# Wood Gun vs Econburn



## heat4steve (Aug 13, 2009)

First, I have no experience heating with wood to put things in perspective.  I am deciding between the wood gun and the econburn.  The wood gun seems to be better construction and boast that it can completely shutoff and a a result there is no need for thermal storage.  In addition the wood gun does not require as dyr wood content as the econburn.  Both units are pricey about $8000 for 150k BTU/hr (carbon steel only) although there are equivalent tax (1500) rebates.   Any one have an opinion, recommendation, or experience that could help me with my desicion.  Thanks


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## stee6043 (Aug 13, 2009)

Any reason you're excluding Tarm and EKO from your list?  Not to further confuse....just wondering.

I haven't heard many bad things about either boiler on this site.  But I think in general you'll find more support for the Econoburn.  I could be wrong, however....


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## muncybob (Aug 13, 2009)

I have never seen an Econoburn in person but have heard/read many good things about them. I recently bought a Wood Gun SS oil/wood boiler (to replace my old oil boiler) to avoid having chimney construction work done. Not installed yet but I can tell you it is built like a tank and weighs a lot! It relies more on mechanical functions as compared to some units that are very electrical for control and it seems most of the parts are available from most any heating/plumbing supplier. If I had a second chimney available I may have made a different decision...but my choices were limited.


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## heat4steve (Aug 13, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Any reason you're excluding Tarm and EKO from your list?  Not to further confuse....just wondering.
> 
> I haven't heard many bad things about either boiler on this site.  But I think in general you'll find more support for the Econoburn.  I could be wrong, however....



Reply to Stee6043

I actuallly was able to see these units which which provides me comfort when spending this type of money.   Is there a cost savings with the TARM or the EKO or some other advantage?  I have received mixed information on the EKO and was told that neither of these units qualify for the $1500 goverment tax credit.

Thanks for your help


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## heat4steve (Aug 13, 2009)

muncybob said:
			
		

> I have never seen an Econoburn in person but have heard/read many good things about them. I recently bought a Wood Gun SS oil/wood boiler (to replace my old oil boiler) to avoid having chimney construction work done. Not installed yet but I can tell you it is built like a tank and weighs a lot! It relies more on mechanical functions as compared to some units that are very electrical for control and it seems most of the parts are available from most any heating/plumbing supplier. If I had a second chimney available I may have made a different decision...but my choices were limited.



Reply to muncybob.

I agree the Wood Fun is well built - seems better design and construction than the Econburn.  However, the warranty for the Econburn is 25 years whcih is better then the WG at 20 years with SS and 6 years with Carbon Steel.  What would your decision be if you had a chimney available.


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## muncybob (Aug 13, 2009)

heat4steve said:
			
		

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I probably would have made a point to see an Econoburn in person...for that matter I probably would have wanted to see several others as well. But my choices were limited to a combo oil/wood unit. The Atmos was going to be too tall and the Tarm seems to be more dependant on drier wood and seems it would much prefer "storage". I will know after this winter if I made the right choice as I would prefer not to put in storage due to space limitations and $$$ and looks like a lot of the wood I'll be burning this year will be 25-30% moisture content. WG says neither of these situations is a problem for their unit...we'll see! It does feel decent to buy US made(PA at that!) and it does qualify for the tax credit.


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## Gooserider (Aug 14, 2009)

I have not heard anything particularly "bad" about either Econoburn or Wood Gun, but if I were making a purchase decision right now, I'd be somewhat more inclined towards Econoburn...  Some of the stuff on the Wood Gun website (which is a very large and overall well done site) strikes me as a bit "snake-oil" flavored...  Maybe it isn't but it's hard to tell from a distance, but I don't buy the "no storage" requirement, or the lower moisture wood claim...  There were other aspects that seemed a bit puzzling like the very unclear suggestion that it might be OK to side vent the Wood Gun, w/ no data on what would be required to do so.

I sent e-mail to the WG folks asking about some of this, and never got a reply...  Econoburn has a couple of folks that post here quite regularly, and seem a bit more responsive.

I also like that the Econoburn doesn't seem to have as much of a footprint requirement, as it doesn't have that extra ash separator hanging off the side, and it looks like they might not need as much room for maintainance access at the rear...  The other thing I like about the Econoburn is that I have a bit of a preference for having the combustion fans on the intake side rather than the exhaust - I can't see how exposing the fan to the elevated heat and combustion products of the exhaust side would help it's reliabilty.   This may not be an issue, but it still seems better to lower the stress on the fan if possible...

The downside of the Econoburn is that it needs an 8" flue...  If I put in a gasser, I'd need to replace the existing gas furnace chimney with Class A, but given the existing stack is 6", it would be a lot easier if the replacement were the same size, so as to minimize the amount of hassle in doing the changeover.  (I believe 6" Class A has about the same OD as the existing insulated gas chimney)

Gooserider


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## muncybob (Aug 14, 2009)

Flue size of 6" was a factor in my decision to buy the WG. The storage claim is yet to be proven this heating season but I did speak with 2 owners of the WG(1 had an older model and the other was a recent model) and neither had storage and both seemed satisfied with the performance and wood consumption level. I must also state that the sales dept was slow in any responses before the purchase but I did call "tech support" yesterday and he returned my call within a few hours. You do need 3' clearance in the rear for access/cleaning purposes.


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## Duetech (Aug 14, 2009)

30% moisture wood will burn but in short time you will be able to guarantee it is not as efficient as lower moisture wood. If you do a burn comparison of 30% vs 20% you will find the 20% delivers more heat in less time. The 20% will tend to produce little or no crosote because of a hotter fire.


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## Piker (Aug 14, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> The downside of the Econoburn is that it needs an 8" flue...  If I put in a gasser, I'd need to replace the existing gas furnace chimney with Class A, but given the existing stack is 6", it would be a lot easier if the replacement were the same size, so as to minimize the amount of hassle in doing the changeover.  (I believe 6" Class A has about the same OD as the existing insulated gas chimney)
> 
> Gooserider



Stack size on the EBW100 and EBW150 boilers can generally be reduced to 6" given proper draft.   They keep the stack sizes on the boilers the same to increase manufacturing efficiency only.

cheers


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## Gooserider (Aug 14, 2009)

Piker said:
			
		

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That is good to hear, I hope that it is specified in the manual someplace, as I know that the inspectors in MA, and I suspect most other places are going to look for a stack that matches the appliance outlet unless the manual specifically says you can reduce it down...  It might also be good to put a footnote to that effect on the website spec page - IMHO flue size can be a significant decision factor for those of us with small existing flues, or even in new builds given the often sizeable cost difference between 6" and 8" Class A pipe...  (but I've never heard of a boiler getting rejected for having to small of a stack capacity...)

As a side note, one of the things I've noticed as a major difference between the boiler makers and the wood stove industries is the online availability of the installation / owners manuals...  I can't think of ANY stove makers where I've looked for a manual, and not easily found an online link to a PDF of the manual - and in my efforts to help folks out, I've looked at more than a few of them...

OTOH, access to the boiler manuals seems to be far less available...  Spot checking websites, I've found the following...

Econoburn - NO 
Wood Gun - NO
AHONA / Eco-Orlan - *YES for PAXO*, exerpts only for EKO, no for Biomax
BioHeat - NO (Tarm, Froling, Scandia)
ATMOS - No, but lots of installation details on website

Thus out of about *SEVEN* different boiler brands, I was only able to quickly find the manuals for *ONE*...  (this isn't to say they weren't available, but if they were it wasn't obvious where they were)

IMHO it would be an advantage to customers to be able to download manuals for the boilers of interest and see how the details compared...  I know I can make a first pass filter on the web page specs, though that has possible issues as you just showed, but it would help to see the manuals to look at what the "gotchas" are that might help narrow the choices down...

Gooserider


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## stee6043 (Aug 14, 2009)

Ahona is your source for Paxo, New Horizon is your source for EKO.  All you could ever want is at the website below....

http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/eko.php


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## pybyr (Aug 15, 2009)

I have an Econoburn 150, and I have been very pleased with the quality of design, construction, and support from the company.


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## Gooserider (Aug 15, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Ahona is your source for Paxo, New Horizon is your source for EKO.  All you could ever want is at the website below....
> 
> http://www.newhorizoncorp.com/eko.php



Thanks for the pointers Stee..  New Horizon does a pretty good job of putting their manuals on line, all three of their gasifier lines have manuals posted, though one could possibly make rude comments about the quality of the english translations of the BioMax and Attack DP manuals, especially the latter.  The EKO manual is pretty good in that regard.  However my assumption is that the importer doesn't necessarily do the manuals, so I won't count that against them....  

My corrected manual list...

Econoburn - NO 
Wood Gun - NO 
AHONA / Eco-Orlan - YES for PAXO,(exerpts only for EKO, no for Biomax )
BioHeat - NO (Tarm, Froling, Scandia) 
ATMOS - No, but lots of installation details on website
New Horizon - Yes for  EKO, BioMax, Attack DP manuals

Revised score...  NINE boiler lines, FOUR manuals readily available on line.

Gooserider


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## Singed Eyebrows (Aug 15, 2009)

Zenon at New Horizon is a very knowlegeable person to deal with. My thoughts on WG are well known on this site, this is a great boiler & in stainless maybe the last one you ever need to buy. The one issue I have with WG is that they(Patrick) will tell you over the phone that their boiler will power vent right out a basement window. In my experience there is no way you will get this in writing though(it sure isn't in their install manual). Or as GR discovered, no reply here to info. request. Tarm is a great boiler from everything I've read, one of the best boilers you can buy. EKO is very well made & the only real issue I read about is gasket sealing problems. I don't think an Econoburn is in the same league as the WG, carbon steel to carbon steel, this is just my novice opinion. My suggestion is to talk to the dealers, Rich at CGH is also a great guy to deal with. For sheer ruggedness I like the WG for a more high tech better controlled more efficient boiler I like the Tarm, Randy


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## Fred61 (Aug 15, 2009)

I had a carbon steel 140 Wood Gun several years ago. Ran it for 10 years and then sent it to the junkyard. I was glad to see it go after many frustrating experiences with the beast over the years. The final problem that sent it away was the leaky loading chamber. After getting a welder in three or four times to patch several leaks I decided to rid myself of the unit after seeing weeping in several places on the walls of the chamber. 

It ate a set of ceramic center brick nozzles a year which at that time were costing $200.00 a set. I was continually repairing door gaskets throughout the heating season. That baby has several feet of door seals with the number and size of doors it has. 

I don't know if they have changed the controls in recent years. It was run with a pair of aquastats. When it ran out of wood the fan would continue to run, sucking in cold outside air, quickly cooling the unit, then when it got down to where the oil aquastat kicked in the oil would bring the boiler temp back up but the next time the boiler called for heat the wood aquastat would kick in and again draw cold outside air through the unit quickly cooling it until the oil burner kicked in. I overcame this problem by building a controller that locked the system in oil mode until I released it manually. When it was in oil mode it was very inefficient. If I were to do it over (which I wouldn't) I would get the unit without the oil and find some other means of back-up.

As for using the unit without a chimney, I wonder if that could present some danger. I had about 15 feet of chimney and there was still sparks coming out of it. The asphalt shingles were burned four feet in all directions.


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## heat4steve (Aug 15, 2009)

Piker said:
			
		

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Reply to Gooserider:

I can only insert a 6" (8"OD) double wall vent in my 30' chimney. How would one determine if the draft is sufficient?  As an alternative, could the chimney be used as is without fear of cresote buildup or fire?

Thanks


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## heat4steve (Aug 15, 2009)

pybyr said:
			
		

> I have an Econoburn 150, and I have been very pleased with the quality of design, construction, and support from the company.



Reply to Pyro:

Can your econoburn turn completely off or is it necessary to use thermal storage with the boiler?  Also how do you vent?  I am trying to figure out what I will need to install.

Thanks


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## heat4steve (Aug 15, 2009)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Zenon at New Horizon is a very knowlegeable person to deal with. My thoughts on WG are well known on this site, this is a great boiler & in stainless maybe the last one you ever need to buy. The one issue I have with WG is that they(Patrick) will tell you over the phone that their boiler will power vent right out a basement window. In my experience there is no way you will get this in writing though(it sure isn't in their install manual). Or as GR discovered, no reply here to info. request. Tarm is a great boiler from everything I've read, one of the best boilers you can buy. EKO is very well made & the only real issue I read about is gasket sealing problems. I don't think an Econoburn is in the same league as the WG, carbon steel to carbon steel, this is just my novice opinion. My suggestion is to talk to the dealers, Rich at CGH is also a great guy to deal with. For sheer ruggedness I like the WG for a more high tech better controlled more efficient boiler I like the Tarm, Randy



I was looking for a unit that qualifies for the $1500 tax rebate. Could provide the link for CGH?  I will check with Rich.

Thanks


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## muncybob (Aug 15, 2009)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> I had a carbon steel 140 Wood Gun several years ago. Ran it for 10 years and then sent it to the junkyard. I was glad to see it go after many frustrating experiences with the beast over the years. The final problem that sent it away was the leaky loading chamber. After getting a welder in three or four times to patch several leaks I decided to rid myself of the unit after seeing weeping in several places on the walls of the chamber.
> 
> It ate a set of ceramic center brick nozzles a year which at that time were costing $200.00 a set. I was continually repairing door gaskets throughout the heating season. That baby has several feet of door seals with the number and size of doors it has.
> 
> ...



The oil/wood Wood Gun will go to the oil burner if set in "auto" and it will lock out at that point. You must manually reset the control to "wood" in order to burn wood again. So essentially they have automated your manual process.  WG admits they had several design problems in previous models that they state they have overcome...I certainly hope so! I would not have bought the WG if I had not spoken to 2 owners running their product for the last 5 years and they were very positive....one was carbon steel and the other was SS. I was told the center ceramics should last 4+ years if the unit is run as it should be?


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## willworkforwood (Aug 15, 2009)

heat4steve,
I posted my EBW-150 experience in one of your earlier threads, so no need to repeat that. I also a friend who's owned an Wood gun for 20 years, and has nothing but good things to say about it.  And there isn't much negative stuff to be found on Hearth about the other boiler makes mentioned in this thread either.  But what did catch my attention in this thread is your first sentence - "I have no experience heating with wood".  I'm taking "no experience" literally, and wanted to give you a heads-up on this.  Heating with wood involves time and work. All of the folks on this forum have varying degrees of this - I'm on one far end of the spectrum, cutting on my property, splitting with a maul, and hauling with a wheelbarrow.  At the other end  are those that buy seasoned wood, c/s/d/s.  But even there, the boiler needs to be regularly loaded and monitored.  The reason I'm saying this, is that you need to be fully committed to providing whatever amount of time and work your situation will need, or else you may become resentful of how the big beast has changed your life style (I'm not, btw).  The other important thing is this year's wood supply - do you have 4-6 cord of well-seasoned wood set to go ?  If not, you may be in for a disappointing first year.  Finding good, seasoned wood now, without taking out a second mortgage, is going to be tough.  And, if you try to burn green wood, you will be a very unhappy camper.  I don't want to sound negative on this, but wood boilers are a huge project, and I think it's important for those of us with experience to let you know what's coming up.  In any case, best of luck with it !


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## pybyr (Aug 15, 2009)

heat4steve said:
			
		

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Venting is by way of a run of 8 inch metal smoke pipe to a masonry chimney with 8 inch flue.

I wouldn't say that you could "turn it completely off"-- you really can't do that very well with any device that burns solid wood-- but on the other hand, storage is not necessarily mandatory.   

I went from January 2009 through the end of the heating season and did not have my storage up and running yet-- it worked well, although in my case, I tended to run hot burns and then simply let it burn out- that maximized efficiency (and with my house having old post and beam and plaster construction, it sort of served as its own thermal mass for heat storage.  Storage will make an already good thing even better.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Aug 15, 2009)

Steve; If you do a Google search on Connecticut Green Heat you will find Rich. He is also on Ebay. There are many good boiler dealers & as one Moderator said, he hasn't run into one bad one in the bunch. One important point with the WG is that I believe it is the only boiler that you can self install & have a long warrantee(exception is possibly Garn). Fred had a bad experience with his WG & at that time he wasn't the only one. This was a long time ago. Seals have been improved. The carbon steel WG must go into an airtite idle or it will corrode. I believe the efficiency on my Atmos is going to be down from some of the others however Zenon pointed out that controlling blower speed will keep flue gas temps down. Atmos is still an excellent boiler & one you might want to consider, it doesn't have a firetube exchanger though as I mentioned before, Randy


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## altheating (Aug 15, 2009)

The Econoburn can be self installed, but you will have to have a dealer come out and give you the "start up tour" and sign off on your install to validate the warranty. Most dealers will charge for this but after spending whatever amount on the new boiler it is just a drop in the bucket to get the 25 year warranty.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Aug 15, 2009)

Then this is new. I talked to Econoburn directly about a year ago & they said absolutly no warrantee on a self install. This was the same deal with Froling & Tarm from I think it was Bioheat. Whatever warrantee you have or think you have it sure needs to be in writing. This would be a good deal to be able to just pay the dealer to validate the install, Randy


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## Fred61 (Aug 16, 2009)

muncybob said:
			
		

> I was told the center ceramics should last 4+ years if the unit is run as it should be?



I wasn't told how log the center bricks would last and I wasn't knoledgable enough to ask, but mine only lasted one year. How can you run the unit "as it should be"? In other words what would an operator do to wear out the center bricks?


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## dogwood (Aug 16, 2009)

Singed Eyebrows, not only will BioHeat not warranty a self install, but I was told last week I had to fly the installer to New Hampshire to go to a installation training session before they could sell me a Froeling boiler. What do you think that would cost, if you lived a long way away at what plumbers charge, on top of a round trip plane ticket. You think it would be difficult enough for them to find customers to pony up the 12-13 thousand dollars the thing costs in the first place. Maybe they don't want to sell the boilers. Never thought I'd have any sort of trouble spending that sort of money. 

The salesman said he'd call me back to see if any exception could be worked out because of the distance, but never called back. Whatever happened to customer service. I think I'll go back to getting a Solo Innova unit. They are less costly and seem to get good reviews. Just venting here. Least I got a bargain on some 140 feet of 1.5 inch black pipe, and have an 86 gallon Amtrol/Extrol expansion coming in next week. And got a 22 ton Huskee log splitter and a new Stihl 361 chainsaw. Life is good. Making progress on this project, but still bumps in the road. The Econoburn dealer inspection of self installs to make the warranty good seems like just the ticket to eliminate plumber labor costs. Might have to rethink which boiler to get entirely. Thanks for that bit of information on dealer inspections of Econoburn self installs Altheating.

Mike


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## muncybob (Aug 16, 2009)

Fred61 said:
			
		

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Fred, I think they were just referring to burning suitable wood, regular cleaning, etc.


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 16, 2009)

Just as a point of interest, I believe Wood Gun is the only gasifier on the market that can be used in steam systems. I don't know if they make a separate steamer, of if it's just a modification of the existing design. For that matter I think it's the only wood-fired steamer on the market, gasifier or not. Maybe Patrick can comment on that. I'm sure he's following this thread.

I have no idea of how well it works. But that's quite an accomplishment, considering that it's really difficult to convert a steam system to hot water. Not worth it, in most heating professionals' opinion.


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## Piker (Aug 17, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

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The Econoburn manual states that a different cross section of flu pipe is viable as long as proper draft is maintained.  

cheers


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## Singed Eyebrows (Aug 17, 2009)

Mike/Dogwood; If the Froling is that finiky that a regular plumber can't be trusted to install it I wonder why they even brought it over. Compare that to a Wood Gun that you just hook up & throw wood in it. Apparently Bioheat feels that some people will pay any amount of money for a high tech Lamda boiler. Good luck with your search & install. I also got a good deal on 1 1/2" used sprinkler black pipe that is like new. I hear a lot of good things about the Solo Inova boiler, Randy


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## Chris Hoskin (Aug 17, 2009)

hi all, just wanted to share a few things:

The requirement that a Fröling boiler can only be purchased through select, trained dealers has nothing to do with the installation requirements of the boiler.  Like any boiler it has to be put together correctly, of course, and the programming on the control panel requires a thorough read of the manual.  However, none of this is beyond a competent heating contractor.  The trained dealer requirement is one imposed on us by Fröling.

Their experience, and ours, is that the vast majority of times there is a problem with a boiler not operating correctly or as expected, it comes back to an installation error.  We have lots of drawings that are available on our web site and are included with every boiler's manual.  These drawings have been worked out over many years and, while we are always interested in improving them, we know they work.  Despite this, contractors frequently second guess or misread the drawings:

"there's something wrong with the boiler you sold me"
"which drawing did you follow?"
"Solo 2 from page 61 of the manual"
"OK, is the ball valve labeled 'I' on the drawing part way closed"
"ummm...which ball valve is that?"
"the one just above the Termovar valve"
"umm...thermo - what?"

And so it goes.  

Fröling is new to this market and is very concerned about maintaining the value of their brand and their reputation.  By requiring dealers to receive training prior to selling and installing the boilers the "something's wrong with your boiler" conversations are kept to a minimum and, more importantly the end user has a positive experience.  So, as a sales guy it hurts me to limit our sales this way, but as far as long term benefit to Fröling, BHUSA and the end user, it is surely the right way to go.  A more conservative approach than some might take, but a style that's served us well for thirty years.

Second, Gooserider, you are right that our manuals are not available on line.  They are all about 75 pages with lots of photos and images so files are pretty big.  At each boilers web page, however, you can download a six page "Boiler Data Sheet" that gives you the most pertinent information regarding specs.  As well you can download our plumbing schematics to allow you to choose the most appropriate approach for your particular situation.  Lastly, if someone wants a copy of the manual we can email the file or sell them a hard copy for $20.00.

hope this clarifies some things.  Best from Lyme, Chris.


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## Gooserider (Aug 17, 2009)

BioHeat Sales Guy said:
			
		

> hi all, just wanted to share a few things:
> 
> The requirement that a Fröling boiler can only be purchased through select, trained dealers has nothing to do with the installation requirements of the boiler.  Like any boiler it has to be put together correctly, of course, and the programming on the control panel requires a thorough read of the manual.  However, none of this is beyond a competent heating contractor.  The trained dealer requirement is one imposed on us by Fröling.
> 
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Thanks for the explanation Chris, but IMHO it does seem a bit of a push on things...  I understand the concerns Froling has about their product reputation and proper install, but it seems they are a bit over the top in the requirement - perhaps you could talk them into something like requiring the installer to submit a proposed piping diagram beforehand, and getting an approval, followed by a signoff (maybe by the code guy?) that the actual plumbing matches the approved diagram?  It does seem like requiring a customer to fly the installer to a training class is excessive (if true) perhaps there can be some happy medium...

As to the manuals - spec sheets are good, but I like the manuals better, and there is no real substitute...  I've found they often have details that can be significant, but which aren't in the specs - things like exactly what one needs to do for maintainance, details on how to operate, or other questions of that sort...  I'm sure the files are big, but in these days of low cost bandwidth and cheap storage, file size is hardly a reason to hesitate - I know I recently purchased a 1.5TB drive for my home system for under $200, and that Bluehost will put up an unlimited size / unlimited transfer website for $6.95 / month....

At any rate, thanks for the explanation and your being willing to participate here on the forums.

Gooserider


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 17, 2009)

That's one problem with dealing with foreign suppliers--they are often used to completely different standards and practices in their own countries, and have trouble adjusting to the realities in other places. I know from dealing with European forest machine companies, there's no substitute for establishing an office/shop on this side the the Atlantic, then having one of their people live here, manage the place and help set policy. Because it's going to be different. It has to be. The manager needs the authority to do things differently--to essentially shape the U.S. Division to meet the expectations and needs of the marketplace. If not, your product has trouble competing.

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but EconoBurn used to have a policy that their boilers could only be installed by certified professionals for the warranty to be honored. A lot of people, including me, bought EKOs instead because we wanted to do the install ourselves. I can see their point and it's a valid one, but this particular market ain't playing the game that way. Ironically (and I can't speak for them), but I think this forum made the professional install requirement kind of a moot point. If you want to install the boiler yourself, join the Boiler Room and you can probably get all the information you need. That's something a marketing director or service manager sitting in an office in Germany wouldn't know--but an in-country manager sure would.

Chris, I'm curious: What is/was Tarm's policy? I know plenty of people who installed their own Tarms and I've never heard of a legitimate warranty claim being denied. Was that because TarmUSA backed it up?


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## stee6043 (Aug 17, 2009)

If you read the fine print in the New Horizon EKO warranty you will find this:

• This warranty shall be void if the boiler is installed by someone other than a professional contractor
/ installer experienced and qualified in hydronic heating systems.
• This warranty shall be void if the owner fails to have the boiler serviced or inspected at least once
every two years by a professional contractor / installer experienced and qualified in hydronic heating
systems.

I noticed it shortly before placing my order.  After reading the experiences on this website I decided to make the purchase in-spite of the warranty basically being thrown out the window...


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 17, 2009)

Guess I didn't read the warranty. I've had two warranty claims and Zenon took care of each one with no questions asked, even though he knows I did my own installation.


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## stee6043 (Aug 17, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Guess I didn't read the warranty. I've had two warranty claims and Zenon took care of each one with no questions asked, even though he knows I did my own installation.



That's great to know.  That being said....I haven't seen many (if any) threads on this site mentioning warranty repairs on any of the more popular brands.  So hopefully for most of us the warranty issue will never be a real concern.

I'm dealing with Zenon on an an issue with the new EKO draft fans and he seems to be very up-front.  It's as much about the people as it is the equipment when you deal with quality companies...


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## Gooserider (Aug 17, 2009)

My take on it is twofold...  

First off, I would tend to say that the weasel phrases in a lot of warranties are to give the company a clean "out" in cases of equipment abuse, or possibly a plain obnoxious customer...  Much easier to say "not installed by pro" than something like "damage due to condensation and improper firing"...  OTOH if it really IS a defect, then one just doesn't have to ask...

Secondly, to sound rather cynical, I suspect that posters on this forum, especially mods and heavy posters that have shown a certain level of knowhow will probably tend to get the "above and beyond" treatment just for public relations sake...  Think about how many people show up here asking "What should I buy?" questions - would any company that wanted to sell lots of boilers REALLY want such questions answered "Don't buy brand X, they don't stand behind their product..." 

Gooserider


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 18, 2009)

Good point, fo sho.


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## dogwood (Aug 18, 2009)

Chris from BioHeat, your salesman did not mention anything about trained dealers over the phone. He said I would need to send an installer to you in Lyme for training prior to our purchasing a Froeling unit. There are not any dealers down here in Virginia and you would be shipping the unit direct. I had called to get some questions answered on shipping arrangements when this training issue was broached. I can't fly someone up to Lyme to get a couple hours training. Its going to be hard enough to find someone to do the install as it is. I will have to go with plan B which is to get a Solo Innova. Was the salesman wrong about the required training? He should of at least called back as he said, which is common courtesy, not to mention good business practice. I'm three hours away fron Zenon's place in West Virginia and could easily get an EKO, but local inspectors want a UL listed product which the EKO is not, as far as I know, and for once in my life I wanted to get the best of something, which this site led me to believe the Froeling boiler is. There should be some way to work problems like this out. The people on this site do this for each other all the time for free, and you always seem to be helpful on your posts here. 

I would be happy to share my schematic, which is basically copped from one of yours, for pre-approval, and was planning to consult with your techs on anyway before installing. I have already found and downloaded a six page technical data sheet  and would very much like for you to have emailed to me the installation manuals for the Froeling 50 and Solo Innova 50 units, as I will get one of them. Hope you reply, or email me at oneillmj@ntelos.net. Thanks. Maybe the Dealer inspection signoff idea like Econoburn seem to be using would be workable, but I doubt you'd want to fly one of your folks down this way to do that. Come on, lets do some business. Winter is fast approaching. 

Mike


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## Singed Eyebrows (Aug 18, 2009)

Is it just me or is something really wrong here? How many hoops does Mike need to jump through to purchase this Wunder Boiler. Chris states that like any boiler it needs to be assembled correctly, what, it's shipped dissassembled from Germany? My $3000.00 Atmos was shipped assembled from Poland. Proper programming of the controller requires a thourough read of the manual, newsflash for Froling, most Americans can read. Chris needs to do what Froling says & I don't fault him for this. My complaint is of Froling & their idea that most Americans are too stupid to either install or operate their boiler. It could be worse, if this was KWB it would be X 3, they are picky. Froling is worried about it's good reputation(I'm sure it's a great boiler) & I don't know how much they are endearing themselves to other members, the're not doing much for me though, Randy


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## Como (Aug 18, 2009)

It is a good boiler, elsewhere they have a full dealer network, in the US they do not. Yet.

I enquired about the Pellet version, lot of change, noody mentioned that I also needed the additional cost of training by the installer.

Also looking at the KoB, if I can get anyone to tell me how much it costs. I will ask them about installation.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Aug 18, 2009)

Hi Durango; The Brits say a lot of good things about the Froling boiler hopefully Froling can rethink their marketing strategy so we don't lose this high tech boiler. There is a KWB boiler & a Koeb & Schaefer boiler with no USA dealers that I am aware of, haven't heard of a KOB. From what I have read on the UK forums KWB is as good as it gets. Check out the U-Tube videos, Randy/ I just did a Google search & it looks like there is a KWB & KOB both Austrian I believe.


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## Chris Hoskin (Aug 18, 2009)

yikes, this thread has really been hijacked, sorry about that.  I am running out of daylight here, so won't get a reply out today.  We have dealers in for training tomorrow, but I will try to respond to the issues brought up by the end of the day.  Just don't want folks to think I am ignoring them!  

One quick thing - sorry can't help myself - no one would expect a consumer to bear the cost of a dealer receiving training.  That is an investment that the dealer makes for his own long term benefit.

back to you shortly,

Chris


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## Wet1 (Aug 18, 2009)

BioHeat Sales Guy said:
			
		

> One quick thing - sorry can't help myself - no one would expect a consumer to bear the cost of a dealer receiving training.  That is an investment that the dealer makes for his own long term benefit.
> Chris



Someone has to pay for the cost... and at the end of the day it's almost always the consumer in one form or another.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Sep 4, 2009)

I've never run the EB nor the WG. When I was shopping a few years ago, I nearly bought the WG. If I were making the decision today, I wouldn't buy either. Nor would I buy a GreenWood. Oh, that's right, you can't buy a GW anymore.

A couple of stew Pid observations . . .

Buy the best unit you can afford that is right for your circumstances. Do NOT buy based on some stupid 1,500 credit. Seriously!! You trust the Govt to make your decision on a boiler???

Likewise, don't decide against a Fro because of their Europa ways. If the unit is better, last longer, runs more efficiently, how long are you gonna remember the initial hassle??

Oh, and about those 25 year warrenties. . . . :lol:  :zip: 

Jimbo


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## Paul (Sep 4, 2009)

When I was looking into the woodgun the thing that concerned me was the life span of the ceramic tubes that were the key to the units efficiency. I think they said it may need to be changed every 50+ cords of wood. Other than that I liked the unit as it did not have heat exchange tubes that could get coated with creosote if you burn unseasoned wood. Only the Eko had a cleaning system for these HX tubes which was a factor for my choice.


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## pybyr (Sep 4, 2009)

woodisgood said:
			
		

> When I was looking into the woodgun the thing that concerned me was the life span of the ceramic tubes that were the key to the units efficiency. I think they said it may need to be changed every 50+ cords of wood. Other than that I liked the unit as it did not have heat exchange tubes that could get coated with creosote if you burn unseasoned wood. Only the Eko had a cleaning system for these HX tubes which was a factor for my choice.



FYI, the Econoburns also have a handle on the side that moves the turbulators up and down to scrub the tubes.  Sounds as if you already have your EKO, so you're all set- just wanted to point this factor out to others who are still looking.

As to the WoodGun-Tarm-EKO-Econoburn-Froling discussion-- all seem like well engineered products in their own way, each with their own particular strengths or minor trade-offs.  Sort of like the endless pickup debates that some people over Chevy/ Ford/ Dodge/ Toyota- each has a few points that stand out over another, and a few points where something else stands out over them- pick which particular characteristics are most important to you and choose accordingly.


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## PatrickAHS (Sep 9, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I have not heard anything particularly "bad" about either Econoburn or Wood Gun, but if I were making a purchase decision right now, I'd be somewhat more inclined towards Econoburn...  Some of the stuff on the Wood Gun website (which is a very large and overall well done site) strikes me as a bit "snake-oil" flavored...  Maybe it isn't but it's hard to tell from a distance, but I don't buy the "no storage" requirement, or the lower moisture wood claim...  There were other aspects that seemed a bit puzzling like the very unclear suggestion that it might be OK to side vent the Wood Gun, w/ no data on what would be required to do so.
> 
> I sent e-mail to the WG folks asking about some of this, and never got a reply...  Econoburn has a couple of folks that post here quite regularly, and seem a bit more responsive.
> 
> ...



The proof is only in the pudding, or in the snake oil, just kidding.  However, we have hundreds of customers operating with no storage and no problem from it.  The same design that allows us to eliminate storage gives us a bit more leniency on moisture requirement.  Side vent is 100% do-able, as the Wood Gun is totally forced exhaust with no chimney draw requirements (but local codes could prohibit such an install).  Basically all these things come back to us having a true "off-cycle" as opposed to a down-cycle.


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## PatrickAHS (Sep 9, 2009)

muncybob said:
			
		

> Fred61 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The reality is that the bricks lifespan is going to depend on wood usage.  Some customers replace them every two years and some go as much as four.  I would suggest changing the bricks every 12-15 cords.


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## PatrickAHS (Sep 9, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> My take on it is twofold...
> 
> First off, I would tend to say that the weasel phrases in a lot of warranties are to give the company a clean "out" in cases of equipment abuse, or possibly a plain obnoxious customer...  Much easier to say "not installed by pro" than something like "damage due to condensation and improper firing"...  OTOH if it really IS a defect, then one just doesn't have to ask...
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more.  I have to say I have never worked for a company that stands behind its product like AHS does.  I personally have been on 25 hour roadtrips to take care of customers who had issues that absolutely had nothing to do with any fault of AHS.  Warranty is no good if you won't stand behind it.


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## Gooserider (Sep 14, 2009)

Glad to hear that WG stands behind their products Patrick, but I still find some of the website a bit hokey...  WG is not alone in this, but I really would like to see WG and the other boiler makers put their manuals online as PDF's so that one can get the "official" answers as to just what the product will need to be installed and keep the code guys happy...  (the stove makers do this, why can't the boiler people?) For instance, I know that our local guys tend to follow standard codes, UNLESS the manufacturer says something different in the install manual - thus he would probably prohibit a side vent install unless there were specific directions on it in the manual, in which case it might very well be OK if done to those specs...

Another item I haven't seen much on, which would need to be in the manual is what the detailed service and cleaning requirements would be, including what sort of space around the unit is required.  I know the units have that little ash cyclone thing on the side, but I didn't find any details about where that needs to be placed, and how much room it takes...

Gooserider


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## PatrickAHS (Sep 14, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Glad to hear that WG stands behind their products Patrick, but I still find some of the website a bit hokey...  WG is not alone in this, but I really would like to see WG and the other boiler makers put their manuals online as PDF's so that one can get the "official" answers as to just what the product will need to be installed and keep the code guys happy...  (the stove makers do this, why can't the boiler people?) For instance, I know that our local guys tend to follow standard codes, UNLESS the manufacturer says something different in the install manual - thus he would probably prohibit a side vent install unless there were specific directions on it in the manual, in which case it might very well be OK if done to those specs...
> 
> Another item I haven't seen much on, which would need to be in the manual is what the detailed service and cleaning requirements would be, including what sort of space around the unit is required.  I know the units have that little ash cyclone thing on the side, but I didn't find any details about where that needs to be placed, and how much room it takes...
> 
> Gooserider



This will all be fixed soon.


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## rsettgas (Sep 17, 2009)

I'm new as a poster here. Looks like a very active forum - congrats. I do occasional wood boiler installs along with my main focus of solar thermal systems and various "conventional" radiant & boiler work.

I installed a stainless WG for a client a couple years ago, tied into an existing LP boiler system. Don't have much to compare it to, but as others noted, seemed to be pretty well built. WG convinced my client that storage was not needed - I was skeptical. The one lesson learned was that the concept of no-storage does not work for everyone. My client had a well insulated house that even in a 9000+ DD climate did not require heat often enough from the WG to enable the fire to restart as the WG folks had told him it would. Result was that very often, including middle of night (of course), the WG would try to relight, fail, and the forced draft would be blowing cold air through the firebox over a dead fire. As you can imagine, sometimes it took my client a while to realize this was going on - and all the while the WoodGun was cooling itself off. Not a good scene and I'm sure you could rig some sort of override to cut out the forced draft after a certain period with no ignition, but in my mind, you shouldn't have to deal with that.

This system was in for just the last half of the first heating season, then the owner moved out of town and, sadly, the WG sits drained & unused as the current renter did not want to deal with the potential hassles around repeated fire (re)lighting. Can't say I'd be wild about it either.

I didn't hear WG's pitch for no-storage first hand, but this experience has added to my skepticism about the concept. I haven't searched this site for previous discussions of no-storage gasification installs, but I'd have to think there have been a few. At this point I'd be clearly on the pro-storage side of the fence.


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## Piker (Sep 17, 2009)

I cannot speak to every brand in the field, but I can tell you for certain that a downdraft gasser can be run without storage.  Do I recommend it?  Sure, in most cases it's acceptable... I have yet to have a customer install thermal storage in this neck of the woods... it's something that everyone seems to think is a great idea, but when it comes down to it, they just aren't willing to invest the extra capital to set it up... at least not right away.  Is it better to run with storage than without?  Absolutly... without a doubt.  

For customers who are running without storage, I always give explicit instructions about how and when to refuel the boiler.  It boils down to small hot fires in the upper chamber, and minimizing the length of the burn times when possible to increase efficiency.  The idea of being able to shut combustion air off completely has it's merits, but it seems evident that relighting after a long period of time could be an issue, especially if the wood load has been made excessively large in comparison to the heat load in an attempt to achieve long burn times, causing the off cycles to be very long.  To me, this sounds like a simple fix... and it goes back to reducing the quantity of wood in the firebox, thus reducing the output of the boiler and forcing us back into that small hot burn again... creating a situation where on/off cycling becomes more frequent and the risk of the fire going completely out becomes less... though with shorter overall burn times.

  Bottom line?  Burn times and efficiency are inversely proportional to each other... you just can't have both, at least not on any of the current wood boilers that I have seen.  With a standard downdraft, efficiency falls off as you oversize the firebox and increase burn times, though keeping the boiler lit for extended periods of time is not an issue... with a boiler that has the ability to shut combustion air off completely... efficiency is less of an issue but keeping the thing lit becomes the trick. 

Small hot fires are the key to solving most of the issues people have with wood boilers without thermal storage. That and dry wood. If we could all just move away from the "I want 12 hour burn times and I want to do it with green wood" ideas that have been ingrained into our psyche over the past 20 years by slick wood equipment dealers preying on folks' propensity to procrastinate, the world would be a better place.  Even if the boilers I sell were good at burning green wood, I would never use that as a selling point... it's counter-productive in the long run, and ultimately costs the customer more time and money.

One final thought.  There are a lot of different wood burning products on the market these days, some good, some not so good...   but they ALL have at least three things in common... and that's the inconsistency of the fuel, the inconsistency of the human beings using them, and the need to discover each model's little idiosyncrasies.  Burning wood is part science, part artform, and requires some finesse to do properly.  I suppose that even the guy burning tires and dead cattle in an outdoor boiler that's almost as big as the house he lives in could be considered art... abstract though it may be.   Each product or system out there will operate under a different set of parameters, and each will require a time of "figuring out" and "getting used to."

cheers


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## rsettgas (Sep 17, 2009)

Piker said:
			
		

> I cannot speak to every brand in the field, but I can tell you for certain that a downdraft gasser can be run without storage.  Do I recommend it?  Sure, in most cases it's acceptable... I have yet to have a customer install thermal storage in this neck of the woods... it's something that everyone seems to think is a great idea, but when it comes down to it, they just aren't willing to invest the extra capital to set it up... at least not right away.  Is it better to run with storage than without?  Absolutly... without a doubt.



fair enough. working in the solar field I can appreciate the challenge to investing money now in order to "do it right" and save in the long haul.

and I agree that completely burning small fires is probably the best way to match up with small heating loads if you have no storage. just leads to a bunch of labor that, were it me, I'd probably do everything I could to figure out how to afford some storage so I didn't have to babysit the boiler.


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## muncybob (Sep 17, 2009)

Great discussion and interesting reading. It would seem that there is a solution to most problematic matters if the user is willing to make "adjustments" to the user had conceived as the "norm"(smaller more frequent fires, cost of storage, etc.)... I too am skeptical on the idea of no storage but I will be testing this use of the WG this heating season w/o storage due to lack of funds to install a tank. I will be of the mind that storage will still be installed in the near future until proven otherwise...I will post my thoughts on this over the winter.
Regarding the WG not relighting a fire during low demand times...I'm hoping the adjustable cycle timer on my unit solves that problem. I plan to use the timer only when I have larger loads in the WG due to extended periods of time we may not be at home, but for the most part we plan to burn smaller fires and just make more trips to the basement. Not a big deal for us since my wife works 3rd shift so there is usually somebody home and from what I've read of wood burning newbies (like we will be) there will be a lot of curiosity trips to the boiler anyways!


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## dogwood (Sep 18, 2009)

Gooserider, I think Bioheat will email at least their Solo Innova and Froeling manuals if you ask. They did this for me on request. Maybe this site could start a library. It would be better as you suggested if all the companies kept them online. I think I did come across the EKO manual someplace online.

Mike


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## Gooserider (Sep 18, 2009)

dogwood said:
			
		

> Gooserider, I think Bioheat will email at least their Solo Innova and Froeling manuals if you ask. They did this for me on request. Maybe this site could start a library. It would be better as you suggested if all the companies kept them online. I think I did come across the EKO manual someplace online.
> 
> Mike



I know they will, as I have been told as much by them...  However that doesn't do much for the next person that comes along, other than having them go through the expense and hassle of mailing manuals to everyone that asks, as opposed to putting them online ONCE per revision as a downloadable file...  Back in the bad days of expensive storage, and manual typesetting, this would be a problem, but these days I would be surprised to see anybody producing manuals and other large documents without using electronic tools, and the storage and bandwidth for electronic distribution is approaching free...  I know of one ISP that will give you an account with all the tools you need to do a website, unlimited storage, unlimited data transfer, and a bunch of other stuff for $6.95 / month - which is probably on the order of what it would cost BioHeat to mail out ONE set of printed manuals.

I have found the manuals for both the EKO and PAXO boilers on line at different sites, as well as some of the other boilers - in some cases they are translations of less than stellar quality, but at least there is something on line.

OTOH, if Hearth.com was to try and create a library, we would have to scan things in from paper, which always gives some quality problems, and is a bit of a headache, plus we would have to deal with the whole issue of copyrights and permissions, etc...  I know that Craig has some material posted in the Wiki, but I beleive most of it is for stuff where the company that made it is no longer in business, or is no longer supporting the product and has given permission to post the stuff - though I don't know the details, it's his job not mine...

My main issue though is that I would like to see all the boiler companies / importers put their manuals online, I think it is an important tool for the consumer, and it is IMHO a useful thing for the companies as well.  As a comparison, I have not found ONE currently produced stove that didn't have an online manual available, but currently of the brands I've checked (essentially gasses officially sold in the US) only about half the boiler companies do...

I know that these days, there are very few major purchases I make where I DON'T look for and download the product manual for the candidates on the "short list" before making a purchase decision - and lack of manuals can often bump a product or vendor off the list...

Gooserider


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## Singed Eyebrows (Sep 18, 2009)

www.kotly.com has the Atmos manuals online as well as a few others. I'm glad Patrick was able to clear up some of the outstanding Wood Gun issues. Some members are still hesitant to believe a WG can be run without storage not to also mention the no chimney issue. When you understand the WG takes in it's air through a piece of pipe & a motorized flap that has a silicone rubber gasket has the ability to seal the end of the pipe airtite then you also can see that upon sealing the fire dies fast & you don't have the combustion products to deal with that every other boiler & furnace has. I looked at a WG that had the cycle timer & this solved the only other issue WG had & that was relighting. It will be interesting to hear again from MuncieBob as to his results, Randy


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## Piker (Sep 18, 2009)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> When you understand the WG takes in it's air through a piece of pipe & a motorized flap that has a silicone rubber gasket has the ability to seal the end of the pipe airtite then you also can see that upon sealing the fire dies fast & you don't have the combustion products to deal with that every other boiler & furnace has.



I think that is slightly innacurate.  While it sounds reasonable that shutting the air off immediately after a burn will prevent combustion products from entering the thie chimney, any time any gasser comes out of an idle state, be it a completely oxygen starved idle state or just an extremely low oxygen idle state, there will be a few moments required to bring the refractories back up to temperature before combustion reaches a high level of efficiency.  Without thermal storage, there WILL BE particulates that stick in the stack.  Actually, even with thermal storage there will be SOME, though in greatly reduced quantity.

cheers


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## Singed Eyebrows (Sep 18, 2009)

Hi Piker; I think we are on the same page, though the WG does not shut off air after a burn as you stated, it shuts off during the burn with maybe 3/4 load of wood in it. I should have clarified that the WG does not have the combustion products to deal with in the shut down mode that others do. Upon startup the WG(no storage) may even have more particulates than others. I did not address emissions issues or chimney coating & I would expect that a WG run without storage wouldn't be near as clean as a gasser run flat out into storage as you have stated, Randy


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## Piker (Sep 18, 2009)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Hi Piker; I think we are on the same page, though the WG does not shut off air after a burn as you stated, it shuts off during the burn with maybe 3/4 load of wood in it. I should have clarified that the WG does not have the combustion products to deal with in the shut down mode that others do. Upon startup the WG(no storage) may even have more particulates than others. I did not address emissions issues or chimney coating & I would expect that a WG run without storage wouldn't be near as clean as a gasser run flat out into storage as you have stated, Randy



What I meant to say was "shutting the air off immedialty after the high limit on the water jacket has been met."   But overall, I would say that we are in agreement.  

cheers


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## RogerABE (Sep 28, 2009)

I am happy to have found this conversation thread/topic.  I hope the following information is of interest to this group and that it may lead to additional information that can help me.

Context: I am an engineer in the biomass combustion industry. I am currently working on a feasibility study for installation of a cord wood boiler system into a small, on farm food processing facility.  The study is being funded by an agricultural organization and will be published upon completion.  AHS Wood Guns and Econoburns, along with other boilers, will be mentioned in the report.  

As many here already know- efficiency numbers are meaningless without a context.  Even with a context, efficiency numbers may be misleading if the context does not match real world combustion conditions.  

Econoburns have been tested under the EPA’s voluntary testing program and I have a copy of the publicly available parts of the test results.  I do not have test results on the Wood Gun product line (AHS has declined to share them despite repeated requests over a long time frame).  I am hoping someone in this group might have more Wood Gun background information they can share as I am trying very hard to impartially evaluate efficiency claims made by each boiler manufacturer.  

Without the data needed to evaluate the Wood Gun’s efficiency claim, the primary recourse left is to attempt to evaluate the context in which that data was initially developed and related outcomes.  Here are the details (beyond AHS’s claims) that I have found-
    - Wood Gun was tested by the Arnold Greene Testing Laboratories (AGTL) a long time ago (specific test date not disclosed).
    - Standardized wood boiler testing requirements did not exist in the US at the time of testing.  The testing laboratory and manufacturer appear to have been free to select-structure their own efficiency test methods.
    - AGTL’s testing and approval of wood boilers and furnaces included products like the Stelrad wood/coal boiler and the Bryan Outdoor Furnace.  I suspect neither of these two products would pass current efficiency standards even if those standards were modified to accommodate them.
    - AGTL’s boiler & solid fuel heating system testing division no longer exists.
    - AGTL specialized in non-destructive testing and that business sector was acquired by another company.
    - AGTL no longer exists.
    - AHS has stated (personal communication) that the company does not plan to have the Wood Gun tested under current EPA standards/methods.

Econoburn’s Method 28 for OWHH test data shows
    - The boilers were recently tested to the current standardized protocol.
    - Thermal Efficiency at max capacity (162,164 BTU/hr for model 150) is estimated to be 82.1% on a LHV basis.  (some calculations based on standard assumptions required)
    - Specific seasonal thermal efficiencies are lower than the efficiency at max capacity- as would be expected for any boiler.

In short- it is possible to confirm and compare Econoburn’s efficiency claims.  Efficiency claims for the Wood Gun can not be currently confirmed or compared and are only provided in sales literature without context.  As a result, I agree with Gooserider’s 14aug09 post that stated, “Some of the stuff on the Wood Gun website … strikes me as a bit “snake-oil” flavored.”   AHS’s currently stated efficiency number meets this characterization. 

I would appreciate receiving details on AHS’s test results and methodology if anyone happens to have them on file.  If nothing else, I hope this message will put some public pressure on AHS to provide the information to properly qualify their efficiency claims and provide the transparency that is in the best interest of potential end users.

Thanks,

Roger


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## Singed Eyebrows (Sep 29, 2009)

Hi Roger; Wouldn't the overall efficiency of any gasser simply be flue gas temperature? This is assuming the boilers radiant losses are not wasted heat & are used as in a basement etc. If this is the case someone could measure a WG gas exit temps. I don't believe that all the efficiency ratings(of the various boilers) are of the percentage of available heat that is put into the water. If I can be of any help with my Atmos (when it's installed) please let me know, Randy PS One of the WG's I saw operating had very high flue gas temps, this was possibly due to burning wet wood as I read somewhere that steam can drive heat out of a wood burner.


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## Fred61 (Sep 29, 2009)

The WG has extremely high air flow which IMO would reduce the stack temp and give you a false reading on efficiency. I know because the one I had would actually send still ignited particles out the top of a 15 foot chimney. I suppose it needs that flow because it doesn't have any provision for secondary air injection.


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## RogerABE (Sep 29, 2009)

Hi Randy (Singed Eyebrows)-

In answer to your question "Wouldn’t the overall efficiency of any gasser simply be flue gas temperature?" 

No, flue gas temperature is not a measure of overall efficiency, there are many other variables that need to be known.  It is possible to use flue gas temperature as an indicator of a relative change in thermal efficiency (assuming all other variables are constant).  Here is one example.  Many older wood chip boilers do not have soot blowers.  We tell system operators of those systems to watch for their stack temperatures to start climbing as an indication that fly ash has accumulated in the fire tubes and is reducing heat transfer and efficiency.  That increase in in temperature is their signal to brush out the fire tubes.  Again, that is only a relative change in efficiency- not an absolute measure of efficiency.

On a more technical note, stack temperature alone doesn't tell us the amount of heat being lost up the flue because it doesn't tell us how much heat is present.  We would minimally need to also know the mass of gas going up the flue to determine the # of BTU's going up the stack.  An exact measurement would require knowing the composition of the flue gases.  As one example, flue gas containing a lot of water vapor may be at the same temperature as another flue gas that does not, but the one containing the water vapor could be taking a lot more energy up the stack.

At the risk of really complicating things- let's take another tangent to a system that has too little combustion air (sub stoichiometric).  If the wood in the firebox is at a temperature that the wood is being volatized into a combustible gas, then stack temperature alone won't tell us that the gas we could be burning is being lost up the stack due to a lack of oxygen to convert that gas to available heat.

Bottom line- stack temperature MAY (under certain conditions) indicate a relative change in efficiency, but it doesn't tell us absolute efficiency.  The best way to determine efficiency is to look at available energy into the system vs energy captured to the heat load.  Even then, manufacturers can play games with the specifications (i.e. LHV vs HHV efficiency numbers) to mask what will happen in a real world application.  Hope that helps Randy.

Roger


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## Singed Eyebrows (Sep 29, 2009)

Hi Roger; I can understand some of what you said.  If you know the amount of btu's available in the wood you load into the furnace & this can be figured reasonaby close & you know the btu's that are going up the chimney doesn't this give you overall efficiency? The btu's going into the chimney is not only temp as I mentioned it is also cfm as Fred pointed out. I read in a number of previous posts people saying that if only we had an engineer on this forum, well now we have one, it's good to have you here, Randy


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## RogerABE (Sep 29, 2009)

Randy- If, and that's a big IF, we know flue gas temperature, the mass flow rate of the flue gases, and the gas composition of the flue gas, then yes, efficiency (ignoring jacket losses) can be determined if you know the input conditions too.  However, (you knew that word was coming, didn't you) a single measurement or set of measurements during a short portion of the burn cycle isn't sufficient.  

It is much easier to measure heat flow in the hydronic loop than to measure the heat flow in the flue because there are fewer variables and the variables are easier to characterize.  Measuring heat extraction in the hydronic loop requires 3 sensors (supply temp, return temp and flow rate).  Many more sensors are required for the stack.  Gas flow profiles in the stack may not be well defined, so multiple temperature sensors are required (cross sectional area or chord sampling).  The flue gas sampling protocols and instrumentation are more complex and much more expensive.  

Mass fuel flow into a batch fired boiler doesn't happen, so current test lab procedures measure mass loss instead by placing the boiler on a scale and watch the weight decrease as fuel is burned.  

Think of it as a three variable system- if we know (measure) two, we can calculate the third.  Flue gas is the hardest to measure accurately, so I'd rather calculate it if given the option.  Roger


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## Singed Eyebrows (Sep 29, 2009)

Hi Roger; After I posted I realized it's more complicated than I first thought. I thought about putting the boiler on a scale & even then seems to be a can of worms. I don't envy you on this one, Randy


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