# Shed Experts - See what the Don's special custom channel under the Rake Boards is for!!!



## Don2222 (Aug 18, 2011)

Hello

A friend and I are building a shed, which I have never done before. The building code for this part of town is no more than 100 sqft max. So 10x10 it is! The 6x6s in the pic below are just edge trimming.

I do have 3/4 inch stones under the blocks down 2 ft and I will have stones around the edge for the drip edge.
*
Two Questions?

Is there a good reason to cover the ground under the shed with 3/4" stones?

Is it better to have the shed on 2 blocks so it will be higher and more air will flow under it?*

See pic below. Click to enlarge:


----------



## smokinj (Aug 18, 2011)

If there is a floor i would not do stones. And yes you want air flow under there.


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 18, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> If there is a floor i would not do stones. And yes you want air flow under there.



Hi smokinjay

Yes, there will be a plywood floor. Why no stones?


----------



## smokinj (Aug 18, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> smokinjay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You got block so its up off the ground. Unless the drainage is very poor it will be fine with out gravel under there. Now if you want to make it prettier?


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 18, 2011)

Hello

Thanks for explaining, the drainage is ok there, but I do not want any mold in the shed.


----------



## smokinj (Aug 18, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> Thanks for explaining, the drainage is ok there, but I do not want any mold in the shed.



Air flow you will not but,...Doesnt hurt to over build!  ;-)


----------



## fishingpol (Aug 18, 2011)

My dad just had a new shed put in.  He put down a roll of fencing laid flat with 3/4" crushed stone.  Woodchucks will not be living under his shed with that in place.  His joist are pressure treated, so it is close to the ground.  His 30 year old shed he took down was regular pine floor joists, no rot.  It was dry as a bone under there.  one or two patio blocks will be fine.  Stone and some wire barrier would be worth it.


----------



## firefighterjake (Aug 19, 2011)

Not a shed expert . . . but I do have a shed.

Like others have said . . . if the drainage is good, there is no need for extra stone underneath.

One patio block should be fine . . . as long as it is up off the ground and allows some air flow.


----------



## billb3 (Aug 19, 2011)

you might want stones for a base for the blocks on top of soil, you might want stones if  your shed had to be on skids and not up on blocks.


I've seen people  excavate topsoil and fill with stone only to end up with the stones sitting in a pond every time it rained.

Two blocks would allow you to get under it and maybe even store hoses and pipes  and things
requires a longer  ramp to get into though with wheeled things


----------



## fishingpol (Aug 19, 2011)

The gravel my dad used were for discouraging woodchucks and skunks for burrowing, not for drainage.


----------



## velvetfoot (Aug 19, 2011)

I saw these concrete deck pads, or whatever they called at the HD.
They have an opening for a 4x4.


----------



## Danno77 (Aug 19, 2011)

What about that soil cement thing that Goose did for his shed? That sounded like a cool idea as a shed base.


----------



## jimbom (Aug 19, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> What about that soil cement thing that Goose did for his shed? That sounded like a cool idea as a shed base.



Soil cement has a place and can be useful.  I have soil cemented airfield shoulders, road bases, hard stands,  and light airplane landing strips.  I know your idea is not a big fancy engineered project.  However, please take a few minutes to determine from an internet search if you really want to do this.  The right kind of soil, moisture, foundation material, mix proportion, and compaction is needed if you don't want to waste your time and money.  YMMV

One of the best documents out thirty years ago on soil cement was something the army corps of engineers published.  I don't remember what is was, but probably a tech manual or something.  I am not up on their system, but it is probably on line somewhere.  In any case, it was practical and useful.

My intent is not to be a wet blanket or anything.  But sometimes I can't stifle myself.  Just to let you know, we have a long gravel lane to our house.  It is a pia, but I have never once considered soil cement for my own place.


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 19, 2011)

Hello

Thanks for all the great info! Like the stones for the woodchucks, my neighbor has one under his shed that he cannot get rid of!

Just picked up a white vinyl double glazed window with a screen that is 30" x 40" at the Habitat Homes ReStore in Lawrence for $30 smackarous! *Is that a good price for that size window for New construction with the nailing flange?*

See pics below
1st pic - Inside
2nd pic - Outside


----------



## smokinj (Aug 20, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Hello
> 
> Thanks for all the great info! Like the stones for the woodchucks, my neighbor has one under his shed that he cannot get rid of!
> 
> ...



Thats an Awesome price...I am getting 4 for free but they are the old wooden ones.


----------



## fishingpol (Aug 20, 2011)

Yes $30 is a good price.  I did not know that place existed.  I'm looking to replace my basement door.  I may be checking that place out.  Thanks for the info.


----------



## Danno77 (Aug 20, 2011)

I would't pay 10 bucks for a vinyl window. Find a nice free wooden in the dumpster from some jokester who is molesting an old home. That 100 year old window will outlast your shed, but a vinyl one will start to fail in 5 years (if it's cheap) or 15 (if it's not).


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 21, 2011)

Hello

Now I am leveling the shed blocks with a water Level. See pic

Just tamp in some stakes and mark a reference point on each stake that is the same height. Water seeks its own level!
Then measure down the same distance on each stake to the cement block and add stones underneath to adjust! Whala each block is now the same height!

In example I found the heighest block, then went down 7.5 inches from the mark on the stake for each block!! See yellow arrows.

Amazing, I did not realize how the ground slopes a tad! The water level is true!


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 22, 2011)

Hello

Well, got the Weed Block Pro down and a few more stones. Will now cover all with more stones!


----------



## peakbagger (Aug 22, 2011)

Make sure you dig down and bury some hardware cloth about 10 to 12 inches deep at least one foot out from the shed and run it up the sides of the shed to keep the darn skunks out. They just love to den up under sheds and they are a PITA to get them out.


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 22, 2011)

peakbagger said:
			
		

> Make sure you dig down and bury some hardware cloth about 10 to 12 inches deep at least one foot out from the shed and run it up the sides of the shed to keep the darn skunks out. They just love to den up under sheds and they are a PITA to get them out.



What is hardware cloth?


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 22, 2011)

Hello

Got more stone down. Only used 2 tons. Could use another ton atleast!


----------



## peakbagger (Aug 22, 2011)

Its galvanized screen with 3/8"x3/8" openings, available at any hardware store. The skunks and other critter's claws get caught in the mesh and it is rugged enough that they cant chew through it.


----------



## Stegman (Aug 23, 2011)

Looks good Don. I'm undertaking the same project this fall, and it looks like you're a few days ahead of me. I'm going 8x12 though. Wanted to go 10x12 but need a 10 foot setback in my town, so I had to downsize.

I laid down the 4x4s around the perimeter on Sunday and have 3.5 yards of gravel being delivered on Thursday (i'm filling the 19x20 area under and around the shed. 

I'm hoping to set the blocks and build the floor this weekend. I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. Good luck.


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 25, 2011)

Stegman said:
			
		

> Looks good Don. I'm undertaking the same project this fall, and it looks like you're a few days ahead of me. I'm going 8x12 though. Wanted to go 10x12 but need a 10 foot setback in my town, so I had to downsize.
> 
> I laid down the 4x4s around the perimeter on Sunday and have 3.5 yards of gravel being delivered on Thursday (i'm filling the 19x20 area under and around the shed.
> 
> I'm hoping to set the blocks and build the floor this weekend. I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. Good luck.



Neato Stegman

Please post some pics as you go. I ended up getting another yard of stones so it took me 3.125 Tons or almost 3 yards!

I will post more pics to, Also do not forget to put the weed block fabric before the stones!


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 26, 2011)

Hello

Well, the fence door was not right and very close to the shed base. So after thinking about it for a while, I said Let's Fix the door and include it in the shed base!!

So I dug it up and added weed block and stones. Then screwed a piece of scrap primed pine as a cross brace to keep the door from sagging!

If you click on the 5th pic below to enlarge it, you can easily see the 2 yellow arrows pointing to the nails sloping from right to left. That really shows how much the door was sagging


----------



## Stegman (Aug 26, 2011)

Dueling sheds!

Got my shed area mostly finished yesterday. I'm kinda chapped because I was going to build the floor this weekend, and then I found out Irene was on her way. So we're going to have to hold off until Labor Day.


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 28, 2011)

Stegman said:
			
		

> Dueling sheds!
> 
> Got my shed area mostly finished yesterday. I'm kinda chapped because I was going to build the floor this weekend, and then I found out Irene was on her way. So we're going to have to hold off until Labor Day.



Looking good there Stegman

We just have a rain delay now!


----------



## Don2222 (Aug 28, 2011)

hello


Well one more fence door fix and on with the shed after the hurricane!

Most Universal Gravity Latches for Wooden Picket Fence Door have no pull cable for opening from within!
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/78091/


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 25, 2011)

Hello

2 month delay but we started building the shed today

It will be a Home Depot Floor.

8x10x10 joists with PT 3/4" plywood floor.

The secret will be the foil covered foam board held up by pt runners we cut from 1x4 PT planks!!

See pics below!!


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 25, 2011)

Hello

The stones and Water Level made it alot easier to get the floor level

Click pic to see bubble
*Does it look level??*


----------



## Waulie (Oct 25, 2011)

Maybe I missed it, but why all the stone and weed block?  With a plywood floor, I wouldn't expect anything to grow under there.  I would highly recommend the hardware cloth perimeter, though.  I would do it on the inside so you can run it at least 12 inches deep and fasten it to the perimeter board where it won't be visible.


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 25, 2011)

Waulie said:
			
		

> Maybe I missed it, but why all the stone and weed block?  With a plywood floor, I wouldn't expect anything to grow under there.  I would highly recommend the hardware cloth perimeter, though.  I would do it on the inside so you can run it at least 12 inches deep and fasten it to the perimeter board where it won't be visible.



Hi Waulie

Well the stones make it real easy to get the floor level. Also good for drainage so no mold.

The best part is to keep the animals from living under there.

None of my neighbors did the stones under their shed.
One neighbor has a woodchuck living under his shed. Another neighbor has a skunk there. Two others have chipmunks living there!!

With 3 tons of stones and weed block under the stones, no animal will be burrowing their nose under my shed!


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 25, 2011)

Hello

Finally found a good way to Insulate the shed Floor

Check out these pics!! foil Backed Foam Board (Tuff Board) mounted on 1" PT runners along the joists
TUFF-R 1 3/8" R8.9 with heat retaining foil  No cold feet in the winter
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-M...Id=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202939006


----------



## backpack09 (Oct 26, 2011)

Under my shed is all 3/4 stone, and mr woodchuck thinks its a beautiful place to live.


----------



## mayhem (Oct 26, 2011)

I may have missed it while skimming the thread, but how do the stones make it easier to level your floor?  You don't seem to be sinking posts down below the permafrost layer so I'm unclear on how this shed is expected to stay where you put it when the winter comes and that nice box you made fills with water, freezes and expands like an ice cube tray.  Won't your shed wind up moving some?

I need a shed myself and my biggest barrier for not doing it yet is the cost and difficulty involved with putting in 6x6 posts 5 feet down underground, I have very rocky property.

Regarding the insulation.  Unless the building is heated, the floor is going to be the same temp inside as outside.  No matter how much you insulate that floor, its eventually going to lose all the heat unless you have some way to put heat energy into the inside of the shed.  Again, I may have missed this part as well...apologies if I did.

Looking good so far, can't wait to see the finished product.


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 26, 2011)

Backpack09 said:
			
		

> Under my shed is all 3/4 stone, and mr woodchuck thinks its a beautiful place to live.



Can you put chicken wore around the base to keep him out?


----------



## fossil (Oct 26, 2011)

mayhem said:
			
		

> ...Regarding the insulation.  Unless the building is heated, the floor is going to be the same temp inside as outside.  No matter how much you insulate that floor, its eventually going to lose all the heat unless you have some way to put heat energy into the inside of the shed...



Yup, I was just about to comment on the same thing.  It's basic Heat Transfer.  Absent some heat source, it'll all come to equilibrium with ambient.  The only way I can imagine the floor insulation doing anything would be if the structure were provided with some sort of internal heat source...and then in the interest of economy, you'd want to insulate the rest of the structure as well.  Rick


----------



## begreen (Oct 26, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Waulie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got mice or rats? They love setups like this. We have lots of them. Is the bottom side covered with 1/4" hardware cloth to keep the rodents away from the insulation?


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 26, 2011)

mayhem said:
			
		

> I may have missed it while skimming the thread, but how do the stones make it easier to level your floor?  You don't seem to be sinking posts down below the permafrost layer so I'm unclear on how this shed is expected to stay where you put it when the winter comes and that nice box you made fills with water, freezes and expands like an ice cube tray.  Won't your shed wind up moving some?
> 
> I need a shed myself and my biggest barrier for not doing it yet is the cost and difficulty involved with putting in 6x6 posts 5 feet down underground, I have very rocky property.
> 
> ...



Hello

Under each block I dug down 2 feet and filled with stones. So it should not settle too much. I agree about the insulation but I may work in there from time to time and small heater would work well if there is a little insulation.

Not sure about rodents eating foil backed rigid foam. 
Rodents like mice usually have a reason to eat there way thru something. If they can smell food on the other side they will go thru anything their teeth can chew. So the article below states they CAN eat the rigid foam. Some foam companies state the foam will help stop odors from going thru a wood structure!

So WILL the mice eat the foil and foam under the shed? That is the question.

Here is an answer about mice!
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex594
Economic Losses to Mice

There is no way of placing a monetary value on human suffering and damage caused by mice. The greatest loss is probably not what mice eat, but what is wasted and contaminated.

In six months, one pair of mice can eat more than two kilograms (4 lbs.) of food and deposit about 18,000 droppings. Food contaminated by mice is about ten times greater than what is eaten. Also, food wasted by mouse nibbling is much more than what is eaten. So common are mice, that it is no wonder their hairs and sometimes droppings, end up in all types of food commodities, from canned beans to loaves of bread.

Structural damage caused by rodents can be expensive. In recent years the trend toward use of insulated confinement facilities to raise swine and poultry, for instance, has led to increased rodent damage. Mice are very destructive to rigid foam, fibreglass batt and other types of insulation in walls and attics of such structures.

Mice also gnaw wooden structures causing grain and feed to be wasted. They also undermine buildings by burrowing, which eventually causes structural failure and collapse.

Electrical wiring gnawed by mice causes many fires each year, listed as "cause unknown".

*Hardware Cloth is certainly a good idea!
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1290448&cp=1302712*


----------



## mayhem (Oct 26, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Under each block I dug down 2 feet and filled with stones. So it should not settle too much. I agree about the insulation but I may work in there from time to time and small heater would work well if there is a little insulation.



Thanks, I was referring to ice building up and heaving the structure, not settling.  Is the idea that the water and ice will expand inside the space between the stones ans the stones can shift with the ice wthout heaving the shed?


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 26, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hello BeGreen

  If we hang hardware cloth from the joists down to the stones in between the cinder blocks, will that keep the rodents out from under the shed? See Pic below


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 26, 2011)

mayhem said:
			
		

> Don2222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, you are correct, that is why some really old roads have big frost heaves in the winter. They do not have a good base of stones under the road pavement.


----------



## begreen (Oct 26, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That would be better than nothing, though don't underestimate their persistence. Survival is a powerful force. Maybe take it down the side, then out for 6" and cover it with gravel? Leave no holes or they will find them.


----------



## smokinj (Oct 26, 2011)

I can say this if its a 2 foot piece let the extra lye on the ground. Keeps them from digging under. Other hand a fast cat comes in handy!


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 28, 2011)

Hello

Finally, the materials for the shed shell has arrived!


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 29, 2011)

Hello

Snow is hampering construction!!
See pic


----------



## Don2222 (Oct 31, 2011)

Hello

Well the snowstorm made it tougher, but we just shoveled off the snow and started the walls today. 

See pics below:
Click to enlarge


----------



## gpcollen1 (Nov 1, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> mayhem said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does not have to be the base that is the issue.  Just like your driveway, any cracks and crevices that will let in melted snow/ice will refreeze and heave the road.  Sure those large road heaves are a bigger animal but there can be a variety of factors there.


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hello

I agree that cracks can get water and freeze up.

Anyway

Got the Shed LVL BEAM in today see pics below!!


----------



## pen (Nov 2, 2011)

I'd say that ridge pole is more than sufficient.

pen


----------



## gpcollen1 (Nov 2, 2011)

The LVL may be overkill BUT I like it!!  Love the fact the are so readily available these days.  Got a few Double LVLs in the house from the renovation...that is not yet complete...


----------



## jharkin (Nov 2, 2011)

Are you building a shed or a bunker? 


BTW I missed the answer - what was the purpose of insulating the floor? Are ytou going to insulate the whole thing and install heat?


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 2, 2011)

jharkin said:
			
		

> Are you building a shed or a bunker?
> 
> 
> BTW I missed the answer - what was the purpose of insulating the floor? Are ytou going to insulate the whole thing and install heat?



Hi jharkin

Yes, the cold shed floor in the winter became apparent when doing some research on what people do for their sheds!

One of my favorite sheds is the one in these 2 videos below. The lady did complain about a cold floor. So I figured that once the shed is built that any changes to the floor would be almost impossible. So I thought about it for a month but only about Roxul and Pink Fiberglass. So my carpenter and I brainstormed and came up with the strong double foil glazed R8.9 Rigid Foam on runners idea! Not alot of insulation but since heat rises, it should be enough to keep the floors from being really cold if the shed is used all day in the winter!!

In the 1st video she shows some rigid foam lying on the ground. Sounds like it was never installed. Probably to hard to install it, so she said she is seriously considering Closed Cell Spray Foam insulation. I would think there would be a slight problem. How would the spray foam guys get under there to do the job??? So that is why I did the foam board right under the floor where it counts!

Walk around shed tour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdePCDj69TA

*See Inside has electric space heaters*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g2vN0BU7y0&NR=1 

This shed has a urinal since there is a fridge with beer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s5N8J69mtU


----------



## Gasifier (Nov 2, 2011)

Nice job Don. Looking good. Keep up the good work.


----------



## jharkin (Nov 2, 2011)

Don,
I gotcha... Planning to heat it in the future and don't want to have to tear up the floor to insulate. But do keep in mind that like everybody says that insulation wont do anything until you are actually adding heat somehow.

BTW, hope this doesn't sound like nitpicking, but I could point out that heat doesn't actually rise. Hot air does rise relative to cold outside air (hotter = less dense = bouyancy).  I know a lot of folks think this is the reason that codes call for more attic than floor insulation. Its not really, the actual reason is two fold:

#1 - The floor is typically over a basement or crawl. Basement temps are moderated by the constant 55F ground temp of the soil. Less temperature differential equals less heat loss than through the walls to cold outside air, reducing the need for insulation.
#2 - the attic is usually the easiest place to add great depth of insulation.

Hot air rising plays only a small role in causing more of a temperature differential to outside at the ceiling than through the lower walls...


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 4, 2011)

Hello

Yes, no cold floors if I am in there on a cold winter day with a small heater! See pic below:


Click to enlarge


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 4, 2011)

Hello

Anyone use a little Grace Ice and Water shield on their shed?

We did the whole roof with it. See pic


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 5, 2011)

Hello

Just a few more Cap shingles over this ridge vent and this roof is done! See pic below:

We used 3 tab shingles for the starter shingles and then we cut the cap shingles from the 3 tab shingles. This way one bundle of 3 tab shingles was all we needed!


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 6, 2011)

Hello

Roof is all set now!

Check out the Rake boards on the right side. We added another board under the rake board to create a gap or channel under the rake board between the house. This was done before the roof was shingled so the drip edge and shingles cover all boards and roof!

*This gap is just wide enough and deep enough to install ROPE LIGHT!! LOL*

Click pic to enlarge!


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 6, 2011)

Ok, when do the chickens move in?


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 6, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Ok, when do the chickens move in?



Soon as I get the lofts and heat in!!


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello

Time for the shed wrap! 

The original non-woven Tyvek could not breath and would hold moisture in. That is not good for the sides of the shed if water gets trapped underneath.

http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek/en_US/index.html

Our supply shop had Typar. 

This new product does not hold moisture when so siding will not rot.
http://www.typar.com/

See pic below:


----------



## pen (Nov 7, 2011)

Glad to see things are going well but we are getting kinda blogish here.  Doesn't seem that you are in need of too much advice.

pen


----------



## Don2222 (Nov 7, 2011)

pen said:
			
		

> Glad to see things are going well but we are getting kinda blogish here.  Doesn't seem that you are in need of too much advice.
> 
> pen



Ok Pen

Here is the final picture of the shed. The ramp was put in 11-18-2011.

It just needs some paint.

Thanks everyone for all your help and support.


----------



## pen (Nov 8, 2011)

PM sent.

pen


----------

