# Was able to Reduce Electric Bill!



## dbchris (Jan 27, 2007)

I stopped using my electric dryer. I also began unplugging the microwave, tv's, and turning off computer and monitor at night. What a difference! You folks probably know this but I am amazed! Some difference between last year and this are:

Been warm. Oil furnace not on much because of Pellet stove & warm weather.
Pellet stove on to zone heat when we are down stairs. (most of the day)
More Christmas lights than last year.
Air dry clothes when ever possible.

My family complains about stiff clothes, having to plug in and UNPLUG the device, and shutting down the computer. I moved into this home three years ago. Our last house had NG everything. NG is not an option here. So I just realsized the differences when doing simple things.


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## ChrisN (Jan 27, 2007)

Beth, Congratulations!!  nice work.  I stopped using my electric dryer about a year ago and noted a drastic drop in my electricity usage.  during these winter months I am drying things inside on clothes racks.  A load a day here ( teenage boys!) and I am able to keep up.  Have you made the switch to CFL bulbs too?  they make a big difference.  I've  been mulling over putting the TV on a power strip, but with the boy's schedule I'm not sure I could come close to controlling the TV


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## MrGriz (Jan 27, 2007)

Great Job!  I have all electric baseboard heat in our house.  The wood burning insert has made a huge difference in the amount of electricity we use.

I'm not sure that I will ever be able to get my wife to give up the electric dryer though.  I did switch almost everything over to CF bulbs also.

I do wish that NG was an option for me, but there isn't any run to the house and it woudl be too costly to do so.  I will continue to chip away at the electric usage though.


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## dbchris (Jan 27, 2007)

Yes we to are switching to the CF bulbs as the others burn out Amazing what a difference this stuff makes. I've been waiting for the electric bill to come to measure what changes were happening. I was pleasantly surprised. Makes you smile when you know your efforts are paying off.


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## DriftWood (Jan 27, 2007)

Beth said:
			
		

> I My family complains about stiff clothes, .


 I do the laundry around here and hung cloths in the basemment for years and always the same complant. Wife and kids always complained the clothes are to stiff when dry. I guess we are getting soft. She found a used electric dried and deplaced the old 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111950s one that was with the house when we came here in the 1990s. I mean to say this place was set up for line drying, 5 30 foot clothes lines in the basement and a drying area with a set of clothes lines out back. The problem is the planting of trees in the past that placed this area in shade. I had long lines of clothes strung between trees . I would move the drying lines chasing the suns rays through the seasons to keep the sun on the clothes. Dodging rain storms was fun to. A lot of times cloths got a extra rinse. Now my wife stated the lines in the basement are going. The line stands out back were moved for a backyard wedding and never replaced. My sister in law a nurse still line drys on sunny days as she says" It is the only real way to kill germs" Have fun!


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## jjbaer (Jan 29, 2007)

Beth said:
			
		

> I stopped using my electric dryer. I also began unplugging the microwave, tv's, and turning off computer and monitor at night. What a difference! You folks probably know this but I am amazed! Some difference between last year and this are:
> 
> Been warm. Oil furnace not on much because of Pellet stove & warm weather.
> Pellet stove on to zone heat when we are down stairs. (most of the day)
> ...



So, please tell us...what was the electric bill before and after implementing these conservation procedures?


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## dbchris (Jan 29, 2007)

So, please tell us...what was the electric bill before and after implementing these conservation procedures?

Avg.  daily usage Current Month: 32.9
Avg. Daily usage Last Month: 34.1
Avg. daily usage Last year: 44.7

Used 1154 kwh this bill. $166.53 I don't have the numbers from last year.
The graph that comes with bill is down. Yippee! It's nice to see changes like this.
I'm not sure if the  $$ rates have gone up or down, but my usage has dropped


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## jjbaer (Jan 29, 2007)

Beth said:
			
		

> So, please tell us...what was the electric bill before and after implementing these conservation procedures?
> 
> Avg.  daily usage Current Month: 32.9
> Avg. Daily usage Last Month: 34.1
> ...



Yes..your usage is down based on last year but you said your daily usage for the current month is 32.9 but said you used 1154 KWhrs this bill.  1154 for a 30 day month implies about 38.4 KWhrs avg daily use, not the 32.9 you stated.......


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## velvetfoot (Jan 29, 2007)

I found that my TV & DVR consume 60 watts when turned "off".


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## jjbaer (Jan 29, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I found that my TV & DVR consume 60 watts when turned "off".



Yes...at even 10 cents/Kwhr, that's $4.32 per month....for me it's about 7% of my monthly electric bill


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## dbchris (Jan 29, 2007)

Yes Castiron, just typing what the bill says. Also I didn't notice until your post that this was a 35 day billing period. Sorry to have mislead you. Why do they do that? They read the meters electronically now. You would think they would be consistant now. Was last year also a 35 day period i wonder out loud.


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## zzr7ky (Jan 31, 2007)

Hi - 

I've got the TV/VCR on a wall switched circuit.  It did make a difference.   
Mike P


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## dbchris (Jan 31, 2007)

Interesting on everyone’s techniques I'm seriously trying to reduce my bills. We use way too much electric. Between the lights on, the pool pump in the summer, and the furnace/pellet stove in the winter, I'm game for eliminating the dryer for now. Driftwood, your nurse sister-in-law is probably correct about the sunshine killing germs. And it's free  Even though I do not use the dryer, and hang a load indoors daily, and have a humidifier on the oil forced air furnace, I still have to run 2 humidifiers in the bedrooms. My skin is really dry now


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## TMonter (Feb 9, 2007)

My bill last month (North Idaho) was:

Electric:

CONSUMPTION 600 KILOWATT HOURS @ .05627  $33.76
CONSUMPTION 83 KILOWATT HOURS @ .06397    $5.31
BASIC                                                              $4.00

Gas: (Water Heater Only)

CONSUMPTION 28 THERMS @ 1.16175   $32.53
BASIC                                                 $3.28

Total - $78.88

We consumed a lot more electric this year because of weather, NG was about equal.

I've reduced my usage by almost half from when we first moved in by the following:

Turn everything off when not using it.
Replace old light fixtures with florescent ones when possible with high power factor electric ballasts
Use CF lamps where possible
When purchasing appliances especially electronics look at the manual for "standby" power usage. My new AV receiver consumes just 0.5 W in standby


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## Mo Heat (Feb 18, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I found that my TV & DVR consume 60 watts when turned "off".



Good grief! I've got 7 TV's if you count computer monitors. No wonder my CF's haven't lowered the bill that much. And I'm about to replace my capoot radon mitigation fan that's been saving me about 90W's continuous usage.

I had no idea that phantom loads (instant on stuff, MW clocks, etc.) drew so much juice.


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## BrotherBart (Feb 19, 2007)

If I could just find a way to burn spam email I would never have to cut a tree or pay for heat again for the rest of my life. And if I could burn it in a lamp my electric bill would be zilch.


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## KarlP (Feb 20, 2007)

MrGriz said:
			
		

> Great Job!  I have all electric baseboard heat in our house.
> 
> I did switch almost everything over to CF bulbs also.



Incandescent light bulbs just electric heaters where the element gets so hot it glows brightly.  For every watt you don't send to the light bulb you need to send an extra watt to the heater to maintain the same temperature.  Obviously this works the other way in the summer, but CF bulbs or turning off the DVR/computer/microwave do nothing during the heating season if you're heating with electric anyway.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2007)

I just thought I'd chip in with this little tidbit.  My Sony DVR as well as Toshiba TV came with "TV Guide On Screen" which receives program information and of course advertisements when the unit is turned off.  Alas, "turned off" still consumes the amount of power described above.  In my experiments with a timer to turn off all power to the units, I lost the programming.  It appears that the local TV station that carries the TV Guide signal didn't for a time.  I learned that the station could on its own just discontinue carrying the signal anytime it wants.  Anyway, that wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that the Sony DVR requires the TV Guide signal to set the unit's clock-there is no way to manually override this!  So, the DVR becomes essentially valueless to me if the TV Guide signal is no longer available.  Luckily the signal came back after about four days;  maybe my calls to Sony and the station helped, but who knows.

Anyway the moral is, if you get a device that depends on TV Guide, try to get one with a manual override.

I'm burning 60 watts 24x7 now, but I could try again.


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## jjbaer (Feb 20, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I just thought I'd chip in with this little tidbit.  My Sony DVR as well as Toshiba TV came with "TV Guide On Screen" which receives program information and of course advertisements when the unit is turned off.  Alas, "turned off" still consumes the amount of power described above.  In my experiments with a timer to turn off all power to the units, I lost the programming.  It appears that the local TV station that carries the TV Guide signal didn't for a time.  I learned that the station could on its own just discontinue carrying the signal anytime it wants.  Anyway, that wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that the Sony DVR requires the TV Guide signal to set the unit's clock-there is no way to manually override this!  So, the DVR becomes essentially valueless to me if the TV Guide signal is no longer available.  Luckily the signal came back after about four days;  maybe my calls to Sony and the station helped, but who knows.
> 
> Anyway the moral is, if you get a device that depends on TV Guide, try to get one with a manual override.
> 
> I'm burning 60 watts 24x7 now, but I could try again.



are you saying that your monthly electric bill is only about 43 KW-hrs because that's what 60 watts x 24 hrs x 30 days yields?  Unless you're living alone in a small apartment (and even then it's hard to imagine consumption being so low), 43 KW-hrs seems like a way, way too low consumption rate......check your last bill and see if it's "actual" or "estimated" and tell us what it says......


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2007)

60 watts just for TV.


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## jjbaer (Feb 20, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> velvetfoot said:
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Hi Mo.......hey, that means you have about 3 computer monitors and the CRT types suck a lot of energy....as they die you can save $ by going to LCD monitors........


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## jjbaer (Feb 20, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> 60 watts just for TV.



I see...we were all envious there for a moment...........so, your TV consumes 43 KW-hrs per month.....that's about 9% of an average 500 KW-hr bill going to TV's.......


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2007)

I did look at my electric bill the other day, I do think it averages 450 KW-hrs.  
As I said, I might try again, but it's a tightrope act with the above constraints as well as Mrs. VF.


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## jjbaer (Feb 20, 2007)

Beth said:
			
		

> So, please tell us...what was the electric bill before and after implementing these conservation procedures?
> 
> Avg.  daily usage Current Month: 32.9
> Avg. Daily usage Last Month: 34.1
> ...



What do you have that's electric that's driving you bill so high........?  32.9 KW-hrs per day for a 30 day month is almost 1,000 KW-Hrs per month.....a very high bill unless you have electric heat and/or a deep well pump or are running a home-based business that consumes a lot of electricity or have several children that you're constantly running the washer and dryer for.  My bill for my wife and me in our 1700 sq ft house (kids at college) averages 550 KW-HRs per month.  We have two sump pumps, electric dryer, washer, microwave, smooth-top range, dishwasher, fridge/freezer, two TV's, two DVD players, two VCR players (I turn the TV, and DVD and VCR players off when not in use but I don't unplug them), two computers (one with LCD monitor, one with tube type monitor), 10 outside security lights (5 sets with 2 bulbs per set), a radon fan that's on 24/7/365, a 2.5 ton whole-house air conditioner, a furnace fan that I leave on 2 hrs per day (even when the furnace is off) to circulate heat from the Buck Stove.  Guess what I'm saying is that unless there are extenuating circumstances, you could cut your bill in half.......


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2007)

I got the kill-a-watt gadget discussed on a previous thread and found it handy for this sort of stuff:
http://tinyurl.com/2wqnnu (Tiny by Mo. Too much scrolling! I've got one of those BTW.)


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## Mo Heat (Feb 20, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> Hi Mo.......hey, that means you have about 3 computer monitors and the CRT types suck a lot of energy....as they die you can save $ by going to LCD monitors........



I should probably be embarrassed, maybe ashamed. My last electric bill showed 1,308 kwh's used. And that is without the A/C going like it does in the summer. I have motion lights, timers, or CF bulbs all over the place. Of course, for some reason, and as I've said before, everyone in the Mo Heat household has their own refrigerator / freezer. One of them is old and will be seeing the Kill-o-watt meter in it's near future. I suspect it is a big offender. And I'm installing a radon fan in a couple weeks to make things worse. I try to save, but I'm a miserable failure, it seems. My mother-in-law lives with us and I think that is a pretty big electrical foot print in itself. Not much I can do there for political reasons.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2007)

I found that a 15 watt radon fan did the trick for us.


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## Mo Heat (Feb 20, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I found that a 15 watt radon fan did the trick for us.



Dang! I just ordered one with a much higher wattage to match the one I had.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2007)

I have electronic radon meters to measure the basement and first floor numbers, so I know it works.


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## jjbaer (Feb 20, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> castiron said:
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Mo,

See my post a bit earlier .....you're consuming about 2.4 times what I do but I don't have a MIL living with us.  My last bill was 559 KW-hrs for 31 days and I have 5 outside motion lights, each with 2 bulbs (10 bulbs total) and I have a radon fan going 24/7, two sump pumps and everything is electric except for the gas water heater and furnace so it must be other cumulative factors that are driving you to 1300 KW-hrs.  I suspect that a lot of it is the refrigerators...newer ones use about 50 KW-hrs/month and the older ones use more.  If you have three instead of one, then that's about 140 KW-Hrs/mo right there for two additional devices.

I tried to economize on the security lights by yanking the 10, 100 watt bulbs out of the 10 motion lights and replaced each with 45 watt bulbs.  Last year I used 7,406 KW-hrs total for an average of (slightly higher than I posted above) of 619 KW-hrs/month so you've got a LOT of excess you can probably trim from your 1300 KW-hrs.  Good candidates to get rid of are Torchier (halogen) lamps.......small bulbs are 300 watts and the bigger halogen bulbs are 500 watts each.......


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## velvetfoot (Feb 20, 2007)

We like the recessed floodlights, despite the slow warmup.


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## Mo Heat (Feb 20, 2007)

Velvetfoot, I got one of those electronic radon detectors after the first time you mentioned it. I love it. I wasn't going to buy a new radon mitigation fan unless I knew I had a real problem with radon. Oh my God! My radon levels are over 37 pc/l downstairs and between 8 and 14 pc/l upstairs. I guess I should be glowing. But I wouldn't have know, especially all the different location variances, without the cool little radon detector. Good suggestion. Thanks.

Cast, I've already eliminated the halogen stuff, all outside lights are on motion (also 5 x 2 x 100W bulbs) and are only on when the dog goes out or wild animals drop by. They are set for 8 minutes x 3, 4 minutes x 1, and 12 minutes x 1. These things are almost never on, so I don't think that's my problem. If you look at my house compared to others in the neighborhood, it never looks like we are home, except for the MnL room. It's lit up like a light house 24/7, well at least 16/7. 

I suspect the fridge are a heavy draw. I just put the Kill-a-watt meter on the garage fridge. It is an old GE, probably 30 years old, and it just won't die. Hell, I think the MnL bought it USED 30 years ago. I can hear it now, (MnL) "No sense getting rid of a perfectly good refridgerator". I hope the Kill-a-watt meter doesn't burn out trying to keep up with draw out there, I think the lights go dim when that monster comes on. If I can make sense out of the electrical usage, I may be able to justify getting rid of it on the promise of getting a new one... that might take longer than expected to actually obtain, if you know what i mean. 

I only allow myself one 14W CF in the evening for dinner and TV time. I've swapped out the MnL dinner bulbs for a 19W and a 23W, where they once were 2 x 100 W's. Same with my desk lights. I've gone to two recessed 23W (100 W equiv) CF floods. And anywhere there is an incandescent I have a motion switch set from 3 - 4 minutes, except the shower which gets 12 minutes (it's chandelier bulbs that go on and off, so it's not practical to have high dollar CF chandelier bulbs. Those things are expensive, and I don't think would ever pay for themselves, especially given the on and off nature of their usage, but the motion light guarantees minimal usage, and it, like most of the other motion switches, only comes on after dark (they have photo sensors).

It's kind of a mystery where all the electric is going. Maybe my neighbor has tapped into my feed.  I even have CF in the garage and they are on motion switches. As is the laundry which combines a motion switch with (T12?) 4 foot tubes. I've even decommissioned most of the night lights I used to leave burning to prevent falling. With the motion lights, things now take care of themselves.

I do have two electric heaters for the MnL. One in her room and one under the kitchen island (a flat panel 500 W job mounted vertically--it's nice). The kitchen heater is only on during breakfast, lunch and dinner for about 45 minutes each time. It has been left on over night only once. I tried a heavy duty timer approved for "resistive" loads, but it burned out after just two weeks. This was nice because it prevented accidental and prolonged "on" situations. A $20 waste of money at HD, but they refunded it luckily, but they gave me the stink eye because I couldn't find the packaging (I found it two days later) even though I had the receipt. These heaters have only raised the bill about $15 a month, but I'm only paying about $0.055 / kwh, so that's a lot of juice.

In summary... I've done a lot to try and cut back, I'm sitting here in the dark right now, about to light a fire, but either the fridges are killing me, or there are some serious phantom loads around here. I even have a front loading washer and dryer (Maytag wax motor jobs that may burst into flames any day now). I probably have a whole lot of small loads chipping away 24/7. Like LED clocks in every room, TV's all over the place, DVRs x 2, 1 satellite receiver, an RF splitter (that gets hot as hell, but I thought that was a passive, no draw, device), computers x 2 (I've stoped one of the two grid computations programs we used to run--time for the other to go, also), a telephone router and computer network hub, an electric water filter that regens once a week, and ... damn, I could go on and on... I think I'll just walk around and start unplugging crap until someone complains...


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## dbchris (Feb 20, 2007)

I'm learning more Thanks Castiron & MoHeat. I have a halogen light used daily. I have a freezer in the garage probably 15 years old & not full this year . Also I have an electric water heater no insulated wrap. Hmmm... Off to investigate further costs etc. at Lowes/depot.


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## Mo Heat (Feb 21, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> I think I'll just walk around and start unplugging crap until someone complains...



Well, that didn't take long... (Mrs) "Mo! What happened to the LED clock over the TV?!" But at least she hasn't noticed the other two devices that are down within 15 feet of that LED clock.  Three steps forward, one step backward.


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## jjbaer (Feb 21, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Mo Heat said:
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Mo,

I have a gas water heater that vents using PVC pipe but to avoid melting it there's a fan on top of the water heater that comes on before the burner comes on. The fan pulls some cooler room air into the PVC pipe and mixes it with the hot exhaust gas to lower the exhaust temp and not melt the PVC pipe. It was designed this way and it also means the logic system won't let the heater come on until the fan activates first. This means the fan is a normal 120 volt plug and it was a candidate for an electronic timer. Since 50% of hot water costs come from keeping the water at a given temp even when you're not using hot water, I figured I'd put the fan on a timer that won't let it come on until, say, 9 PM at night because my wife and I take showers later at night. This way I could get away with only heating 1 tank-full of water at 9 PM for about 1 hr and then have the water heater shut off until the next night at 9 PM. One tank full should be more than enough to take showers and I'd save a whopping 50% in gas costs. This worked for a while until I got a call from my wife one day while I was at work asking "where's the hot water"......seems she wanted to take a shower in the morning and the tank full of hot water from the previous night was not very hot.....so, like you, the best intentions are sometimes laid to waste......LOL

I'll bet those auto timers draw some load 24/7 and they all add up. As for the night lights, they're a safety item and there is a way to have your cake and eat it too.....I use those "green glow" flat panels (about 2-4 sq inches) that you plug into the wall socket and they're on 24/7 (can't see them glow at all in the daylight) but they use only about 0.02 watts and only cost about a cent or so per month to operate.........

Also, here's another way to look at your electrical usage: you use 1350 KW-hr/month which is about 2 KW per hour......... (1350 KW-hr/month x 1 month/750 hrs = 1.8 KW avg load) so you've gotta be asking yourself "where is this load being dissipated"....?


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## Eric Johnson (Feb 21, 2007)

Just as a water heater aside, I heat all our DHW in during the heating season with wood. When my gas water heater died last spring, I put in an electric one, on the theory that if I'm only using it 4 or 5 months out of the year, why mess around with the gas? There are two things to bear in mind when doing that. First, the pressure gauge on water heaters is actually a temp/pressure gauge, so that if your water gets hot (like 190), the valve is going to lift. It's a safety feature, of course. And secondly, there's a circuit breaker in the thermostat that will kill the power if the temp rises above whatever the set point is. 190 is sufficient to do that. So when I convert back to electric water heat in the spring, I have to remember to reset that little internal breaker.


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## jjbaer (Feb 21, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I have electronic radon meters to measure the basement and first floor numbers, so I know it works.



where did you buy it (radon meter) and what's the approximate cost?


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## velvetfoot (Feb 21, 2007)

This is where I got it:
http://radonamerica.com/Continuous Radon Monitor.htm
$120 + shipping


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## jjbaer (Feb 21, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> This is where I got it:
> http://radonamerica.com/Continuous Radon Monitor.htm
> $120 + shipping



Thanks!


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## Mo Heat (Feb 21, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> Also, here's another way to look at your electrical usage: you use 1350 KW-hr/month which is about 2 KW per hour......... (1350 KW-hr/month x 1 month/750 hrs = 1.8 KW avg load) so you've gotta be asking yourself "where is this load being dissipated"....?



I have been asking myself that very question. How can I use so much electric?

I just walked around the house, put ye old monster fridge on the Kill-a-Watt meter, and made a few changes.

I Unplugged:

2 x VCR's that are rarely used
1 x cordless phone rarely used
1 x TV (bedroom)
1 x family radio NiCad re-charger transformer (it was warm to the touch)
1 x electronic keyboard transformer (it was warm to the touch)
2 x electric plug-in timers (always making a little noise drawing some little watts I suppose)
1 x decorative alabaster pyramid night light
[edit] 1 x 6 way power outlet that has 4 strange little bulbs that sort of flicker (built in night light)
1 x 4 Watt photosensor nightlight [/edit]

I installed power strips and now switch them "OFF" during non-usage periods:

1 x 36" TV with instant "ON" (rec room)
1 x 25" TV with instant "ON" (great room)
2 x VCR's (in addition to the 2 x VCR's listed above)
1 x ye old Dual phonograph
1 x 100W x 5 integrated stereo receiver/amplifier
1 x DVD player that has an led constantly "ON" when unit is "OFF" (weird Samsung)
1 x JVC hi-fi cassette tape deck
1 x stand-alone VHS tape rewinder transformer (warm to touch)

I noticed a couple house built-in devices I never thought much of, but can do nothing about:

1 x whole house PA/Monitor/stereo/doorbell system with LED display and clock (no switch)
1 x whole house secruity system (no switch)
1 x microwave with LED clock (no switch)
1 x oven with LED clock (no switch)
[edit] 1 x Braun toaster oven with an LCD clock [/edit]

I saw a couple lamps that might be candidates for CR's, but Mrs. Mo Heat shot me down for now:

2 x bedroom lamps with 4-way dimmers (dimmers don't work on CF's)

I think I traumatized Mrs. Mo Heat. She hates change, as do many, including me, unless I instigate it. So that's about all I can do for now without upsetting the apple cart. Every little bit helps I suppose.


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## jjbaer (Feb 21, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> castiron said:
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sounds like you've been busy!!  That first group that you switched off consumes about 20 watts and the second group about 50 watts........so....70 watts consumed for 750 hrs (a month) is about 52 KW-hrs or 4% of your monthly bill......not bad for the first pass.......


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## jjbaer (Feb 21, 2007)

Hit the wrong key.....retrying...

Ok.......meant to ask Mo if he has an electric stove and/or hot water heater?

Also learned something interesting today.....a TV with an Energy Star rating (may be other stuff too...don't know) doesn't mean it's a low-power consumer.....turns out that so much attention has been given to devices that draw large parasitic loads when plugged in but turned off, that the Energy Star Rating is given based on power consumed while in standby (turned off but still plugged in) and NOT on energy used while being operated and NOT lso on total energy consumed.  A normal TV consumes about 5-10% of its power while turned off and consumes the other 93% or so while turned on.  New large screen TV's such as plasma can be real energy hogs while turned on...several times more power draw than older TV's but the plasma ones are miserly on power in standby so they get the Star rating!  But... 95% of  power consumed occurs while the TV is turned on.....so.....one could buy an Energy Star TV and have low parasitic losses but HUGE power drains while operating and therefore cost you far more than you're paying now.....


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## jjbaer (Feb 21, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> velvetfoot said:
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Mo,

Just found this on-line:

"In 2001, the median age of primary refrigerators was 5 years to 9 years, whereas the median age of secondary refrigerators was 10 years to 19 years. Because older units are typically less efficient than newer units, secondary refrigerators drive up the U.S. household average consumption of electricity for refrigeration, leaving significant potential for a reduction in total electricity consumption by refrigerators."

Mo...how many fridge/freezer devices do you have, what size and how old?

Ex:  1- 20 cubic ft fridge with freezer 13 yrs old, 1- 10 cubic ft freezer 15 years old, etc


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## Mo Heat (Feb 22, 2007)

I added a couple more reductions:

Unplugged:

1 x 6 way power outlet that has 4 strange little bulbs that sort of flicker (built in night light)
1 x 4 Watt photosensor nightlight

Cast, Well, 70 Watts is 70 watts, but a bit disappointing at only a 4% reduction. Still...

We have electric range and electric double oven, although we typically only use one of the ovens except on holidays. I have even convinced Mrs. Mo Heat to do casseroles in the little toaster oven that heats up so much faster and seems to use less electric due to the radiant heat and close clearances to the food compared to the traditional oven.

I have a 50 gallon gas water heater that I keep set on "Vacation", which is pretty cool as hot water goes. I can get away with it because the ladies are obsessive about only one person taking a shower at a time, so there's no double shower draw down. Unfortunately, it was built in 1988 according to the label, with the energy rating of $221/yr. The energy saver range on the EPA label is from a best water heater of $150/yr, to a worst cost heater of $225/yr. Looks like mine wasn't too efficient even back then. But I don't really have a complaint about my gas usage in the summer, and by doing some space heating with the insert and the two electric heaters, I've managed to cut the bill by about 33% a month [in the winter], and I think that is with a rate increase from the pervious year. 

I have an insulation blanket for the water heater that I bought a few months ago, but inertia has kept me from installing it. Some kind of mental block I suppose. I'll get to it one of these days, sort of thing.

I also have a natural gas, forced air, furnace, with an exhaust assist fan (whatever that's called).

I've been working on Mrs. Mo Heat regarding the oldest fridge, so I think she's about ready to cut back to two fridges. After the last power failure, I put a thermometer in the freezer and it only read 20*F, where as it should be about -4*F. She's a freak for spoiled food, so that was enough to get her thinking. She looked up freezer temps online and discovered that for every 5*F above -4*F, spoilage increased by 50% as a function of time. 

I'll try and see if I can get the ages and sizes of our three fridges without the Mrs. spotting me. She'll know I'm up to something and that could make for a pretty chilly evening, despite the pleasant outdoor temperatures (60's today) after all the changes I've already dropped on her this morning.


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## jjbaer (Feb 22, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> I added a couple more reductions:
> 
> Unplugged:
> 
> ...



Mo...stay out of the dog house...forget about the info on the fridges...all you need to know is that if they're 10 years or so or older that new ones use far less electricity.  In fact, the one that's 30 years old might use 150 KW-hrs per mo vs 50KW-hr for a new one.....a 100KW-hr savings per month or 8% of your bill but to make sure, put a meter on it and see. 

As for the 70 watt savings, that was an estimate based on the fact that some TV's alone can draw 30 watts when turned off but still plugged in......your savings may be more than that since you had 2 TV's and other items.  But, to show you how it all adds up, take that 4 watt photosensor nightlight...don't know if the 4 watts is the light bulb or what the photsensor itself consumes in standby mode...anyway, 4 watts at 24/7 for a month is about 3 KW-hrs per month........about 0.24% of your bill...just for 1 stinking bulb......and that's just for 1 VERY SMALL item.....turn off four of those devices and it cuts your bill by 1%.....they all add up......

let us know what you next bill is......


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## Mo Heat (Feb 22, 2007)

Cast, Thanks for the data points. I'll let you know how the next bill looks. I should have the new radon fan working by then.


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## Kilted (Feb 22, 2007)

Interesting scan of this thread.  Let's see, I donot due without, I use my electric dryer, I have two tv's, two surroud sound systems, three computers, CF lights, electric space heater in bathroom - actually cheaper than running the furnance on mild mornings.  Almost forgot electric chainsaw and wood splitter.

I also drive an all electric car Toyota Rav4EV - I use no stinking gasoline! I drive about 10,500 all ekectric miles per year.

My electric bill for my entire house AND the car was $-50.00 last year, I have not paid a dime for electricity in four years.

So how do I do this?  I have solar panels on the house 5.2kw worth.  I put up 2kw just to supply fuel for the car, these panels have already paid for themselves just in the avoided cost for gasoline.

-- Brandy


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## Mo Heat (Feb 22, 2007)

Kilted said:
			
		

> I also drive an all electric car Toyota Rav4EV - I use no stinking gasoline! I drive about 10,500 all ekectric miles per year.
> 
> My electric bill for my entire house AND the car was $-50.00 last year, I have not paid a dime for electricity in four years.
> 
> ...



I always get into trouble doing math, but let's see...

10,500 mi x 4 yr = 42,000 mi / 25 mi/gal (my worst vehicle) = 1,680 gals x $2.50/gal avg = $4,200. Quite a deal you got on those PV panels (and batteries?). 

I wish I had a similar setup, though, but I'm waiting for things to evolve a bit more. Welcome to the forum, and I hope you stick around and post some more in the green room. You are one of only a few PV users around here.


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## jjbaer (Feb 22, 2007)

Kilted said:
			
		

> Interesting scan of this thread.  Let's see, I donot due without, I use my electric dryer, I have two tv's, two surroud sound systems, three computers, CF lights, electric space heater in bathroom - actually cheaper than running the furnance on mild mornings.  Almost forgot electric chainsaw and wood splitter.
> 
> I also drive an all electric car Toyota Rav4EV - I use no stinking gasoline! I drive about 10,500 all ekectric miles per year.
> 
> ...



Let's see....a typical 100W solar panel costs about $650 and your "avoided gas costs" is about $4,200 over 4 years, so $4,200 only buys about 7 panels which is, at most, 700 Watts (0.7 KW) of solar panels but you said the "avoided cost" allowed you to buy 2KW worth of panels which is three times what the "avoided cost" allows you to buy.............how is this possible let alone the additional money you'd need to buy batteries and inverters?


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## jjbaer (Feb 22, 2007)

Kilted said:
			
		

> Interesting scan of this thread.  Let's see, I donot due without, I use my electric dryer, I have two tv's, two surroud sound systems, three computers, CF lights, electric space heater in bathroom - actually cheaper than running the furnance on mild mornings.  Almost forgot electric chainsaw and wood splitter.
> 
> I also drive an all electric car Toyota Rav - I use no stinking gasoline! I drive about 10,500 all ekectric miles per year.
> 
> ...



You forgot the "logistics and replacement tail" that wags the dog (electric vehicle)...according to Toyota, there are massive (prohibitive, in Toyotas words) costs coming when your RAV 4EV batteries die.  If you go here:

http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/ravev/rav4ev_0_home/index.html

Here's what Toyota says about batteries in your 4EV:

"A battery's capacity is the amount of charge that it holds, and is commonly measured by the range of the vehicle. It is cost-prohibitive to replace an EV battery. The cost to replace the battery is more than the value of the vehicle.".....

So.....unless you got your 2KW of photo-voltaic (PV) panels, batteries and inverter free, you spent a lot more than the "avoided cost of gasoline" to get 2KW of capability and, according to the Toyota website, you're going to be stuck with additional whopping (prohibitive) costs to replace the other batteries in your 4EV when they die.......  Bottom line:  solar is not yet ready for "prime time"....it's still very expensive especially if you have to buy batteries and inverters, and, batteries for both your home solar power system and for your car have limited lifespans and are very expensive.........

I applaud your use of solar and, as a mechanical engineer, I've done the calculations several times myself and solar "just ain't there yet".......it's coming (as prices drop, and panel efficiencies rise, etc) but it's not there yet for the average homeowner due to the high costs, low efficiencies and the limited battery lifespan and disposal problem.....

The ideal way now for the homeowner who, despite the prohibitive costs, still wants to invest in PV systems, is to NOT use batteries but instead to tie the PV panels into an inverter and use what you need and "net meter" (sell) any residual power back to the utility.........  this of course has the drawback that if a power outage occurs at night-time, that, despite having solar arrays, you have no electricity because you have no storage (battery) system..... but it does save you several thousand dollars by not having to buy and maintain large battery banks and worry about how you're going to dispose of them.  The ideal system will be when REALLY CHEAP, REALLY HIGH EFFICIENCY solar cells are embedded into house shingles that have built-in inverters in them to funnel 120V, 60 cycle current into the home with the rest being net-metered back to the utilities....but we're not there yet.....


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## colsmith (Feb 23, 2007)

I borrowed a kill-a-watt meter from someone on the Reduce, Reuse, Recycle, Precycle (?) anyway the RRRP yahoo group.  Our older freezer takes more power than our newer freezer, but not much more.  Unfortunately our water heater is wired directly and so we can't tell how much power it is sucking.  We think a lot, as in our previous home we had a gas water heater and our electric bills were half as much as they are here, kWh cost being about the same.  The most immediately useful thing we learned is that the electric palm tree I got for Christmas from a friend, and which I really like (it is cool!) takes more power than anything in our house while it is on.  Unless we ran our microwave all the time, that is the most power/time of anything, but we hardly use it.  The palm tree is really nifty, so it is good that I know it's a hog, or I would have it on more often.

Anyway, if you can get your hands on a kill-a-watt, I would recommend it.  Very interesting.  The woman who lent it to me has reduced her electric bill considerably.  She found that their waterbed heaters were real pigs, so out with the waterbeds!  Also unplugged lots of stuff and so on.  My hubby watches a lot of TV (while doing other stuff usually) and tapes things on the VCR at night, so we can't turn those off.  Our electric bill is about $60.month, but we think that is high because in our old house it was about $30.

We have always hung up all of our laundry to dry since 1991.  Helps with in house humidity, plus the clothes don't wrinkle hardly at all like if they sit in a heap in a dryer.  Not sure about the stiff problem, haven't noticed or maybe we are used to it.  Half the year clothes go outside, when they blow around they certainly don't get stiff.  We do put vinegar in our laundry once in a while, that dissolves built up detergent, which might be contributing to the stiffness.  What I like is that my clothes don't shrink in the dryer - if they get tighter, it means I got fatter!  Plus they wear out more slowly, that saves money in the long run, too.

We have CF bulbs everyplace in our house that we can put them, in every room of the house except the bedrooms used for storage.  A lot of long fluorescents as well, in the kitchen and basement.  In multiple bulb fixtures we leave one regular bulb, so that it comes on right away.  Otherwise there is that small delay and visitors tend to turn the switch back and forth thinking something is wrong.

We thought about solar shingles, but decided the inverter stuff cost too much.


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## Kilted (Feb 23, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Kilted said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your math is basicly correct.  My math works out a little different.  First, I live in California, Second, I do not have wife or kids, third the Rav4EV actually replaced a Ford Ranger pickup truck that got 17 mpg.  So my pay back was much quicker.

Solar system 5.2kw PV panels 40-75 watt panels SP-75 and 12-185 watt panels, Sharp NT-S5E1U panels, inverter Beacon Power M5 5kw grid tied with a 24kwh battery bank, 8 concorde Sun-Xtender PVX-12255, and 1-Toyota Rav4ev.  Solar panels were installed in two groups; 1) SP75, inverter and battery bank this is the core system installed to cover the house. 2) Sharp 185w panels were specificly installed to cover the EV.  The grid was out in my neighborhood three weekends ago, notice I said the grid was out not my house for 8 hours.  My battery bank can hold the house for 24+ hours.

Remember this is California.  California has/had some generous rebate programs.  I recieved rebates and state tax incentives on both panel installations, and when I leased/bought the Rav4ev there was another rebate program.  Approx. $23k in rebates and tax incentives, yes and I was happy to take it.  I am in PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric) territory.  Our electricity is charge in a tiered system there are 5 tiers for domestic charges.  They also have a rate structure called 'Time of Use' (TOU) there are peak and off peak periods.  I have what is know as E7 rate.  My peak time is from 12 noon to 6pm Monday through Friday, all other time is off peak.  During 'on peak' winter rates are around $0.11 per kwh, summer $0.32kwh, 'off peak' rates are about $0.085.  So if you buy during 'on peak' in summer you pay $0.32kwh.  With net metering I sell back to PG&E.  I'm selling ON PEAK power at $0.32kwh, I use power when I'm home during OFF PEAK times.  I charge the car between 4am-8am - 'off peak'.

Get the picture!!  My system generates approx 5,000kwh's per year, yea thats 5megawatt hours!  As of today this system and this inveter coming up to it's third year 14,611.930 kwh.

If we are going to talk electric car's you first need to watch 'Who Killed the Eclectric Car' (WKtEC), this is your home work assignment.  This movie will answer many of your questions and give us a common baseline to start a discussion from. 

About Toyota's comment on the battery pack.  See the movie WKtEC that comment is left over from when Toyota was trying to kill the car.  Who here has had an engine job?  The last engine job I had done on a Porsche 911 cost me $9,500.

Real life experence: I know of three cars that are having pack problems so far all taken care of under warrenty, this in a fleet of approx 300-500 cars.  Mileage has ranaged from 20k to over 100k miles for the fleet.  Depending if you are a pack abuser or not determines the pack lifetime, low end 45k to high??? >120k miles are the best guess right now.  My range is approx 100miles my daily is ~30miles easy miles on freeway and local streets.

It's 1130 I just put another log on almost time for bed.

Now before in installed the solar I replace all the bulbs with CF and replaced the fridge with a new energy efficient one.  I drop my daily from usage of 18kwh to 15kwh.  When doing solar every watt saved, saves about $4.50 that's how much an installed watt costs.

A short answer since I have installed both PV solar and an EV I can tell you they are made for each other 'marriage made in heaven' but there is a steep price to pay, no free lunch.  Even your 'free' firewood was not, and what about that woodstove?  Natural gas or oil is much more convient just push the button.

Besides the Solar and EV stuff the house has had  new low-e glass, and a new epa wood stove.

Links:

I wish!:  -- $100k
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
Next: -- $50K
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070220/UPDATE/702200428/1148/rss25

My next truck I hope:  -- $45K
http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.html

With more housing getting solar Ahrnold signed the California million solar roofs bill and those new ev car makers the price's should start coming down.

Good night  --  Brandy


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## jjbaer (Feb 23, 2007)

%-P I knew there had to be huge subsidies because there's no way it's affordable for virtually any other state....that system you describe I estimate has to cost $50,000 and that buys a ton of electricity anywhere else especially since most of us get virtually nothing for subsidies. Also, there's the problem of solar insolation (you get much more sun than we do here), shading problems when using solar panels, etc and it all combines to not make it anywhere worthwhile in most other states. Also, I checked your state: CA allows you to net meter electricity kw-hr for kw-hr..that is, you send them say, 3KW-hrs and you get to use 3KW-hrs in return with no net charge, hence the name "net metering" however, in many states it means this: you send the power company, say, 1 KW-hr and they credit your bill only with the cost for the power company to generate that same 1 KW-hr (about 5 cents) but when you turn around and try to use that "banked" Kw-hr, you get charged the generation cost (5 cents) AND the distribution cost (5 cents) so your electricty cost for that 1 KW-hr still costs you the distribution cost (5 cents)....half the price someone else is payng but it's not a "1 for 1 net metering" like you get in CA. 

So, for the other 90% of the country, solar falls far, far, far short of being a reality. You, however, could have precluded all this back and forth by simply initially saying you live in CA and get huge subsidies that allows you to do this..... %-P...and you're right....my math was right.....


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## Mo Heat (Feb 23, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> ...and you're right....my math was right.....



Cast, You're wrong, he said Mo's math was right, not yours (although yours was certainly right, as well). 

Brandy, Thanks for taking the time to write up all that info. Enlightening. Hopefully, I'll read my homework assignment and go from there.

As an aside, I once worked in the Tesla Motors building (small world), of course, it wasn't Tesla Motors back then. It was a microwave transceiver mfr for cell phone network hops. A further aside, the street that Tesla is on is named Varian (actually it's probably on Bing, or maybe even another cross street, but Varian St. is just a few feet away. Varian is, as you may already know but others here may not, the purported starting point, in space and time, of silicon valley. The original garage startup that started it all. Quite some time before Apple and HP, even. I think the Varian brothers started back in the 50's with an important microwave device that revolutionized radar, or something or other.  Bill Farinon, who started Farinon company, which I worked for, probably worked with the Varian brothers at some point. Man, I probably got some of that wrong, but I don't feel like looking it all up to verify. So...

I'm in Missouri now. No net metering AT ALL! But we are working on it. And I had no idea that CA required, or PG&E volunteered, a 1 for 1 kWh swap for net metering there. That makes a big difference to the little guy. 

I'll take your word on the Toyota until I read my assignment, although if you are leasing, the battery replacement problem is at least someone else's, although certainly a cost to the environment for creation and disposal. 

We also have no PV rebates here. In fact, I think folks here are still pretty proud to be burning coal.  I have to admit, we have some incredibly cheap electric here compared to CA. Looking at my last bill I used:

1,308 kWh's, and my bill was
$71.92, that's an incredible
0.05498 cents per kilowatt hour (includes transmission, generation, etc.)

I guess you can blame me, solely, and single handedly, for global warming, but I essentially have two households living under one roof, so it's not quite as bad as it looks. I'm trying to figure out where all the power is going around here. I've already done the CF thing, unplugged gobs of stuff, and a few other things, as well. But I've got some old refrigerators that are being analyzed by my Kill-a-watt meter as I write this. Hopefully, that will shed some light on things.

I'm waiting for those new fangled shingles they are already making to get more efficient and main stream. It would be great to include them in the cost of a replacement roof to further lessen the impact. There are all sorts of new ideas like the thin film approach that are hoping to reduce costs by a factor or two and increase efficiency several times. I'm thinking that current silicon PV is only about 5% efficient. Seems pretty low to me, but it is what it is, and if you've got it, it's pretty cool. In fact, let me thank you for your commitment, since it is helping to drive the cost down for me and others.

One thing that never gets talked about much is the environmental impact of semi-conductor manufacturing. I always wonder how much this increases the impact of PV on the environment. Probably not as much as your average coal fired electric plant, but pretty much an ignored cost when people talk about PV. And the thin film approaches may be just as bad with weird heavy metals used in production and all the by products from their creation.


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## jjbaer (Feb 23, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> castiron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Mo...I stand corrected..he did say your math was correct but so is mine.....LOL... :coolsmile: 

You're right, they don't make it easy around here to go solar and the PV efficiency rates suck.....solar radiation is about 1,365 watts/sq meter exo-atmosphere and about 1,000 watts/sq meter at the earths surface and we get about a whopping 43 watts (4.3% eff) out of 1 sq meters worth of panels..........AND that panel alone costs about $200....then there's batteries and inverters, etc..........need I say more???........LOL


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## Mo Heat (Feb 23, 2007)

Well, I didn't see the "Who Killed the Electric Car" program on my TiVo guide, but I set it up as a wish list. I did find this link and am reading it.

http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/electric.html

I always wondered what happened to all-electric cars that I saw in CA for several years. Seems like Honda and GM both had a model that was only sold in CA.

It looks like the new Tesla econo electric 4-door is going to be built in New Mexico (thanks for that link Brandy). That makes a lot of sense considering the significant push that the governor and Albequerque mayor are making into PV's there. They have a program that I've heard described as very progressive. Maybe matching CA's up until the recent passing of the Ahrnold housing law.

Here's a link for the GM EV-1:

http://ev1-club.power.net/ev1faq/ev1faq.htm

It sounds like GM may have screwed the pooch by at least not keeping an iron in the fire. I believe GM single handedly killed mass transit in the 50's when GM's former CEO? became Eisenhower's Secretary of Transportation. MMM, Hmmm. He put busses into cities so as to remove the street cars, knowing people would hate the busses and buy GM cars as they were being produced cheaper and the economy was getting better. He sold the interstate highway system as a national defense program to Eisenhower, who bought it for whatever reason(s). And the rest is GM history. Their not doing so well now though, are they, or Ford, or Chrysler? Toyota, on the other hand, is kicking major butt. And GM almost laughed at the Prius. Oops.


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## jjbaer (Feb 23, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Here's a link for the GM EV-1:




Mo...as I said for solar panels also goes for this GM car...."not ready for prime time".....see the range.......40-90 miles.............


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## Mo Heat (Feb 23, 2007)

Cast, That GM-EV1 is not made anymore. Check out the new Tesla Motors econo car being built (soon) in NM. Here's an except:

_The company plans to produce at least 10,000 cars a year at the Albuquerque plant, with the first cars scheduled to be ready in the fall of 2009. They would be able to travel 250 miles before being recharged, officials said._

That's as good a mileage as my motorcycle, and twice the mileage of many motorcycles. And an old pickup getting 17 mpg with a 17 gallon tank only has a range of 289 miles.

So things are apparently looking up in the electric car biz. Of course, the last I heard, the Tesla roadster required 60,000 Lithium batteries. That's right, 60K batteries. The same ones that go into a notebook computer. Strangely, this standardized battery format is what allowed them to produce the car at a price that _at least_ celebrities could afford. Still, who wants to change 60k batteries. Hopefully, "batteries are included" with the Tesla... 

BTW: my radon fan just arrived...


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## Mo Heat (Feb 23, 2007)

I looked on Google video and YouTube for the movie, but only found some trailers.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6923835633598627078&q=who+killed+the+electric+car&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Mpe7XfODk

I found them interesting and hope to see the movie. Luckily I'm okay. When the google video started, I was really getting into the soundtrack background music when Martin Sheen's voice suddenly overdubbed things. I found myself instinctively pulling my shirt sleeve up and reaching for a razor blade, but I quickly regained my composure.


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## Kilted (Feb 23, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Cast, That GM-EV1 is not made anymore. Check out the new Tesla Motors econo car being built (soon) in NM. Here's an except:
> 
> _The company plans to produce at least 10,000 cars a year at the Albuquerque plant, with the first cars scheduled to be ready in the fall of 2009. They would be able to travel 250 miles before being recharged, officials said._
> 
> ...



That number is 6,831.  When I bought my Porsche I was told that the cost of the engine was 2/3 the cost of the car.  Here the battery pack is 2/3 the cost of a car.  Porsche is not driven much these days, it has a one year layer of dust on it.

Go here:  http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/?p=39

The web site is a gold mine of information.  Moving polllution - long tail pipe, PV panels and pay back, other forms of alt-energy and there  costs and benifits, lot's anlot's more for those interested you have many weeks worth of reading.  For EV's the Tesla web site is one of the Gold Standards.

Gotta run I'll be back later.  WKtEC is on DVD and should be in the rental chains now.

--  Brandy


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## Kilted (Feb 23, 2007)

FYI - Like I said this web site is a gold mine of info.  --  Brandy

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/index.php?js_enabled=1

Energy 
by Jon Mittelhauser
published Wednesday, February 21st, 2007 

... snip ...

Summary

Wow. I didn’t really start out with the intention of writing such an epic. If you made it this far, I hope that you found it worthwhile. I am passionate about Tesla Motors both for what they have already done and for what they represent.

Again, it is all about energy:

The engineer in me is offended by the complexities of how we get the energy which powers our vehicles as well as the internal combustion engine that consumes that energy. 

The pragmatist in me recognizes that the more complex the system, the more that can go wrong and, therefore, the more energy (and money!) necessary to keep it running smoothly. 

The alarmist in me worries about the energy this country expends to develop and protect the existing system from its own inherent complexities and how vulnerable that leaves us to people who wish us ill. 

The entrepreneur in me believes that the energy I witnessed at and around Tesla Motors can drive them to success with the Tesla Roadster and their future cars. 

The eternal optimist in me hopes that Tesla Roadster’s success will be the first step toward wholesale adoption of electric vehicles. 

The visionary in me sees a future without complex energy distribution systems, a future where everyone simply produces the energy they need locally. 

Only time will tell. But I’m glad that I will be along for the ride…


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## Mo Heat (Feb 24, 2007)

Kilted said:
			
		

> That number is 6,831.



Thanks for that correction. I guess my memory got a little carried away and somehow moved the decimal point for shock value, all unbeknownst to my conscious mind, of course. 

I've looked on that site a few times, and just did again, but I can't seem to find all that much about the new 4-door car. At least not technical specs like I see there for the roadster. I see all the green flag waving and promises from the NM politicians, but where's the technical data on the 4-door product? Maybe the design is still being sorted out, or will be up in Michigan when that facility is fully populated.

I like the idea of an electric pickup, but Phoenix Motorcars is only going to make 500 of their's this year and the bed is smaller than I'd want  in order to make room for a back seat. Maybe they'll make a regular pickup next year if they survive.

I get all excited about some product like one of the ones we've discussed, once or twice every year or two, and then I realize that I probably won't be able to talk myself into buying one. I don't need a devoted commuter vehicle, and they always seem to cost about twice as much as main stream stuff. 

I wish the big auto companies would get off the dime and do something. All they ever do is talk, talk, talk. Hydrogen, fuel cells, electric, hybrid electric, high milage, whatever... nothing ever happens after the concept cars are oogled over at the unveiling or on 60 Minutes. Tesla is going to have an uphill climb to be anything more than an exotic, low volume, auto company. 

I guess oil is going to have to run out or the supply cut off to really get things moving in a different direction. Economics always seems to be in the driver's seat, no matter how cool or green something is. It seems like even early adopters cannot generate enough critical mass to turn the collossus of mainstream manufacturing. Maybe this time I'm wrong.


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## sgcsalsero (Feb 24, 2007)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I got the kill-a-watt gadget discussed on a previous thread and found it handy for this sort of stuff:
> http://tinyurl.com/2wqnnu (Tiny by Mo. Too much scrolling! I've got one of those BTW.)



Thanks for the tip, I'm going to look for one of these, this is great thread, gonna take me a couple days to digest all this info.  My wife does not the like the side-by-side fridge in this house (bought back in '05), so I may be setting myself up . .  . .a little.  I just checked a recent bill, for 22 days in December racked up 460 KWHs, so loooookkkss like I have some homework to do.

At least I didn't get this guy's bill http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7543102


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## begreen (Feb 24, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> I guess oil is going to have to run out or the supply cut off to really get things moving in a different direction. Economics always seems to be in the driver's seat, no matter how cool or green something is. It seems like even early adopters cannot generate enough critical mass to turn the collossus of mainstream manufacturing. Maybe this time I'm wrong.



I think Phoenix and Tesla, along with Altair, et al are upcoming disruptive tecnologies. They will refine and grow at a small scale. But the market is ready for something better and when these vehicles have reached 2nd or 3d generation, I think their numbers will start showing real growth (assuming the company itself is well managed). Those who have owned the electric RAV4's and even the ill-fated GM Impact, have realized that in spite of the automotive marketing gurus demanding 300 mile range for electrics, that really isn't necessary for 90% of many people's driving habits. Ask current owners of the RAV4 electric's if they will give up their vehicles. They'll reply - not even from my cold dead hands.


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## Mo Heat (Feb 24, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> ... and even the ill-fated GM Impact, ...



What GM marketing guru decided to give a motor vehicle an ambiguous name like "Impact"!?  :smirk:


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## begreen (Feb 25, 2007)

Same one that came up with the Chevy Nova or 'No va', which means 'No go' in Spanish. Needless to say, the name didn't help sales in Mexico.


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## ChrisN (Mar 2, 2007)

My latest electric bill says I used 495KWh for a 30 day period from late Jan to late Feb.  I reduced useage by about 50KWH from last year during the same period by 50KWH.  Interestingly the bill lists the average daily temp in 2006 as 34 degrees and the 2007 period as 22 degrees.... so much for our non-winter this year!

   I'm always on the search to reduce electric consumption and my latest contribution is to only plug the charger for our electric toothbrush in 2 nights a week.  I realized that when we go on short trips. the brush stays well charged for three nights.  I haven't invested in a Kill O Watt meter, and suspect I'm not saving much, but every little bit counts!


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## jamorris (Jun 24, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> I believe GM single handedly killed mass transit in the 50's when GM's former CEO? became Eisenhower's Secretary of Transportation. MMM, Hmmm. He put busses into cities so as to remove the street cars, knowing people would hate the busses and buy GM cars as they were being produced cheaper and the economy was getting better. He sold the interstate highway system as a national defense program to Eisenhower, who bought it for whatever reason(s).




Ike never needed convincing.  He used the excellent German Autobahn to invade Germany.  Ike knew what these roads could do, both offensively and defensively.  Troop movement and material transport is a military asset.

Jerry


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## keyman512us (Jun 24, 2007)

castiron said:
			
		

> Mo Heat said:
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Hell...I'de buy it anyway
So what if it only goes forty to 90 miles??? I'de just put in an order with Mr Sharky for a Bio diesel powered "pusher" for longer trips...lol 


Cast... As you have made mention of before, and out of curiousity as to "how chipper your outlook is sometimes"...You weren't by any chance a tail gunner on a B-52 at some point along the way...were you???


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## jjbaer (Jun 24, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> castiron said:
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yeah...I might have to reconsider.....saw a spread in Pop mech (???) or some magazine about these cars 2 months ago.....The EV car plugs into a conventional 120 volt outlet for recharge and as long as you don't use the engine to power the batteries, you get about 150 miles per gallon based on using electricity and gas being $3/gallon.....


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