# Envi Blocks will void my stove warranty!



## isipwater (Jul 31, 2013)

Hi, 

My local stove shop and reps from both Travis Industries (Lopi, Avalon) and Pacific Energy have all told me that using any compressed wood bricks/logs will void my new stove warranty.

My local stove shop installer told me that burning one compressed log/block is ok but anymore than that will over fire the stove.  He said that compressed logs burn fine in fireplaces and inserts but not wood stoves.

I am about to get a Lopi Endeavor installed (my first wood stove) and am having trouble getting seasoned wood.  I thought I fixed the problem when I ordered two pallets of Envi blocks.  Now I am thinking of canceling the order as not to void the 7 year Lopi warranty.

There are many different types/quality of compressed wood products.  Surely some of them must burn appropriately in a Lopi or PE stoves. Should I cancel my Envi block order?  I have until tomorrow morning to cancel the order!!


----------



## USMC80 (Jul 31, 2013)

you can use the Envi blocks to assist less seasoned wood that you have.  I would never burn just envy blocks as you will probably overfire


----------



## jeff_t (Jul 31, 2013)

If you don't tell, will anyone know? Don't overfire it. Those blocks are really dry, and can offgas really quickly. One or two in a load can supplement some not so dry wood, but I surely wouldn't burn a full load.


----------



## isipwater (Jul 31, 2013)

jeff_t said:


> If you don't tell, will anyone know? Don't overfire it. Those blocks are really dry, and can offgas really quickly. One or two in a load can supplement some not so dry wood, but I surely wouldn't burn a full load.


Yes, I currently have oak that is 37% moisture.  I was planning on mixing the Envi blocks with that.


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

Burned correctly I found overfiring was not an issue with BioBricks. I burned up to 13 at a time per instructions in a Castine with no problem. They need to be loaded and packed correctly. However, how many people read directions these days is a concern. I also burned and liked the highly compressed logs from Northern Idaho Energy Logs and from Prest-Logs from Homefire. If you respect the product and read the instructions, they are a nice heating fuel. I would recommend avoiding cheap imitations (low compressed fuel).

https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/biobricks/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/Northern_Idaho_Energy_Logs/
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/home-fire-prest-logs/


----------



## isipwater (Jul 31, 2013)

Yes, I would do a mix, but these stove companies should void warranties for over firing not because I use Envi blocks!  Can't over firing also happen with cord wood as well?


----------



## isipwater (Jul 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> Burned correctly I found overfiring is not an issue with BioBricks. I burned up to 13 at a time per instructions in a Castine with no problem. However, how many people read directions these days is a concern. I also burned and liked the highly compressed logs from Northern Idaho Energy Logs and from Prest-Logs from Homefire. If you respect the product and read the instructions, they are a nice heating fuel. I would recommend avoiding cheap imitations (low compressed fuel)
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/biobricks/
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/Northern_Idaho_Energy_Logs/
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/home-fire-prest-logs/


What is a castine?


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

isipwater said:


> Yes, I currently have oak that is 37% moisture. I was planning on mixing the Envi blocks with that.


 
Have you resplit the oak? That is very wet wood still and shouldn't be burned this year. Maybe order some ash, beech or maple for this year and save the oak?



isipwater said:


> Can't over firing also happen with cord wood as well?


 
Yes it can. As a new burner I would err on the side of caution and get some dry wood if possible.


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

isipwater said:


> What is a castine?


Jotul F400


----------



## isipwater (Jul 31, 2013)

Were you mixing the bricks with cord wood? This is in a stove right?  Why would my experienced stove installer say two bricks will over fire and dirty the chimney?


----------



## isipwater (Jul 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> Have you resplit the oak? That is very wet wood still and shouldn't be burned this year. Maybe order some ash, beech or maple for this year and save the oak?



 I am waiting for my back ordered Fiskar wood spliter from amazon, due to arrive this week and then I will get to work.  It is very hard for me to get truly seasoned hardwood at a decent price.  Everyone has wet wood to sell me though.


----------



## maple1 (Jul 31, 2013)

isipwater said:


> Were you mixing the bricks with cord wood? This is in a stove right? Why would my experienced stove installer say two bricks will over fire and dirty the chimney?


 
Over-fires dirty chimneys?

That is sounding backwards to me.


----------



## joescho (Jul 31, 2013)

jeff_t said:


> If you don't tell, will anyone know? Don't overfire it. Those blocks are really dry, and can offgas really quickly. One or two in a load can supplement some not so dry wood, but I surely wouldn't burn a full load.


 
I bought 2 bags one year for my parents with a traditional fireplace.  They do get pretty hot.


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

isipwater said:


> I am waiting for my back ordered Fiskar wood spliter from amazon, due to arrive this week and then I will get to work. It is very hard for me to get truly seasoned hardwood at a decent price. Everyone has wet wood to sell me though.


Screw trying to get a decent price this season. Get decent dry wood from a reputable wood company and you will have a much better burning experience.


----------



## Delta-T (Jul 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> Burned correctly I found overfiring was not an issue with BioBricks. I burned up to 13 at a time per instructions in a Castine with no problem. They need to be loaded and packed correctly. However, how many people read directions these days is a concern.


 
agreed, I have run similar product in a Harman Oakleaf for a few years now..no problems. Though I've never put in 13....holy hottness...and 47 hours of burntime.


----------



## Jags (Jul 31, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Over-fires dirty chimneys?
> 
> That is sounding backwards to me.


 
It sounds quite contrary to normal thought but can be true if all the stars align properly.  If the rate of off gassing exceeds the ability for the tubes or cat to consume them, they have no where else to go but up the stack.


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

Delta-T said:


> agreed, I have run similar product in a Harman Oakleaf for a few years now..no problems. Though I've never put in 13....holy hottness...and 47 hours of burntime.


 
The BioBricks don't all burn at once when packed in with no air gaps. If you read the wiki article you will see the temps the stove burned at were reasonable and far from overfiring at 650F max. The fire only lasted about 6 hrs.
http://originalbiobricks.com/howtoburn

I'm not sure how Envi blocks would burn in the same test. Their instructions are a bit less specific.


----------



## relay (Jul 31, 2013)

FYI, I am relativly new to the wood stove arena but I am a fast learner and deep researcher 

IMHO, if you learn how to load and use the compressed wood products, the danger of overfiring is the same as with cord wood.
Load the stove to reduce the exposed surface of the compressed products and you have an easily duplicatable burn every time, unlike with cord wood.
With cord wood, sometimes in the mornings I still have a 400 degree stove with 20% material left and other mornings, a cool stove. 
That's the main reason I like the compressed products. 
Inside of 1 month I learned EXACLY how many bricks to put in the stove based on the outside temperature, inside temperature and desired heat.

With the Bio Bricks, I would load anywhere between 12 - 18 for night loads and 6 - 12 for day loads.  A 350 - 400 degree stove is perfect as you really don't need to wait for the BioBricks to get going.  The existing coals and temps will take care of that for you.  The bigger issue is getting the blocks in there tightly packed together which is hard to do mixing with wood coals.  Much easier if exclusivly compressed products.
With a colder stove comes the danger.  You REALLY have to let the compressed products get good and going before you damper down or you will kill the burn.  hence the tendency to go off to other things and come back 45 minutes later to a 700+ degree stove. 

I don't have access to much free wood and scrounging in my area is tough, especially since I have small pickup that can't handle much.  Compressed wood products and firewood are close to the same prices.
IMHO, I see nothing but benefits to the compressed products.  Very little mess, no bugs, 1/3 space requirements, no mess in the driveway, no splitter to buy (although I did buy one as I expected to harvest from my camp in Maine but can't do that now with the "no transport across state line regulations to curtail the bugs.), no crappy loads of firewood that were sold as dry only to be visably rotten as you pull in your driveway!

For me, the compressed products are so consistant that if i have to buy something, it will always be compressed product if the prices are close.

Hope this helps....


----------



## relay (Jul 31, 2013)

BTW, I believe a manufacturer could solve most of the downfalls and potential of overfire with compressed wood products by making a larger product that would not require tight stacking to reduce to exposed surface area.
I believe a 20lb block would be about the perfect size.  As I understand it though, a machine capable of compressing something that large would be prohibitavly expensive and probably will not happen.  At least, that was the comments I received when I inquired about this previously.


----------



## Delta-T (Jul 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> The BioBricks don't all burn at once when packed in with no air gaps. If you read the wiki article you will see the temps the stove burned at were reasonable and far from overfiring at 650F max. The fire only lasted about 6 hrs.
> http://originalbiobricks.com/howtoburn
> 
> I'm not sure how Envi blocks would burn in the same test. Their instructions are a bit less specific.


 
I use the Orford compressed log..is 2.2lb (1kg) per log ~18k btu/log. I put in as many as five, tightly packed, and gotten 6+ hrs in the leaf, which is smallish in size. I haven't watched the temps too closely, but def not near overfire. granted, it shares heating duties with some of the pellet stoves, so we don't "need" it to do a lot of work. I will do some better experiments this coming season. (the packaging from Orford say no more than 3 logs at a time, we stuck with that for a while and worked up to the 5...cuz, you know, stove shop guys+fire=trouble).


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

Looks like the Orford Logs are actually bricks. Is that right?


----------



## Delta-T (Jul 31, 2013)

they're 2.5"hx2.5"dx11"long...is somewhere between a log and a brick I guess. they're squared off and stack nicely.


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

Not a blog or a lick, it's a "Brog"!


----------



## Grisu (Jul 31, 2013)

Get a stove or IR thermometer; that is the only way to know whether you are overfiring the stove or (as in my case) burn efficiently.


----------



## Heatsource (Jul 31, 2013)

Alot of my customers use energy logs, haven't noticed particular overfiring symptoms while doing annual cleanings/ and the chimneys seem to stay cleaner than with cordwood too


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

Burned properly they burn a lot cleaner than cord wood. If I lived in an urban area this is all I would burn.


----------



## The Maine Stove Guy (Jul 31, 2013)

I would agree with Dave...our customers that use them haven't had problems. Just keep in mind they do burn hotter as they don't have the water content that cut wood generally has. We even suggest them to mix in with the cord wood if someone has a batch of wood that is too green.


----------



## Jags (Jul 31, 2013)

Welcome to the forum, MSG (we had a past member with the same ).  If you are an industry guy, you may want to consider filling out a sig line.  Nice to know what professional expertise you bring to the party.  Or you may decide to stay semi anonymous, but be aware, I have already sent your avatar to the NSA.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jul 31, 2013)

I burned eight packages of Eco Bricks last season and six bricks tight in the middle didn't do any over firing.


----------



## lumbering on (Jul 31, 2013)

I added two bricks per load in with my "semi-seasoned" wood last year.  Had thermometer on the whole time. No issues with too much heat.


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm actually a little more anxious when I burn eucalyptus due to the high oil content of the wood.


----------



## isipwater (Jul 31, 2013)

Well, with great reluctance, cancelled my order of Envi blocks.  I am sure it would have probably been fine to burn them in my stove, however, I am spending a lot of money, and I don't want any hassles with warranty issues, should an issue arise.

I do think this is a shame as a new person to wood burning. How can the stove companies be irrational about compressed wood bricks when there is so much positive feedback from people who burn with them.  It is my hope that the stove industry and begin to tackle this issue in a way that reflects reality.

Thanks to all for your feedback about the bricks.  Since I have never burned wood for heat before, I will wait a season or two before I feel more confident to burn with the bricks.  For now, I am back on the hunt for seasoned cord wood.


----------



## begreen (Jul 31, 2013)

Good plan. The next load of wood you get, don't accept it until you've checked some of the splits for moisture content on a freshly split face of wood. If the MC is high, reject the load.


----------



## STOVEGUY11 (Aug 1, 2013)

IMHO, they are called wood stoves, and tested as so. They are not called Bio-Brick Stoves! I know some manufactures say they void warranty. Others say they do not recommend them. Others say they are ok if you burn the specific brand that stove manufacture is tested for.


----------



## eclecticcottage (Aug 1, 2013)

Huh.  We burned ecobricks in our stove no problem-we even had the guy from the stove shop out to do a cleaning the first year and he saw them and didn't tell us we shouldn't be using them!  We couldn't ahve made it through our first season without them, we just didn't have dry enough wood (first year with the house...but also, it's our only real heat source).

Now, you can't just throw them in there, they are meant to be stacked tighter.  I imagine if you let enough air get around several of them, there would be a good chance of an overfire.

The only time we overfired (very slight red glow by the stovetop thermometer that DH couldn't even see, but definately a "paint curing" smell) we were using driftwood kindling and it was just too much of it in there.


----------



## Trilifter7 (Aug 1, 2013)

I burned a pack of the bio bricks that menards sells last year. I used 2 or 3 blocks mixed in with cut pieces of oak pallet to break in my new stove. I def didn't place them right bc I had that thing at 800F a few times. It's good stuff but you do have to pay attention to how you load it or it will take off!


----------



## begreen (Aug 1, 2013)

The Isle Royale is a very willing stove. As you have found out, mixing with pallet wood or any very dry fuel is going to get very lively very quickly. I would stick to cord wood if mixing.


----------



## ridemgis (Aug 1, 2013)

STOVEGUY11 said:


> IMHO, they are called wood stoves, and tested as so. They are not called Bio-Brick Stoves!.



Yes, and bio/envi bricks are 100% wood.  Albeit, very dry wood.  I would encourage Isipwater (the OP) to try both products before committing to a full pallet or more.  I mixed bio-bricks with some not so dry wood toward the end of last season (my first) with no troubles at all.  Start small, watch how they burn, then work your way up as needed.


----------



## Fiziksgeek (Aug 2, 2013)

I burned nearly 2 pallets of the full size evni blocks in my Jotul insert last year, and my parents burned 1 pallet of envi-8 and 2 pallets of the full size...no issues.

In a single fire I would use 3-4 envi blocks for a shorter burn on a mild day and 6-8 for a longer burn on a colder day.


----------



## Rich L (Aug 3, 2013)

I've used envi and bio blocks to fill the gaps between splits in my LOPI Liberty.At one time  I use two envi blocks and four biobricks with no problem on a constant basis.


----------



## Rich L (Aug 3, 2013)

isipwater said:


> Hi,
> 
> My local stove shop and reps from both Travis Industries (Lopi, Avalon) and Pacific Energy have all told me that using any compressed wood bricks/logs will void my new stove warranty.
> 
> ...


 
Look there is plenty of seasoned wood to be found about now in Concord and Wilmington,Ma.Google firewood in those two towns and talk to the sellers.Try Marshall farms.He has about a 100 cords of seasoned firewood.He says he'll sell it all so don't wait.The number is 603-738-9429.He's in Concord Ma.


----------



## blades (Aug 5, 2013)

State side we have a real problem between compressed wood logs/blocks and the stove mfgs. Which makes for a very poor investment situation from a business standpoint for domestic consumption until the stove mfgs get on board. Europe is not so backward by necessity due to the lack of raw material.


----------



## Grisu (Aug 5, 2013)

blades said:


> State side we have a real problem between compressed wood logs/blocks and the stove mfgs. Which makes for a very poor investment situation from a business standpoint for domestic consumption until the stove mfgs get on board. Europe is not so backward by necessity due to the lack of raw material.


 
Yep, to me that distinction between Envi-blocks and wood does not make any sense. Does it also void the warranty if someone stuffs his stoves with 2x4s (made of pine!)? Or well-dried kiln wood? What happens with members that live in Texas or Arizona and get their wood down to 8% moisture content? If a company wants to exclude warranty claims because of overfiring they should include a stove thermometer with an exact spot to put it and a temperature that should not be exceeded. Imagine car manufacturers would deliver their cars without a speedometer. I don't see the difference here.


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

Rich L said:


> Look there is plenty of seasoned wood to be found about now in Concord and Wilmington,Ma.Google firewood in those two towns and talk to the sellers.Try Marshall farms.He has about a 100 cords of seasoned firewood.He says he'll sell it all so don't wait.The number is 603-738-9429.He's in Concord Ma.


 
Thanks for the tip. I just called and he won't deliver to me because I am 60 miles away.  I am down far in southeastern Mass.  Let me know if you can think of any good suppliers that are closer.


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Yep, to me that distinction between Envi-blocks and wood does not make any sense. Does it also void the warranty if someone stuffs his stoves with 2x4s (made of pine!)? Or well-dried kiln wood? What happens with members that live in Texas or Arizona and get their wood down to 8% moisture content? If a company wants to exclude warranty claims because of overfiring they should include a stove thermometer with an exact spot to put it and a temperature that should not be exceeded. Imagine car manufacturers would deliver their cars without a speedometer. I don't see the difference here.


 
Agreed, US stove manufacturers are behind. Over-firing is over-firing, which can happen with either cord wood or compressed wood blocks.  Yes, there needs to be education about how to properly heat with compressed wood blocks, but the US stove manufactures could be taking a leadership role in this instead of ignoring the compressed wood fuel market.


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 5, 2013)

I fully agree with isipwater in that over firing is over firing.  While Kuma does not specifically mention compressed wood, there is a warranty exclusion for improper fuel (coal, etc.) and over firing in general.  I have personally burned compressed logs in my own Kuma at home, up to 9 North Idaho Energy Logs at one time.  I can also glow the top of my stove every time I use it with cord wood if I don't tend it properly.

While US manufacturers could be more accepting of compressed wood, and probably will be in the near future, there are many many other ways to overheat your stove.  In defense of manufacturers, there has to be some responsibility on the user to understand the basic limits of the product.  Manufacturers have just found it easier to give the black and white, rather than detail the grey.  I appreciate the analogy given by Grisu with the car and speedometer but even that is not that black and white.  With no understanding of the limits of 1st gear, I could damage the car without even reaching half of it's speedometer limit.

To relate to stoves, how can we relay all of the conditions in which a stove is being over fired?  I frequently heat my own stove top to 800 degrees before shutting the air control down.  It usually takes 10-20 minutes to reach that after re-fueling, depending on the coal bed.  So, if 800 degrees is OK, is 825 over fired, and is the stove warranty void if it reaches 825 for only a few minutes?  If 825 is the limit and 800 is safe, how long is 800 safe for?  What becomes the safe temperature for 100% duty where you feed the stove like it's running a steam engine?

With the Kuma warranty not specifically excluding compressed logs, one could argue that a stove damaged by the same is our own fault because we didn't say *not* to use them. 

I recently sent, under warranty and for the second time, a full set of baffle components to a customer for a 3 year old stove.  This time, I simply told them that they are over firing their stove and the components would no longer be warrantied.  I don't know if they are using compressed wood, or have too much draft, or are using too small of a stove.  In the end, I agree that compressed wood should be allowed in stoves.  But "what do you mean; I over fired it" shouldn't let the user off the hook either.

BTW, 9 energy logs can get a stove pretty toasty.

Jason


----------



## Jags (Aug 5, 2013)

Jason - I agree with everything you said. That being said, why is there not a clear cut max temp listed in most operators manuals (this is not in any way directed at Kuma). This is one of the most frequent operational questions we answer on hearthdotcom. Trying to guess the color of the glow is a horrible way to answer a question (and is already at overfire temps as far as I am concerned). In an industry where it is easier to just list black and white answers - why is there no answer to an oft asked question?

But to digress - yes, an overfire is an overfire - it really doesn't matter how it got there.

(I am not really trying to put you on the spot, just hoping that someone in the industry can give a non-political answer to this question).


----------



## Grisu (Aug 5, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> I fully agree with isipwater in that over firing is over firing. While Kuma does not specifically mention compressed wood, there is a warranty exclusion for improper fuel (coal, etc.) and over firing in general. I have personally burned compressed logs in my own Kuma at home, up to 9 North Idaho Energy Logs at one time. I can also glow the top of my stove every time I use it with cord wood if I don't tend it properly.
> 
> While US manufacturers could be more accepting of compressed wood, and probably will be in the near future, there are many many other ways to overheat your stove. In defense of manufacturers, there has to be some responsibility on the user to understand the basic limits of the product. Manufacturers have just found it easier to give the black and white, rather than detail the grey. I appreciate the analogy given by Grisu with the car and speedometer but even that is not that black and white. With no understanding of the limits of 1st gear, I could damage the car without even reaching half of it's speedometer limit.
> 
> To relate to stoves, how can we relay all of the conditions in which a stove is being over fired? I frequently heat my own stove top to 800 degrees before shutting the air control down. It usually takes 10-20 minutes to reach that after re-fueling, depending on the coal bed. So, if 800 degrees is OK, is 825 over fired, and is the stove warranty void if it reaches 825 for only a few minutes? If 825 is the limit and 800 is safe, how long is 800 safe for? What becomes the safe temperature for 100% duty where you feed the stove like it's running a steam engine?


 
That is pretty high and I would not run my stove that hot regularly. Cudos to Kuma for building such solid stoves. However, you are asking the same questions that any user has: What is a safe operating temp? How high can I go without damaging the stove? When do I need to interfere with the burning process? Stove manufacturer's simply place that burden on the consumer who have to come to places like here to get an idea how their stove is operated properly.  



> With the Kuma warranty not specifically excluding compressed logs, one could argue that a stove damaged by the same is our own fault because we didn't say *not* to use them.


 
I don't think that is what I said. If the manufacturer stated not to heat the stove above 900 F that is it. How that temp has been reached is irrelevant in that case. Why not simply include a $10 stove thermometer in a $2000 purchase (in most cases) with detailed instructions in the manual how to use it to get an efficient burn that is in the safe range? I don't think such a thermometer exists yet but you could easily add a second needle that only moves forward and shows the highest temp reached so far. If it goes in the dark red the stove should be checked by a licensed installer to make sure it is still sound. That is what I would call customer service. Not only sell people a stove but also show them how get the most out of it while operating it safely.


----------



## begreen (Aug 5, 2013)

> up to 9 North Idaho Energy Logs at one time


 
 Kids, don't try this at home. Those NIELs pack a wallop. 

Jason, I'm sure this was in the name of science and quality control, right?


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 5, 2013)

Jags said:


> Jason - I agree with everything you said. That being said, why is there not a clear cut max temp listed in most operators manuals (this is not in any way directed at Kuma). This is one of the most frequent operational questions we answer on hearthdotcom. Trying to guess the color of the glow is a horrible way to answer a question (and is already at overfire temps as far as I am concerned). In an industry where it is easier to just list black and white answers - why is there no answer to an oft asked question?
> 
> But to digress - yes, an overfire is an overfire - it really doesn't matter how it got there.
> 
> (I am not really trying to put you on the spot, just hoping that someone in the industry can give a non-political answer to this question).


 
Good question.  About 90 percent of our customer service calls go a bit like this:

Customer: My stove's not working!
Kuma: You're not burning it hot enough.

I'm going to take a look at this and recommend an adjustment to the stove manuals.  Often times we are too busy to fix things that are working fine.  In other words, it won't get changed til someone says "why don't you all add temp guidelines to your manuals?"

As indicated above, max temp may not actually be black and white.  Even if it is a bit more grey, it's a dang important piece of info that admittedly, we haven't done a very good job of addressing.  Perhaps something like this (I'm making it up as I go here):

*CAUTION:*
*Your Kuma Stove is safe to a maximum surface temperature of 850* (see diagram for temp gauge location).  Sustaining temperatures of more than 750* is over firing and will reduce the lifespan of your stove.  Optimum operating range is between 500* and 700*.*


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 5, 2013)

begreen said:


> Kids, don't try this at home. Those NIELs pack a wallop.
> 
> Jason, I'm sure this was in the name of science and quality control, right?


 

More like Christmas over at the in-laws and wanted the stove to burn for 30 hours (get a Blaze King right)


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 5, 2013)

Grisu said:


> That is pretty high and I would not run my stove that hot regularly. Cudos to Kuma for building such solid stoves. However, you are asking the same questions that any user has: What is a safe operating temp? How high can I go without damaging the stove? When do I need to interfere with the burning process? Stove manufacturer's simply place that burden on the consumer who have to come to places like here to get an idea how their stove is operated properly.
> 
> I don't think that is what I said. If the manufacturer stated not to heat the stove above 900 F that is it. How that temp has been reached is irrelevant in that case. Why not simply include a $10 stove thermometer in a $2000 purchase (in most cases) with detailed instructions in the manual how to use it to get an efficient burn that is in the safe range? I don't think such a thermometer exists yet but you could easily add a second needle that only moves forward and shows the highest temp reached so far. If it goes in the dark red the stove should be checked by a licensed installer to make sure it is still sound. That is what I would call customer service. Not only sell people a stove but also show them how get the most out of it while operating it safely.


 
800* is kinda the max target before completely shutting the air off.  I certainly do not run there for any length of time.  I wasn't poking at you with any of my comments, sorry if that was perceived.  Also, the temp gauge you described is brilliant, showing the max reached temp.  If it could be invented, could it be tamper proof?  I am suggesting some changes to our manuals as well as researching the availability of a custom temp gauge to give model specific readings, to be included with each stove.


----------



## begreen (Aug 5, 2013)

The early VC stoves came with a quality thermometer. I still have ours and it is still accurate after many years of service.


----------



## Grisu (Aug 5, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> 800* is kinda the max target before completely shutting the air off. I certainly do not run there for any length of time. I wasn't poking at you with any of my comments, sorry if that was perceived. Also, the temp gauge you described is brilliant, showing the max reached temp. If it could be invented, could it be tamper proof? I am suggesting some changes to our manuals as well as researching the availability of a custom temp gauge to give model specific readings, to be included with each stove.


 
I actually think I have seen that before; may have been a barometer. But the principle should be really easy: Just have a second, "high-temp" needle on top of the actual temp needle. The upper one has a little pin underneath on one side that touches the lower needle. When the temp rises the lower needle pushes the high-temp needle forward  but since there is no fixed connection between the two the high-temp needle will stop once the lower needle goes backward. I will leave it to the actual designer to make that tamper-proof. 

If you are up for suggestions, two things that I found when looking at the Kuma Sequioa insert recently. First, I could not find the necessary depth of the fireplace to put it in. On the website it said something of 23" but it was not clear to me if that was total depth or how much the fireplace needs. I could not even find that info in the manual (although I admit I may not have looked hard enough). Second, I know it's common practice but I am sure most consumers would prefer to have dedicated manual for their product and not for the stove and the insert together. Should not be too difficult to pull those apart.


----------



## begreen (Aug 5, 2013)

TruTemp makes a thermometer like this I think. It's a little pricey, but a quality instrument.


----------



## Grisu (Aug 5, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> As indicated above, max temp may not actually be black and white. Even if it is a bit more grey, it's a dang important piece of info that admittedly, we haven't done a very good job of addressing. Perhaps something like this (I'm making it up as I go here):
> 
> *CAUTION:*
> *Your Kuma Stove is safe to a maximum surface temperature of 850* (see diagram for temp gauge location). Sustaining temperatures of more than 750* is over firing and will reduce the lifespan of your stove. Optimum operating range is between 500* and 700*.*


 
That is approximately what I mean. A temperature guideline for the inexperienced customer to know when they are burning efficient and when they are overfiring the stove. Maybe you can add some additional help. E. g. When temp reaches 850 F although the primary air is closed all the way do .... (close air hole, open door, whatever you think its best). In addition, "if that happens frequently please check door gaskets for leaks etc." There is so much knowledge here in the forum that is rarely found in the stove manuals.


----------



## clemsonfor (Aug 5, 2013)

"Burn fine in inserts but not wood stoves"???? That makes no sense. I am running my stove as an insert. But if I take the trim kit off and pit legs on it,  its a free standing stove. There are several makers like that. Im pretty sure bucks are this was too. So how is this the case? Can't say I would stuff the stove every square inch full with them??   Probably like the guys at the fire station who burn 35 year old stoves and told me I would burn my house down if I loaded my stove full?


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

I went with my moisture meter and tested "seasoned" firewood someone was selling on craigslist - 36%
Then I wen to two more firewood businesses with my MM, again, both in the mid 30's%.
Called another seller and was told, "we do cook to order" -we split the wood into a truck when you order and bring it to you. 

I have now contacted close to 20 firewood sellers and none have wood that was slip prior to spring of 2013. Of these, their wood simply sits in large piles not getting sun and wind. 

I don't think I will be burning this much this season.


----------



## begreen (Aug 5, 2013)

I'm not surprised. If you buy wood now it should be for next year. See if there are any business in your area selling kiln dried wood.


----------



## BrotherBart (Aug 5, 2013)

Fact of life. Firewood sellers can't afford the space to keep wood around for two or three years. And if they did most of the fireplace burners they sell to wouldn't want stuff that looks old and grey and possibly has some mushrooms on it.


----------



## clemsonfor (Aug 5, 2013)

Plus it would burn to fast if it was dried out


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

begreen said:


> I'm not surprised. If you buy wood now it should be for next year. See if there are any business in your area selling kiln dried wood.


 

What do you think of this deal that I have found on Craigslist?

Pallet of hardwood firewood. Cuts offs of hard maple oak hickory ash birch and beech. This is kiln dried material used to make furniture and flooring. $100 a pallet 5'x5'x5'. Multiple pallets available. This wood burns hot and is great for wood stoves or outdoor pits. Burns very clean.  The wood hasn't been treated with anything. It is clean dry hardwood. Oak maple birch hickory. We make stair treads and flooring. It is all cut offs from the raw wood. It is fine for indoor and outdoor burning. The delivery fee is $50.








So, what do you think?  5x5x5 = 125 cubic feet (almost a cord) for $100 plus delivery.  This sounds like a wonderful price for kiln dried hardwood, what do you think?


----------



## begreen (Aug 5, 2013)

The images are not coming through. Might be ok, can you post the craigslist link?


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

begreen said:


> The images are not coming through. Might be ok, can you post the craigslist link?


 
http://southcoast.craigslist.org/mat/3960190260.html


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 5, 2013)

Can't buy wood in Idaho for that price and it wouldn't be a hard wood either.  If it's dry and really 125 ft.3 it's a deal if you ask me.


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> Can't buy wood in Idaho for that price and it wouldn't be a hard wood either. If it's dry and really 125 ft.3 it's a deal if you ask me.


 
Thanks, seems like a very nice deal, considering I have no seasoned wood as a first time wood stove burner.

I might have to cut the 5 foot long peices 3-4 times to get them 18" or under but it sounds like it is worth the trouble for $100/pallet.  Do you think all the cutting will be worth the trouble?


----------



## Grisu (Aug 5, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> Can't buy wood in Idaho for that price and it wouldn't be a hard wood either. If it's dry and really 125 ft.3 it's a deal if you ask me.


 
That's a steal in my book. $100 for pretty much a cord of kiln-dried hardwood? I pay $200 for a cord of green wood. Since there is no picture I would maybe drive by and have a look at it. If it is ok I would take at least 3 pallets for that price.


----------



## begreen (Aug 5, 2013)

No pics with the craigslist posting. I was wondering about the thickness and length of the cutoffs. Seems worth pursuing for this season's heating but make sure they fit in your stove without recutting.


----------



## baldhead (Aug 5, 2013)

I burn a couple pallets of bear bricks every year... nice because you can store in the garage.  Just load up the stove and when you get to 750 choke it all the way down... you can throw a couple wet pieces on top.  There 100 percent wood and if they don't state it in the written warranty you can tell them to get bent... I have a Travis avalon stove and nothing about it in my manual.. if the top of the stove starts to glow you are too hot so shut the air off.  I like the bricks because you have more control and my stove is undersize so I like to burn hot with the fan on high.  YES YOU CAN BURN TOO HOT SO MAKE SURE YOU SHUT THE AIR OFF AFTER 750.  If you load with red cedar you probably could get hotter than the bricks.


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

begreen said:


> No pics with the craigslist posting. I was wondering about the thickness and length of the cutoffs. Seems worth pursuing for this season's heating but make sure they fit in your stove without recutting.


 

Try this link please:
https://picasaweb.google.com/104380...&authkey=Gv1sRgCMPMyqnSh8TEDg&feat=directlink


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

baldhead said:


> I burn a couple pallets of bear bricks every year... nice because you can store in the garage. Just load up the stove and when you get to 750 choke it all the way down... you can throw a couple wet pieces on top. There 100 percent wood and if they don't state it in the written warranty you can tell them to get bent... I have a Travis avalon stove and nothing about it in my manual.. if the top of the stove starts to glow you are too hot so shut the air off. I like the bricks because you have more control and my stove is undersize so I like to burn hot with the fan on high. YES YOU CAN BURN TOO HOT SO MAKE SURE YOU SHUT THE AIR OFF AFTER 750. If you load with red cedar you probably could get hotter than the bricks.


 
Here is from the Lopi Endeavor manual:


----------



## isipwater (Aug 5, 2013)

Grisu said:


> That's a steal in my book. $100 for pretty much a cord of kiln-dried hardwood? I pay $200 for a cord of green wood. Since there is no picture I would maybe drive by and have a look at it. If it is ok I would take at least 3 pallets for that price.


 

Try this link for photos, what do you think?
https://picasaweb.google.com/104380...&authkey=Gv1sRgCMPMyqnSh8TEDg&feat=directlink


----------



## baldhead (Aug 6, 2013)

Ok.. but the kindling in the pic will burn hotter than the bricks and is not cordwood either.  I burn everything in my stove so I guess the warranty is void.  My woodstove dealer is oldschool so don't think he will turn me in on the bricks.  If I do have a problem I will tell them I was burning cedar cord wood.


----------



## Grisu (Aug 6, 2013)

Finally, I see it. Not as great as it sounded originally. Will need lots of cutting and most pieces are rather small. Will be great for kindling and to get the stove up to temp; could be mixed in with semi-seasoned wood. However, you may run the risk of overfiring your stove similar or even worse than with the Envi-blocks given that the diameter is even smaller. If that is the best you can get I would take one or two pallets and start cutting it small to mix it with your not so good oak. Get also another 2-3 cords of green wood (not oak) to stack and dry for next year.


----------



## isipwater (Aug 6, 2013)

Grisu said:


> Finally, I see it. Not as great as it sounded originally. Will need lots of cutting and most pieces are rather small. Will be great for kindling and to get the stove up to temp; could be mixed in with semi-seasoned wood. However, you may run the risk of overfiring your stove similar or even worse than with the Envi-blocks given that the diameter is even smaller. If that is the best you can get I would take one or two pallets and start cutting it small to mix it with your not so good oak. Get also another 2-3 cords of green wood (not oak) to stack and dry for next year.


 
Yea, the pieces are rather small, would be a lot of cutting. I will give it some more thought. I really do not want any over firing problems.


----------



## Dave A. (Aug 6, 2013)

isipwater said:


> Here is from the Lopi Endeavor manual:


 
Sounds like the same issue as with the bio bricks -- not cord wood. The problem comes in when you're burning this stuff by itself in a full load, higher chance of overfiring. Mixed in with the marginal firewood to get the mean moisture content down, there shouldn't be a problem.
As far as these 5x5x5 pallets as originally described before I saw the picture -- was picturing a more dense packing like tightly stacked cordwood. What's pictured with all those gaps and spaces, looks much less than 125cu ft.

Was a little surprised you cancelled the bio bricks, but if you really want to follow that 'cordwood only' dictate to the letter, you shouldn't use these hardwood scraps either.

Personally, think that's being a little overcautious. A woodburner needs to think for himself to a certain extent and be reasonable. Mixing either the bio bricks or the hardwood scraps with your not fully seasoned firewood should work the way you want. Get an instant read laser thermo and keep an eye on stove temps to make sure you're not overfiring until you get surer about what you're doing.


----------



## begreen (Aug 6, 2013)

isipwater said:


> Try this link please:
> https://picasaweb.google.com/104380...&authkey=Gv1sRgCMPMyqnSh8TEDg&feat=directlink


 
That's what I use for kindling. It is very dry and because the stock is thin it can burn quickly. You might be better off with the Envi blocks.


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 6, 2013)

I vote for the blocks.  These guys are all right, mix them in a little, don't burn too many at a time and just watch stove temps closely till your used to the burn characteristics.  You'd have the same learning curve with seasoned cord wood anyway.

I can tell you this... Your conscious and conservative approach to burning those blocks will treat that stove a lot better than a good portion of new wood burners would with seasoned oak.

Only in this age of corporate insensitivity would you be told to use your stove as a trinket holder because you can't get dry wood this year.  I'm not pointing fingers here and honestly would have to see the top of the thread to even recall what stove brand we're talking about.

Bottom line is this: no way you're gonna hurt that stove in one season of cautious use with the blocks.  If your stove manufacturer still cares, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt, they would tell you exactly what these guys are saying, to use them with caution.  They would not pin you to the fine print.

Sorry, kinda turned into a rant about corporate America.


----------



## Hoozie (Aug 6, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> 800* is kinda the max target before completely shutting the air off. I certainly do not run there for any length of time. I wasn't poking at you with any of my comments, sorry if that was perceived. Also, the temp gauge you described is brilliant, showing the max reached temp. If it could be invented, could it be tamper proof? I am suggesting some changes to our manuals as well as researching the availability of a custom temp gauge to give model specific readings, to be included with each stove.


 
Aren't there metal tabs that can made with very specific melting points? Rivet one of them inside/outside the box, and if it melts off, warranty is now void.

I also really like the paragraph about ideal stovetop temperatures.

Edit: Heat tabs!  Would need a higher melting point, but the same idea. http://www.engineheattabs.com/buy-engine-heat-tabs/engine-heat-tabs.html


----------



## blades (Aug 6, 2013)

I do understand the difficulty in education of the public in specific areas that are outside their normal comfort zone. ( dealt with it for 30 years) There are those that just are not open minded enough  or incapable of comprehending various areas of our lives. ( see how nice I can be, could have said the same thing in four words). Anyway the posts above from Jason give rise to hope for the industry,  just need more mfgs to be more open minded in relation to a fuel source that in the future will likely play a much larger roll than it does now state side. What really kinda pulls a chain is  companies stating that compressed blocks are not to be used/ will void warranty, when that is  such a large part of the fuel source in Europe and other areas for the same product.


----------



## begreen (Aug 6, 2013)

We have lots more lawyers here than in Europe.


----------



## blades (Aug 6, 2013)

begreen said:


> We have lots more lawyers here than in Europe.


For all the hot air , very low btu value, but they do burn. Drying them out  can be quite challenging though.


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 6, 2013)

Emailed the Lab that handles our safety listings and this is what I got:

Jason,

I am generally uncomfortable with explicitly permitting use of a fuel that we did not do any testing with, for example, stating on your label and manual “For use with pressed logs” without any sort of caveat.  There is standard for compressed logs, UL 2115 “Processed Solid Fuel Firelogs.”  If you wanted to add some information to your labels and manuals about processed logs, it should require the use of logs listed to this standard along with a warning to only burn one log at a time.

Best Regards,


----------



## Jags (Aug 6, 2013)

blades said:


> For all the hot air , very low btu value, but they do burn. Drying them out can be quite challenging though.


 
Okay - this was funny as heck.

Only burn one log at a time?  That would make a pretty useless heater.


----------



## Grisu (Aug 6, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> Emailed the Lab that handles our safety listings and this is what I got:
> 
> Jason,
> 
> ...


 
Very interesting, thanks for posting that. Two thoughts come to my mind. First, it is probably about time that manufacturers think about how to handle compressed wood logs in the future. I doubt they are going away and it would also be a disservice to their customers. Maybe some additional safety testing would be required, maybe it turns out to be a rather benign problem if people watch their stove thermometers. If Kuma wants to take charge with that problem many people would certainly appreciate it. 

Second, I am not an insider but I doubt that the testing fuel encompasses all potential wood types that someone can put in. How would the safety recommendation look like if someone stuffs his stove full with well dried pine? Would the labs be ok with that although strictly speaking it is still "cord wood"? Wood stoves have the problem that there is no standardized fuel. Maybe the safety testing should then mimic a variety of fuel sources instead of going for some "average" standard. Just a thought.


----------



## begreen (Aug 6, 2013)

I think the lab brings up a good point and do agree that one wants to be specific for the qualifying logs. A lot of the angst is because of the ubiquitous waxed logs available at every grocery store. These are a different animal from the Northern Idaho logs or BioBricks. Wax impregnated Duraflame logs should not be burned in a stove. The language used would need to be quite specific to prevent misunderstanding. Having a specific standard for wood stove approved logs would help here.

Note that the lab's language echos that on the Duraflame log site. They tout UL approval, but warn to burn only one log at a time. Methinks we need a woodstove specific standard here.


----------



## Jags (Aug 6, 2013)

begreen said:


> Having a specific standard for wood stove approved logs would help here.


 
NOW you are talking.  Then the stove MFG's could test to those specs and the log MFG's would have to maintain the minimum specifications.  Good call.


----------



## begreen (Aug 6, 2013)

Just stating that only compressed wood products composed solely of wood fiber are acceptable would be a first step. Personally I don't like the low compression wood products, they outgas too quickly. A spec setting the minimum compression would help cull out these products from the higher standard.


----------



## alforit (Aug 6, 2013)

kumastoves said:


> I have personally burned compressed logs in my own Kuma at home, up to 9 North Idaho Energy Logs at one time. I can also glow the top of my stove every time I use it with cord wood if I don't tend it properly.


----------



## Treacherous (Aug 6, 2013)

begreen said:


> Kids, don't try this at home. Those NIELs pack a wallop.
> 
> Jason, I'm sure this was in the name of science and quality control, right?


 
The most I ever use is 4 of the Idaho energy logs on a cold stove.  Normally just two with the rest being cordwood.


----------



## kuma.jason (Aug 6, 2013)

I only used 9 at once the one time.  It was experimental though I did do it for the burn time.  For the record, I don't recommend burning more than 2-3 at once and mixing with cord wood is wise.

If I have a good coal bed though and fill the stove with seasoned Tamarack (western larch), I have a glowing stove top in 10 to 20 minutes easy.  The chimney is about 22 feet tall with 18 feet being insulated and all but 3 feet inside the home.  I'm borderline on needing a damper.


----------



## clemsonfor (Aug 7, 2013)

isipwater said:


> Thanks, seems like a very nice deal, considering I have no seasoned wood as a first time wood stove burner.
> 
> I might have to cut the 5 foot long peices 3-4 times to get them 18" or under but it sounds like it is worth the trouble for $100/pallet. Do you think all the cutting will be worth the trouble?


I dont think you will have many 5ft pieces in there, just a bin that is 5ft. I bet you will have a bunch of stuff down to as small as like 2" sections of stair treads that are cut off. Basically everything that they can pick up easy.


----------



## clemsonfor (Aug 7, 2013)

I would think that if you could get one of the scrap bins and some biobricks and your not so great cord wood you could dial in a pretty good loading situation.  Maybe really small scraps of oak splits on the cutoff from the carpenter to get a coal be then load some more scrap and cordwood with a biobrick burried in the back??  Some combination you come up with will give you better burn time. and get the total MC in the STOVE load down to an acceptable amount since the MC in the bircks would be almost nothing and the scraps are prolly 8-10% and then your cordwood is 30% by burn time.  This would be no different in the right mix than a stove of 19% MC hardwood in my opinion .


----------



## isipwater (Aug 7, 2013)

Here is what I got from my email with Travis Industries (Lopi / Avalon) about burning kiln dried firewood:

*To Travis Industries from me:*

Hello,

I am about to get my first Travis (Lopi Endeavor) stove installed and
I have a technical question.

Will I void my warranty if I burn kiln dried cord firewood.  I looked
through the Endeavor manual and could not find the answer.

Sincerely,

xxxx xxxx

*From Travis to me:*

Hello,

Thank you for purchasing one of our products.  Kiln dried would will burn to quickly which will over fire the unit causing premature failure and possible non-repairable damage.  Seasoned cord wood is the only wood we recommend for use in our appliances.  I hope this is helpful.

Regards,

xxxx xxxx

*To Travis from me:*

Hi xxxx,

Since it is my first year burning I am having difficulty getting truly seasoned firewood.  If I was careful with mixing kiln dried with regular cord wood and used a thermometer to make sure I don't over fire, would this automatically void my warranty?

*From Travis to me:*

I understand your situation.  Our manual is clear regarding the type of wood that should be utilized.  I would recommend talking to your dealer regarding typical burning in your area.

Thanks,

xxxx


----------



## Grisu (Aug 7, 2013)

What does the stove help you if you cannot find the "approved" wood to burn? That response keeps me wondering how they will react if the stove has an actual problem. Since almost all EPA stoves are good heaters one of the more important distinguishing factors is customer service IMHO. I will leave it at that.


----------



## isipwater (Aug 7, 2013)

Grisu said:


> What does the stove help you if you cannot find the "approved" wood to burn? That response keeps me wondering how they will react if the stove has an actual problem. Since almost all EPA stoves are good heaters one of the more important distinguishing factors is customer service IMHO. I will leave it at that.


 
Yes, evade and dismiss.


----------



## begreen (Aug 7, 2013)

isipwater said:


> *From Travis to me:*
> 
> I understand your situation. Our manual is clear regarding the type of wood that should be utilized. I would recommend talking to your dealer regarding typical burning in your area.
> 
> ...


 
The next recommendation will be to talk to their lawyer, lol. There's little commonsense judgement here so they'll let the dealer provide that, hopefully.


----------



## ridemgis (Aug 7, 2013)

Like you, I was terribly worried about overfiring and damaging my first-ever woodstove last winter.  I also bought the stove mid-summer when seasoned wood was scarce.  (Truth be told, in my area seasoned means it was cut the winter prior and split the day before delivery.)  So for a premium price I bought two cords of kiln dried red and white oak.  

I started small, paid attention to stove and flue temps, and very quickly learned how and when to pack the firebox right up to the burn tubes for a long overnight burn with that beautiful, dry oak.  I will admit that it took a while before I could sleep through the night without getting up a couple of times to check on things!

If you're anything like the rest of us, you'll find that figuring all this out is actually a lot of fun.  And your stove is probably more forgiving than Lopi's lawyers want you to believe.  If however you're likely to stuff in an armload of kiln dried or BioBricks, toss in a match and head off to the gym, then yes, you will overfire and void your warranty.

PJ


----------



## isipwater (Aug 7, 2013)

ridemgis said:


> Like you, I was terribly worried about overfiring and damaging my first-ever woodstove last winter. I also bought the stove mid-summer when seasoned wood was scarce. (Truth be told, in my area seasoned means it was cut the winter prior and split the day before delivery.) So for a premium price I bought two cords of kiln dried red and white oak.
> 
> I started small, paid attention to stove and flue temps, and very quickly learned how and when to pack the firebox right up to the burn tubes for a long overnight burn with that beautiful, dry oak. I will admit that it took a while before I could sleep through the night without getting up a couple of times to check on things!
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for sharing your experience.  Hope you have some seasoned wood now!!


----------



## baldhead (Aug 8, 2013)

That letter is called CYA... I wouldn't have bought their stove if I knew the bio bricks would void warranty.. would be nice if they could thicken the walls,  beef up the welds or change the design so they can warranty the stove. The stove can handle the bricks but I guess I can see how someone could melt it if they were totally  clueless.


----------



## ridemgis (Aug 8, 2013)

isipwater said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience.  Hope you have some seasoned wood now!!



Oh yeah!


----------



## bmwloco (Jul 25, 2014)

Up early - working nights make for interesting days off.

Soon to button up my Vermont Resolute.  We moved, and made special care to bring the old VC.  She's been a stalwart stove.  Sporting two Stirling Engine fans now too.

Here in the garage, towering over the old1969 Moto Guzzi V7 is my cache of Envi-8 Logs.  50% 3 packs, 50% 6.  10 rows, 6 feet high.

My truck stays clean now.  My chainsaw idle.  The wood splitter is in storage.  

Last winter in the "new" house (1928 brick with gas furnace) I just pushed the Resolute in position, fired her up, and she was drawing fine.  No smoke.  Nothing but Envi Logs.

Amazing consistent burn time; 1 hour 350F; 1:45 600F - and it was stay at 600F for 8 hours; in the mornings, I could place in a couple more Envi Logs and keep a hot box night to night.

And ash?  Phht.  I only had to shovel it out monthly.  It was fine, very light ash too.

So, sitting here in late July, I'm ready.  Bring on winter.


----------



## prezes13 (Jul 25, 2014)

Towards the end of the heating season I used exclusively eco bricks in my lopi cape cod.  I usually used 8-10 bricks at a time.  Most of the time I would start with a cold stove and have only one fire a day.  I didn't pack the stove tight and I didn't over fire the stove but once I had it going nice I had the air  shut all the way for most of the time.  I was getting long burns 8+ hours.  Once even close to 13.  I would use them all the time but they are too expensive in my opinion.  I think it's easier to over fire stove with fuel bricks but if are cautious they great alternative to cord wood especially if it is wet.


----------



## prezes13 (Jul 25, 2014)

Also funny thing is that my dealer also sells fuel bricks.  Either hot bricks or bio bricks, he also burns them in his show room stoves. That includes travis industry stoves.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jul 25, 2014)

My only source that isn't outrageously priced is a hundred miles away.

Trees are thirty feet from the house on all sides. Five and a half acres of them.


----------



## prezes13 (Jul 25, 2014)

There is a place in my town that sells ton of Eco bricks for $265 I think that it's a lot compared to $3.26 a gallon of oil right now.  I get my wood free so I am a but biased.


----------



## Grisu (Jul 25, 2014)

prezes13 said:


> There is a place in my town that sells ton of Eco bricks for $265 I think that it's a lot compared to $3.26 a gallon of oil right now.  I get my wood free so I am a but biased.



Ecobricks are still cheaper. 1 ton Ecobricks are 20 million BTU (essentially 1 cord of wood) = $13.25 per mBTU. At $3.26 per gallon you are paying $23.30 per mBTU for oil.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jul 25, 2014)

At $265 my old self would be laying them in and letting the saws rest.


----------



## prezes13 (Jul 25, 2014)

I totally agree with you, the way I used to calculate was that 100 gal of oil = a cord of wood.  It's just there is much less work with oil and I can turn the thermostat up or down whenever I want.  I just think that bricks are bit pricey overall to burn them exclusively.  But all that said I will get a ton of them to supplement some of my free wood.


----------



## Grisu (Jul 25, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> At $265 my old self would be laying them in and letting the saws rest.



I was thinking almost the same. Should I ever not be able to process my own wood I don't think I would bother with buying split wood but go directly to burning the bricks. No stacking at least 2 times, less mess, no bugs, less ashes, less creosote, no need to go outside in the cold... Maybe I should switch right now?!


----------



## Grisu (Jul 25, 2014)

prezes13 said:


> I totally agree with you, the way I used to calculate was that 100 gal of oil = a cord of wood.  It's just there is much less work with oil and I can turn the thermostat up or down whenever I want.  I just think that bricks are bit pricey overall to burn them exclusively.  But all that said I will get a ton of them to supplement some of my free wood.



Gallon oil is 140,000 BTU so it's more 150 gallon oil = 1 cord (21 mBTU). Given the amount of money that goes into chainsaw(s) + gear, splitter, woodshed, gas etc. the bricks are not THAT pricey actually.


----------



## prezes13 (Jul 25, 2014)

Grisu said:


> I was thinking almost the same. Should I ever not be able to process my own wood I don't think I would bother with buying split wood but go directly to burning the bricks. No stacking at least 2 times, less mess, no bugs, less ashes, less creosote, no need to go outside in the cold... Maybe I should switch right now?!


Really?  Nothing beats burning real wood.  But yes it is a big convenience, going price of a cord of wood here in ct is $200, split, delivered, not seasoned, so for extra $65 you are getting a premium "wood", looking at them from this perspective maybe bricks are not that pricey after all.  And those stove manufacturers don't want us to burn them.


----------



## Grisu (Jul 25, 2014)

prezes13 said:


> Really?  Nothing beats burning real wood.



I never used them but I doubt that you will see much of a difference when burned in a stove. Secondary flames plus heat is all I need.


> But yes it is a big convenience, going price of a cord of wood here in ct is $200, split, delivered, not seasoned, so for extra $65 you are getting a premium "wood", looking at them from this perspective maybe bricks are not that pricey after all.



Our price around here is similar. That's the reason I would rather buy the bricks than split firewood. The added convenience and less work will make the premium absolutely worthwhile.


> And those stove manufacturers don't want us to burn them.



Certainly not all of them. Osburn (SBI) for example mentions them as permissible fuel in their manuals (at least the few ones I have looked over).


----------



## blades (Jul 26, 2014)

With good hard wood split cord at $300 per around here( ya know it's green and best be able to identify what they are selling as most seem to consider any thing that isn't a conifer, good hardwood ) the blocks represent a much better deal.  One guy quoted 200 a log cord picked up. With pricing in that area might just as well turn on the NG furnace. About the only thing I save on would a gym membership.


----------



## prezes13 (Jul 26, 2014)

You are getting secondary flames and all that it's just a different look of the bricks, especially in the coal stage.  Once you try them you will see.  Wow I was thinking that we pay high prices for wood, oil, gas etc. but some of you guys pay really high prices.


----------



## begreen (Jul 26, 2014)

They are charging that for softwood locally.


----------



## NewStoveGuy (Jul 27, 2014)

Just stunned at some of the pricing out there.  Around here in the Upper South it's $100 - $180 per split, delivered, unseasoned to 6 month seasoned cord of good hardwood.  There are guys who charge more, but they're generally buying wholesale and reselling to those who don't take the time to fire up CL and shop around.

Still looking to lay up a ton of woodbricks though...


----------



## clemsonfor (Jul 27, 2014)

Everything is cheaper in the south


----------

