# Masonry Heater Build



## byQ (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm building a small house (~1300 sq. ft), and building a masonry heater. I don't know if there is much interest but I thought I would add pictures/info as this happens.

Intro: Masonry heaters are thermal mass units that weigh a lot (2000-10000 lbs). A fire is usually burned once a day (full rapid burn for 2-3 hours). The exhaust/smoke path takes a serpentine route through bricks/rocks. The btu's are absorbed into the rock/brick and slowly heat is let out over 24 hours, or so. Masonry heaters are very popular in Northern Europe (Norway, Sweden, Germany, Russia, and Finland). And they are starting to become more popular in North America, especially Eastern Canada and Washington state. Wood burners in US are just learning about them (and the other mass heater - rocket mass stoves)

I'm building a medium sized contraflow heater from plans purchased from the masonry heater association (mha-net.org). Contraflow means the air flow/exhaust in the heater goes up vertically and then down vertically, then out the flue. In contrast, a Russian heater has the smoke path going horizontally.

Here is the house plan I'm working off (sorry this is my working copy - it got rained on, burn marks from steel cutting, dirty and crumpled). Anyway the red box represents the footing for the masonry heater - 12 inches deep with rebar, 12" o.c.). I've tried to centrally locate the masonry heater, and get it positioned so the flue is close to the highest point of the roof.

The orange boxes are roll-out racks to store firewood - that is the firewood is hidden until needed 
	

		
			
		

		
	




	

		
			
		

		
	
 . I think I should be able to stuff a half cord under the dining table. Also notice the two "hot rooms" for collecting heat in their thermal mass from the sun instead of from a fire. I'll just add pictures/info during this build process.

Oh here are some photos of masonry heaters. Note the three different textures, stucco, natural stone, and brick. Q


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## rideau (Jul 6, 2013)

Sounds like an exciting project. I can't read your plan, even enlarged.  I really don't think you can count on storing 1/2 cord under your dining room table, even if it is a face cord you are talking about.  That's an area of 4 feet by 4 feet by 16 inches.  Is you table even 4 feet wide?  Where are peoples' legs going to go?  You don't want to spend your life being uncomfortable while you eat.  That is a lot of wood to store indoors (bugs).  Plus a bit inconvenient both storing the wood under there and getting it out.  If you have kids, food gets under the table...and if you have pets they love to lie under tables....Anyway, seriously think about that idea.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 6, 2013)

What about surrounding an existing EPA stove with a few ton of masonry. In close proximity, since the distance to NON combustables is essentially about zero. than would be a relatively easy project for a DIYer. I thought of this as my stove produces way too much heat for the 18x18 foot room its in and the room is usually in the 90s when stove is going.


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## byQ (Jul 6, 2013)

Moderator, this doesn't appear to be the right section for masonry heater stuff.  Is it possible to start a mass heater forum to include masonry heaters and rocket stoves/rocket mass stoves?


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## begreen (Jul 6, 2013)

This is fine. Fireplaces are included in the hearth section. Keep us posted on your progress. We all are familiar with masonry heaters. I'm eager to see what you create.


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## Trilifter7 (Jul 6, 2013)

I love the natural stone look with the black glass doors! Beautiful heater!


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 6, 2013)

Do these types of wood heaters actually burn the smoke? IF not then they are not as efficient as touted. Id think you would need a way to introduce superheated fresh air into the flue gas stream somehow the way the EPA stoves do.


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## webby3650 (Jul 6, 2013)

They do achieve secondary combustion and produce very little, if any smoke. It's a very cool idea, but it comes at a very large expense and loads of time. Someone posted a video a few days ago of a fireplace conversion to masonry heater. It's very cool! But after 5 weeks, 10,000 lbs of stone, a structural engineer, heater designer a heater mason and probably $40,000, it only reduced their oil consumption by 20%! A free standing stove would have taken 1 day, $4,000 and could produce 100% of their heat. It just seems more like a novelty to me, not real practical for people.

There is a very cool on at the Chimney Safety Institute in Plainfield,Indiana. It's very impressive!


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 6, 2013)

Again, cant the same heat storage be achieved by building a cement or stone structure around a regular EPA stove. Im tempted to try this as my stove sits on a concrete foundation on the basement floor.


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## webby3650 (Jul 6, 2013)

I don't think this would be anywhere near the same kinda heat storage here. A masonry heater is made so the flue gases circulate around the firebox, then the super heated flue gases pass through several tunnel passages before going out the flue. Releasing most of it's heat into the stone. We are talking about no less than like 4,000 lbs here, it would be difficult to get that much stone around a stove, and there would be very limited exposure to the kind of heat that would be required to store usable heat.  
It very well could soak up a bunch of heat from the stove and then release it to slowly to do much good at all, especially in a basement.


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## Foragefarmer (Jul 6, 2013)

I have been reading ASTM E1602 in order to gain a firm understanding of the applicable codes and engineering involved in a masonry heater given that I have a good location for a medium sized one as well. I also look forward to your build.


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## Nick Mystic (Jul 6, 2013)

Our Jotul F600 sits on our hearth extension in front of an open fireplace with a block off plate installed. The F600 has about a six inch section on the rear of the stove that sticks inside the fireplace. The fireplace and chimney have over 6000 bricks in them that clad the cinder block structure inside that houses three tile flues. The entire structure spans three stories when you include the lower level of the house and the cathedral ceiling and loft area. As such, is provides a rather massive thermal mass for trapping and slowly releasing heat back into the house when I'm burning. I only installed the Jotul this past February, so I don't yet have good data, but the temperatures I recorded with my IR thermometer were impressive.

While this set up is not designed to work as a masonry heater, I think it works something like Seasoned Oak was considering. I'm looking forward to next burning season to get some better data on the heat generation I get off the structure. Here are a few photos:






The fireplace and chimney are eight feet wide and four feet thick. On the backside of this structure is our kitchen. After having a fire burning for a few hours I took some IR readings from the kitchen side of the structure and was surprised to see it was about 90 degrees while the house was about 72 degrees and it was about 30 degrees outside.


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## DevilsBrew (Jul 6, 2013)

Hey Q.  I'm a masonry cheerleader.  Please post pictures of your build.  When are you starting?


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## DevilsBrew (Jul 6, 2013)

If anyone is interested, there are plenty of masonry heater threads on this site.


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## byQ (Jul 6, 2013)

Hey Q. I'm a masonry cheerleader. Please post pictures of your build. When are you starting?


Thanks DB. Here is where I'm at now, working on slabs for 2 rooms that are south facing so they will be used to collect free btu's from the sun (black insulated thermal mass & lots of windows). I'm going to build cinder block walls in these 2 hot rooms (see pallets of cinder blocks). I will start digging out the 8' x 8' x 1' hole for the masonry heater in a few days, so I guess I'm starting the masonry heater build. Also, I got the masonry heater door back from the welder - the cast iron was cracked (see pictures). He welded it from the inside - looks good (only $170 total for this $700 door).


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## begreen (Jul 6, 2013)

How will the walls be insulated?


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## byQ (Jul 6, 2013)

How will the walls be insulated?


The slab floors in these "hot rooms" will be 3" rigid board (r-15) but the cinder block walls are uninsulated. These walls are inside the house - like a greenhouse. They collect heat from the sun and then slowly pass it into the main house. There will be roof overhand to block the summer sun but the lower angled winter sun will blast right into these rooms. I read some studies and it was found that black really absorbed radiant energy - about twice as effectively as most other colors. So they will be black.

Oh, do you mean the walls of the house? They will be of ICF (insulated concrete forms) construction.


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## Michael Golden (Jul 6, 2013)

Is this gonna be a half buried house? Saw in the plans sky tubes. Looking forward to the build!


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## Hogwildz (Jul 6, 2013)

Well ya won't have to walk far to take that morning piss.


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## webby3650 (Jul 6, 2013)

Nick Mystic said:


> The fireplace and chimney are eight feet wide and four feet thick. On the backside of this structure is our kitchen. After having a fire burning for a few hours I took some IR readings from the kitchen side of the structure and was surprised to see it was about 90 degrees while the house was about 72 degrees and it was about 30 degrees outside.


Just think how much heat is being pumped up and out through all that brick to the outside!


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## DevilsBrew (Jul 7, 2013)

What type of masonry are you using for the stove/heater?


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## byQ (Jul 7, 2013)

_ What type of masonry are you using for the stove/heater?_


There are several options for facing,
* common black stone, dense, ideal thickness of 3-4"



Bricks - 3 options,





And natural flagstone, used as a facing (1/2"-2" thick),







And here is the super duty fire bricks - notice how large they are compared to a common brick. They are dense weighing 10-12 lbs each. The four lower rows (about 70%) are #1 arch which means 3" on one long end and 2.75" on the other long end. The other 30% are straights. I figure I can use some of the arched ones but they must be positioned in such a way as to cancel out the arch/angle or put in places where the arch doesn't matter. The masonry heater's firebox is double walled so the arched bricks will go there and the angles will cancel each other out.


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## byQ (Jul 7, 2013)

Fire bricks,





I'm leaning towards a natural stone facing. The gray field stone probably. And maybe use the bright green stone as accent. The cut square/rectangular gray/greens would look nice, though.


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## Mackj (Jul 7, 2013)

Very cool!  I have a friend with a similar set up and am very impressed.  I hunt his property and will often visit after a morning hunt.  It is always toast and usually it is residual heat from a fire the previous evening!  I did not understand what he had there when I built my house.  My insert is cool but his set up is great,I have been considering what it would take to do this at my place.  It would be a big project!  Wish I would have considered it when we built.  Looking forward to seeing your project unfold!


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## DexterDay (Jul 7, 2013)

Here is my subscription to the thread. I find this very interesting. 

I wish you the best of luck and look forward to the finished product and your review after the1st yr.


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## lumbering on (Jul 8, 2013)

DexterDay said:


> Here is my subscription to the thread. I find this very interesting.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck and look forward to the finished product and your review after the1st yr.


 
Ok, I'm in too. You've been so enthusiastic about the masonry heaters, I'd like to see this through.


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## Todd (Jul 8, 2013)

Very cool project you have going there. If I were building a new home I'd also like to build it around a masonry heater. Good luck, keep us posted.


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## byQ (Jul 8, 2013)

In the morning, I'm ready to start digging out the hole for the masonry heater footing - 8' x 8' x 1' deep with #4 rebar 12" on center. I've only got to go down 4" because I will be building up with sand and insulation for the rest of the house slab. I'm going with 3" rigid board insulation on bottom and sides of the hole. The rigid board is 8' x 2' x 1.5" thick.




My firewood collection is starting to expand. I've started cutting smaller (12"-16") and thinner (3"-5") for the masonry heater firebox. Lodgepole pine front pile to the right, elm and fir front pile to the left, and I don't remember what's in that back pile (mixture probably).


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## Jags (Jul 9, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Again, cant the same heat storage be achieved by building a cement or stone structure around a regular EPA stove. Im tempted to try this as my stove sits on a concrete foundation on the basement floor.


 
Randy - the down side of doing this is potential harm to the stove. A free standing stove is designed to get rid of the heat it produces. If you box it in, the slow absorption rate of the surrounding stone/brick/etc. could easily over heat a stove.

Consider me subscribed to this thread. Very interdasted.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 12, 2013)

ID still like to come up with some solution to the stove overheating the room its in to the point where its unbearable,possibly a solution where water or stone or sand is involved to store some of that heat. Right now i move very large volumes of air past the stove and still i can get temps in the 90s in there.


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## byQ (Jul 12, 2013)

*ID still like to come up with some solution to the stove overheating the room its in to the point where its unbearable,possibly a solution where water or stone or sand is involved to store some of that heat. Right now i move very large volumes of air past the stove and still i can get temps in the 90s in there.*

That is a good question I have wondered about. Let's say you have 2 exactly the same houses except one has a concrete slab floor and the other has a wood floor on I-beams. Let's put 2 of the same wood stoves in each. In the wood floored house we put a lot of light objects and wood objects. In the other house we put a lot of thermal mass objects - like stone and bricks.  Does the house with more thermal mass heat alot slower and thus cool down a lot slower?


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## rideau (Jul 12, 2013)

Can't you put less wood in the stove and thus produce less heat?


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## byQ (Jul 12, 2013)

Well I've got the insulation in place for the masonry heater footing and the two "hot rooms" I'm building. What's the world coming to - it actually rained a little here in the desert and the insulation got wet - so I'll let it dry out for a while.
	

		
			
		

		
	




Hot rooms,
	

		
			
		

		
	




Hmmm... the sun



6 or 7 hot water solar panels,



And a slab floor. I should put that PEX tubing in the slab (hydronic heating) and run hot water generated from the H2O solar panels through the slab for almost free heat. The tubing only costs about $300....hmmmmm.


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## DevilsBrew (Jul 12, 2013)

byQ said:


> *ID still like to come up with some solution to the stove overheating the room its in to the point where its unbearable,possibly a solution where water or stone or sand is involved to store some of that heat. Right now i move very large volumes of air past the stove and still i can get temps in the 90s in there.*
> 
> That is a good question I have wondered about. Let's say you have 2 exactly the same houses except one has a concrete slab floor and the other has a wood floor on I-beams. Let's put 2 of the same wood stoves in each. In the wood floored house we put a lot of light objects and wood objects. In the other house we put a lot of thermal mass objects - like stone and bricks. Does the house with more thermal mass heat alot slower and thus cool down a lot slower?


 
Wait...isn't that what some do with soapstone?  Or am I totally lost?


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## begreen (Jul 12, 2013)

To a certain point. But if the stove is seriously oversized for the area heated even soapstone stoves are not a panacea.


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## DevilsBrew (Jul 12, 2013)

Q, how many people do you have helping you?


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 12, 2013)

rideau said:


> Can't you put less wood in the stove and thus produce less heat?


To some extent.But small fires dont last long and are not smoke free as they do not let the stove go into afterburn mode where the smoke burns and also produces heat.. But if i want a 10-15 hour efficient burn i must fill the stove ,then turn down the air all the way to the lowest setting,even at this low setting the stove will produce enough heat to keep the stove room temps around 90 and the adjoining finished basement will be about 84-85 TH estove is in an unfinished part of the basement. It does take this much heat to warm the entire 3 story 3000 SF house. With the third floor just around 70.  But it takes a lot of air movement to distribute it up 3 stories. IF i could store some of this excess heat somehow to even out these high room temps.


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## byQ (Jul 12, 2013)

*Q, how many people do you have helping you?*


I'm doing the work myself, although i hired a contractor for the footing. I would like to finish leveling the slab with dirt and sand, and then putting rigid board insulation and wire mesh on. Next, I could start on the walls. But I have to get the plumbing done first. And I need to run 300' of a 36" deep poly pipe from the well to the house and around in an orchard. Plumbing - oh boy. I think my building efforts are going to slow down.


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## DevilsBrew (Jul 13, 2013)

Impressive


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 13, 2013)

byQ said:


> And I need to run 300' of a 36" deep poly pipe from the well to the house and around in an orchard. Plumbing - oh boy. I think my building efforts are going to slow down.


2 ?  WHat is a hot room and what is the purpose of the 300' of poly. Sounds like a geo-thermal system.


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## Nick Mystic (Jul 13, 2013)

Webby 3650,
I missed your post earlier when you said, "Just think how much heat is being pumped up and out through all that brick to the outside!" in response to my set up with the huge brick chimney and fireplace. The entire structure is centered inside the house and only the top five feet of so of chimney is outside. I have a stop off plate inside the fireplace opening and the top of the flue for the main stove is also insulated and sealed at the top. So, I don't think there is much heat at all being lost to the outdoors. When I installed my SS flue liner I filled the clay tile flue with fiberglass insulation at the top of the chimney down as far as the roof level.


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## Nick Mystic (Jul 13, 2013)

byQ,
I'm not too familiar with pouring concrete. Did you say you are putting 3" of foam insulation under the slabs for the foundation of the masonry heater and hot rooms? Does that type of insulation remain stable with all that weight on it? I know it's called rigid foam, but can it actually support all those tons of weight?  Is that standard for foundation work?


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## byQ (Jul 13, 2013)

* WHat is a hot room and what is the purpose of the 300' of poly. Sounds like a geo-thermal system.*


What I'm calling a hot room is just a passive solar heat collection room. When building a house if one of the long sides is positioned so that it is facing south, and a lot of windows are put on this south side, the sun's rays will stream through the windows and heat things up. I'm manipulating this concept a bit more. The two rooms have thermal mass walls of cinder blocks. The sun's radiant stream passes through the windows and into the 4" thick cinder block walls. The walls build up heat and start passing it into the rest of the house. The walls also block the sun's strong glare.

Different colors are like doors for the sun's radiant heat. White is a color that only has an occasional door for radiant heat - so most of the heat isn't invited into the thermal mass. Black on the other hand is covered in doors for the radiant heat - so the radiant heat streams into the thermal mass and starts to heat it up. So I'll be going with black.

These rooms will each have a small entrance door. And I will put vents high and low so air can circulate. The winter sun because it is lower in the sky is invited to send its radiant streams into the room (when you want heat). The summer sun because it is higher in the sky is denied access to the rooms (when you don't want heat). This is done by roof overhangs. I don't know how much heat this will provide but it is free. Thermal shutters could be put on the inside of these south facing windows. So, they are opened in the morning, they let the winter sun in, and then as the sun is setting the thermal shutters are closed to hold in the gathered heat.

In a country setting, the poly pipe is just the buried hose that runs from the well to the house.


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## byQ (Jul 13, 2013)

*I'm not too familiar with pouring concrete. Did you say you are putting 3" of foam insulation under the slabs for the foundation of the masonry heater and hot rooms? Does that type of insulation remain stable with all that weight on it? I know it's called rigid foam, but can it actually support all those tons of weight? Is that standard for foundation work?*

I was surprised, too. But this is common practice. One would think the heavy weight would cause problems but I guess because it is distributed it works. I saw where in a super energy free house they had 12" of rigid board under the slab - rigid board must be strong in a compression sense.


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## rideau (Jul 13, 2013)

I put rigid board under my basement slab in mid 1970's.  It ha worked great.

My sister bought a 1950s home in Ottawa in the early 70's.  She build out the back of the home, to the south.  In the kitchen area she built a wall that had pella windows installed on an angle - it was about 60 degrees, and had slats in between the two layers of glass in the windows.  Those windows heated the entire house during the day in the winter in Zone 4.  In the summer the angle of the sun was different and the area did not overheat.  The slat blinds between the two panes were closed nights in the winter.  The National Research council wrote up the build when they realized how effective it was.  I have many times since wondered why more people don't do this.  VERY simple and quite cost effective.  You might look into it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 13, 2013)

ByQ 
Im familiar wiith the sun room concept as i enclosed  a south facing porch and made a sun room out of it and it lower my oil use (I had oil heat at the time) by about a tank(250 Gal) a year or about 20-25%. Sun room gets up to 100 even in winter if i dont open the house door and let the heat circulate into the house. Summer sun is overhead so it does not over heat.


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## WoodPorn (Jul 14, 2013)

I have an acquaintance that builds these (or versions there of) professionally, he calls them russian stoves. They are made of 100% Soapstone and beautiful to look at.
Good luck with this build, and keep us posted.


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## Tedinski (Oct 21, 2013)

Hello byQ!

How is your building project progressing?  I've always been fascinated by masonry heaters.
SOME day I'll be building.  I'd like to include a masonry heater as a central feature.


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 24, 2013)

An update would be nice.


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## Tedinski (Oct 24, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> An update would be nice.


 
Hello DevilsBrew!  It'd be great to hear your experiences with rocket stoves & such.  Perhaps in a new thread?   I'm very interested.

I'm in NW PA too!   Fortunately, just a little south of the real snow belt.


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 24, 2013)

Tedinski said:


> Hello DevilsBrew!  It'd be great to hear your experiences with rocket stoves & such.  Perhaps in a new thread?   I'm very interested.
> 
> I'm in NW PA too!   Fortunately, just a little south of the real snow belt.



Will do Ted!


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## byQ (Oct 27, 2013)

A few people have contacted me about how the masonry heater build is coming along. It sounds like I'm not the only one who wants one of these things. Besides a masonry heater, I'm also building a house. I've stopped building operations and will begin again in the spring. Anyways, here are some pics.




I'm going to cover the masonry heater with this light green 12" X 12" marble.







Here are some of the parts - clean-out doors, air grate, and a small ash grate.

A small MH would be 36" wide by 24" deep and 6' tall. A large one would be 48" wide by 36" deep and 7'+ tall. I'm going for a mid sized MH, say 40" wide by 30" deep by 6.5' tall.
And here is the footing/sitting area w/rebar for the masonry heater (centrally located which is best),


I'll update this post as I learn more about and get further along in the build of this masonry heater.


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## Tedinski (Oct 27, 2013)

Thanks for the pics!
That marble is going to be GORGEOUS.
Where did you buy the door, covers, etc?  Were they a kit, or did you get them separately?

And What.... No Oven?    (just kidding!)


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## byQ (Oct 27, 2013)

_Thanks for the pics!
That marble is going to be GORGEOUS.
Where did you buy the door, covers, etc?  Were they a kit, or did you get them separately?

And What.... No Oven?    
_
Ya, I'll probably go for an oven but I don't have the parts for one yet. You can buy all of the parts separately (or in kits) to fit your personal tastes and needs. I originally was going with a small 14" door, but 2 larger doors were discounted (one needed welding which later cost me $20 in welding repair) so I went with these larger fancier doors ($150 each). Here is where I got the parts. I believe there is a place in Maine that has parts, too.


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## Tedinski (Oct 27, 2013)

I've looked up similar hardware...  you found great prices!
Is the stove of your own design, or did you buy plans?
There are so many "how to" videos on YouTube, I think I could just about plan one out myself.  Devil's in the details though.


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## Tedinski (Oct 27, 2013)

Oops... I re-read your first post.   "plans bought from the masonry heater association".


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 27, 2013)

byQ said:


> A few people have contacted me about how the masonry heater build is coming along. It sounds like I'm not the only one who wants one of these things. Besides a masonry heater, I'm also building a house..


Not true Q. Most of us here would love to have one of those babies to warm out bones in winter but there are a lot of roadblocks. Its not like you an pick one up at home depot and wheel it in the door. Also with the weight factor,most likely has to go in the basement or a heck of a well supported 1St floor. just too many obstacles to overcome for the average dude nopt to mention the cost factor.And you are doing it at the perfect time while building the house it will live in. This is something i may try when i retire ,but no way will it get done before that.


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## NW Walker (Oct 27, 2013)

I've purchased a few masonry heater parts for various builds from North Stone Heat.  I can vouch for their great service and excellent product.  They carry Pisla HTT cast iron hardware from Finland which I'm really fond of.  Good stuff, and great prices for the quality.


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 28, 2013)

byQ said:


> A few people have contacted me about how the masonry heater build is coming along. It sounds like I'm not the only one who wants one of these things. Besides a masonry heater, I'm also building a house. I've stopped building operations and will begin again in the spring. Anyways, here are some pics.
> 
> View attachment 115927
> 
> ...



The marble & doors - breathtakingly beautiful.


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## byQ (Oct 29, 2013)

_I've purchased a few masonry heater parts for various builds from North Stone Heat.  I can vouch for their great service and excellent product.  They carry Pisla HTT cast iron hardware from Finland which I'm really fond of.  Good stuff, and great prices for the quality._


NW Walker, are you a masonry heater builder? Have you built one for yourself?


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## BurnIt13 (Oct 29, 2013)

As I dream about someday building a house, and maybe around a masonry heater....I wonder, how do you clean the masonry flue?  I imagine it goes left to right or up and down multiple times before it goes into the chimney and is exhausted.

Even though its super heated and creosote build up is unlikely...I would imagine ash and what not would accumulate over time?


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## Tedinski (Oct 29, 2013)

BurnIt13 said:


> As I dream about someday building a house, and maybe around a masonry heater....I wonder, how do you clean the masonry flue?  I imagine it goes left to right or up and down multiple times before it goes into the chimney and is exhausted.
> 
> Even though its super heated and creosote build up is unlikely...I would imagine ash and what not would accumulate over time?


 
That's what those square cast iron covers are for (in the photo up above).  They're the covers for the "clean out" at the bottom of the channels.


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## NW Walker (Oct 29, 2013)

byQ said:


> _I've purchased a few masonry heater parts for various builds from North Stone Heat.  I can vouch for their great service and excellent product.  They carry Pisla HTT cast iron hardware from Finland which I'm really fond of.  Good stuff, and great prices for the quality._
> 
> 
> NW Walker, are you a masonry heater builder? Have you built one for yourself?



I have not built a traditional one, but I have built many mass heaters using RMH techniques.  I could never afford to do a real masonry heater, so the RMH's suit me since I can build them for just about nothing using mud and recycled materials.  I do heat my home with one.  I am a finalist in the design challenge thing coming up and use Pisla parts on my Challenge stove.


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## Tedinski (Oct 29, 2013)

NW Walker said:


> I have not built a traditional one, but I have built many mass heaters using RMH techniques.  I could never afford to do a real masonry heater, so the RMH's suit me since I can build them for just about nothing using mud and recycled materials.  I do heat my home with one.  I am a finalist in the design challenge thing coming up and use Pisla parts on my Challenge stove.


Neat!
I, too, cannot afford a "real" mass heater.  I'd have to cut into my basement floor & pour a new foundation, just as a start.
How well have your rocket mass heaters lasted?  Do the 55 gallon drums burn out quickly (holes/rust in the top)?
Would you feel comfortable putting one in over a 4" concrete slab, or are they too heavy?

Sorry... lots of questions.   I'm interested.


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## NW Walker (Oct 29, 2013)

No problem Ted, we probably shouldn't jack Q's thread too much, so if we keep going maybe start a new one.  Weight on that concrete will be no problem, mine's on a suspended wood floor.  The barrels won't burn out for a long, long time.  Decades, I believe, since when it's hot there is no air and when there's air it's not hot.


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## Tedinski (Oct 29, 2013)

A new thread would be great.  I'll look for it.
Thx.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2013)

NW Walker said:


> I have not built a traditional one, but I have built many mass heaters using RMH techniques.  I could never afford to do a real masonry heater, so the RMH's suit me since I can build them for just about nothing using mud and recycled materials.  I do heat my home with one.  I am a finalist in the design challenge thing coming up and use Pisla parts on my Challenge stove.


Just what is an RMH heater? And how do you build it?


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## Tedinski (Oct 29, 2013)

RMH stands for Rocket Mass Heater.   They are extremely cool!
I've never built one, so I hope NW Walker starts a thread for discussion.
I'd kinda like to put one in my basement along the wall where the chimney foundation is.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2013)

THese things are as fascinating as a MH ,here is a good example of one.
http://www.richsoil.com/rocket-stove-mass-heater.jsp


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## Tedinski (Oct 29, 2013)

Those are some good videos.
Start checking through YouTube for Mass Heater,  rocket Stove, Rocket mass heater,   there are a LOT of interesting videos there!
Lots on large masonry mass heaters, too.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 29, 2013)

Tedinski said:


> Those are some good videos.
> Start checking through YouTube for Mass Heater,  rocket Stove, Rocket mass heater,   there are a LOT of interesting videos there!
> Lots on large masonry mass heaters, too.


Im startin to think you could take a couple steel drums and build a form and pour some concrete around them and have a mass heater in no time.


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## Tedinski (Oct 29, 2013)

I'd be worried about making it in concrete!
That'd be a little too permanent for my tastes. 
Perhaps large wooden benches filled with sand...


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## byQ (Oct 30, 2013)

I just found out from the Masonry Heater's Association that they will be building a medium/large sized contraflow masonry heater (without pizza oven) at the World of Concrete training/seminar in Las Vegas, Nevada, January 20-24. Specifically, it sounds like January 21 & 22 (Tu & Wd) is when the actual building will occur. They are going to build a separate pizza oven, too.



I think it is free (it was last year you just had to get a pass from the masonry heater's association). And you are allowed to help in the builds or to just take pictures and watch. They are building the Finnish contraflow measuring 34" x 52" x with a 22" firebox. It is said to heat a house up to 1800 sq feet. Kind of like this one in size,


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## begreen (Oct 30, 2013)

Sounds like a good place to cement relations. <ducking>


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## mellow (Oct 30, 2013)

Why is it every time I look at one of those I smell pizza.


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## Tedinski (Oct 30, 2013)

begreen said:


> Sounds like a good place to cement relations. <ducking>


 
BAD!  BAD begreen!   :D


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 30, 2013)

byQ said:


> I just found out from the Masonry Heater's Association that they will be building a medium/large sized contraflow masonry heater at the World of Concrete training/seminar in Las Vegas, Nevada, January 20-24. Specifically, it sounds like January 21 & 22 (Tu & Wd) is when the actual building will occur. They are going to build a pizza oven, too.
> View attachment 116256
> 
> 
> ...


 
I wish I lived close.  I would love to go.


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## byQ (Oct 30, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> I wish I lived close.  I would love to go.



The airlines are always offering cheap fares to get people to Vegas so they can lose all of their money gambling. They also have $25 a night motels/hotels for the same reason. I don't have to worry about gambling because it isn't a big pull for me. But I'll be there this year - I missed it last year.


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 30, 2013)

byQ said:


> The airlines are always offering cheap fares to get people to Vegas so they can lose all of their money gambling. They also have $25 a night motels/hotels for the same reason. I don't have to worry about gambling because it isn't a big pull for me. But I'll be there this year - I missed it last year.


 
Huh.  Really?  I will think about it then.  I would love to see a Russian stove up close.  I missed out on seeing the Dragon Heaters build at Seven Springs this year.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 30, 2013)

Iv been trying to find efficiency comparisons of a MH and a RMH. Have Not had much luck. Some of the claims by the RMH peopl are way out there. like 90% less wood needed and such. I seems the principal is the same though short, hot, clean burning fires and masonry radiating heat hours after the fire is out.


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 31, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Some of the claims by the RMH peopl are way out there. like 90% less wood needed and such.


 
PW is full of sh** so you have to take anything he says out of the equation.


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 31, 2013)

You might try doing some research over at donkey32.proboards.com.  Those guys know what they are talking about.  I will warn you up front, I've received a lot of mixed reactions to the experience over there.  Don't blame me.


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## JohnKoP (Oct 31, 2013)

This is a video of modern version of masonry heather. It's a DIY project for most . Older version has been in use for a hundredths of years in Poland and many European country's.  Most of them with glazed like almost a ceramic finish, mostly white. I do remember heating my parents home with them . Coal was used as a fuel. Once a day small bucket of coal. It was my job as a teenager , caring a coal and starting a fire. Worst part was taking the ashes out, you had to be careful not to get dust all over the place. Recently they coming back mostly in prefab form due to difficulty of finding skilled people that are able to build them.



Video has polish commentary .


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## Tedinski (Oct 31, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> PW is full of sh** so you have to take anything he says out of the equation.


 
Who is PW?  
a big rocket-stove advocate?


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 31, 2013)

Tedinski said:


> Who is PW?
> a big rocket-stove advocate?



A salesman.  I said enough.  He is not a member here.


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## Tedinski (Oct 31, 2013)

Okeedoke.  Nuff said.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 31, 2013)

DevilsBrew said:


> PW is full of sh** so you have to take anything he says out of the equation.


While watching on of the videos of Mr eyebrows and his wife Mrs well endowed loading their RMH they dont use twigs from their yard as so many claim to but hardwood chunks of dry wood,about 2 cuft of hardwood. I was thinkin well thats about what i put in my wood stove on most days in winter anyway so what is this 90% less wood deal.


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## Tedinski (Oct 31, 2013)

JohnKoP said:


> This is a video of modern version of masonry heather. It's a DIY project for most . Older version has been in use for a hundredths of years in Poland and many European country's.  Most of them with glazed like almost a ceramic finish, mostly white. I do remember heating my parents home with them . Coal was used as a fuel. Once a day small bucket of coal. It was my job as a teenager , caring a coal and starting a fire. Worst part was taking the ashes out, you had to be careful not to get dust all over the place. Recently they coming back mostly in prefab form due to difficulty of finding skilled people that are able to build them.
> 
> 
> 
> Video has polish commentary .




I've spent a bit of time in Poland.  These heaters are certainly popular!
Gotta wonder about all that refractory weight on those 4 little feet.  I'm betting this is on a first floor...  concrete underneath that nice wood.
You grew up in Poland?
Thanks for sharing.


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## DevilsBrew (Oct 31, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> While watching on of the videos of Mr eyebrows and his wife Mrs well endowed loading their RMH they dont use twigs from their yard as so many claim to but hardwood chunks of dry wood,about 2 cuft of hardwood. I was thinkin well thats about what i put in my wood stove on most days in winter anyway so what is this 90% less wood deal.



Imao.  You will have to ask someone with an RMH that isn't in their loop.  I know I use less wood cooking with a rocket stove.  I can't imagine from my limited experience that an RMH is going to use 90% less wood in a climate where winter temps dropping below 20 are the norm.  I do know the rocket stove is very efficient but I am also aware that individuals want to make money.

Mr. Walker could give you some great insight to living with an RMH.


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## NW Walker (Oct 31, 2013)

I can, and I'm happy to answer questions if you have them.  Ted asked me some via PM, and if anyone else has questions feel free to start a thread with them and I'll try to help.  I'm sure others will as well.  As for wood use, yeah, those claims are ridiculous in my opinion.  I am busting my butt like everyone else here trying to get three years ahead.  I have about 6 cords c/s/s right now and plan on using about 4 of those, and it's pretty regular cord wood.  Maybe split a little smaller on average.  I used anywhere from 7 to 10 cords with my old smoke dragon, so it's quite a bit better than that.  I've never had a good modern stove, I imagine I do a bit better than I would with one of those, although I really don't know for sure and wouldn't be totally surprised if they came out about even.  I think there are other advantages that make my heater a better choice for me, but....yeah.  Definitely don't believe everything you read about this stuff.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 31, 2013)

NW Walker said:


> I can, and I'm happy to answer questions if you have them.  .


Can you recommend a website that give honest information about these stoves? I guess the reason they are not more popular is most people dont want an upside down 55 gal drum exposed in their living room.It seems if this stove is so special their would be a kit or something to put one together. And i curious as to how this concept is different from a regular MH.


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## NW Walker (Oct 31, 2013)

The forum 'Brew recommends in post #82 of this thread is probably the best source for solid information, although there is a lot to get through to get to the heart of it.  Full disclosure, I moderate a sub forum there.  The book "rocket mass heaters..super efficient wood stoves..." by Ianto Evans is dated, but it gives a great overview of the whole thing and will give you the basics of the heaters, as well as show you how to build them in the most basic way.

My Design Challenge entry is an attempt to repackage this technology in a way that is more recognizable and acceptable to our American culture of wood heat, namely, it's in a metal box.  That addresses the barrel, but frankly, the barrel is perfect, free, and a great way to recycle and reuse.  Box stoves aren't much different to my eye.  (An aside: I think there are some beautiful box stoves, I just wasn't fortunate enough to own one.  My box stove was uglier than a barrel to me.)

Some of the differences are subtle and subjective, specifically cost and ease of install.  I would say that as a rule the front end of a RMH burns more cleanly than almost any other passive wood burning device, although of course there will be exceptions.  The largest difference is in use and feel.  With a quick to respond metal radiator the RMH gives instant, intense radiant heat that wood stove users will be familiar with.  In use, a RMH is lit when one is in the space spending time there and burned for 2-4 hours on average at about 6lbs of fir an hour to use my install as an example.  The intense radiant heat will heat the space quickly and feel like a wood stove, then when one leaves the stove is out and the mass takes over and holds the temps stable in the space.  In this way it is a unique heater, hot and cheery while you are there, slow radiant heat maintaining the temperature inside the space when you are not.  Masonry heaters tend to offer longer, mellower heating cycles with just the radiant heat off the mass, although doors with windows can add a bit of that fireplace cheer while they burn.  RM heaters typically are configured where the mass is a bench, and in this way conductive heat to the humans is an important feature.  My guests usually comment about how they feel like they've been in the hot tub after sitting on the bench for a while.  Some masonry heaters have this feature, but the clay/sand/straw bench is surprisingly "soft" feeling in both hardness and heat, so I think it beats stone or brick hands down.  

One difference that tips the scales towards the traditional masonry heater is output.  An RMH is a heater for a small space and is limited in output by nature of it's design, masonry heaters can be very large with large fireboxes and are capable of heating large spaces.  A typical American home will be much more space than a RMH can feasibly heat, although they make great alternatives for small homes, or smaller space heating needs within a home.

Those are my opinions on those questions, for sure there are other views.  If you guys have more questions please start a new thread, I've tried to limit my responses here but I didn't want to not respond.  Sorry Q, I'm trying hard not  to hijack your thread!


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## Tedinski (Oct 31, 2013)

I'll start a new thread right now.
We can discuss there...

Thanks for your info so far!


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