# Portage and Main and general questions



## Jayf19 (Jan 23, 2014)

Apologize in advance as this post might be a little long and boring. I figured I might throw in the whole story, rather than asking questions here and there; the bigger picture is always better after all.  


I’m currently looking to change my whole heating system (from electrical space heaters with an awkwardly placed free standing wood stove) to either a hydronic furnace powered by a gasifier (which means I would need to retrofit ductwork in the house), or radiant flooring for the first floor with hydronic radiators in the basement and second floor. I’m in the process of making a detailed heat load calculation of my 1,600 square feet 2-story home.  This portion of the design has yet to be discussed with the local installer as to what would be less costly and more appropriate for my house.


Although I have not separated the electricity consumed for things other than heating, I have the data for a -25 day (which is still -7 degrees short from design temperature), it appears that I used up 215.7822 kWh, or roughly 350,000 BTU on a 24 hour period.


Regarding the gasifier, the only local dealer in my community carries Portage & Main boilers.  Although I am not too fond about an outdoor wood boiler, I am considering making a 20*10 heated outbuilding with the Economizer IDM 100 (there only indoors gasifier, with a maximum rated output ranging from 90,000 BTU to 140,000 BTU – depending on what web site you are looking at) with enough space to install 2-3 thermal tanks of 400 gallons each (questions regarding this approach follows).



 My first issue: according to P&M’s FAQs :


 “Our gasifiers and boilers are specifically designed not to require additional water.  Therefore, there is no need to have an additional storage tank.  With the exception of commercial applications such as greenhouses where most of the heat is required at night, having a large storage tank of 2000 to 10000 gallons is not necessary.”


From what I have read on here, -ANY- gasification boiler can benefit from additional storage as it creates a known demand, reduces idle time, burns cleaner, etc. I have sent an email to P&M regarding this issue, but I have not received an official answer as of yet.  Does anyone know why they would advertise such claims?  Does there design really have no benefit of adding additional thermal storage for residential applications?


My second issue is in regards to the question that has been dealt a thousand times, but I am still not sure I understand fully… low temperature return / corrosion issues.  From an old post made by heaterman :




heaterman said:


> The issue with your boiler or any boiler for that matter, is flue gas condensation. It simply has to be prevented in any boiler that is not designed to withstand liquid instead of vapor in the heat exchanger and flues. Doesn't matter if you're firing with wood, coal, oil or gas, Flue gas condensation will without fail eventually wreck your boiler.
> 
> 
> So ...the simple solution to preventing said condensation from happening is to keep the flue gas temperature above the dew point or otherwise said, the point at which vapor in the flue gas turns back into liquid. In most scenarios (there are a few variables) you will find that in order to maintain sufficient flue gas temp the water temperature must be kept above 140* for solid fuel appliances. (Moisture content of the fuel is a significant factor in this also)
> ...




If I understand this post correctly, the added thermal storage will reduce if not eliminate the idling time, meaning that one could do burning-batches and let the fire die out without being reignited for prolonged periods (for as long as the heated storage suffices).  As long as there is no flue gas in the exhaust, there is no risk of condensation… I’m I correct? The problem with condensation occurs when the fire is idling too low that the gas can’t/isn’t heated enough, correct?  Theoretically that would mean that the fire could be out for days and living with the storage without risking condensation?


My third and last question revolves around the pressurized and non pressurized storages.  I understand the pros and cons of both, but can someone install a pressurized system on a non pressurized boiler?  If I read and understood correctly, it is doable, with a heat/plate exchanger, but it is not the most efficient option as there is some BTUs lost in the transfer plates occurring?


If you are still reading this, I am amazed!  Thanks!


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## hobbyheater (Jan 23, 2014)

Jayf19 said:


> Although I have not separated the electricity consumed for things other than heating, I have the data for a -25 day (which is still -7 degrees short from design temperature), it appears that I used up 215.7822 kWh, or roughly 350,000 BTU on a 24 hour period.!




This is a small load for the optimizer 250 that can produce this in 2 hours of operation.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Jan 23, 2014)

I assume you are looking at cord wood not wood chips?

I read this "having a large storage tank of 2000 to 10000 gallons is not necessary" as having a 1000 or so gallon as a required.
If they don't, then I would advise to look somewhere else.


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## maple1 (Jan 23, 2014)

Don't confine your boiler selection to just what is available locally - you will have to live with the unit for (hopefully) a very long time.

On the condensation, it is not just a function of the stage of fire in your boiler, or flue gas in the exhaust. Creosote can condense in the firebox when burning if it is getting steadily cooled on the bottom with water that is lower than 140, even when burning wide open.


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## Jayf19 (Jan 23, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Don't confine your boiler selection to just what is available locally - you will have to live with the unit for (hopefully) a very long time.
> 
> On the condensation, it is not just a function of the stage of fire in your boiler, or flue gas in the exhaust. Creosote can condense in the firebox when burning if it is getting steadily cooled on the bottom with water that is lower than 140, even when burning wide open.



What scares me most is not being able to obtain servicing should any issues arise...

About the condensation, in that case, it would mean that the storage should never be allowed to go under 140, or have some type of bypass that will prevent the colder temperature from circulating within the boiler? (But what happens when you start the fire again if the water is in the danger-zone)?


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## maple1 (Jan 23, 2014)

Jayf19 said:


> What scares me most is not being able to obtain servicing should any issues arise...
> 
> About the condensation, in that case, it would mean that the storage should never be allowed to go under 140, or have some type of bypass that will prevent the colder temperature from circulating within the boiler? (But what happens when you start the fire again if the water is in the danger-zone)?


 
How handy are you?

I bought my boiler from over 1000 miles away - no regrets in my case at least. Very good service from even that far away - there have been a couple of mailings/deliveries from there since the original boiler one, and lots of correspondence & advise back & forth when I installed. If I had stuck to locally available I would still be in the dark ages, I think - your situation might be different. But there are a ton of choices out there. I plumbed everything myself - only outside help was wiring my new hot water heater & electric boiler.

Condensation is handled by thermostatic valve that mixes some hot supply water with return from storage to keep it above 140. It can either be a separate valve (search Danfoss) and a common circulator pump, or a valve/pump all in one unit called a Loading Unit (search LK810).


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## Jayf19 (Jan 23, 2014)

maple1 said:


> How handy are you?
> 
> I bought my boiler from over 1000 miles away - no regrets in my case at least. Very good service from even that far away - there have been a couple of mailings/deliveries from there since the original boiler one, and lots of correspondence & advise back & forth when I installed. If I had stuck to locally available I would still be in the dark ages, I think - your situation might be different. But there are a ton of choices out there. I plumbed everything myself - only outside help was wiring my new hot water heater & electric boiler.
> 
> Condensation is handled by thermostatic valve that mixes some hot supply water with return from storage to keep it above 140. It can either be a separate valve (search Danfoss) and a common circulator pump, or a valve/pump all in one unit called a Loading Unit (search LK810).



I can do basic jobs, as long as someone guides me / shows me how to do it.  Although my father-in-law is a handyman, I can't trust his judgement for certain aspects, but he will be of great help for some of the installation.

Aside from the DIY installation, what scares me most is warranty on the installation or availability of parts, should anything break.  I can't find myself in a situation where the boiler is faulty and can't run when it's -40 outside...  Bottom line is my fears might not be justified, and I am still open to the other companies, just leaning towards what's "easier" to get, or that will give me some feeling of security.


I understand the concept of the thermostatic, so I think this will be my final question regarding this issue; in order to prevent any risks of condensation, the storage should never go below the danger zone, which is normally set at 140, correct?


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## hobbyheater (Jan 23, 2014)

Jayf19 said:


> I’m currently looking to change my whole heating system (from electrical space heaters with an awkwardly placed free standing wood stove) to either a hydronic furnace powered by a gasifier (which means I would need to retrofit ductwork in the house), or radiant flooring for the first floor with hydronic radiators in the basement and second floor. I’m in the process of making a detailed heat load calculation of my 1,600 square feet 2-story home.  This portion of the design has yet to be discussed with the local installer as to what would be less costly and more appropriate for my house.




Is the house a total of 1,600 sq ft or 3,200 sq ft? Radiant flooring would be the way to go as much as possible and there are apparently new style baseboard heaters that also require lower water temps to work.




Jayf19 said:


> Regarding the gasifier, the only local dealer in my community carries Portage & Main boilers.  Although I am not too fond about an outdoor wood boiler, I am considering making a 20*10 heated outbuilding with the Economizer IDM 100 (there only indoors gasifier, with a maximum rated output ranging from 90,000 BTU to 140,000 BTU – depending on what web site you are looking at) with enough space to install 2-3 thermal tanks of 400 gallons each (questions regarding this approach follows).
> !



The unpressurized IDM will make it awkward to incorporate storage.
Have you considered the Garn Jr.?  It has the necessary storage incorporated into its design. This company has been around for over 30 years and still stocks parts for its earliest boilers.


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## JP11 (Jan 23, 2014)

I completely support the idea of 'buying local'

However, a boiler is something that is so specialized, you should NOT buy the brand just because bubba down at the hardware store got one, and signed to be a dealer so he could save a few bucks and buy 3 at once.

As for parts.. I keep a few fuses around.  I'm probably a bit overboard with a complete nozzle set sitting next to the boiler.. But after that..  What's the big deal?

Worst case for availability… say I blow a logic board and I need one.  

1.  I've got backup heat.  You will need it to.  something. Electric, plain wood stove, propane… whatever.
2.  Is there really anything that can't be had from somewhere in the world and sent overnight freight?  I bet I could get ANY part for my boiler within 1 or 2 days.. and the importer is a 10 hour drive away.  My dealer is a 3 or 4 hour drive.  He's always been johnny on the spot when I call.  I bet if I was truly down, he'd be just as quick with any part I need.  

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a boiler from a guy across the country.
A GOOD dealer at the end of a telephone with a  daily UPS pickup… is 100X better than a crappy dealer the next town over.

Go with the boiler that you want.  

Read A LOT on here.  I'd steer away from an OWB solely from efficiency standpoint.  Don't scrimp on install.  As the saying goes…. there's always the money to do it right the SECOND time.  

JP


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## Jayf19 (Jan 24, 2014)

hobbyheater said:


> Is the house a total of 1,600 sq ft or 3,200 sq ft? Radiant flooring would be the way to go as much as possible and there are apparently new style baseboard heaters that also require lower water temps to work.




Actually, the total square feet to be heated is 2,350 , described as follows :


Basement = 675 square feet to be heated with hydronic radiators / baseboards

First floor = 800 square feet to be heated with radiant floors using the joist method

Second floor = 675 square feet to be heated with hydronic radiators

Wood shed / boiler room (doesn’t exist yet) = 200 square feet to be heated with a hydronic radiator


Although I also have an extremely poorly insulated garage and a barn that I would like to heat, these will be plans for another decade as I don’t think I can afford a boiler big enough at the moment (and it is quite pressing that I change the current heating method for health and safety reasons).






hobbyheater said:


> The unpressurized IDM will make it awkward to incorporate storage.




That is good to know.





hobbyheater said:


> Have you considered the Garn Jr.?  It has the necessary storage incorporated into its design. This company has been around for over 30 years and still stocks parts for its earliest boilers.





I have considered and read the models/installation/operating/warranty manuals of the most common brands including Eko, Tarm, Econoburn, Garn, P&M, Profab’s Empyre and Biomass.  I did seriously consider the Garn models a while back, when I had 0 clue regarding my actual heat load, and so I had not looked into the Garn Jr, thinking that I needed at least the 1500.  So thanks for pointing me back to that model :D  I will get a quote on it to give me an idea.





JP11 said:


> I completely support the idea of 'buying local'
> 
> 
> However, a boiler is something that is so specialized, you should NOT buy the brand just because bubba down at the hardware store got one, and signed to be a dealer so he could save a few bucks and buy 3 at once.
> ...




You brought some very valid point and will strongly consider the other brands. Thank you


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## Armaton (Jan 25, 2014)

If I read correctly, you only have approximately a  15K BTU per hour design load? Seems fairly minimal. Any of the smaller units "should" suffice. No, the storage temp could be 40 degrees, as long as you have an appropriate thermal protection valve/loading unit you will be good. How it works is the thermal valve takes some of the 180 degree water from the boiler, and mixes the cooler water from storage with it down to a minimum of 140 degrees to insure boiler protection, until return water from storage is 140 degrees, then the valve closes completely and all 180 degree water would go to storage, (In theory). If you are building a "Boiler Shed" anyway, you could incorporate a 500 propane tank for storage and go pressurized, as many on this site have done.


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## phantomblack (Jan 25, 2014)

I completely agree with your Idea to go with an OWB. They keep the mess, smell, and bugs all outside. The standby losses that you will have are minimal, no matter what you may read here. Also there is no "hit" from the insurance man with an OWB. 

I have a central boiler, but looked at a portage and main. They are well built high quality boilers. They were just out of my price range. Whatever you choose, burn responsibly and enjoy the independence.


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## flyingcow (Jan 25, 2014)

Guys you have me curious...in '07 CB wanted 12k+ for an E-Classic.? P n M can't be that high??Or is it? From looking from way outside to the in, the PnM looks like a true gasser. CB isn't.


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## phantomblack (Jan 25, 2014)

When I was looking at the portage and main optimizer 250 it was right around 13k for the boiler, but that was back in 09.


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## flyingcow (Jan 25, 2014)

I went from looking at a CB classic ( $12k+... 100 gals of oil equaled a cord of well seasoned wood) to a gasser $7k ( 1 cord of well seasoned wood equaled 150/175 gals of oil) plus storage($4k). That equaled $11k. For the long term..it worked for me.


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## phantomblack (Jan 25, 2014)

Wow, the classic you looked at was pricy. I paid 6800 for mine (5036).


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## flyingcow (Jan 25, 2014)

phantomblack said:


> Wow, the classic you looked at was pricy. I paid 6800 for mine (5036).



5036 is the ole' unit. Not EPA compliant. Can only buy the E-Classic in the great state of Maine. So great to part of the beautiful crowd......


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## phantomblack (Jan 25, 2014)

Hey, it's a beautiful place to blend in.


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## flyingcow (Jan 25, 2014)

phantomblack said:


> Hey, it's a beautiful place to blend in.



I don't blend in well......


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 25, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Guys you have me curious...in '07 CB wanted 12k+ for an E-Classic.? P n M can't be that high??Or is it? From looking from way outside to the in, the PnM looks like a true gasser. CB isn't.


It is. P&M is my choice for an OWB. But for the cost of just the outdoor unit i did my whole system set up in barn.


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## Jayf19 (Jan 26, 2014)

Armaton said:


> If I read correctly, you only have approximately a  15K BTU per hour design load? Seems fairly minimal. Any of the smaller units "should" suffice. No, the storage temp could be 40 degrees, as long as you have an appropriate thermal protection valve/loading unit you will be good. How it works is the thermal valve takes some of the 180 degree water from the boiler, and mixes the cooler water from storage with it down to a minimum of 140 degrees to insure boiler protection, until return water from storage is 140 degrees, then the valve closes completely and all 180 degree water would go to storage, (In theory). If you are building a "Boiler Shed" anyway, you could incorporate a 500 propane tank for storage and go pressurized, as many on this site have done.



The design load is still to be determined for precision purposes, the numbers I gave were based on a complete day of electricity (including other than heating usage) just to give an idea. 

The thing I have a hard time getting my head around is the fact that if the storage temperature has come down to, let's say 40 degrees as you mentioned, the boiler will have been off during the period that the heat is pulled from storage.  Isn't there a risk of condensation while the boiler is cooling down after the last batch burn?  I'm not sure I'm getting all the steps involved... : 

1. Make a roaring fire that heats up the storage temperature to 185.
2. Fire dies and storage is at 185.
3. Water circulates in the boiler even if the boiler is off since the water is still at 185.
4. Storage gets down to 159 and thermal valve kicks in to prevent cooler water from going in the boiler.
5. Boiler gets cold because it is not reignited, but the storage still manages to keep the house warm since the radiant flooring runs at 90 degrees
6. Storage is down to 120, I am back from wherever I was, and I decide to burn another batch of wood (or 2) to bring back the storage temperature to 185

What happens between steps 4 & 5 to the boiler?  Is there a risk of condensation at that point?  And what about step 6 , when the boiler needs to reheat from a cold state to a hotter state?

As for the pressurized storage in an un-pressurized boiler, I will need to read more on the subject.  So thanks for pointing me in that direction!


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 26, 2014)

The boiler comes up to operating temp fast enough that its not really an issue. That is the design intent of lower mass boilers with storage. Varms come to mind The idea is that they heat up fast and small water volume in boiler starts pumping hot water to load or storage very soon after lighting. In the summer when mine goes to ambient it takes less than 15mins to bring it up to temp. If i am firing every 24 hours itis usually about 140* when i go to light as the boiler itself is well insulated.


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## Armaton (Feb 1, 2014)

The only cooler water the boiler "sees" is what is in the loop from its output to the inlet. Restart the fire, when water in boiler gets to about 160 degrees, pump should kick on, then the Thermal valve does it's thing again. Minimal "cooler" water to the boiler. Have you ever seen a "Well Tank" when someone is watering their lawn? A long duration of 50 degree water pumping into the tank with 70-90 degree air outside of it causes the tank to "Sweat", which is the type of condensation we are worried about.  Or at least thats how it was explained to me.


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## Fred61 (Feb 1, 2014)

With the low mass boiler after you light your fire there is a small section of time that there may be a little condensation but that is only a short period when the dreaded black acidic soup is formed and then it is quickly evaporated. It's not like the condensation instantly drills a hole in the water jacket upon formation. Following up on your scenario above, at the end of the burn there will be no condensation produced because the moisture that could condense on the walls is not being produced. Remember that water or moisture is a byproduct of combustion and at that point there is no fire so the walls will stay dry and hopefully if your burn is intense enough it will dry out and crisp all but  a thin layer on the walls.


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## martyinmi (Feb 1, 2014)

phantomblack said:


> When I was looking at the portage and main optimizer 250 it was right around 13k for the boiler, but that was back in 09.


Three of us bought P&M 250's in the fall of '11. We got them delivered to where I work $9,660 each.
I think they've went up in price to about $11,500 now.
One needs to check with your states government before importing from Canada. We all got surprised with a bill from the state of Michigan in the beginning of '12 wanting their 6%. We checked with our book keepers and found out that there was no getting around it. Another $580 and it put our total up to $10,240.


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## NE WOOD BURNER (Feb 1, 2014)

I was curious about the import cost when I was looking. could not get a definite answer on that. I guess that is why its hard to find a stocking dealer. that could be a bit of money to sit on.


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## Jayf19 (Feb 27, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> With the low mass boiler after you light your fire there is a small section of time that there may be a little condensation but that is only a short period when the dreaded black acidic soup is formed and then it is quickly evaporated. It's not like the condensation instantly drills a hole in the water jacket upon formation. Following up on your scenario above, at the end of the burn there will be no condensation produced because the moisture that could condense on the walls is not being produced. Remember that water or moisture is a byproduct of combustion and at that point there is no fire so the walls will stay dry and hopefully if your burn is intense enough it will dry out and crisp all but  a thin layer on the walls.



I didn't receive the updates that my thread had more replies.  Thanks for the answer, this clears it up


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