# Not Buying Propane!!



## toddnic (Feb 12, 2018)

We use our gas furnace a few times each season primarily when we are traveling or are away from the house for a prolonged period of time. I haven't purchased propane in a few years but saw that our tank was at 50% so I decided to check prices. Well.....I'm not buying propane! The prices ranged from $2.35 to $3.09 per gallon depending upon how much I purchase and how quickly I pay. WOW! I think the last time I purchased propane I paid under $1.50 per gallon. Thankfully the tank is at 50% and will last a few more years  . I can't even begin to say how thankful I am for our wood stove!


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## illini81 (Feb 12, 2018)

My wife and I bought a house 9 months ago that was heated with a combination of electric baseboard heat and a propane fireplace insert and propane stove.  We replaced the propane fireplace insert with a wood burning insert and we don't use the propane stove.  However, we have a propane hot water heater, and so we still have to buy propane.  I just paid $4.10/gal for a fill up! This is after shopping around for the cheapest rate.  I am going to replace the propane hot water heater with electric as soon as I can.  From the little research I've done, propane was a reasonably priced heating option 10-15 years ago, but it doesn't seem to be the case today.


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## Happy Stacker (Feb 12, 2018)

Did the math to convert to US$. Up here propane is $2.06/US gal.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2018)

I pulled the propane furnace in 2006 when propane prices approached $2/gal. They went over double that amount soon afterward. It was one of the better decisions I have made.


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## toddnic (Feb 12, 2018)

begreen said:


> I pulled the propane furnace in 2006 when propane prices approached $2/gal. They went over double that amount soon afterward. It was one of the better decisions I have made.


I like having the propane furnace backup for when we are away but I definitely would not use it as my primary heat source. Too expensive....


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2018)

Our backup is now a high efficiency heat pump system. It works great for mild days. When it gets 45 or below we are burning wood.


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## djkeev (Feb 12, 2018)

I built a home for a family back in 85 or so, they opted for a propane furnace and even at that time I thought "dumb move!"

Dave


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## webby3650 (Feb 12, 2018)

Wow! You all must have cheap electricity where you live. Or LP is just higher? Other than wood, it’s the cheapest heat here, unless you have natural gas. No way I’d have a heat pump! Almost worthless all winter in this climate. Lots of people are swindled into one though, then they end up putting in a woodstove to offset the $800+ electric bills. Our electricity is almost unbelievably high here!


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## webby3650 (Feb 12, 2018)

Last time I bought LP, it was .93 a gallon...


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## djkeev (Feb 12, 2018)

webby3650 said:


> Wow! You all must have cheap electricity where you live. Or LP is just higher? Other than wood, it’s the cheapest heat here, unless you have natural gas. No way I’d have a heat pump! Almost worthless all winter in this climate. Lots of people are swindled into one though, then they end up putting in a woodstove to offset the $800+ electric bills. Our electricity is almost unbelievably high here!





I have a heat pump in the Reading Pa area.  It is THE cheapest fuel source outside of natural gas........ which I do NOT have out in the woods where I am. 

Dave


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## illini81 (Feb 12, 2018)

webby3650 said:


> Wow! You all must have cheap electricity where you live. Or LP is just higher? Other than wood, it’s the cheapest heat here, unless you have natural gas. No way I’d have a heat pump! Almost worthless all winter in this climate. Lots of people are swindled into one though, then they end up putting in a woodstove to offset the $800+ electric bills. Our electricity is almost unbelievably high here!



In my region of CT, there really aren't good heating options.  Oil is the most common option.  I'm going to guess that electric heat is second.  However, we have some of the highest electricity rates in the country.  Propane is an option, but is expensive as well.  Natural gas is mostly unavailable.  Kinda sucks.


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## webby3650 (Feb 12, 2018)

djkeev said:


> I have a heat pump in the Reading Pa area.  It is THE cheapest fuel source outside of natural gas........ which I do NOT have out in the woods where I am.
> 
> Dave


As long as you heat with wood once the temps really drop right?


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2018)

webby3650 said:


> Wow! You all must have cheap electricity where you live. Or LP is just higher? Other than wood, it’s the cheapest heat here, unless you have natural gas. No way I’d have a heat pump! Almost worthless all winter in this climate. Lots of people are swindled into one though, then they end up putting in a woodstove to offset the $800+ electric bills. Our electricity is almost unbelievably high here!


The midwest normally gets a huge break on propane prices. Where we are pricing is the opposite. Electricity is reasonable and propane earns the name propain. The heat pump is miserly and doesn't add a lot to the bill. Worst case maybe $30/40 a month or less during sunny 50+ days.


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## xman23 (Feb 12, 2018)

Questions for the heat pump fan boys. I have been considering it for the cabin.  Are you heating and air conditioning with the heat pump? Is it multiple split units? And what brand are you using?

Thanks Tom


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## webby3650 (Feb 12, 2018)

begreen said:


> The midwest normally gets a huge break on propane prices. Where we are pricing is the opposite. Electricity is reasonable and propane earns the name propain. The heat pump is miserly and doesn't add a lot to the bill. Worst case maybe $30/40 a month or less during sunny 50+ days.


Everyone I know that has one is unhappy with it, and uses wood to offset the outrageous heating bills. They are not effective under 30 degrees and inefficient under 40, from what I understand. I talked to as many installers as possible and researched it throughly before making my decision. 95%+ LP was my decision.


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## Sprinter (Feb 12, 2018)

I can't imagine having to heat a house with propane, at least around here.  We do use propane for the kitchen range but it uses very little and works nicely for cooking and in case of a serious power failure.  50 gallons can last us a year for that.  So with the wood stove and gas range and rotating about 40 gal of gas through containers and the cars, we can get along for months with just a small Honda gen.  

Propane is also a good fuel for dual fuel generators since it doesn't age like gasoline.  Again, mostly for emergencies.


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## webby3650 (Feb 12, 2018)

Sprinter said:


> I can't imagine having to heat a house with propane, at least around here.  We do use propane for the kitchen range but it uses very little and works nicely for cooking and in case of a serious power failure.  50 gallons can last us a year for that.  So with the wood stove and gas range and rotating about 40 gal of gas through containers and the cars, we can get along for months with just a small Honda gen.
> 
> Propane is also a good fuel for dual fuel generators since it doesn't age like gasoline.  Again, mostly for emergencies.


Or if it’s readily available. Evidently it’s cheaper it certain parts of the country. I only fill my 500 gallon tank in the summer. We use about half a tank annually, furnace, range and water heater. I pay less than $1 a gallon typically. Switching to a gas water heater alone dropped my electric bill by about $50 a month!


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## Woody Stover (Feb 12, 2018)

webby3650 said:


> Everyone I know that has one is unhappy with it, and uses wood to offset the outrageous heating bills. They are not effective under 30 degrees and inefficient under 40, from what I understand. I talked to as many installers as possible and researched it throughly before making my decision. 95%+ LP was my decision.


Aw crap, I was thinking a mini-split would be the way to go here. Hadn't really done the research yet, though. It *is* a bit warmer down here though..maybe 5 degrees.


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## webby3650 (Feb 12, 2018)

Woody Stover said:


> Aw crap, I was thinking a mini-split would be the way to go here. Hadn't really done the research yet, though. It *is* a bit warmer down here though..maybe 5 degrees.


I’ve heard good things about the mini split. Not real practical in my application though.


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## Sprinter (Feb 12, 2018)

webby3650 said:


> I pay less than $1 a gallon typically


Oh, well, that's pretty good.  I just checked our last bill and it was $2/gal for our smallish 50 gal. tank which wasn't too bad I thought.  But it changes all the time.  I've actually thought about buying a larger tank just for prepper reasons but I'm not sure it would be worth the cost.  It's good energy storage, though, for it's stability.

Our electric costs are quite low, but the the power grid can be a bit flaky, and a disaster would be, well, a disaster.  So I don't fully count on it.  I like to have a variety of energy sources at hand.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2018)

webby3650 said:


> Everyone I know that has one is unhappy with it, and uses wood to offset the outrageous heating bills. They are not effective under 30 degrees and inefficient under 40, from what I understand. I talked to as many installers as possible and researched it throughly before making my decision. 95%+ LP was my decision.


It all depends on what's installed and where. For our climate it works great. FWIW, several mini-splits are now good down to -5º these days. Some have air handler packages that can tie into a conventional ducted system.


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## redktmrider (Feb 12, 2018)

Woody Stover said:


> Aw crap, I was thinking a mini-split would be the way to go here. Hadn't really done the research yet, though. It *is* a bit warmer down here though..maybe 5 degrees.



We put in a 3 head mini split in our 1000 sq ft addition. It's a Mitsubishi Hyper Heat system , it claims it can heat down to -17F with out any secondary system. When it gets cold, it mainly heats the 500 sq ft bedroom as the Ashford heats the other 500 sq ft along with some of the older parts of the house. I've been pretty pleased with it so far. It sure is a lot better than than the ducted heat pump in the old parts of the house. The rooms served by the mini split feel much warmer even though the temps are the same.


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## webby3650 (Feb 12, 2018)

begreen said:


> It all depends on what's installed and where. For our climate it works great. FWIW, several mini-splits are now good down to -5º these days. Some have air handler packages that can tie into a conventional ducted system.


The mini splits are doing great I hear. Some people like their pumps, but not the folks on rural energy. It’s about 2/3’s more on average to operate.


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## Wolves1 (Feb 12, 2018)

I heat my house with wood 24/7 but i do have a  it’s a Mitsubishi split unit with hyper heating I did try itvwith outside temps under 10 and it did heat very fast. If you don’t have the hyper heating it will  continuously run on high and it will not be efficient at all.


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## RobbieB (Feb 12, 2018)

I pay $7.50/gallon for propane regularly.

Blue Rhino propane exchange at the grocery -


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## Sprinter (Feb 12, 2018)

RobbieB said:


> I pay $7.50/gallon for propane regularly.
> 
> Blue Rhino propane exchange at the grocery -


Yeah, try heating a house that way.  Even RVers hate that method.  It's convenient though.  I've got a whole bunch of those 16 oz bottles that I used to buy when on a good sale and stocked up.  I've still got a box of them and use them on hot days outside on a portable stove when the wife doesn't want to heat up the kitchen.  

But you pay a lot for convenience sometimes.  If I used those 20 lb tanks very often, I'd buy a tank and refill it from our large tank.  I'll probably do that once the 16 oz ones are gone.  We don't go camping much anymore.


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## Diabel (Feb 12, 2018)

It would be interesting to see different LPN prices by state/prov. Plus, the same for kWh prices for different time of use by state.

Btw I just put a deposit on a Mitsubishi Zuba Air source heat pump, i hope I did not make a mistake.


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## JimBear (Feb 12, 2018)

I just put 300 galllon in @ $1.58 galllon.  I run furnace, water heater, kitchen stove & clothes dryer. Burning about 1200 - 1400 gallon year. That will go down significantly with 5 new windows, more attic insulation & crawl space insulation. The wood stove will be getting installed this summer/fall. I had an electric water heater, dryer & range. Electric bill average was $225 month, electric bill now average is $100 month. It will get better with newer refrigerator & chest freezer.


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## JimBear (Feb 12, 2018)

According to my lastest electric bill I am paying about $.20kw


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## Sprinter (Feb 12, 2018)

JimBear said:


> I just put 300 galllon in @ $1.58 galllon.  I run furnace, water heater, kitchen stove & clothes dryer. Burning about 1200 - 1400 gallon year. That will go down significantly with 5 new windows, more attic insulation & crawl space insulation. The wood stove will be getting installed this summer/fall. I had an electric water heater, dryer & range. Electric bill average was $225 month, electric bill now average is $100 month. It will get better with newer refrigerator & chest freezer.


Oh, you'll be in great shape once all that work is done.  Good going.  Depending on usage, that clothes dryer could still be a large energy draw.  We actually enjoy drying clothes on a rack indoors near the stove with a small fan blowing over the stove, and a nice outdoor swivel style dryer outside in summer.


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## Sprinter (Feb 12, 2018)

JimBear said:


> According to my lastest electric bill I am paying about $.20kw


Yeah, compared to the NW, that's a lot.  We're at about .06 here now via our PUD.  But that just illustrates how differing energy costs drive different strategies.


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## begreen (Feb 12, 2018)

Diabel said:


> It would be interesting to see different LPN prices by state/prov. Plus, the same for kWh prices for different time of use by state.
> 
> Btw I just put a deposit on a Mitsubishi Zuba Air source heat pump, i hope I did not make a mistake.


The Zuma has the Hyper heat technology. Should work fine. Keep us posted on performance with a new thread in the Green Room.


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## JimBear (Feb 12, 2018)

I have a two wire clothes line that’s 30’ long for spring-fall drying. Nothing quite as insane as walking in the house when it’s sunny, breezy & 90 degrees outside to find the dryer burning propane . Lots to do but it all takes time & money, just doing a little & a time.


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## Sprinter (Feb 12, 2018)

JimBear said:


> Nothing quite as insane as walking in the house when it’s sunny, breezy & 90 degrees outside to find the dryer burning propane


Now that shows good sense, IMO.  Or any other energy source for that matter.

I don't know how many people spend tons of money on solar projects, and then keep running clothes dryers.  Maybe it's just me, but makes no sense on the "green" scale.


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## Diabel (Feb 12, 2018)

begreen said:


> The Zuma has the Hyper heat technology. Should work fine. Keep us posted on performance with a new thread in the Green Room.



I sure will.


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## Diabel (Feb 12, 2018)

So why are the prices for electricity so different in different states? It can't be the state tax...


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## Sprinter (Feb 12, 2018)

Diabel said:


> So why are the prices for electricity so different in different states? It can't be the state tax...


This may be a simplistic answer, but it's mainly the cost of producing the energy from differing methods.  For example, coal-fired plants cost a lot more per KWH than hydro-electric.  There are other examples, but that's the meat of it. The other factor is profit.  Many (maybe most) utilities are privately owned and have to make a profit in a large market.  The other common distribution system is through PUDs (Public Utility Districts) which are publicly owned and regulated.  They are usually the cheapest systems, such as where I am, with the PUD buying most of their energy from Bonneville Power which comes from the dam system on the Columbia River and Snake River.  Just to illustrate a few factors.


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## weatherguy (Feb 13, 2018)

Diabel said:


> So why are the prices for electricity so different in different states? It can't be the state tax...


It depends on the carrier. In Mass we can choose out carrier and shop around for cheaper Rates. Some places I go to in Connecticut are silly high. The new mini splits are pretty efficient and if you can get a decent elec rate it wont cost much. I use wood to heat as much as I can so I only have to buy one tank of oil a year (hot water is oil) but depending on where you live the prices really vary for fuel.


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## jetsam (Feb 13, 2018)

Diabel said:


> So why are the prices for electricity so different in different states? It can't be the state tax...



On Long Island, it's because the utility (which is a monopoly) ran itself into the ground (due to corruption, which I believe we are now to refer to as "mismanagement").  As the government knows, the best way to deal with crippling debt is to take out an even larger loan.  They advertise the electric rates at some ridiculous number like 10 cents/kwh, which is less than half of what they actually charge. Most of what you're paying for is interest on the utility's crushing debt.  Notice how the rich stole the money in the first place and are now getting paid obscene interest on the same stolen money?  Nice work if you can get it.


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## snojetter (Feb 13, 2018)

Woody Stover said:


> Aw crap, I was thinking a mini-split would be the way to go here. Hadn't really done the research yet, though. It *is* a bit warmer down here though..maybe 5 degrees.



To make an air source heat pump really work in a typical cold climate, you need to look into the so-called "extreme heat pumps."  Bryant and Carrier (same company, I believe) were the only providers of such a beast a few years ago, though it sounds like Mitsubishi has joined the fray as stated above.  My knowledge of this is from 4 years ago when we installed ours, so maybe other manufacturers have jumped on board as well.  Ours is set to run down to -20F, though I think our HVAC guy mentioned he should probably reset it shut down at -17F.

The thing about heat pumps is that they are typically sized for the cooling load of a home which is much smaller than the heating load.  The reason for this is that heat pumps are typically 2 speeds - on and off.  If you size a heat pump for the home's heating load and then let it run in the summer, it cycles on and off so quickly because it would crank out huge amounts of cold air (or more accurate stated, it would transfer huge amounts of heat to the outdoors).  Because of the constant cycling, you end up not getting a very good handle on the indoor humidity..it's just not very good at maintaining the target temp and humidy set points.  If the heat pump is sized smaller for the cooling load, there just isn't enough BTU output available to do much good in the winter when you really need it.

Our Carrier unit is a 5-ton system for a house that would normally be spec'd for a 3-ton.  The heat pump is infinitely variable from 50-100% so it runs low and slow during the summer, but can really crank itself up in the winter and keep the far ends of the house comfortable on most any cold winter night.  There is a toaster oven back-up when the temps dip past 20-below.

I keep the Blaze King fired 24-7 pretty much all season, and since the stove qualifies us for off-peak electric rates, we pay a little over half-price for our heat and hot water. Pretty good deal for us, and I'm very pleased with the results.  But it would be a pointless set-up if it was a standard heat pump that shut down at +20 or 30F.


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## peakbagger (Feb 13, 2018)

xman23 said:


> Questions for the heat pump fan boys. I have been considering it for the cabin.  Are you heating and air conditioning with the heat pump? Is it multiple split units? And what brand are you using?
> 
> Thanks Tom



I have a mitsubishi hyper heat from a few years ago installed in Northern NH. I use it mostly for heat in the shoulder seasons. Its nominal 1 ton unit. I run it off of surplus net metered solar power. Fujitsu also sells a cold climate mini split that gets good reviews. 

They work well but some folks dont understand why its different from oil or propane and are disappointed When you flip an oil burner or propane burner you get a lot of Btus real quick and it comes out hot. A minisplit doesnt create heat it just moves it around and it really doesnt put out hot air, its just warm. The units are usually smaller with less heat capacity. Many are just one ton units and that about 12,000 btus an hour. If you are heating up a space from cold, its going to take minisplit a lot longer to heat it up as you are heating all the stuff in the space as well as the air. Thus with minisplit, you need to set the temp at one setting and leave it running or set the timer and run it several hours before you need the space heated. The other issue is as the temps drop the output drops. Its still putting out heat down to -10 F but a lot less of it than at 40 F. 

Many folks dont install them well, they need to be installed well off the ground out of the prevailing wind to keep them from getting filled with snow. Some may come with pan heaters but ifs they fill up with snow and the snow turns into ice you are out of luck unless you rig up a way to thaw it. 

The intent of minisplits in northern new england is mostly to get folks with older less energy efficient homes to have one warm room that they hang out during the day and let the rest of the house stay cool. This cuts the overall heating bill compared to heating the whole house. I have a small house and heat my main floor as well as my upstairs floor with a 1 ton minsplit anytime the temp is above 20 degrees. I heat with my wood boiler whenever its colder but it cuts down on shoulder season demand. I know a few folks with ski cottages and their source of heat is a minisplit with a couple of electric baseboards set quite low to keep the pipes from freezing. They are quite happy with it but do acknowledge that when they get there friday night its goign to take several hour to get up to the desired temp.

They also work great as an AC unit, the COP is lot higher than a typical "window shakers".


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## begreen (Feb 13, 2018)

The OP is in North Carolina. It's a great location for this technology. Also, there are 3 ton high efficiency units now. Fujitsu makes a great smaller units, but they are falling a bit behind Mitusbishi and Daikin in the hyper efficient larger sizes.


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## Woody Stover (Feb 13, 2018)

snojetter said:


> If the heat pump is sized smaller for the cooling load, there just isn't enough BTU output available to do much good in the winter when you really need it.





peakbagger said:


> Many are just one ton units and that about 12,000 btus an hour....Thus with minisplit, you need to set the temp at one setting and leave it running or set the timer and run it several hours before you need the space heated. The other issue is as the temps drop the output drops. Its still putting out heat down to -10 F but a lot less of it than at 40 F. They also work great as an AC unit, the COP is lot higher than a typical "window shakers".


Sounds like there have been a lot of improvements recently so this will be a good time for me to hit the Green Room and get up to speed. I *did* finally break down and install a "window-shaker" last summer. It's about 12K BTU, and seems to run enough to knock the humidity down some, which is my main problem here. It can hit 90% humidity here at night. Not quite that bad inside I don't think, but it can get a bit steamy. I find 78 with moderated humidity to be pretty darned comfortable. The reason we got away with no AC for so long is that it's a wooded area that stays about 5* cooler than in town. It's probably a little more humid though, due to moister soil in the woods as a rule. The roof of the house is also partially shaded and I have some attic insulation.
We have a small house, one room, plus a mud room and a bedroom, so even a single window AC does fine. One of the big reasons for the minisplit would be so we have a backup source of heat and can leave in the winter, and not need the stove tended. Even if it goes to -10 outside, it would only need to be warm enough inside to keep the pipes thawed. Most of the plumbing is in the basement anyway so it would have to be extended cold for a while before it would even be an issue.
With these minimal heating and cooling needs, it sounds like I should be able to get by with a moderately-sized unit.
Thanks, guys, for the Green Room primer!


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## georgepds (Feb 19, 2018)

In my area its screw the unwary customer.. I pay $4/ gallon my neighbor pays $2/gallon

I'm switching to her vendor this summer

If we did not use it for cooking, i would not have it


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## woodgeek (Feb 21, 2018)

I need about 10,000 kWh to heat my house all winter with a ducted, single-speed HP, and I get it at 14.8 cents/kWh 100% PA wind.  So about $1500 per season, no muss, no fuss.

Half of that is in four weeks in Jan-Feb, mind you.

I would easily burn 550 gallons of oil, so it would compete with $3.gal oil or $2/gal propane.


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## Brian26 (Feb 23, 2018)

I looked into heat pumps since I have solar panels but am just going to keep running the oil furnace as oil has been real cheap the past 3 years. I just checked and its $2.12 a gallon here. I just looked at all my delivery slips and paid between $1.39- $2.20 the last 3 years on every fill. I service my own furnace and have all the equipment including a combustion analyzer. I get 86% efficiency out of my 5 year old Beckett NX flame retention burner. When tuned right they burn clean and put out some serious heat.

If 2014 prices come back around it might make economic sense to look into heat pumps but for now im sticking with oil.

Heating oil also crushes propane in BTU content per gallon.

1 gallon of propane = 91,333 Btu
1 gallon of heating oil = 138,500 btu

Here are the historical wholesale prices in New York Harbor.


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## Circus (Feb 23, 2018)

Brian26 said:


> Heating oil also crushes propane in BTU content per gallon.


Both are susceptible to dealer shenanigans. But sometimes their greed backfires. 10 years ago I was truly angry after comparing the LP wholesale price with the price I was charged. The dealer would have made $900 profit selling me 400 gal of propane. So I installed a more eff furnace, solar and alternative heating.  My usage has dropped 66% and if it gets too expensive again, 100%.
  When a dealer contracts with their supplier at a low price and the spot price go's up they charge according to the higher spot price. When they contract at a high price and the spot price go's down they charge according to the higher contract price.  Their speculating cost me money either way. Owning my own tank, I shopped around and found LP for 1/2 the price but I was 10 miles beyond their territory.
https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/


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## georgepds (Feb 23, 2018)

Diabel said:


> So why are the prices for electricity so different in different states? It can't be the state tax...



Because some state PUC commissions let the Ba$tards grab all that they can


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