# What green thing(s) are you doing to contribute?



## dave_dj1 (Mar 30, 2012)

My wife and I recycle. I keep my heat set lower than most. Don't make frivolous trips in the truck any more. Shut lights off when not needed and run cfl's.  When building I try to be as green as I can given the customers budget, needs and wants.

Add your contribution, I'm not judging, just curious.
dave


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## begreen (Mar 30, 2012)

We've been serious recyclers since the early 80's and try to make a lot of food at home instead of buying prepackaged. We make our own bread, yogurt, salads, pancakes, pizza etc.. And we compost all that we can.  That keeps our dump runs down to 3 times a year, recycle runs 6 times a year.We grow a substantial amount of vegetables and fruit that we eat.

Our house got a major energy refit and rehab in 2006 that dropped our energy bill for heating by 4/5ths or 80%. We also bought a Prius that year which knocked our emissions down considerably, and we use public transportation every week. Solar panels went in last summer.


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## jimbom (Mar 31, 2012)

Super insulated house with radiant floors and passive solar since 1991.  100% wood heat this past heating season.  Solar clothes dryer, ie clothes line.


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## jebatty (Mar 31, 2012)

Probably the biggest is 100% wood heat since 1990 (yes, a little electric backup when we take off for a few days). Next is 25% reduction in electricity usage through CFL's, shutting lights and other things off, etc. Recycling, compost, etc. Biggest naysayer is auto use because of living in a rural area, 14 miles from nearest town, and active community life - but the Toyota does get 30+ mpg.


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## fishingpol (Mar 31, 2012)

Recycling, composting( a hot composter is next), using the clothesline in good weather and had more insulation put in the house.  I installed good energy efficient windows a few years back.  I check tire pressure every few weeks for better gas mileage.  We burn seasoned wood cleanly, use a rain barrel, and have a chemical free lawn.  I am not a tree hugger, but I try to instill responsible environmental behavior on the kids.  I wish the neighbors would do more, instead of putting four barrels of trash out every week compared to my one, half full barrel.  I would do more solar, but we have too many crappy cloudy days like today.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 31, 2012)

100 % wood heat. Water 100% heated by wood, CFL lights, Compost to reduce trash, Upgraded insulation,
We don't make very many unnessasry trips in the auto. Will be buying somthing that has better gas milage in the
near future. We recycle some of our trash. I also catch rain water to water the garden. I have lots of trees in my yard, and plant a few each year.


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## woodgeek (Mar 31, 2012)

Since I bought my 1960s vintage house in 2005, DIY airsealing and insulation has dropped my heating and A/C BTU requirement >50%, switched from 1100 gallons of oil heat/yr originally to ~8000 kWh of wind power/yr now (w/ASHP).  Annual savings: ~$3,500 and ~15 tons CO2.  In process of switching DHW from oil to hybrid electric....should save another $1000 and 3 tons CO2 per year.


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## webbie (Mar 31, 2012)

I'd say being vegetarian is our single biggest contribution - haven't done the math, but food production represents a large part of individual energy use. 

Recycling of the basics (paper, cardboard, plastics, glass) has ben mandatory both back in NJ and here in MA.

I'm very light on the gas....really! 

All kidding aside, I think real "greenery" in the end is going to be a society-wide problem and effort. I'm always referring to the charts of "energy use per capita" among the states because some states use double or triple what others do! The larger policies such as building codes, public transit, planning and CAFE MPG seem to make even more of a difference than turning off a light bulb. 

As old housing stock is replaced or upgraded, the efficiency goes way up. Same with appliances, furnaces, water heaters, cars, etc.
Even never jets use much less fuel per passenger mile.


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## semipro (Mar 31, 2012)

We do many of the things already mentioned.  Along the lines of what webbie said, I think many underestimate the impact of what they eat and where it comes from. 
Commercial meat production really takes a heavy toll on the environment when compared to production of other food sources.

I don't think it has been mentioned yet... we try to buy American and to buy local. Many countries don't have the environmental controls on production that we do.
I even consider this when buying things like beer.  Though I love many imported beers, I try to buy the local stuff, in cans if possible, to cut down on the energy and pollution created during transport. 
Many think that beer from a bottle is best but beer makers point out that its light that degrades beer and cans block light.


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## dave_dj1 (Mar 31, 2012)

For those of you that compost, do you have a problem with critters? Skunks and others?


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## Dune (Mar 31, 2012)

dave_dj1 said:


> For those of you that compost, do you have a problem with critters? Skunks and others?


 
No, but I have a 100 pound alaskan malamute.


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## nate379 (Mar 31, 2012)

To be honest I really don't care about being "green", it's more about saving money.  Turn off the lights, keep the nat gas heat low, drive a fuel efficient car, etc.
I drive around 2000 miles a month, fuel is about $200 in my 45mpg diesel car.

To recycle here you have to pay in extra in addition to having to have trash pickup.  I either burn my trash it or toss in the dumpster at work.
I do "recycle" used oils from my garage I guess though, one of my friends heats his place with it so I give it to him.  I only have a 5 gal pail every couple months though.


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## chuckie5fingers (Mar 31, 2012)

we burn wood in the winter, use CFL's in our house. I take military showers whenever I can (you know, get wet turn the shower off then lather up and wash the hair and then water back on to rinse off. We also have a high effenciency washer and dryer. I guess I could use a wash tub like my grandparents did. LOL.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 31, 2012)

CFLs (Which I have found to be a rip. Cost a ton and don't last for squat), burn wood, drive an average of twenty five miles a month, total electric and the bill is a hundred a month or less. Buy five year old computers that were headed for the landfill. Ain't touching anything that was ever green and leafy but I moved from Texas just so webbie wouldn't be pissed at me for the per capita energy consumption. 

Biggest recycle effort last year was selling three thousand pounds of computer power cords to a metals recycler. And a whole bunch of aluminum beer cans.


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## nate379 (Mar 31, 2012)

I put all CFLs in my house when I moved in over 3 years ago, so far have only had 1 that I have replaced.  My electric bill runs about $60/month.


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## begreen (Mar 31, 2012)

The first gen CFLs sucked. Even the major brand's didn't last. But lately I am getting good life out or our CFLs. They seemed to have worked a lot of the bugs and overheating issues out. I date my bulbs and find that our kitchen lights are lasting a bit longer than the halogens I used to use there, about 2.5 years. These lights are on a lot and in warm recessed cans. Now I get them in 4 or 6 packs and they are actually cheaper than the halogen floods they replaced. We have a CFL in a reading lamp in the living room that is going on year 4 now. It's on every night from dark until about 2am.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 31, 2012)

Not hard to tell when a CFL craps out. I am learning to recognize that smell instantly. Yuck! the first couple of times I was afraid the main panel in the basement was on fire.


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## johnny1720 (Mar 31, 2012)

Geothermal Water to Air Furnace, completely stopped using fuel oil.  I have a pellet stove that I use as a backup.  I stopped driving my Jeep Wrangler that got 14 MPG to work and started driving a small Nissan that gets 28 MPG.  Replaced 75% of the light bulbs in the house with CFL and installed a ton of insulation into this house.  I went from originally burning 1500 gallons of fuel oil to burning none.  When redoing this house we bought real hardwood flooring and real tile.  We did not want the chemicals from the fake stuff in our home.  We replaced about 30 of the 100 year old windows and replaced them with energy efficient ones.  

We will be purchasing a share of a local co-op garden to off set the purchases from the grocery store.


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## btuser (Mar 31, 2012)

I pee outdoors.

Every chance I get.


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## PapaDave (Mar 31, 2012)

+1 on the peeing outdoors. If the dogs can do it.......
Cfl's for the past 4 years or so, and only 1 has crapped out. We live about 30-35 miles from the nearest large-ish city, so we only recycle oil from the machinery. USUALLY one grocery trip/month, sometimes a bit longer to save gas. My wife does a weekly "stitch and groan" with some friends that uses a bit of gas.
Electric use is 250-300 kWh/month normally, but that's taken the last 5 years to get that low (my wife likes convenience ), and the only nat. gas is to heat the water we use. That bill is 11-12 ccf/month.
Solar clothes dryer in the summer, and the heavy stuff gets put in the stove room to dry in the winter. Most stuff is on power strips.
Trying to get the garden going this year.
Um, ....we burn some wood in the winter.
Laptops for both of us, and the bigscreen is used infrequently to watch a movie, either streamed, rented from the library, or borrowed from my nephew.
Only one or two bags of trash/week, and we're going back to a 2 yard dump bin since it'll be cheaper and only need to be emptied once every 2-3 months.
BB, I didn't notice a smell, but the one cfl that died flickered for a couple days and lost brightness before it died.
I use a Kuerig coffee maker that our son got me for Christmas. I got the little filter container to use regular coffee instead of the k-cups. That thing warms up and makes 2 cups of coffee faster than the regular maker. Very efficient.
None of this is really difficult, it just requires a change of habits.


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## Pallet Pete (Mar 31, 2012)

As I personally don't believe in the green movement ( no insult meant to anyone ) but instead believe in taking care of gods earth I keep it clean. I do the rest as more of a cost saving effort for our family such as energy bulbs and fixtures . We insulated which lowered our gas and wood consumption as well as noise from outside. I suppose the biggest energy saver has been the wood stove because it drastically lowered our gas usage. I like to recycle simply because it nags me to throw perfectly good plastic and glass in the ground that could still be used for something we are the same about our belongings and donate what we do not want to charity's.

Pete


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## begreen (Mar 31, 2012)

Pete, it's the same whether you believe in a movement or not. Acting wisely and treating the finite resources of this incredible planet with respect is a great way to start. It's kind of like the opposite of littering which implies one doesn't give a damn and a willingness to make it someone else's problem. For me I just try to live conscientiously and smarter and wait for the day when society as a whole does the same. I don't attend green meetings or belong to clubs. But I do keep an ear and eye open for new solutions and bright ideas.


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## Pallet Pete (Mar 31, 2012)

Very well put Begreen ! 

Pete


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## nate379 (Mar 31, 2012)

The thread made my remember what my Pepere (grandfather) used to do.... the old days weren't so green I think.

Tractor, trucks, car (he was a farmer) needed an oil change?  Pull it over the ditch, drop the plug and let it drain to the ground.  Asked him about it one day and he said "it comes from the ground, what harm is there with putting it back".
I think after a while he did start to put it in buckets though.  Kept on it about it.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 31, 2012)

dave_dj1 said:


> For those of you that compost, do you have a problem with critters? Skunks and others?


 
No.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 31, 2012)

We compost what we don't feed the chickens. We also compost the waste produced by the chickens, garden waste, and large amounts of leaves. We grow a lot of our own food which also means we can. I do not drive, we have a car that is 8 years old and I haven't looked lately but I doubt if there is much over 65,000 miles on it. The house has with 5 exceptions all CFL lights, all five of the exceptions are rarely used. Pellets have replaced our 600 gallons of oil for space heating and I keep looking at the DHW and I'm not quite certain I can break even yet going to electric.

I'm currently making 18 panels of interior storms (well I have almost all of the parts needed), the goal is to cut a ton of pellets or better per year as well as even out the temperatures on the main floor.

I hope to get electrical usage down to an average of 400kWh/month.

We don't do it to be green, we are cheap ornery old Yankees and can really put the squeeze on the buffalo (that is how we pay for our vices).

We try to do the reduce, reuse, and recycle in that order.

ETA: For some of my vices consult the last line in my signature.

YAE: We stopped using hot water to wash clothes in years ago, and when our old washer sprung a leak we bought a new He model.


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## begreen (Mar 31, 2012)

Frugality used to be considered a national virtue. As did the ability to make some wicked homebrew.


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## Pallet Pete (Apr 1, 2012)

. 





nate379 said:


> The thread made my remember what my Pepere (grandfather) used to do.... the old days weren't so green I think.
> 
> Tractor, trucks, car (he was a farmer) needed an oil change?  Pull it over the ditch, drop the plug and let it drain to the ground.  Asked him about it one day and he said "it comes from the ground, what harm is there with putting it back".
> I think after a while he did start to put it in buckets though.  Kept on it about it.




When I was little my father put a new engine in our family car and didn't know what to do with the old one that was dead. So instead of keeping the good parts and scrapping the rest he dug a hole and threw it in ! A couple of years ago he dug it back up and cleaned all the dirt off and to his surprise it looked like it was still in good shape 25 years later lol ! He probably looked crazy as he used a cherry picker and a chain fall off the back of his truck to lift it out of the ground ( chain fall was holding the cherry picker in the truck ) lol. 

Pete


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## dave_dj1 (Apr 1, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> Not hard to tell when a CFL craps out. I am learning to recognize that smell instantly. Yuck! the first couple of times I was afraid the main panel in the basement was on fire.


What is the smell? Like an electrical fire?
thanks,
dave


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## DBoon (Apr 1, 2012)

What everyone else said already....plus - we try to avoid buying anything new, or even anything used if we don't need it, or if it won't reduce our costs (energy or otherwise) over time.  Learning to understand the difference between needs versus wants, and restraining purchases accordingly, is one of the keys.  It's not only green, but it is also profoundly liberating in a lot of ways.


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## Ehouse (Apr 1, 2012)

According to my 8 year old girl scout, if you fill a 1pt. 9oz. plastic water bottle half way, that is the amt. of oil it takes to make that bottle.  Therefore, I will be installing whole house filters and a small UV unit to wean wife and said daughter from their addiction.

Ehouse


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## jimbom (Apr 1, 2012)

dave_dj1 said:


> For those of you that compost, do you have a problem with critters? Skunks and others?


Critters and skunks take a little longer, but still compost out pretty well.  With the others, I try to remove the plastic ID, shoes, and belts.


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## Dune (Apr 1, 2012)

DBoon said:


> What everyone else said already....plus - we try to avoid buying anything new, or even anything used if we don't need it, or if it won't reduce our costs (energy or otherwise) over time. Learning to understand the difference between needs versus wants, and restraining purchases accordingly, is one of the keys. It's not only green, but it is also profoundly liberating in a lot of ways.


 
Likewise, I reuse or repurpose or recycle constantly. I have replaced all my exterior doors with good used ones, including my slider.
I insulated my rim joists with closed cell foam re-sawed from broken dock floats. Because it was free, I made them 4" thick for best effect. I re-insulated my attic with fiberglass salvaged from a motel being renovated. I built my boiler and the rest of my hydronic system from mostly reused parts, with the exception of fittings needed in the nick of time,
going so far as to purchase a bucket of ball valves, a heat exchanger and many lengths of copper pipe from the junkyard, and several superstor tanks from the warranty pile at the plumbing supply, which I then repaired. I am presently building a solar hot water panel which will be at least 90% salvaged.

Repurposing/reconditioning works very well for me, since I have a complete machine shop/fabshop on my property and worked over the years (and aquired tools for) virtually every building trade. Further, being self employed, I can fill my down time with such projects.

I had an apprentice who one day questioned why we were wasting time fixing an old free cement mixer. When we were mixing concrete in it less than four hours and zero dollars later, his tune had changed.


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## billb3 (Apr 2, 2012)

dave_dj1 said:


> For those of you that compost, do you have a problem with critters? Skunks and others?


Yes, although it's not always obvious.
Seeds from squash disappear. Bread disappears.
With a light snow cover I find raccoon prints. Not quite sure what they take. Squirrels take the bread.
I'm not feeding squirrels if I can help it so I'm thinking of getting a food grade barrel and making a compost barrel mostly for kitchen scraps.
I haven't seen any signs of mice or  other animals. With no snow to capture foot prints who knows what comes and goes any other time of year.
I take a 25 foot roll of fence in a circle for a compost pile and can fill three of those in a Summer  with lawn clippings and leaves.


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## begreen (Apr 2, 2012)

Dune, you need a blog with photos. You're doing great man.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Apr 2, 2012)

billb3 said:


> Yes, although it's not always obvious.
> Seeds from squash disappear. Bread disappears.
> With a light snow cover I find raccoon prints. Not quite sure what they take. Squirrels take the bread.
> I'm not feeding squirrels if I can help it so I'm thinking of getting a food grade barrel and making a compost barrel mostly for kitchen scraps.
> ...


 

Squirrels, mice, rats, chipmunks, and various birds will take seeds and bread, here no large seeds or bread make it to the compost pile.  The egg layers get that stuff.  I also cover fresh stuff with a bit of dirt.  If you keep the "good" stuff as the bottom all of the time most animals stay away.

I reuse pellet pallets to make my bins.


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## Jags (Apr 2, 2012)

I have planted more than enough trees to compensate for all of my co2 output.  Burn wood for heat.  Re-use, repurpose, rebuild much old stuff (more of a hobby than a movement).  Garden.  Working on improving the house envelope.  Pee outside.


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## firebroad (Apr 2, 2012)

CFL's have been in my house for 6 years, have not had a burnout. I think it has to do with the wiring, my electric was updated to 240 when I moved here. Before that house ran on 2 fuses.
Composting, paper metal and glass recycling, use gray water for outside watering, but don't have rain barrel yet. Keep TV to a minimum, raise my own vegetables, and try to keep my money local by supporting local vendors (does that count?). I make my own bread, buy in bulk, and only go the the grocery store once a month (I live alone), and even then it is in conjunction with another errand. In fact, unless it is an emergency, I rarely make a trip for one item. I only have one vehicle. My house was chosen because it is small, easy to insulate (invested in some serious insulation) and kept in good repair.
I could go on, but the bottom line is I have always subscribed to this mantra, even though the derision of others goes in and out of vogue over the decade:
Use it up,
Wear it out;
Make it do
Or do without.


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## Jags (Apr 2, 2012)

firebroad said:


> and try to keep my money local by supporting local vendors (does that count?).


 
Heck yeah it counts.  "Keep it local" is catching on.


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## billb3 (Apr 2, 2012)

Due to recycling so much, it has taken me as long as three months to fill a 13 gallon bag of trash to put out.
We've even avoided purchases due to too much plastic or the packaging being #8 or #9 (or not marked at all) which isn't in the recycling program here.
My front lawn was a garden years ago and I'm slowly turning it back to one again. Cutting less and less lawn.
Planting dogwood trees close to the house so the roof doesn't get shaded for solar DHW panels and maybe even some day PV.  I've even planted trees on my neighbor's property. Some I buy to be further along sooner, most I just transplant from the woods.


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## Dune (Apr 2, 2012)

begreen said:


> Dune, you need a blog with photos. You're doing great man.


 
Thanks BG, I have been thinking about a blog for a while. I need a new computer, I can barely keep this one going anymore.
I have to restart it several times a day, and it has a redirect virus that makes google very time consuming and frustrating.
Thanks for the kudos, that helps a lot.


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## lukem (Apr 2, 2012)

I have pretty much 100% wood heat.

I hang my clothes up in the basement (where the stove is) in the winter and outside during the summer.  Haven't used the dryer in years.  This is for a family of 6!!

I grow a garden, 100% organic.  No pesticides or fertilizer.  I don't buy hardly any produce anymore (pesticides, fertilizer) unless we are completely out.  I'm still working on tomatoes, peppers, green beans, and broccoli from last season.

I fix things rather than throwing them away and buying another.

Putting a couple deer in the freezer every fall has to be greener than buying beef.

I've started raising my own "nearly free range" chickens with my FIL (and neighbor).  They eat all the organic scraps, left-overs, grass, bugs, seeds, etc they can find and only get a little feed each day.  Basically anything that isn't a rock and didn't have a mother goes to the chickens.

My truck is a gas hog, but enables me to do most of what is described above, so that's how I rationalize having it.


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## Slow1 (Apr 2, 2012)

Much the same list of things here... Not sure it is a "green" thing, being "furgal/cheap" or what... but it is what it is.

I avoid buying anything new if possible - or buying things when possible.  Reusing things is best, from the obvious things down to washing plastic utensils for kids lunches.  Have found a nice pile of kitchen cloths handy for just about everything one uses paper towels for and thus we rarely buy paper towels anymore.  

We recycle what we can - lucky for us that we have curbside pickup of most recycling (rinse and place in bins every other week pickup next to trash) so it is really easy.

Have worms to compost year-round, but they have a limited appetite as we only have 2 bins of them.  They do eat all the coffee grounds and most veggies, but with 6 in the family we generate some overflow that lands in the trash in the winter.  In the summer this overflow goes into the backyard compost pile.

Laundry is washed in cold, and we dry clothes on lines either outside when weather is dry and warm or inside the rest of the time (by the stove essentially).  This has reduced our dryer (electric) use to only a few times a year for "finishing" loads or when guests visit.

Heating is mostly wood now like many of you.  Oil still heats our DWH - working on finding another solution for that one... 

We reduced our electric use in the house in many ways from cutting our computers from several desktops down to one notbook that is on most of the time (occassional second or third when needed).  I believe most of our light bulbs have been replaced now with CFLs and the heaviest used lights are now being upgraded to LED bulbs.  Family is well trained to turn off lights and other appliances when not in use.  TV (rarely used anyway) is on a power strip.  Many other measures taken - hard to remember or list them all... Overall we've taken what used to be over 1000Kwh/mo down to less than 475Kwh/mo average in usage.  Still improving this..  Solar panels went up last fall and have been generating an excess for us which is nice, hopefully that will continue and we can choose where to put this energy to good use in the future.

Driving we keep to necessary, but this is where I'm sure we can improve.  I'd like to drive a plug-in hybred if/when they come down in price, but cost is a major issue.  We drive cars and maintain them the best we can until they are unreasonable to keep up.  That seems to have been around 200K miles for us so we have a few more years on each of our cars before we have to replace them again.  Perhaps the options will be better by then.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 2, 2012)

We stopped havin kids.


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## btuser (Apr 3, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> We stopped havin kids.


 
That's the big one.  Kids are great but even with an inexaustable engergy supply we can't keep going the way we're going.


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## semipro (Apr 3, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> We stopped havin kids.


 
We stopped at 2 for this reason. 
If everyone wanting kids stopped at 2 we'd have a net population decrease.


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## btuser (Apr 3, 2012)

semipro said:


> We stopped at 2 for this reason.
> If everyone wanting kids stopped at 2 we'd have a net population decrease.


 
We had one, and I'm not even sure it was the ol' fashioned method.  I swear my wife cloned herself to out-flank me.


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## begreen (Apr 3, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> Much the same list of things here... Not sure it is a "green" thing, being "furgal/cheap" or what... but it is what it is.
> 
> I avoid buying anything new if possible - or buying things when possible. Reusing things is best, from the obvious things down to washing plastic utensils for kids lunches. Have found a nice pile of kitchen cloths handy for just about everything one uses paper towels for and thus we rarely buy paper towels anymore.


 
Frugality used to be considered an important and patriotic virtue. One doesn't have to be obsessive to abhor waste.


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## sesmith (Apr 3, 2012)

semipro said:


> We stopped at 2 for this reason.
> If everyone wanting kids stopped at 2 we'd have a net population decrease.


We tried.  We already had one.  The next one was twins and we couldn't decide which one to put back so we kept them both.


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## BrianK (Apr 3, 2012)

Pallet Pete said:


> As I personally don't believe in the green movement ( no insult meant to anyone ) but instead believe in taking care of gods earth I keep it clean. I do the rest as more of a cost saving effort for our family such as energy bulbs and fixtures .


 
Amen. Thank you.


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## BrianK (Apr 3, 2012)

semipro said:


> We stopped at 2 for this reason.
> If everyone wanting kids stopped at 2 we'd have a net population decrease.


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## BrianK (Apr 3, 2012)

We ran a solar domestic hot water heating system for several years, but disassembled it a while back due to renovations.

(I'm a conservationist, not an environmentalist. I conserve God's creation, but I don't worship it. Too much of the green movement makes a religion out of environmentalism.)


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## woodgeek (Apr 4, 2012)

While its great that so many here are doing their part, I find it fascinating the number of folks who feel the need to disavow any 'green' motivation, instead appealing to the more palatable 'frugality'. In 2012, being green is about new technology and business opportunities and money, ROI and NPV, not about wearing a tie-died shirt and professing your love for Gaia. Our young people are taking classes in green tech and making careers of it, not skipping class and having sit-ins on Earth Day.

So I guess our motto is 'love the CFLs, hate the hippies'?

Ignore the media and its fascination with scandals and dippy folks on the fringe....break out your spreadsheets, figure our some ROIs for different ways of meeting your needs (and wants), and then help someone else figure it out.

Bottom line is that green tech did not drop from the sky, nor is it a product of pure capitalism....we got it after decades of good public policy: govt sponsored research, as well as tax breaks and regulatory incentives for the big businesses that did the heavy lifting. Dick Nixon did as much to create the green movement when he formed the EPA as all those hippies he hated. And the young people I meet don't care about Nixon or hippies...green is in their DNA now.

Disclaimer: I am wearing a tie-die shirt right now.


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## semipro (Apr 4, 2012)

BrianK said:


>


BrianK, Have you read this?  If so what was the premise and was it a good read?


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## semipro (Apr 4, 2012)

I think too many people get hung up on being associated with a movement based on who's involved.

Whether you call it "green" "conservatism" "ecology" "environmental" or whatever, its just working towards created a sustainable society where we don't trash our only home to the point where future generations of humans can enjoy it as we did.

We can try to save "nature" or "gaia" or whatever all we want but it will survive long after humans have killed themselves off.

Hopefully we're getting smart enough to realize that when we try to preserve ecosystems, species, whales, bees, mountains or whatever, its all ultimately in the best interest of humans....no matter what you label it.


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## BrianK (Apr 4, 2012)

semipro said:


> BrianK, Have you read this? If so what was the premise and was it a good read?


I have not yet read the book but I've read articles by and about the same author, and other books on the same subject. There is a growing body of evidence that the biggest problem facing us is not overpopulation but a looming population crash due to below replacement birth rates not only in the first world but also soon in most third world countries. It is a basic premise of "orthodox" economists that it is impossible to have a growing economy in the absence of a growing population base. A consumer economy is based on consumers. No new consumers being born into an economy = economic stagnation, recession or depression.

By 2050 world population will likely start collapsing because by current trends at that point all nations in the world will be at below replacement level fertility and the increases in life expectancy due to modern medicine and hygiene and farming techniques will have maxed out.

Mankind has never experienced global population decline so no one knows what will happen socially or economically. At a minimum we'll probably have several decades of economic depression as supply outstrips demand and the global economy adjusts.

This goes way too far into "politics and religion" for a forum such as this one. If you'd like to discuss it further offline I'd be happy to do so.


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## semipro (Apr 4, 2012)

BrianK said:


> I have not yet read the book but I've read articles by and about the same author, and other books on the same subject. There is a growing body of evidence that the biggest problems facing us is not overpopulation but a looming population crash due to below replacement birth rates not only in the first world but also soon in most third world countries. It is a basic premise of "orthodox" economists that it is impossible to have a growing economy in the absence of a growing population base. A consumer economy is based on consumers. No new consumers being born into an economy = economic stagnation, recession or depression.
> 
> By 2050 world population will likely start collapsing because by current trends at that point all nations in the world will be at below replacement level fertility and the increases in life expectancy due to modern medicine and hygiene and farming techniques will have maxed out.
> 
> ...


 
I'll look it up as this argument seems to run counter to conventional understanding (which I"m necessarily a fan of). 

This subject always makes me wonder why "growth" (as in a growing economy) seems always to be perceived as a good thing.
Stasis may be highly underrated.


----------



## Jags (Apr 4, 2012)

semipro said:


> Stasis may be highly underrated.


 
Ha - I have always wondered who gets to decide what is "just right".  This goes for temps, population, taxes, etc.

But....back on track.  I still pee outside.


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## semipro (Apr 4, 2012)

Jags said:


> But....back on track. I still pee outside.


 
As do I.


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## BrianK (Apr 4, 2012)

Jags said:


> Ha - I have always wondered who gets to decide what is "just right". This goes for temps, population, taxes, etc.


 
“The answer to anyone who talks about the surplus population is to ask him, whether he is part of the surplus population; or if not, how he knows he is not.” [1925]
~~G. K. Chesterton


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## btuser (Apr 4, 2012)

Some folks will lose as the population declines.  Real estate agents come to mind.   You can definately grow an economy with a decreasing population if you have gains in efficiency and production.  One person on an excavator can do the digging of 100 hungry shovels.  A decrease in consumption is not the end of the world.  Perpetual inflation is not progress.


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## BrianK (Apr 4, 2012)

semipro said:


> I'll look it up as this argument seems to run counter to conventional understanding (which I"m necessarily a fan of).


 
Here's a collection of links to books on the subject: *The greatest threat facing mankind is...*


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## btuser (Apr 4, 2012)

semipro said:


> As do I.



Don't cross the streams!


----------



## BrianK (Apr 4, 2012)

semipro said:


> Stasis may be highly underrated.


 
Stasis defined was the Great Depression. I've talked to too many who lived through the Great Depression to believe stasis is highly underrated.


----------



## Slow1 (Apr 4, 2012)

I avoid the "Green" label simple due to the baggage of being associated to so many foolish folks who buy every little product with a "green" logo on it thinking they are saving the planet.  Mindless consumers of a trend to try and buy their way into a movement or out of some perceived guilt.  

I don't have a firm opinion on man's role in global climate change - I've read some summaries of studies etc, and so much evidence exists to support various causes.  My conclusion on this front is that it really doesn't matter much to me as I don't need the threat of some disaster to realize that waste is bad or conservation is good.  There are tangible benefits even if there isn't a human role in global warming if we can utilize renewable energy sources so why not do it anyway?  I'm not going to go run off and buy "carbon offset credits" when I fly though - that just doesn't make any sense to me and no matter how I look at it is seems like a waste of my resources that could be better spent elsewhere.  If I feel bad about the CO2 released on my flight, perhaps I could spend the money on insulating my home better or something, but to pay some agency to plant a tree somewhere? I could plant trees here... likely with less overhead, bah.

I have four kids, but they are small so they don't eat much   Seriously though - we are raising them to be reasonable people.  They turn off lights, minimize waste, etc.  Our overall energy use based on stats I could find on google is considerably less than the average, and we generate less waste (trash) than the average I believe based on what I see on the curb for pickup each trash day...  So although we have a large family, I'm not sure we are making a significantly larger impact than the average _American_ family.  Of course that is quite a biased standard to hold eh?  Somehow I doubt we'd compare as well on a global standard, but again - we aren't hermits and I suppose we do have to contribute to the 'consumer' economy in some way.

I believe in continuous improvement and that every little bit helps.  Thus I read this forum (and others) when I have time.  I really appreciate the sharing of ideas and I take them as suggestions at times.  

Practical ideas I may well try out - right now I'm trying to figure out how to grow some tomatoes in the house during the winter as my family has quite the appetite for them... not sure how the economics of grow lights will work out.  Not all the ideas are so practical once evaluated though eh?


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## semipro (Apr 4, 2012)

btuser said:


> Don't cross the streams!


 
Hah BTuser.  I've noticed your posts have become much more "animated" since you changed your avatar to "Brain".


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## semipro (Apr 4, 2012)

BrianK said:


> Stasis defined was the Great Depression. I've talked to too many who lived through the Great Depression to believe stasis is highly underrated.


 
I don't think many would classify the Great Depression as "stasis".   That was a severe decline.


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## BrianK (Apr 4, 2012)

semipro said:


> I don't think many would classify the Great Depression as "stasis". That was a severe decline.


That's a valid point. On the other hand, Japan's economic malaise is directly related to their demographics. This is also, or will be soon, true of Greece, Italy, and numerous other Asian and European nations.






Given current demographic trends, the "low" fertility assumption is by far the most likely, and even it may be too high.



By the way, since I'm in the medical field, "stasis" always has a negative connotation for me. "Venous stasis," "stasis dermatitis," "stasis ulcer," "gastrointestinal stasis," etc.


----------



## BrianK (Apr 4, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> In 2012, being green is about new technology and business opportunities and money, ROI and NPV....break out your spreadsheets, figure our some ROIs for different ways of meeting your needs (and wants), and then help someone else figure it out.
> 
> Bottom line is that green tech did not drop from the sky, nor is it a product of pure capitalism....we got it after decades of good public policy: govt sponsored research, as well as tax breaks and regulatory incentives for the big businesses that did the heavy lifting. Dick Nixon did as much to create the green movement when he formed the EPA as all those hippies he hated. And the young people I meet don't care about Nixon or hippies...green is in their DNA now.


 
Spain is_* the*_ global leader in green energy policy, industry and infrastructure. Its working out just swell for them. 

See also The Myth of Green Energy Jobs: The European Experience


----------



## woodgeek (Apr 4, 2012)

^^^ Don't really care for the european model of green development....having more solar panels in cloudy Germany than sunny SoCal makes no sense to me...and the UK seems to have a big energy crunch coming down the pipe. I am more a fan of things like EPA pollution regulations, which have made us all more healthy, CAFE standards which have saved us all $$ individually and as a nation, the cumulative effects of EnergyStar in basic appliance innovations, and the EPA getting us all more efficient woodstoves. I think all of the above programs could be improved/expanded, but hey, our system requires some compromise with folks who disagree.

Whether you believe in green jobs or not (not to mention whether the govt can 'create' them), the fortune 500 know that they can make more money with more efficient processes and infrastructure, esp with the current expensive oil environment. Our schools are teaching green to our young engineers across disciplines, and the 500 are hiring them.


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## sesmith (Apr 5, 2012)

I've done most of the things others have mentioned...drive a small car, live in a smaller house that's many years old (extreme recycling?) and has been improved (by me) as far as air sealing, insulation, windows and doors, electrical and plumbing systems and many other things, used as much locally harvested lumber for as many of my projects as possible and did them mostly myself including our cherry kitchen cabinets, cut my own firewood for many years, built a solar air heater, installed a gshp, cfl and led lighting, turn things off, recycle and compost, buy locally produced wind power for all our electricity, and pay property taxes on our woodlot, which offsets enough carbon to offset ours and probably at least one or two more families, and like to ride a bike the hilly 25 mile round trip to work most days.

Call me "green" if you want, but I'm basically a cheap s.o.b. that enjoys the outdoors and loves the woods and open spaces where I live, and want to do all I can to keep it that way.

As far as the number of kids go...I do agree that the world is getting way too many humans in it. However, if kid #7 of someone's family grows up and changes the world for the better, I'm not going to get up on a soap box and tell them they had too many kids


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## begreen (Apr 5, 2012)

Careful. Soap can be slippery.


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## jimbom (Apr 5, 2012)

BrianK said:


> ...On the other hand, Japan's economic malaise is directly related to their demographics....


*Misleading.* Japan's economic malaise is directly related to government debt. Debt piled up by unfettered government spending. I personally have worked with government agencies while in Japan. The country is the definition of bureaucratic over reaching. I personally know young Japanese college graduates that now work in the part time job sector because of lack of job prospects. I personally have had a young visitor within the past year from Japan that asked me for help and advice regarding getting a permanent position in Japan. I personally have met with and discussed the debt crisis in Japan with a political counterpart in Japan within the past ten years. Anybody believing demographics is the cause of Japan's economic malaise seriously needs to educate themselves.

Part of the decline in birth rates in Japan may be traced to individuals that can not afford to marry and start a family. Part to married people unsure of prospects for children. Part to women that do not want to get married and start families. Lack of jobs and future prospects are a product of irresponsible government spending in Japan.


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## btuser (Apr 5, 2012)

I agree. You can't blame Japan's economic supposed woes on the birth rate, and as you point it could be an effect rather than a cause. You can still grow an economy as long as the younger generation is more productive AND HAS THE BUYING POWER FOR PRODUCTS AND SERVICES!!. Their unwillingness to cut their losses after their credit bubble ran straight into the rise of China, India and every other country where labor was cheaper.  As far as the lack of jobs, blame the robots they make.  I don't see how their debt can be seen as the problem. If anything they can't print fast enough as a strong yen makes it harder to export. Do they have a hard time selling debt?

Japan is one of the least wasteful cultures I can think of.  They do a lot with a little.


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## BrianK (Apr 5, 2012)

btuser said:


> I agree. You can't blame Japan's economic supposed woes on the birth rate


 
On the contrary, the effects of Japan's post WWII fertility collapse have been studied and acknowledged for 40 years now. Start here:
*Economics of postwar fertility in Japan: Differentials and trends*


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## BrianK (Apr 5, 2012)

jimbom said:


> *Misleading.* Japan's economic malaise is directly related to government debt.


 
There is a significant body of scholarly literature that would indicate otherwise.


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## begreen (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't socialize anymore. Saves a ton of driving.  I just live virtually now.


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## jimbom (Apr 5, 2012)

We cannot ignore the debt. These figures were before the tsunami and nuclear power plant meltdown.
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/774/economics/list-of-national-debt-by-country/
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2186.html#175
Having fewer children did not cause Japan to amass the largest debt/GDP in the world. The interest on their debt is low, but still an astonishing drag on the economy. This anemic economy generates less tax revenue exacerbating the problem.

My only point is it is misleading to point to demographics causing economic downward spirals.  Birthrates respond in part to economic conditions more than drive economic conditions.

Massive debt ruins families, businesses, and countries.  Any scholar who says, tut tut there common person, "You really don't understand how things work." is a charlatan.


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## SolarAndWood (Apr 5, 2012)

I complimented my 11 year old 11 mpg truck with a 6 year old 40+ mpg car tonight.  While it was primarily an economic decision, eliminating 800 gallons of needless fuel consumption a year also feels good.  It also means that I will replace the consumption and maintenance of a 3 ton truck with a diesel powered car half its weight.


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## Wingman (Apr 6, 2012)

I of course burn wood, locally sourced.  Recently replaced all of our windows with efficient ones.  Use rain barrels for watering edible and non edible gardens.  Compost most all food scraps.  When running the dish washer, set a timer to go off around the time the drying cycle starts, then turn it off and open for air drying.  CFL's.  If its not being used, shut it down.  Purchasing fruits and veggies at the local Farmers market, cloth diapering, kid clothes sharing between family and friends.

Projects in the works:  Solar can heater, solar hot water, basement air sealing, energy audit, outside clothes rack, add more attic insulation.


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## btuser (Apr 6, 2012)

begreen said:


> I don't socialize anymore. Saves a ton of driving. I just live virtually now.


 
High Five!

That didn't work out well.  Now I'm self-conscious.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Apr 6, 2012)

begreen said:


> I don't socialize anymore. Saves a ton of driving. I just live virtually now.


 

Welcome to the world of lot hermits and be careful about the sites you visit.


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## begreen (Apr 6, 2012)

Sites?  You mean there's more than Hearth.com?


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## lukem (Apr 6, 2012)

SolarAndWood said:


> I complimented my 11 year old 11 mpg truck with a 6 year old 40+ mpg car tonight. While it was primarily an economic decision, eliminating 800 gallons of needless fuel consumption a year also feels good. It also means that I will replace the consumption and maintenance of a 3 ton truck with a diesel powered car half its weight.


 
TDI?  My BIL just got a '03 Jetta TDI and he's getting about 48 mpg.  I'm jealous.


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## btuser (Apr 6, 2012)

BrianK said:


> There is a significant body of scholarly literature that would indicate otherwise.


 
Poppy-cock.

A condition is not the cause.


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## semipro (Apr 6, 2012)

BrianK said:


> That's a valid point. On the other hand, Japan's economic malaise is directly related to their demographics. This is also, or will be soon, true of Greece, Italy, and numerous other Asian and European nations.
> 
> Given current demographic trends, the "low" fertility assumption is by far the most likely, and even it may be too high.
> 
> By the way, since I'm in the medical field, "stasis" always has a negative connotation for me. "Venous stasis," "stasis dermatitis," "stasis ulcer," "gastrointestinal stasis," etc.


 
Instead of "stasis" let's call it "steady state" or "stability" or "equilibrium" then. 

There's no disputing that age demographics will temporarily affect a nation's finances. 
Continued growth of a tax base will always help increase the bottom line. 
Our country's population growth has no doubt allowed us to live above our needs within a financial model that is basically not sustainable in the long term.
As long as we predicate fiscal viability on growth we'll have to be prepared to weather the downturns also.
Our society won't truly be sustainable, in the broad sense of the word, until we can establish sound financial policy *without* reliance upon "growth".


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## semipro (Apr 6, 2012)

BrianK said:


> Spain is_* the*_ global leader in green energy policy, industry and infrastructure. Its working out just swell for them.
> 
> See also The Myth of Green Energy Jobs: The European Experience


 
It is, however, working great for Germany though? 
I understand causal statistics well enough not to draw such conclusions. Economics are very complex with many drivers. 
I don't give much credence to sources such as the one cited here either. They're hardly objective on this subject.


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## SolarAndWood (Apr 6, 2012)

lukem said:


> TDI? My BIL just got a '03 Jetta TDI and he's getting about 48 mpg. I'm jealous.


 
Yep, '06 low mileage single owner on its way from Texas.  48 mpg would make me very happy and the truck will last a long time if it is only used when its really needed.


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## JP11 (Apr 7, 2012)

I've been making and driving on my own biofuel for 4 years.  It's about a buck a gallon all in price.  I also have been heating my home on about 65% biodiesel. 

I'm adding the wood boiler, so I'll be 100% on my own with my 70 acres of wood.  Nice to know that things I own can keep me warm perpetually.  I run the biodiesel in the car about 8 months a year.  It doesn't do well in the winter.

JP


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## DBoon (Apr 7, 2012)

Hi JP11, how do you run your boiler on B65 biodiesel?  I've read that more than 5% biodiesel in the mix is problematic for most burners.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 7, 2012)

lukem said:


> TDI? My BIL just got a '03 Jetta TDI and he's getting about 48 mpg. I'm jealous.


THe older (90s) ones did even better 55 Hwy 40s city. It seems new emission regs are the culprit.


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## btuser (Apr 7, 2012)

DBoon said:


> Hi JP11, how do you run your boiler on B65 biodiesel? I've read that more than 5% biodiesel in the mix is problematic for most burners.


I've heard rumors about Riello burners running on 100% biodiesel.  Depending on the year/build and a little pre-heating nothing is impossible.


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## JP11 (Apr 7, 2012)

btuser said:


> I've heard rumors about Riello burners running on 100% biodiesel. Depending on the year/build and a little pre-heating nothing is impossible.


 
I opted to put a beckett AFG burner in my Buderus.  I did run B100 for a while.  It just doesn't have enough BTUs.  I put in a nozzle line heater.  I also changed out the suntec clean cut pump for a webster B100 compatible pump.  I've been running it 4 years without a problem.

I pumped the pressure to 140, painted the inside of the burner tube chrome (flame is just a bit dull for photo eye)  I can make it a steady 350 to 400 hours between cleanings.  Sometimes I crack it and it's real clean... others it's a years worth of dirty in 5 or 6 weeks.  That's the varying nature of the viscosity of the fuel.

I also added a clean cut solenoid.  As I lost the one when I changed pumps.  It helps the nozzle "pop" on and off clean.

I added a secondary spin on filter, and routed a return to tank.  That helps keep it extra filtered and stirred up.

I end up doing about 4 cleanings, and two nozzle changes a year.  Completely worth it for a 2.50 a gallon savings in fuel.  Especially since I'm burning 1500 gallons a year.

JP


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## gtjp (Apr 9, 2012)

Hey JP11 from JP, Ohio:

Howz that compare to the usual 11,000 to 12,000 KWH per year I have implemented with a similar 1500 gal user of usual oil burning, for HW and Heat ( but that includes cooling that makes HW free-er, on demand like an oil HW tank)
60,000 net BtuH in Cooling High Speed - (Size: 5.1/2ton GT Ht Pump, 3800 sq ft over 1990's insulated 1400 sq ft basement and all HW for fam of 5...)

a 5500 sq ft over 2000 basement uses 13,800-14,500 kwh, living 71 deg.

What would the transportation and fuel costs compare to that in your Area-Dollars for electricity, on say all electric ratings and fees...?

geopros.org

GTJP


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## JP11 (Apr 10, 2012)

Sorry.. You lost me there for a bit!  

This year my price is set to go up.... My source of bulk methanol is gone.  I should have no problem staying well under 1.75 a gallon or so costs all in.

Electricity?  It's not an option at all in Maine.  I know of only a few houses that have it (most are a failed 70s experiment) and most of them add on something like pellets because of the expense.

I collect the grease on my way to and from work.  I make the fuel while I'm working around the house.  Just to make round numbers...

1000 gallons of fuel.  118k btu per gallon on my biofuel.  So call it net 100k btu per gallon.  118Million BTUs for 1750 dollars.  Compare that to 135million BTUs if it was #2 fuel for a cost of 3500 dollars today's cost.

Not sure how that would stack up to your electric prices.

JP


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## woodgeek (Apr 10, 2012)

1 gallon of #2 = 110 kBTU (output) = 32 kWh of elec. 

At $0.15/kwh, it is matched to $4.86/gal

or $4/gal oil (about right for most folks factoring in service) breaks even with $0.12/kWh in resistance strip.


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## btuser (Apr 10, 2012)

woodgeek said:


> 1 gallon of #2 = 110 kBTU (output) = 32 kWh of elec.
> 
> At $0.15/kwh, it is matched to $4.86/gal
> 
> or $4/gal oil (about right for most folks factoring in service) breaks even with $0.12/kWh in resistance strip.


 
How about an electric boiler?  I know you couldn't zone it the same but is there about the same loss/value for electric heat if you use water to move the heat?


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## btuser (Apr 10, 2012)

JP11 said:


> Sorry.. You lost me there for a bit!
> 
> This year my price is set to go up.... My source of bulk methanol is gone. I should have no problem staying well under 1.75 a gallon or so costs all in.
> 
> ...


 

I tried to get grease for a while but most places don't want to bother with it. Somebody sometime stopped showing up to pump out the drums when it got too cold, or wasn't reliable or tried to get the restaurant to strain/condition the grease first for them so they just stopped.

I heard it's more cost efficient to do SVO, but you have to preheat and have dual tanks in a vehicle.


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## JP11 (Apr 10, 2012)

I have a friend with an SVO kit.  He spent several thousand dollars, and 3/4 of his trunk is taken up by a tank and he's always worried about making a mess.

He struggles with bad grease and filtering it.

I spent half as much.. keep the mess out of my car.  I am very fortunate that I have a GREAT grease source that does pre-filter for me.  I eat there frequently and I give him a little cash now and then to keep him happy.  More often than not, I barter with my wife's photography services for the restaurant owner's family.  They are my neighbors. 

I need to shop methanol for this season.  I'm sure my costs are going up over last year's BUCK a gallon all in price.


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## gtjp (Apr 12, 2012)

THANKS JP11 and all again!
QUOTING:
1 gallon of #2 = 110 MBTU (output) = 32 kWh of elec.
At $0.15/kwh, it is matched to $4.86/gal

~~~ (I do have 3 used (R-22 Systems, shipped w/nitrogen only) <all for open or closed loop, last 2 have flow controllers OEM>: 
(1) HW-on-demand and F/Air-Heat only, 1993-2007, gets new 38k compressor (rated's 4.0 size comparably)  when ordered; (2) a F-Air and HW 100% instant, 2000-2010 44k dual compressors (rated's 4.1/2 ton) , fine condition; (3) a F-Air, sm HW Gen DeSuperheater, 54k (like r-22, 5-ton rated's)
3 yr warranty and loop and application designs inclusive, per order (quote per application).

TO COMPARE PREVIOUS
With 1000 gallon loads/ heating and HW only:
Installations in retrofitting farm homes to new custom homes ---
found a typical 46,ooo - 50,ooo BtuH (older R-22) Compressor found  in 4.1/2ton "rated" GeoThermal Heat Pumps, does nicely eliminate all supplemental heating for 95% of the winters (averaging).
This only used ~ metered: 8400-9500 KWH comparing to ~ 32000 at all-electric.
This is why in maintenance dollars, for the 90% GT out there, are claims of 80% $aved over #2 oil   ' on-the-dollars '   over the 3-4 year returns on investment- heating only with HW 100% heating; and sooner ROI's if deducting a new Ht P hi-Eff for A/C and warm air, respectively.

An open loop well 52-deg water Pump-Dump in a ditch out performs that by another 6%-12%---- if not lifting water much over 80-ft <we limit dynamic lift at ~ 125 ft with today's well pumps>; and but more so--  not another aquifer is used on/in a second well unless very sandy or clean-gravel aquifer, no iron, no solids to plug 2nd well...
(possibly contaminating, as unlikely same aquifer receives same clean discharged well water, etc)
Towers in Dayton OH have had 2 wells as close as 90ft, on 250 ton "chillers" since the 70's.

:::
If the newer r410a , being heating averaging 8% or so less efficient than R-22, field-apples to field-apples...
is compared~ ie) rated "5-ton", today's sales,
then it appears a cold-two-months on a ground loop well-designed at 34-deg+f, supplying GT System, pumped over 3GPM per rated "Ton" through loop (ECL, gle),  you may only save ~ 70% over # 2 oil,  GT HW production over ~ 104 deg, anything, barely save 4% (on $)over a Canadian IBC 98% eff HW Boiler  www.ibcboiler.com  (gallery:  www.GEOPros.org )
Saving ~ 60% to all electric F/Air- HW , 50% to Electric-Radiant or compared to 4- zoning systems (spot heating) and Electric mats in floors without fluids...  (very considerable use of those mats, sometimes)
~ only 40% over Propane dollars... etc.

Although nGAS ~$4 or less and elec near 6 cents, total bills with ~ 15,000 mcf or ~ 1500 kwh (GT) still average over $11. /mcf and over $.12 electric in Ohio , currently, at that lower right bottom of the bill number.

So in COP 100% Electric= 1
GT at COP 3.5- 3.6, coldest months , closed loops in ground, but good ones...
GT may not be a great short term investment over ~ $ 1750/ 1000 gallons << comparing .12 x1000 KWH and some back up heat in -7 deg below zero winters, 
?
BUT WHAT's the average home owner paying for all pro maintenance, compared to just changing filters them self, if GT is "maintenance-inspection-free-er" ?

geoJon
gtjp , Ohio

Dad had 2 wood burners in Cincinnati in city, one flu had HW recovery tubing to water heater~ 8 wraps of 3/4 OD  <k-cu pipe>... around vent before double-wall, then. 37x42 contractors house 2 story, had nGas high $400 Jan nGas bills in 2002 ! Bor. uses a couple Kero heaters and one wood burner, 'til sold this year !


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 14, 2012)

Reducing consumption of meat would have a huge impact on the environment. Might save the rain forest and UNclog yur arteries.


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## katwillny (Apr 22, 2012)

Jags said:


> Heck yeah it counts.  "Keep it local" is catching on.



Ive been more conscious of spending money local and investing in local economy. Sure i can go to the walmart and save some money, but Id rather pay a few more cents on our Main Street supermarket and give the guys the business. Locally owned market, or go to the corner store and pay a few cents more for the gallon of milk and eggs. It keeps my fellow Beaconites employed and gives my city tax revenue which hopefully keep that police officer employed and that music teacher teaching my kids the importance of music and arts. It all counts.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 23, 2012)

Buy local ,who knows what chemicals are in foreign food as its just not tested on a regular basis. WHen they do test thay find some nasty stuff in some foreign foods like "farm raised" seafoods. And also produce.


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## begreen (Apr 23, 2012)

Buying local also dramatically reduces the carbon emissions needed to transport the food (or beverage) to you. I just tried a new stout made just 5 miles from my house and it was quite nice.


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 27, 2012)

begreen said:


> Buying local also dramatically reduces the carbon emissions needed to transport the food (or beverage) to you. I just tried a new stout made just 5 miles from my house and it was quite nice.


Just read that the average "meal" consumed in the US travels 1500 miles from, its origin,thats just crazy,makes you think fuel cost to little it this is economically feasable.


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## lukem (Apr 27, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Just read that the average "meal" consumed in the US travels 1500 miles from, its origin,thats just crazy,makes you think fuel cost to little it this is economically feasable.


 
That's an amazing number, not to mention all the energy required to maintain temperature during transit and storage.  Even been to a grocery DC?  They have massive coolers and deep freezes that spin the meter like you wouldn't believe.

I have several meals a week with less than 10 miles on them during the growing season, and into the winter until the freezer runs dry.

I grow my own veggies, taters, and chickens within 1/4 mile.  Buy whole hogs from 5 miles away, and hunt deer 10 miles away.  That saves a lot of diesel and refrigeration energy.


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## Normande (Apr 27, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Reducing consumption of meat would have a huge impact on the environment. Might save the rain forest and UNclog yur arteries.


More like change were you sorce your meat and production systems are highly subjective to management, but I see you have been reading "folks this ain't normal", excellent example of more sustainable system.


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## btuser (Apr 28, 2012)

JP11 said:


> I have a friend with an SVO kit. He spent several thousand dollars, and 3/4 of his trunk is taken up by a tank and he's always worried about making a mess.
> 
> He struggles with bad grease and filtering it.
> 
> ...


 
That's a great situation.  Do you run 100%, premix or top off while at home? 

I'd totally be willing to invest in the infrastructure if I could guarantee my supply.  In this way I'm no different than your average multimillionaire.


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## JP11 (Apr 28, 2012)

My home oil burner runs about 66% bio.  The cars run 100% bio from april to december.

You can add petro diesel at any time.. but I don't go that far from home. I have been known to put a couple jugs of homebrew in the trunk to avoid the pump on a long trip.  

Oil burner in my home CAN run 100% bio.. but needs cleaning, or at least checking too often.  Output of the boiler is too closely matched to home requirements.. so the less "punch" from b100 was just too much of a handicap.  With the blend.. I keep the heat up, and clean it about every 400 hours or so of burner time.  Equals 3 cleanings a winter.  Or at least it DID.... before I installed wood boiler last month.

JP


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 28, 2012)

We have been getting a lot of wild game lately,seems many of those fisherman and hunters do not eat their catch. WIfe cooked up a big batch of deer meat the other day and our 15 Yr old daughter raved about how good it was until we told her it was deer meat, then fell silent. Just had some mountain ram stew yesterday. Excellent. Eating wild game is VERY green IMO.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Apr 28, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> We have been getting a lot of wild game lately,seems many of those fisherman and hunters do not eat their catch. WIfe cooked up a big batch of deer meat the other day and our 15 Yr old daughter raved about how good it was until we told her it was deer meat, then fell silent. Just had some mountain ram stew yesterday. Excellent. Eating wild game is VERY green IMO.


 

Be thankful for what was given to you, sometimes those folks just happen to luck out and harvest what is a surplus for them, other times they can't "catch" (term my wife uses to mean something else) a thing.

We won't discuss other things that transpire.


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## osagebow (May 3, 2012)

I'm lucky to have parents that  lived thru the depression and taught me frugality,flexibility and fixabiliy. (Youngest of 8 -dad was Italian... Do most of what's been mentioned, but the bears don't let me compost. One was face-to face with the wife in the window as she was cooking. (fed him her cooking, and he hasn't been back- hehe... )   she's actually a good cook, and had me eating a lot greener.                                                                                                                                                                                                   I know some may not agree, but in most parts of the country, deer are an abundant,heart healthy,low cfp protein source, and can devestate the environment. We camp in Shenandoah Nat. Park, and it's ecosystem is falling apart from the deer.  ( I teach bio and ecology, and have plenty of tie dies and dead shows under my belt btw .  =D )  Usually get a deer for me and one for our single mom neighbor if I can. Her girl is the only one that can handle sitting  my 2 craaazy boys...no mas


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## velvetfoot (May 4, 2012)

Too bad diesel (and, of course, fuel oil) is so expensive here.  I used to get 50 mpg in my Beetle TDI, but my MINI's 40+ mpg or so, isn't that bad in comparison when cost taken into account.


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## ihookem (May 19, 2012)

I went to a car that avr. 40 mpg instead of my deisel truck. In 2 months I saved 100 gal. of deisel. I also, compost in our garden. I burn my garbage. This is a debate but ash is little. I also have 5 chickens that live off the yard and scrap like egg shells, old bread, cereal and fruit. I kind of quit cfl's. They burn out fast for me. I saw 100 watt incadecent bulbs that use 72 watts. At least it's the right direction. Oh well. I do very little driving after being home.


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## btuser (May 20, 2012)

ihookem said:


> I went to a car that avr. 40 mpg instead of my deisel truck. In 2 months I saved 100 gal. of deisel. I also, compost in our garden. I burn my garbage. This is a debate but ash is little. I also have 5 chickens that live off the yard and scrap like egg shells, old bread, cereal and fruit. I kind of quit cfl's. They burn out fast for me. I saw 100 watt incadecent bulbs that use 72 watts. At least it's the right direction. Oh well. I do very little driving after being home.


 
If the CFLs are burning out too quick try a different brand.  I know some are not good in upside/down fixtures and will burn out quick.  Another common killer is dimmer switches.


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## ihookem (May 20, 2012)

Never thought of them upside down. I know not ot buy the real cheap ones. I might spend a bit extra and get GE or sylvians. They're all made in China though. If they can make a regular bulb burn half what it used to I'd just use those.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 20, 2012)

CFLs are old tech already,LEDS are taking hold,they are everywhere,from cars and truck lights to street lights,been replacing CFLS one at a time at home wth LEDs.


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## begreen (May 20, 2012)

Actually, I've had great luck with 4-6 bulb packs of cheaper CFL floods from Home Depot and the like. We have 8 in the kitchen and I date the bulbs. They last a little longer than the halogens I used to use. We get about 2.5 yrs on average, but they are on a lot and use less than half the power of the 45w halogens, which used about half the original incandescent savers that were in there. (GE Miser 90w). The halogens weren't cheap either.

We only used cfls for bulbs that are on for extended periods of time. The bulb in our living room floor lamp is going on 4 yrs now. It's on every night. In the winter it can be on for about 10 hrs./day.


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## Slow1 (May 21, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> CFLs are old tech already,LEDS are taking hold,they are everywhere,from cars and truck lights to street lights,been replacing CFLS one at a time at home wth LEDs.


 
I agree here - I've been watching for the LED bulbs when they come up on sale at Lowes for under $10.  Still a lot to pay for a bulb, but I am working them into the highest use locations and so far they seem to be much nicer than the CFLs as they are instant-on to color/brightness and have been accepted by the family.  Interestingly they are directional by nature thus putting some in the kitchen cans has worked very well even though they are not actually intended to be used as floods.  I don't expect to buy any more CFLs.


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## Seasoned Oak (May 21, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> I agree here - I've been watching for the LED bulbs when they come up on sale at Lowes for under $10. Still a lot to pay for a bulb, but I am working them into the highest use locations and so far they seem to be much nicer than the CFLs as they are instant-on to color/brightness and have been accepted by the family. Interestingly they are directional by nature thus putting some in the kitchen cans has worked very well even though they are not actually intended to be used as floods. I don't expect to buy any more CFLs.


Sams club usually has the best prices on LEDS and CFLs.


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## begreen (May 21, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> I agree here - I've been watching for the LED bulbs when they come up on sale at Lowes for under $10. Still a lot to pay for a bulb, but I am working them into the highest use locations and so far they seem to be much nicer than the CFLs as they are instant-on to color/brightness and have been accepted by the family. Interestingly they are directional by nature thus putting some in the kitchen cans has worked very well even though they are not actually intended to be used as floods. I don't expect to buy any more CFLs.


 
Can you provide a link to the bulb for under $10 that you are using in the kitchen cans?


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## Seasoned Oak (May 21, 2012)

I think i paid $15 for a 2 pack at sams. That would be $7.50 a bulb. Goin there soon,every time i go there (2 to 3 x a year)they are cheaper.


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## begreen (May 21, 2012)

The 2 paks for conventional style LED bulbs are going for $20 out here at Sams Club, but they are wimpy 2.5w bulbs. The brightest PAR38 floodlight they sell is only 4w, but that is equivalent of a 30w incandescent. I want 100W equivalent. The best I find it at Lowes which is 65W, but they want $28 for them and the lamp draws 16W. That's pretty close to the 19W CFLs I currently have installed at about $2.50 apiece. But the CFLs are brighter. 3 watts saved for over 10x the cost for less light? I still don't see the value here. Where's the beef?

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/shop/product.jsp?productId=197696


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## Crane Stoves (May 21, 2012)

I use recycled "everything" whenever im able for 2 purposes #1 im broke and it saves money #2 it helps the environment

I just started learning about composting and have added that to my repertoire...im going to make my own soil instead of buying the plastic bag fulls from home depot.


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## jharkin (May 22, 2012)

To answer the original question, what we do....


We live in an old house
I think that living in a house that was built by hand before the modern age and updating it represents far less overall consumption of energy/resources than tearing it down and building new does, no matter how much "green tech" you use

We have update said old house for better efficiency
Blown in cellulose insulation, extensive air sealing, storm windows
I've measured a reduction in energy use for heating from over 12 BTU/HDD/FT2 down to ~9 BTU/HDD/FT2 due to this work and there is still more to do
Same as with the old house, I think keeping our 100+ year old wood windows (that can easily last 100 more) well maintained and covered in storm windows is a much lower long term energy use that ripping them out for replacements made of crude oil that will fail in 20 years.

Wood accounts for 30-40% of our heating needs.
I try and get as much of the wood as I can locally from trees that were downed anyway and process by hand.

We have installed CFLs throughout the house and now some LEDs in high use fixtures.
Energy star dishwasher and Fridge
We try and turn off lights as much as possible and have the AV stack, computers, etc on switchable power strips
We recycle everything the town will accept.
-Most weeks we put out two full bins of recycling or more. If not for twin toddlers we would average less than a can of trash a week. (we just couldn't deal with cloth diapers... i know I know)

We do not irrigate the lawn.
We do not use chemicals on the lawn.
My wife has an herb garden and is trying to expand it to vegetables.
We are buying more (not all) local, organic and in season food.
We try and support local farm stands and small town groceries. We have thought about joining a CSA at some point.

To commute to work I drive a 10year old car that gets 30+ mpg.
Our second car is a bit of a guzzler, a Honda pilot. However:
We bought it used.
Usually there are 4 of us riding which actually equates to a better passenger miles per gallon than my commuter car.

I do all my own maintenance on both cars and recycle everything (not sure if that makes a difference)
We always look for opportunities to buy things we need secondhand, I try to fix rather than throw away and replace when things break.
I think I am doing better than average, but am under no illusions that the above is more than a drop in the ocean towards solving the problems society faces. If I use one of those carbon footprint calculators I think it said I'm using a 3 earth share of natural resources.... much better than the 5 or 6 earth USA average but still a major problem given we only have ONE earth available. 


Oh and Ive been doing most of this since long before "Green" was trendy. I totally support being green I just get annoyed by people who are only into it because its popular and or think buying ("green") _stuff_ is the solution.


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## Slow1 (May 22, 2012)

begreen said:


> Can you provide a link to the bulb for under $10 that you are using in the kitchen cans?


 
Hard to get link in but this looks like the bulb, although the picture isn't quite the same...  Online it is now showing a price about $20/ea, but the ones I picked up were on sale at like 9.95/ea last year.  I keep watching for the sales again as they have been working great for me.

*Utilitech 60-Watt Equivalent Indoor Warm White LED Light Bulb*

Item #: 338931 |  Model #: LA19/OM800/LED


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## Corey (May 23, 2012)

Well, lets see...

heat with about 95% renewable biofuel
run car, mow yard, hopefully soon cut wood with 85% renewable biofuel
wife's car is a Honda Insight @ ~56mpg lifetime mpg
take every step possible to reduce use of oil obtained from foreign dictators / terrorists and/or injecting toxic chemicals into the ground water / aka 'fracking'
catch / recycle as much rainwater as possible
retrofit high efficiency AC and installed extra TXV for even better efficiency
maintain / upkeep on old growth shade trees around house to minimize solar gain in the summer / maximize in winter
install LED / fluorescent lights where possible
set up 'smart home' system to control lights as needed
Reduce/Reuse/Recycling, etc


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## jimbom (May 23, 2012)

Corey said:


> ...
> catch / recycle as much rainwater as possible...


I have to re-roof and am going with metal.  Here in the Ozarks we get about 50 inches of precip/year.  My question:  what is the oak, hickory, and cedar forest pollen impact on captured rainwater storage?  Do you try to use captured rainwater for anything other than non-potable?  If so, have you turned up any pathogens in your storage?  Thanks, Jim


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## Jags (May 23, 2012)

jimbom said:


> Do you try to use captured rainwater for anything other than non-potable? If so, have you turned up any pathogens in your storage? Thanks, Jim


 
Jim  - I think rain catch is recommended for non-potable only, just for some of the reasons you state.  Watering trees and plants with it is not introducing anything new to them.  Watering humans - another story.  MMMmmm...tree pollen...yummy.


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## Adios Pantalones (May 23, 2012)

I use my catch water for watering garden, adding to the compost pile, changing water in my fish tank, various pottery uses (making glazes, throwing water, rinsing hands), and a bunch of other stuff I'm sure. I know a guy that is off the grid- he drinks his and has never had an issue. The first portion likely contains all the pollen- need to do fractionation.


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## begreen (May 23, 2012)

Slow1 said:


> Hard to get link in but this looks like the bulb, although the picture isn't quite the same... Online it is now showing a price about $20/ea, but the ones I picked up were on sale at like 9.95/ea last year. I keep watching for the sales again as they have been working great for me.
> 
> *Utilitech 60-Watt Equivalent Indoor Warm White LED Light Bulb*
> 
> Item #: 338931 | Model #: LA19/OM800/LED


 
Thanks. I'll watch for it on sale:
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=338931-75774-LA19/OM800/LED


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## Corey (May 23, 2012)

jimbom said:


> I have to re-roof and am going with metal. Here in the Ozarks we get about 50 inches of precip/year. My question: what is the oak, hickory, and cedar forest pollen impact on captured rainwater storage? Do you try to use captured rainwater for anything other than non-potable? If so, have you turned up any pathogens in your storage? Thanks, Jim


 
We do non-potable only...generally watering plants, herbs, garden, etc around the house.  Basically, it's pond-quality water...has pollen, dust, the occasional bug, asphalt roof granules, what ever pollution it picked up falling through the sky, etc.  Nothing you'd ever consider drinking without some purification. 

Though if a person took the time to catch it in a sanitary manner and do some mild purification (UV, ozone?)  I suspect it could be as good or better than water coming out of the ground or from a lake/river - where it can pick up anything from asbestos, arsenic, pesticides/herbicides, other pathogens to toxic chemicals from fracking, and who knows what else!


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## Adios Pantalones (May 23, 2012)

Corey said:


> We do non-potable only...generally watering plants, herbs, garden, etc around the house. Basically, it's pond-quality water...has pollen, dust, the occasional bug, asphalt roof granules, what ever pollution it picked up falling through the sky, etc. Nothing you'd ever consider drinking without some purification.
> 
> Though if a person took the time to catch it in a sanitary manner and do some mild purification (UV, ozone?) I suspect it could be as good or better than water coming out of the ground or from a lake/river - where it can pick up anything from asbestos, arsenic, pesticides/herbicides, other pathogens to toxic chemicals from fracking, and who knows what else!


I think the metal roof helps here as it washes off quick compared to a rough surface, but you're right- there's probably an easy treatment


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## Wood Duck (May 24, 2012)

jimbom said:


> I have to re-roof and am going with metal. Here in the Ozarks we get about 50 inches of precip/year. My question: what is the oak, hickory, and cedar forest pollen impact on captured rainwater storage? Do you try to use captured rainwater for anything other than non-potable? If so, have you turned up any pathogens in your storage? Thanks, Jim


 
If you want to use rainwater for potable supply I'd look for a device that diverts the first flush of runoff from each storm away from storage (I think you can find some online) and you will need disinfection. Rainwater has dust, pollen, nutrients, etc. that will allow bacteria to grow in the water while the water is stored. The primary negative impact of pollen is that it provides potential food for bacteria, potentially including pathogens. Pollen probably also adds taste to the water. Keep the storage container as clean as possible and disinfect continuously. I'd use ozone disinfection which leaves no residual besides oxygen. I think small ozone generators are not very expensive. I can't recommend a manufacturer.


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## Sisu (Jun 7, 2012)

Rain water from the roof should be treated like any surface water via chemically assisted filtration.


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