# Got the Vaccine



## Medic21

Howdy all.  Since this vaccine is getting ready to roll out to the public if it hasn’t in your area already I’ll share my experience so far.  
Got my first on 2 1/2 weeks ago.  Second is scheduled for Tuesday.  Although I’m disappointed the super powers haven’t started, putting my money in shot #2, I did not have any adverse reactions outside of a sore arm for 24 hours.  While that is worse than any of the other vaccines I have gotten it really wasn’t that bad.  

This isn’t meant to be political at all.  I’ll update it after Tuesday when I get the second one.  Most of my colleagues and friends that have gotten the second now reported fatigue for 24 hours and that was it.


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## paulnlee

Was it mandatory given your EMT status?


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## Medic21

paulnlee said:


> Was it mandatory given your EMT status?


No, I know no one that is mandating it In this area.  The reason being that if it was mandated by an employer while on emergency approval the employer would be open to Workman Comp claims for any problems.


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## jatoxico

Got the first shot too right after XMas. Same experience, sore arm but that was about it. Following the shot there was a 15 min observation period. They extend that to 30 if you have a history of allergic reactions.


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## festerw

My little bro and sister in law both got their second dose this week.

Both first dose only experienced sore arms similar to tetanus vaccines.

Second dose he had the same arm pain and nothing else. She had the arm pain, fever, muscle aches, headache, and chills. Symptoms lasted 2 full days.

One of their coworkers experienced similar but for 4 days.

He's mid 30s, she's mid 20s neither with any health problems.


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## begreen

No shot yet. Hoping it will happen soon. FWIW, I got a flu shot last fall. That gave me a sore arm for a day or two.


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## jatoxico

The mRNA COVID vaccines represent a new generation in the evolution of vaccine technology. If they fulfill their promise they should be more adaptable and as we've seen, can be developed very quickly.


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## Medic21

jatoxico said:


> The mRNA COVID vaccines represent a new generation in the evolution of vaccine technology. If they fulfill their promise they should be more adaptable and as we've seen, can be developed very quickly.


They used this same technology to develop the HPV vaccine years ago.


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## jatoxico

Medic21 said:


> They used this same technology to develop the HPV vaccine years ago.


I didn't know that. I thought the COVID ones were among the first.


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## jatoxico

So a quick look says HPV vaccine uses recombinant DNA technology not mRNA. Maybe I'm missing something?


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## Medic21

jatoxico said:


> So a quick look says HPV vaccine uses recombinant DNA technology not mRNA. Maybe I'm missing something?











						Human Papillomavirus Vaccine-Induced Cytokine Messenger RNA Expression in Vaccinated Women - PubMed
					

The objective of this work was to evaluate the influence of human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccination on peripheral blood mononuclear cell (PBMC) proliferation and cytokine gene transcription. PBMCs isolated after HPV immunization were incubated with HPV vaccine, phytohemagglutinin, or buffer. Cell...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## jatoxico

Induced mRNA's as measure of protein production is not the same thing as an mRNA vaccine. Prior to the approval of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines the CDC website said the below. It's still up on the site.

*mRNA Vaccines Are New, But Not Unknown*
There are currently no licensed mRNA vaccines in the United States. However, researchers have been studying them for decades.

Understanding and Explaining mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC


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## mcdougy

Wife got the first shot of Pfizer today, slight sore arm. Its been a slow rollout here, but sounding like there is promise to get a smooth process going. IIRC canada has bought nearly the most per capita worldwide but it is all imported. 80,000  doses a week for our province I believe is the plan.


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## PaulOinMA

Went to check when I may get the vaccine.   Think I am last in MA.


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## PaulOinMA

At least I  am getting my second shingles shot later this month.


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## firefighterjake

First shot in late December . . . second booster shot in another two weeks or so.

And yes . . . I realize the mask is not covering my nose. I let it slip down so I would not fog up for the photo.

Like other folks the only after effects was a mildly sore arm around the injection site which a couple Ibuprofen handled easily enough . . .


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## stoveliker

The wife (hospital and nursing home) got the Modena shot Dec. 30. Second one scheduled for Jan. 27 ( 28 days gap).
Sore arm, some muscle pain, but nothing else.

The Dr. at the citymd I went to (see below) had been down and out for two days... Seems random what effect these shots have - no history of issues with vaccine shots for my wife or that Dr.

I had to go to citymd because the mushrooming wedge (see post a week ago or so) planted a nice metal shard in my index finger. And after trying to get it out for a week I had to let the Dr cut a 1/2 " gash in my finger... All good now (tho typing -work- sucks...).

Off topic question: gloves would possibly have prevented this. But my gloves make my axe or sledge hammer slip. What brand of gloves do you use that don't make tools slide out of your (dry winter air) hands?


Edit: shot got autocorrected into sh"t...


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## Medic21

stoveliker said:


> The wife (hospital and nursing home) got the Modena shot Dec. 30. Second one scheduled for Jan. 27 ( 28 days gap).
> Sore arm, some muscle pain, but nothing else.
> 
> The Dr. at the citymd I went to (see below) had been down and out for two days... Seems random what effect these shots have - no history of issues with vaccine shots for my wife or that Dr.
> 
> I had to go to citymd because the mushrooming wedge (see post a week ago or so) planted a nice metal shard in my index finger. And after trying to get it out for a week I had to let the Dr cut a 1/2 " gash in my finger... All good now (tho typing -work- sucks...).
> 
> Off topic question: gloves would possibly have prevented this. But my gloves make my axe or sledge hammer slip. What brand of gloves do you use that don't make tools slide out of your (dry winter air) hands?
> 
> 
> Edit: shot got autocorrected into sh"t...


I wear a lot of mechanic gloves unless it gets cold, below 20 degrees, and I know exactly what you are talking about.


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## CaptSpiff

Had my twice annual check on BP last week and was told I'd likely get the shots in April. That's what I figured, but I still gave him a look. He explains it's not gonna be a high volume process for his office. He plans on only one nurse doing the injections, and didn't seem happy about that since the patients have to remain seated and observed for a full 15 minutes.


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## begreen

My older son gets his first shot today. He works with cancer patient needs. They are now using firemen to help get nursing home residents vaccinated. I expect we may get the shots next month.


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## Medic21

Got my second and just finished splitting a load of locust.


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## SpaceBus

stoveliker said:


> The wife (hospital and nursing home) got the Modena shot Dec. 30. Second one scheduled for Jan. 27 ( 28 days gap).
> Sore arm, some muscle pain, but nothing else.
> 
> The Dr. at the citymd I went to (see below) had been down and out for two days... Seems random what effect these shots have - no history of issues with vaccine shots for my wife or that Dr.
> 
> I had to go to citymd because the mushrooming wedge (see post a week ago or so) planted a nice metal shard in my index finger. And after trying to get it out for a week I had to let the Dr cut a 1/2 " gash in my finger... All good now (tho typing -work- sucks...).
> 
> Off topic question: gloves would possibly have prevented this. But my gloves make my axe or sledge hammer slip. What brand of gloves do you use that don't make tools slide out of your (dry winter air) hands?
> 
> 
> Edit: shot got autocorrected into sh"t...


For handling wood, and everything else, I use the Atlas Showa coated gloves. The blue ones for mild weather and the grey ones for cold weather. I buy them in bulk and have several in each vehicle, around the house, in tool bags, etc. Eventually the coating starts to come off and then I wear them for the sawmill until I get tired of them and toss them in the trash. Wood is really hard on leather and other types of gloves. 

@Medic21
Why were your doses so close together? Most folks I see getting the vaccine get each dose a few weeks apart.


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## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> For handling wood, and everything else, I use the Atlas Showa coated gloves. The blue ones for mild weather and the grey ones for cold weather. I buy them in bulk and have several in each vehicle, around the house, in tool bags, etc. Eventually the coating starts to come off and then I wear them for the sawmill until I get tired of them and toss them in the trash. Wood is really hard on leather and other types of gloves.
> 
> @Medic21
> Why were your doses so close together? Most folks I see getting the vaccine get each dose a few weeks apart.


I was at three weeks today.  I didn’t post it right away.  Been on vacation and busy as hell.


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## mar13

PaulOinMA said:


> At least I  am getting my second shingles shot later this month.


Shingrix gave me a super sore arm and my sister a day of fever & chills.  So COVID vaccine injection short term side effects certainly seem acceptable to me in light of what it can prevent.


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## Medic21

Update,

In the spirit of honesty. I’m 24hrs past my second shot now. Arm hurt like hell last night, worse than the first shot. Pretty sure I had a low grade fever and felt generally like I was hungover. Got up at 5am and felt drained. Slept till 9 and got around to work. I unloaded and stacked the Locust I cut and split yesterday. Eating some lunch and I fell pretty much normal.

I had to force my run yesterday evening. 3 1/2 miles that were hell. Skipped the run this morning and didn’t even try. I’ll get out tonight and see how it goes.

Don’t shy away because of the side effects.  They are not too bad.


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## firefighterjake

Medic21 said:


> Update,
> 
> In the spirit of honesty. I’m 24hrs past my second shot now. Arm hurt like hell last night, worse than the first shot. Pretty sure I had a low grade fever and felt generally like I was hungover. Got up at 5am and felt drained. Slept till 9 and got around to work. I unloaded and stacked the Locust I cut and split yesterday. Eating some lunch and I fell pretty much normal.
> 
> I had to force my run yesterday evening. 3 1/2 miles that were hell. Skipped the run this morning and didn’t even try. I’ll get out tonight and see how it goes.
> 
> Don’t shy away because of the side effects.  They are not too bad.



You're not the first person or report I've heard about the second shot after effects . . . but as you said . . . sure beats being laid out in bed for several days, losing your sense of taste (one of our Fire Inspectors who ended up with Covid 19 still has no sense of taste a month after being sick) or . . . of course . . . death.


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## Medic21

And today, I’m back to 100%.  Worked out this morning and will go back tonight for some more cardio.  All in all, not bad.


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## kennyp2339

First shot was Jan 9th, like everyone else no issues other then slight soreness near the injection site, second shot scheduled for Feb 6th.  I guess my only real issue here is wanting to know how fast this virus morphs on itself, unless I'm really dumb, my logic is the using the flu as an example, normally the flu is broken into say an A,B, &C strain, then a logical guess is taken to see which strain will be the strongest and a vaccine is made off of that, no one can say for sure if this virus can morph into a different stain to keep itself going, I hope it doesnt but hearing the news of different strains and different intensities isn't comforting either.


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## Medic21

kennyp2339 said:


> First shot was Jan 9th, like everyone else no issues other then slight soreness near the injection site, second shot scheduled for Feb 6th.  I guess my only real issue here is wanting to know how fast this virus morphs on itself, unless I'm really dumb, my logic is the using the flu as an example, normally the flu is broken into say an A,B, &C strain, then a logical guess is taken to see which strain will be the strongest and a vaccine is made off of that, no one can say for sure if this virus can morph into a different stain to keep itself going, I hope it doesnt but hearing the news of different strains and different intensities isn't comforting either.


While all Viruses mutate the mutations of Coronaviruses are exponentially slower than say the flu.  The mutations so far have only affected how contagious the virus is.  Remember, a virus is a parasite and will adapt as our bodies adapt to it. 

Thete is no evidence or belief in the medical field that any mutation of the virus will occur to render the vaccine ineffective at this time.  Not saying in the distant future that won’t happen but, for now it’s good.


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## begreen

We just got our 1st dose of the Pfizer vaccine. 2nd in 3 weeks.


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## stoveliker

The wife got the second one yesterday. Despite warnings that it might be worse, she had a head ache, not too bad, and that was all. Happy she's good now (well in a few weeks max efficacy is reached).


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## kennyp2339

My 2nd is next week, can’t wait to be honest


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## jatoxico

My crew all started getting second doses this past week. Those getting Moderna, including myself seem to be having more significant reactions vs Pfizer. Worse case has been fever, aches pains etc. Still its a small price to pay and personally I was just slightly affected with mild sore throat and general malaise/tired/sore for a couple days.


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## MMH

Just found this thread, is everyone in here in public safety or healthcare? Little late but had 1st dose in December 2nd dose earlier this week; had moderna, and remember moderna is roughly 2.5 times the dose as phizer. 1st dose fatigue sore arm aches and fever, lasted about 12-24 hrs, 2nd dose was same but worse fatiguearm pain and aches lasted a bit longer about 24-36 hrs. Laid up on 2nd dose for a day but doable and over now.


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## jebatty

Both my wife and I got the Pfizer vaccine. Slightly sore arm for about a day. Second dose coming in mid-Feb.


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## stoveliker

My wife got the Moderna vaccine, but sailed through easily. A bit of a sore arm for the first and a bit of a headache for the second. Nothing major.


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## PaulOinMA

It's early.  Scrolling through news headlines and read "How Johnson & Johnson vaccine works and why it matters" as

"Howard Johnson vaccine works and why it matters."


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## jatoxico

MMH said:


> and remember moderna is roughly 2.5 times the dose as phizer. 1st dose fatigue sore arm aches and fever, lasted about 12-24 hrs, 2nd dose was same but worse fatiguearm pain and aches lasted a bit longer about 24-36 hrs. Laid up on 2nd dose for a day but doable and over now.



True but I have not heard if that's the explanation. In fact I have not heard officially that Moderna _is_ producing more symptoms, at this point its all anecdotal.

The dose difference does seem like a plausible explanation since they target the same part of spike protein but why Moderna felt they needed to deliver such a higher dose to get the same result I have not learned.

Regarding my earlier comment about how quickly these new vaccines can be developed; apparently Moderna had theirs ready in a weekend after the Chinese scientist broke protocol and provided the viral sequence info. That was back in Jan 2020 IIRC, everything thing else has been testing.

We Had the COVID-19 Vaccine the Whole Time (nymag.com)


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## MMH

jatoxico said:


> True but I have not heard if that's the explanation. In fact I have not heard officially that Moderna _is_ producing more symptoms, at this point its all anecdotal.
> 
> The dose difference does seem like a plausible explanation since they target the same part of spike protein but why Moderna felt they needed to deliver such a higher dose to get the same result I have not learned.
> 
> Regarding my earlier comment about how quickly these new vaccines can be developed; apparently Moderna had theirs ready in a weekend after the Chinese scientist broke protocol and provided the viral sequence info. That was back in Jan 2020 IIRC, everything thing else has been testing.
> 
> We Had the COVID-19 Vaccine the Whole Time (nymag.com)



It’s not anecdotal it’s all in their data, take a day and compare them, or take a peek at the reviews completed in the end etc.


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## jatoxico

MMH said:


> It’s not anecdotal it’s all in their data, take a day and compare them, or take a peek at the reviews completed in the end etc.


That Moderna results in more severe effects after 2nd dose? If that's the case thanks and I'd be interested to see it. Any links?


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## MMH

jatoxico said:


> That Moderna results in more severe effects after 2nd dose? If that's the case thanks and I'd be interested to see it. Any links?



Yes however I’d like to be careful with my wording, I wouldn’t call it more severe, just more frequent etc comparatively to Pfizer; moderna’s data showed that they had more rates of “adverse/side effects” which remember this is normal, expected and just a sign of your immune system ramping up; if I recall they had higher percentages in most categories including headache fever and malaise etc. although their effectiveness/efficacy was within the same realm as Pfizer etc. I don’t have links on hand at the moment, I can post some when I get done with today’s chores. Just use a search engine (school database, google scholar etc) and look up moderna covid 19 vaccine results or something similar should pull it right up, bit of a read but all their data’s in there (both Pfizer moderna and AstraZeneca published in December). Personally I steer away from anything in the media, and go straight to the sources, typically NIH NCBI or from JAMA NEJM etc. Also, it was reported (albeit early) that the early data was suggesting that moderna may in fact protect against infection/transmission (not just symptomology) but that was in December a couple weeks after they published, I haven’t confirmed that or looked at it since.


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## Ludlow

I will never get the RNA shot.








						As Biden Became President, Medical Journal Quietly Retracted Study That Claimed Hydroxychloroquine Is Ineffective
					

Their retraction-admission validates what President Trump stated in the very beginning of the pandemic




					nationalfile.com


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## SpaceBus

Which one is that?


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## Ludlow

Hydroxychloroquine is effective, and consistently so when provided early, for COVID-19: a systematic review - PubMed
					

Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) has shown efficacy against coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) in some but not all studies. We hypothesized that a systematic review would show HCQ to be effective against COVID-19, more effective when provided earlier, not associated with worsening disease and safe. We...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## Ludlow

SpaceBus said:


> Which one is that?


Pfizer and Moderna


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## stoveliker

Ludlow said:


> I will never get the RNA shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Biden Became President, Medical Journal Quietly Retracted Study That Claimed Hydroxychloroquine Is Ineffective
> 
> 
> Their retraction-admission validates what President Trump stated in the very beginning of the pandemic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalfile.com



One has nothing to do with the other. Hydro... may or may not be effective (a retraction of a study saying it is not effective does not render a conclusion that it is effective as valid...), but the nature of the technology of a vaccine is not related to the quagmire of the (too preliminary?) conclusions drawn about hydro...


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## MMH

Ludlow said:


> I will never get the RNA shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As Biden Became President, Medical Journal Quietly Retracted Study That Claimed Hydroxychloroquine Is Ineffective
> 
> 
> Their retraction-admission validates what President Trump stated in the very beginning of the pandemic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalfile.com



With all respect but as stoveliker said these things aren’t related and your “never getting it” because of this is invalid; furthermore we knew hydroxy was dubious at best because the results were not able to be replicated, also unfortunately a lot of “studies” were published without peer review throughout the pandemic.


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## stoveliker

Moreover, these retractions were not "quietly", they happened as any other retraction. It happened according to standard procedure when new information invalidates the conclusions in a published paper. Trust me, I know how this works.

Moreover, rather than swallowing without question what info one gets fed, it would be appropriate to look into this a bit.

1. "quietly" as I said above, is bogus. This is normal procedure. This assertion prompted me to dig a bit deeper, as I did not trust this assertion of malice ("quietly" so no one would notice) from this journal and editorial team.

2. "As Biden became president". It appears that the retraction of the paper that halted the HCQ trials happened 8 months ago. NOTHING to do with the president, current or past.
See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-paper-that-halted-hydroxychloroquine-trials

3. For some editorially independent assessment of what happened (in fact, from a competitor in trying to obtain influential papers, which, if non-scientific motivations would play a role, suggests that they would be (too) critical of the Lancet...), you can read this:




__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.sciencemag.org
				




This is how misinformation ("as Biden became president" - it was NOT "as...") and conspiracy theories ("quietly", hiding something) come about in this day and age.

Sorry to be critical, but I find it important that untruths do not stand.


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## jatoxico

There is also the element of getting vaccinated for the good of all.


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## Ludlow

jatoxico said:


> There is also the element of getting vaccinated for the good of all.



That is a false narrative. Fauci says even if you get the vaccine you still have to wear a mask and distance and that *will not change*. I talked to a friend on Friday. His family was hit with covid and 11 people got it. Only one (middle aged woman) got moderately sick. Others, including an 80 year old man, ranged from no symptoms to a runny nose for a few days. All of them, including the 80 year old, recovered. I know of three households where 1 person got it and nobody else in the house contracted it. I dont inject anything into my body for the good of humanity. I make my own choices. Without a clear defined benefit I will pass. The J&J vaccine interests me but requires further scrutiny. Nobody in any of their trials died. Seems that you may still catch the covid with their vaccine but it lessens the severity enormously. I believe their vaccine is more of a traditional type of vaccine but I need to study more before committing to that.



*Pennacchio: Could Lives Have Been Saved if Doctors Had the Chance to Fight COVID with Hydroxychloroquine?
HCQ was Showing Promise Early in the Pandemic, New Hackensack Meridian Health Study Shows*
A prescription drug with a six-decade history as a safe and effective anti-parasitic treatment is once again showing promise as an early treatment for COVID-19.
A just-released study by a New Jersey-based healthcare system indicates that patients with mild symptoms of the virus who received hydroxychloroquine were “significantly less likely to end up in the hospital,” according to a published report in the Daily Record, dated Jan. 27, 2021.
“This doesn’t come as a surprise to me, but it is troubling that we had to wait almost a year to get to this point,” said Senator Joe Pennacchio, who as early as March was joined by dozens of doctors and medical experts urging the federal and State governments to authorize doctors to use the drug, also known as HCQ, to help control the spread of COVID after the encouraging early findings.
“In the desperation of the early days of the pandemic, with COVID spreading like wildfire in areas of North Jersey and New York, hydroxychloroquine was the only treatment showing promise,” Pennacchio said. “HCQ got a bad rap because of politics, and its off-label use as a COVID treatment was blocked.”
The new study from Hackensack Meridian Health stated that from March to mid-May, the system’s physicians used the hydroxychloroquine to treat outpatients who did not have severe symptoms, and of more than 100 people who received the drug, barely 20 percent ended up in the hospital, compared with close to 33 percent of more than 1,000 people who were not administered HCQ.
In today’s article, the Daily Record reported that “the drug also appeared to be safe, with no reports of cardiac arrhythmia,” or other side effects.
“Politicians, insisting they knew more than the doctors who were prescribing the treatment effectively blocked its use and prevented further studies,” said Pennacchio. “They robbed the desperate public of a potential medical option when they were so desperate for any reason for hope.
“So much time was wasted, so many lives lost. So heartbreaking,” the Senator said.
In April, while the effectiveness of HCQ was playing out at Meridian’s hospitals, Pennacchio issued another plea to Administration, with a long list of 350 doctors from across the nation pleading for doctors to be allowed to use the drug to treat patients.
“How many thousands of lives, including those tragically lost in our veterans and nursing homes, may have been saved by the responsible use of hydroxychloroquine?” asked Pennacchio.
“Had politicians put aside their partisanship and truly did the business of the people, the story may have been quite different in New Jersey and across the U.S. What a shame,” Pennacchio concluded.


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## tlc1976

I heard something in the early stages of Covid that hydroxychloroquine did work well. The only problem was it was in short supply and if they used it up for Covid then lupus patients would be out of luck.


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## MMH

Ludlow said:


> That is a false narrative. Fauci says even if you get the vaccine you still have to wear a mask and distance and that *will not change*. I talked to a friend on Friday. His family was hit with covid and 11 people got it. Only one (middle aged woman) got moderately sick. Others, including an 80 year old man, ranged from no symptoms to a runny nose for a few days. All of them, including the 80 year old, recovered. I know of three households where 1 person got it and nobody else in the house contracted it. I dont inject anything into my body for the good of humanity. I make my own choices. Without a clear defined benefit I will pass. The J&J vaccine interests me but requires further scrutiny. Nobody in any of their trials died. Seems that you may still catch the covid with their vaccine but it lessens the severity enormously. I believe their vaccine is more of a traditional type of vaccine but I need to study more before committing to that.
> 
> 
> 
> *Pennacchio: Could Lives Have Been Saved if Doctors Had the Chance to Fight COVID with Hydroxychloroquine?
> HCQ was Showing Promise Early in the Pandemic, New Hackensack Meridian Health Study Shows*
> A prescription drug with a six-decade history as a safe and effective anti-parasitic treatment is once again showing promise as an early treatment for COVID-19.
> A just-released study by a New Jersey-based healthcare system indicates that patients with mild symptoms of the virus who received hydroxychloroquine were “significantly less likely to end up in the hospital,” according to a published report in the Daily Record, dated Jan. 27, 2021.
> “This doesn’t come as a surprise to me, but it is troubling that we had to wait almost a year to get to this point,” said Senator Joe Pennacchio, who as early as March was joined by dozens of doctors and medical experts urging the federal and State governments to authorize doctors to use the drug, also known as HCQ, to help control the spread of COVID after the encouraging early findings.
> “In the desperation of the early days of the pandemic, with COVID spreading like wildfire in areas of North Jersey and New York, hydroxychloroquine was the only treatment showing promise,” Pennacchio said. “HCQ got a bad rap because of politics, and its off-label use as a COVID treatment was blocked.”
> The new study from Hackensack Meridian Health stated that from March to mid-May, the system’s physicians used the hydroxychloroquine to treat outpatients who did not have severe symptoms, and of more than 100 people who received the drug, barely 20 percent ended up in the hospital, compared with close to 33 percent of more than 1,000 people who were not administered HCQ.
> In today’s article, the Daily Record reported that “the drug also appeared to be safe, with no reports of cardiac arrhythmia,” or other side effects.
> “Politicians, insisting they knew more than the doctors who were prescribing the treatment effectively blocked its use and prevented further studies,” said Pennacchio. “They robbed the desperate public of a potential medical option when they were so desperate for any reason for hope.
> “So much time was wasted, so many lives lost. So heartbreaking,” the Senator said.
> In April, while the effectiveness of HCQ was playing out at Meridian’s hospitals, Pennacchio issued another plea to Administration, with a long list of 350 doctors from across the nation pleading for doctors to be allowed to use the drug to treat patients.
> “How many thousands of lives, including those tragically lost in our veterans and nursing homes, may have been saved by the responsible use of hydroxychloroquine?” asked Pennacchio.
> “Had politicians put aside their partisanship and truly did the business of the people, the story may have been quite different in New Jersey and across the U.S. What a shame,” Pennacchio concluded.



Again with respect, but being in healthcare and as stoveliker said misinformation is no good for anyone. Herd immunity is not a false narrative. I won’t argue fauci as some respect him and some don’t regardless of their backgrounds. 
Again, hydroxy has confounding results with some reporting it a mirricle drug and others reporting no differences as it wasn’t replicated; this is why in the scientific community they’ve called for large scale RCT’s with thousands of patients in the context of covid (not malaria, not lupus, or any other myriad of things we already know it works for), because it works for one doesn’t imply the other. 
As far as your statement regarding knowing people who had covid and were  fine or didn’t catch it etc this is anecdotal and subpar evidence in the scientific community. I also have seen people who got it, died from it, got it and we’re asymptomatic, or didn’t get it and should have across all age groups; again all anecdotal, is extremely multifactorial, and doesn’t represent the whole. Talk to NYC or any other major metro area that was hit hard and they’ll have a different story for you as well. I respect your decision to not get the vaccine at the moment, or ever, that’s your choice as you said, but don’t plaster it based on conspiracy and potentially false and misleading information. Again I mean no disrespect to you, and I suspect this is where we’ll agree to disagree. Enjoy your night.


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## SpaceBus

I don't think either vaccine is RNA, maybe MRNA, but that is still only physically similar. You can buy a a Pontiac Fiero and install a V8 and a Ferrari body kit, but that doesn't make it a Ferrari.


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## jatoxico

Ludlow said:


> Fauci says even if you get the vaccine you still have to wear a mask and distance and that *will not change*.



This misconstrues the current guidance. Yes, after getting vaccinated they are still recommending people wear a mask because they have not yet proved beyond all doubt that vaccinated people can't carry/transmit the disease but its likely only a matter of time and will probably be like other vaccines.

I suspect there may be practical reasons as well since it would be difficult to police mask wearing if someone falsely claims to be vaccinated.

In addition the longer the virus is in the population the greater the chance of mutation as the virus replicates. Vaccinated people are much less likely to be sources of future mutations.


----------



## SpaceBus

I do agree that the Pfizer, Moderna, and AZ vaccines should not be called vaccines. Traditionally a vaccine inoculated a person with part of or the whole live virus and almost always yielded sterilizing immunity in the recipient. These new "vaccines" are really just prophylactics in that they do not give sterilizing immunity, just the ability to kick the infection if you get it. If the new drugs could give sterilizing immunity we would inoculate front line workers so the disease is not spread in normal every day activities. Since this new drug will allow you to still  contract the virus and spread it, even to people who are also "vaccinated", those most at risk of dying are getting the vaccine. 

Long story short, the new "vaccines" are just a way to reduce death, not prevent spread. 


If these new drugs could give sterilizing immunity I would feel better about them. Most of the worst human diseases have been eradicated by effective vaccines. Small pox, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines all give sterilizing immunity, the CV19 vaccines so far do not. Even at current vaccine production rates it would take ten years to protect the entire world population, one year for the US.

Once you start adding in the variants the plague looks like it will just go on forever.


----------



## Ludlow

SpaceBus said:


> I do agree that the Pfizer, Moderna, and AZ vaccines should not be called vaccines. Traditionally a vaccine inoculated a person with part of or the whole live virus and almost always yielded sterilizing immunity in the recipient. These new "vaccines" are really just prophylactics in that they do not give sterilizing immunity, just the ability to kick the infection if you get it. If the new drugs could give sterilizing immunity we would inoculate front line workers so the disease is not spread in normal every day activities. Since this new drug will allow you to still  contract the virus and spread it, even to people who are also "vaccinated", those most at risk of dying are getting the vaccine.
> 
> Long story short, the new "vaccines" are just a way to reduce death, not prevent spread.
> 
> 
> If these new drugs could give sterilizing immunity I would feel better about them. Most of the worst human diseases have been eradicated by effective vaccines. Small pox, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines all give sterilizing immunity, the CV19 vaccines so far do not. Even at current vaccine production rates it would take ten years to protect the entire world population, one year for the US.
> 
> Once you start adding in the variants the plague looks like it will just go on forever.



Your post strengthens  my assertion that herd immunity is a false narrative and that "getting it for the good of humanity" is bogus.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ludlow said:


> Your post strengthens  my assertion that herd immunity is a false narrative.


Herd immunity is not a false narrative, but it is used in a deceptive fashion. It will take years to get to herd immunity, and that term itself takes away all the humanity of the hundreds of thousands of people in this country that have already died from it. The US is only 5% of the world population, this is going to take a long time, like a sub surface coal or peat fire.


----------



## Ludlow

The vaccine was made 11 days before the first case was confirmed in the US.


----------



## SpaceBus

Ludlow said:


> The vaccine was made 11 days before the first case was confirmed in the US.


Indeed, the virus was being transmitted in China back in November. The genetic sequence was released prior to known cases in the US. If you already had a stack of Legos sitting around it wouldn't be hard to build something if you got the instructions. I don' t doubt the efficacy of the drugs that Pfizer, Moderna, etc. have released, I just don't think they should be called vaccines. I suspect there is no way to attain sterilizing immunity to coronaviruses, elsewise it would have already been done. It seems most human respiratory disease comes from coronaviruses, it just happens that there are now a few strains that are deadly in humans rather than just inconvenient. Research into protection from SARS causing viruses, like the current novel coronavirus, has been ongoing since the last SARS and MERS outbreaks. 


I am afraid Covid19 will end up becoming like Malaria and the only thing that works will be prophylactics. Unfortunately I have immune system issues and my doctor does not recommend me to get the current "vaccines" due to adverse reaction risks. Maybe in a few years I could get one of the options once more is known about the causes of adverse reactions.


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> The vaccine was made 11 days before the first case was confirmed in the US.


What are you basing that assertion upon?


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> Your post strengthens  my assertion that herd immunity is a false narrative and that "getting it for the good of humanity" is bogus.


Not a false narrative at all.  It is absolutely a reality the problem is to get there without a vaccine would cost many many more lives.


----------



## Medic21

SpaceBus said:


> I do agree that the Pfizer, Moderna, and AZ vaccines should not be called vaccines. Traditionally a vaccine inoculated a person with part of or the whole live virus and almost always yielded sterilizing immunity in the recipient. These new "vaccines" are really just prophylactics in that they do not give sterilizing immunity, just the ability to kick the infection if you get it. If the new drugs could give sterilizing immunity we would inoculate front line workers so the disease is not spread in normal every day activities. Since this new drug will allow you to still  contract the virus and spread it, even to people who are also "vaccinated", those most at risk of dying are getting the vaccine.
> 
> Long story short, the new "vaccines" are just a way to reduce death, not prevent spread.
> 
> 
> If these new drugs could give sterilizing immunity I would feel better about them. Most of the worst human diseases have been eradicated by effective vaccines. Small pox, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines all give sterilizing immunity, the CV19 vaccines so far do not. Even at current vaccine production rates it would take ten years to protect the entire world population, one year for the US.
> 
> Once you start adding in the variants the plague looks like it will just go on forever.


There is a lot inherently flawed in what you posted.  The Small Pox and Polio vaccines are not even used because it was eradicated.  
MMR does not produce a lifelong or sterile immunity as you suggest.  Without titers drawn and boosters your immunity may not exist after 5-10 years.  

MMR is about the only live vaccine left that is routinely given.

Covid is not a vaccine as you think of vaccine.  Your speculating to what can happen as is everyone.  There has been the full gambit of not contracting to less severe cases in those that have gotten the vaccine.  There is still too much to learn to make any assumptions.  What we need is a T cell immunity type vaccine.  That is years out.


----------



## Ludlow

bholler said:


> What are you basing that assertion upon?



Uh...facts?

*Scientists at Moderna, a biotech specializing in messenger RNA, were able to design a vaccine on paper in 48 hours, 11 days before the US even had its first recorded case. Inside of six weeks, Moderna had chilled doses ready for tests in animals.*


----------



## Ludlow

bholler said:


> Not a false narrative at all.  It is absolutely a reality the problem is to get there without a vaccine would cost many many more lives.



But there is no long term immunity. Are we to vaccinate every year?


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> Uh...facts?
> 
> *Scientists at Moderna, a biotech specializing in messenger RNA, were able to design a vaccine on paper in 48 hours, 11 days before the US even had its first recorded case. Inside of six weeks, Moderna had chilled doses ready for tests in animals.*


Uhh designing it in theory on paper is one thing.  But you claimed it was  made.  Making it is a completely different thing then it needs tested etc etc.  Btw Did you bother to check how the tests of that original one went???


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> But there is no long term immunity. Are we to vaccinate every year?


There can absolutely be long term immunity as long as the virus doesn't mutate to a point that immunity is no longer effective.  We don't know if that will happen or not yet with covid.  If it does mutate like influenza the yes we may need to get vaccinated every year.  

This is a new virus we simply don't know the answers to many of these questions.


----------



## Ludlow

bholler said:


> Uhh designing it in theory on paper is one thing.  But you claimed it was  made.  Making it is a completely different thing then it needs tested etc etc.  Btw Did you bother to check how the tests of that original one went???



Ok Ok....semantics it is.
Show us.


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> Ok Ok....semantics it is.
> Show us.


Not semantics.  You said it was made before we had our first case here.  It was not it was designed on paper and from that they produced a vaccine that didn't make it through testing.   I would say that makes your claim inaccurate.


----------



## Ludlow

bholler said:


> This is a new virus we simply don't know the answers to many of these questions.



That is what you should go with. Everything else is just parroting what the "experts" are saying one day, then reversing the next.


bholler said:


> Not semantics.  You said it was made before we had our first case here.  It was not it was designed on paper and from that they produced a vaccine that didn't make it through testing.   I would say that makes your claim inaccurate.



Where do you get that information that it didnt make it?


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> That is what you should go with. Everything else is just parroting what the "experts" are saying one day, then reversing the next.
> 
> 
> Where do you get that information that it didnt make it?


Cdc records


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> That is what you should go with. Everything else is just parroting what the "experts" are saying one day, then reversing the next.
> 
> 
> Where do you get that information that it didnt make it?


And we do not know all the answers no one does at this point.  But we know many things that help control the spread.  We know the vaccines currently available at the very least reduce the severity of symptoms in patients.


----------



## stoveliker

bholler said:


> And we do not know all the answers no one does at this point.  But we know many things that help control the spread.  We know the vaccines currently available at the very least reduce the severity of symptoms in patients.



Indeed, we don't know everything, but incredibly useful (and even safety increasing) advice can and is being given by experts.
And that is not only the case for chimney issues on this forum...

And indeed, you have the freedom to not follow that advice from those that actually spent decades of their life trying to understand the complex systems that is the human body and society. Not following that advice may have consequences though, for your safety and for e.g. your neighbor's safety. That holds both for chimneys and vaccines.

Moreover, it seems likely to me that some privileges might be taken away from those refusing the vaccine. School, sports games, cinemas etc etc.
I note that schools already require (!) vaccines - just not for covid yet.

In this free country you have the opportunity to refuse. But that may not be without consequences.

Edit: I replied to the wrong post.


----------



## Medic21

Ludlow said:


> But there is no long term immunity. Are we to vaccinate every year?


How do you know there is no long term immunity?  Site the peer reviewed study that proves this.  All I’ve seen is speculation.


----------



## stoveliker

Medic21 said:


> How do you know there is no long term immunity?  Site the peer reviewed study that proves this.  All I’ve seen is speculation.



Moreover, flue shot...?


----------



## SpaceBus

I think everyone should get the available vaccines even if they aren't perfect. Clearly I'm no expert on this virus or how deadly it is, but I know I don't want it.


----------



## gzecc

In NJ my wife and I have to wait for the smokers to get their shots first.


----------



## Ludlow

gzecc said:


> In NJ my wife and I have to wait for the smokers to get their shots first.



This is getting entertaining.










						Smokers, Vegetarians At Lower Risk Of Contracting Covid-19: Study
					

A CSIR survey suggested earlier that smoking and a vegetarian diet may prove to be a protection against Covid-19. However, scientists warn against believing that as the observation is still being studied




					www.outlookindia.com
				












						Link between smoking, vegetarianism, Covid  not fully understood
					

A pan-India CSIR survey suggests that smoking and a vegetarian diet may provide protection against Covid-19, but there is no cause for either group to celebrate with scientists as well authors of...




					www.thehansindia.com


----------



## Ludlow

If I get vaccinated:

1.- Can I stop wearing the mask?
Government Response - No

2.- Can they reopen restaurants, pubs, bars etc and everyone work normally?
Government Response - No

3.- Will I be resistant to covid?
Government Response - Maybe, but we don't know exactly, it probably won't stop you getting it

4.- At least I won't be contagious to others anymore?
Government Response - No you can still pass it on, possibly, nobody knows.

5.- If we vaccinate all children, will school resume normally?
Government Response - No

6.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
Government Response - No

7.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
Government Response - No

8.- If I vaccinate myself and my grandfather, can we hug each other?
Government Response - No

9.- Will cinemas, theatres and stadiums be reopened thanks to vaccines?
Government Response - No

10.- Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
Government Response - No

11.- What is the real benefit of vaccination?
Government Response - The virus won't kill you.

12.- Are you sure it won't kill me?
Government Response - No

13.- If statistically the virus won't kill me anyway ... Why would I get vaccinated?"
Government Response - To protect others.

14.- So if I get vaccinated, the others are 100% sure I'm not infecting them?
Government Response - No

So to summarise, the Covid19 vaccine...

Does not give immunity.
Does not eliminate the virus.
Does not prevent death.
Does not guarantee you won’t get it.
Does not prevent you from getting it.
Does not stop you passing it on
Does not eliminate the need for travel bans.
Does not eliminate the need for business closures.
Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns.
Does not eliminate the need for masking.

So...what is it actually doing?


----------



## bholler

Ludlow said:


> If I get vaccinated:
> 
> 1.- Can I stop wearing the mask?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 2.- Can they reopen restaurants, pubs, bars etc and everyone work normally?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 3.- Will I be resistant to covid?
> Government Response - Maybe, but we don't know exactly, it probably won't stop you getting it
> 
> 4.- At least I won't be contagious to others anymore?
> Government Response - No you can still pass it on, possibly, nobody knows.
> 
> 5.- If we vaccinate all children, will school resume normally?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 6.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 7.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 8.- If I vaccinate myself and my grandfather, can we hug each other?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 9.- Will cinemas, theatres and stadiums be reopened thanks to vaccines?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 10.- Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 11.- What is the real benefit of vaccination?
> Government Response - The virus won't kill you.
> 
> 12.- Are you sure it won't kill me?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 13.- If statistically the virus won't kill me anyway ... Why would I get vaccinated?"
> Government Response - To protect others.
> 
> 14.- So if I get vaccinated, the others are 100% sure I'm not infecting them?
> Government Response - No
> 
> So to summarise, the Covid19 vaccine...
> 
> Does not give immunity.
> Does not eliminate the virus.
> Does not prevent death.
> Does not guarantee you won’t get it.
> Does not prevent you from getting it.
> Does not stop you passing it on
> Does not eliminate the need for travel bans.
> Does not eliminate the need for business closures.
> Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns.
> Does not eliminate the need for masking.
> 
> So...what is it actually doing?


I don't know where you are getting your info but it clearly isn't from the cdc dept of health Or anywhere else official.  The answer to all of those questions is at this point we have to get the vaccine out there to protect people at risk so they don't die.  That is the important thing keeping americans alive.  After we do that we can worry about the rest of it.  

Or would you rather have them lie and say it's all under control go back to your normal life and let more people die?


----------



## bholler

It may very possibly give immunity it has in many test subjects.

Of course it doesn't eliminate the virus the only thing that can do that is herd immunity and time.

So far it has prevented death but they can't say that for sure because they are not absolutely positive

No it doesn't guarantee you won't get it but it greatly reduced the risk and if you do get it it greatly reduced your symptoms

They can't guarantee you can't pass it on yet no

Of course it won't eliminate the need for travel bans overnight again it takes time.

Again opening up all businesses safely will take time.

Same for lockdowns

Same for masks.  But really get over it masks are not a big deal I really don't see why people complain about them so much


----------



## SpaceBus

Ludlow said:


> If I get vaccinated:
> 
> 1.- Can I stop wearing the mask?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 2.- Can they reopen restaurants, pubs, bars etc and everyone work normally?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 3.- Will I be resistant to covid?
> Government Response - Maybe, but we don't know exactly, it probably won't stop you getting it
> 
> 4.- At least I won't be contagious to others anymore?
> Government Response - No you can still pass it on, possibly, nobody knows.
> 
> 5.- If we vaccinate all children, will school resume normally?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 6.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 7.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 8.- If I vaccinate myself and my grandfather, can we hug each other?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 9.- Will cinemas, theatres and stadiums be reopened thanks to vaccines?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 10.- Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 11.- What is the real benefit of vaccination?
> Government Response - The virus won't kill you.
> 
> 12.- Are you sure it won't kill me?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 13.- If statistically the virus won't kill me anyway ... Why would I get vaccinated?"
> Government Response - To protect others.
> 
> 14.- So if I get vaccinated, the others are 100% sure I'm not infecting them?
> Government Response - No
> 
> So to summarise, the Covid19 vaccine...
> 
> Does not give immunity.
> Does not eliminate the virus.
> Does not prevent death.
> Does not guarantee you won’t get it.
> Does not prevent you from getting it.
> Does not stop you passing it on
> Does not eliminate the need for travel bans.
> Does not eliminate the need for business closures.
> Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns.
> Does not eliminate the need for masking.
> 
> So...what is it actually doing?


It is going to save lives, which is the point of the "lockdowns" and everything else.


----------



## SpaceBus

We all just need to face the facts that we are living in a global pandemic and life as we know it will be different forever. This happens after every plague and then people forget about it and then it happens all over again.


----------



## jatoxico

How about we change it to; *When enough people are vaccinated?* Whatever the perceived downside, which so far there has been virtually none, I think everyone needs to do their part and not let others assume all the "risk".



Ludlow said:


> If I get vaccinated:
> 
> 1.- Can I stop wearing the mask?
> Government Response - *Yes*
> 
> 2.- Can they reopen restaurants, pubs, bars etc and everyone work normally?
> Government Response -*Yes*
> 
> 3.- Will I be resistant to covid?
> Government Response - *Yes now, yes then*
> 
> 4.- At least I won't be contagious to others anymore?
> Government Response - *Yes you will be less contagious and possibly not at all*
> 
> 5.- If we vaccinate all children, will school resume normally?
> Government Response - *Yes*
> 
> 6.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
> Government Response -*Yes*
> 
> 7.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
> Government Response -  *Yes*
> 
> 8.- If I vaccinate myself and my grandfather, can we hug each other?
> Government Response - *Yes*
> 
> 9.- Will cinemas, theatres and stadiums be reopened thanks to vaccines?
> Government Response - *Yes*
> 
> 10.- Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
> Government Response - *Yes*
> 
> 11.- What is the real benefit of vaccination?
> Government Response - The virus won't kill you. *That's pretty good, no?*
> 
> 12.- Are you sure it won't kill me?
> Government Response - No *You want certainty??*
> 
> 13.- If statistically the virus won't kill me anyway ... Why would I get vaccinated?"
> Government Response - To protect others. *That's not the worst reason I've ever heard*
> 
> 14.- So if I get vaccinated, the others are 100% sure I'm not infecting them?
> Government Response - *No vaccines are 100%. These have some of the highest efficacies of all.*


----------



## SpaceBus

To be fair you should probably be frequently washing your hands and practicing good infection control after you get vaccinated/covid is over. We only have this level of technology and comfort because some people realized that hand washing will prevent nearly all disease. 



I've read on a few scholarly sources that the Plague of Justinian (most likely bubonic plague) that ultimately destroyed the East Roman Empire had a case fatality rate similar to that of Covid. About 5% of people that get bubonic plague in modern days will die, but if bubonic plague were running rampant you know everyone would be hiding in their houses for sure. Due to not having any real medical knowledge the plague of Justinian killed some 30-50% of the population of East Rome and deaths in Constantinople were 5,000 per day. If the hospitals fill up in Rural areas, like they are doing right now, the deaths from Covid will be just the same. The deaths in NYC finally started to slow down once the "lockdowns" started and there were less people going to the hospital due to fewer infections.

Usually folks dying from Covid are having simultaneous infections and are ultimately septic. Unfortunately the way "mortality rates" care calculated for certain diseases is very misleading. There are many people dying of things other than Covid, but Covid was the thing that triggered a weakened immune system, but is not determined to be the cause of death. However, that person would have kept on living had they not gotten covid. Maine started to show far more Covid deaths after the Maine CDC initiated a review of death certificates coming from hospitals. One example was a woman that died a day after testing negative for Covid after battling it for weeks, but due to the negative test her death certificate did not list Covid. 

If anything the world governments are underreporting deaths to keep people from panicking. 

A tree can fend off a few beetles or other bark destroying insects, but the very defense attracts even more insects and the tree becomes overwhelmed.


----------



## stoveliker

Ludlow said:


> If I get vaccinated:
> 
> 1.- Can I stop wearing the mask?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 2.- Can they reopen restaurants, pubs, bars etc and everyone work normally?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 3.- Will I be resistant to covid?
> Government Response - Maybe, but we don't know exactly, it probably won't stop you getting it
> 
> 4.- At least I won't be contagious to others anymore?
> Government Response - No you can still pass it on, possibly, nobody knows.
> 
> 5.- If we vaccinate all children, will school resume normally?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 6.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 7.- If I am vaccinated, can I stop disinfecting my hands?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 8.- If I vaccinate myself and my grandfather, can we hug each other?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 9.- Will cinemas, theatres and stadiums be reopened thanks to vaccines?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 10.- Will the vaccinated be able to gather?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 11.- What is the real benefit of vaccination?
> Government Response - The virus won't kill you.
> 
> 12.- Are you sure it won't kill me?
> Government Response - No
> 
> 13.- If statistically the virus won't kill me anyway ... Why would I get vaccinated?"
> Government Response - To protect others.
> 
> 14.- So if I get vaccinated, the others are 100% sure I'm not infecting them?
> Government Response - No
> 
> So to summarise, the Covid19 vaccine...
> 
> Does not give immunity.
> Does not eliminate the virus.
> Does not prevent death.
> Does not guarantee you won’t get it.
> Does not prevent you from getting it.
> Does not stop you passing it on
> Does not eliminate the need for travel bans.
> Does not eliminate the need for business closures.
> Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns.
> Does not eliminate the need for masking.
> 
> So...what is it actually doing?



You are trying to get definitive (yes/no, and nothing else) answers when reality is not like that. Answers to those questions are "not yet (directly after getting the vaccine)" or "not 100%" etc.

Hence if you are asking "100% yes, now?"  the answer is nope.

Consider the freedom limiting rules that have been imposed on all of us already, and consider them being absent but being rolled out in the country at the highest pace possible. Example; "traffic light installation and people have to stop for red".

Will I not die after this? No, not 100% of the time. Not immediately. Hence in a yes/no forced answer, the answer is nope.

Will it prevent all accidents? Same. Nope.

All answers to your questions are probabilities and as a result forcing y/n answers to your questions paints a picture that does not comport with reality in any meaningful way.
It is bending the truth by forcing to choose between inadequate (to describe the truth) answers.


----------



## gzecc

Ludlow said:


> This is getting entertaining.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smokers, Vegetarians At Lower Risk Of Contracting Covid-19: Study
> 
> 
> A CSIR survey suggested earlier that smoking and a vegetarian diet may prove to be a protection against Covid-19. However, scientists warn against believing that as the observation is still being studied
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.outlookindia.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Link between smoking, vegetarianism, Covid  not fully understood
> 
> 
> A pan-India CSIR survey suggests that smoking and a vegetarian diet may provide protection against Covid-19, but there is no cause for either group to celebrate with scientists as well authors of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thehansindia.com


Follow the money.  Keep smokers alive to continue paying the cigarette taxes!


----------



## bholler

gzecc said:


> Follow the money.  Keep smokers alive to continue paying the cigarette taxes!


Or just keep people at risk alive


----------



## Medic21

stoveliker said:


> Moreover, flue shot...?


There is no  comparison between flu and covid past they are respiratory illnesses.  The flu virus mutates a 1000 times faster than a Coronavirus does.  You have immunity to the strain of flu you were vaccinated for.

We have seen Swine Flu cases in the last year.  I speculate it’s because of testing but, we see them in the age range that were never vaccinated for swine flu years ago.


----------



## stoveliker

Medic21 said:


> There is no  comparison between flu and covid past they are respiratory illnesses.  The flu virus mutates a 1000 times faster than a Coronavirus does.  You have immunity to the strain of flu you were vaccinated for.
> 
> We have seen Swine Flu cases in the last year.  I speculate it’s because of testing but, we see them in the age range that were never vaccinated for swine flu years ago.



Yes, I know. What I meant was "do we have to have a covid shot every year" (if it does not impart immunity in a lasting timeframe) - as if that (shot every year) was a big problem. It is not as half our country gets a flue shot every year. That was the point I tried to make.

edit: nice typo for this forum, flue -> flu ...


----------



## Medic21

stoveliker said:


> Yes, I know. What I meant was "do we have to have a covid shot every year" (if it does not impart immunity in a lasting timeframe) - as if that (shot every year) was a big problem. It is not as half our country gets a flue shot every year. That was the point I tried to make.
> 
> edit: nice typo for this forum, flue -> flu ...


From what I’ve seen and heard it is likely we will have to have boosters or whatever you want to call them.  I think the hope would be once we have a high enough percentage vaccinated or immune through illness that it will stop it and it will basically go away.


----------



## paulnlee

Had to laugh today, getting stitches after MOHs yesterday and doc and aides were talking vaccine. Asked me when I'm getting mine, I said never. He said that's the same answer my previous patient said. Said he never talks politics


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> Had to laugh today, getting stitches after MOHs yesterday and doc and aides were talking vaccine. Asked me when I'm getting mine, I said never. He said that's the same answer my previous patient said. Said he never talks politics


I am curious what your reasoning behind that is?


----------



## jatoxico

It's too bad that the discussion and decision about use of vaccines/masks etc is viewed as a political one.
I wonder if the next time anyone needs to have a procedure if they want the doctor to wash his/her hands, wear gloves and a mask and sterilize the tools or not.


----------



## paulnlee

bholler said:


> I am curious what your reasoning behind that is?


Not one for vaccines to begin with(since USMC) and all the changes via WHO(good name) CDC, the numbers are suspect and the rest leaves very little confidence. I honestly believe most of it is all hype. Haven't changed a thing except the forced regulations but I'll be damned if I'm going to wear a stocking under my two masks


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> Not one for vaccines to begin with(since USMC) and all the changes via WHO(good name) CDC, the numbers are suspect and the rest leaves very little confidence. I honestly believe most of it is all hype. Haven't changed a thing except the forced regulations but I'll be damned if I'm going to wear a stocking under my two masks


Are you going to pay out of pocket for the medical bills if you do get it after turning down the vaccine?

Things are changing from the CDC WHO etc as we learn more and get more data on the virus.  How are they supposed to have all of the answers about something that didn't exist previously?


----------



## paulnlee

Are you after you got the vaccine? As far as the CDC&WHO is concerned it's like an Abbott-Costello who's on first gag


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> Are you after you got the vaccine? As far as the CDC&WHO is concerned it's like an Abbott-Costello who's on first gag


Why would I I am doing everything I can to avoid getting sick.


----------



## stoveliker

bholler said:


> Are you going to pay out of pocket for the medical bills if you do get it after turning down the vaccine?
> 
> Things are changing from the CDC WHO etc as we learn more and get more data on the virus.  How are they supposed to have all of the answers about something that didn't exist previously?



I am more and more getting behind the idea that the government should mandate the vaccine but offer opt outs under the condition that a waiver is signed for covid ICU hospitalization, and even normal non ICU hospitalization if the hospital is above 95% occupied or something like that. If you refuse, die on your own recognizance. At home. You won't get care in the hospital.

 Free county, also in this.

And I note my wife work in a hospital (as well as a nursing home).


----------



## tlc1976

stoveliker said:


> I am more and more getting behind the idea that the government should mandate the vaccine but offer opt outs under the condition that a waiver is signed for covid ICU hospitalization, and even normal non ICU hospitalization if the hospital is above 95% occupied or something like that. If you refuse, die on your own recognizance. At home. You won't get care in the hospital.
> 
> Free county, also in this.
> 
> And I note my wife work in a hospital (as well as a nursing home).



As long as it’s actually available to everyone. The local hospital had less than 1000 doses last week for people 80 and older and the slots filled up in 4 minutes. The next county over had 300 slots for its residents but dumped it when they found out 280 of the 300 signed up  from elsewhere. No vaccinations going on in my county unless you’re a medical worker. With 10 million people in Michigan, it’s doubtful it will ever be available to me at this rate. But I’d love to have it. I have issues with anemia and asthma and blood clots, Covid would likely make those worse. I’ve also got one of the more unfavorable blood types.


----------



## stoveliker

tlc1976 said:


> As long as it’s actually available to everyone. The local hospital had less than 1000 doses last week for people 80 and older and the slots filled up in 4 minutes. The next county over had 300 slots for its residents but dumped it when they found out 280 of the 300 signed up  from elsewhere. No vaccinations going on in my county unless you’re a medical worker. With 10 million people in Michigan, it’s doubtful it will ever be available to me at this rate. But I’d love to have it. I have issues with anemia and asthma and blood clots, Covid would likely make those worse. I’ve also got one of the more unfavorable blood types.



Of course. I want it, but have not been offered yet. That does not equate refusing it. Colleagues of my wife did refuse though ...


----------



## peakbagger

Time for an update.  NH is opening up their shots to out of staters over age 16 on Monday. I got my 1st Pfizer shot 3 - 1/2 weeks ago. It was 9 AM in the morning on a Wednesday. My arm didnt hurt. It was a regional clinic and took about 1/2 hour. I felt fine the next day but around 1:00 AM on Friday I woke up with a headache. I also was bit dizzy. The headache got worse over the morning and I eventually took some Tylenol. I was pretty tired the rest of the day. Later on I got vertigo. I had it on and off the next two days. The second shot was three weeks later. Same as before I was fine on Thursday and then woke up around 1 AM Friday with vertigo. I was tired and dizzy all day. I got up the next day and I was fine, no trace of dizziness.   I have had inner ear issues on rare occasions over the years so I know how to deal with the "spins" from vertigo.  So that is done and over . I was expecting to get my first shot in May so getting it done a month early was nice.


----------



## stoveliker

I got my first (Pfizer) shot Wednesday - after a two week quarantine b/c my daughter had been exposed and was tested positive. Luckily we were able to avoid further infections at our household. So when the quarantine was over, I was able to immediately schedule a shot the same day. Made me feel good.

Sore arm for one day (shot at 11, sore arm in the pm and night).  Could not lift it up above my shoulder - very strange. Had not ever experienced something like that (limited range of motion) before.
Next day all was well again.


----------



## bholler

We had our first one second is on next sat.   We were both tired after the first


----------



## tlc1976

I got mine a little bit ago.  Single shot Johnson and Johnson. Had horrible chills and fever up to 102.6 the first night. Headache the next morning. Then fever of about 100.5 that night.  Then the side effects were gone.


----------



## begreen

As of 3pm yesterday, the whole family now is officially vaccinated, all Pfizer. No serious reactions, just a slightly sore arm the next day, and my wife felt a little fatigue for 24 hrs. All good now.


----------



## johneh

I got mine 3 weeks ago no real reaction 
The wife gets hers today so this house is vaccinated 
Just my sons and families they are able to register now 
Here in Ontario Canada, it was done in age groups 
Just started to register 30 + year olds


----------



## bholler

Just got our second Pfizer shot today.  A sore arm and fatigue but not bad.  I worked around the house so can't be to bad


----------



## PaulOinMA

31 hour out from Pfizer #2.  All o.k.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

Well, since you're vaccinated for covid now , how about you take your mask off and act like normal people now.


----------



## begreen

*We know *that COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing COVID-19 disease, especially severe illness and death.
*We’re still learning* how effective the vaccines are against variants of the virus that causes COVID-19. Early data show the vaccines may work against some variants but could be less effective against others.

*We know* that other prevention stepshelp stop the spread of COVID-19, and that these steps are still important, even as vaccines are being distributed.
*We’re still learning* how well COVID-19 vaccines keep people from spreading the disease.
Early data show that the vaccines may help keep people from spreading COVID-19, but we are learning more as more people get vaccinated.

We’re still learning *how long* COVID-19 vaccines can protect people.
As we know more, CDC will continue to update our recommendations for both vaccinated and unvaccinated people.








						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Solarguy3500

My wife and I got out first shots (Pfizer) today at around noon.

I felt fine, didn't even have a sore arm so I worked outside this afternoon, added a section onto my pallet woodshed, stacked some wood, etc. Later this evening my arm started to feel slightly stiff, but not bad at all. I've definitely had regular flu shots where my arm has hurt much worse.


----------



## SpaceBus

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Well, since you're vaccinated for covid now , how about you take your mask off and act like normal people now.


That doesn't sound very responsible.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I get my second Moderna one tomorrow morning.  I had zero side effects to the first one.  We'll see how the second one goes.


----------



## mcdougy

I received my first shot of AstraZeneca on Thursday. Sore arm and a slight headache the next day. 2nd doses are booked 16 weeks later for all vaccines in Ontario currently......not a great scenario having to wait that long. I'm 45 and AstraZeneca was pretty much the only choice available. I originally hoped to get the J&J but I don't think our country has any to offer, due to lack of vaccine procurement of all 4 major offerings.


----------



## PaulOinMA

Solarguy3500 said:


> ... I've definitely had regular flu shots where my arm has hurt much worse.



I said the same.


----------



## PaulOinMA

No side effects from Pfizer #2 for me.

My wife was finally eligible here in MA last Monday.  She said that she may go online, if she wakes up at night and try to schedule an appointment.

She was up at 3 AM and was able to book an appointment for last Wednesday.  She said that she would see a slot, refresh her computer, and it was gone.

I slept through her making the reservation.

The first thing she said to me in the morning, "I have vaccine appointment."

My first thought since I slept through her making the appointment: she's going to be really upset when she fully wakes up and realizes that it was a dream.


----------



## begreen

Younger son ended up getting sick with headache, nausea and vomiting about 24 hrs after the shot. Then, by the next afternoon he felt fine again. My wife, my older son and I had little to no side effects.


----------



## paulnlee

So all these so called expected side effects are OK with all of you?  No way for something with a 99% recovery


----------



## begreen

paulnlee said:


> So all these so called expected side effects are OK with all of you?  No way for something with a 99% recovery


Yes. It's a very temporary immune system response. Coronaviruses are notorious for mutating. Think common cold. We have little idea what Sars-Cov-2 is going to mutate into. The more defenses we have the better.


----------



## johneh

paulnlee said:


> So all these so called expected side effects are OK with all of you? No way for something with a 99% recovery


Better hope you are not in that 1%
That's where I don't want to be


----------



## EbS-P

paulnlee said:


> So all these so called expected side effects are OK with all of you?  No way for something with a 99% recovery


Yes. I am for keeping as many of our loved ones with as long as possible.


----------



## bholler

paulnlee said:


> So all these so called expected side effects are OK with all of you?  No way for something with a 99% recovery


Absolutely.  Those minor and short lived side effects are much better than what you get with covid.  And the survival rate is 99%.   Complete recovery is much less at this point.  We just don't know how long the after effects some people are experiencing will last if they ever go away.  We also don't know what other ones might show up.

So no personally I am was not really worried about dying from it myself.  But I have lots of customers whose houses I am in atleast once a year who are high risk.  If I brought it into their house it could easily kill them.  Not to mention untill we develop herd immunity either naturally (which would mean hundreds of thousands more dead people)  or through vaccination it isn't going anywhere.

So yes I am absolutely willing to go through a couple days of discomfort for the good of humanity.


----------



## begreen

johneh said:


> Better hope you are not in that 1%
> That's where I don't want to be


Depending on one's age group, co-morbidities, and the variant, that number can change.  Meanwhile...

...Bjorkman shares this certainty. “This isn’t going to be the last one,” she says. “We’re going to have SARS-CoV-3 and SARS-CoV-4. Everyone said this before the current pandemic. Most of the world ignored them. To do so again would really be burying your head in the sand.”








						One Vaccine to Rule Them All
					

What if a single vaccine could protect us against SARS, MERS, COVID-19, and every other coronavirus-related disease, forever and ever?




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## PaulOinMA

My parish priest recently had COVID.   Guy on a car website I frequent, too.  Both recovered and said it is something you don't want to experience.   So glad I received the vaccine.


----------



## bholler

PaulOinMA said:


> My parish priest recently had COVID.   Guy on a car website I frequent, too.  Both recovered and said it is something you don't want to experience.   So glad I received the vaccine.


I know some people who were pretty unaffected and others who had really bad symptoms.  And a few who died.  It affects everyone differently you just don't know until you get it.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Just got my second dose of Moderna this morning.  I am feeling a bit tired now.  That's all I have so far.  I didn't have any side effects after my first one.


----------



## tlc1976

bholler said:


> Absolutely.  Those minor and short lived side effects are much better than what you get with covid.  And the survival rate is 99%.   Complete recovery is much less at this point.  We just don't know how long the after effects some people are experiencing will last if they ever go away.  We also don't know what other ones might show up.
> 
> So no personally I am was not really worried about dying from it myself.  But I have lots of customers whose houses I am in atleast once a year who are high risk.  If I brought it into their house it could easily kill them.  Not to mention untill we develop herd immunity either naturally (which would mean hundreds of thousands more dead people)  or through vaccination it isn't going anywhere.
> 
> So yes I am absolutely willing to go through a couple days of discomfort for the good of humanity.



I’ve had problems with blood clots for many years and have had 3 DVTs, I’m always doing things to avoid them. Covid causes blood clots in many people, that’s the last thing I need is another source of clots.

A lot of people who survive Covid end up with debilitating problems and can’t work again. Don’t want that either. Loss of smell can be dangerous or deadly too, especially when you can’t detect smoke or a gas leak.


----------



## bholler

tlc1976 said:


> I’ve had problems with blood clots for many years and have had 3 DVTs, I’m always doing things to avoid them. Covid causes blood clots in many people, that’s the last thing I need is another source of clots.
> 
> A lot of people who survive Covid end up with debilitating problems and can’t work again. Don’t want that either. Loss of smell can be dangerous or deadly too, especially when you can’t detect smoke or a gas leak.


Yeah but clearly avoiding all of those potential problems and a 1% chance of death isn't worth the risk of a day or 2 of mild flue symptoms.  My wife's grandfather died of a stroke 3 months after recovering from covid.  Now he was 97 and ready to go but still.


----------



## begreen

bholler said:


> I know some people who were pretty unaffected and others who had really bad symptoms.  And a few who died.  It affects everyone differently you just don't know until you get it.


It will be great when they understand why this is and then maybe can test for it.


----------



## tlc1976

begreen said:


> It will be great when they understand why this is and then maybe can test for it.


They’re getting there.








						COVID-19: 5 blood proteins predict critical illness and death
					

New research finds that among people hospitalized with COVID-19, five blood proteins are higher in those who go on to require critical care.




					www.medicalnewstoday.com


----------



## firefighterjake

The devil you know is often better than the devil you don't . . . guy at work who had Covid 19 a number of months ago still does not have his sense of taste back. Me . . . I like food way too much to take that chance.


----------



## MoDoug

begreen said:


> It will be great when they understand why this is and then maybe can test for it.


Hear's a read, for whatever it's worth.









						Pentagon unveils sensor that detects Covid in the body
					

Invention inspired by huge virus outbreak on board USS Theodore Roosevelt




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## tlc1976

firefighterjake said:


> The devil you know is often better than the devil you don't . . . guy at work who had Covid 19 a number of months ago still does not have his sense of taste back. Me . . . I like food way too much to take that chance.



My daughter had it around new year’s I think. She eventually got her taste back but still can’t smell much of anything. Before the taste came back, she said everything was screwed up like most food tasted like chemicals.


----------



## begreen

MoDoug said:


> Hear's a read, for whatever it's worth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pentagon unveils sensor that detects Covid in the body
> 
> 
> Invention inspired by huge virus outbreak on board USS Theodore Roosevelt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk


I don't have a subscription, but found other information on this sensor. I hope they keep working on this direction, An early detection system for cancer would be huge.


----------



## MoDoug

begreen said:


> I don't have a subscription, but found other information on this sensor. I hope they keep working on this direction, An early detection system for cancer would be huge.


I don't have a subscription to that site either, I just ran across the article. If this research could lead to an early detection for cancer, that would be huge. Although my preference for it would be something a doctor could use during visits. I thought it was an interesting read.


----------



## clancey

They have dogs that can sniff out covid and they are using them..I bet dogs could sniff out cancer too..clancey


----------



## MoDoug

clancey said:


> They have dogs that can sniff out covid and they are using them..I bet dogs could sniff out cancer too..clancey


It's funny you mention this clancey, there are dogs that can detect cancer, and I came this close >-< to mentioning that, but thought I'd keep it simple. However I'm sure training them has to be very pricey, and there would have to be a LOT of dogs to do what detectors could do.


----------



## stoveliker

Yeah, a day of misery is preferable to me over a 1% chance of kicking the bucket PLUS the much bigger risk of others kicking the bucket because I infected them. Having that weighing go the other way for any reason other than medical inability to take the vaccine is simply egocentrism IMHO.

My young daughter had it a few weeks ago. No smell. Two days of thinking "is she coughing?" and that was it for us. My wife was fully vaccinated but me and my son not (in fact I had to postpone my first shot because of this, which made me quite pissed), but consistently cleaning, wearing a mask in house etc. we could avoid infecting more people. Likely hugely helped by the minor symptoms (no coughing) of my daughter, but still. I felt accomplished.

Wednesday my second shot. Happy about that.


----------



## SpaceBus

My wife and I got the J&J shot yesterday. It was pretty uncomfortable going in and distinctly felt a lot like the yellow fever vaccines I got while in the army every two years. Last night we hardly slept and I kept waking up coughing up mucous from my throat. Not as bad as some of the other people I've seen react to this thing, but not pleasant. Honestly we didn't really want the shot, but we knew it was the best thing to do.


----------



## stoveliker

Got my second Pfizer shot yesterday. Same sore arm, but quite the head ache (and clouds in my head). Bit better now. Hope it'll quiet down over the day and that is it.

Was busy at the county vaccination place.


----------



## JRHAWK9

SpaceBus said:


> It was pretty uncomfortable going in



really?  Wonder if they did not do it "correctly"?  I couldn't feel either of mine and could not tell if the needle was in or out.  Pretty painless.  I've felt more being bit by a fly.  They injected me pretty high up in the shoulder.  I was pleasantly surprised at how painless it was.  I had both of mine done at the local Walgreens.


----------



## PaulOinMA

Same here.  Barely felt the needle , if at all.  I thought, "did they really do the second shot?"


----------



## stoveliker

PaulOinMA said:


> Same here.  Barely felt the needle , if at all.  I thought, "did they really do the second shot?"



Here too. I heard stories about the amount of fluid being injected. But it was not noticeable to me. Until the new experience of not being able to lift the (good choice) left arm above shoulder level...


----------



## SpaceBus

JRHAWK9 said:


> really?  Wonder if they did not do it "correctly"?  I couldn't feel either of mine and could not tell if the needle was in or out.  Pretty painless.  I've felt more being bit by a fly.  They injected me pretty high up in the shoulder.  I was pleasantly surprised at how painless it was.  I had both of mine done at the local Walgreens.


Differences in vaccines. I had the one shot J&J and it felt like some other injections I've had in the past, like the yellow fever vaccine I mentioned.


----------



## JRHAWK9

SpaceBus said:


> Differences in vaccines. I had the one shot J&J and it felt like some other injections I've had in the past, like the yellow fever vaccine I mentioned.



Do they use different sized needles?  My sister got the J&J one, I just texted her to ask her about it.  She responded it made her flinch a little.  Whatever that means!


----------



## SpaceBus

JRHAWK9 said:


> Do they use different sized needles?  My sister got the J&J one, I just texted her to ask her about it.  She responded it made her flinch a little.  Whatever that means!


Has nothing to do with the needle, I didn't even feel that part. I guess you've never had to get the "peanut butter shot".


----------



## vinny11950

Got my second shot of Pfizer on Monday.  Today is the first day that I don't feel tired and achy.  Tuesday night was very uncomfortable.  Going up and down the stairs felt like my knees were going to break.  Glad that part of it is over.  Looking forward to my short vacation to the Jersey shore in early June.


----------



## JRHAWK9

SpaceBus said:


> Has nothing to do with the needle, I didn't even feel that part. I guess you've never had to get the "peanut butter shot".



ahhhh.....gotcha, so it's the actual injection of the substance into your muscle which was the uncomfortable part.  

You are right, I have very limited experience with vaccines and needles in general.  I vaguely remember getting some vaccine booster (maybe??) back when I was teenager or something, but don't remember much about it.  Other than that it's just been from getting poked by "vampires" to have blood panels ran.


----------



## SpaceBus

JRHAWK9 said:


> ahhhh.....gotcha, so it's the actual injection of the substance into your muscle which was the uncomfortable part.
> 
> You are right, I have very limited experience with vaccines and needles in general.  I vaguely remember getting some vaccine booster (maybe??) back when I was teenager or something, but don't remember much about it.  Other than that it's just been from getting poked by "vampires" to have blood panels ran.


I've had to get many vials of blood taken and those needles are easily the most uncomfortable, and I hate needles in the first place. The peanut butter shot is a penicillin shot everyone gets in basic training, among other applications, if you had one you would remember. It's probably one of the most painful injections. I'm still feeling the side effects of the J&J, but not like I was last night.


----------



## paulnlee

That gamma globulin shot I got at PI was a killer


----------



## Solarguy3500

My wife and I got our second Pfizer shots today. No side effects so far. I didn't even feel the needle and had to ask the nurse if she had actually given me the shot.
When I got home this afternoon I felt fine so I went out in the garage and took the snow tires off my wife's car and put the summer tires on.


----------



## begreen

I read yesterday that they have noted that seniors develop more antibodies if the second Pfizer shot is delayed 12 weeks. I think this is SOP in Canada, but not in the US yet. We are expecting to be getting a booster shot in the fall.


----------



## festerw

My 13 year old got her 1st yesterday. We leave for Texas June 8 so she'll get her 2nd a few days before we leave.

She's ok other than a sore arm and being tired but she was also up until 2 last night with her friends chatting after they went to a dance so...


----------



## Solarguy3500

So today I did have some mild effects. Fatigue, sore arm, general achiness.

I had hoped to change the oil in my lawn tractor and zero turn mower today, but after I got done with the tractor, I decided to take it easy the rest of the day.

My wife had no effects at all today.


----------



## Sawset

Second dose of moderna last Sunday. Tuesday I slept. Way more than normal.  Odd that I'm not up late, up early.  Zapped. By Thursday back to normal. Kept thinking, if this is mild, what is covid like, don't want to know.


----------



## Sawset

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> what the media is spewing


Nice. I ditched the media long ago.


----------



## PaulOinMA

Looks like we lost a post.   

Getting the flu shot next month at my annual physical.  Recently saw a commercial for Prevnar (pneumonia vaccine).  Was going too ask my physician about it.  Already had two shingles shots and two COVID shots earlier this year.

I'm turning into a pin cushion.


----------



## peakbagger

The new pneumonia vaccine is reportedly far more effective than the prior version to the point that many doctors recommend getting one of the new ones even if you had the prior shot.  Things like shingles and pneumonia are both miserable things for elderly folks to get (I am 61 so starting to resemble the "elderly" comment . Both my parents had shingles, the VA gave my dad a case of pain patches, when he check into the assisted nursing home with my mom they informed him that he had more patches than they had in whole unit. Luckily my mom didn't have it as bad. \

My flu shot may be coming up later this week. No way do I want to go near a doctor this winter with Covid around.


----------



## PaulOinMA

Same with Shingles.  I'll be 63 in a a few weeks.  Two-shot Shingrex is recommended even if one received the prior, single-dose vaccine.  MIL  and a friend have had shingles.  The friend has had it a couple of times.  Didn't know it can be recurring.  I know I do not want to get shingles based on their experience.


----------



## begreen

PaulOinMA said:


> Same with Shingles.  I'll be 63 in a a few weeks.  Two-shot Shingrex is recommended even if one received the prior, single-dose vaccine.  MIL  and a friend have had shingles.  The friend has had it a couple of times.  Didn't know it can be recurring.  I know I do not want to get shingles based on their experience.


I'll be getting Shingrax #1 on Friday.


----------



## PaulOinMA

Thr friend that had it twice couldn't sleep.  He didn't have a bad rash.  Lots of nerve pain, though.  Couldn't find a position that was comfortable to sleep.


----------



## PaulOinMA

I am also on a car site.  We old guys on there started discussing shingles and a commonality is how bad shingles is.  Several of the guys had it, and several of us know people that have had it.  A positive in the COVID forum on that car site is that several folks are getting the shingles vaccine.

We have had two discussions on shingles in that COVID forum.  There was one earlier in the year, and it was recently mentioned again.  It's driving folks to get the shingles vaccine.

My MIL had a bad rash.  As mentioned, a friend had it twice with bad nerve pain.


----------



## begreen

My SIL almost lost her sight to shingles. It's not to be ignored.


----------



## PaulOinMA

Wow.  Hadn't heard that as a possibility.


----------



## begreen

PaulOinMA said:


> Wow.  Hadn't heard that as a possibility.


It's dangerous if it settles in around the face.


----------



## PaulOinMA

Pneumonia vaccine yesterday during my annual physical.  Flu shot last week when I did the bloodwork.  That makes six shots this year!


----------



## stoveliker

make sure you don't deflate from all the holes ;-)


----------



## MMH

Sawset said:


> Second dose of moderna last Sunday. Tuesday I slept. Way more than normal.  Odd that I'm not up late, up early.  Zapped. By Thursday back to normal. Kept thinking, if this is mild, what is covid like, don't want to know.


I can tell you everyone’s experience is slightly different between the asymptomatic cases, mild, moderate, and severe etc. I can tell you personally, that for me it was pretty mild, and the tail end was not fun (hypoxia). But I will say I don’t want to know what it would have been like unvaccinated.


----------



## semipro

Good news for those taking the COVID vaccine.  








						Vaccine confers better protection than natural immunity, CDC finds
					

A study published on Friday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention finds that natural immunity offers far weaker protection against COVID-19 than a vaccine does.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## wishlist

Just received a text message that I’m eligible for the booster shot (56 with no underlying health conditions ) from the local pharmacy where I got the shots back in March/April .   I didn’t think I would be eligible already but I’ll get it next week
.


----------



## begreen

I be boosted.


----------



## stoveliker

My wife too, yesterday


----------



## mcdougy




----------



## rottiman

Wife and I have been double vaxed with Pfizer.  Not eligible for booster until January (six month wait since last shot).


----------



## johneh

rottiman said:


> Wife and I have been double vaxed with Pfizer. Not eligible for booster until January (six month wait since last shot


Same here but have to wait till Feb for booster


----------



## tlc1976

I’m eligible for the booster anytime since I got the JJ. Hopefully can get it next week when I’m off work since the first shot knocked me down for awhile. But I’ve also got a dentist appointment and need to replace the muffler and radiator on the Jeep. And floors if I get a chance.


----------



## vinny11950

tlc1976 said:


> need to replace the muffler and radiator on the Jeep. And floors if I get a chance.


I did the radiator on my 1996 Cherokee this year (again).  The muffler and cat are barely hanging on so they need to get done too (replaced them 8 years ago, but now the price of a cat is through the roof so I will wait).  And the floors need patching too.  Good luck on doing all that.

I still need to get the flu shot, but have been avoiding it because it usually makes me tired for a few days.  And I don't qualify for the Covid booster, unless maybe if I say I am overweight and have mild asthma attacks sometimes.  But again, I am not looking forward to feeling like crap for a day or 2.  The second shot of the pfizer vaccine really messed with me for 5 days.  I felt weird and achy, like I couldn't get comfortable.


----------



## tlc1976

vinny11950 said:


> I did the radiator on my 1996 Cherokee this year (again).  The muffler and cat are barely hanging on so they need to get done too (replaced them 8 years ago, but now the price of a cat is through the roof so I will wait).  And the floors need patching too.  Good luck on doing all that.
> 
> I still need to get the flu shot, but have been avoiding it because it usually makes me tired for a few days.  And I don't qualify for the Covid booster, unless maybe if I say I am overweight and have mild asthma attacks sometimes.  But again, I am not looking forward to feeling like crap for a day or 2.  The second shot of the pfizer vaccine really messed with me for 5 days.  I felt weird and achy, like I couldn't get comfortable.


Mine’s also a 96 Cherokee. Already did brakes, ignition cylinder, battery, water pump this year. Easy to work on and one of the easiest vehicles to get parts for. I’ve always just put on universal cats from eBay. Done floors out of appliance skins in other vehicles.

Flu shot never affected me, they might as well have given me water, but I still get the shot. Got it a couple weeks ago. I got in line the first time around for the Covid shot because Covid causes blood clots and I’d already had 3 DVTs. Definitely wanna keep my protection up. I got asthma too but as long as I stay away from animals I’m fine. My lungs are already compromised from years of acid reflux damage in the past.


----------



## festerw

tlc1976 said:


> Mine’s also a 96 Cherokee. Already did brakes, ignition cylinder, battery, water pump this year. Easy to work on and one of the easiest vehicles to get parts for. I’ve always just put on universal cats from eBay. Done floors out of appliance skins in other vehicles.
> 
> Flu shot never affected me, they might as well have given me water, but I still get the shot. Got it a couple weeks ago. I got in line the first time around for the Covid shot because Covid causes blood clots and I’d already had 3 DVTs. Definitely wanna keep my protection up. I got asthma too but as long as I stay away from animals I’m fine. My lungs are already compromised from years of acid reflux damage in the past.



I used these guys when I did the floor in my 98. Fit was excellent but it was still a pain in the butt job, mostly because the front mount for the seat was also rotted out.








						All
					






					www.c2cfabrication.com


----------



## EbS-P

Got my booster last week.  Decided to mix and match Pfizer first round Moderna booster.   I was a bit slow the day after.  I went to work but couldn’t get my self to cook dinner the next day.  Ordered takeout.  

Kids got theirs on Tuesday. 2/3 complained of sore arms.  Other than that no side effects.  Will see in a couple weeks if the second shot has any different effects.  They are all pretty tough.  Army National guard was mobilized to staff the intake while supervised nursing students were administering the injections at the mall.  All in all our county and Hospital have done a great job organizing everything.   Stickers helped but a cookie the size of their face was better.  First time in a mall in almost 2 years.   

Still,  after 14 weeks, people were lining up for their weekly test rather than their shot.


----------



## jatoxico

All these Cherokee guys here! I had a 98 that was pretty rust free for a Jeep, floors, rockers were good. A few months after I did front wheel hubs, ball joints, rotors etc I got spun out and wrecked. Had a love/hate relationship w/ it but I'd rather still have it.

Got the Moderna booster and had almost no reaction. Got the flu shot a couple days after, maybe a little tired, or was that the martini w/ the blue cheese olives? Hard to say.


----------



## festerw

jatoxico said:


> All these Cherokee guys here! I had a 98 that was pretty rust free for a Jeep, floors, rockers were good. A few months after I did front wheel hubs, ball joints, rotors etc I got spun out and wrecked. Had a love/hate relationship w/ it but I'd rather still have it.
> 
> Got the Moderna booster and had almost no reaction. Got the flu shot a couple days after, maybe a little tired, or was that the martini w/ the blue cheese olives? Hard to say.



I got smart and traded my Jeeps for a Toyota 🤣


----------



## jatoxico

festerw said:


> I got smart and traded my Jeeps for a Toyota 🤣


I understand that! The Jeep did a lot well esp in the snow but it just didn't want to stay fixed, always something. Right now I have a 2000 GMC Jimmy as my 3rd car winter beater but on the look out for a 4 Runner.


----------



## marty319

First moderna shot for me was a breeze.second shot I never felt right for 3 weeks.very tired.booster in February but maybe earlier as I'm diabetic


----------



## tlc1976

festerw said:


> I got smart and traded my Jeeps for a Toyota 🤣


One thing I value with my old Cherokee is there is pretty much an endless supply of parts. I want a stock or improved version of anything, somebody probably makes it. As long as I can keep it in one piece I’ll keep driving it.

I got my booster about 90 minutes ago. I thought about which one to get for days. I couldn’t decide so I just answered with my gut without thinking, I stayed with JJ. Seemed to have worked so far. My boss had Covid like a month ago and I worked directly with him in his office immediately before his fever started and I didn’t catch it. Or if I did I didn’t know it. Luck or science I’ll never know. Also at least the side effects are predictable for me. Shot 1 behaved exactly like the clinic said it would, to the hour. I read that moderna seems to be more effective against delta but the side effects can be pretty severe and sometimes long delayed for those who have them. At least any booster is better than none.

Should be getting fever and shivers about 2am. I hauled in several days of pellets like I do anyway. And it’s nice and warm in here because I’m gonna need it tonight. Got tomorrow off work.


----------



## stoveliker

Got.my booster (waiting to be released now). Had Pfizer for the first two. Given the seemingly better duration of the immune response, I went with Moderna for my booster. 

I wonder if that's because Pfizer had two 30 microgram doses and Moderna two 100 microgram doses. The booster for Pfizer is again 30 microgram, whereas the Moderna booster is half the original dose, i.e. 50 microgram.

Kids got their first Pfizer shot a week ago. Second early December.

Now it's hoping the omicron variant is not worse than the Delta, and that our current shots work as well for this new variant.

I was hoping to travel so e (for work, and to family, none of which I've seen since summer 2019). But I am afraid this is not going to be the case in the first half of this year.

Be well all.


----------



## stoveliker

Kids got their second (kiddie) shot today.
And are now playing some made-up-ruled football game outside. Move those arms!


----------



## EbS-P

stoveliker said:


> Kids got their second (kiddie) shot today.
> And are now playing some made-up-ruled football game outside. Move those arms!


Two of  three needed a dose of Tylenol 20 hours later.  Amazing it doesn’t slow them down One bit


----------



## stoveliker

Yes, we'll see. On the way back I joked with my wife that evidently they did not get an anti COVID shot but an energy shot....


----------



## peakbagger

I went for my booster today, NH is sadly the #1 for new cases and the hospitals are full. The numbers are pretty clear 80% of the folks in the hospitals are unvaccinated. Sure some folks who had shots are getting cases but they rarely are ending up in hospitals. The net result is the state and the press are really pushing first time vaccines and boosters to knock down the numbers. Lots of stories about folks unable to get shots or they are booked way out. Our area has a fixed location for walk in shots so I got a ride over there expecting a crowd. We get there and except for a few signs the place looks empty. I go in with my crutches and the place is empty except for a few staff folks way at the end of the hall. I get my exercise and sit down. They ask me which "flavor" I want and they have me fill out a form and the give me a shot. I then have to hang around for 15 minutes and just as I am leaving a fine lookng blonde (far too young for me), comes in. So no doubt I will get a headache and feel like crap on Sunday and I will be covered for another 6 months.


----------



## rottiman

The new norm.............


----------



## peakbagger

Sad to say,, with the high percentage of folks unvaccinated Covid is going to be around a long time mutating into new varieties and we will be getting annual shots for it.


----------



## stoveliker

if that will be the norm, then I am owed a few pizza's for my yearly flu shot already...

Good joke. But it's not non-normal...


----------



## begreen

This recent update from the CDC on the efficacy of the booster shot among nursing home, our most vulnerable, is encouraging.  It works. The red line is unvaccinated. The blue line is at least one shot. The green line is fully vaccinated and with the booster.


----------



## vinny11950

There is now a wait to get the booster shot in NYC and Long Island.  All the pharmacies around me are well into January appointments now.  I got lucky and managed to find an appointment on Tuesday through my employer.  But if you want the booster anytime soon, book your appointment as soon as possible.


----------



## stoveliker

I'm happy to have gotten my booster on Nov. 28. Hope this gives.me the height of the protection right when the omicron wave is at full intensity. Kids getting their second shot Dec. 5 as well.

They are nervous in the hospital my wife works... Already speaking about cancelling elective surgeries - probably because the increase is going so fast due to the ease of spreading it.


----------



## maple1

Have to wait 168 days here from the last shot, to get boosted. What's the time in between, in other places?


----------



## rottiman

maple1 said:


> Have to wait 168 days here from the last shot, to get boosted. What's the time in between, in other places?


Was 168 here as well and they just dropped it to 90 last thursday.  We were shy by one week before they dropped it.  We were able to schedule for January 6th after the reset.


----------



## peakbagger

maple1 said:


> Have to wait 168 days here from the last shot, to get boosted. What's the time in between, in other places?


6 months was the recommendation in NH but I am unsure how closely they were looking at the mass clinics.. Most of the pharmacies were not checking as there were exceptions to the timing which did not require proof. The state is really pushign booster shots before the holidays (first it was Thanksgiving and now Christmas). With the booster taking 2 weeks to fully kick in its already too late for Christmas for many.


----------



## wishlist

Glad I got my booster a few weeks ago , unfortunately here in Michigan things aren’t trending in the right direction.  

Week 6 now of a friend who’s been in the hospital with covid .  Very outspoken about vaccine.    So sad for him and his 2 teenage daughters and wife .


----------



## peakbagger

wishlist said:


> Glad I got my booster a few weeks ago , unfortunately here in Michigan things aren’t trending in the right direction.
> 
> Week 6 now of a friend who’s been in the hospital with covid .  Very outspoken about vaccine.    So sad for him and his 2 teenage daughters and wife .


That is the sad part, I am seeing lots of obits in the papers and its not just the elderly.


----------



## vinny11950

Hopefully that Pfizer treatment drug will be approved soon and save a lot of lives.  I have seen some models that show the middle to end of January the infection rate will take off.  I believe it.  With all the Holiday travel, without mitigation efforts, this thing is going to take off.


----------



## EbS-P

We are skeptical that in my very small home town cause of death was being accurately reported.  It appeared that Pneumonia was overly prevalent.  

I am reading that 25-50% Covid patients can experience systems 6 months and beyond.  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...ferral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_term=101321

We volunteered at our children’s elementary school on Friday.  Mask became option two weeks before by vote of the school board.  3/4 of the kids were still wearing them.  It gave me some hope.  We are guessing from the way the kids are talking about 2/3-maybe as high as 3/4 of their class is vaccinated. Friday marked two weeks since their second shot.   I think this is very atypical for a public school and feel very fortunate to have a school like this for our kids to attend.


----------



## Solarguy3500

Got my booster on Monday. Tried several pharmacies last week, but all were booked out pretty far. My sister found out about an urgent care place about 1/2 hour from my house that takes walk ins, so I went there.


----------



## vinny11950

Got my booster on Monday, chose Moderna.  And boy, it knocked me out.  Fever and chills Monday night, all of Tuesday, could barely work.  Fever went away last night and now I just feel tired.


----------



## bholler

PureBloodBallin said:


> Well, I just want to point out that there have been more VAERS for the SARS-2 vaxs in the last 11mos than all others combined since 91’.
> 
> Had it in Jan of 20 & again in September of 21. Second time not too bad. First time was you know where…
> 
> Had a fellow who got the jab here at the shop & I was working with him for 2 days straight… close contact. Was sick by the weekend. Didn’t go around anyone else and I was the only who came down with it whilst no one else on staff is vax’d.
> 
> Unfortunately he is now out with heart issues post his second dose… his daughter encouraged him to take it or he couldn’t see his grandkids.
> 
> This sucks because he is the man! We need him back on staff yesterday. I really shook up about all of it - sucks.
> 
> 3rd post on the forum. Will I make to 4?
> 
> I feel like this place is highly biased, change my mind. Are we free to speak freely here?


I am a bit confused.  Are you claiming you got covid from him due him having the vaccine?

Yes a very small percentage of people do have an adverse reaction to the vaccine.   But the numbers are extremely low.  Actual science has proven it helps far more people than it hurts


----------



## bigealta

Got moderna booster about 3 -4 weeks ago. No big reactions to any of the shots other than being tired for the rest of the day. 
Now I just Tested Positive with rapid pcr test at Doctor office. 
No symptoms only got tested because we were supposed to go to Christmas with elderly family. Wife tested negative yesterday and confirmed with negative 2nd test at doctor office this morning.

I don't come in contact with many people, am super careful, and wear mask everywhere inside. Have no idea how i got it.


----------



## PaulOinMA

PureBloodBallin said:


> I feel like this place is highly biased, change my mind. Are we free to speak freely here?



There is open discussion here.  Joining with a first post that "this site is highly biased" gives the impression you have an agenda to promote.

Fact-based, science discussions are always welcome.


----------



## stoveliker

PureBloodBallin said:


> Well, I just want to point out that there have been more VAERS for the SARS-2 vaxs in the last 11mos than all others combined since 91’.
> 
> Had it in Jan of 20 & again in September of 21. Second time not too bad. First time was you know where…
> 
> Had a fellow who got the jab here at the shop & I was working with him for 2 days straight… close contact. Was sick by the weekend. Didn’t go around anyone else and I was the only who came down with it whilst no one else on staff is vax’d.
> 
> Unfortunately he is now out with heart issues post his second dose… his daughter encouraged him to take it or he couldn’t see his grandkids.
> 
> This sucks because he is the man! We need him back on staff yesterday. I really shook up about all of it - sucks.
> 
> 3rd post on the forum. Will I make to 4?
> 
> I feel like this place is highly biased, change my mind. Are we free to speak freely here?



I think you should be fine. You don't claim (incorrect) facts. You do imply a correlation where there most likely is only coincidence. The rest is opinion not disguised as fact.


----------



## stoveliker

bigealta said:


> Got moderna booster about 3 -4 weeks ago. No big reactions to any of the shots other than being tired for the rest of the day.
> Now I just Tested Positive with rapid pcr test at Doctor office.
> No symptoms only got tested because we were supposed to go to Christmas with elderly family. Wife tested negative yesterday and confirmed with negative 2nd test at doctor office this morning.
> 
> I don't come in contact with many people, am super careful, and wear mask everywhere inside. Have no idea how i got it.



The new variant may be such that you need to inhale less particles to get infected. And surgical masks greatly decrease the amount inhaled, but don't make it zero. Hence the probability of getting it when wearing a mask was nice and low. With the new variant it may not be low enough anymore.

I've seen advice that it might be good to wear a (K)N95 with this new variant as it cuts down more on the inhaled particle load.


----------



## bigealta

stoveliker said:


> The new variant may be such that you need to inhale less particles to get infected. And surgical masks greatly decrease the amount inhaled, but don't make it zero. Hence the probability of getting it when wearing a mask was nice and low. With the new variant it may not be low enough anymore.
> 
> I've seen advice that it might be good to wear a (K)N95 with this new variant as it cuts down more on the inhaled particle load.


Yeah i used to wear a p100 respirator at the grocery store before we got vac. These surgical masks clearly only "help" where a real respirator should actually protect you for real. Hopefully the vac. will do it's job and protect from bad symptoms and that this omicrom will spike and collapse quickly.


----------



## bholler

bigealta said:


> Yeah i used to wear a p100 respirator at the grocery store before we got vac. These surgical masks clearly only "help" where a real respirator should actually protect you for real. Hopefully the vac. will do it's job and protect from bad symptoms and that this omicrom will spike and collapse quickly.
> 
> View attachment 288339


Respirators like that certainly protect you better.  But do very little to protect others from you because of the exhale valve.


----------



## blades

Got nailed with the bug Feb. of 2020- at the time the "practitioners of the black arts" had no idea what was going on.   My internals for what ever reason seldom take kindly to the various shots/pills.  There for I have not taken any jabs to date.  Back in the mid 70's my wife, at the time, nagged the xxxx out of me to get the influenza shot- put me in the hospital for week - she  got sick  at the same time  within a day of the jab.  Been a couple other items with same effect over the years.


----------



## bholler

blades said:


> Got nailed with the bug Feb. of 2020- at the time the "practitioners of the black arts" had no idea what was going on.   My internals for what ever reason seldom take kindly to the various shots/pills.  There for I have not taken any jabs to date.  Back in the mid 70's my wife, at the time, nagged the xxxx out of me to get the influenza shot- put me in the hospital for week - she  got sick  at the same time  within a day of the jab.  Been a couple other items with same effect over the years.


Yes some people absolutely have severe reactions to vaccines.  Which is why it's important everyone who can get them does so we can protect those who  can't


----------



## bigealta

bholler said:


> Respirators like that certainly protect you better.  But do very little to protect others from you because of the exhale valve.


Yeah on the plane i would put surgical mask over the respirator to filter the outlet.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

PaulOinMA said:


> There is open discussion here.  Joining with a first post that "this site is highly biased" gives the impression you have an agenda to promote.
> 
> Fact-based, science discussions are always welcome.


This is not an "open" discussion forum. If you disagree with any of the moderators,  your posts are removed. What is a fact? Something you believe to be true? Something I believe to be true? Something a politician tells you is truth? Something a "factchecker" says is true?
Same with science.  Truth and science is that you are born either male or female. But wait! "Science" now  says that saying there are only 2 genders is discriminatory.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bigealta said:


> Got moderna booster about 3 -4 weeks ago. No big reactions to any of the shots other than being tired for the rest of the day.
> Now I just Tested Positive with rapid pcr test at Doctor office.
> No symptoms only got tested because we were supposed to go to Christmas with elderly family. Wife tested negative yesterday and confirmed with negative 2nd test at doctor office this morning.
> 
> I don't come in contact with many people, am super careful, and wear mask everywhere inside. Have no idea how i got it.


Ummm.... Did you ever consider that maybe masks do not keep you from getting a virus?


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

wishlist said:


> Glad I got my booster a few weeks ago , unfortunately here in Michigan things aren’t trending in the right direction.
> 
> Week 6 now of a friend who’s been in the hospital with covid .  Very outspoken about vaccine.    So sad for him and his 2 teenage daughters and wife .


That is his choice... He will have to live with the consequences. 
Same as someone who smokes....
Or someone that eats junk food...
Should we force them to do what WE think is best for them?


----------



## stoveliker

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> This is not an "open" discussion forum. If you disagree with any of the moderators,  your posts are removed. What is a fact? Something you believe to be true? Something I believe to be true? Something a politician tells you is truth? Something a "factchecker" says is true?
> Same with science.  Truth and science is that you are born either male or female. But wait! "Science" now  says that saying there are only 2 genders is discriminatory.



Facts have numbers to back them up. Not anecdotes.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

stoveliker said:


> Facts have numbers to back them up. Not anecdotes.


Yes, but who is coming up with the numbers?
Because they say it, does that make it truth?


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Ummm.... Did you ever consider that maybe masks do not keep you from getting a virus?


Who said they did????

Masks have been proven over and over to reduce the risk of spreading the virus to others.  They only protect the wearer slightly.   Again try looking at actual scientific studies.


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Yes, but who is coming up with the numbers?
> Because they say it, does that make it truth?


Actual scientists and doctors.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bholler said:


> Actual scientists and doctors.


Because a doctor or scientist says it, does that make it truth? 
Are they ever mistaken? 
Are they ever swayed by politics?


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> This is not an "open" discussion forum. If you disagree with any of the moderators, your posts are removed.


It is an open discussion forum.  It is just one with rules if you can't follow them the posts are removed.  Eventually the poster will be if they continue to ignore the rules


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Because a doctor or scientist says it, does that make it truth?
> Are they ever mistaken?
> Are they ever swayed by politics?


Not because a doctor or scientist says so.  Because the vast majority say so and have actual studies and data to back up what they are saying.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bholler said:


> Who said they did????
> 
> Masks have been proven over and over to reduce the risk of spreading the virus to others.  They only protect the wearer slightly.   Again try looking at actual scientific studies.


That is not true...
There are ZER0, peer reviewed studies that show that.
True, there are some people that claim that.
Does that make it true, because they said it?

Remember recently when someone  said "give 100 days, and i will get rid of Covid"
Was that true or false?


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> That is not true...
> There are ZER0, peer reviewed studies that show that.
> True, there are some people that claim that.
> Does that make it true, because they said it?
> 
> Remember recently when someone  said "give 100 days, and i will get rid of Covid"
> Was that true or false?


I have shown you over a dozen studies in the past which you refused to look at.  Just because you ignore the evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist


----------



## stoveliker

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> That is not true...
> There are ZER0, peer reviewed studies that show that.
> True, there are some people that claim that.
> Does that make it true, because they said it?
> 
> Remember recently when someone  said "give 100 days, and i will get rid of Covid"
> Was that true or false?











						Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov
				



See the table which includes peer reviewed studies. Your statement is incorrect, in normal parlance that is called a lie.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bholler said:


> I have shown you over a dozen studies in the past which you refused to look at.  Just because you ignore the evidence doesn't mean it doesn't exist


I said PEER REVIEWED. 
Just because some doctor/scientist says something,  does not make it true. 
And you did not answer my other question  about the 100 days.


----------



## wishlist

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> That is his choice... He will have to live with the consequences.
> Same as someone who smokes....
> Or someone that eats junk food...
> Should we force them to do what WE think is best for them?


I showed your post to my wife FF.   Her response I cannot post on here .   She’s been a RN and now a DON for over 30 years .  She sees  first hand the death and sickness that she has never seen in her career .  Heath care workers are exhausted and extremely short staffed .   This IS first hand knowledge ! 

To know that a vast majority ( 90 plus percent ) of these hospitalizations could have been avoided is just plain ridiculous.    

You say examples of people who smoke , or eats junk food . Good examples of people having free choices to do what they want .  Could you please give us a history lesson when your examples caused so much death in such a short time or better yet when we HAD to refuse treatment in our hospitals for certain healthcare because the “ hospital was full of people who smoked” !    Bet you can’t .


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> I said PEER REVIEWED.
> Just because some doctor/scientist says something,  does not make it true.
> And you did not answer my other question  about the 100 days.


I didn't answer that question because that wasn't said.  Just more misinformation.

And again I provided you with multiple peer reviewed studies


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bholler said:


> I didn't answer that question because that wasn't said.  Just more misinformation.
> 
> And again I provided you with multiple peer reviewed studies


Biden said that... maybe not in those exact words, but something to that effect. Was he lying? Or was he wrong? Take your pick. It is one or the other...
 So let's give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he was wrong. Here, the president of the United States, with access to so much information, is still wrong. My point is, just because the president of the United States says so,  does not make it true. The same goes for every person that you rely on for facts.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

wishlist said:


> I showed your post to my wife FF.   Her response I cannot post on here .   She’s been a RN and now a DON for over 30 years .  She sees  first hand the death and sickness that she has never seen in her career .  Heath care workers are exhausted and extremely short staffed .   This IS first hand knowledge !
> 
> To know that a vast majority ( 90 plus percent ) of these hospitalizations could have been avoided is just plain ridiculous.
> 
> You say examples of people who smoke , or eats junk food . Good examples of people having free choices to do what they want .  Could you please give us a history lesson when your examples caused so much death in such a short time or better yet when we HAD to refuse treatment in our hospitals for certain healthcare because the “ hospital was full of people who smoked” !    Bet you can’t .


You say that 90% all these hospitalizations could have been avoided. How could that have been done?


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Biden said that... maybe not in those exact words, but something to that effect. Was he lying? Or was he wrong? Take your pick. It is one or the other...
> So let's give him the benefit of the doubt, and say that he was wrong. Here, the president of the United States, with access to so much information, is still wrong. My point is, just because the president of the United States says so,  does not make it true. The same goes for every person that you rely on for facts.


He said he would have a plan to combat covid and a system in place to distribute the vaccine within the first 100 days.  He did that.  Did it get rid of covid?  No clearly not.  But it wasn't a lie.

I don't rely on a person for facts.  I rely on the entire world scientific community.


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> You say that 90% all these hospitalizations could have been avoided. How could that have been done?


By getting vaccinated.


----------



## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bholler said:


> By getting vaccinated.


Does getting vaccinated, prevent you from getting covid?



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/12/22/royal-caribbean-covid-outbreak-odyssey/


----------



## peakbagger

Sad to say, you cant fix ignorance but I can click ignore.


----------



## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> Does getting vaccinated, prevent you from getting covid?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2021/12/22/royal-caribbean-covid-outbreak-odyssey/


Prevent?  No.  Reduce the risk of contracting it?  Absolutely.  Reduce the severity of symptoms in those who get it?  Dramatically yes.


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## wishlist

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> You say that 90% all these hospitalizations could have been avoided. How could that have been done?


Facts…… over 90% of patients in the hospital with covid are unvaccinated.    What does that tell you FF ?    
I just recently attended my uncles funeral , no not from covid .   Many in my immediate family became sick and tested positive for covid .   Not a single 1 of them even had to go to the Dr or hospital .  Yes they had mild symptoms, headache , loss of taste / smell .   But guess what , every last one of them including my BIL with some severe past health issues was fully vaccinated.   Sure that’s a small sample but it is what it is .   You can twist and turn any way you would like but it’s a fact .    

  We have just over 61% of people in the US fully vaccinated .  Israel has over 91% fully vaccinated and they average 1 death per day in the whole dang country !   Population wise that’s the equivalent of us having 35 deaths per day .   

I’m not gonna get into your political post FF .  
That’s just asking for the  thread to be shutdown and that’s sad .  
The thread is “ Got my Vaccine “  so maybe we can keep it on track and stay out of the political crap .


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bholler said:


> Prevent?  No.  Reduce the risk of contracting it?  Absolutely.  Reduce the severity of symptoms in those who get it?  Dramatically yes.


So let's sum it up here. 
Getting vaccinated does not prevent you from getting covid. Getting vaccinated does not prevent you from spreading covid. As per the people on the ship. They had testing protocols, and mask protocols in place. They obviously did not work, as they had a covid outbreak. Did the vaccines help prevent hospitalization? I don't know. Do you know? Some people claim they do... Are they speaking the truth? What is wrong with me taking the chance that it does not reduce hospitalization??? You being vaccinated, spread covid as much me.


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## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> So let's sum it up here.
> Getting vaccinated does not prevent you from getting covid. Getting vaccinated does not prevent you from spreading covid. As per the people on the ship. They had testing protocols, and mask protocols in place. They obviously did not work, as they had a covid outbreak. Did the vaccines help prevent hospitalization? I don't know. Do you know? Some people claim they do... Are they speaking the truth? What is wrong with me taking the chance that it does not reduce hospitalization??? You being vaccinated, spread covid as much me.


Again simply denying that evidence exists doesn't make that evidence go away.  Just makes it clear you dont actually care to educate yourself.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace

bholler said:


> Again simply denying that evidence exists doesn't make that evidence go away.  Just makes it clear you dont actually care to educate yourself.


I want to educate myself, but not with propaganda. Why can't you answer the questions that I ask, instead of attacking me?


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## bholler

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> I want to educate myself, but not with propaganda. Why can't you answer the questions that I ask, instead of attacking me?


Your questions have been answered many times here.  They have been answered by the world scientific community over and over.  You just choose to ignore that.


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## wishlist

Fingerlakes Fireplace said:


> So let's sum it up here.
> Getting vaccinated does not prevent you from getting covid. Getting vaccinated does not prevent you from spreading covid. As per the people on the ship. They had testing protocols, and mask protocols in place. They obviously did not work, as they had a covid outbreak. Did the vaccines help prevent hospitalization? I don't know. Do you know? Some people claim they do... Are they speaking the truth? What is wrong with me taking the chance that it does not reduce hospitalization??? You being vaccinated, spread covid as much me.


You do whatever you want FF .  Wonder if you were this adamant when you refused your other vaccines ?  You know , the ones to go to school or the one you need to go to college ?  

 Sure wish you could spend a day with my wife on the ICU ward taking care of  unvaccinated people unable to breath for weeks on end and on a ventilator or worse .


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## bholler

wishlist said:


> You do whatever you want FF .  Wonder if you were this adamant when you refused your other vaccines ?  You know , the ones to go to school or the one you need to go to college ?
> 
> Sure wish you could spend a day with my wife on the ICU ward taking care of  unvaccinated people unable to breath for weeks on end and on a ventilator or worse .


One of my best friends works in a very similar situation.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace

wishlist said:


> You do whatever you want FF .


Thank You!
I wish more people saw it your way. 
I am responsible for my health, not the government. When you have to force someone to save themselves, there is a problem.


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## stoveliker

Look, we won't agree. But I'd like to keep this thread open. So let's please enjoy Christmas eve and stop here.


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## Fingerlakes Fireplace

stoveliker said:


> Look, we won't agree. But I'd like to keep this thread open. So let's please enjoy Christmas eve and stop here.


I do not ask you to agree with me. Non of us have been here before, and know the truth. But please dont silence other people because they believe in "misinformation " according to the "professionals"
 of the day. Merry Christmas to You and your family.


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## stoveliker

Merry Christmas to all.


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## begreen

Wrapping this one up for the holidays. It's running off the rails again. Hopefully most are now vaccinated and have gotten a booster shot. This virus is not done with us. It's still teaching and we are still learning. I will leave off with an analogy using winter tires sent to me by a friend:

I refuse to put on winter tires because:
• It’s my car, my choice, my freedom.
• The effectiveness of winter tires is not proven, except by studies carried out by the manufacturers (like I’m supposed to trust them).
• My neighbor Bob had an accident even after putting on winter tires.
• Some drivers are already on their 3rd set of tires, which proves their ineffectiveness.
• We do not know what the tires are made of.
• The tire manufacturers scare us with winter just to enrich themselves.
• In fact, I read on the internet that the tire giants invented snow and spread it at night when you sleep.
• If I have winter tires, the government can track me in the snow.

Educate yourself, open your eyes, stop being sheep!

This year, I say no to winter tires! 😁


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