# Fence post ?



## Pallet Pete (Jun 20, 2013)

Will landscape timbers work for a fence post with painted or rubberized bottoms where it goes in the ground ?

Pete


----------



## Badfish740 (Jun 20, 2013)

I wouldn't use them.  Usually when you see them in the store they're warped already.  My neighbor's fence was done with landscape timbers and they're rotting/leaning/etc...  I know they're double the price but you can't go wrong with pressure treated 4x4s.


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 20, 2013)

That's actually why I asked 4*4's run 11.67 landscape timbers run 1.97. The price difference made me wonder.

Pete


----------



## heat seeker (Jun 21, 2013)

I don't see painting or rubberizing the timbers as a long term prevention for rot. If you don't mind replacing the fence posts every few years, you could buy 5 or 6 timbers for every PT 4X4...


----------



## pyroholic (Jun 21, 2013)

A 4x4 is nearly always made from Southern Yellow Pine (premium grade for dimensional lumber); a landscape timber is made from #3 grade SPF (spruce/pine/fir).  The same difference as there is between a utility grade 2x4 and the wood trusses are made from.  My .02 is spend the extra $ now cause digging post holes sucks.


----------



## jebatty (Jun 21, 2013)

No disagreement with the advice but here's what I've done. Our fence is only about 100 feet long, and we wanted it to be rustic. So I cut down some Jack Pine trees with about a 6" diameter trunk. Made fence posts out of these, no treatment at all, dug the holes and put them in the ground. The posts last about 5-8 years before rotted to the point when they need to be replaced. And that's what I do, make a new post and put it in the old hole and life goes on. The rails for the fence also are hand split Jack Pine and they last about 8-10 years.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 21, 2013)

Replacing every part of a fence every 5-8-10 years is not how I'd want to spend my time.  Why not treat the jack pine?  Seems like time & money well-spent.


----------



## lukem (Jun 21, 2013)

They'll only be good for about 5 years untreated.  Painting them might buy you an extra year or two.

Got any locust trees available?


----------



## Ashful (Jun 21, 2013)

All the old farm fences around here are cedar.  Cut a tree, limb it, plug it in the ground.  I still have many lining the edge of my property, and I don't know how old they are, but I'm sure they're much older than me.


----------



## Backwoods Savage (Jun 21, 2013)

Pete, I've used a couple of them when we just needed some short posts. Worked well.


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 21, 2013)

Thanks for all the advice guys I went ahead and purchased 4*4 treated timbers. It's a lot more but very sturdy. 

Pete


----------



## pyroholic (Jun 21, 2013)

Looks good Pete, you won't regret it in 5-8-10 years.  Not that there's anything wrong with jebatty's system, just not my thing.


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 23, 2013)

Can the pickets touch or do they need a space in between ? I am using 72" tall by 3.5" wide by 1/4" thick pine slats off of pallets as the pickets. I will put up some more pics today.

Thanks again 
Pete


----------



## Ashful (Jun 23, 2013)

Assuming they're PT hem/fir:  Either, or.  Full privacy, but them tight, but they'll shrink a bit as the ACQ dries.  

Two warnings:

1.  Don't discount the wind load if butting tight.  Figure wind load as proportional to slat width / gap width.

2.  KD (non-PT) lumber should not be butted tight, as its likely to grow.  Most KD lumber is 7-8% MC, and will grow to an ambient closer to 16% outdoors.  In this case, I'd gap 3.5" planks at least 1/8".

If you want full privacy with better looks (from both sides) and reduced wind load, consider shadow box.  You'll hate painting it, but it looks great.


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 23, 2013)

I don't know what KD and PT lumber are could you explain please ? I am using pine, fire and a few other soft woods that came off the pallets as the slats.

Pete


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 23, 2013)

This is the progress so far as well as a slat to show you what I am doing.

Pete


----------



## Ashful (Jun 23, 2013)

PT = pressure treated

KD = kiln dried

I have no experience building with pallet wood, but would treat it as KD if stored indoors, or just assume its already at equilibrium if stored outdoors.


----------



## Bocefus78 (Jun 24, 2013)

I'm gonna keep this one going. I'm having a 6' shadow box fence installed next month and was given a choice of cedar or PT posts. Ive thought and thought and still undecided. Posts will be set in concrete within 2" of grade level if that makes a difference. There is no price difference. I will not be living here forever. Maybe another 5-10 years max.

What would you get???

Oh, and besides hiding the piles of wood from my nice new neighbors, here is the main reason for the fence. He hauls splits for me too!


----------



## Ashful (Jun 24, 2013)

I would use PT for the posts. They will last much longer, especially if set in concrete, and they're a small fraction of the cost of cedar. Since you're doing shadow box, it will be pretty easy to hide the post behind a picket on the pretty side of the fence.

Also, setting posts in concrete is often not the best choice. You're much better off drilling the hole, setting the post, and then compacting modified crushed stone in around it. It will hold the post like concrete, but will keep the post dry. Even better if you drill the hole 6" deeper than necessary, and put 6" of crushed stone in the bottom of the hole before setting the post.  Posts set in concrete usually rot off right at the top of the concrete. This will take close to 20 years for PT, but could happen in 5 - 10 years with cedar.


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 24, 2013)

The in ground contact green pt 4*4s will out last you from what I understand. My friend built his home and the foundation is green pt and very very solid. I didn't even bother with cement after seing that.

Pete


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 24, 2013)

Oops wrong PDF ill find the correct one.

Pete


----------



## ScotO (Jun 24, 2013)

Lookin' good, Pete!  I'm jealous!  I cant wait to build my shed, but its on hold yet another year.....too many "irons in the fire" right now!!


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 24, 2013)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Lookin' good, Pete!  I'm jealous!  I cant wait to build my shed, but its on hold yet another year.....too many "irons in the fire" right now!!


I have another thread I started a while ago sorry bought that I just realized it last night. Here are some more shots for ya with my helper too!

Pete


----------



## Augie (Jun 24, 2013)

Looking Good


----------



## Ashful (Jun 24, 2013)

Your helper is much cuter than mine:


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 24, 2013)

Joful said:


> Your helper is much cuter than mine:
> 
> View attachment 105157


That's my 14 year old niece who needed a distraction from Boys Boys Boys lol so I gave her a job and non boy conversation.

Pete


----------



## gzecc (Jun 24, 2013)

Unfortunately the devil is in the details, even when it comes to pressure treated wood. Most PT wood is not designed for ground contact. Make sure the tag on it states "ground contact" if you going to bury it.


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 24, 2013)

gzecc said:


> Unfortunately the devil is in the details, even when it comes to pressure treated wood. Most PT wood is not designed for ground contact. Make sure the tag on it states "ground contact" if you going to bury it.



Good advice I did that but only because I saw it on one other tag and it made me curious.

Pete


----------



## pyroholic (Jun 25, 2013)

gzecc said:


> Unfortunately the devil is in the details, even when it comes to pressure treated wood. Most PT wood is not designed for ground contact. Make sure the tag on it states "ground contact" if you going to bury it.


 
I don't believe there is any PT that is NOT made for ground contact anymore. With the advent of ACQ the only variations are in the chemical composition to aid certain varieties of wood to absorb the treatment, and most recently color variants.


*ACQ-A:* Standardized by the American Wood-Preservers' Association (AWPA)1 in 1992 and deleted in 2000 due to a lack of use.
*ACQ-B:* Standardized by the AWPA in 1992 and is primarily used for the treatment of western wood species such as Douglas fir because its ammonia carrier solution allows the ACQ to penetrate into these difficult-to-treat species. This formulation contains 66.7% copper oxide and 33.3% quat as didecyldimethylammonium chloride (DDAC). ACQ-B treated wood has a dark greenish-brown color that fades to a lighter brown and may have a slight ammonia odor until dry.
*ACQ-C:* Standardized by the AWPA in 2002, it contains 66.7% copper oxide and 33.3% quat as alkyldimethylbenzylammonium chloride (ADBAC). Ammonia and/or ethanolamine can be used as the carrying solution in this formulation. Wood treated with ACQ-C varies in color that ranges between that of type B and type D.
*ACQ-D:* Most wood-treating plants in the US generally use the ACQ-D formulation except for much of the west coast. Standardized by the AWPA in 1995, ACQ-D contains 66.7% copper oxide and 33.3% quat as DDAC. Type D differs from type B in that it uses an ethanolamine carrier solution rather than ammonia. Wood treated with ACQ-D has a lighter greenish-brown color with little odor.
Source


----------



## Ashful (Jun 25, 2013)

pyroholic said:


> I don't believe there is any PT that is NOT made for ground contact anymore.



Sure is, at least last time I checked.  Just an issue of how much ACQ they press into the wood.  Lower concentrations used in 1x's and 2x's meant for above grade, higher concentration used in 4x4's and landscape timber.


----------



## jharkin (Jun 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> I would use PT for the posts. They will last much longer, especially if set in concrete, and they're a small fraction of the cost of cedar. Since you're doing shadow box, it will be pretty easy to hide the post behind a picket on the pretty side of the fence.
> 
> Also, setting posts in concrete is often not the best choice. You're much better off drilling the hole, setting the post, and then compacting modified crushed stone in around it. It will hold the post like concrete, but will keep the post dry. Even better if you drill the hole 6" deeper than necessary, and put 6" of crushed stone in the bottom of the hole before setting the post. Posts set in concrete usually rot off right at the top of the concrete. This will take close to 20 years for PT, but could happen in 5 - 10 years with cedar.


 
+1, I did the stone method for my cedar lamp and mailbox posts. Dug a hole 1ft dia. and deeper than the post, lined with landscape fabric, a few inches of stone in the bottom, then filled in stone around the post and just top covered the final couple inched with soil. Use a sledge to compact the stone tight around the post and it wont go anywhere.

Like Joful said, setting the posts in concrete is often the worst thing to do, it forms a bathtub around the base of the post holding water in. The professional crew I hired to do our fence told me the same, they only set gate posts in concrete if needed, everything else goes right in the dirt and actually lasts longer that way.


----------



## ScotO (Jun 25, 2013)

jharkin said:


> +1, I did the stone method for my cedar lamp and mailbox posts. Dug a hole 1ft dia. and deeper than the post, lined with landscape fabric, a few inches of stone in the bottom, then filled in stone around the post and just top covered the final couple inched with soil. Use a sledge to compact the stone tight around the post and it wont go anywhere.
> 
> Like Joful said, setting the posts in concrete is often the worst thing to do, it forms a bathtub around the base of the post holding water in. The professional crew I hired to do our fence told me the same, they only set gate posts in concrete if needed, everything else goes right in the dirt and actually lasts longer that way.


Same here when I built both my deck and the kids' playhouse.  I dug the holes for the posts around 40" deep, lined the floor of the holes with red brick, stood and plumbed the posts, and packed 2RC shale around the holes......they are solid as concrete, with the ability to "breath".  And in the event that you would need to remove the post, its pretty easy to do (compared to getting that concrete out).


----------



## lukem (Jun 25, 2013)

I always backfill posts with pea gravel.  Plumb it up...back fill....shake the post a little.  Tight as can be.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 25, 2013)

Modified will tighten up even better, like concrete!


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 25, 2013)

I have a paint spray gun that I use for automotive and spraying enamel in general. I am getting ready to paint soon and had an idea ( light bulb ) moment. Would it be possible to use a plastic hose to slip over the syphen end and drop the other end in the 5 gallon pale ? This would eliminate the canister. 

Pete


----------



## jharkin (Jun 25, 2013)

Rigged like that, I don't know if a syphon feed gun would be able to draw paint. If it does at minimum you will need a bigger nozzle for latex.

The make dedicated rigs like this that use a pressurized tank to feed the paint to the gun...usually hvlp... Take a look at spraygunworld to get an idea. Not cheap however.


----------



## pyroholic (Jun 25, 2013)

Joful said:


> Sure is, at least last time I checked. Just an issue of how much ACQ they press into the wood. Lower concentrations used in 1x's and 2x's meant for above grade, higher concentration used in 4x4's and landscape timber.


 
That makes sense, I guess I was only considering posts.  Still have never seem more than one type of any given dimension of lumber available at any lumber yard I've been to.


----------



## gzecc (Jun 26, 2013)

pyroholic said:


> That makes sense, I guess I was only considering posts. Still have never seem more than one type of any given dimension of lumber available at any lumber yard I've been to.


 If you look at the tags on the end of the demensional pt lumber at home depot it will say "not for ground contact". Lowes I believe has "ground contact" pt demensional lumber.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 26, 2013)

gzecc said:


> If you look at the tags on the end of the demensional pt lumber at home depot it will say "not for ground contact". Lowes I believe has "ground contact" pt demensional lumber.


 

That's likely because you're looking at 2x4's in one store and 4x4's in another. Lumber in both stores rated for ground contact are treated with ACQ 0.40 PCF, and for above grade use it's ACQ 0.25 PCF. This is all industry-standardized and closely controlled by your gub'ment, not up to store-by-store discretion.


----------



## HDRock (Jun 27, 2013)

Hay Pete
Super ,Super, project, with pallet fence boards.
I suggest U_* DO NOT*_ paint them   ,cuz down the road, U will end up with a flaking , pealing Mess .
Oil basted stain  would be much better, put some oil in that pallet wood to preserve it,  and it can be applied with a pump sprayer.
Deck stain and fence stain are different ,with  fence stain U can use high pigment stain to get the color U want .
If U already bought paint , take it back , really  !!


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 27, 2013)

HDRock said:


> Hay Pete
> Super ,Super, project, with pallet fence boards.
> I suggest U_* DO NOT*_ paint them   ,cuz down the road, U will end up with a flaking , pealing Mess .
> Oil basted stain  would be much better, put some oil in that pallet wood to preserve it,  and it can be applied with a pump sprayer.
> ...


Hello my friend it's been a while ! Yes I was going to do a stain however it is very pricey. We ended up 
purchasing barn and fence oil based enamel. I used it on my wood shed a few years ago and it still looks great no peeling 
or flaking at all. My father also painted a yard swing made from 4*4s over 20 years ago with it and it looks like new still. I won't lie I would rather stain it but we are on a tight budget and $67 for enamel 5 gallon pale fits well I refuse to paint with latex it never goes well for us. Do you know of a cheaper method to buy stain by chance ? It's $200 for 5gallons in my area I would love to find a better price !

Pete


----------



## gzecc (Jun 27, 2013)

Joful said:


> That's likely because you're looking at 2x4's in one store and 4x4's in another. Lumber in both stores rated for ground contact are treated with ACQ 0.40 PCF, and for above grade use it's ACQ 0.25 PCF. This is all industry-standardized and closely controlled by your gub'ment, not up to store-by-store discretion.


 The point is that my local home depot's don't have ground contact demensional pt lumber except for 4x4 and 6x6. Lowes does.


----------



## Ashful (Jun 27, 2013)

gzecc said:


> The point is that my local home depot's don't have ground contact demensional pt lumber except for 4x4 and 6x6. Lowes does.


 

Cool.  I'll have to check next time I'm at our local Lowes.  It used to be that both carried timbers in ACQ 0.40 and all planks in ACQ 0.25.  Maybe that has changed, recently.


----------



## Pallet Pete (Jun 27, 2013)

The progress as of last night.

Pete


----------

