# New heat pump



## Zeus (May 12, 2018)

hey guys I'm not usually posting here, mostly in the pellet mill. The reason for my visit here is that I purchased a new Samsung mini split 12,000 btu, and was hoping to get some info on it good or bad thanks in advance.


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## STIHLY DAN (May 12, 2018)

I have never heard of a samsung HP. So no help here.


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## Zeus (May 12, 2018)

I believe Samsung bought quiet side and just changed the name. It has a pretty good warranty and I have a very good dealer to service, just thought I might find some tips here or info on this model.


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## peakbagger (May 13, 2018)

Never heard of one either. Is it is a "hyper heat model" optimized for low temperature operation?


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2018)

Where in PA are you?

Down in my corner, they should work no muss no fuss.  Keep the outdoor unit from getting buried in snow.  That's it.

If you want to know how much energy its using, put an efergy on it.


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## begreen (May 13, 2018)

Zeus said:


> hey guys I'm not usually posting here, mostly in the pellet mill. The reason for my visit here is that I purchased a new Samsung mini split 12,000 btu, and was hoping to get some info on it good or bad thanks in advance.


Back in 2006 when we were in the market for a HP system, Samsung was the only brand stocked locally. I was impressed by the quality of workmanship. No idea how well they stand up, but they've been making mini-splits for a while.


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## Zeus (May 13, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Never heard of one either. Is it is a "hyper heat model" optimized for low temperature operation?


It's rated down to -5 im testing this unit in my master bedroom if I'm impressed with it I'm gonna get the hole house done with a new unit they have that's suppose to be good to -25 .with my weather probly won't use my new harman anymore. I didn't want to jump in with both feet at the cost of these units til I tried things. If everything goes well I'll have the hole house done and my master will have its own zone.


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## Zeus (May 13, 2018)

Maybe you guys that have experience with hp,at what temp do you guys think I'll have to use additional heat to help it in the winter,if it has a rating down to -5


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## Zeus (May 13, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> Where in PA are you?
> 
> Down in my corner, they should work no muss no fuss.  Keep the outdoor unit from getting buried in snow.  That's it.
> 
> If you want to know how much energy its using, put an efergy on it.


I'm about an hour from Pittsburgh


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## begreen (May 13, 2018)

Zeus said:


> Maybe you guys that have experience with hp,at what temp do you guys think I'll have to use additional heat to help it in the winter,if it has a rating down to -5


What's important is how many btus it's putting out at -5F. And what the room or area's hat loss is at that temp.


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2018)

Most units will put out some heat down to the rated temp.  Will it be useful? maybe not.

Hard to say without knowing your heating loads.  Your 'trying it' approach is good.

To keep the outdoor unit out of the snow, its good to mount them on the side of the house, or on legs.


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## woodgeek (May 13, 2018)

With my heat pumps, the efficiency drops so much at lower temps (when the need for BTUs climbs) that its a double whammy in January and February.

January and February are close to 2/3rds of my annual heating bill.


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## Zeus (May 13, 2018)

Thanks for the info guys,Ill be sure to let you guys know how things go with this unit, it seems to cool very well and even, all corners of the room seem to be at the same temp. I will keep you up to date as winter comes,those are the answers I'm looking for. I'm sure I'll hit you with more questions later I've only had it for a week.


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## begreen (May 13, 2018)

I would expect to need supplemental heat at very low outdoor temps. How much depends on how well insulated and sealed the room is and how much glass area it has.


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## peakbagger (May 14, 2018)

Keep the Harmon ! The heat pump loses efficiency and the amount of heat it puts out definitely drops as the temps drop. The temperature of the air coming out of the unit also drops. Its still warm but not hot. The unit also defrosts more often as the temps go down. My experience is that if its sunny out I can run it down 20 deg F, If its snowing out I usually run it over 30 deg F. I usually use a cheap electric space heater for spot heating below those temps. The other thing to keep in mind is down at those lower temps set it at one temp and forget it. It will take hours to heat a room up from a colder temp.

Make sure the outdoor unit is mounted quite high off the ground on the side of the house where the prevailing winds do not blow. Its good to put a slanted roof over the unit to keep snow from getting into the unit making sure the roof is spaced well above the unit so there is plenty of air flow. Some companies sell snow baffles that shield air flow in from the sides, I think if its located correctly they are not needed but if it becomes and issue they look easy to add.


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## Zeus (May 14, 2018)

begreen said:


> I would expect to need supplemental heat at very low outdoor temps. How much depends on how well insulated and sealed the room is and how much glass area it has.


The room has been all redone from the studs new insulation ,Windows,door. So I'm hoping for the best,only draw back is the ceiling is high time will tell.


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## Zeus (May 14, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Keep the Harmon ! The heat pump loses efficiency and the amount of heat it puts out definitely drops as the temps drop. The temperature of the air coming out of the unit also drops. Its still warm but not hot. The unit also defrosts more often as the temps go down. My experience is that if its sunny out I can run it down 20 deg F, If its snowing out I usually run it over 30 deg F. I usually use a cheap electric space heater for spot heating below those temps. The other thing to keep in mind is down at those lower temps set it at one temp and forget it. It will take hours to heat a room up from a colder temp.
> 
> Make sure the outdoor unit is mounted quite high off the ground on the side of the house where the prevailing winds do not blow. Its good to put a slanted roof over the unit to keep snow from getting into the unit making sure the roof is spaced well above the unit so there is plenty of air flow. Some companies sell snow baffles that shield air flow in from the sides, I think if its located correctly they are not needed but if it becomes and issue they look easy to add.


Hey peak what type of Hp do you have and how low of a temp is yours rated for?


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## peakbagger (May 14, 2018)

I have Mitsubishi Hyper Heat rated down to -12 F. It starts to de-rate below zero. Down around -10 the air coming out is not very warm and unless its cold and dry its runs the defrost cycle quite often which is noisy. The utilities in Maine were giving rebates on mini splits and I think they only accepted Fujitsu units.

Note the amount of heat in the air for the unit to grab is just plain low, no matter what brand you buy it doesn't change the physics. If you want to design for low temp operation then you are looking at far more expensive more complicated ground source heat pump. It pulls heat out the ground which is usually 40 to 50 degrees, great idea but required drilled holes or heat transfer loops plus the air handlers and ducts make them expensive to install.

Be careful some salesmen confuse how low a temp a unit can run with how low a temp it can produce useful heat. I think Fujitsu advertises that their unit doesn't shut down like the Mitsubishi units (at -12F) but the reality is it may run but is not producing viable heat.

Since you are in PA this is probably all academic as I expect it rarely gets down that low.


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## Zeus (May 14, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> I have Mitsubishi Hyper Heat rated down to -12 F. It starts to de-rate below zero. Down around -10 the air coming out is not very warm and unless its cold and dry its runs the defrost cycle quite often which is noisy. The utilities in Maine were giving rebates on mini splits and I think they only accepted Fujitsu units.
> 
> Note the amount of heat in the air for the unit to grab is just plain low, no matter what brand you buy it doesn't change the physics. If you want to design for low temp operation then you are looking at far more expensive more complicated ground source heat pump. It pulls heat out the ground which is usually 40 to 50 degrees, great idea but required drilled holes or heat transfer loops plus the air handlers and ducts make them expensive to install.
> 
> ...


Good info there one more rookie question how often do you have your heat pump serviced or checked over?


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## peakbagger (May 14, 2018)

Not yet. I have an older mini split AC unit that is 10 years old and still running great with no service, my heat pump is about 5 years old and its fine. As long as its installed correctly there really is no service except cleaning the filters in the inside unit. The inside unit sits up high so its less prone to getting crap in it. Effectively its the same parts as a refrigerator, no real serviceable parts. I expect the outdoor unit coils could get crapped up at some point if its in a dusty area. A lot of folks mount them on pads on the ground and that is an invitation to get hit with a lawn mower or loaded up with grass clippings. Mine is about 4 feet off the ground hanging off the wall attached to a unistrut bracket screwed into my framing. The tubing is run under a special snap on vinyl "gutter" so its not exposed.  

The reason I went with Mitsubishi is they have great rep for reliability, but do cost a bit more. I did my own install and paid a tech to charge the unit so I have lost the long term warranty that a dealer offers. I have talked to several service techs and they all say if they are installed correctly, the vast majority of repairs is to due to external abuse by the owner which is not covered by the long term warranty. The majority of failures is due to something hitting the unit or the hoses. They can ice up in winter and if it happens there is not a lot you can do except wait for warm day. Fujitsu offers a pan heater and I think some Mitsubishi units may offer an optional one. It just keeps the pan under the outdoor coil warm enough that any water dropping down on it will flow out the drain. It has only happened once on mine and expect I caused it by hitting it with a snowblower discharge. 

If they stop working, the service tech checks the pressures and swaps out the unit at some high markup, they dont open them up to work on parts as they arent really designed to be serviced. The cost to have them installed is usually double the cost of the unit so they can offer a nice warranty assuming that most of the time the problem is billable due to abuse. The other thing that can take them out is a voltage spike from the utility or power quality issues, this is not specific to mini split, any appliances and equipment in the house have the same vulnerability. I have a midnight solar whole house surge suppressor https://www.altestore.com/store/enc...MIraLKob6F2wIViWSGCh2h3Af2EAQYAyABEgJJq_D_BwE  to deal with spikes from the incoming utility line if they occur. 

I have heard that mice and rodents can sometimes get in the house via the tubing run between the indoor and outdoor units. Definitely make sure that the gaps around the tubing are sealed off as its also a potential source of infiltration.

Definitely run a dedicated circuit to the minisplit and make sure you dont have any issues with your incoming line (if you have an old 60 AMP service I would definitely check to see if you have an voltage sag when you hit it with a big load). Mini Splits have variable speed motors in them so they dont draw any significant surge current but worth checking.


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## begreen (May 14, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> I have Mitsubishi Hyper Heat rated down to -12 F. It starts to de-rate below zero. Down around -10 the air coming out is not very warm and unless its cold and dry its runs the defrost cycle quite often which is noisy. The utilities in Maine were giving rebates on mini splits and I think they only accepted Fujitsu units.


It looks like lots of units are eligible for rebate in Maine. This is a handy list for anyone in the market, though I'm not sure how current it is.
https://www.efficiencymaine.com/docs/Eligible-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump-Criteria-and-List.pdf

edit: says updated 3/28/18


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## woodgeek (May 15, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Since you are in PA this is probably all academic as I expect it rarely gets down that low.



I would think that NW PA would be as cold as northern NH more or less, not tropical like me.


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## peakbagger (May 15, 2018)

Erie PA has a 9.7 degree F 99% confidence dry bulb temp, Northern NH is closer to -12


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## woodgeek (May 15, 2018)

Erie is on the lake, what about pittsburgh?  Maybe its like SE NH.


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## Zeus (May 15, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> I would think that NW PA would be as cold as northern NH more or less, not tropical like me.


You can't be that much warmer your not that far lol


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## Zeus (May 15, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Erie PA has a 9.7 degree F 99% confidence dry bulb temp, Northern NH is closer to -12


Get a good heat pump for that low of temp lol


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## STIHLY DAN (May 22, 2018)

Heat pumps are great. I would NEVER have them as the only source of heat. I do not want the heart of heat to be outside. Mice are an issue, weather is an issue. Plus parts can take weeks to get, thats why they change them out rather than repair. A $150 board fails and it might take 2 weeks to get in, How many people can go 2 weeks with no heat? So they spend 4 grand for a new condenser. Also the outside coil should be cleaned at least every other year, some locations every year, maybe twice a year for HP.


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## woodgeek (May 23, 2018)

Mostly agree....those two weeks in January with strip heat backup can get pretty expensive.

That said, I hose off my outdoor coil every now and then, at it looks the same before and after.  Not buying the 2X a year.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 23, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> Mostly agree....those two seeks in January with strip heat backup can get pretty expensive.
> .


Which is why a solid fuel stove(wood ,coal ,pellet)stove and a heatpump are a good combination. Anyone can care for a solid fuel stove a few weeks a year. Also a wood stove is a good backup heat source in a no power situation without a generator or with an unreliable generator.


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## begreen (May 23, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> Mostly agree....those two weeks in January with strip heat backup can get pretty expensive.
> 
> That said, I hose off my outdoor coil every now and then, at it looks the same before and after.  Not buying the 2X a year.


It's always good to have a backup heat source for outages, especially in areas where they are more common, though we lived 10 yrs in Seattle at our last house without one and we were fine. The combo of a good wood stove and a heat pump is close to perfect for our heating needs.

As for the service, our heat pump has been great. Almost zero service other than air filter changes.  FWIW the outdoor coil has never been cleaned. Guess after 12 years I should wash it down. Mice, have never been an issue and we used to be besieged by mice and rats before the new foundation was put in.


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## STIHLY DAN (May 23, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> Mostly agree....those two weeks in January with strip heat backup can get pretty expensive.
> 
> That said, I hose off my outdoor coil every now and then, at it looks the same before and after.  Not buying the 2X a year.





begreen said:


> It's always good to have a backup heat source for outages, especially in areas where they are more common, though we lived 10 yrs in Seattle at our last house without one and we were fine. The combo of a good wood stove and a heat pump is close to perfect for our heating needs.
> 
> As for the service, our heat pump has been great. Almost zero service other than air filter changes.  FWIW the outdoor coil has never been cleaned. Guess after 12 years I should wash it down. Mice, have never been an issue and we used to be besieged by mice and rats before the new foundation was put in.



All situations are different I agree. I installed a unit for the neighbor, After the AC season was over I had a visit, Noticed the coil was covered in crude, you could not see the fins at all. That unit would not heat for crap in winter if not cleaned. Pollen and dandelion feathers were the culprit.  I have also seen a plugged coil that LOOKED new. Using coil cleaner and spraying water from the INSIDE out, Left a trail of mud/coffee for 50 ft. Your surroundings is what determines cleaning, not use.


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## Zeus (May 24, 2018)

STIHLY DAN said:


> All situations are different I agree. I installed a unit for the neighbor, After the AC season was over I had a visit, Noticed the coil was covered in crude, you could not see the fins at all. That unit would not heat for crap in winter if not cleaned. Pollen and dandelion feathers were the culprit.  I have also seen a plugged coil that LOOKED new. Using coil cleaner and spraying water from the INSIDE out, Left a trail of mud/coffee for 50 ft. Your surroundings is what determines cleaning, not use.


Good stuff guys keep the info flowing,would it be better to blow out the coils with air compressor the guy who installed the unit suggested not to use the pressure washer to clean the outside unit?


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## begreen (May 25, 2018)

Outdoor condenser coils cleaning directions:

Make sure the unit has been turned off at the source (shut-off switch or breaker box)
Clear the area around the condenser (you may want to put on gloves for this)
Remove the outer heat pump cover (you may need a screwdriver for this)
Remove the top grille and fan (if you can)
Wipe down the condenser coils with condenser coil cleaner or a solution of soap and water
Use a garden hose to wash it from the outside (hit the fins head on, not at an angle)
Use a fin comb to straighten out any bent consider fins
Put the top grille and heat pump cover back into place
Turn power back on and enjoy the fruits of your labor!
https://blog.happyhiller.com/blog/how-to-clean-heat-pump-condenser-coils


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## STIHLY DAN (May 29, 2018)

Zeus said:


> Good stuff guys keep the info flowing,would it be better to blow out the coils with air compressor the guy who installed the unit suggested not to use the pressure washer to clean the outside unit?


This is wrong, you want to spray from the inside out. Push the crap out the way it came in. otherwise you can compress it in the coil. Coil cleaner is a must.


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## Highbeam (May 30, 2018)

A pressure washer will just smash the fins over and block the coil from ever working. Be gentle, remove the obstruction, don’t create a bigger problem.

Even car radiators and ac condensers are often ruined by some idiot with a pressure washer.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jun 1, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> A pressure washer will just smash the fins over and block the coil from ever working. Be gentle, remove the obstruction, don’t create a bigger problem.
> 
> Even car radiators and ac condensers are often ruined by some idiot with a pressure washer.


Electric pressure washers work great for this.


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## Zeus (Jun 2, 2018)

STIHLY DAN said:


> This is wrong, you want to spray from the inside out. Push the crap out the way it came in. otherwise you can compress it in the coil. Coil cleaner is a must.


So take off the front cover use the hose with nozzle off the hose spraying the coil from inside out?now I'm assuming that you don't want to get the fan motor wet?


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## STIHLY DAN (Jun 3, 2018)

Zeus said:


> So take off the front cover use the hose with nozzle off the hose spraying the coil from inside out?now I'm assuming that you don't want to get the fan motor wet?


Take the front cover off, spray with nozzle on, 1st spray with coil cleaner using a garden sprayer. Its ok to get the motor wet but easier to clean the coil if you remove it. 2 or 4 screws at the bottom of the bracket and the whole thing comes off.


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## Zeus (Jun 3, 2018)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Take the front cover off, spray with nozzle on, 1st spray with coil cleaner using a garden sprayer. Its ok to get the motor wet but easier to clean the coil if you remove it. 2 or 4 screws at the bottom of the bracket and the whole thing comes off.


Thanks stihly I will take a look at the outside unit tomorrow see how the fan comes off so I know how to do it when the time comes.


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## Zeus (Jun 4, 2018)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Take the front cover off, spray with nozzle on, 1st spray with coil cleaner using a garden sprayer. Its ok to get the motor wet but easier to clean the coil if you remove it. 2 or 4 screws at the bottom of the bracket and the whole thing comes off.


What do you guys think of this cleaner found it at lowes or do you recommend something better?


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## Zeus (Jun 5, 2018)

I have to say I'm really enjoying my heat pump, this time of year it's chilly in the morning and hot in the afternoon. It maintains the set temp 24/7 don't have to touch a thing it's always a comfortable temp. So far happy with my purchase.


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## woodgeek (Jun 5, 2018)

Zeus said:


> I have to say I'm really enjoying my heat pump, this time of year it's chilly in the morning and hot in the afternoon. It maintains the set temp 24/7 don't have to touch a thing it's always a comfortable temp. So far happy with my purchase.



And the COP is about 4 in both directions.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jun 6, 2018)

Zeus said:


> View attachment 227077
> 
> 
> What do you guys think of this cleaner found it at lowes or do you recommend something better?



That will work fine. spray it on the outside of the coil, if you have any left, spray the inside with the rest.


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## Zeus (Jun 7, 2018)

I'll have to keep an eye on the coils to see how often to clean,pretty shiny right now since it's still new. I'm hoping I'll still be impressed when the cold temps come this winter, although I'm hoping winter comes late this year.


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