# guidance



## Dirge (Jan 31, 2015)

I hope this question isn't overly burdensome or subject to wide ranging opinions, but I'm wondering if folks here could provide me with some guidance in choosing a stove.

My situation is this - my home is heated by electric. We've had outages. So I need a back up heat source that doesn't require electric. I have a natural gas line run to my house. I have no chimney. So I'd like to buy a gas stove that I can direct vent out the side of my house. Oh, and I don't have $3,000 to spend on a new gas stove and piping   I'd like to keep it around $1,000 or less total. So I've been trying to find a used stove in good condition.

I need the stove to be a direct vent model, natural gas (unless I can find the kit to convert from LP for an affordable price) and 24,000 BTU or more, and it would be a bonus if the temperature is adjustable and has a non-electric ignition.

So I've mostly been keeping an eye on Craiglist in my area for used stoves. And there have been several that I've been interested in, but they just haven't quite met the above criteria.

I'm looking for guidance on which models are safe bets or ones to stay away from, along with any issues I should be aware of.

Currently there are a few models on Craiglist that I'm considering:
Napoleon GDS50
Quadrafire (bay window, not sure if it's a Hudson Bay)
Heat-N-Glo Tiara II
Hearthstone Santa Fe

Are any of these worth pursuing or to be avoided?

I've seen several Vermont Castings Radiance stoves as well. Any thoughts on this stove?

One last thing - occasionally these stoves come with the direct vent piping, which would save me some money. But if I have to purchase the piping, can anyone tell me approximately how much I should figure for a 3' to 4' vertical run through a concrete block wall with a vent cap?

I really appreciate you taking the time to help steer me in the right direction!


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## DAKSY (Feb 1, 2015)

Good luck with your with your search. I don't think you are going to be anywhere NEAR your budget.
I just priced a Direct Vent system, 4 x 6-5/8 in black.
26" vertical, 90 degree elbow, 12" thru the wall with a cover plate
& horizontal cap & those components price out at about $478.
I kinda doubt that you find will a stove that is in decent shape for $500.
Keep searching & if you find one in your budget, report back.
Give us the manufacturer, model & year built.
One of us may know about that particular model &
be able to evaluate it for you.

PS. Of the ones you listed above, I am familiar with, have sold, installed
& serviced the Hearthstone Santa Fe, & I have serviced the VC Radiance.
The Hearthstone is a nice unit. There are many people in here with that
VC model, & many of them have issues.


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## Dirge (Feb 2, 2015)

You're right Daksy, no doubt about it - I'm looking for a rare deal. But I have seen a few decent stoves on Craigslist that come with the pipe, fittings and cap within my budget. But they just haven't quite fit my situation. One was b-vent, another needed a costly conversion kit for NG, and another was a VC Radiance that I felt uncertain about.

Currently, there is an Enviro Ascot with all the piping, asking $700. But it's only 17k BTU and LP.

There are a few on my radar right now. Perhaps someone can tell me if any of them are worth pursuing.

- Heat-N-Glo Tiara II with vent piping, LP, asking $1250. I'd have to buy an NG conversion kit.

- Hearthstone Champlain - description says direct vent, pictures appear like it might be vented into a fireplace flue. Asking $500. I would need to buy vent piping.

- Jotul Allagash 300 DVII with piping, 5 year old, asking $1250. Only 26k BTU.

- Napoleon GDS50 - LP, asking $1500. I would need an NG conversion kit and vent piping.

- Hearthstone Santa Fe - 3 years old, asking $900. I would need to buy vent piping.

- Morso 200 NA with vent piping, set up for LP, asking $300. I would need to buy vent piping.

- Quadrafire - 4 years old, 40k BTU, not sure of model, looks to be vented into fireplace flue, asking $1250. I would need to buy vent piping.

Several of these have been advertised for awhile, so I'm sure the sellers are willing to take a lower offer.

If any of these are worth looking into more closely, can you please tell me what I should look for or what questions I should ask?

I appreciate the help. Reading this forum has aided my education about stoves and hearth products in general.


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## DAKSY (Feb 3, 2015)

Where did you come up with the 24K BTU figure in your original post?
Is that based on square footage & the house's insulation, or is it just a
number that someone suggested to you?


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## Dirge (Feb 3, 2015)

It is admittedly an arbitrary figure based on what I have seen listed on manufacturer's websites for sq. ft. to btu ratio. I have no experience to draw from. My basement is presently unfinished, 1,100 sq. ft., and it is a daylight basement. I would also be happy for some of the residual heat from the stove to rise to the first floor and supplement the electric heat there.


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## DAKSY (Feb 3, 2015)

Dirge said:


> It is admittedly an arbitrary figure based on what I have seen listed on manufacturer's websites for sq. ft. to btu ratio. I have no experience to draw from. My basement is presently unfinished, 1,100 sq. ft., and it is a daylight basement. I would also be happy for some of the residual heat from the stove to rise to the first floor and supplement the electric heat there.


 
In the unfinished (& I assume uninsulated) condition of your basement,
you're gonna need about 40 - 50 BTU/SF to heat it.
Unfinished concrete or block will suck the heat right out of there.
You may wanna go bigger, but then again, if money is a concern...
On ce your basement is finished, the heating demand will be lower,
but I don't know if you wanna sacrifice being warm NOW vs warm THEN.
Even so, I think I'd lean towards something in the 40K range.
75% efficiency will give you an output of 30K & that would probably work
in 1100 SF that's insulated.


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## Dirge (Feb 3, 2015)

The present need is only as a back up source of heat for situations when the power goes out for only a few hours. This would provide my family with heat to sit around the stove in the basement until the power came back on. If the power was out for more than half a day, we would leave.

But I would also like this stove to serve the future need of heating the basement once it is finished.

Of the models from Craigslist that I listed above that I'm considering, this is probably the current front runner, if you are interested to check the link:
http://lancaster.craigslist.org/for/4869212287.html

I would have to talk them down on the price a couple hundred dollars though.


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## DAKSY (Feb 3, 2015)

Looks like a nice deal. It's 25600 BTU Output burning NG.
That heat about 500 - 550 SF in an uninsulated area
The Skytech remote is worth a couple hundred alone.


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## Dirge (Feb 3, 2015)

I need to find out if it has a blower unit in it. And I'm scratching my head to think of a reason they would be selling a nice 3 year old stove. I'm not sure how to pose that question to them without sounding suspicious.


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## DAKSY (Feb 3, 2015)

A blower IS available. The part # is listed in the manual...

http://www.mainstreetfireplace.com/pdfs/Hearthstone/Hearthstone-Santa-FE-DV-Man.pdf

Don't know why it's that low. Not much goes wrong with this type unit. Whatever the reason, it's THEIR business...


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## Dirge (Feb 3, 2015)

I spoke with the owner of the Hearthstone Santa Fe. It does not have a blower.

Is it important to have a blower on a gas stove or can you use a fan or other alternate method to move the heat?

Yikes! $298 is the best price I can find for this blower (93-57010). I'm afraid if a blower is important, that's going to put the cost for this stove beyond me


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## DAKSY (Feb 4, 2015)

All the blower does is push the heat out into the room a little farther before it rises.
You can probably move the heat around just as well with ceiling or box fans.
Most folks get the BEST heat movement with fans blowing cooler air INTO the room
with the appliance, which helps to move heated air out.
I use ceiling fans on updraft mode in my house & they work very well...


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## Fsappo (Feb 4, 2015)

Dirge said:


> Hearthstone Santa Fe - 3 years old, asking $900. I would need to buy vent piping.



That would be my choice


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## Dirge (Feb 4, 2015)

DAKSY said:


> All the blower does is push the heat out into the room a little farther before it rises.
> You can probably move the heat around just as well with ceiling or box fans.
> Most folks get the BEST heat movement with fans blowing cooler air INTO the room
> with the appliance, which helps to move heated air out.
> I use ceiling fans on updraft mode in my house & they work very well...


Thanks for that input Daksy. I didn't know how valuable having a blower on the gas stove was. Is it worthwhile to use one of those wood stove fans that sit on the top of the stove?

I think I'm going to make an offer on that Hearthstone Santa Fe. If accepted, I'll be seeking some help with ordering the correct piping, installing it, and running the gas line to the meter.

Fsappo - thanks for confirming that I'm making the right choice.


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## DAKSY (Feb 4, 2015)

If you are talking about the Eco Fan or something like that, save your money to pay your gas bill.


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## Heatsource (Feb 4, 2015)

+1 on the HS santa fe

thats a great stove even w/o a blower..
if you have a ceiling fan i'd try that first


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## Fsappo (Feb 4, 2015)

In regards to fans on gas stoves. At my previous job my desk sat across from 4 DV gas stoves.  I'd say about 20' away, facing me.  Hearthstones Sterling, Champlain and Santa Fe and a Regency H25.  They all had fans.  My boss would walk by when I had one or two going and would turn fan on high.  I never attempted to explain or prove the science (If you knew him you would understand why)

I always "knew" that a fan on high in a gas stove did not make me feel any warmer.  So I ran a test for a few days.  Halfway between myself and the stoves was a post with a thermometer on it.  Across the board on all 4 stoves:

No fan, temp in that area went up 3 or so degrees after the stove was on for 2 hours (large area) After the 2 hours, fan on low, 2 hours more, temp went up 1-2 degrees.  Same thing next day after 2 hours but fan on high, temp went up 1-2 degrees.  So what I assumed, with my simple test, proved to be correct.  Kinda what we all know.  After that game for a couple of weeks, I tried to see if the fan upped the temp at the thermostat faster.   It did not (one stove, forgot which actually was slower.

I think that was because even at 10' away, the radiant heat, especially from the Sterling, is what gave the desired result quicker.

AnyHOO.  If I was going to buy a gas stove, considering the blowers are usually 300-500 options, I wouldn't spend the money.  I told my customers the same thing.  If a gas stove came with a blower, I would use it all the time on the lowest setting.

My 2 cents and I build wood fires from the bottom up!


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## Fsappo (Feb 4, 2015)

DAKSY said:


> I use ceiling fans on updraft mode in my house & they work very well...



Using a single ceiling fan when I had my wood stove took 75K btus of heat and spread it almost perfectly thru a 1300 sf or so 3 BR ranch.


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## Dirge (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks for all the input on fans and blowers. Very useful information!

I happen to have a brand new ceiling fan stowed in the basement that I bought for a bedroom without realizing it had a 6" downrod. I could use that in my basement with a gas stove. So where do you position a ceiling fan to maximize heat distribution to a room?


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## Dirge (Feb 4, 2015)

Good news. My offer was accepted!!

Now how is the best way to load, transport and unload a gas stove? Hand truck?

Tie down on the back of a pickup truck? Are there any parts that should be disassembled like the gas logs, etc?

Any other tips or advice to avoid damage or knocking things out of place while moving a gas stove?


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## DAKSY (Feb 4, 2015)

An appliance handtruck with straps is the tool you need. Remove the logset.
The logs can be pretty fragile. Also remove the granite/soapstone tiles & the top grille. 
I like to wrap the stove in a furniture pad before I strap the handtruck on.
Bungee the handtruck & stove to the truck tie-downs & you should be good to go


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## Dirge (Feb 5, 2015)

DAKSY said:


> An appliance handtruck with straps is the tool you need. Remove the logset.
> The logs can be pretty fragile. Also remove the granite/soapstone tiles & the top grille.
> I like to wrap the stove in a furniture pad before I strap the handtruck on.
> Bungee the handtruck & stove to the truck tie-downs & you should be good to go


Good tips Daksy, thanks for that.

My wife has some furniture pad pieces with her sewing stuff, I'll have to see if she has any pieces that are large enough.

The fellow I'm buying it from said it has some stones and embers that give it a glow look that were removed when he replaced it. Should I put these in a cardboard box to transport them or something like that?

Onto to vent piping components. I'll have to get some measurements once I have the stove to determine the size of the piping needed. I'll probably build some sort of hearth pad out of 2x4 and ceramic tile, which will deduct from the vertical pipe length. In the meantime, I received an email from Ebay about this vent cap that has a reduced price. Is this cap suitable for my set up? - http://www.ebay.com/itm/SELKIRK-MET...-HORIZONTAL-CAP-P-CODE-1605804-/261643905638?

Thanks for all of the help everyone has provide me!


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## DAKSY (Feb 5, 2015)

Remove the embers & lava rocks & put em in a ziploc bag.
Find another cap. That one is for 5x8 DV pipe. You need 4x6-5/8.


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## Dirge (Feb 5, 2015)

Thanks for setting me straight Daksy. I'll wait until I have the stove at my house and figure out exactly where it's going before I start looking for pipe and gas line materials.

If you guys are willing to keep putting up with my questions, I'll be looking for some guidance on choosing the right materials and tips for proper installation when I get to that stage.

Aside from buying online and local hearth sales shops, where can you buy direct vent piping?


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## DAKSY (Feb 5, 2015)

If there's a chimney supply in your area, it'll probably be cheaper than a hearth shop.


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## Dirge (Feb 5, 2015)

DAKSY said:


> If there's a chimney supply in your area, it'll probably be cheaper than a hearth shop.


Perfect. I'll see if I can track one down in my area. That was exactly what I was experiencing - hearth shop prices seemed a bit steep.


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## Dirge (Feb 8, 2015)

Well, I've managed to get the stove back to my house without incident. Over the next few days I have a lot of information to digest to ensure that I move forward in the correct manner.

First off, since our basement is not finished, and may not be for awhile, my wife would prefer we put the stove upstairs instead because we'll be more apt to use it. I don't disagree with her, but it does make it a more difficult install. And leaves us with an eventual need for a heat source in the basement.

So for now, I'm digging around to learn more about some of the different pieces I need to put in place before I can hook the stove up. Any input anyone here can provide to steer me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated!

Here are the items I'm pondering:
1. Do I need a permit in my municipality to install vent piping?

2. The stove came with a 45° direct vent pipe fitting. Can I go straight out the wall or do I need a snorkel to do that? Otherwise I'll need to go up and out the wall. I'm not clear on the required H and V pipe dimensions shown in the manual.

3. I'm seeing contradictory information online for clearances from interior walls to the stove, and also exterior clearances from the vent termination to the gas meter (3 ft?) and heat pump/air conditioning compressor (3 ft horizontal, 3 ft vertical within 10 ft of compressor?).

4. I have a gas meter but no gas line into my house yet. I need to find instructions to walk me through installation of the gas line into my house and the connection to the stove.

5. Ideas for building an economical, yet attractive hearth pad.

Thanks for an insight you can offer.


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## Fsappo (Feb 9, 2015)

For permit, contact your local code enforcer.  For most of New York State, if you are installing a gas heater, running a vent and hooking up a gas line, etc, you need a permit.  Not sure what happens in PA

For venting, all of that should be clearly defined in the owners manual.  I guess I'll DL it and take a look, same with clearances.

I don't know ANYONE who is going to walk someone thru running a gas line.  Please, at least for this part, get a licensed plumber or wait until you can afford one.

For a hearth, whats your price limit?


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## Fsappo (Feb 9, 2015)

For straight from the 45 horizontal looks like you would need to use a snorkel


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## Heatsource (Feb 9, 2015)

I recommend going up inside the room, then out
alot cheaper than a snorkel

if i recall correctly you need 24" rise on LPG

Definitely agree with Fsappo, gas line is no joke


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## Dirge (Feb 9, 2015)

I apologize for exhausting everyone with my questions. I have spent a great deal of time outside of this forum researching answers for my questions as well. But the expertise of the people on this forum is invaluable. And I was looking for input from all of you to ensure I was heading the right direction.

I should have worded my questions differently. My lack of understanding lies more in the finer details of the installation work that needs performed. But I was seeking confirmation of some of the general information I had found because it seemed conflicting or unclear.

I'll try to be more specific.

Clip 62 (attached) shows "H" and "V" dimensions for the direct vent pipes. But I could not find a table in the manual with these values listed for a horizontal venting installation. There are written instructions for a horizontal venting installation earlier in the manual using a 2' vertical and adjustable 11"-14" horizontal pipe, but am I limited to that?

Clip 60 (attached) shows clearances from surrounding walls to the Santa Fe stove. These are much closer than some other stoves I had looked at. Particularly 1" from the edge of the vent pipe to the wall. I also found a clearance on inspectapedia.com (http://inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Direct_Vent_Chimneys.php) that said the distance from the vent termination to an interior wall should be 3'. If I follow that I will need more than 4" from the edge of the stove to the side wall. Hence my confusion.

Clip 61 (attached) shows the vent termination clearance "K" to be 3' from a mechanical air supply inlet (compressor), inspectapedia says it should be 3' above if within 10' of mechanical air supply inlet. Also in Clip 61, clearance "H" says the vent termination is not to be installed above the gas meter assembly within 3' horizontally of the centerline. Inspectapedia.com has a different clearance.

Clarity on these clearances is imperative for me to determine where I can locate the stove inside my house. I can't move forward until I establish this.


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## DAKSY (Feb 10, 2015)

*From page 11 in the manual: Minimum horizontal run is 9”.

1" is the correct clearance to DV pipe on the sides & below. 2" is clearance ABOVE a horizontal run.

Your building inspector will be guided by the criteria in the install manual.
Most of the ones I've dealt with have no background in DV installs, so they HAVE to use the manual.

Your statement about the "Vent termination to an INTERIOR wall" is confusing. The vent termination is OUTSIDE the house.
The thickness of the wall determines the clearance. Nobody has 3' walls unless they're living in an igloo.

Your building iinspector (AHJ) will have to make the call on the mechanical vent clearance...*


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## Dirge (Feb 10, 2015)

DAKSY said:


> *From page 11 in the manual: Minimum horizontal run is 9”.*



I've attached pg. 11 from my manual. I've read over it 3 times but I don't see where it mentions the minimum horizontal run of 9". Maybe I have a different manual than you?

In Clip 62 from my last post, there are "H" and "V" values. I had expected to find a table somewhere that specified, for instance, if your vertical pipe ("V") is 3' then your horizontal pipe ("H") should be X feet and so on. Is the Hearthstone Santa Fe limited to a 2' vertical pipe or can I use a 3' or 4' vertical pipe? And if so, does the length of the horizontal pipe change as the vertical length increases?
*


DAKSY said:



			Your statement about the "Vent termination to an INTERIOR wall" is confusing. The vent termination is OUTSIDE the house.
The thickness of the wall determines the clearance. Nobody has 3' walls unless they're living in an igloo.
		
Click to expand...

*
Please understand - that is not my statement. It is taken directly from the inspectapedia.com link I posted. I agree it is confusing. I thought it might be trying to say that the pipe penetration through the wall that leads to the vent cap should be 3' clear of interior walls. Yet my manual shows 4" + half the stove width (12.5") for the clearance between the DV piping to an interior wall.

I suppose my next step will be to consult my local code enforcement officer to inquire about clearances so I can establish what options I have for stove placement inside my home.


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## Dirge (May 3, 2015)

In case anyone is interested, I finally completed this project. The gas still has to be turned on and fine tuning to the stove operation will need performed yet. But the gas line is installed, the hearth pad built and the direct vent piping is together and connected through an exterior wall to the vent termination. I've included some photos. Thanks to all for their help and advice.


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