# Sorry, Another newb wood boiler question(s)  Help.



## gregV (Oct 21, 2011)

First post...

First, I know most of you are most likely tired of answering what may be the same ol questions for newbs. I have been searching here but just get confused and a little overwhelmed with all the additions and new ideas bouncing around. Is below too simple to work, and if it works am I just doing it wrong?
Thanks VERY much in advance.

My mom's old house had an older Tarm in it and she gave it to me. Now I need to hook it up obviously and have been racking my brain trying to figure it out.
*
Background.*
My house is a 1790 30x40 cape. Insulated, but there is only so much one can do with a house that has been restored as close to original as possible. So, the house is warm, but in no way modern efficient. I kept it warm with 90% heat coming from my very old Home Heater wood stove, but at times it was chilly. My water is still oil heat so had to use oil to get that. 

My heat and domestic hot water is relatively new, Buderus G215 Boiler with a Buderus ST150/1 indirect water heater attached (see photos) . It's a water to forced air system with two separate exchangers, one up and one down.

*OK*, I have set up the Tarm in a room on the first floor for now as I have no outside access to my basement to get wood down there I don't have the time or money to put it where I want it at this point (in it's own outbuilding maybe)  and I also wanted to see if it worked OK this season before I dumped money into doing so.  So as it is now, this is a somewhat temporary setup to get me through the cold northeast CT winter with little to NO oil.

Below are two very rough sketches. First is how the furnace is set up now, and the second is what I am thinking would work in adding the Tarm.  Other photos are of my existing system.

W = domestic hot water
F = Oil Boiler
H = Water to air heat exchangers.

Thoughts?? 
Thanks
Greg V


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## gregV (Oct 21, 2011)

A slight change with the circulator. Removing the one off the Tarm and just using the domestic hot water one to run when Tarm get's to temp and is not being called. ????  Can one circulator have two demands?


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## __dan (Oct 21, 2011)

I see several problems.

For the cost of a temporary connection, you could probably get a new high end wood stove for less money and a more permanent value, better payback on investment.

If you want the Tarm on the upper floor, it may be too heavy for the joists with the trim and filled with water. Floor loading could be too much, requiring posts directly underneath.

The combination of a drafty house, no storage or thermal mass, and forced air heat is probably the most difficult combination. You need a higher water temp to operate the fan coil units, design issue. Smoke in the house issue.

The Tarm in series will be hot when firing with oil. There's added heat loss, load there. There's supposed to be a three way thermal loading unit for the Tarm to maintain high return water temp.

Just hooking up a free boiler is a large capital investment. Done right, the cost is averaged over the life of the install. An expensive new system that lasts a long time can be less costly than a free boiler connected temporary for a short time.

My first thought would be to step back and decide what system you want as a permanent install over the long term, everything, especially the distribution. This could include scrapping the fan coils and ductwork, I don't know. Once you have a plan or dream of what you want over the long term, building it piece by piece is good. New windows and insulation could be the biggest payback for money invested.

If you know the outbuilding is going to happen, waiting to put the Tarm there could save some money in the short term.

For example, what is the basement floor. Maybe, in the future, you want to dig it down and pour an insulated radiant heated slab, add a hatch or walkout. That would do a lot for the basement and to moderate swings in temp in the upper house. It would be a good choice to heat that slab with the Tarm hydronically.

That's a nice house in the picture. Amazing for 1790.


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## gregV (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks for the reply dan. I understand all of the concerns, but there are reasons I am wanting to do this this way.
In no way do I have money to get a new system, let alone just pay my existing bills. Let's just say that my work is somewhat dead. I have plenty of wood available so I am mainly doing this to not have to pay for oil.
So, I have what I have and just need to utilize it the best way I can.

Reinforcing the floor is absolutely not an issue and will be done. So this is no concern.
This 1790 house is very original and has four fireplaces that I use whenever I can, when it's not TOO cold out. I hearth cook also so smoke in my house is a norm. ;-) 

_"The Tarm in series will be hot when firing with oil. Thereâ€™s added heat loss, load there. Thereâ€™s supposed to be a three way thermal loading unit for the Tarm to maintain high return water temp"_  I'm not completely sure what you mean, but I am assuming the illustration below circled in red is what you are referring to? I also felt that the return on the domestic hot water would maybe do the same, as it returns to my boiler very hot as it is now. But it does seem that the illustration below is what is needed then. Correct?

I'm not seeing any big investment here, but maybe that's because I am making this too simple? I would think that just about anything I use for this now can be used over again if I move the system. Removing my existing system is not an option as it is also central air. It also just cost me about $36K a few years back. Ugggg.

I guess I am just trying to get through this winter with this for now. I know it's not the latest and greatest, but what I need to know really is if the way I have it sketch out will work. What do I "need" to make this work? I have zero issue with this being temporary at this time, so just looking for some guidance on getting it in. Days and nights are getting colder. 
Thanks for the complement on my home.


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## __dan (Oct 21, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply Firestarter. I understand all of the concerns, but there are reasons I am wanting to do this this way.
> In no way do I have money to get a new system, let alone just pay my existing bills. Let's just say that my work is somewhat dead. I have plenty of wood available so I am mainly doing this to not have to pay for oil.
> So, I have what I have and just need to utilize it the best way I can.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I did not know how new or old the forced air system was. Did not know if you could be moving to hydronic baseboards or something else in the near future.

I honestly do not know what to recommend that would be less than $2000 WAG just for the trim parts, fittings, nipples, valves, flue pipe, pipe, relays, controls, circs, wiring. Parts, no labor. For $2K you could be looking at a new Quadrifire or something that would install easier. If you're hiring the install labor, the install is expected to last 20+ years. I really don't want to know the answer, a permit included.

There is a way forward with the Tarm, but it involves spending money to do right. The place to start is with the right plan.

There are plumbing diagrams to look at on the TarmUSA site.

http://www.woodboilers.com/admin/uploads/public/WoodBoilerPlumbingSchematic0111Web.pdf


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## flyingcow (Oct 21, 2011)

Way over my head to give you useful advice. BUT nice place!


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## gregV (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks. But it's gettin cold.


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## gregV (Oct 22, 2011)

Not seeing that it would be near $2K to do this. ??
I already have insulated stove pipe. I would so all the work myself. 
Anyone else with some input here?  
Thanks again.
Greg V


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## BoilerBob (Oct 22, 2011)

Greg
No expert here, but YES it will work. I have almost the same setup with a 35 year old Tarm. I like the extra boiler of hot water to help when both zones want heat at the same time. The only difference on mine, is the circ between the boilers runs 24/7, keeping all water at the same temp. I know its not the most efficiant, but it works fine. Where you have the pipe capped below your circs, and below your return, just connect them together and you will have a primary loop. 

   Paul


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## gregV (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks Paul. I will think about what you said and get back to ya with questions.


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## gregV (Oct 22, 2011)

So Paul, would having the domestic hot water circulator running 24/7 in my last drawing be doing the same thing, but just now including the water tank and also keeping that hat as well as storing that heat? ??
Greg V


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## BoilerBob (Oct 22, 2011)

Like I said, no expert here. I think it would be better to use the larger diameter pipe to circulate the water, because both heat circs might want heat at the same time. Your domestic pipe is only 3/4", which might not work good to supply 3 circs at the same time.


   PS  Love your house, mine is 120 years old but covered in vinyl crap!
   Paul


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## benjamin (Oct 22, 2011)

I say go for it, but do it as permanently as possible. The definition of temporary is one day less than forever. 

If you're going to go to all of this trouble for one winter, it still doesn't make sense to me, but you might consider hooking up the tarm with 3/4 pipe on a secondary loop with closely spaced tees and another circulator. That's probably as clear as mud, but look at the stickies and you'll get the idea. The advantage is that it might be easier to hook the plumbing up, and will make it much easier to restore the plumbing later.

If it was my house and used boiler, I'd skip the return protection, especially with forced air heat exchangers.


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## Clarkbug (Oct 22, 2011)

You mentioned you had some insulated stovepipe for this install, but do you have a flue to install it in?  Or is it the triple wall stuff that you will run all on its own to the exterior of the house?  (Yeah, I know it wasnt on your list of questions to start....)


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## gregV (Oct 22, 2011)

Clark', I am running triple wall pipe trough the wall to the outside and then up two or three sections. Easy-peasy. 

As far as being a temporary, I have no issue with this. The only thing lost is "time" when I move it and being I do it all myself it's just a non issue. Had to turn on my heat this morning for the first time. I need to get my ass in gear here!  ;-)


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## BoilerBob (Oct 22, 2011)

Greg 
This morning I looked at your diagrams again, and the top diagram is the exact same as my setup. Then my wood boiler is connected to the capped off pipe below your circs and the capped off pipe below your return, with a circ running 24/7 between the boilers.
This would be easy to hook up (temporary), I say go for it. It might not be the best setup possible, but it would be better than burning oil.

   Paul


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## gregV (Oct 22, 2011)

NovaScotian said:
			
		

> Greg
> This morning I looked at your diagrams again, and the top diagram is the exact same as my setup. Then my wood boiler is connected to the capped off pipe below your circs and the capped off pipe below your return, with a circ running 24/7 between the boilers.
> This would be easy to hook up (temporary), I say go for it. It might not be the best setup possible, but it would be better than burning oil.
> 
> Paul


Like this??


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## willworkforwood (Oct 22, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> I say go for it, but do it as permanently as possible. The definition of temporary is one day less than forever.
> 
> If you're going to go to all of this trouble for one winter, it still doesn't make sense to me, but you might consider hooking up the tarm with 3/4 pipe on a secondary loop with closely spaced tees and another circulator. That's probably as clear as mud, but look at the stickies and you'll get the idea. The advantage is that it might be easier to hook the plumbing up, and will make it much easier to restore the plumbing later.
> 
> If it was my house and used boiler, I'd skip the return protection, especially with forced air heat exchangers.


Not a hydronics guru, but I had been thinking along the same lines.  But, with copper being so high, would 1.5 black be a better and maybe even less expensive choice (unless the 3/4 suggestion was also black)?  When it's rolling, the Tarm will be producing a huge amount of heat, and the single circ in your current plan may not be capable of adequately moving all of that hot water fast enough through 2 boilers and the HW tank.  If you skip the return protection, you could tape (and insulate) a $4 "frothing" thermometer onto the return pipe, to make sure the temps coming back are generally ok.  I just checked your thread again, and see you posted a new plan that's just about what we're talking about - looks much better!  Also, how about your insurance Co - will they be ok with this?  Will they want it inspected?


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## BoilerBob (Oct 23, 2011)

Yes Greg, That is how mine is, and it works good.
Paul


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## gregV (Oct 23, 2011)

What is a good choice for a low cost continuous run circulator? Links? 

Thanks


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## benjamin (Oct 23, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> What is a good choice for a low cost continuous run circulator? Links?
> 
> Thanks



Taco 007 is a common one.  

If you're going real cheap you can get a used pump off ebay, for roughly half the new price. Just check the model number to make sure you're getting one that's the right flow-head-hp for what you need.


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## getitinboilerman (Oct 24, 2011)

Sorry to say, but your salvaged wood boiler would not be worth the effort, I am a licensed master plumber ME,NH and Mass and in business for the past 26 years, spend the money and go buy an new Gasification boiler with storage if you want to save in your oil $$$$. It will work, trust me


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## gregV (Oct 24, 2011)

getitinboilerman said:
			
		

> Sorry to say, but your salvaged wood boiler would not be worth the effort, I am a licensed master plumber ME,NH and Mass and in business for the past 26 years, spend the money and go buy an new Gasification boiler with storage if you want to save in your oil $$$$. It will work, trust me



SORRY in advance, but.... 
Post like this just do agitate me.  I think if you had read the thread you might get the fact that I DON"T have $10 friggin *K* to do as you suggest. I will refrain from what else I'd like to say here.  
Holy Moly!   uggggg


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## willworkforwood (Oct 24, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> getitinboilerman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have nothing to be sorry about.  The generalized statement that it "would not be worth the effort" isn't very helpful.  If Getitinboilerman sees something specific about the boiler which highly likely to fail real soon, that would be meaningful information.   He obviously didn't read your op, where you said you already heat 90% with wood.  That makes the break even point for you on a new gasser with storage way, far out.  Everyone's situation is different, and the advice offered here should be focused on each individuals specific circumstances.


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## millerblt (Oct 24, 2011)

Greg, I installed the same Tarm boiler that you have, (1979 vintage) and heated my large farmhouse last winter and it worked out great. What you want to do will save you money, I to could not justify the cost of a new gasser. I installed it myself with much help from reading this site there is tons of good information here!
One note is that this boiler needs a tall chimney, mine is 11' of insulated pipe straight up from the boiler and it is marginal at best.


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## gregV (Oct 24, 2011)

Thanks Miller'. Great to know. How is your Tarm set up? 

OK, I MUST get this all in and running by the end of this week, if not sooner. So, I am torn between these two setups.

W = domestic hot water
F = Oil Boiler
H = Water to air heat exchangers.
T = Tarm

This one... 






To 'me', being a complete newbe here seems best because my Tarm is preheating everything before in enters my system. Thinking that if needed that my domestic water circulator could act as either a continuous flow or an overheat circulator. (that gray box being the Honeywell) . To me this would be not only keeping the oil boiler hot, but also store hot water in the domestic tank.  ???

Then this, suggested and used by Paul.....





Sweet easy hookup is a plus here. I would do this for sure, but what concerns me is that the hot water from the Tarm is being cooled when the heat calls for the circulators to be on, by the return water mixing with the hot Tarm water before entering the oil boiler. Would this then not make my oil boiler want to turn on in order to get the temp up? Or is this mixture what I need and still hot enough for the boiler not to call for the burner to start up?

As soon as U hear some good answers I will get TO IT! I'm excited to get this up and going!  
Thanks everyone!


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## Gasifier (Oct 24, 2011)

Greg, good luck on the install man. I hope it works out good for you. I don't like the idea of the boiler on your first floor because of the smoke issue/fire issue and family health. But if you have to do it like that then that can be solved. Can you rig up some kind of exhaust fan/hood combo in that room to vent it outside? I also read your post and with your other smoke issues maybe and inexpensive air cleaner that you could run several hours of the day would help as well. We bought one from Wal-mart a few years ago and the stuff that gets collected in the filters of that thing is amazing. We change the filters every other month. The other thing I noticed was all the combustibles in that room. The paper facing on the insulation will go up like a match. But, I am assume you are going to sheetrock and eliminate the fire hazard on the floors, walls, and ceiling though. However, I always remember the old Benny Hill show, did you ever see it? Benny once pointed out on a chalk board that you should not ASSUME because you might make an ASS out of U and ME!  :lol: Anyway, just want you and the fam to be safe. Just a few things for you to consider if you haven't yet. Good luck man and keep us posted.


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## willworkforwood (Oct 24, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> ... but what concerns me is that the hot water from the Tarm is being cooled when the heat calls for the circulators to be on, by the return water mixing with the hot Tarm water before entering the oil boiler. Would this then not make my oil boiler want to turn on in order to get the temp up?  ...


The answer is most likely yes right now, depending on what your OB settings are.  BUT, the very easy solution is to drop the HI/LO settings down, in order to stop the OB from firing when the zones open.  However, you do not want to allow the OB to actually run regularly with these settings.  If you go away and need to use oil, then set them back up to the current settings.  One small catch to this is that wood boilers (without storage) are not "on demand" - if you fall behind, and the WB doesn't have a good, hot fire going, it will probably take some time to get things back up to temp (unless you have a better half, who "suggests" using the OB to help out  :lol


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## millerblt (Oct 24, 2011)

Greg, My boiler is 100' from the house in a little room in my wood shed. This sound like the setup you will eventually build for yourself it keeps the mess outside and makes for less wood handling. The hot water from the boiler runs through a heat exchanger in my forced hot air plenum. The pump runs continuously and the fan runs when the thermostat calls for heat. I am currently working on a heat storage tank to make things more efficient.


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## gregV (Oct 24, 2011)

Gasafire, Thanks for that input, but I think it was Abbot and Costello that may have first did the ASS U ME in one of their war support movies ;-) 

Yes, the walls will be sheet rocked and the boiler is sitting on concrete board. As far as smoke, .. well this is a very old house and it needs that smoke to keep the ghost happy I think. It's just part of life living in such a home. Remember, this is not a sealed up modern stress skin construction home. This house 'breaths' as I prefer. Also, no worries about kids and whatnot as they are off on their own and I live alone at this time.


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## gregV (Oct 24, 2011)

willworkforwood said:
			
		

> The answer is most likely yes right now, depending on what your OB settings are.  BUT, the very easy solution is to drop the HI/LO settings down, in order to stop the OB from firing when the zones open.  However, you do not want to allow the OB to actually run regularly with these settings.  If you go away and need to use oil, then set them back up to the current settings.  One small catch to this is that wood boilers (without storage) are not "on demand" - if you fall behind, and the WB doesn't have a good, hot fire going, it will probably take some time to get things back up to temp (unless you have a better half, who "suggests" using the OB to help out  :lol



So, you like the second sketch then?


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## willworkforwood (Oct 24, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> So, you like the second sketch then?


Yes, definitely.  A variable speed circ (Grundfos 58, etc) would allow fine tuning the flow between the 2 boilers.  An Alpha would also work and save in the long run, but more $$ upfront.  Use the largest pipe size compatible with both boilers.  Good luck - I think you will get it done!


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## Gasifier (Oct 24, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> Gasafire, Thanks for that input, but I think it was Abbot and Costello that may have first did the ASS U ME in one of their war support movies ;-)
> 
> Yes, the walls will be sheet rocked and the boiler is sitting on concrete board. As far as smoke, .. well this is a very old house and it needs that smoke to keep the ghost happy I think. It's just part of life living in such a home. Remember, this is not a sealed up modern stress skin construction home. This house 'breaths' as I prefer. Also, no worries about kids and whatnot as they are off on their own and I live alone at this time.



 :lol: Yes, they were good as well. I use to watch them all the time as a kid. My house breaths a little to. Around a few door seals and a few spots left in the house with poor insulation. A little fresh air does not hurt anyone. 

Hey, why not a T above the oil boiler and at your return so that the heat from the wood boiler goes by the oil boiler. A little more efficient, the wood boiler would not be shutting down as much when your oil boiler is up to temp. When we hooked up my set up we installed a simple loop so that wood boiler hot water goes past oil boiler and feeds manifolds and returns to wood boiler or storage, wherever it comes from. If they are off line(cold), and the oil boiler kicks on and the circulation pump just above oil boiler and below the T turns on and feeds the same loop and returns to boiler. Just an idea. Might get less idleing on wood side and that boiler will stay a little more efficient. And the oil boiler will turn on less. Good luck to you man. And have fun burning.


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## gregV (Oct 24, 2011)

OK, 
So drawing is what I am doing. 




D= Domestic water
B= Oil Burner
T= Tarm wood Boiler
Yellow circles are existing three speed circulators.
Green circle is Taco 007

In reading this thread, POST 4 ..  It sound like I can make the Taco 007 variable speed. Correct? 
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/80663/

My questions are:

1. If I get call on two or three of my existing yellow circulators, will the green Taco choke needed water flow though the Tarm? 
Edited... in looking at it, it may make no difference, Right? 

2. Do I need a second pressurized water fill being I already have one in line at the oil boiler?


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## __dan (Oct 24, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> OK,
> So drawing is what I am doing.
> 
> 
> ...



Greg, whatever you do, don't skimp on the pressure relief valve piping. It's pretty easy to make steam and blow open the PRV. Make sure the PRV goes to a drain. I don't know what to recommend. I do know that the controls make a big difference once the piping is operable. For example, if the zones are satisfied and the circs shutdown, the Tarm may not like going from firing with a load to a no load condition in a short period of time. I cannot recommend something because of the expense and long term payback of doing it right. Just food for thought, it the controls shut down the Tarm, if it is rated for idling, and continued running the circs and fan blowers, you would have a cool down period and load while the tarm idles. The job done right is a long term capital investment. The alternatives are unthinkable.

Your heart is in the right place. Still, you could make steam and freeze at the same time.

Just the controls package is four digits.

Just saying, the guys I've worked with always did big stuff, no residential, and there were always steam and water volcanoes on the first firing.

I would say more but would be afraid to find myself in the hole and have to stop digging.


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## BoilerBob (Oct 24, 2011)

Greg,
From the pics on your first post, it looks like 1.5" pipe you will connect to the tarm. Which is plenty of water to supply your 3 circs if they all want heat at the same time.
You also seem nervous about the return going to the oil boiler, and cooling that water first and the oil burner firing up to heat it up. But don't forget it is being mixed with hot wood boiler water. I know the plumbing seems weird, I wanted to change mine when I first saw it, then I figured I would try it. You should definitely lower the hi/lo on the oil boiler. If you don't the oil will always be keeping wood boiler at temperature and it will be idling a lot. I just shut the power off to the oil boiler, and I only put it on when I will be away for more than 1 day. 

   Paul


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## benjamin (Oct 25, 2011)

Looks good enough to me.   If I were putting this boiler in temporarily, I'd plumb it in the easiest way based on your existing layout.  

Just make sure you can and do get the air out and it will work fine.


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## gregV (Oct 25, 2011)

Dan, ... great points and I'm glad you made them. I will absolutely tend to this issue with what is needed. I have several schematics  of doing this I think. 

Paul, yes, that was my concern. Actually the pipe on my existing boiler is 1.25 so I was going with that. The Tarm has 1.5" coming out, but were downsized to 1.25 a very long time ago and I'm not sure that removing those adapters is wise cause they are quite rusted in. But if it's better to stay with 1.5" until I adapt to the 1.25 at the OB, then I will do so. 

Ben,  yes, will do wit the air removal. 

Thanks everyone. Spent yesterday seeing who had what, so today the install starts. I will also need to put in a Y filter as I am sure this Tarm will shed a ton of rust at first.


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## willworkforwood (Oct 25, 2011)

How about piping some kind of a stubbed-out loop with shutoffs on the Tarm supply to the OB?  Then after you're up and running you could drop in some used or discarded fin tube or big radiators for a dump zone.  As Dan said, a blow over (especially on the main floor) is not a happy thought.  Your 2 main concerns are a blow over due to a large heat supply with nowhere to go (all zones staying closed); and also one caused by a power outage (i.e. no circulation).  Along with the emitters, you can add some type of NC valve, opening on overtemp or loss of power, sending the hot stuff into the dump zone.


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## mattd860 (Oct 25, 2011)

Greg - I read through this thread and wanted to offer a rather simple solution. I fear you may be over complicating the plumbing just a bit. You final design will work but I think you should consider the pipe routing that I did last year when I installed my wood boiler. I took your EXISTING drawing layout on page one and edited it appropriately to reflect MY system. Simply put, all you need to do is pipe the wood boiler OUT to the oil boiler OUT. Then pipe the oiler boiler IN piping to the wood boiler IN. Also note the circulator pump and the check valves. 

This allows hot water from the WOOD boiler to go directly to the zones and domestic hot water heater without needing to go through the oil boiler. Hot water from the wood boiler will also be allowed to circulate through the oil boiler to keep it warm.

In my humble opinion, I think you will experience too much heat loss on your latest revision/design because you will be mixing cooler water from the water heater and zones with the heated water from the boiler. My design will force ALL return (or cooled) water through the wood boiler to be heated again. Also, when the wood boiler is turned off, the check valves will allow normal operation of the oil boiler and prevent the oil boiler from heating the wood boiler. When the wood boiler is turned off, the circulator should also be turned off.

Am I making any sense? I am by no means an expert but I just wanted to humbly offer a design that replicates my system. My system works very well for my 2600sf drafty home with my wood boiler placed 30ft away from the oil boiler. Whichever design you choose to go with I wish you the best of luck and the most money saved!


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## gregV (Oct 25, 2011)

Yes Matt, makes complete sense .  A bit harder to install as I will have to remove and replace a lot of the existing in order to thread in the "T"s , but I do like it and unless someone here sees big issues, it's maybe what I will do. 

I bought parts so I can have a heat dump/overheat zone also. Not sure but just may make it some baseboard in the basement for now. I have to ponder this a bit. 

Thanks all!!


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## mattd860 (Oct 25, 2011)

Greg - a dump zone is a great idea. In addition, you could turn on all your heating zones if the boiler overheats. The zones will act as a dump zone. All you need to do is wire in a relay to each of the circulator pumps (or circulator relays). I use these relays - http://ribrelays.com/Products/Pilot-Relays/RIBU1C.html. 

What are you using for controls to control the main circulator pump between the two boilers, aquastat, etc?


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## mattd860 (Oct 25, 2011)

You shouldn't need to add any tees if you don't want to. Just remove the pipe caps and tie in right there. See Below. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here - but I don't think I am. Don't forget to add the check valves where necessary


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## mattd860 (Oct 25, 2011)

Greg - I thought about it for a second and realized you will need an electric ZONE VALVE as noted in the drawing below. Otherwise, water may flow through the wood boiler if its off which will cause the oil boiler to work harder than it needs to when it's on. You will only need a zone valve if you tie into the capped ends of the supply & return trunks. If you decide to TEE in where I show on my first diagram, you can just use the check valves. 

You could just put a simply manual ball valve where I show the zone valve and simply close the valve when you let the wood fire die out.


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## gregV (Oct 25, 2011)

Matt, .. So then what I am doing is reversing water flow through my OB with my Tarm continious circulator? Basically my same idea but in reverse it seems. Not adding "T"s is a good thing.  


Matt, this is exactly what I was thinking, ..using my existing circulators to kick on as dump zones. Can one circulator have more then one calling demand?


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## mattd860 (Oct 25, 2011)

"So then what I am doing is reversing water flow through my OB with my Tarm continious circulator?"  ---   Yes. When the wood boiler is hot and the circulator turns on, water will now flow backwards through the oil boiler. No big deal at all. 

"Can one circulator have more then one calling demand?" Yes. Just wire another 120v wire to the circulator(s). Or find a way to trip the relay that controls the circulator(s). Are your circulators on/off or variable speed?


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## ewdudley (Oct 25, 2011)

mattd860 said:
			
		

> Greg - I thought about it for a second and realized you will need an electric ZONE VALVE as noted in the drawing below. Otherwise, water may flow through the wood boiler if its off which will cause the oil boiler to work harder than it needs to when it's on. You will only need a zone valve if you tie into the capped ends of the supply & return trunks. If you decide to TEE in where I show on my first diagram, you can just use the check valves.
> 
> You could just put a simply manual ball valve where I show the zone valve and simply close the valve when you let the wood fire die out.



Definitely on the right track now.  

Earlier in the thread there was some concern about return temperature protection.  With continuous pumping through the two boilers it should simple enough to disable the load circulators whenever the boilers just start to get a little too cool, then the boiler loop keeps going maintaining even temperatures through the boilers until they're hot enough to enable the load circs again.  There's a fair amount of thermal mass there so it should cycle slowly enough.  The continuous boiler loop flow mixes with the system return water and help minimize any thermal shock potential.


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## gregV (Oct 26, 2011)

Been working. Chimney all done yesterday, easy peasy. 
Today did all the piping down around the oil burner and will finish the Tarm  section and should have it ready to run by tomorrow evening. Waiting for a Y strainer to come in tomorrow morning. 
Pics below. Please speak up if you see any issues so far. 
Arrows on the first pic just show flow. The red arrows on the second photo are TEEs I put in and am thinking that I will run a 1" copper line connecting them with a check valve so the water can only be drawn up to the Tarm IF the existing three zone circulators need more flow then the Taco 007 permit's.

Questions. I want to put the Y strainer on the hot water out line of the Tarm first, before anything else. Just after that will be the pressure relief valve. Then to the air bleeder and expansion tank. OK to have the Y strainer before the pressure relief? Just want to try and keep grit out of everything as I'm sure I will be picking up a lot from this older Tarm. 

Second. This Tarm also has a domestic hot water line running through it. Should I be utilizing this for anything, or would that be redundant and just draw too much heat?


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## ewdudley (Oct 26, 2011)

gregV said:
			
		

> The red arrows on the second photo are TEEs I put in and am thinking that I will run a 1" copper line connecting them with a check valve so the water can only be drawn up to the Tarm IF the existing three zone circulators need more flow then the Taco 007 permit's.


If the zone circs draw more than the boil-to-boiler circ, won't they just pull through the Buderus?  Which wouldn't be a problem, would it?


> OK to have the Y strainer before the pressure relief?


Seems doubtful that having anything before the relief would pass code.  I thought the relief normally has its own port on the boiler.


> Second. This Tarm also has a domestic hot water line running through it. Should I be utilizing this for anything, or would that be redundant and just draw too much heat?


If you have reliable city water then you might be able to use the Tarm DHW coil as a fail-safe cool-off circuit like the European boilers have, maybe even eliminate a passive dump zone, just an idea.

--ewd


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## gregV (Oct 26, 2011)

Eliot, 

True. Hard to completely wrap my head around everything that's going on. I see what you are saying.

As far as this Tarm goes, I don't see that there was ever a blow off attached to the boiler itself. I do see two places where I could put it, but... One has a plug that I just don't know if I could get out without the chance of messing things up. The other port has an Aquastat Well there, that is on the top of the boiler. Now I already have another Aquastat Well in the front that I was going to use for controlling the Taco. 
This is what I will be doing tomorrow. Heading down to my local plumbing supply and have then explain the controls, as I have not studied this yet. If I can use just the one Aquastat Well in front, then I may put the blowoff on the boiler top. 

I have well water here. I'll just prep the lines in case I can utilize them.


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## gregV (Oct 29, 2011)

Up and running as of this afternoon. Two very small leaks in the pipes which is a PIA. Will fix them after this cold spell leaves next week
I'm very happy with this Tarm! Unfortunately my wood is a bit too green, but this thing is humming. Maintaining 180-200 is easy with damper almost closed and the two air handlers going at the same time. 

Not a single hitch at this point (besides the two leaks). Bye Bye OIL! Have lots and lots of wood. My old wood stove had no issue with my wood, but I guess this downdraft is more sensitive to it. 

THANKS to ALL of you who got me through this. I ran into my heat guy who installed my oil system. Respected as one of the best in my area. He drew out exactly what those last drawings were, so it gave me a lot more confidence. He described it as a figure 8. 

Lots of snow tomorrow so I need to tend to my wood! This I am very unprepared. 

Greg V


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## ewdudley (Oct 29, 2011)

Congratulations!  

One week from first post to goodbye oil, that's got to be some kind of record.  

Kudos to Matt for taking the time to get you on the right track.

If the leaks are tolerable short term let them stew a while, it's not uncommon for them to seal up over a couple days.


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## willworkforwood (Oct 29, 2011)

Way to go Greg - great job to get that up and running well so fast!  Do you have a source of wood pallets?  If you do, they can be cut with a circular or chainsaw and thrown in, nails and all.  Mixing in pallets would balance out your green wood and give you a better fire (and less creosote).  Happy burning!


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