# New Member, Greenwood Observations..



## GENECOP (Jan 31, 2014)

Hi everyone, happy to have found this Forum, just wanted to share a couple of thoughts regarding our Greenwood 100.....I am a builder and contractor (down state NY) got the idea about 3 years ago to incorporate the Greenwood 100 into my Buderus Oil Fired Boiler...I am on year 5 of a large scale Reno on our 4000 Sqft house....(Wife is a Saint)...this past week is the first week the Greenwood has been used to heat Via our radiant.......I went through one winter with a cieling hung 32000 BTu Garage type Blower hung from my living room cieling....the Greenwood had to be fed a lot, that type of unit is anything but efficient...
         A couple of things to note about this part of the country that I am in...THERE ARE NOOO WOOD BOILERS, and very few people that know anything about them......the people around here that I have been working for for 30 years want nothing to do with anything that involves extra work, they have the $ for oil or gas and just want to hit a button , actually they would rather have their housekeeper hit the button....I tell you this because the learning curve has been steep, I work with solid Plumbers, Electricians Etc,,,,and my main plumber designed the system but he used his general knowledge because he had no specific knowledge of wood boilers.....I am happy to report all is well, third full day of burning, nice white interior, very little emission, no smoke as long as I open the door to load when the damper is open...we have had some 16deg nights, I get about 6 hrs when the Greenwood is wide open....so far, I Love it.....
          My reason for joining are twofold, one to thank you all for being here, I have read a lot and good solid non bias info is hard to come by....secondly I have read about many unsatisfied Greenwood owners.....it's unfortunate but I think most of the problems stem from poor install and design.....some people come on and say...." we had it professionally installed"  that in my opinion means nothing, my town is full of "PROFFESSIONALS " that I would not let wash my car....These installs as you know are all site specific, very finicky, and for a very simple principle can go off the rails very quickly......we may have gotten lucky, the stars may have lined up, but so far this unit is great, it's becoming an obsession, checking temps, in the basement, out to the shed, load a massive round, middle of the night, I really love it......my oil gauge has not moved, and I am heating with wood.....All is good in the world.....Thanks Again. Maybe I will try to get some photos up.... G


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## Pat53 (Jan 31, 2014)

Report back in March about what your heat exchanger looks like.


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## GENECOP (Jan 31, 2014)

60 gallon Super Store.....


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## GENECOP (Feb 3, 2014)




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## BoilerMan (Feb 3, 2014)

Welcome to the forums!  Do you have any type of return protection for the boiler?  You mentioned radiant, is it a wet (in some type of slab) or a dry system (suspended under subfloor). 

I totally agree with you about the "professional" quote as well.  As one myself, I've seen MANY very poor installs by pros, but I've seen many very poor/dangerous installs by homeowners, so it's a double edged sward. 

GW/Seaton designs need dry wood and hot return temps to work reasonably well.  The biggest flaw in the design is the total lack of a sealed fireside system.  The skins need to be removed for one dirty awful HX cleaning.  If kept hot they do work pretty well, let them idle and forget it.............worst boiler out there to idle (not that any should). 

TS


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## GENECOP (Feb 3, 2014)

I will eventually get some more photos up......radiant is in concrete, I am a Concrete Fabricator, countertops, Floors, etc....I am just now running the system less than wide open, we have been hovering around 33Deg most of the day....I have a wireless Redi Check strapped to the feed and return on the back of the Greenwood......the sweet balanced numbers seem to be 153 out 142 return, I never let the return go under 130, this seems to keep things White and Hot. I just settled on this 130 return number, I experimented with lower but I sometimes would need to begin a reignition process, At 130 return I can put in one or two split pieces and a Large round, 15 minutes later my numbers are back to the 150's out.....how do those numbers seem to you? Thanks for the Welcome..


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## BoilerMan (Feb 3, 2014)

The general accepted lowest return temp for any wood boiler is 140, I like to see at least 150 coming back to the boiler for extended times. 

Keep us posted, and we do love pics!

I did my own slab 2200 sq.ft. and let me tell you, I have lots of respect for anyone who does that for a living.  Not a fan of concrete work....

TS


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## Pat53 (Feb 3, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Welcome to the forums!  Do you have any type of return protection for the boiler?  You mentioned radiant, is it a wet (in some type of slab) or a dry system (suspended under subfloor).
> 
> I totally agree with you about the "professional" quote as well.  As one myself, I've seen MANY very poor installs by pros, but I've seen many very poor/dangerous installs by homeowners, so it's a double edged sward.
> 
> ...



I added 500 gallons storage 2 years ago with my Seaton and that has helped a lot as far as keeping the HX cleaner. I had always set my return temp at about 140F before the unit would re-fire. This year, I tried 160F and it has made an even bigger difference in keeping the HX very clean. I'm burning mostly 4 year old red oak now.

And as Boilerman has stated, DEFINITELY NOT the unit to let smolder and idle for long periods of time. I'm expecting my annual HX cleaning to be much easier this year, that's the good news. The bad news is that I may have to replace my top skin, starting to develop small holes all over the center area. Easy to replace, but still will ending costing at least $50 for the materials. Might be able to get another year out of it first.

Pat


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## GENECOP (Feb 3, 2014)

Got me thinking about the Temps......I have been using the Redi Check to monitor my Feed and return. As you know the Sensing Rod just lays across the top of the pipe under the insulation, I also taped the insulation in that area to increase the pressure so I have good contact from pipe to sensor....My numbers have been around 153 feed 143 return, seems like a nice hot, smooth burn at those numbers.....then I got thinking how accurate is the Redi Check, Duhhhh, I checked the Tridicater Gauge, my Feed is a solid 160, so there is a 7 Deg difference. My new numbers are Feed 160, return 150...., Should I be Happy with those numbers? BTW I am heating a 60 Gallon Super Store and another 57 Gallons through my Buderus Indirect....Thanks....


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## flyingcow (Feb 3, 2014)

I've seen one of these locally. Works good with a big heat load.


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## GENECOP (Feb 3, 2014)




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## GENECOP (Feb 3, 2014)




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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Been burning and keeping a close eye on everything for the last month, a couple of days ago I started to get a strange smell from the Greenwood....almost like oil!!...figured maybe it was the wood, new batch, just keep an eye on it I thought. I have also been closely watching the water temps in-out....last night water temp went up 2Degrees higher than ever before, also my water temps where holding steadier, the house was warmer, my burn times where lasting longer, I was happy, but confused. So this morning I decided to let the fire burn down and get a closer look at things...Now let's back track two weeks ago,, after staring and obsessing about how this thing works for the last month I noticed that while I was burning pretty clean, there was still good heat going up the chimney. I started to think that if I installed a damper in the flue and closed it at just the right time, I would lock the heat in, so I ordered an inline damper from Amazon...Now back to this morning, I get up on my roof 8AM before the snow, approach my custom made concrete chimney cap with Stainless Steel Mesh....as I get close I realize the mesh is clogged up pretty good, I lift my cap, inspect the flue, not bad, but the mesh, Totally clogged....(working like a damper)..I cleaned things up, swept the chimney, fired it up again, no smell, Great draft....this confirmed the usefulness of the damper, I think it will really extend my burn times and increase my efficiency....will post again after the install and post a few more photos...it's a learning experience for sure...


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## Fred61 (Mar 2, 2014)

That tells me you're sending crap out your chimney. For every grain that got caught in your screen thousands more went into the air. A damper will more than likely cause the fire to burn slower albeit colder and put more crap out the stack.


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> That tells me you're sending crap out your chimney. For every grain that got caught in your screen thousands more went into the air. A damper will more than likely cause the fire to burn slower albeit colder and put more crap out the stack.



The caps I built are concrete with stainless steel mesh with 3/8" holes, it's a little tight, I also have been burning off some of my older uglier stuff first, I only smoke a little at ignition, if the mesh had larger holes it would not have clogged so easy....the flue pipe had a very light coat after 5-6 weeks of 24-7 burning....


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Also the closing of the damper has to happen only after most of the initial burn is done, not while full burn, there should be no smoke when the damper is closed, at least that is the plan.....


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## maple1 (Mar 2, 2014)

Have you actually measured your flue temps? Preferably with a good internal probe? Until you do you can't really be sure on the heat up the pipe thing. And have you measured your flue draft? I think I would be very hesitant to go anything beyond using a barometric damper to maintain spec flue draft - the key damper on my old boiler would sometimes get moved a bit by wind gusts which led to unhappy things happening, either in the way of too much fire going up the pipe or smoke coming out the draft door. Have you investigated getting your draft fan to ramp down as the fire dies? Not sure on the possibilities there though.

Was the buildup on your screen actually creosote? No chance it was an ash/ice mix?


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Have you actually measured your flue temps? Preferably with a good internal probe? Until you do you can't really be sure on the heat up the pipe thing. And have you measured your flue draft? I think I would be very hesitant to go anything beyond using a barometric damper to maintain spec flue draft - the key damper on my old boiler would sometimes get moved a bit by wind gusts which led to unhappy things happening, either in the way of too much fire going up the pipe or smoke coming out the draft door. Have you investigated getting your draft fan to ramp down as the fire dies? Not sure on the possibilities there though.
> 
> Was the buildup on your screen actually creosote? No chance it was an ash/ice mix?



Good Questions to get me thinking, thanks...regarding flue temps Greenwood states 250-350 Degree gasses exiting Fluepipe, this is confirmed Via a magnetic therm....My Draft inducer is wired into my damper door, open door, fan goes on, closed door, fan off....draft has been so good I usually manually turn fan off once the fire comes up to temp, less cycling (idling).,,the buildup on my screen was dark, very light and fine, I just ran a wire brush over the screen and it cleaned up with a couple of passes....does that sound like creosote?....


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

6" flue pipe, two 90,s out the back, then straight up and out the chimney with draft inducer...


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## maple1 (Mar 2, 2014)

GENECOP said:


> Good Questions to get me thinking, thanks...regarding flue temps Greenwood states 250-350 Degree gasses exiting Fluepipe, this is confirmed Via a magnetic therm....My Draft inducer is wired into my damper door, open door, fan goes on, closed door, fan off....draft has been so good I usually manually turn fan off once the fire comes up to temp, less cycling (idling).,,the buildup on my screen was dark, very light and fine, I just ran a wire brush over the screen and it cleaned up with a couple of passes....does that sound like creosote?....


 
If it was black, it was creosote.

How tall is your chimney? Does it have a barometric damper? I'm suspecting you have too much chimney draft. Magnetic guages also read way low - when I'm burning, my probe guage reads around 200c. The magnetic right beside it reads 100c less. A Dywer Mark II Model 25 might be a good investment for you - along with a good internal probe. And likely a barometric damper. Does the manual say HOW flue temps should be measured?


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## flyingcow (Mar 2, 2014)

I like the idea of you shutting off your fan to reduce cycling. Seems to me like a good move?


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Here are a few condition photos


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Cement chimney caps with SS mesh....single Is Boiler, double is FP and Oil fired boiler...three flues.


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Front of unit


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Rear


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Stove Defender, draft inducer, top end


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

The Firebox


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

The dreaded oil, and SS


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)




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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

Had enough?


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

maple1 said:


> If it was black, it was creosote.
> 
> How tall is your chimney? Does it have a barometric damper? I'm suspecting you have too much chimney draft. Magnetic guages also read way low - when I'm burning, my probe guage reads around 200c. The magnetic right beside it reads 100c less. A Dywer Mark II Model 25 might be a good investment for you - along with a good internal probe. And likely a barometric damper. Does the manual say HOW flue temps should be measured?



No Barometric Damper, should I have one? No mention in install manual.....what exactly would it do for my setup?


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## maple1 (Mar 2, 2014)

That depends on what your flue draft is - which is why I asked what it was, and suggested the Dwyer. Does the manual have a draft spec?


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

maple1 said:


> That depends on what your flue draft is - which is why I asked what it was, and suggested the Dwyer. Does the manual have a draft spec?



0.05----0.07.....water column......how do I test for that?


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## maple1 (Mar 2, 2014)

With a manometer - the Dwyer Mark II Model 25 is a prime candidate.

Should be a few on Ebay, for starters.

How tall is your chimney?

Also, might be pic perspective, but the flue pipe looks pretty close to some combustible stuff in places.


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## GENECOP (Mar 2, 2014)

maple1 said:


> With a manometer - the Dwyer Mark II Model 25 is a prime candidate.
> 
> Should be a few on Ebay, for starters.
> 
> ...



I will measure length of flue Tommorrow, Flue pipe is strapped to brick chimney on right, metal on door trim....Just noticed you are in Nova Scotia.....wife and I hope to live in Cape Breton one day soon.....I am always looking at Tradewinds Realty.....what a beautiful place....thanks PS, I will check out EBay....


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## BoilerMan (Mar 2, 2014)

Keep in mind that the top and at least the rear of the boiler have to be removed in order for HX cleaning.  Some tight clearances there.

TS


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## GENECOP (Mar 3, 2014)

Let system cool down today and added damper, changed out rusty elbow....will close of damper today first time at end of peak burn....I have all the temps and reductions recorded over the last 6 weeks, so I should be able to tell the benefits (if any) in a couple of hours..


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## maple1 (Mar 3, 2014)

GENECOP said:


> I will measure length of flue Tommorrow, Flue pipe is strapped to brick chimney on right, metal on door trim....Just noticed you are in Nova Scotia.....wife and I hope to live in Cape Breton one day soon.....I am always looking at Tradewinds Realty.....what a beautiful place....thanks PS, I will check out EBay....


 
My kids are half-Caper. All my wifes family is from the Louisbourg area. Yes, very nice place - we think so anyway.


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## flyingcow (Mar 3, 2014)

maple1 said:


> My kids are half-Caper. All my wifes family is from the Louisbourg area. Yes, very nice place - we think so anyway.




been to PEI, haven't made the trip to NS, yet. Have been to New Brunswick too many times to count. I grew up on the border, not so many yrs ago.  I had been to another Country many, many times before i went to New Hampshire. Canada is a good neighbor, except when you guys send down the arctic highs....hard on my wood pile.


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## GENECOP (Mar 4, 2014)

Flue Pipe total is 16-17' straight up, just two nineties at the bottom....so far so good with the damper....I do not engage damper when fire Is new or active, only after main burn is complete and it gets to the simmer state....tiny drop of white smoke when damper is on, then it clears up and my temps either climb, stabilize, or slowly start to drop...much slower than pre damper......15Deg today.....should be a good test if I can be around.....O yea also raised the Aquastat a few Degrees...


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## GENECOP (Mar 6, 2014)

OK a few days of using the damper now, much more time between burns, easier restarts....when the fire gets down to a good sized bed of hot coals I engage the damper, the decline in temp from that point is very very slow....seven - eight hours later open the door, still a good bed of red hot, easy to get stove up to temp again....less food for the beast....The key here for me is not to engage the damper to early, the heavy burn must be complete...I have it pretty consistent with around 138 water temp out....seems like the sweet spot....


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## GENECOP (Mar 22, 2014)

Next long entry......so we come upon the Spring season, I ordered the Nyle Geyser...four weeks out....running the Greenwood Boiler is bit tricky with warmer temps so I decided to use a little oil......but here is the funny part....The Tecmar Controller Intimidates me...I admit it....tried to read the manual, looks like Greek to me....my plumber is not to good with the control end either.....so when it came time to hook up the Tecmar I had a control guy come over, wire it up, give me a quick 5 minute tutorial which I forgot 10 minutes after he left....4 days later I had my plumber come over to finish up a few things and attempt to switch over to wood, this was in Jan, Feb....or so....I hit a few buttons...Mode one, Mode two.....Differntial.....curve .....holy chit.....finally the Greenwood came to life......Damper opened, inducer came on...I was thrilled...quick start a fire.....this was a couple of months ago.....I realized in the process of hitting buttons the oil burner (mode 2 ) got turned off....so fearfull of screwing things up I decided to plow through the winter with wood only...this leads me to this morning....The control guy when he was explaining things to me told me that the wood boiler and oil furnace would switch back and forth, I would need to play with the differential...so I woke up today and decided...time to hit some more Tecmar Buttons....ran into the basement, stood a few minutes starring at the Tecmar, here we go, Menu....Adjust.....a few clicks later, running up and down the basement stairs...will the oil burner start again after a two month nap...click click...nothing...run upstairs again, to the Greenwood, better load more wood in....then suddenly the roar of the Riello....Buderus is running again...Yahoo...wait a minute....the Greenwood is running also...Water Temp is rising....much quicker than usual...that's because this is the first time I am heating with both wood and oil..The temp continues to climb..what's going to happen next?...165-170..,Oil shuts off, and Greenwood shuts down at the same time...Amazingly, things are working, and for the first time, together...this is beyond exciting for me.I now have many new things to learn....not sure about setting the Differntial.....right now they seem to go on and off together....O yea...the funny part...all winter during the coldest nights I had to get up more than once...had I pushed a few more buttons two months ago the oil would have taken over until the morning and I could have slept through the night...o well....I did save money even if it was at the cost of a good nights sleep....more to come......


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## BoilerMan (Mar 23, 2014)

Why are you adjusting your Tekmar controller.  A  heat loss should be done and your radiation compaired to come up with an outdoor reset ratio.  You can take a guess and then adjust it from there but that is done in days.  Ideally constant circulation or near constant circulation is the goal with outdoor reset control.

I'm a licensed HVAC control guy. 

TS


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## GENECOP (Mar 23, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Why are you adjusting your Tekmar controller.  A  heat loss should be done and your radiation compaired to come up with an outdoor reset ratio.  You can take a guess and then adjust it from there but that is done in days.  Ideally constant circulation or near constant circulation is the goal with outdoor reset control.
> 
> I'm a licensed HVAC control guy.
> 
> TS



If you are ever in NY, give me a call....would love to have someone who has a clue adjust my system


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## BoilerMan (Mar 24, 2014)

GENECOP said:


> If you are ever in NY, give me a call....would love to have someone who has a clue adjust my system


The eastern NY boarder is a 9.5 hour drive, it's been a few years, but I've been to Balston Spa NY.

TS


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## GENECOP (Mar 24, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> The eastern NY boarder is a 9.5 hour drive, it's been a few years, but I've been to Balston Spa NY.
> 
> TS



We are looking to relocate to Northern Maine in a few years.....a nice Homestead Cabin with 10 Acres or so.....water on the property would be nice...let me know if you hear of anything.....we are in the middle of Long Island...it's a big ride from your neck of the woods.....


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## BoilerMan (Mar 24, 2014)

Expected low of -8 tonight, and there is OVER 4 FEET OF SNOW still on the ground 

TS


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## Fred61 (Mar 24, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Expected low of -8 tonight, and there is OVER 4 FEET OF SNOW still on the ground
> 
> TS


That's one way to keep those New Yorkers out.


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## GENECOP (Mar 25, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> That's one way to keep those New Yorkers out.



Cant scare us away.....snow and cold.....Bring it on.....I can't guarantee we won't Bug out a couple of months during the winter.....


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## BoilerMan (Mar 25, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> That's one way to keep those New Yorkers out.


Hahaha, you really got me laughing on that one Fred.  It's been a long time quote of mine when people start complaining about the cold "Well it keeps the riffraff away".

TS


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## GENECOP (Mar 26, 2014)

Had my first ( and last hopefully) Boilover...have been getting used to for the first time running oil and wood at the same time....adjusting the Aquastats and the differential.....trying to get the Greenwood working as the primary and the Buderus come on as backup.....it's a slow process of adjustments but I think I have it now....Yesterday however I got home . Fire was low...often at low times I will throw in 4-6 pieces of super dry cut up Pallet...Pine, Maple, Oak....all blocks nice and dry....these blocks unload a lot of heat FAST.....works great to get the bigger stuff burning...So sitting in the kitchen with my wife chatting.....happy about the day and how smoothly I had the Greenwood running.....KLANK KLANK....WTF.  Was that? Bang Bang, sounds like trouble.....Chimney fire? Cant be, run to back of the boiler, stack temp OK......chit....run for the Temp Gauge.....pushing 340 Deg.....Hmm, usually I top out at 170...HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM.....Tell the wife to turn on all hot water, sinks , showers, everything....I run into the basement, hook up a hose to the bottom of the Super Store.....open it up....all hots running....30 seconds temps start to drop....we moved quickly and remained calm, A few minutes later the temps where down and the system was calling for heat....I surmised that the Buderus Aquastat was to high, it had recently come on, brought the temps up but the Greewood Aquastat was still not satisfied, (but it was close)...I then dumped all that dry stock in, Aquastat got satisfied but after damper closed there was still to much heat building and the Superstore was maxed out....I was Making Steam....Yahoo...Anyway lesson learned, no harm done....just using this thread as a record of events and hopefully someone can learn something  from my process....


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## maple1 (Mar 26, 2014)

You need better overheat protection.

Doesn't even sound like you have a dump zone or dumping capabilities?


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## GENECOP (Mar 26, 2014)

maple1 said:


> You need better overheat protection.
> 
> Doesn't even sound like you have a dump zone or dumping capabilities?



Any suggestions....I have seen some use a tank mounted above the unit...just not to clear on how that would work...


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## Fred61 (Mar 26, 2014)

GENECOP said:


> My reason for joining are twofold, one to thank you all for being here, I have read a lot and good solid non bias info is hard to come by....secondly I have read about many unsatisfied Greenwood owners.....it's unfortunate but I think most of the problems stem from poor install and design.....some people come on and say...." we had it professionally installed"  that in my opinion means nothing, my town is full of "PROFFESSIONALS " that I would not let wash my car....


Perhaps you have joined the group that shouldn't be washing your car.


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> Perhaps you have joined the group that shouldn't be washing your car.



Ok....but how about a basic explanation of how a Heat Dump is designed and works?


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## flyingcow (Mar 27, 2014)

I'll take a stab at this. Basically when you're boiler overheats, it will open a zone in the house, or zones, and dump the heat. But this is usually for when/if the boiler over shoots for a short period.


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> I'll take a stab at this. Basically when you're boiler overheats, it will open a zone in the house, or zones, and dump the heat. But this is usually for when/if the boiler over shoots for a short period.



That's kind of what I was thinking thanks, so if I take the outfeed supply from the wood boiler that leads to the Super Store.....cut a tee into it that leads to a Coil.....Baseboard.....Some kind of heat dissipater.....with an Aquastat / valve that is set to only open at a point above normal operating temps....then closes again after normal operating temps restore....does that sound right?


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

Also I will be adding one hydronic zone for second floor heating....forced hot air....that can be a built in dump zone, maybe?....the radiant in concrete that currently is my only heat source will not work as a dump because of the temp maintained by the returning water....very little heat loss....am I seeing this correctly?


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## Fred61 (Mar 27, 2014)

I would make suggestions but your system is still not clear to me. My first hang-up is the fact that you are running oil and wood at the same time. To most here it is either /or. Is it that the heat load surpasses the output of the Greenwood?

Anyhow, a dump zone needs to be a circuit that will run on gravity and one that will extract enough heat to create it's own circulation. Some heating zones are laid out in such a way so they will automatically circulate. Others will build a dump zone with finned copper above the boiler that is large enough to dissipate the extra heat from an overheated boiler. A zone with a water to air heat exchanger won't work if there is a power failure and sometimes it's difficult or nearly impossible to get gravity circulation in a slab.


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## Chris Hoskin (Mar 27, 2014)

there are typically two types of dump zone that are both strongly recommended for wood boilers.  The first is for when the electricity is on and everything is normal except that for some reason the boiler has exceeded 200 degrees F (or so).  In this case an aquastat on the boiler tricks out the room thermostat in your largest heating zone (typically) and dumps heat into that zone regardless of the room temperature.  This zone could be your living room hot water baseboard, a Modine-type heater in your garage or even a radiant slab.  

The second type of dump zone is for when the electrical power fails.  The fan on the boiler shuts off (assuming the boiler has a fan) so the fire tends to damp down to low output, but because your pumps also quit, no heat is able to move away from the boiler and the boiler temp can creep up.  With most boilers a simple gravity dump zone (thermo-siphon) can be installed above the boiler.  The only thing in this simple loop made up of a supply line, several lengths of fin-tube plumbed in parallel, and a return to the boiler, is a zone valve that is held CLOSED by electricity.  When the power fails, the zone valve opens and the thermo-siphon starts and keeps the boiler from over heating.  HOWEVER, my understanding is that, because of the huge amount of thermal energy stored in the very large thermal mass of a Seaton-type boiler like the Greenwood that this type of gravity dump zone will not be adequate for this type of boiler.  There is simply too much energy stored in the thermal mass, at too high a temperature, to dissipate via gravity flow through one inch lines and some fin-tube.  As such, it is my understanding that this type of boiler needs an automatic back-up generator or battery back-up (UPS) to power an active (pumped) dump zone.


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> I would make suggestions but your system is still not clear to me. My first hang-up is the fact that you are running oil and wood at the same time. To most here it is either /or. Is it that the heat load surpasses the output of the Greenwood?
> 
> Anyhow, a dump zone needs to be a circuit that will run on gravity and one that will extract enough heat to create it's own circulation. Some heating zones are laid out in such a way so they will automatically circulate. Others will build a dump zone with finned copper above the boiler that is large enough to dissipate the extra heat from an overheated boiler. A zone with a water to air heat exchanger won't work if there is a power failure and sometimes it's difficult or nearly impossible to get gravity circulation in a slab.



Ok, I am waiting for the Geyser Heat Pump to be delivered....they are running about 4 weeks out. The Geyser will hopefully take care of our domestic needs throughout the Spring and Summer.....Because I don't have a lot of water storage yet I can't make a Fire in the GW and have hot domestic water all day....additionally with the weather warming up the GW is a PITA.....running full out is a waste of wood since the demand is low when temps hit the 40's.   My plan was always to have the oil system online so in the middle of the winter if my fire runs out at 3AM the oil will take over until the morning when I wake up and reload the GW...Nobody around here runs like that? Also if I am out for the day I am looking to have the oil take over until I get home....My reason for running both now is more about learning how it will work and making adjustments...I am now running small fires as they die out the oil has been going on for a few minutes here and there...My GW sits just above the Super store which is in the basement...if I am understanding correctly this is a good thing...can I somehow install a gravity fed Dump in the basement below the GW? Just not seeing the piping and the actual dump....are there any diagrams or photos around showing the specifics, thanks...One more thing, in the dead of winter heating about 3700 well insulated Sq feet might be a little much for the GW 100, I was hoping the oil would assist on the really cold nights if needed....


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## maple1 (Mar 27, 2014)

It's not that they are both 'online' - it's that they seem to be both firing at the same time, sometimes. Or, too close together. What are your cut-in & cut-out points for the oil side? They should be set relatively low when burning wood, or with more temp spread between them. You don't have to try to adjust it so that the oil cuts in immediately when the wood goes out. There can be a delay or more temp drop between them. I think on my old one I had it set to cut in at 140 and cut out at 160. Sounds like yours must be set quite a bit higher?

EDIT: I won't go into dumping any more, there are good suggestions above. But I would not operate that Greenwood without it being able to dump heat automatically. What would happen if the power went out when you had a fire on?


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## Fred61 (Mar 27, 2014)

GENECOP said:


> My GW sits just above the Super store which is in the basement...if I am understanding correctly this is a good thing...can I somehow install a gravity fed Dump in the basement below the GW? Just not seeing the piping and the actual dump


It's impossible to have your gravity dump below your heat source.



maple1 said:


> What would happen if the power went out when you had a fire on?


It's called a BOMB


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> It's impossible to have your gravity dump below your heat source.
> 
> 
> It's called a BOMB



No it's called the Stove Defender I think ....a couple of deep cycle marine batteries and a Generator for when my batteries die.....it switches over instantly to battery backup if power is lost...


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## Fred61 (Mar 27, 2014)

GENECOP said:


> No it's called the Stove Defender I think ....a couple of deep cycle marine batteries and a Generator for when my batteries die.....it switches over instantly to battery backup if power is lost...


How come it didn't come on during your boil over?


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

Chris Hoskin said:


> there are typically two types of dump zone that are both strongly recommended for wood boilers.  The first is for when the electricity is on and everything is normal except that for some reason the boiler has exceeded 200 degrees F (or so).  In this case an aquastat on the boiler tricks out the room thermostat in your largest heating zone (typically) and dumps heat into that zone regardless of the room temperature.  This zone could be your living room hot water baseboard, a Modine-type heater in your garage or even a radiant slab.
> 
> The second type of dump zone is for when the electrical power fails.  The fan on the boiler shuts off (assuming the boiler has a fan) so the fire tends to damp down to low output, but because your pumps also quit, no heat is able to move away from the boiler and the boiler temp can creep up.  With most boilers a simple gravity dump zone (thermo-siphon) can be installed above the boiler.  The only thing in this simple loop made up of a supply line, several lengths of fin-tube plumbed in parallel, and a return to the boiler, is a zone valve that is held CLOSED by electricity.  When the power fails, the zone valve opens and the thermo-siphon starts and keeps the boiler from over heating.  HOWEVER, my understanding is that, because of the huge amount of thermal energy stored in the very large thermal mass of a Seaton-type boiler like the Greenwood that this type of gravity dump zone will not be adequate for this type of boiler.  There is simply too much energy stored in the thermal mass, at too high a temperature, to dissipate via gravity flow through one inch lines and some fin-tube.  As such, it is my understanding that this type of boiler needs an automatic back-up generator or battery back-up (UPS) to power an active (pumped) dump zone.




Got it Chris Thankyou....next winter when I start up the GW again my added Hydronic second floor coil will be designed to serve as my heat dump.....I already have the Stove defender to keep the GW pump circulating if the power goes out, I will add a few more batteries and put the Hydronic loop on the battery backup .....that should do the job...I will also lower the Buderus setting even further so the overlap of oil and wood is less likely....


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> How come it didn't come on during your boil over?



When the boil over OCCURED there was no power loss, the GW damper was closed and the pump was circulating. I know it's hard to picture without seeing the piping etc....I am using a 65 Gallon super store indirect as a heat exchanger...I am only guessing here but I think the Super Store had so much heat that the GW loop was not dropping temp at all...it was returning hot because the SS tank was hot....Again there was no power loss at the time...I think I overloaded the GW and the oil fired to closely ...I have since lowered the Aquastat on the oil....


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## Fred61 (Mar 27, 2014)

I have an inverter for overheat and it will turn on the circulators whether line voltage is there or dropped out. If you use what you have there to it's full potential, you already have a dump zone.


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## maple1 (Mar 27, 2014)

I think for next year I would use more than the fan coil for dumping. I would use the zone with the biggest heat load on it. Or you could even plumb it in to all your zones - but that might need check valves to make sure your zones still function normally with no cross-flow.

If you have battery backup in place, that's good. Nothing beats redundancy. But you need to encorporate a zone valve in your new dump circuit, tied to an aquastat that will open that zone valve when temps get too hot. Like 190. That zone valve should then turn your circs on via its endswitch. To cover both a no-power event, and an overheat event with power, the zone valve should be a NO (normally open) one, and the aquastat should break on rise. That would cause the zone valve to open on either a power loss, or an overheat. Ideally the zone(s) used for dumping would have a layout conducive for good convection flow - but that might not be possible, and as mentioned above, that might not be enough to get the heat away from your boiler. Things get a little fuzzy for me trying to say more, as I have no experience at all with your battery backup setup, and exactly how they would tie together. I simply have a big UPS as part of my redundancy, my loading unit plugs into that.


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

maple1 said:


> I think for next year I would use more than the fan coil for dumping. I would use the zone with the biggest heat load on it. Or you could even plumb it in to all your zones - but that might need check valves to make sure your zones still function normally with no cross-flow.
> 
> If you have battery backup in place, that's good. Nothing beats redundancy. But you need to encorporate a zone valve in your new dump circuit, tied to an aquastat that will open that zone valve when temps get too hot. Like 190. That zone valve should then turn your circs on via its endswitch. To cover both a no-power event, and an overheat event with power, the zone valve should be a NO (normally open) one, and the aquastat should break on rise. That would cause the zone valve to open on either a power loss, or an overheat. Ideally the zone(s) used for dumping would have a layout conducive for good convection flow - but that might not be possible, and as mentioned above, that might not be enough to get the heat away from your boiler. Things get a little fuzzy for me trying to say more, as I have no experience at all with your battery backup setup, and exactly how they would tie together. I simply have a big UPS as part of my redundancy, my loading unit plugs into that.



I was thinking ( maybe incorrectly) that the fan coil would dissipate heat the quickest and the best...most of my place is radiant in slab....efficient by nature I assumed the fan blowing across the coil would return the coldest water back to the exchanger...part of the radiants efficiency is due in part to the thermal mass holding heat and returning water back at a higher temp....with this line of thinking wouldn't the coil be the best dump zone setup? Thanks...


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## maple1 (Mar 27, 2014)

Does the fan in/on the coil run in a power outage?

And, is storage a possibility?


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Does the fan in/on the coil run in a power outage?
> 
> And, is storage a possibility?



Good point....the fan over the coil would not run until my Generator is on.....No Automatic Transfer switch....Yes I am going to be adding 275 Gallons of storage over the summer....


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## GENECOP (Mar 27, 2014)

I could get a battery and inverter setup for the fan over the coil....what's the path of least resistance?


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## Fred61 (Mar 27, 2014)

Maple's post reminded me that you had said you were going to add a zone for the second floor and I gave you advice assuming you already had it installed. Radiant slab or heat exchanger with forced air really don't make for a reliable heat dump. Inverter running a furnace blower is not a good set-up. If you don't install that new zone the next best bet would be to build a fin tube manifold above the boiler.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 27, 2014)

GENECOP said:


> Good point....the fan over the coil would not run until my Generator is on.....No Automatic Transfer switch....Yes I am going to be adding 275 Gallons of storage over the summer....


Just don't use an old oil tank.........that has been tried and failed many many many times.  

What kind of temperature control does your slab have?  I'm all radiant slab 2200 square feet of it.  Other than a small CI radiator zone for our bedrooms upstairs.

I use a Taco mixing block for injection control, it's just a Tekmar controller with Taco pumps in a nice package.  I use mine on setpoint control and have a NC aquastat set to open at 190, it then adds a resistor in series with the radiant temp sensor and "fools" the controller into thinking the slab is cold and is upps the injection circulator to 100%.  This has worked well for 4 years now.

A fan-coil would need some significant batteries for an inverter to run it for the duration of a fire.

TS


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