# Long term planning for power outages



## Badfish740 (Oct 31, 2012)

We've lived in Northwest NJ for almost five years now.  In three of those five years we've had multi-day power outages due to storms.  Now some of this is a function of the storms themselves-Hurricane Sandy this time, the October Noreaster last year, and "Snowmaggeden" before that.  Some it is also a function of the fact that this is a rural area (though I live in a subdivision) and it just takes a while before they get us back on.  The main problem with no power for extended periods for us is no ability to cook indoors easily (electric stove), no hot water (electric HWH), keeping the food cold, and keeping the basement dry.  I'm beginning to seriously look at a standby generator setup powered by propane (no gas here)-maybe even with an automatic start.  They're pretty pricey, but so is missing days of work every year to try to keep my house in one piece.  Anybody have one of these units?  I'm not looking to be able to run my house as if nothing happened, I just want to be able to run essential systems without running electrical cords through a window, down the basement steps, across the living room, etc...  It would also be nice to have something with an enclosure that could run at night with little disturbance to others.  

Finally, I'm really leaning toward converting the house to hot water baseboard for more than a few reasons anyway.  I'm seriously considering a non-pressurized system with some homemade solar flat plate collectors for supplemental heat.  Obviously we'll need power to run the boiler pump, but I'm hoping that wouldn't be a huge load.  Much better insulation would be a good thing too so that the house could stay warmer longer when I'm not home to stoke the boiler.  Any other good ideas besides stocking up on batteries?


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## semipro (Oct 31, 2012)

I've been thinking of buying a hybrid vehicle (Toyota Highlander), adding some batteries to it, and using it for backup power.
An article on how one person did this with a Prius. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/automobiles/02POWER.html


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## velvetfoot (Oct 31, 2012)

And, at the bottom of the aricle:
"“We would not like to see stresses on the battery pack caused by putting it through cycles it wasn’t designed for,” said Chris Naughton, a Honda spokesman. “Instead, they should buy a Honda generator that was made for that purpose.”


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## FrankMA (Oct 31, 2012)

I've lost power several times over the past 3 - 4 years and finally got tired of not having electricity for up to 6 days at a time. I bought a Honda EM6500SX generator this past September, had a 10 circuit transfer box installed and can honestly say it is one of the best investments I have made recently. I've been without grid power since mid day Monday and aside from having to purchase gasoline to power the generator have not been inconvienced. Last year alone I lost power for 4 days during Irene and then for 6 days during the freak October nor'easter that rolled through.

I live in a rural area and we're usually the last one's to get our power back on line. The generator powers my well pump, forced hot water furnace, fridge, freezer, lights, all the essentials, etc... 95% of my house is powered for use when the power goes down which tends to be quite frequently starting around October and continuing until early spring. I heat my house with wood so my furnace only kicks on to heat my hot water tank.

I spent the extra money for a Honda because of reliability, quietness and the clean power is produces. I work from home so I need to be able to use my computer and other sensitive electronic devices - buying the Honda was a no brainer for me. The last thing I want to hear for 16 hours a day is a jackhammer banging away outside my house driving me and my neighbors crazy.


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## semipro (Oct 31, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> And, at the bottom of the aricle:
> "“We would not like to see stresses on the battery pack caused by putting it through cycles it wasn’t designed for,” said Chris Naughton, a Honda spokesman. “Instead, they should buy a Honda generator that was made for that purpose.”


 
Lawyer speak for "it wasn't designed for this use, do so at your own peril". 

In my case at least, as I mentioned,  I wouldn't be using the factory battery pack.


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## jharkin (Oct 31, 2012)

Interesting discussion.  I put in a transfer switch and bought an inexpensive 3200 watt generator after the 2010 spring floods. Our heat and hot water is gas, laundry stove and all else electric. We have city water but do have a pumped septic (3-4 day reserve tank).

The gen is wired to run (not all at once):

Sump pump
Septic pump
Basement circuit including the internet/CATV/phone gear
boiler/HWH
basement freezer
kitchen circuits(fridge/microwave/toaster/coffee pot, lights)
Living room circuit/TV
bathroom lights
I have the internet stuff on a computer UPS (APC Smart-UPS 750w). Between that and the laptop batteries we can be online for 2-3 hours without the generator. The plan I follow is run the generator 2-3 hours at breakfast and dinner to cook, heat water, shower, chill the fridge and recharge everything.

We have enough flashlights and candles for light, We can manage cooking with the micro, toaster and a camping stove. Wood for heat obviously.


This setup worked really well this time but I have some concerns...
* In a long outage I don't really want to listen to the drone all day to be able to use computers, etc
* If we have a long outage with heavy rain I might have to keep the generator running 24/7 to run the sump pump which eats gas
* If we have an outage with rain while I'm at work the basement could flood before I get the genny up

If we where out in the sticks and had these outages monthly I'd spring for one of those mentioned Honda inverter units.  But for us its maybe once or twice a year, I cant see spending 3-4 grand. What Im thinking Is I instead I might put in a battery backup sump pump, and wire it up to a really big deep cycle AGM battery - say 200Ah, and add an inverter. With this I could power the internet, computer, TV all day on clean power and only run the gen a couple hours in the evening to recharge. I'd get better gas milage out of the generator keeping it heavily loaded when it is running. This would also give me over 12 hour backup reserve for the sump pump in case Im away or be able to run it overnight on battery.

For fun I could even add a small solar panel to top off the battery....


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## Bad Wolf (Oct 31, 2012)

I’m running on backup power as we speak.  This time it’s Sandy, last year it was Irene. 
I oscillated between the automatic 1.21 jigawatt system and a manual plug in as you go setup.

Six years ago I opted for a Troy-Bilt 7550 watt unit, with an interlock on the main panel. It will power the whole house including the pump.  Heat is from the wood fired boiler of course and DHW is off of that.
Last year I got a 2000 watt inverter generator (10 hours on a gallon), for extend periods of low draw (like overnight) for just the boiler, fridge, and a couple of lights. 

My reasoning was that for the $3000-$4000 savings I can do the manual setup, refueling and switching.  Up until Irene and Sandy we didn’t lose power that often, and even with these two storms it’s been manageable. 

It would have been nice to have an automatic system but I couldn’t justify the extra expense.  Now if I was gone for extended periods of time or there was someone elderly at home that couldn’t start it up that would be a different matter. 

I’m loving the small generator, it’s a Champion inverter that I got last year after the snow storm, for $400 (new they are $700).  It’s super quite and sips gas.


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## JustWood (Oct 31, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Interesting discussion. I put in a transfer switch and bought an inexpensive 3200 watt generator after the 2010 spring floods. Our heat and hot water is gas, laundry stove and all else electric. We have city water but do have a pumped septic (3-4 day reserve tank).
> 
> The gen is wired to run (not all at once):
> 
> ...


This is my setup also and future plans practically to a T.
I've heard the propane gennys eat 'pain like nobodys business. The money you wood make going to work (if you could even  get to work or work is even scheduled) would be going to the 'painman.


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## btuser (Oct 31, 2012)

I started with a 4000w Coleman Powerback generator that ran the well pump or the furnace+fridge, so I had to do some switching.  It was an awesome generator, good on gas, and I had it for 15 years.  I decided to upgrade when I saw the lights starting to "rev" (didn't feel like digggin' into it).  I still went with a portable, 6500w/8000max.  It's just as good on gas, and the power is very steady.  It's not an inverter model, but the laptops like it fine.  I upgraded the transfer switch to a 10-circuit, and the 30 amp slot goes to a sub panel so I can run some lights in my parent's in-law. 

I really like the idea of the smaller generator for overnight or light daytime loads. Often my dad is the only one home and he needs a light to read.  At night would be great too, but I would have to be careful about an overload in case someone got up to use the bathroom and the well pump kicked on.   I know Honda has a 3000 watt model that can be run in tandem with another so you can get 220v, and they will idle/cycle to conserve gas.  It's a good idea if you want to keep costs small and add later.  Honda are THE BEST that I know of, but boy, they don't come cheap!

Eventually if my parents stay I'll be looking at standby system with automatic transfer, and it will probably be propain.  I can't be home all the time to worry about it, or expect them to wheel it out and get 'er going.  My thoughts on the standby system are:

1. Keep it small, like 7k.  That's enough for a well pump and furnace.   This is emergency power, not grid power.  Anything larger than that and you could be burning bucu gallons of propane per hour of juice.  My friend has an 18Kwh for his _house_, and his bill is hundreds/year just for the test cylcle 1/2hr per week.  At that price I'd be staying in a motel.
2. Propane if you don't have NG.  Diesel/heating oil is great but the extra cost and maint. will more than likely not be worth it (unless you have to buy a tank and already have heating oil, but even then propane is more reliable/simpler)
3. Be careful with the fancy stuff.  You can save a lot of fuel on a load-shedding model but a $500 circuit board is a lot of propane.


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## jharkin (Nov 1, 2012)

LEES WOOD-CO said:


> This is my setup also and future plans practically to a T.
> I've heard the propane gennys eat 'pain like nobodys business. The money you wood make going to work (if you could even get to work or work is even scheduled) would be going to the 'painman.


 
Ive started reading up on things a bit. What I discovered is it wont be cheap to do this right... But OTOH, someone pointed out to me that If I did add a couple small solar panels (say 100-300w) to this setup permanently mounted someplace the whole shebang becomes a small Solar PV install qualified for tax credits. That would chop off half the cost in MA if true.

Having at least some power without relying on gas is looking like it may come in useful someday 
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/0...-gas-stations-as-pumps-run-dry-in-wake-sandy/


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## peakbagger (Nov 1, 2012)

Better watch it on solar tax credit, they are only for grid tied permanent systems. Be aware that places like Harbor Freight stamp everything "qualifies for federal rebate" but thats is inaccurate, they can qualify if used in a permanently installed grid tied PV system only. Do note there are far better deals than Harbor Freight panels out there. 

You can install a battery based grid tie inverter so that you can run off grid with your solar and a generator but you pay a lot more up front ($2,000 to $4000) than a straight grid tied system. You do get a fed rebate of 30% plus whatever the state kicks in so its not all bad but realize the initial extra ocst for battery backup will buy a nice generator and lots of gas cans.


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## EatenByLimestone (Nov 1, 2012)

I'd take a different route. For cooking, get a nice grill that you can use outside in the summer when the power is on, and outside in the summer when the power is off. It will keep the heat outside and the inside cooler. Many grills have a small burner on the side so they can be used to heat water for cooking and washing.

For lighting, an oil lamp can store in a small place and the fuel can be kept for years.

A small generator can be run inexpensively to keep food cold, and the sump pump going. If you calculate the power draw on that blower for your furnace you can quickly charge batteries and run the blower off of them so you are saving fuel and not running the generator all the time. Right now NYC, NY and parts of CT are out of gasoline. I'd plan on not having any.  Edit: It looks like gas may not be available in some places for another week.  http://www.cnbc.com/id/49642174



Matt


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## BrotherBart (Nov 1, 2012)

The gasoline thing is easily handled. In the Fall I bring home twenty gallons in five gallon cans. Enough to run for a week. In the summer what hasn't been used in power outages gets burned off in the garden tractor, saws and finally around August the truck. Then do it all over again in the Fall. Once a month I fire the gennys for ten minutes or so and shut off the fuel and suck the carbs dry.

The cost of whole house auto start units would put us in a five star hotel for a lot of nights. With room service. Our problem in winter in 900 feet of snow in the way between us and the road.


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## jharkin (Nov 1, 2012)

Yeah I figured the comment about solar credits was too good to be true.  

In any case I really should have a battery backup pump.  If we lost power while Im at work in a situation like the 2010 rains the basement would flood before I got home. Piecing one together from components with a bigger battery to have the option to run the inverter seems to make sense. Adding the solar panel is more for a fun project than anything else.

On a bang for the buck basis the smart move would probably be to get one of these HF 2 stroke jobs.


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## EJL923 (Nov 2, 2012)

I went minimalist.  My wife and i don't have kids, so it made the decision a little easier.  I hated spending a lot of money on a generator that may get used every once in a while.  Though, the last few years could blow that comment out of the water.  Anyway, i did spend a lot, but on a Honda EU2000i inverter.  It can power my refrigerator, stove blowers, microwave, tv...  My biggest thing during last years October snowstorm was boredom and not being able to power the fridge.  The insert did a somewhat adequate job without the blowers.  Once the sun went down, i went inside and listened to a radio.  We keep (4) 5 gallon buckets of water in the basement, this is used for water for flushing or anything else you might need.  We also keep cases of bottles water in stock.  Cooking is either microwave or gas grill or camp stove.  If needed, we have plenty people around we can use for showers who have a generator.  Not as convenient, but for me i feel like i'm getting my money's worth.  I tailgate, camp, and do other outdoor things that i can use my generator for.  I can also run 10+ hrs on a gallon of gas.  As you can see, that would be helpful in terms of the long lines you see now.  Each family has their own needs, but that's what works for me.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 2, 2012)

We filled the two bathtubs.  Hint:  make sure the plugs hold back the water.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> The gasoline thing is easily handled. In the Fall I bring home twenty gallons in five gallon cans. Enough to run for a week. In the summer what hasn't been used in power outages gets burned off in the garden tractor, saws and finally around August the truck. Then do it all over again in the Fall. Once a month I fire the gennys for ten minutes or so and shut off the fuel and suck the carbs dry.


 
Yup.  I keep a 5 gallon can full all the time. Enough for 14hr run time at half load on my set... which could get us though a week if we only use it for critical items.  Looking at whats happened in this storm I think I may get a second can and keep 10gal on hand. Probably also get a long hose for my siphon pump so in a real emergency I can take some out of the 20gal gas tank on the Pilot.

I wonder how many of these folks in gas lines heeded the warnings and filled up their cars and cans before the storm.  Even so its heartbreaking to watch the news.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 2, 2012)

NYC may be rethinking their planning, i understand the subway is STILL under (salt) water and may be down for months.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 2, 2012)

I Wonder how long the Volt could power your house with its 400LB Li-ion Battery fully charged. Probably for days or a week or so.
http://gm-volt.com/2012/11/01/a-chevy-volt-as-an-emergency-electricity-generator/


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I Wonder how long the Volt could power your house with its 400LB Li-ion Battery fully charged. Probably for days or a week or so.
> http://gm-volt.com/2012/11/01/a-chevy-volt-as-an-emergency-electricity-generator/


 
Reading the article, he is running off the 12v starter battery - not the big traction battery. I see a couple problems/questions relying on this:

#1 - The starting battery not deep cycle.  Running it down a few times with an inverter is a fast way to ruin a starting battery.
#2 - How does the volt recharge the starter battery? Will it charge it off the traction pack? or just start up the engine?


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 2, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Reading the article, he is running off the 12v starter battery - not the big traction battery. I see a couple problems/questions relying on this:
> 
> #1 - The starting battery not deep cycle. Running it down a few times with an inverter is a fast way to ruin a starting battery.
> #2 - How does the volt recharge the starter battery? Will it charge it off the traction pack? or just start up the engine?


I under stand the motor will come on automatically if the starter battery becomes discharged ,would be a great selling feature for the car to be able to power your house form your car.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I under stand the motor will come on automatically if the starter battery becomes discharged ,would be a great selling feature for the car to be able to power your house form your car.


 
Thats the thing - if it has to run the gas engine to recharge the starter battery its no better than hooking up an inverter to any other car. I guess I dont see the advantage if you can utilize the big battery.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 2, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Thats the thing - if it has to run the gas engine to recharge the starter battery its no better than hooking up an inverter to any other car. I guess I dont see the advantage if you can utilize the big battery.


Agreed ,it would be a shame not to be able to use that huge energy storage contained in a fully charged volt drive battery. What a great commercial ,the whole neighborhood is dark except 2 house all lit up cuz they have volts in the driveway hooked up to their power supply.


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## btuser (Nov 2, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Reading the article, he is running off the 12v starter battery - not the big traction battery. I see a couple problems/questions relying on this:
> 
> #1 - The starting battery not deep cycle. Running it down a few times with an inverter is a fast way to ruin a starting battery.
> #2 - How does the volt recharge the starter battery? Will it charge it off the traction pack? or just start up the engine?


The Volt is able to run for 40 miles without the engine, so if you never drive farther than that I guess it would charge (unless the charging unit also charges the starting battery.  I'm going to guess the engineers figured this out.  

I'm pretty sure the Volt's gas engine charges the car's (main) battery and that is what runs the electric motor + electrical systems of the car.  It would make sense that the starting battery is drawing from the traction battery.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

If the starting battery is fed from the main then yes I agree this would work fine and probably much more efficient than any portable gen.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 2, 2012)

I have started use deep cycle in my truck .I make too many short trips and the regular batteries just dont hold up in those conditions. If i add a higher amp alternator it would make an excellent generator although use a lot of gas.


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## btuser (Nov 2, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Agreed ,it would be a shame not to be able to use that huge energy storage contained in a fully charged volt drive battery. What a great commercial ,the whole neighborhood is dark except 2 house all lit up cuz they have volts in the driveway hooked up to their power supply.


Even though it's a big battery (495lbs) it's listed at 18 kw/h.  I know it's juice in it's pure form so let's say 90% efficient.  If a gas generator (5kw) is only 30% efficient, and runs about 1/2 the time doing nothing it's true efficiency is only 15%.  You could do better by shutting down and only using a few hours/day but I don't roll that way.  I'm a (bt)user.

There's 36 kw/gallon in gasoline, so the volt at 90% (18kw/h * .9 = 16.2 kw/h storage) and a generator at 15% (36kw/h * .15 =  5.4kw/h per gallon)  you're storing only 3 gallons of gas in the Volt in the battery.   I'd love to know the efficiency of the Volt's charging circuit (I'd imagine close to 30%) so I could do the numbers.  It may turn out to be much better than your typical generator due to the battery's storage buffer.  It would act as built-in load shedding, and you'd only be using what you need as you need it.  I'm sure the car is smart enough with just some software changes and the correct transfer switch.   

Of course, no matter how many warning stickers you put up a whole new group of people would be running their cars in the garage.


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## woodgeek (Nov 2, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Yeah I figured the comment about solar credits was too good to be true.
> 
> In any case I really should have a battery backup pump. If we lost power while Im at work in a situation like the 2010 rains the basement would flood before I got home. Piecing one together from components with a bigger battery to have the option to run the inverter seems to make sense. Adding the solar panel is more for a fun project than anything else.
> 
> On a bang for the buck basis the smart move would probably be to get one of these HF 2 stroke jobs.


 
I've got a sump pit in my finished basement about 18" from carpeting. After reviewing a LOT of options for my sump, I opted for a commercial battery backup pump....the "Watchdog Special" middle of the road...not their cheapest or their most expensive. Thinking about it for a while, I came up with a lot of scenarios that it covered...when I'm asleep or out of town during that freak thunderstorm, when the (quality) primary pump fails for some reason, when the genny running the primary quits for a couple minutes during a maximum water event, when the genny won't start and can't be revived quickly, etc. The commercial system also has a 'low water' alarm on the battery, which will be a PITA when it goes off, but better than a dead battery. Folks on the internet don't like the batteries Watchdog sells, say they only last a couple years. Whatever, I want the piece of mind and my local hardware store sells them. I sized out the battery to nominally cover the Irene event last year (~6" rain). Etc.

During this event I had my HF genny ready to go, and ran the primary sump off that during the major water. And I still had backup if the genny failed.

My (cheapo) plan for my all-electric, flood-prone house is:
$250 for the backup sump
$100 for the HF genny
$65 for nice steel 5 gal Jerry can, a 1 gallon oil-gas mixing jug, stash of 2-stroke oil, plugs, etc.
$50 for a bunch of indoor extension cords.
$35 Coleman propane camp stove and some 1 lb tanks
existing wood insert.

On day 4 w/o power we still have space heat,  a fridge, a dry basement, plenty of CFL light, can cook, and had warm water in the DHW tank.

I am currently considering wiring in a manual transfer switch and getting something like a 2000W inverter generator.....but I'll prob wait a couple months and then decide if I still want. The wife likes her comforts...I may do it for her.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 2, 2012)

WG
Have you considered a water powered sump pump? I just hooked up one  and that baby pumps some serious water.


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## woodgeek (Nov 2, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> WG
> Have you considered a water powered sump pump? I just hooked up one and that baby pumps some serious water.


 
I did but nixed it b/c I wanted something 'automatic', and for the water power then it would have to be hard plumbed and in my finished basement that would be tough to run the supply.  During Irene my mid-size Zoeller primary was only running ~50% duty cycle (for about 36 hours).  The battery guy could (nominally) cover that w/o help.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 2, 2012)

My  water meter   is 2 feet away fron my sump so it was an easy install.  Wont work if you are on a well that needs an electric pump. I also have two sumps the second if and when the pump fails in the first one .


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## Highbeam (Nov 2, 2012)

Thinking about downsizing from a Champion 4000 that gets 12 hours from 5 gallons to a honda 2000i for cleaner power, better fuel economy, and quietness.

I have a standard fridge in the house and a relatively modern upright freezer in the garage. Can a 2000 honda handle these two firing up at the same time? It's not about the plated amperage of the firdges, it's about the surge load so how does your honda 2000 do?


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> I did but nixed it b/c I wanted something 'automatic', and for the water power then it would have to be hard plumbed and in my finished basement that would be tough to run the supply. During Irene my mid-size Zoeller primary was only running ~50% duty cycle (for about 36 hours). The battery guy could (nominally) cover that w/o help.


 
I had the same concerns, and also considered operating costs.

I read that they use a gallon of water for every 2 gallons pumped. We have had storms that overwhelmed my 1/3HP pedestal pump - probably 2500-3000 gph. using 1500gph from the city water to pump that would cost me $15 dollars per hour at our tiered water rates (and it would only take 10hrs running at that rate to push me into tier 3 rates and drive the cost to $30 per hour).


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

Since we are talking pumps.  Our problem is a stone basement and a high water table. In 2010 the spring rains started to overwhelm our primary 1/3hp and it was running 24/7. So I want a backup capable of 2000+ gph @5ft

In that size range Im looking at around $800-$900 for a decent system.  One example is the Zoeller 510 which uses a high quality 12v Marine bilge pump (Rule 4000) and gets about 6 -7 hr runtime on an 80Ah battery. But its almost $700 before you even buy the battery!

Doing some investigation I determined I could piece together my own setup using individual components, and add more capacity and extra house backup capability for similar money.

A setup Im considering:

Rule 4000 pump (10A @ 12v) - $200  (from a marine supply house)
piping and float switch - $75
Universal Battery Group 4 deep cycle 200Ah 12v - $350
Powermax 35A 3 stage deep cycle charger/maintainer - $100   (from solar/backup power supply houses)
Xantrex 600watt pure sinewave inverter $150
wiring, box/misc $100
Total: $950



For about $100 more than a canned system I get over double the backup pump runtime and the ability to run some light 12v and 120v loads around the house. In a long outage I could charge the battery off the generator for 2-3 hr twice a day and run the pump, laptops even a small TV all day. Also the battery and charger are probably better quality and longer lasting than the stuff in those canned battery sump systems.

This is just one option I pieced together on a couple hours research. I am going to do more research before buying anything.


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## timfromohio (Nov 2, 2012)

I've spent a good deal of time thinking about this sort of thing and here is what I currently have in-place.  Background - live in NEOhio in a 1970 split level.  Well insulated, wood heat (gas backup), can live in the lower level in the summer comfortably without AC.

Water - relatively shallow well with submersible well pump.  I can run the well pump off of my generator (wired into transfer switch - more details below) or, for longer term outages, I can yank the pump and use a well bucket.  Further, I have a Big Berkey water filter, keep campden tablets (handy hard cider also), iodine crystals, and bleach on hand - variety of ways to filter water.  I have access to multiple rain barrels along with local spring.

Heat - hey, this is hearth.com!  PE insert in lower level of home, Napolean 1150P in kitchen level.  Can use the two burners to convenienty cook with wood indoors if necessary.

Electric - I have a manual transfer switch wired in to my main panel.  I have a 7200W continuous duty gas generator.  I keep it full of gas, keep 20 gallons of gas arond for short-term storage (very frequently rotated with the gas used for mowing/tilling), and an additional 20 gallons of gas that has been treated for long-term storage.  I rotate the treated gas annually.  My plan with the generator is not to replicate "life as usual", but to cycle the well pump, charge deep cycle batteries, etc.  I also have an 800 watt inverter that I can use off of the vehicles.  Principle tasks for it are (1) cycle the deep freezers in the garage and (2) power sump pump if necessary.

Basement - very active sump pump with heavy rain.  I have a 1/2 horse sump which is AC.  Watchdog backup sump pump which performed well ealier this week during its first real test.  I also keep a second duplicate AC sump with pvc pre-installed so that if the primary one dies, I can swap on the fly.  Finally, I have another generic backup pump for either the basement, back patio, or whatever might need it.  This is stored in a 5 gallon bucket with hole drilled in it so I can plop it down where ever it is needed.  Garden house and extension cord are kept coiled inside of the bucket for fast transportation and setup.

Future plans - I'm currently planning a deep cycle battery bank that can be trickle charged with solar, charged with grid AC, or charged via the gas generator when it's operating.  I'd like this to run both small-draw items like fans as well as be able to cycle the battery backup sump.  I'm ordering a second DC pump as back up to the Watchdog.  In an extended outage, I wonder how long that small DC pump would last with frequent cycling?  Also looking at expanding my rain water storage with IBCs instead of the smaller rain barrels I currently use.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

Tim-

You seem to be thinking along the same lines I was, just more/bigger loads. What capacity battery bank where you thinking of?


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## timfromohio (Nov 2, 2012)

Not sure yet - I need to figure out power consumption of the battery backup pump and time its cycling rate.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

You might find this helpful  http://www.solar-electric.com/decybafaq1.html


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## semipro (Nov 2, 2012)

All this talk of combinations of bigger and smaller generators makes me wonder if you use a smaller, quieter, efficient generator like Honda 2000 augmented with some batteries and an inverter/charger to handle both the constant loads like lights and fridge as well as short-term higher loads like well pumps. 

You could either run the generator constantly and use the additional capacity of the batteries/inverter only for high loads or (more elegantly) you could size the battery/inverter combination to handle all loads with the generator coming on only as needed to recharge the batteries. (I realize that this generator is not electric start but I'm talking conceptually here). 

The battery/inverter setup (basically a UPS) could handle short outages without any generator. 

Doesn't sound cheap or easy though.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

semipro said:


> All this talk of combinations of bigger and smaller generators makes me wonder if you use a smaller, quieter, efficient generator like Honda 2000 augmented with some batteries and an inverter/charger to handle both the constant loads like lights and fridge as well as short-term higher loads like well pumps.
> 
> You could either run the generator constantly and use the additional capacity of the batteries/inverter only for high loads or (more elegantly) you could size the battery/inverter combination to handle all loads with the generator coming on only as needed to recharge the batteries. (I realize that this generator is not electric start but I'm talking conceptually here).
> 
> ...


 
That's kind of what Im doing... It wouldn't make economic sense except for the fact that I already have the generator and need the battery setup no mater what for the sump backup.  I *think* its not much added cost to make the battery take double duty which is why I'm considering it.

 The trick is the generator has to be sized just a little bigger than your averaged load so it can recharge the batteries between power spikes.  In effect you are building a power system for the house that works like a gas/electric hybrid. which is another part of the motivation here - its kind of a fun engineering project  Oh the fun Id have designing and building a system if I lived in an off grid cabin someplace he he he



(OTOH If I lived in a house didnt have any pump loads to worry about I'd get he Honda 1600w inverter gen only and be done with it.)


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## woodgeek (Nov 2, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Since we are talking pumps. Our problem is a stone basement and a high water table. In 2010 the spring rains started to overwhelm our primary 1/3hp and it was running 24/7. So I want a backup capable of 2000+ gph @5ft
> 
> In that size range Im looking at around $800-$900 for a decent system. One example is the Zoeller 510 which uses a high quality 12v Marine bilge pump (Rule 4000) and gets about 6 -7 hr runtime on an 80Ah battery. But its almost $700 before you even buy the battery!
> 
> ...


 
I had drawn up a similar system at one point, and thought about getting a magnum inverter/charger that would autoswitch a couple 120V circuits (for $600 more than your charger and inverter)....but never pulled the trigger.

I guess it comes down to whether the 'overwhelm' events only happen rarely and with large advance warning (like a hurricane) or if they can also happen sporadically (i.e. a good 'once in every few years' thunderstorm).  If the latter is possible....then you do def need a bigger automatic system.

Looks like your total cost is comparable to a (quality) 2000W inverter generator that would be capable of powering a 1/2hp or larger pump (a more conventional option).  And the battery system would likely be 'zero down time' unlike a generator.  And with this system you could get a 'cheaper' or smaller generator to keep the system going for long duration events....


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## timfromohio (Nov 2, 2012)

I'd like to get to the point where I need the generator only to charge a battery bank - the battery bank could manage all loads (not simultaneously).  I'd also like a better way to store more fuel than 5 gallon cans (I store these in a metal cabinet made for storing flammables). 

You guys with the whole-house generators (like the Generac) - are you able to control when it comes on line manually?  It seems that most of these setups have either a timer and turn on after detecting no grid power after a set time period or are designed to turn on almost immediately?  I like the idea of one that is hard plumbed into a natural gas line, but would still like manual control.  I can envision any sceranio where I'd need or want to run any generator constantly - they are simply too loud and inefficient.


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## peakbagger (Nov 2, 2012)

GIve it a few years, small natural gas fired fuel cells are getting close.


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## maverick06 (Nov 2, 2012)

There are lots of questions here that dictate what you want. Be it the electric hot water heater, the AC or just the fridge?  I got tired of the power outages and bought a little inverter generator so that i could power all my electrics safely. Its been wonderful. I just lent the generator out to my aunt a few wiles away who is still without power. It will only power the small stuff (2000watt) but it does all that i need. But this all depends on your needs, for me, its perfect, thanks to my insert! maybe not for you.


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## jharkin (Nov 2, 2012)

timfromohio said:


> I'd like to get to the point where I need the generator only to charge a battery bank - the battery bank could manage all loads (not simultaneously).


 
That sounds like a big battery... like off grid house size.......


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> I had drawn up a similar system at one point, and thought about getting a magnum inverter/charger that would autoswitch a couple 120V circuits (for $600 more than your charger and inverter)....but never pulled the trigger.


 
Do you have a model #? I thought those magnum energy inverters where big $$$$. I did see one Xantrex unit - the Prosine 2.0  - that has a 2kw inverter, charger (100A) and auto transfer circuits, but even that was over $1200... and way overkill for small backup needs. Probably need over 500Ah of battery to feed that beast.


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## Ehouse (Nov 3, 2012)

Two thoughts on water pumping;  I think they make 110 submersibles and probably soft start models that don't require the high starting amps, also, it seems to me that a large water holding tank in the basement with a booster (or hand or pedal) pump would supply plenty of emergency water.  You could even have the tank in the attic or buried above the house for gravity feed.

Ehouse


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## timfromohio (Nov 3, 2012)

jharkin said:


> That sounds like a big battery... like off grid house size.......


 Not really - my disclaimer in ( ) of "not simultaneously is key.  The biggest draw items I have are my well pump and sump pump. 

Regarding water pumping - you can move water all day long with small, 12V pumps if you don't have to work too hard against gravity.  Not much volume, but but it work.


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## timfromohio (Nov 3, 2012)

The best water situation I can think of is artesian well or spring above house level coupled with a cistern feeding into the house via gravity.  Of course, I'm sure our modern landscape is just teeming with properties ripe for this setup!


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## Ehouse (Nov 3, 2012)

timfromohio said:


> The best water situation I can think of is artesian well or spring above house level coupled with a cistern feeding into the house via gravity. Of course, I'm sure our modern landscape is just teeming with properties ripe for this setup!


 

Next best would be to create this set up with a wind mill water pump or hydraulic ram pump.


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## woodgeek (Nov 3, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Do you have a model #? I thought those magnum energy inverters where big $$$$. I did see one Xantrex unit - the Prosine 2.0 - that has a 2kw inverter, charger (100A) and auto transfer circuits, but even that was over $1200... and way overkill for small backup needs. Probably need over 500Ah of battery to feed that beast.


 
The cheapest I found was this....
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wc...gclid=CM_Sr-r3srMCFUWo4AodKRQAzQ#.UJUgZYXP8uw

but I don't really need auto-transfer...let alone to pay that much...just blue skying different ideas.


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2012)

Interesting, but yes I agree its a bit much.  I'd never want to pull 1200 watts continuous, need a really big battery to support that for more than a few minutes... and the 70amp charger- going with the C/8 slow charge rule you are looking at 560Ah... a lot of battery for this purpose.


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## webbie (Nov 3, 2012)

You've probably thought of this, but relying on gasoline - as shown by the lines in NJ now - is probably only good for the very short term...perhaps a week, unless you have large and safe storage.

Diesel might be able to be stored better?

In any case, backups which are not tied to the outside world are definitely the best - even if they only power a few things on occasion. For relatively windy areas, there are decent $600 wind machines which can be battery tied. Even though PV is expensive, a small panel to serve as last resort isn't a bad idea...

As with any backup system, there is a point where the percentage of failure of ALL the systems one has access to gets smaller with multiple avenues. For instance, I have Nat Gas which is not dependent on electric or gasoline...but it could go out if larger systems (pipelines) go down. 

As it stands, I'm gonna occupy the middle world - and counting on the nat gas not to go out along with no gasoline available. That means I have nat gas heating (fireplace and other stuff which could be rigged), two small gas generators and a car battery type inverter. That probably covers most all but the "civil unrest" type of power outage. I guess it would not be a bad idea to buy a small nat gas electric generator if I want to be really safe - and a small PV setup with a few batteries!


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## woodgeek (Nov 3, 2012)

jharkin said:


> Interesting, but yes I agree its a bit much. I'd never want to pull 1200 watts continuous, need a really big battery to support that for more than a few minutes... and the 70amp charger- going with the C/8 slow charge rule you are looking at 560Ah... a lot of battery for this purpose.


 
You would think that someone would sell a charger/sine inverter/switch in the 600W/800W surge for something like $400....it would make a nice DIY UPS with a marine battery....but as far as I can tell...no one has. Of course, the Chinese might come out with one next week....

For the record, I like this Chinese pure-sine inverter (for the price):
http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-EL2200-Elite-Watt-Inverter/dp/B003INJ3VI
and the same outfit sells a series of higher power products


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2012)

Web-

I agree with your thinking. Its the scene in NJ that got me thinking about this (as others). We have never had an outage like htat in the past but we all know the first time it does happen we will really wish we had prepared.  I figure its only a matter of time.

There are only a couple loads in my house that I really have to power in a long outage - the septic pump after 3-4 days to empy the tank, the sump pump if the basements flooding. The fridge and freezer for a couple hours a day would be nice to not loose a weeks worth of food.

I have city water (and a camping viral filter if we have to use questionable supply), wood for heat, and NG in the house. Thinking of switching out the electric range for NG for other reasons anyway. If the wood ever runs out the NG steam boiler central heat uses so little electricty to run (basically just the ignitor circuit) pretty much nay battery and a small inverter would do..... Speaking of which, its funny that today with think of steam as so antiquated but it has a lot of forgotten advantages - no pumps or blowers to power, no water pipes to freeze....

Right now I can get away with running the generator only 4-5 hours at light load a day to run the critical stuff. Having a batter/inverter system would probably let me cut that down to maybe 2-3hr a day running at heavy load. That would probably let me stretch 10 gal to over a week.  Between the generator tank and a couple gas cans I could just keep 2 weeks supply on hand at all times (treated and rotated yearly like BB).  We pretty much always have enough food around for a couple weeks, bottled water, etc,

The other thing is Ive always wanted to experiment with PV  and this gives me the excuse to do a science project   I'd consider a full blown whole house grid tie system if I could get past the issue of solar panels looking out of place on a 200yr old house!


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## jharkin (Nov 3, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> You would think that someone would sell a charger/sine inverter/switch in the 600W/800W surge for something like $400....it would make a nice DIY UPS with a marine battery....but as far as I can tell...no one has. Of course, the Chinese might come out with one next week....
> 
> For the record, I like this Chinese pure-sine inverter (for the price):
> http://www.amazon.com/Wagan-EL2200-Elite-Watt-Inverter/dp/B003INJ3VI
> and the same outfit sells a series of higher power products


 
Interesting... When looking at inverters at place like Northern and some solar sites all the "died on day 1" reviews made me leery of the no name Chinese units.  That's why I was looking Xantrex. As you mentioned Magnum would be even better but $$$$$$$$


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## Ehouse (Nov 3, 2012)

webbie said:


> You've probably thought of this, but relying on gasoline - as shown by the lines in NJ now - is probably only good for the very short term...perhaps a week, unless you have large and safe storage.
> 
> Diesel might be able to be stored better?
> 
> ...


 

Dual fuel gensets (gas, propane) are out there and allow remote start (no choke) on propane.  Pricey though.

Ehouse


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## Adkjake (Nov 4, 2012)

Sandy totally missed us up here, but upon seeing what's going on in NYC and NJ with gasoline supply, in the future I will be putting up 20 gals of gas (4 X 5 gal cans) and a full tank in the car anytime bad weather is forecast. As other posters have noted, if not used by next summer, it will go in to the mower, boat or car.

If nothing else, Katrina, Irene and Sandy have shown us, you may have to be (likely to be??) responsible for your well being for days, be prepared!! The government and relief orgs can't do it all.

I really feel for people down there who's homes are lost or damaged, but at the same time it leaves me shaking my head at how ill prepared people were. How they ignored evacuation orders and preparedness advice. Saw a news report this morning that people in Queens were complaing that FEMA wasn't passing out enough bottled water. WTF? The storm of the decade is being forecast and you can't fill up a jerry can or some gallon jugs with water? Same with food, it isn't a strectch to put up a week's worth of food, a bunch of canned goods, energy bars, a few loaves of bread, peanut butter, etc. Heck you can heat up a can of chili or soup over a candle to at least have a warm meal.

There's been lots of back in forth in the news about Staten Island, and their problems. Story in the NY POST this morning, the Borough President was quoted as saying how shocked he was that at the height of the strom on Mon night, he went to check on one of the evacuation centers they'd set up, had cots set up for over 400 and room for more people. There were 43 people there.


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## TMonter (Nov 4, 2012)

We get Ice Storms here sometimes and about 10 years ago they had a week without power due to the storm. I'm considering buying a Honeywell backup generator through our employee purchase program that is NG/Propane fired in the next few months here.


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## Retired Guy (Nov 4, 2012)

While expensive, marine power systems designed for larger yachts have worked with the battery/generator issues.  I'd look there if I didn't want a traditional (NG or propane) standby system


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## woodgeek (Nov 5, 2012)

Ok, now that power is back on, I can report that the $100 HF genny was a champ for 5+ days.  Had to have two spark plugs, swapping them every 20-30 run hours, cleaning the one I took out with emery cloth--takes 3 mins a day.  Ran my 1/3 hp sump pump (exclusively) for 12 hours, then ran all my other loads.... full size fridge + ~150 W of CFL lights + insert blower + wifi router + small electronics.  I tripped the breaker on the genny once running all of the above.  Afterward, I started running the fridge during daylight only (when the CFL load was lower) and never had a problem. Shut down when asleep.

Our phones and iPad had plenty of games and Netflix for entertainment at <20W.  Also something called 'books'.

Run time on minimal load (blowers, wifi and 1 light), ~9 hours on 1 gallon. 
Under heavy load (i.e. fridge cycling a lot), more like 5 hours on 1 gallon.
Burned ~7 gallons in 5 days.  I will prob buy a second 5 gallon Jerry can.
Started on first light pull every time when the carb was full.  Took 2 light pulls when the carb had been drained.

1 big point for the cheapo plan.  If I go to a transfer switch, all I get is to be rid of cords, light switches work, bathroom fans, garage door openers.  Get TV/Wii that we didn't miss. My space heat and DHW are both 240V.

Load mgmt is def easier with the cords...I would have to go to 2000W min with the tie.


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## TMonter (Nov 5, 2012)

Retired Guy said:


> While expensive, marine power systems designed for larger yachts have worked with the battery/generator issues. I'd look there if I didn't want a traditional (NG or propane) standby system


 
My only issue with marine options is that they are a lot louder and more maintenance intensive than many of the smaller stationary units available today. The other great thing about Propane is it doesn't go stale like Diesel or Gas.


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