# Ready to rip out my coal stove and put in electric baseboard!



## stakirk (Dec 19, 2006)

We bought a coal stove last year (I'll have to check on make/model when I get home) and have been having nothing but trouble this year.  We burn Chestnut coal.

My problem is the SMELL.  The fumes are terrible and today I woke up to the lovely scent of rotten eggs.  I have been searching this and other forums and have seen reference to not using the stove on warmer days because it can cause a "flow reversal" in the chimney.  Could this be our problem?  We are in central NYS and have been experiencing a very warm winter so far.  We have a CO2 detector and it never goes off do I don't believe we are in danger of CO2 issues - just the STINK!

Any help or suggestions that you could offer will be greatly appreciated!


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## Corey (Dec 19, 2006)

I know others will chime in shortly, but it definitely sounds like something is wrong.  I don't belive you should smell the fuel from any heating appliances...especially with the doors closed.  You said when you woke up, so is this assuming the doors were closed all night?

I believe we had one thread last year about a coal stove with the smell actually coming from the hopper and the user needed a better seal around that door.

Corey


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## stoveomatic (Dec 19, 2006)

once again Corey is all over it. Check the seals on the door, hopper and ashtray if equiped. any of these seals could contribute to the smell. Are you getting any smoke back?


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## wg_bent (Dec 19, 2006)

In the past when my parents heated with coal stoves, the only time you would smell anything was for the first minute or two when the stove was reloaded.  Sounds like you have dubious draft.  One of the stoves my parents ran was not air tight, so unless a different stove design, I'm not sure it matters on seals.  Maybe it does.  

You certainly should not wake up to that smell especially since there is no new coal being loaded.  The eggy smell of coal usually disspears totally after it's lit and burning well.


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## webbie (Dec 19, 2006)

Sounds like a chimney problem - and if you smell eggs then you are in danger of CO because this means exhaust from the stove is entering the house.

Tell us about the venting system, stove brand and type. Do you have more than one flue in the chimney? More info please.

Keep in mind that tens of millions of people heated with coal and it worked fine. So yours can too. Something is wrong. Even with relatively warm weather this should not be happening (exception might be when above 50 degrees, in which case coal stoves should not be used).


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## stakirk (Dec 19, 2006)

Thank you to everone who has replied so far - to answer a couple questions:

When I get home I'll get the stove brand.  It's a top-load with a glass window door in front.  We have a triple-wall chimney that was previously used for a wood stove in the same location.  There is a 45 degree angle going out through the masonry wall and another 45degree bend outside.  I'll take a good look at the seals when I get home as well.

Oh - and no -we don't have any smoke.  We also do not have a damper on the chimney - is this an issue?  My DH has mentioned installing a damper to see if that helps?


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## webbie (Dec 19, 2006)

Coal does not produce smoke - but the smell you detect IS the coal gas - or the sulfur in it. 

The basics are this - a chimney should pull hard enough to evacuate all the gases from the stove. My guess from the limited info so far is that the chimney cools down overnight for various reasons (too low of an air setting, too much coal on top, not properly banked) and then the chimney reverses or slows down so much that it fails to evacuate all the gases. 

It is possible that a barometric damper may help because this keeps airflow going up the chimney and therefore at least a certain heat level. Also, you mentioned a masonry wall which makes me think this is a raised ranch or finished basement.....these installations seem to be more suseptible to chimney reversal. 

BTW, CO is the dangerous stuff - that is carbon monoxide. CO2 is dioxide, which is not going to kill you. Although CO is completely odorless, the egg smell is a dead giveaway that you have all the various products of combustion (including CO) coming into the house.

In general, the gaskets and seals will not be the problem. Any small leaks should be pulling IN. The perfect example is older coal stoves which had loose fitting parts, no gaskets, etc - and they worked fine.


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## stakirk (Dec 19, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> BTW, CO is the dangerous stuff - that is carbon monoxide. CO2 is dioxide, which is not going to kill you. Although CO is completely odorless, the egg smell is a dead giveaway that you have all the various products of combustion (including CO) coming into the house.



Can you tell I failed Science in high school?  And yes, the stove is in the lower lever of a raised ranch.  The chimney/vent is (I believe) 8" duct inside and then is 12" outside.  I can have DH confirm this later.

Today was the first time I noticed the egg smell and that was only when I got very close to the stove.   The only time we get the bad "fume smell" is when the stove has gone out or is burning very "cool".  If that makes sense.  We did not have any of this last year and it was a much colder season.  I am still wondering if the warm outside temps are the problem, or possibly a load of "bad" coal?  Although, last night it did get cold enough for the ski area up the road to make snow...


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## Mike Wilson (Dec 19, 2006)

The coal burners are all HERE on the NEPA coal forum...  ask them as well.  It does sound like you have a draft problem... perhaps buying a power venter would help.  Also, coal stoves are highly susceptible to warm temperatures, it kills their already poor drafting abilities.  Remember, the stack temperature of a coal stove is significantly less than that of a wood burner.

-- Mike


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## fishboat (Dec 19, 2006)

stakirk said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



CO2 will kill you just as dead as CO..but CO will get you there quicker due to how your body processes it.  I'd make equal effort to avoid either one.


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## stakirk (Dec 19, 2006)

fishboat said:
			
		

> CO2 will kill you just as dead as CO..but CO will get you there quicker due to how your body processes it.  I'd make equal effort to avoid either one.



That's my goal and the reason I am asking these questions.


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## stakirk (Dec 19, 2006)

Thanks for the link to the other forum - lots of info to read through there.  To answer a previous question, out stove is a Hitzer 30-95 with the optional blower.  We haven't used the blower at all so far this year but last year it was on almost all the time.

I came home to the nasty smell (not the "egg" smell - more of a chemical smell.  can't really explain it) again today and the stove has gone out again.  It is still warm to the touch, but no fire.   It is 30 degrees outside today so the outside temp should not be a problem.


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## ansehnlich1 (Dec 19, 2006)

I'm an ex coal burner here, experienced. I know what I'm talking about. You likely are burning your coal stove too cool. I had Baker stove and burned it for 7 years or so. 

It takes a long time for a coal fire to crank back up after being banked down due to warm weather. Some times the fire will just go out. I often would open the draft all the way and wait up to two hours before the thing started to crank up again. This is risky though due to coal gases building in the stove then finally lighting off, and kaboom. 

Don't burn the coal til it gets cold outside, like 45 or so, the warmer it is outside, the less the draft, the more the odor inside.


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## stakirk (Dec 19, 2006)

Thanks everyone.

That's what my husband thinks it is.  He cleaned it all out and we have an electric heater down there now.  Unfortuately, when we remodeled the lower level of our house we planned on the main heat source down there to be the stove so we need to heat it somehow.  

I'm sick of either having the bad smell and headaches or getting roasted out of the downstairs!  He has been trying to keep it burning "cooler" because we were all complaining that it was too hot downstaris.  It was over 90 degrees one day!  Maybe I'll let him fire it back up for a "test run" after it gets colder outside.  I'm pretty much ready to sell it.


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## ansehnlich1 (Dec 19, 2006)

Pssst, don't tell anyone, but I'd burn wood in my Baker coalstove on those days where I wanted some heat but it wasn't cold enough to fire up the coal. 

I too had a rancher with the coal stove in the basement, it was always like 80 or 85 down there, had to be upstairs when the coal stove was firing.


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## elkimmeg (Dec 20, 2006)

two things not mentioned here thus far the verticle height is recomended to be 20' with 2 45degreee elbows make that 25'

 Another critical part of venting was not addressed here is a cut and past from your manual

A barometric damper should be installed between the heater and chimney. The barometric damper prevents over drafting and spillage


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## nrmahoney@cox.net (Dec 20, 2006)

So what kind of stove is it? I burn coal and the only time I get the smell is when i ad a fresh load. The gas is realeased and you get the smell.  Also its hard to burn coal unless the temp is below 50deg. for at least 24 Hrs.


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## berlin (Dec 20, 2006)

it sounds like he has a short, exterior chimney that is not masonry, thus little ability to store heat from a hot fire and continue draft when the stove burns down, also he is lacking a baro, which is a good idea with anthricite stoves and is generally required by manufacturors. i burn soft coal and have no smell in my house, loading or otherwise, proper gaskets are not an issue for smell, gaskets or otherwise, if there is a lack of proper draft the stove will leak exhaust into the home.


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## coldinnj (Dec 20, 2006)

The main problem is this...
BAD COAL, BAD COAL, BAD COAL.
I agree with the other responses on checking for poor drafting problems etc. However it takes bad coal to produce the sulphur smell. With good, hard anthracite you do not get that odor. With bad coal not only do you get the odor but you also get the problems associated with a fuel that does not burn as well therefore lower stack temps and hence poor draft.
Eve nwith a very good draft when putting on bad coal I have gotton the smell at first.
Suggest you try a different coal supply, make sure they are not getting it from the same mine.
Also of course heed the prior comments about checking your drafts.


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## berlin (Dec 20, 2006)

"bad coal to produce the sulphur smell. With good, hard anthracite you do not get that odor"

this is completely not true. false, false false. regardless of what is being burned they have problems with their chimney system. has nothing to do with the coal! stop spewing nonsense and confusing people! there should be no smell in the home regardless of what they are burning; tire chips, wood, coal, cow chit, or otherwise!


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## wg_bent (Dec 20, 2006)

berlin said:
			
		

> "bad coal to produce the sulphur smell. With good, hard anthracite you do not get that odor"
> 
> this is completely not true. false, false false. regardless of what is being burned they have problems with their chimney system. has nothing to do with the coal! stop spewing nonsense and confusing people! there should be no smell in the home regardless of what they are burning; tire chips, wood, coal, cow chit, or otherwise!



I agree with this post.  Maybe a litte at first, but none thereafter.  I also agree with the cold chimney thing.  Sounds like you need a smaller stove.  How big is the room?  Look into a Harman Mark I or Morso 1410.


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## HarryBack (Dec 20, 2006)

That Hitzer is a good unit, we sell them. A few ideas. The baro damper....good for overdrafting, but wont help you in a short draft situation. Do you have a hand damper in the pipe? Use one if you have no baro damper, dont use one if you do have one. Also, if you have a hand damper, has it come undone from the spindle, and thusly blocking draft, even though it seems your turning it? 

   How much of an ash bed do you keep? The coal should never be burning directly on the grates, should have an ash buffer of around 1 to 1-1/2" above the grates. Leaks? Maybe, but if youve poor draft, the coal gas could be coming out the intake. A possible bad weld? Maybe, but if the stove never did this before, its unlikely. Has the chimney and stove been cleaned well? Flyash can accumulate in alarming proportions, also blocking draft. Is there a dead animal in the pipe? Beesnest?

   How tight is the home? Do you only smell the nasty smell after several hours of prolonged burning with the house being closed up (tight house)? 

   Powerventers, or draft inducers......when used in an existing CHIMNEY, I view them as a bandaid approach to solving cancer. Power goes out? Youre done. 

Good Luck!


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## HarryBack (Dec 20, 2006)

coldinnj said:
			
		

> The main problem is this...
> BAD COAL, BAD COAL, BAD COAL.
> I agree with the other responses on checking for poor drafting problems etc. However it takes bad coal to produce the sulphur smell. With good, hard anthracite you do not get that odor. With bad coal not only do you get the odor but you also get the problems associated with a fuel that does not burn as well therefore lower stack temps and hence poor draft.
> Eve nwith a very good draft when putting on bad coal I have gotton the smell at first.
> ...



With the greatest, best Anthracite in the world, you still get coal gas. Large amounts of ash, low heat possibly can be attributed to "bad coal", but not smell inside the home.


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## stakirk (Dec 20, 2006)

OK.  Lots to take in here.  

First let me say that the vertical height of the chimney is easily over 20'.  

Second, excuse me for being stupid - but what is a baro damper?  And, no, we do not have a hand damper.  The only damper is the one on the back of the stove.

Third - the "room" is the entire downstairs of the house.  Approx. 800Sq.ft.  and no, it is definately not a "tight" house.  

For now we have let the stove go competely out and have cleaned it out.  We will be cleaning the chimney this weekend to be sure that is not the problem.  We are going to wait until the "warm" weather breaks and try it again.  

Thanks everyone for all of the input so far.  You have all been very helpful.


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## wg_bent (Dec 20, 2006)

Yeah, good point on the ash accumulation Harryback.  I remember cleaning out the chimney one year, and the ash accumulation at the bottom of the chimney where there was a small horizontal run blocked like 3/4 of the pipe.  

The other thing is that one year we noticed that the pipe looked like swiss cheese.  The acid from the coal burning ate right through the steel pipe.  Of course we replaced it, but you might examine your pipe carefully while your cleaning it.


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## coldinnj (Dec 20, 2006)

Berlin: The direct insult / flame is not called for/ needed / nor appropriate. I speak from knowledge and experience. Read my original post carefully and correctly, I stated that there were other problems to look into also. That being said the design of most coal burning stoves is not an air tight one. The POC (that is  Products of Combustion0 in case you did not know) do not come into the living space as they take the route up the chimney based on laws of physics that I asm to busy to explain now. If the draft is good enough this will happen. However even with a bad draft or many leaks the telltale smell of sulphur comes with BAD COAL.
As too looking for leaks one good satrt is: if the system was not cleaned out thoroughly at the end of the heating season then the ash that lays in the system, be it pipes or stove body, will get wet from moisture collection. This will result in acid leeching onto the metal parts hence eating through them. Look for hidden holes especially where the ash would lay in the pipes.
These holes will allow the draft air to be replaced from these holes rather then from under the burnming coal bed, thus reducing your effective draft adding to your problem.
So as previously stated you have two problems.
1) Look into draft issues.
2) Have your coal checked as even with bad draft a good coal does not produce a noticable sulphur smell.
And Berlin please start talking from knowledge not emotion and rhetoric.


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## berlin (Dec 20, 2006)

i apologize if i came off a bit harsh, but my goal was not to inflame you, but rather make it clear that the info you were giving was wrong. I am not about to get into a pissing match on qualifactions, however, i can assure you that i have extensive experience with coal both in residential heating and industrial; don't wrongfully assume that you're an authority on the subject.


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## coldinnj (Dec 20, 2006)

Yes Berlin, you did come off a bit harsh. Try to remember all who post here have their motives. I am not in the selling end of the trade. I do not have the ulterior motives that could  (hopefully not) tend to persuade others. My only motive is to share information and gain information from and with others as accurately as possible. I do not profess to be THE authority on the subject. But do not assume that I or others are not authorities in different fields either. I assume all know what they are talking about until proved eleswise. If they are incorrect I try to help them. I do not try to put them down or try to prove I am a better authority. That is a mistake. The old expression: those people who think they know it all, rally p**s off those of us who do. Can be applied. I do not know it all. But I do speak from knowledge. What I said has been discussed, analyzed and acceptaed by chemists, and people whose professions, careers and specialties are in the coal industries. Remember the goal is to help others. not to start bashing each other. That unfortunately brings one to question the motives of the one doing the bashing. I'd like to believe you simply made an error and just wish to help the individual also. Interesting I wonder how many different coals from different locations you have been involved in direct testing of. There is a huge difference in what can come out of a different vein at one mine alone.


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## webbie (Dec 20, 2006)

The sulfur smell is that of the small amount of gases that burn on anthracite coal. When a coal fire is burning well, this gas is largely consumed by the small blue flames coming off the coal bed. However, when a stove does not have the critical mass to ignite these gases, they go up the chimney unburned.

Either way, they should not come into the house. The problem in this case is pretty evident - the chimney is not maintaining an updraft when the stove is banked. This is due to many factors, including operator and chimney.

Harry, even though a baro is generally for overdraft, it can help in other situations like this - example:

Stove works fine when running medium or hot -  Now stove is turned down low - no heat. The chimney effectively stops drawing. The only place the chimney can get air from is through the coal bed, which may be ashed up or too full with coal, or the input air open only slightly. In a case like this, having room air enter the chimney through a baro - even the little that can leak into it, will help the chimney maintain a pull and make it less likely to reverse. 

In other words, having continuous air movement up the chimney is ideal.


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## Metal (Dec 20, 2006)

I know you said your house is not airtight, but something to check also is if you have negative pressure in the house.  Homes today that are considered "not airtight" are still sealed up much tighter than in "the days of old."  Things like hot water heaters, furnaces, bathroom vents, dryers, etc. can be competing with your stove and actually sucking air out of it into the room.  Crack a door open and see if air is sucked into the house, this could be a sign of not enough makeup air in the house.


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## elkimmeg (Dec 20, 2006)

Got to ask who installed this stove without reading the installation manual?  I mean if the owner is asking us what a barometric damper is
 he has not read the manual either.    The manual also details  the purposes of cleaning the stove and flue. It also details proper opperations
 The owner has to take some responsibility  for not taking the time to read his manual. If He did He would have known the Baro was required and recomended

 Where is dealer support. Have you called the dealerto find possible solutions? who installed it? Why was not the chimney  and stove cleaned in the spring?

 Did you know the damage sulfur and coal ash can caused left in the flue and stove? Why the spring, because higher humidity occures in the summer?  
It condensates and  combines with sulfur creating sulfuric acid.   Not only eats the metals but also eats away clay flue liners.  Coal stoves have to be cleanned in 
the spring or after the heating season has ended. Did you know the importance of an ash bed?


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