# In response to Sugars question on Europas gasification techniques.



## Fsappo (Nov 4, 2009)

Ok, Sugar, and to anyone else interested.  Of course, I'll enjoy doing this because I use a Europa, made by Paromax, in my showroom and I also sell them.  Any chance to learn more about this technology by way of discussion is good for me and my customers.  You asked for links, so I will just include them with a brief description.

This is one that talks about the 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency of the stove using the lower heat value.
http://www.paromax.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=12&lang=en

Here is where they list the 10-1 fuel to air ratio.  They are still updating their website.  Some of the text talks about 86% efficiency, which was the testing from about 6 years ago.  When they re tested the stove this year for the tax credit, it tested at 94.9%
http://www.paromax.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6&Itemid=13&lang=en

The certificate
http://www.paromax.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=17&lang=en

http://www.pelletstove.com/  if you click on efficiency report it shows more

Statistical information was taken from:
'Options to Reduce Emissions from Residential Wood Burning Appliances
Canadian Government Discussion Paper of July 30, 2002'

Table 6: Net efficiency (%) of various wood heating appliances

Note: Net efficiency rests on combustion efficiency and heat transfer efficiency.


Aside from the obvious savings
by heating with an efficient Dell-Point
pellet stove, it also means that
a charge of fuel will last longer and there is
less unwanted exhaust gases and 
particulate. 

In other words:
* More heat for you dollar
* Better for the environment
* Less time cleaning out ash
* Add fuel less frequently








Try the Fuel Cost Calculator to see how much money you can save!

Dell-Point has the only EPA certified pellet stove available. Other pellet stoves have an EPA exemption
which is allowed since they use high air to fuel ratios (normally 35 lbs of air to 1 lb of fuel). This allows
their high amount of particulate levels to be distributed over more air, allowing for this exemption.
The Dell-Point 'Gas-a-fire' burn system uses 8 lbs of air to every 1 lb of fuel and still maintains low particulate levels 
(which means that's it's far more efficient). Furthermore, there is more heat going to you, and
far less (up to 50%) going out the exhaust!

Type of Stove Net Efficiency (%) 
Conventional wood stove 54% 
Catalytic wood stove 68% 
Non-certified pellet stove 33.4% to 70.5% 
Dell-Point certified pellet stove 86% 
Masonary heater 54% to 65% 


Dell-Points Patented EPA certified Technology: 
As tested by Canada Advanced Combustion Labs Government of Canada 

Calculation of staciometric products actual products and efficiency

   Unit: DC-2000        Burn Rate: 1.08 Kg/h        

Fuel:  Wood pellets (B415.1 std values)  Date:  98-11-03           

ULTIMATE     Dry Calorific Value (MJ/kg)  19.81  8517 BTU/lb)     
ANALYSIS (dry basis)  Fuel Moisture (% wet basis)  6.3  6.7   % db)     
Carbon  48.73  As-Fired C.V. (MJ/kg)  >18.56  7980 BTU/lb)   
Hydrogen  6.87  Flue Gas Values:    % Combustible in Ash: 0        
Sulphur  0  % CO2  9.5  from O2:  9.46  CONVERSION FACTORS:  
Nitrogen  0  % O2  10.8  from CO2:  10.75  Mj/kg = BTU/lb*.002326  
Ash  0.5  % CO  0.015        F = 9/5*C+32   C+ 5/9*(F-32)  
Oxygen  43.9  Flue ©  93  199  F  MC(wb) = MC(db)/(100+MC (db))  
Total  100  Amb't ©  20  68  F  MC(db) = MC(wb)/(100-MC (wb))  
               LOSSES  BTU/lb  BTU/lb   
Air & Flue Gas  From co2  From o2        dry fuel  as fired     
% Excess Air  104.63  105.57     dfg  401  376  4.71  
Comb'n air (Sft3/lb fuel)  154.5  155.2     Fuel H2O  75  70  0.88  
Dfg (lb/lb dry fuel)  12.8  12.9     H2  688  644  8.08  
Tfg (lb/lb dry fuel)  13.5  13.5     CO  8  7  0.04  
Dfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel)  205.2  206.1     Comb. In ash        0  
Dfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel)  153.3  154.0     Total Loss  1171  1097  13.70  
Tfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel)  223.4  224.3     % Efficiency        86.3  
Tfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel)  166.9  167.6                 
CO (lb/lb dry fuel)  0.002  0.002                 
Vol fraction H2O in flue  0.081  0.081                 
               Products of Combustion at Stociometric  
STOCIOMETRIC VALUES              lb/lb  Sft3/lb  
Stociometric Air Req'd(lb/lb  dry fuel)           dry fuel  dry fuel  
Carbon (32/12.011*.01*C)  1.298     Stociometric CO2  1.786  14.57  
Hydrogen (8/1.008-.01-H) 0.545     Stociometric N2 4.663  59.75  
Sulphur (32/32.066*.066*.01*S)  0.000     Stociometric SO2  0.000  0.00  
      Total  1.844      Total dfg
    6.448  74.32  
      Less )2 in fuel  0.439     Wet products        
      O2 from air  1.405     H2O (reaction)  0.614  12.23  
Associated N2 (76.85/23.15*.02)  4.663     H2O (fuel)    0.067  1.34  
Total dry air:        6.067     Total flue gas  7.129  87.89  
               Stociometric % CO2:  19.6     


Tell me if that helps, Sugar


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## hoverfly (Nov 4, 2009)

In time this kind of technology will be required in all pellet stoves.  Gasification tech is cool stuff.


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## Fsappo (Nov 4, 2009)

I'll tell you, I'm trying to learn more about it.  What I do know, is our Europa in our showroom will out heat a 56K BTU stove from AES while using about 40% less pellets.  Anyone who doesnt believe it is welcome to stop by and see it in action.  It's truly the most amazing thing I have ever burned biomass in.


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## Delta-T (Nov 4, 2009)

I can attest to the performance of the Europa. It is quite the stove. I bit large for my tastes but very capable. Had one in my showroom several years ago, mostly used it to burn corn. Really cool flame pattern.


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## MCPO (Nov 4, 2009)

OK, Thats two recommendations for the Europa from dealers and a few links to the manufacturers claims and their printed data to view.   Personally I`d like to hear from some actual users of the stove out there ?
 Or even better a comparison of this stove with a high end unit by another well known brand..
 Jamestown Stove Co says they make the most efficient pellet stoves in the world but how can one be sure of that?
 I`m not saying any of these claims aren`t true but a manufacturers brochures and printed claims are hardly proof.


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## doghouse (Nov 4, 2009)

Just found this:


http://www.spaplaceinc.com/dell-point-europa-pellet-stove.html


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## Tarbot (Nov 4, 2009)

They are still being made.  That article is old.  I believe Paromax is representing them now.  The folks on www.iburncorn.com have some users and info on the stove.


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## MCPO (Nov 4, 2009)

This is what puzzles me :  I assume what they are saying below is in stage 2 the stove burns unburned gasses in the secondary burn  but they claim in stage 1 the fuel bed is super heated to burn all fuel completely. If all fuel is burned completely then what is left to create a secondary burn? 




Flex Fuel Twin Stage Burner

The heart of the Europa is: twin stage burner designed to burn biomass fuels. It burns fuel more efficiently and completely than any other pellet stove on the market.

Stage 1: Fuel bed is super heated to burn all fuels completely.

Stage 2: Unburned gases are released in the burn chamber than a secondary burn is created by injecting oxygen into the upper part of the burner.

Results: 35% more heat from each pound of fuel.


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## Fsappo (Nov 4, 2009)

doghouse said:
			
		

> Just found this:
> 
> 
> http://www.spaplaceinc.com/dell-point-europa-pellet-stove.html



That information is outdated and incorrect.  I contacted these folks 2 weeks ago telling them such.  No response of course.  The technology in the GF55 regency is nothing like the Europa.  Its the same old drop pellets in a tray that has holes in it and blow air thru the pellets that 90% of the stoves out there have.

Like I said, anyone local can come and see the stove in operation.  The stove running at 2 lbs per hour of fuel will heat like a 40K btu typical stove on high.  The EPA testing of 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency , not combustion efficiency, was done at an independent lab.  It was also done using the lower heat value.

I'm not out to convince anyone that the stove is amazing.  A consumer can find that out for themselves if they were actually interested.  

Sugar/pook wanted to see a link that showed a 10-1 air ratio, so I provided one for him.

I did have 2 customers of mine swap out older pellet stoves for the Europa.  One swapped out a Bixby and went from 6 tons per year to 4 tons the first year with the Europa during last winter which went on forever.  Another swapped out a 4 year old 56K btu stove from AES and went from 5 tons per year to 3 tons.  Another example, I have a customer in our town that heated a 2200 sf home all of last year on less than 3 tons of fuel.

Of course, I'm a retailer, so I could be lying.  But these are real life experiences.

Gasification on pellets has a very similar result as burning wood in a Fisher stove and then burning wood in an epa certified stove.  Night and Day.

I'll come back and answer questions best I can if folks have any.


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## Delta-T (Nov 4, 2009)

Franks- When last i saw, the 75 had same motors for auger and combustion fan, is it still so? And I believe there were 2 control boards, still same? I thought it was a neat idea, made for easy trouble shooting by swapping boards or motors. They add thermostat to that bad boy yet? Always like the DC motor thing, and the augers under the burn pot. I do recall ours sounding somewhat like a jet when it was running full out. In some circles thats extra cool.


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## Fsappo (Nov 4, 2009)

One control board, much better motors, super quiet.  Sounds like a a very quiet jet when running on full.  I'd say its half as loud as our other pellet stoves.  One board, easy to work on, works excellent on a thermostat


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## Delta-T (Nov 4, 2009)

Super. We carried the stove when it was marketed by FPI (i thinks that was it), and they sent us some that were not built correctly. They gave us the run around for a while before they fessed up and said they knew they had put faulty motors in them. Kinda left a bad taste in our mouths, so we stopped carrying it. Glad to hear they have raised the bar and are making a quality product. When we were runnig corn in it it had this awesome blue spiral column of flame, just a joy to stare at. Pardon me while I reminisce (sp?).


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## MCPO (Nov 4, 2009)

Franks said:
			
		

> doghouse said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dac122 (Nov 5, 2009)

How do you get the Fuel Bed up to temp so it reaches super heat temp:  does it just run at lower efficiency until then, or maybe some kind of electric resistive element?


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## Fsappo (Nov 5, 2009)

You light it with gel.  As the fuel bed heats up, your running an a more normal pellet stove efficiency.  It takes about 25 minutes for the stove to reach it's true gasification properties.  As far as the differences between gasification and typical burn being similar to an old/new wood stove, that is a the proper analogy.  An EPA certified wood stove will burn 30-40 % less wood than the old style stoves.  The Europa will without doubt burn that much less in fuel than a typical "drop the pellets in a pot and blow air on them" Pellet stove.  The difference in the emmisions arent quite the same, but it does burn much cleaner with a much lower flue temp than a typical stove.  It has a lower flue temp with 300 degree air blowing out of the heat exchanger..on 275 degree air at a nice velocity on only 2lbs per hour of fuel.  Where ever you live, if you are curious, try to find someone with the new Paromax stove burning.  Ask them to set it to setting 3 (2lbs per hour) and see the heat that comes out..you'll be a believer.

I was such a doubter 3 years ago when I was introduced to this stove when I felt the heat on setting 3 that I had to run my own feed rate test.  The heat coming out felt like a 40K btu stove on high.  I SWORE to Claude Lapoint that the stove had to be using 4-5 lbs per hour to make that much heat.  Sure enough, on setting 3, gobs of heat and 19.5 hours on a 40lb bag.


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## Fsappo (Nov 5, 2009)

Just realized. Sugar/Pook requested info, it was provided and he never responded to this thread.  I guess when he asks for a link and gets it, that kind of ruins the fun


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## webbie (Nov 5, 2009)

Franks said:
			
		

> Gasification on pellets has a very similar result as burning wood in a Fisher stove and then burning wood in an epa certified stove.  Night and Day.
> 
> I'll come back and answer questions best I can if folks have any.



Franks, I find that a bit misleading...maybe more than a bit!

The fact is that "gasification" is hardly even the proper word to describe most of this stuff - as I once discussed on a podcast with John Gulland. He argues that it is the wrong term for even the boilers - that they are simply downdraft combustion. I agree, although we throw the term around.

It seems as if the first issue here is simply the combustion efficiency of burning pellets in modern space heaters.
My guess would be that most existing Pellet stoves have faily high combustion efficiencies.
Maybe we can check that out with some lab rats. If they had poor combustion efficiency, the result would likely be smoke.

After that we get to heat transfer efficiency and total seasonal or AFUE efficiency. When all these are put together, the end result can vary greatly...of course...so I am not doubting one stove over another. I would guess that the worst model out there might be 50% total efficiency if not totally tuned up perfect, while the best model might be 80% (approx.) in normal operation. That is the difference between burning 3 tons and 5 tons....or something like that!

In any case, I would not agree that all other pellet stoves are like Fishers and that this stove is night and day. This may very well be the best...and highest efficiency, but others run the gamut from poor...to almost as efficient. 

Just trying to clarify for the non-techies. 

I suppose if we really were to talk about gasification, then we would have no flame at all anywhere near the fuel. We would bake the fuel, drive the gases off and burn the gas in another chamber.....using the definition that we are here - most pellet stoves and modern wood stoves would qualify.


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## Fsappo (Nov 5, 2009)

Craig, have you ever seen one of these stoves burn?   Even though the secondary combustion isnt taking place in a seperate chamber, it is "baking" the pellets on an ash bed and there is gasification taking place in the burn tube on top.  Not sure what you would call it aside from gasification.  I emailed the link to this thread to Claude, who invented the stove asking him to chime in.  I may not be answering the technical questions as well as he could.  So you think that there are biomass stoves out there that come anywhere close to a 95% heat exchanger efficiency?

So, those Tarms we used to buy from you back in the 80s, they weren't really wood gasifiers?  Or the wood guns that good ole Dave Oneil built up in Warrensburg..you know, the ones that would explode in your face if you opened the door too fast and dripped creosote out of the cyclone ash seperater..that wasnt gasification?

Also, if the Europa did in fact burn 30-40% less fuel than any other biomass stove marketed, you think my statement of comparison is misleading?

These are sincere questions. I look at the "gamut" as being a lot of stoves of varying heat exchanger efficiencies...then a long gap, then the Europa.


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## dac122 (Nov 5, 2009)

Franks,

FWIW I was doubtful of you claim initially since you cannot get something for nothing.  It is not uncommon in the furnace and boiler industry to not deduct the electrical consumption in AFUE calculations - which can be equated to lost BTUs.  

So I checked the electrical consumption and discovered you use about the same or maybe less power than other brands - certainly not more.  So if indeed you[re reaching that efficiency then hats off to you.


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## webbie (Nov 5, 2009)

Exactly, Franks...those boilers are high efficiency fan forced downdraft burners, not gasifiers in the true sense.

As to baking of wood, etc...my campfire does that too, as well as an open fireplace. What I am saying is that these terms can mislead since there is NOTHING here which is independent of combustion efficiency. Would you agree on that? In other words, one stove with 95% combustion efficiency would be burning the pellets as completely as another, whatever their claims. And one stove of 80% total efficiency would be exactly the same as another....assuming the same test. 

One thing for certain is that ALL the figures are glorified to some extent. What sales or marketing dept. in their right mind would not do so? We advertised the old Tarm boilers as 82% efficient, and they were - when running perfectly, etc.
However, as our friend here nofossil has educated us, we find that we are really lucky if an entire installed system can achieve 60%. So which is the truth? Well, his is.....


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## Fsappo (Nov 5, 2009)

So when Omni(or other indy lab) labs runs a battery of tests and concludes a stove has a 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency using the lower heat value and the manufacturer states this on their website it is misleading.

Also, yes, they are talking about combustion efficiency in all that jargon, but there is other jargon which blabs on and on about the heat exchanger design.  Claude told me that was a large part of why it achieves 95% heat exchanger efficiency.  Again, for me, 35-40% less fuel than a typical stove I have seen proof of.  My writing of this thread was to show Pook/Sugar a link showing a 10-1 air ratio.  

You got plenty of spare time Craig.  Let's set up a test between a Europa and whatever stove out there claims to have a good efficiency rating.  I'll get Claude to donate a stove.  We'll have them both heat equal areas for a month and check the pellet usage at the end.  

I've always wanted to do that, I just dont have a location that would provide equal areas to heat with equal insulation.  So lets do it, promote it as a battle royale!  You can have the rights to the live feed thru your website and making a killing!


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## hoverfly (Nov 5, 2009)

From what pictures I have seen it's imposable to tell where is air injected, how much air to allow gasification and not total combustion at the wood then the gas is separated from the wood with additional air mixed in to allow total combustion of the pyrolysis gas. I am thinking they are using an up draft gasafier but can't prove it.  Sorry for the SP got to got work....!


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## Fsappo (Nov 5, 2009)

I let Claude Lapoint look at the thread.  He sent me this, a test done on a stove I was asked not to name, but it is a very popular model NOT sold in the big box stores, but thru hearth retailers.  I have no idea what this stuff really means, but someone might.  I think we are supposed to compare it to the testing stats on the Europa I posted earlier.  Also, Claudes comments to me:

It all about methods and means
This gentlemen mentioned down draft  that’s one method  but its not the only one t look up gasification in combustion dictionaries 
 Fuel beds need to be  air starved to create gasification therefore an air tight environment to be able to create it.
Our fuel bed temperatures are below 1200 F  to prevent clinkers . The only way to do that is to control air ratio thru the fuel bed. 

First and foremost  the competition should provide their burn analysis so we can  compare apples with apples.

CALCULATION OF STOCIOMETRIC PRODUCTS, ACTUAL PRODUCTS, AND EFFICIENCY
Unit: Model #180-5 Burn Rate: 2.18 Kg/h
Fuel: Wood pellets (B415.1 std values) EPA Exempted
ULTIMATE Dry Calorific Value (MJ/kg) 19.81 ( 8517 BTU/lb)
ANALYSIS (dry basis) Fuel Moisture (% wet basis) 6.3 ( 6.7 % db)
Carbon 48.73 As-Fired C.V. (MJ/kg) 18.56 ( 7980 BTU/lb)
Hydrogen 6.87 Flue Gas Values: % Combustible in Ash: 0
Sulphur 0 % CO2 2.65 from O2: 2.58 CONVERSION FACTORS:
Nitrogen 0 % O2 18.12 from CO2: 18.05 Mj/kg = BTU/lb*.002326
Ash 0.5 % CO 0.07 F = 9/5*C+32 C+ 5/9*(F-32)
Oxygen 43.9 Flue © 208 406 F MC(wb) = MC(db)/(100+MC (db))
Total 100 Amb't © 20 68 F MC(db) = MC(wb)/(100-MC (wb))
LOSSES BTU/lb BTU/lb %
Air & Flue Gas From co2 From o2 dry fuel as fired
% Excess Air 629.53 648.71 DFG 3626 3397 42.57
Comb'n air (Sft3/lb fuel) 550.8 565.3 Fuel H2O 81 76 0.95
Dfg (lb/lb dry fuel) 44.6 45.8 H2 747 700 8.77
Tfg (lb/lb dry fuel) 45.3 46.5 CO 127 119 0.21
Dfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel) 967.9 993.4 Comb. In ash 0
Dfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel) 549.6 564.1 Total Loss 4581 4292 52.50
Tfg (Aft3/lb dry fuel) 991.8 1017.3 % Efficiency 47.5
Tfg (Sft3/lb dry fuel) 563.2 577.7
CO (lb/lb dry fuel) 0.031 0.032
Vol fraction H2O in flue 0.024 0.023
Products of Combustion at Stociometric
STOCIOMETRIC VALUES lb/lb Sft3/lb
Stociometric Air Req'd (lb/lb dry fuel) dry fuel dry fuel
Carbon (32/12.011*.01*C) 1.298 Stociometric CO2 1.786 14.57
Hydrogen (8/1.008-.01-H) 0.545 Stociometric N2 4.663 59.75
Sulphur (32/32.066*.066*.01*S) 0.000 Stociometric SO2 0.000 0.00
Total 1.844 Total dfg 6.448 74.32
Less )2 in fu 0.439 Wet products
O2 from air 1.405 H2O (reaction) 0.614 12.23
Associated N2 (76.85/23.15*.02) 4.663 H2O (fuel) 0.067 1.34
Total dry air: 6.067 Total flue gas 7.129 87.89
Stociometric % CO2: 1

From what I understand, the typical heat exchanger efficiency of this stove is 47.5%  Does any of that make sense?


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## Fsappo (Nov 5, 2009)

Hoverfly said:
			
		

> From what pictures I have seen it's imposable to tell where is air injected, how much air to allow gasification and not total combustion at the wood then the gas is separated from the wood with additional air mixed in to allow total combustion of the pyrolysis gas. I am thinking they are using an up draft gasafier but can't prove it. Sorry for the SP got to got work....!



The pellets are burning in a tube, about 12" tall. The ash bed is burning at a relatively low temp about 8" down. The air is preheated thru an airtight chamber around the burn tube and injected into the gases as they rise off the pellet fuel bed. The top 8" of this burn tube are lined with holes where the air shoots into the smoke. The end result is blue and yellow shoots of flame similar to what you would see coming out of the air tube holes in an EPA Certified non cat wood stove. For whatever reason, the gases and flame spiral, created a kind of blue to yellow flame tornado


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## Fsappo (Nov 5, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> Note: Net efficiency rests on combustion efficiency and heat transfer efficiency.
> 
> 
> this is vague . why doesnt it simply say "heat transfer efficiency"? plain and simple , to the point! to assess the heat delivery into the room would require testing within a calorimetric room which i dont see mentioned. i dont doubt the gassification of the europa is more efficient but have seen problems with older models which burned corn and pellets which i think was discontinued . is the original mfr. still producing this jewel or has it been transferred to another co.?              maggie



Original guy is making them again, after a brief stint of FPI trying to make them...this is why I proposed a test.  You want to see which horse is faster, as Claude says...you have a race

Criminy, I just tried to reset my password and it gave me a new screen name...now I have no sig and 7 posts to my name.  I guess I'm gonna have to fix that


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## sinnian (Nov 5, 2009)

I know a couple of people who have an Europa to heat there whole house (both about 2200 sf), who use less pellets then other people I know who heat similar size and types of houses.  Also, they clean their Europas less.

I kinda wish I had one, rather then the pellet boiler.


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## hoverfly (Nov 6, 2009)

Well I hope some day they make a smaller one like my Mini, I am all ways looking to save money.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> http://www.google.com/patents?id=2xEJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=6,336,449#v=onepage&q=&f=false



Wow, Sugar, I never saw that document.  Very interesting stuff.  Thanks


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## MCPO (Nov 6, 2009)

sinnian said:
			
		

> I know a couple of people who have an Europa to heat there whole house (both about 2200 sf), who use less pellets then other people I know who heat similar size and types of houses.  .
> 
> .



I`ve read a few threads right here on this site how some folks heat their 2500 sq ft houses comfortably with one pellet stove burning 2-3 tons of pellets a year.  Yes , exaggerations tend to run high sometimes but the undisputed facts remain that clearly shows how many BTU`s are in a ton of pellets and how many BTU`s are required to heat an average home. It`s always hard to believe claims that aren`t within those parameters.

As Franks has explained , the Europa is specifically designed to extract the gases from the pellets for a more efficient burn and when this method is used with cordwood it absolutely makes good sense since it often  saves as much as 30-40% fuel and decreases contaminants in the air. 
  However pellets are not cordwood and is a significantly different product that is burned much differently than cord wood in a wood stove. You just aren`t going to have the amount of unburnt gases going up the flue as in a wood stove.
 If in fact the Europa method does manage to extract a bit more of whatever amount of gases are left after a typical conventional pellet stove burn could it really amount to 30-40%?  I`d be a bit more willing to accept something like 10-15% but anything more would have to be considered revolutionary and pretty hard to fathom and I would simply have to take it as typical manufacturer brochure advertising speak.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Gio said:
			
		

> sinnian said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly Gio.  It just did NOT Make sense to me, until I spoke to customers telling me of pellet usage going from 6-4 tons and 5-3 tons and me clocking the feed rate at 2 lbs per hour, taking heat readings against a Regency GF55 and an AES Countryside Stove.  The Europa at 2lb per hour of fuel heats like a typical stove using 3 or 4 lbs per hour.  I swear it's true.  I also swear its nearly impossible to convince folks over the phone or on an internet forum.  But when a customer comes into my showroom, if they believe that the two stoves are running at the same feed rate, they are AMAZED at the heat difference.  Doesnt mean they're gonna plunk down 5K..but they are believers after that.  

Again, this is why I propose a test, side by side with any other stove out there...the only real way to see how the claims stack up


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## webbie (Nov 6, 2009)

Chances are that what will be exposed is how BAD some stoves are, rather than how good this one is!

I'm reading an entire book on Thermodynamics and it is a neat subject, but the basic remain that every process known for extracting heat loses some up the chimney. In the case of a car, it is ut the tailpipe - in a nuclear reactor it is as the steam in the cooling towers, etc.

Any way you slice or dice it, the most that you can extract from wood is in the low 80's....in the field. That's my opinion. I don't doubt that this stove does that. As I mentioned before, if this stove is 85% and another 55%, this stove would use 2 tons to 3 tons in the other one. 

It is HIGHLY doubtful that other top-notch pellet stoves on the market are less than 65% efficient, which might make this one use 1/4 less pellets, or 3 tons instead of 4 tons.

The fancy term "gasify" is just another word, in this case, for FLAME. If the particulates are low and the stack temp fairly low, etc....then ANY Pellet Stove is doing much of the same. The gases either get burned or expelled, there is nowhere else for them to go.

Since the makers and proponents of this model must have access to sophisticated test equipment, it might behoove them to pick up a couple of the competitors stoves and compare them....and then publish the results. Or, fork up some money to Omni or Intertek to do so.....


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## webbie (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok, I propose a test.........

If I can find a lab or engineer to do so........

1. Franks provides one of these stoves.
2. We pick two decent highly claimed other models.

We compare them in a scientific test.

IF this stove turns out being 35% or more efficient than the next in line (say 80% to 59%), then I provide $5,000 worth of free advertising to the manufacturer.....besides the free stuff they get from the test......
IF the stove turns out NOT to be that much more efficient than the others, I get to keep the stove.

This is not a 100% valid offer, just putting it out there to see if Franks is interested......


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

They did, Craig.  I posted the results from another stove further up on the thread.  Claude just asked me not to mention the name, but it rhymes with Madrafire.  
I'm just kidding, its not a quad, but it is a VERY popular stove.  Claude has bought a few competitors stove and paid to have them tested.  Your right, what it proved to him at least is other pellet stoves using biomass are registering 45-55% heat exchanger eff. when using the lower heat value.

Craig, wanna try out one of these stoves at your place for free for a few months?  Claude has a loaner we've been sending out to prospective dealers to use.  Free, Craig...freee...preciouses


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Ok, I propose a test.........
> 
> If I can find a lab or engineer to do so........
> 
> ...



I'd have to run this by Claude. I have seen a 35% reduction in fuel usage, so I'm not sure how that would work out in efficiencies. If you get to keep the stove, will you use it? Would you post your thoughts and chronicle the test to keep folks in the loop on the forums?

Win or lose, it would be a win for me personally. It will help validate the claims I make to my customers, or cause me to make a bunch of apologies! I also think it would be a VERY interesting way to educate other stove makers on how to make stoves that will reduce our biomass usage. (Not sure if Claude wants that to happen or not, he may enjoy his niche)

I'll be forwarding this to him now and see.

Gentlemen...start your engines!


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## Delta-T (Nov 6, 2009)

i may be able to get my hands on a 10 years old whitfield cascade to thow into the test. think the Europa can top that? huh? do ya? (yeah, prolly it can). But someones got to root for the underdog right?


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Delta-T said:
			
		

> i may be able to get my hands on a 10 years old whitfield cascade to thow into the test. think the Europa can top that? huh? do ya? (yeah, prolly it can). But someones got to root for the underdog right?



I love underdogs!

300 Spartans with the armies of 1000 nations descending upon them. "Remember this day boys, because it will be yours forever!"


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## sinnian (Nov 6, 2009)

For what it is worth, there seems to be very little heat going up the flue on my friends' Europas.  I have touched them when they are blazing, and I felt nothing.  When I touch the flue of my PB150 when it is blazing, I definitely can feel the heat going up.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

well, your also dealing with 130K btus going out that flue.  If you want to be amazed, dont touch the pipe on a burning europa, go outside and feel the exhaust itself.  Very little air moving due to the 10-1 ratio and super low air temps coming out in relation to the 280-300 degree air coming out of the heat exchanger tubes.


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## MCPO (Nov 6, 2009)

sinnian said:
			
		

> For what it is worth, there seems to be very little heat going up the flue on my friends' Europas.  I have touched them when they are blazing, and I felt nothing.  When I touch the flue of my PB150 when it is blazing, I definitely can feel the heat going up.



The testimony (above) is definitely encouraging and lends credible support to "Franks" claims of more heat with less pellets especially *if* it uses the standard type PL vent. I mean any stove that significantly limits the amount of heat exiting the flue while blazing away has to be doing something better but I don`t see any connection to why a cooler vent is caused by a better combustion system , (supposedly as in the Europa.)
 Sure, I can hold my hand on the exhaust vent on my P-38 but only when it`s set on #1 and #2  (lowest settings) and the stove isn`t exactly blazing but on anything higher the whole exhaust vent gets considerably hotter and not something I want to lay my hands on.

 Regardless, I still think any net efficiency superiority or cooler vent pipe in one high end pellet stove compared against another high end one would be found in the design and materials of the heat exchanger and not so much to do with the combustion process . I`d really like to see a diagram of the heat exchanger system on the Europa.
 The combustion process designs already used in most pellet stoves are already quite good with little wiggle room for improvement aside from ash/clinker handling .  And being that hot operating flues aren`t required any major R&D should be concentrated on heat transfer efficiency instead.  I find it a total shame to see what looks like archaic and blatantly simple designed heat exchangers fitted to such a rather high tech device. 
 Personally I think all pellet stove makers (maybe except the Europa?) ought to have designed a better heat exchanger system long ago.   Far too much heat goes up the flue with all the ones I`ve seen running.
 It would absolutely be a priority for me in any future pellet stove purchase.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> was the humidity content of the combustion air taken into consideration? with such a refined process as gassification i think that might be a significant factor...maggie



No idea Maggie.  I have Claude watching this thread. I'll let you know if he has considered this.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Gio said:
			
		

> sinnian said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And for Sugar as well..  The heat exchanger tubes stay clean enough where the is no provision for mechanically cleaning them.  Once per month with a brush on the end of a vacuum is all I do.  I just do it when I turn the stove off monthly to clean the ash pan


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> Franks said:
> 
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To me as well.  I spent 20 minutes on the phone with him yesterday trying to explain how to create a log in.  I am cutting and pasting the link to the responses for him.  He is a combustion genius...but internet..he needs a little learnin maybe


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## MCPO (Nov 6, 2009)

This link here pictures/explains a lot and gives most credit ( 35% increased heat output) to the combustiion process.
 And claims 84% efficient heat transfer.
 But as we all know, the manufacturers brochures are rarely if ever conservative.


http://www.paromax.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4&Itemid=11&lang=en


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Gio said:
			
		

> This link here pictures/explains a lot and gives most credit ( 35% increased heat output) to the combustiion process.
> And claims 84% efficient heat transfer.
> But as we all know, the manufacturers brochures are rarely if ever conservative.
> 
> ...



As I mentioned very clearly in an earlier post, that is a mix of old info and new info.  There is also a link to the LABS TEST REPORT that shows 94.9% efficiency.  Unless your accusing Claude of falsafying a document.


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## MCPO (Nov 6, 2009)

If you look at the compared efficiencies of the Paromax (Europa) stove 86% and a non certified stove 70.5. you see a 20% difference (their chart) but you and I have to assume one figure is stretched one way and the other another way for enhancement purposes.
 Anyway, the gap would have to be significantly narrowed using a EPA certified pellet stove .


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Well Craig, Claude gladly accepted the challenge.  Here was his response:

From: Claude Lapointe [mailto:claude@paromax.ca] 
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 1:20 PM
To: fsappo
Subject: RE: lookie

"Were on  for the challenge 
One condition 
We use an authorized combustion lab and we keep our trade secrets amongst ourselves.
I can easily improve their performances on these standard units."

So, the ball is in your court.  I think by doing this all parties would be doing a great service to our industry.  So, say the word and I'll have a stove shipped to you within a few days.  It will give you some time to get used to it prior to the testing.

Pick whatever mainstream 2 stoves you feel have the highest efficiency claim. (dont bother with the FPI GF55 with a 80%+ claim, I have one next to the Europa in my showroom.  It just wouldnt be fair)  Can even have our fellow forum members vote on who the other 2 applicants should be.

This is more exciting than opening kickoff for a football game.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Gio said:
			
		

> If you look at the compared efficiencies of the Paromax (Europa) stove 86% and a non certified stove 70.5. you see a 20% difference (their chart) but you and I have to assume one figure is stretched one way and the other another way for enhancement purposes.
> Anyway, the gap would have to be significantly narrowed using a EPA certified pellet stove .



94.9%  anyhow, it's a non issue.  There will always be a hand full of people saying someone is lying.  Let's see if Craig goes for the race and I wont have to keep posting" Claude isnt lying" comments.  The proof, as they say, will be in the pudding.


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## MCPO (Nov 6, 2009)

Franks said:
			
		

> Gio said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hold on now! Exactly where did I accuse anyone of falsefying a documet?  What I wrote was that sales brochures are rarely if ever conservative. Obviously their truths almost always have a lot of wiggle room in them.  You just need to be aware and not take everything for face value.
 For example: an independant lab burn test paid for by a manufacturer could easily have consisted of using 10 different pellets with 10 different results under 10 different conditions purposely done to select the result which would best favor the product`s actual capability.  I`m sure this is sop with many industries.


Added later:  Franks , I`m certainly rooting in your corner in hopes you can somehow convince me and everyone else that there is a significantly better product out there. 
 The pending test in encouraging too.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok, I was being sensitive!  This would be a very interesting event for sure.  I bet Craig is munching on granola wondering if he should do it or not


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## anka (Nov 6, 2009)

I think it will be an interesting comparison. Maunufacturers should be doing this anyways. There must be greater efficiencies we can expect from pellet heat as the market booms as it currently is. The Europa sounds promising... I would like to see on in the body of a P68 though, cause the styling is not a selling point at this time. Excellent thread! 
Anka


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

anka said:
			
		

> I think it will be an interesting comparison. Maunufacturers should be doing this anyways. There must be greater efficiencies we can expect from pellet heat as the market booms as it currently is. The Europa sounds promising... I would like to see on in the body of a P68 though, cause the styling is not a selling point at this time. Excellent thread!
> Anka



Yeah, he has been hearing that for years.  That stove aint gonna win any beauty contests.  We'll keep hammering on him


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## Delta-T (Nov 6, 2009)

Franks said:
			
		

> Gio said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I LOVE pudding. This will be like THUNDERDOME! 2 stove enter, 1 stove leave! Master blaster runs bartertown.


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Ok, tell Craig exactly what would satisfy you and pook and if he decides to go ahead with it, he will take it under advisement


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

It was developed by Claude Lapoint and his company , Dell Point.  The manufacturing rights were sold to FPI in order to increase distribution thru their existing dealer network.  With FPI in control, the quality went down the pooper. Claude approached the other members of Dellpoint to see if they wanted to buy back the rights and go back to making a quality product.  They did not want to.  Claude formed a new corp, called Paromax, after the names of his children, Pat, Roxanne and Maxine and started producing the stove again as a family.

When FPI had the product, they could not get their version of the stove to burn corn.  Instead of finding out why, they just put a big X thru the corn button and sold it pellet only.

I've got an original dell point Europa that is 5 years old.  The burn pots NEVER in 5 years has clogged for any customer that I have been in contact with, and we have had ZERO burn pots need to be replaced.  It's also not magic.  It's a tube with holes in it.

No clinkers with pellets, virtually no clinkers with corn, nothing to scrap or vacuum.  Just empty the ash pan.  Thats 5 years of experience.  Maybe these pots only last 5.5 years and will all poop the fan in 6 months.  I'm guessing not.

The stove ships with a pellet pot and a corn pot and burns both fuels very nicely.  Doesnt Pook have a dealer close by where he can go take a look at one of these?


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## MCPO (Nov 6, 2009)

I just talked to a dealership located about 60 miles away who evidently has had one in stock for a while and according to his office girl he wants to discount it to get rid of it . I didn`t discuss price. The reason stated he is into the Enviro brand.  I was hoping he had one running in the showroom but no dice. The one he has is new and unused. He said to come over and look at it and bring a truck.
 I`d want to see one in operation first.


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## smoke show (Nov 6, 2009)

sub'd for interest/entertainment


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## Fsappo (Nov 6, 2009)

Gio said:
			
		

> I just talked to a dealership located about 60 miles away who evidently has had one in stock for a while and according to his office girl he wants to discount it to get rid of it . I didn`t discuss price. The reason stated he is into the Enviro brand.  I was hoping he had one running in the showroom but no dice. The one he has is new and unused. He said to come over and look at it and bring a truck.
> I`d want to see one in operation first.



I'd make sure it was NOT one of the ones made by FPI.  If it is, dont bother.  If it was one of the older Dell Point models or newer Paromax models, ask them if they will unpack it and burn it for you if they want you to buy it.

From what it sounds like, and if they are a Regency dealer, they had the Regency experience with it, are disgusted and may not even be aware that the original people are back making it.

Not a knock on FPI, I LOVE their wood and gas products.  They just dont make pellet stoves.  Even now, their GF55 is made by Enviro


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## Fsappo (Nov 7, 2009)

Still waiting to see if Craig is gonna go for this


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## MCPO (Nov 7, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> i inquired 3 ? yrs ago from local dealer who discounted [40%?] a showroom model which heated the place & when i asked him what he heated with after the europa he mentioned a different stove. thereafter i learned the combo unit was replaced by a pellet only unit by whatever manufacturer. still, the dealer opted not to heat his place with the europa, thus i figured the system might be problematic over time  as per my prior reasonings. kinda reminds me of the story of the rabbit & the hare...maggie... the essence of the system is the patented burnpot i think



Could they be too pricey and therefore slow selling for the average dealer? 
 I found some bad press from a user or two at Iburncorn.com but that could have been the older units.
 It seems to be a mystery product. 
 The technology employed in it`s burnpot method is interesting for sure but it isn`t rocket science or anything new. It does make me wonder why others haven`t employed it. Could be the benefit isn`t worth the cost, I don`t really know.
 For about 8 yrs I used a European (Franco- Belge) catalytic oil stove in my finished basement . Basically it was just a simple pot burner that #2 fuel oil dripped into and burned dirty but as that dirty smoke rose up thru a stainless steel configuation (series of 6" high blades) it produced a round blue flame identical to that on a gas cook stove and was absolutely smoke/soot free.  I suspect the technology to be similar regardless of what fuel is burned.
 However I always felt that it used a bit more oil than the zoned baseboard heat would have but I like the ambience of a stove. Prior to that I burned cordwood down there but thats not gonna happen again.


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## MCPO (Nov 8, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> had to bump this so other stovemakers may respond to the air ratio claims which do make sense.
> we got a replacement exhaust blower for an old 25pdvc & it was a different,bigger,more wattage motor. englander ASSURED US IT WAS TESTED & FINE BUT NOW WE WONDER IF THE EXTRA BLOW DIDNT HELP englander QUALIFY AS epa approved due to extra air & 35-1 ratio?....maggie



I`m puzzled. The dell Pont uses a very low 8/10-1 ratio , and exceeds EPA.  Yet, you wonder if the new larger exhaust blower with 35-1 ratio helps your Englander qualify?


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## Fsappo (Nov 9, 2009)

Craig!  Are you gonna do the Biomass Smackdown challenge?


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## MCPO (Nov 9, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> Gio said:
> 
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> 
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## Fsappo (Nov 9, 2009)

Right, the way I understand it, the 35-1 air ratiot allows these stoves to be EPA Exempt.  What throws me for a loop, is the Regency GF55 is listed as EPA Certified.  If it is based on efficiency, without lab equipment here, it just doesnt add up.  Just like I wouldnt need testing equipment to know I was driving in a Ford Focus and then in a Ford GT.  A nice 3 way comparison will be a good deed for our industry and for our customers out there.


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## Fsappo (Nov 9, 2009)

Just spend 48 hours using a mix of switch grass pellets and hardwood PA pellets to see how it effected the burn.  Same heat exchanger temps, ash extraction had to be brought up 2 notches.  More ash, and a dirtier glass.  I'd be thrilled if we can get that stove dialed in to burn switch grass pellets 24/7


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## jtakeman (Nov 10, 2009)

Franks said:
			
		

> Just spend 48 hours using a mix of switch grass pellets and hardwood PA pellets to see how it effected the burn.  Same heat exchanger temps, ash extraction had to be brought up 2 notches.  More ash, and a dirtier glass.  I'd be thrilled if we can get that stove dialed in to burn switch grass pellets 24/7



IMO, You should be able to. I have an Enviro Omega and it will run switch grass no problem. I ran mine for a week on switch grass. Except for dirty glass you would think it was burning pellets. Granted Bad ones, But besides the mounds of gritty ash and raisin sized stones, It throw nice heat. Never stirred the pot or had to even open the door. I just filled the hopper.

Sounds like they need to have a stirrer or mixer in the burn pot. 

How well does it burn corn?

jay


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## MountainStoveGuy (Nov 10, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> Gio said:
> 
> 
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pook?


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## jtakeman (Nov 10, 2009)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> sugar said:
> 
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No it's maggie. ;-)


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## Fsappo (Nov 10, 2009)

jtakeman said:
			
		

> Franks said:
> 
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Burning the grass pellets are easy.  Getting the settings dialed in to it is doing it at 95% efficiency just takes tinkering with the settings to handle the differences between batches.  I have an AES Countryside with a stirrer that could burn gravel, as well as all different biomass using the brute force method of alot of air thru the burn pot and a the stirrer just mashing stuff up.  My goal is to burn grass pellets via "gasification" even though thats the wrong term.

Now, the Europa burns corn like a champ.  Blue flame, no clinkers..instead of emptying the ash pan once a month, like on pellets, I need to do it every week to 10 days.  A small matter.


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## Fsappo (Nov 10, 2009)

sugar said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
> 
> 
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Sheesh, your a bit of a mad scientist.  You'd get along great with Claude.  Very interesting experiment your ran there


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## jtakeman (Nov 10, 2009)

Franks said:
			
		

> jtakeman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Love to see that stove in action!   
 Get them to make a Furnace that allows for ducting to be connected to it. I might consider it. I have to have it in the basement.


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## Fsappo (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm tryin I'm tryin. He wants to release a smaller stove and the insert first.  May be 2 or 3 years before the furnaces and boilers come out


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## MCPO (Nov 10, 2009)

Is maggie taken over Pooks body? Maybe I`m a bit naive but it just occurred to me that Pook han`t been around since maggie surfaced.


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## Fsappo (Nov 10, 2009)

It's pretty obvious to a lot of folks, Gio.  But pook is behaving for now so I guess the PTB are letting it slide


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## MasterOfFire (Dec 19, 2009)

Whats the air to fuel ration on the greenfire 55 stove? I own one and from what i understand it is EPA certified not compliant like most other pellet stoves.In this thread it was mentioned that the dellpoint stove is the only epa certified stove in the industry? Where do i find a list of certified stoves? I have had the stove for 1 full heating season so far and all is great. Thanks


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## Fsappo (Dec 19, 2009)

I'll try to find out what the ratio is on Monday when Regency opens.  The GF-55 is a great stove.  They do have it listed as EPA Certified.  I can tell you that the GF55 doesnt "appear" to be any more efficient than any other of the typical pellet stoves out there.


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## MasterOfFire (Dec 19, 2009)

Great thanks,  what do you mean it doesn't appear to be anymore efficient than any other pellet stove. What does it mean than if it is certified instead of compliant? I was on the epa web site and it shows it at 80 something percent efficient vs the dellpoint at 86 does that mean that?
thanks


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## MCPO (Dec 19, 2009)

MasterOfFire said:
			
		

> Great thanks,  what do you mean it doesn't appear to be anymore efficient than any other pellet stove. What does it mean than if it is certified instead of compliant? I was on the epa web site and it shows it at 80 something percent efficient vs the dellpoint at 86 does that mean that?
> thanks



With regards to your second question as best as I know is that most pellet stoves are exempt from EPA certification since most if not all of them fall well below the minimum emissions which is  7.5 grams per hr for non cat and 4.1 for cat stoves. 
 Pellet stoves makers can of course request that their pellet stove be tested to meet the qualifications for EPA certification standards and therefore be listed as EPA certified.
Again, being EPA certified doesn`t mean anything with regards to net efficiency. A pellet stove with the lowest emissions output having a so-so heat exchanger can be less efficient than one with higher emissions and a good heat exchanger.
 Personally I`m impressed with the Dell Point technology myself  but be aware there are other pellet stoves that meet or exceed their low emission output. Check out this list below:

http://www.oregon.gov/ENERGY/CONS/RES/tax/docs/RETC_PelletStoves.pdf


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## ADVA (Feb 28, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> You light it with gel.
> I was such a doubter 3 years ago when I was introduced to this stove when I felt the heat on setting 3 that I had to run my own feed rate test.  The heat coming out felt like a 40K btu stove on high.  I SWORE to Claude Lapoint that the stove had to be using 4-5 lbs per hour to make that much heat.  Sure enough, on setting 3, gobs of heat and 19.5 hours on a 40lb bag.



I have a HARMAN Advance.
Great stove.
What would you estimate in percentage savings &/or pellet consumption.
I am currently heating my shop with the Harman.

However I need a stove that I do not have to light.
Is this company considering the possible incorporation of an igniter for the Europa?


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## Fsappo (Mar 1, 2010)

I would estimage a fuel savings of 30-40%  There is no electronic ignition in this stove and they do not plan on adding one.  It greatly increases the start up time and the time burning at less than peak performace.  To reach such ultra high efficiencies, the sacrifice is auto ignite.  When working in thermostat mode the stove cycles between heat settings.


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## BDPVT (Mar 1, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> I would estimage a fuel savings of 30-40% There is no electronic ignition in this stove and they do not plan on adding one. It greatly increases the start up time and the time burning at less than peak performace. To reach such ultra high efficiencies, the sacrifice is auto ignite. When working in thermostat mode the stove cycles between heat settings.


Franks, where do you get your estimate of 30-40% fuel savings from? Maybe true when compared to a non-cat wood stove! The Europa is rated by the manufacturer at 86% net efficiency, but any EPA certified pellet stove is at least 78% net efficiency. Many pellet stoves have been tested at over 80%. Your estimate defies logic and seems to go beyond scientific fact. If true, it would revolutionize the way we use energy. Imagine if we all could save 30-40% on our heating costs. Show me some hard evidence and I will be the first in line with a check in hand.


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## Fsappo (Mar 1, 2010)

If you look at the net heat loss on the Europa compared to a typical stove, the math shows it (14% heat loss for Europa compared to 55% on typical combustion pellet stoves)  Not being able to run a true side by side test and waiting for Mr Webmaster to accept our challenge of giving him a free stove to test in a lab of his choosing, I go by customer feedback.  Replaced a Bixby with a Europa and the customer saved about 2 tons of fuel per year and same results with a customer swapping out a Magnum Countryside.

Claude, the inventor says it's all there in black and white, the fuel savings.  It all looks like numbers and jargon to me.  So aside from what I see in the field and in my showroom, I can only guestimate.

We need someone that has used and logged fuel usage on a stove for the past few years to swap out with a Europa and test the usage difference, or run some side by side tests.

I think the proof needs to be in the net result to the homeowner..not in a paper filled with funny symbols.  

What I proposed a number of times and probably further up in this thread is taking a Europa, and any other the other typical combustion pellet stoves and put them in a 3-4000 square foot building that is divided in half.  Run both stoves on thermostats set at 70 for a month and see how much each stove burns.  How else can you get a real side by side comparison?

I just dont have an empty facility that large that I could build a wall down the middle of.  I'm all for other ideas.

So until then, BDPVT the hard proof will have to wait.  I can feel comfortable making this claim to my customers, because the ones who did replace older stoves saw the fuel savings and the ones who are starting from scratch are using much less pellets than I would normally claim they would need.  For example:
A customer wants to buy a 45,000 Btu Regency GF55 to heat 1500 square feet and asks how many pellets they would need.  I would tell them maybe 4-5 tons depending on the X factors.  Same situation and someone wants to buy a Europa and asks how many pellets they would need..I'll tell them 2-3 tons.  I have yet to sell a Europa to a customer who has used more than 3 tons and have quite a few folks heating 1500-2000 sf.

Like you, I would like to see a true side by side comparison.  Claude will donate a stove to the cause, we just need the proper facility and other stoves to compare it to.

What are you currently using, heating how much area, for how many years and how much fuel do you average per year?  You may be a good candidate, but I would trust Webby more.  I've known him for 25+ years.  Rumor has it, he used to change my diapers.


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## BDPVT (Mar 1, 2010)

Franks, this argument seems like it will never end LOL ! I must warn you that some years ago I worked for Omni Enviromental and probably understand the "funny numbers" as well as anyone. During my time there, we tested numerous pellet stoves for EPA certification. Many of those stoves are still on the market today. There are a lot of crazy numbers flying around here but the most meaningful number for the consumer is overall net efficiency. Net efficiency is the amount of heat energy transferred to the room compared to the amount contained in the fuel. Simply stated , it's how much fuel can you expect to use to heat a given space. For example, the Europa has 34000 BTU's input at 4lbs/hour and 86%net efficiency=29,240BTU's output. The Enviro inputs 35,000 BTU's at 4.2lbs/ hour at 83.5% net efficiency= 29,225 BTU's output. So please explain how the Europa uses 30-40% less fuel to obtain a similar output than the Enviro Empress? It just doesn't add up.
I have looked at all the data you have supplied and even reviewed the Paromax patent looking for some miracle. Granted the Europa is an innovative design, but bottom line is that it seems to be only slightly more efficient than a conventional 35:1 EPA certified pellet stove.


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## ADVA (Mar 1, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> I would estimage a fuel savings of 30-40%  There is no electronic ignition in this stove and they do not plan on adding one.  It greatly increases the start up time and the time burning at less than peak performace.  To reach such ultra high efficiencies, the sacrifice is auto ignite.  When working in thermostat mode the stove cycles between heat settings.



Frank,
Is the 30-40% savings on a typical old Pellet Stove?
I believe the HARMAN Advance is 78%-(on low side).
So say 80%.
With the Europa at 95% respectively. Gives about a savings of 18.8%.
Pretty impressive & if the stove would cycle to keep the thermostat temp.
That is great-"ONLY IF"-it never shuts down unless runs out of Pellets.

I cannot be bothered with the headache of I am away & snowed in & my stove goes out & the pipes freeze.
Because the stove would not hold the minimum burn rate even if temp in the house went above the thermostat setting.

If it has this feature please let me know & I will then start shopping around.

I believe the way in which the Europa is tested is for an overall efficiency.
I see it draws 80 Watts I believe.
Please confirm.

My HARMAN Advance "SAYS" it draws 275 Watts.
I tested it on a "KILAWATT-EZ METER" & it only draws 109W-blower on high & 153W- Watts blower on high & Auger running.
Blower on low-74W. Blower on low & Auger running-108W.
So "IF" the Advance was given an overall rating based upon the 275 Watts.
It should be revised & would thereby greatly increase its efficiency rating.

However there may be a transformer drawing an unspecified number of Watts the KILAWATT-EZ meter does not pick up.
I do not know all these facts...
But I would like to know...


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## Fsappo (Mar 1, 2010)

No warning needed, my friend.  In fact, you should be able to help me with this.  What I see is the end results.  Have you ever seen the Europa in person?  What you should do is stop out to NY and watch what it does on 2 lbs per hour.  Now, if the enviro has a 55% heat loss, what basis do they have for listing a 83.5 net efficiency?  Thats the part that I don't get.  Claude is measuring his "net" based on whats not going out the vent.  If it's not going out the vent, it needs to go someplace, right?  Did I ever email you the documentation of comparisons so you can view it?  I will if you PM me your email address.  Maybe you can decipher it and explain it better here.

You and no one else have ever commented on the "real life results" test.  Wouldnt you agree that if I am seeing these results in the field, that it would warrant doing a side by side comparison as I described in my previous post?  It's almost as if folks are nervous about learning the truth.  No one has even said "well, sure Frank, we should compare them side by side in a contest of heat vs fuel used, but I dont want to do it"

How else can we show ourselves what these stoves really heat based on LBs per hour of fuel?  It's like giving a MPG rating on a car based on lab tests without putting x gallons in and driving it to prove what the lab says.

I should probably push for a government grant to do the study.  Hell, they spend millions studying woodpecker populations, why not thru a mill my way to see if there is a way we could use 30% less biomass as a country..or planet?

Please, lets keep the dialogue open, I'm hoping for a way to prove/disprove the technology instead of answering "prove it" posts.  My customers can't all be fibbing to me..or could they?


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## ADVA (Mar 1, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> How else can we show ourselves what these stoves really heat based on LBs per hour of fuel?  It's like giving a MPG rating on a car based on lab tests without putting x gallons in and driving it to prove what the lab says.
> 
> I should probably push for a government grant to do the study.  Hell, they spend millions studying woodpecker populations, why not thru a mill my way to see if there is a way we could use 30% less biomass as a country..or planet?
> 
> Please, lets keep the dialogue open, I'm hoping for a way to prove/disprove the technology instead of answering "prove it" posts.  My customers can't all be fibbing to me..or could they?



How about finding someone with a large walk in freezer.
Make sure the walk in freezer is in a temperature controlled room.
Set the temp to a constant for every stove you put in there.
Say 10 degrees.
Then put each stove in there & set it for say 80 degrees connected to a thermometer/embedded in a block of epoxy embedded/flush in the floor in a corner.
Better yet have 4-one in each corner.
Fill the hopper up set the burn rate always say to 4lbs per hour for each stove tested.
See how much fuel it burns up to heat the walk in fridge from 10-80 degrees-(after each thermometer reached the 80 degree mark.
Then test each stove at say 2lbs per hour.

However you would have to cross out the variables.
1-Length/Diameter of stove exhaust pipe.
2-Length/Diameter of stove inlet pipe.
3-Pellet/Fuel consistancy.
Maybe you could get a real consistant product that has low ash & burns well in all stoves.
Buy a few tons.
Mix every bag together in a say a cement mixer for a few turns.
Sift out the fines.
4-?-unknown...
5-?-unknown...
6-?-unknown...


Wait a few days letting the walk in freezer cool the insulation/floor etc. back to it's constant temp at 10 degrees before testing the next stove.
Then repeat the test in backwards sequence of stove tested.

BTW-
The above test method is Len B's Idea.
If need be can be protected under my corporation.
Dated the post date & I have first rights to being partners for a grant or patent etc.


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## BDPVT (Mar 2, 2010)

Franks, I completely agree that any new technology that saves 30-40% energy would be big news. But you seem to be the only guy making such claims. Odd that the energy industry and media are not all over this. Even the Paromax web site does not support your claim. See below:

Type of Stove
Net Efficiency (%)
Conventional wood stove
54%
Catalytic wood stove
68%
Non-certified pellet stove
33.4% to 70.5%
Paromax Certified pellet stove
86%
Masonary heater
54% to 65%

According to Paromax, the 30-40% gain is compared to non-cat wood stoves. As I have stated earlier, compare apples to apples and the differences between the Europa and any other EPA Certified pellet stove is only 2-6%.... conveniently left off their list. You made the claim so I think you have a responsibility to prove it.
 Sorry Franks, but I have many years of  experience  testing and evaluating this kind of stuff and those are the facts as I see them.


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## BDPVT (Mar 2, 2010)

Franks, I completely agree that any new technology that saves 30-40% energy would be big news. But you seem to be the only guy making such claims. Odd that the energy industry and media are not all over this. Even the Paromax web site does not support your claim. See below:

Type of Stove
Net Efficiency (%)
Conventional wood stove
54%
Catalytic wood stove
68%
Non-certified pellet stove
33.4% to 70.5%
Paromax Certified pellet stove
86%
Masonary heater
54% to 65%

According to Paromax, the 30-40% gain is compared to non-cat wood stoves. As I have stated earlier, compare apples to apples and the differences between the Europa and any other EPA Certified pellet stove is only 2-6%.... conveniently left off their list. You made the claim so I think you have a responsibility to prove it.
 Sorry Franks, but I have many years of  experience  testing and evaluating this kind of stuff and those are the facts as I see them.


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## summit (Mar 2, 2010)

I also think that heat exchanger surface area must have alot to do w/ overall eff%'s... The Europas we had had a single row of (6 ithink) tubes, not the most efficient exchanger, although better than the flat steel panel many big box pellet stoves have. Its all well and good to gas off unburned fumes, have a 25 minute start up, whatever, but unless you are transferring that heat OUT, it all goes out the stack. Check out the Harman heat exchanger system, or even on on a cumberland pellet unit, the enviro maxx has a huge heat exchanger as well... thats the kinda thing that means $ savings per lb burned.


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## BDPVT (Mar 2, 2010)

summit said:
			
		

> I also think that heat exchanger surface area must have alot to do w/ overall eff%'s... The Europas we had had a single row of (6 ithink) tubes, not the most efficient exchanger, although better than the flat steel panel many big box pellet stoves have. Its all well and good to gas off unburned fumes, have a 25 minute start up, whatever, but unless you are transferring that heat OUT, it all goes out the stack. Check out the Harman heat exchanger system, or even on on a cumberland pellet unit, the enviro maxx has a huge heat exchanger as well... thats the kinda thing that means $ savings per lb burned.


Summit, you hit the nail right on the head. Any EPA Certified pellet stove is going to have a very efficient combustion system by definition. Regardless of how the heat is made, its a matter of what happens to that heat after it's made that really counts. Franks may argue that the 10:1 air fuel ratio of the Europa makes a difference, but I believe it is the temperature of the combustion gas and how effective the heat exchanger is at extracting that heat that determines net efficiency.There are many models and types of heat exchangers, but they essentially work based on the laws of thermodynamics. One of those laws states that when an object is heated, the heat energy contained within that object will diffuse outward to the surrounding environment, until the heat energy in the object and in the environment have reached equilibrium. Most EPA Certified pellet stove have combustion efficiencies over 97%. In other words, they extract nearly 100% of BTU's available from the fuel. In order to support Franks' claim, the Europa would need to produce 30-40% more BTU's from an equal amount of fuel. That would defy the laws of physics. The Europa may be a fine stove, but it is not a miracle.


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## Fsappo (Mar 2, 2010)

BDPVT said:
			
		

> Franks, I completely agree that any new technology that saves 30-40% energy would be big news. But you seem to be the only guy making such claims. Odd that the energy industry and media are not all over this. Even the Paromax web site does not support your claim. See below:
> 
> Type of Stove
> Net Efficiency (%)
> ...



Once again, you failed to address my idea of a real life test.  It almost seems that you may be trying to stifle the idea of getting this technology brought to the publics attention.  Also, their claim of net efficiency of a non epa pellet stove shows a range of 33-70%  The stove tested that Claude used for a comparison above showed a tremendous heat loss.  You also did not address where that heat not lost ends up going.  I also see you didnt PM me with your email address so you could discuss this directly with the person who invented the stove..because of these tendencies, I'm not sure what your real intent is on this debate.

But enough of that..I actually see a party who posted above that is interested in getting to the truth of real world results in using the walk in freezers

Hadvance.  This legal sounding jargon:
"BTW-The above test method is Len B’s Idea.
If need be can be protected under my corporation.
Dated the post date & I have first rights to being partners for a grant or patent etc. "

I'm not too sure what it means, but I like the idea that you are interested in proving these claims based on real life performance.  The walk in freezer idea would be a good one, aside from having to penetrate a wall/ceiling for the venting, which may render the freezer unusable without expensive repairs.  It would allow us to run this test at any time of the year, instead of waiting until the next heating season.

Where is your facility located?  If the amount of the grant would cover the cost of a large walk in freezer, that may make the venting a non issue.

I have never applied for a grant, but I guess I can look into it. I should also see if Claude wants to do some of the legwork on this, since he has the most to gain.  I just am involved because I'm a believer in the technology and I sell the stoves to a small market.  If Claude can prove the real life results instead of just a bunch of numbers on paper, this could end up increasing his distribution to a world wide clientel.

Again, I will send this thread to Claude and see what he has to say about it.  Also, waiting for Craig (webmaster) to see if he has any suggestions.


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## BDPVT (Mar 2, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> BDPVT said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Franks, once again you insist on comparing some mysterious unnamed non-EPA pellet stove to the Europa. I am offended that you would question my motives. After all, you are a salesman who seems to be intentionaly misleading your customers! Franks, I have been involved in biomass research and development for the past 35yrs and have worked on projects around the country to install systems that use biomass fuel to produce heat and/or electricity in schools, communities, colleges, businesses, utilities, and government agencies.  We have conducted numerous independent and impartial feasibility studies  and routine due diligence on equipment vendors and their technology claims. There are a number of vendors in this emerging industry and as many claims to their technology’s capabilities.  My only motivation is to cut through the marketing hype and determine a system’s actual capabilities. That "bunch of numbers on paper" are the real results and the facts don't lie. Perhaps you and Claude should get your stories straight.


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## Fsappo (Mar 2, 2010)

We've moved beyond what you claim and what I claim.  There are legal reasons why the mystery stove remains unnamed.  It made by one of the top 5 largest biomass manufacturers in North America.  The numbers on paper show a huge difference in heat loss. (again heat loss is not addressed)  You can monitor the thread and see what the results are of any actual tests are.  That's the next step.  Apply what happens in a lab to what happens in real life.  We want to see what 14% heat loss does compared to 30-60% heat loss.

To the rest of you who are interested, I'm just a guy managing a fireplace shop.  I've been trying to find the location/means to run a test that would prove to be unbiased.  I'll keep pushing Claude on this.  He tells me over and over that his stoves use 30-40% less fuel to get the same heat. I've seen these results from my clients.  He is the one that should pony up to prove it to the rest of the public.

For anyone truly interested in the technology, you can PM me with your email address and I'll put you in touch with Claude and keep you in the email loops as far as our conversations go.

Perhaps someone else with 35 years of biomass R&D may have a suggestion on what kind of facility would run these kinds of tests?


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## BDPVT (Mar 2, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> We've moved beyond what you claim and what I claim. There are legal reasons why the mystery stove remains unnamed. It made by one of the top 5 largest biomass manufacturers in North America. The numbers on paper show a huge difference in heat loss. (again heat loss is not addressed) You can monitor the thread and see what the results are of any actual tests are. That's the next step. Apply what happens in a lab to what happens in real life. We want to see what 14% heat loss does compared to 30-60% heat loss.
> 
> To the rest of you who are interested, I'm just a guy managing a fireplace shop. I've been trying to find the location/means to run a test that would prove to be unbiased. I'll keep pushing Claude on this. He tells me over and over that his stoves use 30-40% less fuel to get the same heat. I've seen these results from my clients. He is the one that should pony up to prove it to the rest of the public.
> 
> ...


Franks, I think your hearts in the right place but you are in way over your head on this one. In my opinion, the only meaningful comparative tests should be done in a independent lab where the variables can be controlled. All the necessary tests have already been done by Paromax. You have repeatedly either misquoted or misinterpreted the results. How is a comparison to a low efficiency non- certified pellet stove even valid? If it was even remotely possible use 30-40% less fuel to get the same heat compared to a truly competitive product, wouldn't it be in Claude's best interest to prove it and promote this remarkable breakthrough? Claude has remained strangely silent, just a brief mention on his website "Burns up to 35% less fuel than a typical biomass stove". What the heck is a typical biomass stove? No offence Franks, but doesn't it strike you as odd that he has a stove shop salesman making the pitch?


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## summit (Mar 3, 2010)

if this "newer" europa has any similarity to the old dell point unit, can you still adjust the exhaust fan rates via the control board? I could understand the theory of if, by controlling residence time in the unit of the hot gasses and gassing off via the tall burnpots' "secondary"... but, I don't think we had that much more fuel efficiency with it over any other pellet unit in there. you could get some pretty good temps, but you had to dial it all in right via the board: coupled with the longer start up, and non auto mode, I think whatever fuel efficiency #'s you may have achieved were erased in the long run by the fact it was always burning fuel. To really get things going, tell Claude to put in some more heat exchange surface area, and a faster blower. I know things are a little different, but they still look like the same duck.


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## Fsappo (Mar 3, 2010)

BDPVT said:
			
		

> Franks said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We can surely agree on that point.  If you saw the emails I send to Claude, you would see my frustration.  I have, on many occasions, showed him how to set up an account on these forums, so he could be part of the dialogue.  I have told him many times, he should do some kind of real life testing showing real world results.  I keep getting "I'll donate one of our stoves to the cause" and a bunch of stuff about air ratios, heat loss and heat exchangers.  I'm an old fashioned type.  When I was young and more stupid, my friends and I would talk horsepower, gear ratios in regards to our cars.  What do you think ended up happening almost every time we had the chance or when a new guy with a new car showed up?  Drag races.  So, yeah..for the little bit of a vested interest I have in this in regards to potential income, I seem to be doing a lot of preaching without any real proof, except what I see locally with my clients.  I arm wrestle to see who wins, regardless of size.  The NFL plays every game, regardless of who should win on paper (I know that is not really the same)

For me, a typical biomass stove is a stove that drops pellets into a tray and blows air thru them.


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## vvvv (Mar 3, 2010)

Install it in a room with an AC connected to a KILL-A-WATT. Burn 5lbs. [or minimal amount] of pellets. Cool the room & read the KILL-A-WATT. Repeat for different model when outdoor conditions are similar.


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## MCPO (Mar 3, 2010)

I`ve always been interested and excited with catalytic / non cat high tech stoves that burn the gases and I`ve had both. 
 I recall saving maybe 25% on cordwood and during most of the burn cycle there was no visible smoke coming from the chimney . not to mention the absence of creosote.  But we are talking pellet stoves here.
   The use of this proven technology obviously works well in the Europa but in reality it`s probably better suited for use in cordwood and oil stoves since most stove mfgrs have already developed near maximum combustion efficiencies for pellet burning that seemingly would be difficult if not impossible to significantly improve upon. 
 What I find as a much more interesting aspect of the Europa stove is the low exhaust volume. (less input air)  However this has to be directly related to heat transfer efficiency and the exchanger system itself and there lies the greater differences that separate this stove from a more conventional one. There lies the mystery to me.
 The longer startup time, lack of auto ignition, and cost are deal breakers for most folks and is primarily what keeps this stove from widespread acceptance.


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## Fsappo (Mar 3, 2010)

summit said:
			
		

> if this "newer" europa has any similarity to the old dell point unit, can you still adjust the exhaust fan rates via the control board? I could understand the theory of if, by controlling residence time in the unit of the hot gasses and gassing off via the tall burnpots' "secondary"... but, I don't think we had that much more fuel efficiency with it over any other pellet unit in there. you could get some pretty good temps, but you had to dial it all in right via the board: coupled with the longer start up, and non auto mode, I think whatever fuel efficiency #'s you may have achieved were erased in the long run by the fact it was always burning fuel. To really get things going, tell Claude to put in some more heat exchange surface area, and a faster blower. I know things are a little different, but they still look like the same duck.



Still can adjust the combustion air with the control board. Your correct as far as having to spend a 20 minute start up cycle to achieve the gasification (maybe not the correct term) but during that start up cycle the stove is still burning at the same efficiency as a typical stove that burns pellets dropped into a tray full of holes. When I do sell these stoves, they are sold to people who will be hooking them up to a thermostat and running them 30 days at a time (only shutting down once a month to empty the ash pan) You do lose a lot of the value if you had the stove turned on and off daily. I talked to Claude about why he doesn't have more heat exchange area or a stronger convection fan. He told me it was part of the "secret" and wouldnt say much more. Secrets are claims are great, but I'm DYING to do some kind of comparison. The world needs to know if there is a simple way to use 30% less biomass. My customers need to know if the savings are NOT 30-40%. Again, I have many of these sold locally and have yet to have a customer use more than 3 tons of pellets, with many of them heating over 1500 square feet. Also a couple of customers who told me that they have saved 2 tons of fuel by swapping out different stoves for the Europa, so my local reputation as an honest GM holds true. But I want the drag race so bad.

I'll offer again, that I am not a tech guru and anyone who is SINCERELY interested in learning more or debating this technology is welcomed to PM me with their email address and I will email them Claudes email so this can be discussed directly without me in the middle dumbing things out.


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## Fsappo (Mar 3, 2010)

Gio said:
			
		

> I`ve always been interested and excited with catalytic / non cat high tech stoves that burn the gases and I`ve had both.
> I recall saving maybe 25% on cordwood and during most of the burn cycle there was no visible smoke coming from the chimney . not to mention the absence of creosote.  But we are talking pellet stoves here.
> The use of this proven technology obviously works well in the Europa but in reality it`s probably better suited for use in cordwood and oil stoves since most stove mfgrs have already developed near maximum combustion efficiencies for pellet burning that seemingly would be difficult if not impossible to significantly improve upon.
> What I find as a much more interesting aspect of the Europa stove is the low exhaust volume. (less input air)  However this has to be directly related to heat transfer efficiency and the exchanger system itself and there lies the greater differences that separate this stove from a more conventional one. There lies the mystery to me.
> ...



It's not really a longer startup time from a heat standpoint.  I can hit start on my GF-55 auto ignite with a primed auger, walk over to the europa and go thru the gel process and the Europa will be blowing 250+ degree air sometimes before the convection fan starts on the auto ignite stove..also, these Europas are not designed as on/off stoves.  Yet, a $4400 stove that does not have auto ignite is still a hard sell.  The 12 volt system and standard battery backup helps.  The Europa may never be the staple of a hearth shop.  I sell 5-10 a year and it makes up for about 10% of my pellet stove sales. Now, take that combustion technology, make it so it could use auto ignite without lowering the efficiency and put a $3999 price tag on it, and I would expect that they would grab more market share.  Claude seems to be comfortable with his current volume.  He only builds 6 stoves per day.  That may be why he isn't jumping up and down trying to prove real world results...maybe thats the reason.  He also mentions to me that he isn't interested in educating other stove makers on how to improve their products without compensation.


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## Fsappo (Mar 3, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> Install it in a room with an AC connected to a KILL-A-WATT. Burn 5lbs. [or minimal amount] of pellets. Cool the room & read the KILL-A-WATT. Repeat for different model when outdoor conditions are similar.



Now, thats interesting.  I have no idea what a Kill A watt device is.  I'll try to google it and see if that could simplify things.  Then we can ship a stove to a neutral corner, like webbys garage and let him test it that way.


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## Fsappo (Mar 3, 2010)

This is the answer I got from Claude, asking him to help figure out a way to run a side by side comparison"
The common client may think you are over doing it a little ,but what I’m reading its the dealers that are on your case .
I’ve gave up with them “ so call know it alls “ a long time ago.
My first questions  , and with the proper answers I would go forward in discussion if not the right answers lets stop wasting our time.
(Its like going to the dentist for a heart examination )
a-    Is their a difference using more or less air when burning fuels . Yes or NO
b-    Is their a difference with a normal fuel bed or with a lesser fuel bed . Yes or NO
c-    Is it important  to know  heat exchanger can play a roll in efficiencies . Yes or NO
You know why I’m silent with all these debates .
a-    Most dealer don’t know what they are talking about . 
b-    Ask them what are the efficiencies of Breckwell ,Enviro ,American Energy stove etc. etc. they just read the brochure.

The day a major manufacturer challenges  our claims (which will not happen) that’s means he is open for a debate .
He doesn’t want to expose his ( no) technology and  lose credibility , that’s why no one has offered a unit to challenge ours
Now if no one can’t see that writing on the wall, that’s their problem ,not mine. 

We can stand beside our product any day of the week. You Frank and I.

cl……..

So, I'm gonna find a way to do this testing on my own, with the help of the people who are offering suggestions here.  If I come up with an unbiased way to do so, I'll contact Craig (webmaster) and see if he wants to run the tests


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## MCPO (Mar 4, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> This is the answer I got from Claude, asking him to help figure out a way to run a side by side comparison"
> The common client may think you are over doing it a little ,but what I’m reading its the dealers that are on your case .
> I’ve gave up with them “ so call know it alls “ a long time ago.
> My first questions  , and with the proper answers I would go forward in discussion if not the right answers lets stop wasting our time.
> ...



Frank`s , I`m sure you understand that no one actually has issues with you personally or do they doubt the sincerity of your stated customer claims.  All we would like to know is if the Europa really does put out more heat with less pellets as in their claims. It doesn`t seem as though CL is willing to lend you much support on it.
 Obviously it`s going to be difficult and near impossible to do a valid comparison anywhere but at a certified testing facility and consequently anywhere else would always be open to criticism and still costly not to mention tedious and difficult to arrange. It will most certainly fall by the wayside. I think it makes sense to do any testing right in place at your shop where the stove is already set up and running.
 Why not you invite 2-3 forum members of your choice to your shop to do an on site evaluation of the stove . They could bring their thermostats , probes, and remote heat guns to test with their own methods. Pellets could be measured and burned in pounds per hr. 
 I know it would be far from exacting but you yourself claim the stove noticeably produces more heat than others. The team should be able to come to the same conclusion as you have and their testimony would be better received since they would be forum members with  nothing to gain by skewing their findings. The forum readership probably puts more faith in actual hands on user reports than any brochure exaggerations.
  I`d have to feel most forum members place a lot of credibility in folks like Tjakeman ,  Macman ,  Smokey Bear, and Craig our administrator .


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## Fsappo (Mar 4, 2010)

Gio,  I would love some or all of the forum members to come out and do some testing.  Hell, I'll even whip out the Traeger and do some bbq for everyone.  They can test and probe away...but to what result?  This is my dilema.  So, I can burn two stoves at 2 lbs per hour, have folks stand in front and see the difference in heat..but thats subjective, right?  They can measure 275 degree heat coming out of the Europa at that feed rate and 175 out of another stove...but that can be due to the difference in CFMS between the two convection fans.  They could measure exhuast on both stoves, but that could be affected by pipe runs.  So, you'd get a bunch of guys all saying. "oh wow, yeah, that Europa makes a lot of heat on x lbs per hour, amazing..a lot more than that brand x over there"  Which is all well and good.  But what I am trying to determine is how much less fuel for the Europa to heat X square feet.  Thats the claim Claude made to me (30-40% less fuel) Thats the claim I make to my customers, and thats what I feel should be proven.  It should be done in a somewhat controlled test.  I would care less if it ended up being 26% less fuel, 36% or 46%...what I care about is getting a hard number when comparing the Europa to stoves like Enviro, Quad, Harman.  It would be nice to be able to tell a customer"well, you can spend $3500 on a Quad AE or $4500 on a Europa, because this study shows that the Europa will save you $400-500 a year in fuel costs"  

By the way, if the forum members made a field trip, you should probably come along to Gio.  I'm not sure it's the study I'm looking for, but it may be a start.  Let's see if any other forum members show any kind of interest in coming out.  We would need to do it on a Sunday, aside from that..."release the hounds!"


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## MCPO (Mar 4, 2010)

Frank`s,
I really don`t think anything else except a trip to your shop is going to happen any time soon, and the season is fast coming to a close anyway. 
Regarding the value of my suggested on site testing and potential positive conclusions of experienced forum members being there and witnessing this stove operate would be more valid and do more good than anything printed in a sales brochure.   Of course there always exists a possibility that the conclusions could be negative and therefore should be a consideration for you , but knowing how upbeat and how fond you are with the Europa that probably wouldn`t worry you at all.

 Running two stoves side by side shouldn`t have to be a necessity for doing a basic evaluation. I`d be the last to claim I`m qualified as an expert but after burning pellets for two yrs in at least 4 different stoves I think even I have enough experience to judge whether or not a particular stove puts out a lot of heat without having another one running at it`s side to compare with.  Theoretically numbers arrived at from test procedures don`t lie but in actual practice differences are often drawn. Real world use is often also required to draw other conclusions that could be more usefull to the end user..
 As I inferred earlier , any actual valid testing and comparisons just aren`t gonna happen and this might be the best alternative.


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## Fsappo (Mar 4, 2010)

Nah, I'm not too worried about negative conclusions.  The worst that could happen is Pook showing up trying to fit a magic heat into a 3" pellet vent flue.  I still think it would be a fun thing to do.  Even if I did start another thread inviting folks for a Sunday bbq and get together, we'd probably get 500 RSVPS but when Sunday came it would be me and Kenny Chaos eating ribs  and playing cards.  I may just throw something out there though in a seperate thread..should probably end up going in the ash can.  

Thanks Gio, it may not be the test I'm looking for, but it sure would be a fun idea and a way to meet some other forum members.


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## vvvv (Mar 4, 2010)

Wood is about 60% pyrogas, the rest of the heat comes from coals which not unlike coal prefer air from the grates below to dissolve them. How this is this resolved in the EUROPA? Grass pellets were a problem [silica clinkers] for the EUROPA last I heard.


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## Fsappo (Mar 4, 2010)

From what I know of how the stove works:
When the stove is initially lit, you fill the burn tube with about 2 cups of pellets, pour the gel and light it.  There are air holes under these pellets which will cause them to burn and create an ash bed.  The ash bed remains active because of the air flow and as the fresh pellets hit this bed they burn (bake) to release the gas.  The gasses are burn by introducing preheated air thru the holes about the ash bed.  

I hope I explained that correctly.   We burned grass pellets for a while here and didnt have a clinker issue.  What he did notice is burned up grass pellets which held their original pellet shape but were really fly (all energy removed from the pellet)  They were either burning too fast, or the ash didnt have enough weight to apply pressure to the ash removal system.  The pot would fill up with ash and very little would go thru to the ash pan.  I was going to try the same experiment with some grass pellets from DJ, we just havent had the time to get together with him.  I was going to try with the corn pot to see if the increased air would create some turbulence that would help the pellet ash go from pellet shaped, to the fly ash that it actually was.

One of our dealers just sold one to Cornell up here and they will be running their own tests with the grass pellets and the Europa.  They have a few other units in the lab they are trying this with, like the Quad AE.   You know, those guys may be the guys that can help with the fuel usage dilema.  They have the toys, time and money that I dont have.  I may just have to pay them a visit and see if they can do some comparison.

Blimp, did I answer the question about the pyrogas, etc?  I'm not much of a tekkie


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## MCPO (Mar 4, 2010)

Are there any forum member(s) in Frank`s vicinity?  It`s just a little north of Syracuse NY.


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## MCPO (Mar 4, 2010)

There`s a (former?) dealer in Schenectady which is closer to me that has one on display but not connected or running. Seems they bought it last year and want to sell it at cost , $3,500. The girl couldn`t say whether it was the old or new model.
 It didn`t sound like the Europa was much of a seller there but that in itself doesn`t mean anything other than I`d have to travel farther to see one running..


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## Fsappo (Mar 4, 2010)

Is it Adirondak Stoves?  If so, they havent sold a stove since they took on the dealership.  They may be looking to turn it into cash.  Also, if it is them that is about their cost.  The new dealers we set up last year averaged selling only 2-3 units.  It's not an easy sell even for me as a person who is in love with the stove.  Let me know if you end up going out there to see it.


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## vvvv (Mar 4, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> From what I know of how the stove works:
> When the stove is initially lit, you fill the burn tube with about 2 cups of pellets, pour the gel and light it.  There are air holes under these pellets which will cause them to burn and create an ash bed.  The ash bed remains active because of the air flow and as the fresh pellets hit this bed they burn (bake) to release the gas.  The gasses are burn by introducing preheated air thru the holes about the ash bed.
> 
> I hope I explained that correctly.   We burned grass pellets for a while here and didnt have a clinker issue.  What he did notice is burned up grass pellets which held their original pellet shape but were really fly (all energy removed from the pellet)  They were either burning too fast, or the ash didnt have enough weight to apply pressure to the ash removal system.  The pot would fill up with ash and very little would go thru to the ash pan.  I was going to try the same experiment with some grass pellets from DJ, we just havent had the time to get together with him.  I was going to try with the corn pot to see if the increased air would create some turbulence that would help the pellet ash go from pellet shaped, to the fly ash that it actually was.
> ...


Sounds good. Cornell sounds even better.


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## Fsappo (Mar 4, 2010)

They should be getting their stove within a few weeks.  I'll try to start an email dialogue with one of them there.  I'll ask permission to post their findings on these forums.


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## MCPO (Mar 4, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> Is it Adirondak Stoves?  If so, they havent sold a stove since they took on the dealership.  They may be looking to turn it into cash.  Also, if it is them that is about their cost.  The new dealers we set up last year averaged selling only 2-3 units.  It's not an easy sell even for me as a person who is in love with the stove.  Let me know if you end up going out there to see it.



I wouldn`t go see it since it`s not operating.


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## Fsappo (Mar 4, 2010)

And then they wonder why they arent selling any that if it is Adirondack.  Was that the place you called?


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## MCPO (Mar 4, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> And then they wonder why they arent selling any that if it is Adirondack.  Was that the place you called?



 Thats the place. The girl was very nice on the phone.


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## Fsappo (Mar 4, 2010)

I guess I'll need to be looking for another dealer in that area.  Thanks for the info, Gio.  I do hope you find yourself out this way some day.  It would be good to meet you in person


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## MCPO (Mar 4, 2010)

Franks said:
			
		

> I guess I'll need to be looking for another dealer in that area.  Thanks for the info, Gio.  I do hope you find yourself out this way some day.  It would be good to meet you in person



It`s possible. I probably go by or nearby to your shop when I go to Lake Ontario ( Mexico) fishing in the early summer and fall.


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## Fsappo (Mar 5, 2010)

yup, we're right on the way.  Also, B&B Country stoves in Johnstown is one of our dealers, they sell and burn corn only, but they are great folks and they would probably give you a tour of their corn cleaning/drying operation


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## mascoma (Mar 5, 2010)

it seems to me that this claude character has to either be a full of BS or is the worse business man on the face of the planet.  
If the data was there to show 30% less fuel usage people would pay the price.


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## Fsappo (Mar 5, 2010)

mascoma said:
			
		

> it seems to me that this claude character has to either be a full of BS or is the worse business man on the face of the planet.
> If the data was there to show 30% less fuel usage people would pay the price.



I wish I could disagree!  I suspect and hope it is the latter of the two.  He is not much on the marketing end, but seems to know a lot about combustion.  I just spoke to him again this morning about a side by side test, using the "street racing two cars" analogy.  He seemed to get it then..seemed to.  It always sounds like it is so obvious and clear in his mind that his 34K btu stove will heat the same as a 50K btu stove that any fool could see it, based on the test results.  If thats the case, I'm a fool.  He gets annoyed when he reads the threads I send to him, like he shouldnt have to prove himself.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, PROVE that the stove uses less fuel in a public arena and he wont have to worry about marketing ever again.  Document the testing on You Tube, let it go viral.  If the stove does what I have seen it do, and what he claims it will do, he wouldnt be able to build them fast enough.  Hell, he could sell the design to HTT or Lennox for 5-10 million and retire.

Thats what frustrates the hell outa me.

I used to think that he just may be happy making his 6 stoves per day..but then he told me this morning that he sold 100 stoves to a firm in France that was looking for ultimate efficiency in a free standing biomass stove, and they couldnt find anything in Europe.  Heck, with this 100 stove order he may be less inclined to push the message here.

Oh well, I'll keep looking for solutions and will be following up with the local university here after they get their stove.


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## mascoma (Mar 5, 2010)

Beware the order from China.  They'll reverse engineer that thing and sell them thru HD for $49.99

No Joke, I have seen an Italian made mechanical item about the size of a coffin that used to wholesale for about $3,000+ shipping to US,  copied in china and LANDED in the us for less than $75.


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## Fsappo (Mar 5, 2010)

Ugg, yeah.  I'll let him know that.  Although, if they really wanted to get their hands on the technology, they could just order one from a local dealer and arrange to pick it up at his shop.


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## lmjr (Mar 30, 2010)

So...If I understand this Europa 75 was sold by originator for a while...then Sold to FPI for a while...then bought back by originator and still is owned by them now.

So... Serial Numbers of 00001-xxxxx are good ones...S/N's of xxxx1-yyyy9 are FPI (Bad) and S/N's zzzz1-current are good ones again.

So...other than S/N's, how do you spot a FPI?


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## summit (Mar 30, 2010)

Master of Smoke said:
			
		

> So...If I understand this Europa 75 was sold by originator for a while...then Sold to FPI for a while...then bought back by originator and still is owned by them now.
> 
> So... Serial Numbers of 00001-xxxxx are good ones...S/N's of xxxx1-yyyy9 are FPI (Bad) and S/N's zzzz1-current are good ones again.
> 
> So...other than S/N's, how do you spot a FPI?



the dirty glass!! :lol:


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## MCPO (Mar 30, 2010)

mascoma said:
			
		

> Beware the order from China.  They'll reverse engineer that thing and sell them thru HD for $49.99
> 
> No Joke, I have seen an Italian made mechanical item about the size of a coffin that used to wholesale for about $3,000+ shipping to US,  copied in china and LANDED in the us for less than $75.



Another example: 
 Most of the better accordions were generally  made in  Italy.  Some Hohners made in Germany are an exception but Hohner now has many of their models produced in China , selling for 1/2 the price of the originals.  And they are good sounding instruments. The Chinese quality is steadily improving and before long they will own that market too.


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## Fsappo (Apr 1, 2010)

Master of Smoke said:
			
		

> So...If I understand this Europa 75 was sold by originator for a while...then Sold to FPI for a while...then bought back by originator and still is owned by them now.
> 
> So... Serial Numbers of 00001-xxxxx are good ones...S/N's of xxxx1-yyyy9 are FPI (Bad) and S/N's zzzz1-current are good ones again.
> 
> So...other than S/N's, how do you spot a FPI?



FPI Models have 9 digit serial numbers, all numbers.  The ones made by Dell Point (pre fpi) and Paromax (post fpi but same maker) are alpha numeric, will generally begin and end with the letter A and be 6 characters, for example A1234A.


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## Linda&Stu (Dec 20, 2010)

We have abt 3000sq ft home and I have been using the Europa since 2005 as my primary heat source.  The first year was great heat output.  But then then unit stopped working mid-Feb, and I was told the unit was recalled, and the company replaced it in 2006.  The replacement unit never gave off as much heat, and I have had on-going problems with it.  I have replaced the auger screws numerous times.  This year, I decided to buy a whole new unit, to avoid any mid-season issues.  I replaced the part, no problems.  Hahaha.  Problem #1, I cannot seem to maintain an ashbed.  Even if I lower the ash extraction to 1, the ashbed is non-existent.  Problem #2, therefore, I am not getting very much heat from the unit.  Problem #3, the mini helix setting are a joke, because even if I crank up the combustion, and keep the extraction at 1, I do not get the correct readings.  I barely hover around the 2.  This morning, we woke up to a cold house, the stove was out, and the E1 message did not make sense, because there was a full hopper.  (could it be my ash bed was just too low?)  The feed auger is working tempermentally.  We just emptied the hopper (always fun), disassembled the auger, seemed to release some pellets that way, put it back together, and started it up.  The auger is turning, but not always are pellets being dropped.  About 2/3 of the time.  I am getting fed up with this Europa.  Read some old post from Frank offering a trial unit to a customer in CTâ€”- is that offer still good?  The unit worked well in the past, and I donâ€™t feel like itâ€™s old enough to have to replace.  Is my unit just a lemon?  Any suggestions?  Thanks in advance!


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## imacman (Dec 20, 2010)

Since this is an old thread, you might want to send Franks a PM to get his attention about your problems....especially on a Sunday night.


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## EmaZ (Jan 5, 2011)

I don't understand "gasification" and other terms mentioned here.  I bought a Dell Point Europa 75 as an affordable source of heat.  With a global energy crisis and threats to our environment due to petroleum mining, we need alternative fuels but pellet stove technology hasn't reached a level that the average person can master.  
With time, I hope that these stoves become easier to maintain.
As it is, I am skeptical about pellet stove marketing, like that of the Europa, because it preys on the idealism of the consumer.  They need to develop more effective consumer education/customer service that fulfill their promo photos of happily smiling families around the stove.


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## EmaZ (Jan 5, 2011)

A note to Linda & Stu...I live in northern Indiana and my experience with the Dell Point Europa has been much the same as yours:  sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't...with lots of phone calling, research and repairing in between.  
When I submitted my previous post, I had been reading an earlier discussion on this thread related to the technology and efficiency of the Europa.  Evidently, I hadn't read til the end of the thread, so I'm sure my previous post sounded rather unrelated.
Tonight, I'm trying to maintain the fuel level on the burn pot.  I have the settings down to the recommended level but there doesn't seem to be fuel even up to the bottom of the burn pot.  I think the recommended burn pot fuel level is 5" from the top!  
Also someone on another thread mentioned air leaks and I found out tonight before lighting the stove that the lower ash extraction chamber gasket is not sealing at all!  So now I have in store an involved procedure to replace this gasket and seal up the air leaks; apparently a manufacturer flaw.
That's what is so astonishing to me about the Europa--the amount of research and maintenance that they expect of the consumer, despite their own mistakes.  
I get my best help from this chatroom.  The dealer and the manufacturer (Regency, FPI) are evasive and endlessly "pass the buck."
What continues to motivate me?  The alternative of those staggering utility bills!  
I hope the fire will burn brighter someday for all of us in pellet world!


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## BDPVT (Jan 5, 2011)

EmmaZ said:
			
		

> I don't understand "gasification" and other terms mentioned here. I bought a Dell Point Europa 75 as an affordable source of heat. With a global energy crisis and threats to our environment due to petroleum mining, we need alternative fuels but pellet stove technology hasn't reached a level that the average person can master.
> With time, I hope that these stoves become easier to maintain.
> As it is, I am skeptical about pellet stove marketing, like that of the Europa, because it preys on the idealism of the consumer. They need to develop more effective consumer education/customer service that fulfill their promo photos of happily smiling families around the stove.


I am very skeptical of the consumer marketing by Dell Point and now Paromax for the Europa 75. It is blatantly misleading in my opinion. There are many reputable brands on the market today that deliver what they promise. My Harmen for example runs 24/7 with minimal maintenance, great dealer support, while significantly reducing my energy costs and carbon footprint. What more could I ask for?


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## EmaZ (Jan 5, 2011)

I've also heard that the Harmen is reliable.  A reputable company should stand behind its product--I'm glad to hear that the customer support for the Harmen is good.
I know I sound like a broken record...but I bought the Europa and I'm "stuck with it."  Some of the owners here on this site are very happy with it, so apparently some models work well.  But they seem to have authorized the sale of some lemons as well.  
It would be great if the pellet/biomass stove industry established a better protocol for consumer vs. manufacturer responsibility for maintenance, repair, upkeep.  I'm not a dealer or expert tinkerer like many others on this site.  But wouldn't manufacturers want to appeal to "the average Joe"?  It occurs to me that that's where the wider market would be.  I mean, how many mechanical geniuses are out there to keep the pellet stove industry prosperous?
Okay, my burn pot level on my Europa 75 is a bit higher today.  But I have the combustion fan/ash extraction setting on 5 and the manual says it's supposed to be on 8.  
I re-read the instructions from many helpful friends on this site and my current shopping list includes:  LED headlamp, high temp copper grease, RTV sealant and Rutland gasket cement.  Someone said that repairing air leaks to the lower ash extraction chamber takes under and hour.  But the instructions are very daunting for me.
It's all a learning process, right?


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## Fsappo (Jan 5, 2011)

BDPVT said:
			
		

> EmmaZ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, unfounded claims or claims made in a way the typical consumer cant understand dont do much to promote your product or company.  Claude has been told this.  He was willing to donate a stove to Craig (webmaster) so he can run a true side by side test.  If the Europa heats the same as brand X and uses 30% less fuel with lower mainanence, Craig would give Claude some free advertising.  If not, Craig gets to keep the stove for free.  I got very busy at the office since then, Craig had family health issues and Claudes technology was finally picked up and understood by a company in France and one in Canada (Names cant be released yet as per Claude) So Claude hasnt been pushing for the test either.

Locally, I know what the stove can do for my customers.  I have existing customers that will testify on the pellet savings they saw when switching over, so I can send new prospects over to speak with them.  Since Paromax started making the stoves again, they have worked fine.  The issues people are having are folks that bought the Regency version thru lousy dealers who dont give a crap about their customers.   Again, anyone with a Europa from Regency can always call Claude directly and try to get some further help.  Just PM or email me for his direct number and extension.

Maybe Webmaster will see that this post is still floating around and come up with a good test.  It would be great for the industry.  Keep in mind, I no longer distribute the Europa.  I dont need to market it locally, as its reputation does that alone, so I have no vested interest in this test for personal gain.  I just think that if Claudes claims are true and he can bring this technology to market, it would lessen our dependence on biomass, help keep pellet costs down, etc.


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## EmaZ (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks for your post.  About contacting Claude directly, I recently emailed Paromax with a specific question about the proper installation of the upper augur motor assembly.  It seems like a simple enough question to me.  Claude emailed me back without answering my question.  He said only: "Contact the manufacturer" (604-946-5155 manufacturer, 866-946-5155 technical)  When I contacted Regency, they said "contact the dealer."  My dealer, who has sometimes assisted, is also chronically MIA.  Yes, I contacted them yesterday and they just said "We'll get back to you." (the same thing they said in November and December of last year)  I feel like a cat chasing its tail.  It's such a familiar pattern--I wish they would be more direct.


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## Fsappo (Jan 5, 2011)

Dont email him, give him a call at (877) 419-9877 ext 221.  He has been trying help Regency customers in the past.  As I mentioned, he is starting to get very busy now that the industry has caught on to his technology, so he may be harder to reach


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## EmaZ (Jan 6, 2011)

Thanks.  I might sound like a whiner, but it is frustrating to get the runaround.  I called 604-946-5155 today and talked with someone who sounded knowledgeable.  I had been doubtful about the way I re-installed the upper augur motor assembly.  Someone at the dealer said that I would need tapered set screws to make it tighten securely into place.  (This was someone who said he'd look it up in his Europa info & send me photocopies about correct installation but he never did)
Well, the person at this number I called (I didn't catch his name) said that the upper augur motor needs to have some play in it; "the moving parts bring the pellets down," and that it is normal for it to be not totally tight.  He also said that it's ok for it to be secured with 2 "short, heavy, silver big-headed screws on either side of the collar."  When I first had looked at it, one screw was missing and I found a few loose screws in the bottom of the stove.  So I had my doubts about which screws I should use to re-install it.  And the dealer had said I needed tapered-end set screws.
This might sound trivial but I wanted to be sure it was re-installed right.  The reason I had taken out the upper augur motor assembly was because it looked twisted and I had been having trouble starting my stove, getting an F5 reading...and the black wire is connected to Pin 7 on the control panel, "augur feed."  The guy on the phone was concerned that I might have accidentally switched the yellow and black wires where they connect to the motor.  He said that it would cause the upper augur motor to revolve the wrong way until it worked its way up into the hopper.  Wow!  But I feel confident that I re-installed the wires right because the motor was marked in black on one side to indicate where the black wire should connect.
Appreciate your help!


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## Kernel Klinker (Jan 7, 2011)

2 round head , straight slot screws hold the auger assembly in place. The motor swings on the shaft. When the motor runs, it is stopped from rotating by an angle or channel iron (I'm not taking it apart to look). If it is not pushing fuel it will rotate a bit but will not move in and out very far. While you have it this far apart, empty the hopper and carefully remove both wires, yellow +, black -, mine is labeled, (it's a DC motor, if it runs backwards, reverse the wires)  remove the two screws and pull out the auger. You will make a mess and learn just how simple this setup is to clear from a jam. I have had to remove rocks and nails. Jams will blow a fuse. Never has stopped on dust, cobs or stems. Eats big pellets too. Open the control panel door. All of the Error Messages are listed there  with a short description of what happened. And the clips holding the fuses break easily, so be careful when changing fuses.
KK (and HF)

PS: The description what happens to the fuel bed is "Pyrolysis".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis


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## EmaZ (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks, Kernel.  I actually have taken this assembly out before, because my previous stove had frequent upper augur jams.  The dealer said those jams happened because the pellets I was using had too much sawdust.  Anyway, my memory was that this assembly was supposed to fit in tightly, but my memory is probably wrong...because it is not a procedure that I do frequently.
Now I need to get the RTV sealant and seal the "tear drop" for the ash extraction chamber air leak.  As for the fuel level in the bed, I did adjust the settings as Irishman suggested (combustion: 7, ash extraction: 1).  Now the window is full of soot and I'm just too cowardly to open it and check the fuel...so I'm hoping for the best.
I appreciate your expertise, it is very helpful.


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## Kernel Klinker (Jan 8, 2011)

Jeepkiller fixed his warped top ring problem.
If you fix this leak the others will not matter as much.

I will do the same, or close.
Right now mine is glued on with stove cement.
Works for a while, but it is hard to remove.
Hats off to Jeep!
KK (or HF)
http://www.iburncorn.com/forum/24-dell-point/3446-warped-top-plate-still#4114


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## Kernel Klinker (Jan 8, 2011)

No worries on opening the door while the stove is burning.
Wear Gloves and long sleeves. 
Use a cotton towel/Rag. 
Keep it in a container/pail by the stove for that rag.
Just open the door an inch or so and wait a few seconds for the fire to calm down.
Then open the door with your right hand and wipe the soot down with your left.
As for settings every stove is different.
You need to learn what your stove needs.
Do you have the 2 exhaust restrictor plates?
After you seal your top ring, you may still need to reduce your draft.
KK


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## EmaZ (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks.  Any kind of gloves will do? (to wear while opening the stove door)
Regarding the restrictor plates, I do have two 4 1/2" square metal plates, that I found in a plastic bag with other stove stuff after the dealer came to install my 2nd (replacement) stove in 2008.  Both plates have a 1" diameter hole in the middle and a small hole in each corner (5 holes total).  They came with an identical square of felt or nylon.  Are these the restrictor plates?  I will check on previous posts to see if you already explained what to do with them.
It's 5 degrees out today so heat is needed!   Take care!


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## Lyndon Fuller (Dec 19, 2013)

So I unclogged my augar for the hopper, but when I went to raise the temp after I lowered it in the day, I am unable to get it past "3" is one of those fuses used to raise the heat any help would be grateful it a dell point gf 75 2006.


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## specifieduser (Jan 31, 2014)

Fsappo said:


> Ok, Sugar, and to anyone else interested.  Of course, I'll enjoy doing this because I use a Europa, made by Paromax, in my showroom and I also sell them.  Any chance to learn more about this technology by way of discussion is good for me and my customers.  You asked for links, so I will just include them with a brief description.
> 
> This is one that talks about the 94.9% heat exchanger efficiency of the stove using the lower heat value.
> http://www.paromax.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=12&lang=en
> ...



I'm intrigued, any chance I might get some contact info.?


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