# K.I.S.S......



## Seanbear (Oct 29, 2022)

Keep It Simple Stupid...........Thats how I look at wood burning. They have been doing it forever, with way less than we have access to. I couldnt even run a modern stove, with the air controls, smoke free glass, huge fire box, and the worst, the Cat......they are expensive for a car , so I figured they are for stoves too, probably more. They look NICE, the enamled ones, but just out of my leauge, and I would probably mess it up.  K.I.S.S is my theroy, just my 2 cents.


----------



## bholler (Oct 29, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> Keep It Simple Stupid...........Thats how I look at wood burning. They have been doing it forever, with way less than we have access to. I couldnt even run a modern stove, with the air controls, smoke free glass, huge fire box, and the worst, the Cat......they are expensive for a car , so I figured they are for stoves too, probably more. They look NICE, the enamled ones, but just out of my leauge, and I would probably mess it up.  K.I.S.S is my theroy, just my 2 cents.


You do realize running many modern stoves is no more complicated than running old ones correctly right?  You have an air control you get the stove up to temp then shut it back.  It really is that simple.  The glass door just makes it easier because you can see the fire


----------



## bholler (Oct 29, 2022)

Also I am not sure what you mean by they are expensive for a car.  Comparing new to new the most expensive regular woodburning stoves top out at $5000 but you can get decent ones around $1000 to $1500.  Try to find a new car for that.  Comparing used to used you can get a really nice used stove for $1500 or less.  A used car that costs $1500 is not going to be nice at all without allot of work


----------



## clux (Oct 29, 2022)

bholler said:


> Also I am not sure what you mean by they are expensive for a car.  Comparing new to new the most expensive regular woodburning stoves top out at $5000 but you can get decent ones around $1000 to $1500.  Try to find a new car for that.  Comparing used to used you can get a really nice used stove for $1500 or less.  A used car that costs $1500 is not going to be nice at all without allot of work


I think he's talking about the cost of catalysts for cars and stoves, which are expensive because of the price of palladium/platinum.


----------



## stoveliker (Oct 29, 2022)

He's talking about cats being expensive on a car, and thus for stoves too.


My view is that yes, they cost. It's not crazy though (for under $300 I'll be good for 5-6 years, I estimate.

But it's not a gimmick. It's a tool that expands the BTU output range to lower ranges than otherwise possible. Tools for extra functionality are sometimes worth it.

For me a cat.or tubes are worth it, because I get more heat out of a pound of wood. And because I put less crap in the great outdoors, so me and you can enjoy that longer.

For me the cat is worth it.
If.you only run your stove at the high end of the output range, then a tube stove would be better. (And you should have bought a larger stove.)


Finally, all this technology has resulted in our live spans being longer these days. So the extra (apparently complicated, for some folks) tools on my stove, and all the other complicated technology out there, are worth it for me.

I like my doctor being able to scan for a tumor rather than having to do an autopsy.

That is my "keep it simple" thinking.


----------



## bholler (Oct 29, 2022)

Ok thanks guys I didn't get that.   Stove cats can be pretty expensive but if you don't want to pay for cats get a noncat


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Oct 29, 2022)

The OPs post is open to all sorts of interpretation.

Wood burning is what you make of it IMO.   If you have dry wood and a correct chimney, it’s pretty simple regardless of the stove you run.  

Start straying from those 2 things and it gets more complicated… quickly.


----------



## ABMax24 (Oct 30, 2022)

I guess I'm of the opposite mindset of the OP. I like technology and the advancements that come with it. I like fuel injection over carburetors, common rail direct injection over mechanical injection, I like my computer, internet and smart phone. If someone built a stove with electronic controls and a wack of sensors with a cool digital display with live telemetry I'd probably like that too.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Oct 30, 2022)

Like a pellet stove?


----------



## bholler (Oct 30, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> I guess I'm of the opposite mindset of the OP. I like technology and the advancements that come with it. I like fuel injection over carburetors, common rail direct injection over mechanical injection, I like my computer, internet and smart phone. If someone built a stove with electronic controls and a wack of sensors with a cool digital display with live telemetry I'd probably like that too.


I am somewhere in the middle.  I don't want electronics on my woodstove.  But the simple clean burn options are fantastic.


----------



## clux (Oct 30, 2022)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Like a pellet stove?


They come with high tech fuel too, uniform size, uniform density, kiln dried, clean packaging, what's not to love?


----------



## Seanbear (Oct 30, 2022)

My Brother Inlaw has a pellet stove. He likes it, but hes already having trouble  finding pellets. Then he needs a truck and trailer to get it all home. I think he bought a pallet the other day. It may last him all winter, who knows? But pellets arent free, and wood is sometimes if youre lucky!


----------



## stoveliker (Oct 30, 2022)

clux said:


> They come with high tech fuel too, uniform size, uniform density, kiln dried, clean packaging, what's not to love?


My fuel is "nature's own"; no packaging material to dispose of, a nice variety for different types of weather, dried without using any (fossil) fuel, and my stove still heats my home well when the power is out.

And while I subscribe to ABMax's philosophy, I would not buy a wood stove with electric controls. The stove is meant to also heat my home when the power is out, without having to hook up a generator. And I see too many posts here about this light is blinking, but that part doesn't do what it needs to do. It would frustrate the h*ll out of me. I prefer a modern stove with the control based purely on mechanical physics (e.g. quantity of secondary air depending on the strength of the draft, or thermostat based on simple thermal expansion coefficients). In that respect, I do like "keeping it simple".


----------



## clux (Oct 30, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> My fuel is "nature's own"; no packaging material to dispose of, a nice variety for different types of weather, dried without using any (fossil) fuel, and my stove still heats my home well when the power is out.
> 
> And while I subscribe to ABMax's philosophy, I would not buy a wood stove with electric controls. The stove is meant to also heat my home when the power is out, without having to hook up a generator. And I see too many posts here about this light is blinking, but that part doesn't do what it needs to do. It would frustrate the h*ll out of me. I prefer a modern stove with the control based purely on mechanical physics (e.g. quantity of secondary air depending on the strength of the draft, or thermostat based on simple thermal expansion coefficients). In that respect, I do like "keeping it simple".


I have a wood stove in one end of the house, pellet stove in the other.  They both have their merits.


----------



## stoveliker (Oct 30, 2022)

Absolutely


----------



## kennyp2339 (Oct 30, 2022)

I generally approach life with the kiss method, the simplest kiss approach with wood is just making sure your ahead with a dry supply, the wheels seem to come off the rails is one shape or another when the fuel isnt as good as it should be with stoves.


----------



## Eman85 (Oct 30, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> Keep It Simple Stupid...........Thats how I look at wood burning. They have been doing it forever, with way less than we have access to. I couldnt even run a modern stove, with the air controls, smoke free glass, huge fire box, and the worst, the Cat......they are expensive for a car , so I figured they are for stoves too, probably more. They look NICE, the enamled ones, but just out of my leauge, and I would probably mess it up.  K.I.S.S is my theroy, just my 2 cents.


 I think your philosophy is correct. A lot of the technology of woodburning is like the technology of automobiles. People that learned to drive cars with no power everything and gov't mandated safety equipment seem to be more in tune with the actual operating of the vehicle. It's much the same with wood burning. If you burned wood because that was all you had in a basic woodstove you learned from the basics how it all worked. Then if you wanted to put bells whistles and meters on your stove to monitor everything technology helped you. But if you knew how to operate without all of it you didn't worry if your meter quit as you knew how to operate without it.


----------



## bholler (Oct 30, 2022)

Eman85 said:


> I think your philosophy is correct. A lot of the technology of woodburning is like the technology of automobiles. People that learned to drive cars with no power everything and gov't mandated safety equipment seem to be more in tune with the actual operating of the vehicle. It's much the same with wood burning. If you burned wood because that was all you had in a basic woodstove you learned from the basics how it all worked. Then if you wanted to put bells whistles and meters on your stove to monitor everything technology helped you. But if you knew how to operate without all of it you didn't worry if your meter quit as you knew how to operate without it.


Again the vast majority of modern stoves are still very simple.  A simple thermometer is all that is needed to run it properly.  Other than a good chimney and good fuel.


----------



## ericm979 (Oct 30, 2022)

I went with a reburn type EPA stove on the theory that they're just as good as the cat stoves without the hassle of the cat. Only later did I find out that cat stoves can run at a lower setting for longer burns.  Between my stove's 2.5cf firebox, 35' chimney and the lowest air setting not being that low, it can't go over night without a reload.  I'd eagerly trade cat maintenance and occasional replacement for that.

(and yes reading here I could add a damper but it's dual wall insulated pipe and it's sealed up in a chase where I can't get to it without destroying something and having to rebuild it)

Working in tech and seeing how often it fails, I prefer simpler solutions but will trade a bit of complexity for a real performance gain. My ideal now if I had a different house would be a free standing cat stove instead of the EPA ZC fireplace we used for space reasons.


----------



## bholler (Oct 30, 2022)

ericm979 said:


> I went with a reburn type EPA stove on the theory that they're just as good as the cat stoves without the hassle of the cat. Only later did I find out that cat stoves can run at a lower setting for longer burns.  Between my stove's 2.5cf firebox, 35' chimney and the lowest air setting not being that low, it can't go over night without a reload.  I'd eagerly trade cat maintenance and occasional replacement for that.
> 
> (and yes reading here I could add a damper but it's dual wall insulated pipe and it's sealed up in a chase where I can't get to it without destroying something and having to rebuild it)
> 
> Working in tech and seeing how often it fails, I prefer simpler solutions but will trade a bit of complexity for a real performance gain. My ideal now if I had a different house would be a free standing cat stove instead of the EPA ZC fireplace we used for space reasons.


A cat won't change anything you will still have excessive draft leading to controllability issues.  

There are benifits to cat stoves as well as noncats.  But they all have to be installed to manufacturers specs.


----------



## Seanbear (Oct 31, 2022)

I like my little cast iron wood burner. It works for my needs. No glass window, but I got it for the free heat mostly.


----------



## fvhowler (Oct 31, 2022)

I'm all for burning as clean as reasonable. I like the technolgy in new stoves but I don't want burning wood to become so automated that it sanitizes the procress of tending to the stove. Yes, KISS but with some legitimate technological advances, not just bells and whistles. That being said, everyone has their reasons for burning wood.


----------



## fvhowler (Oct 31, 2022)

bholler said:


> Again the vast majority of modern stoves are still very simple.  A simple thermometer is all that is needed to run it properly.  Other than a good chimney and good fuel.


bholler - if a stove thermometer is essential, why don't manufacturers build them into the the stove? My H300 stove does not have a place for a magnetic thermometer to get an accurate reading. I do have  a probe thermometer in my double wall pipe.


----------



## stoveliker (Oct 31, 2022)

I think the thermometers are not engineered in the stove (other than with good cat stoves, but that is to monitor the cat, not the stove itself), because *flue* thermometers is what is needed imo. Not stove top thermometers.
And flues don't come with the stove.


----------



## bholler (Oct 31, 2022)

fvhowler said:


> bholler - if a stove thermometer is essential, why don't manufacturers build them into the the stove? My H300 stove does not have a place for a magnetic thermometer to get an accurate reading. I do have  a probe thermometer in my double wall pipe.


Because they typically work best in the pipe not on the stove unless it's a cat stove.  Which typically do have thermometers.  Now I do wish they included remote thermometers with inserts


----------



## vbu (Oct 31, 2022)

Some of the new inserts are KISS. No user input whatsoever, you can't even control the air, only supplementary air on a timer. If I knew then what I know now I would've never bought the POS. I really wanted to get a regency insert and we drove 120miles one way with a 5 day old baby to go look at one. I called them first to make sure they would come out this far to install it. Went and looked at it, said we liked it, asked them to come down and give us a quote. Never heard back from them.


----------



## ABMax24 (Oct 31, 2022)

Do you know what? I think I'm going to adopt this KISS philosophy, I'm going to remove the diesel oxidizing catalyst, diesel particulate filter, selective oxidation catalyst and exhaust gas recirculation system from my pickup. Should make it more fuel efficient, reliable and simple. Not to mention I'll get the nostalgic feel when inhaling all the diesel fumes.


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> Do you know what? I think I'm going to adopt this KISS philosophy, I'm going to remove the diesel oxidizing catalyst, diesel particulate filter, selective oxidation catalyst and exhaust gas recirculation system from my pickup. Should make it more fuel efficient, reliable and simple. Not to mention I'll get the nostalgic feel when inhaling all the diesel fumes.


And in addition to all those good thing you can sell the catalyst to some poor soul that has to live with emissions testing and got theirs stolen and put about $1000 in your pocket.
Bonus!


----------



## vbu (Nov 1, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> Do you know what? I think I'm going to adopt this KISS philosophy, I'm going to remove the diesel oxidizing catalyst, diesel particulate filter, selective oxidation catalyst and exhaust gas recirculation system from my pickup. Should make it more fuel efficient, reliable and simple. Not to mention I'll get the nostalgic feel when inhaling all the diesel fumes.


I’d keep the SCR because it actually does work and does benefit the environment. I really do not think the particulate filters do us any good. When they regenerate they burn all the soot. The result is particles so fine, that when inhaled, go right in our bloodstream. I can’t imagine that being good for you. I’ll take the heavy soot particles over that any day. That stuff just settles down, and gets washed off leaves/ etc. Soot is mainly carbon so it’s not nearly as bad for you, since it settles fairly quickly. I think. That’s my opinion on the whole emissions deal at least. 
If you really want to be green then convert your diesel to run on natural gas. You don’t produce Nox so no need for an SCR and there is no soot either.


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 1, 2022)

Sorry to hear about the service you got from the furance place. I have bad luck with contractors period....I do things myself usually, but if can afford to hire someone, I would too.


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 1, 2022)

You guys are funny! Id never buy a diesel due to the HIGH price of it. I buy heating oil like once a year. Its STEEP!!


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

vbu said:


> I’d keep the SCR because it actually does work and does benefit the environment.


Depends on your location.
If you're driving across central Iowa destroying urea that was created using fossil fuels to keep your deisel engine from emitting nitrates, while farmland in every direction for hundreds of miles is having nitrates that were created using fossil fuels applied to them, you're not really benefitting the environment, you're in net harming it.
It's like tire 2 emissions on farm tractors, you're required to spend money and ultimately fossil fuels to limit the nitrate emissions from the stack of the piece of equipment you're using to spread nitrate fertilizer on your farm.  It's silly government regulation.
Emissions systems like SCR's are solely made to improve urban environments for humans, not the environment in general.


----------



## bholler (Nov 1, 2022)

clux said:


> Depends on your location.
> If you're driving across central Iowa destroying urea that was created using fossil fuels to keep your deisel engine from emitting nitrates, while farmland in every direction for hundreds of miles is having nitrates that were created using fossil fuels applied to them, you're not really benefitting the environment, you're in net harming it.
> It's like tire 2 emissions on farm tractors, you're required to spend money and ultimately fossil fuels to limit the nitrate emissions from the stack of the piece of equipment you're using to spread nitrate fertilizer on your farm.  It's silly government regulation.
> Emissions systems like SCR's are solely made to improve urban environments for humans, not the environment in general.


Uhh pollution is pollution it gets in the air in the water in the crops etc.  I will agree some of the regulations are not instituted well.  But saying pollution doesn't matter if you are doing it in the Midwest just doesn't make sense


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> Uhh pollution is pollution it gets in the air in the water in the crops etc.  I will agree some of the regulations are not instituted well.  But saying pollution doesn't matter if you are doing it in the Midwest just doesn't make sense


We burn fossil fuels to make millions of tons of nitrates for fertilizer.  They'er not a pollutant in the right context and place.


----------



## bholler (Nov 1, 2022)

clux said:


> We burn fossil fuels to make millions of tons of nitrates for fertilizer.  They'er not a pollutant in the right context and place.


Yes and?


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> Yes and?



Using urea to prevent nitrate emission is a net negative for the environment in some contexts and places.


----------



## bholler (Nov 1, 2022)

clux said:


> Using urea to prevent nitrate emission is a net negative for the environment in some contexts and places.


That would be true if def wasn't produced almost exclusively from byproducts of fossil fuel production and or use that would otherwise have to be disposed of.


----------



## begreen (Nov 1, 2022)

I like KISS. It's why I bought our stove. PE has had the same design with minor modifications for over 2 decades. It's built tough and simple which means less maintenance and cost for me and ease of use for the family.


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> That would be true if def wasn't produced almost exclusively from byproducts of fossil fuel production and or use that would otherwise have to be disposed of.


Urea doesn't have to be disposed of, it's a fine fertilizer component.


----------



## bholler (Nov 1, 2022)

clux said:


> Urea doesn't have to be disposed of, it's a fine fertilizer component.


Ok but regardless fossil fuels are generally not burned for the sole purpose of creating def


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> Ok but regardless fossil fuels are generally not burned for the sole purpose of creating def


But they are burned for the sole purpose of creating nitrogen fertilizer, of which urea is one.


----------



## bholler (Nov 1, 2022)

clux said:


> But they are burned for the sole purpose of creating nitrogen fertilizer, of which urea is one.


Ok that is certainly possible I don't know I havnt checked.  But I don't understand why that would mean eliminating emissions equipment on diesel engines is ok.


----------



## bholler (Nov 1, 2022)

Regardless this discussion (which I am a part of)  has nothing to do with the original topic .  I will gladly discuss it further but start a thread in the green forum for that please


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> Ok that is certainly possible I don't know I havnt checked.  But I don't understand why that would mean eliminating emissions equipment on diesel engines is ok.


I said that some emissions equipment is unnecessary and a net loss for the in environment in certain contexts.  I didn't say it was ok to remove it, just implied that it may be failed technology by trying to apply a one size fits all standard.

Engine emissions focus on what's coming out the tailpipe at peak power production without regard for overall efficiency of the unit.   IMO that's wrong thinking.

 We lost about 20% fuel economy in diesel engines when tier 2 emission regulations hit.  I've not seen research but I doubt that was a net gain for the environment.


----------



## clux (Nov 1, 2022)

bholler said:


> Regardless this discussion (which I am a part of)  has nothing to do with the original topic .  I will gladly discuss it further but start a thread in the green forum for that please


👍


----------



## Eman85 (Nov 1, 2022)

As for driving most could KISS by driving less. Yes I know people have to drive to work or for work. I have a PU with no catalytic converter and put out a lot less pollution because it doesn't get driven 3k mi. per year. It gets used when I need a truck which is for towing and hauling. And no I don't live in a city or even in town.


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 1, 2022)

Now Im lost, lol....all I meant was I like a simple little cast iron stove, nothing more or less. I know mine is basically junk, but it got me thru the winter last year and Im sure it will again. I know nothing about all the stuff on that kind of motor either, im lost.


----------



## Wisdomoak159#19 (Nov 1, 2022)

vbu said:


> I’d keep the SCR because it actually does work and does benefit the environment. I really do not think the particulate filters do us any good. When they regenerate they burn all the soot. The result is particles so fine, that when inhaled, go right in our bloodstream. I can’t imagine that being good for you. I’ll take the heavy soot particles over that any day. That stuff just settles down, and gets washed off leaves/ etc. Soot is mainly carbon so it’s not nearly as bad for you, since it settles fairly quickly. I think. That’s my opinion on the whole emissions deal at least.
> If you really want to be green then convert your diesel to run on natural gas. You don’t produce Nox so no need for an SCR and there is no soot either.


Was a diesel mechanic for 10yrs. About half of our 90 bus fleet was pre emissions 24v cummins. They were old. The other half had dpf egr src all that junk. They were newer. I bet the newer half of the fleet cause 80% of the problems. And I'd be willing to bet fossil fuels were used to make the parts we had to replace. Not to mention the shipping to get us those parts. Also the pre emission busses got about 20% better fuel mileage. Regen cycles inject fuel into the cyl. On the exhaust stroke with sends unburnt fuel to the dpf with super heats it to burn the crap out. Much like a catalyst on a stove. So your quite literally burning more fuel just to burn those same emmiosion back into the air. Emissions on diesels ought to be outlawed. Horrible horrible things. They have cost us billions of dollars. Everything you buy at the store is more expensive because of dpf/src/egr. Higher repair bill for fleet equals higher shipping costs. Rant over


----------



## vbu (Nov 1, 2022)

Wisdomoak159#19 said:


> Was a diesel mechanic for 10yrs. About half of our 90 bus fleet was pre emissions 24v cummins. They were old. The other half had dpf egr src all that junk. They were newer. I bet the newer half of the fleet cause 80% of the problems. And I'd be willing to bet fossil fuels were used to make the parts we had to replace. Not to mention the shipping to get us those parts. Also the pre emission busses got about 20% better fuel mileage. Regen cycles inject fuel into the cyl. On the exhaust stroke with sends unburnt fuel to the dpf with super heats it to burn the crap out. Much like a catalyst on a stove. So your quite literally burning more fuel just to burn those same emmiosion back into the air. Emissions on diesels ought to be outlawed. Horrible horrible things. They have cost us billions of dollars. Everything you buy at the store is more expensive because of dpf/src/egr. Higher repair bill for fleet equals higher shipping costs. Rant over


Yes I'm aware of how they work. I was an engineer on board ocean going ships, and the very smallest engines we dealt with were CAT C32's, as harbor generator. Not any kind of emissions stuff on those engines. I happen to have a truck with the same engine you're talking about, a 24v cummins. Hasn't let me down yet


----------



## Wisdomoak159#19 (Nov 1, 2022)

24v are solid. Almost as good as 12v. Wasn't questioning your knowledge. Just had to rant about emissions stuff. It makes my blood pressure rise


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 2, 2022)

I really dont drive at all. My wife does, but very little. Id like to think we are saving emissions by less driving.


----------



## bholler (Nov 2, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> Now Im lost, lol....all I meant was I like a simple little cast iron stove, nothing more or less. I know mine is basically junk, but it got me thru the winter last year and Im sure it will again. I know nothing about all the stuff on that kind of motor either, im lost.


I can understand and respect that opinion.  The problem I see is that most people who share your opinion really have no basis for comparison.  They have never used and usually don't understand modern stoves.  And that leads to lots of false assumptions


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 2, 2022)

Thats very true, I have never been around a modern stove, so I have no clue how to operate it. Im sure I could figure it out quick enough. One thing about modern stoves is they are mostly NICE to look at, and they work for those who own them. My house is very old, our decoration theme for the whole house is Old Country I guess youd call it. Antiques abound at my abode.


----------



## stoveliker (Nov 2, 2022)

There are classically looking stoves with modern efficiency. Of course "classically looking" is a subjective assessment.


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Nov 2, 2022)

Check out the PE Alderlea line.  They do very well with rustic or country furnishings.


----------



## bholler (Nov 2, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> Thats very true, I have never been around a modern stove, so I have no clue how to operate it. Im sure I could figure it out quick enough. One thing about modern stoves is they are mostly NICE to look at, and they work for those who own them. My house is very old, our decoration theme for the whole house is Old Country I guess youd call it. Antiques abound at my abode.


There are several modern stoves that look like old ones.  Moroso jotul and Vermont castings come to mind.   

And honestly you don't have to pay allot for a nice modern stove if you watch the used market and are patient.  I have never paid more than $1000 for any of the dozen or so stoves I have used.  I then sell them usually for the same or more than I paid after 5 years or so.   That way I get experience with lots of stoves.


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 3, 2022)

My piece of junk  does me just fine. Was 55 in here this morning, got a fire going, it was 65 in about an hour. I appreciate all the concern, but Im juus trying to survive on very little money. I cant afford $3000 to 10000 on a stove and flue. I have about 900 in mine, is it junk? Probably. But its paid for, it works, and itll keep me from Big Oil............


----------



## bholler (Nov 3, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> My piece of junk  does me just fine. Was 55 in here this morning, got a fire going, it was 65 in about an hour. I appreciate all the concern, but Im juus trying to survive on very little money. I cant afford $3000 to 10000 on a stove and flue. I have about 900 in mine, is it junk? Probably. But its paid for, it works, and itll keep me from Big Oil............


The problem I have isn't so much with the stove you have.  It's the fact that you don't have a chimney.  You have connector pipe.   How much will you be saving if you burn your house down because of that?


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 3, 2022)

I can have the stove at the top of the "good" range, and the stove pipe outside is barely warm. In my mind, if I keep it clean, ie monthly i should be ok. None of us knows what will happen, if we did  we could stop it from happening. Am I on thin ice? You bet, but in all honesty, I cant afford a new chimney. Out of curiosity, how much would a real chimney cost me? Im thinking 1500 to 2000.  2 90 elbows, and about 20 foot of pipe?


----------



## bholler (Nov 3, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> I can have the stove at the top of the "good" range, and the stove pipe outside is barely warm. In my mind, if I keep it clean, ie monthly i should be ok. None of us knows what will happen, if we did  we could stop it from happening. Am I on thin ice? You bet, but in all honesty, I cant afford a new chimney. Out of curiosity, how much would a real chimney cost me? Im thinking 1500 to 2000.  2 90 elbows, and about 20 foot of pipe?


You don't need 2 chimney 90s they aren't even made.  You would need a tee, tee support.  Wall passthrough whatever length pipe needed a couple wall supports and a cap.   Looks like $1000 to $1500 for the lower cost chimneys.   Considerably more for premium ones

Do I know that your setup will cause a fire?  No of course not.  Would I sleep in a house or let my family live in a house with a "chimney" like yours?  Absolutely not.  The risk is just to high


----------



## Ashful (Nov 3, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am somewhere in the middle.  I don't want electronics on my woodstove.  But the simple clean burn options are fantastic.


Nicely said.  I tend toward the same. I get a chuckle out of the threads of people running "firmware updates" on their pellet stoves, but they're probably laughing at the amount of wood I need to process and load.  To each their own.



bholler said:


> A cat won't change anything you will still have excessive draft leading to controllability issues.


The cat itself certainly doesn't change anything, but the possibility to shut down inlet air certainly helps one counter excessive draft much better than a stove without this ability.  Speaking only for my BK Ashfords, I had no controllability issues with 3.5x the "maximum allowable" draft on one of my chimneys.  I could easily get it right down to black box mode from any state, no issue.

That said, there were other problems which caused me to want to correct the high draft.  Chief among them were poorer installed efficiency, and fly ash-clogged combustors.  But controllability itself was not an issue.



Seanbear said:


> Now Im lost, lol....all I meant was I like a simple little cast iron stove, nothing more or less. I know mine is basically junk, but it got me thru the winter last year and Im sure it will again. I know nothing about all the stuff on that kind of motor either, im lost.


I understand this sentiment completely.  Heck, I wanted to keep most of my fireplaces open when I moved in, even talked about removing the one wood stove that was installed, to get back to an open hearth.  And when I did start considering stoves, it was in this "dumb box of iron" mentality that you share with my former self.  But a short time of operating (even a relatively poor) modern EPA stove made me realize how much I was missing, in terms of better efficiency, better controllability, longer burn time... and without any new operator complexity.

Sure, the new stoves are more complex, but that has no impact on the operator than the inner workings of my teenager's iPhone has on his daily use of it.  KISS to the operator is not the same as lack of tech.  A well-engineered modern wood stove should be easier to burn cleanly and properly than any older tech.


----------



## bholler (Nov 3, 2022)

Ashful said:


> The cat itself certainly doesn't change anything, but the possibility to shut down inlet air certainly helps one counter excessive draft much better than a stove without this ability. Speaking only for my BK Ashfords, I had no controllability issues with 3.5x the "maximum allowable" draft on one of my chimneys. I could easily get it right down to black box mode from any state, no issue.
> 
> That said, there were other problems which caused me to want to correct the high draft. Chief among them were poorer installed efficiency, and fly ash-clogged combustors. But controllability itself was not an issue.


What happens when you have a small. Glass or door gasket leak when draft is that high.   I have seen plenty stoves destroyed by that issue and a thermostatic control won't change that.  But in that case no one was talking about a blaze king so the thermostatic control doesn't enter into the discussion at all.


----------



## stoveliker (Nov 3, 2022)

I think it was not a Tstat remark, but the fact that a cat stove (or at least ashfuls cat stove) can dial down the air more than a tube stove. This is because of the EPA regulations that limit turn down to avoid polluting smoldering - but a cat stove can run lower than a tube stove.and still do so cleanly. Therefore the allowed turn down of the air is larger. Hence overdraft is more easily controlled with a cat stove with larger turndown.

I do agree with the 'if leak, then big problems still occur ".


----------



## bholler (Nov 3, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> I think it was not a Tstat remark, but the fact that a cat stove (or at least ashfuls cat stove) can dial down the air more than a tube stove. This is because of the EPA regulations that limit turn down to avoid polluting smoldering - but a cat stove can run lower than a tube stove.and still do so cleanly. Therefore the allowed turn down of the air is larger. Hence overdraft is more easily controlled with a cat stove with larger turndown.
> 
> I do agree with the 'if leak, then big problems still occur ".


Any stove is designed to turn down to a specific level at a given draft.  If you double or triple that draft there is no way you will get proper turndown.  Will it overfire?  Probably less of a chance of that with a cat stove for sure but there will still be controllability issues


----------



## Ashful (Nov 4, 2022)

bholler said:


> What happens when you have a small. Glass or door gasket leak when draft is that high.   I have seen plenty stoves destroyed by that issue and a thermostatic control won't change that.  But in that case no one was talking about a blaze king so the thermostatic control doesn't enter into the discussion at all.


Good point.  I was primed for failure, if anything else went wrong, with such strong draft.

In my case, it showed up first as too-frequently clogged combustors, which put me onto chasing and correcting the problem with a key damper.  Luckily that happened before any of the gaskets were aged enough to come into play on this, in my particular case.

On the subject, the EPA is doing homeowners a gross disservice by not allowing manufacturers to recommend key dampers for the sole purpose of optimizing draft.  It creates a dangerous situation, when perhaps the majority of 2-story colonial chimneys that are so ubiquitous in our very-populous northeast corridor, have massively too much draft for stoves designed to pass a test on a 15 foot chimney in Florida.


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 5, 2022)

Just a question, and I dont want to start a whole thread, but what is too much draft? I guess a waste of wood for one. Im new to this for the most part, so dont mind the newbie question.


----------



## bholler (Nov 5, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> Just a question, and I dont want to start a whole thread, but what is too much draft? I guess a waste of wood for one. Im new to this for the most part, so dont mind the newbie question.


To. Much draft will result in short burn times loss of efficiency and possible over firing.  That can damage the stove, the chimney, and cause excessive temps leading to safety issues


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 5, 2022)

Thanks for the info. I guess you can have too much of a good thing. As crappy as it is, my stove drafts too much sometimes. Other times its hard to get a fire going, due to temps.   It was 59 the other day, and 64 in the house. Fire just would not go. Thats the only reason I have an oil furnace. Does that make sense that it wont draft good when its warm out? I guess its  a Temp.   thing, and it was windy that day.


----------



## stoveliker (Nov 5, 2022)

Yes, draft is due to temperature difference between inside and outside. Warmer air will rise in the flue, thus sucking air into the stove. If it's too warm out, the air in the chimney won't have enough buoyancy to float up. So not enough draft.

Also a short chimney will decrease draft.

You had both, warm outside, and short chimney. (And a chimney (ahem) that allows a lot of cooling of the gases in it.)


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 5, 2022)

LOL....thats a good one! I feel safe due to cleaning the  pipe, normal day time burns, no over nighters, I dont do the top own method either. The pipe is warm , if that, the exhaust coming out is barely hot, Its all new....and the fireboard around and under the stove get pretty warm. I guess Im taking our lives in my hands, but I think ill be good to go. Wait til spring.


----------



## Ashful (Nov 6, 2022)

Some stove manufacturers (but it seems not all) list acceptable and/or optimum draft conditions, but unfortunately many more do not.  When they're listed, they seem to be generally under 0.10" water column.

@begreen and @BKVP could say much more about this than I know, but it seems test standards encourage stove manufacturers to optimize performance for very low draft (eg. 0.05" water column), which results in the masses of our woodburning public living in the typical 2-story colonial in a northern climate to operate with much higher than optimum draft.

Too-strong draft can create control problems in some stoves, exacerbate the danger of any malfunction, or just cause less than optimum efficiency.


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 6, 2022)

I dont see how packing a stove to the gills, then firing it up, then going to bed is safe? That seems dangerous to me.  I have oil heat for the late nights, but mainly wood. And I honestly dont se how the top down method is any better than old Boy Scout tee-pee. I can have a fire going and almost up to temp, faster than it would take just to pile up a top down method. To those use it, thats good, but why mess with an old method that even kids can do?


----------



## stoveliker (Nov 6, 2022)

If your stove and chimney system are good, packing the stove and proper turn down is perfectly safe - and gives the longest heat.

Top down heats secondary reburn faster for quicker decrease in emissions, and more heat for your home. Also no need to open up to add wood. Just load, start top down, turn down in half an hour and walk away.

For my stove that walk away time varies from 8-10 to up to 36 hrs, depending on how much heat I need. Start and don't bother with the fire for 10 hrs. Ideal.


----------



## Ashful (Nov 6, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> I dont see how packing a stove to the gills, then firing it up, then going to bed is safe? That seems dangerous to me.


There is some inherent danger in it, yes.  As @stoveliker said, a good stove and properly maintained, it will stay under predictable control and temperatures.

But things can (and do) go wrong.  That's where observing proper installation, proper clearances and proper chimney pipe all come into play.  If you are following all clearances and installation requirements, then even a single failure or operator error should not cause catastrophe.


----------



## Seanbear (Nov 6, 2022)

Ok, I see what you mean, Im serious.  But what is a "proper" installation? One that works, or one you pay big bucks for? And I know family safety, all of that. But when I load the herd up to go to the store, Im risking life and limb, from my driving I guess, but its the other driver you got worry about. Im a good driver, yet I could still be killed just like anyone else. I dont live my life in fear. I have zero debt, I make it month to moth, and Im happy. A Lot of people on here dont like that Im doing the same as they are, which is heating a house, but Im doing it free.


----------



## Ashful (Nov 6, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> Ok, I see what you mean, Im serious.  But what is a "proper" installation?


One that follows the manufacturer's listed application(s) and installation requirements, as well as any code requirements.  For example, the manufacturer of your stovepipe almost certainly only lists it for interior applications, never exterior.


----------



## clux (Nov 6, 2022)

I load my stove the the gills and go to bed.
I load my stove to the gills  and drive away.
Never give it a second thought, been doing it my whole life.  If I thought something about it was unsafe I would fix it.


----------



## stoveliker (Nov 6, 2022)

I think there is a perception issue here. We'd never have a natural gas line made of some plastic hose found at the home Depot. But because we think we know wood fire, because we think we can act when it starts to go wrong (versus an explosion of nat gas), we think the risks are not similarly large. And thus we do nat gas as the safety recommendations require, but a wood fire in a metal box in our home can be done without similar regard to safety recommendations.

This is not to diminish any financial issues in doing things right. I get that. But ... and I'd repeat myself with the above.


----------



## bholler (Nov 6, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> I dont see how packing a stove to the gills, then firing it up, then going to bed is safe? That seems dangerous to me.  I have oil heat for the late nights, but mainly wood. And I honestly dont se how the top down method is any better than old Boy Scout tee-pee. I can have a fire going and almost up to temp, faster than it would take just to pile up a top down method. To those use it, thats good, but why mess with an old method that even kids can do?


I have done that every night during the heating season for about 15 years now.  My father has done it every night of the heating season for 50 or so years.  Our stoves are installed properly with good chimneys so we absolutely trust the safety of our systems.  

As far as top down or not it's a matter of preference really.  I don't do top down.  The few fires I start I do with some cardboard and kindling on the bottom.  Pack the stove and hit it with a torch.  But I really only start at most a dozen fires a season.


----------



## bholler (Nov 6, 2022)

Seanbear said:


> Ok, I see what you mean, Im serious.  But what is a "proper" installation? One that works, or one you pay big bucks for? And I know family safety, all of that. But when I load the herd up to go to the store, Im risking life and limb, from my driving I guess, but its the other driver you got worry about. Im a good driver, yet I could still be killed just like anyone else. I dont live my life in fear. I have zero debt, I make it month to moth, and Im happy. A Lot of people on here dont like that Im doing the same as they are, which is heating a house, but Im doing it free.


A proper installation is one that follows manufacturers specifications and atleast minimum safety standards known as codes.

Yes when you drive you are taking a risk.  But most of us minimize that risk as much as possible by making sure our vehicle is in good working order wearing seatbelts and paying attention to other drivers.

The same goes for heating with wood.  Minimize any possible risk.  It's pretty simple.  No one here is upset by the fact that you are heating with wood.  We are concerned for your safety.  And also want to make it very clear to anyone reading this that a setup like yours is absolutely unsafe.


----------



## begreen (Nov 9, 2022)

bholler said:


> I have done that every night during the heating season for about 15 years now.  My father has done it every night of the heating season for 50 or so years.  Our stoves are installed properly with good chimneys so we absolutely trust the safety of our systems.
> 
> As far as top down or not it's a matter of preference really.  I don't do top down.  The few fires I start I do with some cardboard and kindling on the bottom.  Pack the stove and hit it with a torch.  But I really only start at most a dozen fires a season.


Likewise. No anxiety with a fully loaded stove. It's properly set up and behaves well.


----------



## Ashful (Nov 9, 2022)

x3... as in I do it 3x per day all winter.  But at the same time, let's not pretend there's never been a failure of a fully loaded stove or associated hardware.  This is where respecting clearances and other install parameters will save your home.


----------



## begreen (Nov 15, 2022)

I have seen failure and it's always me spacing out the air control.


----------



## Ashful (Nov 16, 2022)

Just did this on one stove last night!  Bypass was closed, so no harm, but I did rip thru a good bit of the “overnight” load a lot earlier than intended.  Happens maybe 2x to 3x per year, I’d guess, trying to manage two stoves at the same time. 

Mind your clearances folks.  No matter how good you think you are at managing a stove, you or it will eventually fail.


----------

