# Garn, Froling, or.....  Need advice and guidance



## BHetrick10 (Dec 14, 2010)

I know its my decision I am just hoping for some guidance as there as some, (a lot) of things I need to be schooled on.

I have been doing a lot of reading (30-40 hrs) the last few weeks.  I think I have decided to put an indoor boiler outside in a building.  I like the Froling and the Garn.  I also have some concerns on both of them.  

Here is my situation.  I just built a new shop 40 x 64 x 16.  Part of that space has a 2nd story 18 x 20.  There is also a room in the attic 20 x 24.  The main part of the shop is radiant in floor heat. I plan on maintaining the shop at 50 - 55 and on weekends when I am out in it working turn on an  air handler (not sure if correct terminology) in the corner to raise the air temp.  The other rooms I plan on keeping it cheap and simple with either cast iron old school radiators or hot water base board. 

In the near future I plan on building a house somewhere around 2,500 - 3,500 SF.  I would have a total of 5,000 - 6,000 of radiant in floor heat and about 1,000 of baseboard or radiators.   I will be heat the DHW with the unit as well.

The boiler room and the main floor of the shop are the same level, the main level of the house will be the same level of the boiler room.  What I dont know or understand is if the heating system itself needs to be pressurized, why or why not?  

The Garn rep recommended the 2000.  He said it is about 80% efficient. I would cost 14,168 plus freight (700 - 1,000) this includes the unit, flue and chemicals.  

The floling rep recommended the 40/50 according to there web site is up to 92% efficient.  This unit would cost 10,700m, plus storage (recommended 800 gal),  and flue.  Also how do I size the expansion tank and does it need a bladder in it or....  ?

OK something else I dont get the Garn has 2000 gal of storage and is rated and 318,750 BTU/hr.  Froling is rated and 170,700 and the rep said only 800 gal of storage?  Also the Garn rep said will radiant heat to figure 15 BTU Per square foot and the Frolling Rep said 25?  If this is the case the Froling seems a little undersized.  I living in central PA and told both of them this.  I am at work 10 hrs a day and dont want to deplete the hot water do to heating the DHW.

What I dont like about the Froling how expensive it may get to replace parts when they go bad.  But it is these parts that make the froling what it is. I may have to get a genius in to trouble shoot the Froling? The Garn is slightly less efficient but has a proven track record cant deny the simplicity of it.  If something ever does go bad it would be a straight forward fix.  I dont like how much power the blower motor draws either.  

Ok down to opinions and comparisons...  No matter what my boiler building will be the same size 20 x 20.  The Garn from what I can tell is easier to hook up.  With the Froling I plan on getting propane tanks and modifying them for storage.


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## pybyr (Dec 14, 2010)

If I were working from a clean slate and using radiant in-floor heat, I'd be really attracted by the near-foolproof simplicity of the Garn. 

Storage plus pumps plus controls that all get involved in interfacing a stand-alone boiler with storage could quickly eat up or exceed the price difference.  

About the only unavoidable downside that I see to the Garn would be if you anticipated being away for an extended period in cold weather and wanted it to provide heat right away upon your return.  You've got to raise the temperature of the full mass of water (at least part way) before you can start sending meaningful heat to your load.  With a stand-alone boiler & storage and proper controls, you can send the heat straight from the boiler to the load even if your storage has cooled down.


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## Como (Dec 14, 2010)

Lots of things to consider.

The first thing you need is to get a handle on your loads. With new build you can put in a lot of insulation before the payback makes no sense.

I would keep the heaters emitter to one type unless you have a very good reason. In floor, radiators and baseboard usually require different temps.

Very different technologies, your load sounds more Garn ish than the smaller Froling. What does your wood cost?


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 14, 2010)

The wood cost is my time.  I should be able to get enough from the land around me.  If not I can buy a load of logs (Told equivalent to 8 - 10 cord) for 1,000.  

The fast turn around time on the froling would be nice.  I just cant seem to figure how it would get the job done though.  I also dont understand why the Garn 1500 isnt big enough.  The rep said I would be much happier with the 2,000.

Does the radiant in floor need to be pressurized?


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## Como (Dec 14, 2010)

We can cross off ultimate efficiency by the sound of it.

I think you need to work out you heat loss numbers before you go further.


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## pybyr (Dec 14, 2010)

Here's another factor to consider: size and shape of each unit will accept.  Not one to base a decision on by itself, but something you may want to be aware of, especially if you are going to be harvesting or processing your own wood.

Downdraft gasifiers are somewhat choosy about wood size/ shape.  The big pieces (6-10" logs split only in half) that used to be the cat's meow for maintaining a steady burn in my old primitive wood/ hot air furnace would give my downdraft gasifier extreme indigestion (they jam and fail to move down into the coal bed/ nozzle area).  To keep my downdraft unit running at its best (and I tend to expect that a Froling would be similar) I really need to aim for a cross-section that, as someone put it, is about as big as a playing card.  That means more splitting/ handling.  I'm OK with that as I now get dramatically more heat from dramatically less wood.

I haven't run a Garn, but I do have the impression that once a fire is established, it's not very finicky about wood size/ shape.  That may translate to less time and effort at splitting/ handling.  But you'd want to run that by Garn and/ or some experienced Garn owners.

Just some more things to consider.


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 14, 2010)

You are correct about the wood in a Garn.  I dint mention that but is I suppose a selling point.  The rep said up to 30" long and 6-8" diameter seems to work the best.  That would save me some time.  I guess I didnt take that into consideration.  

I also didn't check into EKO maybe I should.  I didnt know that they have an 80 model.  It may do the trick as well.  I dont know about the price though.  They seem like a popular make.  What are thoughts on this?

I think the Froling is a unique piece of equipment that scares me at the same time with it technology.  I have a local dealer for them and that was part of the reason for looking that way.

Efficiency is somewhat important.  I am not home much as it is.  It will be interesting in finding time to harvest wood.  I own two businesses and have a rental property.  I also travel around a lot in the summer racing.  I like the idea of wood though.  It is cheap if you can get your own but time consuming.  I like the idea of not being attached to the prices of oil, gas, electric.


But like stated less splitting = less time maybe more wood but.... May just a wash on that one?

As far as heat loss goes I am not a heating guy and dont have a program to do so.  Would I hire someone to figure it out?  With house not ever started not sure how to do the calc on that one?


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## bpirger (Dec 14, 2010)

I have a Garn 1500, just installed it, and so far I am pleased.  I have about the same setup as you, but all radiant.  There are a couple of threads that are active (Garn Stratification and Garn Half filled...No leaks) as well as a ton of other with folks discussing their Garns.  Never heard of an unhappy Garn customer, save for writing the check.  It is a serious investment, but in my search, I decided the strong history and simplicity won my purchase.  It may not be perfect....but when you read some of the other threads, it sure sounds like it is much closer than others.  But, that said, there is always a learning curve.

Search for the Garn threads....and read them all closely.  

You idea to heat up the shop on weekends with an air HX is a good one....heating a big slab by 20 degrees will take a long time....I will let you know how long when I heat my 32x72x12 shop/garage up!  Not hooked into the system yet.  When you do everything yourself, seems like it takes a long time!  

Burning the Garn couldn't be easier....once the fire is going, you walk away.  Maybe you put more wood in in about hour to 90 minutes, maybe not...depends on your temps and what you need.  

New Garn controller is not yet shipping, and they are leaving us in the wind a bit currently....not supplying a controller in the interim.  Hard to find a relibale, inexpensive count down timer....but this should be a non issue within a month or so when the new controller ships...I HOPE!

Would I prefer the 2000? Yeah, I probably wood....it would extend the time between burns a little.  RIght now it is 15 outside and I just upped the controller to 74 in the house.  It is 72 now.  I suspect by morning the Garn water will be down to 120 or so...still enough to keep dumping heat in my radiant slab...which is 78 now and pushing 120 water through it (the max setting).  So in the morning I will fire.  

Heating DHW can be a bit of a pain if when you let the Garn drop down in temp...which you can for radiant.  Read the Stratification thread..,.it is well discussed.,   Just burn more often is one solution.

I'd buy the Garn again....if I had the extra cash I'd upgrade to the 2000 probably...but really it is just how long you can go between burns.

There's a learning curve on how to best load the wood to maximize the time to clean burn....I had smoke today for at least 30 minutes after a very full reload....then it got dark and I couldn't see out the window.  If I had loaded it different, I think within 10 minutes smoke would have been gone.  Things like that you play with and learn....

I'm happy.  I'd say estatic if Dectra would ship the new controller. 

Search the forum...you will learn many things.  I also suggest radiant any place you can.  Low water temps....and as I stand barefoot in shorts in my house now, on my 78 degree and rising slab, it is incredible....and so very stable in temp wverywhere throughout.  

The comment on wood size was very important to me.  Some of the smaller gassers only took 18" pieces....yuck.  My wood is cut to about 22-23, for my woodstove, and the Garn ideally really wants them longer.  My splitter is limited to 24"....maybe a future upgrade.  Not anytime soon though.  I do load the wood towards the back of the Garn and get better performance I believe....

Good luck!  I heard Dectra is having a sale on Vertical chimney Garn's in stock....heaterman had a thread I believe that mentions this.  Might be able to save a little....you will have to ask TWH.


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## djbutt (Dec 14, 2010)

I have a Froling with Storage in my semi finished basement and love it. 

I have never even seen a garn and only know what I have read on these forums.

To me the number one benefit with the froling is how living space friendly it is. It runs so clean with no smoke or smells, I think if you wanted to you could install it in a living room.

That being said I think if I was installing in an outbuilding or shop environment I would seriously consider the garn.

I also think 800 gallons is not enough storage for the froling unless your delta T is huge, like 100 degrees. To be more realistic it needs 1000 gallons minimum, 1500 or 2000 is even better.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 14, 2010)

BHetrick10 said:
			
		

> I know its my decision I am just hoping for some guidance as there as some, (a lot) of things I need to be schooled on.
> 
> I have been doing a lot of reading (30-40 hrs) the last few weeks.  I think I have decided to put an indoor boiler outside in a building.  I like the Froling and the Garn.  I also have some concerns on both of them.
> 
> ...


 If you need the heat output of the Garn the Froling won't match this. As a number have said you need to know BTU requirements. I had misgivings about Froling parts prices over a year ago, specifically the computor. Never heard of one going bad though, they seem to be as reliable as as an anvil. As for the refractory I don't read complaints on this either. The burn tunnel has the tangential entrance & doesn't seem to beat this up, the flue gasses just spin through this. If you are within the the Frolings BTU range I would vote for this, it is also pressurized. If not Garn. I don't want to step on too many toes here, I don't think the EKO is in the sale league as these two, Randy


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## mr.fixit (Dec 14, 2010)

I had -20* this morning and my house was at 70*,my shop was at 67*,my other shop was at 50*(storage room)and the garage where the boiler is located was 50*with just heat off of the boiler and plumbing.Over 4000 sq. ft. total but well insulated.Top of storage was at 165* and the boiler said "fuel" but had coals left. I think this EKO is one great little boiler and I also think the other brands mentioned on here are also. But I also think  the EKO is in its own class ,--Best value for your dollar.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 14, 2010)

mr.fixit said:
			
		

> I had -20* this morning and my house was at 70*,my shop was at 67*,my other shop was at 50*(storage room)and the garage where the boiler is located was 50*with just heat off of the boiler and plumbing.Over 4000 sq. ft. total but well insulated.Top of storage was at 165* and the boiler said "fuel" but had coals left. I think this EKO is one great little boiler and I also think the other brands mentioned on here are also. But I also think  the EKO is in its own class ,--Best value for your dollar.


 No offense, my Atmos doesn't even have the firetubes your EKO has. Glad it's working well for you, Randy


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## Como (Dec 14, 2010)

Bear in mind that there are lots of Froling's and similar boilers out there, just not so many in the US. They have a large user base.

It is going to take time and money for Froling etc to role out their dealer network, as it did BMW etc. It's a big country.


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 14, 2010)

If I knew that the froling would work I think I would go that route.  Seems real user friendly and efficient.  I am scared of a 10,000 + dollar mistake though.  I like how this style of boiler can pick up and go if the house is cold and bypass the storage.  

This is what I dont like about the garn.  You cant bypass the storage.  At the same time that is what makes it a Garn.  Real simple just a little less efficient, but it is not as picky as what you feed it.

I was told a Solo 60 may work rated at 198,xxx BTU/hr.  They seem to have a good track record?

How are you guys doing the heating calcs?

Thanks for the replies


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## mr.fixit (Dec 14, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> mr.fixit said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just had to get my .02cents in for once.Not offended one bit.All boilers have good and bad points-- kinda like the Ford,Chevy,Dodge debate.Everyone has their own thing.The one thing about the eko and other "simple" boilers is just that-- they are simple with little electronics to fail.I have no backup other than a 33 year old oil furnance in the house.$300 to $350 and I can have an extra controller and fan on hand just in case.That being said I should get those ordered!


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## Como (Dec 14, 2010)

At the moment you are just looking for a guide, get you in the ball park.

If you know your past fuel bills, the Garn site has a not bad couple of spreadsheets. I put my numbers in and they were 10% adrift of a full blown room by room calc that a pro had done to size radiators.

http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/BTUCalculator.aspx Simple but gives you an idea.


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks for the link.  I think I am going to try to get a contractor in to calc to building and estimate for the house.   I live in the boonies where people dont even know what gassification is or how storage is supposed to work. (I didn't know much until I started reading here.  Since I have done a lot of reading and learned a lot.)  I did the 25 BTU per SF and filled in the chart.  The chart said my building doesn't require 25 BTU/SF, it says about 22.  I know not much difference but it adds up.  Either way it looks like the Froling is out of the picture.

I did look at a Froling in operation tonight.  Looks like a nice piece.  It had my name all over it to bad it doesnt have a big brother  :long: .

He had a package deal on a solo 60 usually sells for 10,579.  He has it discounted to 8,500 no shipping charge.  I got looking and this unit is only 75-80 percent efficient, with a 6 cubic foot fire box.

I have a hard time believing that the Garn is 809 % if the solo is only 75-80 when you can adjust the air setting on it.  From what I gather you just turn the Garn on and chuck in some lumber.

The more I look the more the Garn Stands out.  The solo may be big enough to get the job done though and would be able to "heat up" faster if the boiler was cool, cold.  I think I can come up with a storage system for about 4,000.  This makes the solo a lot smaller and less expensive option.  

I feel like this is one of the hardest decisions I've had to make.  I dont want to buy an expensive piece of equipment and it not last or function like I think it should.


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks for the link.  I think I am going to try to get a contractor in to calc to building and estimate for the house.   I live in the boonies where people dont even know what gassification is or how storage is supposed to work. (I didn't know much until I started reading here.  Since I have done a lot of reading and learned a lot.)  I did the 25 BTU per SF and filled in the chart.  The chart said my building doesn't require 25 BTU/SF, it says about 22.  I know not much difference but it adds up.  Either way it looks like the Froling is out of the picture.

I did look at a Froling in operation tonight.  Looks like a nice piece.  It had my name all over it to bad it doesnt have a big brother  :long: .

He had a package deal on a solo 60 usually sells for 10,579.  He has it discounted to 8,500 no shipping charge.  I got looking and this unit is only 75-80 percent efficient, with a 6 cubic foot fire box.

I have a hard time believing that the Garn is 809 % if the solo is only 75-80 when you can adjust the air setting on it.  From what I gather you just turn the Garn on and chuck in some lumber.

The more I look the more the Garn Stands out.  The solo may be big enough to get the job done though and would be able to "heat up" faster if the boiler was cool, cold.  I think I can come up with a storage system for about 4,000.  This makes the solo a lot smaller and less expensive option.  

I feel like this is one of the hardest decisions I've had to make.  I dont want to buy an expensive piece of equipment and it not last or function like I think it should.


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## kabbott (Dec 15, 2010)

mr.fixit said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My .02 cents... The Eko is a good boiler judging from the number out there... BUT I would not even consider it for one reason... Biomass has induced draft in
similar design. Almost bought one until I saw the Varmeboronen. If you want simple it's hard to beat, NO electronic controller at all, Just old school temp sensors 
and a couple relays. Also way easier to clean than any other boiler I looked at. I think most will be very happy with any of the above mentioned boilers.
I also would not pin my decision on efficiency numbers... they are all over the place. If your gassing with no smoke and 350-450 degree stack temps your
getting the bulk of the heat out of the fuel... anything more is just bragging rights... %-P


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## Como (Dec 15, 2010)

I guess the comparison is with vehicle engines, to get higher efficiency you need a lot more complications. And a car engine is going to be a lot more complicated than any wood boiler.

However there is not a common fuel price so the cost/benefit becomes more arguable.

I have no doubt that the Froling's etc are more efficient than others, and there is something about having he fanciest one on the block.

Just a thought, when I was talking to contractors who were not familiar with wood, I found they were with solar. So describing it as akin to a solar source, except you control when the sun shines, worked wonders.


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## bpirger (Dec 15, 2010)

Before I decided Garn, I was going with a BioMass 60 myself.  Firebox could take a good size log and it appeared well built and relatively simple.  The one drawback to the Garn....we don't get to see that gassifying torch!  Someday I'll have to stop by and actually see this myself.  I think the BioMass had a little window into that chamber so you could see the torch activity.  Now that would be cool for show and tell!  

As for heating up the Garn.....Within an hour or so, I'll get a 25-30 degree temperature rise.  If your water is at 50F this still means a couple of hours.  But if you are at 100, and have radiant, you'll be heating farily quickly.  Radiant though (my slabs anyways) take hours and hours to move....up or down...so your concern there is certainly valid.  

My wife fired the Garn this morning (again!), and we went from 120 to 155 in about 90 minutes....just in time for me to crawl out of bed to take a hot shower!   

She's gotten into turning up the tstat to 74 or so, which brings the floor up to about 83.  Now an 83 degree floor feels great on the feet, especially when coming back in from plowing the long driveway on the 4-wheeler.  Melts all the snow, water is gone in just a few minutes, and boots/gloves are nice and warm already for the next trip outside.  Have to love radiant....


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## Nofossil (Dec 15, 2010)

I haven't owned either the Garn or the Froling, but I've spent a fair amount of time crawling around inside both of them. They are pretty different beasts. Which one's better depends on your preferences. My observations:

The Garn is like my John Deere dozer - solid, simple, almost brutally functional. Not much to go wrong.

The Froling is like my RX-7 twin turbo - sleek, elegant, sophisticated, and very high performance.

I like them both.

The Garn is not pressurized and comes with its storage built in. That might be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on the situation. The Froling goes to great lengths to make lighting easy and to make sure smoke doesn't escape. It uses lambda sensors to optimize the burn. You get to pick the amount of storage that you want and decide where to put it. These features might be really valuable to you, or not.

In my basement, I'd take the Froling in a heartbeat (anybody offering one?)

If I had a heavy equipment maintenance barn, I'd do the Garn in a similar heartbeat.

There certainly isn't any universal right or wrong answer. Like I said, I like them both.


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## djbutt (Dec 15, 2010)

nofossil said:
			
		

> The Garn is like my John Deere dozer - solid, simple, almost brutally functional. Not much to go wrong.
> 
> The Froling is like my RX-7 twin turbo - sleek, elegant, sophisticated, and very high performance.



The Bulldozer to Sports car analogy is perfect.

One more plus for a froling in an out building is with the new Froling visualization 3200 software you can run and monitor the boiler and storage from a PC and if networked from any location.


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## dogwood (Dec 15, 2010)

BHetrick, you might look through some old posts to get references to some heat loss online calculators. There are some better ones and some more simplistic ones. I ended up doing five or six different ones and found out where the results clustered. I did get some widely variable results. I trusted my own results rather than going by a professionals alone since my propane furnace was severely undersized by our heating contractors calcs. You would at least have something to compare with your professional's results. I'd forward you what I had downloaded if my old computer hadn't crashed and I lost everything on it. There was a heat loss calculator on a CD accompanying the Siegenthaler hydronics book you may be able to check out from your library or get on interlibrary loan. You definitely can find the references to others if you do a search of old posts. There's definitely more to it than multiplying out a set number of BTU's x's your square footage. You have to take into consideration your location, ceiling heights, number of windows, insulaltion, if you have a basement or not etc. If you start out with a miscalculation of your heating needs for your home at your location you might set yourself up for an expensive mistake. You also have to consider if you might expand your home in the future or any other future heat load additions. The math is straight-forward and it really doesn't take much time with online calculators. I'm sure some others could recommend the heat-loss calculators they used. Slantfin had a good one that was a little hard to locate after they took it offline, but I found it somewhere. Sorry I don't have the links anymore. 

Mike


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## Floydian (Dec 16, 2010)

I think the third edition of "Modern Hydronic Heating" is out now. the second edition came with free software that has the academic version of Siegenthaler's heat loss calculator. I like it more than any of the free online calculators I used. It matched up real well with the calcs I did by hand whereas most of the online calculators were giving me close to double the heat loss numbers. Might cost you $150 or so and you'd have THE book.

Noah


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## dogwood (Dec 16, 2010)

Try this link to the Warmly Yours heat loss calculator. I just tried playing around with it and it looked pretty good. http://www.warmlyyours.com/hlc/room/index_main

Mike


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## jebatty (Dec 16, 2010)

I did a heat loss calc on my new shop when the building was planned and came out with 35-40,000 btuh at -30F. During the last 25 hours I drew heat only from storage, and was able to determine actual btuh with this result:

Ave outside temp: +9F
Ave inside air temp: +57F
Ave floor temp = +61.7F
Storage start: 164F
Storage end: 122F
BTU's drawn: 42 x 1000 x 8.34 = 350,280
BTUH = 14,011

If I keep the building any warmer, it gets too warm to do my shop work. If and when we hit the -30F this winter, it will be interesting to see how close my heat loss calc actually was.


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## Como (Dec 16, 2010)

Could you go back an re calculate using 9 as your low instead of -30?


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## Tennman (Dec 16, 2010)

Here's another data point in your decision process. I'll summarize my story. Went to pick up a new EKO 60 and saw the BioMass 60 with many design advantages, but far less reliability history in the market. Now in second year of operation with a properly installed underground system, I love my system. Night and day from my first year of operation (read my story in the underground sticky). The draft fan, domed upper combustion chamber to reduce smoke, really nice ceramics, door seals, and that wonderful window in the lower door. I just don't know what I'd do without that window into the gassification chamber. The color of that glow (or lack of glow) immediately tells me just about everything. I may or may not add storage later. For me I don't mind tending the boiler and fortunate to have people at home most of the day but really hate starting a new fire. Just me. So at the moment I'm still debating adding storage and where we live our heating season is much shorter than most of the posters here. SO, absolutely glad I went BioMass..... BUT, what I'm learning this season is the down draft design seems to be happier with smaller splits and attention to ashes at both ends of the upper chamber to reduce the occurance of bridging. If I put bigger logs in the upper chamber, the occurance of burning all the fuel around the nozzle (bridging), which is indicated by faint blue smoke, and lower efficiency (cooler exhaust to lower chamber), all happens more frequently. Which requires more splitting and/or more attention... which all boils down to TIME. Knowing what I know now would I go Garn vs the BioMass, EKO, Atmos, etc? I'd probably still go with the BioMass because of our mild and short heating season. BUT if I was 300-400 miles further North I'd probably really like the convenience of chunking in a big ole log and forgetting it for a while and accept the longer payback with the Garn. If you really don't have to worry with splitting as much that's a huge time saver and with integrated storage so much the better/easier. For your point of reference, we're heating about 4800 drafty sf with the 60 sitting in a boiler barn slightly smaller than what you have. Ya got the bucks, seems like all Garn customers are real happy. Since this was a DIYer project, doing modules and in stages let me spread the financial pain. Best Wishes.


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 16, 2010)

I think I am going to go the Garn route.  Either way the final price would end up close to the same on maybe the Garn less?  Storage gets expensive.  We dug today for concrete.  If things warm up next week we are going to pour a pad for the Boiler shed.  I'd ideally like the shed to be 24 x 18 but the little lady said it was talking up to much of the yard.  As if the yard is small or something?  I have enough grass to mow.  Any how the shed is down to 24x 12.  It should give me and 5 cord inside if I did my math right.  I may only put the four wheeler, and things for dealing with the fire in it and a lean to of the side for wood?


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## bpirger (Dec 16, 2010)

If you want to put a Garn, a 4wheeler, and 5 cord of wood in a 24x12 shed, I sure hope it is at least 3 stories high and you plan to move lots of wood upstairs!     A garn is big and will take up considerable room.  I think the final dimiensions of my Garn cube (the box around the garn with all the insulation) is about 8' wide, by 9'6" long, and just under 8' high.  Remember you have a HX somewhere in this shed (or maybe in the house), you have some other plumbing, you want to be able to access this plumbing, etc.  

I could likely fit 2 full cords in the building if I wanted to pack it rather full....but I don't think I could fit the 4wheeler in there, at least not and move around nicely.

Just some thoughts....


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 17, 2010)

bpirger said:
			
		

> If you want to put a Garn, a 4wheeler, and 5 cord of wood in a 24x12 shed, I sure hope it is at least 3 stories high and you plan to move lots of wood upstairs!     A garn is big and will take up considerable room.  I think the final dimiensions of my Garn cube (the box around the garn with all the insulation) is about 8' wide, by 9'6" long, and just under 8' high.  Remember you have a HX somewhere in this shed (or maybe in the house), you have some other plumbing, you want to be able to access this plumbing, etc.
> 
> I could likely fit 2 full cords in the building if I wanted to pack it rather full....but I don't think I could fit the 4wheeler in there, at least not and move around nicely.
> 
> Just some thoughts....



I ment either the four wheeler or wood not both.  Needless to say when she went to work the shed got bigger ;-), but only a little .  I dug the top soil out of the way.  Tomorrow during daylight I am going to stake out the shed and see if I have anymore digging.  Took a little while the frost is down about 6-8".    The building is 25 x 14 I the garn will be parallel with the 25' side.  I am going to leave 3' behind the garn for servicing (Check periodically for water, and exhaust leaks.  I figure I should have about 5.5' between the front of the garn and to door.   I will mount my equipment on the 5.5' wall opening and could also wrap it around the corner that some of it would be beside the door.  Than on the side I should have a 24' x 5' wood storage area.  This would give me enough room for 5 cord inside.  Off the back side (25' length) of the shed I am going to extend the roof out 10' past the side to keep the rest of the wood under it.  I have 4 6" electrical pvc sweeps stubbed up into the shed to run my water lines in.  One is for the house one is for the garage and the other two...maybe a pool or hot tub.  Never hurts to plan ahead.  The one 6" conduit goes from the boiler shed to the garage and comes up through the floor in the garage where my radiant manifold is going to be.  It worked out real nice.  I don't have to worry about water getting into my  PEX insulation.  I  just pulled the 4" corrugated pipe with the PEX in it right thought the 6" conduit chase.

Where does everyone else keep there four wheeler, cart, log splitter, and other lumbering equipment at?


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## sdrobertson (Dec 17, 2010)

[quote author="BHetrick10" date="1292570886]Just some thoughts....[/quote]

Where does everyone else keep there four wheeler, cart, log splitter, and other lumbering equipment at?[/quote]

I try to keep all that equipment at my house, but it should stay at my father's as he owns most of it


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## bpirger (Dec 17, 2010)

Not sure what you are using for your pex lines, but there is a good sticky on the subject.  Beware of the pipe wrapped in a few layers of the bubble wrap.  I ended up using the microflex from this warm house...It won't fit inside a 6" conduit...at least not easily, and I don't think at all.  I don't know about other stuff.....

Sounds like maybe you have already verified you are all set with this.....

Sounds good!  Have you ordered a Garn?


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 17, 2010)

The Garn is not ordered yet.  I spoke with Jim Saufferer about the Garn last week.  They were going to send me a formal quote.  I didnt receive it yet to order the Garn.


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## Como (Dec 18, 2010)

There was mention on another thread that they have deals on stock items and a suggestion that prices may change 1/1.


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## NP ALASKA (Nov 25, 2011)

BHetrick10 said:
			
		

> If I knew that the froling would work I think I would go that route.  Seems real user friendly and efficient.  I am scared of a 10,000 + dollar mistake though.  I like how this style of boiler can pick up and go if the house is cold and bypass the storage.
> 
> This is what I dont like about the garn.  You cant bypass the storage.  At the same time that is what makes it a Garn.  Real simple just a little less efficient, but it is not as picky as what you feed it.
> 
> ...



I was concerned about the money aswell, after studying long nd hard I am looking at the Froling P4 pellet stove whihc is 21K+++ delivered to alaska. Then I have to figure out storage tanks nad install everything. I taking a huge chance with that cash but have looked all over and Froling is strong overseas, lots of installations with minimal probelms. You get waht you pay for, I love my Ford truck but my wifes Toyota has 4 times the miles and my truck has been to the shop 4 times more than her toyota that has never been in the shop just rolled over 80K. BMW and Benz are expensive but run for ever. Again I think its good gamble for me...
Good luck

Regards,


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## BHetrick10 (Nov 25, 2011)

I had forgot about this topic.  I guess I never really said what route I was taking.  Well the Garn showed up on Monday.  Now the fun begins.  I have a lot of work to do before I fire it.   

I was at my uncles for Thanksgiving and were talking about heat.  I hope I made the right decision.  Seems I could have gotten a nice coal boiler for a lot less money and wouldn't have to worry about finding time to cut, splint, rank wood. 

What does everyone think?  

I work 60-75 hours a week.  Most Saturdays I race.  If I don't race I work.  Since my garage was built over a year ago I haven't gotten much done.  It still isn't insulated or sheeted.  I just finished wiring it last week.  Its hard to find time right now to do anything and I dont have a wife or kids.  Owning your own business ends up being my life.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Nov 25, 2011)

I think either the Froling or Garn log boilers were the right choice. I personally wouldn't think of buying pellets, I'd just run a condensing gas boiler then, Randy


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## skfire (Nov 25, 2011)

I myself pondered that choice and was all set to go with a garn2000, but the shed, added taxes, ug lines, hx, wet ground/French drains, size/btu need etc, led me to the Froling. Having said that, if I required a multi district heating arrangement and housing the unit was not an issue, the Garn was it.
Now, 2 months into utilizing the Froling , I have only positives to report.
In my limited knowledgable opinion, these two machines are hands down in incredible, so there is no bad choice.

Love looking at the lp tank stuck at 60% since September, only used 20 gals or so,when unplanned DHW make kicks on the lp boiler.
ZERO regrets and all money/hours/days/weeks of work well spent
Good luck with the install and enjoy the fun.
Happy thanksgiving to all
Scott


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## bpirger (Nov 26, 2011)

We are very happy with the Garn.  As for time in the day, I hear ya.  I built my own house, or am still in the eternal process, and the floors are bare (great for the radiant though), no staple up on the second floor, still have tyvek siding (on my third layer now), the addition/garage/shop is nearly wired, but not yet insulated, etc.  I'm sure it took me about 60 hours to plumb up my garn and get it tied in....so for me that was about 4 weekends or so.  Between work, the kids, there's only so many hours left...

Get ahead on your wood, yeah right, there's another big time sink.  That's what I've been doing lately, trying to get in next years now....


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