't think there was any creo smoke last night.

Also, I do plan to switch to 45's but it has to be at a time when we can cure the new pipe. That won't be fun.  We have a bunch of guests coming this weekend.


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## Dave K (Jan 30, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> It's amazing how much difference loading e-w can make vs n-s, isn't it?
> 
> I still think the two 45s are worth a try.  Do you think you will be building a chase?  That would definitely keep the cold wind off your pipe.  Maybe even insulate the chase with some roxul.
> 
> ...




I feel like it would be cheaper for him to just buy eco-bricks for this year and save his current wood for next year.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Jan 30, 2019)

Dave K said:


> I feel like it would be cheaper for him to just buy eco-bricks for this year and save his current wood for next year.


 
Why is that? Cordwood is free. I have 3 cords of good seasoned oak and ash. It's been running great this week with the EW loads. Getting good 8-10hr burns before reloading. Not sure why more people don't do this during shoulder season. 10hr burns with half a load and the glass is completely clean


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## Dave K (Jan 31, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Why is that? Cordwood is free. I have 3 cords of good seasoned oak and ash. It's been running great this week with the EW loads. Getting good 8-10hr burns before reloading. Not sure why more people don't do this during shoulder season. 10hr burns with half a load and the glass is completely clean



My fault for not reading through the whole thread. I assumed your issue was unseasoned wood. ‍


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 1, 2019)

Dave K said:


> My fault for not reading through the whole thread. I assumed your issue was unseasoned wood. ‍


 Oh no problem. Wish it were that simple!


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## Ashful (Feb 1, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I've been experimenting with E-W loading and that has helped. I can load it in the middle or back E-W and it will slow down the burn quite a bit without turning down the air. So I'm trying about 30lbs of oak tight in the back and drop one or two smallies on the front coals to start it up. Got too eager last night with it barely active and woke up to a cold stove...



How long are your splits?   I’ve had issues when my splits get real close to the glass:

1.  Getting to light-off takes a lot longer

2.  Issues with cat clogging on high burn

3.  Occasional smoke smell

It seems I have none of these issues when I keep my splits (always N-S) at 18” or less.  Unfortunately, I was sitting on 30 cords of 20” stuff when I got these stoves.  

Any success you’re having with loading E-W might be due to keeping the wood farther from the airwash stream, than the actual direction of the wood.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 1, 2019)

@Ashful 

Most of the stuff this year was cut to 17.5". Next year is at 16".  I try to stuff it just inside the firebrick but that is the exact "blast furnace" spot. 

It is definitely about keeping the wood further from the airwash.  When I startup on a full NS load, especially with super dry ash, the stove temp skyrockets to 550°F+. If the air is set below ~90% and it was above 28°F out, the thermostat would snuff out the airflow and kill the draft which emits a lot of creo smell.  The first 3" of log would be burned up right when the stat was shutting down and wood was loosing the initial huge heat output.  It seems you need a super high draft to be able to keep the flow going in this situation.  The white oak is much more controlled and I was able to do some NS loads with it on high and 10°F out.


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## Ashful (Feb 1, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @Ashful
> 
> Most of the stuff this year was cut to 17.5". Next year is at 16".  I try to stuff it just inside the firebrick but that is the exact "blast furnace" spot.
> 
> It is definitely about keeping the wood further from the airwash.  When I startup on a full NS load, especially with super dry ash, the stove temp skyrockets to 550°F+. If the air is set below ~90% and it was above 28°F out, the thermostat would snuff out the airflow and kill the draft which emits a lot of creo smell.  The first 3" of log would be burned up right when the stat was shutting down and wood was loosing the initial huge heat output.  It seems you need a super high draft to be able to keep the flow going in this situation.  The white oak is much more controlled and I was able to do some NS loads with it on high and 10°F out.



I’m not sure if you’ve been reading the BK performance threads, all 2000+ posts per year of them, but draft has been a big topic of conversation in the last 12 - 18 months.  I was having some troubles, caused entirely by my too-high draft, which have been solved with the addition of a key damper.  A lot of us have found that taming down these tall chimneys with a key damper has solved a few of our issues, and really improved stove performance.  So, I’m very surprised to hear you say your stove wants a very strong draft, it’s exactly the opposite of what the rest of us have found.

I keep my draft at 0.05”WC +/- 0.01” on a high burn, constantly monitored via Magnehelic.  It climbs above this number, even close to 0.10”WC when I dial down, but the spec in the manual (0.05”WC nominal, 0.06”WC absolute maximum) is on high burn.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 1, 2019)

Yes I know. If you have a straight up 20ft+ chimney I can see high draft being a problem.  Right now I'm getting smoke smell when the stove is warm (stat partially closed) and air setting at 75% or below depending on conditions.  My flame will go out if turned around 50% setting (and produce a lot of smoke smell).   If full open with a big NS load I seem to get a nice strong draft "blast furnace feel" initially but when the stat starts closing or I turn it down too much it can quickly go to a lower simmer and will start producing smell.

I'd much rather have a high draft situation and lose a little burn time than be getting smoke in the house. As long as I can get a solid 10-12hrs. Would be nice to have a 20+hr burn on low during the warmer days but we'll take it one thing at a time.  Sounds like there is a tight draft window for optimal performance.


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## Ashful (Feb 1, 2019)

Yes, the window for optimal performance is fairly tight.  No surprise, they’re pushing the state of the art, in the area of max burn time.  But I was able to get very good burn times (~24 hours, without even trying) on my massively too-tall chimney, which was pulling 3x the “absolute maximum” value allowed in the BK manual, so that shouldn’t be an issue.  My issues with too much draft were plugging the combustor with fly ash, due to the vortex in the firebox, and running hotter than it should on wide-open throttle.

All of us can stall these stoves, on any draft setting.  On my Ashford 30’s, the stall point is somewhere between 1 and 2 on the old dial, or roughly 2 o’clock position.  The usable range is only maybe 40% of the total available range, for my installs.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 1, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Yes, the window for optimal performance is fairly tight.  No surprise, they’re pushing the state of the art, in the area of max burn time.  But I was able to get very good burn times (~24 hours, without even trying) on my massively too-tall chimney, which was pulling 3x the “absolute maximum” value allowed in the BK manual, so that shouldn’t be an issue.  My issues with too much draft were plugging the combustor with fly ash, due to the vortex in the firebox, and running hotter than it should on wide-open throttle.
> 
> All of us can stall these stoves, on any draft setting.  On my Ashford 30’s, the stall point is somewhere between 1 and 2 on the old dial, or roughly 2 o’clock position.  The usable range is only maybe 40% of the total available range, for my installs.



-->_But I was able to get very good burn times (~24 hours, without even trying) on my massively too-tall chimney, _
That's what I mean. I think it would be very difficult for me to get 12hrs+ without getting smoke smell in my house.  It would likely keep burning, just there would be an increasing amount of creo smell and likely some backpuffing in the stove pipe. Possibly if I constantly monitor and update the air setting throughout the burn (every 30min-45min) then I might be able to extend the time a few hours.  But no way can I just set it at 50-75% burn setting and leave it for >12hrs without it getting low draft at some point and releasing smoke.

--> _All of us can stall these stoves, on any draft setting. _
What does that mean exactly?  That's kind of what I'm wondering about. Could you start getting smoke exhaust set at 75% with a decent bed of coals?  Or if you have a box full of 14% MC ash could yours rocket up to temp and then stall/start emitting smoke once the stat starts cutting the air @ 50-75% setting?  It's pretty impossible for me to fill the box and keep it on medium even without it start smelling.


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## Ashful (Feb 1, 2019)

Interesting.  One thing I’ve been able to notice, running two stoves, is how much other things going on in the house bear on this creo smell thing.  Example, last night I had one stove dialed down for a 24 hour burn, and the other ripping wide-open.  This resulted in me getting a creo smell from the one that was dialed down, which is never a problem when I have them both dialed down, or both ripping.  I believe the issue is that the one which was ripping wide open was sucking enough air out of the house to change the chimney pressure on the one that was dialed way down.

Similar things could be happening to people with their central boilers, range hoods, dryers, bathroom vents, and other appliances that pull air out of the heated envelope.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 1, 2019)

It is too consistent to be related to indoor pressure. When its warm out I often had the windows cracked and it still gave off smell.


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## AlbergSteve (Feb 4, 2019)

I feel your pain. After replacing the door gasket last year, that "seemed" to reduce the smoke smell. But alas, it's back again this winter. It  seems to happen when the stove is turned down and we've had some pretty mild temps this year. Last night it got down to -6C so I set the stat to 430-5 o'clock to run a little hotter - this morning got up to the faint smell of smoke again. My next step is to install the OAK and will be ordering a manometer today. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 4, 2019)

Ashful said:


> other things going on in the house bear on this creo smell thing.





ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It is too consistent to be related to indoor pressure. When its warm out I often had the windows cracked and it still gave off smell.





AlbergSteve said:


> replacing the door gasket last year, that "seemed" to reduce the smoke smell. But alas, it's back again this winter. It  seems to happen when the stove is turned down and we've had some pretty mild temps this year.


Smoke smell, for me, would trump everything else. No other feature would out-weigh it. If I couldn't fix it, the stove would be out the door. YMMV.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 5, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> I feel your pain. After replacing the door gasket last year, that "seemed" to reduce the smoke smell. But alas, it's back again this winter. It  seems to happen when the stove is turned down and we've had some pretty mild temps this year. Last night it got down to -6C so I set the stat to 430-5 o'clock to run a little hotter - this morning got up to the faint smell of smoke again. My next step is to install the OAK and will be ordering a manometer today. I'll let you know how it goes.


Sorry to hear you have similar issue.  What kind of chimney setup do you have?  I highly recommend trying the E-W back loading technique and keep it at 75% or so (slightly higher than you do with N-S loading).  PM me if you want more details. Also it looks like small and extra dry wood makes the problem worse (at least for me). It causes the stove to get much hotter and close the airflow while it doesn't have enough mass to keep the heat going. Oak has been doing much better.  We haven't got that smell in the past two weeks or so, but I haven't attempted a burn >10hrs.


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## kennyp2339 (Feb 5, 2019)

No trying to fan the flames here but lighting my cold princess last night I noticed a few things.
When I initially lit the stove I have my by-pass open and key damper opened, the fire started catching and i may have had a 150deg stove top (no where near ready to close the by-pass)
The fire was growing and I could hear a faint whistle coming from the cat probe, I took the cat probe out and there was def a whistle of air rushing in (vacuum) I put the flue probe back into the hold and decided to close down the key damper, I went from a string whistle sucking up into the chimney to believe it or not a few small puffs of smoke coming out where the stove collar adapter meets the dvl, it would literally just puff ever so slightly, and actually some of the smoke would be sucked back into the pipe, this left a very faint smoke smell, but still noticeable if you got near the stove top.
I opened the key damper some and the puffing stopped.
I only saying this because when you lite up your stove you may want to sit by it while its getting started in a darken room with a flash light to see if your experiencing puffing due to a weaker draft.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 5, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Smoke smell, for me, would trump everything else. No other feature would out-weigh it. If I couldn't fix it, the stove would be out the door. YMMV.


Yes agreed. If I'm still not able to control the smell by the end of the season I'll probably look at trading it for another stove, despite the hassle.  It's been doing fine recently if I'm not too aggressive with the burn times. I'll try a few tricks to get the overnight burn on warmer nights. Will probably look at switching to 45's sometime this winter.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 5, 2019)

kennyp2339 said:


> No trying to fan the flames here but lighting my cold princess last night I noticed a few things.
> When I initially lit the stove I have my by-pass open and key damper opened, the fire started catching and i may have had a 150deg stove top (no where near ready to close the by-pass)
> The fire was growing and I could hear a faint whistle coming from the cat probe, I took the cat probe out and there was def a whistle of air rushing in (vacuum) I put the flue probe back into the hold and decided to close down the key damper, I went from a string whistle sucking up into the chimney to believe it or not a few small puffs of smoke coming out where the stove collar adapter meets the dvl, it would literally just puff ever so slightly, and actually some of the smoke would be sucked back into the pipe, this left a very faint smoke smell, but still noticeable if you got near the stove top.
> I opened the key damper some and the puffing stopped.
> I only saying this because when you lite up your stove you may want to sit by it while its getting started in a darken room with a flash light to see if your experiencing puffing due to a weaker draft.



Yes, I'm sure that's what it is. It's fine even during startup, mostly when up to temp and the stat starting to cut the air or otherwise the draft decreasing with a smokey box.  You'd have to try the flashlight trick with the damper open, otherwise the cat is burning all the smoke.  I even closed the cat probe hole and it must be coming out the flue connector as well.  I definitely do not get any sort of whistling from my probe hole. I can hear some air flowing through though. Probably best to get a manometer measurement but I really do not want to put another hole in the pipe.


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## AlbergSteve (Feb 5, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Sorry to hear you have similar issue.  What kind of chimney setup do you have?  I highly recommend trying the E-W back loading technique and keep it at 75% or so (slightly higher than you do with N-S loading).  PM me if you want more details. Also it looks like small and extra dry wood makes the problem worse (at least for me). It causes the stove to get much hotter and close the airflow while it doesn't have enough mass to keep the heat going. Oak has been doing much better.  We haven't got that smell in the past two weeks or so, but I haven't attempted a burn >10hrs.


I've tried loading e-w, it's a pita unless you have nice square or rectangular shaped wood. Otherwise you can't fill the box to capacity, for the long burn times. 
Seventeen feet , straight up.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 5, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> I've tried loading e-w, it's a pita unless you have nice square or rectangular shaped wood. Otherwise you can't fill the box to capacity, for the long burn times.
> Seventeen feet , straight up.


Oh I see. I can't load it up without the stove getting above 500°F so backfilling it halfway makes more sense. Also it's convenient because the wood doesn't start smoking until the last log is dropped.


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## Ashful (Feb 6, 2019)

kennyp2339 said:


> The fire was growing and I could hear a faint whistle coming from the cat probe, I took the cat probe out and there was def a whistle of air rushing in (vacuum) I put the flue probe back into the hold and decided to close down the key damper, I went from a string whistle sucking up into the chimney to believe it or not a few small puffs of smoke coming out where the stove collar adapter meets the dvl, it would literally just puff ever so slightly, and actually some of the smoke would be sucked back into the pipe, this left a very faint smoke smell, but still noticeable if you got near the stove top.
> I opened the key damper some and the puffing stopped.
> I only saying this because when you lite up your stove you may want to sit by it while its getting started in a darken room with a flash light to see if your experiencing puffing due to a weaker draft.


Interesting observation, but if I recall, didn’t you install the key damper right at the stove collar?  This creates a different scenario than those of us with the damper several feet above the stove, and is dramatically different than an open chimney that has lower draft, in terms of pressure vs flow curve.


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## kennyp2339 (Feb 6, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Interesting observation, but if I recall, didn’t you install the key damper right at the stove collar?  This creates a different scenario than those of us with the damper several feet above the stove, and is dramatically different than an open chimney that has lower draft, in terms of pressure vs flow curve.


I also did a second damper much higher which has become my primary damper


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 10, 2019)

I'm starting to get a little bit of smell even on wide open.  Was getting a bit on 80% with a larger N-S load. The draft does not seem as good and I'm having trouble keeping it going.  I'm pretty sure it is time for a cleaning.  We've been spending a lot of time on "inactive" with the warm weather and have put >1 cord through it. Ordering a heavy poly brush, 45's and 18" telescoping pipe. Will probably call the installer in to just seal everything up with Rutland cement as well.  Crossing my fingers I can get this thing running clean or else I might have to give up on Blaze King and start shopping around for a different stove next year


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 11, 2019)

Phew, the cat can breathe again! Is it normal to get that much buildup and clogging? There is a gap about 1/4" in my cat guard plate. I checked about a month ago and did not see any buildup like that, maybe something to do with the slower oak burns?
That at least makes sense with my recent problems in the past two weeks. Just ordered the 45s as well...


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## AlbergSteve (Feb 11, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Phew, the cat can breathe again! Is it normal to get that much buildup and clogging? There is a gap about 1/4" in my cat guard plate. I checked about a month ago and did not see any buildup like that, maybe something to do with the slower oak burns?
> That at least makes sense with my recent problems in the past two weeks. Just ordered the 45s as well...


I had that gap on mine, I think it was heat induced so I straightened it out.


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## MissMac (Feb 11, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Phew, the cat can breathe again! Is it normal to get that much buildup and clogging? There is a gap about 1/4" in my cat guard plate. I checked about a month ago and did not see any buildup like that, maybe something to do with the slower oak burns?
> That at least makes sense with my recent problems in the past two weeks. Just ordered the 45s as well...


Your cat looks like it’s popped out a smidge.  If you haven’t done so already, gently push on those tabs and set it back in place as far back as it will go.  I get fly ash accumulate on my cat as well.  Just brush it off or gently vacuum.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> There is a gap about 1/4" in my cat guard plate. I checked about a month ago and did not see any buildup like that, maybe something to do with the slower oak burns?
> That at least makes sense with my recent problems in the past two weeks. Just ordered the 45s as well...


Looks like the buildup was on the upper part of the cat, and the gap was on the bottom?
Until you get the 45s in, anything that cuts draft (liked a clogged cat) is going to let the stove emit more odor.
Not sure if Oak is worse for ash but it's what Ashful mainly burns, I think, and he talks about brushing the cat rather often...
My stove has a screen for a flame shield, and it seems to catch some of the ash. I have to brush it a few times a season, and the cat maybe twice. 16' stack, rear-vent.


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## moresnow (Feb 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Phew, the cat can breathe again! Is it normal to get that much buildup and clogging?



I have noticed that burning at higher settings seems to send more particulates up through the Cat. Rarely a issue for my setup but I have seen it. 
 I've been leaving the stat closed much further than recommended while opening the loading door and removing ash also. Not sure if that is making a huge difference but it seems to reduce floating flyash.
 Occasionally the face of my cat gets vac'd. The rear does as well. Probably 3 times this season so far. Takes seconds. 
Never had as much buildup as you have pictured. Yet! Good luck and nice to hear you are working through the setup/learning curve challenges and details to get this setup buttoned up.


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## Ashful (Feb 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Phew, the cat can breathe again! Is it normal to get that much buildup and clogging?


I’ve been having problems with ash buildup and clogging on one of my Ashfords, only when burning on a high setting.  My other Ashford is on a shorter chimney, and never, ever, ever burned high, so no issues with that one.

Yours doesn’t look that bad, I can do that amount of damage in just a single load.  I’ve had them plugged completely solid once or twice, to where the fire dies every time I engage the cat.

My solution:  keep interam gasket on-hand, pull cat and vacuum it whenever it gets plugged.  It’s too hard to get a vacuum nozzle up to the face of the cat in the Ashford, and I usually want to vacuum the chamber behind it anyway, rather than sucking the crap back there into the back of the cat.

I did try compressed air to blow it clean, while installed in the stove once, but will never make that mistake again!  I’ll probably be finding dust in crevices about the house for the next ten years, after that bone-headed move.

Installing a key damper to control draft has really helped with the problem, in my case, as I have a very tall chimney that sucks like... well, never mind.  However, I do something bone-headed and let it run too hard a few times each year, defeating the advantage.

Woodstock Fireviews had the same problem, but they resolved it by placing a screen in front of the cat.  Lots of posts on this forum ca.2012/13 about users removing and vacuuming that screen as part of their weekly cleaning routine, although most of those users and posts were deleted in the great Exodus of 2013.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 12, 2019)

Not easy to see from the pics but the top two corners were fully jammed, about 1/3 of the area blocked.  It was putting out the flame when I closed the bypass unless there was a big blazing fire of small splits. It's been on inactive a lot, about 2-3 times a day because I'm not getting good enough burn times to make it overnight and during the day. I can't load it up without it getting above 80°F downstairs when in the 40's outside. 

After cat cleaning there is certainly better airflow through the stove but the typical creo smell is no different.  Just a little bit slower draft or too low flame and we are getting some smell upstairs.  Depending on what is going on in the box that could be at 75-90% air setting.


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## Dave K (Feb 13, 2019)

I just had my Ashford 30 installed 2 weeks ago and I've had nothing but a great experience so far.  I'm sorry that you're going through all of this, but its amazing how the same stove in 2 different set ups acts so differently.  I hope you get it straightened out and really start to enjoy this stove.  I am thrilled with mine after coming from an old smoke dragon.   Good luck~


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 13, 2019)

Dave K said:


> I just had my Ashford 30 installed 2 weeks ago and I've had nothing but a great experience so far.  I'm sorry that you're going through all of this, but its amazing how the same stove in 2 different set ups acts so differently.  I hope you get it straightened out and really start to enjoy this stove.  I am thrilled with mine after coming from an old smoke dragon.   Good luck~


Glad to hear it. Good you're chimney layout was optimal and you didn't up with a $4K _new_ smoke dragon.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 13, 2019)

Great, to make things worse I came home tonight and the stove was cold, relit with 4 or 5 small logs with the bypass closed. I got it going, but my next overnight load just started dying after 20 min with air on full. When I open the bypass the air started rushing through. 

Guess I'm going to have to cool down the stove again tomorrow to reclean. 

Has anyone had a more painful experience with a BK than what I'm dealing with?


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## moresnow (Feb 14, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Great, to make things worse I came home tonight and the stove was cold, relit with 4 or 5 small logs with the bypass closed. I got it going, but my next overnight load just started dying after 20 min with air on full. When I open the bypass the air started rushing through.



Sooooo? Why would you try to relight with the bypass closed? Completely incorrect procedure. On a cold stove relight are you not running the stove with the bypass open until your cat gauge reaches active? Then closing the bypass on that fresh full load leaving the stat on full air for BK's recommended 20-30 minutes before reducing air to your normal cruise spot. Fire dying at the 20 min mark indicates a real problem with either your setup, procedure or fuel in my opinion. Is there any local experienced BK users near you that can stop by to trouble shoot? Gotta be somebody nearby who can give it a look. Believe I'd swallow my pride and start a new thread asking for a local experienced BK user to come give me help.

Might want to re read this page from your Op Man.
https://www.blazeking.com/EN/PDF/manuals/OM-AF30-E.pdf


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 14, 2019)

@moresnow
No no, let me rephrase. Before I got home, _a certain someone_ had reloaded a cold stove and immediately closed the bypass. There were smouldering half burnt logs left.  I opened the bypass and cracked the door and got a flame going. Then I threw on about 5 small ash logs that got it up to active temp to get ready for the overnight load.

I'm about to check, but I think the cat is replugged. If you read the last 5-10 posts they were about how when the cat is plugged the flame can go out when the bypass is closed.


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## moresnow (Feb 14, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> No no, let me rephrase. Before I got home, _a certain someone_ had reloaded a cold stove and immediately closed the bypass. There were smouldering half burnt logs left. I opened the bypass and cracked the door and got a flame going. Then I threw on about 5 small ash logs that got it up to active temp to get ready for the overnight load.
> 
> I'm about to check, but I think the cat is replugged. If you read the last 5-10 posts they were about how when the cat is plugged the flame can go out when the bypass is closed.



Ahhhh, the certain someone situation! That can be remedied with time, teaching and patience My certain someone is completely capable of running ours. It took awhile to get her there!

I have been monitoring your progress the entire journey. Including the plugging cat issue. Your rough road seems like it has to have a reasonable explanation/solution. Like I have mentioned it may be time for a fresh set of eyes/hands to help you out. Or confirm there is something out of the ordinary happening. Just a thought. Best of luck.


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## MissMac (Feb 14, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Great, to make things worse I came home tonight and the stove was cold, relit with 4 or 5 small logs with the bypass closed. I got it going, but my next overnight load just started dying after 20 min with air on full. When I open the bypass the air started rushing through.
> 
> Guess I'm going to have to cool down the stove again tomorrow to reclean.
> 
> Has anyone had a more painful experience with a BK than what I'm dealing with?


Why did you start a fire from cold with the bypass closed?  That's not the proper procedure for a cold start - your bypass should be open until your cat is active.  It's not surprising that your fire was sluggish in this instance.  Follow the manual.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 14, 2019)

@MissMac , read the next two posts.

So now I went to go remove and inspect the cat, it was clean... but in the process I disintegrated the cat gasket.  So I have a bunch of material on order and stove is down..

I'm a little worried the cat is decaying.  It looked okay but I do see a lot of red powder.  There was a lot when I ran the stove on high trying to cure the paint.  It's possible I may have hit some wet spots in this oak stash, most of it was ~18%.  There was about 2 cups of coals and it was about 20° on the dial above the active mark when I filled the E-W 25lb oak load and threw one 1lb oak stick on the coal.  Might have been a little too low of a start.  The chimney may be a little clogged too.


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Glad to hear it. Good you're chimney layout was optimal and you didn't up with a $4K _new_ smoke dragon.


BK sells thousands of stoves per year, and very few setups are “optimal”, but they work.  I’m running two BK’s in this house, one on a 15 foot chimney and the other on 30 feet, and both run just fine.  There is likely no reason your setup shouldn’t work, in the right hands.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Has anyone had a more painful experience with a BK than what I'm dealing with?


There have been a few, mostly self-inflicted.  That’s not a dig at you, I honestly haven’t been paying enough attention to the history of this thread to have a solid mental picture of what you’ve been through.  But I can say I’ve seen many life-long smoke dragon burners come to this forum, way past the point of frustration, get straightened out pretty quickly.  Almost all of them will tell you today that they’d never go back, once they finally saw the light.

Then there are a few that were just too stubborn to listen, insisting on doing things “their way”, rather than taking the advice given here.  You just can’t help some folks.

What I’d like to do, and ask others here to do, is go back and read through your posts.  Let’s see if we can help you get this thing burning right.  I’m going to make it my homework for later tonight.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 14, 2019)

@Ashful
That would be great.  I really think there some inherent problems due to my install causing poor draft and very high stall point. Mainly stemming from:
-90degree 2ft above stove
-Tee and wall exit
-Exterior chimney without a chase.

As far as performance I think I was able to get about a 15hr burn earlier in smoke mode, just that it was releasing lots of smoke into the house. Mostly the goal is to get consistent 10-12hr lower heat burns and not get smoke in the house without the stars being perfectly aligned.

I had no idea that "recommended/preferred" in the manual was recommending/preferring you prevent smoke spraying into your house. Otherwise I would have been super stringent about those requirements.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 14, 2019)

Also, quick question. So only the bottom cat gasket edge stayed intact. I was able to stuff the crumbs around the other three edges but it's not perfect. Could this damage the combustor if the gasket is not perfect? Any tips for securing the gasket material before inserting the cat? Replacements normally comes with a paper band...


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Also, quick question. So only the bottom cat gasket edge stayed intact. I was able to stuff the crumbs around the other three edges but it's not perfect. Could this damage the combustor if the gasket is not perfect? Any tips for securing the gasket material before inserting the cat? Replacements normally comes with a paper band...


Just got to reading your thread through, but this one is easy:

1.  No, it will not harm your cat to run it with an imperfect gasket, it will only diminish performance.  You should get to replacing it, sooner than later, but don't let a damaged cat gasket keep you from burning while you await the arrival of a new one.

2.  Gasket is disposable, to be replaced each time you pull it.  It only costs $2 per foot, and you need 2.5 feet per installation, so it's a $5/per cat pull type thing.  Order 10 or 20 feet of it from an online stove shop, or pick it up locally.  It's called "interam" gasket, and it's 2" wide.

Most folks will tell you that you should never have to pull a cat before it's due for replacement, around 3 years for a 24/7 burner.  However, I'm becoming a fan of pulling them for the yearly cleaning.  It gives me a chance to inspect it, vacuum it clean, and clean the chimney sweepings out of the cat chamber without pulling my stovepipe.


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## rdust (Feb 14, 2019)

Ashful said:


> although most of those users and posts were deleted in the great Exodus of 2013.



 I don’t think I’ve ever heard it described that way.


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2019)

Okay, I read every one of your posts, and even a few of the responses.  Forgive me if I'm repeating a lot of what was already said, some of that is intentional, but also some is probably because I didn't take the time to read every response already given by every contributor.   In any case, some repeat, or even refutation of what has already been said, might be useful at this stage of the game.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It's 19.5ft outside with two 15° elbows to go around the roofline.  It's 50°F out and draft seems decent. There is some smoke spillage when it is opened and there are good flames going.


Plus another elbow indoors.  Plus another tee on the outside of that wall.  Each elbow or tee effectively reduces your chimney height.  Old member Backwoods Savage used to always quote the effective height reduction as 2 - 3 feet per 90 degree elbow, which means your original 3' inside + 19.5' outside would be an effective 12.5 feet by his estimate, although I'd bet his numbers are another subject of debate.

Smoke spillage is a definite sign of weak draft in an Ashford 30, the one I have on a 30 foot pipe that never spills an ounce of smoke, no matter when in the burn cycle I open it.  The one on the 15 foot pipe rarely spills smoke when I open the door, but it has on a few occasions.




ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Even now after 6hrs it's still getting some smoke in the house. I had to open a bunch of windows again. I have young kids in the house, I might need to shut it down until it gets colder
> 
> Would it help to run it hotter? It was at about 5/10 most of today, now just increased it to 6.


Usually, yes.  Draft increases with chimney temperature, and chimney temperature increases with burn rate.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> There is about 3' inside and 19.5' outside.  It doesn't smell like paint curing, more of a creosote type smell. And I'm pretty positive it is coming from the probe hole...


A few members have reported the same, you are not alone.  All but one case of smoke smell have been resolved except one that I am aware.  Also all but one were user or installation issues, as far as we know on this forum, I only recall one that was an actual manufacturing issue (incomplete weld leaking creo).  The point is, there is a good chance this will be resolved.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Again today, fine when running high, but anything below 7/10 seems to emit some odor. It's now in the 40's. Our 10mo old was coughing all last night. I'm starting to get concerned about the air quality and disappointed overall with this whole endeavor.
> 
> Sounds like possibility not a perfect draft and maybe a connector problem? There aren't even any screws connecting the DVL adapter to the stove outlet, just slipped on. Should they have also put some sealant on all the DVL?


At this point, I'd be ordering some equipment to measure the draft.  I went with a 0.25"WC Magnehelic off ebay, but there are less expensive options out there.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I just called BK and they said it was definitely a draft issue. The easiest thing would be to add 3ft more chimney to meet the recommended height... should have played it safe during the install.
> 
> The temp probe IS directly tapped into the combustor output, so smoke will come out there with poor draft.


Following the timeline of your story, I'd have said the same thing, at this point.  Four 90's is an awful lot for 22.5 feet of pipe, when you're aiming for an effective 15 feet.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> So update for anyone still reading:
> 
> Ordered a 3ft chimney extension and mostly running it full open or 75% a few logs at a time. I tried wrapping a few layers of tinfoil around the probe which seemed to help, but on Sunday I tried a 60% setting with 5 med logs and once it damped down I saw two big puffs of smoke come out of all the dvl connections! Is that normal?


Backpuffing at low burn rates is another indicator of low draft.  I used to have the same problem with one of my Jotuls on a 15 foot x 8" clay tile exterior flue.  I dropped a 6" liner into that cold clay tile flue, and it was mostly resolved.  I moved the stove to the 30 foot flue, and it was completely resolved.  We didn't need this to think draft is too low, but this is yet one more indicator.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Luckily it is now staying in the 30's or 20's which should help.  How much flue do you need to be able to run medium/low air without getting any smoke in the house? Does anyone have success with a BK wall exit? I'm wondering if my dreams of the 20hr+ are impossible for my setup. Having the window cracked is kind of detracting from the efficiency gained by the BK.


I am doing it on 15 feet of fully insulated liner, straight up.  Truth be told, I have had a light creo smell in the house on a few occasions, but that's been the exception.  I believe each time has been under one of two conditions:

1.  I run the stove on the 15 foot pipe at a very low rate, while having another big air demand in the house, like letting the stove on the 30 foot pipe rip wide open.

2.  My house is shaped like a big "U", with a central courtyard, and one stove at either end of the "U".  When wind conditions are right, smoke from one chimney can be drawn in as make-up air in windows across the courtyard.  Others living in areas prone to downdrafts have reported similar issues, smoke being drawn in from outside, as make-up air.  It's possible you are unknowingly resolving this by opening a window near the stove, reducing the need to bring in that make-up air from some location in the smoke path of your chimney, but this seems unlikely if you successfully burned another stove on this chimney.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> That sounds pretty similar to my situation. Around the 3:30 is where I'm trying to run overnight. But I get smell everytime. It's always warmed up beforehand for an hour or two on high. Last night I ran at 4:30 setting and there was very little (also 20 degrees out). I don't always have big logs that can last that long. It seems better for me if I warm the flue and then on the overnight load I turn it down earlier and let itself slowly damp the air. If its fully ignited, hot and try to turn down it will smoke hard.
> 
> The current supply is 2yr seasoned ash. It was 20% last winter.
> 
> I'm wondering if everyone gets this creosote smell at some setting or if that's particular to poor draft setups?


Oddly enough, one guy here (@aaronk25 ) seemed to be reporting a smell with an unusually high draft.  But yes, I suspect others are related to low draft.  However, most of us just see our stoves stall out when we try to run too low for our draft, the creo smell issue really has been isolated to just a fraction of the users.  It has been mostly Ashford 30 users, though...



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes, I did search for an interior chimney solution.  There is no spot where the pipe can run through without horribly disrupting the rooms. Above this now is the master bed.  It would have a very inconvenient position in the room with the pipe running through.
> 
> I can easily add more pipe to the top, that is the plan.  The downside is that it will have an increasingly awkward appearance to the outside of our modern suburban house.  Right now it is sticking up 6' above the roofline on the frontside of the house.
> 
> The 90, tee and 15's are definitely limiting the draft.  The BK manual calls for 25ft vertical rise with this setup while I'm currently at 22ft.  So I'll see how it runs when I return in town next year and add the 3ft.


But you still have the double jog to get around the soffit?  It seems the ideal setup would be:

1.  Replace indoor 90 with dual 45's.
2.  Punch straight thru soffit, get rid of jog up there.
3.  Increase height a few feet.



ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It looks like my "safe" setting is about 4:30 which keeps it about the start of high with a full load. It's enough to last the night but it's a little hotter than needed for nighttime downstairs.
> 
> My new chimney pipe came in dent free so I'm hoping that will let me lower the min setting to 3:00 or lower, smoke free.


I run each of mine around 3:00, and my stall points are probably close to 2:00, just for reference.  Oddly, the difference between stall point on the two is within minutes on the clock face, very small differences for a two-to-one difference in my two chimney heights.

I'm going to stop here for the night, bed time.  I read the rest, so yes... I already know you've added height, and are still having trouble.  I'll respond to the rest later.


----------



## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 15, 2019)

Thanks for all the time Ashful. If you haven't seen, BK has a guide in their latest manual revision that allows you to calculate effective flue height. 45=1ft, 90=2ft, tee=3ft. Horiz run= 2ft/ft horiz. According to that I'd need about 23-24ft vertical. I have about 25ft now with the extension.


----------



## Ashful (Feb 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Thanks for all the time Ashful. If you haven't seen, BK has a guide in their latest manual revision that allows you to calculate effective flue height. 45=1ft, 90=2ft, tee=3ft. Horiz run= 2ft/ft horiz. According to that I'd need about 23-24ft vertical. I have about 25ft now with the extension.



Cool.  We can check that box, then.

More tonight, if I get to readin’ before I get to drinkin’.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 15, 2019)

The installer is no longer helping either. They were asking $150 service charge min to do any additional work: applying some cement, replacing one elbow, etc. >:|


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 15, 2019)

Also, this corrugated Selkirk DSP is horrible pipe. It clearly provides no sealing of the air, just "directs" the smoke. Look at what came out when I blew a hair dryer up the flue.


----------



## AlbergSteve (Feb 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Also, this corrugated Selkirk DSP is horrible pipe. It clearly provides no sealing of the air, just "directs" the smoke. Look at what came out when I blew a hair dryer up the flue.


What the hell- that ain't right. Nothing should be coming out of that pipe. What's the short piece of pipe between the dsp and the stove?


----------



## Ashful (Feb 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Also, this corrugated Selkirk DSP is horrible pipe. It clearly provides no sealing of the air, just "directs" the smoke. Look at what came out when I blew a hair dryer up the flue.


Houston, we have a problem.  Even if the pipe has a shitty seal, all junk should fall back down inside pipe, never come outside.  Paging @bholler, possible install issue in post 125.


----------



## bholler (Feb 15, 2019)

I agree it is pretty shty pipe but something isn't right there.  Although blowing up the pipe creates a positive pressure not the normal negative pressure.  So a little dust wouldn't surprise me.  That is quite a bit though.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 15, 2019)

Also there was a downdraft since the stove was cold. I was reversing it with the dryer and as soon as I turned it on high the stuff puffed out. That is likely where the smell is coming. It can also come out around cat probe if the draft is low. BTW, it is not dust. If you can't make it out there is a lot of black "crumbs", pretty sure they are creosote crumbs.

That connector is Selkirk 6" DSP Stove Adapter.  It looks like that's how it's supposed to be installed according to their manual.  I've seen every seam burst with smoke when the draft was too low and it ignited gas in the pipe (the first week I think). I'm not sure there is anything specifically wrong with this connector. The only obvious one is that they didn't install the finishing collar over the chimney connector, which specifically is mandated in the manual.


----------



## AlbergSteve (Feb 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Also there was a downdraft since the stove was cold. I was reversing it with the dryer and as soon as I turned it on high the stuff puffed out. That is likely where the smell is coming. It can also come out around cat probe if the draft is low.
> 
> That connector is Selkirk 6" DSP Stove Adapter.  It looks like that's how it's supposed to be installed according to their manual.  I've seen every seam burst with smoke when the draft was too low and it ignited gas in the pipe (the first week I think). I'm not sure there is anything specifically wrong with this connector. The only obvious one is that they didn't install the finishing collar over the chimney connector, which specifically is mandated in the manual.


I'd try removing the adapter and see if your double wall will fit on to the stove collar without it. That eliminates one joint, a very leaky one by the looks of it. My double wall tele pipe fits very snugly over the collar and tight to the stove top without the use of an adapter. My Regency and PE  fit the same way.


----------



## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 15, 2019)

@AlbergSteve That is an option when I get the 45's. I might be able to just remove the adapter and go straight into the same 2' pipe. I think the guys tried that when they put everything together though.  

If you think that joint is bad you should see the connections on the 90...


----------



## AlbergSteve (Feb 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @AlbergSteve That is an option when I get the 45's. I might be able to just remove the adapter and go straight into the same 2' pipe. I think the guys tried that when they put everything together though.


Might help with your draft a bit as well - if it's drawing cold air from that joint.


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## moresnow (Feb 16, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> My double wall tele pipe fits very snugly over the collar and tight to the stove top without the use of an adapter



Same situation for mine. Its actually a challenge re-installing it after each cleaning. A bit of a fight squeezing/wiggling/commenting etc. to get it to finally settle in. Definitely worth a try in my opinion.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 16, 2019)

Ya, I was considering switching to Duravent DVL (which is what they quoted and supposed to bring) but it's not technically compatible with the Selkirk UT Chimney. The connections are relatively snug but just do not seal well with this crappy corrugated design. I'm sure they are letting in tons of cool air.


----------



## 95XL883 (Feb 16, 2019)

VCS, if you will permit a remark from a lurker.   I run an old smoke dragon zero-clearance and am nowhere near as knowledgeable as most who are trying to help.  That said, I've been around construction my whole life and most of my professional life.  While most construction is at least passable and some is truly outstanding, I've seen some unbelievable screw-ups.   It certainly sounds like your chimney is poorly constructed.  Obviously, all the joints need to be closely checked but I can think of three other things you may want to check.

First, put a level on the horizontal pipe.  (Don't eyeball it, use a level.)  I've seen drainpipes installed wrong and one that even passed inspection.  (That was an expensive fix as it was under concrete in a highly finished basement.)  

Second, it is possible the installers left something in the pipe, a tool, a rag, something that partially blocks the flow.    I've seen that happen more than once.

Finally, this may be a reach but check the pipe diameters.  I've never seen it but I can easily imagine some doesn't care about it installer, putting in an 8"  pipe when it should be 6".  (My understanding is the Ashford's are designed for a 6" flue but check the manual.)

As I said, I'm not very knowledgeable about the newer fireplaces but it sounds like your problem is poor installation.  Even worse, it sounds like the installer doesn't care.  Hope this helps.  Good luck.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 16, 2019)

@95XL883 Of course! Thanks for the suggestions. I will be taking apart/replacing the stove pipe next week and cleaning out the chimney.  I would not be completely surprised based on the quality of work.  Definitely the diameter is correct at 6". They at least didn't screw that up.


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Also there was a downdraft since the stove was cold. I was reversing it with the dryer and as soon as I turned it on high the stuff puffed out. That is likely where the smell is coming. It can also come out around cat probe if the draft is low. BTW, it is not dust. If you can't make it out there is a lot of black "crumbs", pretty sure they are creosote crumbs.
> 
> That connector is Selkirk 6" DSP Stove Adapter.  It looks like that's how it's supposed to be installed according to their manual.  I've seen every seam burst with smoke when the draft was too low and it ignited gas in the pipe (the first week I think). I'm not sure there is anything specifically wrong with this connector. The only obvious one is that they didn't install the finishing collar over the chimney connector, which specifically is mandated in the manual.


Would the DSP fit directly into the flue collar without the adapter?


----------



## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 16, 2019)

I don't think the DSP pipe fits directly on the stove collar.

So reading through the Selkirk manual I'm pretty sure all of the connections are supposed to be mated tightly against what they call the "bead". That is supposed to form the seal. The corrugated area is just supposed to provide some tension. There is probably the equivalent area of a 1/2"-1" pipe directly open into the flue from each connection. One area I can almost fit my pinky finger into around the 90.

The connections all need to be pushed up to an inch to fully seal.  Does that seem like it could be the root cause of these draft issues? If so, this is a very sloppy install. A second tech came to "check" and said it was installed properly. I feel like they should be reported to the CSIA and FPI for a dangerous install. The are registered installers for both.

I will see if some of the connections can be reseated sometime this weekend, but the 45s will be installed next week regardless.


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## Ashful (Feb 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Ya.... I'm sure they are letting in tons of cool air.


This could be your single biggest problem.


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## Nigel459 (Feb 17, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I don't think the DSP pipe fits directly on the stove collar.
> ...
> The connections all need to be pushed up to an inch to fully seal.  Does that seem like it could be the root cause of these draft issues? If so, this is a very sloppy install.


I have DSP on a BK Sirocco 20. While I agree that it’s not the best pipe, my run is safe and sealed up well, pipes mated to those beads snugly. Even with two 45s. Sure sounds like your setup needs tightening up.

Also, the stove adapter was not required on my install. I had one on hand but it was not a snug fit and the telescoping fit perfectly and looked cleaner... check that as well... we may be on to something here. Good luck, you should be loving every minute of this stove, hope you get there ASAP.


----------



## Nigel459 (Feb 17, 2019)

Crappy pic I had to lighten to show the pipe, but shows the dsp fully mated and the telescoping pipe right over the stove collar.

It’s not a super long run, has 2 45s in it, and not a whiff of smoke smell. We run it low and slow for weeks and weeks in the shoulder season. Love it. Once again, hope you get it sorted.


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## Highbeam (Feb 17, 2019)

Nigel459 said:


> I have DSP on a BK Sirocco 20. While I agree that it’s not the best pipe, my run is safe and sealed up well, pipes mated to those beads snugly. Even with two 45s. Sure sounds like your setup needs tightening up.
> 
> Also, the stove adapter was not required on my install. I had one on hand but it was not a snug fit and the telescoping fit perfectly and looked cleaner... check that as well... we may be on to something here. Good luck, you should be loving every minute of this stove, hope you get there ASAP.



Just to add, any leak in your pipe system will suck air in and act to spoil your draft since every bit of room air sucked in means that much less sucking on your firebox to keep the smoke. 

Every leak in your flue system is like shortening your stack.


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## MissMac (Feb 17, 2019)

I have the same Selkirk pipe as you, and the same stove-top collar/adapter piece.  I think a lot of people use Selkirk without any issues, but like you I’m not thrilled with it, and wonder if it is part of my issue with the char smell that I get. Unfortunately my telescoping pipe does not fit around the stove collar, which is why the adapter is there.  If you have Selkirk pipe, i’m sure you’ll find the same thing.  

I wish I had spent more time lurking on this forum prior to getting my stove installed.  I think I would have made a few different choices, one of them being using a different brand of pipe.  However, this pipe is what the dealer recommended, so one would think/hope that the people who sell the stove would know a good pipe to go with it.  I asked the chimney sweep last spring if it was possible to put Duravent pipe coming off the stove, however I was told that I’d have to replace the whole run of pipe since different brands aren’t compatible.

I have never seen smoke come out of any joints in my system like you have, but i’m interested to know if/how you get a solution to your smell issues.  I think that this summer i might try to seal up the seam between the stove top adapter and the stove collar to see if that helps.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 17, 2019)

Ah ok. It might be a tolerance issue with the stove collar. Some are saying their telescoping pipe fits tightly over the BK collar. My adapter looks to be about 1/4" too large for the collar though. I think that is too loose a fit.

That is highly suspicious you get the same char smell @MissMac. That is a better way to describe it. It's not just that but my stove is also stalling and snuffing the flame below 75% air setting. So I'm almost using it without adjusting the air at all to prevent the smell. It's actually smelling right now at full open when the stove is hot but flames+draft died down.


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## Ashful (Feb 17, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Ah ok. It might be a tolerance issue with the stove collar. Some are saying their telescoping pipe fits tightly over the BK collar. My adapter looks to be about 1/4" too large for the collar though. I think that is too loose a fit.


Just to be clear, on double wall, the part that goes over the collar is not the flue.  That goes inside the collar.  The overlap part is just the heat shield on double wall, and does not need to be snug, but it can prevent the inner part from sealing tight if it bottoms out on top of the stove.


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2019)

Try eliminating the DSP adapter.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 22, 2019)

I got the 45's and started taking apart the pipe tonight.
First thing: there is a lot of creosote buildup in the stove pipe after ~1 cord of well seasoned wood. Not sure how much to expect, but we have been doing a lot of running inactive because of the short burn times.  I bet the rest of the chimney is equally coated and limiting the draft like it seemed the past couple weeks.

Second: I'm pretty positive the smoke/creo smell is from the DSP adapter.  The major sign is that there is quite a bit of deposits on the _outside_ of the flue collar and the outer wall of the adapter is very loose and essentially wide open.  The smoke can easily make it around the outside of the collar connector and unless there is very high draft it seems easy for it to start seeping out around the base. It could also pull a decent amount of air from around the collar and the elbow at other times when the draft is strong.

Third: The 2ft DSP pipe fits very nicely onto the collar (both inner and outer walls) and these installers could have easily used the 3ft section they brought and my hole would have been a ft higher. I said "why use that?!" They said "Oh...you're supposed to use this adapter". 

Will update when I get everything together!  Looks like I will have to cut some pipe to bridge between the two 45's but the good news it that I will only have about 6-9" of horizontal run.  I'm really hoping it runs well after all this!


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 22, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I got the 45's and started taking apart the pipe tonight.
> First thing: there is a lot of creosote buildup in the stove pipe after ~1 cord of well seasoned wood. Not sure how much to expect, but we have been doing a lot of running inactive because of the short burn times.  I bet the rest of the chimney is equally coated and limiting the draft like it seemed the past couple weeks.
> 
> Second: I'm pretty positive the smoke/creo smell is from the DSP adapter.  The major sign is that there is quite a bit of deposits on the _outside_ of the flue collar and the outer wall of the adapter is very loose and essentially wide open.  The smoke can easily make it around the outside of the collar connector and unless there is very high draft it seems easy for it to start seeping out around the base. It could also pull a decent amount of air from around the collar and the elbow at other times when the draft is strong.
> ...



Good diagnosis. 

 I've found doing this sort of stuff yourself so valuable.  Hope you are close to your solution.


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## Ashful (Feb 23, 2019)

What Ed said.  Also, adjust those crimped ends to get tight fits on the inner tube.  More comparing = smaller ID = looser.  Smooth them out to make it tighter.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 23, 2019)

Ashful said:


> What Ed said.  Also, adjust those crimped ends to get tight fits on the inner tube.  More *comparing* = smaller ID = looser.  Smooth them out to make it tighter.



I'm all for mind over matter as a concept, but
you can compare all day, and I don't think it'll change a thing.  On the other hand, more _crimping_ might lead to a smaller ID.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 23, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> I'm all for mind over matter as a concept, but
> you can compare all day, and I don't think it'll change a thing.  On the other hand, more _crimping_ might lead to a smaller ID.


Haha.  I think the inner pipe is pretty tight on the collar now.  What do you suggest? I can straighten out the corrugations using a vice grip.  

The new 45's are barbeque-ing in my old trash gas grill right now to bake the paint a little bit .  The stove top meter on them is reading 250-300°F @ surface.  Pretty close to what it reads on a high burn.  I propped them up on some fireplace tools and set it to medium-low with the lid cracked.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Feb 23, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Haha.  I think the inner pipe is pretty tight on the collar now.  What do you suggest? I can straighten out the corrugations using a vice grip.
> 
> The new 45's are barbeque-ing in my old trash gas grill right now to bake the paint a little bit .  The stove top meter on them is reading 250-300°F @ surface.  Pretty close to what it reads on a high burn.  I propped them up on some fireplace tools and set it to medium-low with the lid cracked.


I've done this exactly twice, and it was on aluminum gutter downspout, so others feedback might be more valuable.  But, here goes- I started with round pipe and used needle nose pliers to add crimps around the entire circle.  To tighten back up, I just twisted the pliers in the opposite direction of making the crimps.

If it's already tight, I'd try it as is.  Only if I found leakage would I take it to the vice (closed), slip the crimps over the top of the vice where the jaws stick out, and bang on the crimps with a hammer, which is how I'd do it with steel stovepipe.  But only if I really needed to.


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## Ashful (Feb 23, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> I'm all for mind over matter as a concept, but
> you can compare all day, and I don't think it'll change a thing.  On the other hand, more _crimping_ might lead to a smaller ID.



Hah... spelling/grammar checker got me again!

Here’s what you need to adjust crimps.  Also available for $3 less at Walmart, or $10 more at Home Depot.  

https://m.lowes.com/pd/stanley-fatm...MIt5Ti8JHS4AIVxISzCh1JtgsqEAQYASABEgJtHPD_BwE


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## vwmike (Feb 23, 2019)

Glad to see your not giving up and making some progress!  I also hate how many “pro” installers tend to put things together with out
much thought at all just to go on to the next one.


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## AlbergSteve (Feb 23, 2019)

That looks like a huge space between the inner and outer pipe. This is what mine looks like.  The inner pipe you can see in this photo sits tight to the collar weld and the outer  pipe sits flush on top of the stove.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 23, 2019)

@AlbergSteve Wow, that is much tighter. 
Unfortunately in mine there is still a little bit of crimping pipe protruding but the end of the collar is now very snug to the inner flue pipe.  I spent a few hours to recut the short connector pipe section, crimped the inner tube, and basically press fitted it into the lower 45 with wood blocks and a mallet.  All the other joints were tightened to the bevel. It all came together nicely 

I'm still waiting for my 6" brush but all the [existing] stove pipe was brushed out with regular scrub brushes.  So pending the sweep tomorrow I will relight everything and see how it goes!


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## Ashful (Feb 23, 2019)

When you get to sweeping, if you’re like many of us, you’ll find that 70% of the crap is in the first few feet above the stove, and another 20% way up at the cap.  The mile between will be pretty clean.   I have 30 feet of pipe on one of my Ashfords, and 25 feet of it contains almost zero creosote.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 24, 2019)

Update:
-Chimney was cleaned. Maybe 1/4gal or so removed. Even coat throughout, large collection at the tee, medium buildup at 30° elbows and near cap.
-Lit a new load with enough small oak to last 3hrs. Seems much more consistent draft so far. No smoke spillage at all. 
-Two new observations:
1. At full fire startup the chimney connector used to be cool to the touch, now is is close to main stovepipe.
2. It got up to ~325°F STT, at 75% stat setting, the flames tapered smoothly where they used to pretty much get snuffed out. No creo smell at all...though the new collar pipe and/or elbows are curing a decent amount...
Once cured I'll be able to tell if the creo smell is gone.

My initial feel is that it will be able to run at 75% or lower w/o stalling.  If the wife can tolerate some more curing I'll try an overnight load...


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## Rickb (Feb 24, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Update:
> -Chimney was cleaned. Maybe 1/4gal or so removed. Even coat throughout, large collection at the tee, medium buildup at 30° elbows and near cap.
> -...



That is a lot of cleanings.  Like 3 times what I get after burning a full cord.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 25, 2019)

@Rickb that wasn't counting the 90° elbow!  There is almost that much just in the elbow.

I ran a slow overnight burn at 60% and it certainly burned great!  With 25lbs of oak/ash it was about 250°F STT 8hrs later with 4lbs of coals left.  I reloaded and we turned it down to enough to get no flames, but it quickly recouped and relighted once it cooled down.  No creo smell at all produced, just a bit of curing smell when the stove pipe surface got above 200°F. The new cat gasket, 45°s and sweeping have certainly made a large difference in performance!  It seems to have a much more controlled burn presumably because there is better flow through the stove.

If the curing smell goes away I'm going to be so happy!


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## Ludlow (Feb 25, 2019)

The connector is hot now because the buildup that was insulating it is gone, Im thinking.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 25, 2019)

@Ludlow   The connector used to be 6" higher and now dropped into the stove collar. The elbows are probably offgassing as well.


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## maple1 (Feb 25, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> The connector is hot now because the buildup that was insulating it is gone, Im thinking.



If air was being sucked in at the stove collar before and isn't now, that would make a difference also.


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## Ashful (Feb 25, 2019)

Nice!  Hopefully we can call this one a success story.  Between you and @chazcarr, this was a good weekend.


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## moresnow (Feb 25, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> No creo smell at all produced,



Lets hope your issues are behind you. Good luck!


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## spudman99 (Feb 25, 2019)

Very happy for you VCS.  You stayed with the problem and worked with the vast knowledge of this member community.  I am sure there are plenty of folks who would have turned the unit back to the dealer or blamed the manufacturer whereas you worked it out.  

I know several weeks ago you were ready to through the towel in, and I am sure your significant other was none to pleased.  Glad you seem to have it set up properly now and can enjoy the shoulder season burns that are soon to be upon us.


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## Ludlow (Feb 25, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @Ludlow   The connector used to be 6" higher and now dropped into the stove collar. The elbows are probably offgassing as well.





maple1 said:


> If air was being sucked in at the stove collar before and isn't now, that would make a difference also.



Ahh. Got it. I must have missed some of the details. Thanks.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 25, 2019)

I've been following this thread for some time. It's great to see that you figured this out!


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## begreen (Feb 25, 2019)

Good to hear this is working better and you worked it out without the extra part. I didn't like the look of that DSP adapter.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 26, 2019)

Ok, so I loaded with a big load of extra dry ash which had been causing it to spike and stall. I tried turning it down almost all the way to 55% and it snuffed out eventually for 30min.  There was a very minor hint of creo smell as it cooled from 325°F to 250°F then picked back up with a slow flame. Might have hit my stall point there. With wetter oak that probably would not happen. I can definitely work around that.

Thanks so much everyone for all the support, you guys have been amazing!


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 27, 2019)

So the curing is mostly done and it is running great on small loads. Zero smell of any kind with a 10lb load on medium or high.  The new issue that I'm having is that there seems to be a little pre-cat smoke released in the initial high blaze full of dry ash. Even if I turn down the air to 75% minutes after the ignition, the whole firebox turns into a giant fireball. I don't think it's curing smell because the flue won't be that hot at that point. Once the flames slow down or die out it seems to go away. 

Maybe is it possible my draft is TOO high now? I can always remove some pipe. I still get a little bit of smoke spillage on the occasional hot reload though and don't want that worse. 

If I had enough large oak left I don't think it would have this problem, just this 14% ash seems to be burning so hot. This new batch is full of 5lb+ logs and still burns very quickly.


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## Ashful (Feb 27, 2019)

What do you mean by “pre-cat smoke”?  From where is it emitting?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 27, 2019)

Ashful said:


> What do you mean by “pre-cat smoke”?  From where is it emitting?


It's hard to tell. No visible smoke that I've seen but it smells like normal ash smoke, not the sweet catalyzed smoke type smell (and cat is engaged). Kind of a pungent "burning" kind of smell which is typical of the ash smoke that I've burned. It just seems to build up a bit in the room.


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## lsucet (Feb 27, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It's hard to tell. No visible smoke that I've seen but it smells like normal ash smoke, not the sweet catalyzed smoke type smell (and cat is engaged). Kind of a pungent "burning" kind of smell which is typical of the ash smoke that I've burned. It just seems to build up a bit in the room.


Can be possible now is burning hotter and it curing a little more when reach higher temp?


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## spudman99 (Feb 27, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> So the curing is mostly done and it is running great on small loads. Zero smell of any kind with a 10lb load on medium or high.  The new issue that I'm having is that there seems to be a little pre-cat smoke released in the initial high blaze full of dry ash. Even if I turn down the air to 75% minutes after the ignition, the whole firebox turns into a giant fireball. I don't think it's curing smell because the flue won't be that hot at that point. Once the flames slow down or die out it seems to go away.



Is it possible you are closing the bypass too soon?  From your statement, you are turning down the air shortly after ignition, but is the bypass still open then?  My wonder is if you have achieved a sufficient char on the wood with such a quick choke of the air.  More char = less smoke in the box.  Not criticizing, just wondering?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 27, 2019)

What do you mean closing the bypass too early? It's staying well active. I don't think it matters if the bypass is opened or closed. Either warming it up while inactive or after an active reload.

It ran great today after that smokey startup. House stayed at 70°F 7:30am to 8:15pm, 22°F outside and still active. 

Do you really need 15-30min on full open or just good flames going? I could probably get the whole box nicely charred at 60-75% once the wood starts lighting because the air won't turn down much until it's up to temp.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 27, 2019)

Ah. So just checked the door gasket, it was a little loose. The top fastener slipped a little and was not that tight. Just shifted the tensioner and cranked it down. I think that was the problem. There is a good flame but it is not igniting the whole box; i.e. much more under control.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 28, 2019)

So I had the stove set ~55% and it made a lot of creo smell now 2hrs into the burn cycle. The flame didn't even go out.  Wasn't sure at first because there is a small amount of paint smell when the flue was hot. This definitely seems to be from the cat probe area again. So I hope I was just a little too low on the air and I'm not back to my original problem. If this repeats at 60% or above, this stove is going in the garbage! I'm going to be so outraged if this stove is still smelling during normal usage.


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## Ashful (Feb 28, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> What do you mean closing the bypass too early? It's staying well active. I don't think it matters if the bypass is opened or closed. Either warming it up while inactive or after an active reload.


This statement is so far wrong, in so many ways, that I assume I must be misreading you.  Please explain.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 28, 2019)

Ashful said:


> This statement is so far wrong, in so many ways, that I assume I must be misreading you.  Please explain.


Yes sorry. I was stating that firebox smoke was emitted with or w/o the bypass open.

I'm pretty sure that issue is resolved by tightening the door. The much more concerning problem is that it may have been masking the original creo problem when the stove is air is reduced down. I think some extra air was sucking in the door and keeping the draft higher. It certainly is controlling stove temp and flames better last night but have to experiment some to see if the creo smell issue was actually fixed by this stovepipe rebuild.


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## Ashful (Feb 28, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes sorry. I was stating that firebox smoke was emitted with or w/o the bypass open.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that issue is resolved by tightening the door. The much more concerning problem is that it may have been masking the original creo problem when the stove is air is reduced down. I think some extra air was sucking in the door and keeping the draft higher. It certainly is controlling stove temp and flames better last night but have to experiment some to see if the creo smell issue was actually fixed by this stovepipe rebuild.



Got it.  It looks like the guys here have gotten the issues with your setup resolved, it might be time to contact BKVP directly, and see what they can do on their end to help you get the creo smell resolved.  They have helped several others with the same situation, and I believe they’ve resolved all but one or two of those that have turned up here.


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## lsucet (Feb 28, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes sorry. I was stating that firebox smoke was emitted with or w/o the bypass open.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that issue is resolved by tightening the door. The much more concerning problem is that it may have been masking the original creo problem when the stove is air is reduced down. I think some extra air was sucking in the door and keeping the draft higher. It certainly is controlling stove temp and flames better last night but have to experiment some to see if the creo smell issue was actually fixed by this stovepipe rebuild.


I will recommend going to your lower setting on steps, not one time deal. Example, from wide open to 4 o'clock after awhile to 3 o'clock, like that till your final low setting. That helps. I have the princess and if i burn hot like i do and turn it low one time deal i get a little smell, nothing bad. I have to be real close to it and look for it but nothing around the house. Doing it on steps, no smell at all.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Feb 28, 2019)

I had no smell running on high with 10lbs tonight. It nicely held the STT at 300°F.  Now the gasket is fixed we won't rush the air down. I think that was the problem. We need to get used to the adjustment w/o the gasket leaking. My wife kept smelling the gasket leak and cranked it to 75% or 60% minutes after light up. I will be a little more careful and slowly ease it until I find this creo point. It could be just below 75%. 
The kids woke me up all last night; I'll be a little more patient...


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## Ashful (Feb 28, 2019)

A few here posted a theory that the gasket can become soaked with creosote, and emit a creo smell.  The reason I mention it is that I believe these guys only had the issue on low burns with less than optimal wood, and you seem to be only having the issue on low burns.  I don't remember your wood situation.

These two or three guys were convinced they were smelling hot creosote on the gasket, and NOT smoke leaking from the stove.

Anyway, I think most of them eventually got that issue resolved, so you may want to search out those threads and read up on it.  It was all last season (2017/18).


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 1, 2019)

So last nights 2/3 load looks like it could finish a 12+hr burn time set at ~65%.  Temp downstairs is 72 degrees, but there is a _little_ creo smell upstairs when I checked 5hrs in.  I will try slightly higher today, about 70%. BK's theory could be right about the exterior chimney getting too cold, that and/or my second 30° offset (which should have been 15°s) by the roof is still screwing the draft a little.  Performance is great though and I can load N-S now. That is such an improvement.

Wood is mostly very good. The new cord of ash is large 5lbers at 15% MC.  I'm throwing in a couple beeches which have some wetter tips at 30% but otherwise 18%. Once I found out I left the rest of that small stash for next year.

Thank you guys for the ongoing support of this saga! I will try contacting BK from here if they have some advice about how to improve creo emissions at the lower burn settings. Maybe there is some type of temporary insulation for the chimney as a test before going all in on a chase.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 1, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> So last nights 2/3 load looks like it could finish a 12+hr burn time set at ~65%.  Temp downstairs is 72 degrees, but there is a _little_ creo smell upstairs when I checked 5hrs in.  I will try slightly higher today, about 70%. BK's theory could be right about the exterior chimney getting too cold, that and/or my second 30° offset (which should have been 15°s) by the roof is still screwing the draft a little.  Performance is great though and I can load N-S now. That is such an improvement.
> 
> Wood is mostly very good. The new cord of ash is large 5lbers at 15% MC.  I'm throwing in a couple beeches which have some wetter tips at 30% but otherwise 18%. Once I found out I left the rest of that small stash for next year.
> 
> Thank you guys for the ongoing support of this saga! I will try contacting BK from here if they have some advice about how to improve creo emissions at the lower burn settings. Maybe there is some type of temporary insulation for the chimney as a test before going all in on a chase.



I think with the inherently lower flue gas temps of a cat stove you will benefit a lot from an insulated chase. For a while I wondered if this was all worth it when I had stove issues. Now that we are at the coldest part of the season so far here, I can say with absolute certainty this is all worth it. Nothing beats wood heat.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 1, 2019)

Just kind of nearly stalled again from too small splits and got some creo smell from 75% setting.  At this point my choices are insulation or garbage. I'm not sure if I'm willing to go searching for another stove and go through a whole new round of curing next season to find out if it's spraying smoke into my house.


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## Ashful (Mar 1, 2019)

That’s frustrating.  I commiserate with you.  An insulated chase might help, but it’s hard to recommend something that will take so much time and money, on the slight chance it might fix the problem.  I think those stating it will are making some assumptions, and maybe they’re right, but it’s not any guarantee.


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## Akon (Mar 1, 2019)

Sucks you're having such a tough time. If you need someone to haul it off to the dump, I'll do it free of charge. ;-)


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 1, 2019)

Just stalled again at 80% setting and 32°F out. Covered the whole room in creo smoke. I just lucked out the first couple days because of the 20°F weather. There is no actual improvement of the root issue.  Will stop complaining to you guys. Thanks for all of the support.  Watch out for it on the classified page Akon...


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## Nigel459 (Mar 1, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> ...
> Thank you guys for the ongoing support of this saga! I will try contacting BK from here if they have some advice about how to improve creo emissions at the lower burn settings. Maybe there is some type of temporary insulation for the chimney as a test before going all in on a chase.


Later same day...


ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> ...Will stop complaining to you guys. Thanks for all of the support.  Watch out for it on the classified page Akon...


What did I miss? What did BK say?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 1, 2019)

@Nigel459 
I haven't contacted BK again. Last time two of them told me to get a chase and then come back to them. Don't think they'll say anything different.  Dishing out $5K with $500/yr heat savings is going to be a tough sell. After this load stalled at 80% air setting I have low hopes of this stove working properly. Basically back to 3hr burn times or 8hr burns with the house above 80°F.  Unfortunately I've put myself in a situation where no other party will claim responsibility.


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## maple1 (Mar 1, 2019)

If the warmer outside temp made it worse, that sounds like inadequate draft.


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## begreen (Mar 1, 2019)

I'm very sorry this has turned out to be such a hassle for you. You certainly have tried hard to make it work. With almost 25 ft of vertical rise one would not expect draft to be an issue and telling you now to put a chase around it is BS, especially considering it works poorly even in mild weather.


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## lsucet (Mar 1, 2019)

Is the tstat working correctly? Are you sure when you turn the dial, the shaft is turning too? What if the knob is not tight to the shaft?
Just some ideas on top of my head.


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## Ashful (Mar 1, 2019)

begreen said:


> I'm very sorry this has turned out to be such a hassle for you. You certainly have tried hard to make it work. With almost 25 ft of vertical rise one would not expect draft to be an issue and telling you now to put a chase around it is BS, especially considering it works poorly even in mild weather.


Agreed, but we don't really need to debate it, it takes all of $50 and 5 minutes to properly MEASURE your draft.  That would settle any debate on how good or bad his draft is, but not whether draft is actually the cause of his trouble.  

I feel bad we weren't able to help, but understand the OP's position.  You win some, you lose some.


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## Ludlow (Mar 1, 2019)

So cats really are dogs!


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## Woody Stover (Mar 2, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> So cats really are dogs!


You might be over-generalizing there, podner.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 8, 2019)

I was wondering about the tstat as well. I don't think it's slipping; it is very sensitive. It almost seems like it closes too hard at higher temperatures, snuffs out the flame and kills the draft. I guess it should normally lose the flames at some medium setting.

It has been in the 20's so I needed it running at 80% to stay warm. Now it looks like we are back to 30's and partial E-W loads to try making it through the night.

I will look at measuring the draft, but having a little trouble figuring out how to do the pipe connections without drilling a huge hole in my already imperfect chimney. I'd guess I'm at or above spec with full open, but when up to temp and/or stat reduced I'm getting close to no draft. Just seems to be dying and stalling very easily with a very hot flue. Surface temps of dsp are > 275°F on high.

Second, I noticed my bypass lever is closing about 30 degrees down where before it was about 0 degrees. It now creaks and clicks at the end of the travel. Could something be slipping?


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## SpaceBus (Mar 9, 2019)

I hate to be that guy, but I think your wood had too much moisture. The only way you are killing a fire below 80% draft with 20'+ chimney is with marginal wood. This is my first year of burning full time and I have this issue too. Try getting some bio bricks or similar and see if you still have the issue. I need very little draft for those little guys to take off and provide a ton of heat.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 9, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I hate to be that guy, but I think your wood had too much moisture. The only way you are killing a fire below 80% draft with 20'+ chimney is with marginal wood. This is my first year of burning full time and I have this issue too. Try getting some bio bricks or similar and see if you still have the issue. I need very little draft for those little guys to take off and provide a ton of heat.


I started off with ash that was 20% MC _last year_, covered single row.  Most of it was 14-15% MC this year. One week I did throw in a few partially covered beech logs with 35% ends and they were certainly killing the flame much easier. I've purged those out and it has helped. Yes, someone has mentioned the wood quality in one of these 200 posts 
If I were going to buy bio bricks at $125/ton I would save about $50/ton running my NG boiler!

I'm sitting here now with STT around 450°F, tstat at 80%, 34°F out/ 72°F in, stove warmed up for 1hr with 15lbs of dry ash and oak. It's just barely making a flame.  If I turned it down even a hair it would snuff it out and start making creo.  This is doing well babysitting the tstat but it's still going to be above 75°F in here pretty soon.  The other issue is loading < 10lbs where it may not be able to keep the draft going with the tstat reduced.


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## maple1 (Mar 9, 2019)

If using NG would save me that much vs. biobricks at 125/ton, I might be tempted to forget all about burning wood.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 9, 2019)

maple1 said:


> If using NG would save me that much vs. biobricks at 125/ton, I might be tempted to forget all about burning wood.


Sure, but it adds up eventually if you cut your own wood. Would be much easier to pay back if the stove could stay running at medium. And don't forget dropping that gym membership!


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## moresnow (Mar 9, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I was wondering about the tstat as well. I don't think it's slipping; it is very sensitive. It almost seems like it closes too hard at higher temperatures, snuffs out the flame and kills the draft. I guess it should normally lose the flames at some medium setting.
> 
> It has been in the 20's so I needed it running at 80% to stay warm. Now it looks like we are back to 30's and partial E-W loads to try making it through the night.
> 
> ...



Just a thought. Where you set your stat is completely independent of what anybody else sets there's at. Its completely dependent on your draft. Something to consider. Set it where the stove performs optimally. Don't try to attain (recommended) settings that your system wont support. Wont work.

Your bypass lever appears correct now. Any chance you possibly may have not been getting it locked in completely before? Dunno.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 9, 2019)

@moresnow 
Strange, the bypass was very tight before but it didn't slide and clunk. The door always looked tight against the gasket.

I understand the stat will run uniquely, it's just that the stove will emit creo below 80% stat which is 450°F STT with a full load.


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## moresnow (Mar 9, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @moresnow
> Strange, the bypass was very tight before but it didn't slide and clunk. The door always looked tight against the gasket.
> 
> I understand the stat will run uniquely, it's just that the stove will emit creo below 80% stat which is 450°F STT with a full load.



You were not locking the bypass in correctly without the "slide and clunk". Quite possibly this was affecting your overall performance. Now you are locking the bypass correctly and it has possibly changed your stat settings some. Talk about chasing your tail! Wow.  Your dealer was delinquent by not making sure you were aware of this procedure. Its also described in your operators manual. 

450+ STT is where I like to let my stove hover for as long as possible. Sounds like a good sweet spot if it is working for you. No matter where the stat is pointed.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 9, 2019)

I'm saying it was pretty tight even without the clunk. The gap between the plates doesn't look any different.
I just tried this morning with the clicked BP and was right on the edge of making creo smell. 450-500°F STT is about a 6-8hr burn with Ash, 1st floor at 80°F @ 35°F outside. It got up to 77°F with 15lbs of ash today. Its a 2400sq ft colonial.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 9, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Second, I noticed my bypass lever is closing about 30 degrees down where before it was about 0 degrees. It now creaks and clicks at the end of the travel. Could something be slipping?


That's what mine looks and sounds like.


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## moresnow (Mar 9, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I'm saying it was pretty tight even without the clunk. The gap between the plates doesn't look any different.
> I just tried this morning with the clicked BP and was right on the edge of making creo smell. 450-500°F STT is about a 6-8hr burn with Ash, 1st floor at 80°F @ 35°F outside. It got up to 77°F with 15lbs of ash today. Its a 2400sq ft colonial.



Damn Sam! Talk about toasty


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 9, 2019)

moresnow said:


> Damn Sam! Talk about toasty


Yes. Exactly. My wife likes it that way at least. I can't really turn it down any less so its either 2hr burn times, 80 degrees with 8hrs burns, leave window open and waste heat, or get creosote in the house.

Something was catching at 180° turn of the bypass and it wouldn't really go any further. It finally wore down enough that it slides past.


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## Mnpellet (Mar 9, 2019)

Did you ever get your stove pipe joints to fit tight like they should?  Have you tried bio bricks or maybe some cut up 2x4s something you know is dry?  If so maybe it really is the chimney configuration. BlazeKing recommends straight up chimney we know that. We also know if going through wall they recommend at least three foot vertical first and also an insulated chase. It’s really a great stove I hope you get it figured out.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 9, 2019)

@Mnpellet It's dry.

If you look at Page 7, #156 I rebuilt my entire stove pipe two weeks ago.  It's all tight together, just about as tight as you can get with this Selkirk pipe.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 10, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @Mnpellet It's dry.
> 
> If you look at Page 7, #156 I rebuilt my entire stove pipe two weeks ago.  It's all tight together, just about as tight as you can get with this Selkirk pipe.



You gave it your all. Sucks it didn't work out.

I've all sorts of other crazy ideas, like getting an air filter with activated carbon in the room,  asking BK to send you a new thermostat, etc.,  but I suspect you've had enough already.

While I haven't a clue whether an insulated chase would fix you issue, if you did it yourself, it wouldn't be nearly as expensive.

Ok, I'll stop now.

  We'll welcome you with open arms into the tube stove family.  Never had a lick of creo smell with my tube stove, and no expensive cats to worry about, either.  Just good, clean, free, beautiful wood heat.


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## Mnpellet (Mar 10, 2019)

What do you think is wrong with his thermostat?  


ED 3000 said:


> You gave it your all. Sucks it didn't work out.
> 
> I've all sorts of other crazy ideas, like getting an air filter with activated carbon in the room,  asking BK to send you a new thermostat, etc.,  but I suspect you've had enough already.
> 
> ...


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 10, 2019)

Mnpellet said:


> What do you think is wrong with his thermostat?


Honestly, I have no idea.  You'll notice I said I had all sorts of crazy ideas.

But, if I'd spent the money for the premium product, I'd be troubleshooting every single part.  And, as he has already fixed the pipe to no avail, I'd want to try replacing the most complex part of the system.  As I have no intimate knowledge of the bowels of the stove, it was just a "flyer".

Who knows?  Maybe what smells like a bunch of creo odor to him, would be unnoticed by the rest of us.  I doubt it, but that's why I also suggested the carbon filter air cleaner.  Treat the symptom if we can't treat the disease.

There are lots of other things that could be wrong, a bad inch of weld in the steel that's buried under the cast shell, around the combustor, for one.  

But, we all have our limits, and seems like it's been reached.


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## Mnpellet (Mar 10, 2019)

It possibly has absolutely nothing to do with the stove as well, that’s what makes this one a challenge. I believe the draft has never been measured is that correct?  


ED 3000 said:


> Honestly, I have no idea.  You'll notice I said I had all sorts of crazy ideas.
> 
> But, if I'd spent the money for the premium product, I'd be troubleshooting every single part.  And, as he has already fixed the pipe to no avail, I'd want to try replacing the most complex part of the system.  As I have no intimate knowledge of the bowels of the stove, it was just a "flyer".
> 
> ...


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## Ashful (Mar 10, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> .... a bad inch of weld in the steel that's buried under the cast shell, around the combustor, for one.


There was a BK smoke smell case a year ago, that turned out to be exactly this, creo oozing thru a missed weld, and baking outside the stove.  I can’t be 100% sure of my memory, but I seem to remember BK replaced that stove with a new one.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> There was a BK smoke smell case a year ago, that turned out to be exactly this, creo oozing thru a missed weld, and baking outside the stove.  I can’t be 100% sure of my memory, but I seem to remember BK replaced that stove with a new one.


Any chance you recall how they finally figured out that's what it was?  Perhaps someone came out and looked at it?  The cast over steel is a nice system, but it probably make diagnosing something like this tough.


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## Ashful (Mar 10, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> Any chance you recall how they finally figured out that's what it was?  Perhaps someone came out and looked at it?  The cast over steel is a nice system, but it probably make diagnosing something like this tough.



The poster could see it, and even posted a photo of it.  I’m not sure if it was even a cast over design, but it’s pretty easy to remove all the panels.  Takes maybe five minutes.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> The poster could see it, and even posted a photo of it.  I’m not sure if it was even a cast over design, but it’s pretty easy to remove all the panels.  Takes maybe five minutes.


That could be very valuable information! 

 I'm not going to go back through all 9 pages of this thread, to see if anyone suggested taking 5 minutes to pop the cast panels off.   Particularly since I don't have this stove, and didn't know that.  

But, since it's so easy, maybe, someone who uses this stove could suggest popping the panels off and looking for whatever oozing creo looks like,  to help Valley out, before he throws in the towel.  

We are still rooting for you, Valley!


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## Ashful (Mar 10, 2019)

Good idea, Ed.  I’ll post directions later tonight, when I’m at a real keyboard.


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## Ashful (Mar 10, 2019)

Okay, prepared to be underwhelmed.  This is simple:

1.  Remove cat probe from hole, it just lifts out.
2.  Remove top, it just lifts off.
3.  Remove sides.  They also just lift off, but you may need to loosen the bolts they hang on first, a thin 7/16" wrench will be needed.

That's it, unless you want to also strip off the ash pan tray assembly.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 10, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Okay, prepared to be underwhelmed.  This is simple:
> 
> 1.  Remove cat probe from hole, it just lifts out.
> 2.  Remove top, it just lifts off.
> ...


Thanks!  

Can it be safely burned with the cladding off?  Seems like the best way to see if something is leaking or smouldering.  But, safety first.  

I do hope this reveals something.  It's been a long road, and VCS has been game.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 10, 2019)

Thanks guys.  There could be something to this bypass lever issue.  Wondering if maybe the bypass was possibly puffing a little air into the flue while closed and causing backdraft through the cat probe.  The bypass lever was very tight initially. It likely would have taken some bumps with a 8lb sledge to get it all the way closed where it goes now. It also had a little "click" (not the "clunk") so it seemed like it was closing all the way.  

My dad was visiting the past week and turned it down to about 50% with a few logs and it built up tons of creo vapor throughout the house.  I don't remember if the bypass was closed all the way. Since then we've had no noticeable creosote smell in the last week even with the windows all closed.  Ensuring to clear chips from the door ledge has prevented all the startup smoke. After a hot warm up I left a 20lbs E-W load overnight at 75% and there was no smell upstairs in the morning (nice good coals in the morning as well).   
Too early to call but it's been doing pretty well even with the warmer temps. I might push it a little and try a bigger N-S load below 75% when I'll be around to air out the house. 

I've removed the panels when rebuilding the stove pipe and found no easily visible cracks in any of the welds... I can't imagine why that would cause creosote emission on lower burns.  If there is something that obvious, BK better hand deliver a new replacement!


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## begreen (Mar 10, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Can it be safely burned with the cladding off?  Seems like the best way to see if something is leaking or smouldering.  But, safety first.
> 
> I do hope this reveals something.  It's been a long road, and VCS has been game.


The clearances will be dramatically changed. Technically they should be 36" in all directions as the stove is untested in that configuration.


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## Ashful (Mar 11, 2019)

If your bypass was that hard to close, it was likely obstructed with some chimney chunks on the gasket.  Mine were both like that after I hired the dealer to do my first year cleaning, they apparently didn’t know you had to sweep all of the crud that falls out of the chimney into the cat chamber, they just cammed that lever over hard to compress all of that crap into the gasket.  Between that and two other issues I had with them not doing what they said they would, they aren’t coming back.

The best way to get at that area is to pull the stove pipe.  Second best is to contort yourself and reach up in there from below.  Just make sure that bypass gasket is clean all around, no bits of crud on it.


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## MtnBURN (Mar 11, 2019)

^^^^^^What Ashful said. ^^^^^

Since starting to burn pine and oak vs. cottonwood...(and yes...my wood is dry) I've noticed quite a bit more creo >inside< my stove and a bit more in the pipe. Seemed like the draft was struggling a bit last week ....so I ran the brush up and got maybe a quart jar full of crap...and as Ash said....found chunks/creo dust around the gasket as well. I think I may have cammed it over with crap in it recently...and as a result...I did the bill test and found it was looser than it should be...tightened it down....and things seem much better now draft-wise. I also vacuumed the cat face. Looked behind it but it looked pretty good. Since I burn all the time...I'm gonna pop for a new cat/gaskets all around next season in the house stove. Everybody else will just get new gaskets.

Something you might also check since you have lots of creo smell....is to see if there is buildup behind the inside panels in the stove. Bend a coathanger or small metal rod and run it up/over the panels and down into that cavity and agitate it around. I did this over and over....from the front and the rear....and I got a lot of scale/baked on creo/crap out of my stove....far more than I expected... so in the future I will be on it/watching it/cleaning it far more often. It may also be up around the intake air tubes as well. Definitely was in my stove.  The first fire after the cleanout I smelled some creo smell for the first time ever in my stove.....though I have to say after cleaning the pipe and messing with it all the whole house kinda reeked for bit of creo. There are definitely a lot of nooks and crannies >inside< these stoves.

Anyway....just a thought......and much respect for hanging in there.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 11, 2019)

Ok, feeling more confident! Set at ~70% today with 25lbs of ash and locust loaded E-W. Room is 77°F, but wife stays there is no smell! It's 48°F out. Still tons of coals after 6hrs. Doing great with smoke spillage as well for whatever reason.

Will try a bigger N-S load tomorrow I think.

@Ashful The bypass was that tight before I started burning. Trust me, I played with that thing for hours before it got installed.  I checked the bypass gasket during the pipe cleaning and I had swept up the chips from the cleaning about 3 weeks ago.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 11, 2019)

MtnBURN said:


> Bend a coathanger or small metal rod and run it up/over the panels and down into that cavity and agitate it around. I did this over and over....from the front and the rear....and I got a lot of scale/baked on creo/crap out of my stove....far more than I expected... so in the future I will be on it/watching it/cleaning it far more often.


That sounds like a royal PITA...no thanks.


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## Ashful (Mar 11, 2019)

Just grabbing at ideas, here.  One thing I may have mentioned before, is that some houses have a propensity to pull chimney smoke back into the house with the name-up air.  My U-shaped house with a chimney at each end can sometimes do this.  With the BKs ability to turn way down, it’s possible that smoke has a more acrid smell than others, which may be contributing to a few of the smoke/creo smell cases.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 11, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Just grabbing at ideas, here.  One thing I may have mentioned before, is that some houses have a propensity to pull chimney smoke back into the house with the name-up air.  My U-shaped house with a chimney at each end can sometimes do this.  With the BKs ability to turn way down, it’s possible that smoke has a more acrid smell than others, which may be contributing to a few of the smoke/creo smell cases.


Yep.  Good thoughts.

  I'm on the side of a ridge, the prevailing wind comes down the slope, hits the four massive cedars on the opposite side of the house, and creates a downdraft right down onto the top of the house and chimney.  Despite having a wonderful draft, sometime on restart, the smoke blows straight down around the house. If it were an acrid smoke, it would be terrible.

Cutting down the cedars would solve this, but there's not a chance in hell I'm cutting down these majestic trees.  So, I pay close attention on restart.  And a low burning stove might not work for me because of this. 

Perhaps VCS could take a survey of his situation and see if he has a downdraft around the house.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 11, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Just grabbing at ideas, here...some houses have a propensity to pull chimney smoke back into the house


I didn't go back to look but I'm pretty sure he smelled it more in the stove area.


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## MtnBURN (Mar 11, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> That sounds like a royal PITA...no thanks.



Yeah..I'd guess doing something like that every 3 years might take away your valuable time here speaking negatively about a stove you don't own ,huh? 

There's certainly a royal (Queen wave) PITA in the mix here but it isn't a BK stove..


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 11, 2019)

Yes, the main smell comes from the cat probe hole and/or flue collar. I have had a little bit of smoke waft into the house with the window open on rare occasions.

I'm cooling down the house from 77 degrees (stat set at about 65%!) and trying a N-S half load set about 60%. We'll see how it goes! The long burn time today had a nice even heat. The furthest master bed was 74 and downstairs was 76 with stove running at medium all day.

Note: I have no confirmed creo smell with the bypass fully closed.  I was worried but had no real creo yet. I may have to change the title if that is not the case!

Last, I will stick the bbq glove up near the gasket while reloading to clear any debris...


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## weatherguy (Mar 12, 2019)

I had a smoke smell with my stove this year, turned out to be the bypass gasket. Hope yours is figured out, you have a good stove.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 12, 2019)

@weatherguy what happened in your case?

So I ran it at about 55% stat setting with a nice good warm up and 30lbs loaded N-S. Smell nothing upstairs. I put my nose over the probe right when it hit temp and smelled a tiny waft, but then a minute later it was completely clean again running at a low rate.

I'm pretty sure this was it guys! 

I wiped around 3 accessible sides of the bypass gasket and there was a small amount of debris, nothing that should block the door.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @weatherguy what happened in your case?
> 
> So I ran it at about 55% stat setting with a nice good warm up and 30lbs loaded N-S. Smell nothing upstairs. I put my nose over the probe right when it hit temp and smelled a tiny waft, but then a minute later it was completely clean again running at a low rate.
> 
> ...


Happy for you.  And, nice job with your persistence.  Was afraid we were losing you here towards the end.  

I think I noticed that you did change the title?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 12, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> Happy for you.  And, nice job with your persistence.  Was afraid we were losing you here towards the end.
> 
> I think I noticed that you did change the title?


Yes, title is changed for now .  Apparently my wife was up a few times last night and did not smell anything upstairs. I was also up once.  Had probably 1-2hrs left of active coals this morning.  Started a quick full reload and out the door in about 20 minutes. I set it close to 50% for the day, let's see how it runs.  At some point I can see it stalling and still making some smell, but that should be gone with practice...


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## Ashful (Mar 12, 2019)

So, to review, the issue was that the bypass was’t closing properly?  If I scroll back around post #210, it seems you finally got it to cam over, and that’s where you stopped having the problem?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 12, 2019)

@Ashful Yes that is my current theory.  Time will tell if the symptoms are gone completely.  I believe the bypass had been jammed and was partially cracked open.  That would cause it to both blow smoke toward the cat probe hole and also stall easily because the flow wasn't completely going through the combustor. It also makes sense that there was more smoke out the cap then expected while running at medium or high.  I was getting large plumes of smoke with the bypass closed if there were large flames going in the box.  The smoke seems greatly reduced now.

After 250+ turns of the bypass lever it seems to have worn whatever resistance was there and closes fully.  It wouldn't go past level.  Now it goes to about 30° below level (as seen in picture). There is a little something catching while reopening now but it can be forced through.


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## spudman99 (Mar 12, 2019)

I likewise commend you VCS for staying with the stove and working through the issues.  You clearly were frustrated but reached out to the Hearth.com community for solutions . Without this forum it is doubtful this issue would have been resolved, and you would have returned the product.  

Just let us know what day you are having an open house for forum members and what we can bring 

Edit - Picture of bypass lever is post #199 on page 8 for those wishing to see the level


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 12, 2019)

I think another diagnostic test should be to do the paper/dollar bill test with the bypass gasket. I would expect it should hold paper just like the door gasket?


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## SpaceBus (Mar 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I think another diagnostic test should be to do the paper/dollar bill test with the bypass gasket. I would expect it should hold paper just like the door gasket?


Yes, this is correct


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## moresnow (Mar 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> There is a little something catching while reopening now but it can be forced through.



I have this happen off and on. Never hindered operation here. Probably deposits.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm pretty sure there is a defect in the bypass cam surface or bypass shaft that caused this problem. I will inspect it when I do the spring sweeping but for now I'm going to try to finally enjoy the stove and cross my fingers that the creosote smell issues are finished.


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## lsucet (Mar 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I think another diagnostic test should be to do the paper/dollar bill test with the bypass gasket. I would expect it should hold paper just like the door gasket?


It will have some resistance but it will not grab it  like the door.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 12, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I believe the bypass had been jammed and was partially cracked open.  That would cause it to both blow smoke toward the cat probe hole and also stall easily because the flow wasn't completely going through the combustor. It also makes sense that there was more smoke out the cap then expected while running at medium or high.  I was getting large plumes of smoke with the bypass closed if there were large flames going in the box.  The smoke seems greatly reduced now.
> After 250+ turns of the bypass lever it seems to have worn whatever resistance was there and closes fully.  It wouldn't go past level.  Now it goes to about 30° below level (as seen in picture). There is a little something catching while reopening now but it can be forced through.


It would appear that you have finally gotten it figured out. That's great, and it's no doubt a big relief! 
Can you pretty easily get the pipe off to access the bypass area? If not, I might be inclined to put a telescoping pipe on there, if that's possible.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 12, 2019)

Oh no!! The dreaded creosote is back tonight! I loaded at 9 and it rocketed up to high range after slowly turning to 65% stat setting. It had good wispy flames for 15min, started to smell just a little creo coming out, then the flame went out and lots of creo smell came out. The upstairs is full of it. Window is back open and doors are closed losing all my heating for the night 

The only difference is that I threw in ONE sycamore chunk. The rest ash. That syc stash was measured at 25% MC in September, but it's very difficult to check because it doesn't split. I'll have to purge out the sycamore and take it easier. I hope it's just the wood 

If that's it, it's way too sensitive to the wood quality. I can't measure every log I throw in there! Not sure what to do. Such a let down. I don't know what this means about the bypass. Could it be all wood quality? It doesn't make sense!


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 12, 2019)

I checked the stove and it cooled down and stopped emitting creo, unfortunately there is quite a lot upstairs to air out. I had to raise the stat to about 75%.

Is anyone else's BK that sensitive to MC? I will check the sycamore tomorrow and see, but doubt it is over 25% MC if that.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 12, 2019)

I'm *really* struggling to see how the bypass gasket has anything to do with smoke smell outside of the stove. 

The bypass lever not camming all the way over could have been a rough burr on the contact surfaces between the lever rod and the adjustable ramp that it cams against. Mine is nice and smooth for the first week after lubing it then it gets rough after the lube gets burned off and needs a bit more welly to get it to to go all the way over. I don't bother lubing it any more.


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## SculptureOfSound (Mar 12, 2019)

I hate to see this because I know how much it sucks to gave your install give you problems (I don't have a BK but I had weird fumes..ended up being the Roxul against the unit, pulled the stove and did a major cleaning to get rid of all the fibers everywhere, took something like 20 hours - don't ask). Thankfully that rectified my situation because honestly if I couldn't burn without fumes I was going to let the stove sit cold all season... wasn't willing to risk it with a one year old in the house.

I think I'd throw in the towel in your situation just for the kids' sake. All that creo smoke can't be good. really sucks that the dealer has abandoned you. Maybe you could disconnect the stove, take it outside and do some kind of smoke test (burn a smoke bomb in it??? Not sure the best approach) and see if there are any bad welds or other areas the smoke is leaking out


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## Mnpellet (Mar 12, 2019)

So was that 25% on a fresh split at room temperature?  Are you running fresh load on high for 20-30 minuets before turning thermostat down?


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## SpaceBus (Mar 13, 2019)

Could the smoke be entering your house after it leaves the top of the flue? You keep mentioning the flame getting snuffed out, isn't that the point of the cat stove? From what I understand cat stove run best when there isn't an active flame and the cat is burning smoke from smoldering wood. This would mean no visible flame and proper operation so long as the cat stays in the active range.


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Could the smoke be entering your house after it leaves the top of the flue? You keep mentioning the flame getting snuffed out, isn't that the point of the cat stove? From what I understand cat stove run best when there isn't an active flame and the cat is burning smoke from smoldering wood. This would mean no visible flame and proper operation so long as the cat stays in the active range.


Yes, cat stoves run best when the cat is active, but visible flame does not diminish the quality of heating when a flame is present. It's not the point of a cat stove. Many cat owners have to run their stoves at a high enough rate so that visible flames are present.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

So update from this morning. Sycamore is very dry at 17%. Just split one larger ugly this morning. The wetter looking ash is no more than 20%. For about 1hr it was fine this morning, no smell at all with 25°F outside. I turned it down after about 15-20min slowly to about 65% and it slowed down at mid medium range.  My wife says there was a very faint amount of creo smell about 2hrs afterwards and it aired out in just a few minutes with the window open upstairs.  It had warmed to 32°F.

The reoccurring trends throughout this project:

Smaller and lighter woods heat up the box too hot and the stat turns down to far too low of a level for my setup.  That's what happened last night.  The other nights were not completely filled which means it is less likely to get the stat as hot. Plus I was running some locust which burns slower.
Outside temp: Seems to be some sub-optimal range from 30-38 degrees where the draft is lower but the chimney cools too quickly. Above that the chimney stays warmer.
In general everything seems to have made an improvement: the 3ft extension, the 45's, removing the adapter, bypass fully closed.  I don't have a draft measurement setup yet still but I'm pretty confident the issue is that my setup can't reliably support tstat below 75% if the stove is too hot. Tiny flames to no flame can't be supported with my draft.  It turns down too much and effectively stalls out the wood until it cools enough to get the flow high enough.  Where it is running now I can support some relatively good burn times over 10hrs with little to no creo emission. That is a huge improvement.  This may be sustainable if I keep my wood averaging above 5lbs vs 1-2lbs and use 20+MBTU wood that burns slow. I have to be careful to not let the box get too hot during startup.

If I want to play it safe I can go back to E-W loads and get nice even 6-8hr burn times with only about 20lbs of wood and there is no creo emitted.  I'll see how it's running the next couple days and see if there is a good procedure that keeps it running clean with N-S loads...


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2019)

You're a patient fellow.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

@begreen
Not sure what else I can do after throwing down almost $10K on this install. I can give up and throw away at least half of that or try to limp along and try to enjoy the stove as best as possible.  I'm sure most people have a little smoke spillage at some point in the season. Now it doesn't seems any worse than a little smoke spillage (a small smell for no more than 15min or so every few days).


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2019)

It's an odd situation. The thermostat is supposed to prevent the firebox from getting too hot. Smoke getting into the house is not a normal thing. If it happens in our house, I hear about it quickly. The stove still has high value. If problems persist there is the option of selling the stove at a slight loss to recoup that cost and then invest it in a different stove using the current flue/hearth.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

Yes, but I won't be able to recoup the other $6k in install costs.  I'm not sure there is another stove that will suit our needs.  Any other cat stove will likely have the same draft issues and a tube stove will either run way too hot or have poor burn times. If it puts out 75kBTU for 3 hours that room will be 90 degrees and the other rooms will be at 60 degrees without the boiler running.  Then I'll have to load a cold stove 6 hours later.  The one potential option could be to downgrade to an Ashford 20 and run it at higher temps though I might not get the burn times I need.  Not sure if that will have a harder time trying to heat the huge flue volume.

Other options for keeping the AF30 would be to run a chase and remove the extra 30° elbows or run the flue through the house with two 45's offset to the right position through the floor.

Like I said, I can run the stove E-W for 8 hours with no problems and it puts out nice even heat the whole time.  It can run great on high N-S loaded for about 8 hours as well when it's in the 20's or below.  Unfortunately I'm usually out of the house for at least 10hrs and I get very inconsistent help reloading the stove.

I'm certainly not the only person that has had creo problems with a BK.  Many people I've talked to have stalled their BK at least once or twice a season and have gotten creo smell.  If I had known there would be a risk of this I would have done things completely different.  At a minimum I'd would have done the chimney completely different. Now I'm stuck trying to deal with what I have.


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## Highbeam (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> If it puts out 75kBTU for 3 hours that room will be 90 degrees and the other rooms will be at 60 degrees without the boiler running.



When a manufacturer says "max output of 75k btu" they don't mean that it has to be run at 75k btu or even that it is capable of putting out 75k btu for more than a second. It's just the peak possible. Most stoves, even the noncats, have some ability to be turned down. At least the marketing on the BK specifies a more useful maximum output for a specific number of hours.

All BKs have about the same range of outputs, it's just the fuel tank size that varies. The only reason to go to a 20 box is for the slight difference in physical size or the lower purchase price.

Your cold Dr. Seuss chimney on the outside of the house is likely a contributor to poor draft at low settings. I would suggest measuring draft strength but to do that you run the stove at full throttle which doesn't tell you much about draft strength at low output settings where you have trouble.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> When a manufacturer says "max output of 75k btu" they don't mean that it has to be run at 75k btu or even that it is capable of putting out 75k btu for more than a second. It's just the peak possible. Most stoves, even the noncats, have some ability to be turned down.



Yes sure, I might be exaggerating with the numbers but I think I'll have a much harder time with a non-cat stove trying to get it to last 8+ hours and keep a reasonable heat output.  My friend nearby has a 2.0cu. ft Jotul with similar house layout and he's been loading it one log at a time to keep his room a minimum of 75°F most of the winter.  He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F.  That sounds miserable.


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## Mnpellet (Mar 13, 2019)

So I’m trying to understand why EW vs NS loading would make a difference if it’s a draft problem?  I’m sure I read something wrong but seems you have less trouble with EW loading?  Does wind direction outside make a difference that you noticed?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

I can load 20lbs E-W in the back of the stove, leave the stat above 75-80% and it runs at low/medium for about 8 hours. No creosote smell because the box never gets hot enough to turn down the tstat and there is good flow through the stove throughout the whole burn.  It pretty much burns one log at a time because it blocks the air from reaching the other wood.


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes sure, I might be exaggerating with the numbers but I think I'll have a much harder time with a non-cat stove trying to get it to last 8+ hours and keep a reasonable heat output.  My friend nearby has a 2.0cu. ft Jotul with similar house layout and he's been loading it one log at a time to keep his room a minimum of 75°F most of the winter.  He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F.  That sounds miserable.


Many of us have heated our houses just fine with bobcats for years.  I am not saying that is the right solution for you but noncats can work very well.  

Btw just because your neighbor can't figure out how to make his stove work for him really has no bearing on how it would work for you.


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## Highbeam (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes sure, I might be exaggerating with the numbers but I think I'll have a much harder time with a non-cat stove trying to get it to last 8+ hours and keep a reasonable heat output.  My friend nearby has a 2.0cu. ft Jotul with similar house layout and he's been loading it one log at a time to keep his room a minimum of 75°F most of the winter.  He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F.  That sounds miserable.



Lots of people are able to do a better job with noncats than your friend. That said, my house is 75 inside right now (on purpose) and has been since I loaded last night at 6pm and will still be 75 when I reload at 6 pm tonight. That constant 24 hour thermostatic heat output from the BK is perfect for my particular home. A pellet stove would probably be able to match the performance of a good cat stove if you can tolerate the side effects of pellet heat.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

bholler said:


> Many of us have heated our houses just fine with bobcats for years.  I am not saying that is the right solution for you but noncats can work very well.
> 
> Btw just because your neighbor can't figure out how to make his stove work for him really has no bearing on how it would work for you.



Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.

@Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours.  It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs.  Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off (not doing great this year but that is because windows are open and we have been trying to keep creo smoke out of the rooms).

If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.
> 
> @Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours.  It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs.  Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off (not doing great this year but that is because windows are open and we have been trying to keep creo smoke out of the rooms).
> 
> If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.


I was abke to do that with my regency 3100 pretty well.  Of course it was not as even and constant as the princess i am currently using.  But it was just fine and it will be again next season when it goes back in.


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## Highbeam (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.
> 
> @Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours.  It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs.  Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off.
> 
> If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.



I already had a noncat in my house and upgraded to the BK. The whole family much prefers the ugly princess stove with almost no visible flame due to the vastly superior performance keeping my particular home comfortable. The old noncat was a pretty stone stove with a pretty fireview that kept us warm "on average" but the short burn times meant cyclical heat and cold mornings. I do have an NC30 in my shop, in that application I use the strengths of a noncat to make big heat over a short time period.

Other cat stoves that perform well and are not known for being draft sensitive are from woodstock. If BK went away and I needed to choose another cat stove it would be a woodstock IS. I do not like soapstone. The IS is fairly cheap too.


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Sure, but based on how the AF30 is performing we'd ideally need longer burn times and lower heat output. I can't imagine a non-cat will be able to keep our downstairs at 73° for 10 hours and have a nice bed of coals to reload.
> 
> @Highbeam I don't assume you'd want to switch to an Englander 30NC would you? That is the same situation for my house as well. The BK does great when it can run slowly for many hours.  It's just enough circulation to get all the rooms upstairs.  Pellet is no-go for me. That would double my heating costs. I can [relatively] easily get a few cords of free wood per year and it will slowly pay itself off (not doing great this year but that is because windows are open and we have been trying to keep creo smoke out of the rooms).
> 
> If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.


I really think you need to measure your draft.  That should have been done a long time ago when you first started having problems.


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> He can't get himself to run more than 1 cord a season and can't run it overnight without the upstairs getting to 80°F. That sounds miserable.


Every house varies. If he is adequately heating on 1 cord in NYS he either has a small house or one that is exceptionally well insulated or there is supplemental heat also running. Each situation is different. For sure you don't need or want to be running a stove, even a non-cat, at full output all the time. The operator controls the heat output, just like you are doing now. But I hear you on needing long burntimes because you are away at work. 

FWIW, sister still lives at the top of Westchester and their house is superinsulated. They use about 2 cords a year to heat a 2100? sq ft house.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

bholler said:


> I really think you need to measure your draft.  That should have been done a long time ago when you first started having problems.


Yes, I'm having trouble finding information on how to install it.  Sending you a PM for details...

@begreen No this friend is running mostly NG furnace.  He doesn't run the stove at all at night and not everyday.  He hadn't been able to figure out an overnight load without overheating the house. 

Yes I'm near Westchester. I'm about 1.5 cords in so far supplementing about 2/3 my heat since Dec. Could do much better with all the upstairs doors open at night.


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## Highbeam (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes, I'm having trouble finding information on how to install it.  Sending you a PM for details...
> 
> @begreen No this friend is running mostly NG furnace.  He doesn't run the stove at all at night and not everyday.  He hadn't been able to figure out an overnight load without overheating the house.
> 
> Yes I'm near Westchester. I'm about 1.5 cords in so far supplementing about 2/3 my heat since Dec. Could do much better with all the upstairs doors open at night.



There have been some pretty good posts about how to measure draft on a bk recently. You can actually use the existing cat probe hole.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> There have been some pretty good posts about how to measure draft on a bk recently. You can actually use the existing cat probe hole.


Oh nice, that is perfect.  I don't want to tap it or anything though.  I will look around for those threads and probably order a meter tonight... Couldn't find any a week or two ago about installing the pressure tap.  That will give me a lot more information what is going on.


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Oh nice, that is perfect.  I don't want to tap it or anything though.  I will look around for those threads and probably order a meter tonight... Couldn't find any a week or two ago about installing the pressure tap.


It is not a big deal.  Most just need a 1/4" hole.


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## lsucet (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Oh nice, that is perfect.  I don't want to tap it or anything though.  I will look around for those threads and probably order a meter tonight... Couldn't find any a week or two ago about installing the pressure tap.  That will give me a lot more information what is going on.


You can get one of this.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NDKZ1TS/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

@bholler sure, I just did not want to create another creosote sprayer in my stovepipe.  Most of the barbs from the meter kits I looked at were 1/8NPT or so (about 3/8" OD). I wasn't sure what could withstand the heat as well. Most of them have plastic tubes.  I see a lot of choices for actual meters, just not sure about the stove/pipe connection.


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @bholler sure, I just did not want to create another creosote sprayer in my stovepipe.  Most of the barbs from the meter kits I looked at were 1/8NPT or so (about 3/8" OD). I wasn't sure what could withstand the heat as well. Most of them have plastic tubes.  I see a lot of choices for actual meters, just not sure about the stove/pipe connection.


The stove pipe is under a vacuum so not a sprayer at all.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

You mean most stove pipes should be under vacuum?


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## Highbeam (Mar 13, 2019)

The guys in the bk thread show how they did it by simply pushing a short length of metal tube into the probe hole. Totally temporary and reversible. 

Permanent installs into the pipe are possible but not necessary for testing.

Bk provides a spec for high burn but in your case vcs I would want to measure draft at other burn settings as well.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 13, 2019)

begreen said:


> Yes, cat stoves run best when the cat is active, but visible flame does not diminish the quality of heating when a flame is present. It's not the point of a cat stove. Many cat owners have to run their stoves at a high enough rate so that visible flames are present.


I was merely trying to say that maybe his flame getting snuffed out is the stove operating as intended


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> You mean most stove pipes should be under vacuum?


It is.  If it wasn't you wouldn't be able to maintain a fire in the stove and the house would be filled with smoke not just smell.  We just need to know if it is the right amount of vacuum


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## begreen (Mar 13, 2019)

lsucet said:


> You can get one of this.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NDKZ1TS/?tag=hearthamazon-20


The range is high for a wood stove. The BK likes to be in the ~.06 range. A manometer reading from 0-.25 would be good. These show up on eBay for $20-30.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NI4JUMY/?tag=hearthamazon-20

Maybe ask your BK dealer to come out and do the measurement?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

Don't worry guys, I will find the right gauge . I'm an engineer and do stuff related to measurements and signal processing, just not with wood stoves.


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## lsucet (Mar 13, 2019)

begreen said:


> The range is high for a wood stove. The BK likes to be in the ~.06 range. A manometer reading from 0-.25 would be good. These show up on eBay for $20-30.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NI4JUMY/?tag=hearthamazon-20
> 
> Maybe ask your BK dealer to come out and do the measurement?


I do have both, and they read the same when measured my draft a few month ago. The Mark ii 25 is ok also and real cheap, i have that for years. it has .05 between 0 and .10 or in minus to the left. either way they both work.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> So update from this morning. Sycamore is very dry at 17%. Just split one larger ugly this morning. The wetter looking ash is no more than 20%. For about 1hr it was fine this morning, no smell at all with 25°F outside. I turned it down after about 15-20min slowly to about 65% and it slowed down at mid medium range.  My wife says there was a very faint amount of creo smell about 2hrs afterwards and it aired out in just a few minutes with the window open upstairs.  It had warmed to 32°F.
> 
> The reoccurring trends throughout this project:
> 
> ...



I hate to say it again, but this really confirms it from my interpretation; your wood is not dry enough and your reader is off or not calibrated for the temperature you are reading the wood at, or maybe you are getting only surface readings and deeper down there is more moisture. If it runs away on smaller splits but smoulders with larger splits from the same stack, that's wet wood. The fact that the fire, and your heat, collapses under lower primary air settings screams wet fuel. Your draft is almost certainly in spec since you aren't getting loads of smoke in the house with the larger pieces of wood. 

Try running another load of small splits and babysit the air control until the stove is putting out the required amount of heat. I know this won't give you long burn times, but it is a good diagnostic.

Have you tried even just a pack of Bio bricks or similar? You don't have to buy a whole pallet.


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## lsucet (Mar 13, 2019)

Many say that their wood is dry when is not, but, I dont think that his issue is related to wood. If that is the case, how many here will have the smell? There is something else going on. including bad draft can give him issues starting the fire etc and possibly not letting him dial it too low, but still no reason for creo smell inside the house. If the stove stall,  okay, no reason for smell either.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

@SpaceBus

How are you concluding it is wet wood? Im measuring wood sitting in my basement for several days with a Dr. Meter MM with fresh splits. Three measurements parallel to the grain, closer to the ends and one in the middle. The initial ash I had a problem with was seasoned under cover single row for 30 months with sun. It all burns the same. Larger logs are burning more slowly and are not smoldering out.


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

lsucet said:


> Many say that their wood is dry when is not, but, I dont think that his issue is related to wood. If that is the case, how many here will have the smell? There is something else going on. including bad draft can give him issues starting the fire etc and possibly not letting him dial it too low, but still no reason for creo smell inside the house. If the stove stall,  okay, no reason for smell either.


Draft that is to low can absolutely cause smell.  The cat stalling can lead to back puffing which can also cause smell.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 13, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @SpaceBus
> 
> How are you concluding it is wet wood? Im measuring wood sitting in my basement for several days with a Dr. Meter MM with fresh splits. Three measurements parallel to the grain, closer to the ends and one in the middle. The initial ash I had a problem with was seasoned under cover single row for 30 months with sun. It all burns the same. Larger logs are burning more slowly and are not smoldering out.



Sorry, I was under the impression that you had hotter fires when using smaller splits than when using larger pieces. Wet wood generally needs more air to burn, which is why you have to run the air open more when trying to burn it. Your symptoms match up well with folks, myself included, that have wet wood. I say a $5 pack of Bio bricks is a cheap diagnostic. If it's not the problem, great, your wood stack is awesome. If your problem gets better with compressed wood products, even better, you know the issue.


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## lsucet (Mar 13, 2019)

bholler said:


> Draft that is to low can absolutely cause smell.  The cat stalling can lead to back puffing which can also cause smell.


For what I understand he mentioned that it works better on warmer weather than when is cold. I will say that is against logic. If it is draft related I will assume that when cold things improve instead of getting worse.
I know he thinks that the chimney running outside is getting too cold. I don't know what to say. The chimney on one of my setups run outside/ exposed about 70% or more of the total length, 19'.  When cold the draft improve way more measured with a manometer. That is what I am not understanding.


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## bholler (Mar 13, 2019)

lsucet said:


> For what I understand he mentioned that it works better on warmer weather than when is cold. I will say that is against logic. If it is draft related I will assume that when cold things improve instead of getting worse.
> I know he thinks that the chimney running outside is getting too cold. I don't know what to say. The chimney on one of my setups run outside/ exposed about 70% or more of the total length, 19'.  When cold the draft improve way more measured with a manometer. That is what I am not understanding.


That is why the draft needs to be measured


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## Ashful (Mar 13, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> There have been some pretty good posts about how to measure draft on a bk recently. You can actually use the existing cat probe hole.


I think jetsam originally posted this, and aaronk25 may have tried this, as well.  But I would worry about the likelihood of damaging the refractory thru which the cat probe penetrates, jamming any length of metal tubing in there.

I just drilled a 3/16" hole in my double wall telescoping, where it's not visible in back, and have a permanent hookup for mine.  If I ever wanted to remove it, I'd just plug it with a screw, easily removable later.



begreen said:


> The range is high for a wood stove. The BK likes to be in the ~.06 range. A manometer reading from 0-.25 would be good. These show up on eBay for $20-30.
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NI4JUMY/?tag=hearthamazon-20


That's the exact gauge I'm using.  Hard to be the Magnehelic, and that's the ideal range for this measurement.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 13, 2019)

Ok ok guys. Yes I will check the draft.  It seems to draft nicely in the 20's or below and hasn't really smelled yet in the 40's surprisingly.  It did backpuff and get this vapor ignition the first week in Dec when turning between 50-75% tstat setting.  After the 3ft extension I didn't really see that. 

I ordered the Dwyer Mark2 plastic gauge.  I'm just not sure about what to insert into the cat probe hole. Looking for some type of probe tip that fits the hole (about 5.75mm I believe) and just goes in about 2" or so.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 14, 2019)

I should have my OAK completed tomorrow and will run the stove for a week  and see if there is any improvement in the smell I'm having in the house. IF that doesn't work, my next step is to check draft over time with _*this*_. Yeah, it's a bit more money, but it records min/max/avg vacuum and I'll check draft via the stack, thermo hole and ash plug - wanna cover all my bases - I've got to find out what the hell is going on with my stove.


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## mar13 (Mar 14, 2019)

I haven't read all posts, so forgive me if this has been discussed, but I noticed earlier it was mentioned an upstairs window was opened to air out the  house. I'm confident that this isn't the chief culprit, but it may not be helping the situation. Here is a quote from an article on drafts that I posted a link to a few weeks ago: The_ fact that the neutral pressure plane follows the leaks is significant. When an upstairs window is opened (in effect, a very large leak), it causes the NPP to rise to its level. This creates a greater level of negative pressure low in the house, and in extreme cases, can cause spillage or backdrafting in a basement hearth._


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## begreen (Mar 14, 2019)

Good observation. Leakage (open window, leaky attic door, dryer or kitchen fan, etc.) at a higher level in the house can cause a lower pressure zone at the lower level of the house.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 14, 2019)

@mar13 Good thought. If you have an upstairs window open it could reduce some pressure, though in our case we usually open the window after the creo starts. Often I will leave a window cracked in the stove room and there's no effect either way on the creo production. The draft Manometer could help with some of these experiments. 

I do have an attic pulldown door in the upstairs hallway that leads to the roof vent, I don't think it is perfectly sealed but cracking the downstairs window should solve that.


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## maple1 (Mar 14, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Ok ok guys. Yes I will check the draft.  It seems to draft nicely in the 20's or below and hasn't really smelled yet in the 40's surprisingly.  It did backpuff and get this vapor ignition the first week in Dec when turning between 50-75% tstat setting.  After the 3ft extension I didn't really see that.
> 
> I ordered the Dwyer Mark2 plastic gauge.  I'm just not sure about what to insert into the cat probe hole. Looking for some type of probe tip that fits the hole (about 5.75mm I believe) and just goes in about 2" or so.



A length of some kind of metal tubing that the hose will fit over, or that you can fasten a barbed adaptor to that the hose will fit over. I just used a 12"+/- long piece of brakeline out of the brakeline section of my local parts place, had fittings on each end. One end I threaded an adaptor to that I also found in the same place.


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## Ashful (Mar 14, 2019)

maple1 said:


> A length of some kind of metal tubing that the hose will fit over, or that you can fasten a barbed adaptor to that the hose will fit over. I just used a 12"+/- long piece of brakeline out of the brakeline section of my local parts place, had fittings on each end. One end I threaded an adaptor to that I also found in the same place.



This is exactly the way mine is rigged, too.  3/16 stainless tube into hole in stove pipe, then hi temp rubber hose from stainless tube to magnehelic.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 14, 2019)

I got a static pressure tip from Dwyer that is 3/16 OD.  The dimensions are not all listed anywhere but if it can fit all the way into the probe hole there is a magnet that will hold tight onto the stovetop (till it reaches the Curie temp).  It will probably seal off the hole better than the cat probe. Then I got high temp silicone tubing that appears to be rated for this application.

Stove ran nice overnight with about 30lbs E-W loaded.  Good 30min-1hr left on active this morning. It's going to be in the upper 50's so I loaded about 20lbs of ash and cherry to keep it warm for the morning and early afternoon. 

I'm almost wondering if there is a little creo liquid dripping somewhere in the stove pipe and with a hot stove and not super high draft it is able to release some vapors into the house.  For example, my chimney adapter is not super tight and doesn't have a locking ring installed.  There is a very slight wobble though it can't move much will all the pipes tight.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 15, 2019)

bholler said:


> Many of us have heated our houses just fine with bobcats for years.


I guess you're not a PETA member, then? 


ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Any other cat stove will likely have the same draft issues....I'm certainly not the only person that has had creo problems with a BK.  Many people I've talked to have stalled their BK at least once or twice a season and have gotten creo smell.  If I had known there would be a risk of this I would have done things completely different.  At a minimum I'd would have done the chimney completely different. Now I'm stuck trying to deal with what I have.
> If there is a better drafting and better sealed cat stove I would certainly take a look but I have only seen worse stories with other stoves.


You seem to have a large circle of friends that burn wood. When you say that BK owners you talked to have "stalled" their stoves and had creo smell, does this happen when they run their stoves on a low cat burn with no flame in the box, or when they actually stall the cat and the probe falls out of the active zone?
What are the "worse stories" you have heard from people that have other brands of cat stoves? From what I've read here, the BKs are the only cat stoves that are very picky about draft...mostly the Ashford.
Yeah, you are going to lay out more money any way you go, new chimney or new stove. If you can use your Class A from outside, you only have to pay for the install, which shouldn't be too bad. Maybe less than the 2.5K+ you'd pay for a good quality stove, minus what you could get for the BK. I think a better chimney (inside the house with less turns) would probably get rid of the smoke to a large degree, and getting your draft measurements might support this theory. You may still have a little odor with the Ashford but people seem to put up with it.
BTW, no 45 elbows once you get above the ceiling support box into the Class A.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I'm almost wondering if there is a little creo liquid dripping somewhere in the stove pipe and with a hot stove and not super high draft it is able to release some vapors into the house


Now that's an interesting idea...not likely, but certainly possible.

As for measuring the draft...there are a ton of those Dwyer Mark II model 25's in use around here...many on boilers and furnaces, but will work fine on a stove too. Hook the rubber tube up to the right port, left port left open...that will make it read the right side scale and give you more range. The meter needs to be perfectly plumb and level to read right.
As was mentioned, a piece of brake line or copper tubing works fine to insert into the pipe (or stove, in this case) only need a foot or two of it...clamp a compression fitting on the tubing (available wherever you buy the tubing usually) then the barbed fitting that comes with the Dwyer can be screwed into that fitting (1/8" NPT size, IIRC)...bam, draft reading.
And somebody mentioned that you can only take a draft reading when running wide open...not true...I run mine 24/7/365, it will give a reading anytime, even in the middle of the summer if you get some wind the right way. The one thing I would wonder about is if you would get a different reading in the stove pipe vs in the cat probe hole? (before vs after the cat)


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## bholler (Mar 15, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Now that's an interesting idea...not likely, but certainly possible.
> 
> As for measuring the draft...there are a ton of those Dwyer Mark II model 25's in use around here...many on boilers and furnaces, but will work fine on a stove too. Hook the rubber tube up to the right port, left port left open...that will make it read the right side scale and give you more range. The meter needs to be perfectly plumb and level to read right.
> As was mentioned, a piece of brake line or copper tubing works fine to insert into the pipe (or stove, in this case) only need a foot or two of it...clamp a compression fitting on the tubing (available wherever you buy the tubing usually) then the barbed fitting that comes with the Dwyer can be screwed into that fitting (1/8" NPT size, IIRC)...bam, draft reading.
> And somebody mentioned that you can only take a draft reading when running wide open...not true...I run mine 24/7/365, it will give a reading anytime, even in the middle of the summer if you get some wind the right way. The one thing I would wonder about is if you would get a different reading in the stove pipe vs in the cat probe hole? (before vs after the cat)


No one said you can only take a measurement when running wide open.  But that the conditions under which bk tells you what the draft should be.  So yes of course you will get a reading anytime but you don't have a spec to meet any other time.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 15, 2019)

bholler said:


> No one said you can only take a measurement when running wide open.  But that the conditions under which bk tells you what the draft should be.  So yes of course you will get a reading anytime but you don't have a spec to meet any other time.


Yes, I think I misunderstood what I read.
So why wouldn't they give you a spec for anything other than wide open? 
Wood furnaces typically require -0.04 to -0.06" WC...so unless you are just starting a fire, or the fire is dying out, the draft should be in that range...why would a stove be any different? Something to do with being a cat stove?


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## lsucet (Mar 15, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Yes, I think I misunderstood what I read.
> So why wouldn't they give you a spec for anything other than wide open?
> Wood furnaces typically require -0.04 to -0.06" WC...so unless you are just starting a fire, or the fire is dying out, the draft should be in that range...why would a stove be any different? Something to do with being a cat stove?


I think some furnaces use some kind of draft control. They want the high burn to not exceed those numbers to prevent damage to the appliance and over fire? Another point to look is, when you shut the air the flue create higher vacuum making the reading higher.


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## bholler (Mar 15, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Yes, I think I misunderstood what I read.
> So why wouldn't they give you a spec for anything other than wide open?
> Wood furnaces typically require -0.04 to -0.06" WC...so unless you are just starting a fire, or the fire is dying out, the draft should be in that range...why would a stove be any different? Something to do with being a cat stove?


Like isucet said above many furnaces use barometric dampers so you can set the draft over all conditions.  With woodstoves you can't do that so they specify draft at a certain point.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 15, 2019)

lsucet said:


> I think some furnaces use some kind of draft control.


Some do...some don't.
And yes, they want to never exceed the max draft, and they require the minimum draft spec to be met at all time while actively burning, except as I said, when fire is building, or dying out.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 15, 2019)

bholler said:


> Like isucet said above many furnaces use barometric dampers so you can set the draft over all conditions.


A baro only controls max draft...not the minimum...the chimney system does that, as you know.
EDIT: not controls min. draft...more like provides...as in a good chimney will, a poor one might not.
And yes, baros do a pretty good job of keeping the draft "in the range" over varying conditions like intake damper open, or closed.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 15, 2019)

I guess my point is this, if you test the draft under wide open conditions only, many chimneys will pass since you are wasting a fair amount of heat...but once the stove is turned down and cruising, the heat wasted up the flue is much less, and a "poor" chimney system may lose sufficient draft to keep the stove working properly...which it sounds like there may be a pretty good chance of this happening to the OP here.
I would bet that 80-90% of "undesirable" chimneys pass the draft test under WOT conditions...not a good way to test IMO.


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## bholler (Mar 15, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> I guess my point is this, if you test the draft under wide open conditions only, many chimneys will pass since you are wasting a fair amount of heat...but once the stove is turned down and cruising, the heat wasted up the flue is much less, and a "poor" chimney system may lose sufficient draft to keep the stove working properly...which it sounds like there may be a pretty good chance of this happening to the OP here.
> I would bet that 80-90% of "undesirable" chimneys pass the draft test under WOT conditions...not a good way to test IMO.


After testing many stoves on many chimneys what you are saying is very uncommon.  90% of the time if you test and meet draft specs under high fire the stove will work properly.


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## bholler (Mar 15, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> A baro only controls max draft...not the minimum...the chimney system does that, as you know.
> EDIT: not controls min. draft...more like provides...as in a good chimney will, a poor one might not.
> And yes, baros do a pretty good job of keeping the draft "in the range" over varying conditions like intake damper open, or closed.


Yes i know how a baro works.  Of course you need to have the minimum draft but as long as you have that you can set the baro to control max draft.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 15, 2019)

It was 70 today but getting back in the 40's for the rest of the week. The Dwyer Mark 2 arrived today. The 3/16" pitot tube style pressure tip fits great in the cat probe hole and the magnet seats nicely on the stove top. It is very similar diameter to the probe. Hopefully nothing burns or melts right after the combustor...


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## Highbeam (Mar 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It was 70 today but getting back in the 40's for the rest of the week. The Dwyer Mark 2 arrived today. The 3/16" pitot tube style pressure tip fits great in the cat probe hole and the magnet seats nicely on the stove top. It is very similar diameter to the probe. Hopefully nothing burns or melts right after the combustor...



It’s hotter than heck right after the cat. 1500 right now on my stove. Hopefully you don’t expect plastic or rubber tube to survive there.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 15, 2019)

Right. The BK gauge goes from 500-1500°F on active?

So this fits nicely in the cat probe hole. Will it be any cooler 2ft up at the elbow? Another option is to run a smaller load and pull it out once the cat is active. It would be nice to see what's happening when it normally produces creo but that is usually in the medium or high range. Second option is to leave the tip up a few inches to keep the barb cooler. Last, I could make a new 1/4" hole in the pipe but I'd have to go find a large sheet screw to fill it.

It's a silicone hose rated for about 500°F


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## lsucet (Mar 15, 2019)

Load the stove normal. Not packed but full, after the cat is active and bypass closed run it on high as by the book 20 minutes or so. It depends to type of wood in use, just be sure that is running on high. Measure draft to see what it has.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 15, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Right. The BK gauge goes from 500-1500°F on active?
> 
> So this fits nicely in the cat probe hole. Will it be any cooler 2ft up at the elbow? Another option is to run a smaller load and pull it out once the cat is active. It would be nice to see what's happening when it normally produces creo but that is usually in the medium or high range. Second option is to leave the tip up a few inches to keep the barb cooler. Last, I could make a new 1/4" hole in the pipe but I'd have to go find a large sheet screw to fill it.
> 
> It's a silicone hose rated for about 500°F


Yeah that hose probably wont survive long since it attaches so close to the magnet, thus the stove. If it attached 6-12" out from the stove, it would probably be OK...since there is no hot air being pulled through the tube...only heat transfer through the metal.
A test hole up in the pipe would surely be cooler...the hole can easily be plugged with a lag bolt...even a standard machine thread bolt will fit nicely if the hole is the right size...IIRC a 5/16 NC bolt fit nicely in a 1/4 hole. A self tapping bolt would probably make it even easier to start the bolt in the hole.
http://www.shender4.com/thread_chart.htm


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## Highbeam (Mar 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Right. The BK gauge goes from 500-1500°F on active?
> 
> So this fits nicely in the cat probe hole. Will it be any cooler 2ft up at the elbow? Another option is to run a smaller load and pull it out once the cat is active. It would be nice to see what's happening when it normally produces creo but that is usually in the medium or high range. Second option is to leave the tip up a few inches to keep the barb cooler. Last, I could make a new 1/4" hole in the pipe but I'd have to go find a large sheet screw to fill it.
> 
> It's a silicone hose rated for about 500°F



Yes, it will be much cooler 2 feet up the pipe. I measure internal flue temps 18” up the flue and see up to 1000 degrees at high burn, and less than 400 at low burn all with a 1500 degree cat. The probe hole is right there at the cat!

You want to test at high burn to verify that you meet the spec. Then for your own testing at lower rates to verify a low pressure in the firebox at all times.

Good stuff.


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## maple1 (Mar 16, 2019)

You could add on some metal pipe to that with a compression union.


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## moresnow (Mar 16, 2019)

My Stt. Next to the probe hole can exceed 600f. Rubber hose....um. 
Id be testing up in the pipe. Away from the probe. Seems like checking up beyond the stove in your venting system makes better sense anyhow?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 16, 2019)

Yes, pipe probably makes more sense. Would be nice to know the exact pressure right at the probe hole since that's where vapor may be emitted. There's not one single pressure throughout the whole interior volume. There is a large metal plate right behind the cat probe that likely causes a local inc in pressure as the flow hits the plate.


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## DBoon (Mar 16, 2019)

Since you are an engineer and you know what wood species you are using, you might want to use a multi-meter to do a better, more accurate check of the moisture content of your wood. See https://hearth.com/talk/threads/using-a-multimeter-to-measure-wood-moisture-level.40033/ . It easy to do, and you might have a multi-meter already. 

I personally have not used one of the ~$20 moisture meters, so I can't vouch for or dispute their accuracy, but they do make assumptions about wood types and I also find it hard to believe that most people really push the moisture meter probes as far as recommended into the wood split.

I'm considering a BK Ashford, so I've been following the thread. I would say that I would not rule out moisture too high in the wood as one of the possible causes of your creosote smell issues.


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## begreen (Mar 16, 2019)

DBoon said:


> I'm considering a BK Ashford, so I've been following the thread. I would say that I would not rule out moisture too high in the wood as one of the possible causes of your creosote smell issues.


Regardless of wood moisture, that smell should not enter the room envelope.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> Regardless of wood moisture, that smell should not enter the room envelope.


Exactly.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> Regardless of wood moisture, that smell should not enter the room envelope.


This is what makes me wonder if it is coming back into the house after exiting the flue. Maybe through the perpetually cracked window upstairs?


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## begreen (Mar 16, 2019)

An open window upstairs would likely be exhausting air from the house, but it would create negative pressure on a lower floor.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 16, 2019)

DBoon said:


> I personally have not used one of the ~$20 moisture meters, so I can't vouch for or dispute their accuracy,


OT, but I got one of the Harbor Freight $14 meters. It has button batteries, and I had to clean the contacts and batteries a couple times already. Seems pretty accurate, though. I'm gonna get a different meter eventually. The General I had, before the connector broke, used a 9V battery.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 16, 2019)

Hey guys.
Got the dwyer mk2 hooked up. Overall weak draft is definitely NOT the problem! Upon lighting some kindling I'm quickly up to 0.08". 5min later I'm up to 0.1" WC. And yes, it was zeroed out before placing in the pipe.

I gave the stovepipe a brush, replaced screws in the collar to tighten them closer and drilled a hole for the draft tube.

I will try turning down the air and close the bypass in a bit to see how it's reacting.

So if the draft doesn't die later when I get this creo smell, what the hell is the problem?!!


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## brenndatomu (Mar 16, 2019)

_If_ there was going to be a draft problem...I would expect it after the stove is turned down...


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 16, 2019)

I lowered the air to 75% to keep the flue from getting too hot, but in the process the draft pres has increased to about .14" W.C. Still sucking along nicely at the moment and about to close the bypass...


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## MissMac (Mar 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Hey guys.
> Got the dwyer mk2 hooked up. Overall weak draft is definitely NOT the problem! Upon lighting some kindling I'm quickly up to 0.08". 5min later I'm up to 0.1" WC. And yes, it was zeroed out before placing in the pipe.
> 
> I gave the stovepipe a brush, replaced screws in the collar to tighten them closer and drilled a hole for the draft tube.
> ...


Shouldn’t you be measuring the draft with the bypass closed?


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## lsucet (Mar 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I lowered the air to 75% to keep the flue from getting too hot, but in the process the draft pres has increased to about .14" W.C. Still sucking along nicely at the moment and about to close the bypass...


Ok draft is measured on high burn. It is normal when closing the tstat to see the draft increase. That is not a good representation of what is going on draft wise.
Let it burn on high and see what is the draft 15 to 20 minutes burning on high with a full load or enough wood that the stove get hot and  see the readings.
Closing the air increase the pressure/vacuum and it will read higher for awhile. To see what it is doing when cruising, you need to wait 1 to 2 hrs after you go to your low settings to give time to settle. Now you can see what it is doing on low at present setting.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 16, 2019)

@MissMac 

I'm just checking it along the way. Bypass was closed and didn't affect the draft much. Maybe dropped 0.01" W.C.  

I have it set to about 55% and the flame has been out for about 15min. Draft has slowed to 0.1" but no creo smell yet??


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## brenndatomu (Mar 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Draft has slowed to 0.1" but no creo smell yet??


I dunno what the draft spec is on this model...but in the wood furnace world, -0.1" WC is considered high draft, -0.04 to -0.06" is a common spec. I owned one (the one in my avatar pic) that was spec'd at -0.03"!
Do you know what BK calls for?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 16, 2019)

@brenndatomu I can't find it in the manual but on "HIGH" the draft I heard should be 0.05-0.08"W.C.  So I'm almost double the recommended pressure.

Update 1hr on 55%tstat setting:  Might have had a very slight creo smell around the cat probe, none noticeable upstairs with the windows cracked. It performed great and blew on the coals for about 30min until the temperature dropped and flame relit.  There were 4 ash logs, about 10lbs loaded E-W in the back. It has not dropped below 0.1"WC, even jumped up to 0.15" briefly when there is a good wind gust outside.

Also, in case this smell doesn't come back: I did get the inner flue connector much tighter in the collar and I sealed all the old screw holes with high temp gasket (from the original crappy stove pipe build).  There is a little bit of "hot metal" smell probably from the new stainless collar screws but I think I would still smell the dreaded creo smell if it got bad.  Might have something to do with loading them in the back rather than smoldering logs right below the catalyst.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @brenndatomu I can't find it in the manual but on "HIGH" the draft I heard should be 0.05-0.08"W.C.  So I'm almost double the recommended pressure.
> 
> Update 1hr on 55%tstat setting:  Might have had a very slight creo smell around the cat probe, none noticeable upstairs with the windows cracked. It performed great and blew on the coals for about 30min until the temperature dropped and flame relit.  There were 4 ash logs, about 10lbs loaded E-W in the back. It has not dropped below 0.1"WC, even jumped up to 0.15" briefly when there is a good wind gust outside.
> 
> Also, in case this smell doesn't come back: I did get the inner flue connector much tighter in the collar and I sealed all the old screw holes with high temp gasket (from the original crappy stove pipe build).  There is a little bit of "hot metal" smell probably from the new stainless collar screws but I think I would still smell the dreaded creo smell if it got bad.  Might have something to do with loading them in the back rather than smoldering logs right below the catalyst.


Hoping you'll stay up for a few hours watching the stove...need minute by minute reports. It's only 8pm here on the west coast so I'll be up for another four hours...


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## begreen (Mar 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @brenndatomu I can't find it in the manual but on "HIGH" the draft I heard should be 0.05-0.08"W.C. So I'm almost double the recommended pressure.


The specs for draft are pretty low. This is from the manual:

DRAFT

Draft in the chimney system is initiated by the air pressure difference between the top and bottom of the
chimney. Heat generated within the firebox will rise and accelerate the draft in the chimney. Recommended
draft is .05 in. w.c. operated on high. Too little draft results in a sluggish fire and smoke spillage into the room
when the stove door is opened. Too much draft (over 0.06 in. w.c.) makes it unsafe to operate the stove and will
void manufacturers warranty.

Based on this I'd say your issue is definitely not a "cold chimney".


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## Ashful (Mar 16, 2019)

Paging @aaronk25, I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over, and it's your theory anyway.



brenndatomu said:


> _If_ there was going to be a draft problem...I would expect it after the stove is turned down...


Draft always climbs on my chimney, when turning down the stove.  Chimney pull decreases a little as it cools after turn down, but the restriction at the air inlet always trumps this effect on my rig, causing a net increase in draft when turning down.  If I'm dialed to 0.05"WC after 20 minutes running on high, it will typically climb to 0.1"WC when I turn down.  Chimney height ain't changing, and drop across key damper decreases with the reduced flow rate, so draft below key damper has to increase.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2019)

So it's not draft or equipment which leaves one thing...


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 17, 2019)

@Ashful, what is your draft on your 30ft chimney without damper?  Why is my draft so high?  It looks like I need to remove one of those chimney sections but it seemed like I need it to pull some of this creo vapor into the pipe.

So this morning after leaving on 55% tstat setting all night, I can't tell if I smelled anything upstairs but the windows were open.  There's a nice bed of coals and the draft is running at 0.9" w.c.

Question, is there supposed to be a weld bead at the outer edge of the collar at the top of the stove? I don't have anything there.

I guess I'll keep monitoring it to see if the creo smell starts.  I don't suspect my draft would drop much below 0.08" or so when running.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 17, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Draft always climbs on my chimney, when turning down the stove. Chimney pull decreases a little as it cools after turn down, but the restriction at the air inlet always trumps this effect on my rig, causing a net increase in draft when turning down. If I'm dialed to 0.05"WC after 20 minutes running on high, it will typically climb to 0.1"WC when I turn down. Chimney height ain't changing, and drop across key damper decreases with the reduced flow rate, so draft below key damper has to increase.


Yes, this is how it works on a proper chimney (size/height/insulated) but if you have a chimney that is too large, or external, and uninsulated, etc, then after you cut the stove back the chimney cools, draft drops, fire cools, draft drops more...into a downward spiral we go...not saying this always happens, just that its possible...and more likely to happen if your chimney is outside of manufacturers specs for the stove.
From the OP's description of his chimney I would not have expected a draft issue, but after all this, it is too important to not at least check it...and now he knows what it is. Knowledge is power...especially when troubleshooting.
I like leaving my Dwyer hooked up 24/7/365...I have caught high draft several times during a windy winter storm...just a couple months back when we had that super cold snap my high temp alarm went off on the furnace...went down to check, high draft...(the baro couldn't keep up by itself) after making some adjustments the firebox temp slowly dropped and the alarm stopped. Without the Dwyer I would have been guessing on what the issue was...just saying...I think everybody with a wood burner and a nagging operational problem should test, or have their draft tested...


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2019)

There are too many engineers on this thread.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 17, 2019)

I know you are still skeptical SpaceBus... so I might try a known partially seasoned Beech at some point as a test just to make you happy .

After taking this draft measurement I'm thinking it still might be improper sealing of the stovepipe.  When I rebuilt everything, two of the collar screws were not fully through the inner flue and pushing the pipe out a little bit. It might have not been sealing well in the collar, some vapors get around the outside of the inner flue and then can start making smell when they build up.  I'm not sure it is still perfectly sealing the flue pipe but it is significantly better sealed after the 3 new screws.  I also plugged an extra hole in the outer pipe by collar from an old screw hole. This morning I can just barely smell creo smell sniffing right at the collar and it's been in smoke mode for over an hour.  Tstat is set at 55% but temp is still at the "HIGH" range likely because the draft is too high and it can't control temp well.

I wonder if anyone has had this same creo smell issue with a properly installed, properly sized Duratech DVL stovepipe and fully seasoned wood?


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## Ashful (Mar 17, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @Ashful, what is your draft on your 30ft chimney without damper?  Why is my draft so high?  It looks like I need to remove one of those chimney sections but it seemed like I need it to pull some of this creo vapor into the pipe.



Mine runs around 0.16” - 0.18”WC on high without damper.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2019)

I don't think all of your wood is too wet, just the large pieces. Your fire last night seemed to be made up of sub 3" pieces of firewood. Your stove seems to have stalling issues on larger pieces. Your flue system is not letting anything out as long as your house stays warmer than the outside air. The smell is coming in elsewhere. I have a feeling your house is very tight and well insulated and that window upstairs is providing the make up air for your stove. Further I think your fairly short chimney is contributing to the smell coming back into your house. On a day with no wind smoke will settle near and around my house if my cold starts are a bit slow. With a draft like yours, there's no way the flue is releasing the smell until it comes out the top. If you want to test the house envelope, close all the windows before lightning a cold stove and watch your mag gauge. Without going back several pages, I feel like you said the smell was worse before you extended the chimney.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Mar 17, 2019)

Would a draft that is higher than the manufacturer specs cause a creasote smell outside the stove?  Seems counterintuitive to me.  More suction from the house into the atmosphere outside.

Or, is this just being pondered for other reasons?


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## Highbeam (Mar 17, 2019)

Normally the risk with too much draft is abnormal stove performance and stove damage from too much heat. Excessive draft strength works to keep the smoke in the stove and chimney system. We don’t know draft strength until it is measured but it was a double check in this case since his flue net minimum requirements. 

There are some theories that too much draft strength sucks air through the firebox in a manner to disrupt the normally laminar flow pattern and cause turbulence that may blow smoke out of odd places. That’s why so many focus on the door gasket. Even bk released a gasket upgrade.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 17, 2019)

@SpaceBus
None of that makes sense.  We get this creo smell with or without the windows open.  It's very clearly coming from around the cat probe or collar. The larger logs are burning great: keeping the temp under control and burns through nicely on a lower burn.  The small logs blaze the whole firebox into a fireball and rocket the stove into high. When it gets there the flame dies and it starts creating smell (but still nicely burns along, not actually stalling).

The chimney is 23.5ft outside, 2ft inside. I think I will lower that to 21.5ft to lower the draft a bit and keep the temps under control better. We are certainly having issues with that.  With a full box it is almost impossible to keep it from getting in the high range.  I'm also going to blob a bunch of gasket around the stove collar and see if I can get that sealed off nicely.  It seems like it is already much better.  Staying smoldering for hours without releasing any smell.

@Highbeam, yes check above. I measured it. It's between 0.09" to 0.16" W.C. About 0.15"W.C. on HIGH.


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## bholler (Mar 17, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I know you are still skeptical SpaceBus... so I might try a known partially seasoned Beech at some point as a test just to make you happy .
> 
> After taking this draft measurement I'm thinking it still might be improper sealing of the stovepipe.  When I rebuilt everything, two of the collar screws were not fully through the inner flue and pushing the pipe out a little bit. It might have not been sealing well in the collar, some vapors get around the outside of the inner flue and then can start making smell when they build up.  I'm not sure it is still perfectly sealing the flue pipe but it is significantly better sealed after the 3 new screws.  I also plugged an extra hole in the outer pipe by collar from an old screw hole. This morning I can just barely smell creo smell sniffing right at the collar and it's been in smoke mode for over an hour.  Tstat is set at 55% but temp is still at the "HIGH" range likely because the draft is too high and it can't control temp well.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has had this same creo smell issue with a properly installed, properly sized Duratech DVL stovepipe and fully seasoned wood?


There is no reason your stove pipe should need to be totally sealed.  We have established it is under a proper vaccum so it will suck air in any gaps.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2019)

How can airborne creosote particles come out of the probe hole if your flue is clearly under vacuum? Air would be entering around the probe hole, not exiting. My interior masonry chimney was built before code changed to only one appliance per flue and has thimbles upstairs. The thimbles have caps, but obviously no gaskets and they aren't air tight. My clean out door also doesn't have a gasket. I don't get any smell, even burning wood that is steaming out of the ends with three air leaks on top of the stove that also has holes in it.

I clearly misunderstood some of your posts. I was under the impression that if you closed the thermostat below 75% open that your fire would stall and your cat would then stall, when using larger pieces of wood. It makes sense now that your stove almost overheats when using small splits with your high draft. However, why can't the thermostat keep up? Aren't these stoves set it and forget it? I must be missing something.


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## lsucet (Mar 17, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> With a full box it is almost impossible to keep it from getting in the high range


Regardless if full box or just a few pieces, when you close the dial to the point that you hear the click, you should see a black box. No flames at all. Unless I misunderstood you. Don't matter if is 5 minutes or 1 hr into the burn. You shouldn't see flames when you shut the air unless there is a leak or something else. It should not be that hard to control.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 17, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> There are some theories that too much draft strength sucks air through the firebox in a manner to disrupt the normally laminar flow pattern and cause turbulence that may blow smoke out of odd places. That’s why so many focus on the door gasket. Even bk released a gasket upgrade.


Without looking back, did he mention that smell was coming from the gasket area, or just around the collar?
What about the appliance adaptor that @webby3650 has mentioned in the past, that fit and sealed really well? Was he using that for Ashfords, or other BKs? Would it work with the OP's brand of connector pipe?


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## bholler (Mar 17, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> How can airborne creosote particles come out of the probe hole if your flue is clearly under vacuum? Air would be entering around the probe hole, not exiting. My interior masonry chimney was built before code changed to only one appliance per flue and has thimbles upstairs. The thimbles have caps, but obviously no gaskets and they aren't air tight. My clean out door also doesn't have a gasket. I don't get any smell, even burning wood that is steaming out of the ends with three air leaks on top of the stove that also has holes in it.
> 
> I clearly misunderstood some of your posts. I was under the impression that if you closed the thermostat below 75% open that your fire would stall and your cat would then stall, when using larger pieces of wood. It makes sense now that your stove almost overheats when using small splits with your high draft. However, why can't the thermostat keep up? Aren't these stoves set it and forget it? I must be missing something.


You really need to properly patch those old crocks.  In the event of a chimney ire they can cause major problems


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> You really need to properly patch those old crocks.  In the event of a chimney ire they can cause major problems


As in pull the thimbles and fill the holes?


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## bholler (Mar 17, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> As in pull the thimbles and fill the holes?


If they are clay thimbles and don't extend into the flue you don't need to pull them.  Just patch them solid with firebrick and refractory cement.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> If they are clay thimbles and don't extend into the flue you don't need to pull them.  Just patch them solid with firebrick and refractory cement.


Oh, they are metal thimbles through concrete block and then into a clay flue. There's some tiny cracks around one of the thimbles. Eventually I'd like to just get a Mason to take them out and make the whole thing smooth upstairs. I'm getting a liner before next season so it shouldn't be an issue anyway.


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## bholler (Mar 17, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Oh, they are metal thimbles through concrete block and then into a clay flue. There's some tiny cracks around one of the thimbles. Eventually I'd like to just get a Mason to take them out and make the whole thing smooth upstairs. I'm getting a liner before next season so it shouldn't be an issue anyway.


They still need patched properly with a liner


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2019)

bholler said:


> They still need patched properly with a liner


Yes, that will happen. A liner will have to wait until after the heating season.


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## Highbeam (Mar 17, 2019)

So vcs, you keep on referring to the cat meter for temperatures. Stop doing that, in fact, only consider that meter when determining whether or not the cat is active. It’s an on/off switch and some new models are actually wired to be on/off switches.

You are only able to control the thermostat setting. Catalyst temperature moves all around for various reasons but only falls below the active line to “off” if you’re out of fuel or if you’ve turned your thermostat too low.

I sure hope all of your overly specific “55%” reports of stove setting are referring to the thermostat knob on the back.


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## Highbeam (Mar 17, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> s
> Without looking back, did he mention that smell was coming from the gasket area, or just around the collar?
> What about the appliance adaptor that @webby3650 has mentioned in the past, that fit and sealed really well? Was he using that for Ashfords, or other BKs? Would it work with the OP's brand of connector pipe?



You can’t be certain where a smell is coming from on a jacketed hot stove.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 17, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> You can’t be certain where a smell is coming from on a jacketed hot stove.


You could tell if it was coming from the door gasket, as many have reported.


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## webby3650 (Mar 17, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> s
> Without looking back, did he mention that smell was coming from the gasket area, or just around the collar?
> What about the appliance adaptor that @webby3650 has mentioned in the past, that fit and sealed really well? Was he using that for Ashfords, or other BKs? Would it work with the OP's brand of connector pipe?


Almost no one has a positive connection at the stove top like we do them. We never have any smoke smell issues either...


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## Woody Stover (Mar 17, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> Almost no one has a positive connection at the stove top like we do them. We never have any smoke smell issues either...


You're playing your cards close to the vest...I guess he'll have to hire you to find out how you do it.


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## Highbeam (Mar 17, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> You could tell if it was coming from the door gasket, as many have reported.



Meh, not conclusively. The stove is piping hot and those fumes rise while clinging to the steel. I feel bad for those with a smell as it doesn’t matter where the leak is it shouldn’t leak.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 17, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> not conclusively.


Where else could it come out, besides the door gasket or the flue collar? Ash dump? Doesn't seem likely...


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## Highbeam (Mar 17, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Where else could it come out, besides the door gasket or the flue collar? Ash dump? Doesn't seem likely...



All are possible and all are unlikely. All gaskets can leak or ooze stench. The cat probe hole, all welds on all seams, the flue connection.


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## bholler (Mar 17, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> Almost no one has a positive connection at the stove top like we do them. We never have any smoke smell issues either...


What do you mean by almost no one has a positive connection like you do?  How many other installers work have you seen?  And i also find it very hard to beleive a stove shop has never had a complaint about smoke smell.  I cant think of any we had due to our install but there have been plenty of problems due to user error restricted chimneys etc.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 17, 2019)

So I removed 3ft of chimney and that has lowered the draft to about 0.12-0.13 on high. The initial load of 4 logs and kindling took forever to burn. Maybe 4hrs. Everything seemed fine and the stove pipe was about 50°F cooler.

I reloaded 30lbs NS and let it burn about 20min. It seems to be slowing down in the medium cat range. It hasn't snuffed the flame but I think I am smelling a small hint of creo smell already in the hallway. I can smell a bit around the probe/collar still. I guess the question is whether that will build all night or just temporary as the draft is slowing.

It seems pretty unlikely there is literal smoke blowing into the room. It's more like there is some type of creo deposit getting hot and it gets in a spot where the draft can't suck the vapors into the chimney. Maybe it builds enough to block itself off. That's why I was guessing it might be getting some wafts around the inner flue collar. It seemed like a sign that blowing a hair dryer up the flue blasts creo crumbs out the stove connections.

It's kind of a relief the chimney isn't a complete failure but completely baffled where to go from here. Maybe a new stove next year? How do I know it won't have this problem?


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> So I removed 3ft of chimney and that has lowered the draft to about 0.12-0.13 on high. The initial load of 4 logs and kindling took forever to burn. Maybe 4hrs. Everything seemed fine and the stove pipe was about 50°F cooler.
> 
> I reloaded 30lbs NS and let it burn about 20min. It seems to be slowing down in the medium cat range. It hasn't snuffed the flame but I think I am smelling a small hint of creo smell already in the hallway. I can smell a bit around the probe/collar still. I guess the question is whether that will build all night or just temporary as the draft is slowing.
> 
> ...


Just out of curiousity what does the manometer read with no fire at all?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

It was getting down to about 0.02" when the stove was at 80-90°F STT.

And @Highbeam, you don't have to be so pedantic. Yes, I understand the cat probe is not the same temp as STT for example, but I have a separate gauge that I use for reference and it tracks very closely with STT ranges. As far as general ranges, over a 30min time frame, low, medium and high cat temp all matched some STT range. Low was approx 150-250, medium 250-400, high about 400-600. Sure, it can spike for 10min or so on certain conditions.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

And update: it has lost the flame and lots of creo smell is in the hallway upstairs. It at least is running cooler so it is more useable for shoulder season. Windows back open for the night... Meter is reading 0.08" on medium setting ~60%.

Going back to EW loads tomorrow. Maybe that burns more smoke before sucking out the cat? Did great this morning with a smaller load. 

Guess I will give BK a call tomorrow with this new info. They can't blame it on an uninsulated chimney.


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## begreen (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Guess I will give BK a call tomorrow with this new info. They can't blame it on an uninsulated chimney.



Is this connected to a metal stainless chimney outside? If so, this is insulated.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

begreen said:


> Is this connected to a metal stainless chimney outside? If so, this is insulated.


Yes. Uncovered external chimney. Selkirk UT class A chimney.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> What do you mean by almost no one has a positive connection like you do?  How many other installers work have you seen?  And i also find it very hard to beleive a stove shop has never had a complaint about smoke smell.  I cant think of any we had due to our install but there have been plenty of problems due to user error restricted chimneys etc.


How do most installers attach double wall pipe to a flue collar? The factory stove pipe adaptor is typically just sat over the flue collar, it’s certainly not sealed well or secure most often. I feel that this could be the source of the smell on some of these problemed stoves.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Sounds like possibility not a perfect draft and maybe a connector problem? There aren't even any screws connecting the DVL adapter to the stove outlet, just slipped on. Should they have also put some sealant on all the DVL


I haven’t been following this thread. But this is what I found on the first page...


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

We install an Ameri-vent single wall adaptor into the flue collar. You need to trim it down to fit the flue collar, each stove is different. This gets secured with screws to the flue collar. Then your DVL sits firmly down onto the bell of this adaptor. Then you are able to predrill through the factory holes of the DVL and attach it to the adaptor using 1” SS screws. It’s a very secure connection and you could even use some furnace cement if you felt it necessary. This works very well for us, if you haven’t thrown in the towel yet it may be worth a try. 

Excel has essentially the same type of adaptor for their pipe I’m told.


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## moresnow (Mar 18, 2019)

The OP got rid of the adapter early on to eliminate that poor connection. He is running his DSP directly to the collar. Nice tight fit I have been told. As I have experienced. 
Just to clear up this topic! Unless something has changed.

I recommended he go this route as it has worked nicely on a few BK's for me. Guessing he will confirm shortly.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

Thanks Webby. Selkirk also has a DSP flush mount adapter which is essentially the same concept. I mushed a bunch of HT gasket around the inner flue edge to try blocking off any possible deposits from getting in there. It is of course not an airtight seal, but there should be limited amount of buildup if there was any. Of course I'm still getting vapors emitting from the stove detectible only wafting around the collar/cat probe.

Luckily the temp is way more under control now. The outside of the stove pipe stays between 150-200°F rather than getting above 250°F with the extended chimney.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

moresnow said:


> The OP got rid of the adapter early on to eliminate that poor connection. He is running his DSP directly to the collar. Nice tight fit I have been told. As I have experienced.
> Just to clear up this topic! Unless something has changed.
> 
> I recommended he go this route as it has worked nicely on a few BK's for me. Guessing he will confirm shortly.


Good deal, I didn’t read all the way through. We don’t do that because the pipe is just sitting there, especially with a 90! There’s not much keeping pipe up.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Thanks Webby. Selkirk also has a DSP flush mount adapter which is essentially the same concept. I mushed a bunch of HT gasket around the inner flue edge to try blocking off any possible deposits from getting in there.
> 
> Luckily the temp is way more under control now. The outside of the stove pipe stays between 150-200°F rather than getting above 250°F with the extended chimney.


Did you switch out the DVL for DSP?


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> How do most installers attach double wall pipe to a flue collar? The factory stove pipe adaptor is typically just sat over the flue collar, it’s certainly not sealed well or secure most often. I feel that this could be the source of the smell on some of these problemed stoves.


That may be typical for your area but not here.  Even the guys I consider to be hacks attach to the stove.  I always attach it. When we go to do a double wall install we go with the 3 different adapters ventis makes.  Between them and just the pipe end one will fit well.  I don't mix pipe brands when dealing with ul listed products in order to stay code compliant.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> That may be typical for your area but not here.  Even the guys I consider to be hacks attach to the stove.  I always attach it. When we go to do a double wall install we go with the 3 different adapters ventis makes.  Between them and just the pipe end one will fit well.  I don't mix pipe brands when dealing with ul listed products in order to stay code compliant.


It’s just a small piece of SS, I wouldn’t consider it mixing brands necessarily. If ventis makes a stovetop adaptor and you don’t use it, just set the pipe on the flue collar, is that ok? In the event of a claim, I’d bet they would have a problem with that too.
If you just use the pipe end of double wall, how do you attach it?


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> It’s just a small piece of SS, I wouldn’t consider it mixing brands necessarily. If ventis makes a stovetop adaptor and you don’t use it, just sat the pipe on the flue collar, is that ok? In the event of an claim, I’d bet they would have a problem with that too.
> If you just use the pipe end of double wall, how do you attach it?


No it wouldnt be a problem at all it is allowed in the manual.  And if i just use the pipe i drill it and attach it.   If you don't have the double wall components all the way to the stove what clearance do you go by?


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> No it wouldnt be a problem at all it is allowed in the manual.  And if i just use the pipe i drill it and attach it.   If you don't have the double wall components all the way to the stove what clearance do you go by?


It does go all the way to the stove.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> It does go all the way to the stove.


Then where does your extra adapter go?  If you are putting a peice of single wall in there you can't be sitting down as far as it should be or as it was tested for clearances.  If you can't do it properly with the supplied system components maybe you should consider switching brands to one with more options


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> Then where does your extra adapter go?  If you are putting a peice of single wall in there you can't be sitting down as far as it should be or as it was tested for clearances.  If you can't do it properly with the supplied system components maybe you should consider switching brands to one with more options


You aren’t familiar with it and I knew you’d tear the idea apart. It’s a real world solution for a situation that often comes up on here, and in the real world. It works well and is versatile.
So are manufacturers ok with you drilling holes through their flue collars to attach pipe?


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> You aren’t familiar with it and I knew you’d tear the idea apart. It’s a real world solution for a situation that often comes up on here, and in the real world. It works well and is versatile.
> So are manufacturers ok with you drilling holes through their flue collars to attach pipe?


There are almost always holes there already that I use.  If there are no holes in the collar then yes I will drill them.  But that is very uncommon.
 You still haven't answered how you can put a single wall adapter in a ul listed double wall system it wasn't designed for and keep the listed clearances.  We don't get to make up our own clearances.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> There are almost always holes there already that I use.  If there are no holes in the collar then yes I will drill them.  But that is very uncommon.
> You still haven't answered how you can put a single wall adapter in a ul listed double wall system it wasn't designed for and keep the listed clearances.  We don't get to make up our own clearances.


The double wall covers this piece And sits flush with the top of the flue collar. But I know you aren’t really interested in how it works, rather looking for a way to discredit someone.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> The double wall covers this piece And sits flush with the top of the flue collar. But I know you aren’t really interested in how it works, rather looking for a way to discredit someone.


I am not the one who said no one else attaches or seals st the collar.

I am curious who in your company decides when it is acceptable to use unlisted components with a listed system ignoring the manufacturers instructions.  Where do they draw the line?  Are installers allowed to make those decisions in the field?


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## brenndatomu (Mar 18, 2019)




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## Ashful (Mar 18, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Where else could it come out, besides the door gasket or the flue collar? Ash dump? Doesn't seem likely...



Some have claimed the cat probe hole.  Another guy had a bad weld that was oozing creo and baking it on the outside.

Others have claimed wet creo or water boiling off the logs soaking thru the gasket and baking on the outside.  Yes, still a “leaking at gasket” claim, but these users make a distinction, it is oozing creo and not directly leaking smoke.

I’m not sure my nose is good enough to make the distinction.  I know the sweet licorice smell of smoldering too-wet oak on low burn, but if my stove were making the house smell of smoke, I’d probably have a tough time to determining the source of it.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> I am not the one who said no one else attaches or seals st the collar.
> 
> I am curious who in your company decides when it is acceptable to use unlisted components with a listed system ignoring the manufacturers instructions.  Where do they draw the line?  Are installers allowed to make those decisions in the field?


Give it a rest. I’m just trying to offer a solution that works. 
 I’ve never seen so many locked thread in the 10 years or so since I’ve been here. If there’s something you don’t agree with, you argue until the thread is locked. People looking for a solution are just out of luck because of your arguing.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Some have claimed the cat probe hole.  Another guy had a bad weld that was oozing creo and baking it on the outside.
> 
> Others have claimed wet creo or water boiling off the logs soaking thru the basket and baking on the outside.  Yes, still a “leaking at gasket” claim, but these users make a distinction, it is oozing creo and not directly leaking smoke.
> 
> I’m not sure my nose is good enough to make the distinction.  I know the sweet licorice smell of smoldering too-wet oak on low burn, but if my stove were making the house smell of smoke, I’d probably have a tough time to determining the source of it.


We’ve had a few stoves a couple of years back that had a bad weld. BK replaced both stoves, at no cost to us or the customer, even though replacement wasn’t necessary. They wanted it back to look it over for other missed welds. Neither of which were experiencing smoke smell issues.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> Give it a rest. I’m just trying to offer a solution that works.
> I’ve never seen so many locked thread in the 10 years or so since I’ve been here. If there’s something you don’t agree with, you argue until the thread is locked. People looking for a solution are just out of luck because of your arguing.


I am sorry that I don't agree with a pro telling novices it is ok to ignore manufacturers instructions and just make it work.  It is a very slippery slope that can lead to dangerous installs.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> I am sorry that I don't agree with a pro telling novices it is ok to ignore manufacturers instructions and just make it work.  It is a very slippery slope that can lead to dangerous installs.


I appreciate your concern for folks, I really do. This is not something that’s unsafe by any means. Many of the brands only offer one stovetop adaptor that simply sits on the flue collar and doesn’t seal well. It’s a solution to a problem that some manufacturers leave as a grey area.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> I appreciate your concern for folks, I really do. This is not something that’s unsafe by any means. Many of the brands only offer one stovetop adaptor that simply sits on the flue collar and doesn’t seal well. It’s a solution to a problem that some manufacturers leave as a grey area.


I absolutely agree some adapters fit like crap.  But I personally don't see that ignoring manufacturers instructions is ever the right solution.  I agree in this case I don't think it is unsafe.  But we as pros should never say it is ok to ignore instructions.  It just open up a very dangerous can of worms.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

Hey guys. I have no adapter anymore. It seems to be producing significantly less creo smell since then, but still smelling. That adapter was a piece of crap. The internal pipe was maybe hallway into the stove collar. Just the act of turning down the tstat was enough to puff a bunch of this smell.
I'm not sure it's exactly a smoke smell like a campfire, just the sweet dirty chimney creo smell. I don't know if it's actually smoke leaking out or some type of smell coming from hot creo somewhere. I would guess it is the latter.

It seems like the current signs are pointing to creo absorbing in the door gasket, though I can waft all around the door gasket and smell nothing, but waft around the probe/collar area and clearly get smell.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Hey guys. I have no adapter anymore. It seems to be producing significantly less creo smell since then, but still smelling. That adapter was a piece of crap. The internal pipe was maybe hallway into the stove collar. Just the act of turning down the tstat was enough to puff a bunch of this smell.
> I'm not sure it's exactly a smoke smell, like a campfire, just the sweet dirty chimney creo smell. I don't know if it's actually smoke leaking out or some type of smell coming from hot creo somewhere. I would guess it is the latter.
> 
> It seems like the current signs are pointing to creo absorbing in the door gasket, though I can waft all around the door gasket and smell nothing, but waft around the probe/collar area and clearly get smell.


Maybe it’s time to try a positive connection at the stovetop?


----------



## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Hey guys. I have no adapter anymore. It seems to be producing significantly less creo smell since then, but still smelling. That adapter was a piece of crap. The internal pipe was maybe hallway into the stove collar. Just the act of turning down the tstat was enough to puff a bunch of this smell.
> I'm not sure it's exactly a smoke smell, like a campfire, just the sweet dirty chimney creo smell. I don't know if it's actually smoke leaking out or some type of smell coming from hot creo somewhere. I would guess it is the latter.
> 
> It seems like the current signs are pointing to creo absorbing in the door gasket, though I can waft all around the door gasket and smell nothing, but waft around the probe/collar area and clearly get smell.


When these few cases of smoke smell issues arise, it’s so hard to pinpoint. Seems like everyone smells it at or near the stovetop, I like to eliminate that flue collar connection first. Too bad you are so far away or I’d be glad to take a look at it.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> consider switching brands to one with more options


Sounds like you had to search around until you found what was most versatile. I could be wrong but I'm guessing that most probably settle for whatever the local supply house stocks, so they don't have to pay shipping. All three of my in-laws have Selkirk, even though they were done by different builders or installers.
Down here, there's plenty of slap-dash hack work with duct tape and bailing wire solutions. I don't know if you were here when I told of looking at my BIL's install by "a guy who used to work at the stove shop." Maybe he only cut the grass there, but the support box was fastened with one screw, into one joist. The weight of the chimney had bent it down to where it wasn't even close to level. It started pushing the trim plate away from the ceiling on one side, was how I noticed it. I had to crawl up there in limited space and box off the joists as best I could (bad routing of the chimney, with stuff in the way preventing a straight-forward box-off.)


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## moresnow (Mar 18, 2019)

With upstairs windows closed you should be able to eliminate the probe hole easily. Plug the hole and see if its fixed! Right?

  If that does not stop the smell you may have to consider pulling the cast cladding (prior to firing up. ouch!). God I am gonna pay for this suggestion 
Then fire up for a more in depth look/smell/visual inspection. Do this only under constant supervision of coarse as this is clearly not a accepted/tested/by the book procedure!  Possibly add some extra temporary shielding, and get your fire dept., local LEO, EMT's, dealer rep., faith advisor etc. on standby.....

 How else are you going to find out? Really? Other than installing a rather proven Princess model as a "control" unit. That would be the real answer if realistically possible. Be nice to say its just this particular Ashford that has a problem. Or its plainly does not! 

Obviously injecting a bit of humor here fellas. Anybody have a better diagnostic procedure at this point? Surely the OP is open to suggestion. Page 16 BTW. Wow


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

Thanks Webby... I'm not sure what you mean by a positive flue collar connection? Replace with an adapter like the Selkirk DSP flush mount adapter?

https://www.northlineexpress.com/6-dsp-flush-stove-adaptor-dsp-6-fsa-5392.html

Unfortunately there is no space for it. I'd have to replace my vertical stove pipe. The other problem is that every time I put in a new part it takes 2 weeks to cure and there is tons of smell from that. Probably worse for the health than this creo odor.  I think we're getting down to the final two weeks or so of burning here.  Over 45°F I barely need any heat.

I might be able to struggle by with E-W loads for 2 weeks.  It seems like I can turn that down without losing the flame and on Saturday it did great burn without a flame in E-W with no smell for several hours. That would help to run it low for the warmer days.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

moresnow said:


> With upstairs windows closed you should be able to eliminate the probe hole easily. Plug the hole and see if its fixed! Right?
> 
> If that does not stop the smell you may have to consider pulling the cast cladding (prior to firing up. ouch!). God I am gonna pay for this suggestion
> Then fire up for a more in depth look/smell/visual inspection. Do this only under constant supervision of coarse as this is clearly not a accepted/tested/by the book procedure!  Possibly add some extra temporary shielding, and get your fire dept., local LEO, EMT's, dealer rep., faith advisor etc. on standby.....
> ...


Removing the cladding temporarily or modifying anything in any manner or thinking outside the box isn’t permitted by the fireplace police!


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Thanks Webby... I'm not sure what you mean by a positive flue collar connection? Replace with an adapter like the Selkirk DSP flush mount adapter?


Not really, that’s for stoves with recessed flue collars. I outlined the procedure earlier. Your vertical pipe should have a slip section that allows some modifications or service. You’ll need to pull that pipe up periodically to clean behind the cat, a slip will be necessary for this.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

@moresnow I covered the probe hole with a screw at one point and was still getting smell.  Just loosely dropped on top though.  That's what pointed me to replace the crappy stove pipe adapter.  That certainly helped a lot.  With the tightened collar it seems to only smell with N-S loads smoking within an inch or two of the glass.  The stubbornness of this smell has certainly surprised me though.

@webby3650 you are talking about a telescoping pipe? I didn't understand your other posts.  Or just using that flush mount adapter piece? So does that just eat up extra gap between the stove collar and my inner pipe? BTW, I never got DVL as quoted by the installer. Always Selkirk DSP.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @moresnow I covered the probe hole with a screw at one point and was still getting smell.  Just loosely dropped on top though.  That's what pointed me to replace the crappy stove pipe adapter.  That certainly helped a lot.  With the tightened collar it seems to only smell with N-S loads smoking within an inch or two of the glass.  The stubbornness of this smell has certainly surprised me though.
> 
> @webby3650 you are talking about a telescoping pipe? I didn't understand your other posts.  Or just using that flush mount adapter piece? So does that just eat up extra gap between the stove collar and my inner pipe? BTW, I never got DVL as quoted by the installer. Always Selkirk DSP.


Yes, your vertical pipe should have a telescoping section. 
We don’t use DSP, the fit and finish leaves a lot to be desired to say the least..


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

moresnow said:


> With upstairs windows closed you should be able to eliminate the probe hole easily. Plug the hole and see if its fixed! Right?
> 
> If that does not stop the smell you may have to consider pulling the cast cladding (prior to firing up. ouch!). God I am gonna pay for this suggestion
> Then fire up for a more in depth look/smell/visual inspection. Do this only under constant supervision of coarse as this is clearly not a accepted/tested/by the book procedure!  Possibly add some extra temporary shielding, and get your fire dept., local LEO, EMT's, dealer rep., faith advisor etc. on standby.....
> ...


That would be for diagnostic purposes and it would be monitored.  I see no issue with that at all.


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## lsucet (Mar 18, 2019)

Permit granted


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Sounds like you had to search around until you found what was most versatile. I could be wrong but I'm guessing that most probably settle for whatever the local supply house stocks, so they don't have to pay shipping. All three of my in-laws have Selkirk, even though they were done by different builders or installers.
> Down here, there's plenty of slap-dash hack work with duct tape and bailing wire solutions. I don't know if you were here when I told of looking at my BIL's install by "a guy who used to work at the stove shop." Maybe he only cut the grass there, but the support box was fastened with one screw, into one joist. The weight of the chimney had bent it down to where it wasn't even close to level. It started pushing the trim plate away from the ceiling on one side, was how I noticed it. I had to crawl up there in limited space and box off the joists as best I could (bad routing of the chimney, with stuff in the way preventing a straight-forward box-off.)


I didn't have to search I was lucky enough to come into a business where that was all done.  Now yes when new product come to market we may try them if we feel they would be better or easier but my father already had changed over to Olympia products which for the most part we have been very happy with.  And we don't pay shipping on them either


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> Yes, your vertical pipe should have a telescoping section.
> We don’t use DSP, the fit and finish leaves a lot to be desired to say the least..


Yes, we can thank the installers for that.  Unfortunately Selkirk does not have any telescoping sections in the 18-29" range.  I bought a 12-18" telescoping pipe and it is too short.  The next type is 38"-68".  I highly recommend against DSP. It seems very poor quality pipe to me.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes, we can thank the installers for that.  Unfortunately Selkirk does not have any telescoping sections in the 18-29" range.  I bought a 12-18" telescoping pipe and it is too short.  The next type is 38"-68".  I highly recommend against DSP. It seems very poor quality pipe to me.


I agree it is not very nice pipe at all.  You could get a short straight section to use the short slip.   But personally I would switch out for better pipe.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes, we can thank the installers for that.  Unfortunately Selkirk does not have any telescoping sections in the 18-29" range.  I bought a 12-18" telescoping pipe and it is too short.  The next type is 38"-68".  I highly recommend against DSP. It seems very poor quality pipe to me.


A 12” piece with a 16” adjustable would be what you need, or an 18” with a 12” adjustable. It won’t be a kit, but it’s available.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> That would be for diagnostic purposes and it would be monitored.  I see no issue with that at all.


I've taken a look at most of the welds on the top of the stove and door. The only thing noticeable is that there is no weld at the stove collar connection at the top/external envelope of the stove, but there is a good weld on the inside at the end of the flue connector.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> A 12” piece with a 16” adjustable would be what you need, or an 18” with a 12” adjustable. It won’t be a kit, but it’s available.


It fits nicely with a 2ft straight section so I could get a 6"+my 12-18" adjustable section.  Again, I really don't want to have to cure another pipe though. Maybe for next season.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It fits nicely with a 2ft straight section so I could get a 6"+my 12-18" adjustable section.  Again, I really don't want to have to cure another pipe though. Maybe for next season.


No offense, but you’ve mentioned this curing paint thing a lot. Also you were put off by the installers painting the pipe during installation. This is usually not a big deal, almost every install requires some touch up painting. With a jacketed stove and double wall pipe the burn off is usually pretty minimal, are you particularly sensitive to smells? I always ask before I use spray paint, only one out of a few hundred installs that I can remember have said not to.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It fits nicely with a 2ft straight section so I could get a 6"+my 12-18" adjustable section.  Again, I really don't want to have to cure another pipe though. Maybe for next season.


You don't have to cure ventis pipe.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

bholler said:


> You don't have to cure ventis pipe.


Water based paint? Powder coat? 
The new Kuma stoves also say that there’s no burn off smell.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> Water based paint? Powder coat?
> The new Kuma stoves also say that there’s no burn off smell.


They won't say but I think it must be water based.  It definitely isn't powder coat.  All I know is it is pretty durable and it doesn't stink when fired up even with single wall.  The only problem is it is a pita to touch up.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 18, 2019)

I still see that you are worried about snuffing out the flame. This is fine as long as the cat is in the active range. I'm also unsure of why it takes two weeks for your pipe components to break in.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I still see that you are worried about snuffing out the flame. This is fine as long as the cat is in the active range. I'm also unsure of why it takes two weeks for your pipe components to break in.


It’s usually done curing within the first few days.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

It hasn't been very cold out. Never really got the stove above 400°F with the new pipe.  Remember too my draft has been over 0.15" W.C. for several weeks. Most of the smell went away after a few hotter burns but a small amount of paint was there for another week.
I don't want chemicals in our house. That's why I tried to get one of the cleanest burning stoves on the market. How it turned out I'm probably giving most of the family members cancer from all the smoke and paint and creo fumes.

@SpaceBus, it's not that I'm worried about losing the flame, I understand that's the idea. The problem is that low to no flame with a good load almost always guarantees I will get creo smell.


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## webby3650 (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It hasn't been very cold out. Never really got the stove above 400°F with the new pipe.  Most of the smell went away after a few hotter burns but a small amount of paint was there for another week.


Let that thing rip! Maybe you have been prolonging the burn off? 400 isn’t much..


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 18, 2019)

webby3650 said:


> Let that thing rip! Maybe you have been prolonging the burn off? 400 isn’t much..


Yes, I got the stove to about 600°F several times with the initial install. Right now its at 250°F STT and 75°F inside. In the teens or low 20's it's at 400°F STT for 72°F.


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## Ashful (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Remember too my draft has been over 0.15" W.C. for several weeks.


I don't think @aaronk25 responded when I called him out the other day, so I'll explain his theory.  He had been having the smoke smell problem, so he started measuring draft, and found his draft was also much higher than spec.  He theorized that the strong draft was causing localized positive pressure where the air wash hits the door, so he installed a key damper to control it.

I believe it resolved his issue, and that a few others have also followed his advice with success.  He would know better than I.  BK is unable to recommend you use a key damper, even if they believe you should, as the EPA will not allow them to recommend or discuss the use of devices with which the stove was not qualified.

I am sure there are at least three technical errors in what I've just said, bholler and aaronk25 will fix them, but the spirit of what I'm saying is correct.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I don't think @aaronk25 responded when I called him out the other day, so I'll explain his theory.  He had been having the smoke smell problem, so he started measuring draft, and found his draft was also much higher than spec.  He theorized that the strong draft was causing localized positive pressure where the air wash hits the door, so he installed a key damper to control it.
> 
> I believe it resolved his issue, and that a few others have also followed his advice with success.  He would know better than I.  BK is unable to recommend you use a key damper, even if they believe you should, as the EPA will not allow them to recommend or discuss the use of devices with which the stove was not qualified.
> 
> I am sure there are at least three technical errors in what I've just said, bholler and aaronk25 will fix them, but the spirit of what I'm saying is correct.


What you said is entirely possible.  I honestly dont know but it is worth a try.


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## bholler (Mar 18, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes, I got the stove to about 600°F several times with the initial install. Right now its at 250°F STT and 75°F inside. In the teens or low 20's it's at 400°F STT for 72°F.


Do you need the doublewall for clearances?  If not i would try switching it out for some cheap singlewall and put a key damper in to bring your draft within spec to see if it helps.  I doubt that is the issue but it would cost much to give it a try.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 19, 2019)

I know my draft was pretty bad with the original 90 and shorter chimney. The smell seemed better with the higher draft. It would suck to lose draft because I already have some smoke spillage with 0.08" draft. Do get that Ashful if you are running at 0.18" draft?

So other than the turbulence theory I've heard another theory about creosote soaking into the door gasket.

I'm running a larger E-W load with some gap to the glass at about 55% tstat setting. It worked completely fine like this over the weekend without a flame.  That last creo smell I had was with logs within 1-2" of the glass. Don't know why I would be the only one with that issue though.  Some of this years stash was cut at 17.5" which gets it a little close to the glass.


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## bholler (Mar 19, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I know my draft was pretty bad with the original 90 and shorter chimney. The smell seemed better with the higher draft. It would suck to lose draft because I already have some smoke spillage with 0.08" draft. Do get that Ashful if you are running at 0.18" draft?
> 
> So other than the turbulence theory I've heard another theory about creosote soaking into the door gasket.
> 
> I'm running a larger E-W load with some gap to the glass at about 55% tstat setting. It worked completely fine like this over the weekend without a flame.  That last creo smell I had was with logs within 1-2" of the glass. Don't know why I would be the only one with that issue though.  Some of this years stash was cut at 17.5" which gets it a little close to the glass.


An inch from the glass shouldn't cause any issues


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## Rickb (Mar 19, 2019)

I don't have the same stove but I went almost 2 years with too long of wood and almost all my loads where right at the glass.  I had to angle pieces so they wouldn't hit the glass and I never had any kind of strong smell.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 19, 2019)

@bholler Assume you mean there _shouldn't_ be any issues getting close to the glass?  Even if there happens to be one 22% MC log vs 20%?


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## bholler (Mar 19, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @bholler Assume you mean there _shouldn't_ be any issues getting close to the glass?  Even if there happens to be one 22% MC log vs 20%?


Yes sorry I will fix that.  The moisture content has and the length are unrelated.  But those moisture levels are on the high side and could be contributing.  

And I didn't say to close to the glass couldnt cause issues but an inch isn't to close


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## Ashful (Mar 19, 2019)

bholler said:


> An inch from the glass shouldn't cause any issues



To clear things up (maybe), I was the one who started talking about issues with running an Ashford 30 with long wood that came too close to the glass.  In my case, it was not related to odor from the stove, but to the clogging of the combustor.  I noticed the way the airwash, thanks to my too-tall chimney, was sweeping ash right off the tops of the logs and into the combustor.  You could literally see it happening at high burn rates, before I installed the key damper.

Coupling that to @aaronk25’s theory on airwash contributing to the smoke smell isn’t completely far-fetched, but I haven’t seen anyone make any any direct observations or experiments to create any connection between wood close to the glass and occurrence of smoke smell, other than some posts you made earlier in this thread where you were loading E-W and seeming to have some better success.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 20, 2019)

My OAK isn't working as I'd hoped, I still smell smoke in the house in the  morning.


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## MissMac (Mar 20, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> My OAK isn't working as I'd hoped, I still smell smoke in the house in the  morning.


How do I give this a thumbs down?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 20, 2019)

@MissMac same with you too right? Did you look at replacing the stove adapter? That and cleaning out my chimney and pipe I think reduced my smoke/creo smell quite significantly (maybe half or 2/3).

@AlbergSteve what are your draft readings? I would try opening a window and see if that makes any difference. If you have a manometer set up you could easily tell how your draft is affected. I should have done that months ago. For instance I can see that closing the bypass drops draft by about 0.02". I didn't notice any difference opening or closing windows.  I don't think a continuous monitoring is necessary unless your draft is much lower.  For me the draft boosts up to 0.08" within seconds of warming the chimney. It holds at least that high with any decent amount of coals available.  Then it slowly drops to 0.02" at the cat goes inactive and all the coals burn out over several hours.

Also I ran a great E-W burn yesterday. I got it up to active temp and slowly dropped it to about 55% tstat.  It ran from 6:30am to 6:30pm active, then was relight-able at 8:30pm.  Rooms stayed about 75°F all day. I think that was the first time I went straight into the overnight burn. I was wondering if there was any smell, wife did not notice anything with window slightly cracked upstairs.  I tried to repeat the process at night and noticed there was a small amount of creo/smoke when the burn slowed down. I left the window open though and you could barely notice later in the night and morning. It was a bit hotter when I turned it down and the burn was much slower.
No idea how I got a smokeless burn over the weekend without any smell...

Called BK (Manny) and emailed them some information. I'll note about you two also having the problem.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 20, 2019)

Draft testing is next. I do think it's important to measure draft over time because I want to see what it's doing over night or when I'm not standing there looking at it. Probably order a manometer this week.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 20, 2019)

MissMac said:


> How do I give this a thumbs down?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 20, 2019)

This worked great for me:

Dwyer MK2
Dwyer Portable Static Pr Tip, A-303, For 3/16" Plastic/Rubber Tubing
SUPCO SSRT3165 Silicone Tubing, 5 Feet Length, Red, 3/16" Inside Diameter, 5/16" Outside Diameter
I just stuck the manometer to the wall with some 3M command strips. The draft is very consistent and behaves how you expect.  If you go to bed with the draft at 0.1" and wake up at 0.08" its not going to have dipped to 0.01" at some point overnight. I stared at it for awhile  
For me that smell starts 1-2hrs into the burn at the same point. Right when the airflow starts slowing down with a box full of hot charred logs.  I can smell it start around the collar.  Its really a mystery why it doesn't show up on the few occasions.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 21, 2019)

I timed the loading last night a little bit off and got the box too cold. I had a half smoldering log in there and while starting up I realized the smell we are getting is exactly that same smell. Like a hot smoldering [ash] log. So it seems like we are getting some of this smoldering log vapor/smoke leaking out of the stove if there is a small reduction in draft (0.12 to 0.08 for example) during medium/low burns.


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## Ashful (Mar 21, 2019)

Data is a wonderful thing.


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## Mnpellet (Mar 21, 2019)

@Ashful didnt you say you got a little smell when burning wood that was sub par moisture content?


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## Ashful (Mar 21, 2019)

Mnpellet said:


> @Ashful didnt you say you got a little smell when burning wood that was sub par moisture content?


I don’t think I said that, but I have to admit my memory isn’t always very good.  The only time I can recall getting a wood smell is:

1.  When I let the stove on the tall chimney rip wide-open, and have the stove on the short chimney burning at a very low rate.  My theory here it that I’m robbing too much make-up air from the house for the one stove, and this is affecting draft on the other.

2.  When wind patterns drive the smoke from the top of one of my chimneys toward the other half of the house, and it gets drawn in with make-up air.  I don’t have an OAK on either stove, and my house is shaped like a big “U”.  I can stand in the room with one stove, and look across the patio at the other half of the house, with the other stove.

3.  When I have bits of wood debris collecting on the ledge beneath the loading door, or (possibly) in the ash pan drawer.  They just bake there, getting plenty hot, and it’s outside the enevelope of the stove.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I don’t think I said that, but I have to admit my memory isn’t always very good.  The only time I can recall getting a wood smell is:
> 
> 1.  When I let the stove on the tall chimney rip wide-open, and have the stove on the short chimney burning at a very low rate.  My theory here it that I’m robbing too much make-up air from the house for the one stove, and this is affecting draft on the other.
> 
> ...



I had the idea that the smell is coming back into the house with the make up air, but that proved to be unpopular. I still don't understand how any air could come out of the stove if it is under vacuum and the door is not open.


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## Ashful (Mar 21, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I had the idea that the smell is coming back into the house with the make up air, but that proved to be unpopular. I still don't understand how any air could come out of the stove if it is under vacuum and the door is not open.



“Vacuum” implies a static situation, and the volume of air moving thru your stove per second being small compared to the firebox volume does put it close to a static situation, but we should be careful in oversimplifying what is really a dynamic situation.  Whatever the CFM is, it is relatively focused coming off that airwash inlet at the top of the door, and I suppose it is possible that the pressure there is substantially higher than the static pressure of the firebox.  In other words, the firebox might be at a net -0.05”WC, but locally right in front of the airwash it is possible we could have +0.01”WC, relative to room pressure.  Giovanni Venturi tought us that, more than 200 years ago.

I’m just making these numbers up, to fit the narrative that’s been proposed, but the theory has merit.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

Ashful said:


> “Vacuum” implies a static situation, and the volume of air moving thru your stove per second being small compared to the firebox volume does put it close to a static situation, but we should be careful in oversimplifying what is really a dynamic situation.  Whatever the CFM is, it is relatively focused coming off that airwash inlet at the top of the door, and I suppose it is possible that the pressure there is substantially higher than the static pressure of the firebox.  In other words, the firebox might be at a net -0.05”WC, but locally right in front of the airwash it is possible we could have +0.01”WC, relative to room pressure.
> 
> I’m just making these numbers up, to fit the narrative that’s been proposed, but the theory has merit.



You can have vaccum without a static situation. Have you ever measured vaccum on an engine? Vaccum changes depending on throttle position and RPM. It changes on the stove as well. How is the smell coming out of the stove or any connection between flue sections? Stoves don't start stinking up the house when they crack, they become uncontrollable. OP's stove seems to die if the intake is closed, so no substantial air leaks.

Is the stove puffing? I just thought about how I could always tell my dying defiant was puffing because I could smell it. Perhaps the thermostat is closing down the intake, stalling the draft, and then puffing occurs.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 21, 2019)

There is also a huge plate right behind the cat.  The air hitting that plate will have a large pressure increase and it happens to be right where the cat probe hole is located.

@SpaceBus  I'm measuring the draft now. The pipe is almost always above 0.08" W.C. during the whole burn. It can be emitting this smell with 0.1"W.C. or higher. Just seems to depend on how much char smoke is in the box.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> There is also a huge plate right behind the cat.  The air hitting that plate will have a large pressure increase and it happens to be right where the cat probe hole is located.


Hold a match or lighter over the hole. You will know if air comes out or not.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 21, 2019)

Interesting idea SpaceBus. I could also use my Dwyer gauge to probe around that area. It should have some vacuum.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 21, 2019)

Has nobody suggested using incense to look for leaks yet?


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## Mnpellet (Mar 21, 2019)

Maybe it was someone else or I remembered wrong, both possible. I thought last season you said when burning oak that wasn’t seasoned as long as your good stuff you got a creo smell. 


Ashful said:


> I don’t think I said that, but I have to admit my memory isn’t always very good.  The only time I can recall getting a wood smell is:
> 
> 1.  When I let the stove on the tall chimney rip wide-open, and have the stove on the short chimney burning at a very low rate.  My theory here it that I’m robbing too much make-up air from the house for the one stove, and this is affecting draft on the other.
> 
> ...


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 21, 2019)

Alright, well BK is sending a Door Gasket Kit. They think that has fixed this problem before. Steve did you try that already? If I get it before the season ends I'll try that and I think that's the last thing I'm trying on this stove. Then I'm going to have to start looking for a replacement.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 21, 2019)

Hmm. I just tried the dollar bill test around the whole door and it was fine. I do see the gasket a little thin on this bottom side. Not sure how to tell if that's the problem.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 22, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Hmm. I just tried the dollar bill test around the whole door and it was fine. I do see the gasket a little thin on this bottom side. Not sure how to tell if that's the problem.


Hard to think that any smoke is leaking at the bottom of the box, especially if the gasket is tight along there. Maybe creo smell through a soaked gasket, though? At the same time, hard to imagine "creo smell" getting to different rooms of the house. Creo _smoke,_ maybe...


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## SpaceBus (Mar 22, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Hard to think that any smoke is leaking at the bottom of the box, especially if the gasket is tight along there. Maybe creo smell through a soaked gasket, though? At the same time, hard to imagine "creo smell" getting to different rooms of the house. Creo _smoke,_ maybe...



That's why I was thinking an incense stick can reveal any leaks in or out. Can someone explain how the smell could get out of the stove if he is reading vacuum on the indicator?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 22, 2019)

Spacebus, remember there is a very strong flow blasting the lower corner of the door gasket.  That could easily make up for the overall static vacuum pressure I'm reading.  An incense stick could be a good idea I guess. Or some other gas dye. It's not just a big pressure tank under vaccum. It's a complex dynamic environment of swirling smoke and creosote. 

It's even worse today, don't know what's different.  Just seems to be releasing smoke while it's running.  Just kind of smells like regular smoke. I smelled it last night and this morning. Made sure to clean the door ledge and ashpan lip. Last time it did this the cat was partially clogged but I checked it a week or two ago and cleaned it.  Might be it for the season for this stove except to test a new door gasket.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 22, 2019)

Does your draft meter ever show a draft reversal? Does your stove ever back puff? There are only a few situations in which your stove can actually release smoke.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 22, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> there is a very strong flow blasting the lower corner of the door gasket.


Where would that be coming from, since the air wash is above the window?
When I cruise my stove, I don't think there is any air "blasting" anywhere in the box...the opening through which air can enter, at the lower right of the sliding plate in this pic, looks to be less than the size of a 1/4" drill bit.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 22, 2019)

It used backpuff or get pipe explosions with the initial 90 deg pipe setup and the air shut down way too far when we just got the stove. The pressure reverses only occasionally when the stove is completely cold.

So another tool @AlbergSteve @MissMac is to use some Snoop Leak Detector when the stove is cold or cooler (says temp rating is to 200°F).  It makes huge bubbles if there is a leak. If cold you could try blowing a hairdryer or wetdry vac into the airvent to give it a little pressure.  I think I will try it on some of the welds this weekend. I'm going to grab a little from my work.

@Woody Stover if there is a poor door gasket seal, it could be "pushing" some smoke out of one of the edges of the gasket.  The BK combustion inlet is all at the glass and basically puts a lot of pressure in the lower corner of the door


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## Woody Stover (Mar 22, 2019)

Corrected, air opening is at lower right corner of the plate in the pic.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 22, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> It's even worse today, don't know what's different. Just seems to be releasing smoke while it's running. Just kind of smells like regular smoke. I smelled it last night and this morning. Made sure to clean the door ledge and ashpan lip. Last time it did this the cat was partially clogged but I checked it a week or two ago and cleaned it. Might be it for the season for this stove except to test a new door gasket.


Have you ever tried looking for a smoke leak with a flashlight while the room is unlit? (total blackout)
Sometimes if you get yourself, and the light at just the right angle, at just the right time, a wisp of smoke will show up that you'd never see normally...just an idea.
Maybe this is a problem with multiple sources...some days its a creosote smell from somewhere on the stove, some days its a smoke smell from when the wind/weather is just right, the chimney exhaust rolls down the side of the house, and a little smell gets pulled back in the cracks/crevices of the house along with the makeup air?

We recently did an upgrade on the 600k BTU NG fired boiler at work and greatly increased the efficiency...the upgrades mean the exhaust temp dropped the better part of 150* F. Previously the flue gasses exited the chimney hot enough that we rarely seen condensation...but since then, a trail of "steam" is almost constant (at least during the winter) and it has been interesting to see how much of the time the exhaust rolls right down the back of the building, almost to the ground. If this was a wood or coal fired boiler, we would surely get some odor inside the building sometimes.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 23, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Alright, well BK is sending a Door Gasket Kit. They think that has fixed this problem before. Steve did you try that already? If I get it before the season ends I'll try that and I think that's the last thing I'm trying on this stove. Then I'm going to have to start looking for a replacement.


Yeah, new gasket mid season last year. They should also send shims to adjust the front casting out from the body of the stove because the gasket is quite a bit thicker. Let me know when you get the new gasket and I'll send some pics of my install - don't just cut it and butt it together.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 23, 2019)

Did that help at all Steve?

@brenndatomu Window exhaust has probably happened before but the creo smell is a very clear smell coming from the stove. Its not sometimes it's every time on a reduced burn. I've tried the flashlight a few times and couldn't find anything. 

Maybe some combination of the wind, warmer evening and loading spillage caused tons of smoke to get inside last night. It was not airing out after 30min. It almost seems to be emitting some regular smoke while running as well. I think I might wait for this gasket before relighting. It looks very soaked in creosote in some spots on the bottom. So tired of dealing with all this.


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## AlbergSteve (Mar 23, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> New Did that help at all Steve?



Nope, not for me but apparently it has for others.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Mar 26, 2019)

I lit the stove again for two more cold days. I just tested with a lighter and sure enough there is strong vacuum at the cat probe with a decent draft going. Certainly all signs are pointing to the gasket. BK is shipping one today. If I can't get rid of it with that, I might look at something like a Woodstock Absolute steel. A cat stove slightly smaller with side loading seems much better for smoke spillage and any type of creo leak issues. Would suck to lose the tstat though.

Especially hearing Steve's experience does not give me a lot of confidence in this new gasket.


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## Ashful (Mar 27, 2019)

There’s always the Princess, VCS.  They’ve sold a chit ton of Princesses over the last few decades, and I think I’ve only ever seen one smoke smell issue posting on that model, ever.  We’ve obviously seen more than a few on the Ashford 30 in the last two years, as I’m sure you’ve already seen.

Of course, nothing wrong with Woodstock, if you don’t see much value the long BK burn times or Thermostat.  They’d be near the top of my list, if I ever moved away from BK.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 27, 2019)

Does the thermostat work that well? My only experience is with an old VC Defiant with a cracked Fireback, so not really a great example of the technique. I'm weird and like being able to have total control over the stove, but that doesn't mean it's objectively better without the thermostat.


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## Ashful (Mar 27, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Does the thermostat work that well? My only experience is with an old VC Defiant with a cracked Fireback...


Yeah, I works pretty well.  I’ve never owned another thermostatic stove, but those who have claim BK’s is the only one that has worked as well as it does.  I set it for the output I want at the beginning of the burn, and then it gradually opens air as the fire wanes, late in the burn.

Perfectly flat output?  No.  But it is better than leaving the air set where it was, as would be the case on other stoves, un-attended.


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## Woody Stover (Mar 27, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> all signs are pointing to the gasket. BK is shipping one today. If I can't get rid of it with that, I might look at something like a Woodstock Absolute steel.


I can't speak to the AS but I've had the Keystone for more than 7 years, and never replaced any gaskets or adjusted the door latch, ash pan latch or bypass door tension. The stove runs fine but if I went through all that stuff, there'd undoubtedly be some degree of improvement...I guess I'll do that this summer.
Thinking more, I _did_ replace the window gaskets when I took the windows out to seal a front/left seam leak with the Ws furnace cement, which is great stuff BTW.


SpaceBus said:


> Does the thermostat work that well?


I think that in my case, the only time the thermo would really help would be at the end of the burn, to open up the air on the coals. Other than that, I just fit the stove's heat curve to outside temp cycles. So I load before I go to bed and the stove puts out its highest heat when the temps are dropping outside. Then in the morning I might put in more splits if I need more heat to get me to the relatively warmer afternoon, where the stove can coast. When it's cold out, I can burn down coals to make room in the box, while keeping output up by opening the air on the coals for a few hours.
Maybe with a bigger house, and a bigger firebox, and no one home to open the air a touch on the coals, the thermo would be more useful than what I can envision in my case. Room temp here stay from 69-72, so my stove in my situation holds steady-state fine without a thermo. As far as the long, super-low burn, I don't see that being of much benefit to me much either. In shoulder season, my stove can burn on a few coals buried in the ashes, and room temp still doesn't vary much since it's not cold outside. So the big BK features wouldn't appear to be of much use to me, that's why I've never considered buying one...especially in light of some of the other things I've read about them. My stove offers me the features that I deem more important...everyone's priorities are going to be different in that respect.


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## begreen (Mar 27, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Yeah, I works pretty well.  I’ve never owned another thermostatic stove, but those who have claim BK’s is the only one that has worked as well as it does.  I set it for the output I want at the beginning of the burn, and then it gradually opens air as the fire wanes, late in the burn.
> 
> Perfectly flat output?  No.  But it is better than leaving the air set where it was, as would be the case on other stoves, un-attended.


VC's thermostat worked well on our Resolute. Some cabinet heaters have thermostatic control. The Quad Adventure series works with a wall mounted thermostat for room temp control.


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## Highbeam (Mar 27, 2019)

begreen said:


> VC's thermostat worked well on our Resolute. Some cabinet heaters have thermostatic control. The Quad Adventure series works with a wall mounted thermostat for room temp control.



The reviews on that quad! Horrible. The wood furnace world has a few different methods for  thermostatic control. Surprisingly little shared technology with the stove world.


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## bholler (Mar 27, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> The reviews on that quad! Horrible. The wood furnace world has a few different methods for  thermostatic control. Surprisingly little shared technology with the stove world.


Lots of good reviews as well.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 15, 2019)

Hey again guys. Weather has been pretty mild and we've been on vacation. I removed my old door gasket and prepping for the new 1" one from BK. They gave me Dowsil 732 RTV sealant, only rated for 350°F?! Should I just use Rutland Black? Would about 3/4 of a 2.3oz tube be enough? We are certainly running out of days to test this new gasket! I already started my AC. A few days of 40 degree nights ahead though.

Thanks and enjoy the last days of burning.


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## moresnow (Apr 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Hey again guys. Weather has been pretty mild and we've been on vacation. I removed my old door gasket and prepping for the new 1" one from BK. They gave me Dowsil 732 RTV sealant, only rated for 350°F?! Should I just use Rutland Black? Would about 3/4 of a 2.3oz tube be enough? We are certainly running out of days to test this new gasket! I already started my AC. A few days of 40 degree nights ahead though.
> 
> Thanks and enjoy the last days of burning.



Definitely getting short on burning days here. 
With all the trouble you have had I believe I would confirm the provided sealant with BK before throwing another wrench in the gears No use  confusing the situation. Just ask? That sealant may be something they have concluded fits the bill. Dunno. Maybe ask on the BK thread as well. A handful of users have installed the new style gasket. They would know. Good luck. Should be interesting to hear your results.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 16, 2019)

Thanks, I'm asking BK the same questions. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions as well.  I'm obviously completely inexperienced at bonding stove gaskets! I'm especially wondering how much adhesive to apply. I would be inclined to put a large amount to make sure it is well coated underneath. I don't know how much would be needed.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Thanks, I'm asking BK the same questions. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions as well.  I'm obviously completely inexperienced at bonding stove gaskets! I'm especially wondering how much adhesive to apply. I would be inclined to put a large amount to make sure it is well coated underneath. I don't know how much would be needed.


You want a decent bead about 1/4" thick, but not so much that there is a lot of ooze.


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## Woody Stover (Apr 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> They gave me Dowsil 732 RTV sealant, only rated for 350°F?


The door frame isn't subjected to all that much heat, since it is shielded by the front of the firebox. I'm sure that what they gave you will work. On the Buck 91, I used the ~800* copper stuff from the auto parts store, for exhaust manifolds etc.


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## Highbeam (Apr 16, 2019)

begreen said:


> You want a decent bead about 1/4" thick, but not so much that there is a lot of ooze.



This. Be generous. I used more than a full auto parts store tube of copper RTV on my last BK door gasket job and had no ooze out. I believe the ashford door uses the same silly design of putting the nuts/bolts for the door glass under the door gasket so the RTV is doing more than just being an adhesive but is also filling in those necessary leaps of the gasket up and down from the nuts. 

Don't make the mistake of pushing the gasket into the RTV with your fingers any more than just barely enough to keep it in place. Let the door frame evenly bed the gasket. Otherwise you will contort the gasket around those nuts and studs.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 16, 2019)

My main question is if my 2oz of Rutland Cement would be enough to nicely coat the whole gasket? I don't want to run out and if this is the key to solving my 100 hours of stove troubleshooting I want to make sure it is perfect! The other issue is that if I order another tube I may miss these last few cold evenings left in the spring.

Manny from BK said that Rutland Cement would be fine (maybe even preferred).  My original gasket adhesive was very bare in some areas, doesn't look like much was applied or it disintegrated. The old gasket came off easily in one piece.

@Woody Stover You think the gasket is not subject to much heat?! The glass gets > 700°F I've seen.  I thought that was one of the hottest places of the stove.  The door frame would at least conduct as much heat as the stove top if not more. I could see the gasket insulating some but it won't stop the intense radiant heat coming off the hot wood a few inches away or the conduction through the stove body. Someone must have checked with their infrared thermometer...


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## rdust (Apr 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> My main question is if my 2oz of Rutland Cement would be enough to nicely coat the whole gasket? I don't want to run out and if this is the key to solving my 100 hours of stove debugging I want to make sure it is perfect! The other issue is that if I order another tube I may miss these last few cold evenings left in the spring.
> 
> Manny from BK said that Rutland Cement would be fine (maybe even preferred).  My original gasket adhesive was very bare in some areas, doesn't look like much was applied or it disintegrated. The old gasket came off easily in one piece.
> 
> @Woody Stover You think the gasket is not subject to much heat?! The glass gets > 700°F I've seen.  I thought that was one of the hottest places of the stove.  The door frame would at least conduct as much heat as the stove top if not more. I could see the gasket insulating some but it won't stop the intense radiant heat coming off the hot wood a few inches away or the conduction through the stove body. Someone must have checked with their infrared thermometer...




I wouldn't use the cement, I would use the RTV they supplied.  I've used RTV Black, Red and Cooper in the past on this stove and my previous stoves and never had an issue with any of them keeping the gasket stuck.  The cement makes a mess and isn't wasn't used from the factory.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 16, 2019)

RTV black, red and Copper all appear to have higher temp ratings (500, 650 and 700°F). This Dowsil RTV is only rated to 350°F continuous. I'm not sure this is necessarily the exact same product they use for original assembly. This is just what is supplied in their "re-gasket" kit.


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## Woody Stover (Apr 16, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> You think the gasket is not subject to much heat?! The glass gets > 700°F I've seen.  I thought that was one of the hottest places of the stove.  The door frame would at least conduct as much heat as the stove top if not more. I could see the gasket insulating some but it won't stop the intense radiant heat coming off the hot wood a few inches away or the conduction through the stove body. Someone must have checked with their infrared thermometer...


That 700 may have been from shooting through the glass and into the coal bed. The top around the cat may go to 600+ but the front of the stove isn't nearly that hot. And it looks like there may be a convective air space between the steel box and the cast front, I'm not sure. In any case, yes, the door frame can't get much from conduction since it can't transmit through the gasket.


rdust said:


> I wouldn't use the cement, I would use the RTV they supplied.  I've used RTV Black, Red and Cooper in the past on this stove and my previous stoves and never had an issue with any of them keeping the gasket stuck.


And like Highbeam said, the silicone will fill the gaps between the glass retainer screws and the gasket. Not sure the runny Rutland can do that. Pretty sure they sent you the stuff you need...


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 17, 2019)

Runny Rutland? Rutland Black is like thick toothpaste, not sure if you've used it.  I ordered a caulking tube size to make sure I have enough. Looks like Amazon already dropped it on my doorstep. BK said that was good idea in this instance.  Rutland Black is specifically designed for stove gaskets so I don't think it would be a improper application...

Also, the front door does have conduction through the hinges.  I know that it gets hot in that area. If I leave wood chips in the little ledges under the door they will smolder. That must be over 400°F.  I thought I saw someone on hearth.com showed some infrared measurements around the stove and the front door and they were close to stove top temps?


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2019)

Rutland makes a lot of products. For a stove gasket I would use their black silicone. Is this what you have?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000H5Y6CQ/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## Woody Stover (Apr 17, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Runny Rutland? Rutland Black is like toothpaste, not sure if you've used it...I thought I saw someone on hearth.com showed some infrared measurements around the stove and the front door and they were close to stove top temps?





begreen said:


> Rutland makes a lot of products. For a stove gasket I would use their black silicone. Is this what you have?


This is the stuff I'm talking about, but silicone would be the ticket.


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## Woody Stover (Apr 17, 2019)

I shot the door frame on the Buck 91 but can't remember what it was. It was under 400 though. That's not to say that _your_ door frame wouldn't get hotter...


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> This is the stuff I'm talking about, but silicone would be the ticket.
> View attachment 243407


After using silicone I really prefer that. So do many stove mfgs these days.


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## Woody Stover (Apr 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> After using silicone I really prefer that. So do many stove mfgs these days.


Even with the air open, burning down coals, the radiation blasting the cast iron side-load door of the Keystone can't get it to 500.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 17, 2019)

OK thanks for checking Woody. One of the 500°F Silicones would probably be fine, I'm just a little skeptical of the 350°F Dowsil they gave me.  I bought Rutland Black Stove & Gasket Cement, not the Silicone. It has specific instructions for applying it to a stove door gasket.  If you guys really think I need the Silicone I can order one instead, but I'd prefer to use this Hi-Temp Cement that I am positive can withstand the temperatures.

This is the one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000V4LTXC/?tag=hearthamazon-20

Also, IR Thermometers do not "see through" glass. So that is the actual surface temp of the glass.  I would expect they get above 700°F. I would assume the stove is designed that way to radiate a lot of heat through the glass with shielded sides to keep the clearances under control.

https://www.thermoworks.com/infrared_thermometry101_limitations_of_infrared

Do not "see through" glass, liquids or other transparent surfaces - even though visible light (like a laser) passes through them (i.e. if you point an IR gun at a window, you'll be measuring the temperature of the window pane, not the outside temp)


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## begreen (Apr 17, 2019)

Black, red (not blue) or copper RTV will stand the temps. What I like about silicone is its ability to bond well and stay pliant enough to maintain that bond over the many heating and cooling cycles. The Rutland adhesive has not bonded that well over time for me sometimes. I also think that silicone will do a better job sealing around those pesky glass retaining nuts that Highbeam mentioned.


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## rdust (Apr 17, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Rutland Black is specifically designed for stove gaskets so I don't think it would be a improper application...



My issue with the Rutland is it's a cement, it doesn't remain flexible like the RTV silicone gasket.  To me this will limit the gaskets ability to remain "pliable".  If the BK thought a gasket cement was better I assume they'd be using it from the factory.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 17, 2019)

Or maybe if they use cement or higher temp silicone they won't have as many users with smelly Ashfords. There is obviously a flaw somewhere in their build process or design that is allowing creosote odor to leak out on a percentage of their new stoves. I've spoken to quite a few people on here with the same problem.

Really my biggest goal is to seal up this gasket and run it to see if that seals away this odor, otherwise I'm going to have to get a new stove. If I need a new gasket at the end of next year with no other problems I'll be plenty happy to replace the gasket one more time with high temp RTV. I'm not too concerned a heavy load of cement is not going to seal around the bolts when properly prepped and installed.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 22, 2019)

I'm about to light it sometime this week with the new 1" gasket. I checked with BK and do not need shims on mine for some reason. A good sign though is that it was smelling a bit when the chimney was backdrafting when the stove was off. It was almost every day. Figured it was just some leakage out the stove pipe. Now with the new gasket it does not smell at all? I'm wondering if the air was blowing nasty gasket smell through the gasket because of a poor seal?  

We'll see. I don't want to get my hopes up too much.


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## mar13 (Apr 22, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> A good sign though is that it was smelling a bit when the chimney was backdrafting when the stove was off. It was almost every day.



Hopefully you've got it solved.  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.  As an amateur, however, I can't help to wonder if a daily back draft when the stove is off suggests that something about your home is handicapping your stove's draft?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 22, 2019)

I can't imagine there is a problem with draft if I'm running at 0.08-0.12"WC while it's burning.

It is in the 50s and I relit the stove. Certainly the cement is making some smell and it's difficult to tell if the creo smell is gone completely. That said, I don't smell any creo so far. I ran it with flames out for about 45min, tstat set at 75%. Problem is that when the flames restarted up they started some burst cycles which puffed smoke out the pipes. Forgot about that since I always run it with a flame.
I left the window cracked so I don't imagine its a make-up air issue.

I'll run it a few more times to see if it's making the dreaded creo smell. Not sure what to think about the blasting.


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## Hogwildz (Apr 23, 2019)

I just resecured my gasket after discovering the factory cement was failing. Used Silicone window & door, works like a champ.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2019)

Based on the description if there are puffbacks with the air 75% open then the draft doesn't seem sufficient.  Draft at 50° is going to be weaker than at 35°.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 23, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I can't imagine there is a problem with draft if I'm running at 0.08-0.12"WC while it's burning.
> 
> It is in the 50s and I relit the stove. Certainly the cement is making some smell and it's difficult to tell if the creo smell is gone completely. That said, I don't smell any creo so far. I ran it with flames out for about 45min, tstat set at 75%. Problem is that when the flames restarted up they started some burst cycles which puffed smoke out the pipes. Forgot about that since I always run it with a flame.
> I left the window cracked so I don't imagine its a make-up air issue.
> ...



Did you measure the draft before you started?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 23, 2019)

begreen said:


> Based on the description if there are puffbacks with the air 75% open then the draft doesn't seem sufficient.  Draft at 50° is going to be weaker than at 35°.


I'm not sure if this is considered "stove backpuffing". It has a nice flow through it but when the gas starts relighting after flameless mode it starts exploding the whole chamber. Naturally some of that smoke puffs out the stove pipe. I'm getting as high as 0.15" WC draft in the 30's so if I go any higher I'll be triple the designed spec.  It was really difficult keeping the stove below 350°F STT with any size-able load due to the high draft.  Can't imagine how bad this problem would be with a system running at 0.06"WC specified in the manual.

Given this was in the upper 50's out.  I'm not going to rerun it until it's in the 40's for the next few burns.

@SpaceBus I can hook up the manometer again.  I measured it over several weeks and it was running maybe 0.05" WC at the worst conditions and probably peaked at 0.15" or 0.16" WC on HIGH.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2019)

That chuffing is a mild form of backpuffing.


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## Highbeam (Apr 23, 2019)

Warm ambient temperatures are not as big a deal as you may think. We routinely burn in the 60s with a 12' chimney. Works the same way as when it's 10 degrees. It's way more of a problem when the clothes dryer is running. 

Stop measuring stove top temperatures. The cat underneath the stove top can be 1500 degrees whether the stove is on high or on low.


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## lsucet (Apr 23, 2019)

I have been seeing during the days temperatures on low 80s with nights of high 30s to low 40s. On a 19' chimney that is the one I use during shoulder seasons I have no problems with the dial set to the low setting that works for me. Never stall on me.


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## Ashful (Apr 23, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Warm ambient temperatures are not as big a deal as you may think. We routinely burn in the 60s with a 12' chimney. Works the same way as when it's 10 degrees. It's way more of a problem when the clothes dryer is running.


A 20dF change in outside temp makes very little difference when your chimney is running 500dF, but it can play hell when you’re trying to start a cold stove.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2019)

Yes, even 15º can make a difference. I see a notable change when cold starting if it's 40º vs 55º with a straight up, interior 20' flue system.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 23, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Warm ambient temperatures are not as big a deal as you may think. We routinely burn in the 60s with a 12' chimney. Works the same way as when it's 10 degrees. It's way more of a problem when the clothes dryer is running.
> 
> Stop measuring stove top temperatures. The cat underneath the stove top can be 1500 degrees whether the stove is on high or on low.


I'm just trying to give you an idea of the stove heat output and temperature.  What do you prefer to use? Blaze King catalyst probe measurement range, stove top temp, stove side temp, flue temp, tstat setting?

This flashback or whatever the term is was not during startup. It started up and drafted great with no smoke spillage. It was about 2 hours in after the stove had reached temp, tstat reduced air to no flame for about 30 min then puffing occurred when tstat increased air as the flames were re-igniting.  Remember that I have a wall exit but about a 23ft chimney far over BKs recommended height and draft.


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## Highbeam (Apr 23, 2019)

Mine does those flashbacks or whatever too. Unlike most stoves, these cat stoves are designed to often run with no flames so it is likely that the swing in the thermostat setting will put the firebox in and out of active flame combustion. Every time the smoldering fuel regains flames there will be a flashback of some magnitude. At least that’s what I see through the stained glass!

To measure stove temps you can watch the room temperature climb. Flue temperatures are a pretty decent indicator of output level. You’ll end up using just the thermostat setting when  you get used to the stove.


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## begreen (Apr 24, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Mine does those flashbacks or whatever too


Are the puffbacks strong enough that they push smoke out of the pipe joints?


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## Ashful (Apr 24, 2019)

On my Jotuls, the backpuffs used to push smoke out the air inlets.  It only occurred on my shorter chimney,  ever the taller chimney, I was running two of the same stove.


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## Highbeam (Apr 24, 2019)

begreen said:


> Are the puffbacks strong enough that they push smoke out of the pipe joints?



No, my install is good. A tight door gasket, tight outside air connection. All vertical flue system with tight fitting components and remember, this may be important, there is no smoke in my flue but just clear “exhaust”. These flashes happen when everything is hot and clean.

We can often hear the wuff and then hear the tick tick tick of the flue heating up. But mostly it’s the flash that you notice. 

Totally different than a noncat that by design has lots of flames during these early stages of the burn. First few hours.


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## Woody Stover (Apr 24, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Stop measuring stove top temperatures.


Whachoo talkin' 'bout, Willis? We're stove nerds, we're not gonna stop measuring _anything! _


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## Highbeam (Apr 24, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Whachoo talkin' 'bout, Willis? We're stove nerds, we're not gonna stop measuring _anything! _



I tried measuring them too. Just don’t try to run your stove (cat bk) by the info.


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## lsucet (Apr 25, 2019)

I took away the STT from each one long time ago.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 26, 2019)

Ok, I think I just didn't warm up the stove enough and loaded the small load weird. I let it warm up a good 45min before touching the tstat tonight. It has gone to no flame...sort of. There are tons of secondaries burning right at the red hot cat. Pretty cool to watch. So no weird flashback going on at all. 

I do not smell any creo smell exiting around the collar area, but there is a good amount of some kind of curing smell from the initial warm up.  Lets see how it does on the 3rd burn. There should be a chance this weekend and next week. Please please have this smell go away soon and run clean for good!


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## lsucet (Apr 26, 2019)

When I wish and hope for the gasket to be the cure of the problem, I still seeing an issue with the collar connection if it still puffing smoke thru there when flashback. Just saying.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 26, 2019)

Hey lsucet. No flashback at all last night within the 2hrs I was awake.  The flame kept burning up in the cat so there was no gas buildup and much better draft.  Last time I was worried about running the gasket too hot right away and set it down to 75% within 15min or so of startup. I also split the wood up into two piles and so it couldn't keep going as well.  This time I bundled it all together on the handle side.

It ran great as well. I came down this morning and it had just gone inactive. It ran about 7hrs from cold with about 20lbs of ash. Still lots of smell of some kind.  I think it smells like cement, maybe it's the new gasket material? Not really sure. No creo smell in the morning though and it is completely unrelated to the burn rate. Strangely at 75% or 4:30 tstat position it seems to be on a relatively low setting. Maybe the old gasket was sucking in a lot of extra air. Crossing my fingers and will light another one tonight or Saturday morning.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 27, 2019)

I just lit a 3rd load this morning.  The big question: should the gasket or Rutland cement produce much curing smell? And for how long?

This newer smell is still here. I'm pretty sure it is some type of smoke. Not like campfire smoke but some type of more pungent smell. Perhaps burnt creosote?  Maybe a little plasticy smell?  There was a little bit of this before with the old gasket. I let it warm up nicely for about 1hr and then slowly lowered the tstat to about 75%/4:30 and later 65%/3:30.  No flashback, good smooth relight. During the flameless cycle there was a very faint hint of creo smell (that nasty "char" smell again!) and less of the smoke smell.  Certainly not enough to build up.  I'm wondering if it will start picking up as the gasket breaks in more. 

I wouldn't say this smoke fills the house but it is noticeable with the windows cracked and would be pretty obvious with the windows closed. It also is emitting around the collar as normal, presumably riding up the stove top.  I can smell it if I waft around the gasket.  

I can see the latch side gasket is a little loose now.  It might be failing the dollar test.  So I just tightened the tensioner once to see if that reduces this smoke, otherwise BK better do something major to help us out.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 28, 2019)

I cranked the tensioner until the door barely closes. Still lots of plastic/burning smell this morning during startup.  Even right now with a few logs just thrown on I'm smelling it.  Anytime there is a strong flame and draft. 
I'm also still getting creo/char smell when the flame goes out.  It is much less than before but plenty of it. Luckily when there was a light flame that creo vapor seems to go away, so the last 4 hours were somewhat clean from this half load.  I closed the windows and there was a very faint plasticy burning smell upstairs the last 4 hours.

What do you think this plastic burning smell is??


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## lsucet (Apr 28, 2019)

Did you use silicone? Possibly is it and will go away.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 28, 2019)

Are you guys sensitive to smells in general?


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## SpaceBus (Apr 28, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Are you guys sensitive to smells in general?


My wife is. The smallest wisp of smoke could drift out of the door on a cold start and she can smell it within five minutes up stairs.


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## Sawset (Apr 28, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> My wife is. The smallest wisp of smoke could drift out of the door on a cold start and she can smell it within five minutes up stairs.


Same here. Very much the same response. Generally, no smoke smells in the house here.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 28, 2019)

No sillicone, I used Rutland black cement specifically because I thought it would not burn or emit curing chemicals. Are we sensitive to "smells"? Maybe slightly more than average. Pet smells, dirty shoes, rotting food, etc. we'll get over it. Are we sensitive to constant smoke and chemicals in the house all winter long that will give us cancer in 10 years? F**k yes.  We don't want that in our house. We have a 1 and 3 yr old. Our windows have been cracked almost all winter because of this damn stove.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 28, 2019)

I'm pretty sure several folks on here suggested the silicone or RTV rather than the cement. Perhaps this is the cause of the new plastic smell.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 28, 2019)

Yes, you guys had all started heavily commented on the RTV after I had already installed it with Rutland Black cement. It could be making a smell but I can't imagine this is worse than RTV. The cement is moisture curing not chemical curing. Anyone use Rutland black cement and know if it is supposed to stink like this?

Regardless though, I did get what I need and found creo smell is still there, not fixed with a thick, extra dense gasket.

Woodstock Progress and the side loading door is looking really good right about now.


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## Mnpellet (Apr 28, 2019)

It would be interesting to test this stove on a different chimney. Any chance dealer could test on a chimney and see if it’s the stove or your chimney configuration?  Just thinking if you tried it on a chimney configuration that was recommended by the manufacturer and it still gave off an odor you could then conclude it really is just this stove.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 28, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes, you guys had all started heavily commented on the RTV after I had already installed it with Rutland Black cement. It could be making a smell but I can't imagine this is worse than RTV. The cement is moisture curing not chemical curing. Anyone use Rutland black cement and know if it is supposed to stink like this?
> 
> Regardless though, I did get what I need and found creo smell is still there, not fixed with a thick, extra dense gasket.
> 
> Woodstock Progress and the side loading door is looking really good right about now.



My wife would have heaved it out of the door herself by this point, so I commend your family. Perhaps it's time for angry calls to BK?


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 28, 2019)

Yes. I am calling BK tomorrow. They are plenty tired of hearing from me.

@Mnpellet there are at least 10 other people on Hearth.com with the AF30.2 that have this exact creo vapor issue. Just msging with one guy who is in process of extraditing his 2018 AF30.2 as we speak.

What a huge disappointment. This stove has so much going for it. Not sure what my options and actions will be next. I might try to burn a few last fires with the windows open and see if this plastic smell goes away while the kids are out of the house. Even with the stove cool it still reeks of that smell if you get close.


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## Highbeam (Apr 29, 2019)

brenndatomu said:


> Are you guys sensitive to smells in general?



Some guys are sensitive and some ashfords seem to emit an offensive odor. Sometimes you get really unlucky and both of these things happen at the same time. This looks to be one of those times.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 29, 2019)

Yes, ours had been quite bad with the creosote vapors. It would smell like someone lit a joint up in our hallway upstairs after an hour of low burn. Unless our 3yr old is getting into a bad crowd at pre-school it's probably time to do something about the stove .
I think most people would be bothered by the exhaust we are getting in the house.
It smells again this morning of the plastic smell right after the cat is engaged. Either that is causing more smoke leakage pressure thru the gasket or it is heating up the Rutland cement.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 29, 2019)

I don't blame you for being upset. I'm allergic to smoke, dander, dust, the south, some evergreens, and many other things, as is my wife, so this wouldn't fly in my house either. If we get any smell, it's because we messed up, not the stove.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 29, 2019)

I talked to Chris and Francisco at BK. They said they would replace the stove with another BK stove but any refund would ultimately be up to the dealer. I still have to lug this thing to CT about 60mi away and go get a new stove in here. I will call the dealer tomorrow and see what the options are... This has been such a disaster. I don't know why I still want to burn wood. I must be crazy.

Apparently there has been 27 smoke warranty claims with the Ashford and "about one" of each other model.  And that is out of "thousands and thousands of stoves per year".  

We burned another load today and it might be this Ashford's last.  There was no smell initially but as soon as the cat was engaged it filled the house again with whatever this is.  Good chance it's the 5oz of Rutland black, some chance this is just smoke blasting through the gasket.  I haven't seen anyone post about Rutland making smell, in fact I've heard mostly the opposite.


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## lsucet (Apr 29, 2019)

The first thing that should be done when having an issue is to use manufacturers recommendation and products that they can help with diagnosis cause that is what they use and there are many using it without issues.
I read before that once a while when you get backflashes smoke puff out of the flue collar connection?
That is more than enough to have Creo smell coming through there into the room if the connection is not sealing like it should.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (Apr 29, 2019)

@lsucet
My main issues have nothing to do with backflashes. That happened once because I was trying to run the stove with too little warm up on the 1st new gasket burn when it was 60°F outside.

I'm running with the draft above 0.08" on a medium flameless burn and creosote vapor starts emitting out the gasket, up the stove top and out around the collar. Did this with 4 diff chimney configs I tried. Apparently there may be 27 people with the same Ashford issue. BK says they have no idea and can't replicate it when the stove is switched to a different chimney.

Regarding the chimney I replaced the collar with a straight tight dsp pipe connection, even sealing all the crevices with cement. As others report, if you remove the top it is obvious the smell comes out the gasket.


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## Woody Stover (Apr 30, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> I don't know why I still want to burn wood. I must be crazy.


You're not nutty if you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.


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## rdust (May 1, 2019)

I'd still like to see a field rep make a visit to all the homes who continue to have these troubles.


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## moresnow (May 1, 2019)

Glad you are getting some positive response from the company. If a replacement BK becomes the best option you may consider the Princess for its reliable track record!


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (May 1, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> Yes. I am calling BK tomorrow. They are plenty tired of hearing from me.
> 
> @Mnpellet there are at least 10 other people on Hearth.com with the AF30.2 that have this exact creo vapor issue. Just msging with one guy who is in process of extraditing his 2018 AF30.2 as we speak.
> 
> What a huge disappointment. This stove has so much going for it. Not sure what my options and actions will be next. I might try to burn a few last fires with the windows open and see if this plastic smell goes away while the kids are out of the house. Even with the stove cool it still reeks of that smell if you get close.


I recommend electric heat, maybe natural gas.  Sell the stove, and the whatever wood you have left.  I'm not being facetious.  Just doesn't seem like it's in the cards for you.  Maybe give it another go after the kids have moved out and perhaps you've moved to another house.  I'd have given up myself about 400 posts ago.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (May 1, 2019)

@ED 3000 way to be supportive . We have natural gas. It's not about that. We would have wasted about $8,000 on install costs and depreciation of the stove. Plus I would have to go patch and repaint the wall.  There's going to be a new stove there.

Are trying to say that we should just put up with constant smoke in the house, that's what you are getting at? It's not for us?


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## edyit (May 2, 2019)

Maybe try a stove besides the BK? They do get a lot of praise on here, but like everything else on this planet nothing is infallible. Should be able to get a decent non cat stove for what you can sell the BK for. That would recoup some of the cost. I dunno, just throwing out ideas, I know something that stinks every time we tried to use it for heat would have been tossed and replaced here a long time ago. You're a much more patient individual than I am.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (May 2, 2019)

@edyit  Certainly I would consider a non-cat.  Something like a Englander 30NC would not work with our house layout though and the inconsistent heat output could make it unusable for us.  On the one hand, we did manage _okay_ with 6-8hr burn times due to our Ashford issues, but a 10-12hr burn time adds a huge amount of convenience (only two loads per day). Depending on what happens with the BK return, I've been really eyeing the Woodstock Progress Hybrid if there is someway to make that happen. From what I can tell it has a really nice wide range of heat output, plenty great burn times and the side loading would remove risk of door gasket leakage like the BK design.


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## bholler (May 2, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @edyit  Certainly I would consider a non-cat.  Something like a Englander 30NC would not work with our house layout though and the inconsistent heat output could make it unusable for us.  On the one hand, we did manage _okay_ with 6-8hr burn times due to our Ashford issues, but a 10-12hr burn time adds a huge amount of convenience (only two loads per day). Depending on what happens with the BK return, I've been really eyeing the Woodstock Progress Hybrid if there is someway to make that happen. From what I can tell it has a really nice wide range of heat output, plenty great burn times and the side loading would remove risk of door gasket leakage like the BK design.


There is still a gasket on that side door also.  Any time you are burning low and slow like with cats there is going to be more risk of smell.  I know with the princess I used this year even though I didn't burn low all that much there was more smell than with any of the non cats I have used.  It wasn't bad at all but it was there.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (May 2, 2019)

@bholler That's what I've been trying to understand. Do all stoves release smoke vapor running at lower burn rates? It seems like some company must have figured out a solution by now.  A lot of people say there is zero smell coming from their BK stoves that are running at especially low burn rates. 

All glass must have a gasket, though I more mean that a permanent gaskets vs a door gasket may have an advantage.


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## Highbeam (May 2, 2019)

All loading doors have door gaskets and all glass has seals. The side door on the ph could leak too. 

There are a handful of stoves on the market that can reliably give you 12 hours of actual burn time reliably. Woodstock makes a few of them and in all the years I’ve been here I’ve never read if a smoke smell problem from the Woodstocks. I would prefer the IS model to the ph though.


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## rdust (May 2, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> All loading doors have door gaskets and all glass has seals. The side door on the ph could leak too.
> 
> There are a handful of stoves on the market that can reliably give you 12 hours of actual burn time reliably. Woodstock makes a few of them and in all the years I’ve been here I’ve never read if a smoke smell problem from the Woodstocks. I would prefer the IS model to the ph though.



In the beginning the Progress DID have smoke smell issues on the door side, they responded quickly and were able to come up with a gasket kit that resolved the issue for the users.


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## SpaceBus (May 2, 2019)

We don't get smell from our stove unless I do something wrong or otherwise make a mistake. I know our setup is different, but I wouldn't tolerate any smoke smell from any stove. Our old smoke dragon was in rough shape to begin with, but we drew the line when it filled the house with smoke on a windy night. This also means I don't trust any thermostatically controlled stove. I know folks love them and it is more convenient, but I like having complete control. My truck is also six speed and my wife's car is a manual. All of our vehicles, with the exception of a Nissan Titan, have been manual. Perhaps you could try a "manual" Stove. 

Edit


If you get a lot of wind, that might be contributing to your smell. The old smoke dragon always had the faintest wiff of that sweet smokey smell when I came in the house, but it would quickly clear. We used that stove for like, three weeks. Many folks along the Maine coast report similar issues with stoves like ours that were in good shape. To me, thermostatically controlled stoves don't work in windy climates.


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## SpaceBus (May 2, 2019)

Come to think of it, our plumber keeps an old VC Vigilant burning at the shop in the winter and it has that same smell and feel when you walk in, but much less. The wind is even worse when you get closer to river where the plumber is. The folks around here with Tstat stoves run them hot to avoid smoke issues. We didn't have this option because our Defiant some damage from previous occupants of our home.


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## ValleyCottageSplitter (May 2, 2019)

@Highbeam Yes, just that there may be an advantage that the air wash is not blowing on the door gasket of a side loading door.  That's what some people are hypothesizing about the Ashford. Like Spacebus mentions, one problem with the auto thermostat is that the air is on full blast for a lot of the first 30min and way overshoots the temp you want. Therefore it has to shut down the air hard. That's where is smoking for me. A manual stove you may warm up for 15 min after a reload and you can immediately turn it down _before_ it gets up to steady state temp.


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## SpaceBus (May 2, 2019)

ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> @Highbeam Yes, just that there may be an advantage that the air wash is not blowing on the door gasket of a side loading door.  That's what some people are hypothesizing about the Ashford. Like Spacebus mentions, one problem with the auto thermostat is that the air is on full blast for a lot of the first 30min and way overshoots the temp you want. Therefore it has to shut down the air hard. That's where is smoking for me. A manual stove you may warm up for 15 min after a reload and you can immediately turn it down _before_ it gets up to steady state temp.



Yeah, once the flue is hot and I see the smoke start to burn I start cutting back. When the flame starts to weaken, increase the air a bit, and then continue turning down until the flame is settled and the draft is 15% or less open. Stove top temps might peak above 700 for my stove, but it's a short peak and only right where the exhaust passes by the baffle. I don't even pay attention to stove top and just hit the single wall with my IR gun to make sure it gets up to temp. My flue also runs up my house and is well insulated despite being oversized. Pretty much all of, if any, creosote in my setup forms in the top chamber of my stove. My flue stays pretty clean if I get everything up to temp at the start of the burn.

I'm running the stove the same way now, but with smaller loads than I did in winter. It's annoying to have to light it all the time, but burns are short and my house doesn't overheat. Right now I'm using about 16 lbs a day with two small 8 lb fires with temps on the 50's day and mid 30's night. My stove is too small for your needs, but I think the PH will be awesome. I wish I could have it in my house, but it's too big.


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## Woody Stover (May 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> There is still a gasket on that side door also.  Any time you are burning low and slow like with cats there is going to be more risk of smell.





Highbeam said:


> in all the years I’ve been here I’ve never read if a smoke smell problem from the Woodstocks. I would prefer the IS model to the ph though.


Never smelled anything with the Keystone or Fireview.


SpaceBus said:


> I don't trust any thermostatically controlled stove. I know folks love them and it is more convenient, but I like having complete control.


Ditto, I like having manual control. One of us is usually around to open up the air on the coals and get more heat, if it's really cold out. In average outside temps, with cat stoves I've run, room temp doesn't vary more that a couple degrees over the entire burn. Manual control was part of the reason I went with the old version of the T5 without the EBT2. I'm not convinced I made the right choice, however. Of course, I could tweak the old style T5 to totally manually control the secondary, but I'm obviously not going to do that to my SIL's stove. If the stove were mine, maybe I could come up with a way to have the secondary operate in stock mode, yet override it if I wanted to.
OTOH, if we were gone for long work days, I think a thermostat would be good for automatically opening the air on the coal bed at the end of the burn.


ValleyCottageSplitter said:


> there may be an advantage that the air wash is not blowing on the door gasket of a side loading door.


The T5 has a big front door. The door gasket seals flat against the front wall of the box, as you can see in the first load pic in my thread. The Buck 91 did the same, with a big front door. I think that might provide a better seal than a knife-edge...or I could be full of crap again.  Never any smoke smell with either of those stoves, and I was running the T5 when it was 60* outside. However, the stove draws unbelievably, and I could still open the door with no smoke roll-out.


SpaceBus said:


> It's annoying to have to light it all the time, but burns are short and my house doesn't overheat.


I got better at starting new loads with a minimum of hassle, using good kindling and a SuperCedar chunk or two. Weather you start a new load with kindling or you do it off coals, you still have to monitor the stove until it gets up to temp and you cut the air and/or close the bypass. But yeah, the small firebox you have is going to require more re-starts.


Highbeam said:


> I would prefer the IS model to the ph though.


Ditto. The welded-seam steel box appeals to me, but soapstone sure looks nice...


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## bholler (May 2, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Never smelled anything with the Keystone or Fireview.
> Ditto, I like having manual control. One of us is usually around to open up the air on the coals and get more heat, if it's really cold out. In average outside temps, with cat stoves I've run, room temp doesn't vary more that a couple degrees over the entire burn. Manual control was part of the reason I went with the old version of the T5 without the EBT2. I'm not convinced I made the right choice, however. Of course, I could tweak the old style T5 to totally manually control the secondary, but I'm obviously not going to do that to my SIL's stove. If the stove were mine, maybe I could come up with a way to have the secondary operate in stock mode, yet override it if I wanted to.
> OTOH, if we were gone for long work days, I think a thermostat would be good for automatically opening the air on the coal bed at the end of the burn.
> The T5 has a big front door. The door gasket seals flat against the front wall of the box, as you can see in the first load pic in my thread. The Buck 91 did the same, with a big front door. I think that might provide a better seal than a knife-edge...or I could be full of crap again.  Never any smoke smell with either of those stoves, and I was running the T5 when it was 60* outside. However, the stove draws unbelievably, and I could still open the door with no smoke roll-out.
> ...


One of the keystone's we works on smells horrible.


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## rdust (May 2, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Ditto. The welded-seam steel box appeals to me, but soapstone sure looks nice...



The Progress is a steel box with a soapstone skin.


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## Woody Stover (May 2, 2019)

rdust said:


> The Progress is a steel box with a soapstone skin.


Oh yeah, I spaced that out...again.  In that case the PH would be in play for me and I'd compare the constructions of the two hybrid systems, burn times etc. I'd prefer to look at the soapstone, of course.


bholler said:


> One of the keystone's we works on smells horrible.


When it's burning? I've sometimes gotten a faint whiff of smoke right over the stove this year but I'm pretty sure I just need to replace the flue exit cover plate gasket (rear-vent setup.) It's not coming from the door. Could you tell where it was coming from on the Keystone you see?
I haven't yet replaced a gasket on this stove, except the glass when I took it out for access to seal a seam leak..I really need to get them all this summer.


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## bholler (May 2, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Oh yeah, I spaced that out...again.  In that case the PH would be in play for me and I'd compare the constructions of the two hybrid systems, burn times etc. I'd prefer to look at the soapstone, of course.
> When it's burning? I've sometimes gotten a faint whiff of smoke right over the stove this year but I'm pretty sure I just need to replace the flue exit cover plate gasket (rear-vent setup.) It's not coming from the door. Could you tell where it was coming from on the Keystone you see?
> I haven't yet replaced a gasket on this stove, except the glass when I took it out for access to seal a seam leak..I really need to get them all this summer.


It is the entire house that smells from regular smoke spillage.  I almost never smell it from modern noncats but I see it much more commonly from cat stoves.  Granted most of the cats are Vermont castings dutchwests some Alaska's and some bucks.  Only a few Woodstock's and bks.


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## Woody Stover (May 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> It is the entire house that smells from regular smoke spillage.


That sounds like a venting problem; The Keystone breathes very well. Or they don't know they have to open the bypass.  I can run it when it's pushing 60 outside with no smoke spillage, rear-vented.


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## bholler (May 2, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> That sounds like a venting problem; The Keystone breathes very well. Or they don't know they have to open the bypass.  I can run it when it's pushing 60 outside with no smoke spillage, rear-vented.


The vent is good I would guess it is operator error in that case.  But the fact is when you have the firebox full of smoke that is then burnt by the cat there is more potential for that smoke to escape into the room than when the smoke is burnt up in the box.  

That doesn't by any means say that a cat stove will smell.  Or that a non cat won't.  Just what I have seen in my experience.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Jun 29, 2019)

This entire thread, all 566 posts, is superb marketing _against_ cat technology and BK stoves.  Just so everyone who is participating knows...


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## SpaceBus (Jun 29, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> This entire thread, all 566 posts, is superb marketing _against_ cat technology and BK stoves.  Just so everyone who is participating knows...


Ha, I read several pages of posts on this thread when I was stove shopping. I agree with you entirely!


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## jetsam (Jun 29, 2019)

ED 3000 said:


> This entire thread, all 566 posts, is superb marketing _against_ cat technology and BK stoves.  Just so everyone who is participating knows...



Only if the reader hasn't tried both.


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## Woody Stover (Jun 30, 2019)

jetsam said:


> Only if the reader hasn't tried both.


Yeah, jury is still out on weather the non-cat I got my SIL is going send a buttload of heat up the flue and eat through wood like nobody's bizness...


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