# Toyota Rav4 Prime - Great Concept Not so great delivery



## peakbagger (Feb 8, 2021)

Long in 1997 before Tesla in the early era of electric vehicles Toyota made a battery EV RAV 4 for  leaser in CA they didnt lease many (1400) . The ones that did make it out in the market were very popular (but pricey), off lease ones  ones when they came up sold for about the original asking price. No doubt Toyota lost money on everyone they leased but it bought them some PR. Subsequently Toyota has been in the hybrid market with the Prius for years and has dipped their toes into the market with the Prius prime but their corporate policy is that an all battery drivetrain is not a good fi and they are banking on fuel cell hydrogen technology. 

They did recently come out with the Rav 4 Prime. Its good fit for my use and lot of others as its a SUV AWD chassis (Priuses are miserable in areas that get snow due to low ground clearance and tight fenderwells that can ice up). The RAV4 is plug in hybrid with 40 miles of EV  capacity. This gets rid of range anxiety for us rural folks but gives us enough power for electric  local runs. For those who want fast acceleration its got quite bit of power (obviously at a cost of gas and battery range). It also still qualifies for the $7.500 federal battery credit.  I do a lot of outdoors trips (precovid) and many of my destinations do not have plug in options and if I add in occasional stops for battery charging it cuts down on my range substantially for weekend and day trips. It also fits into my current work which is mostly from home but soon to be frequent 400 to 500 mile day trips to check on projects every couple of weeks.

So its sounds intriguing and may be worth taking a further look. I start checking availability and quickly find "limited availability in most markets". For the first model year they are shipping a grand total of 5000 of these to the US with most going to California. Supposedly it may be less as they have Covid issues in the supply chain. This of course is buried way down in the advertising. They claim that next model year they may ship 20K of them. The dealers know it and many have 10K markups on the few that are out there.  

Sure looks to me like advertising and they really could care less about actually selling them.  No doubt the Prime will be to get folks in the door and then they will be pointed at the mild hybrid version without the battery pack.


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## woodgeek (Feb 8, 2021)

Totally agree.  Compliance car.  For now.

Year ago folks were saying that all the (non-Tesla) EVs were concept cars, sold in <10k/yr amounts.  the LEAF, Volt and Bolt got up to 20k-ish.  I scoffed.  Now I'm not so sure.


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## EbS-P (Feb 8, 2021)

I’d be interested in an electric hybrid that seats 6 plus a dog crate and could tow 4000 pounds.  Looks like the 2021 Sienna is hybrid.....  just let me pay off my current van and then keep it long enough to feel I got all my money back from the extended warranty they sold me....   we own a RAV4 FWD  love it if was a plug-in!


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## peakbagger (Feb 8, 2021)

I think I saw the Rav 4 Prime rated for 2500 pounds. Usually the limiting factor is frame strength and braking capacity. 

With respect to CA specific EVs, claims are made that the major revenue source for Tesla US and the new plant in Germany is payment from other auto firms so they do not need to build EVs. At one point Fiat was selling a electric in CA and the CEO claimed they were subsidizing it for double its sales price.


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## woodgeek (Feb 9, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> I think I saw the Rav 4 Prime rated for 2500 pounds. Usually the limiting factor is frame strength and braking capacity.
> 
> With respect to CA specific EVs, claims are made that the major revenue source for Tesla US and the new plant in Germany is payment from other auto firms so they do not need to build EVs. At one point Fiat was selling a electric in CA and the CEO claimed they were subsidizing it for double its sales price.



Sure.  The increasing CAFE standards (now likely reinstated) require the auto makers to either sell fewer gas guzzling trucks (a profit center) or sell tiny high MPG gas econboxes or competitive EVs.  Or they can pay Tesla for credits if they don't.

I think this is (regulated) capitalism in action.  But it does mean that the majors can lose money per EV they sell, and it still makes sense by offsetting some of their credit purchase budget.  

Part of the problem is amortizing engineering costs by small sales numbers.  That was never going to make sense.   Getting the sales volume up is key for the majors to make a real go and stop subsidizing Tesla.  But then they need to buy batteries from somewhere, and the supply on those is limited, esp for the cutting edge ones.  Quite a bind.

And the pressure keeps building with the higher CAFE mandates.


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## peakbagger (Mar 18, 2021)

I found one. Delivery next week. When I get  the eventual federal EV credit its the same price as a regular Rav 4 hybrid. Now I need to add some phantom dependents onto my tax withholding so I do not need to wait until next tax season to get a big check back. 

They are just trickling into dealers and most only get one of each model and they are not on the floor long. The early ones seem to all have factory sunroofs but not a lot of other options (they are pretty well equipped to begin with). The one slight downside its just a 120 VAC charger so 12 hours for a  charge. The 240 volt version is only available in the XSE model that are a minimum of $5,000 bucks more.  My guess is when folks get back on the road and with the chip shortage slowing down car sales means it was better now than 6 months from now.

One odd thing is its the second most powerful Toyota car sold when the engine and batteries both being used.


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## woodgeek (Mar 22, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> The one slight downside its just a 120 VAC charger so 12 hours for a  charge. The 240 volt version is only available in the XSE model that are a minimum of $5,000 bucks more.



I assume you mean the external 'charger' or EVSE is 120V only.  You can get a 120/240V portable one for about $100-$150.  I never got why the makers cheap out and give you a crappy 120V only one....I have upgraded a couple over the years.   In fact I have a spare 240V one I can mail you for free from my totalled Bolt.  LOL.

What is the max charging power at 240V?

Google says base model is 4 kW (16A@240V) and the high end trim is 6.6.  Decent.


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## peakbagger (Mar 22, 2021)

Once its in the driveway I will figure it out. Bummer on the Bolt, If the batteries were not trashed keep the wreck and salvage the batteries. I think the reason for 120 VAC is it does not require a 240 VAC plug in the garage. I have 100 amp subpanel with 240 VAC welder plug ready and waiting. 

Here is an interesting question. I live on steep hill that is about 400 feet elevation above the local town. Its got a runaway truck ramp at the bottom. So If I fully charge the battery and then go down the hill, I normally would have regenerative braking to charge up the battery but if its fully charged my guess is the brakes get used?. So I may not want to charge it full so I have some room in the battery when  I Ieave home. 

I think the prime version is 18 KWh battery.  A new toy to figure out


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## woodgeek (Mar 22, 2021)

You're right in general.  Many EVs will use the mechanical brakes over regen when the battery is fully charged.  So, sometimes EVs have a 90% charge setting for this contingency.  But the EPA started to punish makers that did that, by reducing their useable range by 10%, claiming that the makers were inflating their 100% rating and telling users to charge at 90%.  So many EVs now DON'T have that feature in the US (to make the EPA rating maximum) and damn the brakes!

You'll be lucky if the manual explains this.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 22, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> You're right in general.  Many EVs will use the mechanical brakes over regen when the battery is fully charged.  So, sometimes EVs have a 90% charge setting for this contingency.  But the EPA started to punish makers that did that, by reducing their useable range by 10%, claiming that the makers were inflating their 100% rating and telling users to charge at 90%.  So many EVs now DON'T have that feature in the US (to make the EPA rating maximum) and damn the brakes!
> 
> You'll be lucky if the manual explains this.


Bureaucracy at its finest. 

I hope you like the Rav4 Prime, Peakbagger. Our next new vehicle will be similar. I really like the idea of a PHEV being able to power the house in a power outage or if we get solar panels and go off grid.


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## peakbagger (Mar 22, 2021)

There is a company in NH that sells a plug in device for mostly Toyota products to act as a generator.  They have 3KW version and 5 KW version. They output 240 VAC and the kits includes and autotransformer to output 120 Volts. The claim is inveter based generators are more efficient over the long run but using the hybrid based generator is more efficient than a standard generator. I think the kit is around $2,500 bucks. I have 20 year old Generac in my garage that I have never had to hook up for power outage.


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## woodgeek (Mar 23, 2021)

Yeah, I wouldn't pay $2500 for that, or $10-20k for an automatic natgat genny for that matter.  My $500, 1500W sine wave rig on the EV 12V is more than sufficient for my needs, but I have an extended outage about once a year it seems.

Can't wait to hear the user report peakbagger!


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2021)

I'm hatching birds and a power outage could kill the whole hatch or hatched chicks. We have a small generator, but a PHEV could power the whole house. burns gasoline cleaner and more efficiently, and puts out enough power for the whole house.


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## peakbagger (Mar 23, 2021)

5 KW is borderline for house if you have a deep well pump


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> 5 KW is borderline for house if you have a deep well pump



I didn't realize the deep well pump would pull more than 5kw at a time.


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## peakbagger (Mar 23, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> I didn't realize the deep well pump would pull more than 5kw at a time.


If you have a good clampon meter, you can measure the running load and multiply by three to get surge amps. Or the conservative approach is three times nameplate. 

I probably have mentioned before if you have three wire deep well pump (one with capacitor box where the wires go out to well), you can convert the pump to variable speed drive using something call a Franklin Electric monodrive. It effectively gets rid of the surge amp concern. The pump last longer as it rarely ever goes full speed.  If you have one of these, and avoid electric resistance heat, 5KW is plenty for most homes if you get rid of the pump surge load.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 23, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> If you have a good clampon meter, you can measure the running load and multiply by three to get surge amps. Or the conservative approach is three times nameplate.
> 
> I probably have mentioned before if you have three wire deep well pump (one with capacitor box where the wires go out to well), you can convert the pump to variable speed drive using something call a Franklin Electric monodrive. It effectively gets rid of the surge amp concern. The pump last longer as it rarely ever goes full speed.  If you have one of these, and avoid electric resistance heat, 5KW is plenty for most homes if you get rid of the pump surge load.


Thanks, I'll look into it.


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## kennyp2339 (Mar 24, 2021)

peakbagger said:


> I have 20 year old Generac in my garage that I have never had to hook up for power outage.


Y2K?


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## peakbagger (Mar 24, 2021)

kennyp2339 said:


> Y2K?


Post Y2K, There were some great deals all over the place starting on January 2nd 2000 when the lights did not go out.


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## peakbagger (Aug 22, 2022)

Bringing this thread back to life, to post script the potential end of the Prime.  Toyota has burned up all their EV credits and unless folks have a binding offer in place (exactly what counts as binding is TBD) those waiting for one are most likely paying full retail with no $7,500 credit. Primes are built in Japan and will not meet the requirements for the new EV credit. They were so popular that some dealers waiting lists were out into 2023. Reportedly with the loss of credits some folks are getting off the order lists but its likely that unless its delivered soon the owner gets no credit. It will be interesting to see the if demand for them remain. They still will get 45 to 50 mile electric range and stil are very fast with a long range but is that worth effectively a $7,500 premium over a Rav 4 hybrid (gets slightly higher highway mileage, not as quick and no plug in)?

I have been real happy with my second one (first one totaled) and the double EV credit got the price down quite low. I look forward to another 5 years of use and wonder what the car market will look like by then?


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## EbS-P (Aug 22, 2022)

I have a feeling volume production will move stateside for new models. But it could be the end of the line for some.


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## kennyp2339 (Aug 22, 2022)

It may not die out as fast as some think, the subsidy was from the manufacturer, new ev subsidies are being offered by states, and even utilities for car charging at home, I suspect this is just a flat line then there will be another uptick as more ev's become mainstream. Personally, I'm still not buying into ev's yet, to much unknown for me..whats happens when the useful life is up on the battery? Where does one dispose of it and how much will that cost? What are the insurance implications of parking an ev in your homes garage, should there be a battery fire we are being told at the fire dept that we will need approx 8,000 gal of water to cool the battery pack down and also a secure tow yard to literally bury the car and leave it in the ground for a few days to make sure the remaining heat can get dissipated.


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## EbS-P (Aug 22, 2022)

kennyp2339 said:


> It may not die out as fast as some think, the subsidy was from the manufacturer, new ev subsidies are being offered by states, and even utilities for car charging at home, I suspect this is just a flat line then there will be another uptick as more ev's become mainstream. Personally, I'm still not buying into ev's yet, to much unknown for me..whats happens when the useful life is up on the battery? Where does one dispose of it and how much will that cost? What are the insurance implications of parking an ev in your homes garage, should there be a battery fire we are being told at the fire dept that we will need approx 8,000 gal of water to cool the battery pack down and also a secure tow yard to literally bury the car and leave it in the ground for a few days to make sure the remaining heat can get dissipated.


Ford ICEs have been burning down garages/homes for awhile.  I think the number of documented Tesla fires that were not accident related is quite low.  If the fire risk bothers you don’t park any vehicle or store any flammable sun attached garages.  As for the recycling. There’s probably a buck to be made.  Packs like engines are replaceable.  Probably involve much less labor.  So I would imagine the used battery market will open wide up at some point.  









						Study: Hybrids, ICE Cars Far More Likely Than EVs To Catch Fire
					

The data says hybrids are the most prone to catching fire, while EVs are the least prone, although when they do catch fire, they are harder to put out.




					insideevs.com


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## peakbagger (Aug 22, 2022)

It would be interesting if GM would reveal what they did with the Bolt batteries they swapped out, My guess is they got recycled. Lithium is expensive and it far more economical to recycle than to scrap. Barring a design defect, automotive battery packs rarely stop working, rather the performance degrades to the point where they are not good enough for auto use but perfectly functional as stationary batteries. In the case of the prior battery NIMH chemistry a small specialty market developed independent of the factories to rebuild battery packs. I think one of our members does or did that (Tom in Maine).  Several companies have proved that rebuilding and recycling can work but its a chicken and egg situation, not worth developing a secondary market until there are enough batteries to make it worth it. Currently there is a large home brew market building batteries packs out of Volt batteries cells and Nissan Leaf cells. From my observations of the home brew market, the new Chinese cells being used for assembling home battery packs are above and beyond more hazardous than the recycled auto packs. Lots of high profile cases of hand assembled battery packs with dicey chi-com BMS systems burning up. 

Despite lots of PR, the number of battery fires have been quite low and usually a result of abuse or accident. I have not seen any indications that insurance companies regard automotive lithium chemistry cells any more hazardous than cars with tanks full of much more hazardous liquid fuels. I have read that Tesla's in particular have high insurance costs predominantly due to Tesla's business model effectively forcing all repairs to be done in company owned shops.


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## begreen (Aug 22, 2022)

This is why we are hanging on to our Volt.


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## SpaceBus (Aug 23, 2022)

kennyp2339 said:


> It may not die out as fast as some think, the subsidy was from the manufacturer, new ev subsidies are being offered by states, and even utilities for car charging at home, I suspect this is just a flat line then there will be another uptick as more ev's become mainstream. Personally, I'm still not buying into ev's yet, to much unknown for me..whats happens when the useful life is up on the battery? Where does one dispose of it and how much will that cost? What are the insurance implications of parking an ev in your homes garage, should there be a battery fire we are being told at the fire dept that we will need approx 8,000 gal of water to cool the battery pack down and also a secure tow yard to literally bury the car and leave it in the ground for a few days to make sure the remaining heat can get dissipated.


The same can be said about regular cars. Besides having a battery pack instead of a tank of explosive liquid, EVs are pretty much the same as ICE cars. Battery EVs are just the new thing and going to get the most media coverage. Also, there are plenty of industries that don't want EVs to take over, so are incentivized to drag them through the mud. 

EVs catch on fire at a rate of 25/100,000. Meanwhile 1,530 gas powered cars burned for every 100,000 sold. Both statistically speaking and in raw data EVs are much safer from a fire perspective.


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