# My Nyletherm Thread



## velvetfoot (May 9, 2014)

My Nyletherm came by FedEx yesterday.  It was nicely packed on a little pallet.  I happened to be in HD yesterday before unpacking and bought a bunch of stuff for plumbing it up, assuming it's 3/4".  Alas, it's not 3/4", so I'll be going back.  Will keep the crimping tool of course.   Put the unit on a dolly and moving it here and there.  I think the fan should be blowing out into the room.  Anyway, work in progress, and my first effort with PEX.


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## semipro (May 9, 2014)

Thanks for posting.  I'm interested in following this.  If my GeoSpring dies I'll likely buy one of these.


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## Where2 (May 9, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> My Nyletherm came by FedEx yesterday.  It was nicely packed on a little pallet.


Watching this thread... I've been debating the Geyser/Nyletherm/E-Tech HPWH route since the sunshine state has actually made using DIY solar thermal a permitting nightmare. A HPWH looks like a $40 WH permit...


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## velvetfoot (May 9, 2014)

Really?  I don't they do that even in NY.

A first observation:  The price of the doodads and geegaws to hook it up is not inconsequential.  My plan is to tie into the hot outlet pipe right after the Electric WH, because I had put in a heat trap and figured it wouldn't  hurt.  That means brass fittings, and stuff like 3/4" brass tees, and other stuff add up.

There are plugged water in and out fittings on the other side of the unit where the marked fittings are.  I'm going to ask Tom if it's okay to use them because it may be easier to route the pipe that way for me.

I plan to have the exhaust fan point out into the room and the intake facing the wall.  I think a factor with these units is finding a place to put them.

I didn't look inside the case yet, but the unit looks pretty rugged.


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## velvetfoot (May 10, 2014)

I installed the fittings and isolation valves.  I put together as much stuff as I could do away from the tank to make it easier.  No leaks.  I love when that happens.  Tom says its okay to use the alternate connections.  I have to put in the pex pipe and wire it up.  The wiring directions are less than complete wiring instructions-general schematics, yes.  Time for another note to Tom.  Here are some pictures of the non-leaking fittings (knock on wood).


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## Where2 (May 10, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> Really?  I don't think they do that even in NY.
> 
> A first observation:  The price of the doodads and geegaws to hook it up is not inconsequential... That means brass fittings, and stuff like 3/4" brass tees, and other stuff add up.
> 
> ...



Yes, really. The state certification process to certify the design and install my own PV system was another $250, above and beyond the ~$425 in local permits for actual inspections.

Yes, finding room to install a HPWH is a curious challenge. My DWH is nestled in the corner between my washer and dryer in a laundry alcove that is 5x7. To run a HPWH most efficiently, I'd really need to duct the output air into the bathroom on the other side of the wall. That simply adds complexity to the install process...

Nice to know the Nyletherm has multiple I/O port options.


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## velvetfoot (May 10, 2014)

An electric water heater is just about noiseless-this won't be, so that's something to think about.


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## Highbeam (May 10, 2014)

Very curious about the noise level. The noise is why i am stuck with resistance heating.

So did you go copper ring or ss clamp for the pex? I did some plumbing yesterday and noticed the ss rings are double the price of copper.


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## velvetfoot (May 11, 2014)

I'm totally with you there on the noise.  The resistance heater is silent.  It is located in the unfinished basement though, and the ceiling has insulation so maybe the noise won't be that bad.

I went copper ring.  That's something I noticed when I was looking at the two formats.  I have yet to use it.

On another note, I woke this morning and realized that I hooked up to hot instead of cold, so I took a short hot water outage this morning and switched the fittings with no problems.  I replaced the original image in an earlier post.  Duh.  

Still thinking through the electric.  Will swing by HD after the diner this morning, and THIS time I have a list.


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## Where2 (May 11, 2014)

I recognize it won't be noiseless. Being right off the kitchen, and open to the entire downstairs to listen to, I'm always curious how loud new owners consider them to be?
To my advantage, I do have a timer.  My current electric WH is run by a timer, and I would expand the schedule to cope with the slightly slower recovery time than my 1500W lower element currently provides.

I've tried to simulate the db level described in some of the technical documents. Realistically it's likely about as loud as my running dryer, I expect...


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## velvetfoot (May 11, 2014)

I would think that in Florida you'd be at an advantage as far as the thing won't freeze-you could put it in a garage and maybe duct the exhaust into the house.


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## Where2 (May 11, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I would think that in Florida you'd be at an advantage as far as the thing won't freeze-you could put it in a garage and maybe duct the exhaust into the house.


Yes I admit the supplemental cooling would be an advantage. My laundry area location would actually extract heat from solar heat gain on the south facing side of the house, in addition to residual heat gain from running the electric dryer, from cooking and heat I gain from the refrigerator. Drawing air from within a garage and intentionally pumping it into the house sounds like something that would be frowned upon by code. The number of people injured or killed by CO (carbon monoxide) from vehicles parked in garages and left running, always amazes me. After a hurricane comes through the news media always has to "remind" the public not to run their generators in an enclosed garage...

It may simply be a case where I have to buy it and live with it for awhile, then decide to remote mount the unit in the garage... Having more A/C capacity and dehumidification in the garage is never bad in FL.


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## velvetfoot (May 11, 2014)

Where2 said:


> sounds like something that would be frowned upon by code


True, for sure.  Brain fart on my part.


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## velvetfoot (May 12, 2014)

I finished hooking up the electric and plumbing.  Not sure if it works yet.  The bypass switch works and the fan is on, but no heat yet, then again, when I bypassed it, the Energy Detective did not show any big juice draw, so I hope it's just not cold enough.  I left both thermostats on 125.  The 'manual', which I have to say is poor, says something about putting the top one on 125 and the bottom on 120.  I risk the wrath of Mrs. Velvetfoot if it's too cold, so I'm going to leave it where it was at for now.  

For electric, I fished a wire down through the foam to the upper thermostat area and tied into a wire that goes to the lower thermostat that I removed from its terminal block on the upper thermostat.  I ran four wires (L1, L2, G, and T-the wire I talked about) over to a box on the wall, and from there over to the Nyletherm.  

I might drill a hole in the side panel to relocate the condensate hose to have a pump on the side for tidiness.  

I does make noise, but I'd have to listen real hard to hear it upstairs.  If you had a man cave downstairs, then that's another story.  However...it would discourage interlopers and there is such thing as headphones.  

Those four connections were the first PEX connections I ever made, and I have to say, I love it (as long as it holds together).

I'll put a couple more pictures up and will write when (if) it starts working.


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## velvetfoot (May 12, 2014)

Well, something's not right.  No red light, and the bypass switch works, which is good.  When power is applied, the fan runs for a while and then stops.  I noticed on the energy monitor a 4kw load came on, and I figure it's the upper element, but I can't be certain.  Fiddling with the lower thermostat didn't make the Nyletherm come on, but I don't know if it the element came on.  I'll try again with the monitor or a clamp on ammeter, read the troubleshooting page, and search some threads before contacting Tom.


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## velvetfoot (May 12, 2014)

I think I'm getting closer to the right track.  The Bypass switch didn't work after all-element did not come on.  Turns out I had L1 and L2 switched.  The compressor is on now.  The humidity in the basement seems to be going down, the pipe seems to be of a higher temperature-have to insulate.  No condensate though.


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## velvetfoot (May 12, 2014)

I think previous observations might have been placebo effect.  It's using watts though.


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## woodgeek (May 12, 2014)

how would swapping L1 and L2 affect things?


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## velvetfoot (May 12, 2014)

The terminals on the Nyletherm.  The thermostat is supposed to switch the Nyletherm.

The thing just seems to run and run at something like 900 watts.  If this is the way it's supposed to work, I'm not sure it's a money saver.  Except if it dehumidifies.  The air coming out is cooler.  I'll let it run overnight and insulate the lines tomorrow.  Maybe check the wiring again.


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## velvetfoot (May 12, 2014)

The compressor shut off and there was some condensate, so thinks might be working.


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## velvetfoot (May 14, 2014)

Seems to be working!  Collecting some condensate.  Runs for a while after taking a shower, but not incredibly long.  Have the lower thermostat at 125 and the upper a skootch below that, per Tom's recommendation.  Insulated the pex lines with the good stuff.  When the house is quiet, you can hear it run from the first floor but it's not bad at all.  Hard to tell what the dehumidification effect will be, but we don't use that much hot water.  My dehumidification needs are not great though-as long as the cold water pipes don't drip water and it doesn't get too stinky.


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## velvetfoot (May 14, 2014)

Oh, and thanks to Tom for all his help!


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## velvetfoot (May 16, 2014)

The dishwaher was turned on right before a shower.  A few minutes after the shower was over, the energy meter seemed to indicate the upper element came on.  I set the upper thermostat down more and will see how that goes.


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## Where2 (May 16, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I set the upper thermostat down more and will see how that goes.


From what I have been able to determine, my whirlpool "energy smart" water heater fires the upper element until the top of the tank is within 10°F of the set point, then drives the lower element to input the remaining heat. You might consider that as a reference point to work with.


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## john193 (May 17, 2014)

Just installed my geospring today.  Flipped the breaker to the "off" position on the oil boiler.  One thing I noticed is the hot water temperature is now more consistent.  With the oil boiler, you'd have to turn it up after a few minutes to match the temp you initially set it to.


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## velvetfoot (May 17, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> The dishwaher was turned on right before a shower.  A few minutes after the shower was over, the energy meter seemed to indicate the upper element came on.  I set the upper thermostat down more and will see how that goes.


It didn't go that well-client complaints.  Set both to 125 now.


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## woodgeek (May 17, 2014)

Congrats John193!  Stick it to the oil man and his oily friends.

The real fun is how much less AC you will need, not b/c of the cooling of the geospring, but because of the reduction in heat from the boiler. 

With my boiler, the summer usage was ~150 gallons, 120 of that was just wasted heat, and maybe 1500 kWh of electricity for the AC to pump it outside.


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## woodgeek (May 17, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> It didn't go that well-client complaints.  Set both to 125 now.



whats the gpm of your showerhead?  Use a timer to run the dishwasher at night?


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## velvetfoot (May 17, 2014)

Low flow.  I'm just gonna let it go where it is.  I have to tread lightly when it comes to heat/dhw experimentation.


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## john193 (May 17, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Congrats John193!  Stick it to the oil man and his oily friends.
> 
> The real fun is how much less AC you will need, not b/c of the cooling of the geospring, but because of the reduction in heat from the boiler.
> 
> With my boiler, the summer usage was ~150 gallons, 120 of that was just wasted heat, and maybe 1500 kWh of electricity for the AC to pump it outside.


Thanks it was exciting to kick the habit. I'm actually surprised of the amount of cold air the unit kicks out. The unit is in my unconditioned basement and I already feel that I will be using my dehumidifier less this year. The output air seems to be about 15F lower than the ambient air.

As a side note, the unit is quiet. Far quieter than my oil boiler.


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## mustash29 (May 19, 2014)

Great thread, however I am concerned.....

.....I would be weary of those "made in china" plumbing fittings.

Here at work, we use Grainger for automatically re-stocking our consumables.  There was an alert that came out a few months ago that stated we were not to use any of the "china" brass/bronze fittings on ANY potable water system because there was a possibility that the fittings did not meet the "no lead" standards.

Just make sure you are using good quality parts on your DHW & potable water systems.


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## begreen (May 19, 2014)

I am not a China basher, but I sincerely feel that their plumbing products in our infrastructure is a set up for serious problems. I have had a few expensive failures already and now will do whatever it takes to keep them out of our plumbing.


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## velvetfoot (May 20, 2014)

I used fittings from the HD and Lowes.  They were in little plastic bags that said they were lead free.  I believe they were by Watts.  They are made in China.


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## Highbeam (May 21, 2014)

A little lead content in the brass won't kill you. This lead free requirement is very new and to worry about it now would mean you should worry about replacing every other fitting in the supply. I worry more about low quality chinese stuff leaking or failing after installation.


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## Viewfinder (May 21, 2014)

I noticed in one of your pictures that you had an orange 10 gauge wire feeding a junction box. From that junction box there are two BX cables going out to what I assume is the both the electric water heater and the Nyletherm. If they are wired to a common breaker what happens when both the electric elements and the Nyletherm are calling for power? Overload?


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## velvetfoot (May 21, 2014)

The lower element is replaced by the Nyletherm.


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## smwilliamson (May 21, 2014)

Installed my Nyleatherm last month. Collecting about a gallon of water a day. I'm running mine with the lower heating element disabled. So if the kids run the shower down to cold...well the unit will most likely frost up and be idle for a while. We have a 56 gallon tank and so far, no cold shower with a family of 4. First month electric bill dropped from 285 to 106 cause wee not using any heating elements in the tank and the duhumidifier is gone. So far I'm pretty impressed. Yeah, like a dummy I ran the pex tubes over the power supply line. Didn't realize until I crimped the ends. Oh well, fix it some day.


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## smwilliamson (May 21, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> The lower element is replaced by the Nyletherm.


Actually, if wired by the instructions, the lower element is relayed through the nyle. In a frost situation where the nyle shuts down the lower element will come on until the nyle thaws out. In my install I did bypass it just to see if I could get along with out it. So far so good.


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## semipro (May 21, 2014)

john193 said:


> As a side note, the unit is quiet. Far quieter than my oil boiler.


I can't help but wonder if the newer generation of GeoSprings (red top) are quieter than the first (blue top)?
I moved our 1st gen GeoSpring recently and took the opportunity to clean it.  There are 2 "muffin" type DC fans of rather small diameter which may explain the noise.  I can't help but think that that a centrifugal (squirrel cage) blower would work much better on these. 
As a side note I'd recommend that 1st gen owners remove the plastic top clamshell and clean their unit regularly.  A lot of detritus had made its way through the filter and into the heat exchanger.


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## john193 (May 21, 2014)

Semipro, the fan design may have something to do with it. The red top model has a single fan. I'm guessing 8 to 10 inches in diameter. 

Mine is in my furnace room in my unconditioned basement. With the door shut I cannot hear it. When running is is no louder than my frigidaire dehumidifier. It has that characteristic hum, but it isn't over bearing by any mean. I'm actually more surprised how quickly the heat pump dehumidifies and cools the surrounding space. I've had mine running for 6 days now, completely negligible on my electric consumption (though it's just me and the mrs). The unit doesn't even turn on to recover heat after I shower but does run about 1.5 to 2 hours after her. It's set on hybrid only @ 125F.


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## velvetfoot (May 21, 2014)

smwilliamson said:


> Actually, if wired by the instructions, the lower element is relayed through the nyle. In a frost situation where the nyle shuts down the lower element will come on until the nyle thaws out. In my install I did bypass it just to see if I could get along with out it. So far so good.


I didn't realize that.  You still have the upper element?


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## velvetfoot (May 21, 2014)

Here is a link to the manual, for what it's worth:  http://www.heatingstuffllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/NylethermManual2.pdf


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## smwilliamson (May 21, 2014)

velvetfoot said:


> I didn't realize that.  You still have the upper element?


Yes, upper is still there but I haven't seen the light kick on. I checked when the water started running cold. Either my indicator light is malfunctioned or the upper element is bunk. I should do a resistance check on it but it's all sealed up now. And I'm kinda busy.


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## velvetfoot (May 25, 2014)

While waiting around this morning til it gets to be a respectable hour for chainsawing, I noted that after my morning shower, the unit ran for about an hour at 700 watts or so, shut off momentarily, and then ran fan-only for 10 minutes or so at about 60 watts.  Both thermos are set at 125.  I'm gonna measure the water temp from the faucet at some point.  I wonder if my outside thermometer goes that high..


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2014)

I don't suppose anyone on here is planning a trip from Maine to NS anytime soon, and would like to bring me one of these? 

I'll even buy you dinner & beers when you get here.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm going to try an estimated 130f.  Client grumbling, but maybe if it runs more it will take more water out of the air.  I'll give it a whirl anyway.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 13, 2014)

Still seems to run an hour after average shower.  Quick recovery element doesn't come on.  Client happy.


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## maple1 (Jun 13, 2014)

Do you have any temp guages on any of your DHW things?

I'm thisclose to taking the Nyletherm plunge - just wish shipping to north of the border wasn't quite so costly.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 13, 2014)

No temp gauges, just the thermostats on the electric water heater.

I just put in a condensate pump.  Little Giant.  I used vinyl tubing, 3/8" I think.  What's not great is that it was on a roll and got flattened towards the end.  I ran some water through it a few times and it seems to work okay anyway.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 1, 2014)

Got electric bill for June:
316 kwh for 28 days = 11.3 kwh/day.  utility and customer readings.
Last June
350 kwh for 28 days = 12.5 kwh/day.  utility and customer readings.

They're both comparable, so it looks like I'm saving some energy.  Plus, even though the humidity down in the basement gets in the 80's, there still is no condensation on the pipes.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 2, 2014)

Condensation on pipes.  Started conventional dehumidifier.  Had some standing water in a container from a project, but it's been humid.  Should break tonight.


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