# Dont burn Bio Bricks in your Jotul.



## MountainStoveGuy (Oct 27, 2006)

Got the Email today from Jotul.. a little cut and paste.

"We've conducted a test of some of the biomass bricks available as fuel for
woodstoves that are currently available on the market.  The results of the
test indicate that there is a likelihood that over firing of a Jøtul
woodstove can occur with the use of biomass bricks as a fuel in Jøtul
woodstoves.  Jøtul recommends the use of seasoned natural cordwood as fuel
for it's wood-burning products.  If you sell these products please be aware
of the potential for over firing."


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## Marty (Oct 27, 2006)

It seems like this could be a pretty interesting topic.

Are modern EPA, UL, stoves generally designed to be difficult to overfire with natural cordwood?

I have not been able to get the Mansfield above -just shy of 600 degrees F- so far in the early part of my burning career. (Not that I tried too hard)

I'm sure chimney varations have a big impact on this but I wonder how wide a range of non approved fuels (like coal and kilm dried lumber) could be burned if you knew what you were doing.

Any opinions?


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## NWfuel (Oct 27, 2006)

We ALWAYS tell our customers to burn no more then 3 of the 8lb energy logs at a time for this reason in all woodstoves or fireplaces.
Thomas


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## Roospike (Oct 27, 2006)

What ever the outcome .......i know as we speak that the "biomass bricks" are getting worded in to the Disclaimer of the Jøtul Warranty . Its an easy way to say *"VOID"*


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## BrotherBart (Oct 27, 2006)

My bet would be that Jotul never dreamed anybody would be able to pack a firebox as densely as you can with the bricks. Pack an Oslo full of the things and you probably have as much wood in the stove as would be in my old Sierra 4.2 cubic inch firebox packed full using cordwood. Strong draft and match and bingo. Blast furnace.

Anybody using anything as dense as the bio bricks should build up slowly testing fuel loads before "loadin'er" and setten'er off". There is some cooling taking place with cordwood shucking moisture in the firebox. Not so with those bio-babies and the stoves probably can't transfer heat fast enough to hold down the temp.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Oct 27, 2006)

Once again, common sense prevails. You have to use that stuff in moderate amounts. Maybe this thread will educate some of the users of biomass bricks on how NOT to use them. Moderation is key. Jotul is making a blanket statement because some people will pack the firebox full and fire it off. That could be dangerous in any stove.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 27, 2006)

MountainStoveGuy said:
			
		

> Once again, common sense prevails. You have to use that stuff in moderate amounts. Maybe this thread will educate some of the users of biomass bricks on how NOT to use them. Moderation is key. Jotul is making a blanket statement because some people will pack the firebox full and fire it off. That could be dangerous in any stove.



Yeah and some responsibility falls back on the makers of the bricks. They all brag about how tight you can stuff a stove with the things.


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## Andre B. (Oct 27, 2006)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Time for the Bio-Brick people to add some water to their formuation??? Yes-sir-ree....WATER, the Universal Solvent.



If you read thru the info on furnaces for boilers 100 to 150 years ago you will find it was common to spray water on the fuel (wood chips, and even coal) as it went into the firebox.  Also some furnaces had steam jets blowing into the firebox to better mix the fuel gasses with the secondary air supply.  When it comes to burning stuff a fair amount of what is claimed to be new technology would be common knowledge to your great great grandfather.
_____________
Andre' B.


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## NWfuel (Oct 27, 2006)

Exactly, I read here on a post to load them up. I cringed when I read that and then thought to myself they might not burn as hot as the 8lb energy logs. We have known about this for 10 years now. The manufacturer should have this in print on all literture as the only warning besides storing where dry.


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## recppd (Oct 27, 2006)

I burned Home Prest Fire Logs last year (5 lb. compressed log) and they burned great.  Never had an overfire, even with 6 or so burning at once.  They're almost like a time-released tablet.

I haven't burned the BioBricks yet, although I'd like to try them.  From what I've read, they burn quicker and break apart as they burn - which probably results in greater heat output.  I surely would not "pack" a stove full of them unless I had the air turned WAY down!  

Ironically, I just had the top surface of my Jotul up to 709 degrees the other day after I started a fire and left the air open for a little too long.  No glowing red or anything like that, but it did get hot!  Seemed to take the heat with no ill effects, although I won't be letting it happen again!


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## Metal (Oct 27, 2006)

Quote from another thread by a manufacturer of BioBricks:

"I consistently get very long burn times. The reason for this is the size, shape, moisture content, makeup and density of my BioBricks. Many people initially say “hey, can’t you make these look a bit more like a log?” well indeed that is exactly NOT what is needed. How many of you have been frustrated by empty space inside your stove because of a log that only fits 2/3 the width of the hearth. Because my Bricks are flat sided and the size of house bricks you can pack them tight together to minimize airflow through the stack and fill every nook and cranny of the stove. Doing so at my home allows me to achieve burn times as long as 20 hours.

That’s why I like to say my fuel is “a new look at firewood”. Of-course it is not such a new look. The machines I use have been spitting out Bricks for 20 years and nearly every gas station in Scandinavia has a pallet of Bricks out front."

I think I can see why Jotul is worried!


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## wg_bent (Oct 27, 2006)

Once they start burning and expand...If you touch them with a poker, they fall apart and the firebox becomes an inferno.


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## Roospike (Oct 27, 2006)

"I" as in *"I"* * would think that if you (owner in general)*  had to pack said* stove to the point of needing bio brick style fuel to get , thus.... more heat or longer burn time then the stove is too small or the wrong stove in the first place.

* O' He(( .....I think its contagious.  :lol: ~  ;-)


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## Mike Wilson (Oct 27, 2006)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Time for the Bio-Brick people to add some water to their formuation??? Yes-sir-ree....WATER, the Universal Solvent.



Mmmmm.... infinite octane.... der wunderkraftstoff.

-- Mike


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## BioPellet (Oct 31, 2006)

My BioBricks(tm) are an intelligent high density, high btu per pound fuel source that has been used in Europe for 20 years before I brought it over for North America.  If you use soaked cordwood with 21% moisture then you will be real safe (assuming you can even start and sustain a burn) and real inefficient.  BioBricks make your wood stove almost as easy to use and efficient as a pellet stove.  

If you drive your car down the highway in second gear you will burn up your motor.  If you feed too much air to my fuel you may overfire your stove.  If you feed the same amount of air to properly seasoned cordwood at below 13% you will overfire your stove for sure because the density is less than my BioBricks(tm) and the surface area is much more.

I hope that I have not overestimated the capacity of Americans to understand what Europeans are up to in thier attempts to mitigate global climate change with alternative energy sources like my BioBricks.


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## webbie (Nov 1, 2006)

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." -
  --  Henry Mencken 

Hopefully, the inverse is not also true.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 1, 2006)

BioPellet said:
			
		

> My BioBricks(tm) are an intelligent high density, high btu per pound fuel source that has been used in Europe for 20 years before I brought it over for North America. If you use soaked cordwood with 21% moisture then you will be real safe (assuming you can even start and sustain a burn) and real inefficient. BioBricks make your wood stove almost as easy to use and efficient as a pellet stove.
> 
> If you drive your car down the highway in second gear you will burn up your motor. If you feed too much air to my fuel you may overfire your stove. If you feed the same amount of air to properly seasoned cordwood at below 13% you will overfire your stove for sure because the density is less than my BioBricks(tm) and the surface area is much more.
> 
> I hope that I have not overestimated the capacity of Americans to understand what Europeans are up to in thier attempts to mitigate global climate change with alternative energy sources like my BioBricks.



And so the reason that a Norwegian stove manufacturer is saying not to burn your bricks in their stoves is?


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## BioPellet (Nov 1, 2006)

...becuase it's Jotul US not Jotul Scandinavia


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## Marty (Nov 1, 2006)

BioPellet said:
			
		

> ...becuase it's Jotul US not Jotul Scandinavia


I'm willing to test them in a Hearthstone mansfield... how do I get some of them to Pittsburgh?


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## BioPellet (Nov 1, 2006)

I'm trying to set up production in PA, until then it is an expensive proposition.....I should have production occuring by March next year...


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## wg_bent (Nov 1, 2006)

Dylan said:
			
		

> Warren said:
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If you don't poke them, they burn fine for a very long time.  If you pack your stove with them, only the surface burns (with some difficulty)  and I'm not sure the firebox temps are as high as needed for quite some time to achieve a smokeless burn.

Consider this.  Pack your stove on top of a good bed of coals with a chunk of something almost  as massive as coal (biobricks will sink in water), all at once, surrounded by a burnable surface.  This is exactly what you get with them.  What happens to the temp of the stove?  The the bricks and the stove reach the average.  So 70 degree bricks, 500 degree stove...you get instant firebox temps of something around 300 degrees.  Now only the surface can burn.  Takes a while for the stove interior temp to reach secondary combustion temps.  

If you pack them more loosly, the problem is solves due to surface area.  I think it's like anything...You have to play with it to achieve the best results.  

Some observations: I do believe is that they burn very clean, almost no ash, No bugs, and you can get very long burn times out of them.  They're expensive,  they also don't burn very hot for a while if packed tightly, they are not any cleaner than wood since they do shed, and you burn your hands putting them in the stove in order to pack them correctly...Use gloves   Overall, a nice alternative to wood if wood is hard to come by.

An alternative perspective is that Presto logs (same technology, different shape) also work VERY well.


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## DonCT (Nov 1, 2006)

Where do you get Presto logs?


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## wg_bent (Nov 1, 2006)

DonCT said:
			
		

> Where do you get Presto logs?



Pacific NW.


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## DonCT (Nov 1, 2006)

Bah, that does me no good


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## wg_bent (Nov 1, 2006)

DonCT said:
			
		

> Bah, that does me no good



Sorry Don...I have a sister who lives near Seattle and that's all she burns...been doing it for 12 years.  Took one look at my stack of wood and said..."well, there's an aspect of wood heat that's very different from my world"


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## DonCT (Nov 1, 2006)

LOL!! I know the finace would like the idea of making the stove burning easier.

Still thinking of getting a pallet of the Bio's and use it mixed with my cord wood. I don't know if I would run it packed like they say.


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## babalu87 (Nov 1, 2006)

I cant wait until we all have to wear helmets while driving.

Looks like a few stooges bought the bricks and filled the stove to the brim and walked away?
Common sense isnt so common is it?

Don you are in a great spot to pick some up being in the same town as a major distributor.
I cant get them out here without paying through the nose for delivery.
We go to the wifes sisters house for Turkey day every year and I may rent a truck on a one way rental and pick up some pellets for a friend and bricks for my dad and I.
I have plenty of wood but having used the bricks as a trial I would like to have some stacked in the basement for the 2 day blizzards we tend to get nearly every year.


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## jldunn (Nov 1, 2006)

It might've only been a slight idiot. Like Warren said, they're great if you don't poke them. So you've got your biobrick fire going and it's starting to run down. You decide to throw another couple biobricks on the fire. Because it's hot in there, and you've always done it with cord wood, you give the new biobricks a light toss in. They break up the remains of the biobricks in there, maybe split up a bit themselves, and the fire takes off life crazy. Unlike when we throw in too many pine splits, we can't grab it with our fireplace gloves and run it out into the snow (Which I've heard of a few doing) since it's not really in a solid one piece form to grab.


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## precaud (Nov 1, 2006)

Marty said:
			
		

> Are modern EPA, UL, stoves generally designed to be difficult to overfire with natural cordwood?
> I have not been able to get the Mansfield above -just shy of 600 degrees F- so far in the early part of my burning career. (Not that I tried too hard)


Good question, Marty. I think we'd get a different answer from various manufacturers to it. What kind of wood are you burning? That's the variable that makes the biggest difference in my experience.

For instance, most of my wood supply is pinon pine, and the Morso naturally runs up to 750-800 degrees with 2 or more pine splits in it. That's just what happens - you can't control the burn rate of a low-density wood on a hot bed of coals. To get it to cruise in the 500 range, I can only load one split at a time. But if I use the crabapple that I have a little of, it's a complete different story. It's a denser wood and releases it's gasses much more slowly, and stays in the 450-600 range for the whole load.

I've experienced this with other stoves, so I was (naturally) concerned about this before I bought the Morso, and called them and asked them about it. The importer assured me I had nothing to worry about the high temps; that the only failures they've seen is from burning contaminated wood, especially salt-soaked. So I don't worry about it anymore.


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## NFreiermuth (Nov 1, 2006)

Very interesting

I have never seen or heard of these in Upstate New York.
Maybe those of us in the NY, MA, PA, CT, VT, and NH areas should look into these a tad further.
I'm game to buy some and give them an educated and careful evaluation.

As for overfiring, the manual for the Hampton says if you can see the inner steel begin to glow and/or the wood handle is too hot to touch, then you're overfiring the stove.  I have had the stove pretty darn hot, and still never met that criteria.

BioPellet, 
It looks as though you have a forum of willing/seasoned/educated testers for your future market of bio bricks.
So how's about a few of them for the Hearth.com gang???


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## Mike Wilson (Nov 1, 2006)

Distribution, my friend... Distribution.  We need to see these available in more locations.  I for one would definitely burn a ton if I could get my hands on some, but shipping from the great white north to here is too expensive.  We need to see a tractor trailer heading to NY somewhere.

-- Mike


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## recppd (Nov 1, 2006)

They're $285 per pallet (ton) here on the North Shore in MA.  I think I might buy a pallet to try them out.  Like I said in earlier posts, I burned (and still have some to burn) Home Prest Fire Logs last season and LOVED THEM.   Unfortunately they are now $418 per ton...


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## webbie (Nov 1, 2006)

Rail or ship are the only way to ship far with really low prices.....a truck would hold - what, like 23 tons, and figuring on 2 bucks a mile (my guess from long ago experience), that would be $1,000 extra to ship 500 miles, or about 40-50 a ton. Really not too bad....

There can be a BIG variation in freight prices depending on whether it is "backhaul" etc. - For instance, companies like Duraflame have deals to bring stuff from west to east pretty much at the trucking companies discretion - in other words, " instead of going empty, we'll pay 1/2 the normal rate".


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## babalu87 (Nov 1, 2006)

Mike Wilson said:
			
		

> Distribution, my friend... Distribution.  We need to see these available in more locations.  I for one would definitely burn a ton if I could get my hands on some, but shipping from the great white north to here is too expensive.  We need to see a tractor trailer heading to NY somewhere.
> 
> -- Mike



Its expensive to get anything to Orient Point, though not as expensive as it would be to get something to the Hamptons


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## Marty (Nov 1, 2006)

precaud said:
			
		

> Marty said:
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Thanks that explains a lot. 
Right now I'm burning this: http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/for/212708148.html I got the last 2.5 cords mostly oak I think. Nice guy had about 10 trees taken down in his back yard and rented a splitter. 
I realise there is as much art to this as there is science but it seems like the manuals are left fairly vague concerning stove opperating parameters.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 1, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Rail or ship are the only way to ship far with really low prices.....a truck would hold - what, like 23 tons, and figuring on 2 bucks a mile (my guess from long ago experience), that would be $1,000 extra to ship 500 miles, or about 40-50 a ton. Really not too bad....
> 
> There can be a BIG variation in freight prices depending on whether it is "backhaul" etc. - For instance, companies like Duraflame have deals to bring stuff from west to east pretty much at the trucking companies discretion - in other words, " instead of going empty, we'll pay 1/2 the normal rate".



Or do it like England's Stove Works does. Haul your stoves to the West coast and pick up a load of produce to haul back. They started out delivering their stoves and ended up starting their own trucking company Englander Transport, Inc. 

http://www.englandertransport.com/


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## webbie (Nov 1, 2006)

When I lived in Tn, we used to call guys like that "Tennessee Poker Players" - the idea being that they would start out with a farm, then have a machine shop there, next a trucking outfit - etc. etc - Talk about the American Spirit! That's it in a nutshell...and in Tn, they would always remain as Down Home as when they started out. No suits and pretension for these guys.....I think Englander is probably the same....


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## smirnov3 (Nov 1, 2006)

BioPellet, I think anybody serious about selling Bio-Bricks has to educate his consumers.

It sounds like they are diffrent enough to burn than wood that even seasoned wood burners are liable to make mistakes. And those will be blamed on the 'Bricks.

Not only do you lose a customer that way, but bad press can kill a company.

Maybe put a few pointers on the packaging, and a web-site with a tutorial on how to handle them (and test results from burning the 'Bricks in Cat & non-Cat stoves)


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## Metal (Nov 1, 2006)

Biopellet-Another idea for you would be to market your procuct to mass outlets as Chimenea/Burn Pit Fuel.  There are tons of city dwellers who have these on their back decks and buy their wood in tiny bundles in front of convenience stores/grocery stores.  A product like yours sounds like it would be perfect.


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## BioPellet (Nov 2, 2006)

Anton Smirnov said:
			
		

> BioPellet, I think anybody serious about selling Bio-Bricks has to educate his consumers.
> 
> It sounds like they are diffrent enough to burn than wood that even seasoned wood burners are liable to make mistakes. And those will be blamed on the 'Bricks.
> 
> ...



You mean like: BioPellet.net - instructions????


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## babalu87 (Nov 2, 2006)

I now have a need for three ton in SE Mass, need a local dealerthat sells by the TON not the bag.

Dont make me drive out there for three ton


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## recppd (Nov 2, 2006)

babalu87 said:
			
		

> I now have a need for three ton in SE Mass, need a local dealerthat sells by the TON not the bag.
> 
> Dont make me drive out there for three ton



Any luck with the dealers listed on www.biopellet.net ?  Like I posted, my local dealer (Saugus, MA) sells them for $285/ton.  Let us know how you make out.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 2, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> When I lived in Tn, we used to call guys like that "Tennessee Poker Players" - the idea being that they would start out with a farm, then have a machine shop there, next a trucking outfit - etc. etc - Talk about the American Spirit! That's it in a nutshell...and in Tn, they would always remain as Down Home as when they started out. No suits and pretension for these guys.....I think Englander is probably the same....



I think you may be right. A customer service guy kept calling me "buddy" when I called to ask some questions.


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## recppd (Nov 2, 2006)

Anyone who is familiar with the BioBricks please answer these:

What is the approx. weight of each brick?

How many bricks per pallet? (or per shrinkwrapped bag - appears to be 64 per pallet)?

Thanks...


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## BioPellet (Nov 2, 2006)

Warren said:
			
		

> Dylan said:
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Well, my newer formulation holds up much better to poking.  But wait a second - why poke????  The whole point is that with my fuel you don't have to touch the stove for 12 hours!  The days of fire tending are over guys!  The bricks are fashioned after brown coal bricks burned in Europe for generations, but without releasing any sequestered carbon.  They are ubiquitous in Scandinavia http://www.nettobraende.dk/Traebriketter.php


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## Mike Wilson (Nov 2, 2006)

babalu87 said:
			
		

> Mike Wilson said:
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Yeah...  you know the deal... the Hamptonites call it Sushi, we North Forkers call it bait.

Not to worry though, we've put up machine gun nests in Jamesport, and all Hamptonites now have to show their passports when coming over on the Shelter Island ferry.

-- Mike


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## BioPellet (Nov 2, 2006)

I have product in Bayport NY  Check my website...


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## BioPellet (Nov 11, 2006)

This is what Jotul Denmark has to say about compressed logs:

Træbriketter

Brug af træbriketter som brændsel i Jøtuls træovne og pejse



Hvad er træbriketter?

De råd, som vi giver her, gælder spåner fra rent træ, som bliver presset sammen i blokke, herefter kaldt træbriketter. Træbriketter har en størrelse fra ca. 0,2 kg til ca. 1 kg pr. briket. Der må ikke være benyttet tilsætningsmidler af nogen slags. Det er træets eget limstof, lignin, som binder spånerne ved sammenpresning og opvarmning under produktion af briketten. Egenskaberne ved forbrænding kan variere meget og er afhængige af, hvilket råstof der er brugt, og hvordan træbriketterne er fremstillet.



Hvordan bruges træbriketter?

Træbriketter bruges omtrent som almindelige stykker træ. Træbriketterne er teat meget kompakte og tørre sammenlignet med almindeligt optændingstræ. Derfor giver de fleste typer træbriketter en ”hidsigere” forbrænding end den, man får ved en tilsvarende mængde træ. Læg derfor hellere lidt ind ad gangen og oftere. Der bør følge en brugsanvisning med træbriketterne, som giver råd om sikker brug af den aktuelle kvalitet. Lufttilførslen må ikke lukkes, så flammerne kvæles, for så opstår der fare for eksplosiv antændelse af uforbrændte gasser (røggaseksplosion).



Hvor meget brændsel kan man lægge ind ad gangen?

Eftersom begrebet træbriketter omfatter brændsel, som opfører sig forskelligt, må man prøve sig frem, indtil man bliver fortrolig med den aktuelle brikettype. Start gerne med ca. 1 kg pr. indfyring efter sædvanlig optænding med optændingstræ. Sammenlign med brugen af almindeligt træ og øg om nødvendigt gradvist mængden, men aldrig ud over det, som svarer til almindelig træfyring. Det er meget vigtigt, at brugeren sikrer sig mod overfyring, både af hensyn til ildstedet og for at sikre sig mod brand.



Gælder Jøtuls garanti ved brug af træbriketter som brændsel?

Jøtuls garantibestemmelser for træprodukter gælder for det, som efter Jøtuls opfattelse er en normal brug af ildstedet, fyret med træ. Se brugsanvisning for det enkelte ildsted. Ved fyring med træbriketter skal brugeren udvise forsigtighed som beskrevet ovenfor, således at man undgår overfyring og andre faresituationer. Jøtuls garanti for ildstedet gælder dermed for fyring med træbriketter, forudsat at man bruger dem rigtigt. Skader, som er opstået i forbindelse med overfyring eller røggaseksplosion dækkes ikke af garantien.


Overfyring

Mange fyrer kraftigt ved opvarmning af kolde huse og hytter for at få varmen op så hurtigt som muligt. For kraftig fyring kan ødelægge både ildsted og skorsten og kan føre til brand. Hvis du har en emaljeret ovn, ødelægges emaljen, hvis du fyrer så meget, at ovnen bliver rødglødende. Skruer brænder fast, og pakninger kan smuldre bort. Ovnplader kan vride sig, således at ovnen revner, hvilket igen medfører, at ovnen får en ukontrolleret lufttilførsel.  
Vær opmærksom på farerne ved overfyring og at garantien bortfalder i sådanne tilfælde.


Normal forbrænding

Flammerne, som man kan se i ildstedet, er brændende gasser. Selv om flammerne efterhånden dør ud, kan trækullet gløde længe. Tørt træ af ”tunge” løvtræer flammer moderat og gløder længe. Let træ fra hurtigtvoksende træer flammer hurtig op og gløder hurtigere ud. Normal fyring er, når man har en jævn afbrænding med indfyring en gang i timen. Indfyringen må ikke være større, end at det fylder ca. 2/3 af brændkammeret; den del af ildstedet, som er beregnet for ilægning af træ.



I had this translated to German and then I translated the German to English --- Here is the result:

1 This is a discussion to clarify issues surrounding the use of compressed wood Briquettes made from pure wood with no binder other than the Lignin in the wood.  The briquettes weigh between 0.2 and 1 kg.

2. You must be careful to follow the directions in the use of briquettes.  Generally speaking Briquettes are more dry than typical cordwood.  You should not fully shut off air to the stove.  If you do dangerous amounts of wood gas can develop and spontaneously combust.

3.    Start out with 1 kg of briquettes and learn how this works for you.  Overheating is very dangerous and can result in fire danger.

4.    The Jotul guarantee holds only if you follow the above directions.  Overfire or explosions will void the warrantee.

5.    Overfiring, represented by a red glowing stove,  can result in damage to seams and seals which will lead to loss of control of air and void warrantee.

6.    Normal Burns:  What you see as flame is burning gas.  Also, when the flame is burned out the coals will glow red for a long period.  Dry hardwood lasts longer than dry softwood.  In normal operation one should add fuel in small amounts every hour and never fill beyond 2/3 of firebox volume.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 11, 2006)

So if a person fills the firebox like you show and turns down the air the stove is going to explode.

Thanks for the info.


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## DonCT (Nov 11, 2006)

They burn just fine in a Hearthstone Heritage


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## BioPellet (Nov 11, 2006)

Hey guys!  Look!  I just hooked a ludite


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## BrotherBart (Nov 11, 2006)

BioPellet said:
			
		

> Hey guys!  Look!  I just hooked a ludite



We spell it with two d's.


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## BioPellet (Nov 11, 2006)

To be clear, its brother bart thats the ludite


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## BrotherBart (Nov 11, 2006)

BioPellet said:
			
		

> To be clear, its brother bart thats the ludite



Large L, two d's.


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## stovepipe? (Nov 11, 2006)

I just today tried biobricks in my jotul 3cb.  they are great!  easy to start up, burn forever, no need to stir/poke, and no real need to pack the firebox full since one can do just fine with 6-10 bricks stacked close together.  pack them in and its like a single giant very well seasoned spilt that's molded to fit the firebox.  and they don't burn out of control.  perhaps they would if one left lots of airspace and stirred them up, but that would defeat the purpose.   yeah, in principle you can overfire your stove, but you can do this with a bunch of well-seasoned wood too.  one has to use common sense no matter what one is burning.  the only drawback with these (apart from price-- which is still pretty reasonable relative to cordwood in my area) is they haven't got any of the romance of a log on the fire.  they are burning bricks.  But if you're looking for a nice hot hassle-free fire, they're great. 

biobrick guy-- hook up with a retailer in southern/seacoast NH and I'll be a regular customer.


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## biggins08 (Nov 11, 2006)

Lot's of player hating going on ......


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## BioPellet (Nov 11, 2006)

stovepipe? said:
			
		

> I just today tried biobricks in my jotul 3cb.  they are great!  easy to start up, burn forever, no need to stir/poke, and no real need to pack the firebox full since one can do just fine with 6-10 bricks stacked close together.  pack them in and its like a single giant very well seasoned spilt that's molded to fit the firebox.  and they don't burn out of control.  perhaps they would if one left lots of airspace and stirred them up, but that would defeat the purpose.   yeah, in principle you can overfire your stove, but you can do this with a bunch of well-seasoned wood too.  one has to use common sense no matter what one is burning.  the only drawback with these (apart from price-- which is still pretty reasonable relative to cordwood in my area) is they haven't got any of the romance of a log on the fire.  they are burning bricks.  But if you're looking for a nice hot hassle-free fire, they're great.
> 
> biobrick guy-- hook up with a retailer in southern/seacoast NH and I'll be a regular customer.



Great feedback.  I concur completely.  You can overfire a stove with conventional wood too.  

Check my website BioPellet.net there are already dealers somewhat near you.  Let me know is this is not the case.  Also look at Sanford ME.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 11, 2006)

Yo Craig! Send this guy an invoice.


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## stovepipe? (Nov 11, 2006)

BB-- you mean me?  I was under the impression we were here to share experiences that might be helpful to others.  as much as we're all warmed by your cynicism, I'd rather spend my evening with a biobrick.  1890 posts and how many of them obnoxious?  What comes after "master of fire"?  'burn-out'?


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## BrotherBart (Nov 11, 2006)

stovepipe? said:
			
		

> BB-- you mean me?  I was under the impression we were here to share experiences that might be helpful to others.  as much as we're all warmed by your cynicism, I'd rather spend my evening with a biobrick.  1890 posts and how many of them obnoxious?  What comes after "master of fire"?  'burn-out'?



The invoice is referencing the bio pellet guy's advertising in the forum when Craig has asked that the post be non-commercial.

1761.


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## wg_bent (Nov 12, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> stovepipe? said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Uh Huh!!


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## Roospike (Nov 12, 2006)

stovepipe? said:
			
		

> What comes after "master of fire"?  'burn-out'?


 No , it would be ......... * " Over Fired  "*  :lol: 

Here is a thread i ran a few #' on the value of Bio bricks/logs vs cord wood.
i always wondered why the BTU's of Bio-wood was never listed.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4308/


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## hardwood715 (Nov 12, 2006)

> 1890 posts and how many of them obnoxious?



Read Em, You may find you'll learn something, I sure did?


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## BioPellet (Nov 12, 2006)

hardwood715 said:
			
		

> > 1890 posts and how many of them obnoxious?
> 
> 
> 
> Read Em, You may find you'll learn something, I sure did?



My BioBricks(tm) are much more EFFICIENT in a wood stove given thier size, shape, density and consistency.  Becouase of this you will not capture the advantages of BioBricks by comparing BTUs/lb.  Cordwood is very inconsistant.  You have bg pieces and small pieces and wet pieces and dry pieces and because of all this variation there are parts of the cordwood fuel that are not at combustion temperature and that means smoke and that means wasted BTUs.

1 lb of my BioBricks get the same amount of heat into the house as 1.7 lb of typical (21% moisture) cordwood based on test burns where I then integrated the heat of the stove over time.


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## Roospike (Nov 12, 2006)

Well sure , When you compare BioBricks to soft pine wood I'm sure they do. 

When compared to a hard wood there about the same and 200% more money.

The shown comparison of BioBricks 2200 lbs to 2700 lbs cordwood = a very soft cord wood like pine or cottonwood. Hard wood per cord is going to be in the upper 4400 lbs - 4800- lbs
 To me thats not real world comparison on Bio's pert , but is a great sale tactic. 


Bio cost $458.00 more than Osage Orange cord. @ around the same BTUs ( 33. / 32.5 )


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## Roospike (Nov 12, 2006)

Copied from the Bio thread:

So if you compared 1 pallet of BioBricks and/or energy logs cost at say $299. per ton/pallet at 16. mil btu per (internet price i found )

VS

Oak @ 1 cord wood at 27.5 mil BTU per cord @ what ever a local cord price is. 

(My local Oak cord prices is around $140. per/cord) 

To compare BTU of Oak cordwood to bio at around 16. mil btu

So that puts *1/2* a cord *Oak* at 13.75 BTUs @ * $70.00* (1850 lbs )
& 
*Bio wood * 16. mil BTU per pallet @ *$299.00 * (2200 lbs )

*************************************************************************

 Notes: 

1 cord of *OAK is 27.5 mil BTU* per cord @ 3700 lbs. = *$140.00*
1/2 cord of oak mil BTU per 1/2 13.75 weighs 1850 lbs = *$70.00*

1 cord of *Osage Orange is 32.5 mil BTU* per cord @ 4728 lbs = *$140.00*
1/2 cord Osage Orange mil BTU per 1/2 16.25 weighs 2364 lbs = *$70.00*

*Bio at 33. mil BTU* for 2 pallets @ 4400 lbs = *$598.00*
Bio at 16.5 BTU per mill 1 pallet 2200 lbs = *$299.00*

Bio pallet @ 2 VS Osage Orange cord @1:
Bio is 328 lbs less
Bio is 627 btu more per lb.
* Bio cost $458.00 more than Osage Orange cord. @ around the same BTUs ( 33. / 32.5 )*


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## BioPellet (Nov 12, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> Well sure , When you compare BioBricks to soft pine wood I'm sure they do.
> 
> When compared to a hard wood there about the same and 200% more money.
> 
> ...



Yeh ....  you still aren't getting it.  

Again, 1 pound of BioBricks(tm) brings as much heat into the house as 1.7 pounds of cordwood - be it pine or oak or any other wood


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## Roospike (Nov 12, 2006)

I dont think you get it ................

You cant compare 1.7 lbs of pine to 1.7 lbs of Oak and call it the same BTU or heat value.
I guess you need to explain it a different way.


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## BioPellet (Nov 12, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> I dont think you get it ................
> 
> You cant compare 1.7 lbs of pine to 1.7 lbs of Oak and call it the same BTU or heat value.
> I guess you need to explain it a different way.



most wood has the same btus/lb, variying by less than 10%.  Conifers, btw, generally ahve more btus per pound given thier higher Lignin %


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## Roospike (Nov 12, 2006)

*Cottonwood / Pine* Mil BTU per cord: *16.7* Weight:*2680*lbs

* Hedge Apple* Mil BTU per cord: *32.5* Weight:*4728*lbs

Both being 128 cf / 1 cord of wood.


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## Roospike (Nov 12, 2006)

OK , Again ..........When comparing BioBricks to Hedgeapple and being about the same weight of 2 pallets of bio to 1 cord of Hedge apple and about the same BTU per total weight and per lbs ..............How do you get a lot more heat ?

Your telling me you get almost twice as much heat from Bio then cord wood being Hedge Apple at the same BTU per lbs ?? 


I dont understand , If there the same BTU then where does the twice extra heat come from ? 


1 cord of *Osage Orange is 32.5 mil BTU* per cord @ 4728 lbs = *$140.00*
1/2 cord Osage Orange mil BTU per 1/2 16.25 weighs 2364 lbs = *$70.00*

*Bio at 33. mil BTU* for 2 pallets @ 4400 lbs = *$598.00*
Bio at 16.5 BTU per mill 1 pallet 2200 lbs = *$299.00*

Bio pallet @ 2 VS Osage Orange cord @1:
Bio is 328 lbs less
Bio is 627 btu more per lb.
* Bio cost $458.00 more than Osage Orange cord. @ around the same BTUs ( 33. / 32.5 )*


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## webbie (Nov 12, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> I dont think you get it ................
> 
> You cant compare 1.7 lbs of pine to 1.7 lbs of Oak and call it the same BTU or heat value.
> I guess you need to explain it a different way.



Bio is correct that most wood has the same BTU per pound.

You also definitely have to consider that a pound of biobricks weighs one pound, while a cord of wood is usually short! In other words, it is rare to get the full 128 cubic feet or 4,000 pounds of useful wood.

There are many ways to skin a cat!

A more fair comparison would be biobricks to pellets. A ton of each are similar prices. You are paying for the work, shipping, raw materials and profit involved - and you get an easier to use product.

Price is not the only issue - and if it is, a person would usually not want to burn biobricks. In other words, they are not for the central heat crowd nor the 10 cord a year woodsman.

Real world - A usual (short) cord of mixed harwoods might be 3,000 pounds if dried to the same moisture content. Softwoods, which are all you get in many areas of the USA, are closer to 2,000 - or the same as a ton of bios.

Again, a comparison to pellets is more accurate. As far as tests, I would await true lab testing before thinking that bios were vastly more efficient. I think they could be 20% more efficient at most. In other words, a stove might be 60% efficient with decent seasoned firewood and 70% with bios. But saying they are 70% more efficient would suggest that a new stove is 50% efficient with firewood and 85% with bios - both numbers seem out of kilter.

We always have to get back to using renewable fuel....in other words, many "green" people have claimed they would pay MORE for renewable local fuels. Well, here is your chance! I'm dead serious about this - pellets are somewhat in the same boat. They may not be the cheapest fuel, buy you do feel good about burning them!

Oh, and Ross - calm down! We're all on the same side.... :coolsmile:


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## GVA (Nov 12, 2006)

I see what Biopellet is saying BTU's per pound is close to the same, but as roospike is pointing out you get more btu's at a lower cost than the Bio bricks


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## webbie (Nov 12, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> The invoice is referencing the bio pellet guy's advertising in the forum when Craig has asked that the post be non-commercial.
> 
> 1761.



Hey, I'll accept money anytime.....

I don't mind the forum being used to introduce or discuss new products. Bio may be biased (as we all are toward our own products), but he/she is definitely a part of a growing industry that we all have interest in.

BTW, it is OK for both shops, vendors and merchants here to use their URL in their signatures (at least until further notice).....no problem with full disclosure. 

In my opinion the best thing that can happen in more biobricks, more pellets, more corn/biofuels and more firewood! As far as my income, it will follow naturally - when bio sees how many people read this thread, he will want to do more advertising before any competitors arise and get the jump on him!

Oh, and I guess biobrick prices can be reported under firewood in the new price guide - just select "ton" and mention bios in the comments.


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## Roospike (Nov 12, 2006)

Actually i was comparing more of a real world #'s and not exact Bio to maybe a cord of wood.

If Oak is 4500 lbs a cord and i was delivered 3000 lbs as stated then i think one would notice.

Pellets are different animal and not in the same class as a wood stove. The Bio brick are working into the wood stove class because they are burned in a wood stove.

When people burn for heat as most do here we are in the bulk class of fuel so it would be more real world to compare tons , pallets , cords and yearly cost and not 1 lb to 1 lb . IMO


If the average user used 4 cords of wood at 32.5 mil BTU per cord (hedge as stated) then lets compare 4 cords.

It then would take about 8 pallets of BioBricks to do the same as the stated wood .

4 cords of hedge wood @ $140. per cord ( my local price ) = $560.00

8 pallets of BioBricks @ $299.00 per pallet (internet price ) = $2392.00


So with that said , now you have to compare your over all yearly cord wood price ($560.00 as shown for me) vs your NG gas , LP , Electric , fuel oil  per yearly use.

Then you have to compare your over all yearly BioBrick price ($2392.00 internet price) vs your NG gas , LP , Electric , fuel oil  per yearly use.

One you compare then you can figure out what is your better value. 

Now that real world #'s to me IMO.
Its just like Craig always points out about the cost of pellets vs fuel oil to be worth the change.
BioBrick for me would cost a lot more than Natural Gas + add on the extra work of burning bricks.


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## wg_bent (Nov 12, 2006)

The only way to compare here is on the price / million BTUs, not weight or size of stack (cord or pallet)

Using Spike's numbers

for oak, a cord of oak bring 27.5 mil btu/cord @ $140.00,   doing the math of  27.5/140 to get BTU's/ Dollar = 196,428btu/dollar

With Bio 16.5 mil btu/ pallet @ 299.00 (wow what a mark up!!)  16.5/299  = 55,183 btu/dollar


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## Mo Heat (Nov 12, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> stovepipe? said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm thinking of a new moniker for especially snippy posters. I'll call it: HOT-HEAD.

One thing I know, this BTU per pound vs BTU per cord on top of the 6 - 10% moisture vs 10 - 25% moisture and the corresponding BTU loss from evaporating that moisture can get pretty tricky to calculate and to understand in my case. My head is still reeling from when Jonas' brother Chris (the engineer and WOW pellet master) gave us an explanation last year.

The cordwood vs compressed wood debate has now taken on the same character as the cat vs non-cat stove debate. Don't expect to be convinced one way or the other anytime soon. Strange that two years ago, the subject hardly even came up. In fact, only one or two people on this board admitted to having tried them at the time, and one was a stove store owner. It's nice to have so many people interested in these things. They definitely have their place.

I can say this, I have loved burning all the compressed wood products I've tried in my cat stove and I've tried three different logs. I reviewed them last year, so you can probably search my posts if your interested. I have not tried the biopellet product, but I would if I could buy them around here. Products like these are especially valuable if you can't (or don't want to) cut wood for yourself and still want to burn the woodstove. Sure beats buying wet wood from the WoodMan. Lots of other benefits as well.


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## recppd (Nov 13, 2006)

As a current burner of "compressed" wood products I can attest that they burn MUCH hotter and for LONGER periods of time.  I can put 4 compressed logs in my stove at 10 P.M. and wake up at 7 A.M. with hot coals.  Can't say I EVER got that with 4 pieces of oak, maple, etc.  I've only burned Home Prest Fire Logs (approx. 5lbs. each), so I can't attest to the Bio Bricks.  This year I went back to cordwood because of the price differential, but I am regretting it....


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2006)

All the "blind men" feel the same elephant and describe it as something different.

Where my shop was (Phila area), the average person we sold a stove to burned 1 to 1 1/2 cords a year. Many less, many more. But for the casual burners, the bios would be a nice fill-in. I would not suggest for a northern maine 100% house heater to use 'em continually.

Why is it so hard for 6 cord a year people to understand that everyone (in fact, most people) don't burn that way?

It's exactly like the car/truck debate. If you only drive 5,000 miles a year, having the most efficient car (MPG) is not as important. We've all seen the example where a wood stove saved $1000 and cost $52,000 (after injuries, etc.). 

What is the largest selling (in dollars) residential solid fuel in the country? I say DuraFlame! Maybe that should tell us something. 

Using "price" logic, Ross would be eating only soybeans, which would be 15X as efficient (and about 1/15 the cost) of a good steak! Folks can play with numbers all they want, the market speaks louder than each of us. Where bio is located (CT) is a very "surburban" market. 

In fact, using price logic the pellet stove industry would probably be 1/10 the size! Gas logs would not exist -instead of selling by the million, and SUV's would soon be gone. 

Here's another strange one for ya...where I lived in relatively warm south jersey folks did not take well to pellet stoves. But when I traveled to the middle of the NY Mountains, woodstoves were "dead" and all the folks were using pellets - same with Mass. - even though they have millions of acres of firewood all around them. Explain that....well, actually I can - I suppose that many former wood burners have gotten older and still like the idea of wood and renewables, so they use pellets. Of course, there is also a fad factor and some misinformation.


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## Roospike (Nov 13, 2006)

I dont have a problem with anybody burning what ever they want or want to pay, so thats a non issue.
The #'s are now here so people can choose the best fuel for there needs.
I dont think there is a debate here except for the fact that the claim of Bio is a better value in $$ and we can see there are not over other fuels. 
The thread came up about BioBricks and BTU ..........as of before i seemed to care less until it was asked so i did the research and come up with some #'s so the poster can choose what is best for him/her .

Its kinda funny to hear a statement about the cost not being the big issue when that is one of the biggest reasons we are all here and burning other fuels to heat our home.
For me and value it would be cheaper to heat my home with Natural Gas and also have a gas fire place then the cost of the BioBricks , again , this for me and heating my home.

We know that there are millions of homes built and being built with fireplaces in them so my guess would be that is where a lot of Duraflame logs are being used as well and for fire starters , i dont think people are actually buying Duraflame logs by the pallet to add extra heat to there homes in there fire place.


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## DonCT (Nov 13, 2006)

Hey, I just bought them to as an easy, clean supplement to my cord wood. Heck, I've even just started out with the Bio's to heat up the firebox and get a coal bed, then put my cord wood on top. Works pretty well.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 13, 2006)

My apologies to all. Follow the directions, take another hit off the bong and go up stairs and sleep well.

"BioBricks are ideally sized for wood stoves. Packing density is optimized. You can fill every corner of the stove with high-density fuel and extend your burn times greatly. Consistent size means more complete combustion. They generate 150% more heat then cordwood!"

But not in my stoves ya won't.


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## wg_bent (Nov 13, 2006)

It is a lot like me dealing with Pine.  For the effort, I could spend my time and energy a lot better.  Same energy devoted to processing a cord of pine would result in I'd guess about 5 cords of ash.  Do I burn pine...yup.. it was free and delivered.  But the stove is cranking on a big ol peice of that fat wood and the livingroom is 80  :cheese: and I'm a happy camper.


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## BioPellet (Nov 13, 2006)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> My apologies to all. Follow the directions, take another hit off the bong and go up stairs and sleep well.
> 
> "BioBricks are ideally sized for wood stoves. Packing density is optimized. You can fill every corner of the stove with high-density fuel and extend your burn times greatly. Consistent size means more complete combustion. They generate 150% more heat then cordwood!"
> 
> But not in my stoves ya won't.



1 lb BioBricks(tm) = 1.7 lb typical cordwood  --- it's all the math you need


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2006)

Ross, Hearth.com readers do everything from use gas logs to pellet stoves to wood stoves and much more. A varied lot, for certain. Certainly some hard core woodburners in the forum, but a bunch of everyday joes and janes simply reading.

Our fuel price calculator will evaluate biobricks by using either the softwood or pellet calcs....since softwood does have more moisture, we can figure that a cord of softwood at 20% and a ton of bios are probably roughly equal. You can adjust efficiency also in the calculator, so as to make an accurate comparison. Use 80% if a modern stove and bios if you want to be a nice guy!

http://www.forfuel.com/calc/index.html

While I am the first to promote "BTU for BTU" comparisons, I do learn new things everyday. For instance, I have the pellet corn stove in my shop, and I have only used 5 bags of fuel (40 lbs each) so far this year - because i can run it very low and start it easily and also stop it the same. I can tell you for certain that a wood stove would have taken my a LOT more pounds of fuel to do the same thing. That is just one example where one feature outweighs another.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 13, 2006)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> While I am the first to promote "BTU for BTU" comparisons, I do learn new things everyday. For instance, I have the pellet corn stove in my shop, and I have only used 5 bags of fuel (40 lbs each) so far this year - because i can run it very low and start it easily and also stop it the same. I can tell you for certain that a wood stove would have taken my a LOT more pounds of fuel to do the same thing. That is just one example where one feature outweighs another.



That is the one thing that makes me wish that we had gas available. Ya can turn it down and ya can turn it off based on temp in the house. Kinda hard to turn off a wood stove that is kickin 700. The wood just keeps on going away. The gas meter stops.


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## Roospike (Nov 13, 2006)

BioPellet said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its the *"typical cordwood"* part that is untrue and misleading consumers about the product.
BioBrick may be higher-density than low value pine but are the same BTU as 1 cord of pine but at 3x - 4X the price.

The 2700 lbs of *PINE/COTTONWOOD* that your product that is equal to and compared to is any thing but *"typical cordwood"*. 

Thats what made me loose any and all respect for the BioBrick product. 
But hey, if "car lot salesman advertising" works for you and you can B.S. enough customers then happy selling to you. It might bite you in the end but good luck for now.

*NOTE:* As a side note to BioBricks , I have no issues with the product of BioBricks and how the product works. I am only stating the "real world" value of BioBricks compared to cord wood (and what cord wood it is equal to per over all BTUs ) and the price value to cord wood. I'm done.


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## BioPellet (Nov 13, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> BioPellet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If your cord weighs 2700 lb then it will take 1.25 cord of that type of wood to equal one pallet of my BioBricks(tm)   

--- 1 lb BioBrick(tm) = 1.7 lb typical cordwood --- it's all the math you need


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## Roospike (Nov 13, 2006)

BioPellet said:
			
		

> Roospike said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You advertise your BioBricks at 2200 lbs to be equial to 2700 lbs of seasoned cord wood. 
( see link below ) 
*Now* your saying 1 pallet of 2200 lbs equals 1.25 of that same cord ?
 Something is not right.

http://www.finesthearth.com/bio_bricks_biomass_fuel_alternative.asp


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## BioPellet (Nov 13, 2006)

Roospike said:
			
		

> BioPellet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's Finest Hearth's add  - not mine.  But if my pallet weighed 2200 lb (which it does not, it weighs roughly a ton) then it would be equiv to 1.38 cord of your 2700 lb per cord wood. 

1 lb BioBricks(tm) is equal to 1.7 lb typical cordwood

Would someone PLEASE get this guy a calculator?  My fingers are getting tired


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## Turner-n-Burner (Nov 13, 2006)

I probably shouldn't stir the pot on this thread, but something that keeps jumping out at me...

Around here - which is pretty near BioPellets home base, cordwood is typically running ~$300/cord plus delivery ($50).  That is called "seasoned" but of course isn't really ready to burn - at least not cleanly.  For those of you that can buy split cordwood for $140 a cord - why are you cutting and splitting yourselves?

Last time I talked to him, the local BioPellet dealer was selling at $270/ton, so a ton of biobricks - which I can pick up pretty easily  - are less costly than a cord of delivered wood.  

As the point has been made earlier - BTU's per lb aren't the only measure of heat - it's really what comes out of your stove that matters.  So far on this forum I have only heard from users that were very impresssed with the product (other forms of compressed logs included).  And we all know that bad news travels much faster than good news.

I come from the don't knock it til you try it club - and I'll be trying these.


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## webbie (Nov 13, 2006)

I'm going to close this thread - I think the issues are clear....

That pellets and compressed wood at low moisture are not the same as 20%+ moisture wood
That on a BTU basis, pellets and compressed logs are usually more expensive..sometimes MUCH more. Depends on where you live and how much work you are willing to put in.
That convienience and the use of renewables figures in also


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