# Git R Done boys.......



## heaterman (Mar 29, 2011)

Just a general comment for all of you who are thinking about pulling the trigger on any wood boiler this summer.

DO IT NOW! DO NOT WAIT!!

Prices for steel are going through the roof as we speak. I know Garn is already dealing with a steel surcharge and I am aware of a couple other lines that are talking 10%+ price increases in the very near future also. I just priced out a 2.5MMbtu steam boiler for a commercial job we'll be doing this summer and the manufacturer will not even provide a firm price until a deposit of 25% is in their hand. They will give me a price range to work with for 14 days and after that all the numbers are void. They told me to anticipate at least  8-10% and that is a chunk of change on a $50K item. 
Steel pipe is starting to act like copper, which might as well be made out of unobtainium from what I can see. (just paid $.78 per foot for a 250' roll of 12-2 MC cable at the supply house) 
 One of my suppliers just sent out a new price sheet for malleable iron fittings that shows a jump of about 16% across the board. When I called about it they told me it looks like there will be another increase within 60 days for nearly the same amount. After that they do not know where it will be. 
From what I can see right now, prices for anything made from steel or iron will be up 20% by July.


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## afblue (Mar 29, 2011)

This is the message I saw in my email this morning. So my sir what you are saying is 100% correct. Good thing I put my $$ down on mine when I did

*Hello All,

I wanted to take the time and let everyone know that prices for our boiler line are going up in 2011.  This significant price increase is due to the rising cost of steel, which is the highest component cost in our products.

This announcement was sent to ensure anyone considering a purchase this year, can call their local dealer and place an order before the end of this month.
FYI â€“ Our typical customer saved on average $3000 in the 2010/11 heating season in fuel costs.  Using half the wood with clean burning technology, they heated their homes at 75 degrees all winter long.


Feel free to contact me with any questions!

Thank You,
Joseph Jensen
Northeast Territory Manager
Pro-Fab Group of Companies


joseph.jensen@profabgroup.com

www.profabgroup.com*


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## heaterman (Mar 29, 2011)

Well Yahhh! I'm not just trying to blow smoke up everyone's backside.  ...........(pun intended)

Seriously, these are some of the biggest price increases I have seen since the 20% inflation years of the early 80's. It's not going to be fun and I am reeeeeally wondering how our government is  calculating their inflation numbers right now. Real inflation is far above the measly 2% or whatever drivel they are claiming.


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## EricV (Mar 29, 2011)

unobtainium, that's a good reference.  (you have to be a sci-fi nut to get that one)  

I think we are going to see this happen with all goods that are mined, farmed, manufactured or transported with diesel, which is EVERYTHING in our world.  Everything is affected by fuel prices.

Unless you grow chickens in your backyard and grow veggies hang on, the world is changing.


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## Frozen Canuck (Mar 29, 2011)

Have to agree, if you have a project of any sort get it done, or at least purchase all the materials NOW 

I was at the suppliers yesterday pricing a few jobs & in general materials I had purchased for last years fall/winter jobs were up 20%. Had time to talk with the owner & his suppliers are telling him to lay in as much stock as he can NOW, as they cannot give him a firm price more than 10 days out & the price is always higher than the last. 

He asked if I would build him more storage when the frost is gone & he made the point of saying the DAY the frost is out. He then asked how much unused storage I had at the farm & would I rent it to him until I could build him more on his site. No problem there, we have known each other for over 20 years & he is an important part of our business. 

Understand; the guy is making preparations for serious inflation in the very near future, as he feels that what he buys now is going to be worth a lot more in very short order. Think this year not next.

This confirms what I noticed driving around the area this winter, fiberglass insulation plant 1.5 hours from me has a huge inventory, I have never seen the inventory that large & they had a contractor on site building open sided storage sheds, which they would fill as soon as the columns to support the roof were in place, the contractor used a large crane to place the roof iron as the ground was now covered in insulation. Talk about being pushed by the customer!  This was repeated shed after shed, these sheds were the size of aviation hangers. Site size; about a section of land, rail siding of course & everything going full blast in the dead of winter. Same story for the plywood & OSB plants here, massive inventory & been going flat out all winter.

Most of these are large companies; Weyerhauser, Dow Chemical, John Mannsville etc. So I doubt this is a fools gamble by any of them. They are all making preparations for serious inflation in the very near future, by building massive inventory NOW that they will of course sell into an inflated market later.

My local supplier gave me a list of material that he expects to double in price this year. Almost everything one can think of when building a structure from the cement in the foundation to the shingles on the roof. In short the more fossil energy it takes to make it, the faster it will double in price & from there who knows?  Inflation is a tougher one for an individual to deal with as wages usually dont keep pace. 

One add on to the above: If you have a mortgage of any size; ie. borrowed money, pay that off first. If interest rates get above 20% as they did here in the 80's you will want to be out of debt totally.

Personally I am not considering any long term borrowing at this time on any level. Working hard on getting the business full of assets that are debt free. Same goes for the home front.

Sit down, buckle up & hang on tight. Big time inflation train headed our way IMHO. If you make preparations for it BEFORE it gets here you have a much better chance of not getting ground up in the gears.

Either way it will be one heck of a ride!  Trains that have the potential to be run aways always are!


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## turbotech (Mar 29, 2011)

The new President handed out money to the financial crooks, paid for 30% of people's new stoves, a big chunk of people's cars, paid for town's that didn't save enough to up keep their roads.
When you give out free money it can't go on forever. We all knew big inflation was coming. Don't believe the lies the government will tell about it being small. Add the product that Japan needs and you will see it is going to be one of the largest jumps ever.

Yes, I agree on ordering now and storing product if you have the space.


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## Fsappo (Mar 29, 2011)

Yup, the prices are rolling in now.  Just had to call some old quotes up and give them expiration dates on the prices.


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## bigburner (Mar 29, 2011)

Here's the difference between now and the 80"s - Money had some investment value - 12% to 20% CD's  Now it's worth nothing. Hyper inflation will hit and with any luck that will drive out the new Jimmy Carter and elect a new Roland Regan. We don't stock anything, just pieces & parts left over from projects. If I did have some equipment that I bought cheap I would end up selling it at a discount to give me an edge. The problem is no one is spending a dime they don't have too!


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## DaveBP (Mar 29, 2011)

> Hyper inflation will hit and with any luck that will drive out the new Jimmy Carter and elect a new Roland Regan.



Would that be the same 'Roland Reagan' that more than doubled the national debt during his administration? And had more White House appointees convicted of felony corruption than any administration before or since? 

You're counting on politicians (of either party) to save us?

Is roller coaster inflation anything new or surprising?


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## Pat53 (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm still sticking to my thesis that commodity prices for things like steel, copper, aluminum and even oil will be much lower 2 years from now. The deflationary "juggernaut" that will engulf the western world will crush demand for most commodities and other assets. China is a major bubble that is going to implode as well, and demand from there will also collapse.... you heard it here first ...  be prepared !!


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## heaterman (Mar 29, 2011)

DaveBP said:
			
		

> > Hyper inflation will hit and with any luck that will drive out the new Jimmy Carter and elect a new Roland Regan.
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At least the crooks were prosecuted and convicted in that administration.........


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## heaterman (Mar 29, 2011)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> I'm still sticking to my thesis that commodity prices for things like steel, copper, aluminum and even oil will be much lower 2 years from now. The deflationary "juggernaut" that will engulf the western world will crush demand for most commodities and other assets. China is a major bubble that is going to implode as well, and demand from there will also collapse.... you heard it here first ...  be prepared !!



So you're thinking worldwide depression? There is indeed a case to be made for that scenario but I think hyperinflation will precipitate that event. Makes a guy scratch his head a little. In an inflationary environment, a person is not going to get hurt badly (all other things being equal) if he has debt that is fixed in terms of interest rates. In fact debt is probably the best place to be if you can continue to service it because you are paying it off with "cheaper" dollars.  In a time of major deflation however, where assets of all types become less valuable there is no safe haven and any debt will kill you.  At least that's the way I understand things.............

Personally, I don't think the government (IE: Ben Bernanke) will allow deflation to occur. Or at the very least he will fight it tooth and nail. He knows that there is no way the government/USA could ever dig itself out of the debt we are in should things deflate. Default by the USA and darn near everyone in it would be the only option.


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## Pat53 (Mar 29, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Pat53 said:
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Yes, in an inflationary environment debt is manageable. In a deflationary environment debt is a killer. I think the deflation comes first. The amount of worldwide debt is absolutely mind-boggling, and much of it has to be refinanced soon. You're allready seeing what is going on in Europe. Austerity and cuts in Government services/jobs. Same thing is happening here now at all levels of Government, teachers getting whacked EVERYWHERE. You can't really have inflation without WAGE inflation, and that only happens when there is a lack of labor, we currently have a huge surplus of labor. Real wages have been falling for decades.

The commodity inflation you are seeing now is all because of the reflation efforts of Bernanke and Co and a weakening US $. That will reverse at some point. My guess is when Congress is forced to enact some serious cuts in Government spending (soon) the markets will roll over, and may even plunge, all asset classes are likely to get hammered, especially commodities. Government spending is the only thing keeping the game going. When it ends, don't be the last one looking for a chair !!

Pat


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## benjamin (Mar 29, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> One add on to the above: If you have a mortgage of any size; ie. borrowed money, pay that off first. If interest rates get above 20% as they did here in the 80's you will want to be out of debt totally.



Poor Frozen Canuck, you forget that we southerners have fixed rate loans guaranteed by our government, and we all know that the government just prints more money when it needs to so we'll never feel the pain of inflation like other countries that have to actually do something about their fiscal problems.


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## flyingcow (Mar 29, 2011)

This could turn into an Ash Can mess in a hurry.  


Thanks for the heads up heaterman. All of the equipment in trucking has been climbing in price, partly due to high steel prices. This is only going to get worse.


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## Frozen Canuck (Mar 29, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> Frozen Canuck said:
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We have the fixed rate option here as well (agreement between bank & lender) no govt involved. However if you look on page 57 (small print) you will find clauses for forced re-negotiation, should "unforseen" circumstances arise. In other words they will move the loan to a variable rate. Agree you need to stop printing money south of 49, or you may become the next "peso" currency (a bad thing for sure).


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## woodsmaster (Mar 29, 2011)

It's usually cheaper to buy a boiler in the spring regardless of what the market does. I paid about $700.00 more by buying mine in the fall.


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## heaterman (Mar 29, 2011)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> It's usually cheaper to buy a boiler in the spring regardless of what the market does. I paid about $700.00 more by buying mine in the fall.



This spring may soon be the exception to that rule if I'm reading things correctly. Hate to think of what fall will look like if things stay as they are.


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## Frozen Canuck (Mar 30, 2011)

All products are going to cost more as virtually everything is made/moved using oil. 

Dwindling supplies of oil just as China & India (that's 2 billion new customer's/user's of oil) begin to demand/need more is only going to drive the price of oil up. 

In the past there has been a measure of predictability with these cycles, now that everything has at it's base the need for oil, we can probably throw the old rule books out the window & try to figure out the new reality. 

Seems to me the only currency/commodity that will have predictable value range is oil, everything else will just follow along for the ride. 

One thing I know, many customer's will not be able to afford the service calls when it costs $400 or more just to fill up the service truck! BTW my cost for same service truck fill up now is $159, so we dont have that far to go.


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## heaterman (Mar 30, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> All products are going to cost more as virtually everything is made/moved using oil.
> 
> Dwindling supplies of oil just as China & India (that's 2 billion new customer's/user's of oil) begin to demand/need more is only going to drive the price of oil up.
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I not only "feel your pain", I experience it also. Pulled up to the pump with the van and the pickup last week, filled both and left the place minus $208.00 That was two days worth of travel. OUCH


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## Frozen Canuck (Mar 30, 2011)

Indeed Heaterman: 

It adds up to a lot of extra money on a longer 60-90 day job. 

Customer winds up shaking their head as they get NO extra value for $100/day fuel expense. 90 day job is $9000 just to move people around & thats just the cost of fuel.


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## sdrobertson (Mar 30, 2011)

Are the scrape prices going to follow the same upswing?


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## Frozen Canuck (Mar 30, 2011)

sdrobertson said:
			
		

> Are the scrape prices going to follow the same upswing?




Without a doubt, scrap business will take off as oil climbs. All that old farm equip will be worth more as scrap than it was the day it was made.


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## heaterman (Mar 30, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

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Yah!  My uncle just paid $5300 for a complete overhaul/refurb on an old WD-45 Allis Chalmers that his dad/my grandpa paid $600 for brand new in the 1940's or thereabouts.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Mar 30, 2011)

Frozen Canuck said:
			
		

> Indeed Heaterman:
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> It adds up to a lot of extra money on a longer 60-90 day job.
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> Customer winds up shaking their head as they get NO extra value for $100/day fuel expense. 90 day job is $9000 just to move people around & thats just the cost of fuel.



The end of the global economy .... yeaaahaaaaaaaaaa.
Back to the past, make and buy stuff in your backyard.
Or .... do I miss something?


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## shortline (Mar 30, 2011)

PassionForFire&Water; said:
			
		

> Frozen Canuck said:
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Last time this country had a depression half of the male population still worked the land.  Knew what hard work really was and knew how to garden, how to dress out a hog or chicken for supper.  Back than there still was a general respect for the rule of law.  You and I have a backyard that we would love to spend all day in -- taken care of our family.  But I'm afraid we are going to end up back to early American history -- where we are going to have to band together in small communities and build forts to protect our families from the savages (city folk) who are starving because the drive thrus have all closed.


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## Pat53 (Mar 30, 2011)

shortline said:
			
		

> PassionForFire&Water; said:
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BINGO !


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## rkusek (Mar 30, 2011)

This all makes me glad I built my home in 2008 and have it financed at 4.6%.  I need to check the paperwork though for what Frozen Canuck is saying.  Everything I Googled says the rate cannot be changed, I hope he's wrong.  I think I will buy the few remaining items I need to finish out my storage which isn't much.  The boiler will pay itself much quicker if electric rates skyrocket.  

Has anyone watched that video EndofAmerica2011.com?  It ends as sales pitch for his financial products but unfortunately I do think there is a lot of truth in what he is predicating.  I have bought some silver and am considering liquidating about a 1/4 of my 401k, paying the taxes & penalties to buy more gold & silver and some items that would allow me to grow my own food. My wife and I are going to plant a garden this year and I'm even considering a greenhouse tied into the boiler as well.  I don't want to overreact but I don't want to be unprepared either.  I have read that during a crisis they can lock down your 401k's, prevent you from owning gold & silver, and probably freeze bank accounts too.  I do believe all short term interest rates (ie. credit cards, equity loans, car loans) will go through the roof.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## bpirger (Mar 30, 2011)

All caused by the financial institutions and the government they control....remove the laws of protection, I mean deregulate, and the theivery just went nuts....brought the world to its knees...and now they are all reaping recording profits and the rest of us just get by.  PhD and all, it doesn't matter, we get the short end of the stick...and it is stuck someplace dark.  I agree that it won't change in the US until there is bloodshed.  The politicians are directly benefiting, so there will be no change from them.  I can only hope that a "sensible" middle of the road "tea bagger party" will emerge and get a new round of people elected who will pass bills to regulate, place the laws back on the system, change campaign financiing permanently, and bring the nation back to the people.  If only everyone, left and right, could drop their pet issues for a decade to right the nation in the proper direction, for all the people, and get rid of the massive influence wall street (all the money) has on the laws. This is why things are not as bad north of the border, the laws remained to some extent, and the raping of the people didn't happen.  Look at Iceland....ignore all US politics.  Deregulation came along and within 10 years the countries banks had buried themselves so deep it brought the entire small nation down.  The US has done the same thing....they just had a big brother that was there to provide handouts....and now they are reaping the returns even moreso than before.  It is sickening....and hopefully everyone will wake up and stop all the BS that says these corporatacries are OK, becuase they create the jobs, and blah blah blah.  They all need to be reigned in, and limited, and things need to be kept under control.  Amazing how our nation became the superpower it was during the 50-70's when things were held in check by a legal system...not yet succummed to the dollars of the wealthy and the banks/corporations that wanted to **** all.  Not only did we grow trememndously, we truly thrived under these conditions.  So what is it coming to?  More wealth getting sucked to the top.   I don't see how it is any differnt than the Kings of the fuedal times....just have more kings now.  And all us peasants, even those that are highly skilled, educated, and good at what we do...we are peasants.  The scraps falling off the Kings table are a little bit bigger than 400 years ago....peole are satiated with there big flat screens and little toys....but looking at the real statistics of securty and wealth creation, it is all going straight to the top.  You can't work hard anymore and break through the barrier.  And indeed, the poster above was right.  With the glut of people looking for work, the corporations aren't going to spend to hire...they are going to sit on their cash.  Productivity is up higher than ever, becuase people are afraid of being replaced, so they do more for less.  And yet half the country says unions are the worst thing around....as we head back into the time of the Kings.  It is very sad...and I do worry for my children.  i really wish politicians would read the constitution and focus back on the people.  Obama has indeed been a major disappointment...as he has bought right in to the status quo in DC.  Most disppointing indeed!


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## Pat53 (Mar 30, 2011)

bpirger said:
			
		

> All caused by the financial institutions and the government they control....remove the laws of protection, I mean deregulate, and the theivery just went nuts....brought the world to its knees...and now they are all reaping recording profits and the rest of us just get by.  PhD and all, it doesn't matter, we get the short end of the stick...and it is stuck someplace dark.  I agree that it won't change in the US until there is bloodshed.  The politicians are directly benefiting, so there will be no change from them.  I can only hope that a "sensible" middle of the road "tea bagger party" will emerge and get a new round of people elected who will pass bills to regulate, place the laws back on the system, change campaign financiing permanently, and bring the nation back to the people.  If only everyone, left and right, could drop their pet issues for a decade to right the nation in the proper direction, for all the people, and get rid of the massive influence wall street (all the money) has on the laws. This is why things are not as bad north of the border, the laws remained to some extent, and the raping of the people didn't happen.  Look at Iceland....ignore all US politics.  Deregulation came along and within 10 years the countries banks had buried themselves so deep it brought the entire small nation down.  The US has done the same thing....they just had a big brother that was there to provide handouts....and now they are reaping the returns even moreso than before.  It is sickening....and hopefully everyone will wake up and stop all the BS that says these corporatacries are OK, becuase they create the jobs, and blah blah blah.  They all need to be reigned in, and limited, and things need to be kept under control.  Amazing how our nation became the superpower it was during the 50-70's when things were held in check by a legal system...not yet succummed to the dollars of the wealthy and the banks/corporations that wanted to **** all.  Not only did we grow trememndously, we truly thrived under these conditions.  So what is it coming to?  More wealth getting sucked to the top.   I don't see how it is any differnt than the Kings of the fuedal times....just have more kings now.  And all us peasants, even those that are highly skilled, educated, and good at what we do...we are peasants.  The scraps falling off the Kings table are a little bit bigger than 400 years ago....peole are satiated with there big flat screens and little toys....but looking at the real statistics of securty and wealth creation, it is all going straight to the top.  You can't work hard anymore and break through the barrier.  And indeed, the poster above was right.  With the glut of people looking for work, the corporations aren't going to spend to hire...they are going to sit on their cash.  Productivity is up higher than ever, becuase people are afraid of being replaced, so they do more for less.  And yet half the country says unions are the worst thing around....as we head back into the time of the Kings.  It is very sad...and I do worry for my children.  i really wish politicians would read the constitution and focus back on the people.  Obama has indeed been a major disappointment...as he has bought right in to the status quo in DC.  Most disppointing indeed!



Well said, and spot on. I too fear greatly for my kids. I truly believe another major revolution is going to happen within the next few years, and it won't be pretty. Bernanke and Co have done nothing for the average guy on the street, the only ones benefiting are the big banks and the Wall Street big shots, all by design. Taxpayers are now on the hook for another $4 trillion in just the last 3 years. When this all blows up its going to be hell !


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## bpirger (Mar 30, 2011)

I'd be really surprised it is happened that soon.  Most folks aren't aware of the truth, they just live with the scraps falling from the table.  Bigger TV's, new phones, more texting, it just seems to appease everyone.  When they start listening and paying just a little attention, they start with the BS pumped to them by the so called news people and pundits.  OH, GE creates the jobs...they shouldn't pay taxes.  Last I knew nearly all of the GE sites are empty with all the jobs overseas with cheap labor.  Sure, a few design houses still around....but they are getting smaller too as India engineers will work for $10K a year...a very handsome salary indeed in India.  Yet we give them breaks....and it continues across all the top corporations.  Yet the pundits convince those who aren't really interested in reading enough, thinking enough, to dig into the truth....that they should all be exempt.  Let's blame it on those high end, fancy, union teachers and govt employees.  Yeah, most of the teachers I had or my kids have really are mediocre.  Many should be removed.  A handful should be praised.  But they all target these folks as the big problem in society.  So while there are no doubt some people making 85K a year pushing a broom in a factory, there are thousands who work quite hard....and if left up to the corporate top, they'd be making $10 an hour.  My local GM of our high tech business calls technical employee's "cheeseburgers".  Tells them to their face in fact.  I can pick you for $1, or about three others for $1, so take it or leave it.  Yet when we try and hire someone we can't find anyone who requires less than a year of training.  Geez.  BUt this mentality seems to get so much traction, on sad to say it directly, the right, that people don't stop and think and look at the real problems.  Sure, there has been abuse on all sides...no doubt this is true...and no doubt people should be in prison from both sides.  Today, there is NO accountability....NONE.  You can rob literally billions from America and still walk free.   Bernie is the rare exception....but look at all the legal criminals still sitting at the helm of their weapon, I mean bank.  It is just sad.  But with no accountability, when will it end?  Only when the accountability returns and there is a way to hold them accountable for the massive stealing from the American people.  Companies drop all pensions becuase they can't afford it, push us into 401K, which just means we now HAVE to send our money to Wall Street in hopes of being able to afford retirement some day.  What a scheme that is....and then there's huge rewards for the CEOs and staff TODAY, not tomorrow, from the same wall street.  No one looks 5 years in the future, nor 3, from a corporate persepective.  This used to be NOT the case.  Today if you look more than 12 months ahead you are likely fired, because you didn't focus on immediate return.

There's a guy here who two years ago used to be fairly hardcore right.  Bought the standard BS from the pundits.  Everyone on welfare should just get a job, and that is the majority of our troubles...Geeez.  He bought a Kindle.  He reads now rather voraciously, and it is incredible to see his transformation.  The wool has been pulled from his eyes and he understands and fully sees how the American people are being robbed.  Both sides of the aisle on Capital hill  play along with this.....they just pander to the money.  And yet we keep electing the same idiots to go and steal from us....and until we as a total nation read and think, and stop listening to the rhetoric, until the collectively we understand and move forward together....it will not end.

I think this will continue for a good long time...until some major event truly takes hold and drives the truth to everyones immediate understanding.  Let's say when water becomes scarce.  Perhaps $10 a gallon fuel will do this, but it is already there in Europe.  No wonder the europeans are "socialist"....LMAO.  People there have a bit more understanding of reality.  Socialism isn't the answer....but regulation on what can be done is.  It used to be the law, and yet America thrived.  And now today it is gone and only the top are thriving....and thriving more then ever in history.  It is actually quite sick.  Yet the word socialist is thrown around and everyone just stops thinking and jumps into thoughts of the USSR or similar.  

As long as those flat panels keep showing up, and new little toys, people are satiated and few rise up to understand the truth.  It is very disappointing...yet it abounds in the US.  Apathy.   But having a few little pet issues keeps the masses happy.  These politicians, in bed with the big money and the pundits, they all know how to herd the cattle.  The cattle need to stand up and realize they are being headed to slaughter.  I guess sheep is a better analogy....they just get sheered year after year.  But rising up against it?  In the next few years?  Strong enough to push career politicians out and elect sensible, middle of the road people that refuse to get pulled into the hot topics of one side or the other, pass some monumental changing laws, and then step down?  Used to be public office was seen as a duty, no one wanted to leave their farm to go and serve....but they felt an obligation to the emerging nation to do the work.  Now poliicians are not only career long, they are family legacy.  That's just sad....and yet we keep voting.  Bush or Kennedy....doesn't matter....they never are focused on the people.

Phew....must stop.   Going to go fell some trees now with my teeth.


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## Zoidberg (Mar 30, 2011)

bpirger said:
			
		

> I'd be really surprised it is happened that soon.  Most folks aren't aware of the truth, they just live with the scraps falling from the table.  Bigger TV's, new phones, more texting, it just seems to appease everyone.
> ...
> Phew....must stop.   Going to go fell some trees now with my teeth.



Great post bpirger. You are describing Spain man.


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## rkusek (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm not sure I totally agree with you guys on regulation being the cause of all our problems.  I was a child in the late 70's and early 80's but I remember how it cost a fortune (like $10 I think) to make a long distance call across the country.  Today, it is only a fraction of that.  Air travel must have been the same way.  My folks never could afford to take us on a trip unless we drove the car and that was back when the speed limits were 55mph on the interstates.  Today flights seem very affordable especially when compare in today's dollars.  I can't believe the current cell phone proliferation would have ever occured in a tightly regulated government control like we had back then.  There was just no competition, no innovation at all.  We would probably still be using the old bag phones and brick phones from 20 yrs ago today.  I don't think anyone should rely totally on the government for their retirement, health care, or well being.  If my company pension is still there when I retire in 20 years and the government ran railroad retirement hasn't been pilfered, I will be setting pretty good.  If its gone, I still plan to have enough saved on my own to survive.  Same is true with healthcare.  We don't need Obamacare, that won't do a damn thing to help any of us.  My company started a high deductable health plan a few years ago (HDHP) and I really like it compared to the HMO & PPOs we were on in the past.  They put a sizeable amount ($2600) in your HSA savings account each year and I also contribute $150/month (difference between what we paid for HMO/PPO 4 yrs ago and the current HDHP premium).  My wife had an accident the first year and we did have some out of pocket expenses but I think we have close to $10k in the HSA now.  The best thing is the premiums have barely changed $72, 72, 90, 90 over the past 4 years.  Wife, kids, and I still have regular checkups covered 100% as part of preventive care.  I also switched to generic medication which I should have done long ago but had no incentive to do so under the HMO/PPOs.  It's like everything else, when you have a stake or share in paying the bill you will be a smarter consumer.  This is the solution the the health care problem not some $5000 toliet seat solution from Washington.  If they operated neighborhood lemondade stands, a glass would cost $10 to cover all the administrative expenses.  Our medical care is the best in the world, I just hope we can keep it that way.


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## Rick Stanley (Mar 31, 2011)

HA!! Speaking of Lemonade stands. Thought this was fitting.


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## heaterman (Mar 31, 2011)

Good find Rick! LMAO!!

I highly recommend a book by John Mauldin titled  "Endgame: The end of the debt supercycle and how it changes everything."

The guy is one of the few financial bloggers/writers who is not out there for the sole purpose of hyping whatever he is selling at the moment. Pretty straight shooter who started his career out on a path that led through seminary if that tells you anything........

What is written in there and the statistics that are shown or quoted are shall we say.......sobering, to say the least. He details the options that we have as a country as well as the options for the rest of the world and none of them are painless. There will be carnage somewhere, or rather there will be some degree of carnage everywhere. It's just a matter of when not if. I think we all know that.  The bottom line is simply that at some point the bond market (people and countries that buy our debt) are going to say, "enough of this crap". Especially if they see that nothing is being done to bring down the debt held by both private parties and businesses as well as public or government instruments of bondage.  What happens then will not be pretty as interest rates will soar, effectively smashing whatever is left of our economy at that point. When that happens we will truly be back in the 1930's only without the benefits of having a large percentage of the population able to take care of itself and survive in small self sufficient communities.

Here's a quote from John's book. Plain simple and to the point. It should be mandatory reading for all the creatures inhabiting our state and federal governments. 

"Our leaders need to be candid with the American people. There are no magic answers, no easy solutions. The time for the blame game is over. We need to get on with the job of setting a course back to a sustainable economy that will grow and produce the jobs and opportunities that we have had in the past and we want for our children. It will mean some years of difficulty, but we can get through it if we choose to. If we do not choose to act prudently, far more difficult times will be forced on us. Let's hope we can be proactive. "


And here's a quote from another "good book"........I guess it doesn't kid around.

Proverbs 22:7....The rich rule over the poor,
   and the borrower is slave to the lender.


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## heaterman (Mar 31, 2011)

Huskers.......I agree that it's not all regulation/deregulation nor is it all the big business and stock market people.  Regular, seemingly normal people bought into the myth of creating wealth by going so far in debt they couldn't see the sun. No one made them do it but themselves. I personally know a few who have lost everything they had because it was ALL mortgaged right to the hilt while they tried to buy or build houses and flip them for a profit. No one was forced to take out an adjustable rate mortgage for twice the value of their home or business. I mean what were they thinking? New car loans? No money down, deferred payments for 90 days (while interest accrued) .....and they wonder why the car is worth less than what is owed 5 years later........
Appliances, big TV's, Kubotas and John Deeres, motorcycles, ATV's and other toys of any type. Why wait!! Get it now!...........well now we know why a little patience and a down-payment is a good thing.......

Being in the construction trades I was right in the thick of it and I remember saying to a very good friend who was going gangbusters buying properties left and right that it was all just a house of cards waiting to get blown over. I'm no genius when it comes to innovative financial shenanigans but when I saw families with combined income of $50K or less and 2, 3 or 4 kids, building houses that cost $300K and up, I started thinking that things weren't adding up the way they should. Go figure.

Pirger man.......you need to take care of your teeth. Ease up on the trees.


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## ihookem (Mar 31, 2011)

For what it's worth frozen Canuck insulation for some reason is cheap now. OSB is 7 bucks for 7/16". I did talk to my plumber and was one irritated guy. He can't believe how much pex and " those stupid fittings" went through the roof. Scrap prices! WOW! A few years ago I got 2 cents a lb. for a cast iron tub. A month ago it was 10 cents. Last year I got 5 cents for scrap steel, last week I got .15 cents, 70 cents for cans. This tells me inflation is on it's way and like never before. I don't think it was like this in 1979. FOOD, my wife is mad ( and not the cute mad) when shopping for food. I won't even go with her anymore, and those road kills in the ditch all winter are bringing back memories of 1980. I don't exactly blame "O" but he didn't help at all. We need to drill our own oil, we need to work hard for cheap. Cut gov. spending ( a real pissing match debate here in Wisconsin) We can do it but it won't be pretty. Us here are a much tougher breed, the rest are in for tough times they can't imagine.


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## heaterman (Mar 31, 2011)

RE: Wisconsin. What Walker is doing there is highly unpopular and even painful, but absolutely necessary. It looks to me like the governors in several states are going to lead the way. That is, if they can just grit their teeth and fight through all the nay sayers and negative hyperbole generated by the media and the unions involved at the moment. Those are the kind of things that are going to have to be done, along with higher taxes for everyone of us if we are going to get out of this mess.


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## shortline (Mar 31, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Good find Rick! LMAO!!
> 
> I highly recommend a book by John Mauldin titled  "Endgame: The end of the debt supercycle and how it changes everything.
> 
> ...



AMEN!


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## Frozen Canuck (Mar 31, 2011)

Yes indeed....if we dont deal with the mess we got ourselves into now....well we are going to get steamrolled by it later.

Perfect cartoon Rick.....wonder how many wallstreet/bankers recognize themselves in that very accurate satire.


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## rkusek (Mar 31, 2011)

The city and state governments are going broke too big time not totally the fault of the unions but they account for some of the blame.  Nobody should be able to get full retirement at 45 and have it based on the highest 12 month period in their last five years, especially when you could spike your pay working all the overtime you could get and not taking any days off during that 12 month period.  The latest police union contract here supposedly ended the salary spiking for retirement purposes and raised the age for retirement to 50 for new hires and employees with less than 20 years.  Those with 20 years or more still retire at 45 with full benefits.  They get 72% of that highest 12 months when they retire.  One guy that was making $55,000 spiked his last year up to $125,000 and will get a $90,000 retirement, way more than he ever made working.  The average salary is $63,000 and most are boosting their retirement base way above that figure.  It's true they have a dangerous job but so do many of us.  This has city bankruptcy written all over it.  Totally unsustainable, just like the federal government spending.


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## stee6043 (Mar 31, 2011)

Dang....and I thought I was avoiding the Ash Can quite succesfully....


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## bupalos (Mar 31, 2011)

I run a foreign language translation business, so I see a lot of the U.S. export market and have a lot of exposure to international conditions. It's interesting to me to see how much in the US we focus on what we do wrong and see it as internal failure and even moral failure and discount what I see as much more potent factors. The prices of energy-- and by extension steel and food and just about everything-- are determined almost completely by factors external to behavior by or within the U.S.   China and India have so much more to do with our real world conditions than some supposed decline in the quality of our people or their willingness or ability to work or desire for flat-screens or what have you. 

For all the storm and worry over our national debt and budget deficit, it really has very little to do with the overall strength of our economy. And people domestically and internationally still want to lend to the US government more than just about any other entity, I think for pretty good reason. The budget deficit is easily eliminated and turned back into a surplus with fairly slight age and income adjustments to SS and medicare. And these only became problems in the first place because of tilted demographics, incredible advances in medical technology, and lowering tax rates way below historical averages, especially on the wealthiest citizens -- in other words, they are problems that came from the fact that our lives are better. Or just reset the tax rates to the Clinton years. Or trim the military a bit. This thing isn't nearly as fragile as people seem to think, and there will be political cooperation when there is a real need for it. We aren't bankrupt. We've got assets and a way of life and ethos that are the envy of the world, and can be made more sustainable with just a little common sense. And while we look nutty and politically paralyzed from time to time, when push comes to shove I think we'll show we've still got that common sense.

The world is way different than it was in the 50's, but what 50 year period can you not say that about? We'll continue to change and adapt and probably for the most part get better. Just like we always have.

Just wanted to sound a note of what I think is more realistic optimism amidst some of this vague doom. And agree with the original poster that you should get your boiler now. Burning wood cleanly makes you a better citizen and the U.S. a better country.


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## b33p3r (Mar 31, 2011)

Just my 2 cents. We need to get rid of the Federal Reserve and get back to the Gold standard. Then the monies regulate themselves. Just printing monies whenever we need it is what drags us down. The billionaires are the federal reserve and they love when goverments need money. Yes that money has to be paid back and it's paid back with tax payer money.


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## Pat53 (Mar 31, 2011)

bupalos said:
			
		

> I run a foreign language translation business, so I see a lot of the U.S. export market and have a lot of exposure to international conditions. It's interesting to me to see how much in the US we focus on what we do wrong and see it as internal failure and even moral failure and discount what I see as much more potent factors. The prices of energy-- and by extension steel and food and just about everything-- are determined almost completely by factors external to behavior by or within the U.S.   China and India have so much more to do with our real world conditions than some supposed decline in the quality of our people or their willingness or ability to work or desire for flat-screens or what have you.
> 
> For all the storm and worry over our national debt and budget deficit, it really has very little to do with the overall strength of our economy. And people domestically and internationally still want to lend to the US government more than just about any other entity, I think for pretty good reason. The budget deficit is easily eliminated and turned back into a surplus with fairly slight age and income adjustments to SS and medicare. And these only became problems in the first place because of tilted demographics, incredible advances in medical technology, and lowering tax rates way below historical averages, especially on the wealthiest citizens -- in other words, they are problems that came from the fact that our lives are better. Or just reset the tax rates to the Clinton years. Or trim the military a bit. This thing isn't nearly as fragile as people seem to think, and there will be political cooperation when there is a real need for it. We aren't bankrupt. We've got assets and a way of life and ethos that are the envy of the world, and can be made more sustainable with just a little common sense. And while we look nutty and politically paralyzed from time to time, when push comes to shove I think we'll show we've still got that common sense.
> 
> ...



With all due respect, a country that has to borrow 42 cents of every dollar it spends, borrows over $4 billion dollars/DAY just to stay afloat, is over $14 TRILLION dollars in debt, has unfunded liabilities of over $70 TRILLION dollars, has over 44 million people on food stamps, has REAL  unemployment of almost 20%, is a country that is in REAL trouble.

As far as other countries buying our debt, like China and Japan (who won't be buying anymore due to the disaster there), many of these countries buy our debt to keep the value of their currencies low, so they can keep on selling us cheap junk we don't need, and to keep THEIR people employed, and ours unemployed. It amazes me how the talking heads on Wall Strret consider US Treasuries as "safe haven" assets, when it is clear to me that Treasuries are the biggest Ponzi scheme the world has ever seen. There is no way the holders of these "assets" will ever be paid back with dollars that are worth anything, assuming they even get paid back at all. 

There is really no way you can compare the US today with that of 50-60 years ago. We were a manufacturing powerhouse then. There was virtually no debt anywhere, people lived within there means. One of the main reasons why the US has lived so well for the last 50 years is because we have the worlds reserve currency, and it allowed us to borrow and spend like drunken sailors. Credit and debt has fueled much of the growth over that time. The bills are coming due now. The debt has become so enormous, that it requires more and more debt to just keep the ship afloat. Imagine what would have happened if the Fed had not pumped trillions into the economy over the last 3 years, and it really hasn't done much for the average guy, only Wall Street and the Banks. The Fed has destroyed the value of our currency, and they aren't done yet. This is going to end badly, just a matter of time. 

We are broke and bankrupt. I only hope when its over, those responsible go to jail or are swinging from ropes in Times Square ! More than likely however, is that not a single one of these crooks will ever be prosecuted, and they will all have somehow managed to "get the hell out of dodge" relatively unscathed. Tough times are coming, no question in my mind on that !


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## bpirger (Mar 31, 2011)

AH, I nice cold glass of lemonade!  Well done Rick!

Regulation of the ilk that controlled essentially how monopoloies could run their business....indeed, breaking them up into pieces allowed for competition.  Not to mention a very healthy dose of technology.  This is all good...agreed.

Regulation that removes the rules on these banks which allows them to gamble, and to build an enormous system to cover the betting, is not good.  When people get rich from creating and adding something to society, it is likely a good thing, and a good idea that they worked for.  When people get rich effectively from stealing from others, this is NOT a good thing....and not good for society.   It is pretty simple....and I'd think most of all people would agree on this.

No doubt there are people who borrowed too much, too much house, etc. and so forth.  I actually don't know any who did....but I'm a recluse.  LMAO  The way I see it though, is everyday the banker signed a hundred papers, knowing full well what was going to happen to each one of those individuals.  The banker collected his fees, and by the end of the day, he was no longer responsible for the paper, becuase it was packaged and sold to someone else.  Based on a AAA rating from the rating people, who then testify "it is just our opinion".  DUH!  So why not ask me for my opinion then AIG?  

Bottom line is greed.  Money.  Sure, I'd like more and I've learned I have to play the corporate game to get what I should get....  But I'm not going to fire my employees so that I can have more.  I'm not going to ask my employees to work twice as hard for 5% more so I can get more.  But I'm not quite as greedy as others, that's why I'm not in the business side of business, and it is really criminal (to me) that this continues like this.   

As for healthcare, just to chime in a bit, I agree ObamaCare isn't going to help the cost.  It will cover more people with care.  I guess, to me, in the America that I like to think I live in, if you are sick, you should be able to obtain health care.  The bill helps in that direction.  It forces people to buy insuance from the insurance company....bad idea.  But it also provides care to millions who don't have it.  Is that saying to much?  We are the only western country that operates the way we do....I think perhaps that is saying something.  We also recycle the least and consume, by far, the most.  That also says something.  Are they related?  Eh, I think so.

When is it going to change?  Not until people wake up and pay attention.  I marvel at the power of the tea party.  They almost got a nail polish expert elected Senator in Nevada, and a crazy nut elected in Delaware.  Imagine if a sane group of people, across the isle, who really wanted to see America return to focus on the majority of Americans....can't they just come together for a decade to make the right decisions?  Geez, that is all it would take.

One thing I think we all agree on.  The future is based more on technology than grunt labor.  Cutting our nations education, in exchange for tax cuts for the wealthy, doesn't make much sense to me.  Sure, helps the welathy today...and they fund the politicians.  But how does that help America?  How does that return in our economy down the road in 10 or 20 years?  As other nations soar past us in their education levels, as we send back all the brightest with PhDs so they can create in their own countries, how is that helping us?  Unions have abused...no doubt.  Many have exceeded their initial purpose and goals.  Agreed.  But rest assured, without them, all of the excesses of Wall Street in the last 20 years would have been commonplace across all business on the backs of the workers.  Remove the unions and there will be widespread abuse.  Public unions....I get the point...I agree to some extent...but there has to be limits and protections.

I was just told that I have to "play the game" regarding my salary every year.  It is just "expected" that is how it will be done.  Corporate decisions are made, lowballing everyone, and studies show that 98% of employees won't speak up.  2% will.....some will get what they ask for, others won't, but in the end, the corporation has deemed this their strategy becuase it is financially best for them.  They don't care about the countless hours lost in employee griping.  The bad will.  The lack of willingness to chip in during a peak demand.  ALl of these other factors, they don't care, it is what they determine is best for their bottom line.  OK, call me naive, but is that right?  Is that the way America should be? 

When some folks get rich by holding down others....that's the problem.  Good ideas, hard work, a just reward indeed.  But intentionally pushing/holding others down to benefit one's self?  Might as well sell that cracked rod tractor in the auction as good as new.  Or might as well dump the toxic fracking water in the river.  Or sell that rotten meat.  Or install that sh!tty boiler, or hook the copper up to the steel pipe in an open system.  Why not?  Why not save the few dollars and push down the dumb homeowner who doesn't know any better?  Why not violate the trust?  Just becuase you won't be in business long?  Or because it is unethical?  Perhaps that answer describes the direction of America.....


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## WoodChoppa (Apr 1, 2011)

This video pretty much explains how this all came to be.

http://videosift.com/video/american-dream?loadcomm=1


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## heaterman (Apr 1, 2011)

Getting this back on track........
This is a quote from an e-mail I got from a manufacturer a couple days ago.............

"Weâ€™re up about 9% on the residential models and 13% on the larger models. This was a tough call as we have been proud to hold the pricing for 3 years. But as you well know the costs of steel are soaring sharply. The odd thing is that the 10-20% industry increases on the steel (and metals) market is not taking the rebuilding of Japanâ€™s infrastructure into account. I fear there is still a long way to go."

So. What are your plans people? Need I say more?


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## Fsappo (Apr 1, 2011)

Just got the price increases in from Regency and Paromax.


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## in hot water (Apr 1, 2011)

raise taxes!, er I mean close the loop holes, same thing really.  If in fact corporations are having their most profitable years ever, buck up, no more incentives, or tax free deals for the wealthy corps.  Same for farmers it's time to stop paying tens of thousands to be non productive. Have the farmers raise organic products, not the genetic stuff that is killing us, and the bees.  Even WalMart started selling organic food products at a healthy price increase. 

Stop making fuel from corn and food, nations are starving, sell the food, don't use it to fuel 300+ hp SUVs.  The uprising in Libya started over the lack of food and jobs under a repressive dictator.  They have oil we have corn and grains that they cannot live without. 

Start closing down all the Swiss accounts that the wealthy shelter their money in to avoid taxes.  Tax the ultra rich, most said they would not mind, even Bill O Riley, they always figure out a way to make more when you take some of it.

Enough with the wars.  Prosecute some of the wall streeters that are continuing to scam the people, that alone would boost moral in the country.  The answers seem so simple.


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## Fsappo (Apr 1, 2011)

They seem simple until you get into office and are told what to do by the Bilderburgers.


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## bpirger (Apr 1, 2011)

SAdly to get into office you have to take their money.....and once it begins, apparently, there is no end!

"All" that is needed is the rise of a third independent party, committed to pass campaign finance reform, stop the revolving door, and stop pandering to those who got the normal politicians into office....

I'd have to believe there's a few hundred good woman and men that would stick to their principles and do the right thing...and then move on for the next round.  It might take a decade to get enough numbers in office to make the changes, but oh what a wonderul nation it could be.

And if all the mega wealthy want to leave, let's all stand and waive together...however many fingers you chose to waive is up to you.   

Returning the power to the people, the people who have their children fighting overseas so the wealthy can garner even more wealth, the people that have lost so much so the wealth can continue to be sucked upwards like never before in history, the vast majority of Americans, the middle class....and pass laws based on how many people they will positively affect, not how many  dollars end up in the hands of the ones influencing all the politicians.  Just imagine how much positive influence on the country that would be....


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## Willman (Apr 2, 2011)

> market is not taking the rebuilding of Japanâ€™s infrastructure into account.



Definitely not a lot of steel recycling gonna be going on in Japan. They will be rethinking their (nukleear) power plant building methods for sure. Any heavy construction, steel, electrical companies stock is looking like a buy, not to mention all the automobiles that will need replacing.They will be in it for the long haul for sure.

Any insurance companies involved there and here will be upping their rates for all policy holders to pay for this debacle. Makes the steel price rise pale in comparison.

Will


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## heaterman (Apr 2, 2011)

Willman said:
			
		

> > market is not taking the rebuilding of Japanâ€™s infrastructure into account.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I read somewhere that over 45,000 new cars of various brands were destroyed by the tsunami. Don't know if it's true or accurate but that's a big hit for the companies holding the bag on those $$.$$

Also read today that at least 50 of the guys working the nuke site to try and avert a full blown catastrophe have received enough radiation that they know they are going to die soon. What a pitiful situation.


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## Willman (Apr 2, 2011)

> 50 of the guys working the nuke



They are known as "jumpers" in the nuke world. Paid real well. provides for their families after their gone. Get sick asap or linger like the people from the WTC.

Will


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## BoilerBob (Apr 3, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Getting this back on track........
> This is a quote from an e-mail I got from a manufacturer a couple days ago.............
> 
> "Weâ€™re up about 9% on the residential models and 13% on the larger models. This was a tough call as we have been proud to hold the pricing for 3 years. But as you well know the costs of steel are soaring sharply. The odd thing is that the 10-20% industry increases on the steel (and metals) market is not taking the rebuilding of Japanâ€™s infrastructure into account. I fear there is still a long way to go."
> ...



My plans were a gasser with storage, approx 3 years away. Does it make sense to purchase gasser now, and store it while I prepare the water storage location and build firewood storage shelter? My whole garage needs a renovation, then I would build a firewood storage area on the south east side. I could swing the gasser purchase now, then while my finances recoup, I could tackle these projects as I can afford them.

  Will I pay a lot more in 2 or 3 years time for the gasser?
               Thanks PC


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## pybyr (Apr 3, 2011)

NovaScotian said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hard to say what costs will do-- but right now, there are makes and designs available that nearly no one on this side of the Atlantic even knew about 3 years ago [such as suction draft, lambda control, etc.].  In that sense, I'd probably wait, as your options may expand.  In addition, if purchasing ahead of time, I'd want to be sure that any warranties ran from the time placed in service, rather than the time of purchase.


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## kopeck (Apr 3, 2011)

Sorry to sway the conversation away from politics or what have your but I was curious about other prices.

I know boiler are going to go up, I hope to get my foot in the door before I have to deal with that but what about the other materials?

Like has anyone priced 1 1/4" Copper pipe recently?  I did a google search and hit a few prices, anywhere from $50 to $70 a 10 foot section.  It wouldn't surprise me if locally it was a bit less (who really orders pipe online) but since it's a Sunday I can't call and find out.

I did take a peek at 1 1/4 S40 black pipe last time I was at the Home Depot (not where I would buy it but it gives me an idea on what the price it running) and it was $23 for a 10 foot section.

I would kind of like to go copper for my project but that's quiet a price difference!

K


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## pwschiller (Apr 3, 2011)

kopeck said:
			
		

> Sorry to sway the conversation away from politics or what have your but I was curious about other prices.
> Like has anyone priced 1 1/4" Copper pipe recently?  I did a google search and hit a few prices, anywhere from $50 to $70 a 10 foot section.  It wouldn't surprise me if locally it was a bit less (who really orders pipe online) but since it's a Sunday I can't call and find out.
> 
> I would kind of like to go copper for my project but that's quiet a price difference!
> ...


You can see current HD prices and inventory online. Type M copper in 10' lengths:
1/2" - $11.81
3/4" - $19.47
1" - $32.69
1-1/4" - $47.92

The 1-1/4" is not carried at all locations.

PEX Supply seems to have good prices on fittings.


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## kopeck (Apr 3, 2011)

Pete Schiller said:
			
		

> You can see current HD prices and inventory online. Type M copper in 10' lengths:
> 1/2" - $11.81
> 3/4" - $19.47
> 1" - $32.69
> ...



Sorry, I knew that, I'm not sure how HD prices compare to most plumbing houses though.  I also brought this up since copper seems to be on the rise (I know scrap is up).

I see that you listed M, do most of you folks use M or L?

K


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## pwschiller (Apr 3, 2011)

kopeck said:
			
		

> Sorry, I knew that, I'm not sure how HD prices compare to most plumbing houses though.  I also brought this up since copper seems to be on the rise (I know scrap is up).
> 
> I see that you listed M, do most of you folks use M or L?
> K



On 2/15/2011 I received a quote from one of the NH plumbing retailer/wholesalers for several thousand dollars worth of supplies and it included prices for type M copper:
3/4" x 10' - $36.67
1" x 10' - $57.22
1-1/4" x 10' - $81.39

That's considerably more than HD and I think that copper prices have gone up since then.

I'm not a plumber, but my understanding is that type M is generally used in closed heating systems and type L is used for domestic water plumbing, but I believe that either one meets code for either use.


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## kopeck (Apr 3, 2011)

My understanding was L was is heavier pipe, I know back in the day when people still buried copper L was what was used not M.

M is cheaper so that's cool with me.  I know my 3/4" heating stuff is M, I wasn't sure if it mattered more to use L when the size increased.

You are right though, HD is cheaper.  Maybe I'll call around Monday and then stock pile some so I'll have it on hand this summer.  I doubt it will loose value in that time.

K


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## kopeck (Apr 3, 2011)

Lowes had: 

1 1/4" x 10' L for 53.83 (they only had L)
3/4" x 10' M $17.90
3/4" x 10' L $25.23

I also have a list of common fittings but I wont bore you with those.

I really need to figure out if I want to go iron or copper.

K


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## RowCropRenegade (Apr 4, 2011)

Interesting thread.  A few things I might add:

Scrap steel is selling for 240 a ton.  Been hauling in load after load cleaning out a woods and making new farmland.  It's the place where farm machinery/hog equipment went to die.  I anticipate steel going up because ALL COMMIDITIES are sky rocketing.    We are only hauling what we have to into the scrap yard.  There should be plenty left to sell for 340/ton.

  Funny how the federal government figures inflation.  Their numbers leave out the MOST important inputs: Food and Fuel.  As we all know, those two items have been skyrocketing.  Not to mention new and used equipment, corn, soybeans, wheat, copper, oil, repairs, tires, lumber, tires, copper, platinum,  the list goes on and on.  I see no way that we experience deflation as long as Bernanke is in charge.  Cause if we experience deflation, we will have sovereign default, mass starvation, civil strife and many wild things.  Basically 1930s depression times 10.   This will NOT be allowed to happen.  They will keep the printers running on max.

No way this thing doesn't end badly.  Fractional Reserve Banking is a pyramid scheme.


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## kopeck (Apr 4, 2011)

I hope there were no gems that you sent off to China (Sorry, farm equipment buff, like the 574 BTW)! 

That's what I've been reading, scrap is up like a few years ago.  Really it's just like a few years ago, fuels up and anything that isn't bolted down is being cut up and sold as scrap.  I've got a bunch of copper that was underground I should probably turn into cash, might help my project out.

K


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## rkusek (Apr 4, 2011)

bpirger said:
			
		

> Regulation of the ilk that controlled essentially how monopoloies could run their business....indeed, breaking them up into pieces allowed for competition.  Not to mention a very healthy dose of technology.  This is all good...agreed.
> 
> Regulation that removes the rules on these banks which allows them to gamble, and to build an enormous system to cover the betting, is not good.  When people get rich from creating and adding something to society, it is likely a good thing, and a good idea that they worked for.  When people get rich effectively from stealing from others, this is NOT a good thing....and not good for society.   It is pretty simple....and I'd think most of all people would agree on this.
> 
> No doubt there are people who borrowed too much, too much house, etc. and so forth.  I actually don't know any who did....but I'm a recluse.  LMAO  The way I see it though, is everyday the banker signed a hundred papers, knowing full well what was going to happen to each one of those individuals.  The banker collected his fees, and by the end of the day, he was no longer responsible for the paper, becuase it was packaged and sold to someone else.  Based on a AAA rating from the rating people, who then testify "it is just our opinion".  DUH!  So why not ask me for my opinion then AIG?



I could be mistaken but I don't believe it WAS the bankers that came up with the idea to make home loans to people that could not afford it.  Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and others including Bush too had a hand in the noble cause of "providing the means for everyone to own their own home" even if they could not make the payments.  Fannie & Freddie (gov companies) were used to guarantee the debt and keep banks making more bad loans.  In fact, Jamie Gorelick rumored to be Obama's next head of FBI encouraged the practice of bundling up the subprime loans into securities that could be sold to generate more money to make subprime loans.

â€œFannie Mae will buy CRA loans from lenders' portfolios; we'll package them into securities; we'll purchase CRA mortgages at the point of origination; and we'll create customized CRA-targeted securities,â€ she said in 2001. â€œThis expanded approach has improved liquidity in the secondary market for CRA product, and has helped our lenders leverage even more CRA lending. Lenders now have the flexibility to use their own, customized loan products.â€

In remarks before the American Bankers Association on Oct. 30, 2000, Gorelick explicitly how the process would work and what Fannie Mae would do to make it feasible for banks to lend to low-income applicants.

â€œWe will take CRA loans off your hands--we will buy them from your portfolios, or package them into securities--so you have fresh cash to make more CRA loans,â€ she said. â€œSome people have assumed we don't buy tough loans. Let me correct that misimpression right now. We want your CRA loans because they help us meet our housing goals.â€

You can read more about this here.  Incidently, even though she had no prior experience in finance she became vice chairman of Fannie in 1997 after being Janet Reno's #2 in the Clinton administration.  Fannie's chairman Franklin Raines was Budget Director for Clinton.  Gorelick made about $26 million working for Fannie, getting out right before it tanked and had to be bailed out.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/clinton-official-embroiled-911-controver
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick
[quote/]


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## rkusek (Apr 4, 2011)

bpirger said:
			
		

> Bottom line is greed.  Money.  Sure, I'd like more and I've learned I have to play the corporate game to get what I should get....  But I'm not going to fire my employees so that I can have more.  I'm not going to ask my employees to work twice as hard for 5% more so I can get more.  But I'm not quite as greedy as others, that's why I'm not in the business side of business, and it is really criminal (to me) that this continues like this.



I do see the greed in corporate elite but we also have many cases of a lack of motivation in my workplace.  A unionized workforce is all paid the same whether you are good or bad at what you do, whether you work hard or just milk the clock.  Many guys go to great lengths to do as little as possible knowing the can't be fired because of the union.  The company is at fault as well, they agree to contracts that pay more for doing less instead of insisting on the opposite as far as performance goes.  Many of the guys have worked here all their life and have no idea what it is like to work a real job where they would probably be fired on the first day.  I once worked for a printing company that payed about a $7/hr guarantee (1995) but then had a lucrative incentive pay system where you could make around $40-55k.  We were paid X amount for each copy and it had to meet quality standards to count.  In addition you couldn't mess around because the other line would finish their run first and take your jobs.  We also had a 4 hour press maintenance time each week ($7/hr ) where you had to clean, replace worn parts, grease, etc. to keep it in good working order.  You had to work with the other 2 shifts to make sure everyone made good use of the 4hr time to fix what need to get fixed otherwise it would break down when you were trying to make your money.  It really brought out the best in everyone and one line would even help out the other if they were having big problems.

[quote/]
As for healthcare, just to chime in a bit, I agree ObamaCare isn't going to help the cost.  It will cover more people with care.  I guess, to me, in the America that I like to think I live in, if you are sick, you should be able to obtain health care.  The bill helps in that direction.  It forces people to buy insuance from the insurance company....bad idea.  But it also provides care to millions who don't have it.  Is that saying to much?  We are the only western country that operates the way we do....I think perhaps that is saying something.  We also recycle the least and consume, by far, the most.  That also says something.  Are they related?  Eh, I think so.[/quote]

I don't think putting the government in charge of 21% of the nations GDP is going to make it more efficient or cover more people.  The Fed govt does a poor managing almost everything it touches.  I think they should stick to things like the military, air traffic control, food safety, things that are not practical in the private sector.  The solution for those not on Medicare is those HDHPs with the HSAs.  Encourage people to play a part in their own well being and how much it costs.  The result will be better for everyone.


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## Pat53 (Apr 4, 2011)

RowCropRenegade said:
			
		

> Interesting thread.  A few things I might add:
> 
> Scrap steel is selling for 240 a ton.  Been hauling in load after load cleaning out a woods and making new farmland.  It's the place where farm machinery/hog equipment went to die.  I anticipate steel going up because ALL COMMIDITIES are sky rocketing.    We are only hauling what we have to into the scrap yard.  There should be plenty left to sell for 340/ton.
> 
> ...



Well said Row, especially the last line.  FRB is indeed a ponzi. The FDIC is broke, actually in the red, and banks have less than 2 CENTS of cash to cover every dollar of deposit money. Comforting, isn't it ! ? So the FDIC can say they insure your deposits to $10M, it doesn't matter, they have no money to cover your deposits, unless they print it out of thin air !  LOL

The big question now, going forward, is what will Bernanke do after June when QE2 ends. If he indeed ends pumping the markets with cash "cold turkey", there could be panic selling in all asset classes. The economy is in no way ready to stand on its own. But at some point Bernanke is going to have to defend old "Uncle Buck". The $ is close to falling off a cliff right now, and if they announce another round of QE, it could crash. That would send commodity prices soaring and bond yields and interest rates spiking higher. That would likely casue a panic for sure. 

Besides, you have several new voting Fed Governors who would not support another round of monetization by the Fed. The American people are also fed up with the continued debasement of the currency to basically support and bail out Wall Street and the big banks.

So, the way I see it, Bernanke is in a box. If he takes away the punch bowl cold turkey, he risks the financial markets throwing a major "temper tantrum", and possibly an all-out crash, and if he announces another round of debt monetization ( AKA money printing), he risks a $ crash and a bond market implosion and skyrocketing prices for literally everything. 

Personally, I don't see a way out without a lot of pain. We are in big trouble as a nation. We might as well take our medicine now and get it over with. But the politicians and beaurocrats always want to try and convince you they know how to get us out of this mess, We just need to "trust" them, even tho they are the ones who have put us in this horrible predicament . 

To think that these people actually belive that you can solve a debt crisis by going deeper into debt is simply mind-boggling. When you're deep in a hole, the first thing you need to do is stop digging. Nope, not according to these dopes, just keep diggin' !  LOL 

Austerity, and another Revolution is coming to America too, just a matter of time.


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## benjamin (Apr 4, 2011)

This all is getting way too complicated for me, but it does seem like a repeat of three years ago.  

Buy the boiler and the copper and bury them next to your gold if you want, but my philosophy on these things is buy low and sell high.  I've still got a small stack of 3/4" type M left from when they hit $8, that was about two years ago, not 6-10.

By all means if you're planning to be setting up a new boiler by next season get it paid for and on the way, but you won't do so well if you have to sell it used a few years from now once new prices have come back down.


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