# Buy American



## Huntindog1 (Mar 1, 2014)

Is now officially changed to hire Americans in America.

Fortune 500 companies are now playing with the natural supply and demand of the American work force by going to other countries and bringing in  professionals.

The way its supposed to work is companies in towns and cities across this great land should provide good jobs to young graduates of our great universities in the USA. Local kids heading off to college should not be displaced by the Companies bringing in thousands of professionals from other countries.

While we were all focused on buying American made goods no one even noticed these Companies taking this stuff to a whole new level. Who would have thought Americans running these companies would do such a thing to young professionals.

As if you flood the market of available workers with workers from other countries you can keep wages low. If the demand for your skills are in high demand wages should rise for your field of work.

Add to this you got kids going to college and getting $80k degrees not knowing whats going on.

Now here is a very important thing to take note of that even takes this too a whole new level higher than I stated above. Because of flooding the market with all these added professionals. What these companies are doing is if you go to school for like a MET or an EET Engineeering degree you are being directed to Technician Jobs. These companies are telling kids who went out and got these 4 year Bachelors Degrees they are only qualified for jobs that used to be done by 2 year associate degrees. There is no way these kids can pay off $80k engineering degrees making technician wages. This would not be possible except the huge ingress of workers from other countries artificially altering the work force supply and demand. Companies are making this happen, its not happening on its own.

Plus just think what this does to all the kids going to school getting 2 year Associates degree are now finding they cant compete with companies hiring engineers instead.

They say student loan debt is the next big financial collapse thats going to happen and Corporate America is just making it happen faster.

I guess we all know greed rules the world.


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## GENECOP (Mar 1, 2014)

Yup it's unfortunate.....most everyone just wants MORE.....nothing is ever enough....if everyone could just be happy with life, they would not be looking for THINGS to make them feel whole or complete...GREED as you said, it's Fu..ing up things pretty good.


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## Treacherous (Mar 1, 2014)

I am not going to say I don't buy any foreign goods but if I see a domestic product that is comparable to a foreign option and quality is good I will buy it.  I am open to paying more as well.  I'd pay twice as much if I knew it would last a long time.


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## smokedragon (Mar 1, 2014)

Well the real issue is when you look at how many student H1B visa's are issued each year.  The college nearest me, 70% of those in MS and PhD programs in engineering are H1B visa.  The colleges say that it is because American students don't want to go to graduate school.  Same way American workers don't want to do this job or that in blue collar work.  

Many things lead to this (including the fact that it is easier now than ever before to get a check).........

At some point, it has got to stop.  Look at the rules for entering Canada, Ireland, or Australia to work.  Most of these countries require massive documentation, an offer letter from the company (with a 1 year commitment contract in writing) and you must have 3 - 12 months in savings to pay all living expenses.  Oh well......


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## Huntindog1 (Mar 2, 2014)

Treacherous said:


> I am not going to say I don't buy any foreign goods but if I see a domestic product that is comparable to a foreign option and quality is good I will buy it.  I am open to paying more as well.  I'd pay twice as much if I knew it would last a long time.



Thanks for your post , exactly we are still so focused on buy american this post doesnt even get noticed for what it is , Its now to an all new realm of seriousness, "Hire American". If you have kids take heed. If you just signed up at a major University for your kid to get an Engineering degree. Take note. There are 330 million in the USA and  now your kid is competing with the 3.3 billion over in China, India and Bangladesh areas.  They are not competing with the kid next door. Valedictorian at your local High School really has no meaning anymore. As your only were competing with your local senior class.


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## Huntindog1 (Mar 2, 2014)

smokedragon said:


> Well the real issue is when you look at how many student H1B visa's are issued each year.  The college nearest me, 70% of those in MS and PhD programs in engineering are H1B visa.  The colleges say that it is because American students don't want to go to graduate school.  Same way American workers don't want to do this job or that in blue collar work.
> 
> Many things lead to this (including the fact that it is easier now than ever before to get a check).........
> 
> At some point, it has got to stop.  Look at the rules for entering Canada, Ireland, or Australia to work.  Most of these countries require massive documentation, an offer letter from the company (with a 1 year commitment contract in writing) and you must have 3 - 12 months in savings to pay all living expenses.  Oh well......



I think one aspect is kids are trying to get  the jobs first then having the company they work for pay the cost of getting Masters.  This may be shifting the data reported. Cost of Graduate school is much much higher than just getting a bachelors degree.


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## woodgeek (Mar 2, 2014)

Ah well.  

Unemployment for folks with STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Math) PhDs in the US runs about 2%, might have topped out at 3% during the peak of the Great Recession.  Average pay in Engineering is >$100k/yr for PhDs. 

Seems that there is a shortage of them....

US universities **pay students** $20-30k/year to get a PhD in STEM fields.  Any college loans you have while you are in graduate school get rolled forward **interest free** for the duration (courtesy of the Feds). Sweet deal.  Still can't fill the seats with US kids, so half the folks getting those paid-for STEM PhDs are foreign-born.

I guess all our smart kids want to be lawyers and doctors, and pay for their degrees.


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## smokedragon (Mar 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> US universities **pay students** $20-30k/year to get a PhD in STEM fields. Any college loans you have while you are in graduate school get rolled forward **interest free** for the duration (courtesy of the Feds). Sweet deal. Still can't fill the seats with US kids, so half the folks getting those paid-for STEM PhDs are foreign-born.



This depends on the zipcode.  I am not sure where you got your info, but I looked at grad school in NC, SC, and VA.  When I got my MS in Mechanical Engineering, it paid 13,800 pretax.  Some schools offered a little higher per year, but not much.  I had a job offer in hand for 52k with my BS degree.  It is hard for a young man from a poor family to turn that down and work for under 14k.  My brother had the same experience when he got his MS in Electrical Engineering.  

The enticement of a full-time job with good pay is part of the reason that they can't fill their seats with American kids, but it isn't the whole reason.  Many of the foreign professor prefer kids from their country.  Many of the foreign kids will work on a master's degree for 4 years and not question it.  The research dollars at these universities is insane, and they could recruit more American kids if they wanted.  Besides, it is supply and demand.  If so many from other countries weren't let in so easily, the University would have reason to recruit more people from this country.

Your pay is a little off too......depends on the zipcode.  In NC, you will not get an engineering job that pays six figures unless you have been working at it for a while (20+ years) and are an engineering supervisor or division head.  Even in those positions, six figures is rare.  PhD's really limit your job choices.  Someone with a PhD in engineering has exempted themselves from 85% of private industry jobs.  Most of the want a BS or MS degree.

One last misnomer.  They aren't paid for by the government.  I worked for the university during my degree (research, teaching, even grant funding meetings and presentations).  The tuition for the 35 kids in  one class I taught as a graduate student (if summed up) was more than they paid me in a year.


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## woodgeek (Mar 2, 2014)

Yup.  Different disciplines and schools matter.  But the point remains.  Most US students will pay $100k for a law, medicine or business degree, going into debt if they need to, but won't get an advanced engineering degree if you pay them.  Cutting them a check for $30k/year while they are in school seems like a pretty intense recruiting effort.  Without enough US engineers, firms have to import them.


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## Ashful (Mar 2, 2014)

Huntindog1 said:


> Now here is a very important thing to take note of that even takes this too a whole new level higher than I stated above. Because of flooding the market with all these added professionals. What these companies are doing is if you go to school for like a MET or an EET Engineeering degree you are being directed to Technician Jobs.


And rightfully so.  If they wanted real engineering jobs, they should've gotten a proper BSME or BSEE, or higher.  These "engineering technology" degrees are one of the biggest scams pulled by universities in the last 20 years.  Comparing a EET to a BSEE is like comparing a nurse practitioner to a doctor.  Yes, they can both write scripts, but I know which one I want to see when I have a problem.



woodgeek said:


> Most US students will pay $100k for a law, medicine or business degree, going into debt if they need to, but won't get an advanced engineering degree if you pay them.  Cutting them a check for $30k/year while they are in school seems like a pretty intense recruiting effort.  Without enough US engineers, firm have to import them.


True dat.  When I was working on my Ph.D., there were 13 students in my lab, and I was the only American.  Two were from Africa, one from India, the rest China.  In my entire program, there were less than a half dozen of "us," to several dozen of "them."  This was at a top 40 US school (US News) for graduate engineering, compensation package (year 2004) was $47k for tuition + $24k stipend + benefiits, and they just couldn't recruit enough citizen students.  Average graduating salary from my lab was $108k, which ain't bad for a foreign kid with a degree, but zero outside work experience.

What I saw was, "they" worked harder than "us."  Good for them.  Makes me think of stories of our own grandparents, who surely also worked harder than us.  Hunger and poverty are great motivators.  We'll be there someday... what goes around, comes around.


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## Retired Guy (Mar 3, 2014)

Graduated from college in the late 60's with $4000 debt. Starting Pay was $6200. The numbers are different today but the ratio isn't much different.


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## Huntindog1 (Mar 3, 2014)

I work in research and development as a technician with a two year degree and 30 years experience. We have the most problems with the PHD's followed by  the EE's and ME's . The EET's and MET's are the more rounded with the most common sense. One manager told me he is forced to get these book smart engineers from other countries and they dont know how to tie their shoes. I would have to agree I have to hold their hands all the time.

But for those of you following along alot of my points were missed in my original post.


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## Ashful (Mar 3, 2014)

Huntindog1 said:


> But for those of you following along alot of my points were missed in my original post.


Not missed, but interpreted as pointless whining.



Huntindog1 said:


> The way its supposed to work is companies in towns and cities across this great land should provide good jobs to young graduates of our great universities in the USA.
> 
> If the demand for your skills are in high demand wages should rise for your field of work.
> 
> ...


"The way its supposed to work"?  Give me a break.  There will always be those who work hard and smart to put themselves in demand.  There will always be those who don't.  Coasting through college and getting a degree doesn't entitle you to anything.

Your point about egg-head Ph.D.'s who can't design their way out of a wet paper bag is an excellent one, the only failure in this system being management not paying enough attention to unload these over-paid goofs.  It's never a perfect system, but with a little thought and a lot of effort, anyone can find a way to make it work for them.

The economy is in the tank right now, and I'll concede a lot of kids coming out of school are having trouble finding jobs.  I know several myself.  I also personally know others who have secured excellent jobs, and by no coincidence, these guys are much more ambitious and focused than the first group.  I'm amazed by the passivity of most of the 20-somethings I know today.


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## Huntindog1 (Mar 4, 2014)

I know it sounds like whining. Sorry for that.

It would be pointless whining if it was just a small issue. After years of watching it get worse and worse, its getting really bad. Take my word for it.

I am in the middle of it. Towns and companies around here  the demographics has completely changed in this area.

Nothing we can do about it. In 10 years I can come back and say I told you so.


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## webbie (Mar 4, 2014)

You can tell us about it, but there is little anyone can do about it. IMHO, it's a net positive that the world is becoming "one" in some of these matters. Lots of American engineers (including many of our members) have been to Asia, etc. as part of their jobs - many have spent time over there. Same is true for many disciplines.

The so-called "good ole days" were when we - 5% of the world's population - had most everything. Granted, that IS good for us, but in the long run it's unsustainable since folks everywhere want the same things (peace, food, a roof, medical care, community, etc.)....

This fine interweb we are communicating on is largely brought to you by Google, Apple and other companies who have vast numbers of engineers from all over the world. Musk is from S. Africa, Goog founder from Moscow, etc. etc.

A few years ago google was asked what percentage of their engineers were Indian and Pakistani. They refused to answer however all the insiders (other than one) who I have been in touch with have names which are not like "john smith".

As Joful points out, you can't slack anymore....in anything! Success in human affairs comes from being able to delay reward......I delayed my own while working hard for over 15 years. It was about that long before I even started to see my choices could become a livelihood.

The way I see it, there are two different subjects here. We are discussing the top 10% or even less...those who are smart (on the Bell Curve) and also have the means and other things in place to attain higher education...AND...to delay reward, etc.

Then there is the other - and probably larger - change in the American promise. As Henry Ford and many others noted, most men (people!) don't want to do what these engineers, docs and other pros do. Most people want to put in their hours and get paid and have a life outside of work. It used to be that if you worked hard at even relatively menial jobs you could make a decent living. Those days are over. It may take a couple books to determine or guess why. Some say it's because stockholders are now rewarded instead of employees. Others say it's just the natural progression of things. I'd say some of both. Social policies, a thing many people don't hardly believe in, are the only thing standing between many Americans and shantytowns. This was effectively the argument made in the controversial book The Bell Curve. What the authors said was that American society has become perfect in picking out the top couple percent and making sure most of the academics and other policies applied to sorting them out (SAT, LSAT, etc.), while forgetting about the larger masses of people in the middle of the curve. In other words, schools don't prod you along to be a carpenter, machinists, etc. (or, at least, not as much as they should given the numbers)...

Well, I wrote a book above anyway!


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## Ashful (Mar 4, 2014)

Very good post, webbie.

I think there's good and bad in it, Huntindog.  The good is that I can afford all kinds of luxuries my father could not, because these electro-widgets are produced infinitely cheaper than at any other time in modern history, largely thanks to foreign labor.  The bad of it is a lack of guaranteed jobs for those less competitive, can lead to many other social problems, including increased dependency on social welfare.

I used to work in Germany, and once admired their commitment to support German companies and manufacturing.  You can buy a Chinese widget in Germany, but it will be taxed to the point of putting its price at the level of the German widget.  So, choice is not limited, as Geo. Bush has so kindly done with our beloved incandescent bulbs, but one is sort of coerced to support German companies.  Trouble is, there are loopholes and unintended consequences in every bit of legislation.


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## bassJAM (Mar 4, 2014)

Huntindog1 said:


> I work in research and development as a technician with a two year degree and 30 years experience. We have the most problems with the PHD's followed by  the EE's and ME's . The EET's and MET's are the more rounded with the most common sense. One manager told me he is forced to get these book smart engineers from other countries and they dont know how to tie their shoes. I would have to agree I have to hold their hands all the time.
> 
> But for those of you following along alot of my points were missed in my original post.



I"m also in an R&D type role, with a Bachelors as an MET.  I'll echo the part about common sense.  I worked with one recent ME grad who somehow had never used a screwdriver.  He had no idea what to do with it.  Another had never seen a ratchet, I had to flip the switch for her so she could loosen a bolt because she kept trying to turn it and it just kept slipping, never catching on that something was wrong.  I've got tones of these stories.  These were 100% American's with a BS in ME  It didn't seem to matter to that company though, as they put ME's on an immediate track for management positions, and let us MET's do all the real work but payed us significantly less.  I guess it somewhat worked out because I spent less than $20k on my Bachelors back in 2002.

I have found out that if you have a little experience, employers don't seem to care if you have a technical degree or now.  Switching jobs put me in line with what ME's are making in my field.

PhD's are another story altogether.  Sometimes I wonder how they take showers without drowning themselves.


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## Ashful (Mar 4, 2014)

bassJAM said:


> PhD's are another story altogether.  Sometimes I wonder how they take showers without drowning themselves.


LOL!  We used to say PhD = Permanent head Damage.

If you don't know how to use a ratchet going into college, you parents failed you, not your school.  I'd be disappointed if my college educators wasted time on things I rightfully learned fixing cars as a teen.


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## bassJAM (Mar 4, 2014)

Joful said:


> LOL!  We used to say PhD = Permanent head Damage.
> 
> If you don't know how to use a ratchet going into college, you parents failed you, not your school.  I'd be disappointed if my college educators wasted time on things I rightfully learned fixing cars as a teen.



I know it's not the school's fault, but it still amazes me that someone with so little common sense (or mechanical experience) could make it through an engineering program.  I understand an ME degree is very math and theory based, but it seems worthless if you can't put all that into practice.


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## woodgeek (Mar 4, 2014)

Heck, I've seen students at Ivy League schools that don't know how to slice bread with a serrated knife.  

They usually become MDs, but not surgeons.


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## jharkin (Mar 4, 2014)

Joful said:


> LOL!  We used to say PhD = Permanent head Damage.
> 
> If you don't know how to use a ratchet going into college, you parents failed you, not your school.  I'd be disappointed if my college educators wasted time on things I rightfully learned fixing cars as a teen.




We had some of those in school. I remembering trying very hard not to laugh when a professor had to explain what a combination wrench was to a MechE student.

I know there are lots of kids who go into it because they like the math, but I was always the opposite.  I struggled through the pure theory clsses but then it all made sense when we got to the applied stuff and did real world examples.  I especially the later courses when we got to work in the labs more and build stuff.


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## Adios Pantalones (Mar 4, 2014)

bassJAM said:


> PhD's are another story altogether.  Sometimes I wonder how they take showers without drowning themselves.



I resemble that remark


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## bmblank (Mar 4, 2014)

Another bachelors in met here. Places are definitely getting better about looking at actual experience over a piece of paper (bsme degree), but there are still a lot that won't consider hiring somebody without those letters in that exact combination. I find smaller companies way better. Large companies skip right over talent if they actually have to read a cover letter to find out a little about somebody.


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## bassJAM (Mar 4, 2014)

bmblank said:


> Another bachelors in met here. Places are definitely getting better about looking at actual experience over a piece of paper (bsme degree), but there are still a lot that won't consider hiring somebody without those letters in that exact combination. I find smaller companies way better. Large companies skip right over talent if they actually have to read a cover letter to find out a little about somebody.



Oddly enough I started out at a $80 billion dollar company as a mid level tech.  I then moved to an even larger company as a mid level engineer.  Now that I think about it, I've got 5 other friends who are MET's.  The 2 that work at small companies are CAD jockeys and take direction from Engineers.  Of the 3 that work for Fortune 500 companies, 2 are treated as full on engineers, and one is a high level tech (but he only has an associates degree).


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## Huntindog1 (Mar 4, 2014)

Where I work EET are not considered for any engineering jobs, MET still can get in manufacturing support or service nothing else. Oh and now they will only hire fresh outs as they need to brain wash them. No professional  hires.


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## Ashful (Mar 4, 2014)

Huntindog1 said:


> Where I work EET are not considered for any engineering jobs...



I'd hire an EET for a product engineering (support) role, but not a real design role.  I work with several BSEE's, and even they struggle with the necessary skills to do hardcore design, almost always requiring some hand-holding from an MSEE or Ph.D. anytime real R&D is required.  The good thing is that only a small fraction of "engineering" jobs really require any level of true engineering calculation.  How many BSEE's can remember how to do Fourier transforms 10 years out of school, let alone calculate Chebyshev polynomials for filters or field modes in a waveguide?  How many EET's even learned the required mathematics for these common design problems, in the first place?

The reality is very few (much less than 5% in my experience) engineers actually DO any real design work, which is where the EET (and I would also assume the MET) comes in handy.  There's no need to have a company full of Ph.D. engineers for every role from product engineer to app's engineer, although I have indeed worked in this environment (fiberoptic telecom industry).  Many times a wrench turner who can read tables and use common sense is exactly what fits the bill.

Back to the OP, I find most foreign-schooled BSEEs know their theory and math much better than us, but I don't trust many of them around power tools.


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## bmblank (Mar 5, 2014)

At places I've worked the actual design work is generally don't by the designers and/or detailers. The engineers usually end up being relegated to project management and support rolls. A couple of the good ones are kept to do fea or simulations of some sort.


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## bmblank (Mar 5, 2014)

Another thought. I think a lot of companies have been burned by hiring degreed engineers that can't design their way out of a wet paper bag. People who will design unmachinable parts and people who say this is the way it has to be since they have a degree and they know what's best, despite the company building the same part for the last 20 or 30 years.


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## razerface (Mar 5, 2014)

bmblank said:


> Another thought. I think a lot of companies have been burned by hiring degreed engineers that can't design their way out of a wet paper bag. People who will design unmachinable parts and people who say this is the way it has to be since they have a degree and they know what's best, despite the company building the same part for the last 20 or 30 years.


Amen. I come from the Tool & Die trade. We got quite a few giggles from things paper engineers thought would work.


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## Ashful (Mar 5, 2014)

bmblank said:


> Another thought. I think a lot of companies have been burned by hiring degreed engineers that can't design their way out of a wet paper bag. People who will design unmachinable parts and people who say this is the way it has to be since they have a degree and they know what's best, despite the company building the same part for the last 20 or 30 years.


Completely true.  I've been astounded by a few engineers who've said the same to me, but it has only been a very small fraction of those with whom I've worked, only two examples coming immediately to mind.  Guys like that can hide in a big company, but usually don't survive long in a real manufacturing environment.

However, I don't think you can blame the collegiate system for boneheads like this.  It's not like your EET prof's spend a semester saying, "lefty loosey, righty tighty," or "this is the difference between a socket-head cap screw and a cup point set screw."  Perhaps the more bookish and less hands-on types are more likely drawn toward a graduate program and get their MSEE or Ph.D.  Likewise, a guy whose father was a mechanic who'd have more likely grown up around tools and machines, might see the EET or MET has the right fit between a 2 year associates degree and the full BSEE.  There are trade-offs in everything.

Me?  I grew up working for a plumber and an engineer (my grandfather's and father's businesses, respectively), maintaining many rental properties (everything from electrical and plumbing to carpentry and masonry), and helping dad with repairing cars and lawn equipment.  At the same time, there were family expectations that I get a college education, and that better be in something that will serve me well.  Now in the working world, I've been surprised by the majority of MSEE's and Ph.D.'s I know who are serious gear heads and amateur farmers.  They're a surprisingly dynamic group.


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