# My lawn mower died AGAIN !



## Pallet Pete (May 3, 2013)

Briggs just seem to be junk motors these days this is the third one in 4 years. I am tired of throwing money down the drain so I threw more potentially down the drain today. 

 We went to look at mowers and discovered that most push mowers where basically the same motor that keeps giving up and committing suicide on us. Anything better and you go from 299 to the 499 range. Well me being a cheapskate with a smallish yard I decided to buy the harbor freight preditor motor. http://www.harborfreight.com/engine...as-engine-certified-for-california-69731.html We got it for 89.99 after a 20% discount. 

How many of you guys run one and how good are they for you ? How do you change the oil ? It has no drain plug but then non of the newer mowers we looked at did either.  It looks like a exact Honda clone ! 

Thanks 
Pete


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2013)

Never had a HF vertical shaft Chonda motor but I have the horizontal shaft 6.5hp one on my log splitter and two generators with 6.5hp Chondas on them and have run the heck out of them for years with no problems so far. One out of the box had a defective low oil switch. I just bypassed it. It is a common problem with genuine Hondas too.


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## Pallet Pete (May 4, 2013)

Thanks BB I just finished installing it. My first observation is it needs a throttle control lever the old mower never had on. I think I will just hook a spring on it instead and use the throttle screw to set it and forget it. The motor sounds really good as well ( Nice N Quiet ) I primed it till I heard gas then pulled twice and off she went. I hate to say it but it already appears
to be better than the last 3 Briggs motors.

Pete


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2013)

I have had nothing but trouble with Briggs motors for years. When the twin on the tractor, with the stuck float, finally swallows its guts it will be the last one I ever have.


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## Pallet Pete (May 4, 2013)

The funny thing is the Briggs on my snowblower runs fantastic one pull ever time. Every mower has lasted about 1.5 years each then poof dead. I don't understand.

Pete


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## MasterMech (May 4, 2013)

Briggs builds everything from $99 junkers to $499+ Cadillacs.  I like the Honda GC's until we start talking about $8-900 push mowers, then it's the baby Kawasaki all the way. 

Lots of Briggs machines out there mowing for 20+ years (including a few in my fleet), do some research and you'll be able to discern the differences (from cheapo vs. old reliable) quite easily.  Much less expensive than labeling an entire brand junk based on experience with the entry-level market.


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## BrotherBart (May 4, 2013)

I label'em junk after owning the damn things for 50 years. Using them for 60 years.  And that $499 one is the one in the garden tractor. And parts prices are brutal. Years ago when a log rolled downhill and broke the carb on the 5 horse Briggs on the splitter the cheapest one I could find new was $94. Even the guy at the shop gulped when he saw the price. Just your basic 1988 5 horse one lunger. Carb on one of the Chondas gummed up when I let it sit too long. Looked around and a carb kit was $14 but a new carb was $18. Shipping included. Didn't take long to figure that one out. 

Each to their own I say.


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## raybonz (May 4, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Briggs just seem to be junk motors these days this is the third one in 4 years. I am tired of throwing money down the drain so I threw more potentially down the drain today.
> 
> We went to look at mowers and discovered that most push mowers where basically the same motor that keeps giving up and committing suicide on us. Anything better and you go from 299 to the 499 range. Well me being a cheapskate with a smallish yard I decided to buy the harbor freight preditor motor. http://www.harborfreight.com/engine...as-engine-certified-for-california-69731.html We got it for 89.99 after a 20% discount.
> 
> ...


My Cub Cadet has a Chinese engine and has been fine the past couple years.. I just change the oil once a year and sharpen the blades..

Ray


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## btuser (May 4, 2013)

I like the Briggs Vanguard motors.  Can't stand the others.


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## Pallet Pete (May 4, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> Briggs builds everything from $99 junkers to $499+ Cadillacs.  I like the Honda GC's until we start talking about $8-900 push mowers, then it's the baby Kawasaki all the way.
> 
> Lots of Briggs machines out there mowing for 20+ years (including a few in my fleet), do some research and you'll be able to discern the differences (from cheapo vs. old reliable) quite easily.  Much less expensive than labeling an entire brand junk based on experience with the entry-level market.


I did the  research the first time and purchased  so called high end model it died so then I purchased the cheaper one it died then the same as the second it died. My opinion Briggs is junk. The snowblower is an older Briggs and you can tell it runs great. 

Pete


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## billb3 (May 4, 2013)

I've had an 800 series and a vertical shaft blow oil seals and all the crankshaft oil at once and seize.
Just out of warrantee on both of 'em too.


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## Pallet Pete (May 5, 2013)

Finished all the breaking in and mowed today that motor is a little beastie ! It runs quiet and very very smooth. Best $89 bucks I have spent in a long time. 

Pete


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## wishlist (May 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Finished all the breaking in and mowed today that motor is a little beastie ! It runs quiet and very very smooth. Best $89 bucks I have spent in a long time.
> 
> Pete



Hey Pete, I thought you were just gonna get a reel mower and let the wife take over ?  Lol...... :D


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## Pallet Pete (May 5, 2013)

I thought about it lol :D

Pete


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## OldLumberKid (May 5, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> Finished all the breaking in and mowed today that motor is a little beastie ! It runs quiet and very very smooth. Best $89 bucks I have spent in a long time.
> 
> Pete


 
So you can retrofit these things to an older mower, or does it have to be only a specific model?



wishlist said:


> Hey Pete, I thought you were just gonna get a reel mower and let the wife take over ? Lol...... :D


That worked here, until the darn push mower seized up


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## MasterMech (May 6, 2013)

btuser said:


> I like the Briggs Vanguard motors. Can't stand the others.


 
Have a few of those running some golf equipment.  Many of them have 5000+ hours on them and still go out and cut/rake every day.


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## Pallet Pete (May 6, 2013)

OldLumberKid said:


> So you can retrofit these things to an older mower, or does it have to be only a specific model?
> 
> 
> That worked here, until the darn push mower seized up



They have multiple bolt holes and direct fit most push mowers. You can either run a bolt and nut through the holes or tap the holes and screw the bolts in. I didn't bother tapping just ran the bolts through with lock washers.

Pete


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## Jack Straw (May 6, 2013)

I got a used Honda walk behind for $40 that needed the carb cleaned and the clutch adjusted on CL.I see quite a few good deals like that quite often. People don't or can't fix them and you can get them cheap.


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## TMonter (May 6, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> I did the research the first time and purchased so called high end model it died so then I purchased the cheaper one it died then the same as the second it died. My opinion Briggs is junk. The snowblower is an older Briggs and you can tell it runs great.
> 
> Pete


 

Briggs motors are fine but the recent models don't take kindly to poor quality gas. Were you letting un-stabilized gas sit in the motors for long periods?


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## Pallet Pete (May 6, 2013)

TMonter said:


> Briggs motors are fine but the recent models don't take kindly to poor quality gas. Were you letting un-stabilized gas sit in the motors for long periods?


No oil change 3 times a year small yard and premium gas. The gas never has a chance to get old and I put enough in for the lawn each time anyways. 

Pete


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## nate379 (May 6, 2013)

Same.  JianDong or something like that.  The thing SIPS fuel and is quiet compared to the Breaks and Scatters (B&S) motor on my other splitter.



BrotherBart said:


> Never had a HF vertical shaft Chonda motor but I have the horizontal shaft 6.5hp one on my log splitter and two generators with 6.5hp Chondas on them and have run the heck out of them for years with no problems so far. One out of the box had a defective low oil switch. I just bypassed it. It is a common problem with genuine Hondas too.


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## Pallet Pete (May 6, 2013)

I have a Subaru on my splitter it runs great so far. I have only had the splitter a few months though. 

Pete


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## ironpony (May 6, 2013)

both my push mowers have Briggs on them,  I pulled both of them out of the trash. I have NEVER purchased a push mower, ride around on trash day pick one up, clean the carb and run it for years. check the oil once in a while, never changed. If I am remembering correctly in 30 years of mowing with a push mower, I am only on the fourth FREE one. Now I do not treat any of my other equipment this way but push mowers are a dime a dozen on trash day.


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## Pallet Pete (May 6, 2013)

ironpony said:


> both my push mowers have Briggs on them,  I pulled both of them out of the trash. I have NEVER purchased a push mower, ride around on trash day pick one up, clean the carb and run it for years. check the oil once in a while, never changed. If I am remembering correctly in 30 years of mowing with a push mower, I am only on the fourth FREE one. Now I do not treat any of my other equipment this way but push mowers are a dime a dozen on trash day.


I should come to your town ! Around here they get scrapped as soon as they hit the curb and finding one is a like finding a needle in a haystack lol.

Pete


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## TMonter (May 6, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> No oil change 3 times a year small yard and premium gas. The gas never has a chance to get old and I put enough in for the lawn each time anyways.
> 
> Pete


 
How were you storing the mowers at the end of the year? Premium gas doesn't mean much if it has ethanol in it and in most areas of the country it does now. That's one of the reasons I switched to AV gas a couple years back. I got sick of cleaning carburetors every spring even with stabilized gas.


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## nate379 (May 6, 2013)

How do you like getting fumed out with the AV gas? I ran a gallon or so in my ZTR mower when I had just a bit of mowing left and I was out of regular gas. I could smell the fumes off it for weeks and several tanks of fuel later. Dunno why?!

Running 100LL in stuff not designed to run on it is actually pretty rough on the motor.


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## TMonter (May 6, 2013)

nate379 said:


> How do you like getting fumed out with the AV gas? I ran a gallon or so in my ZTR mower when I had just a bit of mowing left and I was out of regular gas. I could smell the fumes off it for weeks and several tanks of fuel later. Dunno why?!
> 
> Running 100LL in stuff not designed to run on it is actually pretty rough on the motor.


 
Actually when you pull a motor apart that has been run on AV gas versus standard gas apart you can tell very little difference if any. Are you sure it was AV gas it was smelling? AV evaporates cleanly compare to standard gas.


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## blades (May 6, 2013)

old alky gas is only part of the problem, the other part is everything is set so lean to meet  emmision standards coupled with the alky fuel already runing hot, just plain melts them down. Part prices have always been nasty for the most part. I remember a poster of a Honda Accord in an insurance office, if you bought all the pieces individually the car would cost close to 5 times it msrp.


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## Badfish740 (May 6, 2013)

ironpony said:


> both my push mowers have Briggs on them, I pulled both of them out of the trash. I have NEVER purchased a push mower, ride around on trash day pick one up, clean the carb and run it for years. check the oil once in a while, never changed. If I am remembering correctly in 30 years of mowing with a push mower, I am only on the fourth FREE one. Now I do not treat any of my other equipment this way but push mowers are a dime a dozen on trash day.


 
My (retired) dad does a good business picking up dead equipment at the curb, making usually minor repairs, and reselling it.  For folks who don't have the first clue how this stuff works, once the mower doesn't start, they basically have two options-get it fixed or buy a new one.  Most small equipment repair shops these days really make their $$$ servicing "fleets" of mowers, trimmers, and the like for landscapers, farms, rental outfits, and construction companies as well as dealing in high end lawn equipment.  When joe blow homeowner walks in and needs his Home Depot special 6.5HP self propelled mower fixed they say "Sure-here are our labor rates!"  At that point, joe blow homeowner puts his mower back in the trunk, and heads to Home Depot to buy a new one, stopping by the house on the way to put the mower out for trash.    My dad then picks it up, cleans last year's varnish out of the carb, changes the oil, shines it up, and puts it out for sale in front of his house for anywhere from $50-80 depending on the type of mower.  This time of year he can barely keep up with demand.


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## nate379 (May 6, 2013)

No that is not correct at all!

100LL is a very dry fuel. Reg gasoline has some lube qualities to it. We can call this "top end lube". Run just 100LL in an engine not designed to run on it and you will end up burning it up.
Also 100LL is designed for engines that run at about 3500 rpm constantly. (piston engine aircraft) Running it in a higher RPM application can cause slight amounts of detonation even though it has a higher octane rating because the way it burns.

I run a mix of 100LL and high test gas in my race car. The 100LL raises the octane to keep my timing from being pulled (knock sensor) and the pump gas serves as a lube. Usually run about 50/50. I'd run race gas but it runs about $9/gal where 100LL is about $5/gal.  Plus much easier to get 100LL, there is a pump not even 1/2 a mile from my house.

I think a few folks have been watching too much TV where the characters fill their car on 100LL and all of sudden it goes from 100hp to 600hp 



TMonter said:


> Actually when you pull a motor apart that has been run on AV gas versus standard gas apart you can tell very little difference if any. Are you sure it was AV gas it was smelling? AV evaporates cleanly compare to standard gas.


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## Badfish740 (May 6, 2013)

nate379 said:


> I run a mix of 100LL and high test gas in my race car. The 100LL raises the octane to keep my timing from being pulled (knock sensor) and the pump gas serves as a lube. Usually run about 50/50. I'd run race gas but it runs about $9/gal where 100LL is about $5/gal. Plus much easier to get 100LL, there is a pump not even 1/2 a mile from my house.


 
I haven't priced it lately but back when I was into turbo'ed 4 cylinders I used toulene bought from paint supply stores to boost octane.  I got the recipe from a Porsche enthusiast site-they have the formulas where you plug in the ratio of toulene to gasoline at what octane and what you'll end up with.  They recommended adding a small amount of ATF as upper cylinder lube.


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## TMonter (May 6, 2013)

nate379 said:


> No that is not correct at all!
> 
> 100LL is a very dry fuel. Reg gasoline has some lube qualities to it. We can call this "top end lube". Run just 100LL in an engine not designed to run on it and you will end up burning it up.
> Also 100LL is designed for engines that run at about 3500 rpm constantly. (piston engine aircraft) Running it in a higher RPM application can cause slight amounts of detonation even though it has a higher octane rating because the way it burns.
> ...


 
That can't be right. Detonation is a function of vapor pressure and octane basically indicates the resistance to detonation typically through the additive package. What RPM you run at should have very little to do with it since detonation is driven by the compression ratio and vapor pressure of the fuel.

Airplanes do run around 3500 at cruise not certainly not all aircraft and not during part load and takeoff/landing conditions.

If 100LL were as poor about lubricating the engine as you say there is no way they would use it in aircraft. In fact the lead in AV gas being a lubricant is the primary reason it is there.

Note I'm not saying you'll get more power, but AV fuel because of it's ultra refined nature does not break down as quickly as pump gas.


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## BrotherBart (May 6, 2013)

Be interesting for somebody to explain to me what "additive package" can raise octane rating. That takes place in the alkylation and iso units at the refinery. You can't make wine from water unless your initials are JC.


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## Pallet Pete (May 6, 2013)

TMonter said:


> How were you storing the mowers at the end of the year? Premium gas doesn't mean much if it has ethanol in it and in most areas of the country it does.
> 
> I drain it then run the mower dry every year with all my equipment. I got tired of cleaning carbs as well !
> 
> Pete


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## TMonter (May 6, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> Be interesting for somebody to explain to me what "additive package" can raise octane rating. That takes place in the alkylation and iso units at the refinery. You can't make wine from water unless your initials are JC.


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiknock_agent

http://www.onepetro.org/mslib/servlet/onepetropreview?id=WPC-4614

http://acta.chem-soc.si/51/51-2-293.pdf

Don't forget ethanol which is used as a replacement for MTBE as an anti-knock agent.


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## BrotherBart (May 6, 2013)

And not one refiner on the planet uses them. Their "additive packages" are detergents for fuel system cleaning and to prevent coke build up. Lead is introduced in the refining process. Not as a additive.


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## TMonter (May 6, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> And not one refiner on the planet uses them. Their "additive packages" are detergents for fuel system cleaning and to prevent coke build up. Lead is introduced in the refining process. Not as a additive.


 
Sort of splitting hairs aren't you? Perhaps not the best choice of words but with several of the anti-knock additives used they are blended in after the refining process. I won't claim to know much about the cracking process as I do about the heat generation process side of the refineries I've worked on.


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## BrotherBart (May 6, 2013)

And those are alkylate and isobutane. The gas comes out of the refinery at the best octane it is ever gonna be. Additive packages are added at the loading rack locally before delivery to the station since different brands come out of the same tanks at the terminal. The brand specific additives are dumped in just prior to delivery.


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## jharkin (May 6, 2013)

We just had the avgas discussion in a saw thread recentlly. Other than being ethanol free and better QC avgas has no magic properties... Other than draining you wallet fast. The lead will foul plugs.... And you are poisoning yourself.

100LL has something like 10x the lead mogas as had before it was banned. Not good.

---
Edit: I looked it up. Before the final ban in the 90s, leaded auto gas contained 0.1gram/gallon lead. 100LL contains 1-2 grams/gallon.

Also was surprised to learn that only 30% of the general aviation fleet still runs 100LL exclusively, and plans are in place to phase it out completely before 2023.


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## velvetfoot (May 6, 2013)

I found it interesting that the engine on the new Ariens snowblower I got at the end of the winter has a Briggs engine.  I hope it lasts as long as the Tecumseh Sno King on the old one.


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## fbelec (May 6, 2013)

tecumseh engines always worked well for me i like them better than bs engines. what happened to tecumseh company?


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## BrotherBart (May 6, 2013)

fbelec said:


> tecumseh engines always worked well for me i like them better than bs engines. what happened to tecumseh company?


 
I have a cast iron Tecumseh one lunger on an old 4,800 watt generator that just refuses to die. Thing weighs a gazillion pounds. I have a newer three horse on the shelf that I have been planning to use for something for 28 years.

"On February 10, 2009, Platinum Equity LLC announced that Tecumseh Power Company had sold certain assets of its engine business to Certified Parts Corporation. This included the sale of existing and unfinished engine parts inventory, tools to make finished product and certain intellectual property assets. Certified Parts Corporation also assumed responsibility for warranty of previous engine sales."


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## blades (May 7, 2013)

Tecumseh belly up.


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## nate379 (May 7, 2013)

Believe whatever you'd like, I'm not going to continue to argue.  The info I posted is correct info.  I did go to school for this stuff... did you?



TMonter said:


> That can't be right. Detonation is a function of vapor pressure and octane basically indicates the resistance to detonation typically through the additive package. What RPM you run at should have very little to do with it since detonation is driven by the compression ratio and vapor pressure of the fuel.
> 
> Airplanes do run around 3500 at cruise not certainly not all aircraft and not during part load and takeoff/landing conditions.
> 
> ...


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## nate379 (May 7, 2013)

Dunno but did they ever built an engine that was closed to balanced?! My Dad had one on a wood splitter and the thing would walk around a bit from it shaking so much! Been the case for every one I've used!



fbelec said:


> tecumseh engines always worked well for me i like them better than bs engines. what happened to tecumseh company?


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## TMonter (May 7, 2013)

nate379 said:


> Believe whatever you'd like, I'm not going to continue to argue. The info I posted is correct info. I did go to school for this stuff... did you?


 
I hold a masters in combustion engineering, so yes.


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## Danno77 (May 7, 2013)

I haven't had the best luck with my briggs engines, but I didn't take good care of those things because they were cheaper. Things that I own with Kohler or Kawasaki engines were freaking expensive, so they receive my best attention. Kinda a catch 22...


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## MasterMech (May 7, 2013)

TMonter said:


> I hold a masters in combustion engineering, so yes.


I'm going to print myself out one of those, it's a phony sure, but it just sounds so cool.


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## jharkin (May 7, 2013)

TMonter said:


> Airplanes do run around 3500 at cruise not certainly not all aircraft and not during part load and takeoff/landing conditions.
> 
> If 100LL were as poor about lubricating the engine as you say there is no way they would use it in aircraft. In fact the lead in AV gas being a lubricant is the primary reason it is there.


 
Typical Lycoming and Continental flat 4s and 6s you find in your average Cessna or Piper run closer to the low 2000s at cruise. A big O-540/580 used in competition aerobatic aircraft  might hit 3000, but not for long periods.

Lead does provide lubrication but it was actually originally put into avgas as an octane booster. It was the only way to hit the very high octanes (100/130 and 115/145) that the big WWII aero engines needed for high altitude supercharged operations.


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## Danno77 (May 7, 2013)

I hold an associates degree in Combustion Theory.


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## Pallet Pete (May 7, 2013)

I fart all the time does that count ?

Pete


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## TMonter (May 7, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Typical Lycoming and Continental flat 4s and 6s you find in your average Cessna or Piper run closer to the low 2000s at cruise. A big O-540/580 used in competition aerobatic aircraft might hit 3000, but not for long periods.
> 
> Lead does provide lubrication but it was actually originally put into avgas as an octane booster. It was the only way to hit the very high octanes (100/130 and 115/145) that the big WWII aero engines needed for high altitude supercharged operations.


 
Shows you how often I fly small aircraft these days. The last small plane I flew in was a Rutan Long-EZ and I know at cruise it was doing around 2500 RPM.


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## nate379 (May 7, 2013)

Maybe the planes are setup different up here? I don't mess with them but several of my friend are pilots.  I read somewhere that per capita Alaska is #1 with airplanes/pilots.  Lots of places that's the only way to get there.


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## BrotherBart (May 7, 2013)

Danno77 said:


> I hold an associates degree in Combustion Theory.


 
I have an Associate's Degree in Consumption Tecnology.


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## blades (May 7, 2013)

Pallet Pete said:


> I fart all the time does that count ?
> 
> Pete


only if you light it off.  Then again that might be detonation.


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## Pallet Pete (May 7, 2013)

blades said:


> only if you light it off.


I memories of the party days return so vividly lol ! 

Pete


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## blades (May 7, 2013)

I think this thread is going up in flames.


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## Pallet Pete (May 7, 2013)

blades said:


> I think this thread is going up in flames.


I think that happened a while ago 



Pete


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## BrotherBart (May 7, 2013)

Yep. To prevent premature detonation I am going to...


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