# Greenwood boiler problem



## joeski206

Just had the 100 series greenwood boiler installed professionally,  works great , HOWEVER despite the cold outside temps and the fact that it the boiler is running great, EVERY TIME i load the boiler smoke pours out of the front. Dosent matter what I do it still happens. I have it installed in the workshop with a 6" chimney which travels WAY above the code for height, WTF is going on here, there are no clogs in the chimney as it is NEW and there obviously a draft so WHY does it always smoke me out ???


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## Nofossil

joeski206 said:
			
		

> Just had the 100 series greenwood boiler installed professionally,  works great , HOWEVER despite the cold outside temps and the fact that it the boiler is running great, EVERY TIME i load the boiler smoke pours out of the front. Dosent matter what I do it still happens. I have it installed in the workshop with a 6" chimney which travels WAY above the code for height, WTF is going on here, there are no clogs in the chimney as it is NEW and there obviously a draft so WHY does it always smoke me out ???



Is the shop airtight? You could be drawing a vacuum so that the air pressure inside id lower than outside. Try opening a window or door before you open the boiler door.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

I too have a GW 100, installed last winter so let me make a couple of observations:

1) 6" stack? Mine is 8" metalbestos.

2) Please tell me you didn't install the GW inside . . . they say it's designed for that, but, leave it outside in a shed or something.

Ok, a couple of questions:

1) Are you letting the load burn down all the way to coals? and
2) Are you waiting until the flap is open and will remain open the whole time the load door is open? and lastly
3) Are you opening the door ONCE, filling the stove, closing the door, and LEAVING it closed?

Jimbo


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## joeski206

The boiler is installed inside my workshop, its SUPPOSED to be an indoor boiler!  I had one back in the late 80's in my basement of a raised ranch and never had a smoke problem.  The chimney is 6" which is what GREENWOOD said would work.  MY workshop is not airtight by any means the house is era 1840.  It does not seem to matter that the "vent" is open in the back , sure the fire is all the way down to coals and venting great, however when I go to fill it as soon as the 1st log hits the coals the smoke pours out the front door and yes the vent is open, its not until i close it that it decides the chimney is the best route. The whole thing was professionally installed including the chimney which goes directly out the wall and straight up so thats not the problem.  Im going to install a draft inducer that I will control with a switch and hope that does it. My in law apt is directly above the workshop and the smoke is wrecking it.  After almost $12,000 to put this thing in im not happy, this smoke issue has to stop, dont know what else to do after i try the Draft inducer.


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## Nofossil

I don't know the Greenwood, but a 6" chimney seems minimal for a wood furnace / boiler. Assuming that's not easy to change, I can think of only a few options:

1) Try opening a door or window. Open the door on the Greenwood slowly to let the airflow up the chimney build up speed.

2) Draft inducer as you've suggested. I have no experience with them

3) Exhaust hood - I had a cranky old wood furnace that smoked, and I build an exhaust hood just above the door with ducting and a high-velocity fan blowing outside. Crude but effective. Mine was just a bit wider than the door, mounted 2" above the top of the door, and only about 5" front-to-back. I ducted it with 5" galvanized stovepipe out through a panel that replaced a basement windowpane. With a little more cleverness than I had at the time, it could act as a cold air supply to the boiler as well.


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## joeski206

Greenwood specs suggested a 6" chimney.  I am familiar with boiler operations and all the little tricks and nuances associated with operationg one.  If i bought a new car i wouldn't expect to have to stop every 100 miles and tighten the lugnuts, or glue them on. The idea of adding an exaust hood while it would work is still a jerry rig way of solving the smoke issue that once again shouldn't even exist. I dont expect zero smoke, thats unreasonable, but i dont believe fogging up the damn house every time i load it is acceptable.  This boiler is advertised and touted as an indoor boiler.  My old boiler from the 1980's never smoked me out of the house. That was even prior to hydronic and gasification technology.  After $12,000 to buy and have this boiler installed i shouldn't have to keep buying attic fans and draft inducers to stop the thing from smoking, not to mention the added costs and time i spend installing these items, the damn thing should work  considering it was installed exactly as specs indicated.  next move is to install the draft inducer to a switch and hope it sucks the smoke up the chimney instead of pouring out the front door.  If that doesn't do it i don't know what else to try, i feel sorry for the company who sold me the boiler because it needs to work and I've added enough extras on my dime to solve the problem.  I could understand if i was new to running one but i have had had them and been around enough to understand how to operate on properly.  I hope the inducer does the trick, for greenwoods sake.  Like i said it works great and burns every ounce of wood cleanly and my home is warm as hell with scalding hot domestic water and NO OIL CONSUMPTION , but the smoke issue ????  we will see.    Any other suggestions are GREATLY appreciated.


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## antknee2

I discovered that there times in the burning cycle of my Seton boiler [ Greenwood's father ] where you don't even want to think about opening that big door .What I do is make two big burns a day and let the boiler burn out completely in-between. I also added a extra 4' on to the chimney it is now 23' tall 8'' dia. PS I do have a inlie variable speed draft inducer at the base of chimney , it helps allot even when cleaning ash , almost no soot in my face


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## Eric Johnson

A Seton. How cool is that? Welcome to the Boiler Room, Anthony D.

I've read about Setons. If their website is to be believed, Seton is the granddaddy of all gasification in this country, especially the (now defunt) Black Bear and the Adobe, plus probably the Blue Forge as well.

Great to have you aboard. Please tell us some more about your setup.


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## antknee2

What I have is a  seton w-130 in separate bay of my garage about 130' from my house .The bay has a homemade 3500 gallon endless pool in it , heated with a special flat plate heat exchanger only 7 plates. The big Seton has much more output than unusually need so it feeds thee Super Store 119 gallon indirect stainless tanks continuously.The system prioritizes the main house by sending the hottest water to the boiler first then back to the tanks. The system is purely experimental and is controlled by many aqua-stats. This will be my first winter with this system , I plan on swimming allot {free heat after pay back about 1200$ }.No problem with wood supply .


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## WRVERMONT

Eric,  Do you have any smoking issues of any type associated with your Eko 60.   I would be interested in any observations you may have made concerning smoke.  I seem to be getting a very little smoke out the gasification door of my Eko Boiler.  Thanks


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## Eric Johnson

I get smoke out the main loading door when I open it and there's unburned wood in there. I also get smoke out of the gasification door when I open it before gasification has been achieved. And I have really good draft.

Other photos I've seen of other EKOs and other brands online suggest that it's part of the game. That's one reason I've grown so fond of having my boiler out in the barn.

But to answer your question, I think it's a matter of timing and becoming more familiar with the equipment. I usually consider a year about minimum for learning how to operate anything remotely complex with any confidence that I can predict what will happen with any accuracy.

If you're getting smoke with the door closed, then it's probably an issue with the gasket seal or the door fit. When mine isn't not gasifying completely, I tend to get some smell in the boiler room indicating that it's backing up into the space. If the boiler was in the basement instead of out in the barn, I might be more concerned about it. But since it's not, I can't really say whether it would be a problem or not.


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## antknee2

Sorry what I meant to say was free heat after a pay back of around $12000 not including my labor . But the way I feel it's concept of getting so much energy out old trees that have blown down over the years . The woods around my house are looking allot better these days.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

Right off the bat, let me state that my opinion of the GW company is rather low. To them, customer service means this annoying guy called Mr. Barber calling you to see if everything is okay. When it's not, he knows basically nothing technical, and has to have someone else get back to you. The 'someone else' is running around putting out fires - pun intended - with all the other people having problems.

My problem with the furnace itself is that the combustion chamber cracks to heck and will probably disintegrate before I make my money back.

Now having gotten that all off my chest, I would recommend you do as I did, and cut the cord with the company. That alleviates the frustration of dealing with them, and forces you to solve the problems that come up.

When I had my GW 100 installed, I was experienced with old woodstoves, but not furnaces. My first year was frustrating, but you are experienced. So the next things I will say are going to sound simplistic, but I must say them.

1) Saying something is designed for inside use is just sales puffery. GW has probably also told you that the refractory material will support 48 hour re-ignition too. Do you believe that? Don't.

2) My first year my wife used to complain because I smelled like smoke all the time. The front of the GW had this thick scaly black soot on it. This year, no such problem so far. What did I do different?
a)Do not open the feed door until 1-the draft flap is open, and 2- the water temp is down to 160 (assuming you are still running the aquastat at 180). These two measures will ensure a coals only fire.
b) Use Reasonable dry hardwood that doesn't ignite immediately. Red Oak, ash or apple. White birch and softwoods will ignite before you can get the feed door closed.
c) Have your load sitting on the floor ready to load. Load all at once and do not open the door again until the next feed cycle (8 hours if it's cold out - wait. . .you didn't believe GW when they said 12 hours, did you?)

Things {possibly} NOT to do -
The aforementioned Mr Barber told me to get a draft inducing fan . . . I immediately bought one (insert the sound of GW sucking more cash outa my wallet) but it never warmed up outside enough for me to justify installing it. I was gonna do it all summer and never did. I have unscientifically decided I don't need it.

Question for you . . . you say you had it professionally installed . . . did this professional measure the draft? let the measurement tell you if you need the fan, not a salesman.

Before you reject the idea of a hood and fan . . . think about the smoke path . . . it's not like it has a direct, constantly ascending trip from the combustion chamber to the atmosphere. . . . I think it's the "Alternate Energy" furnace that actually comes with a hood and fan. Yes, I still wish I'd bought that furnace instead of the GW, but no point in crying over spilled beer now.

Seriously though . . . if you are only opening the feed door three times a day, and for say, 30 seconds, how can you get enough smoke into the room to cause a problem that even an opened window and fan can't handle?

And my 2-cents worth . . . seriously consider moving the GW outside befor next winter.

Jimbo


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## rsnider

Interesting to hear the operation on the GW boiler.I am considering this design but i like the seton and the adobe models. i too did not like the GW rep i talked to it seemed i knew more about the boiler than him.I have been researching owb and gasifire for about a year or so and like simplicity of the GW design. If the power would go out it would seem to still work with limited amount of power to heat my house "one or two pumps" since i have radiant floor heat. do you think the adobe "gasifire" boiler has a better design with the induced draft and bypass for start up or filling? it seems that the fan on the exhaust would do well for the smoke problem you would just turn it on for loading or starting a new fire. I hope you can figure the smoke problem out smoke in the face everyday is not a good thing. 

good luck.


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## Eric Johnson

Since you're in the market for an outdoor gasifier, rsnider, check out the Blue Forge. I think the design is similar to the Seton. Adobe hasn't been on the market for long, so you takes your chances. I guess the same could be said for the Forge.

Based on what I've read in this forum so far, I'd think twice before getting a Greenwood.

New Horizon sells an outdoor version of their new BioMax--complete with a hot water storage tank.


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## antknee2

Wondering if what Fred Seton said about the casting of the refractory on Greenwood's is true , he said it is cast in one piece. Or is it five separate castings set into boiler like the Seton he sells.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

Actually, my GW100 combustion chamber is in about 20 pieces. Not sure at what point all the cracks let in air and just burn up my wood. The first time I complained of cracks, they sent me free patch. Suppose I should email them for more . . . . what I really want though is material to build a ramp out of that will keep the chunks and coals moving to the back (air inlet) so that I can get a couple extra hours of heat.

But to answer your question . . . I think it is correct to say the GW is cast in one-piece. I can't verify it at the moment as the inside of the box is somewhere north of 1,000 deg :lol:   Though . . . if it gets any warmer here in NY, I may go back to just burning one load of dimensional lumber in the evening for the next day's DHW needs.

Oh, BTW . . .is Seton saying anything more about a co-gen unit as an add-on to his unit? If I could get that  . . .

Jimbo


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## rsnider

The co-gen is not on his website. that thing would be cool to have.


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## antknee2

Thanks for the info on the Greenwood refractory design . I called Fred a couple week ago , he said it's still on lathe . What it will be is flash steam turbine that will turn a 1000 watt generator and some how integrate into the Seton boiler . Anthony


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## joeski206

Well all the advice and experience is appreciated. I thought i did my homework and research well enough.  I wont blacklist the greenwood just yet because I have heard horror stories from other manufacturers as well. Here in Maine there are a lot of boilers. This winter will be a test for sure and i believe the draft inducer should do the trick. greenwood does come with a 10 or was it 20 year firebox warranty so we will see how it holds up, I have been running it for a month straight now and all seems well.


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## rsnider

does the GW have an ash pan or opening other than the fill door?


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

No means of ash removal, which was one reason I almost bought the 'Wood Gun'

If run 'properly', the GW doesn't need much ash removal. However, If you continually burn wet wood, and constantly keep the chamber full instead of letting it burn down, the ash will build up and compact. Then 'bricks' of ash will be found at the back of the box. This is a problem if not removed, since this will decrease the distance from the floor to the air inlets. But a sod shovel works great to remove these 'bricks' quite easily if this becomes an issue.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

joeski206 said:
			
		

> greenwood does come with a 10 or was it 20 year firebox warranty so we will see how it holds up



Did you actually send the warrently in? Are you aware that putting wood in North/South voids the warrenty?


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## rsnider

do you think the GW burns well with just the natural draft? other than the refractory crack and the smoke problem is there anything else? do you have water storage? and if not do you need it? thanks in advance     ryan.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

rsnider said:
			
		

> do you think the GW burns well with just the natural draft? other than the refractory crack and the smoke problem is there anything else? do you have water storage? and if not do you need it? thanks in advance     ryan.



I've never experianced forced draft, so I have nothing to compare the GW to. I believe the simplicity of the draft control (either open or shut, no in-between) is a plus, Until you want to go control-crazy, like me.

For me, the smoke is not a problem, since I installed the GW outside. One thing I am going to do though is put an override switch in to force the draft open when I want to fill the stove. An obvious hasle with having the GW outside is having to go out to see if the draft is open. Opening the door with the draft closed WILL result in smoke, especially if there is unspent fuel in the box.

Hmmm . . .water storage. The NEED for water storage was one of two reason I didn't buy a TARM (though I was stupid enough to send them a $500 deposit :coolgrin: ) GW will tell you that because of the sheer mass of the refractory material, you don't need water storage. I want water storage mostly for DHW. Currently the GW goes into a 20 plate HX to my Viessmann, which then goes into a coil HX in the accompanying Viessmann DHW tank. The multiplicity of HX just HAS to be inefficient. I plan to go with a 160 gal tank with two coils. I hope to then start installing solar panels to heat the tank when possible, and fire the GW to suppliment during cloudy periods. 

Unscientific observation here . . . I think concrete makes beter storage. I have tubes in my attached garage, plus my basement slab. Thats like 1,800 [] out of a toal 4,000. Getting those slabs warmed up puts a hurtin on the boiler, but once they are, they radiate for quite a while. But since you can heat water much hotter than the concrete, maybe it all evens out.

The one draw back with water storage is that the standby losses for my 50 gal DHW tank are unacceptable . . . not sure how I am going to handle the standby losses on 160 gal . . .


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## rsnider

I will have the same setup as you with basement, garage slab radiant, dhw and forced air all heated with a boiler that i don't have yet. i have a new home ranch with walk out basement. everthing is set up for boiler but didnt have the $$ for it this winter. i to don't want to use water storage and that's why i like the GW design. my brother in law has the same setup but with an owb and it does great but does smoke allot and did burn allot of wood. now that he insulated his basement walls it runs even less "in the off cycle" = more idle = more smoke. he lives next to me and it doesn't bother me but its not mine. i do not want all that smoke and wasted btu's. does your GW idle allot and when it does how does it smoke in that stage? i do understand that it has to smoke some but does it really hold the heat in the refractory enough to start up cleaner like advertised? the seton boiler website says something like no smoke or creosote is that true just in the time you have used yours even in idle. the GW and Seton are identical in almost every way and seton even says he showed Gw how to build it. GW seems to be a bigger company selling more units than adobe, seton and black bear (out of buss.). thank for all the good info.
ryan


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

Well . . . if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have spent all the money on about the most expensive inside boiler, then turned around and pay alot for the GW. The GW produces enough (and I should say, at 4,000 [] and the GW-100, I am pushing the limits with the small hydronic furnace). Of course, some of my Viessmann cost was the TekMar mixing valve, and that would have still been needed for the GW with pex radient. Putting the GW inside sounds great, but I am so glad I didn't do it. My house is new (read - white walls) and ANY smoke in the house is acceptable. Any manufacturer and/or sales person that tells you that you can open a feed door and NO smoke will enter the room is an idiot. . .or he thinks you are ;-) 

I'm a huge fan of keeping the fire, wood, and any smoke OUTSIDE . . .but I have 13 acres and all of my neighbors have either a woodstove or a fireplace. If your neighbors are close, I don't think wood makes sense, no matter who the manufacturer is.

Now, you asked me to quatify the smoke . . .not an easy task.

Under perfect conditions, I doubt anyone smokes less than I. But I burn any wood, and try to match the wood to the weather. Even oak will make white 'smoke' when it's been on the forest floor absorbing some water. Once you control the quality of the wood, the next most important thing is to 

Let the fire burn down to coals, then reload fully. Any water will blow out the stack for a while, but I simply refuse to think of white 'smoke' as smoke. . .it's mostly water condensing in the cool air as it leaves the stack. I have never seen the GW smoke from over fueling/under aspirating when using chunk wood. It WILL smoke if loaded with dimensional lumber. 

Now, about 'idling'. Once the box and all the wood in it is hot, the stack will barely wisp when the draft closes. When the draft opens after a long idle, I would still say very little smoke. The problem I had the first winter was that I was buring too much Bass (is there a WORSE wood to try to burn??) and freaking out when my oil burner came on.  I ended up with the air inlets blocked, which will make the GW smoke when it comes off idle because it can't aspirate.

Bu honestly . . . I live in a rural area, and many people have OWB's, especially Central Boiler. When these boilers are run with good wood and no garbage, they don't smoke that bad in my opinion. For the people that groan about the smoke from a wood stack versus an oil one . . . go look at an oil refinery . . . now THAT is smoke.

Somewhere in all this, did I answer your question?

Every burner has problems. The GW is no different.
The problem IMHO with GW is the company, not the product.

Jimbo


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## rsnider

Thanks for the info sounds like a solid unit. I have a heat pump now and it will be my backup after i get my boiler next year. wow cant wait to see my electric bill this winter. this summer the heat pump did well for ac. winter is another story. since im still in the market for a wood boiler im looking all over the place for info other than the companies themselves so thanks for all the help.
ryan


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## Eric Johnson

A couple of observations, r:

You're going to need dry firewood for any gasifier. So if you don't have any wood stocked up, now is the time to start cutting/scrounging/stacking/whatever it takes. Wood cut in the spring probably ain't gonna cut it in a gasifier the following fall. More is always better, but I'd say 5 full cords as a bare minimum.

There are other options. I know you want to stay away from hot water storage, but don't limit your research based on one factor. You might get into it and change your mind. Along those lines, I would suggest checking out New Horizon's website (newhorizoncorp.com) and looking into the Blue Forge. I believe the latter is based on the Seton/Greenwood design. And Garn is another good possibility, since it comes with its own hot water storage.


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## antknee2

I agree about full loads for my medium size Seton boiler . It seems to run super clean and I don't touch it until my storage tanks run down to 120f .


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## joeski206

So far I dont need H/W storage for the greenwood. My oil furnace hi low is set at  120F  and  140F  and it  never kicks on, the domestic hot water is PLENTY hot enough, HOWEVER i will probably add a 60 gal HW storage so i can set the hi/low up to 160F  180F.  But he overall answer to Greenwood needing additional HW storage in my experience is NO it does not, at least so far at my 1840's   built  2000sf home with 5-7 hot showers a day, 2 loads of laundry with hot/warm water. And i leave my thermostat at 72-74 depending on the cold. Its an old home and a little drafty.


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## rsnider

I do have a nice size pile of wood mostly locus about 4 cord. i do agree water storage is probably the way to set up a system. i am looking into the blue forge strongly also. the forge seems really well built but not insulated at all so an outside building I'm putting the boiler in has to have a heated area in it. I've been told that blue forge may come up with a more insulated model so all that heat does not escape out the walls of the unit. another option for me may be the aqua-therm omega it is the same design as the blue forge but totally insulated and can sit outside. question about the seton does it have an ash pan or ash door clean-out? it does sound like the GW or seton would work good for me but for now I'm still looking around. heat storage is not out of the question (wheels are a turn-in).


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## antknee2

Sounds like your timing was perfect , considering home heating oil prices are going through the roof as we write. The storage tanks are great if your home has small random heat loads ,like my house has a separate zone for every room and bathroom . The seton boiler is happiest with full heat loads , which never seem to happen with this system . Anthony


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## rsnider

anthony how much storage do you have? I'm thinking of an old 250 or 300 gallon HW tank the electric company use to use around here. just plumb right into the system with not heat exchangers needed (pressurized system). this tank is already insulated and sealed with liner i believe glass.


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## antknee2

Right now I only have 240 gallons , two 120 gallon Super Store stainless tanks with fined stainless heat exchanges hooked up kind of in series . In my spare time I'm trying to make space and hook up a third tank , they seem to be very well insulated from the factory and lifetime guaranteed .


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> A couple of observations, r:
> 
> You're going to need dry firewood for any gasifier. So if you don't have any wood stocked up, now is the time to start cutting/scrounging/stacking/whatever it takes. Wood cut in the spring probably ain't gonna cut it in a gasifier the following fall.



Supposedly the GW is a gasifier . . . and I know I will catch a bunch of crap for this, but. . .the whole term 'gasification' is somewhat suspect. I think to many people it means a second combustion chamber and forced induction. I'll let that whole argument rage without me. Anyway.

I am getting a little reaffirmation on owning the GW now. I didn't buy TARM because of the dry/small wood issue. Yes, the GW works better and better the better the wood gets. But. I have found if you have punky wood, place that in a layer directly on the coals, then a layer of good stuff (in my case, red oak tops which were cut before 2002 and have been laying in the woods untouched since then) then lastly any wood that is 'wet'. Now by wet I mean from the outside in, not 'green'. As long as the wet wood is up off the fire, the GW will blow that moisture out. Yes, this creates white 'smoke'. Yes, this is less efficient, since some BTUs are being used to boil the water and turn it to steam. 

As Jim at TARM told me, "If yer woods not perfect, burn oil this year" What the heck good is THAT?!?!??

Jimbo


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## Eric Johnson

I think forced secondary combustion is a more accurate description. But it doesn't have the sex appeal that "gasification" does.

It shouldn't be too hard to insulate a Blue Forge, I wouldn't think. Doing it so that it looked good would be a challenge for a crappy carpenter like me, however.

It's nice to have a boiler that will burn wet or green wood when necessary. I'll take the hit on efficiency if it means not buying any oil and cutting more wood. Nofossil says you can burn less-than-dry wood in an EKO once you get it going. I don't have any wet wood so I can't verify that, but if he says it, that's good enough for me.

Another option for pressurized storage is an old propane tank. They say you should expect to pay a dollar a gallon. In retrospect, it probably would have been cheaper, easier and a lot less challenging for me to go that route. Well, maybe getting two 500 gallon propane tanks into my basement would have been a challenge. Can I park 'em out in the back yard if I paint smilies on them, honey? Or maybe outfit them to look like little submarines? We can start a minature golf course.


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## rsnider

I know i could make the blue forge look good but for the money you think it would have better insulation than foilbubble wrap they give to their customers.still the blue forge does look impressive to me and on my list. the garn is the same way with no insulation for the outside of the boiler and that salesman said you must insulate it or that room would be way to hot to be in to load wood. man i'm complaining alot for what i don't have yet. back to the GW im glad to hear that it does do well in operation.


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## antknee2

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Actually, my GW combustion chamber is in about 20 pieces. Not sure at what point all the cracks let in air and just burn up my wood. The first time I complained of cracks, they sent me free patch. Suppose I should email them for more . . . . what I really want though is material to build a ramp out of that will keep the chunks and coals moving to the back (air inlet) so that I can get a couple extra hours of heat.
> 
> But to answer your question . . . I think it is correct to say the GW is cast in one-piece. I can't verify it at the moment as the inside of the box is somewhere north of 1,000 deg :lol:   Though . . . if it gets any warmer here in NY, I may go back to just burning one load of dimensional lumber in the evening for the next day's DHW needs.
> 
> Oh, BTW . . .is Seton saying anything more about a co-gen unit as an add-on to his unit? If I could get that  . . .
> 
> Jimbo


I recall reading in the Greenwood operating instructions that it is very important to bring the boiler and it's 2000 pounds of refractory cement up to temperature slowly , when the boiler is stone cold. It is very easy to create thermal shock to casting or castings . They say build a small fire first , wait half an hour then go crazy and build your dream fire . One off the big drawbacks to a boiler with so much thermal mass . Also the good news is cracks in the refractory will not cause air leaks and excess wood usage ,the outer skin creates a airtight chamber . Good luck Anthony


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## Eric Johnson

I've noticed just with the relatively small amount of refractory mass in my boiler, that it's funny stuff. It takes its time getting up to temp but once it does, it seems to do magical things. I can imagine that working with a huge refractory mass would be quite a bit different than working with water. Under the right conditions, I bet it has some distinct advantages, though an intelligently-engineered combination of the two is probably the way to go.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

Hey Joe?!!

Did you install the draft fan yet? If so, comments??

Seems to me (just call me Mr ControlFreak :bug: ) that the damper needs an override switch to force it open, and not allow the draft fan to run unless the damper is fully open.

Jimbo


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## antknee2

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I've noticed just with the relatively small amount of refractory mass in my boiler, that it's funny stuff. It takes its time getting up to temp but once it does, it seems to do magical things. I can imagine that working with a huge refractory mass would be quite a bit different than working with water. Under the right conditions, I bet it has some distinct advantages, though an intelligently-engineered combination of the two is probably the way to go.



Hi Eric Some nights when I open the massive feed door to roll in a couple all-nighters , the heat will take your face off if you not prepared .I have to duct down below the door level and use heavy duty welders gloves . The things we do to heat our houses !! The refractory in your boiler must be extra heavy duty .


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## PowerView

Anthony D said:
			
		

> ISeeDeadBTUs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, my GW combustion chamber is in about 20 pieces. Not sure at what point all the cracks let in air and just burn up my wood. The first time I complained of cracks, they sent me free patch. Suppose I should email them for more . . . . what I really want though is material to build a ramp out of that will keep the chunks and coals moving to the back (air inlet) so that I can get a couple extra hours of heat.
> 
> But to answer your question . . . I think it is correct to say the GW is cast in one-piece. I can't verify it at the moment as the inside of the box is somewhere north of 1,000 deg :lol:   Though . . . if it gets any warmer here in NY, I may go back to just burning one load of dimensional lumber in the evening for the next day's DHW needs.
> 
> Oh, BTW . . .is Seton saying anything more about a co-gen unit as an add-on to his unit? If I could get that  . . .
> 
> Jimbo
> 
> 
> 
> I recall reading in the Greenwood operating instructions that it is very important to bring the boiler and it's 2000 pounds of refractory cement up to temperature slowly , when the boiler is stone cold. It is very easy to create thermal shock to casting or castings . They say build a small fire first , wait half an hour then go crazy and build your dream fire . One off the big drawbacks to a boiler with so much thermal mass . Also the good news is cracks in the refractory will not cause air leaks and excess wood usage ,the outer skin creates a airtight chamber . Good luck Anthony
Click to expand...


I installed my GW 100 in October (15) and have just gotten my first crack that is about 1/8" wide running from the door, around the left hand side and 3/4 of the way back the ceramic box.  Actually, I did not expect cracks at all, maybe I am just naive.  I roll my logs in (east west).  

What I am gathering is that these cracks are normal AND that it is ok for them to be there.  Would that be your assessment?

Park


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

I'm no pro at firebox engineering but, I know I'd be happier if my combustion chamber wasn't cracked the way it is. What would be naive would be to expect that ole Mr Barber would acknowledge the problem and ship either you or I a new box. Though I don't know the first thing abought thermal dynamics nor heat transfer, I think the ceramic could be encased in 3/16" steel.

I find it curious that, though GW takes great pains to make sure we load these things east-west, it doesn't seem to be the back of the box that cracks.

As far as I can discern, my GW works as designed despite the cracks. But the company still sucks in my book.

Jimbo


----------



## PowerView

Well, Greenwood did exactly as you said.  They are sending 'firebox mortar'.  I can let the fire go out and cool, clean and mortar.  They said that I could fire it back up again pretty much right away.

I, like you, am concerned that this is not correct behavior for a ceramic fire box.  However, they are not answering the telephone today for some reason.  

Thanks for your feedback.

Park


----------



## antknee2

PowerView said:
			
		

> Well, Greenwood did exactly as you said.  They are sending 'firebox mortar'.  I can let the fire go out and cool, clean and mortar.  They said that I could fire it back up again pretty much right away.
> 
> I, like you, am concerned that this is not correct behavior for a ceramic fire box.  However, they are not answering the telephone today for some reason.
> 
> Thanks for your feedback.
> 
> Park


I studied the Seton boiler which is basically the same design , the good news is cracks in the refractory will not effect the air tightness of your boiler . With or without cracks your Greenwood will last forever and produce tons of hot water , just keep on rolling in big un-split logs ,they burn at just the right rate and will not cause as much thermal shock to the refractory fire box . Try to limit the number of small splits , they have too much wood surface area and burn way to hot . I have a massive crack in the refractory right below the loading door , I used high temperature refractory cement in the Spring and it seems to be holding up . Anthony


----------



## td182a

I sure wish I'd found this site when I was doing my due diligence on boilers. I just bought and installed a Greenwood, and since it's advertised as suitable for indoor installation, I put it downstairs till next summer when I intend to move it outdoors. Spent a day plumbing it in with a dhw heat exchanger, plumbed it in to an existing oil fired boiler. Lit the fire as they said (small one first), got it up to temp, and WOW, here comes the smoke!! Got pretty hazy in the house for a while! Pi--ed me right off. I have now learned what others in this post have said, don't listen to the advertising!! Wood fired boilers go outside! As others have mentioned, it seems to be ok if you wait till just coals left before opening the door, and use the biggest wood possible. After 24 hours operation, I'm feeling a tad better about it. So far I'd wonder about the 'gasification' part of the process, seems to smoke more than our fireplace insert, a Pacific Vista, which I can't say enough good things about.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

A draft inducer in the flue pipe, with a switch to turn it on before you open the door, should handle the smoke issue.

Flip it on, wait ten seconds, then open the door.  The draft inducer should be producing enough "suction" to keep the smoke flowing the right direction.  Just remember to flip it back off before you leave, or it will be over-firing the wood (the damper will still regulate temp, but it will be opening and closing all the time, reducing efficiency).

Joe Brown
Brownian Heating Technology
www.brownianheating.com


----------



## henfruit

i have put a hood over mine that helps a little.i also have a draft in ducer which helps quite a bit.big wood is the way to load it.i got a nine hour burn yesterday on 2 huge logs.my trouble is all the wood i have is cut and spilt to 20 inches that i did two years ago.i have ten cords left.split woods tends to continue to flash even with th damper closed it gets so hot in the fire box.i wish they had a temp gauge in the fire box to tell us how hot it is burning.it will take time to work out the quirks,if mine works out ok it will stay inside? if not joe you know what you will be doing this spring.hope every one in the northeast is enjoying the snow.


----------



## td182a

Thanks for the info Joe, do you have any recommendations on draft inducers? type, size, brand etc?


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

td182a said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info Joe, do you have any recommendations on draft inducers? type, size, brand etc?



Fields is usually pretty good.  I expect a DI-2 would be best for simply creating suction to prevent smoke in the room.  You could even jump to a DI-3, if you wanted, but I don't know that it would be necessary.  Since you won't be leaving it on except when the door is open, having it balanced to the draft needs of the appliance isn't critical.

Joe


----------



## MarcM

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I think forced secondary combustion is a more accurate description. But it doesn't have the sex appeal that "gasification" does.



As much as I hate to disagree with a moderator on my very first post, I'd disagree.  I have a close friend who recently bought a home with a Tarm wood/oil burner and water storage tank.  The design prompted me to read into the subject further as I'll be moving into an older home with a plentiful firewood supply soon and will have to make some choices on heating system upgrades.

At any rate, gasification is an accurate description as any, although in my field it is more commonly referred to as pyrolysis.  That is, the process by which solid carbon/organic fuels liberate combustible gas upon application of the required external heat flux.  This process is endothermic, as it would cease upon removal of the applied heat flux, and is therefore, not a form of oxidation.  No matter what one uses to burn wood, anytime a solid fuel is involved in a combustion reaction, gasification or pyrolysis occurs.  Molecules from solid fuel cannot participate in oxidation reactions when they're still involved with the solid.  When you observe any solid fuel combustion you are observing two separate categories of chemical reaction.  The first is the gasification or pyrolysis which is completely endothermic, the second is the combustion reaction which is exothermic.  The combustion supplies the heat for pyrolysis and the process becomes self sustaining.  

After the fire is built in the fire box in my friend's Tarm, it appeared to me that this process was occuring to the wood in the fire box.  In other words, I saw no glowing, indicating the absence of combustion, however the heat from the ceramic chamber and coal bed below was continuing to gasify or pyrolysize the wood above.  In this case, there is no real secondary combustion occuring, just that the pyrolysis and combustion reactions where physically separated to facilitate the addition of oxygen via the draft fan to lean the fuel/O2 mix out to a point where much more complete combustion can occur.

Well, I love the site so far and hopefully I can learn a lot and contribute a little as well....


----------



## Eric Johnson

Thanks for the clarification, MarcM, and welcome to the Boiler Room.

It pays to remember that the moderator is an expert on nothing. His/her role is to facilitate discussion and generally keep the ball rolling and between the gutters. That has never kept me, specifically, from expressing an uninformed opinion on just about any topic. Corrections, clarifications and outright rebuttals are encouraged.

Anyway, call it what you want, it's a fascinating process and I appreciate your detailed description.

I'm glad you're considering a gasification boiler. Sounds like you're the kind of person who would really enjoy using one. I know I do.


----------



## MarcM

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification, MarcM, and welcome to the Boiler Room.
> 
> It pays to remember that the moderator is an expert on nothing. His/her role is to facilitate discussion and generally keep the ball rolling and between the gutters. That has never kept me, specifically, from expressing an uninformed opinion on just about any topic. Corrections, clarifications and outright rebuttals are encouraged.
> 
> Anyway, call it what you want, it's a fascinating process and I appreciate your detailed description.
> 
> I'm glad you're considering a gasification boiler. Sounds like you're the kind of person who would really enjoy using one. I know I do.



No problem, my comment was kind of tongue in cheek.  I have the typical 3 year seasoned red oak-dry engineer sense of humor.

But I grew up in a house primarily heated by a single Vermont Castings Defiant, so I've been cutting firewood all my life.  When I heard of these boiler inovations and their pairing with heat storage, I just love the possibilities for efficiency and customization!


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

MarcM said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think forced secondary combustion is a more accurate description. But it doesn't have the sex appeal that "gasification" does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As much as I hate to disagree with a moderator on my very first post, I'd disagree.  I have a close friend who recently bought a home with a Tarm wood/oil burner and water storage tank.  The design prompted me to read into the subject further as I'll be moving into an older home with a plentiful firewood supply soon and will have to make some choices on heating system upgrades.
> 
> At any rate, gasification is an accurate description as any, although in my field it is more commonly referred to as pyrolysis.  That is, the process by which solid carbon/organic fuels liberate combustible gas upon application of the required external heat flux.  This process is endothermic, as it would cease upon removal of the applied heat flux, and is therefore, not a form of oxidation.  No matter what one uses to burn wood, anytime a solid fuel is involved in a combustion reaction, gasification or pyrolysis occurs.  Molecules from solid fuel cannot participate in oxidation reactions when they're still involved with the solid.  When you observe any solid fuel combustion you are observing two separate categories of chemical reaction.  The first is the gasification or pyrolysis which is completely endothermic, the second is the combustion reaction which is exothermic.  The combustion supplies the heat for pyrolysis and the process becomes self sustaining.
> 
> After the fire is built in the fire box in my friend's Tarm, it appeared to me that this process was occuring to the wood in the fire box.  In other words, I saw no glowing, indicating the absence of combustion, however the heat from the ceramic chamber and coal bed below was continuing to gasify or pyrolysize the wood above.  In this case, there is no real secondary combustion occuring, just that the pyrolysis and combustion reactions where physically separated to facilitate the addition of oxygen via the draft fan to lean the fuel/O2 mix out to a point where much more complete combustion can occur.
> 
> Well, I love the site so far and hopefully I can learn a lot and contribute a little as well....
Click to expand...


Dude! I already have a headach . . . yo trying to give me an aneurism?!?!! :coolmad:


----------



## MarcM

Fortunately, my engineering starter kit comes equipped with aspirin for such an emergency.  It's usually buried under the slide rule and pocket protector though...  :coolsmile:


----------



## altheating

I had the option to go with Adobe, Greenwood, Eko and the Econoburn dealerships. After looking at the four of them and having sold one Adobe (one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made) I decided to go with the Econoburn Boilers. As the first Econoburn dealer in New York State I can only say good things about the folks at Econoburn. The factory tech guys have been outstanding. Sales leads and dealer support is also great. Mr. Raines has been running Dunkirk Metal Products (The Parent company of Alternative Fuel Boilers) for 50ish years, that says alot about the company.
My EBW-200 uses approximately 2/3 less wood than did my unsheltered 275 Ootdoor Wood Smoker! The choice is not hard to make, it's either the ECONOBURN, Tarm or the Eko. In that order!
I have been using the Econoburn's since mid May for domestic hot water and now for home heating and domestic hot water. I have installed 30+ boilers. They work just like the factory says. When properly sized for the building being heated these units are the cadilacs of wood gasification boilers.

I just found this site, hopefully I will spend much more time here, very interesting.
For more info on the Econoburn Gasification boilers www.altheating.com 315-717-3633, I can handle sales for most of eastern NY to central NY. 

Alternative Heating Solutions
295 Osborne Hill Road
Herkimer NY 13350


----------



## antknee2

Altheating I would like to know what happened with the Adobe boiler to cause such a negative experience ???


----------



## altheating

The boiler is probably the cheapest constructed boiler I have ever seen. The install cd only covered 1/2 the process, which inturn caused the boiler to rot out in 3 months. The manual was four or five pages of copied directions. The factory gave little support to me or the customr. Finally they agreed to replace the outer skins and such. They would not accept a credit card for payment on the parts. They certainly took credit card payment for the initial purchase. Even after the fix was taken care of the stove still drafts through the ash clean out door. I have seen much better boilers created in a home workshop! Even after the fix was taken care of the factory guys said the pipes into the oil boiler were reversed, they were not. The refractory blocks are all cracked. They said he can fix it with refractory cement. I certainly learned from that bad experiance. I simply tell people to call the homeowner and ask him which boiler he would rather have had installed. This customers father actully installed an Econoburn after seeing his sons desaster with the Adobe.
Load an Adobe and you get a face full, no a room full of smoke. I should actully buy that Adobe boiler from him, it sure would make a great marketing tool.


----------



## brad068

altheating,

 What are your thoughts on the Garn boiler?


----------



## altheating

I have not seen or know anyone who has one.


----------



## antknee2

altheating  Thank you for your reply . Sorry to hear about such a bad experience , maybe I was lucky the Adobe boiler dealer took one month to return my phone calls , by then I already purchased a used Seton boiler with lots of problems . Thank You Anthony


----------



## brad068

altheating said:
			
		

> I have not seen or know anyone who has one.



Check out my build pics of a garn principled boiler in the uploaded pics for garnification thread.  In my opinion, after you see and understand the the design and operation of these units you might be adding them as one of your most favorite.  I seen two units over 20 years old and still working.


----------



## jpowell1979

I have been running my Greenwood 100 now for about 3 months and have very few complaints so far.  I did install the draft inducer fan in the stack as Greenwood suggests and it help in starting a new fire and to keep smoke from coming out of the door when loading.  I installed my Greenwood in a detached, insulated shed and have storage for 2 cords of wood so that when it is -40 like it is now, I don't have to be cold when loading the wood.  In my garage I have a temperature gauge so I can look and see when it is time to reload the firebox.  I usualy reload when the temperature drops to 150 or when I hear the furnace kick on at 140 degrees.  If you let it burn down to ashes there is no smoke when you open to door and you have less ash accumulation.  I have only emptied the ashes once and it looks like you can burn at least 1 and 1/2 cords before the ash gets to be a problem.  So far I have no crack in the refreactory, but I expect that they might develope as time goes by.  I have been very carefull about not overfiring when the refractory is cold and have only let the furnace cool down below operating temperature twice so far.  

  I would agree that 12 hour fire times are unrealistic and my rep did not promise this as some reps have.  I can easily burn 8 hours and can usualy know when I will need to reload based upon the outside temperature.  So far I'm 100% satisifed with the product and enjoy listening to my friends complain about their heating bills as #2 heating oil reaches $3.50/g for delivery.  Right now I'm paying about $180/cord for white birch and plan on getting a log truck load of 10 cords this summer to bring my price down to less than $100/cord.  I also wanted to mention that there is very little smoke coming out of the stack.  My neighbors wood stoves seem to smoke more than the Greenwood operating with a full load.  When it was warmer out there was some incomplete combustion but it was as much my fault for overloading the fireboxfor the conditions and causing the fire to smolder with the dampner shut.


----------



## henfruit

i was wondering are uburning all round wood? i have mine in the basment i had to put a hood over it to help with the smoke even with the inducer. i have one crack so far on the side towards the rear. if you have good load of wood in it i will get a 6 to 8 hour burn. how big is your shed and what type of smoke pipe are you useing? how far from the house are you running it? thanks for your help patrick in nh


----------



## jpowell1979

The shed is 10 x 12 and is about 50' from my house.  I ran 1" PEX tubing from the house and had spray urethane insulation applied for insulation of the PEX.  I also got a larger circulation pump than the one that shipped with the boiler and installed a Tekamr dual boiler control with my oil boiler wired as the secondary stage.  I burn only white birch rounds 7-14" in diameter.  The shed is 2x4 construction with insulation.  The smoke stack is 6" single wall metalbestos on the interior and I have 8' of insulated going through the roof and outside.  I bought a draft gauge on ebay and added chimney sections until I got the draft within specifications.  I think it was supposed to be .05-.07" of draft.  If I open the door before the fire is burned down to coals there is some smoke, but I usually wait till the temp is down to less than 140 and there is very little smoke.


----------



## Bartman

Wow! It's a good thing I read these posts about the GW. Tonight I took part in a GW webinar, and was impressed about the unit. Some of the questions though were infact about the loading of wood and flame/smoke exiting through the load door. During this online seminar the pictures of installations on the PowerPoint presentation showed "blackened" doors and surrounding areas. Another question I had about the GW was the durability of the firebox because they specify that the large logs are better. A 16" dia log is pretty heavy to drop into a heated refractory, much less several, I figure it has to crack. I know that my old steel New Yorker is really inefficient, but it only smokes when first started, afterwards the smoke is barely discernable. Cracking is not an issue, an I've abused it for 22 years. While I'm getting ready to make a decision soon to replace the old girl I guess high efficiency comes at a price, not just in initial outlay, it seems that these boilers are rather delicate in comparison to their not so delicate fuel. Right now I think I have enough info in preparation of GW's rep who is supposed to call me tomorrow to answer my questions regarding a 100.


----------



## Eric Johnson

I don't think the EKO is any less durable than my old Royall, and that was one tough (25-year-old) boiler. But I agree with your point about dropping big wood into any boiler. You want to set it in place whenever possible. Nothing worse than tossing a piece in too hard and "ringing the bell." Ouch!

Solid fuel appliances really take a beating compared to their oil and gas counterparts.


----------



## Bartman

I agree they take a beating, and that's what concerns me. Take $8000, buy a new gasifier, load it wrong just once and you have a good chance on ruining your investment. For me it's going to be a big job to replace my NY, not only do I have to get that monster out of the basement, but I have to put a bigger one in it's place. For me, there is no other choice than a basement install. The rep @ GW (Bill) told me that the procedure to load the boiler is to make sure the flap is open, then wait 5-10 seconds before opening the door. On my present unit, since my boiler uses an under fire draft blower, to load, you hit the big red stop button which shuts the blower down, you crack the door for a second, then open and load. When full, close door hit green button, blower starts (unless water is above 165 degrees) and go, simple. Don't want to make it more complicated than that, after all Mrs.G has to use it too.


----------



## Eric Johnson

Well as I said, having owned both, I don't think a gasifier is any less durable than a conventional indoor wood boiler. I did have one fail after 12 years, but I suspect that had more to do with low return water temps than operator error. And believe me, there was plenty of that.


----------



## Bartman

Eric,
 Who sells the EKO around here?


----------



## Eric Johnson

I bought mine from Cozy Heat, the banner at the top of this thread.


----------



## leaddog

Bartman said:
			
		

> Wow! It's a good thing I read these posts about the GW. Tonight I took part in a GW webinar, and was impressed about the unit. Some of the questions though were infact about the loading of wood and flame/smoke exiting through the load door. During this online seminar the pictures of installations on the PowerPoint presentation showed "blackened" doors and surrounding areas. Another question I had about the GW was the durability of the firebox because they specify that the large logs are better. A 16" dia log is pretty heavy to drop into a heated refractory, much less several, I figure it has to crack. I know that my old steel New Yorker is really inefficient, but it only smokes when first started, afterwards the smoke is barely discernable. Cracking is not an issue, an I've abused it for 22 years. While I'm getting ready to make a decision soon to replace the old girl I guess high efficiency comes at a price, not just in initial outlay, it seems that these boilers are rather delicate in comparison to their not so delicate fuel. Right now I think I have enough info in preparation of GW's rep who is supposed to call me tomorrow to answer my questions regarding a 100.



On the eko you load the wood length wise. You have some coals on the bottem covering the fire brick so it would be hard to break the fire brick. The nozzels are replaceable and not very expensive. You are more apt to damage the nozzels with a poker when you stir the coals and that would be hard to do if you are careful. The sides are steel. the fire brick is only on the bottem and up the sides a small ways as that is only where the gasification and burning takes place before the gas is forced down into the secondary chamber. I have the eko80 that has a 40in long chamber so I can put over 3ft long pieces in and if they are big they are heavy.  The only long pieces that I put in are 6in and under as the big stuff I cut 16in and split as they are easyer to handle. I cut all the small limbs 3ft as that makes them easy to handle and less work cuting, one cut instead of two and one piece to pick up.
leaddog


----------



## Bartman

It looks like I might be interested in the small EKO 18, I don't know if it's available here in the US, I'll be calling Cozy Heat soon.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

I think the big difference between the EKO (or any other forced-induction hydronic units) and the GW (or any other naturally aspirated refractory units) is that the GW is probably better at burning 'less-than-ideal' wood. But the better wood in concert with the forced induction probably makes the ELO a more efficient unit.

I doubt you could find worse customer service than GW though :shut: 

Instal the GW outside finished area and the smoke issue becomes a non-issue. The cracks in the refractory are annoying, but probably not a deal-breaker. With no grate, ash remove becomes an issue. Yes, if you let it burn way down, the ash is very minimal. However, the last few hours of a burn cycle left that long will produce minimal heat, so without storage, that becomes a problem.

Jimbo


----------



## sparky1961

joeski206 said:
			
		

> Just had the 100 series greenwood boiler installed professionally,  works great , HOWEVER despite the cold outside temps and the fact that it the boiler is running great, EVERY TIME i load the boiler smoke pours out of the front. Dosent matter what I do it still happens. I have it installed in the workshop with a 6" chimney which travels WAY above the code for height, WTF is going on here, there are no clogs in the chimney as it is NEW and there obviously a draft so WHY does it always smoke me out ???


----------



## sparky1961

The draft is very important on this type of wood boiler so that u don't get smoked out. The draft needs to be a .06to .07 for the boiler to funtion properly u can check it with a draft meter


----------



## Eric Johnson

Welcome to the Boiler Room, sparky. I expect that ISDBTU or one of the other Greenwood boiler owners will be happy to share their fuel loading techniques and tips with you.

I get a face full of smoke from my EKO if I open it at the wrong point in the burn cycle. A lot of this involves learning the limitations of your equipment and working around them.


----------



## jebatty

No comment on the Greenwood, as my first and only experience is with Tarm. With 3+ months of experience, satisfaction is at least 90%, and I think time and more experience will raise that. The Boiler Room has been superb in solving the early issues and solutions were endorsed by Tarm, which independently also has been very helpful. Thanks to everyone. 

Indoor installation on the Tarm, albeit a little drafty (plenty of air available) in the workshop. No smoke issue, even with fire in full burn. Just cut the draft fan, open the bypass damper, and open the primary burn door slowly. Dry wood, small wood, also not an issue. I burn pine, which is shorter on the burn cycle as a less dense wood, but practically no ash, no creosote in the stack, and about as complete a burn as I can imagine. Honestly, I could not have imagined before so much heat from so little wood.

Comment from CT/MA/RI border on pyrolysis I think just answered another question I had. On initial and into burn secondary combustion/gassification roars; as the burn continues practically no visible combustion/gassification through the sight glass, yet stack temperature stays right about were it was before (425-475). I assume this is pyrolysis at its zenith.

The only issue, and I'm not really sure it is an issue, is that sometimes the primary burn load collapses on the nozzle and seems to block it. I assume this happens also when I am not around to observe, so I also assume combustion continues until the nozzle is cleared sufficiently, because every full burn is complete and no evidence of burn problems in the stack, refractory, or otherwise. Further insight on this would be appreciated.


----------



## henfruit

i get smoke also when loading, i have to try to load it real quick before the the new load catches. i have a draft inducer on mine that will give me .12 wc of draft. i have built a hood over it that vents out side. it does help a bit. my other problem is all my wood that i had left over from my wood stove is all split and 20 inches long, i wii have to get round wood for next year. i may even move it to an out building to end the smoke. has any one that has a green wood or seton ever had or tried to clean the water pipes inside the boiler? temp is so warm here today upper 50s i have had to let it burn out. give me a good time to do some cleaning out.


----------



## Bartman

Would it help, or can yo even do it, kill power to the unit when loading? Would that make a difference?


----------



## antknee2

sparky1961 said:
			
		

> joeski206 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just had the 100 series greenwood boiler installed professionally,  works great , HOWEVER despite the cold outside temps and the fact that it the boiler is running great, EVERY TIME i load the boiler smoke pours out of the front. Dosent matter what I do it still happens. I have it installed in the workshop with a 6" chimney which travels WAY above the code for height, WTF is going on here, there are no clogs in the chimney as it is NEW and there obviously a draft so WHY does it always smoke me out ???
Click to expand...


I have the same problem with the Seton boiler which is the same principle as a Greenwood boiler . Even with my garage door open after loading for a few minutes the walls are starting to look nasty!!


----------



## antknee2

henfruit said:
			
		

> i get smoke also when loading, i have to try to load it real quick before the the new load catches. i have a draft inducer on mine that will give me .12 wc of draft. i have built a hood over it that vents out side. it does help a bit. my other problem is all my wood that i had left over from my wood stove is all split and 20 inches long, i wii have to get round wood for next year. i may even move it to an out building to end the smoke. has any one that has a green wood or seton ever had or tried to clean the water pipes inside the boiler? temp is so warm here today upper 50s i have had to let it burn out. give me a good time to do some cleaning out.



Very cool you mentioned cleaning the heat exchanger tubes , I bit the bullet an cut the heavy galvanized outer skin on the left side of the boiler towards the back and cut through the 2'' high density insulation to have perfect access to the back side of the tubes , what a mess back there , the brush I used is about 4' long . Also much lower stack temp , lower wood consumption. Anthony.


----------



## Bartman

Even though my boiler isn't the latest and greatest, it still seems to have some similar quirks, although probably not as bad. If I were to have bought a new boiler and the front got toasty, I would be having a canary. Lately I have been tossing around buying a new boiler, but for me, there are more logistical problems that have to be ironed out first. So for now I'll live with the old girl and make her pretty..  with a new paint job, she's gonna be yellow now, but if it gets burnt I'll be ticked off. When loading mine, you hit the "stop" button, get a "green" light to open loading door, in theory that was to prevent a "smoke out" or flame out the door. The scenario worked somewhat, I've learned over the years to crack the door slowly, let the fire suck in some air and flame/smoke will stay put, (for a little while). But sometimes I'm too impatient or just not thinking and I get it to billow a bit.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

Actually, the fact that it is 50ish out does not require ceasing burning. . . just very careful loading. Someone said kill the power to prevent smoke?? I doubt that would help, since that would close the damper. Waiting till the fire is down to a coal bed, then loading with something dry and barkless on that bed is best. Any birch should go on the next tier up. And get loaded and get the dayum door closed already!! Then leave it for 8 hours (or less if it's below zero out; more like 12 hours when its this warm out) and the smoke shouldn't be an issue.

This all assumes you don't have the GW in finished space, No! Wait!! Don't tell me you believed some salesman?? :lol:


----------



## td182a

I have had a Greenwood 100 running for about 2 months now. Does anyone out there have a problem with creosote with the Greenwood? I have all types; liquid, goo, crystallized, etc, emanating from mine, from the loading door, chimney outlet box, chimney, stuck on the water tubes, you name it; its there. I gave it a good cleaning the other day, there is about 3/4 inch solid creosote in the bottom of the chimeny outlet area. No way to get it out without removing the back end.

I have installed a draft inducer (linked to on their website), now I think I have  a hotter fire and was hoping to eliminate the creosote, but no such luck. It drips out the bottom of the chimney, and runs down the damper door when it's closed. 

I have tried for help from the factory, and in all fairness a gentleman did call back one day, we played telephone tag but he's been 'it' for awhile now but hasn't called back. So other than having a nice chat with Nancy, I can't get any info. Some questions I want to ask, the book says 6 in chimney Minimum. The exhaust outlet is 8 inch, my thimble is 8 inch, so I put in an 8 in chimney. Could this be my problem? And if it is, and I'm not getting enough draft, wouldn't the draft inducer fix it?  Would the extra chimney size increase or decrease the draft? I have about 6 ft of 8 inch black pipe with 2 ninties into an 8 inch thimble into a 7X11 masonary chimney inside the house.

One last question, if I purchase a draft meter, which is the best one and where can I get it?

Thanks for any help, this site is a wealth of info.


----------



## td182a

An addition to the above post, after installing the draft inducer and only loading wood when the draft in open and inducer running ( the inducer is wired into the draft door circuit), I now have a negligible smoke problem when loading.


----------



## Eric Johnson

How dry is your wood, td182a?


----------



## henfruit

yes mine is in the house. bad decision i know. i really think theses need to burn straight out to get the best performance. water storage would be nice.


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## Bartman

When I purchase a gasifier, it has to go in my basement boileroom, no exceptions. It's amazing all the different stories and reports on the various brands, I really need to see these in action before buying.


----------



## sparky1961

how hi is your water temp set at . Also large unsplit wood works really well . u also need .06 to .07 draft that is very important to for the boiler to operate properly.


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

Mine is all 8". Though I ordered the draft inducer, I never installed it. As far as creosote, in 8" it shouldn't be a big deal. Yes, the beast will 'leak' goo, but since it's in a shed, so what?


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## kuribo

If there is creosote or any other "goo", the unit is not gasifying and you are not getting complete, efficient combustion...


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

kuribo said:
			
		

> If there is creosote or any other "goo", the unit is not gasifying and you are not getting complete, efficient combustion...



You say that so authoritativly . . .like yer an engineer or work for GW. Either??

The 'goo' I believe is a mix of water (from the fuel and/or refractory material) combined with 'soot'. So, since I'm NOT an engineer, I'm going to feel free to talk like a 'dummied-down' one. The 'goo' is unburned fuel and water. You think that means the unit is not 'gassifying' and the combustion is 'not efficient'?? Where exactly do you place 'not efficient'? 60%? 75%? 85%??

Jimbo


----------



## henfruit

sparky, i think my high temp is at 185 and the low is at 165. with out the inducer on  i pull.05 wc really not enough. if i wired my inducer to the damper circut i know then i would have more then enough draft when it is gaseifing.maybe to much? i have 6" into 7x11 brick tile chimeny that 30 ft. tall outside wall faceing due north wide open towards mt. washington, also 2 90s.


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## kuribo

Actually, I am an engineer...but that doesn't mean I know everything, surely!

What I do know is that when a gasifier is operating correctly, there is very little ash left over when the fuel has been burned. I also know that water should not be in the liquid state- if it is, temperatures are too low and the water vapor that is suppose to go out the flue is condensing inside the flue. This is not good. Also, there should not be any water coming out the refractory after the unit is broken in....

I also know that if there is "goo" it means that the volatile gases burned in the gasification process are not being burned, therefore gasification is not happening. "Goo" is unburned fuel thus waste; the process is not operating efficiently.

The benefits of gasification are near complete combustion at very high temperatures which eliminates the creosote, tars, and other byproducts of incomplete combustions (which are part and parcel of the typical OWB which people are recognizing as inefficient)...

If you are getting creosote or other "goo", along with liquid water, you are basically operating at the level of the typical OWB, with comparable efficiencies....


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

TFF :smirk: 

So everyone here that figures they are running a gassifier at say, North of 82%, then sees any 'goo', creosote, and/or water in a form other than vapor, just dropped down to say, 50%?


----------



## kuribo

f you are getting material amounts of creosote or other byproducts of incomplete combustion, no matter what efficiency you are getting, it is not as good as it would be with complete combustion. Nor are you operating at the high temperatures associated with gasification. Gasification= burning of volatile gases (creosote). A large part of the heat energy released by combustion results from the burning of the volatile gases. If you are not burning them and they are condensing, forming creosote, you are no better off than with an OWB as far as efficiency.

One could be gasifying for part of a burn, then go into an idle mode where the gasification stops and the temperatures drop, allowing the volatiles to condense (forming creosote).


----------



## antknee2

td182a said:
			
		

> I have had a Greenwood 100 running for about 2 months now. Does anyone out there have a problem with creosote with the Greenwood? I have all types; liquid, goo, crystallized, etc, emanating from mine, from the loading door, chimney outlet box, chimney, stuck on the water tubes, you name it; its there. I gave it a good cleaning the other day, there is about 3/4 inch solid creosote in the bottom of the chimeny outlet area. No way to get it out without removing the back end.
> 
> I have installed a draft inducer (linked to on their website), now I think I have  a hotter fire and was hoping to eliminate the creosote, but no such luck. It drips out the bottom of the chimney, and runs down the damper door when it's closed.
> 
> I have tried for help from the factory, and in all fairness a gentleman did call back one day, we played telephone tag but he's been 'it' for awhile now but hasn't called back. So other than having a nice chat with Nancy, I can't get any info. Some questions I want to ask, the book says 6 in chimney Minimum. The exhaust outlet is 8 inch, my thimble is 8 inch, so I put in an 8 in chimney. Could this be my problem? And if it is, and I'm not getting enough draft, wouldn't the draft inducer fix it?  Would the extra chimney size increase or decrease the draft? I have about 6 ft of 8 inch black pipe with 2 ninties into an 8 inch thimble into a 7X11 masonary chimney inside the house.
> 
> One last question, if I purchase a draft meter, which is the best one and where can I get it?
> 
> Thanks for any help, this site is a wealth of info.



Sorry to here your Greenwood is not operating cleanly , we need more info to try to give some good advice . Acurate draft readings , stack temp readings inside flue by boiler , flue tempature on top of your chimney , average moisture content of your wood , average time your damper stays open , do you have some buffer tank to absorbe excess btu output , finaly what type of chimney[ inside or outsie ] how long ??? This can be solved . Check out some of the tools of the trade. Anthony


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## td182a

Eric Johnson, I am burning bug killed pine, dryed standing. It should probably be a bit drier, but I burn it in a Pacific fireplace insert as well, and it burns very clean and hot. 

The boiler temp is set at 160 / 180.

In order to run effectently, this boiler should probably run full out for a long period of time, then shut down. I suspect the reason I have such a problem with creosote, is that it is starting and stopping too much. I don't see a way around that, other than with water storage, and not needing water storage is one of the reasons I purchased the Greenwood!


----------



## td182a

Anthony D, you have a very proffesional setup! Looks good.

I am thinking I should get a draft meter rather than just guesstimating. What is the brand of the one you have in your photo? Works well? 
As for stack temp, is that one of the magnetic ones in the photo? Works well?
I suspect the temp at the chimney top is not very high, I can hold my hand in it easily. The Greenwood is only supposed to be 350 or so coming out of the stove. By the time it travels through 21 ft of Masonary chimney, its cooled off substancially.
As for a buffer tank, I have the Greenwood circulating the existing oil fired boiler, using its water volume for a buffer. I have the supplied high temp switch hooked to a relay controlling the house heat, if the water outlet on the stove reaches 200 degrees, the house heating system kicks in. I also have a 90,000 BTU exchanger hooked in for DHW, the electric heater is shut off. We have 4 kids, so hot water is in constant use!
I have 56 inches of 8 in black pipe not including 2 90's, going too 21 feet of 7X11 clay lined masonary chimney inside the house and integeral with another flue from a Pacific Fireplace insert upstairs burning the same wood very well and cleanly. I just installed a draft inducer which has reduced the smoke problem, and I think it has somewhat reduced the creosote problem. 

I will try to attach a photo showing the creosote from the draft door and leaking from the chimney.


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## Eric Johnson

Do you have a nozzle or nozzles in that boiler?

I agree that your problem is most probably going into idle and staying there long enough for the creosote to form. Usually that's the sign of an oversized boiler for the heat load. And you are correct, hot water storage would be a good cure. I think the reason some mfgs. say you don't need storage is more to gain a marketing advantage than a reflection of the ability of their equipment. Refractory can't compare with water, IMO, as a way to move and store heat, especially in the kind of volumes you need with a big boiler serving a moderate heat load. Getting back to the marketing--if you didn't need storage, it would represent a few thousand dollars in savings. That would be a perceived competitive advantage. JMO, of course.

You might also check your air settings. On mine, not enough secondary air will cause smoke, although even during idle, I don't seem to get creosote. But it's a different design.

Getting back to my question about nozzles: On a gasifier like the EKO, you can block off all or part of a nozzle to effectively cut the boiler's output, resulting in longer burns and less idle time. It's not a perfect solution, since the boiler was designed to burn with full nozzle power, but it does work and is one way to minimize idling without storage. You can also learn to fire the boiler according to conditions, which is usually just a matter of observation and experience.

EDIT: Or, forget everything I just said and talk to these guys:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11801/P15/

Similar boiler design, I believe.


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## SteveJ

Eric, 

I agree - the Greenwood looks like the Seton.

First and foremost, I would suggest testing and sealing all leaks as shown by Anthony in https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/11100/P0/.

Anthony is the expert on this boiler - try to get all measuring device he suggests.

Hope this helps - maybe we can start a Seton/Greenwood tips and tricks thread?

Steve


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## Eric Johnson

Please do.


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## wdc1160

I would like to point out that this is the most viewed post on hearth.com.  
At first I didn't understand why, but i think that this explains it: 
"I See Dead BTU's" has used the term"goo" 10 times-- then defined its compostion and that he picked an electronic posting fight with "kuribo" -- and that he still has Pirro as his avatar.

It's got the makings of the best post on the forum no doubt.


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## Eric Johnson

What were we talking about, again?


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## wdc1160

The orginal guy who posted the question withdrew his membership from the forum -- So I don't know


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

LOL, ok, so, I am from NY and I think the ex-Mrs Pirro is hot ;-P . . . . Anyway . . .

I was just pointing out that it's easy for an 'expert' to say you shouldn't have . . . [insert a word that rhymes with Dew, here] and that if you do then you are not gasifying and are suddenly no more efficient than a typical OWB. If you shouldn't ever have creosote, then why do hydronic units like the EKO (no relation to the Electric Light Orchastra) have cleaning devices? Yeah, it would be great if we all burned 10% moisture content wood, always ran full out, always had all the wood in the load hot enough to not supress combustion, yada, yada, yada. Anyway, my beef would be that the aforementioned engineer made it sound that you are either 'gassifying' or burning inefficiently. Would that mean that before, say, an EKO or other forced induction unit gets up to 'gassification' it is burning at say 50%, then it jumps right to 85-90% when it hits 'gassification'? I doubt it. But I am most definitly NOT an engineer. ;-) It's all good.

Eric - the GW prides itself on being much 'simpler' than the forced induction units, which is to say we don't have nozzles, etc. We have four airtubes at the back of the primary combustion chamber. These are either closed off completely, or open completely. No fan. The smoke path goes up the back of the box, is forced forward slightly by the shape of the primary combustion chamber, then has to go bac and down to exit the unit. Many less things to tinker with on these units, but likely also not quite as efficient as the EKO or other well-designed forced induction units bantered about here everyday.

LOL< getting back to our original poster, one generic thing I would say is give it a year with any new hydronic to figure out what you're doing. And measure stuff. Don't assume exhast temp, don't assume draft. And keep asking questions here, despite obnoxious pricks like me :lol: 

Jimbo


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## Eric Johnson

You're only an obnoxious prick when you drink, Jimbo. Otherwise, you're just colorful. And you pass on a lot of good information.

I agree with your assessment of the time it takes go get comfortable with any new woodburning appliance. It probably takes longer than that to get really good.

The EKO's hx cleaner assembly basically just knocks fly ash and soot back down into the ash pit. I've never seen anything like the "goo" in some of those pics leaking out the back of the Seton and Greenwood on my rig. But it looks a lot like the creosote that my other boilers have produced at times. Of course, I don't burn wet or green wood, so I might see it if I did. Normally, you stand a chance of burning that stuff off with a hot fire. But I'm trying to figure out how you get it out of your chimney with stack temps below 500.


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## wdc1160

Jimbo your preaching to the choir.  As a NY'er your genetically predisposed to not lettting others talk about your goo.  I think that you probably will have a following/groupies after this set of posts.  You'll be the Dennis Rodman of the Boiler Room.  I'll shut up now so I don't interrupt your electronic ACE whooping.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

LOL, Dennis Rodman was a Laker for a while, so it's all good. Maybe I should 'find' an avitar of Pirro wrestling a Laker Gurl . . . that should give me a whole new following :coolsmile: 

Anyway . . . Eric . . .yes, I definitly had more of the soot/water mix last year, when I was burning a huge Basswood tree (the tree was taken down during house building, contained probably 1 1/2 FULL cord, yet produced enough heat to heat my house for like a day and a half) and other 'junk' wood that needed cleaning up. This year, a combination of better wood (read, lower moisture content red oak) and more experience (read, leave the damn load door closed for 8 hours at a time! and don't over fill the box) and the aforementioned 'gunk' is way less this year.

Jimbo


----------



## kuribo

Let me try to explain this one more time:

There is regular combustion which releases the volatile components in the fuel. If temperatures are not hot enough, and/or there is not sufficient oxygen, these volatile compounds go up the flue, attach themselves to the fire box, etc., where they condense forming tars, creosote, and other "goo". These volatiles contain significant quantities of energy. If temps aren't high enough, they are condensing, they aren't being burned. If they aren't being burned, energy is being wasted. If energy is being wasted in this manner, gasification and it's higher efficiencies are not being achieved. This is the OWB system. Smoky, tarry, "gooey", lower efficiency.

If temps are high and the oxygen sufficient, these volatiles are burned and release their heat energy. No visible smoke, no tars, no "goo". High efficiency. This is gasification.

If you are getting smoke, tars, creosote, "goo", you are not operating at gasification efficiencies because, you are not gasifying throughout the burn.

The cleanout system in the ECO and others of this design are there to shake loose soot and ash, not tars and creosote. 

And, yes, before gasification starts with the ECO and the others, they smoke a bit and are not operating at gasification efficiencies. Gasification starts once the fuel has been pyrolized and starts producing "wood gas". 

This can all be found through a bit of poking around on the net. No mysteries here....


----------



## ISeeDeadBTUs

However, if you read https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewreply/133148/

you will see that another expert says "That is, the process by which solid carbon/organic fuels liberate combustible gas upon application of the required external heat flux.  This process is endothermic, as it would cease upon removal of the applied heat flux, and is therefore, not a form of oxidation.  No matter what one uses to burn wood, anytime a solid fuel is involved in a combustion reaction, gasification or pyrolysis occurs.  Molecules from solid fuel cannot participate in oxidation reactions when they’re still involved with the solid.  When you observe any solid fuel combustion you are observing two separate categories of chemical reaction."

Not trying to get into a pissing match with anyone, just saying that many times experts and salesman do not agree with other experts and salesman. And poor working stiffs like us have to ferret out the BS. 

I wonder if the original poster gave up on his GW yet . . . maybe I could pick it up cheap for some 'modifications' . . .


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## kuribo

And if that liberated combustion gas does not burn, it does not release its energy and exits the flue and/or condenses forming creosote.

It is certainly true that anytime solid fuel is pyrolized (burned), it releases gas, which in the literature is termed "gasification". What is important is whether or not the released gases are burned or allowed to condense. In the vernacular, "gasification" has come to mean not only the production of these gases (which happens whenever there is combustion) but the burning of these gases under high temperatures, leading to high efficiencies. All boilers, including OWB's are technically "gasifiers", but only what is called popularly a "gasification boiler (EKO, et al), burns the volatiles and has high efficiency. The others produce the wood gas, but do not burn it (OWB's)...


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## wdc1160

I actually had gone back to read what your goo may consist of.  And tried to think of why it may form.



> Not trying to get into a pissing match with anyone, just saying that many times experts and salesman do not agree with other experts and salesman. And poor working stiffs like us have to ferret out the BS.



In one of your posts you thought some of the goo may be some of the refractory matierial??   I am going to assume that is a typo.

I thought the refractory matierals in the GW may facilitate condensation.  Normally this is a horrible 
thing.

The refractory material in the GW isn't going to have the same reaction as the metals in the other post.

maybe the condensation mixed with ash isn't an alarm bell.  Maybe it is an advanced condsation ash cleaning feature that deadBtu's always wanted.  ACACF for short.


----------



## antknee2

td182a said:
			
		

> Anthony D, you have a very proffesional setup! Looks good.
> 
> I am thinking I should get a draft meter rather than just guesstimating. What is the brand of the one you have in your photo? Works well?
> As for stack temp, is that one of the magnetic ones in the photo? Works well?
> I suspect the temp at the chimney top is not very high, I can hold my hand in it easily. The Greenwood is only supposed to be 350 or so coming out of the stove. By the time it travels through 21 ft of Masonary chimney, its cooled off substancially.
> As for a buffer tank, I have the Greenwood circulating the existing oil fired boiler, using its water volume for a buffer. I have the supplied high temp switch hooked to a relay controlling the house heat, if the water outlet on the stove reaches 200 degrees, the house heating system kicks in. I also have a 90,000 BTU exchanger hooked in for DHW, the electric heater is shut off. We have 4 kids, so hot water is in constant use!
> I have 56 inches of 8 in black pipe not including 2 90's, going too 21 feet of 7X11 clay lined masonary chimney inside the house and integeral with another flue from a Pacific Fireplace insert upstairs burning the same wood very well and cleanly. I just installed a draft inducer which has reduced the smoke problem, and I think it has somewhat reduced the creosote problem.
> 
> I will try to attach a photo showing the creosote from the draft door and leaking from the chimney.



This is gauge I use, it's overkill but a great tool for boilers that rely on natural draft like Greenwood , Seton , Adobe , Greenfire . I find just by a quick glimpse at the draft gauge and the internal stack thermometer you can tell if tell if burning clean and efficient , sometimes it needs a couple dry splits to bring it up to speed . This is a direct quote from the Seton boilerr instruction book . If the exhaust temperature drops below 250 f before it exits the top of the chimney it will restrict the draft necessary for clean burn, this will cause the pressure vessel to form creosote and will cause the boiler and the chimney to make water that will corrode the boilerr and the chimney. Anthony
http://www.valuetesters.com/Bacharach-13-7018-MZF-Draft-Gauge.php


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## SteveJ

My cheap alternative to Anthony's draft gauge is Dwyer's Mark II 25 http://www.dwyer-inst.com/htdocs/pressure/Model25-40Price.cfm. About $40 with shipping from Dwyer and about $25 with shipping from eBay.

Seems to work fine and is the gauge referenced on the Yukon-Eagle site http://www.yukon-eagle.com/SearchResults/Manometer/tabid/190/Default.aspx


----------



## sparky1961

td182a said:
			
		

> Anthony D, you have a very proffesional setup! Looks good.
> 
> I am thinking I should get a draft meter rather than just guesstimating. What is the brand of the one you have in your photo? Works well?
> As for stack temp, is that one of the magnetic ones in the photo? Works well?
> I suspect the temp at the chimney top is not very high, I can hold my hand in it easily. The Greenwood is only supposed to be 350 or so coming out of the stove. By the time it travels through 21 ft of Masonary chimney, its cooled off substancially.
> As for a buffer tank, I have the Greenwood circulating the existing oil fired boiler, using its water volume for a buffer. I have the supplied high temp switch hooked to a relay controlling the house heat, if the water outlet on the stove reaches 200 degrees, the house heating system kicks in. I also have a 90,000 BTU exchanger hooked in for DHW, the electric heater is shut off. We have 4 kids, so hot water is in constant use!
> I have 56 inches of 8 in black pipe not including 2 90's, going too 21 feet of 7X11 clay lined masonary chimney inside the house and integeral with another flue from a Pacific Fireplace insert upstairs burning the same wood very well and cleanly. I just installed a draft inducer which has reduced the smoke problem, and I think it has somewhat reduced the creosote problem.
> 
> I will try to attach a photo showing the creosote from the draft door and leaking from the chimney.


----------



## sparky1961

look at your pressure vessal to see if u have a build up on the pipes. The lower part of the vessal at the rear of your boiler could be getting clog with creosote that will cause draft problems i have seen that happen before. also if u can try burning large wood it makes a huge huge inprovement !


----------



## jebatty

Goo -- no goo. Got my first goo which told me much and fits the discussion. Reloaded my Tarm with the usual pine, shut the bypass damper, forgot to turn on the draft fan. Came back a couple of hours later, and goo was dripping from most of the places where goo could drip.

Yeoman's conclusion -- unburned combustion gases/products condensing everywhere they could and hijacking gravity to their final resting places.

Never happened before or after. Being a few watts short of 100 sometimes makes everything brighter.


----------



## jebatty

Forgot -- soot, whether or not mixed with water, in the ideal gassification world, should this even exist? Isn't soot a form of carbon, which when heated in the presence of oxygen burns, giving heat, which is why we have boilers? Since none of our boiler are 100% efficient, there always will be some soot/carbon, but the less we have the better?

And if soot is mixing with water to make goo, where is the water coming from? Shouldn't the chimney be hot enough to vaporize water so that water is not condensing, to mix with soot, to make goo?

Don't we all want goo-gone?


----------



## td182a

Thought I'd post an update on my GW 'goo' problems. As some posters have mentioned on this site, the GW and possibly others, are not like the OWB in that you only put in enough wood for the conditions at the time in order to run a certain length of time. (does that make sense??) I have had OWB's and twice a day you go out and top them up to the max. When I did that with the GW, it was idle so much it ran the 'goo' out every orifice. I now try to keep it burning with hot embers, blue flames being the best. I also don't open the door unless it's burned down to embers, and try to let it burn everything before adding more. I have the draft fan (same one as on their website) set to come on when the damper door opens, and only open the door when the fan is running. I would say that I no longer have the big 'goo' problems, and have about 2 gallons of ash every month from reasonably dry bug kill pine.
I had a problem with the Aquastat which caused the stove to overheat, which caused the low water sensor to malfunction. I called GW, they sent me out a new Aquastat & low water sensor ASAP. Have too give them credit. I have also wired the circ pump into an UPS unit in order to prevent overheating in the event of a power loss. It has already saved a potential problem when the power went out for a 1/2 hour or so.

Overall, I would have to say that I'm reasonably satisfied with the unit, it's simple, reasonably priced, and better to use 'free' wood than gas/oil/elec. Just have too install a draft inducer, load wood in relation to heat needs, don't open the door unless the draft fan is running & wire in an uninterupted power supply to the pump (but allow the draft door to lose power) in case of a power failure.


----------



## antknee2

td182a said:
			
		

> Thought I'd post an update on my GW 'goo' problems. As some posters have mentioned on this site, the GW and possibly others, are not like the OWB in that you only put in enough wood for the conditions at the time in order to run a certain length of time. (does that make sense??) I have had OWB's and twice a day you go out and top them up to the max. When I did that with the GW, it was idle so much it ran the 'goo' out every orifice. I now try to keep it burning with hot embers, blue flames being the best. I also don't open the door unless it's burned down to embers, and try to let it burn everything before adding more. I have the draft fan (same one as on their website) set to come on when the damper door opens, and only open the door when the fan is running. I would say that I no longer have the big 'goo' problems, and have about 2 gallons of ash every month from reasonably dry bug kill pine.
> I had a problem with the Aquastat which caused the stove to overheat, which caused the low water sensor to malfunction. I called GW, they sent me out a new Aquastat & low water sensor ASAP. Have too give them credit. I have also wired the circ pump into an UPS unit in order to prevent overheating in the event of a power loss. It has already saved a potential problem when the power went out for a 1/2 hour or so.
> 
> Overall, I would have to say that I'm reasonably satisfied with the unit, it's simple, reasonably priced, and better to use 'free' wood than gas/oil/elec. Just have too install a draft inducer, load wood in relation to heat needs, don't open the door unless the draft fan is running & wire in an uninterupted power supply to the pump (but allow the draft door to lose power) in case of a power failure.



Hi td182a I like to read follow up reports , helps with future problem solving . Keep up the clean burning . Anthony


----------



## jebatty

I hope no one already mentioned this, but to my mind with gasification boilers there is a good reason not to add wood before the prior load has burned down to low coals, just as td182a has discovered. 

1) the prior wood load has brought the boiler up to temp, 
2) the most volatile (hottest) gases burned off in bringing the boiler up to temp initially, 
3) the partially burned wood and then coals are maintaining the boiler within operating range (there may be some idling during this period), and 
4) as the whole load burns down to low coals, the boiler actually may cool down some (to 170 or so).

At low coals, now add wood, and the new wood will really take off, burning off the hot burning volatile gases, and the boiler fairly quickly again will brought up to full temp. By this time the boiler is back to (3) above, and all is good.

If fresh wood is added at stage (3), with the boiler already up to operating temp and maybe even some idling, the new wood will really take off, burning off the hot burning volatile gases, and extended idling periods may result. During these idling periods, if long and repeated, the fresh wood, still loaded with moisture and some volatile gases, will smolder, producing creosote and water vapor. These head up the flue, condense and maybe even wash down ash and creosote fines stuck to the chimney walls -- the result being goo running down and out any place available.

I had a small "goo" problem accidentally, which gave rise to this thinking, when I added fresh wood to a half burned load. In doing this I shut off the draft fan so smoke wouldn't come out the firebox door. But then I forgot to turn the draft fan back on. The new wood smoldered, and a minor goo problem just as described was the result.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

I think the hardest thing for me personally is getting it through my head that you have to put an 8-hour load in, shut the door, and not open the door till the temp drops below say 175* (aquastat set at 190* with 10 deg +/-). If I did this for the whole season, I bet I would have burned less wood. This is the one argument in favor of either full insturmentation or having the unit inside.

But hell, when it's 40-50* in March, it's easy to load it and leave it. Even Aspen will heat the house at this temp :cheese:


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## jebatty

Ahhh! aspen.  :coolsmirk: 

See https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/16085/


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## PowerView

This is my first year with my Greenwood 100 and I just got done cleaning out the chimney because so much ash had collected at the elbows (2) and in the back of the unit at the exit that I could not get a draft.  Wow, that really improved things and my temps are running much better.

It certainly begged the question, how did so much ash collect in the chimney?  I can't tell if the soot had collected during idle times and then burned later dropping the ash, or if the ash had blown up the chimney and been too heavy to actually exit.  

I am burning green wood (pun) and the moisture is certainly a problem.  However, I have to agree with jebatty with slight modification.  You HAVE to let the fire burn down and the coals to burn out, otherwise the coals build and build.  A deep pile of coals maintains temp pretty well, but it won't take the house from 62 to 72 in any big hurry.

I have my thermostats set to go down to 62 at night and then to go back to 72 at 5:15am - 8:30am.  This makes it nice for my wife later in the morning.  Then the temp is set to drop a bit during the day and heat up again at 5:30 pm to 9pm.  This causes my furnace to work hard during 2 times of the day.  What I have found is that I need to time my loads and select my woods and quanity acording to the temperature outside.  The goal is to have the fire burned to coals and dwindling (150 - 170) 1 hour into each of the 'heavy heating periods'  Then I load the stove at 6-7 am and pm to ensure that the new (wet) wood has about 2 hours of burn time to help evaporate all of the water.  If I do this properly, I am left with logs in a 'coal' state and no moiture left during the idle times at night and the middle of the day.  This has REALLY helped stop the black gooky water running out onto the floor everywhere.

Well, just my 2 cents.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs

My experience has been that programmable 'stats don't work that great with radiant. My oil boiler has a daytime and a nighttime desired temp, and I've found it's best to just set it for the desired daytime temp and leave it alone.


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## slowzuki

They can if they are the right kind, a simple bang on bang off normal controller won't because it doesn't know the slab is slowing down the warm up or that it will cause the temp to overshoot.  A programable differential controller is needed.


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## jebatty

PowerView said:
			
		

> I have to agree with jebatty with slight modification.  You HAVE to let the fire burn down and the coals to burn out, otherwise the coals build and build. . ..



I'm not too familiar with the Greenwood. I have a Tarm and coal buildup is not an issue. The Tarm burns from the bottom up from the super-heated refractory tunnel, so all coals are reduced to nothing as the wood load burns down.


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## cheaperway46

i'm not sure this will solve your problem, but i believe it is worth a try. i had a very simioar problem with my wood stove in my garage. the problem is not the " recommended height " you have to get the chimney above the highest point on the building. if your "recommended height " is 13 feet, and your building at it's tallest point is 15 feet, it just won't work, you have to be around 18 feet. think about every chimney on every building you've ever seen, they are above the tallest part of the building for a reason. the building messes with the airflow. it's an easy cheap, "try " .
but now i have a question for you... would you recommend the greenwood 100? i would like to discuss (via email) this stove w/you.
i am thinking of purchasing one, and would like to discuss with someone who owns one other than the dealer. please email me.
thank you


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