# floor registers, illegal or not?



## leff13 (Feb 13, 2014)

I plan on getting a harman p43 for my 900 square foot home. I know it will heat my first floor up great, i need a way to get the heat upstairs, from what i read i finally understand the process of cool air has to be pushed down for the heat to rise, i also read everywhere that cutting floor registers is highly illegal and not fire safe. i have 2 ceiling fans in the first floor where the stove will be, if i cut 2 vents in the ceiling will that allow enough cool air from upstairs to travel downstairs and will the heat naturally rise better or will you need another set of vents to allow the air back up, im wondering if the ceiling fans will help either push or pull the air to help, any input to clarify this topic please please


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## leff13 (Feb 13, 2014)

i would also like to add i build manufactured houses for a living, i remember building a 40 box hotel and everything had to be firesafe, drywall, doors, caulking, etc.. i remember installing these collars that fit inside the ductwork to from what i understand close at a certain temp, but they were really thing metal, wondering if installing something like this inside a fireproof box in the ceiling would be approved or not? just an idea i guess, plus i could get these at my work for cost!!


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## pen (Feb 14, 2014)

As much as I commend you for trying to make sure things will work at the same time the unit is installed, I would have to recommend that you wait and see if you have a problem heating things before you go and make holes in the floor.

Additionally, yes, the fire dampers you mention do make floor penetrations safer,,,, however I'll reiterate, I'd make darn sure you need the floor registers before putting them in.  

My biggest concern, even with fire dampers installed, is that after cutting the holes in your floors you may still not get the heat movement you are hoping for. 

Again, don't fix something like this unless you know it is broke!


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

pen said:


> As much as I commend you for trying to make sure things will work at the same time the unit is installed, I would have to recommend that you wait and see if you have a problem heating things before you go and make holes in the floor.
> 
> Additionally, yes, the fire dampers you mention do make floor penetrations safer,,,, however I'll reiterate, I'd make darn sure you need the floor registers before putting them in.
> 
> ...


yeah i totally understand and that's great advice, i just would love to know everything before going through the expense of installing a stove, better to be safe than sorry i guess, i'm hoping to not have to hack the floors and ceilings to install vents, i would try the stove first to see if the heat would rise naturally im just afraid it wont


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## St_Earl (Feb 14, 2014)

outside of the code question (which i assume is best answered by which local authority has jurisdiction and/or your home insurance provider), and pen's advice above, i'm inclined to think that blowing cold air down directly through vents would work very well.
having the vent somewhere above the stove room so the cold/returning air displaces the warm air to the rest of the house.
and not only will you be pushing cold air down, the back side of the fan will at the same time help pull the warm air (that is already being pushed/displaced) up your stairs and any other paths available.
you could run the fan at a very low rate to keep sound and felt breezes to a bare minimum.
over time it should pretty much even out temps throughout.
theoretically.

having a fan in or on the vent would also make it a more passive feeling airflow instead of having to feel the wind from a ceiling fan if you didn't happen to want that all the time.


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## Charles1981 (Feb 14, 2014)

The previous owner of my house installed floor registers over the stove from the basement to the first floor. With the ceiling fan on pushing cold air down my circular stair case (about 6-7 feet away from the stove), there is a huge column of hot air that comes up the floor registers. That being said he didn't install fire dampers in them. They aren't up to code. It is something I have to fix. However if put a piece of single ply TP over the register it almost shoots to the ceiling if it catches the draft just right.


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

here is my house layout, with the only way of heat to rise is through the stairway which is in the kitchen blocked by a partition wall, so perhaps cutting a vent through the wall with a little corner fan to blow the heat back into the stove room to either pull the air from the stairway essentially letting warm air travel up or the opposite pulling air from the stove room up the stairs?


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## Charles1981 (Feb 14, 2014)

I would install the stove first and then determine what changes are necessary after. And you always want to push cold air down towards the stove. You might be surprised at the heat distribution with no radical changes...or you may have to install registers that meet code (well, you don't have to, but you really should). And it is even possible floor registers could not make a big difference.


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

Charles1981 said:


> I would install the stove first and then determine what changes are necessary after. And you always want to push cold air down towards the stove. You might be surprised at the heat distribution with no radical changes...or you may have to install registers that meet code (well, you don't have to, but you really should). And it is even possible floor registers could not make a big difference.


thanks!


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## alternativeheat (Feb 14, 2014)

leff13 said:


> thanks!


 With a P43, the stove room will be quite warm. If you run the ceiling fan in that room it should aid to push warm air through the house. You won't need a large duct over the stove for returning cool air from upstairs. I would try it without that first. I used to have that in my house.when we remodeled they got taken out and really it didn't seem to matter much with blower on the P61. My old coal stove ya, it was radiant only.


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## Nick of PA (Feb 14, 2014)

I've heard on this forum a few times about how cutting holes from the first to second floor could be a fire hazard if a fire starts around the pellet stove on the first floor.  Wouldn't a staircase leading upstairs have that effect anyway?- not to mention this is a much larger "hole" than two small vents.


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## Jigger (Feb 14, 2014)

Before I moved I had a 2 story house. My pellet stove was in one end of the house and the stairway to go up to the second floor was on the oppsite end. My house was a little over 1700 sq.ft. I never put any type of register in the floors at all. I just the air current in the house do it's own thing. The upstairs was a little cooler then the first floor. But not by much only a couple of degrees. Made it perfect sleeping temp for me. If I sat at the bottom of the stairs I could feel the cooler air coming down the stairs.


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## MCPO (Feb 14, 2014)

Legal or not , in most homes where there exists only a single width stairway to the basement pellet stove , floor registers will almost always be needed to effectively move the excess heat  out of the basement and up into the first floor.  Of course , without floor register (s) some heat will go up the stairway and some cool air underneath will return but it`s minimal compared to what you can do compared to direct heat blowing up thru a floor register (s)  and utilizing another register or the stairway for the return of cold air.
I have a return register at the end of a hallway with a fan under the register pulling cold air down into the basement. The stove distribution fan blows the heat out the front and into a 6" flexible aluminum duct up into a register between the living room and kitchen /dining area. I can keep the basement and first floor at even temps all winter long.  Some heat goes up  the second floor stairway to keep it at 60-62 .
The major point being that you must get the stove`s heat directly up into the main floor and usually the only way to do this is thru the floor.


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## MarkF48 (Feb 14, 2014)

I have an 1800's house that originally had floor registers to the second floor. Originally when I bought the house it had a Crawford 21 coal "furnace" in the cellar, so the floor registers were likely needed to get heat to the upper most floors. After some assorted renovations the registers were closed up when the hot air oil furnace with duct work to individual rooms was put in. Fast forward to about three years ago and a pellet stove was installed on the first floor. Thought about opening the registers back up, but after using the pellet stove a while, found the upstairs was comfortable without the registers. I do have a stairway that's pretty open to the second floor. 
I wouldn't cut in any floor registers before giving it a go without.
My cellar however now sits at about 42 deg F and I wish I had a way to get some heat down there.


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## moey (Feb 14, 2014)

floor registers == noise

Think long and hard before you chop..


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## Polar Bear (Feb 14, 2014)

I have a bungalow with 1500 sq/ft per floor. The pellet stove is in the basement angled in the corner facing the stairs about 30 ft away. The stove heats the whole basement and roughly 2/3 of the upstairs with only our master bedroom not getting much heat with our door closed (which I like). If you all sleep with your doors open, it should get there. My layout also has some tough corners as yours does also. Although, I should add when I built my house, I built it along the lines of being an R-2000 home.

I have toyed with the idea of floor registers and I'm very glad I didn't, as the stove is in the rec room with the pool table below the master, and I don't think the wife would appreciate the noise of pool, beer, and hockey games


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 14, 2014)

If openings between floors is a fire hazard then your staircase would be a GIANT fire hazard   .I dont think starcases are against code and i have 2 staircases from the first to the second floor.


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

i.m really thinking about cutting 2 registers in both rooms, one with a product i found online, its a register that has a fan in it to force the cold air down from the bedrooms with the other vent to allow the heat to rise. fire code or not, if my house is on fire i doubt these registers will be my biggest problem as others mentioned i have a staircase which would allow more smoke and heat to rise then a a 6 by 10 floor register


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## pen (Feb 14, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> If openings between floors is a fire hazard then your staircase would be a GIANT fire hazard   .I dont think starcases are against code and i have 2 staircases from the first to the second floor.



With that in mind, the additional openings would increase the spread of things, more smoke etc.  In a living room, dining room, kitchen, where the rooms are often open to a stairwell I'd be less worried about a register.  

However, I wouldn't consider putting one in a bedroom.  Not only could that be a huge turnoff if selling the house in the future, if smoke is in the rest of the house bedroom doors can still be closed and help slow things a bit while a regress window gets used to find safety.  With a register in the bedroom, the idea of smoke having an easier path into that sleeping area just doesn't settle well.  Also, 'noises' from the bedrooms easily moving to other parts of the house is a turn off.

In all though, a good many people have made these openings and made increased risks just to find that they don't help any.  When that happens, it's a real bummer.

We all choose to take risks day in and day out.  Always good to have a discussion like this to point out pro-s and con-s so people can make better choices.


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

or do you guys think the stair way will act as a return back to the stove pulling cold air down, im confused on if i should focus on getting cold air down or heat up the stairs?


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## pen (Feb 14, 2014)

leff13 said:


> or do you guys think the stair way will act as a return back to the stove pulling cold air down, im confused on if i should focus on getting cold air down or heat up the stairs?



Try a small fan to help push the heavy cold air down.  The lighter warm air wants to come up and will be aided by the push of cold at the base.


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

pen said:


> Try a small fan to help push the heavy cold air down.  The lighter warm air wants to come up and will be aided by the push of cold at the base.


well with the stairway being the only way to get either heat up or down which has the priority? if i push the air down towards to the stove how will hot air get up without registers?


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## pen (Feb 14, 2014)

cold air goes down next to the stairs, hot air follows up along the head space.  Keep the fan low aiming right down the stairs


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## Polar Bear (Feb 14, 2014)

Try before you buy.

You most likely won't need anything.


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## pen (Feb 14, 2014)

My stairs from the basement run into a foyer.  If I want to mess this convection cycle up royally it will happen by turning on the ceiling fan in the foyer.  

My stove is at the base of the stairwell and makes it's own loop quite well so I haven't had to use the fan to push cold air here, but many others have reported good success with it.  

I like to use the IR temp gun to see the difference in the stairwell.  The top is around 20 degrees warmer than the wall down near the steps where the cold air is coming down.


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

guess i will have to see what works best, who knows maybe enough heat will rise to keep the rooms a comfortable 60-65, after all im only in my bedroom to sleep, or apparently to make babies but you catch my drift, lol..im hoping no drastic measures are needed, only time will tell. thanks for all the input


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## leff13 (Feb 14, 2014)

http://www.amazon.com/Suncourt-TW10...cp_2_YRV6?ie=UTF8&refRID=042NZQ3M6PP7G87A6ZGC

has anyone ever heard or used this, one of the reviews said they used it like i plan on using it by cutting a hole in the wall that will lead up my staircase that's in the same room as my stove will be, little pricey but beats what i had in mind


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## St_Earl (Feb 14, 2014)

a focused fan like a vornado or honeywell helps keep the cool air down low from interfering with the returning warm air up high.
you just have to factor in all your variables for your own unique solution.
eventually you'll get it dialed in.


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## St_Earl (Feb 14, 2014)

leff13 said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Suncourt-TW10...cp_2_YRV6?ie=UTF8&refRID=042NZQ3M6PP7G87A6ZGC
> 
> has anyone ever heard or used this, one of the reviews said they used it like i plan on using it by cutting a hole in the wall that will lead up my staircase that's in the same room as my stove will be, little pricey but beats what i had in mind


i like the flexibility of using my vornados.
even though they now stay in the same places all winter.
i didn't have to cut any holes. and in summer i use them elsewhere.

i'd hate to cut a hole and then be unhappy with either the noise or performance of the fan. or just unhappy with it in that fixed position.


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 14, 2014)

I've tried all kinds of fan types and placements and nothing works nearly a good as natural convection. The trick is to run the stove on the lowest setting that matches the heat loss of the house. Time is your friend when doing this and the longer the stove runs the better it works. I'm sort of limited on changing feed rates and fan speeds on my Quadrafire CB1200i But I have learned how to anticipate based on outside conditions.

And no, no one has ever been able to provide a reference that says it is a code violation to cut holes for heat registers between floors.


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## St_Earl (Feb 14, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> I've tried all kinds of fan types and placements and nothing works nearly a good as natural convection. The trick is to run the stove on the lowest setting that matches the heat loss of the house. Time is your friend when doing this and the longer the stove runs the better it works. I'm sort of limited on changing feed rates and fan speeds on my Quadrafire CB1200i But I have learned how to anticipate based on outside conditions.
> 
> And no, no one has ever been able to provide a reference that says it is a code violation to cut holes for heat registers between floors.




i'd love it if my house worked that way.
but the fact is, that if i do nothing, the back bedroom will absolutely be far too cold.
everyone's layout is different.

i just help the "natural" convection along a bit.


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## hoverfly (Feb 15, 2014)

900 sqft house?  I would start with some celling fans if possible.


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## leff13 (Feb 15, 2014)

hoverfly said:


> 900 sqft house?  I would start with some celling fans if possible.


i have one where the stove will be and in the kitchen where the blower will blow the hot air


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## chken (Feb 15, 2014)

leff13 said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Suncourt-TW10...cp_2_YRV6?ie=UTF8&refRID=042NZQ3M6PP7G87A6ZGC
> 
> has anyone ever heard or used this, one of the reviews said they used it like i plan on using it by cutting a hole in the wall that will lead up my staircase that's in the same room as my stove will be, little pricey but beats what i had in mind


Just be aware that the faster these little fans are, the more wattage and the louder they are. Also, I would do a little experiment. Turn off the upstairs heat, and see how much colder it gets compared to downstairs. Many houses, if there are no drafts, the differential is only 10 degrees or so. If that's the case, then a 70 downstairs might result in a 60 upstairs. How much warmer do you need your bedrooms? Most people prefer them to be cooler to help sleeping. Using a little oil to raise that 60 to a comfortable level like 65 at night might not be too bad. Also, for that bathroom, you might be better off with an electric spot heater that you turn on when you are actually in it. A little electricity and a little oil might not be such a bad tradeoff over having to cut holes in walls and floors. Just something to consider. As a few have noted, install your stove and see how well it heats your space before doing anything drastic.


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## DOLLARBILL (Feb 15, 2014)

In my Parents Home years ago we had floor registers no problem funny thing today everything is a fire hazard, not safe to eat ,guns should be banned, the list goes on and on, if my upstairs was not comfortable without them I would not give a second thought to installing a few but thats just me


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## daffonce (Feb 15, 2014)

like a lot of people have said try it out first.  I have 2500 sq ft, i have an xxv.  downstairs 72 upstairs at the end of the hall is 69.  I ave a small corner fan that blows heat from the stove room (in my eat in kitchen area) into my foyer.  natural convection does the rest.  let he stove run for a day or two before any canges are made.  a day or two will allow things to equilibrate and everything to absorb the heat.  i totally buy into the heat soak idea.  in 2 days everythin warms up nicely.  i leave my stove on 24/7 and my house if very comfortable and even.


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## RKS130 (Feb 16, 2014)

leff13 said:


> I plan on getting a harman p43 for my 900 square foot home. I know it will heat my first floor up great, i need a way to get the heat upstairs, from what i read i finally understand the process of cool air has to be pushed down for the heat to rise, i also read everywhere that cutting floor registers is highly illegal and not fire safe. i have 2 ceiling fans in the first floor where the stove will be, if i cut 2 vents in the ceiling will that allow enough cool air from upstairs to travel downstairs and will the heat naturally rise better or will you need another set of vents to allow the air back up, im wondering if the ceiling fans will help either push or pull the air to help, any input to clarify this topic please please



Our house is about 1800 sq. ft., including the garage which is not heated.  Our stove is opposite the bottom of the stairs and heats both levels nicely, although one or two upstairs rooms are not as warm as the others.  The point is, however, you can feel the cold air coming down the stairs at floor level and warm air going up closer to the ceiling.  I too would hold off on vents until you see how it works and perhaps through the wall venting on the first floor to improve the airflow should be tried first.


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## fordf150 (Feb 16, 2014)

welcome to my storage/utility room...till we get working on it again.this is my setup...its ugly and it works.there was a thermostat on the duct fan.it broke


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## ndmcsx (Feb 16, 2014)

Ive heard of people turning the furnace blower on to circulate the air if need be.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2014)

If you even remotely think about ducting a pellet stove get one you can duct otherwise you have a non compliment install as soon as you add the ducting, then your insurance company can tell you to take a flying leap.  Mortgage troubles can then quickly ensue.

If you are thinking of installing floor vents make certain that they conform to all codes in your jurisdiction otherwise not only are you placing yourself in potential danger but you will have an issue with the code enforcement folks and multiple day fines may ensue. 

That cab above is a noncomplying installation, they are not listed to be operated with ducting. Not listed for also means not insurable in that configuration.

While everyone is having fun, code is a multilevel thing and you have to make certain that the installation complies with all codes.

Most codes came about because of folks doing things that weren't all that safe, these folks even included builders and yes some codes are overkill, but then some codes aren't really up to snuff.


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 16, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> If you are thinking of installing floor vents make certain that they conform to all codes in your jurisdiction otherwise not only are you placing yourself in potential danger but you will have an issue with the code enforcement folks and multiple day fines may ensue..


 
So what your saying its only dangerous if the code says so? If the code doesn't address it its fine?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> So what your saying its only dangerous if the code says so? If the code doesn't address it its fine?



The question posed isn't about what is safe and a number of the responses aren't even close to what would be considered as safe.

The question was about what was legal.

Now most code is speaking to what would be considered by the "law" (civil legal system) to be safe, go against that and you run into issues with the local authorities and personal liability issues.

This is sort of like the fasteners deemed "safe" by the IBC  (International Building Code) now if you want to perch a deck off the side of a  building several floors off the ground using them go right ahead however they fail most local codes.  Remember codes are minimum requirements.


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2014)

fordf150 said:


> welcome to my storage/utility room...till we get working on it again.this is my setup...its ugly and it works.there was a thermostat on the duct fan.it broke
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Code does address this and that is definitely against code. Return air ducts need to be at least 10 ft away from the stove. Check with your local authority and be sure to bring them pictures.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2014)

If you want safe, the exit temperature at all registers must be below the burning point of flesh at maximum firing rates.

The convection air handling system must be closed at or near the heating device (removes any possible chimney effects, and is usually pointed at by some local code requirements that the ducting contain a minimum of two 90 degree turns). 

I would add that the combustion air path also be closed in the same area to prevent smoke infiltration.

At this point you have a modified unit operating in an unlisted mode, then you just have to fight the insurance companies.

Now it is still possible that local codes will say even that isn't safe.

You folks can fight all of the battles, personally I don't have an iron in this fire.


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 16, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> The question posed isn't about what is safe and a number of the responses aren't even close to what would be considered as safe.
> 
> The question was about what was legal.
> 
> ...



So can you give me a reference to any code anywhere that says you can't cut registers between floors in a residential structure?


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2014)

It depend on your local code. Some require fusible-link fire dampers to be installed. Check with your local inspecting authority.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> So can you give me a reference to any code anywhere that says you can't cut registers between floors in a residential structure?



All I'm doing is pointing out that you have to check with the local yokels or risk the consequences if such is not done properly.

Just cutting the holes is likely to only be a very small part of it.


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 16, 2014)

So once again no one can provide a reference. Nothing in NFPA or any building code. Its another I read it on the internet so it must be true.


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2014)

Not so, but it is exhausting to keep looking this chit up. You do it this time, K? Give ya a hint, check IBC. Note that Smokey is not saying don't do it, he is saying check with the local inspecting authority and maybe with your insurance company. Both are good suggestions.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2014)

For Maine one can start by reading all of these:

*MUBC (Maine Uniform Building Code) consists of:*

2009 International Residential Code (IRC)

2009 International Building Code (IBC)

2009 International Existing Building Code (IEBC)

62.1 - 2007 (Ventilation for Acceptable Indoor Air Quality)

62.2 - 2007 (Ventilation and Acceptable Indoor Air Quality in Low-Rise Residential Buildings)

E-1465-2006, Standard Practice for Radon Control Options for the Design and Construction of New Low-Rise Residential Buildings



*MUEC (Maine Uniform Energy Code) consists of:*

2009 International Energy Conservation Code (IECC)

62.1 - 2007 (Ventilation for Acceptable Indoor Air Quality)

62.2 - 2007 (Ventilation and Acceptable Indoor Air Quality in Low-Rise Residential Buildings)

90.1 - 2007 (Energy Standard for Buildings except Low-Rise Residential Buildings) editions without addenda.

E-1465-2006, Standard Practice for Radon Control Options for the Design and Construction of New Low-Rise Residential Buildings.


All small towns that didn't have an existing code of their own were required by the Maine Legislature to adopt and enforce the above.

Now if you really want to have fun you will find references to other codes in those.

You also have to remember that not all towns have to adopt and enforce the above so there are still a lot of local variations out there, it is your duty to comply with your local requirements.

Please note that there is no reference to NFTA directly above.  Your state can be completely different and in addition the state can add requirements above what is in the above by just writing a new law.



ETA:  For sh**ts and giggles my son showed up with a copy of the 2009 IRC (he sort of works in the field) as it pertained to building a deck, we built one back in 2012 during the hot spell.  It didn't apply and further I wouldn't build a deck attached to any structure using the so called minimum specification fasteners.  They were available at Lowe’s and clearly marked as IRC code complaint.  All I could see is my deck parting company from the house.


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 16, 2014)

I've looked. Never found it. Nobody has ever provided a reference. If its code what code? You right its exhausting looking for something that's not there. Would love to have somebody prove me wrong but the best I can tell its just an internet myth that keeps being repeated enough times that it must true. I don't think its a good idea myself but I don't believe its against any code.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 16, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> I've looked. Never found it. Nobody has ever provided a reference. If its code what code? You right its exhausting looking for something that's not there. Would love to have somebody prove me wrong but the best I can tell its just an internet myth that keeps being repeated enough times that it must true. I don't think its a good idea myself but I don't believe its against any code.




Let's see you have looked in the code manuals for every state, county, and town because that is what it entails.  That should have cost you just a few dollars.  I can't even read the code online for my town, you have to visit town hall to get a copy of it or read it there (read if you want to walk out with a copy you buy it).


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## CaptSpiff (Feb 17, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> For Maine one can start by reading all of these:
> 
> *<Snipped>*
> 
> ETA:  For sh**ts and giggles my son showed up with a copy of the 2009 IRC (he sort of works in the field) as it pertained to building a deck, we built one back in 2012 during the hot spell.  It didn't apply and further I wouldn't build a deck attached to any structure using the so called minimum specification fasteners.  They were available at Lowe’s and clearly marked as IRC code complaint.  All I could see is my deck parting company from the house.



Just to lighten things up: 
When I first got started in building things for others, I thought "The Code" was just there to slow me down or get in my way. Then an old bull told me "remember that if you're building to code, you're building to the absolute minimum standard acceptable to human habitation". I can't seem to get that out of my head, and I hear it every time people start discussing whether something is, or is not, up to code.
My 2 cents.


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## begreen (Feb 17, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> I've looked. Never found it. Nobody has ever provided a reference. If its code what code? You right its exhausting looking for something that's not there. Would love to have somebody prove me wrong but the best I can tell its just an internet myth that keeps being repeated enough times that it must true. I don't think its a good idea myself but I don't believe its against any code.



A visit to your local inspecting authority is the best bet. 

PS: I don't believe DB Cooper jumped out of a helicopter either.


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## DBCOOPER (Feb 17, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Let's see you have looked in the code manuals for every state, county, and town because that is what it entails.  That should have cost you just a few dollars.  I can't even read the code online for my town, you have to visit town hall to get a copy of it or read it there (read if you want to walk out with a copy you buy it).



So your saying it might be in some obscure local code somewhere. Lets try one. Lets take Standish Me as an example. The building inspector Dan Hill there seems like an fairly intelligent guy but as a local government employee I doubt he has the education or background to write the codes for Standish. He would have to be a subject expert in plumbing, electric, and fire protection just to mention a few. Yet he's the man that does the inspections, how do they do it? A little more digging reveals that the government in Standish realizes that they don't have the expertise to write their own code so they do what every other government does and adopt a code. In this case its the IRC Residential Code 2003. Link below. In this code it does not address the cutting of registers thru floors for the purpose of transferring heat.

Just for reference the IRC code doesn't make stuff up, they use international codes for the mechanical plumbing electric and fire protection. So you see local codes are just adopted national and international code. They can be amended to suit local purposes.

So yea, it might be in some local code and I keep reading on here its a code violation to do it, but have yet to see a reference for it. Might make a good Myth Busters episode.

IRC Residential Code 2003
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/irc/2003/

www.*standish*.org/public_documents/*standishme*_*code*/index‎


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 17, 2014)

DBCOOPER said:


> So your saying it might be in some obscure local code somewhere. Lets try one. Lets take Standish Me as an example. The building inspector Dan Hill there seems like an fairly intelligent guy but as a local government employee I doubt he has the education or background to write the codes for Standish. He would have to be a subject expert in plumbing, electric, and fire protection just to mention a few. Yet he's the man that does the inspections, how do they do it? A little more digging reveals that the government in Standish realizes that they don't have the expertise to write their own code so they do what every other government does and adopt a code. In this case its the IRC Residential Code 2003. Link below. In this code it does not address the cutting of registers thru floors for the purpose of transferring heat.
> 
> Just for reference the IRC code doesn't make stuff up, they use international codes for the mechanical plumbing electric and fire protection. So you see local codes are just adopted national and international code. They can be amended to suit local purposes.
> 
> ...



IRC 2003 in total may no longer apply in Standish the building code (chapter 111) in the current online system is marked reserved and no entry is available.  For all code matters one talks to Dan Hill.  Since code can and does frequently change the only  place that is current is the local CEO's version.

https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/arch262/calculators/hole-in-floor/holes.html gives but the start of considerations under the 2012 versions of the IBC for cutting any holes between floors.  

Your code, your past code, and your future code is not required to be the same as my town or any other town's code and yes a lot of what is passed as local is in fact adopted from elsewhere and is prone to have been modified.   Frequently to allow other practices some of which may be better or not.

That is why we always tell folks to check with their code folks.

ETA: BTW Dan loves to have visitors and a good chat.  My deck passed and he didn't even get the steel spheres out.  The weakest point in the whole project was the ground the footings were in.


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## chken (Feb 17, 2014)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> ETA:  For sh**ts and giggles my son showed up with a copy of the 2009 IRC (he sort of works in the field) as it pertained to building a deck, we built one back in 2012 during the hot spell.  It didn't apply and further I wouldn't build a deck attached to any structure using the so called minimum specification fasteners.  They were available at Lowe’s and clearly marked as IRC code complaint.  All I could see is my deck parting company from the house.


So, I live in a small town in Maine, one without an existing code, as you point out, that has had to adopt the State code. I had a deck built last year, and I was just wondering about the deck fasteners you are referring to. Just want to make sure my deck stays fastened to my house.


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## leff13 (Feb 17, 2014)

i just plan on putting a through the wall fan high up in the partition wall to blow up the stair case, ill just go from there..thanks for all input


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## AbetterChimneynm (Feb 17, 2014)

If space is something you are considering enviro mini makes a very nice and small footprint stove that comes with its own built in floor pad


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## SmokeyTheBear (Feb 17, 2014)

chken said:


> So, I live in a small town in Maine, one without an existing code, as you point out, that has had to adopt the State code. I had a deck built last year, and I was just wondering about the deck fasteners you are referring to. Just want to make sure my deck stays fastened to my house.



They were minimum sized in diameter, they would likely work fine if you were fastening to older stye framing but were under sized to hold what I was building which was going onto newer framing.    There are more fastening points with older framing (hopefully).  You have to make allowances for that.  On an older house you normally get an extra fastener every four feet.  I am talking the galvanized lag bolts used to bond the ledger board to the house. 

The normal failure mode for decks is due to water getting into the area the lag bolt (or other fastener) penetrates in the house framing etc... , this is the reason for the flashing and such, the bolt and the deck can then be pulled away from the framing due to rot.   After that we have the case where the bolt itself can snap.  The load placed on such fasteners can require that more than just the minimum be used.

Unprotected untreated wood can be a mess in just a few years once water gets to it.  The reason why I built the deck was so I could remove what was there because it was failing.

I also have a narrow long deck on the other side of the house that would be fine using what Lowe's had marked as compliant.   

It is the load that counts.  

Usually if the deck is made to a readily available plan someone has done some load calculations and the material list has that taken into account.  

I had to present a plan for the deck specifying the materials and a lot plan showing the setbacks.  The inspection was actual to plan and the CEO passed on the plan prior to issuing the permit.   He has a set of tables he uses to verify the material can take the loads.

I also have been accused of over building.


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## fordf150 (Feb 17, 2014)

seems i got this post fired up....lol....sry for the pun...


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## pen (Feb 17, 2014)

Seems like the fire is going out, and the topic is changing.

That said, time to close things up.



fordf150 said:


> seems i got this post fired up....lol....sry for the pun...



No harm in sharing info and ideas to help make certain people are able to understand risks and make informed decisions.

I think that has been done and dragging things out further would just muddy the information that is relevant to the original post in this thread.

pen


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