# Froling Add-on Install



## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi guys, figured I'd get a thread going on my install. It's been a slow start but as the temps are starting to change it will become an increasing priority and will pick up a lot of speed. I'm adding a Froling FHGL to my existing baseboard heating system that has an oil boiler. I'll be using a solartechnics 820 gal thermal storage tank with a 100 kbtu/hr heat exchanger. For my configuration it made the most sense to add a small room on the outside of the basement foundation wall. I exceed all of my minimum clearances and have a very convenient location for the class A chimney pipe. Also, the storage tank will be located in a closet space on the other side of the foundation wall within 4 linear feet of the boiler. I'm working on finishing the metal roof and all the flashing and walls to get it buttoned up. Here are some pictures of the room I've been building. My long term goal is to have a lean-to all the way down the edge of my deck to stack my firewood under so I wanted to match the roof line on the room. I also didnt want the roof to be higher than. The deck boards. 

Ok, technical difficulty loading pictures. Seems the file is too large straight off my phone. I'd hate to have to use photo bucket. That adds a lot of work. Any suggestions?


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## Fred61 (Oct 4, 2017)

Transfer to computer then install a free program called PIC RESIZER.


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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)

Fred61 said:


> Transfer to computer then install a free program called PIC RESIZER.


You don't happen to know the max size do you?


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## Fred61 (Oct 4, 2017)

Marshy said:


> You don't happen to know the max size do you?



Don't know exactly what you're asking. Program allows you to pick any pixel size from the original size that the camera produces.


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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)

Fred61 said:


> Don't know exactly what you're asking. Program allows you to pick any pixel size from the original size that the camera produces.


Sorry, max size of files/photos on this site for upload.


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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)




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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)




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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)




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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)




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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)

That's basically where I'm at now. The room is roughly 6x8 and will have two windows in it and a 36" entry door. The room will have enough room to store about 1/3 or a face cord.


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## Fred61 (Oct 4, 2017)

Good pics! If you are using Re-sizer you could further reduce them so those of us with small screens don't have to scroll to see larger portions of the photo.


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## Highbeam (Oct 4, 2017)

So will the 820 gallons of storage be boiler water or floor water? Or will there be two heat exchangers?

Thank you for taking the time for this thread. Would love to hear about costs at the end since that is my reason for delaying or abandoning the wood boiler concept.


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## Marshy (Oct 4, 2017)

Neither. The Solartechnics tank is unpressurized holding tank for thermal storage. The system will be configured with a large copper coil heat exchanger that is submerged inside the tank. The heat exchanger will work for both heat addition and removal to/from the tank. The coil heat exchanger will be plumbed into the existing manifold system which is pressurized and circulates to the baseboard. The boiler controls will give priority to the house loads when demand is present and fire is burning otherwise the controls will recharge the tank. When there is no fire the heat comes from the tank. 
I've been kind of fortunate because I bought the tank used and I also bought my chimney pipe private but never used. I'll tabulate the costs later and let you know.


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## huffdawg (Oct 7, 2017)

Is your boiler one of these?


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## Marshy (Oct 7, 2017)

huffdawg said:


> Is your boiler one of these?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. It's a FHGL 20/30. Tarm had a few on sale so I picked one up.
How do you like yours?


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## huffdawg (Oct 9, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Yes. It's a FHGL 20/30. Tarm had a few on sale so I picked one up.
> How do you like yours?



Its been awesome, just started burning about a week ago. Small batch fires,  using the buffer tank , not the storage tanks yet.

Looks like your making a nice little home for yours.

Huff


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## Marshy (Oct 9, 2017)

huffdawg said:


> Its been awesome, just started burning about a week ago. Small batch fires,  using the buffer tank , not the storage tanks yet.
> 
> Looks like your making a nice little home for yours.
> 
> Huff


Yes, little home being the key. How large is your buffer tank? Got a build thread for your system?


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## huffdawg (Oct 9, 2017)

Search out with the old in with the old


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## Bad LP (Oct 10, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Yes. It's a FHGL 20/30. Tarm had a few on sale so I picked one up.
> How do you like yours?



They went on sale at a very attractive price just after I bought a used Scandtec Solo Plus 30 from a guy on here. I paid more for my tanks than I did for the boiler and pumps.


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## huffdawg (Oct 10, 2017)

huffdawg said:


> Search out with the old in with the new . QUOTE]
> My Buffer tank is 150 gallons


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## Marshy (Oct 10, 2017)

Bad LP said:


> They went on sale at a very attractive price just after I bought a used Scandtec Solo Plus 30 from a guy on here. I paid more for my tanks than I did for the boiler and pumps.


I got lucky, great boiler at a significant discount and a used modular storage tank with heat exchanger at a good price as well; and 25' of Selkirk for a song and dance. I'm hoping the total cost of the project including the room is $10k.


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## Marshy (Oct 16, 2017)

I made progress to the room enclosure but you probably can't tell how much. I wasn't able to take a picture yesterday before getting rained out. The metal roof is done and just have some flashing to finish. Next is get the chimney pipe installed.


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## Marshy (Oct 24, 2017)

Got the door installed and windows in. Did some more flashing but have some more to go. After flashing is done I'll install the chimney pipe, run some power wire, insulate the room, and sheetrock it with 5/8 board. Meanwhile I have a two part epoxy floor coating I'm painting the closet space with before the tank is assembled in the basement. Gotta kick it in high gear, fall is coming to a quick close it seems.


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## TCaldwell (Oct 24, 2017)

Looking good, but is there enough room for a chair and a beer?


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## Fred61 (Oct 24, 2017)

Never place a level on your construction project and then photograph it. Could be embarrassing.


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## Marshy (Oct 25, 2017)

TCaldwell said:


> Looking good, but is there enough room for a chair and a beer?


Thanks. Yes, probably enough for two chairs but unfortunately it might be kind of boring.


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## TCaldwell (Oct 25, 2017)

That was a trick question, you passed, it means you have a life beyond burning wood, or so I’ve been told!


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## Marshy (Oct 25, 2017)

TCaldwell said:


> That was a trick question, you passed, it means you have a life beyond burning wood, or so I’ve been told!


Ha! If there's enough heat coming off it I might still fall asleep in a chair in front of it while taking off my boots but seems doubtful.


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## Highbeam (Oct 25, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Thanks. Yes, probably enough for two chairs but unfortunately it might be kind of boring.



I was thinking about this when pondering a kuuma furnace in my shop. It would be an extremely functional upgrade but no window to view flames at all. I would have to do something besides stare at the fire!


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## oaksplitter (Nov 6, 2017)

I have similar system and think it awesome.   Your in good hands with folks at Tarm, especially if you are a DIY'r like myself.


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## Marshy (Nov 12, 2017)

I'm installing my American Solartechnics storage tank and realized I need some temp probes. Any recommendations?


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## Marshy (Nov 13, 2017)

@peakbagger, I read you have a solartechnics tank. Do you recall what temperature elements you used and where I could get some for my tank? Thanks.

@tom in maine, your help is appreciated.


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## peakbagger (Nov 13, 2017)

I use old school honeywell auqastats for my high temp cut off on the tank. That is the style with the sensing bulb attached to the control box with thin copper tube. Old school but it works. To actually see the temp of the tank I just have a thermocouple stuck down the same vent pipe as the sensing bulb hooked up to my fluke. 

I did pick up some cheap chinese temperature controler with digital readouts on Ebay that have a fairly large display they will read most types of thermocouples and thermisters i havent gotten around to installing them. I wouldnt trust them to control anything but if the displays work they are cheaper than buying a digital display. 

I did have some spare thermocouple wire when I installed the tank and set a thermocouple in the tank wall behind the liner at the bottom middle and top just for the chuckles. They all terminate with thermcouple plugs so I can plug them into the Fluke. 

One thing I did do different than ASTs installation is I put dricore under the tank. https://www.homedepot.com/p/DRIcore...core-Subfloor-Panel-CDGNUS750024024/202268752  I just wanted to make sure that air could get underneath if water somehow got in there.


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## Marshy (Nov 13, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> I use old school honeywell auqastats for my high temp cut off on the tank. That is the style with the sensing bulb attached to the control box with thin copper tube. Old school but it works. To actually see the temp of the tank I just have a thermocouple stuck down the same vent pipe as the sensing bulb hooked up to my fluke.
> 
> I did pick up some cheap chinese temperature controler with digital readouts on Ebay that have a fairly large display they will read most types of thermocouples and thermisters i havent gotten around to installing them. I wouldnt trust them to control anything but if the displays work they are cheaper than buying a digital display.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the flooring idea. I did happen to think about getting air under the tank to prevent mold in case moisture accumulated. I'll defiantly be getting some of this. I was going to add 2" of ridgid foam board under the tank as well.


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## Marshy (Nov 16, 2017)

Thanks for the advice on the DriCore sub flooring @peakbagger. It installs very quickly, especially in a closet area where you don't need to have to deal with finishing the edges. 14 squares made 7'9" x 6'9" pad for the tank. My "closet" space is 15' x 7'6" so I'll have a 1'3" space against the back wall (far right) to sneak around the tank and also have 1'9" to the back wall (front and center) to hook up plumbing. Plumbing will come straight out of the back of the boiler and through the wall with the 1x2 on it (from and center). The main hydronic header (and my oil boiler) is behind the wall on the far left.


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## Marshy (Nov 27, 2017)

Ok, more progress in assembly. Tank is up waiting for liner install. I have to cut back my shelf on the right so I can get behind the tank...





Boiler is nearly fully assembled and wired.




All the door hinges were on the right so I had to switch them around.

One disappointment was the fit of the clean out block plate opposite of the clean out door. Must be the welded on nuts are skewed.





Training the cables inside the controller takes some patience. The heavy cables for the air control actuators are not very flexible and the plastic clamps provided for the knock-out penetrations are way too small to clamp on them. Getting them trained so there's not a lot of stress in the board plug is tricky.  Partially complete wiring.


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## maple1 (Nov 27, 2017)

Did you contact the vendor or company about that sloppy door? That is pretty disappointing looking. Otherwise - looking good!


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## Highbeam (Nov 27, 2017)

Did you forget the jack studs on that window?


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## Bad LP (Nov 27, 2017)

Screw the wood work... That wire connection block looks like a PITA. Why can't they give a cabinet style block from the factory?  Make it big with room to move around with. Code is 6" free wire last I knew. I was down to 2" using freaking pliers. Thank God I was using EMT and stuffed the extra back in to the boxes.


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## jebatty (Nov 28, 2017)

Maybe a little late for monitoring input. This is the monitoring panel I built for a Froling. Digital panel meters (except flue) with DS18b20 sensors are readily available on Ebay. Cat5 cable for the wiring. Flue panel meter has a type K sensor. Top row is storage tank top, middle and bottom. Middle row is boiler supply, boiler return, and flue. Bottom row is system supply to storage and system return to storage.


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## maple1 (Nov 28, 2017)

jebatty said:


> Maybe a little late for monitoring input. This is the monitoring panel I built for a Froling. Digital panel meters (except flue) with DS18b20 sensors are readily available on Ebay. Cat5 cable for the wiring. Flue panel meter has a type K sensor. Top row is storage tank top, middle and bottom. Middle row is boiler supply, boiler return, and flue. Bottom row is system supply to storage and system return to storage.
> 
> View attachment 216683



Ever have problems with those?

I have two that are wonky most times. Mine alternate between 2 sensors, and one of them gets stuck on 185. That's happening in 2 guages. Weird how the two separate guages can sit there flashing 185 at the exact same time. They've been powered up & showing temps for around 5 years straight though, which maybe isn't more than one could expect for what they are.


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## jebatty (Nov 28, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I have two that are wonky most times. Mine alternate between 2 sensors, and one of them gets stuck on 185. That's happening in 2 guages.



I occasionally also had this experience with two of about 30 digital displays I have in service on four display panels. All the panels have been in service for more than five years. I found that if I disconnected and then reconnected the wire to the meter the problem was solved. I had to extend the cable from the meter to the sensor with Cat5, and I twisted and soldered all splices. I didn't use the two display option, as I found this to be distracting.


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## Marshy (Nov 28, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> Did you forget the jack studs on that window?


No, the wall is not load bearing.



maple1 said:


> Did you contact the vendor or company about that sloppy door? That is pretty disappointing looking. Otherwise - looking good!


No, not yet. That same block off plate came installed on the opposite side of the boiler but was moved to this side. I never reinstalled it on the original side to see if maybe the bolt holes were off on the plate but it appears to be from the nuts that are welded onto the boiler jacket. Not much the dealer can do do me unfortunately.



Bad LP said:


> Screw the wood work... That wire connection block looks like a PITA. Why can't they give a cabinet style block from the factory?  Make it big with room to move around with. Code is 6" free wire last I knew. I was down to 2" using freaking pliers. Thank God I was using EMT and stuffed the extra back in to the boxes.


The instructions get quite vague at this point also. It tells you where to hook the plugs into on the controller but it doesn't give all the instructions to install the knock-out panel. That's just one example. It also doesn't include instructions on how the BLT controller interfaces with the boiler control. They leave a lot to be desired for the DIY guys like myself. I'm getting there though.



jebatty said:


> Maybe a little late for monitoring input. This is the monitoring panel I built for a Froling. Digital panel meters (except flue) with DS18b20 sensors are readily available on Ebay. Cat5 cable for the wiring. Flue panel meter has a type K sensor. Top row is storage tank top, middle and bottom. Middle row is boiler supply, boiler return, and flue. Bottom row is system supply to storage and system return to storage.
> View attachment 216683


I'd like to know more about it, did you have a build thread to point me to? I'll have to check but believe my FHG can display all those parameters if I toggle the display.

Looked to me that there is a cat5 jacket in the controler labeled as COM, I also see a memory card. My guess is only authorized dealers can access that info. 

Have you seen the capabilities of the new Froling Turbo S3? You can have 4 temp probes and it has more features than the FHG... the boiler itself is a S3 but with FHG controls. They sent S3 install/operating instructions inside the Firefox but the FHG install/operating instructions came via email. It was one of the last 10 FHG being sold.


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## Marshy (Nov 28, 2017)

oaksplitter said:


> I have similar system and think it awesome.   Your in good hands with folks at Tarm, especially if you are a DIY'r like myself.
> View attachment 215287


Can you take a picture of the back of your boiler for me? I feel like there should be a small square plate in the upper corners for the wires to exit/enter. Instead, it just appears to be an open hole... thanks.


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## jebatty (Nov 29, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I'll have to check but believe my FHG can display all those parameters if I toggle the display.



Toggling through a display is OK. I like a display that in a glance lets me see all of the parameters which are important or most informative. That's why I did the display panel for the Froling. Easy to find these panel meters by searching in Ebay or Amazon or otherwise "ds18b20 temperature sensor meter" or similar search.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 29, 2017)

Nice!


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## Marshy (Nov 29, 2017)

jebatty said:


> Toggling through a display is OK. I like a display that in a glance lets me see all of the parameters which are important or most informative. That's why I did the display panel for the Froling. Easy to find these panel meters by searching in Ebay or Amazon or otherwise "ds18b20 temperature sensor meter" or similar search.


Right on. Not sure how it is all connected, that's why I was asking about a thread.

I can see the appeal it has. Right now it's a struggle to get this operating asap given the time I'm available and how late in the season it is. I'm no electrician and only have a small background with I&C. I have a lot of questions about it before I could get it integrated. Such as; is the flue temp probe wired to the red box for displayed then connect to the controller like the display is in series?
I searched "ds18b20" and variations and found the probe with a display. Did you build the red box? How did you connect the probes on the supply and return temp, tape the probe to the pipe and insulate it?

Edit: I just searched this site and found your thread. https://hearth.com/talk/threads/mor...ital-readout-data-logger.160667/#post-2158106
Thanks

I think I might buy two sensors and place them inside the tank so that way I can come back at a later date and use them for this. If nothing else, if I ever had one fail I'd have a redundant probe already installed.


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I searched "ds18b20" and variations and found the probe with a display. Did you build the red box? How did you connect the probes on the supply and return temp, tape the probe to the pipe and insulate it?



That's what I did - just taped a piece of pipe insulation over the sensors. I have the same gauges. I got the dual display ones - two sensors for one gauge. Which alternate back & forth every couple seconds or so. I just got some big cheap hinged electrical boxes for mine and cut out holes the right size. Which was a bit of a PITA. I think I drilled the corners of the holes then used a jig saw. Have to be careful on cutting the holes out - too small & gauges won't quite go in far enough to click in place, too big and they won't stay put. But the hinged door was good for getting them mounted & wired & the mess of wires hidden away. Four gauges per box - the second box I never did get finished. Too many distractions...


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## Marshy (Nov 29, 2017)

I was thinking it would be nice to know the temp differential at each loop but I could always just use a Flir gun. 
@maple1 do you have a data recorder hooked to yours also?


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## maple1 (Nov 29, 2017)

No recording. Just looking & seeing.


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## jebatty (Nov 29, 2017)

For the Froling display, I had the sheet metal cover, found a box that it would fit, cut out the openings for the meters, painted the cover red to match the Froling, and then used stick-on lettering. 

Data recording can be useful, especially to spot and diagnose any anomaly. I also use DS18b20 sensors to do this. My latest foray into temperature data recording is with a Raspberry Pi computer running a Python program. I did the programming myself, using available programs in Python and then modifying them to do what I wanted. The RPi can handle multiple sensors and with the Python program can be customized and is very flexible. I am hoping this winter, when I have more spare time, to add programming for control (off-on) of devices, like circulators, valves, fans, etc.


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## Chris Hoskin (Nov 30, 2017)

One disappointment was the fit of the clean out block plate opposite of the clean out door. Must be the welded on nuts are skewed.
View attachment 216620


seems like the left hand mounting bolt must not be engaged properly with the nut behind it?  Somethings not right here, can you take another look?  As you say, the nuts are welded to the door frame / port and the frame is welded to the boiler.  Try loosening the two on the right so that you can adjust the plate/insulation block square to the boiler.  Once you have all three bolts started, you should be able to push the assembly against the boiler so that it is flush and then tighten all three screws.  This is a gasketed seal and it is important because the exhaust gasses travel back there.  Let me know.


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## Marshy (Nov 30, 2017)

Chris Hoskin said:


> One disappointment was the fit of the clean out block plate opposite of the clean out door. Must be the welded on nuts are skewed.
> View attachment 216620
> 
> 
> seems like the left hand mounting bolt must not be engaged properly with the nut behind it?  Somethings not right here, can you take another look?  As you say, the nuts are welded to the door frame / port and the frame is welded to the boiler.  Try loosening the two on the right so that you can adjust the plate/insulation block square to the boiler.  Once you have all three bolts started, you should be able to push the assembly against the boiler so that it is flush and then tighten all three screws.  This is a gasketed seal and it is important because the exhaust gasses travel back there.  Let me know.


I will take a second look. The gasket appears to be making contact all the way around.  I will attempt to rectify let you know. Thanks for your support.

By the way, I installed the overheat aquastat in the boiler jacket with the provided well but after reading the Honeywell instructions included with the aquastat they show the bulb being held into the well with either a retainer clamp or compression fitting. Neither was provided. Is it acceptable to just push the bulb into the well?


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## Chris Hoskin (Nov 30, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I will take a second look. The gasket appears to be making contact all the way around.  I will attempt to rectify let you know. Thanks for your support.
> 
> By the way, I installed the overheat aquastat in the boiler jacket with the provided well but after reading the Honeywell instructions included with the aquastat they show the bulb being held into the well with either a retainer clamp or compression fitting. Neither was provided. Is it acceptable to just push the bulb into the well?


just make sure the sensor is well down in the well and you be fine.  Well, well, well!


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## Marshy (Dec 7, 2017)

I have some general hardware questions for you guys that have plumbed your boiler. I'm ordering my tubing, fittings and valves. The plumbing layout provided by Froling say to use weighted swing check valves. While searching Grangers and supply house I cannot find any that are weighted swing check valves, only spring loaded in-line check valves...

Is the in-line spring loaded check ok to use?


Second question is about air removal. I was going to go with the Amtrol Expansion tank with air purged and vent. I already have this setup coming out of my oil boiler and will add this to the outlet of the wood boiler. Is this sufficient for air removal of should i use an air purge thst has a coalescing element to scrub air?

@Chris Hoskin, thoughts?











Amtrol with purge and vent.
	

		
			
		

		
	






Air eliminator only.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 7, 2017)

McMaster Carr has swing checks...


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## Marshy (Dec 7, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> McMaster Carr has swing checks...


Weighted?
Never thought of checking them for prices. Thanks.

Refresh for edited post and second question above.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 7, 2017)

I personally have never seen a small weighted check...3-4" and up is my experience...maybe they exist though, IDK...
This is what I'm familiar with as a weighted check valve...


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## Marshy (Dec 7, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> I personally have never seen a small weighted check...3-4" and up is my experience...maybe they exist though, IDK...
> This is what I'm familiar with as a weighted check valve...
> View attachment 217298


Me too. I worked on a 42" anchor darling tilted seat swinging disk check before. I have little residential experience beyond hooking up a water heater. That's why I was asking about the in-line spring check.


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## peakbagger (Dec 7, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Me too. I worked on a 42" anchor darling tilted seat swinging disk check before. I have little residential experience beyond hooking up a water heater. That's why I was asking about the in-line spring check.


I think they mean one of these 

https://www.pexuniverse.com/taco-219-4-flo-check-valve


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## Fred61 (Dec 7, 2017)

I have one of these lying under my workbench and one in my system

https://www.zoro.com/watts-flow-check-valve-1-in-fnpt-cast-iron-2000-1/i/G0983762/?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=RLSA_PLA_Site Visitors&utm_term=4581939831493080&utm_content=Pipes, Valves & Fittings&gclid=CMHin8-F-dcCFcqzswodWbQHbA&gclsrc=ds


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## maple1 (Dec 7, 2017)

I just used ordinary swing check valves like in the pic above the expansion tank above. No issues 5+ years later. I think I was warned about possible chattering but haven't heard any of that. I actually took the flapper out of one and drilled a small hole in it to let a bit of water past when heating from backup. Just to maintain my storage temps a bit and also cut down on short cycling of my backup boiler. And I also used just an ordinary air vent like it sounds like what you say you already have. Not much fancy stuff on the supplier shelves here.


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## Marshy (Dec 8, 2017)

Thanks guys.  @Fred61, I'll probably avoid the watts check valve because it will cost about twice as much as the one I posted above after I buy the NPT to C adapter to sweat it in line. 

@maple1, I do already have an Amtrol like in the picture above. It's at the outlet of my oil boiler but I need one at the outlet of the wood boiler as well. Maybe not with fill capability because the other one will fill when water is circulated to the heating zones but I do need expansion capability in the wood boiler loop.


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## nhtreehouse (Dec 8, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I just used ordinary swing check valves like in the pic above the expansion tank above. No issues 5+ years later. I think I was warned about possible chattering but haven't heard any of that.



All the literature suggests a minimum of 12 pipe diameters straight run before the swing check. I'm working on piping right now and things are a bit tight, space wise. Any idea how long your straight run is before the swing check? I might be able to get 12D, but I'll likely have a full port ball valve in there. Piping seems like a huge compromise every way one looks at it.


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## Marshy (Dec 10, 2017)

nhtreehouse said:


> All the literature suggests a minimum of 12 pipe diameters straight run before the swing check. I'm working on piping right now and things are a bit tight, space wise. Any idea how long your straight run is before the swing check? I might be able to get 12D, but I'll likely have a full port ball valve in there. Piping seems like a huge compromise every way one looks at it.


Since @maple1 didn't reply I'll give you my opinion. A full port ball valve wind make much turbulence and if you can get 10 pipe diameters instead of 12 you'll still be fine.


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## maple1 (Dec 10, 2017)

nhtreehouse said:


> All the literature suggests a minimum of 12 pipe diameters straight run before the swing check. I'm working on piping right now and things are a bit tight, space wise. Any idea how long your straight run is before the swing check? I might be able to get 12D, but I'll likely have a full port ball valve in there. Piping seems like a huge compromise every way one looks at it.




Missed your question. I just looked. I only have 3" in front of one and 5" in front of the other. Had no idea about the 12x talk when I put this stuff together, but haven't seen any ill effects.


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## Marshy (Dec 15, 2017)

Ok, I've been dragging my feet long enough. I searched high and low looking for the best deals on copper and fittings and trying to figure out how this all gets plumbed together. It was a close tie but I chose to go with SupplyHouse.com over coppertubingsales.com

When it came down to it, it was within $20 for the common parts at each store. The cavet was supply house doesn't sell copper tubing and the other site did so I use my local hardware store prices to supliment the tubing in my cost comparison. Even though supply house was only about $20 higher, I still needed some more things from supply house so I went with one stop shopping.

Thst being said, I bought everything I think I needed minus the tubing and it was $500. EEK.
Plus someone gave me about $60 in fittings for free. Also, I still need about 40' of 1-1/4" type M tubing which is $42/10' locally.

More to follow. While I'm waiting for the copper to come in I'll start tallying up all the other expenses made thus far. So begins the sulking also. Let there be bourbon I say.


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## maple1 (Dec 16, 2017)

I would maybe suggest not tallying anything until perhaps 2 years from now - it won't sting QUITE as bad.

Also, there were at least 10 times through my build when I said 'there, I have everything I need now'. Only to find myself running back to the supplier the next day.


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## peakbagger (Dec 16, 2017)

I must admit, if I am doing a big piping project, I visit home depot and buy more fittings than I need then return the ones I dont use. I make sure they are kept in good condition and they do end with a pretty good net sale.


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## Marshy (Dec 17, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> I must admit, if I am doing a big piping project, I visit home depot and buy more fittings than I need then return the ones I dont use. I make sure they are kept in good condition and they do end with a pretty good net sale.


They don't have crap for 1-1/4" fittings beyond an elbow. What they did have is twice as much as you can buy them for online.  Lowes 1-1/4" elbow CxC is $7.04, supply house has them for $2.90. When you need 10 or 12 fittings that kind of mark up gets ridiculous. I mapped every thing out on paper and bought what I unlink I need.  If I'm one or two short I'm run to town and get a few fittings but that's it.  Normal retail is outrageous.


----------



## hiker88 (Dec 18, 2017)

Hi Marshy,

I haven't logged on in a long time; did it today out of a whim.  Looks like you and I will have about the same setup.  I have the Solar Technics 820 gallon system, and the BLT controller from Tarm as well.

Yesterday it was about a high of 17f.  Spent the day at 70f indoors with the main door open, and just the glass storm door between us and the elements (we like to let the light in). The system is still going strong and I don't worry about heat anymore.

Let me know if you have any questions; I'll try and check back in more regularly.


----------



## Marshy (Dec 18, 2017)

Thanks for tuning in Hiker88. I put up some sheetrock in the boiler room over the weekend. Still have a lot of rock to put up but need to get the insulation done.  All the funky surfaces in the celing need insulating and I have no nailer in the corners so some are just floating. Other area are getting getting ridgid foam board for insulation before rock. Should look a lot different next time I show pics. Motivation is high right now because I'm sick of bringing in arm loads of firewood. That and my shenandoah stove is quite inefficient.


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## hiker88 (Dec 28, 2017)

Marshy, how goes the battle?

I have made one concession and we have closed the front door!  -15 tonight, and a wicked cold streak ahead.  Might be pushing 120 lbs a day in burns the last week.


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## Marshy (Dec 28, 2017)

Current status...





Edit: if anyone is reading this and about to sweat their own plumbing system, always put the union in line with the threaded adapter it will make your life easier! Either that or sweat the elbow on after the threaded adapter is installed.


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## huffdawg (Dec 29, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Current status...
> View attachment 219059
> 
> 
> Edit: if anyone is reading this and about to sweat their own plumbing system, always put the union in line with the threaded adapter it will make your life easier! Either that or sweat the elbow on after the threaded adapter is installed.



Some nice clean sweating there.  Is that your near boiler piping?


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## Marshy (Dec 29, 2017)

Thanks for the compliment. I'm learning as I go. The real test will be under pressure lol. 

Yes,  that will thread into the hot outlet of the boiler jacket.  There are a few galvanised fittings provided by Tarm for the pressure relief valve.  I'll have a few more pics as I go. Should be able to get the boilers circulator, heat exchanger and emergency dump zone plumbed. Gotta run to get more copper pipe right now and run a few errands.


----------



## huffdawg (Dec 29, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Thanks for the compliment. I'm learning as I go. The real test will be under pressure lol.
> 
> Yes,  that will thread into the hot outlet of the boiler jacket.  There are a few galvanised fittings provided by Tarm for the pressure relief valve.  I'll have a few more pics as I go. Should be able to get the boilers circulator, heat exchanger and emergency dump zone plumbed. Gotta run to get more copper pipe right now and run a few errands.
> View attachment 219096



That looks excellent. Is that 1-1/4" or 1-1/2"?    I used die-electric unions at the boiler inlet and outlet , it was recommended by the froling dealer. Not actually sure if they were a must have , but would have been a little easier to plumb without, with the tight clearance to the wall.


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## huffdawg (Dec 29, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I would maybe suggest not tallying anything until perhaps 2 years from now - it won't sting QUITE as bad.
> 
> Also, there were at least 10 times through my build when I said 'there, I have everything I need now'. Only to find myself running back to the supplier the next day.



Lol.. I felt the pain also . I never did tally it up.


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## Marshy (Dec 29, 2017)

huffdawg said:


> That looks excellent. Is that 1-1/4" or 1-1/2"?    I used die-electric unions at the boiler inlet and outlet , it was recommended by the froling dealer. Not actually sure if they were a must have , but would have been a little easier to plumb without, with the tight clearance to the wall.


I knew nothing about them. Would have used them if I had known. What's another few $ at this point! It's all 1-1/4" type M.

Yeah, so I've only sweat some small copper and never very much. Watched a few YouTube videos and now I'm an expert. Well, better wait until after the pressure test to claim that lol.

Air purger and expansion tank will go about here and I'll get tee's plumbed for the dump zone. To the left you can see plywood pained white. That's where the pump and diverter valve will go.

No liner installed yet. Figured I'd wait until I was done playing with fire and molten metal.





BTW, I used permatex liquid tread sealant with PTFE at threaded connections. Stuff works well. It's like liquid pipe tape.


----------



## huffdawg (Dec 29, 2017)

*Dielectric Unions* Stop Galvanic Corrosion. To avoid this plumbers use a special coupling called a *dielectric union*. It's a coupling that acts as an electrical barrier between the two metals. One side is made of copper; the other, steel.
You would need to put them at the black iron nipples coming out of the boiler.

Then again what you have might be totally fine , be a bunch more work to install at this point .

Also I dont know what quality unions you have available there , I had to put that thread sealant on the mating surfaces of the unions to make them watertight , you might want to dab some on before you get it all together.. could save you some time .


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## hiker88 (Dec 29, 2017)

Looking good!  Don't you love climbing in and out of the storage tank when your filling your voids and taping etc?


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## brenndatomu (Dec 29, 2017)

huffdawg said:


> I used die-electric unions at the boiler inlet and outlet , it was recommended by the froling dealer. Not actually sure if they were a must have


Pretty much a requirement...but a standard union _will_ work...for a while... 
As much as it sucks to redo it now...it will be a lot worse later...


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## Marshy (Dec 29, 2017)

Doubt Im going to change it now. I have other copper threaded connections into iron within my existing hydronic system that doesn't have dielectric connections. I might look beck on this and curse myself but it will be in 20 years or more lol. My pumps have dielectric flange kits because they have a steel flange and a bronze valve.


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## maple1 (Dec 30, 2017)

I didn't use any dielectrics in mine - have copper connected directly to black iron in a few places. Actually the old boiler system didn't have any either, and it was 17 years in when I redid the boiler, with no issues. Maybe not as pertinent with a closed system? One thing I did do was use a tiny dab of MotoSeal on the union mating faces, which I had on hand and decided to try on a whim - I have had issues with getting unions to not drip a little bit, in the past. Didn't have one union drip issue. So that's SOP for me & unions from now on.

Anybody else find it odd that galvanized parts would be supplied? That is one thing I avoided all together.

Looks good!!


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## Marshy (Dec 30, 2017)

It's black iron, I misspoke when I called it galvanized.


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## huffdawg (Dec 30, 2017)

Marshy said:


> It's black iron, I misspoke when I called it galvanized.
> View attachment 219214



looks like those tees are galvanized.


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## Marshy (Dec 30, 2017)

Looks like my take sensor wires will be too short. I'll have to add wire. What are you guys using, 20 gauge thermostat wire? Solder the joints?


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## maple1 (Dec 30, 2017)

huffdawg said:


> looks like those tees are galvanized.



I'm calling BI.


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## Marshy (Dec 30, 2017)

LoL you guys crack me up. Don't care!  LoL 

Next question for you guys that are using the American Solartechnics tanks... My heat exchanger had some zip ties on the small tubing to the main manifold. Mine no longer have any, should I put ties back on it? Also, the one manifols doesn't want to sit flat on the edge of the tank... is this common or cannot be resolved if the tire were on it?


----------



## huffdawg (Dec 30, 2017)

maple1 said:


> I'm calling BI.


Just the colour of them


Marshy said:


> LoL you guys crack me up. Don't care!  LoL
> 
> Sorry marsh I wasnt calling u a liar , just said looks like.. That black iron is quite a different colour than the stuff I used... mine was cheap chinese made stuff.


----------



## Marshy (Dec 30, 2017)

You guys are fine, I was joking. See my questions above. Thanks!!


----------



## peakbagger (Dec 30, 2017)

Marshy said:


> LoL you guys crack me up. Don't care!  LoL
> 
> Next question for you guys that are using the American Solartechnics tanks... My heat exchanger had some zip ties on the small tubing to the main manifold. Mine no longer have any, should I put ties back on it? Also, the one manifols doesn't want to sit flat on the edge of the tank... is this common or cannot be resolved if the tire were on it?
> View attachment 219227



You might want to get in touch with "Tom in Maine". If I remember correctly when I had to pull my coil all the zip ties were brittle or sitting at the bottom of the tank. I believe they were there to make it easier to get the coil into the tank. I ended putting some back on when I pulled the coil as otherwise it was a "bundle of snakes". Tom now supplies a Stainless coil but I am not sure if its different design. Mine was not sitting exactly right on the wall when I put it back in but once I hooked the unions up it straightened out.


----------



## brenndatomu (Dec 30, 2017)

peakbagger said:


> You might want to get in touch with "Tom in Maine". If I remember correctly when I had to pull my coil all the zip ties were brittle or sitting at the bottom of the tank. I believe they were there to make it easier to get the coil into the tank. I ended putting some back on when I pulled the coil as otherwise it was a "bundle of snakes". Tom now supplies a Stainless coil but I am not sure if its different design. Mine was not sitting exactly right on the wall when I put it back in but once I hooked the unions up it straightened out.


They make stainless zip ties...
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-stainless-steel-cable-ties-25-pk-69413.html


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## Marshy (Dec 30, 2017)

brenndatomu said:


> They make stainless zip ties...
> https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-stainless-steel-cable-ties-25-pk-69413.html


Wouldn't  galvanic corrosion be a concern? 

Sorry, had to. LoL. Good idea, I'll consider getting some.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 30, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Wouldn't galvanic corrosion be a concern


Only if it turns out those are _galvan-_ized fittings...


----------



## Marshy (Dec 31, 2017)




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## Marshy (Dec 31, 2017)

Is there a recommended minimum distance I should maintain between the pump suction and the mixing valve on the left? Is it going to cause any issues if it's about as close as pictured? I could move the pump to the right some if needed.


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2017)

Should be OK. My loading unit has the pump built right into the thermo body.


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## Marshy (Dec 31, 2017)

One joint at a time.


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2017)

Get some extra slip couplings? I had a couple instances where I had to fix something and it was easier and faster to recip saw a section out and solder it back in quick with a couple of couplings.


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## Marshy (Dec 31, 2017)

maple1 said:


> Get some extra slip couplings? I had a couple instances where I had to fix something and it was easier and faster to recip saw a section out and solder it back in quick with a couple of couplings.


I have some on hand if needed. I should probably add a drain some where.


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2017)

It really sucked laying out the cash for them at the time, but lots of ball valves for isolating components is nice to have too. Although you don't have to worry about letting a few hundred gallons out to fix something...


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## Marshy (Dec 31, 2017)

Every major component will have a nearby union and a way to isolate flow if need to replace it. The only exceptions are the check valves. So, the emergency dump zone has unions, the storage tanknheat exchanger, the pumps, and diverting valve and mixing valve. The cool part about the diverting and mixong valves are they have a ball valve in their union connection.


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2017)

About those little ball valves. My LK810 has the same ones. I used them last year when I took the plug out of the end of the circ to unstick a stuck pump. They were very hard to turn and as soon as i turned them they started weeping a little out of the stem. I finished what i was doing and opened them again, and they stopped weeping. But next time i will use the other ordinary ball valves further away from the unit, I don't really trust the little built in ones any more.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 31, 2017)

maple1 said:


> lots of ball valves for isolating components is nice to have too


Yes! Swap out a component in minutes VS hours


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## TCaldwell (Jan 1, 2018)

Looks great, my only comment is on the pipe hangers, while your insulating replace with the cradle type that goes around the outside of the insulated pipe. They are fastened and adjusted with threaded rod, the whole assembly stays at room temp rather than 180 deg legs protruding through the insulation


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## Marshy (Jan 1, 2018)

Thanks for the info @maple1.  I suppose a little leak/weap is no big deal just for an emergency repair on something. Probably something I'm willing to tolerate at this point.



TCaldwell said:


> Looks great, my only comment is on the pipe hangers, while your insulating replace with the cradle type that goes around the outside of the insulated pipe. They are fastened and adjusted with threaded rod, the whole assembly stays at room temp rather than 180 deg legs protruding through the insulation


Do you have an example? I looked at the split ring hangers like your talking but they were all for uninsulated pipe. Looked like the U clamps used with unistrut can accommodate insulated pipe though. I have no plans to hang unistrut. Besides, heat loss will be within my heating envelope. I could put the strapped the insulation too. I'll remember to leave enough strap to go over the insulation.


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## Marshy (Jan 1, 2018)

I need a peer check, can't find where it's written in my manuals anywhere. Calling @hiker88 

Is the hot supply from my boiler piped to the top of my coil heat exchanger, right?


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## hiker88 (Jan 1, 2018)

Marshy said:


> I need a peer check, can't find where it's written in my manuals anywhere. Calling @hiker88
> 
> Is the hot supply from my boiler piped to the top of my coil heat exchanger, right?


one sec.


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## hiker88 (Jan 1, 2018)

Marshy said:


> I need a peer check, can't find where it's written in my manuals anywhere. Calling @hiker88
> 
> Is the hot supply from my boiler piped to the top of my coil heat exchanger, right?


Per my setup via Tarm (short answer to you is "yes", but read on.)

"If no zones are calling for heat, the zone valve ZV1 will remain closed.  All of the hot water being moved by C3 must travel through the heating coils in the tank, *moving from top to bottom* and then back through Port 2 of the termovar and back to the boiler."

And not to distract, but this is where the BLT controller and that ZV1 valve shine.  With any zone calling for heat, storage is bypassed except for some ghost flow.  So, as soon as your boiler gets to 65c, C3 kicks on, and you are getting heat to the living spaces.  Not a lot at first, but this boiler will get to 65c quick in most cases, and then it just keeps building temps.  As soon as heat demand is met, ZV1 closes and forces all the flow through storage.

On a day like today that topped out at 2f at 1400 this afternoon, I can hear ZV1 opening and closing throughout the day when I am in the basement.


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## Marshy (Jan 1, 2018)

hiker88 said:


> one sec.


No hurry, the snow continues to fall regardless lol.


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## hiker88 (Jan 1, 2018)

Marshy said:


> No hurry, the snow continues to fall regardless lol.
> View attachment 219456



Wowzers.  You must be in the lake effect region?  I love snow, but I try to be sensitive because I know not everyone sharers the sentiment.  That looks pretty awesome.


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## Marshy (Jan 1, 2018)

Yes, I'm on the south eastern edge of lake Ontario. I love the snow. It's quite entertaining. Thanks for the above info. Was having a hard time finding it.


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## Marshy (Jan 2, 2018)

You know its getting interesting when you have to plow the plow out before you can plow the house out.


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## Chris Hoskin (Jan 2, 2018)

huffdawg said:


> looks like those tees are galvanized.


they are black iron


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2018)

Is that a cast iron air separator you're using?


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## Marshy (Jan 2, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> Is that a cast iron air separator you're using?


Yes, it's called an air scoop. It's made by Amtrol. It has an air purger on top with 1/8" NPT connection and a npt connection on bottom for an expansion tank on bottom. You can get them with an auto-full valve too.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-444-1-1-1-4-Air-Purger-1-8-NPT-Vent-125-PSI-Cast-Iron


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2018)

I personally feel the Spirovent or similar work better than cast iron.  I'm not  an expert though.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Spirotherm-VJS125-1-1-4-Spirovent-Jr-Air-Eliminator-Sweat-9307000-p


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## Marshy (Jan 2, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> I personally feel the Spirovent or similar work better than cast iron.  I'm not  an expert though.
> https://www.supplyhouse.com/Spirotherm-VJS125-1-1-4-Spirovent-Jr-Air-Eliminator-Sweat-9307000-p



Two different technologies to do the same thing. The spirotherm will remove more air because it uses a coalescing medium that "scrubs" the air from the system fluid. The air scoop is passive and uses baffels and pressure changes to remove air. Its effectiveness has little to do with the material the body is made from as you can get coalescing air separators with cast iron bodies. 

Anyways, its a tradeoff. The Spirotherm air separator is $135, the air scoop wirh expansion tank and purger was about 60-65. I could always add the spirotherm later. If I do, I would probably consider adding the Spirotherm air eliminator/dirt separator. It costs $290, ouch.  

Where do you draw the line? What did you use? What is necessary vs what is nice to have?


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## velvetfoot (Jan 2, 2018)

Spirotherm.  I think it works better than the air scoop I had.  Alas, I have two since I put the first one too far from the boiler, I figured, and didn't feel like moving the first one, lol.


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## Marshy (Jan 2, 2018)

Yes I believe it does, but it is necessary or a nice to have?


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## maple1 (Jan 3, 2018)

I don't think I would say it's necessary. I've just got 'old school' stuff on mine.


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## Marshy (Jan 3, 2018)

I'm not trying to be abrasive. I honestly don't know the answers to the questions I posed donuts hard for me to justify the extra expense. What I do know is engrained air/oxygen


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## velvetfoot (Jan 3, 2018)

I usually don't run my system as much you since I have a wood stove too.  Maybe the scoop would do better in that case because of all the reheats.  I still  hear the Spirovent spit when the coolant temp is near max.  Maybe not so much now since I'm running exclusively on oil since the wood insert's glass is cracked, but that's another story.


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## maple1 (Jan 3, 2018)

Marshy said:


> I'm not trying to be abrasive. I honestly don't know the answers to the questions I posed donuts hard for me to justify the extra expense. What I do know is engrained air/oxygen



Expensive donuts aren't much better than cheaper ones most times either.


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## Marshy (Jan 3, 2018)

HA! That was meant to say:

Im not trying to be abrasive. I honestly don't know the answers to the questions I asked.

I agree the spirotherm is a superior product but it's also pricy, especially the one with the dirt separator...

What I do know is entrained air/oxygen causes corrosion on the steel/iron components, can cause cavitation at the pump and erosion of the pump internals, it reduces heat transfer and can be a source of noise in the pipes.

If the difference is 99% air removal vs 99.9% with the better separator then it's probably not worth it. (Hypothetically speaking because I don't know how effective the scoops are.)


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## Marshy (Jan 6, 2018)

34 solder joints for the day. That might not seem very impressive to some but when you consider I don't have a fitting brush and have been cleaning all the fitting with plumbers tape, it's time consuming!


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## TCaldwell (Jan 7, 2018)

Your fingers sore? With anything over 1inch I prefer the tape, think it does a better job. Looks nice


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## Marshy (Jan 7, 2018)

I should have bought a few 1-1/4" brushes, I feel like it would be quicker. I'd use the tape first then the brush for those areas at the bottom of the cup and any flaws where the tape doesn't get good. I'll have a better grip when this is through lol.


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## Marshy (Jan 7, 2018)

Today has been a snow day so far. Just had to catch up with the winter chores before we get more snow. I shoveled my ridge vents on the house, a small deck so it don't collapse, brought in firewood and did some snowblowing. Went to plow and tractor wouldn't start, battery was too cold so I remove it and carried back to the house from the barn down in the field. I'm pooped.


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## huffdawg (Jan 19, 2018)

TCaldwell said:


> Your fingers sore? With anything over 1inch I prefer the tape, think it does a better job. Looks nice



I’ve watched the plumbers at our refit facility sweat copper, when the copper is all new and shiney they don’t clean it . I couldn’t do that on my own plumbing but I’ve seen their copper work last yrs. with no issues.   Looking good by the way. At least you don’t need a 120 gals of expansion tank .


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## Marshy (Jan 19, 2018)

Yikes, not a risk I'm willing to take. They do make self cleaning flux but I also read it's not 100%. I've spent a lot of time cleaning the fittings. It's taken a lot longer than I imagined. That's what happens when you have no experience lol.

Overall I have a lot to do still. Im about to get the htx plumbed, I have all the piping on the hot supply after the zone valve mocked up. I still have the return from the zones to mock up, all the way back the the diverter valve, and a recirc loop between the supply header and return header. Gotta run the wired to the circulator and run 240 power to the boiler. Still habe the tank liner to install and fill with water. I'm working on copper tonight and putting the chimney in tomorrow. Then fixing a power steering leak on Sunday. Other than the whoke family being sick im just peachy. Fug me.


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## maple1 (Jan 19, 2018)

Frolings with power steering - man they are really ahead of the curve.


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## huffdawg (Jan 20, 2018)

Marshy said:


> Yikes, not a risk I'm willing to take. They do make self cleaning flux but I also read it's not 100%. I've spent a lot of time cleaning the fittings. It's taken a lot longer than I imagined. That's what happens when you have no experience lol.
> 
> Overall I have a lot to do still. Im about to get the htx plumbed, I have all the piping on the hot supply after the zone valve mocked up. I still have the return from the zones to mock up, all the way back the the diverter valve, and a recirc loop between the supply header and return header. Gotta run the wired to the circulator and run 240 power to the boiler. Still habe the tank liner to install and fill with water. I'm working on copper tonight and putting the chimney in tomorrow. Then fixing a power steering leak on Sunday. Other than the whoke family being sick im just peachy. Fug me.



I thought you guys down there used some sort of step down transformer to use 120v to the boiler?


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## Marshy (Jan 20, 2018)

huffdawg said:


> I thought you guys down there used some sort of step down transformer to use 120v to the boiler?


The boiler main power is 240v and 120v out to the circulators. No transformer.


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## warno (Jan 20, 2018)

holy snowfall Batman!  I wish we could get that where I'm at. 

As far as cleaning copper pipes and fittings i use red scotch brite pads. It works amazing. Clean the fitting then wipe the dust off with a rag and good to go.


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

Question about chimney roof flashing... I have a metal roof that I'll beer installing my Selkirk through and I have a universal adjustible roof flashing but I'll wondering if this can be used in the ribbed metal roofs?

Flashing:





Metal roof:





I would lap the top edge of the flashing with another sheet right? The flashing is going to ride in top of the ridges and make an awkward gap.

Any advice or better products?

Maybe something like this but larger?





@bholler


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

Bump for refresh.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 21, 2018)

Yeah that won't work out very well at all...I have seen rubber (silicone) ones that stick onto a metal roof, like your second one there...but I think I recall bholler and the other pros saying they don't like them. Someone posted about one version that is made to match the contour of the roof...I can't remember if those were preferred or not...guess I'm not much help...I'll see if I can find the discussion that I'm referring to...I think it was in the main stove forum.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 21, 2018)

Here is the thread...https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-to-woodstoves-doing-my-own-install.165226/#post-2217147


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

I actually have a local fireplace installer in town that I just stopped at and asked what they use. They said they have a dead soft flashing kit that can be formed to the ridges just like the boots. Unfortunately they want $127! Eek. I can get the silicon boot for $50.





There only 1-1.5' above the penetration to the side of the house so ice/snow  sliding into the chimney is low.


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## brenndatomu (Jan 21, 2018)

Marshy said:


> There only 1-1.5' above the penetration to the side of the house so ice/snow sliding into the chimney is low.


Boy, that close the the "top" of the roof I'd be temped to use the standard kit and just lay a second layer of the metal roof panel over top the chimney flashing right up to the wall


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Boy, that close the the "top" of the roof I'd be temped to use the standard kit and just lay a second layer of the metal roof panel over top the chimney flashing right up to the wall


I believe it would make it.  I also have some end wall flashing that will reach out 6" from the wall.  I was thinking I needed to lap it with another sheet but maybe not.  I'll look closer.


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

Damn, I'm a few inches short... but I just remembered I have a crap load of extra flat flashing. I can make a piece of end wall with as much reach from the wall as I want. I think I'm all set. Just a little nervous about cutting a hole in the roof and getting it all sealed. 


18" from the upper wall is the marking for the top of the hole which includes the 2" to combustible. 





And just setting the flashing here, guessing on location.


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

Thanks for the advice. Sometimes the answer is right in front of you and needs pointing out.


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## warno (Jan 21, 2018)

I built my own flashing for my boiler shed you could do what i did with that flashing in your picture. It would require a box and pan break to bend the edges though.

I bent the edges down on a piece of aluminum and welded the corners. Corners could be bolted, screwed, or use adhesive if bent right. Then i notched out around the ridges of the metal roofing. 

Here's mine. Heavy...duty!


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## Gasifier (Jan 21, 2018)

Nice work Marshy! How many square feet are you going to be heating with that nice boiler and tank? And how many BTU boiler is that?


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

warno said:


> I built my own flashing for my boiler shed you could do what i did with that flashing in your picture. It would require a box and pan break to bend the edges though.
> 
> I bent the edges down on a piece of aluminum and welded the corners. Corners could be bolted, screwed, or use adhesive if bent right. Then i notched out around the ridges of the metal roofing.
> 
> ...


That is some quality work there. I think I can guess what you do for a profession. Nice.



Gasifier said:


> Nice work Marshy! How many square feet are you going to be heating with that nice boiler and tank? And how many BTU boiler is that?



It's a 102,500 btu/hr boiler, Forling FHG 30. I have a ranch house, 1850 sqft main floor and a full basement, unfinished at this time.

Getting late but getting closer. Just want it water tight.


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

Here is without the flashing. I'm trying to get it all tucked into bed before the rain and snow come tomorrow. Been at it since lunch. Slow going. Once the flashing is on the remaining 12' will pop right on and get anchored to the 2x4 above and a couple more wall supports above. The cathedral brackets by Selkirk are rugged. I put 8' of pipe together and plumbed it then locked it in place so all the up front work is done.


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

If I haven't told you how much I hate cedar clap siding just ask.


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## Marshy (Jan 21, 2018)

Change of plans. Just gonna send it.


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## warno (Jan 22, 2018)

Yep, should be fine.


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## goosegunner (Jan 22, 2018)

I used that same boot you have. I used another piece of roof sheeting to overlap from under my ridge to the boot.


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## Marshy (Jan 22, 2018)

I have some notched end wall that I'll cut up to seal the low side of the brown flashing and the chimney flashing. I can bend some for the sides and seal it all then screw it together to keep bugs and stuff out. For now, as long as there is no rain or snow getting in I'll use it like it is (minus the duct tape on the chimney pipe). It's a flashing nightmare I'm general how the metal roof meets the house there.

We already have terrible lady bug infestations. I feel like I'm making them a new palace for next year.


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## nhtreehouse (Jan 24, 2018)

Metal roof manufactures make foam "inside closure" and "outside closure" strips to fill in the gaps. They are cheap - like a couple bucks for a 3' wide strip. I doubled up the strips when I put together the boilerhouse last year - we have critters here, and in a big way. Just a thought.


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## Marshy (Jan 24, 2018)

I have a question about my Selkirk chimney I just installed. I was wondering how does one maintain the 2" clearance to the chimney pipe to the insulation in the ceiling? My pipe has 2" or slightly more to the nearest joist or support blocks..?

I think I found the answer, please let me knowing I'm on on the right track.

I found Selkirk makes a firestop joist shield. Is that the right product?





Remember, I use the adjustible cathedral support to secure the chimney pipe.





The firestop joist shield installation instructions say the preferred method of installation is with the flat plate facing down (fig. 1A in below pic) and the cylindrical shield inserted up through. However, for pitched ceilings it says to construct a level frame above the ceiling joists and install it per fig. 3A.




Maybe they suggest this for aesthetics so thst way your framing isn't protruding out of the ceiling? Idk but, I cant frame it like they suggest because of the cathererial support. It makes more sense to me to frame it on the bottom side of the ceiling. Basically take Fig. 3A and invert it. And suggestions? Is this the right rock?


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## goosegunner (Jan 24, 2018)

There is a insulation collar that is nailed to the top of ceiling joists. It maintains proper clearance.

Here it is on amazon

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001RDP2I4/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## Marshy (Jan 24, 2018)

goosegunner said:


> There is a insulation collar that is nailed to the top of ceiling joists. It maintains proper clearance.
> 
> Here it is on amazon
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001RDP2I4/?tag=hearthamazon-20


I dont have room for something like that. The ceiling joists in my boiler room are the roof joists which are 2x6. I have R-21 unfaced insulation in the ceiling. I just need some way to trim out the chimney pipe through the insulation and sheetrock to maintain clearance. I also dont want to leave an air space so all the heat in the room room is lost through the gap.


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## Marshy (Jan 24, 2018)

I called tech support at Selkirk and she said I could install it like FIG 3A but upside down and that in my case the firestop isn't even a factor because the penetration exits to the outdoors. The firestop is meant prevent fire spreading between levels inside the structure. 

I'll just frame up a small level box and use the flame stop/joist sheild combo. Ill get a small flat plate of 20 gage or thicker and cut it to seal around the cylinder portion of the joist shield and install it under my 3/4" roof sheathing and the joist shield will fit up through it. 

I'll get pictures when I do it.


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2018)




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## maple1 (Jan 28, 2018)

Last one?


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Last one?


Your a funny guy. No! But I might be done today with copper, we'll see. I'm more nervous about draining my existing headers to install the check valve and tie into them. More so refilling the system after the connections are made and getting all the air vented and the mess from the water.


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2018)

Actually, I'm thinking about jumping up on the roof and hanging the remaining 12' of my chimney pipe while the weather is sunny and 40F. Thst way if I finish everything else and the weather is bad I can actually use it!


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## maple1 (Jan 28, 2018)

Summer's coming ya know - lol.

Mine drug on for months it seemed, and it was getting down to crunch time in October by the time I got my first fire lit. A bit hard on the nerves when the system is totally down and winter is breathing on you - cutting into an established system with big changes in January is another thing.


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## goosegunner (Jan 28, 2018)

Marshy said:


> Your a funny guy. No! But I might be done today with copper, we'll see. I'm more nervous about draining my existing headers to install the check valve and tie into them. More so refilling the system after the connections are made and getting all the air vented and the mess from the water.




Maybe put in some webstone purge valves to make refill easy.


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2018)

Its not too late, I will incorporate a few. I'm a few elbows short so I'll add them to the list and make an order through supply house again. I purchased a few elbows at the local home store so I'll buy enough to return those fittings. Thst will help me reach the $100 purchase and get free shipping.


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2018)

I'm trying to find something like this but have been unsuccessful. 






More chimney up, just need a brace near the top before I can walk away for today and go back to copper.


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## warno (Jan 28, 2018)

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Elkhart-59240-1-Cast-Brass-90-Elbow-w-Drain

Not sure what size you need for that elbow vent but here's a elbow with drain that could probably do the same. Maybe?

Or this with a vent in it

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Elkhart-51222-1-x-1-8-x-1-CxFxC-Baseboard-Tee-Lead-Free

Where's all that snow you had?


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## maple1 (Jan 28, 2018)

Would look kind of cobbled maybe but an ordinary T with iso valve then a vent?


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## Marshy (Jan 28, 2018)

The weather has been crazy mild for the second half of Jan. Some good rains and average temps in the low 40's has melted nearly all our snow. There's still maybe 4-5" of snow left as ground cover. Two and a half weeks ago it was waist deep. We are getting March weather in Jan! It could all change in the blink of an eye though so that's why I wanted to get the chimney functional.

Thanks for the fitting @warno, that's what I was looking for. I'll use two of the 1" brass elbows as high point vents in the emergency gravity feed loop. The rest of the system will be fine, the air scoopswill catch it, the elbow drains are just for initial filling.


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## Gasifier (Jan 30, 2018)

Chimney looks great Marshy


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## Marshy (Feb 3, 2018)

Thanks @Gasifier. I installed the joist shield today and got the insulation back up. I'm debating leaving it like this or making the whole ceiling flat up there... Only two more 2x4' and a few screws would make it flat. It would be easier to rock if I did make it flat.... I'll think about it, but I'm leaning towards flat.








Back to copper now that I eliminated the wind tunnel draft.


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## maple1 (Feb 3, 2018)

Rocking your boiler room? That's pretty high class stuff.


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## Marshy (Feb 3, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Rocking your boiler room? That's pretty high class stuff.


Haha, yeah the 5/8" rock is a 45 min fire barrier. More of a safety thing really.


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## Marshy (Feb 11, 2018)

I feel like this is getting drawn out now lol. I'm ready for this to be over. 

I can almost count the remaining solder joints with my fingers... and toes.

HTX is pipe tight. Only thing left on this side of the system is the gravity dump zone. It's ready to hang overhead. 





Other side of the wall looks like this. 
	

		
			
		

		
	





I'm about 5' short on copper tubing to finish it out. Still have 20 joints to do on this side (or a few more).


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## warno (Feb 11, 2018)

2 questions. I think one was answered already if so I  apologize.

What is the need for the opposing inline check valves and the swing check just down the line?

What is your heat exchanger from? Is it a home made unit?

Install looks good by the way.


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## nhtreehouse (Feb 12, 2018)

Marshy said:


> I feel like this is getting drawn out now lol. I'm ready for this to be over.
> 
> I can almost count the remaining solder joints with my fingers... and toes.



Boy do I ever know that feeling! Keep at it - believe me, it's way worth it in the end! I went with the "just get it operational, optimize later" approach. First fire for the Froling was 1/16/18, and I didn't have any insulation on the tank at the time. In fact, I was putting insulation on as the boiler was first charging the tank! Still taking care of little odds and ends, but having the boiler up and running is pretty awesome. Keep going!


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## Fred61 (Feb 12, 2018)

I see you have both swing checks and spring checks in the photo. Which ones do you have the most faith in?


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## Marshy (Feb 12, 2018)

warno said:


> 2 questions. I think one was answered already if so I  apologize.
> 
> What is the need for the opposing inline check valves and the swing check just down the line?
> 
> ...



It's all good. I am using an unpressurized thermal storage bank which has a drop in copper coil heat exchanger. It hangs in the side of my square tank. The reversed spring checks allow the system to add heat to the storage bank and remove it using the same htx. The flow is reversed to maximize the thermal differential. Heating the tank you want hot water to enter the htx at the surface of the tank where it is the warmest and travel to the bottom of the htx. When withdrawing heat the water enters from the bottom of the htx and travels upwards. 
When a house zonen calls for heat and the boiker is running it will satisfy the house load directly then go back to adding heat to the storage. All other times no fire in the boiler the house demand will use run through the heat bank. 
See pic attached. 



Fred61 said:


> I see you have both swing checks and spring checks in the photo. Which ones do you have the most faith in?


Probably the swing checks. 
Why do you say that? Please share your experience. 
Tram provided the plumbing schematic and calls for regular swing checks in some areas and weighted swing checks in others. I could not find a weighted swing check so I talked with then about using spring instead.


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## warno (Feb 12, 2018)

that's actually a good idea. Very nice.


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## Fred61 (Feb 13, 2018)

I asked about the check valves because I too have a mix but only a total of 4 consisting of 2 swing checks, 1 weighted check and one spring check.

Forgetting the weighted check because it has never had issues brings the discussion to the two swings and the one spring check. 
Over the years I have had three swing checks occasionally stick open and allow backflow. After freeing them up several times I opted to replace one of them with a spring check. I still periodically have trouble with the swing checks but have not had a problem with the spring check. 

I went by "seat of the pants" engineering when choosing the opening pressure. Been so long ago now I forget what I chose. I would need to check my file.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2018)

Fred61 said:


> I asked about the check valves because I too have a mix but only a total of 4 consisting of 2 swing checks, 1 weighted check and one spring check.
> 
> Forgetting the weighted check because it has never had issues brings the discussion to the two swings and the one spring check.
> Over the years I have had three swing checks occasionally stick open and allow backflow. After freeing them up several times I opted to replace one of them with a spring check. I still periodically have trouble with the swing checks but have not had a problem with the spring check.
> ...


I only have two swing checks in the system. Hopefully they are reliable and I never have replace them. I hope that's true for all of them for that matter. I may just add another union because of this conversation though.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Marshy said:


> It's all good. I am using an unpressurized thermal storage bank which has a drop in copper coil heat exchanger. It hangs in the side of my square tank. The reversed spring checks allow the system to add heat to the storage bank and remove it using the same htx. The flow is reversed to maximize the thermal differential. Heating the tank you want hot water to enter the htx at the surface of the tank where it is the warmest and travel to the bottom of the htx. When withdrawing heat the water enters from the bottom of the htx and travels upwards.
> When a house zonen calls for heat and the boiker is running it will satisfy the house load directly then go back to adding heat to the storage. All other times no fire in the boiler the house demand will use run through the heat bank.



I'm a but unfamiliar with this kind of setup, but can the system flow water both ways at the same time? I.e., when burning, can the boiler send water to both the house and storage? Or is it one or the other? Thinking both but the way you worded it sounded like one or the other - and I don't have the head space at the moment to try to figure it out for myself.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2018)

maple1 said:


> I'm a but unfamiliar with this kind of setup, but can the system flow water both ways at the same time? I.e., when burning, can the boiler send water to both the house and storage? Or is it one or the other? Thinking both but the way you worded it sounded like one or the other - and I don't have the head space at the moment to try to figure it out for myself.


One or the other only.  The boiler controls decide where to send hot water when the fire is burning and house demands take priority. Flow is controlled through zone valve ZV-1. When it's closed heat goes to storage.  When it's open it goes to house.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Hmm, OK. Interesting. You're on another level from me, with the Froling & how smart it is and how capable it can control things. Plus the different means & methods of the storage side. I know that if my boiler was sending all its output to the house on a call for heat, it would be heating up fairly quickly and idling if it could idle - it can make a lot more heat when it's burning than the house can distribute. 

Looking forward to seeing some performance reports.


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## Fred61 (Feb 13, 2018)

maple1 said:


> - it can make a lot more heat when it's burning than the house can distribute.



Same with mine. Never been a problem distributing from storage. When whole house is calling, storage temperature rises slowly during daily burn.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2018)

Your not getting the whole explination from what little I've shared. TV-2 Is a tempering valve and if the water returning from the zones is above 160-165F a flow returning from the zones is shunted back to circulator C1 to give up more heat to the zones. If C1 is directing all flow back to circulator C1 and the boiler is burning the boiler flow from C3 will be going to the htx as there is no flow path down stream of ZV1, just a circulating loop. Once the return water from the zones is below 160F TV-2 redirects the water back to get heated. When that happens the water from the boiler is directed to the zones because there is now a flow path that is completed. 

TV2 and TV1 are thermostatic valves. TV1 is min return protection to keep return water above 140F. Clear as mud?

The controls are set to provide priority to the zone any time they aree calling for deman. That does not mean all the boiler output is directed to the zone, just that it will receive it's heat from the boiler (while firing) and any additional flow not being consumed by the zone in demand will go to the tank similtaniously. That's my understanding.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Think I got you now - and maybe it can go both ways at the same time when burning, depending simply on how much diverting TV2 is doing while ZV1 is open & house is heating? 

Was also wondering after looking closer what prevents ghost flow through the boiler when it isn't burning - or maybe TV1 would prevent that?

Sounds like you have things well sorted.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Think I got you now - and maybe it can go both ways at the same time when burning, depending simply on how much diverting TV2 is doing while ZV1 is open & house is heating?
> 
> Was also wondering after looking closer what prevents ghost flow through the boiler when it isn't burning - or maybe TV1 would prevent that?
> 
> Sounds like you have things well sorted.


Yes, its possible the c3 flow out of the boiler is split between the tank and the zones if TV2 is in some intermediate position... 

Regarding the ghost flow through the boiler... I don't know how susceptible it is. I believe that is why they want a weighted check on the oil boiler outlet so there is some restriction to prevent flow through it.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Would likely be something to watch for once you're up & going. Mine would pull some flow through the cold boiler, sometimes, until I swapped my 15-58 load circ to an Alpha which runs slower flows. Which told me that my loading unit wasn't doing much to prevent that, but your TV1 might be more help than it is. I kind of also made things up as I went along, you're ahead of me there too.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2018)

I tried to build it as close to the print ad I could. There are some differences that I won't go into (for time sake) but I believe the system will operate as intended. Once operational I'll use my FLIR gun to verify no ghost flow. Worst case is I have to install another zone valve at the oil boiler inlet. The issue is the ones I looked at were only 1", none were 1.25" so it's a fairly good restriction. Maybe it's not a big deal idk.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2018)

Since I'm on the subject and have the floor so to speak....

I was going to have the C1 circulator discharge piping go to the opposite side of the expansion tank so that way the flow will pass through this air scoop also. I will move the check valve accordingly so it doesn't backflow into the oil boiler either. Thoughts?

See in purple.


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## BoiledOver (Feb 13, 2018)

Is their a reason for not using two coils in the tank? One for charging and one for heating demands.


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## Marshy (Feb 13, 2018)

BoiledOver said:


> Is their a reason for not using two coils in the tank? One for charging and one for heating demands.


There is no need for two.


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## Chris Hoskin (Feb 14, 2018)

Marshy said:


> Your not getting the whole explination from what little I've shared. TV-2 Is a tempering valve and if the water returning from the zones is above 160-165F a flow returning from the zones is shunted back to circulator C1 to give up more heat to the zones. If C1 is directing all flow back to circulator C1 and the boiler is burning the boiler flow from C3 will be going to the htx as there is no flow path down stream of ZV1, just a circulating loop. Once the return water from the zones is below 160F TV-2 redirects the water back to get heated. When that happens the water from the boiler is directed to the zones because there is now a flow path that is completed.
> 
> TV2 and TV1 are thermostatic valves. TV1 is min return protection to keep return water above 140F. Clear as mud?
> 
> The controls are set to provide priority to the zone any time they aree calling for deman. That does not mean all the boiler output is directed to the zone, just that it will receive it's heat from the boiler (while firing) and any additional flow not being consumed by the zone in demand will go to the tank similtaniously. That's my understanding.




Good description.


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## Chris Hoskin (Feb 14, 2018)

BoiledOver said:


> Is their a reason for not using two coils in the tank? One for charging and one for heating demands.



Two reasons: first, cost.  With one coil doing both input and output duty, you only have to buy one coil.  Copper ain't cheap.  Second, if you have one input coil and a separate output coil, you have to wait to have heat in the tank before you can get heat to the house.  The STSS-style drawing shared above allows you to send heat straight to the zones with only "extra" heat (that the house isn't using) going to the tank.  A two-coil system is probably simpler and the delay in getting heat to the zones is probably not a big deal if you have a low temp heating system ( a bigger deal if you have hot water baseboard and a standard indirect water heater).


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## Chris Hoskin (Feb 14, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Hmm, OK. Interesting. You're on another level from me, with the Froling & how smart it is and how capable it can control things. Plus the different means & methods of the storage side. I know that if my boiler was sending all its output to the house on a call for heat, it would be heating up fairly quickly and idling if it could idle - it can make a lot more heat when it's burning than the house can distribute.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing some performance reports.




The Fröling is a smart boiler to be sure, but this set up is not controlled by the wood boiler works with any boiler - this is a plumbing schematic we have used for 15+ years.  The key is the two thermostatic valves and our BLT Control controlling C1 circulator, ZV1 zone valve and the back-up boiler.


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## Chris Hoskin (Feb 14, 2018)

Marshy said:


> I feel like this is getting drawn out now lol. I'm ready for this to be over.
> 
> I can almost count the remaining solder joints with my fingers... and toes.
> 
> ...



Hi Marshy, is this picture showing pipe BEFORE it's been soldered?  Looks like you've got port one of TV2 plumbed into the left of C1?


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## BoiledOver (Feb 14, 2018)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Two reasons: first, cost.  With one coil doing both input and output duty, you only have to buy one coil.  Copper ain't cheap.  Second, if you have one input coil and a separate output coil, you have to wait to have heat in the tank before you can get heat to the house.  The STSS-style drawing shared above allows you to send heat straight to the zones with only "extra" heat (that the house isn't using) going to the tank.  A two-coil system is probably simpler and the delay in getting heat to the zones is probably not a big deal if you have a low temp heating system ( a bigger deal if you have hot water baseboard and a standard indirect water heater).


Thank you for addressing my question. Obviously this is a proven system design or you wouldn't suggest it. To my simple mind I would think the cost difference to pretty much a wash, just a guess at this point. In the posted images there are quite a few components that could be eliminated with a two coil setup, components that may need service or replacement at some point. Wishings of success to the new boiler operator.


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## Marshy (Feb 14, 2018)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Hi Marshy, is this picture showing pipe BEFORE it's been soldered?  Looks like you've got port one of TV2 plumbed into the left of C1?


I will double check this evening but I followed the directions that came in the box with the valve. The numbers on the piping schematic don't align with the directions in the box (1, 2, 3). I'll  review and post how it's installed. Rather find out now then after it's full of water.


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## Marshy (Feb 14, 2018)

The red numbers hand written match the cat numbers in the valve body and the instructions with the valve. The #1 port from TV2 goes to the suction side of C1 pump.






Maybe the recirc line I plumbed at the outlet of C1 pump is confusing you? This acts as the cross the between the two headers.

This is a more accurate illustration on how I intend to plumb it.
Also recall thst my individual zones do not have zone valves and my pumps are on the cold return side of the zone pumping into the boiler inlet.





The only thing I believe I should add is a valve in the recirc line to throttle the flow so it's not bypassing the zones.


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## Chris Hoskin (Feb 14, 2018)

thanks for the phone call, Marshy, I understand what is going on there now.  As I mentioned, my problem was that I thought flow was in the opposite direction of what it really is!  All's well, sorry for the false alarm!  Chris


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## Marshy (Feb 25, 2018)

So close I can feel the heat. All copper is done with the exception of hanging the emergency gravity dump zone which is like two or three fittings and 2 ft of 1" tubing. 

The two systems are connected and I'm back on the oil for now. Here's the last of the connections.


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## Marshy (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm about to plumb my gravity dump zone but I have a question... I plan to install this horizontally, hanging from my floor joists and the far most end of the zone will be the highest (pitched for gravity). Do you agree that the incoming hot water should go to the top of the highest part of the zone before passing through the emitters? (Ignore the mess)


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## Fred61 (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm no expert on this but what you have there seems more complicated than it needs to be. At least to me. Think of what you are trying to do here. You want the boiler water to circulate by gravity and dissipate heat with the help of the fins. It must cool somewhat  as it travels in order to return by gravity to complete the cycle.

I would eliminate that bypass pipe, hook the hot side to the low end of the fin tube and return to the boiler from the low end of the fin tube on the right.I would decouple the center fin tube from the fin tube on the left.  That will give you one low friction loop which should do the job. Feeding the top may seem like the right thing to do since that would be the way to connect a water tank but in this case you don't have that reservoir of cold water on the bottom. I assume you're installing the NO valve on the hot side.

Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.


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## Marshy (Mar 4, 2018)

Per the plans provided by TARM, the automog valve goes in the hot side of the zone so it will be moved accordingly. The valve open on loss of power.





@Fred61, I don't quite understand what you are calling the bypass pipe. It's just three emitters plumbed in parallel.

This dump zone came assembled by the previous owner of the AST tank that I bought. It doesn't seem overly complicated to me. Hot water needs to travel from one end of the emitter to the other. I'm just wondering if the water should be traveling through the emitter as it travels to the highest part of the zone or on the down hill side... maybe it doesn't matter?

My idea was to mount it perpendicular to the joist over head.


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## maple1 (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm not really sure but I'm not so sure it needs to have or should have slope to it? I'm thinking most of the drive would come from the verticals coming and going. If possible I would try to go straight up to it, and straight down from it, with what's in between being level. But not really sure. I would also like to see bigger piping on the ups and downs. Or I guess between the boiler and the two headers.


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## Marshy (Mar 4, 2018)

They call for 1" so that's what I used.


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## nhtreehouse (Mar 5, 2018)

Hey Marshy,

1" is better than 3/4", as you are relying on gravity to do the circulation, so reducing the piping resistance is always a good thing. I too have my NO zone vale on the hot side. As maple1 correctly points out, you don't NEED slope to it, as gravity circulation will do the work. But you do need to think about how air will get out of that loop - remember there isn't a circ to temporarily jam on high to purge the air out of the loop. I shamelessly copied goosegunner's design you can see here. I have a 1" baseboard tee with a B+G #97 can vent on the hot side of the dump zone loop. And a purge valve as goose has as well.

I pitched all my piping so the high point is at the air vent and thus it self-purges. Hot on the left, cold on the right in this pic. 1" supply and return and standard slant/fin 3/4" BB. Hard to see, but my return is clamped to the underside of the superstrut, while the BB is on top. That should give you an idea of the pitch which I built into it. I piped reverse return as yours is as well.


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## nhtreehouse (Mar 5, 2018)

And technically speaking, the hottest water should be at the highest elevation - so as the water sheds heat on its way down the baseboard element, it's density increases and helps the circulation. If the baseboard element is hung flat, this should work. If you pitch it up, so the cooling water has to travel uphill by gravity circulation, well, as they say, your mileage will vary. FWIW, I've tested mine (never in anger) and it works the champ.


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## Chris Hoskin (Mar 5, 2018)

Hi Marshy,  a little bit of upward pitch (hot coming into the low side) is desirable, but dead level would be OK too.  

As you say, the pipes are plumbed in parallel.  This will offer much less flow resistance than a series set up.  This is important because the thermosiphon is a pretty gentle force and we want to make the flow path as easy as possible.  

This does not look like a lot of radiation for a gravity dump zone.  Be sure to test it once the install is finished.

looking good!

Chris


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## nhtreehouse (Mar 5, 2018)

Better pic of goose's setup: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/wood-boiler-power-outage-protection.162694/page-2#post-2195932


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## Marshy (Mar 5, 2018)

I think that dump zone is going into the scrap pile. The elements only have 1/2" tube and there is only about 18' of element on it. It shoukd have 20' and be 3/4 or 1". I'll salvage the 1" pipe off it and make the proper dump zone.


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## Fred61 (Mar 6, 2018)

Where in NY are you? If not too far from me I could supply you with about 50 or more feet of fin tube for free, I have about 100 feet available but I have promised about 50 feet to another guy. I'm in Springfield which is on the Connecticut River.


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## Marshy (Mar 6, 2018)

Fred61 said:


> Where in NY are you? If not too far from me I could supply you with about 50 or more feet of fin tube for free, I have about 100 feet available but I have promised about 50 feet to another guy. I'm in Springfield which is on the Connecticut River.


I'm in central NY near Syracuse. I drive through Springfield every two weeks on my way to West Hartford. My next trip will be 3/16. Thanks for the offer, let me think it over. @nhtreehouse graciously offered a few feet of element also. I have plenty of wiring to do as well as put my tank liner in to keep me busy. I could push off the DZ and take advantage of your guys offers. I'll be in touch, thanks again.


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## Fred61 (Mar 6, 2018)

Concerned that you may be thinking of the wrong Springfield. If you're going to Hartford you're probably taking the Mass Pike, the only highway that actually goes east and west in New England. You're probably going through Springfield* Mass.* Springfield *Vermont* is about an hour north on I-91. So it's a little out of the way for you.


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## Marshy (Mar 7, 2018)

Fred61 said:


> Concerned that you may be thinking of the wrong Springfield. If you're going to Hartford you're probably taking the Mass Pike, the only highway that actually goes east and west in New England. You're probably going through Springfield* Mass.* Springfield *Vermont* is about an hour north on I-91. So it's a little out of the way for you.


Yes I was. Thanks for the clarification and for the offer but its too far.


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## Marshy (Mar 11, 2018)

Man, I can't believe how flimsy the junction box on these Grundfos pumps are. All plastic housing and cover is held on with onlay 2 screws.





BLT controller is going in next to my Argo relay panel and right under my circulator.


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## warno (Mar 11, 2018)

I have to agree on the grundfos connections. I was pretty disappointed to see that when my B&G pump has screw terminals. 

Your system is coming together nicely. Keep up the good work.


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## Marshy (Mar 11, 2018)

I'll get there, hopefully before summer.


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## goosegunner (Mar 11, 2018)

Might want to check your grunfos instructions but I believe you should turn the motor 90 degrees to the right.


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## Marshy (Mar 11, 2018)

goosegunner said:


> Might want to check your grunfos instructions but I believe you should turn the motor 90 degrees to the right.


It meets the requirements. Shaft is horizontal and the terminal box conduit entry is facing down (and pumping I'm the correct direction!). Thanks for questioning it though.


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## Marshy (Mar 11, 2018)

Tank sensors are in.
Lower:





Upper:





I'm trying to figure out where I should put the aqua stat for the BLT controller. This is the 4008A (opens on rise) to tell the controls the storage tank is too cold and to use the backup boiler. I was thinking I would place it at the same level as the upper sensor (to the boiler, right), about 4" from the top of the tank. That is about the same level at which the last upper coil for the heat exchanger is at (elevation wise). @Chris Hoskin, thoughts on placement?


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## Marshy (Mar 13, 2018)

Well, the project is going to take another small delay. I ordered a new liner for my AST tank. I bought the tank system second hand and the previous owner let water sit in the tank for some amount of time resulting in the liner becoming stained green and black. It smells musty and moldy and I do not want to take a chance on the potential consequence of having it in my living space. I coulkd try cleaning it up but it's a large undertaking trying to clean and dry it. I spoke with Tom and got a new liner on order. He more material on order and it will be a week or more before he receives it.

I will take this time to finish the heat dump zone, wiring, sheet rock in the boiler room and some power wiring. Maybe come April I'll be burning. 

I spoke with him about the sensor location and he advised I put them about 12" from the top. I'll move those lower and also get the lower sensor down too.


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## Marshy (Apr 1, 2018)

So close! Emergency heat dump is hung, just need a 1" 90 degree street elbow to finish the cold return. I'm down to two joints left to solder. Once I'm done with the torch the liner goes in and I start adding water to the tank. I feel like it's the home stretch. Just a few more wires to connect and i should be able to operate it. 


Dump zone has 40' of emitters! Some came from the guy I bought the AST tank from, some came from @nhtreehouse, and I also bought 16'.


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## Marshy (Apr 8, 2018)

Water is flowing and will be filled tonight.






The plumbing was pressure tested with air and is tight. I'm finishing up some wiring to the BLT controller and the boiler pump behind the tank then should be able to fill the boiler water jacket.

The well is taking it like a champ. Plenty of water in the ground this time of year. Mighty tasty too.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 9, 2018)




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## Marshy (Apr 11, 2018)

Just a little tease.


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## maple1 (Apr 12, 2018)

I think this is the longest tease I've seen on here - been a long winter, lol.


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## Marshy (Apr 12, 2018)

maple1 said:


> I think this is the longest tease I've seen on here - been a long winter, lol.


Absolute truth.


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## Fred61 (Apr 12, 2018)

Going to be difficult to access the performance 'till next winter. Another long waiting period.


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## Marshy (Apr 12, 2018)

I only have about 1/2 to 3/4 a cord of dry wood right now. Going to be burning lots of ash this coming winter. 

I'll post some learnings thst I had about the BLT controller. It may benefit @jpelizza with his storage tank hes trying to install.


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## Bad LP (Apr 12, 2018)

Why did you choose to use the BLT controller?


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## Marshy (Apr 12, 2018)

Bad LP said:


> Why did you choose to use the BLT controller?


Two main reasons;
1) Its a seamless way to integrate the wood boiler/storage bank system and the existing oil boiler with the ability to put the wood boiler in lead with automatic transfer to the oil boiler for backup.
2) I purchased the wood boiler through Tarm and I'm not capable of building a control scheme by myself. Their product is tried and true and has instructions and is built to be used generically with any kind of source for a backup.

The Froling boiler does not have the ability to provide the BLT function. Maybe in the future they will but not this model.

Now if theres some sort of emergency and I cannot get home to load/fire the boiler the house will stay warm with the oil as backup when the storage tankndroos below a certain temperature that I can set.


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## Highbeam (Apr 12, 2018)

Marshy said:


> Two main reasons;
> 1) Its a seamless way to integrate the wood boiler/storage bank system and the existing oil boiler with the ability to put the wood boiler in lead with automatic transfer to the oil boiler for backup.
> 2) I purchased the wood boiler through Tarm and I'm not capable of building a control scheme by myself. Their product is tried and true and has instructions and is built to be used generically with any kind of source for a backup.
> 
> ...



Plus BLT makes everyone think about a bacon sandwich and that makes us happy.


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## Marshy (Apr 30, 2018)

Bacon is cooking.


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## Marshy (Apr 30, 2018)

My lower tank sensor is still reading 50F and the upper is 163F last I check about 20 mins ago. I put a little more wood in the boiler to finish charging and run for the night. Anyone have advice on what I should do about the sensor? Hard to believe 50F is accurate. For that matter, I hope it's not the top one that's faulty and I have top and bottom swapped.

@Chris Hoskin, can I take a resistance reading on the temp probe and determine if it's good?


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## jebatty (May 1, 2018)

If those were the sensors on my 1000F pressurized horizontal storage tank, and I just filled the tank with 50F well water, and then started the boiler, that bottom sensor would stay at 50Ffor a long time as the hot temperature level gradually moved down the tank. So, you just may have excellent stratification which is desirable in most situations. Adding a middle of tank sensor would show the stratification more clearly, as it would start to rise while the bottom stayed at 50F. In fact, unless you have mixing occurring in the tank, I am not surprised to see top of tank at that much higher temperature while bottom of tank still remained at 50F.


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## maple1 (May 1, 2018)

Do you have any more temp readings? Like boiler in & out? Have an IR gun or other thermometer with probe/sensor you can get some pipe temps with? Pipe temp coming out of storage back to boiler return should tell a tale. I would think it would rise pretty gradually as the stratification layer falls. 

Also you should be able to rough in an approximate time to charge your storage based on wood load and/or burn time. It will take a fair amount of burn to charge things all up from all cold, and stratification like that is likely what you should see until the tank gets fairly full of BTUs - although I don't have a coil setup so no direct experience watching one of those charge up. It might take a while for bottom temp to rise and that cold slug at the bottom to get mixed in - vs. a pressurized direct hook up pulling that slug right into the boiler. How close to the bottom sensor location is the bottom of your coil? How far off the bottom is the bottom of the coil? Vertical separation, that is.


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## Marshy (May 1, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Do you have any more temp readings? Like boiler in & out? Have an IR gun or other thermometer with probe/sensor you can get some pipe temps with? Pipe temp coming out of storage back to boiler return should tell a tale. I would think it would rise pretty gradually as the stratification layer falls.
> 
> Also you should be able to rough in an approximate time to charge your storage based on wood load and/or burn time. It will take a fair amount of burn to charge things all up from all cold, and stratification like that is likely what you should see until the tank gets fairly full of BTUs - although I don't have a coil setup so no direct experience watching one of those charge up. It might take a while for bottom temp to rise and that cold slug at the bottom to get mixed in - vs. a pressurized direct hook up pulling that slug right into the boiler. How close to the bottom sensor location is the bottom of your coil? How far off the bottom is the bottom of the coil? Vertical separation, that is.


Great insight, I wish I knew the dimensions for the coil relative to the tank like you are askin. I know one thing for sure, I filled the tank with water then realized I should have lengthened the pipe so the boiler would sit lower in the tank. There is about 1/2 of a coil sticking out of the water line, so about 3" vertical above water line. There was no way to remove the coil without getting in the water unfortunately.

The sensor appears to be fine, its reading and I can see I underestimated the amount of time it takes to get that stratification layer to sink. Maybe I should put the pump on medium speed?

 The last picture I posted was with the boiler only into the first 3 or so hours of the very first burn. I had my wife do a hot reload last night before she went to bed and she loaded it up to the bottom of the loading door to get the tank close to fully charged. Here is is this AM.


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## Chris Hoskin (May 1, 2018)

Marshy said:


> Great insight, I wish I knew the dimensions for the coil relative to the tank like you are askin. I know one thing for sure, I filled the tank with water then realized I should have lengthened the pipe so the boiler would sit lower in the tank. There is about 1/2 of a coil sticking out of the water line, so about 3" vertical above water line. There was no way to remove the coil without getting in the water unfortunately.
> 
> The sensor appears to be fine, its reading and I can see I underestimated the amount of time it takes to get that stratification layer to sink. Maybe I should put the pump on medium speed?
> 
> ...



Excellent.  Those coil-type tanks set up a very, very sharp thermocline because there is no stirring of the tank from flow.  You might find a couple of more mid-tank sensors eventually.


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## Bad LP (May 1, 2018)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Excellent.  Those coil-type tanks set up a very, very sharp thermocline because there is no stirring of the tank from flow.  You might find a couple of more mid-tank sensors eventually.



So would that imply that there are not as many stored BTU's waiting to be released?


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## Marshy (May 2, 2018)

Next time I fire the boiler I'll run the boiler side circulator on high speed and see what happens. I'm cerious if I can get the lower half of the tank closer to 100F while keeping the upper half less than the maximum tank liner temp.


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## jebatty (May 2, 2018)

I have no experience with an open system and maximum temperature limit for an open system tank liner. I would think, however, that if the system is being actively used, hot water from top of tank to emitters and return water to bottom of tank, the tank will mix sufficiently to avoid the maximum temperature limit. Your immediate issue may be related to low use of your system. On the other hand, If during normal use sufficient mixing does not occur, then you may have to reduce your boiler firing as needed to limit top of tank high temperature. An alternative possibility would be installing a circulation pump for the tank to provide the needed mixing and reduce top of tank temperature. Other strategies may exist.


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## Marshy (May 2, 2018)

jebatty said:


> I have no experience with an open system and maximum temperature limit for an open system tank liner. I would think, however, that if the system is being actively used, hot water from top of tank to emitters and return water to bottom of tank, the tank will mix sufficiently to avoid the maximum temperature limit. Your immediate issue may be related to low use of your system. On the other hand, If during normal use sufficient mixing does not occur, then you may have to reduce your boiler firing as needed to limit top of tank high temperature. An alternative possibility would be installing a circulation pump for the tank to provide the needed mixing and reduce top of tank temperature. Other strategies may exist.


I have a lot to learn about these unpressurized tank systems but from what I understand stratification is is desirable and because the water in the tank does not circulate they stratify well. I believe when there's is high demand the tank will not be stratified as much because the return water from my zones could be as high as 165 (max). Because the returning water enters the coil at the bottom of it the lower part of the tank will heat up to normalize ... I've seen this already.

First and only fire was 4/30. Her was the tank temps morning of 5/1.





Here is the tank temps this AM.




The returning water from the zones are heating the lower half of the tank when it was cold. I think once the system gets operated enough the lower temp will probably follow the returning water temps closely. A temp sensor on the inlet of the htx would tell the full story.


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## Marshy (May 2, 2018)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Excellent.  Those coil-type tanks set up a very, very sharp thermocline because there is no stirring of the tank from flow.  You might find a couple of more mid-tank sensors eventually.


If I ever drain the tank I certainly will add some. I'll also lower the coil into the tank another 4". Until then I'll probably consider adding temp probes on the htx inlet and outlet.


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## Chris Hoskin (May 2, 2018)

Bad LP said:


> So would that imply that there are not as many stored BTU's waiting to be released?


No, better stratification means MORE btu's available.   The higher the highest temp in the tank, the more btu you can extract from the tank.  For example, lets say you have a tank that is well mixed and 140F top to bottom and a different tank that is 160F at the top and 120F at the bottom.  Even though both tanks might have the same number of btu stored, the tank with 160F at the top can DELIVER more heat to the building.   In this example I am assuming hot water baseboard or hydro-air and a traditional indirect water heater - if the house is all radiant floor, for example, there is probably no practical difference in the two tanks ability to heat in this example.


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## maple1 (May 2, 2018)

Marshy said:


> If I ever drain the tank I certainly will add some. I'll also lower the coil into the tank another 4". Until then I'll probably consider adding temp probes on the htx inlet and outlet.



I am thinking there would be a catch-22 with coil location? Like, if you lower it you might pull more BTUs out of the coil when charging - but flip side would be you wouldn't have as much of the hottest water at the top available to the coil? Might be a negligible thing....


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## TCaldwell (May 2, 2018)

Not disagreeing with the above but why not mix the tank when firing and bring it all up to one temp, then allow the cooler return to create the stratification.


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## Marshy (May 2, 2018)

maple1 said:


> I am thinking there would be a catch-22 with coil location? Like, if you lower it you might pull more BTUs out of the coil when charging - but flip side would be you wouldn't have as much of the hottest water at the top available to the coil? Might be a negligible thing....


I wouldn't lower it far, right now there is about half of a coil above the water line. That equates to about 3" vertical height above the water line at the top of the coil. The lost BTU's from that being above the water line is likely more significant that if the coils was already fully submerged and just was lowering an additional 3"... Not a huge deal in either case as explained by Tom from AST. I just didn't realize it wasn't going to be fully submerged until the tank was 1/4 to 1/2 full. All that copper work I did, it wouldn't have been anything to lower it had I know before hand.



TCaldwell said:


> Not disagreeing with the above but why not mix the tank when firing and bring it all up to one temp, then allow the cooler return to create the stratification.


The stratification of the tank is important for overall heat transfer reasons. The heated water enters the coil at the top of the tank and travels towards the bottom. The stratified tank ensures a high delta T for the best BTU transfer rate across the whole coil. If the whole tank is nearly the same temp the heat transfer rate will be poor at the bottom and reduce the overall heat added.

That's my understanding and "in a nut shell" explanation. Anyone feel free to chime in.


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## Marshy (May 3, 2018)




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## Marshy (May 4, 2018)




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## brenndatomu (May 4, 2018)

Marshy said:


> View attachment 226434


Just in time to start up the AC....
If you can figure out how to make that read about 30*F, you'll have a good start on a whole house swamp cooler


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## Marshy (May 5, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> Just in time to start up the AC....
> If you can figure out how to make that read about 30*F, you'll have a good start on a whole house swamp cooler


Time for a hot tub!


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## TCaldwell (May 6, 2018)

your right, with a independent storage tank, guess I was thinking about a Garn .


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## Marshy (May 9, 2018)

@Chris Hoskin, I wanted to ask you a few questions about this partucular boiler. 

Does the boiler know how many gallons the storage tank is? 

If it isn't programmed with the number of gallons the storage tank is then how can it accurately predict how much wood to load based solely on the temperature probes? 

I dont see anywhere in the manual which has you program the size of the storage...

There is a modem plug on in the control box. Is there any user interface to be able to hook a computer to it and monitor the status through a computer network? 

Theres one more I'll write when I get home and can toggle through the controls...

Thanks!


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## maple1 (May 9, 2018)

*If it isn't programmed with the number of gallons the storage tank is then how can it accurately predict how much wood to load based solely on the temperature probes? *

Wait now - you mean the Froling tells you how much wood to put in?


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## Chris Hoskin (May 9, 2018)

Marshy said:


> @Chris Hoskin, I wanted to ask you a few questions about this partucular boiler.
> 
> Does the boiler know how many gallons the storage tank is?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Marsh,

Correct, you need to tell the boiler how many gallons (liters) of thermal storage you are using for it to be able to suggest how much wood to load.  In Service mode go to the Buffer Tank One menu.  Scroll down to Service and select it.  Scroll down to Refill Calculation Active and select Yes.  Then scroll down to Volume of Buffer Tank and enter the volume.   

Yes, you can plug a laptop into the boiler for monitoring and data logging using Fröling's Visualization software (free from us).  Give Travis a call here to have him walk you through the set up.  Alternately, you could purchase a touch screen display which you could mount on or near the boiler.  This has an ethernet port so you can just connect to your home router and use a browser to monitor the boiler from anywhere.  This option, however, does not have the data logging functionality.


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## BoiledOver (May 9, 2018)

maple1 said:


> *If it isn't programmed with the number of gallons the storage tank is then how can it accurately predict how much wood to load based solely on the temperature probes? *
> 
> Wait now - you mean the Froling tells you how much wood to put in?


Sounds like it can make a guess but there are some variables that would require input. Total volume, shape of the vessel, wood moisture content and at least 3 sensors in storage to get close. More sensors would get better accuracy. I suppose the shape of the vessel wouldn't be so much important as the volume represented for each individual sensor reading. Interesting stuff, I had no idea anyone was doing it already. But, it is simply math and so easy for the controller to accomplish.


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## Marshy (May 9, 2018)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Hi Marsh,
> 
> Correct, you need to tell the boiler how many gallons (liters) of thermal storage you are using for it to be able to suggest how much wood to load.  In Service mode go to the Buffer Tank One menu.  Scroll down to Service and select it.  Scroll down to Refill Calculation Active and select Yes.  Then scroll down to Volume of Buffer Tank and enter the volume.
> 
> Yes, you can plug a laptop into the boiler for monitoring and data logging using Fröling's Visualization software (free from us).  Give Travis a call here to have him walk you through the set up.  Alternately, you could purchase a touch screen display which you could mount on or near the boiler.  This has an ethernet port so you can just connect to your home router and use a browser to monitor the boiler from anywhere.  This option, however, does not have the data logging functionality.


SWEET! I'll be in touch. I know it would not allow me to access some of those functions possibly because the user rights are set for customer..? I'll call and get it figured out with you or Travis. Even the display would be nice. I'm not a huge computer geek so the data logging isn't much of a priority but its something I'd like to learn later.



maple1 said:


> *If it isn't programmed with the number of gallons the storage tank is then how can it accurately predict how much wood to load based solely on the temperature probes? *
> 
> Wait now - you mean the Froling tells you how much wood to put in?


The boiler has the ability to determine the heat capacity of storage tank and estimate how much wood to load into the firebox to fill it back up.


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## Dc31 (Jul 31, 2018)

jebatty said:


> For the Froling display, I had the sheet metal cover, found a box that it would fit, cut out the openings for the meters, painted the cover red to match the Froling, and then used stick-on lettering.
> 
> Data recording can be useful, especially to spot and diagnose any anomaly. I also use DS18b20 sensors to do this. My latest foray into temperature data recording is with a Raspberry Pi computer running a Python program. I did the programming myself, using available programs in Python and then modifying them to do what I wanted. The RPi can handle multiple sensors and with the Python program can be customized and is very flexible. I am hoping this winter, when I have more spare time, to add programming for control (off-on) of devices, like circulators, valves, fans, etc.



Interesting...  I only bumped into this thread today and read bunches of it but not thoroughly.  I installed a Froling FHG in 2012 so now have six winters under my belt with it.  No issues or complaints.  Mine is in a detached garage so I wanted a remote indication of temperatures.  I was introduced to the Raspberry Pi through another project and soon had one mounted in the boiler room with nine DS18B20 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EU70ZL8/?tag=hearthamazon-20) sensors giving me boiler temp, supply/return temps, top/bottom temps, outdoor temp, etc.  I found a neat little program called gspread that uploads the data to a google sheet.  Now I can access the data from anywhere that I have an internet connection.  Subsequent iterations of Raspbian (the RPi operating system) included another program called Node-Red (www.nodered.org).  One of the nodes available for use in node-red reads temperatures from DS18B20 sensors. This opens the way to displaying and controlling just about anything imaginable.  I use a pi to monitor temperatures in the DHW tank and control the DHW circulator as well as the main circulator.  Both the boiler pi and the DHW pi are set up to email me and to send push notifications when something needs my attention.  Once you get the data into Google Sheets the graphing is relatively simple.  The Node-Red dashboard also has charting capabilities.


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## jebatty (Aug 2, 2018)

I didn't spend any time on the RPi this last winter, nor did I any active temp data monitoring. The Tarm/storage system in my shop is quite simple, works exceptionally well, and with all of my past monitoring, continuing with monitoring isn't necessary. Plus, the display panel I made visually shows the temp points which are important to know in operating the Tarm through a burn cycle(s). 

Node-Red looks very interesting, and exploring its capabilities may be something I will pursue. Thanks for this great info.


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## Dc31 (Aug 3, 2018)

jebatty said:


> I didn't spend any time on the RPi this last winter, nor did I any active temp data monitoring. The Tarm/storage system in my shop is quite simple, works exceptionally well, and with all of my past monitoring, continuing with monitoring isn't necessary. Plus, the display panel I made visually shows the temp points which are important to know in operating the Tarm through a burn cycle(s).
> 
> Node-Red looks very interesting, and exploring its capabilities may be something I will pursue. Thanks for this great info.



One inaccuracy in my post above.  The CURRENT release of the Raspbian OS does not include Node-red.  It is easily installed through “Add programs” under “RPi configuration”.  You will want Node-red and Npm (node package manager.)  Good luck!


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