# Is storage a "must" with a gasifier?



## bigbear (Jan 25, 2013)

I've been trying to read up on indoor gasification boilers and it seems like the majority of folks using them are also using storage.  I'm going to be buying a boiler in the next few months (not determined which one yet), but I don't really have the space in my basement to add alot of storage, if any.  So, in a situation like mine, is a gassifier a wise choice, or should I look at other options.  Does anyone burn a gasser without storage?  My main concern is that without storage will they adequately heat my 20 year old 2300sq./ft. (1150 each floor) raised ranch home through the night and while I'm at work during the day.


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## BadgerBoilerMN (Jan 25, 2013)

A gasser generally makes for a hotter cleaner more efficient burn. Storage makes it last longer and cost less to operate. The size of the particular boiler and its operating characteristics and how it matches up with your existing radiation will determine how well it heats your home.  You will likely want to store domestic hot water though. We use indirect water heaters in our designs.


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## avc8130 (Jan 25, 2013)

I don't have storage. I have a 2500 sq ft ranch, single floor. I am located in Northwest NJ, on a ridge at 1k feet elevation with a clean line of attack for wind.

My gassifier has EASILY heated my house through the low temps this week. We have been ~5F without wind chill at night and around 15F without windchill during the days for the past few days.

It has also supplied me with hot water for 2 showers/day and running the dishwasher every 2 days.

I am able to load the boiler 2x daily if I want to accomplish this.  I load it once at 6:30AM for the day load and again at 6:30pm for the night load.  I usually check in on the boiler before bed just because I sleep better that way 

I have burned 40 cu ft of wood since Saturday to accomplish this. This wood consumption is WAY higher than I was experiencing when it was ~30F outside. I am satisfied, we haven't burned a drop of oil since Nov 19th. Heck, I don't even have an oil burner hooked up right now.

Would storage be "better"?  I'm not sure, but THEY say it would be.

ac


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 25, 2013)

If i descide not to go with storage theni will be getting a woodgun. Avc wont stop singing and dancing about how much he loves his. I am leaning towards vedolux and storage tho, well this week anyway. And there seems to be a learning curve no matter what system you get. Theres plenty of time for research before next heating season but get up on your wood supply now.


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## maple1 (Jan 25, 2013)

Whether it is strictly a must or not depends on the boiler. Eg., avc's Woodgun & most others it isn't (they will function without it by going into idle [closing air intake] when up to hot temp), mine it is (burns wide open all the time so must have storage to take the extra heat when up to hot temp).

If you get talking past the functionality requirements, it's more of a debate - I would be sold on storage even if my boiler could function without it, but not all are. It adds a lot of convenience and gives you more to come & go on with firings. A firing cushion, so to speak. I loaded my last load of wood in my boiler at 10pm last night (a partial load since my storage was almost up to temp), and am about to go check on my storage temps to see when I will need to light again. It's sunny but windy here, -15c. I might light right away, might be a couple more hours yet. This is worst case/coldest condtions, normally I can go to supper time or early evening before re-firing. The coolest our two storey house gets now at any time is 19c. The main difference in firing operation between storage & non-storage is that with it, I need to make a new fire every day (nothing but cold ash left), whereas those without can likely find enough hot coals left from the last fire that they can just scrape those together, add wood & go again.

But we ALL like not burning oil.


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## Nofossil (Jan 25, 2013)

I've run both ways. Storage might provide some gains in efficiency (less idling), but for me it provided a HUGE increase in comfort and convenience. I can build fires when I want to, and the house temperatures stays pretty much constant. When it's warmer and sunnier, I can go two or even three days between fires, and I *never* have to worry about running out of hot water (which would ironically get me in hot water).

Last I looked some manufacturers strongly suggested storage, and some required it.

If you can't do storage as part of the initial project, see if it's possible to plan for future storage and plumb accordingly.


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## avc8130 (Jan 25, 2013)

Why wouldn't the house temps be constant without storage?  For the entire learning period with my boiler I had never experienced more than 2F off the set point on my thermostats.  That includes periods of running out of wood, losing the fire and anything else that had the boiler losing temp. 

When I installed my boiler I left provisions for storage.  One day I may go back and add storage.  The problem is, in my area I just can't find propane tanks cheap.  Adding storage to my system looks like it would cost me ~$2k+ between tanks, controls, insulation, pumps, etc.  Right now I am already burning no oil, so I am already on the "recovery" portion of my investment.  Adding storage would just aid in convenience and I don't feel inconvenienced in the least right now.  If that changes, I'll cross that bridge later.

Another factoid: NO ONE with storage has publicly stated life was better WITHOUT storage.  So, I am confident that if you did install storage you would like it.

ac


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## bmblank (Jan 25, 2013)

I would absolutely go with storage for the reasons just posted. Build a fire at convenience instead of doing it because its cold. I'm getting a couple days out of mine in the winter. Its also serving my domestic, so in the summer I'm expecting a few weeks between fires maybe (hopefully).


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 25, 2013)

Gotta look how much storage you could fit and how it would benifit you. For my lifestyle of i could not fit enough storage such that i had to light two or more fires a day then it would not be worth it to me. I am currently planning to start off with 1000 gallons and hope to only need one fire a day unless the high temp of the day remains much below freezing. I thought i had decent insulation in my 2x6 constructed 2400sqft house but my oil burner has been struggling to bring the house up to a blazing 62'. It just shut off now. 18'f outside. This is partly because i let the downstairs go to 55' at night. Most on here that are currently burning wood would consider this unsuitable living conditions but i cant afford the oil. Gotta make 330 more gallons last till july. Oh and i got vaulted cielings upstairs. 

Maple, how much area are you heating and to what temp?


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## bigbear (Jan 25, 2013)

> I don't have storage. I have a 2500 sq ft ranch, single floor. I am located in Northwest NJ, on a ridge at 1k feet elevation with a clean line of attack for wind.
> 
> My gassifier has EASILY heated my house through the low temps this week. We have been ~5F without wind chill at night and around 15F without windchill during the days for the past few days.
> 
> ...


 
what gasser do you have?


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## muncybob (Jan 25, 2013)

bigbear said:


> what gasser do you have?


 He has a Wood Gun as do I. Since you are in PA, why not pay a visit to Alternative Heating Systems and see them 1st hand?
I would LOVE to have storage, esp in the shoulder seasons. To me it's mostly a convenience factor...not a necessity. In Oct to early Nov and then mid March to April I wish I had it...otherwise I never even think about it.

2 things you should consider before "pulling the trigger" is 1. do you have well seasoned wood ready to burn? 2. Is the structure well insulated.  Can't stress enough about how important #1 is regardless of what unit you buy. #2 will save you work and $$ in the long run.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 25, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> Gotta look how much storage you could fit and how it would benifit you. For my lifestyle of i could not fit enough storage such that i had to light two or more fires a day then it would not be worth it to me. I am currently planning to start off with 1000 gallons and hope to only need one fire a day unless the high temp of the day remains much below freezing. I thought i had decent insulation in my 2x6 constructed 2400sqft house but my oil burner has been struggling to bring the house up to a blazing 62'. It just shut off now. 18'f outside. This is partly because i let the downstairs go to 55' at night. Most on here that are currently burning wood would consider this unsuitable living conditions but i cant afford the oil. Gotta make 330 more gallons last till july. Oh and i got vaulted cielings upstairs.
> 
> Maple, how much area are you heating and to what temp?


 
Your conditions sound like my house the first year I lived in it.  We kept the thermostat down to make the oil last.  I bought the wood boiler to save on the heating costs, even if I am just heating the great outdoors.  This summer will be insulation and weather stripping upgrades.  Those are easily the best paybacks, and if you can do something thats easy to insulate your house, I would start there for sure. 

What size is your oil burner, and what are your heat emitters?  Fin tube?  Radiators?


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 25, 2013)

90,000 btu/hr installed right before i bought the house a little over a year ago. Slant fin basebord. Outside temp did go down to 7'f last night.


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## avc8130 (Jan 25, 2013)

muncybob said:


> He has a Wood Gun as do I. Since you are in PA, why not pay a visit to Alternative Heating Systems and see them 1st hand?
> I would LOVE to have storage, esp in the shoulder seasons. To me it's mostly a convenience factor...not a necessity. In Oct to early Nov and then mid March to April I wish I had it...otherwise I never even think about it.
> 
> 2 things you should consider before "pulling the trigger" is 1. do you have well seasoned wood ready to burn? 2. Is the structure well insulated. Can't stress enough about how important #1 is regardless of what unit you buy. #2 will save you work and $$ in the long run.


 

While I would never "fight" someone over the benefits of insulation...most estimates place insulation investments at 5-10 year pay back.  I'll have my wood boiler "paid back" in 3. 

Get off the oil first.  Get your savings back up from the initial hit.  Then move on to insulation with the "surplus" created each year after that.

The big hurdle is to just get a boiler going in the first place.  Keep the scope of the project small so you can both afford it and accomplish it.  Leave yourself some expansion room and you can always tailor the plan and setup later as time and money allow.

ac


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## Tennman (Jan 25, 2013)

Now in our 4th year heating with our BioMass an inefficient 4800 sf historic home without storage. For us payback was in about 2-3 years because we were heating our old monster with propane. After the first year finally got better seasoned wood and got the kinks out. They will absolutely heat your place but for us, without my wife adding some wood during the day our house would be cool when I get home after my typical 10-11 hr day. I load at about 9-10pm and by 4-6am depending on the temps it needs loading. I will be adding storage for our 5th heating season to add convenience.


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## kopeck (Jan 25, 2013)

I think it makes the best of your time and wood.  I don't think you need it (if your boiler can function with out storage, mine requires it) but it's going to be like running more like a conventional boiler.

K


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## maple1 (Jan 25, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> Gotta look how much storage you could fit and how it would benifit you. For my lifestyle of i could not fit enough storage such that i had to light two or more fires a day then it would not be worth it to me. I am currently planning to start off with 1000 gallons and hope to only need one fire a day unless the high temp of the day remains much below freezing. I thought i had decent insulation in my 2x6 constructed 2400sqft house but my oil burner has been struggling to bring the house up to a blazing 62'. It just shut off now. 18'f outside. This is partly because i let the downstairs go to 55' at night. Most on here that are currently burning wood would consider this unsuitable living conditions but i cant afford the oil. Gotta make 330 more gallons last till july. Oh and i got vaulted cielings upstairs.
> 
> Maple, how much area are you heating and to what temp?


 
First floor 1500 sq.ft, second floor 1200 sq.ft., basement 1500 sq.ft. unfinished but mostly insulated.

The thermostats all set back to 19c at 11pm (not sure if setbacks help - it's a throw back to days with my old unit plus I find hotter than that upsets my sleeping). Downstairs goes back up to 21c at 6:30am, upstairs back up to 21c at 6pm. The basement is not piped for heat since it's not a living space, but I have one end of my storage enclosure cracked open to let heat out right now as it was getting a bit too chilly down there for my liking. I think I would be living here alone in short order if it was only 55f.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 25, 2013)

I'm currently thinking pellet boiler.  But that can change.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 25, 2013)

That is nice to hear. I think i would be very happy with a 1000 gallon tank. I have the room to stand it vertical in the barn just outside the room that the boiler will be in. Will be insulating room and tank hopefully with spray foam when they spray the trench.  Finances willing of course...


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## bigbear (Jan 25, 2013)

muncybob said:


> He has a Wood Gun as do I. Since you are in PA, why not pay a visit to Alternative Heating Systems and see them 1st hand?
> I would LOVE to have storage, esp in the shoulder seasons. To me it's mostly a convenience factor...not a necessity. In Oct to early Nov and then mid March to April I wish I had it...otherwise I never even think about it.
> 
> 2 things you should consider before "pulling the trigger" is 1. do you have well seasoned wood ready to burn? 2. Is the structure well insulated. Can't stress enough about how important #1 is regardless of what unit you buy. #2 will save you work and $$ in the long run.


 
I probably have 10 cords of dry hard maple, cherry and red oak cut, split and stacked in my wood shed, so wood shouldn't a problem. As soon as the weather breaks I'll start cutting for next winter. Tons of dead hard maples standing around here so getting good wood isn't an issue.

I am not sure what insulation is in the walls of the house. I'm currently in the process of finishing my basement and just put R-19 up the whole way around. The basement is partially exposed.

I plan on going to the home/builders show at the farm show building.  Hopefully there will be a couple different brands represented there under one roof.  If not I'll just go a little further straight to AHS.


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## muncybob (Jan 25, 2013)

Wow! You are much better prepared to heat with wood than we were. In the end it came down to 2 boilers in our price range for us since I do not have room for storage and I wanted my boiler inside the house. The WG fit(barely) into the basement without making any modifications to the house. I had read good and not so good things about these boilers while doing my research. I think for the most part this will be true of most units.


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## chuck172 (Jan 25, 2013)

I have 500 gallons of storage and I hardly notice it. Once the boiler runs out of wood, the storage cools down fast. 1000  gallons would add to the convenience, but my wife drew the line with one submarine in the basement.


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## James Reimer (Jan 25, 2013)

I think the usefulness of storage would depend on many factors.  I go through a full load every 12 hours in the coldest months, so storage wouldn't be that useful for me during those times.  However during the shoulder season it would help my efficiency out, as the boiler wouldn't be idling as much (but I would be lighting more fires instead of just raking the coals and throwing in more wood).

I think if you size it right to burn a 3/4 to full load every 12 hours in the coldest months you wouldn't see a great benefit to storage.  But if you want to use it year round for DHW then yes, storage would be very useful to the cleanliness and efficiency of your boiler.


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## Fred61 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Reimer said:


> I think the usefulness of storage would depend on many factors. I go through a full load every 12 hours in the coldest months, so storage wouldn't be that useful for me during those times. However during the shoulder season it would help my efficiency out, as the boiler wouldn't be idling as much (but I would be lighting more fires instead of just raking the coals and throwing in more wood).
> 
> I think if you size it right to burn a 3/4 to full load every 12 hours in the coldest months you wouldn't see a great benefit to storage. But if you want to use it year round for DHW then yes, storage would be very useful to the cleanliness and efficiency of your boiler.


 You're sounding like someone that hasn't experienced the joys of having storage.


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## James Reimer (Jan 25, 2013)

I admit that I have never had storage.  But I will also admit that I would like storage!   Someday...It's just not in the budget right now.

FWIW my personal opinion to date is if you live in a moderate climate with a fairly insulated home there are great benefits to storage.  If you live in a very cold climate with a leaky home the benefits and ROI of storage decreases as the boiler is idling less.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't storage also give you a greater margin of error in correctly sizing the boiler for your needs?  If it's too small for night temperatures it could make it up during the day and if it's too big for your home it wouldn't sit idling?


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## Fred61 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Reimer said:


> I admit that I have never had storage. But I will also admit that I would like storage!  Someday...It's just not in the budget right now.
> 
> FWIW my personal opinion to date is if you live in a moderate climate with a fairly insulated home there are great benefits to storage. If you live in a very cold climate with a leaky home the benefits and ROI of storage decreases as the boiler is idling less.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't storage also give you a greater margin of error in correctly sizing the boiler for your needs? If it's too small for night temperatures it could make it up during the day and if it's too big for your home it wouldn't sit idling?


 I'd say you are correct on both statements.


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## maple1 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Reimer said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't storage also give you a greater margin of error in correctly sizing the boiler for your needs? If it's too small for night temperatures it could make it up during the day and if it's too big for your home it wouldn't sit idling?


 
I'd agree with that - goes to the 'firing cushion' thing I mentioned in my first reply.


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## heaterman (Jan 25, 2013)

I recall a conversation with a person at Econoburn in which he told me the majority of their boilers were installed without storage a few years ago. Now the trend is the other way with nearly all of them being installed with some amount of storage.

That should tell you something.........

When I look at whats coming down the turnpike in the industry concerning regulations, I think that we will see some kind of mandate from EPA that all cordwood boilers must be sold with storage. On/off cycles are dirty. Period. It may be 3-5 years out yet........... Guessing that the recommended amount will be dictated by the btu output of the boiler being installed. (of course, that would make sense and we are talking about EPA here so draw your own conclusions)
Storage is nearly universal in Europe where they have been doing this a lot longer than we have.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 26, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> That is nice to hear. I think i would be very happy with a 1000 gallon tank. I have the room to stand it vertical in the barn just outside the room that the boiler will be in. Will be insulating room and tank hopefully with spray foam when they spray the trench. Finances willing of course...


 
The fact that you can go vertical with 1000 gallons will definitely help out your stratification in the tank.  Before you spray it, think about how you might want to monitor the temperatures on the tank so you can get your probes right up against the metal.  I find its amazingly helpful to know what the top, middle, and bottom of storage temps are.


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## maple1 (Jan 26, 2013)

I would think they would regulate boiler emissions tighter first before going the big jump to regulating required storage? That's a pretty significant upping of requirements for a lot of people & installations.

Or do you mean they would regulate required storage but still allow 'dirty' boilers but they be tied to the required storage?


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## Clarkbug (Jan 26, 2013)

bigbear said:


> I plan on going to the home/builders show at the farm show building. Hopefully there will be a couple different brands represented there under one roof. If not I'll just go a little further straight to AHS.


 
Not sure where in PA you are, but you may be close not only to AHS, but also AHONA and Smokeless Heat.  Just in case you dont see what you were hoping for at the home show.  For a few more miles, you could head up to check out Econoburn also.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 26, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I would think they would regulate boiler emissions tighter first before going the big jump to regulating required storage? That's a pretty significant upping of requirements for a lot of people & installations.
> 
> Or do you mean they would regulate required storage but still allow 'dirty' boilers but they be tied to the required storage?


 
My guess would be that they would use language that isnt clear and is vague enough to not really solve the problem.  Like "All newly installed solid fuel boilers shall be installed with a means to prevent excessive cycling of the burn process."  Or "boilers shall be connected to a suitable thermal storage battery to minimize the amount of time spent outside the ideal combustion zone". 

Something goofy that means different things to different people.

But here in NY they already made it illegal to have a conventional outdoor boiler, and you now need one that is EPA white tag certified.  It wouldnt surprise me if eventually they try to move to regulate indoor boilers and woodstoves also.  If people would just be good neighbors and not smoke everyone out, these problems wouldnt happen.  (IMO)


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 26, 2013)

Clarkbug said:


> The fact that you can go vertical with 1000 gallons will definitely help out your stratification in the tank.  Before you spray it, think about how you might want to monitor the temperatures on the tank so you can get your probes right up against the metal.  I find its amazingly helpful to know what the top, middle, and bottom of storage temps are.


 i think i would like at least three sensor and i am open to suggestions of what products to use to moniter temps. I have not looked into this yet. I suspect there are options for probes into the tank as well as sensors affixed to the outside of tank.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 26, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> i think i would like at least three sensor and i am open to suggestions of what products to use to moniter temps. I have not looked into this yet. I suspect there are options for probes into the tank as well as sensors affixed to the outside of tank.


 
There are some good threads about monitoring storage temps, and I stole my setup from others on here.  I used temperature sensors off of eBay, and they are just strapped to my tanks in three locations with heavy duty HVAC tape and thermal grease.  Depending on what the tank has for openings, you may be able to use temperature wells, which is what I would do if they were already in place. 

My sensors were from Sure Electronics.  Not too happy that they were straight from China, but for the cost and their performance so far, I really cant complain.


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## maple1 (Jan 26, 2013)

Thermal grease - I think I need some of that for my sidearm thermostat I've got rigged up (a flat thermostat on a  3/4 round valve body doesn't seem to be working the best). Here comes another search...


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## Clarkbug (Jan 26, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Thermal grease - I think I need some of that for my sidearm thermostat I've got rigged up (a flat thermostat on a 3/4 round valve body doesn't seem to be working the best). Here comes another search...


 
Radio shack or a computer store should have it.  Its the stuff designed for getting heat transfer between microchips and heat sinks. 

Not sure if that would work out well for your situation or not Maple....  But it probably couldnt hurt. Im not sure if there is some conductive silly putty that you could stick in there that would help or not...


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## heaterman (Jan 26, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I would think they would regulate boiler emissions tighter first before going the big jump to regulating required storage? That's a pretty significant upping of requirements for a lot of people & installations.
> 
> Or do you mean they would regulate required storage but still allow 'dirty' boilers but they be tied to the required storage?


 

Well the deal is that the agencies involved in testing are finding out that storage and emissions are very much connected. The ability to reduce the number of on/off cycles for a given batch of fuel is being shown to have a marked effect on emissions. Fewer on/off cycles = fewer emissions.

It's the reason the Garns meet and beat the current emission level so easily. Plain and simple. No "magic" needed.


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## Vermontphil (Jan 26, 2013)

Storage with a gasifier.   Perfect time to ask me this question.  After 4 years of owning an econoburn and never getting it to heat just right.  I have begun to build a 1,600 gal storage tank.  The big problem I have found is that the gasification loves to burn hot.  But you also need to be able to take the heat off quickly then.  A large storage allows it do to what it wants burn hot and give of heat. I think radiant heat which I have also does not allow for a rapid transfer of heat to keep up with the boiler.   So it is basically an issue where if you just need to maintain temps-my boiler doesn't like to idle and wants to over-heat.  I am planning on 4 60 foot 1/2 inch coils to do the heat exchange in the tank feeding off an 1 1/2" pipe.  Got to check the math on that.  But either way I am a firm believe in the need for storage with gasification


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## peakbagger (Jan 27, 2013)

I had my wood boiler for 10 years without storage (its not a gasifer but its the same principal). I burned far more oil as the most boilers are desgined to burn full out, that is the only way to be efficient. If you dont need the heat, they inevitably shut off the draft and at some point go into "smoke dragon" mode. Once I put in storage, I basically stopped buying oil as I would run the boiler every coupel fo day in shoulder season and then slowly ramp up to once per day.

American Solartechnics sells modular tanks that can be sized for odd spaces and can be brought in through anywhere you can walk to.


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## CTFIRE (Jan 27, 2013)

I have 8 or 9 weeks experience with my Woodgun, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't have storage and still struggle with the need for it. I agree that there were a couple warm days in December early on when there wasn't enough demand and the fire would go out. My new problem is running it full on without the low temp shutoff. Have burn through entire nights load a couple times. I am continuing to read up on the storage vs non storage and figure I can decide later on. I can't say enough good things about the Woodgun. I am shocked at how little ash there is to clean up. Very efficient. We are heating 3000 sf with the e180. Haven't hooked up the oil back up yet. My wife laughs every time she sees an oil truck drive by the house


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## McKraut (Jan 28, 2013)

bigbear said:


> I've been trying to read up on indoor gasification boilers and it seems like the majority of folks using them are also using storage. I'm going to be buying a boiler in the next few months (not determined which one yet), but I don't really have the space in my basement to add alot of storage, if any. So, in a situation like mine, is a gassifier a wise choice, or should I look at other options. Does anyone burn a gasser without storage? My main concern is that without storage will they adequately heat my 20 year old 2300sq./ft. (1150 each floor) raised ranch home through the night and while I'm at work during the day.


 
Bigbear,

 I've burned for over 18 years without storage. When I first got the boiler there was little mention of storage so I never considered it. My Tarm has only had a few days when it had trouble keeping the house and DHW comfortable. My house is a very old farmhouse with little insulation and a lot of drafts. I usually heat 4 floors (including the basement and sometimes the attic)  depending upon how many kids are home. I burn anywhere from 3 & 1/2 cords (last year) to as many as 7 cords (usually around 5 cords a year of red oak).
 I have never had a problem with creosote formation, never had any noticeable deterioration of the firebox, and never had any serious problems with the boiler. It has worked very hard and I have gotten more then my money's worth from it. I am in the process of putting in a EKO Biomass in a woodshed, and I can't afford the storage this year or probably next year. After reading the posts on this forum, I decided that I would go with storage. The people that know what they're talking about recommend using storage.
 I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can do it without storage, but you would be better off with it. Best of luck to you.

Bob

Where are you located in PA? I'm in Fulton County.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 28, 2013)

Bob please share with us how often you are tending fires.


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## avc8130 (Jan 28, 2013)

I think people need to clarify "tending" a fire.  I spend 6 mins in front of my boiler/day.  That is 3 mins in the morning and 3 mins in the evening.  No storage.

From what I read from the storage guys, they need 1 fire/day and sometimes 2.  Is that 1 fire = 1 LOAD?  In other words, throw in wood and what you know will start and walk away?  Or is that start a fire in the evening and reload it until storage is up to temp?

ac


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## bmblank (Jan 28, 2013)

With mine,i make a fire and load it up. Then i load it up every 3 our so hours, give or take depending on my schedule, until the storage is 180 or so. Then i forget about it until the storage is down to 110-120 or so, again, depending on schedule, usually a couple days in the winter, hopefully allot longer in the summer.


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## gimmegas (Jan 28, 2013)

OK. Since we are talking about storage here, I was wondering how much volume does a 1000 gal tank take up, and what are the advantages of 1000 gal vs. say, 500 gal? I know it seems intuitive but does 1000 gal. hold temp that much better than 500 gal. tank? Seems like more water will take more wood to heat, but if it's well insulated then... Will the 1000 gal storage save me from stoking more wood? I haven't purchased a boiler yet but will likely get one this year and I am building new. I plan to use radiant heat for about 2400 sq ft and baseboard for 600 and also use it for DHW if I can. Just wondering if the extra cash for a 1000 gal tank is that much more economical that a 500 gal tank?? Also, where can I find a 1000 gal storage tank and how would I get it in my basement? Do I have to build my house around it??? Will I have to consider a thicker cement slab to support it??? At 8.33 lb/ gal x 1000, seems like a lot. Anyone want to tackle this?


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 29, 2013)

gimmegas said:


> OK. Since we are talking about storage here, I was wondering how much volume does a 1000 gal tank take up, and what are the advantages of 1000 gal vs. say, 500 gal? I know it seems intuitive but does 1000 gal. hold temp that much better than 500 gal. tank? Seems like more water will take more wood to heat, but if it's well insulated then... Will the 1000 gal storage save me from stoking more wood? I haven't purchased a boiler yet but will likely get one this year and I am building new. I plan to use radiant heat for about 2400 sq ft and baseboard for 600 and also use it for DHW if I can. Just wondering if the extra cash for a 1000 gal tank is that much more economical that a 500 gal tank?? Also, where can I find a 1000 gal storage tank and how would I get it in my basement? Do I have to build my house around it??? Will I have to consider a thicker cement slab to support it??? At 8.33 lb/ gal x 1000, seems like a lot. Anyone want to tackle this?


It doesn't hold temp better but 1000 gallong contains twice as many btus as 500 gallons. Yes more wood for given delta t but can go longer between fires, prob almost twice as long. I am having some trouble locating a tank that big but i dont think they are much more money than 500 gal. Now moving a 1000 is also probably twice as more interesting than 500.


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## maple1 (Jan 29, 2013)

gimmegas said:


> OK. Since we are talking about storage here, I was wondering how much volume does a 1000 gal tank take up, and what are the advantages of 1000 gal vs. say, 500 gal? I know it seems intuitive but does 1000 gal. hold temp that much better than 500 gal. tank? Seems like more water will take more wood to heat, but if it's well insulated then... Will the 1000 gal storage save me from stoking more wood? I haven't purchased a boiler yet but will likely get one this year and I am building new. I plan to use radiant heat for about 2400 sq ft and baseboard for 600 and also use it for DHW if I can. Just wondering if the extra cash for a 1000 gal tank is that much more economical that a 500 gal tank?? Also, where can I find a 1000 gal storage tank and how would I get it in my basement? Do I have to build my house around it??? Will I have to consider a thicker cement slab to support it??? At 8.33 lb/ gal x 1000, seems like a lot. Anyone want to tackle this?


 
Bigger tank = longer between fires. Think of them like a battery - bigger ones crank out juice for longer but take longer to charge up. Getting tanks in your basement depends on how your basement is for getting big things into. You could also put multiple smaller tanks in and just plumb them all together and build a simple insulated box around them to keep the heat in. My 330 gallon tanks are 30"x9ft. 500's are 36"x9.5ft. 110's are 30"x4ft., 1000's are 40"x15ft. (roughly). The 330's roll around pretty easy even though being pretty heavy - with the help of some friends you could likely cobble up some timber ramps & roll one up on top of another to stack them. My stacked 330s are just sitting on my ordinary slab - I did put some plywood under the timbers they're sitting on.

If you can get storage into your basement, it's not as critical to get them super insulated - any heat loss will be into the building envelope so will go towards heating the house. My tanks are keeping my other-wise unheated basement warm right now, I cracked one end of my enclosure open since it was getting chilly down there. But you'd want to get them pretty well insulated for DHW in the summer if being used for that.


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## avc8130 (Jan 29, 2013)

bmblank said:


> With mine,i make a fire and load it up. Then i load it up every 3 our so hours, give or take depending on my schedule, until the storage is 180 or so. Then i forget about it until the storage is down to 110-120 or so, again, depending on schedule, usually a couple days in the winter, hopefully allot longer in the summer.


 
How many times would you load it up to get to 180?  1 reload?  2?

ac


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 29, 2013)

bmblank said:


> With mine,i make a fire and load it up. Then i load it up every 3 our so hours, give or take depending on my schedule, until the storage is 180 or so. Then i forget about it until the storage is down to 110-120 or so, again, depending on schedule, usually a couple days in the winter, hopefully allot longer in the summer.


 
another consideration is you have a big volume of storage (i remember reading somewhere that it was suggested to have at least 2-3 gallons of storage per 10sqft of heated area.  you far surpass this.) and are heating with radiant which is effective at low water temps, which is great.  i would think anybody with radiators or forced hot air would not be able to effectively heat with temps down to 110*.  might be more like 140-150?  is there anybody with some other than radiant that worked fine with fossil fuel furnace that is now having trouble supplying BTUs to heat home when below a certain supply temp?


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 29, 2013)

I have baseboard heaters and a few kick space units. I can heat my house when it's 0 out with storage down to 120. Oil will kick on at 118.

When it was 10 below 0 one of my zones lost 3 degrees from the setpoint with storage at 125. Though that zone never had enough oomph even with the oil running to heat the room fast.
Defiantly want to leave the tstats alone and not have night time setbacks with water temps that low. Otherwise it takes forever to raise the temp 5 degrees. I leave everything set a 68 now.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 29, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> I have baseboard heaters and a few kick space units. I can heat my house when it's 0 out with storage down to 120. Oil will kick on at 118.
> 
> When it was 10 below 0 one of my zones lost 3 degrees from the setpoint with storage at 125. Though that zone never had enough oomph even with the oil running to heat the room fast.
> Defiantly want to leave the tstats alone and not have night time setbacks with water temps that low. Otherwise it takes forever to raise the temp 5 degrees. I leave everything set a 68 now.


 
thats awesome to hear.  i was under impression that baseboard wasnt nearly as effective when below 150*.  you must be on the right track with constant set point.  good on yah.  my OB runs almost constantly when temps are in single digits just trying to maintain temp, let alone raise from nighttime setback.


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## willyswagon (Jan 29, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Defiantly want to leave the tstats alone and not have night time setbacks with water temps that low. Otherwise it takes forever to raise the temp 5 degrees. I leave everything set a 68 now.


 
That is what I have found as well. I have no storage at the present time. I was like everyone else in their first year, busy reading post on here, applying little changes.

By far the biggest difference here has been to leave the stats at 70*. The house is always warm, and the boiler doesn't have to do the double duty of bringing the house up by 5* plus making all the hot water that the "3 Shes" go through in the am. You would think there was a Prize for the most hot water used!!
No boiler should have to suffer with that

I still struggle with the storage vs no storage deal, but for now the no storage system seems to be serving my needs.


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## James Reimer (Jan 29, 2013)

willyswagon said:


> That is what I have found as well. I have no storage at the present time. I was like everyone else in their first year, busy reading post on here, applying little changes.
> 
> By far the biggest difference here has been to leave the stats at 70*. The house is always warm, and the boiler doesn't have to do the double duty of bringing the house up by 5* plus making all the hot water that the "3 Shes" go through in the am. You would think there was a Prize for the most hot water used!!
> No boiler should have to suffer with that
> ...


 
I feel I'm letting my boiler down when I take it easy on it.  It wants to work hard and pump out the btu's!  That's when it's happy happy happy.


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## gimmegas (Jan 29, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> It doesn't hold temp better but 1000 gallong contains twice as many btus as 500 gallons. Yes more wood for given delta t but can go longer between fires, prob almost twice as long. I am having some trouble locating a tank that big but i dont think they are much more money than 500 gal. Now moving a 1000 is also probably twice as more interesting than 500.


I like the longer b/w fires part. Then again, if they cool down enough it takes more fire to get them back to temp. Maple1 has a good answer to the big tank issue. Just hook a couple smaller ones together. Let me know if you find the big tank, Reaper.


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## gimmegas (Jan 29, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Bigger tank = longer between fires. Think of them like a battery - bigger ones crank out juice for longer but take longer to charge up. Getting tanks in your basement depends on how your basement is for getting big things into. You could also put multiple smaller tanks in and just plumb them all together and build a simple insulated box around them to keep the heat in. My 330 gallon tanks are 30"x9ft. 500's are 36"x9.5ft. 110's are 30"x4ft., 1000's are 40"x15ft. (roughly). The 330's roll around pretty easy even though being pretty heavy - with the help of some friends you could likely cobble up some timber ramps & roll one up on top of another to stack them. My stacked 330s are just sitting on my ordinary slab - I did put some plywood under the timbers they're sitting on.
> 
> If you can get storage into your basement, it's not as critical to get them super insulated - any heat loss will be into the building envelope so will go towards heating the house. My tanks are keeping my other-wise unheated basement warm right now, I cracked one end of my enclosure open since it was getting chilly down there. But you'd want to get them pretty well insulated for DHW in the summer if being used for that.


I like the battery analogy, Maple. I also like the idea of hooking a couple of smaller tanks together and maybe even stacking them (thereby reducing surface area to potential heat loss). Maybe two 330s (like yours) together might be enough for me? I just want to make sure I have room for the boiler,storage and a winters worth of wood. The plywood underneath them might be a good idea too, esp. for condensation. Any issue w/ that w/ your tanks? We don't want them to rust out. Thank you for those dimensions, too. It helps. I plan on a bulkhead thats 4 ft wide and maybe 6 1/2 ft tall. Should be able to get them in there w/o too much of an issue.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 30, 2013)

Yeah its just a big thermal battery and with decent enough insulation it comes down to btus in vs btus out.


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## maple1 (Jan 30, 2013)

gimmegas said:


> I like the battery analogy, Maple. I also like the idea of hooking a couple of smaller tanks together and maybe even stacking them (thereby reducing surface area to potential heat loss). Maybe two 330s (like yours) together might be enough for me? I just want to make sure I have room for the boiler,storage and a winters worth of wood. The plywood underneath them might be a good idea too, esp. for condensation. Any issue w/ that w/ your tanks? We don't want them to rust out. Thank you for those dimensions, too. It helps. I plan on a bulkhead thats 4 ft wide and maybe 6 1/2 ft tall. Should be able to get them in there w/o too much of an issue.


 
The plywood was a spur of the moment thought, I had some pieces of 3/4 kicking around from a shed project & thought it might spread the footprint a bit. No idea if it accomplished anything though.

I have seen no condensation, and thought I very well might because I also have an improvised DHW preheater circuit stuffed inside the storage enclosure consisting of about two rolls of 3/4 pex, first coiled a couple loops around the bottom, then a couple loops up around between the tanks, then a whole roll laying on top of the top tank. Fresh cold DHW comes from my well right into the bottom of this circuit and out the top. If I get no condensation off that, I don't think any will be seen under any other circumstances. That circuit works very good, it was an experiment that paid off while I had my sidearm circuit apart for quite a while getting it rearranged. Haven't measured the temp rise across it but plan too.

Before I decided on the 330's, I also considered plumbing together 6 -110's. It would have been a bit of a pain plumbing all those tanks together, but the 110s are very easy to handle & fit into tight spaces & arrange how you want them. Plus they would have been cheaper overall at $90/ea compared to $350/ea for the 330's. I went with the 330s because I decided I could get them to just fit where I wanted them to, with about a half inch to spare on each side.


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## willyswagon (Jan 30, 2013)

While storage is not a must, I'm sure it would be convenient over the next day and a half where temps are going from -5*C  (26 *F) now, to a high of 12*C ( 57*F) tomorrow am, then dropped back to -9 *C(16* F) for Friday.

Back to small hot fires. It looks like this may require relighting the boiler at some point.
I'll have to think about this as I haven't done it since the third week of november!!


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## KenLockett (Jan 30, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> thats awesome to hear. i was under impression that baseboard wasnt nearly as effective when below 150*. you must be on the right track with constant set point. good on yah. my OB runs almost constantly when temps are in single digits just trying to maintain temp, let alone raise from nighttime setback.


 
Due to my 3-way Termovar tempering valve, I get no circulation of my boiler supply below about 160 DegF.  In my case I actually find this kind of an inconvenience.  Would rather be able to use the hot water supply from the wood boiler below 140 DegF.


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## KenLockett (Jan 30, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> thats awesome to hear. i was under impression that baseboard wasnt nearly as effective when below 150*. you must be on the right track with constant set point. good on yah. my OB runs almost constantly when temps are in single digits just trying to maintain temp, let alone raise from nighttime setback.


 
I to dare not use setback when the temps get into the single digits.  Loss of wood boiler output thus allowing the temp to drop is a no no.  Takes forever to get temp back up.  I to have been using 68 DegF as a low limit on setback from 70 DegF during the day.


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## gimmegas (Jan 30, 2013)

maple1 said:


> The plywood was a spur of the moment thought, I had some pieces of 3/4 kicking around from a shed project & thought it might spread the footprint a bit. No idea if it accomplished anything though.
> 
> I have seen no condensation, and thought I very well might because I also have an improvised DHW preheater circuit stuffed inside the storage enclosure consisting of about two rolls of 3/4 pex, first coiled a couple loops around the bottom, then a couple loops up around between the tanks, then a whole roll laying on top of the top tank. Fresh cold DHW comes from my well right into the bottom of this circuit and out the top. If I get no condensation off that, I don't think any will be seen under any other circumstances. That circuit works very good, it was an experiment that paid off while I had my sidearm circuit apart for quite a while getting it rearranged. Haven't measured the temp rise across it but plan too.
> 
> Before I decided on the 330's, I also considered plumbing together 6 -110's. It would have been a bit of a pain plumbing all those tanks together, but the 110s are very easy to handle & fit into tight spaces & arrange how you want them. Plus they would have been cheaper overall at $90/ea compared to $350/ea for the 330's. I went with the 330s because I decided I could get them to just fit where I wanted them to, with about a half inch to spare on each side.


Maple,  I was thinking they were six sided, not cylindrical, so stacking would be like putting boxes on top of each other.  Ha ha ha ha ha ha.  Jokes on me. Did you have to build the cradle for them? From what I can tell, the install was an adventure but apparently from the outcome you did an outstanding job. Bravo! OK, so if I want to find 330 gal tanks where do I go?


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## maple1 (Jan 31, 2013)

Don't know where you are or the local situation there - I got mine at a scrapyard an hour away from me. They had a mountain of them of all shapes & sizes.

I built a cradle out of 6x6, with some 4x4 & metal strapping thrown in along with lots of silicone for a glue where the tanks meet the 6x6. Did some wood carving with my ms170 to get the round tanks to fit the straight 6x6. Think there are some pics in my build thread. That's the way I went - some just take their tanks to a welding shop & get them welded one on top of the other to make one big unit. Some of the vendors/advertisers on here get that done & sell them that way, ready to plumb in.


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## McKraut (Jan 31, 2013)

Coal Reaper said:


> Bob please share with us how often you are tending fires.


 
I load the boiler when I leave for work at 7:30AM and again when I get home at 10PM. When the temp gets below 15 degrees I usually have to add an extra load


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## gimmegas (Jan 31, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Don't know where you are or the local situation there - I got mine at a scrapyard an hour away from me. They had a mountain of them of all shapes & sizes.
> 
> I built a cradle out of 6x6, with some 4x4 & metal strapping thrown in along with lots of silicone for a glue where the tanks meet the 6x6. Did some wood carving with my ms170 to get the round tanks to fit the straight 6x6. Think there are some pics in my build thread. That's the way I went - some just take their tanks to a welding shop & get them welded one on top of the other to make one big unit. Some of the vendors/advertisers on here get that done & sell them that way, ready to plumb in.


I'm currently in VA, but will be moving to ME in another 1-2 yrs. Scrapyard, eh, outstanding! I'll poke around. I'm sure I'll find something. Not something I need right now, anyway,just trying to get things lined up for when I do. How about your boiler. Where did you get that from? Is there a dealer near you in NS?


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## maple1 (Feb 1, 2013)

No dealer near me. Got mine from Smokeless Heat in Pa. - great to deal with.


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## chuck172 (Feb 1, 2013)

gimmegas said:


> Bigger tank = longer between fires


I would like to add Bigger tank=Longer between fires + Longer fires.
More storage doesn't add to efficiency, just convenience. You have to burn twice as long to heat double the storage.


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## 91LMS (Feb 1, 2013)

i can't help but feel that my system lacks in efficiency w/o having storage.


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## maple1 (Feb 1, 2013)

IMO there are pretty big potential gains in efficiency in adding storage to a non-gassifying boiler, if the boiler has decent heat transfer (e.g. fire tubes). If I had a decent non-gassifier and wanted to do big changes in stages, I'd install storage first, then swap boilers after evaluating performance with the storage addition. I think the bigger performance jump would be in going to storage, than the second jump to gassifying - IF you have a decent non-gassifier, and PARTICULARLY if it currently satisfies your heat demand well. If I had tried that with my old boiler though, it never would have had the extra heat to put to storage in the heating season.


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## Fred61 (Feb 1, 2013)

Think of all the "low grade" heat that is just put into the atmosphere in the world. Not hot enough to do anything with it so we put it in our lakes, rivers and into the air with cooling towers. When a boiler idles, there is a certain amount of low grade heat that goes out the stack, in the cooling down process and the heating process that brings the fire back up to and past the boiler temperature. And in fact it robs heat from the boiler tubes until the fire is hotter than the boiler. To me, that is waste heat except for some that radiates into the living space if the boiler is in the home. I believe there is a fair amount that goes up the stack.
Can we measure the difference if we have storage and burn longer and hotter? Don't know, but there is more waste without storage.


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## ihookem (Feb 1, 2013)

Some things I wonder about. With storage you run it super hot and then let it cool down to outside temps if it's outside. It may be -10 F . Is this harder on the boiler than not hving storage and keeping the boiler hot form Oct. to April? One poster said he had no storage for his gassifier for 18 years. This is a long time for a boiler I wonder is it is less stress on a boiler if it stays hot all winter. Just a thought.


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## maple1 (Feb 1, 2013)

That's a good question.

I've only been running mine in heating season so far, in my basement. When it 'goes cold', it goes down to around usually 100 or so. The lowest it would go is around 60 or so, that's about what my basement is - when it goes really cold in the summer, it will be a bit warmer than that. I was wondering about this with mine - but this is the way it is designed to be used, so I'm putting all my faith in the designers. Mine does spec that storage is a must - maybe those that are designed to run without storage might have a concern when adding storage? But I don't think there is a huge difference in construction techniques across brands - although I haven't seen the insides of any, and have no clue about material differences between them.

Also, when firing, I don't think they run any hotter, or 'super hot' as you say, than boilers without storage - they just run longer. I think the main thing to worry about would be to have good return temp protection, and decent water quality.


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## mr.fixit (Feb 1, 2013)

A couple things I think are important if you do have storage;

You should have enough storage capacity to carry your heatload for a long enough time to make it worthwhile.Like charging storage once a day or every other day.

You should have a big enough boiler to charge the storage in a reasonable amount of time to fit a persons schedule.

I have only 500gallons,so it won't carry my load to long,but it works nice in the spring and fall.This time of year not so much. The boiler runs pretty much steady,because it's not oversized.

As far as wood consumption goes,not so sure more storage(or any at all)would help me with current sized boiler.
The past few days I have had the storage valves turned off just to see how things go.It does go into idle once and a while,but it doesn't really smoke a lot. I think I use slightly less wood doing it this way.
With the storage turned on,seems like the boiler runs and runs and unless the firebox is kept full,the output is lower and storage temps don't rise with zones steadily calling for heat. With storage off,seems like a load of wood goes a long way. I don't know,maybe it's just me.

I suppose the thing to do would be to weigh the wood loads a week or so each way and compare to heating degree days.

In any event,not sure storage helps too much if the boiler is closely matched to the heatload.

I think the ideal would be modulating output like the pellet boilers,but but you can only turn the air down so far.
Maybe the thing to try would be throttling the output(nozzle size and air)to match demand more so it can run steady with good gasification at different outputs. Probably not as simple as it seems.


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## gimmegas (Feb 1, 2013)

maple1 said:


> No dealer near me. Got mine from Smokeless Heat in Pa. - great to deal with.


OK. Will check them out.


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## gimmegas (Feb 1, 2013)

chuck172 said:


> I would like to add Bigger tank=Longer between fires + Longer fires.
> More storage doesn't add to efficiency, just convenience. You have to burn twice as long to heat double the storage.


I'm getting the idea that matching the boiler size to the size of the area you're heating is more important than the storage, although as you say there is the convenience factor.  Otherwise it may be equivocal? Not really like you are burning less wood w/ storage, correct?


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## velvetfoot (Feb 1, 2013)

mr.fixit said:


> I think the ideal would be modulating output like the pellet boilers,but but you can only turn the air down so far.Maybe the thing to try would be throttling the output(nozzle size and air)to match demand more so it can run steady with good gasification at different outputs. Probably not as simple as it seems



Is that what the lambda units do?


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## McKraut (Feb 1, 2013)

mr.fixit said:


> A couple things I think are important if you do have storage;
> 
> You should have enough storage capacity to carry your heatload for a long enough time to make it worthwhile.Like charging storage once a day or every other day.
> 
> ...


 When you have your storage valves turned off, how often do you have to fill your boiler? How big an area are you heating?

 Your signature looks like you're heating with an Eko and you have 45,000 gallons of storage. I had to look at that twice.....


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## McKraut (Feb 1, 2013)

mr.fixit said:


> A couple things I think are important if you do have storage;
> 
> You should have enough storage capacity to carry your heatload for a long enough time to make it worthwhile.Like charging storage once a day or every other day.
> 
> ...


 
 I just read the last line of your signature. You're not kidding. I just got 190 gallons of heating oil delivered and paid almost $800. It's the first time in 3 years that I've had to order oil. If it wasn't for my woodburning boiler, I would have a lot less money in the bank. With this old house I figure I save at least $4000 a year.


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## mr.fixit (Feb 1, 2013)

From what I know the lambda units alter the primary and secondary air on the fly.
I think a pellet boiler alters the feed rate of the fuel going in.

With a wood boiler,I envisioned some way of throttling the fuel via adjusting the  size of the nozzle opening and the air settings on the fly.
It would take some redneck engineering I guess.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 1, 2013)

It's too bad pellets can be so expensive compared to wood-the boiler can be as controlable as oil.


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## mr.fixit (Feb 1, 2013)

McKraut said:


> When you have your storage valves turned off, how often do you have to fill your boiler? How big an area are you heating?
> 
> Your signature looks like you're heating with an Eko and you have 45,000 gallons of storage. I had to look at that twice.....


I probably fill it 3 times a day,but there is usually some left in there. With the storage turned on the the boiler is always completely empty(when reloading) because it keeps running  to heat storage and loads till it fuels out.

I heat around 4000 sq ft in 3 separate buildings(4 if you count the garage that the boiler is in) so a pretty good load for a 40.


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## Duetech (Feb 3, 2013)

If you can go to an outside gasifier you might want to look at Portage and Main. The Optimizer 250 is a gasifier that has its own storage built in like a regular OWB but burns like like a gasifier (very little smoke), shuts down when heat demand is met and is very efficient compared to an OWB. They have larger models if you need one but the 250 is rated for up to *5000* sq ft. Outdoors the mess is kept out of the house but the wood has to have special protection from the elements to be prime for use in a gasifier.


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## chuck172 (Feb 4, 2013)

lately I've turned down my boiler aquastat to aprox. 180/160. I've been using my 500 gallon storage as sort of a buffer tank.
The boiler cycles on and off often. I used to always keep the boiler aquastat on the highest setting. The storage would be 195*.
I know the boiler will require more frequent cleaning, but the wood usage has dropped. The system seems to run very even and efficient.


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## KenLockett (Feb 4, 2013)

chuck172 said:


> lately I've turned down my boiler aquastat to aprox. 180/160. I've been using my 500 gallon storage as sort of a buffer tank.
> The boiler cycles on and off often. I used to always keep the boiler aquastat on the highest setting. The storage would be 195*.
> I know the boiler will require more frequent cleaning, but the wood usage has dropped. The system seems to run very even and efficient.


 
Chuck, here is a trend of my TarmSolo Plus 40 over a six hour window. My boiler temperature setpoint is set at approximately 186 DegF. The yellow and red pins trend the idle and firing periods respectively while the green pen is trending the actual boiler temp. Even with the swing between the firing and idle cycles I am able to maintain the home temperature at almost 70 DegF dead-on with temps down to around 0 DegF. More idle/firing cycles over a 24 hours period when the outside temps are colder obviously.

Ken


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## Clarkbug (Feb 4, 2013)

Ken,

I think its awesome that you are using a seat of WonderWare to trend your boiler.


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## KenLockett (Feb 4, 2013)

Clarkbug said:


> Ken,
> 
> I think its awesome that you are using a seat of WonderWare to trend your boiler.


 

Thanks.  Got a pretty cool setup at this point.  As I mentioned to you before I have an Automation Direct Click Micro-PLC with RS-232/485 capability (two ports) interfacing to the Wonderware HMI using a generic Modbus RTU driver.  Was able to finally interface to my boiler supply TC using a Tx Controller also from Automation Direct with RS-485 communications.  Anyhow, the first Tx Controller I bought I returned for the relay version (remember you sent me the data sheet on the solid state output variety that I could never get to work) and I use strictly for the alarm contacts.  With the Click PLC and floating point capability I am actually able to detect when a reload is required based upon temperature versus firing profiles that I generated based upon the firing cycles.  I generate audible alarms when I begin each idle cycle and a different audible when a reload is required.  Still tweaking the prediction curves but is working very well.  Being able to trend the supply Tx provides amazing insight with regard to combustion patterns.  I can now tell from the trends when I have extended idle cycles and thus how best to load.  I can even gauge reduced heat output due to bridging.  Have not had to restart a fire since we had that warm weather over a week ago.  I will post some pics when I get a chance.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Feb 6, 2013)

I would never be without storage for all of the reasons listed prior to my post. Having used my gasifier with storage for 5 years now I just wanted to summarize the benefits of using storage:

1.) Allows the boiler to burn WOT (wide open throttle) for a more efficient/cleaner burn. When a boiler idles it is less efficient and produces more emissions.
2.) Allows the user to go much longer between burns and to make fires when they want to vs. when they have to. I am able to heat my 1000 gallon water battery up to 190-195 Friday night and return home Sunday night to find the house only a few degrees lower than the set temp. of 73F. However, the storage allows me to heat my 4,000 sq.  ft and hot tub for the entire weekend without using a drop of propane!
3.) Reduction in the amount of wood used per season.
4.) Allows me to provide for all my DHW in the summer time for 5-6 days on only ONE 5 hour fire!
5.) Shortens the ROI of the entire system.
6.) Allows the integration of solar thermal in the future thus reducing wood usage even more!

Many of the wood boilers mentioned on hearth.com are made in Europe and Europe has been using this technology much longer than most of us in North America. The fact that most of the systems in Europe use storage (and many use solar thermal) tells me that storage is very important.


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## peakbagger (Feb 6, 2013)

I am currently going through "withdrawal" due to a temporary lack of storage due to a problem with one of my components. I still can heat the house in the evening with the boiler unless I want to run the boiler with its damper closed and turn it into a smoke dragon I have to put up with overheating the house. I don't have the time in the AM to get it fired back up again, so the oil boiler is running during the day. I have used more oil in the last two weeks than I have in a year. 

I heated with a wood stove and oil for 15 plus years prior to the wood boiler and storage and boy is it easy to get spoiled to have working thermostats and the need to only run the boiler once a day instead of frequent trips to the wood stove. I use more wood than before but up until the recent problem I really didnt use any oil.


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## stee6043 (Feb 7, 2013)

EffectaBoilerUser (USA) said:


> I would never be without storage for all of the reasons listed prior to my post. Having used my gasifier with storage for 5 years now I just wanted to summarize the benefits of using storage:
> 
> 3.) Reduction in the amount of wood used per season.
> 
> 5.) Shortens the ROI of the entire system.


 
Point three might be true but it would depend entirely on the application. Adding storage to a properly sized, properly operated existing gasser system may not reduce wood consumption in a measurable way. Adding storage to a grossly oversized boiler with a massive firbox may indeed provide a measurable reduction in wood consumption.

Point five is flat out wrong. There is no way that adding significant cost to a new system for the PRIMARY purpose of added burning convenience is going to accelerate ROI. It's going to extend it, considerably.


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## Coal Reaper (Feb 7, 2013)

stee6043 said:


> Point three might be true but it would depend entirely on the application. Adding storage to a properly sized, properly operated existing gasser system may not reduce wood consumption in a measurable way. Adding storage to a grossly oversized boiler with a massive firbox may indeed provide a measurable reduction in wood consumption.
> 
> Point five is flat out wrong. There is no way that adding significant cost to a new system for the PRIMARY purpose of added burning convenience is going to accelerate ROI. It's going to extend it, considerably.


 
five COULD MAYBE be true if using storage for DHW in summer instead of fossils or electric.  gotta figure out if summer saving warrants extra cost.


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Feb 7, 2013)

Sorry about that on point 5.

Points 4, 5 and 6 all go together. 

I use my system with storage 12 months out of a year and thus by using it all summer I am able to reduce my hot water bill by approx. $250 (6 months at $40-$50 per month for a family of 4). The (2) 500 gallon tanks cost me $250 each and thus in 3 years (this covers the cost of the additional piping also) I have saved enough in propane costs for summer hot water to pay for the 2 tanks. In addition, I have been able to use this storage for the 6 months of winter heating season which lets me reap the benefits of items 1, 2 and 3.

This summer I will be adding a solar thermal system to my Effecta boiler with water batteries and will be able to make FREE hot water when the sun is shining. See attached drawing.

Hope this helps in clarifying the benefits of water batteries (thermal storage).

Brian


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## kopeck (Feb 7, 2013)

I guess it's all about your setup (heat load) and what works for your schedule.

My boiler is the smallest Tarm makes, I use it with 820 gallons of storage.  I have an old farm house that's been renovated so it's insulated, not super insulated but we're talking R-20ish walls, plus new windows and doors.

With this setup, during the prime heating season (Dec-March) I load up twice a day.  On really cold days I usually have to throw and extra armful in before I go to bed, on warm days I can get away with on fire a day but those are the extremes in that season.

I could have gone bigger on every thing and probably avoided starting fires as much but I don't think it's that big of a deal and I save my self some cost up front.  Either way I would be burning the same amount of wood.

I think I would have liked to try a 1000 gallon tank if I was going to do it again, just to have a little more head room but the 820 takes care of my work day and then some so I can't complain.

Needless to say I like storage.  It also gives you opportunities to try other things, like I'm debating installing a Geyser to keep my water temp up for DHW during the summer.  Solar would be another option.

K


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## Clarkbug (Feb 9, 2013)

KenLockett said:


> Thanks. Got a pretty cool setup at this point. As I mentioned to you before I have an Automation Direct Click Micro-PLC with RS-232/485 capability (two ports) interfacing to the Wonderware HMI using a generic Modbus RTU driver. Was able to finally interface to my boiler supply TC using a Tx Controller also from Automation Direct with RS-485 communications. Anyhow, the first Tx Controller I bought I returned for the relay version (remember you sent me the data sheet on the solid state output variety that I could never get to work) and I use strictly for the alarm contacts. With the Click PLC and floating point capability I am actually able to detect when a reload is required based upon temperature versus firing profiles that I generated based upon the firing cycles. I generate audible alarms when I begin each idle cycle and a different audible when a reload is required. Still tweaking the prediction curves but is working very well. Being able to trend the supply Tx provides amazing insight with regard to combustion patterns. I can now tell from the trends when I have extended idle cycles and thus how best to load. I can even gauge reduced heat output due to bridging. Have not had to restart a fire since we had that warm weather over a week ago. I will post some pics when I get a chance.


 
It sounds like you and NoFossil could collaborate on a few things. He may have some helpful insight on the prediction curves if you wanted to pick his brain.  Glad to hear that so far its working out for you!


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## Floydian (Feb 10, 2013)

Another benefit of storage: No fire overnight and no fire when no one is home. Peace of mind and high approval rating with the wife.

Noah


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## Fred61 (Feb 10, 2013)

Floydian said:


> Another benefit of storage: No fire overnight and no fire when no one is home. Peace of mind and high approval rating with the wife.
> 
> Noah


 
 That benefit rates very high in this houshold too. There has been no overnight fire here for 4 years and only two or three during the day before 4:00 PM. One of those was when I used hot water for about an hour to de-ice a flight of concrete steps with a water hose.


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