# Lawn care



## Ashful (Jun 20, 2017)

*GOD to ST. FRANCIS:  *Frank,  ..  You know all about gardens and nature.  What in the world is going on down there on the planet?   What happened to the dandelions, violets, milkweeds and stuff I started eons ago?   I had a perfect no-maintenance garden plan.  Those plants grow in any type of soil, withstand drought and multiply with abandon. The nectar from the long-lasting blossoms attracts butterflies, honey bees and flocks of songbirds.  I expected to see a vast garden of colors by now.  But, all I see are these green rectangles.
*
St. FRANCIS: * It's the tribes that settled there, Lord.  The Suburbanites.  They started calling your flowers 'weeds' and went to great lengths to kill them and replace them with grass.
*
GOD:  *Grass?  But, it's so boring.  It's not colorful.  It doesn't attract butterflies, birds, and bees; only grubs and sod  worms.  It's sensitive to temperatures.  Do these Suburbanites really want all that grass growing there?
*
ST. FRANCIS:  *Apparently so, Lord.  They go to great pains to grow it and keep it green.  They begin each spring by fertilizing grass and poisoning any other plant that crops up in the lawn.
*
GOD: * The spring rains and warm weather probably make grass grow really fast.  That must make the Suburbanites happy.


*ST. FRANCIS:  *Apparently not, Lord.  As soon as it grows a little, they cut it - sometimes twice a week.
*
GOD: *They cut it?  Do they then bale it like hay?


*ST. FRANCIS: *Not exactly, Lord.  Most of them rake it up and put it in bags.
*
GOD: *They bag it?  Why?  Is it a cash crop?  Do they sell it?*

ST. FRANCIS: * No, Sir, just the opposite.  They pay to throw it away.
*
GOD: * Now, let me get this straight.  They fertilize grass so it will grow.  And, when it does grow, they cut it off and pay to throw it way? 


*ST. FRANCIS: * Yes, Sir.


*GOD:  *These Suburbanites must be relieved in the summer when we cut back on the rain and turn up the heat.  That surely slows the growth and saves them a lot of work.


*ST. FRANCIS:* You aren't going to believe this, Lord.  When the grass stops growing so fast, they drag out hoses and pay more money to water it, so they can continue to mow it and pay to get rid of it.
*
GOD:* What nonsense.  At least they kept some of the trees.  That was a sheer stroke of genius, if I do say so myself.  The trees grow leaves in the spring to provide beauty and shade in the summer.  In the autumn, they fall to the ground and form a natural blanket to keep moisture in the soil and protect the trees and bushes.  It's a natural cycle of life.


*ST. FRANCIS: * You'd better sit down, Lord.  The Suburbanites have drawn a new circle.  As soon as the leaves fall, they rake them into great piles and pay to have them hauled away, too.
*
GOD: *No!?  What do they do to protect the shrub and tree roots in the winter to keep the soil moist and loose?
*
ST. FRANCIS: *After throwing away the leaves, they go out and buy something which they call mulch.  They haul it home and spread it around in place of the leaves.
*
GOD: *And where do they get this mulch?
*
ST. FRANCIS:  *They cut down trees and grind them up to make the mulch*.*
*
GOD:* Enough!  I don't want to think about this anymore.  St. Catherine, you're in charge of the arts.  What movie have you scheduled for us tonight?


*ST. CATHERINE:* 'Dumb and Dumber', Lord.  It's a story about...*.* 

*GOD:* Never mind, I think I just heard the whole story from St. Francis.


----------



## MikeK (Jun 21, 2017)

I love it!  Our clan of the suburbanite tribe has many lawn care aspects deeply ingrained in our culture.   I asked my wife if my lawn rants annoy her just now, and she said "not this morning."


----------



## peakbagger (Jun 21, 2017)

Unfortunately up in northern NH leave a lawn without mowing and the trees move in. Trees are not very good over septic systems. I compromise and mow what is there but don't fertilize.


----------



## vinny11950 (Jun 21, 2017)

Very funny.  I stopped trying to care for the grass in the front yard 6 years ago.  I just let the moss grass take over.  Now I have a nice, thick carpet of green that stays short and keeps most weeds from growing.  I don't water it, fertilize it or anything.  Just let it be.  It turns yellow in the peak summer, but quickly comes back green in the fall when the rain begins again.


----------



## Wickets (Jun 21, 2017)

There is nothing more ironic and pleasurable than going to a 'farm' store and watching 'ladies that lunch' pay top dollar for dandelion leaves.


----------



## semipro (Jun 21, 2017)

There's something about "engineering" nature that we humans just can't seem to resist.

The engineer in me gave up long ago and now merely tries to keep nature in check so we can still find our front door when we get home.  Heaven help us if Kudzu ever makes it to our area. (another human folly BTW)  I think I'd just move.

I'm actually involved in an effort to guide departments of transportation on how they can best maintain their roadsides for safety while creating/maintaining habitat for pollinators, etc.


----------



## jatoxico (Jun 22, 2017)

Well when you put it that way...


----------



## jebatty (Jun 23, 2017)

Our solution to lawn "care" was for my wife to volunteer to mow the lawn. She actually does not like to mow, and year after year she decided to mow less and let nature take over. Now our mowed lawn is just a very small area around two sides of the house, we've seeded natural grasses and flower into was once the large mowed portion, native shrubs and trees also have volunteered into the no-mow area, and nature has taken over. 

As for the septic drain field area, we do not let trees and shrubs grow there, just grass, which gets mowed once or twice during the summer, leaving the grass to grow to about two feet before mowing with a brush mower. We want the grass to be about one foot tall before winter so that snow will accumulate over the drain field to reduce the chance of any freeze-up over the winter. Only once in 27 years did we come close to a freeze-up, and over this period winters in our area are now about 10-15 degrees warmer on average than the old "normal" winters used to be. I won't comment on all of the invasive plants and insects which we now have due to warmer winters and lack of freeze-out of stuff that would never have survived here in the past. Climate change rolls on while Rome burns.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jun 25, 2017)

I never could figure out folk's obsession with having a lawn that looks like a golf course (minus the divots). I mow my lawn . . . but that's about it (other than raking some areas that get too many leaves to simply mulch them with the mower).


----------



## Ashful (Jun 25, 2017)

firefighterjake said:


> I never could figure out folk's obsession with having a lawn that looks like a golf course (minus the divots). I mow my lawn . . . but that's about it (other than raking some areas that get too many leaves to simply mulch them with the mower).


Okay, I'll bite, even though I don't pay to have my clippings hauled away.  An uncontrolled or weedy lawn is no different than old and peeling paint, in terms of making your house look poorly maintained.  A well-maintained lawn increases curb appeal, and can make potential buyers think of how their kids (who currently sit indoors and play video games) might use it for playing outdoors.

Living in the woods would be my ultimate bliss, but every home purchase is a compromise.


----------



## jatoxico (Jun 25, 2017)

A healthy lawn looks good and doesn't necessarily require obsessive maintenance.

My interest in the lawn comes and goes a little but I try to keep it looking good at least from the road. Last few years it was getting weedy and looking shabby so I've been making an effort.

I don't feel good about using too many chemicals so the clippings stay on the lawn and I don't fertilize too often. Maybe once every two years is enough right now. Mechanical aeration helped immensely since I have some clay and compaction problems, over-seeded at the same time. pH of Long Island soil is typically low so I have started liming.

With that and some spot weeding its looking good.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 25, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> A healthy lawn looks good and doesn't necessarily require obsessive maintenance.
> 
> My interest in the lawn comes and goes a little but I try to keep it looking good at least from the road. Last few years it was getting weedy and looking shabby so I've been making an effort.
> 
> ...


You're on the right track.  I run the plug aerator over the whole lawn each September, and occasionally a second time in the spring.  We also have clay soil.

pH may be the single most important, and least observed, factor in a good lawn.  All the fertilizers and nutrients in the world are useless, if the pH is off, as the grass needs to be in that happy spot to even begin absorbing nutrients.  And, you don't need any fancy or questionable chemicals, to alter pH.

I collect a two soil samples and get a free soil test in late February each year.  From that, I get a fertilization plan that enables me to get just the right amount of product down, no more.  It's pretty easy, with good info.  I see folks doing a lot more work than me, for poorer results.


----------



## jatoxico (Jun 25, 2017)

I borrowed an aerator but I'm on the prowl for one of my own. Should be had for around $100. Even new they're $160-180. I could see using it 2X a year for the first few years I own it.

pH on LI can be in the 4's. My five samples ranged from about 5.1 to about 5.9. Put down enough to raise it maybe 0.3-0.5. Will most likely lime again in fall after I retest.

Been converting the lawn to tall fescue on the advice of our local Cornell Co-op. Doesn't need as much fert or water as other species. The blades are a little bit thin (may improve as pH comes in line) but still attractive.


----------



## jebatty (Jun 26, 2017)

Ashful said:


> An uncontrolled or weedy lawn is no different than old and peeling paint, in terms of making your house look poorly maintained. A well-maintained lawn increases curb appeal, and can make potential buyers think of how their kids (who currently sit indoors and play video games) might use it for playing outdoors.


 I agree with your POV, and the key words are "making your house look poorly maintained." A lawn is nearly all about "looks," just like wearing the right kind of shirt, skirt, or slacks, and importantly, all about showing that the owner is the "right kind or person"  that matches a certain kind of culture or economic status. All of that is OK if that is what a person truly wants. 

My wife and I live in a rural area on a lake. We, like many people, sought to own our home because we were impressed with the natural surroundings: forest, field, and water. Our first effort then, like many people, was to cut down trees, mow the field, and "open up nature." That is, make a lawn. In so doing the nature we loved was pushed further and further back from where we lived. Some of our neighbors now have huge expanses of lawn. Gone are trees and the native shrubs, grasses and flowers, as well as the butterflies, birds, frogs, and all the critters that once had a home in the nature that became a lawn. The lawn we created was a near dessert, devoid of the life it once sustained. 

So, after a few years and the realization that we destroyed what in fact we loved, we stopped mowing. At first slowly, and then rapidly, tree seedlings and shrubs began to reappear. We scattered seed for native grasses and flowers, and then those too began to appear. Now, each morning, and often all night, a cacophony of bird songs fill the air, butterflies, bees and hummingbirds visit the flowers, deer and grouse wander through our now returned to nature "yard," and our homesite too has returned nearly to the way it was when we first fell in love with the place. 

We readily admit that we no longer fit the culture of most of our neighbors, although some now also are shrinking their mowed lawns, seeding native grasses and flowers, and planting trees. And maybe those that are doing these things have discovered, like us, that these things not only restore the beauty of what nature creates, but also that beauty is accompanied by lots of freed up time and expense that used to be spent in maintaining a lawn -- which actually now can include time to play with children and grandchildren, as well as teach them about the birds and bees.


----------



## jatoxico (Jun 26, 2017)

While I agree with the sentiment regarding excessive acres of lawn it's worth remembering that lawns developed for a reason. If nature is allowed to grow right up to your doorstep then a lot of that nature will be in your house. That means more insects, birds, critters, dirt, dampness and damage. IMO you need a relatively dry buffer around the home and a lawn does that w/o allowing the area to alternately turn into a mud pit or dust bowl.

I've seen other solutions but nice swaths of grass punctuated by plantings and trees looks good. PS my neighborhood was practically deforested by a storm 2 yrs ago (I lost 18 in my yard alone) and it totally changed the character of the area and not for the better.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 26, 2017)

jebatty said:


> I agree with your POV, and the key words are "making your house look poorly maintained." A lawn is nearly all about "looks," just like wearing the right kind of shirt, skirt, or slacks, and importantly, all about showing that the owner is the "right kind or person"  that matches a certain kind of culture or economic status. All of that is OK if that is what a person truly wants.
> 
> My wife and I live in a rural area on a lake. We, like many people, sought to own our home because we were impressed with the natural surroundings: forest, field, and water. Our first effort then, like many people, was to cut down trees, mow the field, and "open up nature." That is, make a lawn. In so doing the nature we loved was pushed further and further back from where we lived. Some of our neighbors now have huge expanses of lawn. Gone are trees and the native shrubs, grasses and flowers, as well as the butterflies, birds, frogs, and all the critters that once had a home in the nature that became a lawn. The lawn we created was a near dessert, devoid of the life it once sustained.
> 
> ...


Awesome post, jebatty.  In fact, I've been going through the same progression as you, trying to convert some of my lawn back to nature.  When I moved into this house, we were in the middle of about 5 acres of lawn, with another 6 acres of woods behind us, and nice hedgerows down both sides.  We owned only 4 acres of all that, all lawn, and since then someone purchased the rest and cut down most of that beautiful wooded backdrop we used to enjoy.

I've been planting trees along that rear property line, as many as 40 one year, and that work continues.  However, I've not yet taken the leap from trees planted in a manicured lawn, to complete unruly natural hedgerow.  I want to get there, but have not yet figured the best way from here to there.

At the moment, I have several rows of conifers (Norway Spruce, Leyland Cypress, and Eastern Hemlock) planted, and will be adding more this fall (likely some White Spruce will go in the mix), and I've also been planting Maple, Birch, and Elm in there, to give the hedgerow some cover up high.  This fall I might finally remove the grass over a swath of 200 feet x 50 feet, mulch it, and then next summer plant shrubs.  The goal is to get it to a point where it's a self-mulching (leaves, needles) natural hedgerow, separating us from the house that was built on the lot behind us, while also reducing my mowing burden by another one-quarter or one-third acre.


----------



## kennyp2339 (Jul 13, 2017)

I'm a lawn freak, in terms of all my addictions it goes something like this: lawn, firewood, plowing snow, gardening.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 13, 2017)

Yeah, I've been accused of the same.

Late Feb:  collect soil samples
Mar.1:  develop fertilizer and pH correction plan
Early Mar.:  pre-emergent herbicide (granular) with fertilizer, and pH correction (if necessary)
May:  post-emergent herbicide (spray), another round of fertilizer (dep. on soil sample result)
June:  Grub and tick control (eg. Allectus), another round of fertilizer
Early July:  Sedge control (eg. Dismiss)
Late Aug.:  prep for overseeding = broadleaf & sedge spray (eg. Surge, if necessary)
Early Sept.:  Overseeding (tall fescue) with starter fertilizer
Mid-Nov.:  Winter feed fertilizer

... or at least that's how it started.  The lawn is so damn near perfect now that I selectively skip some of these steps (eg. this year there was no need for post-emergent herbicide or fertilizer in May).  Each of these rounds takes me under 30 minutes per acre, so while it sounds like a lot, it's really not a very big deal.  Also, I enjoy mowing less frequently during the hot summer, as my grass just stops, while the neighbors have to keep mowing their weeds in the July and August heat.  The only big expense is the Sept. overseeding.

My current project is reducing my lawn size by about 0.5 acre, planting more woods.


----------



## Squirrely (Jul 13, 2017)

No one has a lawn where we live.  

Greg


----------



## johneh (Jul 13, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Yeah, I've been accused of the same.
> 
> Late Feb: collect soil samples
> Mar.1: develop fertilizer and pH correction plan
> ...



I like my 5 acres of lawn white clover no fertilizer no water just mow when necessary 
and the deer love it and leave my veg. garden alone


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Jul 13, 2017)

I can't wait to get working on my lawn.  I just have to wait for the following things to be less fun...
Kids
Family
Friends
Motorcycles
Working on engines
Machine projects
Vacation
Time at my camp

I live in the country, in the woods.  I have been working for the past 4 years to knock out projects left and right.  I've been successful.  This year, i'm even tempted to put some weed killer on my lawn.  It is about 80% weeds..so this will be interesting!


----------



## Ashful (Jul 13, 2017)

johneh said:


> I like my 5 acres of lawn white clover no fertilizer no water just mow when necessary
> and the deer love it and leave my veg. garden alone


You're lucky.  Around here, an unkept lawn becomes onion grass in spring and nutsedge in summer, both of which grow about 4x faster than grass.  I often mow just once in the whole month of July, whereas those poor bastards with nutsedge have to keep mowing more than once per week, all summer long.  I don't mind mowing when it's cool, but I don't want to be on a mower kicking up dust in 90F+ heat.


sportbikerider78 said:


> This year, i'm even tempted to put some weed killer on my lawn.  It is about 80% weeds..so this will be interesting!



Folks often miss the fact that a little time spent on elimination of weeds means a LOT of time saved on mowing.  It only takes me 90 minutes once per year to put down my pre-emergent herbicide, but it takes 120 - 150 minutes per mowing.  If you can eliminate a half-dozen mowings per year, meaning 800+ minutes of your summer saved for ~90 minutes of invested time, you'd be a sucker not to do it.  Meanwhile, I'm improving curb appeal, and not hating the way my place looks.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Jul 13, 2017)

That's great for next year...plan on doing it.  Anything that will help this year?  
I'd need a granular killer of existing weeds.  My lawn is to spread out to use a liquid killer.


----------



## begreen (Jul 15, 2017)

jebatty said:


> We readily admit that we no longer fit the culture of most of our neighbors, although some now also are shrinking their mowed lawns, seeding native grasses and flowers, and planting trees. And maybe those that are doing these things have discovered, like us, that these things not only restore the beauty of what nature creates, but also that beauty is accompanied by lots of freed up time and expense that used to be spent in maintaining a lawn -- which actually now can include time to play with children and grandchildren, as well as teach them about the birds and bees.


It's great that you recognized some of the detrimental effects of the large dead zones called lawns and were able to turn it around. Even worse is the effect of runoff from these dead zones into water bodies and potentially into aquifers when herbicides and pesticides are used.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 16, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> That's great for next year...plan on doing it.  Anything that will help this year?
> I'd need a granular killer of existing weeds.  My lawn is to spread out to use a liquid killer.



Granular post-emergent product can work, but is tough to time to the right conditions, for us working folk.  How many total acres of grass are we talking, here?  Any special predominant weed, or just general broadleaf stuff?


----------



## brenndatomu (Jul 16, 2017)

Here's my theory on lawns. If its green, mow it and call it "the lawn". Not green? Well then you probably don't even need to mow it.


----------



## jatoxico (Jul 16, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Around here, an unkept lawn becomes onion grass in spring and nutsedge in summer,



What have you found to be most effective against nutsedge, treatment or just crowd it out? My neighbor, who does almost nothing, actually does worse than nothing, he periodically scalps the yard creating a weed factory including a healthy dose of sedge.

In all my years of cutting grass I don't ever recall seeing sedge until fairly recently but it wants to take over.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 16, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> What have you found to be most effective against nutsedge, treatment or just crowd it out? My neighbor, who does almost nothing, actually does worse than nothing, he periodically scalps the yard creating a weed factory including a healthy dose of sedge.
> 
> In all my years of cutting grass I don't ever recall seeing sedge until fairly recently but it wants to take over.


Nutsedge is one of the toughest weeds, you pretty much have to go with one of the sedge-specific herbicides to kill it.  Also, understand it's life-cycle.  It puts out new tubers each season, and each tuber has a 3-year life, which makes it a tough one to kill.

The only thing I've found effective against it is Dismiss, and the price for that wee-lit'l 6 oz. bottle will make your head spin, until you realize that little bottle will treat a full acre of the stuff.  Don't even bother with 4D stuff, or even Surge / Escalade2 level stuff, go right to Dismiss or Sedgehammer.


----------



## jatoxico (Jul 18, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Nutsedge is one of the toughest weeds



It's a toughy alright. Even after it's under control there's no real viable way to manage it at all by manual weeding.

Treated once with a sedge specific treatment designed to affect the foliage. I've read Dismiss works the same way. Seeing fast results but read that because this type only starves the tubers it can take a couple treatments. Sedgehammer may be the better choice since it treats the tubers.


----------



## JoshuaJordan (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi there, implementing good techniques and timing for your lawn care can lead to less effort for maintaining it.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 18, 2017)

jatoxico said:


> It's a toughy alright. Even after it's under control there's no real viable way to manage it at all by manual weeding.
> 
> Treated once with a sedge specific treatment designed to affect the foliage. I've read Dismiss works the same way. Seeing fast results but read that because this type only starves the tubers it can take a couple treatments. Sedgehammer may be the better choice since it treats the tubers.


I can't say anything negative about Dismiss, since it's the best thing I've tried so far.  But maybe I'll have to give Sedgehammer a better look, next year.  I just sprayed my nutsedge on Jul.4, so I'm done for this year.


----------



## jharkin (Jul 26, 2017)

I really wanted to just say screw it and do nothing with the lawn... problem is that alternating years of monsoon and drought have now killed large sections and around here we get creeping charlie (lawn ivy) that takes over and that's probably as hard to kill - and uglier - than Ashful's nutsege problem.

I still wouldn't care except that we plan to sell and move in the next 2-4 years and a lawn that looks like an abandoned lot doesn't fly with prospective buyers....

I dont and never will install sprinklers though.


----------



## jatoxico (Jul 26, 2017)

Ive found creeping charlie is fairly easy to control and doesn't seem to spread too quickly. One application of weed b gon took care of the majority of my problem. Sedge is is a different kettle pf fish.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 26, 2017)

jharkin said:


> I really wanted to just say screw it and do nothing with the lawn... problem is that alternating years of monsoon and drought have now killed large sections and around here we get creeping charlie (lawn ivy) that takes over and that's probably as hard to kill - and uglier - than Ashful's nutsege problem.
> 
> I still wouldn't care except that we plan to sell and move in the next 2-4 years and a lawn that looks like an abandoned lot doesn't fly with prospective buyers....
> 
> I dont and never will install sprinklers though.


Creeping Charlie is fairly easy to control, even using over-the-counter remedies.  Nutsedge is six levels removed from it, in terms of difficulty and cost!

Ground ivy thrives in shady areas on thin turf, so if you have thin areas left by prior years' droughts, this year's cloudy and wet weather probably has that stuff growing nicely.  Triclopyr, Dicamba, or 2,4-D all control ground ivy, to some degree.  Since we're only a few weeks out from annual weed-kill for overseeding purposes (and you'll hit it sooner than me), I'd be ready to hit that lawn with Surge as soon as the chance of heatwave has passed.  I usually do this mid-late August, in preparation for overseeding in mid-September.  You need 3 weeks post-Surge, before you can over-seed, and you want your new seed down at least 4 weeks (preferably 6 weeks) before soil dips below 55F.  This creates a very narrow window to hit, if you don't like wasting money on seed.

http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/msds/Surge-Label.pdf


----------



## jharkin (Jul 26, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Creeping Charlie is fairly easy to control, even using over-the-counter remedies.  Nutsedge is six levels removed from it, in terms of difficulty and cost!
> 
> Ground ivy thrives in shady areas on thin turf, so if you have thin areas left by prior years' droughts, this year's cloudy and wet weather probably has that stuff growing nicely.  Triclopyr, Dicamba, or 2,4-D all control ground ivy, to some degree.  Since we're only a few weeks out from annual weed-kill for overseeding purposes (and you'll hit it sooner than me), I'd be ready to hit that lawn with Surge as soon as the chance of heatwave has passed.  I usually do this mid-late August, in preparation for overseeding in mid-September.  You need 3 weeks post-Surge, before you can over-seed, and you want your new seed down at least 4 weeks (preferably 6 weeks) before soil dips below 55F.  This creates a very narrow window to hit, if you don't like wasting money on seed.
> 
> http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/msds/Surge-Label.pdf




For many years I had been trying to avoid herbicides altogether (dont want the kids being exposed to it, or myself for thatmatter) but now Ive had to give in.  Last year I hit all the trouble spots with Weed-b-Gone Max which slowed it down  but didn't kill it.  Like you suspect its come back worse then ever in this monsoon so  yesterday I bombed the entire lawn  with a Bayer ground ivy control product that's Triclophyr based.    We have had good rain lately and temps are predicted to be in the 70s for hte next couple weeks so its seems like a good window to do it without stressing the lawn.

I'll let you know if it worked and check into that product you linked if it didnt.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Aug 8, 2017)

For the first time, I treated my lawn with a weed and feed product from Home Depot.  It browned the lawn for a few weeks, but I think it really worked!  Next year I'll apply at the right time of year and hopefully see better results.


----------



## maple1 (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm still in the mow-it-every-two-weeks treatment plan...


----------



## Ashful (Aug 8, 2017)

sportbikerider78 said:


> For the first time, I treated my lawn with a weed and feed product from Home Depot.  It browned the lawn for a few weeks, but I think it really worked!  Next year I'll apply at the right time of year and hopefully see better results.


If you want a fantastic lawn next summer, get your post-emergent herbicide spray down in the next week or two.  Then you can aerate and over-seed three weeks following.  It will have time to germinate (even Tall Fescue) before soil temps drop below 55 F near the end of October.

In March, put down a combo pre-emergent herbicide with fertilizer product, and you'll have a good head start for next summer.  Preventing weed germination is most of the battle.


----------



## Dobish (Aug 9, 2017)

my back yard consists of thistle, vigrinia creeper, elm suckers, and rocks.... and some prarie grass.


----------



## venator260 (Aug 11, 2017)

I just Googled nutsedge. Seems my yard has a good bit of nutsedge. But I have an array of different plants in my yard that yard freaks hate. Dandilions, clover, nutsedge, crabgrass, and these little purple flowers that I have no idea what they are, but look really cool for a couple weeks in the spring. There's more of a mix in the older yard that was seeded in the 50's. Half of my yard was a garden from the 50's to the 70's, and then the garden gradually got smaller, so there's a mix of different seedings. 

But it seems to be a self-sustaining system. The only part that I've felt the urge to mess with is our new sand mound. The excavation churned the topsoil down under, and the exposed layer hasn't had 60 years of organic matter mulched into it. I wouldn't care much, but I need to foster grass growth on the exposed clay mount so my $11k hill of dirt doesn't wash away. I'm hoping top dressing with compost and some additional seedings will thicken the grass.


----------



## maple1 (Aug 11, 2017)

venator260 said:


> I just Googled nutsedge. Seems my yard has a good bit of nutsedge. But I have an array of different plants in my yard that yard freaks hate. Dandilions, clover, nutsedge, crabgrass, and these little purple flowers that I have no idea what they are, but look really cool for a couple weeks in the spring. There's more of a mix in the older yard that was seeded in the 50's. Half of my yard was a garden from the 50's to the 70's, and then the garden gradually got smaller, so there's a mix of different seedings.
> 
> But it seems to be a self-sustaining system. The only part that I've felt the urge to mess with is our new sand mound. The excavation churned the topsoil down under, and the exposed layer hasn't had 60 years of organic matter mulched into it. I wouldn't care much, but I need to foster grass growth on the exposed clay mount so my $11k hill of dirt doesn't wash away. I'm hoping top dressing with compost and some additional seedings will thicken the grass.



They didn't seed or sod it? That's a requirement here - last step in the process. Completion inspection will fail if not done.


----------



## venator260 (Aug 11, 2017)

maple1 said:


> They didn't seed or sod it? That's a requirement here - last step in the process. Completion inspection will fail if not done.




I seeded it after the guy moved his equipment out. Now that I read up though, I should have amended the soil a bit before I did. But I had other projects going and wanted that one to be done. He had more materials into in than he figured, and his work would add to my bill for something I could do myself. 

It could very well be a requirement for the final inspection here too. The last time that the inspector came out was when the pipes were stoned in and the pump was installed. Myself and the excavator did everything correctly to that point and worked well with the inspector. My guess is she didn't want to make a special trip just for my system (over an hour). So she said she may be out to keep me on my toes and signed off on it about two weeks later.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 11, 2017)

I suspect it was seeded, but since little care is usually put into segregating top soil from fill (clay), it rarely takes very well.  They also usually use a contractor mix, which might be 60% annual rye, with the balance perennial rye and bluegrass.  That annual rye pops up fast, and gives you a lush lawn for a few weeks, before it dies.  Even the perennial rye will die during the first hard hot summer in PA.  Aerate and overseed with Tall Fescue in early September, and you'll be set for life.  Better yet, since it's such a small area, just rent a slit seeder for the day, and sow in Tall Fescue.  Seed is expensive, so you want to maximize germination rate.

_edit:  we responded to maple at the same time.  What seed did you use?  Fertilizer?  You've obviously already done your homework on soil amendments, not my area of expertise._


----------



## venator260 (Aug 11, 2017)

Ashful said:


> I suspect it was seeded, but since little care is usually put into segregating top soil from fill (clay), it rarely takes very well.  They also usually use a contractor mix, which might be 60% annual rye, with the balance perennial rye and bluegrass.  That annual rye pops up fast, and gives you a lush lawn for a few weeks, before it dies.  Even the perennial rye will die during the first hard hot summer in PA.  Aerate and overseed with Tall Fescue in early September, and you'll be set for life.  Better yet, since it's such a small area, just rent a slit seeder for the day, and sow in Tall Fescue.  Seed is expensive, so you want to maximize germination rate.
> 
> _edit:  we responded to maple at the same time.  What seed did you use?  Fertilizer?  You've obviously already done your homework on soil amendments, not my area of expertise._



I'm sure that it wasn't seeded, I was off work during the last few days of his work and was here the whole time. 

I used Groundwork's Fast Lawn from tractor supply, mainly because it was given to me. I did the typical; spread the seed and then cover over with a layer of straw/hay. As I look though, I see that it's 80% annual ryegrass, so I'll need to reseed with something else. It looked decent when it was about a foot tall. Mowed (with the deck as high as it goes), it's pretty sparse. The excavator did truck in topsoil, but it's pretty rocky. The backside of the mound is all clay that was trucked in, and it's pretty steep. The ditch through the yard is clay that was dug out of the ditch before the pipes were put in. 

I read up on using compost in yards, and they recommend putting on about 1/4 inch twice a year, so my plan is to do that with some mushroom soil when I have time here next week. My thoughts there were that I'll have to get some organic matter into the soil since it's currently all clay. I did not fertilize it. I was going to toss around some 10-10-10 before the next time the forecast calls for rain.

My goal isn't to make it look nice, especially the mound, as it's in the woods behind the house. What I'm after is a good blanket of grass for erosion control.


----------



## maple1 (Aug 11, 2017)

Similar but maybe slightly differing requirements I guess. Here, the top cover (seeding or sodding) is part of the install job, and is all on the installer. He would be on the hook either for possible penalty if not done, or a system repair if erosion does happen. That happened down the road from me, neighbour had serious wash happen and they had to come back & fix it up. So cost them (installer) a few $$$. Not sure if the seed didn't take, or the site grading was off a bit, or they missed doing a drainage ditch or swale or what - but a good part of their system/bed fill washed down over the bank, the stone was exposed in a spot or two. I think it may have been a pretty significant out of the ordinary rain event though.


----------



## Ashful (Aug 11, 2017)

venator260 said:


> I'm sure that it wasn't seeded, I was off work during the last few days of his work and was here the whole time.
> 
> I used Groundwork's Fast Lawn from tractor supply, mainly because it was given to me. I did the typical; spread the seed and then cover over with a layer of straw/hay. As I look though, I see that it's 80% annual ryegrass, so I'll need to reseed with something else. It looked decent when it was about a foot tall. Mowed (with the deck as high as it goes), it's pretty sparse. The excavator did truck in topsoil, but it's pretty rocky. The backside of the mound is all clay that was trucked in, and it's pretty steep. The ditch through the yard is clay that was dug out of the ditch before the pipes were put in.
> 
> ...


Yes, your requirements are a little different than mine.  In your case, I'd just buy some sod for that steep clay back side.  It's going to be easier than trying to get seed to grow, there.  For the rest, you could use "pasture mix", sold by Agway, and many turf shops.  It's usually a blend of local wild grasses, and will grow like nothing you've seen.  As much weed as grass, but it will hold the soil, which is what you're after.

For any seed, use a Starter fertlizer, much higher than 10-10-10.  Think closer to 18-24-12.  If you're investing the time to go buy it, and then apply it, you might as well use the right product.  Fertilizer is cheap, time is money.


----------



## venator260 (Aug 11, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Yes, your requirements are a little different than mine.  In your case, I'd just buy some sod for that steep clay back side.  It's going to be easier than trying to get seed to grow, there.  For the rest, you could use "pasture mix", sold by Agway, and many turf shops.  It's usually a blend of local wild grasses, and will grow like nothing you've seen.  As much weed as grass, but it will hold the soil, which is what you're after.
> 
> For any seed, use a Starter fertlizer, much higher than 10-10-10.  Think closer to 18-24-12.  If you're investing the time to go buy it, and then apply it, you might as well use the right product.  Fertilizer is cheap, time is money.




Thanks for the advise. I'll have to give this a try.


----------



## Dobish (Aug 16, 2017)

in the side yard (that I was trying to repair after the tenants dog decided to tear it all up) i had about a truck full of ground ivy, lambs quarters, and some other type of stringy thing (*Convolvulus maybe?*).

I had grass there a few years ago, and now it is all back to being dirt. I think I am going to have to tear it all up, till it, and start over.... honestly thinking about astroturf.....

This was right after I leveled it, amended it and had it all nice.




I got my grass to grow:


Then this is after I tore up a lot of the weeds....


----------

