# I want to purchase a wood burning insert, but no one will sell me/install one?



## KnightFire (Dec 4, 2010)

I currently have a prefabricated Heatilator 42C unit serving duty as my "fireplace."  This was built/installed by the builder of my house 3 years ago.  Now, I want to install a Quadrafire 5100, or a Lopi Freedom Bay, or a Regal I300; however I can't find anyone willing to deliver/install it, and when I did finally find ONE dealer willing to deliver and install it, they stated they won't sell me the unit because my fireplace wasn't built to withstand the amounts of heat the wood burning insert would put out.

I understand his point, but is it accurate?

I also looked into a Napoleon 1150P freestanding unit, but it would still cost $8,000 to have one installed, because it too would need a chimney built to the roof and "chased-in."

All of this is leaving me scratching my head, how do people get these units installed in their houses in the first place?  Does everyone but me have a true masonry fireplace?  Or does everyone ignore the fact their chimneys "weren't built to withstand the temperatures a wood burning insert puts out"?  I have a hard time accepting the later, but in this economy I also have a hard time of someone refusing a $4,000.00 sale.

The entire point was to get something that burned a lot less wood (which means less felling, bucking, and splitting for me), something that would heat much better, and something I can use to cook on during an emergency.

So, tell me, am I screwed?  No one wants to sell me or install what I want.  Do I keep looking, or are they right?  Am I stuck with this pre-fab builder grade POS Heatilator?
I've taken the Heatilator as far as it can go by adding a fireback, blower, doors, etc...there isn't anything more I can do to improve it's heating capability, is there?


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## cmonSTART (Dec 4, 2010)

Installing an insert into a factory built fireplace can be a hornet's nest of legal and liability issues.  Often they are not built with the proper clearances to allow for the heat an insert produces.  It may be possible to install one in your fireplace, but you will have to do some research on the maker of your fireplace and see if THEY approve of any specific make/model of insert to be installed in their fireplace, and then you will need to check with the insert maker to make sure the insert can be installed in YOUR SPECIFIC prefab fireplace.  It's a real pain in the rear, but there are reasons for it.  

As to why people have these in their homes, they are quick and cheap for builders to install and they add value to the house.  Unfortunately they're pretty much useless IMO.


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## BrotherBart (Dec 4, 2010)

Lopi Freedom Bay manual:

"WARNING: Do not install this fireplace insert into a
factory-built metal (Z.C.) fireplace."

Quadrafire 5100i manual:

"Approved for installation and use in factory built zero-clearance fireplaces conforming to minimum fire chamber specifications (USA only)"

Regency I3100 manual page eight:

"INSTALLATION INTO A
FACTORY BUILT
FIREPLACE"


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## cmonSTART (Dec 4, 2010)

The scary thing is, BB did that all from memory.  

 :bug:


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## KnightFire (Dec 4, 2010)

cmonSTART said:
			
		

> As to why people have these in their homes, they are quick and cheap for builders to install and they add value to the house.  Unfortunately they're pretty much useless IMO.



Yah, I'm finding that out 3 years too late.

The same company that built the chimney and installed the Heatilator is the same company telling me I can't install an insert.

Thanks for the response!


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## jharkin (Dec 4, 2010)

KnightFire said:
			
		

> All of this is leaving me scratching my head, how do people get these units installed in their houses in the first place?  Does everyone but me have a true masonry fireplace?



When did prefab fireplaces start to become common in home construction... the late 70s/early 80's I think?  And I believe that something like 50% of all houses in this country are older than 1980.


So Id guess there are a LOT of houses out there with real brick chimneys....


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## FyreBug (Dec 4, 2010)

Black Moose made some good points. As a Mfg we are active in reading various leglislation & code regarding this issue. As far as I understand the language for how this should be handled is quite vague by the safety bodies. If you want me to dig the chapter & verse I can look them up. 

For our part we state that as long as the original ZC Mfg states that it's ok to install an insert we're good to go. 

Common sense should also prevail... If there is no objection having a roaring fire with a naked flame inside a ZC why should placing an insulated insert inside it? The insert wall typically would not touch the ZC walls and even if it did will not reach the temps from an open fire.


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## KnightFire (Dec 4, 2010)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Lopi Freedom Bay manual:
> 
> "WARNING: Do not install this fireplace insert into a
> factory-built metal (Z.C.) fireplace."
> ...



This is great info, I dug into the Regency manual at:  http://www.regency-fire.com/RegencyFireplaces/files/0f/0f629ad1-2185-4331-a8b3-f82b3baf3b6f.pdf and found that you CAN install in ZC prefab units, IF you meet certain criteria, so I've recontacted the company that installed my ZC unit and fireplace, emailed them the .pdf files and am waiting to hear back from them.  They were very frank about not being able to install ANY type of solid fuel burning unit into a pre-fab unit, this data contradicts that, so they were a bit shocked.  I found much of the same information for Quadrafire http://www.quadrafire.com/~/media/Files/Quadrafire/Installation Manuals/man_5100iACT.ashx

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction!  At least now I know they CAN be installed in ZC units, IF they meet the criteria.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


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## cmonSTART (Dec 4, 2010)

Do you have your fireplace's manual?


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## pyro68 (Dec 4, 2010)

There are lopi units rated for zero clearance (pre-fab) fireplaces, the revere is one; however it does have approx 10" of the insert into the room, typically would need the front legs and an extended hearth.  If you are willing to do a little work (changing openings) i would recomend considering the Kozy Heat Z-42.  That is essentially a woodstove in a zero clearance case.  Bis makes some great units as well.  This would entail removing the existing zero clearance fireplace & chimney and replacing it with another unit, the advantage is that you end up with a much larger fireplace as well as a unit designed to be in the wall.  The manufactures web site will generally let you search for a local dealer.


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## KnightFire (Dec 4, 2010)

cmonSTART said:
			
		

> Do you have your fireplace's manual?



Yes, it's how I know it's UL 127 rated, my model is the Heatilator A42C--if that helps at all.  What I don't know is the steel chimney liner rating...


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## Elderthewelder (Dec 4, 2010)

Country/Lennox make 2 inserts that according to them are approved for Z/C box's , I have the smaller C160 installed in my Majestic Z/C box,  they also have a slightly larger model

Here is a page from their installation manual


The Striker™ C/A160 insert must only be installed in a zero clearance
factory-built fireplace using 6” (152 mm) stainless steel pipe extending
from the insert’s flue into the chimney of the fireplace. For optimum
safety and performance we recommend a full length stainless steel
liner directly connected to the insert’s flue outlet.

The Striker C/A160 insert must only be installed in a zero clearance
factory-built fireplace that is structurally sound. Fireboxes or chimneys
that have flaws, burnouts, or warping must be replaced or repaired prior
to installation. Check with your fireplace manufacturer if any problems
exist.

All convection vents and louvers must be left unmodified and unobstructed.

The Striker C/A160 insert can only be installed in the following brands of
factory-built zero clearance fireplaces: LENNOX, SUPERIOR, HEATILATOR,
MAJESTIC, MARTIN, PREWAY, MARCO, TEMCO and FMI.
The fireplace cavity must be 36” (914 mm) in width, 21” (533 mm) in
height and 14” (356 mm) in depth. Installation in larger size fireboxes
of the same brands is permissible.

Installations into other brands of the same size is permissible only with
approval from local building officials.

Modifications allowed to the factory-built fireplace are as follows:
- Remove the damper
- Remove the smoke shelf or smoke baffle
- Remove ember catches
- Remove viewing screen/curtain
- Remove side and rear bricks
- Remove the fire grate
- Remove doors


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## KnightFire (Dec 4, 2010)

pyro68 said:
			
		

> There are lopi units rated for zero clearance (pre-fab) fireplaces, the revere is one; however it does have approx 10" of the insert into the room, typically would need the front legs and an extended hearth.  If you are willing to do a little work (changing openings) i would recomend considering the Kozy Heat Z-42.  That is essentially a woodstove in a zero clearance case.  Bis makes some great units as well.  This would entail removing the existing zero clearance fireplace & chimney and replacing it with another unit, the advantage is that you end up with a much larger fireplace as well as a unit designed to be in the wall.  The manufactures web site will generally let you search for a local dealer.



This is the type I was looking at, but wanting a bit bigger unit/larger firebox, with longer burn times, etc, is why I chose the larger models.  The fact that it sticks out 10" is very attractive to me, as I DO want to cook on it, should the need arise.  Honestly Lopi was/is my first choice, only because of the reading of reviews on this forum, but if it's not terribly obvious that I'm a complete newb with regards to inserts, the following question will prove it:

OK, stupid question time, for a new wood burning insert, does it go INSIDE the current A42C Heatiliator that I have, or does it REPLACE the Heatilator entirely?


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## pyro68 (Dec 4, 2010)

Any insert rated to go into your existing unit will most likely have a smaller firebox than what you are looking for, that's why i would recommend at least considering removing the current Heatilator and installing something down the line of a Kozy Heat Z-42, FPX makes a more elaborate version, but what i would recommend is an epa, controlled combustion zero clearance fireplace.


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## KnightFire (Dec 4, 2010)

pyro68 said:
			
		

> Any insert rated to go into your existing unit will most likely have a smaller firebox than what you are looking for, that's why i would recommend at least considering removing the current Heatilator and installing something down the line of a Kozy Heat Z-42, FPX makes a more elaborate version, but what i would recommend is an epa, controlled combustion zero clearance fireplace.



Any idea what something like this would cost?  I went to their website and couldn't find a model that would allow me to cook on it, should I need to.  This is fairly important feature for me.  But it DOES look like a great replacement for my POS Heatliator...I never knew there we so many dang choices out there  Now I'm giving something like this serious thought...I have other ways to cook (grill, camp stove, etc), should I need to, but I enjoy have redundant capability.


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## FyreBug (Dec 4, 2010)

You can cook on most stoves & inserts on the market. However, in your case I think you mean something that extend more into the room. If that is the case you may also want to look at the Regency Hearth Heater.

Just google the models you are interested in and you'll find a price range. I would think what you're looking for is in the 2k + range.


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## Fechmup (Dec 5, 2010)

For what it's worth, my wife and I had a Kozy Heat Z42 installed the end of last February and we are very happy with it's performance.  The unit easily heats our 1800sq ft ranch - furnace off.  If I'm estimating correctly, we should use about 3.5 cords of wood a year, with our thermostat reading about 80 degrees.  

The stove shop that sold us the unit did the install; built up a raised hearth, adjusted a header, and installed the new chimney pipe in a half day.  I had a mason complete the hearth and surrounding stonework.

They're aren't many options for those of us with prefab setups without getting into some more serious renovations or moving the location of the unit all together.  The Z42 is keeping us warm and happy.  If you'd like, I'll put up some pictures when I get home from work this evening.

Hope this helps.

Kevin


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## santacruzbluz (Dec 5, 2010)

Have you looked at any of the Kuma models?


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## Install fire 1 (Dec 5, 2010)

As fyre bug stated, the regency hearth heater is a great solution to the cooking and space problem.

I would be careful of whats under your hearth with that particular unit. Typically wood framing and not solid stone.

A hearth mounted stove such as a rear vented jotul, or regency hampton is a nice solution, as you will only have to modify your hearth to get the room and spark protection out front. 

Plus they look cool, and you can have a nice cover plate made up to cover the old heatilator in behind.

Installing wood inserts into factory built ZC's is no no in my opinion. They are typically wrapped in pink insulation, because builders cant figure out how to create a thermal break with proper firestops. 

I would worry about the clearances of the existing wood zero. The insert will produce much higher levels of heat compared to an open fire in your wood zero. 

If you want big heat, take out the old and put in a new wood zero, RSF or FP 90 regency make nice clean heaters.


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## KnightFire (Dec 5, 2010)

OK, I'm more confused than ever, it's great that so many of you responded.

I finally got an email back from the dealer and they stated that while I could use an insert, they wouldn't do it.  So I'm right back to square one again.

If any of you know of a *specific model* that can be used within a UL 127 rated, Model:  A42C Heatilator (42"Wide in the front, 30 7/8" wide in the back---22 3/4"Deep---23 3/8" Height), please advise, I'd very much appreciate being pointed in the right direction.  As far as I can tell, I can use darn near any insert on the market, I have more than enough room to use any of the Regency insert models, and they state their models CAN be installed inside my Heatilator, IF I could figure out what kind of chimney liner I have!  As far as I can figure out, it has to be UL 1777 rated.  I have no clue how to determine what mine is rated.

It looks more like I'll need to find a dealer who will actually come out and take a look at what I have, then suggest a model.  I find it very difficult to believe that I'm TRYING to give someone my money, and no one will take it.  Now, is it because they are afraid of installing an insert inside a ZC Heatilator; because most models have instructions that say it can be done, is it really THAT risky?  I can't imagine a corporation giving instructions for something that would burn peoples homes down, but I'm certainly not willing to bet my house on it.  I've still not had any luck trying to figure out what my chimney is made of.

Again, thanks everyone


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## Lighting Up (Dec 5, 2010)

KnightFire said:
			
		

> pyro68 said:
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Don't forget the Avalon Pendelton Don't know if it is approve for your insert mine was a MAJESTIC has a great flat top for cooking. 

Your not going to get a really big box it just the nature of putting it in a ZC. But the heat will definitely be better 70% better. I too wish before I built this house 10 years ago I checked sites like this out...

Would cost around $10,000 to rip out the ZC and re-install so a $3000 insert w/liner and all installed sounded better. If I change my mind in the future the insert it has legs to make it a free standing unit for say the basement.

It's funny I could fix 5-7 logs in my ZC and burn the wood and never get the heat but with the Avalon I can fix 3 small log and heat my total house like on a day like today...snow storm temps around 27f outside...inside 72f 

If yours can have a insert, get one, you won't regret it...I know I was using a ZC for 10 years what a waste.

md


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## Trail_Time (Dec 7, 2010)

If you have ever seen what the heatilator looks like not installed, I personally would not put an insert designed for a masonry fireplace into the heatilator.  It is basically a sheetmetal box with some refractory brick liner.  I removed one from my home and doubt that it even weighed 150 lbs.  You might never have a problem, but I would not chance it. 

As others have suggested a zero clearance EPA fireplace would be a good solution.  The FPX 36 uses an air cooled chimney and would likely fit in your existing chase if you have enough depth.  FPX 36 is 42"W x 41"H and 26"D your heatilator required 49"W 41.5"H 23"D for framing so its very close.  The FPX would not allow you to cook on it but does produce tremendous amounts of heat.


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## par0thead151 (Dec 7, 2010)

i have a ZC fireplace.
and a insert.
the "enviro venice 1700" insert is ZC rated.
look into that one.it is the largest i was able to find that is rated for a ZC fireplace.


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## tjwarren (Dec 7, 2010)

Knightfire for what it's worth a year and a half ago I had no idea what fireplace insert was. Only until I started wondering if I could actually make my zc fireplace produce heat did I stumble upon this site. Now this is my second year heating my 1600sqft rancher with wood and after wearing out the search button and measuring and studying clearance to combustibles and k value,micore board, how to build a hearth correctly I installed my Enviro Kodiak into my Tempco zc firebox and extended the hearth for a little more than 3k. I sleep well at night knowing I had done my homework so be patient and use this resource you can find your answers here.


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## polaris (Dec 7, 2010)

Contact a Jotul dealer all their stoves and inserts are rated for connection to a zc fireplace.(must add liner and observe proper clearances).


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## par0thead151 (Dec 7, 2010)

polaris said:
			
		

> Contact a Jotul dealer all their stoves and inserts are rated for connection to a zc fireplace.(must add liner and observe proper clearances).




dont forget enviro dealers as well 
i shopped around for a ZC last year and found the enviro to have a larger fire box and higher BTU output.
however your ZC size will determine if you can fit a Enviro venice


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## KnightFire (Dec 7, 2010)

par0thead151 said:
			
		

> i have a ZC fireplace.
> and a insert.
> the "enviro venice 1700" insert is ZC rated.
> look into that one.it is the largest i was able to find that is rated for a ZC fireplace.



Thanks for the tip!  I looked into it and the only company around me that sells and installs these is the very same company I mentioned earlier and they refuse to install any insert into any ZC unit.


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## par0thead151 (Dec 7, 2010)

KnightFire said:
			
		

> par0thead151 said:
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call the mfg, see if their units go into ZC units.
if so have the MFG slap some sense into your local dealer.
do it diplomatically so they dont hold a grudge.


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## KnightFire (Dec 7, 2010)

par0thead151 said:
			
		

> KnightFire said:
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I've already proven to them that several makes/models of inserts can be installed via factory literature, I spoke with the manager himself and he admitted that it could be done after reading all the .pdf files I emailed to him, they simply refuse to do it.

I've found 5 other places, that sell inserts, I'm waiting for call backs from each.  I'm no longer going by make/model type to choose a dealer, now I'm simply going by who ever even sells inserts then calling them to see if they will or will not sell/install an insert to me, which is a pretty sad commentary if you ask me.  I'm trying to spend a LOT of money, no one wants it, or if they do, they refuse to do ANY work for it.  I guess I'll chose a model from the stock of which ever dealer will sell/install a unit to me...which IMHO is pathetic.


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## polaris (Dec 8, 2010)

Stick with it. These installs are safe and manufacturer/code compliant if done correctly with an approved model. Keep us posted on your progress(or lack thereof).
    joe


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## par0thead151 (Dec 8, 2010)

KnightFire said:
			
		

> par0thead151 said:
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i can relate.
the first 2 chuckleheads that came to quote me on installs gave me bad news. the first said it was impossible to put a insert in my ZC. and that i would have to knock out part of my chimney, have that made larger, and redo a lot of the materials inside the house around the hearth. quoted me just over $10,000 for the work. i did not even humor them with a response once i got the quote.(i suppose a nice house made them think they could pad their quote by 2-3 fold.)

now comes the second installer. he says sure we can get you a insert in there, but he refused to look at the larger models, and insisted that the smallest insert would heat my 3000 SQ ft home just fine. his quote was also high for the install (over 1400$) and stove price was above msrp

the third one was the charm, and a enviro dealer.
which just so happened to be the largest sized ZC rated insert i could find to fit in my ZC fireplace.


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## FPX Dude (Dec 8, 2010)

I looked at putting an insert into a ZC as well.  I found that I would either have to extend the hearth (wifey would not approve), or be limited to a much smaller insert.  Considering a smaller insert you are limited in fire box size which affects acceptable log sizes, burn time, heat output etc.  Looks like you have beautiful rock work which you may not want covered up with the shrouds going around an insert either.  For me I'm real particular about how it's looks in the room and considered more modern sleek looks or rustic appeal.  Also, consider how the cords from blowers and the like look when hanging out the side.  

So, here's what I did, get a cardboard box roughly the size and dimension's of what you're considering, paint it the color you're think'n of, then get a bigger piece to make it look like the shroud or whatever, and put it in your ZC so you can see what you'd be up to.  Pretty cheap way to see the whole picture.  It made to decide to just rip out the ZC and in went the FPX!


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## par0thead151 (Dec 8, 2010)

FPX Dude said:
			
		

> I looked at putting an insert into a ZC as well.  I found that I would either have to extend the hearth (wifey would not approve), or be limited to a much smaller insert.  Considering a smaller insert you are limited in fire box size which affects acceptable log sizes, burn time, heat output etc.  Looks like you have beautiful rock work which you may not want covered up with the shrouds going around an insert either.  For me I'm real particular about how it's looks in the room and considered more modern sleek looks or rustic appeal.  Also, consider how the cords from blowers and the like look when hanging out the side.
> 
> So, here's what I did, get a cardboard box roughly the size and dimension's of what you're considering, paint it the color you're think'n of, then get a bigger piece to make it look like the shroud or whatever, and put it in your ZC so you can see what you'd be up to.  Pretty cheap way to see the whole picture.  It made to decide to just rip out the ZC and in went the FPX!



just out of curiosity, how much did that set you back.


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## Mad Tom (Dec 8, 2010)

Not sure what you can put in there. I had a zc fireplace with just sheet rock  and a mantle. I had to tear the zc out, sheet rock over the opening and drag a new hearth out into the room. Now it looks like I never had a fireplace.


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## KnightFire (Dec 8, 2010)

Mad Tom said:
			
		

> Not sure what you can put in there. I had a zc fireplace with just sheet rock  and a mantle. I had to tear the zc out, sheet rock over the opening and drag a new hearth out into the room. Now it looks like I never had a fireplace.



Well, I found a dealer, a really really great dealer/installer who walked me through the possibilities and varying processes and I think what you just mentioned is the way we will go.   I never even considered it a possibility, until this gentleman brought it up.  I'm really impressed with him, we must have spoke on the phone for nearly an hour, discussing various options to attacking the problem.  I never knew there were so many, I couldn't be happier that I found him, after calling SEVEN other "dealers."

He is DEFINITELY getting my business, now we just have to figure out if we will do as you did, or replace the insert entirely with a far more efficient unit.


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## santacruzbluz (Dec 8, 2010)

KnightFire said:
			
		

> Mad Tom said:
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Excellent! This is what you are looking for. You can always find the right guy if you keep looking. Glad it worked out.


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## FyreBug (Dec 9, 2010)

"I've found 5 other places, that sell inserts, I'm waiting for call backs from each.  I'm no longer going by make/model type to choose a dealer, now I'm simply going by who ever even sells inserts then calling them to see if they will or will not sell/install an insert to me, which is a pretty sad commentary if you ask me.  I'm trying to spend a LOT of money, no one wants it, or if they do, they refuse to do ANY work for it.  I guess I'll chose a model from the stock of which ever dealer will sell/install a unit to me...which IMHO is pathetic."

Have you tried Pool & Ski Stop out of Winchester? They carry Enerzone, Harman, Jotul among others.


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## FPX Dude (Dec 9, 2010)

par0thead151 said:
			
		

> FPX Dude said:
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So, not including price of FPX and chimney, and:

To the tune of that 'ol MasterCard commercial... 
Cost of me rip'n the POS ZC out myself - $0
Cost of my handy construction buddy using a sawzall to cut out drywall and other junk in the chase - $Case of beer  (it was Budweiser.  Hey, he's in construction and that's what he loves, ha!)
Cost of install from a "hungry" craigslist installer who works at the local hearth store and does installs on the side - $350
Cost of drywall, hardibacker, marble and install - $850
Watching the flames and feeling the nice heat this baby throws off - $$$ PRICELESS $$$

Plus, when I was doing research on my options, I found this wonderful site and have come to know all of you...It's my favorite place


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## KnightFire (Dec 9, 2010)

FyreBug said:
			
		

> "I've found 5 other places, that sell inserts, I'm waiting for call backs from each.  I'm no longer going by make/model type to choose a dealer, now I'm simply going by who ever even sells inserts then calling them to see if they will or will not sell/install an insert to me, which is a pretty sad commentary if you ask me.  I'm trying to spend a LOT of money, no one wants it, or if they do, they refuse to do ANY work for it.  I guess I'll chose a model from the stock of which ever dealer will sell/install a unit to me...which IMHO is pathetic."
> 
> Have you tried Pool & Ski Stop out of Winchester? They carry Enerzone, Harman, Jotul among others.



Actually, they were one of the 5 I was waiting to hear from, they never returned my call.


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## jtp10181 (Dec 9, 2010)

There is no way you will fit a 5100i into an A42C unless you hack it apart, which would be very very bad.

2700i would fit for sure. Maybe a 4100i


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## sureman (Dec 12, 2010)

Knightfire, I am in the exact same position as you with an A42C.  I also happen to be a stone's throw away from you across the river in MD.  I have been trying to figure out how to make use of my POS prefab for quite some time.  I have tons of wood on my property and an electric bill that kills us in the winter.  I almost had decided on a pellet insert, but I just worry about all of the parts that can go wrong and again I have tons of free wood to burn.  After lurking on this site for quite some time and contacting a couple of members, I have decided to install an Enviro Kodiak 1700 insert into my prefab.  The unit should fit perfectly and has a good size firebox and btu output.  I will be installing an insulated liner and from what others have said, I can make the connection to the insert from inside the insert which should help.  This is my first post, but as I move forward, I hope to post my progress to give back a bit to this great forum.  Thanks to all contributors to help get me to this point.


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## thechimneysweep (Dec 12, 2010)

Whenever someone tells us they want us to install an insert in their zero-clearance fireplace, we tell them that before we can proceed, three things must be true:

1) The fireplace manufacturer must allow the installation of an insert in that model.
2) The insert manufacturer must allow installation in zero-clearance fireplaces
3) The insert must fit, without alteration to the 0-can beyond removal of the damper and bolt-on "smoke guard" across the top front, if present.

Following this thread, it seems the OP has a Heatilator A42C fireplace.  On the factory listing label, shown on page 2 of the A42C installation manual at http://www.heatilator.com/downloads/installManuals/28396.pdf you'll find the following prohibition:

"DO NOT USE A FIREPLACE INSERT OR OTHER PRODUCTS NOT SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT."

Not to rain on your parade or anything, par0thead151, but a similar prohibition appears on page 2 of your Majestic SR-42 manual, shown at http://legacy.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/7412948_SR_SC.pdf:

"Do not install a solid fuel burning insert or other products not specified for use with this fireplace."

As an installing dealership, we're not willing to take on the potential responsibility for installing inserts in zero clearance fireplace models that specifically forbid them, no matter how unlikely the event of a future catastrophic occurrence.


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## sureman (Dec 12, 2010)

I interpret "SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT" to mean it needs to be an insert approved to be installed in a prefab fireplace, for which the Kodiak 1700 is approved.  In addition, on page 41 of the referenced manual is the following:

B. Wood Burning Inserts
WARNING! Risk of Fire! Improper installation of wood inserts may cause fireplace or chimney system to overheat.
If a wood burning insert is being installed in this fireplace,
Hearth & Home Technologies recommends full reline of
the chimney.
•     Cooling air openings at the top of the chimney must not
be obstructed in any manner.
•     Hearth & Home Technologies recommends securing the
reline at the top of the flue and using the cap certified for
use with this fireplace system.

To me, that means that inserts can be used in the unit as long as the chimney is lined which is definitely in my plan.  I also read somewhere on this forum that Heatilator themselves stated the same thing to another member.  I'll try to find the post and I will call Heatilator to verify myself and give everyone an update.

thechimneysweeps 3 requirements pertaining to installation of the Kodiak in my Heatilator:

1) Check
2) Check
3) Based on the dimensions it should fit like a glove without modification.  Check.

I really appreciate the feedback, so please let me know if I am off base.


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## sureman (Dec 12, 2010)

It was concerning a Quadrafire 2700 in a Heatilator E36, but I believe that it is still pertinent info: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31118/#333244


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## thechimneysweep (Dec 12, 2010)

> I interpret



You might have an argument there, but your interpretation isn't going to help the dealership who installs the insert if the insurance company's claims adjuster interprets otherwise.  I guess I'm defending the dealerships who refused the OP's installation here, from a dealer's viewpoint.  When you're installing possibly hundreds of inserts over the years, each of which is subject to abuse by owners, renters, guests, etc., any of whom might do something that causes an insert-related fire, you need to act in a manner that protects your company.  If you've ever been sued by an insurance company, you'll know it gets really, really vicious in there.


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## sureman (Dec 13, 2010)

I guess I left that one hanging over the plate.  I can totally understand a dealer protecting themselves, but I'm just looking for the safest and easiest solution for my situation.

I contacted Heatilator for their "interpretation" of the statement:

Question: I currently have a Heatilator A42C installed and I would like to install a wood burning insert into the A42C.  The A42C label states the following, "DO NOT USE A FIREPLACE INSERT OR OTHER PRODUCTS NOT  SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT".  In order to clarify this statement for safety and support, does it mean that the insert has to state that it can be installed into a Heatilator A42C specifically OR does it mean that the insert must be specified for use in a zero-clearance fireplace in general?

Answer:  It means the insert must specify Heatilator.  I suggest contacting our sister company Quadrafire. (imagine that)

Looking at the Quadrafire manuals, I see the following: "This insert is listed to UL 1482 Standard and is approved for installation into listed factory-built zero  clearance fireplaces listed to UL 127 conforming to the following specifications and instructions"

Since I did not find anything stating "Heatilator", I called Quadrafire to clear it up.  After being on hold for quite some time with "Quadrafire", I get the Heatilator guy that I had previously emailed.  He told me that any of the UL1482 quadrafire inserts rated for installation into a UL127 prefab could be used in  my fireplace.  Of course there is no documentation stating "approved for Heatilator" explicitly.  So, I asked what about another manufacturer and he said that as long as their unit is UL1482 listed and approved for installation in a zero clearance fireplace then it should be fine as long as the local permitting office approves.  I asked him if he could send me something stating that in writing but of course he dodged that and said that a dealer could contact their technical team for something.  Problem is only the Hearth &Home; Technologies(Quadrafire, Heatilator, etc) dealers have their number and they won't give it out to anyone else.

Here is the terminology in the Kodiak manual:

● This appliance is tested to ULC-S627 Standard for Space Heaters for Use with Solid Fuel, ULC-S628 
Standard for Fireplace Inserts, & UL 1482 Standard for Safety for Solid-Fuel Type Room Heaters. 
● Both the 1200 & 1700 Fireplace Inserts are approved for installed into a zero-clearance fireplaces in the 
U.S. In Canada refer to local building or fire officials for restrictions and installation inspection

I called the county permit office and they said the plan sounds good but I will need to of course apply for the permit and get final approval of the installation.  I also called my insurance company and they said that as long as I have a permit and get the installation approved, then I'm good.  I also intend to call Enviro to get their take(if I can find a number).  After that, I think I'm good.  I have actually thought about embedding an inexpensive k-type temp probe in the framing to monitor temps during the first few times using the insert for peace of mind.


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## sureman (Dec 13, 2010)

My response was posted twice.


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## Milton Findley (Dec 13, 2010)

thechimneysweep said:
			
		

> > I interpret
> 
> 
> 
> You might have an argument there, but your interpretation isn't going to help the dealership who installs the insert if the insurance company's claims adjuster interprets otherwise.  I guess I'm defending the dealerships who refused the OP's installation here, from a dealer's viewpoint.  When you're installing possibly hundreds of inserts over the years, each of which is subject to abuse by owners, renters, guests, etc., any of whom might do something that causes an insert-related fire, you need to act in a manner that protects your company.  If you've ever been sued by an insurance company, you'll know it gets really, really vicious in there.



I ran into a similar problem with a 55 year old zero clearance insert.  The building inspector was by this morning and we decided that there were no issues at all with what I actually did, but I have no use for the dealer fools that came in here to look at it, said that it would all have to be torn out and replaced, said that it could not be done, said that it could be done, but that they would not do it, liability etc.  With the exception of the liability issues, (after all it was a zero clearance fireplace from the 50's, triple walled, triple walled chimneyed, and stainless steel except for the high carbon battleship steel of the outer wall, itself surrounded by masonry), these dealers showed absolutely no common sense at all regarding safety issues, installation constraints, or knowledge of what is permissible under the code and what is not permissible under code.  No wonder attorney's make mincemeat out of them.

My wife and I did it ourselves, all to code.  Wasn't hard at all.  I own a few tools I would not otherwise own, built and used a jib crane to install the liner, learned how to tile, grout, and mix concrete in the living room without making a mess, and re-acquainted myself with the tin smithing skills I first learned in the 8th grade.  

I think that there is a lot of folklore passing as knowledge in the wood stove business.


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## Renovation (Dec 13, 2010)

sureman said:
			
		

> I guess I left that one hanging over the plate.  I can totally understand a dealer protecting themselves, but I'm just looking for the safest and easiest solution for my situation.
> 
> I contacted Heatilator for their "interpretation" of the statement:
> 
> ...



Hi Sureman,

I admire your initiative, resourcefulness, and persistence.

The typical solution is throw money at the problem until it goes away, common sense be darned--tear it all out and start over.  I happen to like  your approach, and hope you eventually find someone in authority (your inspector perhaps) who is willing to think and take responsibility.  Those people do exist.  I wish you good luck, and hope you will post photos of your install.


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## UncleBubba (Dec 14, 2010)

One thing that you should definately do is contact your local inspector to make sure he is ok with putting an insert in there.  A lot of times there may be a local or state code that will supercede a manufacturers recommendation.  The local dealer probably has their reasons to not want to do this and you can not force them.  One suggestion I will make is the Quadra-Fire 7100.   Upsides are it puts out great heat, is a true house heater, uses the same pipe as your A42. Downside is it will take some custom work to finish it off but it will look beautiful and you would not be disappointed.


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## basswidow (Dec 14, 2010)

Knightfire,

there are many of us here on Hearth.com that encountered the same thing.  Whatever you do, make sure you pull a permit and have it inspected and approved for safety.

BTW - you have a beautiful stone facade on your heatilator.  Save the stones when you chisel that hunk of junk out. 

Mine was exactly like yours.  It had a propane gas log set in it.  The big problem is - inorder to fit the firebox - there were only  2 inserts that would work and they were dinky small.  You have some high ceilings in that room -  You do want heat from this new stove right?

The other issue is - I will bet your heatilator flue is not a class A HT flue rated for woodstove temps.  So in addition to a small insert, you'd have to run an insulated liner.  

For us - the price of doing that was equal to simply pulling the heatilator and installing a zero clearance woodstove and Class A HT flue.  Same price.  We bought the Kozyheat Z42  (same exact dimensions as the heatilator 42).  It's manufactured to be an easy swap.  Installed the stove and new flue was around $ 5000.  I probably over paid some.

I saved money by doing the removal of the heatilator myself and then the finish work after the install.  The new flue fit into the same chase and was installed in mere minutes.  

I am really pleased with the Kozyheat z42 - it puts out great heat.  The firebox takes up to 22 inch logs, it's easy to operate, clean EPA stove - you don't even see smoke coming out of the chimney.  We burn 24/7 and go thru maybe 4 cords a season and in our house of 3000+ sf,  we completely heat with the z42.  

I would strongly recommend a zero clearance wood stove or as others have recommended - extend the hearth and put in a free standing stove.  We wanted to keep the same look - so having a zero clearance wood stove was the best of both worlds.  That looks like a beautiful great room.  You just need something that looks the same - that you can burn wood in and get a ton of heat out of.

I would NOT recommend a small insert in a heatilator.  For that size room - seems a waste.  My heatilator had fake firebrick panels.  They say you could burn wood in it,  but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night thinking about a woodstove insert cranking in it.  

Many different companys now make zero clearance woodstoves for replacement of heatilators.  RSF, Buck, Kozyheat.  It is an easy solution. 

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## KnightFire (Dec 14, 2010)

Thank you one and all for the massive amounts of information, I thought I would let you know what I decided.

I decided to have the existing "fireplace" walled up (with matching stone of course), the hearth lowered and extended another 20", and I'm putting a Regency F3100 wood burning stove on the hearth.  Of course the installers will also be putting in a class A chimney system to match the stove's requirements.

The decision to go with the stove was done for mainly two reasons, the first being that in shear numbers, the stove out performs nearly all the replacement fireplaces I researched and the largest reason was the ability to easily cook on the stove.  I love the idea of being able to cook during power outages, when my propane tanks run out.  Will I NEED that capability, I sincerely hope not, but I'd rather "be prepared."  The last reason which only kinda entered into the equation was that this will be different, not quite what most people are used to seeing in a "modern" living room.  I kinda like that.

All said and done, it will cost me a little over $4,000.00 and I'm also eligible for the EPA $1,500.00 tax rebate, making the grand total around $2,500.00.  A pretty damn good deal IMHO.

Again, thank you everyone, I'll be sticking around though, owning a wood burning stove is new for me, so I'll need all the guidance I can get.

The installation is next week, I'll post some process and "after" photos in this thread.


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## basswidow (Dec 14, 2010)

Congrats!


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## basswidow (Dec 14, 2010)

That sounds like a good option.  

Are you going with the pedestal or legs?  Blower?  That's a big stove.  Are you all stocked up on wood?  Good price!

Yeah,  please post pics of the process.  

Looking at the picture, seems like it was taken from an upstairs balcony.   If the room has a ceiling fan, that might help with the distribution of the heat.  The balcony will allow the upstairs to get some heat.  

Enjoy -  it's a tremendous improvement over the heatilator (decorative fireplace only)


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## KnightFire (Dec 14, 2010)

basswidow said:
			
		

> That sounds like a good option.
> 
> Are you going with the pedestal or legs?  Blower?  That's a big stove.  Are you all stocked up on wood?  Good price!
> 
> ...



The stove will be on a pedestal, it's what the wife liked best, and it will certainly have a blower and airmate.  It was taken from the balcony, the room has a huge ceiling fan, I expect this sucker to really warm the top two floors .

I'm pretty much stocked up on wood, I have several cords of seasoned wood at the ready; although, one never has enough wood, so I'm continuously falling, bucking, and splitting, this way I always have wood ready to burn, while the rest seasons.


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## FPX Dude (Dec 14, 2010)

Awesome...I think you'll luv the free standing stove!


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## madauswb (Dec 21, 2010)

Wow what a posting, as I for the past couple of weeks have gone through the same agonizing, confusing, frustrating circles it seems you have. I have a 2 year old home roughly 3000 sq ft. POS "fire-breathing dragon" ZC fireplace in an island type floor to ceiling hearth place in the center of an open floor plan. I have read my eyes out on the net trying to figure out what to do cause the local "heater" distributor said it wouldnt even be worth his time to come look at my place, and determine what he could sell me for $4000 bucks.Feeling pretty screwed with it all, I've decided to tear out the old ZC fireplace and start from scratch with the Kozy Heat Z42 High efficiency fireplace. I'm tired smelling like a bonfire has been raging in the living room. I also have deep roots with the Lopi stoves as I grew up in a warm home heated with a Liberty free stander, But thats just not going to happen this time.Rambled enough. Thanks for thread good luck.post pics of whatever you do.


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## madauswb (Dec 21, 2010)

Wow what a posting, as I too for the past couple of weeks have gone through the same agonizing, confusing, frustrating circles it seems you have. I have a 2 year old home roughly 3000 sq ft. POS "fire-breathing dragon" ZC fireplace in an island type floor to ceiling hearth and wall of stone in the center of an open floor plan. I have read my eyes out on the net trying to figure out what to do. The local "heater" distributor said it wouldnt even be worth his time to come look at my place, and determine what he could sell me for $4000 bucks.Feeling pretty screwed with it all, I've decided to tear out the old ZC fireplace and start from scratch with the Kozy Heat Z42 High efficiency fireplace. I'm tired smelling like a bonfire has been raging in the living room. I also have deep roots with the Lopi stoves as I grew up in a warm home heated with a Liberty free stander, But thats just not going to happen this time.Rambled enough. Thanks for thread good luck.post pics of whatever you do.


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## KnightFire (Dec 21, 2010)

Just a quick update, it appears the stove may NOT be installed this week.  My installer is having a tough time finding a dealer who has the stones we need on hand.  Since the housing bubble collapse and the massive reduction in new home buildings, dealers don't keep much on hand, and ordering it takes weeks, at best.

So, I haven't forgotten about the photo requests, I'll be posting pics as soon as we actually get started, which is now starting to look like early-mid January.


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## KnightFire (Feb 2, 2011)

As promised:







This is what we started with, it was nice to look at, but wasn't very functional.





Demolition





"Class A" chimney pipe installed





Rock board installed.





The rock board was "mudded," the carpet removed, and fire board/insulation were laid.





Hearth stones laid and some of the chimney rocks put on wall.





DONE!  All that's left is to let the mud cure and add wood trim around the hearth stones to finish the look and save our toes.

If for some reason you can't view the photos, just go to my blog where I also speak to my real world differences between zero clearance builder grade POS "fireplaces" and wood burning stoves:

http://awakeningpatriot.blogspot.com/


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## Trail_Time (Feb 2, 2011)

Nice. Very well done.  Final product looks great.


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## DanCorcoran (Feb 2, 2011)

Looks great...how's the heat?


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## KnightFire (Feb 2, 2011)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> Looks great...how's the heat?



The heat is incredible, it actually heats the entire house (except for the basement of course) and when burning, the HVAC systems never turn on.  We have a very open floor plan, the ceiling fans spread the heat evenly throughout the house.  I only wish I had done it sooner.

In the winter I leave my HVACs set to 67F, and when it's below 40F, they run non-stop.  When I use the stove last week, the temps were well below 20F, it heated the entire house to 72F and the HVAC units were quiet the entire time.  I can see myself using a LOT more wood in the future, lol.


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## bmwmaw (Dec 21, 2011)

I am in the same boat right now as a lot of you are.  This post has been very helpful and I have a few questions.

I just got a new house with a "nice to look at, but not practical" prefab fireplace insert.  Trying to decide between a pellet insert like the Quadrafire Mt. Vernon (I am used to pellets as I had a Harmon P61 in my last house)  or getting some type of a wood fireplace/stove insert.  

My main concerns are heat output (I want to heat my 3000+ sq ft house - or as much of it as possible) and how long I can get a burn without reloading (issue for when I am at work and wife is home.)
Also how much modification would have to be done to my current fireplace.  Trying to keep it as simple as possible.

Also I would most likely be buying wood if I go that route, so I'd be paying for fuel either way.

I have never burned wood so I am totally unfamiliar with how that would be.  Wondering if a fireplace like the kozy heat Z42 would it keep the house reasonable warm for 8 hours or more at a time?

Any other helpful info you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## Iembalm4aLiving (Dec 21, 2011)

Very nicely done.  Very resourceful, too!

If you really love burning wood, a stove or insert is a must, IMO.  It took me 10 years to make the transition, but I've never been so happy to spend this amount of money on a home improvement!


Enjoy your new setup, it looks great!


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## KB007 (Dec 21, 2011)

Very nice.  Curious - why didn't you just pull out the frame/box from the old unit?

The heat s/b prodigious, that F3100 has the same box as our I3100 and makes huge heat.


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## mellow (Dec 21, 2011)

When you get the chimney swept make sure they vacuum out that tee on the bottom.


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