# pipes frozen



## ironspider (Jan 22, 2014)

Please help me,

due to my relentless burning of wood to save on oil, this last night of single digits has frozen my pipes according to slomins.

i have a two story home with two zones, zone 1 is the main floor where the wood burning insert is so that didn't go on all night.  My house sits on a 3 foot crawl space, most pipes are accessible.  I have most pipes covered with insulation.

I went down in the crawl space with a friend, I have a torch and a 1350 degree heat gun, we heated every pipe we can find and still no joy.  I'm afraid tonights single digit temps will worsen the prob and burst a pipe.  I've been working at this for hours, please give me some ideas.

I need help


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## jatoxico (Jan 22, 2014)

Can you put a heat source in the crawl space? Nothing that puts out CO, electric or something. Doesn't need too much.


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## ironspider (Jan 22, 2014)

I have an electric ceramic space heater, I can't imagine that would heat that large area, it's got to be 1300 sq ft


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## JustWood (Jan 22, 2014)

Torpedo heater and seal the crawl space off. 15 minutes and it'll be thawed.


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## jatoxico (Jan 22, 2014)

ironspider said:


> I have an electric ceramic space heater, I can't imagine that would heat that large area, it's got to be 1300 sq ft



If that's the trouble spot you just need to keep it above freezing and block any airflow.


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## Dune (Jan 22, 2014)

First, you need to open every faucet in the house, all the showers, flush the toilets, etc.

It can take a while. I used to defrost a lot of pipes with the portable welding machine, but I guess plumbers must have their own version now or something because I haven't done one in 30 years at least.


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## ironspider (Jan 22, 2014)

Dune said:


> First, you need to open every faucet in the house, all the showers, flush the toilets, etc.



I just can't imagine how that would have anything to do with the baseboard heating pipes.


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## ironspider (Jan 22, 2014)

jatoxico said:


> If that's the trouble spot you just need to keep it above freezing and block any airflow.



This sounds like my only option, I'll put the little space heater down there.


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## Dune (Jan 22, 2014)

ironspider said:


> I just can't imagine how that would have anything to do with the baseboard heating pipes.


Sorry, not paying enough attention.


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## ironspider (Jan 22, 2014)

And run the dryer, that vents down there too


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## jatoxico (Jan 22, 2014)

If you couldn't get it unfroze from the crawl space it's prob in a wall so at this point you just want to make sure it doesn't get worse. Possibly in place where it goes up from crawl space into unheated garage?? Or pipe passes from one room to another on an outside wall.


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## semipro (Jan 22, 2014)

ironspider said:


> And run the dryer, that vents down there too


I realize this is not important to you at the moment but...
The dryer exhaust may be handy for defrosting pipes but it may not be a good idea in general. 
You really don't want to add any extra moisture to a crawlspace unless its climate controlled and too dry.


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## semipro (Jan 22, 2014)

ironspider,
Do you know which zone has a frozen pipe or is nothing flowing through either zone?


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## semipro (Jan 22, 2014)

jatoxico said:


> If you couldn't get it unfroze from the crawl space it's prob in a wall


. 
If the blockage is in a wall you might be able to point that ceramic heater at nearest baseboard unit to try and thaw the pipe.  Remove the cover first to aid heat transfer.  Use the heat gun if needed.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 22, 2014)

semipro said:


> ironspider,
> Do you know which zone has a frozen pipe or is nothing flowing through either zone?


\

This. Figure out which zone the freeze is in and then work concentrate on the zone that is frozen.  Can you drain your zones?  This might stop further damage.

Run the other zone also since you don't want to freeze that zone.


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## Dave A. (Jan 22, 2014)

I found my freeze ups pretty quickly with the IR thermo. Just move the laser beam over the pipe run til you get a below freezing reading.  Then use a hair dryer or heat gun on the area.  If you can't find it then just put a heater in the area.  You say 1300 sf, still it's only a couple feet high so it's not that many cu ft. and you just need to get the area warmer.  Most likely though it's in a location(s) getting a blast of cold air from an opening to the outside.

In the future if you don't want to burn the oil, you could disable the burner firing mechanism and just make sure the circulator(s) run when the temps get real cold.


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## seabert (Jan 23, 2014)

Many good ideas here and I just thought I would chime in with a few suggestions...

Is it your HW heat circulating off the furnace that is frozen? If so did you check the circulator to see if it is operating?

Some systems are closed and separate from HW used for sinks toilets etc. 

If it is just household water then as other have said focus the heat on any pipe in an exterior wall. I had a pipe freeze and opened the cabinet under the sink that was on an outside wall. I put an electric heater in the cabinet and a hour or two later she opened up. 

Best thing to also do is open all faucets just a tad to relieve pressure.


In most crawl spaces there are vents that allow air to circulate and keep things dry. Check to see if any of the pipes are near a vent and make sure it is warm.

Best of luck! Let us know how you resolved it.


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## ironspider (Jan 23, 2014)

I sealed up the crawl last night and put a space heater in there and also ran the dryer venting down there, in the morning it was 43 degrees.  

This "freeze" is only in the baseboard heating system for 1 zone, hot water is not affected.  However I was tinkering with the boiler and can't get the zone 1 valve to open.  The slomins guy checked and said everything was fine and determined pipes frozen.  Now i'm second guessing his diagnosis and called them back out to check the valve.  I hope thats it.


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## stee6043 (Jan 23, 2014)

Does your heating system have an autofill valve?  If so, you may want to disable that valve until you get this figured out.  If you end up bursting a pipe you're going to have water damage if your fill valve actuates (assuming the break is up stream of the block).


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## ironspider (Jan 23, 2014)

Thankfully any burst would result in the water dropping into the crawl space which is dirt.  

Slomins came out again and confirmed it was not the valve and he is sure it's frozen somewhere.  I have a lot of work to do down there, I've already spent hours and it looks like i'll be at it all night again.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 23, 2014)

If the autofill is enabled when a pipe bursts, you will be continually trying to refill the heating system.  If you don't catch it right away that could leave quite a mess with water continually flowing out at 80 PSI.


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## Dave A. (Jan 23, 2014)

If it hasn't been already checked, I'd also check the baseboard runs in the the living area on the outside walls particularly where they turn and go under doorways or penetrations going back into walls -- especially wherever cold air has an opportunity to enter.  If you can find and defrost these areas quickly enough you can prevent pipe damage and resulting water damage.

Edit: in the basement/crawlspace with insulated pipe, particularly check the areas of gaps and seams in the insulation (prolly already done -- but, that's where I had problems when I had pipe runs in the outside-of-the-envelope attic before I relocated them).

Ditto on turning off the autofill supply valve until the problem is corrected.


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## Dave A. (Jan 23, 2014)

ironspider said:


> the crawl space which is dirt.





semipro said:


> The dryer exhaust may be handy for defrosting pipes but it may not be a good idea in general.
> You really don't want to add any extra moisture to a crawlspace unless its climate controlled and too dry.



Exactly.  So the bare dirt floor under the house is not a good idea.  At a minimum it should be sealed under heavy plastic sheeting.

Edit: Also, if you have a full service repair contract with Slomins, I'd read it to make sure it excludes this sort of thing -- locating and defrosting the freeze up.


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## flyingcow (Jan 23, 2014)

Just my 2 cents. If you've never unthawed pipes before.....torches and high temp heat guns usually will make you wish you hadn't.   Pipes tend to split wide open


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## firefighterjake (Jan 23, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> Just my 2 cents. If you've never unthawed pipes before.....torches and high temp heat guns usually will make you wish you hadn't.   Pipes tend to split wide open



Hehheh . . . "unthawed" or "thawed"?


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## Dix (Jan 23, 2014)

J, turn off the feed valve from the boiler to the zone, for now. Atleast until you find the freeze up. 

Ask me how I know this. The flood was epic


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## ironspider (Jan 23, 2014)

Ok, fixed thanx for all the advice.   Borrowed a jet? Heater from a friend and that got the crawl space to what seamed like 90 degrees in no time, a friend and I took some torches to some trouble spots (un-insulated) and boom heat is on. 

Re-insulated every pipe, some with the really good rubber stuff and praying this doesn't happen again. I'm now so invested in this wood heating I need a few trouble free years to recoup my spending. 

Again thanks for all the help and advice


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## semipro (Jan 23, 2014)

Glad it worked out for you.  
It may be overkill but you can also apply some thermostatically controlled heat tape to the pipes before installing the insulation.  You don't even have to connect them to power at this point but can connect via an extension cord if you have problems in the future.


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## ironspider (Jan 23, 2014)

Actually I want to know what I just used, I didn't look at the brand but he said it took kerosene or diesel fuel. 

I gotta get me one, what are they called?  I see a lot that are kerosene but not diesel.


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## semipro (Jan 23, 2014)

Torpedo heater?


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## homebrewz (Jan 24, 2014)

Around here they always called them "salamanders". Glad it all worked out. 

I think the heat tape is a good idea. You might also look at sealing up any air infiltration points where outside air can draft on pipes.


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## flyingcow (Jan 24, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Hehheh . . . "unthawed" or "thawed"?



OK , mister English teacher. Thanks for the correction. Just like my wife.

I expected you to mention using a torch sometimes ends up with a visit form your guys.


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## woodgeek (Jan 24, 2014)

Didn't a member around here sell a little unit to attach to your boiler that would energize the circulator for a little while every x hours, to avoid freeze-up for woodburners?


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## firefighterjake (Jan 24, 2014)

flyingcow said:


> OK , mister English teacher. Thanks for the correction. Just like my wife.
> 
> I expected you to mention using a torch sometimes ends up with a visit form your guys.


 

Sorry Flying Cow . . . couldn't help myself.

And yeah . . . torch often equals a visit from us . . . did a story yesterday with the ABC affiliate and a local country station down here on that in fact.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 24, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Didn't a member around here sell a little unit to attach to your boiler that would energize the circulator for a little while every x hours, to avoid freeze-up for woodburners?


 

Bridgerman . . . Bearmountaindesign.com . . . think that's the guy you're thinking about.


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## woodgeek (Jan 24, 2014)

firefighterjake said:


> Bridgerman . . . Bearmountaindesign.com . . . think that's the guy you're thinking about.



yup: http://www.bearmountaindesign.com/

that is the one I was thinking of.  Seems like the ultimate insurance, rather than guessing where to put tapes.


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## ironspider (Jan 24, 2014)

homebrewz said:


> Around here they always called them "salamanders". Glad it all worked out.
> 
> I think the heat tape is a good idea. You might also look at sealing up any air infiltration points where outside air can draft on pipes.



I'm working on sealing any drafts today, there are a couple minor ones.  I'm also going to replace some of the old insulation with new, considering it only cost around $1 for a 6ft length.

I'm not going with the tape, too much pipe to cover.


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## Don2222 (Jan 24, 2014)

There is a new product for protecting water pipes down to -30 degrees called Ice-Loc
http://www.iceloc.com/How_To.html

Also on about.com are 8 pages of some good tips on frozen pipes in your home.

http://homerepair.about.com/od/plumbingrepair/ss/thaw_frzn_pipe.htm

From Page 5 of 8
Preventing Frozen Pipes
There are a few things you can do to prevent the problem of freezing pipes from occurring again.

* Leave the faucet drip slightly as a trickle. The dripping water will keep the water in the pipe from freezing.
* Open kitchen base cabinet and let room air circulate.
* Open kitchen base cabinet and place a small portable heater near or in it to heat the pipes
* Wrap the problem pipe with electrical heat tape.
* Insulate the problem pipes with foam insulation wrap, especially those that run through unheated spaces.
* Temper the currently unheated crawlspace by placing a heater in the crawlspace. You just need to elevate the crawlspace temperature to modestly above freezing, about 40Â°F.


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## jharkin (Jan 25, 2014)

semipro said:


> Glad it worked out for you.
> It may be overkill but you can also apply some thermostatically controlled heat tape to the pipes before installing the insulation.  You don't even have to connect them to power at this point but can connect via an extension cord if you have problems in the future.



Good idea, its not overkill at all - all the insulation in the world won't help those pipe since they never get any warm water circulating through them ever.

This is why I hate it when builders put mechanical systems in uninsulated vented attics and crawls. And outside walls too. If all system where build inside the thermal envelope of the building we would never have these problems!


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## semipro (Jan 25, 2014)

ironspider said:


> I'm not going with the tape, too much pipe to cover.


Just to be clear you wouldn't have to wrap pipes with tape.  You just run it linearly along the length of the pipe under the insulation you're installing.  The small amount of heat added by the tape would be held in by the insulation preventing freezing.


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## woodgeek (Jan 25, 2014)

or you could just put a little timer on your boiler to circulate for a couple minutes every few hours.


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## semipro (Jan 25, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> or you could just put a little timer on your boiler to circulate for a couple minutes every few hours.


With a thermostatic control set near freezing so that you're not wasting pump or fuel energy.


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## ewdudley (Jan 25, 2014)

Don2222 said:


> Leave the faucet drip slightly as a trickle. The dripping water will keep the water in the pipe from freezing.


(If you've got plenty of water, and you know your drain won't build up with ice and freeze solid.)


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## 1kzwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

spider said:


> Actually I want to know what I just used, I didn't look at the brand but he said it took kerosene or diesel fuel.
> 
> I gotta get me one, what are they called?  I see a lot that are kerosene but not diesel.


I have salamander heater that uses propane under$150 at farm supply store


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## 1kzwoman (Jan 25, 2014)

jharkin said:


> Good idea, its not overkill at all - all the insulation in the world won't help those pipe since they never get any warm water circulating through them ever.
> 
> This is why I hate it when builders put mechanical systems in uninsulated vented attics and crawls. And outside walls too. If all system where build inside the thermal envelope of the building we would never have these problems!


+1


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## bridgerman (Jan 28, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> yup: http://www.bearmountaindesign.com/
> 
> that is the one I was thinking of.  Seems like the ultimate insurance, rather than guessing where to put tapes.



Thanks Guys,

Homebrewz, a ThermGuard on your thermostat will prevent the problem in the future.  You can program it to turn on your boiler for a couple of minutes every few hours and your pipes will never freeze again.  Installs in 5 minutes.  A pretty simple solution once your pipes are thawed of course!  I'm glad you were able to get them goin' without a mess in the basement.  My basement flooded since I wasn't home to turn off the refill valve.  The water kept coming until the well drained.  Lucky for me I have a poor producing well 

John


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## G-rott (Feb 17, 2014)

Salamander or Torpedo heaters that run on Kerosene are less "stinky" than running on fuel oil, hot a big deal in an emergency but if you want to use one for temporary shop or garage heat it makes a difference especially if you have sensitivity to isocrynates(sp?).


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