# Everything Drolet Tundra - Heatmax...



## brenndatomu

Well there seems to be a ton of these things out on the market now (and building) and since they are marketed to DIYers I think it would be a good idea to try to consolidate questions, solutions, pictures and general helpful and/or interesting bits of info regarding the Tundra / HeatMax that the members here have, into one ongoing thread.
Lets try to keep this more or less on topic and pizzin contest/product bashing free so as to keep this thread open, helpful, and ongoing for everybody.
Like I said, pics are good, install details...especially on chimney and duct work, operational tips and whatever else that may apply here. Seasoned owners, newbies, and prospective buyers all welcome.
There is no affiliation with Drolet/SBI here, merely trying to promote DIYer helping DIYer.
Oh, and I don't actually own one, just facilitating some peoples interest in doing a thread like this...can I get some help here? Thanks!
And awaaay we go!


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## brenndatomu

Tip # 1. These thing don't like one year seasoned wood generally.
Two years works much better, sometimes three depending on wood species and storage conditions
Tip #2. If you _are_ stuck with marginal wood, something that can help you get by temporarily is to supplement your firewood load with a little kiln dried wood such as framing cut offs (2x4s and such) or cut up an old pallet (what did you do with the one the furnace came on?) also adding a Eco brick (compressed sawdust brick) or two to the load works too.
If you have really wet wood then that just won't work...


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## Wisneaky

So my house total is about 1100 sq ft. and my basement is about 800 sq ft. I have my tundra piped into my lp furnace plenum. I have a 19' chimney with a 6" duravent duraliner installed. I don't have any heat ducts in my basement, but my basement stays about 70-80 degrees. I have my Tundra hooked up to a thermostat and I keep it at 70 degrees. I had a my own issues with the tundra when I first got it. First the rod that controls the front damper was installed wrong so it didn't open. The damper door is a little bent and sometimes sticks, but I bent it back as close as I could get it. My furnace was one of the first couple hundred so the ash pan didn't have the fix in it. The vermiculite baffle up on top has cracked in half twice on me now, both times SBI replaced it, but when it is broke the thing doesn't heat worth a damn. I ordered the cold air return kit because the firebox wasn't getting hot enough, the cold air kit comes with a new thermodisc that is relocated on the top of the unit. I have back draft dampers installed in my two 8" rounds, but I have tried it both ways and found that the heat coming out of the vents is much higher when installed. I have tried every setting possible with the blower speed and my house heats the best when it is on the lowest setting and this also produces the least amount of coals. I have tried without a baro, with a baro, and with a manual damper and the best was has been the manual damper and this is the way I have it installed now. I get between 8-12 hours of heat with the way it is set up now. I learned really quick that the flue must be cleaned almost monthly. I went for almost 3 months my first time until I found out the tee was almost all the way blocked. I get about 4 cups of creosote out of it each month, but it is dry and flaky and not sticky. When I had the baro installed I did have sticky creosote in the baro. I use a moisture meter because this thing is really picky and needs dry wood. I also have a digital monometer to test flue drafts and I try to keep the draft around -.05 My themometer on the front of my furnace is usually 325-400 degrees. Vent temp in rooms is usually 125 degrees. I have checked outside pipe temp at about 300 and inside 650ish. Here are some pictures of my setup.
	

		
			
		

		
	






Tips:
#1 Dry wood. Buy a moisture meter
#2 The right draft. Buy a manometer
#3 Good thermostat. Recommend Honeywell focus pro 5000
#4 Two thermometers. One for the front of the furnace and a probe one for the pipe.
#5 Don't mess with it. Get a hot burning fire, I get my front thermometer up to 325 degrees, shut the damper and don't mess with it or put wood on it until atleast 8 hours later. If you put more wood on top it messes with the secondary burn and creates coals.


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## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> So my house total is about 1100 sq ft. and my basement is about 800 sq ft. I have my tundra piped into my lp furnace plenum. I have a 19' chimney with a 6" duravent duraliner installed. I don't have any heat ducts in my basement, but my basement stays about 70-80 degrees. I have my Tundra hooked up to a thermostat and I keep it at 70 degrees. I had a my own issues with the tundra when I first got it. First the rod that controls the front damper was installed wrong so it didn't open. The damper door is a little bent and sometimes sticks, but I bent it back as close as I could get it. My furnace was one of the first couple hundred so the ash pan didn't have the fix in it. The vermiculite baffle up on top has cracked in half twice on me now, both times SBI replaced it, but when it is broke the thing doesn't heat worth a damn. I ordered the cold air return kit because the firebox wasn't getting hot enough, the cold air kit comes with a new thermodisc that is relocated on the top of the unit. I have back draft dampers installed in my two 8" rounds, but I have tried it both ways and found that the heat coming out of the vents is much higher when installed. I have tried every setting possible with the blower speed and my house heats the best when it is on the lowest setting and this also produces the least amount of coals. I have tried without a baro, with a baro, and with a manual damper and the best was has been the manual damper and this is the way I have it installed now. I get between 8-12 hours of heat with the way it is set up now. I learned really quick that the flue must be cleaned almost monthly. I went for almost 3 months my first time until I found out the tee was almost all the way blocked. I get about 4 cups of creosote out of it each month, but it is dry and flaky and not sticky. When I had the baro installed I did have sticky creosote in the baro. I use a moisture meter because this thing is really picky and needs dry wood. I also have a digital monometer to test flue drafts and I try to keep the draft around -.05 My themometer on the front of my furnace is usually 325-400 degrees. Vent temp in rooms is usually 125 degrees. I have checked outside pipe temp at about 300 and inside 650ish. Here are some pictures of my setup.
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> View attachment 153019
> View attachment 153020
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> Tips:
> #1 Dry wood. Buy a moisture meter
> #2 The right draft. Buy a manometer
> #3 Good thermostat. Recommend Honeywell focus pro 5000
> #4 Two thermometers. One for the front of the furnace and a probe one for the pipe.
> #5 Don't mess with it. Get a hot burning fire, I get my front thermometer up to 325 degrees, shut the damper and don't mess with it or put wood on it until atleast 8 hours later. If you put more wood on top it messes with the secondary burn and creates coals.


Perfect first contribution, exactly what I had in mind to start things off, thanks W!


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## DoubleB

A couple random thoughts...

1.  If I'm concerned that my wood might be on the moist side, I have a spare shiny piece of ductwork that I prop in front of (but not against) the glass door.  I don't know how effective, but I tell myself that it reflects heat back in and helps ensure the secondaries stay going.  Otherwise my concrete floor gets warm from the heat radiation, so it must do some good, hasn't failed yet.  I only do that once the damper is closed, for fear of things getting too hot while the damper is open.

2.  I continue to be impressed that, once the damper shuts and secondaries are humming, I can put my hand on the black pipe outlet on the rear of the stove.  I feel quite satisfied knowing that so many BTUs are staying in my house and not up the chimney.

3.  Again, since the exhaust is not scalding, it lets me stick my fingers in through my barometric damper to absorb any smells of the exhaust and let my nose be a combustion analyzer.  Sounds silly, but I do it because the furnace lets me, and it helps trick myself into thinking I know what I'm doing...


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## NateJD

View attachment 153091

	

		
			
		

		
	
 I've been shopping and deciding for a year now. Ordered last week and picked up on Friday!  Not installing until this summer. Need to line the chimney, tuck point the exterior, and pour a new cap. Over the past year I have read everything, including every page of the a-site discussion. I am happy to see they fixed the ash drawer problem and moved the snap disks. Very pleased with the quality of the unit. No stripped screws or broken baffles like I had read. Still trying to get 3 more guys to get it in my basement. Oh, and I have been cutting whatever I find for the last year and have about 5 cords css of oak, maple, cherry, locust, and some pine. Anyways, where and how do you folks attach your manometer?  Specifically what kind of fittings do you use?  Also interested in your ductwork and the whole static pressure thing. I will be building a completely separate system from the propane forced air system since it is made of duct board and flex lines. Looking forward to seeing everyone's installs.


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## trx250r87

Located in Northeast Wisconsin I have a newer 1700+ sq' ranch w/13' open concept cathedral ceilings in main area, plus full unfinished basement. I personally installed 21' of Supervent 6" stainless double wall pipe and @6' double wall black pipe w/90*, straight up through inside of house and unheated attic, then penetrates roof near the peak. I previously had a Vogelzang Norseman 2500 installed in basement but hated it after owning it about a year. I found the Drolet Tundra on Craigslist last winter. It was only a couple months old and looked like new (and I saved $750).

I sold the Vogelzang for close to what I paid for it and installed the Tundra. When it came to hooking up the Tundra, it was pretty much an exact swap. I did add a manual damper on my double wall black pipe because I felt my draft was too strong (later confirmed after purchasing Dwyer Mark II manometer). I ended up setting my fan speed to the highest setting and replacing the rear fan control snap disc with an adjustable White-Rodgers 3F05-3 set at 110* on/90* off.

So far I installed the factory ash drawer update and had the damper motor fail. Both items replaced at no cost to me with parts sent by SBI (parent company of Drolet). I don't even bother with the ash drawer anyway.

My only complaints are that the plenum leaks air all over, screws seem to get loose or strip out, and the fan blower vibrates a little. I think the fan is mounted to the airfilter box and not directly to the furnace.


Eric


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## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I have a spare shiny piece of ductwork that I prop in front of (but not against) the glass door. I don't know how effective, but I tell myself that it reflects heat back in and helps ensure the secondaries stay going.


I'm sure it is helping to reflect some of the radiant heat. When questioned why they didn't offer a glass door for their Vaporfire furnaces, Kuuma said it would affect the insulated firebox temps too much, and ultimately their ultra high efficiency.


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## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> where and how do you folks attach your manometer? Specifically what kind of fittings do you use?


You can test draft any where between the furnace and any dampers in the pipe (manual or baro) Preferably not too close to any elbows, middle of a straight run is good.
As far as connecting, there are many ways to do it, but one of the simplest methods is to get a piece of metal tubing 1' or 2' long that the rubber tubing that comes with the manometer will fit into or over. Drill a hole in the side of the stove pipe that the metal tubing will fit into snugly (but not too tight) and after bending the tubing into an S shape, it will just hang on the stove pipe. Pull it out occasionally to make sure it hasn't creosoted over on the end, that has cause me some "what the?!" moments in the past. The tubing is long enough to keep the rubber tubing from melting.


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## DoubleB

trx250r87 said:


> the plenum leaks air all over



I was able to reach in through the removed outlet covers and wiggle some aluminum tape on the inside of the plenum to cover the backside of the lasercut "DROLET" emblem.  That's where I was losing a lot of air.  For those that haven't installed yet and are interested, it might be easier to do while all four outlets are unobstructed, instead of once two outlets are used.

I also used aluminum tape to seal the transition between the blower and the plenum, as a guy had suggested on ASite.  

But yes, there are still other locations with air leaks.


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## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> there are still other locations with air leaks.


I noticed in the manual it says " The furnace air jacket is not totally air tight. It is normal to detect some air leaks at the jackets joints" I'm sure it doesn't hurt to try to seal 'er up a bit though. For me I don't worry about duct leaks because it is still going into heated/cooled space.


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## Wisneaky

brenndatomu said:


> I noticed in the manual it says " The furnace air jacket is not totally air tight. It is normal to detect some air leaks at the jackets joints" I'm sure it doesn't hurt to try to seal 'er up a bit though. For me I don't worry about duct leaks because it is still going into heated/cooled space.


I actually want it to heat my basement since I don't have any heat ducts down there.


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## DoubleB

Wisneaky said:


> I actually want it to heat my basement since I don't have any heat ducts down there.



Good point.  For my installation, I don't have any basement heat registers either, my basement is leaky stone, 1/3 above grade, of course uninsulated, and the furnace still keeps the basement only 5 degrees cooler than the upstairs.  Of course, the basement isn't living space, but plenty comfortable when I'm working down there, and I'm trying to get as much heat upstairs as I can.  But it certainly makes sense in other cases to want some warm air in the basement.


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## Wisneaky

DoubleB said:


> Good point.  For my installation, I don't have any basement heat registers either, my basement is leaky stone, 1/3 above grade, of course uninsulated, and the furnace still keeps the basement only 5 degrees cooler than the upstairs.  Of course, the basement isn't living space, but plenty comfortable when I'm working down there, and I'm trying to get as much heat upstairs as I can.  But it certainly makes sense in other cases to want some warm air in the basement.


I just want to keep my water pipes from freezing.


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## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> Anyways, where and how do you folks attach your manometer? Specifically what kind of fittings do you use? Also interested in your ductwork and the whole static pressure thing.


Not an HVAC tech here, but I believe you can use your manometer. Here's a basic explanation I found online...

"Static pressure is read with either a manometer or magnahelic gauge. These gauges read in "inches water column". Static pressure is the outward pressure on the duct. It's very similar to reading the pressure on a tire but in much lower pressures.

The supply static is measured in the plenum. If this is a furnace with air conditioning, you should read the pressure before the coil. If there is no room, you can mesure it afterwords and deduct the pressure drop from the coil data sheet. The return is measured in the return duct before the OEM filter. If a aftermarket or special filter is used, you measure between the filter and the blower. The return static will be measured as a negative pressure.

The system static, or external static ppressure is the difference between the return and supply static. So if you had say a -.25 return and a +.35 supply static, you would have a external static pressure of .60 inches water column. The external static is what the blower ratings use.

The probe is simply inserted through a hole in the duct (make a hole and it is now called a test port)."

Read more: http://www.justanswer.com/hvac/40l57-measure-static-pressure-ducts.html#ixzz3RIvHxlUP

You can internet search measuring static pressure and there are plenty of vids on how to do it on youtube also.
Oh, and I noticed in the manual that the .2 pressure recommendation is a _minimum_ pressure


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## TheBigIron

Does anyone know where i can purchase a backflow damper for my furnace, 20" x 20"?  Can i special order one of these from yukon eagle site?  Thanks any info would be appreciated as I start with my Tundra install..  thanks again 

Dave


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## Wisneaky

The46Zone said:


> Does anyone know where i can purchase a backflow damper for my furnace, 20" x 20"?  Can i special order one of these from yukon eagle site?  Thanks any info would be appreciated as I start with my Tundra install..  thanks again
> 
> Dave


I bought mine from Grainger. Check them out.


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## roofyroo

Wisneaky said:


> I learned really quick that the flue must be cleaned almost monthly.



Is this still the case now you've been using this a while? Every month?


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## laynes69

You shouldn't have to clean things monthly if operating correctly. I sweep mine once a month for my own piece of mind, but I only remove a couple cups worth of soot from our 32' chimney, compared to the 2.5 gallons I used to remove from the old furnace.


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## Wisneaky

roofyroo said:


> Is this still the case now you've been using this a while? Every month?


I get about 2-4 cups of soot a month. If I let that go for 3 months my tee would be plugged. So I do it monthly. Takes me 10 minutes to clean with my brush that I run up from the basement.


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## JRHAWK9

The46Zone said:


> Does anyone know where i can purchase a backflow damper for my furnace, 20" x 20"?  Can i special order one of these from yukon eagle site?  Thanks any info would be appreciated as I start with my Tundra install..  thanks again
> 
> Dave



I got my Belimo powered one from Retrozone.  They were awesome to deal with....


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## DoubleB

Here’s mine...

Last fall I hired a contractor to install my Tundra as required by the insurance company.  Contractor did nothing in the manner we agreed (configuration, clearance to combustibles, gravity flow, etc.).  I have been operating the Tundra since November, but this past weekend I took all the ductwork out and started all over myself.

I decided to keep the Tundra ductwork separate from the LP furnace ductwork so that I could achieve clearances to combustibles, avoid the a/c coil, avoid blower problems if both furnaces were on at the same time, etc.  I had to make the Tundra plenum kind of funky angled to get it all to fit around the existing LP ductwork yet stay at least 6 feet high to avoid bonking my head.  I’m fortunate that my old farmhouse has very generous headroom in the basement.  I now have three 8” round ducts and one 6” round duct coming off the plenum, most of which are pretty short, so I seem to get lots of airflow on the factory setting (2nd speed).

The contractors had originally used the front and back outlets.  As you can see I now use the side by side outlets as recommended.  I now know some reasons why:  The front and back configuration had less air flow, was noisier air flow, and lopsided heat (front hot and back only warm).

Chimney has stainless liner but not insulated, 37-feet tall.  I have a barometric damper.

I also have some moisture seep up under my basement floor in the exact spot I needed the furnace, so I put a sheet of plastic down, topped with cement board, to try to minimize risk of corrosion to the underside.

I have some black soot going on the glass in the pictures.  I'll ask about that in a different post.


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## TheBigIron

Hello all...

As I begin with my Tundra install a couple of questions that I have (I definitely will have more).  I'm going to start with my chimney and going to drop a ss liner down it.  My question is since my chimney is in the middle of my home and receives heat from the house except for maybe 12', should I insulate the liner or not.  Chimney total length approximately 30'.  thanks for your input

Dave


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## roofyroo

Insulating the chimney liner is a yes if burning wood.

I paid $950 for a 30ft liner and insulation (25ft and 5ft) from Supply House. I used the Z-flex kit. It was relatively easy to do seeing as I had no idea how to begin about 5 weeks ago. I taped my rope to the liner and had someone else help pull it down my chimney while I guided the top.

Put your Tundra off the ground - breeze bricks (what the Brits call them - the grey things) you can get 4 for a $6.


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## TheBigIron

DoubleB said:


> Here’s mine...
> 
> Last fall I hired a contractor to install my Tundra as required by the insurance company.  Contractor did nothing in the manner we agreed (configuration, clearance to combustibles, gravity flow, etc.).  I have been operating the Tundra since November, but this past weekend I took all the ductwork out and started all over myself.
> 
> I decided to keep the Tundra ductwork separate from the LP furnace ductwork so that I could achieve clearances to combustibles, avoid the a/c coil, avoid blower problems if both furnaces were on at the same time, etc.  I had to make the Tundra plenum kind of funky angled to get it all to fit around the existing LP ductwork yet stay at least 6 feet high to avoid bonking my head.  I’m fortunate that my old farmhouse has very generous headroom in the basement.  I now have three 8” round ducts and one 6” round duct coming off the plenum, most of which are pretty short, so I seem to get lots of airflow on the factory setting (2nd speed).
> 
> The contractors had originally used the front and back outlets.  As you can see I now use the side by side outlets as recommended.  I now know some reasons why:  The front and back configuration had less air flow, was noisier air flow, and lopsided heat (front hot and back only warm).
> 
> Chimney has stainless liner but not insulated, 37-feet tall.  I have a barometric damper.
> 
> I also have some moisture seep up under my basement floor in the exact spot I needed the furnace, so I put a sheet of plastic down, topped with cement board, to try to minimize risk of corrosion to the underside.
> 
> I have some black soot going on the glass in the pictures.  I'll ask about that in a different post.
> 
> View attachment 154016
> View attachment 154017
> View attachment 154018


B

That looks amazing...  Great job man, turned out awesome.  Hopefully mine will look and operate like yours..


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## DoubleB

Thanks 46Z.  It's serving me well so far.  Kudos to Brenndatomu for starting this thread, hopefully we can all get good ideas from others.  I know I am.


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## TheBigIron

DoubleB said:


> Thanks 46Z.  It's serving me well so far.  Kudos to Brenndatomu for starting this thread, hopefully we can all get good ideas from others.  I know I am.


B

What are your thoughts on insulating my ss chimney liner??


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## DoubleB

I was mum because I'm no authority on chimneys and my Dwyer manometer is on order so I haven't verified my drafts yet.

My 37' uninsulated SS liner is 6" diameter, down my masonry chimney.  From what I can tell, I have too much draft, if anything.  My baro damper seems to either be closed (no fire), or full open (fire).  Again, I look forward to measuring my actual drafts to see if my baro is too light.  But I can easily get a roaring fire so I don't think I'm lacking draft even with baro wide open.

I also have two 45-deg elbows connecting the Tundra to my chimney, about 5 feet away, so little flow restriction there.

I've only cleaned my chimney once, after 5 weeks of burning, and I really probably didn't need to.  I got a few cups of black flaky stuff, no glossy hard stuff except the top foot at the chimney cap.  That was 2+ months ago, I should do it again just to get a feel for it's tendencies.  I have no experience with an insulated liner inside a masonry chimney, but I think those guys say they have very little creosote.  However, I wonder if that's just because they're burning really good wood?  My wonder is because, if I can put my hand on the exhaust at my furnace because it's so cool, I would guess that either insulated or uninsulated would both be similarly quite cool to condense any creosote that escapes the furnace.

I went uninsulated mainly because my chimney sweep said I wouldn't need insulated, and he said there was hardly any room to add insulation anyways.  

I think Laynes has said he's got a 28' insulated chimney, so he's in the same ballpark as you are too.  

So, based on my experience, I think you'd be fine uninsulated with minimal elbows.  I look forward to other people's input.


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## brenndatomu

The46Zone said:


> I'm going to start with my chimney and going to drop a ss liner down it. My question is since my chimney is in the middle of my home and receives heat from the house except for maybe 12', should I insulate the liner or not. Chimney total length approximately 30'. thanks for your input



Hmm, that's a good question. Normally they say if the chimney is inside the house and structurally sound that you don't have to insulate but it is still a good idea because there is no way to know if it was really built properly as far as clearance to combustibles. Also, unless you have had a sweep come in and give the full length of the chimney a camera inspection it is still a good idea to insulate just because you never know where a crack is starting. You and your family are going to bed with a fire in the house you know...respect the fire.
I'd insulate the full length...


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## joes169

I only have about 20' of chimney (low roof pitch, single story) and only about 2' of my chimney is above the roof line.  Also, I had an 8.5" by 13" flue, so I had plenty of room left.  I wasn't sure the best way to actually "hang" and stabilze the liner (I really didn't want it hanging on the tee, and didn't want to rely on the flashing collar on top) so I simply mixed up what's called "insulating castable" and poured it around the top 3' or so of the flue, which is likely cool the fastest.  It makes the pipe nice and solid, and the stuff is lean enough that I could always get it out if I had to replace the liner or something.


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## Wisneaky

I wanted to share something. I have one of the first couple hundred Tundra's made. A couple weeks back I was at Menards and noticed on the new Tundra's the damper door was redesigned. I emailed SBI and they sent me the new door. It comes with some sort of shiny metal insert and the new door. The new door is redesigned in a fashion that when it closes it stays open partially thus always letting in some air. Here are some pictures of the old and new.


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## DoubleB

Wisneaky said:


> I have one of the first couple hundred Tundra's made. A couple weeks back I was at Menards and noticed on the new Tundra's the damper door was redesigned.



Interesting--I have a recent Tundra (June 2014, post ash-drawer) yet it doesn't have the shiny metal insert that you show in your last two pictures.  Any word why the change?

Do you happen to recall if the unit you saw at Menards also had the damper cracked open?  I was down their aisle recently and don't recall seeing the damper cracked open.

Edit:  On second thought, maybe the shiny part is only needed for retro kits, and newer furnaces are inherently designed with whatever air holes are needed.

Do you notice a difference in your furnace performance now?


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## Wisneaky

DoubleB said:


> Interesting--I have a recent Tundra (June 2014, post ash-drawer) yet it doesn't have the shiny metal insert that you show in your last two pictures.  Any word why the change?
> 
> Do you happen to recall if the unit you saw at Menards also had the damper cracked open?  I was down their aisle recently and don't recall seeing the damper cracked open.
> 
> Edit:  On second thought, maybe the shiny part is only needed for retro kits, and newer furnaces are inherently designed with whatever air holes are needed.
> 
> Do you notice a difference in your furnace performance now?


I'm not sure why they changed it. I honestly don't remember if the one at Menards was cracked open, but I know it did have the shiny insert. I just installed it so I'm not sure if their is any performance change yet.


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## DoubleB

Well I finally got a manometer hooked up.  Draft measures at 0.05 inH20, supposed to be 0.04 to 0.06.  I'm probably just lucky, but I had adjusted the baro damper over the last few months to get what I thought appeared to be an appropriate fire, so I'm happy with that.  I'll keep checking on warm calm days and really cold and windy days.

Then, I measured pressure in my ducts.  I'm using slow (900 cfm) speed.  I found that my supply plenum is at +0.08 inH20, which I understand suggests I designed my supply well enough.  I also measured my cold return on the upstream side of the air filter, it was -0.07 inH20, again I believe that's a good number.  (I made a separate duct system for the Tundra, separate from my LP furnace).

I was all happy until I measured 1" later on the downstream side of the filter, and found it was -0.30inH20.  If that's right, that means that my blower is producing a total of 0.37 inH20, 0.15 of which (40%) is to move air through the ducts, and 0.23 of which (60%) is just to move air 1 inch through the filter.  I oriented the probe both parallel and perpendicular to the airstream, with similar results.

It's a new filter, and in fact has 8% more surface area because I'm using a 16x20 instead of the original 15x20.  It's just a plain pleated MERV7 filter from Menards.

I was just so surprised that the filter consumed most of the pressure the blower produces.  Is this normal?  Am I missing something here?

At a minimum, I can see why the Tundra manual tells us to remove the filter in a power outage.


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## JRHAWK9

A higher MERV filter rating will do that.  You just need a cheap filter like -THESE-

Doesn't the Tundra manual call for 0.2" - 0.5" of static pressure on the supply side?


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## Wisneaky

Tundra supply should be .2 inh2o


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## DoubleB

I recall the manual said 0.2 inH20 in a way that wasn't very clear relative to what.  For example, 0.2 inH20 in the supply but no filter or cold air ducts represents a much higher airflow than my 0.07 inH20 in the supply and -0.30 inH20 suction after my filter and cold air duct.  In other words, I don't understand supply pressure alone to mean much from the furnace's vantage point, as long as the supply air is not too hot indicative of failing to have enough air to carry heat away from the furnace.  I seem to be getting plenty of airflow, since even with a raging fire my air temperatures have a hard time reaching 125-130F.

Or, said yet another way, I pulled the filter just now and measured about 0.10inH20 supply about about -0.10inH20 return air.  That's the same as 0.20inH20 supply in Tundras that don't use return air ducts.  So if I used a cheap MERV2 filter like JRHAWK linked, I'd be getting the same airflow as one can conceive the manual calls for.

Please tell me if I'm off on something.


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## JRHAWK9

Everything I have read said that a typical HVAC system shoots for a total static pressure of 0.5" - 0.75".  So 0.35" supply and -0.2 return would fall into this.  I have no idea if it's correct, it's just a common range in which seemed to have come up while doing some searching online.  My static pressure is around 0.3" supply on my Kumma.  The main  reason for wanting decent static pressure in the supply side of a wood furnace is to slow the air down some to allow it to get heated before moving into the duct.  I'd think if you are getting good heat out of your ducts with low static pressure, then I don't think it's an issue.  Although I could be completely wrong.


----------



## Wisneaky

I talked with an SBI tech on the phone a while back about the static pressure and he told me that the supply side should be .2 inH2o with or without a filter. You'd just need to adjust blower speed and or trunk size to get it that that reading.


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## STIHLY DAN

Pressure is pressure. if it calls for .2 in the supply then that's what you want your reading to be. If its plus 2 in the supply then it should be around -2 on the return. You can turn your fan up or turn down some of your balancing dampers. I would increase fan speed so there is more flow on an outage.
 Re-reading your numbers, your unit has to be losing air before your supply reading. I understand these are VERY leaky units, many people had to do serious air sealing on the UNIT to get there press right.


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## DoubleB

Thanks guys, makes sense.  Then the 0.20" spec in the manual must be SBI helping us get equal flow out of our supply registers, and have nothing to do with removing heat from the furnace.  I suspect that because otherwise the manual would have a max allowable pressure across the blower.  If the manual says it's ok to operate at low speed with 0.20" in the supply plenum, then I can only have more total airflow if my entire pressure drop (with lighter filter) in the system is less than that.  And I'm more interested in adequately removing heat from the furnace than in equal flow out of all registers.  House is warm, no fuel bills, wife is happy, I'm happy...

I did put aluminum tape to connect the blower discharge to the housing, and on a couple other places that were leaking air.  I can still feel air leaking in a few places, but nothing too much.

Last weekend for fun in the middle of a small fire I cut power and pulled the filter for 1/2 hour.  I was impressed by the air volume pushing out the registers, and the air wasn't too hot.  That's important to me, so I was pleased.  

When the HVAC guy replaced my oil with LP furnace, he had measured a 0.34" total gain across the blower (cold return to supply plenum) and had said nowadays they shoot for 0.20".  I also thought I had read the same a few places, so that is what I was shooting for.  Maybe I was mistaken, and it is supposed to be a 0.20" goal for the supply plenum only.  Since then the HVAC guy has been wrong more than once too.  

Another question:  how loud would you describe your system?  Mine is loud enough that we couldn't keep the TV super quiet if the kids were sleeping, without missing quiet dialog some of the time.  That example is part of the reason I went to low speed, that helped reduce noise a little bit.  I'd like to make it even quieter if I can.


----------



## Wisneaky

DoubleB said:


> Thanks guys, makes sense.  Then the 0.20" spec in the manual must be SBI helping us get equal flow out of our supply registers, and have nothing to do with removing heat from the furnace.  I suspect that because otherwise the manual would have a max allowable pressure across the blower.  If the manual says it's ok to operate at low speed with 0.20" in the supply plenum, then I can only have more total airflow if my entire pressure drop (with lighter filter) in the system is less than that.  And I'm more interested in adequately removing heat from the furnace than in equal flow out of all registers.  House is warm, no fuel bills, wife is happy, I'm happy...
> 
> I did put aluminum tape to connect the blower discharge to the housing, and on a couple other places that were leaking air.  I can still feel air leaking in a few places, but nothing too much.
> 
> Last weekend for fun in the middle of a small fire I cut power and pulled the filter for 1/2 hour.  I was impressed by the air volume pushing out the registers, and the air wasn't too hot.  That's important to me, so I was pleased.
> 
> When the HVAC guy replaced my oil with LP furnace, he had measured a 0.34" total gain across the blower (cold return to supply plenum) and had said nowadays they shoot for 0.20".  I also thought I had read the same a few places, so that is what I was shooting for.  Maybe I was mistaken, and it is supposed to be a 0.20" goal for the supply plenum only.  Since then the HVAC guy has been wrong more than once too.
> 
> Another question:  how loud would you describe your system?  Mine is loud enough that we couldn't keep the TV super quiet if the kids were sleeping, without missing quiet dialog some of the time.  That example is part of the reason I went to low speed, that helped reduce noise a little bit.  I'd like to make it even quieter if I can.


My tundra is in the basement so the only place you can hear it in my house is in the kitchen because there is an old air return grate in the floor there. My kids are used to noise though. We can crank our TV up and it doesn't bother them.


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## Smoke Signals

Ok, I just found out in another thread that a hot water coil is an option for the Kuuma (thought I had been told otherwise). Any one know if it is an option for the Tundra? Thanks


----------



## brenndatomu

Smoke Signals said:


> Ok, I just found out in another thread that a hot water coil is an option for the Kuuma (thought I had been told otherwise). Any one know if it is an option for the Tundra? Thanks


SBI doesn't offer one that I know of. I suppose you could cob an aftermarket coil in if you were determined...
Doesn't look like a factory option on the Caddy either...


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## davidon

Wisneaky said:


> My tundra is in the basement so the only place you can hear it in my house is in the kitchen because there is an old air return grate in the floor there. My kids are used to noise though. We can crank our TV up and it doesn't bother them.


Need additional input about the noise level from the unit. I am considering getting a unit to put in an unfinished basement however the basement will be finished off and someone will be living there. Is the noise level too loud for someone to be occupying the same area?


----------



## Wisneaky

davidon said:


> Need additional input about the noise level from the unit. I am considering getting a unit to put in an unfinished basement however the basement will be finished off and someone will be living there. Is the noise level too loud for someone to be occupying the same area?


I'd say no. I frequently talk on my phone when I'm in the basement and have no issues hearing the caller on the other end when the blower is going.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I take a nap as often as I can, with my head about 3 ft away from my furnace. But I don't have a tundra.


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## DoubleB

DoubleB said:


> Mine is loud enough that we couldn't keep the TV super quiet if the kids were sleeping, without missing quiet dialog some of the time.



Hope I didn't cause undue alarm.  I'd say my Tundra is a bit quieter than the new high efficiency LP furnace they installed last fall, 90,000 Btu/hr.  (Which, however, isn't as quiet as I was expecting).  I'd also say the Tundra is quieter than the oil furnace I had taken out.


----------



## davidon

DoubleB said:


> Hope I didn't cause undue alarm.  I'd say my Tundra is a bit quieter than the new high efficiency LP furnace they installed last fall, 90,000 Btu/hr.  (Which, however, isn't as quiet as I was expecting).  I'd also say the Tundra is quieter than the oil furnace I had taken out.



Thanks for the input guys. Other question is it seems like the Tundra takes a lot more tweaking to get it set up right compared to the Kuuma. Is this correct?


----------



## brenndatomu

davidon said:


> Thanks for the input guys. Other question is it seems like the Tundra takes a lot more tweaking to get it set up right compared to the Kuuma. Is this correct?


I would say no. It is just that there are a ton more of them out there and they are marketed toward the DIY crowd so you just hear more about the issues. The Kuuma guys are talking with Kuuma over the phone to sort out their issues.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I would say no. It is just that there are a ton more of them out there and they are marketed toward the DIY crowd so you just hear more about the issues.



That's my perception too. 

For example, I think the two 8" ducts on the Tundra give the appearance that you just connect them somewhere convenient and expect it to work fine, but adequate ducting isn't necessarily that troublefree with any furnace.  I think that the large plenum on the Kuuma makes people put more effort into properly connecting ductwork, even though the same principles are involved.  Maybe that's just my perception.

SBI offers good customer service too, although Kuuma sounds like they have a more personal and see-you-through-it interaction.


----------



## davidon

DoubleB said:


> That's my perception too.
> 
> For example, I think the two 8" ducts on the Tundra give the appearance that you just connect them somewhere convenient and expect it to work fine, but adequate ducting isn't necessarily that troublefree with any furnace.  I think that the large plenum on the Kuuma makes people put more effort into properly connecting ductwork, even though the same principles are involved.  Maybe that's just my perception.
> 
> SBI offers good customer service too, although Kuuma sounds like they have a more personal and see-you-through-it interaction.


OK well looks like I'll go with a Tundra. Will have to ask about installation at some point if the questions are not already answered. Any easy way to get the thing to the basement? Also what else needs to be ordered besides the furnace for a complete set-up? I already have a lined chimney.


----------



## brenndatomu

davidon said:


> Any easy way to get the thing to the basement?


Depends on your house. What's your basement access like?


davidon said:


> Also what else needs to be ordered besides the furnace for a complete set-up?


What ever you will need for your duct work and your stove pipe. Don't forget the barometric damper (I personally would install a key damper also, but that's just me) I would also highly recommend a Dwyer Mark II model 25 manometer too. Oh, and a thermostat, Honeywell FocusPro 5000 works well for the money...


----------



## davidon

brenndatomu said:


> Depends on your house. What's your basement access like?
> 
> What ever you will need for your duct work and your stove pipe. Don't forget the barometric damper (I personally would install a key damper also, but that's just me) I would also highly recommend a Dwyer Mark II model 25 manometer too. Oh, and a thermostat, Honeywell FocusPro 5000 works well for the money...


I have basement access from inside garage..about 8 steps down to basement.


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## brenndatomu

davidon said:


> I have basement access from inside garage..about 8 steps down to basement.


A straight shot? That makes it pretty easy. Just round up some help, strap the Tundra to its pallet and slide it down the steps on a couple 2 x 10s or the like. Additional safety/control can be had by tying it to a vehicle in the garage to control the rate of decent.


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## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I have basement access from inside garage..about 8 steps down to basement.
> A straight shot? That makes it pretty easy. Just round up some help, strap the Tundra to its pallet and slide it down the steps on a couple 2 x 10s or the like. Additional safety/control can be had by tying it to a vehicle in the garage to control the rate of decent.



Gee, I should've had you both help me last August.  I have the same arrangement and did the same thing.  I used hefty ratchet straps in reverse to safely lower into the basement.  Screwed the 2x4s to the pallet so they wouldn't get away from me.

And the smartest ideas I can offer:
1.  leave your flip-flops in the truck bed (photo 1).
2.  Put your poor brother-in-law on underside of the 550 lb furnace (photo 2).


----------



## ole

New member here Southern Wisconsin. Looked at the Drolet at Menards a couple weeks ago. I own a 40 acre woods about 1/4 mile from our home. Thinking about wood heat again. A previous home I burned wood for about 16 years. I am going to have a ton of questions but what I learned so far on this forum is very helpful. 

1700 sq foot ranch, no chimney, unfinished basement. Basement is a walk out so getting the stove and wood inside should be easier. I have already started cutting wood, oak, cherry, hickory, and yes some walnut. So my wood should be dry when I get the stove. Am thinking about getting a class A chimney done this summer right up through the middle of the house. Do the two heat runs on the Drolet have to be plumbed in to an existing furnace? I am thinking about cutting in a couple floor registers would that work? I may be wrong but am unsure if I want to modify my existing LP furnace duct work in any way shape or form. 
I have a lot to learn and much info to gather in the meantime I am going to just keep making wood.


----------



## Smoke Signals

Hey Oly, I think a separate system of duck work for the Tundra is actually better. Just make sure it is design properly and you have an adequate amount of outlets to distribute all of the heat this thing will put out.


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## brenndatomu

ole said:


> I am thinking about cutting in a couple floor registers would that work?


I've done that before, it works well, just make sure not to restrict flow...



ole said:


> in the meantime I am going to just keep making wood.





ole said:


> Am thinking about getting a class A chimney done this summer right up through the middle of the house.



Good call(s)


----------



## TheBigIron

Hey Ole, I am currently installing my Tundra in conjunction with my gas furnace.  My ductwork is adequate and with some modifications will be up and running for next season..


----------



## DoubleB

Ole, 
That's what I did, for the same caution you cite.  I have three 8" runs each going to a 6x12 floor register.  Two of the runs are only 6-7 feet long.  I closed the longest run for a test and still had reasonable (not high) static pressure and without the air getting very warm with a solid fire.  A previous test I pulled the plug and had good natural airflow out of the two ducts, 9' basement ceilings floor to floor.  So I'd imagine you might luck out with a very simple system, as long as you follow good HVAC practices.

Also out of precaution, I put some thin high-temp insulation between each register and the wood flooring.

I also installed a couple ample return ducts.


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## DoubleB

Curious if anyone else has paint peeling on the front of their Tundra?  See pictures below at top left of door.

In Wisneaky's post #3, he reports 325F-400F on the front of his furnace.  I'm getting the same at the same measurement location with my thermometer (that I don't necessarily trust, IR thermometer on order) which has indicated as high as 600F over the spot of peeling paint.  The below pictures were taken quite a while into a burn, within a few minutes of each other, so temps had stabilized.

I don't know if 600F is common to peel paint?


----------



## Wisneaky

Mine has various scratches and paint missing in spots. I'm not worried about it.


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## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Curious if anyone else has paint peeling on the front of their Tundra?


Scuffed paint from the thermometer?


DoubleB said:


> I don't know if 600F is common to peel paint?


Nah, not unless they got a bad batch of paint, or bad prep in that spot. My lil Vogelzang stove runs up to 750* (or a bit more) stove top temp, paint is fine. I'm sure VZ doesn't use better paint than Drolet


----------



## Wisneaky

Since I put a probe thermometer in my pipe I don't even pay attention to the thermometer I have on the furnace. Your pretty close to the door there so that temperature is probably about right.


----------



## Wisneaky

One other thing I thought I'd throw out. I've really been digging into the tundra and messing with different setting for the fan speed baro settings and ect. Readings with my thermometer probe in the pipe with a new load it will climb to about 650 degrees once the front damper closes it drops in the area of 250-350 degrees and runs that way most of the burn cycle. When it calls for heat and front damper opens again it climbs to about 500 degrees in a matter of seconds. If anyone doesn't have a probe thermometer I highly recommend getting one. Without a baro or key damper that pipe temp could really get away on a person really fast. It would take a matter of minutes to climb over 1500 degrees and could easily start a chimney fire.


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## Wisneaky

Tundra is working extra hard tonight. It would be nice if it would warm up a little bit.


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## Smoke Signals

Well at least it only feel like -5


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Scuffed paint from the thermometer?



Unfortunately, no.  Paint started peeling long before I applied the thermometer.

I do often run the furnace with the damper wide open to get the house up to temp or to keep things simpler for the wife.  Also, to get the wood dry enough in only one year I split it kind of small, and it seems to offgas too much if I load the entire firebox.  So we've done a lot of small (1/3 firebox) fires with damper open.  Still learning, and getting smarter about how to keep it closed more.

So I might have overfired at times, but I can't imagine by much; smaller loads with a baro damper at -0.05 inches.



Wisneaky said:


> So I know in the past people have asked if it is possible to install a plenum on the Tundra.



Thanks for volunteering and showing the picture, haven't seen one yet.

Any tips for how to attach it?  Could you use existing screw holes, or was it better to drill new holes?

Are your snap discs still on the back of your furnace?  Mine are on top, and I've wondered if would be a problem to put them (and specifically the wires) so far inside the plenum in a power outage.  I suppose one might argue that mine are also in a small plenum--the steel protective cover.


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## JRHAWK9

Wisneaky said:


> I attached it to the top with sheet metal screws. My tundra has both snap discs in top and on back. I've tried both, but the one on top kicks out too soon and shuts the damper so I use the one on back. I think those wires are heat resistant and I've never had a problem with them.




You should be able to wire them both up in parallel.  This way the blower will kick on when the first one trips and off when the last one is to trip.  I have two of them mounted in my plenum in totally different spots to give me two temp sample points as well as comfort knowing I have a backup in case one would fail.  Gives me very consistent blower on/off temps.


----------



## DoubleB

Random story that makes me laugh...

My sister-in-law and her husband have a Kuuma furnace.  She came to visit.  I was showing her my Tundra and our conversation went something like:

Me:  "blah-blah...damper opens and closes...secondary burn tubes...blah-blah..."
SIL:  "WAIT!  Where did you get that ash shovel???"

Me:  "Oh that?  Well it came with the furnace."
SIL:  "No way!  We've been looking for over a year for a shovel that sturdy!"

Me:  "Oh.  Huh.  They also included this little poker."
SIL:  "WHAT?  Now I'm jealous!"

I couldn't help but laugh.  The extra performance was worth the extra $3000 for a Kuuma, but throw in a shovel and poker and maybe they would have saved $3000 with a Tundra.  

Hmm, maybe I should offer to sell her my old car if I include floormats.

By the way, this is no knock on Kuuma, I secretly want one but didn't have the funds.  I suppose if I ever upgrade I'll have a worthy shovel.


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> Random story that makes me laugh...
> 
> My sister-in-law and her husband have a Kuuma furnace.  She came to visit.  I was showing her my Tundra and our conversation went something like:
> 
> Me:  "blah-blah...damper opens and closes...secondary burn tubes...blah-blah..."
> SIL:  "WAIT!  Where did you get that ash shovel???"
> 
> Me:  "Oh that?  Well it came with the furnace."
> SIL:  "No way!  We've been looking for over a year for a shovel that sturdy!"
> 
> Me:  "Oh.  Huh.  They also included this little poker."
> SIL:  "WHAT?  Now I'm jealous!"
> 
> I couldn't help but laugh.  The extra performance was worth the extra $3000 for a Kuuma, but throw in a shovel and poker and maybe they would have saved $3000 with a Tundra.
> 
> Hmm, maybe I should offer to sell her my old car if I include floormats.
> 
> By the way, this is no knock on Kuuma, I secretly want one but didn't have the funds.  I suppose if I ever upgrade I'll have a worthy shovel.




The Kuuma comes with a -combination ash sweeper and coal mover- though.  It's made so you first sweep the ashes in front down the grate and then pull the coals to the front, like shown -HERE-.  There's no need to nor should they be having to shovel the ashes anywhere.  I don't use a shovel or a poker.  Just sweep, pull forward and reload.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Random story that makes me laugh...
> 
> My sister-in-law and her husband have a Kuuma furnace.  She came to visit.  I was showing her my Tundra and our conversation went something like:
> 
> Me:  "blah-blah...damper opens and closes...secondary burn tubes...blah-blah..."
> SIL:  "WAIT!  Where did you get that ash shovel???"
> 
> Me:  "Oh that?  Well it came with the furnace."
> SIL:  "No way!  We've been looking for over a year for a shovel that sturdy!"
> 
> Me:  "Oh.  Huh.  They also included this little poker."
> SIL:  "WHAT?  Now I'm jealous!"
> 
> I couldn't help but laugh.  The extra performance was worth the extra $3000 for a Kuuma, but throw in a shovel and poker and maybe they would have saved $3000 with a Tundra.
> 
> Hmm, maybe I should offer to sell her my old car if I include floormats.
> 
> By the way, this is no knock on Kuuma, I secretly want one but didn't have the funds.  I suppose if I ever upgrade I'll have a worthy shovel.


You should have offered to swap, Tundra with all those AWESOME tools for their Kuuma, with 1 "generic" combo tool!


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> The Kuuma comes with a -combination ash sweeper and coal mover- though.



I didn't know that.  I'll have to ask next time I see them.  Thanks for noting.




brenndatomu said:


> You should have offered to swap, Tundra with all those AWESOME tools for their Kuuma, with 1 "generic" combo tool!



She also really liked the window.  When I remind her of that, I bet a swap will be nearly inevitable.  

But if not, that gives me an idea:  Maybe they'll be even further likely to buy my old car if, along with the floormats, I throw in a clean windshield so they can monitor their driving progress!


----------



## bpwelding2005

anyone else ever have any cracks form on the front of the tundra?? There were A bunch of us around where i live that put in tundras over the summer and i know of at least three of them that have this problem. Anyone that is running these should look them over very closely.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 bottom right corner heat exchanger clean out door (sorry pic is turned 90*) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  bottom left corner heat ex clean out  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 bottom left corner main loading door (glass door) 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 bottom right corner loading door.   first time trying to post pics so sorry if they suck plus there from my flip phone wish i could do better


----------



## JRHAWK9

bpwelding2005 said:


> anyone else ever have any cracks form on the front of the tundra?? There were A bunch of us around where i live that put in tundras over the summer and i know of at least three of them that have this problem. Anyone that is running these should look them over very closely.



Did you take the paint off in spots or did it burn off already in just one winter?    

A couple months back I happened to be in Menards so I stopped and took a look at them.  I was not impressed.  Guessed they would have around a 5 year service life or so.  Looks like I may be wrong.  But hey, they are made for the DIY'er and obviously for those who like putting in furnaces every few years....lol      At $1,100 a crack, you can put in 5 of them for a total of $5,500 and still not get the life out of them as you would one Kuuma.  I've learned a long time ago you get what you pay for and in most situations trying to do things cheaply will only cost you more in the long run.  Then there's the whole safety aspect of it as well; coming from that point of view, this is not cool.


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## bpwelding2005

no the paint is all there yet it just looks that way from the lighting


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## JRHAWK9

bpwelding2005 said:


> no the paint is all there yet it just looks that way from the lighting



Has anyone contacted SBI or Menards about the issue yet?  What have you guys decided to do about it?


----------



## bpwelding2005

we actually got ours threw a dealer because of a wood burner exchange program last spring threw wps and the lung association so the dealer contacted SBI and they wanted pics so i sent him the pics i took this morning and we will see what happens. ill post anything i find out to keep everyone in the loop in case there's others out there with this same issue


----------



## JRHAWK9

bpwelding2005 said:


> we actually got ours threw a dealer because of a wood burner exchange program last spring threw wps and the lung association so the dealer contacted SBI and they wanted pics so i sent him the pics i took this morning and we will see what happens. ill post anything i find out to keep everyone in the loop in case there's others out there with this same issue



Going through a dealer will help you lots I'd imagine.  Just out of curiosity, were all you guys running barometric dampers and had it setup according to how the instructions state?  I can see them coming back stating how it was overfired or something in order to put the blame on you.


----------



## bpwelding2005

i have a baro on mine so max draft was set at .06 which is where its was supposed to be so i know at least mine is in the clear from over drafting


----------



## brenndatomu

bpwelding2005 said:


> anyone else ever have any cracks form on the front of the tundra?? There were A bunch of us around where i live that put in tundras over the summer and i know of at least three of them that have this problem. Anyone that is running these should look them over very closely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bottom right corner heat exchanger clean out door (sorry pic is turned 90*)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bottom left corner heat ex clean out
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bottom left corner main loading door (glass door)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bottom right corner loading door.   first time trying to post pics so sorry if they suck plus there from my flip phone wish i could do better


So this crack is on the heat exchanger clean out door itself or on the body of the HE?


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Did you take the paint off in spots or did it burn off already in just one winter?
> 
> A couple months back I happened to be in Menards so I stopped and took a look at them.  I was not impressed.  Guessed they would have around a 5 year service life or so.  Looks like I may be wrong.  But hey, they are made for the DIY'er and obviously for those who like putting in furnaces every few years....lol      At $1,100 a crack, you can put in 5 of them for a total of $5,500 and still not get the life out of them as you would one Kuuma.  I've learned a long time ago you get what you pay for and in most situations trying to do things cheaply will only cost you more in the long run.  Then there's the whole safety aspect of it as well; coming from that point of view, this is not cool.


Not everybody can afford a Kuuma. Some people are just doing the best they can with what they have at this point in time...and I'd like to see where you found one for $1100


----------



## bpwelding2005

there on the sheet of flat steel that makes up the whole front of the stove, where the clean out and loading door are cut into


----------



## bpwelding2005

maybe this will help visualize whats goin on a little bit better.


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## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Not everybody can afford a Kuuma. Some people are just doing the best they can with what they have at this point in time...and I'd like to see where you found one for $1100



I understand, but one's safety has to come into play here somewhere.  There are some who can't afford to refill their LP in the dead of winter either, so they leave the electric oven on for heat.  Is that now OK because they can't afford to do things the safer way?  At what point do we say, "OK, this is not worth the risk".  The majority of time when our wood furnace is running, there is nobody home.  I needed something I felt safe leaving home unattended.  When I first started out looking for a furnace, I started online at the big box stores.  It didn't take me long to realize it was not the direction I wanted to go.  I then found this website and the rest is history.  It was going to cost me $3,500 for an ICC/Excel chimney, why on earth would I then skimp on a furnace.  I now have a setup I can enjoy for many years and don't even have to worry about cleaning my chimney.  I just find it very hard to believe these cheap furnaces out there will last even 10 years.  When it does fail, will it give the homeowner a sign before it sends the house up in flames....or will it have a catastrophic failure all of a sudden with no previous signs of failure?  When in Menards, the Daka sitting next to the Tundra at least looked like it was well built.  Sorry....end of rant....lol

As far as the price.  I thought I remembered reading that's what some paid for them after their 11% rebate or something.  I could be wrong on the price.    

bpwelding, keep us informed.  I hope things turn out well and they step up to the plate.  It may not hurt to direct them to this thread and point out to them there are plenty of people watching how they handle this situation.  May even want to get the others you know who have had their Tundra's fail on them on here as well.


----------



## bpwelding2005

lucky for the 3 of us that i know of that have had the cracking problems in my area all came from the same dealer so he is pushing them threw SBI as a group. time will tell what they say, when i hear something ill be sure to post it.


----------



## JRHAWK9

BTW, where in NE WI are you?  I grew up in GB.


----------



## bpwelding2005

i grew up between green bay and kewaunee just off hwy 29east in the lil town of poland now i own a home just off I-43 on hwy29 east. guess its a small world on the world wide web some days


----------



## JRHAWK9

Did you go to Kewaunee HS??  Good friend went there (graduated in '90) I dated a girl who lived in Stangleville years ago.....lol


----------



## bpwelding2005

no i went to denmark but i didnt graduate till 2004 so i would of been way behind anyone in that group    lol


----------



## Wisneaky

I've read every single comment on here and on AS about the Tundra and this is the first time I've heard anything about any cracks in it.

Second year burning with mine and still no major issues.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> When it does fail, will it give the homeowner a sign before it sends the house up in flames....or will it have a catastrophic failure all of a sudden with no previous signs of failure?


I don't remember hearing of anybodys house burning down because of a Tundra. No sense in sounding an alarm that doesn't need rung (at least not yet) There are thousands of these things out there plugging away with no problems. And from what I have heard, most people that have had problems, were promptly taken care of by SBI.


JRHAWK9 said:


> As far as the price. I thought I remembered reading that's what some paid for them after their 11% rebate or something. I could be wrong on the price.


$1250 after rebate...


JRHAWK9 said:


> I understand, but one's safety has to come into play here somewhere. There are some who can't afford to refill their LP in the dead of winter either, so they leave the electric oven on for heat. Is that now OK because they can't afford to do things the safer way? At what point do we say, "OK, this is not worth the risk"


Buying the Tundra that you can afford instead of the Kuuma that you can't, is not the same as heating with the oven. I am all about safety, heck I get a bit overboard with it sometimes when it comes to fire risk. But I'd still rather "risk" the .001% chance of something going wrong with a heater that I can afford, to having a 100% chance of freezing to death by just sitting around wishing I had the funds to drop on a $3500 chimney and a $5000 furnace. No chance that it matters if your furnace can last 10 years or not if your frozen
And what is so bad about heating with an electric oven? I realize that is not an ideal situation, _by any means_, but it's not the same as using a gas oven (or stove), I think that is probably what you meant.
*Anyways*...getting this train back on it's tracks...




bpwelding2005 said:


> maybe this will help visualize whats goin on a little bit better.


Yep, sure does, thanks! And keep us posted...


----------



## Wisneaky

So I was curious so I went and looked my Tundra over with a flash light and there is cracks in mine also. I wonder what this is caused from. I will be emailing SBI also. I'm not sure if these would actually effect anything because it looks like its the outside steel, but I see some of my welds are cracked also.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Wisneaky said:


> I've read every single comment on here and on AS about the Tundra and this is the first time I've heard anything about any cracks in it.



This is not directly related to this situation, but in general.  I've been on numerous online forums since the late 90's from cars to ATV's to computers, etc.  One thing I have learned and have actually been burned on in the past is basing purchases solely on reviews from online forums.  Lots of these forums are owned by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. (who just bought out Internet Brands).  They have strict policies regarding ANY negative reviews and/or comments about products sold and/or manufactured by any sponsors of their forums.  On some of the forums anybody posting anything critical of any sponsors products will have their post physically removed.  To this day, on the Corvette forum, there is one tuner who gives LOTS of $$$ to be a sponsor and he has blown up numerous Corvettes due to his bad tuning.  You can't post about it on the Corvette Forum (CF) though, as it will be removed.  See -HERE-  The result of this is filtered reviews.  You only get to read about the positives and not negatives.  This makes for researching products solely through online forums very hard, as you don't know who's a sponsor and who's not. 

Anyway, when doing my research on the Kuuma I physically called and spoke to a handful of owners of the furnace.  I found their reviews on Kuuma's site, used Google to find their phone number and gave them a call.  Yeah, I pretty much stalked them....lol  Everybody was very accommodating though and didn't mind me contacting them.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> This is not directly related to this situation, but in general.  I've been on numerous online forums since the late 90's from cars to ATV's to computers, etc.  One thing I have learned and have actually been burned on in the past is basing purchases solely on reviews from online forums.  Lots of these forums are owned by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co. (who just bought out Internet Brands).  They have strict policies regarding ANY negative reviews and/or comments about products sold and/or manufactured by any sponsors of their forums.  On some of the forums anybody posting anything critical of any sponsors products will have their post physically removed.  To this day, on the Corvette forum, there is one tuner who gives LOTS of $$$ to be a sponsor and he has blown up numerous Corvettes due to his bad tuning.  You can't post about it on the Corvette Forum (CF) though, as it will be removed.  See -HERE-  The result of this is filtered reviews.  You only get to read about the positives and not negatives.  This makes for researching products solely through online forums very hard, as you don't know who's a sponsor and who's not.
> 
> Anyway, when doing my research on the Kuuma I physically called and spoke to a handful of owners of the furnace.  I found their reviews on Kuuma's site, used Google to find their phone number and gave them a call.  Yeah, I pretty much stalked them....lol  Everybody was very accommodating though and didn't mind me contacting them.


Thanks for the heads up on the online reviews. I don't believe that SBI is a sponsor here or on AS (I believe they were a minor sponsor on AS at one time?) And I don't believe that Hearth or AS "cleans up" negative posts on sponsors products, especially if it is a widespread problem and not just some random rant from one or two POed posters. If you are saying that I'm affiliated with SBI, I can assure the closest affiliation I have with them is the new Tundra sitting in my garage awaiting install at my sisters house (and it may stay there a bit longer 'til we see what up with this crack stuff) I have never directly communicated with them in any way.
I agree, Kuuma is top notch, I emailed them a while back, they sent me a list of people (Kuuma furnace owners) and their contact info...never contacted any of them...yet.
But, alas, this is the Tundra thread, not the "why Kuuma is the best" thread so....


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Thanks for the heads up on the online reviews. I don't believe that SBI is a sponsor here or on AS (I believe they were a minor sponsor on AS at one time?) And I don't believe that Hearth or AS "cleans up" negative posts on sponsors products, especially if it is a widespread problem and not just some random rant from one or two POed posters. If you are saying that I'm affiliated with SBI, I can assure the closest affiliation I have with them is the new Tundra sitting in my garage awaiting install at my sisters house (and it may stay there a bit longer 'til we see what up with this crack stuff) I have never directly communicated with them in any way.
> I agree, Kuuma is top notch, I emailed them a while back, they sent me a list of people (Kuuma furnace owners) and their contact info...never contacted any of them...yet.
> But, alas, this is the Tundra thread, not the "why Kuuma is the best" thread so....



I figured we'd soon find out if this forum is ran like some others.  Posts will start disappearing if it is.  I never once thought you were affiliated with SBI, you say too many nice things about Kuuma      

I just thought I needed to post what I did....it's the whole caveat emptor and wasn't targeted towards one person or company.  Just an FYI.    

Will be interesting to see what SBI says about those cracks.  If it is indeed the outer shell like Wisneaky says, they may just simply say it's not a big deal and that's that.


----------



## bpwelding2005

i know the cracks on the bottom around my loading door are a cause for alarm, only reason i noticed them the other day was because i went down stairs with the lights off and could see the orange glow of the fire comeing threw from the fire inside the box. my feeling is SBI may have been shipped a bad batch of steel that can take to hot and cold cycles of the fire and is cracking rather that flexing because steel always expands and contracts between heating and cooling cycles. just my $.02


----------



## BrotherBart

Been riding herd on this beast for ten years and have never seen sponsorship having anything to do with deleting or not deleting posts. In fact we have lost at least three major sponsors that I suspect had gotten a bad taste from some threads on their products.

Oh I have deleted a bunch of posts over that time. But the posters knew why. Nothing to do sponsorship.


----------



## BrotherBart

JRHAWK9 said:


> Lots of these forums are owned by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co



Hmmm... Maybe if KKR ponied up enough.  Believe me if KKR or any other corp. owned the joint the Mod Squad would not be doing this for free.


----------



## DoubleB

Well slap me silly.

I came home and checked and I've got three.

Bottom left corner of heat exchanger cleanout, crack 1/4" long:





Crack bottom right corner of heat exchanger cleanout, crack 1/4" long:



crack bottom right corner of the door, crack 1" long:



I don't know when they popped up, I didn't notice them several weeks ago when I first inspected the peeling paint (post #62).


----------



## laynes69

That sucks. Our Caddy doesn't have a solid steel front like the Tundra, but a false front where air surrounds the front of the furnace. I've checked ours and there's no issues. It looks like stress cracking from heat. Is the portions around the loading door exposed to the main firebox as heat is concerned? I've seen them at our menards, but didn't study them.

Hearth isn't going to shut down a thread. There's plenty of threads like this where other stove owners have encountered problems. I'm sure the company will do the right thing, hopefully.


----------



## DoubleB

bpwelding2005 said:


> i know the cracks on the bottom around my loading door are a cause for alarm



Yeah, that's what it looks like to me too.  I'll investigate further tonight too.


----------



## bpwelding2005

found the post on the other site i was thinking about that i red of another user with cracking issues. link below.
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...door-wood-furnaces.262732/page-2#post-4970426


----------



## bpwelding2005

dont get me wrong i havent shut the stove down because of them yet theres no way for the fire to get threw the cracks and the carbon monoxide detector hasn't gone off in the basement yet. just feel like a stove thats not even completely threw its first heating season should be showing theses kinds of signs of fatigue


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> You should have offered to swap, Tundra with all those AWESOME tools for their Kuuma, with 1 "generic" combo tool!



I am getting about bad feeling about the prospects for this swap.


----------



## DoubleB

The front appears to be 1/4" steel, waterjet cut for the openings for the damper, cleanout, and loading door.  The hole for the cleanout has at best 1/32" radius at the corners for stress relief.  So small it might just be the kerf of the waterjet.  I can't imagine it would have been much different to design 1/8" radius or larger, but that's just the engineer in me.

When was yours fabricated?  Mine was June 2014, serial 8xx.


----------



## bpwelding2005

mine was in the higher 300 serial number range think it was late 2013 but i would have to double check later


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> When was yours fabricated? Mine was June 2014, serial 8xx.


Ruh Roh Raggy...sissies is June '14, #923...project "boot the Yook" may be on hold...she's been run hard but least she no crack ho. I always said Yooks are built like a tank


DoubleB said:


> I am getting about bad feeling about the prospects for this swap.


Shhh, make it happen quick...


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> That sucks. Our Caddy doesn't have a solid steel front like the Tundra, but a false front where air surrounds the front of the furnace. I've checked ours and there's no issues. It looks like stress cracking from heat. Is the portions around the loading door exposed to the main firebox as heat is concerned? I've seen them at our menards, but didn't study them.


You inspected the firebox wall underneath the outer air jacket?


----------



## JRHAWK9

BrotherBart said:


> Been riding herd on this beast for ten years and have never seen sponsorship having anything to do with deleting or not deleting posts. In fact we have lost at least three major sponsors that I suspect had gotten a bad taste from some threads on their products.
> 
> Oh I have deleted a bunch of posts over that time. But the posters knew why. Nothing to do sponsorship.



Good to hear!  It's nice seeing that there are still some non-corporate forums around to help out the common person.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> You inspected the firebox wall underneath the outer air jacket?



This is my guess.  The Caddy line is made from quality steel.  The Tundra....not so much.  They had to cut cost somewhere over the more expensive Caddy.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out the steel from the Tundra comes from someplace like China.  Everything cheap in this country does already.


----------



## BrotherBart

This one was started in 1995 by a hippy that owned a stove store after he moved from the commune.


----------



## BrotherBart

Any heater cracking concerns me. Stove guy, not a furnace guy, but this stuff needs to be addressed. Hope you guys keep sharing your findings and resolution. It often makes people aware to look for something they never thought of. Happens all the time in the hearth and pellet rooms.


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> You inspected the firebox wall underneath the outer air jacket?


I have, but I'll check this year after the season is over.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> This is my guess.  The Caddy line is made from quality steel.  The Tundra....not so much.  They had to cut cost somewhere over the more expensive Caddy.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out the steel from the Tundra comes from someplace like China.  Everything cheap in this country does already.


Well, it's probably whatever SBI spec'ed, china is cheap labor and whatever you want as for the quality, junk or great, you chose. Not sticking up for china here, but they _can_ built quality, if that is what is ordered (not saying there isn't corners cut sometimes though) It's just not ordered enough anymore...profits first. 
I have come across some top quality china made parts at work...I was really surprised to see where they came from


----------



## laynes69

From what Bert has said, SBI's manufacturing is highly automated. Instead of welding a weldment to the face of the furnace, the opening is cut and shaped on a break. I've only seen this on the Caddy or Tundra. I'm not wondering if this is a weak spot in the manufacturing at the corners. It gives it a place to start, then spreads.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> From what Bert has said


Bert?

Well, looks like that lifetime firebox warranty is gonna get some mileage from some a y'all


----------



## STIHLY DAN

"I have come across some top quality china made parts at work...I was really surprised to see where they came from"

I would have been too. Glad to see made in America is making a comeback.


----------



## DoubleB

DoubleB said:


> The front appears to be 1/4" steel



Correction #1.  I measured it this time, it's 3/16", for what that's worth.



DoubleB said:


> I came home and checked and I've got three.



Correction #2.  I've got four cracks.  I looked again and found that a crack is going horizontally through the weld, making a continuation of the horizontal seam between the different metal pieces:




Then I looked some more at the big crack I have on the right bottom of the door, you can see the weld pulling off at the top/right of the weld below:



Here are some pictures from inside looking out the door.  The crack comes in, around the weld, and trails off to the left.  Hard to get good shots without being able to stand inside the furnace, so I have three pictures...







I did start a fire tonight, and at least I don't see daylight through my cracks like BPwelding indicated he has.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Glad to see made in America is making a comeback.


Not quite sure how to take that comment? Sarcastic or...
I know we have a local foundry that has been getting more and more busy the last few years after experiencing a downturn due to losing contracts to china. For one the rail industry has come flocking back due to chinese casting failures, the RR industry can't have and won't put up with casting failures!


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Not quite sure how to take that comment? Sarcastic or...
> I know we have a local foundry that has been getting more and more busy the last few years after experiencing a downturn due to losing contracts to china. For one the rail industry has come flocking back due to chinese casting failures, the RR industry can't have and won't put up with casting failures!



No sarcasm here. There are many companies bringing manufacturing back to the u.s for cost saving reasons associated with Quality and high price of fuel for shipping.


----------



## DoubleB

Plus, labor costs in China have risen quite substantially over the years (from "almost nothing" to "a little bit").  Sometimes that's all it takes to tip the scales back.


----------



## Wisneaky

Everyone knows SBI furnaces are made in Canada?


----------



## Buzz Saw

Wisneaky said:


> Everyone knows SBI furnaces are made in Canada?


Final product comes from Canada, but where are the raw materials sourced  from? Sometimes it's a play on words.


----------



## Wisneaky

Buzz Saw said:


> Final product comes from Canada, but where are the raw materials sourced  from? Sometimes it's a play on words.


I could honestly careless where the parts come from. Who has time to nitpick the hundreds of different parts on a stove or furnace and figure out where each part is made. As long as it works and heats my house, that is what it is for. I'd rather be drinking beer and watching the flames through the glass.


----------



## TheBigIron

Hey guys,

With all of the above being said.  Should I take my Tundra back or start my install??  Advice needed..  Thanks.  As it sits its still in my garage...

Thanks Dave


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, I think I will wait just long enough to see how SBI handles these claims on their lifetime firebox warranty, which I'm assuming will be no problem, and then proceed, barring any new information in the meantime that complicates things.


----------



## bpwelding2005

i think brenndatomu said it best, if your not in a rush to install give me a week or so 2 hear what SBI says about the issue and ill repost anything i hear as soon as i hear back from them.


----------



## TheBigIron

Thanks guys.  Curious as to know if its a certain lot number that have these issues or certain serial number set, or has that information become available?  Where would I look for the serial number on my particular furnace, or is it in the operating instruction packet?  Thanks again...

Dave


----------



## brenndatomu

Build date and ser # is on the safety info stickers, top of the blower housing.

I know this would void their warranty, but I just wonder if these cracks could be welded up. The cracks have relieved some of the stress, so maybe drill a hole at the end of the crack to stop it, and then weld 'er up? I dunno, I'm not a professional welder, I just play one at work


----------



## TheBigIron

I actually was thinking about that too?  I'm an expert only at breathing!

Thanks
Dave


----------



## j7art2

Interesting, as I was set on buying a Tundra until now. If I'm going to replace my 40 year old pre-EPA unit however, it damn well better last me another 40 years. Like most homesteaders, I'm perfectly capable of welding, however most of us don't have 240 plugs in our basements.


----------



## Buzz Saw

Wisneaky said:


> I could honestly careless where the parts come from. Who has time to nitpick the hundreds of different parts on a stove or furnace and figure out where each part is made. As long as it works and heats my house, that is what it is for. I'd rather be drinking beer and watching the flames through the glass.


If you don't care why mention where the furnace is made in the first place?


----------



## Wisneaky

Buzz Saw said:


> If you don't care why mention where the furnace is made in the first place?


I brought it up because everyone was saying this and that is made in China and this and that is made in the U.S. Maybe I brought it up just to piss you off. Not like I care about that either.


----------



## Buzz Saw

j7art2 said:


> Interesting, as I was set on buying a Tundra until now. If I'm going to replace my 40 year old pre-EPA unit however, it damn well better last me another 40 years. Like most homesteaders, I'm perfectly capable of welding, however most of us don't have 240 plugs in our basements.


Most people do have them in the kitchen or laundry room.  Heck it wouldn't take much to put a 240v recepticle in the basement if your electrical panel is in the basement. Short run of conduit, 4x4 box, recepticle, breaker,wire and you're done. Sure would be easier than hauling th e furnace out of the basement.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Wisneaky said:


> I could honestly careless where the parts come from. Who has time to nitpick the hundreds of different parts on a stove or furnace and figure out where each part is made. As long as it works and heats my house, that is what it is for. I'd rather be drinking beer and watching the flames through the glass.



Its the thinking and attitudes like this that is weakening America. Be American, buy American.


----------



## Buzz Saw

Wisneaky said:


> I brought it up because everyone was saying this and that is made in China and this and that is made in the U.S. Maybe I brought it up just to piss you off. Not like I care about that either.


Easy does it. No cyber fighting for me. Go pick a fight somewhere else.


----------



## Wisneaky

STIHLY DAN said:


> Its the thinking and attitudes like this that is weakening America. Be American, buy American.


Because everyone has the time and money to research products? Of course I'd buy a Kuuma if I could afford it. Must be nice to be rich and afford everything you want. Unfortunately most people can't afford everything.


----------



## DoubleB

The46Zone said:


> Should I take my Tundra back or start my install??



I agree with the others, I'd just sit tight and see how this plays out.  Probably not going to burn much more wood before October anyways.  BPwelding, thanks for taking this on and sharing with the rest of us.



brenndatomu said:


> I know this would void their warranty, but I just wonder if these cracks could be welded up. The cracks have relieved some of the stress, so maybe drill a hole at the end of the crack to stop it, and then weld 'er up? I dunno, I'm not a professional welder, I just play one at work



Yea I wondered the same theory.  I'm not sure how well that would work.  Drilling a hole would be helpful, but then I'd wonder if welding it over would just obviate the stress distribution the circular hole might otherwise provide.  Of course some stress has already relieved, but I suspect there is probably more where that came from.  I guess we'll see how this plays out...


----------



## Wisneaky

As for the cracks on mine. I sent an email to SBI and I called one of the techs there also. He said someone would be getting back to me shortly.


----------



## TheBigIron

Appreciate you guys getting the ball rolling on these issues.  My serial number is 1432 so Ill be interested to hear if SBI received a defective order of steel like bpwelding2005 had mentioned in an earlier post..


----------



## Wisneaky

The46Zone said:


> Appreciate you guys getting the ball rolling on these issues.  My serial number is 1432 so Ill be interested to hear if SBI received a defective order of steel like bpwelding2005 had mentioned in an earlier post..


Hopefully it was just a bad batch.


----------



## DoubleB

Wisneaky said:


> Hopefully it was just a bad batch.



I don't know the typical batch size, but if so that's a lot of metal.  At least 500 serial numbers between yours (3xx) and mine (8xx).  If FIFO material.  Hopefully you're right.


----------



## Wisneaky

DoubleB said:


> I don't know the typical batch size, but if so that's a lot of metal.  At least 500 serial numbers between yours (3xx) and mine (8xx).  If FIFO material.  Hopefully you're right.


Hopefully they have it figured out. They seem to be good at fixing things that have come up.


----------



## TheBigIron

Rick Carrigan's #38 post on AS stated that SBI replaced his unit, so at least they stand behind their product.  Hopefully they take can do the proper research on it and figure out what is causing this...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Wisneaky said:


> Because everyone has the time and money to research products? Of course I'd buy a Kuuma if I could afford it. Must be nice to be rich and afford everything you want. Unfortunately most people can't afford everything.



Ist off, I never mentioned the word Kuuma in this entire thread. 2nd, if someone is going to make an educated purchase of an item that cost a lot of money to them, then yes they would put in the time. Ergo the phrase ( Educated purchase) This also does not cost money. But if you have furnace envy over not being (rich), you could support your neighbors and countrymen, by investing in them. Which will bring more/better jobs  and wages, then you too can be (rich). Or just whore yourself to the lowest bidder and support another country and be as you are.


----------



## Wisneaky

STIHLY DAN said:


> Ist off, I never mentioned the word Kuuma in this entire thread. 2nd, if someone is going to make an educated purchase of an item that cost a lot of money to them, then yes they would put in the time. Ergo the phrase ( Educated purchase) This also does not cost money. But if you have furnace envy over not being (rich), you could support your neighbors and countrymen, by investing in them. Which will bring more/better jobs  and wages, then you too can be (rich). Or just whore yourself to the lowest bidder and support another country and be as you are.


This is a Tundra thread. Unless you have any input on the Tundra than this thread probably isn't for you.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Wisneaky said:


> This is a Tundra thread. Unless you have any input on the Tundra than this thread probably isn't for you.



Your right. I should just bury my head in the sand and not pay attention to what's going on. Or make a comment about being surprised china made anything good. If you read everyone of my posts in this thread there is not one negative statement about this furnace from me. I have a wood furnace, so a thread about a wood furnace IS for me. Not that I care what anyone (especially commies) thinks what "probably isn't for me"


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> Lets try to keep this more or less on topic and pizzin contest/product bashing free so as to keep this thread open, helpful, and ongoing for everybody.


Post #1...

Kuuma owners been pokin the bear a bit here lately...n the bear is lil cranky from findin out his canukistan made honey pot is crackin up.

Also, I did a lil reading in the big Tundra thread over on AS, post #183 from Fyrebug.."We buy next to nothing from China" ... so it would appear this problem is not from cheap chinese steel


----------



## Wisneaky

STIHLY DAN said:


> Your right. I should just bury my head in the sand and not pay attention to what's going on. Or make a comment about being surprised china made anything good. If you read everyone of my posts in this thread there is not one negative statement about this furnace from me. I have a wood furnace, so a thread about a wood furnace IS for me. Not that I care what anyone (especially commies) thinks what "probably isn't for me"


First off we don't know if they used China, U.S., or even Canadian parts. You haven't contributed one relevant post to this thread. This thread was on topic until your comment.

Go read the first post. Here is part of it in case you can't find it. Lets try to keep this more or less on topic and pizzin contest/product bashing free so as to keep this thread open, helpful, and ongoing for everybody.


----------



## TheBigIron

The bottom line is that SBI is standing by their product so that should make everyone that has a Tundra happy.


----------



## DoubleB

Brennatomu started a good thread, let's keep it that way.

If I need to defend myself online, hopefully it's by having earned respect from helpful or positive posts.  If so, I don't have any use for putting others down.  Food for thought...


----------



## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> You haven't contributed one relevant post to this thread. This thread was on topic until your comment.


Come on now...play nice.  Us air scorchers hafta stick together, the stove guys think we are weirdo basement dwellers, the indoor boiler guys think we are full of hot air  , the OWB guys ignore us cuz, well, they are just mad we can stoke the fire in our underwear! I personally vote Stihly in based on being a fellow scorcher and he (normally) adds valuable HVAC knowledge. (even though he's one of them non-chimney-cleaning Kuuma owners...)


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu said:


> Come on now...play nice.  Us air scorchers hafta stick together, the stove guys think we are weirdo basement dwellers, the indoor boiler guys think we are full of hot air  , the OWB guys ignore us cuz, well, they are just mad we can stoke the fire in our underwear! I personally vote Stihly in based on being a fellow scorcher and he (normally) adds valuable HVAC knowledge. (even though he's one of them non-chimney-cleaning Kuuma owners...)




How appropriate I read this in my underwear while sitting in my basement


----------



## BrotherBart

brenndatomu said:


> Come on now...play nice.



Good advice.


----------



## BrotherBart

Meanwhile back at the Tundra...


----------



## Smoke Signals

Hello, my name is Levi and I didn't know that my Tundra had a crack problem. I mean I had my suspicions, it wold come home late at night smelling of hedge and when I asked it where it had been it would say "no where" or "don't worry about it old man" but I just thought these were normal growing pains...... ok, thats all I got but I think we all need to head over to the wood shed and have a cold one. Chill out and warm up splitting some wood! First one's on me


----------



## bpwelding2005

hey guys i wasnt trying to start a p*ssing match about whos stove is better. Just wanted the word to get around to look the stoves over so that if this was just a problem with a certain batch of stoves they all could be found and brought to SBI's attention. just seems like everyone i have talked to have said "well oi never noticed that on my stove, but ill have to take a closer look" and then they come back and say "son of gun, now that i looked closely mines doin that to". i feel that SBI will take care of the affected stoves properly with out much fuss from what ive red about there customer support. but only time will tell.


----------



## brenndatomu

bpwelding2005 said:


> hey guys i wasnt trying to start a p*ssing match about whos stove is better.


Meh, no worries, its been along winter, natives are just gettin restless, it happens. Appreciate the heads up!


----------



## bpwelding2005

cabin fever is a real problem this time of year everywhere


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu said:


> Meh, no worries, its been along winter, natives are just gettin restless, it happens. Appreciate the heads up!




Agreed, A good bit of info to have out there, have not ever received my Tundra yet but will be watching out for this now.


----------



## j7art2

Here's a question/comment: Simply replacing the unit isn't good enough in my opinion. I know this sounds brash, but if I hire a company to come in and install my unit to the tune of $800+, and there is a failure, I don't have the knowledge, know how, ability, whatever. to swap a 530lb unit, and though all of the piping is there and ran correctly, for those incapable of doing so, are they plan on paying for a second install as well? After all, this failure is not my problem, and when I pay for professional install for a faulty unit, I'm certainly not going to pay for a second one.


----------



## Smoke Signals

Or worse yet the replacement model does the same thing. I would hope the problem is addressed  and fixed (if it has not been already) before they send out any replacements.


----------



## bpwelding2005

oh believe me I'm not looking forward to having to change out the unit if that's the case i have a old farm house with a narrow stair case with a 90* turn half way down. ended up taking half the stairs out and sticking a 20ft I beam mounted on front of my CTL in threw a window across from the stairs. this way we could use a chain hoist and pick it up and lower it straight down from the first floor to the basement.






  stairs out






 beam in place






 next stop basement






 yes this was not trick photos this really happened lol


----------



## brenndatomu

j7art2 said:


> Here's a question/comment: Simply replacing the unit isn't good enough in my opinion. I know this sounds brash, but if I hire a company to come in and install my unit to the tune of $800+, and there is a failure, I don't have the knowledge, know how, ability, whatever. to swap a 530lb unit, and though all of the piping is there and ran correctly, for those incapable of doing so, are they plan on paying for a second install as well? After all, this failure is not my problem, and when I pay for professional install for a faulty unit, I'm certainly not going to pay for a second one.


If you read the warranty it covers labor on the firebox for 3 years...


----------



## 3fordasho

Just checked mine, no cracks - Sept 16, 2014 build date, serial in the high 1340's  (don't remember last digit)   Installed late in November, heating 3400 sq ft since.    I did add a flue temperature monitoring device, it shuts the damper when temps hit 625F, don't know if this would have an effect on the cracking issue, but it could. 

 I do know that without this added device,  the heat load of this house the thermostat would continuously call for heat and the tundra would get HOT until the high limit tripped. 

I bought a 2nd one for one of my outbuildings just a few weeks ago, the last Menards 11% off the $1399 sale price- still on the pallet but was surprised to find it had the same build date and a lower serial number - 1342.   I guess Menards inventory is not first in first out.


----------



## bpwelding2005

3fordasho said:


> Just checked mine, no cracks - Sept 16, 2014 build date, serial in the high 1340's  (don't remember last digit)   Installed late in November, heating 3400 sq ft since.    I did add a flue temperature monitoring device, it shuts the damper when temps hit 625F, don't know if this would have an effect on the cracking issue, but it could.
> 
> I do know that without this added device,  the heat load of this house the thermostat would continuously call for heat and the tundra would get HOT until the high limit tripped.
> 
> I bought a 2nd one for one of my outbuildings just a few weeks ago, the last Menards 11% off the $1399 sale price- still on the pallet but was surprised to find it had the same build date and a lower serial number - 1342.   I guess Menards inventory is not first in first out.



i like the idea of the flue temp monitoring device, any idea where you got yours from? was it easy to install?


----------



## 3fordasho

bpwelding2005 said:


> i like the idea of the flue temp monitoring device, any idea where you got yours from? was it easy to install?




I'll have to detail it and post it up some time- but still in the process of prepping my old house to sell.
Basically it's a J-type thermocouple ($30) from Mcmaster mounted in the double wall connector pipe about 12" above the furnace exit.
Thermocouple is connected to a relay output temperature controller from Omega engineering ($95).  I wired it so the normally closed relay contact is in series with the existing high temp limit, when the control reaches it's set point (625F- it's adjustable) it opens the contact, thus closing the draft door.   It reopens it once the temp drops to 425F (also adjustable via hysteresis setting).    I love the control - I can throw a load of wood in and forget about it....


----------



## bpwelding2005

sounds like a awesome set up


----------



## 3fordasho

bpwelding2005 said:


> sounds like a awesome set up



Forgot to mention the draft door only re-opens if something else has closed the thermostat connections - either a thermostat calling for heat, or as many of us have added - a timer for reloads or cold starts.   (typically a "hot tub timer" wired in parallel with the thermostat)  Mine is 0-60 minutes and I set it to 15mn on a re-load on a hot bed of coals, or 30mn+ for a cold start.


----------



## bpwelding2005

ya i already have a timer wired in, I'm not great with electrical controls but have a rough idea of how your system must be set up. but if you ever get caught up and have a chance a diagram of how its all hooked up would be awesome. not worried about trying to duplicate your system anymore this heating season but would like to have it set up for fall. i googled the components you used and found a great thermal-couple but have no idea what controller would be the right one, so if u could include a model, part #, or even a link would be awesome for the controller.  thanks in advance


----------



## 3fordasho

bpwelding2005 said:


> ya i already have a timer wired in, I'm not great with electrical controls but have a rough idea of how your system must be set up. but if you ever get caught up and have a chance a diagram of how its all hooked up would be awesome. not worried about trying to duplicate your system anymore this heating season but would like to have it set up for fall. i googled the components you used and found a great thermal-couple but have no idea what controller would be the right one, so if u could include a model, part #, or even a link would be awesome for the controller.  thanks in advance





Mcmaster #3871K52 thermocouple  www.mcmaster.com

Omega engineering # CN418V-R1-R2  temp controller

This temp controller also has relayed alarm output which I have utilized the low temperature alarm to open the draft door if the flue temps drop below an adjustable setting - currently have mine set to trip at 245F flue temp or lower - what I use this for is to help reduce coal build up, and I also find it reduces the incidence of "backpuffs" that tend to make the house smell like smoke.   I think it also reduces the possibility of creosote build up - before I installed it I had one "Cool" burn that liquid creosote dripped out the flue exit onto the filter box - nothing since I've installed the additional control.

I can mark up a tundra wiring diagram to show how I hooked things in - if you don't see it in a month or so send me a PM to remind me...


----------



## bpwelding2005

sounds great 3fordashow, thanks for everything


----------



## Wisneaky

This is the response I received so far from SBI.

In order to have a thorough case file, we will require some additional information. A copy of the proof of purchase. The dimensions of your residence, a description of your chimney (length and diameter) and the ducting. We will also require photos of the cracks and the environment surrounding the furnace including the duct work.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Wisneaky said:


> This is the response I received so far from SBI.
> 
> In order to have a thorough case file, we will require some additional information. A copy of the proof of purchase. The dimensions of your residence, a description of your chimney (length and diameter) and the ducting. We will also require photos of the cracks and the environment surrounding the furnace including the duct work.



Looks like you guys may have to get your hula hoops out, unfortunately.


----------



## BrotherBart

Not unreasonable if there isn't a dealer involved to come out and collect information for the claim.

You should see what you have to do for a claim on roof shingle warranties.


----------



## DoubleB

j7art2 said:


> Here's a question/comment: Simply replacing the unit isn't good enough in my opinion. I know this sounds brash, but if I hire a company to come in and install my unit to the tune of $800+, and there is a failure, I don't have the knowledge, know how, ability, whatever. to swap a 530lb unit, and though all of the piping is there and ran correctly, for those incapable of doing so, are they plan on paying for a second install as well? After all, this failure is not my problem, and when I pay for professional install for a faulty unit, I'm certainly not going to pay for a second one.



Good point.  I don't see this being fun for anyone involved.  But from the looks of some installs (mine included), at least it might not disturb much to replace the furnace.  For mine, I'll disconnect the 8" outlets, pull the drives slips from the return air, take off the chimney connector, and then she's on the loose.  At least that's a lot less effort than the initial install.  Getting it up the stairs and onto the truck is my biggest challenge.  Which leads to...




bpwelding2005 said:


> oh believe me I'm not looking forward to having to change out the unit if that's the case i have a old farm house with a narrow stair case with a 90* turn half way down. ended up taking half the stairs out and sticking a 20ft I beam mounted on front of my CTL in threw a window across from the stairs. this way we could use a chain hoist and pick it up and lower it straight down from the first floor to the basement.



You, sir, are a determined individual.  Very nice.  It's people like you that make this country great.  If you can get a furnace in/out, then I should figure out a way too.

Especially since you only live 30 minutes away...


----------



## DoubleB

Smoke Signals said:


> Or worse yet the replacement model does the same thing. I would hope the problem is addressed and fixed (if it has not been already) before they send out any replacements.



These are going to be my biggest questions.  As the previous post, ideally these problems shouldn't happen, but if they do my best option is to put as much effort to make things right as I expect SBI will.  However, I don't plan to receive a replacement until it's obvious why the problem will not recur.  We'll see.


----------



## bpwelding2005

well by the time we got around to installing the furnace the basement was full of wood so it had to go lol. Cant see paying for heating when my family owns 120ac of woods so the wood is free just gota put in the effort


----------



## Wisneaky

I got a reply back from SBI. These crazy @ss people want me to return the furnace to Menards and they will ship a replacement there for me. I'm not pulling it out. They can send someone to my house to replace it.


----------



## bpwelding2005

wonder why they want it returned to menards? wouldn't think it would be worth there money to ship it all the way back to there factory.


----------



## David_QC

3fordasho said:


> Mcmaster #3871K52 thermocouple  www.mcmaster.com
> 
> Omega engineering # CN418V-R1-R2  temp controller
> 
> This temp controller also has relayed alarm output which I have utilized the low temperature alarm to open the draft door if the flue temps drop below an adjustable setting - currently have mine set to trip at 245F flue temp or lower - what I use this for is to help reduce coal build up, and I also find it reduces the incidence of "backpuffs" that tend to make the house smell like smoke.   I think it also reduces the possibility of creosote build up - before I installed it I had one "Cool" burn that liquid creosote dripped out the flue exit onto the filter box - nothing since I've installed the additional control.
> 
> I can mark up a tundra wiring diagram to show how I hooked things in - if you don't see it in a month or so send me a PM to remind me...




I think that this would work:


Tundra Input1 --------|NO|-- (Out of the Controller)---| |-- (Your Thermostat)---To Tundra input 2


Tundra Input1 --------|NC|-- (Alarm of the Controller)--------------------------------To Tundra input 2
                                                                                                                                                           (Lot of editing trouble here with my wire symbols   you can go with 1 wire to tundra inputs, was only easier to write...)                                                                                                                                       

The controller OUT must be set to heat for the maximum of the temp flue you want, let say 450F (with an 100F degree hysteresys or some kind of programation control for it to not On and Off rapidly near the 450F value) The damper will be open as long as it does'nt reach 450F and the Tstat is demanding heat. If 450F is reached, it will close the damper until 350F (hysteresys) and open again

The controller Alarm must be set to 250F, it will open the damper until it reach 250F, regardless of the Tstat.

I think I will try this controller next winter, my wife doesn't care about creosote and all wood burning parameter... you know !


----------



## 3fordasho

Looks very similar to what I have.  I use a 625F set point for max flue temp with a 200F hysteresis setting so damper closes when it hits 625F and re-opens at 425F  (assuming the thermostat or timer have closed the thermostat contacts on the back of the Tundra)

625F is just a number that I think is plenty safe for a flue temp but hot enough to allow good secondary action to get established. 
The hysteresis is set at the max my temp control allows (up to 200F) to prevent to much opening/closing of the damper and undue wear on the damper motor.

Same deal with the low temp alarm, 245F is just a number I picked and set a fairly large hysteresis value for this one as well. (I think 100f so the alarm will go off at 345F)

I do have a thermostat connected but have it set to never call for heat (the propane furnace will kick on before) because I prefer to let the tundra operate in it's most efficient mode (damper closed) and let the secondaries do their job.    The flue temp control does a wonderful job if flue temps get to hot or cool.

The only issue I've had is the Tundra damper door sometimes sticks partially open - need to pull that apart and see what is up mechanically with it.





David_QC said:


> I think that this would work:
> 
> 
> Tundra Input1 --------|NO|-- (Out of the Controller)---| |-- (Your Thermostat)---To Tundra input 2
> 
> 
> Tundra Input1 --------|NC|-- (Alarm of the Controller)--------------------------------To Tundra input 2
> (Lot of editing trouble here with my wire symbols   you can go with 1 wire to tundra inputs, was only easier to write...)
> 
> The controller OUT must be set to heat for the maximum of the temp flue you want, let say 450F (with an 100F degree hysteresys or some kind of programation control for it to not On and Off rapidly near the 450F value) The damper will be open as long as it does'nt reach 450F and the Tstat is demanding heat. If 450F is reached, it will close the damper until 350F (hysteresys) and open again
> 
> The controller Alarm must be set to 250F, it will open the damper until it reach 250F, regardless of the Tstat.
> 
> I think I will try this controller next winter, my wife doesn't care about creosote and all wood burning parameter... you know !


----------



## bpwelding2005

im not sure if this would work but thought when i set mine up i would leave my timer hooked directly to the back of my tundra but then hook my thermostat into the temp controller so it could close the damper even if the t-stat is calling for heat. I just feel like when my t stat calls for a good amount of heat i lose to much heat up the chimney. sure it would take longer for the temp in the house to rise but that would be fine with me to get more heat out of each load of wood. But maybe im looking at this all wrong, wouldn't be the first time or the last lol.


----------



## 3fordasho

works for me!  I have the timer, thermostat, and low temp alarm contacts all hooked in parallel to the terminals on the back of the tundra.  Any one or combination of them can open the damper door.

I just set the thermostat to a low set point because with my 3400 square feet in Minnesota  (too much for the tundra) it would call for heat half of the heating season.   I just let my tundra cruise in secondary mode (damper closed) and fire up my Progress hybrid wood stove if I need more heat. (typically anything below 10F outside)

My heating load really calls for something like a max caddy or Kuuma 100, but the Tundra got me off the propane with a short lead time. 
First fill on the 500g propane tank still at 60%  




bpwelding2005 said:


> im not sure if this would work but thought when i set mine up i would leave my timer hooked directly to the back of my tundra but then hook my thermostat into the temp controller so it could close the damper even if the t-stat is calling for heat. I just feel like when my t stat calls for a good amount of heat i lose to much heat up the chimney. sure it would take longer for the temp in the house to rise but that would be fine with me to get more heat out of each load of wood. But maybe im looking at this all wrong, wouldn't be the first time or the last lol.


----------



## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> I got a reply back from SBI. These crazy @ss people want me to return the furnace to Menards and they will ship a replacement there for me. I'm not pulling it out. They can send someone to my house to replace it.


Hmm, that may not work out for ya, maybe they say, "fine, keep your cracked furnace, cheaper/easier for us anyways" ...dunno? It will be interesting to see how they handle things for these other guys...


----------



## DoubleB

If SBI is providing replacement furnaces, I believe they have a right to make sure the old ones aren't being repurposed for a profit.  If Menards is a trusted agent to ensure they are properly retired, then that's fine with me.  If SBI can receive them and learn how to fix the problem, even better (and appropriate).  

I knew a girl who asked me to bust up her Pampered Chef pizza stone.  Hers had chipped, lifetime warranty, but the company asked her to bust up and mail back the old one, their policy to make sure the free replacement policy isn't abused.

Not saying any of us are content with cracked furnaces, but there is a reason.

As for pulling in/out of the basement and transporting to/from Menards, yep it would be a pain if that's what they do with mine.  I'll cross that bridge when I get there.


----------



## DoubleB

3fordasho said:


> he only issue I've had is the Tundra damper door sometimes sticks partially open - need to pull that apart and see what is up mechanically with it.



Mine did that too.  The problem was under the cover on the front of the furnace.  The rod that connects from the actuator at the rear, has a hook in the front that connects to the damper.  The hook angle was too tight and would latch onto the damper and cinch it open a little.  Easy fix, but your problem might be different.

You'll notice that front cover has two screws, into the 3/16" steel.  I think between the steel thickness, and the high temps and heat cycles, one of the screwheads busted off instead of reversed out.  Just a caution if that helps you remove them tenderly.

Good luck!


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> If Menards is a trusted agent to ensure they are properly retired,


Maybe Menards as a dealer is on the hook for the transportation/logistics for major warranty claims like this? 
Thinking about it...doesn't it seem strange that Menards has had these things big time on sale for something like 6 weeks now?
Menards over bought inventory? Or maybe Drolet over built Tundra inventory, then made a special deal with Menards to liquidate? Or...? Maybe I'm over thinking it, after all, the big M _is_ the home of unbelievable deals...


----------



## Wisneaky

They did tell me the cracking issues have been taken care of with the newer furnaces. They didn't tell me what the issue was though.


----------



## BrotherBart

It is in every stove warranty out there that you are on the hook for return transportation. Why I advise people that are buying a wood stove from a dealer to get the dealer to put in writing that they will do the swap if they want the check. Up front. My first Englander 30 had a big defect. They were going to ship one to a freight terminal here and me take the busted one with me to the terminal. I opted to just drive the 143 miles down to their plant to swap. Didn't want a freight damaged one and wanted to see the plant and meet them.

I have to wonder why SBI isn't contacting owners and having them check for cracks.


----------



## DoubleB

Wisneaky said:


> They did tell me the cracking issues have been taken care of with the newer furnaces. They didn't tell me what the issue was though.



Hmmph.  I believe you.  I haven't made it that far yet in discussion with them.  If they say they corrected the cracking issues, then I am looking forward to them answering my questions quite thoroughly as to the cause and solution that will mean a removal and 2nd installation will be the end of that for numerous years.


----------



## Wisneaky

BrotherBart said:


> It is in every stove warranty out there that you are on the hook for return transportation. Why I advise people that are buying a wood stove from a dealer to get the dealer to put in writing that they will do the swap if they want the check. Up front. My first Englander 30 had a big defect. They were going to ship one to a freight terminal here and me take the busted one with me to the terminal. I opted to just drive the 143 miles down to their plant to swap. Didn't want a freight damaged one and wanted to see the plant and meet them.
> 
> I have to wonder why SBI isn't contacting owners and having them check for cracks.


SBI hasn't contacted any owners regarding past issues either like the ash pan door fix, updated front damper, relocated fan and high limit. Probably trying to save some money.


----------



## bpwelding2005

so its clear they new about the problem for some time if the issue has been addressed but would of been nice if they contacted all stoves in a certain ser # range to let people to keep a eye on them b4 there could be a serious malfunction. suppose though the less people that notice the cracks the less stoves they will have to replace and more money in there pockets.


----------



## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> They did tell me the cracking issues have been taken care of with the newer furnaces. They didn't tell me what the issue was though.


Boy...I don't quite know what to think about that... sissies Tundra was built about the same time as DoubleBs...obviously not in the "fixed" group. I don't suppose they would ever divulge the exact serial # range...I already put the Yukon in for her...now the Tundra...man, I'd hate to hafta do it all a third time! She does have outside basement access at least


----------



## DoubleB

Actually, I give them credit that they contacted me 4 weeks after initial purchase to check my snap disk because they had a bad batch.  I checked, yep faulty, they sent a new one.  I hadn't even registered the furnace yet and they tracked me down.  

I've had good experiences with them so far and don't expect this to be different.

That said, I agree (especially based on their initiative on my snap disk) that they should have alerted people if they claim to know this is a problem.


----------



## Wisneaky

brenndatomu said:


> Boy...I don't quite know what to think about that... sissies Tundra was built about the same time as DoubleBs...obviously not in the "fixed" group. I don't suppose they would ever divulge the exact serial # range...I already put the Yukon in for her...now the Tundra...man, I'd hate to hafta do it all a third time! She does have outside basement access at least


I've wondered for some time of they even know what's going on with things. When I contacted them about the ash pan fix they told me it didn't effect my serial number, but sent me a diagram and told me to double check. I checked and mine didn't have the ash pan fix installed so they sent me the kit. Also every single time I contact them they ask for the same info again. Its like really how many times do I need to send you my receipt.


----------



## bpwelding2005

all i can say is good thing for sites like this so at least some of us know whats going on and so they couldn't act like we must of done something wrong to our furnaces because they never heard of this problem b4 lol. You guys wouldn't believe how many times i seem to be that guys that has the only one that the manufacturer seen fail that way lol.


----------



## brenndatomu

bpwelding2005 said:


> You guys wouldn't believe how many times i seem to be that guys that has the only one that the manufacturer seen fail that way lol.


You too, huh?


----------



## brenndatomu

I'm thinking I'll email SBI, see what they have to say about my predicament...they can't anymore than say "Put it in, it's under warranty, we'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it"


----------



## DoubleB

I think we're getting closer to wanting to verify the "cause" and "solution" story ourselves.  

I'm not stalking anyone, and I'm not completely OCD, but I've compiled information that people have provided so far in this thread that might be relevant.  I already notice some popular locations for cracks.  Anyone feel free to add to or update this information, if you think that would help.  Let's see if we can learn anything.


BPWelding2005:
serial 3xx, late 2013, 1 winter burning
cracks:
cleanout door bottom right
cleanout door bottom left
loading door bottom right
loading door bottom left

BPWelding2005’s friend#1:
1 winter burning, with cracks

BPWelding2005’s friend#2:
1 winter burning, with cracks

DoubleB:
Serial 8xx, June 2014, 1 winter burning
cracks:
cleanout door bottom right
cleanout door bottom left
loading door bottom right
loading door bottom left

Wisneaky:
Serial 2xx-3xx, date?, #winters?
cracks:
cleanout door bottom right
cleanout door bottom left
cleanout door welds bottomside
loading door top left
loading door bottom left
loading door bottom right
one or two more cracks that I can't make out the location

Brenndatomu sister:
Serial 923, June 2014, New in box

The46Zone:
Serial 1432, New in box

3fordasho:
Serial 134x, sept 16, 2014, 1 winter heating
No cracks found


----------



## Buzz Saw

Wisneaky said:


> They did tell me the cracking issues have been taken care of with the newer furnaces. They didn't tell me what the issue was though.


I wonder what the cut off serial number is.  Think they would share that information?


----------



## Smoke Signals

DoubleB said:


> I think we're getting closer to wanting to verify the "cause" and "solution" story ourselves.
> 
> I'm not stalking anyone, and I'm not completely OCD, but I've compiled information that people have provided so far in this thread that might be relevant.  I already notice some popular locations for cracks.  Anyone feel free to add to or update this information, if you think that would help.  Let's see if we can learn anything.
> 
> 
> BPWelding2005:
> serial 3xx, late 2013, 1 winter burning
> cracks:
> cleanout door bottom right
> cleanout door bottom left
> loading door bottom right
> loading door bottom left
> 
> BPWelding2005’s friend#1:
> 1 winter burning, with cracks
> 
> BPWelding2005’s friend#2:
> 1 winter burning, with cracks
> 
> DoubleB:
> Serial 8xx, June 2014, 1 winter burning
> cracks:
> cleanout door bottom right
> cleanout door bottom left
> loading door bottom right
> loading door bottom left
> 
> Wisneaky:
> Serial 2xx-3xx, date?, #winters?
> cracks:
> cleanout door bottom right
> cleanout door bottom left
> cleanout door welds bottomside
> loading door top left
> loading door bottom left
> loading door bottom right
> one or two more cracks that I can't make out the location
> 
> Brenndatomu sister:
> Serial 923, June 2014, New in box
> 
> The46Zone:
> Serial 1432, New in box
> 
> 3fordasho:
> Serial 134x, sept 16, 2014, 1 winter heating
> No cracks found




I will have on new in box to add tomorrow.


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> I wonder what the cut off serial number is.  Think they would share that information?


I really doubt they would, that's kinda admitting that they know they have a problem, and, that they know exactly which ones are affected. They would almost be obligated to replace them all at that point.


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## bpwelding2005

finally remembered to check my ser # and mfg date. ser # 632   mfg date 10/29/13


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## DoubleB

I emailed my installation and duct details to SBI and only asked how they suggested we proceed.  They gave me a very brief email reply today.  They said my installation looks good, they would refund the Tundra purchase price, the Tundra is too small for my house, and suggested I get a larger furnace instead.

I have 2100 sqft ft evenly split between 2 stories.  My 1050 sq ft basement is unheated.  I went through 5 cords of box elder and basswood this winter, let's say thats 4 cords of actual firewood, so I can't imagine my heat load is excessive.  And 50 gallons of LP, mostly in October.  Tundra worked just fine (I thought).

I must say I wasn't expecting their reply.  

Are they implying the cracking is related to my house size?  If so, then heads up folks because I would bet a lot of you have Tundras in larger houses that use more than 4 cords per winter.  And spent less than I did making it easier to refund your purchase.  They list >60,000 Btu/hr avg heat output, which is about what my house takes on a bad day.  If I take their refund and buy another Tundra, does that mean that they wouldn't honor that next warranty?  If they would honor it, then why not just give me a replacement and keep a customer?  Either way, it raises weird questions.

If they are not implying the cracking is related to house size, then does their offer to refund my money suggest they don't have confidence in the Tundras off their line to be a replacement, as they have offered to replace for Wisneaky and others?  Then why sell Tundras at all?

I don't get it.  

Initially I was dreading having to haul a furnace in/out of my basement.  Now, it's worse because I am wondering if I actually should get a different furnace.  If so, that is a significant cost adder and duct changes, not to mention that I installed a whole separate duct system (and holes in the house) just for the Tundra that I might have done much differently for a different furnace, all in addition to hauling furnaces in/out of the basement.  I accept the reality that cost is what it is and maybe I need to spend more for a furnace, but I don't like doing everything I can to cover the details and then, once I commit, other parties changing their story.

I don't expect SBI to solve all of my problems, there's always some uncertainty the homeowner must bear.  But I have a lot of thinking to do to about how to respond because my questions above have me a bit paranoid about what they're really doing.

What do you guys see in this?


----------



## bpwelding2005

just a lil fyi. my uncle has been talking to SBI alot this winter because he had all kinds of problems getting the heat from the tundra threw the ducts in his house so he ended up putting a bigger blower on. but SBI told him they were coming out with a larger tundra some time rather soon maybe in time for next heating season. i know if i could i would gladly up grade to a larger tundra if the cost isnt to much extra. my guess would be a tundraized version of the max caddy. maybe this would be a better route for you double b if the really do have a larger burner in the works.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> ...What do you guys see in this?


Yeah...that's a real head scratcher. Sounds like you need to ask them some of these questions before deciding how to proceed.
Sounds like you have a pretty low heat load for a house of that size. Their reply is just so strange...if they were happy with your install, how could the size of the house mean diddly?! Either it kept the house warm or it didn't! It'd be different if yours cracking was the first one they ever heard of...but they hafta know they have a real problem by now.
Sorry, I don't have any good advise for ya right now, other than maybe investigating this bigger model that bp mentioned. I heard some scuttlebutt here somewhere recently about a bigger one too.
BTW, did you email or call them? I sent them an email last night, haven't heard back yet. I used the "contact us" on their website, filled out a form for more info on their product that I already own, and then wrote a paragraph or so about my predicament and asked for advise on how they would recommend to proceed from here.


----------



## DoubleB

bpwelding2005 said:


> SBI told him they were coming out with a larger tundra some time rather soon



Thanks for the heads-up BP, I hadn't heard that.  I'll keep an eye out, but of course have mounting questions that I would have to ask them about a larger Tundra too.  Oh, and Max Caddy is 30 inches wide.  My basement stairs are 30.5 inches wide, plus a slight jog, and slanted to the side.  26" Tundra was hard enough, I'd have to have you come with your expertise to get a 30 incher down the stairs!


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> BTW, did you email or call them?



I emailed them.  I'll collect my thoughts and try to email back, but will probably get on the horn at some point.  

So in your experience does 5 cords of box elder and basswood in a winter seem reasonable for a 2100 sq ft house?  And if so, does it seem that a Tundra rated for >60,000 Btu/hr output (average) should be fine for that?  

(Last winter, on the coldest day at -40F windchill, my 80% efficient, 105,000 Btu/hr oil furnace was running 45 minutes/hr.  My math says that's 63,000 Btu/hr output, so I figured a Tundra--which is rated up to 2500 sq ft--would be fine.  I also don't mind if my LP furnace kicks on once a month.)


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> does 5 cords of box elder and basswood in a winter seem reasonable for a 2100 sq ft house


It seems reasonable to me, especially since those aren't real high btu woods
Oh, and I was confused about the size of your house...I was thinking it was 3400 sq ft


----------



## DoubleB

And, a couple times when I got it really stoking to get familiar with the furnace's limits, the hottest I could get the hot air was 135F, with low fan speeds 1 and 2.  I have never observed the high temp limit actuate (shut damper) at 160F.  I, of course, don't babysit the furnace 24/7, but I pay pretty close attention to these things.  Other than those tests, we load and burn the Tundra more gently.

In other words, I don't think I ever overfired the furnace.  It further convinces me that the "too small for your house" is neither the issue at hand, nor true.


----------



## Smoke Signals

I have on to add to the running list. New in crate ser#1469 made 9/23/14


----------



## bpwelding2005

well double b we aint tried everything to make it fit till ya slather that baby with KY and Vaseline, bet we could make that bigger burner slide down those stairs like no bodys business lol


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> They list >60,000 Btu/hr avg heat output, which is about what my house takes on a bad day.



Gotta question that rating.  Weigh your wood loads once, I think you'll be surprised.  Wood has about 6,000 BTU's per lb @20% MC.  If you load a 60lb load and it lasts 10 hours with a furnace efficiency of 70% you are averaging about 25,200BTU's/hr over that 10 hour period.  In order to achieve a 60,000 BTU's average you would burn that 60lb load in a little over 4 hours.


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> DoubleB said: ↑
> They list >60,000 Btu/hr avg heat output, which is about what my house takes on a bad day.
> Gotta question that rating. Weigh your wood loads once, I think you'll be surprised. Wood has about 6,000 BTU's per lb @20% MC. If you load a 60lb load and it lasts 10 hours with a furnace efficiency of 70% you are averaging about 25,200BTU's/hr over that 10 hour period. In order to achieve a 60,000 BTU's average you would burn that 60lb load in a little over 4 hours.



JRHAWK, I like your math for a different way to look at it, thanks for posting.  I think the variable is the 10 hours, and I think any of us would be disappointed if feeding it more frequently than 10 hours on the coldest days would be considered harsh treatment.  Indeed, when it was really cold/windy our Tundra would do a burn cycle in 4 hours as you calculate or even faster.  Of course, that was box elder which I doubt was 60 lbs.  

Regardless of heat output calculations, it still kept the house warm enough, without running full loads wide open damper, with rare help from the LP furnace.  From my research before buying it, I thought the Tundra claimed to offer just that kind of service.  But I'm open to any corrections people have for me.

Thanks,
BB


----------



## laynes69

Here is the chart from SBI. This is for the Caddy series, but this is a basic explanation. It's not 60,000 btus over the entire burn.


----------



## DoubleB

laynes69 said:


> t's not 60,000 btus over the entire burn



Thanks for the graph.  It looks to me like it averages 60,000 over the entire burn.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> It's not 60,000 btus over the entire burn.


Especially not 60k for _8 hrs straight! _Maybe 40k for 5 hrs...but then, there's that word...average. (I would assume the Caddy maybe has just a bit more firepower than the Tundra...? But no matter how you slice it, Tundra should be fine for 2100 ft, SBI is the one that gave it the 2500 ft spec...now it's only...what...2000? Excuses, heck, they spec out their large size stoves (which are smaller than the Tundra) at up to 2100 ft!


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> They said my installation looks good, they would refund the Tundra purchase price, the Tundra is too small for my house, and suggested I get a larger furnace instead



If you are happy with how the tundra performed, why not take the money and have a welder repair and beef up the problem areas. After all it's just metal.


----------



## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> why not take the money and have a welder repair and beef up the problem areas.



Certainly worth considering.  I was assuming they are going to want the furnace back if I take the money.  But, they didn't say for sure, and I saw on AS that a guy didn't return his.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> If you are happy with how the tundra performed, why not take the money and have a welder repair and beef up the problem areas. After all it's just metal.


I'd be on that like flys on stink, if they would let you keep it. I have heard both ways...they just send you another one, or as wisneaky said they told him, they want him to take his back to Menards for an exchange.
I just noticed that the older Tundras have no weld in the door corners where these cracks are starting, the newer one do have weld there. Doesn't seem like that particular change helped though. Wonder what is different now?


----------



## j7art2

bpwelding2005 said:


> just a lil fyi. my uncle has been talking to SBI alot this winter because he had all kinds of problems getting the heat from the tundra threw the ducts in his house so he ended up putting a bigger blower on. but SBI told him they were coming out with a larger tundra some time rather soon maybe in time for next heating season. i know if i could i would gladly up grade to a larger tundra if the cost isnt to much extra. my guess would be a tundraized version of the max caddy. maybe this would be a better route for you double b if the really do have a larger burner in the works.




They told me the exact same thing when I emailed them on whether or not the Tundra would meet the new EPA regs.

However, if their response is to simply pull the unit and return it to Menards, I'll be damned if I'll be buying anything from the company. Because you know, a 200lb man can just up and pull a 600lb unit by himself. 10 minute job, right? 

I'm starting to think maybe I should steer toward something else. Yukon Superjack maybe? I don't know what's in the sub $3000 price range.


----------



## trx250r87

My serial number is #377 and I don't have any cracks as far as I can tell. I received the snap disk relocation kit on Friday and installed over the weekend. It has been too warm to burn but this next weekend looks like I'll get a chance to try the new setup out.

Eric


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, SBI finally got back to me today after I emailed them with questions last Thurs nite. Basically, I asked them if there was any reason to not go ahead and install "my" new Tundra since I understand they have had lots of problem with them cracking and I really want to do this only once. Here was their response...(read the 4th line, kind of gives 3fordasho's temp controller idea some cred (post #167)

"Some people did have a problems with their furnace, but what they do not tell is the way it has been installed or used.

WE found that most of problems occurred when the installation is not meeting the minimum requirements of the owner’s manual.

Having the proper air distribution, having the proper static pressure in the ducts, having the proper chimney size, length  and ‘’draft’’.

Making sure that the air damper is not staying open from the time you load until the combustion is over.

Making sure that the blower is set the proper way and in operation.

This furnace is a good residential furnace not built to heat a commercial place, not build to heat a garage also serving a house and run at full blast all the time.

There are many reasons why these furnaces have had problems.

For the very most of the time the root case was determined to be a bad installation, or usage."


----------



## Buzz Saw

"Most of the problems come from installion"  What about the rest of the problems?  Who/what is to blame?


----------



## bpwelding2005

they keep saying when people have problems with not enough heat to not worry about static pressure in the ducts and i know mine never over drafted. i like how they want to pass the blame, especially since they told someone else in a different reply that the cracking issue has been corrected. so if there mostly caused by bad instal how did they fix that????????   makes a guy wonder


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> "Most of the problems come from installion"  What about the rest of the problems?  Who/what is to blame?


I guess I was asking more so about the cracking issue, I guess they are saying it is from overheating firebox...
Seems a lil hard to buy that considering some of you guys that have cracks seemingly have the setup correct


bpwelding2005 said:


> so if there mostly caused by bad instal how did they fix that????????


Go to dealer sales/install like the Caddys? Hope not...big $


----------



## Buzz Saw

Anyone know what gauge steel is the firebox made from?


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> Anyone know what gauge steel is the firebox made from?


I just measured, it's .185", so real close to 3/16". 
Funny thing is my Yukon is much thinner steel...30 year warranty. Mine will be 30 YO this fall, no cracks


----------



## laynes69

7 gauge I believe. I checked our Caddy from the inside with no cracking. The entire firebox is protected from the heat, except for the front. That's where the problems are occuring. It's really not right to blame the homeowners, especially when the furnace must maintain high heat to burn off the gasses. I also believe the Tundras utilize the less dense firebrick which are better at insulating the walls, therefore higher temperatures for combustion. Seems they need to either beef up the front of the furnace, or Insulate it. I know on our Caddy, I won't let it burn wide open for a long period of time. If the draft is higher than necessary and the damper remains open, it turns into a blast furnace. All I can say is it's a shame, and doesn't look good on the company.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Doesn't the tundra have a high limit that will not let it overheat? Also a unit marketed for diy and blaming bad installs just seems funny. I know its not the problem because many of you have done it right, but maybe they should come with a bdr.


----------



## mlaw22

DoubleB said:


> Certainly worth considering.  I was assuming they are going to want the furnace back if I take the money.  But, they didn't say for sure, and I saw on AS that a guy didn't return his.



That was me.  Just joined this site to give any info I could.  They made me pull the foil sticker on back with the serial number on it and put it on a piece of cardboard, then send them a pic of it.  I still have the old stove.


----------



## DoubleB

Welcome mlaw22, thanks for popping in.  I remembered the essence of your post, but I didn't go back to find it or properly give you credit.


----------



## brenndatomu

mlaw22 said:


> That was me.  Just joined this site to give any info I could.  They made me pull the foil sticker on back with the serial number on it and put it on a piece of cardboard, then send them a pic of it.  I still have the old stove.


Howdy! Yeah, thanks for jumping in here. Just so everybody here is familiar, how about a lil rundown on the details of your situation. Also, did you go back to another Tundra and if so hows it doing...also build dates/ser #s if you have 'em


----------



## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> Doesn't the tundra have a high limit that will not let it overheat? Also a unit marketed for diy and blaming bad installs just seems funny. I know its not the problem because many of you have done it right, but maybe they should come with a bdr.



Yep, it does have a high limit at 160F in the top of the air jacket.  However, I can imagine the high limit might not always prevent overheating, in the case that you have plenty of airflow that would keep the jacket below 160F even if the fire is raging.

In my case, I sent copious details of my install to SBI, and they told me it looks good but that my 2100 sq ft is too big for the Tundra.  I suspect that's their way of implying I overfired the furnace and caused the cracking.  To be fair, maybe I did, maybe I didn't.  Problem is no one knows.  They don't say how to know if you have, or more importantly, what to do to avoid it.  Of course, there's probably no firm definition of overfiring for any stove.  But it sounds like they are saying that the only time the damper should be opened is startup and burning off coals.  And if so, then trouble is inevitable, especially when the manual doesn't say that, although the manual does say that you can connect it with a thermostat that can open the damper for unlimited duration without the operator even knowing.

As someone already mentioned, it can take 30+ minutes from a cold start to get the firebrick and all hot enough to close the damper, although by then the metal front with the cracks has been at steady hot temps for 10-15 minutes.  On the other hand, if you're restarting with lots of coals, you can close the damper after 10 minutes.  The difference between 10 to 30 minutes is a whole lot of time to be overfiring, if in fact that is all it takes.

This isn't a rant against SBI, just saying that I think they are finding that their design isn't forgiving enough to match their operating instructions for it, so hopefully at least one of those will improve.  

Maybe I'm too patient, but all in all they are still treating me better than many other companies would attempt, so I am still impressed with their quick willingness to refund my money without any runaround.  I can apply the cash toward whatever rectification I choose, and they said I don't need to disturb my Tundra install until whenever I am comfortable with another furnace of my choice to replace it with.  

Very inconvenient, but I can work with that.


----------



## DoubleB

laynes69 said:


> I know on our Caddy, I won't let it burn wide open for a long period of time. If the draft is higher than necessary and the damper remains open, it turns into a blast furnace.



Laynes, what do you consider "a long period of time?"  And, how much draft is "higher than necessary?"

Just curious if you have any numbers, that might provide at least one datapoint that has worked.


----------



## Buzz Saw

Lots of comparison of the Caddy's and Tundras.  Are they owned by the same parent company? I know Caddy is PSG and Tundra is Drolet,which is owned by SBI. Is PSG owned by SBI as well? 

I find it interesting they are so similar(from reading others replies). Is the Tundra a knock off by another company or an "economy" line to the Caddy? 

Or maybe I'm just over thinking this whole thing.


----------



## DoubleB

Buzz Saw said:


> Is PSG owned by SBI as well?



Yes, Drolet and PSG are both owned by SBI.



Buzz Saw said:


> "economy" line to the Caddy?


Yes, this above.  I tell my wife that instead of buying a Caddy, we bought a Chevy.  At least that's the idea.


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> Is PSG owned by SBI as well?


Yes. SBI builds quite a few different "brands" PSG, Drolet, Century, Flame, Osbourne, Enerzone, and Valcourt
Tundra was supposedly built off the Caddy platform and shares the firebox design

Edit: link to history of SBI, kinda interesting http://www.sbi-international.com/index.asp?ma=1&ms=1&mt=1 Just click "history" in the left column of this page (and english if need be, top right)


----------



## mlaw22

First serial 3## second 7##

My first one cracked towards the end of last season.  I spend the whole season cursing it trying to figure it out. Sbi answered all my calls and emails.  Tried to help a lot.   The guys on the AB site helped a lot too.  Then the cracks occurred.  Sbi stepped up send me a new unit.  I kinda didn't want to deal with a new one but I took what I could get.  It was a pain once again goin in and out of my basement.  I replaced an old us wood stove.  The new one hasn't cracked yet.  I'm pretty sure I've never over fired it.  I've had lots of little issues with both of them.
1300sqft cape cod
900 sqft basement unheated
Built my house 9 yrs or so ago
Darn thing still struggles to heat. 
I think alot of it is me.  Annoyed I jumped into a new type of burning with a BRAND new unit.


----------



## BrotherBart

Reading these posts I always have to think about the wood stoves that folks here have crack. Virtually every time it happens it is where the steel is punched with square openings instead of radius cuts.


----------



## brenndatomu

BrotherBart said:


> Reading these posts I always have to think about the wood stoves that folks here have crack. Virtually every time it happens it is where the steel is punched with square openings instead of radius cuts.


Now that is some VERY interesting information! You would think that a company with the experience of SBI would have and use this kind of knowledge. Pretty bad when a lowly ole $400 Vogelzang Defender stove can take a belly full o hades in stride but a "$2000" furnace cracks up


----------



## BrotherBart

Do a search for Summit and crack or cracks for an example.


----------



## mlaw22

brenndatomu said:


> Now that is some VERY interesting information! You would think that a company with the experience of SBI would have and use this kind of knowledge. Pretty bad when a lowly ole $400 Vogelzang Defender stove can take a belly full o hades in stride but a "$2000" furnace cracks up



Agreed


----------



## DoubleB

BrotherBart said:


> steel is punched with square openings instead of radius cuts.



It appears that there are in fact radius cuts in the locations of the cracks, but they're a very small radius, almost imperceptable, at least on mine.  Maybe we'll see that get larger with newer units.


----------



## laynes69

I've read posts where they've burned open for hours. I never let ours burn open for more than a 1/2 hour. When it closes at that point, it cranks out the heat. Now once the coaling stage approaches, it can stay open if it wants. We don't run a baro now, but when I did I kept it at .05-.06. I will say I've forgotten to latch the door on a full load and went to bed. It was screaming hot thru the night and there's no damage to the furnace. After that, I lowered the limit to 160 to keep things in line.


----------



## 3fordasho

laynes69 said:


> I've read posts where they've burned open for hours. I never let ours burn open for more than a 1/2 hour. When it closes at that point, it cranks out the heat. Now once the coaling stage approaches, it can stay open if it wants. .




This is exactly how I run mine, never wide open damper for more than 30mn, and that is for a cold start.  Reloads are usually 10-20mn depending on amount of remaining coals.  I figure the furnace is most efficient up to temperature with a closed damper.  If that's not enough heat for my 3400 sq ft I fire up a second stove.  Running the furnace hours on end with wide open damper and a  fresh load IMHO is a recipe for over-firing and eventually damage.  

I don't think the manual warns against this - but it should.  Coming from free standing wood stoves either cat or secondary I wouldn't dream of leaving the stove run for hours with a wide open damper unless you are trying to burn down coals at the end of a burn cycle.

What the tundra really needs is a damper control motor that can set the opening to a burn rate somewhere in-between open and closed when a higher output is required - but then we might be looking at pricing closer to a Kuuma ;-)


----------



## centennial60

Hello all. I've been watching this thread as well as the on AS. I also have a tundra waiting to be installed. Sn #11xx. Couple questions that pop up in my mind are..this furnace is supposed to be very close to the caddy so why are the caddys not cracking? I'd like to see the construction of the door opening on a caddy is it constructed the same? Maybe someone on here that has a caddy could snap a couple pictures so we can compare. Also two main differences between the two that I see are..the caddy uses a larger blower I believe? And has a large plenum hot air outlet compared to 2 restrictive 8 inch outlets. Maybe the restrictive air flow is causing some areas of the furnace to get overly hot. Just some thoughts..

Adam


----------



## TheBigIron

On the Tundra I wonder if you could make that large plenum opening like on the Caddy?  Instead of using the 2 side by side outlets or the 2 front to rear outlets could you just utilize that whole space where the 4 outlets are on top of the Tundra and install a plenum that is big enough to cover that entire area?  Then off of that plenum install ductwork to wherever you would need it.  Would this make a difference in how hot the unit would get?  Some thoughts for the experts..  Or would this cause bigger issues?  Any input would be great..  Thanks Dave


----------



## laynes69

The door openings are the same, but the Caddy had an air jacket built around the face of the firebox, or mine does. So the entire surface is cooled. I've questioned SBI about utilizing the 4 openings and they said no, not sure why. I would have to assume between the lower density firebrick and the 2 8" openings, the Tundra runs with a hotter firebox.


----------



## TheBigIron

laynes69 said:


> The door openings are the same, but the Caddy had an air jacket built around the face of the firebox, or mine does. So the entire surface is cooled. I've questioned SBI about utilizing the 4 openings and they said no, not sure why. I would have to assume between the lower density firebrick and the 2 8" openings, the Tundra runs with a hotter firebox.


 laynes69,
I spoke with an SBI tech and he informed me that using the 4 outlets, there would be velocity issues..  Maybe a larger blower in the tundra??


----------



## brenndatomu

The exhaust stream exits the firebox in the back corners going into the heat exchanger tubes on each side. Those come together behind the HE cleanout door merging together to exit though the center tube. I think they prefer using the side duct connections because...
1. The exhaust will be hottest there (when I say exhaust I mean flue gasses)
2. The heat exchange will be best there because exhaust velocity is lower due to the 2 into 1 HE tube design. (longer contact time with the metal)
3.   Both sides should be equal temp whereas if using the front to rear connections the temp would be hotter in the front one than the rear due to both being on the same tube. And I'm sure there are differences in airflow between using the 2 different sets of holes to, as far as how the blower cools the firebox and HE tubes.

Not sure why they are so dead set against using all 4 connections or even a plenum, other than that's the way it was designed and tested so allowing anything else introduces an unknown variable. Also, it may be a case of it's better to make a smaller airflow volume hot than to make a larger airflow volume warm.  Another thing may be creosote issues if HE tubes are cooled too much (and too cool exhaust could cause draft problems for some chimneys too)


----------



## DoubleB

The46Zone said:


> I spoke with an SBI tech and he informed me that using the 4 outlets, there would be velocity issues.. Maybe a larger blower in the tundra??



I asked SBI about 4 outlets about a year ago, and the tech said it could be done, but resulted in poorer air flow.  It sounds counterintuitive, but there might actually be a good reason.  Here's an analogy:

If you aren't getting enough heat into one room of your house, the answer isn't necessarily to give it a bigger duct/register or increase fan speed; rather it might be better to partially shut down registers in other rooms. 

With the Tundra, the objective is to remove heat, but the point is the same:  if it's too easy for air to blow past cool areas of the furnace, then not enough air will blow past the hot areas that most need heat removed.  One solution could be to crank up the fan speed, but that doesn't always work effectively, depending upon duct systems, and even power outage.  In fact, this idea is used in a lot of heat exchangers:  that by adding restriction to the easy flow paths, it's actually possible to reduce total flow (and power) required to remove the same heat from the heat exchanger.  For the Tundra, specifying two of the outlets might actually be better than all four (if in fact this is the principle, but I do not know this for sure.)


----------



## DoubleB

3fordasho said:


> laynes69 said: ↑
> I've read posts where they've burned open for hours. I never let ours burn open for more than a 1/2 hour. When it closes at that point, it cranks out the heat. Now once the coaling stage approaches, it can stay open if it wants. .
> This is exactly how I run mine, never wide open damper for more than 30mn, and that is for a cold start. Reloads are usually 10-20mn depending on amount of remaining coals. I figure the furnace is most efficient up to temperature with a closed damper.



If I'm not mistaken, both of you guys have a thermostat connected?  If so, any tips for how to avoid the thermostat from keeping the damper open for quite a while?  Do you just set the tstat a couple degrees colder than the temp when you load the furnace, so that the damper doesn't open roughly until it's just coals?

3fordasho, you posted that you have the high temp cutout in your flue, but are temps high enough with damper closed to keep that switch open, and if not, then how long does the tstat open the damper to bump temps above the tstat?

I'm just getting confused how much your damper might or might not be open during peak heat in the cycle.  Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Wisneaky

Here is an update on my Tundra with the cracks. Originally SBI said I would need to return the furnace to Menards and they would ship a replacement furnace to them or I could receive a credit. I replied to their email about how much it weighs and also asked about how the credit would work. They said I would get an instore credit for my original purchase price. I told them I would like to go the credit route until I could determine if the issue was fixed. I then received an email saying that they would contact the store and I would only need to bring in the sticker from the furnace along with my receipt and a form they emailed me. I took everything to menards today and received the credit with no issues. I'm going to wait and see if sbi comes out with that bigger tundra I've heard about. I must say SBI customer service is excellent and they are extremely good at honoring any warranty issues. I think they went above and beyond what some manufacturer's would of.


----------



## David_QC

Good to know that the service is good !

Concerning overheating issues or damper full open more than 30 minutes... would it be a good idea to add a second damper motor on top of the first one ?
Motor #1 with a short chain link to the damper... connected to a timer
Motor #2 with a longer chain link to the damper... connected to the tstat

Honeywell M847A1031 cost 80$


----------



## Wisneaky

David_QC said:


> Good to know that the service is good !
> 
> Concerning overheating issues or damper full open more than 30 minutes... would it be a good idea to add a second damper motor on top of the first one ?
> Motor #1 with a short chain link to the damper... connected to a timer
> Motor #2 with a longer chain link to the damper... connected to the tstat
> 
> Honeywell M847A1031 cost 80$


Do you have a barometric damper installed? Do you know what your chimney draft is?


----------



## laynes69

If the furnace is sized properly, it shouldnt have to remain open for an extended amount of time. For us, usually within 20 minutes after loading the house will hit 72 in the morning if it's dropped. If it's bitter cold and I know it's going to work harder, after let's say a half hour, I'll close the damper and the house will continue to rise. Once it hits it's setpoint, I'll up the thermostat and it will maintain that temperature. If there is a call for heat, the damper only opens a couple minutes at most and closes. If I know the furnace won't keep a set temperature (-20 degree temps) I'll settle for let's say 70 instead of 75. I will say since we've tightened up our home, the furnace works alot less. If the furnace must stay open during the first couple hours of the burn, it's the wood or its just not enough.


----------



## 3fordasho

I do have a thermostat but its set point is set low and it never calls for heat.  I thought it might be beneficial but with the other controls I've added it's really not necessary. Part of the problem is I'm heating way more than the tundra can handle and if I moved the set point up it would call for heat most of the heating season.

The other controls I've added:

0-60mn "hot tub" timer connected to terminals on back of tundra- used for cold starts and reloads. Typically 30mns for a cold start, 10-20mn for a reload on coals.  Purpose is to get the firebox hot enough to maintain secondary action after the timer ends and allows the damper to close.   I don't use the manual damper switch the factory provided.

Flue temperature monitor - a thermocouple mounted in the flue connector pipe about 12" above the rear exit-
this is my furnace and chimney protection device- the thermocouple is connected to a digital temp control with relay outputs- the temp control normally closed contact is wired in series with the factory high temp limit snap disk. Once it reaches the temp I've selected as maximum safe (currently 625F) it opens that NC contact and shuts the air damper just like tripping the factory high limit would.  The temp control allows the damper to reopen once temps cool to 425f  (assuming the timer is still closed) This control lets me load the furnace, set the timer and walk away worry free knowing the temp controller will keep temps in check.

Now since my thermostat never calls for heat (reason explained above)  the inlet damper will not open after the initial start up or reload and thus the heat output is low for the second half of the burn and I get a build up of coals at times - for most this is where the thermostat would be beneficial.  I again utilize the flue temp control (this time the low temp alarm) to open the air inlet once temps drop too low (currently set to 250F) getting more heat and burning down the coals.










DoubleB said:


> If I'm not mistaken, both of you guys have a thermostat connected?  If so, any tips for how to avoid the thermostat from keeping the damper open for quite a while?  Do you just set the tstat a couple degrees colder than the temp when you load the furnace, so that the damper doesn't open roughly until it's just coals?
> 
> 3fordasho, you posted that you have the high temp cutout in your flue, but are temps high enough with damper closed to keep that switch open, and if not, then how long does the tstat open the damper to bump temps above the tstat?
> 
> I'm just getting confused how much your damper might or might not be open during peak heat in the cycle.  Thanks for your advice.


----------



## DoubleB

Laynes and 3ford, thanks for the good explanations, that clears it up for me.  I like your systems too.


Wisneaky,


Wisneaky said:


> I must say SBI customer service is excellent and they are extremely good at honoring any warranty issues. I think they went above and beyond what some manufacturer's would of.



I'm glad it's turning out well for you, all things considered.  They're handling my cracking the exact same way as yours, and I feel the same of SBI.


----------



## DoubleB

David_QC said:


> Concerning overheating issues or damper full open more than 30 minutes... would it be a good idea to add a second damper motor on top of the first one ?
> Motor #1 with a short chain link to the damper... connected to a timer
> Motor #2 with a longer chain link to the damper... connected to the tstat



Seems to me you could do it all with only the existing damper motor, just like 3fordasho did.  The only advantage I can think that a 2nd motor might add is if you were to try to achieve a "medium" burn rate with the damper only partly open.  Is that what you have in mind?


----------



## David_QC

DoubleB said:


> Seems to me you could do it all with only the existing damper motor, just like 3fordasho did.  The only advantage I can think that a 2nd motor might add is if you were to try to achieve a "medium" burn rate with the damper only partly open.  Is that what you have in mind?



Exactly, sorry it wasn't clear what was the purpose of this...
As Laynes explain how he is running his caddy, I suppose it's my wood and next year will be better, but for now at damper full open my burn time is really bad and at full close my furnace is a creosote machine, so I have to run middle open to be happy. If I adjust the existing chain a bit longer I have to use a strap on the damper open during 30 minutes while loading and not forget it... If I use a shim under the damper to keep it middle open, it could be bad if a power loss happen. So that's why a second motor would be usefull in my case.

I think that middle open could help for overheating as well if wood is good... don't know... never run it with good wood for now :- )


----------



## DoubleB

David QC,
My wood is doing me ok, but sometimes it's a bit damp.  Only had 1 year to dry most of it, but it's fairly low density.  I think you and I both are going to enjoy next winter more with drier wood.  There's not enough time left in this winter for me to try messing around with a 2nd motorized damper, but if you want to, we'd enjoy hearing your results.  I might yet, though, add a timer and high temp cutout this spring.


----------



## DoubleB

So as the posts the last couple days have been talking about burning practices, high temps, and air distribution, I vaguely remember a long time ago hearing that a bunch of Amish families near them are running Caddies in gravity air flow only, without electricity or fans.  I think that was here on hearth.com.

Does that jog anyone's memory?  If so, that's curious to me because they wouldn't have as much cooling as the rest of us with electricity, nor automatic high-temp cutout, etc., yet I assume those Caddies have worked well enough?  Just thought I'd bring that up if it helps provide insight for us.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I vaguely remember a long time ago hearing that a bunch of Amish families near them are running Caddies in gravity air flow only, without electricity or fans. I think that was here on hearth.com.
> Does that jog anyone's memory?


Yep, I think that was over on AS, in the big Tundra thread? (Edit, just looked, yep...post #140 by Fyrebug) (also, check out the first line of post # 142 and #154!)
I believe Caddys are available without a blower. So with no blower and very likely no filter of any kind, gravity flow could be pretty substantial.

After a lil prodding, SBI responded to my most recent email asking about expected lifespan of Tundra. They said with proper setup, and under normal use, they would expect 10 years.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> After a lil prodding, SBI responded to my most recent email asking about expected lifespan of Tundra. They said with proper setup, and under normal use, they would expect 10 years.



My guess what pretty accurate then when I looked at them at Menards.  I figured 5-10 years.  Like they said 10 years is the max life one should expect out of them under perfect conditions.  I'd expect closer to 5.  I just don't see how they save anybody money in the long run.  Save $$ now to spend more when everything is said and done.


----------



## Smoke Signals

JRHAWK9 said:


> My guess what pretty accurate then when I looked at them at Menards.  I figured 5-10 years.  Like they said 10 years is the max life one should expect out of them under perfect conditions.  I'd expect closer to 5.  I just don't see how they save anybody money in the long run.  Save $$ now to spend more when everything is said and done.



Every one would like a new car (or truck) but some times it's not in the budget so you have to buy a used one or two for less money to get you by until your situation allows you to buy brand new. Yes, you may spend a little more in the long run but at least you never have to walk


----------



## JRHAWK9

One can make an argument that older/used vehicles will actually cost you LESS to own.  So that's not a very good analogy  

With a walk-out basement, installing my furnace was a cakewalk compared to what some of you guys had to go through installing yours.  Even so, I wouldn't want to install a new one every 5-7 years, even with how easy my walk-out made it.  I couldn't imagine some of you guys having to yank the old one out and put a new one in multiple times over a time period where one well built furnace would last.  I guess I'm the crazy one though.    Wonder how long Caddy's are designed to last?


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Like they said 10 years is the max life one should expect out of them under perfect conditions


Hmm, I don't remember the words "max" or "perfect" in what I posted. The way _I_ read what they sent me was more like, If installed and run _properly_, we would (or you could) expect _at least_ 10 years.

Nobody here is saying that your furnace is not awesome, or the best, whatever, no need to keep rubbing non Kuuma owners noses it. People are buying an affordable clean burn wood furnace made by a fairly reputable company that is at least located on the North American continent. Unfortunately, there have been some bumps in the road, but instead of critiquing, how about some kudos for not buying a chinese made smoke dragon from the local farm supply store?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> After a lil prodding, SBI responded to my most recent email asking about expected lifespan of Tundra. They said with proper setup, and under normal use, they would expect 10 years



This can't be true, how can you offer a lifetime firebox warranty but say the unit should last 10 years. The fire box is basically the unit. Something spells fishy. I am not a fan of units lasting 30 years, with technology as it is 10-15 years is perfect. I am sure in 15 years I won't be burning my unit because of advancements.


----------



## Smoke Signals

JRHAWK9 said:


> One can make an argument that older/used vehicles will actually cost you LESS to own.  So that's not a very good analogy



Well I didn't think it was bad for short notice . But think about it this way, burning a Tundra is going to save a lot of money over burning propane so a efficient wood furnace is better than no wood furnace at all kind of like a used car beats walking. Guess walking would be cheaper than a used car but who wants to walk?


----------



## BrotherBart

STIHLY DAN said:


> This can't be true, how can you offer a lifetime firebox warranty but say the unit should last 10 years.



Limited lifetime warranties have long been legally recognized as ten years or after the unit isn't in production anymore.


----------



## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> This can't be true, how can you offer a lifetime firebox warranty but say the unit should last 10 years. The fire box is basically the unit. Something spells fishy. I am not a fan of units lasting 30 years, with technology as it is 10-15 years is perfect. I am sure in 15 years I won't be burning my unit because of advancements.



But if it lasts 30, you can sell it after 15 and re-coup some of the money.  Can't sell one which is junk


----------



## Smoke Signals

JRHAWK9 said:


> But if it lasts 30, you can sell it after 15 and re-coup some of the money.  Can't sell one which is junk



Maybe not but I can sell it after five years and re-coop some money and buy something better!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Hmm, I don't remember the words "max" or "perfect" in what I posted. The way _I_ read what they sent me was more like, If installed and run _properly_, we would (or you could) expect _at least_ 10 years.



You know dang well salesmen will stretch the truth.  It's like asking how many sexual partners a person has had....double whatever a women tells you and half whatever a guy says. 
well, so far it seems a lot of them can't make it a year....so lets shoot for two before getting too far ahead.


----------



## JRHAWK9

BrotherBart said:


> Limited lifetime warranties have long been legally recognized as ten years or after the unit isn't in production anymore.



I chuckle when I see "lifetime" warranties.  The question I always have is, who's lifetime?  If the item breaks at 2 years, it's lifetime has technically expired, therefore the warranty may have too.  Most people automatically think a lifetime warranty relates to their own lifetime, which may not always be the case.


----------



## Wisneaky

JRHAWK9 said:


> I chuckle when I see "lifetime" warranties.  The question I always have is, who's lifetime?  If the item breaks at 2 years, it's lifetime has technically expired, therefore the warranty may have too.  Most people automatically think a lifetime warranty relates to their own lifetime, which may not always be the case.


I wonder how much that computerized damper costs on the kuuma? I see they only warranty electrical items for 90 days. When that stops working it's probably half the cost of the furnace. They may have a 25 year warranty on the furnace but a lot of stuff is excluded and if there is a crack the owner must pay shipping costs back to the factory so it can be fixed. At least when my Tundra cracked I received a refund and got to keep my original furnace.


----------



## maple1

Hope this thread doesn't get wrecked by the unnecessary sidetracking & non-Tundra 'input'. It has lots of potential. Good luck guys.


----------



## TheBigIron

I was hoping that we all could get back on track like brenndatomu had suggested in post #1 like no product bashing and so on and so forth.  All Tundra owners need input from others so we can resolve issues and give ideas to others..  Thanks... I put my Tundra in the basement last week and waiting until weather warms up to start my install...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

BrotherBart said:


> Limited lifetime warranties have long been legally recognized as ten years or after the unit isn't in production anymore.



That blows, I learn something everyday. So is a 15 year warranty actually better than a lifetime warranty? I know if I was comparing two identical units at the same price I would have chose the one with the lifetime warranty over the 15.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Wisneaky said:


> I wonder how much that computerized damper costs on the kuuma? I see they only warranty electrical items for 90 days. When that stops working it's probably half the cost of the furnace. They may have a 25 year warranty on the furnace but a lot of stuff is excluded and if there is a crack the owner must pay shipping costs back to the factory so it can be fixed. At least when my Tundra cracked I received a refund and got to keep my original furnace.



Better real 'er back in and cast again.....I'm not biting


----------



## laynes69

Lifetime warranties vary from state to state, each has their own limitations. As far as SBI, refunding the purchase price may be easier than a direct replacement if there is a problem with the design. Just like cars, things like this happen. It sucks for the consumer, but I'm sure in one way or another the company will help out those dealing with the problems. It sounds like they are doing just that. Yeah a lifetime warranty is good, but like mentioned when new technology comes out and there's better things, I'm not going to want what I have now. Our furnace paid for itself the first few months and has saved us thousands.


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> Our furnace paid for itself the first few months and has saved us thousands.



What did you pay for your "Caddy"?


----------



## laynes69

After rebates and tax insentives, around 1200.00. I lucked out, it was renamed and the store only had a couple left.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

laynes69 said:


> After rebates and tax insentives, around 1200.00. I lucked out, it was renamed and the store only had a couple left.



That was one hell of a deal. I love a good deal. Mine was a year on ROI, but that year oil was $3.95 gal.


----------



## brenndatomu

Just bouncin ideas around in muh head...since the high limit switch closes the damper door, I wonder how well it would work to replace the high limit switch with an adjustable snap switch like some guys are doing for the fan control switch? I know it wouldn't be as good as the temp controller with a sensor right into the flue, but it would be quick n easy (less wiring for those who are wiring adverse) and with the adjustability of the switch I bet you could get things dialed in pretty good. Heck, you could almost lower it down to within a few degrees higher that the fan switch cut-in temp. You wouldn't have the ability to open the damper to burn down coals like with the temp controller either...but still, maybe an idea for some folks, the price is right too.

At this point I am thinking that I'm gonna go the temp controller route on my sisters Tundra install...


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Just bouncin ideas around in muh head...since the high limit switch closes the damper door, I wonder how well it would work to replace the high limit switch with an adjustable snap switch like some guys are doing for the fan control switch? I know it wouldn't be as good as the temp controller with a sensor right into the flue, but it would be quick n easy (less wiring for those who are wiring adverse) and with the adjustability of the switch I bet you could get things dialed in pretty good. Heck, you could almost lower it down to within a few degrees higher that the fan switch cut-in temp. You wouldn't have the ability to open the damper to burn down coals like with the temp controller either...but still, maybe an idea for some folks, the price is right too.



I've been contemplating something like that the last couple days.  Since I don't know how long I'll have this Tundra, I want to keep my investment minimal.  I'm thinking of using the screwholes for the ashtray under the loading door, and making an adjustable bracket that bolts in there and reaches to different parts of the front face of the furnace.  Put a snap disk in the bracket.  I'm looking at a 350 open 310 close.

This morning I used my IR thermometer to map out the temps on the front face during a burn, but had to leave before coaling.  More measurements to take.  But I'm optimistic that I can find a spot where the temp will be above 350 with the damper closed, but cool enough to stay closed in order to burn long enough to get the secondaries going, and also cool enough during early coaling.  Then, put a timer and my wall thermostat in parallel, both in series with the 310/350 snap disk.  Primary control would be by keeping thermostat low enough, but once to coaling the snap disk would be closed and let the damper open to burn off coals.

I was surprised how quickly the face of the furnace changed temp when I opened/closed the damper, so there might be enough responsiveness to make it work well.

I'll post results if I do it.


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> After rebates and tax insentives, around 1200.00. I lucked out, it was renamed and the store only had a couple left.



yeah, that was a heck of a deal!


----------



## David_QC

brenndatomu said:


> At this point I am thinking that I'm gonna go the temp controller route on my sisters Tundra install...



I bought a Sestos temp controller on aliexpress, as i'm not a rush on receiving it.... paid 45$ free shipping including the controller and the temp probe. It is in Celcius, but in Canada we are used to it :- P

Still not sure what i'm going to do with it, maybe flue temp alarm or only a plenum temp reading with the controller more visible from upstair (furnace far in the basement)... at this price I will sure have some fun playing with it. I will install it in a small cabinet including a 30 minutes timer and a On/Off/Auto select switch controlling the damper.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> replace the high limit switch with an adjustable snap switch





brenndatomu said:


> quick n easy





brenndatomu said:


> dialed in pretty good



Gosh, the more I think about it, this is the way for me to go.  Great idea, Brenndatomu, I'm stopping after work to see if I can pick up an adjustable snap disk.  Super easy and inexpensive experiment.  And, I think it should work well to burn off coals, if you use your thermostat to do that, since my fan usually doesn't run 100% when burning coals, which means the snap disk would be closed to enable the tstat.


----------



## brenndatomu

David_QC said:


> I bought a Sestos temp controller


Not familiar with that brand, are those supposed to be a decent unit?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Not familiar with that brand, are those supposed to be a decent unit?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alibaba_Group



> Launched in 2010, AliExpress.com is an online retail service made up of mostly small Chinese businesses offering products to international online buyers. It is the most visited e-commerce website in Russia.



http://www.amazon.com/Sestos-Temperature-Controller-D1S-VR-220-40A/dp/B00ADHNSGI


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alibaba_Group
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Sestos-Temperature-Controller-D1S-VR-220-40A/dp/B00ADHNSGI


Thanks, I seen 'em on fleabay but they are $10-15 more there. Looks like the reviews are not bad on amazon


----------



## brenndatomu

I just had something occur to me, I wonder how many people that have had cracks have also had the damper door linkage hang up on them at one point in time? See where I going here?
It hangs open and...that could be an automatic overheat no matter if the damper control motor is powered up or not...may be time to pool some stats again.
Heck, you may not even know if it hangs up on ya, if it happens in the middle of the night or when you are gone. And it may only take one good hot run to start the crack, then it's all downhill from there once it's started
This may also explain why Tundras are cracking and not Caddys, different damper motor/linkage setup


----------



## bpwelding2005

well to the "best of my knowledge" my damper has not hung up in the open or even partially open position mine likes to get stuck closed and not open. but my dads would stick open and that was never a good thing.


----------



## 3fordasho

No cracks but mine does hang up once in a while - I need to investigate further but I've loosened the two screws holding the flap and it seemed to help for a while.  I tend to watch it on reloads to make sure it is closed for the hot part of the burn, if it opens 1/2 way through the burn or later there is not enough fuel left to cause a problem.    All the controls/limits in the world don't help if the flap mechanically sticks open :-/




brenndatomu said:


> I just had something occur to me, I wonder how many people that have had cracks have also had the damper door linkage hang up on them at one point in time? See where I going here?
> It hangs open and...that could be an automatic overheat no matter if the damper control motor is powered up or not...may be time to pool some stats again.
> Heck, you may not even know if it hangs up on ya, if it happens in the middle of the night or when you are gone. And it may only take one good hot run to start the crack, then it's all downhill from there once it's started
> This may also explain why Tundras are cracking and not Caddys, different damper motor/linkage setup


----------



## laynes69

I honestly believe the lack of cracking on the Caddy is due to the false front, and the open plenum. I'm sure there's also a lag between a snapdisc and a limit control probe.


----------



## DoubleB

My furnace cracked and my damper used to hang up about half the time about 3/16" open (a couple months ago I adjusted it and it always closes now).  However, I don't think the failure to completely close caused overheat in my case.  When it would happen, my damper was still more closed than Wisneaky's damper that uses the improvement kit SBI sent him (last picture of post #31).

However, the hang up I experienced is certainly not by design and is therefore uncontrolled, so I'm sure it's possible for a damper to stay open more fully in other furnaces...


----------



## jdogg

Smoke Signals said:


> Every one would like a new car (or truck) but some times it's not in the budget so you have to buy a used one or two for less money to get you by until your situation allows you to buy brand new. Yes, you may spend a little more in the long run but at least you never have to walk


I def want something that will last longer than 5 yrs way to much work to get a new one in basement and remove old one.
Im def holding off on the drolet till they get it right. I'll let you "early adaptors" deal with their design flaws. Kinda like my vette they made C-4s from 1984-1996 the latest model has the most powerfull motor (fastest) and least design issues. Like my 1992 was the first year for the LT-1 engine, first one over 300 HP stock and a upgrade over previous models.
But they put the opti spark (basicly the distributor) on the front of the engine below the waterpump. Not a good idea when the waterpump starts going it leaks coolent on your distributor. (Not good) etc prob solved by 1996 etc.


----------



## jdogg

So last year when my waterpump went out I installed a new opti-spark at the same time. The old one still worked but when I opened it up it was full of corrosion. Once you have the water pump out the opti is the next thing down so I said "change it while its easy to do.


----------



## JRHAWK9

jdogg said:


> So last year when my waterpump went out I installed a new opti-spark at the same time. The old one still worked but when I opened it up it was full of corrosion. Once you have the water pump out the opti is the next thing down so I said "change it while its easy to do.



ahhh, good ole opti-crap.  The LT1's were also put in f-bodies from '93-'97.  The '96 LT4 found in the Vette of that year also had it.  The LT1's were also put in the b bodies.  I have an LS1 fbody and a LS3 Vette, so I was never blessed with the opti-crap.  My GF used to have a '95 TA convert though which had the LT1.  It never gave her any problems though.  BTW, it's LT1 (without the hyphen).  The LT-1 was the RPO code for the Gen I small block used in the early 70's.  The current LT1 is now the RPO for the gen V small block used in the new C7.

Anyway, back on track.  I would agree with you waiting till they get things figured out,  It's almost like they are following Microsoft's way of doing things when they released Vista.  Using the public as guinea pigs in order to evaluate and then release an updated version with all the fixes.


----------



## jdogg

Well the Tundra is back on Menards 11% off plus sale price of $1399 vrs list price of $1799. So after you get your in-store credit rebate check thats works out to $1245.99. What a killer deal!

https://www.menards.com/main/p-2431486-c-12809.htm


----------



## jdogg

You know the blower only circulates air around the sides and top of the firebox front and back your on your own. They prob didn't use thick enough steel in the front. I'd prob try to seal the crack with stove cement or gasket cement and get a piece of say firebrick or ceramic in front of where the crack started. Prob try to glue the firebrick in with stove cement or something similar. Will need clean shiney metal on inside of the firebox for it to have a chance of working. Don't let your furnace run hot, if its not enough heat when its below zero, let the regular furnace run for 15 minutes or so. Better than it running all day and night like a non wood burning home.  Remember if your furnace keeps you toasty when its 30 below its gonna cook you out the house when its 30 above.


----------



## 3fordasho

Here are most of the details for my Tundra add on control:
Temp control is a Omega engineering #CN418V-R1-R2
J-type thermocouple - Mcmaster 3871K52

Later tonight I'll scroll through all the settings for the Omega temp control and post those up too.


----------



## Buzz Saw

What's the orange stuff on the stove pipe?


----------



## 3fordasho

Hi temp silicon - had some reverse draft issues when first installed that have since been corrected (other open vents up through the roof in the furnace room - now closed off)   Supposed to be good to 900F and have not had problems with it getting too hot but I'll probably pull it off at some point.  It did reduce the smoke spillage when I was having the draft issues.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> J-type thermocouple - Mcmaster 3871K52


Have you had issues with the thermocouple getting fouled up by creosote/soot? How often do you have to pull the thermocouple out to clean it?


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> Have you had issues with the thermocouple getting fouled up by creosote/soot? How often do you have to pull the thermocouple out to clean it?



I have not cleaned it since installed late last year.  It's working like it always did but I'm sure it's getting some build up just like my probe type thermometers do.  They seem unaffected by some build up - maybe the response is slowed some?    I typically will clean the probe thermometers once a year and will do the same with the thermocouple.


----------



## TheBigIron

3fordasho said:


> Here are most of the details for my Tundra add on control:
> Temp control is a Omega engineering #CN418V-R1-R2
> J-type thermocouple - Mcmaster 3871K52
> 
> Later tonight I'll scroll through all the settings for the Omega temp control and post those up too.


Did that white box come with your temp monitor?  I just received mine in the mail and did not receive that white box, just the control.  

Thanks Dave


----------



## brenndatomu

The46Zone said:


> Did that white box come with your temp monitor?  I just received mine in the mail and did not receive that white box, just the control.
> 
> Thanks Dave


These type of controls are considered panel mount, so you will either need to cut a hole in a piece of sheet metal and then mount that somewheres or if you want it completely enclosed then you'll need to get some type of metal box like 3fords to mount it in. I suppose it could be as simple as a duplex receptacle box (4x4) with a couple box extenders on it...then get a blank cover, cut the proper size hole...wah-lah! Not quite as purty as 3fords though...


----------



## 3fordasho

The46Zone said:


> Did that white box come with your temp monitor?  I just received mine in the mail and did not receive that white box, just the control.
> 
> Thanks Dave


 


It's a small electrical enclosure from Mcmaster- less than $20 if I recall correctly.  Aprox 6" cube with plenty of knock-outs around the back.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> either need to cut a hole in a piece of sheet metal and then mount that somewheres or if you want it completely enclosed then you'll need to get some type of metal box



If that's the case, I'd consider mounting it in one of the 2 sheet metal plates that were included to block off the blower box.  It would be mounted rather low unfortunately, and not pointed forward, but at least something to consider.  No extra parts required, everything is contained within what is already an enclosed electrical space, and you also have a spare and large access panel to get at the backside of the controller.  Just a thought...


----------



## 3fordasho

Electrical box that I used:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#75065k35/=wjbfxb

Mcmaster 75065K35


----------



## DoubleB

As for the cracking on my Tundra, I was surprised to notice that the crack closes with a fire (first picture) and opens when the furnace is cold (second picture).  






I also notice that this crack (and I think most of the others I’ve seen here) is mostly horizontal.  I also have spent quite a bit of time with the IR laser thermometer mapping out the front of the furnace, and found that the region of 2-3” wide along each side of the door is about 200F-300F hotter than the regions further to the side, and can get hotter than 750F with just a few minutes of the thermostat opening the damper.  This temperature difference makes sense since the firebox is a couple inches wider than the door on each side, and there is no firebrick separating the firebox from the front of the furnace.

Given all this, it seems to me that the cause of the cracks (at least those around the door) is that the 2-3” wide regions of front surface on either side of the door must get hotter than the neighboring material enough to put it in compression during a fire.  If those regions are hot enough the strength of the steel also starts to soften, evidently to the point that it permanently yields a bit so that once the furnace cools down, now the sides of the door are in tension.  This must be happening enough that a combination of tension plus number of cycles may be what’s causing the cracks.  At least that’s my theory.

Maybe this was already obvious to others.  Or maybe the cause doesn’t completely matter.  I just like to have a theory to help me take a guess at if I can fix it, or otherwise mitigate it, or know if SBI fixed it, or if I should avoid SBI products, or prefer them, or what.

My plan at the moment is to drill a hole at the root of this crack, add firebrick to the front sides of the door, and add over-temp protection to override the damper. But I’ll have to wait until next winter to see if this crack (or my other smaller cracks) grow.

At least these are easy things to do compared to replacing the furnace, which I may do after the foreseeable future.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> My plan at the moment is to drill a hole at the root of this crack, add firebrick to the front sides of the door, and add over-temp protection to override the damper


Exactly what I was planning on my sisters new Tundra (firebrick and temp control that is)
Nice job on the "homework" there Dubba!
I am gonna get a chance to play with one of these myself. I just acquired a HeatMax that was warrantied for cracking. I'm planning to weld it up just as you mentioned. I talked to one of the high pressure steam certified boiler welders at work about how to go about welding it, he seemed to think that a cold firebox would be OK, but I wonder which would be better...cold? Blazing hot? Warm? After seeing the difference in your cracks from cold to hot, it makes me think that the metal temp before/during welding does matter.


----------



## DoubleB

Nice score on the Heatmax!  Is it for tinkering, or has the Yukon seen its last season?

Actually, I'm not planning on welding mine yet.  I think I'll put some cement or silicone or something over the drilled hole/cracks, and see how it does with just that before I take the next step of welding.  I have welded many pieces of steel together before, but I'm no pro and I don't have my own welder at the moment so I figure I'll wait to pay a guy to come until I know it's needed.

Another reason I'll probably wait to weld is so that I can have time next season to map out front face temperatures before and after I install the extra firebrick.  I think the (assumed) change in temperature profile with and without the brick will help show what might happen for stresses with the firebrick installed.  And, that might show whether you want to weld hot or cold

If I welded it, I'm guessing I'd do it cold (or maybe slightly warm if that helps lay a good bead).  I'll simplify and pretend our furnaces are now unstressed both hot or cold since the crack opens/closes.  I think I'd rather have the steel welded in a position unstressed cold and go to compression during a fire, then be welded in a position unstressed during a fire and go to tension after the fire.  And ultimately tension causes cracks, not compression.  Of course, too much compression is what I imagine leads to the deformation that leads to tension and the cracking we have, but hopefully the firebrick will mitigate the deformation and tension.

Another reason I'd lean toward welding it cold/warm is in case you want to tackle anything or lay a bead on the inside of the furnace, that option would be available.

Just my thoughts but they frequently change...


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Is it for tinkering, or has the Yukon seen its last season?


Well, some tinkering for sure, and the Yook will just be used for it's oil burner when we go away, unless the Drolet doesn't work out, then I will just continue to use the Yook full time until I decide what I'm gonna do long term.
Good idea on the silicone, drill a hole to stop the crack, seal it, then let it move around as it wants. Lots of things out there built like that, let it flex so it don't crack


----------



## clayh88

Hey guys. I'm new here.Been reading a lot but haven't posted much yet.  Ive read about everything  from this website on the tundra because I own one and have struggled with it. I have also experienced the cracks that a lot of guys are having problems with. SN 13XX. So the problem is on later units too. When i first started looking for a furnace I got some info from some guys that where using the tundra that had good things to say so i bought one. Wish I would have researched more and got the max caddy but funds did not allow.  Long story short it has served me well in certain ways but drives me nuts most of the time. It cut my electric bills in half and but has developed cracks after one season and I have really struggled with learning this furnace. I believe my biggest problem is wet wood but other days I think there's something else. As far as the cracks SBI has been good to me for the most part other than they will not refund my money only an in store credit. The options they have given me. 
1. Take menards instore credit. Then I will attempt to fix it. 

2. Take a new redesigned tundra that they claim they have fixed the issues on. Below is what SBI told me they have done to fix it. 
"The new production of this unit has taken into consideration the faults that were present in the current model.  Refractory bricks have been added to the front of the firebox. The heat exchangers and firebox are now independent from each other eliminating the potential stress from expansion which caused the initial cracks that you experienced."

3. Wait till the end of this year for a new model they are planning to release called the Heatpro. They would credit me for tundra then i would have to pay the difference  approx $1000 according to whom Ive been in contact with.  No specs are available yet because its still in testing phase so dont know anything about it. Rumor is its a tundra version of the max caddy.

4. Take the menards credit.  Load the furnace in the back of my pickup with tailgate down and drive down a bumpy gravel road. Then buy a propane furnace. 


Though option 4 is how I feel most days I enjoy cutting splitting and burning wood. Grew up with it and hated it. Swore I would never burn wood when I finally owned my own house and constantly tried to talk my parents into propane. Long and behold first thing i did was put in a wood furnace. My dad enjoys giving me a hard time about it. Even tho he burns propane now..  

 I really just wanted my money back because I was set on buying a max caddy when all my problems started but now that is not an option I need some input. First has anyone received one of the new units? Are they actually fixed. Second has anyone heard any more details on the new model they claim they are developing. Third has anyone taken the credit and fixed their old units. This thought has crossed my mind as I used to weld for a living and could easily do it. My concern is if the front of the furnace has cracked what else has cracked and do I really want to leave it burning for 10 hours a day while im at work. (Correction that would be six hours since I cant ever get the burn times others seem to get.) I plan to tear it down and do good inspection inside the furnace just curious if anyone has done this already. Any input would be great. Sorry for the excessively long post..  I have lots of other questions but will start there for now. Thanks


----------



## DoubleB

Clayh88,
Welcome to hearth.  Thanks for posting and contributing your experiences to this thread.  

I was also only able to get in-store credit at Menards.  Not entirely a refund by my definition, and I still have a long ways to go of "free" purchases at Menards now, but will recover my money eventually.

Of your 4 options above, I think you can do more than one.  For me, I'm doing option 1 in the near term, to give me time to wisely decide whether to subsequently do option 2, 3, or other (Caddy, Max Caddy, Kuuma, or any other furnaces that might enter the market in the next year or two.)  I'm adding temp control to the damper and firebrick to the front of the damper to prevent the cracks from spreading.

It's encouraging to hear SBI report they are adding firebrick to the front of the firebox.  Not only is it a fix, but as we've figured on this thread it's actually the right fix, and also something you and I can do to our existing furnaces fairly easilt.

I plan on using my Tundra a year or two before deciding whether to purchase a new furnace to see if other owners can confirm the cracking has stopped (again, back to option 1).  I think my existing furnace will serve fine as long as the cracking is under control, which is something that I can mitigate and monitor.

I haven't heard of a larger Tundra, other than @bpwelding2005 made a post about it.  When I got my refund in March I specifically asked SBI which furnaces they have (present or future) other than Tundra that they would recommend to me, and their sales only mentioned the Caddy and Max Caddy.  

I cleaned out my furnace pretty well a few weeks ago, and didn't see any more cracks.  Although, I can only see so well, and certain cracks would be very easy to miss I suppose if they did exist.

A few times this winter I had trouble keeping my secondaries going, so I think all of my wood was probably on the moist side even all the other times the secondaries seemed fine.  Now that my wood stacks have had an extra year to dry (for 15/16 winter) I expect the Tundra will perform much better and be more enjoyable to operate.  I'd expect you would have the same success, unless you have other problems unrelated to wood (draft, chimney, etc.)  If so, that's a different troubleshooting exercise.  But I'd hang in there and keep burning wood, but that's just me.

Good luck!


----------



## brenndatomu

Good to hear that the current pool of thought about shielding the area subject to cracking is actually on the right track.
As I stated a couple posts back, I have acquired a Tundra (actually HeatMax) that has cracked and I just finished the install in the last couple weeks, just in time to fire it once during a particularly cold night. I made stainless steel shields that fit against the front of the firebox, bottom to top. I also put some ceramic insulation under the SS too. We'll see what that does.
I was going to weld the cracks first, but I decided to leave them alone to see if shielding this area made any real difference or not, you know, make one change at a time and all...anyways, I took pics of my mods and will post it here as soon as I can


----------



## brenndatomu

OK, I finally have a free moment to update y'all on my recent Tundra mods as mentioned in my previous post. I decided to install this "failed" Tundra that I recently acquired, as an "add-on" to my Yukon. Yukon is working on a "EPA" firebox to meet the new EPA regs and I figure the Tundra will buy me some time to figure out what is gonna replace my current Yook down the road. (The Yukon works great now since I have modded the firebox for a proper secondary burn, but it is also now a bit too finicky for my wife to run. I am on call all the time for work and I need something the wife can run without any problems, hence a future Yukon upgrade or replacement is likely to happen)
Anyways, this Tundra is a first year model (#352 I think it is (or was ) the PO pulled it out to replace it with a Max Caddy after the cracks happened. The cracks are only two, each about 1/2" long, at the top corners of the loading door. I was gonna drill/weld the cracks, then install the new heat shields, but then I thought, hey, it's already cracked, I'm gonna leave the cracks alone, see if shielding this area will actually stop the cracks where they are. If so, then it should also stop them from happening in the first place. I also did this same mod on my sisters new Tundra before it was fired the first time. I also have temp controllers to install on 'em both too, just hasn't happened yet.
I was gonna insulate using firebrick but couldn't figure out how to keep them in place. After doing what I did, I realize that the bricks could be installed the same way I did the SS, just hafta cut 1" or so off of the front of the bricks on the sides to tuck the new bricks in the "slot".

I went to a local fab shop where I buy metal sometimes looking for some "scrap" SS, or a cutoff/drop. I should have asked what it was gonna cost because after they sheared a piece off, the total at checkout surprised me a bit. $55 for a 3" x 6' piece of 1/4" 316 SS (enough to do two sets of shields) 304 would have been fine, but I guess the 316 is what they had laying around. 316 is actually a lil better for high temp applications, but either would've worked.

I removed the factory heat shield that is on back of the "air intake" box. To remove it is just two bolts, one straight up, in the middle above the loading door, and one one the back side, again in the middle. The shield will drop right out once unbolted. Here's a pic of it out.
Back side... 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Front...
	

		
			
		

		
	




Then I removed the front firebricks. Unbeknownst to me, there is 1/8" thick ceramic insulation blanket behind the bricks. Mine had creosote flakes piled up behind them, I guess from above the baffle. Anyways, I removed the rest of the firebricks so I could clean out behind the blanket, but it was stuck fast in some spots and quickly disintegrated when I tried to work it loose. I bought a replacement blanket(s) from a guy on fleabay (2 pieces 18" tall x 24" long needed)
Once the new blanket was in place, this is what I had...
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 sorry bout the pic quality, turns out that taking good pics of the backside of the front of your firebox is a bit challenging!  You are looking at the backside of what is at the right side of the door when you are facing the furnace.

I cut the SS to fit around the air intake box and a slot to fit over the firebrick retainer tab.
These pieces are 18" tall x 3" wide...
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Then I cut some 1/2" thick x 3" wide ceramic insulation that I just happened to have layin around, to match the size/shape of the SS. It goes between the firebox wall and the SS...
...like this...
	

		
			
		

		
	




I re-installed the firebrick, which BTW I had to trim up just a bit to get the extra clearance needed. The parts break down pics show the top rear brick (sides) being notched out to clear the tabs that hold the back of the secondary air tubes to the firebox wall, mine weren't notched, so I notched them 1/4" or so. Many off the bricks also had a bit of "flashing" on the sides left from where they were cast, this had to be cleaned off all the bricks to get things to fit also. Once that was done everything fit like a glove
Here it is assembled, left side of firebox... 
	

		
			
		

		
	



	

		
			
		

		
	
 right side...
	

		
			
		

		
	




Here is final assembly, notice the factory air intake box shield is back in place and covers the edge of the SS (very top of the pic)  
	

		
			
		

		
	



BTW, it is easier to take these pics using a mirror, like in this last pic


----------



## DoubleB

Brenndatomu,
Very nice!  Thanks for the helpful post.  I'll have to study it again once I get around to my Tundra.

How hard was it to remove the air intake box bolts?  Has the heat made them risky/difficult, or were they easy?


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> How hard was it to remove the air intake box bolts? Has the heat made them risky/difficult, or were they easy?


Not bad, they both broke free, turned a bit, then locked up. I ran them back in, sprayed the threads with WD40 (accessible under the intake damper flap) then worked 'em back and forth a bit, they came right out.
Some of the firebrick was a lil difficult to work loose, they were kinda tight because of ashes in the cracks and the creosote falling down behind the insulation blanket, but some patience and a gentle touch will bring 'em out in one piece.
Speaking of the insulation blanket, I thought of not putting them back in, so to get a bit more heat transfer to the firebox walls ( I have no clearance to combustible issues at all) but decided that doing so may affect the secondary burn time, so back in they went


----------



## brenndatomu

clayh88 said:


> I really just wanted my money back because I was set on buying a max caddy when all my problems started but now that is not an option I need some input.


Just a thought, maybe you could work out a deal with someone that is getting ready to make a large purchase at Menards (post an ad?) You use your credit to buy their mower/logsplitter/hot tub, whatever, then they pay you cash for it. I know my co-worker has spent tens of thousands at Menards over the last year doing their whole house remodel, sometimes 5Gs in one trip...


----------



## brenndatomu

I hafta say, my first impression after 2 firings, being used to the raw firepower of the mighty mighty Yukon, the heat output of the Tundra is, well, underwhelming. BUT, to be perfectly fair, it is a new install, so I am still getting used to 'er, still tweaking my duct pressures, and my draft is on the low side of the -.04" to -.06" called for since it is not that cold out (40 ish overnight) Also, I have been loading light (like 3 small to medium sized splits) so as to not roast us outta here, and if the Tundra is like my Defender stove in the fireplace, there is a _big_ difference in heat output between a light load and cramming 'er full!
So I guess actual judgement shall be reserved for this fall/winter...I need to quit foolin with this thing and get my AC serviced and ready to go. Pretty hard to not mess with a new stove installed in the late spring though, ya know?!


----------



## DoubleB

Regarding the cracking around the loading door, @brenndatomu showed his metal heat shield in post #323, and mentioned firebrick as an alternative.  I did that this past weekend.

After measuring everything, I cut firebrick to the following dimensions:  





The 1st piece in the above goes on the top front of the firebox, the 2nd piece goes on the bottom front, and the 3rd piece goes on the side top toward the front.  After cutting the 4 1/2” wide firebrick to 3” wide for the 1st and 2nd pieces, I had a pair of 1 3/8” wide strips that I was going to toss but they ended up fitting on the side bottom toward the front.  The firebox is symmetrical, so I had to multiply all of the above pieces by 2.  The below picture shows the final pieces; the pieces on the green kneepad go on the front of the firebox (as looking from inside the furnace), and the pieces off the green kneepad go on the sides of the firebox.  (*note that I had some firebrick left over from a previous furnace, so I used that, therefore the burn marks.)




This is the top right corner (as seen from inside the rear of the furnace, on the door hinge side)  




This is the bottom right corner:




This shows the same bricks looking sideways at the top:




And sideways at the bottom:




As mentioned, the install looks symmetrical on the other side.

I didn’t remove the baffle around the air inlet damper, as Brenndatomu did.  I installed the bottom front firebrick, then the top front firebrick, then the top side firebrick, then the bottom side firebrick(s).  The side bricks hold the front bricks in place.  The secondary burn rectangular tube holds the top side brick in place and the top side brick holds the bottom side brick(s) in place (just like the original Tundra bricks did).  

I kept to 1/16” in my dimensions and cuts, but probably could have relaxed that a bit.  The 2.25” dimension on the top side firebrick left things a little tight to wiggle the bottom side bricks in below, and I could have made that 2.25” a little bigger with enough meat remaining to be restrained on the top by the rectangular tube for the secondaries.  

I had fully intended to cut a single brick for the side bottom, but when I looked at the 1 3/8” cutoffs, they added up to about the right size so I used them instead.  I might yet replace them with a single piece, and it won’t be a big deal to cut them if I decide to.  

I have a cheap tile wetsaw from a bathroom remodel.  It cut the firebrick like butter.  However, the bricks were pretty saturated by the time I was done (also from blasting them clean with the garden hose), so it took them a few days in the sun to dry enough for the final install to avoid putting that moisture into my furnace.

The bottom of the loading door still is directly exposed to the firebox.  I suppose I could line that with brick, too, but I’ll wait to do that.  I’m thinking the bottom might not be quite as hot, and I’ll measure that this winter with the IR gun.

This spring I noticed my loading door handle is not as stiff to unlatch as the floor model at Menards.  I remember my handle took some heft to unlatch when new, but not much anymore.  I looked closer, and found that the firebox steel on the side of the door is warped a little to relieve the stress in the latch when the handle is closed.  Just another indicator in my opinion that the front of the firebox should be lined with brick.

So, hopefully this brick will help stop the cracks in posts #101, #120, and #316 and prevent the latch from relaxing further.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Just curious, why did you use firebrick and not a ceramic blanket?  I would think a ceramic blanket would insulate better than firebrick...especially the non-insulating type of firebrick which looks like you used.


----------



## DoubleB

Good question.  Answer is simply that I don't know much about ceramic blanket, nor the difference between insulating or non-insulating firebrick, nor a good place to touch and feel and buy these items.  But I'm willing to learn, I'll take any info.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I'm sure any firebrick is better than none, however if you Google insulating firebrick you'll see there is such a thing.  

http://www.traditionaloven.com/articles/81/insulating-fire-bricks


----------



## DoubleB

Thanks for the info JrHawk9.  The leftover firebrick from the old furnace was heavier than the same sized bricks from the Tundra, so that sounds consistent with the description in your above article that insulated aren't as dense, and that the ones I used for the front probably aren't insulated.  

Last winter I took temps on the front outside of the furnace with the IR gun, so I'll compare with the uninsulated firebrick to see how well I do.  Like you said, I guess anything is better than the nothing that was there.


----------



## brenndatomu

Nice work DB! I'm sure that was a lot cheaper than the way I did it. Gonna be kinda interesting to see exactly how Drolet does (did) this mod.



DoubleB said:


> This spring I noticed my loading door handle is not as stiff to unlatch as the floor model at Menards


Check section 5.1.3 (page 26 in my manual) it tells how to adjust that door latch tension.



JRHAWK9 said:


> Just curious, why did you use firebrick and not a ceramic blanket? I would think a ceramic blanket would insulate better than firebrick...especially the non-insulating type of firebrick which looks like you used.


I think any firebrick will provide some protection (shielding) from those intense temps of a huge glowing bed of coals.  Basically, lighter bricks insulate better than heavier ones.
I think the main thing is gonna be just shielding the front panel from the fire more so than actually "insulating". I think when comparing the temps on the front now, vs pre shield, it will be much lower now. Much more even across the total area of the one piece (mostly) panel that forms the front of the furnace.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I think any firebrick will provide some protection (shielding) from those intense temps of a huge glowing bed of coals.  Basically, lighter bricks insulate better than heavier ones.
> I think the main thing is gonna be just shielding the front panel from the fire more so than actually "insulating". I think when comparing the temps on the front now, vs pre shield, it will be much lower now. Much more even across the total area of the one piece (mostly) panel that forms the front of the furnace.



I agree, but just thought I'd mention it seeing he went through the process.  He may have been able to do the same process with a different product and have better results.  Who knows though.


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> He may have been able to do the same process with a different product and have better results.


I appreciate the mention, it's always worth knowing what better options might be.

My backup plan (if the old firebrick was too crumbly or something) was to swing by Menards for a 6-pack of Vogelzang firebrick.  The specs online don't say insulated or non-insulated.  But, it says the pack is 25 lbs and I'm guessing 4 lb per brick is probably uninsulated, based on what the bricks felt like last weekend.  

But if those were the only bricks readily available, I'd still probably do that and think they would make a large improvement over nothing.

Thanks everyone.


----------



## brenndatomu

Interesting info on firebrick...https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjADahUKEwiSxICkhqXHAhWNjpIKHfbkATQ&url=http://ceramicartsdaily.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/firebrick-types.pdf&ei=3QXMVdLhIo2dygT2yYegAw&usg=AFQjCNH1dNlVTBVeWR0hL-45Ub-tpEO7OA



DoubleB said:


> I have a cheap tile wetsaw from a bathroom remodel. It cut the firebrick like butter. However, the bricks were pretty saturated by the time I was done (also from blasting them clean with the garden hose), so it took them a few days in the sun to dry enough for the final install to avoid putting that moisture into my furnace.


BTW, low or medium duty firebrick (what is in most wood furnaces) can be cut dry with a diamond blade, no problem, especially on a small project like this. Gotta wear a good dust mask though...silicosis and all...
We make road cuts (concrete with rebar), cut everything from cast iron, ductile iron, steel, etc with our Stihl concrete saw at work, all done dry, diamond blades last for 6 months or so depending on circumstances and run time. Gotta admit, we are pretty hard on them though


----------



## Builderml

1st post on this forum, been doing some reading and found a lot of great info.I just purchased a Tundra and will be doing the install in the next few weeks. I have a question about the Ductwork which I will be calling SBI this week and questioning them about it also. So I see they want to keep the static pressure in the ducts at .2wc. So with the 2-8" collars they provide that's roughly 660cfm in total or 330cfm per 8" supply @ .2wc. My question is why do they have a 4 speed blower that goes 900,1000,1200 and 1400cfm on high. I am wondering what you guys ended up doing with your installs and what calculations you used? The Ductwork is being installed just for the Tundra itself.


----------



## Wisneaky

Builderml said:


> 1st post on this forum, been doing some reading and found a lot of great info.I just purchased a Tundra and will be doing the install in the next few weeks. I have a question about the Ductwork which I will be calling SBI this week and questioning them about it also. So I see they want to keep the static pressure in the ducts at .2wc. So with the 2-8" collars they provide that's roughly 660cfm in total or 330cfm per 8" supply @ .2wc. My question is why do they have a 4 speed blower that goes 900,1000,1200 and 1400cfm on high. I am wondering what you guys ended up doing with your installs and what calculations you used? The Ductwork is being installed just for the Tundra itself.


There is a lot of factors when it comes to duct work. For example the length of runs, register supply size, number of heat register vents, and return pressure to name a few. So depending on those factors and pressures you may need to increase or decrease the blower speed to maintain .2wc


----------



## Builderml

I do have a preliminary plan that I came up with showing the runs of duct I will be doing. I will try to post the layout when I get home or tomorrow and see what you guys think.
I will also add that I did call SBI prior to purchase to confirm that they did resolve the issue of cracking and I was told they did. SBI did also state that it had a lot to do with improper use and install. Just to let you guys know I have Serial #1993 with late 2014 production. I purchased from L&M farm and fleet supply. $1249.00 on sale. $1460 delivered to my driveway in CT. L&M was great to deal with and I would purchase from them again.


----------



## Wisneaky

Builderml said:


> I do have a preliminary plan that I came up with showing the runs of duct I will be doing. I will try to post the layout when I get home or tomorrow and see what you guys think.
> I will also add that I did call SBI prior to purchase to confirm that they did resolve the issue of cracking and I was told they did. SBI did also state that it had a lot to do with improper use and install. Just to let you guys know I have Serial #1993 with late 2014 production. I purchased from L&M farm and fleet supply. $1249.00 on sale. $1460 delivered to my driveway in CT. L&M was great to deal with and I would purchase from them again.


I disagree with their statement that it has to do with improper use and install. If that would have been the case than why did they reimburse us "me being one" that had the issues with no objections at all?


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah, SBI is using that as a cop out IMO. I'm sure there were _some_ "improper" installs, but building steel fireboxes is not exactly a new science and there are tons of 'em out there that have had the bag run off of 'em for years and no cracks. I guess me personally it would have been easier to just accept, forget and move on with the whole thing if they just admitted to inferior metal or a design/manufacturing weakness, whatever.



Builderml said:


> I purchased from L&M farm and fleet supply. $1249.00 on sale. $1460 delivered to my driveway in CT. L&M was great to deal with and I would purchase from them again.


Good deal! 
So would you mind posting some pics of the front of it...outside, and then on the inside of the door on either side (back side of the front of the firebox)


----------



## Builderml

Ok here is the ductwork layout i have to date:
The Blue is Returns = 2-10"
The Red is 1st Supply= 8" round with  3-5" & 1-6" supplies about 445 CFM
The Yellow is 2nd Supply=8" round with  1-7" & 2-5" supplies about 415 CFM
I will be using take offs with dampers at each supply branch just in case i need to play with airflow alittle.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, SBI is using that as a cop out IMO. I'm sure there were _some_ "improper" installs, but building steel fireboxes is not exactly a new science and there are tons of 'em out there that have had the bag run off of 'em for years and no cracks. I guess me personally it would have been easier to just accept, forget and move on with the whole thing if they just admitted to inferior metal or a design/manufacturing weakness, whatever.
> 
> 
> Good deal!
> So would you mind posting some pics of the front of it...outside, and then on the inside of the door on either side (back side of the front of the firebox)


----------



## Builderml

I love seeing pictures myself so its only fair being a new guy i post some. I think they changed the steel plate above the fire tubes its now made of firebrick material. I could be wrong but i think i saw a picture on here that showed it in steel. I'll keep posting more pictures as install continues  and hope maybe it will help some others that may think of installing one in the future. First i need to start with lighting a fire outside in the yard with it before bringing it in so i don't smoke out the house with curing stuff.


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## Wisneaky

Looks the same to me.


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## Builderml

My exact words to the SBI tech, "So your telling me the issues with the fireboxes cracking has been taken care of " Reply was "yes". I followed up by telling him consider having another one sold and thank you for your help. 
I did notice a change. If you look at post #328 (he is installing firebrick in the front. above the door the metal on mine goes from firebrick to firebrick. where his looks like it stops just past the door so he had room to run the firebrick up to the top along side the metal.


----------



## Wisneaky

Builderml said:


> My exact words to the SBI tech, "So your telling me the issues with the fireboxes cracking has been taken care of " Reply was "yes". I followed up by telling him consider having another one sold and thank you for your help.


You should have asked him how they actually fixed the problem. I don't know if anyone actually knows. Maybe they actually didn't do anything?


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## maple1

Late 2014 production - can't remember timing of that stuff but would they have been doing it the new way by then?


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## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> Looks the same to me.


Ditto here.
I wonder when they changed things...build date could mean everything. Maybe hafta get into something made in the last few months?


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## Wisneaky

maple1 said:


> Late 2014 production - can't remember timing of that stuff but would they have been doing it the new way by then?


It was early this year before I even knew of the cracking issue so probably not.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Ditto here.
> I wonder when they changed things...build date could mean everything. Maybe hafta get into something made in the last few months?


 I was thinking the same thing about old production models still forsale.  I also asked him, so whats available for purchase now is good to go. Again reply was yes.
I guess time will tell.


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## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> It was early this year before I even knew of the cracking issue so probably not.


Yeah, I would think hafta get one made since this past spring at the earliest...after the "cahcah hit the fan" so to speak with a bunch of people finding cracks within a short time frame


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## maple1

I was thinking it was almost spring before it was really coming to light.


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## Wisneaky

maple1 said:


> I was thinking it was almost spring before it was really coming to light.


Yeah I just looked it was early March.


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## Builderml

If i again remember correctly i think serial numbers of problem units were pre 800-900 maybe 500 serial number models. At #1993 maybe they were aware of the issue made corrections or different material supplier whatever they did had been done. One can only hope.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I guess time will tell


Well, if it were me (well, it was me when I installed my sisters back in the spring) I'd throw some firebrick in there just as a preventative. See my post #323 or @DoubleB s post shortly thereafter on what he did with his. Even though mine and DoubleBs were done post crackage...better to head things off IMO, unless you have an install that would be easy to swap out if they need to warranty, then meh, go for it


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## Wisneaky

Builderml said:


> If i again remember correctly i think serial numbers of problem units were pre 800-900 maybe 500 serial number models. At #1993 maybe they were aware of the issue made corrections or different material supplier whatever they did had been done. One can only hope.


Mine was actually low 300 serial number.


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## maple1

Builderml said:


> If i again remember correctly i think serial numbers of problem units were pre 800-900 maybe 500 serial number models. At #1993 maybe they were aware of the issue made corrections or different material supplier whatever they did had been done. One can only hope.



That could be possible too.


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## brenndatomu

I was curious to see if Drolet had the new big brother to the Tundra listed on their website yet...nope. But while I was there I looked to see if anything looked like it had changed yet on the Tundra, I looked up the parts diagram in the manual (showing a revision date of 09/09/2015) and yup, there it is, part # 72 and 73 in the diagram. The new firebricks for the front of the firebox...click for full size


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## maple1

I still haven't seen one of these in person - does that mean that the furnace in  the pics posted on the last page of the late 2014 build (post 344) doesn't have those?


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## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> I still haven't seen one of these in person - does that mean that the furnace in  the pics posted on the last page of the late 2014 build (post 344) doesn't have those?


Doesn't look like it to me


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## 3fordasho

So the question is can they be added to earlier furnaces?   Who wants to call SBI and find out ?  ;-)

I just installed tundra #2 in one of my outbuildings - also a later 2014 build.





brenndatomu said:


> I was curious to see if Drolet had the new big brother to the Tundra listed on their website yet...nope. But while I was there I looked to see if anything looked like it had changed yet on the Tundra, I looked up the parts diagram in the manual (showing a revision date of 09/09/2015) and yup, there it is, part # 72 and 73 in the diagram. The new firebricks for the front of the firebox...click for full size
> View attachment 161934


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## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> So the question is can they be added to earlier furnaces?   Who wants to call SBI and find out ?  ;-)
> 
> I just installed tundra #2 in one of my outbuildings - also a later 2014 build.


I'm sure they can...see @DoubleB s post #328 on the previous page. After I went to all the work of making a SS shield I realized that using firebrick would have actually been_ really_ simple to do and a whole lot cheaper! If I had it to do over again, (sigh) I would just get a box of the firebrick that TSC, Menards and everybody else stocks, make my own. Firebrick is very easy to cut with a diamond blade ($15) on a 4" angle grinder


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> I'm sure they can...see @DoubleB s post #328 on the previous page. After I went to all the work of making a SS shield I realized that using firebrick would have actually been_ really_ simple to do and a whole lot cheaper! If I had it to do over again, (sigh) I would just get a box of the firebrick that TSC, Menards and everybody else stocks, make my own. Firebrick is very easy to cut with a diamond blade ($15) on a 4" angle grinder




Yea, that's probably the best approach. I just compared the old vs new part listing and they changed sizing on quite a few of the firebrick so it would not be as simple as buying the new pieces up by the door.   Also noticed the baffle part # changed and description went from Vermiculite to C-cast.   Still gotta think that sending out some new firebrick would be cheaper than replacing cracked furnaces.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> I just installed tundra #2 in one of my outbuildings - also a later 2014 build.


If you were thinking of doing the firebrick mod, my advice would be to do it before you fire it the first time. It's much easier (and cleaner ) to get the existing firebrick apart before ash gets down in the cracks and kinda locks 'em together.
And as I mentioned back on page 13 (post # 323) when I went to pull mine apart there was some creosote that had worked it's way behind the ceramic insulation that is behind the firebrick on the sides, then it wouldn't go back together without cleaning the creosote out. When I tried to get the rest of the firebrick out some of them were stuck to the ceramic, and it (the ceramic) just fell apart, so I had to replace that then too. I thought about leaving it out but decided it was there for a reason so...


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> If you were thinking of doing the firebrick mod, my advice would be to do it before you fire it the first time. It's much easier (and cleaner ) to get the existing firebrick apart before ash gets down in the cracks and kinda locks 'em together.
> And as I mentioned back on page 13 (post # 323) when I went to pull mine apart there was some creosote that had worked it's way behind the ceramic insulation that is behind the firebrick on the sides, then it wouldn't go back together without cleaning the creosote out. When I tried to get the rest of the firebrick out some of them were stuck to the ceramic, and it (the ceramic) just fell apart, so I had to replace that then too. I thought about leaving it out but decided it was there for a reason so...




Understood -   Good thing I didn't have that break in fire last night ;-)   Did get my flue temp monitoring all set up like I did on my first install. 
I'll do the firebrick mod on this new one but the other stays like it is..  if it cracks - well that is what the warranty is for...     Sad part is this new one is super easy to get out if necessary - the other, well that's in the basement.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> Sad part is this new one is super easy to get out if necessary


  It does usually seem to work that way doesn't?!


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> I did notice a change. If you look at post #328 (he is installing firebrick in the front. above the door the metal on mine goes from firebrick to firebrick. where his looks like it stops just past the door so he had room to run the firebrick up to the top along side the metal.



I think you're right that your front baffle is wider than mine, but it looks like maybe 1/2" or so on each side.  Similar to the other responses, I agree that the wider baffle is going to be of little help.  Firebrick or equivalent against the front is the better solution.

I still view SBI overall favorably since they stood behind their product very well for me, but that's diminishing.  I really don't believe much of what they say anymore.  Doesn't mean they don't have good products or support; just that I encourage you to be very skeptical of any statements they give you.  Many people have asked, we still haven't heard an actual answer for the cause or solution for the cracking, other than to blame a multitude of operators, yet they promise it's fixed.  That's the same thing you heard and by your pictures it's clearly not fixed.

Anyways, I'll let you be the judge.  Since you already are in progress I'd install the firebrick on the front before you use it and you'll probably be fine.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I think you're right that your front baffle is wider than mine, but it looks like maybe 1/2" or so on each side


Same PL66012 part # on all of them...


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## 3fordasho

Tundra install #2 - this one installed in a 40x60' quonset style building- furnace is in a small office - heat ducts dump into the open area- the radiant is plenty to heat the office area.


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## STIHLY DAN

That will work a lot better if you tie the return into the heated space. Be a lot less dangerous and conform to the installation instructions, They may not honor the warranty with an incorrect installation.


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## brenndatomu

You do the brick mod already? @3fordasho ?


----------



## DoubleB

Gosh, you just try to post a couple nice pics and then all the feedback starts coming.  So I'll give mine...  

Did you make the stand for the Tundra's dimensions, or did you luck out with one that already fit?  Curious about the wheels--I assume they lock in place, but how often do you plan to relocate this furnace?  Just don't relocate it into a cargo trailer...  

Also, how do you plan to replace the filter?  Looks like you'll have to unscrew the filter kit each time.  Had you considered mounting it on the rear of the blower box so you could pull the filter towards your entry door handle?


----------



## 3fordasho

I made the stand to fit.  The wheels also have jack screws that allow about .5" rise, the wheels only touch when the screws are all the way retracted.  My flue wall thimble is 45" high, a match for the max caddy which has the highest flue exit I could find- I didn't want the lower exit height of the tundra to lock me into only using a tundra in the future.  A caddy, max caddy or either Kuuma could be made to work with the appropriate spacing off the floor.  I don't plan on moving it - I was just going to use some adjustable leveling feet but these happened to be laying around in the scrap bin at work.

good suggestion for the filter kit, I am considering moving it to the other side and then ducting thru the wall into the same room the hot air ducts are venting into.








DoubleB said:


> Gosh, you just try to post a couple nice pics and then all the feedback starts coming.  So I'll give mine...
> 
> Did you make the stand for the Tundra's dimensions, or did you luck out with one that already fit?  Curious about the wheels--I assume they lock in place, but how often do you plan to relocate this furnace?  Just don't relocate it into a cargo trailer...
> 
> Also, how do you plan to replace the filter?  Looks like you'll have to unscrew the filter kit each time.  Had you considered mounting it on the rear of the blower box so you could pull the filter towards your entry door handle?


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> You do the brick mod already? @3fordasho ?




I did but not to the extent you or others have, I simply cut two L shaped pieces and placed them as shown in the attached pic.
I figure my flue temp monitoring keeps firebox temps under control so I'm less likely to have cracking issues.


----------



## DoubleB

3fordasho said:


> A caddy, max caddy or either Kuuma could be made to work with the appropriate spacing off the floor.



Very smart for thinking ahead...



3fordasho said:


> I figure my flue temp monitoring keeps firebox temps under control so I'm less likely to have cracking issues.



If I remember correctly you heated 3400 sq ft with your 1st Tundra and ran your temp control from day 1 without any cracking problems.  Looks like your partial firebrick can only help.


----------



## 3fordasho

I've noticed something interesting on both my Tundra installs -  when the firebox is heating up but before the fan kicks on, one of the 8" outlets will be warm and the other cold. 
Since my second install just dumps into the main building above a small office, I went up there and sure enough the warm pipe was dumping warm air out, but the other was sucking cool air down to the exchanger area.   I would have expected both pipes to be warm and cool air coming in thru the filter box....    I guess the supplied 1" filter is enough to prevent gravity flow?

I guess that's why I 've never seen a gravity system with filters in it....    I wonder what happens with the wood furnaces that have only 1-8" (or larger) outlet?


----------



## DoubleB

3fordasho said:


> the warm pipe was dumping warm air out, but the other was sucking cool air down to the exchanger area.



That's interesting. I wouldn't have anticipated that, but I guess it makes sense if the 8" outlets are for separate ducts and at least one has enough vertical rise.  I haven't noticed that happen to mine, FWIW.  I intentionally dumped both of my outlets into a plenum right away (picture in post #22) in order to have identical pressure drop, and thus the same cooling through each side of the firebox.  Doing so probably also mitigates that chances of what you are seeing.

Another reason it's interesting is because it makes me wonder how much longer (if any) it takes your blower to kick on.  If you have 60 deg air from the shop coming into the top of the plenum from one "outlet", you might have 180 deg air going back out the other outlet and your blower snap disk in the middle might still only register the average of 120F and not kick on.  I don't imagine you've had that problem otherwise you would have reported it.  But we've seen every few weeks or months someone will appear asking why their blower isn't turning on with a full fire.  Have you noticed anything along these lines that might add to our knowledge base here?




3fordasho said:


> I would have expected both pipes to be warm and cool air coming in thru the filter box



Maybe because the return air is inside your office?  Do you still get air coming into one of the outlets if you leave your office door open?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

[quote="DoubleB, post: 1972547, member: 
Maybe because the return air is inside your office?  Do you still get air coming into one of the outlets if you leave your office door open?[/quote]
This is exactly it. furnace rm in a negative pressure, heated space in an over pressurized state.


----------



## 3fordasho

DoubleB said:


> That's interesting. I wouldn't have anticipated that, but I guess it makes sense if the 8" outlets are for separate ducts and at least one has enough vertical rise.  I haven't noticed that happen to mine, FWIW.  I intentionally dumped both of my outlets into a plenum right away (picture in post #22) in order to have identical pressure drop, and thus the same cooling through each side of the firebox.  Doing so probably also mitigates that chances of what you are seeing.
> 
> Another reason it's interesting is because it makes me wonder how much longer (if any) it takes your blower to kick on.  If you have 60 deg air from the shop coming into the top of the plenum from one "outlet", you might have 180 deg air going back out the other outlet and your blower snap disk in the middle might still only register the average of 120F and not kick on.  I don't imagine you've had that problem otherwise you would have reported it.  But we've seen every few weeks or months someone will appear asking why their blower isn't turning on with a full fire.  Have you noticed anything along these lines that might add to our knowledge base here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe because the return air is inside your office?  Do you still get air coming into one of the outlets if you leave your office door open?




I'd say the blowers on both installs work as intended - usually starting with in 15-20 minutes from a cold start,  less on a reload, then running continuous for several hours or more depending on load size.

The office install is with in a few feet of a wide open 32" door and one of two windows open to the rest of the building. So return air flow was not restricted.

In the house install both 8" ducts dump into the same propane furnace plenum, yet one will be warm, other cool when the tundra blower is not running.


----------



## DoubleB

3fordasho said:


> In the house install both 8" ducts dump into the same propane furnace plenum, yet one will be warm, other cool when the tundra blower is not running.



Huh, I'm stumped and curious.  I've never noticed that on mine, and frequently noticed both warming equally, but I will pay closer attention this fall.

What about the end of a burn cycle when the blower cycles on/off for 1-2 hours on coals--Do you get cold air coming into one of the outlets then?  Or is it just at startup?

More so, what happens if you pull the plug to simulate a power outage?  My concern would be that you might not get good cooling in an outage if your cold air is coming in from the top.

If you don't think it's a problem, then it's not my place to try to diagnose anything.  It just strikes me as not optimal, and potentially problematic because I would imagine that SBI probably hasn't seen that in their testing.  Although I have absolutely nothing but speculation upon which to base that statement!  I just know that when I can't explain why something unusual happens, I often assume that I have a problem in the making.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> I've noticed something interesting on both my Tundra installs - when the firebox is heating up but before the fan kicks on, one of the 8" outlets will be warm and the other cold.


Are both pipes identical in length and shape? And do you have dampers in them for setting static pressure, doesn't appear so, dunno if that would affect gravity heating any though?

Speaking of the filter blocking gravity flow...
I noticed a couple years ago that the area in my Yukon furnace where the filter goes is wider than the filter by at least an inch. I called Yukon about it, they said that is for airflow during power outage. They said even better was to remove the filter if you are home. They had to have the gap to be able to be UL certified to run during power outage...I think they said the they are the only ones that are (UL certified for power fail) Not all the return air gets filtered but most does I would guess.
Point is, maybe that is why SBI  made the gaps so wide where they stamped the blower box for cutting out the side where you want the filter to be. The other two sides still have all the holes for a lil airflow during power fail?


----------



## brenndatomu

It would be an interesting experiment...build the fire on one side of the firebox more so, (from a cold firebox) see if you can make the heat go to the duct on the fire side, I bet it does


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> Are both pipes identical in length and shape? And do you have dampers in them for setting static pressure, doesn't appear so, dunno if that would affect gravity heating any though?
> 
> Speaking of the filter blocking gravity flow...
> I noticed a couple years ago that the area in my Yukon furnace where the filter goes is wider than the filter by at least an inch. I called Yukon about it, they said that is for airflow during power outage. They said even better was to remove the filter if you are home. They had to have the gap to be able to be UL certified to run during power outage...I think they said the they are the only ones that are (UL certified for power fail) Not all the return air gets filtered but most does I would guess.
> Point is, maybe that is why SBI  made the gaps so wide where they stamped the blower box for cutting out the side where you want the filter to be. The other two sides still have all the holes for a lil airflow during power fail?




On both installs the outlet runs are identical on each furnace and both use the right and left outlets, not front or back.  No dampers.   Next time I fire one up I am going to pull the filter out and I bet it will gravity flow up both pipes just fine....  I think the filter is just enough restriction that the air finds it easier to flow down one outlet and up the other.


----------



## 3fordasho

I've been getting inquires about the flue temp control add on I've installed on my first and now second tundra install- much was detailed in posts 261 and 306 of this thread.
I never detailed how I set all the parameters/settings in the Omega temp controller so here they are:
code  -  description     -             *setting*
HIAH -  high limit alarm  -          *3000* (default setting)
LoAH  -  low limit alarm -            *255*-275
HdAL - deviation high alarm  -    *3000* (default setting)
LdAL  - deviation low alarm   -    * -999*  (default setting)
Loc   -    parameter lock    -        * 808*   (unlocks rest of parameters)
AHYS -  alarm hysteresis   -        *100*
AOP  -   alarm output assign  -     *111* (default setting)
CtrL   -   control mode   -               *onoF*
Act   -      n/a      -                          *rE*  (default setting)
P    -      proportion band     -         *30* (default setting)
I     -       time of integral      -          *100* (default setting)
d    -       time of derivative    -         *50.0* (default setting)
Ctl    -    control period      -             *20* (default setting)
CHYS  - control hysteresis    -         *200*
InP    -     thermocouple type    -      *5*    (selects J-type thermocouple)
Scb   -   input shift           -             * 0*  (default setting)
FILt   -   pv input filter         -            *1* (default setting)
Fru    -  input hz and C or F      -       *60F*   (60 hz , F)
SPL  -    low limit of set value   -         *0* (default setting)
SPH   -  upper limit of set value   -    *1000*


so out of all these there are a few you may want to adjust depending on your install.

First there is the temp SV (set value) that is always displayed by the green LEDs.  I've got mine set at 625f.  This is the value I've decided I don't want my flue temps to exceed.  Once the flue temps hit this value the controller closes the air inlet damper.
When does it re-open?  that is controlled by CHYS control hysteresis and I set mine at 200 - means the air inlet opens back up at 625-200=425f.   Factory default for is 2 - don't leave it there you'll cycle your damper motor to death.  You may desire to play with these settings to fine tune operation.  Keep in mind that there is usually something else calling for the air inlet to be open for flue temps to hit the high end, either the reload timer, or thermostat, or if someone has inadvertantly left the manual damper switch in the open position.

Next there is the LoAH low limit alarm, I've currently got mine set at 255f.  Say you cold started your furnace or just reloaded on some coals.  You set your timer to 25mn to hold the damper open to get the new load hot so secondary burn can occur- but 25 mn wasn't really enough, secondary burn dies off and flue temps drop to 255f.  At this temp secondary burn is probably not happening and the furnace is probably smoking.  The low temp alarm kicks in and opens the air inlet.  How long does it stay open?, that depends on your AHYS alarm hysteresis setting and I've got mine set at 100 - so the damper closes again at 255+100=355f.   Again these settings you may want to play with to tune your furnace operation.


----------



## Matt78

First off I would like to say this site is great with a lot of great knowledgeable people. Thanks for the help setting up my install.(not done yet!). I'm going to do the setup 3fordasho described above. That is a lot of info to take in. Today I also added fire brick that doubleb did in an earlier post. Hoping to minimize or just eliminate any cracking.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> I've been getting inquires about the flue temp control add on I've installed on my first and now second tundra install


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...


Matt78 said:


> First off I would like to say this site is great with a lot of great knowledgeable people. Thanks for the help setting up my install.(not done yet!). I'm going to do the setup 3fordasho described above. That is a lot of info to take in. Today I also added fire brick that doubleb did in an earlier post. Hoping to minimize or just eliminate any cracking.
> 
> View attachment 162415
> View attachment 162416
> View attachment 162417


Nice work!
I really believe those two mods are gonna make for a durable, sweet running furnace!


----------



## Wisneaky

This is from a member on another site. 

Hello everybody I have received information from sbi about the extra firebrick on the newest models. If you go on drolets website and look at the manual you will see the new brick they added to the front. I have been sending emails back and forth to sbi about the added brick. Finally I got in touch will somebody knowledgeable and they let me know that a updated kit for our older models will be available in 3 to 4 weeks. They said to just email them around that time and they will ship the update kit out.


----------



## Matt78

Figures! Lol


----------



## DoubleB

Matt78 said:


> Today I also added fire brick



Hey Matt,
That's nice looking work.  Given that you also added firebrick on the bottom, you should be extra likely to avoid any cracking.  Judging by pictures on here of the cracks, I think the sides are the most important to protect, but I'm sure it helps to put it on the bottom too.  Too bad you/we didn't know about the retro kit from SBI, but I doubt their kit will have the firebrick on the bottom so you're still better off.


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Figures! Lol


Yeah, and nothing like waiting 'til the last minute! Better late than never I 'spose. 
Wonder if they will track people down or make you chase them for a kit?

Kinda wish I hadn't wasted the time n money to do the SS shield now...oh wells


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Wonder if they will track people down or make you chase them for a kit?



One would hope so, but I doubt it by now.




brenndatomu said:


> Kinda wish I hadn't wasted the time n money to do the SS shield now...oh wells



I also suspect they wouldn't send the kit to a furnace that's been "rescued". 

But I'd love someone to prove me wrong on either of the above!


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I also suspect they wouldn't send the kit to a furnace that's been "rescued".


Oh, I have no doubt about that. Not for warrantied stoves...
I would just buy a box of bricks, do my own, just seems simpler than what I did. I will still probably add the brick across the bottom, that's a good idea


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I would just buy a box of bricks, do my own, just seems simpler than what I did.



Oops, my misunderstanding.  I see what you were saying.


----------



## Matt78

Hey thanks guys. The drawing you provided doubleb was spot on and made it 100% easier! I'm going to go with what I have and see what happens. I didn't plan on the bricks at the bottom. Those where scrap pieces and I figured I'd throw em in there. I read somewhere that on the new furnaces they changed the style of brick. I wonder if they would send the newer style bricks for the whole furnace? The bricks that came with the furnace seem kinda cheep and light weight.


----------



## laynes69

The lightweight bricks while lighter and not as durable, they have better insulation properties which aid in better combustion. The higher the firebox temperatures, the cleaner the burn and higher heat output.


----------



## DoubleB

Matt78, glad the firebrick worked out so well for you.  

I noticed in your pictures that your furnace's firebrick looked quite gray, whereas the firebrick in mine was somewhat pink.  So perhaps they have changed it.

I was just at Menards and noticed they are selling the Tundras for $1599 again.  (But their display unit still doesn't have the firebrick in the front.)


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I was just at Menards and noticed they are selling the Tundras for $1599 again. (But their display unit still doesn't have the firebrick in the front.)


Our local store has had the same unit on display for a couple years. They (store employees) probably have no idea anything has changed


----------



## Buzz Saw

brenndatomu said:


> Our local store has had the same unit on display for a couple years. They (store employees) probably have no idea anything has changed



Not the only thing Menards employees are clueless on....


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> Not the only thing Menards employees are clueless on....


Einsteins compared to Lowes and HD though...and much less attitude


----------



## Buzz Saw

brenndatomu said:


> Einsteins compared to Lowes and HD though...and much less attitude


Not around my area. Menards employees are the least helpful that I deal with.  Ah well.  Back to burning wood.


----------



## lexybird

Oddly enough I found the light pumice bricks to be more durable and less likely to crack or bust up over a traditional  brittle fire brick  . You'd think it would be just the opposite


----------



## Builderml

Just an update on the install, I did the initial fire outside to try to keep the fumes in the house to a minimum, Used my best helper to get it down into the basement. Its times like this i am very happy to have a walk-out basement. Now time for the duct work future pictures to follow.





I had 2" to spare while backing up.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I had 2" to spare while backing up


Plenty of room! 



Builderml said:


> I did the initial fire outside


How'd that go? Short stack make for a weak fire?



Builderml said:


> Used my best helper to get it down into the basement


UNGH UNGH UNGH! (that's my Tim Allen-Tool Time grunt)


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Plenty of room!
> 
> 
> How'd that go? Short stack make for a weak fire?
> 
> 
> UNGH UNGH UNGH! (that's my Tim Allen-Tool Time grunt)



Initial fire went well. I guess have nothing to compare it to. Glad i did burn it outside it stunk outside can only imagine how it would have been if done inside the house. All i did was burn up some 2x lumber. I was surprised at the length of burn time. I loaded at 5pm with a little over 1/2 the firebox full of blocks. When i looked out the window at 3am i still had a few coals. Very very pleased with that. I had it running wide open.


----------



## Builderml

I guess i'll need to contact SBI to find out about the "kit" for the firebricks for the front face. Maybe something was lost in translation. When i asked " so all the units currently available for purchase now are good to go." Reply was "yes". Can't wait to hear the response now when i ask about the "new firebricks". Thank you hearth members for the wealth of information you provide to us new guys.


----------



## trx250r87

I emailed SBI a week or 2 ago and asked about the new parts (bricks and front damper). The person who I have been in contact with since I purchased my Tundra assured me that the parts would be sent as soon as they are available.

So far SBI has treated me VERY well!

Eric


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> new parts (bricks and front damper)


? They're changing something with the damper?
I guess there was an update on some of the older ones that had "sticking open" problems...


----------



## Matt78

Not tundra or heatmax related, but I did get to burn some wood in the old heatilator!


----------



## Builderml

Can someone fill me in on the "sticking issue" with the front damper? The reason i ask is when i did the initial fire outside and i was playing with the switch for the damper i did notice that upon closing the switch i didn't notice the damper close so i gave it a light tap and it finished closing on its own. So i tried it a few other times and had no more sticking issues. Any info that could be provided would be great.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Can someone fill me in on the "sticking issue" with the front damper? The reason i ask is when i did the initial fire outside and i was playing with the switch for the damper i did notice that upon closing the switch i didn't notice the damper close so i gave it a light tap and it finished closing on its own. So i tried it a few other times and had no more sticking issues. Any info that could be provided would be great.


Likely you will be fine now. Sometimes you have to get the rod that opens the damper, seated into place properly after moving the unit. A few people have had to tweak the rod a bit to get it to work smoothly, take the cover off the box on the back where the damper motor is to check if the rod is working smoothly back there too. Not binding at the pivot or rubbing on anything. I have heard of some people that lubed the pivot points with a dab of high temp grease too.
To answer your question, for some of the earlier units they would send you a new damper that was just a bit different design in the area where the rod attaches. I haven't heard of anybody having much trouble on any units made in the last year or two though...


----------



## 3fordasho

I applied some high temp anti-seize to the pivot points.  Also the V-bend end of the control rod where it meets the damper arm would occasionally bind holding the damper slightly open. Opening the V of the bend slightly took care of that. 






Builderml said:


> Can someone fill me in on the "sticking issue" with the front damper? The reason i ask is when i did the initial fire outside and i was playing with the switch for the damper i did notice that upon closing the switch i didn't notice the damper close so i gave it a light tap and it finished closing on its own. So i tried it a few other times and had no more sticking issues. Any info that could be provided would be great.


----------



## DoubleB

3fordasho said:


> Also the V-bend end of the control rod where it meets the damper arm would occasionally bind holding the damper slightly open. Opening the V of the bend slightly took care of that.



That happened to me too.  Had to take the small box off the front of the furnace.  I don't remember what I did to resolve it, but by turning the damper motor on/off I could see it was binding there, and did something to the hook at the end of the rod and not a problem since then.


----------



## bedrock1

hi guys what u find the drolet  tundra/ heatmax like for heating your homes, last year I could not get mine to heat a 1000 sq house. I found out they change the thermodisc from the rear of the furnace to the top, I was burning a lot of wood to get the blower to cut in , now I have the kit on top I find the blower is still in but just blowing cool air when it should be cut out.


----------



## DoubleB

Welcome back, @bedrock1 .  I hope you had a good summer.

Last spring you continually complained about your Tundra.  A lot of people spent a lot of time to help you, but you wouldn't try their suggestions or provide further information that was necessary to solve your problems.  I'm sure you remember the chaos, here are 10 pages of it:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/real-thinking-about-taking-out-my-drolet-heatmax.141335/page-3
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/help-with-a-new-drolet-heat-max.140628/

Speaking only for myself, please don't turn this "Everything Drolet Tundra Heatmax" thread into another headache.  Rather, please review the above links, try the suggestions, and report back detailed answers to our questions.  Also, I recommend you have this discussion on those threads in case the discussion continues to be futile.


----------



## Builderml

I hope i am keeping this thread on track if not just let me know and i'll stop. Just trying to document my install with photos. Here are a few more pictures of what has been done so far.Tundra set up 16" for easier loading and nice viewing height. Also single wall chimney pipe hooked up


.
I have been able to complete the 2 supply ducts, 1 duct branch has 3 outlets and the 2nd has 4 outlets. I am waiting on my return box with filter to be made so i can run my return and install should be complete as far as duct work goes.
I still need to finish wiring the outlet which i mounted to the side of the tundra (can be seen in last picture). Also need to wire in the thermostat. Just a word or caution if you plan on drilling like i did to mount the electrical box to the unit be careful on the lower portion of where i have the box mounted you only have about 3/4" before you hit (something) i'm guessing the firebox.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I hope i am keeping this thread on track


Bring it! 
Lookin good builder, you'll like having it up on blocks like that!


----------



## DoubleB

Yep, great post @Builderml .  Nice clean installs are always nice to look at.

I agree it would be nice to have it up that high--also an advantage when cleaning out the firebox and burn tubes in the spring, what a pain in my furnace lower to the ground.  One thought on the blocks--It looks like it might not take much push from the side to tip them over.  I know the furnace weighs a lot so it's probably unlikely but the width vs height of the blocks isn't in your favor.  I also have a tendancy of overthinking things...

Also, how long are those 8' runs?  I think you mentioned in a different thread but I have trouble keeping track.

Keep the updates coming, thanks for posting.


----------



## brenndatomu

bedrock1 said:


> hi guys what u find the drolet  tundra/ heatmax like for heating your homes, last year I could not get mine to heat a 1000 sq house. I found out they change the thermodisc from the rear of the furnace to the top, I was burning a lot of wood to get the blower to cut in , now I have the kit on top I find the blower is still in but just blowing cool air when it should be cut out.


Hey @bedrock1 , how's it goin? Still fightin this huh?
If you don't mind, could you ask this question in one of the threads that you created on this subject last winter? Reason being, there is alot of relevant information there and it would be much easier to bring any new diagnosticians up to speed. I would recommend posting a recap of where you started and all the things that have been checked, verified and tried, and then the results. It might be good for you to go back and re-read through the thread(s) to see if there may be suggestions that would be good to try or re-try with the new switch location.

One thing that crossed my mind was the temperature there right now, I don't recall your chimney specs but it may still be too warm outside to get a good draft...that would make for a weak fire and low heat output


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Yep, great post @Builderml .  Nice clean installs are always nice to look at.
> 
> I agree it would be nice to have it up that high--also an advantage when cleaning out the firebox and burn tubes in the spring, what a pain in my furnace lower to the ground.  One thought on the blocks--It looks like it might not take much push from the side to tip them over.  I know the furnace weighs a lot so it's probably unlikely but the width vs height of the blocks isn't in your favor.  I also have a tendancy of overthinking things...
> 
> Also, how long are those 8' runs?  I think you mentioned in a different thread but I have trouble keeping track.
> 
> Keep the updates coming, thanks for posting.


 I tried pushing the unit over once i had it on the blocks. Didn't want to move at all. I did thinset all the blocks together along with the first row of blocks to the slab.
1-8" run is about 20-25' plus the branches that come off of it. 3 branches
The 2nd 8" run is about 40' plus the smaller runs that come off of it. 4 branches
I did install all the take offs with dampers just in case I needed to make adjustments.


----------



## Highbeam

Builderml said:


> I tried pushing the unit over once i had it on the blocks. Didn't want to move at all. I did thinset all the blocks together along with the first row of blocks to the slab.
> 1-8" run is about 20-25' plus the branches that come off of it. 3 branches
> The 2nd 8" run is about 40' plus the smaller runs that come off of it. 4 branches
> I did install all the take offs with dampers just in case I needed to make adjustments.



I put my stove way up on blocks and found it was quite stable too. The impact required to knock the stove off the blocks would damage the stove/furnace even if it was right on the ground. A disconnected flu is just as bad either way.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> The impact required to knock the stove off the blocks would damage the stove/furnace even if it was right on the ground.


Good point. Steel can slide on a smooth concrete floor pretty easily really


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> I tried pushing the unit over once i had it on the blocks. Didn't want to move at all.



Ok, I'm a geek so I drew up a free body diagram** of the forces involved and calculated it would take around 125 to 275 pounds of entirely sideways force on the furnace to tip over the blocks, depending upon where on the furnace you push.  It would probably take even more than 125 lbs because you thinset the blocks together and because your ducts may help resist movement.  I estimate that I could probably impart 275 pounds of sideways force if I sprinted and crashed into a broken heap on the side of the furnace.  So you should either place hurdles around the sides of your furnace, or else just don't invite me over.  Beyond that, I reckon your chances of failure are quite low.

Or you could just listen to the other guys above and get much better advice much quicker, which I'm sure you have figured out by now.

**And, the "free" part of free body diagram refers to the manner of evaluating a body diagram, and does not refer to the cost of the body diagram.  But in this case, notice that I did not charge you anything for this advice, and we all know that advice is worth what you pay for it.

Ok, somebody post something useful to compensate for this derailment...


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Ok, I'm a geek so I drew up a free body diagram** of the forces involved and calculated it would take around 125 to 275 pounds of entirely sideways force on the furnace to tip over the blocks, depending upon where on the furnace you push.  It would probably take even more than 125 lbs because you thinset the blocks together and because your ducts may help resist movement.  I estimate that I could probably impart 275 pounds of sideways force if I sprinted and crashed into a broken heap on the side of the furnace.  So you should either place hurdles around the sides of your furnace, or else just don't invite me over.  Beyond that, I reckon your chances of failure are quite low.
> 
> Or you could just listen to the other guys above and get much better advice much quicker, which I'm sure you have figured out by now.
> 
> **And, the "free" part of free body diagram refers to the manner of evaluating a body diagram, and does not refer to the cost of the body diagram.  But in this case, notice that I did not charge you anything for this advice, and we all know that advice is worth what you pay for it.
> 
> Ok, somebody post something useful to compensate for this derailment...


I want to see this diagram.. Is she hot ?


----------



## maple1

DoubleB said:


> Ok, I'm a geek so I drew up a free body diagram** of the forces involved and calculated it would take around 125 to 275 pounds of entirely sideways force on the furnace to tip over the blocks, depending upon where on the furnace you push.  It would probably take even more than 125 lbs because you thinset the blocks together and because your ducts may help resist movement.  I estimate that I could probably impart 275 pounds of sideways force if I sprinted and crashed into a broken heap on the side of the furnace.  So you should either place hurdles around the sides of your furnace, or else just don't invite me over.  Beyond that, I reckon your chances of failure are quite low.
> 
> Or you could just listen to the other guys above and get much better advice much quicker, which I'm sure you have figured out by now.
> 
> **And, the "free" part of free body diagram refers to the manner of evaluating a body diagram, and does not refer to the cost of the body diagram.  But in this case, notice that I did not charge you anything for this advice, and we all know that advice is worth what you pay for it.
> 
> Ok, somebody post something useful to compensate for this derailment...


 
Surrounding it with those cushy shiny posts & velvet rope things like they used to have for lineups at the bank might work.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I want to see this diagram.. Is she hot ?





maple1 said:


> Surrounding it with those cushy shiny posts & velvet rope things like they used to have for lineups at the bank might work.


Are we still talkin about Tundras?


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> I want to see this diagram.. Is she hot ?



This is probably quite disappointing.  Overly simple analysis that doesn't account for many factors.  And it doesn't show much skin, either.

Wf is weight of the furnace at a given location on the blocks, which are 8" wide.


----------



## Matt78

Yep looks like your good! Good work double


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> This is probably quite disappointing.  Overly simple analysis that doesn't account for many factors.  And it doesn't show much skin, either.
> 
> Wf is weight of the furnace at a given location on the blocks, which are 8" wide.
> 
> View attachment 163254


Eww...algebra 
Hey, any of y'all had to replace your Tundra/Heatmax door gasket? I wondered what density of gasket it is? 
I see the parts list show it as a 3/4" x 7'...


----------



## Highbeam

DoubleB said:


> This is probably quite disappointing.  Overly simple analysis that doesn't account for many factors.  And it doesn't show much skin, either.
> 
> Wf is weight of the furnace at a given location on the blocks, which are 8" wide.
> 
> View attachment 163254



I wonder if you applied that same force to the top of the furnace, would it tip over as well?


----------



## DoubleB

Highbeam said:


> I wonder if you applied that same force to the top of the furnace, would it tip over as well?



Hmm, the plot thickens...  Good call, @Highbeam , I think that's a more accurate analysis, and unfortunately more dangerous.  This shows the realistic case where the far side block tips along with the furnace.  Moment arm of the applied force is 55 inches above ground (furnace plus block heights), and moment arm of the furnace weight is only 13 inches (half furnace width).




This suggests the furnace will tip at 130 lbs exerted sideways.  Push at an up angle and less force will tip it.  Also, push on the front corner and it might not take much to tip because now you're twisting the furnace about a vertical axis, which might help get things going.  The connected ductwork should help resist, but I don't know how much.

So, the bad news is that the furnace will tip with much less force than I previously thought.  Astute observers may note that the same analysis above suggests the rest of us with furnaces near the ground could tip them with only a little more at 183 lbs (39" high / 13" wide * 550 lbs).

This may be true, however furnaces on the ground are still harder to tip over because the center of mass raises higher (requires more energy/effort) in order to exceed the threshold that tips over vs. falls back home.  Also, if a furnace on the ground does tip, there is 16" less inches of potential energy to cause damage to anything that might have a chance at survival.

Point is, I'm a bit leery again, and I'd wager that I could tip it over on 16" blocks with a smart shove in the proper location/direction.


----------



## Wisneaky

I had mine up on blocks and I'm a big boy and took all I could do just to try and tip it on it's side so my wife could slide the block a little more under it. You'd have to hit it with some serious force to tip it over. Maybe if your drunk and stumbled from 5 feet back and plowed into it big time that maybe it would move a few inches. If that does happen I hope someone gets it on video.


----------



## Wisneaky

brenndatomu said:


> Eww...algebra
> Hey, any of y'all had to replace your Tundra/Heatmax door gasket? I wondered what density of gasket it is?
> I see the parts list show it as a 3/4" x 7'...


If you ask @DoubleB he can probably draw up an equation to figure it out. LOL


----------



## DoubleB

I like a good analysis on paper, but real-world results are more important, and your example seems pretty hard to argue with.



Wisneaky said:


> all I could do just to try and tip it on it's side



Sounds like a good job for a crowbar and a chunk of 2x4.  But we're glad you didn't otherwise you wouldn't have the above example!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Eww...algebra
> Hey, any of y'all had to replace your Tundra/Heatmax door gasket? I wondered what density of gasket it is?
> I see the parts list show it as a 3/4" x 7'...




that's more like physics/statics.......


----------



## Wisneaky

JRHAWK9 said:


> that's more like physics/statics.......


I don't know what it is. I just know I don't understand it. I'm jealous. I wish I did though.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> that's more like physics/statics.......


Still algebra, no?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Still algebra, no?



true, but it's also simple division as well then too


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Hmm, the plot thickens...  Good call, @Highbeam , I think that's a more accurate analysis, and unfortunately more dangerous.  This shows the realistic case where the far side block tips along with the furnace.  Moment arm of the applied force is 55 inches above ground (furnace plus block heights), and moment arm of the furnace weight is only 13 inches (half furnace width).
> 
> View attachment 163389
> 
> 
> This suggests the furnace will tip at 130 lbs exerted sideways.  Push at an up angle and less force will tip it.  Also, push on the front corner and it might not take much to tip because now you're twisting the furnace about a vertical axis, which might help get things going.  The connected ductwork should help resist, but I don't know how much.
> 
> So, the bad news is that the furnace will tip with much less force than I previously thought.  Astute observers may note that the same analysis above suggests the rest of us with furnaces near the ground could tip them with only a little more at 183 lbs (39" high / 13" wide * 550 lbs).
> 
> This may be true, however furnaces on the ground are still harder to tip over because the center of mass raises higher (requires more energy/effort) in order to exceed the threshold that tips over vs. falls back home.  Also, if a furnace on the ground does tip, there is 16" less inches of potential energy to cause damage to anything that might have a chance at survival.
> 
> Point is, I'm a bit leery again, and I'd wager that I could tip it over on 16" blocks with a smart shove in the proper location/direction.


 Using your formula i come up with 160 lbs i am using 16 not 13  so 16/55 X 550 = 160LBS ..I have no reason to question your formula, i'll be darn if i can remember how to come up with the formulas its been over 20 years since the last time i was sleeping in class. Looks like i need to install some 200mph duct tape. The reason i used 16 is because the center of the furnace leg is on the center of the block not the outside edge which widens my base.

 Well now onto an update my return plenum with filter has been made should hopefully have it installed this weekend. It cost me $100 to have the plenum with filter slot made sure beats what Drolet is asking for just the filter attachment


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> i come up with 160 lbs



Eh, probably don't worry too much about my geek stuff.  By now I'd use @Wisneaky 's formula in post #432: 

effort required to tip furnace      >     big boy   +   rescuing precious wife from certain death

If you want a little extra insurance, put up those fancy brass posts with red velvet rope that @maple1 is going to send to you after he requisitions them from his bank.

Now, let's see what trouble I can cause about gasket density...


----------



## Highbeam

DoubleB said:


> I like a good analysis on paper, but real-world results are more important, and your example seems pretty hard to argue with.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a good job for a crowbar and a chunk of 2x4.  But we're glad you didn't otherwise you wouldn't have the above example!



What I was getting at is that whether the furnace is up on blocks or setting right on the ground, a similar force is required to knock it over. Following that, the additional risk caused by putting your furnace up on blocks is negligible.


----------



## Wisneaky

I personally think it is better to have it up on blocks. Easier to load since you don't have to bend over as far. If you do get water in your basement or water heater leaks your less likely to have the blower damaged because it will be off the ground also. I wouldn't worry about it tipping over, just make sure it's stable. Give it a little bump test to make sure.


----------



## maple1

Highbeam said:


> What I was getting at is that whether the furnace is up on blocks or setting right on the ground, a similar force is required to knock it over. Following that, the additional risk caused by putting your furnace up on blocks is negligible.


 
I don't think so - the higher it is, less force that is required?

EDIT: But it also might depend on how or if your furnace is attached to the blocks.

EDIT EDIT: Yes, most definitely. I think.


----------



## Highbeam

maple1 said:


> I don't think so - the higher it is, less force that is required?
> 
> EDIT: But it also might depend on how or if your furnace is attached to the blocks.
> 
> EDIT EDIT: Yes, most definitely. I think.



Oh no, you need to assume the same height of impact above ground to more accurately simulate an impact from a ground mounted dude falling into it. I know it won't be the same but pretty close.


----------



## brenndatomu

Tundras new big brother...Heatpro http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/furnaces/extra-large


----------



## Wisneaky

brenndatomu said:


> Tundras new big brother...Heatpro http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/furnaces/extra-large


Someone should tell SBI right away that it is going to probably have the same cracking issues because they didn't put firebrick in the front again.


----------



## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> because they didn't put firebrick in the front again


It does appear that way. Surely they are not dumb enough to go down that road again. Of course the PSG Caddy line has no bricks there and they are fine. There are quite a few changes here from the Tundra so I'm sayin they are figuring it's handled. Pretty cool plenum...


----------



## Wisneaky

brenndatomu said:


> It does appear that way. Surely they are not dumb enough to go down that road again. Of course the PSG Caddy line has no bricks there and they are fine. There are quite a few changes here from the Tundra so I'm sayin they are figuring it's handled. Pretty cool plenum...


It does look like a nice furnace. Unfortunately I won't be one of the first hundred to own one this time. I'll wait until they sell a thousand before I decide so they get the bugs worked out if there is any.


----------



## brenndatomu

They show a sku # for Menards, but that # doesn't come up when searched on Menards site...as of yet. I wanted to see the price


----------



## Wisneaky

brenndatomu said:


> They show a sku # for Menards, but that # doesn't come up when searched on Menards site...as of yet. I wanted to see the price


I'll sell you a preorder for $10,000


----------



## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> I'll sell you a preorder for $10,000


I'll take two


----------



## Wisneaky

brenndatomu said:


> I'll take two


Great. Now if you could just send me a money gram I'll get that all taken care of for you.


----------



## Builderml

I have sent SBI an email about my Tundra. Due to me having learned about the cracking issue from Hearth.com and not SBI i feel it is only fair to keep you guys/gals informed about my current questions and answers with SBI.
Here is a copy of my email to SBI and i will also post the response once it is received.

I purchased a Tundra on August 24, 2015 roughly 2 months ago now. I was aware of the cracking issues prior to my purchase. So before my purchase i called you "SBI" to make sure everything had been corrected. I was told Yes it was. I also asked if the units that were currently available for purchase were good to go. Again the answer was "YES". Now after doing some more research online i find out that the new Tundra units have firebricks lining the front of the furnace. I can assure you that the unit i have Serial number ( 1993) does NOT have any firebricks lining the front of the unit. It is to my understanding  that now SBI has a kit that includes firebricks for the front of the furnace.
 My questions now are as follows. 
1)Is it OK for me to use my Tundra in its current state with out worrying about cracks?
2) Will SBI send me the "KIT" which contains firebricks for the front of the firebox?
3) Is the additional front firebricks how SBI corrected the cracking issue?
4) If SBI is going to send me a kit how would you have been in touch with me if i did not send you this email.
5) I did register my Tundra with SBI why was i not sent any information about this? 
The list of questions could go on. I do not regret my purchase of the Tundra i just wish SBI would have been honest with me when i made my first phone call to you asking if all issues had been resolved and if all available units currently being sold were corrected. Due to the lack of the firebricks in the front i take it that my unit has not had the repairs done to it to prevent cracking from happening.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> i will also post the response once it is received.



Nice email.  If I was a bettin' man, I bet they will limit their reply to all your questions to:
-your furnace is fine, we fixed the problems.
-the vast majority of people you read about with cracking abused their furnaces.
-your satisfaction is important and to ease your mind, we are sending you the firebrick kit.

Let us know what you hear.  (By the way, I think you will be fine once you install the firebrick).


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Tundras new big brother...Heatpro



Alright!  Some new fodder for discussion.

Are you going to start a separate Heatpro thread, or merge with Tundra/Heatmax for now?

Gotta say that plenum looks kind of funky to me.  I haven't read the whole manual, but it looks like they require a user to employ at least 6 of the 6" outlets.  I assume that is to ensure adequate airflow (good idea of them).  However, for all of us with existing plenums, that's crazy.  Either we run 6-10 6" connectors to our existing plenum (crazy octopus), or else we just rig up their plenum to our plenum.  And it looks like neither of those is an approved installation.  I'll have to read more details I guess.


----------



## brenndatomu

Wisneaky said:


> Great. Now if you could just send me a money gram I'll get that all taken care of for you.


OK, here's the deal. I am very busy preparing for my year long transfer to outer Zimbabastan for work. I generally use LNM freight and they happen have a location near you. I will send you a check for $25,000 to cover the furnaces, the shipping, and a lil sumpin sumpin for your time and trouble. Would you mind taking care of these details for me as I am very busy right now. Oh, and if you don't mind, could you ship the furnaces before cashing muh check...?


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Are you going to start a separate Heatpro thread, or merge with Tundra/Heatmax for now


Hmm, didn't really think about it much, I suppose we otter do a separate thread to keep this bad boy at least _a lil bit_ on topic. Actually, this is probably a good start right here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/drolet-heatpro.145332/


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> this is probably a good start right here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/drolet-heatpro.145332/



Sounds good.  Let's continue our conversation about the Heatpro over there.


----------



## Builderml

I had a few hours yesterday to mount the return plenum and install the duct for the return also. Now all i have to do is go pick up a circuit breaker, finish outlet and i'll be good to go. Sorry to say but it looks like this is pretty much the end on my installation. Next phase i am sure will involve many questions for "yall". Trying to get someone to come over so i can measure the static pressure in the supply ducts. By the way the return duct is a single 12" round. 12" should be about 200-250 more cfm coming in compared to the amount going out. If i am not happy with the way that works i'll add another return maybe an 8" to the other end of the house. I'll be sure to keep you posted on the results good or bad of my install. Here are the last few pictures i have.


----------



## Builderml

To give an idea of cost to anyone thinking of installing a Tundra furnace here is what i have roughly invested in my setup.
Tundra Furnace=  $1460
Chimney Insulated and black single wall = $1400
Controversial Cement Blocks = $20
Ductwork= $950
Electrical = $75
Material Grand Total = $3905  
Labor i would figure about 30 Hours for items listed above. Cost will vary some depending on location but i think its fair to say that a range of $1000-$2000 is not out of the question.
Labor and Material Grand total = $ 4900 - $5900
Hope this helps anyone thinking of putting in a Tundra trying to figure out the real world cost of it.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Trying to get someone to come over so i can measure the static pressure in the supply ducts


You can use an inexpensive manometer. Most wood burners like the Dwyer Mark II to measure the chimney draft, which you will want to do regularly if you have a barometric draft regulator (which I'm not seeing...how tall is your chimney again?) Anyways, you can use the manometer in reverse to check and set SP too. If you need to get one, check the "for sale" forum here...there is a good deal on 'em there 

Good lookin install there builder! You are probably chompin at the bit to make that thing blow smoke no?!


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Controversial Cement Blocks = $20


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> You can use an inexpensive manometer. Most wood burners like the Dwyer Mark II to measure the chimney draft, which you will want to do regularly if you have a barometric draft regulator (which I'm not seeing...how tall is your chimney again?) Anyways, you can use the manometer in reverse to check and set SP too. If you need to get one, check the "for sale" forum here...there is a good deal on 'em there
> 
> Good lookin install there builder! You are probably chompin at the bit to make that thing blow smoke no?!



Yes i would have really liked to fire it up this morning about 42 outside, still waiting to hear back from SBI about the firebricks. I did not install a barometric damper due to some reading i have done on it. Its to my understand that if a barometric damper is installed and you have a chimney fire that its like putting fuel on the fire. This set-up may change depending on results of some testing once i get this thing burning. The chimney from Tee to cap is about 24'. Thanks for the heads up on the manometer.


----------



## Builderml

Can you link me or provide a picture to the manometer you speek of i can't seem to find the forsale section on here.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Can you link me or provide a picture to the manometer you speek of i can't seem to find the forsale section on here.


https://www.hearth.com/talk/forums/articles-for-sale-wanted-etc.10/


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I did not install a barometric damper due to some reading i have done on it. Its to my understand that if a barometric damper is installed and you have a chimney fire that its like putting fuel on the fire


Yeah, that's true, but, if you are burning dry wood and are running the Tundra correctly, and maintaining your chimney, I'd say the chances of a chimney fire are pretty minimal. Most wood furnace manufacturers call for a baro, or at least they do if you have high draft. And I'm bettin your 24' internal chimney is gonna draft real well! (that's almost the ideal chimney BTW) 
SBI says not to put a manual damper in the pipe, I know why they say not to use them, if you set the key damper when the intake damper is closed and then the tstat calls for heat, opening the intake damper, the chimney draft may go too low to keep things going properly...or even smoke back into the house. I put one in anyways, just in case it is ever needed, I've seen too many times where the draft goes sky high in a winter storm...gotta control things somehow


----------



## maple1

I wouldn't run without a baro damper. Draft conditions can vary wildly without one.


----------



## lexybird

Builderml said:


> To give an idea of cost to anyone thinking of installing a Tundra furnace here is what i have roughly invested in my setup.
> Tundra Furnace=  $1460
> Chimney Insulated and black single wall = $1400
> Controversial Cement Blocks = $20
> Ductwork= $950
> Electrical = $75
> Material Grand Total = $3905
> Labor i would figure about 30 Hours for items listed above. Cost will vary some depending on location but i think its fair to say that a range of $1000-$2000 is not out of the question.
> Labor and Material Grand total = $ 4900 - $5900
> Hope this helps anyone thinking of putting in a Tundra trying to figure out the real world cost of it.




950 for ducting ?  Yikes


----------



## Matt78

Got my chimney wrapped up today! With where it had to go I'm pleased with it. Hopefully I can wrap up the install soon. With more pictures of course.

Edit: wife reminded me I forgot to mention that she put in the vinyl panels!


----------



## Builderml

lexybird said:


> 950 for ducting ?  Yikes


Yes sir, it adds up quick
i do have an extensive layout of duct work which is not always required. 
that also includes the grill covers, screws, tape,firecaulk , etc.


----------



## Matt78

Got the electric hooked up this afternoon. Big thanks to my dad. Now to get some ducts run!


----------



## Builderml

I am not trying to be picky just helping out. If you are getting an inspection done i don't believe the wiring will pass. The Romex should be shielded in conduit.
Have fun with the duct work i know i didn't. That is one thing i never liked doing. Did your unit come with firebricks in the front? What serial number do you have on your unit?


----------



## Builderml

Builderml said:


> I have sent SBI an email about my Tundra. Due to me having learned about the cracking issue from Hearth.com and not SBI i feel it is only fair to keep you guys/gals informed about my current questions and answers with SBI.
> Here is a copy of my email to SBI and i will also post the response once it is received.
> 
> I purchased a Tundra on August 24, 2015 roughly 2 months ago now. I was aware of the cracking issues prior to my purchase. So before my purchase i called you "SBI" to make sure everything had been corrected. I was told Yes it was. I also asked if the units that were currently available for purchase were good to go. Again the answer was "YES". Now after doing some more research online i find out that the new Tundra units have firebricks lining the front of the furnace. I can assure you that the unit i have Serial number ( 1993) does NOT have any firebricks lining the front of the unit. It is to my understanding  that now SBI has a kit that includes firebricks for the front of the furnace.
> My questions now are as follows.
> 1)Is it OK for me to use my Tundra in its current state with out worrying about cracks?
> 2) Will SBI send me the "KIT" which contains firebricks for the front of the firebox?
> 3) Is the additional front firebricks how SBI corrected the cracking issue?
> 4) If SBI is going to send me a kit how would you have been in touch with me if i did not send you this email.
> 5) I did register my Tundra with SBI why was i not sent any information about this?
> The list of questions could go on. I do not regret my purchase of the Tundra i just wish SBI would have been honest with me when i made my first phone call to you asking if all issues had been resolved and if all available units currently being sold were corrected. Due to the lack of the firebricks in the front i take it that my unit has not had the repairs done to it to prevent cracking from happening.



This is kinda funny replying to my own post but i figured i would keep the two tied together. I received my response from SBI. I told you i would keep you guys informed so here goes.Talk about keeping it short and sweet. Drum roll ---The response is.  " The firebrick kit will be shipped out October 26 ". None of my other questions were answered.


----------



## Matt78

Builderml said:


> I am not trying to be picky just helping out. If you are getting an inspection done i don't believe the wiring will pass. The Romex should be shielded in conduit.
> Have fun with the duct work i know i didn't. That is one thing i never liked doing. Did your unit come with firebricks in the front? What serial number do you have on your unit?



Not worried about an inspection. Insurance company said it was good to go. I personly feel they get crazy with all the codes. I mainly was concerned and followed the CTC.
Mine didn't come with brick upfront. Doubleb drawed out prints of cut brick earlier in this thread that I followed. My serial number is 1144


----------



## Matt78

OK I'm I missing something here. Manual says. First vertical start off pipe no less than 12". The start off adapter is 8". Don't tell me I need an adapter for my adapter!


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> OK I'm I missing something here. Manual says. First vertical start off pipe no less than 12". The start off adapter is 8". Don't tell me I need an adapter for my adapter!


12" long...


----------



## Builderml

Matt78 said:


> OK I'm I missing something here. Manual says. First vertical start off pipe no less than 12". The start off adapter is 8". Don't tell me I need an adapter for my adapter!


They just don't want you to install an elbow directly to the take off collar.


----------



## 3fordasho

I took that as they want a minimum of 12" vertical rise for the 8" take off ducts before you install an elbow or some other fitting.  Makes sense to allow gravity flow in a power out situation.




Matt78 said:


> OK I'm I missing something here. Manual says. First vertical start off pipe no less than 12". The start off adapter is 8". Don't tell me I need an adapter for my adapter!


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> Makes sense to allow gravity flow in a power out situation.


Exactly, hot air likes to go up, but not as much sideways, unless it has some "momentum" first
If you look at the manual on many wood stoves, often they call for 2' of vertical stovepipe before going horizontal to the chimney, same principle


----------



## Matt78

Duh.. I feel kinda dumb! Lol. Probably won't be the last time either. Well back to work. Thanks guys


----------



## Matt78

Can I run the 8" dia pipe up 24" then 90 it into 6"?


----------



## brenndatomu

You'd be better off going (2) 8" main runs and then branching off with (4) 6" branches...going 8" right into (1) 6" is about a 50% cut in airflow, way too much


----------



## DoubleB

Matt78 said:


> Duh.. I feel kinda dumb! Lol. Probably won't be the last time either.



Everyone here is a hearth member.  But only a select few have earned membership into the "bonehead post" club.  It's so super-secret that unsuspecting members don't even know it exists until they accidentally join.  And even then, some manage to fail to accidentally join because they never realize that they made a bonehead post.

So, congratulations, you have joined!    But you have a long way to catch up to me.  

Keep up the good work, by the way.  You're paying attention to the details that will make your experience very enjoyable.


----------



## Matt78

Builder your right.....ductwork = NO FUN!

Brenn...just trying to come up with the least expensive way to do the duckwork. Next year I plan on having all ductwork redone. So both gas and wood furnace are tied in together. Thought if I could utilize 6" I could then reuse.

Double...lol....had me laughing.... And thanks!


----------



## Matt78

Menards has a metal flexable duct with operating temp of 435 degrees. Is it possible to use this?


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Brenn...just trying to come up with the least expensive way to do the duckwork. Next year I plan on having all ductwork redone. So both gas and wood furnace are tied in together. Thought if I could utilize 6" I could then reuse.


Understood. How far do you have to go?


Matt78 said:


> Menards has a metal flexable duct with operating temp of 435 degrees. Is it possible to use this?


Well, I guess technically you could. It's 8"?
It's not gonna flow as well as regular steel duct but if you can keep it a fairly straight run and run 8" almost the whole way...not ideal, but it may work for temporary. Is it really that much cheaper?


----------



## Matt78

brenndatomu said:


> Understood. How far do you have to go?
> 
> About 2 19' 8" runs. Then on one side about 4' to register and the other about 25' to 30' for the other registers.
> 
> Well, I guess technically you could. It's 8"?
> It's not gonna flow as well as steel duct but if you can keep it a fairly straight run and run 8" almost the whole way...not ideal, but it may work for temporary. Is it really that much cheaper?



You can get 6" or 8". I think I'll use the metal flex 6" to the short runs to registers. Then use non flex 6" to long registers. It's a little cheaper. You get 36 more inches for about the same price on the 8" round.

Man I've change my mind everyday on the ductwork planning. I think the wifey is getting tired of me buying stuff at menards! Lol


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> You can get 6" or 8". I think I'll use the metal flex 6" to the short runs to registers. Then use non flex 6" to long registers. It's a little cheaper. You get 36 more inches for about the same price on the 8" round.
> 
> Man I've change my mind everyday on the ductwork planning. I think the wifey is getting tired of me buying stuff at menards! Lol


When you put pencil to paper, add up everything, elbows, pipe, adapters, connectors, hangers, screws, clamps, dampers, registers, etc, is it really that much cheaper than going with standard round duct? I would be worried that I'd spend that money (saving a couple bucks) only to find it really doesn't work right...I dunno, not saying it won't work, just a risk is all


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> If you look at the manual on many wood stoves, often they call for 2' of vertical stovepipe before going horizontal to the chimney, same principle



Except for rear exit stoves of course.


----------



## 3fordasho

Question for those who have contacted SBI and have been promised firebrick for the front- is there someone specific you've been in contact with?   I've emailed the tech@sbi-international.com address a couple days ago asking about the "kit" and have yet to hear anything back.  Would like to update both my Tundras and if factory parts are available....


----------



## Builderml

3fordasho said:


> Question for those who have contacted SBI and have been promised firebrick for the front- is there someone specific you've been in contact with?   I've emailed the tech@sbi-international.com address a couple days ago asking about the "kit" and have yet to hear anything back.  Would like to update both my Tundras and if factory parts are available....


 I just went to the "contact us" tab on the SBI website and stated my questions. I think it was last Friday or Saturday i sent the email to them and i had a reply Tuesday,. I was in contact with the customer service manager.  SBI did ask me to provide  proof of purchase to update my file so i sent them that also. I would expect you should hear from them soon. Mine are suppose to be shipped out Oct. 26. 

I wasn't going to wait until the 26th to fire the furnace after all this work getting it ready to go. So i stopped by the mason supply house tonight and picked up 3- 4x8 firebricks and cut them myself as a temp set up until i get the ones from SBI.


----------



## Builderml

Not sure if this is new info or not but i figured i would pay SBI website a visit and check out the Heatpro specs and while i was there i noticed a new to me Tundra II and Heatmax II. To me it looks like the same units with the same plenum they have on the Heatpro. Sorry folks but that plenum is going to be one heck of a cluster **** with all those outlets.


----------



## Builderml

Matt78 said:


> Builder your right.....ductwork = NO FUN!
> 
> Brenn...just trying to come up with the least expensive way to do the duckwork. Next year I plan on having all ductwork redone. So both gas and wood furnace are tied in together. Thought if I could utilize 6" I could then reuse.
> 
> Double...lol....had me laughing.... And thanks!



When you do end up hooking into your existing ductwork odds are you will be using 8" duct to do so and not 6". Sounds like money wasted if your going buy 6" for now. You can reuse the 8" you have. Keep in mind that SBI wants the systems static pressure at .2wc. Not sure how thats going to work out cutting down the airflow like you would be using 6". Have you received any quotes on tying into your existing ductwork now? If your current ductwork is not far away i don't think it would be that much to run a couple ducts to it  and have a  backflow preventor installed. Just an idea doesn't hurt to get some numbers. If you can try to deal with a sheetmetal worker directly not just your regular heating and cooling guy who would proubly sub out the ductwork portion anyways.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Not sure if this is new info or not but i figured i would pay SBI website a visit and check out the Heatpro specs and while i was there i noticed a new to me Tundra II and Heatmax II. To me it looks like the same units with the same plenum they have on the Heatpro. Sorry folks but that plenum is going to be one heck of a cluster **** with all those outlets.


Took me a bit to find this...it's Tundra II and Heatmax II, I only see one version of the Heatpro. (EDIT: Ooops, I see I misread the original post, I thought you said there was 2 versions of the Heatrpros too.) 
Yeah, notice the "recommended heating area" is 500 sq ft less on the "II"? Hmmm, scratching my head...


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> i noticed a new to me Tundra II and Heatmax II.



I might be dense but I can't find them.  Very curious.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> I received my response from SBI. I told you i would keep you guys informed so here goes.Talk about keeping it short and sweet. Drum roll ---The response is. " The firebrick kit will be shipped out October 26 ". None of my other questions were answered.



Hmmph.  Figures.  Too bad you didn't get answers to your legitimate questions, but I guess we are used to getting little detail back.  At least you'll get the firebrick, and that'll help a lot.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I might be dense but I can't find them.  Very curious.


Here's where I found it...
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE.../compare/RK=0/RS=ACUy6naiuzd9fzVIcNL0GUd38z4-


----------



## DoubleB

Thanks, I see it now, just as described above.  Clearly more than just some design tweaks, has its own model number DF02001 too.  Makes me think they will soon discontinue DF02000.  Kind of makes me sad.  Not to see DF020000 get replaced, but to get replaced by that nasty plenum.  

Can you imagine how silly that floor display will look at Menards?!?!  (But they probably won't put the plenum on the floor unit.)


----------



## laynes69

I think the 2 is better, it's nice to see a plenum instead of the 2 8" outlets. Of course, one doesn't have to use the octopus plenum.


----------



## Builderml

OK, I am doing the happy dance this morning seeing how I didn't burn a drop of oil last night. So the first fire has happened and I would just like to post my initial findings. 
So I get home from work and fire it up last night. Oh boy wasn't good at first, so I lay a few 2x4's on edge pack in the news paper and lay my kindling on top, pull the lighter out and bam we have fire. Oooooopppsss next thing you know I have smoke coming out the damper and even the ash tray door, wasn't good, smoke alarms going off, wife yelling down at me saying smoke is coming out the floor registers. For any newbie such as myself STOP and please read the following very carefully. I strongly advise anyone before putting a match to your newspaper under the kindling that you light some news paper and hold it up to the exit of the stove to get a draft going. Otherwise you risk having the wife give you " THE LOOK". Now with that aside do I enter the elite club of DUH?. 
Now a couple comments about the tundra. Has anyone else noticed that the 8" supply on the left looking at the front of the stove gets much warmer air compared to the supply on the right? I really like how this thing just goes into auto pilot once you set the thermostat. Had the house up to 73, also not wise when the wife has given you the "look" already.
Well that's it for now. Time to grab another coffee and just watch.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Now a couple comments about the tundra. Has anyone else noticed that the 8" supply on the left looking at the front of the stove gets much warmer air compared to the supply on the right? I really like how this thing just goes into auto pilot once you set the thermostat. Had the house up to 73, also not wise when the wife has given you the "look" already.


First fire...WOOT WOOT!  (oh, and that was post 500 of this thread BTW)
Yeah the left hand warmer duct thing was discussed a bit back on page 16 of this thread...
So having the house up to 73* was a good thing or a bad thing?


----------



## Matt78

Well I just got furnace fired up this afternoon. It really took right off. One thing I don't get. Is why the stack temp goes up and down so much. Is it from bad chimney draft. Draft is currently at around .05 WC. Which is just low right? If I added some length to chimney would this help? I have it hooked up to that omega temp control thing. When it gets to 355 deg the draft shuts off and I get good secondary burn. Then stack temp drops and draft door opens and the cycle repeats. The house is about 80 degrees! So its putting off good heat. Just curious on your thoughts


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Well I just got furnace fired up this afternoon. It really took right off. One thing I don't get. Is why the stack temp goes up and down so much. Is it from bad chimney draft. Draft is currently at around .05 WC. Which is just low right? If I added some length to chimney would this help? I have it hooked up to that omega temp control thing. When it gets to 355 deg the draft shuts off and I get good secondary burn. Then stack temp drops and draft door opens and the cycle repeats. The house is about 80 degrees! So its putting off good heat. Just curious on your thoughts


-0.05"WC is perfect. They call for -0.04" to -0.06"WC
The first few burns can be a lil squirrelly, especially with a brand new unit you have never run before so no worries, you'll get there. This is the season for many SOS calls here on hearth in the fall, happens every year. Hang out in the stove forum, it can be entertaining 
355* sounds a lil low, I'd bump that up 1-200*, see what happens. IIRC, @3fordasho had his at 625* high limit. (which still is not a very high internal pipe temp)
If you have truly dry wood, you should be able to get the firebox temp up to the point where it will maintain a fiery hot secondary burn for a couple hours (depending on your heat load) keeping the tstat satisfied and the damper door closed for quite some length of time. That should stabilize the pipe temps a lot


----------



## DoubleB

Matt78 said:


> why the stack temp goes up and down so much.



That sounds perfectly normal if your damper is cycling open and closed.  Were you intentionally leaving the damper switch energized?  (Were you having trouble keeping secondary burn with the damper closed)?  I remember my first few fires, I had no idea what I was supposed to be achieving.  @brenndatomu  is right, you'll get the hang of it.


----------



## Matt78

Secondary burn is great the whole time draft Draft door is closed. The tubes glow red and flames dance. It's kinda mesmerizing! The chimney draft dropped to -.04 from what I'm assuming is from the wind not blowing? May hover a touch under -.04 at times. It's 32 deg out also. There's not much or no smoke ever coming out of the chimney. I'm assuming that is the goal. I'll get the hang of it for sure.....with a lot of ???'s along the way


----------



## 3fordasho

Matt78 said:


> I have it hooked up to that omega temp control thing. When it gets to 355 deg the draft shuts off and I get good secondary burn. Then stack temp drops and draft door opens and the cycle repeats. The house is about 80 degrees! So its putting off good heat. Just curious on your thoughts




355 is pretty low to shut the air inlet, (assuming that's 355F)  Mines set at 625f and that's pretty safe.  Really everything sounds pretty normal and I wouldn't touch a thing untill you get a little more burn time and colder outside temps and then re-evaluate the draft situation.


----------



## Builderml

Time for an update, its been a couple days of running now. My stack temp really never goes over 350. I am not complaining, most of the time it's running at about 200-275. On the magnetic temp gauge I have it shows just short of the burn zone. I guess, correct me if I am wrong I am getting really nice heat transfer from the heat exchanger. I went outside to look at the chimney figuring I would see a lot of smoke since its a little low on stack temp. Heck I had a hard time seeing anything coming out the chimney. Figuring that's a good thing. The only time I see much smoke coming out of the chimney is when I put a fresh load of wood on. Last about 10-20 minutes depending how long I leave the flap open to get the wood nicely chared. Burning primarily pine/spruce right now, and getting about 3-5 hours before needing to reload onto a nice bed of coals. I am putting in 2-3 nicely sized pine splits. What say you guys???? I think this sounds ideal to me but then again what do I know I have 2 days experience with the tundra.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Time for an update, its been a couple days of running now. My stack temp really never goes over 350. I am not complaining, most of the time it's running at about 200-275. On the magnetic temp gauge I have it shows just short of the burn zone. I guess, correct me if I am wrong I am getting really nice heat transfer from the heat exchanger. I went outside to look at the chimney figuring I would see a lot of smoke since its a little low on stack temp. Heck I had a hard time seeing anything coming out the chimney. Figuring that's a good thing. The only time I see much smoke coming out of the chimney is when I put a fresh load of wood on. Last about 10-20 minutes depending how long I leave the flap open to get the wood nicely chared. Burning primarily pine/spruce right now, and getting about 3-5 hours before needing to reload onto a nice bed of coals. I am putting in 2-3 nicely sized pine splits. What say you guys???? I think this sounds ideal to me but then again what do I know I have 2 days experience with the tundra.


Sounds pretty normal to me! Amazing how well these things work when they are set up per the manual rather than cobjob it in and then come on hearth bellyachin about the "piece of @*&#" furnace that Drolet makes... (that's an attaboy for @Builderml  and @Matt78  and a dig on the people that don't follow directions and then wanna come here and beotch)

Oh, and just a FYI here, if you have a magnetic temp gauge, you are measuring the surface temp of the pipe, the internal temp will be _roughly_ double that number. When @Matt78  or @3fordasho mention temps, you have to keep in mind that they are taking an internal temp reading.


----------



## brenndatomu

I fired the Tundra for the first time this fall last night. I really hadn't got a chance to mess with things much last spring as I installed it right at the end of the heating season. Anyways, I noticed that I have the "left side supply duct much warmer than the right one" syndrome too. It was that way from cold start through full temp/cruise mode. I didn't have my thermometer handy to check actual temps, but there was 50-75* difference from side to side I'd guess, very puzzling...


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I have the "left side supply duct much warmer than the right one" syndrome too.



Agh!  Stay away, it's contagious!  

How long are your 8" outlets until (if?) they connect to a common plenum?  Are they fairly symmetrical looking or different from each other?  IIRC, they're both short until they get to the plenum.

I haven't done my first fire yet, but I'll try to pay attention and have my thermometer handy.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> How long are your 8" outlets until (if?) they connect to a common plenum? Are they fairly symmetrical looking or different from each other? IIRC, they're both short until they get to the plenum.


3 to 3.5' long...both identical


----------



## 3fordasho

I fired mine in the house for the first time (this season) a few nights ago and confirmed the difference again, left warmer than right.  I then pulled the filter out a ways and it seemed like the temps were starting to equalize but then the fan kicked on and that was the end of the test.




brenndatomu said:


> I fired the Tundra for the first time this fall last night. I really hadn't got a chance to mess with things much last spring as I installed it right at the end of the heating season. Anyways, I noticed that I have the "left side supply duct much warmer than the right one" syndrome too. It was that way from cold start through full temp/cruise mode. I didn't have my thermometer handy to check actual temps, but there was 50-75* difference from side to side I'd guess, very puzzling...


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> I then pulled the filter out a ways and it seemed like the temps were starting to equalize but then the fan kicked on and that was the end of the test.


For me, they were very much unequal even after the  fan kicked on...I thought maybe I could feel a difference in temp on the HE cleanout door from side to side, appeared pretty even though, like I said, wish I had my thermometer around at the time.


----------



## Matt78

I also noticed left side warmer than right. I wonder if it would be better to use the left side 8" duct with either front or back combo? I know SBI says no, but I wonder if they truly know what there talking about. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> For me, they were very much unequal even after the  fan kicked on...I thought maybe I could feel a difference in temp on the HE cleanout door from side to side, appeared pretty even though, like I said, wish I had my thermometer around at the time.



Well this morning I put my Raytek infered laser pointer temp sensor thingamajiger to work. Low and behold to touch the left side feels much warmer but according to my reading I am only getting about a 4 degree temperature difference warmer on left. This reading was taken about 12" up from the top of the furnace. Will be interesting to see what others come up for a temp difference


----------



## maple1

Did you measure those temps on a shiney surface? If so, they don't work very good on those. You might have to spray a spot of flat black paint where you want to measure, then try it again after it dries.


----------



## Builderml

maple1 said:


> Did you measure those temps on a shiney surface? If so, they don't work very good on those. You might have to spray a spot of flat black paint where you want to measure, then try it again after it dires.


Yes i did take the readings on the shiney ductwork. I do agree the the actual temp reading may be inaccurate due to the reflective pipe.  I held the "gun" at the same distance for both duct readings i took. I just wanted to get the difference and with both pipes being shiney i think the temp difference is correct. I did not take readings in different spots for the comparison i tried keeping the variables the same. Good idea on the flat black paint for actual readings.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> You might have to spray a spot of flat black paint where you want to measure, then try it again after it dries.


You can make a "target" out of black electrical tape too...


----------



## Buzz Saw

You could consider black duct tape, since it is duct work. [emoji14]


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## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> You could consider black duct tape, since it is duct work. [emoji14]


Ha!
Yeah, really any black tape will do as long as it is not gloss black. (when installed in this application any/all tape then becomes duct tape, no? )


----------



## brenndatomu

Been playing with my @3fordasho  inspired temp controller, now that I've got it working it's too much fun! (I know...I'm beyond help ) 
I'll try to post some pics of my setup tomorrow night. I used a Mypin brand controller mounted in a deep steel 4x4 electrical box, also had to add a relay because the controller had (2) NO contacts only (need 1 NO and 1 NC)
I had a real bear of a time programming the darn thing to work right (way too much time wrapped up into this!) Looking back on it I should have bought the Omega brand controller so that I could have just copied 3fords homework!   I guess I'm too cheap for my own good sometimes 

Now then, I wonder if I can automate my stove


----------



## trx250r87

Today I received the fire brick update as well as a long sheet metal looking flap piece. I have not had a chance to install the new parts yet.


----------



## brenndatomu

Parts pics please


----------



## trx250r87

Flap looks like stainless. Part number PL66099 "air restriction plate".

Bricks are part number SE56647.


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> Flap looks like stainless. Part number PL66099 "air restriction plate".
> 
> Bricks are part number SE56647.
> 
> View attachment 165293
> 
> 
> View attachment 165294
> 
> 
> View attachment 165295
> 
> 
> View attachment 165296
> 
> 
> View attachment 165297


I take it the air restriction plate goes under the intake damper?


----------



## trx250r87

brenndatomu said:


> I take it the air restriction plate goes under the intake damper?


I'm not sure. I didn't see any instructions for the restriction plate. I didn't spend much time with the parts or furnace yet. I'll install everything in a few days.


----------



## DoubleB

trx250r87 said:


> Flap looks like stainless. Part number PL66099 "air restriction plate".



@Wisneaky mentions this starting in post #31.  

But I don't know what it's really for.  Kind of another SBI quirk in my opinion--important enough to send to some people to retrofit without knowing how, why, or if it's needed, but not important enough to send to other people who may be prone to overtemps and cracking.


----------



## Wisneaky

DoubleB said:


> @Wisneaky mentions this starting in post #31.
> 
> But I don't know what it's really for.  Kind of another SBI quirk in my opinion--important enough to send to some people to retrofit without knowing how, why, or if it's needed, but not important enough to send to other people who may be prone to overtemps and cracking.


From what I could tell it seems to keep the front damper open just a crack to keep it from completely closing.


----------



## Builderml

Question about the secondary burn. The third tube from the front looks to me like the one that does all the work. That one looks like a gas grill while I do see some flames from the other tubes they are not nearly as visible as the third one. Just wondering if that's what others are experiencing? 
From what I can tell this stove likes a full firebox of wood, not just a couple pieces. For the first time last night I put in 7 pieces of wood I couldn't find any room for another piece after leaving the damper open for a good 10 minutes to really get it roaring and the wood chared. Went up stairs turn the tstat down so the damper would stay closed. Came down an hour later before bed and had really nice secondary burn happening, so i loaded at about 8pm and came down at 4am
To find some nice coals still left, put a few pieces of kindling ontop of the coals which caught very quickly and reloaded. Very impressed, keep in mind that is 8 hours with only spruce/pine being burned. As you can see I am still trying to figure "her" out so any other tricks you guys may have will be much appreciated.


----------



## Builderml

Maybe I shouldn't be posting the kind of wood I am burning. After all pine/ spruce is what everyone says not to burn. Prices for the softwood is really cheap for me it happens to be free. A tree guy keeps bringing me what he cuts so by the time I get the wood its in log lengths. So far it has cost me a bottle of wine for about 20 full cords worth. I don't want the price to start going up but I figured if it hasn't by now I should be safe in posting what I burn. I do have some hardwood about 2 cords worth and was keeping that for the really cold months but if I am getting almost 8 hours on softwood it will be interesting to see what the tundra does with hardwood.


----------



## brenndatomu

Pine is fine to burn but it has to be dry just like any other wood, maybe even more so. The thing with pine is it WILL burn wet, so people do. That makes tons of creosote, plugs up the chimney with sappy goop, then you decide to have a rippin fire or get some good dry wood that really takes off and WOOOF, chimney fire. People will tell you the pine did that...no, burning wet wood did that.
The pine I am burning right now has been cut/split/stacked over a year, yeah, it dry!


----------



## DoubleB

@Builderml , it sounds to me like you're off to a great start. 

-yep, a full firebox works best.

-It's normal for me, too, to have one secondary burn tube seem to do more work than the others.  I'm fine with that.  Sometimes if I'm concerned I'll actually stick my fingers in the baro damper for a moment and give them a smell to monitor how clean it's burning. (Sounds awful but it works, it's not as hot as I first suspected).  I can get clean burning as measured by my nostrils even with uneven secondaries.

-sometimes "topping off" the load doesn't work as well.  All things equal, I'd rather burn a really small fire at 6pm and a full load from 8pm to 4am, than start a large one at 6pm and top it off at 8pm.  Unfortunately, that takes a little practice and foresight to anticipate your heat load, but it will be pretty obvious after a few weeks.

-And as @brenndatomu says, pine and spruce are absolutely acceptable species, as long as they are dry just like anything else.  Your results (strong secondaries after 1 hr, 8 hr burn time) suggest to me you are doing just fine.  Heck if I had to cut down and haul home hardwood, or just split and stack pine, I'd probably go with the pine.  Sounds like you have a nice arrangement there.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Sometimes if I'm concerned I'll actually stick my fingers in the baro damper for a moment and give them a smell



For some reason I found that line very amusing... 
Got my morning chuckle in, thanks doubleb!


----------



## trx250r87

Well, here is the restrictor plate installed. The piece just goes under the damper door and the tabs are bent to hold it in place  It does not hold the front damper door open any more than without the restrictor plate. It does look like the purpose is to let less air into all 3 openings behind the flap.


----------



## trx250r87

trx250r87 said:


> Well, here is the restrictor plate installed. The piece just goes under the damper door and the tabs are bent to hold it in place  It does not hold the front damper door open any more than without the restrictor plate. It does look like the purpose is to let less air into all 3 openings behind the flap.
> 
> View attachment 165506


And here is the before photo.


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> Well, here is the restrictor plate installed. The piece just goes under the damper door and the tabs are bent to hold it in place  It does not hold the front damper door open any more than without the restrictor plate. It does look like the purpose is to let less air into all 3 openings behind the flap.
> 
> View attachment 165506


Hey would you mind measuring those holes for me? Looks like 6 of the smaller ones and one larger center hole. 
As I was playing with my Tundra over the weekend I had the thought that the intake damper seems a bit big, too "on/off". I was thinking that I'd move the damper control rod on the control motor so the door didn't open quite as wide, but this is a better solution to the "full throttle/turbo boost" of a wide open damper door. Easy to remove/modify too


----------



## trx250r87

Actually the center line of each hole is folded, tops folded up and bottoms folded down, to make a total of 3 holes. The left and right holes are 1.21875Wx1"H while the center is 2.5"W x 1"H. 

I used to experiment with magnets over the holes.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> For some reason I found that line very amusing...



Ha, yea I got no shame around here at my silliness.  

Some of my firewood last year was on the moist side so that's why I was so curious about smelling the exhaust to help see how well it was burning.  My fingers were about the quickest extensions I could find to stick in through the open baro to absorb a sample of combustion products for nasal analysis.  But when it wasn't burning as well I had a hard time washing the stink off my hands, and the better half had a strong opinion about that.  So this year I'll have to find some other sacrificial element to stick in there.  Actually, the firewood this year is in much better shape so I shouldn't have much stinky exhaust to deal with, or as much interest to go fishing in there.


----------



## Junebug90

About your secondary burn tubes: the front of the stove tends to have more air entering and more air leaving. This makes the front have more O2.  The secondary burn is burning the smoke due to spontaneous combustion.  So if the front area is getting more air it is burning the wood better while the back of the furnace isn't getting as much O2.  This is where the secondary in the back will burn "better" than the others.  It is because there is more fuel for it to burn and is hotter.


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> The left and right holes are 1.21875Wx1"H while the center is 2.5"W x 1"H.


OK, I'm confused. If we are referring to the holes in the position that the plate is mounted on the furnace, then to me they look taller (up and down) than they are wide (left and right)
You are saying the 6 side holes are 1.21875" wide and only 1" tall? By looking at the pic, I would have guessed the holes to be roughly twice as tall as they are wide. And then the center hole just a bit taller than it is wide...


----------



## Builderml

Well today I received my firebricks from SBI but no pretty stainless steel plate like TRX received, I guess I'm just not that special I did not install the new firebricks for the floor that SBI sent because they didn't fit anyways. So I reused the existing ones I had and cut a notch to fit.. Here is a picture of what they sent and under is what I ended up doing. Also a couple pictures of the bricks installed along with a picture with the additional brick pieces i ended up adding to the bottom edge of the door area.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> no pretty stainless steel plate like TRX received


I'm gonna try to make a "restrictor plate" to clip on the intake out of a piece of scrap ductwork metal


----------



## trx250r87

I'm sorry, I could have been more clear and put this all in 1 post. Here are 3 pictures showing the original area behind the damper door, the new plate set on but without tabs folded, then the last picture shows plate installed with tabs bent and folded to keep the plate held in place. 

There are 3 holes. The outer holes are just under 1.25" wide and the center hole is 2.5" wide. All 3 holes are 1" tall.


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> I'm sorry, I could have been more clear and put this all in 1 post. Here are 3 pictures showing the original area behind the damper door, the new plate set on but without tabs folded, then the last picture shows plate installed with tabs bent and folded to keep the plate held in place.
> 
> There are 3 holes. The outer holes are just under 1.25" wide and the center hole is 2.5" wide. All 3 holes are 1" tall.
> View attachment 165563
> 
> View attachment 165564
> 
> View attachment 165565


Ahhhh, now I see said the blind man! All makes sense now. Thanks trx!
Wonder why builder didn't get a plate, think the "newer" Tundras already have smaller intake holes?


----------



## brenndatomu

OK, I went downstairs to make my plate and after removing the damper door, I realized this is gonna be really simple. No sense in making this more difficult than it needs to be (like I did with my SS firebox shields a couple pages back )
The factory intake holes are already 1" tall and the center hole is already 2.5" x 1" so only hafta restrict the side holes. I used some high temp aluminum duct tape...


As promised, here is the pics of the temp controller that I put on last weekend. I used a extra deep steel 4x4 electrical box with a extra thick single wall outlet cover. There was just enough room for the controller and a mini relay in there too. The 4x4 box is just screwed down to the factory controls box on the back of the furnace.


Sorry about the blurriness of this one, camera refused to focus on this subject! Shot from above/behind


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> Ahhhh, now I see said the blind man! All makes sense now. Thanks trx!
> Wonder why builder didn't get a plate, think the "newer" Tundras already have smaller intake holes?




My 1342 and 1348 serial numbered Tundras have the smaller left and right intake openings.  Guess I won't be needing restrictor plates.  Still waiting for the updated bricks...


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> My 1342 and 1348 serial numbered Tundras have the smaller left and right intake openings.  Guess I won't be needing restrictor plates.  Still waiting for the updated bricks...


Ahh, maybe we have discovered a lil piece of the puzzle here, might be _part_ of the reason yours aren't "on crack" (well, at least the older one)


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> From what I can tell this stove likes a full firebox of wood, not just a couple pieces.





DoubleB said:


> yep, a full firebox works best.


I have found on any modern firebox that roughly 2/3 to 3/4 full of good dry wood will give you the best secondary action. Gotta give those wood gasses someplace to mix with the secondary oxygen and then expand...


----------



## Builderml

Figured out why i didn't receive the restrictor plate. As you can see from the picture the holes on the left and right have already been reduced in size.
No shiny new metal for me i guess.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Ahhhh, now I see said the blind man! All makes sense now. Thanks trx!
> Wonder why builder didn't get a plate, think the "newer" Tundras already have smaller intake holes?


Bingo


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> OK, I went downstairs to make my plate and after removing the damper door, I realized this is gonna be really simple. No sense in making this more difficult than it needs to be (like I did with my SS firebox shields a couple pages back )
> The factory intake holes are already 1" tall and the center hole is already 2.5" x 1" so only hafta restrict the side holes. I used some high temp aluminum duct tape...
> View attachment 165581


Mr. Brenn i would not be able to sleep at night knowing that the item that is saving my furnace from over firing is high temp duct tape. Unless it was rated for 200mph application of course. Besides the shiny duct tape really clashes with the black backround. I insist you make a pretty cover for your tundra after all your the one that sets the example around here. I use to get in trouble alot back in the school days for taking short cuts.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Mr. Brenn i would not be able to sleep at night knowing that the item that is saving my furnace from over firing is high temp duct tape. Unless it was rated for 200mph application of course. Besides the shiny duct tape really clashes with the black backround. I insist you make a pretty cover for your tundra after all your the one that sets the example around here. I use to get in trouble alot back in the school days for taking short cuts.


Once the damper door is back on you'll never see it, so no clash  If it was something that could be seen I'd hafta make a plate with some custom flames painted on it 
This is really for temporary testing purposes only at this point, I may or may not leave the holes restricted. It probably doesn't even matter that much since I have the temp controller in place now.
That aluminum "tape" is really good stuff, I have put it over test holes drilled into stove pipes, it takes the temps fine. A stove pipe will get way hotter than the intake of the Tundra will since it has cool(ish) air flowing past all the time
I hear ya on the shortcuts, I have learned over the years that there is _a place and a time_ for shortcuts. Not every place and not every time...this was more of a "calculated" shortcut...
Oh, and this wouldn't be the first time I was accused of being a bad example...I'm pretty good at it actually!


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Unless it was rated for 200mph application of course.


Just thinking about this...point of the tape was to keep the furnace from _going_ "200 MPH"...but _without_ the tape, you'd hafta have 200 mph rated tape...kind of an oxymoron, no?!  
Besides, (if you are into NASCAR) _you can't go_ 200 MPH with restrictor plates on!


----------



## laynes69

Don't feel bad.....I used high temp tape the entire season. If these furnaces had adjustable intakes on both the intake and secondary air, the use of a barometric damper can be eliminated. They can be controlled pretty easy.


----------



## Builderml

After the work off installing the front wannabe firebricks that SBI sent I must say I am not to pleased. I'll start by saying that the 2 long pieces of " wannabe insulation/firebrick" that SBI provides are soft so now after only 2days of running with them installed it looks like a mouse got in and is eating the material. What's really happening is when I am loading the wood I must be hitting the pieces and taking small chunks off. I can only imagine how these will look at the end of the season. So my advice is be very gentle when loading wood after you have them installed. If they get beat up I guess I'll just try to find some tall firebricks and make my own again for a second time.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> What's really happening is when I am loading the wood I must be hitting the pieces and taking small chunks off.



That's too bad, I haven't used my Tundra yet this fall, but I can imagine that happening.  Fortunately, I'm pretty sure the temps on the bottom are low and even if the firebrick at the bottom of the door gets busted out I don't think you're going to cause the stresses that cracked the Tundras.  Those cracks seemed to be more due to high temps along the sides and top of the door.


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> That's too bad, I haven't used my Tundra yet this fall, but I can imagine that happening.  Fortunately, I'm pretty sure the temps on the bottom are low and even if the firebrick at the bottom of the door gets busted out I don't think you're going to cause the stresses that cracked the Tundras.  Those cracks seemed to be more due to high temps along the sides and top of the door.


Thats the problem it's the new "bricks" they sent to cover the lenght of the sides that is chipping away and getting roughed up, probably happening when you take a piece of firewood and try to turn it to make it fit just right. The pieces I put in on the bottom SBI didn't send I just made them out of regular fire bricks for added protection.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> it's the new "bricks" they sent to cover the lenght of the sides that is chipping away



Gotcha, my bad.  That sounds worse.  Guess we'll have to be extra careful.

Maybe @brenndatomu 's stainless steel shields are going to be the winner by the end of the season, I guess we'll see.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Thats the problem it's the new "bricks" they sent to cover the lenght of the sides that is chipping away and getting roughed up, probably happening when you take a piece of firewood and try to turn it to make it fit just right. The pieces I put in on the bottom SBI didn't send I just made them out of regular fire bricks for added protection.





DoubleB said:


> Maybe @brenndatomu 's stainless steel shields are going to be the winner by the end of the season, I guess we'll see.


I wonder if you could cut a bit off the inside edge to make the harder to hit? If I was to do it over again I'd probably make mine out of regular bigbox/farm store firebrick like @DoubleB  (and/or others) and then cut the inside edge/corner on a 45* angle to make 'em harder to catch with wood
The SS will be durable, no doubt about that, probably the toughest part of the whole unit! Anybody that has ever worked with SS can appreciate how tough 1/4" 316 SS plate is...


----------



## Matt78

I had a large dead ash tree get away from me the other day! This is the result. Only a guide bar and could of been worse. Just putting this out there to remind everyone to be safety minded.


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> View attachment 166118
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had a large dead ash tree get away from me the other day! This is the result. Only a guide bar and could of been worse. Just putting this out there to remind everyone to be safety minded.


 Offset bar...Stihl is so innovative! 
Glad everybody is OK. Dropping trees is no joke...


----------



## Matt78

brenndatomu said:


> Offset bar...Stihl is so innovative!
> Glad everybody is OK. Dropping trees is no joke...



No joke! I can now cut way more efficient! When I realized things weren't going to plan. I gave the saw a tug. It was pinched. I was gone!


----------



## sloeffle

Emerald Ash Borer strikes again.


----------



## Smoke Signals

Jinkies Scoob! I don't think that bar is supposed to look like that.


----------



## Smoke Signals

Any one have a suggestion for a 4-20ma modulating damper motor to replace the stock motor on the tundra? Having trouble specking one that is spring return.


----------



## brenndatomu

Smoke Signals said:


> Any one have a suggestion for a 4-20ma modulating damper motor to replace the stock motor on the tundra? Having trouble specking one that is spring return.


Modulator huh? Someone is fixin to get tricky now! Cool! I thought about scrounging something from an old valve operator at work to automate my lil stove in the fireplace. Never followed through though. 
Could you spring load the damper door, use the motor to overcome the spring unless power fail, then the spring overcomes the motor, pulls 'er shut? Maybe its not that simple...


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu, that may be doable. I have access to some non-spring return damper motors, I will see if they are capable of this. thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## brenndatomu

Would a linear actuator or stepper motor work? I'm not up on what is or is not possible with this stuff but I know the local vocational school electronics class makes some pretty cool robots from a pile of "junk". Guess I need to hire a high school kid to automate my stove, eh?


----------



## brenndatomu

Or maybe a modulating duct damper motor? 
I think I know what you're up to, but would you mind elaborating for the others smoke?


----------



## Matt78

2nd fire of the year. I figured I get the stove pipe up to 625 f before shutting the damper. Problem is I could only get it up to around 500 f. It was a small load. Maybe this is why?I did get good ssecondary burn for about 10 min. tricky tricky


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> 2nd fire of the year. I figured I get the stove pipe up to 625 f before shutting the damper. Problem is I could only get it up to around 500 f. It was a small load. Maybe this is why?I did get good ssecondary burn for about 10 min. tricky tricky


What was your draft reading? A small load and warmish temps outside likely make for lower flue temps. Wet wood will do it too...


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu said:


> Or maybe a modulating duct damper motor?
> I think I know what you're up to, but would you mind elaborating for the others smoke?



Well in short I'm not happy with the full open or fully closed action of the damper and would like to have more automated control over it. I will use a 4-20ma controller to drive the damper to any point between full open and fully closed that is desired and hold it there until another adjustment is required to get the burn or heat output that I am looking for while keeping the fire box hot enough for proper combustion. Mostly I would like to be able to hold the damper open a little more that the fully closed position with out propping it open so that it can close fully in the event of a power failure or a over heat situation and the other thing is I'm the kind of guy that can't leave any thing alone.......haha. I think I may be onto the type of actuator that I need, they are used to operate the economizer dampers on HVAC equipment. I will post more details as they develop.


----------



## brenndatomu

Smoke Signals said:


> Well in short I'm not happy with the full open or fully closed action of the damper and would like to have more automated control over it. I will use a 4-20ma controller to drive the damper to any point between full open and fully closed that is desired and hold it there until another adjustment is required to get the burn or heat output that I am looking for while keeping the fire box hot enough for proper combustion. Mostly I would like to be able to hold the damper open a little more that the fully closed position with out propping it open so that it can close fully in the event of a power failure or a over heat situation and the other thing is I'm the kind of guy that can't leave any thing alone.......haha. I think I may be onto the type of actuator that I need, they are used to operate the economizer dampers on HVAC equipment. I will post more details as they develop.


Kinda what I thought you were up to. I think you may be on to something here, watching with much interest!


----------



## Matt78

brenndatomu said:


> What was your draft reading? A small load and warmish temps outside likely make for lower flue temps. Wet wood will do it too...



Draft reading was -.05 to -.06 wc. Wood is 3 year old maple. Didn't do a reading on it but I assume it's dry. I'll take a reading tomorrow. So are you saying when it gets cold outside furnace will run better.


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## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Draft reading was -.05 to -.06 wc. Wood is 3 year old maple. Didn't do a reading on it but I assume it's dry. I'll take a reading tomorrow. So are you saying when it gets cold outside furnace will run better.


Well, generally yes. Draft tends to be stronger anyways, but yours sounds pretty good now.
Since you only had secondarys for a few minutes after coming off high fire, that makes me think wet wood, _but_, that _was_ a small load, and it _does_ make a difference.
FWIW, I set my high temp limit down to 500 for now...seems to run good like that, at least 'til it gets colder
(Oh, and GO BUCKS!)


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> 2nd fire of the year. I figured I get the stove pipe up to 625 f before shutting the damper. Problem is I could only get it up to around 500 f. It was a small load. Maybe this is why?I did get good ssecondary burn for about 10 min. tricky tricky


Interesting findings here, I fired the Tundra tonight for the first time since putting my "restrictor plate" on the intake holes...wow, what a difference! It is in the mid 30s here right now, so this is probably the coldest temp I have fired up at since I have installed this thing.
Even with the cooler temps it seems to take a lil longer to get up to my programmed high limit temp (500* right now) and it seemed to be almost stalled out at 500, it would have ripped right past that temp to bounce off the 625* ceiling before. And the firebox is not nearly the turbulent, raging inferno that it was before when the damper was open, so I'd say mission accomplished for me since I was trying to soften the "drop the hammer" effect of the damper opening.
I also noticed that my draft reading stays higher when the damper is open now, which makes sense if you think bout it. The draft would go from -.06", down to -.04" with the damper open, (at first) now it only drops to -.05"

We'll see how this all pans out long term...so far I am liking the mods I have done. The "light it and walk away" capability that comes with the temp controller is pretty cool IMO ("two thumbs up" smiley inserted here)(if hearth had one)


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> Interesting findings here, I fired the Tundra tonight for the first time since putting my "restrictor plate" on the intake holes...wow, what a difference! It is in the mid 30s here right now, so this is probably the coldest temp I have fired up at since I have installed this thing.
> Even with the cooler temps it seems to take a lil longer to get up to my programmed high limit temp (500* right now) and it seemed to be almost stalled out at 500, it would have ripped right past that temp to bounce off the 625* ceiling before. And the firebox is not nearly the turbulent, raging inferno that it was before when the damper was open, so I'd say mission accomplished for me since I was trying to soften the "drop the hammer" effect of the damper opening.
> I also noticed that my draft reading stays higher when the damper is open now, which makes sense if you think bout it. The draft would go from -.06", down to -.04" with the damper open, now it only drops to -.05"
> 
> We'll see how this all pans out long term...so far I am liking the mods I have done. The "light it and walk away" capability that comes with the temp controller is pretty cool IMO ("two thumbs up" smiley inserted here)(if hearth had one)




The only times I've not hit the 625F limit is on smaller loads. I initially checked draft when I first installed the furnace  and recall the draft would go high when the damper was open and temps climbed but was with in spec with the damper closed and good secondary action.  Don't have a barometric damper and not sure I need one with the control and the fact that once the damper is closed and the furnace has good secondary action my flue temps are in the 290-350F range.  Pretty efficient compared to my 30NC which will have 550-650F flue temps during active secondary burn.

I'm loving the "light and walk away" feature as well ;-)


----------



## NateJD

FIred my Tundra up for the first time last night.  Is it sad I was as excited as a kid on Christmas?  Been saving and buying (furnace, liner, manometer, stove pipe, etc) as I can.  Right now I'm just letting the ducts dump into the basement.  I'm not tying into existing ductwork, as it is duct board and flex duct.  I'm going to keep Tundra and propane as two completely separate systems.  I was wondering for those of you that don't tie into existing ductwork, how many registers you have and what sizes.  Total feet of 8" duct and branches (6"?).


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## DoubleB

NateJD said:


> Is it sad I was as excited as a kid on Christmas?



Heck no!  That's how it should be.  



NateJD said:


> how many registers you have and what sizes.



I've actually had 2 ductwork configurations.  The simplest to describe was my two 8" outlets were each 2 ft long before dumping into a metal box so they could be at equal pressure.  From that box I had three 8" runs that each connected to a 6x12 floor register.  The runs were 6 ft, 6 ft, and 18 ft.  That worked just fine and delivered plenty of airflow and heat.  

My current configuration has the two 8" outlets each about 1 ft long until they dump into a plenum, then I have three 8" runs to the same floor registers, the runs are about 6 ft, 1 ft, and 9 ft.  I can't even get up to 0.20 static pressure on the fastest blower speed because there's such little resistance in the system.  And, I don't get much air flow out of the 9 ft run, and could just close it if I wanted to.

So, if you are going for simple and your house allows short runs with only 1 or two elbows, you could probably get by with just running each furnace outlet through 8" duct to its own floor register.  But you might have to be lucky for that to work, with a floorplan that evenly splits the heat load between the two registers, with short straight runs, and with ample return air.


----------



## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> I was wondering for those of you that don't tie into existing ductwork, how many registers you have and what sizes


When I installed my sisters Tundra I put a plenum over the two duct take offs. The plenum has (1) 7" 90* elbow that dumps right out to the basement. (1) 3-4' run of 7" pipe to the room next door, (2) 20' runs of 7" going to two 14" x 6" (or 8", can't remember) registers upstairs. Each one of the 4 runs has its own damper too.
Mine just connects directly to my main ductwork, which is conveniently right above it, via the two 8" pipes.


----------



## brenndatomu

For you guys that have had your Tundras for a while, how often do you have to clean your heat exchangers? Do you see any noticeable difference in heat output?


----------



## trx250r87

I check mine weekly and clean as needed. It does not take long with a shop vac.


----------



## DoubleB

Last year I cleaned mine every 3-4 weeks.  Although my firewood was on the damp side of good enough.  I thought it helped heat performance, but I don't know if that was perceived or real.


----------



## sloeffle

On my Caddy I generally clean my heat exchangers at the end of the heating season and a couple times during the heating season. Dry wood definitely helps with creosote build up in the heat exchanger.

The chimney gets cleaned at the end of the season and once during the heating season on a mild day in late January.


----------



## brenndatomu

I'm thinking about trying to work a small (4"?) chimney brush into the tubes to give them a thorough cleaning. The factory tool knocks the high spots off, but I'd like to see more bare metal. 
What got me started on this is the duct air temps off this thing, compared to my Yukon. The Yook blower shuts _off_ at 120*, the Tundra will only hold duct temps over 120* for 30 seconds once the blower kicks on. But I guess I'm comparing military grade weaponry to Playschool here...


----------



## KARB2014

I typically clean them once a month. I never really see any noticeable difference in temp, and I'm always measuring duct outlet. My unit is serial number 1406 so it is a newer one with the smaller damper inlets. This year I sealed up the baro and went with a cast iron damper. So far it really seems to have evened out my draft, under full burn it is will hover between -0.06 to -0.075(it's on the high end I know but it has never hit -0.08). With the thermostat calling for heat my ducts will hold 120 deg no problem (highest I have recorded was with sycamore and it was 132). My blower is set on number 3 and I have the adjustable snap disc set to 105 on. I do not have my cold air return connected yet, I ran all last winter with out it. I was wondering if I was the only one who thought the brick kit fit terrible, I can see I'm not the only one.


----------



## 3fordasho

KARB2014 said:


> I was wondering if I was the only one who thought the brick kit fit terrible, I can see I'm not the only one.



I installed two of the kits- both the bricks that lay flat on the bottom of the firebox at the front needed a slight notch in the angled cuts to fit-  not perfect fit but I'm happy to have them no charge from SBI.  I think 30 seconds each with the angled grinder took care of the issue.  I also fabricated some 12 gauge stainless angles to protect the soft vertical firebricks from damage when loading wood.  The soft bricks dent easily but they also are much better insulators than the hard bricks.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Does anyone know of a distributor of the drolet furnaces thats local to southern ontario?


----------



## maple1

Home Hardware sells the Tundra. Might have to order it, but any HH should be able to do that for you.

If that helps.


----------



## brenndatomu

Thanks for the mini review KARB! 


KARB2014 said:


> This year I sealed up the baro and went with a cast iron damper. So far it really seems to have evened out my draft, under full burn it is will hover between -0.06 to -0.075(it's on the high end I know but it has never hit -0.08)


Is that with the damper fully closed?


KARB2014 said:


> With the thermostat calling for heat my ducts will hold 120 deg no problem (highest I have recorded was with sycamore and it was 132). My blower is set on number 3 and I have the adjustable snap disc set to 105 on


No kiddin?! Man, Ima hafta do some more checking and tweaking. How long does it take for the duct temp to get to 120 after the tstat calls for heat? And how/where are you measuring that?
Blower on speed 3 huh? Have you ever checked your SP?


----------



## Builderml

NateJD said:


> FIred my Tundra up for the first time last night.  Is it sad I was as excited as a kid on Christmas?  Been saving and buying (furnace, liner, manometer, stove pipe, etc) as I can.  Right now I'm just letting the ducts dump into the basement.  I'm not tying into existing ductwork, as it is duct board and flex duct.  I'm going to keep Tundra and propane as two completely separate systems.  I was wondering for those of you that don't tie into existing ductwork, how many registers you have and what sizes.  Total feet of 8" duct and branches (6"?).


I have a total of 7 Registers,
1- 7" run into a 4x14 register  - large living rm
1- 6" run into a 4x12 register  - large dining/kitchen
5- 5" runs into 4x12 registers  - bedrooms/mudroom/another into kitchen/dining
1st 8" supply has about 20' of 8" pipe with  1- 7" and 2 - 5" branches coming off of it.
2nd 8" supply has about 40' of 8" pipe with 1- 6" branch and 3- 5" branches coming off of it.
I have a ranch so i needed a good amount of ductwork to get the heat to where i needed it.
If you look at my earlier post i believe i posted a picture of my ductwork layout.
When i figured my ductwork i did it using a static pressure of .2wc that SBI calls for.
I have a 12" return that is about 15' long.
When planning your runs here is the info for .2 WC static pressure
8" = 330 cfm
7" = 225 cfm
6" = 160 cfm
5" = 95 cfm
4" = 52 cfm
You have 2-8" supplies coming off your furnace each giving 330 cfm for a total of 660 cfm
Now you need to figure out your duct sizing so you can get rid of that 660 cfm.
What i did is take the total sq ft i was going to heat and divide it by the total cfm.
So 660cfm / 2000sq.ft = .33 cfm per sq.ft.
so a 12x12 room has 144 sq ft take  .33x144=47.52 cfm 
A 4" run would work for that room but i would not do any 4" runs make 5" your minimum you can always damper it down.
This is not a rocket science approach to figuring out your heat load just what i used and the house is nice and even with the heat distribution.
One word of advice with the left side duct seeming like the warmer of the two ducts  use that one for your longest run.
Again i did not do a real heat load calculation as one would with a heating system. I was keeping it simple and basic which has worked out really well. Sorry for the long winded post but just trying to explain it the best i can on how i did it.

By the way the house is 2800sqft total i am just supplying heat ducts to about 2000 sq ft of it and the other 800 sqft seem just fine, I did not do runs to bathrooms/walk in closet/pantry that kind of stuff.


----------



## DoubleB

KARB2014 said:


> I have the adjustable snap disc set to 105 on.



Welcome to the Forum, KARB2014!

Did your unit came with an adjustable snap disc?  Or did you add it?  I'm serial #8xx and mine is a fixed snapdisc.


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## NateJD

Thanks builder, sounds very similar to what I am working on. All I can say so far is I sure can get the basement a lot warmer than the upstairs. I appreciate your explanation.


----------



## jb6l6gc

maple1 said:


> Home Hardware sells the Tundra. Might have to order it, but any HH should be able to do that for you.
> 
> If that helps.


I saw that on the list on the drolet site.  Wasn't crazy about the canadian pice compared to American ... Go figure made here and cheaper there. Was thinking to wait for our dollar to bounce back again and trip down to Pick one up.  I'll inquire next time I'm in town if they can order and how much.  Definitely looking to replace the old hotblast


----------



## Buzz Saw

Any Menards in Canada? Or order on Menards website and ship to your house?


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> Any Menards in Canada? Or order on Menards website and ship to your house?


Or maybe order from Northern Tools?


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## maple1

Buying anything south of the border, from north of the border, just all around stinks.

By the time you get it here & fully in your possession, you can likely budget 2x the original product price - exchange, customs/duty, and shipping.


----------



## jb6l6gc

maple1 said:


> Buying anything south of the border, from north of the border, just all around stinks.
> 
> By the time you get it here & fully in your possession, you can likely budget 2x the original product price - exchange, customs/duty, and shipping.


Ya and like I said it's made in Canada but sold for cheaper in the USA. Oh well I guess


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> Or maybe order from Northern Tools?



No menards or northern tool here. They won't ship here I believe.  Maybe I'll just call sbi directly.


----------



## Highbeam

jb6l6gc said:


> Ya and like I said it's made in Canada but sold for cheaper in the USA. Oh well I guess



Isn't that just the exchange rate working against you. As in, your Canadian dollars are worth less than our American dollars? If so, you should be more easily able to scrape up more of them.


----------



## DoubleB

On page 21 a bunch of people were reporting the left outlet was much warmer than the right when starting a fire.  Tonight is my first fire, and I noticed that my right outlet was warmer than my left.  (Right side is the side with the door handle, electrical cord, damper motor, etc.)  

So, sure enough I'm another datapoint for the phenomenon, although mine was backwards.  Recall that my outlets are 12 inches long before dumping into a common plenum.  So it looks like a circulation loop in the air jacket/outlet/plenum instead of through the filter, until the blower kicks on.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah, I checked it again once I got my infrared thermometer rounded up, there was ~20* difference from left to right, until the blower kicked on, then they were roughly even


----------



## KARB2014

brenndatomu said:


> Thanks for the mini review KARB!
> 
> Is that with the damper fully closed?
> 
> No kiddin?! Man, Ima hafta do some more checking and tweaking. How long does it take for the duct temp to get to 120 after the tstat calls for heat? And how/where are you measuring that?
> Blower on speed 3 huh? Have you ever checked your SP?


Sorry everybody I don't check in here that often. Those measurements are with the damper wide open. Once it closes it will slowly work it's way down to -0.05. The lowest I have seen it drop to is -0.04 but that was on a 59 deg day with just coals in the box. As far as how long it takes to get to 120, it all depends how far I'm into the load. On a rather fresh load I would say about 5mins. On an older load 10mins. I haven't measured the SP but my duct work is so poorly design I need to have more air moving through the house. If not the thermostat seems to call for heat more often. My house was built in 1905, and is a Brick on terracotta build so only the attic is insulated. My windows are old so I plastic them in the winter but even at that it only goes so far. So when it get really cold out the thermostat calls for heat about every 90 mins and will call for about 20mins before it's satisfied.


----------



## KARB2014

brenndatomu said:


> Thanks for the mini review KARB!
> 
> Is that with the damper fully closed?
> 
> No kiddin?! Man, Ima hafta do some more checking and tweaking. How long does it take for the duct temp to get to 120 after the tstat calls for heat? And how/where are you measuring that?
> Blower on speed 3 huh? Have you ever checked your SP?


Sorry everybody I don't check in here that often. Those measurements are with the damper wide open. Once it closes it will slowly work it's way down to -0.05. The lowest I have seen it drop to is -0.04 but that was on a 59 deg day with just coals in the box. As far as how long it takes to get to 120, it all depends how far I'm into the load. On a rather fresh load I would say about 5mins. On an older load 10mins. I haven't measured the SP but my duct work is so poorly design I need to have more air moving through the house. If not the thermostat seems to call for heat more often. My house was built in 1905, and is a Brick on terracotta build so only the attic is insulated. My windows are old so I plastic them in the winter but even at that it only goes so far. So when it get really cold out the thermostat calls for heat about every 90 mins and will call for about 20mins before it's satisfied. 


DoubleB said:


> Welcome to the Forum, KARB2014!
> 
> Did your unit came with an adjustable snap disc?  Or did you add it?  I'm serial #8xx and mine is a fixed snapdisc.


I added the snap adjustable snap disc. It doesn't fit under the cover so you have to modify it or just leave it off.


----------



## KARB2014

I really want to make the controller. I do believe it will cut down the amount of wood I use. I reason this because on the really cold nights It will call for heat for 20-30 mins(my house is an energy hog). In that time the top of the furnace gets to 185-190 never hot enough to cut out the damper(200deg snap disc). If I could get it to shut down before the thermostat is satisfied there is more than enough heat to get to the set point with out having to have the damper open that long. I can really see now why Kuuma doesn't use a thermostat Just the Hi, med, low on the furnace itself. But still 6 cords I used last year I don't think is too bad.


----------



## Matt78

I finally believe I'm getting this thing figured out. I'm getting loads to last a good 8 to 9 hours. That is on a large load. Which I think it works best with. Seems like small loads don't last very long. I'm amazed how long this things holds coals.

After about 2 1/2 weeks burning I decided to tear stove pipe apart and see what it looked like. I was happy to find it was pretty clean. So far I'm very Happy. We'll see if that remains when it gets really cold out. I did get three cords of wood in basement this past week.


----------



## DoubleB

Matt78 said:


> So far I'm very Happy.


Great to hear, I think you'll be happy when it's really cold, too, even though you might need to change your burning a bit to prevent coals from building up.  Not too hard.


----------



## DoubleB

KARB2014 said:


> It will call for heat for 20-30 mins(my house is an energy hog). In that time the top of the furnace gets to 185-190 never hot enough to cut out the damper(200deg snap disc). If I could get it to shut down before the thermostat is satisfied there is more than enough heat to get to the set point with out having to have the damper open that long.



Hate to say it but 185F air jacket temp with blower speed 3 might cause you trouble.  The hottest air temp I ever measured was 140F and that was with a full load of small and dry wood with the damper open quite a while and the slowest blower speed 1.  That was a test and not normal operation.  And I still eventually got cracking on my furnace.  You're probably right that your ductwork is too slim, and it sounds from your numbers like your blower isn't carrying the heat out of your furnace very well and could cause overheating and excessive temperatures.  Especially since your tstat is wide open for 20+ minutes at a time. 

What I did to try to mitigate the same problem is I replaced my 160F damper cutout snap disc with a 130F snap disc.  I normally cruise around 115F with the damper closed and the slowest blower speed.  If the damper opens it only takes 3-5 minutes for the air jacket to reach 130F and the damper closes again even if the tstat is calling for heat.  It'll take about 15 minutes with the secondaries cruising until temp settles back down below about 122F when the damper snap disc closes and allows the damper to open again for 3-5 minutes.  Although it doesn't allow me to overfire the furnace on extremely cold days, I'd rather assist with the LP furnace.

In other words, I learned that connecting and using a thermostat as SBI instructs is risky without adding more protection yourself.


----------



## KARB2014

DoubleB said:


> Hate to say it but 185F air jacket temp with blower speed 3 might cause you trouble.  The hottest air temp I ever measured was 140F and that was with a full load of small and dry wood with the damper open quite a while and the slowest blower speed 1.  That was a test and not normal operation.  And I still eventually got cracking on my furnace.  You're probably right that your ductwork is too slim, and it sounds from your numbers like your blower isn't carrying the heat out of your furnace very well and could cause overheating and excessive temperatures.  Especially since your tstat is wide open for 20+ minutes at a time.
> 
> What I did to try to mitigate the same problem is I replaced my 160F damper cutout snap disc with a 130F snap disc.  I normally cruise around 115F with the damper closed and the slowest blower speed.  If the damper opens it only takes 3-5 minutes for the air jacket to reach 130F and the damper closes again even if the tstat is calling for heat.  It'll take about 15 minutes with the secondaries cruising until temp settles back down below about 122F when the damper snap disc closes and allows the damper to open again for 3-5 minutes.  Although it doesn't allow me to overfire the furnace on extremely cold days, I'd rather assist with the LP furnace.
> 
> In other words, I learned that connecting and using a thermostat as SBI instructs is risky without adding more protection yourself.


Where are you measuring? Because the newer furnaces come with the shut off at 200 on top of the furnace in between the two 8"outlets. I have talked to SBI about my temps and they said if your draft is under control you should never hit the high limit. Like I said I have yet to hit it, I just think lowering it would help with wood usage. I really can't complain on wood usage 6 cords for last winter, I like to tinker with it. I take my reading on top of the front outlets block off plate. That is also where I moved the snap disc. I have recorded that the highest I have seen on the stock location in between the two outlets is 172. That was with a full box of smaller split locust. No signs of over fire or damage. My secondary tubes are still straight and come right out by hand.


----------



## Builderml

I wonder why you would be worried about hitting the high limit of 200°? Isn't that why SBI has that high limit set at 200° to keep it from being an issue. I understand you are concerned about cracking as am I but if 200° was to high wouldn't they have put in one at lets say 180°? I have left the damper open after starting a fire to see how long it takes and to see what my stack temps are before I hit the 200° and the damper closes. I would say with a full load of softwood I can hit that 200° mark in about 20 mins roughly. My stack temps are consistent at about 400-430° on the surface temperature gauge when I let it hit the high limit. The next time I let it cycle the high limit will cut in and my stack temp went down to about 350 on that same load.I can tell you nice hot air comes out the registers. I did this for two reasons as a test to see how it would perform on a really cold day and I needed to get the temp up some in the house and to see if I would hit the over fire range on my stack temp if it did stay open for some reason. No it does not hit the overfire range it stops just short and the next cycle after that the stack temp is even lower. I guess If it cracks that's an issue I will address at that time. But and a big but at that I think that with the softwood I am getting a lot of flames in the heat exchangers without having the firebox overfiring. I could be wrong but I sleep better thinking that way


----------



## brenndatomu

Well guys...I'm not impressed. Something has to change or I'm going back to using the Yook.
I'm sitting here under a blanket because the Tundra refuses to blow hot air! My daggum chinese made 1.2 CF stove in the fireplace does a better job of heating the house, using a 1/3 the wood! It will at least make it 75* in here for 3 or 4 hours! I'd hafta shovel wood into this thing like a fireman tending the firebox on a loaded steam engine headed up the mountain side to get 75* outta the Tundra!
I can get the duct air temps up to 120 after the damper is open for a while...10 to 20 minutes depending on what part of the burn cycle it is, but the temp dies off pretty quick when the damper closes and is usually in the low 90s 4 hours into a burn. By the time the air makes it to the register, and across the room to my feet, it feels like cold air. 
I have had this thing running nonstop since last night and it is 70* in the house, my Yukon would have used less wood and  made it 75* in the house, at the least. I mean heck, its not really that cold out (28) and our house doesn't take _that much _to heat, we are only "actively" heating 1200 sq ft.

I have cleaned the HEs several times without much, if any difference. I tried different fan speeds and static pressures, not much difference. My draft is running right in the required range per a calibrated Dwyer. My wood is popcorn fart dry (BIG-time secondary action) The heat is just _not_ being "exchanged". 
It is supposed to be a little warmer this week to where I can go back to using the fireplace stove to heat with, I'm gonna tear into the Tundra. I had an idea this afternoon that may pay off. I have never had the baffle out and it _appears_ that there may be an "insulating" layer of soot all over the top of the firebox, above the baffle. I couldn't get a great look because of the hot coals in the back were threatening to melt my plastic mirror, but I looks like a good cleaning is warranted. Keep in mind this is my first season with it, but I am the second owner of this unit and it is 3 (ish) years old.
If cleaning the "primary" HE doesn't help I am gonna pull the insulation blanket out from behind the firebricks on the sides of the firebox, try to get more heat from the actual fire/coals. I think the blanket is more for reducing CTC than it is for protecting the steel of the firebox, and I have plenty of clearance so...
I'll keep y'all updated


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Well guys...I'm not impressed. Something has to change or I'm going back to using the Yook.
> I'm sitting here under a blanket because the Tundra refuses to blow hot air! My daggum chinese made 1.2 CF stove in the fireplace does a better job of heating the house, using a 1/3 the wood! It will at least make it 75* in here for 3 or 4 hours! I'd hafta shovel wood into this thing like a fireman tending the firebox on a loaded steam engine headed up the mountain side to get 75* outta the Tundra!
> I can get the duct air temps up to 120 after the damper is open for a while...10 to 20 minutes depending on what part of the burn cycle it is, but the temp dies off pretty quick when the damper closes and is usually in the low 90s 4 hours into a burn. By the time the air makes it to the register, and across the room to my feet, it feels like cold air.
> I have had this thing running nonstop since last night and it is 70* in the house, my Yukon would have used less wood and  made it 75* in the house, at the least. I mean heck, its not really that cold out (28) and our house doesn't take _that much _to heat, we are only "actively" heating 1200 sq ft.
> 
> I have cleaned the HEs several times without much, if any difference. I tried different fan speeds and static pressures, not much difference. My draft is running right in the required range per a calibrated Dwyer. My wood is popcorn fart dry (BIG-time secondary action) The heat is just _not_ being "exchanged".
> It is supposed to be a little warmer this week to where I can go back to using the fireplace stove to heat with, I'm gonna tear into the Tundra. I had an idea this afternoon that may pay off. I have never had the baffle out and it _appears_ that there may be an "insulating" layer of soot all over the top of the firebox, above the baffle. I couldn't get a great look because of the hot coals in the back were threatening to melt my plastic mirror, but I looks like a good cleaning is warranted. Keep in mind this is my first season with it, but I am the second owner of this unit and it is 3 (ish) years old.
> If cleaning the "primary" HE doesn't help I am gonna pull the insulation blanket out from behind the firebricks on the sides of the firebox, try to get more heat from the actual fire/coals. I think the blanket is more for reducing CTC than it is for protecting the steel of the firebox, and I have plenty of clearance so...
> I'll keep y'all updated


Brenn, All i can say is wow. At 1200 sq ft you should be getting cooked out of the house. I don't have that much experience with the Tundra as i am sure you know but i can only tell you what i am able to get out of it. Like i have said in other post i have the tundra ducted into rooms that total about 2000sq.ft. but all the doors are open to those rooms so in reality i am trying to heat 2800 sqft. We did have a couple days in the 20's here already and i was able to keep the house at about 70* with just the secondary burn. I think as you look further into it you'll find something isn't right. Now at 2800 sq ft my house has 10' ceilings as the lowest and others at 12' and 14' thats alot of cubic footage i am trying to do with the Tundra. I wasn't expecting the Tundra to do as well as it has with being  over its stated capacity. Also i haven't even burnt hardwood yet this is all on softwood.
I hope you get this figured out as i am sure you will.


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## laynes69

I don't understand if the Tundra shares the same firebox as the Caddy, why all 4 outlet's can't be utilized. If the ceiling of the firebox is built up with soot, it could affect heat output. Do you think the temp controller has anything to do with it? We have the same firebox but an open plenum and I loaded 4 or 5 splits at 7:30am and reloaded almost 10 hours later. We did have the oven going at the end, but the house was at 75 all day and increased to 76 when the oven was on. You very well could be doing the best, and if it's not keeping the heating demand then it's just not big enough. Of course every home is different. Since the cold weather hit, I broke out the thermal cam and found some bad air leaks in the basement. A can of foam later, they're fixed.  I'll be watching for updates, and hoping you figure things out. I went thru the same thing and it's very frustrating. In the end I found the issue and have been happy since.


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## brenndatomu

Wow, sounds like your Tundra is walkin n talkin like a big dog!


Builderml said:


> I hope you get this figured out as i am sure you will.


Thanks, Ima give 'er heck trying! I like a good mechanical/electrical mystery, and I don't give up easily. I guess I am blowing off some steam because of getting meager results from what I thought was a "dialed in" installation.


laynes69 said:


> I don't understand if the Tundra shares the same firebox as the Caddy, why all 4 outlet's can't be utilized.


I'm with ya, seems like the HEs are more or less the same too. I guess I can experiment with my sisters Tundra, I mounted a plenum right to the top of the furnace, only have 2 outlet holes open right now, could open all four later once a "baseline" is established.


laynes69 said:


> If the ceiling of the firebox is built up with soot, it could affect heat output.





laynes69 said:


> Do you think the temp controller has anything to do with it


I don't think the controller has anything to do with it, it has only been used for a few burns now, and the quick look that I got at the soot looked like it has been building for a while. It looks like a really dry fluffy type of soot from what I could see. Looks like pretty good insulation to me.


laynes69 said:


> You very well could be doing the best, and if it's not keeping the heating demand then it's just not big enough.


I really feel something is not right because the same amount of wood in the Yukon would have completely different results. As I said before, this house is not that hard to heat. Back when I heated with fuel oil it only took 600-700 gallons per year depending on how cold it was, and I have added a lot of insulation and new windows since then so...


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## Matt78

Something must not be right. I think your on the right track. Our home is 1850 square feet.I do not have a thermostat hooked up to it. So the blower is on low most of the time. I have a run going to both ends of the house. Its been about 86 at those ends and 76 toward the middle. I have opened windows already! My duct temps have been around 98. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## DoubleB

I can believe it could be good insulation, and fortunately it's just a flat surface that's easily accessible to clean.

The other thing is have you made sure that your baffle is moved to the rear to make sure the hot gases exhaust at the top front and travel under that HX surface?


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## DoubleB

Regarding the high temp cutout; my manual and the current online manual both describe the snap disc (item 44060) as an L200 snap disc, which might seem like 200F.  However, paragraph 9.3 indicates that the snap disc opens at 160F to shut the damper.  I honestly do not know if it actually opens at 160F or 200F, but the text alone is more conclusive for 160F so that's what I'm going with.  Since I've never hit 160F anyways it doesn't matter for my situation.



Builderml said:


> I wonder why you would be worried about hitting the high limit of 200°? Isn't that why SBI has that high limit set at 200° to keep it from being an issue. I understand you are concerned about cracking as am I but if 200° was to high wouldn't they have put in one at lets say 180°?



Well that's a very good point.  I'm just going on the fact that I've never hit my overtemp cutout (that I know of) and I didn't keep the damper open too much and I still got cracking, so my point is mainly just that I'm cautious not to rely upon the stock overtemp protection.


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## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> The other thing is have you made sure that your baffle is moved to the rear to make sure the hot gases exhaust at the top front and travel under that HX surface?


Yep.
I had 'er rocking and rollin this morning before we left for church and then came home to 70*...
And when I say rockin and rollin, I mean over 500* internal flue temp (per the display on the controller) and a firebox FULL of flames. It was hard to stand 2.5' away from the door with shorts on...HOT! And my duct temps just barely got to 120* (measured ~2' above the furnace via digital internal temp probe)(oh, and the fan was running the whole time) Now 120* duct temp will raise the temp of the house, slowly, but as soon as the damper door closes, then that temp drops to below 110*...and slowly drops from there. If I use the Tstat, it is just not satisfied soon enough, and I just blast a bunch of heat (and wood) up the stack, even using the temp controller. Seems the way @3fordasho is using his is working the best for me too, no tstat.
If I had a fire like that going in my Yukon it would result in 150* duct temps (and open windows on a day like today in the 30s-40s) But it is a much larger unit at 140k BTU (gross) with a very large HE.

Anyways, these two machines are very different but I think the Tundra is not running up to par...yet


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## Builderml

I am going to have to look at the manual again when I get home tonight. Here is how I thought the tundra worked. Please correct me if I am wrong???? You start a fire from a cold firebox lets say, now when the temp hits 160* in the air jacket the fan comes on now once the temp goes down to 120* the fan turns off, but if the temp hit 200* in the air jacket it closes the damper that is if the damper is open. Again please correct me if I am wrong. To me if your only getting 100*-120* air getting pushed out by the time the air goes thru the Ductwork it will be cold.


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## Builderml

Brenn, could you have your controller stack temp set to low at 500*. I think your the one that told me that the magnet type suface temp gauges read about 1/2 of what the internal temp is. With the damper open and a full firebox I have no issue hitting 400-440 surface temp. At which point if I just let it go the damper door automatic closes.  With the damper closed and in cruise mode its about 150-200 surface temp.  But if it is true and surface reading is half the internal temp I am running at almost twice the temps you are. Just an idea, keep us posted


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I am going to have to look at the manual again when I get home tonight. Here is how I thought the tundra worked. Please correct me if I am wrong???? You start a fire from a cold firebox lets say, now when the temp hits 160* in the air jacket the fan comes on now once the temp goes down to 120* the fan turns off, but if the temp hit 200* in the air jacket it closes the damper that is if the damper is open. Again please correct me if I am wrong. To me if your only getting 100*-120* air getting pushed out by the time the air goes thru the Ductwork it will be cold.


I have one of the older models that had the fan and limit switch on the back of the firebox instead of over the HEs like it is now, so my duct air temps run a little differently than on the newer ones. It also has an adjustable switch instead of the preset factory one. I have though about moving the switch up top but I know that is more of a fine tuning issue and isn't going to help me get the heat exchanged, which I feel is the real issue right now.
I did bump the controller temp up some, but that really only gets the duct temps up (somewhat) while the damper is open and doesn't make any difference once the damper is closed for a while. Like I said before, I have quit using the tstat for now because it wants the damper open too much and the wood just goes POOF! Well, I get a pile of coals that don't seem to heat the house, which I understand if it is really cold out, but if this thing can't heat the place under warmish conditions then I gotta think there is an issue somewhere here. Don't get me wrong, this thing is makin heat, I'm just heating the chimney instead of the house.

I won't be tearing into it tonight as it is still pretty cool here today and the lil stove upstairs would have a hard time keeping up tonight, that and the Tundra is still hot from this mornings load. It did OK today but I loaded 'er up pretty good with wood this morning too...a good bit more than what would have been required by my Yukon at these temps.
Oh, and you are correct, ducts temps much under 100* feel pretty cool, at least from across the room...


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## JRHAWK9

FWIW, my plenum temps on my Kuuma are usually 100-110 according to my HVAC thermometers I have stuck in the ductwork.  I have my low limit set to turn on at 115° and it shuts off I believe at 95°.  The blower will run the whole time and then cycle towards the end of the burn.


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## laynes69

I think the 2 outlet restriction doesn't help.  We have a total of 9 takeoffs (4-8" and 5-6"). If we had the 2 outlets, we would be in the same boat. Still though, 1200 square feet isn't much for a epa firebox that size. Our duct temps are usually 90-110 depending on the fire, sometimes higher.


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## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> 1200 square feet isn't much for a epa firebox that size


_Thank you_! Like I said, my little 1.2 CF stove does it, just has short burn times (4-6 hrs) And BTW, it doesn't take much wood to fill up 1.2 CF box lemme tell ya, kinda like playing Jenga, or whatever that game is, trying to get it all to fit 
If I can get the duct temps up higher (than current temps) when the damper is open, get the tstat satisfied, and then get the temps up a few degrees from where they are running now once the damper is closed for a while...I think we'll have something

Just to clarify, we are "actively " heating 1200 sq ft, 90% of the duct work goes to this area. There is also the 1200 ft of the basement, but, there is only two small ducts to that area, mostly radiant heat keeps the basement warm enough. There is also 600 ft more upstairs (cape cod style) but the ducts are normally turned off unless we have overnight guests or some other special goings on


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## maple1

brenn - a couple of your latest posts are sounding like some of those from our Nfld. friend of last year who also couldn't seem to get any heat. (Name escapes me right now). And nobody could understand why.

Hmmm...


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## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> brenn - a couple of your latest posts are sounding like some of those from our Nfld. friend of last year who also couldn't seem to get any heat. (Name escapes me right now). And nobody could understand why.
> 
> Hmmm...


Ha! I had the same thought. Ah, lemme think here... @bedrock1 I think it was, no?
Haven't seen 'im in a while, hope he comes around to post an update


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## maple1

Ya, might be good to hear from him again. Sounds like he had the same vintage furnace with the control thingie in the same place - think he had a bunch of back & forth with Drolet about getting a new one & mounting it in a revised location. Not sure he got it working good though, don't think we heard any kind of good or bad final word. Sure sounds like same story though.


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## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong???? You start a fire from a cold firebox lets say, now when the temp hits 160* in the air jacket the fan comes on now once the temp goes down to 120* the fan turns off, but if the temp hit 200* in the air jacket it closes the damper that is if the damper is open.



That's the correct idea, although those numbers are different than my Tundra.  My manual says the blower turns on above 140F and turns off below 120F, although over many tests it seems my blower snap disc is 100/120F instead.  I might just be imagining but I thought there was discussion here where SBI changed the blower snap disc to 100/120, and it might also have had to do with where the snap disc was located (as Brenn said there have been a couple locations for them).  

And then lastly I think the overtemp cutout to shut the damper is 160F instead of 200F but either one wouldn't surprise me.  Again, both kinds might have been issued in the past for the known different mounting locations.

Clear as mud?!?!


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## brenndatomu

Well, my mirror almost spontaneously combusted but I got a bit better look at the top of the firebox. I slide the baffle forward and used my mirror and a light to get a look at the back of the firebox (above the baffle) where the HE tubes attach, it isn't _terrible_, but from what I could see from my quick look there is enough crud to warrant a good cleaning, it's gotta help anyways


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## STIHLY DAN

I think you need to slow down your air via the fan or best by larger and/or more ducts. I do not believe that you should be able to feel the outlet of your ducts more than 2 ft away. A soft 120*/110* heat should heat your place fine as long as there are enough outlets providing it. At 0* I feel no moving air in the house but 115* outlet temps will keep it 70* inside.  Good luck.
P.S is your ductwork insulated?


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## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> I think you need to slow down your air via the fan or best by larger and/or more ducts. I do not believe that you should be able to feel the outlet of your ducts more than 2 ft away. A soft 120*/110* heat should heat your place fine as long as there are enough outlets providing it. At 0* I feel no moving air in the house but 115* outlet temps will keep it 70* inside.  Good luck.
> P.S is your ductwork insulated?


Fan is on low. Large ducts restricted to give .2 static pressure per the manual. Some insulated, some no. The ones that aren't are in heated space


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## Builderml

Well this morning i wanted to get exact numbers of what the temps are when i hit the high limit. After loading the firebox 3/4 full and about10-15 mintues later the damper closed on its own. I took the surface temp reading on top just forward and to the right of the gray box. Can you see the little red dot? The temp reading was about 210*-215*, So i guess its safe to say that the high limit is in fact 200* on my unit.
	

		
			
		

		
	





Brenn,  just so i understand your Tundra is hooked up to existing duct work from your primary heat source? If so i think this may be part of the issue. I know its allowed in the US to hook up into existing duct work.Not in Canada. Here are my thoughts on tying into existing duct work. #1 the static pressures for residential duct work is normally about .1 . While you may have the static pressure at .2 closer to the furnace once its hits the branches and other duct work the airflow dies right down. Allowing the air to cool way down not giving you much if any heat in the areas you want them. For example myself and  Matt did duct work just for the Tundra and are very please and i am getting nice warm air in my longest run but keep in mind all my duct work is designed at .2 allowing the air to really move fast not allowing it much of a chance to cool down in the ducts. The duct work i have is non-insulated in a not heated basement too, I could see the Tundra not being able to do the job if dumped into to much duct work, Just another thought and i may be off base with my theory.` Some may have success tying into existing duct work if small enough while others with larger duct work my not be satisfied,


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## Builderml

Another though on tying into existing duct work is you have all the air in your return ducts working against you coming behind your supply air cooling it down that much more.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Can you see the little red dot? The temp reading was about 210*-215*


Thanks for doing that builder! I'll hafta check mine at that exact spot, but I was shooting temps at different places last night and I was getting numbers WAY lower than that. I assume your blower was running by this point.
Yes, Tundra is tied into existing ductwork, I hear what you are saying but my issue is there is not much heat to begin with, like I said before, the highest duct temp that I have seen (and this is _at_ the furnace) is 120 with the blower running and the damper door open, and roaring fire is HOT!


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## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> Yes, Tundra is tied into existing ductwork, I hear what you are saying but my issue is there is not much heat to begin with, like I said before, the highest duct temp that I have seen (and this is _at_ the furnace) is 120 with the blower running and the damper door open, and roaring fire is HOT!



I see now....I thought you meant you had 120° at the registers. That's sounds awfully low. Do you have the damper to close completely, or does it remain open a little?


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## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> I see now....I thought you meant you had 120° at the registers. That's sounds awfully low. Do you have the damper to close completely, or does it remain open a little?


I do have a shim in to keep it cracked just a bit.
Just to keep everybody on the same page, I am measuring flue temps internally with a TC and getting the readout from my temp controller, the duct temp is internal via a digital probe in the duct about 2' above the furnace. Other temps are from a infrared thermometer...which works pretty good on the flat black surfaces of the furnace
If I were getting 120* at the register...I'd be thrilled. Even 110-120 at the furnace works, its just that temp is frequently elusive and 90-100 at the furnace is more common, which doesn't work real well. Don't get me wrong, we are not freezing to death here, but my gut tells me this thing is capable of much more than I'm getting. Comparing mine with @Builderml results, sounds like we are comparing a Prius and a F250 powerstroke
I fired the stove this AM so I can tear into 'er tonight


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## JRHAWK9

I know I don't have a Tundra, but the 100°-110° temps I see are also about 2' above the furnace in the plenum taken using an HVAC thermometer.  This is with the blower on low.  My blower turns off when the HVAC thermometer in the plenum reads 95°, which is what the snap disc is set to do (on at 115° and off at 95°).  When I have the furnace set on high and have it really humming along in the middle of a burn I can see plenum temps 110°-112° with the blower on high.  With the furnace set on low and fan on low I see very consistent 100° plenum temps.   The cold air intake temps are always pretty much the same as the room temp on the main level.  This tells me I have good internal circulation with using an open staircase for the cold air return.

Heck, I also have another HVAC thermometer placed about 8' down stream of the wood furnace in the main trunk line of the supply duct and even when my LP furnace runs I believe I see main line duct temps around 120°.  It happens to be placed around 8' downstream of the LP furnace as well.  I don't expect my wood furnace duct temps to be remotely equal to the temps I see when the LP furnace is running.

The constant 100° plenum temps with the wood furnace set on low is enough to keep this poorly insulated house warm.  In these 20° nights and 35° days I can't keep a constant fire going all day as it will get too warm in the house.  I've only been putting in 35lbs at night and then 35lbs in the morning and then just re-light a fire the following night again.  It seems to keep the house 72°-74°.  This is a little over half of the wood I would typically use a day when it's cold out and burning all day.  On real cold nights last year the house would drop down cooler than I would prefer in the mornings at the end of a burn cycle.  This house seems to lose A LOT of heat once the temps drop below 10° or so.  It's not a very tightly built or well insulated, we averaged 1,300 gallons of LP a year from 2005-2008 (highest was 1,550 gallons), with a 92% efficient furnace in a ~1,100SF log cabin style house (lots of volume though).  It's built on a 32'x42' rectangular footprint.  Back when heating with LP we did not heat the basement and therefore the basement was always right around 55°.  Now with burning wood, the radiant heat from the Kuuma alone is enough to keep the basement about the same temp as the rest of the house.

I think the main difference of plenum temps are the result of different duct sizes and pressures, like Stihly alluded to.  Although if you really are going through that much wood, the BTU's have to be going somewhere!  

I guess the whole point of this babbling post was to point out I have similar plenum temps as you and heating a house which has a higher heat load (going off of past fuel usage) without the issues you are having.


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## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Yep.
> I had 'er rocking and rollin this morning before we left for church and then came home to 70*...
> And when I say rockin and rollin, I mean over 500* internal flue temp (per the display on the controller) and a firebox FULL of flames. It was hard to stand 2.5' away from the door with shorts on...HOT! And my duct temps just barely got to 120* (measured ~2' above the furnace via digital internal temp probe)(oh, and the fan was running the whole time) Now 120* duct temp will raise the temp of the house, slowly, but as soon as the damper door closes, then that temp drops to below 110*...and slowly drops from there. If I use the Tstat, it is just not satisfied soon enough, and I just blast a bunch of heat (and wood) up the stack, even using the temp controller. Seems the way @3fordasho is using his is working the best for me too, no tstat.
> If I had a fire like that going in my Yukon it would result in 150* duct temps (and open windows on a day like today in the 30s-40s) But it is a much larger unit at 140k BTU (gross) with a very large HE.
> 
> So your flue temp is perfect, maybe a bit low even. So you are not losing heat up the chimney. Low temps in ductwork so no heat getting in the air. Your unit is so hot its tough to stand 2 1/2 ft away.  So It sounds like your not exchanging with the air and are mostly radiant heating the basement. 1) The air may be moving to fast across the exchanger to pick up the heat. ( reasonable scenario if you feel the air blowing on you from a few ft away.) Try opening all dampers and see what happens. 2) Air moving across the HE may not be going over the whole thing, Turbulence in air flow? think fast moving water in a river, pools of water just swirling around. ( form and direction of ductwork connections at furnace)  3) your idea of severe insulating factor of some sort at/in HE. ( tear whole thing apart clean and inspect)
> 
> Anyways, these two machines are very different but I think the Tundra is not running up to par...yet


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## laynes69

That's my thought on it also. I don't have to have a raging fire to have a good heat output. Actually, I've had some lazier fires with minimal secondaries, and the heat output was excellent. No doubt, air could be bypassing the exchanger, or there's too much pressure in the furnace.


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## Builderml

Brenn, I have a couple more temp readings for you, I took the readings in the same spot as I did for the high limit in the earlier post with the picture. At that spot my temp reading are as follows
Fan comes on at 130-135, fan shuts off at 110-115. Can never have enough info when trying to find a problem. Good luck


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## JRHAWK9

This morning seeing the Kuuma was at the end of it's burn cycle with the blower not running I decided to run our LP furnace for the heck of it in order to monitor the duct temperature.  Sampled in the main line trunk ~8' away from the source.  The house was 73°-74° at the time and the basement room where the furnaces are was 76°.  Outside temp was mid 20's overnight. 

Anyway, the temp jumped up to 110° rather quickly, and then gradually got up to and settled in at 118° where it stayed for a good 5-10 minutes.  I ran it a total of 20 minutes.  Never reached 120°. 

It's intriguing my LP furnace duct temps are similar to and even lower than what some of you guys are seeing for wood furnace duct temps at or near the source.  I have always read not to expect the same vent temp out of a wood furnace as compared to a LP/oil/NG furnace because fossil fuel furnaces cycle while wood furnaces provide constant heat throughout the burn cycle.     

What am I not seeing here?  lol   Why are his ducts temps similar to mine but yet not enough to keep his house warm when his house has less of a heat requirement.


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## NateJD

Haven't contributed much, just read everything so far so I thought I would give a rundown of my install. House is 1917 bungalow, 1800 sq ft, minimal insulation.  Chimney is 26 ft external with 6" insulated liner, barometric damper at -0.5 in of wc. I finally got the furnace fired up this week. One 8" duct run is about 15 feet with 2 registers then another 15 feet of 6" with two more registers (4x10s). Other run is 25 feet of 8" with two registers, then 10 feet of 6" with three registers. One register on each run goes to the second floor. Static pressure is reading 0.25 on short run and 0.3 on longer run.  Coldest it has been is 24, with the days getting to mid 30's. I set the propane furnace to 65 then try to keep it and heat pump from running with the tundra.  The wood I'm using right now is over 2 yr old cherry and some unknown lighter wood both reading around 13%. So on a typical day I wake up at 5 to a 65 degree house. I'll burn wood wide open for about an hour to get up to 68, top off the load and let char 20 minutes, shut the damper (thermostat controlled) and leave for work. Home at 4:30 to a 65 degree house but enough coals to relight with.  Burn hard another hour to get warmed back up, reload at 9-9:30, wait 20 minutes for wood to char then off to bed.  I'm not disappointed, but not totally happy either. If I am home I can keep the heat pump and propane from running and I'm sure what I am doing will help utility bills a good bit.  I'm afraid the unit is a bit undersized for what I need. Years ago my dad insulated the floor between the basement and first floor and I am in the process of moving that insulation to the attic. It's hard to really insulate this old bungalow due to inaccessible areas above upstairs bedrooms. I really don't see this furnace hanging in there when in gets below 10 degrees like the last two winters, but I think it will be ok down into the teens. Last year at -12 degrees my 120,000 btu propane ran 50-55 minutes per hour to give you an idea of my heat load. Other observations.....if I shut the damper too early I can get some clear liquid that smells strong out the back of the furnace at the stove pipe connecter. Break in fires I didn't get any smoke, but smell has lingered and is gradually decreasing. Blower is on high. Gives me correct static pressure and seems to deliver the most heat to the house but is pretty noisy. I feel I did everything according to the manual except my duct runs may be too long. Was hoping for some better burn times,  but that's getting a little better as I learn how to deal with the furnace on a daily basis. Any insight or comments will be welcome.


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## NateJD

Oh and I thought it important to add I'm not loading to the gills either. Usually about 5-6 splits so maybe 3/4 load at the biggest.


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## DoubleB

Nate,
Thanks for the write-up.  Good datapoints.

Agreed that based upon 50-55 minutes per hr of 120,000 Btu LP furnace, sounds like your Tundra isn't going to cut it alone on those coldest days.  But it'll still get rid of most of your LP bill.

One thought--you report that you burn with the damper wide open for an hour on a new load to get the house up to temp.  Although SBI doesn't prohibit it, I'd avoid doing that myself since I'm leary of my cracking.

Also, with the damper open you burn the wood twice as quickly but only get a fraction more heat output.  You'll be more efficient with the damper closed, and I prefer that even if it takes a bit longer to increase the house from 65 to 68.

Just some thoughts.  Glad it's working well enough at least out of the gates.


----------



## brenndatomu

Thanks for the temp stats guys. Hey @Builderml, would you mind getting me a pic of what it looks like on your unit where the blower attaches to the furnace. Just pull the filter and show me that area, if ya don't mind, thanks!


JRHAWK9 said:


> Why are his ducts temps similar to mine but yet not enough to keep his house warm when his house has less of a heat requirement.


Because I'm not getting duct temps as high as yours. The temps I stated were 2' above the furnace, I haven't checked duct temps further down the line, or at the registers, I probably should though. I only get temps above 100* while the damper is open, or maybe for a while after the damper closes during the intense part of the secondary burn. Once that is over we are definitely under 100* duct temps right above the furnace. Like I said before, If I had 110-120* duct temps (consistently) I would have no problem heating the place with that, but 90s, even 80s (remember, I have the old style fan switch in the back) during the end of the burn cycle are barely cuttin it, and the weather is pretty mild, so I don't have a lot of faith that this is gonna work out when the temps drop. I guess I need to move the fan switch, see if that makes any real difference, one thing at a time though.



NateJD said:


> Any insight or comments will be welcome.


My 2 cents, lower your blower speed 1 or 2 speeds, your static pressures are higher than they need to be.

An update on the case of the "missing heat heater"
I'm away for the holiday and I forgot my camera, so y'all gonna hafta wait for the pics. But I tore the Tundra apart last night to clean the firebox above the baffle and super clean the HEs. Good news was that the secondary air tubes came right out. I had read where some said that the tubes warp after a while and are very difficult to get out. Baffle came right out and looked to be in relatively good shape. There definitely was some light colored (white) fluffy soot build up in the front part of the upper firebox. It was more creosote lookin at the back of the firebox and going into the HEs. Things cleaned up pretty well in there. What I found interesting was that the top of the firebox is double walled. They have a thin piece of sheet metal plug welded to the actual top of the firebox. The light colored soot was where the double wall is, with some darker spots where the welds are, probably due to the heat transfer to the main body being cooled by the blower. The darker stuff was in the back where it goes to single wall.
I cleaned the HEs again, I found that the 4x6 rectangular wire brush that I have for cleaning the HEs on my Yukon actually worked pretty well getting into the side HEs of the Tundra, even the center one. I thought they were pretty clean until I shined the light in there and could see ridges where some of the buildup came off. It looks like maybe there was a thin layer of creosote once upon a time that got baked on and was REALLY hard to get off, lots of scraping with various tool and brushes. Kinda like when the dental hygentist scrapes plaque off your teeth.  I ran out of time to get it all, but 95% of it is gone. If Santa brings me a Soot Eater for Christmas I will try to get the rest off with that.  The tricky thing is, without very close inspection, you would have never been able to tell that the HEs weren't clean, like down to bare metal, it was black and smooth.

My theory was that I wasn't getting any heating from the top of the firebox (like you do from a stove) but after finding the double wall firebox top, it is apparent to me that they are not that concerned with getting heat from the firebox and are relying mostly on the HEs to do the heavy lifting. I fired back up last night but was running out of time to play with things so I don't know if I made any real progress or not. My initial impression was that it didn't make a big difference.


----------



## DoubleB

Thanks for the detailed report.  Hopefully you underestimated the insulation of what you removed, but the double wall ceiling does sound like reduced heat transfer no matter what.  I don't remember mine having a double wall when I cleaned it in the spring, but I often don't observe everything.

Just a really long shot here, but maybe you could take off the front/rear covers and inspect inside the air jacket.  Who knows how well the previous owner used a filter, or what else could be in there, and wouldn't it just be something if there is junk on the outside of the HE tubes and firebox.  I know I'm stretching it, but it's an easy check.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Just a really long shot here, but maybe you could take off the front/rear covers and inspect inside the air jacket. Who knows how well the previous owner used a filter, or what else could be in there, and wouldn't it just be something if there is junk on the outside of the HE tubes and firebox. I know I'm stretching it, but it's an easy check.


Thinkin about it, even if it turns out to be clean, I'd just like to know how it is made and put together, exactly.


DoubleB said:


> I don't remember mine having a double wall


I wouldn't have noticed it either if not for giving things a VERY thorough inspection, that and the one back corner was slightly warped and hanging down just a bit. I started pokin around more after I seen that. They have things tucked in pretty good, you never notice unless maybe you were looking at a brand new one. I got some good pics so I can point it out to y'all


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I'd just like to know how it is made and put together, exactly.



Me too.  I can't wait for the pictures.  It's always great when someone else is willing to do the work.  Thanks!


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Did you open your dampers? What does your tie ins look like?


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Thanks for the temp stats guys. Hey @Builderml, would you mind getting me a pic of what it looks like on your unit where the blower attaches to the furnace. Just pull the filter and show me that area, if ya don't mind, thanks!


I plan on giving the Tundra the first chimney cleaning tomorrow(Friday) to see how dirty she got over the time it has been used. I'll try to get you those pictures of the blower attachment area, won't be that easy to do. I have a 12" return duct tied into the side of the plenum  giving me no access points.I sealed everything up so i wouldn't be sucking in basement air. Once i pull the filter out all i have is a 1" slot. I was thinking of drilling an inspection hole in the return plenum so i could see in there and check the filter without taking it out. Maybe cover the hole with plexi glass. I'll see what i can do.
Enjoy your Turkey everyone!!


----------



## Builderml

I got around to reading the manual this morning, The manual states as follows:
Fan on 140*
Fan off 120*
Damper door closes 160*


----------



## laynes69

That's odd, a false top. There's where alot of heat exchange occurs. That would explain a lack of heat.


----------



## Matt78

Bullderml. I could get a pic when I get home on Sunday for Brenn. Mine just has the filter box on it. 

A lot of good info to read through on the last few pages. Thanks and happy thanksgiving!


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> That's odd, a false top. There's where alot of heat exchange occurs. That would explain a lack of heat.


Yeah, kinda, there is no space between them, but definitely two layers. I would guess it is there as a flame shield.
That's why I was thinking maybe that was where my heat exchange loss was occurring (if it turned out to be in need of a good cleaning) because on a stove, the top is the main "heating surface", but as I said before, it is obvious that they aren't super concerned with capturing heat directly from the firebox since it is completly insulated in some form or fashion. The bottom part is completly covered in two layers, firebrick and 1/8" thick ceramic insulation blanket behind that. Then the "two ply" metal top above the baffle.
Also, if they were concerned about capturing heat from the firebox top, they would tell you in the manual to clean that area regularly.
I assume that the newer Tundras, like builderml's machine, has the same two ply top, and he is not lacking for heat exchange...


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Did you open your dampers? What does your tie ins look like?


Yup, blower amps went up, temp went down. (I have the unit plugged into a Kill-A-Watt monitor)(yeah, I like gadgets and gauges )
I am using the two side duct holes as recommended, I have two 8" pipes straight up into the main trunk line. I have the Yukon blocked off so the airflow can't back feed.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Yup, blower amps went up, temp went down. (I have the unit plugged into a Kill-A-Watt monitor)(yeah, I like gadgets and gauges )
> I am using the two side duct holes as recommended, I have two 8" pipes straight up into the main trunk line. I have the Yukon blocked off so the airflow can't back feed.



Open return, or ducted?


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Open return, or ducted?


I have the filter access door off of the Yukon and the filter of the Tundra is facing it, about 3' away. I have checked the air temp of the air down by the floor in the furnace room VS the return air from the duct, 1 or 2 degrees difference. A couple days ago I remember going upstairs and thinking that it was warmer in the basement than upstairs


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Thanks and happy thanksgiving!


Thanks! Happy Thanksgiving to y'all too.
We are chillin at the in-laws for a couple days...literally. Gas heated 5000 sq ft stone mansion...f-f-f-freezing here. Much colder here than at home, even when we are using the Tundra!


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> I have the filter access door off of the Yukon and the filter of the Tundra is facing it, about 3' away. I have checked the air temp of the air down by the floor in the furnace room VS the return air from the duct, 1 or 2 degrees difference. A couple days ago I remember going upstairs and thinking that it was warmer in the basement than upstairs



Did you happen to look at the insulation on the jacket? If the insulation gets loose it can block air flow when the fan comes on.

Also, I am a little pissed at you tonight. I spent the day busting butt cutting down trees and bringing them home.  After all this talk of dirty heat exchangers and it being 55* out, tonight I cleaned mine. Every muscle in my body was either screaming or cramping and there I was cleaning a heat exchanger because you guilted me into it. With the little wood that I have  I cant spare a BTU. I did find a few bird skeletons. I'll be over it tomorrow.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> With the little wood that I have


  

EDIT: I just realized that this quote makes it look like I'm laughing at your manhood... What I meant was, I was pickin up on your sarcasm of acting like you are out of wood, when I know you are building "lumber mountain", what you cuttin for winter '20-'21 today?


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Did you happen to look at the insulation on the jacket?


Haven't taken the cabinet apart...yet.


STIHLY DAN said:


> If the insulation gets loose it can block air flow when the fan comes on.


There is a bunch of air flow coming out when I remove one of the duct connector block off plates, actually a surprising amount for the fan being on "low". And I didn't hear any flapping or buzzing like I would expect if there was loose insulation


STIHLY DAN said:


> After all this talk of dirty heat exchangers and it being 55* out, tonight I cleaned mine.


You should post pics of the ridiculous amount of nothing that comes out of a Vaporfire when you clean it, most of these guys have probably never seen anything like it out of a wood burner. I'm gonna post my cleaning pics...you post yours! If you don't want to put them on a Tundra thread then put 'em on a Kuuma thread and then just drop a link here. The only area that I found that had the white powder that you always get was the front 3/4 of the firebox top, above the baffle.


----------



## brenndatomu

OK, we're back home now and I'm thawing out in front of the stove after "chillin" at the inlaws for Turkeyday. Anyways, here is the firebox and HE cleaning pics I promised. As a reminder, this is a ~3 YO furnace and I have no idea if this area has ever been cleaned before or not.



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Front 3 tubes and the baffle removed, looking in the door and up to the right


	

		
			
		

		
	
 In the back on the left, the rectangular hole is the opening to left HE connector


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Left side


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Looking in the door and up


	

		
			
		

		
	
 This is after I cleaned some, I wanted to try to show how much buildup there was. This is looking back at the backside of the front of the firebox, at the top. Actually, you are looking at the heat shield on the back of the damper door intake box there at the bottom of the pic.

File is full for this post, more pics to come...


----------



## brenndatomu

...cleaning pics continued.


	

		
			
		

		
	
 In the back, to the left


	

		
			
		

		
	
 ...to the right


	

		
			
		

		
	
 After cleaning. Notice the black spots around the edges where the welds for the doublewall top are


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Here is a closeup of the left HE connection, from the back, camera pointed to the left and back to the front a bit. This is where I noticed the double wall top, you can see the edge hanging down just a bit there. And that black lump (center top) is the weld...


	

		
			
		

		
	
  After cleaning, in the back, to the right, once again notice the weld in front of the HE hole for the doublewall, and you can see the edge of the doublewall there again, right where the tan meets black


----------



## brenndatomu

...more pics


	

		
			
		

		
	
 The center HE tube after cleaning the firebox, but before cleaning the tube itself.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Because I'm not getting duct temps as high as yours. The temps I stated were 2' above the furnace, I haven't checked duct temps further down the line, or at the registers, I probably should though. I only get temps above 100* while the damper is open, or maybe for a while after the damper closes during the intense part of the secondary burn. Once that is over we are definitely under 100* duct temps right above the furnace. Like I said before, If I had 110-120* duct temps (consistently) I would have no problem heating the place with that, but 90s, even 80s (remember, I have the old style fan switch in the back) during the end of the burn cycle are barely cuttin it, and the weather is pretty mild, so I don't have a lot of faith that this is gonna work out when the temps drop. I guess I need to move the fan switch, see if that makes any real difference, one thing at a time though.



Your duct temps aren't all -that- much lower than my plenum temps though, although mine are more consistent based upon what you said above.   My plenum temps 31 inches above the top of the furnace are always 100°-110° during a burn.  I'd say 80% of the time they are right around 100° when the furnace is on low.  The blower shuts off when the temp gets down to 95°

I think having consistent 110°-120° plenum temps are unrealistic (if you are looking for your blower to be running constantly and not cycling in order to keep up those temps), as my LP FURNACE mainline duct temps only 8' from the LP FURNACE are only getting up to those temps.....lol  My wood furnace duct temps at this same location are usually 1-2° cooler than they are at the plenum 31" above the wood furnace as mentioned above. 

Got home today from the family farm, the house was 63°.  I turned the LP furnace on and let it run awhile while I made a fire in the Kuuma.  My LP duct duct temps 8' from the furnace only reached 110° this time running for about 15-20 minutes.  This is a 75,000 BTU LP furnace.  For me, if I were running consistent 110°-120° plenum temps with the Kuuma it would be like running my 75,000 BTU LP furnace 8-12 hours straight.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

That HE opening seems/looks like 6X6, is this true? If so, that is the issue and no fix for that. Also explains a lot.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> That HE opening seems/looks like 6X6, is this true? If so, that is the issue and no fix for that. Also explains a lot.


Where? The holes from the firebox or the clean out door? The holes from the firebox are probably 4.5" x 3". The side HEs are about 4.5" diameter and the center one is 6".
So what exactly are you pointing out as the issue here? I'm cornfused(er)


----------



## Builderml

So after nearly 6 weeks of burning and yesterday being near 60 I decided to give the chimney and H.E and good cleaning, I used a 6" poly brush and 24' of rod attached to a cordless drill. After cleaning the chimney I got about 4 cups of black powder. I guess that's good but I really have no idea. It was all softwood burned during this time. So is that good or bad? Dry black powdery substance. I took the same 6" poly brush and ran it in all 3 H.E. tubes. It's tight on the smaller left and right tubes but did a really nice job cleaning everything up. So I do recommend using the 6" poly brush attached to a 4' rod to clean the H.E. tubes.
I also took the first 3 secondary burn tubes out and removed the baffle, wasn't anything I really had to clean in that area but still wanted to see what it looked like in there. I did notice the second layer of steel that Brenn has been talking about on the top of the firebox. When Brenn asked me to take a picture of how the blower motor is attached it came to my attention that my dumb axx also does not have access to the fan speed control. Guess I do need to make an access panel to get in there. Not sure what I was thinking but I figured the fan speed control was located in the gray box located at the top edge of the furnace so when I opened it up to take a look I had a few choice words for that smart move on my part. That's pretty much it for now. Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> also does not have access to the fan speed control. Guess I do need to make an access panel to get in there


Thanks for the cleaning info builder, 4 cups doesn't sound too bad to me, but I dunno? 
As far as fan speed access, the filter kit comes with two sheet metal panels that can be screwed onto either side or the back. You have to cut out the factory panel (it's already slotted, you just have to finish the cut) then one of the 2  panels can be screwed on over the hole...unless your return air duct attaches to the right side (same side as the "controls" box) then you are on your own for access. Don't worry about getting in there just for my sake, Mat78 said he'd get the pic I was after, thanks though!


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I have the unit plugged into a Kill-A-Watt monitor



Hey Brenn, here are some more numbers for comparison:

I'm 90 minutes into a burn, full load mostly box elder and a couple small elm splits.

I just lost enough offgassing to maintain the secondaries, and my return temp was 68F and air jacket temp next to limit switch was 115F.  I measure air jacket it by removing the screw for the unused cover for the side outlet on the top of the furnace, and putting my DMM thermocouple into the hole.  The hole is about 1 inch away from the damper cutout snap disc.

Fan speed 1 draws 200 Watts (with the damper closed, the damper draws another 9 Watts if energized).

So, with a stabilized heat output with the secondaries after the damper was closed for quite a while, 200W blows enough cfm for a 47F temp rise.

What is your wattage and temp rise in those conditions?

Thanks for the nice pictures too.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> I had a few choice words for that smart move on my part.



You and me both.  I think all of us can find a thing or two we wish we would have done differently.  And usually go back and modify it.  Just good experience is all.

Your 4 cups sounds pretty good to me.  I'm sure someone has done better, but not me.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> I'm 90 minutes into a burn, full load mostly box elder and a couple small elm splits.
> 
> I just lost enough offgassing to maintain the secondaries,



How long was your over all burn time on that load?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Where? The holes from the firebox or the clean out door? The holes from the firebox are probably 4.5" x 3". The side HEs are about 4.5" diameter and the center one is 6".
> So what exactly are you pointing out as the issue here? I'm cornfused(er)



My bad buddy. Reread what you wrote, I see there are 3 openings not one. So what does the he look like? I am envisioning 3 square vertical columns in the rear that then send 3 round cylinders to the front mating into 1 box.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> My bad buddy. Reread what you wrote, I see there are 3 openings not one. So what does the he look like? I am envisioning 3 square vertical columns in the rear that then send 3 round cylinders to the front mating into 1 box.


You're close. 2 vertical rectangular columns (pretty short) that connect the 2 smaller side HEs to the firebox. The smoke/gasses travels forward to the cleanout box seen in my last pic, where they then converge together into the center HE, then out the back into the stovepipe


----------



## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> How long was your over all burn time on that load?



Started the fire 5 hours ago, damper closed ever since it got going.  2100 sq ft farmhouse is still 4F warmer than this morning, and the coals are still cycling the blower.

20F outside, sunny, not much wind.  I project I'll start another load about 4-5 hours from now.


----------



## laynes69

Here is a pic of our heatexchanger. It's easier to see since we have the plenum opening.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Thanks laynes, Tom is your unit insulated on the sides? What about the top, insulated? Are you 2 outlets on the front so the air has to travel past the HE? Maybe for giggles make up a plenum and try that, should be pretty easy for you being handy and all. I guarantee the problem is air flowing through the unit, its just a matter of finding what.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> EDIT: I just realized that this quote makes it look like I'm laughing at your manhood... What I meant was, I was pickin up on your sarcasm of acting like you are out of wood, when I know you are building "lumber mountain", what you cuttin for winter '20-'21 today?



2026 I believe.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> EDIT: I just realized that this quote makes it look like I'm laughing at your manhood... What I meant was, I was pickin up on your sarcasm of acting like you are out of wood, when I know you are building "lumber mountain", what you cuttin for winter '20-'21 today?



2026 I believe.


DoubleB said:


> Started the fire 5 hours ago, damper closed ever since it got going.  2100 sq ft farmhouse is still 4F warmer than this morning, and the coals are still cycling the blower.
> 
> 20F outside, sunny, not much wind.  I project I'll start another load about 4-5 hours from now.





DoubleB said:


> Started the fire 5 hours ago, damper closed ever since it got going.  2100 sq ft farmhouse is still 4F warmer than this morning, and the coals are still cycling the blower.
> 
> 20F outside, sunny, not much wind.  I project I'll start another load about 4-5 hours from now.



Don't know what happened here ^^^^^^^^. If your still getting heat you have to be off gassing longer than 90 min if the damper is closed. I suspect you are off gassing more on the end of 6 hrs or so.


----------



## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> If your still getting heat you have to be off gassing longer than 90 min if the damper is closed. I suspect you are off gassing more on the end of 6 hrs or so.



Maybe I'm not accurate in my offgassing terminology or something.  But after 90 minutes I couldn't get yellow/orange flames or anything on the secondaries, even with the damper open.  The firebox was more than half full of the charred splits which were mostly big chunks of coal as far as I can tell.  If I opened the damper at 90 minutes I could get some little blue flames off the splits, but not much more than that as for flames.

Regarding heat, though, the damper was closed all day yet the coals kept the blower cycling all the way until 9 hours later this afternoon.  

Remember the above was using 90% box elder, most of it 2-3 inches.  Today's results were pretty typical.  Smallish box elder only lasts so long for me.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Here is a pic of our heatexchanger. It's easier to see since we have the plenum opening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 168172


That is exactly what the Tundra looks like with the top off.


STIHLY DAN said:


> Thanks laynes, Tom is your unit insulated on the sides? What about the top, insulated? Are you 2 outlets on the front so the air has to travel past the HE? Maybe for giggles make up a plenum and try that, should be pretty easy for you being handy and all. I guarantee the problem is air flowing through the unit, its just a matter of finding what.


I'm guessin I'm still "Tom"? 
I don't think the top is insulated, it gets pretty warm. I thought the sides were because they stay pretty cool, but I looked at the parts diagram and don't see insulation.
I'm thinking about taking the sides off to have a look around, make sure everything "looks" right, and clean things if necessary.

I'm using the 2 side duct outlets, which is SBIs recommended setup, but it doesn't matter which holes you use, the air _has_ to come past the HEs. SBI says to use the side outlets because they are both pulling heat mainly off the side HEs. If you use the front/rear duct outlets, then you are pulling heat off the center HE more so, and then they (ducts) are in _series_, so the rear port will always be cooler than the front one. It is more of a _parallel_ setup when you use the side ports, and both sides should run about the same temp.

I very well may take a run at using a plenum, or at the very least try tapping into the front duct outlet along with the 2 side ones, there seems to be a lot of heat at that front port.

It was very interesting, I installed a temp controller (just like my setup) on my sisters Tundra today. She hasn't used it much yet because it was right at the end of the heating season 'til I got it installed last spring, and it has been so warm this fall/winter so far. (she snagged it when Menards was blowin 'em out for $1250 at the end of the winter 2014/2015) Anyways, when I put it in, I hung the existing plenum from the floor joist above and removed the old furnace (Yukon Big Jack) then slide the Tundra back under. 
So her setup uses a plenum, but only the two side duct holes are actually open into the plenum.  
I finished the controller and we fired 'er up...once up to temp and settled down, 100* AT THE REGISTERS with the Tundra cruising on the secondarys, damper closed! And this is with the return air having to come down the stairs and across a long and very cold basement floor. Totally different results compared to mine. The only real differences are that this unit has the fan and limit switches in the "new" spot, and then obviously the plenum. Speaking of the fan switch, it kicked on way earlier than mine would have so I was expecting cold or at least cool air...nope, nice n warm. Amazing. I'm just shaking my head here. 
Obviously I have some more investigative work to do...


----------



## KARB2014

brenndatomu said:


> That is exactly what the Tundra looks like with the top off.
> 
> I'm guessin I'm still "Tom"?
> I don't think the top is insulated, it gets pretty warm. I thought the sides were because they stay pretty cool, but I looked at the parts diagram and don't see insulation.
> I'm thinking about taking the sides off to have a look around, make sure everything "looks" right, and clean things if necessary.
> 
> I'm using the 2 side duct outlets, which is SBIs recommended setup, but it doesn't matter which holes you use, the air _has_ to come past the HEs. SBI says to use the side outlets because they are both pulling heat mainly off the side HEs. If you use the front/rear duct outlets, then you are pulling heat off the center HE more so, and then they (ducts) are in _series_, so the rear port will always be cooler than the front one. It is more of a _parallel_ setup when you use the side ports, and both sides should run about the same temp.
> 
> I very well may take a run at using a plenum, or at the very least try tapping into the front duct outlet along with the 2 side ones, there seems to be a lot of heat at that front port.
> 
> It was very interesting, I installed a temp controller (just like my setup) on my sisters Tundra today. She hasn't used it much yet because it was right at the end of the heating season 'til I got it installed last spring, and it has been so warm this fall/winter so far. (she snagged it when Menards was blowin 'em out for $1250 at the end of the winter 2014/2015) Anyways, when I put it in, I hung the existing plenum from the floor joist above and removed the old furnace (Yukon Big Jack) then slide the Tundra back under.
> So her setup uses a plenum, but only the two side duct holes are actually open into the plenum.
> I finished the controller and we fired 'er up...once up to temp and settled down, 100* AT THE REGISTERS with the Tundra cruising on the secondarys, damper closed! And this is with the return air having to come down the stairs and across a long and very cold basement floor. Totally different results compared to mine. The only real differences are that this unit has the fan and limit switches in the "new" spot, and then obviously the plenum. Speaking of the fan switch, it kicked on way earlier than mine would have so I was expecting cold or at least cool air...nope, nice n warm. Amazing. I'm just shaking my head here.
> Obviously I have some more investigative work to do...



I know your not really using the factory snap disc because you have the controller set up. But I do recall one member last year having SBI send him the new snap discs and he did report the fire would rage much larger and more intense. The new location the high limit snap disc is indeed a 200 deg open on rise. I know on my unit if I don't get the fire raging before letting it shut down I'm disappointed with the heat output. In the beginning of last year I was really getting frustrated with the unit. My issue was not letting it get hot enough(last year I was burning mostly 4yr old ash). Maybe try to eliminate using the controller for right now and from a cold fire box let it burn for at least 20-25 mins. With the Sycamore I'm burning for the shoulder season here I set my timer to 15 mins for a reload on hot coals. It gets f****** hot. But I will get really intense secondaries and really good heat output for a good few hours. With it being mid 30's out I will get about 6-7hrs out of the Sycamore and about 1/2 to 2/3 full fire box. This was a big tree so I got the rounds cut at only 8 inches long,It's hard to get the fire box full. Also it did take the time when installing mine last year to seal up around the blower box. There is some really big leaks around that box.


----------



## Matt78

Breendatomu... I believe you wanted a pic of around the blower. Seems to be a little gap between motor and furnace body, but not much air escaping.


----------



## brenndatomu

KARB2014 said:


> I know on my unit if I don't get the fire raging before letting it shut down I'm disappointed with the heat output. In the beginning of last year I was really getting frustrated with the unit. My issue was not letting it get hot enough


I know what you are saying, but I do have a raging fire...like I said earlier, it's hard to stand even remotely close to the door. The problem is a inferno in the firebox equals a warm chimney instead of a warm supply duct. Duct temps are good when the damper is open, but taper off after the damper closes, and fall too low to be of much good  after a (too short) period of time. Running the firebox and stack temp up higher in the beginning prolongs the inevitable temp slide a bit, but not much. I am very happy with the ways this things burns...it is just not transferring the heat to the air well.


KARB2014 said:


> Maybe try to eliminate using the controller for right now and from a cold fire box let it burn for at least 20-25 mins.


I can set the controller at any temp so no need to discontinue using it

I plan to make another attempt at super cleaning the HEs again tomorrow night since there was still a layer of crud in there that wouldn't come off completely last time. I made an adapter to be able to spin my chimney brush with my drill, bare metal or bust!
If that doesn't help, then plenum here we come!

I did pull the side off last night, everything looked to be in order, saw no issues. I will post pics later for anybody that wants to see a nekked Tundra


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Breendatomu... I believe you wanted a pic of around the blower. Seems to be a little gap between motor and furnace body, but not much air escaping.
> View attachment 168318


OK so the gap around the blower is still there, maybe a bit smaller than mine though. I sealed mine up because I remembered somebody posting that it leaked so much they couldn't hit .2 SP. Thanks for the pic


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> I did pull the side off last night, everything looked to be in order, saw no issues. I will post pics later for anybody that wants to see a nekked Tundra


As promised...


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Right side...


	

		
			
		

		
	
 ...toward the back


	

		
			
		

		
	
 bottom, where the blower comes in, and the pedastal/ashpan area...


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Another angle of the blower entrance...


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Wider angle, you can see the damper actuator rod that runs front to rear...


	

		
			
		

		
	
 The side panel with air deflector. It directs the air across the HEs and firebox top


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Another angle, you can see the deflector is mounted on a inner double wall panel


----------



## STIHLY DAN

That does not seem to be an air deflector as much as it seems to be an air cooling gap for the side. I would think that panel should be reversed, Maybe the air is going between the panels instead of across the HE.


----------



## DoubleB

I think Stihly Dan might be on to something...Does the "HEATMAX" logo install on the rear or front of your furnace, pointing forward or backwards?  I think it's supposed to install on the rear, but it looks like yours installs on the front?  The point is they might have installed the left panel on the right side (and vice versa), and it looks like those deflectors currently force the air up and out from the back, instead of up and out from the front (past the firebox and HX).

I don't completely see the total plan, but maybe something easy to check.

EDIT:  Look at the manual and it looks to me that your part 55 is installed in reverse.


----------



## maple1

DoubleB said:


> I think Stihly Dan might be on to something...Does the "HEATMAX" logo install on the rear or front of your furnace, pointing forward or backwards?  I think it's supposed to install on the rear, but it looks like yours installs on the front?  The point is they might have installed the left panel on the right side (and vice versa), and it looks like those deflectors currently force the air up and out from the back, instead of up and out from the front (past the firebox and HX).
> 
> I don't completely see the total plan, but maybe something easy to check.
> 
> EDIT:  Look at the manual and it looks to me that your part 55 is installed in reverse.


 
55- 'start off adaptor'? Looks OK to me? Or?


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> That does not seem to be an air deflector as much as it seems to be an air cooling gap for the side


It's both


STIHLY DAN said:


> Maybe the air is going between the panels instead of across the HE.


Nah, from running it with the duct connection holes open, I can state that the deflectors are doing their job


DoubleB said:


> Does the "HEATMAX" logo install on the rear or front of your furnace, pointing forward or backwards?


It's on the back, which is correct...the side panels fit on in a way that they can't be reversed
But the air deflectors...I _think_ they are correct, but I will double check the them to make double sure they are not reversed. Edit: Duh, just looked at my own pictures, it looks the same as the parts diagram.


maple1 said:


> 55- 'start off adaptor'? Looks OK to me? Or?


It depends which version of the manual you are looking at...the part reference #s change. The one that is online now shows # 31 and 57 being the left and right air deflectors


----------



## brenndatomu

I think I am on to something. I made an adapter so that I could spin my 6" chimney brush with my drill (thanks for the idea @Builderml ) and cleaned the heck outta the HEs last night (killed a fully charged L-ion battery!) I thought I had it spic n span in there until I looked very carefully with a bright light. There is a thin and highly polished  layer of baked on soot/creosote covering patches in all 3 HEs. It is about as thick as a heavy layer of paint (think old house paint) and to the "untrained" eye, it looks like bare metal. I confirmed it was not metal by hitting it with the torch...yep, it popcorned up like creosote does when heated real hot! This stuff is really hard and the chimney brush will be worn out before it all comes off. Scraping it off with a sharp edge works but is very time consuming and it is hard to reach much of it. I'm gonna wheel my oxy/acetylene torch in tonight and finish burning it off. I thought about spraying it with kerosene and just lighting it... but thought better of doing that, probably make a mini chimney fire 
I tried to get pics but the camera just didn't pic up what I was seeing in a way that shows up on the screen, sorry guys, gotta take my word on this one


----------



## maple1

One of those propane weed burner thingies might work too - could get it right in there. I think?

This is kinda like an Inspector Gadget episode - lol....


----------



## Buzz Saw

Is there any chemical available that would soften the creosote to make removal easier?


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> One of those propane weed burner thingies might work too - could get it right in there. I think?


I have a torch set, but I would hafta find and then borrow/rent a "weed burner" so...good idea though


maple1 said:


> This is kinda like an Inspector Gadget episode - lol....





Buzz Saw said:


> Is there any chemical available that would soften the creosote to make removal easier?


Probably, but it comes right off with a brush once you heat it to the "popcorn" stage


----------



## trx250r87

https://speedywhite.com/removing-creosote-with-speedy-white/

I have never personally used this but it sounds like it works.

Eric


----------



## Buzz Saw

brenndatomu said:


> I have a torch set, but I would hafta find and then borrow/rent a "weed burner" so...good idea though



Just tape a road flare to a yard stick [emoji12] 





brenndatomu said:


> Probably, but it comes right off with a brush once you heat it to the "popcorn" stage



If it's that easy you should look into buying a whole case of flares. [emoji14]


----------



## maple1

Ok - now we're into Red Green territory...


----------



## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> As promised...
> View attachment 168408
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right side...
> View attachment 168409
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...toward the back
> View attachment 168410
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bottom, where the blower comes in, and the pedastal/ashpan area...
> View attachment 168411
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another angle of the blower entrance...
> View attachment 168412
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wider angle, you can see the damper actuator rod that runs front to rear...
> View attachment 168413
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The side panel with air deflector. It directs the air across the HEs and firebox top
> View attachment 168414
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another angle, you can see the deflector is mounted on a inner double wall panel



So directly below the flue outlet on the back is another pipe that is below the top of the firebox. Is that the secondary air inlet? It seems big. What is it?


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> So directly below the flue outlet on the back is another pipe that is below the top of the firebox. Is that the secondary air inlet? It seems big. What is it?


Oh, yeah, I see what you are referring to. That is the tube that the fan (blower) switch is in. That tube is open to the "controls" box on the back there


maple1 said:


> Ok - now we're into Red Green territory...


Ha! And if you are a member over on AS, then you know what (who) my avatar is


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> This is kinda like an Inspector Gadget episode - lol....


Or maybe Scooby Doo, "The case of the missing heat"


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> Is that the secondary air inlet?


The secondary air comes in from the front, below the door. Just FYI...


----------



## 3fordasho

Recent observation now that I'm running both tundra's a bit, both with serial #'s in the 1340's.  The fan switch takes a lot more heat to run the fan on my 2nd install. So much so that the damper almost has to be open to have the fan come on.  Once the furnace has settled into secondary burn with air inlet closed the fan shuts off after a bit and takes a long time to come back on plus the top of the furnace is getting much hotter than my other Tundra.

 A quick IR check shows it's taking 20-30F more to get it to turn on.    I've ordered a adjustable fan switch to resolve the issue.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> Recent observation now that I'm running both tundra's a bit, both with serial #'s in the 1340's.  The fan switch takes a lot more heat to run the fan on my 2nd install. So much so that the damper almost has to be open to have the fan come on.  Once the furnace has settled into secondary burn with air inlet closed the fan shuts off after a bit and takes a long time to come back on plus the top of the furnace is getting much hotter than my other Tundra.
> 
> A quick IR check shows it's taking 20-30F more to get it to turn on.    I've ordered a adjustable fan switch to resolve the issue.


And when the fan is not running...there is probably not much heating going on. If it weren't for the fact that my fan switch is in the back (original location for the early models) and it is an adjustable switch, I don't think my fan would run as much as it does...and my "no heat" situation would be even worse than it is.
Sounds like your situation likely is as simple as a funky switch.
Interesting how different two of these things can be. I set both mine and my sisters up as close to identical as I could, and hers will run circles around mine (for now )


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> I think I am on to something. I made an adapter so that I could spin my 6" chimney brush with my drill (thanks for the idea @Builderml ) and cleaned the heck outta the HEs last night (killed a fully charged L-ion battery!) I thought I had it spic n span in there until I looked very carefully with a bright light. There is a thin and highly polished  layer of baked on soot/creosote covering patches in all 3 HEs. It is about as thick as a heavy layer of paint (think old house paint) and to the "untrained" eye, it looks like bare metal. I confirmed it was not metal by hitting it with the torch...yep, it popcorned up like creosote does when heated real hot! This stuff is really hard and the chimney brush will be worn out before it all comes off. Scraping it off with a sharp edge works but is very time consuming and it is hard to reach much of it. I'm gonna wheel my oxy/acetylene torch in tonight and finish burning it off. I thought about spraying it with kerosene and just lighting it... but thought better of doing that, probably make a mini chimney fire
> I tried to get pics but the camera just didn't pic up what I was seeing in a way that shows up on the screen, sorry guys, gotta take my word on this one


Glad i could help, It did do a really nice job cleaning the inside of the HE. I think i am going to get an 8" poly brush and cut it down a hair so its nice and tight to fit into the center tube. Thanks for the inside "naked tundra" photos. Did you use a steel or poly brush on the inside of the HE? If steel did it scratch the walls?


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, I drug the torch set into the basement tonight, and I _think_ I won.
The buildup seemed to puff up pretty easily and sometimes just pop right off when heated. For anybody familiar with metal working, it was kinda like mill scale when heating new carbon steel. Anyways, things cleaned up pretty well when I ran the brush through afterwards. I could tell I was down to the bare metal because there was a very light layer of surface rust hiding under there. Dunno if this is gonna make any real difference or not, but it sure can't hurt!
I don't know what it is about using a oxy/acetylene torch in the house, but it kinda made me nervous. At one point the torch popped loudly and went out, the way rosebuds do when set low and used in a confined spot. The loud POP was kinda amplified inside the center HE and it scared the poo outta me! I wasn't thinking about the fact that I was putting a ton of heat into the HEs (#6 rosebud tip) and I wasn't paying attention to the ducts temps. I looked up at one point and seen 230* on my digital thermometer!  I jumped the fan switch out for the remainder of the job...
This was probably not a solution that I would recommend for most people to try at home (I do all my own stunts...at my own risk )
Too bad it is too warm to try this thing out tonight 
If this doesn't work, then "plenums-are-us" here I come!


Builderml said:


> Did you use a steel or poly brush on the inside of the HE? If steel did it scratch the walls?


Steel, 'cause it was what I had. It just polished the walls like a wire wheel does on steel


----------



## sloeffle

For some reason I was cold ( house was at 70F ) so I fired up the Caddy. 

Plenum temps were bouncing between 132F - 134F
Register temps are 98F

Firebox was about one-third full and the secondaries were lit. 

My fire will eventually go out also when I close the damper door all of the way. The high tech solution that I came up with is to use a small finishing nail to prop the damper door open. It seems to the perfect amount of air to keep the fire going and to not fire it too much.


----------



## brenndatomu

@sloeffle , so these temps were with the furnace on "high fire"?
You are saying the fire goes out with the damper closed normally, or just during these warmer temps?


----------



## sloeffle

@brenndatomu, I rarely fill my firebox more than half full. I will call it a "medium fire". My thought is that I can always add more wood but I can't take it out. Temps below 5F will give her a run for the money.

Never had luck in any weather conditions with keeping the fire going with the damper closed. Maybe I don't have enough draft. Hopefully that manometer I am getting from you will solve that mystery. Chimney is 20' or 24' tall class A double wall.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> @brenndatomu, I rarely fill my firebox more than half full. I will call it a "medium fire". My thought is that I can always add more wood but I can't take it out. Temps below 5F will give her a run for the money.


The damper was open or closed when you were getting 98* at the registers?


----------



## sloeffle

Damper was open a 1/16th of an inch using the finish nail.

The fire will eventually go out if with the damper closed.


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, I'm a couple fires in on my HE supercleaning. It definitely helped, I'm running ~8-10* higher in the duct 2' above the furnace. I'm not sure if it is really making a real difference as far as keeping the house warmer, it _seems_ to have helped a little, maybe. Not enough time in the seat yet to know for sure. It is 71-72* in the house right now, I loaded ~1/2 a load last night at 11:30, and 31* for a low overnight. The fan is still cycling on/off right now (5 min on, 10 off) This goofy warm weather is making it tough for someone who is trying to methodically dial in his new wood furnace! 
Oh, I moved the adjustable fan control switch to the "new" position last night too. I think that was a step in the right direction. The fan comes on sooner after a reload, and doesn't blow quite as much cool air at the end of the run.
I'll live with this current setup for a bit to get a good feel for it, but I have sneaking suspicion that I will be installing a supply plenum before this is all over...


----------



## Matt78

brenndatomu said:


> but I have sneaking suspicion that I will be installing a supply plenum before this is all over...



One of the contractors I had give me a quote wanted to do this. He claimed I'd be able to extract more heat from the unit. Makes sence but I'm no pro! I'd be really interested if you did this and heard what your results were.


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> One of the contractors I had give me a quote wanted to do this. He claimed I'd be able to extract more heat from the unit. Makes sence but I'm no pro! I'd be really interested if you did this and heard what your results were.


It does make sense, there is a lot of heat radiating off of that top, especially toward the front outlet. I would probably uncover it also if I do a plenum, so it would be the two side and the front outlets open, for a total of 3.
I did a plenum on my sisters Tundra, it seems to be working good for them.


----------



## Smoke Signals

Just for future reference I have found that this stuff actualy works pretty well to soften hard creosote but it takes some time of use for it to do it's work.

Disclaimer: I have no association with Rutland nor do I benifet for the sale of this product in any way.


----------



## Builderml

Brenn, just to let you know once my fan comes on it stays on the whole burn. None of the 5 on/ 10 off stuff, the only time its does start to cycle is at the end when it just has some coals left.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn, just to let you know once my fan comes on it stays on the whole burn. None of the 5 on/ 10 off stuff, the only time its does start to cycle is at the end when it just has some coals left.


Yep same here, cycles at the end. I was over 9 hrs into the load when I posted that about the "5 on 10 off" thing.
I appreciate everybodys help here with posting their "stats" and everything. After running all weekend I do believe I have made progress. It is keeping the house warm...BUT, it is also not that cold out, so, if winter ever comes, we shall see


----------



## brenndatomu

It's been to warm here to run the Tundra much, but now just as I feared...the temp finally dropped outside and so did the inside temp too. She's just not keepin up. Low 20s overnight and I wake to 68-69 in the house this AM. Anything under 70 is too cold around here. And I don't do all this work makin firewood to be cold.
So yesterday I added a third duct connection, from the front hole. So I am using the two side holes and now the front one too. 
Comparing the temps externally about 2' above the furnace, the front pipe runs about 10* hotter than the other two. We'll see how this does. I thought I'd try this before installing an actual plenum, I was planning at least 3 pipes between the plenum and the main duct anyways. I have the 24" x 24" plenum that came with my Yukon that I never used...looks like a good candidate to me...after a few mods. It is 36" tall so it would need to be cut down a bit. 
One step at a time


----------



## Builderml

Interesting to see how she works with the third duct. Has that played havic on your static pressure at all? I too wake up to 67-69 if its cold at night. Cold being mid 20's and down. I am good with that as i know the Tundra is undersized for my application. I load at about 8-9pm before heading to bed. If i was to get up around 1am to put some more wood on that would be ideal and would keep the house in the low 70's.

So i have been doing some experimenting with the tundra over the last few weeks. I'll brake it down into 3 "test"
Method # 1 - I load the firebox full as i can get it and let the load get nice and hot, usually i'll let it bounce off the high limit a couple times at which point i will shut the damper down and just let her go into secondary mode.
Method #1 result- Nice long burn times 6 hours plus, I have made it overnight with a few coals still in the morning. But not much heat coming out at the end.  For me i think this will work best for when the temps will be mid 30's plus. Will keep house temp at 69-73 depending on outside temps.

Method # 2- I load firebox full let the load get nice and hot. By now my coffee is done and i head upstairs for a refill and turn the old style round thermostat to about 2* above what the current temp is on the thermostat. What i have noticed doing this and what i really like is i am able to bring the temp up fairly quick and still have a decent burn time. about 4-6 hours. The result of setting the round dial t-stat 2* higher is it cycles about 5min. damper open and about 5 min. damper closed for about the first hour, increasing my burn times with saving the wood while keeping real hot secondary burns. As the temp rises it just keeps the damper closed further increasing my burn time.
Method #2 result- Increased burn times. Bring up temp fairly quickly. I think this method will be best for most temps from teen's and 20's. So far this is my method of choice.
Here is a picture of how i have my t-stat's set up. The round for wood and digital for oil. You can see current temp in house is 71* with the oil furnace set at 67* as back up. By the way i am about 5 hours into this burn. The round dial temps are not accurate as you can see.


Method #3 - I load firebox full and just let her go wide open, She bounces off the high limit most of the time for the first hour.
Method #3-  Result crappy burn times 2-4 hours, Able to bring temp up faster but in all honesty i don't think it does it that much faster compared to method #2. I suspect i'll have to do this if temps drop below 10*. We shall see as i have not had temps below 20* so far.

Sorry for the long post but just wanted to give an idea of what i am doing in the short experience i have with the Tundra. As a side note when i heat with oil as in the past i keep the tstat set at 69*. So 71*is pretty warm for us. The digital Tstat may actually be off a touch because at 71* i can tell you its plenty warm. When i had the house up to 73* the wife had opened the windows. Also keep in mind these results are from burning softwood only mostly spruce/pine. I have been waiting for the temps to come down before i start burning the hardwood. I suspect i should be able to increase my burn times by about 1-2 hours. Hope this helps some others.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Years


----------



## laynes69

That false top has to be effecting the overall output of the furnace. Either that, or your home isn't as tight as you think. I dealt with the same thing when I got our Caddy. The old furnace would cook us out and I assumed the house was tight because of it. I upgraded and found the house was extremely loose. I had pretty much the exact results. Fast forward, I went 11 hours between loads overnight and the house kept above 73 overnight with temps in the mid 20's. We coast on coals for quite some time. I'll also add, you shouldn't need a huge flaming firebox for a clean burn. If we open the damper too long, it does affect burntimes.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Interesting to see how she works with the third duct. Has that played havic on your static pressure at all?


No, I have each one dampered individually so after a round or two of adjusting, I can get them all the same.


laynes69 said:


> That false top has to be effecting the overall output of the furnace.


I agree.


laynes69 said:


> Either that, or your home isn't as tight as you think


If you are referring to me then, maybe, but back before I upgraded the insulation I only had to use ~700ish gallons of oil per winter. And that was with an old 1940 coal-burner-converted-to-oil furnace. The other thing is that my Yukon is rated the same as the Tundra for output (140k gross) and it will heat us right outta here on the same or, really, I think maybe less wood that what I have been using. But to be honest, when I say "less" wood, I have to admit that is after I modded the Yook for a cleaner burn.


laynes69 said:


> We coast on coals for quite some time


Yah...ain't happening with the Tundra...very little heat output with coals, unless it is a firebox completely full of red screaming hot coals...and even then the fan cycles a good bit. The furnace room stays nice and warm though...80!? Feels cold when I go back upstairs  

I agree with what others have said about the rating of the Tundra...way to high. The only way it is gonna heat 2500 sq ft is if you have a "super-insulated" home, or live a good bit further south than Ohio.

For any of you that are members over on AS, remember a couple years ago when Spidey put that "EPA furnace" in and then froze all winter...yeah, I'm seeing what he was talking about here. Like him though, I won't give up on this until the horse is long dead and beat thoroughly! Theres got to be a way to get this thing to heat the house. I love the clean burn and the user friendly-ness of the Tundra...just need it to act like a furnace now!


----------



## laynes69

140,000 btus is an input rating, I believe it's around 90,000 btu high output, and around 60,000 average output. Even then, there's a curve and these numbers drop after so many hours. Just out of curiosity, I wonder how the new usstove furnaces output compares, being a similar setup. Luckily so far this winter had been nothing like the last, or you'd be in trouble. I'm rootin for you, but it sounds like you're running out of options.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> I agree with what others have said about the rating of the Tundra...way to high. The only way it is gonna heat 2500 sq ft is if you have a "super-insulated" home, or live a good bit further south than Ohio.


OK let me give you the specs of what I have going on.
2800sqft total living space,
Tundra ducted to about 2000 sq ft, remaining 800 sqft is still being heated but no ducts to those rooms, really aren't any cold spots in the house with the doors left open to those rooms,
2x4 walls with 1" air seal done with closed cell spray foam, r13 batts over spray foam, yes insulation is compressed some, blown in attic insulation about 18-20 inches worth,
Ceiling heights are 10' minimum, 650 sq ft at 14' high, 150 sq ft at 12' , large windows and doors so alot of glass area as well. I am sure most of my heat is at the ceiling. When I get on the ladder and change a bulb you can really tell where the heat is. Right now its 30* outside 70* in the house and I just came down stairs, blower just turned off so you know I am down to just a few coals.
I wouldn't say my house is super insulated but Tundra is doing to job, I don't see how at 2500 sqft with 8'/9' ceilings and OK insulation the tundra wouldn't do it. To give you another example the past two years I used 1500gallons of oil each year. During the cold months it was exaclty 300 gallons on month. So you know now why I am trying wood.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Either that, or your home isn't as tight as you think


I need to get my paws on one of those infra-red cameras one of these days...I'm sure there are improvements to be had here


laynes69 said:


> 140,000 btus is an input rating, I believe it's around 90,000 btu high output, and around 60,000 average output.


Wow, is it that low? The Yook is 140k in and 112k out...at least what they claim. It does have a HUGE heat exchanger..._54 sq ft total! _That is why the furnace is so darn big (that's it in my avatar pic)


laynes69 said:


> Luckily so far this winter had been nothing like the last, or you'd be in trouble. I'm rootin for you, but it sounds like you're running out of options.


Nah...I got an ace-in-the-hole...if it gets too cold, flip the switch on the Yukon, BAM, heat! 


Builderml said:


> To give you another example the past two years I used 1500gallons of oil each year. During the cold months it was exaclty 300 gallons on month


Right, you just made my point. I used half that oil...BEFORE insulation upgrades, and your Tundra is keepin up fine, mine not so much


----------



## Builderml

Brenn are you sure the controls you have on are not hurting you at all?


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn are you sure the controls you have on are not hurting you at all?


Nah, results before were even worse...I have been making some slow gains...besides I have tried all kind of different settings, to no avail...even not using it


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## laynes69

Brenn, how does your house do in these temps now (mid 30's). We can go a half hour or more before dropping a degree in the home. Before I started concentrating on the house, as soon as the blower would shut off, the house would drop. At 28 degrees we couldn't heat the house past 68 running full tilt. Now a bed of coals at those temps will keep the house 73-75.


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## brenndatomu

Oh, it's not bad at all. If it was 35 out with no wind (it is a brick house, so wind is not _quite_ as big of deal as with other types of construction), and the house was 72 inside, I would expect at least 8 hrs to get down to 70 (with no heat going)
As I have said before, the tiny little stove (1.2 CF) in the fireplace will raise the ground floor 3-5*, but with such a small firebox burn times are shorter, and full time heating with it would be a PITA, especially if you want to close a bedroom door or something. But it still goes to show that it is not that hard of a house to heat. If I had a bigger stove I would use it further into the depth of winter. A larger stove won't really (correctly) fit in the fireplace and there is no room for it outside the fireplace. Also, I hate cold floors, and the floors get cold when no heat is on in the basement so there is that...anyways...


laynes69 said:


> Now a bed of coals at those temps will keep the house 73-75.


Coals just don't translate into heat upstairs....


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## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> As I have said before, the tiny little stove (1.2 CF) in the fireplace will raise the ground floor 3-5*


On a day like today (mid 30s) I don't know if the Tundra is even capable of bringing the house temp up 3-5* with a stuffed to the gills load...maybe 3, not 5, no way


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## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> On a day like today (mid 30s) I don't know if the Tundra is even capable of bringing the house temp up 3-5* with a stuffed to the gills load...maybe 3, not 5, no way



That's crazy....I see where your coming from. If your flue temps are low and your firebox is hot, the heat is going somewhere. If you have a plenum, that would be my choice.


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## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> If you have a plenum, that would be my choice.


That's where this is headed I believe. I just wanted to take things one step at a time so to document  what worked and what didn't. So far most of the stuff that I have tried during the last couple pages of discussion has helped, to some degree anyways


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## STIHLY DAN

Builderml said:


> OK let me give you the specs of what I have going on.
> 2800sqft total living space,
> Tundra ducted to about 2000 sq ft, remaining 800 sqft is still being heated but no ducts to those rooms, really aren't any cold spots in the house with the doors left open to those rooms,
> 2x4 walls with 1" air seal done with closed cell spray foam, r13 batts over spray foam, yes insulation is compressed some, blown in attic insulation about 18-20 inches worth,
> Ceiling heights are 10' minimum, 650 sq ft at 14' high, 150 sq ft at 12' , large windows and doors so alot of glass area as well. I am sure most of my heat is at the ceiling. When I get on the ladder and change a bulb you can really tell where the heat is. Right now its 30* outside 70* in the house and I just came down stairs, blower just turned off so you know I am down to just a few coals.
> I wouldn't say my house is super insulated but Tundra is doing to job, I don't see how at 2500 sqft with 8'/9' ceilings and OK insulation the tundra wouldn't do it. To give you another example the past two years I used 1500gallons of oil each year. During the cold months it was exaclty 300 gallons on month. So you know now why I am trying wood.



With what you say you have for insulation, your oil usage is/was ridicules. You have something going on there.


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## Builderml

STIHLY DAN said:


> With what you say you have for insulation, your oil usage is/was ridicules. You have something going on there.


Your correct it is ridiculous, the problem is my own fault really. When I built the house I made the bright choice of putting the air handler in the attic. I wanted no Ductwork in the basement. Planned on finishing it. I also ran all metal round Ductwork wrapped with fiberglass I think r6 or r8. So now not only am I trying to heat the house but I also have to heat that Ductwork before any heat even gets into the house. On a 10 degree day you can only imagine how much heat I am wasting just figthing the unconditioned space. At the end of last year I said something has to change which is why I am doing wood now. I had a few options, burn wood, install another air handler in the basement along with all new ductwork, or remove existing insulation from ductwork and have the Ductwork all sprayfoamed. So I selected the wood route for now. If I had to guess I think 30-40% of the oil usuage was just the fact that the Ductwork is in unconditioned space.


----------



## Builderml

Brenn I think your going to find this interesting, so last night at about 8pm I load the firebox full of nice maple rounds everything from 1"-6" round, I went back upstairs thinking that should last the night with plenty of coals left in the morning, WRONG. At 12am I wake up and say heck its cold the tundra was cycling on and off already. I came downstairs and see a nice huge pile of coals but crap for heat coming off. I have never had this many coals before. I would say 3"-4" deep on the bottom. Keep in mind I haven't burnt a load of hardwood to date. The temp dropped down to 68* and its mid 20's outside. I said what the ****. I Also said hardwood my ass. So I loaded it back up with pine on top of the coal bed, its now 7 am so 7 hours later I am at the same point after I was with a full load of hardwood 4 hours later. It's almost like the coals don't want to burn or give heat. Again. I have never had this many coals with the softwood. While a nice bed of coals is great but these aren't coal burning stoves  no air is coming in from the bottom which makes a 4" bed of coals useless. It has me thinking that I am able to get more heat out of the tundra with softwood, while hardwood may be able to give long lasting coal beds if I can't burn the coals to extract the heat what good are they. After all we need to get the flames/ heat into the heat exchanger not in the firebox. This should be interesting to play around with. Brenn have you tried burning a full load of nice seasoned softwood? Very little coals at the end of the burn. Telling me I am burning everything and getting the btu's from it. I am sure many will not agree but I can only tell you what I am seeing. Hope this helps some Brenn.


----------



## Builderml

Also just another little note on a 4" bed of coals only the top 1" is red and rest are black rendering those cold and useless, also the 4" bed doesn't allow me to put in as much wood in the next fill up.


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## maple1

I went through that exact thing with my old boiler. Had to shovel out hot coals most mornings to get more fuel in - liquid cooled firebox that the fire was resting on didn't help that, and no grates or under fire or through bed air. There is definitely no one size fits all in this wood burning thing - way too many variables in appliances, heat loads, fuel types, on & on. Now with my new boiler, I have a downdraft through the coal bed and that's the end of those problems - total different animals. Coal beds might heat for some people & appliances & situations, but certainly not all.


----------



## Builderml

maple1 said:


> I went through that exact thing with my old boiler. Had to shovel out hot coals most mornings to get more fuel in - liquid cooled firebox that the fire was resting on didn't help that, and no grates or under fire or through bed air. There is definitely no one size fits all in this wood burning thing - way too many variables in appliances, heat loads, fuel types, on & on. Now with my new boiler, I have a downdraft through the coal bed and that's the end of those problems - total different animals. Coal beds might heat for some people & appliances & situations, but certainly not all.


Very well said. No air to fuel = no heat from fuel


----------



## KARB2014

Builderml said:


> Very well said. No air to fuel = no heat from fuel


Well what I did last year during the polar vortex I made a grate out of 3/8 304. I will say it helped eliminate the coal bed problem. I removed it at end of last year and haven't used it yet. If you have a large heat load you will develop a large coal bed with hardwood. I tried the grate and it helped a lot. The reason I haven't put it back in yet is because I wanted to see if it was my wood. So far I would have to say that it is not my wood it just the nature of the epa box's.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn have you tried burning a full load of nice seasoned softwood?


 I think you may be on to something here @Builderml .
No I haven't tried all softwood. A piece or two here and there, but that is it...very interesting indeed. I have been burning some Ash and Cherry, a lil Elm too. All the rest of my stuff is _even more_ BTU packed so...
I do remember reading of these guys (Tundra owners) have problems with coal buildup during the really cold parts of the winter last year. It is a EPA firebox issue, the stove guys have it too when they push 'em hard.
One feature of my temperature controller is the ability to have it open the damper when the flue temp drops too far, @3fordasho  has been using his to reduce coal buildup. I haven't used that feature yet because I thought it would reduce "burn time". I haven't had a coal buildup problem yet, but, it has been warmer out and I haven't been loading fresh wood onto a big pile of coals...heat output is defiantly much better with flames rolling in the firebox. I can really only raise the temp in the house when I have flames...looks like I have more things to try now.
1. Use the low temp feature in the temp controller.
2. I had thought of removing the insulation blanket behind the firebrick in an attempt to get some of the heat from the coals to pass through the firebox walls to the air.
3. Insulate the cabinet. There is a ton of heat lost to the furnace room as I said before.
4. Install supply plenum.
5. Maybe try to fab up a grate like @KARB2014  did? The more I think about this...yeah, the ideas are rollin now!

If I recall correctly, this was the exact problem spidey had with his "stovace" in that thread(s) that I had mentioned earlier, this was over on AS a couple years back....coal buildup and no heat output!
Maybe this is why my Yukon was working so well for me as far as heat ouput (other than being cantankerous to get "dialed in" on each and every load) because I have both air under the fire and now a proper secondary burn system. (I modded the secondary air system)(the factory secondary burn system is better than nothing, but just barely)


----------



## brenndatomu

Hey @laynes69 , you say you can cruise along no problem on a load of coals, huh? I wonder if the Caddy has the same insulation blanket behind the firebrick that the Tundra has. I can't seem to find a parts diagram online for a Caddy.

It is gonna be warm here the rest of this week (I just saw the forecast for Christmas day...almost 70!!) so I will be letting the Tundra go cold and fire the lil stove upstairs...give me a chance to tinker on Tundra...


----------



## brenndatomu

KARB2014 said:


> I made a grate out of 3/8 304.


Woooweee! I bet that weren't cheap! Tell us more about this...got pics? Did it affect having coals enough to bring to the front for the next fire? How big are your slots...or holes? I guess you had to lift it up to dig ashes out? How often?


----------



## laynes69

Yeah, we have the insulation blanket under the floor and walls of the furnace. Average register temps in the dead of winter average 90-100 degrees, more than enough to keep the house warm. I'm sure the difference also is the 11.5" limit/control in the plenum for air temps, and the lack of a false roof. If you go the plenum route, I would try a limit/control and mount it like a Caddy. I will say however, the tighter the home, the less the problem is with a coalbed.


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## KARB2014

brenndatomu said:


> Woooweee! I bet that weren't cheap! Tell us more about this...got pics? Did it affect having coals enough to bring to the front for the next fire? How big are your slots...or holes? I guess you had to lift it up to dig ashes out? How often?


I will give all the specs tomorrow when I get to work, I have everthing in a model. It was free I have a bunch of 3/8 sheet that was never used from a job I just lasered it off the clock. The biggest reason I hope I don't have to go back to it is because it was a pain to have to Lift it to empty the ash. I had a pretty good system down. I would use the poker Drolet supplied to wedge it up and scoop the ash out. It eliminated the coaling issues. I got the idea after reading about W.S. issues. The 2nd problem was if you let it go to long it was a royal pain to relight. The remaining small coals would fall through. But it did give me more usable heat through out the burn cycle. With the grate you could see small blue flames coming up through a bright red coal bed with the damper closed. To be honest I can really see me having to put it back in once the temps decide to drop and stay there. This weekend was the first cold spell we had and I already had a massive amount of coals. Without the grate I have to leave the door cracked and damper open to reduce the pile. I was tempted to cut a 5 or 6 in slot the bottom from front to back. Then I was going to fab the ash tray to accept fire rop to make sure it would seal. I decided to give it one more chance. Also going back and reading the other stuff I posted I must emphasize I did have issues last winter. Coaling being the biggest.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I loud the firebox full as i can get it and let the load get nice and hot, usually i'll let it bounce off the high limit a couple times





Builderml said:


> I load firebox full and just let her go wide open, She bounces off the high limit most of the time for the first hour.


So how loud does it get? 
Good thing you have the firebrick in the front, bouncing off the high limit switch regularly sounds like a recipe for crack(s) if you know what I'm saying


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## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> bouncing off the high limit switch regularly sounds like a recipe for crack(s)



I agree.  Mine is cracked.  And it's never even hit the factory high-limit that I'm aware of.  I'm still modifying it to stay as far away from high temps as I can while still getting good secondaries and a clean burn.


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## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I'm still modifying it to stay as far away from high temps as I can while still getting good secondaries and a clean burn.


Something new in the works at the DoubleB ranch?


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## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Something new in the works at the DoubleB ranch?



Haaa, yea well at first I thought I could just replace the high-limit with a lower temp snap disc, but that didn't work as well as I hoped.  Snap disc was either too low and the fire would smolder a few cycles before secondaries took off well, or else was too high for what I wanted.  Wasn't much middle ground, and the plenum just doesn't react very quickly to overfiring or smoldering.

Now my plan is to add a snap disc on the flue.  Using the IR thermometer it looks like the flue reacts quickly to fire conditions and I can also get a snap disc in the range where, if I leave the damper wide open, it will cut out the damper if it gets hotter than I want, but keep things hot enough that I don't smolder if the wood isn't charred enough for damper fully closed.  

My goal is to make it fool-proof so even if the manual switch, tstat, or bathroom timer opens the damper too long, that the temp control keeps it above secondaries only and below over-firing.  I still find that amount of remaining coals, size and species of wood, quantity of wood, remaining furnace temp, etc. are too many variables to know how long to set the bathroom timer for when I reload.  I want to set it for a long time (30+ minutes) and walk away without worrying about overheating things.

Now I just need to get the snap disc for the flue, and find time to do it.  I intend to write things up here once I get something I'm happy with.


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## Builderml

I think I found the solution for now. Last night I lined the bottom with pine. Put the maple on top much much less coals this morning. It's 10 hours later and the temp is at 68. I made only 4 hours the night before. Granted it was much colder out too. I'll try this for awhile before I fab up some grates. I have plenty of pine. It took almost 20 hours to burn down the coals after which point I said enough of this and shoveled the rest out.


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## Builderml

I am going to try loading the pine on the bottom east/ west with maple north/south on top to see how that does. Only problem is most of my stuff is cut to long for that. I hope it will act as a btu producing grate. I hate to reduce the firebox size with grates.


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## KARB2014

Here is a drawing of the grate. It just doesn't show the legs I welded onto it. I made them 3/4 tall. I was trying not to lose much firebox volume, I did not remove the fire brick on the bottom. I may design another one and put a little more thought into the spacing and slot shape and size. This one was just an experiment. I will say I was surprised by how much the current one bowed. I would have to say it bowed up in the middle by about an 1".


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## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> On a day like today (mid 30s) I don't know if the Tundra is even capable of bringing the house temp up 3-5* with a stuffed to the gills load...maybe 3, not 5, no way


I was having the same problems with my Caddy when temp were below 15 or 20F. Turned the fan speed up and that seems to have helped. Have you thought about turning your fan speed up ?


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## maple1

Slight derail: one of the other forums I'm on has a section 'stuff by ____ members'. (Let's say). People can post up stuff they have made themselves to improve their 'things', and they put a price on them & sell them to other forum members. There might be some liability worries given what this forum deals with (playing with fire, often inside your house), but it would be pretty neat if something like that could be done in this place. On topic example - I would really like to have a simple, long lasting SS grate for my unit, and something simple like that could fit a wide range of units & applications. Making something like that would be a peice of cake for some just with stuff they have laying around and tools they have at hand - I'm no metal working guy.


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## KARB2014

maple1 said:


> Slight derail: one of the other forums I'm on has a section 'stuff by ____ members'. (Let's say). People can post up stuff they have made themselves to improve their 'things', and they put a price on them & sell them to other forum members. There might be some liability worries given what this forum deals with (playing with fire, often inside your house), but it would be pretty neat if something like that could be done in this place. On topic example - I would really like to have a simple, long lasting SS grate for my unit, and something simple like that could fit a wide range of units & applications. Making something like that would be a peice of cake for some just with stuff they have laying around and tools they have at hand - I'm no metal working guy.


I don't have an issue with lasering anything out. If you have an idea I can draw it up and laser it. It's cheap if I have the material on hand. I make chainsaw bucking spikes for Nate at Performance Outdoor Equipment. Between the two of use we designed the dogs for the Dolmar 6100. So if you have an idea don't be afraid to shoot me a PM.


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## maple1

Just checked out your PDF. Something like that would almost work for me, as-is. No legs needed. I would need it a couple inches narrower though, to fit it thru my firedoor - would have to measure to be sure & have a fire going right now.

I think you said that's 3/8" thick? How does that hold up?

Right now, I'm using up a set of old cooking grids off my Broil King BBQ. I put new ones in the BBQ in the spring. They're cast, and seem to last about as good as the regular off-the-shelf fireplace grates I was getting. Which isn't that great, overall. I cut one grid in half, and I have chewed through over half of that half in a couple months of not steady burning. There's a lot of heat in the bottom of my coal bed - with that gasification chamber right below it. A real test of high-temp metal durability.


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## lexybird

brenndatomu said:


> On a day like today (mid 30s) I don't know if the Tundra is even capable of bringing the house temp up 3-5* with a stuffed to the gills load...maybe 3, not 5, no way


I'm surprised being I heated 2,000 sq ft with the same unit in that last frigid winter we had , yeah when it's near zero you gotta feed it a lot but we never froze that's for sure . Must be something with the ducting layout


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## brenndatomu

lexybird said:


> I'm surprised being I heated 2,000 sq ft with the same unit in that last frigid winter we had , yeah when it's near zero you gotta feed it a lot but we never froze that's for sure . Must be something with the ducting layout


Well, it could be, but I kinda doubt it. Most of the duct is insulated outside of the furnace room, and the furnace room is the warmest one in the house by far so it's not getting cooled there. The duct is pretty good size, not humongous though, the house had a coal furnace originally, and the Yukon works fine with it.
The real issue, in my mind anyways, is the low temps coming off the furnace. You can set the fan temp switch up, but the temp drops right back down within a couple minutes once the fan starts, pretty much the same spot as it always runs. 100*-110* at the most, unless the damper door is open. This temp is taken in the 8" duct ~2' above the furnace. Once the good hot part of the secondary burn is done, duct temp is under 100*, and dropping. That's not tons of heat when its real cold out, it does OK when its warmer out, like here lately.
I'll get this worked out...just ain't there yet


----------



## Craig9702

I'm new to the Tundra and just trying to figure out how hot I can get the firebox before I NEED to shut the damper.  Or can you safely just leave the damper open ( if needed ) without worrying about over heating the firebox? I currently have a magnetic thermometer on the heat exchanger door and get it to 350-400 Fahrenheit before shutting the damper.  Seems to heat good for a while but also seems to cool off after about 2-3 hours and doesent give me as much heat as I would like


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## brenndatomu

Hi Craig, welcome to hearth!
If you are leaving the damper open for extended periods of time your "burn time" will be pretty short as you have found. There is a ton of heat going right up the chimney. Use of the damper is pretty much meant to bring the firebox up to "heating" temp, then close down. Damper closed is by far the most efficient way to run as long as the firebox is staying hot. "EPA" fireboxes, like the Tundra can run as hot, or hotter, when in cruise mode (damper shut) as long as you are burning good dry wood.
I'm not sure about the temps you are seeing from the HE door, sounds kinda high to me but I'll let one of the guys that actually use this method to monitor temps chime in here. I would say you are running 'er pretty hard but the high limit switch should close the damper down if the factory "uh oh" temp is reached, assuming it is working. Have you ever seen the damper close down on it own, like the high limit switch did its job?
Do you have a manometer on your chimney? I would expect with the amount of heat that is going up the chimney with the damper open, the draft is pretty high, which draws more heat up the chimney, which makes the draft higher...on and on. Not good!
Also, sounds like it is not hooked up to a tstat?
Maybe the best thing would be for you to detail your system for us (pics are good ) Hows it ducted, what is your chimney specs, do you have a baro or key damper, what is your wood like (kind, how long CSS) etc, etc.


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## lexybird

I would not let that damper stay open long . Yeah it'll hit the high limit sensor and close but that's really hard on a furnace it's not a good practice and you could risk over firing the unit .


----------



## lexybird

brenndatomu said:


> Well, it could be, but I kinda doubt it. Most of the duct is insulated outside of the furnace room, and the furnace room is the warmest one in the house by far so it's not getting cooled there. The duct is pretty good size, not humongous though, the house had a coal furnace originally, and the Yukon works fine with it.
> The real issue, in my mind anyways, is the low temps coming off the furnace. You can set the fan temp switch up, but the temp drops right back down within a couple minutes once the fan starts, pretty much the same spot as it always runs. 100*-110* at the most, unless the damper door is open. This temp is taken in the 8" duct ~2' above the furnace. Once the good hot part of the secondary burn is done, duct temp is under 100*, and dropping. That's not tons of heat when its real cold out, it does OK when its warmer out, like here lately.
> I'll get this worked out...just ain't there yet




Do you think your sisters would do better based off her heat output estimation and do you think you have a high level of heat loss in the home . Dumb question -are you certain that baffle is pushed back all the way in the firebox ?


----------



## brenndatomu

lexybird said:


> Do you think your sisters would do better based off her heat output estimation and do you think you have a high level of heat loss in the home . Dumb question -are you certain that baffle is pushed back all the way in the firebox ?


Not a high heat loss place..I used to use ~7-750 gallons of oil per year, and that is with an old coal-converted-to-oil furnace, and before insulation and window upgrades. I would guess that my sisters place has a slightly higher heat load. It is a very long ranch style home. Our place is a 30x40(ish) capecod style and we are not even heating the upstairs right now.
Yes, the baffle is definitely in place. I have been over this thing down to the last detail inside and out, I have had almost every part in my hand at one point or another. Everything seems to be as Drolet intended...
I was at my sisters place yesterday, she wanted me to show her how to clean the HEs. I noticed that her HEs were a bit glazed looking anywhere that the blower can blow cool air directly on them. Mine has only a very light dry soot layer everywhere. I think my wood is dryer than theirs though, so this observation may mean nothing at all. 
I did install the same auto temp control on theirs (they love it) as I have on mine, so the two furnaces are being run the same way. The main difference is the plenum on theirs...


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## brenndatomu

lexybird said:


> do you think you have a high level of heat loss in the home .


And as another example (that I've made here before) in demonstrating how little it takes to heat this joint, in milder weather (30-35* and up) I can easily heat the ground floor with 1-3 loads per day in the lil 1.2 CF Defender stove (which I know you are familiar with) So far this year, I have run mainly only 1-2 loads per day in 'er, mostly due to wanting to play with the Tundra when it gets colder out. 
FYI, I started out this fall burning Poplar in the lil stove, then I moved to a mixture of Pine and Ash here lately, maybe a small piece of Oak here n there. Not stuffing the firebox either. It was ~40* here this morning, I threw in a 3/4 load of pine n silver maple...that took us up to 76* in the house, (was 69* when I woke up) and it is still 73* right now, still from just that one fire. I will wait until bed time for another 2/3 to 3/4 load of Ash and Pine in the stove...Tundra will hafta wait until at least next week for another fire in 'er belly


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## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> The main difference is the plenum on theirs...



Time to get off your holiday tookus and build yourself a plenum of your own!!


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## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Time to get off your holiday tookus and build yourself a plenum of your own!!



Nah, I ain't done with mah holiday treats yet! Besides, I haven't established a good baseline for running with 3 duct connections yet...this darn "winter", I have never started  so many new fires!
I may try a couple other things yet before I do the plenum...


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## lexybird

I hear ya it's a Hard year to heat with wood . Starting  a fire left and right  to deal with the temperature swings . One day it's 60 next day 35 . Cool nights warm days and then vise versa  -Up and down


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## Builderml

Brenn, you must have some thin blood. 76*?? I think at that temp this house would become a nudist colony.
Craig, as far as the temp on the H.E. door at 350-400* I personally don't think that's high at first during the burn stage. I am getting those temps on my single wall pipe about 2' above the T connection. I may be running mine a little hotter compared to others on here.


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## trx250r87

I average @ 250°-300° at the center of my heat exchanger door, just below the wingnut. This is measured with a magnetic gauge as well as cheap IR gun. Anything above 300° really starts to pour out the heat!


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> 76*?? I think at that temp this house would become a nudist colony.


Who said that we aren't? 
That's not a temp that I generally try to maintain...just a peak on that particular load in the stove. 73-74, 75 at the most is about as warm as things get normally. 72 is a good target temp for us.
I didn't reload the stove until bedtime that night, ~10# (yeah, I weighed it) for the overnight. Overnight low temps were 40 ish and that 10# of wood held the house temp to a low of 71* until the next load at 10 AM yesterday morning...


----------



## JRHAWK9

yeah, I'm getting tired of the constant cold starts myself.  We are around mid to low 30's during the day and 20's at night and with keeping a constant fire going for now 1.5 days; small reloads when just barely enough coals left to keep the fire going we are still sitting at 76° in here.  Too damn warm.  

My nephew and I are going ATV'ing up in N. WI/UP of Michigan (where they are forecasting 8-12" of fresh snow the night before we start our riding) the next few days, so the other half will be tending to the furnace.  Will be interesting to see how this turns out....lol


----------



## Dodgemrj08

Hey guys new to the site. Anyways I've had my tundra for 1 heating season thus far and reading this thread about cracks. Well I found a crack behind handle on the firebox where the plate was folded. I contacted sbi and they want me to get quotes from a mobile welder is this normal? My wife and I honestly don't trust the dam thing now after one season and it cracks I haven't even ran it that hard I have a pellet stove upstairs witch heats well. Not sure if I should tell them they are nuts because a welder will charge them anywhere from 500-1000 dollars to put a bandaid on this thing. If this has bein brought up already my apologies and help redirecting me to the correct thread would be great. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Builderml

Dodgemrj08 said:


> Hey guys new to the site. Anyways I've had my tundra for 1 heating season thus far and reading this thread about cracks. Well I found a crack behind handle on the firebox where the plate was folded. I contacted sbi and they want me to get quotes from a mobile welder is this normal? My wife and I honestly don't trust the dam thing now after one season and it cracks I haven't even ran it that hard I have a pellet stove upstairs witch heats well. Not sure if I should tell them they are nuts because a welder will charge them anywhere from 500-1000 dollars to put a bandaid on this thing. If this has bein brought up already my apologies and help redirecting me to the correct thread would be great. Thanks in advance.


I have heard of several units cracking but that was in the corners of the door cut out. I would really give it a once over to make sure that was the only spot that has cracked. If you do find a welder that is comfortable doing the job I wouldn't be worried about the repair. Most people that have had cracks I believe we're credited the full purchase price via store credit. If you do get it welded I would make sure the ends of the crack get drilled out prior to welding. What serial number unit do you have? Keep us posted with updates if you would please.


----------



## Dodgemrj08

Builderml said:


> I have heard of several units cracking but that was in the corners of the door cut out. I would really give it a once over to make sure that was the only spot that has cracked. If you do find a welder that is comfortable doing the job I wouldn't be worried about the repair. Most people that have had cracks I believe we're credited the full purchase price via store credit. If you do get it welded I would make sure the ends of the crack get drilled out prior to welding. What serial number unit do you have? Keep us posted with updates if you would please.


 My tundra model number is 1085. I also would like to say I'm not very happy with sbi service department at all I understand there just doing there job but when I'm doing there job by finding a welder for them to honor there warranty. No luck yet.  I've emailed and told them this and I get the feeling that eather I find a welder that they want to pay or my stove is not going to be fixed or refunded. I don't have time to search for them. I just want heat in my house that dosnt cost me 400$ a month for electric. You pay 1700$ for a stove and its useless right now. So I'll update when I get more info but I'm not very happy right now. Thanks


----------



## DoubleB

Dodgemrj08 said:


> quotes from a mobile welder is this normal?



Not yet that I've seen.  Of the cracked units I've seen on this forum and another one, SBI has usually refunded the purchase price (for in-store credit).  But I believe the warranty says that SBI can make things right at their discretion, which I reckon could also involve a mobile welder, so I think this is reasonable at least compare to the warranty.  

But Buildermi is right, give it a thorough inspection to make sure you don't have more cracks, which could change the story if you do find some.  I had trouble seeing mine until I really looked hard.  They were easier to see when the furnace was cold (they opened up more).

Do you have a picture of your crack by the handle?  That sounds like a new one.  All the refunded furnaces I think I saw on here had cracks on the corners of the loading door, if that matters any for the severity.


----------



## DoubleB

Oh, and welcome to Hearth, @Dodgemrj08 !


----------



## maple1

Also curious to see a picture. Wondering if it can be used to keep the cold off until you find a welder? I don't think the other cracks were enough to stop people from using them but could be wrong.


----------



## Dodgemrj08

DoubleB said:


> Not yet that I've seen.  Of the cracked units I've seen on this forum and another one, SBI has usually refunded the purchase price (for in-store credit).  But I believe the warranty says that SBI can make things right at their discretion, which I reckon could also involve a mobile welder, so I think this is reasonable at least compare to the warranty.
> 
> But Buildermi is right, give it a thorough inspection to make sure you don't have more cracks, which could change the story if you do find some.  I had trouble seeing mine until I really looked hard.  They were easier to see when the furnace was cold (they opened up more).
> 
> 
> maple1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also curious to see a picture. Wondering if it can be used to keep the cold off until you find a welder? I don't think the other cracks were enough to stop people from using them but could be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maple1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also curious to see a picture. Wondering if it can be used to keep the cold off until you find a welder? I don't think the other cracks were enough to stop people from using them but could be wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a picture of your crack by the handle?  That sounds like a new one.  All the refunded furnaces I think I saw on here had cracks on the corners of the loading door, if that matters any for the severity.
Click to expand...

 I will have to get a good flashlight and look closer tonight when I get home. But they sent me a list of 5 welders near me and told me to call them really? I'll have to wait till I get home to show picture.


----------



## Dodgemrj08

maple1 said:


> Also curious to see a picture. Wondering if it can be used to keep the cold off until you find a welder? I don't think the other cracks were enough to stop people from using them but could be wrong.


I could still use it and will this weekend but I don't want to run it unless I'm home for the time being. I'm a welder/machinist by trade but I would have to bring it to our shop to weld it. And I'm not certified for this type of thing. I have fixed cracks it steel before and it's touch and go its basically just a bandaid for things that get so hot then cold frequently like this. I know they want it welded then it voids my warranty if it cracks again says so in warranty paperwork.


----------



## Dodgemrj08

Pic of crack


----------



## DoubleB

I haven't seen that crack before, all the ones thus far have been on the corners of the loading door.

That looks a good 3-4 inches long?  Ouch.  I don't really see what would have caused the stress to crack it.  

I'm one of the folks who is still using their cracked furnace.  I put firebrick on the inside, I added another layer of temperature control to prevent excessive temperatures, and I figure I can keep an eye on it and either discontinue use or weld things if the cracks get worse.  I'm not a super risky guy, but I figure the cracks aren't going to cause the furnace to immediately disintegrate into a pile of burning rubble that sets my house ablaze.  I'd be tempted to say the same with yours.  I'd probably drill 1/8" to 1/4" holes at the ends; temporarily seal the holes/crack with furnace cement; request SBI to send you the firebrick upgrade; add overtemp protection, and see if that stops the crack over the next couple months of cold winter.  If so, then the stress is probably relieved by now and you could weld it shut if you want on their dime.  Yep, a whole lot more rigamarole than you should have to do, but it is what it is at this point.

But that's just me.  I'm sure someone will have some pretty good ideas.


----------



## brenndatomu

Can't make out from that pic what exactly (where) we are looking at.
I am also running a cracked firebox. I marked the end of the cracks before I added some "fire insurance" to the front firebox wall, cracks have not moved since. They are not as big as yours though...I wouldn't have an issue with running that after drilling/welding. Have SBI send you the firebrick kit for the front wall if they aren't already.


DoubleB said:


> temporarily seal the holes/crack with furnace cement


I tried that, it works great until you let the furnace go cold the first time...cracks right where the metal is cracked. Opens and closes with the temp just like the metal under it too. I'd be curious how high temp silicone would work out...


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I tried that, it works great until you let the furnace go cold the first time...



That's why I said "temporarily" seal it.    OK, maybe not.

Thanks for the report, I won't try it then.


----------



## Dodgemrj08

The crack is in the corner behind where the door seals and its about 2.5 in long yes. I'm not drilling any holes in my stove still on warranty. If off warranty I would weld it my self. The fact that they told me to call around and find them a welder to fix my stove is ridiculous. And I did call everyone on there list they gave me 2 don't mobile weld 3 won't do the work to far to drive for to little work. I emailed them this info. They told me this  
"
No replacement will be accepted.

Stop to found many reason for a replacement. On the list provided all the welders can repair your furnace.


Thank you"
Who the hell says that? I did what they asked... You can't force someone to do work they don't want to do.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah, that sound like a little different location for cracking than most.
Wow, talk about being less than accommodating...sounds completely different than how they were dealing with the cracks before...although I think I recall of at least one other person that was given the suggestion to weld


Dodgemrj08 said:


> "
> No replacement will be accepted.
> 
> Stop to found many reason for a replacement. On the list provided all the welders can repair your furnace.
> 
> 
> Thank you"


I think whoever wrote this email does not speak english as a first language...I'm not even sure what they are trying to say


----------



## TheBigIron

@Dodgemrj08 
Does your Tundra have the firebrick retro installed on the front side of the furnace?  I'm curious if they are selling them installed or available at Menards or wherever you purchased the furnace.


----------



## Builderml

OK now I am getting pissed. How the heck do you guys burn hardwood in this thing? I got lazy before the little snow we had and didn't fill up on my softwood. So I ended up burning maple for the past 3 days, mixture of splits and rounds. The coal build up in this thing is a joke and on top of that the heat output went down. Brenn if you have only been burning hardwood I can see why your having problems getting the heat output you would like to have. I hate to say it but I think the Tundra may prefer softwood over hardwood. Here's an example, so I burned pretty much just pine/spruce for the first 1 1/2- 2 months had no issues with heat output or coal build up. In that time I filled up a 5 gallon bucket of just ashes. Here I am tonight able to fill up the same bucket with just coals 3 days later. After all I do need to make room for some wood in the firebox. I need to make a grate for this thing to see how that works. I had planned on just burning the softwood while it wasn't really cold out and kept my hardwood for when the temps dropped but looks like I need to rethink that whole idea. Will keep you posted on how I make out with a grate setup once I finally make one.


----------



## TheBigIron

Bullderml,
I was wondering how dry your maple is?  I am burning red elm in my stove and result is fine ash, however when I added some 2 year seasoned maple in my stove I am having the same problem as you.  Large coal chunks.  Not saying it's related but could the maple you are using not be as dry as needed for the Tundra??  

Dave


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn if you have only been burning hardwood I can see why your having problems getting the heat output you would like to have.


That's about all I have other than a little pine that is cut short for my lil stove. But other people manage to use these things with hardwood, so I'll continue my quest for heat from the darn thing.
Coal buildup is a complaint that the EPA stove guys have whenever it get good n cold, darned insulated fireboxes anyways, hot coals do not equate to heat in the house for sure! They say to throw a piece of dry softwood on the coals and then open the intake damper, it will give you heat output and burn the coals down too.


----------



## trx250r87

I have been burning mostly red oak, soft maple, and Elm. I don't burn 24/7 but so far this year I only have accumulated about an ice cream pail of ashes. I actually prefer some ash buildup and try to leave an inch or two in the stove.

When I burn red oak it seems like I get more consistent heat, but it requires a little more air. I can often run with damper open the whole time.


----------



## Dodgemrj08

The46Zone said:


> @Dodgemrj08
> Does your Tundra have the firebrick retro installed on the front side of the furnace?  I'm curious if they are selling them installed or available at Menards or wherever you purchased the furnace.


I bought my stove at Menard's last fall in September. I did receive the new fire update about 2 weeks ago when I initially emailed sbi about any updates witch at first said no. Then next day I got an email about the firebrick update they thought I should have. Then I seen crack. Now here we are 2 weeks later...kicker is I went to Menard's last year to buy the shelter sf2631 but they had just started carrying the drolet and I saw the glass the 40% less wood sticker and 100$ cheaper than the shelter and I was sold.


----------



## laynes69

Are you removing the ash so air can penetrate the coals? Also, are you loading full loads of maple? From an overnight burn, you should have nothing but ash in front and coals in back.


----------



## TheBigIron

I haven't fired mine up yet, I am still digging out my crawlspace.  I have purchased some of the flue temperature monitoring devices that were suggested by others on this forum.  I'm curious as to how it will do with the firebrick retro installed in mine.  Just curious hopefully next year I will have my crawlspace dug out and new basement finished.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Are you removing the ash so air can penetrations the coals?


Yup, ya gotta keep the boost air nozzle clear for sure. I tried it without...real PITA to get the fire going!


laynes69 said:


> From an overnight burn, you should have nothing but ash in front and coals in back.


Exactly, I get that even with Hickory.


----------



## Builderml

I'll re-split a piece of maple I have in the morning and put the moisture meter to it. It was split this spring and stacked on the edge of my pile. You may be very well correct that my stuff may not be ready but moisture meter will confirm that. The rounds I have are at least 1 1/2 years old. I would think your 2 year seasoned maple should be good to go and your saying you have the same issue. I think it's a matter of no air hitting the bottom. It seems to me that the Tundra likes to burn from the top down and if your wood doesn't get burned fast enough it gets covered and no air gets to the bottom to finish it off. All I know is I have shoveled out a nice amount of btu's in just coal.


----------



## TheBigIron

I am getting like 17%-18% on my moisture meter from that maple, but that red elm is 14% and does much better for me in my stove.


----------



## trx250r87

Builderml said:


> I'll re-split a piece of maple I have in the morning and put the moisture meter to it. It was split this spring and stacked on the edge of my pile. You may be very well correct that my stuff may not be ready but moisture meter will confirm that. The rounds I have are at least 1 1/2 years old. I would think your 2 year seasoned maple should be good to go and your saying you have the same issue. I think it's a matter of no air hitting the bottom. It seems to me that the Tundra likes to burn from the top down and if your wood doesn't get burned fast enough it gets covered and no air gets to the bottom to finish it off. All I know is I have shoveled out a nice amount of btu's in just coal.


Why shovel the coals out? I take them to the front and open the damper, sometimes even crack the door handle. There usually is plenty of heat to keep the fan running.

I often do this as soon as the secondary burn flames nolonger are seen at the top of the firebox. Rake forward, burn down the coals, then reload on top of remaining hot coals.


----------



## Builderml

laynes69 said:


> Are you removing the ash so air can penetrate the coals? Also, are you loading full loads of maple? From an overnight burn, you should have nothing but ash in front and coals in back.


Yes I try to shovel ash out each time I load when i can. Part of the problem is I still have coals in the front not burnt down to ashes yet. Yes full loads of maple the past few days. I was out of my softwood. It's wasn't as bad when I put the pine down on the bottom and placed maple ontop. I was happy I scored some hickory for next year and now a little worried if I am having an issue with the maple.


----------



## DoubleB

@Dodgemrj08 ,

I agree their email response to you is pretty cryptic, and someone already mentioned things might get lost in translation to English.  Also, SBI is not known for providing good explanations of things.  However, they have been known to stand behind their products, so this is disappointing for sure.



Dodgemrj08 said:


> I bought my stove at Menard's last fall in September.



Another things you could try is to complain to Menards.  Menards might be a big box store, but around here the local manager is pretty good and willing to help, and oh, he also speaks English.  They are a much larger SBI customer than you are, and maybe a call from some Menards guys could get SBI to respond a bit better to you.  Might be worth a shot.


----------



## brenndatomu

I haven't burned that much Maple, but I did have some nice dry Silver Maple last year, thought I would burn it in the fall as "shoulder season" wood, HA! Thought I was gonna melt the stove down...and had good coals too! Total surprise! One the other hand...the infamous Ash that everybody gushes about...not impressed, I mean it's Ok, but not impressive IMO.

An interesting bit of info to pass on as far as my quest for heat. I was screwing around with things the other night and decided to cover ~50% of the secondary air intake holes. It made for some nice blue (and hot!) secondary flames, duct temps went way up, so I left it...the next morning the house was warmer than what has been the norm when running the Tundra (by at least 2 degrees) Same results that day...and the next. Relatively the same temps outside as what we have been having...I don't get it. My draft is -.04 to -.05" WC most of the time (sometimes -.06) so not too high. Not sure why this lil mod has made such a difference, but it has.
I know @laynes69  did something similar, but that was because of high draft...I dunno, I don't understand it, but I ain't complaining! Warmer house on less wood  that's what these things are 'sposed to be all about right!? 
I'm not gonna jump to any conclusions just yet, least not until I can get these same results when it is actually cold out, but it is a big step in the right direction.


----------



## Byron21

brenndatomu said:


> That's about all I have other than a little pine that is cut short for my lil stove. But other people manage to use these things with hardwood, so I'll continue my quest for heat from the darn thing.
> Coal buildup is a complaint that the EPA stove guys have whenever it get good n cold, darned insulated fireboxes anyways, hot coals do not equate to heat in the house for sure! They say to throw a piece of dry softwood on the coals and then open the intake damper, it will give you heat output and burn the coals down too.



Hi Brenn new to this site but you may remember me from the Arbo site last year ,I installed a heatmax.one of the biggest problems for me was the coaling 1 getting enough heat out of them to get the blower going and 2 burning the damn things down so I could reload ....

I had a three cycle day; fill in the morning about 8am afternoon 3pm then around midnight....I had a mix of wood maple ,birch and red oak it could have been a little dryer but I don't remember the numbers now. Down to 20 degrees the furnace would do ok but below that coals were a big problem. I tried all the tricks to get them burnt down between loads .

The midnight load was the one I would spend the most time on to get them burnt down so I could get in a full load for the night ...I would spend a couple hours in the evening going up and down the stairs racking the coals and pulling them forward.. I'd leave the loading door cracked open, add a piece of softwood and so on, It was a real pain.. Meanwhile the house would cool down to say to 68 and I like it at least 72 in here. What I would do is turn the oil furnace up between loads get the house back up while I built and fired the heatmax up and it would pretty much hold the place for 8 hours .

I could go on and on about all the problems I had with that stove. messing with the snap switches and trying different locations and such but I won't.. I messed with that thing most of the winter, then everybody started seeing cracks sure enough mine had them. That was it for me I got a refund and took it out I like the technology how it burnt and all it just didn't keep us warm here..  I put in a firechief 700 and I'm happy and warm this year ...

You and I discussed putting a plenum on at one point last year but I had had enough when I saw the cracks...It could be the answer but what about the coaling I gave up and moved on.....you have heard this before from the WS "the hard part is putting the wood up the easy part should be burning it" sorry for the long winded post good to see ya again and good luck   .... byron


----------



## Byron21

brenndatomu said:


> I haven't burned that much Maple, but I did have some nice dry Silver Maple last year, thought I would burn it in the fall as "shoulder season" wood, HA! Thought I was gonna melt the stove down...and had good coals too! Total surprise! One the other hand...the infamous Ash that everybody gushes about...not impressed, I mean it's Ok, but not impressive IMO.
> 
> An interesting bit of info to pass on as far as my quest for heat. I was screwing around with things the other night and decided to cover ~50% of the secondary air intake holes. It made for some nice blue (and hot!) secondary flames, duct temps went way up, so I left it...the next morning the house was warmer than what has been the norm when running the Tundra (by at least 2 degrees) Same results that day...and the next. Relatively the same temps outside as what we have been having...I don't get it. My draft is -.04 to -.05" WC most of the time (sometimes -.06) so not too high. Not sure why this lil mod has made such a difference, but it has.
> I know @laynes69  did something similar, but that was because of high draft...I dunno, I don't understand it, but I ain't complaining! Warmer house on less wood  that's what these things are 'sposed to be all about right!?
> I'm not gonna jump to any conclusions just yet, least not until I can get these same results when it is actually cold out, but it is a big step in the right direction.


 I meant to mention that I done the same covered the secondary inlets with a little piece of sheet metal about 1/2 I got longer secondary burns and quicker starts  ...Ran it that way the last month I used it .....


----------



## Dodgemrj08

So after going over the pictures from earlier in the post about exact locations I should look for cracks I do have 2 additional cracks around the heat exchanger. Both bottom corners left and right about 1/4 in long. Thanks for the advice to look it over again. Hopefully this additional evidence will help them remedy this issue.


----------



## Byron21

Dodgemrj08 said:


> So after going over the pictures from earlier in the post about exact locations I should look for cracks I do have 2 additional cracks around the heat exchanger. Both bottom corners left and right about 1/4 in long. Thanks for the advice to look it over again. Hopefully this additional evidence will help them remedy this issue.


not to butt in here or scare anybody.... one of my concerns was if this thing is cracking where I can see it what about where I can't ...


----------



## Dodgemrj08

Byron21 said:


> not to butt in here or scare anybody.... one of my concerns was if this thing is cracking where I can see it what about where I can't ...


I've wondered the same exact thing. I work with steel everyday and have had cracks from bad material inside of 6000 pound blocks that you couldn't see till we had machined the outside away. Anything could happen.


----------



## Byron21

Dodgemrj08 said:


> So after going over the pictures from earlier in the post about exact locations I should look for cracks I do have 2 additional cracks around the heat exchanger. Both bottom corners left and right about 1/4 in long. Thanks for the advice to look it over again. Hopefully this additional evidence will help them remedy this issue.


not to butt in here or scare anybody.... one of my concerns was if this thing is cracking where I can see it what about where I can't ...


Dodgemrj08 said:


> I've wondered the same exact thing. I work with steel everyday and have had cracks from bad material inside of 6000 pound blocks that you couldn't see till we had machined the outside away. Anything could happen.


 you would probably want to pull the top off and have a look at the welds around the HE tubes at the back of the furnace quite a bit of welding there....At least that's what I was going to do had they not refunded me.....good luck


----------



## Dodgemrj08

Byron21 said:


> not to butt in here or scare anybody.... one of my concerns was if this thing is cracking where I can see it what about where I can't ...
> you would probably want to pull the top off and have a look at the welds around the HE tubes at the back of the furnace quite a bit of welding there....At least that's what I was going to do had they not refunded me.....good luck


Bryon21 where were your cracks and did they give you the run around like they are me? How long ago was this?


----------



## Byron21

Dodgemrj08 said:


> Bryon21 where were your cracks and did they give you the run around like they are me? How long ago was this?


 Mine were around the loading door at the corners .....My opinion is that that door flange should have been a welded on angle iron....instead they bent the flanges up from the door opening waste and welded the corners seems to me that weakens the metal bending it like that ....They were very good with me, asked for pictures of the cracks and my setup and got right back to me with the judgment ...They called the store where I got it with the ok for credit . I had to take the tags off the furnace and take them to the store ... The store offered my money or in store credit back

ps this was last spring


----------



## Builderml

Dodge, when you say the bottom of the heat exchanger are you talking about the outside of the unit? I have no welds on the outside of mine aside from some tack welds along the bottom. Take some pictures please. Thank you.


----------



## Dodgemrj08

Here's the picture sorry poor quality I'm haveing problems with pictures being to large to post. It's on face plate corner of heat exchanger.


----------



## brenndatomu

Byron21 said:


> not to butt in here or scare anybody.... one of my concerns was if this thing is cracking where I can see it what about where I can't ...





Dodgemrj08 said:


> I've wondered the same exact thing.


Not that it necessarily means anything for anybody else, but mine has cracks on the corners of the loading doors and I had the same thought...are there cracks under the bodywork? I have stripped it down to examine things pretty closely and found no cracks anywhere else.


Dodgemrj08 said:


> Here's the picture sorry poor quality I'm haveing problems with pictures being to large to post


I always have to edit the pics down to about 50% size to post here. I use the "paint" program that came with my windows 7 laptop.
I was curious about the guys that switched from Tundras to "smoke dragon" furnaces...like @Byron21  and @Wisneaky , I'm sure you are warm, but have you been burning long enough to get a feel for wood usage or chimney cleanliness comparatively?
I'm coming into this from the other side of things...having had "smoke dragon" furnaces...


----------



## Highbeam

Gotta say, I'm less inclined to buy a Drolet furnace (heatmax or heatpro) after seeing the problems and poor customer service from the manufacturer.


----------



## Byron21

brenndatomu said:


> Not that it necessarily means anything for anybody else, but mine has cracks on the corners of the loading doors and I had the same thought...are there cracks under the bodywork? I have stripped it down to examine things pretty closely and found no cracks anywhere else.
> 
> I always have to edit the pics down to about 50% size to post here. I use the "paint" program that came with my windows 7 laptop.
> I was curious about the guys that switched from Tundras to "smoke dragon" furnaces...like @Byron21  and @Wisneaky , I'm sure you are warm, but have you been burning long enough to get a feel for wood usage or chimney cleanliness comparatively?
> I'm coming into this from the other side of things...having had "smoke dragon" furnaces...



well I went from a home built wood furnace "smoker" that had a HE tube to the heatmax and now back to a smoker that has a baffle in the top....No question the heatmax burned cleaner and I really liked that...As far as wood usage I used around 4 to 5 cords of fire wood with the home built...Last years with the heatmax I would say it was about the same but it was a long and cold season here ... The firechief  I've burned probably a 1 1/2 cord " its been really mild here so far this year".
I can tell if I'm pushing for heat she will go through some wood fast but it brings the house up quick...Last night It was to hot in here so I'm still learning how to use it some ...

Heat output both smokers out produce and out performed the heatmax when talking about keeping this house and me warm "no question in my mind there" none.....Clean burn, no comparison the heatmax wins hands down.... I really wish it had worked out.. I'd add that I looked at the Caddy line when looking for a replacement of the heatmax ... Because of all the problems I had with the heatmax and the damn coaling I couldn't pull the trigger I needed the next install to work.... Honestly speaking if this house was totally up to snuff.. new windows, doors and more insulation in the attic the heatmax probably would of worked . Now over time I will fix those things but in the mean time we need to be warm here....

my house is a 30x40 Ranch with a daylight basement


----------



## TheBigIron

I am curious about maybe having someone weld the 1 that I have before using it?  Or does anyone know that maybe the firebrick retro being installed will possibly prevent the furnace from cracking in the first place?  I was also wondering about that grate that was mentioned in previous posts to prevent the coaling issue, could a guy take a grate from a coal shaker and fit it to size?


----------



## brenndatomu

The46Zone said:


> I am curious about maybe having someone weld the 1 that I have before using it?  Or does anyone know that maybe the firebrick retro being installed will possibly prevent the furnace from cracking in the first place?  I was also wondering about that grate that was mentioned in previous posts to prevent the coaling issue, could a guy take a grate from a coal shaker and fit it to size?


Welding it before it cracks? I wouldn't, you never know where it will crack exactly...plus welding can cause other stresses too
Firebrick retro is meant to prevent cracking...we will see if it actually helps. I'm saying it will. The cracks on mine have not spread since installing the insulation and SS plate in the front (kinda the same thing that SBI did with the retro kit, only they used firebrick)


----------



## DoubleB

+1.  I wouldn't weld it preemptively either.  You wouldn't want to void the warranty.  Which treated us pretty well even though DodgeMrJ is having less luck with it.  I'd put my efforts in the firebrick mod and overtemp protection.


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## TheBigIron

Thanks for that info, I'll get back to digging my crawlspace so I can install


----------



## Builderml

The46Zone said:


> Thanks for that info, I'll get back to digging my crawlspace so I can install


What serial number do you have?
I will keep you guys posted if mines does end up cracking but from what I can tell so far so good, and I think most guys on here would agree that I am running mine on the hard side.


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## 3fordasho

My two units in the 134x serial number range have no signs of cracking.  Both now have the firebrick retro kit from SBI.  Some earlier units have primary air openings that are larger than later units, SBI has a restrictor plate for those units, not sure when the change was made but mine have the restricted intake openings.  For the fellow with cracks and unit in the 10xx range I would check the openings under the air flap- early units had 3 rectangular openings all the same size, later units have smaller outer openings and the center looks to be unchanged.  

My first installed unit is doing a better job in my 3400 square foot house,  house temps usually maintained 68-71f no problem, even in temps down to 0f.   I attribute this to better air sealing of certain doors and windows I did over the summer.  Now when the wind picks up I expect more issues and may need fire up the progress hybrid but really have not needed to yet.

I do not have a coal build up issue unless I'm home all day and loading the furnace more than the 3 - 8hr cycles that I typically run during the work week.   I believe my temp control add on helps reduce coal build up by opening the air flap once flue temps drop a certain point-  I still have enough coals for restarts.


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## STIHLY DAN

I wonder if they gave to many units away for free under warranty that they need to stop the bleeding somehow. So repairing might be the new approach.


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## TheBigIron

Builderml said:


> What serial number do you have?
> I will keep you guys posted if mines does end up cracking but from what I can tell so far so good, and I think most guys on here would agree that I am running mine on the hard side.


my serial number is 1431....


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## Builderml

An update on the coal build up, problem solved for me anyways. I am back to my softwood and now only putting one or two nice splits of maple ontop of the pine no more issues with the coals. After loading at 8pm last night I came down this morning at 5am with just enough coals in the back to start it back up, no kindling needed.Maybe this stove doesn't require the use of hardwood as many other stoves do. Looks like this is the way I will be running the Tundra from here on out.
An update on the front firebrick retrofit that SBI provides, these are soft firebricks. My left side one I don't believe will last the whole winter. It is taking a pretty good beating from loading the wood. I do try to be careful but every time I look at it its worse and worse. So for those of you that install new ones I advise you to fab up a guard to protect it. Happy New Year !!


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> I honestly believe the lack of cracking on the Caddy is due to the false front, and the open plenum


A little field trip today, I went to the local Caddy dealer to ogle their floor model Caddy so as to compare the exact differences between it and the Tundra. And I gotta agree with Laynes69, the front of the firebox is inside the envelope of the furnace "bodywork", so it is not subject to nearly the same temp fluctuations (and shock) as with the Tundras "open" setup.
And I have been saying for a while now...there is a _ton_ of heat lost to the basement from the front of the Tundra, not so on Caddy, being enclosed, it just adds to the overall heat output into the supply plenum.
Otherwise, as far as the firebox and whatnot, they are VERY similar, if not identical.
Interestingly enough, I noticed in the Caddy brochure that it is only rated to heat up to 1700 sq ft...and I have zero doubt that a Tundra _would not_ keep up with a Caddy...so they have _WAY_ overrated Tundra at 2500!
I have the skills and tools to modify my Tundra body to be just like a Caddy, but it would be a fair amount of work and since installing my pre-owned Tundra was basically just an experiment to begin with, I probably wont mess with it.
I will however, continue to do some of the mods that I have talked about doing in the past, just to see how much more heat output this thing is capable of, and still be safe, reliable, and user friendly of course.


----------



## laynes69

The fireboxes are identical, but the Caddy has the insulated cabinet, c-cast baffle, and a few other upgrades. I'm not sure where they came up with the numbers for the Tundra. I can't find it now, but PSG used to say not to include the basement and factor the square footage for the first floor and half of the second. I think they are more reserved on their numbers for the Caddy to keep customers happy.

Yesterday it was cold and windy...24 outside with a chill of 13. Our 2500 sqft home plus 1200 sqft basement was 74 degrees. The blower would run for 10 minutes or so and be off for 20 minutes. This is what was left before reloading. I de-ashed the coalbed, raked about a gallon and a half of coals out and loaded 3 pieces criss-crossed at around 6pm and reloaded around 9:30. The house was 75 at that point. One of the major differences is I can feel heat 6 feet away from my registers with the plenum. Having 10' ceilings, I need that air to mix so the heat doesn't stay at the ceiling. The first year I owned the furnace, it wouldn't heat above 68 at 28 degrees and the coalbed would just accumulate. Now with a more efficient home, you can see the difference in the picture.


----------



## brenndatomu

Another strange observation...our local dealers list price for a base Max Caddy is $100 _less_ than a base Caddy! Now, once you add in the cost of the blowers and controls the Max is ~$500 more...but still, that made no sense to me!  Seems to me, if your are looking at Caddys, it would be a no brainer to go Max unless you have a smaller (less than 1500 ft, or _really_ well insulated) house


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## laynes69

The Max Caddy requires a blower, you can't run series due to the computer controled temperature sensor. The Caddy however, can be ran in series from either side with the central furnace. Looking at the website, there's a ton of options and add-ons. They really can be made to install just about anywhere.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> I can't find it now, but PSG used to say not to include the basement and factor the square footage for the first floor and half of the second.


Yeah, it is in the brochure that I picked up. 0% for the basement footage, 100% main floor, and 50% for the second floor...ahh, I see what they are doing. So in their convoluted example, an actual 3000 sq ft home (1k x 3) they are calling that 1500 ft and saying the Caddy would qualify...dang it man, those Canadians must be using that "new" math for a while now already!


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## laynes69

Did you by chance see if there was a false top to the firebox on the Caddy?


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> The Max Caddy requires a blower,


Then why do they offer them without? What struck me as odd was the fact that base unit to base unit, the Max was cheaper, and it is physically much bigger. 
Actually, I remember firebug saying that the amish run them with no controls (just a "non-advertised" bi-mettallic spring to run the damper door) and just run gravity heat


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Did you by chance see if there was a false top to the firebox on the Caddy?


Dang it, I forgot to look! The sales dude would have probably thrown me out if I dismantled his furnace though...I can see it now "It's OK, I'm with Hearth.com, and I'm a "professional"


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## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> Then why do they offer them without?


Not sure...maybe they have the option of a simple limit/control for a series install? You would have to have the multi speed blower and computer to run things as advertised.


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## sloeffle

When I was looking at furnaces about 5 years ago the Max Caddy was 2k ( $5500 if I remember right ) higher than the Caddy. That was before they "modularized" everything on both furnaces. I also looked at an Energy King 385 but couldn't find any reviews or a lot of info about it.

Our Caddy has no problem heating our 2200 sq ft house down to negative temps. Like @laynes69 said, a lot of it has to do with how well your house is insulated.

We only burn hardwood in our Caddy and I do get some pretty big coals. I have gotten into the habit of pulling those forward when I reload the furnace and that seems to take care of most of them. If I run to furnace for an extended amount of time and start getting a lot of coal build up I will just open the damper all of the way and burn all of the coals up.

Does the Tundra come with a grate that is covered with a plate ? The Caddy does and the plate one of the first things I removed.

Edit: changed it to plate


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## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Yesterday it was cold and windy...24 outside with a chill of 13. Our 2500 sqft home plus 1200 sqft basement was 74 degrees


We're only about 25 miles apart so same weather, and as I have stated before I'm only really trying to heat 1200 sq ft ground floor, and I think the high in the house yesterday was 72*. That was with (3) 2/3 full loads. The frustrating thing is, like I mentioned before, my (mostly) unfinished basement is warmer than the ground floor due to just the heat lost off the front of the furnace! 


sloeffle said:


> Does the Tundra come with a grate that is covered with a plate ?


No. They have a ~3" round hole with a cast iron plug in it that you have to pull out to chase the ashes down the lil hole...PITA. I (and I would say _most_ people) don't use it. Easier to just dig out when needed. I would have gladly given up the whole ash drawer deal in exchange for the air jacket wrapping the front of the furnace like the Caddy has.


----------



## Byron21

brenndatomu said:


> We're only about 25 miles apart so same weather, and as I have stated before I'm only really trying to heat 1200 sq ft ground floor, and I think the high in the house yesterday was 72*. That was with (3) 2/3 full loads. The frustrating thing is, like I mentioned before, my (mostly) unfinished basement is warmer than the ground floor due to just the heat lost off the front of the furnace!
> 
> No. They have a ~3" round hole with a cast iron plug in it that you have to pull out to chase the ashes down the lil hole...PITA. I (and I would say _most_ people) don't use it. Easier to just dig out when needed. I would have gladly given up the whole ash drawer deal in exchange for the air jacket wrapping the front of the furnace like the Caddy has.


I found it very hard to get my place above 72 without the help of the oil furnace the heatmax would hold elevated temps for some time once I got the house where I wanted it ...There is a lot of heat off the front of these stoves. Even when mine was down to coals and using the provided poker "which is quite long" you wanted a glove on raking them around.. yet very little blower action
Not sure if your second story floor system is insulated ? they are usually not and you would be losing quite a bit of heat to conduction there.. just a throught...


----------



## lexybird

The max caddy at my local dealer was I think 2499 without blower and electronics ( Amish buy them this way remove side panels and install a simple 35$ bimetallic Chained damper in place of the servo electronic unit for incoming air flap ) The blower and electronics  with PC board runs over 800 extra . I got all that on mine and I think my max caddy was around like 3600 plus tax if I remember right . I just fall in love with this thing every time I add wood to it  . So much more heat and the long burn times ( got like 14 or so hours today and it was windy and never got over 28) make running this in the dead of a winter a real nice experience . Quality quality unit. Best money I think I ever spent. I was quoted 800 for the big electric insert backup that slides in and I forget what the psg domestic hot water kit costs . Honestly though I'll probably never get either but it's cool to have a furnace with all these options


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## brenndatomu

lexybird said:


> The max caddy at my local dealer was I think 2499 without blower and electronics


The local dealer here (just the closest one to me, I just wanted to see a Caddy in person) has the base Caddy at $3449...$3349 for the Max base furnace... another $1375 for the blower/controls package.


Byron21 said:


> Not sure if your second story floor system is insulated ? they are usually not and you would be losing quite a bit of heat to conduction there.. just a throught...


It is, but I have a new Seek IR thermal camera coming (Merry Christsmas to me! ) so we will see what-is-what with the ole insulation here soon


Byron21 said:


> There is a lot of heat off the front of these stoves


Yes there is!


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## brenndatomu

I have said this here several times before...the reason that I think that my furnace is not working to it's potential is that the firebox can be just screaming hot with coals and the duct temp is just kinda warm. The highest duct temp that I ever see (with the blower running) during the peak of the burn, is about where the Yukons blower kicks _off_ at! I can turn the fan switch on/off temp up, but that just makes the overall heat output drop...but I'm a stubborn son-of-a-gun,  so I will keep beating this dead (and cold) horse until it makes some heat daggum it! 
Like I always say at work..."I dunno why these things always wanna fight me...I always win in the end"


----------



## Byron21

wonder if its gravidity feeding away from the stove to quickly and then kind of dissipating in the duct work ... just another thought ....kind of brings me back to the plenum using a Honeywell fan and limit switch....anyhow I'm hoping you figure it out good luck


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## brenndatomu

Byron21 said:


> wonder if its gravidity feeding away from the stove to quickly and then kind of dissipating in the duct work ... just another thought ....kind of brings me back to the plenum using a Honeywell fan and limit switch....anyhow I'm hoping you figure it out good luck


Thanks B, I'll keep at it.
I've been talking to a guy on another forum...he said on his Tundra that you can hardly touch the duct pipes above the furnace for the first couple hours of a load! I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOO jealous right now!


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## Builderml

Layne's, have you tried loading softwood on the bottom and placing the hardwood on top? As long as I do this I have great heat out put and no coal build up at the end of the burn cycle.


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## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Thanks B, I'll keep at it.
> I've been talking to a guy on another forum...he said on his Tundra that you can hardly touch the duct pipes above the furnace for the first couple hours of a load! I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOO jealous right now!


Brenn, I too can not keep my hands on the Ductwork above the stove, left side more so. The right duct I can not keep my hand on the left/back side of it but the right/front I can keep my hand on it longer.


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## Builderml

Well the true test for the Tundra will be tomorrow into Tuesday. They are calling for temps around 3 with wind chill well below 0. I wouldn't call this normal temps around here but it will be time for the Tundra to chit or get off the pot. I will definitely post what she is able to do. If nothing else I'll be nice and toasty 6' in front sitting in my recliner.


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## laynes69

Builderml said:


> Layne's, have you tried loading softwood on the bottom and placing the hardwood on top? As long as I do this I have great heat out put and no coal build up at the end of the burn cycle.


No, I burn only hardwood for the most part. Of I have any softer wood, I burn it in the shoulder season. When I burn oak, locust, etc., I don't have any problems with a coal bed. The coalbed stage gives me plenty of heat. When I wake up in the morning if there's been a strong demand for heat, there's ash in the front of the firebox and white hot coals in the rear.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn, I too can not keep my hands on the Ductwork above the stove, left side more so. The right duct I can not keep my hand on the left/back side of it but the right/front I can keep my hand on it longer.


I can grab any of my ducts at any time no problem. The front one gets the warmest by 10* or so


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## lexybird

brenndatomu said:


> The local dealer here (just the closest one to me, I just wanted to see a Caddy in person) has the base Caddy at $3449...$3349 for the Max base furnace... another $1375 for the blower/controls package.
> 
> 
> Yes there is!



Wow that dealer is looking at a 2,000$ profit on that deal . I'd avoid that shop like the plague


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## laynes69

Does anyone else have a false top on their tundras? You guys should post a short video once they go into cruise mode to compare fires.


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## Builderml

laynes69 said:


> No, I burn only hardwood for the most part. Of I have any softer wood, I burn it in the shoulder season. When I burn oak, locust, etc., I don't have any problems with a coal bed. The coalbed stage gives me plenty of heat. When I wake up in the morning if there's been a strong demand for heat, there's ash in the front of the firebox and white hot coals in the rear.


Didn't you say you shoveled out about 1 1/2 gallons of coals? Or did you mean ash? If coals that's a lot of coals to be taking out.


----------



## brenndatomu

lexybird said:


> Wow that dealer is looking at a 2,000$ profit on that deal . I'd avoid that shop like the plague


I have spent very little money there over the years...they are very well known to be high priced. Even with that price, they said delivery was extra!


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## laynes69

Builderml said:


> Didn't you say you shoveled out about 1 1/2 gallons of coals? Or did you mean ash? If coals that's a lot of coals to be taking out.


No, I de-ashed the firebox and spread the coals over the floor for a reload.


----------



## Builderml

Just tried loading a short video about 4 secs. and it said file to large.


----------



## Builderml

laynes69 said:


> Does anyone else have a false top on their tundras? You guys should post a short video once they go into cruise mode to compare fires.


Yes i do have a false top but it looks to be in direct contact with the top itself, I don't think that it would impact heat transfer much unless it had a nice space between the two.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Yes i do have a false top but it looks to be in direct contact with the top itself, I don't think that it would impact heat transfer much unless it had a nice space between the two.


My gut tells me that all Caddys and Tundras have the flame shield on the top of the firebox. Like builder said, it is kinda "spot" welded right against the top
I missed my opportunity to verify this on a new Caddy yesterday...


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## Builderml

Here is a picture of the video. This is back side of burn no strong flames, no more nice secondary burn going on. Mostly logs are about to brake up in larger coal chunks. The second picture of the top ( see red dot in middle ) is to show where i took the temp reading. Its 130*-135*.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Here is a picture of the video. This is back side of burn no strong flames, no more nice secondary burn going on. Mostly logs are about to brake up in larger coal chunks. The second picture of the top ( see red dot in middle ) is to show where i took the temp reading. Its 130*-135*.
> View attachment 170828
> View attachment 170829


I'm not quite as far along in the burn as you and I can only get 110* at the most reading in that same spot. Now I can get 130-140* reading around the front of the front duct connector, which is why I have that duct wide open and the back two throttled to .2 SP. Even with the top reading 130-140 around the connector, I still only have 110* internal duct air temps. If I throttle the front duct to .2, internal air temp goes up a bit, but CFM to the house drops and overall heat output drops. 
Right now I am leaning toward making a whole new top for the furnace to put a plenum onto. I will bias the opening toward the front of the furnace since that is where the higher temps are.


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## Builderml

This morning I took readings around the two duct collars, the left side I was getting 170* around the right side I was 150+ and the front block off plate that you are now using I was at 200*.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> This morning I took readings around the two duct collars, the left side I was getting 170* around the right side I was 150+ and the front block off plate that you are now using I was at 200*.


This was damper closed on "cruise"? The only way I'd ever see (and probably not even then) would be a fresh load, damper open and flue temps soaring, basically running WOT


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## laynes69

Using the factory openings on the Tundra per spec, the 2-8" outlets are about 100 square inches. The Caddy however has a plenum opening of approximately 24" x 29" with almost 700 square inches. Factor in a take off of 8x20 or greater and a much higher volume of heat can be removed from the firebox. I think the false ceiling has to do with the potential hot spots from the lack of flow. If a thin layer of soot can slow the transfer of heat, a thin piece of steel can do it too. You can see in brenns pic of the firebox top, the extra piece up top is white, while the exposed top was darker. I doubt the Caddy had the false top.


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## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> This was damper closed on "cruise"? The only way I'd ever see (and probably not even then) would be a fresh load, damper open and flue temps soaring, basically running WOT


The damper was closed at that point with real heavy secondary burns going on. I just don't know how long the damper had been closed to be honest my wife was the one that loaded it. That also was not a full load if wood. 
Also Brenn, I notice I get the best heat out of the Tundra when my stack temp is at about 200* located about 30" above the T. That is surface temp via magnetic stove pipe thermometer.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Using the factory openings on the Tundra per spec, the 2-8" outlets are about 100 square inches. The Caddy however has a plenum opening of approximately 24" x 29" with almost 700 square inches. Factor in a take off of 8x20 or greater and a much higher volume of heat can be removed from the firebox


I was originally gonna just plop a plenum on 'er and open the existing holes up. But now I have been debating if I want to go with a 24 x 24 hole, or a triangle shaped hole. The base of the triangle would be at the front of the furnace and the top (or tip) of the triangle would be toward the back in the center. My thinking is that would expose the most surface area in the place where the most heat seems to be. Also it would prevent airflow from the blower from short circuiting, never getting to the front, or not passing over the top of the firebox itself. The more I think about the triangle, the more I like it. That would give me 288" of area open, VS 151 that I am running right now


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## laynes69

Those 2 exchanger tubes will be at their hottest at the rear of the firebox. Where they combine up front, they will start to lose heat. I know the placement of the limit control is critical, due to the different paths of air thru the top of the furnace. A nice large plenum will allow for the mixing before it exits. The limit/control is located at the rear of the firebox where the heat exchanger attaches to the firebox.


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## sloeffle

Builderml said:


> Just tried loading a short video about 4 secs. and it said file to large.


It is best to upload the video to YouTube and then post a link here.


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## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Those 2 exchanger tubes will be at their hottest at the rear of the firebox. Where they combine up front, they will start to lose heat.


I hear ya, thats what I was thinkin too, but the hottest places on the top are at the front by far


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## lexybird

I like laynes  idea of a bigger area and a large plenum  for " mixing" to even things out and prevent the hotspots your getting . I would rather have good hot air ..then weaker air temps with high pressure


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## Builderml

OK guys I need help. Finally getting around to checking static pressure. So I have my piece of brake line bent at a 90deg angle , now do I point the tip down into the airstream so that the air blows into the tube? Or do I point the tip up so that the air passing acts as suction pulling? Or do I just place the tip so it is just inside the duct surface flush with the duct wall? I can tell you I don't have .2 static pressure any way I do it. Maybe why this thing is heating so well.lol


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## maple1

Think you want it stuck in so the air stream is crossing over the tip. Not blowing in or away.


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## Builderml

Sorry for the long post but i figured this might help some people. Pretty cut and dry.

Static Pressure Testing, Step By Step
It typically should take less than five minutes to measure a system’s static pressure. Here are sample instructions for a furnace and a remote coil:

STEP 1: Locate the appropriate places to drill the test holes on the supply side (+) between the furnace and the coil, and on the return side (-) between the filter and the furnace. Center the holes for neat appearance. Stay away from any coils, cap tubes, condensate pans, or circuit boards to avoid damage. Always look before you drill.

STEP 2: Drill test holes using a 3/8-in. drill bit with a metal piercing tip. A bullet tip drill makes a clean round hole. Make sure to use your drill bit sheath (Described above) to prevent from drilling into the coil. If there’s duct liner inside, be sure to penetrate it to assure a good reading.

STEP 3: Push one end of the tubing onto the static pressure tip. Place the other end of the hose on the HIGH (+) pressure port of the gauge. If required, make sure the gauge is level and zero the gauge by adjusting the screw on the face with the small screwdriver. (Digital gauges each zero differently, so check owner’s manual.)

STEP 4: Read the supply or positive (+) static pressure by inserting the static pressure tip in the test hole into the air stream with the tip facing into the airflow. The magnet on the tip will hold it in place while the value is read and recorded. This measurement is the pressure the fan is "seeing" on the supply side of the system.

STEP 5: Read the return or negative (-) static pressure by moving the tube from the HIGH to the LOW-pressure port on the gauge. Insert the static pressure tip in the test hole on the return side with the tip facing the airflow. Read and record the negative static pressure. Don’t forget to insert hole plugs in the test holes when you’re done testing.

STEP 6: Calculate the system’s Total External Static Pressure by adding the two values. Since the negative and positive signs identify the type of pressure measured, you can ignore them when adding the two values together.

For example:
The supply static pressure reading is (+) .26 w.c.
The return static pressure reading is (-) .21” w.c.
The total system static pressure is .47” w.c.

.26” + .21” = .47” w.c.


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## Builderml

Here is what i came up with. SBI really only cares what the static pressure is for the furnace only. So with that in mind i drilled 1 hole in each 8" duct about 4" up from the furnace, (see picture the larger hex head was my test spot) i took my test tip "( brake line bent 90*) and pointed it down towards the furnace. Which from the reading above they call it "supply static pressure" i come up with .25-.27 for both ducts. I did bump up my fan speed to #3 just prior to testing. The whole time before today i was on factory setting #2. While the supply static pressure may be a little high i don't think that it will hurt the furnace, help run cooler if anything. Let me know if you think i am wrong. But with testing this way it tells me what the air that is moving across the furnace is which is what i think SBI really cares about. All the other testing will tell you static pressure in ductwork, which i don't think sbi cares about, also pressures that the fan is seeing.



Edit- well after doing some more searching looks like I need to get an a-303 static pressure tip, doesn't look like my redneck brakeline is the way to go. Once I get the tip I should be able to get accurate readings


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## Highbeam

Builderml said:


> While the supply static pressure may be a little high i don't think that it will hurt the furnace, help run cooler if anything. Let me know if you think i am wrong.



Seems to me that higher pressure means that less air is moving. For instance, if you plug up the ducts your pressure will build high. A low duct pressure reading means that the fan is able to move more air and more air means more cooling of the furnace which means more heat to your home.


----------



## Builderml

I will say that bumping up the fan speed the furnace seems to cycle more now that I am in the coal stage of the burn. Might make it harder for me to bounce off the high limit.


----------



## Builderml

Highbeam said:


> Seems to me that higher pressure means that less air is moving. For instance, if you plug up the ducts your pressure will build high. A low duct pressure reading means that the fan is able to move more air and more air means more cooling of the furnace which means more heat to your home.


Not so sure about that, I am noticing that it is cycling more during coal stage telling me that it is cooling the furnace off faster. I should have taken a reading prior to bumping up fan speed, maybe I will in the near future. The cooling off may just be due to the 200 cfm increase and not so much the static pressure change if I did in fact change the static pressure.


----------



## Highbeam

Builderml said:


> Not so sure about that, I am noticing that it is cycling more during coal stage telling me that it is cooling the furnace off faster. I should have taken a reading prior to bumping up fan speed, maybe I will in the near future. The cooling off may just be due to the 200 cfm increase and not so much the static pressure change if I did in fact change the static pressure.



Yes, you're talking about two things. Low static vs. high static and then low speed blower vs. a high speed blower.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Think you want it stuck in so the air stream is crossing over the tip. Not blowing in or away.


That is my understanding too. Tip of the sample tube 90* to the airflow (or duct) , could be wrong though?


Builderml said:


> i took my test tip "( brake line bent 90*) and pointed it down towards the furnace.


? So it was facing down, into the airflow? Doesn't sound right to me. You will have higher (false) pressure readings doing this I believe.


Builderml said:


> For example:
> The supply static pressure reading is (+) .26 w.c.
> The return static pressure reading is (-) .21” w.c.
> The total system static pressure is .47” w.c.
> 
> .26” + .21” = .47” w.c.


So are we supposed to be setting the Total SP, or just the supply SP? Did you just drill a hole in the blower box to take the Return SP reading?
If SBI is calling for total SP, then we should be shooting for +.1 SSPR and -.1 RSPR? If that is the case then I have my SSP too high (.2). Haven't checked the RSP...
And the return static pressure would change according to how dirty your filter is at the moment, so do you set it based on a clean filter...a little dirty...a lot dirty?


----------



## DoubleB

I don't remember if it was this thread or another, but when this static pressure thing has come up before, it seems that the 0.2" is just for the supply side only.  A few reasons this appears to be the case:

-The manual only talks about supply static pressure, and makes no mention of differential between supply and return. The manual suggests the reason for 0.2" SP is even air distribution amongst the hot air registers.  This seems to be somewhat of a rule of thumb for a lot of HVAC equipment, but someone more qualified than I can comment on that.

-My unit came with a pleated filter.  On a fan speed of 1 (low), I had -0.07" pressure in my return plenum, 0.37" pressure drop through the filter, and 0.07" static pressure in my supply plenum.  I didn't even bother cranking up the fan speed for that purpose.  If the pressure drop through the OEM filter is 5x my supply plenum SP, then the purpose of 0.2" SP has little to do with limiting the amount of pressure drop the blower has to overcome.

-I think the blower is rated for far more than 0.2" SP, again suggesting the manual guidance is more about even air distribution through the supply registers.  

All that said I'd much prefer a spec for the total pressure drop against the blower, since that is what determines how much air the blower is pushing to cool the furnace.


----------



## Builderml

I think you guys are correct about the fact I shouldn't be pointing the brake line tip down into the air flow but that's the only way I could get up to .2 static pressure. Will allow me to sleep better at night.
Joking aside you think sbi could clearly state what static pressure they are talking about after all these are marketed to diy's.
Once I get the actual static pressure tip for my manometer at that point I'll worry about it until then its getting down close to zero tonight so I'll have fun feeding the tundra to see if she can handle it.


----------



## Builderml

Brenn, I did not take a reading on the return side. I only worked in the supply side.
I agree with DoubleB I think they are referring to the supply side static pressure but I guess we really don't know.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn, I did not take a reading on the return side. I only worked in the supply side.
> I agree with DoubleB I think they are referring to the supply side static pressure but I guess we really don't know.


Well, you got my wheels turning anyways...I checked the static pressure on my blower cabinet...it was -.3" so I slide a new filter in, it dropped SP to -.15". Surprised me because the filter doesn't look that dirty


----------



## DoubleB

I'm less interested in supply static pressure, and more interested in total airflow.  But it's hard to compare our systems since our ductwork layouts are so different.  A suitable comparison might be blower power.

Who has a kill-a-watt or similar?  How many Watts and/or amps are you pulling (damper closed)?  And what fan speed are you on?

When I was on fan speed 1, I drew about 200 Watts.
When I am on fan speed 2, I draw about 220 Watts.  

+/- 5 Watts for filter condition, voltage variation, etc.

I seem to get adequate airflow.  My air discharge temps are about 115-125F cruising with the damper closed, depending upon the point in the burn cycle.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> When I was on fan speed 1, I drew about 200 Watts.
> When I am on fan speed 2, I draw about 220 Watts.
> 
> +/- 5 Watts for filter condition, voltage variation, etc.


Yeah, I was gonna say...depends if you voltage is 110 or 125...


DoubleB said:


> My air discharge temps are about 115-125F cruising with the damper closed, depending upon the point in the burn cycle.


Discharge temps at the register? Impressive...I'd roast outta here if I could pull those temps off


----------



## DoubleB

Voltage hovers around 120-121V.

Nonetheless, if someone has only 110V but draws the same amount of power, they're still pushing about the same amount of air.

115-125F at the top of the plenum, where the blower snap disc is located.  Registers are, of course, a bit less.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Static pressure is more for the ability to push the air out of all registers as needed. That's why you don't take a run off your main at the end of the main, you need a static leg. static pressure is a lot like tires, 285/65/16 these are not height and width but a formula combination. Sp is important, but so is CFM. You could be moving1600 cfm at .3 sp or 1600 cfm at .2 sp the difference is velocity. So in short, the ductwork needs to be big enough to carry the cfm's but small enough for the correct sp. I oversized my ductwork for gravity heat in power outage or fan failure, then dampered each takeoff for heat need in each rm. The longest take off to the 2nd fl had to have the damper removed and still is a little low unless I am on high fan. But then I am removing more heat from my unit than I want. (more cfm) If air moves to fast past the HE it can pic up the heat, if to much air passes through it pics up to much heat but is not hot. Does this make sense to you?


----------



## brenndatomu

Alrighty...changed the air filter...RSP -.15", down from -.30". 
Rechecked the SSPs...
Both side ducts at .17 to .18"
Front duct at .10" (on purpose...it runs the hottest by far)
Running watts at ~210.
I can easily run the SPs up higher, but then as stihlydan said, not enough air flow to distribute well. This seems to be a good balance so far. Blower runs quite a while after loading, doesn't start cycling on/off too early, duct temps aren't _too_ low (not as high as I'd like though)
Coldest day/night here since I have had this machine, so far I have been a little surprised...she's keeping the tstat more or less satisfied...doesn't seem like there is much in the "reserves" though,  but I am already a little surprised, sooo...we will see


----------



## lexybird

Seems The tundras get real Hungry once it drops in the teens


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Alrighty...changed the air filter...RSP -.15", down from -.30".
> Rechecked the SSPs...
> Both side ducts at .17 to .18"
> Front duct at .10" (on purpose...it runs the hottest by far)
> Running watts at ~210.
> I can easily run the SPs up higher, but then as stihlydan said, not enough air flow to distribute well. This seems to be a good balance so far. Blower runs quite a while after loading, doesn't start cycling on/off too early, duct temps aren't _too_ low (not as high as I'd like though)
> Coldest day/night here since I have had this machine, so far I have been a little surprised...she's keeping the tstat more or less satisfied...doesn't seem like there is much in the "reserves" though,  but I am already a little surprised, sooo...we will see


What are you getting with the tip pointed down into the air flow? While this may not be an accurate way of checking the actual s.p. we should be able to compare. I was at about .25 - .27. If I had to guess I think my s.p. is much lower compared to yours.


----------



## Builderml

With this being the coldest morning by far  (5* actual and -5 wind chill) looks like the Tundra can hold the house temp. I don't see myself being able to raise the temp much if at all. I just reloaded now with a full firebox and settled into cruise mode so I'll be watching over the next hour as to what she is able to do. I must say I am very pleased with this.


----------



## Builderml

Here's a few more temps I haven't listed b4, center of H.E. tube door is 327*, my single wall stack pipe 196*  2' up from my tee. measurements taken holding infered gun about 6" in front of surface. I never noticed before but the distance the gun is held away from the object impact's the reading a good amount. I am also about 30mins into cruise mode.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah, I gotta say, my thermo is saying 8* right now, weather guessers were saying a low of 10* and wind chill ~0 and the tstat says 71* in the house (I have it set for 72*. I loaded 'er up with Hickory n Oak last night at 11, so I am surprised, but she kinda did OK, at least for what I was expecting anyways. The damper was open and there was some screamin hot coals at the back still, I raked 'em forward and about melted my face off! Another load of Hickory and oak at 6:10 AM, so we will see how she does on a 10 hour load today. Supposed to be a high in the mid 20s...
I'm sure if not for the recent changes, things would not have been so rosy this morning...I'll detail the changes made here later today


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> measurements taken holding infered gun about 6" in front of surface. I never noticed before but the distance the gun is held away from the object impact's the reading a good amount


They usually say on the gun what distance they are optimized for...6" is pretty common. They like flat or satin black surfaces the best too...


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, I gotta say, my thermo is saying 8* right now, weather guessers were saying a low of 10* and wind chill ~0 and the tstat says 71* in the house (I have it set for 72*. I loaded 'er up with Hickory n Oak last night at 11, so I am surprised, but she kinda did OK, at least from what I was expecting anyways. The damper was open and there was so screamin hot coals at the back still, I raked 'em forward and about melted my face off! Another load of Hickory and oak at 6:10 AM, so we will see how she does on a 10 hour load today. Supposed to be a high in the mid 20s...
> I'm sure if not for the recent changes, things would not have been so rosy this morning...I'll detail the changes made here later today


Brenn sounds to me like you may be doing a half hearted happy dance.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Its later  Where are the flippen details???


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Its later  Where are the flippen details???


Platience young glasshawper, platience.  Jr. needed his baba...


brenndatomu said:


> Another load of Hickory and oak at 6:10 AM, so we will see how she does on a 10 hour load today. Supposed to be a high in the mid 20s...


Well, when I got home from work tstat said 71*, this was at 4:30, so almost 10.5 hrs, high of 25* out today. Not too bad I guess, still had good coals for an easy relight. Threw in some more Hickory and Oak...it took a while, but it is back up to 72* in here as of about 8:30-9:00. I really don't like that I can only raise the house temp 1, maybe 2* during the hottest part of the burn, seems like it should do more...
The recent changes were: adding the third duct, and then running it almost wide open
A new air filter (which lowered RSP)
And last but far from least, I lowered the temp controller to close the damper at 350* and reopen at 250*, which has been working out really well. 350 is plenty of temp to fire off the secondarys and the temp will usually hold around 300 for a couple hours. A couple hours more before flue temp drops to the point where the controller will let the tstat re-open the damper. So we are 4 hours in now. 2 or 3 hours more of heating with the tstat cycling the damper open/close (so the high point of the heating curve is past) So we are 6 or 7 hours in now and it is likely that the damper is just staying open all the time now, which gives ok heat (not great) from burning down the coals.
At this point I think I am pushing this thing about as hard as I can without just running damper open all the time...unless adding a plenum ends up making a big difference, I dunno...
Before somebody suggests that I am not running it hot enough...even when I had the temp controller set to shut down at 550*, once the damper closes the temp always wants to settle back down to that 3-350 range anyways, and fairly quickly, so...
This is even with -.07" draft last night, so not low draft, and my wood is SUPER dry 3 year CSS Oak and Hickory, so not wet wood...
Also (gettin past my bedtime here...) I installed a turbulator in the center HE tube. If you want to know what that is, search that term in the boiler room, there has been lots of talk about them. Basically it causes the flue gasses to be turbulent and have to contact the walls of the HE tube instead of the majority of the flue gas volume just blasting down the center of the tube without much contact time with the tube walls. It did seem to drop my flue temps some...
I'll get pics of this thing the next time I open the cleanout door. Nothing fancy...quicky homemade deal...some good ole redneck injoonearin...


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn sounds to me like you may be doing a half hearted happy dance.


Yeah, I suppose you could say that...a weak woo hoo and then movin on


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> Platience young glasshawper, platience.  Jr. needed his baba...
> I installed a turbulator in the center HE tube. If you want to know what that is, search that term in the boiler room, there has been lots of talk about them. Basically it causes the flue gasses to be turbulent and have to contact the walls of the HE tube instead of the majority of the flue gas volume just blasting down the center of the tube without much contact time with the tube walls. It did seem to drop my flue temps some...
> I'll get pics of this thing the next time I open the cleanout door. Nothing fancy...quicky homemade deal...some good ole redneck injoonearin...


This thread had me wondering if the Caddy or Tundra could benefit from having turbulators installed. Unfortunately I have all of the wrong tools ( I am a woodworking guy ) to fabricate something. I will be interested to see some of your redneck engineering.

Scott


----------



## Buzz Saw

sloeffle said:


> This thread had me wondering if the Caddy or Tundra could benefit from having turbulators installed. Unfortunately I have all of the wrong tools ( I am a woodworking guy ) to fabricate something. I will be interested to see some of your redneck engineering.
> 
> Scott


I've read of some guys using logs chains.  Do you have old or broken chain you could put in the HX as a test?


----------



## maple1

I think the chains are for vertical tubes, whereas these are horizontal. Maybe?

It is kind of odd, now that the thought is here, that I haven't seen turbs used before in a furnace. Seems if they are effective in boiler HX tubes in certain situations, they could be effective in furnace HX tubes. Huh...


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> Do you have old or broken chain you could put in the HX as a test?





maple1 said:


> I think the chains are for vertical tubes, whereas these are horizontal


Exactly


maple1 said:


> It is kind of odd, now that the thought is here, that I haven't seen turbs used before in a furnace. Seems if they are effective in boiler HX tubes in certain situations, they could be effective in furnace HX tubes. Huh...


Yeah, I had the same thought. I think they'd be a good addition in my Yukons HE, too. It has 4 large tubes...


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> Exactly
> 
> Yeah, I had the same thought. I think they'd be a good addition in my Yukons HE, too. It has 4 large tubes...





I'm going to have a fab guy we use make some up for me.  What do you think, just one for the larger center tube or some for the outer tubes as well?


----------



## KARB2014

@brenndatomu  are you still running with about 50% of your secondary air cut off? I have been trying this over the last 4 days and it really seems to have evened out the temp. I seem to get longer secondary burns.  It seems to have slowed the production of coals down as well. It's almost as if it is making the air go over the coals more.


----------



## laynes69

I'm running with my secondary cut by 2/3. It does make a difference, but I'm not running a baro anymore.


----------



## KARB2014

laynes69 said:


> I'm running with my secondary cut by 2/3. It does make a difference, but I'm not running a baro anymore.


Can you explain a little more? When you set your draft are covering the secondary inlets while the primary is wide open to get the proper draft. If I remember correctly you have a really tall chimney? Are you trying to cover both evenly?


----------



## laynes69

I ended up covering the two outer primary ports on the damper door about 1/2, and the secondary ports are covered about 2/3. Basically I adapted the furnace to the chimney (32'). I've ran it now like that over a month now with success. John Gulland recommended a long time ago to try it, and I wasn't brave enough to do it at a time. I finally pulled the trigger. The damper itself also it set to open only a percentage as before. One thing to remember, the draft only spikes when hot. Once the damper closes, the flue temps drop and the draft settles.


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> I'm going to have a fab guy we use make some up for me.  What do you think, just one for the larger center tube or some for the outer tubes as well?


I just did the center tube for now, mainly because it was quick and easy, I just wanted to see if it had any effect. Seems like it did so I may try to do the small tubes too. They will be a little trickier because only having half the opening available to install them. Also, since they are smaller it may be easier to block too much air flow...smoke out the door on reloads.
I was reading about the different types of turbs on this companys site, interesting http://fuelefficiencyllc.com/feturb.html


----------



## maple1

Might be a good idea to monitor both the temps of the supply pipes, close to furnace, and changes in flue draft, when trying turbs. They would both likely be affected - turbs would have the effect of (minimally) choking down the flow of exhaust gases, about the same way a key damper would.


----------



## Highbeam

Do you guys ever just consider these furnaces to be a big Magic Heat device?


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> Do you guys ever just consider these furnaces to be a big Magic Heat device?


Huh?
Yeah, I guess, kinda...throw wood in 'em, light it...heat! Dunno about magic...but a good heat(ing) device, yeah...better than heating with snowballs


----------



## brenndatomu

KARB2014 said:


> @brenndatomu are you still running with about 50% of your secondary air cut off?


Yup.
Here's some pics of my hillbilly turb...








Had 72* in the house after work today, 10+ hours since the AM load. The low last night was 12* and high today was mid 30s...I just now reloaded at 6:30 and the house was still 71*...that's 12+ hours on that load...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Sounds like you have it down pat. Also I think some of your issues may have been comparing it to the Yukon. Low and slow rather than hot and fast.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Sounds like you have it down pat. Also I think some of your issues may have been comparing it to the Yukon. Low and slow rather than hot and fast.


Low and slow is right! I'm sure that comparison was not helping my expectations any.
One thing that may play a part here is the size of the loads, the Tundra really starts to walk n talk when you load 'er up. With all the warm weather we had I was doing smaller loads. On the Yukon, the load size does impact heat output, but not to the extent of the Tundra.
I'm not done foolin with this thing yet, but if I could get it to raise the house temp more than 1, maybe two degrees during the peak of the burn, I guess I'd call this whole experiment a success. I really like how easy it is to run compared to my modded Yukon, especially with the temp controller


----------



## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> Huh?
> Yeah, I guess, kinda...throw wood in 'em, light it...heat! Dunno about magic...but a good heat(ing) device, yeah...better than heating with snowballs



There is a device called a "magic heat" that mounts in the flue of regular wood stoves. It has tubes and a blower to extract flue gas heat much like these furnaces. The woodstove folks hate them, call them bad names, and ridicule those who use them.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> There is a device called a "magic heat" that mounts in the flue of regular wood stoves. It has tubes and a blower to extract flue gas heat much like these furnaces. The woodstove folks hate them, call them bad names, and ridicule those who use them.


Ahh, now I gotcha. I had one of those things...creosote factory! But to be fair, I was pretty early on in my wood burning learning curve and I was burning pretty wet wood. I think they would actually work pretty good used with a smoke dragon that is on a dry wood diet...


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Well, when I got home from work tstat said 71*, this was at 4:30, so almost 10.5 hrs, high of 25* out today. Not too bad I guess, still had good coals for an easy relight. Threw in some more Hickory and Oak...it took a while, but it is back up to 72* in here as of about 8:30-9:00. I really don't like that I can only raise the house temp 1, maybe 2* during the hottest part of the burn, seems like it should do more...



Brenn, 
As a datapoint, you're starting to get about the same results that I am by now.  In this weather I raise the temp about 4F during a load, but that's just dumping it all on the 1000 sqft 1st floor and it takes a while for the heat to flow upstairs.  My loads last a couple hours shorter than yours did, but I'm mostly box elder (hey, it works for me).

Also, I like your turb.  I don't have much experience with them, but you got me to thinking that it might be just as easy to slide a 6" wide strip of appropriate sheet metal and take some time to twist it into a helix.  I gather that's the idea.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I like your turb. I don't have much experience with them, but you got me to thinking that it might be just as easy to slide a 6" wide strip of appropriate sheet metal and take some time to twist it into a helix. I gather that's the idea.


Yeah you got the basic idea.
Basically you want the flue gasses to have as much interaction with the HE walls as possible. If you look at the way air likes to flow through a tube, high velocity gasses will tend to kinda punch a hole in the center, leaving the furnace without really having much direct contact with the HE walls. And it is important to "turbulate" the air without blocking overall flow capacity of the tube much.
Doing a 6" wide helix would be tough to DIY IMO, unless you have some pretty good metal working skills/tools. I got the idea for the one I made from that website I linked to earlier today.
Read up on the threads here from a few weeks ago, the boiler guys were doing all kinds of turb comparisons...got my wheels a turnin...


----------



## Builderml

Brenn congrats on your success, now with the lower temps 4* this morning and 7* or so yesterday the tundra only held house temps. 67-68.No way was I able to raise them at that low a temp out. Getting about 3-4 hours on a load of softwood and a few maple pieces. Finally was able to start raising temps at about the 15*-20* mark outside. Only about 1 or 2 degrees. Looks like you have the keys to the F350 now. I may have to get some info from you about the temp controller in the future but for now I am good with what I can do.


----------



## laynes69

Brenn, break out the new camera when you get it, and you'll see better results when things improve. Even then, it sounds like things are doing well. Stuffing the firebox completely full, you'd be around 3.5 cuft ft. With splits not as long, and not completely full, your probably in the upper 2 to 3 cut ft. range. To keep a house warm for that long on that amount of wood is not bad, considering old school furnaces could use double or more.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Brenn, break out the new camera when you get it, and you'll see better results.


Just got it today...played for an hour or so. Didn't see anything that I didn't suspect already. Not real cold out though.


laynes69 said:


> To keep a house warm for that long on that amount of wood is not bad, considering old school furnaces could use double or more.


Like stihly said, I was comparing to the Yukon, and to make matters worse, a highly optimized Yukon, WAY miserly on wood compared to stock...now if I could only get it to be as user friendly as the Tundra, I'd really have something!


----------



## JRHAWK9

The one thing they definitely got right with this thing is the whole marketing it towards the do-it-your-selfers.  Maybe they should at least include instructions for all the fabricating and tweaking one needs to do in order for it to be useful.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I got the idea for the one I made from that website I linked to earlier today.


Spent some time on that site yesterday and watched their YouTube video. Pretty cool stuff. Wonder why you need the various different configurations ? My assumption is that one design extracts heat better in certain situations than others.

What are your thoughts on making it the whole length ( 4' as a guess ) of the whole middle flue pipe ?


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> What are your thoughts on making it the whole length ( 4' as a guess ) of the whole middle flue pipe ?


At 24"(ish) it is pretty much full length...could get a couple more inches I suppose


----------



## maple1

I like that hillbilly turb.

You could easily add or subtract pieces to it as needed to tune your draft & temps as needed.

Unless they're all welded in place. Are they all welded in place? If not you could just slide them on & off.

Ingenious.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> At 24"(ish) it is pretty much full length...could get a couple more inches I suppose


I forgot that the Tundra is set up a little different than the earlier Caddy's. My cold air return actually goes over the middle pipe on my furnace.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Are they all welded in place?


Yeah


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> The one thing they definitely got right with this thing is the whole marketing it towards the do-it-your-selfers.  Maybe they should at least include instructions for all the fabricating and tweaking one needs to do in order for it to be useful.


Well, I think "turn key" wood burners are boring...so there!


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I forgot that the Tundra is set up a little different than the earlier Caddy's. My cold air return actually goes over the middle pipe on my furnace.


Interesting, didn't know that. The new Caddys are now the same setup as Tundra though...(or vice-versa actually)


----------



## Buzz Saw

Would auger flighting work as turbs? Auger flighting can be found pretty easily in an agricultural community. It wouldn't even need to be new. Find some used flighting and install.  If flighting is to restrictive sections could be cut out to allow more flow.


----------



## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> Would auger flighting work as turbs? Auger flighting can be found pretty easily in an agricultural community. It wouldn't even need to be nee. Find some used flighting and install.  If flighting is to restrictive sections could be cut out to allow more flow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 171390


I've seen some DIY boiler guys use that...


----------



## laynes69

There's now an add-on return plenum for the Caddy's that allows them to be setup the same as the older versions.


----------



## DoubleB

Well @brenndatomu  inspired me with this talk about turbulators, so I had to try.

In my basement I quickly spotted a 5.25” long chunk of spare 6” diameter black stove pipe, that unfolds to a circumference of about 19”.  I used tin snips and cut it along the black lines shown in this drawing.  A couple shots of CAD to give an idea of the intent.  Many chances for the fins to catch air at the center and bring it to the HX tube surface, but without blocking the ability of the gases to pass through to the flue.

The fins were easy to bend to shape with my (gloved) hands, and I gave the piece a twist between each stage of fins.  I test-fit it into a scrap piece of 6” ductwork, no problems.  Finally, it slid into place very easily.  The HX cover is held in place with a bolt (shown) that obscured a straight shot into the HX tube, but this redneck turbulator easily flexed around it.

I just got it installed 15 minutes ago, so no news yet.  We’ll see if I can tell a difference.

It’s quite crude, but it was worthwhile because it was easy to do, easy to adapt the design (or do over) if I wanted to, required almost no tools or skill using cheap and available material, and will make an excellent addition to my neighbor’s windchime collection if I don’t want it.

Plus, it should be just as easy to do the same for the 2 outside tubes if I desire, even though their diameter is smaller.

Anyways, maybe this will encourage someone to try who is hesitant that great skill or materials or welding would be required.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Well @brenndatomu  inspired me with this talk about turbulators, so I had to try.
> 
> In my basement I quickly spotted a 5.25” long chunk of spare 6” diameter black stove pipe, that unfolds to a circumference of about 19”.  I used tin snips and cut it along the black lines shown in this drawing.  A couple shots of CAD to give an idea of the intent.  Many chances for the fins to catch air at the center and bring it to the HX tube surface, but without blocking the ability of the gases to pass through to the flue.
> 
> The fins were easy to bend to shape with my (gloved) hands, and I gave the piece a twist between each stage of fins.  I test-fit it into a scrap piece of 6” ductwork, no problems.  Finally, it slid into place very easily.  The HX cover is held in place with a bolt (shown) that obscured a straight shot into the HX tube, but this redneck turbulator easily flexed around it.
> 
> I just got it installed 15 minutes ago, so no news yet.  We’ll see if I can tell a difference.
> 
> It’s quite crude, but it was worthwhile because it was easy to do, easy to adapt the design (or do over) if I wanted to, required almost no tools or skill using cheap and available material, and will make an excellent addition to my neighbor’s windchime collection if I don’t want it.
> 
> Plus, it should be just as easy to do the same for the 2 outside tubes if I desire, even though their diameter is smaller.
> 
> Anyways, maybe this will encourage someone to try who is hesitant that great skill or materials or welding would be required.
> 
> View attachment 171404
> View attachment 171405
> View attachment 171406
> View attachment 171407
> View attachment 171408
> View attachment 171409
> View attachment 171410


Dang it man! That is some fo-real modern art! And your just gonna soot it all up! 
That is a good idea using light gauge metal, at least to test designs anyways. I 'spose I went heavier than I would have had to.
Did you model the airflow across that? Not sure after a quick study session what the flow path will look like exactly


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> fo-real modern art!



No kidding!  I'm still not sure if it looks beautiful or hideous.  Maybe that's art.  (I've never really understood "art").

Anyways... 


brenndatomu said:


> Did you model the airflow across that? Not sure after a quick study session what the flow path will look like exactly



No formal airflow model.  I might be a geeky engineer, but I don't currently have that much ambition for an analysis that might marginally improve things beyond what I rigged by a total of 19 splits over the course of a winter.  The general idea is that the fins near the center scoop air from the center towards the outside, depositing those gases at the inlets of the next fins downstream which are on the outside and curved in the opposite direction, further mixing the gases.  (The CAD doesn't show this quite accurately, but you can make it out from the as-built pictures on the countertop.)  

Well, gotta go load the overnight...


----------



## Builderml

So all this time I have been burning it according to what sbi suggest in the owners manual. Fill firebox with desired load of wood and let it go thru its whole cycle. Once you burn that down and you notice its cooling off reload again. Repeat and repeat. A few days ago I loaded when I woke up  filled firebox. about 45 mins later (peak burn) came back down before heading to work and figured  heck I can squeeze a couple more pieces now that everything has settled down in firebox. So I put a couple pieces on top and closed door. I never opened damper. My secondary burn almost doubled. Increased my stack temp about 15*- 20*. I have tried this now for the past few days with the same results. I know the tundra likes to run in secondary mode which it was designed for. I figure if I can get more heat out of it this way why not. Wondering if anyone else has tried running it this way with this same results? I know adding the fresh wood while in peak burn  (almost melts my hands trying to load at this point ) causes more smoke for the secondaries to burn off. Anyone else been burning it this way?


----------



## brenndatomu

I've done it before. It's kinda the same thing as loading on a huge pile of screamin hot coals, it gets the wood outgassing fast and hard, LOTS of fuel for the fire. For me anyways, the only issue with loading this way is that I get a little smoke out the door sometimes.
When the stove guys do this, it's called "going nuclear"...


----------



## brenndatomu

Just something interesting...I said before that the front of my Tundra seems to be where the heat is at...so I'm playing with my Christmas present tonight (thermal imaging camera) giving the house a scan when I walk by the Tundra. Visual proof of my previous statement, noticeably hotter toward the front. No wonder the front (3rd) duct runs ~10* hotter


----------



## maple1

You just now got to pointing that thing at your furnace? 

I think I would have made a bee-line for it as soon as I got it out of the box. 

(Interesting stuff....)


----------



## KARB2014

I made some turbs out of 0.032 304 stainless. They are similar to the ones that @DoubleB  designed. I have nothing scientific to go off of but since Friday I have noticed that in the coal stage I seem to be getting more heat. The reason I say this is because I'm able to keep the house above 70 long enough to burn down the coals with no intervention of me. The blower also doesn't cycle as much. Under a fresh load while under full flames my Chimney pipe doesn't go over 350, Before it would get really close to 400. Now those number are with a full load and damper being open for over 20mins. I still have my secondary intake about 50% closed off.


----------



## KARB2014

brenndatomu said:


> Just something interesting...I said before that the front of my Tundra seems to be where the heat is at...so I'm playing with my Christmas present tonight (thermal imaging camera) giving the house a scan when I walk by the Tundra. Visual proof of my previous statement, noticeably hotter toward the front. No wonder the front (3rd) duct runs ~10* hotter


Looking at that I'm really thinking it would benefit us all to really make a plenum for our furnaces. I knew the front ran hotter but this shows how much of an air dam that is in the front. It also have me wanting to look into how much time I would have into making a false front.


----------



## sloeffle

Builderml said:


> So all this time I have been burning it according to what sbi suggest in the owners manual. Fill firebox with desired load of wood and let it go thru its whole cycle. Once you burn that down and you notice its cooling off reload again. Repeat and repeat.......... Wondering if anyone else has tried running it this way with this same results? I know adding the fresh wood while in peak burn causes more smoke for the secondaries to burn off. Anyone else been burning it this way?


The manual for the older Caddy's mentions nothing about how to burn the furnace. It would of been nice to know a few years ago. Depending on the weather and house temp I will sometimes reload in the middle of a peak burn. I will just throw a couple splits in and prop the damper door open to about and 1/8th" for about 5 minutes and it will normally go back to burning the way it was before.


Builderml said:


> almost melts my hands trying to load at this point )


Bought some of these welders gloves off of Amazon to help the heat on my hands.


----------



## DoubleB

KARB2014 said:


> I have noticed that in the coal stage I seem to be getting more heat.





KARB2014 said:


> Under a fresh load while under full flames my Chimney pipe doesn't go over 350, Before it would get really close to 400.



Nice to hear your results.  In fact, I believe I have noticed the same things on mine.  My register temps are higher, and my chimney pipe (single-wall black pipe) temps are down about 50F from before.

Now, my caveat is that I cleaned the HX tubes 24 hrs before I put in the turb, and they were also more dirty than I expected.  So of course that improved performance too, and I don't know how much of that is due to the turb vs. cleaner tubes.  

Another difference I noticed (might be imaginary, but who knows), is it seems smoke spills out a bit easier during reloads.  If true, then maybe the turb is causing some resistance in the main HX tube so I upped my baro to a 0.06" draft to compensate.  Who knows if that has things burning a bit hotter or not (but my burn times are no worse).

Weather here has been quite cold (-12F at night and breezy), spotty sun during the day, 2100 sq ft old farmhouse, and the Tundra is just keeping up.  Performance is no worse with the turb installed, and might be better, so it stays for now.


----------



## Builderml

Looks like I need to keep an eye on the two corners below the H.E door. Almost 1/8" long on the right side and maybe 1/16" long on the left side. I'm afraid to say the word but it starts with a "C".  Still trying to figure out if its the paint or the steel. Now you know I'll keep you posted as things progress.


----------



## Builderml

Is the area around the H.E. door part of the firebox at that point? I don't think so because none of that area is even welded. To me if it was part of the firebox it would allow some smoke to come out.


----------



## Builderml

I wish it wasn't such a pain to load pictures on here from my phone. Can someone on this site fix that please???


----------



## KARB2014

Builderml said:


> Is the area around the H.E. door part of the firebox at that point? I don't think so because none of that area is even welded. To me if it was part of the firebox it would allow some smoke to come out.


Mine is not welded around the heat exchanger door as well. I was wondering if that was something they were doing on the higher serial numbered units.


----------



## Builderml

KARB2014 said:


> Mine is not welded around the heat exchanger door as well. I was wondering if that was something they were doing on the higher serial numbered units.


All I have are some tack welds along the bottom.


----------



## Builderml

Can you see what i see?  After scratching it this morning with a nail its safe to say that it is not the paint. Right side of H.E. opening. I think its safe to say that i have the newest model out of everyone on this site. " #1993 " I believe everyone on here gave SBI the benefit thinking things were finally figured out and cracking problem solved. Well here's your answer.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yup, I's 'fraid of that. 
I weren't gonna say anything yet, but at y'alls recommendation that these things don't heat well unless you run 'em hard...I been running the bag off of mine during this cold snap and I see that one of the existing "C"s has grown, despite the heat shield. I will drill it tomorrow, see if that stops it without welding...sorry to see that builder...gotta say though, I'm not too surprised with the temps you have been getting outta 'er...


----------



## DoubleB

Uh oh Houston.  Crack indeed.  Sorry to see that.  I agree that bumping it off the high limit probably didn't help things, but that's still not good to see.  I think the HX flange you asked about is welded on the inside, not outside, but would have to open the door to confirm.

I checked my cracks a couple days ago I don't think they have grown this year, but neither did I mark them this summer as @brenndatomu wisely did.  My temps on the front face of the firebox have definitely been lower since adding overtemp protection and the firebrick.  That said, I actually get my highest temps on the front face during secondary cruising, at the top corners of the loading door.  Seems those temps actually drop a bit if I open the damper (even though everything else skyrockets).


----------



## KARB2014

I would really like to know if any of the Caddy owners have looked behind the false fronts. I'm just curios if any of them have cracking and just can't easily see it.


----------



## TheBigIron

I know that it was mentioned in earlier posts about building a false front for the furnace.  What would that entail?  Anyone know?  Thanks in advance.  

Dave


----------



## laynes69

I've been behind mine and there was no cracking. Like mentioned before, the front remains cooler, and there's room for expansion on the heat exchanger and the firebox. That solid front probably doesn't move, but the firebox and exchanger will heat and expand.


----------



## Builderml

I called SBI to see what i needed to do at this point. Email has been sent along with pictures. Now its a waiting game to see what they say and how they respond. I just hope it doesn't have to get nasty.
FYI
I know many may think that the Caddy and Tundra may have the same firebox. I asked the tech while i was on the phone if they were both pretty much the same thing. Response was no not even close.


----------



## sloeffle

KARB2014 said:


> I would really like to know if any of the Caddy owners have looked behind the false fronts. I'm just curios if any of them have cracking and just can't easily see it.


Taking the false front off looks like it will be a lot of work. I think I am going to pass, sorry. I have had my furnace for three or four years and I haven't seen any cracking.

Where is the cracking taking place on the Tundra's ?


----------



## DoubleB

Good luck Buildermi.  I hope it turns out well.  Keep us posted.



Builderml said:


> I know many may think that the Caddy and Tundra may have the same firebox. I asked the tech while i was on the phone if they were both pretty much the same thing. Response was no not even close.



I believe they have a tech that would tell you that.  On another forum one of the original Tundra/Heatmax reps from SBI described how they're basically the same firebox.  (Not to mention those on this forum who have seen both).  From what I experienced and have read here, it's hard to get a straight story out of SBI.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I know many may think that the Caddy and Tundra may have the same firebox. I asked the tech while i was on the phone if they were both pretty much the same thing. Response was no not even close.


I beg to differ. We have already proven that the SBI reps don't know what they are talking about half the time.
The more time I spend working on this thing, and now that I have had my head inside (and all around) a Caddy...I think it is just as Fyrebug said, identical fireboxes. The only difference as far as the firebox is concerned, is that the Caddy has an air jacket around the front so the blower air can pass between the jacket and the front firebox wall. Well, that and the ash drawer plug instead of a ash grate like Caddy.
The only place that I can't say if they are the same or not is the grade of the metal itself...but I really suspect it is the same.
Oh, and the loading doors are hinged on opposite sides...


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Yup, I's 'fraid of that.
> I weren't gonna say anything yet, but at y'alls recommendation that these things don't heat well unless you run 'em hard...I been running the bag off of mine during this cold snap and I see that one of the existing "C"s has grown, despite the heat shield. I will drill it tomorrow, see if that stops it without welding...sorry to see that builder...gotta say though, I'm not too surprised with the temps you have been getting outta 'er...


I never said that.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> The only difference as far as the firebox is concerned, is that the Caddy has an air jacket around the front so the blower air can pass between the jacket and the front firebox wall.



We've talked about the Caddy's front air jacket for a year around here, and it only now occurred to me to just blow a fan over the front of my Tundra and see how much that drops the steel temps.  If the temp drops a lot, that might suggest the front air jacket on the Caddy is indeed key to preventing cracking.

Not sure what to do after that, but at least might strengthen one of our theories and we can figure how to deal with it after that.


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Good luck Buildermi.  I hope it turns out well.  Keep us posted.


Thanks, I sure will keep y'all posted.
Its not the fact that it cracked that is getting under my skin. I tried doing my research prior to purchase and I knew these units had cracking issues thanks to "hearth". So I took the time and called sbi to confirm that the issues were taken care of, and I was told yes. Also I asked so the units currently available for purchase are good to go, again I was told yes. That's the part that has me upset. Now tonight they tell me that I might have received " old stock". So I gave him my serial number and he said thats not really a newer one. Needless to say I won't type out here what I really wanted to tell him. So buyer beware think twice before you purchase one at this point and time.
One other thing, I think it's complete B.S. that these can not be run at or around high limit without failing. If that is the case it in itself proves a design flaw. Guess the high limit is to high now isn't it??? Not rocket science to figure that out.


----------



## DoubleB

@Builderml ,
Your thoughts are right on target, IMHO.  You're totally right, that getting burned after specifically doing homework to avoid it makes it seem like deceit.  I'll won't opine whether SBI deceived you, but I won't defend them either.  I feel sorry for you, and all I can say is that I know how you feel, for the same reason.

I still think it's wise to avoid the high limit since it's possible to do so.  That said, I sure don't design my products to enable users to operate them in ways that I know might cause significant problems.  Just not good design.

Another thought is some posts ago I mentioned my hottest temps that I measure with my IR gun are at the top corners of the loading door, with the damper closed and secondaries cruising.  And of course this is where the cracks like to manifest around the loading door.  Therefore, I suppose it's also possible that the cracking has nothing to do with high overall temps and burn rate, nor with the high temp snap disc.

Oh, the story continues...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I too feel for you. But after reading all of the 40 pages here and 100+ on AS you should have known better. If I were you I would be pissed that at the time you talked to them and purchased, SBI was giving full refunds or replacements. Now they are paying for a welder. Which then voids the warranty. I believe anyway.


----------



## trx250r87

Ever since I installed a key damper last year I have had better luck with keeping heat in the house and not sending it up the chimney and burning wood too quickly. My draft is way to high with a 27' chimney. (Yes I have a Dwyer Mark II on the wall.)

This is my 3rd season with the Tundra and I have one of the earlier units with snap discs in the back rather than on top. Last year I installed the ash drawer fix and I sealed the plug in with high temp cement. I upgraded the top snap disc kit and recently I installed the damper door/front brick update.  I don't have any cracks but I don't let it get out of control either. I think I have kit the high limit about a half dozen times where the damper closes by itself.

My home is a 4 year old 1723 sq feet ranch spec home with good insulation but poor, really cheap windows. The main area has 12' or 13' cathedral ceilings. My basement is open and unfinished with bare concrete walls (I'm guessing at least 1700 sq feet as well).

I live in Northeast Wisconsin so the weather is probably as cold if not colder than some of the people on here. I don't have a cold air plenum, just air down the  basement stairs and sucking off the basement floor.  

To make a long story short, I feel my Tundra does a decent job heating my house. In below zero (F) weather I can keep the natural gas furnace from running and even gain a couple degrees if I want to. 

My only complaint is that I feel like I need to babysit the Tundra. Every time I have a fire the furnace seems to act a little different, never a consistent, predictable burn.  It's not a set it and forget it for me. The only thing I might want high to add is a "hot tub timer" to close the damper after 20-30 minutes after loading. 

The person I have dealt with at SBI has been great to deal with. I have had numerous parts sent to me free of charge (fire brick, damper motor, 3 ash pan kits including a spare gasket and tubes of cement, damper restrictor kit, front fire brick kit...).
Not once did SBI give me the run around or make anything difficult. All parts were delivered on time as promised. 

The best part is that I got the furnace on Craigslist and am not even the original owner! The previous owner had it for a month and said it didn't make enough heat so I bought it for $800 less and got the tax credit too.


----------



## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> I too feel for you. But after reading all of the 40 pages here and 100+ on AS you should have known better. If I were you I would be pissed that at the time you talked to them and purchased, SBI was giving full refunds or replacements. Now they are paying for a welder. Which then voids the warranty. I believe anyway.



<rant>  
What I have an issue with is a company that builds cheap junk just for the sake of filling a market void in order to make $$$.  Maybe there's a reason why there was a market void in the first place......and I think you're seeing why, quality costs $$$ plain and simple.  People don't care about quality anymore, all they care about is buying something cheap, cheap, cheap.  Caveat emptor is something I learned way back in HS and it has stuck with me.

As far as I know, SBI is known to be a good company building quality stuff, and then they released this  a b o r t i o n.  Why would a company take the chance of ruining it's reputation on a single product line?

</rant>

  carry on


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> quality costs $$$ plain and simple. People don't care about quality anymore, all they care about is buying something cheap, cheap, cheap.



The fact that we aren't living in caves is because mankind takes chances of doing more with less (more quality at less cost) and over time succeeds.  Look at cell phones.  So it is normal and good to believe that SBI could figure out how to sell a product that performs well and costs less.  Add a good company reputation, good warranty, highly leverage a known good product (Caddy), and I find it hard to accuse people for buying a Tundra.  It's their money, they can decide, and live with the good and bad consequences, as we are.

Which leads to the reputation.  You're right, it's too bad to see that slide.   I hope they can figure this out quickly so that it ends as a better value than before, instead of a lasting fail.


----------



## brenndatomu

I really don't think it would add much to the cost of a new unit to address the issues...so what if it cost another $100...if that means they work well (reliably), then GIT-R-DUN!
I also think they should sell the Tundra with the _option_ of duct connections like they have currently, or a plenum. Maybe a plenum like the Heatpro?


Builderml said:


> Thanks, I sure will keep y'all posted.
> Its not the fact that it cracked that is getting under my skin. I tried doing my research prior to purchase and I knew these units had cracking issues thanks to "hearth". So I took the time and called sbi to confirm that the issues were taken care of, and I was told yes. Also I asked so the units currently available for purchase are good to go, again I was told yes. That's the part that has me upset. Now tonight they tell me that I might have received " old stock".


Too bad they told you this on the phone instead of an email...written proof n all...


----------



## laynes69

It sucks for the consumer to have these issues, but it's not their fault for buying a product. Cheap is a relative word, could be used multiple ways. Not everyone can afford a 5000 dollar furnace plus shipping, with a possible chimney install and the cost of labor. Really.......it's the consumer's fault for buying cheap?!?, please. SBI is one of the largest manufacturers of wood burning units, with many very reputable lines. Do you think SBI wants this?? doubt it.  It's not the first company with problems and won't be the last. I'm with Brenn, whatever it takes to rectify the problem they need to do it. 

I can't stand the comments of money and how people should spend it, when a majority of people even if it was 1,000 dollars couldn't afford something. Not everyone has a high paying job, a saving, credit, etc.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Too bad they told you this on the phone instead of an email...written proof n all...


Yes and no. While that was a phone conversation and will be tough to prove I do have an email from sbi as follows. Here's the story. Right around the time I was about to fire the tundra for the first time I learned of the front firebrick update once again thanks to Hearth. So when I requested the new firebricks I also ask in an email if I should not fire up the Tundra until I had the new firebricks installed due to the cracking issue. Again I was trying to play it safe and get the info from the horses mouth. SBI wrote back 
" while we are not in the peak heating season and you will likely not be running the tundra 24/7 you are all set to use it". I think most of us who live on the eastern half of the US know that the heating season just started about a couple weeks ago. Really warm until recently around here. So its safe to say that the firebrick update was installed well before the 24/7 heating season kicked in.


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> The fact that we aren't living in caves is because mankind takes chances of doing more with less (more quality at less cost) and over time succeeds.  Look at cell phones.  So it is normal and good to believe that SBI could figure out how to sell a product that performs well and costs less.  Add a good company reputation, good warranty, highly leverage a known good product (Caddy), and I find it hard to accuse people for buying a Tundra.  It's their money, they can decide, and live with the good and bad consequences, as we are.
> 
> Which leads to the reputation.  You're right, it's too bad to see that slide.   I hope they can figure this out quickly so that it ends as a better value than before, instead of a lasting fail.



We don't live in caves anymore due to scientific advancement of our species and from that came the efficiency you mention.  The Tundra benefited from this same advancement but then choose to skimp on material and labor during the design/manufacturing process in order to produce it cheap to be sold in big box stores.  The Tundra is not my sole source of frustration.  Consumers are just getting what they've wanted over the past couple decades......cheap.  It's hard to buy quality anything anymore and it's just irritating.  The aftermarket car parts industry is a prime example.  You can't find quality aftermarket car parts.  I recently had a power steering pump go bad on one of my cars.  Heck if I was going to buy some "remanufactured" pump made in China so it too can fail.  I ended up paying almost $300 for a power steering pump from -TURN ONE-.  Why???  Because, 





> The most important component of Turn One products is quality. Turn One gives you performance you can feel on or off the track. Every component used to assemble our products is 100% new and made in the USA. Each power steering pump and gear is dyno tested to ensure top quality and performance, to give you quality in every turn.




Manufacturing in the US has pretty much got up and left.  We will not get it back unless we stop accepting the cheap crap being pushed on us.

Sorry, I went on a tangent once again and steered this thread in a different direction once again.   I should have just kept quiet....lol  It's just that all this cheaply made stuff in today's society bothers me.  Quality didn't used to cost a fortune, it's the influx of inferior quality items at an inflated price is what is driving up the price of true quality.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> I can't stand the comments of money and how people should spend it, when a majority of people even if it was 1,000 dollars couldn't afford something. Not everyone has a high paying job, a saving, credit, etc


Totally off topic here but this comment made me think of this...interesting bit of trivia.
Did you know that if you make more than $11k per year that you make more than 90% of the worlds population. And if you make more than $50k (or up to $60k per year depending who you believe) that you are in the worlds top 1% wealthiest?!
Now back to Tundras...


----------



## centennial60

Hello all, I don't post much on here but I have been watching this thread. Seeing where these units are cracking makes me wonder if it is due to the secondary hx box being welded to the front face of the furnace. It seems to me that this should be able to expand and contract independently. Can anyone verify if the caddy's have the tack welds below the clean out door?


----------



## 3fordasho

Closed on my new place November 2014 (after many delays because of septic and well compliance issues) and wanted a wood heating solution ASAP ( after moving 15+ cords of wood from the old place I was NOT going to just pay the propane man)   I did seriously look at the "quality" options out there, Kuuma, and Caddy lines and I usually go for them but this time lead times and the fact that I need several heating units kind of ruled out a 5K a pop Kuuma.   In went a $1500 Tundra and a further discounted one into the 2400sqft shop knowing some of the issues that other users were experiencing.   After a quick and easy install in the house I quickly identified the rudimentary controls on the Tundra could allow it to get to hot or burn too cool after the damper closed and I added my simple flue temp control.   Now some will argue the higher end options would not have needed this addition and you are probably correct, but almost all of the wood furnace installs are not plug and play and need considerable tweaking.

So second season heating 3400sq ft house with the Tundra and it handles it fine down to 10F or less if it's not real windy, ease of operation is as good as it gets with my add on temp control...  I'm calling it a win so far and would buy it again.   I do fire up my Woodstock Progress Hybrid when it gets  below zero (a quality product that has had it's share of issues - had to send it back for a rebuild - it had smoke leakage issues from day one)

First season on the Tundra in the 1950's built Quonset shop - Tundra is undersized again but it can bring it up to mid 40's from a everything cold start and then minutes of propane assist from the unit heater gets it to a usable temp of 60F - then the Tundra can maintain with little or no more assist from the propane unit heater.  Again Tundra for the affordable win.

If my Tundra's develop cracks, and there are none so far, well the wire feed welder is about 30ft away- I guess I'll wheel it over and weld the thing up.


----------



## brenndatomu

centennial60 said:


> Can anyone verify if the caddy's have the tack welds below the clean out door?


Yep, same


----------



## KARB2014

The more I have been looking at the Caddy's the more I don't buy the idea that the false front is stopping the cracking. From what I can see, from the pictures I have been finding online, the false front is atleast 1.5" away from where everyone is experiencing the cracking. From what I can see there is still more than enough room for heat to cause issues. I'm wondering if the steel is not Canadian steel but China steel? Also it has me wondering about how they cut the front panel if they are making it sharp corners or radius' in the corners? Then are they skimping out on the welding, less and smaller welds? It maybe two different manufactures producing the front panels. As of right now I don't have any cracking but looking at those welds I would never let them past QA. They look small and the weld under cuts on most of them, I would like to see what there prints spec out between the two units.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I love the idea of the Tundra, I love that the rep came on these sites asking the wood burning nuts what they like and dislike in wood furnaces. I love that its a low cost secondary combustion unit. I wish they spent another year on research and development to get the many bugs out. I don't understand as laynes69 said, SBI is one of the largest wood burning appliance manufacturers, Yet little things slipped through the cracks like flue gas into the plenum from the ash pan, location of snap disc, and unprotected front. Those are things a company with that kind of experience should have known. At the very least they have a leg up with a couple trial years ahead of the competition with other brands in R&D at the moment.


----------



## Builderml

STIHLY DAN said:


> I love the idea of the Tundra, I love that the rep came on these sites asking the wood burning nuts what they like and dislike in wood furnaces. I love that its a low cost secondary combustion unit. I wish they spent another year on research and development to get the many bugs out. I don't understand as laynes69 said, SBI is one of the largest wood burning appliance manufacturers, Yet little things slipped through the cracks like flue gas into the plenum from the ash pan, location of snap disc, and unprotected front. Those are things a company with that kind of experience should have known. At the very least they have a leg up with a couple trial years ahead of the competition with other brands in R&D at the moment.


It's funny you say that. Back in the end of August when I was looking into purchasing a wood furnace. I again found out from hearth that there was rumors about a larger tundra type unit being made. So when I made my original call to SBI questioning them on weither or not the cracking issues were taken care of I also asked about the rumor of a larger unit being available shortly. SBI rep laughed and replied , I am not sure how you are getting this information but no we do not have any larger units that are ready for production we just have a proto type model right now. So now a few months later they have the "heatpro" that is available for purchase. To me that is a pretty short time to go from prototype into production and be able to varify that the units were tested properly. Time will tell if they will have the same issues with the Heatpro.


----------



## DoubleB

Today was pretty warm so the Tundra cooled down enough to clean the HX tubes and inspect the turbulator from post #923.  I found a problem:  I sure didn't design that thing for easy cleaning.  Two dozen curved fins that deflect away when you try to clean them.  I'm sure there's an easier way, I just need to find it.  Oh well, I got it good enough for now.  Not like it needs to transfer heat, just change flow direction.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> Is the area around the H.E. door part of the firebox at that point? I don't think so because none of that area is even welded.





KARB2014 said:


> Mine is not welded around the heat exchanger door as well.



I checked mine today and confirmed that my HX flange is indeed welded on the inside.  I would assume yours is, too, but you'll have to check next time you open the HX door.


----------



## brenndatomu

For the Tundra owners who have never seen the way a Caddy is set up, and for Caddy owners who have never seen a Tundra in person, I will try to explain the difference in the way the front is made.
On the Tundra, the steel that is the front of the firebox extends 2-3" past the firebox width for the full height of the furnace and the air jacket attaches directly to it both on the sides, and the top.
On the Caddy, the steel that forms the front of the firebox ends at the sides of the firebox. The side air jacket panels are still spaced that same 2-3" away from the firebox, but, are attached to some brackets instead of that front panel. Now here is where the big difference comes in. The whole front of the furnace is completely covered by the air jacket with only the HE cleanout door, the loading door, and the ash pan door sticking out. There is 1", maybe 1.5" between the firebox and the front air jacket panel, and air from the blower is free to circulate through there on its way to the plenum...and there is a TON of heat to be picked up from that area. 
Now, I'm not sure if the blower circulating air through there is keeping the steel cool, or if the air jacket is kinda insulating the steel from the stress of having fire on one side and cool room air on the other? I suspect the former...


----------



## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> I wish they spent another year on research and development to get the many bugs out.



Why should they.....that's what they are using the public for....lol  R&D costs $$$$$, using the public as guinea pigs is "free".  Just like Microsoft did with Windows Vista.


----------



## Buzz Saw

JRHAWK9 said:


> Why should they.....that's what they are using the public for....lol  R&D costs $$$$$, using the public as guinea pigs is "free".  Just like Microsoft did with Windows Vista.


Vista [emoji13]


----------



## Builderml

centennial60 said:


> Hello all, I don't post much on here but I have been watching this thread. Seeing where these units are cracking makes me wonder if it is due to the secondary hx box being welded to the front face of the furnace. It seems to me that this should be able to expand and contract independently. Can anyone verify if the caddy's have the tack welds below the clean out door?


I was thinking the same thing. The way those two metals meet they want to expand in different directions. I guess the stronger of the two is winning. No issue so far with the top two corners but that's also not welded.


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, time for an update of recent events.
I decided to take the insulation blanket out from behind the firebrick to try to get some heat off the firebox itself, especially the hot coals part of the burn cycle. I did this a couple weeks ago right before the real cold snap...big mistake. I hadn't considered the possibility that this lil experiment could backfire...but it did. The firebox temp was lower, still good secondary burn, but just not as hot as before...noticeably. I had to wait to warmer weather to let Tundra cool down so that I could heat with the lil stove upstairs during insulation re-install.
After I finished I decided to pull the side air jacket panels off to look around again in preparation for designing a top to install a plenum on. So I'm lookin all around the HEs to figure out how the air flows through this thing and I notice something...a crack! Well, not really a crack, more like a gap. When this thing was built the guy (gal) that welded the backside of the HE cleanout box to the side of the box just kinda missed with the welder, the weld just barely touched the back panel for a couple inches and the ultra thin weld didn't hold at all. Looks like it has been this way for a long time...likely from one of the first fires. I KNEW there was something wrong with this thing! As soon as I seen it I said "there it is!" This gap was enough that you could see light through so it was definitely flowing air.
This would cause problems two different ways.
1. The draft of the chimney would not draw as hard on the firebox because it was getting some of the draw satisfied here instead of pulling everything through the firebox. So the firebox is not gonna burn quite as hard.
2. The hot exhaust flowing though the HE cleanout box and the center HE would be cooled by the pressurized (+.2" WC) air from the blower since this gap was inside the air jacket. It also explains the very occasional wisp of smoke smell that I noticed too. Here's pics



	

		
			
		

		
	
 Oh, I forgot. This is the one crack at the top right of the loading door that has grown here lately. I drilled it and will just fill the hole with furnace cement without welding to see if that alone will stop the crack.


	

		
			
		

		
	
 The offender...


	

		
			
		

		
	
 From the inside...see the light...


	

		
			
		

		
	
Post repair



	

		
			
		

		
	
 A shot of the left side showing where this area is...and for anybody who has never seen a nekked Tundra...


	

		
			
		

		
	
 The right side... just because
I fired up last night and it is hard to tell for sure how much difference this repair has made, but it did help, for sure. The duct temps seem to hold higher and for quite a bit longer. It wasn't that cold here today (low 30s) but the morning load managed to raise the house 3-4*...and that has never happened before!
I have never in my life had a reason to torch or weld in the house...and now this thing has caused me to do both, inside of a 6-8 week period no less!


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Is the area around the H.E. door part of the firebox at that point? I don't think so because none of that area is even welded. To me if it was part of the firebox it would allow some smoke to come out.


You are correct, the HE cleanout box is about 3/8" or so above the actual firebox. So that crack is (as of now) just in the front panel of the furnace. And smoke shouldn't come out anyways (normally)...chimney has a negative pressure on the firebox


----------



## laynes69

That's crazy! As far as I know a majority of the welding is done by robotic welders. There's no reason why something like that should happen.

I'm curious, and hopefully someone on here will purchase a usstove epa furnace. I guess, I would like to see if they suffer the same problems, and would be curious with their performance.


----------



## laynes69

That's crazy! As far as I know a majority of the welding is done by robotic welders. There's no reason why something like that should happen.

I'm curious, and hopefully someone on here will purchase a usstove epa furnace. I guess, I would like to see if they suffer the same problems, and would be curious with their performance.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> As far as I know a majority of the welding is done by robotic welders.


I doubt it...but if it is, then they have robot problems because I know of at least one other case where someone found a spot on theirs that was completely without weld...


----------



## Byron21

Good work Brenn very interesting....I was getting a smoke smell from time to time with mine last year...I assumed its was from another area...Just below the loading door there is an air inlet "small hole" drilled into the fire box ...now if you look to the back of the firebox there is also another one center of the box down low... It looked to me that it was drawing its air from within the heat jacket at the back of the stove maybe you could confirm this. I figured I was getting some smoke backing into the heat jacket there... my other question was how was air not being forced into the firebox when the blower was going ... Of coarse I never took the thing apart to see how it was set up ....anyhow just wondering if you noticed it ...good work man


----------



## KARB2014

brenndatomu said:


> I doubt it...but if it is, then they have robot problems because I know of at least one other case where someone found a spot on theirs that was completely without weld...


To be honest I would rather have a human doing the welding, especially were it involves fab parts. We have two robots at work and anytime it is not two machined parts being welded together you have the issue you are seeing here.


----------



## Buzz Saw

KARB2014 said:


> To be honest I would rather have a human doing the welding, especially were it involves fab parts. We have two robots at work and anytime it is not two machined parts being welded together you have the issue you are seeing here.


I've been out of the industry for a few years now but this can be fixed with better fixturing and program manipulation.  Also adding vision to compensate for bad fit up will make the robot very reliable.


----------



## brenndatomu

Byron21 said:


> It looked to me that it was drawing its air from within the heat jacket at the back of the stove maybe you could confirm this.


 IIRC, it draws from the ash pan area...


Byron21 said:


> my other question was how was air not being forced into the firebox when the blower was going


 Well, the air that was being blown in there just went with the flow...up the chimney...I would guess


----------



## Byron21

brenndatomu said:


> IIRC, it draws from the ash pan area...
> Well, the air that was being blown in there just went with the flow...up the chimney...I would guess


 yeah that makes sense thanks brenn


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## lexybird

Brenn I gotta say I am shocked that furnace had so many issues . I'm glad you took the time to investigate further and do the repairs


----------



## lexybird

The stove shop company I did business with in Ohio that sells caddys  moves alot of them ,even Max caddys  . The Amish in the area  buy them up . They remove the side panels and add a bimetallic damper to control the air flap . So keep in mind without electric they have no blower to cool them off or high limit .When I asked him if they had any cracking issues or warped fireboxes .. . He said in all the years they sold them they never have seen that or had any return or defect for that matter .he sells dozens each year on average .  I was told the only thing that they ever warrantied was once a guy melted his secondary burn tubes on one  small caddy due to the owner burning Eco bricks exclusively instead of any firewood. That testimony helped me with my decision to purchase my max caddy . It is amazing how they could be so similar yet so different to the drolet stuff .whatever psg did in their original design they got it right .being  sbi owns psg I can't help but wonder how much more cost could it be to simply copy the caddy line and rebadge it as a tundra or heat pro with very minor skimping on quality


----------



## Builderml

Great work Brenn yet again, I am wondering have you reported any of your findings to SBI? I know your unit has been blacklisted but I would think SBI would like to know of your findings. Looks like the quality control manager and methods need some serious improvement. I personally think that these are welded via humans not robots. Maybe you got a late Friday unit.


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## laynes69

I could be wrong about the welding, but I do remember an employee saying they have alot of automation in the plant. I assumed welding is one of those areas. I guess however with the amount and areas of the the welds in the heat exchanger, some of those are probably hand welded. Either way, things like that shouldn't be missed.

 As far as the doghouse air both in front and back of the firebox on the tundra, that air should be pulled from the 2 holes up front and nowhere else.


----------



## brenndatomu

lexybird said:


> Brenn I gotta say I am shocked that furnace had so many issues . I'm glad you took the time to investigate further and do the repairs


Meh, this is really the first actual "screwed up" finding beyond the original cracking...I have not really identified any exact manufacturing issue having to do with the low heat output...except for the latest finding...heat output does seem to be up now...cold snap coming tonight, sounds like a good test to me! 


lexybird said:


> I can't help but wonder how much more cost could it be to simply copy the caddy line and rebadge it as a tundra or heat pro with very minor skimping on quality


Exactly! Like I said before, I would gladly have given up the ash pan completely for the air jacket to have been like the Caddy, lotta heat lost there.


Builderml said:


> I am wondering have you reported any of your findings to SBI? I know your unit has been blacklisted but I would think SBI would like to know of your findings


No, but I find it hard to believe somebody from SBI hasn't found this thread by now...probably have Monday morning meetings around the latest Hearth "uh-oh"!


----------



## Builderml

Wasn't there and individual by the name of Fryeburg that was associated with SBI on here before? You would think that a company that does probably 75% of its sales online would have more of a presents in forums such as these.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Wasn't there and individual by the name of Fryeburg that was associated with SBI on here before? You would think that a company that does probably 75% of its sales online would have more of a presents in forums such as these.


Yes. He left SBI to manage a hardware chain IIRC. Yukon had a rep over on AS too...he kinda mysteriously disappeared both from AS and Yukon too. Rumor had it that something went down there, at least Fyrebug gave us a heads up. I have thought before that it is surprising that more manufacturers don't have reps on these forums...SBI is a big company, you'd think some employee would be hangin around here, even if it is just for his own kicks.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Dave, from the pic you were getting flue gas in the plenum, you can see the stains. You are right about the negative in the chimney, but when the fan is not on and its a windy day, sometimes the chimney is a positive. I have seen powered exhaust blow carbon monoxide in the house on a windy day. What you found was a serious danger. Also from the side pics I see why the front of the unit is so hot. Do you see the vertical rails used to keep the sides off of the jacket? they are deflecting the air away from the front. If they were at a 35-45 degree angle air would be driven to the front picking up the heat.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> from the pic you were getting flue gas in the plenum, you can see the stains


I seen (see) no evidence of stains...? There is some dust that has accumulated here n there...is that what you are seeing?


STIHLY DAN said:


> Also from the side pics I see why the front of the unit is so hot. Do you see the vertical rails used to keep the sides off of the jacket? they are deflecting the air away from the front. If they were at a 35-45 degree angle air would be driven to the front picking up the heat.


Those don't come out to the air jacket...maybe half way. Those are stiffeners for the firebox wall. I see what you are saying though...I like it. Hmm, it wouldn't be that hard to cut the welds loose n move 'em...maybe add a couple more shorter ones in the corners there just for CYA...great, just keep coming up with more good ideas to try...I got all the time in the world to re-engineer this thing!   (plus my wife loves it when I cut n weld in the basement ) (actually, that part wasn't too bad. I closed the furnace room door, opened the HE cleanout door to get the chimney flowing...that seemed to clear things out pretty quick...no smoke (smell!) in the house)


----------



## Builderml

I don't think that moving those side rails will help much with the air flow. To me it looks like the air from the blower goes from the bottom up. If the air from the blower went from back to front I would say yes the rails at an angle would help. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Craig9702

ok.......ive asked this question a few times and have kinda gotten multiple answers, and there were some people that wanted to see pictures, so i finally got around to it.........to start from scratch here is my problem. I purchased a drolet tundra to replace a old US stove add on furnace i had when i purchased my new house. the old one was in pretty bad shape so i decided to replace it. I hooked the drolet up exaclty the way the old furnace was hooked up. my problem is........ The drolet just doesent seem to have the grunt to heat the house. I know i have multiple problems with the way it is hooked up, and my question is......are these things that could REALLY change the heat output of this furnace. The problems are I have a 8"x11" clay tile flue. so ive heard, that can pull excess heat ( draft ) out of the furnace? Also I do not have the cold air returned ducted to the furnace......in which i would, but my A-coil on top of my plenum on my gas furnace prohibits me from putting a backdraft damper in because of clearance issues. and also i do not have a barometric damper installed, because of the height on where my stove pipe enters the chimney there isnt enuf height to install one. the main issue i notice is.....when i get the furnace up to temp, which is 400F on the front of the heat exchanger door with a magnetic thermometor. as soon as i shut the damper the stove cools within about 15-20 minutes as to where the two ducts coming out of the top are pretty much cool to the touch....and my secondaries are still burning?.............ok cant wait for the criticism......lets hear it


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## Builderml

Craig, I see no hope for your setup.
Joking aside, looks like in that 2' straight run you should be able to install a barametric damper. To much draft will pull the heat out of the unit to fast for it to transfer in the heat exchanger. I would start with that first pretty easy to do. Caution on any advice from Brenn I think he is on the verge of installing a turbo unit on his exhaust along with a super charger on the intake side.


----------



## brenndatomu

Hi Craig. 


Craig9702 said:


> The drolet just doesent seem to have the grunt to heat the house


They don't have the raw firepower of the old smoke dragons, it's more like slow n steady wins the race. How much house you heatin?


Craig9702 said:


> The problems are I have a 8"x11" clay tile flue. so ive heard, that can pull excess heat ( draft ) out of the furnace?


That is very likely an issue. That is almost 3 times the size flue that is called for. Once the intake damper closes and the firebox goes into "cruise" ( the hottest part of the burn) there is not enough heat being wasted up the chimney to keep draft going strong (-0.04" WC minimum) and that makes the fire die down. If you have a manometer it is easy to check this. If you don't have one, let me know, I can hook you up.


Craig9702 said:


> my A-coil on top of my plenum on my gas furnace prohibits me from putting a backdraft damper in


Gotta prevent backdraft. If nothing else, slide a piece of cardboard in next to the filter on the gas furnace (shut the power off) this will act as a poor mans backdraft damper temporarily.


Craig9702 said:


> i do not have a barometric damper installed, because of the height on where my stove pipe enters the chimney there isnt enuf height to install one


You may not need one. A manometer would tell you for sure. You may be able to get by with a key damper (SBI says not to do this) but you would need a manometer to set and monitor setting the damper on each load.
You have plenty of room there for a baro by the way.


Craig9702 said:


> as soon as i shut the damper the stove cools within about 15-20 minutes as to where the two ducts coming out of the top are pretty much cool to the touch


How's the wood you are burning.? These things like really dry wood, much more so than your old unit


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Caution on any advice from Brenn I think he is on the verge of installing a turbo unit on his exhaust along with a super charger on the intake side.


Hey!...wait a minute...hmmm....


----------



## laynes69

Your 8x11 chimney will hurt performance. While you think the draft is greater, it's the opposite. The gasses cool too much and in return, draft slows. Judging from the look of your chimney, your temps are low enough to condense out of the cleanout on the chimney. When your damper is open, the fire will burn hot, but when it closes you lose the draft needed to maintain proper operation. Brenn beat me to it. I had the same issue as you the first year. Trust me, proper draft and good wood makes a world of difference. Also having your return hooked up would help.


----------



## Builderml

Sorry I understood it as you have to much draft.


----------



## Craig9702

Builderml said:


> Craig, I see no hope for your setup.
> Joking aside, looks like in that 2' straight run you should be able to install a barametric damper. To much draft will pull the heat out of the unit to fast for it to transfer in the heat exchanger. I would start with that first pretty easy to do. Caution on any advice from Brenn I think he is on the verge of installing a turbo unit on his exhaust along with a super charger on the intake side.



I didnt know you could install them horizontally?


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Sorry I understood it as you have to much draft.


When the furnace is on "high fire" it could be too high, as @laynes69 explained so well, it dies off after the damper closes, and then you get condensation (and a mess) too


----------



## brenndatomu

Craig9702 said:


> I didnt know you could install them horizontally?


Yup.
Here is a diagram out of my Yukon manual (which is straight off the Fields baro website) of where (how) you can put them in
https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/baro-png.155295/


----------



## Craig9702

brenndatomu said:


> Hi Craig.
> 
> They don't have the raw firepower of the old smoke dragons, it's more like slow n steady wins the race. How much house you heatin?
> 
> That is very likely an issue. That is almost 3 times the size flue that is called for. Once the intake damper closes and the firebox goes into "cruise" ( the hottest part of the burn) there is not enough heat being wasted up the chimney to keep draft going strong (-0.04" WC minimum) and that makes the fire die down. If you have a manometer it is easy to check this. If you don't have one, let me know, I can hook you up.
> 
> Gotta prevent backdraft. If nothing else, slide a piece of cardboard in next to the filter on the gas furnace (shut the power off) this will act as a poor mans backdraft damper temporarily.
> 
> You may not need one. A manometer would tell you for sure. You may be able to get by with a key damper (SBI says not to do this) but you would need a manometer to set and monitor setting the damper on each load.
> You have plenty of room there for a baro by the way.
> 
> How's the wood you are burning.? These things like really dry wood, much more so than your old unit



the wood im burning is VERY dry red oak........how much for a manometor?


----------



## brenndatomu

Craig9702 said:


> the wood im burning is VERY dry red oak........how much for a manometor?


$35 shipped. Brand new in the box Dwyer Mark II model 25...the same one most of us wood furnace guys use


----------



## Craig9702

brenndatomu said:


> $35 shipped. Brand new in the box Dwyer Mark II model 25...the same one most of us wood furnace guys use



does it come with everything to hook it up to the pipe?


----------



## brenndatomu

Craig9702 said:


> does it come with everything to hook it up to the pipe?


Yes and no. I'll shoot you a PM about it...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

No, and the numberses are backwards.  You may not need baro cause you probably have low draft. Why are you not going strait into the supply? Also there is plenty of room to tie into the return plenum.


----------



## Craig9702

STIHLY DAN said:


> No, and the numberses are backwards.  You may not need baro cause you probably have low draft. Why are you not going strait into the supply? Also there is plenty of room to tie into the return plenum.


What do you mean by going strait into the supply.....I need all the advice I can get.....after this winter I'm going to do everything in my power to get this thing running effeciently as possible


----------



## KARB2014

Craig9702 said:


> What do you mean by going strait into the supply.....I need all the advice I can get.....after this winter I'm going to do everything in my power to get this thing running effeciently as possible


Also if you have no backdraft damper you are losing a lot of efficiency. From what I can see in your pictures you are blowing not only through the supply side but also back down through the A/C coil, gas furnace, and through the cold air returns. I would be looking to find a way to stop the back flow. Even if you were to build one in the rectangle main trunk before the 8" supply from the tundra. You are also going to have to line that chimney. I cannot believe there just isn't liquid pouring out of that clean out. Have you inspected the inside of your chimney yet?


----------



## Builderml

Craig9702 said:


> What do you mean by going strait into the supply.....I need all the advice I can get.....after this winter I'm going to do everything in my power to get this thing running effeciently as possible


Your tundra is located directly under your supply trunk. Your two supplies from the tundra should go straight up into the trunk of your gas furnace yet you came up with the 2-8" runs and elbowed over for some reason. Also install a damper in each of the two supplies from the tundra.


----------



## brenndatomu

So I take a pass through Drolets website last nite...I see the Tundra II and the Heatmax II is still there, no info on them though. (we discussed these back on page 20 of this thread in case y'all need to catch up) So I emailed them to ask "what up?" with these things. Here is their response:

"The Tundra II and Heatmax II are the new versions for 2016.  We will have stock in March.  They come with a hot air plenum like the bigger version (Heatpro).  The hot air plenum is not an option because it comes with the unit and it cannot be retrofitted to the Heatmax and Tundra with an 8’’ outlet."

So apparently, a plenum is the way to go after all. The one thing that is curious is that they have downgraded the "capacity" from 2500 sq ft (yeah right) to 2000. But I would say they over promised to begin with so...


----------



## laynes69

Finally.....don't know why it didn't have a plenum to begin with. With the larger opening, it should be capable of heating a larger area. If the heating demand is satisfied quicker, that's less the unit will have to run wide open.


----------



## brenndatomu

I see my link from back on page 20 doesn't work anymore, and this Tundra II stuff is kinda hard to find on their site so I did a screen shot of a side x side comparison...this is about as much info as there is on their site right now.


----------



## Smoke Signals

Builderml said:


> Your tundra is located directly under your supply trunk. Your two supplies from the tundra should go straight up into the trunk of your gas furnace yet you came up with the 2-8" runs and elbowed over for some reason. Also install a damper in each of the two supplies from the tundra.



I thought maybe this was done to meet the clearance requirements but after taking another look at the pic it appears that there is plenty of clearance above the main trunk line so there is no reason not to take the supplys straight up (or more straight up) into the trunk and do away with those long 8" horizontal runs. 


As other have said check your draft and most likley line the chimney. Also if you could some how get rid of that black 90 coming rite off the back of the furnace it would help your draft (think rotating the furnace 90 deg). You could use a couple of 45's or better yet run the pipe straight from the back of the furnace into the chimney.

Hope this helps,


----------



## Craig9702

As far as a chimney liner goes......I see they make flexible ones, and ridgid ones......and they are both ok for wood burning....anyone has any experience with these?


----------



## brenndatomu

Both are good. I have two flex liners, 1 two ply (don't buy this) with insulation wrap from chimney liner depot, and 1 "pre-insulated" liner from a company that sold out to someone else. I wouldn't get too hung up on all the different choices out there on liners. Just get a SS liner rated for wood use and roll with it. If your chimney runs through the house most of the way you can probably get away with non insulated. If it runs through un heated space for very far at all I'd insulated the liner if you have a large enough flue to fit it in. (and you should at 8x11)
Does the gas furnace vent to this same flue?


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> I see my link from back on page 20 doesn't work anymore, and this Tundra II stuff is kinda hard to find on their site so I did a screen shot of a side x side comparison...this is about as much info as there is on their site right now.
> View attachment 172323


Looking at the picture of the "new" tundra II
it's looks like 8- 5" supplies. I don't think they have any coming off the back but I could be wrong. So lets see why they derated the capacity. At .2 static pressure a 5" supply gives you roughly 95 cfm. Total of 8 you get roughly 760 total cfm. The old tundra with 2-8" supplies at .2 static pressure you get roughly 660 cfm each for a total of 1320 cfm.
That's one hell of a difference. Almost half the total cfm as before. Not sure how they are coming up with anything now. How in the world will this help with cracking or over heating if you reduce the airflow to nearly half of what it was. Can't wait to see the results of that cluster ****.


----------



## sloeffle

@Builderml Can you explain duct pressures and what they mean for us non HVAC folks ? Or can you point me to a web site that has information about them.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> it's looks like 8- 5" supplies. I don't think they have any coming off the back but I could be wrong


I bet that is the same plenum that is on the Heatpro, even if not, I just don't see them putting ducts on two corners only. I'm betting that there is a matching set of connections on the opposite sides, just like the HP...total of 10 possible connections.


----------



## Craig9702

brenndatomu said:


> Both are good. I have two flex liners, 1 two ply (don't buy this) with insulation wrap from chimney liner depot, and 1 "pre-insulated" liner from a company that sold out to someone else. I wouldn't get too hung up on all the different choices out there on liners. Just get a SS liner rated for wood use and roll with it. If your chimney runs through the house most of the way you can probably get away with non insulated. If it runs through un heated space for very far at all I'd insulated the liner if you have a large enough flue to fit it in. (and you should at 8x11)
> Does the gas furnace vent to this same flue?



No the gas furnace vents outside with pvc.....as far as the liners go I heard the ridgid ones have a smooth wall and get much less creosote build up....do you know if there is any truth behind this?........also based on my pictures if I install a liner and use the existing hole in my chimney to feed the T-connection through from the liner.......how do I access the cleanout in the bottom of the T?


----------



## Builderml

sloeffle said:


> @Builderml Can you explain duct pressures and what they mean for us non HVAC folks ? Or can you point me to a web site that has information about them.


To be honest no for both questions. I looked around a ton for a website that had the info I was looking for and never found it. I ended up talking with a supply house I deal with who also deals with HVAC and he had the "slide scale" that gave me the info I needed. I also spoke with my HVAC sub about what I was doing and he provided me with info also. So in short when it comes to the HVAC I can't really help. What I can do is help with the duct design on a tundra seeing how I do have the duct numbers starting from 4" to 8" round. If you need those just let me know.
I will add that the higher the static pressure the faster the air moves causing a louder system. Kinda like blowing into a big pipe, more room for air to move around within that pipe, less drag. Now blow that same amount of air in a small pipe air travels faster thru the pipe but causes more friction within the pipe walls causing it to be louder.


----------



## sloeffle

Did some Googling and found a pretty good article that talks about static pressure in your duct work. From what I read on this article and some others, you do not want more than .50 inches wc added together on your supply and plenum sides.

Also found a residental duct sizing guide. I do find it interesting that round ducts are able to push the same amount of air than a square or rectangular duct with more square inches.


----------



## Builderml

sloeffle said:


> Did some Googling and found a pretty good article that talks about static pressure in your duct work. From what I read on this article and some others, you do not want more than .50 inches wc added together on your supply and plenum sides.
> 
> Also found a residental duct sizing guide. I do find it interesting that round ducts are able to push the same amount of air than a square or rectangular duct with more square inches.


Yes round flows better, most residential systems are designed at .1 static pressure.


----------



## brenndatomu

Craig9702 said:


> I heard the ridgid ones have a smooth wall and get much less creosote build up....do you know if there is any truth behind this?


Dunno about the rigid first hand, but I can tell you that the flex liners will expand and contract with temp changes and pop creosote off.


Craig9702 said:


> also based on my pictures if I install a liner and use the existing hole in my chimney to feed the T-connection through from the liner.......how do I access the cleanout in the bottom of the T?


What I did was to have them crimp the bottom of the tee so I could put a leg on it down to the cleanout. I have a cap on the bottom that I pull for cleaning...I have a brick under the cap to hold it up onto the liner leg


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> After I finished I decided to pull the side air jacket panels off to look around again in preparation for designing a top to install a plenum on. So I'm lookin all around the HEs to figure out how the air flows through this thing and I notice something...a crack!



Hey Brenn,

Man, what a disappointing find!

How difficult is it to pull the sides off?  Sometimes when my damper closes and secondaries are at full blast, I, too, get a smokey smell for a few minutes.  But that's the only circumstance.  And it doesn't smell exactly like smoke, more like the pungent curing paint.  At least that's what I've been telling myself, since it only happens a short while after the damper closes, then goes away.  Some kind of theory that that's the hottest moment the furnace experiences.  A couple weeks ago I pulled the cap off the front outlet and put a trouble light over it but couldn't see any light into the HX box.  Maybe I need to look further.  Just what I need, another thing to do around here...


----------



## KARB2014

My next question is who is going to be the first one to take the plunge and make a plenum? I have talked myself into it I just don't have the funds right now. I would think I would have to get a honeywell fan/limit controller? Or does anybody have any other ideas to control everything? Possibly the controls @brenndatomu use and just use the snap disc for the blower?


----------



## Builderml

And the plot thickens. So today i stopped by a good friend of mines house. He too has a Drolet wood stove not a furnace. As we were talking i asked him for a flashlight. You guessed it i started looking around. Took about 2 seconds before i found the cracks on the front face. This will be his 3rd year using the stove so i have no idea when they happened. Wait a minute aren't these tundras cracking because us dumb asses don't have them installed right????
So let me guess he doesn't have his wood stove installed correctly. Last  i checked he had his stove venting out the chimney. I found this interesting so i figured i would mention it here. Here are some pictures. 2 cracks  above the door on each side. You can see Drolet etched in the glass on the lower left hand corner.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> And the plot thickens. So today i stopped by a good friend of mines house. He too has a Drolet wood stove not a furnace. As we were talking i asked him for a flashlight. You guessed it i started looking around. Took about 2 seconds before i found the cracks on the front face. This will be his 3rd year using the stove so i have no idea when they happened. Wait a minute aren't these tundras cracking because us dumb asses don't have them installed right????
> So let me guess he doesn't have his wood stove installed correctly. Last  i checked he had his stove venting out the chimney. I found this interesting so i figured i would mention it here. Here are some pictures. 2 cracks  above the door on each side. You can see Drolet etched in the glass on the lower left hand corner.
> View attachment 172479
> View attachment 172481
> View attachment 172477


Man, you just developing a real bad "crack" habit here lately!


----------



## TheBigIron

brenndatomu said:


> I see my link from back on page 20 doesn't work anymore, and this Tundra II stuff is kinda hard to find on their site so I did a screen shot of a side x side comparison...this is about as much info as there is on their site right now.
> View attachment 172323


Brenn would you recommend a plenum setup on the Tundra??


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Man, you just developing a real bad "crack" habit here lately!


Now that I found the good stuff I just have to look for more.


----------



## brenndatomu

The46Zone said:


> Brenn would you recommend a plenum setup on the Tundra??


I dunno for sure yet, I suspect it is the way to go, and a bunch of these guys think so too. I think it makes sense, most of the better (and higher output) furnaces go that way, gotta be a reason for it.


KARB2014 said:


> My next question is who is going to be the first one to take the plunge and make a plenum?


Well, I have a plenum that will work, I thought I was gonna hafta but a piece of scrap sheet metal from work to fab the new furnace top from, but then I realized that I still have the air jacket panels from my old coal-converted-to-oil furnace that I tore outta here a few years back. Perfect for making a top to attach a plenum to. At this point that will be my next project, just have to wait until this cold snap blows by so I can let Tundra go cold for a day or two...and when I actually have the time to do it.
I'm planning on using the same snap switch to run the blower, but if I don't like it I have a Honeywell fan/limit switch laying around here somewheres...


----------



## Builderml

KARB2014 said:


> My next question is who is going to be the first one to take the plunge and make a plenum? I have talked myself into it I just don't have the funds right now. I would think I would have to get a honeywell fan/limit controller? Or does anybody have any other ideas to control everything? Possibly the controls @brenndatomu use and just use the snap disc for the blower?


Depending on how this whole warranty thing works out that will determine what I do next. As far as a plenum goes I think I would just make something U shaped. I would cut out the two middle holes up to the front of the front hole and just make a box to cover that. Tough to explain but that would leave about 3" of the top on the sides and about 1" up front.  I think I should be able to leave the existing fan limit controls right in place. After that I would just reinstall my 2-8" take offs on top of that new box. What say you?


----------



## DoubleB

KARB2014 said:


> who is going to be the first one to take the plunge and make a plenum?



Pretty sure @Wisneaky was the first Tundra to already do that a year ago.  I'm guessing the pictures are around page 8-12 of this thread, but I'll let someone else look up exactly where.

I can see the plenum thing going either way.  Maybe it will help, since it's more open and since others seem to like it.

However, I can think of some reasons that it might not help.  First, and by now least importantly, is because SBI has suggested it's a bad idea.  They have maintained in emails with me and others here that using 4 of the existing 8" outlets is counterproductive and results in poorer heat distribution.  It might sound counterproductive, but there are some heat exchanger designs in which this is true.  If you let a heat exchanger breathe too freely, most of the airflow may flow through only one spot, leaving hot spots.  If you partially restrict all of the regions of the heat exchanger, you actually can limit excessive air through some regions such that it flows through the other regions, overall resulting in more heat transferred and less airflow required.

Another reason it might not help is because, to some extent the air jacket already forms a plenum, so I'm not sure how much it will help to raise the height of that plenum.  All in all, I think it would, because the HX tubes are pretty close to the existing top.

Anyways, I look forward to hearing more results of raising the existing plenum height, but it's not currently worth the effort for me.


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Pretty sure @Wisneaky was the first Tundra to already do that a year ago.  I'm guessing the pictures are around page 8-12 of this thread, but I'll let someone else look up exactly where.
> 
> I can see the plenum thing going either way.  Maybe it will help, since it's more open and since others seem to like it.
> 
> However, I can think of some reasons that it might not help.  First, and by now least importantly, is because SBI has suggested it's a bad idea.  They have maintained in emails with me and others here that using 4 of the existing 8" outlets is counterproductive and results in poorer heat distribution.  It might sound counterproductive, but there are some heat exchanger designs in which this is true.  If you let a heat exchanger breathe too freely, most of the airflow may flow through only one spot, leaving hot spots.  If you partially restrict all of the regions of the heat exchanger, you actually can limit excessive air through some regions such that it flows through the other regions, overall resulting in more heat transferred and less airflow required.
> 
> Another reason it might not help is because, to some extent the air jacket already forms a plenum, so I'm not sure how much it will help to raise the height of that plenum.  All in all, I think it would, because the HX tubes are pretty close to the existing top.
> 
> Anyways, I look forward to hearing more results of raising the existing plenum height, but it's not currently worth the effort for me.


Well said. That's why I was thinking of opening up the cabinet top some but still only using the 2-8" take offs. The way I see it, the tundra the way it is designed now does have a hot spot and that is without a doubt the front. I don't think a complete removal of the top would work. I could be wrong don't know until you try I guess. I also don't like a flat top plenum so if I was to do it I would taper the sides towards the take offs.


----------



## brenndatomu

Caddy has a 24" x 24" hole in the top with a plenum sittin on it...seems to work pretty well. To look down inside without the plenum on top, it looks almost identical to the Tundra other than the cabinet insulation


DoubleB said:


> How difficult is it to pull the sides off?


Not bad. I didn't even have to disconnect the ducts. Just take out all the screws around the edges of the sides and the top of the back panel. Lift the back of the top up enough to slide it forward so the front can be lifted off its "clip" Once the top is loose the top of the side panels can be popped out and the whole panel slides forward. Repeat on the other side, BAM, nekked Tundra. Takes about 10 minutes. When you go to put things back together have a box of #10 (IIRC) washers handy to put on any screws that won't tighten (act stripped) for some reason the screw threads don't go the whole way to the top...screwy!


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> So I take a pass through Drolets website last nite...I see the Tundra II and the Heatmax II is still there, no info on them though. (we discussed these back on page 20 of this thread in case y'all need to catch up) So I emailed them to ask "what up?" with these things. Here is their response:
> 
> "The Tundra II and Heatmax II are the new versions for 2016.  We will have stock in March.  They come with a hot air plenum like the bigger version (Heatpro).  The hot air plenum is not an option because it comes with the unit and it cannot be retrofitted to the Heatmax and Tundra with an 8’’ outlet."
> 
> So apparently, a plenum is the way to go after all. The one thing that is curious is that they have downgraded the "capacity" from 2500 sq ft (yeah right) to 2000. But I would say they over promised to begin with so...


So I responded to SBIs email to me (^ ^ ^) yesterday with these questions...(v v v)

OK, thanks. That brings up another question. I see the Tundra II is only rated to heat 2000 sq ft. VS the original Tundra was rated up to 2500 sq ft. I would think that the Tundra II with the plenum and (10) 6" duct connections would have greater output than the Tundra with only (2) 8" outlets. Is this not the case? 
Or was the original Tundra just over rated and the new Tundra rated more conservatively?
So if you have stock in March then I could order one through Menards? Will the price be the same as Tundra, or a little more?
Thanks again! 

Here is their response today...very interesting!

The two products are basically the same (Tundra and Tundra II).  Same blower.  The main difference is that the Tundra II will have the hot air plenum supplied and will now come with electronics that vary the blower speed based on plenum temperature instead of using a fixed blower speed.  Those two things add cost to the unit, but they are good features.  

Menards still has the Tundra and depending on their stock level, they may be on the Tundra II in September only. The advantage is that the Tundra (actual stock at Menards) is cheaper.

Yes, we used to rate it for 2,500 sq.ft.  I don’t think this was “overrated”, but we have realized that people tend to stretch the capacity of those heaters... 2,500 sq.ft. soon becomes 3,500 and next, they crack the firebox by using the product as an incinerator in a garage.  So we have preferred to use a more conservative square footage and we have launched the Heatpro, which is almost double the size.  I believe Menards has stock of the Heatpro right now, or will have it soon.  This can be a good option.

The Heatro is also available online at www.myfireplaceoducts.com 

I believe My Fireplace Products will have a deal at 300$ off next month, so you may want to check-out their web site in February.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Here is their response today...very interesting!



Interesting indeed!  I give them credit, they are answering your questions, appearing to be helpful, etc.  And the auto-speed blower might be nice (but not necessary).  But mostly all it would take for me to be impressed is just some way to know that they acknowledge they have a cracking problem and can demonstrate that it's fixed.  Stop belittling operators as the source of the cracking.  About the only person that hasn't cracked yet that I can think of is @3fordasho , all because he figured out how to properly design and modify the furnace before even his first fire.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Interesting indeed!


Kinda sounds like a mini Heatpro...ehh?


DoubleB said:


> the auto-speed blower might be nice (but not necessary)


I think it may help with total heat output quite a bit. I was actually considering doing this myself. I'm not using the second alarm (low temp) part of my controller, pretty easy to set up the second controller "alarm" to fire a relay at a certain plenum temp..to switch from med/high speed to low speed...or whatever speed combo you want.
Temp controller running the intake damper, and the blower...sweet! 
EDIT: Nevermind, I will need a second controller and TC to pull this off...only one input on the controller...DARN IT, another $20 in the hole!


----------



## laynes69

I tell you what....They come out with a variable speed blower controller..I'm getting it.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> I tell you what....They come out with a variable speed blower controller..I'm getting it.


Sounds like you better get your wallet warmed up! I bet it is the same one on Heatpro...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Kinda sounds like a mini Heatpro...ehh?
> 
> I think it may help with total heat output quite a bit. I was actually considering doing this myself. I'm not using the second alarm (low temp) part of my controller, pretty easy to set up the second controller "alarm" to fire a relay at a certain plenum temp..to switch from med/high speed to low speed...or whatever speed combo you want.
> Temp controller running the intake damper, and the blower...sweet!
> EDIT: Nevermind, I will need a second controller and TC to pull this off...only one input on the controller...DARN IT, another $20 in the hole!



You can do this with a low ambient kit at a hvac supply house. They are used to ramp up and down condenser fans. The hotter it gets the faster it ramps, and visa versa. 40 bucks or less.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> You can do this with a low ambient kit at a hvac supply house. They are used to ramp up and down condenser fans. The hotter it gets the faster it ramps, and visa versa. 40 bucks or less.


This would work with a 4 spd blower like Tundras? Or is it for a DC motor?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> This would work with a 4 spd blower like Tundras? Or is it for a DC motor?



Its for an ac motor. It wont change fan speeds, you would put yours on high and it would modulate that from 25% or so to full speed. If you had a ball bearing motor not a sleeve bearing it would modulate all the way down.


----------



## Builderml

I am all over the variable speed blower. I think it too would help with heat out put. Brenn mind sending SBI an email if they are going to come out with a kit that existing tundra owners could install?


----------



## Builderml

So after visiting the drolet website today I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the change in the warranty? Now the only things covered by the lifetime warranty are the "welds" of the combustion chamber and the cast iron door. That's a big difference from the warranty language that is listed on the owners manual that came with my unit.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Its for an ac motor. It wont change fan speeds, you would put yours on high and it would modulate that from 25% or so to full speed. If you had a ball bearing motor not a sleeve bearing it would modulate all the way down.


Boy, that would be sweet. I looked around a little bit and didn't find anything that seemed to be quite what you describe. Have a link or a suggestion as to where to look?


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> So after visiting the drolet website today I was wondering if anyone else has noticed the change in the warranty? Now the only things covered by the lifetime warranty are the "welds" of the combustion chamber and the cast iron door. That's a big difference from the warranty language that is listed on the owners manual that came with my unit.


Hmmm, some back pedalin goin on up in here...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Dave its an ICM low ambient controller. you can see youtube vids of it. the only thing you would need to do is replace the resister With one that would put you in your temp ranges. Although the one that comes with it may be close enough.


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, I finally figured out how to get some rockin heat outta this thing...just prop your damper open and walk away!
Damper stuck open after I re-loaded after work...yeah...154* duct temp! Wah-hoo! I actually felt heat coming out my registers, for a minute there I thought someone had fired the Yukon or something


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> Now the only things covered by the lifetime warranty are the "welds" of the combustion chamber and the cast iron door.



Is that for the Tundra only, or did you notice for all Drolet models?  Either way, a weaker warranty is not the way to fix problems or improve your reputation and sales.  I suppose in my case, my largest crack at the bottom of the loading door also pulled the weld off of the door flange, so maybe I still would have been covered, but not for much.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Damper stuck open after I re-loaded after work...yeah...154* duct temp!



Now that sounds more like it!  How long did it take you to reach 154?  I can get that after about 20 minutes open on the damper, right about the time the wood is charred enough to sustain secondaries.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> How long did it take you to reach 154?


Oh man, I dunno. 20 minutes, half an hour? I can't imagine SBI designs these things to run that hot...I wasn't paying any attention to my temp monitor...and the alarm is shut off I guess...I started smelling something hot, grabbed the temp monitor...154! Crap! I ran down to see what the?! I seen that my temp controller was over-riding the tstat, but the damper was still open...it dropped shut as soon as I touched it. Better turn my alarm back on...that could have been "not too cool" (literally) if it did that over night.


brenndatomu said:


> we have realized that people tend to stretch the capacity of those heaters... 2,500 sq.ft. soon becomes 3,500 and next, they crack the firebox by using the product as an incinerator in a garage


If y'all are running yours that hard normally...maybe SBI has a point ^ ^ ^ ?


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Is that for the Tundra only, or did you notice for all Drolet models?  Either way, a weaker warranty is not the way to fix problems or improve your reputation and sales.  I suppose in my case, my largest crack at the bottom of the loading door also pulled the weld off of the door flange, so maybe I still would have been covered, but not for much.


I only looked at the Tundra model I was looking for info on the Tundra ll but didn't even see it listed on the site.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I only looked at the Tundra model I was looking for info on the Tundra ll but didn't even see it listed on the site.


The only place I seen it was the when I did the "compare" the way I posted the screen shot a couple pages back. That's why I emailed them to see what up


----------



## Builderml

Also looking at the heatpro model it had me laughing. Looks like all they did was copy and paste from the tundra manual with some add ons. When you look at the burn time table it has the max load at 3.0 cuft which is the same as the Tundra. Good thing SBI double checks things, not like the owners manual is all that important.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> If y'all are running yours that hard normally...maybe SBI has a point ^ ^ ^ ?



I guess I don't think 154F is all that hard when the furnace is getting up to temp.  If it takes me 20 minutes to reach 154F, then that load took 17 minutes to get to the point where the secondaries could sustain.  The next load may be a colder start that needs 20-30 minutes to get temps for sustaining secondaries.  And the next load with lots of coals only needs 10 minutes.  As a new load gets going, my firebox temp and wood temp/char lag behind the hot air temps, and there really is not much time difference between rapidly rising air temps, and a firebox that's trying to catch up enough in temperature.  That's just the way my furnace seems to behave.  

So if SBI expects users to know the exact minute between 10-30 that the damper must close to avoid "stretching the capacity of those heaters", then I don't think they did their job.  Especially when the manual suggests relying on a thermostat to open the damper for more heat without any regard for register temps or user oversight.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I guess I don't think 154F is all that hard when the furnace is getting up to temp


Just so we are on the same page, this was with the blower running...
I agree that doesn't seem like very hot normally, heck my Yukon doesn't even start the blower 'til 160*, but the front of the furnace seems so freakin hot on the Tundra at 154* duct temp. Just seemed "overfired" to me. 
I need to monitor the top of the firebox. I know that on stoves it is pretty universally accepted that 700*(ish) stove top temp is considered toward the top end of the temp range where they should be run normally. I would bet my Tundra was way over that today.


DoubleB said:


> So if SBI expects users to know the exact minute between 10-30 that the damper must close to avoid "stretching the capacity of those heaters", then I don't think they did their job. Especially when the manual suggests relying on a thermostat to open the damper for more heat without any regard for register temps or user oversight.


Right, I agree. It would be nice if they at least provided you with some direction on whats normal, whats not. I mean they don't even come with a tstat, just a "on/off" switch...hope nobody ever forgets to shut that off! Oh, wait, that's what the high limit switch is for...can't overfire 'em cause they have a "idiot proof" limit switch...hmm, apparently not?


----------



## trx250r87

Has anyone ever considered a horizontal damper that would cover some or all of the 3 square holes behind the front damper door? It seems like this could fine tune the damper rather than just full open or full close. 
I'm picturing a horizontal sliding plate with holes that would line up with existing holes. 

Maybe it's just the whisky talking....


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Just so we are on the same page, this was with the blower running...


Yep, same page.



brenndatomu said:


> I know that on stoves it is pretty universally accepted that 700*(ish) stove top temp is considered toward the top end of the temp range where they should be run normally.



I still train my IR thermometer on different parts of the front face of the Tundra sometimes.  Hottest parts I've found is the top corners of the loading door.  I used to easily get >600F with the damper wide open while getting up to temp.  And then, I'd get 750F or hotter with the secondaries cruising.  Now, with my non-insulating firebrick mod, the 750F went down to about 600-650.



brenndatomu said:


> just a "on/off" switch...hope nobody ever forgets to shut that off!



No kidding!    I have once or twice.  Another reason I'm glad to have added overtemp protection.  In fact, just this morning before I left for work I loaded a full load, set timer to 20 minutes, put on my coat, and went to the basement to double-check that I could leave.  Sure enough I had forgotten to turn off the damper switch from having burned down coals...


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> Has anyone ever considered a horizontal damper that would cover some or all of the 3 square holes behind the front damper door? It seems like this could fine tune the damper rather than just full open or full close.
> I'm picturing a horizontal sliding plate with holes that would line up with existing holes.
> 
> Maybe it's just the whisky talking....


I kinda tuned mine with aluminum high temp tape over the holes...I went too far, ended up going back to the same size holes that they put on them now...or the resrictor kit that they have...


----------



## trx250r87

brenndatomu said:


> I kinda tuned mine with aluminum high temp tape over the holes...I went too far, ended up going back to the same size holes that they put on them now...or the resrictor kit that they have...


That would work in a perfect world but it seems like nothing is consistent with this furnace. Wood type, moisture content, outside air temp, draft, wind speed all have an effect on how my furnace acts. I think I have a female model?


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu said:


> Boy, that would be sweet. I looked around a little bit and didn't find anything that seemed to be quite what you describe. Have a link or a suggestion as to where to look?



I looked at a unit called Fan Handler before I put my speed controller together. It's a VFD. I didn't spend to much time checking it out but it may work. Kind of pricey if I recall plus I don't really like the idea of having a VFD running in my house.


----------



## maple1

What is the concern with a VFD in the house?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Smoke Signals said:


> I don't really like the idea of having a VFD running in my house.



Why? VFD's are awesome, But very pricey.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Maple beat me to it...


----------



## Smoke Signals

maple1 said:


> What is the concern with a VFD in the house?



I just don't like the idea of all that dirty power, interference and noise.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

That was 10 years ago.


----------



## brenndatomu

Smoke Signals said:


> I just don't like the idea of all that dirty power, interference and noise.


We have VFDs all over at work..tons of instrumentation and sensors...no interference or "dirty power" issues


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu said:


> We have VFDs all over at work..tons of instrumentation and sensors...no interference or "dirty power" issues



I recently had to change a couple of old ones out at work because of interference and I will have to admit that the new ones do seem to be better.


----------



## Smoke Signals

I want to thank all who have contributed to the information on how to build the damper controller. I put one together the other day and have to say it really adds to the controlability of the Tundra.


----------



## KARB2014

Alright gentlemen here is my go with a plenum. I just lasered it out of 0.029 304L (I had a few pieces laying around) I will try to get around to installing it within the next few days. The reason for the front being angled is because my cold air return is above my Tundra. I could have made it straight up but I figured with it being angled it would help with air flow. For the fan snap disc and high limit just for now I'm going to have them inside the plenum in the same location, I will just make a simple bracket for them to mount to and to have the wires protected from direct heat.


----------



## 3fordasho

KARB2014 said:


> Alright gentlemen here is my go with a plenum. I just lasered it out of 0.029 304L (I had a few pieces laying around) I will try to get around to installing it within the next few days. The reason for the front being angled is because my cold air return is above my Tundra. I could have made it straight up but I figured with it being angled it would help with air flow. For the fan snap disc and high limit just for now I'm going to have them inside the plenum in the same location, I will just make a simple bracket for them to mount to and to have the wires protected from direct heat.




I like it, did you draw that up in Solidworks?


----------



## KARB2014

3fordasho said:


> I like it, did you draw that up in Solidworks?


Thank You. Yes Sir solidworks.


----------



## 3fordasho

KARB2014 said:


> Thank You. Yes Sir solidworks.



I thought that title block looked familiar ;-)   How much of the factory sheet metal are you going to open up on the top?
My thought would be open up mostly towards the front directly above the crossover that connects the smaller side HE tubes to the large center tube or maybe everything under the plenum?


----------



## KARB2014

I plan on removing the entire factory top. If this doesn't work I want to be able to easily go back. I'm going to use the factory screw holes to attach the new plenum. I'm curious as to if this causes me to get more build up in the heat exchangers. I have a pretty good feel for how they look after a month so I will be keeping an eye on them. I will more than likely try this with out the turb being in there first. I'm shooting for this all happening today after work as I'm letting it burn out today because I want to run the sooteater up the chimney today(I'm a month late because of the warm start to the season).


----------



## 3fordasho

STIHLY DAN said:


> Dave its an ICM low ambient controller. you can see youtube vids of it. the only thing you would need to do is replace the resister With one that would put you in your temp ranges. Although the one that comes with it may be close enough.



 Hmm, interesting.  Looks like the ICM325HN or 326HN could work.  Where can I find for $40?  best internet price is just under $100...

For $40 I want to play


----------



## STIHLY DAN

3fordasho said:


> Hmm, interesting.  Looks like the ICM325HN or 326HN could work.  Where can I find for $40?  best internet price is just under $100...
> 
> For $40 I want to play


Talk to brenndontomu


----------



## Builderml

I am having crap luck lately. I look up tonight at the baffle up top and its cracked in half.
May be operator error seeing how last night I tried fitting a 6" round in a 4" hole. Good news is I go it in.


----------



## KARB2014

I was able to get the plenum built last night, unfortunately it took all of my spare time to build it. I was really regretting making it out of 0.029 304 stainless. My little break at home did not want to bend it with out persuasion. Sunday should be the day I'm able to set it on top of the Tundra and connected to the duct work.


----------



## brenndatomu

KARB2014 said:


> I was able to get the plenum built last night, unfortunately it took all of my spare time to build it. I was really regretting making it out of 0.029 304 stainless. My little break at home did not want to bend it with out persuasion. Sunday should be the day I'm able to set it on top of the Tundra and connected to the duct work.


You just gonna set it on the existing top...open all the holes up?


----------



## KARB2014

brenndatomu said:


> You just gonna set it on the existing top...open all the holes up?


No I'm going to remove the factory top and mount the plenum to the Tundra.


----------



## Highbeam

KARB2014 said:


> No I'm going to remove the factory top and mount the plenum to the Tundra.



Can't wait to see the pics.


----------



## Builderml

Update on warranty, until things are settled all I will say for now is it looks like I will not be an " owning " member on this particular thread.


----------



## brenndatomu

KARB2014 said:


> making it out of 0.029 304 stainless.





KARB2014 said:


> No I'm going to remove the factory top and mount the plenum to the Tundra.


Sounds a lil pricey.
Will you be putting any deflectors in the back to keep the air from "short circuiting"?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

At least a piece in the back to force the air to the front.


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds a lil pricey.
> Will you be putting any deflectors in the back to keep the air from "short circuiting"?


That's one thing I see on the Caddy, we do not have a deflector at the rear of the furnace. There's a decent gap where the air just seems to bypass the firebox at the back. If one is placed there on the tundra, I'll be curious where the temps come in at.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> That's one thing I see on the Caddy, we do not have a deflector at the rear of the furnace. There's a decent gap where the air just seems to bypass the firebox at the back. If one is placed there on the tundra, I'll be curious where the temps come in at.


The new Caddy I looked at on the showroom floor had a little "wing" under the center HE pipe, behind the firebox


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> The new Caddy I looked at on the showroom floor had a little "wing" under the center HE pipe, behind the firebox


Hmmmm.....I know what I'll be doing!


----------



## DoubleB

KARB2014 said:


> I was really regretting making it out of 0.029 304 stainless.



Curious why you chose stainless?  Maybe it's just what was lying around?  Plain old 26-30 ga galvanized works well for me.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> it looks like I will not be an " owning " member on this particular thread.



Ok I'm dense.  You mean yours is getting warrantied so you are keeping a unit that you don't officially own one anymore, or you are so fed up you are buying something different?  Seen it both ways.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> Hmmmm.....I know what I'll be doing!


Going to look at a new one?


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> Going to look at a new one?


I should. I'm going to put a deflector in the jacket to see if there's a difference. Don't know how much room there is to get in there.


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Ok I'm dense.  You mean yours is getting warrantied so you are keeping a unit that you don't officially own one anymore, or you are so fed up you are buying something different?  Seen it both ways.


Don't think i get to keep it. Now i need to figure out if i leave all you guys behind and go into the really unknown world of the heapro.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Now i need to figure out if i leave all you guys behind and go into the really unknown world of the Tundra II.


Fixed it for ya


----------



## brenndatomu

Hey @Builderml , I emailed SBI again and asked about a "competent person" putting the Tundra II plenum and speed control on a old Tundra...they said "nope, won't work"...I say "wanna bet?!"


----------



## laynes69

Builderml said:


> Don't think i get to keep it. Now i need to figure out if i leave all you guys behind and go into the really unknown world of the heapro.



I'd be on the heatpro like flies on stink. A 5 cuft clean burner with a 1900 cfm modulating blower. Not only would you gain the burntimes, but the overall output. The furnace wouldn't need to work as hard as the Tundra.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> Don't think i get to keep it. Now i need to figure out if i leave all you guys behind and go into the really unknown world of the heapro.



Man, that's even worse, having you pull out your unit.  Even though I don't know how long I'm keeping mine (how long it will last), at least I can replace it on my own timeline.  The heatpro does sound quite intriguing, but at this point personally I'm going to wait and see if something can prove itself.  Otherwise, I'd see if I couldn't try to talk SBI into giving me a discount on a Caddy or Max Caddy, due to all the hassle you've been through.  Sounds legit to me.  Although SBI didn't seem to think so when I asked that last year when I had cracking...


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Hey @Builderml , I emailed SBI again and asked about a "competent person" putting the Tundra II plenum and speed control on a old Tundra...they said "nope, won't work"...I say "wanna bet?!"


I told you you were gonna supercharge yours..  What the heck is up with " nope won't work" isn't that the only real difference. I guess there's won't work either.


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Man, that's even worse, having you pull out your unit.  Even though I don't know how long I'm keeping mine (how long it will last), at least I can replace it on my own timeline.  The heatpro does sound quite intriguing, but at this point personally I'm going to wait and see if something can prove itself.  Otherwise, I'd see if I couldn't try to talk SBI into giving me a discount on a Caddy or Max Caddy, due to all the hassle you've been through.  Sounds legit to me.  Although SBI didn't seem to think so when I asked that last year when I had cracking...


I'm OK with going to the heatpro, the only thing that stinks now is the $1000 I have into the existing Ductwork for the tundra. Before I do even think of purchasing a heatpro I want in writing that you are not limited to just using the 6" supplies they have.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Fixed it for ya


Nope no tundra ll for me, this time it's go big or go home.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> The new Caddy I looked at on the showroom floor had a little "wing" under the center HE pipe, behind the firebox


My Caddy has "wings" on the side. I can't remember if it has them in the back.


----------



## sloeffle

Builderml said:


> Nope no tundra ll for me, this time it's go big or go home.


I don't blame you. I got the Caddy because I always heard it was better to run the dog snot out of a smaller stove or furnace vs letting it idle. That is great until you have a cold snap and can't get any more snot out of the dog.


----------



## Smoke Signals

With all of the talk about blower speed controllers I figured it would be a good time to post this description of the one that I recently built for my Tundra using the factory motor and the high and low speed lead leads from the motor. I ran the hot lead to the motor to the com on a relay, high to the motor to NC and low to NO on the relay so it will fail to high. The relay is connected to a temp controller that is monitoring the air temp coming off of the furnace. Switches to high at 105 and back to low when the temp drops to 100 (for now).

Enjoy!


----------



## brenndatomu

KARB2014 said:


> Sunday should be the day I'm able to set it on top of the Tundra and connected to the duct work.


.......


----------



## Builderml

sloeffle said:


> I don't blame you. I got the Caddy because I always heard it was better to run the dog snot out of a smaller stove or furnace vs letting it idle. That is great until you have a cold snap and can't get any more snot out of the dog.


What are you currently heating with the caddy?


----------



## David_QC

Smoke Signals said:


> With all of the talk about blower speed controllers I figured it would be a good time to post this description of the one that I recently built for my Tundra using the factory motor and the high and low speed lead leads from the motor.


Good idea! It is basically what they do with the Max Caddy, it is not a 'drive' or 'inverter' it is only switching wire...

I hope SBI will add more 'control' over their speed controller... Max Caddy is locked at speed 2 until it reach 140F in the plenum, than it speed up to what I think is speed 4, than close the damper and speed up to 6 when it reach max temp (don't remember temp)... I rarely reach 140F with wood, not the way I run it... If it happen, speed 4 will cool the plenum pretty quickly... If I had more control over that controller, I would start it at speed 1, boost it at speed 2 when it get to 120F and back to speed 1 below 110F... It would probably solve my frequent cycling problem... So, for now I don't really enjoy that speed controller I probably paid lot for.. it is always at speed 2...


----------



## Smoke Signals

David_QC said:


> It would probably solve my frequent cycling problem...




I think you are correct. My blower is able to run much longer now and extract more heat out of the coals.


----------



## brenndatomu

In my ongoing email convo with SBI I asked them how to measure, and what kind of temps I should be expecting for "normal operation"...this was their response...

"In terms of venting and internal combustion, they are like a big wood stove.  Temperatures below 800F, even if continuous, do not cause a problem for steel.  Normally, if you were to put a thermometer on the flue, you’d get approximately 350F to 550F in the flue during normal use. You could go as high as 700F during start-up, but not much more. 

A unit like the Tundra/Heatpro, if operated normally, with dry cordwood and normal average flue temperatures of 350F to 550F can be operated continuously during winter." 

I think they mean internal flue temps, because that's what I had been referring to in my email. I guess I am finding it hard to believe 700* wouldn't cause problems...(for Tundra/Heatmax) I think there are a few people here that have had cracking issues and flue temps that never hit 700. And 700* would definitely be impossible to sustain for long...the firebox would fill up with red hot coals right quick!
Their recommendation of 350*-550* sounds like a good range to me. Since I have welded my cracked heat exchanger up, 550* will put out a ton of heat for me (that's where flue temps were when I found my damper stuck open the other day...when I had 154* duct temps)
And speaking of duct temps, my wife even noticed a difference after I fixed the HE, she said today that she has noticed the register in our sons room tends to runs warmer...and she normally never notices these things...


----------



## sloeffle

Builderml said:


> What are you currently heating with the caddy?


We are currently heating a 2236 sq ft ranch in zone 6a / 5b.

We put on an 832 sq ft addition a few years ago that is insulated really well. The other 1404 sq ft is insulated moderately well but it also has cathedral ceilings. The 832 sq ft basement is also heated, but that is mostly from the excess heat from the furnace.

When I bought the Caddy about 5 years ago it was rated for 2000 sq ft. Now I think it is only rated for 1700 sq ft. I think you can see a trend with PSG in this area.


----------



## KARB2014

Sorry everyone I was not able to get the plenum installed. We finally had are first good snowfall and the kids (also me) wanted to go out and play in it. I did get sick of the coaling issue and went back to using the grate. I now no longer have any coaling issue, My house after a reload will jump up to 75 settle in a 74 and hold that for 5.5 -6 hours. Then it will drop to 73 and the thermostat will open the damper and burn the coals for another 2hrs and not let the house drop below 72. All but a hand full of coals will be left. This is with 10 deg weather with strong winds. Normally with that kind of weather I would have a firebox of coals and the house would drop to 69-70 while I would try to reduce the coals. In order to use the grate I have to reduce the hole size on the primary air damper to about half the size. I'm talking about the hole in the damper flap when it is closed. Also I'm still running the secondary air about 50% closed off. To be hones I'm kind of jealous of those of you that have yours cracking. Mine must have been built tough because it will not crack. I wish it would so I would have a reason to upgrade to a max caddy or heatmax. I will try to make time sometime soon to install the plenum. Does anybody happen to have a picture or anyway to better describe the "wings" that the caddy has?


----------



## David_QC

Is that what you means by 'wings' ?
It is from a Max Caddy


----------



## brenndatomu

David_QC said:


> Is that what you means by 'wings' ?
> It is from a Max Caddy
> 
> View attachment 173162
> View attachment 173163
> View attachment 173167


Right below the HEs, on the side of the air jacket, there are air deflectors (wings) to make the air go under and all around the HEs. The newer Caddys also have one in behind the firebox, under the center HE, to deflect the air forward instead of just shooting straight up, without much opportunity to pick up some heat along the way (if it just went straight up)


----------



## Builderml

Here is the latest on the warranty. I'll start by saying I am very pleased with the service I am getting from both SBI and L&M Fleet supply. First off SBI is taking the unit back. In turn I will receive a full refund. L&M called me last night to make sure everything was going to my satisfaction. I asked SBI if I could keep the unit to finish off the season seeing how I have a bit of money and time invested. They said no problem lets us know when you are ready in the spring. To me this is first class service and I could not ask for anything more. Hats off to L&M and SBI they are making things right by me. I highly recommend everyone to purchase from L&M if possible. Seeing how SBI is standing behind the tundra and providing great service I will be giving them more business by purchasing a Max Caddy. I also asked SBI for a replacement baffle that goes ontop of the secondary tubes
 I think I cracked it by loading wood. I told them I would pay for it seeing how they are willing to take the unit back. They replied I'll send you one free of charge. I don't think they had to do that at all. So for now I'll keep burning the tundra and when the season is done she'll be heading north of the border.


----------



## laynes69

Builderml said:


> Here is the latest on the warranty. I'll start by saying I am very pleased with the service I am getting from both SBI and L&M Fleet supply. First off SBI is taking the unit back. In turn I will receive a full refund. L&M called me last night to make sure everything was going to my satisfaction. I asked SBI if I could keep the unit to finish off the season seeing how I have a bit of money and time invested. They said no problem lets us know when you are ready in the spring. To me this is first class service and I could not ask for anything more. Hats off to L&M and SBI they are making things right by me. I highly recommend everyone to purchase from L&M if possible. Seeing how SBI is standing behind the tundra and providing great service I will be giving them more business by purchasing a Max Caddy. I also asked SBI for a replacement baffle that goes ontop of the secondary tubes
> I think I cracked it by loading wood. I told them I would pay for it seeing how they are willing to take the unit back. They replied I'll send you one free of charge. I don't think they had to do that at all. So for now I'll keep burning the tundra and when the season is done she'll be heading north of the border.


That's awesome! I had an issue the first year on mine that caused the back to deteriorate. I believe it was from sitting in bad storage. Anyhow, SBI took care of me and sent a new firebox, along with firebrick, and other replacement parts. The furnace was branded a usstove, but since SBI built it, they took care of things. They even drove here from Canada to talk to me and take pics. I've never had an issue with their customer service. Can't wait to hear about the Max Caddy. Maybe someday I'll upgrade to something larger. Glad to hear they are taking care of things.


----------



## lexybird

David_QC said:


> Good idea! It is basically what they do with the Max Caddy, it is not a 'drive' or 'inverter' it is only switching wire...
> 
> I hope SBI will add more 'control' over their speed controller... Max Caddy is locked at speed 2 until it reach 140F in the plenum, than it speed up to what I think is speed 4, than close the damper and speed up to 6 when it reach max temp (don't remember temp)... I rarely reach 140F with wood, not the way I run it... If it happen, speed 4 will cool the plenum pretty quickly... If I had more control over that controller, I would start it at speed 1, boost it at speed 2 when it get to 120F and back to speed 1 below 110F... It would probably solve my frequent cycling problem... So, for now I don't really enjoy that speed controller I probably paid lot for.. it is always at speed 2...


 You realize on a max caddy The speed of the blower can be adjusted . The factory setting I found to be just right . Far better than the tundra single speed which I also have owned. Of coarse each persons ducting and setup varies


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> To me this is first class service and I could not ask for anything more.



That's really great to hear.  Not only for your sake that you're taken care of, but also great to hear that SBI is earning a top-notch reputation.  And going above and beyond (like your baffle).  They have followed through very well for me too, even tracked me down once and sent me parts before I installed or registered the furnace and knew the snap disc was broken.  It's stuff like this that gives me a lot of patience even though the furnace has cracking problems and SBI doesn't seem to answer technical questions thoroughly.  If I had to get rid of my Tundra today, I'd still start with SBI (although a Caddy or Max Caddy until the Tundra or Heatpro are vetted.)


----------



## David_QC

lexybird said:


> You realize on a max caddy The speed of the blower can be adjusted . The factory setting I found to be just right . Far better than the tundra single speed which I also have owned. Of coarse each persons ducting and setup varies



Go to max caddy pricing thread for reply, I think I used too much of that 'tundra' thread


----------



## brenndatomu

Well I set out to install a plenum on Tundra today...got a little sidetracked, we'll see how this turns out.
As part of my plenum install I wanted to keep the air flow through the furnace air jacket from "short circuiting", going up the back of the firebox, right up over the HEs and out. Very little contact time with hot things.
The longer I studied the issue and thought about the airflow through this thing, the more I have become convinced that I want to block most of the huge open space (highlighted in red) on the back side, channel the air right up to the factory side air deflectors.




	

		
			
		

		
	
 The backside of the firebox, from the left side. Wide open spaces back here...I highlighted the blower in green.


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Here's what I came up with, it is just setting on the HEs here.


	

		
			
		

		
	
 The new air deflector in place, from the left side.


	

		
			
		

		
	
 I also decided to make a deflector to channel the air in the front corners around the HE cleanout box.







	

		
			
		

		
	
 Just clipped onto the factory air deflector using a couple short pieces of S clip





	

		
			
		

		
	
 Complete 


	

		
			
		

		
	
 Now almost all the air has to get up close and personal with hot things. I know these pics make it look like I have things really choked off, but believe me, it is not as tight as it looks, there is plenty of room for air flow. There is still some air able to come up past the deflector in the back as I kept it 1//4" - 3/8" up off the firebox and left a 1/4" or so gap around the HEs too. 
I think this is gonna make a real difference, I decided to put the old top back on and use the same 3 ducts connections that I have been using, just to compare...so plenum postponed again. It's pretty warm here right now, I'm not even sure when I will be able to fire up and try this out!


----------



## lexybird

I like the shield ideas I'd add hi temp insulation too if space allows . My max caddy is full of shield deflectors  and insulation inside instead of the tundras empty tin box design .


----------



## 3fordasho

Looks great, I wonder if this is the reason SBI does not recommend removing the factory top and installing a plenum. 
With the lack of deflectors and a more open plenum style top even  less heat might be transferred.  I'm hoping the defectors + plenum will be the ticket for optimum heat transfer.


----------



## Byron21

Nice work B I'm following this closely at some point I may give the heatmax another shot so I'm very interested in any mods that will help....One question , in picture 2 what is that sq tube I see down in there I noticed that looking down into mine "without the top removed" couldn't figure out what that is for or does...anyhow good stuff

PS ..looking at it again maybe that's what makes contact with the floor ?


----------



## brenndatomu

lexybird said:


> tundras empty tin box design


That's a good description of it, a tin can with a firebox sitting in the middle of it. The two side air deflectors are really the only thing in there to actively control air flow.


3fordasho said:


> I wonder if this is the reason SBI does not recommend removing the factory top and installing a plenum.


Well, I dunno. When I went to research this subject at the local dealer a few weeks back, I was a little surprised to find that the Caddy is almost identical under the air jacket, except the Caddy has the reflective insulation like @lexybird  mentioned his Max Caddy has. Oh, and the little deflector behind the firebox, under the center HE, Tundra just has a bracket there to support the HE, no "wing".
To be honest the airflow through the Caddy is likely very different because of not having the blower pushing air directly into the back of the huge ash pan that the Tundra has. The Tundra firebox is basically "sitting" on the ash pan (not structurally it isn't, the firebox is actually supported by the front panel and the two rear legs) whereas the Caddy has a small ash pan, and under that is wide open. (which allows room for the oil burner option)


Byron21 said:


> I'm following this closely at some point I may give the heatmax another shot


You mean your old one, or a new one?


Byron21 said:


> One question , in picture 2 what is that sq tube I see down in there I noticed that looking down into mine "without the top removed" couldn't figure out what that is for or does





Byron21 said:


> PS ..looking at it again maybe that's what makes contact with the floor ?


Yeah, that is one of the two firebox support legs


----------



## Byron21

brenndatomu said:


> You mean your old one, or a new one?


 the old one , if heat production can be improved with a plenum and a few mods... and a little more work on the house maybe I could get it to do the job .... I like the new furnace there is more than enough hp to heat this place but with warm temps say in the 30's it will give more than we want.. Some days I let it go out...The other thing I worry about is my wife running it . She puts wood in but as far as adjustments to the draft and such, that going to take some time... The FChief will get hot fast and over fire is a concern...so I don't let her mess with the adjustments.....
I was shooting for something that was easy for her to run when we got the heatmax the FC is old school and maybe a step back from wife friendly ..lol
anyhow enough of my sidetracking....keep up the good work B


----------



## brenndatomu

Byron21 said:


> I was shooting for something that was easy for her to run when we got the heatmax the FC is old school and maybe a step back from wife friendly ..lol


I was telling my wife just the other day, the Tundra is the easiest wood burner to run that I have ever used, especially with the temp controller added onto it. Open door, rake coals forward, load wood, close door, set timer done. Only slightly more work building fire from cold stove...
And it really is a pretty clean burner...after installing the Tundra over at my sisters place I have not had to clean the chimney all winter so far (checked it once) When she was using the old Yukon Big Jack in its stock form the chimney needed cleaned once a month or so


----------



## Byron21

brenndatomu said:


> I was telling my wife just the other day, the Tundra is the easiest wood burner to run that I have ever used, especially with the temp controller added onto it. Open door, rake coals forward, load wood, close door, set timer done. Only slightly more work building fire from cold stove...
> And it really is a pretty clean burner...after installing the Tundra over at my sisters place I have not had to clean the chimney all winter so far (checked it once) When she was using the old Yukon Big Jack in its stock form the chimney needed cleaned once a month or so


      There are no doubts there once you get the Heatmax fired up you can walk away....I took my wife down today and went over the air controls on the FC... I have a Dwyer manometer mounted to the side of the FC, showed her how that works...Next I'll walked her through a cold fire up and the needed adjustments and why and what for.... 

I did buy a temp controller for the FC but it runs between 350/450 at idle "measured just after the stove collar" by the time it drops below 300 the wood is pretty much gone...


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Well I set out to install a plenum on Tundra today...got a little sidetracked, we'll see how this turns out.
> As part of my plenum install I wanted to keep the air flow through the furnace air jacket from "short circuiting", going up the back of the firebox, right up over the HEs and out. Very little contact time with hot things.
> The longer I studied the issue and thought about the airflow through this thing, the more I have become convinced that I want to block most of the huge open space (highlighted in red) on the back side, channel the air right up to the factory side air deflectors.
> View attachment 173600
> 
> View attachment 173601
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The backside of the firebox, from the left side. Wide open spaces back here...I highlighted the blower in green.
> View attachment 173603
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what I came up with, it is just setting on the HEs here.
> View attachment 173604
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> The new air deflector in place, from the left side.
> View attachment 173605
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also decided to make a deflector to channel the air in the front corners around the HE cleanout box.
> View attachment 173606
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> 
> View attachment 173607
> 
> View attachment 173608
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just clipped onto the factory air deflector using a couple short pieces of S clip
> View attachment 173609
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> 
> View attachment 173612
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Complete
> View attachment 173613
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now almost all the air has to get up close and personal with hot things. I know these pics make it look like I have things really choked off, but believe me, it is not as tight as it looks, there is plenty of room for air flow. There is still some air able to come up past the deflector in the back as I kept it 1//4" - 3/8" up off the firebox and left a 1/4" or so gap around the HEs too.
> I think this is gonna make a real difference, I decided to put the old top back on and use the same 3 ducts connections that I have been using, just to compare...so plenum postponed again. It's pretty warm here right now, I'm not even sure when I will be able to fire up and try this out!


interesting.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> interesting.


Hey buddy, welcome to hearth!


----------



## brenndatomu

For you guys that wanted a picture of the "wing" on the back of a Caddy, went back to the stove shop for some paint today...remembered my camera this time.



	

		
			
		

		
	
 This is from standing behind the furnace, to the left of the stove pipe connection, you can see the shadow of the center HE on the wing.
Much to my surprise, there is a panel screwed to the legs supporting the back of the firebox, so my theory that the blower can push air straight under the firebox on the Caddy was wrong.


	

		
			
		

		
	
 For the guys that have never seen a Caddy in person, here is a pic of the difference in the air jackets between Caddy/Tundra. This a pic from the front side, the left corner, straight down. The red line would be the front of the firebox/furnace on a Tundra. As you can see all the radiant heat that Tundra loses to the basement is captured by the Caddys air jacket design.
Just as a point of reference, the blue line represents where I had to weld up my HE a couple weeks back.

Oh, and I also remembered to check the top of the firebox this time...I couldn't get a pic of it so y'all just hafta take my word for it, but Caddy does NOT have the flame shield on the top of the firebox like my Tundra does. I'm saying this could very well be one of the main reasons that the heat output of the Tundra seems to be a little less than a Caddy. After all, if you think about it, the stove top is the main heat exchanger on a wood stove, and the Tundra firebox is good sized, so if you lose good heat exchange there (because of a "two ply" top) its gotta affect overall heat output IMO.


----------



## brenndatomu

Also, update on my air deflector mods from last Saturday...finally got cold enough to fire back up mid week, so I have been using it for a few days now. I would say this was a worthwhile mod, not night and day difference, but overall heat output to the house is up for sure. Where I was struggling to heat the house with this thing back in the fall during 20s-30s* weather, it is doing it pretty easily now...heck it was high 20s here this morning and I had the house starting to get a little warm (73-74) from just 3 or 4 splits of Elm. I would say this is a result of the sum total of all the mods/repairs I've done more than any one thing.

So far I have...
-Added the temp controller. This has not only helped efficiency IMO, as a side benefit, it is a _great_ convenience, just load n go!
-Done a "super cleaning" of the HEs, this definitely helped. And I can tell a real difference in heat output whenever I clean them now if it has been a week or two since it was done.
-Added a the third duct connection, to the front port.
-Added a "turbulator" to the center HE. Not a huge difference, but I do believe it helped some.
-Fixed the "cracked" weld (or just added to the almost non-existent factory weld) This was a biggy, it really changed the way this thing runs, my wife even noticed a difference afterwards.
-Added additional air deflectors in the air jacket. The biggest change that I noticed right off the bat is that the "hot spots" around the front duct connector evened out...a lot! The front pipe always ran about 10* hotter than the two in the middle, now they are all about even. The whole HE cleanout box area seems to run cooler now, it got really hot around there before!

As far as future plans, I will still likely do a full on plenum yet at some point, and I am still working on getting the parts to do a true "automatic infinitely variable speed" mod on the blower (not just 1 or 2 (or 4) different speeds like Heatpro and Max Caddy has)


----------



## laynes69

I did place a wing at the rear of my heat exchanger. While I can't say for sure it helped, I know it hasn't hurt anything. I used a couple of hard drive magnets and a thin sheet of aluminum.

I would think the false top on the tundra has something to do with the 2-8" outlets. Maybe too much heat and not enough flow?

I read something that made me think of the tundra vs the Caddy the other day. Someone with a gas furnace was talking about blower speeds. They wanted more heat so they lowered their blower speed. With the same output of the furnace from the higher speed, they noticed even though the air temperatures were higher, it took twice as long to satisfy the thermostat. When they increased the volume of air, temps were cooler but the thermostat was satisfied quicker. Having an open plenum on the Caddy has to make a pretty significant difference.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> With the same output of the furnace from the higher speed, they noticed even though the air temperatures were higher, it took twice as long to satisfy the thermostat. When they increased the volume of air, temps were cooler but the thermostat was satisfied quicker


That makes sense. The lower delta T  of the higher blower speeds means less heat going up the chimney...so more heat to the house (overall) I know what they are saying though, the higher blower speed feels cooler, and "drafty", plus, on a wood furnace higher blower speeds mean more blower cycling


----------



## DoubleB

Other people have made fancy temp controllers to control their Tundras better.  I made a simple snap-disc system as an alternative.

First thing was to add a 0-60 minute bathroom timer to the thermostat terminals, as others have done (bottom of diagram below).  It’s so easy and effective, it’s a must-have to improve things quickly.






I also rigged up some sheet metal holders and installed 2 snap discs on the 6” HX tube that sticks out the rear of the furnace, and multi-purposed the stove pipe screw holes to also retain the metal holders, as shown below.  The far snap disc is an adjustable 210-250F Grainger #6UEA9 and the near snap disc is a 120F Grainger #6UDY9.  I wired the 210-250 snap disc in series with the overtemp damper cutout (top left of diagram).  I wired the 120F snap disc and a simple light switch in parallel with the thermostat terminals that open the damper (bottom left of diagram).






The 210-250F snap disc provides overtemp protection by cutting out the damper motor.  Even though it resets 40F below the cutout temp, the HX tube temperature ranges widely depending upon burn rate so it only takes a couple minutes for the snap disc to reset after the damper closes.  

I chose the 210-250F temp range based on what my IR gun showed me was about the temp when I wanted the damper to close.  I installed, but even as low as 210 would let the furnace get too hot.  Turned out the surface was hot enough but there was warm air blasting out of the rear panel and cooling the rest of the snap disc.  So I sealed it with aluminum tape, but then the complete lack of airflow meant that even set up at 250F, the snap disc tripped and closed the damper way too soon.  I slightly crimped a metal shim and put that under the snap disc, and now it opens the damper circuit just at the right time when set to 230F.  

On a typical start, the snap disc might hit the high limit and close the damper, and secondaries might fail within a couple minutes, at which time the snap disc resets and gives another try.  

As for the 120F snap disc, its purpose is on really cold days, I can close (turn on) the “burn coals” switch.  After a burn has peaked and I have coals left, the 120F snap disc cools enough to close the circuit and open the damper.  Not only do I get heat sooner from the coals on a cold day, but more so to burn them down so we can start another load sooner.  Same thing as others have done with their temp controllers.

So, it’s somewhat fool-proof now:

Load furnace
Set timer to 20 minutes if lots of coals; 30 minutes if few coals.
Turn on “burn coals” switch if really cold or windy.
If “burn coals” switch is on, wait at least 4 hours between loads and let LP furnace fill in the gaps if necessary (hardly ever).

I also multi-purposed the rear screws for the rear outlet plate to secure a sheet metal guard of sorts to help protect the snap discs, especially the 110V snap disc on the far side.






All in all, it seems to work quite well, further optimize burning, and keep things safe and under control.  I’m pretty pleased for an experiment for $35 and some tinker time.

Compared to the micro controller alternatives described in previous posts, I don’t think this option can be adjusted as easily or quickly or inexpensively.  However, I also think this option is very effective once dialed in, might be less expensive overall, and is easy enough for a smart monkey to understand, find replacement parts, and repair down the road.  

Just for the record, this was my second experiment.  My first attempt was just to replace the OEM over-temp snap disc (L-200 in diagram) with a lower-temp snap disc.  I tried 120F and 125F snap discs from Grainger ($6 each) because they were the warmest ones that had the smallest temp differential between opening and resetting the circuit (10 deg F).  I wanted a small temp difference because the plenum doesn’t change temperature much between blazing hot fire during warm-up and enough temp to get/keep secondaries cruising.  After experimenting a while, even the 125F snap disc would close the damper too cool and too often during start-up such that it took several cycles of smoldering until the secondaries lit.  If I went with a higher temp snap disc, I mostly could find only a 40F temp differential, which would either have been too hot a limit to be any better than OEM, or else the larger temp differential would have made the smoldering even longer until the snap disc reset.  Plus, since the L-200 snap disc (or its replacement) only senses plenum temperature, it’s subject to variation due to HX cleanliness, air filter condition (and airflow), house temperature (cold air return), etc., and I found it just was too variable and slow-reacting to be much good to effectively prevent excessive temperatures while also allowing enough heat-up to light the secondaries.  So, in my experience replacing the L200 snap disc with a lower-temp snap disc is not a great option.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> Other people have made fancy temp controllers to control their Tundras better.  I made a simple snap-disc system as an alternative.
> 
> First thing was to add a 0-60 minute bathroom timer to the thermostat terminals, as others have done (bottom of diagram below).  It’s so easy and effective, it’s a must-have to improve things quickly.
> 
> View attachment 174152
> 
> 
> I also rigged up some sheet metal holders and installed 2 snap discs on the 6” HX tube that sticks out the rear of the furnace, and multi-purposed the stove pipe screw holes to also retain the metal holders, as shown below.  The far snap disc is an adjustable 210-250F Grainger #6UEA9 and the near snap disc is a 120F Grainger #6UDY9.  I wired the 210-250 snap disc in series with the overtemp damper cutout (top left of diagram).  I wired the 120F snap disc and a simple light switch in parallel with the thermostat terminals that open the damper (bottom left of diagram).
> 
> View attachment 174153
> 
> 
> The 210-250F snap disc provides overtemp protection by cutting out the damper motor.  Even though it resets 40F below the cutout temp, the HX tube temperature ranges widely depending upon burn rate so it only takes a couple minutes for the snap disc to reset after the damper closes.
> 
> I chose the 210-250F temp range based on what my IR gun showed me was about the temp when I wanted the damper to close.  I installed, but even as low as 210 would let the furnace get too hot.  Turned out the surface was hot enough but there was warm air blasting out of the rear panel and cooling the rest of the snap disc.  So I sealed it with aluminum tape, but then the complete lack of airflow meant that even set up at 250F, the snap disc tripped and closed the damper way too soon.  I slightly crimped a metal shim and put that under the snap disc, and now it opens the damper circuit just at the right time when set to 230F.
> 
> On a typical start, the snap disc might hit the high limit and close the damper, and secondaries might fail within a couple minutes, at which time the snap disc resets and gives another try.
> 
> As for the 120F snap disc, its purpose is on really cold days, I can close (turn on) the “burn coals” switch.  After a burn has peaked and I have coals left, the 120F snap disc cools enough to close the circuit and open the damper.  Not only do I get heat sooner from the coals on a cold day, but more so to burn them down so we can start another load sooner.  Same thing as others have done with their temp controllers.
> 
> So, it’s somewhat fool-proof now:
> 
> Load furnace
> Set timer to 20 minutes if lots of coals; 30 minutes if few coals.
> Turn on “burn coals” switch if really cold or windy.
> If “burn coals” switch is on, wait at least 4 hours between loads and let LP furnace fill in the gaps if necessary (hardly ever).
> 
> I also multi-purposed the rear screws for the rear outlet plate to secure a sheet metal guard of sorts to help protect the snap discs, especially the 110V snap disc on the far side.
> 
> View attachment 174154
> 
> 
> All in all, it seems to work quite well, further optimize burning, and keep things safe and under control.  I’m pretty pleased for an experiment for $35 and some tinker time.
> 
> Compared to the micro controller alternatives described in previous posts, I don’t think this option can be adjusted as easily or quickly or inexpensively.  However, I also think this option is very effective once dialed in, might be less expensive overall, and is easy enough for a smart monkey to understand, find replacement parts, and repair down the road.
> 
> Just for the record, this was my second experiment.  My first attempt was just to replace the OEM over-temp snap disc (L-200 in diagram) with a lower-temp snap disc.  I tried 120F and 125F snap discs from Grainger ($6 each) because they were the warmest ones that had the smallest temp differential between opening and resetting the circuit (10 deg F).  I wanted a small temp difference because the plenum doesn’t change temperature much between blazing hot fire during warm-up and enough temp to get/keep secondaries cruising.  After experimenting a while, even the 125F snap disc would close the damper too cool and too often during start-up such that it took several cycles of smoldering until the secondaries lit.  If I went with a higher temp snap disc, I mostly could find only a 40F temp differential, which would either have been too hot a limit to be any better than OEM, or else the larger temp differential would have made the smoldering even longer until the snap disc reset.  Plus, since the L-200 snap disc (or its replacement) only senses plenum temperature, it’s subject to variation due to HX cleanliness, air filter condition (and airflow), house temperature (cold air return), etc., and I found it just was too variable and slow-reacting to be much good to effectively prevent excessive temperatures while also allowing enough heat-up to light the secondaries.  So, in my experience replacing the L200 snap disc with a lower-temp snap disc is not a great option.



That was a well thought out post thank you. There is much more to wood heat than the average person would think.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Other people have made fancy temp controllers to control their Tundras better.  I made a simple snap-disc system as an alternative.
> 
> First thing was to add a 0-60 minute bathroom timer to the thermostat terminals, as others have done (bottom of diagram below).  It’s so easy and effective, it’s a must-have to improve things quickly.
> 
> View attachment 174152
> 
> 
> I also rigged up some sheet metal holders and installed 2 snap discs on the 6” HX tube that sticks out the rear of the furnace, and multi-purposed the stove pipe screw holes to also retain the metal holders, as shown below.  The far snap disc is an adjustable 210-250F Grainger #6UEA9 and the near snap disc is a 120F Grainger #6UDY9.  I wired the 210-250 snap disc in series with the overtemp damper cutout (top left of diagram).  I wired the 120F snap disc and a simple light switch in parallel with the thermostat terminals that open the damper (bottom left of diagram).
> 
> View attachment 174153
> 
> 
> The 210-250F snap disc provides overtemp protection by cutting out the damper motor.  Even though it resets 40F below the cutout temp, the HX tube temperature ranges widely depending upon burn rate so it only takes a couple minutes for the snap disc to reset after the damper closes.
> 
> I chose the 210-250F temp range based on what my IR gun showed me was about the temp when I wanted the damper to close.  I installed, but even as low as 210 would let the furnace get too hot.  Turned out the surface was hot enough but there was warm air blasting out of the rear panel and cooling the rest of the snap disc.  So I sealed it with aluminum tape, but then the complete lack of airflow meant that even set up at 250F, the snap disc tripped and closed the damper way too soon.  I slightly crimped a metal shim and put that under the snap disc, and now it opens the damper circuit just at the right time when set to 230F.
> 
> On a typical start, the snap disc might hit the high limit and close the damper, and secondaries might fail within a couple minutes, at which time the snap disc resets and gives another try.
> 
> As for the 120F snap disc, its purpose is on really cold days, I can close (turn on) the “burn coals” switch.  After a burn has peaked and I have coals left, the 120F snap disc cools enough to close the circuit and open the damper.  Not only do I get heat sooner from the coals on a cold day, but more so to burn them down so we can start another load sooner.  Same thing as others have done with their temp controllers.
> 
> So, it’s somewhat fool-proof now:
> 
> Load furnace
> Set timer to 20 minutes if lots of coals; 30 minutes if few coals.
> Turn on “burn coals” switch if really cold or windy.
> If “burn coals” switch is on, wait at least 4 hours between loads and let LP furnace fill in the gaps if necessary (hardly ever).
> 
> I also multi-purposed the rear screws for the rear outlet plate to secure a sheet metal guard of sorts to help protect the snap discs, especially the 110V snap disc on the far side.
> 
> View attachment 174154
> 
> 
> All in all, it seems to work quite well, further optimize burning, and keep things safe and under control.  I’m pretty pleased for an experiment for $35 and some tinker time.
> 
> Compared to the micro controller alternatives described in previous posts, I don’t think this option can be adjusted as easily or quickly or inexpensively.  However, I also think this option is very effective once dialed in, might be less expensive overall, and is easy enough for a smart monkey to understand, find replacement parts, and repair down the road.
> 
> Just for the record, this was my second experiment.  My first attempt was just to replace the OEM over-temp snap disc (L-200 in diagram) with a lower-temp snap disc.  I tried 120F and 125F snap discs from Grainger ($6 each) because they were the warmest ones that had the smallest temp differential between opening and resetting the circuit (10 deg F).  I wanted a small temp difference because the plenum doesn’t change temperature much between blazing hot fire during warm-up and enough temp to get/keep secondaries cruising.  After experimenting a while, even the 125F snap disc would close the damper too cool and too often during start-up such that it took several cycles of smoldering until the secondaries lit.  If I went with a higher temp snap disc, I mostly could find only a 40F temp differential, which would either have been too hot a limit to be any better than OEM, or else the larger temp differential would have made the smoldering even longer until the snap disc reset.  Plus, since the L-200 snap disc (or its replacement) only senses plenum temperature, it’s subject to variation due to HX cleanliness, air filter condition (and airflow), house temperature (cold air return), etc., and I found it just was too variable and slow-reacting to be much good to effectively prevent excessive temperatures while also allowing enough heat-up to light the secondaries.  So, in my experience replacing the L200 snap disc with a lower-temp snap disc is not a great option.



So the bath timers.. are you guys using these to bypass the controller or snap discs? For loading? So stove can surge up before the controls start holding the flu temps? I assume so as where we want to keep flu is no where near where it really needs to go on initial load.


----------



## Digger79

Maybe better to ask again instead of assume it use. Brenndatamo or however he spells it. lol. mentioned why he used it briefly on the phone with me but I'm not sure I understood him correctly. What function exactly is the bath timer performing and whats the benefit?


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> So stove can surge up before the controls start holding the flu temps


Yeah, that's about the size of it. It is easy to set 10-20-30 whatever minutes on it, and not worry about forgetting to shut off the factory manual switch, or relying on the tstat, which even though it may be calling for heat when you are loading, it may let the damper shut as soon as you turn your back...before firebox is up to temp.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> As far as future plans, I will still likely do a full on plenum yet at some point, and I am still working on getting the parts to do a true "automatic infinitely variable speed" mod on the blower (not just 1 or 2 (or 4) different speeds like Heatpro and Max Caddy has)


Would you have to replace the motor with a DC motor and some controls or can you use the existing motor ? 

The cats meow would be to have the damper and fan speeds all automated. So you basically could load and go.


----------



## Digger79

lol sorry that last part confused me. I understood the initial idea is correct though. gives fire box time to get up to temp, burn any surface moisture out of wood before stove begins being controlled. makes sense. currently mine is simply set to run off of firebox temps measured at the face of the stove with probe clamped on. This allows the fire to build to its max level then damper down unless therm is calling for heat. The only other function I have is its set to open when face temps are low enough draft is measuring low. So I am controlling draft but not using flu temps to do so. gives me a wider range and is easier to dial in. still going off manometer readings just using firebox temps. so my range is very small. HYS set to like 25 or 30. This seems to work nicely. kinda acts as the timer for loading keeping door open until firebox reaches proper temp. I may go back to flu temps but seems as is I can keep draft proper long as possible using surface temps of firebox. I may benefit from a timer if I change my setup but honestly its kinda load and go the way it is. maybe I could gain more control using flu temps, timer I dunno seems like I just load it close the door and forget it as it is. only thing I don't like is it gets hotter than I have max temp set for closing damper when I feel firebox has reached proper level, if therm is calling for heat.. this is where the timer would benefit I believe. I have remote control over my therm so I have been just turning it off when loading an back on after fire box reaches temp. timer would be helpful. Even though therm causes firebox to go hotter or damper to stay open longer than I have set, it still never reaches the high limit level. Only time that happens is on a really fully load on super hot coals or when starting a top down fire. A few times during instances like those the high limit switch came on right before the fan then damper reopened after a few minutes. 



brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, that's about the size of it. It is easy to set 10-20-30 whatever minutes on it, and not worry about forgetting to shut off the factory manual switch, or relying on the tstat, which even though it may be calling for heat when you are loading, it may let the damper shut as soon as you turn your back...before firebox is up to temp.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> lol sorry that last part confused me. I understood the initial idea is correct though. gives fire box time to get up to temp, burn any surface moisture out of wood before stove begins being controlled. makes sense. currently mine is simply set to run off of firebox temps measured at the face of the stove with probe clamped on. This allows the fire to build to its max level then damper down unless therm is calling for heat. The only other function I have is its set to open when face temps are low enough draft is measuring low. So I am controlling draft but not using flu temps to do so. gives me a wider range and is easier to dial in. still going off manometer readings just using firebox temps. so my range is very small. HYS set to like 25 or 30. This seems to work nicely. kinda acts as the timer for loading keeping door open until firebox reaches proper temp. I may go back to flu temps but seems as is I can keep draft proper long as possible using surface temps of firebox. I may benefit from a timer if I change my setup but honestly its kinda load and go the way it is. maybe I could gain more control using flu temps, timer I dunno seems like I just load it close the door and forget it as it is. only thing I don't like is it gets hotter than I have max temp set for closing damper when I feel firebox has reached proper level, if therm is calling for heat.. this is where the timer would benefit I believe. I have remote control over my therm so I have been just turning it off when loading an back on after fire box reaches temp. timer would be helpful. Even though therm causes firebox to go hotter or damper to stay open longer than I have set, it still never reaches the high limit level. Only time that happens is on a really fully load on super hot coals or when starting a top down fire. A few times during instances like those the high limit switch came on right before the fan then damper reopened after a few minutes.



oh ok I get what your saying. not sure why I got that confused makes perfect sense now. thx


----------



## Digger79

I have noticed some smoke staining, light creosote oil drips around the top of my chimney. I expect it around the rain cap some but its down the sides of the final stack a good foot or so. As well some slight discoloration has occurred its seems in the last few feet of that final stack piece. It all seem minimal and is minor not much oil dripping. I say oil cause its pretty much the color of clean motor oil. Any ways flu is 15' draft has never really gotten that high the baro did get stuck once but still i don't think draft went much over .07 or .08 and not for long. flu may have hit 500 at stove output measured on surface of pipe. Is any of this normal? Do you think I over drafted the chimney or does some discoloration occur sometimes? I need to go up and check the cap it seemed like I had it in tight but looks like smoke comes out under neath the bottom flange. maybe I didn't get it tight enough or should I be using a gasket? Just seems odd to have smoke coming under the bottom rain shield but maybe its just flowing out under it from the top of the flu I dunno. Thoughts?


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Would you have to replace the motor with a DC motor and some controls or can you use the existing motor ?


Sorry, I missed this post somehow.
No, a page or two back @STIHLY DAN  suggested using a controller meant for use on a AC unit...sounds almost perfect for what I am trying to accomplish with the blower. I have one coming to try out. I would have one installed already, but the putz that I ordered from on Amazon apparently was just kidding when he put up his for sale ad!


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> a controller meant for use on a AC unit...sounds almost perfect for what I am trying to accomplish with the blower. I have one coming to try out.



Can't wait to hear your results.  I'm devising a VFD setup too.  I asked the motor guy at work and he said I need to be careful to make sure the VFD is compatible with the motor otherwise it can prematurely age the motor bearings and windings/insulation and cause other problems.  So I called the motor manufacturer today to see if they could recommend a suitable VFD.  Conversation went like:

Me:  Is there a suitable VFD for this model #?
Mftr:  No, because this motor is used in a furnace blower.
Me:  Is there a different motor you make that would be amenable for a VFD?
Mftr:  Only if the furnace already has an ECM-controlled motor.
Me:  So are you saying there is no suitable VFD for the motor because of how the motor is designed, or because it's used in a furnace?
Mftr:  Because it's used in a furnace.
Me:  So is there a suitable VFD for this motor if it's not used in a furnace?
Mftr:  No.

It was clear he didn't feel any incentive to entertain my inquisitiveness, so I'm curious if anyone here knows how to know if a particular VFD is suitable for our blower motor.

I don't plan to go cheap if that means I'd damage the motor.  However, I even see home improvement stores have var speed drives for ceiling fans, and if that type of thing is suitable, I think I have a fail-safe circuit in mind where I could use that.


----------



## DoubleB

Smoke Signals said:


> With all of the talk about blower speed controllers I figured it would be a good time to post this description of the one that I recently built for my Tundra using the factory motor and the high and low speed lead leads from the motor. I ran the hot lead to the motor to the com on a relay, high to the motor to NC and low to NO on the relay so it will fail to high. The relay is connected to a temp controller that is monitoring the air temp coming off of the furnace. Switches to high at 105 and back to low when the temp drops to 100 (for now).


 
I'm thinking of the same thing, except putting the VFD inline with the motor speed 1 terminal.  That way, if the VFD or its leg fails, I still have the relay switch to NC if temp gets too hot (or if the relay fails), at which time the other leg energizes the motor at one of the other speed terminals.  In fact, I suppose electrically a I could probably even use the same blower speed terminal, since the relay couldn't short-circuit itself.


----------



## brenndatomu

Guess what guys?! I finally figured out why Tundras crack! They're made wrong!    (Well, I guess I should say that SBI fianlly figured it out)
I am serious though, the HE cleanout box shouldn't have been welded to the face of the furnace. When the HE tubes heat up, they get longer...and they are attached in a very solid manner to the back of the firebox...so something has to give. Since they are attached to the front panel of the furnace, they are pushing hard on the top of this big flat panel...and it is welded to the firebox...so the "fulcrum" point (and weak point) is where the two come together...right at the top of the loading door...which is already a weak spot due to the square corners...and that causes a stress riser...and that causes cracks when the HEs expands and contracts a number of times. Carbon steel will crack pretty easy when flexed in the same spot repeatedly.
You might argue that the HE tubes and the firebox are both hot, so both expanded, but, they are not going to expand at the same rate sooo...and the HEs are being cooled by the blower (more so than the firebox I'd say) so there is that expansion/contraction fight going on too.
I figured this out last night after looking at pics of our new member @Digger79 's  brand new warranty Tundra. He said the HE box is no longer welded to the front panel and there is rope gasket used to seal up the gap so all the blowers SP doesn't leak out there. There is a sheet metal cover used to trim out over the gap. After seeing his pic I went down and stared at mine for a while, and then the light came on...aha, that's what it is! And this explains why Caddys don't have the problem, due to the slightly different design, the HE box is not attached to the firebox like the Tundras are (were). So if the Heatpros are not welded there I say they will be crack free.
Here are the pics Digger sent me.


----------



## NateJD

Do you think it's worth cutting some welds on older ones?  I haven't had my top off, are they only welded from the front?  Just from memory there aren't many welds around the HE door. Any more observations from the wings you added?


----------



## NateJD

Never mind. Went down to load up and looked at the welds around heat exchanger door. Four of the five welds on the bottom are cracked completely. I have no cracking anywhere else so maybe I am immune to that now since the heat exchanger can flex.


----------



## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> Do you think it's worth cutting some welds on older ones?  I haven't had my top off, are they only welded from the front?  Just from memory there aren't many welds around the HE door. Any more observations from the wings you added?


Boy, I dunno. Maybe, but would that cause other issues, hard to say...since I have not seen the new design in person I am wondering what else has changed "under the skin".
The new air deflectors have made a difference, but I am waiting for the next cold spell to come in this weekend to compare it to the last cold spell before I make a judgement of just how much difference it has made..


----------



## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> Never mind. Went down to load up and looked at the welds around heat exchanger door. Four of the five welds on the bottom are cracked completely. I have no cracking anywhere else so maybe I am immune to that now since the heat exchanger can flex.


Yeah, but it is welded solid on the top and sides...that's the real problem.


----------



## NateJD

On the inside?  I only have spot welds on the outside bottom of mine that I can see.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I'm curious if anyone here knows how to know if a particular VFD is suitable for our blower motor.


It's not a VFD, just a simple speed control, lowers the voltage (to a point) The blower is a PSC motor so it will be OK with this controller since it is designed for PSC AC motors.
Here's the link http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV7hSk7pWSScAV4YnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1455096787/RO=10/RU=http://www.icmcontrols.com/Head-pressure-control-with-support-for-two-pressure-OR-two-temperature-controls-120600-VAC-ideal-for-line-voltage-AC-and-refrigeration-systems-Prodview.html/RK=0/RS=a3dfOCUbULpR2L3EUruSmP5a5Is-


----------



## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> On the inside?  I only have spot welds on the outside bottom of mine that I can see.


None on the inside. 
Huh, mine is welded the whole way except the bottom. What is your build date?


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> The blower is a PSC motor



How do you know that?  Not doubting you, I just don't know and would like to have the ability to ID a motor.


----------



## NateJD

Build date late August 2014. Serial number in early 1300s. No welds on sides or top of clean out door. Both of yours are very early aren't they?


----------



## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> Build date late August 2014. Serial number in early 1300s. No welds on sides or top of clean out door. Both of yours are very early aren't they?


Interesting...looks like you may be OK, with those tack welds broke free on the bottom it should be able to float. You should mark and monitor it under all different temp conditions, see if you can tell how much and when exactly it moves. 
Yes, I have a first year model


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> How do you know that?  Not doubting you, I just don't know and would like to have the ability to ID a motor.


Well, I'm no motor ID expert, but I have always been of the understanding that most (if not all) of the "cheap" multi speed direct drive blower motors are PSC type


----------



## Smoke Signals

Mine looks like NateJD's, built near the end of September of 14. The far right tack weld is cracked and I see some stress in the paint around the top of the door on the left side.


----------



## brenndatomu

Smoke Signals said:


> I see some stress in the paint around the top of the door on the left side.


The loading door?
Well, if those without the full weld are still cracking then that may explain why they went to the current design...not enough clearance. The HE box heats up, expands (height/width) and then is "stuck" in the front panel, not free to float


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu said:


> The loading door?



Yes, around the loading door. Cutting the welds as Nate suggested is a thought, would be pretty easy with a Metabo. My concern would be that it would void the warranty and the under writers approval.


----------



## brenndatomu

Smoke Signals said:


> My concern would be that it would void the warranty and the under writers approval.


Yeah, I wouldn't hack on one that is still warrantied...mine is a warranty "rescue" so I can't really hurt it any. And I guess I should state again (I think I have said this somewhere here before) I realize that I am taking full responsibility for all these mods if anything ever happened. Don't copy me unless your are willing to take the gamble and your own full responsibility.
I should say too that I have met all CTCs, by a mile...and believe it or not, all the wood in my furnace room has been treated with a fire retardant.


----------



## Smoke Signals

brenndatomu said:


> ...and believe it or not, all the wood in my furnace room has been treated with a fire retardant.




This last bit made me chuckle..... But yes, good call on the disclaimer. These things should not be undertaken lightly.


----------



## brenndatomu

Smoke Signals said:


> This last bit made me chuckle.....


Hey, I may be a hack, but I'm a cautious hack!


----------



## Byron21

Not sure what I'm not understanding my HE door flanges aren't welded ether....I assumed those flanges were part of the furnace face plate , just bent out of the opening waste steel and they welded the corners.... for some reason I can't see your pictures Brenn

ps... Never mind I just went down and double checked mine they are no formed there is a small gap all the way around not welded ....sorry guys


----------



## jb6l6gc

Just to clarify. I've been watching this thread but I'm sure I've missed a bunch. As someone in the near future who wants to order a tundra or heat max have all the issues been sorted yet or should I still wait longer??? Dying to say goodbye to this hotblast!


----------



## brenndatomu

Sorry guys, when I went to do the bedtime load last night I realized that I am totally full of crap, the top of the loading door is 4" or so below the top of the firebox...so my theory is bologna!
What I was talking about could (would) still cause the cracking at the bottom corners of the HE box though...just not the ones at the top of the loading door...ooops...foot in mouth disease here!


jb6l6gc said:


> Just to clarify. I've been watching this thread but I'm sure I've missed a bunch. As someone in the near future who wants to order a tundra or heat max have all the issues been sorted yet or should I still wait longer??? Dying to say goodbye to this hotblast!


I'm saying if you get one that was made more recently, then yeah, I bet it will be fine. I really think the design that Digger has will be fine...or you could wait a couple more months and get one of the new Tundra IIs


----------



## DoubleB

jb6l6gc said:


> have all the issues been sorted yet or should I still wait longer???



Depends on your risk tolerance and how much you want/need to replace the hotblast.  I would either get a Caddy or else wait until the Tundra has 2 years good track record.  Even recently when SBI assured one of our members the cracking was fixed (front firebrick, etc.), the guy installed it and it cracked shortly thereafter.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Even recently when SBI assured one of our members the cracking was fixed (front firebrick, etc.), the guy installed it and it cracked shortly thereafter.


To be fair though...it was run pretty hard...not that it should really matter as long as things didn't get too out of control, and I don't think that they did.
Of the two people that I know of that have run their Tundras really hard...they both had cracks pretty quick...but I don't know what the build date was on 'em, actually, get to thinking about it, the one was an older one


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> Sorry guys, when I went to do the bedtime load last night I realized that I am totally full of crap, the top of the loading door is 4" or so below the top of the firebox...so my theory is bologna!
> What I was talking about could (would) still cause the cracking at the bottom corners of the HE box though...just not the ones at the top of the loading door...ooops...foot in mouth disease here!
> 
> I'm saying if you get one that was made more recently, then yeah, I bet it will be fine. I really think the design that Digger has will be fine...or you could wait a couple more months and get one of the new Tundra IIs


Tundra II's?  I can wait through the summer but was hoping to have installed for next season. 


DoubleB said:


> Depends on your risk tolerance and how much you want/need to replace the hotblast.  I would either get a Caddy or else wait until the Tundra has 2 years good track record.  Even recently when SBI assured one of our members the cracking was fixed (front firebrick, etc.), the guy installed it and it cracked shortly thereafter.


The caddy is quite a bit more expensive no?

Even though my hotblast is a dirty girl at least she doesn't have a crack problem lol!


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> Tundra II's?


It has been discussed several times here, the latest one is back on page 41.


jb6l6gc said:


> The caddy is quite a bit more expensive no?


Around double(ish) depending on where you buy it.
You could go with the Heatpro...it was $2k at Menards here last week (sale) chances are that unit would be big enough that it would never be run hard enough to crack, even if they did have a tendency to do that (and I kinda doubt they will)


----------



## jb6l6gc

I have two 8" inputs on my trunk.  What's the plenum like on the heat pro. 2k I wish tundra is $2400 here so heat pro would obviously be more. I just dont wanna buy a hunk. Kinda surprised as my fireplace Is made by sbi and I know a few ppl with their other brands of stoves that have no issues. Wonder why they can't seem to get this one right???


----------



## jb6l6gc

My hotblast as much of a pos as it is has been run pretty damn hard and it shows no signs of stopping! Pretty bad when ussc can make a more durable product that's features in my opinion are very inferior!


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Guess what guys?! I finally figured out why Tundras crack! They're made wrong!    (Well, I guess I should say that SBI fianlly figured it out)
> I am serious though, the HE cleanout box shouldn't have been welded to the face of the furnace. When the HE tubes heat up, they get longer...and they are attached in a very solid manner to the back of the firebox...so something has to give. Since they are attached to the front panel of the furnace, they are pushing hard on the top of this big flat panel...and it is welded to the firebox...so the "fulcrum" point (and weak point) is where the two come together...right at the top of the loading door...which is already a weak spot due to the square corners...and that causes a stress riser...and that causes cracks when the HEs expands and contracts a number of times. Carbon steel will crack pretty easy when flexed in the same spot repeatedly.
> You might argue that the HE tubes and the firebox are both hot, so both expanded, but, they are not going to expand at the same rate sooo...and the HEs are being cooled by the blower (more so than the firebox I'd say) so there is that expansion/contraction fight going on too.
> I figured this out last night after looking at pics of our new member @Digger79 's  brand new warranty Tundra. He said the HE box is no longer welded to the front panel and there is rope gasket used to seal up the gap so all the blowers SP doesn't leak out there. There is a sheet metal cover used to trim out over the gap. After seeing his pic I went down and stared at mine for a while, and then the light came on...aha, that's what it is! And this explains why Caddys don't have the problem, due to the slightly different design, the HE box is not attached to the firebox like the Tundras are (were). So if the Heatpros are not welded there I say they will be crack free.
> Here are the pics Digger sent me.


Brenn , I beat you to it go back and read post #973 , been away came back and had 2pages on hearth to read.


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Depends on your risk tolerance and how much you want/need to replace the hotblast.  I would either get a Caddy or else wait until the Tundra has 2 years good track record.  Even recently when SBI assured one of our members the cracking was fixed (front firebrick, etc.), the guy installed it and it cracked shortly thereafter.


Double you talking about me?? if you tell me the rev limiters in a car is set at 7000 rpm I'm gonna find it a time or two


brenndatomu said:


> To be fair though...it was run pretty hard...not that it should really matter as long as things didn't get too out of control, and I don't think that they did.
> Of the two people that I know of that have run their Tundras really hard...they both had cracks pretty quick...but I don't know what the build date was on 'em, actually, get to thinking about it, the one was an older one


Run hard??? Never. OK.maybe once or 5 times


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn , I beat you to it go back and read post #973 , been away came back and had 2pages on hearth to read.





Builderml said:


> I was thinking the same thing. The way those two metals meet they want to expand in different directions. I guess the stronger of the two is winning. No issue so far with the top two corners but that's also not welded.


DOH!   But look at my post above...#1164...where I fessed up to being wrong     
Wondered where you been hiding...go and get a Max and you disappear!


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Wondered where you been hiding...go and get a Max and you disappear!


Been busy with work lately. No Max yet gonna be around April. Still have the Tundra going, its really going to get a work out shortly. Calling for -8 here for the weekend.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> Double you talking about me?? if you tell me the rev limiters in a car is set at 7000 rpm I'm gonna find it a time or two



Yea I couldn't remember exactly who and I didn't have time to go back to look.  I won't name names, nor stop you from naming yourself.


----------



## Digger79

new model tundra is real nice. Cracking issues have been fixed but there are still a few concerns but I feel the fixes are easy. I will update shortly with some pics of the few extra firebricks and rock wool I put in just incase. SBI is a great company, makes great stoves. They replaced my first model Tundra with the newest updated model. The biggest change is the fan comes on really soon and runs pretty much through our every entire burn big or small. starts to cycle off and on only towards the end of the burns. Runs much cooler heats much better. I am over all pretty damn happy with it for the $. its 10 deg out side and my house is 72.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Digger79 said:


> new model tundra is real nice. Cracking issues have been fixed but there are still a few concerns but I feel the fixes are easy. I will update shortly with some pics of the few extra firebricks and rock wool I put in just incase. SBI is a great company, makes great stoves. They replaced my first model Tundra with the newest updated model. The biggest change is the fan comes on really soon and runs pretty much through our every entire burn big or small. starts to cycle off and on only towards the end of the burns. Runs much cooler heats much better. I am over all pretty damn happy with it for the $. its 10 deg out side and my house is 72.


What is the warrenty on these units? I should hope its much more than a 1yr considering what I've read in this thread.  Like I said previously I am dying to order one in, just a little gun-shy. I dont wanna get stuck with a lemon.


----------



## jb6l6gc

I may pull the trigger just saw the tsc flyer for this month, heatmax on for $1993 with tax.  How much does the cold air intake addon cost?


----------



## Builderml

As i was loading this morning i figured i would look up at the welds.  All the tacks welds on the bottom are broken. I wish the welds would have broken before the face plate cracked in the corners. The cracked corners have about doubled since i first reported on it. Right side about 3/8" long, left side about 1/4" long now.Just need it to hold together for a couple more months. I suspect now it will with the welds broken.


----------



## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> I may pull the trigger just saw the tsc flyer for this month, heatmax on for $1993 with tax.  How much does the cold air intake addon cost?


TSC as in tractor supply company? Is that $1993 Canadian dollars?


----------



## Digger79

new model tundra is real nice. Cracking issues have been fixed but there are still a few concerns but I feel the fixes are easy. I will update shortly with some pics of the few extra firebricks and rock wool I put in just incase. SBI is a great company, makes great stoves. They replaced my first model Tundra with the newest updated model. The biggest change is the fan comes on really soon and runs pretty much through our every entire burn big or small. starts to cycle off and on only towards the end of the burns. Runs much cooler heats much better. I am over all pretty damn happy with it for the $. its 10 deg out side and my house is 72.


jb6l6gc said:


> I may pull the trigger just saw the tsc flyer for this month, heatmax on for $1993 with tax.  How much does the cold air intake addon cost?


find a menards.. like 13-1400 after mail in rebate rt now. normal price at menards is 1650$ TSC sucks. Everything there is overpriced.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Builderml said:


> TSC as in tractor supply company? Is that $1993 Canadian dollars?


yes canadian


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> As i was loading this morning i figured i would look up at the welds.  All the tacks welds on the bottom are broken. I wish the welds would have broken before the face plate cracked in the corners. The cracked corners have about doubled since i first reported on it. Right side about 3/8" long, left side about 1/4" long now.Just need it to hold together for a couple more months. I suspect now it will with the welds broken.
> View attachment 174533
> View attachment 174534
> View attachment 174535


Since your unit has been warrantied now, drill 1/8" to 3/16" holes at the very tip of those cracks...that is where they will stop. Fill the hole with furnace cement and roll! Ideally you'd let furnace cement dry for 24 hours before heating it up, but just to fill this lil ole hole...it doesn't matter...you can do this fill n drill without the furnace being cold.
To anybody else reading this...don't drill holes in your unit while it is under warranty!


----------



## jb6l6gc

Digger79 said:


> new model tundra is real nice. Cracking issues have been fixed but there are still a few concerns but I feel the fixes are easy. I will update shortly with some pics of the few extra firebricks and rock wool I put in just incase. SBI is a great company, makes great stoves. They replaced my first model Tundra with the newest updated model. The biggest change is the fan comes on really soon and runs pretty much through our every entire burn big or small. starts to cycle off and on only towards the end of the burns. Runs much cooler heats much better. I am over all pretty damn happy with it for the $. its 10 deg out side and my house is 72.
> 
> find a menards.. like 13-1400 after mail in rebate rt now. normal price at menards is 1650$ TSC sucks. Everything there is overpriced.


ya with our exchange it would cost me more to come accross border to a menards. trust me I already did the math!
Tsc actually has the lowest price here, other places I have priced want $2400 cdn


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> ya with our exchange it would cost me more to come accross border to a menards. trust me I already did the math!
> Tsc actually has the lowest price here, other places I have priced want $2400 cdn


How much does your health insurance cost you every month?


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> How much does your health insurance cost you every month?


I only ask that cause I have heard health care costs are low or provided by taxes. I hear about CA social healthcare system but really have never heard from a CA'ian about it. If its true while your exchange rate may make the stove cost you more I have paid enough in health insurance in the last year to buy 2 Tundra's or a Caddy. lol


----------



## Digger79

I just seen something.. on 6b161gc's tag.. 4 ton splitter!?!? What exactly does that split? Kindling? lol. Im just having fun but seriously I have a 30 ton splitter and have used 20 ton splitters. Had interest in the little elect splitter for small stuff or kindling, its 5 tons splitter. Never heard of a 4 ton power splitter. In all seriousness I am quite curious what a 4-5 ton splitter can handle. 1" diameter logs or no?


----------



## maple1

Digger79 said:


> I only ask that cause I have heard health care costs are low or provided by taxes. I hear about CA social healthcare system but really have never heard from a CA'ian about it. If its true while your exchange rate may make the stove cost you more I have paid enough in health insurance in the last year to buy 2 Tundra's or a Caddy. lol


 
Don't think we better sidetrack into that stuff...


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Since your unit has been warrantied now, drill 1/8" to 3/16" holes at the very tip of those cracks...that is where they will stop. Fill the hole with furnace cement and roll! Ideally you'd let furnace cement dry for 24 hours before heating it up, but just to fill this lil ole hole...it doesn't matter...you can do this fill n drill without the furnace being cold.
> To anybody else reading this...don't drill holes in your unit while it is under warranty!


What exactly was it you where incorrect about? I tried to go back thru the posts and make sense of it but couldn't. Something about the top of the loading door and why it may or may not crack? not the HE door.


----------



## maple1

Digger79 said:


> I just seen something.. on 6b161gc's tag.. 4 ton splitter!?!? What exactly does that split? Kindling? lol. Im just having fun but seriously I have a 30 ton splitter and have used 20 ton splitters. Had interest in the little elect splitter for small stuff or kindling, its 5 tons splitter. Never heard of a 4 ton power splitter. In all seriousness I am quite curious what a 4-5 ton splitter can handle. 1" diameter logs or no?


 
I've got one. In my basement. Works great for resplitting. Pretty slow but they're good for what they do. Pretty easy on fuel & no stink.


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## Digger79

maple1 said:


> Don't think we better sidetrack into that stuff...


I don't want to have a big convo about health care and politics I'm seriously curious about healthcare costs up there in CA. Never heard it from the horses mouth. This is an opportunity to do so. This forum is not for discussing such matters and I plan to stand by that just curious if its true health care is cheaper or paid for by tax dollars in CA.


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## Digger79

maple1 said:


> I've got one. In my basement. Works great for resplitting. Pretty slow but they're good for what they do. Pretty easy on fuel & no stink.


and no noise to speak of probably. Been wanting one for in the shed and kindling just can't bring my self to spend 300$ on sum thing I really don't need. my 2lb small hand maul makes kindling in a hurry and splits small logs with no effort. would be nice to have though. thx for the info.


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## Digger79

Ok here's the minor additions I added to the new Tundra replacement unit.

-firebricks at bottom of loading door.(SBI only used them up the sides.

-installed small amounts of rock wool insulation around inside corners of top of loading door cut out in firebox and where main air comes in.

There is insulation in the gap between the last vertical firebrick lining the sides of the firebox door cut out and the top of the cut out flange. This gap was large an direct heat was still exposed to firebox corners here. The insulation helps hold fire bricks snug, insulates corners further, and allows for fire bricks to expand. Important to rem when messing w firebrick n steel, firebricks will expand a ton compared to the steel.

2nd pic shows insulation (rock wool) in the corners where the air inlet is to further help insulate the corners.. Well in hindsight thinking back I am removing this insulation cause all its doing is keeping flowing fresh cool air from contacting those areas of metal as air is pulled in. The air prob cools more than insulation will protect.

The final pic simply shows additional fire bricks I added at bottom of door. SBI tech dept recieved these pics and approved these methods. Mainly the added firebrick they approved. SBI said me adding bricks is fine and reason they didn't was to allow for max volume in fire box for better complete burn.. Really? 8 cubic inches? Lol

I do feel w changes SBI has made and the few extra measures I took this stove will be fine. Works very well better than old model did. 

SBI was great to deal w an shipped me a brand new updated model. I keep the old one. Still works. Damage really is minimal an doesnt affect function at all. Drilled hole crack at HE stopped. Prob would sell for cheap. Firebricks already added so it prob run fine for a long time.

SBI will stand behind their products. One should have no fear in purchasing SBI products. Tundras r great economy line models of high efficiency furnace. Lotta bang for your buck and solid warranty.


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## Digger79

BTW the paint did blister a little even after proper small loads building up to big loads over 24 hrs when stove was new. Rt at the top corners above the welds on the firebox door cut out. This is why I put rock wool in there on the inside. SBI's firebrick was about 1/2' short in my opinion and should have come up closer to 1/8" or 1/4" from steel. Doesn't expand that much. 3/4" was too big of gap and obviously that area is still getting hot enough to blister stove paint. However I don't think it will crack and with the rock wool added def likely not now.


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## Digger79




----------



## Digger79

Ok here's two close up pics of both old and new stove. Pic is of top left inside crnr of firebox door cut out. Changes were made here too. Mybe a little tough to see but 

-heat shield steel is thicker
-main air shield is not welded to door cutout and is below weld instead of up flat against top an welded into corner.(part thats new air flows against coming in)
-both air deflector and heat shield are held further back from exterior steel. 

There's more room for expansion, less parts welded together, and air space between metals. I think this was critical. Prob the reason top corners cracked was the heat shield directly on top of air deflector, air deflector rt on top the door flange and welded to it. Too much heat transfer not enough room for expansion in a hot hot spot.. I think the key culprit to the design flaw here was the air deflector being added and welded to a firebox door. 

You can see how the entire system there is further back there's a 1/4" gap where before was none.


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## jb6l6gc

Digger79 said:


> I just seen something.. on 6b161gc's tag.. 4 ton splitter!?!? What exactly does that split? Kindling? lol. Im just having fun but seriously I have a 30 ton splitter and have used 20 ton splitters. Had interest in the little elect splitter for small stuff or kindling, its 5 tons splitter. Never heard of a 4 ton power splitter. In all seriousness I am quite curious what a 4-5 ton splitter can handle. 1" diameter logs or no?


20" logs believe it or not. Split 6 cord with it this year. Yes full cords. 
It is true our healthcare doesn't have a monthly cost however we pay very higher taxes in all aspects.  Income,sales everything is more expensive here for the most part. Hence when I travel to the states I almost always buy booze and clothes!


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## jb6l6gc

Digger79 said:


> Ok here's the minor additions I added to the new Tundra replacement unit.
> 
> -firebricks at bottom of loading door.(SBI only used them up the sides.
> 
> -installed small amounts of rock wool insulation around inside corners of top of loading door cut out in firebox and where main air comes in.
> 
> There is insulation in the gap between the last vertical firebrick lining the sides of the firebox door cut out and the top of the cut out flange. This gap was large an direct heat was still exposed to firebox corners here. The insulation helps hold fire bricks snug, insulates corners further, and allows for fire bricks to expand. Important to rem when messing w firebrick n steel, firebricks will expand a ton compared to the steel.
> 
> 2nd pic shows insulation (rock wool) in the corners where the air inlet is to further help insulate the corners.. Well in hindsight thinking back I am removing this insulation cause all its doing is keeping flowing fresh cool air from contacting those areas of metal as air is pulled in. The air prob cools more than insulation will protect.
> 
> The final pic simply shows additional fire bricks I added at bottom of door. SBI tech dept recieved these pics and approved these methods. Mainly the added firebrick they approved. SBI said me adding bricks is fine and reason they didn't was to allow for max volume in fire box for better complete burn.. Really? 8 cubic inches? Lol
> 
> I do feel w changes SBI has made and the few extra measures I took this stove will be fine. Works very well better than old model did.
> 
> SBI was great to deal w an shipped me a brand new updated model. I keep the old one. Still works. Damage really is minimal an doesnt affect function at all. Drilled hole crack at HE stopped. Prob would sell for cheap. Firebricks already added so it prob run fine for a long time.
> 
> SBI will stand behind their products. One should have no fear in purchasing SBI products. Tundras r great economy line models of high efficiency furnace. Lotta bang for your buck and solid warranty.
> 
> View attachment 174538
> View attachment 174537
> 
> 
> View attachment 174536


Good good glad to hear. I may just order one up then!  Oh and forgot to mention our public health insurance doesn't cover all things. If you did a stay in hospital you'd still get a bill. It just won't make you homeless!  And proudly I say sbi is a Canadian company and my fireplace was built by them!


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## Digger79

The escape inserts are very solid units. Well built good craftsmanship.


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## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> Good good glad to hear. I may just order one up then!


 One thing i would do before ordering a Tundra would be call up where you are going to buy it and have them confirm the Build date and serial number of the unit you will be receiving. If they will not do so i would explain to them why you are requesting the information and see if they will comply. If they say it comes direct from manufacture still have them confirm. In the US SBI has a facility that stores the Tundras ( In IL i think ) and all units ship from there. That is where mine came from and was still old stock. Just trying to save you a headache.


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## jb6l6gc

Builderml said:


> One thing i would do before ordering a Tundra would be call up where you are going to buy it and have them confirm the Build date and serial number of the unit you will be receiving. If they will not do so i would explain to them why you are requesting the information and see if they will comply. If they say it comes direct from manufacture still have them confirm. In the US SBI has a facility that stores the Tundras ( In IL i think ) and all units ship from there. That is where mine came from and was still old stock. Just trying to save you a headache.


Ya as far as I know it says they order in, says not available in store. What build date and beyond is good???


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## jb6l6gc

I sent sbi an email to ask if they'd be shipping out a later build date with the issues resolved?  Wondering if anyone out there already has a good contact at sbi and could get the answer for me asap. The sale is only on for a few days so I'd like to find out before it's over.


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## jb6l6gc

Called tsc they said it will be a current one from the manufacturer so I guess it's up to sbi to send me good product! However I emailed sbi through their website and drolets site and it got bounced back as undeliverable.


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## jb6l6gc

Also in wondering what advantage does the add on wall thermostat have or is it necessary? I am ordering the cold air return kit and was wondering if I should splurge on the thermostat too? I can post pictures of my current hotblast setup which will be identical to how I hook up the heatmax
Thanks again for all the help


----------



## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> Also in wondering what advantage does the add on wall thermostat have or is it necessary? I am ordering the cold air return kit and was wondering if I should splurge on the thermostat too? I can post pictures of my current hotblast setup which will be identical to how I hook up the heatmax
> Thanks again for all the help


Just pick up a simple heat t-stat at the hardware store about $20-$40 or order from eBay/Amazon for even cheaper

As far as build date mine is 12/2014 and I have issues I would want something mid 2015 the later the better.

I also called sbi and spoke with someone before purchase to make sure I was getting a unit that had problems resolved , they said yes, NOT mine cracked so contacting them doesn't really help from what I can tell. I again would call TSC and tell them to contact there purchaser/supplier and confirm which date you will get. Easier to do it now, believe me I am talking from experience.


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## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> I am ordering the cold air return kit


I wouldn't do that, contact a local HVAC fab shop/contractor (if you have one) and have them make a box/ filter setup for you. You'll also want 2 blank pieces of sheet metal to cover up the two sides you won't be using. If not your stuck with ordering from tsc I guess. Was under $100 total for me and that included a larger return plenum.


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## jb6l6gc

What does the thermostat even do? My hotblast doesn't have one just a simple snap disk. The return kit with filter is only $70 so I'll probably just go oem on that to make it easier as that's how my hotblast is setup but I built that fan and filter box myself.


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## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> View attachment 174588
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does the thermostat even do? My hotblast doesn't have one just a simple snap disk. The return kit with filter is only $70 so I'll probably just go oem on that to make it easier as that's how my hotblast is setup but I built that fan and filter box myself.


The tstat basically controls the damper. Opens damper when tstat calls for heat and closes it when not calling to heat. I am glad I added one because I have the tundra located in the basement and it allows me to control it from upstairs. You should have a pretty easy change over from hotblast to the tundra. What size return do you have? I hope that's at least 12" round. You still going to need to fab something to tie to the tsc provided cold air return I would have fab shop make it all in one piece for you. Just giving you ideas.


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## jb6l6gc

Yes it's 12" round. What is the inlet size on the cold air return kit.  We have a wicked hvac supply place that has every adapter known to man. Square to round etc.  when I install should I change the 8"s to side to side or leave it front to back? I read side to side is preferred in the install manual.  On a plus note just ordered says it'll be at my local store in 2-3 weeks. I don't plan on doing the install until the summer as I have a couple repairs to make to my improperly professionally installed chimney liner. As well do you see any problem me using a 5.5" liner. My hotblast has had no issues with this.


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## Builderml

Should be 15x20 to your 12" round. In my experience the front and left side hole are the hottest. I currently have side by side.I wouldn't use the rear hole as that is the coldest. I would confirm with SBI that one front and one side could be used. I don't see a real issue with your liner. Calls for 6" but sometimes you have to make due with what you have. I would remove that sharp 90 you have at the top of you chimney looks like you may be able to get away with 2- 45* total.


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## jb6l6gc

Builderml said:


> Should be 15x20 to your 12" round. In my experience the front and left side hole are the hottest. I currently have side by side.I wouldn't use the rear hole as that is the coldest. I would confirm with SBI that one front and one side could be used. I don't see a real issue with your liner. Calls for 6" but sometimes you have to make due with what you have. I would remove that sharp 90 you have at the top of you chimney looks like you may be able to get away with 2- 45* total.


It would have to be 1 90 and 1 45. Already thought about doing that


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## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> I would confirm with SBI that one front and one side could be used.



IIRC my manual says that's not approved.  I'd believe them on that one; heat seems too lopsided otherwise, just my opinion. 

I got my thermostat for $5 from Menards.  Heat only, very simple digital.  I don't use it much, probably wouldn't run the wire and holes in the wall if I could redo.  The tstat doesn't know if my furnace is getting too hot, so it will if I hadn't put in overtemp protection.  As shown in post #1132 (page 46), I use the timer to start loads and the "burn coals" switch to burn coals if it's cold out.  About the only thing I use my tstat for is to set it at a temp I think the house will hit a few hours before I wake up to finish the coals.  And I could use the "burn coals" switch for that anyways.  That's just how I operate it; others have different habits just as well.


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## jb6l6gc

I don't think I will bother with the tsat I will just get used to how she runs. Can't be as finicky at the hotblast, that thing took me a while to figure out just right!


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## STIHLY DAN

May want to look at your CTC with your flue pipe.


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## Digger79

Builderml said:


> I wouldn't do that, contact a local HVAC fab shop/contractor (if you have one) and have them make a box/ filter setup for you. You'll also want 2 blank pieces of sheet metal to cover up the two sides you won't be using. If not your stuck with ordering from tsc I guess. Was under $100 total for me and that included a larger return plenum.


I built my cold air return for about 10$ and some duct tape. lol. my fan box had to be shoved into a corner at a 45 so a custom build was required. I just took a few pieces of cheap sheet metal and scrap sheet metal I had cut and formed and duct taped it all together. no filter here. my filter is at the return in the house.


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## jb6l6gc

STIHLY DAN said:


> May want to look at your CTC with your flue pipe.


my clearances are fine thank you, my install was fully certified. Angle of photo is misleading. That's double wall stove pipe and my clearance is well above the required 6".


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## maple1

I don't think it's passing judgement. It's just a heads up on what looks like a possible issue from a picture. If it's not an issue, that's fine - but it does look close in the pic. There has been pics of all kinds of wrong stuff posted at times on here, letting someone know of a possible issue before it really becomes one is a good thing, I think.


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## jb6l6gc

maple1 said:


> I don't think it's passing judgement. It's just a heads up on what looks like a possible issue from a picture. If it's not an issue, that's fine - but it does look close in the pic. There has been pics of all kinds of wrong stuff posted at times on here, letting someone know of a possible issue before it really becomes one is a good thing, I think.


Agreed I edited my post was just a little grumpy waking up this morn. the heating with wood in my house is not something I will ever get complacent about!


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## STIHLY DAN

jb6l6gc said:


> my clearances are fine thank you, my install was fully certified. Angle of photo is misleading. That's double wall stove pipe and my clearance is well above the required 6".



That's great, yes in the pic it looks very close and the size of the pipe did not look to be double wall. Yes, way to many pics on here the last year or so with bad/wrong set ups. The do it yourself wood furnace market seems to be getting more dangerous, everyone is a professional now with the internet.


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## Builderml

STIHLY DAN said:


> The do it yourself wood furnace market seems to be getting more dangerous, everyone is a professional now with the internet.


Wait what?? I am a fully certified u tube board approved heart surgeon. Just can't seem to find my first patient.


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## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> On a plus note just ordered says it'll be at my local store in 2-3 weeks.


Sounds like you have plenty of time. Before taking delivery from the store look at the front face. If the front is welded like I show in post #1179 just refuse it and have them get another one. I am sure you are excited with getting the tundra just make sure you get the new version or you may be disappointed with it. I think it will be the best furnace you can get dollar for dollar now that issues sound like they have been resolved. Also SBI has great customer service so you can rest assured that you will be taken care of in the future.


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## Builderml

On another note, does anyone know what happened to the individual that said SBI was requiring him to get an onsite welder? I wonder how everything played out for him and his situation. I don't remember hearing the end result.


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## Builderml

Brenn you still around or did you head to the Caribbean to stay warm?


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn you still around or did you head to the Caribbean to stay warm?


Yo, reporting fo duty SIR! Whassup?  Nah, I'm here...no vacas for me this time of year...too many water line breaks at work.
I've been playing with getting my new blower motor speed control set up...I'll report on it here shortly.
Carry on...


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## Digger79

agreed. Def best furnace for the $. umm yes the newer units appear solid. I have had one in for about a week and everything seems fine. I made a few additions to help protect things a bit more, u can look back a few posts and see it all. If your looking to ensure the new model there will be a few features. The snap discs should be located on top so you will see a galvanized wire chase on the top of the stove containing the snap discs. Thats a big clue, 2nd there will be a plate bolted on over the HE and not welded as mentioned. As well there should be firebricks up the sides of the loading door. Look for serial numbers above 1500 I am sure you be pretty safe their. The newer model is a killer stove. Got a little creosote this morning but I had the stove tweeked down as tight as I could get her and the insert in the house cause the therm not to call for heat till the middle of the night. whoops. need to open the damper just a touch sooner with the temp controller. just a small pile below flu output on back. I always leave the bottom screw out w a pan under it because I have done this before. lol. Once wood was to wet and house was too warm with no temp controller. now I just need to bump the temp controller up a touch on the low end. 



Builderml said:


> Sounds like you have plenty of time. Before taking delivery from the store look at the front face. If the front is welded like I show in post #1179 just refuse it and have them get another one. I am sure you are excited with getting the tundra just make sure you get the new version or you may be disappointed with it. I think it will be the best furnace you can get dollar for dollar now that issues sound like they have been resolved. Also SBI has great customer service so you can rest assured that you will be taken care of in the future.


----------



## Digger79

Builderml said:


> On another note, does anyone know what happened to the individual that said SBI was requiring him to get an onsite welder? I wonder how everything played out for him and his situation. I don't remember hearing the end result.


He wasn't smart enough to refuse the repair. I was uncomfortable with the method they said they would go about repairing it and told them I was upset they used their client base to test out the first line of Tundra's and find the failures. I said they should have done that ahead of time and I would feel better with a replacement unit with the updated corrections. I was pretty aware of the issues being across the board however and told them I knew about it. They had no reservations about replacing the unit. Refuse the service get it replaced. They will do it if you demand it and the warranty is valid. They had me keep the old stove but I am suppose to remove the serial number plate and mail it back to them so the stove can't be warrantied again.


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> They had me keep the old stove but I am suppose to remove the serial number plate and mail it back to them so the stove can't be warrantied again.


You can bet your boots that they have that number in their system and wouldn't warranty agian anyways...they want the tag back so that they are off they hook if someone continues to use it and something bad happens...or some hack gets hold of it and adds air deflectors, extra ducts, temp controllers, speed controls, plenum, turbulators, etc. etc. etc.


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## Digger79

Builderml said:


> On another note, does anyone know what happened to the individual that said SBI was requiring him to get an onsite welder? I wonder how everything played out for him and his situation. I don't remember hearing the end result.


He wasn't smart enough to refuse the repair. I was uncomfortable with the method they said they would go about repairing it and told them I was upset they used their client base to test out the first line of Tundra's and find the failures. I said they should have done that ahead of time and I would feel better with a replacement unit with the updated corrections. I was pretty aware of the issues being across the board however and told them I knew about it. They had no reservations about replacing the unit. Refuse the service get it replaced. They will do it if you demand it and the warranty is valid. They had me keep the old stove but I am suppose to remove the serial number plate and mail it back to them so the stove can't be warrantied again.


brenndatomu said:


> You can bet your boots that they have that number in their system and wouldn't warranty agian anyways...they want the tag back so that they are off they hook if someone continues to use it and something bad happens...or some hack gets hold of it and adds air deflectors, extra ducts, temp controllers, speed controls, plenum, turbulators, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 174710


yeah I meant liable for any damage the malfunctioning furnace may cause. Yes basically what you said. Correct they won't warranty that serial number again.


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## Digger79

I have yet to take it off and mail it to them. Wonder what happens if I don't? lol. bill me for the replacement stove? lmao. Can't get blood from a turnip! Spent all my money on the stove and chimney already ha! jokes on SBI!


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## Digger79

Ok Brenn just found the build date. I must gave been looking at the design date of the model before. build date on this unit is 22/12/2015. SBI is French so I assume they meant 12/22/2015 in US lingo.


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> build date on this unit is 22/12/2015


Hot off the presses! Where did it ship from? Direct from SBI Canada or their US warehouse?


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Hot off the presses! Where did it ship from? Direct from SBI Canada or their US warehouse?


Directly from SBI in CA. They want'ed to be sure I got the right model. Told them old units still on the shelves so they said we'll ship you one direct to be sure. It does keep making noises similar to cracking sounds but I am finding nothing. looking at every weld inside and out corners, panel, HE and and panels.. nothing.. the sounds are slightly muffled but other day one was a sharp crack. I believe it is the metal parts moving they have allowed to move now where they were welded before. Several things they did not weld this time around not just the HE Door. Also some parts inside they allowed to float like the air shield. I think the HE makes noise as it moves and things rub stick and relieve. I really don't think anything has failed but I'll keep looking just to be sure. Another change they made is at the corners were the damper door cut out comes through the fire box they have drilled round holes at the corners instead of solid cut 90 deg corner. this strengthens the corners quit a bit. I get they did that in a few areas.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Builderml said:


> I think it will be the best furnace you can get dollar for dollar now that issues sound like they have been resolved. Also SBI has great customer service so you can rest assured that you will be taken care of in the future.



We heard this exact statement last year. Hopefully this new designed one actually fixes the problems. Its been years of problems and headaches for the good folks just trying to heat their house economically.


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## Builderml

Digger79, glad you received a replacement. Did they have you fill out a form? Asking size of house,numbers of windows, chimney set-up, on and on. The end result for me was I am trying to heat to large a house so they recommend against replacement and suggest I go bigger on the furnace. Wondering what they told you ?
Also I have serial number 1993 which is "old stock" so I would think any unit the gentleman above should accept from TSC should be well into the 2000's if it is in fact the newest model they send him.


----------



## sloeffle

Do you guys have a hard time burning round locust pieces ? I would say they are around 4 - 5"  around. Been burning a bunch of locust due the cold snap we have been having and I am having a heck of a time keeping it going. The wood has been cut and stacked for at least 3 years. It isn't hissing, so I don't think it is too wet. No MM to verify moisture.


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## laynes69

sloeffle said:


> Do you guys have a hard time burning round locust pieces ? I would say they are around 4 - 5"  around. Been burning a bunch of locust due the cold snap we have been having and I am having a heck of a time keeping it going. The wood has been cut and stacked for at least 3 years. It isn't hissing, so I don't think it is too wet. No MM to verify moisture.


I just cut up a locust tree that was standing dead for probably 10 years. It was bone dry and rock hard. Last night that was my load, with one round at 8 or 10" in diameter, and another at 6". The rest were split on the larger size. All locust, and it carried the house at 71-72 for almost 10 hours last night. When I woke up, there were enough coals to reload. Harder wood like that requires more air. With the heat load on the house last night, the damper was open quite a bit. Locust doesn't offgas as quickly as other woods, slow and hot.


----------



## Digger79

Builderml said:


> Digger79, glad you received a replacement. Did they have you fill out a form? Asking size of house,numbers of windows, chimney set-up, on and on. The end result for me was I am trying to heat to large a house so they recommend against replacement and suggest I go bigger on the furnace. Wondering what they told you ?
> Also I have serial number 1993 which is "old stock" so I would think any unit the gentleman above should accept from TSC should be well into the 2000's if it is in fact the newest model they send him.


yes I filled out a furnace inspection report. my house is 1200 sq ft. I let them have it about how I knew of these things cracking on people across the board and told them they should have corrected the problem first not with a later model. They offered first to repair I expressed concern and they offered up the replacement. Def was a good idea. I feel sorry for anyone who took the repair. You can't fix bad the design flaws truly without rebuilding the unit.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> yes I filled out a furnace inspection report. my house is 1200 sq ft. I let them have it about how I knew of these things cracking on people across the board and told them they should have corrected the problem first not with a later model. They offered first to repair I expressed concern and they offered up the replacement. Def was a good idea. I feel sorry for anyone who took the repair. You can't fix bad the design flaws truly without rebuilding the unit.


I also told them it was heating the house fine. which it was. it was just cracking apart every where. lol. The rate these things at 1500-2500 sqft but that is also being called and add on furnace. I dunno if there intention is for them to heat 2500 stand alone. A company can word things many ways to make them sound better. anything over 2000 sqft standalone would need to be a damn good setup and very very well insulated.  The rating is probably 1500 stand alone and up to 2500 as and add on but they just say 1500-2500. sounds better.


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> I just cut up a locust tree that was standing dead for probably 10 years. It was bone dry and rock hard. Last night that was my load, with one round at 8 or 10" in diameter, and another at 6". The rest were split on the larger size. All locust, and it carried the house at 71-72 for almost 10 hours last night. When I woke up, there were enough coals to reload. Harder wood like that requires more air. With the heat load on the house last night, the damper was open quite a bit. Locust doesn't offgas as quickly as other woods, slow and hot.


I have a hard time burning round logs period.. 10" diameter log?!?! in a stove?? must be a monster. Tundra's won't take large round logs very well. coal up. loose stacked splits seems the best. when you pack it tight you wind up with coal that never burns insulated in ash.


----------



## laynes69

It's a Caddy furnace. One of the largest rounds I've ever burned in it. I expected the same thing with a pile of coals, but was reduced to a fine ash when I woke up. Same firebox as the Tundra.


----------



## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> It's a Caddy furnace. One of the largest rounds I've ever burned in it. I expected the same thing with a pile of coals, but was reduced to a fine ash when I woke up. Same firebox as the Tundra.


lol i'll be damned I gotta try it but some after noon when I'm piddling round in the garage by the stove not over night.


----------



## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> It's a Caddy furnace. One of the largest rounds I've ever burned in it. I expected the same thing with a pile of coals, but was reduced to a fine ash when I woke up. Same firebox as the Tundra.


What was it? Honey Locust? I would think a chunk of like Ash would do well like that but I'd think the dense woods, long burners or coal maker like locust, oak, hickory.. would coal. My Ash gets burnt to a fine whisp of ash but the hickory and oak makes nice coals.


----------



## laynes69

I split everything, but I knew there was going to be a high heat load. I figured what the hell, and it worked well. I wouldn't do it on a 30 degree day.


----------



## laynes69

Digger79 said:


> What was it? Honey Locust? I would think a chunk of like Ash would do well like that but I'd think the dense woods, long burners or coal maker like locust, oak, hickory.. would coal. My Ash gets burnt to a fine whisp of ash but the hickory and oak makes nice coals.


Black locust. When I load for the night, I usually burn some locust but alot of Ash. If I'm working, I don't fill the furnace overnight, or there will be too many coals for the morning. When it's the weekend, I fill the furnace so I get my sleep. I loaded at 10pm last night, and woke at 7:30am to a 72 degree house with enough coals to load and walk away. It was 0° last night. Honestly, it's the first time I've gone that long in those temps, but I've been slowly tightening the house up, and I had primo wood.


----------



## brenndatomu

One thing I have figured out on my Tundra is the only way to get a quick temp rise in the house is to load with a bunch of small splits. The hottest duct temps that I have seen was a load with a bunch of Honey Locust braches on top


----------



## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> I split everything, but I knew there was going to be a high heat load. I figured what the hell, and it worked well. I wouldn't do it on a 30 degree day.


gotcha. makes sense yeah.


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> One thing I have figured out on my Tundra is the only way to get a quick temp rise in the house is to load with a bunch of small splits. The hottest duct temps that I have seen was a load with a bunch of Honey Locust braches on top


Here's how I see it. If I wake up, or check the furnace and there's only a few coals left and the furnace is running, any wood I add can only produce more heat. This morning at 0°, it took about 1/2 hour to start raising the temperature in the house, with 5 large splits. But within that half hour there was enough heat to maintain the current temperature of the home.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> One thing I have figured out on my Tundra is the only way to get a quick temp rise in the house is to load with a bunch of small splits. The hottest duct temps that I have seen was a load with a bunch of Honey Locust braches on top


yup which is why my top down starts get heat fast!


----------



## STIHLY DAN

All EPA units do better with smaller splits, leave the larger ones for shoulder season. Seems backwards but it is science.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> leave the larger ones for shoulder season. Seems backwards but it is science.


Hmm...never thought of it that way before...does seem backwards, but I see what you are saying. 
These are not our fathers wood burners!


----------



## laynes69

I spit my wood on the larger side, but it seasons 2+ years. I always burn larger splits in cold weather, and small splits in the shoulder season. In the shoulder season, I want a short, hot fire. Usually I'll burn limbwood, or I'll split down splits once or twice and make a fire out of those. This was 3/4 load after 10 hours this morning.


----------



## sloeffle

laynes69 said:


> With the heat load on the house last night, the damper was open quite a bit. Locust doesn't offgas as quickly as other woods, slow and hot.


I have my damper set to open about 1/4" when the t-stat calls for heat. Thought about changing it to maybe and 1/8" so I am not sending so much heat up the chimney. It is nice having it set to 1/4" so when I build a fire, I can just walk over and turn the T-stat down or turn it off while I am at home.

@brenndatomu, can you rig something like this up for me...


----------



## TheBigIron

laynes69 said:


> Black locust. When I load for the night, I usually burn some locust but alot of Ash. If I'm working, I don't fill the furnace overnight, or there will be too many coals for the morning. When it's the weekend, I fill the furnace so I get my sleep. I loaded at 10pm last night, and woke at 7:30am to a 72 degree house with enough coals to load and walk away. It was 0° last night. Honestly, it's the first time I've gone that long in those temps, but I've been slowly tightening the house up, and I had primo wood.


@laynes69 have you ever tried hedge?  I had some hedge drop into my stacks and it's dry and burns hot.  I love it so does my stove


----------



## laynes69

The46Zone said:


> @laynes69 have you ever tried hedge?  I had some hedge drop into my stacks and it's dry and burns hot.  I love it so does my stove


Yeah. Burned some that was in the stacks this year. Good stuff.


----------



## Builderml

Sorry I'm clueless, you say hedgewood and I'm thinking you trimmed your hedges and are burning those. What is it ?


----------



## Builderml

I just need to share the days event. So the wife was home from work today and I was at work. Told her she was in charge of the stove.  So as I walked in the door she says to me I can't get the house warmer than 68. I said well did you put some wood on? Yes I did, she says. So I walk down stairs to take a look at the stove and it's 3/4 full of coals. I just shook my head . I asked her what the heck did you do? She replies I couldn't get the house to warm up so I kept putting wood on.. All I can say is she tried even tho I did give her some chit about it. I tried burning them down as much as I could but got sick of it. Even after burning them down for well over 1 
hour I still shoved 1/2 a 5 gallon bucket out.. She tries to play redneck sometimes but you either got it or you don't.


----------



## lexybird

Hedge hedge Apple monkey balls is same as Osage orange . It is super dense super strong and burns super hot . Osage is one of the best top woods possible in North America for firewood  .Farmers used this around the perimeter of their property to secure it ,it also grows thick and has thorns making it ideal as a " hedge"


----------



## jb6l6gc

Sounds like mine. Mostly she's ok a playing redneck, just hasn't quite immersed herself into rural like style as I have since we moved here!


----------



## Digger79

Builderml said:


> Sorry I'm clueless, you say hedgewood and I'm thinking you trimmed your hedges and are burning those. What is it ?


osage. or hedge apple


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I just need to share the days event. So the wife was home from work today and I was at work. Told her she was in charge of the stove.  So as I walked in the door she says to me I can't get the house warmer than 68. I said well did you put some wood on? Yes I did, she says. So I walk down stairs to take a look at the stove and it's 3/4 full of coals. I just shook my head . I asked her what the heck did you do? She replies I couldn't get the house to warm up so I kept putting wood on.. All I can say is she tried even tho I did give her some chit about it. I tried burning them down as much as I could but got sick of it. Even after burning them down for well over 1
> hour I still shoved 1/2 a 5 gallon bucket out.. She tries to play redneck sometimes but you either got it or you don't.


I gotta say, I really struggle (a lot) with how little heat comes of of these things with a belly full of SCREAMING HOT coals. Just blows my mind...just makes no sense


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> I gotta say, I really struggle (a lot) with how little heat comes of of these things with a belly full of SCREAMING HOT coals. Just blows my mind...just makes no sense


its the way the coals burn. its not the turbine going on in there running hot air across a plenum designed and built for high heat.. to take high heat. So when its just coals radiating heat the plenum can't get hot enough. If the door wasn't glass more heat would be gotten outta those coals. The plenum would get much much hotter during surge though. so would of course have to be built stronger. I guess its cause they need the heat to radiate away fast. Must be hard  to do and still build strong/thick enough HE and top to fire box and such. I dunno


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> its the way the coals burn. its not the turbine going on in there running hot air across a plenum designed and built for high heat.. to take high heat. So when its just coals radiating heat the plenum can't get hot enough. If the door wasn't glass more heat would be gotten outta those coals. The plenum would get much much hotter during surge though. so would of course have to be built stronger. I guess its cause they need the heat to radiate away fast. Must be hard  to do and still build strong/thick enough HE and top to fire box and such. I dunno


and the stronger you build it the slower it releases heat. The steel and HE box.. I would think.


----------



## laynes69

I get much more heat from the coals now, then when I had the old hotblast. While the coaling stage doesn't have the output of the offgas stage, it's still enough (at least for us) to keep the house warm.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> its the way the coals burn. its not the turbine going on in there running hot air across a plenum designed and built for high heat.. to take high heat. So when its just coals radiating heat the plenum can't get hot enough. If the door wasn't glass more heat would be gotten outta those coals. The plenum would get much much hotter during surge though. so would of course have to be built stronger. I guess its cause they need the heat to radiate away fast. Must be hard  to do and still build strong/thick enough HE and top to fire box and such. I dunno


Mmm, I dunno man, there are plenty of wood furnaces out there built like a tank, make Tundra look like a tuna can, but still heat well on just coals. My Yukon is one of them...almost 1000#.


----------



## Digger79

Quieted the noisy damper today.
Wired in a timer and a plug for power for multiple things a vacuum being one.


----------



## Digger79

The flu setup


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Mmm, I dunno man, there are plenty of wood furnaces out there built like a tank, make Tundra look like a tuna can, but still heat well on just coals. My Yukon is one of them...almost 1000#.


I don't really know either just guessing around but yeah Tundra doesn't get much heat out of coals only fire so must be the way the plenum is working/built. only variable really makes sense.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Mmm, I dunno man, there are plenty of wood furnaces out there built like a tank, make Tundra look like a tuna can, but still heat well on just coals. My Yukon is one of them...almost 1000#.


How much of the yukon is steel? how much is cast iron? I get a lot of heat of of the insert but thats because most the heat comes from the glass. lol the blower just blows around the stove of course for a plenum if you will. I bet steel puts of less heat cause it cools faster. Iron will hold it longer. Are the old boilers and stoves you say put of more heat from coals more iron or more steel built?


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> How much of the yukon is steel? how much is cast iron? I get a lot of heat of of the insert but thats because most the heat comes from the glass. lol the blower just blows around the stove of course for a plenum if you will. I bet steel puts of less heat cause it cools faster. Iron will hold it longer. Are the old boilers and stoves you say put of more heat from coals more iron or more steel built?


All steel...well, except for the 2-300# of firebrick in 'er. It is actually similar in design (except the secondary air system) to Tundra. The exact configuration is different, but the over all design similar


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> All steel...well, except for the 2-300# of firebrick in 'er. It is actually similar in design (except the secondary air system) to Tundra. The exact configuration is different, but the over all design similar


200-300lbs worth of fire brick? wow! no wonder it puts out so much heat. I was just thinking maybe tundra needs another layer of fire bricks but ud need to beef up the plenum some more to take it and increase the whole box size so not to loose volume in box. HeatPro is a monster furnace. maybe they put to layers in that one! doubt it. so you have multiple layers or just a giant firebox in that thing?


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> 200-300lbs worth of fire brick?


Yep.


Digger79 said:


> so you have multiple layers or just a giant firebox in that thing?


Giant firebox...giant furnace actually! The firebricks are pretty serious too, "high duty" (3000*+ rated) 2" thick...very heavy


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Yep.
> 
> Giant firebox...giant furnace actually! The firebricks are pretty serious too, "high duty" (3000*+ rated) 2" thick...very heavy


wow.. must be what you get when you start getting into 6-10k wood units. I seen some. pretty fancy. an huge. gasifying down draft boilers, lotsa cool stuff. Rocket mass stoves, Rocket boilers.


----------



## Digger79

30k wood gasifiers that power your entire home with 5 KW of power.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> I gotta say, I really struggle (a lot) with how little heat comes of of these things with a belly full of SCREAMING HOT coals. Just blows my mind...just makes no sense



Air over the coals is the reason. When you get air under them they are like a forge. Remember spidey's  posts.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Air over the coals is the reason. When you get air under them they are like a forge. Remember spidey's  posts.


Hahaha, yes who could forget spideys stovace...epic! I miss spidey...I checked on him...he got sucked in the vortex of the political forum...those guys rarely come up for air it seems.
I guess coals only give radiant heat well, not convective, eh?


----------



## centennial60

STIHLY DAN said:


> Air over the coals is the reason. When you get air under them they are like a forge. Remember spidey's  posts.



Yep coals really seem to need air from below.  That's why the coals in the tundra just sit there and hide in the ash for hours...or days...


----------



## Digger79

centennial60 said:


> Yep coals really seem to need air from below.  That's why the coals in the tundra just sit there and hide in the ash for hours...or days...



So like I was thinking a while back Brenndatamo, we need a blower set to put a slight breeze under those coals. Then furnace can be overloaded more often or dampered longer.. Sumthin. There's got to be benefit at certain times to burn out over built coal base. I try to avoid the over built coals but cause long  periods w little heat while coals are finishing off. Forced air into coals at that time could be handy.


----------



## Digger79

9 1/2 hrs after load of ash hickory mix. Pretty full bout 7/8. Only down to 25 last night. House was 67-68 this morning ar 7 am. May lower the draft sligthly. Got oil in flu other day, dripped out flu pipe. Over loaded under used somehow. Warm day i think too much wood an temp controller wasnt set right.


----------



## centennial60

I'm thinking for next year I'll have some cottonwood or pine ready and use that to burn coals down in the evenings..see how that works.
Digger79, we are having some warmer temps here too. I noticed last night after a new load of wood fired at high fire for 20 mins (temp controller set at 525-625°) died down to a smolder at idle. Draft was low -.04. So I placed a paper clip on the draft door and that was enough to bring the fire back up to a nice cruise. I think my chimney is marginal at 32° and above.


----------



## Digger79

centennial60 said:


> I'm thinking for next year I'll have some cottonwood or pine ready and use that to burn coals down in the evenings..see how that works.
> Digger79, we are having some warmer temps here too. I noticed last night after a new load of wood fired at high fire for 20 mins (temp controller set at 525-625°) died down to a smolder at idle. Draft was low -.04. So I placed a paper clip on the draft door and that was enough to bring the fire back up to a nice cruise. I think my chimney is marginal at 32° and above.



I use a baro damper to control draft. No paperclip is needed or useful w my setup. 15' class A chimney draws real hard. It is setup to over draft then baro stops it from over drafting. So when weather is warmer my chimney will still draft properly. My creosote/oil issue was cause I had temp controller set to low. Got no draft issues currently during warmmer weather or near end of cycles. Working very well. Cruises for 30 mins or so then opens up an the length of time damper stays closed ir draft holds, gets longer w each cycle. After a few cycles of temp controller firing, dampee stays shut an draft holds for hours an hours. Maybe 3-4. Pending the load of course. Type of wood, kind of splits, amount an so on.


----------



## laynes69

Digger, a 15' chimney should not require a barometric damper. Draft will peak with the damper open, but should quickly fall when the damper closes and temps level out. I think part of the problem is a short chimney and the use of a baro.


----------



## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Digger, a 15' chimney should not require a barometric damper. Draft will peak with the damper open, but should quickly fall when the damper closes and temps level out. I think part of the problem is a short chimney and the use of a baro.



Not sure I understand cause if I dont dial it down with the damper it goes way over -.06 like up near -.09 no good. Was told by Brenndatamo anything over -.08 is not safe for the Tundra according to SBI. Currently Im not having any issues honestly.


----------



## 3fordasho

Digger79 said:


> Not sure I understand cause if I dont dial it down with the damper it goes way over -.06 like up near -.09 no good. Was told by Brenndatamo anything over -.08 is not safe for the Tundra according to SBI. Currently Im not having any issues honestly.




I have about a 15' chimney and got the same results, draft goes high with the air inlet open but then settles to right in spec with the air inlet closed. 
Since I run my Tundra with air inlet closed 98%+ of the time during active burn* I called it good and did not install a barometric damper.

*active burn, full or medium load actively outgassing, lots of secondary action.


----------



## centennial60

Digger, 3fordasho, are you running a lined chimney or double layer insulated? I'm just running into an 8x8 clay lined 15ish foot located in the house. I'm wondering if it might maintain draft better with a liner.


----------



## Digger79

Well i know i saw -.08 and it bumped to -.09 almost -.10 a few times. As fragile as these Tundras can be it worries me w hickory loaded full it will overdraft. I guess I dont see the issue w having it in my setup cause the baro damper falls shut hours before draft gets below spec.  So its not even affecting anything after the surge cycle really. Pops open a little here n there specially with wind. When wind blows hard it cause chimney to bounce way up over draft too. I have learned a ton on this site an specifically from brenndatamo so I will remain open to what you guys are saying an try to see if I feel comfortable with baro locked shut tonight and see how it does. I dunno getting super long burns w damper shut as is an house is 71 rt now still after loading mostly ash at 6:30 am. Brenndatamo what you say about all this?


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Not sure I understand cause if I dont dial it down with the damper it goes way over -.06 like up near -.09 no good. Was told by Brenndatamo anything over -.08 is not safe for the Tundra according to SBI. Currently Im not having any issues honestly.


What about when the damper is open? I use timer to hold damper open for 30 mins when loading. Gives time to get surface moisture totallt out. During that period im worried it could get hotter than stove can take.


----------



## Digger79

centennial60 said:


> Digger, 3fordasho, are you running a lined chimney or double layer insulated? I'm just running into an 8x8 clay lined 15ish foot located in the house. I'm wondering if it might maintain draft better with a liner.


Yes class A double wall rock wool insulated. Yes u are loosing draft cause heat rises. Hotter it is faster air rises. U need an insulated liner or double wall insulated pipe is better. You will notice night and day difference. Def your problem w loosing draft.


----------



## 3fordasho

centennial60 said:


> Digger, 3fordasho, are you running a lined chimney or double layer insulated? I'm just running into an 8x8 clay lined 15ish foot located in the house. I'm wondering if it might maintain draft better with a liner.



I'm running Selkirk Supervent 6"  SS double wall with the insulation between walls.  The stuff Menards sells.


----------



## Digger79

3fordasho said:


> I'm running Selkirk Supervent 6"  SS double wall with the insulation between walls.  The stuff Menards sells.


Same stuff on mine. 2100 deg insulated class A. Selkirk supervent.


----------



## 3fordasho

Digger79 said:


> What about when the damper is open? I use timer to hold damper open for 30 mins when loading. Gives time to get surface moisture totallt out. During that period im worried it could get hotter than stove can take.



I use the timer method as well.  I also monitor flue temps and close the air inlet at what ever temp I select on my add on temperature control.
I've detailed my add on temp control earlier in this thread.   On one of my installs I shut it down at 625F, the other slightly less (different flue/temp probe set ups result in different results on what I feel is too hot)


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Same stuff on mine. 2100 deg insulated class A. Selkirk supervent.


Hey 3fordasho how high does your draft get?? Have you looked the stove over reall close?? It is very possible it has cracks if your draft ever got above -.09. My first tundra that has been replaced over drafted so hard the top section of chimney turned rainbow colors! Still think we dont need dampers? I dunno im no expert and much of what I know I recenrly learned on here an from Brenndatamo but im pretty sure rainbow colors in steel means over heated.


----------



## 3fordasho

Digger79 said:


> Hey 3fordasho how high does your draft get?? Have you looked the stove over reall close?? It is very possible it has cracks if your draft ever got above -.09. My first tundra that has been replaced over drafted so hard the top section of chimney turned rainbow colors! Still think we dont need dampers? I dunno im no expert and much of what I know I recenrly learned on here an from Brenndatamo but im pretty sure rainbow colors in steel means over heated.




My draft would approach .09-.1 on a full load with open air inlet, normal as far as I am concerned.   More heat up the flue = more draft. If I intended to run it wide open all the time I would install a barometric damper.  I would also triple my wood consumption.

I have no cracking.  It is the reason I installed my flue temp monitoring control from the start and also run the furnace in inlet closed mode as much as possible.  The furnace is most efficient in this mode and what ever heat it's putting out is what I get.  It's the guys that have a thermostat hooked up that holds that air inlet open for 50% of the burn that get the cracks.


----------



## 3fordasho

Digger79 said:


> Hey 3fordasho how high does your draft get?? Have you looked the stove over reall close?? It is very possible it has cracks if your draft ever got above -.09. My first tundra that has been replaced over drafted so hard the top section of chimney turned rainbow colors! Still think we dont need dampers? I dunno im no expert and much of what I know I recenrly learned on here an from Brenndatamo but im pretty sure rainbow colors in steel means over heated.




I get the rainbow colors at the top too, but it disappears every summer when it rains.  It's not heat dis-coloration.


----------



## laynes69

Digger, how strong of heat demand is needed on your home? I'll get our furnace up to operating temperatures, then when the damper closes, it won't call for heat until the coaling stage hits. Like 3fordasho, our damper remains closed a majority of the time. I'm not running a barometric damper, but I've closed off my secondaries about 2/3 and my damper opens a fraction it did from factory. My draft is .1+ and the fire remains stable.


----------



## Digger79

3fordasho said:


> My draft would approach .09-.1 on a full load with open air inlet, normal as far as I am concerned.   More heat up the flue = more draft. If I intended to run it wide open all the time I would install a barometric damper.  I would also triple my wood consumption.
> 
> I have no cracking.  It is the reason I installed my flue temp monitoring control from the start and also run the furnace in inlet closed mode as much as possible.  The furnace is most efficient in this mode and what ever heat it's putting out is what I get.  It's the guys that have a thermostat hooked up that holds that air inlet open for 50% of the burn that get the cracks.



Ah ha! I see. I use a thermostat but it doesnt cause the stove to run wide open all the time. Either way if it didnt open house temps would drop. Currently its stays damper shut most time and for 3-4 hours if no heat call from therm. I use the therm but stove is controlled beyond that. My high limit over rides therm way before it gets near too hot. Im learning. I dont think the baro is causing me any issues though an is an extra protection so prob gunna stay. It also keeps fire from surging up so damn fast. The slower the surge can go the longer the load can last. Specially if house is at or close to temp upon loading. I will only achieve higher draft during the initial load surg an am not to crazy bout -.10 draft on my stove. I will not gain anymore draft when air inlet damper is close by getting rid of the baro damper. Its holds good draft and baro is shut by time it drops below -.06. I'll play w it a little tonight, tighten it up some but it's probably staying. My first tundra cracked all over the place an box never got over 500 flu never got hot except one time an i caught it, no cracks happened at that point. It cracked because of design flaws. I have the replacement unit an does not get anywhere near as hot on outside an top as well multiple things been done to stop the cracking. Therm has nothing to do with stove cracking IMO so long as all other controls are proper and stove is built right. The first 2000 units had problems accross the board. No matter what the setup.


----------



## Digger79

3fordasho said:


> My draft would approach .09-.1 on a full load with open air inlet, normal as far as I am concerned.   More heat up the flue = more draft. If I intended to run it wide open all the time I would install a barometric damper.  I would also triple my wood consumption.
> 
> I have no cracking.  It is the reason I installed my flue temp monitoring control from the start and also run the furnace in inlet closed mode as much as possible.  The furnace is most efficient in this mode and what ever heat it's putting out is what I get.  It's the guys that have a thermostat hooked up that holds that air inlet open for 50% of the burn that get the cracks.


My inlet usually doesnt open and stay open until after bout 5-6 hrs during 25 deg n up. When it gets down in teens n single i get bout 4 hrs before house calls for heat then it shuts again but never for long then stays open after that. House needs heat! Lol


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Hahaha, yes who could forget spideys stovace...epic! I miss spidey...I checked on him...he got sucked in the vortex of the political forum...those guys rarely come up for air it seems.
> I guess coals only give radiant heat well, not convective, eh?



Lol. I did too.


----------



## Digger79

3fordasho said:


> I get the rainbow colors at the top too, but it disappears every summer when it rains.  It's not heat dis-coloration.


Sweet thanks


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Sweet thanks


I been asking bout that rainbow coloring for weeks on here! Lol 2 times at least! Thank god someone finally let me know its not permanant from high heat. I also got a lot of suit staining at top an some wood oil on outside of pipe. I think it builds up on the outter edge of cap an wind blows it on chimney as drips. It seems the more I run w inlet shut no matter how good the draft, the more wood oil I find in around flu an chimney. This kinda makes sense cause we r gasifying wood which makes crude oil and ignitable gas. I played round w gasifying wood few years ago similar to the wood gas generators. Worked! I made syn gas an lit it right up! Lol


----------



## Digger79

3fordasho u got the original tundra or the updated model? One thing I can say about the newer model its much stronger. fan comes on almost rt away and basically stays on until last few hours of burn then cycles off n on. Also w the high limit switch they have now an its location over drafting that stove is pretty much impossible. U almost dnt need temp controller but still has some use. Ill mess w that baro but if I take it out that means more wood will get burnt. It helps slow the draft but does not ever cause underdrafting. If draft is low baro was shut long time before that.


----------



## Digger79

After 12 hrs exactly. House dropped to 64 deg. Loaded at 7 am. House was 68 deg at loading. Never got over 71 in house all day. I have wireless therms, cameras, furnace controls..gas furnace.. Basically I can monitor visually and control the wood n gas furnace both on my phone. Camera is only on wood furnace and dials, gas I just monitor the wireless therm for that unit. Got wifi therms on both. I did not load properly for the weather. For some reason thought it was gunna be warm today. Woops! Was like 75% White Ash loaded. Not much hickory.


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## Digger79

I built a Brenndatamo fire! Lol


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Digger, how strong of heat demand is needed on your home? I'll get our furnace up to operating temperatures, then when the damper closes, it won't call for heat until the coaling stage hits. Like 3fordasho, our damper remains closed a majority of the time. I'm not running a barometric damper, but I've closed off my secondaries about 2/3 and my damper opens a fraction it did from factory. My draft is .1+ and the fire remains stable.


Heat demand is pretty high. I don't own I rent unfortunately. I did insulate the attic with near and r-90 blown in ... lol not kidding I damn near filled it up! House is real bad drafty windows are horrible. One window you could see thru to the outside and not thru the glass. lol. I have wrapped windows in plastic, sealed up as much draft as I can but its every where and I don't think the walls are insulated in areas of the home. Certainly not properly at least the attic had R-13 2x4 wall bats laid in 2x6 joists. My house is a crummy built little 1200 sqft'er. Its gotten much better as I worked on it but my first winter here years ago cost over $2000 to heat... I know tell me about it. part of the problem was squirrel nest in the duct lines and disconnect duct work under the house and a huge split in the furnace plenum for the gas furnace. Even with fixing that propane was still running me 1500 at least a year. So I tried elect oil radiant, cost went down to like 8-900, then I got the drolet insert in the fireplace.. lol really I can heat my house with it alone and actually way better than the Tundra but thats cause Tundra is actually in a detached garage 2' next to the house and piped in thru the crawl.. lmao cold air come out the kitchen window. I have a upper window and a lower cold air register in my kitchen windows. Horrible place for cold air return. Odor wise that is. Kitchen are bad but my house is a studio with bedrooms added on. Kitchen, laundry, living all in same big room.(the old cabin part the bedrooms are modern construction.) Any ways as long as I can be home drolet insert heats house fine loading every 6 hours no matter how cold. but Im gone 8-12 hours often durning the winter so the Tundra heats the garage and the house very well for it location far as the house goes. Heat demand is not as bad now and durning real cold weather I burn the inside stove some and the house stays in the mid 70's. I been letting things get cold to see what the Tundra can do as I improve on it and the ducting as I can. Getting really good honestly. It heats the house alone just fine unless its like -10. even single digits it hangs on but didn't test that on being gone beyond 8 hrs.


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## brenndatomu

centennial60 said:


> Digger, 3fordasho, are you running a lined chimney or double layer insulated? I'm just running into an 8x8 clay lined 15ish foot located in the house. I'm wondering if it might maintain draft better with a liner.


You will run better with a 6" liner...even more so if it is insulated. My Tundra does OK on a 8" insulated liner in a 27-28' tall chimney...but I do notice draft start to die off above 40*. My other stove is on a 6" insulated liner, only 17-18' tall, and it will still draft OK clear up to 60*


Digger79 said:


> Brenndatamo what you say about all this?


Well, I have wrestled with the whole baro, or not, issue...Yukon says that you absolutely have to use one on their stuff (they run a pretty low draft, -.o3" WC) so I started out with one, but over time I have gotten away from using it most of the time. I still have it installed, but I keep it covered with HD aluminum foil unless I see draft getting high, then I will use it. I had to use it a few weeks back when we had the real cold spell there. 
I like to use a key damper instead because of the creosote potential with a baro (which is less running a clean burning Tundra...and using real dry wood) but the key damper makes me nervous if I am allowing the tstat to control the intake damper...if heat is called for later in the burn, when draft is already dying down, and then the intake damper opens, with the key damper closed...potential CO in the house, not good! That's why SBI says not to use them.
How's that for a convoluted answer?!


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> I built a Brenndatamo fire! Lol
> 
> View attachment 175050


Now THAT is cool!


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Digger, how strong of heat demand is needed on your home? I'll get our furnace up to operating temperatures, then when the damper closes, it won't call for heat until the coaling stage hits. Like 3fordasho, our damper remains closed a majority of the time. I'm not running a barometric damper, but I've closed off my secondaries about 2/3 and my damper opens a fraction it did from factory. My draft is .1+ and the fire remains stable.


Heat demand is pretty high. I don't own I rent unfortunately. I did insulate the attic with near and r-90 blown in ... lol not kidding I damn near filled it up! House is real bad drafty windows are horrible. One window you could see thru to the outside and not thru the glass. lol. I have wrapped windows in plastic, sealed up as much draft as I can but its every where and I don't think the walls are insulated areas of the home. Certainly not properly at least the attic had R-13 2x4 wall bats laid in 2x6 joists. My house is a crummy built little 1200 sqft'er. Its gotten much better as I worked on it but my first winter here years ago cost over $2000 to heat... I know tell me about it. part of the problem was squirrel nest in the duct lines and disconnect duct work under the house and a huge split in the furnace plenum for the gas furnace. Even with fixing that propane was still running me 1500 at least a year. So I tried elect oil radiant, cost went down to like 8-900, then I got the drolet insert in the fireplace.. lol really I can heat my house with it alone and actually way better than the Tundra but thats cause Tundra is actually in a detached garage 2' next to the house and piped in thru the crawl.. lmao cold air come out the kitchen window. I have a upper window and a lower cold air register in my kitchen windows. Horrible place for cold air return. Odor wise that is. Kitchen are bad but my house is a studio with bedrooms added on. Kitchen, laundry, living all in same big room.(the old cabin part the bedrooms are modern construction.) Any ways as long as I can be home drolet insert heats house fine loading every 6 hours no matter how cold. but Im gone 8-12 hours often durning the winter so the Tundra heats the garage and the house very well for it location far as the house goes. Heat demand is not as bad now and durning real cold weather I burn the inside stove some and the house stays in the mid 70's. I been letting things get cold to see what the Tundra can do as I improve on it and the ducting as I can. Getting really good honestly. It heats the house alone just fine unless its like -10. even single digits it hangs on but didn't test that on being gone beyond 8 hrs. By closing of your secondaries and open the main damper a fraction you are reversing the process slightly to old wood burning are you not? Your letting more air into the coals and pulling less thru the secondary tubes. I would never choke down the secondaries but then again sound like you cranked your draft way up. .10 steadily is crazy high so you better shut the air intakes down a ton or you'd be in big trouble I believe running at those draft speeds all the time. This is making more sense. You seem to be twerking that air down super tight but letting it scream up the flu, or letting flu get real hot so it pulls harder on your super tight inlets. My inlets are factory other than timing controls. I got a nice 12 hour burn out of a 75% ash load today and house only dropped to 64 from around 71 at it highest today. Thats pretty good I'd say considering its in the garage heating the separate garage and the house. barely hit 33 here today. This morning when I loaded the house was around 67-68. So seems the draft speed kept me from waisting wood and heated the house relatively efficiently for not being home. only had to rise it 5-6 deg to get back to 70. Im really curious and interested in what your doing keeping that draft high and inlets real tight though. Curious how much better it may be working for you. Keep in mind our setups far as location and heating demands are probably quite different.


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## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


> Now THAT is cool!


I got up late this AM, I raked coals to the front, loaded wood, set timer, and was out the door in no time. So easy to run these things! I would have been late to work if I got up late when I was running the Yukon


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> You will run better with a 6" liner...even more so if it is insulated. My Tundra does OK on a 8" insulated liner in a 27-28' tall chimney...but I do notice draft start to die off above 40*. My other stove is on a 6" insulated liner, only 17-18' tall, and it will still draft OK clear up to 60*
> 
> Well, I have wrestled with the whole baro, or not, issue...Yukon says that you absolutely have to use one on their stuff (they run a pretty low draft, -.o3" WC) so I started out with one, but over time I have gotten away from using it most of the time. I still have it installed, but I keep it covered with HD aluminum foil unless I see draft getting high, then I will use it. I had to use it a few weeks back when we had the real cold spell there.
> I like to use a key damper instead because of the creosote potential with a baro (which is less running a clean burning Tundra...and using real dry wood) but the key damper makes me nervous if I am allowing the tstat to control the intake damper...if heat is called for later in the burn, when draft is already dying down, and then the intake damper opens, with the key damper closed...potential CO in the house, not good! That's why SBI says not to use them.
> How's that for a convoluted answer?!


lol perfect. I don't like inline dampers after using baro's personally but thats just me.  no what you say makes sense. It may not be needed and honestly with what SBI did with the high limit I don't see how you could over draft this stove if you put gasoline in it! lmao ok, okay thats silly but you get the Idea.


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## Digger79

all this baro talk the reality I just mentioned to brenndatomu is the newer model tundras are virtually impossible to over draft anyhow.. With the settings and locations of the high limit and fan switch it just won't go up to .10 for long and never over. I just loaded it with basically kindling stacked in a tower in the middle of mostly ash and few hickory splits. stacked it tall near top of box. Went ahead and let it rip with baro tightened down. You guys 3fordasho and such are correct. it didn't go over .10, this newer model didn't even get that hot before the high limit hit anyhow and shut er down. now this was a light load but pretty damn hot n fast. honestly one of the cooler burns there Brenndatomu(we gotta shorten that name  ), it filled the entire furnace with huge rolling flames like I'd never quite seen it! lol. all that room instead of full of wood sure allowed big billows of flames to roll around. was cool but has only driven the house up like 2-3 degrees in a littler under and hour. I could of made it a little bigger with the real thin splits.. around 2" thick but wanted to be careful. I am sure even with the high limit set so low and fan coming on so soon if you loaded this thing full with lets say dry brush.. you could achieve damage or over draft and issues.


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> I got up late this AM, I raked coals to the front, loaded wood, set timer, and was out the door in no time. So easy to run these things! I would have been late to work if I got up late when I was running the Yukon


yeah this setup you helped me tune in is great. Takes some of the fun out of it when your milling around the house but yeah you don't need and hour to properly fire the stove or 30 mins whatever it may take pending your methods. yup 5 mins and go. I still leave the door cracked for a few minutes until the flames fill up. My loads now take about 5 minutes if coals are hotter and often they are it can take as little as 30 sec to a minute for me to feel comfortable shutting the door and leaving the house.


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## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Heat demand is pretty high. I don't own I rent unfortunately. I did insulate the attic with near and r-90 blown in ... lol not kidding I damn near filled it up! House is real bad drafty windows are horrible. One window you could see thru to the outside and not thru the glass. lol. I have wrapped windows in plastic, sealed up as much draft as I can but its every where and I don't think the walls are insulated areas of the home. Certainly not properly at least the attic had R-13 2x4 wall bats laid in 2x6 joists. My house is a crummy built little 1200 sqft'er. Its gotten much better as I worked on it but my first winter here years ago cost over $2000 to heat... I know tell me about it. part of the problem was squirrel nest in the duct lines and disconnect duct work under the house and a huge split in the furnace plenum for the gas furnace. Even with fixing that propane was still running me 1500 at least a year. So I tried elect oil radiant, cost went down to like 8-900, then I got the drolet insert in the fireplace.. lol really I can heat my house with it alone and actually way better than the Tundra but thats cause Tundra is actually in a detached garage 2' next to the house and piped in thru the crawl.. lmao cold air come out the kitchen window. I have a upper window and a lower cold air register in my kitchen windows. Horrible place for cold air return. Odor wise that is. Kitchen are bad but my house is a studio with bedrooms added on. Kitchen, laundry, living all in same big room.(the old cabin part the bedrooms are modern construction.) Any ways as long as I can be home drolet insert heats house fine loading every 6 hours no matter how cold. but Im gone 8-12 hours often durning the winter so the Tundra heats the garage and the house very well for it location far as the house goes. Heat demand is not as bad now and durning real cold weather I burn the inside stove some and the house stays in the mid 70's. I been letting things get cold to see what the Tundra can do as I improve on it and the ducting as I can. Getting really good honestly. It heats the house alone just fine unless its like -10. even single digits it hangs on but didn't test that on being gone beyond 8 hrs. By closing of your secondaries and open the main damper a fraction you are reversing the process slightly to old wood burning are you not? Your letting more air into the coals and pulling less thru the secondary tubes. I would never choke down the secondaries but then again sound like you cranked your draft way up. .10 steadily is crazy high so you better shut the air intakes down a ton or you'd be in big trouble I believe running at those draft speeds all the time. This is making more sense. You seem to be twerking that air down super tight but letting it scream up the flu, or letting flu get real hot so it pulls harder on your super tight inlets. My inlets are factory other than timing controls. I got a nice 12 hour burn out of a 75% ash load today and house only dropped to 64 from around 71 at it highest today. Thats pretty good I'd say considering its in the garage heating the separate garage and the house. barely hit 33 here today. This morning when I loaded the house was around 67-68. So seems the draft speed kept me from waisting wood and heated the house relatively efficiently for not being home. only had to rise it 5-6 deg to get back to 70. Im really curious and interested in what your doing keeping that draft high and inlets real tight though. Curious how much better it may be working for you. Keep in mind our setups far as location and heating demands are probably quite different.


Holy crap! I sound like a 5th grader.. no a 1st grader when I try to type messages on here on my phone. lol. And I type stuff and finish typing stuff later so apparently it gets pretty lengthy like several posts. lol. I'll work on that.


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## laynes69

Geez.....I wake up, walk past the thermostat and open it. I walk to the basement, remove ash, load the woodburner and go upstairs. I'll shower, pack lunch and before walking out the door, set the thermostat and leave. It's that easy. If I forget, it's no problem. The house will hit the 1 or 2 degree increase and close the damper. If I'm home, it might be 72 in the house when I wake up. I will set the thermostat to 73 or 74, load and let it go. By the time things get hot, the damper closes, the house hits it's setpoint and I don't touch it till later.


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Digger, a 15' chimney should not require a barometric damper. Draft will peak with the damper open, but should quickly fall when the damper closes and temps level out. I think part of the problem is a short chimney and the use of a baro.


hey Laynes69 and 3fordasho.. Are your saying your inlet dampers stay closed most the burn. How long exactly? 8 hrs? 10? I get 8-12 hr burns. I have plenty of coals at 12,13,even 14 hours if I'm burning better stuff like Hickory. Man I love that stuff! lol. Are your inlets staying open in the last few hours or hour of the burns? again mine currently is set to cycle and keep draft ideal. draft goes down below -.04 inlet opens. Draft gets back up to -.06 I shut it back down. This is what I been shooting for lately trying to get it to run at -.05 as much long as possible. This cycle only occurs once or twice depending if its a full load or a half load. Then the damper rides shut till the last 2-3 hours of the burns then cycles a few times again and stays open after that. Seems I am maintaining a -.05 draft as long as possible. Are there better methods that produce more efficiency? Like high draft and low inlet air? laynes69 thats your setup right? high -.10+ draft and secondaries choked way down damper barely opens and mostly stays shut? I guess I'm trying to operate as close to SBI's recommendations as possible. I mean they did have engineers design these things but then again they had a bunch of them crack! lol. I doubt that was the engineers fault. somehow I doubt it.


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Geez.....I wake up, walk past the thermostat and open it. I walk to the basement, remove ash, load the woodburner and go upstairs. I'll shower, pack lunch and before walking out the door, set the thermostat and leave. It's that easy. If I forget, it's no problem. The house will hit the 1 or 2 degree increase and close the damper. If I'm home, it might be 72 in the house when I wake up. I will set the thermostat to 73 or 74, load and let it go. By the time things get hot, the damper closes, the house hits it's setpoint and I don't touch it till later.


I think you have a stronger better built stove than my Tundra. Your talking about a Caddy right?


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## sloeffle

@laynes69 How much gap do you have between your damper and stove ? I changed mine tonight to maybe an 1/8th of an inch and it seemed to burn pretty efficiently ( very little smoke out of the chimney ) without sending a bunch of heat up the chimney.

I also messed around with using smaller splits. You definitely get a lot more heat faster with smaller splits.


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## laynes69

My damper stays open maybe a 1/16th of an inch. The manual does specify to adjust based on fuel. Smaller splits will require less air, larger hardwoods will require a little more. Just like a few others, my furnace never runs wide open unless it's on a reload and that's no more than a half hour, which half of that is used to take off. When the damper closes, heat output increases. Occasionally it will open within the first hour or two, but for only a couple minutes to satisfy the thermostat when it's cold. If any furnace needs to run full bore for an extended period of time, it's too small. On the coaling stage however, that's completely different. 

I choose to reduce the amount of incoming air to imitate a shorter chimney. The minimum air portion however is unchanged so proper combustion is maintained.


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> My damper stays open maybe a 1/16th of an inch. The manual does specify to adjust based on fuel. Smaller splits will require less air, larger hardwoods will require a little more. Just like a few others, my furnace never runs wide open unless it's on a reload and that's no more than a half hour, which half of that is used to take off. When the damper closes, heat output increases. Occasionally it will open within the first hour or two, but for only a couple minutes to satisfy the thermostat when it's cold. If any furnace needs to run full bore for an extended period of time, it's too small. On the coaling stage however, that's completely different.
> 
> I choose to reduce the amount of incoming air to imitate a shorter chimney. The minimum air portion however is unchanged so proper combustion is maintained.


wow. ok so my Tundra is running pretty much exactly like that. open first 30 mins. mostly closed from then on out and cycles later. I been messing w making it cycle a few times after a shorter timer setting like 15-20 mins instead of 30 but yeah mines operating pretty much the same exact the damper opens all the way when it opens then shuts completely.  That last part you said is what the wow was for. Really confused me. Don't feel bad. not hard to do. lol


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## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> wow. ok so my Tundra is running pretty much exactly like that. open first 30 mins. mostly closed from then on out and cycles later. I been messing w making it cycle a few times after a shorter timer setting like 15-20 mins instead of 30 but yeah mines operating pretty much the same exact the damper opens all the way when it opens then shuts completely.  That last part you said is what the wow was for. Really confused me. Don't feel bad. not hard to do. lol


oh crap I see where I was getting confused.. when you say it stay open a 1/16 or 1/8 inch you mean all the time.. when its closed. not when heat call comes from t stat or temp controller right? yeah I messed with the paper clip. Causes my wood to burn out. lol didn't like it didn't close down the trietary burn intake any either. I thought you guys meant when you had heat call from t stat dampers only opened a 1/16 of an inch. Im and idiot. lol I was banging my head wondering how the stove was getting any air. lol. no my therm does not call for heat until like 1 or 2 in the after noon after loading between 5-7 am in the morning. The temp controller controls the draft. keeps it at -.05. seems good 14 hour burns and plenty of coals left. If I chose to drive the house up to the middle 70's its always 69 or 70 when I get home no problem. just burns to much wood up and I can easily bring the house up with the gas furnace if I want based on time of day or remotely with my phone... or just build a few brenndatomu fires for fun to jack it up to 70 then load for the night around 10.. speaking of..


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## 3fordasho

Digger79 said:


> hey Laynes69 and 3fordasho.. Are your saying your inlet dampers stay closed most the burn. How long exactly? 8 hrs? 10? I get 8-12 hr burns. I have plenty of coals at 12,13,even 14 hours if I'm burning better stuff like Hickory. Man I love that stuff! lol. Are your inlets staying open in the last few hours or hour of the burns? again mine currently is set to cycle and keep draft ideal. draft goes down below -.04 inlet opens. Draft gets back up to -.06 I shut it back down. This is what I been shooting for lately trying to get it to run at -.05 as much long as possible. This cycle only occurs once or twice depending if its a full load or a half load. Then the damper rides shut till the last 2-3 hours of the burns then cycles a few times again and stays open after that. Seems I am maintaining a -.05 draft as long as possible. Are there better methods that produce more efficiency? Like high draft and low inlet air? laynes69 thats your setup right? high -.10+ draft and secondaries choked way down damper barely opens and mostly stays shut? I guess I'm trying to operate as close to SBI's recommendations as possible. I mean they did have engineers design these things but then again they had a bunch of them crack! lol. I doubt that was the engineers fault. somehow I doubt it.



Both my tundras are in the 1340's for Serial number.  They have some of the upgrades but not all.  By the time these were made SBI was doing a better job of sealing the ash pan area and reduced two of the three inlet air openings. I have since installed the front firebrick to help protect the areas around the door.  SBI supplied the pre-cut brick.

As far as fan on/off temps I noticed quite a difference between my two tundras. The one in the house seems about right but the other would get much hotter before kicking the fan on.  These snap switches have quite a bit of variation between them and to make things worse I think SBI also suppled different temp switches as production progressed.

I ended up replacing one of my fan snap switches with an adjustable one so I could dial it in to my liking.

As far as how long the damper is closed on my typical burn, I have my add on temp control monitoring that too.
The temp control basically does two things:
  First it acts has a high flue temp shut down.  Once the flue temp hits the set point (currently 625f) it shuts the air inlet.  The only time this usually happens is on start up or reload when I set the timer too long. So with the air inlet held open by the timer or thermostat the air inlet will close once temps hit 625 and reopen once it drops to 425.  Once the timer runs out the furnace settles into cruise mode with the air inlet shut for best wood efficiency.  Basically this function is similar to the factory limit but is adjustable and monitors flue temps rather than air temp above the firebox.

Second the temp control will reopen the air inlet  once flue temps hit a low alarm setting on the temp control.  I currently have my set to open the inlet at 265 and close again at 365.  When does this come into play? Say I don't set the timer long enough on a reload or cold start to get things hot enough to maintain secondary burn.  the temp control takes care of this and keeps the firebox at an efficient temp.  About half way through a burn temps naturally start to drop off, the temp control will start to cycle the air inlet open and closed and eventually stay open till my next reload... I find this useful in that it reduces excessive coal beds and helps get more heat towards the end of the burn.


----------



## Digger79

3fordasho said:


> Both my tundras are in the 1340's for Serial number.  They have some of the upgrades but not all.  By the time these were made SBI was doing a better job of sealing the ash pan area and reduced two of the three inlet air openings. I have since installed the front firebrick to help protect the areas around the door.  SBI supplied the pre-cut brick.
> 
> As far as fan on/off temps I noticed quite a difference between my two tundras. The one in the house seems about right but the other would get much hotter before kicking the fan on.  These snap switches have quite a bit of variation between them and to make things worse I think SBI also suppled different temp switches as production progressed.
> 
> I ended up replacing one of my fan snap switches with an adjustable one so I could dial it in to my liking.
> 
> As far as how long the damper is closed on my typical burn, I have my add on temp control monitoring that too.
> The temp control basically does two things:
> First it acts has a high flue temp shut down.  Once the flue temp hits the set point (currently 625f) it shuts the air inlet.  The only time this usually happens is on start up or reload when I set the timer too long. So with the damper held open by the timer or thermostat the air inlet will close once temps hit 625 and reopen once it drops to 425.  Once the timer runs out the furnace settles into cruise mode with the air inlet shut for best wood efficiency.  Basically this function is similar to the factory limit but is adjustable and monitors flue temps rather than air temp above the firebox.
> 
> Second the temp control will reopen the air inlet  once flue temps hit a low alarm setting on the temp control.  I currently have my set to open the inlet at 265 and close again at 365.  When does this come into play? Say I don't set the timer long enough on a reload or cold start to get things hot enough to maintain secondary burn.  the temp control takes care of this and keeps the firebox at an efficient temp.  About half way through a burn temps naturally start to drop off, the temp control will start to cycle open and closed and eventually stay open till my next reload... I find this useful in that it reduces excessive coal beds and helps get more heat towards the end of the burn.


Man thats freakin cool. got it. my setup up is basically exactly the same other than my temp controller is limited at 600 so I use C and measure on the surface with the prob. lol. so my reading are diff but I kinda got the conversions down by now. anyways something else is wrong other than that with the temp controller... I get readings as high as 500 C.. no freakin way. lol. the old school spring steel surface therm never goes over 400 ever. its fairly accurate. Two things are very different. First my stove is not running anywhere near as hot as yours I don't believe as far as flu temps go. I figure flu temps measured externally over 500 are a to high. Have yet to measure properly internally. Second I do not have the temp controller wired in like you do so I cannot have the second cycle at the lower temps like you do. My temp controller opens and closes at high draft and low draft one time only using the HYS. no lower cycle setting. Need to figure that out and think I a new temp controller. sounds like it would be most helpful.


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> My damper stays open maybe a 1/16th of an inch. The manual does specify to adjust based on fuel. Smaller splits will require less air, larger hardwoods will require a little more. Just like a few others, my furnace never runs wide open unless it's on a reload and that's no more than a half hour, which half of that is used to take off. When the damper closes, heat output increases. Occasionally it will open within the first hour or two, but for only a couple minutes to satisfy the thermostat when it's cold. If any furnace needs to run full bore for an extended period of time, it's too small. On the coaling stage however, that's completely different.
> 
> I choose to reduce the amount of incoming air to imitate a shorter chimney. The minimum air portion however is unchanged so proper combustion is maintained.


Don't get me wrong man I got it set to load and go when I need to. I don't need to watch it and control it from my phone I just enjoy being able to do that and see what it does. not to mention have control over things if something should ever go wrong and monitoring. I can set alarms that will send to my phone but have yet to mess with all that. When Im busy and can't mess with it I just leave therm at 70 load and go. rest takes care of itself. I can load and go in about 3-5 minutes if I need to.


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## Digger79

Ok fellas so seems you may be on to something with letting that baro stay shut. I dialed it up so it wouldnt acuate. Freaked me out a little when draft bumped to -.09 , -.10 an I opened it a touch but then decided it was ok. stove n flu temps remained fine an high limit came on before timer shut off so seems the slight overdraft in load is ok. Now thats w this newer unit. The first model I believe this would be bad cause the fan cones on way too late, HE n plenum get way to hot. Same prob w high limit on the first stoves. Not safe. W the newer ones even if people leave therms wide open, the new high limit setting won't allow damage to stove anymore from damper staying open. Here's what I had at 6:45 am today after last nights full load of hickory. U guys were right. Damper stated shut all night an house was 69.5 at 6:30am. Now thats from 11pm load though so only 7.5 hrs.

Load at 11 pm






This morning at 6:45






An draft readings during firing


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## Digger79

A few pics of my remote monitoing an controlling features. I also have power control on/off over everything thru wifi plugs.

Remote camera w zoom, pan, tilt features...






Wood furnace T stat control..






Gas furnace T stat controls..


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## KARB2014

I know they say not to use a grate but it works wonders for me. As I said almost 8 pages ago I went back to using the grate and I will only take it out once the weather warms up and I'm back to burning soft woods. With grate I have absolutely no issues with coals. I have a very high heat demand and I would produce coals like a charcoal factory. I would spend two hours every night burning coals off and deal with a house that was colder than I had the thermo set to. Again its not for everybody but with the grate I can pump out the btu's for quick recovery. My secondaries are very intense with the grate. My grate is .375 304 stainless and no joke for the first 5 hrs of burn it glows red. This latest cold spell we just had was the coldest I have ever had it here. The wind was strong and on my house that is what affects my inside temp the most. On those days I was keeping my house at 72-75 with 6.5 to 7 hour burns. And the best part only a hand full of coals left for a restart. With the grate I don't get the coals only red hot in the front and black in the back, I get a fire box full of coals with blue ghost flames rising out of them. The pictures aren't the best and you can't see the grate, but that load right there heated my house for 8hrs with an outside temp of 12degs and inside 75 dropping to 72 before reload. It does change the way it burns. It more of burns the whole length instead of front to back.


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## Digger79

KARB2014 said:


> I know they say not to use a grate but it works wonders for me. As I said almost 8 pages ago I went back to using the grate and I will only take it out once the weather warms up and I'm back to burning soft woods. With grate I have absolutely no issues with coals. I have a very high heat demand and I would produce coals like a charcoal factory. I would spend two hours every night burning coals off and deal with a house that was colder than I had the thermo set to. Again its not for everybody but with the grate I can pump out the btu's for quick recovery. My secondaries are very intense with the grate. My grate is .375 304 stainless and no joke for the first 5 hrs of burn it glows red. This latest cold spell we just had was the coldest I have ever had it here. The wind was strong and on my house that is what affects my inside temp the most. On those days I was keeping my house at 72-75 with 6.5 to 7 hour burns. And the best part only a hand full of coals left for a restart. With the grate I don't get the coals only red hot in the front and black in the back, I get a fire box full of coals with blue ghost flames rising out of them. The pictures aren't the best and you can't see the grate, but that load right there heated my house for 8hrs with an outside temp of 12degs and inside 75 dropping to 72 before reload. It does change the way it burns. It more of burns the whole length instead of front to back.



Funny u should mention that grate cause I was brainstorming about coaling issues last night.. Now I really don't have bad coaling issues but always room for improvement. My idea is to use a grate but not at the bottom! Set tall so grate is closer to middle height of firebox. The thought was loading stove w the grate right in the middle of the load so it helps not only keep ash from covering lower coals it also makes it easy to build a "Brenndatamo" fire w small splits being held close to the top of the box for those quick high heat fires. Ya know when u want to warm up a little but not load stove for 12 hrs. Whatya u guys think bout that? 3fordasho, lynes69, Brenn??


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## laynes69

I don't feel a grate is the right thing to do. Personally, I had a coaling issue until I reduced the heat load on the house. When the house was drafty and lacked attic insulation, I was forced to keep a flame or get cold. Now with a tighter more insulated home, the fire can run in cycles. Whether smaller loads that put some heat into the home then peter out, or larger loads that last for hours. Three decent sized splits in a coalbed burn for quite some time. Above 25-30 degrees and a half load will take me thru the night with plenty of coals for the morning. Hell...Sometimes in the mid 20's to the 30's, I'll go down to check the fire and it's almost out. The blower hasn't ran in over a half hour and the house is still 73 degrees. With a tighter home, I don't stress about the next load. It was so bad before, when the blower would shutoff, I would scramble to get the woodburner, or the temperature would drop in the house.


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## brenndatomu

I don't have much of a coaling issue either...but that is mainly because I refuse to short load (less than 8 hours on a load) IMO, if you have to load less than every 8 hours...then that unit is too small for your heat load...other than maybe during the occasional abnormally low temps, no sense buying a wood burner that is too big 99% of the time...I think most of us have backup methods of heating on those super duper cold nights if the wood fire needs some supplement.


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> I don't feel a grate is the right thing to do. Personally, I had a coaling issue until I reduced the heat load on the house. When the house was drafty and lacked attic insulation, I was forced to keep a flame or get cold. Now with a tighter more insulated home, the fire can run in cycles. Whether smaller loads that put some heat into the home then peter out, or larger loads that last for hours. Three decent sized splits in a coalbed burn for quite some time. Above 25-30 degrees and a half load will take me thru the night with plenty of coals for the morning. Hell...Sometimes in the mid 20's to the 30's, I'll go down to check the fire and it's almost out. The blower hasn't ran in over a half hour and the house is still 73 degrees. With a tighter home, I don't stress about the next load. It was so bad before, when the blower would shutoff, I would scramble to get the woodburner, or the temperature would drop in the house.



Whats your reason for not liking the use of a grate? I dont want one on the bottom cause I feel coals need to sit at bottom of stove w the way this furnace functions. How ever I thought maybe a grate right in middle of box may help keep ash from top of the load from covering the bottom load. Also gives me a shelf to build smaller fires that will burn near top of box putting out real fast high heat an burning out quickly so u can still put full load in for the night. Be helpful during warmer weather. May just use one during "shoulder season" as u guys say just to make a smaller box. I did kinda like the giant rolling flames from the kindling type high heat fire built simply on bottom of box. That may actually be more beneficial than holding wood load closer to top of box.  Curious why u think a crate is not good.


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> I don't have much of a coaling issue either...but that is mainly because I refuse to short load (less than 8 hours on a load) IMO, if you have to load less than every 8 hours...then that unit is too small for your heat load...other than maybe during the occasional abnormally low temps, no sense buying a wood burner that is too big 99% of the time...I think most of us have backup methods of heating on those super duper cold nights if the wood fire needs some supplement.


What about my grate at center height in the box?? So I can load below an above it.. Other than loosing a little volume in box you think thats bad idea? Good idea? Or just a stupid idea?? Lol


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> What about my grate at center height in the box?? So I can load below an above it.. Other than loosing a little volume in box you think thats bad idea? Good idea? Or just a stupid idea?? Lol


I dunno...I see what you are getting at I think. A good compromise may be a grate that is just high enough to get a few small splits or limb wood under it...that way you would still have the best of both worlds, a few coals left under the grate to make the next load easy to fire...but not too many building up. Could be worth a try if you are having coaling issues...are you?


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> Ok fellas so seems you may be on to something with letting that baro stay shut. I dialed it up so it wouldnt acuate. Freaked me out a little when draft bumped to -.09 , -.10 an I opened it a touch but then decided it was ok


Just so you go into this "eyes wide open" I'd be cautious with allowing the draft to run that high, here's why, since that unit is a warranty replacement for your original...I don't think it has a warranty of it's own (at least as far as cracking) because IIRC, the original SBI warranty said that you would only receive a one time replacement or repair if that ever became necessary. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Just so you go into this "eyes wide open" I'd be cautious with allowing the draft to run that high, here's why, since that unit is a warranty replacement for your original...I don't think it has a warranty of it's own (at least as far as cracking) because IIRC, the original SBI warranty said that you would only receive a one time replacement or repair if that ever became necessary. I could be wrong on this, but I don't think so


according to SBI you are incorrect. I have been closely in touch with them thru out this switching process and expressed concern over the new unit making noises. They assured me if it cracked again they would warranty it again. Its a lifetime warranty maybe not a limited one I dunno but they "said" they'd replace it if it broke again and not to worry... who knows. umm well I dunno I am concerned though cause its been kinda warm like 25-35 and if its drafting up near -.09 in that weather I can only imagine where it may go in say 5 deg weather or -10.. yikes! I may dial it up a bit but I'm pretty sure the baro is going to stay and function to some degree to at least keep it from rocketing over -.09. I think I will stick with .-08 for a target for high draft. If it bumps to -.09 or -.10 for a second thats ok I feel but needs to stay steadily under -.08 as a max in my opinion.


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## Digger79

I keep forgetting so long as the high limit switch doesn't fail not having a baro on my setup is not going to be a problem. corry I'm new to this unit. lol. I still wan't the draft under a mechanical control just incase something else fails with the snap disc or temp controller. No this stove doesn't seem it can over draft with the damper shut and a 15' chimney no matter what you put in it. I loaded it to the top last night above the door! not far but above it. baro locked.. barely bumped to -.09 a few times stayed around -.08 while damper was open but high limit shut er down pretty fast.  rode at -.06 thru -.08 for a long damn time though. 


Digger79 said:


> according to SBI you are incorrect. I have been closely in touch with them thru out this switching process and expressed concern over the new unit making noises. They assured me if it cracked again they would warranty it again. Its a lifetime warranty maybe not a limited one I dunno but they "said" they'd replace it if it broke again and not to worry... who knows. umm well I dunno I am concerned though cause its been kinda warm like 25-35 and if its drafting up near -.09 in that weather I can only imagine where it may go in say 5 deg weather or -10.. yikes! I may dial it up a bit but I'm pretty sure the baro is going to stay and function to some degree to at least keep it from rocketing over -.09. I think I will stick with .-08 for a target for high draft. If it bumps to -.09 or -.10 for a second thats ok I feel but needs to stay steadily under -.08 as a max in my opinion.


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> I dunno...I see what you are getting at I think. A good compromise may be a grate that is just high enough to get a few small splits or limb wood under it...that way you would still have the best of both worlds, a few coals left under the grate to make the next load easy to fire...but not too many building up. Could be worth a try if you are having coaling issues...are you?


nah not really just like to stay distracted. life's boring.  I mean sometimes.. it depends on what I do but I have pretty much figured out how to avoid it. Achieved near ideal burns several times with perfect coals and at times none! lol. I like your thought on maybe lowering a crate just a little from center as you described. One of my concerns with the crate and one reason I don't use it now is getting the old ash out. I hate pulling grates in and out of a firebox to clean it well. ick. did it for years with the fireplace. So part of the reason I wanted it roughly in the middle.. of the door opening really not the actual box. So I can still clean out well.


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## brenndatomu

Don't "bet the farm" on the high limit switch saving you...it is still possible to overfire with the intake damper closed...if you get a full firebox of something real dry, and real potent, (like Locust or Hedge) rolling good on secondarys...with a high draft...the firebox temp will just keep rising. Keep in mind SBI says anything over 700* internal flue temps is too hot. They say 350-550 should be the day to day operating temps for internal flue temps.


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## Digger79

Well today loaded in 5 minutes at 6:45am and walked out the door. Tried the high draft thing didnt work as well as last night. I did come home to a 69 deg house at 5:30pm. High temp was 35 today roughly but most day round 25-30 deg. Anyways here's what I had left in box today after 10.75 hrs.












Now thats what I call coal. Those r hard solid coals that do not break apart very easy. However had no wood oil mess of any kind, no black staining on glass. I dunno house was 69 deg after almost 11 hrs doesnt seem bad. 

Here simply some sweet dang pics of tonights "Brenndatamo Fire" ! Lol











This one looks like the flames are jumping right out of the furnace! Haha!




And these r just awesome!


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## Digger79

Yo Brenndatamo, you see that little ghost flame in the back top left corner. Looks like its coming out of a weld there at the corner of the trietary burner tube housing. Only happens when I get the fire ripping super hot. What you think bout that? I mean who cares really I don't see it as an issue for any reason.


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Don't "bet the farm" on the high limit switch saving you...it is still possible to overfire with the intake damper closed...if you get a full firebox of something real dry, and real potent, (like Locust or Hedge) rolling good on secondarys...with a high draft...the firebox temp will just keep rising. Keep in mind SBI says anything over 700* internal flue temps is too hot. They say 350-550 should be the day to day operating temps for internal flue temps.


Agreed. I mentioned in all my babble today the damper is staying and staying active. I will dial it up some but monitor. been good on full loads of hickory but not honey locust, or osage or white oak/hickory mixes nor in negative temps outdoors. I have settled on keeping draft relatively under -.08 at all times as a max. Baro damper is a nice trust worthy mechanical fail safe for the flu. It stays.


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## brenndatomu

Dude! That first fire pic from tonight is awesome! That should be your new avatar pic


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## Digger79

Man I have never seen those igniter tubes light up quite so fiercely before. With the draft cranked the fire is roaring across the top of the box like a blast furnace! lol. The sweet thing is Brenndatomu thru all this testing (very carefully and monitored at first) of the higher drafts the firebox never even gets over 350. Its weird. I think I see what Lynes69 is driving at. I mean dude the draft is nearing -.10 and I am freaking out but the stove never hit over 350 on the lower face therm and the HE face therm never gets over 300 rarely maybe 325. Thats on super hot loads with draft way up. damper locked. Before with the old stove I was hitting 450-475 on lower therm and 350-400 at times on the higher therm. The higher I turn up the draft and longer I keep the damper closed the more heat seams to be driven into the house. I dunno. Im telling you man this stove just doesn't get hot. I can stand there with my hand on top the plenum in the middle most the time. Not on initial surge but through out entire initial surge load I can absolutely keep my hand on the top just not so close to the very center. The stove runs cold on the outside compared to the last one. The heat is going somewhere and the house seems much much warmer much easier with much less wood on this model over the first. If the high limit fails though could be in trouble so again. baro def stays.


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## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> that little ghost flame in the back top left corner.



(Although I'm not @brenndatomu )  I agree it doesn't hurt performance, but it might be a mark against workmanship.

As for grates, one of my hesitations is how to readily scoop out ashes below the grate so that enough air can get underneath to improve things.  Piecing together what others have said:  I don't need more than 3 loads per day on 95% of the time.  With the "burn coals" switch that opens the damper when temps are low, I can burn off almost all coals in 8 hours or less.  So I usually don't have a coaling issue, and can work around it on the 5% of the days that need more loads.

@Digger79 , didn't you say in a previous post that you rent your house?  It's not common to hear of landlords allowing renters to install a wood-burning appliance, let alone the renter going ahead and buying a furnace once and installing it twice.  Sounds like a fun story!


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## Digger79

Hey your short hot high pile fires are fun Brenndatomu but the seem fairly equal to my larger 4 hour burns I was doing in the evenings before bedtime loads.. bedtime loads..umm getting a bit racy for a stove forum.. ahem anyhow back to stoves.. but the high pile fires are much more fun!


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Dude! That first fire pic from tonight is awesome! That should be your new avatar pic


yeah but prob not so awesome in a tiny little thumb nail pic.


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## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> (Although I'm not @brenndatomu )  I agree it doesn't hurt performance, but it might be a mark against workmanship.
> 
> As for grates, one of my hesitations is how to readily scoop out ashes below the grate so that enough air can get underneath to improve things.  Piecing together what others have said:  I don't need more than 3 loads per day on 95% of the time.  With the "burn coals" switch that opens the damper when temps are low, I can burn off almost all coals in 8 hours or less.  So I usually don't have a coaling issue, and can work around it on the 5% of the days that need more loads.
> 
> @Digger79 , didn't you say in a previous post that you rent your house?  It's not common to hear of landlords allowing renters to install a wood-burning appliance, let alone the renter going ahead and buying a furnace once and installing it twice.  Sounds like a fun story!


He allowed me to install the insert in the fireplace. Its safer than the fireplace was. lol. its pretty old and he had to maintain it. clay liner not in the best shape. told him let me do the stove I'll take care of cleaning it of course. He allowed it. The Tundra you see is in the separate garage that I built on the property when my old landlord owned it. That guy lived on the other side of my 2.5 acre lot. He'd let me get away with growing dope if I wanted to and they kinda encouraged it lol although its not my thing just and idea of how lax they are. Old landlord says he's getting stoned as Hell when he retires in a few years! lmao. Well so the guy on the other side of me wound up buying the property and renting to me. He's the one whom allowed the drolet insert in the fireplace. I had always had a wood stove in the garage that already existed on his property before he purchased it. The spoken agreement was and is that I will demo my shack of a garage. It is a 22x12 ft pole barn style 4 hip roof side with primed smart paneling (crappy cheap 4x8) no plywood sheathing just the siding. The only thing I did with out asking him was disconnect a few ducts from the gas furnace and cap them at his trunk and hook up a few registers to my trunk lines coming in thru the crawl space. Its all good I can rip it out and reconnect his stuff in a half of a day. I want to buy the property and am trying but have very poor economics, its just me out here. bout a 140k property on 2.5 acres in the country. 10 mins from the interstates. Its nice. Any ways thats pretty much the story there. He lives next door but leaves me alone and wants left alone just wants rent every month and wants me to maintain the house and the property less any major costs of repairs like the water heater. I had to replace it but he of course bought the water heater. But I'm a General Contractor so home remodeling is pretty easy for me.


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## laynes69

Those splits are pretty small. A firebox full of small splits with alot of space will cause some hot, uncontrollable fires. Larger splits with less air gaps will create a more stable, longer burn. The units do require a good draft, as do all modern stoves. Draft will peak, but will not stay there as the damper closes. The way I see draft, if the unit is controllable and doesn't run away it's not a problem. Getting 10-12 hours burns is far from a run away furnace. If you were packing the firebox and getting 4 hours, I'd say there's a problem. I honestly think your chasing your tail. If your getting 10-12 hour burns and your happy then your doing better than many people. There's people out there wishing they had burntimes like that, that are chewing thru wood like candy. Trust me, my old furnace could easily blow thru twice the wood in a single cycle.


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Those splits are pretty small. A firebox full of small splits with alot of space will cause some hot, uncontrollable fires. Larger splits with less air gaps will create a more stable, longer burn. The units do require a good draft, as do all modern stoves. Draft will peak, but will not stay there as the damper closes. The way I see draft, if the unit is controllable and doesn't run away it's not a problem. Getting 10-12 hours burns is far from a run away furnace. If you were packing the firebox and getting 4 hours, I'd say there's a problem. I honestly think your chasing your tail. If your getting 10-12 hour burns and your happy then your doing better than many people. There's people out there wishing they had burntimes like that, that are chewing thru wood like candy. Trust me, my old furnace could easily blow thru twice the wood in a single cycle.


Yeah but those fires are awesome! lol. It's not hurting anything. Your right of course the draft bounces around a bit more but as I mentioned early in the thread this stove is one seriously cool customer. the exterior gets 1/4 of the temps the old one did. about 1/2 as hot on the face. Im not sure what all they did different in side completely yet but the thing is ice cold compared to the first unit.(course it gets hot its a wood stove). But I can have my hands all over it even during hot loads. just not the face of the stove. lol. plenum can get hot but outer edges never to hot to handle. I got tough carpenter hands though. I grab coals and toss em quickly back in from the shovel. lol. with my fingers. Even under the loads where I been raising the draft and closing the damper and as a matter of fact when I raised the draft super high and kept the damper closed the outside of the stove actually ran cooler and the house temps where better. I think Im starting to see what you are getting at with how you run your stove and I think I like it. I still am keeping baro and keeping draft under .-08 as general max. I'm ok with it bumping above that for a sec or two but prefer it stays closer to -.08 as a max. Before this convo I was trying to keep it from going over -.06 cause the stupid SBI manual said -.04 thru -.06 was ideal.. I guess they want to cover there rears so they don't have to replace any more stoves. lol. Yeah I get good burns, yes I am chasing my tail I already admitted that. Its kinda an obsession. I am pretty sure Im getting longer burns with higher heat with adding some of your methods but not sure yet. I had a 14 hour burn the other day and house only got down to 64-65 deg after 14 hours and hight temp outside that day was like 25. Considering the stove is in the separate garage.. yeah Im fine I know. We honestly have Brenndatomu to thank for all that so I got to give him kudos. He clued me in on the mods and setups. I was sniffing at it my self and googling how to control 24 vlt systems when I ran across one of his comments on the Arboristsite.com website. He was nice enough to guide me into peak operation of this thing.. the old one then I found the cracks after reading about all the issues people had. I have a blast messing with this thing though and have built smoke free EPA style stoves from barrel setups, made mini gasifiers. Im just a wood burning nerd. Aren't we all? Isn't that why we are all here rambling? lol


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## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Those splits are pretty small. A firebox full of small splits with alot of space will cause some hot, uncontrollable fires. Larger splits with less air gaps will create a more stable, longer burn. The units do require a good draft, as do all modern stoves. Draft will peak, but will not stay there as the damper closes. The way I see draft, if the unit is controllable and doesn't run away it's not a problem. Getting 10-12 hours burns is far from a run away furnace. If you were packing the firebox and getting 4 hours, I'd say there's a problem. I honestly think your chasing your tail. If your getting 10-12 hour burns and your happy then your doing better than many people. There's people out there wishing they had burntimes like that, that are chewing thru wood like candy. Trust me, my old furnace could easily blow thru twice the wood in a single cycle.


And I get what your saying about the longer burns and better control but thats not what I am shooting or with this tiny split towers. Im just having fun and want the coals gone so I don't mess up the evening load before bed. and drive some heat in the house. If Im busy I'd load a proper 4 hour fire I believe then go reload around 10-10:30. Last night I stayed up till 11 and loaded stove.. was too late at night for how early I was getting up and wanting to reload. Well fire was too big for a 8 hour burn was the problem. should loaded it much lighter that late at night. lesson learned.


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## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> And I get what your saying about the longer burns and better control but thats not what I am shooting or with this tiny split towers. Im just having fun and want the coals gone so I don't mess up the evening load before bed. and drive some heat in the house. If Im busy I'd load a proper 4 hour fire I believe then go reload around 10-10:30. Last night I stayed up till 11 and loaded stove.. was too late at night for how early I was getting up and wanting to reload. Well fire was too big for a 8 hour burn was the problem. should loaded it much lighter that late at night. lesson learned.





laynes69 said:


> Those splits are pretty small. A firebox full of small splits with alot of space will cause some hot, uncontrollable fires. Larger splits with less air gaps will create a more stable, longer burn. The units do require a good draft, as do all modern stoves. Draft will peak, but will not stay there as the damper closes. The way I see draft, if the unit is controllable and doesn't run away it's not a problem. Getting 10-12 hours burns is far from a run away furnace. If you were packing the firebox and getting 4 hours, I'd say there's a problem. I honestly think your chasing your tail. If your getting 10-12 hour burns and your happy then your doing better than many people. There's people out there wishing they had burntimes like that, that are chewing thru wood like candy. Trust me, my old furnace could easily blow thru twice the wood in a single cycle.


BTW the 14 hour burn still had hot enough coals to re light. took a few minutes to fire em with the door cracked but it fired after a minute or so.


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## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> He clued me in on the mods and setups.



I'm starting to think of the Tundra (once SBI works out the bugs) as a Honda Civic of cars:  inexpensive, good performance, and the overwhelming favorite to modify with performance upgrades.  Over-temp controllers; coal-burning mods; damper control with tstat and timers; air inlet size; and now we're working on infinitely-variable blower speeds.  

Granted, a few of these mods could be or are already included in other furnaces.  And I'm certainly not advocating making unsafe modifications or violating warranties.  Just that the Tundra seems to have a much larger following than other furnaces on this forum, and a lot of the discussion seems about how to customize it to each user's preferences.  

Not sure what my point is beyond that, but it almost gets fun!


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## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> I'm starting to think of the Tundra (once SBI works out the bugs) as a Honda Civic of cars:  inexpensive, good performance, and the overwhelming favorite to modify with performance upgrades.  Over-temp controllers; coal-burning mods; damper control with tstat and timers; air inlet size; and now we're working on infinitely-variable blower speeds.
> 
> Granted, a few of these mods could be or are already included in other furnaces.  And I'm certainly not advocating making unsafe modifications or violating warranties.  Just that the Tundra seems to have a much larger following than other furnaces on this forum, and a lot of the discussion seems about how to customize it to each user's preferences.
> 
> Not sure what my point is beyond that, but it almost gets fun!


Agreed.


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## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> it almost gets fun!


Almost?! Whadya mean almost? I'm having a freakin blast tweakin this thing! 


DoubleB said:


> and now we're working on infinitely-variable blower speeds.


I have had mine going since last Friday, It took a little tuning to get things dialed in but I am close now and I can say...I like it! It limits the blower cycling on/off to a bare minimum, but to me the real advantage, at least in my setup, is being able to use a higher fan speed, without excessive cycling like I'd get before on all but low speed. That means more heat to the house when the fire is rockin, and then it keeps the fan going at a real low speed for many hours once things die down. That also puts more heat to the house because the blower is not sitting idle waiting on the HE to heat the fan switch back up for another 2 minute run.
Oh, and this is another big advantage to me...no more wind chill! Before, even with the fan on low, when the fire was dying down, and the duct temps are running lower...my feet were always cold due to the blower running sub 100* duct temps...and my recliner being in front of a cold air return I suppose. But the wind chill is gone with the speed control now...by the time the duct temps are much below 100*, the fan speed (and duct velocity) is dropping. Win win 
Thanks to @STIHLY DAN  for the stellar idea to use a ICM Head Pressure Controller to manage the blower speed on these things. I may be getting one for the Yukon too...'course, I probably ought to wait to see if ole Yook is gonna be stayin or goin!


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## mcmac

So, i picked up a tundra from home hardware for about 1950 cdn including taxes.  Brought it home yesterday and spent the evening reading this thread from page one.  Checked the serial number...1906.  Looks like i got an old one.      Any ideas what the actual failure rate is on these in terms of the front face plate cracking?  I dont plan on installing it until next season...maybe i should try and exchange it?  Im surprised theres no recall on these, im afraid I will just have to test the warranty when it twists itself apart.


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## brenndatomu

Howdy mcmac, welcome to the jungle! You are a pretty hard core reader if you read this thread from page one! (of course I'm sure it reads just like a good novel, once you start, you just can't put it down! ) What is your build date? Can you post a pic of the front of the furnace? Does it have the thin steel trim cover around the HE cleanout door like Digger79s new one does (pics a couple pages back)


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## Digger79

mcmac said:


> So, i picked up a tundra from home hardware for about 1950 cdn including taxes.  Brought it home yesterday and spent the evening reading this thread from page one.  Checked the serial number...1906.  Looks like i got an old one.      Any ideas what the actual failure rate is on these in terms of the front face plate cracking?  I dont plan on installing it until next season...maybe i should try and exchange it?  Im surprised theres no recall on these, im afraid I will just have to test the warranty when it twists itself apart.


take it back bro trust me. Go to a Menards they are on sale and they appear to be the newer units not positive but they are special order from menards and at like 1580$ or 1670$ I can't rem. You can specify with menards and SBI that you receive the updated model and you will pay much less for the furnace.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> take it back bro trust me. Go to a Menards they are on sale and they appear to be the newer units not positive but they are special order from menards and at like 1580$ or 1670$ I can't rem. You can specify with menards and SBI that you receive the updated model and you will pay much less for the furnace.


$1519 with filter kit at menards. Just checked their website.


----------



## Digger79

Watch out cause there is a line of them with the temp controls and fan controls on top but it still the old build and could crack. I'd recommend contacting SBI directly telling them what you want and want to order it through Menards. Seriously send them and email about it I bet the set you right up to by one shipped direct to the store. They wanted to ship mine there then decided to ship it to the house when they did the replacement.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> take it back bro trust me. Go to a Menards


He's in Canada...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Digger79 said:


> And I get what your saying about the longer burns and better control but thats not what I am shooting or with this tiny split towers. Im just having fun and want the coals gone so I don't mess up the evening load before bed. and drive some heat in the house. If Im busy I'd load a proper 4 hour fire I believe then go reload around 10-10:30. Last night I stayed up till 11 and loaded stove.. was too late at night for how early I was getting up and wanting to reload. Well fire was too big for a 8 hour burn was the problem. should loaded it much lighter that late at night. lesson learned.



It will happen again..and again..and again.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> He's in Canada...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

mcmac said:


> So, i picked up a tundra from home hardware for about 1950 cdn including taxes.  Brought it home yesterday and spent the evening reading this thread from page one.  Checked the serial number...1906.  Looks like i got an old one.      Any ideas what the actual failure rate is on these in terms of the front face plate cracking?  I dont plan on installing it until next season...maybe i should try and exchange it?  Im surprised theres no recall on these, im afraid I will just have to test the warranty when it twists itself apart.



If it is the older one take it back. why install twice? Besides new ones seem to heat better also, as you have read.


----------



## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> It will happen again..and again..and again.


oh man you got a Kuuma furnace? Neat got any pics? I was checking those out. Hows' it working?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Not the right thread for that. But I'm happy with it.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

And who say's NEAT anymore?


----------



## mcmac

Hey guys, from looking at the unit, its certainly the old build.  No trim around the HX door, tacks underneath and welded from backside, although it does have the temp sensor on top.  I also found a pinhole in the weld along one of the HX tubes to the manifold at the front of the unit.  I really cant believe they let some of those welds pass, i found cold lap, undercut and complete lack of penetration all within 3" of the same weld.  Anyways, I'm going to email SBI tomorrow and find out what can be done.  I was really looking forward to running this thing.  The 1977 Lakewood "wood pig" as i call it has pretty much run its course.


----------



## BrotherBart

STIHLY DAN said:


> And who say's NEAT anymore?



Groovy people.


----------



## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> And who say's NEAT anymore?


What a silly question.. its should be clear who says neat anymore. I just did.


BrotherBart said:


> Groovy people.


Yeah I thought this was a stove forum not Facebook. Lets leave the personal comments to twitter and FB why don't we? lol


----------



## 3fordasho

I finally made a cold air return connection from the tundra to the propane furnace ducting.  Up till now I've just had the open filter frame on the tundra pulling air from the furnace room - not ideal but it worked.    Results all positive so far, less overall fan and blower noise, same or more output at registers even though I moved to the slowest fan speed (playing with speed control but not functional yet)  No drafts in the stairways leading to the lowest level.  I will have to install a backdraft damper in the propane furnace to prevent hot air from the Tundra doing the short circuit thing, but I was expecting that.  Overall well worth the $125 or so I spent on misc duct and fabricating a filter box, etc.  Probably most important, I don't have to worry about someone closing the furnace room door and creating negative pressure in there.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> oh man you got a Kuuma furnace? Neat got any pics? I was checking those out. Hows' it working?





STIHLY DAN said:


> Not the right thread for that. But I'm happy with it.


FYI, there are quite a few Kuuma threads with pics if you are interested. Just search Kuuma using the Hearth search


Digger79 said:


> Yeah I thought this was a stove forum not Facebook. Lets leave the personal comments to twitter and FB why don't we? lol


Boss man makes makes "personal" comments as he likes...


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> FYI, there are quite a few Kuuma threads with pics if you are interested. Just search Kuuma using the Hearth search
> 
> Boss man makes makes "personal" comments as he likes...


Oh Im just teasing. There's nothing wrong with saying thats neat and if someone wants to tease me about that seriously I don't mind. Im the coolest nerd around. period. Boss man? He doesn't sign my paychecks.. um no one does except my clients. I own my company. I am the Boss. Literally. 

Dan, Rt on man I'll check em out. They are interesting cause they are very pricy but have weak blowers, etc. the specs seems week but I suppose its cause they are such incredible furnaces they don't need big fans and such. Seems the heat output was very high but I swore I saw like 8 hour burn times on those things. I dunno. Any gasifier over 5k gets my attention. Want to know what makes it worth 5K. I'll check em out my self some other time thanks Dan.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Oh Im just teasing. There's nothing wrong with saying that neat and if someone wants to tease me about that seriously I don't mind. Im the coolest nerd around. period. Boss man? He doesn't sign my paychecks.. um no one does except my clients. I own my company. I am the Boss. Literally.


it just reminded me of Facebook. lol


----------



## Digger79

[


3fordasho said:


> I finally made a cold air return connection from the tundra to the propane furnace ducting.  Up till now I've just had the open filter frame on the tundra pulling air from the furnace room - not ideal but it worked.    Results all positive so far, less overall fan and blower noise, same or more output at registers even though I moved to the slowest fan speed (playing with speed control but not functional yet)  No drafts in the stairways leading to the lowest level.  I will have to install a backdraft damper in the propane furnace to prevent hot air from the Tundra doing the short circuit thing, but I was expecting that.  Overall well worth the $125 or so I spent on misc duct and fabricating a filter box, etc.  Probably most important, I don't have to worry about someone closing the furnace room door and creating negative pressure in there.



lol I just saw your new avatar pic. Thats great. We must be close to the same age cause thats from those stupid Ren & Stimpy cartoons.. What I ever saw in those stupid cartoons I'll never understand now. lmao.


----------



## Digger79

Yo 3fordasho, I bet you get a kick out of this! Lol my cold air return setup! U must keep in mind my install is relatively temporary and on too low of a budget. I had to start w flex duct everywhere cause I either had to but more gas or the stove. I chose the stove. Been replacing flex as ive been able to w solid pipe. All the crawl ducts are just about switched over I plan on doing solid cold air return this summer. Ive got the air flow pretty darn good at this point however so I may just live w what ever flex is left. I been renting here 9 years. Terrible i know. 80k i have paid in rent at least. Very sad. Any way heres the silly cold air setup! It works. Well. Lol


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> Any way heres the silly cold air setup!



The only silly thing I see is the canoe paddle.  Everything else looks like it was done by a professional contractor.  Wait, that's you!


----------



## Digger79

Alright so I tried the high draft thing damper closed all the time a few days now.. My results?? all my wood is being burnt out and house is colder. I am not sure exactly why but I was getting better heat and longer burns with the lower draft and the therm opening once in a while for heat. I did not close down the tertiary burners any so maybe that would help but man the heat loss. No good and I am burning 10%-15% moisture hickory loads! Its pignut not shagbark but still. I was getting 10-14 hour burns and still had good coals and heated house at 10 hours with the lower draft setup. On the 14 hour burns house would get down to 63-65 but still enough coals to re start just took a minute or two instead of seconds to fire up. All this was done durning temps anywhere form 20's to low 30's with the high's being around 30-32 deg outside. I am going back to my slower drafts. I was getting much much better results and burning much less wood. I mean it makes sense you turn the draft up your gunna burn more wood. I figured if damper stayed closed all day it would burn less and put out a lower heat for a longer time. Nope. It puts out hardly any heat all day. I watch the therm drop with full loads in there while damper was shut about half way thru the burn. So closing down the tertiary burn some may slow it down but it will produce less heat even more so. Im not sure what model these guys are doing these with but I can tell you this. The newer units do not get near as hot as the old ones so I am thinking the damper opening is probably needed more so for heat on the updated units than the first ones. SBI got tired replacing the stoves so they made them run cooler.. However 100% it pumps more air into the house.. This is likely mostly all due to the new fan switch and location. The location is the same as the intermediate models between the first couple thousand and the ones that are produced currently but the switch range is different. dif snap disc same location on last two models of Tundra. The fan comes on way early and runs damn near the whole cycle. So less heat is radiated from the stove and pushed into the house sooner. just at a lower temp until box gets hot. In the end more heat is being pushed into the house. Yes this can create cool drafts but honestly its only cool for few minutes then gets warm enough its no longer a cool draft. Still takes a little longer to get hot but just keeps going most the burn. My results on my setup have been the best so far with draft set at -.05 or -.06.


----------



## Digger79

Why does everyone call the tertiary burn a secondary burn? I studied these EPA stoves and there are 4 burns stages going on in these things. secondary is simply the burn going thru the coals. Quadrafire's 4 stage burn is exactly what is going on in all the EPA stoves. 1st burn or primary is the burn from the coals or the air coming in at the bottom front of the loading door pulling thru the coals. The primary air intake. The "Secondary" burn is the air coming down across the glass mixing with the primary air, The Tertiary burn is the one from the air coming in and burning gases at the intake tubes across the top of the box and then there is actually a 4th or Quaternary burn that occurs as the gases roll back across the top of the baffle and exits the flu. a few more impurities are burned of in that last stage of these 4 stage fires as well. 

Now I've learned a lot on here I didn't realize we needed that strong draft to keep pulling air thru those tubes.. well I didn't know they could burn for more than 30 mins at first. lol. Not till Brenndatomu clued me in on thermal chimney loss. duh. U'd think I'd put that together but I didn't know these things where suppose to run the burner tubes for hours and hours I always though 30 mins was it until I began reading about other people using these units. I had no idea I would get this kind of heat this long from it. I just figured its a wood burner its not going to be that much different than any old wood burner just cause the stove companies say they are. YA know the ol buyer beware thing.  I am new to the EPA tech but studied it last year when I got the insert. Didn't get Tundra till right at the end of winter so really didn't have much time to learn anything about it. However I did read and watch video and explanation of what was going on inside the fireboxes and how the stoves were built, burned air intakes and such. Just didn't make it to the chimney and flu stuff yet. None of that ever matter much years ago in my life cause I just had fireplaces then 4 or 5 years ago got a crappy old cracked 40 year old wood burner from my uncle. Thought that was just awesome. lol. Draft? who cares just throw wood in that old monster its gunn burn it all up in a few hours and then put suit every where any ways! lol


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> The only silly thing I see is the canoe paddle.  Everything else looks like it was done by a professional contractor.  Wait, that's you!


oh no man its totally half arsed. hacked together.. def not to HVAC code. lol. it works. I make a lot of things "work" with what ever I got in the sheds and around the yard. Love to solve problems utilizing what ever is within 5 feet of me rather than going 30 feet for the right tool or part. I get a kick out that crap. How can I make this work with out going to the trailer, .. the store,.. or spending any more damn money! I just need heat for now! lol Thats pretty much the set up here. needed heat in the house fast and need it relatively easy to un install. Hence my goofy setup. But it fits the bill. Yeah I know I talk like I'm 75 years old. lol. Neat! My Word, That fits the bill!  Its just cause if I spoke normally on here all my posts would look like this... 

So I got home and the %*#($ had dropped again and I had a %*#(#$ mess to #$#% with and I couldn't find the #*$(#$@ ash shovel so I just grabbed a *$# %&#! piece of *^&$ $%& metal bent the $%&#*&% thing into the %*^$@* shape I needed, said $%*# it and cleaned up the $(# #$@! mess.


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> Why does everyone call the tertiary burn a secondary burn?



Around here it's secondary burn.  It's the air's second chance at burning what didn't burn the first time.  I'm not an expert, so maybe I'm not quite right on all the terms, but that's how it seems to go here.  And from your description above, that sounds like a specific design that might not apply in all stoves.  Just my observations.


----------



## DoubleB

If that's the alternative, we can handle "neat."

FYI I use "neat" on occasion too.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> The only silly thing I see is the canoe paddle.  Everything else looks like it was done by a professional contractor.  Wait, that's you!


lol and the canoe paddle is the perfect support. Stays put year round. lol. That silly insulation gets wet from time to time cause I ripped a few little holes in the top of the plastic. YA know I could fix it pretty easily really but instead I cut the bottom open to let the water just drain out. lol. I keep meaning to put solid on there. wrap it in insulation and plastic just haven't gotten to it. Obviously my setup is highly controlled remotely even. I can turn of every thing from my phone separately. Temp controllers all of it just not the fire!  anyway I of course am not reliant on it. Has gas furnace hooked up too as you know separate duct systems and elec heaters, insert inside. so If the pipe comes ripping off one day no big deal I'll put the other section on till I get around to doing the proper solid pipe. lol I still got another piece of 12" flex to burn through before I buy the solid stuff. haha. The inside prob stay the flex. its such a short darn return it isn't funny. the flex isn't really a static issue cause how short it is. The system is well balanced specially sense I went to the high flow filters instead of the doggy dander filters I was trying to get to work. Just too thick. Most of my ducts would blow STIHLY DAN's Skirt up like Marilyn Monroe! lmao


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> FYI I use "neat" on occasion too.


As long as you don't say neato!


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Around here it's secondary burn.  It's the air's second chance at burning what didn't burn the first time.  I'm not an expert, so maybe I'm not quite right on all the terms, but that's how it seems to go here.  And from your description above, that sounds like a specific design that might not apply in all stoves.  Just my observations.


Google quadrafire. No your right not all "EPA" stoves.. just all stoves that function like our tundras and my insert. Down draft gasifiers are "EPA" and other systems. Our system in the Tundra is the Quadrafire system exactly. There are truly 4 burns going on. Quadrafire is a stove company that has a great little video explains the function of these stoves. Im not an expert either I read and studied all this junk on the internet. Which you can learn much that way but I also see what I am reading about occur in the fireboxes to some degree and have studied and red about other down draft and rocket stove systems, systems that use multiple baffles there are def multiple ways to gasify or burn 98% of the wood up before emissions  exit. So in my unprofessional opinion, lol, they are 4 stage burners if they function like the Tundra. BTW the air coming in around the corners of the burner tubes.. was just licking down from the crack around the intake pipe where it goes thru into its housing. Wasn't coming out of the weld like I though. Got a clear shot of it tonight.


----------



## Digger79

This is describing the exact burn that is occurring in our Tundra I believe. Appears that way to me. Air may come in at a different spot from the out side but inside its going in in the exact same locations if that made sense. lol


----------



## mcmac

Wow, I figured out how to disable email notifications this morning....every bit of gibberish posted here landed in my inbox this morning lol...!

Anyway, SBI got back to me....Claiming that every front end failure of the tundra was related to either over drafting or inadequate air through the unit.  They see no reason that I shouldn't put my serial 1906 into service, and that the redesign was done in order to make the unit more resiliant to poor installation (operation?) conditions.  In other words, the failures were our fault, not theirs, and they won't consider replacing my unit until it fails..

My response: (indentities concealed to, well, conceal identity)

Dear XX,

Thank you for your prompt reply.  I fully understand that SBI is unable to control every aspect of installation or operation of their products once in the hands of the final user.  Failures of any machine indicate how that product accepts its operating conditions within the limits of it's mechanical design.  I fully intend to install and operate my furnace within the limits of that design, for reasons of safety and longevity.  I selected the Tundra furnace based upon the reviews it gained online, as it is clearly an efficient, effective and easy to use design.  Excellent customer service is also another factor.

As the heating system in my home is, with exception of the chimney, being designed from scratch, I have decided to hire a qualified HVAC contractor to design, test, and record the actual performance of the system, so as that it will meet the requirements of the furnace.  I will also submit the design and measurements to you in order to ensure I am not overstressing the unit.  My plan is to operate well within guidelines, essentially "babying" the furnace.  I'd like to see maximum longevity from the furnace, and I refuse to comprmise on safety.  It will be set up correctly.  

I myself, am a journeyman machinist with a rather extensive welding background.  Understanding stresses and thermal expansion of materials is a key component of my trade.  This being said, with a basic understanding of the stoves function, the interaction of thermal stress between the front plate of the furnace, the heat exchanger, and the firebox does concern me.  When the heat exchanger and the firebox are heated at different rates, thermal expansion of the components will be different.  As a result, the two components are fighting each other through the front plate of the furnace.  As the front plate is loaded in shear (and likely torsion at points) this proves to be the weak link where failure occurs.  Even when operating under ideal circumstances, there is the possibility of several loading events during a normal burn cycle ie: during secondary burn, heat exchanger tubes are hottest, thus pressing forward at the top of the front of the stove.  As the wood degasses, coal burn takes over, placing the majority of the heat in the firebox itself.  The heat exchanger contracts, the firebox expands, and reverses the bending force on the front of the stove.  This repeated stress may be causing failure, even without a discrete over-temperature event.

This theory is borne out in online reports that your updated model has free-floated the heat exchanger body from the front wall of the furnace. 

You have assured me that the original design of the stove will survive normal usage under ideal installation situations.  Again, I will satisfy the requirements set out in the manual, and have professional record to verify.  In the event of failure of the unit, please assure me that the warranty will apply and that an updated unit or repair options will be available.

Best regards,

mcmac


----------



## mcmac

They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being.  If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.


----------



## lexybird

mcmac said:


> They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being.  If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.


 They are good about warranty and update stuff hope it works out btw I'm a journeyman toolmaker your in good company


----------



## DoubleB

mcmac said:


> Claiming that every front end failure of the tundra was related to either over drafting or inadequate air through the unit. They see no reason that I shouldn't put my serial 1906 into service, and that the redesign was done in order to make the unit more resiliant to poor installation (operation?) conditions.



Total BS.  Yes, some user abuse has happened.  But the only long-time Tundra member that I can currently think of without cracking is @3fordasho (x2 furnaces), perhaps because he added temp control before even his first fire.  The redesign was done because the original design was not acceptable even before each furnace shipped out the door.


----------



## Digger79

mcmac said:


> They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being.  If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.



They're full of crap. They r hoping you're doesn't fail. If u cut those welds around the HE and install good firebrick(I tucked a little rock wool in the inside corners too. See earlier pics posted) u should be ok. The other thing you need from SBI more than anything IMO is the new fan and high limit switches, the high temp wire. And wire chase so u can update that aspect of stove. Most important thing u need is high limit and fan both coming on much much sooner. This is the biggest difference I have noticed after getting the updated replacement. U get those switches proper u should be fine. Honestly I think the high limit is the main problem. Old model got way too damn hot.. However nothing ever got anyhere near over fire on the old unit. Hottest temps it saw was 450-475 maybe 500 and it cracked. They will replace it though if it fails and DO NOT let them repair get replacement unit if u have failures. Good luck! They r great furnaces when they work!


----------



## Digger79

If u just bought it and haven't fired it can u not return it to the store?


----------



## Digger79

And I mean firebox temps measured on face of stove w surface therm. never got over 500 ever. Therm. located right next to top left corner of door. I have surface therm on HE door too and old unit got 100-200 deg hotter at HE than new one.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Well boys and girls. Got my heatmax today came in today. Went and picked up and checked build date August 2015 good to go. Now wondering if anyone has any tips to get this thing in basement i.e. How many people? Dolly or no? What to remove from it cause it's bloody heavy? And weather I should remove fan and housing?  I have posted the route in pictures unfortunately I don't have a walk in basement.  Did I mention this thing is fricken heavy?


----------



## brenndatomu

mcmac said:


> They did, however, inform me that they will send out the firebrick and restrictor plate upgrade free of charge...It looks like I'm stuck with the thing for the time being.  If it fails, I hope the warranty is as good as they say.





lexybird said:


> They are good about warranty and update stuff hope it works out btw I'm a journeyman toolmaker your in good company





DoubleB said:


> Total BS.  Yes, some user abuse has happened.  But the only long-time Tundra member that I can currently think of without cracking is @3fordasho (x2 furnaces), perhaps because he added temp control before even his first fire.  The redesign was done because the original design was not acceptable even before each furnace shipped out the door.


99% of people have been very happy with SBIs customer service and warranty...*but,* they seem to like to point fingers...BIG TIME! It may be true that some people have not done perfect installs...or had overfires...but so have the majority of wood furnaces out there. You don't see Hotblast furnaces cracking all over the place...and they are known to overfire regularly! Pretty bad when USSC can make a less fragile product. It would be nice if they (SBI) would just accept some responsibility. I suppose they kinda are...in the form of replacement furnaces. Alright, rant over.

That said, if I were installing a brand new Tundra...and lets just say it's going in a basement that is a bugger to install and remove furnaces from...I would do two things that I'm 99.9% sure would insure long term durability for Tundra
1. Install a PID temp controller like has been discussed many times before here.
2. Install a ICM speed controller on the blower like I talked about on the last page (post #1351). I have really been impressed with this thing, it has exceeded my expectations by far. _It keeps the furnace cooler because it starts the blower at a low speed as soon as the firebox starts to warm instead of after things are already rockin_. And you can speed the blower up by one or more speeds higher than you would normally be able to run, because the controller will slow or speed up the blower to "match" heat output. And the best part...toward the end of the burn, when all you have is coals left...the blower runs on low for hours on end...thus taking advantage of the low steady heat output that is still there...just so I'm clear, this mod has made a very noticeable difference in the heat output performance of my Tundra!

A different way of looking at this would be a big city cab ride...picture a crabby cabby that floors it when the light turns green (fan switch turns on) then drives with the throttle pinned to the floor the whole time, except for when he comes to a red light (fan switch turns off) that results in locking the brakes up, coming to a screeching halt...a rough ride for sure. Rinse and repeat...all day long.

Now contrast this to highly skilled limo driver, he pulls away smoothly from a green light (speed controller starts on low) by operating the throttle and brakes with a light touch that matches the flow of traffic (speed controller ramps blower up/down as needed to match furnace temp)
He then anticipates upcoming red lights by lifting the throttle and applying the brakes (speed control runs the blower at a very low speed for hours before stopping) in a way that would never spill your champagne. The result is a smooth and much less _stressful_ ride for you, less fuel used, and less wear and tear on the car.

Anyways, my personal opinion is that these two controllers installed on a new Tundra would insure that it would see many years of service.
Once again, I'll mention personal responsibility, doing mods like this means you could possibly void your warranty...and homeowners insurance, so if you "electrically challenged", or just aren't completely comfortable doing things like this, then don't do it. If things were wired up wrong, or an aftermarket controller would fail, there could be catastrophic results...just so you understand, proceed at your own risk.


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> View attachment 175295
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> View attachment 175298
> View attachment 175299
> View attachment 175300
> View attachment 175301
> View attachment 175302
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well boys and girls. Got my heatmax today came in today. Went and picked up and checked build date August 2015 good to go. Now wondering if anyone has any tips to get this thing in basement i.e. How many people? Dolly or no? What to remove from it cause it's bloody heavy? And weather I should remove fan and housing?  I have posted the route in pictures unfortunately I don't have a walk in basement.  Did I mention this thing is fricken heavy?


Good deal! 
Dolly...yes.
Blower box off...yes.
You could remove all the firebrick and the door to lighten it more.
Once you have it in it's final spot, check that the firebox baffle is in it's proper position (centered, seated, and all the way back)


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> Hotblast furnaces cracking all over the place...and they are known to overfire regularly! Pretty bad when USSC can make a le


Can confirm ussc hotblast here run pretty hard in the last few yrs I've owned it. No issues except fan which I changes out for a larger furnace fan. And thermostatic spring control in inlet damper starting to go! Hoping my heatmax stands the test of time


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> Good deal!
> Dolly...yes.
> Blower box off...yes.
> You could remove all the firebrick and the door to lighten it more.
> Once you have it in it's final spot, check that the firebox baffle is in it's proper position (centered, seated, and all the way back)


I was thinking that. Door off brick out. Fan off. Dolly and 3 people. Hoping I can man handle her in no damage or injury!


----------



## maple1

I would strip that puppy as much as I possibly could. Good luck, that looks like an adventure in moving, for sure.


----------



## jb6l6gc

maple1 said:


> I would strip that puppy as much as I possibly could. Good luck, that looks like an adventure in moving, for sure.


Well old homeowner got hotblast in
So I'm sure it can be done


----------



## mcmac

Thanks for all the responses and good info guys, I never though I'd encounter such an avid developer community for...wood furnaces!

Since I haven't figured out how to reply with quotes, I'll try to answer as much as I can without them...

I got the stove on clearance at HH for basically 40$ over their cost.  Returning it would basically mean that I'd have to order it elsewhere for full price, which is enough of a price difference that I can't justify right now.  That being said, if this one packs it in and I have to replace it, swapping it out isn't really a big deal.  The stove will basically sit just inside the basement right next to the door.  I have an excavator available to sling heavy things in and out of the back of the pickup.

My unit has that galvanized wire conduit run up on top of the plenum.  I think somebody said that this means it has the updated temp sensors?  I agree that having the fans come on sooner and stay on longer will go a long way to reducing thermal stresses on the unit.  My manual states the sensors are "thermodisc 36t11 L200" and "ceramic thermodisc f110-20F"  Can anyone confirm if these are the latest sensors?

The HH people were surprised SBI hasn't initiated a recall on these units, if the problem is indeed that widespread.  It seems simple to me what the problem is, as I detailed in the email I sent them...the HX and firebox both should not be welded to the same front plate.  I've got half a mind to take my angle grinder out to the shed and stuff a zip cut into the front of the thing until the HX door housing is fully free of the front plate.  

How welded on is that HX to the front?  All I see are those cheezy tacks along the bottom, I'm assuming they barfed a bunch of weld along the back of the thing?  I can't see those tacks being able to twist up and crack the front plate like has been happening..

I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions about this thing, besides, reading about all the adventures here is certainly entertaining!


----------



## mcmac

jb6l6gc said:


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> 
> Well boys and girls. Got my heatmax today came in today. Went and picked up and checked build date August 2015 good to go. Now wondering if anyone has any tips to get this thing in basement i.e. How many people? Dolly or no? What to remove from it cause it's bloody heavy? And weather I should remove fan and housing?  I have posted the route in pictures unfortunately I don't have a walk in basement.  Did I mention this thing is fricken heavy?




Those stairs look like fun.  Good luck!


----------



## jb6l6gc

Man just trying to re read this whole thread before my install  56 pages whoaa!  Looks like brenndatomu is the authority on this this thing as he is the one that started this thread. Wondering if theres any chance anyone would be insterested to compile and start a " thread everything tundra and heatmax install" and keep it just to the verified install information and mods.   ie. Sensors  tips and tricks.  56 pages of discussion to pull the good info from is tough.  I think everyone on this site became beta testers and look whats been achieved.


----------



## brenndatomu

mcmac said:


> Since I haven't figured out how to reply with quotes,


Highlight the words that you want to reply to, then click the reply button that pops up. Or just click reply for the whole post.


mcmac said:


> How welded on is that HX to the front? All I see are those cheezy tacks along the bottom, I'm assuming they barfed a bunch of weld along the back of the thing?


Just on the front I believe


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> Man just trying to re read this whole thread before my install  56 pages whoaa!  Looks like brenndatomu is the authority on this this thing as he is the one that started this thread. Wondering if theres any chance anyone would be insterested to compile and start a " thread everything tundra and heatmax install" and keep it just to the verified install information and mods.   ie. Sensors  tips and tricks.  56 pages of discussion to pull the good info from is tough.  I think everyone on this site became beta testers and look whats been achieved.


Nah, I'm no authority, just a wood heat junky obsessed on making these things work better(er)  and y'all help feed my addiction here! 
 Well, that's what this thread started out as...and then it just kind of developed into, well, more, a lot more, in the last year or so. Been thinking about starting another one, but I'm not sure how much that would really help...you'd just have two threads to read instead of one big one...what do y'all think about it?


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> I was thinking that. Door off brick out. Fan off. Dolly and 3 people. Hoping I can man handle her in no damage or injury!


Well I loaded a 500lb safe out the back of my pick up and in my house by myself using leverage, 2x10's.. And a dolly. Im 150lbs soaking wet.

Id use A few 2x8's an screw em down to the stairs in the middle like a slide. 2 men below unit 1 above. Should leave enough room on both sides of the 2x8, mybe u need 2x6 pending your dolly wheels, for the guys below to still have good footing on sides of stairs. Man up top straddles the ramp. Use a furniture dolly w a strap! Should have plenty of control w 3 men on it. Ive done this before w heavy crap. Its better than trying to lower off each step trust me just be safe n be smart.


jb6l6gc said:


> Man just trying to re read this whole thread before my install  56 pages whoaa!  Looks like brenndatomu is the authority on this this thing as he is the one that started this thread. Wondering if theres any chance anyone would be insterested to compile and start a " thread everything tundra and heatmax install" and keep it just to the verified install information and mods.   ie. Sensors  tips and tricks.  56 pages of discussion to pull the good info from is tough.  I think everyone on this site became beta testers and look whats been achieved.


lol its a good crowd here. lotta jabber though I know I did most of it. sorry. haha


----------



## jb6l6gc

Please do but like i said just keep it to the the verified and agreed on most important points from this thread only. Coles notes version im only on page 5 im dying here!


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> I was thinking that. Door off brick out. Fan off. Dolly and 3 people. Hoping I can man handle her in no damage or injury!


Well I loaded a 500lb safe out the back of my pick up and in my house by myself using leverage, 2x10's.. And a dolly. Im 150lbs soaking wet.

Id use A few 2x8's an screw em down to the stairs in the middle like a slide. 2 men below unit 1 above. Should leave enough room on both sides of the 2x8, mybe u need 2x6 pending your dolly wheels, for the guys below to still have good footing on sides of stairs. Man up top straddles the ramp. Use a furniture dolly w a strap! Should have plenty of control w 3 men on it. Ive done this before w heavy crap. Its better than trying to lower off each step trust me just be safe n be smart.


jb6l6gc said:


> Man just trying to re read this whole thread before my install  56 pages whoaa!  Looks like brenndatomu is the authority on this this thing as he is the one that started this thread. Wondering if theres any chance anyone would be insterested to compile and start a " thread everything tundra and heatmax install" and keep it just to the verified install information and mods.   ie. Sensors  tips and tricks.  56 pages of discussion to pull the good info from is tough.  I think everyone on this site became beta testers and look whats been achieved.


lol its a good crowd here. lotta jabber though I know I did most of it. sorry. haha 


Digger79 said:


> Well I loaded a 500lb safe out the back of my pick up and in my house by myself using leverage, 2x10's.. And a dolly. Im 150lbs soaking wet.
> 
> Id use A few 2x8's an screw em down to the stairs in the middle like a slide. 2 men below unit 1 above. Should leave enough room on both sides of the 2x8, mybe u need 2x6 pending your dolly wheels, for the guys below to still have good footing on sides of stairs. Man up top straddles the ramp. Use a furniture dolly w a strap! Should have plenty of control w 3 men on it. Ive done this before w heavy crap. Its better than trying to lower off each step trust me just be safe n be smart.
> 
> lol its a good crowd here. lotta jabber though I know I did most of it. sorry. haha


ahh I didn't see that landing. forget the slide not worth it. U got it man!


----------



## jb6l6gc

Digger79 said:


> Well I loaded a 500lb safe out the back of my pick up and in my house by myself using leverage, 2x10's.. And a dolly. Im 150lbs soaking wet.
> 
> Id use A few 2x8's an screw em down to the stairs in the middle like a slide. 2 men below unit 1 above. Should leave enough room on both sides of the 2x8, mybe u need 2x6 pending your dolly wheels, for the guys below to still have good footing on sides of stairs. Man up top straddles the ramp. Use a furniture dolly w a strap! Should have plenty of control w 3 men on it. Ive done this before w heavy crap. Its better than trying to lower off each step trust me just be safe n be smart.
> 
> lol its a good crowd here. lotta jabber though I know I did most of it. sorry. haha


I like that idea. Thanks


----------



## DoubleB

jb6l6gc said:


> Now wondering if anyone has any tips to get this thing in basement



Ask @bpwelding2005 , if he's still around.  Not sure maybe page 6-8 or so he showed his install, amazed me.  Took out a window and a staircase, rigged up a boom on the skidsteer to move Tundra through the window into stairwell and chain-hoist it down.  

As for yours, are you sure it can even fit geometrically (even if you had a gorilla to handle it)?  For example at the top of your stairway, your hallway might not let you get it into the door.  I'd get the tape measure out first, and if it's geometrically impossible, then you might not need to determine how many people.  

What are the dimensions on your hotblast?


----------



## Digger79

mcmac said:


> Thanks for all the responses and good info guys, I never though I'd encounter such an avid developer community for...wood furnaces!
> 
> Since I haven't figured out how to reply with quotes, I'll try to answer as much as I can without them...
> 
> I got the stove on clearance at HH for basically 40$ over their cost.  Returning it would basically mean that I'd have to order it elsewhere for full price, which is enough of a price difference that I can't justify right now.  That being said, if this one packs it in and I have to replace it, swapping it out isn't really a big deal.  The stove will basically sit just inside the basement right next to the door.  I have an excavator available to sling heavy things in and out of the back of the pickup.
> 
> My unit has that galvanized wire conduit run up on top of the plenum.  I think somebody said that this means it has the updated temp sensors?  I agree that having the fans come on sooner and stay on longer will go a long way to reducing thermal stresses on the unit.  My manual states the sensors are "thermodisc 36t11 L200" and "ceramic thermodisc f110-20F"  Can anyone confirm if these are the latest sensors?
> 
> The HH people were surprised SBI hasn't initiated a recall on these units, if the problem is indeed that widespread.  It seems simple to me what the problem is, as I detailed in the email I sent them...the HX and firebox both should not be welded to the same front plate.  I've got half a mind to take my angle grinder out to the shed and stuff a zip cut into the front of the thing until the HX door housing is fully free of the front plate.
> 
> How welded on is that HX to the front?  All I see are those cheezy tacks along the bottom, I'm assuming they barfed a bunch of weld along the back of the thing?  I can't see those tacks being able to twist up and crack the front plate like has been happening..
> 
> I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions about this thing, besides, reading about all the adventures here is certainly entertaining!


Id cut the welds for sure. The new units they left a pretty good gap around it cause it expands of course all ways not just forward. They covered the gap with a cover plate cut around the HE clean out door that stops just below the HE clean out door. Skilled as you sound you could prob turn that furnace into the newer model my friend. Im not sure what all is different inside yet however. We'll know soon as summer gets here. I still have both units. I kept the old unit. What do I do with it now? Need a welder. anyways you can see my HE on this new model they warrantied for me is still pushing into the upper corner of the cover plate they installed and crushing/bending the inside of the corner up just a few millimeters or so but its obvious its expanding up into it.

So maybe cut around it not just the welds and make you a plate and paint it. SBI sent me there stove paint.... and some gloves, moisture meter and of course a replacement stove. They where pretty quick to warranty mine after seeing my pics, of all the cracking going on, then seeing my installation (THX to Brenndatomu he is an Authority here I don't care what he says), they saw and were fully aware of my temp controller, my ducting lines, They approved my installation and operating temps and replaced it right away. took umm 5 days I believe maybe a weekend in between there but that was the shipping company. SBI had the stove in Indianapolis in 2 days. I told them I would freeze to death if the current stove broke open and I had to quit using it. lol. Seriously I did. Said I had no other form of Heat really and would run out of gas by the end of winter.. which actually is kinda true. I got an insert the will easily heat the house so long as Im home to load it.

The old unit actually had not failed really just had minor surface cracks all around the firebox and one at the corner of the HE clean out door.. which was just the outer panel of the stove anyhow not the actual HE it self. Any ways it does have cracks at the welds inside the door in the corners too. However I lined it with fire brick before I got the new stove and the cracking didn't go anywhere as I continued to use it. I actually over fired it or tried too any ways, burned it hotter than I ever had just to see if I could get a failure once I knew the new stove was shipping.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Good point on the measuring. I guess i shoulda done that first just figured since the hotblast got down there somehkw that this would. So my plan is to remove both doors at the top of the stairs to make more room the move around. Measurment shows it will fit easy if i remove the fan and fan housing  Use a dolly to get through front door onto some sort of cart . Cart over and turn at top of stairs onto rails screwed into stairs . Manhandle down rails and stairs onto cart at bottom where it can stay until im ready to take hotblast out of srevice . Replace fan and shroud on heatmax and prepare for install day. Worry about getting hotblast out of basement whenever!


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> Man just trying to re read this whole thread before my install  56 pages whoaa!  Looks like brenndatomu is the authority on this this thing as he is the one that started this thread. Wondering if theres any chance anyone would be insterested to compile and start a " thread everything tundra and heatmax install" and keep it just to the verified install information and mods.   ie. Sensors  tips and tricks.  56 pages of discussion to pull the good info from is tough.  I think everyone on this site became beta testers and look whats been achieved.


yeah but its a hoot! (same guy who says neat) lol


----------



## jb6l6gc

Just measured again dont think i can make the turn at the landing however i can make it without turning and go down the bottom sideways if i remove fan and control box from the back  how hard it all this to remove.? This is the only logical way i can see


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Ask @bpwelding2005 , if he's still around.  Not sure maybe page 6-8 or so he showed his install, amazed me.  Took out a window and a staircase, rigged up a boom on the skidsteer to move Tundra through the window into stairwell and chain-hoist it down.
> 
> As for yours, are you sure it can even fit geometrically (even if you had a gorilla to handle it)?  For example at the top of your stairway, your hallway might not let you get it into the door.  I'd get the tape measure out first, and if it's geometrically impossible, then you might not need to determine how many people.
> 
> What are the dimensions on your hotblast?


it will fit no problem. get the fan box off. its only 26" wide and like 48" tall. basically has the dimension of half a sheet of ply wood with fan off side ways so no worries that way and its only 2' the other way.. well 26". Two men under it will easily be able to hold it. specially with one on top. U could prob roll it off each step too but be much tougher. if you use a ramp and you may want to but some safety measures in like some chocks  for the guys below so they can stop the dolly wheels if needed I dunno maybe just a 2x4? Get creative but safety first that always my M.O. That thing will kill anyone it falls on for sure. Of course you''l have to stop and turn at the landing.. The ramp should lead the dolly wheels rt to the spot you need to turn on though. Might take a quick look at your stairs as well to be sure they are safe enough to support all this weight. 500lbs plus as well 3 180 lbs Im guessing men.. Thats a lot of stress and as a GC I can tell you I seen some week stairs in my days. Those short stairs should be good and solid but I'd look em over and put in a few extra supports if you see anything concerning.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Ask @bpwelding2005 , if he's still around.  Not sure maybe page 6-8 or so he showed his install, amazed me.  Took out a window and a staircase, rigged up a boom on the skidsteer to move Tundra through the window into stairwell and chain-hoist it down.
> 
> As for yours, are you sure it can even fit geometrically (even if you had a gorilla to handle it)?  For example at the top of your stairway, your hallway might not let you get it into the door.  I'd get the tape measure out first, and if it's geometrically impossible, then you might not need to determine how many people.
> 
> What are the dimensions on your hotblast?


The Gorilla would be most helpful too.


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> Just measured again dont think i can make the turn at the landing however i can make it without turning and go down the bottom sideways if i remove fan and control box from the back  how hard it all this to remove.? This is the only logical way i can see


agreed. shouldn't be that tough. few wires few screws Id think.


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> Just measured again dont think i can make the turn at the landing however i can make it without turning and go down the bottom sideways if i remove fan and control box from the back  how hard it all this to remove.? This is the only logical way i can see


U don't think it will turn with the fan box off? Slide to landing with fan box off. turn slide to concrete. U maybe could even lay it back and literally slide it on a blanket and stand it up when the bottom corner planes out at the landing below I'd just make sure the joist are perpendicular or the pressure of a 500lb stove all on one edge may crush through the ply wood.. nah Im just messing with you you got this. get some friends. ropes, blankets, dolly what ever it takes get that fan box off there... You'll have it running with pics on here in days I just know it.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Thanks man reminds me of the time i reno'd tge bathroom at my old 1920 wartime house had to get tubs in and out through window at bottom of stairs off neighbours garage roof. Definetly a challenge to say the least . Still wondering if i should save the hotblast and install in my shop thats the least of my worries right now. Tommorows supposed to be warm so ill prob go out to garage and disassemble this beast as much as i can


----------



## mcmac

Digger79 said:


> Id cut the welds for sure. The new units they left a pretty good gap around it cause it expands of course all ways not just forward. They covered the gap with a cover plate cut around the HE clean out door that stops just below the HE clean out door. Skilled as you sound you could prob turn that furnace into the newer model my friend. Im not sure what all is different inside yet however. We'll know soon as summer gets here. I still have both units.




As much as I want to "fix" this thing, I'm probably going to leave it and see what happens.  If I start modifying it then it's game over warranty wise.  I'm confident that I could totally make it last, but the reality is I shouldnt have to.  If it fails, I warranty for the new one.  Stupid and wasteful, I know.


----------



## Digger79

So about these speed controlled fans. I am seeing some benefit to these but mainly a false sense of warmth or comfort such as avoiding a few minutes of a cool draft more than anything else. One of the guys on here I feel has a good understanding of heat transfer mentioned if the blower comes on earlier and goes off later then any heat that comes off the stove that can be is being pushed into the house or duct work. In my case this is fairly important as my stove is in a separate garage so radiant heat is a waist for putting heat in the house. Of course it heats the garage though. Well my point is I feel like the varying speeds have little effect on how much more heat you will put in the house and for me thats the ultimate goal. My fans setting is on high and the air come blasting out of my registers. If I turned that fan down in speed at any point thru out the burn I would be putting less heat in the house period. it might feel warmer cause there is no breeze in certain areas by registers in hallways and such but its loosing heat if the stove is hot and the fan is not running.. the house I mean. The damn fan never goes off. not till way at the end of the burn cycles like the last few hours it will start to cycle. So I set it to high to see if it would cool the plenum faster and shut off giving my elect usage a break.  nope. When the air comes out of the registers at first its a little cool but after just a few minutes its warm then in 10-15 minutes its getting hot an just gets hotter. Takes along time for it to become warm and only cycles for a short while again as cool. I firmly believe Brenndatomu was right, I believe it was him who said the sooner the fan turns on and later it comes off the more heat goes in. I noticed a warmer house with the new stove. only thing that really makes sense. everything was exactly the same. I don't mind the cool air at first I want all the heat that thing puts off pushed in the house. 68 deg or 140 deg. its still warmer than 0 degrees!


----------



## Digger79

mcmac said:


> As much as I want to "fix" this thing, I'm probably going to leave it and see what happens.  If I start modifying it then it's game over warranty wise.  I'm confident that I could totally make it last, but the reality is I shouldnt have to.  If it fails, I warranty for the new one.  Stupid and wasteful, I know.


good move


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Been thinking about starting another one, but I'm not sure how much that would really help...you'd just have two threads to read instead of one big one...what do y'all think about it?



Maybe consider a furnace install thread, not brand specific.  All furnaces need the same install for the space they are being put in. Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat, but a tundra install will have the same rules of any other unit. Only difference would be that octopus choice of a plenum they are putting out now.

God knows its needed, Have to have a rule that if you do not know what you are talking about, you can't go all MR Know it all, giving facts and Chit.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Well just read entire install manual, pretty confident i can strip allot of weight from this thing to get her downstairs, 30 firebricks wow  think my hotblast has 12 lol.  Heres the list of what im gonna remove. Door, firebricks, combustion tubes, baffle, ash pan, damper motor and housing, fan and housing, and various tools manuals and parts in it then i think it will fit no prob and be a ton lighter for safeties sake. Plus like previos post said  re enforce stairs with a bunch of temporary posts. Love this thread already!


----------



## DoubleB

jb6l6gc said:


> Door, firebricks, combustion tubes, baffle, ash pan, damper motor and housing, fan and housing, and various tools manuals and parts in it



Heck you could even pull off the side plates, top plate, maybe a rear plate on there, just like @brenndatomu has gotten really good at.  Probably a bunch more removable things once you get inside of there too.  Of course then you need to find something to hold onto and to make sure all the internals don't get damaged.  

Even the damper door, HX cleanout door, etc. could come off.  Interesting to think about how light it could get.


----------



## laynes69

I know when I moved our Caddy, I tore it down to a basic firebox. Air jacket, tubes, firebricks, baffle and blower were removed. It was lighter, but still very heavy.


----------



## Digger79

mcmac said:


> As much as I want to "fix" this thing, I'm probably going to leave it and see what happens.  If I start modifying it then it's game over warranty wise.  I'm confident that I could totally make it last, but the reality is I shouldnt have to.  If it fails, I warranty for the new one.  Stupid and wasteful, I know.



U should see if SBI will do the updates on site for you. Try it. Email them. If they do it your covered and it shouldn't have any issues after they make all the adjustments. Be better to have them do that before anything cracks cause you know how well repaired welds may be for a steel firebox.. This may be a touch difficult to get done but if you discuss it with them in the proper manner such as suggesting they do this now rather than replacing the stove down the road it could save them a ton of money in paying a welder plus doing the updates or replacing the unit. Im serious they just may do it because they know its probably going to crack. There hoping you don't fire it up hot enough to crack it I am sure. Again the biggest issue really is the firebox door. line that thing with fire brick and you should be ok along with getting the high limit switch and fan to come on real soon.. before HE gets hot to the touch. Even if the HE stuff cracks I honestly am not so sure it will hurt an real integrity of the stove.


----------



## Digger79

This pile was even about 3 1/2 - 4 weeks ago.. Not bad not bad at all.. Weather was decently cold an I burn more wood than I really need playing around w stuff. There is no stack on the far corner by the stove ever. This is all the closer I care to get that much fuel to the furnace.


----------



## Digger79

mcmac said:


> As much as I want to "fix" this thing, I'm probably going to leave it and see what happens.  If I start modifying it then it's game over warranty wise.  I'm confident that I could totally make it last, but the reality is I shouldnt have to.  If it fails, I warranty for the new one.  Stupid and wasteful, I know.


and maybe let them know if it does fail you will refuse the repair and demand a replacement. That may push them to do the update up front for you to avoid the replacement cost down the road. With there track record it should be obvious to them replacement is going to be likely.


----------



## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> Maybe consider a furnace install thread, not brand specific.  All furnaces need the same install for the space they are being put in. Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat, but a tundra install will have the same rules of any other unit. Only difference would be that octopus choice of a plenum they are putting out now.
> 
> God knows its needed, Have to have a rule that if you do not know what you are talking about, you can't go all MR Know it all, giving facts and Chit.


This thread is great! Its a great place for literally "everything" drolet tundra as it says.. its great for newbies, There will always be plenty of people who don't know what they are talking about at times myself included. My self at times may think I understand things one way and speaking out helps correct yourself so long as you are open minded an openly admit you may not know everything or even what your talking about. Which I repeat often.  Personally my thinking that has been incorrect has been altered several times in this manner. I think its great. If you guys want an experts only page for mods then go for it just be nice to people there's no need for rudeness. Most the people on this thread are great, are having a lot of fun and the thread is quite entertaining. Kinda thought the whole idea here is for people who don't know regardless if they think they know. The corrections are helpful so long as EVERYONE keeps and open mind. I will always listen to the voice of experience regardless of what I already know or think I now. Thanks for starting this Thread Brenndatomu I think its fantastic. If anyone is bored or annoyed with the thread then they should just leave.


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> If anyone is bored or annoyed with the thread then they should just leave.



I tend to agree.  I'm concerned, however, that in the last several days this thread has been filled with too many updates about things that don't actually matter, to the point that those who really want to learn and share about Tundras are getting "bored or annoyed with the thread and just leaving."  

At least for me, I'm losing interesting in this thread for the first time in 2 seasons.  I hope we can return to content that people find interesting enough to come and share without having to wade through too many uninteresting posts.


----------



## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> Maybe consider a furnace install thread, not brand specific.  All furnaces need the same install for the space they are being put in. Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat, but a tundra install will have the same rules of any other unit. Only difference would be that octopus choice of a plenum they are putting out now.
> 
> God knows its needed, Have to have a rule that if you do not know what you are talking about, you can't go all MR Know it all, giving facts and Chit.


This thread is great! Its a great place for literally "everything" drolet tundra as it says.. its great for newbies, There will always be plenty of people who don't know what they are talking about at times myself included. My self at times may think I understand things one way and speaking out helps correct yourself so long as you are open minded an openly admit you may not know everything or even what your talking about. Which I repeat often.  Personally my thinking that has been incorrect has been altered several times in this manner. I think its great. If you guys want an experts only page for mods then go for it just be nice to people there's no need for rudeness. Most the people on this thread are great, are having a lot of fun and the thread is quite entertaining. Kinda thought the whole idea here is for people who don't know regardless if they think they know. The corrections are helpful so long as EVERYONE keeps and open mind. I will always listen to the voice of experience regardless of what I already know or think I now. Thanks for starting this Thread Brenndatomu I think its fantastic. If anyone is bored or annoyed with the thread then they should just leave.


DoubleB said:


> I tend to agree.  I'm concerned, however, that in the last several days this thread has been filled with too many updates about things that don't actually matter, to the point that those who really want to learn and share about Tundras are getting "bored or annoyed with the thread and just leaving."
> 
> At least for me, I'm losing interesting in this thread for the first time in 2 seasons.  I hope we can return to content that people find interesting enough to come and share without having to wade through too many uninteresting posts.



I admit some of that was prob me. I blabber alot. i'll wrk on keeping posts a bit shorter, and more to the point. Its just hard cause all the most the folks on here r such good natured people who have a little fun on here its easy to get distracted and start joking around. I sure Dont want to ruin the thread though as its been most helpful. I see your point an myself will wrk to keep posts more tundra specific from this post on.


----------



## mcmac

Digger79 said:


> and maybe let them know if it does fail you will refuse the repair and demand a replacement. That may push them to do the update up front for you to avoid the replacement cost down the road. With there track record it should be obvious to them replacement is going to be likely.




Got a message back from SBI re the rant that I sent them.  All they said was "if it breaks we will repair or replace it, the Tundra being no exception".  Absolutely no discussion of thermal stresses and expansion rates.  As if a wood fire is going to get hot enough to hurt plain carbon steel without a bunch of other stuff going wrong.  

If it's gonna get welding, I'm going to do it.  Will have to talk to the local shop I used to work for so I can be covered by their certification.  

I wonder what kind of welding standard covers stove repair welding?  It's not a pressure vessel or boiler, and it's not structural, so CWB/CSA doesn't apply.  It's only plain carbon steel, so really any process will work...

In other news, I checked the online Tundra manual and checked the part numbers for the fan thermoswitches.  According to their Sep 2015 manual, the part number and descriptions are the exact same, except the new model is missing one item: SE66092 "L200 Thermodisc kit".  Looks like one sensor sat on top of whatever that is on the old model, and they removed it in the new ones.  Thoughts? Advice?  Post not exciting enough?  Let me know!


----------



## Digger79

mcmac said:


> Got a message back from SBI re the rant that I sent them.  All they said was "if it breaks we will repair or replace it, the Tundra being no exception".  Absolutely no discussion of thermal stresses and expansion rates.  As if a wood fire is going to get hot enough to hurt plain carbon steel without a bunch of other stuff going wrong.
> 
> If it's gonna get welding, I'm going to do it.  Will have to talk to the local shop I used to work for so I can be covered by their certification.
> 
> I wonder what kind of welding standard covers stove repair welding?  It's not a pressure vessel or boiler, and it's not structural, so CWB/CSA doesn't apply.  It's only plain carbon steel, so really any process will work...
> 
> In other news, I checked the online Tundra manual and checked the part numbers for the fan thermoswitches.  According to their Sep 2015 manual, the part number and descriptions are the exact same, except the new model is missing one item: SE66092 "L200 Thermodisc kit".  Looks like one sensor sat on top of whatever that is on the old model, and they removed it in the new ones.  Thoughts? Advice?  Post not exciting enough?  Let me know!


If it were me I'd just make sure that fan comes on early. real early before plenum gets hot. Also make sure the high limit shuts that damper before your draft can exceed -.08 on fire ups. You can go from there on controlling the flu with the temp controller but after my experiences those are the two things I would focus on. keep that stove running cool and at spec. push the heat in the house. 

Those things should really keep your stove safe IMO. I own two and have been thru the warranty replacement so I have a little personal experience with this situation. That I feel honestly is the biggest fail safe SBI put in to stop the stoves from cracking.  I heard on this thread you can get thermo discs from grainger.com.


----------



## brenndatomu

mcmac said:


> In other news, I checked the online Tundra manual and checked the part numbers for the fan thermoswitches. According to their Sep 2015 manual, the part number and descriptions are the exact same, except the new model is missing one item: SE66092 "L200 Thermodisc kit". Looks like one sensor sat on top of whatever that is on the old model, and they removed it in the new ones. Thoughts? Advice?


I just looked the Sept 2015 manual up...the L200 is still there...#85 on the parts list. I was gonna say, that is the high limit switch, no way they can eliminate that!


----------



## mcmac

brenndatomu said:


> I just looked the Sept 2015 manual up...the L200 is still there...#85 on the parts list. I was gonna say, that is the high limit switch, no way they can eliminate that!



I sorta messed that up..let me clarify.  Both units have the same 2 sensors, 44060 Thermodisc 36T11 L200 Automatic and the 44028 Ceramic thermodisc f110-20F.  On the old unit the 44060 is pictured sitting on top of a third thing, #79, "SE66092 L200 Thermodisc Kit".  The Sep 2015 manual omits "SE66092 L200 Thermodisc Kit" and shows the sensor sitting directly on top of the sheet metal.

This begs the question, How have the fan and hi temp setpoints changed if the sensors haven't?  (if I understand the operation of a snap disc bimetallic switch correctly)
My interpretation of the part numbers in the manual indicates they have not.  I however do not understand the function of the omitted piece.

Sorry if I seem a bit pedantic about manual reading, I spend a good portion of my time scanning "g" code for any clues that our lame CAD software is about to pile up a $400K milling machine.  It has made me picky in ways..


My "old" manual is dated 20 Oct 2014, for what it's worth.

Appreciate all input, in the ongoing mystery of the Tundra!


----------



## mcmac

http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/drolet-tundra-furnace/parts

The above link shows the removed item 79, however now "out of stock"  as it's presence was probably the result of a bad idea.


----------



## brenndatomu

mcmac said:


> http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/drolet-tundra-furnace/parts
> 
> The above link shows the removed item 79, however now "out of stock"  as it's presence was probably the result of a bad idea.


79 looks like some kind of shim or washer. I bet they quit using it and now with the snap switch(s) a bit closer to the HE they can activate sooner.
There has only been 2 mounting positions for the switches
1. In the back on the original units
2. Up top in the middle between the center duct connections (current)


----------



## Digger79

mcmac said:


> I sorta messed that up..let me clarify.  Both units have the same 2 sensors, 44060 Thermodisc 36T11 L200 Automatic and the 44028 Ceramic thermodisc f110-20F.  On the old unit the 44060 is pictured sitting on top of a third thing, #79, "SE66092 L200 Thermodisc Kit".  The Sep 2015 manual omits "SE66092 L200 Thermodisc Kit" and shows the sensor sitting directly on top of the sheet metal.
> 
> This begs the question, How have the fan and hi temp setpoints changed if the sensors haven't?  (if I understand the operation of a snap disc bimetallic switch correctly)
> My interpretation of the part numbers in the manual indicates they have not.  I however do not understand the function of the omitted piece.
> 
> Sorry if I seem a bit pedantic about manual reading, I spend a good portion of my time scanning "g" code for any clues that our lame CAD software is about to pile up a $400K milling machine.  It has made me picky in ways..
> 
> 
> My "old" manual is dated 20 Oct 2014, for what it's worth.
> 
> Appreciate all input, in the ongoing mystery of the Tundra!


Ahh they removed a buffering piece of steel. I heard they changed the discs on the last two. I played around w my first Tundra's snap disc for the fan. When moving the location one thing I did to slow down how quick the disc would activate an deactivate was add 1/16" thick pieces of metal between the disc an stove top. This caused the heat to take longer to turn disc on and longer for disc to turn off. More metal has to heat an cool. Removing any metal bewteen the disc and heat will cause it to fire sooner.


----------



## Digger79

I truly think SBI finally did a good job of tuning the Tundra in with their latest version. I had all these controls setup to help the old one.. I am still using them on the new unit but the way they have it setup Im not really controlling much anyone. Snap discs are doing most the work. Similar to a post I read earlier on this thread where a guy opted to use snap discs to control flu and such rather than temp controller. I am quite impressed with the new unit, it heats very well, runs a long time, burns very little wood. Please to say the least.. or most.


----------



## centennial60

mcmac said:


> If it's gonna get welding, I'm going to do it. Will have to talk to the local shop I used to work for so I can be covered by their certification.
> 
> I wonder what kind of welding standard covers stove repair welding? It's not a pressure vessel or boiler, and it's not structural, so CWB/CSA doesn't apply. It's only plain carbon steel, so really any process will work...



I had an issue with mine where I found a small hole in one of the heat exchanger tubes. They had burnt through when welding the lifting eye on. I contacted SBI and they wanted me to take it somewhere to get welded. I stated that I have the equipment and skills to do the repair myself and they were OK with that. Never asked for any certification just a picture of the repair. So I wouldn't worry too much about that.


----------



## Digger79

Warms up a few days stove thread goes dead. lol. I am finding my draft of course suffers when temps hit 50 but then of course by that time I usually have let fire burn out or near it. 15' class A chimney. When temps hold near 45 or colder seems draft holds well. When temps get in to below freezing, single digits or worse with out my baro I would draft up to -.10 and even close to -.11. A few guys on here have been cranking their drafts up and squeezing down air intakes. I did not have great results with that. Ultimately it seems no matter what we do still the best result for over all heat in the house is to let the fire burn up to its full potential w out over fire and burn down. This makes sense as we are burning wood not gas. No matter how hard we try to slow the fire and keep or reserve full for heat calls, over all the house is warmer, heat last longer, more heat is driven into the house by simply letting fire burn up and down and letting temps drive up where ever. I get longer lasting heat w less fuel if I let stove drive house up to 74-76 rather than trying to keep it at 70 and save wood for later. The storing energy or coals and waiting for heat call does work better in mild temps but ultimately the results are still the same. It's just not instant fuel like gas no matter how hard we overthink it. lol well me anyhow.  BTW my self I don't see a problem with the high drafts so long as intakes are choked and fire is kept at reasonable temp. Simply allowing or inducing high draft with no other control over firebox or intakes could be dangerous for stoves integrity. I AM NOT AND EXPERT THESE ARE JUST MY THOUGHTS AND EXPERIENCES!


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> Warms up a few days stove thread goes dead. lol.



Yea, that tends to happen.  Kind of goes in waves.  



Digger79 said:


> BTW my self I don't see a problem with the high drafts so long as intakes are choked and fire is kept at reasonable temp. Simply allowing or inducing high draft with no other control over firebox or intakes could be dangerous for stoves integrity.



I'm thinking along the same lines.  I admit I haven't tried taking my draft over 0.06, nor have I choked the intakes.  At one point I thought it could only help, since I added over temp protection.  But then I got scared because if the power goes out and I'm not awake or around, I don't want any higher temps without a blower than what the manual says with 0.06 draft.  That's one of the specs on the furnace that ain't broke, so I don't think I'll try to fix it.

Variable speed blower, on the other hand, is fair game for me.  Parts should arrive early next week.  Can't wait!


----------



## Lcback

Allright, so Im sure some of you seen my earlier thread where you guys pointed me towards the Tundra. 
I got an email from them today, when i asked About the tundra 2

" Our tundra/HeatMax wood furnaces have gone through re-testing to meed the new EPA regulation that will come into effect in May 2016. Both Units will now feature an electronic probe that will vary the distribution blower speed based on plenum temperature, replacing our current snap disc system. Furthermore, both units will be supplied with a rectangular plenum system (see appendix C) that will allow homeowners to quickly and properly install the unit. It will still be a DIY system, since it will allow the homeowner to use flexible ducts to distribute the heat. Instead of 4 outlet possibilities, there will now be up to 10 (with a minimum of 6). But the greatest advantage of this new system will be the reduction in the number of installations that do not meet specifications. After more than 15 visits from our engineering stadd to homeowners using either a Tundra or Heatmax furnace, we have found that the percentage of installations that did not meat the owners manual requirements was in excess of 90%. most non-conformities were related to the installation of the heat distribution ducts."

So there you have it folks. New tundra will have the plenum and a probe to vary the blower speed. 
the rep also said, not to expect to see any until June. So looks like my purchase is going to be on hold for a while. I want to see the new one, and its price.


----------



## brenndatomu

I think they mis-spoke where it says "It will still be a DIY system, since it will allow the homeowner to use flexible ducts to distribute the heat." Metal flex duct would be a poor choice due to its turbulent flow characteristics, and non-metallic flex duct is NOT allowed for use as ducts for wood furnaces.
Maybe what they meant to say was that the plenum has lots of "options" to hook duct pipes to (therefore it is flexible)?? I dunno
Flex ducts are against NFPA code for wood furnaces in the US...SBI can't change that...(can they?)

You know...I think SBI is readin this thread...I make a heat shield for the front of my firebox...then they come out with their own kit...I install a blower speed control...yup, here it comes!  (and I haven't done the plenum yet, but it sure was talked about a fair amount here...they stole that too )


----------



## jb6l6gc

Lcback just brought up a good point. I think their manual for the original tundra/heatmax has an error. It says it's only able to be installed as a stand alone in Canada.  Says not permitted in Canada in series or parrallel.  I remember my hotblast manual saying series is a no go in Canada but parrallel is ok. My hotblast has always been in parrallel with no issues or inspection issues. Is this correct or is it an error. My point is what good is it as an add on if your not allowed in any way to use existing ducting


----------



## jb6l6gc

Now it says authorized in their wording not code compliant. So I wonder if it's code compliant to do parrallel in Canada however it would not be an authorized install option from sbi? Maybe their way of covering their arses on warranty?


----------



## jb6l6gc

I am trying to get a copy of Csa b365 that is the applicable code in Canada it's hard to find a pdf for it though. Anyone have it by chance?


----------



## DoubleB

Lcback said:


> But the greatest advantage of this new system will be the reduction in the number of installations that do not meet specifications. After more than 15 visits from our engineering stadd to homeowners using either a Tundra or Heatmax furnace, we have found that the percentage of installations that did not meat the owners manual requirements was in excess of 90%. most non-conformities were related to the installation of the heat distribution ducts."



I'm still kind of fascinated by this.  
1.  Wouldn't DIY homeowners have just as much chance of messing up installations of other 2-outlet furnaces?  I'm not aware of them cracking this much, so it still seems like something about the furnace other than the plenum needs to be more robust.  (To be fair, maybe competing furnaces crack just as much but we don't hear about it.)  
2.  I still don't see how the new octopus plenum is going to help.  Either SBI will insist people must use 6+ existing outlets and good luck selling those; or else they allow people to connect the furnace to an existing plenum or take-offs and they're still back to square one and the new system did nothing to reduce "the number of installations that do not meet specifications".
3.  Many of the problems we've seen on this forum have been poor return air, which Tundra II plenum doesn't address.  Again, seems the furnace should be more robust.

Oh well, I'll try to keep my orig Tundra chugging as long as I can and let this shake out.


----------



## Lcback

I'm most interested in the variable blower.


----------



## laynes69

jb6l6gc said:


> View attachment 175734
> View attachment 175735
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lcback just brought up a good point. I think their manual for the original tundra/heatmax has an error. It says it's only able to be installed as a stand alone in Canada.  Says not permitted in Canada in series or parrallel.  I remember my hotblast manual saying series is a no go in Canada but parrallel is ok. My hotblast has always been in parrallel with no issues or inspection issues. Is this correct or is it an error. My point is what good is it as an add on if your not allowed in any way to use existing ducting


You're correct. Canada does not allow parallel installations, or series on the Tundra's. They are not setup for series, so it's stand-alone only. In Canada, the Caddy would be approved for a series, or stand-alone install.


----------



## jb6l6gc

laynes69 said:


> You're correct. Canada does not allow parallel installations, or series on the Tundra's. They are not setup for series, so it's stand-alone only. In Canada, the Caddy would be approved for a series, or stand-alone install.


To me that's the biggest load of bs. Why would anyone want a wood furnace in Canada then. I would have to keep my basement over 100 degrees just to have enough heat rising to the rest of the house.  I really don't understand the logic behind this. Like I said previously my insurance and wett had no issues with my hotblast hooked up in parrallel, and I plan to hook up my new heatmax the same.


----------



## DoubleB

jb6l6gc said:


> To me that's the biggest load of bs. Why would anyone want a wood furnace in Canada then. I would have to keep my basement over 100 degrees just to have enough heat rising to the rest of the house. I really don't understand the logic behind this. Like I said previously my insurance and wett had no issues with my hotblast hooked up in parrallel, and I plan to hook up my new heatmax the same.



My insurance company said they'd cover the Tundra if it was installed per the manufacturer's instructions.  Your insurance company may likely do the same.  If your house burns down and your furnace was installed in direct conflict to SBI's instructions, you might find yourself on your own.

Probably is inconvenient for some houses.  But one option is to add a couple large registers dedicated for the Tundra.  Short and large ducts.  Works well for my house with more than enough airflow.  I understand that might not be practical or desirable in many houses.


----------



## jb6l6gc

DoubleB said:


> My insurance company said they'd cover the Tundra if it was installed per the manufacturer's instructions.  Your insurance company may likely do the same.  If your house burns down and your furnace was installed in direct conflict to SBI's instructions, you might find yourself on your own.
> 
> Probably is inconvenient for some houses.  But one option is to add a couple large registers dedicated for the Tundra.  Short and large ducts.  Works well for my house with more than enough airflow.  I understand that might not be practical or desirable in many houses.


All my insurance asked was that it was wett certified which I did and they had no issues.


----------



## jb6l6gc

I still think this is the most retarded thing I have ever seen.  And I still cannot for the life of me find a damn copy of the Csa code. They want $150 for it.  Once again Canada proves our regulatory body isn't in touch with reality.  I don't see how my house would burn down or have any issues due to a parrallel install. My ducts get warm to the touch just like any other furnace ever made.  Oh but I can drive 50km to the states and parrallel is ok. Money hungry Csa strikes again. " Canadian stupidity agency"!


----------



## jb6l6gc

DoubleB said:


> My insurance company said they'd cover the Tundra if it was installed per the manufacturer's instructions.  Your insurance company may likely do the same.  If your house burns down and your furnace was installed in direct conflict to SBI's instructions, you might find yourself on your own.
> 
> Probably is inconvenient for some houses.  But one option is to add a couple large registers dedicated for the Tundra.  Short and large ducts.  Works well for my house with more than enough airflow.  I understand that might not be practical or desirable in many houses.


Probably incovienient. Ya for sure incovienient. For anyone with more than one story like myself. How would I get ducting to upstairs without major renos. Or even lower floor for that matter where I have all ceramic and custom hardwood flooring that I'm not about to go cutting more registers into.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Well after contacting Csa, drolet(sbi), t.s.s.a, and wett nobody has given me a straight answer as to why it's not allowed to be hooked up in parrallel with the proper backdraft dampers. I have an email into the guy that approves the code for clarification after speaking with him on the phone. He wants me to pose my exact question in an email but said it has to be worded as a yes or no question. This is like chasing rainbows


----------



## laynes69

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...4cFPa5KMFbriaZrdg&sig2=U-e795u3LcqRaPIqr5GMvg

Here is a link that might help you out. I know the codes for Canada are much more strict than the U.S.


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> Like I said previously my insurance and wett had no issues with my hotblast hooked up in parrallel, and I plan to hook up my new heatmax the same.


FWIW, I'd just drop that Tundra in there and be done with it. You already had the inspection last time, and you really aren't changing anything...pretty much just gonna jack up the pipes and slide a new furnace back under. The Tundra is gonna run a cooler stove pipe and duct temps than the HotBlast, so if it was OK with it, then things will be fine with Tundra.
Chances are you still have the inspection report from the Hotblast install, if something happens, just whip that inspection report out...it would take an eagle eyed insurance guy to catch that the furnace is not the same...if it even says the furnace name on the report in the first place.
I don't think there would be any way to ID a Tundra if there was a fire anyways...there is no metal ID tag...just a sticker on the blower housing...think they will be able to read it after a fire? I think not


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> FWIW, I'd just drop that Tundra in there and be done with it. You already had the inspection last time, and you really aren't changing anything...pretty much just gonna jack up the pipes and slide a new furnace back under. The Tundra is gonna run a cooler stove pipe and duct temps than the HotBlast, so if it was OK with it, then things will be fine with Tundra.
> Chances are you still have the inspection report from the Hotblast install, if something happens, just whip that inspection report out...it would take an eagle eyed insurance guy to catch that the furnace is not the same...if it even says the furnace name on the report in the first place.
> I don't think there would be any way to ID a Tundra if there was a fire anyways...there is no metal ID tag...just a sticker on the blower housing...think they will be able to read it after a fire? I think not


Agreed I think this is exactly what I will do. Thanks for all the help guys!


----------



## DoubleB

Go ahead, your house.  And I certainly understand your reluctance to cut more holes in your floor.  A couple follow-ups nonetheless:

One potential reason to prohibit parallel installations is because when both the Tundra and the other furnace run together, you need >4x the static pressure to get 2x the airflow through your ductwork.  Result is you get less airflow through both furnaces.  Not a problem in some installations that have extra factor built in, but many installs don't have enough margin for the furnaces to compete for airflow.  @STIHLY DAN may have better perspective.

Also I don't get too hung up on having ductwork go upstairs.  Heat rises, and my upstairs is warm enough without ducts.  Just my experience.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

What would be the difference in the tundra than the caddy be? Is this question larger than we think at this point. Or is it just a financial thing, not paying to have certification tests done?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> Go ahead, your house.  And I certainly understand your reluctance to cut more holes in your floor.  A couple follow-ups nonetheless:
> 
> One potential reason to prohibit parallel installations is because when both the Tundra and the other furnace run together, you need >4x the static pressure to get 2x the airflow through your ductwork.  Result is you get less airflow through both furnaces.  Not a problem in some installations that have extra factor built in, but many installs don't have enough margin for the furnaces to compete for airflow.  @STIHLY DAN may have better perspective.
> 
> Also I don't get too hung up on having ductwork go upstairs.  Heat rises, and my upstairs is warm enough without ducts.  Just my experience.



My 2nd floor (at least 1 end) absolutely needed ductwork for a supply. I have no idea why parallel would not be ok. If a hot blast can do it........sheshhh anything should. How does the worst wood furnace out there make code but not the tundra. That's a good question for SBI. "hello SBI, why is your furnace not code compliant when the worst furnace ever made is?"


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> One potential reason to prohibit parallel installations is because when both the Tundra and the other furnace run together, you need >4x the static pressure to get 2x the airflow through your ductwork. Result is you get less airflow through both furnaces. Not a problem in some installations that have extra factor built in, but many installs don't have enough margin for the furnaces to compete for airflow. @STIHLY DAN may have better perspective


PSG offers a simple relay kit for the Caddy to "lockout" the fossil fuel furnace while the wood furnace is running...no reason you couldn't adapt one to use on a Tundra.


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> PSG offers a simple relay kit for the Caddy to "lockout" the fossil fuel furnace while the wood furnace is running...no reason you couldn't adapt one to use on a Tundra.


They offer the interlock, which is required in Canada....not sure about the U.S, and the Caddy has cutaways on either side for a series install. There's also strict duct sizing that's needed, and the static pressure must remain the same after the install.


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> Agreed I think this is exactly what I will do. Thanks for all the help guys!


well that and don't burn your house down with the stove.. so long as its not the stove that burns it down your good.


----------



## Digger79

Still struggling w this temp measuring. Seems no matter what I do the probe on the mypin varies. I tried tuning the mypin by using a setting that adjusted the read out from actual temps. I used my multimeter that measures temp to the degree up to 1500 to see what temps actually were, then adjusted mypin read out to match. Would not stay consistent. So now my pin probe is much closer but still off at different temps. When am I gunna quit trying to fix a cheap probe and just buy a better one?











I realize where and how im measuring an have reasons for that but cannot understand why I cant get accurate, consistent readings from mypin.. Other than cheap probe I refuse to replsce. Still feel like Im missing something.. Any thoughts?! Here's the adjustment setting I was using. Changed value of read outs.


----------



## Digger79

Turns out Stihly the cheap o magnet therm on the stove is not too terrible far off about 1-30 deg varying.. I mean for an analog style spring wound thing its fairly close. lol. Still seems to be leading to cheap probe.


----------



## brenndatomu

Ever try switching the polarity of the TC? Dunno if it matters or not...
FWIW, my TC was only $6.99 shipped...seems to work fine...both of 'em


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Ever try switching the polarity of the TC? Dunno if it matters or not...
> FWIW, my TC was only $6.99 shipped...seems to work fine...both of 'em


Yup. lol I've hooked that thing up every which way, tried dif input settings, re set and re set. Got it to read up to 850 no problem. Celsius.. when temps where around 80. found a way to adjust the actual temp reading up or down so tried to match the multimeter readings but still pulls away from multi meter readings which i feel are very accurate. Got be that probe.


----------



## Digger79

Im going to order a better one. was told good probes cost more. maybe you got lucky Brenndatomu.  I dunno. I'll shut up about it till I at least try a new probe at this point I guess. lol. NO WAY its me


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Use that rock wool and insulate both probes. Then see what you get.


----------



## Digger79

I tried this fellas






Results not much better.


----------



## Digger79

Was thinking probes may be off if not insulated such as in pipe. cool at diff temps.. thought about that.. should be the same even if insulated far as dif cooling temps go I'd think. maybe not. anyhow still same issues. values get off as temps change can't get mypin probe to match multimeter probe and still peaking out at 600 having to use celsius and adjust it down or it just peaks out. Da%5it!


----------



## jb6l6gc

DoubleB said:


> Go ahead, your house.  And I certainly understand your reluctance to cut more holes in your floor.  A couple follow-ups nonetheless:
> 
> One potential reason to prohibit parallel installations is because when both the Tundra and the other furnace run together, you need >4x the static pressure to get 2x the airflow through your ductwork.  Result is you get less airflow through both furnaces.  Not a problem in some installations that have extra factor built in, but many installs don't have enough margin for the furnaces to compete for airflow.  @STIHLY DAN may have better perspective.
> 
> Also I don't get too hung up on having ductwork go upstairs.  Heat rises, and my upstairs is warm enough without ducts.  Just my experience.


No they don't run together I'm either on wood or electric separate never at the same time. If I'm burning my thermostat for my electric is off and vice versa. Not an issue but thanks for the concern


----------



## jb6l6gc

STIHLY DAN said:


> My 2nd floor (at least 1 end) absolutely needed ductwork for a supply. I have no idea why parallel would not be ok. If a hot blast can do it........sheshhh anything should. How does the worst wood furnace out there make code but not the tundra. That's a good question for SBI. "hello SBI, why is your furnace not code compliant when the worst furnace ever made is?"


Actually checked yesterday
On hotblast manual apparently it's not permitted either.


----------



## Digger79

Its official. I've tested er pretty good and the current model Tundra runs much cooler on the outer surfaces all around and is heating the house I feel a little better than the old one did. So far so good pretty happy with it. The new snap disc set up is spot on. Chimney never gets much over 800 before it comes on. Thats with draft dialed at -.06 max. left house today at 7 am was 71 deg inside. At 7 pm was 66. Cold day here very windy. Wind is hard on my house. Not bad considering Tundra is in separate garage heating that too, piped into the house. I didn't load it terribly hot today either.  The fan timer switch is perfect and at this point the temp controller is simply working as a coal burn off limit for me. I am choosing to always burn the stove out as hot as I can safely so well I guess the temp controller limits that too but honestly the snap disc is just set at the right point so doesn't really matter. I am finding the hotter I burn out the load rather than trying to conserve and get the longest secondary burn I can, the warmer the house is period. there is still a ton of secondary action and the wood consumption is very very low. I find myself building smaller fires now. less wood, burn it hot = more heat in my house. More wood, burn it at cruise reburn temps all day = less heat in my house. You see it will run all day on that reburn setting blowing flames from anywhere to 3 hrs up to 4 or 5 hrs depending on the wood.. all the same I get a warmer house by letting the thermostat open it up a little more through the day. For example load it at 7 and let it burn wide open by 10 or 11 am instead of waiting till 12-2 pm to let it burn wide open. I wind up with more higher temps when I get home if I turn er loose earlier in the day. My stove is remote control from my phone. Its way passed addiction and well thru obsession. lol


----------



## DoubleB

Nice report @Digger79 .  You're one step ahead, I'm finding similar results even if on my older model Tundra.  That by starting to burn the coals a few hours into the burn, once most offgassing from my box elder is finished, that it's easier to keep the house warmer.  I originally had used the "burn coals" switch just for cold days, but now I'm using it on warmer days too, and it just seems to improve the overall cycle and heat.

800F on the chimney still seems rather hot as a general practice.  I don't think you're going to lose much heating power by lowering your controller to 600-650, but would probably save potential wear-n-tear on the furnace.  I'd just hate to see problems that could be easily avoided.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Just keep in mind, this is the WARMEST winter in the history of the world. Nearly impossible to compare performance from last year to this year.


----------



## Matt78

Does anybody know if the tundra qualifies for tax credit in usa?


----------



## trx250r87

I got the 10% tax credit 2 years ago when I bought my Tundra.


----------



## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> Just keep in mind, this is the WARMEST winter in the history of the world. Nearly impossible to compare performance from last year to this year.


Not when you switched furnaces in the middle of this winter!  I didn't get my first Tundra till Feb of last year anyhow. This year was really my first year using it then it got warrantied and swapped in the middle of this winter and literally right at the cold part of it about what 4-5 weeks ago guys is that right? I think it was middle to end of Jan when I made the swap. lemme see.. Date on my photo of new stove received was Feb 8th. The newer model comparison was good I feel as both had been ran thru out the coldest months of this season alone. If I remove the rest of the flex I had to use and get solid in, with the rest of the modifications I did this year to the stove and the ducting system, I feel pretty confident it will work well on a colder winter.


DoubleB said:


> Nice report @Digger79 .  You're one step ahead, I'm finding similar results even if on my older model Tundra.  That by starting to burn the coals a few hours into the burn, once most offgassing from my box elder is finished, that it's easier to keep the house warmer.  I originally had used the "burn coals" switch just for cold days, but now I'm using it on warmer days too, and it just seems to improve the overall cycle and heat.
> 
> 800F on the chimney still seems rather hot as a general practice.  I don't think you're going to lose much heating power by lowering your controller to 600-650, but would probably save potential wear-n-tear on the furnace.  I'd just hate to see problems that could be easily avoided.


Sorry to confuse if I did. I am not allowing the controller to operate at flu temps of 800. The flu only nears 800 on startups when I have the timer running overriding the bypass switch. The high limit switch usually shuts the stove down around 750 or so it only has hit 800 or 820 for a few seconds if I leave the door open too long after loading. Usually try to leave door open about 30 secs or so or until flu reaches around 400 before locking it and letting timer and controller take over. So I don't get all smoked up in the firebox. If I wait too long like a minute the flu can get to hot. The other factor is the timer setting. I have learned to set it to only 20 mins instead of 25-30 on full load startups. This keeps flu from getting over 750. If I set timer for 25-30 flu can hit 800-820 before high limit switch fires. The controller is set to close damper around 500-600 and open around 200-300. I do not have it wired properly to have the 2 separate limit settings. just high temp and low temp thats it. works well for me. Only problem I have is probe is cheap and temps are wrong and all over the place. I have a good multimeter that measures accurate flu temps with its prob so I just adjust mypin to function based of readings from multimeters probe.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Nice report @Digger79 .  You're one step ahead, I'm finding similar results even if on my older model Tundra.  That by starting to burn the coals a few hours into the burn, once most offgassing from my box elder is finished, that it's easier to keep the house warmer.  I originally had used the "burn coals" switch just for cold days, but now I'm using it on warmer days too, and it just seems to improve the overall cycle and heat.
> 
> 800F on the chimney still seems rather hot as a general practice.  I don't think you're going to lose much heating power by lowering your controller to 600-650, but would probably save potential wear-n-tear on the furnace.  I'd just hate to see problems that could be easily avoided.


And thanks for the warning, I know you've ran these things for a while so pretty familiar with the safe operating temps. I will try getting my controller up to the 600-650 range possibly I think I been around 5-600 on shut down recently but rem I don't have the second high/low setting like you do. seems all I really need is the low setting at the right spot so that damper opens when draft gets low. The high setting when damper closes can vary quite a bit with little change in results. The only change I get there is a littler better heat in the house if the High/close damper setting is set a little higher. I will warn folks if they gotta be careful with the T stats. the high limit on this one seems to work well but SBI should never have sold stoves with the intention of people using therms with out getting a solid safety shutdown control on the furnace period. Seems they kinda figure that out by now and people should be pretty safe and using therm on a cold house now should be ok.. unless snap disc fails. lol. Thats where the baro can help. Seems to be the best safety you can put in. mechanical.


----------



## Digger79

The little metal reflector I made from high temp duct tape marking the manometer is for the camera. So I can see the draft remotely. I have a remote control over everything so I can shut the controller off and control the T stat wireless or just shut everything down thru the power if something fails or goes wrong. I have yet to do it but have ability to set alarms that will instantly tell me on my phone if something is going wrong with the stove. Say a stray cat comes in and the two of them manage to knock something into the glass and break it open during a hot fire.. yikes! far out I know but if It happens I will know about it instantly if I get my chit in gear and rig up the alarms.


----------



## Digger79

I feel it is important to notate that the high limit switch comes on much later like at flu temps of 800-820 on during startups such as a top down fire or loading a full load on a hot coal bed and letting that surge up.. naturally the flu can get much hotter much faster than the firebox itself and the rest of the furnace as well outer areas of the plenum. This is why the timing on the timer switch for the bypass is crucial.  After fire box is warmed up or initial surge is over with from the full load.. the high limit switch will shut down the damper much sooner like around 650-700. This is why I keep saying the controller is not really doing much as the snap disc seems to operate at those temps anyhow after stove has been fired up. However controller will keep it closed for me of course for longer secondary burns after the snap disc shuts back off so it does have some function for sure and ensures damper opens at low draft despite any other factors such as heat demand. I got a nice mix of the T stat helping the loads burn to their full potential and the rest of the controls keeping the stove safe and at good flu temps. Just letting the thing cruise and not using a T stat to call for some heat, results in a colder house period. The wood consumption actually has gone down when I burn hotter fires cause I burn smaller loads. Trying to burn full loads over long periods of time simply resulted in a colder home with same or more wood consumption. I am thinking however the longer secondary burns could be more useful during the warmer weather however. In cold weather the hotter fires give more heat w less wood but in mild weather might be nice to have it cruise on low for a long time. I dunno prob not. this would simply keep us from lighting fires cause we would keep good coals but burn more wood than we need. getting lazy. likely in mild temps to use less wood and get good heat simply building even smaller fires and having to restart fires would be the key to reducing wood consumption while keeping heat demand. less work than splitting and stacking more wood I would think.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Hmm, that's a good question. Normally they say if the chimney is inside the house and structurally sound that you don't have to insulate but it is still a good idea because there is no way to know if it was really built properly as far as clearance to combustibles. Also, unless you have had a sweep come in and give the full length of the chimney a camera inspection it is still a good idea to insulate just because you never know where a crack is starting. You and your family are going to bed with a fire in the house you know...respect the fire.
> I'd insulate the full length...



wow. cool looking back a few years on this thread I can see some of your learning process too. Even though you still recommend the insulation of the chimney you had to same belief I did at the time of this post.. That insulating the pipe if inside a clay lined chimney was not necessary. U still recommend it for safety but did not mention the heat loss you explained to me in mid winter of 2016. I still have the single wall pipe thru my masonry liner with a insulated cap at the top now, after your lessons on heat loss. It does return for a while but I know now that if I get the insulation and insulate that pipe I will get less heat loss, stronger draft longer. It currently does pull hard but looses its draft of course as pipe cools off. I though the insulation of the air around the pipe in the clay liner would be enough to maintain the best draft. Nope. Need the insulation rt on the pipe. Im enjoying going back to the beginning of this thread and reading all these things I had not seen, everyone's progression thru out the last few years with these things. What and Awesome thread Brenndatomu and amazing how long its been alive and stays alive! Nice work bud.


----------



## Digger79

Wisneaky said:


> View attachment 154116
> View attachment 154117
> View attachment 154118
> View attachment 154119
> View attachment 154120
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to share something. I have one of the first couple hundred Tundra's made. A couple weeks back I was at Menards and noticed on the new Tundra's the damper door was redesigned. I emailed SBI and they sent me the new door. It comes with some sort of shiny metal insert and the new door. The new door is redesigned in a fashion that when it closes it stays open partially thus always letting in some air. Here are some pictures of the old and new.


I do not believe that damper being cracked like that is factory setting. matter fact I am pretty sure of it. I have owned two of these units now. 1 made in 2013 and the other 2015. both units damper was designed and set up to shut all the way. The changes they made were the size of the air intake holes. not the door staying open. That is incorrect and I think the rod is bent or something is hanging it up.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Curious if anyone else has paint peeling on the front of their Tundra?  See pictures below at top left of door.
> 
> In Wisneaky's post #3, he reports 325F-400F on the front of his furnace.  I'm getting the same at the same measurement location with my thermometer (that I don't necessarily trust, IR thermometer on order) which has indicated as high as 600F over the spot of peeling paint.  The below pictures were taken quite a while into a burn, within a few minutes of each other, so temps had stabilized.
> 
> I don't know if 600F is common to peel paint?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 155224
> View attachment 155225
> View attachment 155226


I currently have the updated model tundra built in 2015. Designed to run much cooler than the original and it does. In the first couple of firings that were very small fires to break the stove in.. the paint blistered at the top corners of the firebox. The flu was only hitting temps of around 5-600 at that point.. I have firebricks lined up the side of the door opening and after seeing the blistering stuffed the corners with rock wool to totally protect those corners. I posted those pics around page 55-60 somewhere can't rem but stuffed rock wool above firebrick to fill in below heat shield at top corners of firebox door. Now these blisters occurred when face of stove barley hit 300 on the cheap magnet therm. I tested those therms I am using and they only vary by about 50 deg. So if you had face temps reading 400 and a heat gun saying 600 that means your flu was possible roaring up above 800 internally. not good. The stove paint is suppose to withstand temps of 1300-1500 but never does. sand down and repaint every year to prevent rust from forming and paint blisters are not a cause for concern but should draw your attention to just how hot you are letting the furnace run. These are just my thoughts and opinions, I know I sound like a authority/know it all but I'm certainly not. Just what I currently believe to be correct. This thread has constantly changed my methods of thinking and corrected improper understanding several times. lol


----------



## Jacksprat

Digger79 said:


> I currently have the updated model tundra built in 2015. Designed to run much cooler than the original and it does. In the first couple of firings that were very small fires to break the stove in.. the paint blistered at the top corners of the firebox. The flu was only hitting temps of around 5-600 at that point.. I have firebricks lined up the side of the door opening and after seeing the blistering stuffed the corners with rock wool to totally protect those corners. I posted those pics around page 55-60 somewhere can't rem but stuffed rock wool above firebrick to fill in below heat shield at top corners of firebox door. Now these blisters occurred when face of stove barley hit 300 on the cheap magnet therm. I tested those therms I am using and they only vary by about 50 deg. So if you had face temps reading 400 and a heat gun saying 600 that means your flu was possible roaring up above 800 internally. not good. The stove paint is suppose to withstand temps of 1300-1500 but never does. sand down and repaint every year to prevent rust from forming and paint blisters are not a cause for concern but should draw your attention to just how hot you are letting the furnace run. These are just my thoughts and opinions, I know I sound like a authority/know it all but I'm certainly not. Just what I currently believe to be correct. This thread has constantly changed my methods of thinking and corrected improper understanding several times. lol


----------



## Jacksprat

will be going to pick up my Drolet Tundra wed next week.  Was wondering if any of you have pictures of how the stove is crated. I have a 150 mile trip with the furnace and want to be sure I have adequate tarping etc for the trip.    thanks


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Unfortunately, no.  Paint started peeling long before I applied the thermometer.
> 
> I do often run the furnace with the damper wide open to get the house up to temp or to keep things simpler for the wife.  Also, to get the wood dry enough in only one year I split it kind of small, and it seems to offgas too much if I load the entire firebox.  So we've done a lot of small (1/3 firebox) fires with damper open.  Still learning, and getting smarter about how to keep it closed more.
> 
> So I might have overfired at times, but I can't imagine by much; smaller loads with a baro damper at -0.05 inches.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for volunteering and showing the picture, haven't seen one yet.
> 
> Any tips for how to attach it?  Could you use existing screw holes, or was it better to drill new holes?
> 
> Are your snap discs still on the back of your furnace?  Mine are on top, and I've wondered if would be a problem to put them (and specifically the wires) so far inside the plenum in a power outage.  I suppose one might argue that mine are also in a small plenum--the steel protective cover.


I could be wrong but keep in mind if surface temp of steel is 600 its likely the middle of the steel panel and the inside is much much hotter of course. The temps we are measuring are just whats coming off the outer surface of the steel so its probably much hotter than we may think? The key I think as Double D explained to me much later in this thread is to keep flu from getting over 800 ever no matter what. Paint will peel at temps well below 800 on the chimney. mine did and its barely hit 800 a few times in the flu. usually is kept at 750 or less on average.


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> So if you had face temps reading 400 and a heat gun saying 600 that means your flu was possible roaring up above 800 internally. not good.



Maybe.  But I think it doesn't work that way, because the heat exchanger cools the gases down before they get to the flue.  For example, the face temps at the top corners of my loading door (above the front firebrick that I added) actually get even hotter (up to 750F) when the damper is closed and a full load is cruising on the secondaries.  But the flue is not hot (I can even touch the single-wall black stove pipe).


----------



## brenndatomu

Jacksprat said:


> will be going to pick up my Drolet Tundra wed next week.  Was wondering if any of you have pictures of how the stove is crated. I have a 150 mile trip with the furnace and want to be sure I have adequate tarping etc for the trip.    thanks


Welcome Jack! It comes in a crate a couple inches wider and longer than the furnace (with the blower attached) IIRC, the sides are covered with plywood and then the whole thing is covered in plastic. IMO, if you have a 10' x 12' (or a little bigger) that should be plenty to cover any shipping damage of the plastic...may wanna take a roll of duct tape too, just in case


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Maybe.  But I think it doesn't work that way, because the heat exchanger cools the gases down before they get to the flue.  For example, the face temps at the top corners of my loading door (above the front firebrick that I added) actually get even hotter (up to 750F) when the damper is closed and a full load is cruising on the secondaries.  But the flue is not hot (I can even touch the single-wall black stove pipe).


 its different on startup. flu gets much hotter first long before box gets warm. I see what you mean though and I am pretty sure the paint peeling thing does happen later not on startup so my guess is your right the flu's not getting all that hot. 600 surface temp just sound damn hot I dunno. mine never really got over 400-500 on the magnetic therm and there within bout 50 deg of accuracy Im pretty confident by now. And my paint blistered anyhow. lol.


----------



## Digger79

Well anyways here's a few pics of the newer model 2015 Tundra's heat exchanger's cut out. You can see the gap is fairly large when cool, notice the smushed upper left corner from the HE expanding into the plate. These pics show the difference in the gap as HE expands and contracts. No wonder the first one cracked being welded plus no room to expand. Course problem as well was the firebox itself which has been corrected w multiple measures, i still say the new high limit is the main butt saver there.

Cold









Warm










Hot


----------



## Digger79

So as you can see now there is room. a cut out with a gap for the HE to expand. If you look close at the pics above you can see they used gasket rope to seal the air from blowing through. The cut the cutout a little bigger, used a covering plate that stops just below the HE door and sealed it with the gasket rope. Did same thing to the damper cut out. Some one mentioned measuring and posting pics of this movement on and old one after it had cracked I think Brenndatomu maybe. Anyways this is close.


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Does anybody know if the tundra qualifies for tax credit in usa?


Apparently not
http://www.drolet.ca/upload/file/Drolet_IRS 2016.pdf


----------



## Digger79

It seems the HE expanding outward was as much or more of a problem as it expanding front to back. It does move some in and out from the cut out into the stove but there is more vertical movement than anything. So just cutting welds on older units may not help completely. Making a cover plate, cutting a space around the HE door, and covering with a plate and high temp gasket to seal crack around HE would be the best fix there.


----------



## Jacksprat

brenndatomu said:


> Welcome Jack! It comes in a crate a couple inches wider and longer than the furnace (with the blower attached) IIRC, the sides are covered with plywood and then the whole thing is covered in plastic. IMO, if you have a 10' x 12' (or a little bigger) that should be plenty to cover any shipping damage of the plastic...may wanna take a roll of duct tape too, just in case


thanks a lot for the info     pick up should be ok   getting it in the house and down the stairs   OOUCH!!


----------



## Jacksprat

Jacksprat said:


> thanks a lot for the info     pick up should be ok   getting it in the house and down the stairs   OOUCH!!


well just got home with my new Drolet Tundra  and while at the store they loaded a new Champion logsplitter on my trailer  will assemble spitter tomorrow and will have to wait on the furnace have friedns coming over for a few days  the Champion logsplitter is a 22 ton with a multi splitter  in the USA it is 20 ton  anyone have one  comments would be appreciated  thanks


----------



## brenndatomu

Jacksprat said:


> well just got home with my new Drolet Tundra and while at the store they loaded a new Champion logsplitter on my trailer


Free splitter with the purchase of a Tundra day? What fortunate timing! 
I have a 23 ton champion (looks the same as a 22T) It works fine...haven't had any major issues with it in the last 3-4 years that I've had it...it does a fine job...but I'm not head over heels in love with it either...rated 1-10, I'd go a 6 or 7...Rural King of Ohio had 'em on a killer black Friday sale when I bought it, so the price was right for what it is I suppose. I wasn't even planning on buying a splitter as I had use of my brothers splitter whenever I wanted it and I was planning on building a flywheel splitter...so I bought the Champion "just 'til I get mine built...then I'll sell it for break even"...yeah right. Haven't had the time or the notion to build a splitter since...I think the Champion has found it's "forever" home!


----------



## Jacksprat

brenndatomu said:


> Free splitter with the purchase of a Tundra day? What fortunate timing!
> I have a 23 ton champion (looks the same as a 22T) It works fine...haven't had any major issues with it in the last 3-4 years that I've had it...it does a fine job...but I'm not head over heels in love with it either...rated 1-10, I'd go a 6 or 7...Rural King of Ohio had 'em on a killer black Friday sale when I bought it, so the price was right for what it is I suppose. I wasn't even planning on buying a splitter as I had use of my brothers splitter whenever I wanted it and I was planning on building a flywheel splitter...so I bought the Champion "just 'til I get mine built...then I'll sell it for break even"...yeah right. Haven't had the time or the notion to build a splitter since...I think the Champion has found it's "forever" home!


just contacted Drolet and they said my Tundra was made in 2015 and has an upgrade for the front of the firebox  anyone know about this upgrade  any thing else I should look for??????   thanks


----------



## jacksnipe

brenndatomu said:


> Welcome Jack! It comes in a crate a couple inches wider and longer than the furnace (with the blower attached) IIRC, the sides are covered with plywood and then the whole thing is covered in plastic. IMO, if you have a 10' x 12' (or a little bigger) that should be plenty to cover any shipping damage of the plastic...may wanna take a roll of duct tape too, just in case


Concerning the shipping crate, is the furnace crate standing up strapped to a pallet or is is laying down on it's side


----------



## brenndatomu

jacksnipe said:


> Concerning the shipping crate, is the furnace crate standing up strapped to a pallet or is is laying down on it's side


It's shipped standing up, in its "normal" position


----------



## jb6l6gc

Just getting around to hooking up my heatmax.  The double wall elbow that was in use on my hotblast doesn't seem to fit the outlet collar properly or secure on the heatmax.  Can someone please post the connector they used on the outlet collar of the tundra to their dsp.


----------



## brenndatomu

I used single wall. This is a common problem on new installs. You would think that the OEMs could all make their flue collars to fit a standard size stove pipe.
I bought a ductwork crimping tool that I have successfully used to further crimp those stove pipes that don't wanna fit right, just go around and lightly re-crimp...you can make it fit like a glove. This could be a little more complicated with doublewall though...sorry, I guess I don't have a great answer for you...anybody else?


----------



## brenndatomu

Just thinking about this a bit more, traffic through here this time of year is kinda low, you may get more ideas posting this question over on the stove forum...those guys use doublewall pipe all the time, this problem surely comes up. Just say you are installing your new Drolet wood burner...that way they don't blow you off as "one of those crazy furnace guys"


----------



## DoubleB

I'm even too cheap to buy a crimping tool, because all I needed to do was use a pair of needle-nosed pliers to grip 1.5" into the end of the pipe, then give it a twist towards the ID of the pipe.  Takes a few minutes to do that around the perimeter of the pipe.  Makes a similar crimp, and can twist it more or less to get the fit you need.  I also used single-wall.


----------



## jb6l6gc

i think its the 6" double wall stove pipe adapter selkirk dsp I need, not 100% sure though
I made another thread in stoves like you said

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...l-stove-pipe-to-6-outlet.154160/#post-2071440


----------



## trx250r87

I have the Selkirk double wall pipe (ordered through Menards) on my Tundra. I also put some rope gasket in the seams for a more air tight fit. 

Eric


----------



## Jacksprat

jb6l6gc said:


> i think its the 6" double wall stove pipe adapter selkirk dsp I need, not 100% sure though
> I made another thread in stoves like you said
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...l-stove-pipe-to-6-outlet.154160/#post-2071440


Hi jb  just wondering did your furnace have the front firebrick upgrade done or do you have to do it


----------



## jb6l6gc

Jacksprat said:


> Hi jb  just wondering did your furnace have the front firebrick upgrade done or do you have to do it


It's has the front firebrick!


----------



## Jacksprat

jb6l6gc said:


> It's has the front firebrick!


they have to send me mine  thanks


----------



## jb6l6gc

Jacksprat said:


> they have to send me mine  thanks


Your talking about the ones on either side of the door correct?


----------



## Jacksprat

jb6l6gc said:


> Your talking about the ones on either side of the door correct?


yes  thanks


----------



## bbauer161

Anyone know if/when they do a sale for these wood furnaces? I'm having my entire chimney rebuilt so that is costing a lot more than expected. So trying to save as much $ as possible on the other purchases.

Also - does anyone have one of these units in a 3000+ sq ft house?


----------



## brenndatomu

bbauer161 said:


> does anyone have one of these units in a 3000+ sq ft house?


@3fordasho  has one. I think most people will be disappointed with a Tundra in that large of a house unless it is air sealed/insulated very well...or if you are truly only looking for supplemental heat. A Drolet Heatpro would be a better model for 3000 ft, Menards had 'em on sale as low as ~$2k this past winter...


----------



## 3fordasho

bbauer161 said:


> Anyone know if/when they do a sale for these wood furnaces? I'm having my entire chimney rebuilt so that is costing a lot more than expected. So trying to save as much $ as possible on the other purchases.
> 
> Also - does anyone have one of these units in a 3000+ sq ft house?



Yes, 3400 sq ft in southern minnesota.  Early 1980's construction with 2x6 walls, spray foam insulation and lots of 1982 casement windows that don't seal like they did in 1982.  I don't push the tundra hard but it can keep up down to about 10F unless there is a strong south wind (no protection from that direction)  When it can't keep up I fire up my second stove which only had to happen a few times this winter.  This winter was pretty mild though..  I am also happy with 68-70f in the house- if you like 75f all winter you better get something bigger.  Propane back up furnace never ran this winter.


----------



## bbauer161

3fordasho said:


> Yes, 3400 sq ft in southern minnesota.  Early 1980's construction with 2x6 walls, spray foam insulation and lots of 1982 casement windows that don't seal like they did in 1982.  I don't push the tundra hard but it can keep up down to ~10F unless there is a strong south wind (no protection from that direction)  When it can't keep up I fire up my second stove which only had to happen a few times this winter.  This winter was pretty mild though..  I am also happy with 68-70f in the house- if you like 75f all winter you better get something bigger.  Propane back up furnace never ran this winter.


 This is good to know. I'm in MD so don't see near the temps that you do. So my guess is I'll be fine with a tundra. We kept it 64-66 this past winter using oil furnace and I want it warmer, but 68-70 is fine and will make my wife happy.


----------



## Digger79

Well I tried to post an old tundra model for sale on here and apparently they moved it to a for sale page. What ever. If anyone is interested in the older unit go check out the for sale page or msg me. steal of a deal.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> Well I tried to post an old tundra model for sale on here and apparently they moved it to a for sale page. What ever. If anyone is interested in the older unit go check out the for sale page or msg me. steal of a deal.


Yeah, can't post anything for sale in here, just in the classified forum. 
Looks like a pretty fair deal Digger, personally I wouldn't be afraid of it. Mine was actually a used "warrantied" unit when I bought it. I planned on welding the cracks up, but they never advanced any more after I drilled the holes and I just just never fooled with it again. I did however fill the holes with stove cement...just because...and it works just fine as is


----------



## Lcback

Digger79 said:


> Well I tried to post an old tundra model for sale on here and apparently they moved it to a for sale page. What ever. If anyone is interested in the older unit go check out the for sale page or msg me. steal of a deal.


For some reason i cannot  post in that thread. 
Where are you located? I'm not confident about the cracks but for the price is sure take a look and think about depending on where you live.


----------



## maple1

Lcback said:


> For some reason i cannot  post in that thread.
> Where are you located? I'm not confident about the cracks but for the price is sure take a look and think about depending on where you live.



That's how the classifieds work.

If you're interested in the item, send the seller a message.

('Start a conversation', I think..)


----------



## Lcback

maple1 said:


> That's how the classifieds work.
> 
> If you're interested in the item, send the seller a message.
> 
> ('Start a conversation', I think..)


Okay thanks. Different than the other forums I'm on.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, can't post anything for sale in here, just in the classified forum.
> Looks like a pretty fair deal Digger, personally I wouldn't be afraid of it. Mine was actually a used "warrantied" unit when I bought it. I planned on welding the cracks up, but they never advanced any more after I drilled the holes and I just just never fooled with it again. I did however fill the holes with stove cement...just because...and it works just fine as is


Yeah I just wanted the guys on here to see it and help pass the word. U and I both know its a great deal. The stove of course is actually fine as is and I feel u could run it like that but I would feel better having cracks welded. I doubt they will go any farther and none are thru letting  any air in. Fire brick did seem to stop them from getting any worse. Better to spend the $100 or so having a welder hit them.. If you don't mind a little ugliness don't even have anything finished just trenched and welded.. Hey Brenndatomu.. U think about taking this thing, fixing it, modifying and re selling maybe? U can weld it up and sell it for $1000-1200 fixed. get the limit switch, cut around HE and paint and make cover plate you made a recent model prob could sell for $1200 solid. just thoughts. I don't weld. If I was willing to wait I am sure I could get $1000 its really new and in good shape other than the minor cracking. Def heats.. lol


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> U think about taking this thing, fixing it, modifying and re selling maybe?


Ahh, no. I buy about one more wood burner and I am likely to be single!  I have way to many projects lined up already...heck my "new" 1400i sits here newly painted but still un-installed...a dump truck that needs a section of frame welded up (and bed installed) and then sold, and two more trucks to be serviced/cleaned and sold. There is concrete to be poured, siding to be installed, insulation that needs put in, and a couple dozen trees that need cut down then processed into the 2020/2021 stacks. There is 2 acres to be mowed and maintained all summer, a roof leak to be found/fixed, numerous different things cluttering up the house/garage need to be craiglisted, and of course gotta make time for mama and Jr. All of a sudden that three weeks of vacation that I have stacked up doesn't sound like near enough!


----------



## jacksnipe

brenndatomu said:


> Ahh, no. I buy about one more wood burner and I am likely to be single!  I have way to many projects lined up already...heck my "new" 1400i sits here newly painted but still un-installed...a dump truck that needs a section of frame welded up (and bed installed) and then sold, and two more trucks to be serviced/cleaned and sold. There is concrete to be poured, siding to be installed, insulation that needs put in, and a couple dozen trees that need cut down then processed into the 2020/2021 stacks. There is 2 acres to be mowed and maintained all summer, a roof leak to be found/fixed, numerous different things cluttering up the house/garage need to be craiglisted, and of course gotta make time for mama and Jr. All of a sudden that three weeks of vacation that I have stacked up doesn't sound like near enough!


 This sounds about what I have on my plate.
 Note: Menards 11 percent rebate on all items starts today, I'm ordering a new Heat Pro this week, I was going to purchase a Heat Max a while back, but waited until now to pull the trigger. This is going into our 36 x 52 uninsulated shop
in NW WI.


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## brenndatomu

Yup, 11% rebate on the Heatpro (well, everything actually) and the Tundra is sale priced and 11% off, $1335(ish)


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, if you have your heart set on getting a Tundra, better get while the gettins good, cause Drolet has started making the Tundra II and no longer shows the original model on their site.
http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/tundra-ii-wood-furnace-df02001

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEV7oALhxXDnwACJAnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTE0OW1ucHFtBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDRkZVSTJDMF8xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1461493377/RO=10/RU=http://www.drolet.ca/en/products/wood/tundra-ii-wood-furnace-df02001/parts/RK=0/RS=yF5Wrh5YF692vQr9iuO5Y5ZOvbc-


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## Lcback

I saw that. No pricing information that I could find yet. I like the looks of the tundra 2 though. 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## brenndatomu

Lcback said:


> I saw that. No pricing information that I could find yet. I like the looks of the tundra 2 though.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


That's how it was when the Heatpro came out...even though there was a Menards SKU it took a bit for them to have pricing at the store, and even longer for it to show up on the website. I suppose they will be ready to roll by fall.
I agree, I think it will be a good unit, lotta bugs have been worked out by now (on the base unit). Too bad the variable speed selection for the blower is 1-4 instead of infinite. I have been very happy with the infinite variable speed blower mod I did back in February. (page 55)


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## Lcback

So far no sale on the regular tundra. But I saw fireplace products or where ever it is. Has the heat pro on sale for 2300 delivered. 
Also saw the spec change from 500-2500 to 1,000-2500. Also a slight up on efficiency. 

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Builderml

Update: I have yet to return the Tundra. I still have it in use seeing how its still in the 50's every night. I have been doing some thinking and talking to the wife over the past couple of months about our future plans. What it comes down to is i may be getting a replacement Tundra and not upgrading to a Max. Reason being we may be selling in the next 3-5 years and we are not sure if we want to invest in the needed upgrades converting to the Max. I figure about $3000-$4000 to upgrade includes Max itself and new duct work. My duct guy should be out in the next week to give me an exact price on new duct work. I was actually pretty pleased with the overall performance from the Tundra with it being undersized. It was a pretty warm winter also.
With the wood furnace and warmer winter i went from 1500 gallons the year before to roughly 650 gallons of heating oil this year. Even if we did upgrade to the Max it should still pay for itself over a 2-3 year period. The Tundra pretty much paid for itself in one year. Once i figure out what i do on my end i'll be sure to post again. Happy Summer folks.


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, I was nosing around on the Drolet site (which they have updated) and I see they have the MSRP listed for the Tundra II now. A $500 increase (more or less) for the Tundra II ($2299)(that is, from the original Tundra price) VS the Heatpro at $2799...or another way to look at it, $500 more buys you the Heatpros 1/3 larger firebox and firepower, hmmm. Of course those are MSRP prices, so we will have to see how things play out price wise once they actually hit the stores.
They have all the tech specs and owners manual listed now too, have a look. https://www.drolet.ca/en/products/furnaces/


----------



## Highbeam

It's too bad they don't list a grams per hour rating. Until they do, they continue to be illegal in WA. A couple of wood boilers have become legal in WA because they not only list a lb/mmBTU but also a GPH. EPA certified isn't good enough.


----------



## DoubleB

FYI Tundra I on sale for $1469 at Menards through August 13.  Don't know how much longer Tundra I will be available until Tundra II takes over, still showing MSRP $2299.


----------



## Builderml

Tundra update: Final verdict for now is the Tundra will be staying and used for another season. With that said i now needed to have the cracks repaired. Some pictures for you guy to see the repairs done. I  noticed the center heat exchanger tube was also cracked once  i took to door off to have the other cracks fixed so while he was here i told him to also hit the center tube. Keep in mind this is only after one season of burning. OK to be fair i may or may not have run it hard. After all how do you run a stove hard? Should it not be built for worst case? I think all the cracks repaired are from the front face being welded to the heat exchanger box. I would like to believe that with the "new" units that are no longer welded you should be ok. Others with the new units should be able to answer that in the coming years. I am not sure who on here just installed an older unit with that front face welded but i strongly advise you to grind those tack welds down otherwise you'll be in the same boat. Yes it may void warranty but its that or deal with a bunch of crap down the road.  So now for some pictures. I don't think with the way he stitched across the cracks it will fail in the same spot. 




	

		
			
		

		
	
  RIGHT SIDE REPAIR



	

		
			
		

		
	
 LEFT SIDE REPAIR



	

		
			
		

		
	
 CENTER HEAT EXCHANGER


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Tundra update: Final verdict for now is the Tundra will be staying and used for another season. With that said i now needed to have the cracks repaired. Some pictures for you guy to see the repairs done. I  noticed the center heat exchanger tube was also cracked once  i took to door off to have the other cracks fixed so while he was here i told him to also hit the center tube. Keep in mind this is only after one season of burning. OK to be fair i may or may not have run it hard. After all how do you run a stove hard? Should it not be built for worst case? I think all the cracks repaired are from the front face being welded to the heat exchanger box. I would like to believe that with the "new" units that are no longer welded you should be ok. Others with the new units should be able to answer that in the coming years. I am not sure who on here just installed an older unit with that front face welded but i strongly advise you to grind those tack welds down otherwise you'll be in the same boat. Yes it may void warranty but its that or deal with a bunch of crap down the road.  So now for some pictures. I don't think with the way he stitched across the cracks it will fail in the same spot.
> View attachment 182954
> View attachment 182955
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RIGHT SIDE REPAIR
> View attachment 182956
> View attachment 182957
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LEFT SIDE REPAIR
> View attachment 182958
> View attachment 182959
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CENTER HEAT EXCHANGER


Wow, welded the heck outta 'er, probably weighs 5 more pounds now! 
Did you remove any of the bodywork to check for other cracks on the HE tubes?
So the plan is to give it another year to decide what you wanna do exactly?


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Wow, welded the heck outta 'er, probably weighs 5 more pounds now!
> Did you remove any of the bodywork to check for other cracks on the HE tubes?
> So the plan is to give it another year to decide what you wanna do exactly?


I didn't take any panels off yet to look any further.....I'm kinda scared.... Fabricator didn't give me much warning before he came over so i had him fix what i knew of. Luckly he only lives about 5 minutes away. You can tell by his welds he doesn't mess around. I think i may just take things apart here some more next week.
Receiving the full refund on the Tundra i decided to patch it together and see how long she last. I told the fabricator i might need him back every spring to put more bandages on. I think with the front no longer being connected she may do pretty well now.
All in all last year i was really pleased with what the Tundra could do.

I am not a welder but i wonder if i should have had him run a complete bead around all 3 heat exchanger tubes from the inside. Insurance policy kinda. What do you guys think? I may talk to him about that.


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## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> What do you guys think?



For me, this falls into if it ain't broke, I wouldn't fix it.  I contemplated having my cracks welded after the 1st winter, but I didn't.  They didn't creep further the 2nd winter, so I still haven't had them welded.  Might not ever if they don't cause perceptible problems or a foreseeable risk of problems.  

That's just me.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> What do you guys think


I agree with DB, if it aint broke don't fix it. Sometimes welding things can cause a whole new set of problems...
I too have not had the cracks on the front grow any further after drilling the root of the crack...('bout an 1/8" hole) then I sealed the crack and hole with furnace cement...working great so far.


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## Builderml

I wish I would have drilled the cracks before the one on the right side got big. I wasn't taking a chance before the warranty was resolved. Hind site now I would have.
I am not sure if I listed the end result of my warranty claim. I was in the end issued a full refund of my purchase price. When warranty was first started I was asked to return the unit but after I finished out the season with it I was only asked to return the label. Which is why unit is still in operation for me.


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## 3fordasho

Menards is running a $300 rebate on the regular Tundra starting tomorrow- puts it at $1169 after rebate.


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## Builderml

I wonder if they have different prices in diffferent areas? On website I get $1689 -$300 rebate final price $1389.


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## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> Menards is running a $300 rebate on the regular Tundra starting tomorrow- puts it at $1169 after rebate.





Builderml said:


> I wonder if they have different prices in diffferent areas? On website I get $1689 -$300 rebate final price $1389.


Good find 3fordasho, I just looked at this the other day and no sale (was $1689, which is still down from the "regular price" of $1759 they had been for years before) but now I just looked again and yup, on sale, plus rebate, $1169 final price. wow


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## Builderml

Sure enough looking this morning the price is $1169. Heck if I know what happened. At that price it's worth taking a gamble on it.

Side note: been doing some firewood and was given some large round hickory 36"-40", wtf, now I know why it was given to me. Who in there right mind would want to work with this stuff. Tried just splitting like any other piece loading it on splitter with tractor. Forget about it, I think splitter had some choice words for me. In the end pieces needed to be cut in halves and and quarters with the saw before splitting. Can't say I'll miss this stuff when it's done


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Sure enough looking this morning the price is $1169. Heck if I know what happened. At that price it's worth taking a gamble on it.
> 
> Side note: been doing some firewood and was given some large round hickory 36"-40", wtf, now I know why it was given to me. Who in there right mind would want to work with this stuff. Tried just splitting like any other piece loading it on splitter with tractor. Forget about it, I think splitter had some choice words for me. In the end pieces needed to be cut in halves and and quarters with the saw before splitting. Can't say I'll miss this stuff when it's done
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 183238
> View attachment 183239


But it is so worth the trouble IMO, Hickory is my number one favorite firewood for the cold days.
That is where a horizontal/vertical splitter comes in handy...bust those bigguns up on the ground. 
With no H/V splitter available, I'd lay the round on its side, cut a lengthwise kerf 3" deep, drive a wedge in there, it'll usually pop right open. Rinse and repeat until you have manageable pieces.

I agree on the Tundra gamble...considering the price increase on the TII, makes it almost double this price...


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## Buzz Saw

brenndatomu said:


> makes it almost double this price...



Gotta pay for all the free ones they gave away the past few years.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


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## brenndatomu

Buzz Saw said:


> Gotta pay for all the free ones they gave away the past few years.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Yeah, it would be interesting to know how many they actually warrantied.
I don't think the TII is overpriced considering the added electronics and that it comes with a plenum. It will be interesting to see Menards price on TII...


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## Lcback

I am still interested in watching the prices. I ended up changing my mind and going with a totally different furnace. But I'll still be watching I just didn't feel the tundra 1 would be able to heat my house at 250psqft. And not worry about over firing it

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk
This price at $1300 or what ever is quite a bargain. I hope most of the people looking at the green monsters at tractor supply this year hear about the drolet on sale.


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## crewchief264

So I have been following this thread and read just about all 62 pages... That being said I have been using a Hotblast 1500 that I modified after the first fire I put in it... I was used to my regency insert which is really efficient and the hot blast went through wood like a California Pyro sets wild fires.....

Also for all you cracked guys, I only have a Lincoln SP135 plus MIG and I had no problems welding up my Hotblast after drilling a hole through the front, and I also welded steel into the sides of the firebox to support extra fire brick. That was 3 years ago and its still going strong. I even welded some left over angle iron had on the door for even more firebrick. And not Problems. So I wouldn't be a bit worried about cleaning up those cracks stop drilling them and laying some weld in there!

Edit the price tag I posted is jacked up.. the price is only $1169.00

That said thanks to brenndatomu for the information on this thread and also the heads up on the Tundra Sale. I purchased the Tundra yesterday.... Serial Number 734. It looks to have had the air intake modification done.. The center holes were larger than the two side holes and it didn't have a the after thought clip on plate installed. It didn't have the firebrick for the front... Anyways they are ordering one for me and it will be a few weeks before it is in....So a $300 rebate and another 2% rebate with using my Menards card and getting rid of about $150 in menards rebates.... I am excited about buying the rest of the toys to make this new tundra run like my regency insert but with a larger heating capacity....


----------



## Builderml

Crewchief, Tundra is hard to pass up at that price. The only question i have is did you have the option of having them order a new one with all the revisions? I believe what is going to save the new ones from cracking is the fact that the front face and heat exchanger are no longer welded together on new models. Also the firebrick they end up sending for the front face is junk. Its soft stuff and gets beat up bad loading and moving the wood around. Cutting an angle iron to cover the edge of the firebrick would be best. Mine were finished by seasons end. The top baffle cracked down the middle on mine and i am going to us that to make the firebricks for the front face this year. The guys on here are first class when it comes to helping someone out so ask away if you have any questions.


----------



## Builderml

I can't tell looking at your first picture...Does the bottom of the heat exchanger have tack welds to the front face?


----------



## brenndatomu

crewchief264 said:


> I purchased the Tundra yesterday.... Serial Number 734


You have it already or they had to order one for you...I'm not sure I follow you? Was it a display model? The display model at out local Menards has been there for 2-3 years. What is the build date?


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## DoubleB

Congrats!  That's a pretty good deal.

I'm confused too.  Serial No 734 lines up to about June 2014.  My guess is you bought the display unit, and they agreed to ship the front firebrick which should arrive in a few weeks.  

Either way, it sounds from your history that you will get the Tundra to work just fine even if something down the road needs fixing on your $1100 investment.  

And welcome to hearth.com!


----------



## crewchief264

Builderml said:


> Crewchief, Tundra is hard to pass up at that price. The only question i have is did you have the option of having them order a new one with all the revisions? I believe what is going to save the new ones from cracking is the fact that the front face and heat exchanger are no longer welded together on new models. Also the firebrick they end up sending for the front face is junk. Its soft stuff and gets beat up bad loading and moving the wood around. Cutting an angle iron to cover the edge of the firebrick would be best. Mine were finished by seasons end. The top baffle cracked down the middle on mine and i am going to us that to make the firebricks for the front face this year. The guys on here are first class when it comes to helping someone out so ask away if you have any questions.



Hey builderml, Menards couldn't even order the Tundra on their system when I baught it. They said they would have to contact the vendor. Anyhow I baught it at that price... and the whole time I was thinking.....wouldn't it be nice if they shipped a Tundra 2! So to answer your question. Yes they are ordering one in. And before I sign for it, you better believe it will have the new intake system and fire brick.. Can you post pics of what to look for in the redesigned welding work verse the old? Thanks


----------



## brenndatomu

crewchief264 said:


> Yes they are ordering one in.


So how do you already know the serial #?


crewchief264 said:


> Can you post pics of what to look for in the redesigned welding work verse the old?


@Digger79  post #1491 on page 60 shows the way they do it on the newest ones (T1). The older ones had some welds in those areas. Basically if the heat exchanger cleanout box is _not_ welded to the front face of what makes up the firebox, then you are good to go (I'm assuming the TIIs will be coming the same way)

But I'm not so sure you aren't better off with a older one, you don't seem like you are gonna be freaked out if it cracks (me either, heck, I bought it that way) and at that point you can turn it in for warranty, and then go weld it up and enjoy your "free" Tundra


----------



## crewchief264

brenndatomu said:


> You have it already or they had to order one for you...I'm not sure I follow you? Was it a display model? The display model at out local Menards has been there for 2-3 years. What is the build date?




The unit at menards is a few years old and I don't think that they will sell it. They stated that the Tundra was special order and it would take a couple weeks to come in but they were going to have to talk to the vendor and then get back with me on the details..... Who knows this could really work out well..... Last time I had a "box" store debacle I negotiated 2000 sq feet of hard wood finished flooring for half price........So I am waiting.... And looking forward to someone buying my Hotblast 1500... Its not a bad unit, and the modifications I have made has made it twice as good...... but I think that I can make the Tundra even better! Does that make sense? I am excited about adding some electronics into the firebox set up! 

Maybe I'll dial in a few degrees of extra timing at the top end and fatten the fuel curve up and then change the injector pulse width for a sweet two step Ignition start up......... I mean I do have a free flowing exhaust system on this baby!


----------



## crewchief264

DoubleB said:


> Congrats!  That's a pretty good deal.
> 
> I'm confused too.  Serial No 734 lines up to about June 2014.  My guess is you bought the display unit, and they agreed to ship the front firebrick which should arrive in a few weeks.
> 
> Either way, it sounds from your history that you will get the Tundra to work just fine even if something down the road needs fixing on your $1100 investment.
> 
> And welcome to hearth.com!




Didn't buy the display unit.. they are ordering one in. I'll do a thorough inspection of it before taking delivery... any tips are welcome.. I am interested on the new fire box welding situations and also where is the build date and serial number location on the actual unit located? Thanks Guys.....


----------



## jb6l6gc

crewchief264 said:


> Didn't buy the display unit.. they are ordering one in. I'll do a thorough inspection of it before taking delivery... any tips are welcome.. I am interested on the new fire box welding situations and also where is the build date and serial number location on the actual unit located? Thanks Guys.....


Build date and serial number can be found on the fan casing on the back.  Mine was installed 4monthes ago and I still have yet to break it in. It's been a stupid hot summer!


----------



## Builderml

crewchief264 said:


> Can you post pics of what to look for in the redesigned welding work verse the old? Thanks


Here are a couple pictures for you. I took one zoomed in and out so you are clear where to look. You can see the tack welds in the zoomed in picture at the tip of the red arrow is clearly broken. I didn't count exactly how many tack welds they have but i think about 6-8 along that line. To my understanding the newest models no longer have those tack welds allowing the two pieces of metal to move independently thus reducing cracking potential. Now i believe they are using some type of rope packing for that area. I guess you can look at it a couple ways. Take an older unit if it cracks you should get a refund from warranty or wait for the newest model. If you do get a newer model please keep us posted with how your making out with it.


----------



## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> Build date and serial number can be found on the fan casing on the back.  Mine was installed 4monthes ago and I still have yet to break it in. It's been a stupid hot summer!



In regards to "breaking in" I strongly advise you to light your first fire outside to burn everything off. Keep that nasty smell out of your house. Keep it going for a couple hours. Doesn't need to be anything crazy just getting it heated up and keeping it that way for some time will really save you a world of stink later. Here is a picture of when i fired mine up outside. Also i had a fair amount of water coming off the stack from drying out the firebricks. The top of the fan box was covered with water.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Builderml said:


> In regards to "breaking in" I strongly advise you to light your first fire outside to burn everything off. Keep that nasty smell out of your house. Keep it going for a couple hours. Doesn't need to be anything crazy just getting it heated up and keeping it that way for some time will really save you a world of stink later. Here is a picture of when i fired mine up outside. Also i had a fair amount of water coming off the stack from drying out the firebricks. The top of the fan box was covered with water.
> View attachment 183466


Too late already installed. Already done a break in before on my upstairs unit when it was installed.  Wasn't too bad. I'll just open windows


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## DoubleB

crewchief264 said:


> Didn't buy the display unit.. they are ordering one in.



Even better, you'll have an updated unit, it just won't be serial number 734 that's all.


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## 3fordasho

Local Menards has a display unit with a sign stating that it can be purchased.  It's the same unit that's been on display since they came to market.  Don't think I'd be interested in a early unit unless it was really cheap, there have been too many updates that are necessary.


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## brenndatomu

I just noticed that Tundra 1 is showing "discontinued" at all Ohio Menards and that the Drolet site now has a Menards SKU # showing for the Tundra II...SKU 638-1422.
All but one of the Ohio Menards are showing1 unit in stock though...I'm sure it is the dusty ole display unit.


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## brenndatomu

Talked to the heating guy at Menards today. He said they are supposed to have Tundra II in stock at their main warehouse in the next few days. I asked if he had pricing info yet, he said $1999, so if you caught one on a 11% sale that would put you back in the range of their regular price of a T1, not too bad IMO


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## 3fordasho

Menards closing out the Tundra's, $1034 after various rebates.  Appears that only early serial number display units are available - though I didn't actually confirm that.


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## jb6l6gc

does anyone have any info on wiring in a thermostat? What type of thermostat and how to wire in? I find the price on the actual drolet one to be quite high considering it looks like just a very basic digital thermostat.
I have an existing thermostat for my electric forced air furnace and air conditioner, does it need to interlock with that somehow.
Any helpfull info on this would be appreciated. Starting to cool down this week, I plan to do the break in fires this weekend and finally get the old hotblast outta the basement.


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## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> does anyone have any info on wiring in a thermostat? What type of thermostat and how to wire in? I find the price on the actual drolet one to be quite high considering it looks like just a very basic digital thermostat.
> I have an existing thermostat for my electric forced air furnace and air conditioner, does it need to interlock with that somehow.
> Any helpfull info on this would be appreciated. Starting to cool down this week, I plan to do the break in fires this weekend and finally get the old hotblast outta the basement.


Wiring a tstat to a Tundra is pretty easy, 2 wires, just follow the directions that come with the tstat. A basic stat like a FocusPro 5000 will do fine...or a 6000 gets you a programmable one. The 5000 can be had for $20 or less on fleabay...a bit more for the 6000, unless you want a fancy wifi one or something...gotta pay for that!
It doesn't need to hook to your electric furnace/AC at all unless you are tying the the two systems together and the electric heat or AC could kick on while the Tundra is still hot. A simple relay that opens the tstat circuit for the electric heat/AC whenever the Tundra blower is being called to run would solve that issue...and you would want backdraft dampers in the ductwork too...


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## jb6l6gc

Ya still working on all that. Used to just use a piece of ply wood in filter slot and make sure the other thermostat was off when I ran the hotblast.


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## DoubleB

I'd get comfy running the Tundra without a thermostat first to see how it goes, then worry later about whether you want to add a tstat.  SBI blamed the cracking problems on people over-firing their furnace, yet that is exactly what you can get with a thermostat.  Further, once I added a temp snap disc to open the damper once down to coals, I find that works much better than a tstat.  I spent the time and money and extra hole in the wall to run a new tstat to my Tundra before I ever fired it, and now I wish I hadn't.

Your situation may be different, maybe a tstat is right for you, but it can't hurt to run without one for a few weeks.


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## 3fordasho

Same here, hooked up a thermostat but never use it.  Because of the size of my house (3400 sq ft) the thermostat would hold the damper open for hours on end.  Good way to crack the crack the firebox and burn a lot of wood.  A furnace like the Tundra burns most efficiently with the damper closed and good secondary action.  Instead of the thermostat I (like others) have added additional damper controls that are well documented in this thread.



DoubleB said:


> I'd get comfy running the Tundra without a thermostat first to see how it goes, then worry later about whether you want to add a tstat.  SBI blamed the cracking problems on people over-firing their furnace, yet that is exactly what you can get with a thermostat.  Further, once I added a temp snap disc to open the damper once down to coals, I find that works much better than a tstat.  I spent the time and money and extra hole in the wall to run a new tstat to my Tundra before I ever fired it, and now I wish I hadn't.
> 
> Your situation may be different, maybe a tstat is right for you, but it can't hurt to run without one for a few weeks.


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## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> does anyone have any info on wiring in a thermostat? What type of thermostat and how to wire in? I find the price on the actual drolet one to be quite high considering it looks like just a very basic digital thermostat.
> I have an existing thermostat for my electric forced air furnace and air conditioner, does it need to interlock with that somehow.
> Any helpfull info on this would be appreciated. Starting to cool down this week, I plan to do the break in fires this weekend and finally get the old hotblast outta the basement.


Be careful operating with that thermostat alone. Specially if you have the Tundra 1.  Be sure you monitor your flu temps and keep them under 7-800 deg F. Many of us on here have found these stove we feel actually operate best with controls over how the fire burns rather than using a heat call device or a thermostat. I think the principle is you get more heat out of your wood thus more heat in the house when burns are controlled and optimal for complete combustion.


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## Jacksprat

Digger79 said:


> Be careful operating with that thermostat alone. Specially if you have the Tundra 1.  Be sure you monitor your flu temps and keep them under 7-800 deg F. Many of us on here have found these stove we feel actually operate best with controls over how the fire burns rather than using a heat call device or a thermostat. I think the principle is you get more heat out of your wood thus more heat in the house when burns are controlled and optimal for complete combustion.


had my first burn with my new Drolet Tundra and had a couple of observations   hard to get flue temps over 300F   and wish there was a way to keep the damper about half open rather than off/on  Letting it burn today also , that way the furnace and fire bricks should has lost any moisture they had and will get it set up for the upcoming winter (warm here for the next 14 days so dont need the furnace on)  thanks


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## brenndatomu

Jacksprat said:


> hard to get flue temps over 300F


External pipe temp? If so that equals ~600* (F) internal, which is plenty.


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## maple1

Uh, yeah, how & with what are you measuring those temps?


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## Digger79

maple1 said:


> Uh, yeah, how & with what are you measuring those temps?


U need an probe 4-5" connected to a thermometer. Most accurate thing i found an is quick an easy is an electricians multimeter that measures temps as well an comes with a probe for such use. Goes up to 1500 deg. Be sure you insulate the plastic on the probe w rock wool to keep it from melting! They do make probes that connect to temp controlers but getting a good one can be an issue. Yes u are likely measuring the surface an 300 is usually 6-800. Anything over 350 external is danger zone internal.


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## Jacksprat

Digger79 said:


> U need an probe 4-5" connected to a thermometer. Most accurate thing i found an is quick an easy is an electricians multimeter that measures temps as well an comes with a probe for such use. Goes up to 1500 deg. Be sure you insulate the plastic on the probe w rock wool to keep it from melting! They do make probes that connect to temp controlers but getting a good one can be an issue. Yes u are likely measuring the surface an 300 is usually 6-800. Anything over 350 external is danger zone internal.


the temperature was measured approx 12 inch from the chimney exit of flu pipe   is it harder to maintain flue temp with warm outside air    used to have a Napoleon 1400 connected to this chimney and with the same gauge it would read 450F and with the Tundra I work hard to get it to 250F


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## maple1

Jacksprat said:


> the temperature was measured approx 12 inch from the chimney exit of flu pipe   is it harder to maintain flue temp with warm outside air    used to have a Napoleon 1400 connected to this chimney and with the same gauge it would read 450F and with the Tundra I work hard to get it to 250F


Measured with what?

And a Tundra isn't a Napoleon.


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## Jacksprat

maple1 said:


> Measured with what?
> 
> And a Tundra isn't a Napoleon.


temp was measure with an Imperial Burn Indicator Gauge


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## maple1

So that's a magnetic guage? I've got one on my pipe, beside my probe thermometer. Mine might even be an Imperial too. They should not be relied on.


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## brenndatomu

Jacksprat said:


> used to have a Napoleon 1400 connected to this chimney and with the same gauge it would read 450F and with the Tundra I work hard to get it to 250F


Does a Napoleon 1400 have a good sized heat exchanger like the Tundra? 
Tundra does tend to run lower exhaust temps unlike many of the smoke dragons that Tundras are replacing...that's a good thing...a sign of efficiency


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## Jacksprat

brenndatomu said:


> Does a Napoleon 1400 have a good sized heat exchanger like the Tundra?
> Tundra does tend to run lower exhaust temps unlike many of the smoke dragons that Tundras are replacing...that's a good thing...a sign of efficiency


NO SMALL EXCHANGER AND SMALLER FAN   have had it for 20 years  I think it worked as good last year as it did the first year but as we get older our bodies like 72 more than 68  heated 1800 sq ft raised ranch style home with a finished basement real well until the temp got below -25F  then it was time to turn on the electric furnace.


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## maple1

Just for some reference, I lit my boiler around noon  & just came back from putting some more wood in. The Imperial guage said 100c, and the probe right beside it said 200c. That's 210f vs 390f. That was with a recovering fire. Very fuzzy memory makes me think mid burn would be more like 150c/300f vs 250c/480f. 

I would hate to think what my flu temp really was if the Imperial said 450f.


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## jb6l6gc

hey guys break in burns on my unit are going well! However I have one question, on my first couple burns I seem to be getting a bit of condensation dripping from one of the joints in my brand new excel double wall chimney pipe. They were installed by a pro and are all going in the right direction, first thing i checked.  Only seems to happen when shes cruising  for a while and the secondaries are going. At first I thought this was maybe due to all the moisture in the firebrick, but now im starting to wonder. Should I be running this thing on high and letting the high limit close her down? Any help appreciated.


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## laynes69

What's the moisture content of the wood?


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## Jacksprat

jb6l6gc said:


> hey guys break in burns on my unit are going well! However I have one question, on my first couple burns I seem to be getting a bit of condensation dripping from one of the joints in my brand new excel double wall chimney pipe. They were installed by a pro and are all going in the right direction, first thing i checked.  Only seems to happen when shes cruising  for a while and the secondaries are going. At first I thought this was maybe due to all the moisture in the firebrick, but now im starting to wonder. Should I be running this thing on high and letting the high limit close her down? Any help appreciated.


I had the same situation on my first burn thought either high water content in wood or a fair amount of moisture in the fire brick liner???


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## Jacksprat

jb6l6gc said:


> hey guys break in burns on my unit are going well! However I have one question, on my first couple burns I seem to be getting a bit of condensation dripping from one of the joints in my brand new excel double wall chimney pipe. They were installed by a pro and are all going in the right direction, first thing i checked.  Only seems to happen when shes cruising  for a while and the secondaries are going. At first I thought this was maybe due to all the moisture in the firebrick, but now im starting to wonder. Should I be running this thing on high and letting the high limit close her down? Any help appreciated.


jb   what was your chimney temperature when this was happening


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## maple1

When asking about or comparing chimney/flue/pipe temps, you would also need to take into consideration exactly with what, how & where they are being measured. Just comparing two numbers is an apples/oranges exercise.

Also curious though what others are seeing for temps - along with the what/how/where of them. 

Course that could have been posted already in this thread, and it would be pretty hard to find - this is quite the thread.


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## jb6l6gc

Jacksprat said:


> jb   what was your chimney temperature when this was happening


not sure i dont have a flue thermometer just a magnetic one I have on the heat exchanger door. it was reading just over 300f.


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## jb6l6gc

laynes69 said:


> What's the moisture content of the wood?


wood was reading just under 20% may have to check some from my other stacks


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## jb6l6gc




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## crewchief264

Builderml said:


> Crewchief, Tundra is hard to pass up at that price. The only question i have is did you have the option of having them order a new one with all the revisions? I believe what is going to save the new ones from cracking is the fact that the front face and heat exchanger are no longer welded together on new models. Also the firebrick they end up sending for the front face is junk. Its soft stuff and gets beat up bad loading and moving the wood around. Cutting an angle iron to cover the edge of the firebrick would be best. Mine were finished by seasons end. The top baffle cracked down the middle on mine and i am going to us that to make the firebricks for the front face this year. The guys on here are first class when it comes to helping someone out so ask away if you have any questions.




Hey Menards has the Tundra even cheaper right now..... And they just price matched me on the one I ordered and gave me 74.99 in in store 
	

		
			
		

		
	





	

		
			
		

		
	
 credit....


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## Builderml

Great Buy Crewchief


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## Builderml

jb6l6gc said:


> hey guys break in burns on my unit are going well! However I have one question, on my first couple burns I seem to be getting a bit of condensation dripping from one of the joints in my brand new excel double wall chimney pipe. They were installed by a pro and are all going in the right direction, first thing i checked.  Only seems to happen when shes cruising  for a while and the secondaries are going. At first I thought this was maybe due to all the moisture in the firebrick, but now im starting to wonder. Should I be running this thing on high and letting the high limit close her down? Any help appreciated.


Until you've had a few long good fires in it don't worry about the moisture. During my first few fires i had a fair amount of moisture coming out the stack.(dripping)


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## brenndatomu

crewchief264 said:


> Hey Menards has the Tundra even cheaper right now..... And they just price matched me on the one I ordered and gave me 74.99 in in store
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 185584
> 
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> credit....


Thief!


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## jb6l6gc

Builderml said:


> Until you've had a few long good fires in it don't worry about the moisture. During my first few fires i had a fair amount of moisture coming out the stack.(dripping)


10-4 I thought so as the second fire it seemed like allot less so hopefully the trend continues


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## crewchief264

Ok, Drolett experts: I need some advice and information. I took the bite on the Meanrds "Sale" knowing that they are only clearing old stock to make way for the new $1999.00 Tundra II. The store told me in Sept they would order one in. Well its now October and its not ordered. and now discontinued........ so I am getting some good old run around from the store... Good news is I am paid up and rebate is sent in.....That said I wanted to make sure I got a Tundra I (old model) with the new firebrick, the air inlet mod plate, and the new constructed front face plate. (someone stated they changed how they welded the front of the box together?) Correct me if I am wrong on any of this. Needless to say my local Menards has a Tundra S/N 7XX something it has the secondary air  inlet mod but no firebrick for the front..I would like any advice possible. I am possibly taking a tracking a Tundra I and want to minimize my cracking issues.. (although I can and will weld the heck out of this thing if it does crack) I am not scared of cutting a hole through the front of my furnace and welding a tube into it hence my sold Hotblast 1500 with secondary burn.... I appreciate any advice. Thanks Anyhow Menards can order the new Tundra II for $1999.00..... I am hoping as a dissatisfied customer if this whole Tundra I thing doesn't work out.. maybe the Tundra II for Tundra I price will.... Not holding onto that happening!! LOL


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## DoubleB

If I could have gotten a Tundra for <$1000, I wouldn't have cared what kind they actually send me, as long as it comes soon.  

If you receive a Tundra 1, then either they'll send you firebrick for the front, or worst case cut some firebrick (I have a post on one of these pages with dimensions for firebrick, maybe around Aug 2015).  

Then, I'd add overtemp control that shuts the damper if things get too hot.  That's been described a lot in these pages.  In one version, people have inserted a temp probe into the flue and used a controller to cut out the damper.  In another version, I used a snap disc on the flue for the same purpose.

Between the firebrick and overtemp control, I would hope your chances of cracking are much less.  I have no way of knowing for sure, but even if you get cracking, then you could possibly get your money back, and enjoy your welding project.  (FWIW, I haven't welded my cracks, and they didn't grow in my second winter with the firebrick and overtemp control.)


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## brenndatomu

crewchief264 said:


> my local Menards has a Tundra S/N 7XX something it has the secondary air inlet mod but no firebrick for the front..I would like any advice possible


If they can't get order another one then it sounds like that one is gonna be your machine. Wouldn't bother me any at that price. Like @DoubleB  said, crack is no big deal, it just relieves the stress!  And yes, Drolet will send you any updates it needs for free.
Mine was cracked when I got it, and it took a while but the crack did grow a bit until I drilled the root of the crack...hasn't moved since even with no welding. I initially planned on welding it but then decided to test how well just drilling it would work, just so I could report this for anyone else that has no access to a welder. I just drilled it and then worked some furnace cement into the crack and the hole, so far so good.
Like you said, no need to fear welding a crack on a steel stove, as long as the metal hasn't been burnt into a crisp, then it can be cut, welded, reworked many times using proper techniques.


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## crewchief264

So heres the update on buying the now discontinued Tundra I. Drolet is no longer making the Tundra I and it cannot be ordered. However the Tundra II can be ordered and Menards has it $1999.00. That said they offered to sell me a Tundra II for 10% off. However the $300 rebate would not apply. So I passed on the Tundra II and took the Tundra I (it was $1099.00 out the door.) Of course you have the $300.00 rebate  to use in store. I am looking forward to putting the electronics on this and getting some fires going.... tested my, maple, elm, Chinese elm, white oak, and ash wood and its all seasoned to about 11-14% moisture (some has seasoned for 2 years and the Chinese elm was just split last weekend but was dead fall...) Looks like its gonna be good winter. I hope no-one around here notices how cheap you can get the Tundra I.... otherwise I'll never sell my Hotblast!


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## jb6l6gc

crewchief264 said:


> So heres the update on buying the now discontinued Tundra I. Drolet is no longer making the Tundra I and it cannot be ordered. However the Tundra II can be ordered and Menards has it $1999.00. That said they offered to sell me a Tundra II for 10% off. However the $300 rebate would not apply. So I passed on the Tundra II and took the Tundra I (it was $1099.00 out the door.) Of course you have the $300.00 rebate  to use in store. I am looking forward to putting the electronics on this and getting some fires going.... tested my, maple, elm, Chinese elm, white oak, and ash wood and its all seasoned to about 11-14% moisture (some has seasoned for 2 years and the Chinese elm was just split last weekend but was dead fall...) Looks like its gonna be good winter. I hope no-one around here notices how cheap you can get the Tundra I.... otherwise I'll never sell my Hotblast!


Lol just sold my hotblast for $500 yesterday


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## Guy988G

Good morning all, New here obviously. If been reading thru this thread and I must say you all seem to have these things figured out. I have the heatmax purchased in 2014.it heats well but it's quite a headache..or,i havnt figured out everything you all have. I know these are picky about wood but most everything I burn is dead elm or ash that has been dead for awhile. I also think I noticed that not one of you run just the grates on the blower box. Is their a specific reason none of you do? I am installing a cold air return this year.....or what I can afford of one anyhow. But just curious as to everyone else's reasoning. Hope everyone enjoys their day sorry for such a long first post but I'll probably ask a lot more questions as my only advice on my install was looking at it and thinking yeah that should work.


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## DoubleB

Welcome to Hearth, Guy!

Trees that have been dead for a while are usually less wet than an alive tree, but they still might have more water in them than the Heatmax should have.  I got a cheap moisture meter for $10, and you might find something similar to be helpful.  Take a few pieces of firewood, split them in half, and measure the moisture content on a fresh inside face that you just split.  Preferably, in future years, it's important to let your firewood dry for 2 or 3 years to make sure it's dry enough (to the point you don't even need to check with a moisture meter).  Lots of help about these things in the Wood Shed forum on this site.

One of the problems with the grates on the blower box is that there is no air filter.  As a result, all kinds of lint and dust build up over time inside the heat exchanger of your furnace, which can reduce heat transfer.  Also, I've heard that the blower motor does not like all of those contaminants.  Not to mention the blower itself--look at the blades of a window box fan accumulate dust.  The same thing can happen to the blower, reducing its ability to push air, causing vibrations, and other problems.  I don't know all the details, just that keeping dust out is a good thing.

Many of us got our Tundra from Menards, who included a filter kit for free (to replace the grates).  Did you get a filter kit?  If not, it shouldn't be too hard to make one up, at least when you add the return ducting.


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## Guy988G

Hello,thanks for the response. I did not get a filter kit with mine. Purchased at family farm and home did not include one. Iv had filters on both sides of the box held in place.
Also I did some more reading in this thread last night I see a lot of people have diffrent systems to shut the stove down. Is that something I should be concerned about as all I'm running is the factory setup.?

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## Guy988G

And thank you doubleb it's nice to be here a lot of good info here

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## brenndatomu

Guy988G said:


> I have the heatmax purchased in 2014.it heats well but it's quite a headache..or,i havnt figured out everything you all have.


Welcome @Guy988G , what exactly is a headache with it?
As far as the blower box, mine came with the filter kit too, I wouldn't want to run without a filter for a couple reasons.
1. No need to circulate more dust...plus then it builds up in your ducts, etc.
2. Static pressure would be too low (at least with my system) and the blower would cycle way too much and drive me nutty (er)


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## Guy988G

Well one big whine I have about it is no matter what I do I always seem to get smoke if I open the door even,if it's a roaring fire. I'm certain I have plenty of draft even though I do need to get a meter. And upon more reading it seems they run better if ya don't mess with them at all. I think,alot of my issues are honestly that my advice of burning wood comes from old,timers who swear by their old school stoves, so I try doing things as they tell me and it just dosnt work,with these new ones. I now know the wood I have been using isn't optimal either but I still seem to have a lot of smoke because the damper will open for awhile but then shut shortly after. My secondaries will only burn for maybe five minutes and then those go out and it only smolders making lots of smoke. Could all of that be because of to wet of wood also?

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## brenndatomu

For the most part once you load, the door shouldn't normally need to be opened again until things are burnt down to at least coals, no smoke then.


Guy988G said:


> I now know the wood I have been using isn't optimal either but I still seem to have a lot of smoke because the damper will open for awhile but then shut shortly after. My secondaries will only burn for maybe five minutes and then those go out and it only smolders making lots of smoke. Could all of that be because of to wet of wood also?


That's exactly what it is. That and if your draft is low that will contribute too. Whats your chimney setup like, size, height, type, # of 90* bends, etc? Could be that the damper wasn't open long enough to char the wood and get the firebox up to operating temp...it takes ~1200* to light off the secondary burn. Fine line between enough, and too much...thats why I like having the timer/temp controller, kinda keeps things in the sweet spot.


Guy988G said:


> I'm certain I have plenty of draft even though I do need to get a meter


Look in the for sale section here...


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## Guy988G

Alright well theirs that then. As for the chimney, it is the six inch ss insulated duravent. I'm not exact on the height at this second I can check when I get home in the morning, but it comes,out of my walk out basement then up to the peak. Their is a 90 at stove and outside at the clean out and a 45 I think between the two. And I have a manual damper in it as well that I have in the past kept 3/4 open.

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## DoubleB

I'm pretty sure the owner's manual says no more than two 90-degrees.  Your extra 45-deg damper is more restriction than Drolet allows.  And the manual damper is definitely not per the owner's manual.

That said, if your particular setup is particularly lucky, you might get by with the extra 45 and the manual damper and have enough draft, for example with an internal chimney (which you don't have) and a really tall chimney (which we don't know yet).  I'd try to make sure you meet manufacturer's requirements before assuming there is a different problem.  The owner's manual also calls for a barometric damper (discussed in previous pages of this thread), which would probably help you out.

Do you clean out your stove pipe between the furnace and the exterior cleanout?  If not, it only takes a bit of buildup in that section to choke down your draft.


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## Guy988G

Yes that section does get cleaned out often. As far as eliminating the 45 I'm not sure how I could do that without getting real creative

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## DoubleB

Depending upon your setup you might be able to reduce the angle of the 90-elbow at your stove.

Maybe measure draft first with your current setup to see what you have.


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## Guy988G

Yeah that was my thought as well check draft then go from their. I know I don't have anywhere near the chimney   height as Some of the ones iv read on here but hopefully it's enough.

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## Guy988G

Ok so the pipe outside is twelve and another three inside so is going from where the fire is to the cap about fifteen.
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
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## Guy988G

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## maple1

I don't think you're getting enough draft with that setup.

Lots of horizontal to the stove pipe, two 90's, short chimney, and it doesn't stick up far past the bottom of the roof line. Can't tell the whole roof story, but I would maybe also suspect it not meeting recommended clearances up there at the chimney top. All the trees might also be hindering, but again can't tell. I would likely consider adding a section of chimney, just based on that. A more accurate idea would come with measuring draft with a manometer.

I would also maybe consider moving that water tank & putting the furnace closer to the thimble - but again can't really tell what else is going on in that area.


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## brenndatomu

With 4 sections of pipe outside that only gives you 12'. Most stoves require at least 15' to work right. And those two 90s are equal to knocking about 6' off the height too. Your stove pipe looks OK, but I would eliminate that 45. It will be real easy, just rotate that 90 on the back of the furnace so that it points right to the breech, run the pipe straight up to it, and then use that elbow you previously removed right at the wall. You will have to play with it (elbow) a little to get the angle right. You may need to make a heat shield for the water tank then too.
A steady uphill run on the stove pipe will help with your smoke rollout issue a lot. Horizontal runs kill draft on these newer stoves because they don't waste a ton of heat up the chimney like the old school stoves did.


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## Guy988G

So,chimney likely to short, that's easy enough to fix. And as far as stove pipe goes your saying take the 45 and put it at the wall and make that run into the 90 at the stove. So the 45 will still be in the system but with less horizontal run thus helping the the rise. I think I got it. I'll see what I can come up with. Thanx gentlemen. 

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## DoubleB

It looks like you have room to spin the furnace 90 degrees counter-clockwise so the rear end has a fairly smooth shot straight and gentle rise to your wall thimble.  That would leave you basically with only one 90-deg elbow.  That would take some work to reorient, but I think that would help a lot and I wouldn't rule it out as an option.

Especially because then it looks like you'd get to use the 8" outlet ducts side-by-side, which is a preferred configuration for heat output.  (It looks like you're using front and back outlets right now?)


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## Guy988G

If I spin it around I think I would have to cut a hole in the top of the blower box to run a return ( which I imagine is possible). I am using front and rear ducts for heat but that's all getting changed anyway. Won't go into detail about those  the head shaking from everyone would be widespread. As far as smoke pipe I mocked it up and did some measurements and it won't meet minimum clearances so thinking maybe double wall black pipe will be in order, as I am also trying to get this setup inspected for insurance at some,point

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## Guy988G

Guy988G said:


> If I spin it around I think I would have to cut a hole in the top of the blower box to run a return ( which I imagine is possible). I am using front and rear ducts for heat but that's all getting changed anyway. Won't go into detail about those  the head shaking from everyone would be widespread. As far as smoke pipe I mocked it up and did some measurements and it won't meet minimum clearances so thinking maybe double wall black pipe will be in order, as I am also trying to get this setup inspected for insurance at some,point
> 
> Sent from my VS880PP using Tapatalk


When I say mocked it up I was referring to the first suggestion.

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## brenndatomu

Guy988G said:


> thinking maybe double wall black pipe will be in order


I was gonna say earlier that if you insulate that stove pipe it will help draft too...or if you go to double wall pipe, that'll work just fine instead of the insulation.
You'll be amazed at the difference these chimney tweaks are gonna make for you...


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## Guy988G

And I really do,appreciate all of you folks help. So so far I'm at changing black pipe around one way or the other as long as I can get clearances right. Then check draft. most likely add another five foot to chimney to get the proper ten foot clearance which i,don't think I have right now. Then hire someone to to,my hvac because I have zero clue on that.

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## brenndatomu

While addressing chimney issues...is the horizontal chimney pipe resting on or near wood framing outside the wall there? If I recall correctly that class A pipe should have 2" clearance to combustibles. Shouldn't be too hard to replace that piece of wood (if it is wood) with some metal.


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## Guy988G

It's open under the pipe I just built a couple boxes laged into the block to mount the clean out frame on.  but the edges of the boards may be to close I'll have to measure them tomorrow.

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## Guy988G

Well crap I found a crack in mine today. Build date is 2013 but I bought in 2014.

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## brenndatomu

Guy988G said:


> View attachment 186106
> 
> 
> 
> Well crap I found a crack in mine today. Build date is 2013 but I bought in 2014.
> 
> Sent from my VS880PP using Tapatalk


Welcome to the club man!  better contact SBI...see what they are doin about that these days....you may be inline for Hearth.coms first Tundra II!


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## Guy988G

I emailed them earlier I'm doubting that they will do a swap arnt the tundras more money

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## brenndatomu

MSRP is about $500 more but they are only about $250 more at Menards...as far as comparing their regular price on the T1 (~$1750) to regular price of a TII ($1999) so if you ordered a TII (Menards not stocking yet) this week, they have their 11% sale on through Saturday night, that would put you at ~$1780 (+ tax)


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## Guy988G

Alright another question probably a dumb one... But is this price of steel part of the firebox? Meaning should the stove be ran at all with that crack present.

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## brenndatomu

No its not part of the firebox, as far as I can tell from that close up pic it is part of the HE cleanout box. I wouldn't worry about running it, there are several of us that have run with much worse than that (and in the firebox too) with no problems. Depending on what SBI does for you, after they have completed the claim you could drill a 1/8" hole at the tip of that crack (that will stop it from spreading) and then run it. I bought mine cracked and that's what I have done, it is fine. I plugged the hole with some furnace cement then too just to make sure there could be no air in or out through it.


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## Guy988G

Ok well that makes my day a little less crappy. Thanx now just curious as to what they will come up with 

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## jb6l6gc

All broken in now! Secondaries a blazing.


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## Guy988G

Looks good can't wait to get mine running correctly.

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## jb6l6gc

Just figured out why my ducts were overheating on high fire and the fan seemed less than impressive.  I guess it should be noted to not use a very restrictive filter in these things.  I was running a pretty standard furnace filter. Took it out to see man what a difference. Lower duct temps right away with way more air flow.  I'm just gonna throw a bottom of the line filter in as I have filter media on my cold air returns


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## Guy988G

I'll take that advice lol iv been running alergy filters on mine last year

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## jb6l6gc

Only thing I still need to do is get the 45s to change my outlets to side to side.


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## Guy988G

How are your heat runs tired into the system. I ask because I'm trying to design my hvac

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## jb6l6gc

I have a 12 round takeoff on the return upstream of my primary furnace and have the two 8" into the top of the plenum of the primary furnace with backdraft dampers.  I run a piece of plywood in place of my primary furnace filter to stop the air from looping.  I need to get a backdraft damper for the return side to eliminate that still. I will take detailed pics and post or if u go to my other thread "this is where I wage war" you can see how my hotblast was hooked up and it's primarily the same.


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## Guy988G

Sounds pretty straight forward I'll check out the pics thank you.

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## jb6l6gc

The most basic diagram I can find but basically how everything is routed. It's a pretty crude diagram!


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## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> I'm just gonna throw a bottom of the line filter in as I have filter media on my cold air returns


The filter that comes with it works well, it is a cheap fabric filter (looks like a thin/cheap allergen filter) if you use one of those really cheap fiberglass filters I think you'll be disappointed...static pressure goes too low and duct temps drop too far to heat the house...the air has to go through the furnace slow enough top pick up the heat (contact time)
Cheap and easy enough to try though...'cause YMMV...


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## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> Only thing I still need to do is get the 45s to change my outlets to side to side.


It will make a difference!


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## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> The filter that comes with it works well, it is a cheap fabric filter (looks like a thin/cheap allergen filter) if you use one of those really cheap fiberglass filters I think you'll be disappointed...static pressure goes too low and duct temps drop too far to heat the house...the air has to go through the furnace slow enough top pick up the heat (contact time)
> Cheap and easy enough to try though...'cause YMMV...


I have a two story house problem is with a good filter it's going too slow and overheating the ducts. It's actually working perfect right now with no filter.

Ducts are nice and warm with excellent airflow!  I think everyone's hvac situation is a little different. No two are the same lol


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## STIHLY DAN

jb6l6gc said:


> Only thing I still need to do is get the 45s to change my outlets to side to side.



Is that an 8 inch flue with no BD?


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## jb6l6gc

STIHLY DAN said:


> Is that an 8 inch flue with no BD?


I don't understand what your asking. My stove pipe and flue are 6". My ducts are 8" with backdraft dampers if that's what your asking


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## DoubleB

jb6l6gc said:


> Just figured out why my ducts were overheating on high fire and the fan seemed less than impressive. I guess it should be noted to not use a very restrictive filter in these things.



In hindsignt, when I ran my return ducting, I wish I would have ditched the stock 15x20 filter, and used a bigger filter (say, 20x25).  The current 15x20 works fine and I get enough airflow, but the bigger filter would have let me use blower speed 1 to get enough airflow, but with less electricity.  Especially with a var speed blower slower than speed 1, every bit of reduced filter and duct restriction is reduced electricity and expense.  I ran some numbers and figured I could have saved an extra $10-$20 per year with that bigger filter.  Won't break the bank, but enough that I would have done it differently.


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## Builderml

Happy fall folks,
Question for you. I am sure this has been asked/discused b4. How are you opening the damper for coal stage? I would like to have some type of setup to open damper anytime the stack surface temp falls below 150 degrees. What say you wise wood burners?


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Happy fall folks,
> Question for you. I am sure this has been asked/discused b4. How are you opening the damper for coal stage? I would like to have some type of setup to open damper anytime the stack surface temp falls below 150 degrees. What say you wise wood burners?


Look back through here for @3fordasho posts, he installed (and I copied) his temp controller setup. It closes the damper whenever the flue temp goes over a programmed setpoint, and then also opens it if temps fall under a programmed setpoint


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## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> Happy fall folks,
> Question for you. I am sure this has been asked/discused b4. How are you opening the damper for coal stage? I would like to have some type of setup to open damper anytime the stack surface temp falls below 150 degrees. What say you wise wood burners?



I did something similar with a snap disc on the furnace flue collar.  I put pictures and a diagram somewhere back in early 2016 I think, not sure what page.  We need a table of contents for this thread.


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## zmcnutt

I picked up a Tundra from Menards last weekend. Price was 1407 out the door but they have the stove on clearance and some rebates and with the current 11% rebate you end up getting it for about 950. Cant wait to get this thing hooked up as I have been using an old buck stove 2700 to supplement heat in an open floor plan home.


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## jb6l6gc

zmcnutt said:


> I picked up a Tundra from Menards last weekend. Price was 1407 out the door but they have the stove on clearance and some rebates and with the current 11% rebate you end up getting it for about 950. Cant wait to get this thing hooked up as I have been using an old buck stove 2700 to supplement heat in an open floor plan home.


ohio eh? you a browns fan at all I am. Man they suck I share season tix


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## zmcnutt

Hahaha no I'm a Bengals fan. Unfortunately not much better but hey at least it was a win today for us


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## TDD11

Hi Everyone, 
I'm new here. I've read the entire thread. I have spent my entire life with wood heat, so I am familiar, but reading this thread made me feel clueless. There's definitely a lot of information in this thread to absorb. 

With my new house, I hope to upgrade the older Jotul F118 that the previous owner left, and I'm considering the original Tundra. I want to upgrade to a stove with a blower in order to get that heat out of the basement and into the upstairs.

Right now, I can  a brand new (old stock display model, built in 10/2013) Tundra 1 for $1000 after mail in rebates and sales tax. 

My house is a brick 2 story, roughly 1600 square feet total - which includes the finished basement where the furnace would reside. 

The chimney runs up through the center of the house, and it is a clay liner. Draft doesn't seem to be an issue with my current stove, I haven't measured it though.

As far as ventilation goes, I would plumb the 2 8" vents from the stove into the furnace duct that is directly above the stove, which has 3-4 registers on the ground level. There is no active heating of the 2nd floor, only through convection via an open staircase from the ground floor living room to the 2nd floor.

I think this stove will be plenty hot, but I'm almost concerned that it will be too much stove. Granted some day I plan to do an addtion but that may be 5 years down the road. 

Thoughts? I'm located in central Ohio. I like some of the controls you guys have developed, and would want to replicate someone's setup.


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## DoubleB

Welcome to hearth, TDD11!  

I think the Tundra can heat more than your house if needed, but you don't need to redline it and it sounds like your house is a good size.  The Tundra will simmer for a long time in a smaller house and is more efficient that way.

I put in a few large 1st floor registers dedicated to the Tundra.  The upstairs was a good 10F colder than the 1st floor.  I have an open staircase, but it's on the east end and the wind blows in from the west.  I ended up hooking my Tundra up to one of the 6" ducts that goes to a west upstairs bedroom and I added a cold return from the upstairs, and it made a big improvement, now the upstairs is about 3-5F cooler (perfect for sleeping).  

How big is your clay liner?  I'm not the chimney expert, but I remember others having trouble if their chimney is too large and/or uninsulated.  The Tundra has pretty cool flue temperatures, so a large diameter and/or uninsulated chimney might not work as well for the Tundra as your current wood heater.


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## TDD11

Thanks DoubleB. I agree that the stove is more than I probably need to heat the house, but might also be sized about perfectly. I see in this thread a lot of comments about how with 2000+ square feet houses, that the stove seems to struggle some.

I wish I could run at least 1 duct to the 2nd floor, but there's no way unless I run it up through a corner of the house and enclosed it with drywall. Essentially, the whole 2nd floor is 1 room, open to the staircase, with exception of a master bedroom and closet. Likewise, the ground floor is entirely open with exception of a half bathroom, although the stone fireplace divides the kitchen from the living room. So the house is mostly open space, and I think that should make it much easier to heat as well.

Yes, the chimney is one thing I'm concerned about. I checked it to make sure it is clean for the season, but I don't know off hand what the size is yet. The Tundra manual says not to have a cross sectional area larger than a 6" diameter pipe, which would equate to a 5.3"x5.3" chimney, and I know that my chimney is larger than that. I have no problems with draft right now with the smaller stove, even when lighting paper to start a fire.

One other question I have, that was not answered in the manual unless I missed it. What is the minimum height rise of the flue to the chimney? I thought there was a minimum vertical height. From the floor, the centerline of the flue exit on the stove is 46". The centerline of the flue to chimney is 63". I didn't know if that would be too little.


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## crewchief264

DoubleB said:


> Congrats!  That's a pretty good deal.
> 
> I'm confused too.  Serial No 734 lines up to about June 2014.  My guess is you bought the display unit, and they agreed to ship the front firebrick which should arrive in a few weeks.
> 
> Either way, it sounds from your history that you will get the Tundra to work just fine even if something down the road needs fixing on your $1100 investment.
> 
> And welcome to hearth.com!




Ok this is gonna be a long one.... I finished reading the entire thread today (as I am a stay at home retired dad). The house 1900sq feet above 1000 sq feet insulated finished basement (the garage is in the basement. Many Pella casement windows (not leaky), retrofoamed 2x4 walls with batts, and over 3 feet of blown in fiberglass in the attic. My old set up was a highly modified hot blast 1500 on a though the house selkirk insulated 6 inch 15 foot chimney. I have never ran a damper and do own a everything to set up a draft controller but honestly I have never had a draft issue and the hot blast ran fine and I was getting 10-12 hour burn times and great heat output. I have a gravity damper above my goodman furnace that is closed until the Main furnace fan comes on. and I have 2 butterfly dampers above the wood furnace that are closed until the wood furnace comes on. I also run a Aprilaire that will kick the main furnace on when humidity is needed. Everything is hooked up to my cold air return. Pics to follow. After picking around with menards on getting a new Tundra and them speaking with Drolet and was told that the old tundra I is no longer available..... I had zero luck and ended up just taking the dipslay model. I figure if it cracks out then I will contact Drolet to have it replaced with a new model. Or maybe they will just give me money back and I will repair this one myself...... I have the temp controller, an adjustable snap disc, and hot tub timer installed. I also wired in a wall switch to turn the furnace controls off when not in use. I may add a thermostat as well. I noticed after install that the damper stays open whenever power is applied.. which means I am basically just sucking conditioned air right out the chimney... .not a good thing for the summer. and I dont want to be pulling the plug all the time. I also noticed the damper will not fully close it leaves a good 1/16inch gap because the arm hits the metal box that shrouds the v bend rod. A little file work and it now fully closes. I don't feel it should have a gap. As soon as I took the gap out I got that nice draft whistle from the furnace... the same one my regency  insert makes in the summer time when the draft is fully closed and the wind picks up. All the above can be adjusted out if it effects the secondary burn. That said I removed the Hotblast and installed the Tundra in one day and did all the wiring the next day. I have emailed SBI and am waiting for a reply to get the new fire bricks sent out. They replied in one day and wanted proof of purchase. So that is taken care of. I was able to reuse all my hotblst duct work witha  little snipping and some aluminum tape.. as for the flue connection I used all the same black wall pipe. the pipe that connects to the furnace is a double wall unit and mack sure to drill through and inspect that the pipe is flush. I then back fill the outside portion with funace  cement.  no leaks  and worked well on the hotblast and i expect the same results on the tundra. 


Ok subject two: Variable speed fan you can purchase a variable speed fan at any HVAC store. Just get one sized reasonable to the one in the furnace already. And I have not researched the controller you would use so I look forward to the reply. That said has anybody checked to see of the damper control not the tundra is variable? I am guessing it is only on off. A variable damper that can be controlled off flue and air jacket temp would be ideal to modulate secondary burn and could extend the burn times and effiency quite a bit... On my regency I just manually adjust the damper.........  

As for now I'd like to see what a temps you have your controllers set at... I have mine set up like the original post suggests 625 and haven't had a fire yet and haven't played with it obviously.....


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## crewchief264

and more hot blast:


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## crewchief264

hot blast inside


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## crewchief264

hot blast install


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## crewchief264

Tundra install


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## 3fordasho

crewchief264 said:


> Ok subject two: Variable speed fan you can purchase a variable speed fan at any HVAC store. Just get one sized reasonable to the one in the furnace already. And I have not researched the controller you would use so I look forward to the reply. That said has anybody checked to see of the damper control not the tundra is variable? I am guessing it is only on off. A variable damper that can be controlled off flue and air jacket temp would be ideal to modulate secondary burn and could extend the burn times and effiency quite a bit... On my regency I just manually adjust the damper.........
> 
> As for now I'd like to see what a temps you have your controllers set at... I have mine set up like the original post suggests 625 and haven't had a fire yet and haven't played with it obviously.....



Check with @brenndatomu for his variable speed blower set up, I've basically copied what he did and am pretty happy with it.

I don't think anyone has tackled the variable damper control yet, would be an interesting project for sure and can't be too difficult ;-)

As far as my temp controller settings, I still have my first set up to shut the damper when temps hit 625F.  That said, every install and chimney will be different, and my 2nd Tundra install in a different building needed a 575F setting.   For some reason that set up would seldom reach much over 600F.  Again different chimney - maybe not as much draft.  Same thing for the low temp alarm setting to open the damper when temps go too low, (or help burn down coals at the end of the burn) but I am typically in the 210F - 250F range for that setting.   And don't forget your hysteresis settings for both control and alarm settings, I used 200F swing for the 625f control settings, and 100f for the low temp alarm.  If you leave the factory settings for  the hysteresis you will be cycling the damper way too much.


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## Builderml

3fordasho,
Can you direct me to your detailed listing of the control setup you have? I looked thru previous post and I think I missed it.
Thanks


----------



## crewchief264

Builderml said:


> 3fordasho,
> Can you direct me to your detailed listing of the control setup you have? I looked thru previous post and I think I missed it.
> Thanks




Start at page 13 and read from there on


----------



## 3fordasho

Builderml said:


> 3fordasho,
> Can you direct me to your detailed listing of the control setup you have? I looked thru previous post and I think I missed it.
> Thanks




See posts # 306, 315, and 385 in this thread


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## brenndatomu

crewchief264 said:


> Ok subject two: Variable speed fan you can purchase a variable speed fan at any HVAC store. Just get one sized reasonable to the one in the furnace already. And I have not researched the controller you would use so I look forward to the reply. That said has anybody checked to see of the damper control not the tundra is variable? I am guessing it is only on off. A variable damper that can be controlled off flue and air jacket temp would be ideal to modulate secondary burn and could extend the burn times and effiency quite a bit... On my regency I just manually adjust the damper.........
> 
> As for now I'd like to see what a temps you have your controllers set at... I have mine set up like the original post suggests 625 and haven't had a fire yet and haven't played with it obviously.....


You can buy a variable speed motor, but they are very expensive to get it and the controller (a true variable speed, which is DC) Most "variable" speed motors are like the Tundras blower motor which is actually just multi-speed, as in pick one and wire it that way. I wanted true variable speed and this controller that @STIHLY DAN  suggested has worked out very well for me. It changes the blower speed from 100% down to about 60% before it shuts the blower off based on duct air temp. When the temp rises around 10*, then the blower will kick back on at full speed for a short period of time (adjustable) then kick down to the appropriate speed. The Tundras blower is a sleeve bearing motor so you can only go down to 60% or so without causing problems, which is plenty low enough IMO, because the blower is moving very little air at that point anyways. If it had a motor with ball bearing you could go lower on the minimum speed before shutoff.
I haven't played with varying the intake damper, with the temp controller in place I really don't think there is much to gain there since the most efficient way to run, once the firebox temp is up, is for the damper to be closed.
I run my temp controller temps lower than @3fordasho , I'll have to look what they are set at right now, don't recall since I haven't messed with it since spring (running the fireplace stove upstairs right now)


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## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I think this stove will be plenty hot, but I'm almost concerned that it will be too much stove. Granted some day I plan to do an addtion but that may be 5 years down the road.


Welcome @TDD11 You'll be fine with a Tundra. After you have it for a while you will learn how to load (size) according to heat demand and how to use soft and hardwoods to satisfy light and heavy heat loads.


TDD11 said:


> One other question I have, that was not answered in the manual unless I missed it. What is the minimum height rise of the flue to the chimney? I thought there was a minimum vertical height. From the floor, the centerline of the flue exit on the stove is 46". The centerline of the flue to chimney is 63". I didn't know if that would be too little.


Not really a minimum height per say other than you need enough height to maintain a minimum rise to your run if you have very much horizontal stove pipe (the less the better, and the steeper the better) IIRC it is 1" rise per foot of run with 10' being the maximum run. Even this would be highly discouraged as it will probably perform poorly. Ideally you would be able to place the furnace so that you could put a 45* elbow on the back of the unit which runs straight to a 45* elbow at the chimney. Or even better, a 90* elbow at the back of the Tundra and then straight up into an internal class A chimney


----------



## JustinE

This is my first post and I would like to say thanks for so much information so far.  I bought my tundra early spring when it was on sale and am just finishing getting it installed in my 2 story barn(workshop downstairs and a bar upstairs).  I have gathered so much information so far, but thought I would get everyone's opinion on the rest of my install.  I just finished the chimney and built a stand to get it off the ground.  I am ready to start running some ductwork to get the air upstairs.  I have run it a couple times on the pallet just to see how it works.  What I have found so far is that there is so much heat radiation downstairs that I will probably duct both runs upstairs(as this is where we will probably end up most of the time lol).  Has anyone else put one of these in an outbuilding or shop?  Just wondering what everyone else has done for ductwork?  I will attach a couple photos to give everyone an idea of what I got so far.  Any input is appreciated.


----------



## Craig9702

Ok I'm going on my second winter with the tundra.  Last year I had poor results but mostly I believe because of the chimney.  I had a 8x11 flu which I learned was far to big. Since then I installed a 6" round flexible stainless liner with a barometric damper,  purchased a manometor and set the draft to .04 to .06 depending on the wind.  However I have still been concerned on how hot I can get the stove before being concerned of overfiring.  I have been running it manually with the switch,  and like other people I am sick of running up and down the stairs trying to warm up the house.  So today is the first day I called drolet,  and told the gentleman I wanna know how hot can I SAFELY run the stove.  He told me hook it up to a thermostat and basically set it and forget it.  I explained to him that if I light a fire and my house is 64 degrees and I set the thermostat at 70 or 72,  the stove is gonna run for quite a while and probably hit the high limit switch multiple times trying to get to temp.  He said that the stove will SAFELY open and close the damper as needed and no need to be concerned.  I would appreciate some thoughts on his advice from people that have some good experience with the furnace.  Thanks


----------



## DoubleB

JustinE said:


> Has anyone else put one of these in an outbuilding or shop?



Welcome to hearth JustinE!

@3fordasho has two Tundras, one is in a shop, somewhere around page 15 of this thread.

That's a sharp looking building you have.  The nice thing about your install is that is appears relatively easy to run more ductwork if you find you have a cold spot. So, if you think the downstairs will be warm enough with just radiant from the furnace, then I'd start with simply ducts to the (much larger) 2nd floor.  If you find you want a little extra heat downstairs, it looks pretty easy to put a T in one or both of your 8" outlets to run one or two 6" ducts somewhere downstairs.


----------



## DoubleB

Craig9702 said:


> He told me hook it up to a thermostat and basically set it and forget it.



I say BS.  SBI is great, but this is the stuff that frustrates me.  If you get cracking, SBI will say you abused your furnace and installed it incorrectly. 



Craig9702 said:


> I explained to him that if I light a fire and my house is 64 degrees and I set the thermostat at 70 or 72, the stove is gonna run for quite a while and probably hit the high limit switch multiple times trying to get to temp.



Your thinking is exactly right, and from our experience is what can get your furnace in trouble.  I'd estimate that if open damper is 100% heat and high cracking risk over time, that closed damper is 75% heat with much half the wood and lower cracking risk over time.  My approach, both to conserve wood and my furnace, was to observe the furnace at peak burn with the damper closed, then add overtemp protection at a setpoint that would close the damper if it was opened for just a couple minutes.  No need to get any hotter.  That's a backdoor way of finding a max allowable temp--I just defined my own based upon what I didn't need to exceed and what I knew wasn't too far hotter than typical damper closed.

Don't be intimidated by an overtemp system.  You could do a controller like @3fordasho mentions above in post#1663.  You could alternatively do snap discs like mine on page 46, which doesn't require electronics know-how (although is not as precise).

You can also see page 45 for SBI's description of safe operating temperatures, but there are many variables and you might be skeptical.


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Welcome @TDD11 You'll be fine with a Tundra. After you have it for a while you will learn how to load (size) according to heat demand and how to use soft and hardwoods to satisfy light and heavy heat loads.
> 
> Not really a minimum height per say other than you need enough height to maintain a minimum rise to your run if you have very much horizontal stove pipe (the less the better, and the steeper the better) IIRC it is 1" rise per foot of run with 10' being the maximum run. Even this would be highly discouraged as it will probably perform poorly. Ideally you would be able to place the furnace so that you could put a 45* elbow on the back of the unit which runs straight to a 45* elbow at the chimney. Or even better, a 90* elbow at the back of the Tundra and then straight up into an internal class A chimney


Ok thank you. I sent you a PM by the way. 
I believe I will run a 90 out the back of the stove, a very short section of vertical pipe depending on the radius of the 90, and then another 90 into the thimble. 



Craig9702 said:


> Ok I'm going on my second winter with the tundra.  Last year I had poor results but mostly I believe because of the chimney.  I had a 8x11 flu which I learned was far to big.


Did you ever measure your draft with this setup? I'm curious, is it as others have mentioned, just not enough heat from the Tundra to get a good draft?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> What is the minimum height rise of the flue to the chimney? I thought there was a minimum vertical height


Got to thinking about this more, I _have_ seen some stoves that state a minimum vertical rise before going horizontal...its something like 18"-24" IIRC. But I've never seen any spec like that on any wood furnace that I can remember. Probably because furnaces usually go in the basement and have tall chimneys with strong draft.


----------



## brenndatomu

Craig9702 said:


> So today is the first day I called drolet, and told the gentleman I wanna know how hot can I SAFELY run the stove. He told me hook it up to a thermostat and basically set it and forget it


@DoubleB  took the words right outta my mouth when I read this, *BS!* Somewhere in this thread I believe I copied and pasted the email that SBI sent me saying that this...


Craig9702 said:


> if I light a fire and my house is 64 degrees and I set the thermostat at 70 or 72, the stove is gonna run for quite a while and probably hit the high limit switch multiple times trying to get to temp


...was the reason that the Tundras were cracking... basically said people were running the bag off of 'em. I'll see if I can find it.


----------



## brenndatomu

OK, here it is, I thought I posted this before but apparently not. I copied this directly from the email from them. Notice the 4th and 6th line...sounds like just the opposite of what they told @Craig9702 !

"Hello,
Some people did have a problems with their furnace, but what they do not tell is the way it has been installed or used.
WE found that most of problems occurred when the installation is not meeting the minimum requirements of the owner’s manual.
Having the proper air distribution, having the proper static pressure in the ducts, having the proper chimney size, length  and ‘’draft’’.
Making sure that the air damper is not staying open from the time you load until the combustion is over.
Making sure that the blower is set the proper way and in operation.
This furnace is a good residential furnace not built to heat a commercial place, not build to heat a garage also serving a house and run at full blast all the time.
There are many reasons why these furnaces have had problems.
For the very most of the time the root case was determined to be a bad installation, or usage."


----------



## Lcback

I really think bad instillation is an excuse for. They advertised it as heating 2500 sqft. And maybe it should be more like 1800. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Guy988G

Well update on the crack in my heatmax. I herd back from them today.
Have to take three pics of the inside of the firebox.
Take pics of the install with measurements.
Fill out a three page inspection packet.
And more pics of the crack and area surrounding it.
And proof of purchase even though I have sent it to them once already when I found that they wired the entire furnace backwards.


Sent from my VS880PP using Tapatalk


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I thought I posted this before but apparently not.



Don't doubt yourself, you did post it.  Post #226 on page 10.  

FYI to everyone, I'm working on a table of contents, this being an example where I used it to quickly find something that otherwise is a memory.  I'm excited about it.  It'll be awesome, if I may say so myself.  I'm almost done and will post it when ready.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Don't doubt yourself, you did post it. Post #226 on page 10.


Thanks, I thought so but I couldn't come up with it this afternoon...too big of a hurry I guess


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> I say BS. SBI is great, but this is the stuff that frustrates me. If you get cracking, SBI will say you abused your furnace and installed it incorrectly.



For how long are people going to say this statement. Its been years now with miss information or out rite lies, yet people continue to think they are "great". Man I just don't get it.


----------



## DoubleB

I wouldn't imply too much emphasis on the "great".  I appreciate that they've refunded or replaced everyone's furnace that I recall, they periodically demonstrate great acts of customer service, and they offer products that a lot of people like.  But I don't trust them except to refund people's money.

The only efficient non-SBI option at the moment is your Kuuma.  Given the price tag, SBI is the only option for most of us, so it's a love/hate relationship.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> For how long are people going to say this statement. Its been years now with miss information or out rite lies, yet people continue to think they are "great". Man I just don't get it.


Kinda like the Ferrari owner comin on the Taurus owners forum to rag on 'em...no?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Kinda like the Ferrari owner comin on the Taurus owners forum to rag on 'em...no?



I do not mean it like that. I would have said that even if I did not burn wood. NO matter how good the furnace is, the "other stuff" is what would/does piss me off.
I also am interested in all heating appliances as that is what I do and the wood half is also a hobby. So I do enjoy this thread and the good people in it, along with some of the great idea's that have been brought to light. I think you all should take over the production of the tundra. Now that would be something.


----------



## maple1

DoubleB said:


> I wouldn't imply too much emphasis on the "great".  I appreciate that they've refunded or replaced everyone's furnace that I recall, they periodically demonstrate great acts of customer service, and they offer products that a lot of people like.  But I don't trust them except to refund people's money.
> 
> The only efficient non-SBI option at the moment is your Kuuma.  Given the price tag, SBI is the only option for most of us, so it's a love/hate relationship.



Are the Caddys SBI also?


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Are the Caddys SBI also?


Yup


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> Kinda like the Ferrari owner comin on the Taurus owners forum to rag on 'em...no?


Hey it could aleways be worse I could still be burning my old hotblast and have to get up on the roof mid season for a liner clean down. After running my heatmax for a bit now the only thing I will say that im not impressed with is the fan. Just like my hotblast it seems a little under powered for what they have this thing spec'd out to do! I may end up uprgrading that in the near future!


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> Hey it could aleways be worse I could still be burning my old hotblast and have to get up on the roof mid season for a liner clean down. After running my heatmax for a bit now the only thing I will say that im not impressed with is the fan. Just like my hotblast it seems a little under powered for what they have this thing spec'd out to do! I may end up uprgrading that in the near future!


Hmm, that's weird, never heard complaints on the fan before. I can't come anywhere near to being able to run mine on high...cycles _way_ too much


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> Hmm, that's weird, never heard complaints on the fan before. I can't come anywhere near to being able to run mine on high...cycles _way_ too much


I've been running mine on high and it doesnt cycle at all except for at startup, my electric furnace fan pushes air at a much higher rate then this thing.
I think I may be because I'm right at the top end of sq footage this thing was meant to handle.  I upgraded my fan on the hotblast and it was like night and day. If I come accross a good used 120v furnace fan I may just do the same to this thing, we shall see!


----------



## JRHAWK9

jb6l6gc said:


> I've been running mine on high and it doesnt cycle at all except for at startup, my electric furnace fan pushes air at a much higher rate then this thing.
> I think I may be because I'm right at the top end of sq footage this thing was meant to handle.  I upgraded my fan on the hotblast and it was like night and day. If I come accross a good used 120v furnace fan I may just do the same to this thing, we shall see!



Have you checked your static pressures, both return and supply?  Are you running a super restrictive air filter?  Seems odd to me.  You are obviously not moving much air, so either your return or supply side is somehow being restricted.  I would think, normally, in a large house, you'd have the opposite problem where you have too little supply static pressure from all the supply registers.


----------



## Pinny

DoubleB said:


> Don't doubt yourself, you did post it.  Post #226 on page 10.
> 
> FYI to everyone, I'm working on a table of contents, this being an example where I used it to quickly find something that otherwise is a memory.  I'm excited about it.  It'll be awesome, if I may say so myself.  I'm almost done and will post it when ready.



Thank you! I have read almost the whole forum looking for information and yet I feel like I am going to ask a question that's already been asked.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> You are obviously not moving much air, so either your return or supply side is somehow being restricted


This is what I'm thinking too, there is a restriction there somewhere, the only way mine is gonna run on high without cycling is damper open and a RIPPIN for goin. (lots of BTUs up the chimney too)


----------



## DoubleB

Welcome to hearth, @Pinny !  



Pinny said:


> I have read almost the whole forum looking for information and yet I feel like I am going to ask a question that's already been asked.



Sure, that's possible, but no worries.  The idea of the table of contents is to help, certainly not to suggest the same question can't be asked twice.  We look forward to hearing from you.


----------



## DoubleB

Ok everyone, I finished and posted a Table of Contents for this thread.  (Actually, I ended up calling it a "Information Guide", but that's not very important.)

It's in its own thread that will probably become a sticky.  The moderators will probably lock that thread to keep the discussion over here, not there.  More description (and references) are in that other thread.

Currently, the thread is here, although the moderators might revise this url once it gets to it's final home:  

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/tundra-heatmax-information-guide.157330/

Also, Brenndatomu, I, or anyone else that desires may put this url in our signature lines so that people can quickly click to the TOC (or whatever it's called).

I hope you find it helpful.  I already have in the last couple days as I was preparing it.  A fun trip down memory lane, too!


----------



## maple1

Wouldn't a TOC maybe be better if it was on the first page of the thread instead? Then it would always be right there.

A mod could likely insert it there if wanted. It sure would be handy though - this thread is a monster full of lots of golden info.


----------



## brenndatomu

maple1 said:


> Wouldn't a TOC maybe be better if it was on the first page of the thread instead? Then it would always be right there.
> 
> A mod could likely insert it there if wanted. It sure would be handy though - this thread is a monster full of lots of golden info.


The only problem with that is it is a PITA to update then, would almost have to lock the thread...which we talked about doing. May start a "part 2" here at some point...and then also a "TII" thread when those start popping up...
Get to thinking about it, since the link to the TOC is in my sig line now the TOC is kinda in the first post now 

A big thanks goes out to @DoubleB  for making this TOC, a ton of time tied up in it I'm sure!


----------



## jb6l6gc

JRHAWK9 said:


> Have you checked your static pressures, both return and supply?  Are you running a super restrictive air filter?  Seems odd to me.  You are obviously not moving much air, so either your return or supply side is somehow being restricted.  I would think, normally, in a large house, you'd have the opposite problem where you have too little supply static pressure from all the supply registers.


I'm running a 12" round return to the tundra. I wonder if that's restricting it?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Wow, that is a ton of work for a "volunteer" Someone is very passionate about these units. The only suggestion I can offer is to maybe bring up in the 1st 5, The ash pan issues on the 1st models. This is a life and death issue with these units and as far as we know SBI has not reached out to the owners of the deadly design flaw. Now they are selling display models that may well be the same death traps as the original. Maybe just a warning in the beginning about the deadly start of the Tundra.


----------



## TDD11

Ok.. so I borrowed some equipment from work. I don't know the chimney height yet, but it is a 8x12" clay lined chimney that goes up through the center of the house. 

I loaded the little Jotul this morning, and returned to a few coals today around 5. What I'm getting at is that I didn't have a cold chimney, but I didn't have a hot one either. I don't have a problem with smoke when starting a fire on a cold stove/chimney, but you guys have had me worried about chimney draft when I go with the Tundra. I raked what few coals I had, and threw 2 split pieces of ash on, one a good dry piece and one that is probably over 20% moisture.

I added a precision K type Omega thermocouple to the flue, right after the key damper (which is left open for all of this). This TC is centered in the flue. I also added a Dwyer Series 2000-00 Magnehelic gauge that I got free from work, connected to a 1/4" stainless tube, which is also centered in the flue pipe, perpendicular to the flow. 

With the intake damper on the stove open, and a flue temp (measured with an annually calibrated Fluke Thermocouple meter from work) of 350*F, I get .04 to .05 w.c. of draft. This is with no other appliances on, and windows closed. If I open a basement window I pick up .001 w.c. of draft. If I run the clothes dryer in an adjacent room in the basement, I drop .001 w.c. of draft. Also of note, I have noticed that the draft level could be improved upon. This little Jotul has cracks in the back corners, and the back plate isn't sealed up tight enough, so I am losing some draft at the back of my stove.

*Is the .004 w.c. to .006 w.c. suggested range at room temp flue, or at a certain temperature?? *

My concern is this.. everyone is suggesting a 6" steel chimney, even Drolet themselves in the manual. However, I come from a whole family of bricklayers, and this house was built by my grandpa 26 years ago. They might disown me if I put in a stainless liner  but also because the chimney has an offset in it which would add to the difficulty of a potential liner. 

I want to cross my T's and dot my I's before installing this Drolet Tundra in my basement.* What alternate measurements would you guys like to see, in regards to my chimney and how much draft I have?*


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Is the .004 w.c. to .006 w.c. suggested range at room temp flue, or at a certain temperature??


At operating temp. It will be almost zero with a cold chimney. The draft readings will go up with cold weather...it was pretty warm today (if you did it today)
The issue with an oversized flue (especially an un-insulated masonry one) is that once you get the firebox into cruise mode (damper closed) there is not enough heat wasted up the chimney to keep it warm and drafting consistently. Ask @Digger79  about this...he found this to be true after putting up an insulated 6" chimney (the second time around)


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> At operating temp. It will be almost zero with a cold chimney. The draft readings will go up with cold weather...it was pretty warm today (if you did it today)
> The issue with an oversized flue (especially an un-insulated masonry one) is that once you get the firebox into cruise mode (damper closed) there is not enough heat wasted up the chimney to keep it warm and drafting consistently. Ask @Digger79  about this...he found this to be true after putting up an insulated 6" chimney (the second time around)


I fully believe that. What is the typical operating temp of the Tundra while in cruise mode? I'm not doubting that other users have had issues, or that I am likely to as well. I'm just trying to get an idea as to how bad it might be. 

And yes, you're correct, that was today. I meant to add that to my post. 50*F outdoor temperature.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> What is the typical operating temp of the Tundra while in cruise mode?


Mine seems to like to settle in around 3-350* after loading...some seem to run a little hotter.

The fact that the chimney is internal to the house will help...but that is all the more reason to line it IMO, more likely to burn the house down if there is a chimney fire (IMO) A properly lined and insulated chimney helps me sleep at night...and feel better about leaving for work in the morning right after loading the furnace for the day with my family still sleeping in their beds...

The other thing is that unless you can actually verify that the whole chimney has proper clearances to the wood framing then it is required by code to be lined/insulated..._very few_ are proper from what I hear...dang framing crews


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> The only suggestion I can offer is to maybe bring up in the 1st 5, The ash pan issues on the 1st models. This is a life and death issue with these units and as far as we know SBI has not reached out to the owners of the deadly design flaw. Now they are selling display models that may well be the same death traps as the original. Maybe just a warning in the beginning about the deadly start of the Tundra.


Good point. I don't think very many people are using the ash pans just because it is easier to shovel it out and be done with it, but yeah, we need to bring it up again since there may be some older units going into service.
I don't get how the ash drawers on wood stoves don't cause problems, most of em are literally just a metal drawer hangin under the stove where you scoop ash into...not sealed at all!


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Thats because the stove is in a negative. That pan in the air flow of the unit causes the unit to suck it out and push it into the living space.


----------



## Pinny

DoubleB said:


> Welcome to hearth, @Pinny !
> Sure, that's possible, but no worries.  The idea of the table of contents is to help, certainly not to suggest the same question can't be asked twice.  We look forward to hearing from you.



Thank you for the add.. I hope I can bring something interesting to this group. This is my first year with my own wood furnace! A Drolet Tundra! I have learned quite a bit from you guys already as well as some fires I have been burning. For me the beginner I have found much of the information is very useful to learn about not only the stove its self but all the variables that go with burning wood.


----------



## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> The only suggestion I can offer is to maybe bring up in the 1st 5, The ash pan issues on the 1st models. This is a life and death issue with these units and as far as we know SBI has not reached out to the owners of the deadly design flaw. Now they are selling display models that may well be the same death traps as the original. Maybe just a warning in the beginning about the deadly start of the Tundra.



Thanks @STIHLY DAN .  Good point, I'm not sure what the best way to do it is.  IIRC, we actually didn't talk about the ash pan here yet.  The topic has come up a couple times, but no informative discussion yet that I recall.  I think that was all on the other site.  The information guide only cataloged what we've actually discussed here, so I'm not sure how to squeeze it in.

Maybe, like you say, I can edit the sticky at some point to mention the ash pan issue.  I wouldn't have anything to point it to, but at least mention it.  For those that have knowledge about it, please contribute at any time such as now on page 69, and we can have somewhere to direct people for important info.

IMO I wouldn't call it a "deadly start of the Tundra" seeing as it didn't cause any injury that I recall, much less death.  But "a life and death issue" seems very appropriate IMO.


----------



## trx250r87

SBI sent me 3 updated ash pans early on. The first 2 arrived dented and bent.

I also received some furnace cement, a steel thimble and a couple white felt-like gaskets. I ended up just sealing the ash pan plug hole with furnace cement seeing that I never used the pan anyway. 

Here is a video I posted a couple years ago of the furnace fan air coming through the ash pan area into the fire box...



Sent from my SM-G930R6 using Tapatalk


----------



## KC Matt

Hey guys, first time poster here. 

I've been following this thread for a year and finally decided to buy a Tundra from Menards.  I waited until April of 2016 to be sure I received an updated model.  Well it looks like they shipped old stock instead.  It's serial number 1766 and if I'm reading correctly, it says made in Canada 11/25/2014.  That's a date at the very bottom of the same sticker that has the serial stamped.  I'm not positive that's a build date as it looks like it was printed along with the sticker while the serial appears to be added later.  I looked through this thread for the last hour and still can't tell how to identify the old build vs the newer build.

Anyway, I've already had issues installing it which I didn't see addressed in this thread.  The exhaust outlet is 5 7/8" ID so the 6" OD black pipe wont fit.  I crimped the male side of the black pipe until it would fit, but now it has massive air gaps that would allow lots of flue gas to escape.  What brand of pipe will actually fit this thing?  Or is there some other way to make it fit?  

I fired the unit outside upon receiving it, assuming it would be a late build date and now I suspect Menards won't exchange it.  Should I call SBI and request a replacement?

I'm pretty disgusted with my experience so far and I'm hesitant to have the necessary duct work built knowing the stove will fail and have to be replaced.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I would call SBI. Almost 2 years old is not new, that would be called NOS.


----------



## trx250r87

I think I used a stove pipe adapter and had some minor air gaps that I filled with high temp gasket rope.


----------



## DoubleB

Welcome to hearth, @KC Matt !

I'm fuzzy on the differences between new and old versions of the Tundra I, but look at pages 38, 48, and 50 of this thread, including some serial numbers.  Search the link in my signature line for more.  I think the assumption around here is that we didn't trust SBI had solved the cracking on any Tundra I.  Time will tell for Tundra II.

I don't recall people having trouble with the flue collar.  I can try to measure mine when I get home to see if it's the same size as yours.  Have you measured your draft?


----------



## KC Matt

DoubleB said:


> Welcome to hearth, @KC Matt !
> 
> I'm fuzzy on the differences between new and old versions of the Tundra I, but look at pages 38, 48, and 50 of this thread, including some serial numbers.  Search the link in my signature line for more.  I think the assumption around here is that we didn't trust SBI had solved the cracking on any Tundra I.  Time will tell for Tundra II.
> 
> I don't recall people having trouble with the flue collar.  I can try to measure mine when I get home to see if it's the same size as yours.  Have you measured your draft?



People mentioned the firebox being welded to the face plate on the old models, and thinner material on an air deflector one one or the other, and looking at the pictures posted and at my stove, I can't tell what they are talking about.

The stove isn't hooked up currently so I haven't measured the draft.  This thread is so long and I know there were instructions on how to measure it somewhere.  I planned to install a manometer and a thermometer.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I think the assumption around here is that we didn't trust SBI had solved the cracking on any Tundra I.


I'd be willing to bet the replacement one that @Digger79  got from SBI will be just fine...


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I'd be willing to bet the replacement one that @Digger79 got from SBI will be just fine...



I hope so.  I got my users confused, I was thinking of @Builderml 's posts on page 38.  He got cracking on ser# 1993.  I think it was either him or @Digger79  that are on their 2nd Tundra, after their 1st warrantied.

Either way, Builderml's cracked on a serial number later than @KC Matt 's.  And, I admit I don't understand if we ever concluded around here we had a strong theory for what caused the cracking, so I'm not able to describe how/if SBI has actually fixed it.


----------



## DoubleB

KC Matt said:


> The exhaust outlet is 5 7/8" ID



Mine is on the minus side of the 6.00" mark for ID.  Both vertically and horizontally.  I don't have that problem, nor do I have much advice except to take @STIHLY DAN 's advice.


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> I hope so.  I got my users confused, I was thinking of @Builderml 's posts on page 38.  He got cracking on ser# 1993.  I think it was either him or @Digger79  that are on their 2nd Tundra, after their 1st warrantied.
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, Builderml's cracked on a serial number later than @KC Matt 's.  And, I admit I don't understand if we ever concluded around here we had a strong theory for what caused the cracking, so I'm not able to describe how/if SBI has actually fixed it.


I am still on the original unit that I recently had the cracks welded.
See




	

		
			
		

		
	
,


----------



## Builderml

I think correct me if I am wrong but I have the newest (old) unit that had not had the cracking issues fully resolved. Not sure who the member is but someone just asked how they can tell if thier unit will crack or not. In this picture where I show the red arrows going to the 6 or so welds under the door are no longer b eing done on the last updated units. I think and again it's just me now that this is the answer in stopping the cracking. The last unit some had on here no longer had the welds and they had some rope caulk IIRC.




In my book if your unit has those welds and you do NOT have some type of temp controller setup you will have cracking in the near future. Hope that helps whom ever had asked.


----------



## TDD11

Do you think it would be worthwhile to use a dremel and cut those welds, or face the odds of cracking and expect a refund?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Do you think it would be worthwhile to use a dremel and cut those welds, or face the odds of cracking and expect a refund?


If you cut it they would probably deny a warranty claim because you modified it "and that's why it broke"


----------



## TDD11

True.. well this stove is going down my stairs soon, and once it does, it isn't going back up the stairs unless its in pieces. Lol


----------



## Builderml

TDD11 said:


> Do you think it would be worthwhile to use a dremel and cut those welds, or face the odds of cracking and expect a refund?


Like Brenn said i wouldn't give SBI a reason to deny a warranty claim. With that said SBI didn't ask for any pictures of those welds when i filed the claim. They asked for inside firebox and the cracks and an overall install photo. It's really your call to make. Just keep a very close eye on those two lower corners so you can catch the crack at its very early stage. Also don't drill the crack until after warranty is done. Not sure how accurate this is but the right side cracked first for me.


----------



## Builderml

KC Matt said:


> People mentioned the firebox being welded to the face plate on the old models, and thinner material on an air deflector one one or the other, and looking at the pictures posted and at my stove, I can't tell what they are talking about.
> 
> The stove isn't hooked up currently so I haven't measured the draft.  This thread is so long and I know there were instructions on how to measure it somewhere.  I planned to install a manometer and a thermometer.


 Read post # 1714. Hope that helps


----------



## Gibbo1979

Hello all, been reading through posts last couple days. Good stuff!! Probably would have cracked stove in a week of burning if I hadn't read this blog first. Gonna remove my Johnson Energy Systems j-9900 this week and install my Tundra. Tundra was built on 9/16/2014, s/n 1380. Gonna contact sbi for upgrades. Gonna try to add similar safeguards as 3fordasho did. Also a variable fan switch. Thx.


----------



## brenndatomu

Welcome to the club Gibbo. Keep us pictorially updated...


----------



## crewchief264

Made my first small fire today... only put in 3 pieces of chiese elm.. it was between 11-14% moisture.. I had the flue set at 625..... just as the original set up for the omega control.... I did not have my new adjustable thermo disc installed. I noticed the flue never got above 375 degrees.. and the damper only closed when I manually closed it. The front of the furnace also never got above 350 degrees. Again I didn't load the thing up.. it did raise the temp of the house 2 degrees.. I did manually close the damper by changing the controller settings and it went into secondary..... SO I have lots of learning and playing to do with my controller.

Since this morning I have moved the Omni controller from the back of the furnace to the front. and ran some new conduit. I also installed the adjustable thermodisc and have it set to 100 degrees.. The fans only kicked on a couple times and only ran maybe 10 minutes.... Thats not gonna cut it.. I have High temp insulation blankets that I am installing inside the cabinet this weekend if I have time... pics coming. I dunno why this site is such a PITA to upload pics to?


----------



## DoubleB

crewchief264 said:


> I noticed the flue never got above 375 degrees.. and the damper only closed when I manually closed it.


 
Sounds about right for a very small load.  



crewchief264 said:


> I also installed the adjustable thermodisc and have it set to 100 degrees.. The fans only kicked on a couple times and only ran maybe 10 minutes....



I might have forgotten...what are you trying to achieve with the adjustable thermodisc?  If you are replacing the fan snap disc, then it sounds like something doesn't add up, since the original snap disc is set to start the fan at 120F and stop the fan at 100F.



crewchief264 said:


> I have High temp insulation blankets that I am installing inside the cabinet this weekend if I have time...



Can you explain this more?  (what you're trying to do)?  I'm not sure where you can put insulation, or where it would help, either, even if there is room.  Sounds like it might be a great idea, I just don't have a picture in my mind.

Thanks for the pictures of your install, looks like a nice job.  BTW, you might want to think about your wood storage.  It doesn't look hard for a couple sparks to jump out when you open the door and land in your wood storage and burn the house down 15 minutes later.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Thats some good looking pics. Are the clearance to combustibles met?


----------



## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> Are the clearance to combustibles met?



I was curious enough to look in my manual, it says min clearance is 11" to the sides of the furnace, for example.

We're not dumping on ya, @crewchief264 .  We'd just hate for something awful to happen to your house, or worse--to you and your family.  And, if your insurance company is like mine, they won't insure unless it's installed according to the manual, so to rub salt in a wound you'd hate the insurance company to deny a claim on a burned down house when they find the furnace was too close to combustibles.  

Maybe you'd want to identify any places that overlap the min distance to combustibles to see if there's an easy way to mitigate it.  Sometimes it's just putting a sheet metal barrier in the way.


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## crewchief264

My old hot blast had the same amount clearance. I understand the risks involved with a wood furnace. The clearance to combustibles is within acceptable limits. I appreciate the heads up. My wood pile is close to the wood furnace, however a bit of being and carful and I have never had a problem. Honestly I feel my fireplace insert upstairs is more dangerous than these furnaces could ever be. ( I have a regency 2800i) I have limited space in my finished basement. I have this Furnace in the exact same location as my hot blast that ran for years with no problem. I have a fire extinguisher in close proximity just in case something bad were to happen. I do appreciate the advice though. I had lots of carful consideration before I put a wood furnace in and moved all the combustable items as far away as I could given my space restraints. 

I purchased high temp DEI spray adhesive and I will be insulating the outer cabinet on the inside. the insulation is rated to 2000 degrees and is only 1/4 inch in thikness. I was intrigued by previous posts and was always amazed about how much heat was not being used efficiently with my hot blast. This Drolet is no different. So the insulation will also help with that heat transfer in the basement.

As to the thermodisc question: My Hotblast would cycle the fan all the time and I would never get the heat needed upstairs. SO I put an adjustable honeywell fan controller. I had it set at 120 on and I think 100 off. It worked great. After the first fire yesterday I noticed this thing would cut the fans off way to early. So todays fire will be a true test. I have the therm-disc set at 120 on 100 off. It goes down 90. I also have the fan on speed 3. I may need to adjust that? I think the insulation and thermodisc will make a big difference. If further heat transfer is needed. I am thinking of taking an old car radiator and sectioning it and brazing/hotpot epoxying them to the heat exchanger to help with heat transfer.


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## maple1

Since insurance was mentioned above - aside from the simple things like clearance distances per manual, I would expect an insurance company would have even bigger issues with modifications made to the appliance.

That's not pointed at the latest posts, but just a mention as there is a bit of it off & on all through the thread. Also not saying bad or good either way - I just would hate like heck to see someone ending up later very sorry they did something without that consideration. And it likely wouldn't come down to the fact whether whatever you did actually caused a problem or not - but rather, the perception of the insurance company and them looking for any way out of a claim.


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## JRHAWK9

crewchief264 said:


> The clearance to combustibles is within acceptable limits.




If the area circled in red has 11" of clearance, then I've been seriously understating the size of my you know what!  lol  How it was explained to me by the chimney guy, it doesn't matter if you place a piece of metal in between the furnace and that wood stud/wood pile, it still needs to have the correct CTC for it to be considered "up to code".


----------



## brenndatomu

crewchief264 said:


> My old hot blast had the same amount clearance. I understand the risks involved with a wood furnace. The clearance to combustibles is within acceptable limits. I appreciate the heads up. My wood pile is close to the wood furnace, however a bit of being and carful and I have never had a problem.


Boy, that would sure make me nervous loadin that thing up and leavin for work in the morning with my family still sleeping above...that and I have often had Locust (and others) give me a shower of sparks when I open the door to reload...my respect/paranoia of fire would make me late for work pullin firewatch on that wood pile after a Locust fireworks show.
As for your fan problem, sound like you need more static pressure...have you checked it? Have a meter? Want one? 
Even with the SP at spec, the fan cycling is exactly why I, and @3fordasho   (and I think @DoubleB now too)  have installed a speed controller on the blower to limit this cycling to a minimum...and kinda optimizes heat transfer too since it works off of the supply duct temp


----------



## STIHLY DAN

JRHAWK9 said:


> If the area circled in red has 11" of clearance, then I've been seriously understating the size of my you know what!  lol  How it was explained to me by the chimney guy, it doesn't matter if you place a piece of metal in between the furnace and that wood stud/wood pile, it still needs to have the correct CTC for it to be considered "up to code".
> 
> View attachment 187736



The header to the supplies looks awful close too... Power outage in the middle of the night on cruise control I bet would get those pipes smoken hot. Also its not a 1 time event, it could be years of heat bringing down the flammability temp to of the wood, then woosh.  I am not criticizing the install or you, just pointing out things that others may want to learn from. Lots of new burners on here every year.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> I'd be willing to bet the replacement one that @Digger79  got from SBI will be just fine...


It is. Currently kicking butt. It runs much cooler. Fan comes on much sooner, Over heat shut off comes on before flu hits 800. Its a fine stove. they tuned it in well. Very happy with it and SBI. Blows some cooler air since fan comes on so early and stays on so long however in the end its pushing more heat in the house that wood just dissipate around the stove.


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## Digger79

I sold my old Tundra for 500$!


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## Teglovinvtec

I need some serious help installed my tundra a week ago. Have barometric damper on it. Dwyer manometer draft -.05 or so. I'm getting great heat 10 hour burn times. Burning ash/maple 2 years old. Seasoned very dry. My house is only 1200sq feet super warm. My flue temps are very low like 150-200 off inferred I'm getting moisture and water out of my clean out door. The chimney is 16x16 block with 8in clay flue built 2 weeks ago by a masonry contractor.  Roughly 25ft high with cap. I don't know what's goin on the clean out is about 18in from where flue enters. Ductwork is now tied in that was just for first burn with door open please help


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## Guy988G

I know my first few fires I had a lot of moisture dripping back out of my chimney. I'm not an expert on block but see In as it's new, could it just be moisture coming out of the block and running down? Maybe some moisture in the firebricks in the stove?

Sent from my VS880PP using Tapatalk


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## Teglovinvtec

I was kinda thinking because it's only been a couple burns. What are ur flue temps like with the tundra guys. I looked in the barametric damper and there's some creosote


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## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> View attachment 187782
> View attachment 187780
> View attachment 187781
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need some serious help installed my tundra a week ago. Have barometric damper on it. Dwyer manometer draft -.05 or so. I'm getting great heat 10 hour burn times. Burning ash/maple 2 years old. Seasoned very dry. My house is only 1200sq feet super warm. My flue temps are very low like 150-200 off inferred I'm getting moisture and water out of my clean out door. The chimney is 16x16 block with 8in clay flue built 2 weeks ago by a masonry contractor.  Roughly 25ft high with cap. I don't know what's goin on the clean out is about 18in from where flue enters. Ductwork is now tied in that was just for first burn with door open please help


Welcome T!
Well, it could be several things
1. Just the moisture being driven out of everything
2. Wet wood
3. But most likely, that flue is too big and too much of a "heat sink" and the flue gasses are condensating. As you have seen Tundra doesn't waste much heat up the chimney so there isn't any "extra" there to keep the flue above 212* (BTW, how are you measuring the flue temp...external?)
I would bet you'll need a insulated liner installed in the chimney.
It could be a combination of all 3 too...also, that is the problem with baros...they cool the flue gasses even more


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## laynes69

We had the same issue with condensation, it was solved with a liner. Like mentioned, the flue temps run low.


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## Teglovinvtec

Measuring flu temps off of magnetic thermometer and off a digital inferred on out side of stove pipe. 

Did the liner the one guy put in was it insulated? 

I'm going to remove chimney cap to see if it makes this any better


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## DoubleB

I'm only one datapoint; I have a clay chimney like yours, with a non-insulated 6" diameter stainless liner.  No condensation issues.  

Why are you removing the chimney cap?  (How do you think that might help?)  I don't think that will make any difference for condensation, although might be a safety problem and let rain in (making your problem worse).


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## STIHLY DAN

Definitely needs a 6 in liner..preferably insulated but not necessary.  Also whats up with that flue pipe? That 180* swing absolutely hurts your draft. Where is your baro? Cant see it in the photo. If I were you I would turn your furnace 90* install the baro closer to the chimney, and run a liner down the chimney. Just my 2 cents,


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## Teglovinvtec

Baro is on its blocked by ductwork. Draft is always between -.04-.06 if it wasn't I would have moved it 

Pulled cap it helped but it's not a fix while I was up there to flue gas was cold so yes I think it's time for a liner chimney is under 30ft 

As far as a liner any recommendations on where to by does it have to be insulated also are u able to clean them


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## brenndatomu

I don't know that there is a "bad" chimney liner out there...some are more heavy duty than others...but HD is not a necessity. If I had to choose between a bare HD liner, and a regular duty liner with insulation, I'd go with insulation everytime. They all have to meet the same standards. Main thing is too stay away from the 2 ply liners...they have had issues with those.

As far as where to buy, Chimney liner Depot or Rockford are sponsors here...but there are _a ton_ of different places to get 'em. They're not even very expensive really.

Oh, and you may be a little tight getting a 6" liner with 1/2" insulation wrap down your 8" flue...but you can get 1/4" insulation wrap too, that would be better than having none...but even a liner with no insulation will be a lot better than what you have now.
Just to give you a little comparison, your 8x8" flue (I assume its square) is 64 sq inches...a 6" round liner is only28 sq inches, that's a whole lot less area to keep warm...and the velocity through the flue will be much higher, which means it will be much hotter when it hits the top


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## Teglovinvtec

Recommend smooth or ridge inside do u clean them with the same style chimney brush as the metal or clay brushes?


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## Teglovinvtec

yes 8x8 square flu


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## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> Recommend smooth or ridge inside do u clean them with the same style chimney brush as the metal or clay brushes?


Smooth bore liners are a gimmick. The regular ones actually stay just as clean or cleaner. The liner expands and contracts with heating/cooling and the ridges knock off dry soot/creosote...kinda self cleaning.
I like a Sooteater for cleaning...super easy to use and does great job as long as there is not gooey creosote buildup, of course a regular chimney brush won't clean that off either. Sooteater can be had $50 or less many/most places (Lowes. Menards, Amazon, Ebay, etc etc)


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## maple1

Teglovinvtec said:


> Recommend smooth or ridge inside do u clean them with the same style chimney brush as the metal or clay brushes?



I wouldn't use wire on stainless - always used a poly brush on my stainless chimney.


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## crewchief264

STIHLY DAN said:


> The header to the supplies looks awful close too... Power outage in the middle of the night on cruise control I bet would get those pipes smoken hot. Also its not a 1 time event, it could be years of heat bringing down the flammability temp to of the wood, then woosh.  I am not criticizing the install or you, just pointing out things that others may want to learn from. Lots of new burners on here every year.




Yea... I have been keeping a close eye on things.. when the hot blast was in there the front pipe actually almost touched the upper 2x4. obviously the tundra set up is a totally different.. I appreciate the advice and comments.. I unfortunately have space limitation.. I had 8 inches of side clearance on either side with the hot blast which also wasn't ideal. However, nothing ever got hot/warm, and I agree a power outage would be an issue. Luckily there is never a fire when no one is home.. and I have a back up generator as well. I am removing the wood stud and the cedar this weekend. and putting a non combustable material in. As for the clearance issue with the central furnace I should have 8-11 inches of clearance thats obivously not possible. So after some reading I am installing 2000 degree 1/4 inch insulation in the Tundra  Furnace. Ill  get some data on that as to the before and after numbers. I am also going to place a sheet metal plate between the two furnaces with an air gap on either side to help with radiant heat. Other than that to each there own, and when you do this stuff its all on you and you assume all the risk. I will say this so far this furnace runs much cooler externally than my modified hotblast. The Tundra is much more effedcient  and much easier to control. But the hotblast put out more heat, of course its firebox is about twice as big too! That said I appreciate all the advice and all the great ideas Thanks.

Here are my settings:
I hooked up my draft meter.. I am pulling between .06-.08... I do not have a damper control.. Also I double checked all my controller connections and I have everything working just like it should....so heres my numbers:

Low alarm 150 and offsets of 100. and my SV is 475. 

Heres how I have been running it... I set my timer to about 30 minutes (Cold Start) load it up currently 11-14% chinese elm. light it up and let it go. It will hit the high temp but then reopen... as long as the timer or thermostat is still on. by then I am getting a face temp of about 450-550... once the timer shuts the damper its in cruise no touch mode... I am getting 100-120 duct temps upstairs and its heating the house up to 77-79 degrees in a matter of an hour or two... also its only getting down to about 28-30 degrees right now... I have the fan set on speed 2 and my thermo disc set at 110. Seems to be working pretty well. not sure that I am gonna make the 90-100 dollar variable speed fan control investment at this time.


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## STIHLY DAN

.06 to .08 is kind of a large swing, is your bd level. or is it set at .08? there is an adjustment on the face of the bd. you should be able to dial it in nice and tight. 
Personally, I never like hitting the high limit on anything, maybe the timer could be dialed back a bit to still get your desired performance but not bounce of the high limit.


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## Teglovinvtec

Guys so it's confirmed about the liner what do I do about a clean out I'm not gonna be able to use my existing clean out door with liner and a tee will not mske it down there


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## crewchief264

STIHLY DAN said:


> .06 to .08 is kind of a large swing, is your bd level. or is it set at .08? there is an adjustment on the face of the bd. you should be able to dial it in nice and tight.
> Personally, I never like hitting the high limit on anything, maybe the timer could be dialed back a bit to still get your desired performance but not bounce of the high limit.



I don't have a bd installed I have one but haven't put it on.... I have a manual damper that if it's wide open I only get .09  I can dial it in by manually adjusting the manual damper... you know the one they say specifically shouldn't be installed... it was previously installed from. My hotblast. Anyways I may install the bd later on as it would make it completely automatic....


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## crewchief264

Ok so if you 3-4 hours and want to insulate you tundra here's the how to:
DEI high temp spray adhesive
Aluminum tape
Cool it 72x48 Thermal blanket can be had on Amazon. It's enough to insulate both sides and top. Cut it in half 36inches and then cut it to 38 inches. Save your left overs for the top. Don't forget to trim away from the damper control rod. I also removed the screws and heat shield before spraying and installing the blanket. I then reinstalled the heat shield and all the screws. I will post my temp differences once I start a fire.

Fire started: here's the data...

Fans kicked on in 8 minutes. I set the timer to 20 minutes. The top of the furnace was warm to the touch just prior to the fans kicking on. I grabbed my IR gun and took these measurements. The outside insulated case is measuring 84-86 degrees fan running on 2. The front face is at 450 degrees damper closed. The uninsulated section in the rear of the furnace is measuring about 114-118 degrees. So the insulation blanket is making a pretty big difference. It heated up pretty darn fast! Oh and draft was about .07. Duct outlet temp is about 120-125.


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## STIHLY DAN

If it gets up to .09 now, wait till it gets cold out with a hot fire. I believe a bd is a must have, good protection too. .09 is 50% more than SBI recommends isn't it.


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## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> Guys so it's confirmed about the liner what do I do about a clean out I'm not gonna be able to use my existing clean out door with liner and a tee will not mske it down there


You have about the same setup as me. The way the tees are made it will fit down any hole the liner will fit into...the snout of the tee is put on via an internal "hose clamp" working through the snout. Some of the liner dealers (Rockford?) have utube vids on it.
As for the cleanout, here's what I did. I bought mine from CLD and I told them what I was doing and they crimped the bottom of the tee so that I could put a section of liner on the bottom of it down to the cleanout door...then they stretched the tee cap so that it would fit over the liner. I kept it up off the cleanout floor the width of two bricks so that's what holds the cap in place. Slide the bricks out, drop the cap off, clean chimney, reinstall cap/bricks, BAM, done!


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## STIHLY DAN

crewchief264 said:


> Ok so if you 3-4 hours and want to insulate you tundra here's the how to:
> DEI high temp spray adhesive
> Aluminum tape
> Cool it 72x48 Thermal blanket can be had on Amazon. It's enough to insulate both sides and top. Cut it in half 36inches and then cut it to 38 inches. Save your left overs for the top. Don't forget to trim away from the damper control rod. I also removed the screws and heat shield before spraying and installing the blanket. I then reinstalled the heat shield and all the screws. I will post my temp differences once I start a fire.
> 
> Fire started: here's the data...
> 
> Fans kicked on in 8 minutes. I set the timer to 20 minutes. The top of the furnace was warm to the touch just prior to the fans kicking on. I grabbed my IR gun and took these measurements. The outside insulated case is measuring 84-86 degrees fan running on 2. The front face is at 450 degrees damper closed. The uninsulated section in the rear of the furnace is measuring about 114-118 degrees. So the insulation blanket is making a pretty big difference. It heated up pretty darn fast! Oh and draft was about .07. Duct outlet temp is about 120-125.



Nice, I bet that will help a lot. My unit came insulated, so they aren't doing it for no reason. They should put these results in the sticky thread thing.


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## Teglovinvtec

Well I was able to fish liner in today what a pain the 6 inch liner did not fit through damn 6 inch round clay to chimney. What a pain but hopefully Tomm I'll have it all tied in. If I still have condensation issues I'll be pissed next step I guess would be insulate outside of chimney and insulate hopefully not or mod stove for hotter temp which I don't wanna do


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## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> Well I was able to fish liner in today what a pain the 6 inch liner did not fit through damn 6 inch round clay to chimney. What a pain but hopefully Tomm I'll have it all tied in. If I still have condensation issues I'll be pissed next step I guess would be insulate outside of chimney and insulate hopefully not or mod stove for hotter temp which I don't wanna do


So you are saying that the snout won't fir through the thimble? What's your plan?


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## Teglovinvtec

I got it through but I had to remove round clay 6inch thimble. It's in concrete so I'll just finish it but leave a way to get in there if I need to do anything with liner. The tee from liner kit would not fit so my clean out will be in stove pipe before exiting chimney using a tee and cap


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## TDD11

Looking for input on how I should tie my furnace into the chimney. 

Would a 90 degree elbow and a 90 degree cleanout be preferred, or how about 2 45 degree angles? I realize the 45's will be better from a flow standpoint, but they won't be as easy to install or remove in order to clean out.


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## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Looking for input on how I should tie my furnace into the chimney.
> 
> Would a 90 degree elbow and a 90 degree cleanout be preferred, or how about 2 45 degree angles? I realize the 45's will be better from a flow standpoint, but they won't be as easy to install or remove in order to clean out.
> View attachment 188145
> View attachment 188146


What are your chimney specs again? Type/diameter/location/etc.


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## TDD11

Its an interior chimney that goes up through the center of the house. 
8x12 clay lined (I know I know!! Lol ),

I don't have a height measurement yet but it goes up through the center of the 2 story house and exits above the peak of the roof.


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## STIHLY DAN

2 45's and a bd.


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## TDD11

I'll go back and check the manual, but is there any reason I can't use double wall pipe?


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## STIHLY DAN

Why would you want to? Single wall is not going to get that hot.


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## DoubleB

@TDD11 ,
FWIW  I have two 45's and this weekend I'm redoing it to two 90's.  It's been a complete PITA to get on/off each spring to clean.  I have plenty of draft with a 37' lined chimney, so I'm not worried about inadequate draft.  Not sure if you have that advantage though.  There also might be an easier way to get it off for cleaning, but I haven't found it yet.

I've seen on here that there are telescoping stove pipes to help in this situation, but I've never seen one or know how well it would work.  Someone smarter on here probably does, though.


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## maple1

I have a cleanout T on the back of my boiler, another on bottom of chimney. Never take any pipe apart, just pop a clean out cover off & I'm there. The baro flapper is another easy access point. So I guess my point is, a cleanout T in place of an elbow can make life a lot easier.


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## TDD11

@STIHLY DAN My thought is that with double wall (or insulating single wall) I can increase my flue temps and get more heat up the chimney. Make up for having an over sized chimney.

@DoubleB That is exactly my concern with two 45's, the cleaning difficulty. I am interested to hear more about your chimney and get an idea of how it compares to mine. So far I am expecting poor results but I might as well try and find out.

@maple1 I was considering putting a cleanout T in place of the elbow also.


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## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> @TDD11 ,
> FWIW  I have two 45's and this weekend I'm redoing it to two 90's.  It's been a complete PITA to get on/off each spring to clean.  I have plenty of draft with a 37' lined chimney, so I'm not worried about inadequate draft.  Not sure if you have that advantage though.  There also might be an easier way to get it off for cleaning, but I haven't found it yet.
> 
> I've seen on here that there are telescoping stove pipes to help in this situation, but I've never seen one or know how well it would work.  Someone smarter on here probably does, though.



What is it such a PITA with 2 45's? Is yours double wall? Just curious, I have that and its pretty easy. I have done my share of PITA ones though. Seems like the short ones tend to be the worst.


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## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> @TDD11 ,
> I've seen on here that there are telescoping stove pipes to help in this situation, but I've never seen one or know how well it would work.  Someone smarter on here probably does, though.



I have two telescoping connections with two 45's on my stove pipe.  It's a piece of cake to remove and put back together.  The pipe is made by ICC/Excel Ultrablack.

http://icc-chimney.com/en/ultrablack

Edit, one of my slip connectors is double (Ultrablack), the other is single (Prime)

http://icc-chimney.com/en/excelprime


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## STIHLY DAN

TDD11 said:


> My thought is that with double wall (or insulating single wall) I can increase my flue temps and get more heat up the chimney. Make up for having an over sized chimney.



So you are not putting in a Bd?


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## brenndatomu

Why not use the 45s and then put a tee in the middle in place of 12" of the pipe too? And in the unlikely event that you have enough draft to need a baro...you can just remove the tee cap and pop a baro in. Double wall will help a bit to keep chimney temps up, but it will add a lot of cost! I'd just wrap singlewall with some ceramic insulation blanket (chimney liner insulation) and call it good.


DoubleB said:


> there are telescoping stove pipes to help in this situation, but I've never seen one or know how well it would work


The stove guys use 'em all the time...sounds like they work out pretty well unless you have wet wood and creosote in you flue...they glue themselves together then!


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## DoubleB

Thanks for the telescoping info, @JRHAWK9 and @brenndatomu .

@TDD11 ,
You can kind of see my (former) chimney pipe in post#22 back on page 1.  Straight out the rear of the furnace, slant up and to the right, then slant hard right into the thimble.

Actually I was planning on doing what @maple1 has with a cleanout tee at the bottom of my first elbow, but then I didn't because I figured I'd still want to take it apart to clean the upper elbow.  Plus, I already had the parts to just make 90 elbows, but I didn't have a tee or a cap.  Plus, I would have a few crimped ends pointing the wrong direction.  I know, nothing hard to solve, but I take the chimney connector off anyways in the spring so I can cap the chimney inside and avoid sucking humid air into the house in the summer.  And, if the 90 elbows get annoying to take off, I can always try a cleanout tee later.



STIHLY DAN said:


> What is it such a PITA with 2 45's? Is yours double wall? Just curious, I have that and its pretty easy. I have done my share of PITA ones though. Seems like the short ones tend to be the worst.



Mine isn't too short, so at least that's helpful.  But I just have a hard time twisting the elbows enough to make the overall length 1.5" shorter so I can pull it out of the crimped end.  I've disassembled/assembled a few times now and I haven't gotten any better at it.  Mine is just single wall. 

You have a lot more experience than I do for sure--have you noticed any difference between the 45 deg config in post 1758 (straight back, then slant up, then straight back, everything is in the same plane) and my config (straight back, slant up/right, then slant straight right)?  Maybe one is easier or harder if it's all in the same plane?  Dunno.


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## Gibbo1979

Hey all, got the Tundra installed this week. Thanks for all the helpful posts! This thing def has a learning curve to it. Puts out great heat for long amounts of time with less wood.Sbi sent me the firebrick mod which was nice, would have never known about it if it weren't for this blog. Averaging about 40 in central Ohio so I haven't cranked her up yet. Ran the wife and kids out of the house with fumes from paint on the first burn, not allowed to go full bore until they get away for a couple hours. Have about 6' of single wall before it hits my chimney, then a 7" ss liner inside 10x10 clay for about 25'. No bd, have a manual damper just in case. Run her up to about 450 on the flue with an internal thermometer, 350 on magnetic thermometer on front of heat exchanger before I close the damper on stove. Flue runs at -.10 with stove damper wide open. Flue drops to 150 degrees, heat exchanger 200 and -.03 on the manometer with stove damper closed. Flames don't last more than 30 mins after damper is closed. Burning two year old ash with about 15% moisture. 5 logs fill up the firebox, might need to be split smaller. Also having an issue with condensation dripping from pipe, only 2 days into burning. Had good amount of coals after 12 hrs which was nice. What's your thoughts?


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## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> It is. Currently kicking butt. It runs much cooler. Fan comes on much sooner, Over heat shut off comes on before flu hits 800. Its a fine stove. they tuned it in well. Very happy with it and SBI. Blows some cooler air since fan comes on so early and stays on so long however in the end its pushing more heat in the house that wood just dissipate around the stove.


The low temp fan trigger is best for me as my stove is in the garage. I'd rather push the mild air into the house when stove is only warm rather than just waist it. The garage doesn't need anymore heat than the stove already puts off. To me Im getting every ounce of heat blown into the house even if the air is not hot.


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## Digger79

Gibbo1979 said:


> Hey all, got the Tundra installed this week. Thanks for all the helpful posts! This thing def has a learning curve to it. Puts out great heat for long amounts of time with less wood.Sbi sent me the firebrick mod which was nice, would have never known about it if it weren't for this blog. Averaging about 40 in central Ohio so I haven't cranked her up yet. Ran the wife and kids out of the house with fumes from paint on the first burn, not allowed to go full bore until they get away for a couple hours. Have about 6' of single wall before it hits my chimney, then a 7" ss liner inside 10x10 clay for about 25'. No bd, have a manual damper just in case. Run her up to about 450 on the flue with an internal thermometer, 350 on magnetic thermometer on front of heat exchanger before I close the damper on stove. Flue runs at -.10 with stove damper wide open. Flue drops to 150 degrees, heat exchanger 200 and -.03 on the manometer with stove damper closed. Flames don't last more than 30 mins after damper is closed. Burning two year old ash with about 15% moisture. 5 logs fill up the firebox, might need to be split smaller. Also having an issue with condensation dripping from pipe, only 2 days into burning. Had good amount of coals after 12 hrs which was nice. What's your thoughts?


hmm. I had issues with creosote oils dripping too but was due to damper door controller not being dialed in properly. A temp controller making sure the main air intake opens if flu gets below 300 deg should stop the oils dripping. Sounds like you got the rest correct. The manual damper is no good I'd take that out you don't need it and it causes blockage even if wide open. A manual damper can certainly cause excessive creosote. The flu needs to get up around 600-700 before the damper should be closed. My controller opens and closes the damper roughly 3 times allowing the flu temps to eventual stabilize around 450 then after 3 cycles it holds temp and re burns for hours. It could be you are not letting the fire get hot enough before damper is closing. that def causes creosote problems. With the current models due to the over heat snap switch you can put the stove on automatic leaving damper bypass open and the high limit switch will shut it but you won't have control over keeping it shut so the temp controller is best. I hope that made sense I rambled it out pretty quick. Gotta go to work. bye


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> hmm. I had issues with creosote oils dripping too but was due to damper door controller not being dialed in properly. A temp controller making sure the main air intake opens if flu gets below 300 deg should stop the oils dripping. Sounds like you got the rest correct. The manual damper is no good I'd take that out you don't need it and it causes blockage even if wide open. A manual damper can certainly cause excessive creosote. The flu needs to get up around 600-700 before the damper should be closed. My controller opens and closes the damper roughly 3 times allowing the flu temps to eventual stabilize around 450 then after 3 cycles it holds temp and re burns for hours. It could be you are not letting the fire get hot enough before damper is closing. that def causes creosote problems. With the current models due to the over heat snap switch you can put the stove on automatic leaving damper bypass open and the high limit switch will shut it but you won't have control over keeping it shut so the temp controller is best. I hope that made sense I rambled it out pretty quick. Gotta go to work. bye


I do have a baro damper installed but it only comes into play when temps outside get down in the teens, single digits or negative numbers. During negative temps if I did not have the baro damper in their the flu does over draft. Anything over -.09 or -.10 is over draft and best to keep draft around -.06 to -.08 

The baro damper set properly will prevent over drafting and not block the flu like a manual damper.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> I do have a baro damper installed but it only comes into play when temps outside get down in the teens, single digits or negative numbers. During negative temps if I did not have the baro damper in their the flu does over draft. Anything over -.09 or -.10 is over draft and best to keep draft around -.06 to -.08
> 
> The baro damper set properly will prevent over drafting and not block the flu like a manual damper.


ya know incase the high limit switch fails. A baro damper is a mechanical device that can save your ass in a failure.


----------



## DoubleB

Gibbo1979 said:


> Have about 6' of single wall before it hits my chimney, then a 7" ss liner inside 10x10 clay for about 25'. No bd, have a manual damper just in case. Run her up to about 450 on the flue with an internal thermometer, 350 on magnetic thermometer on front of heat exchanger before I close the damper on stove. Flue runs at -.10 with stove damper wide open. Flue drops to 150 degrees, heat exchanger 200 and -.03 on the manometer with stove damper closed. Flames don't last more than 30 mins after damper is closed.



I'd bet your flames are going out because you only have -.03 draft.  A 7" liner is bigger than called for, which reduces draft.  25' is a nice height, but maybe not enough if you have too big of a chimney.  40F isn't all that cold, either, which reduces draft. You could go ahead and replace the liner with a 6", but before that expense I'd wait for it to get cold and windy and see if your draft improves.  If so, you might also find your condensation problem reduces or goes away.  If so, that fairly confirms the 7" liner as the problem.  Even if your condensation does not go away, then that probably points to your 7" liner.

Also, do you have too many elbows in your 6" chimney connector?

When you say the flue is 150 and the heat exchanger is 200, where are you measuring that 200F?


----------



## brenndatomu

Gibbo1979 said:


> Flue runs at -.10 with stove damper wide open


WAAAY too high!


Gibbo1979 said:


> Ran the wife and kids out of the house with fumes from paint on the first burn, not allowed to go full bore until they get away for a couple hours


The worst of it is already over with now


Gibbo1979 said:


> Flue drops to 150 degrees, heat exchanger 200 and -.03 on the manometer with stove damper closed. Flames don't last more than 30 mins after damper is closed.


Sounds awful low...depending where and how you are measuring those temps...I run ~3-350 internal pipe temp ~18" from the stove once I'm in "cruise" mode on a new load. The flames dying down is indicative of your chimney getting too cold and losing the draft (-.03" is too low 1/2 hr into the burn) sound like some stove pipe/chimney mods may be in order...but as @DoubleB  said, hafta wait n see what happens when the outdoor temp drops a lil more. @Digger79  had the same issue with his draft/chimney originally...insulated 6" fixed it.


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## TDD11

Updated my model a little. If I raise the stove a little more, 2 45's and a BD should fit pretty well. I will go with single wall and insulate it. It won't be easy to remove but I will work it out. I know based on all of the advice that I will likely need a 6" liner, but I want to maximize my draft, and run the stove and see what I get for performance. 

For those of you who share a duct system with a gas furnace, what did you do for backdraft dampers? Manual? Controlled? Automatic?

The stove is my primary source of heat. I set my propane furnace to maintain 55F - in case I unexpectedly do not return home for some reason. For that reason, I don't want manual backdraft dampers. I am considering the more expensive automatic type type.


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## Teglovinvtec

Guys where can I get a internal thermometer


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Gibbo1979 said:


> Hey all, got the Tundra installed this week. Thanks for all the helpful posts! This thing def has a learning curve to it. Puts out great heat for long amounts of time with less wood.Sbi sent me the firebrick mod which was nice, would have never known about it if it weren't for this blog. Averaging about 40 in central Ohio so I haven't cranked her up yet. Ran the wife and kids out of the house with fumes from paint on the first burn, not allowed to go full bore until they get away for a couple hours. Have about 6' of single wall before it hits my chimney, then a 7" ss liner inside 10x10 clay for about 25'. No bd, have a manual damper just in case. Run her up to about 450 on the flue with an internal thermometer, 350 on magnetic thermometer on front of heat exchanger before I close the damper on stove. Flue runs at -.10 with stove damper wide open. Flue drops to 150 degrees, heat exchanger 200 and -.03 on the manometer with stove damper closed. Flames don't last more than 30 mins after damper is closed. Burning two year old ash with about 15% moisture. 5 logs fill up the firebox, might need to be split smaller. Also having an issue with condensation dripping from pipe, only 2 days into burning. Had good amount of coals after 12 hrs which was nice. What's your thoughts?



I winter 5 logs might work, now you will need to split them at least in 1/2 if not 1/3.


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## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> For those of you who share a duct system with a gas furnace, what did you do for backdraft dampers? Manual? Controlled? Automatic?
> 
> The stove is my primary source of heat. I set my propane furnace to maintain 55F - in case I unexpectedly do not return home for some reason. For that reason, I don't want manual backdraft dampers. I am considering the more expensive automatic type type.



My wood furnace shares the supply ducts with my LP furnace.  It does not share the return ducts with my LP furnace.  I use an open staircase in the middle of the house for return air.  I have a gravity damper in the plenum of my LP furnace to protect back flow though the LP furnace.  I also have a spring open/powered closed electric damper in the wood furnace supply duct between the wood furnace plenum and main house supply duct.  I have it wired in such a way the powered damper will remain open in all situations except for when the LP blower is the only one running (in summer and winter), then it will close to prevent back feeding the wood furnace.  In all other situations it remains open.  I needed it to remain open with no power in case of a power outage.  This allows me to run both the LP blower and wood furnace blower at the same time if I ever need to...or at the end of a burn cycle on a very cold morning when the wood furnace blower is cycling and the LP thermostat calls for heat.  Having the ability to do this allows me to keep the LP thermostat set at whatever temp I want and not have to worry as both furnaces can run in harmony with each other.


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## JRHAWK9

Teglovinvtec said:


> Guys where can I get a internal thermometer



I use a Bacharach Tempoint to monitor my flue temps.  I have in placed right after the collar at the back of the furnace.  It's the hottest the flue gases will be.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DSV93M4/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## Digger79

crewchief264 said:


> Ok so if you 3-4 hours and want to insulate you tundra here's the how to:
> DEI high temp spray adhesive
> Aluminum tape
> Cool it 72x48 Thermal blanket can be had on Amazon. It's enough to insulate both sides and top. Cut it in half 36inches and then cut it to 38 inches. Save your left overs for the top. Don't forget to trim away from the damper control rod. I also removed the screws and heat shield before spraying and installing the blanket. I then reinstalled the heat shield and all the screws. I will post my temp differences once I start a fire.
> 
> Fire started: here's the data...
> 
> Fans kicked on in 8 minutes. I set the timer to 20 minutes. The top of the furnace was warm to the touch just prior to the fans kicking on. I grabbed my IR gun and took these measurements. The outside insulated case is measuring 84-86 degrees fan running on 2. The front face is at 450 degrees damper closed. The uninsulated section in the rear of the furnace is measuring about 114-118 degrees. So the insulation blanket is making a pretty big difference. It heated up pretty darn fast! Oh and draft was about .07. Duct outlet temp is about 120-125.


I like this idea.. messed around with rock wool layers simply on top of the plenum before myself.. Curious about what you have done here. How high of heat can that insulation take as well the cellophane foil on the surface of it? that heat exchanger can get pretty damn hot and I'd think any thermal blanketing not rated up to 1200 deg or better could either melt of simply not be efficient. Standard insulation looses its insulating properties when over heated. Just curious about the heat capacity of the thermal blanket you are using. Id be nervous with anything but rock wool inside that stove.


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## maple1

I think I would be nervous about any insulating mods. Just seem that if it doesn't have insulation, it wasn't designed to be run with it which might set up for future trouble with some things getting too hot from no air wash or being able to radiate, etc..


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## brenndatomu

The cabinet on the Caddy line is insulated...very similar (but not _identical_) unit, but yeah...you are always assuming some risk when doing any mod...and some people just plain shouldn't do mods at all...this *is* fire "inside your home" that we are playing with after all...
OK, that is the end of my *P*ublic *S*ervice *A*nnouncement


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## Digger79

Id say likely it can be done safely if your experienced enough to pay attention to all the temps, snap switches and be ready to make changes to the snap switches and such. I was just curious if high temp insulation like rock wool was used in the caddy. I feel basic insulation with cellophane would likely melt above that heat exchanger.


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## Digger79

BTW Brenndtomu my false reading wound up being a cheap probe. nothing wrong with the my pin controller. I found out I wound up with a 500 deg max temp probe and promptly ruined it to where it barely worked anymore at all. lol. Sooo being one that hates to order stuff of the web, and very impatient I ran to menards an bought a multimeter that measures temperature as well with a probe up to 1500 deg. Incredibly accurate. I wound up wiring the probe (k) type that plugged in to the multimeter to the mypin and BAM! Dead on MyPin readings. So for some just looking for a good way to get accurate flu temps w out order the wrong probe like I did.. Multimeter from Menards. I am going to try and order another J type probe pre wired like the one that came with the mypin this winter though.


----------



## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> If it gets up to .09 now, wait till it gets cold out with a hot fire. I believe a bd is a must have, good protection too. .09 is 50% more than SBI recommends isn't it.


Yeah BD is a good idea. Someone on here tried to tell me a 15' chimney wouldn't need a baro but when it hits teens and single digits the baro and desired draft readings proved them dead wrong. I have outstanding draft likely due to the black single wall connector being basically 1 45, the baro damper and thats it. about 18-20 inches right into the 6" SS insulated chimney. It really sucks


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Yeah BD is a good idea. Someone on here tried to tell me a 15' chimney wouldn't need a baro but when it hits teens and single digits the baro and desired draft readings proved them dead wrong. I have outstanding draft likely due to the black single wall connector being basically 1 45, the baro damper and thats it. about 18-20 inches right into the 6" SS insulated chimney. It really sucks


not to mention when I load a brush fire of locust and hickory to get fast heat my draft can take off and over draft so the baro helps there too.


----------



## DoubleB

maple1 said:


> I think I would be nervous about any insulating mods.



I agree.  1/4" insulation leaves 3/16" max for airflow, significantly less than stock, especially if things sag over time.  I don't know if it's a problem, but I don't know it's ok, either.  I've never had a power outage with mine, but if/when it happens I want all the passive heat removal I can get.

The picture in post 1751 has insulation covering the overtemp and fan snap discs, which would cause a major problem if not corrected.  

Most important to me is that I'd be surprised if there's anything to gain from it.  The furnace sides are about room temperature anyways so insulation won't help that.  The top gets warm and loses some heat, but it's a much smaller area than all the ductwork most of us have exposed.  If I really wanted to do something, it's probably safer and easier and more effective to insulate some of the ductwork.

I applaud the intent, not trying to bash anything, just giving more food for thought.


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## STIHLY DAN

I will put money on the fact of no insulation is just a cost savings measure. There is a reason that a caddy costs a lot more than a tundra even though they are basically the same. This whole line was designed for affordability.


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## DoubleB

I'm sure you're right on the cost savings.  Still, I ran the math that it only takes the first 1 foot of 8" round ducts (x2) coming off the top of our Tundras to equal the same sq footage as the entire top of the Tundra.  We have far more ductwork surface than furnace top surface losing heat, so there's far more and simpler opportunity to save heat by insulating ducts than inside the furnace.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> I'm sure you're right on the cost savings.  Still, I ran the math that it only takes the first 1 foot of 8" round ducts (x2) coming off the top of our Tundras to equal the same sq footage as the entire top of the Tundra.  We have far more ductwork surface than furnace top surface losing heat, so there's far more and simpler opportunity to save heat by insulating ducts than inside the furnace.



Did he insulate the top? I dont think that would help much, also doesn't the new tundra have a plenum instead of the round outlets. The 4 sides insulated should help a good deal.


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## TDD11

Ok I have my stove installed. I am planning to build one of the temperature controllers like you guys have documented. For now I am using the factory design. 

I lit my first fire this evening and am babysitting it. I have a few basement windows open and am ventilating the basement just to reduce the fumes. I have not plumbed the stove into my duct system as I didn't want to stink up the house. 

About half an hour into the burn, with the blower running, there were 2-3 small embers and even some particles of ash that blew out of the ducts. I haven't seen anthing for the last hour but still. This is obviously a huge concern and fire hazard. I have been watching closely and have not seen anything else blow out. 

What do you guys think? I'm wondering if from it being a display model, if there was some debris that got into the stove and burnt/blew out but I don't want to speculate.


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## brenndatomu

If it was a display model then it likely needs the ash pan mod done. This was the first issue they had with these things. SBI will send you one for free if it still needs it...and it is pretty easy to put in.
As you said, it could have been accumulated dust bunnys that were already in there too. Since you have not hooked up the ducts yet, then it would be real easy to remove the top and side panels to inspect all the welds...mine had an issue and I know of 1 or 2 others that had missing and/or incorrect welds. Use a bright light inside and outside the HEs to look it over carefully.


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## STIHLY DAN

STIHLY DAN said:


> Wow, that is a ton of work for a "volunteer" Someone is very passionate about these units. The only suggestion I can offer is to maybe bring up in the 1st 5, The ash pan issues on the 1st models. This is a life and death issue with these units and as far as we know SBI has not reached out to the owners of the deadly design flaw. Now they are selling display models that may well be the same death traps as the original. Maybe just a warning in the beginning about the deadly start of the Tundra.




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## TDD11

I recall now the mention of the ash pan issues. Can someone elaborate what the fix is? I had contacted SBI and requested any and all updates or revisions. All they sent was the fire brick. 

There is also updated electrical components and locations, correct? I wanted to bring this thing up to date


----------



## Digger79

TDD11 said:


> Ok I have my stove installed. I am planning to build one of the temperature controllers like you guys have documented. For now I am using the factory design.
> 
> I lit my first fire this evening and am babysitting it. I have a few basement windows open and am ventilating the basement just to reduce the fumes. I have not plumbed the stove into my duct system as I didn't want to stink up the house.
> 
> About half an hour into the burn, with the blower running, there were 2-3 small embers and even some particles of ash that blew out of the ducts. I haven't seen anthing for the last hour but still. This is obviously a huge concern and fire hazard. I have been watching closely and have not seen anything else blow out.
> 
> What do you guys think? I'm wondering if from it being a display model, if there was some debris that got into the stove and burnt/blew out but I don't want to speculate.


Im guessing so don't take this as a professional opinion. lol.. I doubt a hot ash stayed lit and pulled thru the dust pan and came out the hot air duct. Yes the old models sucked in some air but thru a fine crack packed with ash.. I ran my first model with the ash pan sucking dust and from what I could see it basically plugged itself with ash lol and quit drawing. Anyhow Im with y'all on the debris in the hot air or plenum top, loose chafe inside.. did you get all the cardboard out? lol. likely small pieces/scraps of paper, dust, lint or cardboard Id think could be in the plenum as two holes are always open. I think the ash pan problem was maybe overrated cause I had it and no problems really from it. I have a latest model now.


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## TDD11

@Digger79  I just thought it was more likely that something from the fire box made it out and was glowing red, rather than a dust bunny getting red hot. Regardless, I was up most of the night and slept on the couch near the stove with a few windows open. 

Like you guys, I have no intention of using the ash pan at all. I took the wing nuts off and opened it up this morning, there was dust but that's it. 

Wasn't there some changes made in regards to the fan control? I thought I recalled where they moved the location of the fan control switch, and also maybe the temperatures?


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## brenndatomu

The ash pan update is basically a steel box that fits snugly inside the existing  ash pan area, and then they give you a new slightly smaller ash pan. I have the update for mine that has never been installed...no issues here. If they don't want to send you one then you can have mine for the cost of shipping.
As far as the fan control/limit switches, they moved them up top from the controls box in the rear. They just work "better" up top...nothing unsafe about it...I think it was done partially in response to the cracking issue. They had been sending people the update if you ask for it.
Going back to the ash/hot coal/spark issue, is it possible that you bumped the top of the ash dump plug when loading or raking coals and it unseated it enough to dump a hot one in the pan? That can cause issues too...make sure that plug stays seated or it can cause an air leak = fire too hot/runaway firebox. I have meant to cut the top of the ash dump plug handle off of mine for a long time now, but I keep forgetting when the firebox is cold. I guess it really doesn't matter much, I keep a couple inches of ash in the firebox all the time anyways, never even see the plug very often. I guess that is it, out of sight/ out of mind


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Guys I added the timer honestly the best thing I could have done.


----------



## TDD11

@brenndatomu I don't think I bumped it. It was my first load of firewood and the box hadn't been touched or disturbed. 

I don't plan to use the ash pan either, so I am going to look into plugging that hole.


----------



## brenndatomu

Guy988G said:


> Well update on the crack in my heatmax. I herd back from them today.
> Have to take three pics of the inside of the firebox.
> Take pics of the install with measurements.
> Fill out a three page inspection packet.
> And more pics of the crack and area surrounding it.
> And proof of purchase even though I have sent it to them once already when I found that they wired the entire furnace backwards.
> 
> 
> Sent from my VS880PP using Tapatalk


Any news here?


----------



## Guy988G

Well not much at this point. Their saying they have to have proff of purchase....which has magically disapeared. As far as all the changes to the smoke pipe and chimney well you all hit the nail on the head. Stove could suck start a Harley now. Only running small fires as I havnt yet installed a baro.


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## DoubleB

Guy988G said:


> Their saying they have to have proff of purchase....which has magically disapeared.



Where did you buy it?  About a month after I bought mine from Menards, I hadn't touched it or registered it or done anything, and SBI contacted me out of the blue to say they had a faulty snap disc and sent me a new one.  They already had all of the proof of purchase they needed.  I'd press back and see what they actually need from you, and what the store where your purchased has on file.


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## Guy988G

I got it from family farm and home in 2014. They are being difficult and saying they can't find something that far back so I'm bickering with them all.


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## Guy988G

And I also got the new snap disk. And had a two day phone chat with one of their techs trying to make the thing work in the first place. Found it to be wired completely backwards.


----------



## MNman

ok you all have me scared here...yes im new and i got my heatmax this fall along with an external thermostat (which i love).

all this talk about cracks and stuff has me all worried now. did i make a mistake getting this product? i can always go back to my upright compressor tank converted into a fireplace. i never had a fear of cracks in that beast....

i do have one question tho which has nothing to do with cracks. i have a lot of smoke coming out of the door when i throw wood in even when i have the damper open. my chimney pipe comes out about a foot and then i have a 90 and goes straight up through the roof. should i go with two 45's instead?


----------



## Guy988G

I had a lot of that issue before I redid my smoke pipe set up. From what I have learned here is that any horizontal is bad. But as far as smoke out the door, these guys say get a hot fire going and don't dink,with it. And it's true, but if I have to mess with mine before it's ready, I will crack the door a little and wait for it to get going nice then slowly open the door. It usually works as long as your quick about doing what you need to.


----------



## DoubleB

Welcome aboard, @MNman !

As for cracks, you've already used it so I doubt you'll get your money back unless you get cracking, so you might as well keep using it.  I'd keep an eye out for cracks (might need a flashlight).  If you find them, then cross that bridge when you get there, hopefully you can get a refund.  If you're up to it, add over-temperature control as has been described in this thread.  See the link in my signature to help find those details.

As for smoke, how tall is your chimney, what is it made of, and how cold and windy was it when you were getting smoke?  If your chimney is too short, too large a diameter, unlined, and warm and calm outside, the chances of smoke in the house are greater.  One thing I found is when I put a large chunk in the firebox, the same volume of smoke has to go somewhere.  I try not to put a chunk in faster than the same volume of smoke can go up the chimney, otherwise that smoke comes into my basement.


----------



## brenndatomu

MNman said:


> ok you all have me scared here...yes im new and i got my heatmax this fall along with an external thermostat (which i love).
> 
> all this talk about cracks and stuff has me all worried now. did i make a mistake getting this product? i can always go back to my upright compressor tank converted into a fireplace. i never had a fear of cracks in that beast....


I dunno, maybe it is just me, but I since I bought mine used, and "pre-cracked", it obviously doesn't bother me much at all. I have not welded the crack(s), although I did drill the tip of the crack to stop it from growing further, it does not affect the operation one bit. I also know that anytime I choose I can grind out and weld it to as good as or better than new. For me I guess it is kinda like owning an older Harley...they leak oil, get used to it. The guys that I ride with say they just like to "mark their spot" 
Would it be preferred that they don't crack, yes. Is it the end of the world if it does, no, not at all. If you go through this thread and follow the proper set up and operation techniques along with some doing  some of the "preventative" things, you likely will not have an issue. I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of these things out there that are fine. @3fordasho  has one that has been run hard (as far as what it heats, not hard as in abused) for 3-4 years now with no problem.

As for the smoke issue, anytime you have smoke rollout, you have either opened the door very quickly, or more likely it is indicative of a marginal chimney system.


----------



## maple1

*As for the smoke issue, anytime you have smoke rollout, you have either opened the door very quickly *, or more likely it is indicative of a marginal chimney system.
*
* Or/and at the wrong time.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> dunno, maybe it is just me, but I since I bought mine used, and "pre-cracked", it obviously doesn't bother me much at all. I have not welded the crack(s), although I did drill the tip of the crack to stop it from growing further, it does not affect the operation one bit.



How do you know Mr., you got yours post cracked. Maybe it ran magically before that...


----------



## Gibbo1979

Sorry guys, still haven't figured out how to post pics. Starting to figure out the tundra. I find that I have to open the damper a 2-3 time after ignition and bring temps back up to get good flames for hours. No condensation either. Maybe my wood is too large or too wet. Anyone else burn ash? Gonna install a bd next warm day also. Still uncertain if I want to install temp controls or not. Not sure I like the idea of the damper opening and closing when I'm not around. My flue temps hang around 150-200 inside temp with a good secondary burn. My heat exchanger access panel hangs around 250-300 on a magnetic thermo. Which tells me the exchange of heat is good within the furnace.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gibbo1979 said:


> Maybe my wood is too large or too wet


Sure sounds like it...they love smaller dry wood...and least some smaller stuff on top to kick things off. 
Thats why I really like the temp controller, if the flue temp drops too far after the controller closes the damper then (like with too wet or too big wood) it will open it back up again until it hits the programmed high temp (as long as the timer or tstat is still calling for heat)


----------



## DoubleB

Gibbo1979 said:


> Not sure I like the idea of the damper opening and closing when I'm not around.



I hear ya.  Just to clarify, the temp controller can be configured only to close the damper if things get too hot.  Like if your thermostat is calling for heat for too long, or if we forget and leave the damper switch to open.  So technically yes, it would close and possibly re-open while you're not around, but it's on the safe side compared to leaving it wide open while you're not around.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Gibbo1979 said:


> Not sure I like the idea of the damper opening and closing when I'm not around.



Why, its the best thing ever in wood burning. I would never go back no auto air feeding.


----------



## brenndatomu

Just FYI for any of you that use the Sooteater to clean your chimney, it works great to clean the heat exchangers on Tundras too


----------



## TDD11

Ordered my Omega temperature controller, box and timer today. I cannot wait!! 2 friends have installed new wood furnaces within the past week, and so far they both think that their Hotblast furnaces are better than the Tundra. I need to do some tuning and get this thing dialed in to show them up. 

Stove is running pretty good so far. I am not seeing quite the results that you guys are, BUT I don't have the electronics installed, let alone the 6" chimney liner. Regardless, with 3 5-6" DRY ash rounds, the house is 75 degrees right now. Really, short burn time and the deposits building on the glass of the door are the issues so far. My chimney was clean, so I will check it after a week or 2 of running. 

I still have to set/adjust my BD, set up the temp controller and install the TC probe and magnehelic gauge.. and most likely the chimney liner. I will post a picture soon of my roof and the entire reasoning why I thought it best to do the installation and see if I could gamble and get by without a liner..... I have a very steep roof pitch. After some of the tuning this week, I will post results and see what you guys think. I think IF I have to line the chimney, I better take advantage of the 25% coupon that Drolet is offering.


----------



## Digger79

MNman said:


> ok you all have me scared here...yes im new and i got my heatmax this fall along with an external thermostat (which i love).
> 
> all this talk about cracks and stuff has me all worried now. did i make a mistake getting this product? i can always go back to my upright compressor tank converted into a fireplace. i never had a fear of cracks in that beast....
> 
> i do have one question tho which has nothing to do with cracks. i have a lot of smoke coming out of the door when i throw wood in even when i have the damper open. my chimney pipe comes out about a foot and then i have a 90 and goes straight up through the roof. should i go with two 45's instead?


Far as cracking goes.. get a probe, temp controller and keep that flu under 800 all the time. You should be fine. You want the damper opening and shutting when you are not around. Other wise you will have creosote and a mess if you leave it closed 100% when gone or a house fire and destroyed furnace if you leave it open 100% when gone. Also look into the firebrick mods.. (line the front door with firebrick). I'll try to upload some pics later. 

Smoke when loading? Well I have found this.. when I have a nice bed of coals that logs will light in seconds of being placed in.. I have learned to get a pile right in front of the stove and load it all in seconds. When we put 1 log on it starts to smoke rt away and the smoke rolls out all around and out the door due to no draft and the heat coming out the door instead of up the flu.. So this works.. as soon as I get the firebox full of wood the smoke immediately stops going out the door opening because its blocked by a full load of wood and starts to draw up the chimney. So I think the key is loading quickly. Prepare your load on the ground in front of the stove, then open slowly and load very fast. Helps me a ton.


----------



## Digger79

crewchief264 said:


> Ok so if you 3-4 hours and want to insulate you tundra here's the how to:
> DEI high temp spray adhesive
> Aluminum tape
> Cool it 72x48 Thermal blanket can be had on Amazon. It's enough to insulate both sides and top. Cut it in half 36inches and then cut it to 38 inches. Save your left overs for the top. Don't forget to trim away from the damper control rod. I also removed the screws and heat shield before spraying and installing the blanket. I then reinstalled the heat shield and all the screws. I will post my temp differences once I start a fire.
> 
> Fire started: here's the data...
> 
> Fans kicked on in 8 minutes. I set the timer to 20 minutes. The top of the furnace was warm to the touch just prior to the fans kicking on. I grabbed my IR gun and took these measurements. The outside insulated case is measuring 84-86 degrees fan running on 2. The front face is at 450 degrees damper closed. The uninsulated section in the rear of the furnace is measuring about 114-118 degrees. So the insulation blanket is making a pretty big difference. It heated up pretty darn fast! Oh and draft was about .07. Duct outlet temp is about 120-125.


Im curious how that insulation is holding up on the top of that plenum. One thing I believe I noticed about the Caddy stoves that have insulted walls is Im pretty sure only the walls were insulated not the top. At time that top gets so hot I cannot touch it but with the updated furnace with new fan switch that is rare and never last very long unless Im cranking out a load of hickory or locust at top burn. Either way I would think the insulation blanket and celophane would need to withstand temps nearing 500-800 deg as it gets pretty damn hot right above the flu. Specially if you have the old models with the older fan switches and high limit switches. I would like to see that insulation you have on the top around the end of December into January to see how its holding up. Please update if you can an upload pics. Im interested in this process but highly concerned about two things.. num  on the integrity of the insulation both actually working at high temps and not melting, secondly if there is any real advantage to this for 4 hours of work. You see my Tundra rarely gets hot on the outside as it is, specially the walls. The fan kicks on so soon it take the heat out before the metal gets a chance to heat up and likely the chamber as well.. the air is simply moved out to quick for insulation to help possibly. I am thinking the effects would be minimal. My fan kicks on in like 5-10 minutes as it is and stays on pretty much until the last few hours of a burn. I don't think insulation would help much but Im following what your doing cause I am interested in the results. Often I find what I think and what actually is can be two different things. lol.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I think IF I have to line the chimney, I better take advantage of the 25% coupon that Drolet is offering.


I'm not sure what their liner prices are like, but the liner industry is very competitive, if you haven't shopped around much then you should...a liner kit can normally be bought pretty inexpensively really.


TDD11 said:


> 2 friends have installed new wood furnaces within the past week, and so far they both think that their Hotblast furnaces are better than the Tundra


Oh my. Well, some people have to learn the hard way...HB will make some heat for sure...here's one way to look at it, HB is like a sprinter, BANG and then go like heck for a bit. Tundra is more like a marathon runner...not as much fun to watch, but it will "git 'er dun" on less fuel and less chimney cleaning. There definitely is a learning curve to 'em though.


TDD11 said:


> Really, short burn time and the deposits building on the glass of the door are the issues so far


Hmm, that's odd...those two symptoms together that is.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> I would like to see that insulation you have on the top around the end of December into January to see how its holding up.


I'd like to see it after the power goes out about 1/2 hr into a full load of dry wood some morning!  That would be the test...I'm sure it will be fine in normal operating conditions. That's the thing with doing mods...gotta keep in mind the worst case scenario


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> Sure sounds like it...they love smaller dry wood...and least some smaller stuff on top to kick things off.
> Thats why I really like the temp controller, if the flue temp drops too far after the controller closes the damper then (like with too wet or too big wood) it will open it back up again until it hits the programmed high temp (as long as the timer or tstat is still calling for heat)


@brenndatomu, since you have seen the Caddy up close. Do you think the temp controller would work on a Caddy too ?

Scott


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gibbo1979 said:


> Not sure I like the idea of the damper opening and closing when I'm not around.



 

Different strokes for different folks I guess.  I KNOW I wouldn't like a smoldering fire from too little air or raging fire from too much air.  I'll live with having the fire automatically and optimally controlled for me based on hard data....but that's just me.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> @brenndatomu, since you have seen the Caddy up close. Do you think the temp controller would work on a Caddy too ?
> 
> Scott


Absolutely. It makes a _really sweet_ setup. The damper motor on the Caddy is the same its just in the front instead of the back like Tundra/Heatmax. The wiring would be very similar too.
I am not sure yet at this point what I am doing long term as far as keeping the Yukon, keeping the Tundra, buying a Kuuma...just dunno yet, but if I ever go back to using the Yukon full time it is getting a temp controller and then a speed controller on the circ blower too. I think that would very likely solve many/most of the issues I had with it after I modded the firebox


----------



## crewchief264

Digger79 said:


> Im curious how that insulation is holding up on the top of that plenum. One thing I believe I noticed about the Caddy stoves that have insulted walls is Im pretty sure only the walls were insulated not the top. At time that top gets so hot I cannot touch it but with the updated furnace with new fan switch that is rare and never last very long unless Im cranking out a load of hickory or locust at top burn. Either way I would think the insulation blanket and celophane would need to withstand temps nearing 500-800 deg as it gets pretty damn hot right above the flu. Specially if you have the old models with the older fan switches and high limit switches. I would like to see that insulation you have on the top around the end of December into January to see how its holding up. Please update if you can an upload pics. Im interested in this process but highly concerned about two things.. num  on the integrity of the insulation both actually working at high temps and not melting, secondly if there is any real advantage to this for 4 hours of work. You see my Tundra rarely gets hot on the outside as it is, specially the walls. The fan kicks on so soon it take the heat out before the metal gets a chance to heat up and likely the chamber as well.. the air is simply moved out to quick for insulation to help possibly. I am thinking the effects would be minimal. My fan kicks on in like 5-10 minutes as it is and stays on pretty much until the last few hours of a burn. I don't think insulation would help much but Im following what your doing cause I am interested in the results. Often I find what I think and what actually is can be two different things. lol.



EDIT:

The Insulation is Aluminum foil/stitched and rated to 2000 degrees. Its thermo tec. Basically the stuff you would use to insulate an engine bay, or transmission tunnel from hot exhaust etc.... 


Ok wanted to keep you guys in the loop... I got some feedback about the clearance to the side wall and I have taken out the 2x4, cut the cedar back and installed heavy 1/4 inch T6 Alum sheet I had laying around. I now have over 11 inches of clearance to combustibles... My controller is still in the same location. We had a super windy day the other day.... gusts up to 40 and sustained winds up to 20mph... Anyhow my manometer was pulling almost .1 inch with the manual damper all the way open and the fire going.. I adjusted it down to obtain and sustain a steady .06-08. that said I have installed my BD and have it set right at .06. The BD is working great and I should've installed it a long time ago!

I have yet to see flue temps rise over 465 even with those high winds. My controller is set at 475. My low set point I change between 140-160 depending on firebox temp.... I have a swing value of 120 for the temp alarm. The High alarm is set at 100. I am running the timer and a thermostat. I have not yet used the thermostat though.  My thermo couple is about 14 inches from the firebox.

Ok my furnace runs cool compared to my hot blast.. Although I never took duct temp measurements etc with it. but the tundra heats my house faster and longer already on less wood. I have my fan set at factory speed 2. And have an adjustable snap disc installed. To comment on the 200 degree snap disc being covered by insulation. My theory was this, the blanket would keep the heat where it belongs and may cause the snap disc to go off, addressing the safety side of things, is that not what the flue thermo couple, and omni controller are there for. I guess I really don't care all that much about the drolet installed over temp snap disc.

Ok heres my readings as the furnace heats up on a cold start with about 300-350 face temp, before the fans kick on the sides and top of the firebox are warm about 90-95 degrees as soon as the fans kick on which sometimes is below the 300-350 mark the sides and top instantly cool down to below 80 degrees and they stay there. My duct temps upstairs range from 115 damper open and can get up to 125-130. Last night we got down to about 26 degrees. I put a load in at 9pm and set my timer to 25 minutes and walked away. The house was 72 when we went to bed. I got up at 6:30 and the house was 70 and the furnace fans were off but I had coals.... I am happy with the results so far. My wood is not split small either. my splits are pretty big.

I think the insulation is working. Although the basement is still almost 90... namely from the front face being anywhere from 275-475 degrees..... I don't think insulating the front would be wise... I think if the sheet metal came around everything but the loading door and the HE cleanout ad you could get the air circulating around the from too it would make a big difference...... But that would take some serious re design of the exterior she metal..... Out side of what I am planning......

I currently have my damper set to completely close so the only secondary air getting in is through  that little hole.. I am think about adjusting the damper to maybe stay about 1/32-1/16" of an inch open.. I will use some shim stock for that.

I think that covers it and thanks for the comments from all. Things can always be done better and improved on....


----------



## JRHAWK9

crewchief264 said:


> Although the basement is still almost 90... namely from the front face being anywhere from 275-475 degrees.....



Just for comparison, there are some isolated spots on the face of my Kuuma which can get to 800°+...at least according to my infrared.  It's mainly the top center bolt head used to bolt the door frame to the body which seems to be the hottest.  

With basement temps that high, I would try to take some of that warm air and introduce it into your cold air in order to increase your cold air temps, which will then increase your supply temps.  I'm doing just that by taking in the basement air at the ceiling and also sucking in radiant air off the face of the furnace.  Doing this gives me cold air temps ranging from 80°-90°.  My cold air supply temps consistently stay 10-15 degrees warmer than the house/basement temps at any given point, depending on where in the burn cycle it is.  All I am doing is increasing the efficiency of delivered heat by taking some of the radiant heat, reheating it and sending it out.


----------



## crewchief264

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just for comparison, there are some isolated spots on the face of my Kuuma which can get to 800°+...at least according to my infrared.  It's mainly the top center bolt head used to bolt the door frame to the body which seems to be the hottest.
> 
> With basement temps that high, I would try to take some of that warm air and introduce it into your cold air in order to increase your cold air temps, which will then increase your supply temps.  I'm doing just that by taking in the basement air at the ceiling and also sucking in radiant air off the face of the furnace.  Doing this gives me cold air temps ranging from 80°-90°.  My cold air supply temps consistently stay 10-15 degrees warmer than the house/basement temps at any given point, depending on where in the burn cycle it is.  All I am doing is increasing the efficiency of delivered heat by taking some of the radiant heat, reheating it and sending it out.




I have one cold air return in the basement currently.. The room I have the furnace is basically closed off from the rest of the basement.. I may crack the door to let some of the heat out. I also put a vent in the chase where the chimney runs through the house and it lets a good amount of heat up stairs.... I may put a second cold air return in though I think that would help a lot...


----------



## DoubleB

crewchief264 said:


> To comment on the 200 degree snap disc being covered by insulation. My theory was this, the blanket would keep the heat where it belongs and may cause the snap disc to go off, addressing the safety side of things, is that not what the flue thermo couple, and omni controller are there for. I guess I really don't care all that much about the drolet installed over temp snap disc.
> 
> Ok heres my readings as the furnace heats up on a cold start with about 300-350 face temp, before the fans kick on



Crewchief,
Your post sounds like you've thought things through pretty well and are doing a good job overall.  You might still reconsider your top insulation, though.  First, it sounds like it's covered your fan snap disc, which is your first line of defense for safety to remove heat.  If your front temps get up to 300-350 before the fan kicks on, I think mine comes on much sooner (like 150F on the front face).  You can probably heat your house even better if you get the fan running at the right plenum temperatures.

Second, I agree your temp controller should prevent over temps, but I wouldn't rely on it.  There's no harm in retaining the functionality of the original snap disc.  It can't hurt, it can only help, and you don't lose any heat by keeping it enabled.  Also, what happens when you sell the house, or the furnace, or remove your temp controller, or who knows what in the future and some unsuspecting person, perhaps yourself, no longer has some form of overtemp protection.  

In my opinion, when dealing with fire I try to design for the unexpected, not only the expected.


----------



## TDD11

In engineering safety systems, we emphasize redundant safety limits as much as possible. I'd keep the factory overtemp switch.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

crewchief264 said:


> I have one cold air return in the basement currently.. The room I have the furnace is basically closed off from the rest of the basement.. I may crack the door to let some of the heat out. I also put a vent in the chase where the chimney runs through the house and it lets a good amount of heat up stairs.... I may put a second cold air return in though I think that would help a lot...



What are you doing for makeup air for the Bd, or combustion air if its in its own sealed rm?


----------



## crewchief264

STIHLY DAN said:


> What are you doing for makeup air for the Bd, or combustion air if its in its own sealed rm?




I apologize....The room isn't sealed... I just typically keep the door pulled shut. I just have a home built sliding barn door that slides shut...Its far from sealed.. the room also has a cold air return..... The chimney is also in this room and runs through a chase that is vented into the upper level to steal heat off the chimney and that room. The BD is operating great... also my basement is also a 4 car garage... Its far from completely sealed. Although I do have my garage doors adjusted nice and tight.


----------



## Teglovinvtec

you guys i have my thermostat hooked up honeywell i forget what model digital but its always 8-10 degrees off. compared to my carrier WiFi thermostat right next to it on inside temp or just stays there. I've  tried 2 new others and same issue. i have the red and white wired to R and W is there something im missing. works and opens damper door when calling for heat or not and closes. fan on ON Setting and thermostat on HEAT weird! i dono thinking about going to the old round style. yesterday inside temp said 81 and carrier said 67 it was deff closer to 67 then 81.


----------



## brenndatomu

Boy that is strange...sounds like you are wired right...whats the tstat read before wired up? In other words just drop a battery in it and have it sitting there...sure sounds like a bad one, but hard to believe you got 3 bad ones!


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Unwired sitting there within a degree of the carrier or the same


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Replaced battery with another new one from different box still the same I doubt I had 3 bad ones. I even put a thermometer in room to see if carrier was off and it's dead on


----------



## brenndatomu

Hmm, maybe I'm wrong about the wiring being correct...hey @STIHLY DAN , what say you?


----------



## DoubleB

Yea that's weird.  What if you take the cover off and use a fan to blow room air over the temp sensor part?  If the temp readout lowers, then it's probably actually measuring temp properly and there's probably internal heat build-up (which might be caused by a few freakish things).  Unlikely, but a simple trouble-shooting step.


----------



## crewchief264

Teglovinvtec said:


> you guys i have my thermostat hooked up honeywell i forget what model digital but its always 8-10 degrees off. compared to my carrier WiFi thermostat right next to it on inside temp or just stays there. I've  tried 2 new others and same issue. i have the red and white wired to R and W is there something im missing. works and opens damper door when calling for heat or not and closes. fan on ON Setting and thermostat on HEAT weird! i dono thinking about going to the old round style. yesterday inside temp said 81 and carrier said 67 it was deff closer to 67 then 81.



Hey I have an older Honeywell model 8000 I believe... this summer the thermostat was reading off about 4 degrees... you can go into advanced settings and change the offset.... but honestly I'm pretty sure mine is just going bad. It is 9 years old..... just some food for thought. The good old days of mercury are long gone.... lol 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Teglovinvtec

I'll give it a try but I'm pretty sure this Honeywell doesn't have that advanced setting it's pretty basic heat only non programmable


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Well that is not possible to read 2 different readings with wired and battery together.. For if its under voltage the batteries take over.  sounds like there is an issue in your low voltage setup. Try running off battery alone, do not put a wire on C. If this works its an under voltage issue.


----------



## Digger79

hmmm. well I was thinking in hindsight to my earlier comment about preventing cracking.. So after having owned two of these units one cracking in multiple areas and getting a updated replacement model and operating/tinkering with the new one I have come to this conclusion. There are 2 separate cracking issues with the first models both cause by poor placement of the snap switches as well their ranges. partially by welding HE door but more the snap switches. Stove 1 cracked not only around the fire box but also around the heat exchanger door. SBI did put some relief room in the HE door however they also set the high limit switch for the damper door at a lower temp as well the fan switch at a lower temp. You can sit on the new model while the flu is 600 deg! lol. So here's my point. upon finally being annoyed with the fan basically running all the time I rem Brenndatomu saying something about the fan not affecting flu temps all the much.. He's right. It does affect the Heat Exchanger temp drastically which largely prevent cracks at the HE door.. So far as the first models goes it seems not only does the flu need kept under 800 deg but also the HE compartment needs kept much cooler as well. Fan needs to come on much sooner and stay on till furnace is cold.


----------



## Digger79

crewchief264 said:


> EDIT:
> 
> The Insulation is Aluminum foil/stitched and rated to 2000 degrees. Its thermo tec. Basically the stuff you would use to insulate an engine bay, or transmission tunnel from hot exhaust etc....
> 
> 
> Ok wanted to keep you guys in the loop... I got some feedback about the clearance to the side wall and I have taken out the 2x4, cut the cedar back and installed heavy 1/4 inch T6 Alum sheet I had laying around. I now have over 11 inches of clearance to combustibles... My controller is still in the same location. We had a super windy day the other day.... gusts up to 40 and sustained winds up to 20mph... Anyhow my manometer was pulling almost .1 inch with the manual damper all the way open and the fire going.. I adjusted it down to obtain and sustain a steady .06-08. that said I have installed my BD and have it set right at .06. The BD is working great and I should've installed it a long time ago!
> 
> I have yet to see flue temps rise over 465 even with those high winds. My controller is set at 475. My low set point I change between 140-160 depending on firebox temp.... I have a swing value of 120 for the temp alarm. The High alarm is set at 100. I am running the timer and a thermostat. I have not yet used the thermostat though.  My thermo couple is about 14 inches from the firebox.
> 
> Ok my furnace runs cool compared to my hot blast.. Although I never took duct temp measurements etc with it. but the tundra heats my house faster and longer already on less wood. I have my fan set at factory speed 2. And have an adjustable snap disc installed. To comment on the 200 degree snap disc being covered by insulation. My theory was this, the blanket would keep the heat where it belongs and may cause the snap disc to go off, addressing the safety side of things, is that not what the flue thermo couple, and omni controller are there for. I guess I really don't care all that much about the drolet installed over temp snap disc.
> 
> Ok heres my readings as the furnace heats up on a cold start with about 300-350 face temp, before the fans kick on the sides and top of the firebox are warm about 90-95 degrees as soon as the fans kick on which sometimes is below the 300-350 mark the sides and top instantly cool down to below 80 degrees and they stay there. My duct temps upstairs range from 115 damper open and can get up to 125-130. Last night we got down to about 26 degrees. I put a load in at 9pm and set my timer to 25 minutes and walked away. The house was 72 when we went to bed. I got up at 6:30 and the house was 70 and the furnace fans were off but I had coals.... I am happy with the results so far. My wood is not split small either. my splits are pretty big.
> 
> I think the insulation is working. Although the basement is still almost 90... namely from the front face being anywhere from 275-475 degrees..... I don't think insulating the front would be wise... I think if the sheet metal came around everything but the loading door and the HE cleanout ad you could get the air circulating around the from too it would make a big difference...... But that would take some serious re design of the exterior she metal..... Out side of what I am planning......
> 
> I currently have my damper set to completely close so the only secondary air getting in is through  that little hole.. I am think about adjusting the damper to maybe stay about 1/32-1/16" of an inch open.. I will use some shim stock for that.
> 
> I think that covers it and thanks for the comments from all. Things can always be done better and improved on....


awesome report thanks


----------



## Digger79

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just for comparison, there are some isolated spots on the face of my Kuuma which can get to 800°+...at least according to my infrared.  It's mainly the top center bolt head used to bolt the door frame to the body which seems to be the hottest.
> 
> With basement temps that high, I would try to take some of that warm air and introduce it into your cold air in order to increase your cold air temps, which will then increase your supply temps.  I'm doing just that by taking in the basement air at the ceiling and also sucking in radiant air off the face of the furnace.  Doing this gives me cold air temps ranging from 80°-90°.  My cold air supply temps consistently stay 10-15 degrees warmer than the house/basement temps at any given point, depending on where in the burn cycle it is.  All I am doing is increasing the efficiency of delivered heat by taking some of the radiant heat, reheating it and sending it out.


What a great idea. You see my Tundra is located in a stand alone garage and piped in to my crawl space about 5 ft away with the cold air return running out of my kitchen window. lol. Yeah kitchen sucks but I live in a rental so all my setup is literally temporary and quick to remove. long story sounds silly but my system is solid. Anyhow. I lose a ton of heat into the garage which at times is 80-90 deg in dead of winter. Def not needed.. So with this though putting a cold air return in the return line running above the furnace through the garage would def reclaim some of that heat being thrown out into the garage and push it into the house as well. My only concern is smoke odor. I realize most people have these in their basements however mine is in a separate garage. Initially I put a filter on the furnace and had no cold air return. Was sucking air from in the garage only. Well it stunk up the house as the air being sucked in right behind the furnace also sucked in some smoke odor that leaks out in the garage. I think putting an register in the cold air return line will probably cause the same issue however I am hoping I have me smoke leakage down to a minimum by now so it will be minimal or non existent. When I first put the Tundra in I had no idea what I was doing and had the setup all wrong.. no insulated flu, wet wood ect. Now that I've "mastered" lol the Tundra art of burning hopefully adding a register in the cold air line above the stove will give me some more heat with no smoke odor. I am heating very well with the current setup even with stove being outside the home. If I was able to put this thing inside I would be able to run it until janurary! lol


----------



## Digger79

Just when I think I got the Tundra dialed in an at optimal operation some one comes along and makes me want to put in a second cold air return intake. lol. One other thing I feel needs change is the fan switch. Its nice it comes on early and shuts off late as it pushes basically any heat even mild into the home. However I feel it would be nicer, specially if I put in a second cold air return intake above the stove, to let the plenum get just a little warmer before the fan kicks on. Not much but at least warm air not cold. Currently newer model fan switches will blow air that feels cold at first and end of cycles. I mean its prob 70 deg air or so I haven't measured duct temps in a while but just a little more delay in the fan would seem helpful specially with adding a second return intake above stove.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Crewchief,
> Your post sounds like you've thought things through pretty well and are doing a good job overall.  You might still reconsider your top insulation, though.  First, it sounds like it's covered your fan snap disc, which is your first line of defense for safety to remove heat.  If your front temps get up to 300-350 before the fan kicks on, I think mine comes on much sooner (like 150F on the front face).  You can probably heat your house even better if you get the fan running at the right plenum temperatures.
> 
> Second, I agree your temp controller should prevent over temps, but I wouldn't rely on it.  There's no harm in retaining the functionality of the original snap disc.  It can't hurt, it can only help, and you don't lose any heat by keeping it enabled.  Also, what happens when you sell the house, or the furnace, or remove your temp controller, or who knows what in the future and some unsuspecting person, perhaps yourself, no longer has some form of overtemp protection.
> 
> In my opinion, when dealing with fire I try to design for the unexpected, not only the expected.


Very well thought out. Great response.


----------



## sloeffle

TDD11 said:


> Ordered my Omega temperature controller, box and timer today. I cannot wait!!


Would like to get a temp controller setup on my Caddy. I found the following info in this thread, and from some help from @brenndatomu :

Mcmaster #3871K52 Thermocouple - https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/122/622/=156i3bm

Omega engineering # CN418V-R1-R2 temp controller - http://www.omega.com/pptst/CN4000_SERIES.html - Only place I can find it on the web

Mcmaster #75065K35 Electrical Box - https://www.mcmaster.com/#75065k35/=wjbfxb

Timer - Do anybody have a part number or web site for this ?

@3fordasho or @TDD11  does this look correct.

Thanks,
Scott


----------



## 3fordasho

Timer like this: http://www.menards.com/main/electri...426729125-c-6471.htm?tid=-8071111794301443338

The other items are correct.





sloeffle said:


> Would like to get a temp controller setup on my Caddy. I found the following info in this thread, and from some help from @brenndatomu :
> 
> Mcmaster #3871K52 Thermocouple - https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/122/622/=156i3bm
> 
> Omega engineering # CN418V-R1-R2 temp controller - http://www.omega.com/pptst/CN4000_SERIES.html - Only place I can find it on the web
> 
> Mcmaster #75065K35 Electrical Box - https://www.mcmaster.com/#75065k35/=wjbfxb
> 
> Timer - Do anybody have a part number or web site for this ?
> 
> @3fordasho or @TDD11  does this look correct.
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott


----------



## brenndatomu

The timers are just basically the ole spring wound bathroom fan timer/switch...at least that's what I used


----------



## Pinny

Anyone do a pre-heated fresh air mod? It's not even cold out yet and my fresh air has my basement cold . I thought I could run a 3" pipe from the back parallel to the HE tubes and dump out the side or top to pre-heat the incoming air. Thoughts?


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## brenndatomu

Did you make a cold air trap for your fresh air pipe? That usually works out pretty well in my experience. Cold air only pulled in as the furnace uses it.
I think preheating the fresh air through the "plenum" will result in cooling the heated air to the house...resulting in a net loss.


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## Pinny

brenndatomu said:


> Did you make a cold air trap for your fresh air pipe? That usually works out pretty well in my experience. Cold air only pulled in as the furnace uses it.
> I think preheating the fresh air through the "plenum" will result in cooling the heated air to the house...resulting in a net loss.


If a window cracked open is considered an acceptable trap than no. I agree with the heat loss but than again I would still be heating the air entering that room which by the way is a 1008 sq/ft open floor so would that really be a loss? Maybe I would be wasting my time messing with something so minor By the way that same air feeds not only the Tundra but a gas water heater, cloths dryer and bathroom vent.


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## brenndatomu

Window open...ha! Yeah, you'll have better results building a proper cold air intake then...as far as the basement getting cold.


----------



## Teglovinvtec

guys has anyone done the therma coil or any hot water mods im saving so much with heating now im tempted to heat my water but not sure if its worth it.

i want a temp controller but confused about it. i saw the link for them which ones are you guys using and how are they all set up wiring temps etc.


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## maple1

If it will help you figure if it's worth it or not - I figured my DHW load is about 1/30 of my heating load.

And when not heating, it runs about $20-25/mo to heat our DHW via conventional electric hot water tank, with $0.18/kwh electricity.


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## Teglovinvtec

I'm lp my wife takes a lot of baths. Anyone with a tundra do this mod? Just haven't seen to many EPA stoves with this mod wondering if there's a reason


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## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> Just haven't seen to many EPA stoves with this mod wondering if there's a reason


Too much heat loss if you put the coil in the firebox, (screws with secondary combustion)(plus ultra high temps on the coil) and temps are too low to make it work worth a darn externally.
I'm like Maple1, electric heater costs me $20 mo to run...not worth foolin with


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## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> i want a temp controller but confused about it. i saw the link for them which ones are you guys using and how are they all set up wiring temps etc.


That info is here in this thread somewheres...here's some help to find it...https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/tundra-heatmax-information-guide.157330/


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## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> temps are too low to make it work worth a darn externally.



Kuuma's have an optional water coil which can be bolted to the rear of the firebox on the outside.  I have one and use an old 40gallon electric water heater as a tempering tank for my LP water heater.  Our LP water heater doesn't run nearly as often in winter as it does in summer and the supply feeding the LP water heater is always nice & warm.  There are only two people in our household too, so that also helps.


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## Teglovinvtec

Thanks for the quick replies guys


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## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Kuuma's have an optional water coil which can be bolted to the rear of the firebox on the outside.  I have one and use an old 40gallon electric water heater as a tempering tank for my LP water heater.  Our LP water heater doesn't run nearly as often in winter as it does in summer and the supply feeding the LP water heater is always nice & warm.  There are only two people in our household too, so that also helps.


Yeah the Kuuma was designed for this option...the Tundra not so much. I suppose you could figure out a way to pull some heat off the unit, but IMO that would be a lot of trial and error cutting and welding to get the best spot worked out...and then you are still stealing heat that could be put into the house (which is the primary reason for the furnace) I know for me, the Tundra isn't any too big for my house, so I don't want to put additional "load" on it. If Tundra is plenty big for your house, and you don't mind some trial and error testing, then I'm sure someone could come up with something that works at least to some degree.
If I do anything to save money on DHW, I may look at replacing my water heater with a HPWH once mine goes out...the verdict is still out if it would be worth the extra money or not (for me)


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## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah the Kuuma was designed for this option...the Tundra not so much. I suppose you could figure out a way to pull some heat off the unit, but IMO that would be a lot of trial and error cutting and welding to get the best spot worked out...and then you are still stealing heat that could be put into the house (which is the primary reason for the furnace) I know for me, the Tundra isn't any too big for my house, so I don't want to put additional "load" on it. If Tundra is plenty big for your house, and you don't mind some trial and error testing, then I'm sure someone could come up with something that works at least to some degree.
> If I do anything to save money on DHW, I may look at replacing my water heater with a HPWH once mine goes out...the verdict is still out if it would be worth the extra money or not (for me)



Of course its worth it. Do it before all the rebates (state, fed, utility) are gone. I saved $1,200 to $1,500 a year with one. About $700 now that oil is so cheap.


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## brenndatomu

I've not found any rebates around heres on 'em


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## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> Of course its worth it. Do it before all the rebates (state, fed, utility) are gone. I saved $1,200 to $1,500 a year with one. About $700 now that oil is so cheap.



jeez, ya know, you could save even more $$$ if you'd get rid of all the women in your house using all that hot water.


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## TDD11

I have my temp controller installed - finished it last night. I installed it and the timer exactly like @3fordasho, including the configuration settings. 

It seems like my stove after the initial burn, will bounce between the 255 Low Alarm Limit and the 355 AHYS Alarm Hysteresis somewhat frequently. When it hits the 355 and closes the inlet damper,it seems like only a minute goes by before it hits the alarm again and opens the front damper. I obviously set the AHYS correctly to 100. This is only 3.5 hours into a load of 4 4-5" ash splits- wood is really coaled now.


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## brenndatomu

Boy, that's weird...mine doesn't drop anywhere near that quick. But I have my low alarm turned off (well, set to 60*) so that it doesn't come into play...I found it works better for me to just let the tstat open the damper at the end of the load to burn coals down/maintain house temp.


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## TDD11

I gotcha.. That makes sense too. I'm not using a thermostat.


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## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I've not found any rebates around heres on 'em


No rebates in backwards Ohio.

We save around $40 a month over a standard electric hot water heater with our HPHW.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> No rebates in backwards Ohio.
> 
> We save around $40 a month over a standard electric hot water heater with our HPHW.


Even if there were a rebate through the power company, we wouldn't get it. Our community owns its own (basically non profit) electric power plant and they don't seem to participate in that stuff...we do have reasonable electric costs though...at least for now.


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## laynes69

Our water heater went out, and I couldn't wait to order a HPWH. I wanted one, maybe someday, but because we belong to a Co-op, they will give us a 100 dollar credit for a new water heater over 90% efficient.


----------



## 3fordasho

Your temp settings may have to be adjusted for your particular set up.  A 255F low alarm setting works great on my first tundra.  The 2nd tundra  I installed needs a 215F setting.  Different chimney set ups, temp probe placement and other things means each particular install may have different settings.

I like the low alarm to come on at a flue temp when active secondary burn has died out but there is still un-burnt wood that should be off-gassing -   of course this temp will vary but watching the flue temps you will get an idea.




TDD11 said:


> I have my temp controller installed - finished it last night. I installed it and the timer exactly like @3fordasho, including the configuration settings.
> 
> It seems like my stove after the initial burn, will bounce between the 255 Low Alarm Limit and the 355 AHYS Alarm Hysteresis somewhat frequently. When it hits the 355 and closes the inlet damper,it seems like only a minute goes by before it hits the alarm again and opens the front damper. I obviously set the AHYS correctly to 100. This is only 3.5 hours into a load of 4 4-5" ash splits- wood is really coaled now.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Even if there were a rebate through the power company, we wouldn't get it. Our community owns its own (basically non profit) electric power plant and they don't seem to participate in that stuff...we do have reasonable electric costs though...at least for now.



$300 govt one is still there, I believe this is the last year of that.


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## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> Of course its worth it. Do it before all the rebates (state, fed, utility) are gone. I saved $1,200 to $1,500 a year with one. About $700 now that oil is so cheap.



Man you must go through a lot of hot water, that sounds steep.  That sounds like 300-400 gallons per winter just for hot water--that's a couple cords of good firewood just for water.  That means your yearly hot water demand is almost the same as your winter house heating load (assuming 4-5 cords to heat the house without hot water).  

I have 2 electric water heaters with a combined winter monthly cost of about $30-$40/month.  I burn in earnest for 4-5 months per year.  Even if I had a hot water coil my savings are about $150/year.  I think about doing it sometimes, but not enough payback compared to all the other projects I need to do.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> Man you must go through a lot of hot water, that sounds steep. That sounds like 300-400 gallons per winter just for hot water--that's a couple cords of good firewood just for water. That means your yearly hot water demand is almost the same



on average it was 1 gallon a day for hot h2o. I ripped out the boiler and put in the electric heat pump. My electric bill went DOWN.


----------



## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> on average it was 1 gallon a day for hot h2o. I ripped out the boiler and put in the electric heat pump. My electric bill went DOWN.



Ah, got it. 

I don't remember if you have a hot water coil on your Kuuma, but if so, it's saving you the cost of your heat pump for 4-6 months per year that you burn wood.  I'm guessing the heat pump costs about $20-$30/month for hot water?  If so, the coil is saving you $120-$150/year nowadays, not $1200-$1500 of yesteryear.  I'm not belittling your coil at all, I'm just trying to understand properly and get the right order of magnitude savings.


----------



## JRHAWK9

We have LP furnace, drier and water heater and we used a total of 135 gallons over 55 weeks last year.  Roughly 38 gallons were used for the LP furnace over that timeframe.  So over that same 55 weeks our drier and water heater used less than a combined 100 gallons.....or about 7 gallons a month for both on average.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

DoubleB said:


> Ah, got it.
> 
> I don't remember if you have a hot water coil on your Kuuma, but if so, it's saving you the cost of your heat pump for 4-6 months per year that you burn wood.  I'm guessing the heat pump costs about $20-$30/month for hot water?  If so, the coil is saving you $120-$150/year nowadays, not $1200-$1500 of yesteryear.  I'm not belittling your coil at all, I'm just trying to understand properly and get the right order of magnitude savings.



I think you are misunderstanding me. My hpwh from april till november I make money on hot h20 free hot h20 and electric bill goes down. The Kuuma does have a coil but its just a helper, basicaly increases the amount of hot water on hand. With the hpwh the hot h2o coil saves me very little, if I was still on oil hot h2o the savings would be greater. My point was not that the coil was great, but rather how much money @brenndatomu could save with a hpwh.


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## DoubleB

STIHLY DAN said:


> My point was not that the coil was great, but rather how much money @brenndatomu could save with a hpwh.



ok, now I'm clear, I was on a different wavelength.  Thanks.


----------



## travwise

Serial # 1500, about 4 months of heating noticed crack in face of furnace, near damper (photos attached). SBI wants me to hire a welder, I want a refund. Seriously when does this rise to the level of a class action law suit? 

Anyone had any luck extracting a refund when SBIs initial response was repair?


----------



## travwise

Another pic


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## DoubleB

Wow, that's a big one.  Sorry to hear about that.

IIRC someone else recently reported in this thread that SBI wanted them to hire a welder, and I believe they held out until SBI refunded.  If you look through the last several pages (I know, some time required), you'll find who it was, unless they speak up first.

For what it's worth, the space behind that crack is just empty airspace that the blower blows through.  The firebox is right below it.  The crack there might even be limiting full stress from reaching your firebox.  I'm not at all saying the crack is good.  But at least if it were to crack that's a less bad place for it.  I have one there, too, although not quite as big.


----------



## Digger79

travwise said:


> Serial # 1500, about 4 months of heating noticed crack in face of furnace, near damper (photos attached). SBI wants me to hire a welder, I want a refund. Seriously when does this rise to the level of a class action law suit?
> 
> Anyone had any luck extracting a refund when SBIs initial response was repair?


Most of the cracking is purely cosmetic. There is little room for a lawsuit in this case specially in the case that if the Tundra is installed by a certified installer and ran to spec it will not crack. The error here is in allowing too much user error in the design of how the Tundra operates so a class action law suit is highly unlikely.. However I will speak highly of SBI as they replaced my old model with a new updated model setup with proper measures so it can not be cracked by user error. It is a great furnace. Much better an more efficient than the first model. They tried to offer me a repair as well but I simply demanded a replacement. They did it with no argument. Call them an demand a replacement, tell them you are counting on this furnace to heat your home and are concerned about repairs not solving the problem or a rebuild kit. They will replace it if you stand firm and demand it. They will not issue a refund as that is not part of the warranty. SBI is great, makes awesome stoves they just screwed up letting people use thermostats without a better high limit shut off and lower fan turn on temps. They new tundra models is awesome. Trust that.


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## travwise

As always, great info. You guys are great, thank you very much.


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## brenndatomu

While this cracking issue is _far_ from impressive, and _obviously_ not optimal, I don't feel like it is a safety issue really. I think the fact that a couple of us have continued to run 'em that way long term with no issues kinda shows that. I mean these are a *natural draft* unit, that's a completely different animal than a cracked HE on a forced combustion oil or gas furnace.
I can't speak for everybody, but of the people that I know of that have made a warranty claim, most received store credit equal to what they paid for their unit. I think @Digger79  is the only one I know of that got a direct replacement. Can't say I know of anybody getting a complete "refund" in cash (per say)


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## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> if the Tundra is installed by a certified installer and ran to spec it will not crack. The error here is in allowing too much user error in the design of how the Tundra operates



I give @Digger79 credit for being more gracious than me.  I agree SBI customer service has been great to many of us.  I am hopeful (but need more evidence) that new Tundras won't crack.  But as for the first 3 years of production, those Tundras seemed to crack a lot even when installed and operated to spec.  I don't think user operation has much to do with it, it appears to be a design that doesn't accommodate enough thermal expansion.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> I think @Digger79 is the only one I know of that got a direct replacement.



Didn't someone on the a-site get a direct replacement unit in the early days?


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Didn't someone on the a-site get a direct replacement unit in the early days?


Yeah, could be, vaguely rings a bell...


----------



## TDD11

I contacted SBI about the update in regards to the new blower switch and over temp switch locations and mounting and they said there is no such thing. Can you guys provide details? Anyone with a newer stove or who has moved theirs that can send pictures and details?


----------



## DoubleB

TDD11 said:


> I contacted SBI about the update in regards to the new blower switch and over temp switch locations and mounting and they said there is no such thing. Can you guys provide details? Anyone with a newer stove or who has moved theirs that can send pictures and details?



The first few hundred serial numbers had the snap disc on the rear of the furnace, I'm pretty sure inside the control box.  I don't recall any pictures in this thread of the snap disc inside the control box, but Wisneaky's picture in post #3 on page 1 shows the top of his furnace doesn't have anything on it (other than ducts).

No later than serial number 7xx, the snap discs were relocated to the top of the furnace, and the snap discs and their wiring was enclosed under steel strips on top of the furnace as shown in post 994 of page 40.  Still had the same control box on the rear of the furnace.  Most of the Tundras/Heatmax's have this configuration. 

If you asked SBI about a newer switch or location they might not have understood what you were asking since it happened a few years ago early in the production run.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I contacted SBI about the update in regards to the new blower switch and over temp switch locations and mounting and they said there is no such thing. Can you guys provide details? Anyone with a newer stove or who has moved theirs that can send pictures and details?


So your limit switch is in the control box on the back? If so then I call BS on SBI, they moved the revised fan control and limit switch up on the top, in the middle. And there is extended wiring and metal "conduit" to run the wires in. They have given the "kit" to quite a few people that had the original "on the back" setup


----------



## TDD11

You are both right. I am serial #609 and I asked for the updated switches/wiring for the new mounting location on top of the furnace instead of the control box on the back of the furnace. SBI said no such kit exists. I will try to further clarify with them.

Especially on start up, the top center of the furnace is way too hot to touch before the blower starts.


----------



## TDD11

SBI's final answer.. 


> Location have changed from serial number 675. Unfortunately, we don’t have a document or a procedure to modify your furnace.


No update, no kit, no details.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> SBI's final answer..
> 
> No update, no kit, no details.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Complete BS. Make a stink, call, e-mail, yell, scream, ,swear, get that kit. From what I remember they work like chit without it.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> SBI's final answer..
> 
> No update, no kit, no details.


Honestly it isn't that hard to DIY. Get on fleabay and order a couple adjustable temp snap switches, extend the wires up to the middle of the top (there are already marks punched there where the switchs and the screws go) using high temp rated wire. You could easily DIY some EMT conduit to run the wires in to keep it clean looking.


----------



## DoubleB

TDD11 said:


> No update, no kit, no details.



I agree with Brenn and Stihly, total BS.  

Brenn's right, you should be able to DIY without too much trouble.  However, before that I'd look up the more recent owner's manual, get the parts list for the parts and wires you need, and give them the BOM and ask them to send those parts to you.  No sense re-inventing the wheel if you could hold their hand and help them out a little bit to remember exactly what they recently did on the subsequent 1500 units they produced.

You should be able to find a manual and see the difference between the parts in your manual, but if not let me know and if I find some time here I can try to find it for you.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> I give @Digger79 credit for being more gracious than me.  I agree SBI customer service has been great to many of us.  I am hopeful (but need more evidence) that new Tundras won't crack.  But as for the first 3 years of production, those Tundras seemed to crack a lot even when installed and operated to spec.  I don't think user operation has much to do with it, it appears to be a design that doesn't accommodate enough thermal expansion.


New model Tundra won't crack. They got the damn fan coming on so soon plus high limit.. flu never goes over 750-800 so long you shut the door... lol. yeah I left it cracked too long one day and hit like 950-1000.. still no cracks. I freaked out. chit smelled warm but nothing melted nothing warped nothing cracked.. Prob caught it just before something went wrong. Gotta stop leaving that door cracked and walking out for 5 min w out setting a damn timer. lol. Anyhow I do know if the initial tundra was installed to spec and not left to run on a therm in a under insulated or over square foot size home for the furnace.. Tundra 1 would not crack. It was def due to the therm calling for heat with too low of a high limit switch. Once I figured out the problem I am confident I could have run Tundra 1 without cracking it but def would require modification. So Yeah SBI is at fault as well the users IMO including myself. I've been thru 2 models now, lots of time on phone with SBI techs, welders discussing things. The new model I've had for 2 seasons now this being the 2nd. Ive cranked it up hot as I can an the new controls will not let it over heat. I am having a little issue with the fan coming on so early and staying on so late. It does blow cool air for a while at startup and end of burns. Even though its pushing mild heat even though it feels cold.. which should ultimately put more heat in the home.. I am thinking a slight adjustment allowing the plenum to heat just a little bit more could produce better heating on demand. The new model is solid no doubt. They idiot proofed it.


----------



## Digger79

An added not about the cracking... I was concerned with pinging noises new stove was making an discussed this w SBI as well. They assured me the new model would not crack on me and said relax... If your new unit cracks we will send you a new one again and again you have our word. So far so good.  It takes a little work and phone calls work best and demanding they return calls. I found dealing with emails they tried to blow me off but soon as I got verbally in contact with them customer service was far better. Prob have a email protocol to follow so working with them live thru phone calls works best. SBI is a smaller company than we may think and some of the people working at customer service in CA are actually good people, former welders and techs for SBI and I was shocked they actually gave a crap about me and my dismay with this situation. One tech advised me no deny the repair and demand the replacement but not to tell SBI she said so. She was a welder. Thats pretty good customer service IMO.


----------



## trx250r87

Does this help???


----------



## TDD11

That helps a ton Thank you!!


----------



## trx250r87

Sorry for the sideways pics. They were correct in my phone but for some reason a few are flipped 90 degrees on here.  

Sent from my SM-G930R6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Builderml

travwise said:


> Serial # 1500, about 4 months of heating noticed crack in face of furnace, near damper (photos attached). SBI wants me to hire a welder, I want a refund. Seriously when does this rise to the level of a class action law suit?
> 
> Anyone had any luck extracting a refund when SBIs initial response was repair?



Don't just deal with SBI use your retailer where purchased from and demand a replacement or refund. Also now you have a case number with SBI have your retailer act on your behalf. The retailers have alot more leverage over SBI just like you have leverage over your retailer.
Let me expand on this:
Here is what i would do in your case.
1)Reply back to SBI stating that welding a new wood furnace is unacceptable to you.
2)Tell them you will only accept a full refund for a failed unit or you want a replacement.
3) Contact your retailer and ask to speak to the heating buyer or the person who would deal with SBI when buying.
4) Tell your retailer you would like them to intervene on your behalf. Tell your retailer to also state that welding your unit is unacceptable and that a full refund or replacement  is the only two choices that are acceptable.
5) I dealt with L&M supply whos customer  service is 1st class. They gave me the refund before things were even done with SBI. Which inturn now made collecting a refund from SBI there problem not yours.
6) Good luck if you need more advice just ask


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> While this cracking issue is _far_ from impressive, and _obviously_ not optimal, I don't feel like it is a safety issue really. I think the fact that a couple of us have continued to run 'em that way long term with no issues kinda shows that. I mean these are a *natural draft* unit, that's a completely different animal than a cracked HE on a forced combustion oil or gas furnace.
> I can't speak for everybody, but of the people that I know of that have made a warranty claim, most received store credit equal to what they paid for their unit. I think @Digger79  is the only one I know of that got a direct replacement. Can't say I know of anybody getting a complete "refund" in cash (per say)


I did I did...... I received a complete refund of my purchase price including shipping cost.


----------



## brenndatomu

Hey guys, I seen Drolet has a $200 rebate on Tundra/Heatmax II through the end of the year...just FYI if anybody is shopping one. Would make for a pretty good deal, especially on top of a store sale price.

On another note...I recently discovered an interesting lil trick on my Tundra. I have a pile of construction cutoffs to burn up so I have been throwing a 2x4 or two on top of my usual wood load, boy does she run hot like this! One lil ole 2x4 seems to be good for a least 5* higher duct air temps...


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Hey guys, I seen Drolet has a $200 rebate on Tundra/Heatmax II through the end of the year...just FYI if anybody is shopping one. Would make for a pretty good deal, especially on top of a store sale price.


Wanted to nitpick slightly. The $200 rebate is on the purchase of a Heatmax II or Tundra II, not the original Tundra - not that many are left or available.
However they did just end a rebate promotion for $100 off the purchase of the Tundra - which I did claim. Maybe I should brag. Menards dropped the price to $1300 for the Tundra, and I bought the stove during the 11% rebate sale, which equates to a $142 savings. In addition they offered a $300 rebate. So I got that too. Lastly, Drolet offered the $100 promotional rebate. After tax, out the door, I got my Tundra for $850 + installation costs (stove pipe etc).


----------



## TDD11

Also, I emailed Drolet with the photos above of the update. Cannot wait to hear the reply.


----------



## brenndatomu

brenndatomu said:


>


Just to be clear, this ^^^ is BS on SBI, not TDD11.


TDD11 said:


> Wanted to nitpick slightly. The $200 rebate is on the purchase of a Heatmax II or Tundra II, not the original Tundra - not that many are left or available.
> However they did just end a rebate promotion for $100 off the purchase of the Tundra - which I did claim. Maybe I should brag. Menards dropped the price to $1300 for the Tundra, and I bought the stove during the 11% rebate sale, which equates to a $142 savings. In addition they offered a $300 rebate. So I got that too. Lastly, Drolet offered the $100 promotional rebate. After tax, out the door, I got my Tundra for $850 + installation costs (stove pipe etc).


And while I'm clarifying things...that's what I said, rebate is on Tundra/Heatmax II...


----------



## TDD11

Semantics, not a big deal Lol. I just read "Tundra/Heatmax II" to imply Tundra or Heatmax II, not Tundra II or Heatmax II.


----------



## zmcnutt

Has anyone sent in for their rebate on the Tundra from Menards? I see that my $300 rebate has been processed but my 11% rebate has not yet. Anyone else deal with this?


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> Has anyone sent in for their rebate on the Tundra from Menards? I see that my $300 rebate has been processed but my 11% rebate has not yet. Anyone else deal with this?


Yep, they get backlogged for sure. The last one I sent in ($135) wasn't touched for 8 weeks. I was starting to think USPS lost it...(Menards got it all back anyways (plus some) on black Friday )


----------



## zmcnutt

brenndatomu said:


> Yep, they get backlogged for sure. The last one I sent in ($135) wasn't touched for 8 weeks. I was starting to think USPS lost it...(Menards got it all back anyways (plus some) on black Friday )


 
Glad I'm not the only one that seems to have wait forever for rebates


----------



## DoubleB

trx250r87 said:


> Does this help???



Thanks for posting that, @trx250r87 !



TDD11 said:


> Also, I emailed Drolet with the photos above of the update. Cannot wait to hear the reply



Just to clarify, @TDD11 , I believe trx250r87's packing slip is what you're most interested in, with the right materials you would need for the update.  The installation instructions shown are helpful, and are for a replacement over-temperature snap disc on top of the furnace although those instructions only describe furnaces (like mine) that already had the snap discs on top.  In other words, you're trying to do more than what is in those installation instructions, so if you focus SBI on those installation instructions, you might distract them from the bigger picture and lead them to send you only a portion of what you're after.  The contents on that packing slip is your target.  trx250r87 gave you (us) some great info up there that should help a lot.


----------



## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Yep, they get backlogged for sure. The last one I sent in ($135) wasn't touched for 8 weeks. I was starting to think USPS lost it...





zmcnutt said:


> Glad I'm not the only one that seems to have wait forever for rebates



Hah, I was just wondering the other day whether I receive all the vouchers for rebates I send in, and that if I was really organized I'd keep notes of what I submitted to see how reliable the system is.

Anyone ever keep track of the rebates you send in to see what the batting average is of getting them back in the mail?  I'm sure Menards is forthright and honorable, but many there are many links in the process that could fail from time to time.  It's actually pretty impressive to me that these systems work even most of the time.


----------



## TDD11

zmcnutt said:


> Has anyone sent in for their rebate on the Tundra from Menards? I see that my $300 rebate has been processed but my 11% rebate has not yet. Anyone else deal with this?





brenndatomu said:


> Yep, they get backlogged for sure. The last one I sent in ($135) wasn't touched for 8 weeks. I was starting to think USPS lost it...(Menards got it all back anyways (plus some) on black Friday )


I'm glad it isn't just me. I kept checking it and wondering why I hadn't seen any sort of update - I mailed mine in around 10/25 and neither rebate shows up yet


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Anyone ever keep track of the rebates you send in to see what the batting average is of getting them back in the mail?


I usually keep the "total" I'm expecting in my memory banks and so far (the last 6-8 years that Menards has been here) they are batting 1000


----------



## trx250r87

I think you can check on Menards rebates using www.rebatesinternational.com


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> I think you can check on Menards rebates using www.rebatesinternational.com


Yep, and if you don't see anything, they will tell you to wait at least six weeks....and then after that they will tell you to wait 8 weeks. What happens after that I don't know because mine showed that it was being processed at that point. It took another week or so to actually get it in my sweaty lil paws


----------



## TDD11

SBI response to the pictures is that that is an update for serial numbers 675 and later and they maintain there is no update to move mine to the top.


----------



## brenndatomu

Well, the good thing about it is that it's a cheap n easy mod to DIY...


----------



## TDD11

Yup.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

So 675 and up is an updated version of the 0 to 675 line. so tell them you want the 0 to 675 update, then the 675 update, then the next update, and the next, and the next.


----------



## TDD11

Its tough. I don't want to come across as a "rude American". I sometimes wonder if all of the reimbursements they've done on cracked stoves is why they seem reluctant now to send any other parts out that do nothing but cost the company.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I sometimes wonder if all of the reimbursements they've done on cracked stoves is why they seem reluctant now to send any other parts out that do nothing but cost the company.


Cheaper than yet another full warranty claim...


----------



## STIHLY DAN

TDD11 said:


> Its tough. I don't want to come across as a "rude American". I sometimes wonder if all of the reimbursements they've done on cracked stoves is why they seem reluctant now to send any other parts out that do nothing but cost the company.



Be as rude as you want. They should not have used the public and their money as beta testing.


----------



## TDD11

Any reason I shouldn't go with an adjustable snap disc? Thinking about the Emerson 3F05-1.

Looks like its going to get a little colder next week. Will be a good test. I know I still need to refine some settings on my temp controller.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Any reason I shouldn't go with an adjustable snap disc?


Not in my mind...anybody else see why not?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I prefer an adjustable over a set.


----------



## Jacksprat

STIHLY DAN said:


> I prefer an adjustable over a set.


just a question   what do you set your adjustable discs at  and  why   thanks


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Jacksprat said:


> just a question   what do you set your adjustable discs at  and  why   thanks



Well, i don't have a tundra, but my unit is adjustable. I have mine set a little lower than factory, works best for me. Location is key, so if yours was on the back and is now on top, most likely it would not be at the same set point.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I like adjustable because it allows for experimenting on what works best for your situation and outside temp.


----------



## crewchief264

TDD11 said:


> I have my temp controller installed - finished it last night. I installed it and the timer exactly like @3fordasho, including the configuration settings.
> 
> It seems like my stove after the initial burn, will bounce between the 255 Low Alarm Limit and the 355 AHYS Alarm Hysteresis somewhat frequently. When it hits the 355 and closes the inlet damper,it seems like only a minute goes by before it hits the alarm again and opens the front damper. I obviously set the AHYS correctly to 100. This is only 3.5 hours into a load of 4 4-5" ash splits- wood is really coaled now.



Input conditions:
House: built 1973 1900 sq ft ranch, on partial crawl space and finished basement with 2 car garage in basement. 2x4 construction, casement pella windows, retro foamed walls, blown in fiberglass in attic about R-80. House is pounded with a west wind due to an open field. Waiting on pines to grow.

Chimney: 15 feet, selkirk insulated ran through the center of the house (where old propane flue ran)
Barometric damper installed and set to .05-.06
Temp controller installed and set high alarm 450, low alarm at 140. Chys 100, Ahys 120. tub timer.
No fan controller, fan set at factory speed 2.
Adjustable Fan temp switch set at 110
Insulated top and sides of the side panels with thermo-tec 1/4 inch 2000 degree aluminum faced insulation. I removed the top and side panels to accomplish this. Duct temps went up about 10 degrees.
Cold air return is set up to pull through the house cold air return just like main furnace.

UPDATE: after catching up on my reading my fan control snap disc is at the back and the factory snap disc turned the fans on way to late and off way too early. I put an adjustable disc in and have it set at 110. It shuts off the fans once it gets down 90... Its a 20 degree swing snap disc. I found at 100 degrees the fans ran to early and hindered reaching secondary burn.

Currently burning chinese elm that is measuring between 12-15%

My food for thought on adjusting your settings:
You will need to adjust your settings based on your cold air return set up and chimney length, and of course what Sq footage your heating. For example with the setting you had above: I never reached the 355 mark. So the damper stayed open and never closed.. I currently have my lo alarm set at 140-160 and the swing is 120 degrees. I have my high alarm set at 450 and Chys 100. I have never gotten flue temps above 375 and I have tried to get it hotter, and I haven't done anything like leaving the door cracked open. It just won't get hotter. but goes into secondary and holds it and cycles nicely with these settings. I am getting 6-10 hours of burn time and great heat output. I say 6 because yesterday was our first below 20 degrees with 15-20mph winds.. the BD was working but the furnace was flying through the wood compared to a non windy day. But the house stayed above 70. I have a magnetic temp gauge on the furnace just to the lower left of the heat exchanger door. After the timer shuts off it will be around 375-550 just depending.... and the the damper will cycle and maintain that as long as there is fuel... I am not having coal build up and am getting great burn times IMHO. Good luck and have fun playing with your settings.... I am sure when I change to different wood I may have to adjust my settings! I have also opened the heat exchanger after a month of burning and I only had a light build of very flaky easily removed black ash.... honetly ran my shop vac  down it and  it sucked it right up.... the lowe flue temps kinda made me wonder if I would have build up.. but so far so good...


----------



## crewchief264

zmcnutt said:


> Has anyone sent in for their rebate on the Tundra from Menards? I see that my $300 rebate has been processed but my 11% rebate has not yet. Anyone else deal with this?



I bought mine before they offered the 11% but I did get the $300 rebate. Long story short I hadn't picked up the furnace yet, and I asked the manager about it at menards... and they gave me a in store credit right there and then for $74.99 because the price had been dropped... I have also received my 300 rebate already. I don't think you will get the 11% because menards will say it wasn't on anything that was onside.. you may have to groan at the manager.... I submitted my 11% rebate but doubt I will see it....


----------



## TDD11

Adjustable snap disc should be in today. I think I may just adjust it lower but leave it at the back of the stove. Why I didn't think of that sooner... I don't know. 

Also, loaded my stove today and set the timer. After the timer set up, and with flue temps between 500 and 550, I wondered why my damper was still open. I tapped it and it closed. First time I have observed that.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Wasn't that one of the issue's on the 1st generation? Something about honing the linkage, or replacing the cotter pin.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Wasn't that one of the issue's on the 1st generation? Something about honing the linkage, or replacing the cotter pin.


Yup, just need to tweak the linkage, some have even used just a dab of high temp lube on the pivoty places


----------



## crewchief264

TDD11 said:


> Adjustable snap disc should be in today. I think I may just adjust it lower but leave it at the back of the stove. Why I didn't think of that sooner... I don't know.
> 
> Also, loaded my stove today and set the timer. After the timer set up, and with flue temps between 500 and 550, I wondered why my damper was still open. I tapped it and it closed. First time I have observed that.




Also check that your damper door is fully closing. I noticed mine wasn't fully closing before I even fired it up the first time... the damper (the arm that extends behind the cover) was actually contacting the damper linkage cover. So I removed the cover and out came a round and square file to fine tune the damper to fully close. anyhow just something else to check. I haven't had issues (knock on seasoned fire wood) with my linkage.

Ps getting ready for our first winter snow storm........ and the furnace is fired up... running great. This tundra is a huge upgrade from the hot blast. I would never go back to the hot blast.


----------



## zmcnutt

Finally got everything hooked up and fired for the first time. Just loaded with a small load to get the feel for how the stove burns. Hopefully I can order temp controller set up this week and really get into burning some wood


----------



## TallBoy

Hey All,

my secondary burn tubes are looking ROUGH! after three years of burning they are warped and dont really perform as the should. i suspect some of the air holes are clogged with debris or corrosion. i was planning on replacing them , they (drolet) sell the main 3 for $60, and the front tube (singular) for $60 bucks also...so $120 for 4 tubes.  wondering if anyone has any words of wisdom when it comes to the secondary burn tubes. replace all 4 or just the back 3? I didnt locate this topic in the previously threads so im asking now. 

thanks!


----------



## laynes69

Those tubes should be under warranty.


----------



## TDD11

Looks like a low of 3°F Wednesday night and -2°F on Thursday night, Will be a good test. Installed my new adjustable snap disc yesterday and blocked off a duct in my basement. House went from 71°F to 78-79°F upstairs in less than an hour, after a reload of ash. 

Still need to have a backdraft damper installed on my propane furnace but for now I blocked off the filter housing on the furnace and shut it off. It did improve the amount of airflow to the ground floor. I'm getting there slowly..


----------



## DoubleB

TallBoy said:


> after three years of burning they are warped and dont really perform as the should. i suspect some of the air holes are clogged with debris or corrosion.



Do you want replacements due to the warpage?  Or the corrosion?  You might be able to clean out the corrosion yourself, even with tools (I don't think these are as critical as carburetor jets).  Are you sure its corrosion?  It might be fine ash buildup.  

Can you describe your burning habits?  If you have corrosion and uncleanable junk on your secondaries and they're warped, I wonder if your wood is on the wet side and the damper is open a lot to compensate?  I ask, just so the same thing doesn't happen quickly again.


----------



## brenndatomu

Noticing some interesting things with ole Tundra recently...I have been burning some slab wood that my in-laws donated to me when they moved recently...and it seems to burn nice and hot, but still seems to last almost as long and regular splits! My old Yukon would be lucky to go 3-4 hours on a load of slabs, let a lone 8-12 hours!
And another thing is, these things love dry Pine! I have a ton of construction cut-offs to burn up from a large project at work so I have been putting a piece or two on top of my regular loads...it burns hot! My supply duct air temps run about 5* hotter for an hour or so when I do this


----------



## brenndatomu

Another tip for anybody just starting out with this whole wood heat thing, load according to the weather forecast. I have 5 basic strategies, starting with warmer weather and working down to "Polar Vortex"
1. Load light every 12 hours. On a light load I load the wood in an X shape (corner to corner) alternating the direction of each layer so you end up with about half the wood, but it is still "to the top" It burn hot this way, just not for as long.
2. Load full every 12 hours. A full load is basically 2 side by side rows even to the top of the loading door.
3. Load light very 8 hrs.
4. Load full every 8 hrs.
5. And last but not least, for those really cold nights, fill 'er up, as much as you can get in without damaging the baffle/tubes!

And this list doesn't even account for all the different types of wood that can be used, as far as softwood/hardwood.
Doing this wood heat thing well is a real skill! Well, except for those Kuuma cheaters!


----------



## DoubleB

I'll add, for those polar vortex days, that my number 6 on the list is:

6.  Fill 'er up.  Once off-gassing is complete, open damper, rake the pile of coals forward, and throw a small split or two on top.  Since it's mostly coals, it won't get too hot with the damper full open, but you get more heat than just coals.  Also, it extends time until the next full load, so that there are fewer coals when you load the next full load, which leaves more room for new firewood.


----------



## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> I think I may just adjust it lower but leave it at the back of the stove. Why I didn't think of that sooner... I don't know.




I would put it where it accurately represents and is able to quickly sense change in temp.  This is more than likely going to be above center of the firebox.  It will make your turn on/off temps more consistent.  In my experience, putting it off to the side makes it a bit sluggish when compared to be right above the source of heat.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> I would put it where it accurately represents and is able to quickly sense change in temp.  This is more than likely going to be above center of the firebox.  It will make your turn on/off temps more consistent.  In my experience, putting it off to the side makes it a bit sluggish when compared to be right above the source of heat.


Absolutely correct. I had the adjustable switch in the back early on, it works better mounted in the newer position up top.


----------



## TDD11

I agree, I think that it would more accurately turn the blower on - sooner. Otherwise, I assume once there is airflow throughout the air jacket, that with better mixing, at least the shut off would be more representative. For now.. it already makes a huge difference, and is a clean installation until I decide to order some parts for a clean installation on the top front of the stove (box to conceal snap disc and conduit).


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Another tip for anybody just starting out with this whole wood heat thing, load according to the weather forecast. I have 5 basic strategies, starting with warmer weather and working down to "Polar Vortex"
> 1. Load light every 12 hours. On a light load I load the wood in an X shape (corner to corner) alternating the direction of each layer so you end up with about half the wood, but it is still "to the top" It burn hot this way, just not for as long.
> 2. Load full every 12 hours. A full load is basically 2 side by side rows even to the top of the loading door.
> 3. Load light very 8 hrs.
> 4. Load full every 8 hrs.
> 5. And last but not least, for those really cold nights, fill 'er up, as much as you can get in without damaging the baffle/tubes!
> 
> And this list doesn't even account for all the different types of wood that can be used, as far as softwood/hardwood.
> Doing this wood heat thing well is a real skill! Well, except for those Kuuma cheaters!



Actually fairly similar..... with all your add on's you may be at risk of being a cheater too.


----------



## jb6l6gc

hey guys quick question. I have been running mine pretty solid for the last month. 
One issue I am having is when the furnace is not completely warmed up the air inlet damper is binding up and not closing comepletely, once shes at higher temps it seems to close completely.
I took off the damper control cover but didnt see anything out of sorts. I know from reading a few people have had issues with this, where should I bee looking for the problem?


----------



## DoubleB

I, and I think everyone else, that had the hanging open damper found the problem was under the cover on the front right side of the furnace. You noticed that the connecting rod is bent into a loop at the end, the loop pulling the damper flap open.  The loop also can make a flat in which the damper flap rests upon (partially) closing, instead of allowing the flap to rotate all the way shut.  I believe that problem has always been fixed on here by just tweaking the loop a little bit to prevent the flap from getting caught in the loop.

Of course there's a chance that you have a different source causing the non-closing problem.  Can you clarify whether you could see the flap stay open when you had the cover off?  If not, I'd just leave the cover off until you can witness the problem occur, and possibly see if the loop is the source.  Otherwise, it might be that the connecting rod is slightly too short and needs to be placed into a different (closer) slot in the damper motor in the control box in the rear of the furnace.

By the way, I didn't find a picture of the loop in this thread.  If you have a chance to take a picture for others to see, that would be helpful.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah, it has to be the linkage pivot, or 1 of the 2 flap pivot pins. About the only possibilities unless the flap arm is rubbing the linkage cover. Like DB said ^^^, leave the cover off and watch it a bit.


----------



## TDD11

What a difference some wet wood makes. Have some year old split ash that wasn't covered up the best. HUGE difference compared to the dry ash I was burning. Even on a good bed of coals, 30 minutes on the timer was not really enough and there was no chance of secondary burn. I realize it'll shorten my burn time but I moved my low alarm temp from 215 to 260. 

I've got a friend who sells firewood and said he's got 10 loads of 4 year old split/stacked/covered ash that he would trade me load for load for fresh cut/split/stacked, assuming I do all of the labor. I told him he's got a deal. Get me through this winter with dry wood and the rest will be a breeze.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> What a difference some wet wood makes


You preachin to the choir brotha!


----------



## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> What a difference some wet wood makes.



Don't tell an OWB guy this.  He'll continue to tell you how he gets better burn times with wet wood.  Then, if you're like me, you'll try explaining how you'll get more BTU's out of dry wood.  Then you'll just get that blank stare..........  Been there done that with a Home Depot employee.  Now I just keep my mouth shut.


----------



## Jacksprat

well folks it is -16F here in Ontario and my house is at 72F after a 11 hour burn still a very nice bed of coals and took about 10 minutes to get the Tundra back up to temp  this is great  still have lots of extra heat available if needed


----------



## jb6l6gc

Jacksprat said:


> well folks it is -16F here in Ontario and my house is at 72F after a 11 hour burn still a very nice bed of coals and took about 10 minutes to get the Tundra back up to temp  this is great  still have lots of extra heat available if needed


Yep close to the same here however my house drops down over night a bit as it's on the big side for the heatmax!


----------



## Jacksprat

i cheated a bit had the house about 76F at 8 oclock pm  so had a bit of a cushion for over the night


----------



## brenndatomu

Jacksprat said:


> i cheated a bit had the house about 76F at 8 oclock pm  so had a bit of a cushion for over the night


That does make a difference...if you can keep the tstat from calling for more heat (keep the intake damper closed) it makes a big difference in burn time. 
That's why I like using my temp controller so much, because it will keep the damper closed once the firebox is up to temp and chugging along early on, then toward the end of the burn when the tstat starts to call for heat, the temp controller allows the damper to open, which helps keep the duct temps up and burns down the coals.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Jacksprat said:


> well folks it is -16F here in Ontario and my house is at 72F after a 11 hour burn still a very nice bed of coals and took about 10 minutes to get the Tundra back up to temp  this is great  still have lots of extra heat available if needed



very impressive!    You must have a very well insulated home. 

We were at -11°F this morning and the house was 70°F at the end of a 9 hour burn.  Was 73°F when we went to bed at 10pm.  This house is a pig though....doing the heat loss calc found on this site it came to 65K BTU/hr at 0° outside and keeping the house at 70°F.  My 75,000 BTU/hr LP furnace ran almost 30 hours out of a possible 60 hours when we were gone this past weekend just to keep the main house 66°F in roughly 17°F weather.  Basement is not heated with LP, but is heated by the wood furnace.


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> Noticing some interesting things with ole Tundra recently...I have been burning some slab wood that my in-laws donated to me when they moved recently...and it seems to burn nice and hot, but still seems to last almost as long and regular splits! My old Yukon would be lucky to go 3-4 hours on a load of slabs, let a lone 8-12 hours!
> And another thing is, these things love dry Pine! I have a ton of construction cut-offs to burn up from a large project at work so I have been putting a piece or two on top of my regular loads...it burns hot! My supply duct air temps run about 5* hotter for an hour or so when I do this


Brenn, you must think I was crazy or something at the time. You don't recall me saying all I burn is pine and how great the tundra was performing, this was around the time everyone was comparing duct temps and you wondered how mine were so high. Maybe you were thinking I was running it hard but all I was doing was burning pine. These stoves are so efficient that one will do very well with pine. Now that my wood variety has expanded when I end up with coal build up due to hardwood my next couple loads will be of just pine.Don't tell everyone or the price of pine may go up.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> Brenn, you must think I was crazy or something at the time. You don't recall me saying all I burn is pine and how great the tundra was performing, this was around the time everyone was comparing duct temps and you wondered how mine were so high. Maybe you were thinking I was running it hard but all I was doing was burning pine. These stoves are so efficient that one will do very well with pine. Now that my wood variety has expanded when I end up with coal build up due to hardwood my next couple loads will be of just pine.Don't tell everyone or the price of pine may go up.


No way man, I totally had you in mind when I was doing this and I meant to mention you in my post. Sorry! 
These things completely fly in the face of old school burning techniques and tricks


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> No way man, I totally had you in mind when I was doing this and I meant to mention you in my post. Sorry!
> These things completely fly in the face of old school burning techniques and tricks


I just filled up the wood bin today in the basement, going to be a cold one tomorrow. Now that I have hardwood for this year when I do bring wood in I always try to bring in a 50/50 mix of pine/hardwood. People always tell me don't waste your time with the softwood it's not worth it. I just smile, sometimes you really can't teach an old dog new tricks. Only thing I like the hardwood for is long overnight burns so I still have nice coals left in the morning (8hours +) aside from that I get plenty from the pine.


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> when I do bring wood in I always try to bring in a 50/50 mix of pine/hardwood. People always tell me don't waste your time with the softwood it's not worth it. I just smile


I busted my hump getting a load of hard Maple and Pin Oak last Saturday...by the time I was done my back hurt too bad to "top off" the load with some of the pine that was laying there too...I do have some Pine in the stacks though...its cut shorter to fit in the fireplace stove...may hafta tap into that for some Tundra snacks


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> around the time everyone was comparing duct temps and you wondered how mine were so high


I don't recall what kind of temps you were seeing, but I know I'm running _at least_ 15* higher duct temps after all my repairs, mods, tweaks and now wood species. Get into the mid and upper 120s for a while after loading
(and BTW, that's with the intake damper closed too)
I bet I could get the temps up a lil more if I pulled return air off the ceiling like @JRHAWK9  has talked about...and maybe pulled some air from the front of the furnace where it is so blasted hot (like the Caddy does) (I have the metal sitting next to the Tundra for it...just haven't settled on a design yet)


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Its a return, flex will be just fine.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Its a return, flex will be just fine.


Yeah for the run I'd do flex, but I still need some sort of a...uuuum, plenum(?) around the front of the furnace to collect all that hot air...


----------



## Builderml

brenndatomu said:


> I don't recall what kind of temps you were seeing, but I know I'm running _at least_ 15* higher duct temps after all my repairs, mods, tweaks and now wood species. Get into the mid and upper 120s for a while after loading
> (and BTW, that's with the intake damper closed too)
> I bet I could get the temps up a lil more if I pulled return air off the ceiling like @JRHAWK9  has talked about...and maybe pulled some air from the front of the furnace where it is so blasted hot (like the Caddy does) (I have the metal sitting next to the Tundra for it...just haven't settled on a design yet)


I think your correct it wasn't duct temps it was surface temps in different areas across the top of the unit.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah for the run I'd do flex, but I still need some sort of a...uuuum, plenum(?) around the front of the furnace to collect all that hot air...



Nah, look at jrhawk9's avatar. No plenum needed. A bit ugly though.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Nah, look at jrhawk9's avatar


Hey @JRHAWK9 , have any better pics of what you did there?


----------



## JRHAWK9

lol....better pics will only, like Stihly said, make it look even uglier.  It's definitely a function over form setup.

Here's photos of my setup before I got the cold air plenum and tied the "manifold" into it. I ended up wiring up a manual switch to turn the blower off when loading to keep it from sucking in who knows what. One also has to make sure your doors are adjusted so you won't be pulling in unwanted smoke. We do have CO detectors up stairs just in case.


----------



## garmford

Mine is a little broader version of jr's but I do believe it makes a difference. Is it ugly? Heck yeah! What do I care? It's in the corner of the basement where nobody goes. I'm all about getting more bang for my buck.


----------



## jb6l6gc

DoubleB said:


> I, and I think everyone else, that had the hanging open damper found the problem was under the cover on the front right side of the furnace. You noticed that the connecting rod is bent into a loop at the end, the loop pulling the damper flap open.  The loop also can make a flat in which the damper flap rests upon (partially) closing, instead of allowing the flap to rotate all the way shut.  I believe that problem has always been fixed on here by just tweaking the loop a little bit to prevent the flap from getting caught in the loop.
> 
> Of course there's a chance that you have a different source causing the non-closing problem.  Can you clarify whether you could see the flap stay open when you had the cover off?  If not, I'd just leave the cover off until you can witness the problem occur, and possibly see if the loop is the source.  Otherwise, it might be that the connecting rod is slightly too short and needs to be placed into a different (closer) slot in the damper motor in the control box in the rear of the furnace.
> 
> By the way, I didn't find a picture of the loop in this thread.  If you have a chance to take a picture for others to see, that would be helpful.


I believe mine is being caused by the door itself eventually moving a bit to the left causing rod to bind in notch figured I could put a washer on the right side to keep that from happening! Going to change my ducts to side to side too once it's warmer on Saturday.


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## jb6l6gc

garmford said:


> View attachment 190485
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is a little broader version of jr's but I do believe it makes a difference. Is it ugly? Heck yeah! What do I care? It's in the corner of the basement where nobody goes. I'm all about getting more bang for my buck.


Wouldn't a return duct that close to air inlets on unit violate code. Co risk?


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## brenndatomu

@JRHAWK9  and @garmford , you guys think that works well enough to justify doing it? (if you had it to do again) Also, didn't you say you were pulling warm air off the ceiling too @JRHAWK9 ?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> @JRHAWK9  and @garmford , you guys think that works well enough to justify doing it? (if you had it to do again) Also, didn't you say you were pulling warm air off the ceiling too @JRHAWK9 ?



heck yeah I would do it again!  It works great for me.  Yes, I basically boxed out my cold air intake at the blower box and ran it straight up in the air and ended it near the ceiling of the basement.  I'm basically pulling in warm air off the ceiling and mixing it with even warmer air off the face of the furnace.  I connected the "warm air manifold" from the face of the furnace into the boxed out part of the blower box.  Now, keep in mind the Kuuma has one area right on the outside of where a lot of the gassification is taking place right above the door where it's warmer than the rest of the face.   This is why I have mine directed right at that area.  Your Tundra will be different, but I'd try to find the "hot spot" on your Tundra and take the air off that area.

I attached a photo from a month ago or so showing some temps.  I have an indoor/outdoor thermometer and have put the outdoor sensor INSIDE the blower box of the Kuuma so I can monitor return air temps.  Yes it's securely fastened so it won't get eaten and spit upstairs by the blower....lol  Top is return air temp and bottom is basement temp.  My return temp is always more than the temp of the house.  It's usually right around 10°-13° more in the middle of the burn, but does get as high as 15°+ more.  As you can see, it reached a max of 89° in this particular 24 hour window.  Highest I've seen it in the middle of a burn is 90°.  The low of 64° is from back when I was just doing a fire a day so the basement cooled down to 64° that day.

Before I did this I was sucking in cold basement air.  The highest my cold air temp got before I did all this was like 68°, even when the house/basement was mid 70's.  So I went from 65-68 return air to 85+ return air.  Even at the end of the burn cycle I'm still seeing high 70's/low 80's for return air temp.  Made a big difference in my supply air temps.  It also benefits my water coil not having such cold air blowing on it all the time.  It also keeps my blower running pretty much non-stop, even between loads.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Still best would be to run actual returns to the space your heating then maybe steal from the front. A complete install always works best. But if that is not possible jrhawk9's way would be 2nd.


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## garmford

I'm glad I did it. My results aren't as significant as jr's but its still good. I'm guessing that I've got less than $30 invested so if it didn't work it's not a huge loss.


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## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> Still best would be to run actual returns to the space your heating then maybe steal from the front. A complete install always works best. But if that is not possible jrhawk9's way would be 2nd.



Unless you want the ability to run both furnaces at the same time in extreme weather when ones home has a very high heat load.


----------



## Digger79

TallBoy said:


> Hey All,
> 
> my secondary burn tubes are looking ROUGH! after three years of burning they are warped and dont really perform as the should. i suspect some of the air holes are clogged with debris or corrosion. i was planning on replacing them , they (drolet) sell the main 3 for $60, and the front tube (singular) for $60 bucks also...so $120 for 4 tubes.  wondering if anyone has any words of wisdom when it comes to the secondary burn tubes. replace all 4 or just the back 3? I didnt locate this topic in the previously threads so im asking now.
> 
> thanks!


I once upon a time built a re burning barrel stove. I made intake tubes from galvanized steel tubes. worked well.


----------



## Digger79

I am finding the newer model Tundra I to run much cooler. Its kinda tough to get it to stay hot it seems. I mean I can really crank it up with some hot burning woods and the fan cools it way too long after the surge portion of the burn is over. I have this idea of possible installing a small air injection device controlled by a 2nd temp controller. To burn a hotter fire thru the last several hours of a burn when we are burning off coals. The time it takes to burn off coals properly before reloading I am finding house temps can drop too far during colder temps. I realize this will shorten the burn times causing more frequent loading but I don't need 14 hr burns with the last 4 hrs being basically no heat. Id rather have hot 10 hr burns. Building a smaller fire and setting temp controller higher on damper does not work. Air injection for that last 1/4 of a burn would be awesome!


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## Digger79

possibly designing a stove as well with an angle so wood slides to the front pulling coals forward possibly as the load burns. I wish I had a device inside that could shift the coal forward toward the end of the burn. Thats gunna be tough so maybe air injection is possible.


----------



## Digger79

Basically the temp controller for the damper is kinda worthless as with this new model I have exceeded reasonable temps multiple times with thermostat, timer switch and the high limit and fan switch won't let it over fire. Not that I want to over fire it but its too much. This thing needs a little juice added to it. You can run the updated model Tundra 1 "Balls Out" which is best for efficiency of heat from wood, on auto pilot or with thermostat.


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> You can run the updated model Tundra 1 "Balls Out" which is best for efficiency of heat from wood


Once the firebox is up to temp, running "damper open" is bad for efficiency as far as capturing that heat and putting it in the house...sounds like you could benefit from a speed controller on your blower...made a big difference for me. It changes the speed of the blower to try to maintain a temp...the way mine is set up it is running full tilt by 117* duct temp...then slows down as the temps drop, finally shutting off around 93* (it is running at about 60% speed at 93*) then it restarts the blower as soon as the temp creeps back up around 10* (103*) It can be tuned for your setup...I love mine...thinking about putting one on my Drolet 1400i fan too


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Once the firebox is up to temp, running "damper open" is bad for efficiency as far as capturing that heat and putting it in the house...sounds like you could benefit from a speed controller on your blower...made a big difference for me. It changes the speed of the blower to try to maintain a temp...the way mine is set up it is running full tilt by 117* duct temp...then slows down as the temps drop, finally shutting off around 93* (it is running at about 60% speed at 93*) then it restarts the blower as soon as the temp creeps back up around 10* (103*) It can be tuned for your setup...I love mine...thinking about putting one on my Drolet 1400i fan too


I've played with the fan speed on it multiple times. I want a shorter hotter burn than it can achieve as its setup. I come home to too many coals. I messed with these things enough I really feel finding some way to increase the burn of cycle would work well. Im home every 8-10 hrs and on cold days would like the higher heat with shorter burn. Hence a temp controlled method of doing this beyond just main damper. I'm thinking just a low speed blower connected to the bottom intake hole with some tubing. I have messed around with blowing air in their for lighting week coals and works very well.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Once the firebox is up to temp, running "damper open" is bad for efficiency as far as capturing that heat and putting it in the house...sounds like you could benefit from a speed controller on your blower...made a big difference for me. It changes the speed of the blower to try to maintain a temp...the way mine is set up it is running full tilt by 117* duct temp...then slows down as the temps drop, finally shutting off around 93* (it is running at about 60% speed at 93*) then it restarts the blower as soon as the temp creeps back up around 10* (103*) It can be tuned for your setup...I love mine...thinking about putting one on my Drolet 1400i fan too


Heck I'll probably just drill out the bottom intake hole a little bit. I did that with a Defender stove and was happy with the results.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Heck I'll probably just drill out the bottom intake hole a little bit. I did that with a Defender stove and was happy with the results.


ehh with Tundra I guess I'd open up the main intake a little rather than the lower intake.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Once the firebox is up to temp, running "damper open" is bad for efficiency as far as capturing that heat and putting it in the house...sounds like you could benefit from a speed controller on your blower...made a big difference for me. It changes the speed of the blower to try to maintain a temp...the way mine is set up it is running full tilt by 117* duct temp...then slows down as the temps drop, finally shutting off around 93* (it is running at about 60% speed at 93*) then it restarts the blower as soon as the temp creeps back up around 10* (103*) It can be tuned for your setup...I love mine...thinking about putting one on my Drolet 1400i fan too


To be clear too I'm talking about for the last few hours of a burn no when the firebox is up to temp.


----------



## Digger79

Another solution for me, my timing and heat demand far as loading goes.. Could simply be trying the grate to raise the whole fire closer to the top thus burning the hotter smaller/shorter load I want. I find trying to burn small hot fires difficult as the fire box seems too tall. I've built towers on purpose to get loads burning closer to the top and it achieves great results. Not that I need it cause yes the i1400 inside basically drives the house up to 75 deg on a few sticks and twigs but what else am I going to to at the end of Feb?


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> Heck I'll probably just drill out the bottom intake hole a little bit. I did that with a Defender stove and was happy with the results.



I'd caution against that.  Your particular setup doesn't have gravity flow, which already makes things dangerous during a power outage.  Opening up that hole will make it much worse, since that hole is the main driver for combustion rate with the damper closed.  And, air flowing through a hole increases a lot for even a slight diameter increase.  And, it's not a reversible mod, unless you weld or plug it back up some other way.

I'm not convinced about a fan of a powered air injector to that air hole, but at least that cuts out during an outage, and you can undo it if it doesn't work.  I'd start with that.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> I'd caution against that.  Your particular setup doesn't have gravity flow, which already makes things dangerous during a power outage.  Opening up that hole will make it much worse, since that hole is the main driver for combustion rate with the damper closed.  And, air flowing through a hole increases a lot for even a slight diameter increase.  And, it's not a reversible mod, unless you weld or plug it back up some other way.
> 
> I'm not convinced about a fan of a powered air injector to that air hole, but at least that cuts out during an outage, and you can undo it if it doesn't work.  I'd start with that.


Yeah I mentioned on second thought adjusting the damper intake back to the larger cut outs would make more sense based on the function of Tundra. Your right. I think I may just try putting a grate in an burning smaller hotter loads closer to the top to achieve hotter 8 -10 hr burns at higher heat rather than 14 hr burns. I think this is what I want and realize it will consume a little more wood but will remain on the proper dialed in setup running with damper closed for most the burn.  Its those last few hours of a huge load that just seem worthless no matter how low the fan is set for speed or turn on but if I load to early we of course wind up with a pile of coals half way up the fire box. lol.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> Yeah I mentioned on second thought adjusting the damper intake back to the larger cut outs would make more sense based on the function of Tundra. Your right. I think I may just try putting a grate in an burning smaller hotter loads closer to the top to achieve hotter 8 -10 hr burns at higher heat rather than 14 hr burns. I think this is what I want and realize it will consume a little more wood but will remain on the proper dialed in setup running with damper closed for most the burn.  Its those last few hours of a huge load that just seem worthless no matter how low the fan is set for speed or turn on but if I load to early we of course wind up with a pile of coals half way up the fire box. lol.


Besides putting a grate in is the quickest, easiest, most easily reversible modification I will have ever done with this setup. lol.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> Its those last few hours of a huge load that just seem worthless no matter how low the fan is set for speed


That is exactly where the speed controller shines the most...the blower stays on low for extended times instead of just a quick blast and then off again for 5-10 minutes. That and the blower can be wired to a higher speed than would otherwise be optimal...then you can take better advantage of the intense heat available at the beginning of a burn.
And just FYI, the grate thing has been tried by several people...then abandoned...
Powered air injection in the boost air hole could be interesting...I have wondered about adding an additional rear boost air hole too...would be easy enough to plug back up if it didn't work out...


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> Its those last few hours of a huge load that just seem worthless



Yea I agree.  Hate to wait to start another load when it's cold, and hate shoveling out and wasting coals.

One thing I've been doing is using the flat top of the rake to scrape the entire coal/ash mix to the front, then using the tines to push the larger coals to the rear again.  This lets the coals continue to burn and give me heat on the next load, and the small coals burn out of the ashes at the front, which I scoop out before reloading.  I have very few coals in my ashes this way.



Digger79 said:


> I think I may just try putting a grate in



I look forward to hearing your results.  Recall that KARB2014 tried that and reported on pages 30, 53, and 54.  He seemed to like it.  I never knew how he practically scooped out ashes, though.  Would love to hear what you think.


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## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Once the firebox is up to temp, running "damper open" is bad for efficiency as far as capturing that heat and putting it in the house...sounds like you could benefit from a speed controller on your blower...made a big difference for me. It changes the speed of the blower to try to maintain a temp...the way mine is set up it is running full tilt by 117* duct temp...then slows down as the temps drop, finally shutting off around 93* (it is running at about 60% speed at 93*) then it restarts the blower as soon as the temp creeps back up around 10* (103*) It can be tuned for your setup...I love mine...thinking about putting one on my Drolet 1400i fan too




this is the cats a s s.  I really would like to try this on mine.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Yea I agree.  Hate to wait to start another load when it's cold, and hate shoveling out and wasting coals.
> 
> One thing I've been doing is using the flat top of the rake to scrape the entire coal/ash mix to the front, then using the tines to push the larger coals to the rear again.  This lets the coals continue to burn and give me heat on the next load, and the small coals burn out of the ashes at the front, which I scoop out before reloading.  I have very few coals in my ashes this way.
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to hearing your results.  Recall that KARB2014 tried that and reported on pages 30, 53, and 54.  He seemed to like it.  I never knew how he practically scooped out ashes, though.  Would love to hear what you think.


I think the idea, for me anyhow.. is to shorten the load time some basically raise the bottom of the stove putting fire closer to the top and making it a shorter hotter burning load. Same could be done with fire brick. The only hang up I see in this is getting above the air intake hole at the bottom of the firebox. Seeing I use the temp controller and the high limit is set so low, seems likely opening the side intakes a little bit could help me achieve what I want while still maintain a larger load. Now of course this is going backwards from SBI's factory modifications to keep stoves from cracking but basically what they ultimately have done is made it run cooler period. I need to juice it back up a little. lol.


----------



## Digger79

Digger79 said:


> I think the idea, for me anyhow.. is to shorten the load time some basically raise the bottom of the stove putting fire closer to the top and making it a shorter hotter burning load. Same could be done with fire brick. The only hang up I see in this is getting above the air intake hole at the bottom of the firebox. Seeing I use the temp controller and the high limit is set so low, seems likely opening the side intakes a little bit could help me achieve what I want while still maintain a larger load. Now of course this is going backwards from SBI's factory modifications to keep stoves from cracking but basically what they ultimately have done is made it run cooler period. I need to juice it back up a little. lol.


sorry the side intakes on the main damper. SBI choked them down a bit thru out their mod process.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> this is the cats a s s.  I really would like to try this on mine.


The Kuuma kinda already has something similar...I'm not sure you would see as much difference as i did just because of the way your machine works.
BTW, I checked my furnace room temps this morn, 69* on the wall at the floor...79* on the wall at the ceiling...seems like I need to do some "preheated return air" experiments


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> The Kuuma kinda already has something similar...I'm not sure you would see as much difference as i did just because of the way your machine works.
> BTW, I checked my furnace room temps this morn, 69* on the wall at the floor...79* on the wall at the ceiling...seems like I need to do some "preheated return air" experiments




I think it would be a bit better.  As in theory the higher I turn the heat knob on the Kuuma the higher the blower speed will be and as it dies down the blower speed will come down as well.  I think it will help maintain better "equilibrium" between air jacket temps and blower speed.

those temps are probably pretty close to what I was seeing before I did what I did.  The ceiling temps will come down some after you start using that air.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

JRHAWK9 said:


> Unless you want the ability to run both furnaces at the same time in extreme weather when ones home has a very high heat load.



2 separate returns will still allow this.


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## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> 2 separate returns will still allow this.



This is true, but for the average homeowner, running two completely separate returns would be a big pain.


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## STIHLY DAN

Unfortunately for you, you are by far not an average homeowner.  M.r jrhawk9, self made "wood heating engineer guru."


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## laynes69

Ours share a single return and they operate just fine together if need be. For us though the woodfurnace carries the house 99% of the time. I think the year before last I ran the LP 3 or 4 cycles, with a single cycle a day. Our system is setup that when either operate, the flow is cut in the opposite direction, but if they both operate the butterfly damper over the woodfurnace opens for the woodfurnace and for the central furnace. The previews setup contained zero dampers which was setup in series. With that setup because the woodfurnace would go out overnight, both would operate all the time.


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## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> Unfortunately for you, you are by far not an average homeowner.  M.r jrhawk9, self made "wood heating engineer guru."




lol, maybe in a Red Green way.  I'm not even close to some of you more knowledgeable guys on this site.


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## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> For us though the woodfurnace carries the house 99% of the time. I think the year before last I ran the LP 3 or 4 cycles, with a single cycle a day. Our system is setup that when either operate, the flow is cut in the opposite direction, but if they both operate the butterfly damper over the woodfurnace opens for the woodfurnace and for the central furnace. The previews setup contained zero dampers which was setup in series. With that setup because the woodfurnace would go out overnight, both would operate all the time.



same here.  Last winter, not counting the days we were gone, according to my spreadsheet the wood furnace handled 99.4% of the total BTU's.  I did the same thing, I let it cycle once a day if needed....it was always in the morning at the end of a burn (after a re-load) for an hour or so with both blowers running at the same time.  Otherwise including the time we were gone it handled 96% of the total BTU's.

Having them both share the same return, won't they "fight" over the return air and one possibly scavenge from the other?  That would be my concern.


----------



## laynes69

There's a possibility, but either unit has never overheated or stalled when operating. Our woodfurnace has two plenums like a central furnace. The dampers are preweighted, so there's no electronics involved. I'm with the KISS method.


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## JRHAWK9

Nothing wrong with that as long as it works.  

There's a possibility either tomorrow morning and/or Monday morning I'll be running both for a bit.  Supposed to be -12° tonight with a high of -3° tomorrow and -15° Sunday night with -30°+ wind chills.  We are normally a few degrees colder than the forecast due to being in a more rural area though, so we -may- be pushing -20° come Monday morning.  Wish those damn Canadians would just keep their arctic air on their side of the border.


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## STIHLY DAN

Pfft. Keep that cold air your way. We have no need for it.


----------



## Digger79

JRHAWK9 said:


> same here.  Last winter, not counting the days we were gone, according to my spreadsheet the wood furnace handled 99.4% of the total BTU's.  I did the same thing, I let it cycle once a day if needed....it was always in the morning at the end of a burn (after a re-load) for an hour or so with both blowers running at the same time.  Otherwise including the time we were gone it handled 96% of the total BTU's.
> 
> Having them both share the same return, won't they "fight" over the return air and one possibly scavenge from the other?  That would be my concern.


  I suppose you could turn one fan off and check the pressure at the ducts to see if its slowing one or the other. I bet the difference is minor or none. So long enough air can get through I'd think air speed would simply increase in the return line to the split out to each fan. Should pull a little harder to suck the extra required air through the same size pipe. I dunno lol.


----------



## Digger79

Messed with the fan switch a little bit on the Updated Tundra model 1. Used a few layers of high temp foil tape underneath and removed rear screw. This caused the switch to fire a little later letting firebox get hotter during end of burns. We'll see how this works for now. Seems it is a minor adjustment so far.


----------



## Digger79




----------



## jb6l6gc

Just switched from front to back config to side to side.  Duct temps seem much lower and flue temps higher  I was running fan on high when front to back. I started on high with side to side and have gone down two speeds to medium low incrementally checkin temps by feel each time, still noticing it doesn't seem to be stripping the heat from the unit as well and it's taking allot longer to bring up house temp. I don't understand as according to the manual side by side is their preferred config. Is this because it keeps flue temps higher and doesn't strip as much heat? I didn't add any more elbows or change ducting that much to create restriction.  Ugh this is so frustrating as I figured it would be a huge improvement and I just invested a bunch of my time and a little money on it but would have to spend more to change it back:-(. Any advice?


----------



## DoubleB

jb6l6gc said:


> Just switched from front to back config to side to side. Duct temps seem much lower and flue temps higher I was running fan on high when front to back. I started on high with side to side and have gone down two speeds to medium low incrementally checkin temps by feel each time, still noticing it doesn't seem to be stripping the heat from the unit as well and it's taking allot longer to bring up house temp. I don't understand as according to the manual side by side is their preferred config. Is this because it keeps flue temps higher and doesn't strip as much heat? I didn't add any more elbows or change ducting that much to create restriction. Ugh this is so frustrating as I figured it would be a huge improvement and I just invested a bunch of my time and a little money on it but would have to spend more to change it back:-(. Any advice?



I don't know the answer, but a few thoughts:

-I'd run a few more loads or days, just to see if you have consistently lower temps.  Sometimes I didn't pack as much wood in as I thought, or it's not as dry as the previous day's load, or there's more small stuff in there that gives quicker hotter heat, or the species is different, or the return air temp is colder than usual (it's really cold here today), etc.  There's no harm in giving it a few days to confirm if it's worse.

-I originally had front and back config because the installers didn't do it the way I asked them.  I ran it that way a few months before I changed it to side-to-side.  I didn't notice a performance difference (but maybe I wasn't observant enough).

-The manual says to use side-to-side for "optimum efficiency", which we would think means maximum heat (efficiency), but I suppose you're right, that optimum might be less heat if it improves something else more.  Given SBI's non-satisfying technical answers to other questions, your guess is probably as good as theirs.  

-I feel your pain.  I've done some mods that were busts, I'm in season #3 and still fiddling with things that sometimes feel (and are) wasted.  But nothing risked = nothing gained.


----------



## brenndatomu

I'll throw a couple thought in too.
I'd also say to live with it a little while to get a feel of the real world results (house warmer or cooler)
Also, I don't like "guessing" on temps, I'd get some real thermometer reading so you have better data to work with there. "Feel" can lie sometimes.
Back when these things came out and there was a thread over on the other site by a SBI employee, the duct placement was discussed and I believe he said the airflow through the unit was best side/side and it pulls heat off all 3 HE tubes better instead of more so the center tube...but I dunno...these things defy "logic" sometimes...


----------



## zmcnutt

Is anyone running a whole house humidifier in conjunction with their tundra? If so I'm curious how everyone has their humidifier wired up or any possible concerns with doing this.


----------



## KC Matt

Well I'm home sick today and playing with my Tundra.  It's set up with a Johnson Controls 421 box switching the fan from speed 3 to speed 1 at 90f and back to speed 3 at 94f.  Another 421 controller activates the fan at 115f and shuts down at 88f with a 3 minute anti short cycle delay.  Temp probes are in the supply duct about 6" above the top of the stove.

My house is 1500sf with walk out basement, decent insulation in the walls and under insulated in the attic.  It's currently around 10f outside and we've been in a cold snap for a couple days.  

This furnace is struggling to say the least.  It was 58 when I got up this morning and after burning a whole load of fuel it's 61 now.   I'm burning 2-3 year split Honey Locust, Osage Orange, and a little Ash and Oak thrown in.  The wood was stored on pallets, in the open, on asphalt for 2+ years and the last year or so kept on pallets under a roof.  This is some primo fuel.  With a full load of fuel, the fan only runs on speed 3 when the damper is open and the fire is glowing red.  Otherwise, with the damper closed the fan is cycling.  Is this similar to what your stoves are doing?

I have a third Johnson Controls box that I will use to operate the damper as soon as the replacement damper control motor comes.  The first one failed after 2 weeks of use.  It looks like the damper will need to open at 88f and close at 94f to keep the house warm in the cold weather.  That's going to keep the damper open an awful lot and burn an awful lot of fuel.  I'm anticipating a 2- hour burn per load which means a lot more tending to the stove than I had hoped for.

After investing the time and money to make this work, I'm feeling foolish.  If I had it to do over again I'd buy the heatmax.


----------



## KC Matt

Forgot to add that above the double wall stove pipe there is 15' of class a terminating 2.5' above the roof.  I have a manometer but have not installed it. 

Another issue is the amount of coals left at the end of a burn cycle.  if the damper is closed or even partialy open (shimmed with a drill bit since my control motor is dead), there are a few inches of coals at the end.  At that point you either spend an hour or two burning off the coals, or load what will fit in the firebox, knowing that at the end of that cycle the box will be 1/3 filled with coals.  By the time you burn off the coals the house is getting mighty chilly.

Are you guys running your stove with the damper open for the whole burn cycle?


----------



## laynes69

Why invest in modifications for the furnace, when the attic needs insulated? We have a Caddy, but it's the same firebox. There's no way I could burn thru a full load in two hours, especially hedge or locust. Ideally, you should still be able to heat your home off the coalbed if it remains hot. It was 11 degrees last night and it was 71 in the house after 10 hours. Probably 4 or 5 of those hours were strictly coals and they maintained heat for some time.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> I'm burning 2-3 year split Honey Locust, Osage Orange, and a little Ash and Oak thrown in.


This stove seems to like Pine as well or better than good hardwoods. It doesn't do too well on hot coals and that's what the hardwoods make. Now good dry Pine will make a rip roaring fire that will heat the house up for sure...you need some insulation to hold the heat for more than 2 hours though.


KC Matt said:


> That's going to keep the damper open an awful lot and burn an awful lot of fuel.


Damper open after the fire is established is just wasting heat up the chimney...you need to use that manometer and set things up correctly.


KC Matt said:


> I'm anticipating a 2- hour burn per load which means a lot more tending to the stove than I had hoped for.


A couple loads like that and all you'll have is a full load of hot coals...these things need 8 hours or so to burn a load off...hard to do it in less with hardwoods.


KC Matt said:


> If I had it to do over again I'd buy the heatmax.


Heatmax is the same furnace with just different trim...you mean the Heatpro?


KC Matt said:


> Are you guys running your stove with the damper open for the whole burn cycle?


Absolutely not. That is what SBI claims cracks these things...and a super waste of heat up the chimney.


KC Matt said:


> with the damper closed the fan is cycling. Is this similar to what your stoves are doing?


Have you set your static pressure?
Sounds like you would benefit big time from a temp controller and a blower speed controller (true variable speed, not multi speed like you have now)....my blower runs 98% of the time with little cycling now that I have variable speed...and no, it doesn't blow cold air at the end of the burn.
I'm with ya man, I was so close to throwing mine out in the scrap heap...once multiple issues were sorted out and the temp controller and speed controller were installed it is a whole different machine.


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> Is anyone running a whole house humidifier in conjunction with their tundra? If so I'm curious how everyone has their humidifier wired up or any possible concerns with doing this.


Should be no problem. Some wood furnace companys offer them as an option. Just wire it up the way they tell you (probably tap into the blower motor power I would guess)


----------



## sloeffle

KC Matt said:


> Well I'm home sick today and playing with my Tundra. It's set up with a Johnson Controls 421 box switching the fan from speed 3 to speed 1 at 90f and back to speed 3 at 94f. Another 421 controller activates the fan at 115f and shuts down at 88f with a 3 minute anti short cycle delay. Temp probes are in the supply duct about 6" above the top of the stove.



Can you give us some more information on on how you have this setup ? @brenndatomu, is this the same setup you are using ?

Scott


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> brenndatomu, is this the same setup you are using ?


No, not at all.

One thing that comes to mind is for people to not get too hung up on maintaining an _exact_ temp in the house like with fossil fuel heaters. Wood heat fluctuates...some systems more than others.
Also, so what if you have to supplement a bit at 5 AM on a REALLY cold night...we don't really get that many of those kind of nights (days) in a years time, so if your main furnace kicks on for a bit 1 or 2 times per day, big deal...you are still cutting down on you usual heat bill by _big margins_ most likely.
Tundra (and any EPA style wood heater) works best with the intake damper closed _once the firebox is up to working temperatures_. If your thermostat is calling for heat all the time, holding the damper open non-stop, you are wasting heat and running the bag of your heater for no reason.
I'm a lot happier with the Tundra when I'm just maintaining the temperature in the house than I am coming home to a cold house and using Tundra to try to raise the temp back up more than a couple or 3 degrees or so (at my house YMMV) They just don't have the firepower needed to raise temps a lot unless you are willing to do it over an extended period of time. They work much better maintaining a given acceptable temp range.

Set your heater up per factory specs (all of them)
Use *DRY* wood.
Have realistic expectations (I have to keep myself in check sometimes too)

Carry on...


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> One thing that comes to mind is for people to not get too hung up on maintaining an _exact_ temp in the house like with fossil fuel heaters. Wood heat fluctuates...some systems more than others.
> Also, so what if you have to supplement a bit at 5 AM on a REALLY cold night...we don't really get that many of those kind of nights (days) in a years time, so if your main furnace kicks on for a bit 1 or 2 times per day, big deal...you are still cutting down on you usual heat bill by _big margins_ most likely.
> Tundra (and any EPA style wood heater) works best with the intake damper closed _once the firebox is up to working temperatures_. If your thermostat is calling for heat all the time, holding the damper open non-stop, you are wasting heat and running the bag of your heater for no reason.
> Set your heater up per factory specs (all of them)
> Use *DRY* wood.
> Have realistic expectations (I have to keep myself in check sometimes too)
> Carry on...


Sorry, I should've been more specific.

Is this the controller you are using for your fan setup ?

Scott


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Sorry, I should've been more specific.
> 
> Is this the controller you are using for your fan setup ?
> 
> Scott


No. I used a Totaline P251-0083H. ICM makes 'em I believe. ICM 325 or 333 IIRC


----------



## KC Matt

laynes69 said:


> Why invest in modifications for the furnace, when the attic needs insulated? We have a Caddy, but it's the same firebox. There's no way I could burn thru a full load in two hours, especially hedge or locust. Ideally, you should still be able to heat your home off the coalbed if it remains hot. It was 11 degrees last night and it was 71 in the house after 10 hours. Probably 4 or 5 of those hours were strictly coals and they maintained heat for some time.



I have another project that requires attic access and having mountains of insulation would make that job difficult.  After I get to that project insulation is next.  Good to hear yours works so well.  I obviously need to tweak something with mine.  



brenndatomu said:


> This stove seems to like Pine as well or better than good hardwoods. It doesn't do too well on hot coals and that's what the hardwoods make. Now good dry Pine will make a rip roaring fire that will heat the house up for sure...you need some insulation to hold the heat for more than 2 hours though.
> 
> Damper open after the fire is established is just wasting heat up the chimney...you need to use that manometer and set things up correctly.
> 
> A couple loads like that and all you'll have is a full load of hot coals...these things need 8 hours or so to burn a load off...hard to do it in less with hardwoods.
> 
> Heatmax is the same furnace with just different trim...you mean the Heatpro?
> 
> Absolutely not. That is what SBI claims cracks these things...and a super waste of heat up the chimney.
> 
> Have you set your static pressure?
> Sounds like you would benefit big time from a temp controller and a blower speed controller (true variable speed, not multi speed like you have now)....my blower runs 98% of the time with little cycling now that I have variable speed...and no, it doesn't blow cold air at the end of the burn.
> I'm with ya man, I was so close to throwing mine out in the scrap heap...once multiple issues were sorted out and the temp controller and speed controller were installed it is a whole different machine.



I meant the heatpro but it's good to hear this furnace can do much better than I'm seeing now.  Static pressure, no.  Where did you buy your variable speed setup and how much did it run?  As it is, I don't know this furnace would benefit much from variable speed.  It really wants to run on speed 1.  

The house doesn't lose a lot of heat in 2 hours, I must have worded that wrong.  What is becoming clear is that the Tundra is not good at increasing temps, but will maintain them.  



brenndatomu said:


> No, not at all.
> 
> One thing that comes to mind is for people to not get too hung up on maintaining an _exact_ temp in the house like with fossil fuel heaters. Wood heat fluctuates...some systems more than others.
> Also, so what if you have to supplement a bit at 5 AM on a REALLY cold night...we don't really get that many of those kind of nights (days) in a years time, so if your main furnace kicks on for a bit 1 or 2 times per day, big deal...you are still cutting down on you usual heat bill by _big margins_ most likely.
> Tundra (and any EPA style wood heater) works best with the intake damper closed _once the firebox is up to working temperatures_. If your thermostat is calling for heat all the time, holding the damper open non-stop, you are wasting heat and running the bag of your heater for no reason.
> I'm a lot happier with the Tundra when I'm just maintaining the temperature in the house than I am coming home to a cold house and using Tundra to try to raise the temp back up more than a couple or 3 degrees or so (at my house YMMV) They just don't have the firepower needed to raise temps a lot unless you are willing to do it over an extended period of time. They work much better maintaining a given acceptable temp range.
> 
> Set your heater up per factory specs (all of them)
> Use *DRY* wood.
> Have realistic expectations (I have to keep myself in check sometimes too)
> 
> Carry on...



I will go through the manual again and see what I missed.  The furnaces are sharing ductwork and there is no way to put a backflow damper on the gas furnace.  The supply side on the wood furnace would be easy, but then wouldn't it be cycling the warm air straight through the gas furnace?  In order to prevent that I've replaced the gas furnace filter with a block off plate and there is another for the Tundra for when the gas furnace is on.  Is there a better way to do that without being able to damper the gas furnace?


----------



## KC Matt

sloeffle said:


> Sorry, I should've been more specific.
> 
> Is this the controller you are using for your fan setup ?
> 
> Scott



The Johnson Control 421 is just a digital controller with single pole double throw relay built in.  At the set temp, it opens one circuit and closes another.  In this case, the normal position is speed 3, and when it gets cool it switches to speed 1.  At this time it appears to be a wasted effort, as the furnace would probably work best left on speed 1 or 2.  In order to kick into speed 3 the damper has to be open most of the time.

The second controller that turns the motor on and off is there because the factory switch was not turning the fan on until the supply temp hit between 140 and 156 and turning off while the supply temp was something like 90f.  Of the three boxes, the only one that has done any good so far is the one controlling the fan on temp.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> Also, so what if you have to supplement a bit at 5 AM on a REALLY cold night...we don't really get that many of those kind of nights (days) in a years time, so if your main furnace kicks on for a bit 1 or 2 times per day, big deal...you are still cutting down on you usual heat bill by _big margins_ most likely.



but, but, but what if you have no other means of heat?  Or its sitting next to it waiting to be installed for  3 years.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> One thing that comes to mind is for people to not get too hung up on maintaining an _exact_ temp in the house like with fossil fuel heaters. Wood heat fluctuates...some systems more than others



This is absolutely true. I would suggest for best results expect up to 6* swing depending on the sweet spot of outdoor temps to your specific application.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> but, but, but what if you have no other means of heat?  Or its sitting next to it waiting to be installed for  3 years.


Well now, that thar is a whole 'nother animal! Better git 'er figured out! 
(Or hope for new long johns for Christmas!)


----------



## crewchief264

zmcnutt said:


> Is anyone running a whole house humidifier in conjunction with their tundra? If so I'm curious how everyone has their humidifier wired up or any possible concerns with doing this.




I am running an aprilaire 800. No problems.... The main furnace kicks on when humidity is called for... the tundra will continue to operate. I have butterfly dampers on the tundra and a gravity damper above my up flow goodman wood furnace.. as I type this the aprilaire is running. it has been working like this for about 4 years now. No problems.

I have the april air wired up to my goodman furnace just as its called to be wired up from aprilaire in the installation instrutctions. I want the humidifier to run even if I am not burning wood.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> Where did you buy your variable speed setup and how much did it run?


Ebay, less than $20...but the I'm seeing prices are up on 'em a bit now ($40+)


KC Matt said:


> As it is, I don't know this furnace would benefit much from variable speed. It really wants to run on speed 1.


Mine did too. And it needed to run faster at the beginning. And it cycled a lot at the end. The variable speed setup takes care of all that...


KC Matt said:


> I will go through the manual again and see what I missed.


Setting the static pressure and checking draft are the two main things that are obvious to me.
If the draft is off, that is huge...the "best" furnace in the world is a pile of scrap metal without proper draft (enough, but not too much)
-0.04" WC to -0.06" WC is what SBI calls for. Getting that checked would be the first thing on my list if I were you.


KC Matt said:


> The furnaces are sharing ductwork and there is no way to put a backflow damper on the gas furnace


There's _no_ way? How about a powered damper? Have any pics of your setup?


----------



## JRHAWK9

crewchief264 said:


> I am running an aprilaire 800. No problems.... The main furnace kicks on when humidity is called for...




If I had mine setup that way our LP furnace would be running almost all the time during the winter.  LOL  

I have our April Aire on the wood furnace plenum controlled by a humidistat.  It gets power only when the blower on the wood furnace is running and comes on when the humidistat calls for humidity AND the wood furnace blower is running.  I don't use it in the dead of winter though as it cools the supply temps off too much and I need as many BTU's as possible.  We run a 5 gallon whole house humidifier all day long.  We put 5-10 gallons of water in the air a day with that.


----------



## zmcnutt

crewchief264 said:


> I am running an aprilaire 800. No problems.... The main furnace kicks on when humidity is called for... the tundra will continue to operate. I have butterfly dampers on the tundra and a gravity damper above my up flow goodman wood furnace.. as I type this the aprilaire is running. it has been working like this for about 4 years now. No problems.
> 
> I have the april air wired up to my goodman furnace just as its called to be wired up from aprilaire in the installation instrutctions. I want the humidifier to run even if I am not burning wood.



Good to hear. I was originally concerned about running my lp furnace blower in conjunction with my wood furnace blower however I do have proper dampers to prevent back feeding into each other. I had heard it was best to let the main blower run when humidifying to prevent moisture from rotting the heat exchanger.


----------



## crewchief264

JRHAWK9 said:


> If I had mine setup that way our LP furnace would be running almost all the time during the winter.  LOL
> 
> I have our April Aire on the wood furnace plenum controlled by a humidistat.  It gets power only when the blower on the wood furnace is running and comes on when the humidistat calls for humidity AND the wood furnace blower is running.  I don't use it in the dead of winter though as it cools the supply temps off too much and I need as many BTU's as possible.  We run a 5 gallon whole house humidifier all day long.  We put 5-10 gallons of water in the air a day with that.




EDIT: the April air controller/sensor pack mounts directly on the cold air return plenum.... just fyi....

My April Air has an outdoor temp sensor and it works very well. You may just need to upgrade your Aril Air controller. It actually puts less humidity in the air the colder it gets. I keep it at about 3-4 as for settings. the latest arctic cold snap....... I did need to adjust the humidifier from 4 to 3, as I had some moisture build up on the windows.. I was sitting at about 25% humidity during the cold snap. I am currently sitting at about 35% humidity and the temp is 27 outside with a strong wind. Actually I still get pretty good heat output when the humidifier is running (main furnace on and Tundra on). Although I have not measured duct temps... I like automatic, and KISS. I am loving the Tundra.. It's heating my house with no problems. I am staying above 70 all day and night.. and averaging 8-10 hour burn times. If I don't feel like getting up early and re loading.. I just let the heat pump run for a bit.. I have the main furnace set to kick on at 68. I am also using a lot less wood than the hotblast was eating up.


----------



## zmcnutt

crewchief264 said:


> EDIT: the April air controller/sensor pack mounts directly on the cold air return plenum.... just fyi....
> 
> My April Air has an outdoor temp sensor and it works very well. You may just need to upgrade your Aril Air controller. It actually puts less humidity in the air the colder it gets. I keep it at about 3-4 as for settings. the latest arctic cold snap....... I did need to adjust the humidifier from 4 to 3, as I had some moisture build up on the windows.. I was sitting at about 25% humidity during the cold snap. I am currently sitting at about 35% humidity and the temp is 27 outside with a strong wind. Actually I still get pretty good heat output when the humidifier is running (main furnace on and Tundra on). Although I have not measured duct temps... I like automatic, and KISS. I am loving the Tundra.. It's heating my house with no problems. I am staying above 70 all day and night.. and averaging 8-10 hour burn times. If I don't feel like getting up early and re loading.. I just let the heat pump run for a bit.. I have the main furnace set to kick on at 68. I am also using a lot less wood than the hotblast was eating up.



I've been pretty happy with the tundra so far definitely takes some getting used to after using my old buck stove. Have you ever measured your static pressure out of the tundra when your furnace is running at the same time? I'm assuming your sharing the ductwork. I guess I need to buy a digital manometer. I just don't want my furnace blower overpowering the tundra so I try to run the two separate from each other as much as possible


----------



## JRHAWK9

crewchief264 said:


> EDIT: the April air controller/sensor pack mounts directly on the cold air return plenum.... just fyi....
> 
> My April Air has an outdoor temp sensor and it works very well. You may just need to upgrade your Aril Air controller. It actually puts less humidity in the air the colder it gets. I keep it at about 3-4 as for settings. the latest arctic cold snap....... I did need to adjust the humidifier from 4 to 3, as I had some moisture build up on the windows.. I was sitting at about 25% humidity during the cold snap. I am currently sitting at about 35% humidity and the temp is 27 outside with a strong wind. Actually I still get pretty good heat output when the humidifier is running (main furnace on and Tundra on). Although I have not measured duct temps... I like automatic, and KISS. I am loving the Tundra.. It's heating my house with no problems. I am staying above 70 all day and night.. and averaging 8-10 hour burn times. If I don't feel like getting up early and re loading.. I just let the heat pump run for a bit.. I have the main furnace set to kick on at 68. I am also using a lot less wood than the hotblast was eating up.






I have our humidistat upstairs on a wall.  We too have the outdoor temp sensor.

What I was getting at was with our low humidity levels, due to the style of house (log cabin with 12/12 pitch roof and TALL ceilings) and seeing it's a not so tightly built house, our humidistat would be calling for humidity a lot in the dead of winter and therefore running the LP a lot with the way it's setup for you.  You may have it the "correct" way, but that wouldn't work for us if we don't want to use the LP furnace much.  10 gallons of water a day still nets me low 20's RH when it's really cold out.  We also see a bit colder weather than you guys in central IL.  This past cold snap we had a 74 HDD (lows of -14° and a high of -3°), while you guys were high 50's the way it looks.  I know there's a big difference in heating our place in a 70 HDD vs 55 HDD.


----------



## crewchief264

zmcnutt said:


> I've been pretty happy with the tundra so far definitely takes some getting used to after using my old buck stove. Have you ever measured your static pressure out of the tundra when your furnace is running at the same time? I'm assuming your sharing the ductwork. I guess I need to buy a digital manometer. I just don't want my furnace blower overpowering the tundra so I try to run the two separate from each other as much as possible



I haven't gotten into the static pressure measuring. I had originally installed the tundra on blower speed 3. However i didn't get very good overall heat transfer. I backed it down to speed 2. The house furnace over powers the tundra... however the tundra still gets enough air to move air through it and open the butterfly damper allowing some heat through when the humidifier is running. I haven't had any issues with it running like this. And yes the tundra and furnace are on the same return and supply. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## crewchief264

JRHAWK9 said:


> I have our humidistat upstairs on a wall.  We too have the outdoor temp sensor.
> 
> What I was getting at was with our low humidity levels, due to the style of house (log cabin with 12/12 pitch roof and TALL ceilings) and seeing it's a not so tightly built house, our humidistat would be calling for humidity a lot in the dead of winter and therefore running the LP a lot with the way it's setup for you.  You may have it the "correct" way, but that wouldn't work for us if we don't want to use the LP furnace much.  10 gallons of water a day still nets me low 20's RH when it's really cold out.  We also see a bit colder weather than you guys in central IL.  This past cold snap we had a 74 HDD (lows of -14° and a high of -3°), while you guys were high 50's the way it looks.  I know there's a big difference in heating our place in a 70 HDD vs 55 HDD.



Copy that. I don't blame you for not wanting that LP kicking in.... I am the same way when mine kicks on the 2 10kw strip heat.... And I am in Decatur IN still not as cold as you and grateful for that. A tundra wouldn't keep up with this same house up there.... 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KC Matt

brenndatomu said:


> Ebay, less than $20...but the I'm seeing prices are up on 'em a bit now ($40+)
> 
> Mine did too. And it needed to run faster at the beginning. And it cycled a lot at the end. The variable speed setup takes care of all that...
> 
> Setting the static pressure and checking draft are the two main things that are obvious to me.
> If the draft is off, that is huge...the "best" furnace in the world is a pile of scrap metal without proper draft (enough, but not too much)
> -0.04" WC to -0.06" WC is what SBI calls for. Getting that checked would be the first thing on my list if I were you.
> 
> There's _no_ way? How about a powered damper? Have any pics of your setup?



Well, yesterday the replacement damper motor came in.  Installing the digital controller on the damper was a huge improvement.  

Also, I grabbed the biggest split of honey locust in the garage and tested moisture on a fresh split face.  The highest reading I could get was 12.8%.  

I looked on ebay using search terms related to your system and didn't find anything.  The variable speed blower and motor combos I'm seeing are more like $500+.  What terms do I need to search?  Is your system 110vac?

You caught me slipping.  Theoretically, I could buy a powered damper for $250 or so then have a section of duct remade to add a dog leg, making room for the damper.  There's no guarantee it wouldn't require some demo and reconstruction in the finished basement on the other side of the wall.  By the time it was done, it would be an easy $600 project and a full day's work, maybe a whole weekend.  These things do snowball....

I'll get that manometer installed soon.   And static pressure where?


----------



## 3fordasho

Totaline P251-0083H head pressure control for the blower speed control.





KC Matt said:


> Well, yesterday the replacement damper motor came in.  Installing the digital controller on the damper was a huge improvement.
> 
> Also, I grabbed the biggest split of honey locust in the garage and tested moisture on a fresh split face.  The highest reading I could get was 12.8%.
> 
> I looked on ebay using search terms related to your system and didn't find anything.  The variable speed blower and motor combos I'm seeing are more like $500+.  What terms do I need to search?  Is your system 110vac?
> 
> You caught me slipping.  Theoretically, I could buy a powered damper for $250 or so then have a section of duct remade to add a dog leg, making room for the damper.  There's no guarantee it wouldn't require some demo and reconstruction in the finished basement on the other side of the wall.  By the time it was done, it would be an easy $600 project and a full day's work, maybe a whole weekend.  These things do snowball....
> 
> I'll get that manometer installed soon.   And static pressure where?


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> Just switched from front to back config to side to side.  Duct temps seem much lower and flue temps higher  I was running fan on high when front to back. I started on high with side to side and have gone down two speeds to medium low incrementally checkin temps by feel each time, still noticing it doesn't seem to be stripping the heat from the unit as well and it's taking allot longer to bring up house temp. I don't understand as according to the manual side by side is their preferred config. Is this because it keeps flue temps higher and doesn't strip as much heat? I didn't add any more elbows or change ducting that much to create restriction.  Ugh this is so frustrating as I figured it would be a huge improvement and I just invested a bunch of my time and a little money on it but would have to spend more to change it back:-(. Any advice?


I have been thru this process as well. yes the front location provides much hotter air than the sides or the rear.. However I will say this.. upon max surge of my current Tundra 1 updated unit my duct temps get so high a slight odor begins to arise for a short period of time. I have checked the connections of flex nitareas and no melting of the flex has occurred but I have definitely exceed the recommend temperature for flex. I have solid coming out for the first 20 ft or so then flex running into the crawl space(my tundra is in a stand alone garage), then I have some flex and as much solid as I could put in under the crawl. Point is I like the idea of using the front output but I am pretty sure I would damage my ducts work if my flex connection were any closer than 20ft. I may get away with that now as I initially had flex tied in only 5' from the furnace originally and added more solid duct pushing the flex back to about 20ft. Def need to watch duct temps when using that front connection as it will def exceed safe temperatures and this is likely why SBI says side outputs. Not even sure why the put the front output in the unit. Now that I have my flex connections pushed back 20 ft a may try this but even no w side by side my duct temps get real damn hot upon surge. Things to consider.


----------



## Digger79

jb6l6gc said:


> Just switched from front to back config to side to side.  Duct temps seem much lower and flue temps higher  I was running fan on high when front to back. I started on high with side to side and have gone down two speeds to medium low incrementally checkin temps by feel each time, still noticing it doesn't seem to be stripping the heat from the unit as well and it's taking allot longer to bring up house temp. I don't understand as according to the manual side by side is their preferred config. Is this because it keeps flue temps higher and doesn't strip as much heat? I didn't add any more elbows or change ducting that much to create restriction.  Ugh this is so frustrating as I figured it would be a huge improvement and I just invested a bunch of my time and a little money on it but would have to spend more to change it back:-(. Any advice?


And don't forget to consider what the older guys on here always mention.. "what can happen if the power goes out and the fan won't run".. that could be a scary scenario.


----------



## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> Forgot to add that above the double wall stove pipe there is 15' of class a terminating 2.5' above the roof.  I have a manometer but have not installed it.
> 
> Another issue is the amount of coals left at the end of a burn cycle.  if the damper is closed or even partialy open (shimmed with a drill bit since my control motor is dead), there are a few inches of coals at the end.  At that point you either spend an hour or two burning off the coals, or load what will fit in the firebox, knowing that at the end of that cycle the box will be 1/3 filled with coals.  By the time you burn off the coals the house is getting mighty chilly.
> 
> Are you guys running your stove with the damper open for the whole burn cycle?


I'll say this.. I have discovered wood heat is wood heat.. or surge heat.. My home is better insulated now and I do believe I am discovering that allowing the Tundra to burn at peak temps, thermostat to call for heat rather than allowing the stove to burn with the damper closed all day results in a warmer house after a 8-10 hour burn. Maintaining an even heat with wood is just not possible without two stoves running in alternate cycles and would consume a huge amount of wood. You see it seems if I let the tundra burn hot as it can without over fire it drives the house up into the middle 70's and drops to about 68 or so by end of burn.. When I run it with damper closed reburning thru most the burn cycle my house winds up around 63-64 after the 8-10 hour burn. So yep it does appear since we are "surge heating" or heating with wood that running tundra with damper open as much as possible does actually provide better heat. This is contrary to everything I believed about this re burning process and what many on here say about Tundra. However the results are def a warmer house period. Yes burns more wood. Keep in mind this is also when using the Tundra as a stand alone heat source. I would think when using as an add on and running in conjunction with a gas furnace the damper closed as much as possible method would be the most efficient. The higher I set my temp controller the warmer the house is at the end of the burn cycles though period.


----------



## maple1

_*Maintaining an even heat with wood is just not possible without two stoves running in alternate cycles and would consume a huge amount of wood. *_

It's pretty easy, and the norm, with a boiler & storage.


----------



## Digger79

maple1 said:


> _*Maintaining an even heat with wood is just not possible without two stoves running in alternate cycles and would consume a huge amount of wood. *_
> 
> It's pretty easy, and the norm, with a boiler & storage.


Lol ok ya got me there. Cant argue that logic  " when heating w forced air only from wood heat" better? Lol. The only storage there is the space being heated an its insulation. However w having a separate gas system using the tundras damper closed method to maintain a longer low level heat an using gas system to make up the difference seems to work well an gives more comfortable even house temps. Going to bed sweating an waking up freezeing at 4 am can kinda suck lol


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> Not even sure why the put the front output in the unit.



I think it's the Hotblast, and some other furnaces as well, have the front-and-back outlets, so SBI has the front and back to make the Tundra more salable by being direct bolt-in with existing ductwork.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> I think it's the Hotblast, and some other furnaces as well, have the front-and-back outlets, so SBI has the front and back to make the Tundra more salable by being direct bolt-in with existing ductwork.


That sure makes sense


----------



## laynes69

Our Caddy doesn't have a controller on it, and after 8, 10, 12 hours depending on the weather the house is within a degree or two when we wake where the thermostat is set. It was 32 last night, and after a 12 hour burn, the thermostat was set at 73 and the house was 72 with enough coals to still cycle the blower. When it's much colder in the single digits, the thermostat still keeps the house within a degree or two after 8 hours. The days of wild temperature swings dissapeared when we upgraded.


----------



## Digger79

laynes69 said:


> Our Caddy doesn't have a controller on it, and after 8, 10, 12 hours depending on the weather the house is within a degree or two when we wake where the thermostat is set. It was 32 last night, and after a 12 hour burn, the thermostat was set at 73 and the house was 72 with enough coals to still cycle the blower. When it's much colder in the single digits, the thermostat still keeps the house within a degree or two after 8 hours. The days of wild temperature swings dissapeared when we upgraded.


That is probably cause you stove is in the house or basement. My setup is dif my stove is in a stand alone garage pipe in thru my crawl. I get no heat other than what comes from the plenum. No one is getting high heat outta a forced air supply from wood after 8 hrs. Bonus is my garage is heated along w the house but yeah if i had tundra in house im sure i could maintain more even heat using re burn cycle more. In otherwords my heat demand due to set up is far over what Tundra can provide on re burning for 4-5 hrs. When it gets real cold i do better letting it burn at higher heat an a shorter burn. Its my setup. I rent so its best i can do w Tundra for now.


----------



## Digger79

Jb616gc In reference to your comment that appears to have been removed about pulling the filter.. i think the older fellas mean if your not home to deal with it. Id say so long you have solid duct far enough out from plenum an good clearances around duct pipe it would prob be ok ya know. I just thought it was good advice from some of the guys on here about considering what may occur in a power outage an we cant be around to deal with it. Double D had good points about air flow and hes right i noticed better airflow on side to side setup over front to back. I think it was double d who commented there.


----------



## Builderml

I would like to add a note to those that are new to the Tundra, don't get me wrong this is only my second year so I am still new myself.
One thing that I have noticed that greatly impacts the heat output is cleaning the heat exchanger tubes, you might not have to clean the chimney but I recommend you clean the exchanger tubes about once a month. It's very easy to do. Here is what I do and keeps it fast and simple.
Purchase one length of chimney cleaning rod.
I use a poly brush 6", I attach the cleaning rod to the end of a cordless drill and run it back and forth. Vacuum it out and your done.
I like to make the cleaning brush about 1" larger than the tube size. 6" is perfect for both sides and 7" for middle.
Quick and easy
Believe me it makes a difference
Hope this helps
Merry Christmas !!


----------



## Digger79

Builderml said:


> I would like to add a note to those that are new to the Tundra, don't get me wrong this is only my second year so I am still new myself.
> One thing that I have noticed that greatly impacts the heat output is cleaning the heat exchanger tubes, you might not have to clean the chimney but I recommend you clean the exchanger tubes about once a month. It's very easy to do. Here is what I do and keeps it fast and simple.
> Purchase one length of chimney cleaning rod.
> I use a poly brush 6", I attach the cleaning rod to the end of a cordless drill and run it back and forth. Vacuum it out and your done.
> I like to make the cleaning brush about 1" larger than the tube size. 6" is perfect for both sides and 7" for middle.
> Quick and easy
> Believe me it makes a difference
> Hope this helps
> Merry Christmas !!


Very true. Brenndatomu clued me in on that i clean them every 3 weeks or so.


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## STIHLY DAN

laynes69 said:


> Our Caddy doesn't have a controller on it, and after 8, 10, 12 hours depending on the weather the house is within a degree or two when we wake where the thermostat is set. It was 32 last night, and after a 12 hour burn, the thermostat was set at 73 and the house was 72 with enough coals to still cycle the blower. When it's much colder in the single digits, the thermostat still keeps the house within a degree or two after 8 hours. The days of wild temperature swings dissapeared when we upgraded.



That is pretty amazing, how does it do that? I would love to call your bluff. But we all know you are a straight shooter and know what you are talking about.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Digger79 said:


> Jb616gc In reference to your comment that appears to have been removed about pulling the filter.. i think the older fellas mean if your not home to deal with it. Id say so long you have solid duct far enough out from plenum an good clearances around duct pipe it would prob be ok ya know. I just thought it was good advice from some of the guys on here about considering what may occur in a power outage an we cant be around to deal with it. Double D had good points about air flow and hes right i noticed better airflow on side to side setup over front to back. I think it was double d who commented there.


ya I deleted as I hadn't read everything that was said.  All my ducting is metal no flex lots of clearance. No concern there. Trust me I almost had a duct melt an abs pipe when I had hotblast so everything has been gone over. I'm most concerned with getting the most efficiency as my house is on the upper end of the rated capacity for the tundra. I would've looked for something bigger but previously in this thread you can see what I had to go through just to get this thing into my basement and the old hotblast out.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Digger79 said:


> Very true. Brenndatomu clued me in on that i clean them every 3 weeks or so.


Maybe that's partly my issue is they're due for a cleaning. I have been running 24/7 for a while now so haven't had a chance to look. Temps going up this week so perfect opportunity


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> Def need to watch duct temps when using that front connection as it will def exceed safe temperatures and this is likely why SBI says side outputs. Not even sure why the put the front output in the unit. Now that I have my flex connections pushed back 20 ft a may try this but even no w side by side my duct temps get real damn hot upon surge


I dunno how the heck you get such high duct temps...the highest I have EVER seen was 129*...usually running 115-120, maybe 125* for a bit after a re-load.
The front duct is by far the hottest, and the back one is the coolest one...using the 2 side holes and the front one all dumping into my main trunk line works pretty good for me (got dampers on all 3 to set "plenum" static pressure)


Digger79 said:


> the older guys on here


Say what!? Older?! Who? 


laynes69 said:


> and after a 12 hour burn, the thermostat was set at 73 and the house was 72 with enough coals to still cycle the blower.


Sign of a well insulated/air sealed home...along with a properly "tuned" and operated furnace


----------



## jb6l6gc

I thought about using the 2 sides and front. Glad to hear someone's doing it with success.


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## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> One thing that I have noticed that greatly impacts the heat output is cleaning the heat exchanger tubes, you might not have to clean the chimney but I recommend you clean the exchanger tubes about once a month. It's very easy to do. Here is what I do and keeps it fast and simple.
> Purchase one length of chimney cleaning rod.
> I use a poly brush 6", I attach the cleaning rod to the end of a cordless drill and run it back and forth. Vacuum it out and your done.
> I like to make the cleaning brush about 1" larger than the tube size. 6" is perfect for both sides and 7" for middle.
> Quick and easy
> Believe me it makes a difference


Beat me to it! I was just thinking that I need to remind y'all to clean those HE's regular like. I do mine about once a week now...usually dig out some ashes and clean the HE's on Sunday evening. I have been using my Soot Eater to clean my tubes...really works well, fast too.


----------



## laynes69

Like Brenn mentioned...insulation and airsealing is key. The tighter and more insulated a home is, the less time you worry about temperatures  both inside and out. While a coalbed doesn't produce a ton of heat, when the house slowly drops in temperature, the coalbed can still slow or maintain a level of comfort. It's taken time for us, and there's still room for improvement, but there's a night and day difference from then to now.


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## brenndatomu

One thing that I am increasing thinking is that the Caddy has a leg up on the T1 because...
(1) the full plenum is probably a little better at capturing usable heat from hot coals. (we'll see with the T2)
(2) the front of the firebox being inside the air jacket is a biggy, it takes advantage of that intense heat at the beginning of the burn cycle, and then again toward the second half of the burn, there is hot coals heat to be had here from the front of the firebox. After all, it is the only part of the firebox that is not double insulated...

Like @Digger79  said of his Tundra in the garage, lots of heat being "lost" that those of us with the furnace in the basement can take at least some advantage of. If anybody ever installed one _in_ the living space, (slab house) they would see efficiencys the rest of us can only dream of with all that radiant heat available...she'd be a heat _monster_! I have seen pictures of a Mini Caddy set up in the living room like a stove, it looked pretty cool!


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> One thing that I am increasing thinking is that the Caddy has a leg up on the T1 because...
> (1) the full plenum is probably a little better at capturing usable heat from hot coals. (we'll see with the T2)
> (2) the front of the firebox being inside the air jacket is a biggy, it takes advantage of that intense heat at the beginning of the burn cycle, and then again toward the second half of the burn, there is hot coals heat to be had here from the front of the firebox. After all, it is the only part of the firebox that is not double insulated...
> 
> Like @Digger79  said of his Tundra in the garage, lots of heat being "lost" that those of us with the furnace in the basement can take at least some advantage of. If anybody ever installed one _in_ the living space, (slab house) they would see efficiencys the rest of us can only dream of with all that radiant heat available...she'd be a heat _monster_! I have seen pictures of a Mini Caddy set up in the living room like a stove, it looked pretty cool!


Yeah if the tundra was in my house it would be 80 plus all the time. with the windows open.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> I dunno how the heck you get such high duct temps...the highest I have EVER seen was 129*...usually running 115-120, maybe 125* for a bit after a re-load.
> The front duct is by far the hottest, and the back one is the coolest one...using the 2 side holes and the front one all dumping into my main trunk line works pretty good for me (got dampers on all 3 to set "plenum" static pressure)
> 
> Say what!? Older?! Who?
> 
> Sign of a well insulated/air sealed home...along with a properly "tuned" and operated furnace


I know lol Im almost 40 now so your right you guys aren't that much older anymore. lol. Any ways I dunno Brenn my ducts get well over 200 deg at times 10-20 ft out I saw almost 300 on the old model about 10 ft away. at the registers I think the hottest I've felt was around 150 or so. U know its hot when you can smell it. lol.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> One thing that I am increasing thinking is that the Caddy has a leg up on the T1 because...
> (1) the full plenum is probably a little better at capturing usable heat from hot coals. (we'll see with the T2)
> (2) the front of the firebox being inside the air jacket is a biggy, it takes advantage of that intense heat at the beginning of the burn cycle, and then again toward the second half of the burn, there is hot coals heat to be had here from the front of the firebox. After all, it is the only part of the firebox that is not double insulated...
> 
> Like @Digger79  said of his Tundra in the garage, lots of heat being "lost" that those of us with the furnace in the basement can take at least some advantage of. If anybody ever installed one _in_ the living space, (slab house) they would see efficiencys the rest of us can only dream of with all that radiant heat available...she'd be a heat _monster_! I have seen pictures of a Mini Caddy set up in the living room like a stove, it looked pretty cool!


Its not totally lost  I have a heated garage! haha


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## maple1

brenndatomu said:


> Beat me to it! I was just thinking that I need to remind y'all to clean those HE's regular like. I do mine about once a week now...usually dig out some ashes and clean the HE's on Sunday evening. I have been using my Soot Eater to clean my tubes...really works well, fast too.



Firm believer here in regular frequent HX cleanings. I don't have a Tundra - or a furnace. But my boiler has tubes, and Sunday mornings seem to be the time they get brushed. Seems to fit in with the rest of the lazy day, only takes 5 minutes or so and I usually do it between a couple other puttering things I put off all week. And a coffee.


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> One thing that I am increasing thinking is that the Caddy has a leg up on the T1 because...
> (1) the full plenum is probably a little better at capturing usable heat from hot coals. (we'll see with the T2)
> (2) the front of the firebox being inside the air jacket is a biggy, it takes advantage of that intense heat at the beginning of the burn cycle, and then again toward the second half of the burn, there is hot coals heat to be had here from the front of the firebox. After all, it is the only part of the firebox that is not double insulated...
> 
> Like @Digger79  said of his Tundra in the garage, lots of heat being "lost" that those of us with the furnace in the basement can take at least some advantage of. If anybody ever installed one _in_ the living space, (slab house) they would see efficiencys the rest of us can only dream of with all that radiant heat available...she'd be a heat _monster_! I have seen pictures of a Mini Caddy set up in the living room like a stove, it looked pretty cool!


I would love to have my Tundra indoors. If I owned my home I would dress out a corner for it with stone and build false removable walls around it to make it look like a built in wood furnace. Some day. I don't care what anyone tells you renting is not cheaper. I have thrown 150k in the toilet over 15-20 years. I could have only insurance and property tax by now if I could buy. Yeah I get the repair costs of homeownership but I am a fully licensed 15 yr GC and a 25 year carpentar.. Im not scared of home maintenance or repairs. Damn banks. lol sorry bout that tangent.


----------



## Darbycrash

Hey guys! I thought I would sneak into the thread since I just picked up the 1st gen Tundra at Menards (very well could of been the last one in the state of Michigan) for $799.00 I have been lurking this thread for the past year or so, so I am aware of the cracking issues. I will be picking up the unit on Monday so I am not sure if they will have added the door firebrick at this point or not. If not, I plan on doing this myself. I guess my biggest concern right now is the 8 inch ducting from the unit to my current plenum, and also the return line. 

My first question that relates to the 8 inch supply lines is: Would it be OK to run a 8 inch solid HVAC galv pipe about 30 inches or so up from the unit and then elbow into flex duct and run that the rest of the way to my plenum? I will be adding pictures soon of my current LP and plenum set up. 

Secondly, Will I be OK not tying into the current return air plenum for about a year or so until I make more space to do so? 

My house is smaller, 1300 sqft 2 story with a basement. Chimney will be an exterior 5.5 inch SS lined at 30ft. in height. I will be using a BARO.


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## brenndatomu

Darbycrash said:


> Would it be OK to run a 8 inch solid HVAC galv pipe about 30 inches or so up from the unit and then elbow into flex duct and run that the rest of the way to my plenum?


Welcome to the jungle Darby! Sounds like you stole that baby, I didn't pay too much less than that for a cracked one! As far as the flex duct, code says all supply side ductwork on solid fuel furnaces must be metal. Can you get away with flex...maybe...maybe not...you a gambler? I know I wouldn't be when it comes to my house and family...
As to the return air issue, it will work OK without tying in as long as there is a door left open or some way of getting the air back down there. Now then, as soon as you can tie it in, it will work even better.
Chimney sounds good. Try to keep your stove pipe setup as short and as straight as possible, use 45s instead of 90s if there is any way to avoid it.


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## STIHLY DAN

Flex, NO!


----------



## Darbycrash

Now I just have to figure out how to get this thing down my stairs. Probably should put some reinforcement on my steps ans strip down the unit as much as possible.

I was wondering.....I plan on buying the 5.5 inch liner kit from NLE which comes with the two part Tee. Is the Tee snout likely to be 6"? I cant seem to find any 5.5 to 6" reducers. also, will the bottom of the tee be 6 inch?   

Has anyone used Northline's chimney liner DiY kits?


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## brenndatomu

Darbycrash said:


> Is the Tee snout likely to be 6"?


Yes, I believe so. Better double check with them before you order...

Merry Christmas wood burners!


----------



## sloeffle

Spent a couple hours today cleaning the Caddy. Cleaned out the heat exchangers and firebox. I also swept the chimney.

I took apart the secondary burn tubes because I noticed that on one of the tubes not all of the holes had flames coming out of them. I generally vacuum each tube as part of my monthly cleaning. Taking apart the tubes was an hour of my life I wish I could get back. A couple of the cotter pins were a total PITA to get out. A tiny bit of powder came out of each burn tube. I'll stick with vacuuming them out.

We have had the furnace for 5 years and burn approximately 2 cords a year. It is not our main source of heat so that is why I don't burn a much as some. Our house is insulated pretty good too.


----------



## DoubleB

Digger79 said:


> my ducts get well over 200 deg at times 10-20 ft out I saw almost 300 on the old model about 10 ft away. at the registers I think the hottest I've felt was around 150 or so. U know its hot when you can smell it. lol.



Hey Digger, those numbers make me wonder, are you sure your ductwork gives you enough cfm to carry heat out of your furnace?  That temp rise is 2 or 3 times as much as my Tundra setup.  Not saying that mine is right, but that sure seems hot.


----------



## laynes69

sloeffle said:


> Taking apart the tubes was an hour of my life I wish I could get back. A couple of the cotter pins were a total PITA to get out.


Yeah, the pins need to be straightened to both come out and go in easily. It takes me a couple of minutes to pull them and place back in, but I've done it many times. I put just enough bend on the back of the pins to keep them from coming out (lost a tube one time during a good burn). A flat blade screwdriver is what I use to remove.


----------



## Darbycrash

The Tundra is being delivered on Wednesday morning by Menards. They are even going to be putting it in the basement for me! I started clearing a spot and drawing up a duct work plan. The previous owner had a add on sitting in this area at some point, however they removed it and cemented over the clean out and thimble pipes into the chimney. I got them both knocked out as you can see if the picture below. They also decided to fill the holes that they g routed over with a pair of blue jeans, Walmart bags, insulation, burlap sacks....and dirt. You would not believe it if I told you but there were about 20-25 mosquitoes!! They sealed it off downstairs, but never covered the top up so moisture and bugs got in there over who knows how long. 

In the picture below, I am going to add a 11x48x4 inch plenum off of the existing 7x7 plenum that has 2, 6" ducts coming out of it. I plan on running both 8 inch lines from the Drolet into the existing duct work right there. 

I also plan on adding a few reinforcement 4x4 and 2x4's to the stairs.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Is there a chimney behind the window?


----------



## Darbycrash

STIHLY DAN said:


> Is there a chimney behind the window?



Yes . Someone added this about 10 years ago or so (is my guess) but never used it.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Hey Digger, those numbers make me wonder, are you sure your ductwork gives you enough cfm to carry heat out of your furnace?  That temp rise is 2 or 3 times as much as my Tundra setup.  Not saying that mine is right, but that sure seems hot.


yes. Blows harder than my gas furnace. Duct temps are not as hot with the Updated model as the fan comes on sooner. I have to admit those temps where takin on the 1st unit. However my ducts still get pretty darn hot. Def cools the plenum in a hurry. I have adjusted the snap switch with a few spacers to push it back to turning on around 400 deg flu temps as factory setting it was coming on before plenum was even warm hardly. now I can feel the top of the stove get hot to the touch just before the fan kicks on. I'm happy with the fan temp setting as Im not blowing cold air anymore. I have a 12" air return line that is only about 30 ft or so of flex. Yes CFM's are very high thru my duct work now. Im not sure why I get such hot air other than I burn the furnace pretty hot most the time now. It seems I can't hardly over fire this model. I have however gotten the flu up to 960 deg for a few seconds and still no cracks, warps failures nothing. Commonly 720 is the hottest my flu see's upon surge before I let temp controller take over. I do burn top down fires with def give pretty hot air and pretty much right away. I've also learned to stack the wood loose and tall. I am going to get a grate for warmer weather so I can burn smaller fires closer to the top. One thing I have learned with Tundra's firebox is even when fire box temps are high and fire is hot the distance between the top of the fire/coals and the plenum can kill our heat exchange. Once tundra is done with surge and goes into return duct temps are warm at best. The fan cools the furnace almost instantly unless the fire is ragin hot. Funny you would ask bout this cause actually I am having the opposite problem hence dialing back the snap switch with shims and considering lowering the fan speed here soon. Its on High-high. I had CFM issues at first  but after replacing a ton of flex with smooth and going to the lightest filter I can buy, the air comes screaming out of my ducts now and hits you in the face 5 ft away. I have not measured duct temps on this newer model and I am sure they are lower however def very hot air 10-20 ft out still and at the registers I would guess I am getting around 120 deg during most the hotter stage of burn and around 140 on surge but I may be off. I'll grab a heat sensor gun and check it out an repost here soon. I haven't smelled hot ducting since I added smooth duct and updated tundra really. A few times the smooth pipes got hot and smelled a little when I accidentally left door cracked and a few times when I simply pushed the stove to its max. SBI said if I cracked it again they would replace so I have been pushing the thing.. no cracks. The firebrick around the door(I have a better lining than factory there) and the HE being relieved at the cut out pretty much solved those problems.


----------



## Digger79

Darbycrash said:


> Hey guys! I thought I would sneak into the thread since I just picked up the 1st gen Tundra at Menards (very well could of been the last one in the state of Michigan) for $799.00 I have been lurking this thread for the past year or so, so I am aware of the cracking issues. I will be picking up the unit on Monday so I am not sure if they will have added the door firebrick at this point or not. If not, I plan on doing this myself. I guess my biggest concern right now is the 8 inch ducting from the unit to my current plenum, and also the return line.
> 
> My first question that relates to the 8 inch supply lines is: Would it be OK to run a 8 inch solid HVAC galv pipe about 30 inches or so up from the unit and then elbow into flex duct and run that the rest of the way to my plenum? I will be adding pictures soon of my current LP and plenum set up.
> 
> Secondly, Will I be OK not tying into the current return air plenum for about a year or so until I make more space to do so?
> 
> My house is smaller, 1300 sqft 2 story with a basement. Chimney will be an exterior 5.5 inch SS lined at 30ft. in height. I will be using a BARO.


Avoid as much flex as you can possibly pull of. I started with all flex other than the first 5-10 ft of solid coming out of the plenum. As hot as my ducts have gotten I recommend a minimum of 20 ft from the plenum. The main reason I say avoid it though is it kills your airflow. Something like 5ft of smooth duct has the same friction as 1 ft of flex. its pretty bad. The ridges in the flex really slow the air down. After replacing most of my flex with solid as budget and time allowed my CFM's went thru the roof compared to before. The flex was just a cheap quick way to get it running. I would go totally solid if possible.


----------



## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Hey Digger, those numbers make me wonder, are you sure your ductwork gives you enough cfm to carry heat out of your furnace?  That temp rise is 2 or 3 times as much as my Tundra setup.  Not saying that mine is right, but that sure seems hot.


I should add/impact the point I did measure duct temp near 300 with a probe on the old tundra unit about 10-20 ft away from plenum upon highest surge of burns. I have not accurately measured register temps nor current duct temps with a tool but honestly guessed at those temps. Likely once I get an actual temp measuring tool on the registers and current duct I will find my numbers to be lower than I think. No doubt however it gets much hotter than my gas furnace at the registers. I can say that. I do not get that hot heat very long at all however. Again I will get a heat sensor gun/ remeasure things and repost. probably estimating high. I do burn my tundra hotter than others I think as I find the hotter I burn it rather than letting it reburn all the time the warmer my house is at the end of a burn period. I've been thinking about adding a return intake in the garage to reclaim some of that heat. At times my garage is 80 plus degrees lol. Not sure I need all that heat out there.


----------



## Digger79

So I talked about adding a temp controlled air injector for burning a hotter fire during the last hours of a burn and shortening up the burn cycle from 14 hrs to 8-10 hrs instead at higher temps. I plan to play with this idea late this winter. This also can assist in starting fires quite nicely. If you haven't seen the Green Start heat coil that injects 1400 deg air and starts fires with hot air, you should check them out. pretty cool. Load stove entirely, shut door, push ignitor button and walk away. Quadrafire I believe has them in their stoves. As well something I have become interested in is adding on a battery powered back up generator. We all know the concerns over power loss especially if one is not home when it happens. I have seen some back up generators these days that charge while the power is on and can provide easily enough power for like 7 hrs to run the tundra in a power outage. These units are pre set an will turn on with power loss and power anything you plug into them. Power will run thru while charging. I think this would be nice addition to the Tundra setup and make me feel better as I have power outages at least once a winter. Supposedly these unit can run refrigerators and a few other appliances for around 7 hrs on battery. I would guess just running tundra it would easily perform to its spec. We all know consumer items are never as good as they claim especially battery stuff.


----------



## jb6l6gc

maple1 said:


> Firm believer here in regular frequent HX cleanings. I don't have a Tundra - or a furnace. But my boiler has tubes, and Sunday mornings seem to be the time they get brushed. Seems to fit in with the rest of the lazy day, only takes 5 minutes or so and I usually do it between a couple other puttering things I put off all week. And a coffee.


Can agree there just did mine after about 1.5 cord!  Also figured out my primary air damper plate problem. Seems mine is slightly warped and straightens out when heated up.


----------



## buckbane

Hi guys,

The damper on my Tundra will not open. I checked the linkage rod at the damper and the motor, and nothing is amiss. Did the damper motor go bad do you think? This is the second season this unit will have been in operation. I did install a temp. controller, so it runs the motor a little more, but not an inordinate amount. Thanks for any feedback.


----------



## trx250r87

My damper motor was replaced under warranty after about a year. It started off weak, like it was skipping, then failed completely. SBI was good about sending a new one.


----------



## brenndatomu

buckbane said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> The damper on my Tundra will not open. I checked the linkage rod at the damper and the motor, and nothing is amiss. Did the damper motor go bad do you think? This is the second season this unit will have been in operation. I did install a temp. controller, so it runs the motor a little more, but not an inordinate amount. Thanks for any feedback.


If you can check for power at the motor, that will tell the story for sure. If you turn the manual switch to "on" when the firebox is not hot, then you should have 24V AC power (and ground) at the motor. If you have that and it is not working then yes, its bad.


----------



## Erik MN

Hi all, I have been considering purchasing a Tundra from Menards as they now are closing them out at a cost of about $800.  I am looking for a replacement to my wore out Hot Blast furnace for my shop area.  It is not huge, 24' deep x 40' wide x 9' ceilings.  The chimney is a very standard concrete block chimney with a 9 x 9 clay flue tile lining.  I have been looking at the Tundra for about three years.  I have been reading a lot of the information on forums and this thread specifically (thank you for all of the great info).  It sounds like there are some modifications or add ons that some have made.  It also sounds like a different animal as far as running compared to the Hot Blast with smaller very seasoned splits (which would not be any issue).  I certainly would not be running this every day or non-stop, but curious if you all would think it would be a reasonable unit for this application.  For that price, I am strongly considering going this route.  Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have.


----------



## brenndatomu

Erik MN said:


> Hi all, I have been considering purchasing a Tundra from Menards as they now are closing them out at a cost of about $800.  I am looking for a replacement to my wore out Hot Blast furnace for my shop area.  It is not huge, 24' deep x 40' wide x 9' ceilings.  The chimney is a very standard concrete block chimney with a 9 x 9 clay flue tile lining.  I have been looking at the Tundra for about three years.  I have been reading a lot of the information on forums and this thread specifically (thank you for all of the great info).  It sounds like there are some modifications or add ons that some have made.  It also sounds like a different animal as far as running compared to the Hot Blast with smaller very seasoned splits (which would not be any issue).  I certainly would not be running this every day or non-stop, but curious if you all would think it would be a reasonable unit for this application.  For that price, I am strongly considering going this route.  Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have.


Hi Erik, the Tundra doesn't have the "raw horsepower" that the HB has (kinda like the "tortoise and the hare" thing)but I think you'll find it will do a nice job in this space especially since the unit (I assume) is right out in the space where you are heating...a lot of radiant heat to be had off the front of these things. It will sure enough use less wood and burn cleaner than the HB!


----------



## Erik MN

brenndatomu said:


> Hi Erik, the Tundra doesn't have the "raw horsepower" that the HB has (kinda like the "tortoise and the hare thing")but I think you'll find it will do a nice job in this space especially since the unit (I assume) is right out in the space where you are heating...a lot of radiant heat to be had off the front of these things. It will sure enough use less wood and burn cleaner than the HB!



Awesome - thanks so much for the reply.  Yes, I think radiant heat would be an additional benefit.  One of the things that I was most excited about with the Tundra is the fact that there is glass in the door.  Being able to see the fire would be very nice.  Thanks again!


----------



## jb6l6gc

Erik MN said:


> Awesome - thanks so much for the reply.  Yes, I think radiant heat would be an additional benefit.  One of the things that I was most excited about with the Tundra is the fact that there is glass in the door.  Being able to see the fire would be very nice.  Thanks again!


Take it from me who replaced my hotblast. This thing is a totally different animal. I thought i was a decent wood burner then I had to throw everything out the window I knew about how to operate a wood furnace and learn again. Beauty is now I don't get up religiously at 2am to load the old red beast. Can't say I miss it. That hotblast always scared me a little bit!


----------



## jb6l6gc

Just sent all info to sbi they want about my damper being warped. Now it's my turn to test their customer service and warranty


----------



## Erik MN

jb6l6gc said:


> Take it from me who replaced my hotblast. This thing is a totally different animal. I thought i was a decent wood burner then I had to throw everything out the window I knew about how to operate a wood furnace and learn again. Beauty is now I don't get up religiously at 2am to load the old red beast. Can't say I miss it. That hotblast always scared me a little bit!



Thanks for the info!  I have enjoyed reading all of the posts on how it operates and how different it is. The hot blast has done its job for many years, but this one also scares me now.  I am thinking the Tundra will be a good way to go!  Thanks again.


----------



## Darbycrash

Tundra was delivered and schlepped down the stairs today. Still waiting on Northline to send the chimney liner. 
Contacted SBI about sending me the upgraded frontal fire bricks and they said all they need is a invoice copy and it will be on its way. Serial on this unit is 17## an early 2014 model. 

Anyone see an issue of running one of the 8 inch supply pipes about 13 foot or so and tapping in down the plenum? I think I may insulate the longer run.


----------



## Digger79

Darbycrash said:


> Tundra was delivered and schlepped down the stairs today. Still waiting on Northline to send the chimney liner.
> Contacted SBI about sending me the upgraded frontal fire bricks and they said all they need is a invoice copy and it will be on its way. Serial on this unit is 17## an early 2014 model.
> 
> Anyone see an issue of running one of the 8 inch supply pipes about 13 foot or so and tapping in down the plenum? I think I may insulate the longer run.


Well Id look to Double D, Steely Dan, and Brenndatomu for solid highly experienced advise. Most everything I've learned about wood stoves period and Tundras dribbled down from those guys on here. I would say one 8" output would restrict the air flow too much(cfm's) and not allow the tundra to properly strip heat from the plenum. U would likely get hot air longer but I don't think you would get as good of volume of hot air and risk over heating the plenum. The biggest problem I see with this though is lose of volume of heated air. I would guess twice the amount of hot air is worth more than half the amount of slightly hotter air slightly longer. I do not think the increase in temp and time of delivering hot air would be enough to over power the advantage of the volume and removal of air from the plenum the two 8" outputs would provide. And it will certainly void the warranty.. not that most of us on here haven't done that with the slightest mod. lol


----------



## Darbycrash

Digger79 said:


> Well Id look to Double D, Steely Dan, and Brenndatomu for solid highly experienced advise. Most everything I've learned about wood stoves period and Tundras dribbled down from those guys on here. I would say one 8" output would restrict the air flow too much(cfm's) and not allow the tundra to properly strip heat from the plenum. U would likely get hot air longer but I don't think you would get as good of volume of hot air and risk over heating the plenum. The biggest problem I see with this though is lose of volume of heated air. I would guess twice the amount of hot air is worth more than half the amount of slightly hotter air slightly longer. I do not think the increase in temp and time of delivering hot air would be enough to over power the advantage of the volume and removal of air from the plenum the two 8" outputs would provide. And it will certainly void the warranty.. not that most of us on here haven't done that with the slightest mod. lol




Sorry, I worded it poorly. I am going to be using both 8 inch pipes. However, one is only going to be about a meter long, while the other, which will supply further down the main trunk of the plenum, will be around 4 meters long. I am mostly just concerned about losing too much heat on the longer run and having a temp imbalance throughout the home.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Darbycrash said:


> Sorry, I worded it poorly. I am going to be using both 8 inch pipes. However, one is only going to be about a meter long, while the other, which will supply further down the main trunk of the plenum, will be around 4 meters long. I am mostly just concerned about losing too much heat on the longer run and having a temp imbalance throughout the home.



Are both runs tapping into the same plenum? If so why tap 1 in further away? What are you actually trying to accomplish/avoid by doing this?


----------



## Darbycrash

STIHLY DAN said:


> Are both runs tapping into the same plenum? If so why tap 1 in further away? What are you actually trying to accomplish/avoid by doing this?



Yes, they will both be going to the same plenum. Basically I am trying to heat the upstairs as much as I can, and the main line that runs through the wall to the upstairs bedrooms is at the far end of the plenum. And also, the location down on that end has less of a conjunction of AC line sets and hot water piping making it easier to get into and run the ductwork.


----------



## Digger79

Darbycrash said:


> Sorry, I worded it poorly. I am going to be using both 8 inch pipes. However, one is only going to be about a meter long, while the other, which will supply further down the main trunk of the plenum, will be around 4 meters long. I am mostly just concerned about losing too much heat on the longer run and having a temp imbalance throughout the home.


Well i have a manual damper in one of the 8" outputs. It helps me zone my temps as one output goes to back of house an other to front. I have isolated duct work installed separate from the gas furnance ducting.


----------



## DoubleB

Darbycrash said:


> I am trying to heat the upstairs as much as I can



Another option is to partially close the downstairs dampers.  I'm not the duct pro, but since the Tundra only has two 8" outlets, and they dump into the plenum (at roughly the same static pressure), that the difference between 1 meter and 4 meter could give fairly unbalanced flow between the two outlets.  I don't know if it's a huge deal, but my outlets are 12 inches long before dumping into the same plenum, and I still have different temperatures on the outlets, I don't know why.  My assumption is that uneven temperatures in the outlets are probably ok, but suggests to me that there is less airflow on one side than the other, which suggests that some heat is going up the chimney that wasn't transferred to my house.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I would install them close together and damper down the 1st floor. But running a separate line should not hurt.


----------



## Wood1Dennis

laynes69 said:


> Our Caddy doesn't have a controller on it, and after 8, 10, 12 hours depending on the weather the house is within a degree or two when we wake where the thermostat is set. It was 32 last night, and after a 12 hour burn, the thermostat was set at 73 and the house was 72 with enough coals to still cycle the blower. When it's much colder in the single digits, the thermostat still keeps the house within a degreeor two after 8 hours. The days of wild temperature swings dissapeared when we upgraded.



I am running a Caddy in the basement of our new home. Love it, it works great and I get good house temperature control, especially as I learn how to fire the furnace. 
One thing I struggled with is the open or closed operation of the thermostat controlled damper. I never felt like i could get it set so that it worked for every condition. So I modified it a bit. I added a turnbuckle in place of the chain that pulls the damper open. Now I can control how far the damper opens when the thermostat calls for heat. More open when it is colder outside, house is cold or when I am kindling a new fire, etc. Less open when I want to hold the fire longer, warmer weather, etc. Great addition to otherwise completely stock setup.


----------



## sloeffle

Wood1Dennis said:


> One thing I struggled with is the open or closed operation of the thermostat controlled damper. I never felt like i could get it set so that it worked for every condition. So I modified it a bit. I added a turnbuckle in place of the chain that pulls the damper open. Now I can control how far the damper opens when the thermostat calls for heat. More open when it is colder outside, house is cold or when I am kindling a new fire, etc. Less open when I want to hold the fire longer, warmer weather, etc. Great addition to otherwise completely stock setup.


Do you have any pics of how you have your turnbuckle setup ?

Scott


----------



## laynes69

I tweak the tab that connects the damper chain.


----------



## Wood1Dennis

sloeffle said:


> Do you have any pics of how you have your turnbuckle setup ?
> 
> Scott


HI Scott,

See attached pics. Pretty simple really, but it works.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


----------



## Erik MN

brenndatomu said:


> Hi Erik, the Tundra doesn't have the "raw horsepower" that the HB has (kinda like the "tortoise and the hare" thing)but I think you'll find it will do a nice job in this space especially since the unit (I assume) is right out in the space where you are heating...a lot of radiant heat to be had off the front of these things. It will sure enough use less wood and burn cleaner than the HB!



Thanks again for the information.  I went to Menards to purchase the model they have on close out.  It is an older model from what I have read here without the front firebrick modification or other upgrades that the newer furnaces have.  I think it is the one that has been on display for the past few years (thus the discounted price of $800).  I guess my concern would be with all of the cracks that you all have run into.  In all of your opinions, would this be a deal breaker?  I have read about the issues and successes that you guys have come up with and figured out.  Just am very hesitant to go and purchase with it being an older model.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!


----------



## brenndatomu

Erik MN said:


> I guess my concern would be with all of the cracks that you all have run into. In all of your opinions, would this be a deal breaker?


Well, since I bought mine 2-3 years old and already cracked for a little less than you can get that new one for...I say go for it...I don't regret mine


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## STIHLY DAN

For $400 extra dollars I would go with the latest model. Then again, I don't know if any sales are going on. Maybe a newer one is even more. I dunno.


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> For $400 extra dollars I would go with the latest model. Then again, I don't know if any sales are going on. Maybe a newer one is even more. I dunno.


The T2 is ~$2k at Menards...~$1750 on sale


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## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> The T2 is ~$2k at Menards...~$1750 on sale



$400 more, $950 more, Whats the difference? Pfft, everyone always nit picking the numbers.


----------



## Builderml

Erik MN said:


> Thanks again for the information.  I went to Menards to purchase the model they have on close out.  It is an older model from what I have read here without the front firebrick modification or other upgrades that the newer furnaces have.  I think it is the one that has been on display for the past few years (thus the discounted price of $800).  I guess my concern would be with all of the cracks that you all have run into.  In all of your opinions, would this be a deal breaker?  I have read about the issues and successes that you guys have come up with and figured out.  Just am very hesitant to go and purchase with it being an older model.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts!


For $800 take it and run with it. If it cracks you'll end up getting your money back. I would guess that at $800 it pays for itself in one season of use. Best of luck.


----------



## sloeffle

Wood1Dennis said:


> HI Scott,
> 
> See attached pics. Pretty simple really, but it works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the pics. 

I have been using a small finishing nail to set the height of my flap for the last few years. Like you said, depending on the weather and wood conditions the standard setting might be too much or too little for getting the fire started.

Scott


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## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Thanks for the pics.
> 
> I have been using a small finishing nail to set the height of my flap for the last few years. Like you said, depending on the weather and wood conditions the standard setting might be too much or too little for getting the fire started.
> 
> Scott





Adjustable damper...


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## TDD11

I didn't realize that the glass cleans so easily with a wet paper towel dipped in ashes, here I thought I needed wood stove glass cleaner.. I'm in love again just having a clean window!!


----------



## Darbycrash

I got the tundra up and running and I am now a little freaked about CO in the house. My CO detectors have a *Peak Level* function that will show the ppm of the highest reading the meter has seen. Today I had 42 on the basement one, and 12 on the upstairs one. I made one mistake today and was emptying the coals/ash out into the pan and had the door open quite a long time, which could have made my CO levels rise. They did not rise high enough and long enough to alarm the detector, however this is still quite unnerving. Since I reset the peak levels, the one next to the furnace is 0 and the 2nd story bedroom is 10.

I am beginning to wonder if the furnace is sucking the gas venting out of the LP water heater back into the basement since I do not currently have a return air hooked up. I cracked the basement windows in the mean time 

No actual "alarms" yet. Just me checking the peak levels every day.


----------



## DoubleB

Darbycrash said:


> CO in the house.



You're definitely right to notice the CO and figure this out.  I don't know the answer, keep experimenting like you're doing to figure out what does and doesn't affect CO readings.

I don't remember when your unit was made.  Do you know if it has the ash pan fix?  Early units let the blower blow air into the ash pan, which let the people air and the fire air mix, and CO into the house.  But I'm thinking this was only a problem if you actually used the ash pan.  SBI began welding the ash pan drawer closed long ago.  See pages 68 until about page 70-71 or so, starting with post #1695.


----------



## brenndatomu

My ash pan has never been used...ever. I scoop ashes right into a metal bucket.
The only time I get any smoke/fumes in the house when I have the door open is if I forgot to open the (illegal ) key damper, or the chimney needs cleaned badly (yeah, that happened once )


----------



## Darbycrash

Thanks Dub. 

I also wondered this about the ash pan. If the plug was leaking, the CO that the coals are making will drop directly down into that ash pan area and could potentially be blown into the homes ductwork . I cannot remember if my ash pan is separate from the blower or not. I can tell you that my furnaces heat exchanger is not welded and there is the expansion gap there around it. 

I need to add a little more control to this unit as well. I am yet to see the high limit snap-switch go off even though I know a few times it should have. I also need to add the loading timer switch, and a burn coals switch to the unit.


----------



## garmford

If your return line isn't hooked up the system you should leave your basement door open to help relieve the negative pressure in the basement. Do you have a fresh air make up as part of your hvac system?


----------



## Digger79

Ok so I am finding this locust.. I think its just black not honey.. really doesn't burn well alone. Needs some higher flame woods mixed in with it.. the problem.. I have more locust than ash by far rt now... oh well. It does burn super hot just coals pretty bad if not mixed well. So I am still pondering the issue of burning off the coals at the end of a burn. Seems if I load the Tundra to the max, coals wind up covered in so much ash they just insulate. sure they stay there for ever but put off no heat to speak of. I knocked around the idea of installing a temp controlled air injector that would come on at super low temps and drive air into the coal bed.. This will take some money, time and likely welding to be done right not to mention engineering to overcome closure of the port when not being used so as to maintain the factory amount of intake on re burn cycles. May get kinda complicated. The other idea is simply burning smaller hotter loads which I have been aware of with Tundra for a while now. I had the grate in my cart at mendards and put it back. lol. possibly using this grate to push a smaller load up closer to the plenum could be more effiecnt than loading the Tundra to the max cause seems Im still only getting real benefit from the upper 2/3rds say of the load that way. My main worry with the grate is getting above the air intake under the loading door causing the air to take two 90 deg bends to hit the coals rather than being sucked strait in with no grate. Sooo... its seems possible that the size of the fire box is actually a tad too large or tall rather. A wider box or longer but much shorter I would think would provide better heating from the same volume of wood. Imagine burning a 6" tall load spread out =to the same volume as a 12" tall load but inside a 8"-10" tall box instead of a taller box similar to Tundra's.  Same volume of wood burned closer to the plenum and less ash covering coals at the ends of burns. I may be on to something here.. lol probably not


----------



## Digger79

We need a fireproof little troll who lives inside the firebox to come out and stir the coals and pile them toward the front of the stove at the end of the burns. That would be tough to engineer but a firebox floor that could rise slowly as the fire burns down.. now that may be possible... tough but possible to engineer and freakin awesome if ya could make it work!


----------



## jb6l6gc

I'm having the same problem right now too!


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> I'm having the same problem right now too!


If you need to load more than every eight hours you will begin to accumulate coals, even more so if you are using traditional "high BTU" woods. IMO its best to just supplement your heat load with oil/gas/electric/whatever heat (or in my case, fire up a second wood fire) if Tundra/Heatmax can't keep up. It sure makes things less frustrating...no shame in using a bit of fossil fuel sometimes...I mean, after all, I think most of us heat with wood to reduce the heating bill...and you've still accomplished that, right?


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> If you need to load more than every eight hours you will begin to accumulate coals, even more so if you are using traditional "high BTU" woods. IMO its best to just supplement your heat load with oil/gas/electric/whatever heat (or in my case, fire up a second wood fire) if Tundra/Heatmax can't keep up. It sure makes things less frustrating...no shame in using a bit of fossil fuel sometimes...I mean, after all, I think most of us heat with wood to reduce the heating bill...and you've still accomplished that, right?


Yeah but the problem is waisting those coals. The heat is note high enough for a large fire to be useful beyond 8-10 hrs so loading two smaller fires works better for sure. U are right though supplementing during coal burn off works well. I do that with the gas during mild winter and in brutal cold use the drolet 1400i inside to balance things out which heats the crap out of the house. lol. I like to get it up around 75 or more during single digits so temp drops stay above 65-70. lol. Burns a bunch of wood


----------



## Digger79

we're trying to squeeze every last little dribble of heat out of our burns. its a sickness. U understand.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> we're trying to squeeze every last little dribble of heat out of our burns


Yup, I hear ya...that's why I like the speed controller on the blower...it will run on low for hours driving the last bit o heat from the coals into the house...it was mainly lost up the chimney before the speed controller...


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Yup, I hear ya...that's why I like the speed controller on the blower...it will run on low for hours driving the last bit o heat from the coals into the house...it was mainly lost up the chimney before the speed controller...


My issue with diving into the time and cost of putting in a variable speed control for the fan is due to having already ran the fan at lower speeds all the way up to the highest. never noticed much difference in actual heat value other than temp drops in the house would happen faster and sooner on lower speeds. Seems for me the higher speed setting is needed due to my long duct runs and need for higher static pressure so using lower speeds at anytime I feel is counter productive for my setup.


----------



## KC Matt

Digger79 said:


> We need a fireproof little troll who lives inside the firebox to come out and stir the coals and pile them toward the front of the stove at the end of the burns. That would be tough to engineer but a firebox floor that could rise slowly as the fire burns down.. now that may be possible... tough but possible to engineer and freakin awesome if ya could make it work!



Having a controller on the damper has helped immensely in controlling the coalbed.  As your fire dies off, having a controller open the damper will burn off the coals, keeping the heat output up in the process.   You can buy a cheap unit for $20 on Amazon if you're inclined, or something more reliable for $70.

When it's really cold, below zero overnight and 10 degree highs during the day, my Tundra can just manage to keep the house in the low 60s as a low, mid 60s as a high.  During those cold snaps having a second wood appliance helps immensely.


----------



## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> Having a controller on the damper has helped immensely in controlling the coalbed.  As your fire dies off, having a controller open the damper will burn off the coals, keeping the heat output up in the process.   You can buy a cheap unit for $20 on Amazon if you're inclined, or something more reliable for $70.
> 
> When it's really cold, below zero overnight and 10 degree highs during the day, my Tundra can just manage to keep the house in the low 60s as a low, mid 60s as a high.  During those cold snaps having a second wood appliance helps immensely.



You mean like this?






I have got my Tundra dialed in an operating at top factory spec. My tundra is in a stand alone garage an keeps house around 71-72 most the day during teens an drops to around 65-66 by end of a 10 hr work day. In single digits an below it would be closer to 62-63 when i got home after 10 hrs but i supplement w either the 1400i driving house up to 75 or using gas to balance house out in single digits an colder. 

Back to the point.. at this point i am trying to improve upon an nearly ideal setup really. I am likely going to break out the tabs on the main damper to make the intake there larger again. I see no issues w that an benefit when burning of coals after 8-10 hrs. SBI did this along w other things to slow the heating to help stop cracking. After operating Tundras for a few years, having had first unit crack an be replaced w updated Tundra.. i am confident the main damper intake hole size was not part of the equation. It does not fire much faster at all with the larger side intakes on main damper so im going back to them for larger volume of air at end of burns. After firing my damper stays closed for about 6 hrs anyhow before temp controller opens it at low draft speed(flu temp)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Digger79

All in all as mentioned in this thread before and in the operating manual of the Tundra.. Smaller fires is really key. I get forgetful and try to load the thing to the top just to be reminded this simply covers the coals in too much ash causing 16 hour burns or better but with no heat after 8-10 hrs cause the coals are too insulated. Def works better to build smaller loads or very loosely stacked loads. Last night I put in a smaller load and woke up to a nice amount of coals just barely enough to restart. Honestly I thing its simply about finding that happy medium with the loads that works best. This is partially why I am leaning towards the grate. I feel the firebox is simply too tall and loading it to the top is counter productive. I was thinking of ways to get a better burn when loading stove above firebox door.. which is not recommended to begin with.. lol. But... if we good get more air injected into the coals the larger loads would work better. So I believe I'm going to start with taking out the tabs on the main damper putting main intake back to Tundra 1's original design on that part. Beyond that I am interested in a low coal burn of port being added with a temp controlled air injector at the base of the coal bed. Not sure Im going to go that far though. Maybe just learn to work with smaller appropriate loads. The idea here is to add a little more higher heat to the burn cycle when over loading the stove. (past the top of the door). When I load loosely and at or below firebox door or smaller loads this is really not much of an issue. Somewhere in this thread this season Brenndatomu mentioned loading the stove as full as you can with out damaging the 2ndary pipes.. Not sure why cause he knows better.  I heard this in the back of my head and did it a few times reminding my self when I came home why this was not all that effective. Wind up with way to many coals insulated by way too much ash.


----------



## Digger79

I think brenndatomu mentioned this before too and that is building a loose stack as close to the top as you can but not wall to wall. like a small tower of wood in the middle of the box.. can def make for a killer burn. I have had great luck with those loads. Again firebox not slammed full with wood but built in the middle stacked as high as you can.


----------



## KC Matt

Hey Digger, I don't mean to come across as being an expert, I forgot you had your setup dialed in.  This thread is so long it takes a while to look back at who posted what.  

My setup is sure not working as well as yours.  We are supposed to see 50 degree days this week so I'll be able to shut down and install the manometer.


----------



## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> Hey Digger, I don't mean to come across as being an expert, I forgot you had your setup dialed in.  This thread is so long it takes a while to look back at who posted what.
> 
> My setup is sure not working as well as yours.  We are supposed to see 50 degree days this week so I'll be able to shut down and install the manometer.


Your all good. I was just having a little fun. Im becoming an expert on this stuff but only thanks to this thread. lol. I realized you had forgotten who I was and decided to play a bit of a jack arse by saying "you mean like this?" lol sorry your definitely fine and just trying to be helpful. I rem your user name however from earlier in the thread. Your advice was spot on. no worries. If you know something share it. no harm no foul you didn't come off as a know it all in the least my friend. My setup required a ton of work, research and help from the true experts on this feed. having as much smooth solid duct as possible was key in proper CFMs thru the duct setup.


----------



## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> Hey Digger, I don't mean to come across as being an expert, I forgot you had your setup dialed in.  This thread is so long it takes a while to look back at who posted what.
> 
> My setup is sure not working as well as yours.  We are supposed to see 50 degree days this week so I'll be able to shut down and install the manometer.


lol I installed my manometer during a peak burn! lmao. I like playing with fire I suppose. I used a copper pipe stubbed out about 2 feet then attached the rubber hose to the manometer. Was a little hot reaching inside the flu but my baro is right next to my manometer port so I used a glove.. lmao. yes I am one of those.. "can't wait gunna figure a way to do it right now dammit" people. Sometimes pays off sometimes not so much. lol keeps life interesting though!


----------



## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> Hey Digger, I don't mean to come across as being an expert, I forgot you had your setup dialed in.  This thread is so long it takes a while to look back at who posted what.
> 
> My setup is sure not working as well as yours.  We are supposed to see 50 degree days this week so I'll be able to shut down and install the manometer.


And honestly you don't really have to get a nut and fitting on there you really can just drill an appropriate size hole, put a little bend on a copper tube and hang it inside the hole. The tiny amount of air that may get in around the copper pipe is not really much of a factor in anything. I have actually left open hole in the flu at times and noticed no difference in flu operations. So tech you can add it in even if the flu is at 800 deg!


----------



## Digger79

The foil is because i am lazy an just jammed the copper tubing on the fitting stretching the copper a bit but was still loose so i just wrapped it w foil tape. Has held for a year or more now easy. Why mess w it? Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KC Matt

What are you guys using to cover the gap in the filter box where the filter goes?  It's pulling a LOT of cold air in that gap which I just noticed last night.  For now I put a strip of blue painters tape across it but a strip of thin, pliable rubber would be a more permanent fix.


----------



## KC Matt

Ahh I see.  Is that double wall?  With double wall I'm guessing you drill the outer layer big enough to drop the copper to the inner layer then seal it will stove cement.


----------



## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> Ahh I see.  Is that double wall?  With double wall I'm guessing you drill the outer layer big enough to drop the copper to the inner layer then seal it will stove cement.



Nope thats single wall. Such a short run to chimney double wouldn't even fit. Bout 1 1/2' or less into chimney. Anyways i dont really think you'll need cement. The cracks around the hole will  only draw air in. For example my baro does not seal tight. There is a gap around the flapper part and the outer ring. Due to draft on chimney most holes or cracks simply suck in air. None that will greatly affect draft speed like w baro would but same principle. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Digger79

Im saying u can just drill an appropriate size whole, bend a hook from copper tube, insert hang attach tube an go. Will work fine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> Brenndatomu mentioned loading the stove as full as you can with out damaging the 2ndary pipes.. Not sure why cause he knows better


Yes I do. But, I do fill it to the top when the weather gets like it has been the last few days. The key is making sure there is still room for air/fire flow. I especially like leaving a gap in the wood, at least toward the front, for the boost air nozzle (bottom, front and center...which I make sure is cleared off on every load) to be able to blow on the coals that I just raked up for the reload...a couple pieces of kindlin wood placed right there will get the flames going right quick. I don't like to let the coals build heat until the wood catches like some people do, that causes smoke and smoke causes creosote, so I try to get the flames going ASAP, I'll even drop a match on the hot coals (or hit it with the auto light propane torch) if things don't go right away.
Anywho, by leaving a little gap in between the wood front and center, the fire will progress to the top and get the secondary burn going pretty quickly...and that's where the real heat (and clean burn) is.

Speaking of filling 'er up, now that many of us have just dealt with a real cold spell here lately, it is probably a good time to remind everybody to check to make sure your baffles are properly in place. I checked mine last night and they had scooched forward 1/2" or so somehow.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> What are you guys using to cover the gap in the filter box where the filter goes


Gap? I don't have a gap around my filter. Now, there _are_ gaps around the metal "knock out" plates in the blower housing where you can mount the filter in one of three places (rear or either side) I had originally covered all the gaps but then I remembered my Yukon furnace. It has a 1" gap between the filter and its housing...on purpose. It's for when the power goes out, so you still get _some_ airflow for gravity heating (or keeping the firebox from melting down...assuming you have properly designed duct work) Yes it leaves a little unfiltered air in at all times, but what else are you gonna do without making things really complicated? (read: expensive)
My Yukon furnace is actually UL certified to be able to run (at 50% loading) without the power on. They tell you to completely remove the filter ASAP when the power goes out for maximum cooling of the firebox, and maximum heat to the house. If the power goes out when you are burning, I'm sure removing the filter from Tundra (or any wood/coal furnace for that matter) would be a really good idea too...


----------



## jacksnipe

Digger79 said:


> And honestly you don't really have to get a nut and fitting on there you really can just drill an appropriate size hole, put a little bend on a copper tube and hang it inside the hole. The tiny amount of air that may get in around the copper pipe is not really much of a factor in anything. I have actually left open hole in the flu at times and noticed no difference in flu operations. So tech you can add it in even if the flu is at 800 deg!


 Which direction is the opening on the small copper tube facing. I am using the bent pitot tube on the manometer & it mentions the opening to be 90 degrees to the air flow. Are you also measuring the plenum static pressure the same as your doing for the draft in the chimney


----------



## Digger79

jacksnipe said:


> Which direction is the opening on the small copper tube facing. I am using the bent pitot tube on the manometer & it mentions the opening to be 90 degrees to the air flow. Are you also measuring the plenum static pressure the same as your doing for the draft in the chimney


not sure what you meant with that first question I posted a photo a few messages up. No not measuring plenum or duct work just flu for firebox damper control.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Gap? I don't have a gap around my filter. Now, there _are_ gaps around the metal "knock out" plates in the blower housing where you can mount the filter in one of three places (rear or either side) I had originally covered all the gaps but then I remembered my Yukon furnace. It has a 1" gap between the filter and its housing...on purpose. It's for when the power goes out, so you still get _some_ airflow for gravity heating (or keeping the firebox from melting down...assuming you have properly designed duct work) Yes it leaves a little unfiltered air in at all times, but what else are you gonna do without making things really complicated? (read: expensive)
> My Yukon furnace is actually UL certified to be able to run (at 50% loading) without the power on. They tell you to completely remove the filter ASAP when the power goes out for maximum cooling of the firebox, and maximum heat to the house. If the power goes out when you are burning, I'm sure removing the filter from Tundra (or any wood/coal furnace for that matter) would be a really good idea too...


Ive seen a battery backup that should power the tundra for 24 hrs easy. been wanting to add it someday.


----------



## jacksnipe

Digger79 said:


> not sure what you meant with that first question I posted a photo a few messages up. No not measuring plenum or duct work just flu for firebox damper control.


You mentioned that you bent a piece of copper tube & placed it through a drilled hole in your stove pipe to measure the draft . Was the opening of the copper tube facing the air flow. I believe in doing this will result in a false reading, the opening must be 90 degrees to the air flow


----------



## brenndatomu

jacksnipe said:


> You mentioned that you bent a piece of copper tube & placed it through a drilled hole in your stove pipe to measure the draft . Was the opening of the copper tube facing the air flow. I believe in doing this will result in a false reading, the opening must be 90 degrees to the air flow


You are correct when testing the high speed positive pressures of ductwork...I think you'll find it makes very little to no difference when testing chimney draft


----------



## KC Matt

brenndatomu said:


> Gap? I don't have a gap around my filter. Now, there _are_ gaps around the metal "knock out" plates in the blower housing where you can mount the filter in one of three places (rear or either side) I had originally covered all the gaps but then I remembered my Yukon furnace. It has a 1" gap between the filter and its housing...on purpose. It's for when the power goes out, so you still get _some_ airflow for gravity heating (or keeping the firebox from melting down...assuming you have properly designed duct work) Yes it leaves a little unfiltered air in at all times, but what else are you gonna do without making things really complicated? (read: expensive)
> My Yukon furnace is actually UL certified to be able to run (at 50% loading) without the power on. They tell you to completely remove the filter ASAP when the power goes out for maximum cooling of the firebox, and maximum heat to the house. If the power goes out when you are burning, I'm sure removing the filter from Tundra (or any wood/coal furnace for that matter) would be a really good idea too...



Maybe you don't have the same factory filter housing mine has, but on mine you insert the filter from the back of the unit and after the filter is inserted there is a gap on each side of the filter that's about 3/8".   There is nothing to cover the gap from the factory so the return air sucks a huge amount of outside air at that point.  In my case the furnace is in the garage and during this cold snap, it's very cold in there.

Covering that massive leak would not in any way prevent heat from rising in a power outage.  Nor would a filter, since mine is maintained.  However, having it open during powered operation draws in prodigious amounts of sub-freezing air immediately before the heat exchanger which rapidly cools the HE, causing the firebox to cool, causing the damper to open, causing a needless wasting of fuel.  As a side 'benefit', it's drawing in outside air which has been at or below zero degrees, cooling both the incoming combustion supply and the floor under my bedroom. 

The amount of air this leak was drawing from outside is incredible.  I actually noticed it the other night while sitting in the garage because there was so much air flowing across the garage from the garage door area.  After I sealed the filter box, the draw across the garage is no longer noticeable.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> Maybe you don't have the same factory filter housing mine has, but on mine you insert the filter from the back of the unit and after the filter is inserted there is a gap on each side of the filter that's about 3/8".   There is nothing to cover the gap from the factory so the return air sucks a huge amount of outside air at that point.  In my case the furnace is in the garage and during this cold snap, it's very cold in there.
> 
> Covering that massive leak would not in any way prevent heat from rising in a power outage.  Nor would a filter, since mine is maintained.  However, having it open during powered operation draws in prodigious amounts of sub-freezing air immediately before the heat exchanger which rapidly cools the HE, causing the firebox to cool, causing the damper to open, causing a needless wasting of fuel.  As a side 'benefit', it's drawing in outside air which has been at or below zero degrees, cooling both the incoming combustion supply and the floor under my bedroom.
> 
> The amount of air this leak was drawing from outside is incredible.  I actually noticed it the other night while sitting in the garage because there was so much air flowing across the garage from the garage door area.  After I sealed the filter box, the draw across the garage is no longer noticeable.


So it sounds like you have the return air hooked up...that may be the difference.
I bet you would be surprised how much the filter restricts flow with gravity heating....even a clean filter.


----------



## Digger79

jacksnipe said:


> You mentioned that you bent a piece of copper tube & placed it through a drilled hole in your stove pipe to measure the draft . Was the opening of the copper tube facing the air flow. I believe in doing this will result in a false reading, the opening must be 90 degrees to the air flow


I think i may have confused the issue. I did not use a 90 deg bend. I have a strait fitting the copper is shoved onto on the outside. I mentioned simply drilling a hole an putting a 90 on a copper tube an hanging it in the hole should work fine. Which it will. That would put the pipe perpendicular to the flu. Strait in bend down 90 outside pipe. It may be i did this at first just to see it work cant rem but yes pipe is perpendicular to air flow in flu either way.


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## TDD11

All I know is that I'm ready for the "warm up" tomorrow - a high of 41°F, I haven't cleaned the stove out in a week and have a huge load of ashes to shovel out - probably 2" above the bottom of the door at this point. I have been going through the wood the last week or so.. I just reloaded my basement "wood room" Saturday with some 1 year old ash, although it is not as dry as it should be. Even with the dry ash before it, with the 0-10°F outside temps, the best I could do was about 70°F indoor temps, maybe as high as 72, and dropping into the mid 60's if I raked the coals and tried to let them burn down more before reloading. The house had a chill if I tried to go 10 hours on a load so I was doing smaller loads at 6-8 hours.

I mean I'm still happy because I never used the LP furnace but I feel there's still some heat to gain out of this Tundra. I need to make a few more improvements on my duct system for sure.



brenndatomu said:


> I especially like leaving a gap in the wood, at least toward the front, for the boost air nozzle (bottom, front and center...which I make sure is cleared off on every load) to be able to blow on the coals that I just raked up for the reload.


Stupid question #1: I know where the boost air nozzle is on the outside of the stove, but where does it go into the fire box at? It doesn't appear to go straight through into the fire box. I have felt around before and not found that boost air hole in the firebox, and with the amount of ashes I have right now, I guarantee that it is blocked. 

2. Is there any maintenance regarding the secondary burn tubes? On some good dry ash late last week, I watched the stove and did not get a good secondary burn. The middle burner was burning the full width, the front did not light off at all, and the rear was flashing flames on and off. I expected a much better secondary burn, and have previously had a much better secondary burn. If I bumped these tubes with a piece of wood, can they become unseated? Or is it more likely that they need cleaned, or that my temperature set points are not ideal?

I will post a picture of my setup, but essentially, my thermocouple and manometer are tapped almost right off the back of the stove. Out the back of the stove, I have a 90° elbow, then my barometer. The TC and manometer are essentially at the joint between the barometer and the elbow - so before the barometer. I vary my low alarm set point, right now it is 255°F and I believe my alarm hysteresis is 150°. I want to keep the stove running a little hotter, just due to the wood not being as dry as possible, my thought being the higher temps should help with reducing creosote or condensation - at the expense of burn time, which is an acceptable trade-off.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I know where the boost air nozzle is on the outside of the stove, but where does it go into the fire box at?


Its right there, it goes straight in...its only ~1/4" hole or so.


TDD11 said:


> Is there any maintenance regarding the secondary burn tubes?


Not really. As long as they are in place and look OK, they are fine. Someone posted here somewheres recently about pulling theirs out to clean 'em and that it was a complete waste of time.
Just because there wasn't an even flame out of all of them at once doesn't mean a thing...very normal.


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> So it sounds like you have the return air hooked up...that may be the difference.
> I bet you would be surprised how much the filter restricts flow with gravity heating....even a clean filter.



Yes- this is why one of the 8" outlet ducts are cold and one hot before the fan kicks in on a cold start up - gravity flow would rather go that way then though the filter.


----------



## jb6l6gc

Also depends on the filter. I started with a very good paper filter and had to go to a low end strand type filter because it was too restrictive and was causing low air flow


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Digger79 said:


> View attachment 192299
> 
> 
> The foil is because i am lazy an just jammed the copper tubing on the fitting stretching the copper a bit but was still loose so i just wrapped it w foil tape. Has held for a year or more now easy. Why mess w it? Lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



What is that ugly copper tubing doing?


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## STIHLY DAN

@Digger79 I like to do it like this.


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## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> What is that ugly copper tubing doing?


Lol what ya mean ugly? . Its nothing more than an extension to prevent the rubber hose from melting. Any bends u see in it were just to hold it in position. I rigged it up quick an re located it again leaving pipe bent. Brenn sends me this draft measuring thingy an i had to call him to figure out how to use it properly lol but all i had was a short fitting an a rubber hose w the kit so i grabbed the first piece of metal tube i could find, jammed it on over fitting an foil taped it planning on a more permanent connection that never got done an just aint really needed. I have a camera setup on the dials an was monitoring draft speeds thru out burns to move along faster in understanding were temps would be at dif draft readings. I can remotely monitor an control the entire setup from my phone. T stat, temp controller, power all of it has remote controlling capabilities using my phone an wifi junk. I been meaning to set up a over fire alarm just hadnt got around to it. I do have power loss alarms that go to my phone so I can run home if power goes out. Planning on a battery backup system ive found that will run tundra for about a day if power goes out. Charges an grid power runs thru. No kids no wife no life lol just me an the stove lmao


----------



## Digger79

STIHLY DAN said:


> @Digger79 I like to do it like this.


Yeah i got same fitting but my first tundra was over firing an i was worried id melt the rubber.. now i know the rubber be fine since my flu an fires r now under control i just never took it out.


----------



## Digger79

I think copper is pretty  Dan


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## STIHLY DAN

Digger79 said:


> No kids no wife no life lol just me



That sounds like 1 hell of a life. Yes the copper is not needed, It was a poor attempt on my part to slightly instigate you on needing it. Major fail, I'll just have to do better next time


----------



## Digger79

So Im wondering if the guy I ran into in Menards ever found this thread. Lived just south of indy or maybe a bit farther can't rem. He was looking at the Tundra on clearance and it was the old 1st model. I warned him about the cracking issues and need for proper operation to avoid it and sent him to this website and this Thread. You out there Partner? This was a month ago or more now. Hope he found the thread. Hope it helped.


----------



## Erik MN

Builderml said:


> For $800 take it and run with it. If it cracks you'll end up getting your money back. I would guess that at $800 it pays for itself in one season of use. Best of luck.



Hi guys!

Well, for better or worse I ended up purchasing a Tundra from Menards.  I couldn't pass up the deal on the few display models around in the area.  Ended up at $799 with an 11% discount off of that.  So... now comes the questions.  I read through the 86 pages of discussion and feel like I learned a ton from you all.  I am impressed at all of the modifications / upgrades many of you have done.  Before I fire it up or anything else, what do you all recommend for a new furnace with serial number 1005?  Should I be contacting SBI regarding upgrades?  Would you recommend I install some upgrades or controllers/monitoring devices?  I appreciate the advice you have given me as well as what other stuff you think I need to know.
Thanks again for all of your info!


----------



## Darbycrash

Erik MN said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> Well, for better or worse I ended up purchasing a Tundra from Menards.  I couldn't pass up the deal on the few display models around in the area.  Ended up at $799 with an 11% discount off of that.  So... now comes the questions.  I read through the 86 pages of discussion and feel like I learned a ton from you all.  I am impressed at all of the modifications / upgrades many of you have done.  Before I fire it up or anything else, what do you all recommend for a new furnace with serial number 1005?  Should I be contacting SBI regarding upgrades?  Would you recommend I install some upgrades or controllers/monitoring devices?  I appreciate the advice you have given me as well as what other stuff you think I need to know.
> Thanks again for all of your info!




I just bought mine and its a 1700 serial number. Is your heat exchanger welded where it protrudes from the front plate? Also I contacted SBI and they sent me the update kit. I think that if the exchanger is not welded and has a small gap, the cracking around it should be mitigated. However as for the door, the firebrick update should help a little


----------



## DoubleB

Erik MN said:


> Before I fire it up or anything else, what do you all recommend for a new furnace with serial number 1005?



Depends upon how interested you are to tinker on it.  If that kind of thing is fun for you, then I'd add a temp controller early on.  I'd add the front firebrick too, that's not hard.  Either way, I think it's fine to start using it straight out of the crate, but I'd just ease into it over several days.  Even if you want to do the modifications, you'll want to understand the basic, out of the box operation that you are modifying.

Edit:  Before you install, I would take off the side panels and inspect the whole guts, take pictures, etc.  You might find missing welds, and will probably find some interesting understanding of how the thing works.  I also foil taped shut the lasercut "Drolet" logo that was letting a lot of air leak into my basement.  It was a pain for me to do it after the ducts were installed.


----------



## sloeffle

TDD11 said:


> 2. Is there any maintenance regarding the secondary burn tubes? On some good dry ash late last week, I watched the stove and did not get a good secondary burn. The middle burner was burning the full width, the front did not light off at all, and the rear was flashing flames on and off. I expected a much better secondary burn, and have previously had a much better secondary burn. If I bumped these tubes with a piece of wood, can they become unseated? Or is it more likely that they need cleaned, or that my temperature set points are not ideal?


Don't waste your time cleaning the burn tubes. My Caddy has been running for 5 years and I cleaned them last month. All I got was a little bit of fine ash out of each one.

It would not be that big of a PITA but our friends up north like to bend the cotter pins every which way know to man. It probably took me an hour to do all them but the back one. I didn't want to mess with take the firebrick out.

Scott


----------



## Darbycrash

Here's my install in progress


----------



## zmcnutt

Darbycrash said:


> Here's my install in progress



Hey buddy I don't want to pick your install apart but my manual says to have 12 inches of rise out of the furnace before your first elbow. Just pointing it out because I originally planned to run elbows right out of mine just like you did. I guess the elbows right out of the furnace may cause static pressure issues somehow? I'm not sure


----------



## Digger79

zmcnutt said:


> Hey buddy I don't want to pick your install apart but my manual says to have 12 inches of rise out of the furnace before your first elbow. Just pointing it out because I originally planned to run elbows right out of mine just like you did. I guess the elbows right out of the furnace may cause static pressure issues somehow? I'm not sure


my guess would be its important for gravity flow use say in the event of a power outage. Liability issues for SBI otherwise possibly.


----------



## Digger79

zmcnutt said:


> Hey buddy I don't want to pick your install apart but my manual says to have 12 inches of rise out of the furnace before your first elbow. Just pointing it out because I originally planned to run elbows right out of mine just like you did. I guess the elbows right out of the furnace may cause static pressure issues somehow? I'm not sure


Well that and prob also liability issue for SBI if enough air cannot escape quick enough to draw heat fast enough to avoid damage to a steel stove. The 45's rt out of the plenum will def slow the air flow at the plenum over straight pipe for a few feet first. Personally how ever I kinda like it. seems it would generate better CFM over all in the duct work than using two 90 bends would.


----------



## Darbycrash

zmcnutt said:


> Hey buddy I don't want to pick your install apart but my manual says to have 12 inches of rise out of the furnace before your first elbow. Just pointing it out because I originally planned to run elbows right out of mine just like you did. I guess the elbows right out of the furnace may cause static pressure issues somehow? I'm not sure




Good Call, I must have missed this in the manual So far the house heats right up and I have not seen any ill effects due to the 45's. I may consider changing it however since my insurance will want a few pics of the install.


----------



## zmcnutt

Digger79 said:


> Well that and prob also liability issue for SBI if enough air cannot escape quick enough to draw heat fast enough to avoid damage to a steel stove. The 45's rt out of the plenum will def slow the air flow at the plenum over straight pipe for a few feet first. Personally how ever I kinda like it. seems it would generate better CFM over all in the duct work than using two 90 bends would.



That would make sense. I had originally planned to run elbows right off of the furnace would have made life a lot easier for me on my install but o happened to see the clearances.



Darbycrash said:


> Good Call, I must have missed this in the manual So far the house heats right up and I have not seen any ill effects due to the 45's. I may consider changing it however since my insurance will want a few pics of the install.



No problem just trying to look out for others. Glad I could contribute I know I have learned a lot from this group.


----------



## Erik MN

DoubleB said:


> Depends upon how interested you are to tinker on it.  If that kind of thing is fun for you, then I'd add a temp controller early on.  I'd add the front firebrick too, that's not hard.  Either way, I think it's fine to start using it straight out of the crate, but I'd just ease into it over several days.  Even if you want to do the modifications, you'll want to understand the basic, out of the box operation that you are modifying.
> 
> Edit:  Before you install, I would take off the side panels and inspect the whole guts, take pictures, etc.  You might find missing welds, and will probably find some interesting understanding of how the thing works.  I also foil taped shut the lasercut "Drolet" logo that was letting a lot of air leak into my basement.  It was a pain for me to do it after the ducts were installed.



Thanks!  I appreciate the thoughts and the ideas of taking some "new" pictures of the insides.  I emailed SBI today and they have some of the upgrade kits on the way.  I was very impressed at the prompt response.  I will get those installed and try out the first couple of burns and try to get used to it like you suggested.  I do enjoy tinkering with things, so I could definitely see myself adding some of those additional controls.  I will have to review previous posts for more specifics on those.


----------



## zmcnutt

Just curious with guys running temp controllers what you have high and low limits set at.  I originally set mine up copied from 3fordasho. Seems like my flue temp never gets above 550. Chimney draft is spot on measured with Dwyer. Burning ash seasoned a year and a half


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> Just curious with guys running temp controllers what you have high and low limits set at.  I originally set mine up copied from 3fordasho. Seems like my flue temp never gets above 550. Chimney draft is spot on measured with Dwyer. Burning ash seasoned a year and a half


Similar to what found. Setting the controller at 600* was WAY too high for my setup. I kept playing with it, backing it down 50* at a time until it seemed too far...I ended up with mine at 350*...on my sisters Tundra she likes 425*


----------



## zmcnutt

brenndatomu said:


> Similar to what found. Setting the controller at 600* was WAY too high for my setup. I kept playing with it, backing it down 50* at a time until it seemed too far...I ended up with mine at 350*...on my sisters Tundra she likes 425*



I suppose it will be something that just takes some fine tuning. I was just a little worried when my flue temps are hardly ever getting up to my high limit. I think I'm set at 550 now I may drop to 500 and see how it goes. Great set up though I really like having the low limit to keep the flue warm


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> I really like having the low limit to keep the flue warm


I quit using the low alarm, I found the tstat does the same thing for me...seems like the load "lasts longer" that way too...I could see using the low alarm to burn down excessive coals _build up_ though (like during a major cold spell)


----------



## zmcnutt

I definitely see how it could cut down on burn times. I was just paranoid about getting creosote build up. Sometimes on really cold days I will run my buck insert upstairs and that will satisfy the tstat for awhile keeping the tundra damper closed.


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> I definitely see how it could cut down on burn times. I was just paranoid about getting creosote build up. Sometimes on really cold days I will run my buck insert upstairs and that will satisfy the tstat for awhile keeping the tundra damper closed.


Yeah, it will cut down on heat output more than anything, running damper open non stop blows a ton of heat up the chimney, and gives you a huge pile of coals in under two hours...and anybody that has run an EPA firebox for long knows that it takes another 6-ish hours to burn off those coals.
As long as you are burning dry wood (< 20% internally measured) you won't have creosote buildup as long as you bring the firebox up to temp (good secondary combustion) before the damper closes. This is assuming a proper chimney setup.
My sister has had creosote issues with hers lately, I told her it was wet wood, she said no way, I went over tonight and checked the wood MC, it was 25-35%...

I do the same thing when it gets real cold, fire up the upstairs stove that is...kinda nice not having to run the crap outta either one. I have said before that Tundra performs much better maintaining heat (tstat satisfied) than it does raising the house temp more than a couple or 3 degrees (for us anyways) Like today, it has been warmer out today and I did a light load (stacked criss crossed) at 6:20 AM, the house was 72* when I loaded and the tstat is set at 72*. It is now 9:30 PM and the house is still 73* from that AM load. If Tundra is big enough to meet your heat load with the damper closed most of the time, then you will probably love this furnace...if your heat load is high and the damper is open a lot, your probably gonna be disappointed...not that this is entirely unique to Tundras...most any furnace works best when properly sized for the job.


----------



## buckbane

brenndatomu said:


> If you can check for power at the motor, that will tell the story for sure. If you turn the manual switch to "on" when the firebox is not hot, then you should have 24V AC power (and ground) at the motor. If you have that and it is not working then yes, its bad.



I've got power going into the transformer, but not coming out. I figured the transformer was bad, so I replaced it. However, I'm still getting the same results. Not sure what to make of it...did I get a faulty replacement transformer, or is there something else going on?


----------



## zmcnutt

buckbane said:


> I've got power going into the transformer, but not coming out. I figured the transformer was bad, so I replaced it. However, I'm still getting the same results. Not sure what to make of it...did I get a faulty replacement transformer, or is there something else going on?



I wonder if you could have a faulty high limit switch.


----------



## brenndatomu

buckbane said:


> I've got power going into the transformer, but not coming out. I figured the transformer was bad, so I replaced it. However, I'm still getting the same results. Not sure what to make of it...did I get a faulty replacement transformer, or is there something else going on?





zmcnutt said:


> I wonder if you could have a faulty high limit switch.


This ^ ^ ^.
 See if you have power on both sides of the HLS


----------



## TDD11

zmcnutt said:


> Just curious with guys running temp controllers what you have high and low limits set at.  I originally set mine up copied from 3fordasho. Seems like my flue temp never gets above 550. Chimney draft is spot on measured with Dwyer. Burning ash seasoned a year and a half





brenndatomu said:


> Similar to what found. Setting the controller at 600* was WAY too high for my setup. I kept playing with it, backing it down 50* at a time until it seemed too far...I ended up with mine at 350*...on my sisters Tundra she likes 425*


Curious, but if you guys drop your high temp limit, do you actually get a good secondary burn? Where are your thermocouples - how far from the stove? 

If my damper closes on a fresh load at 400-500°F, than it seems too cool for secondary burn to occur. I do get 550-615°F temps on a fresh load if the timer is set long enough. Then my high alarm shuts damper, and the stove will not see that temps above 375-400°F again for the rest of the burn. I do wonder if while the fire is building up to the 500°F+ range, that I am wasting a lot of heat up the chimney. 

I never realized til I joined this forum how much can go into wood heat.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Curious, but if you guys drop your high temp limit, do you actually get a good secondary burn


As long as the wood is dry, yes.


TDD11 said:


> Where are your thermocouples - how far from the stove?


18"...24" at the most...


TDD11 said:


> If my damper closes on a fresh load at 400-500°F, than it seems too cool for secondary burn to occur.


Wet wood...or maybe just the way it is stacked...that can affect if the "burn" takes off on the first try or not.


TDD11 said:


> I do wonder if while the fire is building up to the 500°F+ range, that I am wasting a lot of heat up the chimney.


My feeling is, yes!


TDD11 said:


> I never realized til I joined this forum how much can go into wood heat.


AGREED!


----------



## brenndatomu

That is why I went over to my sisters place last nigh, to check the wood MC...she complained of creosote, I said wet wood, she said no. Then she said the secondary burn wouldn't stay until the controller had made 2-3 trips to the high limit...I said "definitely wet wood!"...and then I went over and proved it...all her wood tested 25-35% MC tested internallly! (she had made the mistake of testing MC on the outside of the split, not a "re-split")...it tested 10% on the outside so she thought she was good to go.


----------



## zmcnutt

TDD11 said:


> Curious, but if you guys drop your high temp limit, do you actually get a good secondary burn? Where are your thermocouples - how far from the stove?
> 
> If my damper closes on a fresh load at 400-500°F, than it seems too cool for secondary burn to occur. I do get 550-615°F temps on a fresh load if the timer is set long enough. Then my high alarm shuts damper, and the stove will not see that temps above 375-400°F again for the rest of the burn. I do wonder if while the fire is building up to the 500°F+ range, that I am wasting a lot of heat up the chimney.
> 
> I never realized til I joined this forum how much can go into wood heat.



Yes my secondaries seem to burn fine as long as the fire takes off. I'm still adjusting my settings to see what burns best. My temp was just never reaching the high limit so my damper was staying open until the thermostat was satisfied. I'm considering on lowering my low limit now or completely turning it off to get longer burn time. My wood may not be fully seasoned I have not checked moisture content yet. This place has definitely helped a lot running this stove


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> That is why I went over to my sisters place last nigh, to check the wood MC...she complained of creosote, I said wet wood, she said no. Then she said the secondary burn wouldn't stay until the controller had made 2-3 trips to the high limit...I said "definitely wet wood!"...and then I went over and proved it...all her wood tested 25-35% MC tested internallly! (she had made the mistake of testing MC on the outside of the split, not a "re-split")...it tested 10% on the outside so she thought she was good to go.


I know that my firewood is not fully seasoned, it is 1 year seasoned ash but has not been covered up well, and was stacked under a row under large pine trees so it was always shaded. I just moved into the house and it is what the previous owner left behind. I have a few years worth of ash trees to drop, so that'll be the majority of my firewood for years to come, although I hope to get the ash trees cleared by the end of summer.

I adjust my low alarm setpoint based on what I think the wood MC is - I don't have a meter but I know full well that it is not under 20%. With this wood that I described above, if I turned my low alarm below 210°F, I would at times have black condensate drip out of the flue pipe onto the top of the blower box. So I set my low alarm temp to 250°F, just trying to keep enough heat in the chimney to prevent condensation. I intentionally run it hotter, because as you know Brenn, I have an over-sized masonry chimney without a liner - for at least this winter. I'd like to burn some well seasoned dry ash first before I worry about the chimney liner. Then again, with dry wood, I'm still not 100% clear what additional impact or advantage the 6" SS liner would make...? Not doubting that there isn't a difference, I still just don't comprehend what improvement it would make.

What I don't understand Brenn, is how your sister's stove would hit the high limit 2-3 times in a burn cycle, unless she had a timer or thermostat keeping the damper open? I don't have a thermostat tied in, only a timer and the Omega controller. When I load, I set the timer, and depending on how long the timer is set for, and how the load takes off, it may or may not hit the high alarm. Otherwise, the damper closes and doesn't reopen til my low alarm temp (250°F right now), and then closes again when it gets to 350-400°F (250°F plus whatever I have my alarm hysteresis set at, I think 100 or 150°F). So I just don't understand how anyone would be hitting the high limit multiple times - unless she has a thermostat or is intentionally opening the damper mid burn, she would never get past the alarm hysteresis threshold??



zmcnutt said:


> Yes my secondaries seem to burn fine as long as the fire takes off. I'm still adjusting my settings to see what burns best. My temp was just never reaching the high limit so my damper was staying open until the thermostat was satisfied. I'm considering on lowering my low limit now or completely turning it off to get longer burn time. My wood may not be fully seasoned I have not checked moisture content yet. This place has definitely helped a lot running this stove


Granted it is entirely at your discretion, but if you know the wood is not dry enough, than I wouldn't lower your low alarm or remove it, unless you are going to be very proactive in cleaning/checking your setup very frequently. Some of my friends' stoves are run "shut down" all the time and they have severe creosote issues, needing cleaned once a month or more - and as I mentioned above, I see some condensation issues with wet wood and cool flue temps. That's just one reason I love the temp controller opening the stove up to maintain better flue temps. Somehow I manage 10 hours cycles with a good bed of coals left, although I don't allow the coals to burn up before reloading, only because these stoves don't seem to get much heat from a bed of coals.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> unless she had a timer or thermostat keeping the damper open?


Yes, a timer and a tstat both.
So it would hit HL, coast back down past the hysteresis setting, back up to HL...so on and so forth...until the wood caught and the fire would maintain normal operating temps.


----------



## TDD11

Ok I see. For a minute it sounded to me like her temp controller was opening the damper back up at the alarm hysteresis from the HL alarm, and cycling between the HL of 425 and 425-AH. Whereas mine cycles between LA and LA+AH. But its because of her thermostat most likely.  Just learning. Bear with me. Haha


----------



## zmcnutt

brenndatomu said:


> Like today, it has been warmer out today and I did a light load (stacked criss crossed) at 6:20 AM, the house was 72* when I loaded and the tstat is set at 72*. It is now 9:30 PM and the house is still 73* from that AM load. If Tundra is big enough to meet your heat load with the damper closed most of the time, then you will probably love this furnace...if your heat load is high and the damper is open a lot, your probably gonna be disappointed...not that this is entirely unique to Tundras...most any furnace works best when properly sized for the job.



What is the square footage you are heating?


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> What is the square footage you are heating?


Well, the main floor is 1200-ish, then the basement is the same size (very partially finished) and it stays 68-70* just from 2 registers and the radiant heat off the Tundra. So I dunno...I guess you call that 2400...but the tstat is only concerned with 1200


----------



## zmcnutt

brenndatomu said:


> Well, the main floor is 1200-ish, then the basement is the same size (very partially finished) and it stays 68-70* just from 2 registers and the radiant heat off the Tundra. So I dunno...I guess you call that 2400...but the tstat is only concerned with 1200


 
Alright I was just curious with your burn times. I can't seem to get much over 6 hours. I have been trying your stacking technique though. I think my issue is just wood quality . Hopefully next year burning will be a little better.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

brenndatomu said:


> That is why I went over to my sisters place last nigh, to check the wood MC...she complained of creosote, I said wet wood, she said no. Then she said the secondary burn wouldn't stay until the controller had made 2-3 trips to the high limit...I said "definitely wet wood!"...and then I went over and proved it...all her wood tested 25-35% MC tested internallly! (she had made the mistake of testing MC on the outside of the split, not a "re-split")...it tested 10% on the outside so she thought she was good to go.



Sooo, like a good brother you brought her a truck and trailer of nice dry wood?


----------



## brenndatomu

STIHLY DAN said:


> Sooo, like a good brother you brought her a truck and trailer of nice dry wood?


 I didn't take the truck over...I did throw some of my wood in the trunk though...and after bragging up my dry wood, the first piece I checked tested 25%  (stinkin Oak!) Figures that I would grab one of the few pieces of branch wood that was thrown on this years stacks from a tree that was standing dead, and I _thought_ was "really dry!"...how many times do I have to learn this lesson, _everything_ spends at least 3 years CSS!


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## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> Alright I was just curious with your burn times. I can't seem to get much over 6 hours


6 hours...that's from lighting to what? The end of the active flame? To no hot coals left?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I'm still not 100% clear what additional impact or advantage the 6" SS liner would make.


Well, if your stove is working good for you, and you aren't getting creosote in the chimney...then sounds like you will get away without a liner. For me, when I first put my first wood furnace in, I lined the chimney right off the bat, for one, because it was too big (12" x 12") and second, I wanted the additional insurance of having any potential chimney fires contained in an insulated stainless steel liner, not the masonry attached to my house...just helps me sleep a lil better at night...


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## zmcnutt

brenndatomu said:


> 6 hours...that's from lighting to what? The end of the active flame? To no hot coals left?



I'm just getting about 6 hours of heat from the furnace. That is about as long as the blower will run. Then I will have coal bed for a few more hours.


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> I'm just getting about 6 hours of heat from the furnace. That is about as long as the blower will run. Then I will have coal bed for a few more hours.


Ahh, I see. That's exactly why I wanted to do the variable speed blower mod...I hated that on/off crap at the end (actually, for me it was on/off after the first couple hours) The controller has a sensor in/on the supply duct so it will speed the blower up and down to match what heat is available from the furnace. It eventually gets to an on/off stage too (obviously) but the blower runs at a very low speed for quite a while at the end. You'd be surprised the heat that can be had from some pretty low CFMs. Just ask @JRHAWK9 , he recently found out what a sweet setup a variable speed blower is on a wood furnace...


----------



## zmcnutt

brenndatomu said:


> Ahh, I see. That's exactly why I wanted to do the variable speed blower mod...I hated that on/off crap at the end (actually, for me it was on/off after the first couple hours) The controller has a sensor in/on the supply duct so it will speed the blower up and down to match what heat is available from the furnace. It eventually gets to an on/off stage too (obviously) but the blower runs at a very low speed for quite a while at the end. You'd be surprised the heat that can be had from some pretty low CFMs. Just ask @JRHAWK9 , he recently found out what a sweet setup a variable speed blower is on a wood furnace...


I have considered the variable blower mod. However I think if I tinker with the furnace anymore this winter the wife might kill me lol. Maybe save it for a summer time project. I hate wasting all of that heat on a fresh load since I have my blower set on low speed settings. It would be nice to have a higher speed for reloads when temps in the stove climb high and quickly.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> You'd be surprised the heat that can be had from some pretty low CFMs. Just ask @JRHAWK9 , he recently found out what a sweet setup a variable speed blower is on a wood furnace...



yep, I have a hybrid system of sorts using my stock snap switch to control the on/off of the blower circuit, but using the controller to control blower speeds based on plenum temps.  Overall my blower speeds are LOWER than they were before but the house stays consistently warmer, especially towards the end of the burn cycle.


----------



## brenndatomu

zmcnutt said:


> I have considered the variable blower mod. However I think if I tinker with the furnace anymore this winter the wife might kill me


...understood!


zmcnutt said:


> I hate wasting all of that heat on a fresh load since I have my blower set on low speed settings. It would be nice to have a higher speed for reloads when temps in the stove climb high and quickly.


That's the other advantage, you can wire the controller into a higher speed than you could otherwise use...then when things are rockin n rollin at the beginning of a load you can push more heat into the house, but still not have to deal with the cycling on/off that would normally come with running a "too high" blower speed.


----------



## 3fordasho

original Tundra's down to $622 after 11% rebate at Menards..  If you can find a close out display unit.


----------



## yzman

Hello all,,,,,

I just wanted to say hey and thank you all for all the work you have done so far. I recently purchased a tundra at menards serial #845 and have not installed anything as of yet. It did not come with any sort of firebrick for the front. I will be installing over the summer for next years heating season.
I will be heating 1800 sqft of ranch. I have been heating with a wood burning stove for 6 years now, with help from electric heat and am really looking forward to trying to make this thing run good. I have been reading for weeks and you guys are awesome
I really dont have any questions YET,,but I am sure I will. I just wanted to get registered and say thank YOu in advance as I will be taking on this challenge in the very near future. Any advice you may want to share from the get go would be appreciated. As I have read much but it is alot to try and get through and find every important thing I need. Thanks Guys,,,wish me luck,,,


----------



## brenndatomu

Welcome to Camp Tundra @yzman! Are you a fan of Yamaha dirt bikes by any chance? Or maybe Yazoo mowers?! 
Anyways, sounds like you probably got a great deal on that Tundra...get in touch with SBI for the firebrick and other "recall/updates" available for it. It should do a nice job of heating your 1800 ft for you if you feed it dry wood...which I assume you would have if you use a stove for 6 years already...if not, get choppin!  (PS, Tundra likes smaller splits)


----------



## jb6l6gc

Just emailed sbi back about my damper been waiting almost a month. Lol they forgot to ship it so apparently I should see it this week


----------



## jb6l6gc

Just a quick kinda weird question. Was cleaning out my heat exchanger.  From what I can see stove pipe isn't looking too bad.  Just wondering if any of us tundra guys has thought about using the pellet guys leaf blower trick.  From what I can see it looks pretty easy to run leaf blower in center exhaust tube and bunch up some rags or something around it to make a seal. Then turn her with an extension cord from outside so I can watch the ensuing mess.  Maybe a good option for a quick mid season cleanup?  Any thoughts?


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> Just wondering if any of us tundra guys has thought about using the pellet guys leaf blower trick.


What would this do for you? I'm familiar with the procedure...just not sure how it applys to a wood burner


----------



## jb6l6gc

brenndatomu said:


> What would this do for you? I'm familiar with the procedure...just not sure how it applys to a wood burner


Blow any light ash out of my stove pipe and liner!


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## jb6l6gc

At least that's the thought!


----------



## 3fordasho

jb6l6gc said:


> Just a quick kinda weird question. Was cleaning out my heat exchanger.  From what I can see stove pipe isn't looking too bad.  Just wondering if any of us tundra guys has thought about using the pellet guys leaf blower trick.  From what I can see it looks pretty easy to run leaf blower in center exhaust tube and bunch up some rags or something around it to make a seal. Then turn her with an extension cord from outside so I can watch the ensuing mess.  Maybe a good option for a quick mid season cleanup?  Any thoughts?




I'll occasionally get a pretty good reverse draft (basement install, cold flue) and have thought one of those weed burner propane torch heads shot up the center exhaust would heat up the flue pretty quick  ;-)


----------



## jb6l6gc

3fordasho said:


> I'll occasionally get a pretty good reverse draft (basement install, cold flue) and have thought one of those weed burner propane torch heads shot up the center exhaust would heat up the flue pretty quick  ;-)


I have the same problem some times but I'm talking about doing it to possible clean out some buildup in my stove pipe and liner.  I could see how that may help reverse the draft if needed!


----------



## Lcback

3fordasho said:


> I'll occasionally get a pretty good reverse draft (basement install, cold flue) and have thought one of those weed burner propane torch heads shot up the center exhaust would heat up the flue pretty quick  ;-)



I don't have a tundra. But I do have that reverse draft problem. Torch works but it takes longer to get it heated then you think. Best thing for me so far has been a hair dryer left sitting at the air obstacle for 10 minutes. Next I'm going to buy a harbor freight hot air gun. Got a coupon for one for 8$. I have a buddy who lights his charcoal grill with one. Lots of heat no tanks to run low or fumes /smoke. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## brenndatomu

jb6l6gc said:


> Blow any light ash out of my stove pipe and liner!


At least in my setup, I've never seen anything light and/or loose enough to be able to blow it out without brushing first. The other thing is that the pellet stoves use a 3 or 4" vent pipe...so a leaf blower would make some pretty high velocity through there...it would be a lot lower in a 6" pipe...


3fordasho said:


> I'll occasionally get a pretty good reverse draft (basement install, cold flue) and have thought one of those weed burner propane torch heads shot up the center exhaust would heat up the flue pretty quick  ;-)


You: "Hello, 911? Yeah, I have a chimney fire"
(After the fire is out) Firechief: "What happened son? 
You: "Well, I was warmin muh chimeny up and..." 
  
Actually, my sister deals with poor (no) draft almost every time she has to do a cold start up...I told her to open the cleanout door and blow a hair dryer in the center tube...works like a charm!


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> I quit using the low alarm, I found the tstat does the same thing for me...seems like the load "lasts longer" that way too...I could see using the low alarm to burn down excessive coals _build up_ though (like during a major cold spell)


bingo. I only been using high limit on temp controller around 400-450 HYS set around 80. Yup Thermostat and low draft setting..(HYS) both will open stove for coal burn off so what good would a 2nd alarm setting on temp controller be? I still think the firebox is too tall. Im getting more heat in the house with small splits stacked tall than anything else. House winds up warmer at end of burn. Its all about getting the max heat from the surge and letting temps drop.. the higher I drive the temp in the house during the day the warmer it is when I get home. The more I try to conserve would/ turtle wins the race/ or use re burn cycle the colder the house is at the end of the day with the same amount of wood gone. The re burn or damper closed feature is neat, helpful during first few hours of a full load for sure but am finding the more I can burn with the damper open (at safe temps mind you) the warmer the house is at the end of the day. Believe it or not the most efficient for my setup is leaving the thermostat at 70. 68 is too low and 72 is too high. When leaving T stat at 70 along with temp controller I am getting the high heat as its needed but not over doing it and at the same time drawing enough high heat before the fire burns down to keep house temps up.


----------



## Digger79

Funny someone should mention a chimney fire. I now have successfully caused and stopped a chimney fire. . Let me explain. I'll start by saying this.. The new Tundra 1 updated model is tough... really tough. My flu hit 1200 plus the other night. How? Well I cracked the door, stepped inside and planned on watching the tv for 5-10 minutes then returning to the stove to close the door as I have done a hundred times.. Well I now have a new rule... I don't leave the stove with out setting an alarm on my phone an keeping it by me or I stay until its time to close the door. I passed out from exhaustion with the TV remote in my hand. Never even turned the TV on. Woke up in a panic 1hr and 15 mins after leaving furnace door cracked with a full load in it. Ran out to the garage in a panic to find the chimney roaring and throwing flames and sparks out the top. Naturally I freaked out. shut the door and immediately popped the baro full open as daylight came out of the flu when I opened the damper. Spun the dial burning my fingers so baro would stay full open and temps plummeted immediately from 1150-1200 down to 950, then 800 ish then down to 600's in about 20 secs or less. The chimney fire went out in about 45 secs. Three things.. luckily the baro damper WAS installed even though its rarely needed.. generally only contains draft in single digits to negative digits however in this case I firmly believe it saved my stove and my garage. 2nd luckily the Tundra burns so clean there was hardly any creosote to really catch fire and most the "chimney fire" was real just the turbo cyclone racing up the flu from to hot of a fire. I don't think the flu was really on fire it self. Thank god. I was seconds from calling the fire department if I did not get it under control in a minute or 2. 3rd thing to mention is I full inspected everything after this event and nothing was damaged.. no cracks, warping.. nothing. now lets consider the time... it takes 45 minutes for a full load to get up to 800 deg with the door cracked for me after a full day burn. coals are pretty low so takes 10-15 minutes just to light up sometimes with out adding air(bellows). So.. to shorten up this point.. I don't think the flu over drafted until after about 30-45 minutes at least more likely almost an hour.. so I am thinking the temps above 900 up to 1200 only occurred for maybe 10-15 minutes. Luckily. On top of that the baro likely kept the flu from going up near 1500 or higher temps. Lesson on that point is INSTALL THE BARO! Even if you don't need it it is prob the best backup last chance safety measure you can have in the system and I firmly believe it saved my butt on this one. I do now have a rule in place for my self so this never happens again. And again .. the updated Tundra is damn tough. I do have a little more protection than SBI's upgrades.. I also lined the loading door up the sides with firebrick, stuffed rock wool in the cracks at the top corners of the fire door inside above fire brick behind heat shield, also have rock wool in the corners above deflector where fresh air comes in from main damper, as well firebrick cut and wrapped around the bottom corners of the heat exchanger door inside.. With all this plus SBI's modifications my stove survived flu temps around 1200 deg for at least 15 mins maybe more. And yes I am an idiot. No excuse for this negligence on my part and I can assure you this was scary enough I will never let anything like that happen again. BTW Steely Dan.. I removed the copper tube and stuck the rubber manometer hose directly on the fitting.. it melted and fell off. lol. I cut it back and tried this again under normal operating temps and it still melted and fell off. I am measuring possible too close to the output so I went back to the copper extension tube to engineer down the temp on the rubber hose. I am measuring draft about 12" away from the output on the level run of the single wall stove pipe. Wondering if possibly my draft readings are off cause I am not in the vertical chimney? I would imagine it wouldn't be much different. My drafting may be higher than I think based on where I am measuring it. I do not want to drill a hole in my 600$ chimney. lol.


----------



## Digger79

TDD11 said:


> Curious, but if you guys drop your high temp limit, do you actually get a good secondary burn? Where are your thermocouples - how far from the stove?
> 
> If my damper closes on a fresh load at 400-500°F, than it seems too cool for secondary burn to occur. I do get 550-615°F temps on a fresh load if the timer is set long enough. Then my high alarm shuts damper, and the stove will not see that temps above 375-400°F again for the rest of the burn. I do wonder if while the fire is building up to the 500°F+ range, that I am wasting a lot of heat up the chimney.
> 
> I never realized til I joined this forum how much can go into wood heat.


It may be worthwhile to mention I believe secondary burns are occurring even when you don't see flames coming out of the 2ndary tubes.. I could be wrong here but it seems we only really see flames coming out of the burner tubes while wood is off gasing and once the wood is coked the smoke and suit is still being burned we just no longer see the flames coming out of the burner tubes.. I think.. my point here.. is that so long as clear vapor is coming out of the chimney we are re burning regardless of blue flames coming out of the burner tubes. Not sure I'm totally correct about this.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Ahh, I see. That's exactly why I wanted to do the variable speed blower mod...I hated that on/off crap at the end (actually, for me it was on/off after the first couple hours) The controller has a sensor in/on the supply duct so it will speed the blower up and down to match what heat is available from the furnace. It eventually gets to an on/off stage too (obviously) but the blower runs at a very low speed for quite a while at the end. You'd be surprised the heat that can be had from some pretty low CFMs. Just ask @JRHAWK9 , he recently found out what a sweet setup a variable speed blower is on a wood furnace...


currently with factory setup in updated Tundra 1 model my fan would come on around 250-300 deg flu temps and run for around 8hrs before cycling off and on. On off cycling was pretty minimal they must have widened the range on the snap disc along with lowering the firing temp. I used some metal shimming under the snap switch to raise the turn on temp and now get around the same 8 hrs or so but less cycling off and on at the end of burns. It seems to be running on full high when ever plenum is hot enough is pushing the max amount of heat into my house. I think my issue is long run from separate garage to house so low-med fan setting have too low CFM's and do not rob the heat from the plenum as well as when on the high setting. My set up is diff than most but full high on the fan is def best for me. I've played with speed settings and get more heat this way with my setup. Otherwise heat escapes into the garage which is often 80 deg! lol. waisted heat for me. Need to push every BTU to the house as much as I can.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> Funny someone should mention a chimney fire. I now have successfully caused and stopped a chimney fire. . Let me explain. I'll start by saying this.. The new Tundra 1 updated model is tough... really tough. My flu hit 1200 plus the other night. How? Well I cracked the door, stepped inside and planned on watching the tv for 5-10 minutes then returning to the stove to close the door as I have done a hundred times.. Well I now have a new rule... I don't leave the stove with out setting an alarm on my phone an keeping it by me or I stay until its time to close the door. I passed out from exhaustion with the TV remote in my hand. Never even turned the TV on. Woke up in a panic 1hr and 15 mins after leaving furnace door cracked with a full load in it. Ran out to the garage in a panic to find the chimney roaring and throwing flames and sparks out the top. Naturally I freaked out. shut the door and immediately popped the baro full open as daylight came out of the flu when I opened the damper. Spun the dial burning my fingers so baro would stay full open and temps plummeted immediately from 1150-1200 down to 950, then 800 ish then down to 600's in about 20 secs or less. The chimney fire went out in about 45 secs. Three things.. luckily the baro damper WAS installed even though its rarely needed.. generally only contains draft in single digits to negative digits however in this case I firmly believe it saved my stove and my garage. 2nd luckily the Tundra burns so clean there was hardly any creosote to really catch fire and most the "chimney fire" was real just the turbo cyclone racing up the flu from to hot of a fire. I don't think the flu was really on fire it self. Thank god. I was seconds from calling the fire department if I did not get it under control in a minute or 2. 3rd thing to mention is I full inspected everything after this event and nothing was damaged.. no cracks, warping.. nothing. now lets consider the time... it takes 45 minutes for a full load to get up to 800 deg with the door cracked for me after a full day burn. coals are pretty low so takes 10-15 minutes just to light up sometimes with out adding air(bellows). So.. to shorten up this point.. I don't think the flu over drafted until after about 30-45 minutes at least more likely almost an hour.. so I am thinking the temps above 900 up to 1200 only occurred for maybe 10-15 minutes. Luckily. On top of that the baro likely kept the flu from going up near 1500 or higher temps. Lesson on that point is INSTALL THE BARO! Even if you don't need it it is prob the best backup last chance safety measure you can have in the system and I firmly believe it saved my butt on this one. I do now have a rule in place for my self so this never happens again. And again .. the updated Tundra is damn tough. I do have a little more protection than SBI's upgrades.. I also lined the loading door up the sides with firebrick, stuffed rock wool in the cracks at the top corners of the fire door inside above fire brick behind heat shield, also have rock wool in the corners above deflector where fresh air comes in from main damper, as well firebrick cut and wrapped around the bottom corners of the heat exchanger door inside.. With all this plus SBI's modifications my stove survived flu temps around 1200 deg for at least 15 mins maybe more. And yes I am an idiot. No excuse for this negligence on my part and I can assure you this was scary enough I will never let anything like that happen again. BTW Steely Dan.. I removed the copper tube and stuck the rubber manometer hose directly on the fitting.. it melted and fell off. lol. I cut it back and tried this again under normal operating temps and it still melted and fell off. I am measuring possible too close to the output so I went back to the copper extension tube to engineer down the temp on the rubber hose. I am measuring draft about 12" away from the output on the level run of the single wall stove pipe. Wondering if possibly my draft readings are off cause I am not in the vertical chimney? I would imagine it wouldn't be much different. My drafting may be higher than I think based on where I am measuring it. I do not want to drill a hole in my 600$ chimney. lol.


Geez Louise Digger, you hard on equipment man!   Good to hear you still have a house and garage to heat, and that there was no real (apparent) damage done. 
I never walk away from an open stove door, ever! I'd rather the fire go out than walk away and leave the door open. If my kid is screaming bloody murder upstairs, close the door and go! Actually, I rarely ever leave one cracked open at all. The Tundra with the boost air at the bottom doesn't need it IMO...I rake the coals to that area, load the firebox, throw some small stuff (splitter trash) on the coals and close the door. If the fire doesn't light _immediately_, I have started lighting it rather than letting it smoke...my new trick is to throw an unlit match on the coals and close the door. The heat from the coals light the match very quickly and once there is flame things generally take off quickly...put 20-30 minutes on the control timer (you have one of those Digger, no?) reload done. No need to fret over an open stove door.
The other thing I have as a safeguard is a remote (wireless) temp monitor. Its a Maverick ET 732 dual probe BBQ monitor. I monitor flue and duct temps. It has high and low alarms that can be set, if my flue temp goes over 600*, the high alarm will go off. If the duct temps go over 175*, the other high alarm will go off. I don't use the low alarms. When I'm in the house I try to have the monitor nearby...makes it easy to see what a "normal" burn cycle looks like too.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Geez Louise Digger, you hard on equipment man!   Good to hear you still have a house and garage to heat, and that there was no real (apparent) damage done.
> I never walk away from an open stove door, ever! I'd rather the fire go out than walk away and leave the door open. If my kid is screaming bloody murder upstairs, close the door and go! Actually, I rarely ever leave one cracked open at all. The Tundra with the boost air at the bottom doesn't need it IMO...I rake the coals to that area, load the firebox, throw some small stuff (splitter trash) on the coals and close the door. If the fire doesn't light _immediately_, I have started lighting it rather than letting it smoke...my new trick is to throw an unlit match on the coals and close the door. The heat from the coals light the match very quickly and once there is flame things generally take off quickly...put 20-30 minutes on the control timer (you have one of those Digger, no?) reload done. No need to fret over an open stove door.
> The other thing I have as a safeguard is a remote (wireless) temp monitor. Its a Maverick ET 732 dual probe BBQ monitor. I monitor flue and duct temps. It has high and low alarms that can be set, if my flue temp goes over 600*, the high alarm will go off. If the duct temps go over 175*, the other high alarm will go off. I don't use the low alarms. When I'm in the house I try to have the monitor nearby...makes it easy to see what a "normal" burn cycle looks like too.


What do you mean hard on equipment?  haha.. I wanted to make sure the New Tundra wasn't going to crack. They said it wouldn't crack and if it did they'd replaced it again. As well my flu is clean as a whistle now . ok all joking aside.. I leave the door cracked when firing usually till flu hits around 400-500 then close it up. This keeps glass very clean and fire, draft all is hot and ready to go up to temp. Yes I can shut the door and use the timer and a few times have had to however I prefer to leave door cracked until I reach appropriate burn. As mentioned I have a rule I will live by now. I either stay in the garage till I shut it or set a timer on my phone if I walk out. I have been successful in simply going back about 10 mins later in the past with no problems. Normally I'm just doing a few quick things knowing I'm headed back in 5-10 mins. My human side kicked in an error took place. I checked the HE tubes and box over well, flu pipe.. as mentioned I don't think I was at these temps very long and the plenum somehow wasn't all that damn hot most the heat was in the flu I guess. Either way it is safe to leave door cracked upon firing so long as its not forgotten or watched. Makes for a much faster cleaner startup but obviously is going to require better discipline on my part. I was so exhausted I literally closed my eyes for a few seconds and bam it happened. I had plans to set and over fire alarm that would message my phone but this requires paying a service fee so I have yet to do it. Had I had it in place it would have woken me. I think the smell of the ducts getting warm woke me. I've checked everything thoroughly and been operating stove with no signs of issue for about a week now since. again pretty sure I got lucky and it was only 10 -15 minutes at these temps if that long over 850-900 anyhow. Scary, lesson learned and I hope others can at least realize the potential dangers of wood stoves with me sharing this experience. Embarrassing to share this but I don't shame easily. We are all human I don't care what anyone says they've all made stupid mistakes and this is exactly what that was. Stove is pretty damn tough though I'll say that. chit was def very very hot!. nothing changed color anywhere though.. the metals I mean.


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Geez Louise Digger, you hard on equipment man!   Good to hear you still have a house and garage to heat, and that there was no real (apparent) damage done.
> I never walk away from an open stove door, ever! I'd rather the fire go out than walk away and leave the door open. If my kid is screaming bloody murder upstairs, close the door and go! Actually, I rarely ever leave one cracked open at all. The Tundra with the boost air at the bottom doesn't need it IMO...I rake the coals to that area, load the firebox, throw some small stuff (splitter trash) on the coals and close the door. If the fire doesn't light _immediately_, I have started lighting it rather than letting it smoke...my new trick is to throw an unlit match on the coals and close the door. The heat from the coals light the match very quickly and once there is flame things generally take off quickly...put 20-30 minutes on the control timer (you have one of those Digger, no?) reload done. No need to fret over an open stove door.
> The other thing I have as a safeguard is a remote (wireless) temp monitor. Its a Maverick ET 732 dual probe BBQ monitor. I monitor flue and duct temps. It has high and low alarms that can be set, if my flue temp goes over 600*, the high alarm will go off. If the duct temps go over 175*, the other high alarm will go off. I don't use the low alarms. When I'm in the house I try to have the monitor nearby...makes it easy to see what a "normal" burn cycle looks like too.


Also to mention again.. it was scary, all the horror stories I've heard of chimney fires flashed before my eyes.. but I'm pretty sure there was no actual chimney fire so to say. I don't believe the creosote had caught fire and was burning so much as there was just a cyclone running up the chimney cause the minute I shut the door and opened the baro full tilt everything died off in about 30 secs or so. Thank God I burn hot clean fires cause had that been a standard gunked up chimney I don't think the results would have been the same as far as stopping the overdraft. I think its safe to say this was technically just a bad overdraft situation and the flu hadn't actually caught on fire. When it happened though I had visions of a fire I could not stop. Pretty sure that wasn't totally the case.


----------



## DoubleB

Yea, Digger, I'm glad everything seems ok.  I dare say that everyone on here has probably learned a hard or scary lesson about burning at some point.  Just as long as we learn from it, as you are.  @brenndatomu said everything that I had in mind.  I also find I don't need to ever leave without closing the door.  Even my phone timer doesn't put me at complete peace, I'd probably set it down somewhere, or it would go off when I was in the middle of something and I'd tell myself "don't forget to go down and close the door" and then I would forget.

Someone on here said their trick to putting out a chimney fire is to throw a wet towel in the firebox.  Cools down the fire, and also displaces oxygen out of the chimney.  I've never had to try it myself, so I can't vouch.


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## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> I still think the firebox is too tall


Interesting you say that. I noticed that the Heatpro/Max Caddy fire box, even though 1.3 CF larger is actually 1/4" shorter than Tundra


Digger79 said:


> Wondering if possibly my draft readings are off cause I am not in the vertical chimney? I would imagine it wouldn't be much different. My drafting may be higher than I think based on where I am measuring it. I do not want to drill a hole in my 600$ chimney.


Taking the reading in the stove pipe is fine. It needs to be taken between the baro and the furnace...not too close to an elbow or tee (in a straight section of pipe)


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## brenndatomu

And another thing, as far as the firebox on Tundra being "too tall", that is another reason I leave the ashes build up when the weather is mild. Heck, I probably have 4-5" in there now. I just keep the ash level knocked down toward the front so I have a place to put the coals when re-loading...and gotta keep the boost air hole clear too...


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## trx250r87

brenndatomu said:


> And another thing, as far as the firebox on Tundra being "too tall", that is another reason I leave the ashes build up when the weather is mild. Heck, I probably have 4-5" in there now. I just keep the level down toward the front so I have a place to put the coals when re-loading...and gotta keep the boost air hole clear too...


I agree 100%. I have not emptied my ashes yet this year, and I don't use the ash pan ever. Burning mostly oak might have something to do with the lack of ashes though. I just make sure the front air hole is clear. 
Eric


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## DoubleB

trx250r87 said:


> I have not emptied my ashes yet this year, and I don't use the ash pan ever. Burning mostly oak might have something to do with the lack of ashes though.



Wow, good for you.  Every 7-10 days I have a pail of 90% ashes with a few accidental coals thrown in.  I'm sure that's at least half air because I don't bust the ash structure down, but I'm amazed you don't have more ashes, or else I'm curious if you think they get blown up your stack (not sure how, but hey).


----------



## Darbycrash

Hey Guys. Drolet is running well. I was wondering if you guys could post some pictures of your flue, (looking down the front openjing of the heat exchanger). Mine gets quite a bit of buildup on it, the chimney does not look bad however. Just a lot of dry buildup on the flue pipe exiting the furnace. I can actually knock a lot of it off by slapping the chimney flue once and awhile. I am burning wood that isn't ideal since I was not prepared really to heat with wood this winter, however it is white ash that has been dead standing for over 3 years. Most of the splits are 18-25% moisture content, (not all). This normal? Do you guys get a decent amount of build up? I am not talking about sticky tar that is changing the inside diameter of the flue to 4 inches or anything, just a coating with some jagged edges sticking out.


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## DoubleB

Darbycrash said:


> I was wondering if you guys could post some pictures of your flue, (looking down the front openjing of the heat exchanger).



I don't have pictures, but I experience something similar to what you are describing.  Less so in the heat exchanger because I try to keep that cleaned out, but more so in the chimney connector out the back end of the Tundra, because I don't clean that as often since I have to take that apart (I have single-wall black stove pipe for that).  I'm still running through some firewood that isn't as bone-dry as I'd like.  Also, once the fire takes off, I close the door so I can come upstairs but it's probably kind of smokey for a few minutes until it's roaring.  I don't know if I produce more smoke than I should over time, but I'm dealing with it just fine.


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## brenndatomu

I try to clean my HE tubes every week. I typically have a little dry fluffy buildup. It is so light (weight) that most of it seems to get sucked up the flue as I am cleaning. I've not had any wet looking stuff in a really long time, even the black "corn flakes" type stuff hasn't appeared this winter, which kinda surprises me because I know that I have had some pieces of wood that weren't optimal dry. 
I'll try to get pics the next time I open 'er up.


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## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> And another thing, as far as the firebox on Tundra being "too tall", that is another reason I leave the ashes build up when the weather is mild. Heck, I probably have 4-5" in there now. I just keep the ash level knocked down toward the front so I have a place to put the coals when re-loading...and gotta keep the boost air hole clear too...


I began doing the same thing to raise the floor or emulate a grate somewhat. I need to try the grate. I bet I like it cause I am finding myself trying to build smaller fires closer to the top.


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## Digger79

DoubleB said:


> Yea, Digger, I'm glad everything seems ok.  I dare say that everyone on here has probably learned a hard or scary lesson about burning at some point.  Just as long as we learn from it, as you are.  @brenndatomu said everything that I had in mind.  I also find I don't need to ever leave without closing the door.  Even my phone timer doesn't put me at complete peace, I'd probably set it down somewhere, or it would go off when I was in the middle of something and I'd tell myself "don't forget to go down and close the door" and then I would forget.
> 
> Someone on here said their trick to putting out a chimney fire is to throw a wet towel in the firebox.  Cools down the fire, and also displaces oxygen out of the chimney.  I've never had to try it myself, so I can't vouch.


I do firmly believe I was merely minutes from an actual chimney fire.. maybe not possible as there is basically no suit to burn inside the flu it just burns so damn clean.. however def feel I was minutes from catastrophic failure of either single wall pipe or plenum cracks... Been weeks now and everything seems normal. Likely it was only in the 900-1200 deg range for a matter of minutes before I caught it. Never again. Rules in place and lately I just been shutting the door despite the smokey startup from low coal.. Id rather clean up a little smoke on the glass or clean the flu more than once every year than burn the damn garage down.


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## brenndatomu

Noticed my baffle is cracked last night, the whole way, front to rear...no idea how that happened, I didn't hit it, or if i did, it wasn't very hard at all...I believe it is still the original one. 
I place my wood in its spot, I do not throw it in.
I guess I have heard that the C-cast baffles the TII and the Caddy line uses is much more durable than the vermiculite baffle that the T1 has.
I think I will just slide a thin piece of stainless between the secondary tubes and the baffle for now...although it doesn't really seem to be affecting anything right now...probably because its cracked, but not really gapped open much.


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## brenndatomu

Darbycrash said:


> I was wondering if you guys could post some pictures of your flue, (looking down the front openjing of the heat exchanger


Here ya go...mine from last night


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## DoubleB

brenndatomu said:


> Here ya go...mine from last night



Still got that turb in there huh?  Good for you. Mine was great when everything was clean, but it was intricate enough that it quickly fouled, and was really difficult to clean, so I ditched it.


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## trx250r87

I cleaned my flue last night for the first time this season. I got less than a cup of soot, not bad for 30' of pipe.


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## jb6l6gc

Finally got my damper from sbi and changed it. No binding now Game on!


----------



## 3fordasho

Tundra close outs down to $499  plus 11% rebate at Menards.  I just bought one of the last ones in southern Minnesota.   Going to replace a 30NC in one of my outbuildings... or use it for spares for my other two...


----------



## jimlop

Hi first time posting so hope am in the correct place.
Am getting ready to install a Tundra bought last fall.
SBI sent the front brick upgrade as soon as I inquired about any upgrades.

Question #1  Does the front air boost hole (only 1/4") really seem to impact the fire? Seems mighty small compared to the draft coming in the (3/4" hole) of the the damper.

Question #2  Has anyone seen any impact from the rear boost hole about 6" up on the back wall. Again only 1/4" so seems mighty small.

Question #3  Was the stainsteel baffle screwed to the innner area above the loading door origional or an upgrade?

Thanks for all the info already on the site


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## brenndatomu

jimlop said:


> Does the front air boost hole (only 1/4") really seem to impact the fire?


Early on in the fire I'd say yes.


jimlop said:


> Has anyone seen any impact from the rear boost hole about 6" up on the back wall. Again only 1/4" so seems mighty small.


Never experimented with it but based on the front one, probably


jimlop said:


> Was the stainsteel baffle screwed to the innner area above the loading door origional or an upgrade?


Original.
Welcome to the club jim!


----------



## Builderml

Update # not sure any more. It's been awhile and wanted to keep y'all informed with my experience and how you may  or may not address your issues. So here goes.
At the end of last year some of you may recall I had the cracks welded on my tundra.
Here is the repaired picture.


This year i fired away and have been keeping an eye on things. I don't believe i over fired the unit this year (that i know of) i have been trying to limp the Tundra along to buy me as much time with it as possible.
With that said now take a look at what has happened to the weld now.




Nice crack right down the middle of the weld. So need less to say this thing wants to move with the hot cold cycles.I don't recommend welding the cracks that you may get. I suggest trying to just drilling out the end of the cracks to stop it and let it be. Others have done so with sucess.
Here is a photo of a new crack


	

		
			
		

		
	
  This is the left upper hand side of the door right under this weld last year
	

		
			
		

		
	




So while some may think welding is the answer think again you may just be creating a problem in another spot. I think Brenn is one who only drilled out the crack ends and has not seen things getting worse. 
You never really know until you try so learn from my experience and i hope it helps you in resloving your possible problem.
So this new crack above and the one that has cracked right down the middle of the weld i will drill out the ends and see how i make out with that.
Hope this helps someone.... Happy burning


----------



## brenndatomu

Builderml said:


> I think Brenn is one who only drilled out the crack ends and has not seen things getting worse.


Wellllll....funny you say that...I was just getting ready to do an update of my own. 
My crack has blown past the drilled hole this winter. 
I agree with your diagnosis...it just needs to move during hot/cold cycles. As long as I keep the firebox hot, or a least warm...there are no issues. But with this warmer weather we've had this winter, I've had opportunity to let 'er go cold plenty of times in the last 4-5 months, and I've noticed that every time I let it go cold, the crack grows a bit. 
My drilled hole held things in place for a while though...probably gonna drill another one, see if I can stop it again...I guess there is a chance that I didn't get to the very tip of the crack last time...maybe I should spray it with some crack detector dye this time. I was gonna go ahead and weld it...but now, screw it...let 'er move.
Anyways, thanks for the update @Builderml


----------



## jimlop

Builderml said:


> Update # not sure any more. It's been awhile and wanted to keep y'all informed with my experience and how you may  or may not address your issues. So here goes.
> At the end of last year some of you may recall I had the cracks welded on my tundra.
> Here is the repaired picture.
> View attachment 195911
> 
> This year i fired away and have been keeping an eye on things. I don't believe i over fired the unit this year (that i know of) i have been trying to limp the Tundra along to buy me as much time with it as possible.
> With that said now take a look at what has happened to the weld now.
> View attachment 195912
> View attachment 195913
> 
> 
> Nice crack right down the middle of the weld. So need less to say this thing wants to move with the hot cold cycles.I don't recommend welding the cracks that you may get. I suggest trying to just drilling out the end of the cracks to stop it and let it be. Others have done so with sucess.
> Here is a photo of a new crack
> View attachment 195914
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the left upper hand side of the door right under this weld last year
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 195915
> 
> 
> So while some may think welding is the answer think again you may just be creating a problem in another spot. I think Brenn is one who only drilled out the crack ends and has not seen things getting worse.
> You never really know until you try so learn from my experience and i hope it helps you in resloving your possible problem.
> So this new crack above and the one that has cracked right down the middle of the weld i will drill out the ends and see how i make out with that.
> Hope this helps someone.... Happy burning


----------



## jimlop

hope this doesn't come across wrong as I am not a expert welder, but around maintenance for some 40plus years.  If that horizontal crack was welded with that vertical welding there would not have been good penetration all along the entire crack. Also was the crack ground out some.  Please don't take this questioning wrong if I am way off track on any of this.
Jim


----------



## Builderml

jimlop said:


> hope this doesn't come across wrong as I am not a expert welder, but around maintenance for some 40plus years.  If that horizontal crack was welded with that vertical welding there would not have been good penetration all along the entire crack. Also was the crack ground out some.  Please don't take this questioning wrong if I am way off track on any of this.
> Jim


Welcome, 
He did grind out the crack and by doing so you thin down the material. He did run parallel with the crack and then stitched the crack perpendicular to add material and strengthen the face. Not taken the wrong way.


----------



## DoubleB

Builderml said:


> Nice crack right down the middle of the weld.





brenndatomu said:


> My crack has blown past the drilled hole this winter.



Well I guess I'm glad I haven't gotten around yet to drilling a root hole yet or welding anything (procrastinating 2 years now).  My biggest crack has grown a bit in 2 years but not too bad.  It still closes when hot and opens when cold iron.

Thanks for the updates guys.


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## trx250r87

I still have zero cracks, knock on wood!


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## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> I still have zero cracks, knock on wood!


You and @3fordasho  about the only ones left now...


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## DoubleB

Well now that we're doing updates, I'm getting a frustrating smell in the house sometimes.

I'm starting to wonder if I have a leak in my heat exchanger.

The first winter, on occasion I'd get a smell the same as the burning paint/oil during the first couple fires.  It was usually right after the damper closed.  It didn't smell like wood smoke, but paint/oil smoke, so I figured it was just a momentary hot spot due to closing the damper and the burn mode/zond shifting (or some theory about something that I didn't understand).

Last winter, it still happened a little bit, but not as much.  I wondered if the air blowing out of the jacket near the HX door was stirring things up/out of the HX gasket into the basement air, so I put a metal pipe on top of the HX to obstruct airflow and that might have helped a little.  

This winter, the first few fires the ductwork (not used last summer) smelled nasty, not super moldy, but more than just dusty.  I also would get a fire kind of smell in the house after the damper closed 20-30 minutes into the burn.  I putzed around and put a small shim under the damper so it would close 95%, and that seemed to help.  But by now I still get a fire smell maybe 1 or 2 burns per week.  It didn't used to smell like campfire, but it's starting to smell more that way.

With the recent warm spells, the furnace was cold for a few days, and the bad duct smell was back.  So now I have an occasional burning paint smell, and if the system hasn't been hot for a while then I have a dank air smell from the ducts and/or furnace.  I wonder if it's coming from whatever causes the paint smell.

I've never had one of the CO alarms make any mention of it, which are 3-5 years old.

I never get the smell when the damper is open.  

I popped the sides off the furnace a couple months ago and couldn't find any missing welds like @brenndatomu had.

Anyways, I'm open to any ideas.  I haven't thrown in the towel on this Tundra yet, but things like this make me more likely.  Especially because I'm going to start using the ductwork to ventilate a rec room in the summer, but not if that nasty duct smell arrives when the furnace goes cold.


----------



## Builderml

trx250r87 said:


> I still have zero cracks, knock on wood!


You want a cookie ! j/k


----------



## Builderml

DoubleB said:


> Well now that we're doing updates, I'm getting a frustrating smell in the house sometimes.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if I have a leak in my heat exchanger.
> 
> The first winter, on occasion I'd get a smell the same as the burning paint/oil during the first couple fires.  It was usually right after the damper closed.  It didn't smell like wood smoke, but paint/oil smoke, so I figured it was just a momentary hot spot due to closing the damper and the burn mode/zond shifting (or some theory about something that I didn't understand).
> 
> Last winter, it still happened a little bit, but not as much.  I wondered if the air blowing out of the jacket near the HX door was stirring things up/out of the HX gasket into the basement air, so I put a metal pipe on top of the HX to obstruct airflow and that might have helped a little.
> 
> This winter, the first few fires the ductwork (not used last summer) smelled nasty, not super moldy, but more than just dusty.  I also would get a fire kind of smell in the house after the damper closed 20-30 minutes into the burn.  I putzed around and put a small shim under the damper so it would close 95%, and that seemed to help.  But by now I still get a fire smell maybe 1 or 2 burns per week.  It didn't used to smell like campfire, but it's starting to smell more that way.
> 
> With the recent warm spells, the furnace was cold for a few days, and the bad duct smell was back.  So now I have an occasional burning paint smell, and if the system hasn't been hot for a while then I have a dank air smell from the ducts and/or furnace.  I wonder if it's coming from whatever causes the paint smell.
> 
> I've never had one of the CO alarms make any mention of it, which are 3-5 years old.
> 
> I never get the smell when the damper is open.
> 
> I popped the sides off the furnace a couple months ago and couldn't find any missing welds like @brenndatomu had.
> 
> Anyways, I'm open to any ideas.  I haven't thrown in the towel on this Tundra yet, but things like this make me more likely.  Especially because I'm going to start using the ductwork to ventilate a rec room in the summer, but not if that nasty duct smell arrives when the furnace goes cold.


You may want to check the area i had to repair on the HX here is a picture, The only time i get a slight smell is from a bone cold start .(Dusty smell)Aside from that nothing (Yet). 
Here is a pic of repair.


----------



## Builderml

Gonna give the Tundra a good once over at the end of the year and make my final selection from there. I was at Lowes the other day and looked at an Englander Furnace i think it was only $600. I know as far a tech goes its going backwards but if i don't have to worry about cracking might be a safe bet. Thats the way i am leaning for now things may change once i look the Tundra over good.
Time to go enjoy the Blizzard here today.


----------



## jimlop

coming from 45+ years of heating with a Vermont Casting Defiant am surprised that in all the reading on cracks I don't see any mention of slow heating on initial startup.  It may  be more critical with cast iron but do believe steel is susceptible to uneven heating especially formed and welded material. When SBI talks about over firing am surprised they don't caution to allow for gradual warming on initial startup.


----------



## sloeffle

Builderml said:


> Gonna give the Tundra a good once over at the end of the year and make my final selection from there. I was at Lowes the other day and looked at an Englander Furnace i think it was only $600. I know as far a tech goes its going backwards but if i don't have to worry about cracking might be a safe bet. Thats the way i am leaning for now things may change once i look the Tundra over good.
> Time to go enjoy the Blizzard here today.


Going on year number five with my Caddy and I have had zero issues with the furnace. A non-EPA approved Englander seems like a step backwards IMHO. I'll take paying more up front for a more efficient furnace vs having to cut more wood. It seems like every year I have less time to cut wood and more time to do things I really I don't want to.

Scott

P.S. Have fun in the snow.


----------



## Darbycrash

Anyone else have issues with large amounts of fly-ash in their flue? My Tee was just about clogged when I cleaned it out yesterday, with very fluffy fly ash. I noticed typical draft issues signs like, fires not getting hot as fast, smoke coming back into the house when loading, smoke dripping from flue pipe seams ect. ect.

Sure enough when I opened up the flue pipe to clean things out, it was completely clogged. The tee filled up past the stove output. This stuff is very fine and when vacuumed up it barely filles the shop vac container. Should I just add more tee/clean out capacity? The rest of the flue was not bad at all.

Been burning 5 year dead standing ash all year, right around 18-22% MC


----------



## DoubleB

Darbycrash said:


> Anyone else have issues with large amounts of fly-ash in their flue? My Tee was just about clogged when I cleaned it out yesterday, with very fluffy fly ash.



Single wall or double wall?  I have a single wall pipe connector between my furnace and chimney, and I collect a bunch of soot in there, but not as much in the chimney that stays warmer like a double-wall would do.


----------



## Darbycrash

Single Wall. I guess it is a common thing with gassers to make a lot of soot. SO the internet says....


----------



## DoubleB

I don't know whether there's a connection between gassers and soot.  I'd be more suspect of the single-wall stove pipe.  The pipe wall is cooled quite well by the room so it's a good magnet for whatever smoke didn't get burned.  The whole point of the gasser is to burn the smoke, which is more than non-gassers do.


----------



## jimlop

Wood burning can create soot, creosote, bottom ash, and fly ash as some of the physical byproducts that we must contend with. Fly ash as the name implies is very light and I believe not combustible. Would think there is always fly ash making it's way out our chimneys. Would guess you see accumulation at a tee area because of the turbulence created by the tee intrrupting the smooth flow of smoke and fly ash up the flue.


----------



## brenndatomu

The wheels are turnin here boys...right in my "redneck mad scientists" price range too!  The last piece to my Tundra (wanna be Kuuma) automation...ah hah hah hah haaah!  
https://hearth.com/talk/threads/automated-airflow.161316/


----------



## DoubleB

Yea, an automated modulating damper sounds great.  However, just admit that you wouldn't stop there. Next would be an O2 sensor feedback loop to control the primary to secondary air ratio to burn as cleanly as possible.  At least that's on my wish list that just ain't gonna happen in the foreseeable future.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Next would be an O2 sensor feedback loop to control the primary to secondary air ratio to burn as cleanly as possible.


Well, yeah!


----------



## jimlop

When members talk about  using a finishing nail to keep draft door from closing completely where/how is a nail positioned


----------



## DoubleB

I don't know, there's not a notch to wedge a nail in that I'm aware of.

I don't have a pic of mine, but I took a thin strip (1/4" wide) of sheet metal, bent it in half so the crotch could hold it in place, and slipped it in place over the edge of the middle air inlet so that the flap is just a smidge above flush.

For mine, even a finishing nail would have let way too much air in.  I'm leery enough of getting the heat out of the Tundra in a power outage, I didn't want too much extra air making it that much worse.  The first try of the sheet metal, it had a slight twist to it so it kept the flap open more than I wanted.  I flattened it out so that it keeps the flap open just a paper-thin amount, and that was plenty of a help but not too much.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> I took a thin strip (1/4" wide) of sheet metal, bent it in half so the crotch could hold it in place


Same here. I used a 1/4" wide piece of scrap left over from doing duct work. I bent it so it clips onto the lower corner of the flap and has a tab sticking out to use as a handle to make it easier to install/remove. For my application I only need to use it when it is warm out...say 35* or warmer, and no wind. Having a manometer on the wall hooked up full time is very valuable for this very reason (among others) (which I still have some NOS Dwyers available if anybody is interested)


----------



## sloeffle

jimlop said:


> When members talk about  using a finishing nail to keep draft door from closing completely where/how is a nail positioned


I don't have all of the metal working tools that some of these guys have so I improvise with what I have. 

I put the nail where the damper bends down at the bottom.The weight of the damper holds the nail in place.


----------



## Wood1Dennis

sloeffle said:


> I put the nail where the damper bends down at the bottom.The weight of the damper holds the nail in place.



Like he said. 

I use a sheet metal screw but same thing. Really I only use it when kindling a fire and I need to get a bunch of air in there to get it rolling. Set the screw up closer to the hinge to hold the damper open more. Move it down toward the bottom when she gets going so the damper is partially closed. I remove it all together when it is ready to be left alone. That is when my adjustable damper takes over and I fine tune it to what I need for heat output!


----------



## Darbycrash

Well the warmer weather has arrived and I must say I do not regret my purchase at all. The furnace heated my house with no issues since January. 

I will however, say, that when the weather gets to this tricky 50-60 degrees in the day and 30 somethings at night, heating with wood can be tricky. And heating with this furnace has proven to be a little extra tricky. 

My biggest issue arises when the house is say, 66 degrees. I throw a few pieces of ash into the fire box, set the thermostat to 72 and walk away. House heats right up (since it is about 40 degrees outside) fairly quickly. The house holds 72 no problem, all day. Now its time to go to bed, and I want to keep the fire going because the temp will drop at night and we have some youngsters in the house. The temp is around 69-70 degrees when I add just a few more pieces of white ash. The temp goes up to the set point, 72 degrees. T-stat closes the damper, while the wood is still gassing and has not yet gotten to the "down slope" side of the burning curve. The wood is spewing large amounts of hydrogen/carbon monoxide/methane which is in return mixing with the heat and small amounts of O2 being let into the firebox. Once the O2 gets to a high enough level a small explosion happens, enough to pressurize (puff) the system. Ok, this would be fine normally, however, every single joint in the flue pipe leaks smoke into the house and stinks the place up. Not to mention the C0 threat. Really annoying if you ask me. 

How are you guys dealing with the warmer weather??


----------



## brenndatomu

This is known as a backpuff. Its kinda surprising we don't have more problems with it than we do on Tundra (and Caddys). Its caused by a number of different things, but in your case I'd say its mainly just closing the damper too fast starving the fire for air. Once the oxygen levels catch up, then POOF! That was a real issue with the modded firebox on my Yukon Husky furnace...part of the reason I decided to try the Tundra.
The guys with EPA wood stoves deal with this issue by closing the damper slowly...real slowly...like cut it back 25%, wait 5 minutes, cut it back 25%, wait 5 minutes, and so on. 
I don't deal with this much in warmer weather because I switch to heating with the insert stove in the fireplace when temps come up. 
But I have found if I load onto a large bed of hot coals the same thing can happen. So what I do if I suspect the backpuff is a possibility, is to clip a paper clip on the side of the damper so it cant close the whole way. Sometimes I will slide it up near the pivot point (on the side) so it holds the damper open quite a bit. Then as the fire stabilizes in a couple minutes I will slide the clip down in a couple increments until it can be removed (unless you need to leave it on for a bit more air (draft) during warm weather) This should only take a few extra minutes when loading and will save a lot of frustration. Just make SURE you do not leave the furnace area with damper propped open (much) if you get a call or the kids are screaming bloody murder upstairs, pull the paper clip off before you run off! Better a backpuff than a fire...
Do you have a manometer mounted permanent? It could be your draft stalling out too...but the paper clip trick should help with that issue too.


----------



## Wood1Dennis

Darbycrash said:


> How are you guys dealing with the warmer weather??



Although I don't really have a back drafting problem with my set-up, I will get a smoky smoldering fire if I don't feed it enough O2 when the damper closes too soon. 

I find that I have to let the house cool down enough so that the demand for heat is high enough that I can get a decent fire going before the damper closes. Ironically I have been setting the damper more open. I put less wood in the firebox. In the winter I would load it full, but set the damper just slightly open so that it will hold the fire longer. In all cases I prop the damper open when kindling a new fire from scratch or from coals. I let the servo control take over from there.

I think the key is to build a good hot fire with enough fuel appropriate to the weather / heat demand. It is a bit of an educated guess, but I am getting better at it with experience.


----------



## brenndatomu

Wood1Dennis said:


> I think the key is to build a good hot fire with enough fuel appropriate to the weather / heat demand. It is a bit of an educated guess, but I am getting better at it with experience.


Heating with wood is definitely an acquired skill...practice practice practice!


----------



## DoubleB

I usually burn a full load (more than 3/4 full) with the damper closed once up to temp.  Sometimes, I'll burn a small load (less than 1/4 firebox) with the damper open the whole burn.  I'll do this if I need a little extra heat, like now with warm weather, or it's 7pm and really cold and I want to get a little extra heat before the overnight load at 9pm.

I just haven't had good success trying to burn a ~1/2 full firebox.  Too hot with the damper open, but not quite enough critical mass to sustain secondaries well.


----------



## Builderml

Darbycrash said:


> Well the warmer weather has arrived and I must say I do not regret my purchase at all. The furnace heated my house with no issues since January.
> 
> I will however, say, that when the weather gets to this tricky 50-60 degrees in the day and 30 somethings at night, heating with wood can be tricky. And heating with this furnace has proven to be a little extra tricky.
> 
> My biggest issue arises when the house is say, 66 degrees. I throw a few pieces of ash into the fire box, set the thermostat to 72 and walk away. House heats right up (since it is about 40 degrees outside) fairly quickly. The house holds 72 no problem, all day. Now its time to go to bed, and I want to keep the fire going because the temp will drop at night and we have some youngsters in the house. The temp is around 69-70 degrees when I add just a few more pieces of white ash. The temp goes up to the set point, 72 degrees. T-stat closes the damper, while the wood is still gassing and has not yet gotten to the "down slope" side of the burning curve. The wood is spewing large amounts of hydrogen/carbon monoxide/methane which is in return mixing with the heat and small amounts of O2 being let into the firebox. Once the O2 gets to a high enough level a small explosion happens, enough to pressurize (puff) the system. Ok, this would be fine normally, however, every single joint in the flue pipe leaks smoke into the house and stinks the place up. Not to mention the C0 threat. Really annoying if you ask me.
> 
> How are you guys dealing with the warmer weather??


When outside temps are over 50 or so and I want to take the chill out of the house what I usually do is make a small fire 3-4 splits and just let it run wide open . May not be the best way but it gets the job done and I have not had any of the stove farts that you speak of.


----------



## Woodworm21

Great forum, just picked up a new Tundra 2. Just curious as to the purpose of the digital screen and + - buttons on the back of the damper motor housing. When I asked Drolet they said this was used to set the circuit board at assembly. I'm assuming it's sets the upper and lower limits. My main concern is if someone where to touch these by mistake or while cleaning the unit etc, will it mess up my furnace settings.


----------



## brenndatomu

Welcome @Woodworm21 Congrats on the new T2! I don't think we have too many people on here with these units yet...maybe a couple...kinda new yet. I personally don't have any knowledge of the screen you mention...maybe someone else will know.
Maybe the larger Heatpro is the same? I think there are a few more of those around already.
My gut feeling is that you would need a code to make changes to the settings.
Have any pics of your setup?


----------



## Woodworm21

Thanks. No pics yet, I just rough installed the unit and flue pipe today. No duct work connected to the plenum yet. Fired it up to burn off the paint fumes etc. Another question: I plan on connecting the furnace to a thermostat. Right now in manual mode the damper/air inlet door is either completely open or completely closed (2 setting rocker switch). Is this the same with the thermostat or will the damper opening vary depending on need?


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodworm21 said:


> Right now in manual mode the damper/air inlet door is either completely open or completely closed (2 setting rocker switch). Is this the same with the thermostat or will the damper opening vary depending on need?


Boy, I wish.
No, it will be totally open when Tstat is calling for heat, then closed when not.


----------



## DoubleB

Welcome, @Woodworm21 !
I think I've only seen one other person on here say they had a T2, and I don't recall much discussion about it, so you might have just volunteered yourself to be the guinea pig to tell us all about the TundraII.  

What does the owner's manual say about the LCD screen and +/- buttons?  If they are accessible from the outside, I'd assume they are operational in regular use and that the owner's manual would say something about it.  Can you tell how many digits the LCD screen can display?

If I recall correctly, the TundraII was going to have a circuit board similar or the same as the Heatpro, and that the circuit board controlled which of 4 speeds the blower was at, based upon plenum temperature.  So I imagine any of those functions may be displayed and/or adjustable from the LCD and buttons.

No sense in me speculating much more, I'm sure many answers are in the owners manual, which I don't have time to peruse right now.

Welcome aboard.


----------



## Highbeam

Woodworm21 said:


> Right now in manual mode the damper/air inlet door is either completely open or completely closed (2 setting rocker switch). Is this the same with the thermostat or will the damper opening vary depending on need?



I don't own one but as I understand these furnaces is that the completely closed setting is actually still open a good bit to allow a minimum clean burning stove. Some people's furnaces just sit on this setting all the time. Then when you call for heat with the stat or the rocker the intake goes wide open until the stat is satisfied OR the furnace thinks it is getting too hot and then it will automatically close the damper until the furnace cools enough to safely reopen the damper. In addition, the fans run whenever the stove thinks it is hot enough.  

Can't wait to see some install pictures.

Some furnaces can more accurately meter intake air but they are several times more expensive.


----------



## Woodworm21

Still installing the T2 ductwork. Looking forward to having everything complete. I'm reading in this forum that some guys are bending a piece of scrap flashing/duct and slipping it over the air inlet door so that it jars open just a tad even when closed. I'll wait and try the unit as is first but when I gave it a test run, the minute I closed the air damper the fire died down immediately. But again this was only a very small fire with a few dry splits. I will try again with a larger, long burning fire when I have it all sat up.


----------



## Woodworm21

Just an update for anyone interested in the Tundra 2. My thoughts so far after about a month of moderate use is that this is a great unit. Very even heat distribution and efficient wood consumption. Even the rooms on the opposite end of my house are heated equally. I have a thermostat connected on the main floor. Anyone familiar with wood units know it's difficult to control the heat output once they get burning. I typically turn up the thermostat up when lighting or adding wood. After 5 minutes or so I turn it back down to close the damper and let it burn steady. The nights are getting frosty here now in Eastern Canada, and this unit is keeping my house at a toasty 25-27 celcius burning seasoned fir, spruce, birch mixture.


----------



## TDD11

I hope everyone has had a great year so far. With the cold nights, I have started having overnight fires within the past week or so. It got me thinking on my stove install - as I have had a chimney liner on my mind for awhile. I had a very highly rated local chimney company out to give me an estimate for a SS liner.

Here's my setup - 
Tundra installed in basement of a 2 story home.
26.6' tall interior chimney. Inside spacing of current clay liner is 6.5"x9.5"

I know everyone highly recommends a 6" liner for these stoves. I have paid attention to everyone's suggestions as far as other items that reduce draft (upstairs windows open, bathroom fans, and clothes dryers running), and I even open my basement window on the upwind side of the house, but I still have smoke/fumes spill back into the house if I open the stove door more than 1/3rd open - So I try to be quick when loading the stove but you still get some smoke. I do not have the proper amount of draft unless I have a good hot fire going. 

The chimney company owner examined my setup and simply advised me to clean my chimney, and tape off my barometric damper and see if I have an improvement. He liked that I had taken consideration of everything else - and even liked the temp controller that I built (thanks to this thread). The chimney is not spotless but is pretty clean - and I have never seen the BD open since I adjusted it. He said they would install a liner if I wanted, but he was concerned that I may not be completely satisfied with the results and did not want a dissatisfied customer - this was due to his concern that the ovalized liner would almost be too small. I did the math and ovalizing a 6" liner to 5"x7" reduces the cross sectional area of the liner by ~5% if I recall correctly, so I don't think that 5% would be a significant size reduction. 

As far as the fit/installation, my chimney as it is will likely not fit a round 6" un-insulated liner. He said they often they bust out the clay liners in order to make additional room for a liner, but due to my offset around my fireplace, he did not want to do that - I wouldn't allow it anyways.. 

The issue I have run into, as I originally considered doing the chimney lining myself, is that my current chimney size is small enough to make installation of a liner difficult. I have read about using ovalized liner but even ovalized liner, after insulation, would be very tight fit in that 6.5" liner, not to mention any sloppy mortar joints. He said - and I agree with his assessment, that it would be a very frustrating install regardless of whether I do it or they do. His recommendation was to clean my chimney every 2 months, maybe install a basement cold air supply from outside, on my west wall, and if I ever have a chimney fire then that will necessitate removing the clay liner and installing a insulated 6".  It is further complicated by a very steep roof pitch.

I did find what I believe is 1 minor air leak in my flue pipe and will address it - but I don't think this leak existed last burning season. Otherwise, what's everyone's thoughts?


----------



## Woodworm21

I'm no expert but I usually jar a window a few minutes before lighting. Also if I'm lighting and everything is cooled down I usually light a piece of cardboard or paper in the back of the firebox and this helps send the draft up the pipe. Other than that when I add wood to the fire I turn the stat up to open the air inlet and open the door relatively slow at first. With a hot fire I don't get alot of smoke back up at all. I'm running 6 inch flue into a 7 inch prefab stainless insulated chimney.


----------



## maple1

TDD11 said:


> I hope everyone has had a great year so far. With the cold nights, I have started having overnight fires within the past week or so. It got me thinking on my stove install - as I have had a chimney liner on my mind for awhile. I had a very highly rated local chimney company out to give me an estimate for a SS liner.
> 
> Here's my setup -
> Tundra installed in basement of a 2 story home.
> 26.6' tall interior chimney. Inside spacing of current clay liner is 6.5"x9.5"
> 
> I know everyone highly recommends a 6" liner for these stoves. I have paid attention to everyone's suggestions as far as other items that reduce draft (upstairs windows open, bathroom fans, and clothes dryers running), and I even open my basement window on the upwind side of the house, but I still have smoke/fumes spill back into the house if I open the stove door more than 1/3rd open - So I try to be quick when loading the stove but you still get some smoke. I do not have the proper amount of draft unless I have a good hot fire going.
> 
> The chimney company owner examined my setup and simply advised me to clean my chimney, and tape off my barometric damper and see if I have an improvement. He liked that I had taken consideration of everything else - and even liked the temp controller that I built (thanks to this thread). The chimney is not spotless but is pretty clean - and I have never seen the BD open since I adjusted it. He said they would install a liner if I wanted, but he was concerned that I may not be completely satisfied with the results and did not want a dissatisfied customer - this was due to his concern that the ovalized liner would almost be too small. I did the math and ovalizing a 6" liner to 5"x7" reduces the cross sectional area of the liner by ~5% if I recall correctly, so I don't think that 5% would be a significant size reduction.
> 
> As far as the fit/installation, my chimney as it is will likely not fit a round 6" un-insulated liner. He said they often they bust out the clay liners in order to make additional room for a liner, but due to my offset around my fireplace, he did not want to do that - I wouldn't allow it anyways..
> 
> The issue I have run into, as I originally considered doing the chimney lining myself, is that my current chimney size is small enough to make installation of a liner difficult. I have read about using ovalized liner but even ovalized liner, after insulation, would be very tight fit in that 6.5" liner, not to mention any sloppy mortar joints. He said - and I agree with his assessment, that it would be a very frustrating install regardless of whether I do it or they do. His recommendation was to clean my chimney every 2 months, maybe install a basement cold air supply from outside, on my west wall, and if I ever have a chimney fire then that will necessitate removing the clay liner and installing a insulated 6".  It is further complicated by a very steep roof pitch.
> 
> I did find what I believe is 1 minor air leak in my flue pipe and will address it - but I don't think this leak existed last burning season. Otherwise, what's everyone's thoughts?



I don't have a Tundra. But that sounds like a tall chimney that should give lots of draft even if not insulated - since it is inside. Have you ever measured it with a manometer? Did you try closing the baro damper? Sounds like your chimney guy is being pretty straight up with you.

You can't really tell for sure without measuring with a manometer. If it is insufficient, I would have said bust out the clay & put an insulated steel liner in - but not sure what your fireplace offset comment means exactly.


----------



## brenndatomu

What's your stove pipe like? 90s in it? How long? Have pics of your setup?
An interior chimney like that should suck like a hoover...but a liner will only make it better. You shouldn't have to ovalize it much.


----------



## TDD11

maple1 said:


> I don't have a Tundra. But that sounds like a tall chimney that should give lots of draft even if not insulated - since it is inside. Have you ever measured it with a manometer? Did you try closing the baro damper? Sounds like your chimney guy is being pretty straight up with you.
> 
> You can't really tell for sure without measuring with a manometer. If it is insufficient, I would have said bust out the clay & put an insulated steel liner in - but not sure what your fireplace offset comment means exactly.


I have a manometer permanently plumbed into my flue pipe. The draft varies with the conditions of course. Right now, on a few small pieces of wood taking off right now - I did have a fire overnight but only had a few small coals left, 36°F outside, I'm at .03 draft.

As far as the fireplace offset - My wood furnace is in my basement. I do have a fireplace on the ground floor - so my basement chimney for the wood furnace goes up, then offset around the top of the fireplace. The guy explained that in offsets, with the tool they use to bust out the clay liners, they are operating "blind" and can do excessive damage including busting out more than just the clay liner. He had an example of a house that was poorly built that when they bust through the chimney, it came out in the customer's kitchen.



brenndatomu said:


> What's your stove pipe like? 90s in it? How long? Have pics of your setup?
> An interior chimney like that should suck like a hoover...but a liner will only make it better. You shouldn't have to ovalize it much.


My concern is that even if I ovalize to 5", once I insulate it is back up to 6-6.5" and that will be too tight of a fit to feed it down.

I did tape off the BD as he suggested, and I noticed a small gap where the flue enters the thimble so I secured that. With a small fire going, if I go around every joint in the flue with a lighter, there is a couple spots where the flame sucks into the connection joints, but not what I would consider excessive - but it is not air tight either.

The guy commented that I have one of the nicest stoves he's seen while in the business, and was very impressed by the temp controller as well.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I have a manometer permanently plumbed into my flue pipe. The draft varies with the conditions of course. Right now, on a few small pieces of wood taking off right now - I did have a fire overnight but only had a few small coals left, 36°F outside, I'm at .03 draft.
> 
> As far as the fireplace offset - My wood furnace is in my basement. I do have a fireplace on the ground floor - so my basement chimney for the wood furnace goes up, then offset around the top of the fireplace. The guy explained that in offsets, with the tool they use to bust out the clay liners, they are operating "blind" and can do excessive damage including busting out more than just the clay liner. He had an example of a house that was poorly built that when they bust through the chimney, it came out in the customer's kitchen.
> 
> 
> My concern is that even if I ovalize to 5", once I insulate it is back up to 6-6.5" and that will be too tight of a fit to feed it down.
> 
> I did tape off the BD as he suggested, and I noticed a small gap where the flue enters the thimble so I secured that. With a small fire going, if I go around every joint in the flue with a lighter, there is a couple spots where the flame sucks into the connection joints, but not what I would consider excessive - but it is not air tight either.
> 
> The guy commented that I have one of the nicest stoves he's seen while in the business, and was very impressed by the temp controller as well.


I would think uninsulated would be fine on an interior chimney...should work a lot better than what you have now.
One thought, how far is that stove pipe shoved into the breech? I have heard of people having issues with draft and it ended up being that the pipe was shoved way too far into the chimney connection...


----------



## maple1

Ya, 0.03 is not very much draft. But I think you're saying that is on coals? What is it mid-burn?

Is there a cleanout at the bottom? Well sealed?

You might be kind of between a rock & hard place. Tall chimney, but all that cold clay plus what is sounding like some bends for that offset thing might be too much to overcome. (You aren't saying that the fireplace & furnace are on the same flue are you?). That's assuming the top of the chimney is in specs, like far enough from the roofline etc..

You can get draft inducers, that might be a help for when lighting and reloading. No experience with one, but it was suggested as an alternative to me if my draft situation didn't quite work out. But I was OK without one.


----------



## KC Matt

I will update this thread as well.  I have a late Tundra 1 running 3 Johnson Control 420 boxes using supply temperature to regulate the fan speed, damper, and fan on.  It's all run through the factory limit switch.  After running all last winter no cracks have appeared, firebrick looks perfect and aside from a little dust inside the firebox, this furnace looks new.  Last year I cleaned the chimney once and got a cup or two of soot and I will clean it again tomorrow.  I'll also install the updated fire brick that's been setting here all year.

The control system is a necessity for these furnaces in my view.  Before the controllers I was sorely disappointed with this stove before the controllers but now love it.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> The control system is a necessity for these furnaces in my view. Before the controllers I was sorely disappointed with this stove before the controllers but now love it.


Yeah that was my take also...I was disappointed until I installed the temp and fan speed controller...big difference...


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> I would think uninsulated would be fine on an interior chimney...should work a lot better than what you have now.
> One thought, how far is that stove pipe shoved into the breech? I have heard of people having issues with draft and it ended up being that the pipe was shoved way too far into the chimney connection...


I hadn't really considered uninsulated, but I agree with you that it would probably be sufficient, just due to it being a warm interior chimney. I have read of someone on here who packed the top 3 feet of the clay flue with insulation around their SS chimney liner, just to hold as much heat as possible in the chimney below the top plate. The only thing is, I'm not 100% on clearance to combustible requirements, but my house is built around the chimney so the chimney company owner yesterday said it "required" insulation to meet code for CTC. But with the SS liner and the temp controller on the stove, I wouldn't be so worried about over temp as long as I kept the chimney clean.

My flue pipe is not pushed too far into the thimble, in fact I don't think it was far enough in. Since hitting it further in I think I have a little better draft than yesterday.



maple1 said:


> Ya, 0.03 is not very much draft. But I think you're saying that is on coals? What is it mid-burn?
> 
> Is there a cleanout at the bottom? Well sealed?
> 
> You might be kind of between a rock & hard place. Tall chimney, but all that cold clay plus what is sounding like some bends for that offset thing might be too much to overcome. (You aren't saying that the fireplace & furnace are on the same flue are you?). That's assuming the top of the chimney is in specs, like far enough from the roofline etc..
> 
> You can get draft inducers, that might be a help for when lighting and reloading. No experience with one, but it was suggested as an alternative to me if my draft situation didn't quite work out. But I was OK without one.


Sorry, .03 was on start of my morning reload. So the chimney was cooled off some but not cold. I am running around .05-.06 during operation, with 350°F flue temp (damper closed). I can get another .01 if I open the basement window. As I mentioned above your quote, I think my flue pipe was not sealed in the thimble. It is BETTER now - but still not 100% IMO. 

You're correct that I'm not saying the 2 are on the same flue.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> my house is built around the chimney so the chimney company owner yesterday said it "required" insulation to meet code for CTC. But with the SS liner and the temp controller on the stove, I wouldn't be so worried about over temp as long as I kept the chimney clean.


True on the CTC. But better with a liner in it than the way it is now...IMO...
BTW, my draft drops like that later in the burn too...I still have no smoke roll out issues...
If your draft is 0.01 better with the window open then I'd be installing a fresh air intake


----------



## TDD11

According to the Tundra manual, a minimum draft of .04" W.C. is required at all times. I definitely don't meet that requirement. 

I'm wondering about ovalizing a 6" or running a 5.5" liner. I will do the math to calculate the difference in cross sectional area.


----------



## TDD11

Stupid question. Is a fresh air intake plumbed direct to the wood furnace, or just into the basement room that the stove is in, in general?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Stupid question. Is a fresh air intake plumbed direct to the wood furnace, or just into the basement room that the stove is in, in general?


Some stoves can be connected directly, Tundra doesn't have a kit for this, so it would just be to the general area of the furnace.
You want to put a cold air trap in so cold air doesn't flood the basement. I have a 6" FAI, (or OAK) but I think a 4" would be enough unless your house is really tight or you have a lot of other things (fans, etc) drawing air too.
Here is some suggestions from the Yukon manual.


----------



## DoubleB

@TDD11 ,
In your pictures in post 2281, your tee appears slanted to the rear so your baro must also be slanted to the rear, which I think can mess up the reading.  Simple fix if you twist the tee 1/4 turn to either side.  

I have an uninsulated liner and seems to be fine with me (I haven't tried my Tundra without it for comparison, though).



KC Matt said:


> I have a late Tundra 1 running 3 Johnson Control 420 boxes using supply temperature to regulate the fan speed, damper, and fan on.


 @KC Matt , I don't remember if you've posted about this yet.  Do you have a schematic?  Sounds really interesting.


----------



## TDD11

DoubleB said:


> @TDD11 ,
> In your pictures in post 2281, your tee appears slanted to the rear so your baro must also be slanted to the rear, which I think can mess up the reading.  Simple fix if you twist the tee 1/4 turn to either side.
> 
> I have an uninsulated liner and seems to be fine with me (I haven't tried my Tundra without it for comparison, though).


I seem to recall the BD manual stating that the shaft that the damper pivots on, has to be installed horizontal. I'll see if I can find this in the manual when I get back to a computer. It's a vozelgang for reference.

I think I mentioned earlier but I never notice the damper open.


----------



## maple1

TDD11 said:


> I seem to recall the BD manual stating that the shaft that the damper pivots on, has to be installed horizontal. I'll see if I can find this in the manual when I get back to a computer. It's a vozelgang for reference.
> 
> I think I mentioned earlier but I never notice the damper open.



Yes that is correct.

Seems I have heard on here before some questions about the vozelgang quality but not sure. But taping it shut then seeing the impact of that on the manometer would determine that.


----------



## TDD11

Ok, so weekend update. I have had the BD taped off and also closed off that gap where the flue connector is pressed into the thimble. 

During operation I have .05" W.C which is great. If I open the window, and slowly open the door, my smoke rollout is reduced a lot from last week. At times I haven't seen any smoke roll out at all with the door wide open - although I have been trying to use my nose to see if I can smell any fumes - so far it is GREATLY reduced. I attribute it mostly to that gap that I found. I'm tempted to replace the BD with regular pipe, but if I do go with a liner, than I may need the BD because I would probably have overdraft. 

I guess I need to decide how I would want to do a fresh air intake into my basement, in the room the wood furnace is installed in. It makes a .01" WC difference according to my manometer, just by opening the window. Not to mention it would negate the effect of the bathroom shower fan or dryer running and puling my draft down further. Do we all agree on that?

My next question then is what size liner would you guys go with? Uninsulated 6" would be very tight. I was wondering about minor ovalizing of it, but I don't know what sort of headache the ovalizing creates when it comes to the Tee connector and Top plate connections. I know that ovalized kits and the adapter fittings quickly increase the price. Lets hear your thoughts? If I'm going to do this, I need to pull the trigger and order something soon.


----------



## maple1

Is this a new install? This will be the first winter for it?

I might be tempted to go as-is for this winter - your draft should improve as the weather gets colder. 

For intake air, I have a window right behind my boiler. I open it a crack, and stuff some FG insulation in the crack. Air is able to be pulled in but it stops big drafts from coming in. Not likely a pro grade solution but it's what I do.


----------



## brenndatomu

I'd be temped to order a round liner and try it. If no go then you can DIY ovalize it...it wouldn't take much...there are lots of DIY ovalizing youtube vids. You just work it back round out on the ends to install the tee and cap then...


----------



## TDD11

maple1 said:


> Is this a new install? This will be the first winter for it?
> 
> I might be tempted to go as-is for this winter - your draft should improve as the weather gets colder.
> 
> For intake air, I have a window right behind my boiler. I open it a crack, and stuff some FG insulation in the crack. Air is able to be pulled in but it stops big drafts from coming in. Not likely a pro grade solution but it's what I do.


This will be my 2nd winter with the stove. I believe I fired it up in mid-late December of last year. I don't really recall having the draft issues as much initially as I did later in the winter/early spring last year.

Great point about it not being super cold yet. Although tonight after cleaning my burn tubes and flue connector, and having a basement window on the west side of the house open, I was hitting .08" W.C. at maybe 250°F flue temps into a start up. I was impressed although that is certainly not the norm. I just need to determine the best way to install that fresh air supply vent. 


brenndatomu said:


> I'd be temped to order a round liner and try it. If no go then you can DIY ovalize it...it wouldn't take much...there are lots of DIY ovalizing youtube vids. You just work it back round out on the ends to install the tee and cap then...


I thought about trying to form it back to round, enough to get the connectors on. I wasn't sure how easy that would be. I have a very steep roof, though I think I could do it with 2 ladders with ridge hooks. I just thought I better get the kit ordered before the weather gets too cold.


----------



## brenndatomu

I guess really you would put the tee body on, and then ovalize from there up...but leave the top 6-12" of liner round for clamping the top plate/cap assembly on...I assume it would be a top down install...the tee body has to go on before the install...the tee snout gets clamped on once the liner is in place. You could test fit by finding the liner diameter and then lowering a piece of pipe, paint can, etc down to see if it clears or if there is any mortar that needs broken off


----------



## KC Matt

DoubleB said:


> @TDD11 ,
> In your pictures in post 2281, your tee appears slanted to the rear so your baro must also be slanted to the rear, which I think can mess up the reading.  Simple fix if you twist the tee 1/4 turn to either side.
> 
> I have an uninsulated liner and seems to be fine with me (I haven't tried my Tundra without it for comparison, though).
> 
> 
> @KC Matt , I don't remember if you've posted about this yet.  Do you have a schematic?  Sounds really interesting.



I've never drawn a schematic or taken pictures since there seemed to be little interest in my setup when I first posted about it.  I will do so this evening and post a couple of pictures.  The install is ugly because it was intended to be temporary/testing piece but it worked so well I never had the desire to rework the boxes.  

How do you draw a schematic MS Paint?


----------



## KC Matt

I did get some pictures, and I learned something very valuable today.  In preparation for taking pictures I started to seal up some of the duct work to impress all of you, my internet friends.  What I quickly discovered is that for each joint sealed up, the stove became noticeably more quiet.  That made me realize the stove could be losing a lot of heat so I took a long lighter and started looking for leaks.  Wow, was that an eye opener!  For anybody who has not done exactly that test, I strongly suggest you do so immediately.  The increase in efficiency was immediately noticeable and as I type this, I have the doors open because it's just too damned hot in here. 

Some of the leaks that would blow out the lighter were: the extra 8 holes on top of the plenum that surround the ducts that were used- these were screw holes to hold the block off plates.  Where the chimney stub passes through the heat exchanger: THIS WAS A MASSIVE LEAK!  Where the starter collars meet the ductwork.  Where the filter adapter meets the furnace body. At every pipe joint.  On and on...

Seriously, if you have not spent the time to track down all of the leaks in your ductwork you are losing a tremendous amount of heat.  It took 3 hours to seal up the duct work you will see in these pictures.  I used half a tube of duct seal and probably 100 feet of foil tape. I also bought some hi heat concrete based caulk that's certified to 750* to seal the massive gap between the chimney connection and the body of the stove.


----------



## KC Matt

OK, this is the schematic.  Keep in mind I'm no engineer and this is the first use of this software so this may not be technically correct, but it's accurate.  For one thing there is no option to show how the Johnson Control box actually works, but it's a double throw single pole switch so that's what I used.  Also, there is no reason to ever buy a 419 box because the 421 is much improved.  And there is no reason to buy a controller powered by 12VDC but that's what the 419 is  This was a learning process for sure.

Over the last year I've spent dozens of hours watching this furnace cycle, tweaking the settings over and over.  These are the settings that worked best:

Damper control:

Set point adjusted for heat demand
Differential 2*F
ASD no
OFS 0
Sensor failure 0 (Closed)

Blower on/off controller

On 97*F
Off 83*F
Sensor fault 1 (blower on)
ASD 2 minutes

High/low blower speed controller

on 91(low speed)
off 93 (high speed)
Sensor failure 0 (high speed)

Model A421 ABC-02


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## KC Matt

Here you can see the sealant around the heat exchanger.  There was an 1/8" gap around most of this opening.  I used 3M Fire Block FB136


----------



## Possumstomper

Hello all. Been a lurker for little over a year on this thread. Bought a tundra fall before last just now getting around to the installation.  After reading some of this thread about 60 pages. I have come away with some great info, but I do have a question.  I have aquired a mypin Ta4 controller after reading brenndatomu's mention of but am unsure how to wire it correctly to control my damper. I've got the controller and a thermocouple no relay


----------



## KC Matt

Possumstomper said:


> Hello all. Been a lurker for little over a year on this thread. Bought a tundra fall before last just now getting around to the installation.  After reading some of this thread about 60 pages. I have come away with some great info, but I do have a question.  I have aquired a mypin Ta4 controller after reading brenndatomu's mention of but am unsure how to wire it correctly to control my damper. I've got the controller and a thermocouple no relay



I'm not familiar with that controller, but to activate the damper you just connect the two terminals on the back of the furnace, in this case with the controller.  No relay involved there; that is more for the blower speed controller.  I'd suggest you also install a controller for the blower on since the factory switch lets the fire get very hot before coming on.  I suspect that's a big part of the cracking issue and it wastes an awful lot of heat.


----------



## Possumstomper

KC Matt said:


> I'm not familiar with that controller, but to activate the damper you just connect the two terminals on the back of the furnace, in this case with the controller.  No relay involved there; that is more for the blower speed controller.  I'd suggest you also install a controller for the blower on since the factory switch lets the fire get very hot before coming on.  I suspect that's a big part of the cracking issue and it wastes an awful lot of heat.


Yeah I'm just now getting into the part of this thread where there is talk about variable speed motors, controllers ect. Wish I would have read this entirely last year


----------



## brenndatomu

Possumstomper said:


> I have aquired a mypin Ta4 controller after reading brenndatomu's mention of but am unsure how to wire it correctly to control my damper. I've got the controller and a thermocouple no relay


Here is a wiring diagram that @3fordasho posted, I basically used the same setup except wiring in a relay to "flip" the contacts of the Mypin...it had (I don't recall now) NC or NO, and I needed the other...wiring in a DPDT relay allows you to have either NC or NO contacts.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/everything-drolet-tundra-heatmax.140788/page-13#post-1926802


KC Matt said:


> I'm not familiar with that controller, but to activate the damper you just connect the two terminals on the back of the furnace, in this case with the controller.  No relay involved there; that is more for the blower speed controller.  I'd suggest you also install a controller for the blower on since the factory switch lets the fire get very hot before coming on.  I suspect that's a big part of the cracking issue and it wastes an awful lot of heat.


The Mypin is used as a firebox/flue temp controller only.
I don't recall now if I posted a wiring diagram on the blower speed controller that I added later...wiring was pretty much right from their directions...more or less...these speed controllers are meant for use on AC compressors, so the directions show that, but it is still more or less the same electrically.
Just an FYI on the speed controllers...don't get to nuts with them...turning them down too far _could_ burn up the motor...although very unlikely in this application (IMO) because the load on the motor drops to almost nothing at the lower speeds. But I still wouldn't go under 60-65%...really no reason to go any lower anyways because it is moving only very small amounts of air at this point. Speed controlling these blowers this way I'm sure is not recommended by the manufacturer of the blower, (and Drolet I'd bet) but I have used it the better part of 2 seasons now with no issues. Just be aware that even though it may not blow up the blower motor right away...or even anytime soon, it probably isn't going to _help_ motor life, long term...


----------



## Possumstomper

Thanks for the info.  That makes sense now about the relay. Gotta check that mypin and see how it's setup. I'm still reading through the thread and gaining important info.


----------



## TDD11

I guess I need to look in to these variable speed fan controllers. Do you guys highly recommend them? What exactly are the benefits again?

I love the damper controller that I installed with the guidance of this forum, I can't imagine not having it.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I guess I need to look in to these variable speed fan controllers. Do you guys highly recommend them?


It made a huge difference for me, but my Tundra just didn't seem to work well, as evidenced by this thread. The constant fan on/off cycling drove me crazy, and I knew I was losing heating at the end of a burn when the fan would kick off and there just wasn't quite enough temp left to kick it back on...that's where the speed control shines, it keeps the blower scouring any available heat and putting it to the house for much longer...low BTU output, but better than none! Made a big difference for me...and got rid of the cycling...I hate that!


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> It made a huge difference for me, but my Tundra just didn't seem to work well, as evidenced by this thread. The constant fan on/off cycling drove me crazy, and I knew I was losing heating at the end of a burn when the fan would kick off and there just wasn't quite enough temp left to kick it back on...that's where the speed control shines, it keeps the blower scouring any available heat and putting it to the house for much longer...low BTU output, but better than none! Made a big difference for me...and got rid of the cycling...I hate that!



Like you already know, it made a noticeable difference for me too, as I added one to my Kuuma last winter.  I set it up a bit differently than you guys do on your Tundra's, but it still made a difference.  I have my snap switch controlling the on/off of the whole system.  It shuts it off at ~104° - 106° plenum temps at ~65VAC.  This leads to some pretty low air volumes, but increased supply temps, which my house seems to really like.  I think it increases the furnaces delivered efficiency's by extracting more usable BTU's out of the furnace near the end of the burn by not moving such a high volume of air so fast which just leads to a high volume of cooler air being delivered as opposed to a much lower volume of warm air. 

I may try lowering my snap switch 5° to lower my blower cutoff some, but then I will have to raise the blower speed (by way of my variable resistor pot) so that at cutoff I'm not below that 65V.  This will increase the overall volume of air being delivered and decrease my overall supply temps.  I'm not sure if I would see an improvement or not.


----------



## 3fordasho

TDD11 said:


> I guess I need to look in to these variable speed fan controllers. Do you guys highly recommend them? What exactly are the benefits again?
> 
> I love the damper controller that I installed with the guidance of this forum, I can't imagine not having it.




I added the variable blower control to both my Tundras and like it a lot. The factory tundra snap switch worked OK on the one in the house, but the shop unit was inconsistent at best and like brenn mentioned the cycling kind of sucks. With the variable speed blower control the fan will run for the duration of the burn, in fact it was still running this morning at 5:30 am after last nights 10pm reload. 

 It's not necessary to use a snap switch with the blower control but I do use a adjustable snap switch to shut down the blower control at the end of the burn, I find the blower controls I have will run the blower motor very slow before the control itself shuts the motor off - too slowly I feel,  so I use the snap switch to shut it down.  I think this is my third year with the controls and no motor issues so far.

I have to say with the damper control and blower control this is the slickest wood burning set up I've ever run, very easy to load and go when you are in a time crunch, like every morning before work when you don't have a bunch of time to dink around.


----------



## KC Matt

TDD11 said:


> I guess I need to look in to these variable speed fan controllers. Do you guys highly recommend them? What exactly are the benefits again?
> 
> I love the damper controller that I installed with the guidance of this forum, I can't imagine not having it.



My fan speed control is set up different than above, but yes, it makes a difference.  Without it, you set the fan on speed 1,2,3 or 4 and it stays on that speed.  If you set it on a higher speed, it will cycle the fan on and off frequently during the burn. When the fan is off the heat exchanger is absorbing some heat, but you are losing some of it up the stack.

Conversely if you put the fan on a lower speed, it will run a greater percentage of time, but your supply temp will be very high early in the burn.  I have no data to back this up but I feel that more heat would go up the stack even though you would flow less air at a higher temp.

What I like about the variable (2 speed) setup I have is that the fan runs most of the time and produces an even heat which feels better in the house and keeps the temperature more consistent.

The reason I did the 2 speed  is that it should be more reliable and that's my #2 priority, only behind safety.  Here reliability really is safety.  With the 2 speed the motor is always running at full cycle, and it spends about half the time on speed 1 and half on speed 3. If the sensor OR the controller fails, the blower goes to high speed.  The Johnson Control boxes are used extensively in industrial applications where reliability is essential.  A friend of mine has been designing and installing industrial control systems for 30 years and he guided me towards this setup.  He was emphatic that running a single speed motor on a variable control will shorten motor life.

Whether you use the variable speed controller or a two speed setup, you are largely accomplishing the same thing, just in different ways and with different priorities.

In my experience, the other two controls are more or less required where this one is a nice option.  The factory on/off switch is totally inadequate and without an automated damper control, the only way the furnace really works is for somebody to stay in front of it, turning the switch on and off all day.


----------



## Possumstomper

First small fire cause I couldn't wait to finish install 100%


----------



## KC Matt

Hope you don't have to open the windows with that barn burner going!  LOL.  BTW that furnace won't run worth a hoot with a tiny load like that.  You need a good amount of BTU to get the furnace to work, along with a good draw on your stack.

When I uncrated my furnace, I started a small fire with no chimney attached and was nervous about how poorly it worked.  There is no half way with these things.  If you are going to run a Tundra you have to take all of the advice in these 90 pages to heart.


----------



## TDD11

You guys have convinced me. I'm going to order the Totaline P251-0083H control. I will likely have some questions when I dig in to it.

I need to rethink my duct plumbing at some point.. currently the Tundra feeds in to my gas furnace's supply duct. Just as KC Matt does, I put a block off in my gas furnace when using my Tundra, to prevent backflow through the gas furnace. The output of the gas furnace is some oddball size and I can't find a damper for it. In a perfect world, I'd have a damper on it, so that if for some reason I don't come home, the gas furnace will keep the house above 50°F. Not only that, but I need to add a humidifier at some point also.


----------



## KC Matt

TDD11 said:


> You guys have convinced me. I'm going to order the Totaline P251-0083H control. I will likely have some questions when I dig in to it.
> 
> I need to rethink my duct plumbing at some point.. currently the Tundra feeds in to my gas furnace's supply duct. Just as KC Matt does, I put a block off in my gas furnace when using my Tundra, to prevent backflow through the gas furnace. The output of the gas furnace is some oddball size and I can't find a damper for it. In a perfect world, I'd have a damper on it, so that if for some reason I don't come home, the gas furnace will keep the house above 50°F. Not only that, but I need to add a humidifier at some point also.



That's the same situation as here.  A gravity damper would work on the supply side, but on the return side the only way to automate the changeover is to put an electric damper on the trunk.  The damper exists for a price of $350 plus the controller.... it would be well over $500 for those parts.  In my case, I'd have to move a wall which would mean reworking hardwood flooring, ceiling texture, ductwork, replacing/reframing a door  repainting the living room, etc.  easily another $500+ and many hours of labor.  Nah, I'll just switch the blockoff plates twice a year.   

But yes it does knaw at me.


----------



## Possumstomper

KC Matt said:


> Hope you don't have to open the windows with that barn burner going!  LOL.  BTW that furnace won't run worth a hoot with a tiny load like that.  You need a good amount of BTU to get the furnace to work, along with a good draw on your stack.
> 
> When I uncrated my furnace, I started a small fire with no chimney attached and was nervous about how poorly it worked.  There is no half way with these things.  If you are going to run a Tundra you have to take all of the advice in these 90 pages to heart.


How correct you were. It wasn't worth a piss with that little fire.


----------



## Possumstomper

Ok I feel kinda dumb but could someone post a picture of their wiring diagram for a Totaline P251-0083H head pressure control.  Please. I've never been good at electrical period and especially don't have a clue about anything like this. Please help my slow ass


----------



## brenndatomu

Possumstomper said:


> Ok I feel kinda dumb but could someone post a picture of their wiring diagram for a Totaline P251-0083H head pressure control.  Please. I've never been good at electrical period and especially don't have a clue about anything like this. Please help my slow ass


I'll try to get some pics and write something up...unless someone already has this handy and wants to beat me to it...


----------



## Possumstomper

Last night was first night of actually running stove. It did fair. Kept house at a steady 68 with a medium sized load with windy conditons in the 30's. Definitely a new world for me. I finally got my draft dialed in which helped a bunch. Next on the list is to set fan speed. I originally set it a .20 static pressure verified by my manometer, setting 3 on fan. I'm gonna try to set it lower hopefully to keep a more constant heat instead of the fan cycling all the time. At least till the new controller arrives. So far I'm happy with it especially not having a clue about what I'm doing.  Still on the list is to seal ash plug, install/reposition snap discs,front firebrick, bathroom timer and controllers for damper/fan. My stove is #740 still hasn't gotten all the updates. Yes I know I didn't come straight up at minimum 12 inches off stove.


----------



## brenndatomu

Possumstomper said:


> Yes I know I didn't come straight up at minimum 12 inches off stove.


The stove pipe looks fine to me. The thing that scares me is the ductwork, you have built the perfect heat trap. If the power goes out right after a reload, that thing will go nuclear with no gravity cooling of the firebox...this setup is not legal with any solid fuel furnace that I know of, or local code, if you care about that. The only solution other than changing the ductwork (which I can only assume isn't feasible?) is to install an emergency heat dump door in that "plenum" on top of the furnace there. It is basically just a door that is held shut by a spring attached to a fusible link...it gets to a certain temp, the link melts, allowing the door to drop open and the furnace to get gravity cooling. I found out this is also the reason that the Tundra blower box has all those slotted holes (don't cover them) so if the power goes out there can be some air pulled in easily...in other words, air that does have to be pulled through the filter...which is pretty restrictive when it comes to gravity air flow. Heck, even my $5000 Yukon furnace has a 1" gap along side the air filter for this very reason...had to be there to pass UL testing I hear.
Here's a link to the only EHD that I know of anymore...
http://www.yukon-eagle.com/FURNACEACCESSORIES/SAFETYHEATDUMP/tabid/200/Default.aspx


----------



## brenndatomu

You will probably find best performance on one of the two lowest fan speeds I'd bet...even if the SP is a little too low


----------



## Possumstomper

Actually have 2 8×14 registers installed in top of ductwork incase of power outage, but yes it wasn't feasible to run any other way. I will sure look at that damper you linked tho. Thank you.


----------



## Possumstomper

I like that dump better. Thanks again


----------



## brenndatomu

Possumstomper said:


> I like that dump better. Thanks again


I have a pretty good gravity heating setup and I still installed one of these dumps...makes me sleep better at night if nothing else


----------



## Possumstomper

I've got an idea for an emergency dump on the cheap. I plan on removing the 2 registers I've got mounted in the top of the second arm of the "plenum". Fabricating a door that is slightly bigger all the way around. Attaching said door to a piano hinge that allows door to swing in, effectively sealing ductwork into crawlspace off. Will use heat activated fusible link from granger, and also an appropriate spring to put tension on the door. The links are rated around 8 lbs of holding force.  I think this will work as a poor man's heat dump. Thoughts?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Possumstomper said:


> Ok I feel kinda dumb but could someone post a picture of their wiring diagram for a Totaline P251-0083H head pressure control.  Please. I've never been good at electrical period and especially don't have a clue about anything like this. Please help my slow ass



This won't be exactly what you need, seeing I don't have a Tundra, but it should give you some guidance on how to wire up the controller.  I will be adding a second relay, as shown, so the power will switch from supplying power to the head pressure controller to the low speed winding's on the motor when my wood furnace blower is on AND LP furnace kicks in.  This is to keep the LP blower from backfeeding the wood furnace blower during those few very cold mornings the LP furnace may kick in when the wood furnace blower is running very slow at the end of a burn.  I noticed last winter this happened and due to how slow the wood furnace blower was, the LP furnace reversed flow on the wood furnace.  This setup will autimatically kick the wood furnace blower on low to avoid this situation.


----------



## brenndatomu

Possumstomper said:


> I've got an idea for an emergency dump on the cheap. I plan on removing the 2 registers I've got mounted in the top of the second arm of the "plenum". Fabricating a door that is slightly bigger all the way around. Attaching said door to a piano hinge that allows door to swing in, effectively sealing ductwork into crawlspace off. Will use heat activated fusible link from granger, and also an appropriate spring to put tension on the door. The links are rated around 8 lbs of holding force.  I think this will work as a poor man's heat dump. Thoughts?


Should work...I had thought of doing something similar but never found a fusible link that I liked. Just make sure it actually flows good when the door is open. The Yukon one is made so that the door is angled down and will simply fall open when the link melts


----------



## Possumstomper

brenndatomu said:


> Should work...I had thought of doing something similar but never found a fusible link that I liked. Just make sure it actually flows good when the door is open. The Yukon one is made so that the door is angled down and will simply fall open when the link melts


 They way I've got it pictured in my mind it should work. I ordered a few links to give it a test run. I appreciate you pointing that out. Thanks


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## Possumstomper

My idea was going to go with a lower temp link. 165° since its about 4 feet away from outputs on furnace.


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## Possumstomper

The link I'm using


----------



## DoubleB

I'm not familiar with the fusible link heat dumps.  What I'd also consider is a normally-open powered duct damper, put it on top of the plenum with a register over it.  Closes when powered.  Drawback is it always consumes a little power.  Benefit is they're readily available, I can understand it, I can test it frequently, and I also can close a register over it for extended periods when I want to turn off power.

(I don't use this, but would consider it).


----------



## Possumstomper

Well night 2 was better. Still lots to learn and do to this thing to get it where I want it to be. House was at 65 last night, woke up to 73 this morning with a 28° night. Fired fresh load. About 7pm topped off about 9. Was nice coal bed at 5am this morning.  I lowered fan speed and that really helped with heat consistency. Seemed like my secondary burn times were up as well. Next thing since I'm going into a crawlspace is to insulate my ductwork. I think it can only help.


----------



## Highbeam

Possumstomper said:


> Well night 2 was better. Still lots to learn and do to this thing to get it where I want it to be. House was at 65 last night, woke up to 73 this morning with a 28° night. Fired fresh load. About 7pm topped off about 9. Was nice coal bed at 5am this morning.  I lowered fan speed and that really helped with heat consistency. Seemed like my secondary burn times were up as well. Next thing since I'm going into a crawlspace is to insulate my ductwork. I think it can only help.



Did you purposely not remove the stickers from the door glass before firing? Doesn’t that drive you nuts? You obviously appreciate the fireview.


----------



## Possumstomper

Highbeam said:


> Did you purposely not remove the stickers from the door glass before firing? Doesn’t that drive you nuts? You obviously appreciate the fireview.


 sad to say I get way ahead of myself sometimes. It has been on my to do list since the first small fire, but I usually only remember it after I got this thing going good. Yes it does obstruct the lovely view.


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## KC Matt

You're on your way now.  That furnace will take some tweaking to get it working to your satisfaction.  It looks like you have some substantial air leaks in that ductwork; if so, i strongly suggest you seal those.  Also, if at all possible I'd figure out a way to attach the return air.  

Main thing is you're up and running just in time for winter!


----------



## brenndatomu

Possumstomper said:


> Well night 2 was better. Still lots to learn and do to this thing to get it where I want it to be. House was at 65 last night, woke up to 73 this morning with a 28° night. Fired fresh load. About 7pm topped off about 9. Was nice coal bed at 5am this morning.  I lowered fan speed and that really helped with heat consistency. Seemed like my secondary burn times were up as well. Next thing since I'm going into a crawlspace is to insulate my ductwork. I think it can only help.


Well those are some impressive results for sure! You must have a smaller home, or it is really well insulated! I have never been able to raise the temp of the house more than 2, maybe 3 degrees on a load, and I consider it a success if it is time to reload and the house is not any lower than the temp I started with, I'd be over the moon happy with results like yours. I had to scratch and claw for every BTU out of mine...of course I guess that journey has helped a lot of others here now too...


----------



## Possumstomper

Yeah man its only little over 1100sf, couldn't say about insulation I've not had a wall open. Floor is pretty well insulated tho. When I ran the return it seemed like that stuff (fiberglass batt) was a foot thick. It's warmed up a bit today, it was reloaded around noon and five. Unfortunately it's pushing 85 in here now I had to open my registers in my rigged plenum to dump some heat off. I hope it continues to do this well. Still going to insulate my ductwork.  Yes your posts have helped tremendously. Finally finished reading this thread this morning.  My fan controller showed up today so hopefully I can get that going as well as all the other odd and ends.


----------



## Possumstomper

KC Matt said:


> You're on your way now.  That furnace will take some tweaking to get it working to your satisfaction.  It looks like you have some substantial air leaks in that ductwork; if so, i strongly suggest you seal those.  Also, if at all possible I'd figure out a way to attach the return air. Oh yes I've since sealed that up, it leaked like a sive. I'e
> Installed the return air as well.
> Main thing is you're up and running just in time for winter!


----------



## KC Matt

You're heading the right way just keep at it.  


Possumstomper said:


> Well night 2 was better. Still lots to learn and do to this thing to get it where I want it to be. House was at 65 last night, woke up to 73 this morning with a 28° night. Fired fresh load. About 7pm topped off about 9. Was nice coal bed at 5am this morning.  I lowered fan speed and that really helped with heat consistency. Seemed like my secondary burn times were up as well. Next thing since I'm going into a crawlspace is to insulate my ductwork. I think it can only help.






Possumstomper said:


> Yeah man its only little over 1100sf, couldn't say about insulation I've not had a wall open. Floor is pretty well insulated tho. When I ran the return it seemed like that stuff (fiberglass batt) was a foot thick. It's warmed up a bit today, it was reloaded around noon and five. Unfortunately it's pushing 85 in here now I had to open my registers in my rigged plenum to dump some heat off. I hope it continues to do this well. Still going to insulate my ductwork.  Yes your posts have helped tremendously. Finally finished reading this thread this morning.  My fan controller showed up today so hopefully I can get that going as well as all the other odd and ends.



Operating a wood burning device is a learning curve and no two installations are the same. Just keep pushing forward and you'll have it worked out by the end of the season.


----------



## KC Matt

With 1100 sf and running this furnace at the minimum effective load, your home should be uncomfortably hot.  Keep working at it and when you get it dialed in your problem will be how to run your furnace without having the windows open.  I'm heating 1500sf per floor, two floors and with outside temp at 0 or above keeping the house 72 degrees is effortless.


----------



## Possumstomper

Got a little more done today. Finally got my timer installed, very nice. I'e noticed on a few of the posts in this thread some use a nail to hold their damper door open slightly, well I've been playing with my adjustable setup today and seems to work well on keeping my fire hot, flue warm enough not to create creosote, and keep my burn times high. Been around mid 20 to low 30 all day here. Currently holding at 77 before night reload. Got a new toy today too that so far has been to fun not to test everything with.


----------



## KC Matt

Possumstomper said:


> Got a little more done today. Finally got my timer installed, very nice. I'e noticed on a few of the posts in this thread some use a nail to hold their damper door open slightly, well I've been playing with my adjustable setup today and seems to work well on keeping my fire hot, flue warm enough not to create creosote, and keep my burn times high. Been around mid 20 to low 30 all day here. Currently holding at 77 before night reload. Got a new toy today too that so far has been to fun not to test everything with.



The nail shim shouldn't be beneficial for you because you have the damper control.  That was a crude hack that some of us tried in lieu of the controller.  It actually cripples the stove somewhat since it limits the effectiveness of the secondary burn.  I accidentally unhooked the damper control arm by lifting it just a little too much with a shim.  What are your damper controller settings and where are you drawing the temp for it?

Your return air is very creative.  If at all possible you will want to seal that return air where the starter collar meets the house and where the starter collar meets the ducting.  Yes, insulation would be worthwhile on any of the duct you can access.  So your supply has shared duct and the return is seperate?  I wonder if you have some unintended flow through the unused return air.  Might want to give it the match test.

Before I sealed that little bit of ducting in the pictures, my furnace could barely raise the house temp on a load of fuel and after, it can raise the temp easily and maintain a longer burn. I was baffled last winter by the volume of air pulling around the garage doors and figured it must just be the old crappy doors.  Well guess what?  It was the return air sucking outdoor air into the garage and subsequently into the furnace. 

This stuff is awesome for sealing those odd shaped leaks:


https://www.reddevil.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1557


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## Possumstomper

I haven't gotten around to wiring either controller in yet. As soon as I get more time those are on my list. Creativity is an offspring of being stubborn and mostly cheap. It is a 12 inch flexible duct run out the back of one of my kitchen cabinets,  down through the crawlspace, back up through the vanity in my bathroom and then out the wall into the garage to the stove. It is sealed in the garage to the stove. It is not sealed in the house since all it can draw is inside air. Loaded last night about 10, it's about 9:15 now and still putting heat out. It' a nice 72 in here at the moment. Yes they share duct runs. I tied into the existing trunk in the crawlspace, I lucked out and it was metal so I figured why not. I originally intended to run two totally separate systems of duct but space issues in crawlspace prevented me. (Couldn't get my big butt in there) since that wasn't a possibility it took off main feeds from lp furnace and installed dampers in them to prevent backflow. I' lucky I suppose there to since the existing furnace was downflow everything was accessible. My new toy measured 132° duct Temps last night at the peak of the surge. Not sure on how accurate it is but I like that. Until I get around to the control wiring in I'm gonna rum that screw. I' happy how it performs at the moment


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## Possumstomper

This is the mastic I used to seal I the crawlspace,  I used tape in garage


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## KC Matt

Possumstomper said:


> I haven't gotten around to wiring either controller in yet. As soon as I get more time those are on my list. Creativity is an offspring of being stubborn and mostly cheap. It is a 12 inch flexible duct run out the back of one of my kitchen cabinets,  down through the crawlspace, back up through the vanity in my bathroom and then out the wall into the garage to the stove. It is sealed in the garage to the stove. It is not sealed in the house since all it can draw is inside air. Loaded last night about 10, it's about 9:15 now and still putting heat out. It' a nice 72 in here at the moment. Yes they share duct runs. I tied into the existing trunk in the crawlspace, I lucked out and it was metal so I figured why not. I originally intended to run two totally separate systems of duct but space issues in crawlspace prevented me. (Couldn't get my big butt in there) since that wasn't a possibility it took off main feeds from lp furnace and installed dampers in them to prevent backflow. I' lucky I suppose there to since the existing furnace was downflow everything was accessible. My new toy measured 132° duct Temps last night at the peak of the surge. Not sure on how accurate it is but I like that. Until I get around to the control wiring in I'm gonna rum that screw. I' happy how it performs at the moment



LOL that's dedication!  Good work.



Possumstomper said:


> This is the mastic I used to seal I the crawlspace,  I used tape in garage



Same stuff, different label and in a tub instead of a tube.  You've already avoided the year I wasted struggling with an unfinished install.  Get that damper control in and you'll be off to the races.

This conversation has got me thinking that I should redo the setup on the fan on controller.  Instead of using the normally open side of the relay, I'm going to switch the fan to the normally closed side and run the controller in cooling mode.  That way if everything fails, the fan just comes on and stays on.  Everything else is set to fail to safety and I'm not sure why I didn't think about wiring the fan circuit that way before.

What does the motor do if that fan speed controller fails?


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> This conversation has got me thinking that I should redo the setup on the fan on controller. Instead of using the normally open side of the relay, I'm going to switch the fan to the normally closed side and run the controller in cooling mode. That way if everything fails, the fan just comes on and stays on. Everything else is set to fail to safety and I'm not sure why I didn't think about wiring the fan circuit that way before.


I planned on wiring the high speed leg of the motor to the factory switch setup (well, actually an aftermarket adjustable switch set to a higher temp) so that if the speed controller ever failed the switch would kick the fan on high at some point


----------



## KC Matt

BLW500 said:


> The logs and it's already been claimed. A guy is coming on friday to grab the trees.





brenndatomu said:


> I planned on wiring the high speed leg of the motor to the factory switch setup (well, actually an aftermarket adjustable switch set to a higher temp) so that if the speed controller ever failed the switch would kick the fan on high at some point



What would happen if the high leg called for power while the variable speed controller was also calling for power?  I ask because I don't know.


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## brenndatomu

Yeah I dunno either...but I figure it wouldn't be pretty.  There would be a good gap between the normal operation range and the "over temp, emergency cooling" feature...I suppose anything can malfunction though. It wouldn't be hard to wire in a relay to disconnect power from the speed control if the high temp switch activated...probably a real good idea actually


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> It wouldn't be hard to wire in a relay to disconnect power from the speed control if the high temp switch activated...probably a real good idea actually




funny.  This is the exact thing I'm doing now.  I'm going to have three relays now with the addition of this speed controller.

One uses the snap switch (set at normal temp on) to turn off/on the controller via 24V.

The other I'm using both NO and NC terminals to either power the controller OR the low speed winding on the wood blower motor.  It powers the low speed winding ONLY when the LP furnace runs.  Did this because if the LP furnace runs, it will always be at the end of a burn, which means the the controller will have the wood blower turning very slowly and this causes the LP blower to backfeed the wood blower (the powered damper is open because the low limit (snap switch) is met).  This way when the LP blower kicks in, the wood blower then goes on low speed (not using the speed controller) which is enough to keep that from happening.  Once the LP turns off the speed controller is now back to being active......as long as the low limit is met

The 3rd relay I'm using how you mentioned above.  I have the second snap switch installed, wired and set at a much higher kick on temp.  Just need to finish it.  If the controller ever fails, the second snap will turn on when plenum temps reach that higher temp and then the low speed winding will be powered and continue to cycle at a higher temps of the second snap switch.

I also have a relay to control the powered damper to close when the LP blower is the only one running.


----------



## Possumstomper

Been way to warm here lately to fire the stove.  I'm kinda bummed about that. Hopefully in the next few days I'll be able to wire the controller in. Got to put the plow on the wood hauler and some minor stuff. Just checking in, carry on.


----------



## Possumstomper

Ok like I said I'm terrible with electrical anything.  From the diagrams posted here the best I can figure out on my totaline controller my wiring would be.... Line 1 120 v neutral leg, line 2 120v hot leg which also runs to fan capacitor, motor 2 to fan motor. 24v I'm still trying to figure out, then would I use an adjustable snap disc for my probe input? Totally ignorant on this. I'e read so much im getting confused.


----------



## brenndatomu

If yours is like this...http://dms.hvacpartners.com/docs/1006/Public/06/570-615.pdf
Terminal 2 just gets tied into neutral.
You'd cut into the 120V power wire going to the blower motor and then tie the powered side of it into terminal 3.
Terminal 1 goes to the blower motor on the other end of that wire you just cut.
Terminals 5 and 6 go to a 24V power source...other than the existing one for the Tundra! The Tundras 24V transformer power gets cut off if the high limit switch is ever activated (closing the damper)...nothing like having your blower shut off right when you need it most!
I suppose you could re-wire things so that the damper motor is the only thing that gets cut off by the high limit switch, therefore leaving the transformer powered, but if wiring is not your forte, then better just find a second 24V source (I just used a second transformer...they can be found pretty cheap on fleabay)
The temp sensor goes to the other two terminals on the bottom there. I just taped the sensor to my supply pipe...going inside with it would be too hot and the blower would want to run on high too much...you'll have to play with it to find just the right spot.
FYI, you have sleeve bearings there so don't get down into the ball bearing adjustment range...burn things up maybe. As for the cut out temp, you'll have to play with that too...don't get it set too low...no sense in it anyways, even at 65-70V you are only moving a little air...the blower is very quiet at those speeds!


----------



## Possumstomper

Mine is very similar it's an h not a c


----------



## brenndatomu

Possumstomper said:


> Mine is very similar it's an h not a c


Looks like the wiring is basically the same...


----------



## Possumstomper

Little bit different labeling, but should work the same way. I got this thing used without a temp probe. what would you suggest for a probe? Thermocouple or ?


----------



## brenndatomu

not a TC, it is a type of resistor called a thermistor. It takes a specific one. I'll see if I can find the ones that were on fleabay.


----------



## brenndatomu

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Carrie...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
I think this is the standard sensor like I used. They make a low, standard, and high temp. About 10* difference in the range between each one IIRC. I thought about getting a high temp, but was able to add a 1200 ohm resistor in line on my std. to fake the controller out and make it work in the range I wanted.


----------



## Possumstomper

You Sir are awesome!


----------



## brenndatomu

I just looked it up because I couldn't remember.
The ICM 375 sensor is 50-80F.
The ICM 376 sensor is 70-100F and I think this is the standard one that normally come with the controller. I misspoke before saying I had used the 95-120F one...which will work good too, but mine came with this 70-100F sensor and I made it work by adding the resistor in line...more resistance makes the operating range go up.
The ICM 377 sensor is 95-120F
The ICM 379 sensor is also 70-100F
The Totaline brand stuff we have is the same, just re-branded for Carrier...different part #s. The sensor I linked before is a Totaline P251-0086 sensor, same as the ICM 377 above...


----------



## Possumstomper

Yep would've took me a month to figure out all that


----------



## brenndatomu

Took me 3


----------



## Possumstomper

Getting cold here finally.  Was 61 yesterday tho... got my hillbilly heat dump made up, tested and installed. I'm happy with it for now. Will probably get a legit one when money allows. It may look like it's got a gap, but it is sealed.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Possumstomper said:


> Getting cold here finally.  Was 61 yesterday tho... g



Are you in WI by chance?  Sounds like our weather here, as we hit 60° yesterday but now will be getting down to the lower teens the next handful of nights with a chance of single digits with wind chills near 0.


----------



## Possumstomper

No, I'm in mid north Indiana


----------



## TDD11

Dave, can you link to the 24v power supply you are using? I can't find any data sheet that shows what kind of current the Totaline controller uses. 

I bought the Totaline controller. I have just been mulling over the best setup for it. What if the controller fails, do I have a relay that runs the blower on high?, etc. I have been wondering about the best setups from a safety point of view, but it negates from the K.I.S.S. method.


----------



## JRHAWK9

FWIW, I have a buddy who is an HVAC guy and he says those controllers are pretty reliable.  Having said that, I will be wiring up a relay and a second snap switch (set at a much higher close temp) to re-direct power to the low speed winding on my blower, as a precaution.   I'm also going to be replacing all four of my relays in my setup with RIB2401B's, as I guess they are the most reliable ones around.

https://www.functionaldevices.com/products/building-automation/details/RIB2401B/


----------



## 3fordasho

I have several back ups if things fail -  first and foremost being in a rural area the concern is power failure.  Tundra is run thru a 1000w pure sine inverter charger with transfer switch and a deep cycle marine battery that will run the tundra fan a good 5-6 hours, perhaps more. Plenty of time to cover a full load at least for the hot part of the burn cycle. 

As far as the fan speed controller failing, possible so in my case I attached a spare fan snap switch to the top of the Tundra, spaced it up a bit so it does not trip on at the normal temperatures, wired it to run the propane furnace fan.  Not ideal but it will cool down the Tundra all be it reverse air flow.  (Tundra is installed as a add on to the existing Propane FA furnace, as many are)




JRHAWK9 said:


> FWIW, I have a buddy who is an HVAC guy and he says those controllers are pretty reliable.  Having said that, I will be wiring up a relay and a second snap switch (set at a much higher close temp) to re-direct power to the low speed winding on my blower, as a precaution.   I'm also going to be replacing all four of my relays in my setup with RIB2401B's, as I guess they are the most reliable ones around.
> 
> https://www.functionaldevices.com/products/building-automation/details/RIB2401B/


----------



## JRHAWK9

3fordasho said:


> I have several back ups if things fail -  first and foremost being in a rural area the concern is power failure.  Tundra is run thru a 1000w pure sine inverter charger with transfer switch and a deep cycle marine battery that will run the tundra fan a good 5-6 hours, perhaps more. Plenty of time to cover a full load at least for the hot part of the burn cycle.
> 
> As far as the fan speed controller failing, possible so in my case I attached a spare fan snap switch to the top of the Tundra, spaced it up a bit so it does not trip on at the normal temperatures, wired it to run the propane furnace fan.  Not ideal but it will cool down the Tundra all be it reverse air flow.  (Tundra is installed as a add on to the existing Propane FA furnace, as many are)



We too are in a rural area.  They recently looped our power and put it underground, so it's not too much of a concern anymore.  Before that we were the LAST house on an unlooped dead end above ground service.  We were losing power quite frequently.  The Kuuma is rated for gravity flow, so I have no issues there, as my setup is designed with gravity flow in mind when losing power.  The Kuuma also closes down the primary air completely when losing power. 

I have my LP furnace EAC circuit controlling relays on other aspects of my system (powered damper and also low speed winding on my wood blower in certain situations), so the only time the LP blower should run is when the LP heat or AC is on.  Otherwise my system, as a whole, will not function as designed.  I pretty much have things setup to be fully automatic/seamless between the wood and LP furnaces, both summer and winter.  All dampers and blowers are setup so nothing backfeeds in all situations and, if needed, both furnaces can run at the same time w/o having to manually do anything.  Just turn on the heat/AC and the system relays do the rest.  I'm basically using the LP's EAC circuit and two different snap switches in the wood furnace plenum to control 4 different relays to do what I want things to do at various times.  Also have a whole home April Aire humidifier setup on the wood furnace plenum to run when the wood furnace blower is running and when inside relative humidity drops below a certain level based on outside temps.


----------



## TDD11

Well which one of you wants to come do these upgrades on my stove? I'll buy the beer. Haha! My biggest issue is just finding the time, and balancing a few other projects, not to mention Christmas. The more I think about it the more I'm sure the fan speed controller could help get more heat from the stove.


----------



## Matt78

Been awhile since I checked in. Anyone ever figure how to get more heat out of this thing? My biggest problem is the wood seems to coal up a lot when it gets about 20 degrees out. Is there anything to remedy this?


----------



## Matt78

I have noticed a dirty filter makes a difference in heat output!


----------



## brenndatomu

Matt78 said:


> Anyone ever figure how to get more heat out of this thing?


Max Caddy or HeatPro...


Matt78 said:


> My biggest problem is the wood seems to coal up a lot when it gets about 20 degrees out.


That must be about where your heat load matches Tundras max output...
Good reminder on the dirty air filter


----------



## laynes69

Insulation and airsealing! I cannot stress it enough. We struggled for years, now it's not an issue. We have a Caddy, but currently there's a small coalbed and it's 75 in the house. It's 16 and dropping with chills in the single digits.


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> Insulation and airsealing! I cannot stress it enough. We struggled for years, now it's not an issue. We have a Caddy, but currently there's a small coalbed and it's 75 in the house. It's 16 and dropping with chills in the single digits.



Out of curiosity, did you notice any difference in being able to keep your house humidified after sealing things up and insulating?  We currently have TWO whole home humidifiers going and are putting 6-9 gallons of water a day into the air to keep it around the 40% RH.  The colder it is outside the more water we put in the air.  If RH drops below a certain level the humidistat will kick in the April Aire, but I don't like to run it if I don't have to as it cools down my supply temps some.  This is why I prefer to use the stand alone humidifiers.


----------



## Matt78

brenndatomu said:


> Max Caddy or HeatPro...
> Tundra


----------



## Matt78

laynes69 said:


> Insulation and airsealing! I cannot stress it enough. We struggled for years, now it's not an issue. We have a Caddy, but currently there's a small coalbed and it's 75 in the house. It's 16 and dropping with chills in the single digits.



It's on the hunny do list!


----------



## brenndatomu

I meant as a way to get more heat...Max Caddy or HeatPro...
Bad joke I guess...


----------



## Matt78

brenndatomu said:


> I meant as a way to get more heat...Max Caddy or HeatPro...
> Bad joke I guess...



You'll have to excuse me...I'm a little slow!


----------



## DoubleB

Matt78 said:


> Anyone ever figure how to get more heat out of this thing? My biggest problem is the wood seems to coal up a lot when it gets about 20 degrees out.



Can you elaborate on what "more heat" means for you?  (Does that mean longer between refills, your house is too cold in the morning, the coal stage doesn't make much heat, etc.?)  The answer could be very different depending upon what you seek.

If you have too much coals, open the damper and throw a small split in the firebox.  The split will kick out good heat for the hour that the coals burn down.

If your house is too cold in the morning, use a tstat to open the damper once the house cools down; warm up the house higher the night before; use denser and drier firewood, or just don't sleep so long.


----------



## Matt78

DoubleB said:


> Can you elaborate on what "more heat" means for you?  (Does that mean longer between refills, your house is too cold in the morning, the coal stage doesn't make much heat, etc.?)  The answer could be very different depending upon what you seek.



Just meant in general.I think bren was doing some. I was actually thinking about welding fins on to the outside of the heat tubes. Fins get hot air blows over them and boom more heat. Just my mind working.


----------



## Matt78

DoubleB said:


> If you have too much coals, open the damper and throw a small split in the firebox.  The split will kick out good heat for the hour that the coals burn down.



I actually do this a lot. It does work well


----------



## 3fordasho

Matt78 said:


> Just meant in general.I think bren was doing some. I was actually thinking about welding fins on to the outside of the heat tubes. Fins get hot air blows over them and boom more heat. Just my mind working.




During shoulder season I find more build up in the heat exchanger tubes and am finding cleaning them every two weeks helps with furnace output.  The supplied cleaning tool is OK but find the Sooteater to not only be quicker but also do a better job.   A few minutes with the sooteater and vacuum and done.


----------



## NaturalCauses

I'm trying to get a flue temp controller wired up to my Caddy furnace, and for the life of me can't seem to get it figured out. I bought the Omega CN418v-r1-r2 controller that 3fordasho used in his original posts. I configured it per the manual and the settings that he shared early in this thread, but there isn't any voltage being supplied through either the output or alarm terminals when measured on my multi-meter. The LED's are lit on the front saying that they should be giving power. Has anyone that uses this controller experienced this?


----------



## Matt78

3fordasho said:


> During shoulder season I find more build up in the heat exchanger tubes and am finding cleaning them every two weeks helps with furnace output.  The supplied cleaning tool is OK but find the Sooteater to not only be quicker but also do a better job.   A few minutes with the sooteater and vacuum and done.



I notice the same. I also use the sooteater, but replaced the red plastic whips with metal cable. Works really well.


----------



## Matt78

NaturalCauses said:


> I'm trying to get a flue temp controller wired up to my Caddy furnace, and for the life of me can't seem to get it figured out. I bought the Omega CN418v-r1-r2 controller that 3fordasho used in his original posts. I configured it per the manual and the settings that he shared early in this thread, but there isn't any voltage being supplied through either the output or alarm terminals when measured on my multi-meter. The LED's are lit on the front saying that they should be giving power. Has anyone that uses this controller experienced this?



I use the same as what 3fordasho made. Haven't noticed anything like that. Maybe your controller is bad?


----------



## NaturalCauses

Matt78 said:


> I use the same as what 3fordasho made. Haven't noticed anything like that. Maybe your controller is bad?


I'm starting to wonder the same thing. I'm writing an email to their support detailing my setup, and we'll see what they have to say. Hopefully I'm just missing something small.


----------



## 3fordasho

NaturalCauses said:


> I'm starting to wonder the same thing. I'm writing an email to their support detailing my setup, and we'll see what they have to say. Hopefully I'm just missing something small.



The output and alarm are just relay contacts, disconnect wiring to those terminals, with power off  you should have continuity between the common and normally closed terminals (0 ohms on ohm meter) then power the unit up, adjust your set points so you get the output indicators (LEDs) on and then check for 0 ohms between the common and normally open terminals.   If this checks out it's probably your wiring or maybe a setting - I don't recall if a setting could cause this malfunction or not.


----------



## NaturalCauses

3fordasho said:


> The output and alarm are just relay contacts, disconnect wiring to those terminals, with power off  you should have continuity between the common and normally closed terminals (0 ohms on ohm meter) then power the unit up, adjust your set points so you get the output indicators (LEDs) on and then check for 0 ohms between the common and normally open terminals.   If this checks out it's probably your wiring or maybe a setting - I don't recall if a setting could cause this malfunction or not.



Wow, I feel like an idiot. That was it exactly. For some reason I thought I had to run _both_ wires from the transformer to the controller, not just the hot leg... Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways! Guess I should just stick to software development (my day job)


----------



## Matt78

laynes69 said:


> Insulation and airsealing! I cannot stress it enough. We struggled for years, now it's not an issue. We have a Caddy, but currently there's a small coalbed and it's 75 in the house. It's 16 and dropping with chills in the single digits.



Got that energy audit scheduled! Thanks for the motivation!


----------



## laynes69

Matt78 said:


> Got that energy audit scheduled! Thanks for the motivation!


Best thing you can do!


----------



## JRHAWK9

JRHAWK9 said:


> Out of curiosity, did you notice any difference in being able to keep your house humidified after sealing things up and insulating?  We currently have TWO whole home humidifiers going and are putting 6-9 gallons of water a day into the air to keep it around the 40% RH.  The colder it is outside the more water we put in the air.  If RH drops below a certain level the humidistat will kick in the April Aire, but I don't like to run it if I don't have to as it cools down my supply temps some.  This is why I prefer to use the stand alone humidifiers.



@laynes69


----------



## laynes69

Yep, while we are still drafty in areas of the home, there's been a huge difference. We used to put gallons of water into the air, now we don't use a humidifier. It's 15 degrees out, 75 in the house and our humidity levels are at 30 percent now.


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> Yep, while we are still drafty in areas of the home, there's been a huge difference. We used to put gallons of water into the air, now we don't use a humidifier. It's 15 degrees out, 75 in the house and our humidity levels are at 30 percent now.



that would be nice.  Yesterday I literally put ~14 gallons in the house.....lol  It's staying right at 40% though.


----------



## DoubleB

FYI, it requires about 4700 Btu/hr every hour of the entire day to evaporate 14 gal.  I'm sure you know that's a significant portion of the heat your Kuuma makes, especially this time of year which isn't the dead of winter yet.  

(But maybe that's ok, since you have 10 yrs of firewood drying).


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> that would be nice.  Yesterday I literally put ~14 gallons in the house.....lol  It's staying right at 40% though.


Wow, no kidding?! Seems like a lot. We don't use a humidifier at all and can maintain 40% normally. I do have the electric dryer vented to the basement in the winter though...heat and humidity, win win!


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> FYI, it requires about 4700 Btu/hr every hour of the entire day to evaporate 14 gal.  I'm sure you know that's a significant portion of the heat your Kuuma makes, especially this time of year which isn't the dead of winter yet.
> 
> (But maybe that's ok, since you have 10 yrs of firewood drying).



damn......I don't seem to notice it when I use the separate home console ones.  I do see a noticeable decrease in supply temps when I kick on the April Aire though, which is attached to the wood furnace plenum.  I think a few degrees IIRC.



brenndatomu said:


> Wow, no kidding?! Seems like a lot. We don't use a humidifier at all and can maintain 40% normally. I do have the electric dryer vented to the basement in the winter though...heat and humidity, win win!



you are not kidding....it IS a lot!  LOL  I have TWO of -THESE- running 24/7.  They are both on medium during the day and then one gets put on high when we sleep.  When it gets real cold out I will put both on high when we sleep (we both sleep to a fan, so the noise is our sleep aide).  I have been basically refilling three of the 2.5 gallon tanks twice a day, once when I get home from work and once in the morning.  I was on a mission this year to keep humidity in the house throughout the year.  The photo below was taken last year about this time, notice the humidity level.  I just had one of them running at that time.  This year I'm not messing around....lol     

I could do the drier vent trick too, however we wouldn't be around for long (LP dryer)  ;-) 






My April Aire is set to come on if humidly levels drop below the levels listed below on #5 (35%)


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> FYI, it requires about 4700 Btu/hr every hour of the entire day to evaporate 14 gal.



I just did the math myself, and I got the same thing (well 4,694 to be exact).  I never thought I would be using latent heat outside of a school setting!  lol


----------



## 3fordasho

JRHAWK9 said:


> that would be nice.  Yesterday I literally put ~14 gallons in the house.....lol  It's staying right at 40% though.




I would be concerned pumping 14 gallons a day into my old house that's for sure, it would be collecting as frost on windows, inside walls, all kinds of places you don't want it especially when outside temps warm up and it all melts.  Hope your vapor barriers are in good shape. ( I suspect if they were, you would not need 14 gallons a day).


----------



## JRHAWK9

3fordasho said:


> I would be concerned pumping 14 gallons a day into my old house that's for sure, it would be collecting as frost on windows, inside walls, all kinds of places you don't want it especially when outside temps warm up and it all melts.  Hope your vapor barriers are in good shape. ( I suspect if they were, you would not need 14 gallons a day).



What vapor barriers?  Believe it or not, house was built in 2000 and has NO vapor barrier.    Don't ask me why.  I couldn't believe it either.

We don't get any water buildup anywhere I can see, except for in the bathroom windows after taking a shower, but that evaporates quickly.  Never seen any water buildup on any of the other windows.

Last night after work I filled ALL four 2.5 gallon containers (after they were just filled in the morning).  This morning I filled two of them but the other two were partially gone, but should be enough to make it till I get home today.

Maybe I shouldn't be putting so much water in the air, but if I don't our skin gets dry and itchy and the cats get zapped when trying to pet them.   It's not like I'm trying to keep it 60% RH or something.  I don't see anything wrong with keeping humidity levels 35-40% in the winter, depending on how cold it is outside.

For the record, it's a log cabin A frame style house with loft.  I'm heating ~3,200SF (30,000CF in volume) in total, including the basement.  We have both humidifiers in the loft near the edge, so they are both in the center of the house in the complete open and seeing they are in the loft at the edge they are able to blow up and disperse throughout the house nicely.
It's my opinion the house was just not tightly constructed and the warm/humidified air is escaping and it's being replaced with cool/dry air.  The rate at which this happens depends on the delta between inside and outside temps.  There are numerous places where one can feel cold air entering near the tops of the vertical walls where it meets the "A frame"......all around.  There are literally marks on the painted walls from this air passing over these spots over time (see photos below).  The front closet is also un-insulated and cold as hell in the winter.  The two short false walls in the loft are also cold to the touch.  Sorry, I'm just venting...lol  Just irritates me.  House was built by my GF and her ex along with a group of their friends back when they were young.  Proper insulation was the furthest thing from their young minds and neither of them are detailed orientated people.  He was a concrete contractor, that should tell you something.....lol  They did use those styrofoam-like forms though when pouring the basement walls, so those are well insulated.


EDIT:  Added photos of "air stains".  Hard to se in the photos, but those darker areas are not shadows.


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> I don't see anything wrong with keeping humidity levels 35-40% in the winter, depending on how cold it is outside.



If I remember how to use my psychrometric chart, indoor air at 68F and 40% humidity will condense to water within the parts of your walls that are 43F or cooler.  Not saying you shouldn't humidify, but just for reference.


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> If I remember how to use my psychrometric chart, indoor air at 68F and 40% humidity will condense to water within the parts of your walls that are 43F or cooler.  Not saying you shouldn't humidify, but just for reference.



So, what you're trying to tell me is I should have drains put at the bottoms of my walls?   

Man, are you a Mechanical Engineer?  You are bringing back some memories of Thermodynamics classes I took back in college in which I remember NOTHING of.


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> So, what you're trying to tell me is I should have drains put at the bottoms of my walls?



Well, you might get lucky if your house is so drafty that the air escapes to the outside faster than it can cool down to 43F!  

Actually, yes I am a mechanical engineer.    Thermo was one of my faves, although I haven't used it in ages.


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> Well, you might get lucky if your house is so drafty that the air escapes to the outside faster than it can cool down to 43F!
> 
> Actually, yes I am a mechanical engineer.    Thermo was one of my faves, although I haven't used it in ages.



Maybe I should let up a bit on the amount of water and see how things are at 30% RH.  It's just so comfortable in here when there's normal humidity.  Makes it feel warmer compared to the same temp at lower humidity. 

I have a BS in Civil Engineering and also took Thermo.  I actually enjoyed it too and did rather well in that class but I just don't remember much of it, unfortunately.  Where did you go to school?  I went to UW-Milwaukee.  Graduated in Dec of '97.


----------



## DoubleB

Sounds like I'm playing catch-up to you, I graduated 1998.  Purdue University.  I took a couple civil courses, including a mechanics of materials.  That was really enjoyable too.  I've actually used von Mises stress a number of times since then.


----------



## smw

New guy here so I'd like to say hello and thank you for this forum. First off let me start by telling you all that I bought my Tundra in June of 2015 so this is my 3rd season of running it and I have been thoroughly disappointed in the unit. I have grown up with y family burning wood but never really did it myself until now. My unit is serial number 1525, I don't know if that's good or bad but I contacted SBI for any update kits so I don't know if or what I will get.

I have my unit set up going into my heat ducts that my propane furnace uses, I have spring dampers on my 8" ducts coming off the wood furnace and I am having a anti backdraft damper installed this week in my propane furnace. I have my tundra hook up to a thermostat next to the propane one and I am happy with the damper door closes on the tundra. I have a 7" clay chimney good draft of -.06 to -.04 when my bd is set up but my flue temps via a laser temp gun measure 120-150, I've had 185 once. I closed completely closed the bd and my draft is off the charts. I have temps of between 70-90 degrees coming out of the 8" ducts that I have set up using the left and right outlets. My blower is set on 3, I've tried every setting and it doesn't seem to make any difference. I get very little secondary burn and I am using 1 1/2 - 2 year seasoned oak, ash and a very small amount of various soft woods. My static pressure in the heat outlet tubes are .15-.2 so I know that needs to be bumped up some. I am also adding a cold air make up from outside to see if that helps at all.

I have a 2000 sq ft house and I leave my basement door open and also cut a hole in a cold air return duct  from up stairs to help pull more air down stairs. I was really happy when I read up and purchased this furnace because of the features but it has done nothing but let me down. It maintains heat the house rather than heat it. I figure if I don't get it figured out this year I may move on to something else.


----------



## brenndatomu

smw said:


> New guy here so I'd like to say hello and thank you for this forum. First off let me start by telling you all that I bought my Tundra in June of 2015 so this is my 3rd season of running it and I have been thoroughly disappointed in the unit. I have grown up with y family burning wood but never really did it myself until now. My unit is serial number 1525, I don't know if that's good or bad but I contacted SBI for any update kits so I don't know if or what I will get.
> 
> I have my unit set up going into my heat ducts that my propane furnace uses, I have spring dampers on my 8" ducts coming off the wood furnace and I am having a anti backdraft damper installed this week in my propane furnace. I have my tundra hook up to a thermostat next to the propane one and I am happy with the damper door closes on the tundra. I have a 7" clay chimney good draft of -.06 to -.04 when my bd is set up but my flue temps via a laser temp gun measure 120-150, I've had 185 once. I closed completely closed the bd and my draft is off the charts. I have temps of between 70-90 degrees coming out of the 8" ducts that I have set up using the left and right outlets. My blower is set on 3, I've tried every setting and it doesn't seem to make any difference. I get very little secondary burn and I am using 1 1/2 - 2 year seasoned oak, ash and a very small amount of various soft woods. My static pressure in the heat outlet tubes are .15-.2 so I know that needs to be bumped up some. I am also adding a cold air make up from outside to see if that helps at all.
> 
> I have a 2000 sq ft house and I leave my basement door open and also cut a hole in a cold air return duct  from up stairs to help pull more air down stairs. I was really happy when I read up and purchased this furnace because of the features but it has done nothing but let me down. It maintains heat the house rather than heat it. I figure if I don't get it figured out this year I may move on to something else.


Howdy SMW! 
That pipe temp is external so that is probably about right, 150-175* is where mine runs, sometimes up to 200...which equates to about double that on the internal temp.
1.5 -2 year Oak probably won't burn real well...about the slowest drying wood there is. 3 yrs CSS works a lot better. I'd run the blower on speed 1 to try and get some temp rise through the furnace.
Until you can sustain long term secondary burn you will not get a ton of heat off 'er...they love their wood dry dry dry!
Throw a couple ECO bricks on top of your usual load, see what that does. Some kiln dried lumber scraps in place of the ECO bricks can work too...


----------



## 3fordasho

smw said:


> New guy here so I'd like to say hello and thank you for this forum. First off let me start by telling you all that I bought my Tundra in June of 2015 so this is my 3rd season of running it and I have been thoroughly disappointed in the unit. I have grown up with y family burning wood but never really did it myself until now. My unit is serial number 1525, I don't know if that's good or bad but I contacted SBI for any update kits so I don't know if or what I will get.
> 
> I have my unit set up going into my heat ducts that my propane furnace uses, I have spring dampers on my 8" ducts coming off the wood furnace and I am having a anti backdraft damper installed this week in my propane furnace. I have my tundra hook up to a thermostat next to the propane one and I am happy with the damper door closes on the tundra. I have a 7" clay chimney good draft of -.06 to -.04 when my bd is set up but my flue temps via a laser temp gun measure 120-150, I've had 185 once. I closed completely closed the bd and my draft is off the charts. I have temps of between 70-90 degrees coming out of the 8" ducts that I have set up using the left and right outlets. My blower is set on 3, I've tried every setting and it doesn't seem to make any difference. I get very little secondary burn and I am using 1 1/2 - 2 year seasoned oak, ash and a very small amount of various soft woods. My static pressure in the heat outlet tubes are .15-.2 so I know that needs to be bumped up some. I am also adding a cold air make up from outside to see if that helps at all.
> 
> I have a 2000 sq ft house and I leave my basement door open and also cut a hole in a cold air return duct  from up stairs to help pull more air down stairs. I was really happy when I read up and purchased this furnace because of the features but it has done nothing but let me down. It maintains heat the house rather than heat it. I figure if I don't get it figured out this year I may move on to something else.




Ditto to what Brenndatomu said.  You are in Wisconsin correct?  Gotta have a Menards near by, pick up a couple packs of these:
https://www.menards.com/main/heatin...49-c-6855.htm?tid=-4035453073623230604&ipos=5
and see how it performs on a load of 6 - 10 of these blocks.  I mix in a few on those especially cold nights, I've yet to try a full load of the bricks but will try it at some point.  All these EPA burners need consistently dry wood. 20% moisture content OK, 15% even better.

Your comment about very little secondary burn screams wet wood issue #1, maybe draft issue #2.

FWIW I'm heating 3400 sq ft in MN with a Tundra, and yes it can be tough or near impossible to raise temps more than a degree or two if I let things drop off too much. In those cases I run the propane for 5 minutes and let the Tundra maintain over the next 8 hrs.


----------



## smw

I will definitely try those bricks. I have been measuring my wood and I want to say that it’s at 11% ish but I will check again when I get home. What draft issue are you thinking because my chimney draft is good according to my meter. I will slow the fan down also, I haven’t burned in it for 2 days so it’s a good time to work on the thing.


----------



## brenndatomu

smw said:


> I have been measuring my wood and I want to say that it’s at 11% ish but I will check again


11%?! Where do you live? 11% is all but impossible unless kiln dried or you live in the desert.
How do you test? It needs to be on a room temp split, that has been *re-split*, and tested with pins parallel with the grain, in the middle of the split.


----------



## 3fordasho

smw said:


> I will definitely try those bricks. I have been measuring my wood and I want to say that it’s at 11% ish but I will check again when I get home. What draft issue are you thinking because my chimney draft is good according to my meter. I will slow the fan down also, I haven’t burned in it for 2 days so it’s a good time to work on the thing.




Be sure to check the moisture content on a freshly split face, and a better measurement will be had with the piece warmed up to room temp.

We'll suspend draft talk until after we hear the results from the ECO brick test, very possibly not a draft issue but I brought it up because secondary burn action is also dependent on adequate draft.  I've noticed secondary burn on my set up is harder to maintain as outside temps rise above 30F even with no BD (that tend to leak a bit even when closed), all double wall connector pipe to 18' of  6" class A insulated chimney pipe.


----------



## DoubleB

Welcome @smw !
I agree with @brenndatomu and @3fordasho , wet wood sounds like your culprit, even though at first it might tell you it's dry.  You could also try throwing some dimensional lumber (but not treated) to see if you can get good secondary action and good heat.  If you do, then your cordwood is wet.

Also, have you cleaned out your HX tubes, and made sure the connector pipe between your furnace and baro damper is cleaned?  When I first started I had some wet wood and got a lot of buildup on the ID of the single-wall connector pipe, which meant that even when the draft at my baro was -0.05", it was much lower (0.03 ish) at the furnace so I couldn't get good secondary burn.  If this is occurring, you might not even get good secondary burn with dry wood during your upcoming tests.


----------



## smw

I’ve been measuring without respiltting, I just resplit a piece and it’s 19%. The piece was in my basement so it’s about 60 degrees. I want to thank you guys for the replies and help. I won’t be having a fire again until Friday so that’s when I will try those bricks


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Howdy SMW!
> That pipe temp is external so that is probably about right, 150-175* is where mine runs, sometimes up to 200...which equates to about double that on the internal temp.
> 1.5 -2 year Oak probably won't burn real well...about the slowest drying wood there is. 3 yrs CSS works a lot better. *I'd run the blower on speed 1 to try and get some temp rise through the furnace.*
> Until you can sustain long term secondary burn you will not get a ton of heat off 'er...they love their wood dry dry dry!
> Throw a couple ECO bricks on top of your usual load, see what that does. Some kiln dried lumber scraps in place of the ECO bricks can work too...


Lets see what your guys thoughts are. If my flue temps are below 200° than my blower is running on/off and I'm really not heating the house, maybe barely sustaining temperature depending on the outside temperature. I intend to - but have not yet - installed my variable speed fan controller. I just cleaned my HX tubes.

I have my blower wired on the #2 setting. I guess I need to measure my plenum temps and see what you guys think, maybe I should drop it down to the #1 setting and see how it performs.

I also only have 1-2 year old CSS ash, but it was not always covered from precipitation. And it was stacked under pine trees so it didn't get much sun. All of the wood I have been processing lately, now gets stacked in a new location in the middle of the yard with plenty of direct sunlight & wind, but I won't get into burning any of it until next winter at the earliest.

EDIT: I thought you were saying internal flue temps of 200. I still wonder if #1 speed is worth a try.


----------



## DoubleB

TDD11 said:


> my blower is running on/off and I'm really not heating the house



That's what I get too.  

The first 2-3 hours of the burn, plenum temps 130-140+F, blower always on will increase my house temp.
After that, secondary burn dies out, mostly coals, 100-120F, blower on less than half time, that's ~1/4 as much heat.  Doesn't increase house temp but will maintain house temps 3-8 hours depending upon outdoor temp and wind.


----------



## smw

What I have been doing the last 2 seasons with my Tundra is getting the house to 68 with my propane and then maintaining the heat with the Tundra. I'm goin to make a fire tomorrow and try those wood bricks and see what I get, I'm weird about having a fire going when nobody is home. I also cleaned out my heat exchangers and the pipe going to the chimney, I clean my heat exchangers every other week because its easy lol.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> If my flue temps are below 200° than my blower is running on/off and I'm really not heating the house, maybe barely sustaining temperature depending on the outside temperature. I intend to - but have not yet - installed my variable speed fan controller. I just cleaned my HX tubes.


That's why the temp controller works so well, you can wire the blower to a higher speed to take advantage of the higher temps early on in the burn, but then it still will slow down and run non stop (until the VERY end) at a lower speed, stripping heat from the flue gasses instead cycling on/off/on/off, and "waiting" on the snap switch to turn the blower back on wasting heat up the flue in the meantime...you get *a lot more* blower run time with a speed controller...and more heat to the house.
But if you have wet wood and are not getting sustained secondary burn, then that needs to be dealt with first.


----------



## 3fordasho

smw said:


> What I have been doing the last 2 seasons with my Tundra is getting the house to 68 with my propane and then maintaining the heat with the Tundra. I'm goin to make a fire tomorrow and try those wood bricks and see what I get, I'm weird about having a fire going when nobody is home. I also cleaned out my heat exchangers and the pipe going to the chimney, I clean my heat exchangers every other week because its easy lol.




how often are you starting a fire in a cold furnace? (no coals)  Every day?   I put a match to mine about a month ago and have not needed another.
Full load at 5:30 am, go to work, 3/4 load at 4pm and another full load at 10pm.  Rinse and repeat every day.  That cold start load never has as good of secondary burn as a reload on a bed of hot coals.


----------



## smw

3fordasho said:


> how often are you starting a fire in a cold furnace? (no coals)  Every day?   I put a match to mine about a month ago and have not needed another.
> Full load at 5:30 am, go to work, 3/4 load at 4pm and another full load at 10pm.  Rinse and repeat every day.  That cold start load never has as good of secondary burn as a reload on a bed of hot coals.



During the weekdays I rake the coals in the moring and go to work. After work I light a new fire if there aren’t any hot coals left, weekends I rake the coals in the moring and throw wood on the hot coals. I burn my wood furnace on the weekends and about 3-4 days on the week days. I’m nervous about a fire going when we aren’t home which is goofy I know.


----------



## Matt78

Is the kuuma vapor fire as good as described? Maybe not the right place to ask this question, I guess just wanting your opinions.


----------



## 3fordasho

smw said:


> During the weekdays I rake the coals in the moring and go to work. After work I light a new fire if there aren’t any hot coals left, weekends I rake the coals in the moring and throw wood on the hot coals. I burn my wood furnace on the weekends and about 3-4 days on the week days. I’m nervous about a fire going when we aren’t home which is goofy I know.



And in the interest of full disclosure if you've read this entire thread you'll find that many of use have added a temperature control that monitors flue temps and opens/closes the air inlet to both keep the burn hot enough to maintain adequate flue temps and also prevent an overfire situation in case the thermostat calls for heat for too long or someone inadvertently leaves the air inlet switch in the open position. Then there is the timer mod for cold starts and reloads, and the variable speed blower motor control... probably more to come.  Yes the furnace is not ideal as factory supplied....


----------



## 3fordasho

Matt78 said:


> Is the kuuma vapor fire as good as described? Maybe not the right place to ask this question, I guess just wanting your opinions.




Have not heard of any disappointed owners.  It comes with a variable air inlet control based on furnace output that some of us Tundra owners sort of try to emulate.


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## Matt78

I'm gonna upgrade one of these years. I'll put the tundra out in the shop. Which I believe the tundra will do a good job of heating. With all the radiant heat it puts out the glass. I like the tundra don't get me wrong. it's so easy to run with the temp control, but it sure can be a fussy little botch!!


----------



## smw

3fordasho said:


> And in the interest of full disclosure if you've read this entire thread you'll find that many of use have added a temperature control that monitors flue temps and opens/closes the air inlet to both keep the burn hot enough to maintain adequate flue temps and also prevent an overfire situation in case the thermostat calls for heat for too long or someone inadvertently leaves the air inlet switch in the open position. Then there is the timer mod for cold starts and reloads, and the variable speed blower motor control... probably more to come.  Yes the furnace is not ideal as factory supplied....



I have seen on this forum where you guys have added controllers for the fan and damper, I have to look thru the posts again to find exactly what controllers were used and how they are wired in, I told SBI that I shouldn’t have to do all that but if it makes these Tundras work better and you guys seem to be a lot happier after it’s done then I guess I’m on board doing it


----------



## JRHAWK9

smw said:


> I have seen on this forum where you guys have added controllers for the fan and damper, I have to look thru the posts again to find exactly what controllers were used and how they are wired in, I told SBI that I shouldn’t have to do all that but if it makes these Tundras work better and you guys seem to be a lot happier after it’s done then I guess I’m on board doing it



It's not just the Tundra's which work better with a variable speed blower controller, pretty much ALL solid fuel burning furnaces can benefit from one.  Your fossil fuel furnace's blower is setup with a certain heat rise, meaning the delta between return air and supply air.  The larger this heat rise the more efficient the heat transfer will be, as long as it stays within the specs found on the data tag.  When your fossil fuel furnace runs, it's pretty much putting out the same BTU's over the timeframe it's running.  So one blower speed works fine for that.  Our wood burning furnaces don't, they ramp up and down over the course of a burn cycle.  So at the very beginning (cold light) and end of the burn cycle you will have a very small heat rise with a static rpm blower and it will be cycling off/on with very inconsistent and dropping supply temps.  Adding a variable speed controller will increase this heat rise by varying blower speed based on heat output and will keep the blower running MUCH longer at the end of the burn with consistent supply temps.  This will increase delivered efficiency towards the end of the burn cycle. 

I added one to my Kuuma last winter and it DID make a difference, especially at the end of the burn cycle.


----------



## 3fordasho

smw said:


> I have seen on this forum where you guys have added controllers for the fan and damper, I have to look thru the posts again to find exactly what controllers were used and how they are wired in, I told SBI that I shouldn’t have to do all that but if it makes these Tundras work better and you guys seem to be a lot happier after it’s done then I guess I’m on board doing it




The factory controls are rudimentary at best. Yes there is a high limit, but things get pretty hot before that trips, (see cracked metal around the loading door) and it's pretty easy to have a smoldering fire and the damper will never open unless the thermostat calls for heat.  A few of my first fires with factory controls actually had water dripping out the bottom of the flue connection.  Also in my case (too large a house for furnace) the thermostat would probably never be satisfied resulting in the air inlet being open the entire time, very hot furnace tripping the high limit multiple times and lots of cracks around the loading door.

 Other modifications are for convenience - the timer allows you to throw a load of wood in, set the timer and leave. Otherwise you have to use the manual switch and stick around until the new load is charred adequately and then manually turn it off.

The flue temp control does two things, first a safety feature - the set point is set up to close the air inlet at the highest point you want to see your flue temps.  In my case that is 625F.  So when the thermostat calls for heat for an extended period, or the timer is set too long, or the factory air inlet switch is accidently left on, the temp control shuts it down at 625F.  The factory limit switch is still there and functional as a back up.

The second thing it does is open the air inlet if flue temps drop too low, in my case that is 275F. So say you start a new load of questionable wood (slightly wet) and think you got it charred enough so it will continue with secondary burn, but if flames out and just sits there and smolders - now you have little heat and are making creosote in the chimney, now is when the temp controls opens the air inlet and gets things in a proper temp range again.   It also does great at burning down coals at the end of the burn cycle.

The blower speed control helps get more heat out of a load by ending the on/off cycling that lets heat go up the flue during the off part of the cycle.


----------



## Matt78

3fordasho said:


> The factory controls are rudimentary at best. Yes there is a high limit, but things get pretty hot before that trips, (see cracked metal around the loading door) and it's pretty easy to have a smoldering fire and the damper will never open unless the thermostat calls for heat.  A few of my first fires with factory controls actually had water dripping out the bottom of the flue connection.  Also in my case (to large a house for furnace) the thermostat would probable never be satisfied resulting in the air inlet being open the entire time, very hot furnace tripping the high limit multiple times and lots of cracks around the loading door.
> 
> Other modifications are for convenience - the timer allows you to throw a load of wood in, set the timer and leave. Otherwise you have to use the manual switch and stick around until the new load is charred adequately and then manually turn it off.
> 
> The flue temp control does two things, first a safety feature - the set point is set up to close the air inlet at the highest point you want to see your flue temps.  In my case that is 625F.  So when the thermostat calls for heat for an extended period, or the timer is set to long, or the factory air inlet switch is accidently left on, the temp control shuts it down at 625F.  The factory limit switch is still there and functional as a back up.
> 
> The second thing it does is open the air inlet if flue temps drop too low, in my case that is 275F. So say you start a new load of questionable wood (slightly wet) and think you got it charred enough so it will continue with secondary burn, but if flames out and just sits there and smolders - now you have little heat and are making creosote in the chimney, now is when the temp controls opens the air inlet and gets things in a proper temp range again.   It also does great at burning down coals at the end of the burn cycle.
> 
> The blower speed control helps get more heat out of a load by ending the on/off cycling that lets heat go up the flue during the off part of the cycle.



As Ron Popeil said "set it and forget it" I wouldn't want to run furnace without the temp control


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> It's not just the Tundra's which work better with a variable speed blower controller, pretty much ALL solid fuel burning furnaces can benefit from one.


AMEN BROTHAH HAWK!


----------



## smw

Well its seems that I will definitely look in to getting my stove to the "set it and forget it" spot lol, I like that!! I seen on @3fordasho post I believe he used an Omega temp controller and a Mcmaster thermocouple and I have been looking for those or if there is an equivalent. I got my anti back draft damper installed in the propane furnace yesterday and I am going to burn those bricks from Menards today and see how everything goes. I also plan on doing my fresh air intake from a window tomorrow or Monday and I also have to get my static pressure up. Right now I'm about .15, the manual says .2 and the guy at SBI said anywhere from .2-.5 but if I could get it to .4 it would be perfect. I have googled how to change static pressure but can't really find an answer.  I have my stove going into my duct work that the propane furnace uses, I didn't go into the plenum, I went into 2 separate locations in the duct work itself with 8" pipes. I have my cold air using the air from the basement and we also leave the basement door open. I again want to thank everyone in here for their help and all the knowledge that is in here!! I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!!


----------



## brenndatomu

smw said:


> Well its seems that I will definitely look in to getting my stove to the "set it and forget it" spot lol, I like that!! I seen on @3fordasho post I believe he used an Omega temp controller and a Mcmaster thermocouple and I have been looking for those or if there is an equivalent. I got my anti back draft damper installed in the propane furnace yesterday and I am going to burn those bricks from Menards today and see how everything goes. I also plan on doing my fresh air intake from a window tomorrow or Monday and I also have to get my static pressure up. Right now I'm about .15, the manual says .2 and the guy at SBI said anywhere from .2-.5 but if I could get it to .4 it would be perfect. I have googled how to change static pressure but can't really find an answer.  I have my stove going into my duct work that the propane furnace uses, I didn't go into the plenum, I went into 2 separate locations in the duct work itself with 8" pipes. I have my cold air using the air from the basement and we also leave the basement door open. I again want to thank everyone in here for their help and all the knowledge that is in here!! I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas!!


Everything you want to know is in this thread somewhere's.
Static pressure is just backpressure on the blower. I wouldn't worry about it too much...I pay more attention to temp rise through the furnace...get the most temp rise you can and still move the heat to the house, without the blower cycling off/on too much...and you can just about ignore SP and temp rise once you put a speed controller on...it will just hold the blower speed to maintain its target temp...works perfect.
Many of us are using Mypin brand temp controllers, with good success as far as I know...and I have some random generic TC that fit the bill for me.


----------



## Highbeam

It’s discouraging for those of us that might want to move to a furnace to think that we have to become parts chasing electrical engineers just to get these furnaces to function safely and efficiently. It’s not a cost issue if even the kuumas need these upgrades.


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## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> It’s not a cost issue if even the kuumas need these upgrades.


I don't know that the Kuuma _needs_ this upgrade, but for someone like @JRHAWK9  that is heating a house that is approaching the capabilities of the VF100, the blower speed controller just adds a bit more output and efficiency.
As for Tundra...yep, parts chasing engineer 
At least you have something that works good when you are done


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## Highbeam

I understand optimization, hot rodding, upgrading, etc. but can these furnaces be run as designed by the factory? Are they junk and/or dangerous out of the box? For the benefit of the regular people, I would hope that the dang things just work safely!


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> I understand optimization, hot rodding, upgrading, etc. but can these furnaces be run as designed by the factory? Are they junk and/or dangerous out of the box? For the benefit of the regular people, I would hope that the dang things just work safely!


You are talking about the Tundras? If so keep in mind they have moved on to the T2 now...haven't heard anybody complain about one of those yet.
Dangerous? Not in my opinion...the only thing "dangerous" that I can think of was when they had the ash pan recall early on...I would think those should all be weeded out by now.
I think the biggest issue with them is that SBI overated them...I think a person with a house on the lower end of their rating scale would be the happiest with a stock Tundra...still talking T1 here...need more input on the T2s to form an opinion on those yet.


----------



## 3fordasho

Highbeam said:


> I understand optimization, hot rodding, upgrading, etc. but can these furnaces be run as designed by the factory? Are they junk and/or dangerous out of the box? For the benefit of the regular people, I would hope that the dang things just work safely!


 
I think the Tundras are fairly safe right off the crate, certainly better than some of the pre-EPA offerings very recently still available (think Hot Blast with its stick wide open air inlet).  The Tundra does have a high limit and will close air in the event of power failure.  I personally get nervous when flue temps get much over 800f, which I've seen on my Tundra when I left the air inlet switch on too long - the factory high limit will shut it down eventually, but not soon enough in my opinion. Possibly the reason the early ones cracked.  It's probably still very safe, especially if you've maintained your flue.

My preference is to have additional controls to make sure I can't overheat things when I forget to shut off the air inlet switch, or maybe let that next chimney cleaning slide a little too long and now that unintentionally overheated flue touches off some build up..

Maybe it's a irrational fear but it comes from having a cat stove with a bypass that lets flames shoot right up the flue... it was more than a time or two that just a few minutes too long in bypass resulted in a pegged flue temp probe (1000F+) and really hot smelling connector pipes.

Most of the other mods are for convenience or to extract a bit more heat or efficiency because some of us should have bought a bigger furnace to start with...


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## sloeffle

Earlier this year I bought a fan speed controller and MyPIN for my Caddy. With help from @brenndatomu I was able to get the MyPIN and timer up and working. Livestock and life got in the way of getting the fan speed controller hooked up. I had to burn some vacation this past week , so I decided to hook my fan speed controller up. I must say, that thing works pretty slick. Not hearing the fan kick off and on constantly at the end of a burn will be great.

I used the ICM326HN head pressure unit ( you can find it on fleabay a lot cheaper ) from ICM since you do not need a 24V transformer. I was also able to find "newer" versions of the unit for the same price as older Totaline units.


----------



## brenndatomu

I don't recall now which model it was, and if it was ICM, Totaline, or both, but there is one model that has its own built in 24V power supply.
I've noticed that since I've posted about using these speed controllers this way, the prices of them on the fleabay has went up some...


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## smw

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00X5EZXV4/?tag=hearthamazon-20

Here is the controller I’m looking at getting, I haven’t figured out how to post pictures yet.


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## JRHAWK9

Highbeam said:


> Are they junk and/or dangerous out of the box?





not in the least.  The Kuuma is UL listed and rated for gravity heat flow if the power should ever go out.  It has a high limit switch to protect against excessive plenum temps and the computer has an audible and visual firebox over-temp alarm to alert in case of higher than normal -firebox- temps.  IE if the draft is too high or the ashpan door is ever left open.  This alarm is not a "critical point" type of alarm, it's more of a, "hey firebox temps are a bit higher than normal, please check things out" type of alarm.

I optimize everything I own for the situation it's being used in.  I get told time and time again how I just can't leave things alone.  My wood splitter, chainsaws, snow blowers, cars, computers, etc all are not like they came from the factory and all have some level of mods done to them.  Why would I not do the same for something heating our home?  As far as wood furnaces go, you are transferring heat via air.  Every house is different.  What blower setup works for me may not work for someone else so it's impossible for any manufacturer to dial in the setup optimally for all situations.


----------



## Highbeam

JRHAWK9 said:


> not in the least.  The Kuuma is UL listed and rated for gravity heat flow if the power should ever go out.  It has a high limit switch to protect against excessive plenum temps and the computer has an audible and visual firebox over-temp alarm to alert in case of higher than normal -firebox- temps.  IE if the draft is too high or the ashpan door is ever left open.  This alarm is not a "critical point" type of alarm, it's more of a, "hey firebox temps are a bit higher than normal, please check things out" type of alarm.
> 
> I optimize everything I own for the situation it's being used in.  I get told time and time again how I just can't leave things alone.  My wood splitter, chainsaws, snow blowers, cars, computers, etc all are not like they came from the factory and all have some level of mods done to them.  Why would I not do the same for something heating our home?  As far as wood furnaces go, you are transferring heat via air.  Every house is different.  What blower setup works for me may not work for someone else so it's impossible for any manufacturer to dial in the setup optimally for all situations.



Understood. I was asking about whether the modifications spread out over nearly 100 pages of this thread are required or optional. See, a guy that just wants a dang furnace might think he can’t have one without making these changes, upgrades, etc. and still enjoy reasonable safety, efficiency, and durability.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> Understood. I was asking about whether the modifications spread out over nearly 100 pages of this thread are required or optional. See, a guy that just wants a dang furnace might think he can’t have one without making these changes, upgrades, etc. and still enjoy reasonable safety, efficiency, and durability.


I don't think anybody can expect to buy a wood furnace, hook it to a chimney, connect the ducts, light it and be done...if anybody has, they just got lucky IMO...I think that almost all of them require some setup work to be optimized...and some more than others obviously...Kuuma would probably be the one that I would guess would take the least amount of work...normally anyways...


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## sloeffle

Highbeam said:


> Understood. I was asking about whether the modifications spread out over nearly 100 pages of this thread are required or optional. See, a guy that just wants a dang furnace might think he can’t have one without making these changes, upgrades, etc. and still enjoy reasonable safety, efficiency, and durability.


I paid an HVAC company to install my wood and geothermal furnaces and within a week or two I was replacing some of the stuff they put in with better stuff. I didn’t want to have to manually move a damper when I was using my wood furnace so I put a 24V power damper in.

I ran my Caddy for 5 years without making a single modification to it. It ran fine, but a hundred dollars or so later, and a little bit of time it is easier to use and seems to run a little better. I think it is people’s nature to modify things to make them better for their application. Look at the billions ( yes, billions ) people spend on aftermarket car parts. I look at it and think, what a waste of money but a lot of other people think differently. To each his own I guess.


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## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> so I decided to hook my fan speed controller up. I must say, that thing works pretty slick


By the end of January (or before) you'll be in love...


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## laynes69

So after seeing all of these blower control mods, I went back and re-evaluated my system. Fortunately, I have a 2 speed limit control that came from the factory. Unfortunately it does not shut off (designed to run constant), however will operate a high and low blower speed. I just need to figure out where to set the controller. I do have a second limit control I could use to shut off the low blower, or just a simple snapdisc correct? I'm going to try the 2 speed blower and see how it does.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> So after seeing all of these blower control mods, I went back and re-evaluated my system. Fortunately, I have a 2 speed limit control that came from the factory. Unfortunately it does not shut off (designed to run constant), however will operate a high and low blower speed. I just need to figure out where to set the controller. I do have a second limit control I could use to shut off the low blower, or just a simple snapdisc correct? I'm going to try the 2 speed blower and see how it does.


Boy, I don't know if you are going to be too happy with that...might not make much difference IMO.
For me, the big win with the variable speed control was
1. The ability to wire to the high speed tap so that when the fire is rippin hot, the blower can take advantage of it.
2. When the fire is down to just a few coals, the blower runs real slow for hours...non stop...so you are stripping heat from the flue gasses all the time instead of waiting for the blower switch to get hot enough to turn things back on for a minute or two....I think this was the biggest part of the gains for me...
(now, that said, don't turn the speed down _too far_ or you could burn out the motor since it can't cool itself...especially since most of these motors are sleeve bearing and not ball bearing. Even with the sleeve bearing settings the blower is running pretty dang slow...I have checked mine countless times after it has run on low for extended periods and found it barely even warm...I'd say even cooler that where it would be normally...but that's JMO)


----------



## laynes69

I have been running speed 2 this year, and I set speed 1 for the low. Right now it's set to run at speed 2 then go to speed 1 when it hits 100 or below. I just don't know if there will be enough heat to bring it back up during the coaling stage though? This will capture heat during the coaling stage when the blower normally wouldn't run at the end. I have 2 speed taps on the limit control (not including the high limit), with the temperature settings to go to high, then drop to low again.


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## sloeffle

laynes69 said:


> I have been running speed 2 this year, and I set speed 1 for the low. Right now it's set to run at speed 2 then go to speed 1 when it hits 100 or below. I just don't know if there will be enough heat to bring it back up during the coaling stage though? This will capture heat during the coaling stage when the blower normally wouldn't run at the end. I have 2 speed taps on the limit control (not including the high limit), with the temperature settings to go to high, then drop to low again.


@laynes69 my Caddy has a two speed fan limit switch. The low speed on the fan limit switch is wired into a summer switch. It is a simple switch that is on metal box that fan limit switch is wired into. I had the summer switch running my low speed fan. I would use it during the coaling stage but I would have manually turn it on. You could leave the switch on all of the time but sometimes I would forget to turn it off. I didn’t like leaving it on at night either because the fan would run all night then too. I also use fan speed 2. Anything above fan speed 2 creates too much static pressure in my plenum.

IMHO the timer and blower mod are well worth the time and money. The blower mod is nice because it is all automatic. You don’t have to worry about turning a switch on or trying to explain to someone what to do. The timer is nice because you can just load any go. My wife even doesn’t mind loading the furnace now.

Edit: If you ever in this part of the state give me a shout. I’d be happy to show you my setup. I am about 45 minutes south of you.


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## smw

Well I ordered the MYPIN TA6 controller, the Totaline P251-0083H speed controller for the blower and I have my hot tub timer. I should have everything for Friday and then I can hopefully hook it up Friday or Saturday and let the good times roll lol. I now have to search this thread for wiring diagrams and directions how to hook everything up. I already printed one off but that was for an Omgea controller so I'm not sure if it will be the same, I don't have much knowledge in this technical stuff. Update on my furnace not burning good is this. I installed a fresh air intake from outside but idt it really made any difference, I burned those compressed wood bricks from Menards and they burned good and hot and had some secondary burn but it didn't last very long, maybe 30 mins for the secondary burn, _I'm going to have to dig thru my wood pile for the ash and leave the oak for now_. I haven't changed the blower speed from 3 to 2 yet, I will probably do that tonight.


----------



## NateJD

I've got a question I feel stupid asking since I don't know anything about temp controls and such.  I've been burning the Tundra for 3 years.  I've had the firebrick update installed since the beginning and never had cracking issues.  I've been reading about temp controls for the damper and they don't really interest me, I actually like running the furnace from my thermostat.  What I would really like to do is control the fan based on flu temp or plenum temp.  My propane only kicks on during the end of the burn when the stupid fan is cycling on and off.  Seems I still get good heat when the fan is on and it's wasted when off.  Instead of running the fan like a variable speed motor, could you run it through some controller that changed to speed 1, 2, 3, or 4 based on temp?  Would it be better to get that temp signal from the flu or the plenum.  Any pro, cons, or thoughts on this?


----------



## brenndatomu

NateJD said:


> Instead of running the fan like a variable speed motor, could you run it through some controller that changed to speed 1, 2, 3, or 4 based on temp? Would it be better to get that temp signal from the flu or the plenum. Any pro, cons, or thoughts on this?


It has been done both ways...I personally don't like the speed 1, 2, 3, 4 method because the fan still moves a lot of air on low speed and you will still get the cycling on/off...the speed control that we have been using can keep the blower running at a very low speed for hours on end at the end of the burn...it made a huge difference for me. 
You want to take the temp reading from the plenum IMO.


----------



## sloeffle

NateJD said:


> Instead of running the fan like a variable speed motor, could you run it through some controller that changed to speed 1, 2, 3, or 4 based on temp?  Would it be better to get that temp signal from the flu or the plenum.  Any pro, cons, or thoughts on this?


I have run my Caddy similar to this way for the past couple years. The Caddy has a two speed fan limit switch and I would run it on low speed during the coaling stage. Fan speed 2 was my "normal" setting and fan speed 1 was my "low" setting. The fan speed controller is much better in my opinion because it is all automatic. My low speed fan was tied into a switch and sometimes I would forget to turn it on or I didn't want it run all night etc. 

The only pro that I could think of is that you are using the low speed factory setting and not monkeying with the motor voltage. Earlier in the thread there was some talk that the speed controller could possibly lesson the life of the blower motor.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Earlier in the thread there was some talk that the speed controller could possibly lesson the life of the blower motor.


True. There is still this possiblity on the long term, but for me the motor runs so cool that i don't believe it is going to affect things much if at all...just my personal opinion.
I believe their concern with slowing the motor down is overheating...but these motors in this application run in a cool environment naturally anyways, and as the speed drops, the load does too...that is not always the case in other applications...lower speed, but same load...bad combo.


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## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> FYI, it requires about 4700 Btu/hr every hour of the entire day to evaporate 14 gal.  I'm sure you know that's a significant portion of the heat your Kuuma makes, especially this time of year which isn't the dead of winter yet.
> 
> (But maybe that's ok, since you have 10 yrs of firewood drying).





3fordasho said:


> I would be concerned pumping 14 gallons a day into my old house that's for sure, it would be collecting as frost on windows, inside walls, all kinds of places you don't want it especially when outside temps warm up and it all melts.  Hope your vapor barriers are in good shape. ( I suspect if they were, you would not need 14 gallons a day).





DoubleB said:


> If I remember how to use my psychrometric chart, indoor air at 68F and 40% humidity will condense to water within the parts of your walls that are 43F or cooler.  Not saying you shouldn't humidify, but just for reference.



I just wanted to give props where props were due.  You guys were 100% right (and I should have known better....lol)

I saw some icicles hanging outside on the eaves and my GF also saw a couple drops of water coming from the peak.    This was when outside temps were at or around zero and RH was 35% in the house (which is more than it should have been at those outside temps).  I immediately stopped all humidification. 

As soon as I stopped, the house temp creeped up and since then it's been easier to heat.  Temps are again below zero and we have about 20% RH, which is on the low side for the outside temps, but o well.

All this, along with the frost building up on the inside walls and other various cold areas/spots has led me to get a energy audit done.


----------



## TDD11

Yesterday morning it was around 5°F outside and when I got out of bed it was 64°F in the house. 7 small/medium splits of ash, and it brought the house up to 71°F in a matter of 3 hours. This is without the variable speed blower mod. I was thrilled with that. I don't usually stuff that much firewood in it.

Of course the house temps drop off a bit around 5 hours on a load - but I'm hoping the variable speed blower will help reduce that drop.

Brenn, can you link me to the power supply you used for your blower speed mod?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> 7 small/medium splits of ash, and it brought the house up to 71°F in a matter of 3 hours.


Geez, I'd pee myself if I could raise my house temp 7 degrees in one load...especially at 5F outside! 


TDD11 said:


> Brenn, can you link me to the power supply you used for your blower speed mod?


I just used one I had layin around here...about any 24 VAC transformer would do...but here is a link for one...there is tons of different ones out there that would work though...https://www.ebay.com/itm/FUNCTIONAL...727141&hash=item4d248e2d93:g:c7UAAOSwO9JaB~MA


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Geez, I'd pee myself if I could raise my house temp 7 degrees in one load...especially at 5F outside!
> 
> I just used one I had layin around here...about any 24 VAC transformer would do...but here is a link for one...there is tons of different ones out there that would work though...https://www.ebay.com/itm/FUNCTIONAL...727141&hash=item4d248e2d93:g:c7UAAOSwO9JaB~MA


Like I said, I don't usually pack it that full and I don't recall it ever being that effective before. Just imagine if I had fresh cleaned HX tubes - It's been about 2 weeks since i have cleaned those. It is a small house - 1700 total square feet. No ductwork to the 2nd floor besides an open staircase..

Thanks for the link, everything I kept finding was $25, although I guess I had searched for


----------



## Craig9702

When i bought my tundra 2 years ago I hooked it up,  and when I got it running i barely felt anything blowing out of the vents.....just no air volume.....so if I remember correctly I changed the fan speed from its factor 2 setting to 3......it helped but with what the temps have been here in northern wisconsin I'm really considering moving it to the highest setting.....im just wondering if it is gonna help or hurt me.......i load it up with nice dry red oak 1/4 and 1/2  splits.......


----------



## KC Matt

sloeffle said:


> I have run my Caddy similar to this way for the past couple years. The Caddy has a two speed fan limit switch and I would run it on low speed during the coaling stage. Fan speed 2 was my "normal" setting and fan speed 1 was my "low" setting. The fan speed controller is much better in my opinion because it is all automatic. My low speed fan was tied into a switch and sometimes I would forget to turn it on or I didn't want it run all night etc.
> 
> The only pro that I could think of is that you are using the low speed factory setting and not monkeying with the motor voltage. Earlier in the thread there was some talk that the speed controller could possibly lesson the life of the blower motor.



That's how mine runs: I use speeds 1 and 3 and there is probably very little to gain by switching between all 4 speeds.  At full load and with the stove screaming, it outputs 100*F at 6" above the furnace and when it's down to coals it's in speed 1. 

It's been unusually cold here and my Tundra is just not cutting the mustard.  Last night was -11 with wind chills in the -30 area and after feeding the furnace all it would eat of Hedge/Oak mix of 2+ year old wood that's been stored under cover, it was 59 in the house this morning.  I gave up and turned on the gas; it took over 2 hours to get back to 70 in the house.  After it warmed back up, I fired up the Tundra and it did fine keeping temp during the day with help from an insert in the basement, but I'm going back to gas for the week.  I have a job and can't sit here and babysit this thing.

I should have bought the bigger furnace.  Or the real deal, the Kuuma.  As it is, I'm looking at updating the insert to keep the house warm, which is another $2k by the time it's installed.  I wish I could use an OWB.


----------



## brenndatomu

Craig9702 said:


> I hooked it up, and when I got it running i barely felt anything blowing out of the vents.....just no air volume.....


There is a balance between getting volume, and letting the air pass over the furnace slow enough to actually pick up some heat (temp rise) think about the hot potato...it won't burn you if you don't hold on to it for long...same with the air, if it goes by too quickly there is not much heat transfer.
I'd say experiment with it and see what works for you...


----------



## KC Matt

smw said:


> I have seen on this forum where you guys have added controllers for the fan and damper, I have to look thru the posts again to find exactly what controllers were used and how they are wired in, I told SBI that I shouldn’t have to do all that but if it makes these Tundras work better and you guys seem to be a lot happier after it’s done then I guess I’m on board doing it



The tundra is nearly useless as shipped IMO.  It really doesn't work without the damper controller and the factory on/off switch is a joke.  Mine would have supply temps anywhere between 140 and 165 before the fan kicked on, and by that time the load was half burned.  Of course with these things, adding wood during the cycle results in excessive coaling which is a huge problem when it's really cold.  You need to let it burn out but during the last few hours where it's just coals, the temp in the house is dropping.  When the coals are reduced to a level where you can load it, the house is getting cold and the next load of fuel will barely raise the temp before it's back to coals.  And that's with a slew of controllers and dozens of hours tweaking them.

It's important to size the Tundra to a suitable heat load.  My house is a touch more than the Tundra can supply in the coldest days.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> It's been unusually cold here and my Tundra is just not cutting the mustard. Last night was -11 with wind chills in the -30 area and after feeding the furnace all it would eat of Hedge/Oak mix of 2+ year old wood that's been stored under cover, it was 65 in the house this morning. I gave up and turned on the gas


I don't think its reasonable to expect the same wood furnace to heat the house when its 30 or 40* out, and then at -10*/-30 wind chill too...its just the nature of the beast, wood heat is a cyclical type of heat and just not good at running outside of a certain range based on firebox size (mainly)...even the Kuuma has its limits...there was one for sale here last winter by a guy who just bought it and it didn't even come close to heating his house...and it wasn't this cold then either.
I think the best setup is to set the gas furnace Tstat to ...68* for example, then the Tundra can take the majority of the heat load, let the gas furnace take the balance if Tundra runs low before it can be stoked back up...there's probably very little gas actually used in a years time doing it this way. Gotta remember, this is really _extreme_ weather, I don't think most people would be happy (over the long term) buying a wood heater big enough for "worst case scenario" unless it was their _only_ heat, and no other option.
Or you can do like I do, fire up a second stove (sounds like you did)...I haven't used any oil in years this way. The lil stove in the LR fireplace hasn't been cold in a week...the furnace takes most of the load, then the stove fills in the cracks so to speak. It does take some dedication to keep 2 fireboxes going...they hardly ever seem to need fed at the same time...it can be a lot to figure out a good schedule and not get the house too hot or too cold...sometimes its tempting to want to just flip the oil Tstat on...I would sometimes but with the way I'm setup right now it would take some work to run oil...plus I'm not sure the oil heat exchanger isn't cracked or something...was getting a wiff of smell once in a while...so not gonna run it until I know what's up for sure...


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> The tundra is nearly useless as shipped IMO. It really doesn't work without the damper controller and the factory on/off switch is a joke. Mine would have supply temps anywhere between 140 and 165 before the fan kicked on, and by that time the load was half burned.


Agreed! For most people they are not plug and play...at least the T1...dunno if T2 is any better or not...


----------



## KC Matt

brenndatomu said:


> I don't think its reasonable to expect the same wood furnace to heat the house when its 30 or 40* out, and then at -10*/-30 wind chill too...its just the nature of the beast, wood heat is a cyclical type of heat and just not good at running outside of a certain range based on firebox size (mainly)...even the Kuuma has its limits...there was one for sale here last winter by a guy who just bought it and it didn't even come close to heating his house...and it wasn't this cold then either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's true.  I'm frustrated because I spent $3,000 and many hours on this installation and here I am burning gas.  Then again today's high was 3 and last night was -11 it's -3 now and the demands on heat are outrageous.  In perspective, thousands of people have lost power and hundreds more lost water because even utilities don't work.  So yeah it's probably not the end of the world for the house to be 59*.  Tell that to the better half.
> 
> During normal conditions this furnace, after extensive and expensive modifications, can keep a normal house at a reasonable and survivable temperature.  Notice I didn't say comfortable.  Right now I'm outside the bell curve.
Click to expand...


----------



## sloeffle

KC Matt said:


> It's been unusually cold here and my Tundra is just not cutting the mustard.  Last night was -11 with wind chills in the -30 area and after feeding the furnace all it would eat of Hedge/Oak mix of 2+ year old wood that's been stored under cover, it was 59 in the house this morning.  I gave up and turned on the gas; it took over 2 hours to get back to 70 in the house.  After it warmed back up, I fired up the Tundra and it did fine keeping temp during the day with help from an insert in the basement, but I'm going back to gas for the week.  I have a job and can't sit here and babysit this thing.


These really cold temps definitely make keeping the house warm a PITA. I have been babysitting my Caddy for the past couple weeks too. I can't wait until it warms up and I can run the geo. Speaking of the house being cold. Woke up at 530 and the house was 66. Turned the wood furnace thermostat on to 65 so I could burn some coals down. Wife woke me back up at 7 and I fell back asleep and finally woke back up at 745 and the house was 62. Ran both furnaces and had it up to 70 in a couple hours.



KC Matt said:


> I should have bought the bigger furnace.  Or the real deal, the Kuuma.  As it is, I'm looking at updating the insert to keep the house warm, which is another $2k by the time it's installed.  I wish I could use an OWB.


Funny you say that, I was looking at Portage and Main OWB's yesterday on the internet. I am a little jealous that you don't have to handle a piece of wood three times to get it into the stove. A bunch of my buddies have them and they really like them except the amount of wood they use. I'd rather burn two cords a year in my furnace instead of ten in an OWB. They all have pre-EPA models though. Plus the wife would kill me if I told her we spent 30k on a geo system and OWB. If money wasn't an object I'd have a Froling with 2k gallon of storage in a building next to house.


----------



## laynes69

The worst it's been has been 68 after 8 or 9 hours, didn't want to get up. Within 10-15 minutes with the gas furnace, it climbs to 72. I don't mind running the furnace if that's all it takes. Since we've tightened the home, the LP doesn't work hard at all. This weather I wished we had a larger firebox, but then we would be oversized much of the time. Once the sun comes out, we warm up to 74 or so in this cold. I have a couple friends with OWB's and right now they are burning a cord a week in this weather, but their houses lack both insulation and airsealing.


----------



## maple1

A cord a week?!


----------



## laynes69

maple1 said:


> A cord a week?!


Yep! The one home used almost 60 truckloads one year, and the other at least 40 and a couple of tanks of LP. Unfortunately, the one just spent 40k on a roof and windows, and that should've gone to insulation and airsealing. We by far do not have a small home, yet we burn nothing compared to them.


----------



## TDD11

Let me bounce a thought off of you guys. I would have an HVAC contractor come out to get their thoughts, but I figure they are probably pretty busy right now. I tried to google this but did not have many results that matched what I had in mind.

I either need a separate supply system for the wood furnace, or a damper system. Currently, I use a sheet of drywall in my propane furnace in place of the filter, to block air from the Tundra from backflowing through the propane furnace. This is only moderately effective, and also prevents my propane furnace from running in the event that the house gets cold - think "emergency /don't make it home as expected" type scenarios. 

I have been mulling over some options and ideas. What are your guys' thoughts on having a separate trunk ducts in my basement for my propane furnace and Tundra? My house is small, with a small footprint of 570 sq ft per floor. That's why I think this might be viable. There are only 2 branches off of my supply trunk, and both are short runs of 6" round duct. I actually wonder if that is creating too much backpressure and not allowing the system to flow efficient and effectively - not to mention when both furnaces try to run at the same time.

I considered having an HVAC company install backflow dampers on both furnaces - but I believe they would need to be automated, and open during a power outage to let the Tundra heat flow. Having backflow dampers would eliminate any backflow concerns. But my concern is when both are running - like when the house is cold. Turn on the propane while I'm building a fire, trying to warm the house quickly. The blowers from both furnaces run and create a high static pressure. 

Since I only have a short trunk duct, and 2 branches (at the moment anyways) and such a small footprint, I don't think a 2nd duct system would cost that much. Plus, I would never have to worry about backflow through either furnace. And both furnaces could run simultaneously without creating high static pressures and putting excessive load on the blowers. The biggest drawbacks would be a second trunk duct in the basement making the small basement room feel even smaller - and having to install 2 more registers blowing into the ground floor living room.

I do not have cold air return ducts in the house - the layout of the house wouldn't make adding them easy, and with the small footprint, I don't think it's necessary anyways. Instead, there are 2 vents through the ground floor into the basement - and I may add a 3rd in the kitchen - venting to the basement laundry/bathroom. Also, the door to my basement has louvers to allow my basement stairs to be a cold air return.


----------



## JRHAWK9

The three past nights here have gotten down to -12°, -15°, and -12° with highs during the day of under 5° and dropping to -5° to -8° already by 7pm. House was 68° in the morning all three mornings with a LP furnace run time of under 30 minutes for all three mornings -combined-.  So the LP ran an average of under 10 minutes each morning.  I was able to warm the house back up to 74° with the wood furnace (aided by solar gain) during the day while I was home by doing smaller partial loads, loading 4 times a day instead of 3 (like I do when not home during day) and pretty much running the pants off of it.  I was burning as much wood as it would let me!  LOL  Considering the heat load of our place (~70K-80K BTU's/hr at those nighttime temps keeping house at 70°), I was happy.  Not so happy with the 13-16% RH the house is now sitting at seeing I about faced on the humidity thing after getting it to rain inside the house!


----------



## sloeffle

TDD11 said:


> I considered having an HVAC company install backflow dampers on both furnaces - but I believe they would need to be automated, and open during a power outage to let the Tundra heat flow. Having backflow dampers would eliminate any backflow concerns. But my concern is when both are running - like when the house is cold. Turn on the propane while I'm building a fire, trying to warm the house quickly. The blowers from both furnaces run and create a high static pressure.


I installed a 24V power damper in the plenum of my geo furnace. That closes when my wood furnace turns on. I also have a 24V power damper on  the pipe going from the wood furnace into the geo furnace plenum. The closes when the geo turns on.

When I want to run both furnaces I just unplug the power dampers. If I was smart I would just install a little switch on the power dampers. The only thing that sucks about that setup is that I cannot run both furnaces unless I manually have to intervene. I also have to take the back off the wood furnace off because there isn't enough return air for both furnaces. Ninety-percent of the time it isn't a big deal. I can generally keep the house between 66 and 72 ( too hot IMHO ) with the wood furnace alone.

I am not an HVAC person but I don't see a problem with your setup. I would double check your building codes too. Are you just pulling return air from the basement for your wood furnace ?


----------



## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> Let me bounce a thought off of you guys. I would have an HVAC contractor come out to get their thoughts, but I figure they are probably pretty busy right now. I tried to google this but did not have many results that matched what I had in mind.
> 
> I either need a separate supply system for the wood furnace, or a damper system. Currently, I use a sheet of drywall in my propane furnace in place of the filter, to block air from the Tundra from backflowing through the propane furnace. This is only moderately effective, and also prevents my propane furnace from running in the event that the house gets cold - think "emergency /don't make it home as expected" type scenarios.
> 
> I have been mulling over some options and ideas. What are your guys' thoughts on having a separate trunk ducts in my basement for my propane furnace and Tundra? My house is small, with a small footprint of 570 sq ft per floor. That's why I think this might be viable. There are only 2 branches off of my supply trunk, and both are short runs of 6" round duct. I actually wonder if that is creating too much backpressure and not allowing the system to flow efficient and effectively - not to mention when both furnaces try to run at the same time.
> 
> I considered having an HVAC company install backflow dampers on both furnaces - but I believe they would need to be automated, and open during a power outage to let the Tundra heat flow. Having backflow dampers would eliminate any backflow concerns. But my concern is when both are running - like when the house is cold. Turn on the propane while I'm building a fire, trying to warm the house quickly. The blowers from both furnaces run and create a high static pressure.
> 
> Since I only have a short trunk duct, and 2 branches (at the moment anyways) and such a small footprint, I don't think a 2nd duct system would cost that much. Plus, I would never have to worry about backflow through either furnace. And both furnaces could run simultaneously without creating high static pressures and putting excessive load on the blowers. The biggest drawbacks would be a second trunk duct in the basement making the small basement room feel even smaller - and having to install 2 more registers blowing into the ground floor living room.
> 
> I do not have cold air return ducts in the house - the layout of the house wouldn't make adding them easy, and with the small footprint, I don't think it's necessary anyways. Instead, there are 2 vents through the ground floor into the basement - and I may add a 3rd in the kitchen - venting to the basement laundry/bathroom. Also, the door to my basement has louvers to allow my basement stairs to be a cold air return.
> 
> View attachment 219497
> View attachment 219498
> View attachment 219499



The setup I have will probably work with what you want to do.  I don't have my return air of the wood furnace connected to the main cold air of the house either.  I use an open staircase for that.

I have a powered close/spring open damper in the supply duct connecting the wood furnace to the main supply duct.  It's wired by way of a relay to only CLOSE when the LP blower is the only blower running.  It remains open the rest of the time.  I then have a gravity damper in the plenum of the LP furnace.  I power it close because I need it to be open in case of a power failure.  

My setup allows BOTH blowers to seamlessly "dance" with each other without flipping a single switch or manually doing anything.  My SP in my supply duct is 0.4" when both my LP blower (using low speed tap) and wood blower (using low speed tap) are running at the same time.

I'm using the 120V EAC and HUM circuits on my LP furnace, a normally set snap switch, a "overtemp" snap switch, pressure head controller, spring open/power closed damper, gravity damper, 120V minute timer and 4 relays to accomplish everything I want to. 

If you want more info, PM me.


----------



## DoubleB

TDD11 said:


> Instead, there are 2 vents through the ground floor into the basement - and I may add a 3rd in the kitchen - venting to the basement laundry/bathroom. Also, the door to my basement has louvers to allow my basement stairs to be a cold air return.



Can you convert those 2-3 vents into supplies that come from the Tundra?  Use the basement door/stairs as the cold air return for both furnaces?  For my house I have three 6x12 floor vents dedicated to the Tundra, and as it turns out I only need two of them and still get plenty of airflow with less than 0.2"H20 static pressure.  

Maybe that's not the exact solution but I'm happy with my separate ductwork for my Tundra, it's quite simple.


----------



## brenndatomu

I ran separate duct (and new/seperate vents too) for my sisters Tundra...works pretty well.


----------



## TDD11

Thanks everyone.. so I'm not crazy! I've been thinking that besides the visual perspective, separate supply systems made more sense.


----------



## TDD11

sloeffle said:


> I installed a 24V power damper in the plenum of my geo furnace. That closes when my wood furnace turns on. I also have a 24V power damper on  the pipe going from the wood furnace into the geo furnace plenum. The closes when the geo turns on.
> 
> When I want to run both furnaces I just unplug the power dampers. If I was smart I would just install a little switch on the power dampers. The only thing that sucks about that setup is that I cannot run both furnaces unless I manually have to intervene. I also have to take the back off the wood furnace off because there isn't enough return air for both furnaces. Ninety-percent of the time it isn't a big deal. I can generally keep the house between 66 and 72 ( too hot IMHO ) with the wood furnace alone.
> 
> I am not an HVAC person but I don't see a problem with your setup. I would double check your building codes too. Are you just pulling return air from the basement for your wood furnace ?


I thought about something like that but I really want to not have to have any manual work in order for the propane furnace to run. It's more of a backup thing, in case the house was left unattended for some sort of emergency, it would maintain maybe 50°F.

You are correct, I'm just pulling air from the basement floor for the wood furnace.


DoubleB said:


> Can you convert those 2-3 vents into supplies that come from the Tundra?  Use the basement door/stairs as the cold air return for both furnaces?  For my house I have three 6x12 floor vents dedicated to the Tundra, and as it turns out I only need two of them and still get plenty of airflow with less than 0.2"H20 static pressure.
> 
> Maybe that's not the exact solution but I'm happy with my separate ductwork for my Tundra, it's quite simple.


I could do that, but I would have to run the ducts perpendicular to the floor joists under them and besides the trunk duct, I hoped to avoid that.


----------



## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> Thanks everyone.. so I'm not crazy! I've been thinking that besides the visual perspective, separate supply systems made more sense.



In those cases where one does not have large enough supply ducts to support the sheer volume of air two blowers running simultaneously will put out, I would agree.  This sounds like the issue you would have.


----------



## Kdc88

Hello everyone. New here, ive read a lot of stuff on this thread and its all very good info so thanks to everyone. I bought a tundra df02000 the day i purchased my home. I just got around to installing it this year before winter. I have it installed and everything is correct as far as clearances go. I have no cold air return hooked up yet and i put dampers in the supply ducts to get the static pressure that the manual calls for. I have no draft issues, that works great, no modification needed. Ive been running it for a few months now and this thing is doing nothing but eat all the unsightly fore wood in the basement. I will soon be hooking up the cold air return and putting in a combustion air pipe to the outside but i was just wondering if you guys might have any suggestions. It cant even get the house above 60 seems like a very large waste of time and money so far. If i cannot figure it out i will be selling it for a different brand but id rather not if i dont have to. Any ideas or suggestions would help thatk you. I will post pictures tomorrow of the setup if needed.


----------



## sloeffle

TDD11 said:


> I thought about something like that but I really want to not have to have any manual work in order for the propane furnace to run. It's more of a backup thing, in case the house was left unattended for some sort of emergency, it would maintain maybe 50°F.


If I had to do it over, I would buy manually weighted dampers. I would make running both furnaces a little bit easier.

Live and learn......


----------



## maple1

Kdc88 said:


> Hello everyone. New here, ive read a lot of stuff on this thread and its all very good info so thanks to everyone. I bought a tundra df02000 the day i purchased my home. I just got around to installing it this year before winter. I have it installed and everything is correct as far as clearances go. I have no cold air return hooked up yet and i put dampers in the supply ducts to get the static pressure that the manual calls for. I have no draft issues, that works great, no modification needed. Ive been running it for a few months now and this thing is doing nothing but eat all the unsightly fore wood in the basement. I will soon be hooking up the cold air return and putting in a combustion air pipe to the outside but i was just wondering if you guys might have any suggestions. It cant even get the house above 60 seems like a very large waste of time and money so far. If i cannot figure it out i will be selling it for a different brand but id rather not if i dont have to. Any ideas or suggestions would help thatk you. I will post pictures tomorrow of the setup if needed.



If the return isn't hooked up - isn't it pulling in cold air from the basement floor? Which is likely quite cold? 

Also if it is anything like where I'm at - it's likely pretty cold outside too? Maybe some of that cold outside air is getting sucked into the basement since the return is pulling from there?

Not knowing anything about the house - maybe it's doing pretty good doing what it's doing?

Having said that - there are more capable furnaces out there. We just don't know much about your situation.


----------



## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> It's more of a backup thing, in case the house was left unattended for some sort of emergency, it would maintain maybe 50°F.



This was my original plan and how I had things setup when I first installed it.  I had my powered damper wired to close when the LP furnace ran regardless of what the wood furnace was doing.  I had the LP thermostat set at like 60°.  My thought was by the time the house reached 60° the wood furnace would be cooler and the blower wouldn't need to run anyway.  This was back before I had made any tweaks to my supply/return air and things were FAR from being optimally setup.  Looking back, my original return/supply setup was terribly inefficient.  The furnace was always burning and making the BTU's just fine, I was just not getting them into the house very efficiently.  Anyway, it just took one below zero day to realize I needed to find a way to get both furnaces to work seamlessly together so I could set the LP thermostat at like 68° and not have to worry about it.




TDD11 said:


> You are correct, I'm just pulling air from the basement floor for the wood furnace.



I used to pull the cold air off the basement floor and this is one of the changes I made as referenced above.  I boxed out the return air and brought the intake up to the basement ceiling so it would be taking in the warmer air off the ceiling instead of the cold air off the floor.  I then made a duct system which reclaimed some of the hot air radiating off the face of the wood furnace and injected it into the cold air.  Doing this basically just increase what they call the "delivered efficiency".  Contrary to what I thought may happen, the basement still remained heated just fine.   A few days ago I took some sample temperatures.  It was 0° outside when I did this.  The temp of the air on the basement floor was ~65° at the rear of the wood furnace. The temp of the air coming into my return air "plenum" sucking from the basement ceiling was 73°. The temp of my return air inside my blower box after being mixed with the reclaimed air off the face of the furnace was 86°. Those two mods made a 20° difference in the air I am taking in and sending through the air jacket to get heated.  My cold air temps are always anywhere from 80° - 89° depending where I am in the burn cycle and how high I have the wood furnace turned up to.  Most of the time they are in the mid 80's.

The reason I'm telling you this is, try to get your cold air intake off the basement floor.  It should increase your supply temps with very little affect on the heated basement temps.  At least in my experience anyway.

Also, I firmly believe that any warm air wood furnace, regardless of brand, can benefit from taking the time and experimenting with return/supply air.  I found out by simply adding the blower controller to mine that my house LOVES low volume/higher temp supply air.  I have my blower slowed down quite a bit to the point I really can't go any slower with a sleeved bearing motor.  Every time I slowed it down more I saw positive results.


----------



## joes169

Kdc88 said:


> Hello everyone. New here, ive read a lot of stuff on this thread and its all very good info so thanks to everyone. I bought a tundra df02000 the day i purchased my home. I just got around to installing it this year before winter. I have it installed and everything is correct as far as clearances go. I have no cold air return hooked up yet and i put dampers in the supply ducts to get the static pressure that the manual calls for. I have no draft issues, that works great, no modification needed. Ive been running it for a few months now and this thing is doing nothing but eat all the unsightly fore wood in the basement. I will soon be hooking up the cold air return and putting in a combustion air pipe to the outside but i was just wondering if you guys might have any suggestions. It cant even get the house above 60 seems like a very large waste of time and money so far. If i cannot figure it out i will be selling it for a different brand but id rather not if i dont have to. Any ideas or suggestions would help thatk you. I will post pictures tomorrow of the setup if needed.




How warm is the basement getting?  

There's certainly a lot of fine tuning involved in getting these things, or any wood furnace, to operate correctly, but not having a cold air return hooked up is pretty much a recipe for being let down.  4 years ago, when I hooked up my Caddy, I ran a day or two w/o the return ducts hooked up, and I was also let-down and thought I made a mistake.  Once you get the system complete and tweaked, you'll be much happier.


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## DoubleB

Kdc88 said:


> It cant even get the house above 60 seems like a very large waste of time and money so far.



Welcome Kdc88!
Agreed there's probably something else yet to be done with your Tundra but I can't tell enough info from your posting.  I'm only one datapoint, but through this cold and wind our Tundra has single-handedly heated our leaky poorly-insulated farmhouse, 2100 sq ft living plus 1050 sqft basement.  Granted, that took some babysitting and frequent feeding, but without overheating or over-running the furnace beyond normal.


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## KC Matt

laynes69 said:


> The worst it's been has been 68 after 8 or 9 hours, didn't want to get up. Within 10-15 minutes with the gas furnace, it climbs to 72. I don't mind running the furnace if that's all it takes. Since we've tightened the home, the LP doesn't work hard at all. This weather I wished we had a larger firebox, but then we would be oversized much of the time. Once the sun comes out, we warm up to 74 or so in this cold. I have a couple friends with OWB's and right now they are burning a cord a week in this weather, but their houses lack both insulation and airsealing.



That's insane. Something is really wrong to use that much wood unless they are heating a warehouse.



TDD11 said:


> Let me bounce a thought off of you guys. I would have an HVAC contractor come out to get their thoughts, but I figure they are probably pretty busy right now. I tried to google this but did not have many results that matched what I had in mind.
> 
> I either need a separate supply system for the wood furnace, or a damper system. Currently, I use a sheet of drywall in my propane furnace in place of the filter, to block air from the Tundra from backflowing through the propane furnace. This is only moderately effective, and also prevents my propane furnace from running in the event that the house gets cold - think "emergency /don't make it home as expected" type scenarios.
> 
> I have been mulling over some options and ideas. What are your guys' thoughts on having a separate trunk ducts in my basement for my propane furnace and Tundra? My house is small, with a small footprint of 570 sq ft per floor. That's why I think this might be viable. There are only 2 branches off of my supply trunk, and both are short runs of 6" round duct. I actually wonder if that is creating too much backpressure and not allowing the system to flow efficient and effectively - not to mention when both furnaces try to run at the same time.
> 
> I considered having an HVAC company install backflow dampers on both furnaces - but I believe they would need to be automated, and open during a power outage to let the Tundra heat flow. Having backflow dampers would eliminate any backflow concerns. But my concern is when both are running - like when the house is cold. Turn on the propane while I'm building a fire, trying to warm the house quickly. The blowers from both furnaces run and create a high static pressure.
> 
> Since I only have a short trunk duct, and 2 branches (at the moment anyways) and such a small footprint, I don't think a 2nd duct system would cost that much. Plus, I would never have to worry about backflow through either furnace. And both furnaces could run simultaneously without creating high static pressures and putting excessive load on the blowers. The biggest drawbacks would be a second trunk duct in the basement making the small basement room feel even smaller - and having to install 2 more registers blowing into the ground floor living room.
> 
> I do not have cold air return ducts in the house - the layout of the house wouldn't make adding them easy, and with the small footprint, I don't think it's necessary anyways. Instead, there are 2 vents through the ground floor into the basement - and I may add a 3rd in the kitchen - venting to the basement laundry/bathroom. Also, the door to my basement has louvers to allow my basement stairs to be a cold air return.
> 
> View attachment 219497
> View attachment 219498
> View attachment 219499



I'm more convinced by the day that having separate ductwork is the way to go.  In my case adding the second run would be very difficult, but if I could manage a couple of supply runs, the two furnaces could share a return duct in my mind.  When the gas comes on, the Tundra is cycling on and off of low speed and the two would be pulling the same direction.  There is just no good way to install the duct runs.


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## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> the two furnaces could share a return duct in my mind.



If you want the ability to run both at the same time, I would not share return ducts, unless they were sized accordingly.  They would be fighting over return air otherwise and one may be "robbing Peter to pay Paul", especially if one blower is turning slower or is weaker.

This is the exact reason why I added  a relay to move power away from my blower controller (controlling high speed tap) to the low speed tap on my wood furnace blower as soon as the LP furnace kicks on.  While I was testing how the furnaces played together towards the end of a burn, I noticed because the controller had slowed down the wood blower so much, when the LP kicked on it actually started to backfeed the wood blower.  Not cool.  So the way it is now, as soon as the LP kicks on, the low speed winding becomes active and now there is no back-feeding.


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## joes169

This is only my opinion, and to be clear, I don't own a Tundra but the similar Caddy, but I don't want my LP furnace and Caddy running at the same time. I just set the LP furnace back a few degrees below the Caddy t-stat and live with the fact that I'm burning a minimal amount of LP when I'm too lazy/not home/able to add wood.


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## JRHAWK9

joes169 said:


> This is only my opinion, and to be clear, I don't own a Tundra but the similar Caddy, but I don't want my LP furnace and Caddy running at the same time. I just set the LP furnace back a few degrees below the Caddy t-stat and live with the fact that I'm burning a minimal amount of LP when I'm too lazy/not home/able to add wood.



So, when your house temp drops a few degrees to your LP thermostat setpoint your Caddy blower stops?  At the end of a burn on a very cold morning when the wood blower is cycling and the house temp drops to your LP's temp setpoint, what keeps the wood blower from cycling when the LP kicks in?  I can see setting the LP thermostat like 10° under the wood one, but I'm not sure only a few degrees would be enough.  Unless your home is crazy insulated and can hold heat long enough for the wood furnace to pretty much go cold before the house drops 3°.


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## laynes69

Our woodfurnace is usually set at 74 overnight, but in this weather, I set it at 72. We keep the LP set at 68 and the central furnace never runs. Some time this week, our LP was set at 70, and this morning I woke to a 70 degree house (chills at -15, temp below zero) and our central furnace never ran. We have manual dampers and the LP side was never tripped.


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## joes169

JRHAWK9 said:


> So, when your house temp drops a few degrees to your LP thermostat setpoint your Caddy blower stops?  At the end of a burn on a very cold morning when the wood blower is cycling and the house temp drops to your LP's temp setpoint, what keeps the wood blower from cycling when the LP kicks in?  I can see setting the LP thermostat like 10° under the wood one, but I'm not sure only a few degrees would be enough.  Unless your home is crazy insulated and can hold heat long enough for the wood furnace to pretty much go cold before the house drops 3°.




There's a ton of variables, but yes, I set it back about 4-5 degrees typically.  If the Caddy blower were to run for 20 seconds, I'm not worried about it much.  Odds are the furnace may not be running at the same time anyways.  My house is not super insulated, but it certainly takes a LONG time to see a 10 degree drop in temps, especially when the Caddy is loaded full before bed.

I should also mention, I have mine set so the blower won't kick on until it reaches 150 degrees, which is more than just a little coaling.


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## KC Matt

JRHAWK9 said:


> If you want the ability to run both at the same time, I would not share return ducts, unless they were sized accordingly.  They would be fighting over return air otherwise and one may be "robbing Peter to pay Paul", especially if one blower is turning slower or is weaker.
> 
> This is the exact reason why I added  a relay to move power away from my blower controller (controlling high speed tap) to the low speed tap on my wood furnace blower as soon as the LP furnace kicks on.  While I was testing how the furnaces played together towards the end of a burn, I noticed because the controller had slowed down the wood blower so much, when the LP kicked on it actually started to backfeed the wood blower.  Not cool.  So the way it is now, as soon as the LP kicks on, the low speed winding becomes active and now there is no back-feeding.



That's interesting.  If we suppose the gas furnace blower overpowers the wood furnace (it should) then air is still flowing through the heat exchanger of the wood furnace it's just going backwards.  I've seen just that when the wood  furnace was dying out and the gas furnace kicked in.  The output was far warmer than what the gas furnace produces by itself.  When the wood furnace is producing little heat, what difference would it make if the air flows backwards through the heat exchanger?

What I am trying to avoid is having the output of the gas furnace cycle through the wood furnace instead of going through the house.  In my mind that wastes energy and jeopardizes the gas furnace heat exchanger.  The other issue to me is having the output of the wood furnace circulating through the gas furnace.  The heat exchanger  of the gas furnace absorbs heat while the house gets cold.  

Seems like a couple dampers would make it work.  Everything is a compromise here, including the ability to install the ductwork.  Doing so would mean tearing out a finished basement here.  Maybe $10,000 plus ductwork.


----------



## JRHAWK9

As far as what backfeeds what, that all depends on the motors and what speed taps are being used.  Backfeeding anything is not a good idea, IMO, as you are going against the direction of which the blower is rotating and are also now running heated air over the blower, which reduces the cooling.

I can't speak on your install, but I avoided the LP furnace backfeeding the wood furnace by a power close/spring open damper in the duct connecting the wood supply to the main supply truck of the house.  I avoided the wood furnace backfeeding the LP furnace by a simple gravity damper in the plenum of the LP furnace.

I just wanted to make sure my system was setup to automatically deal with any combination of events which may occur.  Some may consider it overkill, but relays are cheap and are easy to wire.


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## TDD11

JRHAWK9 said:


> In those cases where one does not have large enough supply ducts to support the sheer volume of air two blowers running simultaneously will put out, I would agree.  This sounds like the issue you would have.


I agree that my ducts just aren't large enough to support multiple blowers. 



JRHAWK9 said:


> The reason I'm telling you this is, try to get your cold air intake off the basement floor.  It should increase your supply temps with very little affect on the heated basement temps.  At least in my experience anyway.
> 
> Also, I firmly believe that any warm air wood furnace, regardless of brand, can benefit from taking the time and experimenting with return/supply air.  I found out by simply adding the blower controller to mine that my house LOVES low volume/higher temp supply air.  I have my blower slowed down quite a bit to the point I really can't go any slower with a sleeved bearing motor.  Every time I slowed it down more I saw positive results.


How do you account for a power outage? I would think that setup would reduce the heat rise through the stove during a power outage.



KC Matt said:


> I'm more convinced by the day that having separate ductwork is the way to go.  In my case adding the second run would be very difficult, but if I could manage a couple of supply runs, the two furnaces could share a return duct in my mind.  When the gas comes on, the Tundra is cycling on and off of low speed and the two would be pulling the same direction.  There is just no good way to install the duct runs.


Exactly my thoughts. Still mulling over ideas as far as how to run the ducts if I go through with this. I may have a HVAC contractor in soon, as soon as this cold temps let up and their work load reduces. Like I mentioned, the worst part of this setup would be the trunk duct running through the basement below the floor joists.

Here's a basement picture showing the actual setup.


----------



## brenndatomu

Just FYI. Most blower motors are only rated to operate in 100-105*F ambient air...max...so backfeeding = bad


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## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> How do you account for a power outage? I would think that setup would reduce the heat rise through the stove during a power outage.



I don't see it any different than having the cold air tied into the main trunk.  The vertical rise when doing that is even more than just going to the basement ceiling.  The furnace is UL listed for gravity flow.  The manual mentions just removing the filter to aide in airflow.



brenndatomu said:


> Just FYI. Most blower motors are only rated to operate in 100-105*F ambient air...max...so backfeeding = bad



yep, I know I looked into this when reclaiming radiant heat.  I wanted to make sure I was not exceeding the temp it was designed to run in.


----------



## JRHAWK9

TDD11 said:


> I agree that my ducts just aren't large enough to support multiple blowers.



Have you tried it and measured your SP?  

You could always check your heat rise on your LP furnace and potentially use a different speed tap on the LP motor to slow that down some as long as it still remains in the range as stated on your furnace's data tag.  You'd be gaining efficiency in your LP furnace if you could go down a speed tap or two and at the same time decrease the volume of air coming from the LP furnace.  This may be enough to allow you to run the two blowers simultaneously.  I was able to go from using the medium-high speed tap to the low speed tap on my LP furnace and still stay in the middle of the heat rise range.  Doing this allows both blowers to run on low and still only see a SP of 0.4" even with 5 out of my 13 registers closed during winter (3 downstairs and 2 in the loft I keep closed all winter).   

You could then simply put a gravity damper in the plenum of your LP furnace and call it a day.


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## KC Matt

There may be a powered damper solution that would work in my setup.  Honeywell makes an ARD-6TZ powered round damper that can be normally open or normally closed and a rectangular ZD14x24TZ.  The rectangular damper appears to fit within the 14x24 footprint which is the only way for me; there's no room for overhang.

Now the problem comes when the house temp is dropping at the end of the burn, but the Tundra is cycling on and off, so is the gas furnace.  You would have to somehow ensure the Tundra could unload it's heat so would you adjust the dampers to allow some flow in the closed position?  Maybe set up a relay that allowed the Tundra to open one of the 6" dampers when the fan comes on regardless of the gas furnace?

It would be so much easier to have separate ductwork but it's not in the cards for me.


----------



## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> Now the problem comes when the house temp is dropping at the end of the burn, but the Tundra is cycling on and off, so is the gas furnace.  You would have to somehow ensure the Tundra could unload it's heat so would you adjust the dampers to allow some flow in the closed position?  Maybe set up a relay that allowed the Tundra to open one of the 6" dampers when the fan comes on regardless of the gas furnace?



Not a problem at all.  Simply wire up the dampers, via a relay, to be closed only when the LP furnace is the only unit running.   All other times they will remain open.

The wiring below assumes you have a 120Vac EAC (electric air cleaner) circuit on your LP furnace's circuit board you can connect to.  It also requires a POWER closed/SPRING open damper.  You don't want a power open damper as in a power failure it would remain closed.  This is how you would wire it so the only time the damper would close would be when the LP blower motor is the ONLY unit running (in both heat and AC modes).  All other times the damper(s) will remain open, IE. when the wood furnace blower circuit is active, both LP and wood furnaces blowers are active or if there's a power failure.


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## KC Matt

Looking at the system, it appears that only one damper needs to be closed at a time.  When the gas furnace is running, the return duct must be open, while the wood furnace supply must be closed.  Conversely, when the wood furnace is running, the return damper must be closed and the wood furnace supply must be open.  

So when the gas furnace is running _and_ the wood furnace is running, the return side must be open, but, depending on the interaction between the two blowers, at least one of the supply dampers from the Tundra must be open.  I would guess that when the Tundra blower is on the 3 tap both dampers would need to be open while on the 1 tap one damper would be adequate.  

Add another complication: I have an insert in the basement and plan to use the blowers of the two furnaces to help distribute the heat from the insert.


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## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> Looking at the system, it appears that only one damper needs to be closed at a time.  When the gas furnace is running, the return duct must be open, while the wood furnace supply must be closed.  Conversely, when the wood furnace is running, the return damper must be closed and the wood furnace supply must be open.
> 
> So when the gas furnace is running _and_ the wood furnace is running, the return side must be open, but, depending on the interaction between the two blowers, at least one of the supply dampers from the Tundra must be open.  I would guess that when the Tundra blower is on the 3 tap both dampers would need to be open while on the 1 tap one damper would be adequate.
> 
> Add another complication: I have an insert in the basement and plan to use the blowers of the two furnaces to help distribute the heat from the insert.




Oh, so your wood furnace IS hooked up to the house's return air duct then?  If so, I would not recommend both furnaces be running at the same time if they share the same return duct.


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## sloeffle

JRHAWK9 said:


> Oh, so your wood furnace IS hooked up to the house's return air duct then?  If so, I would not recommend both furnaces be running at the same time if they share the same return duct.


I agree with you one-hundred percent @JRHAWK9. Both of my furnaces are hooked into my return ducting and I cannot run them both at the same time. There is not enough return air. The few times I have them together I will take the back off of the wood furnace so it pulls in the air from the basement.


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## sloeffle

Finally put the Caddy to bed last night and fired up the geothermal furnace for the first time in at least 3 weeks. Generally I only run the wood furnace when I get home from work if temps are <30 or so. We will run it 24x7 on weekends if the temps are low enough. Even though we have had it for 5 years I am still a little hesitant on running when I am not home. During this long cold snap I'd say I have burned around 1/2 a cord of wood or so. We generally burn around 2 cords a year. Temperatures in house were generally between 65 ( early morning ) and 72 ( mid-afternoon ). One morning I woke up and the house was 63 but that was my own fault because I let the furnace go for 11 hours without a refill with outside temps around 3 - 5F. 

I am glad to see the cold snap come to an end. It is supposed to be 54F here on Thursday.


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## TDD11

The cold snap definitely shortened my current basement wood supply by at least a week or 2. I was home the past 5 days, and found it much easier to maintain 68 by loading the stove every 5-6 hours around the clock, when flue temps got down to around 250°F. I really had a huge bed of coals by Friday though. 

I'm glad to see the brutal cold temps subside for now, although I do not care for the >30°F warmup right now. I just got over being sick, and want to go ice fishing


----------



## KC Matt

JRHAWK9 said:


> Oh, so your wood furnace IS hooked up to the house's return air duct then?  If so, I would not recommend both furnaces be running at the same time if they share the same return duct.



Yes it is.  Otherwise the furnace would be trying to heat outdoor air. 

I'm not trying to run both at the same time, I'm trying to make it switch between the two as needed.  When the gas furnace comes on, it will be because the wood furnace has died and will either be off or on the low position.  I've run the gas furnace while the Tundra was cycling on low and it didn't seem like anything was off though the volume on the supply was noticeably higher.  The filter housing on the gas furnace has a cheap manometer type device and it doesn't indicate much restriction on the return side with both running.

I could rig up a heat dump where when the gas furnace is running and the Tundra kicks on, it dumps the heat from the tundra into the garage.  In that case the return damper would be open though.  As low as the Tundra cfm is, I don't see how it makes a big impact on the gas furnace or vice versa.


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## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> Yes it is.  Otherwise the furnace would be trying to heat outdoor air.



Sorry, I'm mixing up who's who here.  I really need to pay more attention to who I'm replying to..lol


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## maple1

KC Matt said:


> Yes it is.  Otherwise the furnace would be trying to heat outdoor air.



How so?


----------



## KC Matt

maple1 said:


> How so?



My furnace is in the garage which has leaky old doors and the door to the house is closed.  Without the return air hooked up, it would pull 100% of the air from outside, in addition to freezing the two bedrooms above the garage.  The return air is a necessity in my case.


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## maple1

Ah, OK. Didn't realize your furnace was outside the envelope.


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## JRHAWK9

Has anybody else noticed the Tundra's are no longer on Menard's website?


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## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> Has anybody else noticed the Tundra's are no longer on Menard's website?


I did. None on display at the local store either. Drolet still lists them as a dealer though...


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## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> I did. None on display at the local store either. Drolet still lists them as a dealer though...



Menards seems to be more interested in pushing the Shelter stuff.  Locally no Drolet furnaces in stock since they closed out the original Tundra.
I was always hoping for a good deal on the Heat Pro but not in the cards I suspect.


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## jacksnipe

JRHAWK9 said:


> It's not just the Tundra's which work better with a variable speed blower controller, pretty much ALL solid fuel burning furnaces can benefit from one.  Your fossil fuel furnace's blower is setup with a certain heat rise, meaning the delta between return air and supply air.  The larger this heat rise the more efficient the heat transfer will be, as long as it stays within the specs found on the data tag.  When your fossil fuel furnace runs, it's pretty much putting out the same BTU's over the timeframe it's running.  So one blower speed works fine for that.  Our wood burning furnaces don't, they ramp up and down over the course of a burn cycle.  So at the very beginning (cold light) and end of the burn cycle you will have a very small heat rise with a static rpm blower and it will be cycling off/on with very inconsistent and dropping supply temps.  Adding a variable speed controller will increase this heat rise by varying blower speed based on heat output and will keep the blower running MUCH longer at the end of the burn with consistent supply temps.  This will increase delivered efficiency towards the end of the burn cycle.
> 
> I added one to my Kuuma last winter and it DID make a difference, especially at the end of the burn cycle.


 Could it be possible to install one of these variable speed controllers on a heat pro furnace installed in a 1900 sq. Ft shop


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## JRHAWK9

jacksnipe said:


> Could it be possible to install one of these variable speed controllers on a heat pro furnace installed in a 1900 sq. Ft shop



I don't see why not.  It's very similar to the Tundra, AFAIK.


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## jacksnipe

JRHAWK9 said:


> I don't see why not.  It's very similar to the Tundra, AFAIK.


I don't have the slightest idea on how to hook up one of these units to control the blower speeds, The heat pro unit is programmed to run at a certain speed which is imbedded on the factory chip wired to the blower. The blower has a tendency to run & shut off to much during the burn cycle..


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## motoguy

Highbeam said:


> It’s discouraging for those of us that might want to move to a furnace to think that we have to become parts chasing electrical engineers just to get these furnaces to function safely and efficiently. It’s not a cost issue if even the kuumas need these upgrades.



We're in the 2nd year of heating using our Kuuma VF100.  I LOVE it.  Our house is above it's rated sq/f capacity (I think it's rated at about 3500sq/f, we're right around 4k sq/f), with high basement ceilings (~10ft) and tall vaulted ceilings upstairs.  So, a little past rated capacity on sq/footage, but likely far above capacity on cubic volume.

We use the Kuuma in conjuction with our existing LP furnace.  My Kuuma install is thus far very basic...I plopped it down, and ran the supplied t-stat to it.  I also ran a manometer.  That's all.  I have done none of the tips/tricks to increase efficiency/add output.  Things like scavenging heat from the front of the stove for the incoming air supply, relocating plenum t-stat, and others (which I've now forgotten...I'd have to search here to find them).  In addition, I'm still burning wood that I cut 3 years ago, before I knew the "preferred" sizing for the Kuuma.  They are mostly short (18" or so), and BIG (used to the old smoke dragon I grew up with).

The Kuuma seems to be able to handle about a 45 degree delta on it's own.  We like to keep the house at 68, with the LP set at 66.  The Kuuma handles all the heating by itself until it's in the low 20's or teens outside.  At that point, the LP starts kicking in.

I've not read all the pages of this thread.  In fact, the top portion of this page (98) us ALL I've read.  I'll go back and skim it, to see if there's useful information (I'm sure there is).  However, with a "plop it down, run the wiring to the supplied T-stat, and forget it) installation I have, I'm VERY pleased with the performance of my Kuuma.


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## motoguy

brenndatomu said:


> I don't think anybody can expect to buy a wood furnace, hook it to a chimney, connect the ducts, light it and be done...if anybody has, they just got lucky IMO...I think that almost all of them require some setup work to be optimized...and some more than others obviously...Kuuma would probably be the one that I would guess would take the least amount of work...normally anyways...



This is essentially what I did with my Kuuma.  Plopped it down in place of the old Avalon Arbor stove, raised it up on concrete blocks, and ran the flue to the existing chimney.  I added a manometer to accurately set the draft controller.  We replaced all our ductboard ducting with metal.  I adjusted the pot on the computer to increase firebox temps.  Other than that, nada. 

After taking a season to "learn" that Avalon Arbor, and being impressed with it's heat output vs volume of wood used, I wanted to move to a furnace.  However, I wanted a furnace that was close to set-and-forget.  Loading the Avalon, trying to get up to reburn temp quickly, slowly ratcheting down the damper, etc etc was time consuming.  A refill (or heaven forbid, a re-start) was a 30 minute to an hour deal.  Not conducive to waking up, loading the stove, and heading out the door to work.  I wanted something that would work that way, for convenience and so my wife/kids could safely load it.

The computer on the Kuuma effectively handles all those chores for me.  I rake the ashes out, empty the pan if necessary, pull the coals forward (push them back about 2" from the front), then load that baby up.  Make sure the doors are shut, and I'm outta here.


----------



## DoubleB

jacksnipe said:


> Could it be possible to install one of these variable speed controllers on a heat pro furnace installed in a 1900 sq. Ft shop



If I recall, the heat pro has a circuit board that automatically cycles through the 4 blower speeds to maintain temps, meaning that the circuit board has 4 output lines, each connected to one of 4 speed taps on the blower motor.  If I'm remembering that correctly, you'd probably have to insert the var spd controller between the slowest speed motor tap and circuit board output.  Heck, I'd be far more comfy doing it on a heatpro, since if the controller takes a dive then the heatpro will automatically kick in on speed 2 once the temp probe measures enough temperature.  At least that's my understanding of how it could work...


----------



## jacksnipe

brenndatomu said:


> It has been done both ways...I personally don't like the speed 1, 2, 3, 4 method because the fan still moves a lot of air on low speed and you will still get the cycling on/off...the speed control that we have been using can keep the blower running at a very low speed for hours on end at the end of the burn...it made a huge difference for me.
> You want to take the temp reading from the plenum IMO.


 This is where I am at now, I need all of the necessary items needed to get the heat pro set up. Where do I buy all of the req'd items along with part # to start this project. It sounds like we need a fan speed controller along with a 24 volt transformer or an all in one unit. Then tap into the circuit board located on the rear of the furnace. I will have to determine which terminals are for speed 1to 4


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## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> If I'm remembering that correctly, you'd probably have to insert the var spd controller between the slowest speed motor tap and circuit board output.



IMO, you don't want to cut the low speed tap on the motor.  When the low speed tap receives 65-70V it's REALLY slow and sounds HORRIBLE, at least that's what I saw on my motor when I tried it.  I'm cutting the high speed tap and it's much better.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> IMO, you don't want to cut the low speed tap on the motor.  When the low speed tap receives 65-70V it's REALLY slow and sounds HORRIBLE, at least that's what I saw on my motor when I tried it.  I'm cutting the high speed tap and it's much better.


Agreed.
I like using speed 3 or 4...it lets the blower "stretch its legs" if the furnace is making enough heat to support that much air flow...


----------



## JRHAWK9

motoguy said:


> This is essentially what I did with my Kuuma.  Plopped it down in place of the old Avalon Arbor stove, raised it up on concrete blocks, and ran the flue to the existing chimney.  I added a manometer to accurately set the draft controller.  We replaced all our ductboard ducting with metal.  I adjusted the pot on the computer to increase firebox temps.  Other than that, nada.



It will definitely work just fine like that, however, like with almost everything, one can optimize things for their exact situation.  These furnaces come from the factory able to be used in ALL sorts of different scenarios and installation parameters....from exterior/short chimneys to fully insulated ones running inside the house.  They have to be setup to work with all situations.  Some of us are just taking advantage of our situation.

It's just like running E85 in those factory flex-fuel vehicles.  They can run on it, but the vehicle in stock form is FAR from being optimized running on it.  They are using the stock fueling, compression and timing curves when all three can be optimized to take advantage of the higher octane E85 has and see better fuel economy and more horsepower.      



motoguy said:


> After taking a season to "learn" that Avalon Arbor, and being impressed with it's heat output vs volume of wood used, I wanted to move to a furnace.  However, I wanted a furnace that was close to set-and-forget.  Loading the Avalon, trying to get up to reburn temp quickly, slowly ratcheting down the damper, etc etc was time consuming.  A refill (or heaven forbid, a re-start) was a 30 minute to an hour deal.  Not conducive to waking up, loading the stove, and heading out the door to work.  I wanted something that would work that way, for convenience and so my wife/kids could safely load it.



yep, pretty much sums it up.  I can go from a stone cold furnace to walking away in under 5 minutes if I need to.


----------



## motoguy

JRHAWK9 said:


> It will definitely work just fine like that, however, like with almost everything, one can optimize things for their exact situation.  These furnaces come from the factory able to be used in ALL sorts of different scenarios and installation parameters....from exterior/short chimneys to fully insulated ones running inside the house.  They have to be setup to work with all situations.  Some of us are just taking advantage of our situation.
> 
> It's just like running E85 in those factory flex-fuel vehicles.  They can run on it, but the vehicle in stock form is FAR from being optimized running on it.  They are using the stock fueling, compression and timing curves when all three can be optimized to take advantage of the higher octane E85 has and see better fuel economy and more horsepower.



Agreed.  I intend to make these changes as we work through the basement remodel.  It has not been a priority in the past.     



JRHAWK9 said:


> yep, pretty much sums it up.  I can go from a stone cold furnace to walking away in under 5 minutes if I need to.



Yup.  I love it.


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> When the low speed tap receives 65-70V it's REALLY slow and sounds HORRIBLE, at least that's what I saw on my motor when I tried it. I'm cutting the high speed tap and it's much better.



Interesting, I used the lowest speed tap and I can't even hear the blower blowing.  But I believe you if those were your results.



brenndatomu said:


> I like using speed 3 or 4...it lets the blower "stretch its legs" if the furnace is making enough heat to support that much air flow...



For the Tundra1, I can see that.  But for the heatpro, the circuit board already kicks into high speeds if the temps start getting warm enough.  If you put the var spd controller on speed 2, 3, or 4, I'd worry that the var spd controller couldn't vary the speed once temps start to cool down, because then  as temps cool down the circuit board would switch the power to a lower speed tap anyways and bypass the var spd controller.  And if you put the var spd controller on low speed, you can always increase the min voltage quite a bit.  

But I don't have a heatpro, and I'm not using my var spd on my Tundra anyways, so it's just talk from me.


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> Interesting, I used the lowest speed tap and I can't even hear the blower blowing.  But I believe you if those were your results.



really?  even with the high speed tap my blower makes a whew, whew noise when getting down to that 65V area.  In my experience, when using the low speed tap, it's pretty much the same as giving the motor like 40V on the high speed tap.  Maybe different motors react differently though.  The reason I wanted to try the low speed tap was to see how much I could slow down my blower in order to increase the heat rise though the furnace.  As soon as the blower turned on using the low speed tap and the controller slowed it down I could tell by the noise the blower was making that is was not going to work.  It just seemed like it was turning WAY too slow.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> For the Tundra1, I can see that. But for the heatpro, the circuit board already kicks into high speeds if the temps start getting warm enough. If you put the var spd controller on speed 2, 3, or 4, I'd worry that the var spd controller couldn't vary the speed once temps start to cool down, because then as temps cool down the circuit board would switch the power to a lower speed tap anyways and bypass the var spd controller. And if you put the var spd controller on low speed, you can always increase the min voltage quite a bit.


Ah, I see where you are going there...makes sense.


----------



## Matt78

3fordasho said:


> code - description - *setting*
> HIAH - high limit alarm - *3000* (default setting)
> LoAH - low limit alarm - *255*-275
> HdAL - deviation high alarm - *3000* (default setting)
> LdAL - deviation low alarm - * -999* (default setting)
> Loc - parameter lock - * 808* (unlocks rest of parameters)
> AHYS - alarm hysteresis - *100*
> AOP - alarm output assign - *111* (default setting)
> CtrL - control mode - *onoF*
> Act - n/a - *rE* (default setting)
> P - proportion band - *30* (default setting)
> I - time of integral - *100* (default setting)
> d - time of derivative - *50.0* (default setting)
> Ctl - control period - *20* (default setting)
> CHYS - control hysteresis - *200*
> InP - thermocouple type - *5* (selects J-type thermocouple)
> Scb - input shift - * 0* (default setting)
> FILt - pv input filter - *1* (default setting)
> Fru - input hz and C or F - *60F* (60 hz , F)
> SPL - low limit of set value - *0* (default setting)
> SPH - upper limit of set value - *1000*




3fordasho, I've been experiencing some technical difficulties with my temp control. Hopping you or someone could help. What's been happening is. It's been acting like the wall timer is active all the time. Thinking this was the problem I installed a new timer but no difference. I have control set up like above except the AHYS is at 175. High limit 550 degrees. Low 250 degrees. Right now it always wants to run up to the 550 degree Mark before closing damper. Then opens around 350 degrees. Normally I believe it would open and close at 250 and 440 with timer at zero. Hopefully I explained good enough. Guess I should of wrote my settings down. And where it exactly opened and closed.


----------



## 3fordasho

Matt78 said:


> 3fordasho, I've been experiencing some technical difficulties with my temp control. Hopping you or someone could help. What's been happening is. It's been acting like the wall timer is active all the time. Thinking this was the problem I installed a new timer but no difference. I have control set up like above except the AHYS is at 175. High limit 550 degrees. Low 250 degrees. Right now it always wants to run up to the 550 degree Mark before closing damper. Then opens around 350 degrees. Normally I believe it would open and close at 250 and 440 with timer at zero. Hopefully I explained good enough. Guess I should of wrote my settings down. And where it exactly opened and closed.



Ok, First thing to check is to make sure everything is wired per the diagram I posted.  It does indeed seem that something is closing the thermostat terminals when it should not be.  With your current settings the control setting at 550F cuts power to the damper motor at 550F and with a CHYS of 200 will re-establish damper motor power at 350F.  It seems this part is working correctly.  Now with a Low alarm of 250F, the controller closes the thermostat terminals on the tundra at 250f and with a AHYS of 175 should open again at 425F.  But it appears this is not happening until you hit your control setting at 550F and cutting power to the damper motor.  So now you have to look for what is holding those thermostat terminals on the tundra closed..  could be a shorted timer/wiring, thermostat (if you have one) calling for heat or shorted thermostat wiring, damper switch on the tundra in the on position, and finally shorted low alarm contacts/wiring on the temp controller itself.  All these things (all switches) are wired in parallel with those terminals on the back of the tundra.   Begin by disconnecting each of these things one at a time until you find the culprit.


One more thing to check, the temp controller has LEDs below the digital display to indicate control and alarm contact operation. Labelled OP1 and AL1.  OP1 should be on until you hit your control setting at 550f, shut off and remain off until temps drop 550-200= 350.  AL1 should be on at 250f or less, then shut off at 250F+175=425.  If the LEDs are not acting like this you need to check your controller settings.


----------



## Digger79




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## Digger79




----------



## Digger79

moving these things is a is a pain. Takes 4 guys and a dolly to do it easily, safely without breaking crap.


----------



## trx250r87

Digger79 said:


> moving these things is a is a pain. Takes 4 guys and a dolly to do it easily, safely without breaking crap.


Thats any wood furnace this size. I used a long 4"x4" through the front door out the flue hole for moving.  First remove the air box, fan motor, glass door and clean out door to make it lighter. 

Eric

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Matt78

3fordasho said:


> Ok, First thing to check is to make sure everything is wired per the diagram I posted. It does indeed seem that something is closing the thermostat terminals when it should not be. With your current settings the control setting at 550F cuts power to the damper motor at 550F and with a CHYS of 200 will re-establish damper motor power at 350F. It seems this part is working correctly. Now with a Low alarm of 250F, the controller closes the thermostat terminals on the tundra at 250f and with a AHYS of 175 should open again at 425F. But it appears this is not happening until you hit your control setting at 550F and cutting power to the damper motor. So now you have to look for what is holding those thermostat terminals on the tundra closed.. could be a shorted timer/wiring, thermostat (if you have one) calling for heat or shorted thermostat wiring, damper switch on the tundra in the on position, and finally shorted low alarm contacts/wiring on the temp controller itself. All these things (all switches) are wired in parallel with those terminals on the back of the tundra. Begin by disconnecting each of these things one at a time until you find the culprit.
> 
> 
> One more thing to check, the temp controller has LEDs below the digital display to indicate control and alarm contact operation. Labelled OP1 and AL1. OP1 should be on until you hit your control setting at 550f, shut off and remain off until temps drop 550-200= 350. AL1 should be on at 250f or less, then shut off at 250F+175=425. If the LEDs are not acting like this you need to check your controller settings



Yelp if feel like an idiot! It was the damper switch on the tundra. To be honest I forgot it was there. I've never used it. I bet the wife flipped it so I was out of her hair for a couple days!! Sorry to make you write all that, although I wasn't sure what some of the settings were for. Thank you very much sir!!


----------



## Digger79

trx250r87 said:


> Thats any wood furnace this size. I used a long 4"x4" through the front door out the flue hole for moving.  First remove the air box, fan motor, glass door and clean out door to make it lighter.
> 
> Eric
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Are you saying you lifted the entire stove by the top heat exchanger box? I think you are. I hope you didn't stress anything or crack it. Typically these stoves are moved by the bottom. We have no issues moving them I just like to complain seeing as I have installed, uninstalled and re installed.. then un installed, moved and installed it again. lol. its getting old. haha


----------



## 3fordasho

Matt78 said:


> Yelp if feel like an idiot! It was the damper switch on the tundra. To be honest I forgot it was there. I've never used it. I bet the wife flipped it so I was out of her hair for a couple days!! Sorry to make you write all that, although I wasn't sure what some of the settings were for. Thank you very much sir!!



Once you have a timer that factory switch has no use and probably should be disconnected.  I have to admit mine is still there too but I am the only one that operates the furnace.  Glad you found the issue.


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## trx250r87

Digger79 said:


> Are you saying you lifted the entire stove by the top heat exchanger box? I think you are. I hope you didn't stress anything or crack it. Typically these stoves are moved by the bottom. We have no issues moving them I just like to complain seeing as I have installed, uninstalled and re installed.. then un installed, moved and installed it again. lol. its getting old. haha


Not entirely, but hauling it down a stairs is difficult and there isn't much room. A long piece of wood gives you more room and lets people spread out a little more. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## KC Matt

Digger79 said:


> Are you saying you lifted the entire stove by the top heat exchanger box? I think you are. I hope you didn't stress anything or crack it. Typically these stoves are moved by the bottom. We have no issues moving them I just like to complain seeing as I have installed, uninstalled and re installed.. then un installed, moved and installed it again. lol. its getting old. haha



There is a factory installed, factory designated pick point on top of the heat exchanger.  There is no better way to lift the Tundra , can't speak for the Tundra 2.


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## runnerxc

Hey Guys,
Posting here for some help.  So my Tundra developed cracks after about 2.5 years in service.  I've seen the numerous people here who have had cracks as well.  I emailed SBI about it and they said it would be covered under warranty but surprisingly they sent me this 27 page document and want me to find a welder/handyman who will come in and follow it step by step: drill a bunch of holes and weld it up and add a bunch of modified parts to my furnace (and it's supposed to take 30 minutes, seems to me it would take a lot longer than that).  I know a few people here have welded their furnaces and had maybe some success?  no success?  Anyway, I'm not sure I'm ready to accept the answer to my furnace cracking is to have a welder come in and drill and weld it back together.
What do you think?


----------



## 3fordasho

runnerxc said:


> Hey Guys,
> Posting here for some help.  So my Tundra developed cracks after about 2.5 years in service.  I've seen the numerous people here who have had cracks as well.  I emailed SBI about it and they said it would be covered under warranty but surprisingly they sent me this 27 page document and want me to find a welder/handyman who will come in and follow it step by step: drill a bunch of holes and weld it up and add a bunch of modified parts to my furnace (and it's supposed to take 30 minutes, seems to me it would take a lot longer than that).  I know a few people here have welded their furnaces and had maybe some success?  no success?  Anyway, I'm not sure I'm ready to accept the answer to my furnace cracking is to have a welder come in and drill and weld it back together.
> What do you think?



What is the serial number on your Tundra?  I've got two in the 1340's and SBI sent me updated firebrick for the front of the firebox.  That is probably the modified parts they will send.  Those may help prevent future cracking.  Others will comment on the effectiveness of a weld repair.  Mine have not cracked, probably in part to the modified firebrick, but perhaps more to the fact I have installed flue temp monitoring that prevents an overheat situation.  The factory controls allow things to get too hot during extended times the air inlet can be open in my opinion.


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## runnerxc

I had updated firebrick from the beginning.  It's sad.  I've been burning wood for a while now...ran a Daka furnace for years and that thing was a beast.  Never cracked and it used to get way hotter than the Tundra ever has.


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## brenndatomu

runnerxc said:


> Anyway, I'm not sure I'm ready to accept the answer to my furnace cracking is to have a welder come in and drill and weld it back together.
> What do you think?


How old is it?
How much trouble would it be to swap out?
If it is pretty new, or in a basement with easy access for large/bulky 500# objects, I'd tend to lean on them harder for a replacement...if it is a few years old, or in a bugger of a spot, I would lean more toward trying the repair...as long as they would still replace it if the weld/repair didn't hold. If they won't stand behind it after the repair, then I would demand a new one...my 2 cents...


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## runnerxc

It's 2.5 years old, been using it now for almost 2 full seasons.

At this point, they are saying I have to return the unit to Menards...there's no way I have the ability to do that.  Very disappointed in their customer service up to this point.  Not sure why they are not offering me the same credit/refund they did for numerous people in here.  I'm just not comfortable with a weld repair and I don't have the capability to return this thing 2 hours to Menards.


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## brenndatomu

You have to _return_ it? Yeah that's new...what the heck is Menards gonna do with it?
Sounds like you need to find a good welder...shouldn't be too hard...most community's have several. Welding it wouldn't bother me in the least...I still plan to weld mine at some point (I bought it cracked) As discussed earlier in this thread, I have been running it cracked to see if certain mods would stop the crack from growing without welding it...but it did eventually grow some over time...its has not affected the function of the furnace one bit.


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## 3fordasho

runnerxc said:


> It's 2.5 years old, been using it now for almost 2 full seasons.
> 
> At this point, they are saying I have to return the unit to Menards...there's no way I have the ability to do that.  Very disappointed in their customer service up to this point.  Not sure why they are not offering me the same credit/refund they did for numerous people in here.  I'm just not comfortable with a weld repair and I don't have the capability to return this thing 2 hours to Menards.




Will they exchange it for a newer Tundra II ?   I think they've redesigned enough to address the cracking problem, at least I hope so.


----------



## KC Matt

3fordasho said:


> Will they exchange it for a newer Tundra II ?   I think they've redesigned enough to address the cracking problem, at least I hope so.




I'm convinced the cracking was caused by the lack of a damper controller.  That's what's different about the Tundra 2.  It's also several hundred dollars more. I'll take my controller system over the T2 any day and keep a few hundred in my pocket.


----------



## KC Matt

runnerxc said:


> It's 2.5 years old, been using it now for almost 2 full seasons.
> 
> At this point, they are saying I have to return the unit to Menards...there's no way I have the ability to do that.  Very disappointed in their customer service up to this point.  Not sure why they are not offering me the same credit/refund they did for numerous people in here.  I'm just not comfortable with a weld repair and I don't have the capability to return this thing 2 hours to Menards.



So they are willing to do what if you return it to the store where you bought it?  What would you like for them to do?


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## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> There is a factory installed, factory designated pick point on top of the heat exchanger.  There is no better way to lift the Tundra , can't speak for the Tundra 2.


U mean that eyelit? Im aware its on there but my guess is that was for setting the heat exchanger. In my updated model of the Tundra 1 that had the redesign to fix the over fire issue and cracking... the heat exchanger box is somewhat free floating. I am sure its welded at some point however thru the front of the fire box the HE is completely free and expands as well moves in and out with heating. I realize steel moves when it heats however I do think part of the design of the HE is to allow for movement so it may not be a great idea to lift the entire furnace by it even if there is an eyelit hook spot on the top of it. Also it appears cracks in the HE are somewhat common as its happened to several so lifting by that section of the stove may weaken already weak welds. I guess I would try to avoid it knowing what I do about these stoves.


----------



## Digger79

KC Matt said:


> So they are willing to do what if you return it to the store where you bought it?  What would you like for them to do?


Demand a replacement and demand they ship it directly to you. Tell them they can take the old one if they want it from your house.. They won't want it. They will want you to cut or peel the serial number label off and return it to them. I never actually did and sold the old cracked one for $500. SBI will replaced it and will ship the new one right to you if you send them the proper photos of a quality install and speak to them properly. I got it done. Good luck. SBI in my opinion is great and the updated model of Tundra 1 is a great stove. Works better than the first design and doesn't over fire and crack. Give them a ear full about how they shouldn't use their customers to beta test stove models which is apparently what happened with Tundra 1. That may push them.


----------



## trx250r87

This is my 4th winter on serial #377 T1. I have all the factory upgrades and have been just useing the spa timer this year. Still no cracks!

Eric

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## 3fordasho

Variable speed blower control for the Tundra/Heatmax:

Parts required:

Totaline P251-0083H Head pressure control (Ebay)

5k, 10 turn pot https://www.mcmaster.com/#7436k31/=1be087q or EBay equivalent.

adjustable snap switch - https://www.zoro.com/value-brand-adjustable-fan-switch-90-130-6uee1/i/G3923787/

120vac to 24vac transformer similar to https://www.mcmaster.com/#7708k21/=1be9sew   (something much smaller would do)

Notes:   Mount thermistor to sheet metal above the heat exchanger. Do not just hang loosely in the heated airstream.

Set both pots to MAX on the Totaline control.

The existing fan snap switch can be replaced with the adjustable one, or just left in place and the adjustable switch wired in parallel with the existing.  The adjustable snap switch is set so it shuts down the speed control/blower when plenum temps get low and the blower motor runs slow.  The control will eventually shut it off with out the switch but in my opinion it's at too low a RPM for a bushing motor.

The 10 turn pot is to shift the operating temperature range to be suitable for plenum temps, it was originally designed for a/c condenser temps which are lower (70-100F)

You may ask yourself, why don't I just get 24VAC from the factory Tundra transformer?  DO NOT. It is shut down when the limit switch is tripped, just the time when you need the blower running the most.

The thermistor supplied with the P251-00083H is usable but I wanted something a little more substantial and used this : https://www.zoro.com/dwyer-instrume...ohm-type-2-4-in-l-te-dfn-b0448-00/i/G7609682/

Any 10K ohm Type 2 thermistor will do, I mounted mine in a block of aluminum screwed to the front most duct opening cover - see picture.

Standard disclaimer - if you blow up your blower motor or burn down your house - that's on you.  That said I'm on my 3rd season with this set up with no issues.

These diagrams apply to the original Tundra.  Tundra II and Heatpro owners have a different fan control, pretty sure this could be adapted but your wiring will be different.


----------



## sloeffle

Great write up @3fordasho.

If you don't want to have to worry about wiring up an additional 24V transformer you can also buy a unit that has a built in 24V transformer. I have the ICM326HN which has a built in 24V transformer and have been happy with it so far.


----------



## Digger79

Any suggestions for a fluid comparative to dwyers gauge oil? I inadvertantly dumped the gauge oil out and wondering if there is something else I can use/buy at a hardware that has a comparative weight to the gauge oil. I hate ordering crap on the web.


----------



## brenndatomu

Digger79 said:


> Any suggestions for a fluid comparative to dwyers gauge oil? I inadvertantly dumped the gauge oil out and wondering if there is something else I can use/buy at a hardware that has a comparative weight to the gauge oil. I hate ordering crap on the web.


You will need the red gauge oil again to be accurate...it has a specific gravity that the gauge is designed around


----------



## JRHAWK9

Digger79 said:


> I hate ordering crap on the web.



Been pretty much solely buying online since the late 90's.  I don't know how you can deal with the extreme lack of selection by limiting yourself to local retail.  I'd go nuts trying to find what I want if I didn't do the majority of my non-food shopping online.

Like mentioned above, you need to have find the right specific gravity fluid.


----------



## Digger79

JRHAWK9 said:


> Been pretty much solely buying online since the late 90's.  I don't know how you can deal with the extreme lack of selection by limiting yourself to local retail.  I'd go nuts trying to find what I want if I didn't do the majority of my non-food shopping online.
> 
> Like mentioned above, you need to have find the right specific gravity fluid.


Yeah I was hoping some wise guy on here would know the weight of the gauge oil and have a quick cheat. Ah well. I'll order it.


----------



## KC Matt

A while back we were talking about how nice it would be to have separate duct system for the wood furnace and tonight I just realized how big of a headache I have if I want to have both available at the same time. 

I was sitting in the garage watching the furnace when all of a sudden the gas furnaces' blower kicked on.  That makes no sense because the furnace is turned off.  Apparently there is a mechanism that kicks the fan on based on the heat exchanger temp independent of the thermostat setting.  Now, the ideal cure for this is to put a damper above the A coil but there is no room to do that.  So it's either shut off the wood furnace when it gets really cold, or find a creative fix.

The blower on the gas furnace is drastically more powerful than the blower on the Tundra and there is no way the Tundra could overcome the force of the gas furnace blower so I'm thinking a solution could be to shut off the Tundra blower when the gas blower is on.  Put a powered damper on both of the supply ducts which would open when the Tundra is calling for a blower, put a powered damper on the return side which opens when the gas furnace blower kicks on, and shut the tundra blower off when the gas blower is running.  Air would travel backward through the Tundra when the backup blower was running but that doesn't matter as long as the motor is shut off, right?



How nice it would be to have separate ducts.

Now, I did buy a Quadra Fire 3100i for a song and it could be of some help but nothing compared to what the Tundra could do.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> Apparently there is a mechanism that kicks the fan on based on the heat exchanger temp independent of the thermostat setting


Yeah, the fan/limit switch.
Not sure I'm following the plan with the blowers and dampers...


KC Matt said:


> I did buy a Quadra Fire 3100i for a song and it could be of some help but nothing compared to what the Tundra could do


You might be surprised...my lil Drolet 1400i (1.8 CF insert stove) will out heat the Tundra 2:1..._but,_ that it only the main floor, and a load only lasts about half as long as in Tundra


----------



## KC Matt

I posted pics a while back of my ductwork and installation that might shed some light on my dilemna  but for most of us, our installations are so specific to our wants/needs/installation/restrictions that in the end it's every man for himself.  I'm trying to make a single set of duct work serve both the gas and wood furnaces.  My setup is about the least ideal construction you could ask for.  There is no practical way to add a second set of ductwork.

So the additional challenge with the insert is that it's in the basement.  I plan to use the blower of the gas furnace to circulate the air but that requires installation of a new exterior door between the basement and garage.  Every project requires a couple other projects.  I had a smoke dragon in the same spot and it would heat the upstairs nicely if you could feed it every couple hours.  Hopefully the Quadra Fire is more efficient.  I was looking at the drolet 1800i but got the quadra fire for 1/3 the price


----------



## DoubleB

KC Matt said:


> Air would travel backward through the Tundra



If your Tundra blower is spinning backward and the gas furnace kicks off and the Tundra kicks on, that might not be good.  Also, since your gas blower is so much more volume/power than your Tundra blower, will the gas furnace blow your Tundra filter inside-out?  I don't know how big of a concern those are, but on the other hand it's those kinds of details that can sink the whole thing.

One question--currently how often do the Tundra and gas furnace want to operate at the same time?  Can you just put a powered diverter on top of the Tundra that simply dumps the Tundra's air straight into the basement during that 1% of the time they both want to operate?


----------



## KC Matt

DoubleB said:


> If your Tundra blower is spinning backward and the gas furnace kicks off and the Tundra kicks on, that might not be good.  Also, since your gas blower is so much more volume/power than your Tundra blower, will the gas furnace blow your Tundra filter inside-out?  I don't know how big of a concern those are, but on the other hand it's those kinds of details that can sink the whole thing.
> 
> One question--currently how often do the Tundra and gas furnace want to operate at the same time?  Can you just put a powered diverter on top of the Tundra that simply dumps the Tundra's air straight into the basement during that 1% of the time they both want to operate?



Great input.  I'm not sure the blower is spinning backwards since it's not visible but it could very well be.  I sure could add a third 8" powered damper that would be open when the Tundra calls for heat while the gas furnace is running but I'm not planning to at this point.  That's a good idea though.  Only down side is it's another $110 damper.

Here's what I'm planning, and I ordered the dampers an hour ago. 

Powered damper in the return side of the gas furnace that will open any time the gas furnace blower is running (or better, close when the Tundra is running).  Powered dampers in the two 8" Tundra supply side that will be open any time the Tundra is calling for blower and closed otherwise.  A relay that will shut off the W line to the gas furnace any time the Tundra is calling for the blower.  A relay that disables the Tundra blower any time the gas furnace blower is running.

If it's wired that way, the only time the conflict would cause any effect at all would be for the few seconds after the W line has been cut to the gas furnace, shutting the gas valve but leaving the blower running until the heat exchanger is cooled.  During that 30 seconds or so, the gas furnaces' blower would run and would flow air backwards through the Tundra heat exchanger which is fine, as long as the heat is being removed.   

I'm not sure about the filter blowing out, but if it did I could figure out something.  Maybe leave one 8" round damper open or something.


----------



## brenndatomu

Just make sure the Tundra dampers are powered closed, so if the power fails they will open allowing some gravity cooling of the firebox.
Also, what will keep the Tundra blower from being powered off while it is still burning if the house temp drops and the gas furnace kicks on?


----------



## KC Matt

brenndatomu said:


> Just make sure the Tundra dampers are powered closed, so if the power fails they will open allowing some gravity cooling of the firebox.
> Also, what will keep the Tundra blower from being powered off while it is still burning if the house temp drops and the gas furnace kicks on?



More good advice.  Yes, the Honeywell dampers are set up as powered closed and they are industrial duty. I figure on replacing the motors and relays on a regular schedule- maybe every 5 years?.  To the bigger question, yes the Tundra blower can be powered off while it has a blower call when the gas furnace is running.  That would only happen when the gas furnace had been cut off and was relieving the residual heat in the heat exchanger.  As soon as the heat exhanger has been cooled, which according to my brother, is about 30 seconds, the blower turns off and at that point the Tundra blower comes on.  During that time the Tundra blower would be off, but air would be flowing across the heat exchanger from the gas furnace blower.  Granted the air would be going backward through the heat exchanger but we aren't talking about an airplane.  This heat exchanger isn't sophisticated and any airflow will remove the heat.  If the gas furnace blower isn't sufficient to remove that heat, the factory snap disk would shut down the damper.  From my observation, the gas furnace blower has many times the power of the tundra blower and it definitely draws more air over the Tundra heat exchanger than the factory blower does.

It's a work in progress to be sure.


----------



## DoubleB

I can't say there are any problems with it, just that I would get nervous in my own house with intentionally cutting power to the blower on a wood-burning appliance with a big fire.  All the extra controls/relays make sense to ensure intended operation but then they also have a knack for causing unintended things to happen.  At least that's my experience.

As you proceed, you might keep in the back of your mind how to design/build the system to make it easy to switch to plan B if either you or the insurance company want to.


----------



## sloeffle

KC Matt said:


> More good advice.  Yes, the Honeywell dampers are set up as powered closed and they are industrial duty. I figure on replacing the motors and relays on a regular schedule- maybe every 5 years?.


The motors on both of my Honeywell dampers died after two years due to heat. Their damper motor design is horrible. Essentially the motor has to be powered on all of the time ( the motor will get very hot after a while of being on ) to overcome the resistance of the return spring.

Instead of buying their crap again I found a guy on eBay who sold Belimo damper motors. It is a much better design. The gentleman that I worked with over the phone was very helpful too.


----------



## wwells48

I have a topic about this unit open but I’m new here and maybe this is where all the discussion is held so here’s my post. 

Hello everyone,

I am new to the forums but have been reading a bunch of post about the Drolet Tundra but haven’t seen an answer to my question yet. So here it is not going to bs anybody here I’m just looking for help/answers. I am considering buying a tundra unit however I have an unenclosed basement. Meaning I can see daylight and my duct work under the house. (Self explanatory I know sorry just want to make sure there’s no confusion) anyhow not going to drag this on but is there anyway that I could make a tundra work down there? I am mechanically inclined and a Do it yourselfer but I want to make sure I got a plan before I purchase this thing also what’s the best way to hook it up so it uses the housing duct work.

Thanks, for all the future help!


----------



## 3fordasho

wwells48 said:


> I have a topic about this unit open but I’m new here and maybe this is where all the discussion is held so here’s my post.
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am new to the forums but have been reading a bunch of post about the Drolet Tundra but haven’t seen an answer to my question yet. So here it is not going to bs anybody here I’m just looking for help/answers. I am considering buying a tundra unit however I have an unenclosed basement. Meaning I can see daylight and my duct work under the house. (Self explanatory I know sorry just want to make sure there’s no confusion) anyhow not going to drag this on but is there anyway that I could make a tundra work down there? I am mechanically inclined and a Do it yourselfer but I want to make sure I got a plan before I purchase this thing also what’s the best way to hook it up so it uses the housing duct work.
> 
> Thanks, for all the future help!




I have a Tundra in the insulated basement of my house, and one in the office area of my work shop.  There is a good deal of radiant heat off of the front of these units, heat that you can use if the furnace is installed in the conditioned area.  In your case it sounds like that heat would be lost to the outdoors.  The other area of concern would be your duct work itself. In your case it would have to be well insulated, or same deal, any losses from the duct work go right outside.

edit - all ducting should be insulated, meaning return and supply.  The furnace itself has no insulation so there would be some losses there (sides and top)  I would not even consider this type of install where I am located (Minnesota) but in a milder climate it may work.  A picture of the area you would like to install it would help.  Do you have existing chimney near by, do you have good access to bring wood to the furnace, etc.?


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> The motors on both of my Honeywell dampers died after two years due to heat. Their damper motor design is horrible. Essentially the motor has to be powered on all of the time ( the motor will get very hot after a while of being on ) to overcome the resistance of the return spring.
> 
> Instead of buying their crap again I found a guy on eBay who sold Belimo damper motors. It is a much better design. The gentleman that I worked with over the phone was very helpful too.



Beat me to it.  The link below is where I bought my whole custom made to my dimensions damper assembly from using a Belimo motor.  The owner of the company told me right off the bat NOT to use a Honeywell motor.

The owner was extremely helpful in making sure I was getting what I wanted for my situation.

https://www.retrozone.com/

This is the guy I dealt with:


----------



## brenndatomu

wwells48 said:


> I have a topic about this unit open but I’m new here and maybe this is where all the discussion is held so here’s my post.
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I am new to the forums but have been reading a bunch of post about the Drolet Tundra but haven’t seen an answer to my question yet. So here it is not going to bs anybody here I’m just looking for help/answers. I am considering buying a tundra unit however I have an unenclosed basement. Meaning I can see daylight and my duct work under the house. (Self explanatory I know sorry just want to make sure there’s no confusion) anyhow not going to drag this on but is there anyway that I could make a tundra work down there? I am mechanically inclined and a Do it yourselfer but I want to make sure I got a plan before I purchase this thing also what’s the best way to hook it up so it uses the housing duct work.
> 
> Thanks, for all the future help!


Wow, that's a new one. How hard would it be to enclose this area?
Right off the bat it doesn't sound like a situation that would tend to lend itself to great success...but who knows, it you insulate the heck outta everything....maybe? As @3fordasho has mentioned above, there is a TON of radiant heat coming off these things...I'd guess 1/3 of the total heat to the house comes from just having thing "heating" the basement.
How big is your house? Is it well insulated?


----------



## wwells48

brenndatomu said:


> Wow, that's a new one. How hard would it be to enclose this area?
> Right off the bat it doesn't sound like a situation that would tend to lend itself to great success...but who knows, it you insulate the heck outta everything....maybe? As @3fordasho has mentioned above, there is a TON of radiant heat coming off these things...I'd guess 1/3 of the total heat to the house comes from just having thing "heating" the basement.
> How big is your house? Is it well insulated?



It wouldn’t be extremely hard to close, But would take a little work. I will have to take a picture of the basement itself so you can get an idea.  The house is a 2200 square ft ranch home. The insulation is mediocre since it was built in the 70s but has had some newer updates for insulation. However the basement is not very big, but big enough to house a tundra unit and wood for storage. The picture will tell, all it’s being used for storage now so it’s a tad messy but you’ll get an idea. There is a chimney from the fireplace that’s about 10-15 ft away I’ll post later tonight when I get off work. Thanks for the input  everyone


----------



## sloeffle

JRHAWK9 said:


> The owner of the company told me right off the bat NOT to use a Honeywell motor.
> 
> The owner was extremely helpful in making sure I was getting what I wanted for my situation.
> 
> https://www.retrozone.com/


Same place I got mine from. The owner seems like a good guy. He was super helpful, I wish more business owners were like that.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Same place I got mine from. The owner seems like a good guy. He was super helpful, I wish more business owners were like that.


Unfortunately it seems to be getting more uncommon to find a business that acts like they even _want_ your business!


----------



## wwells48

brenndatomu said:


> Wow, that's a new one. How hard would it be to enclose this area?
> Right off the bat it doesn't sound like a situation that would tend to lend itself to great success...but who knows, it you insulate the heck outta everything....maybe? As @3fordasho has mentioned above, there is a TON of radiant heat coming off these things...I'd guess 1/3 of the total heat to the house comes from just having thing "heating" the basement.
> How big is your house? Is it well insulated?



Here is the pics I promised excuse the mess it’s a relatives stuff, soon to be removed. Do you see what I mean by open the top part of the brick  is like 3 ft from the floor of the home


----------



## sloeffle

@wwells48 I would NOT tie the wood furnace directly into flex duct. You are setting yourself up for a disaster. Wood furnaces should be tied into metal ducting for at the least the first 10 - 20 feet, preferably all duct work is metal. This is done in case the power goes out you. Flex duct can handle high temps but my guess is that it can do that when the air is moving is not stagnant like it is during a power outage.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> This is done in case the power goes out you. Flex duct can handle high temps


Flex duct is only good for 200*...a wood furnace can hit that in a heartbeat if the power goes out right after a reload.
Yeah the only way that I would install a furnace down there would be if it was closed in and insulated.


----------



## DoubleB

Although, this is South Carolina and seeing as there's no insulation in the floor I wonder if the basement, even if "open", is as cold as we're used to.  @brenndatomu is the man in my opinion, I just don't know enough to say it's a bad idea.


----------



## brenndatomu

I just know how hard it was to get my Tundra to heat the house properly with an enclosed basement and a house that has decent insulation and air sealing. Although it doesn't get as cold in SC, I still think this install is gonna be a real challenge...but you are welcome to prove me wrong @wwells48  (gotta document with pics and keep us updated though...)


----------



## wwells48

brenndatomu said:


> I just know how hard it was to get my Tundra to heat the house properly with an enclosed basement and a house that has decent insulation and air sealing. Although it doesn't get as cold in SC, I still think this install is gonna be a real challenge...but you are welcome to prove me wrong @wwells48  (gotta document with pics and keep us updated though...)




That’s just the thing not sure if I want to make the investment. However somethings got to give, I am getting hit with 350 dollar gas bills. If this don’t pan out I’m looking at doing an insert with the fireplaces but not sure if the efficiency and output of heat would be worth the cost. The tundra looks like a very efficient unit that could output a lot of heat for my conditions. Just need some guidance here if it’s a go or no go. Thanks!


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## brenndatomu

What do you have for a fireplace and chimney? What is the house layout? Our Drolet 1400i insert stove will out heat the Tundra hands down...BUT, since the firebox it is half the size, it is also half the burn time, AND it only heats the ground floor...floors get cold because the basement is cold, and it doesn't distribute the heat through the house as evenly as the furnace can/does...but a stove might possibly be a better option for you, dunno, need more info and/or some pics of your setup and floorplan/sq. footage to advise further...


----------



## brenndatomu

wwells48 said:


> However somethings got to give, I am getting hit with 350 dollar gas bills. If this don’t pan out I’m looking at doing an insert with the fireplaces but not sure if the efficiency and output of heat would be worth the cost


Even if you can't heat the house 100% with a stove, it can/will still take a huge bite outta your heating bill. A modern stove, even though much simpler than a wood furnace, (cheaper too!) is still pretty efficient. With a forced air furnace there are always losses in the duct work, it would be even worse in your situation...using air to transport heat is actually not very efficient. With a stove you also get the benefit of the radiant heat directly to the living area...which you would lose all that with an open basement.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Personally, I would not do a wood furnace in that situation for reasons listed above.  Way too many unknowns related to performance, let along not having metal ducts.  I would do a stand alone stove.  It can't get all too cold in S. Carolina.


----------



## KC Matt

sloeffle said:


> The motors on both of my Honeywell dampers died after two years due to heat. Their damper motor design is horrible. Essentially the motor has to be powered on all of the time ( the motor will get very hot after a while of being on ) to overcome the resistance of the return spring.
> 
> Instead of buying their crap again I found a guy on eBay who sold Belimo damper motors. It is a much better design. The gentleman that I worked with over the phone was very helpful too.



Well that's a drag.  My 8" dampers shipped today.  How much did this guy charge and what did you buy?  Do you have him retrofit the motors or does he provide the ductwork?

My supply temp is 105 or less what was yours?  My 14x24 damper hasn't shipped yet and it's a return side unit.  Should I be looking for other options?

EDIT: I see the dampers you're talking about on ebay and I messaged the seller to see if he can make the 14x24 a hair small so it would fit inside the duct.  It appears that they make the dampers to order so hopefully it would be possible to do.  If so, that would greatly simplify this process. 

So you would wire these to normally be open but close on demand and then open again.  Just this week the power was disabled for nearby construction while the Tundra was going.  Not sure what happened as I was at work but everything seems to be in order.


----------



## wwells48

brenndatomu said:


> What do you have for a fireplace and chimney? What is the house layout? Our Drolet 1400i insert stove will out heat the Tundra hands down...BUT, since the firebox it is half the size, it is also half the burn time, AND it only heats the ground floor...floors get cold because the basement is cold, and it doesn't distribute the heat through the house as evenly as the furnace can/does...but a stove might possibly be a better option for you, dunno, need more info and/or some pics of your setup and floorplan/sq. footage to advise further...




I made a layout of my home to the best of my knowledge and paint skills lol don’t judge haha! I have 2 fire places you’ll see them in my picture they are the red markers. I know the fire place has clay tile in the living room up he chimney and seems to be older than the one in the great room. The great room fireplace has chain mail curtain and glass doors to shut it. I believe that part of the home was an addition.

For some reason the site would not let me upload the photo so here is a link.


----------



## brenndatomu

wwells48 said:


> I made a layout of my home to the best of my knowledge and paint skills lol don’t judge haha! I have 2 fire places you’ll see them in my picture they are the red markers. I know the fire place has clay tile in the living room up he chimney and seems to be older than the one in the great room. The great room fireplace has chain mail curtain and glass doors to shut it. I believe that part of the home was an addition.
> 
> For some reason the site would not let me upload the photo so here is a link.



Looks to me like that interior FP would do nicely...might hafta throw a stainless liner in the chimney, but all in all still probably cheaper than a furnace install.


----------



## wwells48

brenndatomu said:


> Looks to me like that interior FP would do nicely...might hafta throw a stainless liner in the chimney, but all in all still probably cheaper than a furnace install.



The only thing is I defiantly would want to have the fire inside an insert or behind closed doors. One of the reasons I haven’t used it is because when I moved In not to long ago, They had literally laid carpet everywhere cheap Berber rug. Plans were to pull it up because the floors under are beautiful hard wood. But life happened, wife had a baby so we left the crap carpet in. Its always been a scare with carpet so close and a baby on the run to have an open fireplace like that. Some of the heat exchangers that sit inside the fireplace are nice but again open fires. So I was wanting an insert with a door. But just looking at my house layout what do you think the coverage of heat would be like from the living room fire place?


----------



## JRHAWK9

wwells48 said:


> The only thing is I defiantly would want to have the fire inside an insert or behind closed doors. One of the reasons I haven’t used it is because when I moved In not to long ago, They had literally laid carpet everywhere cheap Berber rug. Plans were to pull it up because the floors under are beautiful hard wood. But life happened, wife had a baby so we left the crap carpet in. Its always been a scare with carpet so close and a baby on the run to have an open fireplace like that. Some of the heat exchangers that sit inside the fireplace are nice but again open fires. So I was wanting an insert with a door. But just looking at my house layout what do you think the coverage of heat would be like from the living room fire place?



A HE (high efficiency) insert is pretty much nothing but a stand alone stove made to fit inside the opening of a fireplace.  By code, you will probably have to extend the area in front of the opening with some brick or something.  
Here's a video showing an example.


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## brenndatomu

Oh yeah, you would want an insert stove in there no doubt! An open fireplace is single digit efficiency, if you are lucky!
Whats the dimensions of the fireplace? W/H/D, and the W/H at the back too. Looks kinda small from the pic.
You would have to come up with some sort of hearth right in front of the FP...and some stoves have more rigid requirements then others.
And as far as keeping the kiddos away from the stove, what I did was to fab up a steel plate that the stove sits on, the plate has tubes that act as receivers for brackets on my screen to slide into. I just took an el cheapo fireplace screen that I found on clearance at lowes, welded brackets to it to make it mate up to the plate...that way if the kids bumped it or grabbed it, it was not gonna go anywhere. It has to be picked up and slide straight back to get to the stove (air adjustments can be made from above without removing the screen)
Your LR FP looks to be kinda central in the house, so it should do a decent job, every house is different though, some work out with stove heating better than others, the closer to the stove the warmer it will be...generally you can move heat around by running a small fan on low at the far corners of the house, the fan on the floor pointing toward the stove. Works pretty good for us using just one fan...the bedrooms stay cooler, by that's fine too. Like I mentioned before, even if you can't go 100% wood heat, would still knock the heat bill down by a very large number!
You probably should open up a thread of your own over in the stove forum...you'll get tons more help on this topic than here in the boiler room...kinda getting off topic for the Tundra thread anyways. You can post a link of the thread here, anybody interested can follow you there. Feel free to continue to post any Tundra questions here though!


----------



## wwells48

brenndatomu said:


> Oh yeah, you would want an insert stove in there no doubt! An open fireplace is single digit efficiency, if you are lucky!
> Whats the dimensions of the fireplace? W/H/D, and the W/H at the back too. Looks kinda small from the pic.
> You would have to come up with some sort of hearth right in front of the FP...and some stoves have more rigid requirements then others.
> And as far as keeping the kiddos away from the stove, what I did was to fab up a steel plate that the stove sits on, the plate has tubes that act as receivers for brackets on my screen to slide into. I just took an el cheapo fireplace screen that I found on clearance at lowes, welded brackets to it to make it mate up to the plate...that way if the kids bumped it or grabbed it, it was not gonna go anywhere. It has to be picked up and slide straight back to get to the stove (air adjustments can be made from above without removing the screen)
> Your LR FP looks to be kinda central in the house, so it should do a decent job, every house is different though, some work out with stove heating better than others, the closer to the stove the warmer it will be...generally you can move heat around by running a small fan on low at the far corners of the house, the fan on the floor pointing toward the stove. Works pretty good for us using just one fan...the bedrooms stay cooler, by that's fine too. Like I mentioned before, even if you can't go 100% wood heat, would still knock the heat bill down by a very large number!
> You probably should open up a thread of your own over in the stove forum...you'll get tons more help on this topic than here in the boiler room...kinda getting off topic for the Tundra thread anyways. You can post a link of the thread here, anybody interested can follow you there. Feel free to continue to post any Tundra questions here though!



I agree, we are definitely getting off topic sorry. I will take your advice and probably go with the fireplace insert, looking like a better option. I just had big dreams with the tundra unit lol. I appreciate all the help from you and everyone eles. Being new here you guys helped me out a bunch. Everyone made me feel welcomed and like I been part of community for awhile. Big thanks again!


----------



## sloeffle

KC Matt said:


> Well that's a drag. My 8" dampers shipped today. How much did this guy charge and what did you buy? Do you have him retrofit the motors or does he provide the ductwork?


Personally, I'd just use the Honeywell motors until they die.

I bought two of the 24V TFB24 motors to replace the Honeywell motors when they died. I couldn't find a link to the Belimo motor on his web site but I am sure he will have them. I think I paid around $100 a piece along with the retrofit kit. The retrofit kit is just a 1/2" steel shaft that he mills one end out to go over the exiting damper shaft and then there is a threaded set screw that keeps it in place.

I bought my dampers from Supply House or somewhere else. It wasn't until the motors went out did I find retrozone.com. I have a 20x20 that sits on top of my furnace and then a 14" round damper coming out of the wood furnace. My regular furnace is a geothermal furnace so there is no A coil to deal with. 



KC Matt said:


> My supply temp is 105 or less what was yours? My 14x24 damper hasn't shipped yet and it's a return side unit. Should I be looking for other options?


No idea. My furnace is tied into the duct work on my house. When we had our addition built I had the HVAC contractor setup the wood furnace. He had manual dampers ( because they are cheap ) in the setup and I switched them over to powered dampers because I am lazy.



KC Matt said:


> So you would wire these to normally be open but close on demand and then open again. Just this week the power was disabled for nearby construction while the Tundra was going. Not sure what happened as I was at work but everything seems to be in order.


 My dampers are wired to an external 24V power supply. The external 24V power supply is powered by the wire going to the motor. So when the motor on the wood furnace starts the damper on the geo furnace closes. The damper from the wood stove is always open. The 14" round damper is wired into the geo furnace. When the geo furnace kicks on, it closes.

The bad part about my setup is that I cannot run both furnaces without some manual intervention. I am sure one of the electrical wizards ( @JRHAWK9 or @brenndatomu ) could probably figure out a relay setup that could make that happen though.


----------



## KC Matt

I was able to cancel the Honeywell dampers so I ordered three from dampers direct.  It doesn't make much sense to spend $300 to upgrade these motors when the whole batch of dampers was $420 and the new ones were $450.  Plus they are made 1/8" smaller than the duct size so they will drop into the existing duct, saving a TON of work.    I also don't have to buy a new transformer and wire it since I already upgraded the Tundra transformer and it will run these. 

Mine will be wired as I described a few posts back, maybe with a few tweaks so that the two furnaces run together.  The dampers should be here this weekend.  The last part to install my Quadra Fire will be here on Wednesday so we should be nice and warm next year.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> The bad part about my setup is that I cannot run both furnaces without some manual intervention. I am sure one of the electrical wizards ( @JRHAWK9 or @brenndatomu ) could probably figure out a relay setup that could make that happen though.



How did I not see this.  I don't know how the heck I got that connotation...lol  I've seen pictures of  @DoubleB 's stuff and it was WAY impressive! 

@KC Matt , I have a very crude wiring diagram which may or may not help you.  It's how I have things wired so both furnaces can play together as well as using a different speed tap on the wood furnace when the LP furnace kicks in because the speed controller has the wood blower moving so slow at that point the LP blower will backfeed it otherwise.    I believe I posted it somewhere on here.


----------



## KC Matt

JRHAWK9 said:


> How did I not see this.  I don't know how the heck I got that connotation...lol  I've seen pictures of  @DoubleB 's stuff and it was WAY impressive!
> 
> @KC Matt , I have a very crude wiring diagram which may or may not help you.  It's how I have things wired so both furnaces can play together as well as using a different speed tap on the wood furnace when the LP furnace kicks in because the speed controller has the wood blower moving so slow at that point the LP blower will backfeed it otherwise.    I believe I posted it somewhere on here.


I'd like to see that.  It would be nice to find software that allows you to build these very basic circuits .  Even the simplest programs are well beyond this application.


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## brenndatomu

Just noticed tonight that this thread is over 3 years old now...my son was only a few weeks old when I started this...now he's a sassy 3 YO!


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## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> I'd like to see that.  It would be nice to find software that allows you to build these very basic circuits .  Even the simplest programs are well beyond this application.



Here's my damper relay and how it's wired.  I only have one powered damper, and it's in the supply duct connecting the wood furnace to the main house supply duct.  I DON'T have my wood furnace cold air connected to the main house cold air.  I believe you do because your furnace is in the garage....IIRC??  In this case my diagram will only work for your supply damper, if it works at all.  It uses the 120V EAC (electric air cleaner) circuit on the LP furnace and the 120V circuit from the wood furnace's snap switch.  I have a spring open, power closed damper with a 120V motor, which ends up being powered by the EAC circuit of my furnace.  The ONLY time my damper closes is when the LP blower in the only one running.  ALL other times it remains open.  This means in summer the damper is powering close when the AC kicks in and springs open when it shuts off.

I believe for your return damper placed on your LP furnace's return duct you would want it OPEN at all times except when the wood furnace is the only one running, correct?  You would then use another relay and swap the positions of the EAC and snap switch leads and then the ONLY time the damper closes would be when the wood blower is the only one running.  ALL other times it would remain open.




This is the wiring for my three relay wood furnace blower motor control.  It's VERY messy, sorry.  The wood furnace blower is under control of the speed control (which is powering the high speed winding on the blower) at all times -except- when the LP furnace is also running at the same time.  When the LP kicks in AND the wood blower is still active, then the wood furnace's blower's low speed winding is given 120V instead of the speed control.  This was done because whenever the LP kicks in the wood furnace's blower is running very slow at the end of a burn.  The LP's blower then backfeeds the wood furnaces blower.  Not good!  Adding that relay rectifies that situation, as then both blowers are running on low speed.  I also have wired up a fail-safe in case the speed control stops working.  In this case I have a second 200° snap switch installed in my plenum.  If plenum temps ever get that high and that snap switch ever closes, it will take power away from the speed control and send it to the low speed winding of the wood furnace blower.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> Just noticed tonight that this thread is over 3 years old now...my son was only a few weeks old when I started this...now he's a sassy 3 YO!


And the best part is, everyone is civil and people treat each other like they are human beings.


----------



## KC Matt

JRHAWK9 said:


> Here's my damper relay and how it's wired.  I only have one powered damper, and it's in the supply duct connecting the wood furnace to the main house supply duct.  I DON'T have my wood furnace cold air connected to the main house cold air.  I believe you do because your furnace is in the garage....IIRC??  In this case my diagram will only work for your supply damper, if it works at all.  It uses the 120V EAC (electric air cleaner) circuit on the LP furnace and the 120V circuit from the wood furnace's snap switch.  I have a spring open, power closed damper with a 120V motor, which ends up being powered by the EAC circuit of my furnace.  The ONLY time my damper closes is when the LP blower in the only one running.  ALL other times it remains open.  This means in summer the damper is powering close when the AC kicks in and springs open when it shuts off.
> 
> I believe for your return damper placed on your LP furnace's return duct you would want it OPEN at all times except when the wood furnace is the only one running, correct?  You would then use another relay and swap the positions of the EAC and snap switch leads and then the ONLY time the damper closes would be when the wood blower is the only one running.  ALL other times it would remain open.
> 
> View attachment 222944
> 
> 
> This is the wiring for my three relay wood furnace blower motor control.  It's VERY messy, sorry.  The wood furnace blower is under control of the speed control (which is powering the high speed winding on the blower) at all times -except- when the LP furnace is also running at the same time.  When the LP kicks in AND the wood blower is still active, then the wood furnace's blower's low speed winding is given 120V instead of the speed control.  This was done because whenever the LP kicks in the wood furnace's blower is running very slow at the end of a burn.  The LP's blower then backfeeds the wood furnaces blower.  Not good!  Adding that relay rectifies that situation, as then both blowers are running on low speed.  I also have wired up a fail-safe in case the speed control stops working.  In this case I have a second 200° snap switch installed in my plenum.  If plenum temps ever get that high and that snap switch ever closes, it will take power away from the speed control and send it to the low speed winding of the wood furnace blower.
> 
> View attachment 222945



Thanks for the information.  You've addressed one of the issues I'm looking at which is what do I want the Tundra fan to do when the gas furnace is running?  Like you, it would only be at the end of a burn where there is very little heat in the Tundra.  I could allow both to run since it's always at full power or just shut off the Tundra blower while the gas furnace is running.

Either way would work, but since 1) while the gas blower is running, there is plenty of airflow over the heat exchanger 2) the puny blower in the Tundra would likely be overpowered by the gas blower and 3) having air blow counter to the Tundra blower should increase current draw, I see no reason to allow both to run simultaneously.  

This thing is going to have a pile of relays.


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> I've seen pictures of @DoubleB 's stuff



Yikes, there are certainly some things I'd do different next time on my wiring and control system.    But I don't have a setup like you guys with competing furnaces, so my only advice on control design is that there are usually only a couple things that I need the design to do right, and several things I don't want the design to do wrong.  So I take some time to dream up and list out all the problems, failures, or dangerous situations that I want to avoid, then design to be fail-safe during them, and half the time that solution also accomplishes the things to do right, too.  

And the other half the time I still didn't accomplish my objectives of improved performance, but at least it was safe when I tested the failure modes that I could imagine.  I still have a lot to learn...


----------



## KC Matt

Quick update:  The dampers are here and I've made a schematic first on paper and then with Edraw Max.  I need to review it before wiring anything along with ordering bus bars and relays, but it's close.  Edraw is a pretty useable program though it still doesn't show a SPDT relay, only a SPDT switch.  I added a relay solenoid and it pretty well gets the point across.  Naturally, the software is $250 to purchase so this upload will have a watermark.  As anticipated, it's a mess but it should do what I want it to.

I'd greatly appreciate if somebody who is familiar with these circuits could double check my work.


----------



## JRHAWK9

JRHAWK9 said:


> This is the wiring for my three relay wood furnace blower motor control.  It's VERY messy, sorry.  The wood furnace blower is under control of the speed control (which is powering the high speed winding on the blower) at all times -except- when the LP furnace is also running at the same time.  When the LP kicks in AND the wood blower is still active, then the wood furnace's blower's low speed winding is given 120V instead of the speed control.  This was done because whenever the LP kicks in the wood furnace's blower is running very slow at the end of a burn.  The LP's blower then backfeeds the wood furnaces blower.  Not good!  Adding that relay rectifies that situation, as then both blowers are running on low speed.  I also have wired up a fail-safe in case the speed control stops working.  In this case I have a second 200° snap switch installed in my plenum.  If plenum temps ever get that high and that snap switch ever closes, it will take power away from the speed control and send it to the low speed winding of the wood furnace blower.
> 
> View attachment 222945



Here's my 3 RIB's wired up as shown above.

Here's what this setup does.

Wood furnace blower motor is speed controlled via the high speed tap only when ALL of the following are true.
     - Primary low limit temp in wood furnace plenum is met
     - LP or AC blower is off
     - Emergency secondary snap switch temp in wood furnace plenum NOT met

Wood furnace's low speed winding is supplied 120V when one or the other, or both of the following are true AND the primary low limit temp in wood furnace plenum is met:
     - LP blower is on
     - Secondary emergency snap temp in wood furnace plenum is met.

I have the secondary emergency snap disk temp set at 180° (the maximum this particular snap switch goes up to).


----------



## TL002

I am in the market for an add-on wood burning stove as a secondary heat source. My goal is to use as a stand alone system using existing duct system.

I currently have a heat pump with LP furnace as an auxiliary. Our house is 2400 sq., mainly on the first floor. Second floor is smaller. I am wondering what will be an ideal wood burning furnace for my house. I read a lot about Tundra, posted a couple years back. Is it still a good buy? I have no HVAC experience. Appreciate any input.


----------



## KC Matt

Those are the same relays I use except yours appear to be the 20a while the ones I use are 10a.  They are super convenient because they have 3 coils and can be used with 120vac 24vac or 24vdc.  The reason my above diagram shows SPDT even where I could use SPST is that with just 1 spare relay, I have my whole system covered in an emergency.  

If you get a chance, JRHAWK9, take a look at my schematic and see if you find flaws that prevent it from doing my stated goal.  It's almost spring and this system probably won't be installed for a couple weeks so it may not run until next year.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Yeah, I emailed Functional Devices and they recommended using the larger one to power a blower motor.  I'm using the smaller 10A one to control my powered damper.  It's a RIBU1C.  I should have used that smaller one to control the speed controller too, as I think I'm going to order a U1C and swap it out.  I don't need that big thing just to power a speed controller!  I can use the spare larger one for a backup.

I'm not totally following what you want to do and, like you mentioned, everybody's setup is soooo different.  This makes it hard to fully grasp what you want done and how to do it.  I know a couple years ago I asked a master electrician to look over something and he never got back to me.  I'm guessing he didn't want to "OK" it not knowing anything about it.  Plus I need my diagrams looking like a pre-schooler did it in order to follow them.      I follow them easier when I see all connections, etc.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

JRHAWK9 said:


> Here's my 3 RIB's wired up as shown above.
> 
> Here's what this setup does.
> 
> Wood furnace blower motor is speed controlled via the high speed tap only when ALL of the following are true.
> - Primary low limit snap temp in wood furnace plenum is met
> - LP or AC blower is off
> - Emergency secondary snap switch temp in wood furnace plenun NOT met
> 
> Wood furnace's low speed winding is supplied 120V when one or the other, or both of the following are true AND the primary low limit snap temp in wood furnace plenum is met:
> - LP blower is on
> - Secondary emergency snap temp in wood furnace plenum is met.
> 
> I have the secondary emergency snap disk temp set at 180° (the maximum this particular snap switch goes up to).
> 
> View attachment 223285



Thats a good looking setup. Especially the speed controller. If the manufacturers steal the design we should get the royalties. LOL..


----------



## JRHAWK9

STIHLY DAN said:


> Thats a good looking setup. Especially the speed controller. If the manufacturers steal the design we should get the royalties. LOL..



I couldn't ask for a better functioning controls setup.  I really like how it turned out.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

JRHAWK9 said:


> I couldn't ask for a better functioning controls setup.  I really like how it turned out.



Love it when a plan comes together.


----------



## Roediger

Has anyone had to fill out the SBI-Furnace report for one that has cracked not sure what all I have to fill out on this form if you could message me and let me know or maybe let me see the one u filled out it would be greatly appreciated thanks


----------



## Digger79

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah, the fan/limit switch.
> Not sure I'm following the plan with the blowers and dampers...
> 
> You might be surprised...my lil Drolet 1400i (1.8 CF insert stove) will out heat the Tundra 2:1..._but,_ that it only the main floor, and a load only lasts about half as long as in Tundra


try sticking that Tundra in your living room. lol I bet it out heats the insert. I used to have tundra in an non insulated shed 12x20 and it would get the high 80's lol. hot. windows open when its 5 deg outside. But I get it. U mean vs the duct delivery of the heat.


----------



## FrankT

Hello Everyone!  I just purchased the Tundra 2 and excited to install it.  I am going to hook into my existing LP ductwork and I was wondering what sort of backdraft dampers did you use and where you got them?  I was thinking of either installing it vertical in the plenum above my ACoil or horizontal between the plenum and supply.  

Also I was thinking of connecting the house return on the left to the return on the drolet.  Should I have two dampers damper there as well?  I don't intend to run both furnaces at the same time so the return would only open to the drolet when gas is off.  So would one damper allow return air to flow into drolet and another block off air pulling from gas?


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

Hi folks... last night I sat down and read ALL 105 pages of comments on this topic.  Damm, I learned a lot about Tundras. 

But here's the deal, I need some advice from those running older tundras with cracks.

I bought a house with a first mode tundra (serial number in the 500's), home inspection failed to turn up any issues with it prior.  I was googling, learned about some of the issues with cracking, inspected it closely, and presto... major cracking throughout the front.  6 cracks, 3-4 inch long.  Still burns well, but obviously performance is down because of the additional air intake.

I've contacted SBI to see about warranty - fingers crossed, but because I am the second owner without proof of purchase, I won't hold my breath.  In the meantime, old furnace guy paid a visit, said it's probably not that big a hazard or anything to run in the meantime, especially if I get it welded up (both him and I aware that the welding is likely to be a temp fix). 

So here's my question to those still running tundras with cracks: 

Should I?  a) weld that p.o.s. up, get another winter out of it...  or b)  replace immediately because of safety/performance, spending thousands on an alternative..  probably non ducted wood stove ( I know, I know - not the same circulation)..

BTW.  it's installed in an unfinished (concrete walls) below grade basement of about 1000 square feet, and the ducts heat floor above, which is another 1000 square feet..

Whadya say?


----------



## brenndatomu

It's not really a safety hazard...the cracks close up when it gets hot...never have welded mine yet...it works fine. But with 6 cracks that long, welding might be prudent to keep things from getting completely out of control though...


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

brenndatomu said:


> It's not really a safety hazard...the cracks close up when it gets hot...never hav





brenndatomu said:


> It's not really a safety hazard...the cracks close up when it gets hot...never have welded mine yet...it works fine. But with 6 cracks that long, welding might be prudent to keep things from getting completely out of control though...


Thanks - Appreciate it.  Anybody else still burning theirs with cracks?


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodythewoodhunter said:


> Thanks - Appreciate it.  Anybody else still burning theirs with cracks?


@DoubleB


----------



## DoubleB

Yessir, I'm still using mine with cracks.  I have probably the same number of cracks as you @Woodythewoodhunter , between the 8 corners of the loading door and heat exchanger cleanout door, although all but one of mine are <1" long.  I also bet that if you look underneath the HX cleanout door, you'll see a bunch of tack weld that are cracked (right above the loading door).  

Although I don't like the cracks and I figure the days (years) with my Tundra are numbered, I also feel safe using mine in its current condition.  When the furnace heats up the cracks shrink closed, so I don't think air admittance is affected much.  They're far from a through-crack, and they're plainly visible to keep an eye on them so I can tell over time if they're running away.

I'm kind of curious what new furnaces might come out in the next couple years, and for now I'll see if I can make it that long.

Also, I'm super impressed you read all 105 pages.  Do you have insomnia?    Needless to say, you're now aware of some potential mitigations such as firebrick for the front face (available from SBI), over-temp control, etc?  I don't know how much that helps, but some ideas for you...


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

DoubleB said:


> Yessir, I'm still using mine with cracks.  I have probably the same number of cracks as you @Woodythewoodhunter , between the 8 corners of the loading door and heat exchanger cleanout door, although all but one of mine are <1" long.  I also bet that if you look underneath the HX cleanout door, you'll see a bunch of tack weld that are cracked (right above the loading door).
> 
> Although I don't like the cracks and I figure the days (years) with my Tundra are numbered, I also feel safe using mine in its current condition.  When the furnace heats up the cracks shrink closed, so I don't think air admittance is affected much.  They're far from a through-crack, and they're plainly visible to keep an eye on them so I can tell over time if they're running away.
> 
> I'm kind of curious what new furnaces might come out in the next couple years, and for now I'll see if I can make it that long.
> 
> Also, I'm super impressed you read all 105 pages.  Do you have insomnia?    Needless to say, you're now aware of some potential mitigations such as firebrick for the front face (available from SBI), over-temp control, etc?  I don't know how much that helps, but some ideas for you...



Thanks @DoubleB !  No luck with warranty for you?  I am aware of these mitigations now..   so if no warranty happens, i'll be pursuing them.  Along with welding it up...    And yes..  funny enough, I do have Insomnia...  .


----------



## DoubleB

Actually I did get the warranty, I even confirmed that they were ok if I ran it until I chose a replacement, they said sure.

Gosh sorry about the insomnia joke.  I can tell you're not offended, which I'm glad you know that wasn't my intent.  I hope you sleep better tonight.


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

DoubleB said:


> Actually I did get the warranty, I even confirmed that they were ok if I ran it until I chose a replacement, they said sure.
> 
> Gosh sorry about the insomnia joke.  I can tell you're not offended, which I'm glad you know that wasn't my intent.  I hope you sleep better tonight.



No worries @DoubleB !  Thanks for the info.  submitting the warranty request asap so hopefully i'll have good news to report.  If not, i'm going to weld that beast up and try that.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah you got it bad if you read the whole 105 pages without sleeping...I can't even do that and I'm OP! 
But my wife says I have a switch on my ear...when it hits the pillow, I'm out. Drives her nuts because the snoring starts about a minute later!


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

Update from my warranty for my Tundra 1 - I submitted all my paperwork, photos, and they were reasonably quick with the response.  They at first offered me a replacement firebox under warranty (all other parts would have been swapped over), but I politely told them that if I was going to go to all the work/cost of swapping it out, I wanted a complete new upgraded furnace.

They honoured that.  They sent me a Tundra 2.  Their requirements were do the install myself (or pay for it), and that I remove the old serial plate and return to them. 

I first submitted my claim on Oct 3rd, and by Nov 5th I had the furnace sitting on my front lawn.  

I'm pleased with SBI's honouring of their warranty, and based on this alone - I would buy another product from them.  

Thanks to @brenndatomu and @DoubleB for the advice.


----------



## Case1030

Hello all, just finished skimming through this tread. 

Anyway I'm in the market for a wood furnace and figured the drolet tundra 2 will be a good fit. 

I have a single level 1400 Sft house in Manitoba on a 1000 sqfoot sealed crawlspace. The house has quite a bit a Windows dual panel with storm windows on the outside, and being that it was built early 1960-1970 only has 4 inch studs but built quite well with proper vapor barrior. The attic has regular r20 bat insulation with a good foot to 1.5 feet of blown in on top.  Last winter was pretty brutal many days in a row of (-20 to -25 Celsius daytime/ -28 to -35 celcius night) or in Fahrenheit -4 to -31 not including wind chill. 

In the past I have used a huge Harmon bottom fed pellet stove for many years in the sunroom which managed to heat rest of the house, but I wanted to become more self sufficient and got a good early start on firewood 2 years css Ash, Oak, maple, and jackpine total of 10 cords. 

Last year was my first attempt to go full wood using a Century 2900 2.4cft insert very similar to the Drolet 1800i both built by SBI. Shoulder season worked very well but once moved into mid December it was to hard to keep up so I shut the 400 sqfoot sunroom down untill March. The insert just kept up enough during the cold snap not to kick on the baseboards. I burnt about 4-5 cords mostly hardwood last year.

Now I would like to put a Tundra in the sunroom where I had the old pellet stove. Just got the new chimney installed through the roof. 9 feet of insulated and 6 feet of black pipe inside house (about 15 total). 

The plan is to duct all hot air into main living area and also pulling fresh air from the opposite end giving me the option to close the sunroom door.

I'll upload a picture of the house layout.


----------



## Case1030

There are tempurature differences in each room clearly hard to get the heat to the furthest rooms. 

In the fireplace insert room gets to about 80 Fahrenheit most of the time. And living area sits about 70-75. Bedrooms stay at 65 but is nice for sleeping. The end goal is to try distributing the heat throughout the house better with the furnace while also heating the sunroom with radiant heat. 

Only when wanting to use the sunroom will we open a register for extra heat.


----------



## brenndatomu

Hi @Case1030 ! Sounds like you have a well thought out plan. The extra foot of firebox that the TII has over your insert stove should provide the firepower you need. Are you running ducts in the attic, or crawlspace?
BTW, dad used to own (still has?) a Case 930...what a chunk of iron!


----------



## Case1030

Not exactly related but I do have a stove top tempurature controller on the unit. It kicks the insert fan on high at 600 and a exterior fan blowing in the fireplace opening. At 590 fan goes on low also kicking off the exterior fan as well keeping firebox hot enough for secondary combustion. So I like to believe im getting most of the btu out of this unit possible.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> Hi @Case1030 ! Sounds like you have a well thought out plan. The extra foot of firebox that the TII has over your insert stove should provide the firepower you need. Are you running ducts in the attic, or crawlspace?
> BTW, dad used to own (still has?) a Case 930...what a chunk of iron!



Thanks for the reply @brenndatomu.

Id like to duct through the crawlspace if possible and rig a heat dump in case of power outage. 

Also have another plan that might test the waters... plumbing all the heat into the utility room and fresh air in bedroom #2. To create a circulating flow effect around the house.

And yes the old case 930/1030 are built like a tank... we have had one on the farm for 50 years just got a rebuild couple years ago for the sake of sentimental value.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Id like to duct through the crawlspace if possible and rig a heat dump in case of power outage.


The emergency heat dump is exactly what I was going to suggest, but you are already on top of it!
Nice work with the Mypin on your insert too! I think you could lower the operating temps some, gain some efficiency...a fan stripping heat off the outside of the unit affects the temp inside the firebox very little, if at all.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> The emergency heat dump is exactly what I was going to suggest, but you are already on top of it!
> Nice work with the Mypin on your insert too! I think you could lower the operating temps some, gain some efficiency...a fan stripping heat off the outside of the unit affects the temp inside the firebox very little, if at all.



I could try lowering the tempurature some. Not sure why but last year when I lowered it below 550 and the sheer volume of air was cooling the firebox to the point of secondaries wanting to stop lighting. It could be the wood quality being 20-22%, and the extra heat needed to keep lit? Very hard to get wood down to 15% unless using a wood shed around here even 3 year wood wants to absorb the moisture back in.

I talked to SBI about putting a larger fan on the insert and apperently the fans they choose for the insert are about 130 cfm and matched for the purpose of keeping the secondary combustion going. A large fan they told me would rob to much heat from the fire box. So instead I put a controller to rob heat only when the stove can afford to give it.

And that's apperantly the main reason they pull heat off the exhaust on the tundra not affecting firebox temps.

I dont have to many complaints with the stove just have to run it a little hotter. It was a learning cuve forsure compared to the old smoke dragons. With lower mc% wood I think you have a good point, logs should light  secondarys at 450 stove top.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> With lower mc% wood I think you have a good point, logs should light secondarys at 450 stove top.


I can get secondary burn going at 350-400*F in my Drolet 1400i stove (with 3 year CSS wood) 
The temp I ended up settling on for the Mypin temp controller on the Tundra was 350*F to close damper, 300* to open back up (if there was still a call for heat) but that is measured inside the stove pipe a foot or two out of the furnace....not sure how that would translate to STT's.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> I can get secondary burn going at 350-400*F in my Drolet 1400i stove (with 3 year CSS wood)
> The temp I ended up settling on for the Mypin temp controller on the Tundra was 350*F to close damper, 300* to open back up (if there was still a call for heat) but that is measured inside the stove pipe a foot or two out of the furnace....not sure how that would translate to STT's.



That is exactly the plan when the dealer here gets my Tundra 2 in. Measuring the flue temp seems to be the most accurate way to operate the damper control. 

I haven't been able to find to much regarding the tundra 2 though... I guess in a way that's a good thing. I was a little curious about how the old tundta compares to the new design with the plenum?


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> I haven't been able to find to much regarding the tundra 2 though... I guess in a way that's a good thing.


My thinking too...people tend to squawk about stuff that doesn't work...especially $2000 house heaters! 


Case1030 said:


> I was a little curious about how the old tundta compares to the new design with the plenum?


My understanding is that it is the basically same, only with manufacturing changes made in the front to eliminate the cracking issues (the HE cleanout box is allowed to float now instead of welded fast to the front firebox panel, for one) and the blower controls are more sophisticated...variable speed. And then the obvious, the plenum...all steps in the right direction IMO.
I think I remember someone saying the firebox baffle has been upgraded to C-cast too.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Not exactly related but I do have a stove top tempurature controller on the unit. It kicks the insert fan on high at 600 and a exterior fan blowing in the fireplace opening. At 590 fan goes on low also kicking off the exterior fan as well keeping firebox hot enough for secondary combustion. So I like to believe im getting most of the btu out of this unit possible.
> View attachment 232919
> View attachment 232918


Just curious, how did you attach the thermocouple to the stove?


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> Just curious, how did you attach the thermocouple to the stove?



I used two pieces of metal and took a side grinder to cut a slit in the metal deep enough to fit the thermocouple wire between. After that, I welded the two sandwich metal together. I then slid the sensor on top of the stove inside the convection jacket. 

Being that I striped the probe off the thermocouple (bare wire) it allowed the tempurature to more accurately follow real time tempurature without lag/delay.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> My thinking too...people tend to squawk about stuff that doesn't work...especially $2000 house heaters!
> 
> My understanding is that it is the basically same, only with manufacturing changes made in the front to eliminate the cracking issues (the HE cleanout box is allowed to float now instead of welded fast to the front firebox panel, for one) and the blower controls are more sophisticated...variable speed. And then the obvious, the plenum...all steps in the right direction IMO.
> I think I remember someone saying the firebox baffle has been upgraded to C-cast too.



Awsome sounds like all I will have to do is add a hot tub timer, and tempurature control for the flue. 

The idea is to load and go, along with the capability to burn down coals in cold weather without having to manual switch the damper.


----------



## wannabewarm

Hey all. We are researching fireplaces AGAIN after purchasing a Fire Chief 1000 in 2017 and are now going to tear it out. We liked the Drolet Tundra II but would like to hear from owners of them. We dont want to make a second mistake!! Who has an EPA wood furnace they are very happy with and did not need to modify it? We are over that stress.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

wannabewarm said:


> Hey all. We are researching fireplaces AGAIN after purchasing a Fire Chief 1000 in 2017 and are now going to tear it out. We liked the Drolet Tundra II but would like to hear from owners of them. We dont want to make a second mistake!! Who has an EPA wood furnace they are very happy with and did not need to modify it? We are over that stress.



Did HY-C send you the updated draft blower?

I now have the 1500 and while I am still trying to dial it in for max burn times. If I were to do it all over again I would of purchased the Max Caddy.


----------



## brenndatomu

wannabewarm said:


> Hey all. We are researching fireplaces AGAIN after purchasing a Fire Chief 1000 in 2017 and are now going to tear it out. We liked the Drolet Tundra II but would like to hear from owners of them. We dont want to make a second mistake!! Who has an EPA wood furnace they are very happy with and did not need to modify it? We are over that stress.


Welcome wannbewarm. 
My experience is that people that are unhappy with a product usually squawk about it. And I have not heard of anything negative on the TII...the few people that have given feedback on them, it has been basically positive.
I pretty much guarantee you will like it better than that FC1000 POS.


Mrpelletburner said:


> Did HY-C send you the updated draft blower?
> 
> I now have the 1500 and while I am still trying to dial it in for max burn times. If I were to do it all over again I would of purchased the Max Caddy.


Max Caddy would have been overkill in your house IMO...those are good for twice your square footage.


----------



## wannabewarm

We have received the updated blower, and before we installed it my husband made even more improvement to the flue. We are still having the same issues. We have looked at the Kuuma and the Caddys. They are more than we want to spend but would be nice to have a furnace that performs.


----------



## brenndatomu

I'm the last person to go running to a lawyer...but had I had the bad fortune of buying one of those FC1000's, I think I'd go find a good one. And then I'd round up all the other people that I could find that bought one of those steaming piles...they really do need to be recalled before someone gets hurt!


----------



## wannabewarm

We have been told they will take it back. If they wouldn't,  I think the EPA is the first ones i would contact so they can see how much smoke it produces between calls for heat or if the fire isn't hot enough when you shut the door. Poor poor design.


----------



## JRHAWK9

wannabewarm said:


> have looked at the Kuuma and the Caddys. They are more than we want to spend but would be nice to have a furnace that performs.




Only two I would even consider.  What's that saying about only crying once.  You get what you pay for.  Want cheap, you get cheap.


----------



## Mojappa

Random question here, does plenum height matter? I know there are min/max measurements and CTC measurements but is there a target size as in would you want it to be? ...as big as you could get it, shorter to get more heat to vent, does house size factor into ideal plenum size…? Things like that. I’m asl8mg because I’m about to get some block to raise my Heatpack up a bit, just wondering if there is anything concerning plenum height I should know or if it’s just basically ‘raise it to where you want the firebox to be’.  Obviously we’re only talking +/- a few inches here, not building the furnace a stage before my drums get one. Lol


----------



## brenndatomu

I think the taller the better...but with that said, I doubt that a tall one would make a real noticeable difference over a short one...how's that for a non-committal answer?!


----------



## TDD11

Well I installed a 5.5" 26 foot chimney liner Sunday - finished it up tonight when I received the correct cap. So far my manometer reads .05 at 260°F. But if I open my stove door it smokes worse than before the chimney liner. This was not the outcome I had envisioned. 

My chimney with 2 offsets was difficult, I actually had to install the vertical tee from the bottom, through the thimble - it would not feed through the chimney with or without the liner attached. 

On my second attempt at feeding the liner down the chimney, we very slightly ovalized the bottom 10 feet to help it feed past the 2 bends in the chimney. 

Anyways, I only lit 3 small splits and thought the house smelled a bit smokey, and my fiance agreed. The draft drops to .03 if open the door.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

What is the outside temp?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Well I installed a 5.5" 26 foot chimney liner Sunday - finished it up tonight when I received the correct cap. So far my manometer reads .05 at 260°F. But if I open my stove door it smokes worse than before the chimney liner. This was not the outcome I had envisioned.
> 
> My chimney with 2 offsets was difficult, I actually had to install the vertical tee from the bottom, through the thimble - it would not feed through the chimney with or without the liner attached.
> 
> On my second attempt at feeding the liner down the chimney, we very slightly ovalized the bottom 10 feet to help it feed past the 2 bends in the chimney.
> 
> Anyways, I only lit 3 small splits and thought the house smelled a bit smokey, and my fiance agreed. The draft drops to .03 if open the door.


That's 260* internal or external?
Honestly that draft doesn't sound too bad if that's 260 internal...especially the "open door #".
Possible you have a cracked weld on the heat exchanger like I did? Or maybe the smoke is being sucked back in through another flue...or some other opening into the house? Not running a bath or kitchen vent fan or anything like that, are you?


----------



## TDD11

Mrpelletburner said:


> What is the outside temp?


27-28°F here in Central Ohio tonight. 



brenndatomu said:


> That's 260* internal or external?
> Honestly that draft doesn't sound too bad if that's 260 internal...especially the "open door #".
> Possible you have a cracked weld on the heat exchanger like I did? Or maybe the smoke is being sucked back in through another flue...or some other opening into the house? Not running a bath or kitchen vent fan or anything like that, are you?


260°F is an internal flue temp, on the downhill side of the burn cycle.
I don't see how the smoke would be sucked back in to the house,unless I have a leaky liner, into the masonry chimney..

I was on the roof Sunday when 2 friends attached the tree body to the liner, at the bottom of the chimney. I am following up with them to ensure they are confident that they got a good clamp into the liner. I may pull the clean out cap and get a visual to ensure the liner is inserted far enough into the tee. I'll also double check that the tee about is fully clamped into the tee body. 

When I open the door and am standing in front of the stove, you can smell the smoke - maybe even worse than before - so again, I don't think it's a HX weld issue, or being sucked in again from outside. Even with the stove running, door closed, I knew in front of the box and could smell smoke, almost as if the combustion air was backdrafting slightly or something.
More to follow


----------



## laynes69

If I have my blower running on the furnace it will smoke when I open the door. Loading during the coalinga stage and when the distribution blower isn't running will be the best bet. I have a 5.5" liner on a 32' chimney.


----------



## brenndatomu

Good point ^ ^ ^!

Try opening a door or window nearby next time, see if the issue clears up at all...if it does, then you need a source of makeup air for the furnace/chimney.



TDD11 said:


> I don't see how the smoke would be sucked back in to the house,unless I have a leaky liner, into the masonry chimney..


If you have 2 flues side x side, the second flue can actually suck smoke back in from the one being used...that's why they want them at different height when they are side x side.


----------



## TDD11

laynes69 said:


> If I have my blower running on the furnace it will smoke when I open the door. Loading during the coalinga stage and when the distribution blower isn't running will be the best bet. I have a 5.5" liner on a 32' chimney.


That's a bit frustrating isn't it? I guess after some of the hype, I expected to have zero smoke spillage once the liner had a little heat. Is your 5.5" liner insulated? Mine is an interior chimney with a flue cap, and is uninsulated.



brenndatomu said:


> Good point ^ ^ ^!
> 
> Try opening a door or window nearby next time, see if the issue clears up at all...if it does, then you need a source of makeup air for the furnace/chimney.
> 
> 
> If you have 2 flues side x side, the second flue can actually suck smoke back in from the one being used...that's why they want them at different height when they are side x side.


I will try again this evening, I opened a window last night on the east side of the house, but the wind was SSW. I should have tried a west facing basement window - but the purpose of this liner install was to get better draft so that I did not need to crack a window to prevent smoke spillage.

I have a 2nd flue, that goes to my ground floor fireplace. I suppose it is possible but I find it unlikely - I would think that i'd have encountered it before. 

I'm going to pull my stove connector pipe back off, and the chimney cleanout cap, and inspect the Tee-to-liner connection and the Tee body- to - tee snout connection.


----------



## laynes69

TDD11 said:


> That's a bit frustrating isn't it? I guess after some of the hype, I expected to have zero smoke spillage once the liner had a little heat. Is your 5.5" liner insulated? Mine is an interior chimney with a flue cap, and is uninsulated.



Not really. Our liner just has poured vermiculite around it for insulation. Because of the size of the door and the size of the flue, it will happen. Not only on a furnace but happens with stoves too. When the distribution blower is running, it changes the pressures in the home. The main benefit of the liner is draft. You still maintain a strong draft when the fire has died down and maintain a strong draft during the burn. EPA units do not put out the flue temps of the older furnaces. Without a liner, its difficult to maintain a steady strong draft, not to mention condensation issues as well. I'll take a little spillage here and there over the old unit.


----------



## brenndatomu

The draft numbers sound good to me


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> If I have my blower running on the furnace it will smoke when I open the door. Loading during the coalinga stage and when the distribution blower isn't running will be the best bet. I have a 5.5" liner on a 32' chimney.




Just install a manual switch to shut blower circuit off when re-loading.  Due to the speed controller and slow blower speed, my blower runs at all times up till there are no coals left in the firebox.  I just turn the switch off when I re-load.


----------



## laynes69

JRHAWK9 said:


> Just install a manual switch to shut blower circuit off when re-loading.  Due to the speed controller and slow blower speed, my blower runs at all times up till there are no coals left in the firebox.  I just turn the switch off when I re-load.


I have a shutoff switch above the furnace I installed. It won't smoke if I work in a timely manner. If I'm messing around and it starts to take off it will smoke.


----------



## Case1030

wannabewarm said:


> Hey all. We are researching fireplaces AGAIN after purchasing a Fire Chief 1000 in 2017 and are now going to tear it out. We liked the Drolet Tundra II but would like to hear from owners of them. We dont want to make a second mistake!! Who has an EPA wood furnace they are very happy with and did not need to modify it? We are over that stress.



You won't go wrong with the the Tundra 2 I dont have duct work attached yet and had our coldest night of the winter so far -15f (-26 celcus) kept 1400 squarefoot 1970 build only 4 inch stud house at an easy 75f on 3/4 quarter load of not the best wood. After 8 hour reload house was still 70. 

I'm only installing a tempurature controller because I dont want to rely on the room thermostat to operate the furnace. I like a little more control over parameters and limits along with the ability to burn down coal if needed. So far it seems like I won't have coaling issues like most have been fighting with. 

With everything said, I am very impressed with the furnace thus far and does not require any modifications. I will post an update in a couple months.


----------



## TDD11

How in the world do you remove the baffle above the secondary tubes? Or the tubes themselves?

Going through the Tundra manual today I see that you're supposed to slide the baffle to the front when cleaning the HX tubes - I didn't know that. I've always just scraped as much towards the front as possible, and then ran my wire brush. I feel at least a half inch of stuff on top of the baffle so I'd like to remove and clean it.


----------



## brenndatomu

Page 63, 64 of manual


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Page 63, 64 of manual


Thanks... guess I missed that section while re-reading today. Haha


----------



## brenndatomu




----------



## TDD11

That was easy! There was quite a bit of fly ash on it, and build up in those back corners on the baffle since I've never followed the HX directions till now.

I verified that the joints on the tee were both good. Thoroughly cleaned the HX tubes, which were nasty. Also cleaned ito the elbow on the back of the stove which has some build up. 

By my manometer, I have great draft. I just lit a fire, 230°F flue temp on a cold chimney and I have .05" of draft. This is only 10 minutes into lighting a fire. I still am getting a small whiff of smoke at times. 

I haven't opened the door to check for smoke spillage. No ventilation is on, and my basement windows are closed right now.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> That was easy! There was quite a bit of fly ash on it, and build up in those back corners on the baffle since I've never followed the HX directions till now.


IMO Tundra/HeatPro, Caddy/Max Caddy has a very good design for cleaning/servicing the stove...and easy to establish a draft on a cold chimney with that HX cleanout door too...pop the door open and blow the propane torch or hair dryer in there for a minute...even the most stubborn chimney will start drafting!


----------



## TDD11

I am getting .1" of draft right now. But even with the fan off, west basement window wide open, and no other ventilation on in the house, if you open the door I get bad smoke spillage. Either the 5.5 with a little ovalization at the bottom, or the horizontal run in my connector pipe, must be the culprit. 

I am contemplating lifting the stove another 8" off of the floor, shortening the SS Tee Snout, and running a short section of pipe diagonally. I know Drolet and other stove makers say that a 90° elbow hurts draft.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I am contemplating lifting the stove another 8" off of the floor, shortening the SS Tee Snout, and running a short section of pipe diagonally.


Good plan


----------



## sloeffle

TDD11 said:


> How in the world do you remove the baffle above the secondary tubes? Or the tubes themselves?
> 
> Going through the Tundra manual today I see that you're supposed to slide the baffle to the front when cleaning the HX tubes - I didn't know that. I've always just scraped as much towards the front as possible, and then ran my wire brush. I feel at least a half inch of stuff on top of the baffle so I'd like to remove and clean it.


I've had my Caddy ( same design ) for 8 years and I've cleaned my HX tubes once. It was the biggest waste of time. Just vacuum them out a couple times a year and you will be good.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I've had my Caddy ( same design ) for 8 years and I've cleaned my HX tubes once. It was the biggest waste of time. Just vacuum them out a couple times a year and you will be good.


I had to clean mine every few weeks...not a ton of buildup...but enough to make it worth doing.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I had to clean mine every few weeks...not a ton of buildup...but enough to make it worth doing.


I think we are talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about the tubes with the holes in the firebox. Those technically aren't HX tubes though.  

Are you talking about the big HX tubes that the indoor air picks the heat off of ?


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I think we are talking apples and oranges. I'm talking about the tubes with the holes in the firebox. Those technically aren't HX tubes though.
> 
> Are you talking about the big HX tubes that the indoor air picks the heat off of ?


Ah...yes.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> Ah...yes.


Same here, I try to clean them every few weeks or when the furnace isn't running during the heating season.


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> I have a shutoff switch above the furnace I installed. It won't smoke if I work in a timely manner. If I'm messing around and it starts to take off it will smoke.



I removed the smoke baffle on mine, so I get some spillage somewhat frequently when loading on decent coals.  The smoke spillage is less annoying to me than the baffle being in the way.    Although with the Kuuma's you rake all the coals forward before loading, so all those hot coals are right near the door opening.


----------



## TDD11

I wondered about installing a small smoke baffle, even a temporary install as a test, in my Tundra. I'm sure it would get annoying - I know my friends whose stoves have those baffles, hate them. But I wish the stove door could be open without a concern about smoke spillage, like my old Silver Dollar Saver in the garage - you can open the door and smoke in front of it if you want, it sucks!

By watching my manometer, I have too much draft now, but still the same smoke spillage issues. I wonder if a 7" SS liner would have the same issue - I kind of doubt it. Being a tall interior chimney, I'm sure it would still draft great.

I really need to get that variable speed blower mod done soon.


----------



## laynes69

JRHAWK9 said:


> I removed the smoke baffle on mine, so I get some spillage somewhat frequently when loading on decent coals.  The smoke spillage is less annoying to me than the baffle being in the way.    Although with the Kuuma's you rake all the coals forward before loading, so all those hot coals are right near the door opening.


Same with the Caddy, I rake forward and load.


----------



## Wood1Dennis

wannabewarm said:


> Hey all. We are researching fireplaces AGAIN after purchasing a Fire Chief 1000 in 2017 and are now going to tear it out. We liked the Drolet Tundra II but would like to hear from owners of them. We dont want to make a second mistake!! Who has an EPA wood furnace they are very happy with and did not need to modify it? We are over that stress.



Wannabe, I know this doesn't go directly to your question about the Tundra, but my Caddy is a really nice furnace that I am happy with. I made a small simple mod to the damper so I could gain more control over the primary combustion air but that's it. Just like the Tundras, the heat exchanger clean out is a breeze with the hinged panel in the front. 
Good Luck!


----------



## brenndatomu

Sorry guys...kinda jumped ship on ya...https://hearth.com/talk/threads/uh-oh-whats-this.172989/


----------



## Highbeam

Reading installation clearances for the tundra2 they call out 16-18 inches from the back of the filter box to the combustible wall. That filter box is about 16-18” deep too. So the actual furnace needs 3 feet of rear clearance? Is this how you all have them installed? Out in the middle of the room?


----------



## KC Matt

Highbeam said:


> Reading installation clearances for the tundra2 they call out 16-18 inches from the back of the filter box to the combustible wall. That filter box is about 16-18” deep too. So the actual furnace needs 3 feet of rear clearance? Is this how you all have them installed? Out in the middle of the room?



The only area of concern on the back of the Tundra is the chimney.  In fact, the entire furnace puts out no heat to mention aside from the chimney and the front of the unit.


----------



## Mojappa

Highbeam said:


> Reading installation clearances for the tundra2 they call out 16-18 inches from the back of the filter box to the combustible wall. That filter box is about 16-18” deep too. So the actual furnace needs 3 feet of rear clearance? Is this how you all have them installed? Out in the middle of the room?



I noticed that as well. Luckily my basement walls aren’t finished yet in that room so I guess it can be closer.


----------



## brenndatomu

It's all about clearance from the wall to the stove pipe...


----------



## KC Matt

They are probably assuming worst case scenario where your chimney is improperly installed, you don't clean your chimney, you burn unseasoned wood, have a chimney fire with molten creosote dripping from the seams in the chimney....

I have double wall black pipe and a highly effective controller system on my T1 and there is no concern about heat.  My chimney is maybe 12" from the front fender of my brand new car.  No concerns.  Not sure how effective the T2 controller is but from what I read it should suffice.


----------



## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> They are probably assuming worst case scenario where your chimney is improperly installed, you don't clean your chimney, you burn unseasoned wood, have a chimney fire with molten creosote dripping from the seams in the chimney....
> 
> I have double wall black pipe and a highly effective controller system on my T1 and there is no concern about heat.  My chimney is maybe 12" from the front fender of my brand new car.  No concerns.  Not sure how effective the T2 controller is but from what I read it should suffice.




what type of controller system do you have?  Controls the fire or the blower?


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> Not sure how effective the T2 controller is


Seems they still benefit from the aftermarket temp controller mod...right @Case1030 ...


----------



## trx250r87

I recall asking SBI about the rear clearance and they said it was only to access the air filter and fan, and to only pay attention to the stove pipe to wall specs .

Eric


----------



## KC Matt

JRHAWK9 said:


> what type of controller system do you have?  Controls the fire or the blower?



We chatted about my plans last spring but I have 3 Johnson control digital controllers controlling the damper, blower on, and blower speed, 3 powered dampers, 8 relays, a 24vac transformer.  

It allows the gas furnace and wood furnace to operate in a common set of duct work with both systems being authorized to operate at the same time, though they don't operate at the same time...most of the time.  It absolutely works.


----------



## Highbeam

trx250r87 said:


> I recall asking SBI about the rear clearance and they said it was only to access the air filter and fan, and to only pay attention to the stove pipe to wall specs .
> 
> Eric



That’s great that they said that but the installation requirements require 16-18 (sorry I forget) minimum clearance to combustibles to the filter box. It’s one of the very few hard requirements.

I could understand providing recommended maintenance access but this is a required clearance.

I’m in a shop situation with an overhead door so I want to be up to spec.


----------



## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> We chatted about my plans last spring but I have 3 Johnson control digital controllers controlling the damper, blower on, and blower speed, 3 powered dampers, 8 relays, a 24vac transformer.
> 
> It allows the gas furnace and wood furnace to operate in a common set of duct work with both systems being authorized to operate at the same time, though they don't operate at the same time...most of the time.  It absolutely works.



sweet!  8 relays      It's nice having a fully automated system isn't it?  Sounds like a more complicated version of mine, although mine's not sharing return ductwork.  IIRC, you had to because you have your furnace in the garage or something.  

I recall you mentioning something in this thread about wanting to come up with something, but I don't recall hearing any details.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> It’s one of the very few hard requirements.


So what's your question then?


----------



## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> So what's your question then?



I read it online in the manual. Is it a mistake, has anybody gotten written clarification to ignore it, is it real, and do all furnaces have this silly requirement? You know, basically WTF is it with that lame requirement?


----------



## KC Matt

JRHAWK9 said:


> sweet!  8 relays      It's nice having a fully automated system isn't it?  Sounds like a more complicated version of mine, although mine's not sharing return ductwork.  IIRC, you had to because you have your furnace in the garage or something.
> 
> I recall you mentioning something in this thread about wanting to come up with something, but I don't recall hearing any details.



That's correct.  The tundra is attached to both supply and return, and the only option is to install it in the basement garage.  I spent 3 years figuring out how to make this really work starting with the on/off switch the furnace came with.  Since I have a job and couldn't spend every minute of every day babysitting this thing I had to figure out a way to automate it.  Today it's as close to perfect as it could be.  It's the Mahomes of furnace installs.

I posted my schematic last fall or spring and didn't get much feedback.  Ran it by my buddies who work with electronic circuits for a living and didn't get much help.  Finally just figured I would do it.  Built an enclosure, wired it up, walked away, came back to find errors, fixed them and walked away came back looked it over and didn't find errors, plugged it in, fired it up and.....the damned thing works.


----------



## KC Matt

Highbeam said:


> I read it online in the manual. Is it a mistake, has anybody gotten written clarification to ignore it, is it real, and do all furnaces have this silly requirement? You know, basically WTF is it with that lame requirement?



If you have clearance for the chimney you are good.  Use double wall black pipe the clearance is 6".  ZERO clearance is needed for the cabinet of the furnace aside from the front.


----------



## JRHAWK9

KC Matt said:


> That's correct.  The tundra is attached to both supply and return, and the only option is to install it in the basement garage.  I spent 3 years figuring out how to make this really work starting with the on/off switch the furnace came with.  Since I have a job and couldn't spend every minute of every day babysitting this thing I had to figure out a way to automate it.  Today it's as close to perfect as it could be.  It's the Mahomes of furnace installs.
> 
> I posted my schematic last fall or spring and didn't get much feedback.  Ran it by my buddies who work with electronic circuits for a living and didn't get much help.  Finally just figured I would do it.  Built an enclosure, wired it up, walked away, came back to find errors, fixed them and walked away came back looked it over and didn't find errors, plugged it in, fired it up and.....the damned thing works.




I had the same issues when asking master electricians I know to look over my wiring. Basically ignored me.  I think it's a liability thing.  Don't want to give an OK in case something would happen and then have the "well you OK'd it for me" thrown back at them. 

That's awesome though.  Glad it works for ya.  I should look for that schematic.

edit.  I found the post and now I remember it.  I remember having a hard time following what you were trying to accomplish.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> I read it online in the manual. Is it a mistake, has anybody gotten written clarification to ignore it, is it real, and do all furnaces have this silly requirement? You know, basically WTF is it with that lame requirement?


 NFPA rules...applies to everything


KC Matt said:


> Use double wall black pipe the clearance is 6". ZERO clearance is needed for the cabinet of the furnace aside from the front.


Same clearance for both single and doublewall pipe...Englander NC30 is that way too...and the cabinet clearance is 11" on one side, 24" on the other


----------



## Highbeam

KC Matt said:


> If you have clearance for the chimney you are good.  Use double wall black pipe the clearance is 6".  ZERO clearance is needed for the cabinet of the furnace aside from the front.



That’s what I’m hoping for!


----------



## KC Matt

It's funny, but I think those guys clock out and don't want to think any more.  One buddy is an engineer who designs integrated circuits for a living, another builds refrigeration systems and another troubleshoots stationary backup generators.  All of those are more complicated than what I built but nobody wanted to get involved in this thing. I understand.

I am sure they are like me; so much demand on our time they just didn't want to get dragged into this thing.  One buddy has promised to make a correct schematic for me so that when I'm gone a tech can figure out what I've built.  One day somebody will need to service this thing.  My schematic works, but it's not correct from a technical perspective.


----------



## KC Matt

brenndatomu said:


> NFPA rules...applies to everything
> 
> Same clearance for both single and doublewall pipe...Englander NC30 is that way too...and the cabinet clearance is 11" on one side, 24" on the other


I'm sure you are correct; those are the clearances.  In reality there is zero heat coming from the cabinet aside from the front of the cabinet which is substantial and cannot be ignored, and the rear chimney.  Aside from that there is no heat coming from the cabinet



Highbeam said:


> That’s what I’m hoping for!



Well I'm only talking about the real world.  I don't worry much about regulations.  If you want to be compliant for insurance purposes ignore me.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> Seems they still benefit from the aftermarket temp controller mod...right @Case1030 ...



Definitely a worthwhile investment. The mod  will allow the furnace to load and go. 

I'm also thinking about setting a thermostat in tandem with the timer circuit to allow faster heating of the house at the same time keeping limits and low alarms in check.


----------



## Case1030

For example when I'm away for 20-24 hours I don't mind coming back to a 60f or lower house. My house backup heat is set for 50f so any thing above that is my wood furnaces job to keep above.

The timer keeps the wood at a good temp to promote secondary combustion while at the same time I have a low alarm to maintain what I believe is minimum flue temp I like to see.

The thermostat will just keep the tundra at higher temps, but not keep the damper wide open for hours on end.

When I'm at home with 12 hour reload my house isn't falling below 65f. I most of the time have it at 75f without much effort.


----------



## DoubleB

TDD11 said:


> I wondered about installing a small smoke baffle, even a temporary install as a test, in my Tundra. I'm sure it would get annoying - I know my friends whose stoves have those baffles, hate them. But I wish the stove door could be open without a concern about smoke spillage



I'm annoyed by some smoke spillage too when reloading on coals that are hot enough to start smoking new wood but not light it off promptly.  I've also noticed that the smoke spillage stops once I get the bottom half of the firebox filled.  As though when the full 9" door height is open, I get spillage, but when the bottom 4" is blocked with splits, the open top 5" isn't enough space anymore for smoke to spill out.

So with that observation I'm contemplating an experiment to put a smoke baffle at the bottom of the loading door.  Could still drop splits in from the top without getting too much in the way.  I probably won't get around to it soon so I vote that you give it a try.  

I also hope it would partially reduce the fine ash that escapes to the basement as I rake coals.


----------



## KC Matt

wannabewarm said:


> We have been told they will take it back. If they wouldn't,  I think the EPA is the first ones i would contact so they can see how much smoke it produces between calls for heat or if the fire isn't hot enough when you shut the door. Poor poor design.



If you can get a refund for your FC, do it and move on.  A Tundra is a great furnace if you are savvy enough to make it work.  If not, grab your credit card and drop the money for a Kuuma. 

EDIT: I have no experience with the tundra 2 but I'd take a Tundra with a good control system over anything except the Kuuma.  What makes my system work is that it's adjustable, which the Tundra 2 is not.  



brenndatomu said:


> NFPA rules...applies to everything
> 
> Same clearance for both single and doublewall pipe...Englander NC30 is that way too...and the cabinet clearance is 11" on one side, 24" on the other


I don't doubt that you are correct in terms of code or mfg specs, but that's absurd.  The difference in radiant heat in single wall vs double is night and day, especially in an overfire situation.  Simple observation will reveal drastic difference.


----------



## Boilers

How stupid would it be to install a tundra through a wall?

I’m trying to tweak my setup... my basement has a garage type area (where the Tundra resides now) but it’s completely closed off from the finished (living area) portion of the basement. The garage stays super toasty, but
I’d rather have the radiant heat in the living area. On the other hand, I can’t be having this big noisy furnace in my finished basement!

So say I put the front of the stove through the wall maybe 15-20”. I can still maintain clearances by using a steel sheeting surround. It would be easy to fabricate and paint to look decent. I would get the benefit of all the radiant heat, without taking up a bunch of space and being an eye sore. Thoughts anyone?


----------



## sloeffle

KC Matt said:


> It's funny, but I think those guys clock out and don't want to think any more.


I get it. I work on computers for a living and the last thing I want to hear about is someone's computer problems when I talk to them. The funny thing is that I don't even work on desktops or laptops at work. If they keep bugging me, I will help them but it usually requires beer to be present.


----------



## DoubleB

Boilers said:


> So say I put the front of the stove through the wall maybe 15-20”. I can still maintain clearances by using a steel sheeting surround. It would be easy to fabricate and paint to look decent. I would get the benefit of all the radiant heat, without taking up a bunch of space and being an eye sore. Thoughts anyone?



I think that's gotta be a new one.  Sounds clever, but that's probably what would make me leery too.  Seems the more clever the idea, the more hidden is the real reason not to.  

For example, it's only after you rig up your straddle-the-fence Tundra, that you realize you can't access the damper control from the loading door.  Or your draft is causing problems because the baro damper is in one room while the combustion air inlets are in the other room.  Or your sheet metal shroud becomes a drumhead louder than what you're trying to avoid.  

That's just me.  I applaud your creativity!


----------



## Boilers

DoubleB said:


> I think that's gotta be a new one.  Sounds clever, but that's probably what would make me leery too.  Seems the more clever the idea, the more hidden is the real reason not to.
> 
> For example, it's only after you rig up your straddle-the-fence Tundra, that you realize you can't access the damper control from the loading door.  Or your draft is causing problems because the baro damper is in one room while the combustion air inlets are in the other room.  Or your sheet metal shroud becomes a drumhead louder than what you're trying to avoid.
> 
> That's just me.  I applaud your creativity!



Great points! The damper switch could be relocated... heck I could probably mount it on the wall or on the sheet metal surround. That would look nice.

I’m sure some proper engineering could keep the sheet metal surround quiet.

I would not expect having the damper in one room and combustion air in another room to cause an issue. If a shortage of combustion air became an issue, it would certainly be harder to deal with in a way that looked good.

I may have to call SBI and see what they say. This would likely be a spring or summer project, as I need to keep this thing running right now. (Although it was like 50+ degrees today and I cut some wood in a tee shirt)

I have also thought about installing a few “thru wall” or “transfer” fans and control them via a manual switch and the temp controller. The fans would be installed near the furnace and pull the air off the front of the stove, thru the wall, and into the living area. I don’t want to rob the furnace of combustion air though... not sure if that could be an issue.


----------



## brenndatomu

Boilers said:


> I may have to call SBI and see what they say.


I'll tell you what they'll say...nope! They will never sign off on anything they have not tested.


Boilers said:


> The fans would be installed near the furnace and pull the air off the front of the stove, thru the wall, and into the living area. I don’t want to rob the furnace of combustion air though... not sure if that could be an issue.


It could be an issue for sure...could cause burn problems...could gas your household if you pulled smoke out of the furnace...wouldn't be hard to do with the doghouse air being a direct shot into the firebox.


----------



## trx250r87

While others have used a nail or other small, thin piece to help the front air damper remain slightly open, I use a large wire staple in the hole on the door. It never falls out or gets lost. 

Eric
	

		
			
		

		
	







Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Case1030

I have two made up. One for cold, and another one for warm weather. Helps keep my draft stay in optimal range. Never falls out and always closes properly.


----------



## Case1030

Didn't upload the temperature controller I installed last month. Here it is.


----------



## Boilers

brenndatomu said:


> I'll tell you what they'll say...nope! They will never sign off on anything they have not tested.
> 
> It could be an issue for sure...could cause burn problems...could gas your household if you pulled smoke out of the furnace...wouldn't be hard to do with the doghouse air being a direct shot into the firebox.



I’ll still call and see about a through wall setup. Maybe someone has done it before.

I’m not talking about crazy high speed transfer fans. Heck, you don’t hear about people’s return air sucking smoke out of the furnace and circulating it to the house. I doubt it would be an issue, but something to be aware of. The fan(s) would be several feet from the front of the furnace. I’d also install a large grill on the other end of the wall to allow air to circulate. I don’t think it’s a bad idea. 

I need to get that radiant heat into my living space somehow. I don’t have any other ideas at the moment.


----------



## brenndatomu

Boilers said:


> I need to get that radiant heat into my living space somehow


How about a hood over the front of the furnace...collect the heat and blow it in the house...or could just run a line over to the furnace blower. If you ran a line into the house you could shut the fan off while reloading so you don't blow smoke into the house...you could do that with the blower too...but the risk of forgetting to turn the blower back on (and don't kid yourself, it WOULD happen sooner or later) would take that idea out of the running for me.


----------



## maple1

Boilers said:


> Great points! The damper switch could be relocated... heck I could probably mount it on the wall or on the sheet metal surround. That would look nice.
> 
> I’m sure some proper engineering could keep the sheet metal surround quiet.
> 
> I would not expect having the damper in one room and combustion air in another room to cause an issue. If a shortage of combustion air became an issue, it would certainly be harder to deal with in a way that looked good.
> 
> I may have to call SBI and see what they say. This would likely be a spring or summer project, as I need to keep this thing running right now. (Although it was like 50+ degrees today and I cut some wood in a tee shirt)
> 
> I have also thought about installing a few “thru wall” or “transfer” fans and control them via a manual switch and the temp controller. The fans would be installed near the furnace and pull the air off the front of the stove, thru the wall, and into the living area. I don’t want to rob the furnace of combustion air though... not sure if that could be an issue.



Couldn't that be accomplished by ducting, and routing of supply & return air?

Pull return from your furnace room? Send a supply to outside of it?

As long as it didn't mess up your draft situation, of course. 

What is your duct & return situation? (Might have been posted & I missed it).


----------



## Boilers

maple1 said:


> Couldn't that be accomplished by ducting, and routing of supply & return air?
> 
> Pull return from your furnace room? Send a supply to outside of it?
> 
> As long as it didn't mess up your draft situation, of course.
> 
> What is your duct & return situation? (Might have been posted & I missed it).



My supply duct situation isnt great. I sized everything for 1400 CFM, which is what Drolet marketing says the furnace will do, however the blower has 4 speeds and generally runs on speed 1, which is 900 CFM. From the furnace, I have about 10' of 14" round, going into the main trunk which runs from end to end of my house. The main trunk is 58' long. I then have 15 takeoffs from the main trunk. The takeoffs are all 6", but I have 3 registers completely closed and many of them partly closed. Currently the static pressure is about 0.04" WC. Including the main trunk, I have ~250' of duct!  Most of the duct is metal. Some secondary runs are 6" insulated flex.  Currently, I have been working on sealing the duct and I have also purchased some insulation to install over the duct. During initial firing, when plenum temps are ~150, and blower is on speed 2 (1000 CFM), I have seen 113 degrees at registers close to the furnace. The furthest registers never break 100 degrees. During normal operation, most registers are in the low to mid 90's, with the furthest registers being in mid to low 80's.

The return air is a Y. 3' of 12x24 duct into my house return air and 4' of 10x24 into the furnace room. I did this because I dont want to pull too much of a vacuum on my furnace room, since there is a garage door and a couple other spots where cold outside air could be drawn inside. While some fresh air is good, drawing cold air inside is counter productive to heating purposes.


----------



## brenndatomu

Boilers said:


> . During initial firing, when plenum temps are ~150, and blower is on speed 2 (1000 CFM), I have seen 113 degrees at registers close to the furnace. The furthest registers never break 100 degrees. During normal operation, most registers are in the low to mid 90's, with the furthest registers being in mid to low 80's.


This will heat your house. If you look back through this thread you will find that my Tundra rarely broke 120* (125* for sure) plenum temps.
And the way I have the Kuuma set up, its the same way...117* is about as hot as it gets...heats the house just fine.
If you see 150* at the plenum I'd be running the blower on a higher speed...or get a less restrictive filter on the blower. 
Ideally, putting a speed controller on the blower would help the most...blower can run wide open when the heat is there, then later on in the burn it can run low and slow all the way to the end.


----------



## Boilers

brenndatomu said:


> This will heat your house. If you look back through this thread you will find that my Tundra rarely broke 120* (125* for sure) plenum temps.
> And the way I have the Kuuma set up, its the same way...117* is about as hot as it gets...heats the house just fine.
> If you see 150* at the plenum I'd be running the blower on a higher speed...or get a less restrictive filter on the blower.
> Ideally, putting a speed controller on the blower would help the most...blower can run wide open when the heat is there, then later on in the burn it can run low and slow all the way to the end.



I dont see 150 degree plenum for long... only for a few minutes on a new load right before I try to close the damper for the first time. maybe 10 minutes. Once I close the damper, temp will creep its was back down to 125 or so and stay there until the secondaries go out. If secondaries go out, the blower cycling begins soon after (ie. Coaling stage or fire didnt take)


----------



## Boilers

Temp controller is installed and working beautifully. I don’t have a timer at the moment, and I realized pretty quickly why you all have one! It took 3-5 cycles before the fire would actually stay lit. At one point I was quite scared of an explosion, because the fire box had gotten full of smoke and the damper finally kicked open. It poofed a little but not bad.

Now I have to dial it in... I currently have AL1 setup as PV Low Alarm. It’s set at 310 deg with hysteresis of 100. So if temp gets below 310, relay closes and damper opens until temp gets to 410. I will make the hysteresis lower once I get a timer installed... without the big hysteresis  it would cycle like crazy during startup. I kind of have the hardware temporarily rigged. I’ll get an enclosure and pretty it up soon.


----------



## brenndatomu

Boilers said:


> without the big hysteresis it would cycle like crazy during startup


Yes, the timer is key to making this "load n go".
IIRC, I had a 50* hysteresis and it would only cycle once, maybe twice after a hot reload. 350* high/300* low
Edit: now I am questioning myself...maybe the low setting was 250...guess I could scroll back through this thread and find out, huh?! 
Edit the Edit: Yes it was 250 on the low setting


----------



## Boilers

brenndatomu said:


> Yes, the timer is key to making this "load n go".
> IIRC, I had a 50* hysteresis and it would only cycle once, maybe twice after a hot reload. 350* high/300* low
> Edit: now I am questioning myself...maybe the low setting was 250...guess I could scroll back through this thread and find out, huh?!
> Edit the Edit: Yes it was 250 on the low setting



Funny... I was looking back through this thread last night trying to find your settings! you were pretty conservative at 250/300. I dont know that 250 would work for me. I was losing secondaries at ~290 ish. Im sure this value will vary from one fire to the next. It was also 50 degrees outside, so draft could have been a little low, additionally the fire I build was small. I will continue to play with it. By the time I was done playing with the controller last night, I had it set at 295/345.

By the way... holy cow! Internal flue temps are nearly double what my IR gun was reading on the outside of the single wall stove pipe, 12" outside of the furnace! So that one time when I saw 400+ degrees on the outside..... (probably truly only 650-700 on the inside, but still!)

Here soon, I will draw an electrical schematic for the controls and upload it for everyone.


----------



## Highbeam

Boilers said:


> By the way... holy cow! Internal flue temps are nearly double what my IR gun was reading on the outside of the single wall stove pipe, 12" outside of the furnace! So that one time when I saw 400+ degrees on the outside..... (probably truly only 650-700 on the inside, but still!)



That's totally expected. The skin temperature of single wall pipe is only approximately half of internal gas temperatures. That said, 400 external is not too hot. It corresponds with 800 internal and Class A is rated for 1000 degrees continuously.


----------



## Boilers

For all those interested, I am working on a new control system for my Heatmax II. Since I am an automation engineer, and a bit of a geek, I decided its appropriate. Basically I will have 16 output relays, 16 inputs, 8 analog inputs and 8 analog outputs. The possibilities will be endless!


----------



## JRHAWK9

Boilers said:


> For all those interested, I am working on a new control system for my Heatmax II. Since I am an automation engineer, and a bit of a geek, I decided its appropriate. Basically I will have 16 output relays, 16 inputs, 8 analog inputs and 8 analog outputs. The possibilities will be endless!




freakin' sweet!!


----------



## sloeffle

Any idea on cost ?


----------



## Boilers

sloeffle said:


> Any idea on cost ?



I highly doubt it makes sense for me to do this... not with the equipment I am using. You could likely buy an Automation Direct PLC, with the Inputs and Outputs you need for relatively cheap. These controllers are not really industrial (my opinion), so we dont use them at work, but I know some places do. I've heard good reviews. The software is free also! For someone unfamiliar with PLC's, this might not be for you, but theres tons of video tutorials on these. Biggest thing is to make sure you do things safely. Put the controller/relays, power supply's in an enclosure and be sure to fuse anything that consumes power. 

This would probably work:  https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...s_(stackable_micro_brick)/plc_units/c0-02dr-d


----------



## Case1030

Are barometric dampers useful on short chimneys (15-16ft).

Been having a few windy days here, usually on calm and warm days I have to add a nail to keep my air intake open a bit (like others with shorter chimneya) to maintain good secondarys. I might have to put a baro in to save fiddling around, but am worried it will rob chimney draft on the warm or calm days.

Also flue temps run around 350f on the average day for my unit. After a reload this morning with high winds it was sitting at 500f.


----------



## Boilers

Case1030 said:


> Are barometric dampers useful on short chimneys (15-16ft).
> 
> Been having a few windy days here, usually on calm and warm days I have to add a nail to keep my air intake open a bit (like others with shorter chimneya) to maintain good secondarys. I might have to put a baro in to save fiddling around, but am worried it will rob chimney draft on the warm or calm days.
> 
> Also flue temps run around 350f on the average day for my unit. After a reload this morning with high winds it was sitting at 500f.



I cannot comment for your specific situation, but my flue is 23FT straight up and 2 FT horizontal. On a calm cold day, the draft can be high. 0.8-1.0 in vacuum. Cold and windy, Ive seen it spike over 2.0 and maintain 1.2. I then installed a field logic baro and watched it closely for a long time. It has performed so well, that I barely even look at it any more, other than the occasional once over to make sure it doesnt get clogged caught up on creosote.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Boilers said:


> other than the occasional once over to make sure it doesnt get clogged caught on creosote.



So creosote build up is normal on the back of a baro?


----------



## Case1030

Boilers said:


> I cannot comment for your specific situation, but my flue is 23FT straight up and 2 FT horizontal. On a calm cold day, the draft can be high. 0.8-1.0 in vacuum. Cold and windy, Ive seen it spike over 2.0 and maintain 1.2. I then installed a field logic baro and watched it closely for a long time. It has performed so well, that I barely even look at it any more, other than the occasional once over to make sure it doesnt get clogged caught up on creosote.



Isnt there always a little air going up the chimney with a baro (not perfectly sealed around the flap)?


----------



## Boilers

Mrpelletburner said:


> So creosote build up is normal on the back of a baro?




Its normal for me! Im newer to burning wood though. I have been super careful about creosote because of this. Ive cleaned my heat exchangers and the flue twice this year. I know my wood isnt fully seasoned, so it gives me peace of mind. Ive had minimal buildup in the firebox. The heat exchangers have been caked in 1/8" of creosote, sort of like a dry paste. Ive also noticed the back of the baro has more of a tacky coating on the back of it and a little on the T.  Other than this, Ive swept the flue twice and each time I probably got 2 cups of completely dry material.


Yes Case1030, theres is always some air going through the baro, even when the baro is closed.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> Isnt there always a little air going up the chimney with a baro (not perfectly sealed around the flap)?



yes, not only is the flap not sealed but most of the time the flap is actually partially open, and can be open a fair amount depending on conditions.


----------



## laynes69

Case1030 said:


> Are barometric dampers useful on short chimneys (15-16ft).
> 
> Been having a few windy days here, usually on calm and warm days I have to add a nail to keep my air intake open a bit (like others with shorter chimneya) to maintain good secondarys. I might have to put a baro in to save fiddling around, but am worried it will rob chimney draft on the warm or calm days.
> 
> Also flue temps run around 350f on the average day for my unit. After a reload this morning with high winds it was sitting at 500f.


I wouldn't do it. You'll have windy days, but a baro doesn't completely close, so it would spoil your draft. Especially when the fire does down, you will still have plenty of draft without a baro.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> I might have to put a baro in to save fiddling around, but am worried it will rob chimney draft on the warm or calm days.


You'll be fine...on a warm day if the draft is below -0.06" (or whatever you set it at) then the baro wont open...or very little anyways...it will maintain 0.06 as long as you have enough heat in the chimney to do so...it will not rob draft.
Put one in and try it....is easy to pop off and cap the tee if you don't like it...or you could do what I did...just cover it with some HD aluminum foil on days that you don't want to use it...that's what my sister does on their Tundra baro with a 15' chimney...works out great.


----------



## sloeffle

Do you guys find that you get longer burn times when you push the wood to the back of the stove vs having it a few inches from the front ? Most of my wood is 16" long.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Do you guys find that you get longer burn times when you push the wood to the back of the stove vs having it a few inches from the front ? Most of my wood is 16" long.


I always shoved stuff back as far as I could, but I didn't have anything under 20" though either...usually left a few pieces out to the front on the coals to get things going.


----------



## Case1030

False alarm guys. I thought it was the wind draft screwing me around with the high flue... 

I feel like an idiot, a couple days ago forgot to push the baffle from the front of the firebox after I did my monthly heat exchanger clean out.

I was really confused because high wind have only ever brought my flue from 350- 400f at the most. I guess I wont be needing a baro after all.


----------



## 3fordasho

Case1030 said:


> False alarm guys. I thought it was the wind draft screwing me around with the high flue...
> 
> I feel like an idiot, a couple days ago forgot to push the baffle from the front of the firebox after I did my monthly heat exchanger clean out.
> 
> I was really confused because high wind have only ever brought my flue from 350- 400f at the most. I guess I wont be needing a baro after all.




I've got the same chimney height and a couple times every heating season when I get high enough winds from the south (no tree protection from that direction) I will see 500F+ flue temps.  Otherwise 350-400 is normal for me as well.  During those relatively rare events I remove the paper clip that holds the air inlet slightly open and use aluminum tape to reduce the openings for secondary air by about half to tame things down a bit.   I did purchase a BD and probably should install it but so far have not.  The extra flue temp during these events also increases plenum temps and with no tree protection from the south the house needs the extra heat.


----------



## sloeffle

Boilers said:


> I highly doubt it makes sense for me to do this... not with the equipment I am using. You could likely buy an Automation Direct PLC, with the Inputs and Outputs you need for relatively cheap. These controllers are not really industrial (my opinion), so we dont use them at work, but I know some places do. I've heard good reviews. The software is free also! For someone unfamiliar with PLC's, this might not be for you, but theres tons of video tutorials on these. Biggest thing is to make sure you do things safely. Put the controller/relays, power supply's in an enclosure and be sure to fuse anything that consumes power.
> 
> This would probably work:  https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...s_(stackable_micro_brick)/plc_units/c0-02dr-d


I took Allen Bradley PLC classes many moons ago ( 2000ish ) in college. I work on computers for a living now so I’m familiar with writing code. I thought about hooking a Raspberry Pi up but I don’t think it would be ideal to use for this type of thing.

Thanks for the link. I’ll take a look.


----------



## Case1030

3fordasho said:


> I've got the same chimney height and a couple times every heating season when I get high enough winds from the south (no tree protection from that direction) I will see 500F+ flue temps.  Otherwise 350-400 is normal for me as well.  During those relatively rare events I remove the paper clip that holds the air inlet slightly open and use aluminum tape to reduce the openings for secondary air by about half to tame things down a bit.   I did purchase a BD and probably should install it but so far have not.  The extra flue temp during these events also increases plenum temps and with no tree protection from the south the house needs the extra heat.



Are you using the same temp controller settings as before? Think it's like 600f off/ 400f on when your timer is activated along with 275 minimum flue...

Also do you still own both of the original Tundra1 no cracks?


----------



## 3fordasho

Case1030 said:


> Are you using the same temp controller settings as before? Think it's like 600f off/ 400f on when your timer is activated along with 275 minimum flue...
> 
> Also do you still own both of the original Tundra1 no cracks?



Pretty much same settings, 625f off, 425f on, 280f minimum flue.  Still using both Tundra's, The one in the house that runs full time just developed its first crack this heating season.
	

		
			
		

		
	







I'm not too concerned about it ;-)  This furnace owes me nothing.


----------



## Case1030

3fordasho said:


> Pretty much same settings, 625f off, 425f on, 280f minimum flue.  Still using both Tundra's, The one in the house that runs full time just developed its first crack this heating season.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 238447
> 
> 
> I'm not too concerned about it ;-)  This furnace owes me nothing.



When that one is worn out hit sbi up and get your new t2 lol. I'd say that's the best investment putting a temp controller on that funace. How many times does your damper open per heating cycle?


----------



## 3fordasho

Case1030 said:


> When that one is worn out hit sbi up and get your new t2 lol. I'd say that's the best investment putting a temp controller on that funace. How many times does your damper open per hearing cycle?



Even with the minor cracking I can see this thing going another 5-10 years no problem.  I wouldn't own one with out the additional controls, my favorite part of the furnace.  The variable speed blower modification is right up there too.  As far a number of damper openings, it depends a lot on wood size, moisture content and wood load.  A full load of really dry elm split medium/small will not cycle the damper much at all till into the coaling stage.  Tonight I had a load of larger split size elm and hard maple that could be a bit dryer- that load cycled the damper some though out the entire burn cycle.


----------



## Case1030

3fordasho said:


> Even with the minor cracking I can see this thing going another 5-10 years no problem.  I wouldn't own one with out the additional controls, my favorite part of the furnace.  The variable speed blower modification is right up there too.  As far a number of damper openings, it depends a lot on wood size, moisture content and wood load.  A full load of really dry elm split medium/small will not cycle the damper much at all till into the coaling stage.  Tonight I had a load of larger split size elm and hard maple that could be a bit dryer- that load cycled the damper some though out the entire burn cycle.



Oh yeah I found the same. Iv been burning subpar wood, but notice when I add my nice 3 year old css oak it makes a huge difference. 

Thats pretty impressive results. Your still loading both shop and house stove every day?


----------



## 3fordasho

Case1030 said:


> Oh yeah I found the same. Iv been burning subpar wood, but notice when I add my nice 3 year old css oak it makes a huge difference.
> 
> Thats pretty impressive results. Your still loading both shop and house stove every day?



Three loads a day thru the house furnace, shop furnace when needed for projects - couple nights a week plus week ends much of the time. I do have a propane unit heater that kicks on at 34F for times when I'm not out there to stoke the wood furnace.  The propane heater really only runs when I need the extra heat to quickly warm a cold shop, the wood furnace alone would take hours - lots of cold concrete out there.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> notice when I add my nice 3 year old css oak it makes a huge difference.



How does it make a big difference? Besides starting really quick.


----------



## Boilers

Mrpelletburner said:


> How does it make a big difference? Besides starting really quick.



In a nut shell: Wet wood tends to want to smolder when only secondary air is available. Having some dry wood mixed in with the wet wood, the dry wood flames keep the wet wood burning.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> How does it make a big difference? Besides starting really quick.



Burns longer than my other wood (maple, ash, jack pine, elm). Around here oak is the premium wood if css for 3 years. I guess you could compare it to black locust because that's the only wood species here that comes close to the btu.


----------



## DoubleB

3fordasho said:


> The one in the house that runs full time just developed its first crack this heating season.



Sorry to hear that, but ironic I was just thinking about you a couple days ago that you're the only Tundra 1 (x2) I can think of that hadn't cracked yet.  

Can we think of any uncracked Tundras out there yet?


----------



## trx250r87

Mine has not cracked yet...

Eric

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Well guys second heating season crack crack


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Guys am I missing something because this is my second season heating with this season wood super dry and this thing is struggling to keep me warm on a 30 degree day. The first season I had windows open I’m cleaning the chimney and heat exchanger is there something I’m over looking. Chimney draft on manomometer is -.04-0.6 any help would be appreciated


----------



## brenndatomu

Hows it burning? Everything seem good overall?
Check your baffle, make sure its in its proper place and slid clear back


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Burns well and clean burn times are shitty bc its constantly calling for heat house is only 1300sq foot baffle is all the way back. How do the burn tubes come out so I can remove baffle and scrape maybe there buildup I couldn’t feel anything with my hand. My duct temps are only 80-85 compared to last year around 110


----------



## JRHAWK9

Teglovinvtec said:


> this thing is struggling to keep me warm on a 30 degree day.





Teglovinvtec said:


> I had windows open





Teglovinvtec said:


> Guys am I missing something



well, did you remember to close the windows?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Teglovinvtec said:


> My duct temps are only 80-85 compared to last year around 110



What is the difference in your ΔT (return vs supply temp) from this year to last?  Supply temps will only tell one side of the story.

Are you 100% *SURE *you are burning dry wood?

How about stack temps?  Have those gone up over last year?


----------



## brenndatomu

The manual shows how to get the tubes out...just a partial twist, then slide it sideways and out...I'd pop a couple out and pull the baffle...check to see how much buildup is on the top of the firebox above the baffle board...that is a large heat exchange area too...doesnt usually need cleaned, but something has changed for you!


----------



## Teglovinvtec

I’ll check it out today


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Well I pulled the burn tubes out cleaned the top part of firebox we will see what happens. I also saw that the baffle on top wasn’t seated completely where it goes I’m guessing when loading it moved


----------



## brenndatomu

That thing running wide open for long periods of time is what SBI was claiming is making them crack...not that I buy that theory...its certainly not the most efficient way to run them!
Did you hook up a tstat that you weren't using before?


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Been using a tstat since day one


----------



## sloeffle

Teglovinvtec said:


> Been using a tstat since day one


I'd ditch the tstat. I haven't used mine in probably 6 years. All the tstat will do is send hot air up the chimney by opening up the baffle up front.

What is the MC of your wood ?


----------



## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> Been using a tstat since day one


Any difference since you cleaned it?
When you clean the HE's, do they clean up real nice, like down to bare metal? I had one time I got into a little wood that was apparently not as dry as it could have been, left a hard layer of soot on the HE walls...really had to scratch to get it all off...it helped, but still didn't make a huge difference.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Question regarding the operation of the Tundra II.

Without any mods installed, out of the box setup, does the distribution blower stay on without the thermostat calling for heat.

Trying to get a better understanding of how this furnace functions. I know the thermostat controls the primary air by opening/closing a flap. Just wondering how many people actually use the thermostat to control the heat.

Can’t locate any videos of this unit on YouTube.

Also looking for a video on how the Caddy operates.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Without any mods installed, out of the box setup, does the distribution blower stay on without the thermostat calling for heat.


Yes, it runs strictly based on firebox (actually, plenum) temps.


Mrpelletburner said:


> Also looking for a video on how the Caddy operates.


They operate the same. They are very much the same unit, just the changes (that we discussed here recently, somewhere) made to drive the price down some....Chevy vs Cadillac kind of thing...


----------



## Boilers

hows everyones furnace keeping up in these cold midwest temps? Its been getting down into the low single digits here in Indiana and my furnace is losing ground on overnight burns. went to bed at 65 last night and woke up to 60 this morning. I'm not sure what else I can do at this point...other than the "through wall" installation I talked about before.  I called Drolet and said they do not recommend the through wall installation. They said it hasnt been tested, and therefore they cannot "okay" it, however they said its ultimately my decision. In my opinion, the manual does not explicitly say that you cant do it and I can still abide by all the rules laid out in the manual about installation. Therefore, I cannot see a problem. Im going to set this on the back burner... but if I cant make this thing run better by spring. Its going through the wall! (or maybe the wall will move )


----------



## brenndatomu

Boilers said:


> hows everyones furnace keeping up in these cold midwest temps?


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/uh-oh-whats-this.172989/page-5#post-2331965


Boilers said:


> I called Drolet and said they do not recommend the through wall installation. They said it hasnt been tested, and therefore they cannot "okay" it,


Hmm...that sounds familiar...


----------



## Boilers

brenndatomu said:


> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/uh-oh-whats-this.172989/page-5#post-2331965
> 
> Hmm...that sounds familiar...



yeah you were right. He did say I could do it if I wanted, but that it could put the furnace at risk by not allowing it to breathe, and also my home/family at risk of house fire. I promptly responded that the only  thing touching the furnace would be at most 1/8" sheet metal surround. and the rooms on either side of the furnace would be completely open, and also that I dont see how its a fire risk if I abide by all combustible clearances in the manual. Thats when he mentioned that since it wasnt tested, he couldnt "okay" it and that my insurance may have an issue as well. I just dont see how this would induce any more risk than what I have currently. Insurance is commonly "okay" with this type of setup on an insert. This furnace doesnt even get hot other than the front. 

Dont go sending me links about your Kuuma stove! We cant all change stoves every other year and spend twice as much as the Tundra!


----------



## JRHAWK9

Boilers said:


> hows everyones furnace keeping up in these cold midwest temps?



Start at post 116 and read down:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/uh-oh-whats-this.172989/page-5#post-2330679



Boilers said:


> Dont go sending me links about your Kuuma stove! We cant all change stoves every other year and spend twice as much as the Tundra!



oops, just saw this and also saw bren posted the same thread, but different post.  Good thing we have Kuuma furnaces and not stoves then, eh?   

https://www.kumastoves.com/


----------



## brenndatomu

Boilers said:


> spend twice as much as the Tundra!


Me either...that's why I bought used 

To be fair, I still have affectionate feelings toward the (modded) Tundra...although it probably does not feel the same for me, since it sits freezing away in my garage right now...


----------



## Wood1Dennis

Mrpelletburner said:


> Question regarding the operation of the Tundra II.
> .....
> Trying to get a better understanding of how this furnace functions. I know the thermostat controls the primary air by opening/closing a flap. Just wondering how many people actually use the thermostat to control the heat.
> 
> Can’t locate any videos of this unit on YouTube.
> 
> Also looking for a video on how the Caddy operates.



I use the thermostat on my Caddy. On my Caddy the stat open and closes the primary air damper / flap. I only made one minor modification to it, I added an adjustment so that I can control how far it is opened when the stat calls for heat. I posted in this thread #2103. In my opinion that is a really good addition to furnace. When it closes, the furnace still gets enough primary air to keep it burning cleanly, and not smoldering, but closing the damper slows it down to help control the temp in the house. Secondaries are wide open, not regulated.My Caddy was new in early 2016, they have made updates since then so I am not sure how the newest ones compare. 

With some ash in the box I can easily hold good hot coals and get a matchless relight in 11 or 12 hours.


----------



## brenndatomu

Wood1Dennis said:


> I posted in this thread #2103.


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/everything-drolet-tundra-heatmax.140788/page-85#post-2138788


----------



## JRHAWK9

I was thinking about those furnaces which use a call for heat to open the primary air and then close once the house makes temp.  I would think it would be of high importance to properly size the furnace to the heat demand of the house?  I would be very nervous if the house is constantly calling for heat which is keeping the primary air hanging open.  I'd think this could lead to overfiring the furnace in short order.  Take for instance if you are being subjected to some crazy azz below normal cold temps and the house temp you have the thermostat set to can't be obtained; leading to the primary damper being held open throughout a burn cycle.  What would you guys do then?  I'd assume there would have to be some monitoring going on at some point to keep the furnace from going nuclear?


----------



## trx250r87

I'm pretty sure the high temp limit should trip and shut the damper. 

Eric


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> I was thinking about those furnaces which use a call for heat to open the primary air and then close once the house makes temp.  I would think it would be of high importance to properly size the furnace to the heat demand of the house?  I would be very nervous if the house is constantly calling for heat which is keeping the primary air hanging open.  I'd think this could lead to overfiring the furnace in short order.  Take for instance if you are being subjected to some crazy azz below normal cold temps and the house temp you have the thermostat set to can't be obtained; leading to the primary damper being held open throughout a burn cycle.  What would you guys do then?  I'd assume there would have to be some monitoring going on at some point to keep the furnace from going nuclear?


Thats exactly the reason for the temp controller mod...which to be fair, they do have a factory switch to override the "call for heat" if the furnace gets too hot...but at least on the T1, it was pretty stinkin hot at that point...one reason SBI updated the switch location from rear, to top after they started having crack issues. Even if it doesn't overheat the furnace, its an inefficient way to run...


----------



## JRHAWK9

trx250r87 said:


> I'm pretty sure the high temp limit should trip and shut the damper.
> 
> Eric




Isn't this limit measuring plenum temps though?  Depending on your install, plenum temps may not be a good indication of actual firebox temps, as plenum temps seem to differ quite a bit from install to install.




brenndatomu said:


> Thats exactly the reason for the temp controller mod...which to be fair, they do have a factory switch to override the "call for heat" if the furnace gets too hot...but at least on the T1, it was pretty stinkin hot at that point...one reason SBI updated the switch location from rear, to top after they started having crack issues. Even if it doesn't overheat the furnace, its an inefficient way to run...



yeah, I can definitely see the advantage of the temp controller.  I'm thinking more along the lines of controlling them while stock.  So, the limit switch is just measuring air jacket/plenum temps then?  Interesting.

It -is- an inefficient way to run, I was just curious how one goes about keeping them from over-heating.


----------



## brenndatomu

The original T1 had a snap switch mounted so it read the temp of the back of the firebox...but that had such a delayed response time that they moved it to above the center heat exchanger tube...that was better...but I like having the TC of the temp controller right inside the stove pipe 1-2' away...


----------



## laynes69

The open and close damper works well in subzero weather. You just use common sense, if your house won't hit 73 with a hot fire, you don't set it to 75 and go to bed. By the time I close down our furnace, it will climb when I go to bed. If I set the thermostat at 72, I will wake to 70-71 in the house in the morning. Our furnace isn't modified (yet), just the temp settings and it works just fine. My previous furnace would eat almost twice the amount of wood with a 2 to 3 hour less burn in this weather. In mild weather, the open close damper will keep the house at a set temperature for hours.


----------



## laynes69

JRHAWK9 said:


> It -is- an inefficient way to run, I was just curious how one goes about keeping them from over-heating.



I've fallen asleep with our damper set at 80 in subzero weather and I've fallen asleep with the loading door ajar all night, without any damage. I know this because I've had the air jacket off the firebox. Hell, there wasn't even any signs of burnt paint anywhere on the furnace. I set our plenum limit at around 175 degrees. It produces a damn hot furnace and closes the damper until the plenum drops to 140 then opens back up. While the Tundra's were cracking, the Caddy line has a full air jacket surrounding the entire firebox, including front to keep them cool. I'll tell you from first hand experience, they will crank heat and take a beating.


----------



## 3fordasho

Mrpelletburner said:


> Question regarding the operation of the Tundra II.
> 
> Without any mods installed, out of the box setup, does the distribution blower stay on without the thermostat calling for heat.
> 
> Trying to get a better understanding of how this furnace functions. I know the thermostat controls the primary air by opening/closing a flap. Just wondering how many people actually use the thermostat to control the heat.
> 
> Can’t locate any videos of this unit on YouTube.
> 
> Also looking for a video on how the Caddy operates.



Distribution blower completely independent from the thermostat. I've had a thermostat connected but never turned it to the "heat" position.
I just disconnected it a couple weeks ago so I could use the extra wiring to connect my new wifi thermostat and hook up the 2nd stage for the propane FA furnace. (propane seldom runs but is a backup when I am away and the wifi thermostat has some nice remote access, logging and alarm features that are neat).

To me a thermostat calling for heat on a Tundra (II) or caddy just put it in inefficient wood hog mode


----------



## Highbeam

trx250r87 said:


> I'm pretty sure the high temp limit should trip and shut the damper.
> 
> Eric



Also known as "bouncing off the rev limiter"!

Why can't you just set these furnaces for "medium" output? I guess I really like a thermostatic stove that you can choose a desired output and the burn rate is automatically controlled to deliver that output safely, constantly, and without fiddling with the intake settings.

That's a kuuma isn't it?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Highbeam said:


> Also known as "bouncing off the rev limiter"!
> 
> Why can't you just set these furnaces for "medium" output? I guess I really like a thermostatic stove that you can choose a desired output and the burn rate is automatically controlled to deliver that output safely, constantly, and without fiddling with the intake settings.
> 
> That's a kuuma isn't it?



yes, it is.
This is why the amount of wood you load is imperative.  You load too much wood on a warmer day and set the computer to low.  The furnace doesn't give two $hits if your house is currently sitting at 85°; it's going to burn whatever's in the firebox cleanly and optimally at the heat output you have the computer set to.


----------



## laynes69

3fordasho said:


> To me a thermostat calling for heat on a Tundra (II) or caddy just put it in inefficient wood hog mode



Not necessarily. I've had the damper remain open for hours and still got 8 hours between loads with the heating demand kept. I could disable the damper and get a much longer burn time, however it wouldn't heat the house. That's where the unit should be sized correctly. If the call for heat requires the damper to remain open for the majority of the burn, then the furnace is too small. Our old furnace would burn 6 cuft of wood or more in 6 hours....that's a wood hog!


----------



## JRHAWK9

<edit>sorry, I just realized I posted this in the Tundra thread.  I wasn't paying attention to what thread I was in and was just going with the flow of the conversation.  I am the master of pulling threads off topic.   </edit>

Just to give those not up on how the Kuuma operates.

On Sunday, for the heck of it, I put the Kuuma on max burn after loading a smallish 38lb load.  It brought our pig of a house up to 76° in double digit below zero outside temps.  During the process I was watching the firebox temps (by way of a MyPin) and damper automatically do their thing.  Obviously, when trying to maintain internal firebox temps which are that high the damper will open and close repeatedly during the burn process.  The firebox temp setpoint for max burn is around the 1,385° area.  The damper will close when the internal firebox at the tc location reaches this temperature.  The tc is located in the collar between the firebox and the heat exchanger, which is where/near where most of the secondary combustion takes place.  When temps reach that 1,385° setpoint, the damper closes, firebox temps will continue to rise for a bit (1,450° or so) and then they will gradually start to come back down.  When they drop a couple degrees under that 1,385° threshold the damper will open back up to '1' (the smallest open position) until they once again reach 1,385°.  Rinse and repeat.  It does this for the whole burn cycle, until at some point the temperature fails to reach 1,385° and the damper then remains open at '1'.  Does this same thing for stages '2' and '3', at temps I did not take note of.  I was getting pretty much consistent max plenum temps (within a degree or two) throughout the burn into when the damper opens to '3'.

Burning like this will consume wood at a rate of about 8lbs/hr.  So a full firebox of oak in ~8-9 hours with lots of coals left yet.


----------



## DoubleB

JRHAWK9 said:


> I put the Kuuma on max burn





JRHAWK9 said:


> Burning like this will consume wood at a rate of about 8lbs/hr.



Isn't 8 lbs about 56,000 Btu/hr total heat produced, or maybe 40-45,000 BTU into the ductwork?  Isn't Kuuma max burn rated for three times more than that?  Just curious where the numbers are disappearing, unless maybe the Kuuma rating is at peak burn.


----------



## brenndatomu

DoubleB said:


> Isn't 8 lbs about 56,000 Btu/hr total heat produced, or maybe 40-45,000 BTU into the ductwork?  Isn't Kuuma max burn rated for three times more than that?  Just curious where the numbers are disappearing, unless maybe the Kuuma rating is at peak burn.


Cut from the Kuuma site...
"In mild weather you use a low setting for 15-25,000 BTU’s/hr., in moderate weather a medium setting for 25-45,000 BTU’s/hr., and in cold weather a high setting for 45-60,000 BTU’s / hr."


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Seems to be better after cleaning it I had 110 on duct work temp and 226 on stack temp but it’s goin off a inferred what’s your temps like this thing was rippin when I measured


----------



## JRHAWK9

DoubleB said:


> Isn't 8 lbs about 56,000 Btu/hr total heat produced, or maybe 40-45,000 BTU into the ductwork?  Isn't Kuuma max burn rated for three times more than that?  .



No, if it was rated for that much output it would be two times that of what the Max Caddy is rated at!    It would also be consuming A LOT more wood at a -much- faster rate that what it does.  I'm not sure there's even a wood furnace currently on the market which is rated for 150KBTU/hr.  I'm talking realistic output, not marketing jargon.  150KBTU/hr is boiler output, those are not burning 24/7.


----------



## Wood1Dennis

JRHAWK9 said:


> I was thinking about those furnaces which use a call for heat to open the primary air and then close once the house makes temp.  I would think it would be of high importance to properly size the furnace to the heat demand of the house?  I would be very nervous if the house is constantly calling for heat which is keeping the primary air hanging open.  I'd think this could lead to overfiring the furnace in short order.  Take for instance if you are being subjected to some crazy azz below normal cold temps and the house temp you have the thermostat set to can't be obtained; leading to the primary damper being held open throughout a burn cycle.  What would you guys do then?  I'd assume there would have to be some monitoring going on at some point to keep the furnace from going nuclear?



JR, this is pretty much exactly why I added the adjustment for my primary air. When it get really cold, and the firebox is loaded full, I adjust the primary air damper way down so it is really open just a slit. That way even when if the stat calls for heat all day it will not over-fire. It works great! In other cases, maybe shoulder season when I only have a small load because I don't need as much heat, I set the damper to a more open position and let her go. Its my simple control system, simple but it works.


----------



## Case1030

Anyone with an ICM controler on there sleeve bearing furnace... Looking for some input. How slow does your fan go when it's about to kick off?

I tried my ICM hooked upto blower speed 1 and also tried blower speed 2. Got similar results works great!! Just don't want to cook the motor. I like it hooked to blower 2 better for the simple fact its quieter at crusing temp with the odd surge to bring the plenum to the set temp. (Has little wider band for cfm output)

I have the ICM currently on max cutoff for sleeve and max hard start to ensure adequate lubrication.

The system seems to be working as expected. I'm not to consurned with the voltage... more so with the speed of the shaft to get proper oil. When the plenum temps drop to around 100f it is SLOW! But I'm not used the it.


----------



## sloeffle

Case1030 said:


> Anyone with an ICM controler on there sleeve bearing furnace... Looking for some input. How slow does your fan go when it's about to kick off?


I have mine set in the middle range for a sleeve bearing motor on both settings on the ICM. I have no idea what speed the motor is going or the voltage of the motor at the settings I'm using. I don't have the nice Fluke meter like @JRHAWK9 has that reads RMS . I haven't messed much with it since I installed it. My furnace is set to speed 2 also.

Edit: I lied, I had it originally set in the middle and moved both to max. The motor was making some weird sounds when I had the cut out speed set in the middle. I forgot about that.....


----------



## Case1030

sloeffle said:


> I have mine set in the middle range for a sleeve bearing motor on both settings on the ICM. I have no idea what speed the motor is going or the voltage of the motor at the settings I'm using. I don't have the nice Fluke meter like @JRHAWK9 has that reads RMS . I haven't messed much with it since I installed it. My furnace is set to speed 2 also.
> 
> Edit: I lied, I had it originally set in the middle and moved both to max. The motor was making sounds some weird sounds when I had the cut out speed set in the middle. I forgot about that.....



Ok good to know. I'll leave my sleeve setting on max for cutout. I know each motor has different characteristics... So long as the motor isnt making any noises it should be good? lol.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Anyone with an ICM controler on there sleeve bearing furnace... Looking for some input. How slow does your fan go when it's about to kick off?
> 
> I tried my ICM hooked upto blower speed 1 and also tried blower speed 2. Got similar results works great!! Just don't want to cook the motor. I like it hooked to blower 2 better for the simple fact its quieter at crusing temp with the odd surge to bring the plenum to the set temp. (Has little wider band for cfm output)
> 
> I have the ICM currently on max cutoff for sleeve and max hard start to ensure adequate lubrication.
> 
> The system seems to be working as expected. I'm not to consurned with the voltage... more so with the speed of the shaft to get proper oil. When the plenum temps drop to around 100f it is SLOW! But I'm not used the it.


There is no lubrication to be concerned about on most sleeve bearing motors used on direct drive furnace blowers...the sleeve bearings are permanently lubricated..."oilite" bearings I think they are called.
If you see them mention lubrication in the ICM manual...you have to remember, these things are made for AC compressors...so they use the "hard start" for full voltage starting (since they are turning a compressor, that is a heavy load) and possibly for compressor lubrication too.
I have my hard start set to a minimum...a couple seconds...just enough to get the blower spooled up to full (ish) speed.

As far as the minimum speed...if it is barely moving air, and you are down the minimum setting for sleeve bearing motors, I see no sense in going any slower. Now if you have a ball bearing motor such as @JRHAWK9  has, then the sky is the limit with how slow you can go...and it sounds like he is getting great results with slowing his down a lot!
I also set the minimum speed somewhat by how much noise the motor made before it shuts off...some are noiser than others...and at different speeds...gotta experiment and see what works for ya. But in no case would I go below the factory minimum setting for a sleeve motor unless I had a ball bearing motor.

Just to be clear here...the main issue with controlling speed this way is heat buildup...but doing it on a centrifugal blower like this is an ideal situation to do it...way better than an AC compressor.
There is no high load at start up. (unlike an AC compressor)
The load lessens as the speed drops (unlike an AC compressor)
And the motor is in a cool environment (unlike an AC compressor)
Every blower I have tried this on remains no more than warm (not hot!) to the touch after long periods of low speed running...and I have not heard of one person losing a motor yet either.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> There is no lubrication to be concerned about on most sleeve bearing motors used on direct drive furnace blowers...the sleeve bearings are permanently lubricated..."oilite" bearings I think they are called.
> If you see them mention lubrication in the ICM manual...you have to remember, these things are made for AC compressors...so they use the "hard start" for full voltage starting (since they are turning a compressor, that is a heavy load) and possibly for compressor lubrication too.
> I have my hard start set to a minimum...a couple seconds...just enough to get the blower spooled up to full (ish) speed.
> 
> As far as the minimum speed...if it is barely moving air, and you are down the minimum setting for sleeve bearing motors, I see no sense in going any slower. Now if you have a ball bearing motor such as @JRHAWK9  has, then the sky is the limit with how slow you can go...and it sounds like he is getting great results with slowing his down a lot!
> I also set the minimum speed somewhat by how much noise the motor made before it shuts off...some are noiser than others...and at different speeds...gotta experiment and see what works for ya. But in no case would I go below the factory minimum setting for a sleeve motor unless I had a ball bearing motor.
> 
> Just to be clear here...the main issue with controlling speed this way is heat buildup...but doing it on a centrifugal blower like this is an ideal situation to do it...way better than an AC compressor.
> There is no high load at start up. (unlike an AC compressor)
> The load lessens as the speed drops (unlike an AC compressor)
> And the motor is in a cool environment (unlike an AC compressor)
> Every blower I have tried this on remains no more than warm (not hot!) to the touch after long periods of low speed running...and I have not heard of one person losing a motor yet either.



I can't see the blower being much more useful going any slower than the sleeve cutout. It literally just blows enough air to feel at cutout at that setting... now a ball bearing lowest cutout I can only imagine not feeling air leaving the ducts... how is that useful?


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> now a ball bearing lowest cutout I can only imagine not feeling air leaving the ducts... how is that useful?


You have to remember that the ball bearing motor has lower rolling resistance, so it will turn faster at a lower voltage.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I also set the minimum speed somewhat by how much noise the motor made before it shuts off...some are noiser than others...and at different speeds...gotta experiment and see what works for ya. But in no case would I go below the factory minimum setting for a sleeve motor unless I had a ball bearing motor.


Like I said, I had my cut out speed set to in the middle and my blower motor was making some noises I don' think a motor should make. Even on max it makes some noises, but it will generally turn off shortly there after. I've kind of a alleviated the situation by turning up the cut out temperature on the snap disc to a little over 100.



brenndatomu said:


> If you see them mention lubrication in the ICM manual...you have to remember, these things are made for AC compressors...so they use the "hard start" for full voltage starting (since they are turning a compressor, that is a heavy load) and possibly for compressor lubrication too.
> I have my hard start set to a minimum...a couple seconds...just enough to get the blower spooled up to full (ish) speed.



I'll probably turn my hard start setting back down to the middle. I'm with you @brenndatomu, no use of start something as hard as you can when you can start it nice and gentle .


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I'll probably turn my hard start setting back down to the middle. I'm with you @brenndatomu, no use of start something as hard as you can when you can start it nice and gentle .


Well, starting a motor on low voltage is not a great idea...but since there is almost no load (just getting the weight of the motor rotor and the blower wheel spinning) on a blower like these at low (no) speed, it will work...but I still like to give it a couple seconds to get up to speed, then the ICM lets the temp sensor take over and adjusts the speed accordingly.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> I have no idea what speed the motor is going or the voltage of the motor at the settings I'm using. I don't have the nice Fluke meter like @JRHAWK9 has that reads RMS .



  I actually just have a  El cheapo Craftsman from about 15 years ago.  It does read True RMS, which you do need.  Otherwise your voltage reading will be inaccurate.  You may have thought I had a Fluke because of the link I posted a couple times:  https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/best-practices/measurement-basics/electricity/what-is-true-rms




brenndatomu said:


> As far as the minimum speed...if it is barely moving air, and you are down the minimum setting for sleeve bearing motors, I see no sense in going any slower. Now if you have a ball bearing motor such as @JRHAWK9  has, then the sky is the limit with how slow you can go...and it sounds like he is getting great results with slowing his down a lot!



I do have mine slowed down a lot and for some reason it heats the house better.  It prefers lower volumes of higher temp supply air.  Can't tell you why, but it does.  The most voltage the motor sees, when the Kuuma is running full out, is ~70V RMS at max plenum temps.  My low limit shuts it off when it's seeing around 45V RMS.  So, it's pretty much running in the 40V - 75V RMS range at all times.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> I actually just have a cheapo El Craftsman from 15 years ago.  It does read True RMS, which you do need.  Otherwise your voltage reading will be inaccurate.  You may have thought I had a Fluke because of the link I posted a couple times:  https://www.fluke.com/en-us/learn/best-practices/measurement-basics/electricity/what-is-true-rms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do have mine slowed down a lot and for some reason it heats the house better.  It prefers lower volumes of higher temp supply air.  Can't tell you why, but it does.  The most voltage the motor sees, when the Kuuma is running full out, is ~70V RMS at max plenum temps.  My low limit shuts it off when it's seeing around 45V RMS.  So, it's pretty much running in the 40V - 75V RMS range at all times.



It could have alot to do where your ducts are located... maybe since your heat loss at your roof is significantly higher also with the tall ceiling it helps keep an even stream of heat lower to your floor level.


----------



## 3fordasho

sloeffle said:


> Like I said, I had my cut out speed set to in the middle and my blower motor was making some noises I don' think a motor should make. Even on max it makes some noises, but it will generally turn off shortly there after. I've kind of a alleviated the situation by turning up the cut out temperature on the snap disc to a little over 100.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll probably turn my hard start setting back down to the middle. I'm with you @brenndatomu, no use of start something as hard as you can when you can start it nice and gentle .



I don't rely on just the ICM to shut off the blower motor- even adjusted to the fastest cut off speed it will run the motor down to what sounds like barely spinning.  Instead I replaced the factory fan snap switch with an adjustable version that will cut power to the ICM.  Between adjusting the snap switch and the 5k pot inline with the thermistor, I can get things to shut off at an appropriate rpm.  

As far as the hard start, I set that to maximum because it's usually best to start loaded motors at full voltage,  although this one is lightly loaded at start up so it may not matter too much if you soft start it.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> It could have alot to do where your ducts are located... maybe since your heat loss at your roof is significantly higher also with the tall ceiling it helps keep an even stream of heat lower to your floor level.




They are pretty much all around the perimeter of the house.  

One of my theories is what you have mentioned, maybe being more about the velocity coming out and the lower velocity doesn't send it straight up to the roof.  Who knows.  just glad I stumbled across it by experimenting.


----------



## JRHAWK9

3fordasho said:


> I don't rely on just the ICM to shut off the blower motor- even adjusted to the fastest cut off speed it will run the motor down to what sounds like barely spinning.  Instead I replaced the factory fan snap switch with an adjustable version that will cut power to the ICM.  Between adjusting the snap switch and the 5k pot inline with the thermistor, I can get things to shut off at an appropriate rpm.



I agree. This is how I have mine set up and allows me to easily experiment with different blower speeds.


----------



## Case1030

I also have a kick off for the icm about 95f. The factory tundra board controls my on/off cutoff. I tested the fan and it will still go much slower than the setting, but the board kicks it off before. I'm pretty lucky though... at the low sleeve bearing setting my blower is quite, to the point I don't know it's on not even a noticable hum!

The broad is still wired to cycle through the speeds if the plenum reaches over 135f (after resistor mod) which is highly doubtful.

What I have noticed if you disconnect the thermo probe on the icm while it's running the unit will kill the fan. Or if the icm fails it will kill the fan aswell. The way I have my icm set up, the tundra board will still take over in the event of failure or overheat. It can cycle through all the variable speeds if needed.


----------



## sloeffle

3fordasho said:


> Instead I replaced the factory fan snap switch with an adjustable version that will cut power to the ICM.  Between adjusting the snap switch and the 5k pot inline with the thermistor, I can get things to shut off at an appropriate rpm.
> .


My Caddy is setup very similar to yours then minus the 5k pot. I'm not relying on the ICM to turn the fan off either. I'm still relying on the factory snap switch to do that. I've had a 5k pot sitting on my bench collecting dust for a couple years now. Maybe I should knock the dust off of it and finally install it.


----------



## Case1030

sloeffle said:


> My Caddy is setup very similar to yours then minus the 5k pot. I'm not relying on the ICM to turn the fan off either. I'm still relying on the factory snap switch to do that. I've had a 5k pot sitting on my bench collecting dust for a couple years now. Maybe I should knock the dust off of it and finally install it.



I'll have to double check... but I'm pretty sure I have the pot tuned for the icm to give full current at 115-120 f plennum. Maintaining very close to that set point.

What is your snap disk set at?


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> I'm not relying on the ICM to turn the fan off either. I'm still relying on the factory snap switch to do that.



Same here.  I'm using the factory fan & limit furnace control to control the on/off of the blower circuit (low limit) as well as for my high limit.  Works great.

It appears the motors which come with the Tundras are quiet when speed controlled.  I think @DoubleB had mentioned in the past how his was nice and quiet back when he had it speed controlled.  All the ones I've played with (5 total, including the stock one) all made some goofy resonate humming when getting down there in voltage.


----------



## sloeffle

Case1030 said:


> I'll have to double check... but I'm pretty sure I have the pot tuned for the icm to give full current at 115-120 f plennum. Maintaining very close to that set point.
> 
> What is your snap disk set at?


My snap disk is set to turn on at 150 and to turn off at a little over 100.


----------



## sloeffle

JRHAWK9 said:


> All the ones I've played with (5 total, including the stock one) all made some goofy resonate humming when getting down there in voltage.


My motor doesn't make a humming noise. It makes a noise almost like the power to it is being turned off and on really fast. It doesn't sound "healthy" by any stretch of the means. I'll try to get a video of it.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> My motor doesn't make a humming noise. It makes a noise almost like the power to it is being turned off and on really fast. It doesn't sound "healthy" by any stretch of the means. I'll try to get a video of it.



I'm thinking the cabinet it's sitting in is making it sound even worse.  

Here at work for years we had an AC unit outside which would run in winter, all winter, I guess to keep our server room downstairs cool.  I am pretty sure it had a head pressure control on it as the motor was always making a strange noise and the fan was always turning VERY slowly.  One could actually watch it go around.  Always wondered what the deal was with it.....until I speed controlled mine and remembered that setup.  Things have changed since then, but that AC ran for lots of years with that motor spinning very slow.  The noise I remember that motor making and what mine makes are pretty similar.


----------



## sloeffle

Well, all good things must come to an end. My ICM speed controller gave up the ghost today. Got home from work today and made a fire and heard a click from the snap disc but the fan didn't turn on. Immediately pulled the power plug and plugged it back in and the fan still didn't run. Unplugged the furnace again and unscrewed and screwed the wire nut on the on the hot side of the ICM and motor and plugged the furnace back in and still no go. I then heard the cut out switch kick in and new it was time to unwire the ICM and wire the connections back directly into the furnace. Grabbed my book and wired everything back together and the fan kicked right on.

The controller I bought was brand new. I bought it and installed the ICM 326 in January of 2017. For now, I think I'll just stick with keeping my summer switch ( wired to speed 1 ) on all of the time and let that help circulate the warm air off of the furnace some.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> Well, all good things must come to an end. My ICM speed controller gave up the ghost today. Got home from work today and made a fire and heard a click from the snap disc but the fan didn't turn on. Immediately pulled the power plug and plugged it back in and the fan still didn't run. Unplugged the furnace again and unscrewed and screwed the wire nut on the on the hot side of the ICM and motor and plugged the furnace back in and still no go. I then heard the cut out switch kick in and new it was time to unwire the ICM and wire the connections back directly into the furnace. Grabbed my book and wired everything back together and the fan kicked right on.
> 
> The controller I bought was brand new. I bought it and installed the ICM 326 in January of 2017. For now, I think I'll just stick with keeping my summer switch ( wired to speed 1 ) on all of the time and let that help circulate the warm air off of the furnace some.




well that sucks!  I just looked back.  I installed mine at the end of 2016.  I hope yours was a fluke.  I do have a spare one sitting on the shelf though if mine ever gives up.


----------



## DoubleB

sloeffle said:


> My ICM speed controller gave up the ghost today.



Yea that stinks indeed.  I agree I hope that's a fluke, I'm just paranoid enough of adding the ICM in series to the stock circuitry that's part of the reason I haven't been using it lately.  Plus, I realized I actually like faintly hearing the blower cycle on/off from my room in the early morning...it tells me whether I need to get out of bed right away to warm up the house, or whether I still have good coals going.  I lost that audible thermometer when I used the ICM.


----------



## sloeffle

DoubleB said:


> Yea that stinks indeed.  I agree I hope that's a fluke, I'm just paranoid enough of adding the ICM in series to the stock circuitry that's part of the reason I haven't been using it lately.  Plus, I realized I actually like faintly hearing the blower cycle on/off from my room in the early morning...it tells me whether I need to get out of bed right away to warm up the house, or whether I still have good coals going.  I lost that audible thermometer when I used the ICM.


Yep, I hope it is a fluke too. I'm actually bidding on another speed controller on eBay. I'm generally like @JRHAWK9 and have two of everything but for some reason I didn't have a backup speed controller. I listened to the furnace go off and on a couple times and thought it was really a step backwards in functionality. Of course my speed controller has to die right before the polar vortex is ready to hit.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Of course my speed controller has to die right before the polar vortex is ready to hit.


I would think you would be loading enough to keep the blower running during this extra cold weather though? 
You still lose the extra efficiency that seems to come with the blower speed matching the heat output...but I think the blower cycling at the end is the real killer...


----------



## 3fordasho

sloeffle said:


> Yep, I hope it is a fluke too. I'm actually bidding on another speed controller on eBay. I'm generally like @JRHAWK9 and have two of everything but for some reason I didn't have a backup speed controller. I listened to the furnace go off and on a couple times and thought it was really a step backwards in functionality. Of course my speed controller has to die right before the polar vortex is ready to hit.




Probably a fluke, mine have been rock solid but a back up is a good idea.  Course we're all buying these off EBay, with an unknown history, some of these could be factory rejects, returns or what have you, who knows?


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> My motor doesn't make a humming noise. It makes a noise almost like the power to it is being turned off and on really fast. It doesn't sound "healthy" by any stretch of the means. I'll try to get a video of it.


If you get a new one, it will be interesting to see if it makes the same sounds from the motor...every motor and each individual blower/furnace seem to sound different, I wonder if the individual ICM has anything to do with it? Hmmm...


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I would think you would be loading enough to keep the blower running during this extra cold weather though?


During this last cold snap I was actually able to raise the house temp 3 or 4 degrees in a few hours. Once the house got up to 72 or so I didn't fill the furnace again until the house got down to about 70 or so. In normal temps I generally only have to put about 6 medium size splits in the furnace to get the house temp up 3 or 4 degrees. 

Like a lot of newer built houses, if the wind isn't blowing bad, my house isn't hard to heat. When the wind is blowing bad, that is a different story.


----------



## sloeffle

3fordasho said:


> Probably a fluke, mine have been rock solid but a back up is a good idea.  Course we're all buying these off EBay, with an unknown history, some of these could be factory rejects, returns or what have you, who knows?





brenndatomu said:


> I wonder if the individual ICM has anything to do with it? Hmmm...


I bought the last one from flebay. I'm pretty sure it was NOS or return stock. It was the new design though. I was looking at it last night trying to figure out a build date but none of the stickers really have anything meaningful. If anybody knows how I can decipher the information on the stickers I'd like to know. I could take some pics of the stickers and maybe we can figure it out.


----------



## JRHAWK9

souffle said:


> Like a lot of newer built houses, if the wind isn't blowing bad, my house isn't hard to heat.



  shut your face, don't want to hear about you guys and your efficient homes and how easy they are to heat in frigid temps.    

Although, I will say, I was pleasantly surprised to wake up this morning to -16° temps outside and 72° in the house.  The Kuuma's going to be getting a workout for the next week to keep our place warm.....


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Looking for some photos of how folks connected the Tundra II air ducts. I don’t have a central air system setup, just 2 8” trunks supplying floor vents. Trying to figure out if I am going to have to replace the 8” duct trunk for the duct that will connect to the Tundra.

Basically has anyone gone from 2 8” ducts to several branches? If so, can you provide some photos of the setup?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Looking for some photos of how folks connected the Tundra II air ducts. I don’t have a central air system setup, just 2 8” trunks supplying floor vents. Trying to figure out if I am going to have to replace the 8” duct trunk for the duct that will connect to the Tundra.
> 
> Basically has anyone gone from 2 8” ducts to several branches? If so, can you provide some photos of the setup?



Tundra ll has 10 6inch plenum take offs. It no longer has the 2 8 inch that was previously on the tundra 1.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Yes... My setup currently has 2 8” runs. So I am guessing I would have to re-duct my system. Need to add in that cost with the stove.


----------



## brenndatomu

You are going to need to add _at least_ one 8" run somewhere...IIRC they call for at least (6) of the (10) available 6" duct connections to be used...that's ~170 sq inches of area in total...(2) 8" runs only gives you ~100 sq in...(3) of them gets you in the 150 sq in area...that would be my absolute minimum...(4) 8" runs would be better. 
I would buy a sheet metal circle cutter and cut 8" holes into the plenum as needed to make the simplest 8" connections.
https://www.menards.com/main/heatin...und-hole-cutter/thht-1448/p-1488180037069.htm
https://www.menards.com/main/heatin...3-c-14260.htm?tid=-4911635956121324284&ipos=7


----------



## sloeffle

Well, all good things must starts somewhere. Ran the furnace for a few days without the speed controller. I must say it is night and day with and without it. IMHO it makes the furnace heat a lot better. The polar vortex is coming in a few days and I didn't want to listen to the furnace turn off and on all night so I went to a local HVAC supply house and picked up a Totaline P251-0083h today. Called another place and they wanted way too much money for a ICM 326. Got it hooked up and man does she purr like a kitten. I have the Totaline set to the middle settings on the cut out speed and the motor doesn't make the weird sounds it was making with my previous 326. I did have to wire 24V into it, but that wasn't a big deal. 

I did figure something interesting out today too. It looks like Mitsubishi electric uses ICM 326 units to modulate the fan on their mini splits. I do find the temperature swing on their unit interesting too.

Thanks to @JRHAWK9 for posting a wiring diagram back in 2017 that actually made sense, and @brenndatomu for answering all of my questions.


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> I went to a local HVAC supply house and picked up a Totaline P251-0083h today.



This is the exact unit I have, well, have two of.  

Glad my grade school sketch helped someone.


----------



## sloeffle

JRHAWK9 said:


> Glad my grade school sketch helped someone.


Your grade school sketch makes more sense to a person that doesn't work on electric everyday than what is in the book. I know what hot and neutral and ground are. Load and line don't click in my brain since I'm not around it everyday. I'm sure if you were a HVAC tech or an electrician, load and line make sense.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Load and line don't click in my brain since I'm not around it everyday. I'm sure if you were a HVAC tech or an electrician, load and line make sense.


Line is the power source, load is what is being powered...but even with doing electrical work pretty regularly, I find ICM's drawings to be confusing.


----------



## Mojappa

I know there was a few consecutive posts of people showing off their finishing nails, can’t seem to find it now.  I’ve got an endless supply of metal hangars and was wondering if they would be too thick to use in place of the finishing nail. Ultimately if it’s too big I’ll just blow through the load faster and can work down from there,just looking for some insight before I fire this bastard up again this evening. Last burn (first for the stove) went ok but i think I have a bit too weak of a draft to let the flap fully close, ended up with some chunks just smoldering for hours and dumping that smell into the house. Hoping a nail/hangar piece will provide a more complete burn


----------



## Case1030

Mojappa said:


> I know there was a few consecutive posts of people showing off their finishing nails, can’t seem to find it now.  I’ve got an endless supply of metal hangars and was wondering if they would be too thick to use in place of the finishing nail. Ultimately if it’s too big I’ll just blow through the load faster and can work down from there,just looking for some insight before I fire this bastard up again this evening. Last burn (first for the stove) went ok but i think I have a bit too weak of a draft to let the flap fully close, ended up with some chunks just smoldering for hours and dumping that smell into the house. Hoping a nail/hangar piece will provide a more complete burn



Never had a nail stick or get jammed doing it this way.

I used a side grinder to do the fine tuning.

I made one for cold weather and another for warm.


----------



## TDD11

Nothing like waiting until the coldest day of the year _so far_ to install my Totaline P251-0083H controller!! Haha!

I started the install last night, but the thermistor I used was not the correct one. I used a Totaline P251-0086 thermistor, and with HOT to touch plenums, the blower was running VERY slowly. I looked it up online, and the P251-0086 has the following temp vs resistance:





The thermistor that is included with the Totaline controller has a considerably lower range.





So, the Totaline controller wants to see a resistance of ~6.6kΩ to run at 100%, and 11.8kΩ at 0%, and with the 0086 thermistor, with hot plenum temps I was still likely only around 9.5-10Ω and therefore only running the fan at 10-20%.

I put it back to factory wiring last night once I realized I needed to change my thermistor or add a resistor to the 0083H thermistor.

Today I used the factory included thermistor and a 2.94kΩ resistor (couldn't find a 5KΩ pot at work) in series. I considered other resistances, but the 2.94kΩ in series seemed to be the best starting point. I wired my blower on Speed 3, instead of Speed 1 which I had been on. I'm sure my static pressure is pretty high, but especially this time of year, loading the furnace up to the max, I might as well run a higher CFM... Time will tell. 

Here's what I calculate to be the blower speeds based on temp.. My adjustable snap disc should shut the blower off around 100°F (and 50% speed) if I recall correctly.





I will order and switch to a probe type thermistor, like @3fordasho used.



brenndatomu said:


> I just looked it up because I couldn't remember.
> The ICM 375 sensor is 50-80F.
> The ICM 376 sensor is 70-100F and I think this is the standard one that normally come with the controller. I misspoke before saying I had used the 95-120F one...which will work good too, but mine came with this 70-100F sensor and I made it work by adding the resistor in line...more resistance makes the operating range go up.
> The ICM 377 sensor is 95-120F
> The ICM 379 sensor is also 70-100F
> The Totaline brand stuff we have is the same, just re-branded for Carrier...different part #s. The sensor I linked before is a Totaline P251-0086 sensor, same as the ICM 377 above...


Dave, I'm not sure how the Totaline P251-0086 thermistor worked for you, is there a chance that that was a typo or a bad cross reference? Maybe the ICM controller is looking for a different resistance range. That's all I can think of, but I don't see any way it would work right with my Totaline controller.


----------



## sloeffle

TDD11 said:


> Dave, I'm not sure how the Totaline P251-0086 thermistor worked for you, is there a chance that that was a typo or a bad cross reference? Maybe the ICM controller is looking for a different resistance range. That's all I can think of, but I don't see any way it would work right with my Totaline controller.


I'm using the thermistor from my 326 with my new Totaline P251-0086 and it works good IMHO. From a visual reference they both look identical so that is why I didn't change out the one from the 326. It is possible though that they are set to measure different temps though.


----------



## 3fordasho

TDD11 said:


> Nothing like waiting until the coldest day of the year _so far_ to install my Totaline P251-0083H controller!! Haha!
> 
> I started the install last night, but the thermistor I used was not the correct one. I used a Totaline P251-0086 thermistor, and with HOT to touch plenums, the blower was running VERY slowly. I looked it up online, and the P251-0086 has the following temp vs resistance:
> View attachment 239679
> 
> 
> The thermistor that is included with the Totaline controller has a considerably lower range.
> View attachment 239682
> 
> 
> So, the Totaline controller wants to see a resistance of ~6.6kΩ to run at 100%, and 11.8kΩ at 0%, and with the 0086 thermistor, with hot plenum temps I was still likely only around 9.5-10Ω and therefore only running the fan at 10-20%.
> 
> I put it back to factory wiring last night once I realized I needed to change my thermistor or add a resistor to the 0083H thermistor.
> 
> Today I used the factory included thermistor and a 2.94kΩ resistor (couldn't find a 5KΩ pot at work) in series. I considered other resistances, but the 2.94kΩ in series seemed to be the best starting point. I wired my blower on Speed 3, instead of Speed 1 which I had been on. I'm sure my static pressure is pretty high, but especially this time of year, loading the furnace up to the max, I might as well run a higher CFM... Time will tell.
> 
> Here's what I calculate to be the blower speeds based on temp.. My adjustable snap disc should shut the blower off around 100°F (and 50% speed) if I recall correctly.
> View attachment 239683
> 
> 
> I will order and switch to a probe type thermistor, like @3fordasho used.
> 
> 
> Dave, I'm not sure how the Totaline P251-0086 thermistor worked for you, is there a chance that that was a typo or a bad cross reference? Maybe the ICM controller is looking for a different resistance range. That's all I can think of, but I don't see any way it would work right with my Totaline controller.



I'm happy with the probe type I detailed in a earlier post, or maybe the sticky thread. It's working well on two different furnace installs.  Don't just hang the probe in the air flow above the heat exchanger - I put mine in a aluminum block screwed to the sheet metal right above the front center outlet that I didn't use to connect a duct run.  The block tempers the temp changes and results in less swings in fan speed.  Oh and get the 5k pot, it allows you to set the speed right where you want it with the twist of a knob.  As far as the motor tap, I use a higher speed tap on the house unit with lots of duct work and long runs, and a lower speed in the shop with almost no duct work and much lower return air temps because shop temps are  lower.


----------



## trx250r87

Anyone in Michigan looking for a T2?


Eric


----------



## TDD11

sloeffle said:


> I'm using the thermistor from my 326 with my new Totaline P251-0086 and it works good IMHO. From a visual reference they both look identical so that is why I didn't change out the one from the 326. It is possible though that they are set to measure different temps though.


Hmm, I'm not sure. I wonder if something didn't cross reference right, or it was a typo. The P251-0085 from Totaline looks to be much closer in resistance to the original one. 



3fordasho said:


> I'm happy with the probe type I detailed in a earlier post, or maybe the sticky thread. It's working well on two different furnace installs.  Don't just hang the probe in the air flow above the heat exchanger - I put mine in a aluminum block screwed to the sheet metal right above the front center outlet that I didn't use to connect a duct run.  The block tempers the temp changes and results in less swings in fan speed.  Oh and get the 5k pot, it allows you to set the speed right where you want it with the twist of a knob.  As far as the motor tap, I use a higher speed tap on the house unit with lots of duct work and long runs, and a lower speed in the shop with almost no duct work and much lower return air temps because shop temps are  lower.


Thanks, I have searched your posts to see that. I may try to check the temp/res curve on the probe like yours, and the aluminum block is a great idea to help steady the temp swings - like when the damper opens and closes frequently.. I definitely will still get a 5k pot, but wanted to get the blower mod running today.


----------



## TDD11

trx250r87 said:


> Anyone in Michigan looking for a T2?
> 
> 
> Eric



Possibly my dad. Details? I can't see the facebook picture.


----------



## trx250r87

I don't know any more that what the post says. Looks a little dirty!

Eric


----------



## trx250r87

$1000 isn't horrible but it looks like it was abused.


----------



## TDD11

I found the ad and saw more pictures as well. Looks neglected. I'd buy it but not for anywhere near his asking price,


----------



## brenndatomu

trx250r87 said:


> Anyone in Michigan looking for a T2?
> 
> 
> Eric



That's actually a T1 I do believe. A T2 would have a plenum.


TDD11 said:


> is there a chance that that was a typo


Yeah, could've been...been a while now, I'd have to go back and look things up.
I ended up using the standard temp sensor that came with the controller. Just added a 1.2k resistor...worked perfect. Also, the  aluminum block for the sensor is a real good idea...I kinda did the same thing by taping the sensor to the outside of the ductpipe right above the furnace...used that high temp aluminum tape. Then taped a bunch of high temp insulation over top of that area too. Had much the same effect as mounting to a block would.
On my current setup I also used a standard sensor, but with a 5k pot, and that is definitely the way to go, its so easy to change the target operating range if you want.


----------



## laynes69

trx250r87 said:


> $1000 isn't horrible but it looks like it was abused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 239691



I saw the post for this furnace.....looking at the other pictures, it was probably burned with unseasoned wood and an oversized chimney. Don't know what generation the furnace is, however I doubt it's been burned hot enough to cause any damage. No wonder they switched and moved to pellets...lol.


----------



## Case1030

laynes69 said:


> I saw the post for this furnace.....looking at the other pictures, it was probably burned with unseasoned wood and an oversized chimney. Don't know what generation the furnace is, however I doubt it's been burned hot enough to cause any damage. No wonder they switched and moved to pellets...lol.
> View attachment 240096



No doubt, does that look rough lol. Not only did they not burn hot enough probably didn't even use seasoned wood... didn't even have the decency to put a coffee tin under that mess. 

Btw looks like a first gen.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Btw looks like a first gen.


Yeah, T1, but not the very first version, as it has the snap switch up on the top instead of on the back like mine did...or I guess it could have been retrofit updated, SBI sent the kits out to those who asked for them. Either way, yeah, that one was run hard and put away wet...or maybe not even put away...almost looks like it spent a few nights outside!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Regarding the Tundra II heat output cycle... 

With the Fire Chief FC1500 the unit throws out a ton of heat for the first 3-4 hours, then drop off to what the thermostat is set to.

Is this the same for the Tundra? Does the unit take off for X amount of hours, only to drop off at some point. Or is the heat output always right around the thermostat set point?


----------



## brenndatomu

Your gonna have a peak on any solid fuel fired heater...less so with cat stoves maybe, but still a peak. (and maybe not so much with pellet burners)
The hottest part of the burn is usually about 1-2 hours in...building up to that point, and slowly tapering down after. The main difference is you will still have some heat being put out for 8-10-12 hours, depending on what, and how much you load..._especially so_ if you have the temp and speed control mods installed. You will not have a cold firebox in 5-6 hours...unless you only load just a few small sticks or something like that.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Also keep in mind when you speed control your blower it will keep plenum temps as high as it can.

For instance, just tonight, with it set on minimum burn, I was seeing max plenum temps (119° - 120°) from the 2 to 3 hour mark into a 4.5 hour burn, which is when the damper started opening off and on.  They were at least 117° throughout the whole burn.  I reloaded on a coffee can amount of coals after 4.5 hours with plenum temps still at 116.X°.   Speed controlling the blower is what really helps keep consistent plenum temps.  Well, consistent for a wood furnace anyway.  I'm sure the controlled burn of the Kuuma helps as well.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> I reloaded on a coffee can amount of coals after 4.5 hours


That must have only been what, a 15-20 # load of wood?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> That must have only been what, a 15-20 # load of wood?



It's been warmer here (25°-35°) the past 24-36 hours, so I started a fire in a luke warm firebox at about 5pm, so it was 30lbs.  Fires from scratch are just not as efficient as loading on a bed of coals.  May have been a bit more than a coffee can, it's always hard for me to judge coals going off of memory after the fact.  Maybe a gallon...I dunno.     It's dropping tonight, low of -5° with -22° wind chills.  It's 6° right now.  Hence why I loaded with firebox temps as high as they were.


----------



## Case1030

JRHAWK9 said:


> It's been warmer here (25°-35°) the past 24-36 hours, so I started a fire in a luke warm firebox at about 5pm, so it was 30lbs.  Fires from scratch are just not as efficient as loading on a bed of coals.  May have been a bit more than a coffee can, it's always hard for me to judge coals going off of memory after the fact.  Maybe a gallon...I dunno.     It's dropping tonight, low of -5° with -22° wind chills.  It's 6° right now.  Hence why I loaded with firebox temps as high as they were.



Hopefully we start getting some nice weather soon. Still haven't gotten any mild temperature since the polar vortex. 

Last night -24f with -38f wind chills. Have been doing about 3 loads per day in this weather with a few days able to do 12/12.

Tundra has been doing everything I need and so far very pleased with after nearly a whole winter with the furnace.

I will admit after checking out a few guys indoor boiler units might be leaning in that direction after a couple years. Nothing wrong with wood furnaces I'd just like to heat my detatchedgarage at the same time without two solid burning appliances. Alot of possiblitys and things to tinker with.


----------



## 3fordasho

Case1030 said:


> Tundra has been doing everything I need and so far very pleased with after nearly a whole winter with the furnace.
> 
> I will admit after checking out a few guys indoor boiler units might be leaning in that direction after a couple years. Nothing wrong with wood furnaces I'd just like to heat my detatchedgarage at the same time without two solid burning appliances. Alot of possiblitys and things to tinker with.



Same here.  Looking at boiler and 1000 gallons of storage, one fire to tend to heat main house and shop vs firing up to three independent stoves/furnaces.
Trick is to put it together with out spending $10k or more.

The Tundra has been a great interim solution, no regrets and owes me nothing.


----------



## Highbeam

Case1030 said:


> I will admit after checking out a few guys indoor boiler units might be leaning in that direction after a couple years. Nothing wrong with wood furnaces I'd just like to heat my detatchedgarage at the same time without two solid burning appliances. Alot of possiblitys and things to tinker with.



Huge money but would be lots of fun.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Case1030 said:


> Hopefully we start getting some nice weather soon. Still haven't gotten any mild temperature since the polar vortex.
> 
> Last night -24f with -38f wind chills.



You are in another world, in terms of cold, living up there!


----------



## brenndatomu

So was it here, or somewhere else that I remember reading about a Tundra T1 owner that had the official crack repair procedure from SBI and either posted it, or was willing to as needed? I can't seem to find it anywhere...


----------



## Geoff Sharp

Hi everyone, im hoping i could get some advice. Im building a new home in Australia and the size is 315 square metres (3400 square feet if think) ( my house plans are attached). Here in Australia we are very limited in regard to the drolet tundra availability however, ive found a company selling one here.. https://myfireplaceaustralia.com.au/au_en/tundra-wood-furnace-df02005?xlan=heaters the shop is saying this unit a euro DF02005 model and they also said it is a tundra 2 model, but to me it looks more like the original earlier model, but im not 100% sure. I was hoping there maybe someone with more experience who can ...

1. Explain what model DF02005 model this is and is it the one that cracks?

2. Also i need a minimum or 8 ducts to heat our house (but really 9 or 10 ducts) The guy at the shop initially said it would do heat six ducts (rooms), but when i told him i need more he back peddled and said it could do 8 plus. I read that the tundra 2 model can do 10 ducts, but im not sure about this model and ive read their user manual here https://d3rwe0jvtsa9tq.cloudfront.n...t/products_documents/EN-45730A_23-11-2017.pdf but it doesn't state how many ducts the unit can accommodate. 

Im really wanting a tundra but im worried this unit wont accommodate the size of house and amount of ducts we need and if its the original tundra that had issues or the newer tundra 2. You feedback would be so much appreciated. Kind regards Geoff


----------



## maple1

Climate & heat loss would play as big a part as square footage. Have you done any heat loss calcs?

I haven't been there, but always kind of thought Aus was kind of mild?


----------



## brenndatomu

Geoff Sharp said:


> Hi everyone, im hoping i could get some advice. Im building a new home in Australia and the size is 315 square metres (3400 square feet if think) ( my house plans are attached). Here in Australia we are very limited in regard to the drolet tundra availability however, ive found a company selling one here.. https://myfireplaceaustralia.com.au/au_en/tundra-wood-furnace-df02005?xlan=heaters the shop is saying this unit a euro DF02005 model and they also said it is a tundra 2 model, but to me it looks more like the original earlier model, but im not 100% sure. I was hoping there maybe someone with more experience who can ...
> 
> 1. Explain what model DF02005 model this is and is it the one that cracks?
> 
> 2. Also i need a minimum or 8 ducts to heat our house (but really 9 or 10 ducts) The guy at the shop initially said it would do heat six ducts (rooms), but when i told him i need more he back peddled and said it could do 8 plus. I read that the tundra 2 model can do 10 ducts, but im not sure about this model and ive read their user manual here https://d3rwe0jvtsa9tq.cloudfront.n...t/products_documents/EN-45730A_23-11-2017.pdf but it doesn't state how many ducts the unit can accommodate.
> 
> Im really wanting a tundra but im worried this unit wont accommodate the size of house and amount of ducts we need and if its the original tundra that had issues or the newer tundra 2. You feedback would be so much appreciated. Kind regards Geoff


Your model numbers appear to be different than ours...this looks like a T1 to me...


----------



## DoubleB

I think you'd be able to heat with this model, assuming you insulate the house well, which I assume occurs in Australia.  It looks like Melbourne is about as far south as you can get, the 37th southern parallel, which is about equivalent to the north border of Tennessee for us.  Which can use some heat in the winter but isn't a deep freeze

@3fordasho is well north of our 45th parallel (if I recall correctly), and heats 3400 sq ft with his Tundra on all but the very coldest days.


----------



## Getwidit

Does anyone have experience with the heat pack. It's the only size I can get that will fit through my basement door. My house is 2 stories with a 6' 6" basement. First floor is open design 500 sq ft 2nd floor as well.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Does anyone have experience with the heat pack. It's the only size I can get that will fit through my basement door. My house is 2 stories with a 6' 6" basement. First floor is open design 500 sq ft 2nd floor as well.


@Mojappa  has one...sounds like the Heatpack should do the job for ya, at least unless you have no insulation.
Do you have dry wood for it? Not "seasoned" like most all the firewood sellers have, actually dry.


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> @Mojappa  has one...sounds like the Heatpack should do the job for ya, at least unless you have no insulation.
> Do you have dry wood for it? Not "seasoned" like most all the firewood sellers have, actually dry.



I have oak thsts been split for 3 years in a pile. I've been splitting smaller and stacking loose to hopefully get the remaining moisture out before it gets cold. By the sounds of it I'm hoping 4 or 5 cords max will do it for this small house. I just renovated. So insulation is pretty good. Any pieces that I can see real moisture in I've been tossing to the side for my fathers boiler..

 ill be back soon with a ton more questions about set up I'm sure. I've been reading this entire thread just about for tips. And a lot of it is hard to grasp. I'm just scared about the investment and all the cracks I've been reading about.


----------



## brenndatomu

Good for you on the wood supply!
It sounds like this machine should be fine for your house then...and the cracking issue was on first gen Tundra/Heatmax only as far as I have ever heard.


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Good for you on the wood supply!
> It sounds like this machine should be fine for your house then...and the cracking issue was on first gen Tundra/Heatmax only





brenndatomu said:


> Good for you on the wood supply!
> It sounds like this machine should be fine for your house then...and the cracking issue was on first gen Tundra/Heatmax only as far as I have ever heard.


 logged our land 6 years ago and they pulled close to 40 cord of tops. My old man uses a wood master at his house. 2 winters ago we cut and split all of it. It's been rained on and snowed on but I think splitting it and stacking it should have it pretty damn close to what's called for.


----------



## brenndatomu

Just get a cover over top of the wood you want to use this year before the rainy/snowy season starts...the sides can be open for air flow,  but keeping moisture from going down through from the top helps a lot


----------



## Getwidit

I'm going to order off northern tool tonight they are 200 bucks cheaper than anywhere else with free delivery. Nearest dealer is 3 hrs.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> I'm going to order off northern tool tonight they are 200 bucks cheaper than anywhere else with free delivery. Nearest dealer is 3 hrs.


Really? I found it cheaper elsewhere, with free shipping. 
https://myfireplaceproducts.com/us_en/drolet-heatpack-wood-furnace
And you must have a coupon code for NT, shipping does not show free for me.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Thanks for the link... I now have to review what is different between that model and the Tundra.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I now have to review what is different between that model and the Tundra.


Just smaller...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

What’s up man... long summer!

Need to to get my stuff together and place the order.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah pretty hard to sell a wood burner outside of heating season...interested shoppers should pick up in the next month or two...


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Really? I found it cheaper elsewhere, with free shipping.
> https://myfireplaceproducts.com/us_en/drolet-heatpack-wood-furnace
> And you must have a coupon code for NT, shipping does not show free for me.


 You're right I got the red carpet shipping too. They are going to get it down my stairs for me. For the same price everyone else is before shipping. Stellar deal.


----------



## Jpops

New to this site, looking at purchasing a new high efficiency wood furnace. Not new to burning wood but definitely behind the curve with the newer high efficiency furnaces. I have been waiting for a Kuuma vapor fire 200 for almost a year and talked to them last week and it sounds like it will be another six months before they start building them again due to new EPA testing. My old stove it shot. Wondering if there are any other options out there, I have read a ton of negative reviews about the fire chiefs shelters and tundras. I want a quality efficient furnace, willing to shell out the dollars but can’t wait another six months as the temps are already in the 40’s overnight. Any advice would be greatly appreciated


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> They are going to get it down my stairs for me


The shipping company will do this?! I have never heard of such a thing, except for when buying from a dealer. Sounds like you did well.


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> The shipping company will do this?! I have never heard of such a thing, except for when buying from a dealer. Sounds like you did well.


 Thanks for the info man. I would have never known.


----------



## brenndatomu

Jpops said:


> I have been waiting for a Kuuma vapor fire 200 for almost a year and talked to them last week and it sounds like it will be another six months before they start building them again due to new EPA testing. My old stove it shot. Wondering if there are any other options out there, I have read a ton of negative reviews about the fire chiefs shelters and tundras


What are you using now? It is unusable right now? Do you have backup heat (gas, oil, etc) that you could use until the 200's are available again? It would be a shame to miss out on a Kuuma but for a few more months of waiting. Have you looked for a used one? I have seen more VF200's for sale used than 100's...still not a ton, but some. You could also have Dale at Lamppa give you a call if he hears of one for sale too...that's how I got my VF100. And he basically sold the VF200 that I had previously for me too.

As far as the Tundras, you heard negative reviews on the T1, probably not on the T2 though...I haven't really heard of any.
The other option would be a PSG Caddy...same parent company that builds the Tundra, but a Caddy needs to be bought from a dealer. Will be priced about halfway between a Tundra II, and a VF200. Very similar to the T2, just "better"
They also make the Mini Caddy, and Max Caddy, the Mini is small, Caddy medium, and the Max large. The box store versions of these are the Drolet Heatpack, the Tundra II, and the Heatpro. (S, M, L)
Me personally, the Drolet's are the only wood furnace line that are available at a box store that I'd even consider right now. Hopefully some other company's get their crap together and come up with some decent "budget" wood furnace options...if not Kuuma will have a monopoly on hot air wood furnaces by next spring...I mean good for them, but I know some (many) people will not be able to afford one...which is too bad.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Thanks for the info man. I would have never known.


Just so I am clear, you ordered from Northern then? Who is the shipper? Is the shipping some special deal? I'd like to know more about this "deliver to the basement" deal!


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Just so I am clear, you ordered from Northern then? Who is the shipper? Is the shipping some special deal? I'd like to know more about this "deliver to the basement" deal!


No no, I ordered from my fireplace products. Idk they offer free shipping or "red carpet" which is delivered and brought into where you want it, for 250$.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> No no, I ordered from my fireplace products. Idk they offer free shipping or "red carpet" which is delivered and brought into where you want it, for 250$.


Oh so its free shipping, but getting it into the basement is $250? Probably a good deal for many people, especially if you have challenging stairs! (wonder how long they are willing to fool around tryin to get one down a tight set of stairs?!  )


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Oh so its free shipping, but getting it into the basement is $250? Probably a good deal for many people, especially if you have challenging stairs! (wonder how long they are willing to fool around tryin to get one down a tight set of stairs?!  )


Haha I'm curious about this too because mine aren't going to be easy which is why I opted for it.. not really sure how they can offer this. They ship everywhere in the country.  How can they afford to send 3 guys anywhere in the country to move a 450# stove into a basement theyve never visited? they sent a pdf I need to fill out which askes questions about the smallest door and smallest negotiable turn they need to make.


----------



## Jpops

brenndatomu said:


> What are you using now? It is unusable right now? Do you have backup heat (gas, oil, etc) that you could use until the 200's are available again? It would be a shame to miss out on a Kuuma but for a few more months of waiting. Have you looked for a used one? I have seen more VF200's for sale used than 100's...still not a ton, but some. You could also have Dale at Lamppa give you a call if he hears of one for sale too...that's how I got my VF100. And he basically sold the VF200 that I had previously for me too.
> 
> As far as the Tundras, you heard negative reviews on the T1, probably not on the T2 though...I haven't really heard of any.
> The other option would be a PSG Caddy...same parent company that builds the Tundra, but a Caddy needs to be bought from a dealer. Will be priced about halfway between a Tundra II, and a VF200. Very similar to the T2, just "better"
> They also make the Mini Caddy, and Max Caddy, the Mini is small, Caddy medium, and the Max large. The box store versions of these are the Drolet Heatpack, the Tundra II, and the Heatpro. (S, M, L)
> Me personally, the Drolet's are the only wood furnace line that are available at a box store that I'd even consider right now. Hopefully some other company's get their crap together and come up with some decent "budget" wood furnace options...if not Kuuma will have a monopoly on hot air wood furnaces by next spring...I mean good for them, but I know some (many) people will not be able to afford one...which is too bad.



Thanks for the info, the stove which I used last winter is a old home made woodboiler that looks like it was converted to just a stove, radiant heat only. I just have it a once over last week and found several cracks in the fire box, and it was incredibly inefficient, only a manual dampener that I would have to adjust ever hour  or it burned through a load of wood in an hour or so. I do have electric base boards through the main floor but doubt that’s enough to heat my 1800 sft, (that’s including unfinished basement main floor and half second story) plus I’m don’t really want to pay to run the base boards haha. I’ve been in contact with Lamppa about used VF 200’s and haven’t heard anything back. I should add that I had my home spray foamed when I remodeled the entire house so it is well insulated. I’ve also looked at dimensions of units and think the tundra II and VF200 might be the only unit that will fit through my narrow basement steps. Any more thoughts would be great!


----------



## brenndatomu

Jpops said:


> Thanks for the info, the stove which I used last winter is a old home made woodboiler that looks like it was converted to just a stove, radiant heat only. I just have it a once over last week and found several cracks in the fire box, and it was incredibly inefficient, only a manual dampener that I would have to adjust ever hour  or it burned through a load of wood in an hour or so. I do have electric base boards through the main floor but doubt that’s enough to heat my 1800 sft, (that’s including unfinished basement main floor and half second story) plus I’m don’t really want to pay to run the base boards haha. I’ve been in contact with Lamppa about used VF 200’s and haven’t heard anything back. I should add that I had my home spray foamed when I remodeled the entire house so it is well insulated. I’ve also looked at dimensions of units and think the tundra II and VF200 might be the only unit that will fit through my narrow basement steps. Any more thoughts would be great!


A Mini Caddy work? Close to you?
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/for/d/big-lake-wood-add-on-furnace/6921785565.html


----------



## Jpops

brenndatomu said:


> A Mini Caddy work? Close to you?
> https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/for/d/big-lake-wood-add-on-furnace/6921785565.html


 
I think even the mini might be to wide to get down the basement steps, my stairs measure 28 1/4” I think the mini caddy measures 29 7/8, unless that’s the assembled width. And I’m not sure if that unit would provide enough heat for 1800 square feet. It’s not abnormal to have air temps in the -40s where I live


----------



## Getwidit

Anyone ever split two stainless flex flu liners together? I found a 25 footer for half price and I need a little more than that.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Anyone ever split two stainless flex flu liners together? I found a 25 footer for half price and I need a little more than that.


Yeah I think they make a coupling to do that...


----------



## brenndatomu

Jpops said:


> I think even the mini might be to wide to get down the basement steps, my stairs measure 28 1/4” I think the mini caddy measures 29 7/8, unless that’s the assembled width. And I’m not sure if that unit would provide enough heat for 1800 square feet. It’s not abnormal to have air temps in the -40s where I live


The Mini is smaller than the Tundra I'm sure...and yeah, I dunno if it would keep up with your heat load or not.
Edit, the Mini is 23.75" wide when the controller is taken off...the 29 7/8 you saw is fully assembled.
https://sbiweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/1603/pf01302_mini-caddy.pdf
Tundra is 26.125", Caddy is 25.625" with controller removed.

How about something like a used Wonderwood? (or Wondercoal...about the same unit) They are not too big, fairly light, and can be bought pretty cheap used...just run that until the VF200 is available? These things will make some heat for sure...not terribly efficient, but may be what the doctor ordered for a stopgap stove...


The newer "EPA" Wonderwood version is available from TSC brand new for something like $750, or less on sale. My friend has one, he seems to like it well enough.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...ed-wood-burning-circulator-stove?cm_vc=-10005


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah I think they make a coupling to do that...


Do you think a tundra would be over kill for 1000 sq ft of living space and 500 sq ft of basement.? I was also worried it would over heat the house in most instance .


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Do you think a tundra would be over kill for 1000 sq ft of living space and 500 sq ft of basement.? I was also worried it would over heat the house in most instance .


You could probably make it work by short loading it. It would be plenty for sure


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> You could probably make it work by short loading it. It would be plenty for sure



Short loading it would reduce overall burn time I assume? Which do u think would be better suited the heatpack or the tundra


----------



## brenndatomu

Yes, shorter burn time, less btu output.
Heatpack should be fine, but it depends totally on your heat load...local weather and your houses insulation/ air sealing level... which you'll have to forgive me, if you mentioned these details before I don't recall right now.
And what is your backup heat? Do you plan on heating 100% with wood? People tend to get too hung up on that in my opinion...if the gas or oil kicks on a few times during a cold snap, so what? You still knocked your heat bill down by 90% plus...


----------



## brenndatomu

Might be a good idea to start a new thread with all the peticulars and how you got to where you are now. I'm sure there will be install questions, so that would help people keep track of things to be able to help better. Also make it easier for people to find the information when searching in the future, since this thread is such a monster now, easy to "lose" things...


----------



## brenndatomu

For most of the USA the winters are not real severe and spend much more time above 20*F than below 20. IMO you are better off sizing to the majority of the heating season...as long as you have backup heat anyways. Little different off grid, or single source heat...


----------



## Getwidit

I see what you're saying.. that brings up another point.. right now my oil furnace is running up a 9x13 clay flu.. I was considering running a 6 inch stainless liner for the wood stove and a 5 inch stainless for the furnace.. it's a straight shot for the oil furnace only 4 feet to the chimney.. the manual says not todo this.. I figured if they had indepenant flu what could it harm.. especially since its going to be rare they run simultaneously... any thoughts? I'm going to make a new thread soon. This is my last question here.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> I figured if they had indepenant flu what could it harm..


Yeah it should be fine if you run 2 liners. Hopefully you can get insulation on the 6"...even 1/4" would be better than nothing...I'd strive for the standard 1/2" insulation though!
I'll keep an eye out for your new thread


----------



## brenndatomu

Jpops said:


> Thanks for the info, the stove which I used last winter is a old home made woodboiler that looks like it was converted to just a stove, radiant heat only. I just have it a once over last week and found several cracks in the fire box, and it was incredibly inefficient, only a manual dampener that I would have to adjust ever hour  or it burned through a load of wood in an hour or so. I do have electric base boards through the main floor but doubt that’s enough to heat my 1800 sft, (that’s including unfinished basement main floor and half second story) plus I’m don’t really want to pay to run the base boards haha. I’ve been in contact with Lamppa about used VF 200’s and haven’t heard anything back. I should add that I had my home spray foamed when I remodeled the entire house so it is well insulated. I’ve also looked at dimensions of units and think the tundra II and VF200 might be the only unit that will fit through my narrow basement steps. Any more thoughts would be great!


@Jpops , send me a private message, or I can send you one, just let me know.
I have info on an old Kuuma 1 for sale...might be a good interim solution for this winter...


----------



## Teglovinvtec

Guys thinking about adding an adjustable snap disc my furnace is serial number 688 just not getting the duct temps I want. I’d rather fan run hot for a shorter time then longer with cool air. I tried to search this thread but at 116 pages it’s not easy. If anyone knows the location of the disc on mine think it’s gen 1 and a link or details that would be greatly appreciated. Fan setting is at 1 or lowest


----------



## brenndatomu

Teglovinvtec said:


> Guys thinking about adding an adjustable snap disc my furnace is serial number 688 just not getting the duct temps I want. I’d rather fan run hot for a shorter time then longer with cool air. I tried to search this thread but at 116 pages it’s not easy. If anyone knows the location of the disc on mine think it’s gen 1 and a link or details that would be greatly appreciated. Fan setting is at 1 or lowest


https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/everything-drolet-tundra-heatmax.140788/post-1895709








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					www.zoro.com
				




Here is a couple that some have used...anything similar would work (other brands, etc)
As far as where it is...on early models it will be on the back...if you have the metal raceway that runs from the back, across the top and in between the 2 duct connectors, then you will find it under that raceway/cover in the middle of the top. The switch with the white wires (IIRC) is the one you want...confirm with the wiring diagram in your owners manual that is the fan control switch though. The switch with the red wires is the high temp limit switch, again, IIRC.
If you can wade through this thread a few pages at a time, it is worth it IMO, lots of valuable info...should answer about any question you'd have on a T1...
You can click to expand my sig line for this link...it will take you to an index of sorts for this thread...at least the first half of it…guess it needs an update for the last 40+ pages... http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/tundra-heatmax-information-guide.157330/
I think you'll find that the longer the blower runs the more heat is stripped from the flue and put into the house...even if the duct temps are low...now if it is heating the house fine as is and you just want it to shut off sooner...carry on.


----------



## Getwidit

It might have been touched on but what do people think about a manual damper in your 6 inch exhaust? I have the heat pack and when I want to have a fire in my fire place it makes my heat pack down draft when I'm not using the heat pack. Thinking i could just install a damper and close it when the heat back is not in use to cut down on the smell. I read in the manual not todo this however, but I could have sworn I read of people doing it before in this thread.


----------



## brenndatomu

To use it as you suggest should be okay...just make sure you open it before firing the HP.
Might not totally solve the issue though...manual damper doesn't close of the pipe completely... more like 80%.
Are the two flues tied together?


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> To use it as you suggest should be okay...just make sure you open it before firing the HP.
> Might not totally solve the issue though...manual damper doesn't close of the pipe completely... more like 80%.
> Are the two flues tied together?


 
No they aren't the fire place is a modern prefab. It draws a ton of air when it drafts that it just pulls from the hp too. I can solve it somewhat also by cracking the basement window as well.


----------



## Getwidit

Getwidit said:


> No they aren't the fire place is a modern prefab. It draws a ton of air when it drafts that it just pulls from the hp too. I can solve it somewhat also by cracking the basement window as well.


----------



## brenndatomu

Ah I see, yeah makeup air for a fireplace can be a rediculous volume...the main reason they are so inefficient. Probably still need to crack that window when you use it ..the air has to come from somewhere. Does the FP have doors? Running with the doors closed (if you can) would help limit air flow some


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Ah I see, yeah makeup air for a fireplace can be a rediculous volume...the main reason they are so inefficient. Probably still need to crack that window when you use it ..the air has to come from somewhere. Does the FP have doors? Running with the doors closed (if you can) would help limit air flow some



I dont have doors at the moment but I did plan on getting them. It actually kills the draft on the HP when they are both going at the same time as well. I was planning on some sort of a fresh air for it (HP) for when we run both. Plus leave that window open does help for that instance too.


----------



## Getwidit

Quick question I'm checking the static pressure in my heat pack plenum.. I,m getting  around .17. To increase the pressure what do I do? Close dampers or open? Or should I add one more feed from the plenum to the main duct work? Or change the fan settings which I really dont know what they are set to, I'm thinking high.. not sure what factory are.


----------



## brenndatomu

Sounds like you are close enough IMO (call for .20"?) ...I don't worry about SP too much...basically if you are getting good temp rise between the return and the supply temps...good enough. 
40-50* temp rise is common with my VF100...was about the same with the Tundra. Gas or oil furnaces often run more like 70* temp rise.
To answer your question though...closing dampers or registers on the supply side will raise SP


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Sounds like you are close enough IMO (call for .20"?) ...I don't worry about SP too much...basically if you are getting good temp rise between the return and the supply temps...good enough.
> 40-50* temp rise is common with my VF100...was about the same with the Tundra. Gas or oil furnaces often run more like 70* temp rise.
> To answer your question though...closing dampers or registers on the supply side will raise SP


Which will in turn increase temps?


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Gas or oil furnaces often run more like 70* temp rise.



That's WAY high from what ours is.  Our 75KBTU LP furnace has a temp rise of 48° using the LOW speed tap and 42° using the MEDIUM-LOW speed tap.  I'm currently using the  LOW speed tap as it still falls within spec.  These were measured after 15 minutes of the furnace running.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yes...but no point in getting the temp rise too high...start to lose efficiency to a small degree...more cool air over the HX strips heat from the flue gasses better


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> That's WAY high from what ours is.  Our 75KBTU LP furnace has a temp rise of 48° using the LOW speed tap and 42° using the MEDIUM-LOW speed tap.  I'm currently using the  LOW speed tap as it still falls within spec.  These were measured after 15 minutes of the furnace running.


Yeah that's probably true...I'm thinking of the old 80% furnaces


----------



## Getwidit

I'll have to test the temps with, seems like some registers are hotter than others. Also depends on when the fan kicks on.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah you will probably have to cut the closer registers back to push the heat to the further ones...if you want more there. Its a balancing act


----------



## brenndatomu

If you are puling in return air off the basement floor, @JRHAWK9  discovered that pulling return air off the basement ceiling can result in another 5-10* going out the supply ducts. I found it helps too...so I have my return air ducts hooked up this year


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> If you are puling in return air off the basement floor, @JRHAWK9  discovered that pulling return air off the basement ceiling can result in another 5-10* going out the supply ducts. I found it helps too...so I have my return air ducts hooked up this year


 That makes a lot of sense my concrete floor is atleast 5-10 degrees lower than my first floor. I'll have the cold air return kit. I just need to install. Which I can see why would make a big difference now.


----------



## Gbawol42

Ok a little question on the heatmax 2, the manual states the blower has 4 speeds.  I have never heard the blower change speeds, is it a manual change that I have to do based on static pressure needs? Or is it a variable speed blower based on plenum temps.  

I have only heard the blower kick on at , I think, 130 degree and back off at 115 degree. Only one speed heard.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> is it a manual change that I have to do based on static pressure needs? Or is it a variable speed blower based on plenum temps.


Both...you can change the "normal" speed manually by switching which tap is powered up (just like the T1) or it will switch to high speed if needed...but I think it takes a real hot fire to make it switch...like almost to the point of over firing. 
Never have seen anyone say what temp it happens at...would be nice to know. Maybe shoot SBI an email and ask them point blank what temp it switches at...


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Both...you can change the "normal" speed manually by switching which tap is powered up (just like the T1) or it will switch to high speed if needed...but I think it takes a real hot fire to make it switch...like almost to the point of over firing.
> Never have seen anyone say what temp it happens at...would be nice to know. Maybe shoot SBI an email and ask them point blank what temp it switches at...



Mine switched to high mode automatically today and I checked the temp and it said 175.


----------



## Getwidit

Quick question if I add one more 6 inch air duct from my plenum to my main supply duct. Currently i have 6. I'm getting .15ish and that's with most of my first floor ducts closed 70 to 80 percent of the way.  If I add one more duct will it increase my sp or decrease? I feel it seems kind of inefficient that most my ducts on the first floor are close so much to get the heat up stairs plus my sp where it should be. Not to mention I heard my fan jump into high mode today so I'm nervous.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> If I add one more duct will it increase my sp or decrease? I feel it seems kind of inefficient that most my ducts on the first floor are close so much to get the heat up stairs plus my sp where it should be


I agree completely.
Adding a duct will make it drop.


Getwidit said:


> Not to mention I heard my fan jump into high mode today so I'm nervous.


I agree again...in my experience that is 50* higher than "normal" supply plenum operating temps with a Tundra.
As I mentioned before, I quit chasing the seemingly unachievable .2 SP. 
Temp rise means much more to me than SP. If you can get a 40-50* temp rise, I'd call it good. 
That should put your plenum temps in the 110* - 120* range, and that will heat your house. My Kuuma seldom runs over 120* in the plenum...spends most of the time in the 110-115* range honestly. I don't even know what my SP is (I'm sure its low, real low) not sure Lamppa even mentions SP in the manual either.
I'd open those ducts back up _at least_ a little and run it! Adjust them for more or less heat where you want/need it, never mind the SP.


----------



## brenndatomu

Plus 125* air coming out of your plenum will pull more heat from the flue gasses than 175* air will...that means better efficiency. Better deltaT


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Mine switched to high mode automatically today and I checked the temp and it said 175.


Good info, thanks!


----------



## Getwidit

I thought u when u said 40 to 50 higher u meant at the far end of the duct work. Not what the actually plenum temp is.  That makes more sense. My plenum is generally between 120 and 140. I was going to say I'm lucky if my air temp at duct is 85 90. Besides today and it only kicked into high mode for maybe 5 minutes max. 

I'm thinking I might need to just bust my fan up one notch to strip alittle more heat from the plenum and to be able to open my first floor vents alittle more. Seem like the basement is the hottest room in the house.


----------



## Getwidit

Well the reason I thought I should close the ducts up some was because of low sp? Which was causing the over heat fan to kick on? Maybe I have this whole thing backwards.


----------



## brenndatomu

Closing the ducts off...or having less of them, will raise SP...and the plenum/duct temps too.
If you are running 120-140* plenum temps then that is plenty...you could speed the blower up one notch...or just open the ducts back up some...accomplish the same thing.
Personally, I like having the ducts open as much as possible so that the system has at least a shot at gravity heating if the power goes out with a full load in the firebox...heat going up the ducts into the house means the firebox is being cooled down, at least to some degree.


----------



## Gbawol42

SBI finally emailed me back with the specs for the blower speed vs plenum temps.  Also the safety cut off for plenum temp.  Here is what they said.

The blower modulates based on the plenum temperature. If the plenum reaches a temperature of 250 F then the unit will automatically close the air supply damper and put the blower on high (speed 4) until the temperature drops below 175 F. See KIP ( Kick In Point) and KOP (Kick Out Point) values below.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> SBI finally emailed me back with the specs for the blower speed vs plenum temps.  Also the safety cut off for plenum temp.  Here is what they said.
> 
> The blower modulates based on the plenum temperature. If the plenum reaches a temperature of 250 F then the unit will automatically close the air supply damper and put the blower on high (speed 4) until the temperature drops below 175 F. See KIP ( Kick In Point) and KOP (Kick Out Point) values below.


Excellent info!
Boy, 110* seems like a high KOP to me...losing some BTU's for sure!


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> Excellent info!
> Boy, 110* seems like a high KOP to me...losing some BTU's for sure!



This is exactly what I was thinking.

This also really makes me wonder about my wood because I don't think I have ever seen my plenum go above 150.  I have seen 145 on a startup, but that about it.


----------



## Mojappa

Gbawol42 said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> This also really makes me wonder about my wood because I don't think I have ever seen my plenum go above 150.  I have seen 145 on a startup, but that about it.


Makes me wonder what I’m doing wrong, I hit 180 pretty easily though it cools down to 150 quickly and hangs out there for a while. Highest I’ve seen is 210. I thought maybe I was waiting g too long to close the primary air but if I do that much sooner the Fire seems to fizzle down within 5-10 minutes and I have to reopen the primary air until it’s going stronger.


----------



## Gbawol42

Mojappa said:


> Makes me wonder what I’m doing wrong, I hit 180 pretty easily though it cools down to 150 quickly and hangs out there for a while. Highest I’ve seen is 210. I thought maybe I was waiting g too long to close the primary air but if I do that much sooner the Fire seems to fizzle down within 5-10 minutes and I have to reopen the primary air until it’s going stronger.



I also wondered if I had a lot of gravity flow in my system keeping some of the heat moving up while the blower was off.   I have all 6 of my pipes off the plenum pointed up.

My flue warms up great, up to about 600-650 in usually under 20 minutes, front of the stove usually around 450-500 on the magnetic.  But like I said the plenum only gets to around 140 in these conditions.  I think I need to try a full load of for sure dry wood to see what it is supposed to burn like and let that be the judge of my woods current condition.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> I also wondered if I had a lot of gravity flow in my system keeping some of the heat moving up while the blower was off. I have all 6 of my pipes off the plenum pointed up.


Exactly what I was thinking...


----------



## JRHAWK9

man, I don't get why you guys are shooting for such crazy high plenum temps....??  Get that warm air up stairs.  The way I see it, all you are doing by keeping that heat built up in your plenum is reducing your overall delivered efficiency and probably heating up the space where the furnace is located more than you should be.

Maybe I'm being ignorant though, as only experience I have is with my furnace.


----------



## Mojappa

JRHAWK9 said:


> man, I don't get why you guys are shooting for such crazy high plenum temps....??  Get that warm air up stairs.  The way I see it, all you are doing by keeping that heat built up in your plenum is reducing your overall delivered efficiency and probably heating up the space where the furnace is located more than you should be.
> 
> Maybe I'm being ignorant though, as only experience I have is with my furnace.


I’m certainly not shooting for high numbers, it’s just what seems to happen at the beginning of a load, especially if the stove still has some heat to it from the previous load. Might also be because I only have 3 of the 6 ducts hooked up so far, hoping to have two more done on Sunday.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> Might also be because I only have 3 of the 6 ducts hooked up so far,


That'll do it.


----------



## Gbawol42

JRHAWK9 said:


> man, I don't get why you guys are shooting for such crazy high plenum temps....??  Get that warm air up stairs.  The way I see it, all you are doing by keeping that heat built up in your plenum is reducing your overall delivered efficiency and probably heating up the space where the furnace is located more than you should be.
> 
> Maybe I'm being ignorant though, as only experience I have is with my furnace.



Well my issue is I feel I need to keep the plenum warmer so the blower stays on longer.  I am doing a lot of cycling after the damper is closed.  I feel the less the blower runs the warmer my basement is.  I do kinda wish the blower was set up to continue running a little below 110, and maybe at a slower speed to accommodate it.  To be honest the speed 1 is pretty fast imo.  Maybe it was to be that way to maintain SP? Not sure.


----------



## Mojappa

Gbawol42 said:


> Well my issue is I feel I need to keep the plenum warmer so the blower stays on longer.  I am doing a lot of cycling after the damper is closed.  I feel the less the blower runs the warmer my basement is.  I do kinda wish the blower was set up to continue running a little below 110, and maybe at a slower speed to accommodate it.  To be honest the speed 1 is pretty fast imo.  Maybe it was to be that way to maintain SP? Not sure.


Maybe one of the veterans of the Drolet furnaces can correct me but I think the variable speed control mod is supposed help with that.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> I also wondered if I had a lot of gravity flow in my system keeping some of the heat moving up while the blower was off.   I have all 6 of my pipes off the plenum pointed up.



I have a completely open and very large plenum which ties into a 24x10 (?) main duct.  This is done so there is gravity flow in case of a power outage.



Gbawol42 said:


> Well my issue is I feel I need to keep the plenum warmer so the blower stays on longer.  I am doing a lot of cycling after the damper is closed.  I feel the less the blower runs the warmer my basement is.  I do kinda wish the blower was set up to continue running a little below 110, and maybe at a slower speed to accommodate it.  To be honest the speed 1 is pretty fast imo.  Maybe it was to be that way to maintain SP? Not sure.



I bet the basement is warmer the less the blower runs as it's not delivering the heat up stairs....hence your delivered efficiency is low.

Slowing my blower down made a HUGE difference in our house.  It's turning so slow at the 96° kickoff I can barely even feel it pull air into the furnace on the cold air side when I put my hand over the intake at the basement ceiling.  Doubt I would be able to feel anything come out of the vents upstairs.  Only way to find out if it will work for you is to speed control your blower.  This is what I did to mine.  Doing so made a difference, but the biggest difference was when I started to experiment with slowing the blower down.  The more I slowed it down the better results I saw.  I'm not so sure slowing the blower down as much as I did will work for all setups though.  No idea why it worked so good for me.  I never had an issue with the blower cycling, sure, it cycled at the end of a burn, but it always ran constant throughout most of it.  It was just blowing higher volumes of cooler air compared to the lower volume of warmer air it does now.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> Maybe one of the veterans of the Drolet furnaces can correct me but I think the variable speed control mod is supposed help with that.


That it exactly why it was done...all that blower cycling drove me crazy...and I knew there was BTU's being lost at the end of the burn when the blower was off more than on. Blower speed control makes the blower speed follow the plenum temp...VERY little cycling...


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> Blower speed control makes the blower speed follow the plenum temp...VERY little cycling...



or in my case, zero cycling due to the slow blower speed.  It's either on or off.  When it turns off you pretty much need to do a matchless re-light to get things warmed back up before it will kick back on.  The blower runs non-stop if there's any amount of fire and/or coals.


----------



## Gbawol42

JRHAWK9 said:


> or in my case, zero cycling due to the slow blower speed.  It's either on or off.  When it turns off you pretty much need to do a matchless re-light to get things warmed back up before it will kick back on.  The blower runs non-stop if there's any amount of fire and/or coals.



This would seem like the ideal way to keep the most heat upstairs and not dumping into the basement.  

I'm sure you guys are kinda getting hit by this cold snap, I believe it is dipping pretty low in the country.  Want to just watch and run the furnace as is to get a little more data now that i can start putting bigger loads into the firebox.  

Only 22 degrees right now. In the beginning of November, ugh.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> I'm sure you guys are kinda getting hit by this cold snap,



yup!  Was 8° Thursday morning and 2° this morning.  Going to be 40° tomorrow though.  Monday and Tuesday nights are supposed to be back down into the  single digits.  We actually have leaves accumulating on top of the snow.  LOL


----------



## sloeffle

JRHAWK9 said:


> It's turning so slow at the 96° kickoff I can barely even feel it pull air into the furnace on the cold air side when I put my hand over the intake at the basement ceiling.  Doubt I would be able to feel anything come out of the vents upstairs.


@JRHAWK9 we've might of discussed this before. Does your JRHAWK5000 have a DC or AC motor on  it ?


----------



## JRHAWK9

sloeffle said:


> @JRHAWK9 we've might of discussed this before. Does your JRHAWK5000 have a DC or AC motor on  it ?



It's AC, but I have a ball bearing motor in it.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> JRHAWK5000


Its SpaceHawk1000©...  

I have not converted to a ball bearing motor, but have turned it down_ really slow_ (while monitoring for motor overheat) and did not get the same results as JR did with the low CFM's. 
On my system (and most I would guess) just running the blower slow enough to keep if from shutting off before the firebox is down to "just warm" is as much as I have to gain...keeping it running after that doesn't seem to help.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Gbawol42 said:


> SBI finally emailed me back with the specs for the blower speed vs plenum temps.  Also the safety cut off for plenum temp.  Here is what they said.
> 
> The blower modulates based on the plenum temperature. If the plenum reaches a temperature of 250 F then the unit will automatically close the air supply damper and put the blower on high (speed 4) until the temperature drops below 175 F. See KIP ( Kick In Point) and KOP (Kick Out Point) values below.



This is really useful info.  Thanks!

Is there any other way (such as on the display, without extrapolating from the plenum temp) to tell which speed the blower is running on the T2?   Is there any use at all for that display other than viewing the plenum temps?  Would be interesting to be able to alter those KIP/KOP values.  

I'm leaning toward doing the ICM mod, but I'd like to feel as if I understand what the blower is doing in its stock configuration before I make changes.  I guess the difference between speed 1 and speed 2 is so slight I'm not convinced it exists.


----------



## Gbawol42

Socratic Monologue said:


> This is really useful info.  Thanks!
> 
> Is there any other way (such as on the display, without extrapolating from the plenum temp) to tell which speed the blower is running on the T2?   Is there any use at all for that display other than viewing the plenum temps?  Would be interesting to be able to alter those KIP/KOP values.
> 
> I'm leaning toward doing the ICM mod, but I'd like to feel as if I understand what the blower is doing in its stock configuration before I make changes.  I guess the difference between speed 1 and speed 2 is so slight I'm not convinced it exists.



Yes. I was going to begin looking into lowering that KOP on speed one a little lower.  Not sure if it's even possible.  My biggest thing I believe is i need to out a air return duct on, hoping that can improve temps a bit heading upstairs.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

I have some questions about the ICM blower mod that weren't directly answered in the thread so far:

Is the ICM333 appropriate? (https://www.icmcontrols.com/productdetails/ICM333)  Seems like the other ICM models mentioned here, but the 333 has an adjustable temp setpoint (70F-140F), which I assume would do the work of the resistor that some folks have put on their probe.  I don't know if there is some other aspect of this controller that makes it different from the ICM 326 that I've seen mentioned.

Is it best to hook line 120vac to the controller, or to run the speed 1 lead from the stock T2 control board?   

I need a 24vac transformer to power the ICM, I believe.  Is there a reason to somehow switch this power (high temp thermostat?) or just leave the ICM powered all the time?

I installed a thermostatic damper control, but I feel like I understand the basic idea behind the blower mod less well (though I do see a need to catch some of the late-burn heat better).   Any and all advice will be appreciated.


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> I have some questions about the ICM blower mod that weren't directly answered in the thread so far:
> 
> Is the ICM333 appropriate? (https://www.icmcontrols.com/productdetails/ICM333)  Seems like the other ICM models mentioned here, but the 333 has an adjustable temp setpoint (70F-140F), which I assume would do the work of the resistor that some folks have put on their probe.  I don't know if there is some other aspect of this controller that makes it different from the ICM 326 that I've seen mentioned.
> 
> Is it best to hook line 120vac to the controller, or to run the speed 1 lead from the stock T2 control board?
> 
> I need a 24vac transformer to power the ICM, I believe.  Is there a reason to somehow switch this power (high temp thermostat?) or just leave the ICM powered all the time?
> 
> I installed a thermostatic damper control, but I feel like I understand the basic idea behind the blower mod less well (though I do see a need to catch some of the late-burn heat better).   Any and all advice will be appreciated.


The 333 should work...but I think I recall someone tried one and didn't like the way it worked.
I have tried hooking both the hot and the neutral through the ICM...seems to work fine either way...their directions are vague I think...but it appears that they call for the neutral side of the motor to go through the ICM
As far as how to wire it up specifically to a T2...I've never messed with a T2, but @Case1030  did his.
Some people power the ICM all the time...some have wired it in after the factory blower controls. I've done both...currently leaving the ICM do all the controlling. I unplug the power to the furnace and everything in the off season then.
As for the resistor on the temp probe...I have since switched to a 5k pot...easily adjustable to dial in your specific setup.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Having added the ICM mod before, I not sure it is worth installing an ICM with the newer units as the blower cut off temp seems to be between 105 and 110....


----------



## 3fordasho

Socratic Monologue said:


> I have some questions about the ICM blower mod that weren't directly answered in the thread so far:
> 
> Is the ICM333 appropriate? (https://www.icmcontrols.com/productdetails/ICM333)  Seems like the other ICM models mentioned here, but the 333 has an adjustable temp setpoint (70F-140F), which I assume would do the work of the resistor that some folks have put on their probe.  I don't know if there is some other aspect of this controller that makes it different from the ICM 326 that I've seen mentioned.
> 
> Is it best to hook line 120vac to the controller, or to run the speed 1 lead from the stock T2 control board?
> 
> I need a 24vac transformer to power the ICM, I believe.  Is there a reason to somehow switch this power (high temp thermostat?) or just leave the ICM powered all the time?
> 
> I installed a thermostatic damper control, but I feel like I understand the basic idea behind the blower mod less well (though I do see a need to catch some of the late-burn heat better).   Any and all advice will be appreciated.



Don't know if I got a bad one but my particular ICM333 has a couple characteristics I wasn't happy with - first the hard start didn't work, the hard start should start the fan motor at full voltage for a second or two and then drop the speed to what ever level the thermistor is measuring. Mine started the motor at reduced voltage. The totaline unit bren recommends works correctly and I've tried two of them.  2nd there is a switch over point on these unit when it drops from full voltage to the start of the speed control range, so from 100% (green led on) to ~80% on down (yellow led on) That initial drop is very noticeable and my ICM333 would alternate between the two many times during some burns. sometimes rapidly.  Both totaline units I'm using do not do this.   The only down side of the totaline unit is there is not temp adjust pot on the unit - easy to solve however, I just added a 10 turn 5k pot in series with the thermistor and it works great!

One more thing both units will run the blower very slowly at the end of the burn, too slowly in my opinion-regardless of setting on the cut out pot- you could barely hear it running. I added an adjustable snap switch to shut down the 24vac to the ICM333 or Totaline unit to shut it down the blower before it could run that slowly.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Thanks for all the info so far.  This helps a lot.



3fordasho said:


> Don't know if I got a bad one but my particular ICM333 has a couple characteristics I wasn't happy with - first the hard start didn't work



There's a report here about an ICM failing, too.  I know things die, but maybe the quality of the ICMs in lacking.



Mrpelletburner said:


> Having added the ICM mod before, I not sure it is worth installing an ICM with the newer units as the blower cut off temp seems to be between 105 and 110....



Yes, it cuts out at 110F, but has to rise back to 125F to kick on again.    Is the T1 much different in cut out temp?


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> I know things die, but maybe the quality of the ICMs in lacking.


ICM is regarded to be a top quality brand by HVAC people...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

brenndatomu said:


> ICM is regarded to be a top quality brand by HVAC people...



That's good to know.  It is made in the US, too, so it has that going for it.

Mostly because it seems to be the most well-tested option here and I'm feeling a bit cautious today, I've just ordered a Totaline.  I'll report back once I've run it for a while.


----------



## sloeffle

3fordasho said:


> The totaline unit bren recommends works correctly and I've tried two of them.  2nd there is a switch over point on these unit when it drops from full voltage to the start of the speed control range, so from 100% (green led on) to ~80% on down (yellow led on) That initial drop is very noticeable and my ICM333 would alternate between the two many times during some burns. sometimes rapidly.


My old ICM did that too. I have the Totaline now and it doesn't do that like the ICM did. The motor on my furnace also made some very weird noises with the ICM controller too. I bought the ICM controller from eBay so it is hard to tell what life it lived before I bought it too.



Socratic Monologue said:


> There's a report here about an ICM failing, too.  I know things die, but maybe the quality of the ICMs in lacking.



My ICM 326 died last winter on a Friday night before a big cold snap was heading this way. I found a local HVAC supply house that would sell one to me but they only sold Totaline. The reason I didn't get the Totaline to begin with was that I had to run a wire back to my 24V transformer. Push came to shove and I picked the Totaline up locally, wired it up and my furnace runs a lot better with it than the ICM controller I had before. 

I bought a supposed brand new ICM controller for $20 off eBay last year as a backup. I couldn't find a Totaline any where in that price range on eBay. I think I gave around $150 for the Totaline from the local HVAC company. If the current Totaline were to die I'd use the ICM until I could find a Totaline at a half  way decent price or I'd just go buy another Totaline from the local HVAC company. I keep the flebay ICM around because with my luck, the next one will die on a Saturday night and I'd be stuck until Monday. I'm some what of a worry wart, so I have two furnaces, two hot water heaters, two tractors, three vehicles for two people and list goes on.


----------



## brenndatomu

What's weird is that I'm almost positive that ICM makes the Totaline stuff too...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

brenndatomu said:


> What's weird is that I'm almost positive that ICM makes the Totaline stuff too...



I read that on an HVAC forum, too.  

ICM's website says they have only one US facility, though, and the Totaline controllers are made in China.  Totaline is a subsidiary of Carrier; I couldn't find any corporate connection to ICM.


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> The 333 should work...but I think I recall someone tried one and didn't like the way it worked.
> I have tried hooking both the hot and the neutral through the ICM...seems to work fine either way...their directions are vague I think...but it appears that they call for the neutral side of the motor to go through the ICM
> As far as how to wire it up specifically to a T2...I've never messed with a T2, but @Case1030  did his.
> Some people power the ICM all the time...some have wired it in after the factory blower controls. I've done both...currently leaving the ICM do all the controlling. I unplug the power to the furnace and everything in the off season then.
> As for the resistor on the temp probe...I have since switched to a 5k pot...easily adjustable to dial in your specific setup.


I am in the process of doing the adjustable speed mod on my T2.  Where has the temp probe been installed in the plenum?


----------



## brenndatomu

Gearhead660 said:


> I am in the process of doing the adjustable speed mod on my T2.  Where has the temp probe been installed in the plenum?


I've never run a T2...mine was a 1, and no plenum on it... @Case1030 did his T2...


----------



## Case1030

Gearhead660 said:


> I am in the process of doing the adjustable speed mod on my T2.  Where has the temp probe been installed in the plenum?



I placed the probe in between the plennum extension.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Do you mind posting a couple more photos of your setup? Is that I timer I see connected?


----------



## Gearhead660

Case1030 said:


> I placed the probe in between the plennum extension.


Thanks.   Waiting for all parts to arrive.   Will update when i get it up and running.


----------



## Case1030

@Mrpelletburner, here you go... a few cobwebs. I have both a high temp relay and another low temp relay to open during the coaling stage for very cold weather.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Thanks! I had this setup working great with the FC1500, still on the fence if I am going to add it to the Heatmax. I do plan on adding the timer as that was a great “set and forget” mod.


----------



## Gbawol42

Mrpelletburner said:


> Thanks! I had this setup working great with the FC1500, still on the fence if I am going to add it to the Heatmax. I do plan on adding the timer as that was a great “set and forget” mod.



I would be late for work everyday without the timer mod,  should be a standard


----------



## Getwidit

Gbawol42 said:


> I would be late for work everyday without the timer mod,  should be a standard



Anyone have a how to for the timer model? I've had issues with my thermostat. When its wired it opens the damper and wont close even when temp is achieved.. I'm going to try another stat but I'm almost positive nothing wrong with it.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Yes... just connect the 2 wires from the timer to the 2 post terminals that you also connect the thermostat to.


----------



## Case1030

Getwidit said:


> Anyone have a how to for the timer model? I've had issues with my thermostat. When its wired it opens the damper and wont close even when temp is achieved.. I'm going to try another stat but I'm almost positive nothing wrong with it.



The tstat has to be positioned so far away from the furnace. They have a diagram in the manual. 

But honestly the timer mod is the way to go. I'm sure it increases the longevity and efficiency of the furnace aswell. 

Later today I'll try to dig up some old posts regarding the timer/temp controller mod.


----------



## Gbawol42

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes... just connect the 2 wires from the timer to the 2 post terminals that you also connect the thermostat to.



This is how mine is, when the timer is on it's just like the tstat is calling for heat.  Timer clicks off, damper closes. Plus I'll never forget to flip the damper switch after reloading.


----------



## Getwidit

Case1030 said:


> The tstat has to be positioned so far away from the furnace. They have a diagram in the manual.
> 
> But honestly the timer mod is the way to go. I'm sure it increases the longevity and efficiency of the furnace aswell.
> 
> Later today I'll try to dig up some old posts regarding the timer/temp controller mod.


 I understand all the clearances. How ever if I set my thermostat to 65, the reading temp says 75 in the room. The damper should be closed... how ever no matter what when the wires are connected from thermostat to unit. Even when I have the thermostat turned off the damper opens and stays open..


----------



## Gbawol42

Case1030 said:


> @Mrpelletburner, here you go... a few cobwebs. I have both a high temp relay and another low temp relay to open during the coaling stage for very cold weather.



I'm sure its buried in the post somewhere, but what did you set your high and low temps at?


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Getwidit said:


> I understand all the clearances. How ever if I set my thermostat to 65, the reading temp says 75 in the room. The damper should be closed... how ever no matter what when the wires are connected from thermostat to unit. Even when I have the thermostat turned off the damper opens and stays open..


What happens if you simply detach one of the wires from the thermostat? This should cause the damper to close (because there is an open circuit). 

I took a little time to be sure I was connecting to the correct terminals on the thermostat.  With a multimeter, check for continuity to find the two terminals that open when the thermostat is not calling for heat, and close when the thermostat is calling for heat.

Also, the manual damper switch on the control box has to be in the position that allows the damper to close -- you can disconnect the thermostat and figure out which position that is (and then label it so no one flips it and forces the damper open).


----------



## Case1030

Gbawol42 said:


> I'm sure its buried in the post somewhere, but what did you set your high and low temps at?



Low temp is at 320f and high of 460f. Few people have thier temps set lower but my draft is minimum. (I dont even use a baro damper) my chimney stays clean as a whistle. It usually cycles 2-3 times before it keeps the secondary burn going. I have the timer (60 minute) in parallel with the temp controller. I'll usually crank it to 60 mins every fresh reload... since my furnace idles at 320-370f flue it wont reopen the damper once the secondarys take off. I love the setup. 

On cold snaps I have another relay that connects directly to the furnace with no timer. I have it set to open at round 220f to burn the coals off. (Regular weather disable it by returning the Alam2 values back to 0.)


----------



## Gbawol42

Case1030 said:


> Low temp is at 320f and high of 460f. Few people have thier temps set lower but my draft is minimum. (I dont even use a baro damper) my chimney stays clean as a whistle. It usually cycles 2-3 times before it keeps the secondary burn going. I have the timer (60 minute) in parallel with the temp controller. I'll usually crank it to 60 mins every fresh reload... since my furnace idles at 320-370f flue it wont reopen the damper once the secondarys take off. I love the setup.
> 
> On cold snaps I have another relay that connects directly to the furnace with no timer. I have it set to open at round 220f to burn the coals off. (Regular weather disable it by returning the Alam2 values back to 0.)



Awesome, thanks.  I am currently trying to dial in my temp controller so these values are helpful.  I have never gone more than 20 minutes on a fresh reload (30 on a cold stove) do you find a better burn leaving the damper open longer? Just wondering if there was too much heat heading up the flue or if it was beneficial


----------



## Case1030

Gbawol42 said:


> Awesome, thanks.  I am currently trying to dial in my temp controller so these values are helpful.  I have never gone more than 20 minutes on a fresh reload (30 on a cold stove) do you find a better burn leaving the damper open longer? Just wondering if there was too much heat heading up the flue or if it was beneficial



By turning the dial to 60 mins won't keep the damper open any longer than it needs to achieve temperature wise. 

Say if you have a few damp pieces of wood mixed in with your firebox and the secondarys don't take off to keep the flue at above 320f.  (Which I have found to be the sweet spot on my furnace). It might need more than 2-3 tries (20mins). And if the secondaries do light they are usually always keeping the inside flue temp (for me) little about 320f. Just gives me extra confidence the fire won't smolder out.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> keeping the inside flue temp (for me) little about 320f. Just gives me extra confidence the fire won't smolder out.




Believe I am running into this situation. Temps outside are right around 32F, so it is not hard to satisfied the thermostat. So the flap closes, secondaries are going for a bit only to eventually die down. At this point the blower cycles on and off all while the fire smolders. At some point we will get that camp fire smell, not there is smoke entering into the basement, but just that smell.

Does that mean I need to add a nail or something to keep the flap open or do I need to connect up my mypin to open the flap when the flue temp goes below 320ish?


----------



## Gbawol42

Case1030 said:


> By turning the dial to 60 mins won't keep the damper open any longer than it needs to achieve temperature wise.
> 
> Say if you have a few damp pieces of wood mixed in with your firebox and the secondarys don't take off to keep the flue at above 320f.  (Which I have found to be the sweet spot on my furnace). It might need more than 2-3 tries (20mins). And if the secondaries do light they are usually always keeping the inside flue temp (for me) little about 320f. Just gives me extra confidence the fire won't smolder out.



Ok it hits the upper limit of the temp controller, didn't think of that.  This makes perfect sense now.  I believe this is a setup that I may be coping in the future as it would solve the problem of me going downstairs and opening the damper again if the fire didn't take off like it should.


----------



## Case1030

Gbawol42 said:


> Ok it hits the upper limit of the temp controller, didn't think of that.  This makes perfect sense now.  I believe this is a setup that I may be coping in the future as it would solve the problem of me going downstairs and opening the damper again if the fire didn't take off like it should.



Exactly, I only spend a few minutes each loading. Set and forget.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> The tstat has to be positioned so far away from the furnace. They have a diagram in the manual.
> 
> But honestly the timer mod is the way to go. I'm sure it increases the longevity and efficiency of the furnace aswell.
> 
> Later today I'll try to dig up some old posts regarding the timer/temp controller mod.


I think that 15 ft is just so the tstat doesn't get too much heat, too fast, directly from the furnace...


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Believe I am running into this situation. Temps outside are right around 32F, so it is not hard to satisfied the thermostat. So the flap closes, secondaries are going for a bit only to eventually die down. At this point the blower cycles on and off all while the fire smolders. At some point we will get that camp fire smell, not there is smoke entering into the basement, but just that smell.
> 
> Does that mean I need to add a nail or something to keep the flap open or do I need to connect up my mypin to open the flap when the flue temp goes below 320ish?


Paper clip on the damper flap works good...try it, see what happens. Sounds like wood may be marginal too...try adding some dry construction (pine) scraps to the load.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Low temp is at 320f and high of 460f. Few people have thier temps set lower but my draft is minimum.


My draft ran more normal, to high...I had my T1 temp controller set to 350* high (close) 300* low (re-open)


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Believe I am running into this situation. Temps outside are right around 32F, so it is not hard to satisfied the thermostat. So the flap closes, secondaries are going for a bit only to eventually die down. At this point the blower cycles on and off all while the fire smolders. At some point we will get that camp fire smell, not there is smoke entering into the basement, but just that smell.
> 
> Does that mean I need to add a nail or something to keep the flap open or do I need to connect up my mypin to open the flap when the flue temp goes below 320ish?



I bent a nail to hang then grinded it flat on both sides untill I got desired flue temp.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> My draft ran more normal, to high...I had my T1 temp controller set to 350* high (close) 300* low (re-open)



Are these temps for when the timer is active or were you controlling the draft over the entire burn cycle via the internal flue temp before the BD?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Are these temps for when the timer is active or were you controlling the draft over the entire burn cycle via the internal flue temp before the BD?


It is only when there is a "call for heat"...either from the timer, the tstat, or the manual switch. If there is no call for heat, then the damper is closed, and the only thing controlling the temp of the firebox (from getting too high) is the chimney draft not being allowed to be excessive...which a properly setup baro will generally take care of.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> It is only when there is a "call for heat"...either from the timer, the tstat, or the manual switch. If there is no call for heat, then the damper is closed, and the only thing controlling the temp of the firebox (from getting too high) is the chimney draft not being allowed to be excessive...which a properly setup baro will generally take care of.



How did you program the MyPin? 

Thinking about this low/high limit?

So the low limit keeps the damper flap opened under 320F and the high limit does? Just trying to figure out what the high limit is set for.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> How did you program the MyPin?
> 
> Thinking about this low/high limit?
> 
> So the low limit keeps the damper flap opened under 320F and the high limit does? Just trying to figure out what the high limit is set for.


Like I said above, first you need a call for heat from somewhere...that opens the damper. The controller will close the damper at your "high temp" setting. It will stay closed until the controller sees your low setting...at which point it will allow the damper to reopen, *IF*, there is still a call for heat. That's how mine worked...I didn't do the burn down coals thing like some do...I just didn't have as much problem with it as some...probably because I just fired up the stove in the fireplace if it was super cold out...no need to "push" the furnace then. (I ran both units at once)
And I tried using the tstat...I didn't like it, unhooked it. I just gave the timer 20 minutes or so after a reload, that was it...it was on "cruise control" the rest on the time...because I found for me, the best overall heat output was to leave the damper shut after the secondary combustion was started. The wood starts to go away fast if that damper is left open for too long...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Like I said above, first you need a call for heat from somewhere...that opens the damper. The controller will close the damper at your "high temp" setting. It will stay closed until the controller sees your low setting...at which point it will allow the damper to reopen, *IF*, there is still a call for heat.



Think I figured out my issue...

I think what I didn’t have set is the “green” temp value under the TC temp reading. This value is set by pressing the blue AT button and setting the value to the high limit value set?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Yea that is not it either... 

Over 440F the flap closes and under 440F the flap opens again.


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> Like I said above, first you need a call for heat from somewhere...that opens the damper. The controller will close the damper at your "high temp" setting. It will stay closed until the controller sees your low setting...at which point it will allow the damper to reopen, *IF*, there is still a call for heat. That's how mine worked...I didn't do the burn down coals thing like some do...I just didn't have as much problem with it as some...probably because I just fired up the stove in the fireplace if it was super cold out...no need to "push" the furnace then. (I ran both units at once)
> And I tried using the tstat...I didn't like it, unhooked it. I just gave the timer 20 minutes or so after a reload, that was it...it was on "cruise control" the rest on the time...because I found for me, the best overall heat output was to leave the damper shut after the secondary combustion was started. The wood starts to go away fast if that damper is left open for too long...


Sorry, still trying to understand all the temp controller info as I plan to add this mod to my burner...the temp controller is controlling the damper for the whole burn cycle of the load?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Gearhead660 said:


> Sorry, still trying to understand all the temp controller info as I plan to add this mod to my burner...the temp controller is controlling the damper for the whole burn cycle of the load?



Yes, but only when there is a call for heat.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yea that is not it either...
> 
> Over 440F the flap closes and under 440F the flap opens again.
> 
> 
> View attachment 251925
> 
> View attachment 251926
> 
> View attachment 251927


What is Hy1 set to? That is your hysteresis...or the range between high/low, or open and closed. If you want it to close at 440, then reopen at 340 Hy1 needs to be 100


----------



## brenndatomu

And I just went out and looked, my temps were not 350/300 like I said before, they were 350/250.
I've got my old Tundra dug out and cleaned up after being ignored in the garage the last two winter's...she's gonna go to a loving home where she can once again serve her purpose by eating her master's firewood pile, and then warming his/her hands and feet!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> What is Hy1 set to? That is your hysteresis...or the range between high/low, or open and closed. If you want it to close at 440, then reopen at 340 Hy1 needs to be 100



Is this setting correct?





Hy1 was set to 1. Tried to change it and now I can only set it between 320 (low limit set) and up to my hi limit of 440

What am I missing?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

So I set the lower limit to 100, which allowed me to set hy1 to 100. I then set the lsp to 250 and hsp to 1200.

So lsp 250, hsp 1200 & hy1 100 and the “out” is triggering at 320 not at 250 and 350.

Now the green text reads 320 which is the value of alarm 1 and ao1 is set to 1.


----------



## Gearhead660

Mrpelletburner said:


> Yes, but only when there is a call for heat.


Ok, I think I get it now.  The temp controller is to keep it blowing hot air when heat is called for.  I don't have mine hooked up to a t stat.  I just load mine and let it put out the heat.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

I found this write up using the alarm settings, not sure if this will help achieve what I am looking to do.

http://www.brewrigs.com/pid-settings.html


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Gearhead660 said:


> The temp controller is to keep it blowing hot air when heat is called for.



The mypin controller is used to open/close the draft flap.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I found this write up using the alarm settings, not sure if this will help achieve what I am looking to do.
> 
> http://www.brewrigs.com/pid-settings.html


I'll post all my settings later on...but you may be wired up differently than I was too.
For me, the hadest part of doing this temp controller mod was setting up the Mypin...I was really regretting  not using the same brand/model as @3fordasho  so I could cheat off his settings!


----------



## brenndatomu

Gearhead660 said:


> Ok, I think I get it now.  The temp controller is to keep it blowing hot air when heat is called for.  I don't have mine hooked up to a t stat.  I just load mine and let it put out the heat.


No, not really. The temp controller mod was to control the firebox/flue temp to a level that was not considered "overfired", because that's what SBI was saying was cracking the T1's...people were leaving the manual switch on too long and bouncing off the _*FACTORY*_ high temp limit switch...maybe their HLS needed to be a little lower temp rating if that was the case?! But that's a different subject for a different day though.
If you wire up the timer, and the temp controller, it makes the Tundra "load n go" because you can put time on the timer and walk away...it will keep the flue temp within your programmed range until the timer runs out...then if you are burning dry wood, the firebox is up to normal operating temp and the secondary combustion is making good heat...so the damper doesn't really need to open again until the next load...unless you need to burn down coals or something.
To me, using the tstat on these things is worthless, I only used the timer...my 2 cents.


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> No, not really. The temp controller mod was to control the firebox/flue temp to a level that was not considered "overfired", because that's what SBI was saying was cracking the T1's...people were leaving the manual switch on too long and bouncing off the _*FACTORY*_ high temp limit switch...maybe their HLS needed to be a little lower temp rating if that was the case?! But that's a different subject for a different day though.
> If you wire up the timer, and the temp controller, it makes the Tundra "load n go" because you can put time on the timer and walk away...it will keep the flue temp within your programmed range until the timer runs out...then if you are burning dry wood, the firebox is up to normal operating temp and the secondary combustion is making good heat...so the damper doesn't really need to open again until the next load...unless you need to burn down coals or something.
> To me using the tstat un these things is worthless, I only used the timer...my 2 cents.


I have a timer installed.  I load and set it for 20 minutes or so.   So the timer is controlling the temp controller?


----------



## brenndatomu

Gearhead660 said:


> I have a timer installed.  I load and set it for 20 minutes or so.   So the timer is controlling the temp controller?


No.
The timer gives the heat signal to the damper...damper opens...the temp controller monitors flue temp, closes damper when max temp is met...the controller interrupts the "heat" signal.


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> No.
> The timer gives the heat signal to the damper...damper opens...the temp controller monitors flue temp, closes damper when max temp is met...the controller interrupts the "heat" signal.


Got it.  They work in parallel with each other.  The part about the temp controller adjusting during timer's set time threw me off.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I found this write up using the alarm settings, not sure if this will help achieve what I am looking to do.
> 
> http://www.brewrigs.com/pid-settings.html


Ok, here is how my Mypin was programmed...this is a TA4-RNR model.
For the LSP menu...the one you get into by pushing/holding ^^  VV at the same time...I will only list the ones that were changed from the default setting it comes with.
Hy1 100
dp 1
All the rest are in the alarm menu...enter by pushing/holding the "set" button.
AL1 350
P Off
1 101
d 50
Hy5 50
b5L PID
C-F F

With Hy1 set at 100, and AL1 set at 350, this will close the damper at 350, re-open at 250...you can change these number to suit your fancy.

The way I have it wired is that terminal 2 goes to - on a 120V relay coil
Terminal 6 goes to the + terminal of the relay (if I had bought a different model Mypin, that had a NC contact, the relay would not be necessary)
Terminal 2 and 5 have a jumper wire between them.
I used the NC contacts of the relay to open the factory high limit switch circuit...so when the relay activates, it opens the circuit, closing the damper.
If you want to use the "coals burn down" feature...terminals 3 and 4 of the Mypin go to the tstat terminals on the furnace...and I don't recall anymore what the change was in the programming to make that work then...I have it disabled now, as I said before...I'm sure it was a simple change in the menu.
Keep in mind that this was on a T1...the T2 is a lot different, so you will need to verify for yourself if it will, or will not work the same...I take no responsibility if you electrocute someone/yourself, fry your control board or some other electrical component, or burn your house down...if you do not have the electrical knowledge to do this safely, either find someone that does, or don't do it at all.
And keep in mind, by doing all this, you are modifying a furnace...that is fire inside your house...and if you need to have an inspection on the install, or the insurance company wants pics, these mods probably won't fly.
Bottom line, if you decide to do this (or any mod discussed here) you assume all risks!


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> Ok, here is how my Mypin was programmed...this is a TA4-RNR model.
> For the LSP menu...the one you get into by pushing/holding ^^  VV at the same time...I will only list the ones that were changed from the default setting it comes with.
> Hy1 100
> dp 1
> All the rest are in the alarm menu...enter by pushing/holding the "set" button.
> AL1 350
> P Off
> 1 101
> d 50
> Hy5 50
> b5L PID
> C-F F
> 
> With Hy1 set at 100, and AL1 set at 350, this will close the damper at 350, re-open at 250...you can change these number to suit your fancy.
> 
> The way I have it wired is that terminal 2 goes to - on a 120V relay coil
> Terminal 6 goes to the + terminal of the relay (if I had bought a different model Mypin, that had a NC contact, the relay would not be necessary)
> Terminal 2 and 5 have a jumper wire between them.
> I used the NC contacts of the relay to open the factory high limit switch circuit...so when the relay activates, it opens the circuit, closing the damper.
> If you want to use the "coals burn down" feature...terminals 3 and 4 of the Mypin go to the tstat terminals on the furnace...and I don't recall anymore what the change was in the programming to make that work then...I have it disabled now, as I said before...I'm sure it was a simple change in the menu.
> Keep in mind that this was on a T1...the T2 is a lot different, so you will need to verify for yourself if it will, or will not work the same...I take no responsibility if you electrocute someone/yourself, fry your control board or some other electrical component, or burn your house down...if you do not have the electrical knowledge to do this safely, either find someone that does, or don't do it at all.
> And keep in mind, by doing all this, you are modifying a furnace...that is fire inside your house...and if you need to have an inspection on the install, or the insurance company wants pics, these mods probably won't fly.
> Bottom line, if you decide to do this (or any mod discussed here) you assume all risks!



This showed me what I was missing, thank you!

I did not understand that you needed to have the P set to off in order for hysteresis to function.  Literally a whole day of frustration for one little function.  So far this morning we are running as I envisioned on a reload.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> Literally a whole day of frustration for one little function.


Oh believe me...I understand! If I never have to figure out configuration/programming on one of these things from scratch again* it will be too soon!!* I contribute more than 1 gray hair to that time!


----------



## Case1030

A1 is used during cold weather to burn down coals. I keep it at 0 untill needed.

A2 is used for regular reload. Depending on the wood I'm burning I adjust it accordingly. Currently I have it 330f open, 450f close. (120f hy)

A1 and A2 can be used in reverse aswell.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Questions...

Currently I have the Mypin set to close the damper at 500f and reopen at 350f (when calling for heat). The draft is set to ~ -0.06 when the flue temp is 450f.

Couple questions... 

1) Is it normal for the fire to die out when the damper is closed for several minutes and the flue temps to drop below 200f? At this point the draft is ~ - 0.05






2) The stove pipe before the BD shows a clean burn. However after the BD, the air being drawn into the BD is creating a thin shiny black coating. Is this because of the cooler air being pulled in or should I bump up the flue temp past 500f?






View attachment 252460


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Questions...
> 
> Currently I have the Mypin set to close the damper at 500f and reopen at 350f (when calling for heat). The draft is set to ~ -0.06 when the flue temp is 450f.
> 
> Couple questions...
> 
> 1) Is it normal for the fire to die out when the damper is closed for several minutes and the flue temps to drop below 200f? At this point the draft is ~ - 0.05
> 
> View attachment 252457
> 
> 
> 2) The stove pipe before the BD shows a clean burn. However after the BD, the air being drawn into the BD is creating a thin shiny black coating. Is this because of the cooler air being pulled in or should I bump up the flue temp past 500f?
> 
> View attachment 252458
> 
> 
> View attachment 252459



I don't have a BD... but if the flue temp drops below 200f it's not burning proper.

If you know your wood is seasoned and dry enough you could try...
Bumping your BD to .07 and see if that keeps the combustion going OR put a paper clip/ small nail to keep the air inlet open a bit.

Your flue tempurature (my experience) should stay between 275f-380f during the course of the burn for steady clean heat.

Also are you doing at least 1/2 loads?

Addition: Mypin setting turn on 320f to shutoff 450f (usually cycles 2-3 times then damper stays chit entire burn)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Also are you doing at least 1/2 loads?



Prob just a bit under ½ of load. 

Just to be clear, your Mypin will prevent the stove from over firing by closing the flap?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Prob just a bit under ½ of load.
> 
> Just to be clear, your Mypin will prevent the stove from over firing by closing the flap?



Yes, and timer allows the mypin to control the damper for only 1 hour. After that damper stays shut for whole burn duration.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> Yes, and timer allows the mypin to control the damper for only 1 hour. After that damper stays shut for whole burn duration.



So late into the burn cycle, your fire will look like the following?


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> So late into the burn cycle, your fire will look like the following?
> 
> View attachment 252461



Yeah late into the burn I'd say they look similar. How many hours are you on?


----------



## brenndatomu

I wouldn't run the draft over 0.06...asking for trouble IMO.  500* max temp is plenty too...if it's dropping to 200* in a few minutes with 0.06 draft, you have wet wood. Unless this was a real small load, and a totally cold start?
Put a paper clip on the damper so it can't close quite all the way, that helps a lot with sub par wood...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Added several smaller splits ~⅓ load 3hrs ago.

BD is covered with aluminum foil, draft is -0.06, flue temp is hanging at 235f with a washer keeping the flap open.


----------



## Case1030

I'm curious to see what your burn looks like after about 45min- 60 when the danger stays shut. That would tell alot.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Added several smaller splits ~⅓ load 3hrs ago.
> 
> BD is covered with aluminum foil, draft is -0.06, flue temp is hanging at 235f with a washer keeping the flap open.
> 
> View attachment 252462



That's open quite a bit more than mine... try it and adjust as needed.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> I wouldn't run the draft over 0.06...asking for trouble IMO. 500* max temp is plenty too...if it's dropping to 200* in a few minutes with 0.06 draft, you have wet wood. Unless this was a real small load, and a totally cold start?
> Put a paper clip on the damper so it can't close quite all the way, that helps a lot with sub par wood...



I restocked the basement yesterday and as the wood comes up to ambient temperature, it has that trapped condensation. I have been mixing with 2x4 cuts and the existing stock in the basement. The existing stock is very seasoned wood and trying to use it as a mix in.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Case1030 said:


> I'm curious to see what your burn looks like after about 45min- 60 when the danger stays shut. That would tell alot.



It is a beautiful site I tell you. The wood is black and chard with a cloud of secondary burn above the fire. The is a gap between the wood and secondary burn.

I will snap a video next time.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Snapshot of the washer. Figured it would be easier adjusting the gap spacing with washers.


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> I wouldn't run the draft over 0.06...asking for trouble IMO.  500* max temp is plenty too...if it's dropping to 200* in a few minutes with 0.06 draft, you have wet wood. Unless this was a real small load, and a totally cold start?
> Put a paper clip on the damper so it can't close quite all the way, that helps a lot with sub par wood...



I agree with the excessive draft @brenndatomu. Unsafe conditions can also happen when to large of a nail is used in the damper. It seems like small adjustments make a huge difference.

Also I went to the manual. They state .04-.06 is ideal and not exceed 0.08.

All I meant by suggesting .07 is that it should have the same effect as adding a nail. I'd rather bump the draft up then risk a nail jamming the damper open.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Definitely think it’s the wood as I just raked the 3” bed of hot ash forward and the rear bottom layer was black and not that red glow that I have seen in the past.

Another question... do you clean out the air inlet in the front? Noticed that it tends to fill up with ash dust.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> That's open quite a bit more than mine... try it and adjust as needed.


I agree...that's alot...or at least it appears to be in the picture. 
The problem with raising the draft is it affects the secondary air too...can really run away on you in the right scenario.
I much prefer to crack the damper to feed a bit more primary air. Keep in mind that if you feed too much primary air it will really limit how much secondary air gets pulled in...life is just all about balance, isn't it?!


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Definitely think it’s the wood as I just raked the 3” bed of hot ash forward and the rear bottom layer was black and not that red glow that I have seen in the past.
> 
> Another question... do you clean out the air inlet in the front? Noticed that it tends to fill up with ash dust.



Every morning I use the poker to lift the bottom ash plug out (while coals are in the back). I  use a mini hand ash shovel to drop them into ash drawer. That way the pilot always stays clear.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> Another question... do you clean out the air inlet in the front? Noticed that it tends to fill up with ash dust.


Yes...I had a piece of 1/4" rubber fuel line that I used to stick in there to blow it out...don't inhale!


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> Every morning I use the poker to lift the bottom ash plug out (while coals are in the back). I  use a mini hand ash shovel to drop them into ash drawer. That way the pilot always stays clear.


You might be the first person I have heard of that ever used that dumb thing...more than once!


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> You might be the first person I have heard of that ever used that dumb thing...more than once!



Lol it seems perfect to hook onto the ash plug. I'd much rather it come with a proper rake to make bringing the coals to the front easier. But yes I see your point.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Man both tools are handy. Only wish they also provided a flat tool to rake forward.


----------



## Case1030

Mrpelletburner said:


> Man both tools are handy. Only wish they also provided a flat tool to rake forward.



Flat tools seem to bring to much ash with the coals... unless your lucky and have an ash grate.


----------



## brenndatomu

My Ash rake is an old yard rake cut in about half, then a 3' long piece of rebar welded to it for a handle...works good...even with a grate


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> My Ash rake is an old yard rake cut in about half, then a 3' long piece of rebar welded to it for a handle...works good...even with a grate



Might have to send us a picture. Will have to start mass production.


----------



## brenndatomu

Posted this once already... seems like cyberspace ate it...


----------



## Gearhead660

Mrpelletburner said:


> Man both tools are handy. Only wish they also provided a flat tool to rake forward.


I use the heat exchanger cleaning tool occasionally to move ash and coals around.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Case1030 said:


> Flat tools seem to bring to much ash with the coals... unless your lucky and have an ash grate.


Just bought one of these -- really useful!








						Wood Stove/Fireplace Combo Ash & Ember Rake 27" or 36" Made by a Blacksmith  | eBay
					

It can be used for your fireplace or wood stove. It's a little longer than most on the market. The rake is made out of 3/8" round steel. It has a wrapped handle and a hook, making it easier to hold and with more stability.



					www.ebay.com


----------



## Case1030

Socratic Monologue said:


> Just bought one of these -- really useful!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wood Stove/Fireplace Combo Ash & Ember Rake 27" or 36" Made by a Blacksmith  | eBay
> 
> 
> It can be used for your fireplace or wood stove. It's a little longer than most on the market. The rake is made out of 3/8" round steel. It has a wrapped handle and a hook, making it easier to hold and with more stability.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 252470


That seems like a good simple design. Could whip one up in 15 mins with the old arc welder.

In my spare time I'm going to try both @brenndatomu and the design you sent. See which one does the job. (Need one for the cabin anyway... im sure both do a good job.

Thanks for the link!


----------



## brenndatomu

I liked mine because it was made of materials I had laying around...literally. I was tired of tripping over the rake my wife bought at a yard sale as a "decoration" (it was a real cheapy model to begin with...not worth using as a garden rake IMO) (remember the Bugs Bunny and Tom and Jerry cartoons how they "tripped" over rakes?   )
and also some leftover rebar...it took me less than 10 minutes to cut the rake, cut the rebar, weld it, paint it...could have been 5 minutes if I could have found my grinder/cut-off wheel right away!


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> I liked mine because it was made of materials I had laying around...literally. I was tired of tripping over the rake my wife bought at a yard sale as a "decoration" (it was a real cheapy model to begin with...not worth using as a garden rake IMO) (remember the Bugs Bunny and Tom and Jerry cartoons how they "tripped" over rakes?   )
> and also some leftover rebar...it took me less than 10 minutes to cut the rake, cut the rebar, weld it, paint it...could have been 5 minutes if I could have found my grinder/cut-off wheel right away!



Nothing scrap metal, side grinder, and a welder can't handle. Both can be made from scratch very easily.


----------



## Mojappa

I’ve been thinking about drilling a small hole and tacking a nut to it so I can adjust the air flap with a hex/screwdriver. Any reasons this wouldn’t work?

edit: just noticed autocorrect changed nut to bit. :-/


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Ok here is a video ~45mins after loading for the night. Thermostat is calling for heat so the draft flap is set to close at 450f and open at 320f (adjusted from earlier)

The video captures a cycle where the flap is closed - opened - closed.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Neat video!

It looks like you're getting a lot more primary air when the damper is open than I do in my T2.  Is the HM2 actually any different in the airflow than the T2, or do you have really strong draft? (Is the HM2 different than the T2 at all?)


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Socratic Monologue said:


> Neat video!
> 
> It looks like you're getting a lot more primary air when the damper is open than I do in my T2. Is the HM2 actually any different in the airflow than the T2, or do you have really strong draft? (Is the HM2 different than the T2 at all?)



I think the 2 units share the same exact firebox/air flow, just a different badge on the side. At the same time, I am not 100% sure.

If I recall correctly, draft was set to -0.06, however at the time I shot the video, I measured -0.07/8. So yes, a strong draft.


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> Posted this once already... seems like cyberspace ate it...


Had to make my own.  Scrounged through my scrap metal pile.  Cant believe i didnt think of it earlier.  Thanks for the idea!


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Gearhead660 said:


> Had to make my own. Scrounged through my scrap metal pile. Cant believe i didnt think of it earlier. Thanks for the idea!



I need to buy a welder. Feel like I am missing out, being able to build some cool projects.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mrpelletburner said:


> I need to buy a welder. Feel like I am missing out, being able to build some cool projects.


Santa is coming...have you been good?


----------



## Mrpelletburner

brenndatomu said:


> Santa is coming...have you been good?



Nope... definitely the naughty list!


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> Neat video!
> 
> It looks like you're getting a lot more primary air when the damper is open than I do in my T2.  Is the HM2 actually any different in the airflow than the T2, or do you have really strong draft? (Is the HM2 different than the T2 at all?)


No difference, part number and cosmetics only...just so stores don't have to price match each other as much...that was straight from the SBI rep that used to be on here


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Gearhead660 said:


> Had to make my own.  Scrounged through my scrap metal pile.  Cant believe i didnt think of it earlier.  Thanks for the idea!


Hey, that's pretty nice!


----------



## Socratic Monologue

I've been spending a lot of time with the T2 the last couple days.  I realize that the radiant heat loss through the glass is enormous.  My furnace room (2 car garage size, insulated) is 5F warmer than the first floor of the (3000 sq ft -- yeah, big) house (we duct heat to the first floor only, mostly).

I learned that some wood stoves/furnaces have IR coating on the glass.  Tested with a multitester, and the T2 does not (our Hearthstone does).  I'd like to cut down that radiant heat.  So, installing IR coated glass is an option.  Standing in front of the Hearthstone (we sit on the raised hearth in front of it fairly comfortably) is a completely different experience than standing in front of the Tundra (pants start smoking...).

I also thought about eliminating the glass entirely -- at least as a trial.  Can I temporarily put a sheet of thin steel over the glass on the outside (it could be loosely hung over the lip on the top of the door), or would this reflect too much heat back through the glass?  If it worked really well I'd consider replacing the glass with a sheet of stainless steel.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Socratic Monologue said:


> I've been spending a lot of time with the T2 the last couple days. I realize that the radiant heat loss through the glass is enormous.



Same... on the plus side my first floor feels as if I ha e heated floors.

But, yea standing in front you get blasted, however both of my Fire Chief stoves also radiated a ton of heat from the front, not at this level, but close.


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> Can I temporarily put a sheet of thin steel over the glass on the outside (it could be loosely hung over the lip on the top of the door),


Bingo, loosely hung/removable...I tried that...kept the furnace room cooler, but didn't make the house upstairs any warmer. I ended up making a hot air collection hood of sorts from the ductwork parts that were laying around...ducted to the blower housing via 3" flexible aluminum duct pipe (dryer/vent hood hose?) seemed to help a bit...maybe?


----------



## Gearhead660

Socratic Monologue said:


> I've been spending a lot of time with the T2 the last couple days.  I realize that the radiant heat loss through the glass is enormous.  My furnace room (2 car garage size, insulated) is 5F warmer than the first floor of the (3000 sq ft -- yeah, big) house (we duct heat to the first floor only, mostly).
> 
> I learned that some wood stoves/furnaces have IR coating on the glass.  Tested with a multitester, and the T2 does not (our Hearthstone does).  I'd like to cut down that radiant heat.  So, installing IR coated glass is an option.  Standing in front of the Hearthstone (we sit on the raised hearth in front of it fairly comfortably) is a completely different experience than standing in front of the Tundra (pants start smoking...).
> 
> I also thought about eliminating the glass entirely -- at least as a trial.  Can I temporarily put a sheet of thin steel over the glass on the outside (it could be loosely hung over the lip on the top of the door), or would this reflect too much heat back through the glass?  If it worked really well I'd consider replacing the glass with a sheet of stainless steel.


I have mine in the basement and like the warm floors.   Was thinking about all that radiant heat too....


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

Looking for some insight on lack of heat coming from my Drolet Tundra 2.  Installed basement (below grade, uninsulated) heating via ducts to 1000 sq ft. main floor.  Burning mostly fir with 5 - 15% moisture content.  Seems to put out limited heat via ducts, yet fire is burning hot.  Also seems like blower is cycling more than it needs to?  Difficulty getting the temps above 18 C on main floor when outside temperature is only -5 C.  

To be honest - not even warming up the temperature of the basement that much.

Looking for insights - heat going up chimney? cold air return issue?  system unbalanced?  I dunno....  suggestions welcome.


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodythewoodhunter said:


> . Installed basement (below grade, uninsulated) heating via ducts to 1000 sq ft. main floor.


This is where you are losing a bunch of heat...my best guess would be the return air is pretty cold too...both huge strikes against good performance.
EDIT: Maybe I mis-read this...is the basement un-insulated, or the ducts run through un-insulated (crawl?)space?


----------



## Socratic Monologue

I agree with bren; sounds like the Tundra has to first warm up 1000sq ft uninsulated basement before it can even get going on heating the upstairs.  That may never happen.  I'm not sure what others do, but I wouldn't run it without a return air duct to the living space.


Woodythewoodhunter said:


> Looking for insights - heat going up chimney?


If you get a manometer and a digital flue thermometer, you could figure out if this is an issue.   Both are cheap and simple to install.


----------



## Gearhead660

Socratic Monologue said:


> I agree with bren; sounds like the Tundra has to first warm up 1000sq ft uninsulated basement before it can even get going on heating the upstairs.  That may never happen.  I'm not sure what others do, but I wouldn't run it without a return air duct to the living space.
> 
> If you get a manometer and a digital flue thermometer, you could figure out if this is an issue.   Both are cheap and simple to install.


I have mine in the basement and it needs to get warm down there before it starts to do a decent job of heating the upstairs.   Also like others mentioned, need warmer return air,  insulate ducts if longer or going thru unheated space.


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

brenndatomu said:


> This is where you are losing a bunch of heat...my best guess would be the return air is pretty cold too...both huge strikes against good performance.
> EDIT: Maybe I mis-read this...is the basement un-insulated, or the ducts run through un-insulated (crawl?)space?



Thanks for the response.  Basement is un-insulated, below grade (I have sealed off as much air flow as I can, including insulating the rim joists.  That area has a couple of ducts blowing warm air into it, but mostly heated radiantly by the furnace itself.  All the ducts for heating the main floor run through here, un-insulated.

Ya, I think i'm loosing a ton of heat through the basement, but actually, when it's been running steadily for a few days, it's actually pretty warm and easy to heat.

Maybe a bit part of it is until the entire basement warms up, the cold air return is just taking too much to heat up?


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

Socratic Monologue said:


> I agree with bren; sounds like the Tundra has to first warm up 1000sq ft uninsulated basement before it can even get going on heating the upstairs.  That may never happen.  I'm not sure what others do, but I wouldn't run it without a return air duct to the living space.
> 
> If you get a manometer and a digital flue thermometer, you could figure out if this is an issue.   Both are cheap and simple to install.



hmm. interesting.  I do have a grate in the main floor that is open to the basement - i've been experimenting with covering it with a rug/uncovering it.  But it's not ducted - just a grate.  Do you think that ducting in a return would help return warm air to the intake?  

I don't think it's legal to attach a cold air return to the tundra in Canada - but I can return it to the basement.  I wonder if I would have to put a fan in it to push it down.


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

Gearhead660 said:


> I have mine in the basement and it needs to get warm down there before it starts to do a decent job of heating the upstairs.   Also like others mentioned, need warmer return air,  insulate ducts if longer or going thru unheated space.



Huh.  maybe that's it.  need warmer return air.  so I either have to wait a long time before the mass of the basement warms up, or try to return warmer air.  How's your warmer return air set-up?


----------



## Gearhead660

Woodythewoodhunter said:


> Huh.  maybe that's it.  need warmer return air.  so I either have to wait a long time before the mass of the basement warms up, or try to return warmer air.  How's your warmer return air set-up?


Currently it is pulling right off the floor.  Planning to run a duct up to the ceiling to pull warmer air.   I am still in the process of getting the quirks out and doing all the fun mods.  Not sure if your basement is a large open area, but  mine is in a smaller "utility" room.


----------



## brenndatomu

Woodythewoodhunter said:


> hmm. interesting.  I do have a grate in the main floor that is open to the basement - i've been experimenting with covering it with a rug/uncovering it.  But it's not ducted - just a grate.  Do you think that ducting in a return would help return warm air to the intake?
> 
> I don't think it's legal to attach a cold air return to the tundra in Canada - but I can return it to the basement.  I wonder if I would have to put a fan in it to push it down.


Can you pull return air off the basment ceiling, instead of the floor? Can be a 10* difference between the two...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Woodythewoodhunter said:


> hmm. interesting.  I do have a grate in the main floor that is open to the basement - i've been experimenting with covering it with a rug/uncovering it.  But it's not ducted - just a grate.  Do you think that ducting in a return would help return warm air to the intake?
> 
> I don't think it's legal to attach a cold air return to the tundra in Canada - but I can return it to the basement.  I wonder if I would have to put a fan in it to push it down.


I don't know Canada's codes at all, but page 8 of the T2 manual says a return air duct is an 'authorized installation'.  I think here in the US there is some code credence given to the instructions from the manufacturer.

Yes, I think a return duct would help  -- mine is even insulated, since I don't want to warm my furnace room any more than I have to.  When your living space is at, say, 65F and your basement is at 55F, having a return air duct will allow heated air to be delivered to the living area that is 10F warmer than it would be without the return duct.   

If you want the basement to be heated, I would think that insulating it would make sense, if it is possible.


----------



## Woodythewoodhunter

I think i've had some luck with getting better temperatures  from the problem I walk talking about above with a very simple mod.  I basically suspended a old towner fan horizontal in the basement, right up by the floor joists (ceiling of basement, somewhat close to a grate), pointing towards the floor.  Stiring the warm/cold air up in the basement seems to have helped with the intake temperatures - as the intake is right where the cold air would have sat,  and now hopefully the fan is stirring up temperatures in basement a bit.  cost = $0 for a bit of an improvement.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Shifting gears on the discussion:  can someone explain the combustion air routing on the T2, please?  

So far I understand that the two square inlets under the door feed the secondaries (it looks like all the tubes on the top of the firebox are plumbed together, but I thought I read somewhere that the front tube(s) are airwash tubes and are are considered primary air...).  I also see the doghouse is a simple tube to the outside under the door (I wish that fed more air...).

Where does the air from the main damper enter the firebox? And what feeds the hole in the back of the firebox, about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the firebox?  

Trying to get this beast to follow my orders, but it is a bit recalcitrant.  More so, anyway, than the HotBlast I replaced, which did whatever I wanted as long as I kept feeding it...


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> Shifting gears on the discussion:  can someone explain the combustion air routing on the T2, please?
> 
> So far I understand that the two square inlets under the door feed the secondaries (it looks like all the tubes on the top of the firebox are plumbed together, but I thought I read somewhere that the front tube(s) are airwash tubes and are are considered primary air...).  I also see the doghouse is a simple tube to the outside under the door (I wish that fed more air...).
> 
> Where does the air from the main damper enter the firebox? And what feeds the hole in the back of the firebox, about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the firebox?
> 
> Trying to get this beast to follow my orders, but it is a bit recalcitrant.  More so, anyway, than the HotBlast I replaced, which did whatever I wanted as long as I kept feeding it...


You have it basically figured out, the two (1.5"?) square holes under each side of the front of the firebox are your secondary air holes...they run in a tube on each side, under the firebox, to the back...and are connected to the square tubes that are clear in the back corners (vertically, just a corner sticking out of the firebrick) which are feeding the square tubes up top, that the actual secondary air diffusor tubes are connected into...and the baffle lays between. There is also the little "boost air" tube with a 1/4" hole in the center rear (about 4-5" up) that is fed by the same secondary air intake too (I think)
The primary air all comes in the damper/flapper...either through the round hole in the center when closed, or through the larger rectangular holes under the flapper when it is open...this feeds in/down/and around and comes out the gap at the very inside of the firebox opening, right at the top (open door, look up)...this also is your airwash, as the cool air falls in a thin "sheet" down the inside of the glass, and then rolls into the base of the fire.
There is also another 1/4" "boost air" hole, under the bottom of the firebox door opening, right in the center, inside the back of that round tube that sticks out a bit. That has about the same affect as you blowing on the fire. If you ever have minimal hot coals left, and want to do a matchless relight, put the coals right in front of this hole and pile a bit of kindlin there, or "splitter trash", and its off to the races! Always keep the ashes clear of this hole.
Hope that makes sense...this is how the T1 was anyways, and I'm fairly certain the T2 is the same...someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> You have it basically figured out, the two (1.5"?) square holes under each side of the front of the firebox are your secondary air holes...they run in a tube on each side, under the firebox, to the back...and are connected to the square tubes that are clear in the back corners (vertically, just a corner sticking out of the firebrick) which are feeding the square tubes up top, that the actual secondary air diffusor tubes are connected into...and the baffle lays between. There is also the little "boost air" tube with a 1/4" hole in the center rear (about 4-5" up) that is fed by the same secondary air intake too (I think)
> The primary air all comes in the damper/flapper...either through the round hole in the center when closed, or through the larger rectangular holes under the flapper when it is open...this feeds in/down/and around and comes out the gap at the very inside of the firebox opening, right at the top (open door, look up)...this also is your airwash, as the cool air falls in a thin "sheet" down the inside of the glass, and then rolls into the base of the fire.
> There is also another 1/4" "boost air" hole, under the bottom of the firebox door opening, right in the center, inside the back of that round tube that sticks out a bit. That has about the same affect as you blowing on the fire. If you ever have minimal hot coals left, and want to do a matchless relight, put the coals right in front of this hole and pile a bit of kindlin there, or "splitter trash", and its off to the races! Always keep the ashes clear of this hole.
> Hope that makes sense...this is how the T1 was anyways, and I'm fairly certain the T2 is the same...someone please correct me if I'm wrong.


That is my understanding of the air also.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

That helps a lot, brenndatomu -- thank you!

So far I've improved things using two typical mods -- throttling the secondaries a bit (I made two slider doors for those square holes), and the finish nail damper mod (which I'm going to try to improve on once SBI sends me the damper door I ordered to cut some holes in...).   

I've never read of a blower mod to help that front boost air a bit.  Hmmm...

Oh, and I hung a sheet of metal over the door -- I like it.  The house isn't warmer that I can tell, but the furnace room is a couple degrees cooler, and the coaling is slightly improved (all the coals are hot, rather than a bottom layer of charcoal).  I have a piece of IR coated glass for the door on order that I'll install soon; I hope that has a similar effect.


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> I've never read of a blower mod to help that front boost air a bit. Hmmm...


I'm not sure how much it would help, except at the beginning maybe...careful there, some air "injected" there could create some pretty intense temps! (think forge-like temps!)


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> I'm not sure how much it would help, except at the beginning maybe...careful there, some air "injected" there could create some pretty intense temps! (think forge-like temps!)


I have found that a nail just thick enough to hold the damper open a crack is enough.  If I want a longer burn when it's not as cold,  I remove the nail.


----------



## brenndatomu

Paper clip is all it took on mine...on the rare occasion that it was even needed...


----------



## Case1030

Tundra is gonna get a workout this upcoming week. Who else is getting this cold blast of fridged syberian air?


----------



## Gearhead660

Case1030 said:


> Tundra is gonna get a workout this upcoming week. Who else is getting this cold blast of fridged syberian air?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 253036


Getting some of that here early next week also.   Just not as cold... only single digits at night.


----------



## brenndatomu

Somewhat...supposed to get down into the teens next Tues, Wed, Thurs...not terribly cold, but 10-15* colder than it has been...


----------



## Gbawol42

I think I have come to the same realization that a few of you had after burning this furnace for a few months.  I need to hook up some type of cold air return.  My basement is just entirely to warm and I need to get that heat to my living space. 

My question is without contacting the local HVAC company and spending a lot of $$$, do any of you know a good place to purchase the materials I need to do this?  A lot of websites differ huge in price.  Just wanted to see what you guys may have found through your research.   I think I may try the "sucking" off from the ceiling maneuver before really getting into hooking up something more complete.

In hindsight I wish I was closer to my main furnace and I would hook into that, but currently that would be quite a run.


----------



## laynes69

Gbawol42 said:


> I think I have come to the same realization that a few of you had after burning this furnace for a few months.  I need to hook up some type of cold air return.  My basement is just entirely to warm and I need to get that heat to my living space.
> 
> My question is without contacting the local HVAC company and spending a lot of $$$, do any of you know a good place to purchase the materials I need to do this?  A lot of websites differ huge in price.  Just wanted to see what you guys may have found through your research.   I think I may try the "sucking" off from the ceiling maneuver before really getting into hooking up something more complete.
> 
> In hindsight I wish I was closer to my main furnace and I would hook into that, but currently that would be quite a run.


Home Depot sells limited ductwork as well as Menards and probably Lowes and some sheetmetal. When I re-ducted our entire home, I went to a local lumber yard that sold ductwork. Call around, theres bound to be somewhere.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> I think I have come to the same realization that a few of you had after burning this furnace for a few months.  I need to hook up some type of cold air return.  My basement is just entirely to warm and I need to get that heat to my living space.
> 
> My question is without contacting the local HVAC company and spending a lot of $$$, do any of you know a good place to purchase the materials I need to do this?  A lot of websites differ huge in price.  Just wanted to see what you guys may have found through your research.   I think I may try the "sucking" off from the ceiling maneuver before really getting into hooking up something more complete.
> 
> In hindsight I wish I was closer to my main furnace and I would hook into that, but currently that would be quite a run.


Menards is your source...love that place!


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> Menards is your source...love that place!



Yup I agree, and they have 11% off this week.  Looks like they have a reasonably priced cold air drop kit, but they have 20x14 and 20x16.  Looks like our furnace takes 20x15? Just basing that on the actual filter kit that drolet sells.  Might have to go do some measuring to see what I can get to fit without much work.


----------



## brenndatomu

https://www.menards.com/main/tools/hand-tools/shears-snips-bolt-cutters/tool-shop-reg-aviation-tin-snip-3-piece/2448262/p-1444421227830-c-1550852385007.htm?tid=-4939675490637333650&ipos=2
		




			https://www.menards.com/main/tools/hand-tools/shears-snips-bolt-cutters/lenox-reg-5-blade-sheet-metal-crimper/22209c5h/p-1556865079430-c-1550852385007.htm?tid=-4712021091411446404&ipos=1
		




			https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/ductwork/ductwork-tools-installation/masterforce-reg-12-duct-folding-tool/thht-1447/p-1488180037010-c-6833.htm?tid=4706487538380926487&ipos=1
		

That 20" is width, and the 14 or 16" is depth...but the Tundra filter is mounted on its side...so it is narrow but tall.
What I would do is either buy some plain square duct, or that drop kit and adapt it to fit...I would really recommend the tools I linked above to anybody that wants to do some DIY ductwork themselves...it will save you a ton of money! Watch some YouTube vids and learn the basics on ductwork, it is really pretty simple unless you are making some really fancy fittings...and even then its more about a few special tools and knowing how to use them.
I have all the above tools, and a couple other basic pieces, and just did a total revamp on my setup this summer, all DIY.
Took out the old Yukon, moved the Kuuma, added a new oil furnace, and tied it all together to be "automatic" to switch between oil and wood. Used mainly just the above mentioned specialty tools (I did use my FIL's sheet metal brake once, just to make a clean (and quick) bend in a larger piece) all the rest was just common hand tools.
I would think you could buy a piece of sheet metal "panning" (Menards stocks it) and screw that to the blower housing, cut a hole in that, now attach the drop kit (or just plain square duct) to this new larger surface...or many other ways it could be done too I'm sure...


----------



## brenndatomu

This is what I used for the return drop leg on the Kuuma...but it has a larger blower/box though too...


			https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/ductwork/ductwork-pipe/rectangular-metal-duct-pipe-26-gauge/15316489hb/heating-cooling/ductwork/ductwork-pipe/rectangular-metal-duct-pipe-26-gauge/15342450hb/p-1444432235537.htm


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> https://www.menards.com/main/tools/hand-tools/shears-snips-bolt-cutters/tool-shop-reg-aviation-tin-snip-3-piece/2448262/p-1444421227830-c-1550852385007.htm?tid=-4939675490637333650&ipos=2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.menards.com/main/tools/hand-tools/shears-snips-bolt-cutters/lenox-reg-5-blade-sheet-metal-crimper/22209c5h/p-1556865079430-c-1550852385007.htm?tid=-4712021091411446404&ipos=1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.menards.com/main/heating-cooling/ductwork/ductwork-tools-installation/masterforce-reg-12-duct-folding-tool/thht-1447/p-1488180037010-c-6833.htm?tid=4706487538380926487&ipos=1
> 
> 
> That 20" is width, and the 14 or 16" is depth...but the Tundra filter is mounted on its side...so it is narrow but tall.
> What I would do is either buy some plain square duct, or that drop kit and adapt it to fit...I would really recommend the tools I linked above to anybody that wants to do some DIY ductwork themselves...it will save you a ton of money! Watch some YouTube vids and learn the basics on ductwork, it is really pretty simple unless you are making some really fancy fittings...and even then its more about a few special tools and knowing how to use them.
> I have all the above tools, and a couple other basic pieces, and just did a total revamp on my setup this summer, all DIY.
> Took out the old Yukon, moved the Kuuma, added a new oil furnace, and tied it all together to be "automatic" to switch between oil and wood. Used mainly just the above mentioned specialty tools (I did use my FIL's sheet metal brake once, just to make a clean (and quick) bend in a larger piece) all the rest was just common hand tools.
> I would think you could buy a piece of sheet metal "panning" (Menards stocks it) and screw that to the blower housing, cut a hole in that, now attach the drop kit (or just plain square duct) to this new larger surface...or many other ways it could be done too I'm sure...



Thanks for the advice and links.  Have more to research now.


----------



## Getwidit

Case1030 said:


> Lol it seems perfect to hook onto the ash plug. I'd much rather it come with a proper rake to make bringing the coals to the front easier. But yes I see your point.


Mine came with 2 tools one with a hook and one to clean the smoke flue. It's a semi circle. I just flip that upside down and it works great to clean the ashes.


----------



## Getwidit

Woodythewoodhunter said:


> I think i've had some luck with getting better temperatures  from the problem I walk talking about above with a very simple mod.  I basically suspended a old towner fan horizontal in the basement, right up by the floor joists (ceiling of basement, somewhat close to a grate), pointing towards the floor.  Stiring the warm/cold air up in the basement seems to have helped with the intake temperatures - as the intake is right where the cold air would have sat,  and now hopefully the fan is stirring up temperatures in basement a bit.  cost = $0 for a bit of an improvement.


My basement is almost always warmer than the rest of the house. To really increase the first and second floor temps it's usually in the beginning of the burn when it's real hot. Then when its shut down basically it's just maintaining the temp what has been achieved. Usually after I shut down it will go up 2 to 4 degrees.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Mine came with 2 tools one with a hook and one to clean the smoke flue. It's a semi circle. I just flip that upside down and it works great to clean the ashes.


Oh, they don't come with the ash shovel anymore? They used to come with a really nice long handled ash shovel too


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> Oh, they don't come with the ash shovel anymore? They used to come with a really nice long handled ash shovel too



Nope, I did not get ash shovel.  That would have been nice since the one I have is the standard size and kinda short for this firebox.


----------



## KC Matt

I can't imagine operating one of these wood furnaces without a cold air return hooked into the duct work or at the very least back into the heat envelope.  It would never work to my satisfaction.

Mine is attached to the regular HVAC return via two 10" round ducts and a little manifold my sheetmetal contractor buddy built in 10 minutes.  I think the total cost was a couple hundred dollars.

Edit: The couple hundred dollars was to connect the supply and return ducts, all in.  That's 4) 8" adjustable elbows, 6) 10" adjustable elbows, 8 starter collars, and the flat work.  The little manifold was made of scrap and cost me nothing but my buddy would build them all day long for $50.


----------



## KC Matt

Gbawol42 said:


> Yup I agree, and they have 11% off this week.  Looks like they have a reasonably priced cold air drop kit, but they have 20x14 and 20x16.  Looks like our furnace takes 20x15? Just basing that on the actual filter kit that drolet sells.  Might have to go do some measuring to see what I can get to fit without much work.


The bigger filter the better; my gas furnace is 20x25x4 and it's great changing it twice a year.  My drolet is 20x14x1 and must be changed every month or so.  As for your return duct, I'd do what's convenient and not worry too much about the duct size.  The Tundra blower is a low cfm weak unit and any reasonable connection would suffice.  I used two 10" returns but one would be fine.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> The Tundra blower is low cfm weak unit and any reasonable connection would suffice. I used two 10" returns but one would be fine.


General rule of thumb is that you want your return 20% larger than your supply...so ~120 sq inches would be minimum for return duct on a T1...203 sq inches for a T2. 
FYI, a 8" pipe is 50 sq in.
 A 10" pipe is 79 sq in.
12" pipe is 113 sq in.
14" is 154 sq in.
16" is 201 sq in.


----------



## Mojappa

KC Matt said:


> I can't imagine operating one of these wood furnaces without a cold air return hooked into the duct work or at the very least back into the heat envelope.  It would never work to my satisfaction.
> 
> Mine is attached to the regular HVAC return via two 10" round ducts and a little manifold my sheetmetal contractor buddy built in 10 minutes.  I think the total cost was a couple hundred dollars.
> 
> Edit: The couple hundred dollars was to connect the supply and return ducts, all in.  That's 4) 8" adjustable elbows, 6) 10" adjustable elbows, 8 starter collars, and the flat work.  The little manifold was made of scrap and cost me nothing but my buddy would build them all day long for $50.


When your options are run it without a return hooked up yet or be cold while your heat pump fails to keep up you’d probably run it. Clearly it’s not running optimally but still way better than the heat pump and way better than the old Fisher in the basement. Lol


----------



## CYOUNG7938

I want to thank brenndatomu for helping me along the process of installing his old Drolet Tundra. Its been an awesome addition as an add on supplemental furnace!


----------



## 3fordasho

CYOUNG7938 said:


> I want to thank brenndatomu for helping me along the process of installing his old Drolet Tundra. Its been an awesome addition as an add on supplemental furnace!


Nice clean looking install.  Lots of vertical on the ducts and flue are a plus too.  If only they came from the factory with the add on controls ;-)


----------



## CYOUNG7938

3fordasho said:


> Nice clean looking install.  Lots of vertical on the ducts and flue are a plus too.  If only they came from the factory with the add on controls ;-)



So far I have had very good furnace response to the set up. I get a constant .05 on the manometer with no adjustment needed other than adding a few washers. I have a 30 plus foot flue chimney the contractor installed when the house was built last year.  This was my first experience with a wood furnace (I had a drolet wood burning stove in our first house) so this was a learning experience with ductwork etc. I had to install volume dampers on a bunch of duct around the furnace to cut back the air flow and to even out flow entirely (house is a ranch).  I wish I could have done 45's on the flue but this has worked very well. No issues with draft to start fires and not much smoke. So far so good!


----------



## brenndatomu

CYOUNG7938 said:


> I want to thank brenndatomu for helping me along the process of installing his old Drolet Tundra. Its been an awesome addition as an add on supplemental furnace!


Your welcome...its been pretty easy really, you pick up on things quickly. I'm glad its working out well for you!


3fordasho said:


> Nice clean looking install.  Lots of vertical on the ducts and flue are a plus too.  If only they came from the factory with the add on controls ;-)


I agree! And if you like that, then you should see the stone walkway he put in right before installing the Tundra!
I am a little jealous of all the room there...especially the headroom...low ceiling height, a small furnace room, and large complicated duct system make any changes I want to do a pain in the rear!
I guess I should do an update in my Kuuma thread...this past summer I finally tore the old Yukon wood/coal/oil out, installed the Kuuma in its permanent home, and tied a new to me oil furnace into the system too...took me most of the summer to do, and there was months (years) of prior planning went in to it all, on top of the physical part of the swap.
Fortunately the old Yook found a good home with someone that was looking for a nice wood/coal/oil furnace, and they were thrilled to find this one.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

That looks to my novice eyes like galvanized air duct running out of the back of the furnace into the chimney.  Is it?


----------



## CYOUNG7938

Socratic Monologue said:


> That looks to my novice eyes like galvanized air duct running out of the back of the furnace into the chimney.  Is it?



LOL no no..... That stainless stove pipe. I wanted something better than black steel.


----------



## Case1030

Just spoke to a Drolet sales representative yesterday. Apparently they are set to have the new tundra3/ heatmax3 2020 certification in the coming new year. No specific date announced yet other than there is a new model number logged into the sales end.

I'm excited to see what they come up with, since I'm considering putting a wood furnace in my new shop.


----------



## brenndatomu

I will go on record here...I bet it's basically the same furnace, but they actively monitor and control the firebox temp using a stepper motor on the damper...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

brenndatomu said:


> I will go on record here...I bet it's basically the same furnace, but they actively monitor and control the firebox temp using a stepper motor on the damper...


If that comes to pass, I'm going to be disappointed that I didn't wait for the T3.  That would be a nice feature on this furnace regardless of EPA regulations.


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I will go on record here...I bet it's basically the same furnace, but they actively monitor and control the firebox temp using a stepper motor on the damper...


I doubt they be able to do a retro kit for their old furnaces since it would require some kind of sensor to be in the firebox. 

Doesn't the Kuuma have an O2 sensor in the furnace somewhere ?


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I doubt they be able to do a retro kit for their old furnaces since it would require some kind of sensor to be in the firebox.
> 
> Doesn't the Kuuma have an O2 sensor in the furnace somewhere ?


Yeah and that would be too easy...making something that was easily retrofitted...that's what Yukon claimed to be working on a few years back...a "2020" firebox that could be retrofitted to the older furnaces...guess it didnt work out, they seem to be just selling the old models to Canada, and parts to the USA now.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> Doesn't the Kuuma have an O2 sensor in the furnace somewhere ?


No, thermocouple


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Would the temp probe have to be in the firebox, or would the flue temp work?


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> Would the temp probe have to be in the firebox, or would the flue temp work?


Well, we use the flue temp for our aftermarket temp controller mod, but actual firebox temp would be much better.
Or if you could use an O2 sensor, probably better yet.


----------



## CYOUNG7938

Added some more technology to the Tundra. I call it my bluetooth temperature monitoring device. Works awesome. You can set temp alarms for highs and lows.  You can also review the history of that burn in graph form. I once i tie the tundra into my cold air return I'll put a prob in that ductwork so i can monitor what temperature air is being recycled. Pretty cool.


----------



## JRHAWK9

CYOUNG7938 said:


> Added some more technology to the Tundra. I call it my bluetooth temperature monitoring device. Works awesome. You can set temp alarms for highs and lows.  You can also review the history of that burn in graph form. I once i tie the tundra into my cold air return I'll put a prob in that ductwork so i can monitor what temperature air is being recycled. Pretty cool.



sweet!  I'm doing the -SAME THING- but with a BBQ thermometer (Thermoworks Smoke and Gateway).  What equipment do you have?


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> I will go on record here...I bet it's basically the same furnace, but they actively monitor and control the firebox temp using a stepper motor on the damper...



I think your correct. That's really all it would take. It sure would nice to have burn setting for cold and mild temperatures. I just hope they keep the nice picture window. 

It would be really neat if one of these manufactures put the time into developing an integrated thermostat that could auto detect temperature gradients in the house to accurately adjust heat output a house requires. Maybe one day...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Case1030 said:


> I just hope they keep the nice picture window.


Not me.  I hope they upgrade it.  I replaced my glass with Robax IR glass, and it keeps my furnace room 5-7 degrees cooler than with the stock window.  I imagine that heat is going into the ducts,  since my flue temp is controlled so it isn't just going out the chimney.


----------



## CYOUNG7938

JRHAWK9 said:


> sweet!  I'm doing the -SAME THING- but with a BBQ thermometer (Thermoworks Smoke and Gateway).  What equipment do you have?


Mine is actually a bluetooth bbq thermometer from Amazon...i was just trying to make it sound cool.   Haha it works really good


----------



## Case1030

Socratic Monologue said:


> Not me.  I hope they upgrade it.  I replaced my glass with Robax IR glass, and it keeps my furnace room 5-7 degrees cooler than with the stock window.  I imagine that heat is going into the ducts,  since my flue temp is controlled so it isn't just going out the chimney.



All depends where you have the furnace located. I have mine in the sunroom (house entrance)... sure it gets pretty warm in there but I also dry all my laundry on clothes hangers and store 1.5-2 cords of wood. It helps to keep the windows moisture free and dry everything out nice (including the snow covered wood). 

In a basement or room that doesn't get used much it would come in handy having a solid door without glass. 

I am curious to know if the IR glass increases the firebox tempurature and combustion efficiency. Does it reflect the heat?


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Case1030 said:


> I am curious to know if the IR glass increases the firebox tempurature and combustion efficiency. Does it reflect the heat?



It does reflect the heat back into the firebox. This is plainly obvious by standing in front of the glass when burning, It is a night and day difference. It also claims to reduce soot on the glass -- I can confirm that this is also clearly (pun intended) true.

I assume many/most modern woodstoves have IR glass on the door; our Hearthstone does.  Supposedly there are improvements in combustion with a hotter firebox -- hopefully someone can chime in and explain exactly how that works.

I don't have any data on where that heat is going in my system, or on combustion efficiency.  My damper is currently (and has been) set to open and close at 300F/500F in the flue, so the heat isn't going up the flue.  By process of elimination I'm concluding that the heat is going into the hot air ducts directly, or causing the furnace to run damped down more frequently and thus using less wood.

If anyone else tries this, I should mention that the glass in my T2 was exactly 1/8 inch smaller in both height and width than is listed on SBI's parts list (SBI lists 10 7/8 x 13 1/8; I measured the stock glass at 10 3/4 x 13).  I ordered glass based on the parts list, and it did fit.   I ordered from these folks, who were great, and are the only custom cutters of IR glass I could find in North America: 





						ROBAX fireplace glass
					

ROBAX fireplace and wood stove replacement glass. Glass-Ceramic withstands high termperatures.



					www.tecniglas.com


----------



## brenndatomu

You may have posted it already, I don't recall, but if you don't mind, what did that piece of glass set ya back @Socratic Monologue ?


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> You may have posted it already, I don't recall, but if you don't mind, what did that piece of glass set ya back @Socratic Monologue ?



Curious on this as well


----------



## sloeffle

Socratic Monologue said:


> Not me.  I hope they upgrade it.  I replaced my glass with Robax IR glass, and it keeps my furnace room 5-7 degrees cooler than with the stock window.  I imagine that heat is going into the ducts,  since my flue temp is controlled so it isn't just going out the chimney.


My wood furnace is in my basement. We have R10 insulation on the basement walls and the joist bays are spray foamed down to the first block with closed cell insulation. I turn off all of the ducts to my basement and the heat from the furnace ( the front glass mostly ) is what keeps my basement warm when I'm running the wood furnace. I'm able to "push" more heat into the living space of my house since I can turn the ducts off. The heat from the front glass then indirectly makes my hot water too.  

Personally I like being able to look into the firebox to see if I need to reload or if the secondaries are going good. I think everyone's situation is different.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

brenndatomu said:


> You may have posted it already, I don't recall, but if you don't mind, what did that piece of glass set ya back @Socratic Monologue ?


$60 US for the glass, and another $65 to ship it.   Much less than buying another piece of stock glass from the manufacturer, so I'm going this route for any future needs.


----------



## Getwidit

This has probably been touched on a million times. When do you guys check ur draft? After u close it down and the secondarie have mellowed out?
Also someone posted a link for menards duct work start off for the cold air return which I cant find. 
I'm installing a barometric this week and i want to order the duct for the return. Thanks in advance. Merry christmass


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Getwidit said:


> This has probably been touched on a million times. When do you guys check ur draft? After u close it down and the secondarie have mellowed out?


You leave the manometer hooked up all the time.  Use a piece of brake line to insert into the flue so the hose doesn't melt.


----------



## Gbawol42

Still dialing in this heatmax.  I am miles from where I started and a thank you to all you guys on this forum for that. 

Biggest upgrade and difference maker was getting the return off the basement floor and to the ceiling.  I used two 12" flex duct connected to two 12x20" return air boxes, setup near the front of the heatmax to catch that heat coming up from the door and rising to the ceiling.  This also was nice because it also lets me use air filters now.  Return air went from a pretty steady 65f to around 75-85f from the ceiling.  No more blower on and off the whole burn cycle, it now stays on for the majority of the burn cycle.  Basement temp has dropped dramatically, which makes me believe that the heat is now upstairs.  Picture will explain this setup better.

I now am able to heat and maintain house temp down to 25-30f.  Colder than that it just won't keep up.  Register temps are around 95-100f during the hot parts of the burn cycle.  Just wondering what you think should be my next thing to tackle? 

I am using my basement door, that I cut the top off of, as my return to the basement.  Do you think this could be an issue? I have thought maybe put the top of the door back on and cut a vent into the bottom of the door instead.  Maybe pull colder air off the floor was my thought. 

I haven't really checked static pressure of the ducts, but I can feel the air coming out pretty good. 

I am thinking some options are:

1.  Mess with the return part of the system, either the basement door or the piping itself.
2. Maybe insulate my ducts and heatmax plenum downstairs?
3. Look into insulating basement with some foam board?

Or maybe I am at the max for this furnace?  Are my register temps similar to you guys? 

I am getting around 10 hours of burn time on a full load, setting my temp controller to open at 275f and close at 350f.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> I am using my basement door, that I cut the top off of, as my return to the basement.  Do you think this could be an issue? I have thought maybe put the top of the door back on and cut a vent into the bottom of the door instead.  Maybe pull colder air off the floor was my thought.



IMO, you should open up the lowest part of the floor level you are heating.  The way I see it now, cold air, on that level, needs to build up to the opening before spilling over and down the steps.  Not sure if it will help you much, but it won't make things any worse.  We just keep our basement door cracked open about 4" or so with a hook and loop latch.  We also have a cat access arch cutout at the bottom which also helps.









						Everbilt 6 in. Black Decorative Hook and Eye 20494 - The Home Depot
					

This Everbilt 6 in. Heavy Duty Decorative Hook and Eye is ideal for surface applications on doors, gates and sheds. Decorative look. Easy to install.



					www.homedepot.com


----------



## Gearhead660

Gbawol42 said:


> Still dialing in this heatmax.  I am miles from where I started and a thank you to all you guys on this forum for that.
> 
> Biggest upgrade and difference maker was getting the return off the basement floor and to the ceiling.  I used two 12" flex duct connected to two 12x20" return air boxes, setup near the front of the heatmax to catch that heat coming up from the door and rising to the ceiling.  This also was nice because it also lets me use air filters now.  Return air went from a pretty steady 65f to around 75-85f from the ceiling.  No more blower on and off the whole burn cycle, it now stays on for the majority of the burn cycle.  Basement temp has dropped dramatically, which makes me believe that the heat is now upstairs.  Picture will explain this setup better.
> 
> I now am able to heat and maintain house temp down to 25-30f.  Colder than that it just won't keep up.  Register temps are around 95-100f during the hot parts of the burn cycle.  Just wondering what you think should be my next thing to tackle?
> 
> I am using my basement door, that I cut the top off of, as my return to the basement.  Do you think this could be an issue? I have thought maybe put the top of the door back on and cut a vent into the bottom of the door instead.  Maybe pull colder air off the floor was my thought.
> 
> I haven't really checked static pressure of the ducts, but I can feel the air coming out pretty good.
> 
> I am thinking some options are:
> 
> 1.  Mess with the return part of the system, either the basement door or the piping itself.
> 2. Maybe insulate my ducts and heatmax plenum downstairs?
> 3. Look into insulating basement with some foam board?
> 
> Or maybe I am at the max for this furnace?  Are my register temps similar to you guys?
> 
> I am getting around 10 hours of burn time on a full load, setting my temp controller to open at 275f and close at 350f.


With the temp controller, are those internal flue temps?  Do you have the temp controller active for just the first hour?  At what temp is the blower kicking on?    Jealous of all that space you have...


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> Or maybe I am at the max for this furnace?


Doubtful, but hard to say without knowing what the houses heat load is...what were your fossil fuel heat bills like? How much gas/oil/electric?


----------



## Gbawol42

So many responses already!  Let's see if I can hit all the questions.



JRHAWK9 said:


> IMO, you should open up the lowest part of the floor level you are heating.  The way I see it now, cold air, on that level, needs to build up to the opening before spilling over and down the steps.  Not sure if it will help you much, but it won't make things any worse.  We just keep our basement door cracked open about 4" or so with a hook and loop latch.  We also have a cat access arch cutout at the bottom which also helps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everbilt 6 in. Black Decorative Hook and Eye 20494 - The Home Depot
> 
> 
> This Everbilt 6 in. Heavy Duty Decorative Hook and Eye is ideal for surface applications on doors, gates and sheds. Decorative look. Easy to install.
> 
> 
> 
> www.homedepot.com



Good idea with the hook!  I was just leaving the door open before but people (wife) kept walking by and closing it.  I may try this today.  Still in the high 30's till monday so it's going to be a couple days before I can really test if stuff changes.



Gearhead660 said:


> With the temp controller, are those internal flue temps?  Do you have the temp controller active for just the first hour?  At what temp is the blower kicking on?    Jealous of all that space you have...



Set up on the timer for an hour to get things going, then those parameters pretty much take over after the secondary burn is done.  It's what my alarm relay is set at.  It will usually cycle a few times probably 3-4 hours in, then finally stay on and burn the coals down.

Blower is stock setup, 125f on and 110f off.



brenndatomu said:


> Doubtful, but hard to say without knowing what the houses heat load is...what were your fossil fuel heat bills like? How much gas/oil/electric?



When I bought the home the previous owners used between 1000-1200 gal of propane, learned this from propane company.  I never used only propane, I was burning a pellet stove plus the propane.  But wasnt happy with heat distribution and cold floors, thus the furnace.  I maybe burned 5 pallets and pellets and 2-300gal or propane in a season, but the house was much colder with the pellet stove running.  Upstairs was almost 5-8 degrees colder than main floor.

I really feel this stove is putting the heat out, and I have a heat distribution issue.  Just wanted some advice because most of my issue cost a lot to remedy.  Except the basement door, which I said I may do later today and test that out.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> Good idea with the hook!  I was just leaving the door open before but people (wife) kept walking by and closing it.  I may try this today.  Still in the high 30's till monday so it's going to be a couple days before I can really test if stuff changes.



We leave the cat food on the steps, so I had to find a way to keep the door open but to keep the dogs from eating the cat food.  This did it.
I know, the temps suck for this time of year.  I would love for winter temps to be low teens/single digits at night and low 20's during the day.  Enough to keep things frozen for all the winter activities, but not so cold where one can't go out and enjoy it.



Gbawol42 said:


> When I bought the home the previous owners used between 1000-1200 gal of propane


Depending on what the previous owner kept the thermostat at, he used a bit less than we used to  use a year.....we used 1,200 - 1,400 gal a year keeping the house at 68°.  ~100 gal of that went to the clothes drier and water heater.   Either way, it should be well within the capabilities of the furnace, I'd think.


----------



## Copperking

I am looking at buying the heat max next year. It says in the owner's manual that it takes a 6 inch flue pipe. I have a 5 inch double lined stainless steel one in now. Can I reduce it down and still be ok? Do I need a barometric damper or run straight pipe from the stove to the chimney?


----------



## brenndatomu

Copperking said:


> I am looking at buying the heat max next year. It says in the owner's manual that it takes a 6 inch flue pipe. I have a 5 inch double lined stainless steel one in now. Can I reduce it down and still be ok? Do I need a barometric damper or run straight pipe from the stove to the chimney?


You might get it to work right with 5"...I think @laynes69  has his Caddy on a very tall 5" (or 5.5"?)...but there's a good chance you'll need 6" IMO. Remenber, the chimney is the engine that drives the stove...use a low  HP chimney, get low HP results (most likely)
5" is only 19.625 sq inches of area, 6" is 28.26", that's a big difference percentage wise...and when you see 5" pipe next to 6", it even looks much smaller (my oil furnace uses a 5" flue)
And yes, unless you have a short chimney, or one that just drafts poorly, you will need a barometric damper.


----------



## Copperking

brenndatomu said:


> You might get it to work right with 5"...I think @laynes69  has his Caddy on a very tall 5" (or 5.5"?)...but there's a good chance you'll need 6" IMO. Remenber, the chimney is the engine that drives the stove...use a low  HP chimney, get low HP results (most likely)
> 5" is only 19.625 sq inches of area, 6" is 28.26", that's a big difference percentage wise...and when you see 5" pipe next to 6", it even looks much smaller (my oil furnace uses a 5" flue)
> And yes, unless you have a short chimney, or one that just drafts poorly, you will need a barometric damper.


My liner is 30 ft long and when we installed it I made sure it was doubled lined. It pulls a good draft now with my old newmac furnace I have now. I contacted drolet and they said they hadn't tested a 6 to 5 reduction. But he thinks it will still work fine.


----------



## laynes69

Yeah, 5 inch might be pushing it. I have a 32' 5.5" rigid stainless liner in our chimney and draft has never been an issue. I think anything below 5.5 and you will be dealing with smoke spillage when the door is open, since the loading doors are a good portion of the firebox. SBI cleared me with the 5.5" liner since it was very tall and rigid.


----------



## KC Matt

Socratic Monologue said:


> If that comes to pass, I'm going to be disappointed that I didn't wait for the T3.  That would be a nice feature on this furnace regardless of EPA regulations.



I'm not sure what the current T2 costs, but my T1 cost something like 1100 and the T2 then came out at close to 2k with the only real change being the electronics.  The T3 could be closer to 2500.   Can you add a controller to open the damper on the T2?


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> When I bought the home the previous owners used between 1000-1200 gal of propane, learned this from propane company. I never used only propane, I was burning a pellet stove plus the propane. But wasnt happy with heat distribution and cold floors, thus the furnace. I maybe burned 5 pallets and pellets and 2-300gal or propane in a season, but the house was much colder with the pellet stove running. Upstairs was almost 5-8 degrees colder than main floor.
> 
> I really feel this stove is putting the heat out, and I have a heat distribution issue. Just wanted some advice because most of my issue cost a lot to remedy. Except the basement door, which I said I may do later today and test that out


Sounds to me like the T2 should be able to handle heating your house to a lower outdoor temp than that...I agree, I'd be working on maximizing the distribution/delivery as you said...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

KC Matt said:


> I'm not sure what the current T2 costs, but my T1 cost something like 1100 and the T2 then came out at close to 2k with the only real change being the electronics.  The T3 could be closer to 2500.   Can you add a controller to open the damper on the T2?


Yes, you can, and some of us have, and it is cheap and simple.  It is only an 'open/closed' damper though; a stepper motor would allow the damper to open any amount necessary to maintain a tight setpoint of whatever parameter it tracks (flue temps, firebox temps, O2 content).   

I looked and couldn't find a stepper motor or 0-5v controllable device that was both affordable and possible for someone of my limited skills to add to the T2 in a safe and reliable way, so factory solution to this would be worth a lot, I think.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> I'm not sure what the current T2 costs, but my T1 cost something like 1100 and the T2 then came out at close to 2k with the only real change being the electronics.  The T3 could be closer to 2500.   Can you add a controller to open the damper on the T2?


Yeah T1 to T2 is pretty much just the fabrication changes to address the cracking, and then obviously the electronics...and it includes the plenum/duct take-offs now too.
List price on the T2 is $2500. I bet the T3 goes 3 bills, or over.
Steel/material prices have jumped up too...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

I paid $2k less 11% at Menards ten months ago.  Menards doesn't list the T2 on their website currently.

A T3 with a stepper damper would be worth $500 more than the stock T2, IMO.


----------



## Mojappa

Let the furnace cool down so as to not cook myself out of the house (temps over 60 outside yesterday) and decided to open the door to the heat exchanger tubes. This is after burning for about 2 months. It’s very light and dry, kinda powdery when you touch it. Does this seem like a normal amount of build up? All the random splits I’ve tested this season have been around 16%


----------



## Gearhead660

Mojappa said:


> Let the furnace cool down so as to not cook myself out of the house (temps over 60 outside yesterday) and decided to open the door to the heat exchanger tubes. This is after burning for about 2 months. It’s very light and dry, kinda powdery when you touch it. Does this seem like a normal amount of build up? All the random splits I’ve tested this season have been around 16%


That looks similar to mine after a couple months.   I have been trying to clean mine every month or so.


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> Let the furnace cool down so as to not cook myself out of the house (temps over 60 outside yesterday) and decided to open the door to the heat exchanger tubes. This is after burning for about 2 months. It’s very light and dry, kinda powdery when you touch it. Does this seem like a normal amount of build up? All the random splits I’ve tested this season have been around 16%


Yup, looks about right...I used to hit mine every week or so though...if you monitor your plenum and stack temps, it makes a difference that is noticeable...and why not, it only takes about a minute for each tube! So easy to clean...


----------



## maple1

Doesn't take much ash on tubes at all to insulate them from the heat.


----------



## KC Matt

I suspect the cracking issue with the T1 was mostly -if not entirely- caused by over firing.  Without an automatic damper controller the options are open and closed and the instructions had little advice about how to operate the furnace.  The instructions suggested using a thermostat installed in the house which is just wrong.  

Mine is now 4  years old and has no cracks and little wear to the fire brick.  It's had control boxes since new and the damper closes between 92f and 102f at the supply coupler,  and the firebox is never blistering hot. 

It will be interesting to see if the T3 is offered in the US given the new regs.


----------



## brenndatomu

KC Matt said:


> I suspect the cracking issue with the T1 was mostly -if not entirely- caused by over firing.


Some of them for sure...but not all. I installed my sisters T1 new and it has all the updates, and a temp controller from the first fire...it is starting to crack.


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> Menards doesn't list the T2 on their website currently.


Our local store has sold all their wood heaters from the display...they have never done that before. Not sure if they have all new stuff coming for their "2020 certified" display next year, or they are just not going to stock any wood heaters anymore?


----------



## CYOUNG7938

Made a fancy wood coal rake


----------



## Getwidit

This is my first time cleaning this year. Y'alls conversation got my interest. Glad i did. It's been since October. Also not real happy the cleaning tool doesnt fit into the smaller tubes on the side. Lucky I have a small flu cleaner for my maple evaporator. Also a great recycle use for those pop corn tins we get for Christmas... ash bucket!


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Also not real happy the cleaning tool doesnt fit into the smaller tubes on the side


It doesn't? They used to...


----------



## Getwidit

I'm thinking because it's a heat pack. They went smaller


----------



## brenndatomu

It fit perfectly in the side tubes, but was kinda small for the center tube...still worked well enough though...you have to flip the handle on its side to do the side tubes as I recall...


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> I'm thinking because it's a heat pack. They went smaller


Well that's silly! This is a billion dollar manufacturing facility and they can't make a scraper to fit? I think I'd call em...maybe it's the wrong tool....


----------



## Gearhead660

Getwidit said:


> This is my first time cleaning this year. Y'alls conversation got my interest. Glad i did. It's been since October. Also not real happy the cleaning tool doesnt fit into the smaller tubes on the side. Lucky I have a small flu cleaner for my maple evaporator. Also a great recycle use for those pop corn tins we get for Christmas... ash bucket!


I have no issues cleaning the side tubes.  They didn't change the tool, did they?


----------



## Getwidit

Do you have a heat pack? The tool does seem alittle small for the center tube. I assume they just shrunk the side tubes on this unit for what ever reason compared to the tundra and heatmax.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Gearhead660 said:


> I have no issues cleaning the side tubes.  They didn't change the tool, did they?


Heatpack and T2 are different furnaces, sounds like different hx tube sizes.


----------



## sloeffle

Aren't the tubes smaller on the side for all of their furnaces ?  The tubes are smaller on the sides on my Caddy.

EDIT: The side tubes on @Getwidit furnace look to be smaller than what is on my Caddy. That is probably why the "standard" tool doesn't fit. Kinda lame that they don't give you a tool that will work on your furnace.


----------



## Gearhead660

Getwidit said:


> Do you have a heat pack? The tool does seem alittle small for the center tube. I assume they just shrunk the side tubes on this unit for what ever reason compared to the tundra and heatmax.


I have a Tundra 2.  The outside tubes are smaller than the center, the tool is sized for them I believe.  Is a bit small for the center but works fine.


----------



## sloeffle

Heat exchanger tubes on the Caddy. They definitely look bigger than the ones on the heat pack.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> I assume they just shrunk the side tubes on this unit for what ever reason compared to the tundra and heatmax.


I bet they accidently gave you a Tundra/Caddy sized tool instead of the one for the Heatpak...if not, then that is just lame.


----------



## Gbawol42

Getwidit said:


> Also a great recycle use for those pop corn tins we get for Christmas... ash bucket!



Omg great idea!  I was in need of a ash bucket


----------



## Getwidit

What do you guys aim for with draft for you flue? The drolet manual says .04 to .06 which seems low to me? That's pretty much exactly what I'm getting. I feel like my unit could use some more air to keep secondarie going? They seem kind of low for me. I'm burning standing dead red elm which my moisture meter is saying 20%? I thought maybe I wasnt getting enough draft. I installed a barometric damper today. And tested my draft. Turns out I didnt really need one. And I'm coming to the conclusion that my wood is to wet and my meter isnt very accurate?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Gearhead660

Do you have a small nail keeping the damper open slightly?


----------



## Getwidit

Not at the moment I was worried before todo that because I didn't have the BD but now that I do I think I will do it more often. Hopefully by next season my wood will be under 20%.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Getwidit

And I've also had loads of wood that were super dry and burned really hot. The burned down really quick. I was worried that if I ended up with drier wood than I thought and did the nail the fire would get out of control.. now I have my BD installed so I have more piece of mind. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## brenndatomu

Wet wood will act that way...and elm doesn't usually produce great secondaries...likes to coal up real well though!
I ran -0.04/5 mainly. Might tweak it up to 6 if it's real cold and need to burn wood a little faster...


----------



## Getwidit

Yea I noticed that it loves insane chunky coals. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Socratic Monologue

I ran my baro at .06 for a while, then jacked it up to .08 for a couple days -- I didn't really notice a difference one way or the other, so I put it back to .06.   When set to .08, it will reach that easily, but it didn't seem to affect the performance noticeably.

On coals: I recently drilled out the zipper on my T2.  It measured a bit under 1/4" (something metric, I assume), so I drilled it out to 1/4".  That was perhaps a bit of reduction in coaling, so I drilled it out to 5/16.  It really burns off the coals, now; I have very little coals after 8 hours, whereas before I would have had a good solid layer to light off of.  Drilling it 9/32" might have been the sweet spot for me, but I think 5/16" is going to work.

Drilling out the zipper is a pretty permanent mod, so be cautious with this, please.


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> I recently drilled out the zipper on my T2


Zipper?
Are you talking about the boost air port, center, below the door?


----------



## Socratic Monologue

brenndatomu said:


> Zipper?
> Are you talking about the boost air port, center, below the door?


Yes.


----------



## Gearhead660

What does everyone use to supply power to their mypin temp controller?


----------



## brenndatomu

I hooked into the incoming power of the Tundra...before any of the controls...assuming you have a 120v mypin...


----------



## Gearhead660

brenndatomu said:


> I hooked into the incoming power of the Tundra...before any of the controls...assuming you have a 120v mypin...


Ok.  Thanks.  It says 90-260v ac/dc  for supply power.  Figured 120 was fine but wanted to be sure.


----------



## Getwidit

brenndatomu said:


> Wet wood will act that way...and elm doesn't usually produce great secondaries...likes to coal up real well though!
> I ran -0.04/5 mainly. Might tweak it up to 6 if it's real cold and need to burn wood a little faster...


 Once I close the stove down it goes right to .5 .4 and when it gets 4 or 5 hrs in it's even lower when theres not much secondaries. I dont think I needed the bd. Besides when I first burn with the damper open she was up to 1.2 before the bd. So I put it to .7.


----------



## brenndatomu

Getwidit said:


> Once I close the stove down it goes right to .5 .4 and when it gets 4 or 5 hrs in it's even lower when theres not much secondaries. I dont think I needed the bd. Besides when I first burn with the damper open she was up to 1.2 before the bd. So I put it to .7.


Maybe I'm just not following you here, but if it goes up to -0.12" while heating up the firebox, then it sure sounds to me like a baro is needed. 
I wouldn't take the baro out...if you feel like you don't need it, just cover the opening with HD aluminum foil...then when you have a real cold or windy day where the draft is running sky high, or very erratic (and those days will come) you can pull the foil off and let the baro do its thing.
And yes, any pipe damper/regulator will only control the peak draft, not the lows...as the fire burns down the draft will slowly drop...how fast it drops is a function of your individual furnace model/wood type and quality/chimney/home/location/weather/etc...


----------



## KC Matt

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes.


Yikes.


----------



## Jpops

I installed the Tundra heatmax this fall and have been overall pretty happy with it. But looking for some advice on extending burn times. I am burning well seasoned birch, moisture meter reads 10-13% on the inside of my splits. I have not measured draft, and not sure how to since I run double wall pipe, but I don’t believe I’m over drafting. Typically my slow burns are only lasting 2-3 hours And leave hot coals, but not enough to keep the blower cycling. Am I not adding enough wood initially? How full should I pack the firebox once I have a good fire going? Also is there anyway to adjust at what temp the blower kicks on or off?


----------



## Socratic Monologue

KC Matt said:


> Yikes.


Why?


----------



## Gearhead660

Jpops said:


> I installed the Tundra heatmax this fall and have been overall pretty happy with it. But looking for some advice on extending burn times. I am burning well seasoned birch, moisture meter reads 10-13% on the inside of my splits. I have not measured draft, and not sure how to since I run double wall pipe, but I don’t believe I’m over drafting. Typically my slow burns are only lasting 2-3 hours And leave hot coals, but not enough to keep the blower cycling. Am I not adding enough wood initially? How full should I pack the firebox once I have a good fire going? Also is there anyway to adjust at what temp the blower kicks on or off?


If you are looking for a long burn, pack it full.  How long are you leaving the damper open?  There is no way to adjust the blower setpoints.  others have installed resistors on the temp probe to essentially lower the temp when the blower turns on/off.


----------



## Jpops

Gearhead660 said:


> If you are looking for a long burn, pack it full.  How long are you leaving the damper open?  There is no way to adjust the blower setpoints.  others have installed resistors on the temp probe to essentially lower the temp when the blower turns on/off.



I start with 4-5 small 2-3” splits with kindling  leaving the damper open for probably 30-40 min or until these splits have almost turned to coals but are still burning quick yellow flames. My  problem might be I’m not packing the firebox full enough. I’ve been a little apprehensive about over firing. I’ve only been tossing in 4-5 larger 5-6” splits.


----------



## Gbawol42

Jpops said:


> I start with 4-5 small 2-3” splits with kindling  leaving the damper open for probably 30-40 min or until these splits have almost turned to coals but are still burning quick yellow flames. My  problem might be I’m not packing the firebox full enough. I’ve been a little apprehensive about over firing. I’ve only been tossing in 4-5 larger 5-6” splits.



As long as your draft is in check you can pack the firebox and let her rip.  As long as the damper is closed the fire is nice and controlled.  

These stoves burn better the more wood you have in them.  You get longer secondary burns that way.


----------



## Gearhead660

Jpops said:


> I start with 4-5 small 2-3” splits with kindling  leaving the damper open for probably 30-40 min or until these splits have almost turned to coals but are still burning quick yellow flames. My  problem might be I’m not packing the firebox full enough. I’ve been a little apprehensive about over firing. I’ve only been tossing in 4-5 larger 5-6” splits.


Loading on some coals, I would only leave damper open for 20-25 minutes max.  As long as wood is dry, just needs a good char so it off gases.


----------



## Gearhead660

Got the temp controller installed and operational.  Thanks to everyone for their knowledge helping me get it going.  Now to fine tune the settings.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Jpops said:


> I start with 4-5 small 2-3” splits with kindling  leaving the damper open for probably 30-40 min or until these splits have almost turned to coals but are still burning quick yellow flames. My  problem might be I’m not packing the firebox full enough. I’ve been a little apprehensive about over firing. I’ve only been tossing in 4-5 larger 5-6” splits.


It sounds here like you're talking about how you do things when you start from a cold firebox.  The furnace needs to be hot -- so, after your starter fire, and then maybe one more good but quick load --  before it is going to behave normally.

So, once you've got the furnace running for the day, rake most of the coals to the front, and then load it full each time you load.  If that makes too much heat for your house, simply load less frequently (let the temp in the house drop before reloading).  You'll have to experiment to figure out how long to leave the damper open before shutting it;  I suspect birch will only need a few minutes to get charred.

If you get sick of futzing with the damper, and are comfortable doing this, read in this thread about the damper controller thermostat mod.  It is easy to do, and works great.  And you'll know your flue temp all the time, so you won't worry so much about overfiring. (Oh, I just noticed Gearhead660 posted a pic of his )

Oh, and you can (and should, I think) hook up a manometer to double wall pipe -- just drill a hole through both layers of the pipe, insert a section of brake line or other metal tube, hook it to the hose on the manometer, and you'll know what your draft is doing all the time.  The Dwyer mark ii model 25 is inexpensive and works well for this.


----------



## Getwidit

Gbawol42 said:


> Still dialing in this heatmax.  I am miles from where I started and a thank you to all you guys on this forum for that.
> 
> Biggest upgrade and difference maker was getting the return off the basement floor and to the ceiling.  I used two 12" flex duct connected to two 12x20" return air boxes, setup near the front of the heatmax to catch that heat coming up from the door and rising to the ceiling.  This also was nice because it also lets me use air filters now.  Return air went from a pretty steady 65f to around 75-85f from the ceiling.  No more blower on and off the whole burn cycle, it now stays on for the majority of the burn cycle.  Basement temp has dropped dramatically, which makes me believe that the heat is now upstairs.  Picture will explain this setup better.
> 
> I now am able to heat and maintain house temp down to 25-30f.  Colder than that it just won't keep up.  Register temps are around 95-100f during the hot parts of the burn cycle.  Just wondering what you think should be my next thing to tackle?
> 
> I am using my basement door, that I cut the top off of, as my return to the basement.  Do you think this could be an issue? I have thought maybe put the top of the door back on and cut a vent into the bottom of the door instead.  Maybe pull colder air off the floor was my thought.
> 
> I haven't really checked static pressure of the ducts, but I can feel the air coming out pretty good.
> 
> I am thinking some options are:
> 
> 1.  Mess with the return part of the system, either the basement door or the piping itself.
> 2. Maybe insulate my ducts and heatmax plenum downstairs?
> 3. Look into insulating basement with some foam board?
> 
> Or maybe I am at the max for this furnace?  Are my register temps similar to you guys?
> 
> I am getting around 10 hours of burn time on a full load, setting my temp controller to open at 275f and close at 350f.


 I dont think u need to insulate the whole basement but I dont see any insulation on ur ceil box. That's were u lose the most heat. The block walls and insulated by the earth. Just get some fiberglass insulation and hit all ur boxceils.


----------



## nellraq

Gearhead660 said:


> If you are looking for a long burn, pack it full.  How long are you leaving the damper open?  There is no way to adjust the blower setpoints.  others have installed resistors on the temp probe to essentially lower the temp when the blower turns on/off.



I have installed a resistor on my heatmax II.....which is the same as the T2.  I have virtually no coals now. The fan turns on at a lower temp, which allows the coals to release their heat to the air. This reduces the on/off cycling of the fan too.
Thanks to "Case"  for this easy, cheap mod!!


----------



## maple1

Getwidit said:


> I dont think u need to insulate the whole basement but I dont see any insulation on ur ceil box. That's were u lose the most heat. The block walls and insulated by the earth. Just get some fiberglass insulation and hit all ur boxceils.



Not sure exactly what you're saying here, but insulating a basement definitely pays off, and the earth is a very poor insulator.


----------



## Gbawol42

nellraq said:


> I have installed a resistor on my heatmax II.....which is the same as the T2.  I have virtually no coals now. The fan turns on at a lower temp, which allows the coals to release their heat to the air. This reduces the on/off cycling of the fan too.
> Thanks to "Case"  for this easy, cheap mod!!


Help me out, what page is his mod talked about so I can check it out


----------



## Gearhead660

__





						Tundra 2 / Heatmax plenum temps
					

Hi Case, I would like to change the on off settings forthe fan on my T2 as well.  Could you please provide the specs for the ohm resistor you are using.  A pic of the set up  and the resistor would be very helpful too.  Thanks   Sounds good. I can help you out. What temperature are you trying to...




					www.hearth.com
				



This is where I recall it.  Different thread.


----------



## Jpops

nellraq said:


> I have installed a resistor on my heatmax II.....which is the same as the T2.  I have virtually no coals now. The fan turns on at a lower temp, which allows the coals to release their heat to the air. This reduces the on/off cycling of the fan too.
> Thanks to "Case"  for this easy, cheap mod!!



 Am I correct in assuming a higher OHM resistor lowers the on and off temp of the blower?


----------



## nellraq

Jpops said:


> Am I correct in assuming a higher OHM resistor lowers the on and off temp of the blower?


I am not very mechanical I just did an exact copy of what case did...it works, and I am pleased!  Sorry I can't help you.


----------



## Gearhead660

Jpops said:


> Am I correct in assuming a higher OHM resistor lowers the on and off temp of the blower?


Correct.  The resistor changes what the computer reads as the resistance coming from the temp probe.  The temp you see on the LCD will not be the actual temp in the plenum.


----------



## Getwidit

This little return duct has made a ridiculous different in heat getting to the next two stories of the house. Temp is  64 on the floor and 92 off the ceiling.


----------



## Getwidit

maple1 said:


> Not sure exactly what you're saying here, but insulating a basement definitely pays off, and the earth is a very poor insulator.


 You're right the earth isn't going to be as good as insulating the walls how ever he could make a huge difference in heat loss by atleast putting some fiberglass in his box ciel. That's where you'll lose the most and is the cheapest to fix. Will be what 50 bucks todo a small room. Or 500 on 2 inch foam for the walls at that point. Throw another log on the fire imo.


----------



## Gbawol42

Has anyone ever tried to somehow measure firebox temp instead of flue temp (for the temp controller)?   Kinda like the kuuma does.  Just curious if it has been tried, or if it's even possible.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> Just curious if it has been tried, or if it's even possible.


Haven't heard of anyone doing this.
Anything is possible...its just about how much you are willing to drill/cut/weld on your furnace...and then assume the risk if something happens and the insurance company tells you to pound sand on your claim.


----------



## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> Haven't heard of anyone doing this.
> Anything is possible...its just about how much you are willing to drill/cut/weld on your furnace...and then assume the risk if something happens and the insurance company tells you to pound sand on your claim.



This thread is full of things that could cause your insurance to be void. Any modification to the appliance puts you at risk even if it seems totally safe to you.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> This thread is full of things that could cause your insurance to be void. Any modification to the appliance puts you at risk even if it seems totally safe to you.


Yeah, good point...which BTW, that has been noted along the way in various places too...


----------



## Gbawol42

Thread has been pretty quiet, everyone must be burning good.  Has been a pretty warm winter though.


----------



## brenndatomu

Yeah with weather like this the biggest problem is having to light a new fire everyday, and/or keeping the chimney clean from all the extra "cold starts"...


----------



## Mrpelletburner

Days have been in the mid 40’s and nights ~30f. Zero complaints


----------



## Mojappa

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah with weather like this the biggest problem is having to light a new fire everyday, and/or keeping the chimney clean from all the extra "cold starts"...



I’ve  learned a neat trick thanks to the weird Februly weather. If I have a night fire but don’t need one for the day I’ll  take the coals left in the morning and shovel them into the back of the stove, then I bury them with ashes that I have in a bucket near the stove (from shoveling them out obviously). I’ve banked coals for 12hrs doing this.Still have a cold start but it’s usually enough coals that I only need some small 1” splits or so to get things up and running again. Not sure if this is common knowledge among more seasoned wood burners tho..?


----------



## brenndatomu

Mojappa said:


> I’ve  learned a neat trick thanks to the weird Februly weather. If I have a night fire but don’t need one for the day I’ll  take the coals left in the morning and shovel them into the back of the stove, then I bury them with ashes that I have in a bucket near the stove (from shoveling them out obviously). I’ve banked coals for 12hrs doing this.Still have a cold start but it’s usually enough coals that I only need some small 1” splits or so to get things up and running again. Not sure if this is common knowledge among more seasoned wood burners tho..?


That used to be a really common trick amongst the old timers...not sure how many newbs know about it? Good idea bringing that up...the thing about the old steel bodied stoves is that since most them were "uninsulated" (no firebrick on the walls...or no more than half way up if they did) they would actually still provide a little heat while banked...modern stoves, not so much...especially ones configured as a furnace...in the basement...


----------



## Highbeam

Any rumors about the 2020 Drolet furnaces? Lambda? Variable intake? Hoping for a cheap Kuuma with a window!! Lol.


----------



## Mojappa

brenndatomu said:


> That used to be a really common trick amongst the old timers...not sure how many newbs know about it? Good idea bringing that up...the thing about the old steel bodied stoves is that since most them were "uninsulated" (no firebrick on the walls...or no more than half way up if they did) they would actually still provide a little heat while banked...modern stoves, not so much...especially ones configured as a furnace...in the basement...


Yeah, it definitely helps that I only do it when the electric heat can easily maintain daytime temps. Relying on it to bank coals and also put out any substantial warmth is asking a lot. Lol


----------



## Case1030

Highbeam said:


> Any rumors about the 2020 Drolet furnaces? Lambda? Variable intake? Hoping for a cheap Kuuma with a window!! Lol.



No rumors so far. All I could get out of Drolet is that they have a new sku number for the 2020 epa furnaces.

I'm thinking they will probably discontinue the picture window and add a stepper motor to control air based off firebox temp, maybe small changes to the firebox. That would make sense but only speculation on my part.


----------



## Highbeam

Case1030 said:


> No rumors so far. All I could get out of Drolet is that they have a new sku number for the 2020 epa furnaces.
> 
> I'm thinking they will probably discontinue the picture window and add a stepper motor to control air based off firebox temp, maybe small changes to the firebox. That would make sense but only speculation on my part.



Reverse engineer the Kuuma! I just can’t imagine the glass going away. I know it causes an efficiency/emissions hit by cooling the firebox but as with wood stoves the fire view is very important to most.

I’m getting a little tired of just 3.5 cubic feet of stove in a high heat demand shop. Want more power from a larger firebox and the higher efficiency of a giant heat exchanger to keep me from blowing all of my heat up the stack.

I can travel out of state to buy the current model soon but I think the controls and stepper intake control are actually a big improvement. The danger is that Drolet will jack up their prices.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> Reverse engineer the Kuuma!


I would bet that Lamppa has unknowingly sold furnaces to the competition...


----------



## Case1030

brenndatomu said:


> I would bet that Lamppa has unknowingly sold furnaces to the competition...



For how long the VF furnaces have been around... a guy would think it's already been done. Also the 2020 epa has been set in stone already for some time. 

Maybe the company's are milking old technology for long as they can before releasing their kuuma knock off?


----------



## Case1030

Highbeam said:


> Reverse engineer the Kuuma! I just can’t imagine the glass going away. I know it causes an efficiency/emissions hit by cooling the firebox but as with wood stoves the fire view is very important to most.
> 
> I’m getting a little tired of just 3.5 cubic feet of stove in a high heat demand shop. Want more power from a larger firebox and the higher efficiency of a giant heat exchanger to keep me from blowing all of my heat up the stack.
> 
> I can travel out of state to buy the current model soon but I think the controls and stepper intake control are actually a big improvement. The danger is that Drolet will jack up their prices.



Once the Tundra/Heatmax 3 comes out (or whatever they are gonna call it).. long as it has a stepper motor and price isn't ridiculous I will replace my T2. Regardless of picture window although it would be missed.


----------



## brenndatomu

Case1030 said:


> I will replace my T2. Regardless of picture window although it would be missed.


Yes...yes, you will miss it...I do.


----------



## Gbawol42

Case1030 said:


> I'm thinking they will probably discontinue the picture window



That window does put out a lot of heat.  I can barely sit in front of it most of the time without burning my legs.  If they figure out how to keep it though would be a step in the right direction


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> That window does put out a lot of heat.  I can barely sit in front of it most of the time without burning my legs.



....and that's probably one of the reasons why they don't do it.  Delivered efficiencies are not all that great to begin with on wood furnaces.  Having that window, you are not only losing delivered efficiency, but I would also guess you are losing some internal firebox temps which may also have an impact on combustion.  I know Daryl told me they tried having a window but they did not see the results they wanted with one.  Their sauna stoves do have a window, but they are also 100% radiant heat, so a little lost to the window vs heating up the water/stones is not a big deal.  It's still going to heating up the small sauna building.


----------



## Highbeam

JRHAWK9 said:


> ....and that's probably one of the reasons why they don't do it.  Delivered efficiencies are not all that great to begin with on wood furnaces.  Having that window, you are not only losing delivered efficiency, but I would also guess you are losing some internal firebox temps which may also have an impact on combustion.  I know Daryl told me they tried having a window but they did not see the results they wanted with one.  Their sauna stoves do have a window, but they are also 100% radiant heat, so a little lost to the window vs heating up the water/stones is not a big deal.  It's still going to heating up the small sauna building.



Does the "delivered" heat not include that lost through the window? I mean, if they just consider all of the potential heat from the wood charge and subtract the measured heat lost through the chimney then the rest is "delivered" and would include the window losses. The test would similarly disregard duct losses.

I think it's more about emissions and maintaining high firebox temperatures is more difficult with a big, cold, window sucking out heat. Maybe a double pane window like woodstock stoves use would help.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Highbeam said:


> Does the "delivered" heat not include that lost through the window? I mean, if they just consider all of the potential heat from the wood charge and subtract the measured heat lost through the chimney then the rest is "delivered" and would include the window losses. The test would similarly disregard duct losses.



Yes, correct.  Delivered means JUST the heat delivered through the ducts and does NOT include any radiant heat lost off the face, etc which does not make it through the ducts.  What you mention is referred to as stack loss efficiency and is a more accurate way to depict efficiency including what is delivered and what is radiated. 

In the attached paper Daryl wrote, what I call "delivered efficiency" is what Daryl refers to as "direct heat output efficiency
percentage"



			https://www.lamppakuuma.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Heat-efficiency-paper.pdf


----------



## Gbawol42

JRHAWK9 said:


> ....and that's probably one of the reasons why they don't do it.  Delivered efficiencies are not all that great to begin with on wood furnaces.  Having that window, you are not only losing delivered efficiency, but I would also guess you are losing some internal firebox temps which may also have an impact on combustion.  I know Daryl told me they tried having a window but they did not see the results they wanted with one.  Their sauna stoves do have a window, but they are also 100% radiant heat, so a little lost to the window vs heating up the water/stones is not a big deal.  It's still going to heating up the small sauna building.



Is there not a different type of glass that doesn't let the heat out as much?  Or just generally reflect back more? 

I remember someone talking about changing their glass to a more reflective glass awhile back, curious how his glass change effected his operation.


----------



## Highbeam

Gbawol42 said:


> Is there not a different type of glass that doesn't let the heat out as much?  Or just generally reflect back more?
> 
> I remember someone talking about changing their glass to a more reflective glass awhile back, curious how his glass change effected his operation.



There are stove brands, concerned with efficiency, that use double pane glass. That has to reduce heat loss.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Gbawol42 said:


> Is there not a different type of glass that doesn't let the heat out as much?  Or just generally reflect back more?
> 
> I remember someone talking about changing their glass to a more reflective glass awhile back, curious how his glass change effected his operation.


That guy is me.  I installed IR coated glass, and I like it.  I don't have any data on whether I get more heat in the house, but I believe I do: the damper is controlled according to flue temp, so I'm not necessarily simply sending more heat up the stack, and the difference in heat loss to the furnace room is considerable.   

Where I got it, etc, is here:




__





						Everything Drolet Tundra - Heatmax...
					

I will go on record here...I bet it's basically the same furnace, but they actively monitor and control the firebox temp using a stepper motor on the damper... ::-)  I doubt they be able to do a retro kit for their old furnaces since it would require some kind of sensor to be in the firebox. :(...




					www.hearth.com


----------



## andym

I'm looking at prices right now on the Drolet Heatpro. From what I read here they will be coming out with a newer version soon? I have until September to install a wood furnace, but I'm the do it right now kind. Should I hold off for a few months?


----------



## Gbawol42

andym said:


> I'm looking at prices right now on the Drolet Heatpro. From what I read here they will be coming out with a newer version soon? I have until September to install a wood furnace, but I'm the do it right now kind. Should I hold off for a few months?


If you can wait, I would.  It shouldn't be long before the new versions are announced.  Also the previous models should be discounted.


----------



## andym

Gbawol42 said:


> If you can wait, I would.  It shouldn't be long before the new versions are announced.  Also the previous models should be discounted.


This may be why a number of places I checked said discontinued. 
The new regs take effect in May right?
I'll be disappointed if they no longer have glass doors tho. 
Am I missing something in comparing the Heatpro with the Max caddy? They are almost identical right? The best price I could find for the Max Caddy was more than 5K delivered vs 2599 for the heatpro. What gives?


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> I'm looking at prices right now on the Drolet Heatpro. From what I read here they will be coming out with a newer version soon? I have until September to install a wood furnace, but I'm the do it right now kind. Should I hold off for a few months?


Hard to say...discounted prices now...vs ? $ on the new ones...plus HP is a proven design now...but will they still be good in the first year or two of a new design? Tundra 1 didn't work out too well for them.


andym said:


> This may be why a number of places I checked said discontinued.
> The new regs take effect in May right?
> I'll be disappointed if they no longer have glass doors tho.
> Am I missing something in comparing the Heatpro with the Max caddy? They are almost identical right? The best price I could find for the Max Caddy was more than 5K delivered vs 2599 for the heatpro. What gives?


May 15th.
HP vs Max...Max is sold dealer only, so more markup there I'd say...plus Max is just the "premium" version of the HP...Ford/Lincoln type of thing.
When the Tundra came out it had (2) 8" duct connections instead of using a plenum like the Caddy...easier for DIY'rs to hook up. But then Drolet claimed that was too restrictive and went back to the plenum setup on the Tundra II...HP went with the plenum connection from day one...the Caddys used to have premium controls too...but T2 and HP have controls very similar (identical?) to the Caddys now...plus the Caddys can be set up for multifuel too.
Some people think that the Caddys are made with thicker and/or better quality metal too...its possible, but I personally kinda doubt that...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

andym said:


> I'll be disappointed if they no longer have glass doors tho.


Replacement door from T2 is $160 -- could swap it into the T3, likely.


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Hard to say...discounted prices now...vs ? $ on the new ones...plus HP is a proven design now...but will they still be good in the first year or two of a new design? Tundra 1 didn't work out too well for them.
> 
> 
> Some people think that the Caddys are made with thicker and/or better quality metal too...its possible, but I personally kinda doubt that...


I wouldn't be afraid to try the new version unless it is radically different. Or way more money.

According to both websites the thickness of the fire boxes are the same. Could be a difference in quality of steel tho.
The only real differences I notice other than price, plenum, and multifuel option is the size of the blower motor. The controls on the heatpro are not as fancy but work in the same way. I haven't compared them side by side in real life tho.....


----------



## Socratic Monologue

andym said:


> Or way more money.


If they do sub a stepper motor on the damper, it might be $$.  I couldn't find a way to do it that was remotely affordable, but I admit I'm a sheer novice in that area.

I'd happily pay T2 price plus, say, $750 for a T3 with a stepper; even automated, the current on/off damper is a little lame.  I'd throw in another $100 if it had IR coated glass.   Another $100 with a variable (as with the blower mod that I haven't gotten to on mine yet) blower.

And Bluetooth...something...Alexa...something...


----------



## Gbawol42

Socratic Monologue said:


> If they do sub a stepper motor on the damper, it might be $$.  I couldn't find a way to do it that was remotely affordable, but I admit I'm a sheer novice in that area.
> 
> I'd happily pay T2 price plus, say, $750 for a T3 with a stepper; even automated, the current on/off damper is a little lame.  I'd throw in another $100 if it had IR coated glass.   Another $100 with a variable (as with the blower mod that I haven't gotten to on mine yet) blower.
> 
> And Bluetooth...something...Alexa...something...


I guarantee if they come out with a stepper motor for the damper (which I will admit I would love) someone on this forum will somehow rig it to his T2 and get it to work.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> If you can wait, I would.  It shouldn't be long before the new versions are announced.  Also the previous models should be discounted.





andym said:


> This may be why a number of places I checked said discontinued.
> The new regs take effect in May right?


Just to be clear, IF anybody still has HP's in stock on May 15th...they can't sell it to you...at least not legally.


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Just to be clear, IF anybody still has HP's in stock on May 15th...they can't sell it to you...at least not legally.


I thought they just couldn't manufacture them after it takes effect. Surely they will release a new model before the old ones are gone.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> I thought they just couldn't manufacture them after it takes effect. Surely they will release a new model before the old ones are gone.


Nope...no sell through on this one...if dealers still have pre 2020 certified models in stock...they are stuck with them...not sure if they have to return them, cut 'em up, or what?
Yeah, I would have expected to see new models by now...makes a guy wonder what the hold up is...they wait too much longer and Lamppa will have the only wood furnace available in the states...


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Gbawol42 said:


> I guarantee if they come out with a stepper motor for the damper (which I will admit I would love) someone on this forum will somehow rig it to his T2 and get it to work.


Yeah, I sure would try.  I don't imagine they'll redesign any more than they have to, so new additions might fit the T2.


----------



## brenndatomu

They'll probably throw us all for a loop...throw a cat on 'er and call it a day...


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Nope...no sell through on this one...if dealers still have pre 2020 certified models in stock...they are stuck with them...not sure if they have to return them, cut 'em up, or what?
> Yeah, I would have expected to see new models by now...makes a guy wonder what the hold up is...they wait too much longer and Lamppa will have the only wood furnace available in the states...


So maybe I'll order one now and return it if I like the new one better!  
Is it possible they are just not going to bother with the US market on this?


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> Is it possible they are just not going to bother with the US market on this?


Possible...but doubtful...


----------



## andym

It would be nice if the manufacturers would assign a customer/technical service person to monitor these kinds of forums. A few good answers here and there would cut some of these threads in half! 
I have nothing against buying a kuuma, but would rather go with a cheaper option.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> It would be nice if the manufacturers would assign a customer/technical service person to monitor these kinds of forums.


SBI used to have a guy (Fyrebug) that hung out on the forums some...he took a different job though. USSC had a guy that showed up for a bit...I think he got tired of defending their junk all the time.
Lamppa is the only one here now, AFIK...at least in regards to wood furnaces.


----------



## Highbeam

andym said:


> I thought they just couldn't manufacture them after it takes effect. Surely they will release a new model before the old ones are gone.



Even if they have a warehouse full of the new model, they want to sell all of the old pre2020 stuff first. They will be scrap metal after may 15. There is some strategy.

There have been some cat furnaces. Cat stoves have been increasing but I would want the stepper motor automation even with a cat. Full on /full offseems ridiculous.


----------



## brenndatomu

Socratic Monologue said:


> Another $100 with a variable (as with the blower mod that I haven't gotten to on mine yet) blower.


If OEM was to go to true variable speed blower, I'm sure they would go to a DC motor like fossil fuel furnaces have been using for some years now already...but my guess is that it would add something more like $500 to the price.
That is what I was looking at doing (installing motor/controls off a used gas furnace) when I stumbled upon (well, @STIHLY DAN  suggested trying) using these low ambient temp controllers to infinitely vary the blower speed/follow plenum temps...but even the used motor/controls that I found were still spendy...and at that point I was not willing to gamble much money on something that was just an experiment to see if keeping the blower running longer (instead of cycling on/off) would help with overall heat output much...knowing what I know now I would be willing to spend the money if I found a reasonably priced motor/control board, but it seems pointless since the ICM type controls have worked out so well...


----------



## andym

I decided to email drolet customer service and ask when the 2020 compliant Heatpro will be available. This is the reply I got.


----------



## andym

I'm not sure if a heatmax/tundra is big enough. Our house was built on 1973. 2x4 exterior walls. Not real tight. Windows are decent. 1300 on main floor, 700 2nd floor. Full basement with uninsulated cement block walls. (Plan to insulate soon). Furnace will have to go in the corner of the basement. 
I've got 3300 sqft total living area is that what I go by? If so I'll need the Heatpro. 
If I don't count the basement I've only got 2000. 
I do want the basement heated.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> I'm not sure if a heatmax/tundra is big enough. Our house was built on 1973. 2x4 exterior walls. Not real tight. Windows are decent. 1300 on main floor, 700 2nd floor. Full basement with uninsulated cement block walls. (Plan to insulate soon). Furnace will have to go in the corner of the basement.
> I've got 3300 sqft total living area is that what I go by? If so I'll need the Heatpro.
> If I don't count the basement I've only got 2000.
> I do want the basement heated.


They say you don't really count the basement area...it will stay fairly warm just from radiant heat off the furnace...all (or most) of the convective heat can be pushed upstairs.
Sounds like you have about the same as me, 1200 basement, 1200 main, 650-700 2cnd floor...the Tundra did fine, but we were not heating the second floor back then either. 1940 build with 2x4 walls (brick exterior) and just average insulation...some spots good, some still need work. Tundra heated the house fine on all but the very coldest of days...BUT, I always thought that it seemed like my Tundra put out less heat than some other peoples did...so I may not be a great comparison for you. 
I guess as long as you can set things up so your current heating system can pick up the slack on the occasional extra frigid day, then a Tundra should take 95% (ish) of your heat bill...


----------



## Gbawol42

andym said:


> I decided to email drolet customer service and ask when the 2020 compliant Heatpro will be available. This is the reply I got.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 258072


Kinda stinks the heatmax won't be out till September.  Wonder why they waited so long?


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> They say you don't really count the basement area...it will stay fairly warm just from radiant heat off the furnace...all (or most) of the convective heat can be pushed upstairs.
> Sounds like you have about the same as me, 1200 basement, 1200 main, 650-700 2cnd floor...the Tundra did fine, but we were not heating the second floor back then either. 1940 build with 2x4 walls (brick exterior) and just average insulation...some spots good, some still need work. Tundra heated the house fine on all but the very coldest of days...BUT, I always thought that it seemed like my Tundra put out less heat than some other peoples did...so I may not be a great comparison for you.
> I guess as long as you can set things up so your current heating system can pick up the slack on the occasional extra frigid day, then a Tundra should take 95% (ish) of your heat bill...


I really like the 24 inch firebox on the heatpro. About half of my current supply is 20 plus inches. Guess I have a chainsaw tho......
What are the chances that I'll be are be to actually get my hands on one a new model in september? It'll most likely be November til they ship. Who knows.....
Perhaps I should just get a current model and update in a couple years once the new models get the kinks worked out.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> I really like the 24 inch firebox on the heatpro. About half of my current supply is 20 plus inches. Guess I have a chainsaw tho......
> What are the chances that I'll be are be to actually get my hands on one a new model in september? It'll most likely be November til they ship. Who knows.....
> Perhaps I should just get a current model and update in a couple years once the new models get the kinks worked out.


I ran 22" (and even a bit longer) in my Tundra, no problem.
Yup, sounds like risky business waiting on a new heater when there is no hard release date, no price, no details...and yeah, first year of an all new model (potentially) could be bad news too...


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> Kinda stinks the heatmax won't be out till September.  Wonder why they waited so long?



To me it stinks of them playing the waiting game and are now rushing to get something to market.  Why wait till September for the first model to be released?  People who are in the market will want to buy before fall.  His choice of words "will be certified" tells me it's still not certified yet.   Almost as if they were betting on this May 2020 deadline being changed or maybe even completely eliminated.   When I emailed SBI a couple years ago about it they pretty much told me they didn't think it would stick, at least in it's current form.  I was told the same thing by the local SBI dealer.  They even stated how they didn't think it was even passable, without the use of a cat.  LOL

I hope I am completely off base, as we all know how rushing things worked out for Hy-C.


----------



## brenndatomu

JRHAWK9 said:


> To me it stinks of them playing the waiting game


Could be like @Highbeam said...wanted to make sure that as many of the old models were sold before releasing the new ones...but they could do it in June, not wait until September! Must need more time like you said.
More than likely they are (or will be soon) building the new ones now...


----------



## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> Could be like @Highbeam said...wanted to make sure that as many of the old models were sold before releasing the new ones...but they could do it in June, not wait until September! Must need more time like you said.
> More than likely they are (or will be soon) building the new ones now...


If there’s even a rumor of a “new and improved “furnace coming, people will delay the purchase. All of their wholesale customers that own old stoves will be screwed. Those wholesalers are actually the customer to sbi. If the regulations were written to allow sell through of pre 2020 models then I suspect we retail customers would be more informed and maybe even directly marketed about the great things coming from sbi.


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> great things coming from sbi.


Hopefully?!


----------



## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> Hopefully?!



Im hoping! If they announced that they are dropping the us market then that too would damage their wholesale customers with stock on hand. This would be a super secret until after may 15.


----------



## brenndatomu

It seems like they have basically admitted in their email responses to various people here that they are still going to be a player in the US...


----------



## Highbeam

brenndatomu said:


> It seems like they have basically admitted in their email responses to various people here that they are still going to be a player in the US...


Or is that part of the act? Or do those low level email answerers even know the plan?

I’m pretty confident that you’re right though and that something compliant is coming. Looking forward to it. Really. We need more than one option!


----------



## brenndatomu

Highbeam said:


> something compliant is coming. Looking forward to it. Really. We need more than one option!


Right...I get it...I mean even Lamppa has to realize that a lot of people just cant afford a VF...I wouldn't have one either but for finding a killer deal on a lightly used one...which honestly I have Dale at Lamppa to thank for that.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Highbeam said:


> We need more than one option!



Nobody to blame for this other than all the other lazy a$$ manufacturers who had to be forced to get their $hit together.


----------



## andym

JRHAWK9 said:


> Nobody to blame for this other than all the other lazy.       manufacturers who had to be forced to get their.     together.


Thats only half the story. The other half is the EPA regulations. They have definitely accomplished some good things, but there is a cost involved. In dollars, options, etc...
There is always a drawback somewhere when the government gets involved. Especially in "free trade" economy. Always.

PS: I am not anti government.


----------



## JRHAWK9

andym said:


> Thats only half the story. The other half is the EPA regulations. They have definitely accomplished some good things, but there is a cost involved. In dollars, options, etc...
> There is always a drawback somewhere when the government gets involved. Especially in "free trade" economy. Always.
> 
> PS: I am not anti government.



It shouldn't take the government to drive advancement.  Lamppa sought out to better his product on his own....it was, what, 30 years in the making.  Nobody forced him to do what he did, his motivation came from within.


----------



## andym

JRHAWK9 said:


> It shouldn't take the government to drive advancement.  Lamppa sought out to better his product on his own....it was, what, 30 years in the making.  Nobody forced him to do what he did, his motivation came from within.


Correct. Not many manufacturers will put money into developing the best when they are making a handsome profit on an already functional, competitive  product. If it ain't broke don't fix it....in other words.

The high efficiency stoves, boilers, and furnaces we expect and enjoy are indeed a positive result of EPA regulations. It is naive at best to think there is no negative effect. (I know you understand this, but there are way too many people who dont)

Back on topic tho.....it looks like I'll probably get a current model before the 15 of May. I just wish I knew if the new models would be available in september for sure....


----------



## laynes69

SBI was also ahead of the game when they introduced the caddy line of furnaces. While Kuuma has been around for years, the furnaces were not always clean burning. I do believe SBI has been experimenting for years with electronics (they have their own testing lab). In a business, why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in testing and R&D to increase the cost of a furnace and run it out of a specific price range in the market. There's zero doubt that SBI can't replicate a furnace similar to the Kuuma, however they were just waiting till definite regulations hit before releasing a new furnace. SBI is a multi-million dollar company. I'll be curious what comes out with the new furnace.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> While Kuuma has been around for years, the furnaces were not always clean burning.


They weren't? I mean I know they have not always been at the level they are now...but still cleaner than most others along the way I'd say.


laynes69 said:


> SBI was also ahead of the game when they introduced the caddy line of furnaces


I gotta say, I do miss the "2-3 minute HX cleanings" you can do on the Caddy/Tundra design...that's awesome! (and the window too)


----------



## JRHAWK9

laynes69 said:


> While Kuuma has been around for years, the furnaces were not always clean burning.



You may want to cite some sources for that claim.  Even the very early Kuuma 1 was clean burning, just not computer controlled.  It's the sole reason Daryl started in this business, he wanted a clean burning furnace which didn't require constant chimney cleaning.  He claims he has not cleaned his chimney in over 30 years.  They have been in current form at least since 2010.  10+ years prior to needing to be.  They have EPA test results from early 2010 exceeding the overall 2020 standards.  They just needed to re-test for the 4 different burn categories specific to the 2020 standard.



			https://www.lamppakuuma.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Vapor-Fire-100-Intertek-2010.pdf
		




laynes69 said:


> There's zero doubt that SBI can't replicate a furnace similar to the Kuuma, however they were just waiting till definite regulations hit before releasing a new furnace.



I know, this is the problem I have.  It takes government intervention to force advancement when they could have simply done it on their own....to the benefit of all of us.  I'm not doubting their ability, I'm doubting their lack of willingness to better the industry.  It makes it even worse that they are a multi-million dollar company.  These are the companies who should be leading the way with cutting edge technology, not waiting for the government to force them too.  Maybe, just maybe, some aspects of government wouldn't be so big if these multi-million dollar companies would take more of an initiative to better the industry they serve.

Due to what SBI has available at their disposal, I'll be disappointed if they don't come up with something far exceeding that of the Kuuma.  If they don't, are they just sandbagging and just doing enough to meet the standard while having something in their pocket for any future even stricter standard?  We will never know, but they have the money and resources to do some really good things for the industry.....but will they?  This is what endears me to Lamppa.  He used his own personal limited resources  for the advancement of the industry.  I'm not even sure we would have the current 2020 warm air furnace standards sticking (at least so far) if Lamppa didn't show the world it could be done.  Not saying others were not capable, but they were not willing.  Instead of them using their money/resources to advance their own products, I'm sure some were using it to fight the legislation instead.


----------



## JRHAWK9

brenndatomu said:


> I gotta say, I do miss the "2-3 minute HX cleanings" you can do on the Caddy/Tundra design...that's awesome! (and the window too)



After watching a video of how this is done....it is pretty slick!  I'd definitely be cleaning it more often if ours were that easy.


----------



## laynes69

I don't think the kuuma 1 came close to current regulations or prior EPA regulations, but I could be wrong. Maybe I am assuming but it was from this post.





__





						Kuuma stove pipe keeps lighting on fire
					

Moving this thread to the boiler room where fellow Kuuma owners can chime in.




					www.hearth.com
				




Either way, it's all about business and it comes down to the bottom dollar. Also you have to remember when other manufacturers were building a steel box with an air jacket, SBI or PSG started the line of Caddy's that they have today. Much the less....manufacturers fighting over the idea that a furnace couldn't be EPA certified ( those who know the threads know who I'm talking about). Just like Kuuma, the had gone above and beyond the competitors of the time.


----------



## andym

I've been emailing drolet customer service. He told me "they bought all competing models and they did not measure up to drolet customer expectations. The new model will exeed these standards." (Paraphrasing here....)

He assured me that they are keeping the glass. He may have just been trying to tell me what I want to hear tho.... 

At this point I'm leaning toward waiting on the new model. If I don't like it there is always the Kuuma, or a used ???, or an indoor boiler even......

Unless I find a heavily discounted tundra before may 15! I don't expect this to happen because (a) few brick-an-mortar stores even have them (b) there's pretty good demand as it is, and (c) Drolet can sell off remaining inventory in Canada right? "We'll send you the new models, you ship us back the old ones...."


----------



## Socratic Monologue

JRHAWK9 said:


> After watching a video of how this is done....it is pretty slick!  I'd definitely be cleaning it more often if ours were that easy.


This ain't a Kuuma thread, of course,  but knowing might make me like my Tundra more: what's the hx tube cleaning like on the Kuuma?


----------



## JRHAWK9

Socratic Monologue said:


> This ain't a Kuuma thread, of course,  but knowing might make me like my Tundra more: what's the hx tube cleaning like on the Kuuma?



It's not that hard, but it's definitely more time consuming.....and more messy compared to what you have to do.  You just remove the hood, which slides off, remove like 10 bolts to remove the cover and then clean the flyash buildup off all metal surfaces.  The stuff just falls off when you touch it, so that's easy, but there is a lot of area to do.  I use a Skotch-Brite pad and basically just do a wipe over of all surfaces.  In fall, when the stove pipe is removed, I also gain access through the flue collar to get what I can't get from the front.

I don't think it gets any easier for what you guys have to do though.


----------



## Gbawol42

Kinda off topic of furnaces, just hoping everyone is doing well and staying safe during this crisis.   I know one thing I am way ahead on firewood now after being off work so long.


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gbawol42 said:


> Kinda off topic of furnaces, just hoping everyone is doing well and staying safe during this crisis.   I know one thing I am way ahead on firewood now after being off work so long.



I literally have not left the property since last weekend.  Working from home and splitting/stacking wood is pretty much all I've been doing.


----------



## sloeffle

Gbawol42 said:


> Kinda off topic of furnaces, just hoping everyone is doing well and staying safe during this crisis.   I know one thing I am way ahead on firewood now after being off work so long.


If it would ever stop raining around here, I might be able to get some firewood put up. We only had a couple weekends this winter where the soil was frozen enough to take the tractor back to the woods. Luckily I have about a cord left over from this year to help with next year.


----------



## laynes69

No shutdown for my wife or I, still going strong at work. Last sunday I processed a cord of wood. Yesterday I hauled 3 trailer loads of manure for the garden, and hoping to go out and cut wood again this weekend.


----------



## JRHAWK9

I'm not a fan of heat, so I do all my cutting and hauling in Dec, Jan and Feb.  I love cutting on cold winter days.  Then start my splitting/stacking as soon as all the snow is gone (and the ground lets me pound T-posts in) so I am done with it by the time things start warming up and the ticks/skeeters start coming out.

Here's this winters haul.  Photo was taken a couple weeks ago on the 14th right before I fired up the splitter for the first time.  I'm about 6.75 cord into it and have about another 2.5 to go or so.  Should have about 9.5 cord by the time I'm done.


----------



## brenndatomu

Was on SBI's site, clicked on myfireplaceproducts.com, which I hear is basically the company store...anyways, they are having a decent end of season sale on stuff, plus free shipping, if anybody wants a T2, HP, etc.








						DROLET - TUNDRA II WOOD FURNACE
					

Tundra II, a completely re-engineered high efficiency wood furnace that meets the new EPA (CSA B415.1-10) clean-air standards. This enhanced furnace will provide considerable energy savings over a conventional wood furnace, using up to 30% less wood for t




					myfireplaceproducts.com
				




Site says they are down to (40) T2's, (34) Heatmax's, and (15) Heatpro's
Never did find anything out about the 2020 model furnaces, which is what I went looking for to begin with...


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Was on SBI's site, clicked on myfireplaceproducts.com, which I hear is basically the company store...anyways, they are having a decent end of season sale on stuff, plus free shipping, if anybody wants a T2, HP, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DROLET - TUNDRA II WOOD FURNACE
> 
> 
> Tundra II, a completely re-engineered high efficiency wood furnace that meets the new EPA (CSA B415.1-10) clean-air standards. This enhanced furnace will provide considerable energy savings over a conventional wood furnace, using up to 30% less wood for t
> 
> 
> 
> 
> myfireplaceproducts.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Site says they are down to (40) T2's, (34) Heatmax's, and (15) Heatpro's
> Never did find anything out about the 2020 model furnaces, which is what I went looking for to begin with...


Thanks for the heads up! I'll check it out and probably order one. The more I read about the T2s the less patient I am of waiting for the new model. They told me September, but they were waiting on the EPA approval. It's anyone's guess on how long this coronavirus will delay that. Besides, they will most likely be marking them UP in September instead of down!


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> Besides, they will most likely be marking them UP in September instead of down!


Oh they wont be getting any cheaper, you can bank on that!


----------



## andym

Is there any significant difference between the Heatmax 2 and Tundra 2? Only thing I can see is the Heatmax has fancier sheet metal IMO. 
PS: I believe I will indeed order one or the other. That price and free shipping is too tempting. Add a couple hundred for temp controllers, etc and it'll be almost as good as the next model for $800? less. 

I was going to wait for the next model, but i just don't think they will be that much better than a modded current one. Hope I'm wrong though! It's not like they'll reach 90% efficiency, cause the other 2020 models dont. (The 2020 Fire Chief/Shelter is almost the same as the previous one. No fundamental changes that I could observe.)


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> Only thing I can see is the Heatmax has fancier sheet metal


Bingo!
The only reason they did it was to give it a different SKU, that way the big box stores weren't competing with each other so much since they usually will only do that on identical model...that came straight from the SBI rep that used to hang out here back when the Tundra came out


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Bingo!
> The only reason they did it was to give it a different SKU, that way the big box stores weren't competing with each other so much since they usually will only do that on identical model...that came straight from the SBI rep that used to hang out here back when the Tundra came out


Thats what I thought. I like the sound of Heatmax as well, gives me a warm feeling. The name Tundra, not so much! (Where did that name come from anyway?)
 Might have to flip a coi to decide!


----------



## andym

andym said:


> Thats what I thought. I like the sound of Heatmax as well, gives me a warm feeling. The name Tundra, not so much! (Where did that name come from anyway?)
> Might have to flip a coi to decide!


Just placed an order for the Heatmax2. The shipping was free except for a shipping surcharge of $3.71 because my "location is in a remote region." LOL! Thats hilarious! How did they determine that? 
They (MFP) even threw in a pack of firestarters.


----------



## brenndatomu

$3.71 for remote location  
Why bother? 
I personally like the look of the HM better...


----------



## andym

I'm looking at temp controllers on ebay....will any PID controller with hi/lo alarms work? Is there a certain feature I should look for?
What kind of sensor do I need?


----------



## andym

My new Heatmax2 arrived last night at 930! Didn't expect it so soon. I've got it unpacked and examined. I hooked up some chimney pipe so I can fire it up outside tommorrow. Not sure if I'll 
	

		
			
		

		
	









	

		
			
		

		
	
be able to sleep tonight!!
Question: how far open should the damper door be when the switch is on? It looks like it would only be open half way. I took things apart and there doesn't seem to be anything binding anywhere. The position of the damper control rod did not match the manual, so i adjusted it. This didnt change the length of travel however. If I adjust it so it opens farther, then it will not close fully. (Pics below.)
Also: does anyone know what the +/- buttons are for on the back of the control box?
Edit: apologies for the mixed up post! My phone does not cooperate......


----------



## brenndatomu

9:30!? That crazy.
The damper opening doesn't look bad to me...they don't open wide open...but I had a T1, so maybe someone with a T2 would be better to reply to this question...


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> 9:30!? That crazy.
> The damper opening doesn't look bad to me...they don't open wide open...but I had a T1, so maybe someone with a T2 would be better to reply to this question...


It was kinda late, but 50 hr shipping on a 665lb item is pretty quick. 
I guess I'll find out about the damper.

The temp controller I'm looking at comes with a k-type sensor. Will this work? 
(3fordasho lists a j-type on page ?16?)

Is this thread meant only for first generation Tundra\heatmax? I can start another thread with my questions on installing,etc........


----------



## nellraq

andym said:


> It was kinda late, but 50 hr shipping on a 665lb item is pretty quick.
> I guess I'll find out about the damper.
> 
> The temp controller I'm looking at comes with a k-type sensor. Will this work?
> (3fordasho lists a j-type on page ?16?)
> 
> Is this thread meant only for first generation Tundra\heatmax? I can start another thread with my questions on installing,etc........


----------



## nellraq

I have the max 2 as well.  your draft opening is identical to mine...it works great!


----------



## Gearhead660

andym said:


> My new Heatmax2 arrived last night at 930! Didn't expect it so soon. I've got it unpacked and examined. I hooked up some chimney pipe so I can fire it up outside tommorrow. Not sure if I'll
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 258926
> View attachment 258926
> View attachment 258927
> View attachment 258928
> View attachment 258929
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> be able to sleep tonight!!
> Question: how far open should the damper door be when the switch is on? It looks like it would only be open half way. I took things apart and there doesn't seem to be anything binding anywhere. The position of the damper control rod did not match the manual, so i adjusted it. This didnt change the length of travel however. If I adjust it so it opens farther, then it will not close fully. (Pics below.)
> Also: does anyone know what the +/- buttons are for on the back of the control box?
> Edit: apologies for the mixed up post! My phone does not cooperate......


That looks like that same amount my T2 damper opens,  just need to make sure it closes all the way.  The + is to see the actual plenum temp.  The  - appears to go through the setting, tried to figure it out, may be a way to adjust them.  If someone knows, please share!


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> The temp controller I'm looking at comes with a k-type sensor. Will this work?


I used a K type.


andym said:


> Is this thread meant only for first generation Tundra\heatmax? I can start another thread with my questions on installing,etc........


It has kinda morphed into both...but maybe it is time to do a T2 thread on its own...if nothing else maybe to document  all the mods and how they are applied to the T2...you can place a link to your new thread here if you decide to do it.


----------



## andym

I go with the k type then.

I'll keep posting here for now. Most questions will mean the same answers whether the furnace is a 1 or 2. This thread has been a great help to me, so I'd like to keep it going.

I burned off some of the stink today. The wood I grabbed was not fully seasoned and with the outside temp being 60+ I didn't have real good draft. I left the damper open the whole time and never hit the high limit. The longest the circ fan stayed on was maybe an hour. Surface temp near heat exchanger door hit 400 once. I only burned a big armload all together. Moved it into the garage now so I can begin disassembly for the trip downstairs.


----------



## andym

Finally got the furnace down the basement stairs yesterday.  I removed nearly everything that could be removed. (Partly just out of curiosity) What was left could not have weighed more than 325 lbs. I could easily manhandle it off the pallet onto rollers singlehanded. The only thing I needed a helper for really was to get it started down the 2x4 runners I screwed fast to the steps. I pictured it sliding gently down, but failed to notice the downturned lower lip on the front of the unit as well as all the screws poking down. I sort of had to duck-walk it down the 2x4s. From there I used 2 1,000 lb mover dollies. Whole process including reassembly was about 3 hrs.






I don't know why they put that loop on top. At first glance it appears like a nifty way to hoist the whole unit. Closer inspection reveals that only the 2 smaller pipes are actually welded to the firebox. The center one is floating at the back. You couldn't pay me to lift my fully assembled heatmax2 in this way. I can't help but think that someone will try it tho.....


Bottom shot of center tube.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> I don't know why they put that loop on top. At first glance it appears like a nifty way to hoist the whole unit. Closer inspection reveals that only the 2 smaller pipes are actually welded to the firebox. The center one is floating at the back. You couldn't pay me to lift my fully assembled heatmax2 in this way. I can't help but think that someone will try it tho.....


I agree...I wouldn't pick from that loop either. That not being welded at the back there is one of the changes they've made from the original T1 design...they had all 3 of the HX tubes welded up tight on both ends on the T1's...things couldn't float as the firebox/HX tubes expand/contracted...oops, that's cost them some money!
Nice work on the elevation change there...I see you had the "big hoss" hooked up there for a bit


----------



## Gbawol42

andym said:


> Finally got the furnace down the basement stairs yesterday.  I removed nearly everything that could be removed. (Partly just out of curiosity) What was left could not have weighed more than 325 lbs. I could easily manhandle it off the pallet onto rollers singlehanded. The only thing I needed a helper for really was to get it started down the 2x4 runners I screwed fast to the steps. I pictured it sliding gently down, but failed to notice the downturned lower lip on the front of the unit as well as all the screws poking down. I sort of had to duck-walk it down the 2x4s. From there I used 2 1,000 lb mover dollies. Whole process including reassembly was about 3 hrs.
> View attachment 259262
> View attachment 259263
> View attachment 259264
> View attachment 259265
> View attachment 259266
> 
> I don't know why they put that loop on top. At first glance it appears like a nifty way to hoist the whole unit. Closer inspection reveals that only the 2 smaller pipes are actually welded to the firebox. The center one is floating at the back. You couldn't pay me to lift my fully assembled heatmax2 in this way. I can't help but think that someone will try it tho.....
> View attachment 259267
> 
> Bottom shot of center tube.



I wont lie, I lifted my heatmax out of the back of my truck using that loop and a come a long attached to my garage rafter.   Lifted it pallet and all, looking back I guess I was lucky.  If that loop wasn't for lifting I wonder what it is really for?  The stove was perfectly balanced lifting from there as well.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> Closer inspection reveals that only the 2 smaller pipes are actually welded to the firebox. The center one is floating at the back.


Can you get some close up pics of all around the HX cleanout door...where it comes through the front of the furnace there?
I remember hearing that the box is no longer welded to front panel like it used to be...it is allowed to float there too.


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Can you get some close up pics of all around the HX cleanout door...where it comes through the front of the furnace there?
> I remember hearing that the box is no longer welded to front panel like it used to be...it is allowed to float there too.


I have it reassembled now so pics won't show much. You are correct about it not being welded. There is a rope gasket on the inside of the air jacket.


----------



## andym

Gbawol42 said:


> I wont lie, I lifted my heatmax out of the back of my truck using that loop and a come a long attached to my garage rafter.   Lifted it pallet and all, looking back I guess I was lucky.  If that loop wasn't for lifting I wonder what it is really for?  The stove was perfectly balanced lifting from there as well.


When fully assembled the sheet metal on the front and back would probably keep the heat exchanger from moving too much. The owners manual says nothing one way or the other which is strange. Glad it worked for you!


----------



## sloeffle

Gbawol42 said:


> I wont lie, I lifted my heatmax out of the back of my truck using that loop and a come a long attached to my garage rafter.   Lifted it pallet and all, looking back I guess I was lucky.  If that loop wasn't for lifting I wonder what it is really for?  The stove was perfectly balanced lifting from there as well.


Same here. I moved my Caddy with an engine hoist around my basement using the loop up top also.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> I have it reassembled now so pics won't show much.


Doesn't matter...on the outside, around the box is what I was after. Thanks!


----------



## laynes69

The loop is how they are transported around the factory. Mine isn't welded either and I had no issues with a tractor and boom down the outside basement steps.


----------



## Gbawol42

laynes69 said:


> The loop is how they are transported around the factory. Mine isn't welded either and I had no issues with a tractor and boom down the outside basement steps.



Phew!  Honestly if that loop wasn't for lifting they really should not have it there.


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Doesn't matter...on the outside, around the box is what I was after. Thanks!






The front of the firebox ends at the bottom of the hx clean out. There is a separate thinner plate that covers the rest (2nd pic).


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> View attachment 259319
> View attachment 259320
> 
> The front of the firebox ends at the bottom of the hx clean out. There is a separate thinner plate that covers the rest (2nd pic).


Perfect, exactly what I was trying to see. Yup, quite a few little changes from the T1.


----------



## Pwilli1989

I have had this stove for 4 years and have heated my 1500sq/ft split level home with it 100% (NE Ohio). I have been pretty pleased with the unit, it does a good job heating the 1966 home for the most part, I do have some complaints but I think i would have the similar issues with any wood stove. It really likes DRYYYY wood, if you're trying to burn wood that is even a little green/ wet it is a creosote making machine with very little heat output. It does have a hard time keeping the house warm when the temp gets down into the single digits but that's probably more of an insulation issue rather than the stove itself.  Anyway, the reason I am here is to give kudos to the company for what they did for me this winter. A couple of months ago, in the middle of the winter, I noticed a couple of cracks around the firebox which of course made me nervous. I took some pics and called the company. They are French Canadian so there is a little bit of a language barrier depending on who you talk to. Being that the firebox has a 5 year warrantee they were able to cover its repair/replacement. Glad this didnt happen next winter, I would have been out of luck. The first thing they did was have an engineer look at the cracks and they deemed it safe to burn while we figured out the details on how to get it fixed. After a few days, they offered me two options, pay them $400 for them to ship me a new firebox or have a mobile welder come out and weld it up. (they included schematics on the weld job that needed done and also schematics on how to do the swap out myself) I called around to some weld shops and almost no one was interested in the job. I told the parent company SBI this and they said they would call around themselves, of course they found out the same thing I did, no one wanted to do it. They finally caved in and sent me the new firebox free of charge, i just had to do the install myself. Took me and another guy maybe an hour and 6 beers to do the job and i have a brand new firebox in my basement. Now I have a cracked firebox in my garage, not sure if i should sell it or scrap it or save for parts.  All in all it i am very pleased that it was covered under warrantee and I feel much safer burning in it. Hope this helps someone else out! -Pat


----------



## 3fordasho

All original Tundra/Heatmax will do this eventually, sooner if run hard and later if retrofitted with some of the aftermarket controls detailed earlier in this very thread.   I have two, one installed in 2015 to heat my 3400sqft house.  I fitted temp controller almost right away and it was crack free for the first four years and finally developed some hairline cracks that you have to shine a bright light on to see.  I assume they will get worse over time but as some have found they really don't effect performance or safety of the unit. (in my and some others opinion)  The cracks will not let smoke out into your living space if your chimney draft is in spec, only a little more combustion air in which the unit needs a little more anyway in most cases. (maybe not if you've got an over drafting chimney)
My second unit is installed in a shop and not run as much but is run a bit harder, so far no cracks on that unit yet.  This cracking issue is the reason there is a "Tundra II" - they redesigned how the firebox / heat exchanger is welded to allow the necessary expansion and contraction.   Overall the Tundra is a pretty good wood furnace and is better than anything the box stores offer now.  Only thing better is the Caddy Line by the same parent company and of course the Cadillac- Kuuma Vaporfire 100/200




Pwilli1989 said:


> I have had this stove for 4 years and have heated my 1500sq/ft split level home with it 100% (NE Ohio). I have been pretty pleased with the unit, it does a good job heating the 1966 home for the most part, I do have some complaints but I think i would have the similar issues with any wood stove. It really likes DRYYYY wood, if you're trying to burn wood that is even a little green/ wet it is a creosote making machine with very little heat output. It does have a hard time keeping the house warm when the temp gets down into the single digits but that's probably more of an insulation issue rather than the stove itself.  Anyway, the reason I am here is to give kudos to the company for what they did for me this winter. A couple of months ago, in the middle of the winter, I noticed a couple of cracks around the firebox which of course made me nervous. I took some pics and called the company. They are French Canadian so there is a little bit of a language barrier depending on who you talk to. Being that the firebox has a 5 year warrantee they were able to cover its repair/replacement. Glad this didnt happen next winter, I would have been out of luck. The first thing they did was have an engineer look at the cracks and they deemed it safe to burn while we figured out the details on how to get it fixed. After a few days, they offered me two options, pay them $400 for them to ship me a new firebox or have a mobile welder come out and weld it up. (they included schematics on the weld job that needed done and also schematics on how to do the swap out myself) I called around to some weld shops and almost no one was interested in the job. I told the parent company SBI this and they said they would call around themselves, of course they found out the same thing I did, no one wanted to do it. They finally caved in and sent me the new firebox free of charge, i just had to do the install myself. Took me and another guy maybe an hour and 6 beers to do the job and i have a brand new firebox in my basement. Now I have a cracked firebox in my garage, not sure if i should sell it or scrap it or save for parts.  All in all it i am very pleased that it was covered under warrantee and I feel much safer burning in it. Hope this helps someone else out! -Pat


----------



## Gearhead660

Looking to get feedback from all that have a Tundra in their shop/garage.  I have a 30 x 30 shop with 10' ceilings.  Converted old machine shed, has insulation but not airtight by any means.  Saw a used Tundra at a fair price.  Wondering if it would keep it warm or if I should stick with the plan of using an older wood furnace.


----------



## trx250r87

Gearhead660 said:


> Looking to get feedback from all that have a Tundra in their shop/garage.  I have a 30 x 30 shop with 10' ceilings.  Converted old machine shed, has insulation but not airtight by any means.  Saw a used Tundra at a fair price.  Wondering if it would keep it warm or if I should stick with the plan of using an older wood furnace.



I can't give feedback about heating a garage/shop but I do heat a 1700+ square foot ranch with cathedral ceilings plus basement in Northern WI with a Tundra. What temperature are you expecting to keep it at?

Eric


----------



## JRHAWK9

Gearhead660 said:


> Looking to get feedback from all that have a Tundra in their shop/garage.  I have a 30 x 30 shop with 10' ceilings.  Converted old machine shed, has insulation but not airtight by any means.  Saw a used Tundra at a fair price.  Wondering if it would keep it warm or if I should stick with the plan of using an older wood furnace.




IMO, you'd be better off with something which is capable of more raw BTU output.  You'd probably be heating the shop from an un-heated cold state and would want it heated up in short order.  This is going to take some serious BTU's to overcome the cold air temp inside the shop and all the thermal mass you'd have to heat up PLUS whatever heat loss the building has.  A newer furnace may be able to keep it heated (once heated), but it may not be capable of heating it up from an unheated state to a heated state in short order.


----------



## Gearhead660

trx250r87 said:


> I can't give feedback about heating a garage/shop but I do heat a 1700+ square foot ranch with cathedral ceilings plus basement in Northern WI with a Tundra. What temperature are you expecting to keep it at?
> 
> Eric


currently keep it around 60 with propane heater.  would love to have it 70-75.


----------



## Gearhead660

JRHAWK9 said:


> IMO, you'd be better off with something which is capable of more raw BTU output.  You'd probably be heating the shop from an un-heated cold state and would want it heated up in short order.  This is going to take some serious BTU's to overcome the cold air temp inside the shop and all the thermal mass you'd have to heat up PLUS whatever heat loss the building has.  A newer furnace may be able to keep it heated (once heated), but it may not be capable of heating it up from an unheated state to a heated state in short order.


Depends how much time I get to work out there, but would have frequent warm ups from a cold state.  Could use propane heater to help bring up temp on cold starts.  I was thinking same issue for the Tundra but wanted to get real user inputs.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gearhead660 said:


> Depends how much time I get to work out there, but would have frequent warm ups from a cold state.  Could use propane heater to help bring up temp on cold starts.  I was thinking same issue for the Tundra but wanted to get real user inputs.


If you use the pro-pain to boost the temp up from ambient then a Tundra might do fine for you...but without help it will take way too long IMO


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> If you use the pro-pain to boost the temp up from ambient then a Tundra might do fine for you...but without help it will take way too long IMO


This.  I have a Tundra in a 39x60' quonset style building - much higher than 10' at the peak.  Spray foamed  wood structure but leaky foundation, un-insulated concrete floor.  I keep it just above freezing with propane heat when not in there.  The Tundra would take forever to bring temps up so I run the 120k propane unit heater about 15 mn and then the wood pretty much can maintain.  I always have 5-10% left in my 125 gallon propane tank at the end of the heating season. (one fill per season).   I don't shoot for 70-75f though, usually 65F or so.


----------



## Gearhead660

3fordasho said:


> This.  I have a Tundra in a 39x60' quonset style building - much higher than 10' at the peak.  Spray foamed  wood structure but leaky foundation, un-insulated concrete floor.  I keep it just above freezing with propane heat when not in there.  The Tundra would take forever to bring temps up so I run the 120k propane unit heater about 15 mn and then the wood pretty much can maintain.  I always have 5-10% left in my 125 gallon propane tank at the end of the heating season. (one fill per season).   I don't shoot for 70-75f though, usually 65F or so.


70-75 may have been a bit much...68 ish at most.  Will have to see how much they are willing to deal on the Tundra.  Otherwise i have an old wood furnace i will fix up and run.


----------



## 3fordasho

Gearhead660 said:


> 70-75 may have been a bit much...68 ish at most.  Will have to see how much they are willing to deal on the Tundra.  Otherwise i have an old wood furnace i will fix up and run.


FYI -I have a new Tundra from a Menards closeout.  PM if interested, I'll only ask what I got into it which might be cheaper than your used unit.  Now that I've installed a boiler I don't think I'll ever have a use for it.  Pretty sure I have the updated front firebrick kit for it too from Drolet.  I'm near Mankato, MN.


----------



## trx250r87

@Gearhead660 check your private messages.

Eric


----------



## Gearhead660

3fordasho said:


> FYI -I have a new Tundra from a Menards closeout.  PM if interested, I'll only ask what I got into it which might be cheaper than your used unit.  Now that I've installed a boiler I don't think I'll ever have a use for it.  Pretty sure I have the updated front firebrick kit for it too from Drolet.  I'm near Mankato, MN.


The seller was asking $800.   Looks like you are about 4 hrs from me.


----------



## 3fordasho

Gearhead660 said:


> The seller was asking $800.   Looks like you are about 4 hrs from me.


I'd let it go for $600 but you'd have to come get it.  It's still on the pallet and I can load with the tractor or skid steer.


----------



## trx250r87

3fordasho said:


> I'd let it go for $600 but you'd have to come get it.  It's still on the pallet and I can load with the tractor or skid steer.


That's a great price! Someone should jump in this!


----------



## brenndatomu

3fordasho said:


> I have a new Tundra from a Menards closeout.


This is a T1?


----------



## 3fordasho

brenndatomu said:


> This is a T1?


correct


----------



## Gearhead660

3fordasho said:


> I'd let it go for $600 but you'd have to come get it.  It's still on the pallet and I can load with the tractor or skid steer.


I would kick myself for passing up on this, but just checked and you're 5 hrs from me...don't have the time for a long day trip current.  If I do get an open day, I will PM you to see if you still have it.


----------



## brenndatomu

Gearhead660 said:


> I would kick myself for passing up on this, but just checked and you're 5 hrs from me...don't have the time for a long day trip current.  If I do get an open day, I will PM you to see if you still have it.


Meh, I drove 8 hours for my VF100... 
That's when I also met @DoubleB and his lovely family...proper hosts they are!


----------



## 3fordasho

Gearhead660 said:


> I would kick myself for passing up on this, but just checked and you're 5 hrs from me...don't have the time for a long day trip current.  If I do get an open day, I will PM you to see if you still have it.


No problem, I'm not actively trying to sell it.


----------



## Gearhead660

3fordasho said:


> No problem, I'm not actively trying to sell it.


If you got the room, its nice to sit on things you may use later...I seem to have that problem anyways.


----------



## 3fordasho

The air lnlet damper motor failed on my shop Tundra.  I was wondering why it was taking so long to to heat up and why the glass was turning black.  I'd blame it on my controls causing it to actuate more often but it has many less hours than the one in the house and that one's still working.  Oh well, it's about to be replaced with a boiler set up in the next few days anyway.


----------



## trx250r87

3fordasho said:


> The air lnlet damper motor failed on my shop Tundra.  I was wondering why it was taking so long to to heat up and why the glass was turning black.  I'd blame it on my controls causing it to actuate more often but it has many less hours than the one in the house and that one's still working.  Oh well, it's about to be replaced with a boiler set up in the next few days anyway.


I had one fail within the 1st year of owning the furnace. SBI replaced it under warranty and was good ever since. If I recall correctly, they are rather pricy!

Eric


----------



## 3fordasho

trx250r87 said:


> I had one fail within the 1st year of owning the furnace. SBI replaced it under warranty and was good ever since. If I recall correctly, they are rather pricy!
> 
> Eric



Looks like about $140.  I have not pulled the cover, maybe the rod just got disconnected.


----------



## 3fordasho

The damper motor in my Tundra is a Honeywell M847A1031 which has been replaced by:
M847A1080 - Honeywell M847A1080 - 24V 2 Position Damper Actuator w/ Chain Linkage (supplyhouse.com) 
About $50 cheaper from Supplyhouse.com


----------



## Gbawol42

Little secondary burn porn. 

So much happier this year with the heatmax ii.  My stove never got this hot last year with the only 1 year seasoned wood.  This year the 2 year seasoned wood is night and day easier and hotter to burn.  Not only that but I'm getting almost 2 hours more in between reloads.

This is about 1.5 hours into the burn.  Plenum temp is around 145 degree and still rising.





Your browser is not able to display this video.


----------



## FixedGearFlyer

Gbawol42 said:


> Little secondary burn porn.
> 
> So much happier this year with the heatmax ii.  My stove never got this hot last year with the only 1 year seasoned wood.  This year the 2 year seasoned wood is night and day easier and hotter to burn.  Not only that but I'm getting almost 2 hours more in between reloads.
> 
> This is about 1.5 hours into the burn.  Plenum temp is around 145 degree and still rising.
> 
> View attachment 268625


Mmmm. So good. 

Have you put the temp controller mod on your HeatMax? (Sorry if I missed that somewhere in the annals of this thread!)


----------



## Gbawol42

FixedGearFlyer said:


> Mmmm. So good.
> 
> Have you put the temp controller mod on your HeatMax? (Sorry if I missed that somewhere in the annals of this thread!)



Oh yeah, temp controll and a timer.  Pretty much load and go.  The way it should be.

Still tweaking here and there but for the most part the fire part is dialed in.  Just messing with thoughts of installing an OAK and somehow connecting to my return vents.  Right now I just have the intake for the blower sucking from the ceiling, which is nice but I still feel there is too much heat in the basement.  I have a awkward setup in my basement where the stairs are and no easy way to run a line to my current return.


----------



## TDD11

3fordasho said:


> The air lnlet damper motor failed on my shop Tundra.  I was wondering why it was taking so long to to heat up and why the glass was turning black.  I'd blame it on my controls causing it to actuate more often but it has many less hours than the one in the house and that one's still working.  Oh well, it's about to be replaced with a boiler set up in the next few days anyway.


Funny you post that. I need to take a multimeter and confirm my damper motor also died. I noticed the glass turning black also - but admittedly, I thought it was from my wife loading the stove and not setting the timer like I taught her. 
Noticed when time for reloading though, that the damper is still closed on a cool stove. Checked before bed last night and the rod is connected. Thought I'd poke around with a meter before order a damper motor. 


3fordasho said:


> The damper motor in my Tundra is a Honeywell M847A1031 which has been replaced by:
> M847A1080 - Honeywell M847A1080 - 24V 2 Position Damper Actuator w/ Chain Linkage (supplyhouse.com)
> About $50 cheaper from Supplyhouse.com


Thanks for this link!


----------



## TDD11

One more update. I have had frustrations with smoke spillage. I had setup A in the diagram - so effectively I had 3 90° elbows in the system. I have a clean 26' liner, so that was not the problem. 
I bought an adjustable elbow connector for my chimney liner, to replace the tee snout connection. , and opened up the block wall where my chimney is, so that I could run a pipe at 45° to the bottom of the chimney liner. 
The setup drafts awesome now, and no more smoke spillage! I can rake ashes, shovel ashes out of the stove, etc, and not have spillage into the room. I do need to add a barometric damper now - as I have too much draft when flue temps are over 200°F.


----------



## trx250r87

TDD11 said:


> One more update. I have had frustrations with smoke spillage. I had setup A in the diagram - so effectively I had 3 90° elbows in the system. I have a clean 26' liner, so that was not the problem.
> I bought an adjustable elbow connector for my chimney liner, to replace the tee snout connection. , and opened up the block wall where my chimney is, so that I could run a pipe at 45° to the bottom of the chimney liner.
> The setup drafts awesome now, and no more smoke spillage! I can rake ashes, shovel ashes out of the stove, etc, and not have spillage into the room. I do need to add a barometric damper now - as I have too much draft when flue temps are over 200°F.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 268959


When my motor died on my T1 I think it still made noise but would not open the front damper door. It was either too weak to turn or something was stripped out internally.

Eric


----------



## 3fordasho

TDD11 said:


> Funny you post that. I need to take a multimeter and confirm my damper motor also died. I noticed the glass turning black also - but admittedly, I thought it was from my wife loading the stove and not setting the timer like I taught her.
> Noticed when time for reloading though, that the damper is still closed on a cool stove. Checked before bed last night and the rod is connected. Thought I'd poke around with a meter before order a damper motor.
> 
> Thanks for this link!




So I took the damper motor out of my house Tundra and swapped into my shop tundra.  Last time it was fired it worked but after the swap it was sticky and would not shut all the way.  I was able to get it to work by spraying some light lube on the gears in the damper motor.
I know it's a brand name (Honeywell) but it seems a little weak and marginal for this application.  Opening the damper is powered but close is all spring so it doesn't take much for it to bind up.


----------



## Mrpelletburner

TDD11 said:


> I had setup A in the diagram - so effectively I had 3 90° elbows in the system. I have a clean 26' liner, so that was not the problem.
> I bought an adjustable elbow connector for my chimney liner, to replace the tee snout connection. , and opened up the block wall where my chimney is, so that I could run a pipe at 45° to the bottom of the chimney liner.



I have a similar setup, with a tee snout connection and a 32' liner. I have 2 adjustable elbows between the unit and the wall which equals 1 90°.

What did you buy for the adjustable elbow and straight pipe to pass through the wall?


----------



## TDD11

3fordasho said:


> So I took the damper motor out of my house Tundra and swapped into my shop tundra.  Last time it was fired it worked but after the swap it was sticky and would not shut all the way.  I was able to get it to work by spraying some light lube on the gears in the damper motor.
> I know it's a brand name (Honeywell) but it seems a little weak and marginal for this application.  Opening the damper is powered but close is all spring so it doesn't take much for it to bind up.


Do you think the gears should be lubed annually? I have not pulled the damper motor - but the replacement is supposed to arrive today and I will open up the old one up. 


Mrpelletburner said:


> I have a similar setup, with a tee snout connection and a 32' liner. I have 2 adjustable elbows between the unit and the wall which equals 1 90°.
> 
> What did you buy for the adjustable elbow and straight pipe to pass through the wall?


I had 2 adjustable elbows , but they were probably 80-85° each.

I had bought my liner from Rockford Chimney, and they offer this adjustable elbow. 








						Adjustable Elbow for Flexible Liners
					

Our Flex Liner Elbows have laser welded seams for smooth adjusting and feature the quick connect band clamp for a secure fit every time. These elbows have a female end to accept the flex liner.




					www.rockfordchimneysupply.com
				




I also bought their telescoping pipe for the diagonal run. 








						Single Wall Black Telescoping Stove Pipe
					

Used to adjust desired height of single wall stove pipe. Rock-Vent telescoping sections eliminate time consuming cutting and crimping and easily adjust for a perfect fit. The small telescoping pipe adjusts from 18 in. to 30 in. The large telescoping pipe adjusts from 38 in. to 70 in.




					www.rockfordchimneysupply.com
				




Word of warning - the black telescoping pipe will not work with the Vogelzang Barometric Damper - hence why I don't have a damper installed yet.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> the black telescoping pipe will not work with the Vogelzang Barometric Damper


That VZ baro isn't worth the box it comes in!
Get a Field baro...only $5 more from SH...








						6-RC - Field Controls 6-RC - 6" Draft Regulator for Wood, Oil, or Coal
					

Field Controls 6-RC - 6" Draft Regulator for Wood, Oil, or Coal - The Field RC is furnished as standard equipment on many leading brands of oil or coal-fired heating equipment. It is calibrated to allow for easy adjustment to the furnace or boiler manufacturer?s specifications. Designed for...




					www.supplyhouse.com


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> That VZ baro isn't worth the box it comes in!
> Get a Field baro...only $5 more from SH...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6-RC - Field Controls 6-RC - 6" Draft Regulator for Wood, Oil, or Coal
> 
> 
> Field Controls 6-RC - 6" Draft Regulator for Wood, Oil, or Coal - The Field RC is furnished as standard equipment on many leading brands of oil or coal-fired heating equipment. It is calibrated to allow for easy adjustment to the furnace or boiler manufacturer?s specifications. Designed for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.supplyhouse.com


I have a VZ baro ( Menards Special  )and it seems to work fine. My setup is pretty simple though, out of the stove and up. But I do agree for the $5 more the field baro looks to better built.


----------



## brenndatomu

sloeffle said:


> I have a VZ baro ( Menards Special  )and it seems to work fine. My setup is pretty simple though, out of the stove and up. But I do agree for the $5 more the field baro looks to better built.


After using a Field baro, the VZ baro is like 
	

		
			
		

		
	






	

		
			
		

		
	
 compared to


----------



## 3fordasho

TDD11 said:


> Do you think the gears should be lubed annually? I have not pulled the damper motor - but the replacement is supposed to arrive today and I will open up the old one up.



Not sure - it seems like just messing with it could be detrimental.  Perhaps a light lube that won't attract dust build up would be ok.


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> That VZ baro isn't worth the box it comes in!
> Get a Field baro...only $5 more from SH...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6-RC - Field Controls 6-RC - 6" Draft Regulator for Wood, Oil, or Coal
> 
> 
> Field Controls 6-RC - 6" Draft Regulator for Wood, Oil, or Coal - The Field RC is furnished as standard equipment on many leading brands of oil or coal-fired heating equipment. It is calibrated to allow for easy adjustment to the furnace or boiler manufacturer?s specifications. Designed for...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.supplyhouse.com


I certainly don't disagree with you. The VZ is simple. Probably works decent as long as you keep it clean. I'm sure there are better baros. 

Do you have pictures of the Field baro installed? I guess I'm not 100% clear how you install it. Do you supply your own tee and install it in that?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I certainly don't disagree with you. The VZ is simple. Probably works decent as long as you keep it clean. I'm sure there are better baros.
> 
> Do you have pictures of the Field baro installed? I guess I'm not 100% clear how you install it. Do you supply your own tee and install it in that?


It does not come with a tee...but it is made to install into one, or it some with a collar that can be used to install it directly on 6" singlewall pipe after you cut a hole in it...the directions tell you how.


----------



## trx250r87

Here is what the internals of the Honeywell damper motor looks like. I tore mine apart after installing the replacement and never figured out what exactly caused it to fail. It was difficult to disassemble without damaging. I wouldn't recommend messing with it.


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> It does not come with a tee...but it is made to install into one, or it some with a collar that can be used to install it directly on 6" singlewall pipe after you cut a hole in it...the directions tell you how.


I saw that it comes with a collar, but the collar looks to be galvanized - and I thought that was a no-no on stove pipe installs?


----------



## laynes69

TDD11 said:


> I saw that it comes with a collar, but the collar looks to be galvanized - and I thought that was a no-no on stove pipe installs?


The collar is out from the tee. There's a little flow around the baro to keep it cool. I've had both types and I agree the fields is hands down superior and very accurate. I recently installed a field and it keeps clean unlike the other.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> The collar is out from the tee. There's a little flow around the baro to keep it cool. I've had both types and I agree the fields is hands down superior and very accurate. I recently installed a field and it keeps clean unlike the other.


This ^ ^ ^
I've installed them both ways...in a tee and using their collar...both fine.


----------



## TDD11

I'll order one.. as I need to get a baro installed and increase my burntime. So I just need a standard 6" stove tee to install it?


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I'll order one.. as I need to get a baro installed and increase my burntime. So I just need a standard 6" stove tee to install it?


Yup, a standard tee (male bottom, female top and side) will work fine.


----------



## Gbawol42

So I had a little time this morning and a good burn going.  Starting testing static pressure in the plenum.  Found out it was only at around .1.  To get to the recommended .2 all 6 of my dampers needed to be closed almost 3/4 of the way.  Is this normal to you guys?  Kinda worried about gravity dumping heat with them closed that much during a power outage.  Maybe its just the way my heating ducts are laid out?


----------



## brenndatomu

Gbawol42 said:


> So I had a little time this morning and a good burn going.  Starting testing static pressure in the plenum.  Found out it was only at around .1.  To get to the recommended .2 all 6 of my dampers needed to be closed almost 3/4 of the way.  Is this normal to you guys?  Kinda worried about gravity dumping heat with them closed that much during a power outage.  Maybe its just the way my heating ducts are laid out?


Was it heating the house OK? If so, leave it the way it was...chasing .2" SP is a snipe hunt with the duct system in many houses...and yes, I'd worry about the gravity heating like that too...


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> Was it heating the house OK? If so, leave it the way it was...chasing .2" SP is a snipe hunt with the duct system in many houses...and yes, I'd worry about the gravity heating like that too...



Kinda just messing around to see if there is any difference in heat output to my registers.  So, yes, it was heating my house ok, just seeing if its any better after putting static pressure to manufacture specs.  

I think I'll open them little, maybe aim between .15 and. 175 and just see if there any noticeable difference.


----------



## TDD11

Received and installed the Field draft control. I don't know that it is that much better/nicer than the VZ. I don't like that it has a giant gap even when closed - I have some smoke/ash spillage again when raking coals and reloading. The VZ has a small gap, maybe a uniform 1/16" gap. The FC gap is closer to 3/16"-1/4" and not uniform.

It does reduce my peak draft down to the .08" WC like I hoped. But also reduces my minimum draft due to the gap. Curious if this is what you guys are seeing also? 

I'm tempted to make/add a lip so that it closes off better.


----------



## FixedGearFlyer

TDD11 said:


> Received and installed the Field draft control. I don't know that it is that much better/nicer than the VZ. I don't like that it has a giant gap even when closed - I have some smoke/ash spillage again when raking coals and reloading.
> 
> I'm tempted to make/add a lip so that it closes off better.



In my own experience with the Fields baro, I don't find the gap to have a meaningful or impactful influence on my minimum draft. Even without a fire (i.e., a cold furnace), I see -.02 to -.03" W.C. draft (with the Fields installed) thanks to 2/3 of our 32' chimney being inside the heated envelope of our house. 

My Vogelzang baro constantly got stuck (both open and closed) because of the tighter tollerances, while my Fields has worked flawlessly for going on 10 years.

A Fields baro warning, though - the draft markings for the counter weight are very (very!) approximate. I'm currently pulling -0.05" W.C. with the counter weight backed off almost to the -0.02" mark. (Using the correct side for my orientation and with the baro level and plumb).


----------



## sloeffle

TDD11 said:


> Received and installed the Field draft control. I don't know that it is that much better/nicer than the VZ. I don't like that it has a giant gap even when closed - I have some smoke/ash spillage again when raking coals and reloading. The VZ has a small gap, maybe a uniform 1/16" gap. The FC gap is closer to 3/16"-1/4" and not uniform.


Can't say that I'm too impressed with the build quality of your damper. My VZ damper has a consistent 1/32" ( if that ) gap around the whole damper.

@brenndatomu - I thought the Field damper was the iPhone 12 of barometric dampers ? Based off of the picture that @TDD11 posted, the build quality looks like the Motorola click to talk phone I had in the late 90's


----------



## trx250r87

sloeffle said:


> Can't say that I'm too impressed with the build quality of your damper. My VZ damper has a consistent 1/32" ( if that ) gap around the whole damper.
> 
> @brenndatomu - I thought the Field damper was the iPhone 12 of barometric dampers ? Based off of the picture that @TDD11 posted, the build quality looks like the Motorola click to talk phone I had in the late 90's




If it were the iPhone version it would ONLY connect to an Apple flue pipe, Apple stove and it would have a cracked glass door!


----------



## sloeffle

trx250r87 said:


> If it were the iPhone version it would ONLY connect to an Apple flue pipe, Apple stove and it would have a cracked glass door!


I was referring to the picture of the phone ( iPhone ) that he posted previously ( Post #3302 ) when we he was comparing a VZ to a Field baro. I'm not interested in turning this thread into a phone debate.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Received and installed the Field draft control. I don't know that it is that much better/nicer than the VZ. I don't like that it has a giant gap even when closed - I have some smoke/ash spillage again when raking coals and reloading. The VZ has a small gap, maybe a uniform 1/16" gap. The FC gap is closer to 3/16"-1/4" and not uniform.
> 
> It does reduce my peak draft down to the .08" WC like I hoped. But also reduces my minimum draft due to the gap. Curious if this is what you guys are seeing also?
> 
> I'm tempted to make/add a lip so that it closes off better.


I'm not sure if it is the way the picture was taken or what, but that appears to be a larger gap than I have...but still isn't enough of a leak to make you lose a noticeable amount of draft...unless your chimney is super marginal...what are the chimney specs again?
Why are you running your draft so high? -0.04 to -0.06" is what is spec'ed.


sloeffle said:


> Can't say that I'm too impressed with the build quality of your damper. My VZ damper has a consistent 1/32" ( if that ) gap around the whole damper.


I dunno...maybe VZ makes different models...the one I looked at in the store looked like it was made from a Bushes Beans can...spray painted black and a hinge tack welded onto the "flapper"...no adjustment of any kind, didn't operate smoothly...I couldn't get it back into the box fast enough.

And just so y'all are aware, those Field dampers need to be dead nuts level or the flapper will always work its way to the low side and could hang up...if level they are buttery smooth.


----------



## andym

The factory markings on my FC damper are almost dead accurate. I have a much shorter chimney however (21' all exterior.) From my own experience I couldn't get my vogelzang to do anything other than stay shut or flop open. It's on my scrap pile if someone wants it. It would have made a good match for a Shelter furnace! LOL!


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> The FC gap is closer to 3/16"-1/4" and not uniform.


I just checked mine...more like 1/8"


----------



## sloeffle

brenndatomu said:


> I dunno...maybe VZ makes different models...the one I looked at in the store looked like it was made from a Bushes Beans can...spray painted black and a hinge tack welded onto the "flapper"...no adjustment of any kind, didn't operate smoothly...I couldn't get it back into the box fast enough.



I think they sell multiple versions

Link to the damper that Menards currently sells.
Link to the damper that I have. Coincidentally, I bought it as Menards about 8 or so years ago.


----------



## andym

sloeffle said:


> I think they sell multiple versions
> 
> Link to the damper that Menards currently sells.
> Link to the damper that I have. Coincidentally, I bought it as Menards about 8 or so years ago.


The one you have is the same one I bought at Menards recently. I'm glad yours works for you. Wish I could say the same. I'm quite happy with the fields version now.


----------



## andym

I should add that I've got nothing against Vogelzang as a company. I owned one of their small stoves for almost 8 years. It was decent quality for the (very low) price.


----------



## TDD11

sloeffle said:


> Can't say that I'm too impressed with the build quality of your damper. My VZ damper has a consistent 1/32" ( if that ) gap around the whole damper.
> 
> @brenndatomu - I thought the Field damper was the iPhone 12 of barometric dampers ? Based off of the picture that @TDD11 posted, the build quality looks like the Motorola click to talk phone I had in the late 90's


Yeah, I could not remember off hand but 1/32 could be right. They are pretty tight and certainly LOOK a lot better than the FC damper. 


brenndatomu said:


> I'm not sure if it is the way the picture was taken or what, but that appears to be a larger gap than I have...but still isn't enough of a leak to make you lose a noticeable amount of draft...unless your chimney is super marginal...what are the chimney specs again?
> Why are you running your draft so high? -0.04 to -0.06" is what is spec'ed.
> 
> I dunno...maybe VZ makes different models...the one I looked at in the store looked like it was made from a Bushes Beans can...spray painted black and a hinge tack welded onto the "flapper"...no adjustment of any kind, didn't operate smoothly...I couldn't get it back into the box fast enough.
> 
> And just so y'all are aware, those Field dampers need to be dead nuts level or the flapper will always work its way to the low side and could hang up...if level they are buttery smooth.


I have a 26' 5.5" interior chimney. I was targeting .06-.08"WC because I had misremembered the stove specs and thought that was the desired range. I have adjusted the Fields damper for a max of .06"WC now. 
I wanted to get a draft regulator installed because it would run well over .12"WC without. This year in general, and even with this Fields regulator installed, It seems like my burn times are shorter this year than previous winters.  It's a good thing I am working from home so far this winter, because I don't know that I'd have many coals left after 10 hours right now. 

The VZ damper I had, I had installed 4 years ago when I still had a clay lined chimney. I removed it from the system because of smoke spillage issues with the door open, and was trying to eliminate any draft leaks. I kept the VZ damper though, and was going to reinstall it with my new setup recently, but could not get it's ID to accept the telescoping pipe OD. I think I bought it from Menards by the way. 

The fields is definitely very smooth! 



brenndatomu said:


> I just checked mine...more like 1/8"


I wish!!


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> I wish!!


If you are having smoke spillage issues now, can you throw one of these magnetic register covers over the BD right before you open the door to load?








						Frost King Magnetic Vent Covers MC815 - The Home Depot
					

The Thermwell Magnetic Vent Covers are white and can be cut to size. They block floor, wall and ceiling metal vents. The covers also fit large side vents. They can be painted to match the color of your



					www.homedepot.com


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> If you are having smoke spillage issues now, can you throw one of these magnetic register covers over the BD right before you open the door to load?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frost King Magnetic Vent Covers MC815 - The Home Depot
> 
> 
> The Thermwell Magnetic Vent Covers are white and can be cut to size. They block floor, wall and ceiling metal vents. The covers also fit large side vents. They can be painted to match the color of your
> 
> 
> 
> www.homedepot.com


That's a great idea, I was thinking of making something to cover the damper when reloading. I did not think magnetic but I like it.


----------



## bjfarland1988

Does anyone know how to replace the vermiculite baffle in the tundra? Does it need to be disassembled to some extent?


----------



## brenndatomu

Just pop the first 3 secondary air tubes out...baffle can be carefully maneuvered out.


----------



## bjfarland1988

brenndatomu said:


> Just pop the first 3 secondary air tubes out...baffle can be carefully maneuvered out.



To do that just twist them and remove?


----------



## brenndatomu

bjfarland1988 said:


> To do that just twist them and remove?


Yes, the procedure is in the manual...and make sure the tubes go back in where they came out of...they are not all the same.


----------



## andym

bjfarland1988 said:


> To do that just twist them and remove?


In my experience they are not real easy to rotate. Make sure you are turning the right direction and put some force on it if necessary. A vise grip can help but don't clamp too hard.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> In my experience they are not real easy to rotate.


I've had tubes out of 3...all came out by hand...but yes, have also read of some having to use mechanical advantage.


----------



## andym

Only one I did was mine when it was brand new. It seemed like the grooves( or channels or whatever ) on the tubes weren't formed quite right. After some adjusting they went back in easier. It was difficult enough that I checked the manual twice to make sure I was doing it correctly.


----------



## Gbawol42

Anyone know offhand what the wattage for running the Tundra 2 (or heatmax 2)?  I am researching running my furnace on solar and seeing if it's worth it or not.  Just figuring it would be nice to not worry about power outages running on solar.  Plus the blower pretty much runs all day, so I feel it would pay for itself eventually.


----------



## brenndatomu

My T1 ran right around 200 watts (190?) with blower on low (T2 would be similar) it would take a looong time to pay for a solar setup, unless your rates are very high.


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> My T1 ran right around 200 watts (190?) with blower on low (T2 would be similar) it would take a looong time to pay for a solar setup, unless your rates are very high.



This was a concern for sure.  You know just one of the ideas roaming around my head while drinking my morning coffee.  I didn't think the watts were that high.  However I still like the idea of power outages not effecting it.


----------



## 3fordasho

Gbawol42 said:


> This was a concern for sure.  You know just one of the ideas roaming around my head while drinking my morning coffee.  I didn't think the watts were that high.  However I still like the idea of power outages not effecting it.


I did a battery backup for power outages - a group 27 deep cycle battery and a pure sine inverter/transfer switch/charger is what you need, I think my total cost was ~$400 for that piece of mind.   The battery only lasted ~4 years but I never checked the water level (my bad) and now the new battery is sealed so we'll see how that goes.   I think this size battery would run the furnace a good 6 hrs or more, long enough to get though a heating cycle.

As far as off grid solar backup, you would need more batteries (at least 3-grp 27 deep cycle- maybe more) an pure sine inverter/transfer switch (~$300) solar charge controller, and the solar panels/mounting/wiring.  All for something that cost me ~$20 a month on the electric bill (.18/kwh) during heating season.


----------



## Gbawol42

My only gripe with this furnace.

You guys have any tips/secrets for getting the coals to burn down faster for that last 2 hours of the burn?  I pretty much rake forward and leave the damper open, just wanting some faster burning during this stage.

I see they addressed this issue on the new heat commander.


----------



## brenndatomu

Do like the stove guys do...rake the coals forward and put some pine, or other "gopher" wood on the pile, leave damper open. This burns the coals down, you get some usable heat in the process, and the pine does not add to the coal pile.


----------



## Gbawol42

brenndatomu said:


> Do like the stove guys do...rake the coals forward and put some pine, or other "gopher" wood on the pile, leave damper open. This burns the coals down, you get some usable heat in the process, and the pine does not add to the coal pile.



Hmm never thought to add wood to get to burn faster.  

Of course I'll have to start stocking some pine, it's it's something I keep on hand.

I do have last year's Christmas tree sitting outside behind my shed...........


----------



## brenndatomu

Box elder works pretty well too...I'm sure there are plenty of different species that would do the trick...pretty much anything that is not known for good coaling...


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> Do like the stove guys do...rake the coals forward and put some pine, or other "gopher" wood on the pile, leave damper open. This burns the coals down, you get some usable heat in the process, and the pine does not add to the coal pile.


I use this trick some. 2x4 cutoffs work well, as does any kind of construction scraps if you have access. Many discarded pallets are also made of softwood. Generally if I have a large bed of coals that's all the heat I need. Granted we've not had much real cold weather this winter....yet!


----------



## Gbawol42

andym said:


> I use this trick some. 2x4 cutoffs work well, as does any kind of construction scraps if you have access. Many discarded pallets are also made of softwood. Generally if I have a large bed of coals that's all the heat I need. Granted we've not had much real cold weather this winter....yet!



Yup I hear ya.  My question comes up today since it's 20 degrees out and 30mph winds.  Feels like single digits.  First time that just the heat from the coals wasn't enough.   Just needed that little bit more omph.


----------



## brenndatomu

Making sure the heat exchanger tubes are clean will help when you have cold weather like that too...


----------



## TDD11

Well, the Honeywell M847A1080 damper motor that I ordered on December 10th from Supplyhouse failed already. Of course it had to happen when the forecast finally turned cold. And their website shows that they are Out of Stock.


----------



## trx250r87

TDD11 said:


> Well, the Honeywell M847A1080 damper motor that I ordered on December 10th from Supplyhouse failed already. Of course it had to happen when the forecast finally turned cold. And their website shows that they are Out of Stock.


There's one on eBay for $145 shipped. 

Eric


----------



## maple1

3fordasho said:


> I did a battery backup for power outages - a group 27 deep cycle battery and a pure sine inverter/transfer switch/charger is what you need, I think my total cost was ~$400 for that piece of mind.   The battery only lasted ~4 years but I never checked the water level (my bad) and now the new battery is sealed so we'll see how that goes.   I think this size battery would run the furnace a good 6 hrs or more, long enough to get though a heating cycle.
> 
> As far as off grid solar backup, you would need more batteries (at least 3-grp 27 deep cycle- maybe more) an pure sine inverter/transfer switch (~$300) solar charge controller, and the solar panels/mounting/wiring.  All for something that cost me ~$20 a month on the electric bill (.18/kwh) during heating season.



A little inverter generator and a gallon of gas can go a long way too.


----------



## TDD11

trx250r87 said:


> There's one on eBay for $145 shipped.
> 
> Eric


I contacted Supplyhouse since it is under warranty, they think mid-next week I should receive a replacement. Local forecast is looking very cold for about a week, starting on Friday. 8 straight nights with lows below 14°F, with 5 in a row below 5°F. Damper picked the perfect time to fail. 

I am still running the stove, with a clip to hold the damper open - as long as I remember to close it we should be OK.


----------



## trx250r87

TDD11 said:


> I contacted Supplyhouse since it is under warranty, they think mid-next week I should receive a replacement. Local forecast is looking very cold for about a week, starting on Friday. 8 straight nights with lows below 14°F, with 5 in a row below 5°F. Damper picked the perfect time to fail.
> 
> I am still running the stove, with a clip to hold the damper open - as long as I remember to close it we should be OK.



Damn, that's a heat wave! Lows of -3, -11, -15, -15, -10, -9 and -4 Friday through Thursday here in Wisconsin.


----------



## TDD11

trx250r87 said:


> Damn, that's a heat wave! Lows of -3, -11, -15, -15, -10, -9 and -4 Friday through Thursday here in Wisconsin.


I'd have bought a Kuuma, and have a better setup to supplement with propane, if we regularly saw those temperatures.


----------



## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> Well, the Honeywell M847A1080 damper motor that I ordered on December 10th from Supplyhouse failed already. Of course it had to happen when the forecast finally turned cold. And their website shows that they are Out of Stock.


Boy, that doesn't sound right...have you checked the transformers voltage output?
I'd be half tempted to put one of those bimetallic spring setups on it like the amish do on the Caddys...supposedly works pretty darn well.


----------



## andym

trx250r87 said:


> Lows of -3, -11, -15, -15, -10, -9 and -4 Friday through Thursday here in Wisconsin.


Yeah, but it's a dry cold! Hahaha!


----------



## andym

brenndatomu said:


> I'd be half tempted to put one of those bimetallic spring setups on it like the amish do on the Caddys..


On Saturday,  i actually just talked to an Amish friend of mine who has run a Caddy for ?10? years. Gravity ducted of course. He said he tried a bimetallic spring on his but couldn't seem get it adjusted to his satisfaction. He really likes his Caddy though. Him and a few others have had Caddys for quite a while. It's one of the reasons I got a HMX2.


----------



## brenndatomu

andym said:


> On Saturday,  i actually just talked to an Amish friend of mine who has run a Caddy for ?10? years. Gravity ducted of course. He said he tried a bimetallic spring on his but couldn't seem get it adjusted to his satisfaction. He really likes his Caddy though. Him and a few others have had Caddys for quite a while. It's one of the reasons I got a HMX2.


I'm sure the secret sauce is getting the right spring...and then getting it mounted in the right spot too...adjusting it wouldn't do much other than to make it run hotter or colder....if I were to do this I would want to get the spring/kit from a dealer that is familiar with this mod, and can get the right one and tell you exactly where to put it...IIRC the fellow I was talking to about it said his neighbor had this setup and it worked flawless..._I think_ it came from Cherry Valley stove shop in Andover Ohio.


----------



## Case1030

trx250r87 said:


> Damn, that's a heat wave! Lows of -3, -11, -15, -15, -10, -9 and -4 Friday through Thursday here in Wisconsin.



I switched it to Fahrenheit for my American friends.

Just retired the Tundra to backup duty. Did about 3 years comfortably for the house only at these tempuratures. Many reasons I switched to hydronic is to keep the mess in the garage, heat multiple buildings, and infloor heat/Hotwater heatplate options.

Did a full clean on the boiler to make sure everything will perform properly in the cold weather.

Next year upgrading to a Polar G3 to heat my greenhouse year round. Been doing alot of research lately on setups and options. Really got to break down everything to get a full picture.


----------



## laynes69

brenndatomu said:


> I'm sure the secret sauce is getting the right spring...and then getting it mounted in the right spot too...adjusting it wouldn't do much other than to make it run hotter or colder....if I were to do this I would want to get the spring/kit from a dealer that is familiar with this mod, and can get the right one and tell you exactly where to put it...IIRC the fellow I was talking to about it said his neighbor had this setup and it worked flawless..._I think_ it came from Cherry Valley stove shop in Andover Ohio.


A bi-metallic spring wouldn't work on a furnace with a blower. The face of the furnace would always remain too low and the damper would remain open. Though it does say alot for the Caddy's and the amish. They must be efficient for the amish are known to make the most of everything.


----------



## brenndatomu

laynes69 said:


> A bi-metallic spring wouldn't work on a furnace with a blower. The face of the furnace would always remain too low and the damper would remain open.


I dunno...never done it, but it sounds like its a pretty common mod amongst the amish...enough so that that shop keeps a kit in stock.
My impression was that the spring was not under the air jacket...on the front somewhere.
The fellow I was talking with says that his amish neighbor absolutely loves his non electric Caddy.


----------



## laynes69

What I'm saying is since the Amish dont use a blower, the front of the furnace would remain much hotter. I'm curious how they are set up.


----------



## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Boy, that doesn't sound right...have you checked the transformers voltage output?


When the original damper motor failed in early December, I believe it was 26-28v. I have not checked it this time yet.


----------



## Gearhead660

Figured I would post here first, since most watchers have  Drolet furnaces or experience with them.  I have a Tundra 2 and was thinking about heating my DHW, possibly with a sidearm exchanger.  Anyone out there doing this?  If so, what's your setup?


----------



## andym

I've also entertained the same idea, but I'm still getting mine broke in. I'll be watching for others responses. I assume you have studied the DHW option that the Max Caddy offers?


----------



## Gearhead660

andym said:


> I've also entertained the same idea, but I'm still getting mine broke in. I'll be watching for others responses. I assume you have studied the DHW option that the Max Caddy offers?


Yes.  I noticed that there was the option with the Caddy.


----------



## trx250r87

Gearhead660 said:


> Figured I would post here first, since most watchers have  Drolet furnaces or experience with them.  I have a Tundra 2 and was thinking about heating my DHW, possibly with a sidearm exchanger.  Anyone out there doing this?  If so, what's your setup?



From Tundra 2 specs: "Delivered heat output rate (min. to max.): 12,635 BTU/h (3.7 kW) to 44,857 BTU/h (13.1 kW)"

I'm too dumb to try and figure this out but my natural gas tankless water heater is 15,000 BTU min and 160,000 BTU max and I think my Trane natural gas furnace is about 60,000 BTU. I would think that you would either spend too much energy heating water and not able to provide enough heat into the house or the cooling of the cold water would contribute to a decent amount of creosote.

Also, the manual for the Caddy says "pre-heating option", not full blown heating. 

Eric


----------



## JRHAWK9

trx250r87 said:


> From Tundra 2 specs: "Delivered heat output rate (min. to max.): 12,635 BTU/h (3.7 kW) to 44,857 BTU/h (13.1 kW)"
> 
> I'm too dumb to try and figure this out but my natural gas tankless water heater is 15,000 BTU min and 160,000 BTU max and I think my Trane natural gas furnace is about 60,000 BTU. I would think that you would either spend too much energy heating water and not able to provide enough heat into the house or the cooling of the cold water would contribute to a decent amount of creosote.
> 
> Also, the manual for the Caddy says "pre-heating option", not full blown heating.
> 
> Eric



I had the water coil option on my Kuuma for 2-3 years.  We could take 4 showers all back to back before the water heated kicked in.  It preheated the water in a separate tempering tank to feed the water heater.  It worked great, but like you mentioned, once I stopped using it after the tempering tank started to leak (it was an old electric water heater), I immediately noticed the house heated easier.  I did not replace the tank and I have since removed the water coil from the exterior back wall of the firebox.


----------



## trx250r87

JRHAWK9 said:


> I had the water coil option on my Kuuma for 2-3 years.  We could take 4 showers all back to back before the water heated kicked in.  It preheated the water in a separate tempering tank to feed the water heater.  It worked great, but like you mentioned, once I stopped using it after the tempering tank started to leak (it was an old electric water heater), I immediately noticed the house heated easier.  I did not replace the tank and I have since removed the water coil from the exterior back wall of the firebox.
> 
> View attachment 274902



I upgraded my electric 50 gallon tank water heater almost a year ago to tankless. I kept the old unit as a tempering tank about 4' from my wood furnace. Now the water entering my tankless is @77* rather than 45* from my well.  I don't know if this helps much but it didn't cost me anything and I can still flip the breaker on to the tank heater if I ever need it. 


Eric


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## brenndatomu

I heat my water indirectly through waste heat off the VF100 in the winter via a HPWH (heat pump water heater)
Bonus is that it de-humidifies the basement in the summer too...enough so that I don't have to run another dehumidifier.
I have been comparing the difference over the past year (+) that its been installed, I'm running about $15/mo less on my electric bill vs the old electric water heater.


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## Gearhead660

I'm not looking to heat it only with the Tundra, just assist the water heater and increase the temp coming into the water heater.   Family of 5 and a kid that loves to take baths...


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## salecker

I wanted to add DHW to my system...
The guy who helped design my system said "Don't"
Because i lived in a house with 2 women's,plus i have my own septic system in clay.
Keep the electric i was told,any water you heat with your wood heat isn't free,it will take more wood,which means more work.Having an endless supply of hot water isn't something you want with 2 womens in the house because they will take advantage of it and have super long showers,which isn't the best thing for a septic sytem in clay.
So i happily kept the electric tank.
Just my story,do what you want.


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## andym

brenndatomu said:


> I heat my water indirectly through waste heat off the VF100 in the winter via a HPWH (heat pump water heater)
> Bonus is that it de-humidifies the basement in the summer too...enough so that I don't have to run another dehumidifier.
> I have been comparing the difference over the past year (+) that its been installed, I'm running about $15/mo less on my electric bill vs the old electric water heater.


Thats my plan as well in a year or two. The room my electric water heater is in has lots of exposed ductwork which makes it warmer that s storage room needs to be. Perfect situation for HPWH when you also consider the fact we run a dehumidifier all  summer long.
For me this option makes more sense than spending any money to make a preheater.


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## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Boy, that doesn't sound right...have you checked the transformers voltage output?


29v no load. What do you think? Received my replacement damper motor but hesitant whether to use it or replace transformer. 
The 24v transformer for my Totaline outputs 26v.


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## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> 29v no load. What do you think? Received my replacement damper motor but hesitant whether to use it or replace transformer.
> The 24v transformer for my Totaline outputs 26v.


Yeah they aren't regulated, so they will read high with no load...check it with motor running?


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## TDD11

brenndatomu said:


> Yeah they aren't regulated, so they will read high with no load...check it with motor running?


26.9v under load.


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## brenndatomu

TDD11 said:


> 26.9v under load.


Does seem a little high...I wonder if others could check theirs for comparison...I'd do it, but don't have the Tundra anymore...


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## TDD11

I called Honeywell they said the supply voltage range is 20v to 30v. I don't think it is a voltage issue. I may measure amp draw this weekend, although the damper seems to open and close freely. 

Perhaps I just got a bad one and I am reading into this too much. 

I've been pretty tempted to retrofit a Totaline controller onto my old Silver Dollar Saver stove in my workshop.


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## answ3r

I have a Heatmax build number 676 and I've been think about adding something that actually controls the burning temp instead of the dumb thermostat for a while now. Then I started researching and found you guys !

I really like the idea of the PID controller opening / closing the damper based on flue temperature. But if I buy a controller, I would also like to be able to control fan speed. 

I wonder what king of controller could do that ? 

Or maybe plug the fan in high speed then wire in a rheostat to slow it down ?


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## sloeffle

answ3r said:


> I have a Heatmax build number 676 and I've been think about adding something that actually controls the burning temp instead of the dumb thermostat for a while now. Then I started researching and found you guys !
> 
> I really like the idea of the PID controller opening / closing the damper based on flue temperature. But if I buy a controller, I would also like to be able to control fan speed.
> 
> I wonder what king of controller could do that ?
> 
> Or maybe plug the fan in high speed then wire in a rheostat to slow it down ?


I'd recommend an Auber 2342 with an integrated relay. They provide support, and they have clear directions. If you aren't familiar with PID controllers there are some good YouTube videos on how to get one setup.

The fan speed controller has been discussed thoroughly in this thread.


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