# portage and main question?



## Graham (Jan 26, 2012)

Does anybody own a portage and main optimizer 250 or a ml 30. Just wondering on what you think of them, if you like the units. how much wood you burn and heating what size of house. I need to replace my central boiler model 17, its about 14 or so yrs old and leaks like a seive again. I would like to try and reduce wood consumption and smoke. I burn 2 year seasoned ash. I dont know moisture content but I burn about 10-12 cord of wood in a year october to may, and heat my hot water for a family of 4. My house is 2000 square feet with old drafty windows and doors but well insulated.

thanks for any info.


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## bpirger (Jan 26, 2012)

A ton of things to decide I'd say, but the best news is, you'll likely drop your wood consumption down significantly and you can almost say goodbye to smoke completely....with a gasser.  I don't have a P&M, I have a Garn.  I think there are a few with a P&M.  I looked briefly, but I ended up with the Garn.  So many things I could write here....just start reading some of the other threads.  Stickies up on the top (threads that always remain at the top of the list) are a good place to start.

Do you want a stand alone or can you build a building around a boiler?  Many of the gasser's are done this way...most I think.  Mess is outside, heat pumped inside through buried, well insulated PEX.

What is your actual heat load?  I guess can you can get a guess based on your wood consumption, but best to sit down and run a few calculations use the free online resources.  

Do you have radiant, baseboard, forced air?  This will likely determine a more ideal system for you.  Radiant can use low temp water, forced air HX essentially requires hotter water (160 up) or oversized HX, allowing cooler temp usage.  Same for baseboard...160 up or more feet of baseboard.

General rule of thumb around here is a gasser with storage is the way to go.   Storage is a big tank of water that you heat with the fire raging, then you draw heat out storage after the fire is gone.  Without storage, your boiler will idle, which causes smoke, creosote, reduces efficiency, etc.  

Search around on the other threads and you will learn a tremendous amount....Most of us have spent countless hours reading, learning, installing, learning, asking, learning....LOL...maybe in that order.

Welcome!


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## Graham (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't really have the money to put up a building to put a garn in. I have seen the videos on you tube and been to there site they are deffinitly nice and if I had the money to do it I probabley would put in a garn. For now a stand alone unit is the best solution. I have forced air heat exchanger in the plenum of my propane furnace, we own 160 acres of mostly popular and a few small stands of ash, so I have lots of wood handy around the house. I recentley built a open air pole shed 46x24 half used as a car port and the other half roughly 24x24 as a wood shed. Right now it is right full of ash fire wood piled 5-6 feet high some were around 24 cords probabley a little less. Last year was a cold long winter here and I used 12 cords of black ash, i figured rough the house uses about 40,000 btu/hr probabley a little more. we heat about 110 gallons of hot water a day so maybe another 4,000 btu/hr for that about 44,000 btu/hr for everything. I got a price on a optimizer 250 at 11,500 and a ml30 was 7,900. The ml is alot cheaper and more in my price range. The optimizer would be the one I would choose if money were no object but its hard to spend the difference right now. I would like to know how much difference between the two furnaces in wood savings and smoke. Thats one thing that drives me nuts about the central boiler is the continuse smoke, even though I burn well seasoned wood. I have very good insulated pex line in the ground vurtually no heat loss, its the stuff with return and supply line encased in soft foam insulation inside what looks like weeping tile. The furnace is 145 feet from the house. When I first put the pex into the ground the temp was -4F or -20C and the tempature loss was a measured 2F.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 26, 2012)

Graham said:
			
		

> I don't really have the money to put up a building to put a garn in. I have seen the videos on you tube and been to there site they are deffinitly nice and if I had the money to do it I probabley would put in a garn. For now a stand alone unit is the best solution. I have forced air heat exchanger in the plenum of my propane furnace, we own 160 acres of mostly popular and a few small stands of ash, so I have lots of wood handy around the house. I recentley built a open air pole shed 46x24 half used as a car port and the other half roughly 24x24 as a wood shed. Right now it is right full of ash fire wood piled 5-6 feet high some were around 24 cords probabley a little less. Last year was a cold long winter here and I used 12 cords of black ash, i figured rough the house uses about 40,000 btu/hr probabley a little more. we heat about 110 gallons of hot water a day so maybe another 4,000 btu/hr for that about 44,000 btu/hr for everything. I got a price on a optimizer 250 at 11,500 and a ml30 was 7,900. The ml is alot cheaper and more in my price range. The optimizer would be the one I would choose if money were no object but its hard to spend the difference right now. I would like to know how much difference between the two furnaces in wood savings and smoke. Thats one thing that drives me nuts about the central boiler is the continuse smoke, even though I burn well seasoned wood. I have very good insulated pex line in the ground vurtually no heat loss, its the stuff with return and supply line encased in soft foam insulation inside what looks like weeping tile. The furnace is 145 feet from the house. When I first put the pex into the ground the temp was -4F or -20C and the tempature loss was a measured 2F.


I don't think you will find good user info on both boilers here. I thought I read where the ML was also a Scotch boiler design, there should be no reason for it to burn more or less clean than the 250. The ML(not sure on BTU output) wood usage should be proportional to the 250 with regard to btu output. I don't think you could go wrong with either one. Good on you for caring about the OWB polution, Randy//// Correction, I thought the ML was the smaller indoor gasser P&M makes, it isn't & would reccomend the IDA to compare with the 250 instead.


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## bpirger (Jan 26, 2012)

I wasn't suggesting you put in a Garn....I agree, they are damned expensive!  But I am suggesting you put in a gasser, as your smoke problems would be largely gone and your consumption significantly reduced (by a 1/3 or more).  Gasser's come in various flavors, the Eko, the BioMass, etc. and these units are in that $6K range I believe.  But, they are NOT intended to be put outside freestanding.  Many folks have them outside in a small shed building.  Perhaps you could place one where you boiler currently sits?  

Typically folks have storage with these units, at least if you want the system to work "better", as storage elimates the idling of the boiler, which is what causes your smoke problems.  Many folks use retired propane tanks for storage.  So, your fire burns full out to heat the storage, so the burn efficiency can be in the mid to high 80's.  Quite spectactular.  Then you can draw from storage for many hours (depending on the temperatures, how much heat you pull per hour, etc).  Storage could be added later...many folks setup without storage and then add it later, as it generally is a big improvement in performance and convienence.

There are a few other "outside" freestanding gassers.  Econoburn makes one, there are quite a few folks here with Econoburn units.  CB has the "classic", which is a gasser.  I believe the P&M is a gasser as well.  Without a doubt, these units will be more expensive than the "smoke dragon" style boiler.  But, as you have already discovered, they come at a price of smoke and wood consumption.  Many areas don't allow new installations of these beasts, etc.  No sure what the rule is up North of the border...Frozen Canuck I believe his name is....certainly will.

Generally I think folks who have gone from a non gasser to a gasser report a reduction in wood consumption by 1/3 or so...and I think they report a major reduction in smoke.  Of course, the storage is a very large part of smoke reduction.  With a drafty house, the smoke is perhaps very likely to drive you bonkers, let alone the neighbors. 

Some have said they have installed their systems for less than $10K....so I wouldn't dismiss it too quickly.  Take your time.  You've found the best spot I know of to learn what can be done....


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## KarlK (Jan 26, 2012)

I have a P&M optimizer 250 it works great !


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## skfire (Jan 26, 2012)

Did extensive research on the P&M and was very impressed by it. Great unit and I almost went with it, but for some prohibitive predicaments strictly associated with my specific install conditions.
Kark K is very knowledgeable on it, spoke to him extensively about it, as well as the guys up in Canada that make it. 
If exposed OWB is the path....this one IMHO is the pinnacle.

Good luck

Scott


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## Whitepine2 (Jan 26, 2012)

I have a P&M 250 have been running it for about a year can;t say enough about it.I owned a Mahoning for 6 yrs. and I know what you mean about leaking and also smoke but at the time I didn't 
know about this sight and or so called gassers. I can tell you that this unit burns about 1/3 the wood the other one did.It's been a mild winter so far but I don't thing it would burn much more even if
a colder winter. You can call 1-800-561-0700 and talk to Rory at Heat Smart Plus,this is where the P&M is made when he tole me the temps. are 10-20* below zero and the 250 works well that sold me
and I'm not one bit sorry,yes it did cost but is well worth it in the long run and the payback is nice.I have all the wood I need but it's nice when you don't need as much and a lot less work as I'm 68
and it's not like being 40 any more.I would buy another one in the blink of an eye it's a no-brainer after operating this one. Hope this helps you you can PM if you want.

       Whitepine2


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## Mauler (Jan 26, 2012)

when considering outdoor gassers only (not indoor models in outsheds), what does the forum think of unpressurized outdoor gassers like PMoptimizer/Profab empyre vs outdoor preessurized gassers like econoburn? I've read all of the threads on both types and its still hard to choose.

thanks


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## Graham (Jan 26, 2012)

Thank you for all the responces. I have been reading on the site for awhile trying searches for portage and main as well as Eclassic 2300,. I have tried googling those same names for info but there just isn't alot out there. Nobody I know has a gassifier everybody has the smoke dragons most are central boiler the brother in law just bought a cozeburn but so far its very hard on wood, and it has been a very mild winter here. I would like to drop my wood usage from 12 cord to 7-8 or less if possible, hopefully in two years i will redo the exterior of the house 2 inch insulation new windows and doors and new siding and then maby my goals of less then 7 cords might be more realistic. If what I have read is true than just going to a gassifier should save about 3 cords a winter that would be a 25% savings in wood consumption.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 26, 2012)

Personally I like pressurized gassers. I would take a Switzer over a Garn for just that reason. A bit has been said about pressurized gassers still needing water monitoring. Most owners though get the air out & never look back. If you buy a non pressurized you will need to buy chemicals, send water samples in, are you willing to keep after it? Randy//// This in response to Maulers post.


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## martyinmi (Jan 27, 2012)

Three of us bought P&M 250's back in August of '11. We love them. They are simple to operate, and only require 10-15 minutes/week maintenance. If your old CB is the ripple top design, you will burn less than half the wood you are accustomed to.
   The ml 30 is not a gasser, and it will smoke some. It will use 20% - 30% more fuel than the 250, but a lot less than the old CB.
   If you do hands on research, you will see that P&M builds the finest OWB's on the market.


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## ewdudley (Jan 27, 2012)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> Personally I like pressurized gassers. I would take a Switzer over a Garn for just that reason. A bit has been said about pressurized gassers still needing water monitoring. Most owners though get the air out & never look back. If you buy a non pressurized you will need to buy chemicals, send water samples in, are you willing to keep after it? ...


I've seen a conventional OWB that had what amounted to a truck tire inner tube on top used as an atmospheric-pressure expansion device, which kept the system isolated from atmospheric oxygen.  I assume it had some sort of low-pressure blow-off port for safety.  I've always wondered why all unpressurized boilers don't take this approach.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 27, 2012)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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That is interesting, never heard of that before, Randy


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## ewdudley (Jan 27, 2012)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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Found it, searching for owb and bladder:

http://www.heatmor.com/purchasingpointers.html

BTW maybe should keep quiet about the Switzers, I'm pretty sure they're a well kept secret.


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## TCaldwell (Jan 27, 2012)

Eliot, Does garry still build boilers, Last conversation I had with him he was primarily servicing his many installs. I met him, saw his shop and was able to give him some contacts that ended in 2 ct installs about 4 years ago, a great guy. I have a daughter in keuka college, not far from his shop in dundee, how far away are you.
tom


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## ewdudley (Jan 27, 2012)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Eliot, Does garry still build boilers, Last conversation I had with him he was primarily servicing his many installs. I met him, saw his shop and was able to give him some contacts that ended in 2 ct installs about 4 years ago, a great guy. I have a daughter in keuka college, not far from his shop in dundee, how far away are you.
> tom



I guess that explains why we don't hear more about them.  Too bad, judging from the EForest install, they appear to be the be-all and end-all of residential cord-wood boilers:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/21971/

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm210/forestfamily64/Wood Heat/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ20

I'm way up north of Auburn, quite a ways away.  We race on Waneta Lake from time to time.  Lot of beautiful New York between here and there!

--ewd


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 27, 2012)

EW, I thought he was always somewhat of a recluse & didn't advertise or have an internet site. He has a phone number in Dundee if that is still good. I saw the EForest install too & was impressed. It appears Gary will build about whatever you need, Randy


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## Graham (Jan 27, 2012)

the brochure on central boiler that was left with house when we bought the place shows a cut away of the firebox and it looks like it doesn't have the ripple top but 2x3 tubing or something similar welded across the top of the fire box in 3 places then it has the drop down baffell that makes smoke have to drop down towards the fire before going out the chimmeny. Is there any negitive asspects to the optimizer that anyone has come across while using them? what is there to cleaning them, just run the brush in and out of the heat exchanger and clean the ashes?


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## woodsmaster (Jan 27, 2012)

Graham said:
			
		

> the brochure on central boiler that was left with house when we bought the place shows a cut away of the firebox and it looks like it doesn't have the ripple top but 2x3 tubing or something similar welded across the top of the fire box in 3 places then it has the drop down baffell that makes smoke have to drop down towards the fire before going out the chimmeny. Is there any negitive asspects to the optimizer that anyone has come across while using them? what is there to cleaning them, just run the brush in and out of the heat exchanger and clean the ashes?



 I watched a video and the hx looked very easy to clean. Just open the door on the back, pull the turbulaters out 
( they just lay in the tubes nothing to unbolt) and run the brush threw the tubes.


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## Northernliving (Jan 28, 2012)

I'm in the early stages of considering a gasifier boiler for my 3600ish sq ft house.  I've been heating for the past two seasons with my woodstock soapstone fireview which I really love.  I have a very open house and can keep about a 35* to 40* differential with the stove and the thermostats all turned off.  This year has been very warm, but I'm on track to burn about 4 cord and 1 275gal tank of oil, but I keep my house pretty cold (55* to 65*).  My wife is a real trouper and doesn't complain!     I have a few radiant zones that I've added in an addition, but other than that, I have a 4 zone FHW system.

I've started narrowing down the boilers to a short list.  The two inside unites that I'm considering  are dual fueled - the Tarm, and the Wood Gun.  Both look like great units. 

For outdoor units, I'm looking at the Portage and Main outdoor unit.  I looked at the Central Boiler E-Series, but I haven't read of any rave endorsements from owners. 

I like the idea of keeping the mess outside and not having to carry all that wood to the basement (I do have a walkout, though), but like the idea of keeping the lost heat inside with the dual fueled units.

I really would love to hear more for Portage and Main owners.  About their install, storage or no storage and how the unites are working.

Many thanks!

North


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## Graham (Jan 28, 2012)

So I will look into a small garage and housing a wood boiler inside with storage possibley. The only draw back wood be insurance approvale and the time to do it and the money. What brands of gassifiers are besides Tarm and Eko. Is there a Canadian distributor for these stoves? what about Minnesota or the Dakotas?


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## woodsmaster (Jan 28, 2012)

Graham said:
			
		

> So I will look into a small garage and housing a wood boiler inside with storage possibley. The only draw back wood be insurance approvale and the time to do it and the money. What brands of gassifiers are besides Tarm and Eko. Is there a Canadian distributor for these stoves? what about Minnesota or the Dakotas?



  I asked my insurace guy about insuring the boiler shed and he didn't seem to interested so I let it go. I have no insurance
on the boiler or shed. Hope nothing bad ever happens to it. It is a big project to install one of these. It was one that I enjoyed tho.
There are lots of good brands out there. Besides the ones you mentionied there is the Biomass, Econoburn, Vegas, Effecta lambada, varm, and more I can't think of at the moment. I'm very happy with my biomass, but have never run any of the other brands to compair.


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## bpirger (Jan 28, 2012)

Before I chose the garn, I know the P&M had my interest.  Compared to many of the other units, indeed, it seemed that the HX tuibing was directly accessible without much trouble.  This is key I think.  Many of the others require removal of panels, insulation, etc. just to get to them. 

My primary concern was the relatively unknow/few reviews, and it is a huge investment.  I felt more comfortable with the reputation of the Garn, the complete simplicity of the Garn, and have the integrated storage.  Of course, the Garn requires a building....but I already had that waiting (after some retrofit).


As for water maintainence, it is true, twice a year I have to lift the manhole and dip in a little container.  So far, each time, it has taken about 60 seconds.  Not a problem.  When I hear about many of the other issues, with nozzles, refractory, electronics, fans, idling, creosote, etc. it makes me really happy to know I don't have any of these issues.  So far I've had no water issues, but only have had 3 samples. (0,6,12 months).

Though again, I repeat, if you need that hot water for the water to air HX, it isn't clear to me a Garn would be optimal.  I just don't know how long storage would be able to supply water.  190-160 isn't a very big differential for that application.  190 is the generally accepted highest target temp for the Garn.  Apparently the water chemistry starts to degrade more quickly after firing repeatedly over 190....That's the consensus anyways.


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## Northernliving (Jan 29, 2012)

bpirger,

Will the smallest Garn fit a in a 10x10 shed?  That's the largest size structure we can build without permitting, etc. 

-North


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 29, 2012)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

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My homeowners insurance automatically included coverage for outbuildings up to 10% of the policy amount. Not sure how a boiler would be treated though.


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## Noggah (Jan 29, 2012)

Graham/North,

Here is your raving review for a CB e-classic 2400. 

First season with mine, but love it more every day. Very good controls, minimal smoke, incredibly low maintainence and very efficient with wood useage. From what I have read on here they may have had their issues, but the upgrades made with the new series seems to have made all the difference. Quite pricey, but a great investment and very much worth the money in my opinion.


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## bpirger (Jan 30, 2012)

My Garn 1500 (1500 gallons of water) is about 6' high, just under 10' long.  All insulated and boxed, it is about 8' wide, 8' high, and 10' long.  With the plumbing out the back though, it exceeds 10'.  

I have it in a 24x16 shed, so I have a few feet behind it for plumbing, and about 8 feet in front.  I keep a cord of wood, maybe a bit more in there.

I'd say NO, won't fit in a 10x10 shed.  It might be tough to get anything with storage inside a shed of that size...propane tanks might have to be vertical, etc.  Though often tanks are kept in the basement.

Garn has some smaller units, but I don't know anything about them.  2000 is a bit longer.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 30, 2012)

A 10 x 10 is going to be tough to fit but could be done. there wouldn't be much room behind the boiler on 
most models. You would also be limited to either thermal storage or wood storage in the shed or a small 
amount of both. I have a 12 x 14 shed 12' tall. In it are 2 - 500 gallon vertical tanks, the boiler, expansion 
tank, kindling box and room for 1 - 12 x 8 x 2 stack of fire wood. There isn't much extra room except up
high for shelving.
  It's pretty tight and I wouldn't want to go any smaller. I could have did it in a 12 x 12 but 
would have very little indoor firewood storage.


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