# Reworking a rusted out fireplace liner



## Russell Greim (Jan 7, 2013)

I am looking for some advice on how to handle a situation which has arisen over the last few years regarding a 33 year old fireplace in a 110 year old house.

The fireplace is an integral part of our home installed when my parents purchased the home in the late 70's.  It was a "Majestic" brand steel insert inside of a completely brick and mortar installation.  The house is all brick and there is no studding or combustibles that make contact with the fireplace until the chimney passes through the sofit on an outside wall.

About a year ago I bought the house I grew up in from my widowed mother and began to tackle a laundry list of issues across the property.  One of which was the fireplace.

About 8 years ago (roughly) my father and I cooked up a steel covering for his dilapidated and rusting liner.  We own a steel shop so we were able to design, cut, bend and weld thick steel plates over the existing liner.  We also made a new damper. I'm ashamed to admit it now, but our knowledge of fireplaces was extremely little and that has led to some other problems now.

This liner worked by allowing the sides of the fireplace to heat up and dual blowers move air across the liner to warm the room.  The fireplace has a smaller front opening and tempered glass doors.  I want to retain this heating setup if possible.  It is useful for warming the downstairs and for heating in emergencies.

However, after a sweep and inspection last year, it was made clear that the upper liner was shot and started working on a strategy to replace it.  The first step I took was to install a Lyemance damper and a chimney cap, something the chimney had never had (thus the rusting out of the liner).  This year, I wanted to make a liner extending from the insert we built up to the existing flue tile.  However I discovered that the smoke shelf was completely rusted away, and that actually trying to work through the damper hole was not going to happen.  I started formulating a new strategy.  

My thought was to remove the angled rear of the metal insert and coat the smoke chamber with Chamber Coat 2000 and work my way down to the remaining liner, installing metal as necessary to accomplish this.  In the process, essentially removing the smoke shelf and converting the fireplace to a more "Rumford"esque design.  I was using these two links as references as to how I would make the rear of the fireplace look:

http://www.woodheat.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=61
http://www.gulland.ca/fhs/openfireplaces.htm

You can see illustrations in both of these pieces that allude to a straight backed fireplace with no smoke shelf.  However, when I went to start working I discovered more problems, yet again.

The inside of the masonry "box" that the liner sits in is open at the sides which is where the blower/warming area lies.  With the smoke shelf and upper liner gone due to rusting, there is nothing closing the smoke chamber off from the part of the system which is open to the living area.

So now I am faced with a complete tear out of the metal (new and old) and rebuilding  of the liner.  My thought on this is as follows:

Cut out the entire metal liner.
Line as much of the masonry "box" as possible with foil backed ceramic blanketing.
Replace the metal plates separating the heating chambers from the fireplace.
Rebuild the fireplace using a straight back "Rumford"esque design as described above.
Transition the new metal fireplace liner to the smoke chamber using metal.
Reline the smoke chamber with Chamber Coat 2000 from the top of the metal to the bottom of the flue.

I've read this website for weeks working through some of my ideas and now I wanted to get some feedback from you folks.  I want to do this project myself not only because I feel I can, but for financial reasons as well.  I want to preserves the fireplace as is from an aesthetic perspective, and I do not want to do an insert.  I want to preserve the possibility of using the fireplace for emergency heat as the house is in a rural area and uses all electric heat which can not be run by a generator in a winter power outage.  I can power the fireplace blower, however.

I am a decent mason, I have access to metal working tools to cut bend and weld, and I have been doing stupidly large projects my whole life, so I'm not afraid of this thing.  I can post pictures later if you tell me what you want to see.

Thanks in advance for your input!


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## pen (Jan 7, 2013)

You are putting a lot of work in to something that is going to do a medicore at best job in regards to efficiency/heating for you compared to a freestanding wood stove placed in the fireplace or a insert. That said, it sounds like the goal is a fireplace no matter what and that you are aware of the losses versus gains in actual heat. The aesthetics of a fireplace you mention are hard to argue against.

In all, this is definitely a unique situation but it sounds like you have a good grasp of where you are now in terms of the problems. I think for you to get the best help possible here we are really going to need those pics you mentioned.

Welcome to the site and I give you credit for taking this on and wanting it done safely.

pen


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## Jags (Jan 7, 2013)

Double yes on the pics.
What is your ultimate end goal.  You looking for a fireplace or looking for heat (pick one)?


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## Russell Greim (Jan 7, 2013)

I will grab as many pictures as possible tonight when I get home.

I understand that there is no way I'm ever going to heat my home with this fireplace. I want it for general aesthetics and emergency heat only. I may wish to tackle heating with wood at some point in the future, but that will be on a modern unit tied into my furnace in the basement - not here.

I researched an insert last year, and the modifications to the existing fireplace, the cost, and the end benefits did not equate. This is the house that I grew up in, and that fireplace has always been the centerpiece of the living room. I cannot bring myself to start tearing out the beautiful brick arch and custom doors for the possibility of heating with wood a few weeks a year.

This is basically " How can I make this work and get as much heat as possible out of it (knowing that efficient is not a word I should use) and not kill myself or family in the process"


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## Jags (Jan 7, 2013)

Well...it sounds like you have a pretty firm grasp on what you are looking at.  If you are good at metal working, why not build it back to its original design?  Deviating from the original may have other implications when it comes to insurance, safety, etc.


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## Russell Greim (Jan 7, 2013)

I really have no objections to rebuilding its original design, except that I have no idea what that was.  I wasn't born when it was installed and never saw it, and so much of the thing has literally rusted into oblivion I have no idea what the structure above the damper looked like.  The internet, as useful as it is, has a start point, and it seems information about these old "Majestic" liners is virtually non-existent.  If I had drawings or even a sketch, I'd be all over it, but as it is, it seems I may have to forge my own path.  If I have to start from scratch on this, I'd like to gain as much efficiency as humanly possible in the process, and account for the new damper on the chimney.


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## Jags (Jan 7, 2013)

Got it. It may get more attention if you had "Majestic" and "fireplace liner" in the title. It will have a tendency to draw in others with the same setup.


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2013)

It seems like using steel instead of stainless steel was a flaw in the original liner design.


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## Russell Greim (Jan 7, 2013)

Using stainless, while more expensive, is entirely an option.  However, unless there is more to it, I've always felt the whole thing rusted out because of 25+ years of rain washing down the chimney.  Now that there is a top damper AND a cap, there will be no more water in there, unless of course it is raining when I burn .


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## Jags (Jan 7, 2013)

Do your homework if stainless is in the future.  Plain carbon steel puts up with the expansion and contraction a bunch different than 300 or 400 series stainless.  Stainless WILL be more prone to cracks unless done properly. (one reason you have never seen a stainless wood stove )


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2013)

Russell Greim said:


> Using stainless, while more expensive, is entirely an option. However, unless there is more to it, I've always felt the whole thing rusted out because of 25+ years of rain washing down the chimney. Now that there is a top damper AND a cap, there will be no more water in there, unless of course it is raining when I burn .


 
If well seasoned wood isn't being burned all the time, then (hot) moisture is coming from the fire as a by product of combustion. Creosote is slightly acidic and heat accelerates oxidation.

What is the throat size of the chimney? I was wondering if it would accommodate a large rigid stainless liner or not.


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