# Had a hopper fire last night, need advice



## goathead (Jan 17, 2009)

Thankfully my dog woke us up as the house was getting smokey since my smoke detector (which had a new battery as of the time change) failed as well.  What a night.  

So I went downstairs and found smoke coming out of the hopper.  When I opened up, I could see the orange glow of the pellets down near the feed.  I immediately started scooping out the unburnt pellets into my ash bucket and as I kept scooping, the pellets were getting more air and flaring up.  Not a fun situation.  So, I wound up putting a little bit of water on it to knock it down so I could keep getting the pellets out.  Finally got it all settled after about an hour and took the stove apart to make sure I didn't miss anything.  

Now I'm trying to figure out what went wrong and if the stove is still functional.

Stove - Quadra-fire Castile insert

When I went through the stove and checked the safety devices to see what tripped. 

Snap disk 2 - overfire did not trip

Snap disk 3 - burnback into hopper DID trip

So, I'm confused as to why I had the problem unless my snap disk 2 is bad.  It looks like inside the fire box got VERY hot.  Everything is black and orange with pellets burnt outside the fire pot, almost like it kept feeding.  Glass is totally black.  Overfeed and overfire?

My exhaust motor also seems to have issues now as well as it seems tougher than normal to turn.  Could the heat have cooked the bearings?  Or maybe the motor failed and caused the chain of events?

The auger is cooked black and shiny.  Not sure if the motor is still good or not.  I'll have to check this later today.

As far as maintenance goes on the stove.  I had done my weekly cleaning about 3 days earlier.  This is the tear down cleaning the heat exchangers and behind the fire brick.  I clean the firepot daily so that should have been fine.  

Pellets - I only use New England Wood Pellets which seem to be the best as far as quality goes from the other brands I bought.  

I'm at a loss.  I think it had to be a multiple failure of items to cause it.  I've always felt safe running the stove overnight or while I'm gone, but this has me second guessing.  Also, I've got to see if I can clean the stove since the hopper and and the feed tube are all burned black.  I'm hoping that I can.  I plugged the stove in and it didn't even turn on so I'm assuming that the fact that the safety switches were tripped caused it.  

Any help or advice is appreciated.  Thanks.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 17, 2009)

looking at the second picture (assuming nothing was touched prior to the shot) i'd say the exhaust blower failed and the stove fed for a time before it stopped feeding, thats likley where the ash around the chute came from ,the pot would have piled up and fuel would have nowhere to go, combine that with possible negative pressure (does the instert have an oak?) or an at least partially stopped up flue. smoke is pulled or forced up the chute from the lack of exhaust allowing positive pressure to build in the front of the stove, heat and all, cooks the pellets all the way back , usually a sealed feed system and hopper will help to keep this from happening, also the stove should have had a trip switch of some sort that would have killed the auger as soon as the exhaust blower stopped. if this stove is so equipped i'd take a look at that particular sensor as well assuming it didnt trip and stop the auger from continuing to feed.

burnbacks arent common , usually it takes more than one component failing to cause this  usually exhaust blower being one ,and its monitoring sensor being the other. pellet stoves are rigorously tested to assure that the design can withstand and contain a hopper fire, usually the only thing getting out of the stove is smoke.

i do not really know how the quads are set up to avoid this so i cant point you to a direct part or sensor, but usually the setup is laid out in their tech manual. 

hope this helps ya.


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## richg (Jan 17, 2009)

How old is the stove? Any chance of it still being under warranty?


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## goathead (Jan 17, 2009)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> looking at the second picture (assuming nothing was touched prior to the shot) i'd say the exhaust blower failed and the stove fed for a time before it stopped feeding, thats likley where the ash around the chute came from ,the pot would have piled up and fuel would have nowhere to go, combine that with possible negative pressure (does the instert have an oak?) or an at least partially stopped up flue. smoke is pulled or forced up the chute from the lack of exhaust allowing positive pressure to build in the front of the stove, heat and all, cooks the pellets all the way back , usually a sealed feed system and hopper will help to keep this from happening, also the stove should have had a trip switch of some sort that would have killed the auger as soon as the exhaust blower stopped. if this stove is so equipped i'd take a look at that particular sensor as well assuming it didnt trip and stop the auger from continuing to feed.
> 
> burnbacks arent common , usually it takes more than one component failing to cause this  usually exhaust blower being one ,and its monitoring sensor being the other. pellet stoves are rigorously tested to assure that the design can withstand and contain a hopper fire, usually the only thing getting out of the stove is smoke.
> 
> ...



The only thing I touched in that picture is the white mark on the fire brick.  I gave it a quick scrape to see how thick the soot was.  The quads have a vacuum switch as well which should trip if the exhaust stops so I'm wondering if the vacuum switch failed also?  I might bring it up to the place I bought it and have them take a look at it.  I have to totally disassemble it to clean it thoroughly anyhow.  

For the other poster, The stove is either 4 or 5 years old so unfortunately it's out of warranty.


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

My mom has had two now, same stove make and model. What is your vent config? The first one she had, the dealer took the stove back and replaced with new. She maintains it very well, but had another fire a few months ago. I tore the stove apart, removed the auger, cleaned everything. Even though I had cleaned her vent in the fall, it was packed with ash (good quality fuel, I burn the same). Other than the tripped snap disk 3 and a very dirty auger that needed to be buffed clean, the stove was fine. So here's my theory in her case. I think he vent config (flex 20' up) prevents the fly ash from leaving the stack, and then occludes the vent causing an inefficient burn and air back pressure that flows up the drop tube. Because the stove is neg pressure, the only way you can get combustion up the drop tube and into the hopper is with some sort of air flow. Like I said, her vent was almost totally occluded and nothing tripped, all the safe guards checked out electronically. There is an upgrade for this stove from Quad, it is suppose to improve airflow, in fact my dealer just called to say it is in. Part number is UK-30KPEL, demand that it be no charge because of your problems! I would also have your dealer or you contact Quad about this, they should take it VERY seriously. Search the site for hopper fire or quad upgrade for previous threads. I have a free standing Castile and cannot make my stove do this, I've tried by cheating it even. Won't happen without back pressure to combust the fuel up the drop tube. All this said, I think Quad has an issue with the inserts.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 17, 2009)

By any chance is the hopper area open to the chimney or firebox area of the fireplace?

Just wondering a chimney draft effect working on an insert could perhaps lead to an air path that would setup in the chute.

I've had a few pileups and the pellets never get any air through the chute the fire slowly dies.  Then I also don't have that particular stove.


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## webbie (Jan 17, 2009)

Is the chimney lined to the top?

I guess it goes without saying that a backup battery operated smoke detector AND a CO or combo one is a cheap investment. Personally, I am VERY frightened of fire and try to be extra safe when anything burning is concerned. Heck, my son yesterday pulled a smoldering bagel out of the toaster and tried to throw it into the kitchen trash..I would not let him! I made him stick it into a bowl full of water in the kitchen sink for a few minutes. No use taking chances......


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

Was that your bagel or his Craig? My kids did the hard roll in the microwave deal, looked like a piece of charcoal and tinked like a cooling engine for an hour. Good point about CO's and smoke, an extinguisher mounted at the room entry point (not right by the stove!) is also a must have. Just came home with the upgrade kit, let me see if I can do some scans of the instructions.....


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

Scans, not the best quality, let me know if anyone wants them email or pm'd.


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

Ok Craig, you have mail! I'll having mime errors, I'll send the rest to you in the hope you can post. Thanks!


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

Third time a charm?


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

One last one, cross your fingers....


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

Work?


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## Czech (Jan 17, 2009)

OK, there you have it. The dealers I talked to had no idea this existed, you may need to educate them fyi.


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## goathead (Jan 18, 2009)

Wow, Thanks for the info GotzTheHotz.  I'll print that out when I go to the dealer.  I think I'm going to throw the stove in my truck and bring it up there to see what their opinion is.  Haven't had a ton of time to go through it today but the auger is covered in what looks and feels like black tar and the cork gasket is fully roasted.  

As far as the vent set up.  I have my stove on a lower level and ran a 4" flex pipe all the way up so figure 8' plus another 12-15' for the upstairs and the peak?  That's what the inspector was looking for when I had it installed.  I've always had a good draft.  Even when cleaning the stove and having the fire brink out there was always a natural venting up the exhaust.  

I'm just so disgusted and really bummed out.  I've had my stove for 5 years and touted the safety features and love being able to heat my house with a renewable resource...ok, and save money from using my electric heat.  Then on top of it, my smoke detector failed.  Needless to say I picked up all new ones today and my friend who's a firefighter in town brought over CO detectors for me for the upstairs and downstairs.  I just keep thinking how lucky we are that my dog woke us up otherwise who knows what could have happened with a 1/2 full hopper full of pellets.

Thanks everyone for the help and input.  Definitely have given me a lot to check out and some interesting history on the stove.  I'll be checking this out online see if I can find anything else.


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## Czech (Jan 18, 2009)

Dogs are good! Glad you and yours are ok, hopefully the info here will help.


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## Nicholas440 (Jan 18, 2009)

Is that upgrade kit for the older Castile inserts, or is it also for the newest models? I have a new Castile insert, and mine looks like those photos, I only have rope around the center brick, and none on the outer two bricks, however my bricks are straight across they are not angled inwards.

After reading about that hopper fire I dont feel as confident in my Quadrafires safety features. I had an incident a few weeks ago where I looked over at my insert and I immediately saw the fire in the box getting very wild and out of control, it was always active and bright yellowish white almost, only this time it was going crazy, and the Quad insert was making some awful sounding noises, not mechanical sounds it was from the fire trying to get out up the top baffle. The entire firebox was engulfed in flame and black smoke, the fire was a very dull orange and lazy but it seemed like it just could not exhaust fast enough,  luckily I was right there and saw it happening, this fire was not just high flame it was totally out of control, so I immediately shut the unit off and let is slowly burn itself out, also in all the strange noise of that wild fire, it puffed back from under the door where the airwash gap is and I got a puff of smoke in the room. After it shut down my firebox looked like those photos above, with black soot everywhere.  I notice upon cleaning the firepot that I had a lot more ash caked up in the bottom, and was almost rock hard on the top , so I think what happened was it suddenly formed a hard crust, and the tiny air holes in the bottom may have been blocked which caused the fire to be orange and sooty,  but I had no over filling, or abnormal amount of pellets in the burn pot.  I did a really good cleaning, and scraped the pot good and turned it back on and it has run fine ever since.  Thats when I started dumping the burn pot daily or even twice a day sometimes just to make sure the air holes dont get cut off. A good cleaning seems to have fixed the problem, and I didnt give the Quad time to use its safety features, I shut it down as soon as I saw the fire had totally filled the box and it wasnt getting out fast enough. Needless to say Im not very confident in my Castille insert after reading about the hopper fire,  I now have my 2 gallon pump sprayer in the laundry room should my hopper ever start to smoke. 


You would think these stove manufacturers would put more than just a couple of safety features on them. I would think there should be a  sensor in the chute to shut it down in the event any fire backs up into it, and also a sensor in the hopper itself to sense for fire or smoke in the hopper .  They should have an automatic shut down that can shut off all air to the firebox and snuff it out,  same with the hopper, it should be sealed air tight in case the pellets in the bottom catch fire.


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## GVA (Jan 18, 2009)

Nicholas440 said:
			
		

> same with the hopper, it should be sealed air tight in case the pellets in the bottom catch fire.


I agree with that........
Quad guys why don't they have the hopper lid sealed?


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## goathead (Jan 18, 2009)

Nicholas440 said:
			
		

> You would think these stove manufacturers would put more than just a couple of safety features on them. I would think there should be a  sensor in the chute to shut it down in the event any fire backs up into it, and also a sensor in the hopper itself to sense for fire or smoke in the hopper .  They should have an automatic shut down that can shut off all air to the firebox and snuff it out,  same with the hopper, it should be sealed air tight in case the pellets in the bottom catch fire.



Actually there is a sensor in the chute that shuts it down in case the fire backs up into it.  That tripped on mine, but what I don't know is why I still had a fire in the hopper.  My "overfire" snap disk didn't trip so I don't know if maybe that was faulty coupled with my exhaust motor failing that built up so much heat that it just got the hopper hot to the point where it just combusted the pellets.  That's what I need to go through and figure out and test everything on the stove to see exactly what failed because I know it's more than one thing.  

The hopper being air tight, I read in the manual that there needs to be a vacuum in the hopper for the stove to run otherwise the vacuum switch will trip.  Not sure how it's done with the top not being sealed.  Maybe the shape of the hopper and the way the pellets sit in there...don't know.  I do know that the fire didn't have a lot of air until I started moving the pellets around with the top open.  That's when it really flared up.


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## stoveguy13 (Jan 18, 2009)

the reason that the stoves got a hopper fire is from dirtty stoves ther stove is not getting enough air and keeps feedding but can not keep up with the feed rate the the vacum switch is more for the pipe end of things the nuber 3 snap is in place to shut the stove down when the auger tube heates as when the pellets back up the drop tube


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## kbjelka (Jan 18, 2009)

goathead said:
			
		

> stoveguy2esw said:
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Hey GoatHead,

The top baffle plate looks like it is out of position.  If the photo is untouched then that may have been your issue.  It should be all the way to the right with the tab on the lower right nested in the notch.  Check that you are installing the baffle plate correctly.  If it is installed wrong the hopper floor can get very hot.


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## kbjelka (Jan 18, 2009)

GotzTheHotz said:
			
		

> Scans, not the best quality, let me know if anyone wants them email or pm'd.



Hey GotzTheHotz I would love a copy of that PDF.  Can you send it via PM?  Thanks!


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## goathead (Jan 18, 2009)

Groundhog said:
			
		

> Hey GoatHead,
> 
> The top baffle plate looks like it is out of position.  If the photo is untouched then that may have been your issue.  It should be all the way to the right with the tab on the lower right nested in the notch.  Check that you are installing the baffle plate correctly.  If it is installed wrong the hopper floor can get very hot.



I double checked that and the baffle plate is sitting in the tab like it should.  Whenever I clean the stove I make sure that it goes in right because I always have to pull down a bit for the tab to go in.  I haven't taken it apart yet because I want the dealer to see it as it sits.  The only thing I pulled out was the auger because I wanted to make sure that I had all pellets out.  The auger motor appears to be seized also.  Something else to fix.


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## Czech (Jan 19, 2009)

Looks familiar. The baffle is offset on the inserts, that is normal. Buff the auger, get the upgrade airflow, go from there. I'm installing the kit Monday at my mom's, I'll keep the page posted.


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## richg (Jan 21, 2009)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with a siezed auger motor, blower and overall system failure, have you considered junking the stove? I know it wasn't cheap, and a new one will be big bucks as well, but is it worth your safety?


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## TboneMan (Jan 21, 2009)

richg said:
			
		

> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but with a siezed auger motor, blower and overall system failure, have you considered junking the stove? I know it wasn't cheap, and a new one will be big bucks as well, but is it worth your safety?




I was thinking the same thing.   Seems like there's enough damage to "total" the unit.


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## goathead (Jan 21, 2009)

I hear you.  I brought the stove to the dealer on Monday and they are taking a look at it.  The auger motor he said it looked like just the bushing is toast which can be replaced.  The exhause motor will need to be replaced as well.  Don't know about anything else yet.  I'm going to call them today and see if they've had a chance to go through it yet.  I figure that if it's $600 or less then I'll fix the stove, but if it goes much more than that I can't really justify spending that kind of money to fix it.  I'd likely look at a new stove.  Until then, i'll keep using my electric heat...ugh.


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## Czech (Jan 21, 2009)

Keep us posted goat. Did you ever contact H&H Combustion fan should be around $170, easy to install. Bushing shouldn't be much.


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## Dougsey (Jan 21, 2009)

goathead said:
			
		

> I hear you.  I brought the stove to the dealer on Monday and they are taking a look at it.  The auger motor he said it looked like just the bushing is toast which can be replaced.  The exhause motor will need to be replaced as well.  Don't know about anything else yet.  I'm going to call them today and see if they've had a chance to go through it yet.  I figure that if it's $600 or less then I'll fix the stove, but if it goes much more than that I can't really justify spending that kind of money to fix it.  I'd likely look at a new stove.  Until then, i'll keep using my electric heat...ugh.



If you fix the stove and place it back into service, would you ever be able to sleep through the night?


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## goathead (Jan 21, 2009)

GotzTheHotz said:
			
		

> Keep us posted goat. Did you ever contact H&H Combustion fan should be around $170, easy to install. Bushing shouldn't be much.



What's H&H  The stove is pretty easy to work on so I'm not that concerned about replacing the parts.


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## goathead (Jan 21, 2009)

Dougsey said:
			
		

> goathead said:
> 
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Excellent question.  Depends what is found out about the stove.  Hypothetically it could happen to any stove if there are multiple failures in any of the features, right?  You could really apply that logic to anything that has inherent risk in life.  The best thing you can do is take every precaution possible to ensure the safety of your family.  I've certainly learned a lot and will be changing some things in my house.  I've added 2 CO detectors and additional smoke detectors both upstairs and downstairs.  

Bottom line, this is why I turned the analysis of what happened to the stove over to professionals that work on these every day.  As long as I know exactly what happened and what I need to do to fix it, I would be comfortable.  Now if I guessed and just replaced a bunch of parts that I "thought" were the problem...I'd have a problem sleeping.


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## alexdrozd (Jan 22, 2009)

Please let us know what the "experts" think could have caused this problem. A hopper fire is always a concern for me but I thought it could never happen with the "safeguards" in place and a clean stove!


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## goathead (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm anxious to know.  They haven't had a chance to go through it yet so my guess is that I won't hear anything until next week.  As soon as I do, I'll post what they say to see if any BS alarms go off.


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## Czech (Jan 23, 2009)

Hearth and Home, parent company of Quad. The stove is pretty simple, if you get it back together and fully working, I would trust it as much as I would before the problem. How was the exhaust by the way? Plugged with ash at all? I have a story regarding my free standing Castile from last night (exhaust 4' up, 3' out), my theory regarding air up the chute stands. I did a 'hot' pot dump, meaning I shut the stove down and dumped the clinker in the pot, and fired it up again. What I did not do is toss some pellets in the pot for ignition, I'm burning 100% corn and these stove will not ignite that. Well, the stove did not ignite, but the thermistor was satisfied (drippy d*ck on the pot) due to the remaining heat in the stove, and the auger kept feeding. Rather than stop the process, I let it go while watching. After the pot was 3/4 full, it did finally ignite, but was so far behind that the pot overflowed. So now we have an overflowed pot and a backed up chute full of fuel, and a slowly burning pot. It eventually shut the stove down and never burned up the chute, the blockage of the chute prevented any further feeding of fuel and the fuel in the chute did not have positive air flow to keep it going. It did not trip any snap disks, just plugged the chute. That's how the stove should operate imho. Please keep us posted goat.


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## goathead (Jan 24, 2009)

Actually I was surprised how much ash was in the exhaust.  It was about 1/4 blocked which is usually where it is at the end of the season after burning 4 tons of pellets.  I haven't even burned 2 tons this year and it's already there.  

That does sound like how the stove is supposed to operate.  How did you make out with your mother's stove and the new baffle?


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## Czech (Jan 24, 2009)

I didn't get to it yet, today I hope. Another little trick I use on her stove, do you have a decent shop vac (I use my big rigid)? I cut a piece of plexi, although wood or anything would work I guess. Cut a rectangle that fits over the access to the exhaust blower after you remove the left brick. Cut a hole that your vac will fit in the center of the plexi, I use the tapered vac attachment. Put the plexi over the access and the vac into the hole, reverse the vac so it blows, hold everything nice and tight and hit the go button on the vac. Stove blow job, works pretty good between vent cleaning and is easy to do when you do a full clean of the stove.


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## goathead (Feb 2, 2009)

Heard back from the dealer and they know the what, but not the why or sequence of events yet.  The exhaust blower, convection blower, and auger are all toast and need to be replaced.  The auger was burned up so that was likely from the heat.  The exhaust blower did fail.  The question is the convection blower and either snap disc two (overfire) and/or the vacuum switch.  More to come in the next few days once I can get up there and test it out.


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## pkitfox (Feb 3, 2009)

Reading this topic has been really interesting.  As a new owner of a pellet stove, I have learned one thing for sure.  There are a lot of knowledgeable people here.   

My 2 cents, for what it is worth.  Having worked in aircraft maintenance for 25 years (Avionics), prior to my current line of work, you learn that extreme effort is put into eliminating single points of failure in the design, and operation of aircraft.  We still periodically discover single points of failure, and have multiple failures, with sometimes bad outcomes.  Sounds like pellet stove manufacturers, from the comments on this topic, attempt to design multiple safety "nets" into there stoves.  

From everything I have ever heard, Quadrafire builds good pellet stoves.  This topic leads me to strongly suspect that we are all subject to a malfunction, that under the right circumstances, could be really bad.  For that matter, other heating appliances can malfunction with horrible outcomes (gas pool heater in a hotel/motel, killed, I believe, 3 people in their room from CO poisoning in Yerrington NV.

I have several smoke and one CO detectors.  Tomorrow I will buy two more CO detectors to so we have one on each level of our home.  I am going to pick up a couple more smoke detectors too.  This thing reminded me how important it is to avoid a single point of failure.  I think I had become complacent.  Thank you.


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## richg (Feb 3, 2009)

This situation is really making me uncomfortable. Multiple failures precipitate a hopper fire, and the dealer is going about rebuilding the stove.  Do you think the dealer, or Quad, may give youa credit towards a new stove if you surrender the old one? We're not talking about a DVD plaer that crapped out.....this is a wood burning appliance that could take down the house and everyone in it.


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## baydog (Feb 3, 2009)

Hi, newbie here! Been burning a Castille insert for exactly one year when it failed to relight after reaching thermostat temp. 

Totally cleaned the stove finding a fairly large amount of ash in the exhast and figured that was the problem. All snapdiscs were un snapped and all system startups were normal, except there were no pellets feeding. So I removed the auger and checked for a jam. No jam, and the motor would not turn when stove called for heat.Thankfully, I had been lurking on this site and did a few searches trying to identify the problem. Came up with the vacuum switch. 

A quick trip to H and H on Monday morning and a new vacuum switch solved my problem. These switches are made in Ohio, and IMO are totally junk! Not well made at all! I will be keeping a close eye on mine in the future, as I think it could cause problems again.

Thanks for all the info you guys provide.


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## Czech (Feb 3, 2009)

Just a quick update regarding the upgrade kit. I went to install it on my Mom's castile insert, apparently the stove is already upgraded (2006). If the left and right bricks are angled out a bit toward the front of the stove, the stove is upgrade. If the bricks sit flat against the back wall, the upgrade kit will work. I did give the stove exhaust a blow with the vac as discribed above, alot of ash came out the top of the vent and I had cleaned it a month or so ago. Again, with the extended flex vents, I think the ash accumulates quicker because it has a harder time exiting the top of the vent, I plan to step up my maint on her stove vent for this reason.


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## alexdrozd (Feb 3, 2009)

It seems to me that for there to be a hopper fire, there would have to be a trail of fuel (pellets) all the way up the chute to the hopper. That is the only way that fire can get into the hopper. Am I wrong in thinking this? 

Then the next question would be how did that trail of pellets get there?


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## goathead (Feb 3, 2009)

ssman said:
			
		

> It seems to me that for there to be a hopper fire, there would have to be a trail of fuel (pellets) all the way up the chute to the hopper. That is the only way that fire can get into the hopper. Am I wrong in thinking this?
> 
> Then the next question would be how did that trail of pellets get there?



There always is a trail of pellets.  The auger looks like a giant cork screw and the tube is loaded with pellets all the way back to the hopper.  When the feed motor turns on, it turns the auger and drops the pellets into the fire pot.  I imagine that the way the fire would get to the hopper would be a combination of heat and an overfire condition.  Just my theory on the second part there.  

This is for the top feed type of stove (which the Quad is), not sure how the bottom feed stoves work or if a hopper fire would even be possible.


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## alexdrozd (Feb 3, 2009)

I guess I am asking what is the length of the chute that the pellets free fall from into the pot? 4", 6", 8", 12" 24"???? The auger doesn't go all the way to the burn pot. So the amount of "free fall" is the length that the pellets had to get backed up. Correct?


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## goathead (Feb 3, 2009)

Ahh, gotcha.  The amount of freefall is around 4 or 5" inches to the top lip of the firepot and then however deep the firepot is, another 5" or so?


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## alexdrozd (Feb 3, 2009)

So I guess the only way the fire can reach the hopper is the flames must shoot up the chute 5" and catch the pellets in the auger on fire, or, a trail of pellets up the chute to reach the auger. Which way sounds more plausible to you?


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## goathead (Feb 3, 2009)

ssman said:
			
		

> So I guess the only way the fire can reach the hopper is the flames must shoot up the chute 5" and catch the pellets in the auger on fire, or, a trail of pellets up the chute to reach the auger. Which way sounds more plausible to you?



Wow, you're right!  Pellets stacking up in a running stove to a depth of roughly 10"+ (5" for the pot + another 5" for the chute) without overfiring or smothering the flame does sound a lot more plausible.  Hmm?

I never said that was the only way it could happen and I don't understand the attitude you've got here.  To me, the flames going up the chute sound a lot more plausible to be honest.  The flames would get there a lot quicker than the fuel.


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## alexdrozd (Feb 3, 2009)

I am sorry if I sound like I have an attitude, I don't. I am just concerned about what happened to you because the same thing can happen to any of us. I am just asking you because you saw the stove and was wondering if you saw a trail of pellets up the chute or not? I'm just trying to figure this out with your help.


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## goathead (Feb 3, 2009)

ssman said:
			
		

> I am sorry if I sound like I have an attitude, I don't. I am just concerned about what happened to you because the same thing can happen to any of us. I am just asking you because you saw the stove and was wondering if you saw a trail of pellets up the chute or not? I'm just trying to figure this out with your help.



Thanks and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.  I'm sure I read too much into it trying to respond quickly rather than reading it thoroughly first.  I do appreciate the input and it's tough to tell the tone when someone is writing.  

To answer the question, there wasn't a trail up the chute of burnt pellets.  There were some pellets at the base of the chute by the firepot, but nothing that burned up into the chute.  When I pulled the auger out, it was loaded with charred pellets...melted almost so it doesn't look like they burned...but definitely smoldered.  That's why I think it was more a "heat" event rather than a true "fire."


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## mgambuzza (Feb 4, 2009)

This morning as I was having coffee I noticed that at the chute of my Castile - fire was trailing up the chute.  What was igniting was the significant amount of pellet dust from my most recent purchase of Penningtons.  Whenever a deposit of pellets came down the chute, a volume of sawdust would follow down to the burn pot causing a flare up.  The flare up would ignite the dust in the chute, following it up, but then extinguishing when the next deposit came down with the sawdust, causing the cycle to begin again.  As long as pellets were coming down the chute with a fresh volume of sawdust, it seemed enough to extinguish the chute flame - at least until the next flare up.  I shut down my stove, cleaned out the remainder of the pellets, vacuumed out the firebox, and cleaned out the stove.  I then filled it with NE Pellets which were no where as dusty, and re-ignited the stove.  As of yet I no longer see the volume of sawdust, nor the trail of flame following up the chute.


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## mgambuzza (Feb 4, 2009)

This morning no fire trail, no sawdust trail up the chute - feel much better than the sinking feeling I was having yesterday looking at the flames playing "follow the chute".


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## goathead (Feb 4, 2009)

mgambuzza said:
			
		

> This morning no fire trail, no sawdust trail up the chute - feel much better than the sinking feeling I was having yesterday looking at the flames playing "follow the chute".



Good news!  I had a bad batch of pellets last year that kept clogging the auger with all the sawdust.  Glad to hear you got it cleared up.


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## Czech (Feb 4, 2009)

Whether the chute is plugged with pellets or even has saw dust on it, it still needs postive airflow up the chute to burn back. The fire box should be under negative pressure, thus causing a slight draw of air down and out of the chute (hopper is not sealed for this reason?). Try lighting a pile of pellets with a lighter sometime. After you've burned the heck out of your thumb from the lighter, note that there is no way a pile will smolder or light without airflow, even if you do wait until your thumb is blistered and get the pile lit in the first place. The sawdust deal is not a big problem, my stove does this all the time. Basically it tells me I should vacuum out the hopper and auger next time the stove runs dry.


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## BIGISLANDHIKERS (Feb 4, 2009)

GotzTheHotz said:
			
		

> Whether the chute is plugged with pellets or even has saw dust on it, it still needs postive airflow up the chute to burn back. The fire box should be under negative pressure, thus causing a slight draw of air down and out of the chute (hopper is not sealed for this reason?). Try lighting a pile of pellets with a lighter sometime. After you've burned the heck out of your thumb from the lighter, note that there is no way a pile will smolder or light without airflow, even if you do wait until your thumb is blistered and get the pile lit in the first place. The sawdust deal is not a big problem, my stove does this all the time. Basically it tells me I should vacuum out the hopper and auger next time the stove runs dry.




The Hopper lid on my Mt Vernon AE has a seal on it.  Is it different than the Castile?


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## Czech (Feb 4, 2009)

Yes. The Castiles that I've seen do not have a sealed hopper.


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## goathead (Feb 22, 2009)

Ok, finally got the stove back yesterday.  They replaced:  Exhaust motor, convection blower, auger motor and assembly, and the door gasket.  They also bead blasted everything while they had it apart to clean it.  They couldn't give me 100% answer on why, but said it was likely a combination of things that were in bad shape that caused it:
*
Exhaust motor:*  Failed - definitely part of it, most likely the initial cause
*Door gasket*:  Frayed and leaking - in retrospect, I probably should have replaced this although I wasn't sure "when" was the time to replace it.  Obviously next time as soon as it shows any wear I'm changing it.
*Convection blower:*  Bearings were dry and seized.  This had pellets lodged in the fan blades which likely threw it out of balance and burned the bearings.  Think this may have been induced by a curious 4 year old and 2 year old firing pellets down the convection tubes.  Grrr.

The auger motor cooked as a result of the fire.

So, they ran the stove for 3 days and said it runs perfect.  I'll be hooking it back up today and looking forward to shutting the electric heat off.  All set with $450/month heating bills.  Ugh..

Lessons leaned:

I'll definitely be a better cleaner and will give it a more thorough inspection every year going forward.  Taking apart the exhaust blower and convection blower to inspect the fan blades and clean them thoroughly.  Also, if the kids are giggling...they are up to something.  Thanks for all the tips and advice!


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## Lousyweather (Feb 22, 2009)

I have to hand it to you, Goathead! You seem to communicate in your lessons learned that youre taking at least some of the responsibility...all too rare these days! hats off to you.  Also, kids: Weve taken matchbox cars out of augers, and crayons out of heat exchangers....the little buggers can mess with stoves!


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## stoveguy13 (Feb 22, 2009)

Dirty stoves can cause some real issues keep it clean you should be happy from now on. cleaner it is the better it will run and heat.


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## goathead (Feb 23, 2009)

Lousyweather said:
			
		

> I have to hand it to you, Goathead! You seem to communicate in your lessons learned that youre taking at least some of the responsibility...all too rare these days! hats off to you.  Also, kids: Weve taken matchbox cars out of augers, and crayons out of heat exchangers....the little buggers can mess with stoves!



I'm just hoping that others learn from the experience that I've had.  This is my first pellet stove so even thought it's been five years it's still a learning experience.  Some things I took for granted I learned I need to pay more attention to and they aren't as "hands off" as they are sometimes portrayed.  If I made a mistake, I made a mistake...fortunately it wasn't costly (other than financially).   I know what to watch for going forward and I'm glad I know that now.  I also learned the importance of multiple smoke detectors and multiple CO detectors which have been added.  I'm extremely thankful that the experience was as it was and not worse and hopefully it will give folks tips on what to check and keep an eye on.


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## jtp10181 (Feb 23, 2009)

Sorry if this has been said already but I only read the first post. One of the things that is often overlooked is the holes in the burn pot. If these are not cleared out regularly the stove will appear to "over feed" which actually its juts not burning fast enough due to lack of air to the fuel. I had a customer locally with a Castile (or maybe Santa Fe) have a hopper fire and he insists there is something defective about the stove because he is perfect and has not done anything wrong. He wont pay us to come look at it either so I ordered a new auger assembly (everything that could melt on his, did). Only thing we can think of is that the burn pot holes here not cleaned on his unit.


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## Jack Morrissey (Feb 26, 2009)

Your baffle plate is definitely not in the right position    Should be a inch plus gap on the left


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## Jack Morrissey (Feb 26, 2009)

On second thought, that baffle plate is definitely in the wrong place if it was on a 2006 castille insert like mine, i guess yours is an earlier model-  Very big difference in the positions!!


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## goathead (Feb 26, 2009)

It's a 2004 model, baffle is in the right place.  Left it in place and the dealer verified that.


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## alexdrozd (Mar 2, 2009)

I still don't get why a hopper fire would start. Even if all 3 of these items failed, shouldn't the snap disc sense an overfire and stop the auger from feeding more pellets?  No pellets, no fire, correct? Can someone please explain?


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## JIM P1 (Mar 2, 2009)

goathead said:
			
		

> stoveguy2esw said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JIM P1 (Mar 2, 2009)

HOPPER FIRES ARE VERY RARE. I KNOW THAT IF THE STOVE IS OUT OF WARRANTY MY COMPANY WOULD REPLACE EVERTHING ON THE STOVE THAT HAS CREOSOTE ON.  ESPECIALLY THE AUGER IF IT CAN'T BE CLEANED PROPERLY. YOU HAVE TO GET RID OF ANY STICKY OR HARD COATINGS OF CREOSOTE. AT HARMAN STOVES THEY REPLACE THE STOVE IF THERE IS EVER A FIRE WHILE STOVE IS UNDER WARRANTY. THANKFULLY, WE HAVE ONLY HAS TWO IN THE LAST 4 YEARS. WE HAVE SEEN A FEW QUADS WITH HOPPER FIRES. IF THE COMBUSTION BLOWER FAILS THEN THE SMOLDREING FLAMES CAN GO STRAIGHT UP THE PELLET DROP TUBE. IT DOESN'T TAKE LONG FOR CREOSOTE TO MAKE A MESS AND IGNITE. CALL YOUR LOCAL DEALER AND IM SURE THEY CAN HELP.


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## woodsman23 (Mar 3, 2009)

JIM P1 said:
			
		

> HOPPER FIRES ARE VERY RARE. I KNOW THAT IF THE STOVE IS OUT OF WARRANTY MY COMPANY WOULD REPLACE EVERTHING ON THE STOVE THAT HAS CREOSOTE ON.  ESPECIALLY THE AUGER IF IT CAN'T BE CLEANED PROPERLY. YOU HAVE TO GET RID OF ANY STICKY OR HARD COATINGS OF CREOSOTE. AT HARMAN STOVES THEY REPLACE THE STOVE IF THERE IS EVER A FIRE WHILE STOVE IS UNDER WARRANTY. THANKFULLY, WE HAVE ONLY HAS TWO IN THE LAST 4 YEARS. WE HAVE SEEN A FEW QUADS WITH HOPPER FIRES. IF THE COMBUSTION BLOWER FAILS THEN THE SMOLDREING FLAMES CAN GO STRAIGHT UP THE PELLET DROP TUBE. IT DOESN'T TAKE LONG FOR CREOSOTE TO MAKE A MESS AND IGNITE. CALL YOUR LOCAL DEALER AND IM SURE THEY CAN HELP.



Most times it is so hard to even get in touch with a dealer but this guy is a dealer and he continues to yell...    (welcome)


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