# Progress Hybrid tips, tricks, and expectations?



## Air_cooled_driver (Jan 12, 2015)

I wanted to get input of the community's collective wisdom on my new stove install. Overall I am delighted with the stove and am familiar enough with it after a few weeks of use to want to fine-tune things. I have it running through an interior brick chimney with a 6" uninsulated ss liner about 23' long. Block off plate installed in flue. Rear exit. 

I am burnng mostly oak at about 19% moisture content. The stove wants to settle around 450* as measured with the thermometer sitting on the top exit blockoff plate. It will stay there for three to five hours or so and then gradually drop to about 300* as it burns down. Takes about 10 hours for the stove to start to get "cold," dropping under 200*. 

The house is an OLD colonial farmhouse with several different wings and we are primarily using the central air fan to move heat around.  The stove is as centrally located as it can be. Insulation and drafty old windows are issues. I acknowledge this aspect of things as a huge challenge.

In the morning I have started taking the coals into a pile at the front and can get the temps up a bit longer as those burn down with a bit more open damper. 

What should I be thinking about/changing/doing to get more out of the stove, or is this about what to expect? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


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## Jags (Jan 12, 2015)

In some situations, you would be amazed at how a central furnace fan mutes the heat of the stove.  I would consider using small floor fans to help move the air.


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 12, 2015)

This is my second season with the PH.  During the winter I live in the SE Tennessee mountains just west of Chattanooga where winters are moderate with an occasional very cold streak.  My house is a newer construction ranch of 1500 sq. ft. with good insulation.  The PH is installed via rear vent on an outer wall in the great room (approx. 850 sq. ft.).  Room has cathedral ceilings and a lot of windows for the views.  I run the stove on a 12 hour reload schedule which fits nicely into my daily schedule.  (shorter burn times during really cold weather). I find that most of the time the stove is set on its lowest air damper setting with stove top temps of 475* to 500*.  I burn very well seasoned oak and hickory (16 to 17% MC), and usually only load it 70% full ( 1 really large split in the back surrounded by 3 other medium sized splits on top and in front.  Sometimes I will place a fourth medium split in if the temps are really low.  On reloads I get the stove top temp up to 350* before I engage the cat.  I turn down the air by 25% until the temp reaches 370* and then turn it all the way down.  The stove usually then goes dark for a while as the stove temps climb to 475 - 500*.  In about a half hour or so the secondaries start up.  If the stove starts to back puff I open the air just a crack.  I have never timed the secondaries, but I get a nice long beautiful fire show.  With a nice glass of wine or Macallan 18 year old scotch, it's better then watching TV.  About 10 to 11 hours into the burn, the stove is well into the coaling stage and temps are about 300*.  I then open up the air and get the coals glowing bright red.  An hour or so later, I reload and start the process all over.  The room the stove is in has three ceiling fans I use on occasion. But what I really like to do is use a super quiet table top fan directed at the back of the stove.  It gently moves some of the intense heat on the back side of the stove into the room a little faster.  But to be honest, on days when I forget to use the fan, the room is still very comfortable.  I think the advantage to the fan is to bring the room up to temp just a little faster and more evenly distributes the heat in the early stages of the burn.  But on a cold winter night with the TV off, I do not want to be hearing the noise of a fan running.  The rest of the house normally stays about 5* cooler then the stove room.  Sometimes I will place a small very quiet box fan in the hallway blowing cold air toward the stove room.  This works well but I usually do not need to do it.  I like the bedrooms on the cool side.  The average winter temp in my great room is 74* with the stove running on its lowest setting.   Not all stoves work in all situations, and each of us wood burners have different priorities.  But for my situation, this stove has been a real blessing.  I just love its looks and performance.


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## weatherguy (Jan 12, 2015)

Sounds like you're doing ok, I run mine a little hotter when it's cold but it seems to like 500. I agree with Jags, I did an experiment with the central fan running and it was actually cooler in areas I had a thermo.


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## Woody Stover (Jan 12, 2015)

Jags said:


> I would consider using small floor fans to help move the air.


Use them to move cool air toward the stove room, and that will set up a convection loop.


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## alforit (Jan 12, 2015)

Air_cooled_driver said:


> I wanted to get input of the community's collective wisdom on my new stove install. Overall I am delighted with the stove and am familiar enough with it after a few weeks of use to want to fine-tune things. I have it running through an interior brick chimney with a 6" uninsulated ss liner about 23' long. Block off plate installed in flue. Rear exit.
> 
> I am burnng mostly oak at about 19% moisture content. The stove wants to settle around 450* as measured with the thermometer sitting on the top exit blockoff plate. It will stay there for three to five hours or so and then gradually drop to about 300* as it burns down. Takes about 10 hours for the stove to start to get "cold," dropping under 200*.
> 
> ...




If you have no expectations then you wont be disappointed


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## fire_man (Jan 12, 2015)

Your experience seems about right for this stove. You seem to have figured it out quickly.
 I used to have backpuffing issues but since I added 2 feet of pipe (now I have about 16 feet) its much better.
I think you will find the stove is a little slower to get hot once the cat breaks in. The SS cats are hyperactive for the first 10 or so fires.

Best think I did for this stove was to add the ashpan option. No more mess scooping out ash!


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 12, 2015)

fire_man said:


> Best think I did for this stove was to add the ashpan option. No more mess scooping out ash!


I second that on the ash pan.  Very well designed.


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## Berner (Jan 12, 2015)

On reloads I get the stove top temp up to 350* before I engage the cat.  I turn down the air by 25% until the temp reaches 370* and then turn it all the way down.  The stove usually then goes dark for a while as the stove temps climb to 475 - 500*.  In about a half hour or so the secondaries start up.  


Isn't the stove going dark is a no no?   I thought on reloads you want active flame for a while to keep flue temps high?


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 13, 2015)

Berner said:


> On reloads I get the stove top temp up to 350* before I engage the cat.  I turn down the air by 25% until the temp reaches 370* and then turn it all the way down.  The stove usually then goes dark for a while as the stove temps climb to 475 - 500*.  In about a half hour or so the secondaries start up.
> 
> 
> Isn't the stove going dark is a no no?   I thought on reloads you want active flame for a while to keep flue temps high?


I keep active flames until the stove hits 350* and the cat is engaged.  Then I still keep active flames until it raises to 370* so I am sure the cat is active.  Then I turn the air way down and the flames go out thus creating a lot of smoke which feeds the cat.  The stove top temp then raises rather fast to the operating temp of 475 to 500*.  Works every time for me and my setup.  I have good draft and never a smoke smell issue.


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## Berner (Jan 13, 2015)

Tenn Dave said:


> I keep active flames until the stove hits 350* and the cat is engaged.  Then I still keep active flames until it raises to 370* so I am sure the cat is active.  Then I turn the air way down and the flames go out thus creating a lot of smoke which feeds the cat.  The stove top temp then raises rather fast to the operating temp of 475 to 500*.  Works every time for me and my setup.  I have good draft and never a smoke smell issue.



I've got really good draft as well.  But last year I had lots of creosote.   Burning 2yr seasoned wood might have something to do with that.  However I've been trying to run hotter fires this year to make sure I keep the creosote down.  What are your creosote levels at using your method?


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 13, 2015)

Berner said:


> I've got really good draft as well.  But last year I had lots of creosote.   Burning 2yr seasoned wood might have something to do with that.  However I've been trying to run hotter fires this year to make sure I keep the creosote down.  What are your creosote levels at using your method?


Not bad at all.  At the end of last season I got about 3 cups of black soot out of a 23 ft chimney.  And cap was nice and clean.


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## Nick Mystic (Jan 13, 2015)

I second the advice of weatherguy regarding the use of the central heating system fan to circulate air around the house. When I tried doing this it was very ineffective and you are running that big squirrel cage fan all the time.  I have the best success just running our living room ceiling fan on reverse and blowing the hot air trapped up in the cathedral ceiling back down the walls to the lower part of the room.


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## Air_cooled_driver (Jan 13, 2015)

This is great. Keep it coming. That is solid advice about the central air fan--we left it off late yesterday and today, and at worst everything is the same as with the fan, so I think we will scrap that. I am getting a small fan to experiment with. 

I also got the ashpan. It is pretty great.


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## Flamestead (Jan 13, 2015)

Don't confuse Fall and Spring burn times with cold weather burn times. A PH at 200 degrees is a shooting offense here. We reload at 400-450 degree stovetop (our reload is based on coals, not on stovetop temp). You get the real heat from this stove (any stove) by burning wood, not by stretching across as many hours as possible. In this weather (-4 and dropping) we sacrifice some efficiency, as noted by higher stack temps, in order to get more heat into the house.


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## alforit (Jan 13, 2015)

Flamestead said:


> Don't confuse Fall and Spring burn times with cold weather burn times. A PH at 200 degrees is a shooting offense here. We reload at 400-450 degree stovetop (our reload is based on coals, not on stovetop temp). You get the real heat from this stove (any stove) by burning wood, not by stretching across as many hours as possible. In this weather (-4 and dropping) we sacrifice some efficiency, as noted by higher stack temps, in order to get more heat into the house.




I like your honesty and straightforwardness Flamestead. You don't fluff things like some others do.


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## Air_cooled_driver (Jan 14, 2015)

Rocking the secondaries this morning.


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## Slow1 (Jan 14, 2015)

Jumping in here to share a few observations...

This year I've started burning a bit different after 2 seasons with the PH.  Most noted is that I'm letting the stove get a bit hotter before 'shutting down' the air.  Previously I pretty much would fire it up, get the cat engaged, then set the air to where I wanted it and walk away.  Easy, sure, but perhaps (based on recent experience) not the optimal way to operate.  So now I'm filling stove, engaging cat around 300*, then leaving it running with more air (about 3/4?) until it really has taken off and is getting hot (450+ on surface).  Then I turn air down in steps and have been ending up at about fully off.

Results?  It SEEMS I'm getting longer burn times (i.e. enough coals for re-light time extended).  I don't know if the house is any warmer etc, but not getting any complaints.  Running it hotter seems to have eliminated any backpuffs/smoke smells.  I also have am making more regular use of a floor fan pointed low at stove to force household mixing.

I've used about a cord of wood so far this year - a tad more.  Seems to be on track to previous years.  Yesterday I loaded 3 times (mid-afternoon in anticipation of single digits overnight) and this morning house was nice and warm - didn't even feel need to feed the stove until back from dropping kids off.  

Happy camper


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## TJL (Jan 27, 2015)

Air_cooled_driver said:


> I wanted to get input of the community's collective wisdom on my new stove install. Overall I am delighted with the stove and am familiar enough with it after a few weeks of use to want to fine-tune things. I have it running through an interior brick chimney with a 6" uninsulated ss liner about 23' long. Block off plate installed in flue. Rear exit.
> 
> I am burnng mostly oak at about 19% moisture content. The stove wants to settle around 450* as measured with the thermometer sitting on the top exit blockoff plate. It will stay there for three to five hours or so and then gradually drop to about 300* as it burns down. Takes about 10 hours for the stove to start to get "cold," dropping under 200*.
> 
> ...



I am in the midst of the third year with the Progress Hybrid having used a Fireview for 20+ years. I replaced the Fireview because the internals were distorted, probably from chronic overheating. My story includes some good news and some not-so-good news, but first I want to clearly state that Woodstock Soapstone Company is a fine organization with an excellent product and excellent customer service. 

The mostly-good news:
The stove is very attractive, easy to load, and relatively easy to empty ashes with the ash pan. It provides a lot of heat and can burn all night with enough coals by morning to restart by simply adding wood. Soapstone has much better heat retention qualities than an equivalent weight of steel. This means longer time to heat up, but also longer time to cool down. I have a lot of "storage mass" in the room with the stove (brick wall, tile floor over concrete) so even is the stove cools somewhat by morning, the floor and the room are never cold. I burn mainly black locust that is several years old (from storm damage mostly) and have a lot more of it to use. I normally operate the stove with the inlet damper just slightly open. Last year I kept it mostly closed and had a lot of hard soot buildup in the chimney liner at the end of the season.

The not-so-good news:
I normally need to empty the ash pan every week. It I go much longer than that, I need to empty it more than once. At that time I also clean the glass and brush the screen. No problem with that. The problem is that I also need to remove and clean the catalytic converter almost every week because it is blocked with fine dust. Cleaning it with a vacuum cleaner is not a problem but taking the stove apart every week to do so is a BIG PITA. If the cat is not cleaned, the stove must be operated with the bypass open to get any decent draft. AFTER 2-1/2 YEARS, I HAVE DECIDED TO KEEP THE BYPASS OPEN ALL THE TIME AND NOT ENGAGE THE CAT. I could never see any difference in performance or stack appearance with it. When the stove is heating from a cold start I get some smoke regardless of bypass position. When the stove is up to temperature (>300) I have a perfectly clean stack regardless of bypass position. I did complain to Woodstock early in the game about the cat and they sent me a new one, no charge. It did not make any noticeable difference. I always engaged the cat in accordance with Woodstock's suggestions. Perhaps the cat does reduce emissions and improve overall efficiency, but not enough for me to justify weekly cat cleaning. I have read that others have a cat that is perfectly clean when the inspect it. Great for them but that is not my experience. Perhaps the quality of my wood is a factor, but my wood supply is what I have to work with for years to come.

When I load the hot stove full of wood, the temperature often rises to 500-600. At this writing, the stove is less than half full of wood (bypass open) that was added about an hour ago, the stovetop temperature is 500 and the stove pipe temperature about 2 feet up is 260, just about perfect. The damper is and has been just slightly open.

I welcome any comments, but you needn't explain the catalytic converter to me. I have two degrees in chemical engineering and have operated cat stoves for over 20 years. (I abandoned that catalytic converter on the Fireview after the first replacement for reasons similar to above.)

Thanks for any comments.


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## begreen (Jan 27, 2015)

Interesting report, thanks for posting. Some others have been not too pleased about the cat cleaning cycle. Locust is a great fuel, I love burning it. 

Welcome to hearth.com!


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 27, 2015)

TJL said:


> I am in the midst of the third year with the Progress Hybrid having used a Fireview for 20+ years. I replaced the Fireview because the internals were distorted, probably from chronic overheating. My story includes some good news and some not-so-good news, but first I want to clearly state that Woodstock Soapstone Company is a fine organization with an excellent product and excellent customer service.
> 
> The mostly-good news:
> The stove is very attractive, easy to load, and relatively easy to empty ashes with the ash pan. It provides a lot of heat and can burn all night with enough coals by morning to restart by simply adding wood. Soapstone has much better heat retention qualities than an equivalent weight of steel. This means longer time to heat up, but also longer time to cool down. I have a lot of "storage mass" in the room with the stove (brick wall, tile floor over concrete) so even is the stove cools somewhat by morning, the floor and the room are never cold. I burn mainly black locust that is several years old (from storm damage mostly) and have a lot more of it to use. I normally operate the stove with the inlet damper just slightly open. Last year I kept it mostly closed and had a lot of hard soot buildup in the chimney liner at the end of the season.
> ...


I guess there is nothing more to say - you said it all.  But I will say that my experience has been completely different then yours.  And I don't know why.  Perhaps it is the strength of the draft or the different wood that we burn (I burn 3+ years seasoned oak & hickory).  But I wish you the best of luck..


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 27, 2015)

begreen said:


> Interesting report, thanks for posting. Some others have been not too pleased about the cat cleaning cycle. Locust is a great fuel, I love burning it.
> 
> Welcome to hearth.com!


In some cases it seems that not having the ash pan or an overly strong draft has caused more frequent cleanings.  Usually once a month on a warmer day I will shut her down and clean her up.  But the cat has never been clogged, just a little dusty.. I could easily switch to a 2 month cleaning schedule with no ill effects.


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 27, 2015)

TJL said:


> I am in the midst of the third year with the Progress Hybrid having used a Fireview for 20+ years. I replaced the Fireview because the internals were distorted, probably from chronic overheating. My story includes some good news and some not-so-good news, but first I want to clearly state that Woodstock Soapstone Company is a fine organization with an excellent product and excellent customer service.
> 
> The mostly-good news:
> The stove is very attractive, easy to load, and relatively easy to empty ashes with the ash pan. It provides a lot of heat and can burn all night with enough coals by morning to restart by simply adding wood. Soapstone has much better heat retention qualities than an equivalent weight of steel. This means longer time to heat up, but also longer time to cool down. I have a lot of "storage mass" in the room with the stove (brick wall, tile floor over concrete) so even is the stove cools somewhat by morning, the floor and the room are never cold. I burn mainly black locust that is several years old (from storm damage mostly) and have a lot more of it to use. I normally operate the stove with the inlet damper just slightly open. Last year I kept it mostly closed and had a lot of hard soot buildup in the chimney liner at the end of the season.
> ...


You don't by any chance ever open the loading door and move the coals around with the cat engaged?  I read a post on another site about the cat being clogged and it turned out that the stove owner was pushing the coals and ash around with the cat engaged and creating a dust storm that went straight into the cat.


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## fire_man (Jan 27, 2015)

alforit - great post explaining your points- I have a couple comments:



> [quote="alforit, post: 1883155, member: 26545"
> 
> The Woodstock PH sort of ran away on me 3 different times ... I woke up to a overheated hearth that I couldn't touch with my hand . I lost confidence with the stove after that.  I will Not risk my safety to a stove like that.



WOW that surprises me.  You must have had the short stove legs with no ashlip installed. I have the long leg model with an ashlip and the hearth barely gets warm. It's got lower Hearth R value requirements than the Fireview or Keystone models. I'm not sure about the "runway" part. I never had that happen.



> Cleaning the glass was also a real PAIN in the.......  Having to reach through the side to access the glass and harpooning my hand on the Andirons.



I have to agree with you on this one - What a pain cleaning the glass but I'm not sure what they could do differently.


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## alforit (Jan 27, 2015)

fire_man said:


> alforit - great post explaining your points- I have a couple comments:
> WOW that surprises me.  You must have had the short stove legs with no ashlip installed. I have the long leg model with an ashlip and the hearth barely gets warm. It's got lower Hearth R value requirements than the Fireview or Keystone models. I'm not sure about the "runway" part. I never had that happen.
> I have to agree with you on this one - What a pain cleaning the glass but I'm not sure what they could do differently.


I had the long legs on my PH.......And yeah it freaked me out the first time it happened........I was half awake from just getting up when I discovered it.  Then it happened two more time after that.......I literally could not touch the hearth or it would have burned my hand.


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## Berner (Jan 27, 2015)

alforit said:


> I had the long legs on my PH.......And yeah it freaked me out the first time it happened........I was half awake from just getting up when I discovered it.  Then it happened two more time after that.......I literally could not touch the hearth or it would have burned my hand.



What stove top temps were present during these over fires?  Did you do something different during these burns to cause it to spike?  What did you do to bring the temps back down?


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 27, 2015)

This thread is an interesting read about stoves being over fired.  Start at the beginning - a lot of interesting opinions and experiences including the PH.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-to-runaway-than-another.101621/#post-1306877


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## alforit (Jan 27, 2015)

Berner said:


> What stove top temps were present during these over fires?  Did you do something different during these burns to cause it to spike?  What did you do to bring the temps back down?



I think the PH was loaded 3/4 to full each time the overheating happened...........  I don't remember the stove top temps. It always occurred sometime in the night , so when I got to it in the morning , it was like a nuclear event had happened ....The house was super warm with a weird smell , and the stove was on the down swing. I wondered if the hearth was that hot at the time I  was there,  then how hot did it get in the night ?


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## TJL (Jan 28, 2015)

Tenn Dave said:


> You don't by any chance ever open the loading door and move the coals around with the cat engaged?  I read a post on another site about the cat being clogged and it turned out that the stove owner was pushing the coals and ash around with the cat engaged and creating a dust storm that went straight into the cat.


I have NEVER opened the door with the bypass closed.


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## TheRambler (Jan 29, 2015)

How hot is the hearth getting under and around yall's PH? I just installed my PH yesterday and the left and right sides of the stove, more towards the front corners is getting up to 180 or so This was with a fairly small fire. Stove top temps were 350ish on the top cover plate, and ranged from 300-400 elsewhere on the stove body. flue temp was reading about 260 with a IR therm on my SS liner. With my old stove the hearth would normally be around 115, and a max of 150 with a very large roaring fire. So 180 with a small fire was not what i was expecting. Just curious if this is the norm. The areas getting this hot was in the vicinity of the underbody of the stove between the edge cast and the bottom heat shield/ash pan. Areas not near this exposed section of the stove under body only got to 110-25ish.


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## fire_man (Jan 29, 2015)

180F Hearth temp does sound really really high. I'll take some measurements next time I get a chance.

The three things I know that impact hearth temps on the Progress: Ash lip is needed to reduce Hearth R value requirements, IR reflective glass lowers Hearth temps, Long vs Short legs matters.
Of course all the required bottom-stove heat shields must be installed correctly.


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## TheRambler (Jan 29, 2015)

I have the tall legs and the ash lip. Seems to just be in the vicinity where the heat shield doesnt cover


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## TheRambler (Jan 29, 2015)

So last night i didn't reload the stove as i was concerned about the high temps and wanted to be able to keep a close eye on it for its first burn of any lengthy duration. It probably burned out somewhere around midnight. I got up at 2am for work and stove was around 150. Got home around 6 and loaded it up maybe 30%, and the problem has gone away it seems... Been burning for about 2 hours now, stove top around 450. Hearth temps 110-125ish.

Not sure what it could be other than that there is a small amount of ash in the stove now.


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## Oldman47 (Jan 29, 2015)

At 120ºF the surface will feel hot enough to burn exposed skin. If you touch something that hot you will pull back your hand in under 2 seconds. At 180ºF you are way outside anyone's comfort zone. If anything near a stove got that hot I would definitely be looking for what the cause was.


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2015)

Hmm, this is the second report of a PH getting the hearth very hot. Yet others say their hearth is just warm. Rambler, what is your hearth constructed of or rated at? Woodstock calls for R=.80 insulation. Is there an ashpan on the stove?


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 29, 2015)

begreen said:


> Hmm, this is the second report of a PH getting the hearth very hot. Yet others say their hearth is just warm. Rambler, what is your hearth constructed of or rated at? Woodstock calls for R=.80 insulation. Is there an ashpan on the stove?


Mine gets warm but not hot.  I can easily keep my hand on it.  And I do have the ash pan.


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## TheRambler (Jan 29, 2015)

There is an ash pan on my stove. With the optional ash lip you can go down to .40. My hearth is .41. Durock next gen, with ceramic tile on top.

I have been playing with the stove most of the day and i think i have figured out when its doing it/getting the hearth hot. When i have a good strong fire or secondaries going the hearth doesnt get over 100-115. But, when it is reduced to largely coals the bottom of the stove, the 2 sides where the heat shield leaves a small portion of the stove body exposed gets to about 600ish degrees and thus radiates down at an angle onto the hearth causing the 180ish temps. Same spot on the stove body with good strong draft going and strong secondaries is only 350-450, and temps on the hearth max out at 115.


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## fire_man (Jan 29, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> There is an ash pan on my stove. With the optional ash lip you can go down to .40. My hearth is .41. Durock next gen, with ceramic tile on top.
> 
> I have been playing with the stove most of the day and i think i have figured out when its doing it/getting the hearth hot. When i have a good strong fire or secondaries going the hearth doesnt get over 100-115. But, when it is reduced to largely coals the bottom of the stove, the 2 sides where the heat shield leaves a small portion of the stove body exposed gets to about 600ish degrees and thus radiates down at an angle onto the hearth causing the 180ish temps. Same spot on the stove body with good strong draft going and strong secondaries is only 350-450, and temps on the hearth max out at 115.



Very interesting - I'll be checking this out next time I burn to a hot load of coals.  The implication is the excess heat is radiating from the bottom of the stove and NOT from the window.


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 29, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> There is an ash pan on my stove. With the optional ash lip you can go down to .40. My hearth is .41. Durock next gen, with ceramic tile on top.
> 
> I have been playing with the stove most of the day and i think i have figured out when its doing it/getting the hearth hot. When i have a good strong fire or secondaries going the hearth doesnt get over 100-115. But, when it is reduced to largely coals the bottom of the stove, the 2 sides where the heat shield leaves a small portion of the stove body exposed gets to about 600ish degrees and thus radiates down at an angle onto the hearth causing the 180ish temps. Same spot on the stove body with good strong draft going and strong secondaries is only 350-450, and temps on the hearth max out at 115.


Last time I checked mine it was about 110* but I did not check during the coaling stage.  Next time I fire her up, I will check again with a hot coal bed.  If you're really concerned, you can have one of those mini fans blow cool air under the stove across the hearth.  Probably not necessary, but will give you peace of mind.


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2015)

Might be that Woodstock needs to come up with a bottom heat shield for the non-ashpan models?


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## rideau (Jan 30, 2015)

The Progress Hybrid comes with a bottom heat shield for both the ash pan and non-ash pan models. 

I have never noticed heat on the hearth, except right in front of the glass.  Generally the hearth pad is cool to the touch. 

I checked the pad repeatedly today, during various stages of a burn that went for many hours at about 420 degrees.  The hearth pad remained cool throughout the burn.  When it was posted that the area in question was basically under the stove, I gathered near where the legs are, I checked that area and it was cool also.  I checked it again when burning the coals down.  At one point, when I was burning the coals down, the pad was warm to the touch there, but nothing uncomfortable, and certainly nothing that could burn one or was worrisome. 

I called Woodstock today about this, spoke with Mike.  He was not at all concerned about a temperature of 180 degrees.  He said that with the proper hearth protection that was not a problem.  He did ask a few questions, such as how the temperature was being measured, exactly where it was being measured, whether the bolts were tightly fastened that retain the heat shield.  If they are, between the bolts and the gaskets he was not concerned about a possible air leak.  Several other comments as well, but fundamentally he did not feel there was a problem. 

I had already spoken with Woodstock when Rambler posted his second reply, which gave more detail re the heat in question.  Seems the area is actually under the stove, where it presents no risk of burn and is protected by the hearth pad. 

I am still surprised he is getting those readings, especially with the stove burning at the temps mentioned.


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## alforit (Jan 30, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> There is an ash pan on my stove. With the optional ash lip you can go down to .40. My hearth is .41. Durock next gen, with ceramic tile on top.
> 
> I have been playing with the stove most of the day and i think i have figured out when its doing it/getting the hearth hot. When i have a good strong fire or secondaries going the hearth doesnt get over 100-115. But, when it is reduced to largely coals the bottom of the stove, the 2 sides where the heat shield leaves a small portion of the stove body exposed gets to about 600ish degrees and thus radiates down at an angle onto the hearth causing the 180ish temps. Same spot on the stove body with good strong draft going and strong secondaries is only 350-450, and temps on the hearth max out at 115.




I had a similar experience as you ... Except my


TheRambler said:


> So last night i didn't reload the stove as i was concerned about the high temps and wanted to be able to keep a close eye on it for its first burn of any lengthy duration. It probably burned out somewhere around midnight. I got up at 2am for work and stove was around 150. Got home around 6 and loaded it up maybe 30%, and the problem has gone away it seems... Been burning for about 2 hours now, stove top around 450. Hearth temps 110-125ish.
> 
> Not sure what it could be other than that there is a small amount of ash in the stove now.




Thanks for sharing this Rambler.......I had a similar experience with the Progress Hybrid , though my hearth reached temps way beyond 180 degrees on three different occasions . I had a pretty full load when these occurred . They happened in the night so I couldn't tell what the max temp of the hearth had reached. But it was way beyond 180 Degrees in the morning when got to it. And the stove was already on the downswing by that time...I couldn't tell what area it was coming from because the whole hearth area right below the stove was so hot. My hearth is 3/4 plywood base with 1/2 Durock on top with 1/4 ceramic tile on top of that . I did not have the ash pan on my stove. And it had the long legs.

Keep us posted on whats happening .


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## Jags (Jan 30, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> But, when it is reduced to largely coals the bottom of the stove...



Are you running with the recommended 1 or 2" of ash in the bottom?  Could that help with insulating the bottom portion?


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## TheRambler (Jan 30, 2015)

Not yet, but i should have the recommended amount of ash in a short time. As the ash is building up i have noticed the temps dropping proportionally.


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## Jags (Jan 30, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> Not yet, but i should have the recommended amount of ash in a short time. As the ash is building up i have noticed the temps dropping proportionally.



Just a guess, but I will stick my neck out with...when you get there with the ash level, I think you will see some of those spike temps to be moderated.  Keep us informed.  This is interesting stuff.


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## Tenn Dave (Jan 30, 2015)

Did a test run late yesterday afternoon starting with a clean stove box.  Ran stove up to 510* and tested the hearth temps through out the burn to the coaling stage.  Hearth pad directly under the ash pan was cool to the tough.  Area right beyond ash pan was warm especially in front and sides of stove.  Temp measured 106* in hottest area with IR gun.  Felt comfortably warm to the touch.  Note:  I have a Woodstock hearth pad, long legs, and ash pan.. Hopefully other current PH owners will post their observations.


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## Air_cooled_driver (Feb 1, 2015)

Well, today my Progress is being weird. Today I reloaded as I always do with the same wood, I let the wood char on the outside, and I closed it all down. I came back and checked the stove about an hour later and the stovetop temperature dropped about 250° although I could see many red coals glowing. When I opened the side door the fire sprang into life immediately. I quickly closed the door and the secondaries fired off the instant I closed the door, and the temp shot back up to 450° on the stove top. That load then burned normally, and the next load seems to struggle--stove doesn't want to go over 400°, even with the air more open than usual, again all with the same wood.

Thoughts/suggestions?


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## fire_man (Feb 1, 2015)

I have experienced very similar events. Sometimes the stove heats quickly after reload, other times it's sluggish. One time the stovetop just hovered at 350F with brown smoke pouring from the flue. All I did that day was crack the air from completely closed to very slightly open and the smoke immediately went to pure white and the stovetop temp rose quickly. I noticed you did mention using more air. I have found the "more air" part important after closing the bypass - leave it open at least an inch or two  for at least 5-10 minutes before lowering it.

I have found it helpful to place a magnetic thermometer in the upper right cast iron trim in the corner of the window frame. I never engage the cat until that thermometer reads at least 230F (just into the yellow on my thermometer). This is especially important when there is no well-established hot coal base in the stove upon reloading.

Other tips: Give the cat a quick vacuum every 3 weeks or so and if you are using the iconel screen make sure it is not obstructed with fly ash.

You say "always with the same wood" but does that mean the wood is 2-3 year seasoned or 1 year seasoned? That part is really important. You can get away with somewhat unseasoned wood, but you have to really get those stovetemps up before engaging the cat.

One more thing I did that has improved the odds I get more consistent lightoffs: I added 2 feet of flue to my 15' stack. This definitely helped a lot. In fact I am convinced this is the single biggest factor in getting consistent lightoffs. I say this because I had the same problem with both the Fireview and Progress installed in the 15 foot flue. This year - in another location of my house, I installed a Palladian (similar construction as the Fireview) using a 25 foot flue, and the difference is unbelievable. I never once this entire fall/winter ever had a problem getting a fast lightoff with no fussing. Yes its a brand new cat, but we have had over 20 reloads with lots of burn time on the same cat now.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 1, 2015)

Air_cooled_driver said:


> Well, today my Progress is being weird. Today I reloaded as I always do with the same wood, I let the wood char on the outside, and I closed it all down. I came back and checked the stove about an hour later and the stovetop temperature dropped about 250° although I could see many red coals glowing. When I opened the side door the fire sprang into life immediately. I quickly closed the door and the secondaries fired off the instant I closed the door, and the temp shot back up to 450° on the stove top. That load then burned normally, and the next load seems to struggle--stove doesn't want to go over 400°, even with the air more open than usual, again all with the same wood.
> 
> Thoughts/suggestions?


Try checking your cat and make sure it is not partially clogged.  Also, just to be sure I would check the MC of your wood on the next reload.  Sometimes there can be a section of your wood pile that is wetter then the rest.  It has happened to me.


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## joshrohde (Feb 3, 2015)

TJL said:


> I am in the midst of the third year with the Progress Hybrid having used a Fireview for 20+ years. I replaced the Fireview because the internals were distorted, probably from chronic overheating. My story includes some good news and some not-so-good news, but first I want to clearly state that Woodstock Soapstone Company is a fine organization with an excellent product and excellent customer service.
> 
> The mostly-good news:
> The stove is very attractive, easy to load, and relatively easy to empty ashes with the ash pan. It provides a lot of heat and can burn all night with enough coals by morning to restart by simply adding wood. Soapstone has much better heat retention qualities than an equivalent weight of steel. This means longer time to heat up, but also longer time to cool down. I have a lot of "storage mass" in the room with the stove (brick wall, tile floor over concrete) so even is the stove cools somewhat by morning, the floor and the room are never cold. I burn mainly black locust that is several years old (from storm damage mostly) and have a lot more of it to use. I normally operate the stove with the inlet damper just slightly open. Last year I kept it mostly closed and had a lot of hard soot buildup in the chimney liner at the end of the season.
> ...



If you're dead set on not using the catalyst then you should take it out and leave the bypass closed to increase the time the exhaust smoke is in the stove to try and get a little more heat out of it.


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## OhioBurner© (Feb 3, 2015)

Oldman47 said:


> At 120ºF the surface will feel hot enough to burn exposed skin. If you touch something that hot you will pull back your hand in under 2 seconds. At 180ºF you are way outside anyone's comfort zone. If anything near a stove got that hot I would definitely be looking for what the cause was.



My hearth has got around 180º with my pellet stove, and it has lower R value requirements than the woodstove it replaced which barely made the hearth warm at all.

120º is nothing... I can go barefoot on surfaces into the 130's but I have pretty tough feet from being mostly barefoot the last few years. Those who wear socks and shoes all the time will not have as tough of feet.


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## Air_cooled_driver (Feb 6, 2015)

After a few more days, I am wondering if the fire is just smouldering. It's very much like it doesn't have enough oxygen when closed down all the way--so little that the cat really can't get rolling either, and the glass is getting dirty all the time. If I open the load door, it goes VOOM instantly into huge flames that shake the stove and then settles back down again into a good burn for a little, then gets too cool until I open up the air again. I am having to fiddle with the air a lot. Is there something to clean or check that might cause this?


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## Oldman47 (Feb 6, 2015)

My manual tells me to open the air fully for a couple of minutes before I open the door and leave it open until the new load gets going good. It sounds to me like you are shocking your fire with lots of excess air without giving it much chance to adjust first.


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## Air_cooled_driver (Feb 6, 2015)

Could be, but I'm not opening the door with the damper closed. I open the bypass and damper first. Even if I'm shocking the fire, I am still seeing these wild temp swings without adding wood.


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## Oldman47 (Feb 6, 2015)

Opening the dampers is expected to give you some big combustion but if you do it all in stages it should really help with control compared to wild swings.


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## Air_cooled_driver (Feb 6, 2015)

Yeah, I don't think I communicated well what I am talking about. I am referencing an earlier post in this thread from a few days ago, where I describe the stoves temp diving to near "cold" and then raging again in the presence of more air. It's not normal.


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## TheRambler (Feb 7, 2015)

Have you checked for a blockage in the air flow distribution of the stove?


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## Air_cooled_driver (Feb 7, 2015)

I have a warping cat in the PH. Is this something to worry about?


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 7, 2015)

Air_cooled_driver said:


> I have a warping cat in the PH. Is this something to worry about?


I would think as long as there is no gap between the rear of the cat and the gasket it should be OK.  But I would send those pictures to Woodstock and get their opinion.


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## Flamestead (Feb 7, 2015)

Air_cooled_driver said:


> I have a warping cat in the PH. Is this something to worry about?



I've had some slight warping (less than what you show). I have extra small gasket material that I tuck in around the cat once I get it set in place. How was the backside of your cat (clean or clogged)?

With regards to your initial issue about the fire dying down and then raging with air, have you stepped outside to look for smoke from the chimney when it is beginning to die down? It sounds like your cat is stalling. When brand new these PH cats light off at the drop of a hat, but as you burn more it takes a bit more heat/time to get it to light.

{edit: If you continue to have trouble, document a burn for us: starting conditions, load characteristics, and then record time and temp of stovetop and of flue as the burn progresses and as you make changes like closing the bypass, plus look for smoke.)


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## rideau (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm pretty sure at cat should be replaced.  Woodstock changed the design to have more supports in an effort to stop the cats from warping. 

Definitely shoot them a picture and give them a call.  I suspect they'll be interested to see that warping in that cat. 
I'd guess shocking the fire and having those wild temps swings did it.  How hot does the flue get when you shock the fire?  Do you engage the cat again right away after shocking the fire?

I have not had any problem with cat warping since I got the cat with more than one central support.


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## Air_cooled_driver (Feb 7, 2015)

I am not agreeing that I'm "shocking the fire." The temp swings I have been concerned about are down from normal (400 to 500 stove top) to about 200 over the course of an hour, and then when I open up the fire takes off quickly, indicating to me that my wood is dry and ready to burn.

I was asking for input on possible reasons the temp would plummet like that.


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## rideau (Feb 7, 2015)

OK.  Just used your term, shocking the fire.  Thought you were. 

Point is, the cat should not be warped.  I'd let Woodstock know, send them a photo too. 

Possible reasons:  Cat Clogged (already gone into)

Wood not dry enough

Fire not burned for long enough before being shut down

Air shut down further than your chimney set up permits


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## toddnic (Feb 9, 2015)

Air_cooled_driver said:


> I wanted to get input of the community's collective wisdom on my new stove install. Overall I am delighted with the stove and am familiar enough with it after a few weeks of use to want to fine-tune things. I have it running through an interior brick chimney with a 6" uninsulated ss liner about 23' long. Block off plate installed in flue. Rear exit.
> 
> I am burnng mostly oak at about 19% moisture content. The stove wants to settle around 450* as measured with the thermometer sitting on the top exit blockoff plate. It will stay there for three to five hours or so and then gradually drop to about 300* as it burns down. Takes about 10 hours for the stove to start to get "cold," dropping under 200*.
> 
> ...


 Air_Cooled_Driver, I hope you are enjoying you Progress Hybrid. I'm finishing my second session with the Progress Hybrid. What you are describing above is about normal for me. I sometimes push the temperature higher by adding wood and air when needed but normally I"ll get the stove up to around 450 and then it will cool down eventually to around 300 before reloading  My main issue with the PH is keeping it clean. The cleaner the stove the better it will operate! There is a screen in the front upper part of the firebox, this needs to be cleaned regularly (every 3 or 4 weeks for me). If the screen gets clogged, it will hamper air flow up the chimney and it makes the PH difficult to get up to temp. I normally pull the screen out (remove 3 clips) and blow it out with an air hose. I also pull the catalytic combustor once each month a blow it out with a can of air (computer type). Don't use a higher PSI because it will blow off the special coating on the combustor. Normally, I will also clean the glass at the same time I am doing this maintenance. 

The PH really is an incredible stove. Keeping it clean makes all the difference in how it functions.


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## joshrohde (Feb 9, 2015)

I have the same issue with my cat warping. It's almost identical to air cooled drivers and is only been in use for just 4 weeks so far.


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## TheRambler (Feb 9, 2015)

toddnic said:


> Air_Cooled_Driver, I hope you are enjoying you Progress Hybrid. I'm finishing my second session with the Progress Hybrid. What you are describing above is about normal for me. I sometimes push the temperature higher by adding wood and air when needed but normally I"ll get the stove up to around 450 and then it will cool down eventually to around 300 before reloading  My main issue with the PH is keeping it clean. The cleaner the stove the better it will operate! There is a screen in the front upper part of the firebox, this needs to be cleaned regularly (every 3 or 4 weeks for me). If the screen gets clogged, it will hamper air flow up the chimney and it makes the PH difficult to get up to temp. I normally pull the screen out (remove 3 clips) and blow it out with an air hose. I also pull the catalytic combustor once each month a blow it out with a can of air (computer type). Don't use a higher PSI because it will blow off the special coating on the combustor. Normally, I will also clean the glass at the same time I am doing this maintenance.
> 
> The PH really is an incredible stove. Keeping it clean makes all the difference in how it functions.


 
Just an FYI to all. I recieved and installed my PH about a week and a half ago. My stove came with a note saying the iconel screen has been discontinued and that my model does not have one. To short hand the note it basically says that "the screen was not performing per design well enough and was causing more issues that operating without it". So basically that means that the screen in theory/design is a potentially great thing to have, but real world application has shown it is more of a hinderance than a help and as such they have discontinued its use.


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## joshrohde (Feb 9, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> Just an FYI to all. I recieved and installed my PH about a week and a half ago. My stove came with a note saying the iconel screen has been discontinued and that my model does not have one. To short hand the note it basically says that "the screen was not performing per design well enough and was causing more issues that operating without it". So basically that means that the screen in theory/design is a potentially great thing to have, but real world application has shown it is more of a hinderance than a help and as such they have discontinued its use.



Mine didn't come with one either. They stopped installing all the screens in stoves that were built after mid November 2014. I guess they had too many complaints about it.


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## rideau (Feb 9, 2015)

Josh,

what is the highest temperature you have gotten the firebox?  The flue? 

I'm just curious if the cat is warping after being exposed to a certain temp, or if after prolonged burning above certain temp, or with high air flow above a given temp, or for some other reason.    If we pool experience maybe we can determine the answer.


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## Berner (Feb 9, 2015)

Plus one for the warped CAT.  My money is on thermal shock.  I caught my wife opening the door to load more wood in before opening bypass.  A hot stove then a rush of cold air could cause the warp.


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## joshrohde (Feb 9, 2015)

rideau said:


> Josh,
> 
> what is the highest temperature you have gotten the firebox?  The flue?
> 
> I'm just curious if the cat is warping after being exposed to a certain temp, or if after prolonged burning above certain temp, or with high air flow above a given temp, or for some other reason.    If we pool experience maybe we can determine the answer.



I haven't overfired the stove yet. The highest I have gotten it was 630 for about a half hour to an hour. I burn in the 500 to 600 range when it's cold and windy out as my house isn't insulated and I need the extra heat. Typically it burns 300 to 450 most the time. I try to never open the door with the bypass closed however I have done it a couple times on accident. I vacuum out the cat with a dyson vacuum with the brush attachment. I have cleaned the cat a few times as I don't have the iconel screen to prevent ash from getting up to the cat. I have cleaned it a few times now. The wood I'm burning produces a lot of ash. I empty the ash pan about once a week.
 The PH I own was shipped to me with something that the manufacturers haven't ever seen before. The secondary air baffle would rattle almost constantly for the first couple weeks I burned the stove. I called woodstock to get some answers but no one had ever experienced what I was experiencing with the stove. So after I reload and wait until the temperature rose to 250-300 to close the bypass I would hear periodically the firebox steel expanding or contacting. I close the bypass and wait a minute to close down the air. When the secondaries fire I would hear a extremely rapid metallic noise coming from the secondary intake. I pulled the cook top and tightened every bolt I could get to which didn't help.  I called woodstock and Ron didn't really understand what I was talking about so he said take a screwdriver and tap on different surfaces to narrow down where the noise was coming from. I stuck a long screw driver in the secondary intake and lightly struck the secondary air baffle and the metallic noise stopped for 2 or 3 seconds. I let woodstock know and sent them a video of the noise and they couldn't give me an answer. Ron said he showed the R&D guys and they all stood around scratching their heads. The noise only happened while the secondaries began to fire or immediately following when they go out and would last one minute to several minutes. That was for the first couple weeks I owned the PH. I thought about returning it for a new one since it's still under warranty but decided to wait until at least the heating season is over to decide. The noise now has slowed way down and all but stopped a couple weeks later. I got in touch with Ron again and he still didn't have an answer for me. I guess the secondary air baffle floats in the stove and isn't bolted down to anything to compensate for expansion and contraction of the steel. I guess my stoves air baffle was rattling on something. At the end of the season I'm going to try to figure out what it was. I just don't want to take it apart now during the 20 degree weather. The noise has all but stopped now. Now after my stove cools down some I'm going to get to the cat warping issue. I'll try to get a photo.


----------



## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

toddnic said:


> Air_Cooled_Driver, I hope you are enjoying you Progress Hybrid. I'm finishing my second session with the Progress Hybrid. What you are describing above is about normal for me. I sometimes push the temperature higher by adding wood and air when needed but normally I"ll get the stove up to around 450 and then it will cool down eventually to around 300 before reloading  My main issue with the PH is keeping it clean. The cleaner the stove the better it will operate! There is a screen in the front upper part of the firebox, this needs to be cleaned regularly (every 3 or 4 weeks for me). If the screen gets clogged, it will hamper air flow up the chimney and it makes the PH difficult to get up to temp. I normally pull the screen out (remove 3 clips) and blow it out with an air hose. I also pull the catalytic combustor once each month a blow it out with a can of air (computer type). Don't use a higher PSI because it will blow off the special coating on the combustor. Normally, I will also clean the glass at the same time I am doing this maintenance.
> 
> The PH really is an incredible stove. Keeping it clean makes all the difference in how it functions.


The other day I read on another site that Woodstock is now saying you can take off and stop using the screen.  Mine gives me no problem at all, so I am leaving it on, but the poster said that Woodstock claims it doesn't matter if you keep it off.  You might want to check with Woodstock before removing it.


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## rideau (Feb 9, 2015)

Just to confirm, Woodstock told me I could take mine off last Spring.  When I called the Autumn to see if it was OK to burn for the entire season without it, they told me they were no longer installing the screen, and it was just fine to burn without it.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

rideau said:


> Just to confirm, Woodstock told me I could take mine off last Spring.  When I called the Autumn to see if it was OK to burn for the entire season without it, they told me they were no longer installing the screen, and it was just fine to burn without it.


thanks for the update.


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## begreen (Feb 9, 2015)

So no issues with flame impingement without the screen or premature ash clogging?


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## Oldman47 (Feb 9, 2015)

The quote I saw on this was that the benefit of the screen was not enough to warrant the service calls they were receiving. Too many issues for not enough benefit. They did not say that the screen was worthless but that it was not worth what it was costing them in customer issues.


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## rideau (Feb 9, 2015)

Flame impingement is really not an issue with the PH.  The air path to the cat is very long and convoluted:  up into the upper chamber, to either side and  to the back of the stove, then  down toward the center (much of the ash carried in the air stream is deposited along the way - all of it if the air flow is not too brisk), before flowing up into the cat.

I found I had no increase surface ash build up on my cat after removing the screen.

Since adding the flue damper and slowing the flow of air, ash build up has been drastically reduced.  I now just get a small amount (maybe 1/16 inch max) of surface coating of very fine white powder.  The lighter color is indicative of the more complete combustion I am getting in the firebox with the decreased draft/increased time air is in the box, and the paucity of ash confirms the theory that the problem is primarily that of fly ash being pulled into the air stream by increased draft.

With the damper, I can burn with the stove as is, without adding an ashpan.  Ultimately, I have to decide whether  to settle for a quick clean of the cat from time to time and continue to enjoy the appearance of the stove without the ashpan, or install the ashpan and perhaps only have to clean the cat at the end of the burning season.

I will install the ashpan as a trial for the next burning season, just for final confirmation that doing so will eliminate the issue.  However, I may remove it the following year, depending on how much more convenient I find both ash removal and (anticipated) lack of cat cleaning, as well as how much I find I notice/mind the changed appearance. 

I do find the stove very handsome as I presently have it installed.


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## rideau (Feb 9, 2015)

Woodstock tried for quite a while to modify the screen and the way the screen attached to the stove, to overcome the issues of the difficulty of cleaning the screen, and the screen's tendency to pull away from a tight fit, which to some extent defeated it's purpose.  They redesigned the screen and sent new screens out to those  with the early screens.  There were still issues.   They were unsuccessful is finding a reasonable solution to the issues, so discontinued the screen because its advantages were outweighed by its demerits. 

I would not call this discontinuing the screen because of time lost to dealing with customer issues with the screen, so much as accepting that one technologic advance that they had hoped to incorporate into the stove simply did not pan out. 

I would anticipate that if they feel that this ultimately is a technology they want in their stoves, and that provides a benefit they cannot otherwise obtain, that they are working on design changes that will make the screen more functional for future stoves.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

Oldman47 said:


> The quote I saw on this was that the benefit of the screen was not enough to warrant the service calls they were receiving. Too many issues for not enough benefit. They did not say that the screen was worthless but that it was not worth what it was costing them in customer issues.


My screen is working just fine and causing no problems.  I'm keeping it in.


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## rideau (Feb 9, 2015)

That's great.  I suspect the screen works best for those without the excessive draft/cat clogging issue.  It's probably when you have a lot of fly ash going through it that it becomes an issue.  I wish I could use mine.  Interested that yours is not an issue..  I may try reinstalling mine part way through the next season, after a trial with the ashpan alone.  I wish there was a wing nut set up at either end to hold the screen in place.  Are you using the original iteration of the screen, or the later one?


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## joshrohde (Feb 9, 2015)

This is a photo of the notice enclosed about the lack of the iconel screen with my PH when I installed it.


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 9, 2015)

rideau said:


> That's great.  I suspect the screen works best for those without the excessive draft/cat clogging issue.  It's probably when you have a lot of fly ash going through it that it becomes an issue.  I wish I could use mine.  Interested that yours is not an issue..  I may try reinstalling mine part way through the next season, after a trial with the ashpan alone.  I wish there was a wing nut set up at either end to hold the screen in place.  Are you using the original iteration of the screen, or the later one?


Woodstock sent me a later one with a new cat and a new cook top when the improved versions were available.  (Got to love those people).  I have never had a problem with the cat or the screen clogging.  I do have the ash pan and good but not excessive draft.  I burn mostly aged hickory and oak.  Only use Super Cedars to start fires, never newspaper.


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## toddnic (Feb 10, 2015)

Hello All, I just spoke with Woodstock Soapstone Company. They confirmed what has already been posted on here. There is no need to keep the screen installed in the upper portion of the firebox on the Progress Hybrid. If you want to continue to use it, that is fine also. They said that people starting fires with paper and other loose material is causing the screen to get clogged and hamper air flow.


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## wildcatbb (Feb 10, 2015)

Good deal! That screen is the most annoying part of the stove! I'll have to leave it out the next time it gets clogged.


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## joshrohde (Feb 11, 2015)

These are the photos of my cat. I'm going to send these to Woodstock to see what they think. It almost looks like someone used a tool to pry it out at some point and perhaps it warped after I started heating it.


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## rideau (Feb 11, 2015)

That does look like a compression injury rather than a warp.  It clearly does not go all the way to the back of the cat, so when the cat is installed with the non-damaged side toward the exit air, then the cat should not leak air, though flow at that point may be slightly reduced as air hits the narrowed side.  Do those cells that are compressed clog? 

As long as your seal is tight, I think that cat will be OK.  Is the gasket at the back of the cat chamber high enough to cover that gap?  If not, you'll be more apt to get some air flow under the cat, though the gasket that you wrap the cat with will likely stop air flow. 

It is recommended that you flip the cat with each cleaning, but if there is lesser performance or more clogging with it when the compressed area is toward the air flow, then I'd opt for just cleaning it well and simply rotating rather than flipping.  Rotating might help even wear on the cells a bit, since airflow is probably slightly different from one side to the other.


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## joshrohde (Feb 11, 2015)

I saw that the manual recommended rotating the cat but my cat has a big lip welded to the top of it which holds a rope gasket in place for the top half of the cat. I can't rotate my cat because of this. It only goes in one way. It isn't warped in the back so I don't think I'm getting any smoke leakage around the cat. The gasket on the front side only goes across the top behind the lip and an inch down the sides.


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## rideau (Feb 11, 2015)

So that is a change.  Interesting.  (Also, those two circular extensions are a change...not on my stove (top, either end of the cat)).  Makes it a bit easier to put that extra gasket around the cat.  I don't find it a problem as is, however.


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## joshrohde (Feb 11, 2015)

I figured it was a new addition for my stove as I read a lot of folks rotate their cats after cleaning and mine can not be rotated or flipped in any way due to the lip and circular extensions. I suppose they added the lip for the rope gasket on the top of the cat and the circular extensions to make removal of the cat for cleaning and inspection easier. It does appear like someone put the cat in and then pryed it out with a tool at some point. I think I would rather have the ability to flip or rotate the cat instead but I didn't get a choice when I bought the stove. I also didn't get a choice if I wanted the inconel screen shipped with my stove. The letter I posted a photo of a few posts back makes it seem like they discontinued the screen.


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## joshrohde (Feb 11, 2015)

I just got an email from woodstock and they are replacing my cat free of charge and requesting I send my current one back for inspection free of charge. I can't complain about Woodstock's excellent customer service.


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## rideau (Feb 11, 2015)

josh, if you call them quickly, before they ship the cat out, you may be able to get one without the new frame.  I got one recently without it.  Worth asking.  I don't have a problem taking my cat out, at all, without a frame to tug on.  It comes out easily.


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## joshrohde (Feb 11, 2015)

rideau said:


> josh, if you call them quickly, before they ship the cat out, you may be able to get one without the new frame.  I got one recently without it.  Worth asking.  I don't have a problem taking my cat out, at all, without a frame to tug on.  It comes out easily.



I just talked to Mike at woodstock about the catalysts they're using now and they all come in the style that mine is now to utilize a heavier rope gasket and for ease of removal. I guess rotating or flipping the catalyst is not something they tell people to do anymore now that the catalysts all come in this configuration with the upper lip and end extensions.


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## rideau (Feb 11, 2015)

good to know,  Thanks for posting.


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## fire_man (Feb 11, 2015)

joshrohde said:


> When the secondaries fire I would hear a extremely rapid metallic noise coming from the secondary intake.



How long were the rapid metallic noises lasting? 

I had a strange but and somewhat similar issue this year. I have burned the stove for 3 years and never heard a strange sound until the beginning of this 3d burning season. For the first 10 or so fires this year, the stove made a single, loud  "BANG!" every time it was warming up and sometimes when it was cooling down.  I swear it was coming from the ss baffle but was not sure. It sounded like the noise  a thin cookie sheet makes when being heated too quickly in an oven.

I know one of the bangs was the cooktop finally cracking, I was expecting that. But the other bangs were not. It has stopped - so whatever it was was gone for now.


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## rideau (Feb 11, 2015)

When that cooktop cracks it sounds just like a rifle shot.....surely makes you jump.


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## fire_man (Feb 11, 2015)

Yup that is an excellent description - sounds like a rifle shot.

I never did replace the cooktop - the crack just adds more character


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## joshrohde (Feb 12, 2015)

The noises would last anywhere from a couple seconds to a couple minutes. My stove still does it occasionally but it isn't pronounced anymore so it doesn't really bother me. Seems to be getting better with time.

I uploaded a video to YouTube of it making the rattling noise from 3 days after I installed the stove almost exactly 4 weeks ago.



The noise is by no means this severe anymore. It's barely noticeable now.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2015)

Sounds like a rattler crawled in there for the winter. Have you shared that with Woodstock?


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## joshrohde (Feb 12, 2015)

begreen said:


> Sounds like a rattler crawled in there for the winter. Have you shared that with Woodstock?



Yeah. I posted about this earlier. That is the video I sent Woodstock and they couldn't explain why it was happening. Ron said everyone just stood around scratching their heads after watching it. After four weeks the noise lessened to where it's hardly noiceable. I can always send the stove back after the heating season for a new one if it gets bad again.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2015)

In that case, who pays for the shipping to and from Woodstock?


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## joshrohde (Feb 12, 2015)

http://www.woodstove.com/prices-shipping?id=50

This is their guarantee on their website. It appears like they cover return shipping but don't refund the initial shipping costs. I'm not sure if they would cover shipping if I wanted to trade stoves. They have been great so far. They sent me some new studs to hold the back heat shield on for free as I over tightened one of the original studs and broke it. They sent me a free 18 inch rope gasket and are swapping out my cat for free also due to premature warping (I posted photos of it earlier). I don't think I'm going to have to resort to swapping out stoves anyway. The one I have is working great.


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## toddnic (Feb 13, 2015)

joshrohde said:


> http://www.woodstove.com/prices-shipping?id=50
> 
> This is their guarantee on their website. It appears like they cover return shipping but don't refund the initial shipping costs. I'm not sure if they would cover shipping if I wanted to trade stoves. They have been great so far. They sent me some new studs to hold the back heat shield on for free as I over tightened one of the original studs and broke it. They sent me a free 18 inch rope gasket and are swapping out my cat for free also due to premature warping (I posted photos of it earlier). I don't think I'm going to have to resort to swapping out stoves anyway. The one I have is working great.


I can't say enough good about Woodstock!  They also switched out my catalytic combustor because I USED my air compressor to "blow it out!" My mistake and they still took care of it. Glad that they are taking care of you also. I haven't had the same problem that you had with the popping noise. Weird.....  Hope it goes away permanently!


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## Tenn Dave (Feb 13, 2015)

toddnic said:


> I can't say enough good about Woodstock!  They also switched out my catalytic combustor because I USED my air compressor to "blow it out!" My mistake and they still took care of it. Glad that they are taking care of you also. I haven't had the same problem that you had with the popping noise. Weird.....  Hope it goes away permanently!


When I purchased my stove I had to delay installing it for 9 months.  Before I did the install I contacted Woodstock and asked if anything had changed.  They said there had been some design changes and improvements and sent me a new ash screen, cast iron cooktop, and cat combustor at no cost to me.  Customer care extraordinaire !


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## Air_cooled_driver (Feb 19, 2015)

So bizarre. It did it again tonight. I tried to take some pics to illustrate the concept. Stove full of wood that'd been baking in there for hours, large hot coal bed, and a sub-200 stove. I came down when I noticed how cold things were and saw this--opened up the stove and here's what I saw. The secondaries lit off almost immediately.

It's almost like someone hit "pause" on the fire.


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## Isaiah53 (Feb 19, 2015)

I have never operated a PH, but a couple of possibilities to consider:  My first thought is that maybe your cat is simply inactive or not working for whatever reason and as the stove cools and it needs to rely on the cat for heat production, it simply is not there and the stove cools.  It would basically be running as just as secondary burn stove.  Smoke out the chimney would probably support this idea.  My other thought is that your draft maybe marginal or you are trying to operate it at too low of an air setting for your set-up.  As the stove and flue temps are cooling, your draft and air flow are being reduced and the stove spirals down in a cooling cycle.  When you open the doors, you get a burst of air and heat to jump start stove with higher flue temps.  Not sure how well your flue system is insulated.  Could just try operating it on a higher air setting.


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## joshrohde (Feb 19, 2015)

I had that happen to me also a few times. I assumed it was a cat stall from me closing the stove down too fast. Usually I open the air and bypass for 5 minutes and the fire roars. I let it climb a to 350-400 then shut it back down and it's fine after that.

Edit: this has only happened to me at night before I go to bed so I haven't made a effort to go outside and look at the smoke coming out the chimney to support the idea of a cat stall. It's cold out there at night. I shut the stove down at 300 (and close my stove pipe damper to reduce draft so the wood lasts until morning. My draft is extremely strong when it's in the negative degrees without it) I think it's my fault for my impatience when reloading and shutting down the stove before bed.


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## fire_man (Feb 19, 2015)

Air_cooled_driver said:


> So bizarre. It did it again tonight. I tried to take some pics to illustrate the concept. Stove full of wood that'd been baking in there for hours, large hot coal bed, and a sub-200 stove. I came down when I noticed how cold things were and saw this--opened up the stove and here's what I saw. *The secondaries lit off almost immediately.*
> It's almost like someone hit "pause" on the fire.



This part makes no sense, because in order for the secondaries to fire, the internal firebox temp has to be >1000F. This is the temp that smoke starts to burn. A cat starts to burn it at half that temp, but secondaries in the firebox mean the box is hot.

I see this effect when I start a cold stove, all I get is "primary" wood flame until the stove gets really hot, then the gasses start to ignite and you get jets of flame and rolling ghost flames ie "secondaries".


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## Isaiah53 (Feb 19, 2015)

I suspect it is really just a primary burn from all the fresh air coming into the stove through the open door.  The smoke can certainly be ignited down in the coals where it is hotter and then propagate rapidly (flash) up into the secondary area that would make it look like the "secondaries" lit off.


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## Mitchhorne8 (Feb 22, 2015)

TJL said:


> I am in the midst of the third year with the Progress Hybrid having used a Fireview for 20+ years. I replaced the Fireview because the internals were distorted, probably from chronic overheating. My story includes some good news and some not-so-good news, but first I want to clearly state that Woodstock Soapstone Company is a fine organization with an excellent product and excellent customer service.
> 
> The mostly-good news:
> The stove is very attractive, easy to load, and relatively easy to empty ashes with the ash pan. It provides a lot of heat and can burn all night with enough coals by morning to restart by simply adding wood. Soapstone has much better heat retention qualities than an equivalent weight of steel. This means longer time to heat up, but also longer time to cool down. I have a lot of "storage mass" in the room with the stove (brick wall, tile floor over concrete) so even is the stove cools somewhat by morning, the floor and the room are never cold. I burn mainly black locust that is several years old (from storm damage mostly) and have a lot more of it to use. I normally operate the stove with the inlet damper just slightly open. Last year I kept it mostly closed and had a lot of hard soot buildup in the chimney liner at the end of the season.
> ...



Hey everyone, new member and 1st post. I have to say I was having same issues, and was getting very discouraged, so much so that I took to the Internet for help. Alas I found this thread and your post. after continuing to read along I seen everyones great tips, I picked a few and I'm happy to say my problems have been solved! I also would have  to take the stove apart and clean the Cat weekly to get any decent draft going, Now up here by Montreal We've had -30F since Dec! So letting the stove cool down in this climate was a very BIG pain. Now Im sure you tried this BUT what worked for me was really letting the fire BLAZE on bypass, somewhere in the upper 500's. Then I would engage and shut the damper down to only 10 percent open, wait  for 30 mins then shut it all the way. That along with really cleaning the ash every reload. (all tips I read on this thread. Thank everyone again) The Stove has REALLY been running like a train in this deep freeze!

 I think i wasn't getting the Cat hot Enough in the passed and engaging it too soon, that and along with not keeping as clean as I should have of ash between reloads the result was getting a build of ash in the Cat and possibly the air passages. I also removed the Rectangular section of the heat shield that sits right on the air intake.


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## TJL (Mar 6, 2015)

joshrohde said:


> If you're dead set on not using the catalyst then you should take it out and leave the bypass closed to increase the time the exhaust smoke is in the stove to try and get a little more heat out of it.



I've been thinking about this. Makes sense. Maybe next year.


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## TJL (Mar 6, 2015)

TJL said:


> I've been thinking about this. Makes sense. Maybe next year.



I should also add that I recently visited a local wood stove store to pick up some soot remover and discussed my cat cleaning issue with one of the owners and how I have essentially abandoned the cat. She told me that the (wood stove) industry is moving away from catalytic converters because of the maintenance (cleaning?) issues and replacement cost.

I sense that the main incentive for manufacturers to go with cats is to get EPA approval; the customer is, perhaps, a secondary consideration.

Any similar info from others?


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## rideau (Mar 7, 2015)

Just have to disagree strongly with that stove store owner.  If anything, exactly the opposite will happen.  To meet new EPA regs, all stove makers may have to go toward Catalytic converters.

Catalytic converters give you a cleaner burn, longer period of high heat output, more efficiency.   They are simple to use, simple to clean (as long as stove design makes access easy, Which Woodstock's does), and save you a lot of money, as their cost is far outweighed by the savings in wood.

Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes.  Takes much longer to bring a load of wood in.  Don't find this a big deal, and would not even if I had to do it once a week.  I generally check mine every other week, rather than let it get to a point where draft is compromised.    And don't need to put the stove out of service to clean the cat.  I do it just before reloading after burning the coals down, with no issues.


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## TheRambler (Mar 7, 2015)

I have been checking my cat about every 3-4 weeks. Only a very light ash accumulation so far. I can open the stove, clean the cat, and close it all back up in 3-4 minutes.


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## rdust (Mar 7, 2015)

TJL said:


> I should also add that I recently visited a local wood stove store to pick up some soot remover and discussed my cat cleaning issue with one of the owners and how I have essentially abandoned the cat. She told me that the (wood stove) industry is moving away from catalytic converters because of the maintenance (cleaning?) issues and replacement cost.



It's too bad she's miss informed, I'd hope someone in the industry would be more in touch with what is going on.  I can't wait until most/all the stoves she's selling has a cat in them in order to meet the new EPA requirements.  I'm sure her tune will change a bit at that point.    Education is going to be the key for people to successfully burn cat stoves.  You simply can't abuse them like you can a non cat.(have to be a responsible burner)  

I'm not a WS owner but a cat stove owner and it's unlikely I'll ever own a non cat stove again.  I brush mine or vacuum it once or twice a season and never have issues.  I know the PH requires more maintenance than that but sounds like it's a pretty simple task.


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## joshrohde (Mar 7, 2015)

I clean my catalyst with a dyson pet hair vacuum. It has a soft bristle brush attachment for the hose and it works pretty well. It only takes 5 minutes every few weeks. I do it in the morning when the stove is cooler.


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## begreen (Mar 7, 2015)

Must be a cat hair vacuum.


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## joshrohde (Mar 7, 2015)

It's just the cheap little attachment that came with the vacuum. It's not the nice one my wife brushes the Germans with.


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## joshrohde (Mar 7, 2015)

TJL said:


> I've been thinking about this. Makes sense. Maybe next year.


That's what I would do if I decided to not use the cat. I'm a fan of the cat though. Mine has been performing well but it's still new.


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## Tenn Dave (Mar 7, 2015)

rdust said:


> It's too bad she's miss informed, I'd hope someone in the industry would be more in touch with what is going on.  I can't wait until most/all the stoves she's selling has a cat in them in order to meet the new EPA requirements.  I'm sure her tune will change a bit at that point.    Education is going to be the key for people to successfully burn cat stoves.  You simply can't abuse them like you can a non cat.(have to be a responsible burner)
> 
> I'm not a WS owner but a cat stove owner and it's unlikely I'll ever own a non cat stove again.  I brush mine or vacuum it once or twice a season and never have issues.  I know the PH requires more maintenance than that but sounds like it's a pretty simple task.


I have the PH and only have to clean my cat once a year at the end of the season.


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## TJL (Mar 7, 2015)

*"Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes."*

Not even close. Perhaps you and I have different stoves. My PH was received/installed March 2012. To clean the cat:
1. carefully remove and place on a blanket, towel (soft surface, careful not to chip) three soapstone pieces.
2. remove the metal insert and associated gasket, set aside
3. remove cat and associated gasket
4. get and setup vacuum
5. vacuum cat (and stove internals while I have the vacuum)
6. reinstall cat and carefully insert gasket with screwdriver.
7. reinstall metal insert and gasket
8, carefully replace three soapstone pieces (careful not to chip)
9. cleanup towel blanket, which is dirty from the various pieces​
For whatever reason, I need to do this weekly or the cat plugs. I clean the screen weekly and never open the door unless the cat is in bypass. From what I have read, some have cat plugging problems, some don't; I am in the former category. For what it's worth Woodstock has discontinued use of the inconel screen. This would only worsen my problem.

In three years I have yet to observe any performance improvement from the cat, although I have do not deny that emissions are less.
Next year, I will probably remove the cat and the screen and operate the stove with the bypass closed to force the exhaust gas through more of the internals which should somewhat improve heat transfer.

Further interesting reading: https://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hocats.htm

Thanks for your comments.


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## begreen (Mar 7, 2015)

TJL, that would drive me nuts. What has Woodstock's response been?


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## TheRambler (Mar 7, 2015)

TJL said:


> *"Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes."*
> 
> Not even close. Perhaps you and I have different stoves. My PH was received/installed March 2012. To clean the cat:
> 1. carefully remove and place on a blanket, towel (soft surface, careful not to chip) three soapstone pieces.
> ...




I do basically the same as you, except i dont have to even touch a gasket... Maybe model year differences. I could take the cat gasket off but it usually sits on its lip just fine during the cleaning. It literally takes me 3-4 minutes including all the steps. Cant see it taking any longer than 5 unless your vacuum is kept somewhere out of the way and hard to get to.

Having to clean it every week sounds excessive honestly. Can tou post a picture of what it looks like after a week? Do you have the ashpan?


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## rdust (Mar 7, 2015)

begreen said:


> TJL, that would drive me nuts. What has Woodstock's response been?



I agree, no way I'd want to deal with it.  As stated above some have issues some do not, some think it's from too much draft others not enough.  

Us BK guys only have to deal with the stinky/smokey smell.


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## fire_man (Mar 7, 2015)

TJL said:


> *"Opening the top of the PH, removing the cat, brushing it, replacing it takes all of five to ten minutes."*
> 
> Not even close. Perhaps you and I have different stoves. My PH was received/installed March 2012. To clean the cat:
> 1. carefully remove and place on a blanket, towel (soft surface, careful not to chip) three soapstone pieces.
> ...



TJL - why do you have to remove any gaskets?

I have one of the early stoves like yours so it should be very similar.

When you remove the 3 stones, there is a cast iron griddle that rests on a gasket which should be GLUED to the stove.
When you remove the cat, there is  gasket GLUED to the stove. Some people stuff another gasket around the cat just to make sure it's sealed tight, but that takes about 60 seconds. I  don't understand the "insert and gasket " you are replacing.

I had a clogging cat problem but it was due to not running the air control wide enough - the cat was not lighting off properly and clogged. All I had to do was never shut the air completely and no more clogs.


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## TJL (Mar 7, 2015)

First, thanks for all of your comments. I'll try and respond:

*TJL, that would drive me nuts. What has Woodstock's response been?*
Woodstock acknowledged that cleaning the cat every two weeks or so is not uncommon, although every week for me.

*I could take the cat gasket off but it usually sits on its lip just fine during the cleaning.*
My cat gasket is loose (not attached) and sits on top of the cat, wrapping part way around the sides. It takes a screw driver or similar to reinsert it; not a huge deal, just another step.

*Can tou post a picture of what it looks like after a week? Do you have the ashpan?*
No picture, since I don't plan on taking it apart again until the end of the season, however it is usually about 75% blocked with fine dust (not creosote) which is easily removed with a dusting brush attached to the vacuum. This blockage prevents any acceptable draft. Vacuuming the cat is easy; taking the stove apart every week, not so much, especially since I want the stove cool, i.e. no smoke entering the room. I do have the ashpan and am very happy with it, although I need to empty it every week, not the two weeks or so indicated by Woodstock. Obviously this is a function of how much wood is burned. I burn black locust 4+ years old.

*... there is a cast iron griddle that rests on a gasket. I had a clogging cat problem but it was due to not running the air control wide enough - the cat was not lighting off properly and clogged. All I had to do was never shut the air completely and no more clogs.*
I don't have the griddle. My gaskets are as described. The gaskets are not the problem. Letting the stove cool enough and taking it apart every week is the problem. Woodstock indicated that the damper could be completely shut and there would still be enough draft to support good combustion. I did this last year and found quite a bit carbon (hard, brittle but not sticky) when I cleaned the chimney and stove pipe, maybe a gallon or so. This year I NEVER have closed the damper all the way - always 20% or so open. I'll see what the soot situation is next month when I clean the chimney. Nevertheless, I am convinced that closing the damper all the way is a bad idea. The material clogging my cat is not creosote or anything combustible; it is very fine ash that has apparently gotten through (or around) the inconel screen.

I found the following on an earlier post (above):
*I also would have to take the stove apart and clean the Cat weekly to get any decent draft going, Now up here by Montreal We've had -30F since Dec! So letting the stove cool down in this climate was a very BIG pain. Now Im sure you tried this BUT what worked for me was really letting the fire BLAZE on bypass, somewhere in the upper 500's. Then I would engage and shut the damper down to only 10 percent open, wait for 30 mins then shut it all the way. That along with really cleaning the ash every reload. (all tips I read on this thread. Thank everyone again) The Stove has REALLY been running like a train in this deep freeze!

I think i wasn't getting the Cat hot Enough in the passed and engaging it too soon, that and along with not keeping as clean as I should have of ash between reloads the result was getting a build of ash in the Cat and possibly the air passages. I also removed the Rectangular section of the heat shield that sits right on the air intake.
*
This is interesting. Getting the stovetop temp to 500F before engaging is about 2x what Woodstock indicates and is close to the temp at which the secondary air should fire (remember internal temp is about 2x the stovetop temp).

Also, *cleaning the ash every reload .... *I never really thought about that, however I don't normally wait to reload until all the wood has gone to ash so raking the ash (to the ashpan) every reload would not be practical.

Also,* removed the Rectangular section of the heat shield that sits right on the air intake.*
I don't see how this would impact cat plugging, but it could compromise safety.

Thanks again for all your comments.


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## weatherguy (Mar 8, 2015)

> This is interesting. Getting the stovetop temp to 500F before engaging is about 2x what Woodstock indicates and is close to the temp at which the secondary air should fire (remember internal temp is about 2x the stovetop temp).



I think he's referring to internal temps not the temp on the thermometer, the thermometer reads 1/2 of the internal temp.
I burned 7 ash for weeks with no problems then I switched to some 4 year seasoned oak and I started having the cat plugging problem. I had to clean it every two weeks. Just for kicks I switched back to 2 year sugar maple and went a few weeks without clogging. Not sure why the oak caused problems, it was seasoned below 20%, my theory was some of it was punky on the outside, I had it stacked for 4 years in the same spot, only covered it the last two, the stuff on the edges had the punk, the stuff in the middle was fine. Another thing I learned is if you stack your wood in one spot for 4 years the mice and chipmunks start building condominiums, it was ridiculous the amount of debris I had in that stack.


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## TJL (Mar 8, 2015)

_*I think he's referring to internal temps not the temp on the thermometer.*_ 
Makes sense. I always had the stovetop above 250F (500F internal) before engaging.

*I burned 7 ash for weeks with no problems then I switched to some 4 year seasoned oak and I started having the cat plugging problem.*
You may be onto something. My black locust is 4-6 years old, covered in the winter. The bark is loose and somewhat crumbly. Maybe that is a factor. In any case that is what I have and will have for the foreseeable future. Thanks.


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## TheRambler (Mar 8, 2015)

I don't know, 500F mighy actually be the stovetop temp. I doubt he was measuring internal firebox temps... Never seen anyone do that. 

For me i found letting the stovetop get to 400F before closing the bypass yields the best results. I usually throw in 1 small split on the coals and let her rip until shes north of 375, and then i load the rest of the splits and bring to 400 and close the bypass. I feel i get better cat light off and much better heat output.  i went from having a peak of 450ish with a cruise of 400ish to a peak of 650 and a cruise of 500-550. In both cases i got about the same burn times, maybe a little longer with the lower temps


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## Tenn Dave (Mar 8, 2015)

Seems to me that this has something to do with one of the variables in your setup.  I have one of the early model PHs with the ash pan and 20+ feet of chimney on an outside wall and the damn thing can burn any type wood with no cat clog whatsoever.  I only clean my cat at the end of the season and it only has a small amount of dust on it.  Perhaps the PH is not the best stove for your particular situation.  Not all stoves work their best in every application.


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## Tenn Dave (Mar 8, 2015)

rdust said:


> I agree, no way I'd want to deal with it.  As stated above some have issues some do not, some think it's from too much draft others not enough.
> 
> Us BK guys only have to deal with the stinky/smokey smell.


Well maybe WS should include a Dustbuster with their stoves and BK a respirator or ham smoking kit with their stoves.


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## fire_man (Mar 8, 2015)

TJL said:


> Woodstock indicated that the damper could be completely shut and there would still be enough draft to support good combustion. I did this last year and found quite a bit carbon (hard, brittle but not sticky) when I cleaned the chimney and stove pipe, maybe a gallon or so. This year I NEVER have closed the damper all the way - always 20% or so open. I'll see what the soot situation is next month when I clean the chimney. Nevertheless, I am convinced that closing the damper all the way is a bad idea.



Woodstock also originally told me it was ok to close the draft completely - until they did the rebuild and saw signs it was not burning hot enough. They told me to burn hotter (more air) and so far the cat has not clogged. Also, the mid year flue cleaning produced MUCH LESS soot.

The only time I will close it down all the way now is *after* it's already been burning hot for a while (30 minutes or so) *and* the secondaries have been firing hard and I don't need good heat.


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## rideau (Mar 8, 2015)

One should not be removing any gasket except the one loosely wrapped around the cat, that comes out with the cat when you pull the cat.  You apparently never upgraded to the cast iron griddle?  It's a bit quicker to remove than the steel plate.  Removing the soapstone is not a big deal, and does not require any special care.  Just don't bang it around.  I don't understand why it would get a towel at all dirty-the soapstone isn't dirty and nothing comes off it. I put mine down on any chair or sofa.  I lift it all the time for cooking, and take pieces off to use as footwarmers, bed warmers.  It's easy and quick to remove, and doesn't need to be coddled, just not slammed around.   I clean the cat consistently at about a 250 degree stovetop.  I get no smoke coming into the room.  But, on each load I completely burn the load to a small coal bed as a regular practice.  Burning a lot of  bark, especially if it is at all moist or degraded, will likely produce more smoke than the cat can handle during the early part of the burn, and also make it harder to get a complete burn before reloading. If you are not burning your loads down pretty completely, you probably greatly exacerbate your cat issue by having lots of fly ash in the firebox.   Cleaning the cat is not difficult or time consuming.  I could write a list about the steps of bringing wood in, or emptying ashes and dealing with them, but the fact remains that cleaning the cat takes less time than doing either or those tasks, that we do all the time if we burn wood.  For the advantages that this stove gives in burn time and heat output, cleaning the cat is not a significant issue.  I definitely agree that it would be nice to not have to do it, but it would also be nice to not have to empty ashes or bring in wood.  Over the years I've had the PH, I've worked to figure out which wood works best for me, how to burn to get least ashes and smallest coal bed, and how to reduce ash build up on my cat.  I have been pleasantly successful with all this, while learning better burning techniques, and continue to learn and improve.  If you want to use your cat, we are all willing to jump in with suggestions of things we have tried that have helped. 
If the bother to you outweighs the advantages of the stove, there are plenty of folks who'd like a slightly used PH.
If you want to sacrifice the efficiency of the PH and burn with it as a secondary rather than a hybrid stove, it is probably fine to do so (I'd run it by Woodstock and at least inquire of maximum temps they'd like to see you consistently burning at if you elect to do this).
You are probably going to be running it hotter, more often than Woodstock anticipated if you run it this way all the time.


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## rideau (Mar 8, 2015)

TJL said:


> I am in the midst of the third year with the Progress Hybrid having used a Fireview for 20+ years. I replaced the Fireview because the internals were distorted, probably from chronic overheating.
> 
> Last year I kept it mostly closed and had a lot of hard soot buildup in the chimney liner at the end of the season.
> 
> ...




I heated with a Fireview for 7 years prior to the PH, and never had any build up in the cat.  The fact that you had enough issue with a fireview to decide to stop using the cat is interesting.  Also interesting that the Fireview internals were distorted after twenty years, probably from chronic overheating.  This brings to question basic burning issues. 

Sounds to me like you just want a secondary burn stove, and seemingly a secondary burn Woodstock.


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## TJL (Mar 8, 2015)

rideau said:


> I heated with a Fireview for 7 years prior to the PH, and never had any build up in the cat.  The fact that you had enough issue with a fireview to decide to stop using the cat is interesting.  Also interesting that the Fireview internals were distorted after twenty years, probably from chronic overheating.  This brings to question basic burning issues.
> 
> Sounds to me like you just want a secondary burn stove, and seemingly a secondary burn Woodstock.



I abandoned the cat on the Fireview not because of plugging, but because I didn't see the value in periodic replacement. However, that cat was much easier to access. The distortion of the internals was probably my fault but I'm not complaining after 24 years of use.


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## TJL (Mar 8, 2015)

*You apparently never upgraded to the cast iron griddle?*
The cast iron griddle is not an upgrade. It is an option which I did not want since I have no desire to cook on the stove.

The bottom of my soapstone is dirty, thus the towel. Handling 250F soapstone is not something I would do. I wait until the soapstone is cool enough to handle without gloves. Yes, there is a lot of ash in the firebox. Once a week, I let the fire go out over night. The next morning, I hoe the ash into the ash pan (most of the ash does not fall into the pan on its own) and empty the pan. The soapstone is usually still too hot to touch and there are usually enough coals remaining in the firebox to restart the fire. None of this is particularly troublesome.

Bottom line for me: The extra effort to clean the cat every week has NOT resulted in any observable improvement in stove performance vs running with the bypass open. Maybe my cat is no good, but WS did send me a replacement early in the game when I complained (kudos to them). Woodstock Soapstone is a fine company.

*If the bother to you outweighs the advantages of the stove, there are plenty of folks who'd like a slightly used PH.*
What gives you the impression I wish to get rid of the stove? I am perfectly content to operate it as described above and in the previous posts. Its a good stove.

*... I'd run it by Woodstock and at least inquire of maximum temps they'd like to see you consistently burning at if you elect to do this). You are probably going to be running it hotter, more often than Woodstock anticipated if you run it this way all the time.*
I ALWAYS operate the stove well within the optimal range indicated on the stovetop thermometer (255-675F). It does not overheat in bypass mode. It goes below 255F only when the wood is consumed. I adjust the damper to ALWAYS keep both the stovetop and stovepipe temperatures above the recommended minimums of 255 and 235F respectively with lower temperatures for extended burns, higher temperatures if I need more heat. None of this is difficult.


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## rideau (Mar 9, 2015)

Good to hear you don't feel you are overheating the PH. You indicated you felt you had overheated the Fireview a lot. 

The PH is a beautiful stove.  Glad you are enjoying it.


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## TheRambler (Mar 9, 2015)

TJL said:


> *You apparently never upgraded to the cast iron griddle?*
> The cast iron griddle is not an upgrade. It is an option which I did not want since I have no desire to cook on the stove.
> 
> The bottom of my soapstone is dirty, thus the towel. Handling 250F soapstone is not something I would do. I wait until the soapstone is cool enough to handle without gloves. Yes, there is a lot of ash in the firebox. Once a week, I let the fire go out over night. The next morning, I hoe the ash into the ash pan (most of the ash does not fall into the pan on its own) and empty the pan. The soapstone is usually still too hot to touch and there are usually enough coals remaining in the firebox to restart the fire. None of this is particularly troublesome.
> ...



Have you tried hoeing/raking the ash into the ashpan at every reload? I usually do a very quick raking of the coals at every reload so that the majority of the ash falls into the ash pan. It ony takes a few seconds, and would probably help keep the cat much cleaner since not nearly as much fly ash would be sucked up during operation. I empy my ashpan using it in this manner about every 1-1.5 weeks. And my cat stays remarkably clean, though i do check it every few week.

What is under the top soapstone since you dont have the cooktop? I havnt seen one without it. Just trying to figure out how the bottom of your soapstone is dirty.

I just use my hearth gloves to pick up the soapstone pieces, and i place them on my hearth off to the side if i have to open the stovetop. I try to be gentle with them, but am not really afraid of cracking or chiping them.


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## TJL (Mar 9, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> Have you tried hoeing/raking the ash into the ashpan at every reload? I usually do a very quick raking of the coals at every reload so that the majority of the ash falls into the ash pan. It ony takes a few seconds, and would probably help keep the cat much cleaner since not nearly as much fly ash would be sucked up during operation. I empy my ashpan using it in this manner about every 1-1.5 weeks. And my cat stays remarkably clean, though i do check it every few week.
> 
> What is under the top soapstone since you dont have the cooktop? I havnt seen one without it. Just trying to figure out how the bottom of your soapstone is dirty.
> 
> I just use my hearth gloves to pick up the soapstone pieces, and i place them on my hearth off to the side if i have to open the stovetop. I try to be gentle with them, but am not really afraid of cracking or chiping them.



I see your point but I don't let the fire die down low enough to easily rake the ash. When the fire dies down, I add more wood. Per Woodstock maintenance pdf:
*6. Avoid long, smoldering fires. Again, the catalytic combustor is critical here. Hot firebox temperatures (with the*​*stove top thermometer in the 400-6000F range) will produce more complete combustion and maintain proper
catalytic activity.
*
I try to keep the stovetop above 255F (recommended). To do this, I need to add wood before the bottom can be easily raked. Once a week I let the fire die down enough to completely rake all of the ash small enough to fall through the grate. This takes 5 minutes or so and the pan is pretty much completely full when done. There are usually enough hot coals left to restart. If not, I use a fire starter. I suppose I could do this more often but then the house would be cold more often.

Under the soapstone is a metal plate with a removable gasket on the front side. This plate does not completely seal the soapstone from the flue gas, thus some soot accumulates on the bottom of the soapstone and it is "dirty." It is not a problem.

Thanks for your comments.


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2015)

You're a very patient person TJL.


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## TJL (Mar 9, 2015)

An earlier poster stated:
*I clean the cat consistently at about a 250 degree stovetop. I get no smoke coming into the room.*

I responded:
*Handling 250F soapstone is not something I would do. I wait until the soapstone is cool enough to handle without gloves.*

From Woodstock:
*COMBUSTOR CLEANING HOW TO:
1. Be sure the fire is out and the stove is cold. 
*
Also, today I (permanently?) removed the inconel screen, per Woodstock's latest design. One more step to simplify maintenance.


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## TheRambler (Mar 10, 2015)

Your stove doesnt need to be cool to rake the coals. I do it frequently with a stovetop 300-400 on really cold days. On those days the coals can be like 4-5 inches deep. 

I may be wrong, but i would think part of your problem is the excess fly ash being sucked up into the cat. Raking at every reload keeps the ash either in the bottom or in the ash pan depending on the stove.

And that blurb in the manual about waitibg for the stone to be cold is purely for liability.


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## TJL (Mar 10, 2015)

TheRambler said:


> Your stove doesnt need to be cool to rake the coals. I do it frequently with a stovetop 300-400 on really cold days. On those days the coals can be like 4-5 inches deep.
> 
> I may be wrong, but i would think part of your problem is the excess fly ash being sucked up into the cat. Raking at every reload keeps the ash either in the bottom or in the ash pan depending on the stove.
> 
> And that blurb in the manual about waitibg for the stone to be cold is purely for liability.



I'm not sure about that. The act of raking (hoeing) entrains a lot more ash, i.e. creates a lot more dust, than normal burning; but raking, or hoeing, is the only way I know to get the ash into the pan, which still beats shoveling ash into a metal container.


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## TheRambler (Mar 10, 2015)

TJL said:


> I'm not sure about that. The act of raking (hoeing) entrains a lot more ash, i.e. creates a lot more dust, than normal burning; but raking, or hoeing, is the only way I know to get the ash into the pan, which still beats shoveling ash into a metal container.



You should have the stove in bypass when raking, so the dust isnt an issue for the cat. If your not in bypass then that is a problem


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## TJL (Mar 10, 2015)

Agreed (and, yes, I do that), but even with the bypass open, ash can settle on the surface below the cat and be re-entrained when the bypass is closed. See drawing. Nevertheless, I'm going to continue to do some experimenting with what's left of the season.


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## TheRambler (Mar 10, 2015)

TJL said:


> Agreed (and, yes, I do that), but even with the bypass open, ash can settle on the surface below the cat and be re-entrained when the bypass is closed. See drawing. Nevertheless, I'm going to continue to do some experimenting with what's left of the season.



A very very minimal amount IMO. My vote is that your better off raking at every reload. I would say give it a shot and see if it makes a difference for you. Your already having to clean once a week so i can't possibly imagine it getting worse than that!


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## rideau (Mar 11, 2015)

Agree with Rambler, and you will find if you do rake the coals between each fire, they never get deep enough to be a pain to rake, or take much time to rake. And your fires will burn more completely with a smaller ashpile in the box.  I suspect the fire gets more air form below when the ashes are less.  I'd suggest raking a channel from front to back in the center, making sure the air inlet under the glass is unobstructed, before laying your firewood.   Doing this gives me better burns, definitely cuts down on the ash on my combuster.  Anything that reduces the amount of fly ash in the firebox does so, especially if one has a strong draft.


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## Mitchhorne8 (Mar 15, 2015)

Hey everyone, anyone have a suggestion on cleaning to improve "Air flow' when I 1st got the stove it seemed blow a jet of air into the bottom of the stack, now that has seems to have gone away. Ive read references to "the air hole" below the glass? anyone know if this spot exists? I've melted by brush, vacuumed, blown air into the air intakes. But still seems clogged. any suggestions are welcome. 
'


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## Flamestead (Mar 15, 2015)

Mitchhorne8 said:


> Hey everyone, anyone have a suggestion on cleaning to improve "Air flow' when I 1st got the stove it seemed blow a jet of air into the bottom of the stack, now that has seems to have gone away. Ive read references to "the air hole" below the glass? anyone know if this spot exists? I've melted by brush, vacuumed, blown air into the air intakes. But still seems clogged. any suggestions are welcome.
> '



Between the andirons, an inch or so up from the bottom of the firebox, is an air hole. It is smaller diameter than a pencil. I occasionally suck ash out of it using my ash vac. Woodstock told me I could put a bent wire in there and spin it around just to be sure no ash was clogging the hole. I try to keep the ash accumulation down/away from that hole.


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## Flamestead (Mar 15, 2015)

Regarding the ash raking and cat cleaning conversation above, I "rake" every reload with a bent (L-shaped) poker. Often I am raking with 3"-4" of coals in the firebox.

I clean the cat with the stove "cool" but not cold. I read the Woodstock instructions to say don't be foolish and burn yourself trying to do this, but I do it anyway. I have used one match since December. My biggest need to cool the firebox occasionally is to clean the glass.


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## Rearscreen (Mar 15, 2015)

It's funny, of all of the stoves that I have owned over my lifetime, I have been burned by this one more than any other. Am I getting older? Am I getting stupider? I have also never owned a pair of gloves to load, this one I do. And even then, I get burned. I kind of like it though. Makes me realize that I'm still alive.


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## Oldman47 (Mar 15, 2015)

We are all getting older Rearscreen.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 15, 2015)

Got a burn on the right arm and the left arm this year. What is that about? Long way to the back of that firebox and too long a way to my brain anymore.


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## weatherguy (Mar 16, 2015)

It's easy to get burned with the PH, loading with the small side door I've burned my forearms a few times, I have a permanent callous burn on the side of my right thumb from setting the air without a glove.


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## joshrohde (Mar 16, 2015)

I've burnt  my hands and arms a few times on the PH loading it without gloves. The door is a bit small if I try to completely fill the firbox. Otherwise the door is adequate size for regular loading and doesn't bother me much. My old cast iron stove would give 3rd degree burns from touching it for a fraction of a second and the PH hasn't done a lot of damage. I still have scars on my arms from loading that old stove in the middle of the night when I feel like I'm still half asleep. The PH doesn't require me to wake up in the middle of the night to add wood. I should know better being a welder and working with hot metals to use a bit more safety but sometimes I try my luck without  gloves. The PH has yet to come even close to burning me as bad as the cast iron stove and that's just because I was careless. I find the PH feels much safer to load and operate in regards to getting burnt. My biggest gripe for getting burnt would be that little movable smoke baffle on the top of the door. I could remove it but I find it is helpful to keep smoke from spilling into the room when the weather is warmer and my draft is reduced. I suppose it is pretty nice that its hinged for loading very large splits or completely filling the firebox. burns are easily avoidable with proper protection with this stove. The firebox was so deep on my old stove (with a smaller loading door than the PH) that if I tried loading a small split all the way to the back that my gloves weren't long enough sticking my arms in there. occasionally I would bump my bare arms into the sides of the loading door doing this and would get a severe burn. The PH is much easier to load and I don't have to reach way into it. I'm still very happy with my PH and it far exceeded my expectations in almost every way.


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## Mitchhorne8 (Jul 17, 2015)

I really want to thank everyone one this thread.  I'm a young father with 4 children, and I like I'm sure most of you where,  I sometimes struggle paying the bills.  So when I spent more than I should have on the PH my wife was nervous. I assured her that since firewood is in abundance here it would pay for its self in one very northern winters worth of heating bills.  Well we had the worst winter in 100yrs and I couldn't seem to get this thing heating the house properly, I was freaking out cause other option was electric heat which would run 500$ a month, which we couldn't afford!  Well thanks to all you great ppl and awesome tips, I was able Identify with some of your problems and cherry pick from the solutions, since they too where in abundance.  1 late night of reading was all it took,  and the next morning I had that baby cruising at 400f stove top for 10 hrs straight and wife so excited on the phone, as I was at work and couldn't stick around to see if would stay hot. Apparently I was just engaging the cat way too soon,  I would engage at 450 and it would cool withing 45min to 200f. I needed to get the whole stack engulfed top to bottom before I should engage. Plus I picked up a bunch of other great tips.  I love this stove so much it's mid July and I can't wait to fire PJ (pride N joy)  up! Thanks again everyone! You guys save my bacon!


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## fire_man (Jul 17, 2015)

Mitch

I'm glad it worked out but your solution puzzles me. If you were engaging the cat at 450F (I assume that's the stovetop temp and not  a cat probe temp) then no way is that "too soon" as you say. Where and how are you measuring that temp?


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## Mitchhorne8 (Jul 17, 2015)

It was stove top.  And yes that's exactly what was stumping me.  But what was happening was only the bottom few splits would be burning And once I engaged and lowered the intake, the top 2/3 never really caught fire, if at all. So the smoke that would feed the cat would only be 30 % of what it could be.  The entire load would burn right down, but basically only one split at a time. Which would be fine in a shoulder season, but in Dec and - 20 it wasn't cutting it.  So the solution was to med intake for about an hour,  so even the top splits where black and flaming, then engage lower intake to 15 % open For 30 mins then close all the way.  Runs like a train at 400 stove top for 8 hrs or so.


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## begreen (Jul 17, 2015)

Partially seasoned wood? Did the moisture content of the wood get measured?


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## Mitchhorne8 (Jul 17, 2015)

2 and 3 yr maple.  I didn't get I measured


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## fire_man (Jul 18, 2015)

Medium intake for an hour and 30 minutes engaged at 15% is  a very long time. Have you talked with WS about this? It seems to me the air intake flapper has  problem.


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## Mitchhorne8 (Jul 18, 2015)

I have not. But if you guys think it seems too long, I will give them a call


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## rdust (Jul 18, 2015)

fire_man said:


> Medium intake for an hour and 30 minutes engaged at 15" is  a very long time. Have you talked with WS about this? It seems to me the air intake flapper has  problem.




I doubt it's the stove, it's probably just the learning curve along with wood or a chimney set up that's not ideal.  I'd suggest not closing it down all the way, I haven't read too many IS users that can close it to 0 and not have issues.



Mitchhorne8 said:


> So the solution was to med intake for about an hour,  so even the top splits where black and flaming, then engage lower intake to 15 % open For 30 mins* then close all the way*.  Runs like a train at 400 stove top for 8 hrs or so.



What is your loading process from a cold start and loading from a coal bed?  Maybe we can help tweak a thing or two.


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## fire_man (Jul 18, 2015)

If I understood properly, Mitch was operating the stove without the cat engaged for the first hour after loading. If that was loaded on an established hot bed of coals it's WAY tool long to operate without the cat (even if it was from a stone cold start it's too long). Begreen is right, unseasoned wood could definitely explain the problem.

Can you tell us what type wood, and how long it was split and stacked?


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## Mitchhorne8 (Jul 18, 2015)

It would be on a bed of coals with 2-3 yr seasoned maple, I also get good draft.  I also Dubble check with my wife since she did most of the reloads,  she says it was more like 30mins to 45min before engaging the cat.


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## fire_man (Jul 18, 2015)

I found the magic cure for my problem with the cat not lighting off properly was to engage the cat after the stovetop reached 300F but  keep the air supply open really wide - I think around 40% for about 10 minutes, then lower it. Some persons lower the draft in stages but I don't.


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