# Woodstock's new stove; some updates



## Backwoods Savage (Aug 23, 2013)

Here are a couple links folks might want to check out:

http://blog.woodstove.com/

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Woodstock-Soapstone-Co/123135437743584


Just a little more information on the new wood stove that is being developed right now. Here are a couple pictures. One shows some of the ideas for the stove and the other is a picture of the door leading into the Woodstock showroom.






The graph below is from the BBB and really shows Woodstock way out in front in the customer service area. They have well earned this rating as most folks on hearth.com already know:  http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2013/07/better-business-bureau-and-wood-stove.html






I'll post a bit more later, hopefully but this will get the threat started. I will say though that the design of the stove is still somewhat in the works because they have not yet found a model to say in that stove to get his or her picture taken like the model above.


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## begreen (Aug 23, 2013)

Is this a threat of yet another Union plug?


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 23, 2013)

No threats involved but would like to let folks know where they can find some more good reading. And to let others know that there is still much work to be done in a very short time frame.

No doubt some will ask about a release date but that has yet to be determined so hopefully folks won't get too upset but know this will be released as soon as it is ready.


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## begreen (Aug 23, 2013)

> hopefully but this will get the threat started.


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## oldspark (Aug 23, 2013)

Another new stove?


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 23, 2013)

This is the new Union Hybrid that has been entered in the Popular Science contest.


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## rideau (Aug 23, 2013)

The most interesting thing about Woodstock's new post is that it seems as if this is going to be a very inexpensive stove with very high quality engineering. They are maximizing the use of steel, while still using cast iron and soapstone, to keep cost well below usual Woodstock prices. It will be interesting to see what we are actually talking....$1000, $1500, $2000, $2500?  It is bigger than the PH, which lists over $3500.  This is a very large stove that will produce enough heat to heat almost any home. Will it be versatile enough to be used in any size home? Perhaps. I'm thinking if this is as exciting a stove as it sounds that it may be, then Woodstock sales will go way up, as I don't think they will lose the market they have for the current stoves. How will they handle the demand of significantly increased production? Their PH is already outselling the Fireview, so there was definitely a significant demand for larger stoves.


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## mellow (Aug 23, 2013)

Can't wait to see the prototype in November.


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## fox9988 (Aug 23, 2013)

Please don't be anonymous! We're looking for a few more beta testers for Sept-Nov., so if you live in a cold climate (ideally within a few hours drive from us), feel free to contact me.

Lorin
lorind@woodstove.com
Customer Service Manager 
Woodstock Soapstone Co.

Anyone in on this?


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## BrianK (Aug 23, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> I'll post a bit more later, hopefully but this will get the threat started. I will say though that the design of the stove is still somewhat in the works because they have not yet found a model to say in that stove to get his or her picture taken like the model above.


 
Thanks for the update Dennis.

I just sent Lorin an email. I hope to be considered for the Beta testing.


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## oldspark (Aug 23, 2013)

Well I am too far away other wise I would give it a try, trying a new stove out sounds like fun.


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## BrianK (Aug 23, 2013)

fox9988 said:


> Please don't be anonymous! We're looking for a few more beta testers for Sept-Nov., so if you live in a cold climate (ideally within a few hours drive from us), feel free to contact me.
> 
> Lorin
> lorind@woodstove.com
> ...


 
I am now, I already got a call back from Lorin, just a half hour after sending an email


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## BrianK (Aug 23, 2013)

rideau said:


> This is a very large stove that will produce enough heat to heat almost any home. Will it be versatile enough to be used in any size home? Perhaps. I'm thinking if this is as exciting a stove as it sounds that it may be, then Woodstock sales will go way up, as I don't think they will lose the market they have for the current stoves. How will they handle the demand of significantly increased production? Their PH is already outselling the Fireview, so there was definitely a significant demand for larger stoves.


 
Lorin at Woodstock just said the firebox on this stove is actually larger than the one on the Progress (and they are considering a cook top for this stove too, similar to the Progress). And apparently they have a new water jet cutter (?) for manufacturing the new stove, according to Penny, who gave us the tour when we visited August 8th. So they do seem to be gearing up to ramp up in house production capacity.


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## alforit (Aug 23, 2013)

BrianK said:


> I am now, I already got a call back from Lorin, just a half hour after sending an email




That's awesome Brian ! Excited for ya !  Will be fishin for feedback info from ya.......burn times etc....   and all that good stuff...heh


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 23, 2013)

The firebox will be larger than the Progress.


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## BrianK (Aug 23, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> The firebox will be larger than the Progress.



According to their website, with its 2.8 cu ft firebox,



> Of all today’s woodstoves, the Progress Hybrid achieves the highest BTU output during EPA testing - 73,171 BTUs/hr. Perfect for large, or older drafty homes. See for yourself on the EPA’s website. Some stove manufacturers exaggerate heat outputs; EPA reporting is the bottom line. Heats up to 2200 square feet.



So if the Union Hybrid firebox is even bigger, wonder how many BTUs it will crank out compared to the Progress? And I assume burn times will be as good as or better than the Progress too.


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## kingquad (Aug 24, 2013)

rideau said:


> The most interesting thing about Woodstock's new post is that it seems as if this is going to be a very inexpensive stove with very high quality engineering. They are maximizing the use of steel, while still using cast iron and soapstone, to keep cost well below usual Woodstock prices. It will be interesting to see what we are actually talking....$1000, $1500, $2000, $2500? It is bigger than the PH, which lists over $3500. This is a very large stove that will produce enough heat to heat almost any home. Will it be versatile enough to be used in any size home? Perhaps. I'm thinking if this is as exciting a stove as it sounds that it may be, then Woodstock sales will go way up, as I don't think they will lose the market they have for the current stoves. How will they handle the demand of significantly increased production? *Their PH is already outselling the Fireview, so there was definitely a significant demand for larger stoves.*


Takes a lot of firepower to heat a Mcmansion.  Also, the looks of the Fireview don't fit in with the decor in many homes.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 24, 2013)

kingquad said:


> Takes a lot of firepower to heat a Mcmansion. Also, the looks of the Fireview don't fit in with the decor in many homes.


I personally think the Fireview is a great looking stove with 'old world charm'. However, in those cases where it might not fit in with the decor of the home, the Progress Hybrid will most likely fill the bill. I would guess that the new stove Woodstock is working on will be designed to appeal to the broadest audience possible.  And probably provide even more heat than the Progress Hybrid.  At least I hope that is the intention.


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## begreen (Aug 24, 2013)

According to my wife, no soapstone stove fits our decor, otherwise there would have been a Mansfield in place of the T6. Not that I'm complaining. The compromise was a good one.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 24, 2013)

begreen said:


> According to my wife, no soapstone stove fits our decor, otherwise there would have been a Mansfield in place of the T6. Not that I'm complaining. The compromise was a good one.


Never question the 'lady of the house' when it comes to decor !


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 24, 2013)

kingquad said:


> Takes a lot of firepower to heat a Mcmansion. Also, the looks of the Fireview don't fit in with the decor in many homes.


 
And that is why there are other choices in the Woodstock line. We recall that Todd sold his Fireview and bought a Keystone and others have done similar. I doubt there could be any one stove that would fit for everyone. That is not a bad thing and it is good that we have choices.


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 27, 2013)

A bit more on the design of the Union Hybrid stove. For more information you might want to check this link:   http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/08/under-hood.html





The more I see, the more I like. Note too that this time they are posting the 3.2 cu ft firebox.


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## mellow (Aug 27, 2013)

Can't wait to see it in action with all the electronics hooked up to it in November. Am I looking at it correctly, is the stone liner inside the firebox?

Read the link and answered my question:  It is lined with 1.125” thick soapstone on the side walls, and firebrick on the bottom.


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## Huntindog1 (Aug 27, 2013)

Stove is lined with soapstone walls and fire brick on the floor bottom. Thats impressive. Soap Stone stores alot of heat. I guess since its a steel stove they still wanted that warm smooth heat over a longer period feel so they lined it with SoapStone. I also like the idea of placement of the cat to radiate the heat out the front and top better. With A 3.2 CU FT firebox and electronic control the burn time is gonna be good.

Here is the big question, is the control system based on a 12 volt supply so you can have battery backup if needed? Or does it have a mode it can be burned in manual mode. I suspect it has manual controls to set if the power goes out.

I am saving my money up for one.


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## Highbeam (Aug 27, 2013)

Does it look like the rear flue exit guys will have to make smoke go downhill to leave the stove? That could be a bummer when opening the loading door.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 27, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> A bit more on the design of the Union Hybrid stove. For more information you might want to check this link: http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/08/under-hood.html
> 
> 
> View attachment 109605
> ...


Thanks Dennis.  This new stove sounds very interesting.  Keep us posted.


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## mellow (Aug 27, 2013)

Most rear vents I have seen need a bar or two more of vacuum then top vents anyway. I think a good draft is going to be key either way with this setup with a large door.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 27, 2013)

mellow said:


> Most rear vents I have seen need a bar or two more of vacuum then top vents anyway. I think a good draft is going to be key either way with this setup with a large door.


 A good draft is never a bad idea.


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## Todd (Aug 27, 2013)

Looks pretty awesome, wish I had a nice big house to try out one of these.


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## BrianK (Aug 27, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> A bit more on the design of the Union Hybrid stove.
> 
> The more I see, the more I like. Note too that this time they are posting the 3.2 cu ft firebox.



Excellent, thanks for the update. So its definitely a 3.2 cu ft firebox and, from the picture you posted, it looks like they are definitely incorporating a cook top similar to the Progress Hybrid, located right where they are directing maximum heat. 

I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas. Can't wait to try it out.


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## BrianK (Aug 27, 2013)

It looks like they're sticking with the new name change too. Now instead of the Union Hybrid they are calling it the Steal Hybrid. I hope they have a really(!) good marketing plan and gimmick to go with the new name. Otherwise it could hurt sales.


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## Highbeam (Aug 27, 2013)

BrianK said:


> It looks like they're sticking with the new name change too. Now instead of the Union Hybrid they are calling it the Steal Hybrid. I hope they have a really(!) good marketing plan and gimmick to go with the new name. Otherwise it could hurt sales.


 
Or "steal" them from another brand.


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## Woody Stover (Aug 27, 2013)

They make the secondary light show sound pretty cool.... 



Highbeam said:


> Does it look like the rear flue exit guys will have to make smoke go downhill to leave the stove? That could be a bummer when opening the loading door.


I don't see the bypass setup, just the lever.
It evidently has an independent air supply to the cat.



Backwoods Savage said:


> you might want to check this link:


I bet the commission cash is really piling up from everyone clicking through on the link in your post!


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 27, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> Does it look like the rear flue exit guys will have to make smoke go downhill to leave the stove? That could be a bummer when opening the loading door.


 
Keep in mind this is just a drawing. It is pretty difficult to make smoke go downhill as  you already know.


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 27, 2013)

BrianK said:


> It looks like they're sticking with the new name change too. Now instead of the Union Hybrid they are calling it the Steal Hybrid. I hope they have a really(!) good marketing plan and gimmick to go with the new name. Otherwise it could hurt sales.


 
Sometimes those marketing plans take some time to work out too. I'm sure much thought has came into play already though. Kind of makes me wish I could....well, never mind...


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 27, 2013)

Woody Stover said:


> They make the secondary light show sound pretty cool....
> 
> I don't see the bypass setup, just the lever.
> It evidently has an independent air supply to the cat.
> ...


 

Well, that would be nice Woody but don't think that is likely to happen any time soon. I'll still have some fun with it from time to time. And you are correct about the air supply.


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## Todd (Aug 28, 2013)

11 hour burn with only 22 lbs of Doug Fir with 84% efficiency in prelim EPA test. Not too shabby!


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

Todd said:


> 11 hour burn with only 22 lbs of Doug Fir with 84% efficiency in prelim EPA test. Not too shabby!


 
And emissions of 0.52 g/hr and efficiency of 84%.

According to a quick review of the numbers here on the EPA website, List of EPA Certified Wood Stoves August 2013, that should make this new stove both the most efficient as well as having one of the lowest emissions ratings in actual EPA testing.

EDIT to ad:

The data on the new stove is coming from the comment below the recent post on Woodstock's blog:



> Woodstock Soapstone Co.August 28, 2013 at 1:33 PM
> Primary and secondary air are linked, and operated with a single control. The PH uses a rotating control; this stove uses a sliding damper. You cannot cut off the secondary air, but secondary activity at low burn settings is minimal (partly because secondary flow is reduced, and partly because firebox temperatures are low).
> 
> Overnight burns in the 8-12 hour range will be very easy to achieve, and on general principle we will probably never advertise anything that exceeds that range.
> ...


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## Flatbedford (Aug 28, 2013)

Todd said:


> 11 hour burn with only 22 lbs of Doug Fir with 84% efficiency in prelim EPA test. Not too shabby!


 

Imagine if you loaded that thing up with some nice dry Black Locust!


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## Huntindog1 (Aug 28, 2013)

I looked up info from a forest service document:

Douglas Fir seasoned 330 days weighed approx 33 pounds per cubic foot.

Oven Dried weighed approx 28 pounds per cubic foot.

I am thinking that wasnt a full load of wood , it is more like 25% full so 11 hours is pretty good.

Theoretical if Douglas Fir can be oven dried to 28 Pounds per cubic foot then the 3.2 cu ft stove can hold 89.6 pounds of Douglas Fir.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RG...t 2.0 cu foot of seasoned douglas fir&f=false


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## begreen (Aug 28, 2013)

Theoretical for sure. I know I have never stuffed 80+# of doug fir in our 3 cu ft stove.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 28, 2013)

So, does that make for something like 24 hour burn times with some Black Locust or another of the high BTU hardwoods?


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## mellow (Aug 28, 2013)

On low it sure sounds like a once a day loader.


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## Huntindog1 (Aug 28, 2013)

begreen said:


> Theoretical for sure. I know I have never stuffed 80+# of doug fir in our 3 cu ft stove.


 

You need to cut your wood square , so there is no gaps. LoL

I may have figured that wrong but if the wood weighs 28 pounds per cubic foot then a 3.2 cu ft stove will hold 3.2x28=89.6

So lets say we loose 25% from gaps then that gets us down to 67.2 pounds in a 3.2 cu ft stove.

Using that number the stove may have  been more like 1/3 full.


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## begreen (Aug 28, 2013)

A steel stove with top or rear exhaust appears to be the key competitive feature. Soapstone lining for extended heat retention is icing on the cake. Make it so that it can sit directly on the hearth (like some Bucks) and some folks are going to be happy to have this stove.


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## charly (Aug 28, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> I am thinking that wasnt a full load of wood , it is more like 25% full so 11 hours is pretty good.


 Are we maybe looking at 36-44 hour burn times with a full box of hardwood? WOW!


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## begreen (Aug 28, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> You need to cut your wood square , so there is no gaps. LoL
> 
> I may have figured that wrong but if the wood weighs 28 pounds per cubic foot then a 3.2 cu ft stove will hold 3.2x28=89.6
> 
> ...


 
That sounds closer to real world.


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## Huntindog1 (Aug 28, 2013)

charly said:


> Are we maybe looking at 36-44 hour burn times with a full box of hardwood? WOW!


 

Well using a more conservative that it was loaded around 33% in that test and add in some losses a 30 hour burn sounds very likely but what if that baby had a full load of Back Woods Savage super dry oak. What do you think Back Woods? 50 hours? jk.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 28, 2013)

Interested in this one. If I had one of these I wouldn't have to bother with all that added insulation and air sealing my house needs. Be cheaper and easier to just throw a few more splits of free wood in.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 28, 2013)

I've got some super dry Black Locust that I'd like to feed to one of those. It was standing dead when I cut and split it nearly 2 1/2 years ago.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> If I had one of these I wouldn't have to bother with all that added insulation and air sealing my house needs. Be cheaper and easier to just throw a few more splits of free wood in.


 
People might laugh but we had this conversation around our dining room table a couple weeks ago. Most of my wood now is free. Insulation, new windows and doors ... ain't. Its easier economically to just scrounge more free wood than try to scrounge up the $$$ to insulate and put in new windows and doors.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 28, 2013)

charly said:


> Are we maybe looking at 36-44 hour burn times with a full box of hardwood? WOW!


Long burn times are probably very important for a lot of folks, but for me, I'm looking forward to interacting with the stove two times a day.  I guess that might be because I'm new at this game, and maybe in a few years I'll be wishing my Progress Hybrid would go 40+ hours on a reload.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> what if that baby had a full load of Back Woods Savage super dry oak. What do you think Back Woods?


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> People might laugh but we had this conversation around our dining room table a couple weeks ago. Most of my wood now is free. Insulation, new windows and doors ... ain't. Its easier economically to just scrounge more free wood that try to scrounge up the $$$ to insulate and put in new windows and doors.


Brian, you make a good point, but new windows and insulation will add to the value of your house, and the day may come when you are physically not able to scrounge for wood.  Just something to think about.


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## teutonicking (Aug 28, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> A bit more on the design of the Union Hybrid stove. For more information you might want to check this link: http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/08/under-hood.html
> 
> 
> View attachment 109605
> ...


 
I'm very impressed with the engineering and specs.  However, I wish that it looked nicer.  I wonder if Woodstock is going to dress it up at all for sales after they are finished testing the prototype.


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## mellow (Aug 28, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I'm very impressed with the engineering and specs. However, I wish that it looked nicer. I wonder if Woodstock is going to dress it up at all for sales after they are finished testing the prototype.


 
Come to the Decathlon in DC in November and find out,  not to far from you.


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## teutonicking (Aug 28, 2013)

mellow said:


> Come to the Decathlon in DC in November and find out, not to far from you.


 
I plan to--I'm really looking forward to it.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

Tenn Dave said:


> Brian, you make a good point, but new windows and insulation will add to the value of your house, and the day may come when you are physically not able to scrounge for wood. Just something to think about.


 

Good advice. We're saving about $100-$120 per month on our budgeted natural gas bill since we installed the Fireview stove. I'm hoping over the next few years to put those savings back into the house in insulation etc. Yes that's a bit backwards but that's life.

When the kids are out of the house I plan on buying logs and having them delivered.


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## Flatbedford (Aug 28, 2013)

We did the same thing. Upgrading the stove was much more cost effective than the other improvements. The savings paid for the stove about a month into the second heating season. No insulation or windows can beat that rate of return, as long as the fuel is free. I know that this is no the most "green" way of doing things, but it is the one that we could afford, and we are still at least using less fossil fuel.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I'm very impressed with the engineering and specs. However, I wish that it looked nicer. I wonder if Woodstock is going to dress it up at all for sales after they are finished testing the prototype.


 
The only reason the women in my life "allowed" me to put in the Fireview in our living room two seasons ago is because it was "pretty." Now that I'm talking about upgrading to this new stove, they want to know what it looks like. Supposedly Woodstock is going to be able to do some customizing on the design of this one. My daughter loves the fleur-de-lis design so I'm hoping Woodstock will be able to do that on the legs for us. Otherwise I'm going to be facing a mutiny this winter.


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## Todd (Aug 28, 2013)

A 24 hour burn or 1 load per day is a very nice thing for the shoulder seasons but don't expect it in the Dead of Winter unless you have a small home. Not many BTU's coming off that stove for that long a burn. I doubt you can take that 1/3 load 11 hour burn and figure a full load will go 33 hours, lots of variables to consider.


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## Reckless (Aug 28, 2013)

I didn't see anywhere... Insert or free standing?? Looks like an interesting stove for sure.


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## PapaDave (Aug 28, 2013)

Todd said:


> 11 hour burn with only 22 lbs of Doug Fir with 84% efficiency in prelim EPA test. Not too shabby!


Wait....WTH? Must be a typo.


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## Woody Stover (Aug 28, 2013)

begreen said:


> A steel stove with top or rear exhaust appears to be the key competitive feature.


They are scarce as hen's teeth, and I'm not sure why....engineering and cost considerations? I don't know what percentage of buyers have hearth installs but it sure increases the options for those that do. And steel is certainly attractive from a maintenance and cost standpoint.  If you have a fireplace, it sure is a clean look to just see the stove and the brick, with the pipe hidden. Lots of SWMBO appeal there, I would think.


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## lumbering on (Aug 28, 2013)

any chance it would be ember protection only?


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## Todd (Aug 28, 2013)

lumbering on said:


> any chance it would be ember protection only?


 
Good question to ask them on their blog


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## charly (Aug 28, 2013)

Is that the new Steal Hybrid Cat?


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## lumbering on (Aug 28, 2013)

Todd said:


> Good question to ask them on their blog


 

I emailed them months ago, they said no at the time
but that was before it became the Steal Hybrid


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## charly (Aug 28, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I'm very impressed with the engineering and specs. However, I wish that it looked nicer. I wonder if Woodstock is going to dress it up at all for sales after they are finished testing the prototype.


I think it will be a good looking stove when finished, as Woodstock already had feed back about people not liking the look of the Fireview yet like the stove principle.. Plus with the water jet your going to be able to make the stove with something you designed or picked out yourself.. Maybe if you have a theme in your home you'll be able to have that water jetted into your stove design.. I can't see them loosing sales because no one likes the look of the stove.. When I saw the door handle it had the very cool machined look, like almost a lightened wing spar for a plane wing.. I'm thinking you'll have the option to design something on the side leg covers... Just have to wait and see...


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## Machria (Aug 28, 2013)

lumbering on said:


> any chance it would be ember protection only?


 
The blog currently says it will have an R factor, but the # won't come out until UL tested.

I'll tell you guys one thing, I love Woodstock as a company and would buy another stove from them in a blink of an eye.  They seem to put alot of thought and testing into their stoves, and certainly treat customers the way we are supposed to be treated.  I just wish we could get more companies to act the way they do.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

This keeps getting more and more interesting:



> Brian Kopp August 28, 2013 at 2:59 PM
> Hi Tom,
> Any word on whether this stove will have electronic controls, or manual? If electronic will they run off current generated from the heat of the stove, or require outside power?
> 
> ...


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 28, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I'm very impressed with the engineering and specs. However, I wish that it looked nicer. I wonder if Woodstock is going to dress it up at all for sales after they are finished testing the prototype.


 
That is the way the Progress went. For sure there will be some things done to make it more eye appealing. There is something else some will get excited about when it comes time for them to announce it. That ought to get some folks wondering.


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## jeff_t (Aug 28, 2013)

This is going to be great. It will be awesome to see a stove that will give Blaze King a run as far as performance. And affordable, to boot.

Personally, I thought the pics of the prototype looked pretty neat, including the color. Then again, I think my stove is quite handsome 

Once again, I don't like the name. I like Union a lot more.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

jeff_t said:


> Once again, I don't like the name. I like Union a lot more.


 
Dittos.

Do they read this forum?


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Dittos.
> 
> Do they read this forum?


You can probably count on that............


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 28, 2013)

Reckless said:


> I didn't see anywhere... Insert or free standing?? Looks like an interesting stove for sure.


 
Free standing.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

Given the numbers posted so far, this stove could end up with a wood stove industry trifecta:
-highest _*EPA*_ BTU output
-lowest _*EPA*_ emissions
-highest _*EPA*_ efficiency

And it might be premature to engage in conjecture but this seems possible too:
-longest burn times?

Plus top or rear vent, cook top, and anticipated retail of $1500-$2000.

This stove could really shake up the industry.


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## begreen (Aug 28, 2013)

Down boys. Remember the Equinox is putting out 120K btus.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 28, 2013)

I bet when you get up in the morning there will be more wood in the stove than was in it before you went to bed.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

begreen said:


> Down boys. Remember the Equinox is putting out 120K btus.


 
There's a reason I put "EPA" in bold and italics. See the numbers here on the EPA website, List of EPA Certified Wood Stoves August 2013.  


EPA numbers are going to be the industry standard in the not too distant future and few stoves have them listed for BTU output.


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## fire_man (Aug 28, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I bet when you get up in the morning there will be more wood in the stove than was in it before you went to bed.


 

Only if it was loaded with Dennis wood.


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## Todd (Aug 28, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I bet when you get up in the morning there will be more wood in the stove than was in it before you went to bed.


I use to scratch my head and think that with my Blaze King every morning. I think they had some kind of pact with the aliens to sneak in and load the stoves while your asleep.


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## lumbering on (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> This keeps getting more and more interesting:


 
The monitoring software sounds awesome.


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## begreen (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> There's a reason I put "EPA" in bold and italics. See the numbers here on the EPA website, List of EPA Certified Wood Stoves August 2013.
> 
> 
> EPA numbers are going to be the industry standard in the not too distant future and few stoves have them listed for BTU output.


 
I don't buy for a minute that the Keystone and Equinox have roughly the same potential heat output, do you? The big rock just takes longer to get going.


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## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

begreen said:


> I don't buy for a minute that the Keystone and Equinox have roughly the same potential heat output, do you? The big rock just takes longer to get going.


 
How is a consumer expected to compare BTU output if stove manufacturers do not use standardized numbers in their advertizing?

I like the fact that there is some outside testing behind the BTU ratings claimed by Woodstock.

Where do the other manufacturers get their numbers?


----------



## webby3650 (Aug 28, 2013)

lumbering on said:


> The monitoring software sounds awesome.


 
Sounds like a headache to me! 
Just think, you can look at the SERVICE light all the way home in your car, then come home a monitor on your stove that says SERVICE. Wow! Sounds great!

Seriously, it's a little overkill don't you think? We all know how efficient they are. I love the new technology as much or more than anyone, but come on. Do we need an LCD screen to remind us? It's just a fire after all.


----------



## lumbering on (Aug 28, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Do we need an LCD screen to remind us? It's just a fire after all.


 
I'm thinking an iPad app.


----------



## webby3650 (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Where do the other manufacturers get their numbers?


Not too many numbers needed when you see a Keystone next to an Equinox! A tiny stove simply will not out perform a huge stove! It's exhaust might be a little cleaner, but that does not make up for all the extra mass.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Not too many numbers needed when you see a Keystone next to an Equinox! A tiny stove simply will not out perform a huge stove! It's exhaust might be a little cleaner, but that does not make up for all the extra mass.


 
I agree completely.

But we still need objective numbers from third party tests. When some stove manufacturers start using EPA BTU numbers to compare their stoves to those of other manufacturers' EPA BTU numbers, hopefully it will force all the manufacturers to do likewise so that consumers can compare apples to apples.

Right now the only way to really compare is by firebox size. That's a good guide but probably not the bottom line. Is there a conversion table for firebox cu ft to estimated BTU output?

Does a hybrid wring more BTUs out of the wood than a CAT or non-CAT?


----------



## Tenn Dave (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> How is a consumer expected to compare BTU output if stove manufacturers do not use standardized numbers in their advertizing?
> 
> I like the fact that there is some outside testing behind the BTU ratings claimed by Woodstock.
> 
> Where do the other manufacturers get their numbers?


I think you're right on the money Brian. It's EPA versus a hunch. I'll bet on EPA everytime.


----------



## begreen (Aug 28, 2013)

All stoves go through several tests for emissions, efficiency, max temp clearances, etc.. Most marketing is going to cherry pick the numbers that say the best about the stove. BK, publishes understated numbers but you have to know that if the throttle is opened up on a 4.2 cu ft King it is going to put out some serious heat. I find their specs more meaningful than most stoves.


*KING*

*(Extra large catalytic wood stove)*

Heats 1,500 – 3,000 Square Feet
40 Hour Low Burn Times
Thermostatically Controlled
4.32 Cubic Foot Firebox
Max Heat Input 703,390 BTUs
88% LHV Efficiency (82% HHV)
51,582 BTU's/h constant output for 12 hours
Up to 23" Log Length
EPA Emissions 1.76 gr/hour


----------



## lumbering on (Aug 28, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Sounds like a headache to me!


 
As cool as it would be to be able to geek out on graphs and data, you have a point about simplicity.

Don't need another appliance to maintain. Just a fire in a box.

Still sounds awesome, though.


----------



## webby3650 (Aug 28, 2013)

begreen said:


> All stoves go through several tests for emissions, efficiency, max temp clearances, etc.. Most marketing is going to cherry pick the numbers that say the best about the stove. BK, publishes understated numbers but you have to know that if the throttle is opened up on a 4.2 cu ft King it is going to put out some serious heat. I find their specs more meaningful than most stoves.
> 
> 
> *KING*
> ...


 
I am so glad that BK started publishing the high output, but then also publishes a more reasonable constant BTU ratings over an extended time.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> I am so glad that BK started publishing the high output, but then also publishes a more reasonable constant BTU ratings over an extended time.


 
Consumers need all the manufacturers to publish both numbers. Apples to apples.


----------



## Tenn Dave (Aug 28, 2013)

Brian, I am very excited for you for getting the opportunity to test the new Woodstock stove.  It sure does look like it is going to be exceptional.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

Tenn Dave said:


> Brian, I am very excited for you for getting the opportunity to test the new Woodstock stove. It sure does look like it is going to be exceptional.


 
Thanks Dave.

Yes, I'm on the list for Beta testers so that probably means 1) I'm really excited about this stove and 2) I'm not being very objective on these threads about it.


----------



## Tenn Dave (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Thanks Dave.
> 
> Yes, I'm on the list for Beta testers so that probably means 1) I'm really excited about this stove and 2) I'm not being very objective on these threads about it.


We are just having fun now Brian.  I'm sure you will be very objective when the testing starts.  After all is said and done, you and me and all the other members on this board just want what's best for the industry.


----------



## charly (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Dittos.
> 
> Do they read this forum?


Yes they do....


----------



## webby3650 (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Thanks Dave.
> 
> Yes, I'm on the list for Beta testers so that probably means 1) I'm really excited about this stove and 2) I'm not being very objective on these threads about it.


 
Do you have, or have you had any other EPA stoves to compare it to?


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Do you have, or have you had any other EPA stoves to compare it to?


 
I've used a Woodstock Fireview 205 for the last two seasons.


----------



## webby3650 (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> I've used a Woodstock Fireview 205 for the last two seasons.


 
Cool, any others in the past?


----------



## charly (Aug 28, 2013)

Brian, boy are you going to have fun and be heating your house at the same time!  I can feel your excitement!  How nice your going to be working so close with Woodstock... They are some very fun people!  Never met such people who seem to be always happy... they must just love their stoves as much as we do


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Cool, any others in the past?


 
We heated our parents' home with a Buderus wood boiler for years, but that probably doesn't count. It was similar to this one:





The Woodstock Fireview is my first woodstove. I also have a Baker's Choice wood cook stove that has not been installed yet. Given the cook top and higher BTUs on the new Union/Steal Hybrid I might not even need it.


----------



## Machria (Aug 28, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I bet when you get up in the morning there will be more wood in the stove than was in it before you went to bed.



LOL!   



webby3650 said:


> I am so glad that BK started publishing the high output, but then also publishes a more reasonable constant BTU ratings over an extended time.



I too like the bk listing of both high output vs time AND low output vs time.  Wish they would all do that.



webby3650 said:


> Not too many numbers needed when you see a Keystone next to an Equinox! A tiny stove simply will not out perform a huge stove! It's exhaust might be a little cleaner, but that does not make up for all the extra mass.




That seems to be a constant rant on this site.  I disagree with it big time.  Size does NOT mean as much as you guys think.  Design has a lot more to do with it.  All the fuel/heat on that big unit can very easily go right up the chimney instead of heat the room.   I'm not saying that is the case in this particular comparison, I don't know the stoves.  But I do dislike that constant rave of size is the big difference, it's not.


----------



## webby3650 (Aug 28, 2013)

Machria said:


> That seems to be a constant rant on this site. I disagree with it big time. Size does NOT mean as much as you guys think. Design has a lot more to do with it. All the fuel/heat on that big unit can very easily go right up the chimney instead of heat the room. I'm not saying that is the case in this particular comparison, I don't know the stoves. But I do dislike that constant rave of size is the big difference, it's not.


Thats true with old smoke dragon stoves compared to new EPA stoves. A 2 cubic foot EPA stove can likely keep up with a house that needed a 3.5 cubic foot non-EPA stove. But this would not be the case with new stoves that have similar combustion systems. The 3.5' stove would blow the doors off of the 2' stove. It's the truth.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

Machria said:


> That seems to be a constant rant on this site. I disagree with it big time. Size does NOT mean as much as you guys think. Design has a lot more to do with it. All the fuel/heat on that big unit can very easily go right up the chimney instead of heat the room.
> 
> ...But I do dislike that constant rave of size is the big difference, it's not.


 
Could a smoke dragon of the 1970s with a 3.0cu ft firebox put out the same BTUs *using the same amount of wood* as a 3.0cu ft firebox EPA stove?

Does an early EPA stove with the same size firebox as today's EPA stoves put out the same BTUs* using the same amount of wood*?

Does a new hybrid stove with a smaller firebox but wringing out most of the conceptually available BTUs have a chance of putting out more BTUs than a less efficient EPA stove with a larger firebox* using the same amount of wood*?

I don't have any idea on the latter questions but independent objective testing results would certainly be an improvement in attempting to find the answers. Even if the EPA tests are far from perfect, at least its a starting point, and stove manufacturers could list the EPA stats and their own stats and if necessary explain why their own stats are more realistic.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> The 3.5' stove would blow the doors off of the 2' stove. It's the truth.


 
But how do we compare the 3.5 non CAT or CAT EPA stoves to these new 2.8 and 3.2 hybrid EPA stoves?


----------



## BrotherBart (Aug 28, 2013)

I just wanna know when the EPA started dictating btu output or even thermal efficiency testing. Requires a calorific room and ain't cheap. The number ranges in the EPA stove list on their site is for "comparable" stoves and is over twenty years old.

The only thing the EPA gives a tinker's damn about is what particulates come out of the stack.


----------



## webby3650 (Aug 28, 2013)

BrianK said:


> But how do we compare the 3.5 non CAT or CAT EPA stoves to these new 2.8 and 3.2 hybrid EPA stoves?


 
We just rely on the EPA to tell us that it's better!


----------



## DevilsBrew (Aug 28, 2013)

begreen said:


> Is this a threat of yet another Union plug?


 
I kinda like these updates.  I learn a lot from them.


----------



## fox9988 (Aug 28, 2013)

If the stove relies on electronics to operate, I'm not interested.

Cubic footage of a stove tells you how many btu it will hold. Burn times tell you how slow or fast it will release the btu's. If manufactures are going to list "btu" ratings, tell us how fast (min burn time) the stove will incinerate a load of wood. Max btu ratings are meaningless to most of us (how often do you burn at wide open throttle?). At my house, min btu is much more important than max btu. Tube vs Cat...do you burn at 3/4 throttle or at 1/4? The total output (btu's in the house at the same burn rate) of any two epa stoves of the same size, ran at similar btu outputs, are probably similar. Running any stove at wide open throttle, probably waists btu's up the stack. Manufacturers play the epa numbers, it's the only "standardized" playing field- How may people buy a Keystone expecting it to out heat an Equinox? How many buy a BK expecting 40 hr burns Nov-March? The same people that do exhaust work and tomatoes with the same Ginsu knife.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 28, 2013)

fox9988 said:


> If the stove relies on electronics to operate, I'm not interested.


 
The owner of Woodstock addressed this in a comment under the most recent blog post. See the area I bolded below:



> Woodstock Soapstone Co. August 28, 2013 at 4:58 PM
> *All of the controls on this stove are manual – nothing electronic, and no power required*. At one point we thought that we would need at least a small amount of power to achieve the emissions/efficiency profile we were after, but we’re there without adding any power.
> 
> Having said that, we are working on a “proof of concept” module that does need power. It doesn’t control the stove, but it gives real-time information on the performance of the stove (burn rate, BTU output, efficiency, emissions, time remaining to reload, effects of moisture content, etc.) We think/hope it will be ready to exhibit in November, but again it does not control the stove (though we would hope it might help to control the operator!). The device needs some power for the O2 sensor heater, an amplifier for strain gages, and a small pump.
> ...


----------



## Tenn Dave (Aug 29, 2013)

For all of us excited about this new stove, don't let the naysayers dampen your enthusiasm.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Aug 29, 2013)

I dont think you can compare stoves that are of different firebox size. The Equinox is a 4.0 cu ft box.
So I would say this Steal Hybrid will be the highest BTU's to for its 3.2 cu ft fire box size.
Or we can just divide the max btu by the cubic feet of the fire box to get a more level playing field.

Max Btu's are great to measure but no one operates their stove at wide open all the time.

So the standard should be to have a Btu rating for like a 12 hour burn. Like Blaze King did.

I would say the hybrid stove is getting better numbers over just a Cat or just a Secondary Air Stove for maybe several reasons.
The fire is an always changing cycle how the stove deals with the changes in firebox is key. I think a hybrid stove with both technologies of a cat and a secondary air manifold is that with both technologies in one fire box the stove is equipped to burn more efficiently over a wider range of changes in burn cycle. Its like a recipe a little of this a little of that, the mix is important to get conditions just right for the most efficient burn.

At higher burn rates in the cycle having the two technologies most likely allows a cleaner burn at that point as the smoke is first getting cleaned up with a secondary air ignition of the smoke gases. But there is always a small amount of stuff that still gets by and thats where the cat comes in a for a second pass at cleaning up the exhaust to a higher level.

At lower Burn rates the secondary air manifold may not be firing off but the preheated secondary manifold air gets mixed with the smoke gases better this way like when you use a blender to mix your recipe  better well we are mixing in air with the smoke to get better conditions so when it travels thru the cat things burn much more efficiently. The secondary air manifold is a large area stretching across the full width of the stove and has alot of area with holes drilled to let the preheated air disperse out in many different locations for a good mix. Just like in tube stoves some have more tubes to get a better mix and in European stoves they will create like a vortex circular motion to get a better mixing of the air and smoke.

So the hybrid technology I think is able to get better numbers and I think time will prove that out as we have seen with these hybrid type stoves.


----------



## charly (Aug 29, 2013)

All I can say Brian,, in a few months you can tell everyone how your new stove is above your expectations and a great heater ..  I'm thinking Woodstock will shine with this stove, especially how it's priced and with top and rear chimney pipe options.. Plus don't forget,,, a nice built in cook top... Very smart!  I will say when I saw that stove in person,, she's a big girl!


----------



## teutonicking (Aug 29, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I bet when you get up in the morning there will be more wood in the stove than was in it before you went to bed.


 
A fast breeder stove.


----------



## charly (Aug 29, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> A fast breeder stove.


The Rabbit Hybrid


----------



## oldspark (Aug 29, 2013)

webby3650 said:


> Thats true with old smoke dragon stoves compared to new EPA stoves. A 2 cubic foot EPA stove can likely keep up with a house that needed a 3.5 cubic foot non-EPA stove. But this would not be the case with new stoves that have similar combustion systems. The 3.5' stove would blow the doors off of the 2' stove. It's the truth.


 No-I get into trouble when I post about this stuff so that is all I am going to say, no need to get the thread closed.


----------



## charly (Aug 29, 2013)

I'm wondering if Woodstock is going to cover the cook top area with soapstone like they did with the Progress.. I think that would break up the metal stove look in a nice way... I'm also thinking that they could etch a nice design into the door frame with their new water jet .. Who knows what they're planning...I'm hoping they blow us out of the water on the final product.. I think that speaks Woodstock...


----------



## Huntindog1 (Aug 29, 2013)

I know one given they arent going to call it The Rabbit Hybrid.

I think they are using the Steal Hybrid to high light a new line of steel stoves. Nice Idea.

How about using the name Environator after the movie Terminator and Ralph Nader and the good crop of tomaters I got this year. Ok I'm Joking!

How about the Union Steal Hybrid? Then they can come out with a double soap stone version soap stoned lined and soap stone Panels added to the outside to increase the thermal mass of the stove, They could call it the Union Stone Hybrid.

The old Kent stoves had different soap stone panels you could add to the sides for a decorative look. You could order different colors if you changed your room decor.


----------



## oldspark (Aug 29, 2013)

How about "this SOB is hot"


----------



## charly (Aug 29, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> I know one given they arent going to call it The Rabbit Hybrid


Wasn't serious about that


----------



## teutonicking (Aug 29, 2013)

How about Advanced Hybrid?


----------



## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

steel
stēl/
_noun_
noun: *steel*; plural noun: *steels*

*1*.​a hard, strong, gray or bluish-gray alloy of iron with carbon and usually other elements, used extensively as a structural and fabricating material.
used as a symbol or embodiment of strength and firmness.
"nerves of steel"
a rod of roughened steel on which knives are sharpened.

_verb_
verb: *steel*; 3rd person present: *steels*; past tense: *steeled*; past participle: *steeled*; gerund or present participle: *steeling*
*1*.​mentally prepare (oneself) to do or face something difficult.
"I speak quickly, *steeling myself for* a mean reply"
synonyms: brace oneself, nerve oneself, summon (up) one's courage, screw up one's courage, gear oneself up, prepare oneself, get in the right frame of mind;More

steal
stēl/
_verb_
verb: *steal*; 3rd person present: *steals*; past tense: *stole*; gerund or present participle: *stealing*; past participle: *stolen*

*1*.​take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
"thieves stole her bicycle"
 
ste·le  (st
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







l
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, st
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




l)
_n._
*1. * also *ste·la* (st
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







l
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) _pl._ *steles* also *ste·lae* (-l
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) An upright stone or slab with an inscribed or sculptured surface, used as a monument or as a commemorative tablet in the face of a building.
*2. * *stele* (st
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




l, st
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







l
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) The central core of tissue in the stem or root of a vascular plant, consisting of the xylem and phloem together with supporting tissues.


----------



## Machria (Aug 29, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Could a smoke dragon of the 1970s with a 3.0cu ft firebox put out the same BTUs *using the same amount of wood* as a 3.0cu ft firebox EPA stove?
> 
> Does an early EPA stove with the same size firebox as today's EPA stoves put out the same BTUs* using the same amount of wood*?
> 
> ...


 
EXACTLY! And I don't understand why companies don't simply:
1. List the low and high burn rates per there own tests (BTU output VS time at high burn, and at low burn), like BK does on their website.
2. List EPA test #'s, along with their own explanation of why they might differ greatly from their own tests and/or real world results, and what they might mean.
3. List how many BUT's go up the stack. This should be easy enough to measure.




BrotherBart said:


> I just wanna know when the EPA started dictating btu output or even thermal efficiency testing. Requires a calorific room and ain't cheap. The number ranges in the EPA stove list on their site is for "comparable" stoves and is over twenty years old.
> 
> The only thing the EPA gives a tinker's damn about is what particulates come out of the stack.


 
I've been thinking about this for some time now (months). I'm not 100% sure a "calorific room" would be required. Why not just measure the BTU's going up the stack? If you know how many BTU's are in the firebox (weight and type of wood...), and you know how many BTU's went up the chimney, then you know what is left which went into the room. That may be what they are doing now.... ? But your right and it's important to repeat, what the EPA is most interested in really is the emmisions #'s. But do keep in mind, the emmisions #'s they are interested in do need to be related to the BTU output to some extent, otherwise there ratings would be comparing the output of a 18 wheeler truck exhaust hauliing 100,000 lbs of freight, to a 200 lb motor cylcle exhaust. Size/output must be figured into the equation.



*"Proof of Concept" module!*
I LOVE this idea! At least the part where they will install weight cells on the base of the stove so you can determine the amount of fuel put into the stove, and therefore the amount of remaining fuel at any time. GREAT idea!


----------



## BrotherBart (Aug 29, 2013)

Machria said:


> the emmisions #'s they are interested in do need to be related to the BTU output to some extent, otherwise there ratings would be comparing the output of a 18 wheeler truck exhaust hauliing 100,000 lbs of freight, to a 200 lb motor cylcle exhaust. Size/output must be figured into the equation.


 
That is why they use a standardized fuel load. Which limits the comparability of the results stove to stove efficiency wise. A trade off they made in the eighties to hold to their objective.

Tom discusses this at length.

http://chimneysweeponline.com/hobtucmp.htm


----------



## oldspark (Aug 29, 2013)

One things for sure you dont want to base your stove purchase off of the EPA numbers.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

Machria said:


> Why not just measure the BTU's going up the stack? If you know how many BTU's are in the firebox (weight and type of wood...), and you know how many BTU's went up the chimney, then you know what is left which went into the room. That may be what they are doing now.... ? But your right and it's important to repeat, what the EPA is most interested in really is the emmisions #'s. But do keep in mind, the emmisions #'s they are interested in do need to be related to the BTU output to some extent, otherwise there ratings would be comparing the output of a 18 wheeler truck exhaust hauliing 100,000 lbs of freight, to a 200 lb motor cylcle exhaust. Size/output must be figured into the equation.


 
The new firebox designs in conjunction with hybrid technology are going to wring more available heat out of the same amount of wood BTUs. To say the only indicator of BTU output is the size of the firebox is to deny that some stoves send more BTUs up the chimney than others. Everyone here knows that old fashioned open fireplaces are so inefficient as to actually cool off some houses, because so much of the heat goes up the chimney.

A masonry stove or a rocket mass heater extracts far more of the available heat from the wood than a wood stove, by making the smoke path such that the heat is absorbed by the thermal mass to be radiated off later. A wood stove extracts far more of the available heat from the wood than an old open fireplace because of convection and radiation.

These new hybrid stoves are burning higher percentages of particulates. Those particulates, unburned, equal BTUs and thus lost heat up the chimney, in older designs. The hi tech firebox design and smoke path in the new hybrids extract more heat from the combustion, making it available to heat the house. Older stoves with big fireboxes that simply send the BTUs up the chimney will not be able to compete with these new stoves that burn more of the particulates and extract more of the heat from wood combustion.

Bottom line, its no longer the case that you can simply compare firebox size to arrive at any definite conclusion about what size stove to buy. A modern hybrid with properly designed firebox to extract more heat and burn more particulates eventually will go toe to toe with older designs with larger fireboxes. We may not be there yet, but new EPA regs will eventually force that evolution on the industry.


----------



## oldspark (Aug 29, 2013)

Fire box size is still a good baseline for your stove needs, there are only so many btus in a piece of wood so a larger firewbox with give you the extended burn times needed for colder climates. Plus where you live and size of house, damn near bought too small of stove based on the talk of how much heat the news stove put out.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

oldspark said:


> Fire box size is still a good baseline for your stove needs, there are only so many btus in a piece of wood so a larger firewbox with give you the extended burn times needed for colder climates.


 
Definitely.


----------



## WoodPorn (Aug 29, 2013)

BrianK said:


> According to their website, with its 2.8 cu ft firebox,
> 
> 
> 
> So if the Union Hybrid firebox is even bigger, wonder how many BTUs it will crank out compared to the Progress? And I assume burn times will be as good as or better than the Progress too.


According to the diagram (cartoon) it is a 3.2 cu ft

Sorry ETA Backwoods already got it!


----------



## Huntindog1 (Aug 29, 2013)

I think the main advantage is the extended burn time getting the heat over a longer period of time. The Grams of particulates emissions is good for the atmosphere. The efficiency number is one thing some one should find out what kind of measurement that is. As in, is heat getting out in the room measurement or stack efficiency of btu's thats not getting wasted up the flue.

Real world I dont think the difference between 82% efficiency and an 84% efficiency is going to be all that noticeable. As I know one new designed secondary tube stove that came in at 81% efficiency. And some Cat stoves are at 82%. So clean burn over a longer period is the main advantage your paying money for here.

I wish someone would explain why dropping to .52 grams emissions doesnt increase efficiency to a higher level. As the drop seems larger than the rise in my opinion. We are assuming incinerating more of the particulates so they are not getting up the stack , equates to more heat, so if we assume that getting more heat means less particulates then there must be an increase in heat loss up the stack as we get more heat out of the wood thus that is pushing down the efficiency number from going higher. Like I said earlier we first must know what kind of measurement is being used for the efficiency number. Then it might make more sense.

As in its the difference in temperature that equates to the speed of the transfer of heat. So a more efficient hotter firebox might loose a little more heat up the stack and keep the efficiency number to 84% but 84% is really good.


----------



## teutonicking (Aug 29, 2013)

I also like the name Woodstock Woodsaver Hybrid.


----------



## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I also like the name Woodstock Woodsaver Hybrid.


 
I like that!


----------



## WoodPorn (Aug 29, 2013)

Woodstock Woodmiser...


----------



## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> Real world I dont think the difference between 82% efficiency and an 84% efficiency is going to be all that noticeable. As I know one new designed secondary tube stove that came in at 81% efficiency. And some Cat stoves are at 82%. So clean burn over a longer period is the main advantage your paying money for here.
> 
> I wish someone would explain why dropping to .52 grams emissions doesnt increase efficiency to a higher level. As the drop seems larger than the rise in my opinion. We are assuming incinerating more of the particulates so they are not getting up the stack , equates to more heat, so if we assume that getting more heat means less particulates then there must be an increase in heat loss up the stack


 
Here's a pretty good visual comparison between a CAT stove and a hybrid stove, both from Woodstock. Since I've never had a non-CAT stove, maybe the flames generated by the Progress are typical for secondaries?



I do get rolling flames at the top of my Fireview from a good CAT burn, but nothing compared to what is seen on this Progress.


----------



## Machria (Aug 29, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I also like the name Woodstock Woodsaver Hybrid.


 
That's awesome!    OR, make it the   *Woodstock Hybrid Woodsaver*

Woodstock, USE THIS NAME!   




Huntindog1 said:


> Real world I dont think the difference between 82% efficiency and an 84% efficiency is going to be all that noticeable.


 
Real world, that is a 2% difference!   I'm good with math!


----------



## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

Max Hybrid?


----------



## Reckless (Aug 29, 2013)

Beta test info http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/08/more-info-on-beta-testing.html
Provided my info hopefully they choose me


----------



## BrotherBart (Aug 29, 2013)

Swiss Army Stove


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Aug 29, 2013)

I was hoping this thread could get back to the original intention. I'm surprised the mods haven't close the thread and if the bickering about different type stoves doesn't stop, I hope they do close it. If you want to debate about different stoves and their outputs, please feel free to start your own thread.

Thank You.


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## Todd (Aug 29, 2013)

I wonder how much of this new technology in these new Woodstock stoves will eventually be incorporated into the older Woodstock stoves? Maybe some new mods are in order?


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## Backwoods Savage (Aug 29, 2013)

I honestly do not think it will be that much. More like a case of re-designing the stoves, like the Fireview and Keystone, etc to incorporate the technology.


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## Todd (Aug 29, 2013)

I don't think it would be that hard to tweak the air controls or have some kind of monitoring software in the old stoves, but yeah, turning them into a hybrid may be a little more involved.


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## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

Ok, purely conjecture here on my part, but reading between the lines and judging by the whimsical illustration on their blog,






I am assuming (hoping?) that this stove, in addition to the cook top, is also going to have retractable warming shelves built into the cook top lid, with handles to lift the cover, pull out the warming shelves and hang things on?


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## charly (Aug 29, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Ok, purely conjecture here on my part, but reading between the lines and judging by the whimsical illustration on their blog,
> 
> 
> I am assuming (hoping?) that this stove, in addition to the cook top, is also going to have retractable warming shelves built into the cook top lid, with handles to lift the cover, pull out the warming shelves and hang things on.


Like I always felt about Woodstock,,, they love to surprise everyone for the better...they're happy folks and they like to pass that on..Almost like the have a deep sense of humor with the folks who love their stoves... Just a fun company to be around and involved with,,, how cool is that? Matter of fact, who else has that following or open communication with the general public or the people who own their stoves... So nice to have such a company like this in this day and age... I hope all goes well with their new stove.. and.... what other company would let the general public have hands on, a free new stove for testing? Can't get any closer to your customers then that! Guess I'm just excited to see that their new stove is a big success.. cause they are some really good folks! If you own one of their stoves you know what I'm talking about.. OK, I'll shut up now


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## Machria (Aug 29, 2013)

Not sure I want things left hanging from my stove!


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## charly (Aug 29, 2013)

Machria said:


> Not sure I want things left hanging from my stove!


Maybe those will be nice warming shelves for soup, etc.. That would be nice...


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## BrianK (Aug 29, 2013)

Machria said:


> Not sure I want things left hanging from my stove!



I have to admit, the thought of drying venison jerky there did cross my mind.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 29, 2013)

I am thinking clearance to combustibles.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 29, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> I am thinking clearance to combustibles.


That would have to be given very serious consideration.  Can't be too careful.


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## Machria (Aug 29, 2013)

BrianK said:


> I have to admit, the thought of drying venison jerky there did cross my mind.



WOW!   Your on to something there, jerky on the stove!  My jerky recipe calls for baking for 12 hours at low temps.  I bet if I put a crock pot on top of my PH soapstone, it will stay cool enough to slow "cook" jerky.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 29, 2013)

As to the friendliness of manufacturers I find the same from Mike from ESW here and his folks on the phone and did when I went to visit the plant. They just don't do a yearly party.

Something both companies have in spades is direct connection to their customers. Not through a dealer that has to worry about BBQ's and hot tubs instead of talking to you about your stove. Or not interested because warranty doesn't pay'em enough. They just get it done.


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## Huntindog1 (Aug 29, 2013)

It sure looks like the folks at Wood Stock have thought of alot of little things that add value to the product. Plus they got the important design aspects covered also.

It looks to be a great stove maybe one of the best of all time. I like the idea its still all mechanical control.

Plus its amazing how tuned in they are with their customer base.

Brother Bart is right from all that I have read there are other great stove companies out there also.

I think its great that they put on the Wood Stove Decathlon to spark innovation. Thanks John Ackerly

Just think, stoves like this will challenge other companies to raise their game to a new level also, competition is always good.

Does the Government really need to come out with new standards? Oh well thats another topic.

Lastly to BackWoods Savage, I hope my discussion of the technology wasnt taken as bickering as it was only intended delve into the technology.
There are limitations to where the technology can take us, its not a slam on any designer or company. As all companies will be hitting the
technology stretch limit soon. You can only do so much.


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## charly (Aug 30, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> It sure looks like the folks at Wood Stock have thought of alot of little things that add value to the product. Plus they got the important design aspects covered also.
> 
> It looks to be a great stove maybe one of the best of all time. I like the idea its still all mechanical control.
> 
> ...


One thing I liked talking with Woodstock is that their builds are always way ahead of the up coming clean air standards so your getting a nice clean burning stove,,, if your burn good seasoned wood and correctly... To me they're trying to give you the best of the best...


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2013)

All modern EPA stoves are clean burning. The difference between 1 gm/hr and 3 gms/hr. is tiny.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> All modern EPA stoves are clean burning. The difference between 1 gm/hr and 3 gms/hr. is tiny.


I believe future Woodstock stoves will be aiming for the lower end of that spread, or even better.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2013)

I think that can become a matter of diminishing returns other than marketing bragging rights, like what happened when the CapeCod came out. IMO, their efforts would be more wisely spent continuing to improve efficiency and visual design.


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## BrianK (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> I think that can become a matter of diminishing returns other than marketing bragging rights, like what happened when the CapeCod came out. IMO, their efforts would be more wisely spent continuing to improve efficiency and visual design.


 
Why not do both?


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> I think that can become a matter of diminishing returns other than marketing bragging rights, like what happened when the CapeCod came out. IMO, their efforts would be more wisely spent continuing to improve efficiency and visual design.


You make some practical points - but I do love my clean air. I guess it's a personal thing.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2013)

Your pet's dandruff puts more particulate in the air then these clean burners.


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## BrianK (Aug 30, 2013)

Tenn Dave said:


> You make some practical points - but I do love my clean air. I guess it's a personal thing.


 
My flue is about 25 ft from my neighbor's house. They would prefer my stove burn as clean as possible too.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> Your pet's dandruff puts more particulate in the air then these clean burners.


DON'T YOU BE BADMOUTHING MY PETS


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

BrianK said:


> My flue is about 25 ft from my neighbor's house. They would prefer my stove burn as clean as possible too.


Being considerate goes a long way for having good neigbor relations, and it's also good for protecting the future of the industry.  A Win-Win.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2013)

BrianK said:


> My flue is about 25 ft from my neighbor's house. They would prefer my stove burn as clean as possible too.


 
That is assuming they would note the slightest difference between 1.16 and 1.06 gms. The answer is no. If this is a serious concern, burn gas.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> That is assuming they would note the slightest difference between 1.16 and 1.06 gms. The answer is no. If this is a serious concern, burn gas.


It never hurts to strive for perfection - and that is all Woodstock is doing.  And I for one appreciate that.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2013)

True, they made the new stove a steel box, getting closer.


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## BrianK (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> That is assuming they would note the slightest difference between 1.16 and 1.06 gms. The answer is no. If this is a serious concern, burn gas.


 
If I had not been able to find a clean burning stove like my Fireview on the secondary market at a decent price, I would not have installed one. I value my neighbors' friendships that much. I wanted to be able to say to them, "This is one of the cleanest burning stoves on the market," and not have to worry about the dirt and smoke. I certainly would not have installed a dragon in this neighborhood, and I specifically sought out one of the cleanest burning CAT stoves.

They might not notice the difference, but its peace of mind for me.


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> True, they made the new stove a steel box, getting closer.


Now. Now.  Cheap shots will win you no new friends


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

BrianK said:


> If I had not been able to find a clean burning stove like my Fireview on the secondary market at a decent price, I would not have installed one. I value my neighbors' friendships that much. I wanted to be able to say to them, "This is one of the cleanest burning stoves on the market," and not have to worry about the dirt and smoke. I certainly would not have installed a dragon in this neighborhood, and I specifically sought out one of the cleanest burning CAT stoves.
> 
> They might not notice the difference, but its peace of mind for me.


You're a good neighbor Brian.  The kind I would appreciate having. And that kind of thinking ends up helping all us woodburners in the public relations arena.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2013)

Tenn Dave said:


> Now. Now. Cheap shots will win you no new friends


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

begreen said:


>


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## charly (Aug 30, 2013)

Brian,
Wait until your neighbor thinks your not even burning your stove ! That says it all about Woodstocks clean burning stoves


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## alforit (Aug 30, 2013)

Pleeeease......the sweetness is Givin me a toothache.......heh heh


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## Tenn Dave (Aug 30, 2013)

alforit said:


> Pleeeease......the sweetness is Givin me a toothache.......heh heh


With all the forest fires burning out west, I guess stove emissions really are irrelevant for you guys............


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## Woody Stover (Aug 30, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> I was hoping this thread could get back to the original intention. I'm surprised the mods haven't close the thread and if the bickering about different type stoves doesn't stop, I hope they do close it. If you want to debate about different stoves and their outputs, please feel free to start your own thread.
> 
> Thank You.


Traffic is still way down, and we're not burning yet. If we don't highjack threads and run amok, what are we supposed to be doing? Oh, yeah, we could be getting more wood.... 
Besides, if not for that, this latest drum-beater would be on page 4 by now. 

Hey, there's a new entry in the blog! Dennis, can you keep us updated when there are developments like this? 
Can't smoke-bomb the living room; Door won't open much unless the bypass is open.


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## Machria (Aug 30, 2013)

Me thinks they should focus on controlled burn times (I.e. I decide how long the burn goes by adjusting the stove, not the stove and wood!), efficiency (making sure we get all the heat from the wood, not my neighborhood), and keeping the glass clean / having a "cool" view of a "fire".


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## WoodPorn (Sep 3, 2013)

I'd sent Lorin @ Woodstock an email last Thurs. and heard back within a few hours, I've not been chosen, but am on a list for consideration. Hopefully I'll be burning one of those this winter, I'd love to see what it can do against my 300i


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## BrianK (Sep 4, 2013)

Very cool:



> Posted by Woodstock Soapstone Co.  at 9/04/2013 11:59:00 AM
> 
> 
> * Under the Hood 3: Andirons- movable, removable, customizable *
> ...


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## Machria (Sep 4, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Very cool:



That's really nice.  I wish the PH andirons were removable for cleaning the glass.  That is the one thing I hate on the PH, wiping the glass down is a pita since the andirons are so close to the glass and not removable.  It's hard to clean in front of them.


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## Flatbedford (Sep 4, 2013)

Same with Fireview. Good thing the glass stays clean for a while.


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## Machria (Sep 4, 2013)

Anyone else notice the Masonry heater they made?   WOW!
http://blog.woodstove.com/search/label/Masonry Heater


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## BrianK (Sep 4, 2013)

Machria said:


> That's really nice.  I wish the andirons were removable for cleaning the glass.  That is the one thing I hate on the PH, wiping the glass down is a pita since the andirons are so close to the glass and not removable.  It's hard to clean in front of them.



According to the blog entry andirons stay put and can fold forward when the door is opened so they are not in the way of cleaning the glass. They can also be removed and replaced. 


> The andirons are easily removable and/or replaceable.  Just lift the andiron/plate assembly, push it into the 30 degree removal slot, and take it out.


Maybe Woodstock will offer extra themed or seasonal replacement andirons? I just put in a request for a fleur de lis andirons rendering (my daughter's favorite design.)


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 4, 2013)

It's getting good now! My only concern with the andirons is that no doubt folks will end up setting wood on it while stocking up the stove. So they will have to be strong! Love the designs though and probably will be sending them some more examples.


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## Oldhippie (Sep 4, 2013)

BrianK said:


> Lorin at Woodstock just said the firebox on this stove is actually larger than the one on the Progress (and they are considering a cook top for this stove too, similar to the Progress). And apparently they have a new water jet cutter (?) for manufacturing the new stove, according to Penny, who gave us the tour when we visited August 8th. So they do seem to be gearing up to ramp up in house production capacity.



Here is a picture of the waterjet cutter so they can manufacture many of the metal parts in house. (my friend Mark in pic)


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## BrianK (Sep 4, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> It's getting good now! My only concern with the andirons is that no doubt folks will end up setting wood on it while stocking up the stove. So they will have to be strong! Love the designs though and probably will be sending them some more examples.



The blog post says 





> Our andirons are custom cut from 1/2” plate steel



That sounds fairly strong. I'd be more concerned with burning myself on them while lowering them to load the stove and then putting them back in position to close the door. It doesn't look like it would be easy to load the stove without lowering the andirons and moving them every time the stove needs loaded could be ... Interesting.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 4, 2013)

Steel firebox, steel andirons, they are getting close to a steel stove. What God intended all of those trees to be burned in.


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## Machria (Sep 4, 2013)

BrianK said:


> According to the blog entry andirons stay put and can fold forward when the door is opened so they are not in the way of cleaning the glass. They can also be removed and replaced.



Yes.  I was referring to the Progress andirons.  Wish they were removable/foldable to clean in front of them.


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## BrianK (Sep 4, 2013)

Machria said:


> Yes.  I was referring to the Progress andirons.  Wish they were removable/foldable to clean in front of them.



D'oh!  Ok, thanks.


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## Machria (Sep 4, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Steel firebox, steel andirons, they are getting close to a steel stove. What God intended all of those trees to be burned in.



NO!  Wood is meant to be burned in a steel firebox, surrounded inside and out by Soapstone!  Preferable with a secondary burn plate and a CAT in the exhaust path.  God was very specific about this.


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## begreen (Sep 4, 2013)

Man, I thought Macaholics were bad.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 4, 2013)

Machria said:


> NO!  Wood is meant to be burned in a steel firebox, surrounded inside and out by Soapstone!  Preferable with a secondary burn plate and a CAT in the exhaust path.  God was very specific about this.



I just talked to him. He said he made those rocks for counter tops. And he is perplexed that people burn trees in it. And isn't surprised that they need a cat to burn clean in the stuff.


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## teutonicking (Sep 4, 2013)

Machria said:


> That's really nice.  I wish the PH andirons were removable for cleaning the glass.  That is the one thing I hate on the PH, wiping the glass down is a pita since the andirons are so close to the glass and not removable.  It's hard to clean in front of them.


 
+1


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## teutonicking (Sep 4, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Steel firebox, steel andirons, they are getting close to a steel stove. What God intended all of those trees to be burned in.


 
I believe God skipped the stove and went straight to the burning bush.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 4, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I believe God skipped the stove and went straight to the burning bush.



My vote for post of the year.


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## Machria (Sep 4, 2013)

Lol!


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## WoodPorn (Sep 5, 2013)

Machria said:


> Anyone else notice the Masonry heater they made?   WOW!
> http://blog.woodstove.com/search/label/Masonry Heater


 
That this is the coolest looking monster I've seen to date!
Are these types of stoves intended for the main living areas or more basement dweller?


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## Huntindog1 (Sep 5, 2013)

teutonicking said:


> I believe God skipped the stove and went straight to the burning bush.



You always have to ask permission from Mrs's.


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## BrianK (Sep 5, 2013)

BrianK said:


> I just put in a request for a fleur de lis andirons rendering (my daughter's favorite design.)



The folks at Woodstock are amazing in their eager response to customer suggestions:



> *Have a good idea for andirons?  Send us your idea (in drawing or image form) and we’ll convert it into a rendering and/or sample cut and post it here!*
> 
> We'll start adding the suggestions below:
> 
> ...


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## charly (Sep 5, 2013)

BrianK said:


> The folks at Woodstock are amazing in their eager response to customer suggestions:


Yes, the best way I can describe the folks at Woodstock is they make you feel and treat you like family!


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## Machria (Sep 5, 2013)

WoodPorn said:


> That this is the coolest looking monster I've seen to date!
> Are these types of stoves intended for the main living areas or more basement dweller?



Got me.  But from the looks of it, you'd want that front and center.  And since it's an oven, I'd think it would be in the main area at least adjacent to the kitchen.  That thing is beautiful!


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## Flatbedford (Sep 5, 2013)

They had one going at the pig roast back in 2011. It is quite impressive!


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## Machria (Sep 5, 2013)

WOW!


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 5, 2013)

It takes more than 3 men and a boy to move that beast. Here is my wife standing beside it so you get an idea of the size. No, not the size of my wife, it is the stove I'm referring to.


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## Machria (Sep 5, 2013)

Shouldn't she be sitting on a milk crate?


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## BrotherBart (Sep 5, 2013)

Judy doesn't sit on milk crates. She is the one that checks and cleans the chimney.


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## Flatbedford (Sep 6, 2013)

What Dennis didn't tell you all is that Judy is 6'-3" tall!


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 6, 2013)

Flatbedford said:


> What Dennis didn't tell you all is that Judy is 6'-3" tall!



Steve, if that were true, I'd be well over 7' tall.


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## HollowHill (Sep 7, 2013)

BrianK said:


> The folks at Woodstock are amazing in their eager response to customer suggestions:


Brian,  that's the nicest looking one so far!


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## rdust (Sep 7, 2013)

Am I understanding it right that the andirons fold down/out when the door is opened?  If so that will just be something to burn myself on when loading the stove.  The stove is a front loader no reason for it to have andirons imo.


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## rdust (Sep 7, 2013)

begreen said:


> Man, I thought Macaholics were bad.



  WS sure has some loyal fans we can't argue that!


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## Backwoods Savage (Sep 7, 2013)

For sure folks will have to wear gloves when filling this stove. Which, I've always stated that everyone should do every time the fill the stove unless it is a cold start.


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## begreen (Sep 7, 2013)

Me bad. Since getting the T6  I only put on gloves if I need to handle a split. That big door and firebox have helped me get down to one burn or less a season.


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## charly (Sep 8, 2013)

I always wear gloves reason being, I never throw or chuck my wood into the stove, especially with the soapstone inside the Fireview, I always set my wood in... that way no cracked stones!


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## begreen (Sep 8, 2013)

Likewise I don't chuck logs in. If needed, I use a poker rod with an L on the end to position the logs in the back. No cracked stones going on season 5. Note I think that gloves are a good idea in general. The big mouth of the T6 has just allowed me to be a bit more casual with loading. Now watch, my first fire of the season will result in a big arm hair singe.


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