# Costco now selling DIY mini splits.



## Brian26 (Aug 26, 2018)

Looks like Costco is now selling the Mr Cool brand DIY mini splits at a great price. These have precharged line sets that removes the need for an HVAC tech to install.


One of the most difficult aspects of typical heat pump installation is dealing with the refrigerant inside the coils.
The Mr Cool DIY Series comes with precharged linesets alleviating one major obstacle to amateur installation in a single stroke.


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## begreen (Aug 26, 2018)

Yes, they are showing up everywhere including Home Depot. Efficiency is sub par but ok for something this cheap I guess. Noise level looks a bit higher too. China made?


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 27, 2018)

Fantastic price for a garage DIY.


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## peakbagger (Aug 27, 2018)

Good concept but worried about durability of the quick disconnects. Price is definitely right.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 27, 2018)

Showing a SEER rating of 16 about average but it is on the low side. Iv seen this rating up to 30 in the past at HD , some Panasonic units are 26 SEER from HD. Not sure if the extra cost is worth it you have to run the numbers.


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## begreen (Aug 27, 2018)

Yes, the HSPF for the MrCool is not to great either though some of the Panasonics also have a low HSPF also. We don't need much AC here so heating efficiency is more important. Panasonic's 3 ton is only 8.5. Their 15,000 btus Exterios XE boasts an HSPF of 12, but that is their largest.


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## CaptSpiff (Aug 27, 2018)

So what's the secret for not having to evacuate the air in the lines? I see something about "pre-charge" on the line set which is also permanently pre-mounted to the indoor unit. If the line set is pre-charged, and the compressor coil is pre-charged, then how are the two systems brought together? Is there a "piercing" process in the manifold connection?

I learned on the early LG: hooked up the line set and indoor unit to the manifold on the outdoor unit. Connected the vacuum motor and let it run for an hour. Disconnected the vac, opened the manifold valves and the precharged 410 would fill the void of the line set and indoor head. This mrCOOL seems to be missing a step???


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 27, 2018)

No step missed. No need to pull a vac as there are almost zero voids to vac.


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## dCalvinz (Aug 28, 2018)

Been wanting to get one. Hope they are durable. Gonna check them out.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 29, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Showing a SEER rating of 16 about average but it is on the low side. Iv seen this rating up to 30 in the past at HD , some Panasonic units are 26 SEER from HD. Not sure if the extra cost is worth it you have to run the numbers.


Keep in mind that you gain a great deal from turning rooms down/off and regulating temperature much more accurately then a conventional.  Not to mention, you don't have massive vents leaking cool air through an attic, basement, ect.

Loving my mini split.


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## begreen (Aug 29, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Keep in mind that you gain a great deal from turning rooms down/off and regulating temperature much more accurately then a conventional.  Not to mention, you don't have massive vents leaking cool air through an attic, basement, ect.


And no radiant heat duct losses either.  

My concern with this new crop of Chinese heat pumps is that they won't stand up over time. It's too early to tell. There are also a bunch of very cheap generators showing up from China now. You see them even being sold at grocery superstores like Aldi.  Folks that use them regularly are saying they are failing after a season of use. A good Honda or Yamaha generator under the same task will run for years.


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## peakbagger (Aug 29, 2018)

I agree, I bought my Mitsubishi mini split for not much more money. I went with Mitsubishi as they had a rock solid reputation. Fujitsu's seem to also have good rep. I have gotten several years off of both my Mitsubishi  units. Every tech I have talked to have stressed the need for perfect flare joints as gas leaks are the death of a unit. Minisplits are typically not repairable, the techs just yank them and replace them as they are not designed for easy service (tight packaging, everything is in the way of everything else).

I expect the Costco units are throwaway when they stop working and durability is questionable. Not a good combination for a $1500 plus unit. Fine for someone trying to dress up house to sell or short term use like in construction trailer but not so sure for a long term install. Any savings is wasted money once one fails prematurely compared to a known brand


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 29, 2018)

begreen said:


> And no radiant heat duct losses either.
> 
> My concern with this new crop of Chinese heat pumps is that they won't stand up over time. It's too early to tell. There are also a bunch of very cheap generators showing up from China now. You see them even being sold at grocery superstores like Aldi.  Folks that use them regularly are saying they are failing after a season of use. A good Honda or Yamaha generator under the same task will run for years.


I agree.

I saw the "mr cool" and thought I saw "mr slim", the latter being a Mitsubishi.

All bets are off on cheap Chinese.  Do yourself a favor and buy Japanese. 
I don't know about residential, but for industrial, Mitsubishi is so anal about quality control that it manufacturers it's own components for its circuit boards. That is a commitment right there.

The PC board (that is outside at the condenser) is about 8"x8" and in the weather.  I was a bit amazed it wasn't in a protective case...just the outside cover between it and the elements.  I'm sure there was a conformal coating on the PCB,,,,but still.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 29, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Keep in mind that you gain a great deal from turning rooms down/off and regulating temperature much more accurately then a conventional.  Not to mention, you don't have massive vents leaking cool air through an attic, basement, ect.
> 
> Loving my mini split.


Even at 16 mini splits are more efficient than a window air which is usually 9 to 11. That said ,Its the reliability issue that worries most. I generally avoid all things china,even food items. If they can sell us toxic drywall, they will sell us anything.


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## peakbagger (Aug 29, 2018)

begreen said:


> And no radiant heat duct losses either.
> 
> My concern with this new crop of Chinese heat pumps is that they won't stand up over time. It's too early to tell. There are also a bunch of very cheap generators showing up from China now. You see them even being sold at grocery superstores like Aldi.  Folks that use them regularly are saying they are failing after a season of use. A good Honda or Yamaha generator under the same task will run for years.



Consumer Reports actually recently said some good things about the Harbor Freight Predator generators. Not a uniform thumbs up but for some uses they said they could be a better fit than a Honda. That said Chinese gear from unknown brand names do have pretty abysmal quality control and longevity.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2018)

My concern would be getting service or parts 1-5 years down the road. An hvac system is infrastructure and it will eventually need service. Now it is being treated like a consumer item. I despise the use it and toss it mentality that comes with cheap consumer goods.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 30, 2018)

begreen said:


> My concern would be getting service or parts 1-5 years down the road. An hvac system is infrastructure and it will eventually need service. Now it is being treated like a consumer item. I despise the use it and toss it mentality that comes with cheap consumer goods.


It goes hand in hand with no one knowing how to do anything.  How many suburbanite males do you know that can fix anything?  Seems pretty few these days.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2018)

Yes, it's true of urbanites too. And from this comes a lack of journeymen that we need to fix things.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 30, 2018)

begreen said:


> Yes, it's true of urbanites too. And from this comes a lack of journeymen that we need to fix things.


Well...the urbanites have never known how to fix anything.  The suburbanites is a recent phenomenon.


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## begreen (Aug 30, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Well...the urbanites have never known how to fix anything.  The suburbanites is a recent phenomenon.


When something needs fixing, wait until your kids can watch. Take time and let them ask lots of questions. My dad did that a lot and I grew up in a NY suburb. Now I will try to fix almost anything. I actually do this for the community a couple times a year with a bunch of other fixers. Anything to keep it out of the landfill.


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## peakbagger (Aug 30, 2018)

Its not just minisplits, there is lot of recent press that major appliances like refrigerators are failing far earlier and effectively unrepairable as the manufacturer doesnt stock parts. Most big screen TVs are that way.


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## sportbikerider78 (Aug 31, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> Its not just minisplits, there is lot of recent press that major appliances like refrigerators are failing far earlier and effectively unrepairable as the manufacturer doesnt stock parts. Most big screen TVs are that way.


My theory with appliances is that most people don't keep homes over 10 years and styles change at about that time.  So do people actually care?  I think if they did, the market would react.
I think, soon, you will see more rugged appliances come out...you'll pay the price, but long run, they will be better.


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## Seasoned Oak (Aug 31, 2018)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Well...the urbanites have never known how to fix anything.  The suburbanites is a recent phenomenon.


Less and less people able to fix things.
Many kids dont even want to learn to drive these days . I guess driving means expenses and expenses means a part time job. Something else that seems to be going out of style. When i was 16, everyone wanted to drive and get a car,now it seems  many kids are fine with having their parents,or their friends parents cart them where they want to go. I refuse to do this which is probably why my daughter bought her own car at 17 with money she earned herself. Made me proud.


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## firefighterjake (Sep 1, 2018)

begreen said:


> And no radiant heat duct losses either.
> 
> My concern with this new crop of Chinese heat pumps is that they won't stand up over time. It's too early to tell. There are also a bunch of very cheap generators showing up from China now. You see them even being sold at grocery superstores like Aldi.  Folks that use them regularly are saying they are failing after a season of use. A good Honda or Yamaha generator under the same task will run for years.



Timely post . . . I have a Yamaha generator being shipped to me this week. Would have gone with a Honda, but the price difference was huge. That said, I've found Yamaha to be pretty reliable . . . and when it comes to things like generating power for multiple days without electricity . . . or heating/cooling a home with a heat pump I'll pay for reliably. I mean to say, if a TV dies it means I need to fork over $600 and not watch TV for a few days . . . when a generator dies in middle of a multi-day power outage it means no running water, no shower, no lights (other than lanterns) and a concern for the food spoiling in the freezer.


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## begreen (Sep 1, 2018)

I have a Yamaha 2400w. It has been converted to run on propane as well as gas. Sweet and quiet generator.


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## fbelec (Sep 2, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Even at 16 mini splits are more efficient than a window air which is usually 9 to 11. That said ,Its the reliability issue that worries most. I generally avoid all things china,even food items. If they can sell us toxic drywall, they will sell us anything.



look at the current rating of all the components that is the only way to rate how the unit will work power wise. seasonal energy efficiency ratio SEER and energy efficiency ratio's EER are two different things. anything to do with a central type of air conditioning is rated SEER and window units are rated EER the same number EER and SEER are two different animals. when you see a outdoor compressor rated at 14 SEER that is for the compressor only. they never included the power to run the fan on the indoor unit. depending on the size of the air handler that current can be 5 to 9 amps by itself.


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## Brian26 (Sep 2, 2018)

Supposedly the Mr Cools are just rebranded Pioneer units. The manuals are identical. Its thought someone in the states is just adding the quick disconnect fittings here after importing them.

I was also reading that these quick connect units were  briefly around a long time ago. Its thought the hvac industry made manufactures kill the concept as a technician would no longer be needed. I wouldn't be surprised if another manufacturer starts selling them. The mr cools have a pretty solid reputation on other forums. The main users seem ti be workshop/garage use and surprisingly marijuana growers.

Costco is also selling these ac units now. Sort of like a minisplit with a lineset that goes out a window. Neat concept that I would imagine is much more efficient than a window unit.


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## twd000 (Dec 23, 2018)

Looking for something to periodically heat my uninsulated 2-car garage here in New Hampshire.  It's under 700 square feet.  I would just run it while I'm out there brewing or woodworking.  If I could get my garage from 20 degrees up to 50, I would consider that a success.  How many BTUs do you think I would need for that application?


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## fbelec (Dec 24, 2018)

twd000 said:


> Looking for something to periodically heat my uninsulated 2-car garage here in New Hampshire.  It's under 700 square feet.  I would just run it while I'm out there brewing or woodworking.  If I could get my garage from 20 degrees up to 50, I would consider that a success.  How many BTUs do you think I would need for that application?



if this were a house a 1.5 ton unit would work but now your talking cement floor and if the ceiling is vented 3 tons would not work because your heat will be running out the vent in the roof. i've had a open house no sheetrock up yet 2200 sq ft house with a roof ridge vent to wire i was running a 260,000 btu propane torpedo running and it didn't even put a dent in the January cold


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 24, 2018)

twd000 said:


> Looking for something to periodically heat my uninsulated 2-car garage here in New Hampshire.  It's under 700 square feet.  I would just run it while I'm out there brewing or woodworking.  If I could get my garage from 20 degrees up to 50, I would consider that a success.  How many BTUs do you think I would need for that application?


Uninsulated spaces are very hard to heat. Add to that you are trying to bring up the air temp and everything in there in a very short time. First make sure the ceiling is closed up, insulated or not. ID start with a high BTU hot air propane like "fbelec" describes ,2nd choice,Oil hot air torpedo like a reddy heater but these have a little oil fume smell on startup and shut down. Better oil choice would be a vented oil hot air furnace.  Anything electric is out of the question except a radiant heater positioned above a work station like the ones lowes has above their cash registers. Warms the immediate work area without trying to heat the entire space.


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## peakbagger (Dec 24, 2018)

twd000 said:


> Looking for something to periodically heat my uninsulated 2-car garage here in New Hampshire.  It's under 700 square feet.  I would just run it while I'm out there brewing or woodworking.  If I could get my garage from 20 degrees up to 50, I would consider that a success.  How many BTUs do you think I would need for that application?



If you want quick heat, it may not be good match. Ideally these units are set and forget at one temperature especially as the outdoor air temps drop down. Its tough application as you may be heating the air but you have a lot of mass in the building that needs to warm up. Heats going to rise and its going to stratify . Unless its a real tight garage with an insulated ceiling you are mostly going to be melting snow off the roof. You could buy a jet heater to do the initial heat up and then switch to a big minisplit once its up to temp.


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## twd000 (Dec 24, 2018)

Yeah I know the oil or propane burners will put out heat faster than electric, but I often work on machines and have gas fumes in there. Also wood finishing projects with linseed oil and solvents.

I can close off and insulate the ceiling as the first step. I like the idea of a radiant heater to just warm the spot where I'm standing , instead of the entire garage


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## peakbagger (Dec 25, 2018)

I agree on the fumes from a jet heater but its hard to beat for a quick warm up. If you want to go to the trouble probably the best option that folks dont think about is radiant tubing in an insulated ceiling and walls hooked to a glycol loop. Sure radiant tubing in the floor is popular but not practical for an existing garage that doesnt have tubing poured in. Radiant works best with line of sight between the user and the tubing and traditionally in a shop the floor is covered with equipment.limiting line of site. Note that lot of folks get confused between convective and radiant heating. Convective heat heats the air and is best applied low as heated air rises, Radiant heat heats from the emitter to the receiver so an inch or two of Iso foam with tubing on top of it is probably the easiest install.  

If you have access to a heating system you can put in a heat exchanger and run a glycol loop out to the garage using the same underground piping used with OWBs. The high tech approach would be to install an air to glycol  mini split. They are a lot rarer than a standard minisplit.Tom in Maine, a member on this site has a lot of experience with air to glycol  units, might be best to start a conversation with him. He does have one listed on his website http://www.americansolartechnics.com/products/space-heat-pumps/. He was heating his shop with one at one point. One of the biggest gurus in home heating, John Siegenthaler, is also a big advocate of this approach. Of course radiant can only do so much, unless the garage is tight. Unlike regular minisplits no need for tech to purge and charge the tubing as the refrigerant stays outdoors


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## Highbeam (Dec 28, 2018)

peakbagger said:


> I agree on the fumes from a jet heater but its hard to beat for a quick warm up. If you want to go to the trouble probably the best option that folks dont think about is radiant tubing in an insulated ceiling and walls hooked to a glycol loop. Sure radiant tubing in the floor is popular but not practical for an existing garage that doesnt have tubing poured in. Radiant works best with line of sight between the user and the tubing and traditionally in a shop the floor is covered with equipment.limiting line of site. Note that lot of folks get confused between convective and radiant heating. Convective heat heats the air and is best applied low as heated air rises, Radiant heat heats from the emitter to the receiver so an inch or two of Iso foam with tubing on top of it is probably the easiest install.
> 
> If you have access to a heating system you can put in a heat exchanger and run a glycol loop out to the garage using the same underground piping used with OWBs. The high tech approach would be to install an air to glycol  mini split. They are a lot rarer than a standard minisplit.Tom in Maine, a member on this site has a lot of experience with air to glycol  units, might be best to start a conversation with him. He does have one listed on his website http://www.americansolartechnics.com/products/space-heat-pumps/. He was heating his shop with one at one point. One of the biggest gurus in home heating, John Siegenthaler, is also a big advocate of this approach. Of course radiant can only do so much, unless the garage is tight. Unlike regular minisplits no need for tech to purge and charge the tubing as the refrigerant stays outdoors



Man I wish those air to water minisplits would get some traction.


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## peakbagger (Dec 28, 2018)

I agree, right now I use a minisplit for supplemental winter heating. If I could find a viable air to water I would probably justify upgrading to low temp emitters in place of fin tube and switch to using the air to water for shoulder season heating.


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jan 26, 2019)

Anybody know how much they're actually selling these things for?  We had a Costco membership a few years ago but let it lapse.


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## semipro (Jan 26, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> a radiant heater positioned above a work station like the ones lowes has above their cash registers


@twd000 this is your best bet until the shop is sealed and insulated enough to handle some sort of warm air system.


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## peakbagger (Jan 27, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Man I wish those air to water minisplits would get some traction.



John Siegenthaler in his latest column in PME magazine stated that 2019 is the year of the air to water minisplit with "several companies read to roll out new products".. This column was part 2 of 2 on how to design with these systems and covered the cooling side. Unlike a standard minisplit, air to water is not a plug and play solution. There is lot of hardware indoors. He uses the same distribution piping for heating and cooling including a buffer tank and some complex controls. Integrating it with a wood boiler and storage would add some complexity. Probably best for folks with low temp radiant or hot air heating systems that have generously sized ductwork to deal with the low temperature water.


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## Highbeam (Jan 27, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> John Siegenthaler in his latest column in PME magazine stated that 2019 is the year of the air to water minisplit with "several companies read to roll out new products".. This column was part 2 of 2 on how to design with these systems and covered the cooling side. Unlike a standard minisplit, air to water is not a plug and play solution. There is lot of hardware indoors. He uses the same distribution piping for heating and cooling including a buffer tank and some complex controls. Integrating it with a wood boiler and storage would add some complexity. Probably best for folks with low temp radiant or hot air heating systems that have generously sized ductwork to deal with the low temperature water.



We’ve been hearing that for years though. Let’s hope it’s real! Markets other than North America have already moved on to co2 systems for among other things higher output temps.

I’m thinking an outdoor package unit is the most likely final product due to the sophisticated skills required to field install a split unit.


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## rowerwet (Jan 27, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> I agree on the fumes from a jet heater but its hard to beat for a quick warm up. If you want to go to the trouble probably the best option that folks dont think about is radiant tubing in an insulated ceiling and walls hooked to a glycol loop. Sure radiant tubing in the floor is popular but not practical for an existing garage that doesnt have tubing poured in. Radiant works best with line of sight between the user and the tubing and traditionally in a shop the floor is covered with equipment.limiting line of site. Note that lot of folks get confused between convective and radiant heating. Convective heat heats the air and is best applied low as heated air rises, Radiant heat heats from the emitter to the receiver so an inch or two of Iso foam with tubing on top of it is probably the easiest install.
> 
> If you have access to a heating system you can put in a heat exchanger and run a glycol loop out to the garage using the same underground piping used with OWBs. The high tech approach would be to install an air to glycol  mini split. They are a lot rarer than a standard minisplit.Tom in Maine, a member on this site has a lot of experience with air to glycol  units, might be best to start a conversation with him. He does have one listed on his website http://www.americansolartechnics.com/products/space-heat-pumps/. He was heating his shop with one at one point. One of the biggest gurus in home heating, John Siegenthaler, is also a big advocate of this approach. Of course radiant can only do so much, unless the garage is tight. Unlike regular minisplits no need for tech to purge and charge the tubing as the refrigerant stays outdoors


Personally,  I would just use a radiant quartz heater for uninsulated work areas


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## Brian26 (Jan 29, 2019)

Swamp_Yankee said:


> Anybody know how much they're actually selling these things for?  We had a Costco membership a few years ago but let it lapse.


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## peakbagger (Jan 29, 2019)

Hard to beat pricing tied with Costco's typically generous satisfaction guarantee. The reputation of the high end brands are they usually fail out of the box or fail later on because of physical damage not covered by the warranty. I would be curious if this lower end brand is similar or do they skimp on long term testing?.


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## Brian26 (Jan 29, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Hard to beat pricing tied with Costco's typically generous satisfaction guarantee. The reputation of the high end brands are they usually fail out of the box or fail later on because of physical damage not covered by the warranty. I would be curious if this lower end brand is similar or do they skimp on long term testing?.



All these cheap off brands are pretty much the same exact units. Same compressor specs, fans, remotes, installation manual's etc. Based on my research they are almost all made by Midea in China and whatever brand just slaps a sticker on them.

I spent a ton of time researching my cheap $800 unit and it specs out exactly to a Midea unit. It also is identical to a Carrier/Bryant which are just rebadged Mideas.

They pretty much all have GMCC Toshiba inverter compresors which are proven to be extremely reliable.

If installed correctly these things will run for a really long time. They are very popular with indoor marijuana grow rooms where they run 24/7.  Tons of people report them running for years nonstop with no issues. The few issues are usually related to poor installs such as bad flares. 

There is really only 2 fans, a compressor and a 4 way electronic refrigerant valve. Parts for these are dirt cheap as well as they all use pretty much the same parts.


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## maverick06 (Feb 4, 2019)

my 2 cents, after I looked into putting in one of these DIY units. I didnt. I paid a bucket more for a Mitsubishi unit. If I was putting in a minisplit, i wanted a really high efficiency one so that I didnt mind running it. The DIY ones were notably lower efficiency (16 SEER, mitshibushi is 21-23 depending), or had dubious SEER claims (I saw one claiming 32 SEER... you are just making up numbers at that point), non-ASHRE certified numbers. 

Also, I couldnt figure out how to manage the refrigerant lines, I didnt want extra material stashed/rolled behind the unit, seemed just like a liability of bending/damaging (kids/animals/weedeater). 

The Mr. cool style units only will heat to 5F, yes thats most of the time, but not all the time for me. The mitshibushi gets me to -15F, so i can run it all the time. 

I am in the house for the long term, so want a unit that will be efficient, and reliable for in excess of a decade... for $1000, yes, you could buy a few for what the mitshibushi one cost... definitely a good choice for many. I am satisfied with my choice, in terms of reliability, operation every day of the year, and expected life time, I think it was the right choice for me. 

Regardless of the specifics, a minisplit sure seems better than any other heating cooling options i have....


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## jeanw (Feb 9, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Less and less people able to fix things.
> Many kids dont even want to learn to drive these days . I guess driving means expenses and expenses means a part time job. Something else that seems to be going out of style. When i was 16, everyone wanted to drive and get a car,now it seems  many kids are fine with having their parents,or their friends parents cart them where they want to go. I refuse to do this which is probably why my daughter bought her own car at 17 with money she earned herself. Made me proud.


 well hallelujah Im so glad  and thrilled to hear about your daughter working and buying her own car.  a parent after my own heart,   But But I bet the insurance is more>
Blessings to y'all


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jun 8, 2019)

Finally took the plunge and ordered a 1.5 ton from Costco yesterday.  Interestingly that is the only model they sell now-I'm guessing that the 1, 2, and 3 ton models weren't big sellers so they discontinued them.  Since I like going through Costco for the price, free shipping, and the fact that they back up their products, I plan to eventually purchase three more for a total of 6 tons of cooling for our 120+ year old, somewhat leaky and poorly insulated house.  Four 1.5 ton zones controllable via WiFi/Alexa is probably the most efficient system I could possibly hope for given the parameters.  I figure that on the worst of days (high 90s with 90% humidity) I'll be using all 6 tons full out, and then at night be able to turn off all 3 tons downstairs, and throttle down the 3 tons upstairs until the morning.  The heat feature I'll play with.  We have hydronic baseboard fed by a Buderus oil boiler (which supplies DHW as well)-I'll have to do some math on oil (just under $3.00 a gallon) vs. electricity (about $0.11 kWh).  In any event, we're all glad to be going into a summer with something other than window shakers to keep things bearable.


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## begreen (Jun 8, 2019)

Spend some bucks sealing leaks and improving insulation on the house and you may only need 2 mini-splits. Improvements in the house envelope's insulation will payback year-round during the cooling and heating seasons.


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jun 9, 2019)

begreen said:


> Spend some bucks sealing leaks and improving insulation on the house and you may only need 2 mini-splits. Improvements in the house envelope's insulation will payback year-round during the cooling and heating seasons.



Air sealing/insulating this place is sort of a never ending project (I buy Great Stuff by the case ) that I pick up and put down whenever I have time.  I think maybe we could get by with 3 (4.5 tons) but 2 would probably be a undersized for our square footage and climate zone even with better insulation and air sealing.


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## MTY (Jun 9, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Even at 16 mini splits are more efficient than a window air which is usually 9 to 11. That said ,Its the reliability issue that worries most. I generally avoid all things china,even food items. If they can sell us toxic drywall, they will sell us anything.


If they will put melamine in baby formula, they will do anything.


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## begreen (Jun 9, 2019)

Here we put chit in food and spin it as "better living through chemistry".

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/03/health/pfas-food-supply-fda/index.html


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 10, 2019)

begreen said:


> Spend some bucks sealing leaks and improving insulation on the house and you may only need 2 mini-splits. Improvements in the house envelope's insulation will payback year-round during the cooling and heating seasons.


 This cant be emphasized enough. Every time i do a nice tight rehab i cant get over how little energy it takes to keep it warm and cool. But then you have those who will open the windows on 95 degree days when the house is 75 inside.


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## CaptSpiff (Jun 10, 2019)

Swamp_Yankee said:


> Air sealing/insulating this place is sort of a never ending project (I buy Great Stuff by the case ) that I pick up and put down whenever I have time.  I think maybe we could get by with 3 (4.5 tons) but 2 would probably be a undersized for our square footage and climate zone even with better insulation and air sealing.


Beware the "sales pitch" of bigger tonnage is better. I much prefer a Unit pulling out the humidity by running longer, compared to walking into a cold but clammy room.


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jun 10, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> Beware the "sales pitch" of bigger tonnage is better. I much prefer a Unit pulling out the humidity by running longer, compared to walking into a cold but clammy room.



True, but this is where mini-splits shine.  With 3 or 4 units I can operate each one individually, so if/when I need 4.5-6 tons I can run the system full out, but when I don't, I can shut some of them off, and do it with voice commands to boot.


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## maple1 (Jun 11, 2019)

IMO buying splits that aren't max efficiency cold climate capable is kind of a waste of potential.


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jun 11, 2019)

maple1 said:


> IMO buying splits that aren't max efficiency cold climate capable is kind of a waste of potential.



I already have heat-I need air conditioning, and this is the best way to do it.  I'd love to build a superinsulated net-zero house with ground source heat pumps for all heating and cooling needs powered by off-grid solar, but for right now, I'm working with what I've got.


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## fbelec (Jun 15, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> This cant be emphasized enough. Every time i do a nice tight rehab i cant get over how little energy it takes to keep it warm and cool. But then you have those who will open the windows on 95 degree days when the house is 75 inside.



boy do i understand this


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## peakbagger (Jun 15, 2019)

fbelec said:


> boy do i understand this



Just as bad are the folks who leave the windows open in damp weather with high relative humidity and then complain the AC will not cool the place down. They dont realize how much capacity is used up condensing water vapor out of the air. Far better to leave it running with windows closed despite the marginally cooler temps outdoors.


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## begreen (Jun 15, 2019)

fbelec said:


> boy do i understand this


It took several years for my wife to catch on.


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## hockeypuck (Jul 12, 2019)

I just installed a 2 ton diy mr cool. Did everything myself.  Install was pretty easy.  Works great.  Obviously longevity is a concern, but since I do not live in Florida where AC is a must, I felt the savings was worth the risk.  So glad the noisy window units are no longer needed.  It is quiet inside and out. Outside side condenser is surprisingly quiet, so those who might be afraid of disturbing neighbors, I would not worry.  

Now if I lived in an area where you needed AC to keep your house from molding up, I would spend the money and have a local reputable shop put in the AC of their recommendation.


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jul 12, 2019)

hockeypuck said:


> Now if I lived in an area where you needed AC to keep your house from molding up, I would spend the money and have a local reputable shop put in the AC of their recommendation.



Why?  I just did a 1.5 ton Mr. Cool on our second floor and its fantastic-and we definitely need it here (NJ).


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## semipro (Jul 12, 2019)

hockeypuck said:


> I just installed a 2 ton diy mr cool. Did everything myself.  Install was pretty easy.  Works great.  Obviously longevity is a concern, but since I do not live in Florida where AC is a must, I felt the savings was worth the risk.  So glad the noisy window units are no longer needed.  It is quiet inside and out. Outside side condenser is surprisingly quiet, so those who might be afraid of disturbing neighbors, I would not worry.
> 
> Now if I lived in an area where you needed AC to keep your house from molding up, I would spend the money and have a local reputable shop put in the AC of their recommendation.


Thanks for sharing that.  Outside noise is a major concern to me.


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jul 12, 2019)

semipro said:


> Thanks for sharing that.  Outside noise is a major concern to me.



I was shocked at how quiet ours was when I started it up.  I had previously planned to only locate the condensers on the side of the house opposite our deck/patio area-now that I know how quiet they are I am reconsidering.


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## hockeypuck (Jul 13, 2019)

Swamp_Yankee said:


> Why?  I just did a 1.5 ton Mr. Cool on our second floor and its fantastic-and we definitely need it here (NJ).


I am not sure of the climate in your area but in Florida, if you loose ac for a while, mold will grow inside the house.  I do not have to worry about that here in NH.   My point was around the durability and serviceability of these units.  Unknown at this point.  Not sure how a local HVAC guy would deal with this unit, if at all.  When I was installing generators, I would not touch a generac whole house unit (mid 2000's).   One you service a unit, the owner thinks its your responsibility now.  I bought this unit with eyes wide open.  I have friends in the HVAC industry that could charge this if necessary, but I would not hold them accountable for any future issues.


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## Brian26 (Jul 14, 2019)

maple1 said:


> IMO buying splits that aren't max efficiency cold climate capable is kind of a waste of potential.



I looked into the Mr cool units but the heating capacity is pretty terrible. They start dropping off capacity at like 45-50 degrees. Good cold weather units can put out 100 percent capacity below zero. I would use these for cooling only.


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## Highbeam (Jul 14, 2019)

Brian26 said:


> I looked into the Mr cool units but the heating capacity is pretty terrible. They start dropping off capacity at like 45-50 degrees. Good cold weather units can put out 100 percent capacity below zero. I would use these for cooling only.
> View attachment 245699



Looks like they drop to like 40% of rated capacity at zero degrees. Just buy 2.5 times the rated capacity you need or maybe a few of these units. 

I’ve wondered if this isn’t just a shell game where the good brands just underrate their equipment so that they still deliver at low temps.


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## peakbagger (Jul 14, 2019)

Having lived through a couple of cold winters with my Mitsubishi cold climate I can confirm that yes it does put out heat down to -10 but not much. Folks forget that as the temp drops the heating demand goes up significantly so they are trying to heat a house with a unit that is derated. 

A friend of the family is selling rebuilt Monitors kerosene heaters to people who thought they could heat their house in cold climate with cold source minisplit. Its great supplemental heat in standard home but plan on another sources of heat for really cold conditions like a wood stove and a pile of seasoned wood.


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## begreen (Jul 14, 2019)

Yes, you'll want to have a backup supplement unless living in a milder climate than NH. This is a hyper-heat unit, right? How well does it heat the place at +10 or 15ºF?

A ducted system makes this option easier. Adding a resistance coil box is straight forward. I am considering this path now that Mitsubishi and Daikin are making replacement options for central hvac systems. Our system was high-end in 2006, but it cuts over to resistance heat at 25º. We are burning wood at that point, but during a bad temperature inversion and burn ban we are running on the electric heat coils.


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## peakbagger (Jul 14, 2019)

I only have a one ton hyper heat unit on my main floor. I can carry my house if its 20 F or higher. and running 24/7. Anything consistently less than 20 F and it reallly cant keep up as the heat loss from the house probably exceeds the units rating. Around 10 F especially on snowy days it starts to defrost more often and the air temp leaving the unit is cooling down. Its still warmer than the room temp. I have an oil furnace as my ultimate backup if I not around to feed the boiler. Sure I could install more units but hard to justify 3K for something that wouldnt need t be used often.

A utility in Maine was one the first to really push cold climate minisplits. They never represented them a the only heat source. Maine has old housing stock and seniors so the concept was keep the main house cool using the existing heating system and then warm up a day space with minisplit for the owners to hang out in during the day.


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## begreen (Jul 14, 2019)

Ah, so it's also a case of insufficient capacity. I'm impressed that a single 1ton can heat the place down to 20º. How many sq ft in the house?


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## peakbagger (Jul 14, 2019)

950 square foot first floor and about 350 square feet of heated space on the second floor. Built 1988, 2x6 walls and a few walls have been retrofit with 1/2" isoboard inside the studs and the majority of the windows have cellular blinds with side tracks.


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## begreen (Jul 15, 2019)

That's a long way better than our old house. 3 ton heat pump is working hard at 25º.


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## peakbagger (Jul 15, 2019)

I guess we need to come up with new word that lines up with the "Negawatts" concept and call it "Negabtus". The cheapest BTU is one you dont need


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jul 16, 2019)

hockeypuck said:


> I am not sure of the climate in your area but in Florida, if you loose ac for a while, mold will grow inside the house.  I do not have to worry about that here in NH.   My point was around the durability and serviceability of these units.  Unknown at this point.  Not sure how a local HVAC guy would deal with this unit, if at all.  When I was installing generators, I would not touch a generac whole house unit (mid 2000's).   One you service a unit, the owner thinks its your responsibility now.  I bought this unit with eyes wide open.  I have friends in the HVAC industry that could charge this if necessary, but I would not hold them accountable for any future issues.



I think Mr. Cool did their homework as far as their intended customer base with these units.  If you're willing to buy one, run the dedicated 20A/240V circuit yourself, mount the units, drill a hole in the side of your house, etc...you're not just going to continuously call an HVAC pro for repairs and "hold their responsible," if and when something goes wrong.  Rather, they are going to figure it out themselves or find someone who can help.  I spoke with a buddy who is an HVAC pro who told me that if I ever had issues that he would look at it, and in all likelihood the parts were generic.  These things are all made by two or three huge companies in China and a lot of the parts are the same. 



Brian26 said:


> I looked into the Mr cool units but the heating capacity is pretty terrible. They start dropping off capacity at like 45-50 degrees. Good cold weather units can put out 100 percent capacity below zero. I would use these for cooling only.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I doubt I'll ever use mine for heating.  For us these were a low-cost DIY solution to a 120 year old farmhouse with no AC and no ductwork and so far it's working great.  After enduring last summer either being uncomfortably hot while trying to sleep at night and/or having to sleep with the drone of a window shaker in my ear, this summer is a dream come true.  We set the unit to "Dry" at night before we go to bed.  It runs just enough to cut the humidity down-last night we were sitting in our bedroom watching the evening news and though it was 78°F in the room we were perfectly comfortable because the humidity was so low.


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## begreen (Jul 16, 2019)

It should be great for shoulder season heating. I'd try it out.


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## hockeypuck (Jul 16, 2019)

I had Dakin unit in my other house and all I used for was cool september and october mornings.  I have a pellet, wood and oil heat.  Really could care less about the heating capability.  Getting rid of the window AC units was a must.


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## Highbeam (Jul 16, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Sure I could install more units but hard to justify 3K for something that wouldnt need t be used often.



I don't think it is hard to justify when people spend 10-15k installing a central system. Incrementally you are spending 3k more for that little bit of need but as a system your cost is 3k more for a system that does the job vs. one that doesn't.

Nice to have a redundant heat pump in case of failure too. If each unit (assuming you need 2) is running at 50% throttle that will be quieter, more comfortable, and perhaps more efficient than one unit running at 100%.


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## Swamp_Yankee (Jul 17, 2019)

begreen said:


> It should be great for shoulder season heating. I'd try it out.



I'd have to make sure there wasn't any redundancy between our boiler (Buderus with Logamatic 2107 controller) and the mini-splits.  The Logamatic controller does very well at dialing in the needed amount of water heating based on the outdoor temperature and the return temperatures.  I'll have to talk to my boiler guy.


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## maple1 (Jul 18, 2019)

Swamp_Yankee said:


> I'd have to make sure there wasn't any redundancy between our boiler (Buderus with Logamatic 2107 controller) and the mini-splits.  The Logamatic controller does very well at dialing in the needed amount of water heating based on the outdoor temperature and the return temperatures.  I'll have to talk to my boiler guy.



I don't think I would be too worried. With the mini-splits running, there would simply be less heat demand & less call for heat from the oil thermostats - the outside temp isn't what controls the heat delivered to the house. I suppose there could be a bit of an increase in stand by heat loss, if the boiler was being kept hotter than absolutely needed. But those are pretty decent boilers with minimal loss to start with.


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## peakbagger (Jul 18, 2019)

I think Mitsubishi and LG have some sort of proprietary control net ports built into their units that allow remote control of their systems to integrate with other equipment. Commercial buildings probably can afford to use this option but expect a homeowner would not.


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## hockeypuck (Mar 15, 2020)

Swamp_Yankee said:


> I think Mr. Cool did their homework as far as their intended customer base with these units.  If you're willing to buy one, run the dedicated 20A/240V circuit yourself, mount the units, drill a hole in the side of your house, etc...you're not just going to continuously call an HVAC pro for repairs and "hold their responsible," if and when something goes wrong.  Rather, they are going to figure it out themselves or find someone who can help.  I spoke with a buddy who is an HVAC pro who told me that if I ever had issues that he would look at it, and in all likelihood the parts were generic.  These things are all made by two or three huge companies in China and a lot of the parts are the same.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt I'll ever use mine for heating.  For us these were a low-cost DIY solution to a 120 year old farmhouse with no AC and no ductwork and so far it's working great.  After enduring last summer either being uncomfortably hot while trying to sleep at night and/or having to sleep with the drone of a window shaker in my ear, this summer is a dream come true.  We set the unit to "Dry" at night before we go to bed.  It runs just enough to cut the humidity down-last night we were sitting in our bedroom watching the evening news and though it was 78°F in the room we were perfectly comfortable because the humidity was so low.


Just as an update on my Mr Cool Unit.. I have been using it to warm our living area on mornings that are above 28 F.  I underestimated the number of times I would use it as a heat pump.  If I get 3 years out of this thing, it will be more that worth it.  I would recommend one to any mechanically inclined DIYer.  Even if it give up the ghost in a few years, I still have the electrical hook ups for a new unit.  So glad I do not have to look forward to dragging the three window units up from be basement anymore.  Moral of the story, go do some online research and if you are thinking of getting one, order it now and take you time to do the install before the heat arrives.


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## mustash29 (Mar 15, 2020)

Interesting thread.

I have an 1800 sqft tri level.  Main floor is bedrooms (garage below on slab), kitchen & dining room (rec / stove room below on slab).  Go down a half flight of stairs to the sunken living room & foyer with 12' ceilings & big windows (basement below).  Go down another 1/2 flight of stairs to rec / stove room.  This is a slab and even with the garage slab.

Currently getting by with a noisy 8K in the bedroom window and (believe it or not) a good old fashioned 1982 GE/Hotpoint 12,800 btu R-12 "freezer" with an EER of 12 in the living room.  Problem is the MBR is the south west corner of the house and bakes in the middle of the day.  Kitchen is west side and bakes in the late afternoon sun.  Living room is cold.  Rec room and basement humidity are a non-issue.  Worst part - I am a 12 hr shift worker so sleeping in a hot MBR is no good.

Got quotes for - 
$10 K for a 3 ton Mitsubishi central A/C unit to hit the main level, or
$9 K for a 27 K Mitsubishi hyper heat compressor with 9K head in MBR & 18 K head in other end of house, or

$7 K for a 24 K Fujitsu XLHT with 9K head in MBR & 18 K head in other end of house.

Or I could just do 2 DIY's for about 3 K.

Heat is a non-issue.  I like my oil HW baseboards & wood stove (soon to be boiler).  Also have a 6 K Nyletherm to hook up to the DHW so basement / rec room humidity is definitely not a concern. 

Decisions.....decisions.


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## Highbeam (Mar 16, 2020)

I would never say heat is non issue. It’s a nonissue to purchase a heat pump that heats and cools. This way you have a source of heat that can be used as a backup, supplement, or maybe even cheaper alternative to oil.


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## maple1 (Mar 17, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> I would never say heat is non issue. It’s a nonissue to purchase a heat pump that heats and cools. This way you have a source of heat that can be used as a backup, supplement, or maybe even cheaper alternative to oil.



Exactly. I see no reason to put in cooling only mini-splits, when they can make heat cheaper than anything else out there. Except maybe NG where it is priced cheap (some places it's not).


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## peakbagger (Mar 17, 2020)

My original Mitsubishi minisplit is a cooling only unit. It went in before the hyperheat technology was being marketed in the US. There was a heat option  for extra dollars but the option was not capable of cold weather operation, I think the old units turned off when it went under 45 degrees.  I would like to swap it over to hyper heat cold climate unit but hard to justify junking a unit that has been running perfectly for over 10 years. The tubing run from my unit to the outdoor unit is complex and since it was installed I had some foam work done that makes replacing the tubing a major project. I have been advised that many installers will not guarantee a new install using the old tubing due to fear of incompatible lubricant. On the other hand I have talked to a couple of techs and they feel as long as the refrigerant is the same it should not be an issue unless the compressor "burns up" and pulls crap into the tubing.  

Be aware that the clock is ticking on the current refrigerant used for many minisplits, there are replacement gases but its going to lead to initial price increases and potential reliability issues on the ramp up. The old refrigerants will still be available for service but the reality is unless its a bad install or external damage, rarely do known brand  minisplits need a recharge.


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## Brian26 (Mar 18, 2020)

The game changer is if you have solar panels with net metering and mini splits. No fossil fuels being burned and your heat is essentially free. I only pay $10 a month for the connection charge. I dont even bother burning wood much anymore. I set my splits to 70 and the house is maintained perfectly at that temp.

Here are my panels powering both my mini splits and sending most of the power back to the grid. Both of my 12k mini splits have been pretty much running nonstop this whole winter. Its staggering how little power they actually use. Both units combined have averaged 500 kwhs in Jan and Feb.


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## peakbagger (Mar 18, 2020)

Brian and I may not agree on running them in very cold weather, but I completely agree that minisplits with  solar and a good net metering contract is a home run. If someone has the real estate for extra panels, its not that expensive to add a few extra panels to cover the mini splits. 

The key is to make sure the details on the utilities net metering fit. The best net metering is a perpetual option where the utility never resets the contract. Many utilities do a yearly reset where they either buy any surplus and reset the contract at a certain date or they just reset the contract and keep the surplus with no compensation at that date. If the reset date is in the fall then summer surplus really is of no value for the winter. If its in February or March then its a better fit.

  I have the perpetual version and try to carry a surplus of 600 kwh at the low end of the year which is usually February.  I start running the mini split more often if I am over the target but if I am getting close I run the wood boiler a bit longer. Once March comes around and my solar output bumps up big time, then I swap over to the minisplit once nigh time temps are over 20 F.


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## semipro (Jun 10, 2020)

hockeypuck said:


> I just installed a 2 ton diy mr cool. Did everything myself.  Install was pretty easy.  Works great.  Obviously longevity is a concern, but since I do not live in Florida where AC is a must, I felt the savings was worth the risk.  So glad the noisy window units are no longer needed.  It is quiet inside and out. Outside side condenser is surprisingly quiet, so those who might be afraid of disturbing neighbors...


Are you still happy with this unit?  I'm considering replacing my 2 older ducted central units with two Mr. Cool Universal systems.

I'd be willing to pay more for better quality but the price of the Mitsubishis and Daikens seem to be much unreasonably higher.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 22, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> I would never say heat is non issue. It’s a nonissue to purchase a heat pump that heats and cools. This way you have a source of heat that can be used as a backup, supplement, or maybe even cheaper alternative to oil.


Agreed ,no way would i want cool only. In pa we need both sometime in the same week. Getting one installed this week , by my tenant who is behind on his rent and is a cert. HVAC.  Im planning to go from a little wood and mostly coal to Mini and more wood for heat. The coal is cheap but dusty even though i have hot water baseboard.  Ill save it for the 2 worst months of the winter.  Ill have less than 1k in a 1 ton unit.  Unit and Materials about $600.


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## fbelec (Jun 24, 2020)

that's cheap money


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## maple1 (Jun 24, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Agreed ,no way would i want cool only. In pa we need both sometime in the same week. Getting one installed this week , by my tenant who is behind on his rent and is a cert. HVAC.  Im planning to go from a little wood and mostly coal to Mini and more wood for heat. The coal is cheap but dusty even though i have hot water baseboard.  Ill save it for the 2 worst months of the winter.  Ill have less than 1k in a 1 ton unit.  Unit and Materials about $600.



What exactly are you getting?

I might get 2 or 3 at that price.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 24, 2020)

In my last house I had a 40k BTU Mitsubishi.  It was nearly silent.  Amazingly quiet.
Cost about $20 per month on super hot months for a 2000sqft house with super high ceilings.
I can't recommend the enough.  I had such a good experience, I'd never buy anything else.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 24, 2020)

maple1 said:


> What exactly are you getting?
> 
> I might get 2 or 3 at that price.


Its called Comfort-aire . These things are notoriosly price jacked by installers.  They seem to be getting , 3 or 4 times the equipment cost for a few hours work,going by some of the local pricing.  Ill be paying about $50 an hour for the tech who happens to be my tenant and still come out under 1k. A Gree the same size is 1k-$1200 just for the unit not including the line kit. I may go for a higher end model down the road but , doing the numbers, im not so sure they are worth the extra cost.  I have several properties id like to install these depending on how they perform. Ill give a better breakdown after the install which starts today.


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## maple1 (Jun 24, 2020)

These things (in general) are really good at cheap heating, but almost ridiculous when it comes to cooling using next to no juice. So far this year we have only had ours on 'dry' (dehumidify), and the house has been super comfy. I thought someone switched to a/c the other day coming into the main room, seemed super chill, but no, still on dry. Even on a/c, a huge improvement over the window shakers.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 24, 2020)

Ill probably need 2 or 3 ,this a old barn is about 3000SF.  And not very well insulated.


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## peakbagger (Jun 24, 2020)

My bet is its low end mini that is not cold climate so they can make them cheap. It basically window rattler parts in a different form factor. Its the standard gamble for chinese products, roll the dice on quality control and long term performance versus generally higher reliability/durability of a name brand part.

Then again with a HVAC tech at your fingertips it may be worth it, for me getting my unit fixed is probably a $300 minimum bill just for tech to show up and all he will do is check the charge.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 24, 2020)

The tech has installed boatloads of these units and claims he never had a single problem or complaint yet.  Gives me some unbelievable heating cost numbers from his own house that i still need to see personally to believe ,but i have no reason to doubt him actually. He used to heat with coal but is now thrilled with the performance of these minisplits. Ill probably do a Hi eff Gree for the next one just to compare.


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## peakbagger (Jun 24, 2020)

No doubt PA is in the sweet spot for performance of a cold climate minisplit. Northern NH is definitely on the fringe but it still makes sense for me for shoulder season and occasional AC in the summer (I have been using mine during this record heat spell up north.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 24, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> it still makes sense for me for shoulder season and occasional AC in the summer (I have been using mine during this record heat spell up north.


My GE window unit took a dump after 1 season so im now without anything on the first floor so im baking lately. Yes i want these mainly for shoulder season which is basically 50% of the time. I still have oil and wood stove to tackle the coldest winter months.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 24, 2020)

I forgot about the Summer AC part so the mini is good for 75% of the time as opposed to 50% spring and fall and probably half the winter as well.


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## CaptSpiff (Jun 24, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Agreed ,no way would i want cool only. In pa we need both sometime in the same week. Getting one installed this week , by my tenant who is behind on his rent and is a cert. HVAC.  Im planning to go from a little wood and mostly coal to Mini and more wood for heat. The coal is cheap but dusty even though i have hot water baseboard.  Ill save it for the 2 worst months of the winter.  Ill have less than 1k in a 1 ton unit.  Unit and Materials about $600.


Wait,... you've found a mini-split for that price? Does that include the tubing and electric cable?

I was looking at a 12k btu (1 ton) no-name (Pioneer) pickup at Home Depot, and it listed a minimum operating outside temp of +5 degF, for about $950. Got a source for your's?


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## Brian26 (Jun 25, 2020)

I have spent significant time cross referencing units and most of them are all either made by Midea or Gree. The cheaper $600-800 units are usually not hyper heat and have significantly  lower cooling and heating performance.  A hyper heat unit with a vapor injection compressor will usually run around $900-1400.  My $1300 Gree has an insane SEER rating of 30.5 and HSPF of 14.

I have a 12k Midea floor console and 12k Gree Sapphire that has been heating and cooling my entire house all year.  They cost me nothing to run as I use net metered solar but here is the electrical consumption this year on both units. Jan and Feb they used around 500 kwhs and this month in cooling they only used 70 kwhs! It's been crazy hot here as well.

You can see on my data the lower floor unit carries most of the heating load in the winter. In the summer the upstairs unit carries most of the cooling load.

As far as cold weather heating performance the Gree claims 90 percent capacity at -22 and the Midea 78 percent. I am on the shoreline so its mild here in the winter but did experience some single digit temperatures this past winter. Both units weren't even running close to full load and were pumping out 120+ degree heat.  Watching the electrical consumption during mild weather its eye opening how efficient and little power these units use.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 25, 2020)

CaptSpiff said:


> Wait,... you've found a mini-split for that price? Does that include the tubing and electric cable?
> 
> I was looking at a 12k btu (1 ton) no-name (Pioneer) pickup at Home Depot, and it listed a minimum operating outside temp of +5 degF, for about $950. Got a source for your's?


Yes 15 ft line kit was included but i assume thats the whole sale  price or what installers pay for the equipment. Of course your installer will add a price premium as is normal.    You wont find that price at Home Depot although if your buying the Gree Brand , Home Depot price is closer to the wholesale price.  The problem you will have if installing yourself is the warranty ,plus you do need some equipment ,vacuum pump and guages.  My installer tells me that he can get any brand from his supplier but the units he uses have all been performing flawless so as of yet has no reason to switch to the more expensive brands.  First impression:These things are amazingly quiet.


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## Brian26 (Jun 25, 2020)

This is interesting. Mr Cool has a new drop in whole house inverter central unit now for $2859. The specs claim 100 percent heating capacity at -5 and 78 percent at -22.  It's made by Midea.  There is a video of an install and it heating a house at -24 temps in North Dakota.

Exceeds Conventional Heat Pump Performance Ranges
Unparalleled Heating: 100% at -5°F outside temp*
78% Heating Capacity at -22°F outside temp*
Enhanced Cooling: 100% at 115°F outside temp*
78% Cooling Capacity at 130°F outside temp*










						MRCOOL Universal Series DC Inverter Split System  |  MRCOOL
					

Advanced DC Inverter Technology. The MRCOOL Universal Series -  Up to 20 SEER Central Heat & Air Systems




					mrcool.com


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## semipro (Jun 25, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> This is interesting. Mr Cool has a new drop in whole house inverter central unit now for $2859. The specs claim 100 percent heating capacity at -5 and 78 percent at -22.  It's made by Midea.  There is a video of an install and it heating a house at -24 temps in North Dakota.
> 
> Exceeds Conventional Heat Pump Performance Ranges
> Unparalleled Heating: 100% at -5°F outside temp*
> ...



This is the unit I referenced in my earlier post.  I've ordered one from IWAE.com.  While the reviews seem good, I have noticed that certain features like dehumidification mode and configurable air handler fan speeds aren't advertised for this system.  It will, however, work with most standard thermostats and reputedly is very quiet.  Their line system is also interesting as it comes pre-charged with coolant so specialized AC tools are not required (e.g., vacuum pump, gauges, etc.).


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## CaptSpiff (Jun 25, 2020)

Thanks Oak. I'll be looking for that end of summer review, and the end of next winter as the main difference is likely the performance at below 10 degF.

As to that "MrCool" above, I'm impressed that it can be wall mounted with so little space between wall & back of unit. I though most of the airflow in is thru backside, thereby needing a 12 inches of air space. I guess I've got a lot to learn.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 25, 2020)

CaptSpiff said:


> Thanks Oak. I'll be looking for that end of summer review, and the end of next winter as the main difference is likely the performance at below 10 degF.


I doubt ill be using it below 20 degrees. It rarely goes below Zero here and either the Wood stove, Coal Boiler or oil boiler will likely be doing the heavy lifting at that point. I may just to see how it works at low temps but 12000 BTUS will hardly make a dent in a 3000 Sq.ft not so greatly insulated 100 yr old 3 story house. I usually need closer to 80000 Btus continuously when its very cold.  In summer 8k each on 2nd and 3rd floor manages quite well for cooling.  1st floor is mostly underground so doesnt need hardly any cooling.


----------



## Highbeam (Jun 26, 2020)

Just let it reduce your wood/coal consumption. Let them work together.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jun 27, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Just let it reduce your wood/coal consumption. Let them work together.


It will,for the entire shoulder season which is the lions share of the year.  Its such a pain starting a wood fire or a coal stoker fire just to take a few degrees of chill out of the house starting on cold nights in september.  For reference i usually spend less than $50 all summer for AC but anywhere from $600 to $900 a season for heat when using oil or coal,if i dont run the wood stove much.  So the heat function will get more use.


----------



## maple1 (Jun 27, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> It will,for the entire shoulder season which is the lions share of the year.  Its such a pain starting a wood fire or a coal stoker fire just to take a few degrees of chill out of the house starting on cold nights in september.  For reference i usually spend less than $50 all summer for AC but anywhere from $600 to $900 a season for heat when using oil or coal,if i dont run the wood stove much.  So the heat function will get more use.



Darn right.  Shoulder seasons can eat a pile of fuel, slowly but steadily. All those cold starts. And the hassle of it. Our 2 splits can cover everything pretty darn good, except for maybe 2-3 coldest winter months. Which they still do OK in, but  running cost goes up. That's when burning steady kicks in.

But this near zero cost a/c and dehumidifying thing in the summer is a big added bonus here. Wasn't really on our radar before, but now that we have it, oh yeah.


----------



## lsucet (Jun 27, 2020)

Last year I installed a system of four indoor units. I bought it from Alpine Home Air, it is a Blueridge brand. Yes, it is Chinese. It is working like a champ. I contacted many contractors in n the pass to install a good brand system and the answer I got from them was that they do not service my area. Those they do, have the schedule full for months. I went online and got this system. Installed it myself. Yes, I bought some tool including a micron gauge. (Manifold gauges don't tell  you the truth). I vacuumed the lines set, put nitrogen overnight. Vacuum down in the 200 microns and it hold there fine. Open the valves and lets enjoy some cooling and heating. I did buy a HVAC scale, always keep a cylinder of r410a refrigerant in case I need to do any repair. I called tech support and tell them that I am refrigerant ASE certified and I know how work on it and they told me no problem. I explained to them the situation to get a technician here in case something happens and they told me it is okay, we will deal with it. I contacted them for an issue I had with two rooms getting too hot and overshooting the set point and they guide me to pull some information out of the outdoor unit. They send me a PDF file with part of the engineer manual and what I need to change in the settings. The problem was not the system, is those rooms are small and the +/- set points needs to be changed on those two indoor units. 
Sometime we need to go with what is practical and available to us. Those high end brands, not even want to give support to the consumers. You have to go through a contractor and wait and see when he wants to get his butt over here. And at the end when warranty is over, I will have to deal with big expenses if something happens and I need someone to come. In town they not even want to sell you a cylinder of 410a refrigerant. They said you need a license. Well, you can get all what you want on Amazon or eBay, free shipping and cheaper. Durability wise, I can't tell but it is working great and tech support have been helpful when I need them. Do it myself was and is the best choice for me.


----------



## sportbikerider78 (Jun 29, 2020)

CaptSpiff said:


> Wait,... you've found a mini-split for that price? Does that include the tubing and electric cable?
> 
> I was looking at a 12k btu (1 ton) no-name (Pioneer) pickup at Home Depot, and it listed a minimum operating outside temp of +5 degF, for about $950. Got a source for your's?



When I did my install, what cable to use was very confusing if you look at kits on line.  Some of them were very expensive for a short run.  I was doing about 90' of runs, so it really mattered to me.  I called Mitsubishi, they said "normal 3 wire indoor Romex".  
I even called back the next day to talk to a different tech...same answer.  

Good enough for me.


----------



## hockeypuck (Jun 30, 2020)

semipro said:


> Are you still happy with this unit?  I'm considering replacing my 2 older ducted central units with two Mr. Cool Universal systems.
> 
> I'd be willing to pay more for better quality but the price of the Mitsubishis and Daikens seem to be much unreasonably higher.


Sorry I am late on the reply.  I would do it again.  I am only in my second year but I was only $2000 (all materials) for a 24k bty unit.  It is quiet inside and out.  Heats well down to 25 F, but I have wood insert and pellet stove so that does not matter.  It works great to take the chill out of the air in the heating shoulder season.  I did the electrical work myself, licensed electrician.   I could not see spending 5 to 7k on a unit I could install in 4 hours myself.


----------



## hockeypuck (Jun 30, 2020)

hockeypuck said:


> Sorry I am late on the reply.  I would do it again.  I am only in my second year but I was only $2000 (all materials) for a 24k bty unit.  It is quiet inside and out.  Heats well down to 25 F, but I have wood insert and pellet stove so that does not matter.  It works great to take the chill out of the air in the heating shoulder season.  I did the electrical work myself, licensed electrician.   I could not see spending 5 to 7k on a unit I could install in 4 hours myself.


This is the exact unit. 









						MRCOOL DIY Gen-3 23,000 BTU 20 SEER ENERGY STAR Ductless Mini Split Air Conditioner & Heat Pump w/ 25 ft. Install Kit 230-Volt DIY24-HP-230B25 - The Home Depot
					

The MrCool DIY 3rd Generation 20 SEER 24,000 BTU/h ENERGY STAR Ductless Heat Pump is designed for simple, amateur installation. Using pre-charged R410A Quick Connect Linesets, anyone with a few common



					www.homedepot.com


----------



## begreen (Jul 8, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> My $1300 Gree has an insane SEER rating of 30.5 and HSPF of 14.


That is insanely good. I like the floor console idea, but don't see that option for Gree. They do sell larger units for ducted heating/cooling but so far I only find them in Australia and 3 phase powered.


----------



## begreen (Jul 8, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> This is interesting. Mr Cool has a new drop in whole house inverter central unit now for $2859. The specs claim 100 percent heating capacity at -5 and 78 percent at -22.  It's made by Midea.  There is a video of an install and it heating a house at -24 temps in North Dakota.
> 
> Exceeds Conventional Heat Pump Performance Ranges
> Unparalleled Heating: 100% at -5°F outside temp*
> ...



The 3 &4 ton units don't have a much higher HSPF or SEER than our old American Standard Heritage 16, but they are claiming 100% output at 14ºF and our unit would be running at less than 50% at that temp. Is this mostly the compressor difference? Why doesn't this show in the HSPF rating?


----------



## gggvan (Jul 11, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> Consumer Reports actually recently said some good things about the Harbor Freight Predator generators. Not a uniform thumbs up but for some uses they said they could be a better fit than a Honda. That said Chinese gear from unknown brand names do have pretty abysmal quality control and longevity.


I bought a hf generator for ~300 with coupon my wife found.  2 seasons,  4 outtages, still running. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Aug 24, 2020)

Sams has a Mr Cool 12k kit for $699.  But their more efficient unit of the same size is $1299


----------



## semipro (Aug 24, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> This is interesting. Mr Cool has a new drop in whole house inverter central unit now for $2859. The specs claim 100 percent heating capacity at -5 and 78 percent at -22.  It's made by Midea.  There is a video of an install and it heating a house at -24 temps in North Dakota.
> 
> Exceeds Conventional Heat Pump Performance Ranges
> Unparalleled Heating: 100% at -5°F outside temp*
> ...



So I bought and installed one of these.  I'm fairly impressed at the performance.
I've also ordered an Ecobee3 Lite thermostat for it (after returning a Nest BTW).
A few observations:

Operation is basic.  There's no capacity for "smarter" operations.  The thermostat can only call for single stage cooling or heating. or fan only.  Although the AH fan is a variable speed unit, there's no way to vary the speed and there's no info on whether the unit itself varies it based on conditions or mode.  The outside unit will vary fan and compressor speed but what affects it is unclear.
Both units run super quietly.  The AH runs without any vibration and noise at the return air grill nearby is very low.  Our prior unit was quite noisy what with metal ductwork and all. 
The pre-charged units and DIY line systems are killer.  What a great idea and easy to hook up.
The shipping packaging was pretty shoddy.  Double-check for damage before accepting.  Mine actually suffered a pretty good hit that was not apparent when looking at the packaging.  I had to do some repairs.
Looking at the AH control board I suspect the system may be capable of smarter operation than it is sold with (like setting the AH blower speed).
The documentation is lacking but both Mr. Cool and Ingrams (the vendor) have been fairly helpful.  I didn't need any help with the install but I did want to clarify some specs before committing to buy.


----------



## Highbeam (Aug 24, 2020)

semipro said:


> So I bought and installed one of these.  I'm fairly impressed at the performance.
> I've also ordered an Ecobee3 Lite thermostat for it (after returning a Nest BTW).
> A few observations:
> 
> ...



Great post. Great product. Just a matter of time before the inside heats water(boiler)!


----------



## hockeypuck (Aug 24, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Sams has a Mr Cool 12k kit for $699.  But their more efficient unit of the same size is $1299


I am no HVAC guru, but I would imagine the "old unit"'s shelf life for freon will be relatively short.  With that said, if you can install it yourself, that is a killer deal.   My guess is they are trying to blow out the older units before they can not feasibly sell them.  Also.. look at the heating numbers... I did not plan to use my unit for heat, but it is too easy not to.


----------



## Brian26 (Aug 25, 2020)

semipro said:


> So I bought and installed one of these.  I'm fairly impressed at the performance.
> I've also ordered an Ecobee3 Lite thermostat for it (after returning a Nest BTW).
> A few observations:
> 
> ...



It appears it operates just like a mini split. It using pressure and temperature readings to modulate the outdoor compressor/fan speed and indoor blower speed.

From the question and answer section on Ingrams website.

It monitors line temperatures and pressures and ambient temperatures to govern the compressor operation.

There was also a video of it operating in Minnesota in like -20s and they showed an electrical consumption graph. Looked exactly like my mini split.  You should connect a electrical monitor to it.

Here is one of my mini splits electrical monitoring graph for example.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Aug 25, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> Here is one of my mini splits electrical monitoring graph for example.
> 
> View attachment 262479


Can you guess what's happening there at the 0500 hrs mark?
Did you manually adjust the thermostat in the wrong way, and then quickly correct in the other direction?


----------



## Brian26 (Aug 25, 2020)

CaptSpiff said:


> Can you guess what's happening there at the 0500 hrs mark?
> Did you manually adjust the thermostat in the wrong way, and then quickly correct in the other direction?



It was in heating mode and that was a defrost cycle. The 4 way valve reverses and heats the outside coil to melt ice off it.

Here is a recent one of it in cooling mode. The 2 spikes are for oil control. At very low speed the compressor will surge briefly to push oil through the system. Notice its using less than 200 watts. At low speed it only draws around 150-180 watts which I have always found incredible as its blowing out a good volume of ice cold air.

It's a 12k Gree Sapphire with a 30.5 seer rating.


----------



## semipro (Aug 25, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> It appears it operates just like a mini split. It using pressure and temperature readings to modulate the outdoor compressor/fan speed and indoor blower speed.


I don't believe it varies the indoor blower speed based on conditions.  That's one of the smarter features I was saying was lacking. There is no communication link between inner and outer units to allow that.   The only signal wires going from the AH to outer unit are the power (red), common (bl), yellow (compressor), orange (B, reversing valve), and W1 (heat mode).  A green wire runs between the AH and thermostat to engage the fan.

I believe the mini-splits have additional communication wires/signals between inner and outer units.

I haven't yet figured out what the W1 wire actually does.


----------



## lsucet (Aug 26, 2020)

Mine is four head units and it uses too, four wires. It not only powers them, also they communicate through those four wires.
Indoor units ask depending room temperatures, humidity and other indoor conditions etc, and outdoor unit ramps up/down or goes off depending on demand asked and outdoor temperatures. Indoor units fans, change speed depending also on demand or settings. If fans are on auto mode or if the system has also an auto mode, the system picks fan speed. Also I can set the fan speed if I want.
They have 3 speed plus auto mode. There is fan Auto mode and system auto mode. On either, the fans are controlled by the system. That is how it works on my system.


----------



## Highbeam (Aug 27, 2020)

Central ducted replacement minisplits probably are designed with a fixed blower speed to maintain pressure and flow in a duct system to be sure that conditioned air is delivered to all rooms. If the blower slowed down like a wall unit then just the first room would get conditioned. 

The blower motor is an inverter/DC motor so it should be much more efficient even if it doesn't vary the speed and with the compressor doing all of the "variable" pumping it's a good compromise.


----------



## semipro (Aug 27, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Central ducted replacement minisplits probably are designed with a fixed blower speed to maintain pressure and flow in a duct system to be sure that conditioned air is delivered to all rooms. If the blower slowed down like a wall unit then just the first room would get conditioned.
> 
> The blower motor is an inverter/DC motor so it should be much more efficient even if it doesn't vary the speed and with the compressor doing all of the "variable" pumping it's a good compromise.


Agreed. 
I was hoping to at least have the option to use the AH at a low speed in a circulation mode to de-stratify air across 2 levels in our house.  
As it is now I'll have to use the thermostat's fan timer function to do that but at full blower speed.


----------



## Highbeam (Aug 27, 2020)

I'm just happy to see almost all of the technology of a minisplit slammed into a central unit. It is ridiculous that it took so long. Especially the full output down to 5 or whatever which means for most of us that you won't need to run a 60 amp circuit to a resistance heat backup coil. Even better is that a good company did this with the precharged line sets so you don't need to depend on the workmanship of whatever high school dropout HVAC tech that shows up. 

This is a huge leap forward in HVAC for north america.


----------



## begreen (Aug 27, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Central ducted replacement minisplits probably are designed with a fixed blower speed to maintain pressure and flow in a duct system to be sure that conditioned air is delivered to all rooms. If the blower slowed down like a wall unit then just the first room would get conditioned.
> 
> The blower motor is an inverter/DC motor so it should be much more efficient even if it doesn't vary the speed and with the compressor doing all of the "variable" pumping it's a good compromise.


Not if the ducting is well setup. Our system has a 2 speed compressor and a variable-speed, DC blower air handler. When the heating (or cooling) needs are low, it slows the blower and compressor down to just a whisper, but it is still delivering air throughout the system, just at lower cfms per register. It runs pretty frequently in this mode during shoulder weather once the house temp has equalized.

I don't know about all systems, but the Daikin ducted air handler is variable speed too.


----------



## hockeypuck (Aug 30, 2020)

So I just bought a second home up north from my parents.  It is a good insulated slab built home.   No central heating. When getting insurance, that could have been a sticking point except I have a good relationship with my current agent.   I am thinking long term here, when and if I go to sell.  Would like to install a "central heating system" but because its only going to be used 3 seasons, will probably go the heat pump/ac mini split.   Do you think this would pass for the main heating source up in central maine? It does have a wood stove, but those are frowned upon by most insurance companies.   I have not plans to live there year-round for at least 15 years. 

Edit.. 1200 sq foot, half wide open the other half two bedrooms.  Doors open, I see no problem with air flow to keep the rooms warm.  We winterize it every year.


----------



## semipro (Aug 30, 2020)

hockeypuck said:


> So I just bought a second home up north from my parents.  It is a good insulated slab built home.   No central heating. When getting insurance, that could have been a sticking point except I have a good relationship with my current agent.   I am thinking long term here, when and if I go to sell.  Would like to install a "central heating system" but because its only going to be used 3 seasons, will probably go the heat pump/ac mini split.   Do you think this would pass for the main heating source up in central maine? It does have a wood stove, but those are frowned upon by most insurance companies.   I have not plans to live there year-round for at least 15 years.
> 
> Edit.. 1200 sq foot, half wide open the other half two bedrooms.  Doors open, I see no problem with air flow to keep the rooms warm.  We winterize it every year.


Check out the YT video that @Brian26 mentioned earlier on.


----------



## maple1 (Aug 30, 2020)

I have a feeling that buying insurance on a questionable or doubtful insurable situation, because you are buddys with the agent, could have a bad outcome if you ever need it. No central heating is a red flag around here. (Meaning, a heat source that will keep heating with no need for regular human intervention). But also, quite sure a mini-split system would qualify. New homes are being built here with those as the only heat source. Check with your agent though, central Maine is likely a bit colder than where I am.


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## peakbagger (Aug 30, 2020)

Throw in some electric baseboard to keep the bank happy.

I have a friend that makes a living selling kerosene heaters to folks who believed the salesmen who told them they didnt need backup to a minisplit in cold weather.


----------



## hockeypuck (Aug 30, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> Throw in some electric baseboard to keep the bank happy.
> 
> I have a friend that makes a living selling kerosene heaters to folks who believed the salesmen who told them they didnt need backup to a minisplit in cold weather.


Thinking of doing this in the 2 bathrooms.  Thinking mini split alone in the Bangor region will not suffice.


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## hockeypuck (Aug 30, 2020)

maple1 said:


> I have a feeling that buying insurance on a questionable or doubtful insurable situation, because you are buddys with the agent, could have a bad outcome if you ever need it. No central heating is a red flag around here. (Meaning, a heat source that will keep heating with no need for regular human intervention). But also, quite sure a mini-split system would qualify. New homes are being built here with those as the only heat source. Check with your agent though, central Maine is likely a bit colder than where I am.


I appreciate the thought.   We will correct the central heating situation over the next 2 years.


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## peakbagger (Aug 30, 2020)

I agree fully.  Bangor Hydro started the mini split program as a supplemental heating program. The concept was to keep a few warm rooms in an older home for an elderly homeowner to stay warm during the day while the rest of the house was kept at a lower temperature with the primary heating system during cold weather. I am getting close to 10 years with a minisplit and after messing with it during  below 20 F conditions I really would not want to depend on it. Yes it will put out heat down to -12F but not much and the output drops down considerably.  Despite it being a 3 season place, its good to have reliable standby and not much can wrong with baseboard electric. If the house freezes due to lack of power insurance, will cover it.


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## fbelec (Aug 31, 2020)

i wired my cousins newly built home in central mass. he needed to get a heating system in the house to get the occupancy permit. the cheapest heating system to install was electric baseboard. so i did that and he put in a pellet stove to cost even cheaper.


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## maple1 (Aug 31, 2020)

x2 on the electric baseboards. To satisfy insurance or lender requirements. And for emergency 'keep it from freezing' stuff. Cheap easy install - but expensive to operate for any lengths of time.


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## fbelec (Sep 1, 2020)

nice thing about electric baseboard is if one is defective the others are still running


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## Highbeam (Sep 3, 2020)

And the resistance heat is 100% efficient! I have the wall heaters in my home, originally the baseboard strips but the previous owner "upgraded" to the blower models for more furniture options I think. They're actually a pretty good deal if you don't plan on using them much or at all. You get your automatic thermostatic heat for when you get thrown in jail unexpectedly and no need to buy propane, freon, oil, etc. Everybody has electricity.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Sep 4, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> ..... You get your automatic thermostatic heat for when you get thrown in jail unexpectedly .......


Is this a projection? Are we going to miss you for a bit?
Don't be running with those boys & girls in Portland!


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## Gearhead660 (Mar 25, 2021)

hockeypuck said:


> This is the exact unit.



How big of an area are you cooling/heating?  Looking to install one, but unsure what size to get.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 25, 2021)

semipro said:


> Check out the YT video that @Brian26 mentioned earlier on.



The Mr Cool Sams club sells advertise heat down to  5 Deg


----------



## begreen (Apr 25, 2021)

Only dealers in WA state are two hardware and feed stores. Not sure if they even sell the Universal.


----------



## Highbeam (Apr 26, 2021)

begreen said:


> Only dealers in WA state are two hardware and feed stores. Not sure if they even sell the Universal.



Dealers are unnecessary on the DIY units. It just gets shipped to your house. Brick and mortar middle men are becoming ever less valuable in modern culture.


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## EbS-P (Apr 26, 2021)

Highbeam said:


> Dealers are unnecessary on the DIY units. It just gets shipped to your house. Brick and mortar middle men are becoming ever less valuable in modern culture.


Reading the reviews on Costso support for replacement of defective items can be an issue.  I think this is where the Dealer price premium come into play.   To run a brick and mortar business you need good customer relationships to drop ship lots of inventory you need low prices and a point of sale.  I almost bought the 18k unit but i am going to wait and spend the cash when we need to replace the main heat pump.  
Evan


----------



## begreen (Apr 26, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> Reading the reviews on Costso support for replacement of defective items can be an issue.  I think this is where the Dealer price premium come into play.   To run a brick and mortar business you need good customer relationships to drop ship lots of inventory you need low prices and a point of sale.  I almost bought the 18k unit but i am going to wait and spend the cash when we need to replace the main heat pump.
> Evan


Same here. Our heat pump is 15 yrs old now, but it's had an easy life due to wood as our primary heating in winter and little need for AC.


----------



## gggvan (Jun 13, 2021)

is there a consensus on these or any diy mini split units?


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## semipro (Jun 13, 2021)

gggvan said:


> is there a consensus on these or any diy mini split units?


Mr. Cool seems to be the only vendor that is offering the precharged refrigerant lines that really make DIY easy.  This negates the need for AC gauges, a vacuum pump, know-how, etc.


----------



## EbS-P (Jun 13, 2021)

I wasn’t able to find them on the Costco website this week.   I read through quite a few reviews.  If they worked out of the box the consensus was they worked.  If you needed any support or parts the consensus was it was  difficult to get that/those.  I don’t have any real experience with them.  
Evan


----------



## Gearhead660 (Jun 15, 2021)

I purchased a Mr Cool mini split.  The install was easy and straight forward.  Their tech support is less that stellar...not impressed.  I am having an issue getting mine to run correctly and have yet to hear from them.  No one answers calls or emails.


----------



## semipro (Jun 15, 2021)

Gearhead660 said:


> I purchased a Mr Cool mini split.  The install was easy and straight forward.  Their tech support is less that stellar...not impressed.  I am having an issue getting mine to run correctly and have yet to hear from them.  No one answers calls or emails.


I bought my Mr. Cool Universal units from Ingram's Water and Air and have had decent support. I tried Mr. Cool support also and was unimpressed.


----------



## Brian26 (Jun 16, 2021)

Gearhead660 said:


> I purchased a Mr Cool mini split.  The install was easy and straight forward.  Their tech support is less that stellar...not impressed.  I am having an issue getting mine to run correctly and have yet to hear from them.  No one answers calls or emails.



What kind of issue are you having with running it correctly?


----------



## Gearhead660 (Jun 16, 2021)

Brian26 said:


> What kind of issue are you having with running it correctly?


There seems to be a blockage somewhere, I think in the indoor unit.  Refrigerant isn't able to make a complete loop.  In heat mode the pressure will climb to 700 psi and fault out the compressor, in cool the pressure will drop to 0 psi.


----------



## hockeypuck (Jun 16, 2021)

I installed a 24k btu (Mr. Cool)  unit two years ago.  Ran like a top for two years. In April the unit died while using it for heat.  I emailed tech support and we went back and forth a few times and determined the inside unit's board was dead.  They no longer made that unit and board, so they sent me a brand new gen3 unit.  You really could not ask for better customer service I was floored.   It was a pain to find a local guy come and evacuate the refrigerant, but I installed it and has been running great for over a month now.  I hope this one lasts longer.


----------



## hockeypuck (Jun 16, 2021)

Gearhead660 said:


> I purchased a Mr Cool mini split.  The install was easy and straight forward.  Their tech support is less that stellar...not impressed.  I am having an issue getting mine to run correctly and have yet to hear from them.  No one answers calls or emails.


Try using the customer service form.  Fill it out and they will email you back.


----------



## hockeypuck (Jun 16, 2021)

Gearhead660 said:


> There seems to be a blockage somewhere, I think in the indoor unit.  Refrigerant isn't able to make a complete loop.  In heat mode the pressure will climb to 700 psi and fault out the compressor, in cool the pressure will drop to 0 psi.


Was it operating correctly at some point?  I would double check the valves at the outside unit and make sure they are fully open.  The allen screw should be backed out all the way.


----------



## Gearhead660 (Jun 17, 2021)

hockeypuck said:


> Try using the customer service form.  Fill it out and they will email you back.


did that with no response.


----------



## Gearhead660 (Jun 17, 2021)

hockeypuck said:


> Was it operating correctly at some point?  I would double check the valves at the outside unit and make sure they are fully open.  The allen screw should be backed out all the way.


has not worked correctly at all.  just installed this spring.  allens are all the way out.


----------



## fbelec (Jun 18, 2021)

don't know if i missed this but how many feet is the line set?


----------



## festerw (Jun 18, 2021)

fbelec said:


> don't know if i missed this but how many feet is the line set?



When I've looked it seems to be either 16 or 25 feet depending on the package. IWAE looks to have extension sets as well.


----------



## Gearhead660 (Jun 18, 2021)

fbelec said:


> don't know if i missed this but how many feet is the line set?


25 ft


----------



## fbelec (Jun 19, 2021)

25 feet seems ok. but just for giggles did the pressures seem ok? or are there bubbles in view hole?


----------



## Gearhead660 (Jun 21, 2021)

fbelec said:


> 25 feet seems ok. but just for giggles did the pressures seem ok? or are there bubbles in view hole?


Bubbles in view hole??


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## fbelec (Jun 22, 2021)

needs freon and a leak test


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## fbelec (Jun 22, 2021)

some systems are like cars you can put in a view hole and if there is bubbles it needs to be charged


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## semipro (Jun 22, 2021)

Gearhead660 said:


> There seems to be a blockage somewhere, I think in the indoor unit.  Refrigerant isn't able to make a complete loop.  In heat mode the pressure will climb to 700 psi and fault out the compressor, in cool the pressure will drop to 0 psi.


It does sound like a blockage of some type for the pressure range to be that extreme. 
If the isolation valves at both units are fully open then it must be a problem with either one of the units or the lineset.  
I would suggest that you look for a location with a big temp differential across it but that really only is helpful if you have a restriction.  Your pressures, to me, indicate a total blockage as you say.


----------



## semipro (Jun 22, 2021)

fbelec said:


> some systems are like cars you can put in a view hole and if there is bubbles it needs to be charged


Most call them "sight glasses".  
I added one to my latest Mr. Cool Universal system install.


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## fbelec (Jun 23, 2021)

semipro said:


> Most call them "sight glasses".
> I added one to my latest Mr. Cool Universal system install.


well worth the money


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## Gearhead660 (Jul 30, 2021)

So after no techs replied from email or voicemail, I tried customer service.  They took my info and tech actually called back.  After explaining issue, tech had me loosen and tighten lineset.  That didn't work.  Called again and tech sent a whole new outside unit.  Swapped out unit and, tada! Got heat and cool!  Took about 3 months to work through it but they came through.  Now to see how well it works.


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## EbS-P (Jul 31, 2021)

Gearhead660 said:


> So after no techs replied from email or voicemail, I tried customer service.  They took my info and tech actually called back.  After explaining issue, tech had me loosen and tighten lineset.  That didn't work.  Called again and tech sent a whole new outside unit.  Swapped out unit and, tada! Got heat and cool!  Took about 3 months to work through it but they came through.  Now to see how well it works.


Good to hear.  I’m going to get either the 12k or 18k DIY unit in the next couple weeks.


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