# Log splitter will only split at low engine RPM



## nezwick (Feb 17, 2018)

Hey everybody, first post so go easy!  I don't know a whole lot about hydraulics but I will try to describe the problem as best I can.

So I picked up an older, very heavy duty, homemade log splitter from Craigslist the other day.  The seller and I thoroughly tested the machine by splitting a whole bunch of hickory and oak logs from his wood pile, so it was working fine when I left his place.  Then a couple days went by before I could actually use it at home.  Today, when I tried splitting some wood, it was being REALLY temperamental, and it seems like an unusual problem.

The only way I can get the cylinder to have enough force to push through a piece of wood is to slow the engine WAY down.  At a certain speed, my guess is around 1200 RPM (just by ear, haven't connected a tach yet), I can hear the system start to build pressure and the cylinder powers forward through the log at a pretty decent pace.  I hear a "whooshing" or "whining" noise when it starts working.  Like all of a sudden it realizes it needs to build pressure.  Of course since the engine RPM is so low when the load is added, the engine wants to stall so I have to raise the throttle to compensate.  MOST of the time, I can make it the whole way through the split by manipulating the throttle, but sometimes the governor wants to give it too much throttle so I lose all my pressure (and also all the noise in the hydraulic system).

At "normal" operating speed (which I assume is somewhere between 2000-2800 RPM), the cylinder will move back and forth but very slowly.  It just won't split anything.  Another symptom I notice is that the engine will actually bog down more when the cylinder is RETRACTING than it does when it is advancing. 

The parts used on this homemade splitter are really hard to identify because there are lots of missing tags and lots of layers of paint.  Here's what I know:

Engine is a Wisconsin TJD 18.2 HP inline twin which runs great, so it should have PLENTY of power.

The cylinder is made by Parker Hannifin, has a 6" bore, 24" stroke, and the rod appears to be almost 2" in diameter.

I have no idea about the pump specs, because I cannot find any nameplate.The control valve is made by Prince. 

It really is a beast and I got one this big for a reason: lots of big chunks of maple I just can't split with a maul.  Really hoping it's something simple and not an expensive repair.

Is this a symptom of air or water in the system?  Fluid flush/change first in order?


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## kevin j (Feb 17, 2018)

check everything on the suction side there might be a plugged strainer in the tank, the collapsed hose or the liner coming loose on the inside of the hose. I suspect at a certain flow rate the restriction is too much and there’s cavitation in the pump. that’s diagnostics from a distance of course


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## triptester (Feb 17, 2018)

Could be a damaged or broken spring in the pressure relief. Another possible cause would be a hydraulic hose that is delaminating internally restricting flow in the return hose between the front of the cylinder and the control valve.


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## jetsam (Feb 17, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Hey everybody, first post so go easy!  I don't know a whole lot about hydraulics but I will try to describe the problem as best I can.
> 
> So I picked up an older, very heavy duty, homemade log splitter from Craigslist the other day.  The seller and I thoroughly tested the machine by splitting a whole bunch of hickory and oak logs from his wood pile, so it was working fine when I left his place.  Then a couple days went by before I could actually use it at home.  Today, when I tried splitting some wood, it was being REALLY temperamental, and it seems like an unusual problem.
> 
> ...



Run it back and forth for a while and then look in the hydraulic tank with a flashlight. If you see a milkshake, it's water contamination. If it looks foamy, it's air contamination.

If it's got water or air in the fluid, step one is to figure out how it got in there and fix it. Step two is to change the fluid (or maybe not if it just had air in it, and it looks pretty clean).

Pull the filter too... can you see any chunks of hose in there?


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## Ashful (Feb 18, 2018)

I think the three answers above already nailed most of what I’d be looking at.  Just a few more thoughts, sort of related to the answers you already received.   Was it sitting outside?  Was it below freezing?  Did he have it warm when you tested before?

I’d be getting it warm and draining the hydro fluid.  New hydro filter, refill, test.  First thing I do on every machine I drag home is replace all fluids, so I know where to begin my own maintenance schedule.  

I can help you check the design, if you think it’s a design issue.  Measure fittings on the pump, and all line sizes, if you want to go there.  NPT fitting sizes are roughly 1/4” under their OD measurement.  Hose barbs (suction side) are their OD measurement.


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## zrock (Feb 18, 2018)

did you check fluid level?


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## nezwick (Feb 18, 2018)

Thanks for your replies!  

There is no external filter to check or change, but the guy said there is an internal cartridge filter underneath a metal plate on top of the tank - which I assume just gets cleaned out with kerosene.  Once I get an opportunity to go outside today, I'll start by taking off the filter cover and checking that out.  That will also give me a chance to look at the condition of the fluid.  There is a sight gauge on the side of the tank for checking the fluid level, but it's too dirty/cloudy to be useful right now.  In general, where should the level be in relation to the suction side hose? Or should the tank just be "full".

It was stored outside and unfortunately will also be stored outside here as well.  Now that you mention it, it was raining really hard for the trip home (over an hour drive), so maybe some water got into the system somewhere. Or maybe a bunch of trash in the tank was knocked around.

The weather when I bought  it was low 40's and raining.  The weather yesterday was mid 30's. 

We'll look at design issues once we get through the basic cleaning.  I'm guessing this was built in the 1950s-60s so I'd have to assume at some point in its life it worked correctly.


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## Ashful (Feb 18, 2018)

Level at suction hose must never dip below fitting, while running.  Really, as long as the level is somewhere up close to return, you should be good.  You want some head space in the tank.

I'd drain and trash all fluids, spin a new filter on there, an refill fresh.  Most of us run ATF in our splitters, easy to come by.

If storing outside, keep a tarp over it.  I do that with my own splitter, just to avoid having to trailer it back up to the barn each time I use it.


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## nezwick (Feb 18, 2018)

Here’s what the fluid looks like after sitting overnight... I’d say it needs changed. It’s plenty full. Water infiltration?


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## jetsam (Feb 18, 2018)

Ew!   If it had just been running I'd say water contamination. If that picture is after sitting overnight, it may be water plus the hydraulic fluid is from 1960 and has decomposed into something that stays mixed with water?

Definitely change the fluid and filter. I'd give it just enough fresh to keep the intake covered and run it a little (inch or two out, then in) to get some of that glop cycled out of the lines and pump, and then  change it again.


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## Ashful (Feb 18, 2018)

Yeah, you're beyond "single change" territory.  Double-change time.  Only other option would be to remove every damn line and fitting, to try to get all that crap out of there, but I'd not try it on an old machine.

Run, drain, fill, run, drain, fill.


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## nezwick (Feb 19, 2018)

Got it!  Yeah I thought that looked terrible.  I'll get some ATF at NAPA today or tomorrow (temp is supposed to be almost 70 tomorrow so that should help the fluid flow).  I think the guy said it takes over 5 gallons of fluid.  This stuff doesn't look half as bad as what came out of the rear end of our '44 2N when I first got it.  It was chunky and looked like butterscotch pudding. 

I did get the sight gauge cleaned off and here's what it looks like.   Also, despite the condition of the fluid I managed to get a little pile done yesterday.  It will bust through just about anything and I can't even imagine how powerful it will be once the fluid is correct.  We burn about 2 cords a month to keep the house warm.


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## kevin j (Feb 19, 2018)

I think there are two issues
one the speed which seems to be related to flow rate and engine speed. the other issue is fluid quality which definitely needs a change and flush.

is that sight gauge after running? Then that would be sucking air and a loose connection or suction side issue or shaft seal possibly 
if the sight gauge is that way after sitting overnight then it’s fluid compatibility or water or mixed fluids who knows what people have dumped in there and added together


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## Ashful (Feb 19, 2018)

6” cylinder = 28.26 sq.in. = 84,780 lb. @ 3000 psi = 42 tons.  Yeah, it’ll split just about anything.


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## nezwick (Feb 19, 2018)

That sight gauge is after sitting overnight with no use, just the movement of towing the splitter from the wood pile back to the barn.  Picture was taken at the same time as the view from the top of the tank.


42 tons!!  Go big or go home!  What I really wanted was a 3 point PTO powered splitter, but I searched for months and couldn't find anything.  Brand new ones are way above our budget.  So I "settled" for this one, and I'm pretty sure I'm glad I did.


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## sportbikerider78 (Feb 19, 2018)

Did you say ATF? Hydraulic oil and ATF are not the same thing.  

I'd drain that thing asap.


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## nezwick (Feb 19, 2018)

A couple posts ago, Ashful suggested replacing whatever that stuff is with ATF.  I hope I didn't just cause one of those famous internet "what's the best oil" wars.

I'll fill it with whatever is correct.  Never owned a log splitter before so I wasn't sure what to use.


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## blades (Feb 19, 2018)

Might want to check the pricing between ATF and say AW32 Hydro oil or 303 tractor fluid-  likely being less costly than ATF labeled products although very similar. My splitter has been running on W32 for 15 years ( yes it has been changed a few times in that span)


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## Ashful (Feb 19, 2018)

nezwick said:


> A couple posts ago, Ashful suggested replacing whatever that stuff is with ATF.  I hope I didn't just cause one of those famous internet "what's the best oil" wars.



Not at all.  Some run various viscosities of Hydro fluid, but if you check the manual of most homeowner grade splitters today, you’ll find they just call out ATF.  There’s nothing wrong with ATF, it’s more easily-obtained (Walmart carries it) than most other options, and its temperature range is well suited to where most are using their log splitter.

If you go with another option, consider the range of usage temperatures.  Too thick, and you’re going to have fun starting it with a live pump connection (no clutches on log splitters).  Too thin, and you’re going to have a wet slippery hand on that control valve.

Either one will work perfectly well.  You just need a non-compressible non-detergent oil.  Heck, my zero turn runs 15W-40 detergent oil in the hydro case, per John Deere.  Non critical, although this one is a nightmare to start in the cold.


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## nezwick (Feb 19, 2018)

Cool.  I should have access to just about any lubricant they make.  I assume I'll be doing most of my splitting in the fall, through the winter, and in the spring.  Doubtfully in the summer heat, but maybe.  The old farmer's rule is to have all the wood split and stacked before Easter... yeah right.

This splitter actually has an in/out gearbox thing in between the engine and pump, so while it's not a clutch, it's still a neat way to disengage the hydraulics when needed.


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## kevin j (Feb 19, 2018)

OK if that sight gauge is  from sitting over night it probably isn’t water because that would’ve settled down ( unless it has detergent motor oil in it which will emulsify water) and air would’ve come out.  it’s probably chemical incompatibility from something that was dumped in there over the years.  or most likely a combination of all of those above.

you might want to drain the fluid disconnect the hoses cycle the cylinder in an out to get as much out as possible and then instead of partial filling the tank and cycling a few times try putting the pump suction into a bucket of new fluid. start it up with the valve handle held moving the cylinder in one directio. as soon as it gets to the end of stroke move the valve and cylinder to the other direction.  as soon as it reaches the end of stroke back shut off the engine. This way you’re pushing fresh fluid through the system rather than sucking out of the tank and recycling and moving a mixture around the system. Then drain and clean the tank hook everything back up. put enough fresh fluid in the tank to cover the suction and run it  and cycle it a few times. Then see the what the condition of the fluid in the tank is. And decide whether to drain that or to just continue to fill it with fresh fluid.

 this is pretty crappy looking and it’s a little bit more involved than just a normal drain and refill. But not terribly complicated because it’s such a small system.

 A bad day is a 1000 gallon system with 22 pumps, another dozen motors and 50 cylinders when the tank looks like panning for gold with sparkly pieces of brass and silver everywhere.
 A large industrial plant or oil platform would be even bigger and worse but they have whole different levels of contamination control systems.

 I saw about every possible fluid added to hydraulic tanks usually accidentally from unlabel container that was on the machines or occasional cases of sabotage. We saw antifreeze, battery acid, used engine drain oil,  an unidentified biological contaminant of some sort. that one kept regrowing about a week after that system would be cleaned and flushed thoroughly scrubbed and refilled. After assorted attempts with biocides and two or three cycles of cleaning eventually they scrapped the machine because it was quite old and it was a 500 gallon system I think. 
I’m sure I’m forgetting a few more.


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## JimBear (Feb 19, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Cool.  I should have access to just about any lubricant they make.  I assume I'll be doing most of my splitting in the fall, through the winter, and in the spring.  Doubtfully in the summer heat, but maybe.  The old farmer's rule is to have all the wood split and stacked before Easter... yeah right.
> 
> This splitter actually has an in/out gearbox thing in between the engine and pump, so while it's not a clutch, it's still a neat way to disengage the hydraulics when needed.


I believe you said you were going to NAPA for your oil, they should have exactly what you want & may even have it it bulk so if you have your own jugs/buckets it could save you some money also. Our local NAPA carries bulk oil from Northland and several other brands in 5gallon - 1quart sizes. As far as oil type I believe Hy-Tran oil is cheaper than ATF. CASE/IH calls it HY-Tran, JD calls it HY- Gard or something similar but that’s what they use in the transmission & hydraulic systems of their tractors. My Dad & brother use their chore tractor year round, when it’s negative temps the loader is a bit slow but after a couple of cycles it works just fine. I would buy 2 filters & the cheapest thing I could get for the first clean out, then change that filter along with the oil, then put some better oil in on the subsequent refill. You may even be able to sell that oil to someone with a used oil burning heater. Water shouldn’t be an issue if they have a skimmer.


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## jwfirebird (Feb 19, 2018)

some times tractor supply has the universal rear fluid on sale, i use it in alot of stuff, some quads, splitter, tractor, etc. it normally 20 for 2 gal for the wet clutch 50 for 5g sometimes they have it for 40


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## Tar12 (Feb 19, 2018)

Go with whatever is cheapest as you are tossing it anyway...I will have to say you win first prize for the worst hydro fluid I have ever seen!


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## jetsam (Feb 19, 2018)

Tar12 said:


> Go with whatever is cheapest as you are tossing it anyway...I will have to say you win first prize for the worst hydro fluid I have ever seen!



I'm going to give it second prize, but only because of this:



nezwick said:


> This stuff doesn't look half as bad as what came out of the rear end of our '44 2N when I first got it.  It was chunky and looked like butterscotch pudding.



"chunky butterscotch pudding"


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## jwfirebird (Feb 19, 2018)

i tarp mine too, the fluid dont like water, and all kinds of expensive things to destroy in the engine


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## brenndatomu (Feb 19, 2018)

TSC has reasonable prices on oil...but if you ever get down to Wooster, RKO has better prices on tractor hydraulic fluid...especially on sale...IIRC I gave a lil over $20 for 5 gallons...been working just fine in my Champion 23 ton splitter...probably the same oil it had from new since I bought it there and it was already assembled and running.
Edit: Heck, I guess it was less than $20! https://www.ruralking.com/super-s-super-trac-303-tractor-hydraulic-fluid-5-gallons-tdh.html


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## salecker (Feb 20, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Did you say ATF? Hydraulic oil and ATF are not the same thing.
> 
> I'd drain that thing asap.


ATF will work fine with hydraulic fluid.Basically the same thing.I add atf to my 950 loader every once in a while because the site glass on the hydraulic tank ha been sand blasted and is hard to see the level of clear hydraulic fluid.It gets used commercially.I have worked it myself on a 2 week long job loading dump trucks 10 hrs a day.It has absolutely no issues working hard.
 My splitter that is stored outside will start up to -20C without warming it up.It has 100% well maybe 98% ATF in it.The ATF stays a liquid longer than 32W hydraulic oil.


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## jwfirebird (Feb 20, 2018)

really atf has a bunch of cleaners though, I use it to clean muddy quad diffs. and its been a bunch more than just tractor diff stuff when I have compared. I doubt it would be bad for it though if the manuals call for it


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 20, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Thanks for your replies!
> 
> There is no external filter to check or change, but the guy said there is an internal cartridge filter underneath a metal plate on top of the tank - which I assume just gets cleaned out with kerosene.  Once I get an opportunity to go outside today, I'll start by taking off the filter cover and checking that out.  That will also give me a chance to look at the condition of the fluid.  There is a sight gauge on the side of the tank for checking the fluid level, but it's too dirty/cloudy to be useful right now.  In general, where should the level be in relation to the suction side hose? Or should the tank just be "full".
> 
> ...


Pictures would be nice.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 20, 2018)

Sorry, I did not see your pictures. I think that unit was used on a dairy farm where the answer to every question was milk, wink.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 20, 2018)

I believe this is one for the record books. That is the milkiest oil I have ever seen. I wonder what an analysis would generate?

I definitely recommend one immediate and possibly two short term changes and one longer term, monitor, then regular intervals.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 20, 2018)

Judging by the size of the mobile home tire and tank behind it, I'd say your pushing about 15 or 20 gallons. If the thank is 20, 75% or 80% might be right, so 15 gallons.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 20, 2018)

Thumbs up for the tractor. I have a 51 Ferguson.


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## nezwick (Feb 20, 2018)

Alright, time to get caught up with all the posts.

We get down to Wooster once a month maybe, and wow that is a good deal on that oil!  I've been past the Rural King on the Lincoln Highway a few times and always wanted to stop and browse but never have.  Now I have an excuse.

I decided against using ATF because of the detergents.  Who knows what might break loose, or what leaks might start once everything gets cleaned out.  I also decided not to disconnect any of the hoses, etc. because I'm not ready to deal with that "can of worms" project.

I did, however, complete the first round of fluid changeouts today.  First, drained all the nasty fluid, removed and cleaned the filter in a bucket of parts washer solvent (it was pretty clogged), wiped all the sludge, debris, and water out of the tank, made a new gasket for the sump cover on the side, and refilled.  It took every drop of *15 gallons*.  Yep - $100 worth of hydraulic oil just to run through and drain back out after a few hours.  I got whatever hydraulic oil was cheapest at NAPA.  Don't even remember what it was - had a forklift picture on the side.  Also took the opportunity to change the engine oil.  The big old Wisconsin takes 3.5 quarts, almost as much as my Kia!

So I drug it back out to the woodpile and cycled it a bunch of times back and forth.  Immediately noticed a difference in the speed of the cylinder as well as the sound of the pump.  Ended up splitting about 1/3 cord, including some real knotty chunks and butt pieces, and man does it work great now.  It will build pressure through the whole range of engine RPM.  It seems like my problem is solved, or nearly so. I know I'll need at least one more fluid change but I kept an eye on the site gauge today and it stayed pretty translucent.  I'll keep an eye on it and do another exchange after a few more hours of work. 

Virginairon, with 15 gallons there is about 2" of head space.  I think you're exactly right with your estimation.  The overall tank is split into two compartments, one for the hydraulic oil and one for the gasoline.  Looks like it would hold over 5 gallons of gasoline.

I do like the 2N.  It's not pretty but it's a hard worker.  It has the rare Howard gear reduction that allows me to drive at a crawl and still have full PTO speed (the Sherman halves the PTO speed).  Needed this feature for brush hogging, and because I may get a rototiller one day.  The one major shortcoming is the lack of 3 point position control like the 8N and newer have.  Makes pulling trailers and dragging a back blade a little more challenging than it should be.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 20, 2018)

15 gallons is a fair amount of oil and might be enough to prevent over expansion of the oil when/if it gets hot. Does the tank have a breather?

In all my years working with engines, axles, transmissions, transaxles, transfer cases, and hydraulic systems, I have never seen an oil that white or milky. The milkiest oil I have ever seen was like an extra light coffee color.

Anyone..., Could that white oil be some special type of oil?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 20, 2018)

VirginiaIron said:


> Anyone..., Could that white oil be some special type of oil?


I've seen oil that milky before, maybe even worse...just takes lots of water, and lots of run time.
I really doubt it is anything special.


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## jetsam (Feb 20, 2018)

He did say he towed it before taking the photo, so maybe it did a lot of bouncing and got the water all mixed in there.  I can't say that I know whether or not the oil and water mix that much from being driven around.  It looked pretty homogenous in that picture!


At any rate, it's splitting wood again!


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## nezwick (Feb 21, 2018)

Well it was a long, bumpy ride home, so I'm sure that stirred up a lot of the issues.  I picked it up in Carroll county and towed it back to Medina behind our minivan.  What a sight that must have been.  I would venture a guess that the fluid had been contaminated for a very long time though.  The guy subtly implied that he only did the bare minimum maintenance to it, but it did have a brand new coil and (supposedly) rebuilt starter.  It's in good hands now though.  We work our equipment hard, sometimes to the brink of its limits, but we take care of it.

I'll get some good detailed pictures of this thing for you guys once I get it cleaned up.  It needs hit with a couple applications of degreaser.


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## Ashful (Feb 21, 2018)

Just be sure to keep it under cover.  If that much water got into the system once before, it’s going to happen again, under the same storage conditions.  A tarp and some bungees go a long way to preventing issues.


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## salecker (Feb 21, 2018)

Someone may have added oil that was contaminated.
My other 950 has water in the hydrolic oil.It is a 1958 model that never dies.I loaned it to a "friend" for a while.I had to go pick it up,wasn't returned.It was low on hydrolic fluid so i added some.When the level came up to the site glass it was milky.He always has buckets of oil sitting around his yard,i am sure that is where the water came from.
 Next summer i will drain the tank,fill with diesel and cycle all cylinders,drain,change filter and repeat.Then i will fill with new oil and hope that i got it clean enough.After all it isn't used for anything except yard work and it is so old i want to see how long i can keep it alive.


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## nezwick (Feb 21, 2018)

Meh... it's back to its same old behavior.  Did about another 1/3 cord today.  Only difference is that it was 70 degrees yesterday and is about 36 degrees today.

Oil is starting to get milky again.  I guess it's time for the 2nd change.  I wish there was a drain petcock in the tank so I could slowly drain out the water and trash that gets to the bottom of the tank.  But there isn't, so it's all or nothing once the sump cover is removed.

My brother is a welder/fabricator, and I think one of my neighbors is too, so at some point I should be able to install a proper drain.


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## jetsam (Feb 21, 2018)

Is it foamy after you run it, or just milky?

After it sits overnight, does it clear up again? If it's got water in it, the water should separate out and float up to the top, so it'll look clear until you run it again.

Edit: and by "float up to the top" I mean "sink down to the bottom". The OIL floats up to the top.


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## nezwick (Feb 21, 2018)

Just looks milky through the sight glass, but I did not unbolt the top cover to check for foam/bubbles like there were in my pictures.

At quick glance, the oil looked good when I went out to get started this morning.  I'll let you know tomorrow what it looks like after sitting overnight.

It's covered under a tarp.  And to answer the question that was asked up the thread a bit:  no breather on the tank.


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## jetsam (Feb 21, 2018)

If it looked cloudy yesterday after use and clear this morning after sitting, that's water. It will clear up when it sits because the oil floats to the top. When you run it the pump mixes them together and it goes cloudy

To save yourself a bunch of oil changes, maybe you should park it on an hill so that the corner of the tank nearest the opening faces downhill. In the morning drop some tubing into that bottom corner and try to suck all the water out- it should all be in the downhill corner of the tank.

If you want to do a change, you could also punch a hole in that corner, drain everything, and put a petcock in the hole. Tank's not under pressure.  Then you'd have a way to drain water as needed.


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## Ashful (Feb 21, 2018)

Another vote for trying to get water out of the bottom, after it’s sat all night.  A few cycles of this, topping it off with oil in-between, might save you a few hundred dollars in repeated oil changes.  Water will settle to the bottom of the tank, after a period of sitting.


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## nezwick (Feb 21, 2018)

Yep.  I'll have to have a bung welded in the corner/bottom of the tank in order to install a petcock, right?  Or do they make ones that go through a 3/4" drilled hole (for example) with a nut and gasket on the inside to secure and seal it?  

Good idea re: sucking out the water from the bottom without fully draining.  I'll tilt it up tonight and see how much water has settled out tomorrow.


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## Ashful (Feb 21, 2018)

Given you won’t be draining this 15 gallon pig that often, I’d just settle for a suction pump or turkey baster, to get the water out this time.  I’d not bother installing a bung, unless I thought it was going to get yearly use.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 21, 2018)

You could syphon that oil back into the original containers, park the unit on a steep slope, and still a hole in what would be the lowest corner if tilted the other way. The hole will be equal or less than one of the self tapping/ threaded and washed drain pan plugs


https://www.google.com/search?q=sel...d-metropcs-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


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## kevin j (Feb 21, 2018)

I am not convinced it is water yet. Might be, but I think it may be air. 
Run it until it is ‘milky’, shut down, and mark sight gauge at the best guess of level. If it water emulsified, then settles, the total fluid level won’t change. If it is aerated, the level will go slightly down as a small percent of air comes out and goes upward. 

When you said no tank vent, do you mean totally sealed and locked down?If so, as tghe rod extends, the tank head space will become a vacuum and draw air into pump shaft seal or suction hose joints. It needs some sort of breather, or a fairly large head space of air.

I think there are multiple issues. First was fluide contamination of some sort You are making progress.


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## Ashful (Feb 21, 2018)

With it working for a short period, and now returning to its former state, I'd want to have another look at that filter.  I'd bet it's clogged.  Even water makes a pretty decent non-compressible hydraulic fluid, when it's not frozen, so I'd doubt it's just water in the system.

_edit:  hah, I see kevin j and I were thinking the same thing at the same time.  Our posts went up simultaneously._


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## nezwick (Feb 22, 2018)

Interesting point about the (lack of) breather vent.  Something I can try to test that theory is to open the fill plug during operation and see if performance improves.  Oddly enough, that thought passed through my mind even before I made my first post on this board, but I was afraid to do it because I thought the tank was under pressure and all the fluid would shoot out in my face.

It is "totally sealed and locked down" as you put it.  As far as I can tell, the only way of admitting air into the tank is through the gaps between the tank and the various covers/panels attached to it.  I already eliminated one "leak" by installing a new cork/rubber gasket where there wasn't one, so I may have unknowingly made the problem worse.  There is one more spot needing a gasket that I hadn't got to yet.  Perhaps that's where the air and water were being drawn in.

I also agree the filter may have become clogged again.  This is pretty similar to what I have.  The machine seemed to work really great after the initial fluid change and filter cleaning, and there was definitely a lot of trash in the tank.


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## kevin j (Feb 22, 2018)

OK so you have a recleanable wire mesh  return filter. the pluse they are re-cleanable. the downside is they are pretty coarse  and usually don’t have a bypass valve although it could be hiding in there somewhere.  this is a bunny trail but I would pitch the wiremesh element and put a standard screw on disposable cartridge filter outside the system somewhere but that’s a project for a later day

 and yes, run it the next time with the filler plug unscrewed or taken out and see if that makes a difference. again I think we’re chasing several different problems but that would be an easy test for one of them.


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## triptester (Feb 22, 2018)

The picture is a suction strainer but it looks to small for use with hydraulic fluids. What is the size?


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## nezwick (Feb 22, 2018)

I think the filter is on the suction side, not the return side.  It's under the cover on the top of the tank and fitted to the hose that comes out of it.  That big hose runs over to the top/rear of the pump.


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## nezwick (Feb 22, 2018)

I didn't record the part number of the filter, but by my rough estimations it's about 8-10 inches in length and 4 inches around.  As far as microns go, I'd have to research the part number.


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## triptester (Feb 22, 2018)

If the strainer is mounted vertically it might not be fully submerged all the time allowing air to be sucked in. In general there are several design problems with the tank. Suction line routing, suction and return to close, no vent.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 22, 2018)

nezwick said:


> I think the filter is on the suction side, not the return side.  It's under the cover on the top of the tank and fitted to the hose that comes out of it.  That big hose runs over to the top/rear of the pump.
> 
> 
> View attachment 223408




What a beast!
What is the threaded plug on top of the sweeping 90 and short 90? If that is the filler pipe is, you could drill a hole in that plug to make a breather. There may be a hole in there already and unless you protect it from rain will be a point of minimal water infiltration/contamination. This can be corrected with a soup can during storage or wet weather use. Due to the level/height of your sight glass, it would appear too high to be effective for expansion, if needed due to volume/heat, since most expansion would end up inside the sweeping 90.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 22, 2018)

This tank unit looks like a storage tank from a steam condensate pump.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 22, 2018)

Make sure you have a similar breather hole in the cap of the fuel tank (assumed adjacent to the tank) or the engine will draw a vacuum and stall every so minutes/hours until the vacuum subsides. Don't forget the soup can.


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## jetsam (Feb 22, 2018)

triptester said:


> If the strainer is mounted vertically it might not be fully submerged all the time allowing air to be sucked in. In general there are several design problems with the tank. Suction line routing, suction and return to close, no vent.



I dunno about the strainer taking in air, unless it's mounted high in the tank. There's a 15g reservoir that dwarfs the fluid capacity of the cylinder and lines... the fluid level can't change that much when the cylinder extends.

Or maybe it's on a flexible line inside the tank and the intake height varies!


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## nezwick (Feb 22, 2018)

The threaded plug on top of the sweeping 90 is *supposedly* the fill port for the hydraulic oil.  However, it's nearly impossible to use for that because it's so small.  I'm actually wondering if that's where a breather is supposed to go.  Or, maybe it's supposed to be cracked open while in use to act as the breather.  The guy didn't say anything about that.  When I filled the 15 gallons, I did it via the big top plate.


The strainer is mounted horizontally, and it sits about 1" from the bottom of the tank.  It is attached to a rigid piece of pipe and can't move around.

Regarding the sight glass, I can watch the level drop as I extend the cylinder and rise when it's retracted.

It's pouring rain today so I can't do much with the splitter this morning.

I think you're right about vacuum occurring in the fuel tank too.  Every now and then the engine just about stalls and I have to quickly hit the choke/throttle to recover it.  I thought it was the governor acting up, but it could be this too.


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## kevin j (Feb 22, 2018)

so that’s a suction strainer, not a filter. It’ll be very coarse.  I think Jerry’s onto something that if that strainer is not fully submerged all the time it will be sucking air.  typically there would be a a pipe going straight down toward the bottom then a 90° elbow and the strainer should lay horizontally down in the bottom of the tank. it needs at least a couple inches of oil over the top of the stranger to prevent vortexing and sucking in air. there are ways to baffle box around and use the strainer vertically but it’s more complicated than you want to get into here.

edit: duh, you said in post above strainer is installed correctly near bottom. never mind........

 The pictures really helpful

 that tee at the top of the curved pipe if that’s a dead-end thing that would be a good place to put a breather or at the pipe stub sticking up at the back corner by the tail light.


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## nezwick (Feb 22, 2018)

Strainer not filter, got it.  I'll have to get a hydraulic shop make a new return hose with a filter adapter so I can spin on a good filter.

The way you describe how the strainer should be, is exactly how it is.

I'll definitely try to open up the plug at the top of the curved pipe to see if admitting air into the tank will help the issue.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 22, 2018)

You don't need a new return hose. I would plumb the filter assembly, 1- 90, 1 COUPLING, 1 nipple below the the "T" and put your return hose into filter assembly. I would change the location .of the present "T" so it faces up in a horizontal position with a verticle nipple to a breather, and clean up that pipework. This may also reduce turbulence at the present T location that might be adding these bubbles.


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## nezwick (Feb 22, 2018)

That makes good sense.  Thanks for the diagram.  The fill pipe thing is definitely useless as it is, so I think that's a good plan to eliminate it and replace it with a filter.  It was clearly an afterthought.  I would definitely feel better with a proper filter and breather vent.


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## kevin j (Feb 22, 2018)

maybe this was covered earlier but how does the return go into the tank just into the top above the fluid level?That would be a source of massive aeration also. or is there a standpipe that goes down halfway or a little more down towards the bottom under the fluid level?


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## brenndatomu (Feb 22, 2018)

nezwick said:


> The fill pipe thing is definitely useless as it is, so I think that's a good plan to eliminate it and replace it with a filter


Theres no vent there? In the absence of a proper vent elsewhere, that "fill pipe" thingy is exactly where I'd expect to find a vent...in this case probably a small hole drilled into the side of one of the flats on the pipe plug


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## nezwick (Feb 22, 2018)

kevin j, I'll check for the answer to your question tomorrow.  I can't remember, but I'm leaning more toward there being no standpipe.

brenndatomu, just looked, no hole at all.  So either the plug with the breather hole has been replaced with a solid one, or it just wasn't part of the original plan.  Maybe they just cracked open the plug for the vent action.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 22, 2018)

I would think the only issue would be pressurization due to heat since everything leaving the tank is returning to the tank, with the caveat that once the tank starts to cool it could go into a vacuum and draw water moisture through poor gaskets, etc.. This could be indicated by the collapsing of the vibration damper/soft hose, if applicable, at the pump intake.


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## kevin j (Feb 22, 2018)

There is a drawdown in the tank as the rod extends. Difference in volume out vs volume in is the steel volume of the rod.   a quart goes into cylinder closed side extending rod, but only maybe 3/4 quart comes back out of the rod side.

motors are one to one.  Systems with accumulators really draw the tank level down as tghe accumulator charges and discharges. 

The tank vacuum by itself is not an issue, if there was no breather. But if it draws a slight vacuum, then pump shaft seal, or hose connections, can leak air into system. 

I am really curious now on the return, standpipe or not......


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## kevin j (Feb 22, 2018)

Aeration:  Disclaimer: scare story, it won’t happen to you, different scenario.

We had a machine with 500 gal tank, I think 18 gear pumps and 5 piston pumps, about 600 gpm of gear pump continuous flow at high idle. New startup out of the shop went ok. Parked overnight on a rail siding 10 miles out and got to about 0F that night. Next morning started up sluggish but ok, engage pump drive, and low idle for a few minutes. All good, flip the switch to high idle. About 10 seconds later, the steel top of the hydr tank (4 ft x 6 ft) and about 200 lbs of engine air cleaners blew off and landed 70 ft away in the weeds. flash and smoke and excitement. Took weeks of testing and autopsy, (not my design,I got called into the autopsy phase to figure out what happened.).   it was a combination of thick oil building up in one compartment, not enough open baffle areas, and SEVERE aeration in one compartment due to a big check valve issue. The thick oil built up pressure in one compartment, tore the bolts loose, which caused a spark that ignited the aerated/foam/foamed oil in another compartment and ignited like a bomb.

Lesson, combination of small changes not thought through, check valve aerating oil but ok when warm, baffle changes ok when warm, machine destined for India so it had ISO 68 oil in it, very thick, but testing in Minnesota cold weather, all converged.   If had been tested in India, never would have had the issue, but still the baffle and aeration issues would have been hidden in the tank.    Everything seems obvious in hindsight. Luckily, no one injured or killed.


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## triptester (Feb 22, 2018)

Putting the vent on the same tee as the return line may cause more aeration problems. Using the capped nipple at the rear corner would be better for the vent.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 23, 2018)

triptester said:


> Putting the vent on the same tee as the return line may cause more aeration problems. Using the capped nipple at the rear corner would be better for the vent.


I believe that is the only opening to the tank. The tank could easily be drilled and looks thick enough to be tapped without welding. The cap in the rear, I believe, is a separate chamber/tank and used for fuel storage. With these limited options I was thinking the best position would be to use the T (vent) in the verticle position so flow is straight through the fitting after the filter where pressure is likely to be minimal. Thoughts & comments?


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## triptester (Feb 23, 2018)

A vent could be installed in the cover that holds the suction pipe. This would allow the install to be done without worry of metal shavings or welding sparks near the tank.


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## nezwick (Feb 23, 2018)

kevin, that's one crazy story.  Sounds like some of the things my brother used to be involved with (he worked for Brookville locomotive in PA).

Yep, the capped nipple at the rear of the tank is the fill for the gasoline (the tank is divided into two compartments).  

I will have some free time this morning to dig into some of these issues.  First, check for the presence of water in the tank and remove if needed.  Second, check/clean the strainer.  Third, try operating the splitter with the "vent" plug open to test for the vacuum condition.  

And I'll try to take pictures along the way.


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## kevin j (Feb 23, 2018)

And check the return connection and routing.


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## jetsam (Feb 23, 2018)

This is the best splitter thread ever.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 23, 2018)

jetsam said:


> This is the best splitter thread ever.




I'll bite..., why?


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## nezwick (Feb 23, 2018)

Well guys it rained here all morning and we had family stuff this afternoon so no splitter troubleshooting today... hopefully tomorrow!


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## jetsam (Feb 23, 2018)

VirginiaIron said:


> I'll bite..., why?



Why??

Homemade splitter, mystery being resolved, technical experts talking hydraulic bits... we also had a big explosion if all that's not enough for ya!


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 24, 2018)

I'll agree. There are so many success stories on here and a lot of knowledgeable people in the forum who are eager to help someone. Plus the gear section is a smorgasbord of topics that will keep the participants engaged


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## greg13 (Feb 24, 2018)

In my 40+ years of doing hydraulic work I have never seen a suction line come out of the TOP of the tank, that right there is a major potential for problems. You are relying 100% on the pump being able to pull fluid to it. I would add a port to the bottom of the tank to supply the pump and let gravity do the work. 

Think back to when you were a kid and you tried to drink soda through a straw with a crack in it, if you got any it was more foam than liquid. The pump will be the same way.If you have ANY type of leak on the suction side the way it is plumbed you will have the same results.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 24, 2018)

Yes, that suction line is doing an alioop and would be better sailing under the beam to the pump. This way the fluid level is already above the pump.


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## Jags (Feb 24, 2018)

I am interested in the definitive answer to whether we are dealing with water or air (possibly both).  And I really don’t like the idea of a closed loop hydro system on this thing.  The in/out of the cylinder WILL create a suction/pressure environment with the volume difference being the the cylinder shaft.


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## rox3406 (Feb 24, 2018)

Water does not “settle “ out of hydro oil over night. Once it’s milk it’s mlik. If it clears up over night it’s air. Plain and simple. Deal with this sort of issue all the time.


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## greg13 (Feb 24, 2018)

Jags said:


> I am interested in the definitive answer to whether we are dealing with water or air (possibly both).  And I really don’t like the idea of a closed loop hydro system on this thing.  The in/out of the cylinder WILL create a suction/pressure environment with the volume difference being the the cylinder shaft.



I agree, there needs to be some type of vent, even if you thread a pipe nipple into the tank and screw an oil filter on it. I have seen that done many times and it does work well.


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## zrock (Feb 24, 2018)

I may have missed it but the oil / fuel is the same tank but separate. Have u checked the oil for fuel contamination? Their may be a pinhole that sucks fuel in when oil tank is creating a vacume 

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 25, 2018)

Jags said:


> I am interested in the definitive answer to whether we are dealing with water or air (possibly both).  And I really don’t like the idea of a closed loop hydro system on this thing.  The in/out of the cylinder WILL create a suction/pressure environment with the volume difference being the the cylinder shaft.


I think that suction due to shaft size is minimal until the pressure increases due to the temperature increase. I


zrock said:


> I may have missed it but the oil / fuel is the same tank but separate. Have u checked the oil for fuel contamination? Their may be a pinhole that sucks fuel in when oil tank is creating a vacume
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk



Greatt point. I thought about addressing that but all the fuel contaminated oil I have seen just looks thin and smells like gas or diesel fuel.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 25, 2018)

zrock said:


> I may have missed it but the oil / fuel is the same tank but separate. Have u checked the oil for fuel contamination? Their may be a pinhole that sucks fuel in when oil tank is creating a vacume
> 
> Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk



I have given this more thought. What if,  since the commission of that vessel, water has accumulated on the lower third of the fuel tank an now that portion of the lower tank has deteriorated and has a tiny perforation?


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## zrock (Feb 25, 2018)

good possibility


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## nezwick (Feb 25, 2018)

Wow everybody, sorry I've been a bit absent.  I do have a couple of answers to the last set of questions that were asked.

1.  Here is a picture of the fluid (after sitting for days, covered by a tarp).  It looks almost just like it did the first time... Hmm. The picture also answers the question about the orientation and depth of the suction strainer.  According to what you said, it appears to be set up correctly.  The strainer was *not* clogged but I put it back in the solvent bath for overnight just for good measure.







2.  There *is* a stand pipe on the return line inside the tank.  It goes almost down to the bottom of the tank.  I just didn't notice it before.  So, that also sounds like it's set up correctly.

3.  On the topic of the bottom of the tank rusted from the water, it was really nice and shiny underneath the layer of gunk I wiped out of it.  The tank is very thick steel.  Hopefully that makes the rusted pin hole less likely of a problem.

4.  Another clue that might help the troubleshooting effort is this.  Before I did any of the disassembly pictured above, I for some reason decided to run the control lever back and forth (engine off) to see what would happen.  I heard a pretty distinct "hissing" noise coming out of the fitting where the suction line connects to the nipple at the top of that plate.  I grabbed a pipe wrench to tighten it, thinking the connection was loose, but everything was nice and tight.  Does there need to be pipe dope or teflon tape on the suction side fittings to seal them?  Because there is none.  Of course, this is all going to be re-done in the event of re-routing the suction line to the bottom of the tank anyway.  But a hissing noise to me would indicate a pretty bad air leak.


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## nezwick (Feb 25, 2018)

Also, the fluid does not smell like gas.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 25, 2018)

That supply pipe from the filter appears to be 1/2 inch ID pipe and the hose appears to the pump appears to be a 1" size. Does your pump require 3/4 or 1" pump inlet supply? If the supply side is too small the pump may cavitate and would explain why it only has force on low rpm. Does the pump make noise?


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 25, 2018)

What is this fitting?


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## nezwick (Feb 25, 2018)

I just measured the ID of that pipe - it is 1".

That other fitting has a small hose connected to it, which also runs to the hydraulic pump.  I had to unhook it in order to get the cover off. I'm not sure of its function though.


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## nezwick (Feb 25, 2018)

If you look back at the picture of the overall machine a couple posts up, you can see how the small hose runs between the pump and tank.

I've been looking at log splitter hydraulic diagrams on the internet and have not come across any that include the extra hose that mine has.  Could it be that the pump has some sort of internal pressure relief or regulator that will just dump out that hose if needed?  For example, this diagram has a separate standalone relief valve that connects to the return side plumbing.  In my case, it terminates directly at the tank.







There is a spot for a pressure gauge in the steel high pressure line that runs between the pump and control valve.  I'll have to get one of those when I'm out and about tomorrow.

The more I study the diagrams and start to understand the system, the more I definitely see the advantage to moving the suction pipe to the bottom/side of the tank instead of down through the top.


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## rox3406 (Feb 25, 2018)

The small hose could be a case drain. Bleeds off any internal case pressure from leakage internally in the pump. If the guy that built that unit took the pump off an old piece of equipment then a case drain wouldn’t be in common. Never see one on any newer splitters though.


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## nezwick (Feb 25, 2018)

Got it.  No question in my mind the pump was re-purposed from some older piece of equipment.  Who knows what.

It also does appear that there should be pipe dope on all of my NPT connections.  I can think of quite a few that might need inspected.  I bet the air leak I was hearing was coming from where the hose screws onto the nipple.  That's an NPT fitting, and there was no tape/dope present.  I can definitely see there being lots of air drawn in through there when the system was in operation.

I also understand *no* sealant is to be used on the JIC fittings.


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## Ashful (Feb 25, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Got it.  No question in my mind the pump was re-purposed from some older piece of equipment.  Who knows what.
> 
> It also does appear that there should be pipe dope on all of my NPT connections.  I can think of quite a few that might need inspected.  I bet the air leak I was hearing was coming from where the hose screws onto the nipple.  That's an NPT fitting, and there was no tape/dope present.  I can definitely see there being lots of air drawn in through there when the system was in operation.
> 
> I also understand *no* sealant is to be used on the JIC fittings.


This is correct.  Also, if using dope, make sure it's rated for hydraulics, as most aren't.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 26, 2018)

One time, I saw a galvanized length of 1.5 pipe throttled down to about 1/2 inch at a fitting due to a blob of sealant the was rock hard.

I checked the name BEYDEN on line and only found two Chinese companies. 

Is there any other information on the tank, pump, or engine?


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## nezwick (Feb 26, 2018)

It's actually LEYDEN, Melrose Park, Illinois - and if they're actually still in business, they don't have much of a Web presence.

There is no information at all on the engine.  Wish there was because I'd like to know the age/serial.  I knew it was a Wisconsin, but had to use clues like distributor type, etc. to determine it was a TJD and not a THD (14 HP) or any other.  The name plate is supposed to be on the side facing the big tank, but it's long gone.

As for the pump, I'll see if I can get out there and check today.  I didn't see anything last time I looked it over.  Everything has so many layers of paint and oil sludge, it makes identification pretty difficult.


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## kevin j (Feb 26, 2018)

someone has good eyes on that little hose. that’s a case drain and that’s a game changer.  I wasn’t paying close enough attention to what the pump is. I assumed it was a fixed gear pump. can you send a bigger picture of the pump and any name plate info. looks like a variable axial piston pump which would mean if there’s pressure drop in the outlet pressure side that the pump will compensate back and reduce thd flow. start with a picture of the pump and then we need to get a pressure gauge on the outlet of the pump or preferably close to the pump as possible.

 if this is a pressure compensated variable piston pump then it’s likely that the valve is a close center. That shouldn’t affect anything we’re talking about but it something to keep in mind 


 what fluid is in the system now? engine oil ATF or hydraulic fluid?


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## kevin j (Feb 26, 2018)

more thoughts. 
1. Even if there’s no tag on the pump some pictures and if there’s anything like symbols cast into the pump housing or any trademarks. it looks probably like it’s going to be Cessna or vickers but there several older piston pump makers. 
2. next any lay line information on that suction hose? There should be some kind of a printed or embossed information running the length of the holes. with the crimped end fittings it looks like it’s a re-purposed pressure hose.  
3. do the end fittings look correct for what they connect to? it looks like it has JIC swivel ends on the hose which would be the most common but is it possible that the JIC was screwed onto a pipe thread? is there any evidence of cross threading or jamming it together. deformed threads it would be leaking air 

4. next question there’s no substitute like being there in person but could you take a video of this thing do a complete walk around and see each area close up. then do a video while it’s running to be able to hear what the sound is. 

 this is becoming combat. we will not be defeated !


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## Jags (Feb 26, 2018)

Whatever that fluid is in the tank didn’t happen because of gas contaminating it.  Best guess is still water, but there could be some airation involved as well.  I believe the OP stated that he did not remove the hoses when changing the fluid the first time.  That leaves quite a bit of oil in the rest of the system.  Heck - a 6” diameter cylinder could have enough volume to recontaminate new oil.  I am not saying I know the answer (yet - stick with us OP and we will get it worked out), just pointing out some long distance observances.

Interesting stuff on the variable axle piston pump.  That is new territory for me.

Side note: if the hydro tank and fuel tank had a leak between the two, it would most likely contaminate both sides. Especially if there were a suction/pressure environment. Another test would be if both sides stay level with each other.  Fluid seeks its own level.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 26, 2018)

I think the OP should send some pictures of the tank and whole unit to Leyden and maybe some older tech might have something to say.


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## Jags (Feb 26, 2018)

VirginiaIron said:


> I think the OP should send some pictures of the tank and whole unit to Leyden and maybe some older tech might have something to say.



Not a bad idea, but I am betting our very own hero of hydro (@kevin j ) has this sucker in the cross hairs. On a selfish note - I might just get to learn something too.


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## nezwick (Feb 26, 2018)

Yeah, there is quite a bit of information on the hose.   Next time I go out I will write it down and report it here.

Here's a quick 5min walkaround video for you.  Sorry for my amateur narration and shaky camera work, but videography's not my profession...



I'll need to find a way to set the iPad up so it will film me trying to split wood.


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## Ashful (Feb 26, 2018)

Love the exhaust pipe!  Time to switch it to a smoke stack with a flapper.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 26, 2018)

I noticed a nameplate above the pump at what appears to be an adapter plate on the engine. 

I also have a 1971 Hobart DC welder with a similar Wisconsin engine. I have paperwork for the engine and I will see if I can find it. Maybe it will be some help to you.


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## nezwick (Feb 26, 2018)

Actually, I *am* going to get a tractor muffler for it with the flapper, not joking.  There is no muffler right now and it's LOUD.  It sounds like someone is revving their Harley out in the pasture.  The neighbors surely hate us because of our loud old equipment collection.  You can see how close their house is to the wood pile (our farm was subdivided back in the early 1970s and of course some tool stuck a house right there.


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## greg13 (Feb 26, 2018)

I would guess the Wisconsin motor is from the 70's. Parts are getting harder and harder to find for them. I think Subaru ended up owning them. I haven't worked on one since the 80's and even back then the parts were over priced.
The pump may be a vickers. they were a common pump in the 70's also. 
You can answer the question of a leak between the tanks by pressurizing the Hydraulic tank and checking the fuel tank, it will only take 10-20 psi in the tank to make bubbles in the fuel tank.  
For future reference if you have any galvanized pipe or fittings you will want to change them to black iron or steel. Galvanizing has been known to flake off in Hydraulic systems and take out pumps.


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## kevin j (Feb 27, 2018)

Great video. P.m. sent. I’ll post here later

 it is a variable pressure compensated piston pump.


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## triptester (Feb 27, 2018)

Be very careful when pressurizing a flat sided tank it takes very little pressure to bulge the sides. At the shop they use regulated air at 5 psi max. when testing tanks.
The cylinder appears to be a pneumatic cylinder, by the looks of the end caps and the size of the tie-rods, rather than a hydraulic cylinder. Pneumatic cylinders have a much lower pressure rating.
I don't think that spark plug in the discharge line has a hydraulic rating.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 27, 2018)

triptester said:


> I don't think that spark plug in the discharge line has a hydraulic rating


Should be good for a least a couple hundred PSI


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## salecker (Feb 27, 2018)

What a cool awesome over engineered spilter.
Makes the junk they sell nowadays look pretty cheap.


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## VirginiaIron (Feb 27, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Should be good for a least a couple hundred PSI


Some race engines have about 1500 psi on the power stroke. However, I've seen small base plugs spit out in oil contaminated cylinders of stock engines. It looks like it might take the knee out if it releases unexpectedly, but then it looks like a Champ brand?, lol. What about the danger from the oil? I still might want to turn that fitting away from the operator.


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## Ashful (Feb 27, 2018)

VirginiaIron said:


> Some race engines have about 1500 psi on the power stroke. However, I've seen small base plugs spit out in oil contaminated cylinders of stock engines. It looks like it might take the knee out if it releases unexpectedly, but then it looks like a Champ brand?, lol. What about the danger from the oil? I still might want to turn that fitting away from the operator.



Hydraulic failures are usually somewhat anticlimactic.  Unlike a compressible gas, where there’s all sorts of stored energy to be released, non-compressible fluids can’t store up much energy at log splitter pressures (3000 psi) prior to the failure.

What can be dangerous is fluid escaping a pin hole at high velocity, but that’s different than an ejected spark plug.


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## blades (Feb 27, 2018)

in any event gonna cause problems if you catch the plug. Oil under pressure can penetrate skin -nasty infections from that.  Very pricy at the local practitioners of the black arts for either.


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## nezwick (Feb 27, 2018)

Already one step ahead with the spark plug "plug".  I took it out today and replaced it with an actual pipe plug.  The spark plug was barely threaded in (because the threads aren't NPT, duh) and I'm shocked it didn't come shooting out.  

I also did a little maintenance to the engine - new plugs, wires, cleaned debris out of the shroud.  Installed a muffler too (for a Ford tractor) but it really didn't quiet it down all that much.  Still *super* loud.


YES!  It IS an air cylinder.  I was very confused when I saw the tag and it said "Air".  When I looked up that model in Parker's catalog, it was all about "air" cylinders and I didn't understand.  Honestly never even heard of an air cylinder.










I got a video today of me splitting wood with the splitter.  Of course, it was on its best behavior...  did not really have any trouble with it.  Figures.  I'll post the video on here as soon as I get it uploaded.


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## Jags (Feb 27, 2018)

Take notice of the tag - Norm. W.P. 250.  That stands for normal working pressure 250 psi (air).


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## nezwick (Feb 27, 2018)

Yep, and that's what made even less sense to me, since it is clearly in a hydraulic situation and not pneumatic.  Now I see it's just a case of a person improvising.


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## nezwick (Feb 27, 2018)

Here's the video.  Sorry that all you really get to see is my lower half but the best vantage point I could get was the iPad on the trailer.

In the video, I'm mostly splitting pieces from a live apple tree that the power company cut down back in November.  We all know how much of a pain fruit wood is to split.


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## nezwick (Feb 27, 2018)

Also wanted to mention that I drove around to a ton of places today looking for an hydraulic pressure gauge but nobody carries them. NAPA can order it (3 day wait) or I can drive all the way into Akron where there are a couple industrial supply houses. I might just have NAPA order instead of going through Northern or Amazon. Got to show support to the brick and mortar stores. 

I ended up splitting and stacking a little over a cord today. It was a bit temperamental in the beginning. But after misbehaving for maybe 5-6 logs, it corrected itself and worked fine the rest of the day. It gets better with every little change I make. It’s slow going but I do already have 3.5 of my 10+ cords all ready to go for next season thanks to this machine. 

I do want to address the tank pressurization issue next. If I can install the breather in the top cover, I’ll do the “upside down oil filter” trick. I’ll get to use my drill press on steel for the first time ever.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 27, 2018)

nezwick said:


> I might just have NAPA order instead of going through Northern or Amazon. Got to show support to the brick and mortar stores.


Tractor Supply and/or Rural King normally have hydraulic pressure gauges in stock...


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## nezwick (Feb 27, 2018)

Our TSC (Wadsworth) didn't.  I was pretty surprised, and also surprised about NAPA since they make hydraulic hoses and sell all the fittings. Not sure when I'll get down to Wooster next for Rural King, but it definitely won't be in the next couple of days.  I even stopped at a place that sells and services large equipment like dozers, backhoes, and big earth movers.  The guy there told me he just orders stuff like that from Northern haha


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## nezwick (Feb 27, 2018)

salecker said:


> What a cool awesome over engineered spilter.
> Makes the junk they sell nowadays look pretty cheap.



I finally figured out how to use the quoting on this forum.  Cool over-engineered things are just my cup of tea.    And so is accumulating equipment that are so old and so uncommon that parts are impossible to find.  We have a cement mixer with a Briggs 9R6 on which the coil and armature failed.  I only got to use it for one project before it just wouldn't give any more spark.  If anybody has ever tried to find parts for that series (8, 9, 14, etc.) then you understand the struggle.  Ended up buying a reproduction coil, but didn't find the armature, so that repair project stalled.  Just this week I found a NOS armature on eBay and bought it up.  It should be here by the weekend.  I'm wondering if I'll have the same experience with Wisconsin parts (this is my first Wisconsin).

And yeah, below is the splitter my brother has (HF 20 ton).  I thought it was pretty nice when he got it a couple years ago. 







When I go to Tractor Supply I look at the ones sitting out front.  With their puny frames and their 6.5 HP engines (lol) they all look like children's play toys compared to this behemoth I found.  Just have to get all the kinks worked out of this one.

Only issue is, since last year I've been bucking up logs into 28-30" pieces and those are between 4-6" too long for this splitter.  I was only considering the length of my firebox, not even thinking that a splitter wouldn't accept them.  It looks like if I re-designed the push plate someday (seems like there are a few inches of wasted space), I can actually split the longer pieces I need for my OWB.


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## salecker (Feb 28, 2018)

I wouldn't change the wedge to accommodate longer wood.My self i would change the cylinder.You have identified that it is in a wrong application.You can see on the beam where there was a mount for a longer cylinder.
 You should be able;e to buy a new cylinder with a longer stroke that is a oil cylinder.Changing the mount for the rear would be easier than the wedge.Plus changing the wedge may make the distance to far for the air cylinder to split all longer wood in one stroke.
 Or find a used one cheap.I bought a new cylinder for my tow truck for $300.00 canadien peso's.
 One more tip...if you start having tires that go flat put a tube in them.The Mobile Home tires are awesome for carrying wight on paved roads.But they are high pressure tires with a low angle on the rim.If they have low pressure they don't seal as tight and can go flat easy.


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## nezwick (Feb 28, 2018)

Ah, I guess I see what you mean about being limited by the stroke of the cylinder.  The part I was going to change was the pusher plate that's attached to the cylinder, not the stationary wedge, but I now understand that would be equally as futile.  

Good tip about the tubes.  Although I am fortunate enough to have a family member who is in the business of moving pre-fab buildings, and he can just take bad tires/rims to some place and "exchange" them.  One of the reasons all of the trailers my brother builds all have MH axles/tires.  I wonder if I can have tubes put in the tires on the cement mixer.  It was built 1958 or 59 and still has the original Seiberling tires (made right here in Barberton, OH) but they are dry rotted and don't hold air.

Back on topic, I used the splitter some more today.  Did another 2/3 cord.  It acted exactly the same as yesterday - temperamental at first, but once it "warmed up" it worked pretty decent.


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 2, 2018)

For now, cook some soup from a can- Drill a tiny hole straight through the plug- install plug- place empty soup can On breather (plug) assembly. Go 2 town...


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## brenndatomu (Mar 2, 2018)

Isn't there still a safety issue here with putting 1000, 2000, maybe more(?) PSI on an air cylinder rated for only a couple hundred?


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## Jags (Mar 2, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Isn't there still a safety issue here with putting 1000, 2000, maybe more(?) PSI on an air cylinder rated for only a couple hundred?



I am interested in this as well.  I am not familiar with air or the cylinder design/build.  I do know one thing is that the rods that hold the end caps on that cylinder aren’t nearly as big in diameter as the ones on my 5”.  I was hoping @kevin j  might chime in on this.


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## triptester (Mar 3, 2018)

The pressure rating is the pressure at which the cylinder was designed to operate without causing any damage to components. There is also a safety factor of 4 to 1 between working pressure and burst pressure. Burst pressure is the average pressure at which failure occurs.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 3, 2018)

triptester said:


> The pressure rating is the pressure at which the cylinder was designed to operate without causing any damage to components. There is also a safety factor of 4 to 1 between working pressure and burst pressure. Burst pressure is the average pressure at which failure occurs.


So that means this cyl would have a ~1000 PSI burst pressure then right?
IIRC there was a tag that rated it at 250 operating pressure...


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## triptester (Mar 3, 2018)

Burst pressure is a average for a one time test. Subjecting the cylinder to above rated pressure  slowly weakens the cylinder over time lowering the burst pressure.


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## Ashful (Mar 4, 2018)

Can’t speak to this old rig, but the bypass on most modern splitters is set around 3000 - 3500 psi.  So, your 4:1 safety factor on a 250 PSI working pressure is still dangerous territory.


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## Jags (Mar 4, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Can’t speak to this old rig, but the bypass on most modern splitters is set around 3000 - 3500 psi.



Not sure this holds true. Most 2 stage splitter pumps have a max rating of 3000 PSI and I believe many of the box store type splitters are set somewhere below that. 2750 PSI is the numbers I have heard the most.
There are those on the market that will/can exceed these numbers, but I think that is the exception, not the rule.

That said, it sure doesn’t fix the potential issue of the OP using a cylinder not intended for typical splitter pressure.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 4, 2018)

Maybe that fancy dancy pump does not develop high PSI? Or maybe a lower pressure regulator built into the system?
Guess we won't know until @nezwick  gets a pressure gauge installed.


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## Jags (Mar 4, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Guess we won't know until @nezwick  gets a pressure gauge intalled.


Ding, Ding, Ding.  Guessing at hydraulic pressure is the work of the devil.


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## Ashful (Mar 4, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Maybe that fancy dancy pump does not develop high PSI? Or maybe a lower pressure regulator built into the system?
> Guess we won't know until @nezwick  gets a pressure gauge installed.



... and stalls the thing in something gnarly.   Typical running pressure is no indication of bypass setting.


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## greg13 (Mar 4, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Maybe that fancy dancy pump does not develop high PSI? Or maybe a lower pressure regulator built into the system?
> Guess we won't know until @nezwick  gets a pressure gauge installed.



Axial piston pumps have the potential to build MORE pressure than gear type pumps. But you have a relief in the system to control the pressure, but with no gauge it it any one's guess what it is.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 4, 2018)

greg13 said:


> Axial piston pumps have the potential to build MORE pressure than gear type pumps


Axial piston pump...oh yeah, I know what those are! Duh, had a lil brain fade there for a while!  
For anyone not familiar...https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...3E292CC3FC2A2D4C93C03E292CC3FC2A2D4&FORM=VIRE
So I wonder how this one is set up? If it is variable displacement then the further you pull the lever the faster the ram will go...and the less power it will have...


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## greg13 (Mar 4, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Axial piston pump...oh yeah, I know what those are! Duh, had a lil brain fade there for a while!
> For anyone not familiar...https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...3E292CC3FC2A2D4C93C03E292CC3FC2A2D4&FORM=VIRE
> So I wonder how this one is set up? If it is variable displacement then the further you pull the lever the faster the ram will go...and the less power it will have...



 That looked like a fixed plate to me, I didn't  see any shaft on the side to vary the Swash plate angel.


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## nezwick (Mar 5, 2018)

Tragedy strikes

So I got myself a gauge and 3 more buckets of hydraulic oil to do another oil change while I had everything apart.  Wanted to do a little splitting just to get everything good and warmed up before the change... put a piece of hard maple on that must have been frozen because it just wouldn't crack and caused the engine to nearly stall.  Once the engine recovered, I started hearing a knocking/banging noise coming from the pump, and the cylinder wouldn't move.  Once I realized what was happening, I immediately shut down the pump.  The noise stopped and the engine runs fine, so it's not coming from the engine.  As soon as I try to re-engage the pump, I hear the banging noise again.  Sounds like something inside the pump has failed.  I stopped everything to prevent further damage.

I called around to a few hydraulic shops and they will diagnose for $50 (which is waived if I have them do repairs).  Of course it would help to know the manufacturer/model of the pump.  I might remove the pump and try to strip off some of the paint before I take it in.  Messing with that is definitely not something I am comfortable doing DIY, even with the guidance of all you awesome people.


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## Ashful (Mar 5, 2018)

I’d be inclined to just replace the pump, but knowing a new cylinder might be in the cards, we would need a decision on that, before sizing the pump.  You reported engine is 18 hp, so you could swing a big pump.

I’m no hydraulics expert, but if it were mine, I’d buy 28 GPM 2-stage gear pump (the biggest you’re likely to find cheap), and the smallest bore cylinder I could find with 3/4” NPT (or SAE-12) ports.  Then I’d ditch the unloader valve, and plumb it up simple, like any modern log splitter.

28 GPM could give you some pretty respectable stroke times.  A 6” x 24” cylinder would be 12.6 seconds round trip, which is... meh.  If you could find a 5” X 24” cylinder, you’d have a much more useable 8.7 seconds.

You’re unlikely to find a 4” x 24” cylinder with 3/4” ports (believe me, I’ve tried), without going custom, but that would get you a blistering 5.6 seconds round-trip time.  Hoorah!


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## nezwick (Mar 5, 2018)

Well I got the pump off the machine and I do want to at least take it in for an evaluation before replacing it.  It's a cast iron monster and might be worth putting the money into rebuilding it - if it isn't completely trashed.  We'll see.

greg13 and kevin j both win the prize - it's a Vickers.

The info was cast into the pump on the under-side (perhaps it was mounted upside down).  Which also made me wonder, shouldn't a case drain be on the bottom and not the top, like, for *draining*?


Sperry Rand
Vickers
Model No. *239300*
And another number cast just below the model number is *E134*


I found one on eBay but it isn't exactly the same. Removed from a Ditch Witch.  I wonder if that's what my engine/pump combo came from - ditch witch, skid steer, etc. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speary-Rand-VKKERS-Ditch-Witch-Hydraulic-Pump-239300/132284261200


When I turn the pump by hand, I can feel something inside rattling around and binding up.  Definitely blew something up internally.


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## nezwick (Mar 5, 2018)

If I do end up replacing with a new pump, any recommendations for a good American made brand that meets the figures you listed?  I'll have the hydraulic shop spec something for me too, but I'd like to be able to make a good educated decision.  

Ugh!

And truly, if I'm replacing the cylinder also, I'd rather go with a 30" so I can split pieces that are actually the full length of my OWB firebox.  But we'll cross that bridge once I get the pump assessed.


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## Ashful (Mar 5, 2018)

I’ll leave this to Greg and Kevin.  I’m pretty sure, based on price if nothing else, the log splitter pumps I’ve bought were not made in America.


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## greg13 (Mar 5, 2018)

Due to the amount of moving parts in the pump You will probably feel things rattling around. I would just pop it apart and check it, if it came apart inside you WILL see it, Once you have it apart you will see how it works, it is actually pretty basic. Oil flows in,one port, as the shaft rotates the pistons push the oil under pressure out the other port. Just lay the parts out in order as they come out.If everything is in one piece put it back together. 
Since you have an in & out box (clutch) between the motor & pump the problem may be there rather than the pump so check there first you may get lucky.


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## nezwick (Mar 5, 2018)

An issue with the in & out box did cross my mind, like maybe it popped "partially" out during operation and just wouldn't go back in.  I looked at it briefly, but I think my mind was primarily on the pump.  The mechanisms inside the housing did move back and forth, the keyway looked intact, and everything was really dry.  Wasn't sure if there is supposed to be grease or any other sort of lube inside that housing.  Will need further research.

I can't find any info about my pump on the internet.  Would be nice to have a service manual or some sort of exploded diagram, but I'll take your advice and crack it open tomorrow morning before taking to the shop.  Was afraid that a bunch of spring-loaded or sensitive bits would come flying out and I'd never be able to get them back in.  I had a trash pump apart once but that's about the extent of my experience with pumps.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 5, 2018)

nezwick said:


> I'll take your advice and crack it open tomorrow morning before taking to the shop


My advice would be to clean the pump up good before tearing into it, then clear an area on the bench and lay out a light colored clean towel...a lot harder for any small parts to roll away on a towel...plus it will help soak up the inevitable oil mess. Anytime you take another piece off keep a little tension on it releasing it slowly so to be ready for the surprise spring popping out...a good practice in general when tearing into something for the first time.
There is probably not as many small parts in this unit as you think. Hopefully there is not small parts that used to be big parts!


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## jetsam (Mar 5, 2018)

Pictures! We want pictures!


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## Ashful (Mar 5, 2018)

I assume these little pistons should be treated like lifters in a motor, make sure you track clocking and location of each one, so they go back into their respective bores in the same orientation?  No experience with these pumps, so this is a question.  If my assumptions are correct, get yourself some egg cartons for keeping the parts oriented.


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## nezwick (Mar 6, 2018)

I tried to take it apart this morning, but the allen head screws holding on the solenoid-looking-thing are stripped (wasn't me), so somebody with a set of extractors and replacement screws will need to address that.  I could always grind the heads off but at this point I don't want to accidentally damage anything else.  So off to the shop it goes, probably this afternoon. 

When I turn the pump by hand, it actually gets in a bind.  I have to turn it in reverse to get it un-stuck and then can turn it a bit more.


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## greg13 (Mar 6, 2018)

It almost sounds like it either swallowed something or a bearing came apart. You could try flushing it out with Kerosene and see if anything washes out.There shouldn't any springs that fly when you open it up.

Here is a link that may help give you an idea of what is inside. If you can find a model # that will narrow it down. It seems like there was a tag riveted on the body with the information, 
https://www.google.com/search?q=vic....1.69i57j0.28413j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

It's been the better part of 30 years since I've been into one so I'm working from memory.We used to run them on the Bucket trucks when I was at the tree company. They were a very reliable well built (and expensive) pump.


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## kevin j (Mar 6, 2018)

if it’s a Vickers PV pressure compensated pump series you’ll need to determine whether it’s been running with an open center valve or a close center valve. they typically should be run with the close center valve because they’re quite sensitive to inlet suction condition and to running with no pressure to keep the Pistons against the swash plate. I wouldn’t put any money into fixing it personally.  I think that aeration and suction condition was damaging it but you will need to determine if the valve is closed or open center before putting a gear pump on there.


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## kevin j (Mar 6, 2018)

case drain always goes out the highest position so that the pump stays full of oil and itself purges air out of the case. The PV Vickers is really sensitive to the difference between case pressure and suction pressure. they tend to rattle their slippers against the swashplate if they’re not under load and if there’s a high suction condition.


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## greg13 (Mar 6, 2018)

I agree Kevin, just do an autopsy and see what it died of. Given the age probably not worth fixing. Do some plumbing changes as long as it's down, like pulling the suction off of the bottom of the tank.  If you switch to a gear type pump You can use the case drain port on the tank for the vent.


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## nezwick (Mar 7, 2018)

I was never able to get it apart so I dropped it off at Akron Hydraulic yesterday - should hear back from them tomorrow or Friday.  The guy said 9 times out of 10 with "older" pumps like these, the customer will just end up replacing it (1970s = old??).  Seems like replacement is the consensus here too.  But I will let you know the outcome, and will definitely get pictures of the carnage (unless it's something simple that they can repair for a reasonable cost).  

So a gear pump is probably the replacement of choice huh.  I'd definitely want something that will be able to take full advantage of the big Wisconsin, and wouldn't be as "sensitive" as this one.  AND I want to be able to mount it straight to the in/out clutch using the factory flange without any sort of strange rigging.  I know that's probably a pretty big ask, as a lot of the homemade splitters I've seen have used Lovejoy connectors.

I think a 5x30 cylinder is what I'd like to get, but that may not be in the cards right now depending on how much the pump repair/replacement costs.  I'm not as concerned with "speed" as much as I am with "power".  I have a pretty good tolerance for "slow but steady" machinery.  I plan to still split the smaller, straight grained pieces with a maul and use this machine for the larger, twisted, wet/stringy, or otherwise difficult pieces.

Also, I finally met one of my neighbors down the street who has a fantastic welding/fab shop.  We got to talking and he said we can get together and do any of the plumbing alterations that need welding, cutting, drilling of steel.


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## blades (Mar 7, 2018)

cultivate than relationship with the neighbor, leads to other good things down the road. Guess you could say I am that same type of neighbor sitting here in my little machine shop full of big boy toys.


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## nezwick (Mar 7, 2018)

nezwick said:


>



Hey, so I had a thought after watching a few YouTube vids.  Any chance the 250 on this tag means 250 *bar*?  That would equate 3600+ PSI, and would be in the safe operating range. Yeah, it still says "air", but maybe I'm onto something?


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## brenndatomu (Mar 7, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Any chance the 250 on this tag means 250 *bar*?


No, I really doubt it...American made stuff back in the day only used PSI as far as I know...only ever seen bar used on foreign made stuff. And 250 bar air pressure...WOW!


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## nezwick (Mar 7, 2018)

Meh

Parker Hannifin is a German company now, and the products on their website are rated in bar.   Thought I might have got lucky.

Also cool that Parker was founded in Cleveland, OH.


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## mooselake (Mar 7, 2018)

My late dad was a hydraulics design engineer at Vickers until the early 70s and might have designed that pump.

Hope the repairs work out.  This has been an engrossing saga


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## kevin j (Mar 7, 2018)

More thoughts:

-Cylinder: 250 is most likely psi. Search on the model number and see what Parker has. It is likely a very old model and probably not on inet. Parker is HUGE in hundreds of markets, not just fluid power.


-Was this a very old machine, running for the previous owner years and years, or something just built recently of old parts? i.e. is it a design issue, or a breakdown issue?


-Did the PO run the engine at partial speed and have satisfactory service?


-The reason all this clicks is that the Vickers PV series piston pumps were rated for 1800 rpm max in the industrial version. In the 80's they came out with an M prefix (say MPVxx) for mobile equipment. Still it was only rated up to about 2200 or 2500 rpm, depending on pump size. (Smaller = faster allowable). M was also heavier cast housing for pressure spiking, but that is not likely relevant here. If you are running the engine at higher than the maximum pump speed, it will cavitate, aerate, and possibly lift the block and suddenly drop to very small flow, and eventually mechanically destroy itself.


    RPM limits were determined by two design issues:

1. The fairly restrictive inlet porting in a piston pump compared to gear pump. Flow has to turn 90 degrees, has to be quite small because of area available on the valve plate, and the inlet flow starts and stops with each piston passing the valve plate. All of this means the restriction is high, so speed has to be kept down. As inlet absolute pressure drops, the issue that I brought up earlier with case pressure vs. inlet pressure becomes serious. Hydrostatic pumps have the inlet charged at 300-400 psi to overcome both of these issues.



2. An open loop piston pump has unbalanced forces in the rotating group. That is solved by a big spring in the center of the block. However, as rpm increases, the forces tend to skew the rotating group so the rotating block is not forced perfectly flat against the stationary valve plate. With a very tiny gap, there is leakage, and there is pressure applied to the valve plate in bad places which separates the two surfaces even more, and they lose the seal. It is called 'block lift'. Hydrostatic pumps solve this with the charge pressure system but can still overspeed.  Usually, with overspeed and blocklift, there will be a sudden 'bang' noise and the pump output goes down to almost zero. There is massive flow into the case briefly (sometimes milliseconds), case drain gets overwhelmed, the shaft seals can blow or the case can crack. It usually will not reset itself until the pump goes to a very low speed, or maybe shut completely off and restarted. A hydrostatic pump can suddenly lose all engine braking and basically 'freewheel' the machine if it is overrunning down a grade.

    Even if they don't lift the block, they can wear oddly on the piston slippers and swash plate and lose sealing efficiency, especially if running with an open center valve and under very light load conditions, (no system pressure holding the pistons and slipper tight together) and no lubrication to the slippers. They really don't like light load conditions, which this might have been if the control valve is open centered.



Does any of this describe what you were seeing?



Open loop gear pumps have a LOT of advantages in simple applications.



-I doubt the pump is feasible to rebuild. Parts will be really old, or probably aftermarket. Eaton/Vickers is way out of the market for those pumps in the industrial world. Newer pump designs are smaller, higher pressures and speeds, faster responses, and way more control options.

    The valve plate is not a loose part. The entire cast end of the pump is replaced. Rotating group and front bearing is replaced completely. The swash plate is who knows condition. That only leaves the housing and the shaft.

    However, it might be worth sinking more money into it just because of the shaft and mounting issues you'd have to deal with to replace it.



-Mount is likely an SAE A or B, no problem there.



-With the clutch or in & out box, the shaft is probably splined and oil lubricated. Standard SAE splines, likely no problem. However, logsplitter two stage pumps will almost all be keyed straight shafts designed to run directly from an engine via a jaw coupling with no oil bath.



-If you make an adaptor housing of some sort and have a jaw coupling to be able to use keyed shaft pump, you will have to seal the original mounting pad on the pump drive against oil leaking out, and need a stub shaft from spllne to the jaw coupling, and have to control axial movement of that stub shaft, and probably other issues I am missing.



-You could gut the piston pump, put a rear housing on it that has a through drive pad with keyed coupler, and put a log splitter pump on the back. Vickers had rear pad options but somewhat rare in these smaller sized pumps, and I doubt many spare parts are still around in the system without paying hundreds of dollars. 



-You could use a two section pump with external unloading and check valves, but I don't think you want to go there.



-Or, you could use a single section, spline shaft pump. Surplus Center will have some selection of these. If you are used to the speed of the old pump single section pump should be fine. That is essentially what you have now. The pump will be at max displacement until it compensates back on pressure. It is not a varying output flow in this application.



-Another alternate, buy a harbor freight engine and pump and sell the other parts. This is probably cheaper than adapting a keyed pump to the existing drive, but more expensive than a single section splined pump to the existing pump drive.

-Either way, you need to verify an open center spool valve, and verify there is a relief valve in the system.



-Overall it is a 'wool sweater project'. Don't pull the loose string hanging out of a hole in a wool sweater. We've all been there with cars, motorcycles, etc. etc. By the time you replace pump, engine, valve, and cylinder, there is not much original left.



-I would get a single section gear with spline drive, put it back in the clutch box, change the suction plumbing, add a return spin on filter, make sure you have an open center spool valve with a relief valve in it, and run it at a very low pressure. With a 6 inch bore you don't need much pressure. The air cylinder may survive, but I am not recommending or condoning it.  Get your work done, sell it, and buy a more modern unit with faster two stage pump.


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## nezwick (Mar 8, 2018)

Wow, where do I begin!




kevin j said:


> -Was this a very old machine, running for the previous owner years and years, or something just built recently of old parts? i.e. is it a design issue, or a breakdown issue?
> 
> -Did the PO run the engine at partial speed and have satisfactory service?



First, we all know how Craigslist deals go.  The guy seemed honest, and this is what he told me, but who knows in all reality.  He said it is a very old machine (he actually said 1950s although it's probably 1970s) and that the old man he got it from was the original builder.  The guy was getting too old to split his own wood, and traded this machine to my seller for 8 cords of split firewood.  I think 8 might be a little inflated, because the going rate for 8 cords of wood round here would be $2000-2500, but maybe.

I believe the pump was originally connected to this engine in whatever industrial machine they came from.  They both have the same base color of industrial yellow paint, and then were painted over with a thick green paint.  The green paint job is very old (20-30 years by my estimation).

I'd say it was a combination of both - failure due to design and age/wear - and also possibly misuse due to lack of user education!




> -The reason all this clicks is that the Vickers PV series piston pumps were rated for 1800 rpm max in the industrial version. In the 80's they came out with an M prefix (say MPVxx) for mobile equipment. Still it was only rated up to about 2200 or 2500 rpm, depending on pump size. (Smaller = faster allowable). M was also heavier cast housing for pressure spiking, but that is not likely relevant here. If you are running the engine at higher than the maximum pump speed, it will cavitate, aerate, and possibly lift the block and suddenly drop to very small flow, and eventually mechanically destroy itself.



Well this lower RPM rating would actually be ideal for this engine.  While Wisconsin technically claims the TJD can be run at 3600 RPM, that's a lot for an old twin and I'd never try it.  1800 would be my target RPM, though they only claim 11.7 HP @ 1800.  Unfortunately the governor is NOT set to limit the speed to 1800, as it's very easy to accidentally over-rev it when trying to adjust the throttle.  As careful as I was (mainly to protect the engine, not even considering the pump), I probably exceeded 1800.  And I guarantee the previous owner did it too, because he revved it up a few times during the demonstration.  We both likely contributed to the failure of the pump, since there weren't any protections in place.




> They really don't like light load conditions, which this might have been if the control valve is open centered.



Yeah, and I did a lot of "idling" while walking back and forth between the wood pile and splitter, and while making cuts with the chainsaw to trim some length off the pieces.  Also I had some pieces that cracked right away so the machine hardly had to work at all.  Would have never guessed that to be a bad thing.




> Does any of this describe what you were seeing?



Yep, sounds about right.  Though I never heard any bad noises until the moment of failure.






> -Another alternate, buy a harbor freight engine and pump and sell the other parts. This is probably cheaper than adapting a keyed pump to the existing drive, but more expensive than a single section splined pump to the existing pump drive.
> 
> Get your work done, sell it, and buy a more modern unit with faster two stage pump.



Nooooo I'll fight to keep this machine as much as I can.  If it means modernizing the pump and plumbing, that's fine, but the old industrial engine and overall look of the splitter are basically the only reasons I got it (plus nobody will try to steal it since it looks like "junk").


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## nezwick (Mar 13, 2018)

Alright, bit of an update for you guys.  Heard back from the hydraulics shop.  The pump is completely trashed and needed 6-7 different parts replaced.  They can't even identify it so they can't even try to get parts.

So now it comes down to buying a replacement pump.

The tech is going to spec me out a new pump, and needed an answer to the open/closed center question, so he had me test using compressed air.  With the control valve in "neutral", air goes straight through into the fluid reservoir.  So it's an open center valve.

Now that we know that, I guess we can start discussing pump options.  Unfortunately I don't have the old one in front of me yet to be able to tell you whether it's a splined or keyed shaft.  Currently, it has a steel coupler mounted to the pump's shaft, which I did not try to remove before taking it to the shop.  The clutch itself is in an oil bath, but an output shaft comes out of the clutch through a bearing and the actual connection to the pump is dry.  Hope that makes sense.

Here are a couple of pictures of what I have to work with.  It looks like the flange bolts are 5 and 3/4 inches on center.  The output shaft from the clutch is recessed back in there pretty far, but the coupling (still attached to old pump) takes care of that distance.  It also appears the aluminum flange is removable, if necessary, via the 4 Allen head bolts.











Ideally, I'd want a pump that operates acceptably at 1800 RPM, but could also handle faster speeds if I need the extra horsepower to bust through something knotty.


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## nezwick (Mar 13, 2018)

mooselake said:


> My late dad was a hydraulics design engineer at Vickers until the early 70s and might have designed that pump.
> 
> Hope the repairs work out.  This has been an engrossing saga




Hey that's pretty cool.  Too bad it's not savable!


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 13, 2018)

The new pumps I have seen have an external shaft. That two bolt pattern on the flange is integral with the pump and should be no different than the "independent " mounting brackets that bolt between the engine and pump. The nice thing is the bracket gives bgreater access to your couplers. The pattern should match some new units on the market. Northern tool and hydraulics discounters/surpluses center?

The whole coupling may need replacing a MIGHT be better purchased separately if the SHAFT diameters between trans/pump are different sizes. You will also need a spider(typical) bushing to place between the couplers- order 2 or 3 to have on hand. I do not think this will be a major project.


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## nezwick (Mar 13, 2018)

So... going blindly into this, I did a little work trying to spec out a pump for myself, but I'm still a bit confused.  Can't seem to find a 2-stage "log splitter" pump that has SAE B and keyed shaft.

One example I found of a single stage gear pump which sounds like it should work, is a Prince SP25A.

So I found these calculators here: http://www.womackmachine.com/engine...and-calculations/hydraulic-pump-calculations/

If I'm shooting for 28 GPM @ 2000 RPM, I need a pump with 3.23 cubic inch displacement (52.93 cc).

1. The SP25A has a displacement option for 52 cc, so that works.
2. Port locations, I'd just have to choose based on how the old pump is.
3. Mounting, SAE B
4. Drive Shaft, 7/8" straight keyed
5. Rotation, Clockwise

Actual model number, SP25A52A9H2-R.  That was easy, I thought.  Affordable AND made in USA too!



HOWEVER,

The very first calculator on that Womack page is for determining how much HP the engine needs to be to drive a 28 GPM pump to 3000 PSI...  it says *58.8 horsepower*!  I only have 18, and actually a bit less at 2000 RPM.  So my 18 HP engine could only build 920 PSI with 28 GPM pump.

I understand this is all theoretical and depends on some other factors - but am I close?  How do I approach the horsepower question? 

This would work fine with my "Air" cylinder at 280 PSI working pressure, but if I ever upgrade to a real hydraulic cylinder and want to work all the way at 3000 PSI, I don't want to have to change anything else.


----------



## nezwick (Mar 13, 2018)

Also, thinking into the future, I may one day want to have a hydraulic log lift added, so a single stage gear pump is also appropriate for that, right?


----------



## Ashful (Mar 13, 2018)

Changing engine RPM primarily changes pump GPM, and thus ram speed.  Splitting force is dependent on engine torque at any given RPM.  

As to HP requirements, are these single stage pumps?  The requirement you post is roughly double what I see for a two stage pump.


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 13, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Also, thinking into the future, I may one day want to have a hydraulic log lift added, so a single stage gear pump is also appropriate for that, right?


I use the same two stage on mine for the lift.


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## nezwick (Mar 13, 2018)

Yeah I was looking at single stage pumps.  I didn't come across any two stage pumps with SAE B mounting and 7/8" keyed shaft (just speculating I have keyed shaft instead of splined).

If we're talking about engine torque, the TJD is a torque monster.  I'm seeing a spec of 41.3 ft. lbs. at 2000 RPM.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 13, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Can't seem to find a 2-stage "log splitter" pump that has SAE B and keyed shaft.


Just throwin out ideas here...have a machine/fab shop make an adapter for you.
Might even be able to use the shaft and housing of the old pump as pieces parts to make said adapter...a lil machining and or welding could go a long way to making a common pump bolt up.

I did this when I build my V8 Bronco II. Too cheap to buy the special transfer case adapter housing and output shaft...I cut the shaft off the old trans...and the new...machined a short piece of round stock to fit each shaft (press fit) heated the adapter up red hot, quickly dropped it onto both shafts ("heat shrunk" it on) made sure it was dead on straight, welded 'er up. That was 20 years ago, still going strong today.
For the transfer case adapter housing, I cut the new and the old housing in half, welded a ring (think large 1/4" thick washer...more or less) between the two halves...wah lah...poor mans trans adapter housing! Full disclosure...it worked good...but did have 1 pin hole leak to fix...welding used aluminum parts well enough to be oil tight is tough!


----------



## VirginiaIron (Mar 13, 2018)

Also, I don't run my engine/pump too far above a fast idle.


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## Jags (Mar 14, 2018)

Warning: Blunt, opinionated post follows....

What I am currently reading is the over complication of what should be a simple hydraulic circuit and I don’t see a real world advantage to it.  Re-using the clutch portion is interjecting a variable that is not needed and isn’t gonna bring much to the real world of splitting wood.

I see the best option for long term, albeit a bit pricey, is to take advantage of the 18hp you currently have and match that to a 28GPM 2 stage splitter pump through the typical lovejoy connectors.  And I know this has been touched on (but all too lightly in my opinion) but the cylinder being used needs to go.  Its dangerous.  Simply not designed to take typical splitter hydraulic pressures.  Get a 5” bore and combine that with the 18hp and 28 GPM pump and you will have a monster.

Just one dudes opinion.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

I guess it would make a lot of sense to adapt to a common pump standard in order to keep this thing viable and "future proof", instead of being stubborn and trying to find an obscure part/solution like usual.

I bet the neighbor down the road could build me an adapter pretty quickly, and I wouldn't see it costing too much.  My brother could do it too, but he's generally too busy with his other job.


Another possibility is that the 4 bolts which hold the present SAE B flange onto the clutch are a standard "small engine" pattern.  If that's the case, a kit like the one pictured below would bolt right on, with only a small shaft extension needed to bring the Lovejoy couplers together in the middle.  I will have to measure the bolt spacing.  Using Lovejoy would also solve the issue of mis-matched shafts.









At the very least, I'm hoping to hear back from the hydraulic shop today with their pump recommendation so we can discuss.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

I hear ya, Jags. I'm already on the lookout for the correct cylinder!

I want to keep the clutch.  The engine is already a sluggish and cold blooded lump to start in the winter, and having the ability to disconnect the load during engine startup/warmup really made a difference the few times I actually got to use the thing.


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## Jags (Mar 14, 2018)

I get it.  Sometimes I do things just to see if I can do them.  When it comes to hydraulic splitters and the brute force that comes with the territory I prefer the simplistic, over engineered, KISS approach. Make it as simple as possible and as reliable as gravity.  And gravity is pretty reliable.


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## Ashful (Mar 14, 2018)

Jags said:


> Warning: Blunt, opinionated post follows....
> 
> What I am currently reading is the over complication of what should be a simple hydraulic circuit and I don’t see a real world advantage to it.  Re-using the clutch portion is interjecting a variable that is not needed and isn’t gonna bring much to the real world of splitting wood.
> 
> ...



Agreed, but there is one reason I withheld my thoughts on ditching that clutch.  I don’t see electric start on there, and pull-starting a 28 GPM pump in cold weather is going to take Herculean strength.  If the engine has a starter, which you can plug into the tractor for 12V supply, then definitely ditch that clutch.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

It has electric start.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

I really want to keep the clutch, but I suppose I shouldn't completely rule out eliminating it.  I'll have to find out what's behind it, and what the mounting pattern is on the engine block.  

It's always nice to eliminate one more point of potential failure, and to simplify the machine, but the clutch is a pretty cool feature that most splitters don't seem to have.


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 14, 2018)

nezwick said:


> I guess it would make a lot of sense to adapt to a common pump standard in order to keep this thing viable and "future proof", instead of being stubborn and trying to find an obscure part/solution like usual.
> 
> I bet the neighbor down the road could build me an adapter pretty quickly, and I wouldn't see it costing too much.  My brother could do it too, but he's generally too busy with his other job.
> 
> ...



Personally, I like the flange that is square or rectangular. I think it gives greater access to the couplings when needed. Depending on your engine configuratio. Those flags should be easily modified for other bolt patterns.


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## Ashful (Mar 14, 2018)

There’s a good reason most splitters don’t have a clutch.  They’re totally unnecessary.  For what possible reason would you want to keep it?

Cold weather starting (by pull rope) is the only reason I could see for wanting it, but you’ve negated that with electric start.

Heck, even my hydrostatic tractor and zero-turn mower have direct drive hydro pumps, no clutch.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

Perhaps that was a symptom of this particular pump going bad.  I promise it started better from a cold start with the pump disengaged.  With the pump engaged, it tended to stall out a few times and need more manual manipulation of the choke before it would run smoothly.  With the pump disengaged, a couple strokes with the choke on, and it would fire right up and stay running.  We're talking outside temps 20-30 degrees F.  

Same experience with my tractor.  It starts/warms up way easier in the winter with the PTO disengaged first even if nothing's connected to it.  If I forget to disengage the PTO, holding down the clutch helps too.  *Especially* when it's around 0 degrees F (plowing snow).  The hydraulics bog it down when cold.

Though now that I think about it, our hydrostatic garden tractor doesn't seem to have an issue.  Then again it's 50+ years newer and has electronic fuel injection.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

Update - just heard back from hydraulics shop.  They have a Vickers PVB15 in stock they will sell me for $450 that will be a direct replacement for the one that died.  It would require zero modifications, adapters, etc.

It's still technically not a log splitter pump, as we have already learned - and they don't offer anything 2-stage with the SAE B flange.

Here are the specs.  If I interpret this correctly, it does 20 GPM and 2000 PSI.  Seems a little under sized compared to what we're trying to achieve with 28/3000.  These specifications are at *1800 RPM*.








Thoughts??


I'm starting to lean toward going with a proper log splitter gear pump and deal with all the adapters and possible fabrication work.  I'd rather have everything bolt up and look "original", but at the same time I don't want to risk trashing a brand new pump by over-revving the engine or causing cavitation by getting the suction line redesign wrong.

However, if the PVB15 would give the power and reliability I'm looking for (again not super concerned with speed), I'm open to just buying it and sticking it back together - then moving on to other design modifications, of course.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

Alright... I asked my wife's opinion on the matter (who has up until this point remained a neutral observer) and she says definitely go with a 2 stage log splitter pump as opposed to buying the Vickers.

[that also means I probably have permission to spend the money on the parts, hah]

So it has been decided, the quest for the perfect pump and set of adapters can begin!

If I have to lose the clutch, so be it.  I hope to remove it tomorrow in order to see what sort of mounting options I have on that side of things.


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## blades (Mar 14, 2018)

A disconnect ( motor from pump) would be a nice option in cold weather as far as starting the engine- course if electric start doesn't matter.


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## Ashful (Mar 14, 2018)

Yeah, I'd go 2 stage gear pump, for a few reasons.

1.  They're engineered with log splitters in mind.  They work very well in this application, and they're very cheap by comparison to the Vickers solution.
2.  Lower HP requirement per max GPM, namely because it steps down to a lower GPM any time it builds > 600 psi.  That means, with a 5" cylinder, it will run very fast until it sees 12,000 lb. of resistance.  Then it will shift to low gear, plow thru the resistance, and immediately switch back to high gear for fast cycling.
3.  It will be an overall faster system (28 GPM vs. 20 GPM).
4.  It will have more power (3000 PSI vs. 2000 PSI).
5.  It will be simpler, with less overall parts to fail.
6.  These are pre-engineered.  They tell you exactly what line and port sizes you need, or a given pump size.


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 14, 2018)

Maybe the hydraulic system was extra slushy at those lower temps. I think the mod is beneficial.


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## nezwick (Mar 14, 2018)

So here is a picture after I removed the "B" flange.  







I wonder if something like this would bolt to that (or could be re-drilled to match those holes):


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 14, 2018)

If the diameter is right and the flange fits over the bronze bushing/cast lip that would be a start in keeping it aligned. But it appears you still need about another 1.25"- plus,  to reach the inner shaft (this could be accomplished with an additional coupling welded back to back, using a similar shaft to keep them true. Also that coupling ID looks too large for that smaller internal shaft.

1. I thought your old pump was 2 holes? If so, why do we now have 4 holes?
2. You might be better off with a double plate of some sort (spacer) to keep the pump up close to the clutch.
3. I do not know how you can access the set screw for the coupling on the inner shaft.
4. What does the old coupling look like?


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## kevin j (Mar 15, 2018)

I really don’t think you’ll be very happy running the PVB 15 Open centered. 
 and it will be slow. 

 I would look at a two  section gear pump with spline shaft front and add the external check valve and unloading valve. that way you get your high flow and yet everything mounts up without machining adapters


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## nezwick (Mar 15, 2018)

1.  The pump *is* 2 bolt - I removed the 2 bolt flange and what you see above is the clutch housing itself (check out the pictures on page 7 for comparison).

2.  I'm thinking I can just make a plate/spacer like you said that will have the bolt pattern for an A pump and the 4 bolt holes to mate to the clutch housing.  I could easily make this out of wood and then have a shop make it out of metal for me.

3&4.  There was no set screw for the coupler on the inner shaft.  It was just slip fit and used the keyway.  Basically it looked just like this, but silver in color.  It may have had a set screw on the pump shaft, but I can't remember.  I'll be picking it up from the shop shortly so I can show you.


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## nezwick (Mar 15, 2018)

Kevin, any brands/models you might suggest based on your recommendation above?  The selection out there is overwhelming.  Same price point as the PVB 15  or cheaper would be ideal!


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 15, 2018)

Will a 4 bolt pump like this work?

https://www.log-splitters-reviews.com/log-splitter-pump/


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## nezwick (Mar 15, 2018)

I'd still have to build a spacer adapter.  My 4 bolts are 2 and 3/16" on center and it looks like the log splitter pumps are 2" on center.


This morning I did go ahead and make a prototype adapter out of plywood scraps (cheap plywood so had a lot of tearout but you get the idea).  I don't have an A pump in front of me to copy that flange so I had to go based off specs from the internet.  

What do you think?  I think it will work just fine.  There were a few clearance issues since the new flange has to be smaller than the original one - but I think I worked everything out.  Obviously I'll have it made out of steel (or maybe aluminum?).


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## kevin j (Mar 15, 2018)

Whose clutch?  Since it has a bolt on B2 adaptor now, if they are still in business, they may offer a clutch 4 bolt to A2 adaptor instead.

Sauer/Sundstrand/Danfoss offered separate B2 to A2 adaptors, but they took a longer spline coupler to make up the space.

Eaton/Vickers might have, but usually the back plate of the pump was changed completely.

If you make the adaptor, measure the shaft lengths and sort that out. I expect your PVB15 would have been a spline shaft and splined clutch, with coupler tube in between. Usually there is a snap ring in the middle inside to control the end float of the coupler. With keyed shaft, you will need a set screw, the key shaft doesn’t take well to vibration loading and will fret out the key and keyway.
Is this cavity dry? Splines with lube run forever. Usually it is pump case oil. If not oiled, pack it with synthetic grease. Will be 1/10 the life of an oil bath, but for a splitter it should be fine.


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## greg13 (Mar 16, 2018)

It may be a Rockford clutch, they were very popular back then. You have already done most of the work to fab up an adaptor, I would continue on that route rather than try to find parts to switch the housing over. You may find that OE parts from that era could be about impossible to find.


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## nezwick (Mar 17, 2018)

Rockford was who came to mind for me too, since I know the bigger V4 Wisconsins often used Rockford power take offs.  I'm still trying to research - again with the case of the missing ID tag.  There are some numbers cast into the one side, but a Google search of those brought back nothing.

I like the idea of fabricating my own adapter (well, technically paying someone to fabricate it, but anyway).  Looking at the prototype I made, I see no reliable way to seal the pilot with an o-ring, due to the intrusion of the 4 bolt holes, so having the shaft live in an oil bath might not be possible.  If synthetic grease is the next best alternative, I can go with that.


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 17, 2018)

Assuming the first engine flange is sealed, I would think you can make that tub by sealing your new rear flange. Install a fill hole above centerline and a drain hole in the bottom of the case. Just make sure it has a breather in the fill plug so the tub is not under pressure. Edit- seal it with flat gasket material or silicone.


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## nezwick (Mar 20, 2018)

I picked up the pump from the shop yesterday - and it sure is wrecked!  I'll get you some pictures today before I head off to work.  The one guy said it was the worst he had ever seen, and they both were in disbelief that it was ever able to build pressure for me.  It has been slowly eating itself for many years and I just put it out of its misery.  I feel better that I didn't damage a perfectly good part due to mis-use.  Simply gambled on a used piece of machinery and lost.


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## nezwick (Mar 20, 2018)

Pics of the carnage, as promised:


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 21, 2018)

Can you modify the old pump flange to work as an adapter to the new pump?


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## kevin j (Mar 21, 2018)

I don't think it is anything you did, nor did the seller probably know it was failing.


This is a pretty typical piston pump failure for the situation. It shows the effects of the low inlet pressure, high case pressure, and open center application. All of these allow the pistons to go 'unloaded', the slippers lift off the swash plate, then slap back down.

-Cavitation erosion, the sandy corroded looking marks on the surface of the valve plate (end cover of pump). This is from restricted inlet.

-Slipper edges worn really thin. When they lift up, the holddown plate has to keep them down, so they chatter up and down between the small clearances.

-Crimp of the slippers to the round ball end of the pistons is hammered and worn out from pulling when they should only push.

-Swash plate shows the areas where slippers lifted up then slapped down as they go around their cycle. These won't be in one exact location, as the wear plate is free and intended to rotate and float around in the swash plate to distribute the wear.

-Running open center typically also shows loss of lubrication through the small hole in the center of piston and slipper. The bottom of the slippers (not shown) will be rounded off on the edges and the brass smeared.



It appears the shaft was keyed. Will the existing spline coupler work on a new two stage keyed pump, maybe with a spacer to reduce the ID?



This is not even close to a 'worse case failure' scenario.   .  The slippers are all accounted for, in place, and in one piece. Holddown plate is in one piece. Pistons have the ball ends still there and not broken or worn off to a nubbin. Swash wear plate isn't worn through into the actual casting of the swash plate. And pump case is still in one piece. It is amazing how much damage can be done when the diesel engine has enough torque….



You will be far more pleased with a gear pump than replacing this one.


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## nezwick (Mar 22, 2018)

VirginiaIron said:


> Can you modify the old pump flange to work as an adapter to the new pump?



That might work.  What you have proposed isn't actually the old pump flange though, it's the "back cover" (not sure the technical term) with the plumbing ports.  The flange itself is cast into the main body of the pump and would not be useful if cut off.  I've personally never tried to drill or cut cast iron before, but I'm sure it's not impossible.  I'll have to pick up a couple diamond edge cutoff wheels and a hole saw or something to bore out the inside pilot and see what I can do.  Worth looking into.


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## nezwick (Mar 22, 2018)

kevin j said:


> I don't think it is anything you did, nor did the seller probably know it was failing.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Good to hear all of that information.  

The shaft on the old pump is 7/8 keyed, which is the same as the shaft coming out of the PTO clutch.  I think I can easily use a reducer bushing/spacer thing to adapt it to the 5/8 keyed shaft of whatever new pump I get.  I still have no way to secure the coupler to the shaft inside the clutch, but it wasn't secured before, so whatever.

I should be ordering a pump today.  I've narrowed down a few options, and they all seem the same (imported) so I'm basically going to go with the cheapest.  It's around $210 and the company is Tool Tuff Direct (not sketchy at all)...  Only problem is, most of the pumps have 1" inlet and 3/4" outlet. I need to determine what size plumbing I have before I finalize my order.  Pumps with 1 and 1/4" inlet and 1" outlet aren't as plentiful and twice the price.


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## VirginiaIron (Mar 22, 2018)

nezwick said:


> That might work.  What you have proposed isn't actually the old pump flange though, it's the "back cover" (not sure the technical term) with the plumbing ports.  The flange itself is cast into the main body of the pump and would not be useful if cut off.  I've personally never tried to drill or cut cast iron before, but I'm sure it's not impossible.  I'll have to pick up a couple diamond edge cutoff wheels and a hole saw or something to bore out the inside pilot and see what I can do.  Worth looking into.


I thought the stock holes were mounting holes, nevermind. A piece of steel would work much easier.


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## nezwick (Mar 22, 2018)

Well against my usual actions I ordered (_cringe_) a cheap foreign pump.  From what I can tell, it's the exact same brand that Rugged Made uses, so it might be ok.  I've seen decent reviews about Rugged Made splitters, and at $3000+ for their biggest splitters, they better be good.

It looks like the part number is CBDN-22/7.  I do have the 1" inlet and 3/4" outlet, so this should work fine with my plumbing (will be re-routed and filtered, of course).

https://www.tooltuffdirect.com/collections/log-splitter-pumps/products/lspm028

I hope I made the right choice.  There are way too many options in the world of hydraulic pumps.


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## Ashful (Mar 22, 2018)

nezwick said:


> Well against my usual actions I ordered (_cringe_) a cheap foreign pump.  From what I can tell, it's the exact same brand that Rugged Made uses, so it might be ok.  I've seen decent reviews about Rugged Made splitters, and at $3000+ for their biggest splitters, they better be good.
> 
> It looks like the part number is CBDN-22/7.  I do have the 1" inlet and 3/4" outlet, so this should work fine with my plumbing (will be re-routed and filtered, of course).
> 
> ...



Given the cost of these pumps, if it lasts even a third as long as a Vickers, you’re still ahead of the game.  Also, now you’re 2-staging it, better speed, better power.


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## Jags (Mar 22, 2018)

Whooo Hooo!  A 28 GPM 2 stage is gonna make that thing a little beastie.  I really, really hope you are serious about replacing the air cylinder to a proper hydro unit.


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## nezwick (Mar 22, 2018)

I will, once I find something, hopefully locally and in good used condition or rebuilt.  I'm seeing prices that rival what I paid for the entire machine, so that's going to factor in for sure.  Safety aside, I want the 30" stroke so I can leave my pieces cut longer.

Just out of curiosity, what happens when cylinders fail due to too much pressure?  I'm having a hard time finding videos on YouTube.


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## Ashful (Mar 22, 2018)

nezwick said:


> I will, once I find something, hopefully locally and in good used condition or rebuilt.  I'm seeing prices that rival what I paid for the entire machine, so that's going to factor in for sure.  Safety aside, I want the 30" stroke so I can leave my pieces cut longer.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what happens when cylinders fail due to too much pressure?  I'm having a hard time finding videos on YouTube.



That’s dependent on how much energy is stored, which is dependent on the failure pressure and the compressibility of the medium.  If there’s air in the system, it can be quite catastrophic, shrapnel and all.  

When 1/2” - 3/4” hydraulic lines fail, assuming there’s no air trapped in the system, it’s usually fairly uneventful.  Your primary concern there is skin penetration from fluid escaping at high velocity.  However, given the volume of a cylinder at full extension, there is potential for some serious stored energy.  Boom.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 22, 2018)

Ashful said:


> When 1/2” - 3/4” hydraulic lines fail, assuming there’s no air trapped in the system, it’s usually fairly uneventful


More often than not its uneventful...mainly because nobody is in the path of the fluid...but I have personally witnessed quite a few lines blow in a way that you wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere near the path of the oil (this is on ag and heavy equipment) and then there was a time or two where someone did get an oil bath...but fortunately that's all it was, no injurys. 
Kind of a side story...in high school shop class we had a kid end up in the ER from being sprayed with a pressure washer...it cut into his back (yeah it was horseplay) they told us he was lucky, that being cut with high pressure water can be very serious injury...even deadly. I'm not sure I have this completely right anymore, but I think it was something like the water can cut through into organs and blow things up like a hollow point bullet does. Fortunately this kid was hit in the shoulder blade area so the water stream didn't go very deep, bone stopped it.

Anyways, I would not want to be around a 250 PSI rated cylinder with 1000# and more on it...might get lucky and the tie rods break, but might rip the tube wide open too...never know.
(my first guess is that the seals would probably blow out of it, but who knows?!)

I think I'd run a wore out hydraulic cylinder from a farm auction before using that air cylinder...
My 2 cents...


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## nezwick (Apr 9, 2018)

Well here's a small update for you guys since I haven't checked in recently.

1.  The new pump arrived from Tool Tuff Direct.

2.  My little wooden adapter prototype was 100% spot on correct!

3.  We have a family friend back in PA who works at a machine shop, so two weekends ago I gathered everything and took it to the guy.  He said to give them about 3 weeks and they'll blueprint it and make it out of steel.  I said steel is no problem.


So that's where we stand right now.  I keep saying I need to give the neighbor a call to see when we can do the modifications to the hydraulic tank, but so far that hasn't happened.  




In the mean time..................

Enter insane Craigslist homemade Wisconsin-powered log splitter #2!

















It's probably one of the craziest machines I've ever seen. I couldn't resist. It used to be a Littleford power broom that the highway department would use. Powered by a 4 cylinder VE4D (presumed original to the broom) and we think the hydraulics (controls/pump/reservoir are all one piece) came from a front end loader or similar.  It has a 5 horse Briggs rigged up to "pony" start the big V4 (also came with the original hand crank but the guy couldn't get the hang of hand cranking it).  The hydraulics and cylinder are both laughably under-sized (1/2" hoses, 3x18 cylinder) for the engine and the overall scale of the equipment.  It's much faster, but much less powerful than, the green one.  But despite all that, I was able to split that pile in about 5-6? hours.  I have to be mindful of grain and knots, instead of just mashing through whatever I wanted with the green one.

I got it so I could take my time with the green one and do it right, while still being able to get the big wood pile cleaned up and out of there for the spring.  In the end, I may deconstruct the orange one and have the axle and frame reconfigured into a hay-wagon style farm trailer (front axle pivot).  Could probably make 3x profit selling the VE4D on eBay.  It runs absolutely perfectly, only has a damaged throttle lock knob.  The engine serial number is from 1942!


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## salecker (Apr 10, 2018)

Cool machine again.
You may have to keep looking for theses.I can see your yard lined up with old re-purposed machines that now split wood.


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## Ashful (Apr 10, 2018)

Nezwick’s Island of Misfit Splitters?


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## VirginiaIron (Apr 10, 2018)

Is that one of those pony motor starters? Definitely need a video.


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## nezwick (Apr 11, 2018)

Well the reference to Island of Misfit Toys was over my head (and before my time) - had to look that one up haha.  But yes, nezwick's Island of Misfit Equipment! 

I know I'm steering my own thread off topic now, but how about this one - a homemade tow-behind leaf blower with a Kohler K301 (12HP).  This thing is amazing.  It rides on a large bearing and can be rotated 180 degrees to blow leaves in any direction.  It has an Atwater-Strong impeller which was made right here in Ohio.  Another Craigslist find, of course.  When I got it, it didn't run.  Needed the fuel system gone through, points/condenser, spark plug, and muffler. It may actually be a K321 (14HP), but I haven't taken the time to measure the bore/stroke to find out.











I will get you a video of the pony start and how the orange splitter works.


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## nezwick (May 20, 2018)

Well you guys I finally have an update!

Here is the adapter part that our machinist friend produced. I think it looks really nice. Of course I have to wait until my next trip out to PA to actually get the thing, but at least it’s done. The only thing he didn’t do was the tapped holes for the oil plugs. I will make do without and just use grease.

So I should at least have this monster up and running again for the fall firewood season.


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## nezwick (Aug 4, 2018)

And the update we've all been waiting for (hopefully)!

My parents came out for a week and so my dad and I tackled some overdue projects, this being one of them.  Here are some pictures of the progress we made re-working the hydraulic plumbing and getting the new pump installed.




Here is the new suction line welded into the tank at the bottom.  It used to come through the top.  The strainer is screwed onto the other end of this fitting.







Turned old suction line into a vent (1" to 1/2" reducer, a 1/2" nipple, and then a surplus spin-on oil filter re-threaded to 1/2" NPT).  The old fill/vent/return cluster mess was removed and replaced with a collar, 6" riser, and then an elbow.  This will connect to a filter head and then to the hydraulic hose you see laying on top of the tank.  That's the return hose that comes from the control valve.  I still have to order a filter head and filter.







Top view of same.







This picture shows the new pump with the brand new suction line running under the I-beam and to the elbow in Pic #1.  A couple of hydraulic fittings to get the spacing right, then a tee with new gauge (0-5000 psi), hydraulic elbow, and the tube that runs to the valve.  I was able to reuse a bunch of old parts here and just put a few new bends in the tube with a conduit bender.  It lines up really nicely.  That tee is Sch. 80 black iron so it should withstand the pressure (it lasted this long without problems).

I had to use a series of adapters to get the pump to interface with the PTO clutch.  The adapter I had made for me, is almost perfect but not quite. All the bolts lined up but the new pump flange did not cover all the bolt holes.  I had to seal everything up with RTV but it should keep the rain out.  For the shaft, I needed a 5/8" to 7/8" bushing (Fastenal), a 7/8" shaft coupler with set screws (Big Bearing Store), and a piece of 3/16" x 1/4" step key.  I had to shorten the shaft coupler by 1" but after that it all went together beautifully.







Another two views of the same.











And an overview of all the changes.  You might also notice that I removed the throttle controls and ammeter from the "control panel".  That was a whole other project that I'll discuss next.







So last month, I figured that since the pump and plumbing were going to get done soon, I should take some time to fine tune the engine and figure out why the throttle is so touchy to adjust and impossible to maintain a constant engine RPM.  The whole throttle setup was rigged with rusty springs and little bits of wire and was just crazy.  Figuring it was only like that because someone wanted the controls facing the operator instead of the rear, I took all that apart and re-set everything to factory spec.  That made it WAY worse, like the engine would just keep over-speeding no matter where I had the throttle or governor set.  I tried everything I could think of, followed the official Wisconsin manual instructions to a "T", but still no good.  Just out of frustration, I removed the governor cover to see if the fly weights were stuck or broken, or if the oil pressure line was clogged, but what I found surprised even me.  The governor was MISSING entirely!  No wonder it was impossible to set or adjust.  I bought a governor off eBay, installed it, reset all the linkages properly, and everything started working correctly.  Why anyone would just completely remove the governor without replacing it is beyond me.  Anyway, part of this project involved moving the governor control back to the factory location and building a crude choke control out of a thin metal rod.  The ammeter never worked to begin with so I just eliminated/bypassed it.  Someday I will get a new one, along with an oil pressure gauge.  There are factory Wisconsin brackets for these.

I still want to tidy up the engine wiring, because everything that was done is way too long and poorly terminated, but it works for now.  








All in all, excellent progress and all I need to do now is get the filter head and filter.  My dad has a filter head laying around so I'll grab it next time I'm there.  


What do you think!?


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## VirginiaIron (Aug 5, 2018)

I like. Good choose in moving the suction line. I guess your suction line appears too close to the ground. Maybe use some sort of beam clamp to support a strap.


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## salecker (Aug 5, 2018)

Nice work
A blend of new and vintage.Still an awesome looking splitter that i would be proud of sitting next to my wood shed.


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## nezwick (Aug 6, 2018)

Oh yeah, also forgot to mention we added a plug to the bottom of the tank to facilitate easier draining.  I can see having to change the fluid every year or two?  Depending on how quickly it gets re-contaminated.

VirginiaIron, It just so happens I recently bought a box of beam clamps at an auction and had no idea what do do with them.  Should be able to utilize one or two for this project.

The "air cylinder" issue is still in the back of my mind, but I have not found a deal on a "hydraulic cylinder" yet.  I'm curious to see how this plays out using the existing cylinder.  Will use it with a wary eye and safety in mind.


Just like everything around here, it will *eventually* get a coat of paint.  I'm torn between Vietnam-era OD green, Ferguson grey like our 2N will be, or Safety Yellow/Orange.  I did the mortar mixer in Safety Yellow and the brush hog in Safety Blue and they both look good.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2018)

Fluid change requirement is mostly dep on moisture contamination.  Keep hydro fluid dry, and it can go for years.


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## Jags (Aug 6, 2018)

Yeah - hydro juice doesn’t really “wear out”.  Contamination (metal, water, etc.) is the enemy of hydro juice.


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## nezwick (Aug 26, 2018)

Well my friends, this thing is again operational!  The final pieces of the puzzle have arrived and were installed a couple days ago.

Installed the filter head and filter, but ended up having a minor leak from one of the swivels of the old low pressure return hose that I was trying to re-use.  Went to the Parker store and had a new hose made up in the proper 3/4" size.  That little hose was super expensive.  I would like to find some nicer looking cable ties, but zip ties keep them together for now.













Did a little testing with some "safe/easy" wood rounds and couldn't even get any amount of pressure to register on the gauge.  Had to step up to some crotchy pieces to make it notice, and even still it was negligible (1000 psi?).  Cracked those like nothing, and actually ended up cracking one of the Grade 8 bolts holding the pusher plate down.  The pusher plate is the next thing needing to be re-engineered.  It works for now but is just not very heavy-duty.






Replaced all the bolts and then was able to do this...  Sheared right through a crotch, with almost no effort at all.  Looked like about 1500 psi on the gauge.  Engine barely flinched, and is only running slightly above idle (1500 RPM maybe?).











All in all, great success.  I hope to get a video posted in the next few days.  Still have lots of wood to split for this heating season.


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