# Yay! Finally a Subaru hybrid!



## Swedishchef (Mar 24, 2013)

Well, I am finally proud to say "my" car company is contributing to a greener planet!

This should be a great seller: symetrical AWD hybrid! Woot woot.

http://www.subaru.com/auto-show/nyas-2013.html


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## ironpony (Mar 25, 2013)

do not see others getting to excited over this, so I will say congratulations and enjoy one if this is your dream come true.
Me I'll take the big honkin diesel truck.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 25, 2013)

LOL.

Thanks. I wouldn't call it a dream come true but it is very exciting. Subaru, as far as I am concerned, is the best car manufacturer out there. They have increased sales every year for the past 7 years (including during the recession) and in 2011 they sold more cars in the US than VW.

I would love a pickup truck but I can't afford the gas! Subaru make several diesel models in New Zealand and other southern hemisphere countries but said that the "North American marketis not ready for diesel cars" (which I do not agree with).

A friend of mine has a Hemi 5.7L gas and loves it. At work we used to have a full size Suburban with an 8.1L gas engine (they don't make those engines anymore)...speak about hard on gas!

Andrew


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## Scols (Mar 25, 2013)

A friend just came back from Panama. He said there were Ford Ranger diesels all over the place. I would have loved a Diesel when I had a Ranger.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 25, 2013)

I know scols....if only NA had access to all the vehicles from around the world easier and not just the ones destined for our market.  The problem is even if you import one, who will work on it? The techs here have never seen them.....


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## Scols (Mar 25, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I know scols....if only NA had access to all the vehicles from around the world easier and not just the ones destined for our market. The problem is even if you import one, who will work on it? The techs here have never seen them.....


 I know my wife is from Scotland and Ive seen some cool little trucks over there,but my BIL said the same thing as you. Plus you have to pay to get it here, so its more hassle than its worth.


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## webbie (Mar 25, 2013)

That is probably the only reason I gave up my subie (wifey still has one) - the MPG of AWD is pretty low (24 or so).....

There were rumors of a small clean diesel also...which would have also hauled a small boat a bit better!


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## Swedishchef (Mar 25, 2013)

Scols: I was told to get a car from Australia to Canada would cost about $3000. Not bad considering if I buy a car made in Canada I still pay $1500 freight and delivery!!

Webbie: The mileage of SUbarus has steadily increased over the past few years. The new impreza and crosstrek are getting 36MPG on the highway thanks to a 2L engine and CVT transmission. The diesels get 44 MPG highway! And the diesel Outback has 144Hp, 258 ftlbs of torque at 2000 RPM! And it can tow 3500 lbs. Check it out: http://subaru.com.au/outback/2.0-diesel


AHhhh..can't wait to see the hybrid. Go Subaru Go!


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## charly (Mar 25, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> LOL.
> 
> Thanks. I wouldn't call it a dream come true but it is very exciting. Subaru, as far as I am concerned, is the best car manufacturer out there. They have increased sales every year for the past 7 years (including during the recession) and in 2011 they sold more cars in the US than VW.
> 
> ...


My wife has a Subaru and it's been a great car, bought it used... Guy down the road from us just works on and sells used Subaru's. He's got a huge inventory for used parts as well. People love them up here on the mountain. I'm a diesel fan as well.  My Dodge Cummins diesel one ton with a 5 spd standard gets 22 mpg on the highway ,, for a heavy duty truck I'm very pleased with that.. We had a first year 98 VW TDI beetle as well,,, 44 mpg, another great diesel. Before that an 80 VW diesel Rabbit, and 81 diesel Rabbit pickup... all great on fuel... A shame they screw us out of so many diesel vehicles here in the states.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 25, 2013)

Charly: you're right, that is why they are not in the market yet. The problem is that EPA doesn't care about the volume of polutants but the type of polutants. They are trying to reduce various types of nitrogen containing compounds and VOCs.

However, I am sure the 1980 1/3 diesel spewing black smoke is a lot worse than a new Subaru diesel.... 

Diesels work great but IF they break get costly to repair.

My dad used to have a 1985 GL which had 4X4 hi/low. He ended up parking it in the winter of 1988 (bought a Volvo 740) and never shoveled it out of the snow all winter. Come spring time he sold it to a guy who used it for logging!! It lasted 2 summers logging cut trees for cross country ski trails. What a tank.


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## begreen (Mar 25, 2013)

Loved my Legacy wagon and kind of miss it. I'm going to try out an Impreza to see if it still has the moxie. Subaru makes a diesel but doesn't think there is the market for it here. Maybe Mazda's diesel in the 6 will be a wake-up call.


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## firefighterjake (Mar 26, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Scols: I was told to get a car from Australia to Canada would cost about $3000. Not bad considering if I buy a car made in Canada I still pay $1500 freight and delivery!!
> 
> Webbie: The mileage of SUbarus has steadily increased over the past few years. The new impreza and crosstrek are getting 36MPG on the highway thanks to a 2L engine and CVT transmission. The diesels get 44 MPG highway! And the diesel Outback has 144Hp, 258 ftlbs of torque at 2000 RPM! And it can tow 3500 lbs. Check it out: http://subaru.com.au/outback/2.0-diesel
> 
> ...


 
My wife loves her 2003 Legacy . . . next year I suspect we'll be selling it and getting her another Legacy or an Outback . . . the only thing she doesn't like is the gas mileage which I told her seems may have been addressed with the CVT transmission.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

The CVT helps the mileage significantly...


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## Scols (Mar 26, 2013)

webbie said:


> That is probably the only reason I gave up my subie (wifey still has one) - the MPG of AWD is pretty low (24 or so).....
> 
> There were rumors of a small clean diesel also...which would have also hauled a small boat a bit better!


 It seems like an MPG in the mid 20's is standard for this type of car. My wifes CRV averages 26mpg and friends with Rav4's are in the ballpark.I would love to see more diesels in this size range,especially after the gas shortages following Sandy.


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## charly (Mar 26, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> My wife loves her 2003 Legacy . . . next year I suspect we'll be selling it and getting her another Legacy or an Outback . . . the only thing she doesn't like is the gas mileage which I told her seems may have been addressed with the CVT transmission.


Wife has a 2003 as well, Outback... Same thing , loves the car but the mileage seems to be around 23-26mpg,,, my Dodge diesel cummins 1 ton gets all around 20 and 22 mpg on the open road... He have the 6 cyl in the subaru,,,think it would do better then that for fuel mileage... Put in my zip code for the diesel Subaru,,, looking at 44 thousand base price, yikes!  Almost a new dodge diesel truck price...


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## webbie (Mar 26, 2013)

Yeah, at those prices a Jetta or a Ford Focus or their new hybrid starts looking good.....

Subies are great...if you don't have to do a lot of road miles. We just put 3,000 more on the Passat...I averaged 32 MPG on the way to Florida with a packed car. Subie stayed in the garage.

Realistically, even though it snows a lot around here....I work at home, so there is nowhere I really need to go for those 4 days a year when the snow is really bad. So although I loved my Forester, I probably won't be buying another unless the MPG is up there and the price is right.


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## Adios Pantalones (Mar 26, 2013)

We love Subarus. It's the perfect compromise in terms of MPG, AWD, performance, and cargo space (I need this to haul stuff for pottery shows- I play Tetris when packing). Plus, they have been extremely reliable for us. I commute a few days a week now however, and the extra MPG would be welcomed.


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## Jack Fate (Mar 26, 2013)

I've been waiting for the diesel for years now .

2 problems with diesels in the states

newer epa regulations on cars are tough to meet & make for a complacaited system ( check out what VW is going through )

our fuel, extreme low sulfur affords very little lubrication for the fuel pump system (if I remember correctly about 40,000 lbs psi)


Just about bought a golf tdi last year until a did a search

this is just a after 2008 for cars sold in the states

I love diesels & subies


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 26, 2013)

I have a 2013 Outback (Will be our car for the next 10-12 years) and have averaged 27 mpg since purchasing 14500 miles back. (We have the 2.5L 6 spd manual) AWD, roomy, and 27mpg for an AWD was the choice for me. (Prior vehicle was a 2002 Forester)


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

charly said:


> Wife has a 2003 as well, Outback... Same thing , loves the car but the mileage seems to be around 23-26mpg,,, my Dodge diesel cummins 1 ton gets all around 20 and 22 mpg on the open road... He have the 6 cyl in the subaru,,,think it would do better then that for fuel mileage... Put in my zip code for the diesel Subaru,,, looking at 44 thousand base price, yikes! Almost a new dodge diesel truck price...


 OUCH! $$$


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

webbie said:


> Yeah, at those prices a Jetta or a Ford Focus or their new hybrid starts looking good.....
> 
> Subies are great...if you don't have to do a lot of road miles. We just put 3,000 more on the Passat...I averaged 32 MPG on the way to Florida with a packed car. Subie stayed in the garage.
> 
> Realistically, even though it snows a lot around here....I work at home, so there is nowhere I really need to go for those 4 days a year when the snow is really bad. So although I loved my Forester, I probably won't be buying another unless the MPG is up there and the price is right.


 Craig: the 2014 models have significantly improved gas mileage. The manual model finally has a 6 speed (used to be 5) and the automatic is now a CVT tranny. The 2014 Foresters with CVT (can also get paddle shifters) are rated to get 32MPG highway (US gallons).


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## charly (Mar 26, 2013)

All my diesel stuff gets fuel additive every tank full for a lubricity for the pump... Amsoil , I did hear that there were some issues with the new VW's but have forgotten what was the issue... Was it camshaft wear issues in the new diesels? The Subaru's definitely give one a comfortable feeling when driving through some nasty snow conditions,, the wife likes that... We bought our 03 with 85,000 miles... Has been a pretty trouble free car... Changed that over to Amsoil,,, found out the motor was pretty dirty inside...what ever oil they ran before,,, the amsoil was getting dirty fast for the first few oil changes... The inside of the oil filler cap was a dead give away as to infrequent oil changes or cheap oil... Sludge build up... It's all good now..with 120,000 plus.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

daveswoodhauler said:


> I have a 2013 Outback (Will be our car for the next 10-12 years) and have averaged 27 mpg since purchasing 14500 miles back. (We have the 2.5L 6 spd manual) AWD, roomy, and 27mpg for an AWD was the choice for me. (Prior vehicle was a 2002 Forester)


 Are you liking it Dave? So you have the manual? We ended up getting a 2010 forester ( and I drive a 2005 impreza to/from work) but plan on getting a 2015 Outback (once the forester is paid off).

The reality of it is that lots of us want a car that will get better gas mileage. However for me it's not THAT big of a deal but it would be welcomed. I love the safety of them in the winter (snows 5 months a year where I live), the impact ratings are the best and the reliability is nearly unparalleled princepoint wise.

With my forester I have gotten 7.6L/100 KMs on a 800 KM road trip. No speeding, no crazy driving. That is 31 MPG US. Sure I would like to get 5.5L/100 Kms. However: I drive about 22 000 KMs a year. Increasing my gas mileage from 7.6 to 5.5 (2.1 diff X 220 ratio X $1.40/L) = $650 in gas savings per year or about $54 a month. It's not that big of a deal...hence why the main factor when buying a car for me is not mileage. Safety is #1. PS. I certainly could not afford gas for a great big pickup truck!


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

My wife loves Subaru for the fact of driving in the snow. We have NOkian Hakka 5s on both my cars and they turn a Subaru into a snowmobile!

Andrew


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## Paulywalnut (Mar 26, 2013)

I guess diesel is better for power but being stuck in back of one on the highway is terrible.


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## firefighterjake (Mar 26, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> My wife loves Subaru for the fact of driving in the snow. We have NOkian Hakka 5s on both my cars and they turn a Subaru into a snowmobile!
> 
> Andrew


 
HehHeh . . . same here . . . my wife works per diem as a nurse so she is often going into work or coming home in the evening or late at night . . . there have been many a night when she has made it home and she gives me a count on the number of vehicles spotted off in the ditch. She says her Subbie is like a tank on wheels . . . her words. I think on her next car I will actually get some dedicated and studded snow tires for even better traction as I am just running all seasons right now.

And for my next car . . . kinda debating about whether to go with the BRZ or WRX for my mid-life crisis car!


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## MishMouse (Mar 26, 2013)

My next winter transportation will most likely be a Subaru.  My 1998 RAV4 gets around 25-28mpg, but with 145K on it and 15 years of road salt it is starting to show some wear. My summer transportation is a Pontiac Vibe which gets close to 35mpg on highway.  The bad thing about the Pontiac it does not do well in the winter even with new tires.  Since Winter here goes from Nov-May, and the dirt roads I need to drive on are poorly taken care of, I need a AWD that gets top mpg.


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 26, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Are you liking it Dave? So you have the manual?


 
So far so good. I did test drive the CVT, and I just didn't like the feel for the CVT....they are actually reported to get better gas mileage than the 6 spd manual.

Although I do like the 6 speed, the gearing is a little more to get used to if you are coming from a a 5 speed....i.e on the highway sometimes you need to switch between 5th and 6th depending on passing/going uphill etc....I think if it were just a 5 speed it would be more towards my liking. I wanted to get the 3.5 litre, but since I average 16-18,000 miles a year it would have made a big impact on the wallet. If you need to pull/tow and like to jack rabbin at stop lights I would go for the larger engine...if you are not s peed demon and are concerned with mpg, the 2.5 is more than adequate.


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## Jack Fate (Mar 26, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> HehHeh . . . same here . . . my wife works per diem as a nurse so she is often going into work or coming home in the evening or late at night . . . there have been many a night when she has made it home and she gives me a count on the number of vehicles spotted off in the ditch. She says her Subbie is like a tank on wheels . . . her words. I think on her next car I will actually get some dedicated and studded snow tires for even better traction as I am just running all seasons right now.
> 
> And for my next car . . . kinda debating about whether to go with the BRZ or WRX for my mid-life crisis car!


 

If  we are dreaming here make mine the sti

              I mean really it all costs the same

gotta be blue .love that color & I don't even like blue


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## Jack Fate (Mar 26, 2013)

charly said:


> All my diesel stuff gets fuel additive every tank full for a lubricity for the pump... Amsoil , I did hear that there were some issues with the new VW's but have forgotten what was the issue... Was it camshaft wear issues in the new diesels? The Subaru's definitely give one a comfortable feeling when driving through some nasty snow conditions,, the wife likes that... We bought our 03 with 85,000 miles... Has been a pretty trouble free car... Changed that over to Amsoil,,, found out the motor was pretty dirty inside...what ever oil they ran before,,, the amsoil was getting dirty fast for the first few oil changes... The inside of the oil filler cap was a dead give away as to infrequent oil changes or cheap oil... Sludge build up... It's all good now..with 120,000 plus.


 


had a lot more on the new diesels written here but erased it .I joined a diesel VW forum group last year.Followed it for months ,lot of neat people there.I learned alot about problems they were having ,REAL scary

also seems VW diesel people & subie people are alot alike


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> HehHeh . . . same here . . . my wife works per diem as a nurse so she is often going into work or coming home in the evening or late at night . . . there have been many a night when she has made it home and she gives me a count on the number of vehicles spotted off in the ditch. She says her Subbie is like a tank on wheels . . . her words. I think on her next car I will actually get some dedicated and studded snow tires for even better traction as I am just running all seasons right now.
> 
> My opinion: If you get winter tires, get the best ones you can afford. The most expensive winter tire may cost $50-$100 more per tire than a cheap one. Yet, the quality is 10 times better. And over 4-5-6 winters, I don't find it makes a big difference on the wallet.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

Jack Fate said:


> also seems VW diesel people & subie people are alot alike



They are loyal customers, almost cult-like! We are today what the Volvo fans were in the 1980s.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

Jack Fate said:


> If we are dreaming here make mine the sti
> 
> I mean really it all costs the same
> 
> gotta be blue .love that color & I don't even like blue


 Friend of mine has a charcoal grey one. What a machine. Considering in Canada it is 9K more, he pays $750 a month  for it. Ahhhh...the single-nokids-nohouse lifestyle. lol


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## jharkin (Mar 26, 2013)

I thought I read in the reviews that in the CVT equipped subies the symetrical AWD is ditched for a front biased system which helps them hit those better MPG figures....


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## Jack Fate (Mar 26, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I thought I read in the reviews that in the CVT equipped subies the symetrical AWD is ditched for a front biased system which helps them hit those better MPG figures....


 


I think its all automatic subies are like 80/20

after testing a 2004 forrester XT with auto & 5 speed ,told the wife no auto, to me there seems to be a lot of difference .

had a stick till last year. Wife says no more sticks ,So no WRX for me

My family has had subies since 73,Got Married in that one


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

Jack Fate said:


> I think its all automatic subies are like 80/20
> 
> after testing a 2004 forrester XT with auto & 5 speed ,told the wife no auto, to me there seems to be a lot of difference .
> 
> ...


 
Jack: Glad to see you're a diehard. I have driven an 87 GL, 95 loyale, 95 Legacy sedan, 1998 legacy sedan, 2005 IMpreza and 2010 Forester.

FWIW, the 2002-2007 Imprezas had a 4 speed automatic transmission option. I have drive a few and man oh man are they fun. They go like snot!


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I thought I read in the reviews that in the CVT equipped subies the symetrical AWD is ditched for a front biased system which helps them hit those better MPG figures....


I have read the same. I am not sure why but there are 3 types of AWD systems out there:

2.5i, Premium, with Manual 6 speed transmission
*Continuous All Wheel Drive system with VDC and Hill Holder *symmetrical viscous coupling 50/50 front/back power split. 

2.5i, Premium, Limited with Automatic CVT transmission
*Active All Wheel Drive system with VDC and Hill Holder. *Electronically controlled, constantly varying front/back power split 80/20 front/back power split.

3.6R, automatic 5 speed transmission
*VTD (Variable Torque Distribution) All Wheel Drive system with VDC and Hill Holder *VTD traction control system has 45/55 performance oriented, front/rear power split with Limited Slip rear axle.

All I know is that my 2005 impreza can handle like the best rally car out there. I feel very safe in the snow and I love going fast (on closed roads) and can drift nicely around corners....no VDC, anti-slip, none of that.

Andrew


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## firefighterjake (Mar 26, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Friend of mine has a charcoal grey one. What a machine. Considering in Canada it is 9K more, he pays $750 a month for it. Ahhhh...the single-nokids-nohouse lifestyle. lol


 
Yikes! That's about $150 more than my mortgage payment . . . hence the "single, no kids, no house" life style I imagine.


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## firefighterjake (Mar 26, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Jack: Glad to see you're a diehard. I have driven an 87 GL, 95 loyale, 95 Legacy sedan, 1998 legacy sedan, 2005 IMpreza and 2010 Forester.
> 
> FWIW, the 2002-2007 Imprezas had a 4 speed automatic transmission option. I have drive a few and man oh man are they fun. They go like snot!


 
1987 GL . . . was that the car that had the selectable 4WD . . . the brown one looked like a mis-shapened, half melted chocolate bar and while good on gas it had no get up and go on hills? I think I drove one way back when after college until I traded with my father . . . he got the GL and I got his V-8 Chevy Malibu which was a former Maine State Trooper's cruiser.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> Yikes! That's about $150 more than my mortgage payment . . . hence the "single, no kids, no house" life style I imagine.


 LOL Yes. And the fact that we live in Canada and everything is more expensive here. Top knotch outback in Canada is 9K more than in the US....

BUt it makes sense if you do the math: an STI is about 45K. pay it off in 5 years and you have to pay $9000/year on the car. $750 a month is $9000 a year.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 26, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> 1987 GL . . . was that the car that had the selectable 4WD . . . the brown one looked like a mis-shapened, half melted chocolate bar and while good on gas it had no get up and go on hills? I think I drove one way back when after college until I traded with my father . . . he got the GL and I got his V-8 Chevy Malibu which was a former Maine State Trooper's cruiser.


 
That is the one indeed. It has a 4WD hi/low stickshift. Ugliest thing on the road.  lol. Beside the Subaru Brat (looked like a small El-Camino and had legal bucket seats in the box facing the rear).


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## Floydian (Mar 28, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Ugliest thing on the road. lol. Beside the Subaru Brat (looked like a small El-Camino and had legal bucket seats in the box facing the rear).


 
Not fair, Swedishchef! Lots of ugly cars then and now but the Brat, come on man! El Camino and El Ranchero only wish they were as cool as El Brat!

My folks are all about the Subarus. They are on number 11, I believe. Lets see....

1.78 dl wagon 4x4
2.85 gl wagon 4x4
3.84 gl turbo coupe 4x4 (my first car in '92)
4.another 84 gl turbo coupe 4x4
5.84 gl sedan 4x4(Goldie)
6.87 gl wagon 4x4 (known as Blubaru)
7.88 2 dr liftback 4x4( with a big ugly stain on the headliner above the driver seat from the previous owner's head)
8.91 dl wagon 2wd(why bother?)
9.92 legacy wagon AWD
10.94 legacy wagon AWD
11.08 legacy outback wagon

All of these were bought used except the '85 wagon and the '08 wagon that my mom drives now.

Lots of great Subaru memories for me,

Noah


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## jharkin (Mar 28, 2013)

The ugliest Subie would still be a beauty queen next to a Pontiac Aztec 

This coming from a honda guy....


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## Ashful (Mar 28, 2013)

Subaru must be doing something right... it's rare to see such a loyal following for a product on the low end of the price spectrum. It reminds me in many ways of the loyal following VW had in the 1960/70's.


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## jharkin (Mar 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> it's rare to see such a loyal following for a product on the low end of the price spectrum.
> 
> If you like driving in snow, Audi Quattro and Mercedes 4-ETS are _very _hard to beat.


 

Obviously you have never been to a car show  ...

  Everyone's definition of "low end" is relative.   Audis and Merc's are out of reach for most of us in the bottom 90%. Or put another way the bottom 99% worldwide.


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## Ashful (Mar 28, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Obviously you have never been to a car show  ...


 
What do you mean? Put otherwise, what other companies selling cars in that price range enjoy the same sort of loyalty as Subaru? Not many.

Noted on the Merc's, which is why I had removed that comment (but you were too quick!).


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## jharkin (Mar 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> What do you mean? Put otherwise, what other companies selling cars in that price range enjoy the same sort of loyalty as Subaru? Not many.


 
This is almost to funny.  Just turn on your TV during NASCAR season.  Look at the legions of fans for Chevy and Ford.  Or look at the sales figures and repeat buyer statistics for Toyota, Honda and Nissan.  the crazy fast growth of Hyundai and Kia.

and on and on.

Certainly Mercedes makes a nice car but lets not have any delusions,  they are toys for the top 5-10%. Sure here in the northeast we see a lot of them on the road, but there are a lot more top 10%ers per capita up here.  Go to Ohio or Georgia and you will see a much different mix on the road.



I'll leave it at that.... My apologies Swedish for taking us off track.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

Floydian said:


> Not fair, Swedishchef! Lots of ugly cars then and now but the Brat, come on man! El Camino and El Ranchero only wish they were as cool as El Brat!
> 
> My folks are all about the Subarus. They are on number 11, I believe. Lets see....
> 
> ...


LOL. El Brat!

Woa! That is quite the list of SUbarus! LOL. I can picture the 1984 one in my mind...that color was very popular back then. Man oh man they were not pretty but they got the job done! There is a very particular feeling on a Subaru shifter. I think it is because of the AWD...perhaps I am wrong.

What do you drive??

Andrew


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

jharkin said:


> The ugliest Subie would still be a beauty queen next to a Pontiac Aztec
> 
> This coming from a honda guy....


 A friend of mine is the most knowledgeable person in the car industry I know. At the age of 23 he was handpicked to OPEN a GM car dealership that had 55 employees....He knows his chit. The thing he said about the Aztec: "it was the ugliest but most practical car out there. Every inch of design was based on usefullness and not beauty". He had a demo and loved it. He said it was super comfortable. His model had the "tent/mattress" option!

Andrew


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> Subaru must be doing something right... it's rare to see such a loyal following for a product on the low end of the price spectrum. It reminds me in many ways of the loyal following VW had in the 1960/70's.


 I totally understand where you're coming from. The problem is that in Canada, they aren't cheap. The base model impreza (that still has A/C, power everything, etc) is $21500+ tax. That means it is a $25000 car. In my books, that's not cheap. Honda has the Fit which is $16000+tax, the Yaris is $16000+tax, etc etc.. So essentially they are 5K above everyone else.

However in the US, they are cheaper indeed. What they are doing to keep clientele is is not making too many models and perfecting the ones they have. They don't make many cars (in Canada they sell about 25000 a year) and flood the market with them. The forester is based on the impreza platform (as is the crosstrek) and the outback is based on the legacy.

Subaru owners are cult-like. LOL. Like the Volvos from the 1980s. or like you said, the VW from the 60s-70s.

And I won't forget the news headline: in 2011 Subaru USA sold more cars than VW USA.   Due to the fact that the market is not flooded with them, they keep their value and have won numerous awards for highest residual value. http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/111...rall-predicted-resale-value-in-three-segments


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

Oooo.. I thought it would do better as a hybrid..oh well. From earlier today:


"The hybrid version pairs a 2.0-liter four-cylinder gasoline engine and a small electric motor to make the same amount of horsepower and pound-feet of torque as the gas-only model: 148 and 145, respectively.
The hybrid model is expected to get 28 mpg in the city and 34 mpg on the highway. This isn’t a huge jump from the gas model’s 25/33 mpg rating; the hybrid’s 300-pound weight gain probably doesn’t help.
The electric motor is powered by a 13.5 kilowatt nickel-metal hydride battery that sits under the rear cargo area. Subaru says the compact battery means hybrid buyers give up only 1.7 cubic feet of cargo room in the trunk.

The hybrid culls additional efficiency from regenerative brakes and an engine start/stop function.

The hybrid shares its all-wheel-drive system and continuously variable transmission with the gas model, as well. Features such as a backup camera, heated front seats and mirrors, and a color, multi-function display screen are all standard on the Crosstrek Hybrid. Subaru said the hybrid retains the gas model’s 8.7 inches of ground clearance"

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/...ek-hybrid-at-the-2013-new-york-auto-show.html


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 28, 2013)

Although I like the idea of a hybrid, the mpg increases are minimal at best...will be interesting to see the cost difference between the hybrid/non nybrid model.


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## loadstarken (Mar 28, 2013)

I love Subarus and I have even put one of their engines in my VW Vanagon!

There is a guy that imports the Subaru diesel engines and they have been going into a bunch of Vanagons lately.


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## Ashful (Mar 28, 2013)

I have a Subaru engine on my leaf blower... does that count? 

Volvo is still a cult! My wife drives a 2.5L T5 R-design now... runs like a ***** date.


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## Floydian (Mar 28, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> What do you drive??


 
We have a '99 Jeep Cherokee sport 4x4 for when things get serious.

We also have an '89 Accord LXi that we bought from the original owner with 64k miles on it! That was 5 years ago, now the car has 106k. I expect this car to go for a looooong time. I believe this was Hondas first fuel injected car! And yeah, it has the pop up lights!!

And an '08 Kubota L4240 HST to maintain the 1.0 mi driveway, gather firewood and help with various farming endeavors. I guess this one doesn't count but it is the most fun!

Hopefully we'll have a Subaru in the mix in the next couple of years. Pretty ideal car here in the Blue Ridge mountains with all the hills and twists and turns. 

Noah


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

Joful said:


> I have a Subaru engine on my leaf blower... does that count?
> 
> Volvo is still a cult!  My wife drives a 2.5T R-design now... runs like a ***** date.


 lol...the leaf blower will count I guess. ariens started putting small Subaru engines on their equipment...

I don't find the reliability of their vehicles is what it used to be. My dad had a 240, then a 740, then 850, then S70, then XC70 (what a miserable car this was...over $8000 in repairs off warranty in 7 years) and now he has an s60 t5. But do not forget those vehicles start at 35000$ in Canada. Considering the average salary is 44000 around here, not many people drive them. They are a nice car though but you don't see them in the world rally championships.  Lol


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## jharkin (Mar 28, 2013)

There was an interesting article in the April Car and Driver about the MPG testing rules and why a lot of hybrids show much bigger difference (lower) in real world testing than the gas only counterparts. 

Makes me feel a bit less guilty for not running out to buy hybrid


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

Floydian said:


> We have a '99 Jeep Cherokee sport 4x4 for when things get serious.
> 
> We also have an '89 Accord LXi that we bought from the original owner with 64k miles on it! That was 5 years ago, now the car has 106k. I expect this car to go for a looooong time. I believe this was Hondas first fuel injected car! And yeah, it has the pop up lights!!
> 
> ...


You seem to have the best vehicle : the tractor! Lol.  Those Hondas do last indeed. I remember them!  I am in a bind right now about my vehicle situation. I want an outback. My forester has 12000 left owing but I could sell it for about 22000. My plan was to pay off the forester, sell my 2005 impreza and buy a new outback....but I am some tempted to sell the forester, keep the impreza another 5 years (I only use it to drive to and from work) and get an outback.....ack, if only money was no issue!,!,


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

jharkin said:


> There was an interesting article in the April Car and Driver about the MPG testing rules and why a lot of hybrids show much bigger difference (lower) in real world testing than the gas only counterparts.
> 
> Makes me feel a bit less guilty for not running out to buy hybrid


What did the article say?


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## jharkin (Mar 28, 2013)

Floydian said:


> We also have an '89 Accord LXi that we bought from the original owner with 64k miles on it! That was 5 years ago, now the car has 106k. I expect this car to go for a looooong time. I believe this was Hondas first fuel injected car! And yeah, it has the pop up lights!!


 
I had an '87 Accord LXi hatch. Loved that car, and it also had the popup lights.  The PGM-FI was new in '86.  Thats amazingly low miles on a Honda.... mine had over 200k on it when I was driving it in the late 90s. It died of a systemic electrical failure after I sold it off.  The 110hp and easy starting of FI where huge upgrades over my '82 Accord (72hp).


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## jharkin (Mar 28, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> What did the article say?


 
I was looking for a link to it on their site, no luck.  Basically there are 3 or 4 different methods that the OEMs can use and surprisingly only one of them requires the actual test!  Basically if they have an all gas car and make a hybrid variant, they are allowed to apply a mathematical adjustment to "predict" the hybrid gas mileage. And of course the adjustment is theoretical and wildly optimistic.

There where examples where the published figures might be 20-30% better than the gas model but in a real world test the gain might be only 5%.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I was looking for a link to it on their site, no luck.  Basically there are 3 or 4 different methods that the OEMs can use and surprisingly only one of them requires the actual test!  Basically if they have an all gas car and make a hybrid variant, they are allowed to apply a mathematical adjustment to "predict" the hybrid gas mileage. And of course the adjustment is theoretical and wildly optimistic.
> 
> There where examples where the published figures might be 20-30% better than the gas model but in a real world test the gain might be only 5%.


 makes sense when looking at the above information I pasted regarding the cross trek hybrid.... Ah. What a scam those tests are! Sigh.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

Two good links for the hybrid:


http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130328/NEWYORK/130329856

Too bad the gas mileage isn't that much better. But hey, it's better than nothing!

Andrew


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## Ashful (Mar 28, 2013)

My wife had an Audi A3 2.0T with manual transmission. The on-board computer always read 29-30 mpg, when she was driving it. Occasionally, I'd get the chance to drive it myself, and usually returned it to her with the on-board computer reading roughly 19 mpg. We sold it to one of my co-workers, and he reports it never showing lower than 32 mpg, with him driving.

So... what's "real world"? 

... and you are correct, Volvo durability is not what it used to be, but their driving performance has gone way up! I don't think we'll be buying another, but that is more about the local dealer, than the car itself.


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## begreen (Mar 28, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I have read the same. I am not sure why but there are 3 types of AWD systems out there:
> 
> 2.5i, Premium, with Manual 6 speed transmission
> *Continuous All Wheel Drive system with VDC and Hill Holder *symmetrical viscous coupling 50/50 front/back power split.
> ...


 

They say the new 2013 Imprezza is a very fun car to drive. I need to try one out.

BTW, I see the new CrossTrek hybrid is only going to get 1 mpg better hwy mileage than the non-hybrid. And the reason for wanting the extra weight and cost is what Mr. Subaru?


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## begreen (Mar 28, 2013)

Next door neighbor's 2006 Civic looks like new and they say it runs great. 240K and going strong. I drove a new Civic Hybrid last week and I have to say I really liked it.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 28, 2013)

240K on a 2006 car?! Sweet chicken that is a lot of driving. And when looking at the prince point, the Civic is the most sold car in Canada.

Where I live, I want AWD. Driving in 15 snowstorms a year can be frustrating with a 2WD vehicle. AWD gives me the comfort I want knowing I won't get stuck, which is one of the reasons I only drive SUbarus.


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## begreen (Mar 28, 2013)

I loved taking our Legacy out into the snow. Problem is we see this about every 3d year. Last year I bought my first snow shovel since moving out here 39 yrs ago.


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## Swedishchef (Mar 29, 2013)

Lol...you Washington folk..you're like Vancouverites


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## jharkin (Mar 29, 2013)

I remember when I bought my RSX my buddy got a WRX. After a few years of driving each we both agreed the worlds best cheap fast car would have

Subaru awd
Honda steering
Honda 6MT gearbox
Subaru boxer low center of gravity
Subaru turbo torque
Honda VTEC rev happiness and top end HP


Sadly nobody makes such a car. I bet the BRZ is a lot of fun though.


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## jharkin (Mar 29, 2013)

Joful said:


> Noted on the Merc's, which is why I had removed that comment (but you were too quick!).


 
Ha  yes sorry if Isounded snippy.


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## Adios Pantalones (Mar 29, 2013)

I had a Baja the first year they came out- you remember them- the latest Brat/El Camino. I beat the crap out of that thing, and still got 170 k miles before I traded it in. It was still fine, but needed some suspension work after all the years of me using it to pull down leaning trees, hauling rounds out of the woods, and treating it like the truck it wasn't.


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## tbuff (Apr 4, 2013)

I love my Subaru... Changed the oil today, WHAT A NIGHTMARE! I had less trouble me replacing the rear wheel bearings!


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## MishMouse (Apr 5, 2013)

This week at least for 3 days, I was able to drive the Pontiac Vibe (35mpg).  Today I needed the RAV4, we are supposed to get around 3 inches of heavy wet sloppy snow. The Vibe gets excellent mpg, but add some snow or ice and watch out, even with new tires it is hard to drive on slippery roads.  Me and my wife spent an hour trying to get it out of a snow drift that the RAV didn't even notice.  When the RAV kicks the bucket (1998 with 148K), a subaru will be replacing it, hoepfully something that gets 30+ mpg.


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## midwestcoast (Apr 6, 2013)

I guess we now know why they haven't come out with a hybrid before. Sad mpgs 
Too bad. I'd be interested if it was mid 40's mpg.


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## Swedishchef (Apr 7, 2013)

tbuff said:


> I love my Subaru... Changed the oil today, WHAT A NIGHTMARE! I had less trouble me replacing the rear wheel bearings!


What did you find hard about it?


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## Swedishchef (Apr 7, 2013)

Adios Pantalones said:


> I had a Baja the first year they came out- you remember them- the latest Brat/El Camino. I beat the crap out of that thing, and still got 170 k miles before I traded it in. It was still fine, but needed some suspension work after all the years of me using it to pull down leaning trees, hauling rounds out of the woods, and treating it like the truck it wasn't.


Too bad they only made them for 2 years. They are hard to find now...just about as rare as a Subaru SVX...if you don't know what those are! Look them up. They were quite advanced for their day...

Andrew


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## Swedishchef (Apr 7, 2013)

midwestcoast said:


> I guess we now know why they haven't come out with a hybrid before. Sad mpgs
> Too bad. I'd be interested if it was mid 40's mpg.


Sad indeed...but as mentioned earlier in the thread, it seems lots of companies are fudging their stats relating to fuel economy of their hybrids (according to some...)

Andrew


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## jharkin (Apr 7, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> Sad indeed...but as mentioned earlier in the thread, it seems lots of companies are fudging their stats relating to fuel economy of their hybrids (according to some...)
> 
> Andrew


 
 No matter what they do a Subaru hybrid will never have the mileage of a Prius. The AWD system adds a significant amount of drive train drag and extra weight, just getting it into the 30s makes it one of the most efficient full time awd vehicles out there I suspect.


In making this statement I don't count cars like the CRV and RAV4, as those are part time 4wd that only get 30+ mpg when driving in 2wd mode.


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## tbuff (Apr 7, 2013)

I've been changing the oil in my other vehicles from day one, but always just bought the Subaru in for service because it difficult for me to fit under it without jacking it up. So at autozone to get oil change stuff for my Expedition, I figured I'd change the Subaru's also. First, I didn't have the correct size oil wench that would fit into the tight quarters of the filter, then I ended up butchering it up until I got it loose. Literally 1.5 hours to change the oil... Takes me 38 minutes to change front And back brake pads.... Lol.. It was embarrassing, cause I usually have my wife time me to show how easy most of this stuff is and show why it's sometimes better to do the work yourself and save some money. When I finished, my wife goes " an hour and a half... I've never seen an oil change take that long" so I made up an excuse and told her the capacitance valve was misaligned and needed to be adjusted... I think she bought it, and my manhood is still intact!


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## begreen (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm watching the next generation Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. It won't be here for another year but is getting good marks for fuel efficiency in Japan. It's 4wd, with a hybrid twist. Front wheel drive is gas or elect, with the rear wheel drive electric. It is kind of like a Chevy Volt, but AWD and with the battery hidden under the floors. There's no battery tbone in the middle of the interior and no battery hump in the back.


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## Ashful (Apr 8, 2013)

I work closely with a guy who's the polar opposite of me, a left-wing bleeding heart liberal who spends his weekends hugging trees, and drives a Prius. We poke at each other all week long, but never seriously, and are actually great friends. I tease him that my lawn mower uses 3x the gas his car does per year, and I'm almost sure that's true. Then I sit back and think... my lawn mower uses almost as much gas as my PICKUP TRUCK, during mowing season!

I can consider a million reasons why a battery-powered car (Chevy Volt) is not so practical for many, but it seems I can come up with fewer reasons why a battery-powered riding mower is not practical. It only runs maybe 2 - 3 hours at a time, which should be easily achievable with a modestly-sized storage bank. Engine maintenance would be almost eliminated (did I mention I have to re-adjust my valve lash this week)? The noise complaints from neighbors would be greatly reduced (I always feel bad starting mine early in the morning, when I know my late-nighter neighbors are still in bed). Yet... I don't recall seeing many battery-powered or hybrid mowers on the market.

For reference... I'm not talking about push mowers, but something like a 25 hp Zero turn with a 50" - 70" deck.  Mine eats gas at a rate of 2 gallons per hour when the grass is growing well in spring, and maybe 1.5 gallons per hour later in the summer, when the grass is less thick.  It has no emissions equipment.


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## jharkin (Apr 8, 2013)

How big is your lawn??? That's sounds like landscape contractor size gear 


Meaning... You might be an outlier case, and electrifying push mowers and small riding mowers for the majority would be better bang for the buck.


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## Ashful (Apr 8, 2013)

My lawn is just under 4 acres, so not exactly huge, but the big gear helps get it done without blowing an entire Saturday on mowing. I can mow in 2.5 hours, and have all trim work, etc., done in under 3 hours.

I think it would be hard to justify the cost of a hybrid or all-electric push or small riding mower, and besides... where's the benefit?  They don't use much gas to begin with.  I suspect a hybrid or battery powered mower is going to have a certain base price, regardless of size, commensurate with more expensive equipment.

Sorry to hijack the Subaru thread... but I guess it had already run its course.


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## MishMouse (Apr 8, 2013)

I have seen electric push mowers before but they were corded.


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## begreen (Apr 8, 2013)

A 4 acre lawn is not big? That is a huge manor lawn. It must take forever to mow. I wouldn't think of electric for that size lawn unless it is with the hybrid Raven which so far is not getting rave reviews as a mower. For a cleaner burn, convert your mower to propane.

Sorry for the hijack. This is better discussed in the gear or DIY forums.


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## jharkin (Apr 8, 2013)

When I was a kid we had 2.5 acres of lot with about 1.5 of grass.... It was one of the biggest in town, a rich Connecticut town. As an adult I have 1/2 and that is pretty big for the Boston burbs. Statistically the average American household has only 1/3 acre! Joful you just might not realize that your house and lawn are larger than what 90% of Americans have. Hence my thinking electrifying such large equipment might not make a lot of difference in the big picture.

Maybe if you can get lawn services that service condo developments to buy such hybrid mowers it might be worth the development cost. Maybe...


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## Ashful (Apr 8, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Statistically the average American household has only 1/3 acre!


 
Statistics are fun, in that you can twist them to prove almost any point.  Perhaps most Ameri*cans* are living on 1/3 acre, due to the high population densities on both crowded coasts, but then again... most of Ameri*ca* (averaged by land mass) is living on MUCH larger lots.  Tell a guy from Oklahoma or Arkansas that 4 acres is a "big" lawn.  

The fact that there are quite a few companies out there competing in the 50" - 72" mower space, tells me my situation is not very unique, and there likely is a good market for such a mower.  Your suggested 90% still leaves 30 million Americans on lots larger than mine!


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## scooby074 (Apr 8, 2013)

Long time subaru owner here (Thats where my nick "Scooby" comes from).

Loyale, Chaser, Legacy.. Yep Ive had a few. And now I got 3 friends into the brand (2 Imprezas and a Legacy) although Im currently driving a Ford (garbage) and a Toyota (excellent).

In my opinion Subie is really dropping the ball here. They need to bring over the diesels and skip this hybrid stuff. Ive had great conversations with various Subaru manufacturer reps and they said the diesels "were going to happen soon". This has been the general consensus for the last 5 years!! How soon is soon???

Anyways, if they did bring it over in either the Legacy or the Forrester in diesel, they'd sell every one, assuming they didn't only offer the diesel as an option on a full load $$$, like Jeep is doing on the Cherokee. That's a sure way to NOT get broad acceptance of diesels. I know Id strongly consider either the Legacy or Forrester IF they offered diesel, with good mileage and on something other that a top of the range model.

To illustrate just how much Subie has dropped the ball and let the market catch them and move buy, one of their direct competitors in the Mazda6 is launching a diesel this year. Oh and dont get me started on the BRZ and its lack of AWD!!


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## jharkin (Apr 8, 2013)

Joful said:


> ... most of Ameri*ca* (averaged by land mass) is living on MUCH larger lots. Tell a guy from Oklahoma or Arkansas that 4 acres is a "big" lawn.


 
Much of that land area is farmland, not lawns.

Go look it up in the census bureau data. Average lot size nationwide is 1/3 actually 1/4 acre in most recent data, and for new construction the average lot sizes are in fact largest in the dense Northeast corridor because of more affluent buyers.

http://www.census.gov/const/C25Ann/malotsizesold.pdf
http://www.census.gov/housing/ahs/files/ahs11/National2011.xls

- as I read the data tables in the second sheet, single family homes on 5 acres or more are only 7% of all households. So I think its fair to say the vast majority of people in this country would consider that big.


I know I'm risking a trip to the can with this (sincere apologies to swedishchef for taking us so far off track). This is *absolutely not* meant as a criticism, just to point out that we are often predisposed to think our own situation is typical or average when its actually far from it (same psychological reason that everyone from the local burger flipper to Bill Gates will claim to be "middle class" when surveyed). For example I look around my town and I see that over half the homes (mine included!) are over 150 years old, 2 story, wood sided, with a full basement and heated with gas or oil fired hot water radiators. From that limited sample I might think this is a typical US house - but nationwide that probably describes something like 3% of all houses (with the vast majority probably being vinyl sided ranches on a crawlspace with gas forced air heat built after 1960).


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## firefighterjake (Apr 9, 2013)

So . . . to get this thread back on track . . . my wife loves her Subaru. We're thinking about going with an Outback with the CVT either this December or next . . . maybe used, maybe new.

Me . . . I'm still holding out hope that the next generation of the BRZ (love that styling -- reminds me a bit of Nissan's super car) will either be AWD . . . or have a turbo . . . or have both.


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## jharkin (Apr 9, 2013)

I am glad the BRZ is RWD. Its meant to be an inexpensive traditional sports car. Awd would just add weight and complexity and hurt the handling. The turbo wouldn't hurt tho.

When the roadster version comes out this will be serious competition to the Miata and the dearly departed S2000.


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## scooby074 (Apr 9, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I am glad the BRZ is RWD. Its meant to be an inexpensive traditional sports car. Awd would just add weight and complexity and hurt the handling. The turbo wouldn't hurt tho.
> 
> When the roadster version comes out this will be serious competition to the Miata and the dearly departed S2000.


 
What should have happened with the BRZ IMHO was the Subie version should have been AWD, and turboed. Both turbo and especially AWD are Subie hallmarks. Having it 2wd goes against the brand.

The Toyota version should be the 2wd version. It fits with the brand, in the history of the Celica. And it should have had a Toyota motor.

Selling 2, mostly identical cars like this doesn't make much sense. Plus there was something else I read where there are some stupid import restrictions put on Subaru by the contract with Toyota, that restricts Subaru from selling more cars then Toyota. Im likely wrong on the exact numbers but it was something like for every 3 Toyota (Scion) FR-S Toyota imports, Subaru can import 1. This is going to drive customers to the Toyota dealership because Subie doesn't have or cant get what they want. Pretty dumb move on Subaru's part.


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## Swedishchef (Apr 9, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> So . . . to get this thread back on track . . . my wife loves her Subaru. We're thinking about going with an Outback with the CVT either this December or next . . . maybe used, maybe new.
> 
> Me . . . I'm still holding out hope that the next generation of the BRZ (love that styling -- reminds me a bit of Nissan's super car) will either be AWD . . . or have a turbo . . . or have both.


I am not certain i would like an wad sportscar...kinda defeats the purpose, no? Lol


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## Swedishchef (Apr 9, 2013)

scooby074 said:


> Long time subaru owner here (Thats where my nick "Scooby" comes from).
> 
> Loyale, Chaser, Legacy.. Yep Ive had a few. And now I got 3 friends into the brand (2 Imprezas and a Legacy) although Im currently driving a Ford (garbage) and a Toyota (excellent).
> 
> ...


I agree they need to bring diesels into the market. Perhaps with the arrival of the Mazda 6 diesel they will get moving. It is not like they need to design the damn thing, just bring it here!


----------



## Swedishchef (Apr 9, 2013)

scooby074 said:


> What should have happened with the BRZ IMHO was the Subie version should have been AWD, and turboed. Both turbo and especially AWD are Subie hallmarks. Having it 2wd goes against the brand.
> 
> The Toyota version should be the 2wd version. It fits with the brand, in the history of the Celica. And it should have had a Toyota motor.
> 
> Selling 2, mostly identical cars like this doesn't make much sense. Plus there was something else I read where there are some stupid import restrictions put on Subaru by the contract with Toyota, that restricts Subaru from selling more cars then Toyota. Im likely wrong on the exact numbers but it was something like for every 3 Toyota (Scion) FR-S Toyota imports, Subaru can import 1. This is going to drive customers to the Toyota dealership because Subie doesn't have or cant get what they want. Pretty dumb move on Subaru's part.


In Canada they don't sell many cars. Last month was their all time record sales and they sold just over 3000. Therefore they would not be able to sell that many BRZs. I agree, they went 2wd and it is counterintuitive. However, they are selling like hotcakes up here. I have had the chance to drive one and they are 10 times more fun than an RX8 or a miata. The S2000 is a damn fun car to drive as well though....


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## Swedishchef (Apr 9, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> So . . . to get this thread back on track . . . my wife loves her Subaru. We're thinking about going with an Outback with the CVT either this December or next . . . maybe used, maybe new.
> 
> Me . . . I'm still holding out hope that the next generation of the BRZ (love that styling -- reminds me a bit of Nissan's super car) will either be AWD . . . or have a turbo . . . or have both.


I wish Canada had US prices...I could get the 3.6r....here i can get the entrance level one for the same price. Lol


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> I agree they need to bring diesels into the market. Perhaps with the arrival of the Mazda 6 diesel they will get moving. It is not like they need to design the damn thing, just bring it here!


 
Not that simple. We have different emissions standards and different fuel. What works well in Japan or Germany won't necessarily work as well here. Google VW HPFP failures.

http://www.thesmokingtire.com/2012/uh-oh-vw-tdis-might-not-be-just-rosy-mpg-numbers/


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## scooby074 (Apr 9, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> In Canada they don't sell many cars. Last month was their all time record sales and they sold just over 3000. Therefore they would not be able to sell that many BRZs. I agree, they went 2wd and it is counterintuitive. However, they are selling like hotcakes up here. I have had the chance to drive one and they are 10 times more fun than an RX8 or a miata. The S2000 is a damn fun car to drive as well though....


 
I haven't driven one myself, but all that Ive read says that it is a heck of a fun car. Not too fast, but a whole lot of fun. Partly due to "undersize"  tires.

AWD and the 2.5 Turbo out of the WRX would completely change that car, for the better!

Part of Subies past problems in Canada have been high prices.My buddy bought a WRX 3 years ago. He saved $5000? by driving to the US to get it. Subaru would get the numbers up, if they get the cost down.


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## Swedishchef (Apr 9, 2013)

scooby074 said:


> I haven't driven one myself, but all that Ive read says that it is a heck of a fun car. Not too fast, but a whole lot of fun. Partly due to "undersize"  tires.
> 
> AWD and the 2.5 Turbo out of the WRX would completely change that car, for the better!
> 
> Part of Subies past problems in Canada have been high prices.My buddy bought a WRX 3 years ago. He saved $5000? by driving to the US to get it. Subaru would get the numbers up, if they get the cost down.


 agreed.

I bought a 2010 forester touring model a few years ago. It was a demo so I saved $4000. I still paid $30500 for it with a few bells and whistles...  There is only one or two Subaru dealers in ns right?


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## Swedishchef (Apr 9, 2013)

begreen said:


> Not that simple. We have different emissions standards and different fuel. What works well in Japan or Germany won't necessarily work as well here. Google VW HPFP failures.
> 
> http://www.thesmokingtire.com/2012/uh-oh-vw-tdis-might-not-be-just-rosy-mpg-numbers/


The diesels Subaru sell are sold in New Zealand and Australia. Here is a great website about its design...  http://boxerdiesel.com/engineering/en/index.html

 And they meet euro 5 standars which seem to be similar to clean diesel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

Not to mention the diesel forester is rated to tow 1800kgs...wow!


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2013)

It has to be tough for them. Japan is not a big diesel market at all, so for now this is primarily being developed for overseas markets. Mazda faced the same issues and yet from what I've read their diesel Mazda 6 is getting very positive reception in Japan. Hope that bodes well for Subaru too.


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## jharkin (Apr 10, 2013)

begreen said:


> Not that simple. We have different emissions standards and different fuel. What works well in Japan or Germany won't necessarily work as well here. Google VW HPFP failures.
> 
> http://www.thesmokingtire.com/2012/uh-oh-vw-tdis-might-not-be-just-rosy-mpg-numbers/


 
BMW blames their gasoline direct injection pump failures on our fuel quality as well.  We need to catch up.


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## jharkin (Apr 10, 2013)

As far as the BRZ, I still think its best left as-is.  You can make a strong case that it wasn't the best business deal for Subie, but I am SOOO glad that there are companies other than Mazda making cars like this.  Its the only true RWD sportscar other than the Miata you can buy today for less that 60 grand, and not have to put up with all kinds of fancy electronic gizmos, driving aids, and such.

And for Toyota the decision to use the Subie engine was deliberate- the boxer 4 layout gives it a lower and more rearward CG (and thus more neutral handling) than is possible with a Toyota upright I-4.


If you add the turbo and AWD to it, it becomes........ a 2 door WRX. They already make a WRX.

More to the point, its designed to be a sports car and track day car, not a rally/all weather car.  If you put two of them on a road course race track driven by pros, one RWD one AWD and everything else - the chassis and engine and brakes - unchanged from the current model, the AWD will loose.

I would give it more power and stickier rear tires, but that's all.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 10, 2013)

I assume you Canadians cannot slip across the border and buy new Subarus . . . but I imagine you must be able to get used Subarus? At least I know a few years back there were a lot of New Brunswickians coming down into Bangor and buying up all kinds of used cars . . . it was crazy how many used cars were being sold and how fast.


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## Swedishchef (Apr 10, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> I assume you Canadians cannot slip across the border and buy new Subarus . . . but I imagine you must be able to get used Subarus? At least I know a few years back there were a lot of New Brunswickians coming down into Bangor and buying up all kinds of used cars . . . it was crazy how many used cars were being sold and how fast.


 
Yes we can get one down south... It is quite simple actually. There is a subaru dealer in NH who has a salesman who deals only with Canadians. The problem is financing is not available (must have a loan from canada or cash) and warranty. Subaru Canada has agreed that if you have a US car and have a problem you must take it to a Subaru dealer in Canada., pay for the repairs and send the bill to Subaru of America which will reimburse the costs. The paperwork takes about 1 hr at the border and you must pay provincial taxes upon arrival in Canada and have it inspected.   But I would only get a model made in Indiana (legacy, outback) as I would not have to pay duties (thank you NAFTA).


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## scooby074 (Apr 10, 2013)

Swedishchef said:


> agreed.
> 
> I bought a 2010 forester touring model a few years ago. It was a demo so I saved $4000. I still paid $30500 for it with a few bells and whistles... There is only one or two Subaru dealers in ns right?


 
There are two that I know for sure. Steele and Central Nova Motors.


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## scooby074 (Apr 10, 2013)

jharkin said:


> As far as the BRZ, I still think its best left as-is. You can make a strong case that it wasn't the best business deal for Subie, but I am SOOO glad that there are companies other than Mazda making cars like this. Its the only true RWD sportscar other than the Miata you can buy today for less that 60 grand, and not have to put up with all kinds of fancy electronic gizmos, driving aids, and such.
> 
> I'm glad there are companies doing it myself!
> 
> ...


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## jharkin (Apr 10, 2013)

First off, Im not opposed to them building an AWD variation, but please leave the RWD for purists...




scooby074 said:


> Of course it was deliberate.. The BRZ/FR-S is a Subaru design!! And Im certainly familiar with the benifits of the Boxer engine, but sticking a Subaru engine under the hood with a Toyota badge on back is akin to a Chevy powered Ford!


 
Platform sharing happens all the time. Many Fords over the years that were rebadged Mazdas (Ranger), various GM vehicles are rebadged Holdens, Opels, etc. Jaguars were built from the Ford parts bin for a few years, Honda's first SUV was a Suzuki. That most famous "British" car the mini is now made by there old enemy in Munich. And the folks in Wolfsburg own a bunch of well known Italian Brands. And on an on.

Oh and dont forget the (in)famous SAABaru's. 




> Fair enough. But this test has never been done, has it? While the RWD is sliding all over the place, the AWD is getting traction. While the AWD has more parasitic losses and more weight, I dont think the 2wd winning is a slam dunk.


 
Happens all the time. Put a 335i on the track against a 335i xdrive. Put a G37 Sport on the track against a G37xS. The car mags have done it. There is a youtube clip of exactly this kind of comparison test done with the G37 by Motorweek and the AWD lost every test except the 0-20mph jump off the line. slalom, breaking distance, track lap times all went to RWD.


I'm no pro driver, but I know pro drivers will typically prefer the RWD setup unless its a performance oriented rear biased AWD system like on the 911 Turbo. The Subaru system is designed for rallying. On dry pavement the symmetrical setup actually hurts the balance and steering feel and result in it under steering like an FWD car.

The RWD BRZ, driven by a pro racing driver, would only be 'sliding all over the place' on the track if the driver is doing it deliberately, like Jeremy Clarkson did in his review segment for Top Gear. (love it!!)




> Plus, in my idea, the Subie version would automatically have more power to overcome any losses in the driveline, because it would have the driveline out of a WRX


 
Its not all about acceleration power in road racing. On a track a light car can at times out drive a heavy powerful car simply by being able to carry more momentum through the turns. Its fun to go to an SCCA vintage event and when the 1960's classes come up watch screaming first generation mini's embarrass big muscle cars through the twisties.


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