# carbon monoxide detector question



## basswidow (Nov 28, 2009)

I have a Kidde Nighthawk digital read detector at the top of my stairs (center hall colonial) on the sleeping level.  My two primary furnaces are propane so they recommend a low plug in level for propane dectection.  However - we use the wood stove.

Last night - it gave off a single beep and a reading of 97ppm.  This concerned me.  I moved the unit to other locations within the house and got a 0 reading.  We opened the windows and vented the house (checked on the kids first).  No one had any symptoms.  I plugged it back in and we went back to bed.  Within 30 minutes - I got the same reading again.

This unit may be more than 5 years old - I am going to go to Home depot and buy 2 new ones today.  

It's a plug in with a battery back up.  If it was a battery issue - it would display LB (low battery).  If it was a malfunction - it would display err.   For gas leaks - it displays GAS.  I don't know what to think.  I belive it was giving an accurate reading.  When it went off -  we were not using the propane heat.  

My woodstove door gasket is alittle worn - I am going to see about replacing that.  My woodstove has an outdoor air intake and should be a sealed operation.  Is it possible that I have a leak somewhere?  It was very windy last night.  When I checked on the stove - it was down to coals and not doing much.

I love my stove - but I am not going to run it and worry.  

Anyone advise?  Anyone else get readings like this?  I read the instructions and about the symptoms.  No one is experiencing symptoms.  Perhaps it's just time to replace it - although it seems to work when moved.  I don't know?


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## basswidow (Nov 28, 2009)

Well,  I tried to delete my post,  because we figured the problem out.

The unit was plugged in upside down -  therefore -->  a reading of 97   turned over is LB  low battery.  Relieved and yet mildly amused.  I feel so stupid.  Atleast I acted   In the wee hours of the morning - my cognitive abilities were lacking.
Too funny.  

Burning wood -  how many of you have carbon monoxide detectors?  I have heard horror stories of whole families dying.  It's made me alittle paranoid.


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## stee6043 (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm glad you didn't delete the post.  I laughed out loud just now.  I can absolutely see myself doing the same thing.  Too funny.  LB....HA......


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## devinsdad (Nov 28, 2009)

We bought a plug in model when we moved last year and were having furnace problems.The closest outlet just happened to be in our sons room but that also happens to be the farthest away from the woodstove. Now the furnace doesn't need to run (unless it ever gets real cold)so we will be adding another co detector in the front of the house where the stove is located.


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## Corey (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd say leave the post - it's a good lesson!  Sort of like the blond at the auto parts store insisting she needed a new "710" cap for her car...


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## gzecc (Nov 28, 2009)

Good thread about CO. There was a DR on LI NY that turned off his CO monitor when he went to work early in the morning because he thought it was alarming incorrectly. He came home to find his family dead in their beds!


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## rustynut (Nov 29, 2009)

so we bought this house a few years back....
running on propane and has a co2 detector
had this thing go off a couple times in the past
couldnt figure it out until the pilot of the water heater
kept blowing out !
Backdraft !
Closed up a couple of holes in the vacinity and that all stopped.
Hasn't gone off for some time now.
Was up on the roof blowing out the gutters today and noticed the stack
was very very short. Lucky it was drafting at all.
Picked up another piece of pipe today. Install it tomorrow.
That should insure that this doesnt happen again.
Those detectors are life savers and belong in campers as well
rn


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## velvetfoot (Nov 29, 2009)

I've been looking at smoke and CO detectors and I bet not everyone knows that you can get wireless smoke and co detectors that talk to one another:  if one goes off they all go off and they have voice alarms that tell you where the problem is!  I didn't find a voice option when upgrading my hardwired system, but it is interconnected and you can get combo co/smoke alarms.  

PS:  I think you want to make sure you have some photo-electric smoke detectors as well as ionization, to pick up smoldering fires.


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## Gooserider (Nov 30, 2009)

I have BK / First alert hardwired combo units, they interconnect and do the voice thing.  I don't really find them that helpful, as the voice is so loud and fast it's hard to understand - sort of like a bad PA system...  The other problem is if you have a false alarm - say from "over-enthusiastic" cooking - it can be a real pain trying to get ALL the detectors to shut up....

Gooserider


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## madrone (Nov 30, 2009)

My oil furnace busted its exchanger the first year in my house. I have CO detectors on every floor now.


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## Czech (Nov 30, 2009)

Three CO's in the split level. They work very well as even if you run a vehicle in the garage with the big door open and the entry door closed, the one in the basement by the stove will eventually alarm. Note that most units (Kidde for sure) are warrantied for many years, keep your receipt and you can usually get them replaced if they get goofy. One of my Kiddes was replaced at 6 years of age, no questions asked other than the serial number.


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## firefighterjake (Nov 30, 2009)

Two CO detectors in my home . . . and several photo-electric/ion smoke detectors. 

P.S. To the original poster . . . thanks for not deleting the thread. As I was reading this I was going through all the possible reasons for that high a reading and couldn't come up with any real reason (i.e. the furnace was not being used and the natural draft of the woodstove should have not allowed any CO leakage . . . even with the wind and leaky seals) . . . it wasn't until I read your second post that everything made sense . . . and don't worry . . . we've all had "those moments."


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## seige101 (Nov 30, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I've been looking at smoke and CO detectors and I bet not everyone knows that you can get wireless smoke and co detectors that talk to one another:  if one goes off they all go off and they have voice alarms that tell you where the problem is!  I didn't find a voice option when upgrading my hardwired system, but it is interconnected and you can get combo co/smoke alarms.
> 
> PS:  I think you want to make sure you have some photo-electric smoke detectors as well as ionization, to pick up smoldering fires.



As goosesaid, the BRK/First Alert ones do have the voice with programmable locations. The earlier models the voice was kinda muffled, but they seem to have fixed that in the latest version. We use these exclusively at work (electrician) due to the reliability and no call backs.

The NFPA and most manufacturers recommend replacing the units every 5 years. Don't forget to change the battery twice a year also.

One last thing to look into First alert has recently came out with a rechargeable battery pack built in that is good for 5 years. However the unit is twice the price of a regular unit.


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## fbelec (Dec 1, 2009)

i also put in brk. they are the only company that makes smoke detectors that run after twenty years. that's right twenty years. my supply house has pulled the firex brand because of to much trouble. they don't even last the 5 years they give you for a warranty. i've gone into customers homes to look at other things and to my amazement i see twenty year old smoke detectors. light up a cigar and it sounds the alarm. brk has always been reliable. and yes they are loud and clear. i had one of those blackhawk and it just kept on giving me false readings and 888 and it only went off between 2 and 3 in the morning. thru that one out the window. the only thing i liked about the blackhawk is the digital display.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 1, 2009)

The hardwired photo/ion BRK alarm has a "turret" design that looks like the commercial units you see.  Not fashionable maybe, but maybe functional.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 1, 2009)

Just a FYI . . . the NFPA and most other experts in the field recommend changing smoke detectors every 10 years and as I have mentioned before most folks suggest changing out CO detectors every 5 years (although the manufacturers vary in how often they suggest you change out their own brand -- I've heard as low as 3 years to as many as 7 years.)

That said, there is nothing to say you can't keep older detectors if you are so inclined . . . like anything else . . . they have a life expectancy and some will last longer and some will not last as long. In my own home for example I have an older CO detector that I still use today even though I "replaced" it with a newer CO detector once the original had gone by its 5 year anniversary . . . figured as long as it isn't giving me any nuisance alarms it cannot hurt to have an additional detector even though it's not my "primary" CO detector now.


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## basswidow (Dec 1, 2009)

I am glad I was able to provide a chuckle.  

We are new to wood burning and I want to take this responsibility very seriously, for my family's sake.  We changed the batteries in all the smoke detectors this fall - but I neglected to replace the one in my CO detector.

We had company staying with us too.  When it first went off -  I was looking at it (in the dark hallway) and all I could see was a red digital 97.  It really scared me.  It woke my 10 year old up and he climbed into our room,  but my 4 year old and their cousins were still sleeping and camped out on the floor.  I checked to see that each was snoring and breathing and turned on the ceiling fans.   My wife told me to take it outside and check the reading - and of course it goes to zero.  

I plug it back in and it gives the same reading.  Now we open up a bunch of doors and windows and let the cold air in a panic thinking we are breathing dangerous levels and poisoning our blood.  My brother and sister in law and the cousins - didn't even hear it or notice all the cold fresh air.

I went to the web site for Kidde and it wasn't until after my first post that I put it together =  97 is LB  when you turn the unit over the right way.  It was plugged in upside down.   Lord help my dumbass.  A big relief.  My wife and I are still cracking up about this one.  You all be safe!


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## fbelec (Dec 1, 2009)

i just wish there were a solid way of testing these c/o detectors. like smoke detectors push the button and it sounds. light up a cigar and put smoke all over the unit, and the good ones sound and the bad ones don't. a cigar is one of the best ways of checking a smoke detector other than real smoke from a fire. a can of smoke that fire depts or alarm people use is $15 dollars a can. and if you run across a detectors not working right you blow the can in 1 to 2 detectors. so a cigar works great and cheap. again i've tested smoke detector with the button on them and it sounded. same smoke detector in smoke and nothing.

but how can you simulate c/o to give the detector a real life test? i don't know. and if you read some of the detectors instructions it says at curtain lower levels of c/o the unit will have to sit in that low level for 1 or 2 hours before it sounds.
bottom line is you don't really know if it is working or not until something happens.


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## EL DRIFTO (Dec 2, 2009)

^^good question

i want one with a display...
they claim there's a logic circuit of some kind that monitors rise rate, etc of co
so it decides to go off or not...hmm

like my stinky LP water heater wont set it off, although i can smell it in the basement

(electrician), i put one in the other day that had a feature:
"point any IR remote control @ detector to silence alarm"


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## EL DRIFTO (Dec 2, 2009)

i'm really struggling with this co thing

i certainly dont want a dead family

i'm having a hard time comprehending enough co coming out of a wood stove to kill everyone
obviously it's happened, but
wouldn't there be some amount of smoke to accompany that level of co ??

is stove co odorless ??

i'm wondering exactly what happened to the dead DR family cause the only time i have draft issues, there isn't a huge fire rolling

also considering the integrity of my stove vs the integrity of my LP furnace heat exchanger, that btw doesn't shut off the fan if fire's rolling in the furnace, just the gas valve limit switch, if it's still working

maybe i have too much time on my hands, but i could disconnect the LP water heater flue & pipe it into my air return, then measure co @ the various detector locations in my house & hope i live through it..........ahahahhahahahahahahhaaaahh


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## firefighterjake (Dec 2, 2009)

fbelec said:
			
		

> i just wish there were a solid way of testing these c/o detectors. like smoke detectors push the button and it sounds. light up a cigar and put smoke all over the unit, and the good ones sound and the bad ones don't. a cigar is one of the best ways of checking a smoke detector other than real smoke from a fire. a can of smoke that fire depts or alarm people use is $15 dollars a can. and if you run across a detectors not working right you blow the can in 1 to 2 detectors. so a cigar works great and cheap. again i've tested smoke detector with the button on them and it sounded. same smoke detector in smoke and nothing.
> 
> but how can you simulate c/o to give the detector a real life test? i don't know. and if you read some of the detectors instructions it says at curtain lower levels of c/o the unit will have to sit in that low level for 1 or 2 hours before it sounds.
> bottom line is you don't really know if it is working or not until something happens.



Technically "testing" a smoke detector by simply pushing the test button only really tests that there is power to the unit and the audible alarm is working . . . in most, if not all, units it doesn't actually test the sensing unit.

As for the cigarette/cigar smoke . . . fair enough . . . unless you don't smoke and then you would have to resort to the can . . . or you could simply do the easy thing and make sure you have plenty of them in your home and replace them every 10 years.

I don't know of any CO testing method unfortunately.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 2, 2009)

EL DRIFTO said:
			
		

> ^^good question
> 
> i want one with a display...
> they claim there's a logic circuit of some kind that monitors rise rate, etc of co
> ...



I think your electrician was talking about a smoke detector . . . BRK/First Alert has a dual ion/PE detector that you can silence with a TV remote or any other IR remote controller . . . very handy for cathedral or other high ceilings.

I will tell you that when it comes to CO detectors we tend to like the ones with the CO reading . . . it gives us an idea of what we may be dealing with or walking into . . . but that said, it's just a handy feature and not absolutely critical to have on a CO detector.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 2, 2009)

EL DRIFTO said:
			
		

> i'm really struggling with this co thing _*It really is pretty simple . . . every CO detector out there has to pass muster with UL or FM testing. Just make sure you get one that has been tested by one of these labs . . . the seal should be right on the box.*_
> 
> i certainly dont want a dead family
> 
> ...


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## EL DRIFTO (Dec 2, 2009)

i never considered the co coming off the coals, all day long, after my draft has completely stopped or reversed

hasn't made a diff to my co detecors yet though

thanks


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## stee6043 (Dec 2, 2009)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> EL DRIFTO said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



UL/FM doesn't mean the units aren't mass produced and that each one has been tested.  You can have all the UL listing in the world but there are still a certain amount of just about all electrical components that will arrive DOA or that will die when first powered up.  It's a mathmatical certainty with controls components (a very small percentage, but still there).  No manfucturing process is perfect.

I think your best bet for "sleeping well at night" is to have two sensors in your house.  Buy two of the cheaper units as opposed to one higher end unit and sleep well.  If one goes off you'll always have the other to use to validate....


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## firefighterjake (Dec 3, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> firefighterjake said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No argument here . . . obviously these things can come from the factory flawed (although I would suspect and hope there is some type of quality control on the manufacturing line) . . . the point I was trying to make is that it really shouldn't be a difficult decision when it comes to buying a CO detector . . . simply get one that has been tested and approved by an independent lab vs. potentially buying a unit that has not been tested (which I honestly suspect would be rare to find these days unless it's some cheap import.)

I also agree with you . . . my own feeling is that one CO detector is better than none . . . and two is better than one . . . so buy what you can afford . . . and if money was an issue and I wanted to be as safe as possible I too would agree with the idea of two cheaper units may be better than one more expensive unit with more fancy doo-dads -- as stated the digital read out is nice, but unnecessary most of the time.


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## Gooserider (Dec 3, 2009)

I find that I do occasionally get less than alarm level readings (would love to figure out why, but suspect it may be smoke spill when loading) and I wish the units would tell you that easily, but...  My BRK / First Alert hardwires tell you what the highest reading was as part of their test routine, but that also means a lot of noise and distraction. (Not to mention needing to REACH the test button)..  Rather than do that, I also have a free standing NightHawk in the living room near the stove, which will give me a peak reading without all the noise.  As a final backup, I have a cheapo AC only unit that doesn't do numeric readouts plugged in to an outlet in our bedroom.  

Gooserider


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## Czech (Dec 3, 2009)

As far as testing a CO goes, is there anything wrong with running them on battery and taking them for a walk by the running vehicle exhaust in the driveway? This is what I do if I'm concerned, and then once a year at the begining of the heating season.


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## Gooserider (Dec 3, 2009)

GotzTheHotz said:
			
		

> As far as testing a CO goes, is there anything wrong with running them on battery and taking them for a walk by the running vehicle exhaust in the driveway? This is what I do if I'm concerned, and then once a year at the begining of the heating season.



Not sure it would work very well...  For better or worse, modern cars have fairly low CO emissions...  The other problem is that the detectors do a time / level equation, and have to see a certain level of CO for a given length of time before they will alarm. (it is a ratio thing, the higher the level, the shorter the exposure time needed to alarm) The meters that do a "Highest peak" reading w/o alarming might detect a peak, but I don't know how long that would take, or what the minimum exposure would be...

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Dec 3, 2009)

Goose, this is the BRK CO I ordered but didn't receive yet.
Is it a later model than yours?
It looks like the peak is more accessible than yours.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000Q6L5KC


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## Czech (Dec 3, 2009)

Goose, I have a Kidde as mentioned way above in this thread. The one in my basement will go off if I run the car in the garage with the garage door open, butt end out of course. If the entrance door in the attached garage is opened (i.e. kids coming out to get in the car), the CO across the room in the basement will often alarm. Although it is a pia to back the car way out and then go in and attend to the alarm, it makes me feel good that I know it is working. Very low reading of course, but the thing is sensitive for sure. To the OP, don't feel bad, did the same thing! I was hot because this happened right when the thing was new too! Drove me batty!


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## Gooserider (Dec 3, 2009)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Goose, this is the BRK CO I ordered but didn't receive yet.
> Is it a later model than yours?
> It looks like the peak is more accessible than yours.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000Q6L5KC



Judging by the picture, yours is quite different from mine - I don't have a display for starters...  Looking at the Amzon link, I see that yours is a straight CO alarm, mine is a combined CO / Smoke.  It is sort of like the SC9120B that Amazon offers as an alternative, except that the LED arrangement on the cover is different...  Mine doesn't have a model # that I can read from the floor...  The other thing is that while mine came in a BRK box, it is marked as a 1st Alert...  I actually had a bit of trouble with a couple of the first batch I bought, which were the first ones of that model off the production line, and they sent me the ones I have now as replacements.

(It was a really annoying situation, we had a MA code requirement that went into effect before anyone offered a product that met the regulation, as I was trying to get the VC stove installed and approved.  I was told the ones I have were in the UL testing process, and had to wait for them to be sent to the local vendor - I actually had the first ones the local Fire inspector had seen, as he didn't know they were available yet!)

Gooserider


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## velvetfoot (Dec 3, 2009)

As far as smokes, I wound up getting BRK photo/ion combos because Kidde had a recall of ~94,000 units and they estimated 1/2010 before the units hit the stores again!


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