# Harmon Pellet boiler



## raybonz (Mar 31, 2008)

Does anyone here have one of these? I would be interested in hearing about them.. Pellet usage, heat output, maintenance etc... 

http://www.harmanstoves.com/callouts.asp?id=48

Ray


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## Sting (Mar 31, 2008)

Thats a nice appliance - There are several good threads by Harmon pellet boiler users over at iburncorn.com

Hope that helps you! I don't wish to take anything away from these nice folks.


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## Richardin52 (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm just putting in a Traeger Pellet boiler this week in my apartment house.  I did not look at a Harmin because I needed a boiler that could put out more BTU's.  The Traeger can be set up for 85,000 BTU's or 130,000 BTU's by taking out a cup in the top auger.  Before I got it I went to a guy that had been using one all winter.  He loved his and showed me how he had his set up and gave me some pointers, plus the rep in my area is very good and is willing to go the extra mile to make sure it is set up properly.

The guy that I talked to said he had paid $5,000. last year for oil (at last years oil prices)  and that he had paid $2,500. for pellets this year and had enough to get him through the rest of the winter.


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## Sting (Mar 31, 2008)

Rich 

Please post pictures and tell me more!


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## nmerrill (Mar 31, 2008)

I just finished hooking one up to my house this past Friday.  It's been the only heat since then, since I needed to take the oil boiler out of the system at that point.
So far, things look good.  The PB105 has presented no significant problems, yet!
It's hooked up via primary secondary plumbing - eventually (next winter) it will feed radiant zones on the first floor, and baseboard on the second.  Right now, it is feeding the existing baseboards.

A few things I have noticed at this early stage:

The combustion blower runs for a long time.  Long after the fire has gone out.  This is going to be a big drag on overall system efficiency.  I'm already thinking about alternative control options to reduce this problem.

The boiler does not have any direct connection to the thermostats, or zone controllers, so it only fires when its one aquastat calls for heat.   What this means is that when a zone calls for heat, the thermal mass/water volume of the boiler maintains supply temps for a little while, but then begins to drop as the cold return water really starts to drag it down.   So, within a few minutes, the supply temps are down to say 150, and that means that the return temps are real low - condensing low.  Now, the boiler decides it needs to fire, and while the ignition system works great, it still takes the boiler another several minutes to get a good burn going.   This is unlike a standard boiler, that gets a command to fire at the first call for heat from the zone, typically.  So the Harmon is now playing catch up, and the baseboards are being fed water that is too cool to be much use, since they really require 170+ water to put out much heat.
Upshot is that I have watched a call for heat from a setback take 1.5 hours, or more, to finally satisfy the thermostat.  I'm not entirely sure that I don't have some other issue contributing to this - flow rates, air in the system, etc.  I'm looking into it...
Now, changing to no set back may be in order.
SO, i am really hopeful that this particular issue will not be as significant running radiant floor since the supply temps are lower, and there will be no setbacks, etc...

The outdoor reset option on the boiler is cool, except that the slope is not adjustable.  So, if max temp is set at 185, and its 25 outside, the boiler calculates that is needs to maintain itself at 160 (1 degree cooler for every 1 degree warmer outside, from 0 deg OAT up).  Great, thats already too cold supply water for the baseboards!  Again, not as significant for radiant panels that require lower supply temps.
You can run it without Outdoor reset.

My low draft was out of spec right from the start, and the adjustment cannot reduce it anymore.  Harmon apparently does not think it will be a problem.  See my first note above for my thoughts on this - long blower runs times, sucking cold outside air across the heat exchangers - at overly high rates, even on low.
I have other thoughts on this problem brewing too.

I have very little data about pellet usage yet....

That's it for now I guess.
Hope that helps!

Nat


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## Sting (Mar 31, 2008)

maybe BrownianHeatingTech will see this and add some suggestions

He was very helpful in thread to my plan.


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## Richardin52 (Apr 1, 2008)

Just wondering why you are using outside air?  I have a 12X 20 boiler room where my PB 150 is going.  I put make up air into the room from the attic above.  I use a trap at the bottom of the pipe similar to a trap you would see on a plumbing fixture. The bottom of the trap rests on the floor with the verticle pipe going up through the ceiling.  If I put my hand in front of the pipe I can feel no cold air but I have never had a problem with make up air running an oil boiler even when tennats are using a cloths dryer in the same room.  This way the air used by the boiler is warm air ie. 75-85 Deg. F. going into the boiler.


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## Sting (Apr 1, 2008)

Rich said:
			
		

> This way the air used by the boiler is warm air ie. 75-85 Deg. F. going into the boiler.



And also dry air - thats better - wet cold outdoor air can sometimes lend to corrosion forming on the combustion fan blade and plenum


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## nmerrill (Apr 2, 2008)

Well, I actually have not set up the outside air connection yet.
I suppose I intended to use it because I'd like the house to be tight (how I spend the rest of my "free" time), and make up air leaking in any available crack doesn't seem like a good situation - particularly if there aren't any!
I also think that outside air supply is required for appliances for things like energy star house certifications.
And lastly, I'm not sure that my "boiler room" is large enough to meet requirements for a burner in the 100K BTU range - though Harmon has no specifications on this in their manual despite this being standard for oil and gas burners.

Off hand, I don't know how to calculate the CFM of the blower based on the high draft I recorded (0.8 I.W.C) but it pulls a lot of air!

It sounds like you are essentially using outside air, just without an actual pipe connection?
How "deep" is your trap?
You don't feel cold air being drawn in the pipe when the boiler runs?  Seems that could only be true if there were significant other sources?

Speaking of which, anyone using any sort of exhaust/intake heat exchangers?


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## Willman (Apr 20, 2008)

nmerrill, any updates on your pellet boiler issues ? Did you self  install ?
Will


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## nmerrill (Apr 22, 2008)

Well, I left it alone for the last few weeks to watch.  It ran fine for that time, besides the episodes well below minimum boiler return temps that occur every time a call for heat comes in from the baseboards (or indirect DHW).  The lag between call for heat, and a good fire, is a little long allowing the boiler temps to get pretty depressed before the good fire can begin catching up.  That said, I have not observed much condensation in the firebox, or vent, if any.

That was right up to Sunday, when I found an error code blinking-   It appears that my igniter is not igniting anymore!  After only what 5 weeks of running, I have a failure...
Tech comes tomorrow to look into it.  Good thing it's been 70 all week!  I guess I better start designing my back up heat source since it seems unlikely that the pb105 will be reliable enough for as solo heat source all winter... bummer.

BTW, yes, self installed.

Nat


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## Willman (Apr 22, 2008)

Nat, can you keep us informed about your boiler ?
Will


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## nmerrill (Apr 23, 2008)

Service dude came today - without any investigating at all, immediately began removing the igniter - replaced it and it fired up. 
Bad igniter after about 5 weeks.  It was a bit blued from heat, but totally clean otherwise.
I'm hopeful that the stories out there about a "bad batch" of igniters is true, and that the new one installed was from a different "batch".
Seems like this should be a recall if it's a known faulty part.
Service guy said he'd been changing a lot of the lately...

I probably won't know if the replacement will last any longer until it gets cold next fall.
In the mean time, its time to work on the propane back up!


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## stephenmoore (Jun 6, 2008)

Hello, I have a PB 105 and heard the Bad batch of igniters story, just had my 5th one installed at the end of my heating season. I am wondering if the fly ash build up on top of the igniter is making them fail. Any one else with this prob ?


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## nmerrill (Jun 6, 2008)

Your 5th in one season?
My second igniter failed after about 3 weeks...
I have not observed much ash collected on the igniter, I'll have to keep an eye on that when I start it back up next fall.
So, Do your service guys have anything to say about your repeated failures?  Have they talked to Harmon about it?  Have you tried to talk to Harmon about it?  This needs to be addressed by Harmon ASAP.   If there was a "bad batch" then they need to recall them!  I can't believe that they would just let shops keep installing them.  Frankly, I think its BS.


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## sinnian (Jun 6, 2008)

Check out www.iburncorn.com  there was something specific about this over there, that I just can not remember now and the site is blocked here at school.

I want to think there is a replacement for something, and that the new models are built with the new something.  I want to think it had something to do with the firebox, but to be honest I can not remember for sure.


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## alaz (Jun 6, 2008)

A local dealer told me that there were ignitor issues; something about it firing too hot and burning out (at least that it was I gleaned).  He said that this has very recently been addressed and that Harman informed dealers to replace when called.  He told me he reviewed his patrons and delivered and installed new ignitor to prevent calls.
I am in the process of trying to make a decision on pellet boilers.  Torn between traeger 150 (seems higher maintenance along with no local dealers), a-maizing heat (concerns about auger system and 100% pellet burning), the bosch system out of maine (logistics and power venting... chimney wont work for me) and the pb 105 (local, fits budget, but concerns over ability to overcome delta T during height of heat system).


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## sinnian (Jun 6, 2008)

alaz said:
			
		

> concerns over ability to overcome delta T during height of heat system).



What is this / ???


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## Sting (Jun 6, 2008)

burning pellets in a Traeger is EZ - No Drama -- Your thinking about corn if you think its hard to burn a Traeger.


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## sinnian (Jun 6, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> burning pellets in a Traeger is EZ - No Drama -- Your thinking about corn if you think its hard to burn a Traeger.



I ran into a thread the other day where you and Brownie were having a 'drama' over your Traeger.  That is one of the reasons why I went with the Harman, you guys were making the Traege seem so difficult.

  However, I am beginning to have a little buyers remorse in not looking in the Traeger in more detail.  The Harman dealer know squat about the boiler, at least the Traeger guy here in  Southern Maine knows his stuff, since that is all he does.


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## Sting (Jun 6, 2008)

yeah - there was Drama!  That a good description - The appliance is a bit undersized for my load - I was looking for ideas to promote a few more BTU out of the pot into the vessel -  He "appeared" to be able to help. But simply kept telling me to fix my piping. And he never could tell me how my piping was wrong. So I gave up asking. And got a nasty PM from Eric for it. 

Its all good! Since then I now have converted my 6 ton corn storage to pellet storage. I don't touch my fuel until its ash.

Yes I am sorry you didn't look at the Traeger because of me and him - with the backorder situation at Harmon  - you still have time. I enjoyed the comment a few days ago " Traeger is too busy making grills - too funny. I usually lurk here now and hold my thoughts, because of all the funny folks a popular site like this can attract. You will find after you live with the Traeger feed system - it has its drawbacks - but the positives are its solid straight forward construction - it feeds anything I give it that will fit past a 3/8 hardware cloth mesh and is ez to keep clean, vs a water tube or a "water wall" boiler as they like to be referred to. I am happier with my older version than I might be with the current draft induced combustion version - that said the basic design is still there and the now standard low water cut off is a good accessory. The draw back of the new version is the stupid design and adaptation onto the boiler of the draft inducer. But we have some ideas how to fix that on another site. 

I may have already over stepped myself and clear words are at times not well accepted here - so Ill go back and lay by my dish now!


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## Sting (Jun 6, 2008)

BTW

Delta T refers to the difference in temperature of energy bearing water to and from the boiler vessel or load loop

Something that you will need to balance your system into

Another subject I have spewed into a waste of bandwidth.


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## alaz (Jun 7, 2008)

Sting said:
			
		

> BTW
> 
> Delta T refers to the difference in temperature of energy bearing water to and from the boiler vessel or load loop
> 
> ...




Hey Sting,
I continue to be concerned about the Harman boilers lack of field exp.  I run two hydrocoils at 180 degrees with the return approx. 157.  One loop is very long (150 feet) and I will be running a taco 0011 to get a gpm of 6.5 (approx.)  I am heating 3600 sq. (both coils at 180 about 1000cfm get approx 72000BTU each, not that I need that, just what fits in 3 ton air handler sized for ac)  Can the Traeger do this?  What do you hate and love about the Traeger.  I am not too handy (at all!) What is the maintenance?  I do not have local dealer.  The Traeger is direct vent, correct.   I believe you said you heat 5000 squ.  What was your annual usage?  Do they make a larger hopper that can be augered/ vacuumed in like they do over in Europe?  If so where can I find one?
If I buy one it would be blind; it would have to be shipped in.  I would like a larger hopper, I need direct vent (chimney not a viable option) and I need a relative is maintenance schedule.  I am not handy enough to mess with the system.  I also do not quite get the issue with the new design...


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## Sting (Jun 7, 2008)

Hey Sting,
I continue to be concerned about the Harman boilers lack of field exp.  I run two hydrocoils at 180 degrees with the return approx. 157.  One loop is very long (150 feet) and I will be running a taco 0011 to get a gpm of 6.5 (approx.)  I am heating 3600 sq. (both coils at 180 about 1000cfm get approx 72000BTU each, not that I need that, just what fits in 3 ton air handler sized for ac)  Can the Traeger do this? 

NO! and yes -- confused ??? me too -- but here first; don't tell me the potential of your system - do a heat loss calculation and tell me what the load needs in BTU's to maintain set point. THEN -- look , your talking about a potential load of 72K times 2 in air handlers -- Baby Boiler has an input of 130k max -  thats input -- as I have noted in other posts the appliance is not as efficient as a modern NG boiler. I get 70% - it does - Browine thinks we should get 80 - who cares - figure 70 for a safe figure. Thats an output potential of 90K - do you want to run two boilers??? it would make a good system - you would have redundant back up if one fails the other would keep you warm till you can bring the second back on line. You will still need a strong traditional fuel boiler for back up - like me you might consider bringing it on line on hi degree days. It will also let you take a vacation or take a break when the emergency room people think you should stay the night!

What do you hate and love about the Traeger.

It was used so it was cheep

I am not too handy (at all!) What is the maintenance?  I do not have local dealer.  The Traeger is direct vent, correct. 

Yes and no check the web site - there is a detailed explanation of the draft requirements - now that said I have an internet buddy that stuffed the smoke pipe out the side of his cottage and that was that - he is doing fine.

I believe you said you heat 5000 squ.  What was your annual usage? 

16 ton corn and/or pellets and a couple hundred therms on NG - that doesn't matter - the heat loss calculation matters - you could need 90k BTU out for a 100 square foot greenhouse in Alaska or heat a 10,000 foot chicken house in Arkansas. 

Do they make a larger hopper that can be augered/ vacuumed in like they do over in Europe?

Hopper size is like the gas tank on your car - all it needs to be is big enough to carry the load for 8 to 10 hours while your at work.

If so where can I find one?

You plan for that before you install so you aren't carrying 10 bags of fuel a day 50 yards from the shed to the boiler room. That plan MUST include a way to easily refill the hopper - my solution is a 4 inc farm auger that pulls replacement fuel in from build storage and drops it into the appliance hopper. You can do the same with a vaccum delivery system. But the point is you need to figure that out --- then install the boiler. not the other way around.

If I buy one it would be blind; it would have to be shipped in.  I would like a larger hopper, I need direct vent (chimney not a viable option) and I need a relative is maintenance schedule. 

Well maintenance schedule depends on the load and the amount of fuel used. The actual stuff to do is the same, its the time between that varies on a bell curve with the bags per day used.

 I am not handy enough to mess with the system. 

Now here comes the reason you will call me a Pontificated Prick but the best advice I can give you is if you don't have "tinkeritus" and if your not handy - you don't want to burn solid fuel in any way shape or form. Sorry -- I have coached some relatively clever folks and had fun doing it and I have tried to explain some stone simple things with no success to others that claimed - well never mind - it never ended well and I was the ass for it.   


 I also do not quite get the issue with the new design.

OK let me take a whack at this one: The old design used a hair dryer fan to force combustion air into the burn pot. It also used a clumsy Honeywell triple aquastat for boiler control. First they ditched the Honeywell for a White Rodgers control but for some reason - and let me assume it was to keep the UL approval - they went to a design that pulled combustion air into the pot. So every time your tinkeritus makes you open the door and check the fire - well the fire dies because the open door short circuits the combustion air .... Then to the draft inducer was built onto the old upper smoke chamber - stop me here if this gets away  so when you connect the smoke pipe to your standing chimney - and you should so in case of a power failure you still have draft - well now you cannot get at the combustion fan to clean it - and if you don;t clean it you loose your combustion air and the flame event sucks. But you will not be put in danger by that problem because lack of combustion air means what - lack of combustion - simply wasted fuel.



ask more questions - I need a drink!
..


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## alaz (Jun 7, 2008)

Let me start by saying I appreciate your answers...their biting thoroughness.
As for the lack of that tinkering inflamation, I am willing to learn.  
My heat loss is in the 50000btu range.  At 100BTU I could go from -20 up to 80 degrees (at least in theory).

I read your discussion with brown.  Your piping my be fine.  But my second zone (150 foot loop) was being circ. by 007.  The head loss in the pex loop was insane and the pump was not doing  the trick.  My wonderful plumber turns up boiler temp and goes with larger nozzle and I was able to get by.  It was at that point I realized I needed to learn.  Your conv. if nothing else reinforced my problem.  So though it seemed frustrating, it re-confirmed work that I will need to get done while piping my new boiler (whatever that may be).  I currently run a system 2000 oil fired boiler (beckett burner) and burn 1050 g a year. I hope this translates into 8-10 tons (I get approx 9 when I do the math, but theory concerns me.)

With all that being said, I have a question I do not know you can answer:  What is your take on the Harman?  Any concerns or questions you would ask a dealer?  I have 2 local options (amaizing heat and harman)...

Last questions: I am unclear is the Traeger a fire tube (I thought it was) and I believe the Harman is...  am I right, and is this good or bad, or just does not matter?


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## Sting (Jun 7, 2008)

Let me start by saying I appreciate your answers...their biting thoroughness.

I hope you might see some humor too!

As for the lack of that tinkering inflamation, I am willing to learn.  

Good - your on the path

My heat loss is in the 50000btu range.  At 100BTU I could go from -20 up to 80 degrees (at least in theory).

OK now let play! Baby Boiler can work this load.

I read your discussion with brown.  Your piping my be fine.  But my second zone (150 foot loop) was being circ. by 007.  The head loss in the pex loop was insane and the pump was not doing  the trick.  My wonderful plumber turns up boiler temp and goes with larger nozzle and I was able to get by.  It was at that point I realized I needed to learn.  Your conv. if nothing else reinforced my problem.  So though it seemed frustrating, it re-confirmed work that I will need to get done while piping my new boiler (whatever that may be).  I currently run a system 2000 oil fired boiler (beckett burner) and burn 1050 g a year. I hope this translates into 8-10 tons (I get approx 9 when I do the math, but theory concerns me.)

It appears common to me that a Plumbers solution for a cold room is simply turn up the heat on the boiler and send greater energy bearing liquid to the load - this equates to higher operational cost for the load and a less comfortable room. We can fix that  by balancing the load - but that come later.

With all that being said, I have a question I do not know you can answer:  What is your take on the Harman?  Any concerns or questions you would ask a dealer?  I have 2 local options (amaizing heat and harman)...

All these options are fine options - its like asking should I buy a Ford - a Dodge - or a Chevy - after all won't each get you back and forth to the grocery store??? Harmon is a little ahead in the curve on the technology that controls the boiler. I think the feed system works well - everyone says the resistance pellet auto lighting sucks - propane auto lighting seams the way to go but that is only in outhouse pellet boilers or far bigger engines. So the auto light feature of the Harmon is not a feature I covet! On the flip side with out auto light - now you idle the boiler till there is a call for heat from the load and that takes a couple pounds of fuel an hour... cost of fuel vs cost of resistance energy and replacing resistance elements --- wash - Maybe??? I like a standing flame and hot boiler to reduce the thermal cycling on the vessel. Amazing often doesn't eat straight pellets well and never dirty or dusty fuel - i have mixed saw dust into my pellets trying to clog the Traeger fed system and it kept up like the Energizer bunny I think Harmon is off the table with the back order drama - Amazing - is a good machine but it looks like a water heater and thats what the base design was - from an old dry cleaner system of heating water. And I think their dealer network is a bunch of Amway salesman but opps too far again... sorry - Maybe Traeger is overbooked too by now - they are after all making grills for summer  hehehe - I just can't let that go!

Last questions: I am unclear is the Traeger a fire tube (I thought it was) and I believe the Harman is...  am I right, and is this good or bad, or just does not matter?

Traeger is a cheep design - not very efficient - vertical tube single pass vessel fire tube boiler. But the fire tubes are orientated and the appliance is built so the tubes are easily cleaned. Harmon is a water tube boiler - opps they like to call them selves a water wall boiler - same business - to clean it you have to GET IN there and its no Picnic. For that there is a better transfer efficiency - but that can easily be lost if you don't clean - and no one does because its a pain. Wait some one will tell you otherwise in a New York minute - ask you dealer about that maybe and see what BS you get. Traeger has the pot fit drama - you have to stand on your head - pivot on your elbow - and slip the heavy pot up onto the feed manifold when you remove and replace it for cleaning - no body is perfect - you have to pick something and deal with the short coming - hopefully you will be happy with the good features. If burning straight pellets - I made a couple of tools so I no longer have to R?R the pot - I also changed the pot a bit and get a better Delta T. 

Your air handlers can be balanced to the load - then the out put of the boiler can be portioned to each loop. 
Thats the opposite of how a plumber would set up the system. But I find myself again skating on thin ice casting dispersions at plumbers so I may as well head for the deep end.
What did the heat loss calculation predict for a water temperature (heat exchanger temperature) necessary to carry each loop load at -20???

If you can afford a BAXI (H S TARM) - if you can find one - buy it - all the above is mute.


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## alaz (Jun 7, 2008)

Great info.  Much appreciated...
My delta t refers to my return temp vs. supply in loop. I say that b/c is there a different one with regard to a boiler; I have limited knowledge and am trying to learn.  Me teach English, so I learn as I go That number is based on coil specs.  180 degree water at 1000cfm (flow rate of 6gpm) returns 157.  Is that what you are asking? *Should I be concerned concerned? * That is putting out about 70000 BTU per coil.  

Based on your info, (Tarm out of my budget) I have a little more "soul searching" but I am leaning on the Harman, local and sounds like it will meet expectations: be warm, go green and save $.   Any last suggestions; warnings etc...
Again Thanks!


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## stephenmoore (Jun 7, 2008)

I am the only owner of a PB 105 in my province, so my service guys have no previous experience to draw on, Harmon will only respond to their authorized service people, not me, the consumer, although I will try again soon. I really think the little clean out door with the thumbscrews above the igniter is a bad idea. They tell you in the manual it only needs cleaning once a season, but I think that's not the case. I'll keep you posted.


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## stephenmoore (Jun 7, 2008)

Hey Alaz, One thing I cam tell you , besides the igniter issue is the 105 has no problem whatsoever keeping up with heating demand. I have recirc pumps on my zones and my loops are typically 200' each. I usually have all 8 zones firing at once. My system is an injection system with a Tekmar 361 as the heart of the mixing. I would think our temps would be similar. Don't let the complexities of it overwhelm you. Once the 105 is burning, it is worry free, and adjustment free. The learning curve is troubleshooting your system.


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## alaz (Jun 7, 2008)

Thanks for all the feedback!
I am moving ahead (today if possible) with the Harman, if I can get one!  I have a good local dealer (actually 3 within 30 miles to choose from).  
I am sure I will have more questions.
talk you soon...


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## Sting (Jun 7, 2008)

alaz

Your in PA ????

Why aren't you thinking Anthracite Coal fueled boiler???  and I am not referring to the 8 month backlogged Harmon VF3000 Coal boiler


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## alaz (Jun 7, 2008)

My goals were to save money and go green.  I looked at a keystoker and did not go ahead because of high ash removal and more CO than oil.  Otherwise I liked the system.. .
They are also backlogged, though not as far.


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## Sting (Jun 7, 2008)

Anthracite coal ( not Bituminous Coal ) has less CO than oil - second only to Natural Gas

You will have LESS ash drama with Anthracite than you will have with pellets - plus you will only burn about half the volume as there are that many more BTU's per pound vs any hi quality pellet fuel - Anthracite will not go bad from improper handling or weather exposure - it will burn wet dry - this year or ten years form now!

I think your passing up an opportunity!


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## alaz (Jun 7, 2008)

Coal may be my best cost alternative, but I spent an hour or so last weekend looking at rice coal, and I just was not comfortable with it.  Bagged is 285 a ton ($55 more than pellets) and I know there is approx 5000 more BTU, but the annual savings was just not enough to make me get over how I felt...
But from a pure economic slant (and there is nothing wrong with that) coal is the better option, but I have to go with what I feel most comfortable.


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## alaz (Jun 7, 2008)

By the way, Stephen, I put my order in today for pb105 and told dealer of your problems with ignitor.  He confirmed there was a bad batch for some time.  Said something regarding a solid black? wire connection.  New and improved  ignitor has blue line in wire.
maybe you can check yours.
Hope that helps.


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## stephenmoore (Jun 8, 2008)

Thanks Alaz, Good luck with your system, drop me a line if you have any more queries. I'll check my igniter wires.


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## nmerrill (Jun 9, 2008)

Hey!  That's the first new bit of information on the igniter issue I've heard beyond the "bad batch of igniters" story.  I'll have to look into that info and see what my last (failed) igniter looks like.  
Still think it's BS that Harman didn't recall if the "bad batch" story was true.  
Hope it is though!


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