# Trucks (or engines) to stay away from advice needed



## muncybob (Jan 22, 2014)

My 86 F250 has seen better days. Bed is shot, doors starting to rust out at the bottom, etc. I think it will be retired to be the property plow truck in the near future. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for another 3/4 ton 4X4 with 8' bed. With our available budget I'm probably looking at something around mid 1990's or older and have even entertained the idea of flying south for a short summer vacation and buying a truck down there(hoping it's rust free). I'm also hoping that an older truck will be something I can work on if needed.

What trucks would be off your short list...and even better yet, what ones would be on it?....and why.


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## razerface (Jan 22, 2014)

diesel or gas?

ford makes trucks
harley makes motorcycles
everybody else makes transportation.

 IMHO, a cummins in a ford truck would be perfect.

Dodges are cheaper to buy,,they are all rusting out, but they have that cummins. Nothing else about the truck i like.  Friends own them, but always seem to be working on the trans. They do get the best mpg of the diesels(24 valve)


On fords,,stay over 1993 to get to the powerstroke, stay with the 7.3 (less probs) I get 22 mpg from a 2000.



Gas,, I have no idea.


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## muncybob (Jan 22, 2014)

I have no diesel experience but I would not count them out.


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## tekguy (Jan 22, 2014)

4wd? Simple and basic? 90s F350 with a zf5spd, solid axle front end (less maintenance than the ttb stuff) and the manual trans is solid (the e4od autos found in 90's ford trucks can be pricey to rebuild-95 and later trucks the auto trans is better than earlier)


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## Robert V (Jan 22, 2014)

Old cheap and tough I would go with a 96 or newer ford F-350/450. The late 80's through 98 f-250s have a twin I beam front axle.(no good) I would stay away from a diesel as they cost a lot to fix and you will never see the payback unless you put on a ton of miles. The 7.3 is a great engine but has a lot of electronics to let you down. If you go earlier then a 96 then your going too a pre- OBD2 set up which are difficult to diagnose when there is a problem. Just me thinking out loud anyway.


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## jotul8e2 (Jan 22, 2014)

For occasional use I too would go gas engine over diesel.  In particular, I would avoid the pre-Duramax GM diesels.

I use a couple of '03 Fords in my business - one F350 and one F250.  I also have an '86 Chevy that has been used and abused and used and abused.  And just sold my '04 Chevy K2500 4X4 Duramax after nine years nearly trouble free service.  No reason not to go with either brand, although my 30 years experience using both says that the GM models have a slight advantage in over all repair and maintenance costs.  Dodge has loyal followers, but mostly of the Cummins diesel persuasion.  They can be good trucks, but be prepared to throw more parts at one on an ongoing basis.


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## simple.serf (Jan 22, 2014)

Yeah, a Cummins in a ford would be the best of both worlds, though I have a soft spot for the pre powerstroke diesels (I'm an IH fan).

An F 2/350 with the straight 6 is a pretty good work truck, don't let the TTB/TIB front end scare you. You have one in your current truck. 

I have been hauling wood the past few years with a 1 ton Chevy dump truck. Even though I am not a Chevy guy, the low geared 5 speed coupled to the famous 350 does get the job done pretty well.

Stay away from the Dodge. Everyone I know who has one spends more time under it than driving it.


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## bmblank (Jan 22, 2014)

The duramax is an awesome engine, and the Allison transmission is probably one of the best automatic trannies you can get. Those are definitely some spendy trucks though. I wouldn't spend the money just to use it as a beater. My dad's 10+ year old duramax is still in service and has well over 250k miles, mostly towing a camper or 40 horse Kubota.


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## 711mhw (Jan 22, 2014)

Bob for about $1500 you could throw a flatbed on your old girl, a couple of junkyard doors (or just don't look down) for a few bucks. Sometimes the vehicle you know is better than one that you don't. A 90's truck is still pretty old and has been through 2-3 owners at least.


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## blades (Jan 23, 2014)

Mid south or interior trucks ok but pay attention to past weather related items ( floods) coastal units rust out worse than road salt treated units as the vapor gets everywhere. If your frame and running gear are good then the addition of some replacement parts might be an option depending on your ability or gumption.  Had a 85 F350 6.9 diesel.  Ran it right into the ground body and frame wise, there was not much left on the poor old girl above the tires. I plow snow and the frame was starting to go so had to replace her about 6 years back. Due to fuel pricing went back to gas. I will stay with gas due to the EPA trashing the diesel fuel. Gm or Ford +/- either way, Dodge never been a fan, and yes I have had a couple- not the best experiences, way to much out of service time.  
Current units 99 f350 v10 and a 06 f250 5.4.  The 350 has 4.7x rear gears so mileage is short but will do everything the 7.3  can just a bit more in fuel use but balanced by the lower maintenance costs.  The 06 does ok and is my daily drive, I do not use it for hauling massive loads got the 350 for that, but it will get it done in a pinch. I tend to stay with Ford on the truck side


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## razerface (Jan 23, 2014)

blades said:


> I will stay with gas due to the EPA trashing the diesel fuel.  I tend to stay with Ford on the truck side


 i saw E15 gas yesterday for $2.47 gal. Junk is coming for gas too


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## ironpony (Jan 23, 2014)

12 valve Cummins, 100% mechanical, will run forever period. You decide what brand you want it in.
24 valve Cummins 5 or 6 speed, also will last forever period. You decide what brand you want it in.
I will not get involved in Dodge vs Ford vs Chevy, you want a motor to last forever, CUMMINS period.


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## muncybob (Jan 23, 2014)

Yep, I had given some thought as to stay away from coastal regions when looking for a truck. Part of me wants a newer truck for the amenities(ac, nicer ride, etc) but part of me says sink a grand or so into the current beast and go from there. It has a 351(rebuilt 20k ago) 4bl/carb and really only gets about 1500 miles/year put on it...mostly firewood work. Would love to find a newer truck with a Cummins that I could afford though but with the limited use she gets it's probably not worth the expense. Maybe the Mrs would be happy if I could find a good bed, did some body work and painted it.


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## ironpony (Jan 23, 2014)

sounds like you answered your own question. Put 1000 into your existing truck and be happy. that's what I would more than likely do.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jan 23, 2014)

muncybob said:


> My 86 F250 has seen better days. Bed is shot, doors starting to rust out at the bottom, etc. I think it will be retired to be the property plow truck in the near future. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for another 3/4 ton 4X4 with 8' bed. With our available budget I'm probably looking at something around mid 1990's or older and have even entertained the idea of flying south for a short summer vacation and buying a truck down there(hoping it's rust free). I'm also hoping that an older truck will be something I can work on if needed.
> 
> What trucks would be off your short list...and even better yet, what ones would be on it?....and why.



From mid-90s?  GM/Chevy 6.5 diesel is a complete and unredeemable hunk of s__t. 

I'm not a huge fan of gas powered Dodges of that era but for the right price they're OK.


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## muncybob (Jan 23, 2014)

ironpony said:


> sounds like you answered your own question. Put 1000 into your existing truck and be happy. that's what I would more than likely do.


 
It's likely what I'll wind up doing, but if the right truck pops up at the right price before putting $$ into the ole girl I'll buy the truck and not put anything other than gas and oil into the 86.


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## bassJAM (Jan 23, 2014)

I've never cared for Dodge and will say they are a POS, but if you find one from the 90's still running chances are it was one of those few good ones and will continue to be so.  I grew up a GM/Chevy fan but I think over the years they have cheapened non-critical parts, it seems most people with a Chevy older than 5-8 years old now have door handles where they need to open them from the outside, seat adjustment levers are broken, tailgates held shut by ratchet straps, etc.  The frame, engine, and tranny may be great, but you get nickled and dimed on the little stuff.  I've changed to a Ford fan now, although I'll take a Toyota or Nissan truck over the Big Three for compact and 1/2 ton trucks.  Not really an option of you are looking for something in the 90's or want 3/4 - 1 ton.


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## tekguy (Jan 23, 2014)

chevy interior door handles do suck


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## MofoG23 (Jan 23, 2014)

muncybob said:


> Yep, I had given some thought as to stay away from coastal regions when looking for a truck. Part of me wants a newer truck for the amenities(ac, nicer ride, etc) but part of me says sink a grand or so into the current beast and go from there. It has a 351(rebuilt 20k ago) 4bl/carb and really only gets about 1500 miles/year put on it...mostly firewood work. Would love to find a newer truck with a Cummins that I could afford though but with the limited use she gets it's probably not worth the expense. Maybe the Mrs would be happy if I could find a good bed, did some body work and painted it.



As an owner of some older iron myself, I think this is your best idea.  You know the truck really well, maintenance is simple, if you take it off road and bump a tree....no big deal.  Sounds like a solid rig....

Now if your frame was rotted out or had other significant issues, then I'd consider looking for something else.

I'd love to have a Cummins someday....but it will be a swap into my K20.  Future project for the boys when they get older...


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## simple.serf (Jan 23, 2014)

Bigg_Redd said:


> From mid-90s?  GM/Chevy 6.5 diesel is a complete and unredeemable hunk of s__t.



Haha...

The 6.2 was a better engine. It didn't have enough power to hurt itself.

Put the 1k into the truck you have. I'm sure you can find a good bed somewhere, and get her all cleaned up.


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## greg13 (Jan 23, 2014)

Dodge w/Cummings are bullet proof, but the body rusts off here in NY.
Ford with 7.3 is a better motor. Had a F250 w/ a 460 in it, it would pull anything that you cold hook to it except for a gas hose.
Personal preference, stay away from GM. I can still remember that converted 350 diesel that was junk from the word go.

Greg


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## Halligan (Jan 23, 2014)

For occasional use skip the diesel. As a former diesel owner I will tell you that unless you drive a ridiculous amount of miles annually or tow heavy (8,000lb or greater) on a regular basis then a diesel is nothing more than a novelty.

As for a mid 1990's truck I would go with a F-350 gasser or a Dodge Ram 2500 gasser. 

The Dodge 2500 body style from 1994-2002 is referred to a a "2nd generation" truck. In the 2500's you could have either a 360ci gas, V-10 Gas, or Cummins diesel. For firewood duty a 360ci gasser is fine. Also the 2nd gen Dodges offered an optional "camper package" that added beefed up rear springs. Similar to a modern 3500 with single rear wheels. If you can find a decent 1994-2002 Dodge 4X4 2500 I would not be scared of it. In 1998 Dodge refreshed the interior so it's a little nicer than the 1994-1997 version. 

As for Ford I suggest the F-350 which gives you a solid from axle (Dana 60) vs. the F-250 Dana 50 TTB axle. A 351ci engine would be fine but I'm sure the 460ci can be had as well. 

I'm not a big fan of 1990's GM trucks. IMHO GM was selling junk in the 90's though others will disagree.

Look out west for a truck. Go onto craigslist in Arizona, Nevada, Southern California. Lot's of rust free truck out there.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jan 23, 2014)

Halligan said:


> *For occasional use skip the diesel.* As a former diesel owner I will tell you that unless you drive a ridiculous amount of miles annually or tow heavy (8,000lb or greater) on a regular basis then a diesel is nothing more than a novelty.




As the owner of a diesel powered 1999 Dodge 3500 I couldn't agree more.


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## blacktail (Jan 24, 2014)

Halligan said:


> The Dodge 2500 body style from 1994-2002 is referred to a a "2nd generation" truck. In the 2500's you could have either a 360ci gas, V-10 Gas, or Cummins diesel. For firewood duty a 360ci gasser is fine.



The 360s from the 2nd gen dodges have a reputation for cracked heads.
And it seems everyone with a 3/4 or 1 ton dodge makes regular visits to a shop for front end work.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jan 24, 2014)

blacktail said:


> The 360s from the 2nd gen dodges have a reputation for cracked heads.
> _*And it seems everyone with a 3/4 or 1 ton dodge makes regular visits to a shop for front end work.*_



Even when they are in perfect mechanical condition they feel worn out.  After 7 years I'm used to the vague feel, but so far only 1 trip to the shop for front end parts.  So far.


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## ironpony (Jan 24, 2014)

Bigg_Redd said:


> Even when they are in perfect mechanical condition they feel worn out.  After 7 years I'm used to the vague feel, but so far only 1 trip to the shop for front end parts.  So far.


 


when you have to replace the front end parts, buy the 2008 parts. They have changed the geometry and it is great. for 300 bucks, most guys are just changing them to eliminate the loose feel. direct replacement even though its not listed as such. Steve white motors on EBAY 288 shipped to your door.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jan 24, 2014)

ironpony said:


> when you have to replace the front end parts, buy the 2008 parts. They have changed the geometry and it is great. for 300 bucks, most guys are just changing them to eliminate the loose feel. direct replacement even though its not listed as such. Steve white motors on EBAY 288 shipped to your door.



Kinda wish I'd known this 2 weeks ago. . .


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## NRGarrott (Jan 24, 2014)

I would avoid early editions of the ford 5.4.


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## ironpony (Jan 24, 2014)

O.K. lets just do this,
buy a ford chassis and body, 4x4 with dana 80 and dana 70
add a Cummins engine,
with an Allison transmission out of a school bus
and call it good


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## NRGarrott (Jan 24, 2014)

I think that is called a Fummins. The problem with Fummins is your wife's cousin Bob dropped that joker in for a case a beer. You know Bob, he worked 2 weeks at a dealership detailing cars, borrows money every Christmas, constantly on unemployment. There was that one time he put gasoline in a kerosene heater trying to save a few bucks, boy that was a close call. That is who will work on your Fummins when anything goes wrong.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

You most likely want a newer and heavier truck but I just have to show off my $1000 1978 F150 I bought two years ago with 80% rubber and a good Ford 300/4.9 and the BW T18 granny gear 4 speed all original. It has some old truck problems here and there like old weather seals and some rust but I'm working on it slowly.


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## muncybob (Jan 24, 2014)

I really like the older trucks ...and that looks like in decent shape for the age, just seem to have more character(whatever that means!). But with the hauling I do it needs to be 3/4 or larger.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

I here ya, a 3/4 ton would be the thing to have for a wood hauler.


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## Halligan (Jan 25, 2014)

To the OP is this going to be a daily driver or a wood hauler? When buying a truck over 15 years old you must expect and accept some issues. I find that some guy's are blinded by loyalty for a specific brand. For example Dodge has been accused of having a weak front end. This is partly due to a bad track bar design and weak ball joints which can be improved greatly with a better aftermarket parts. 

Ford has it's issues with the TTB front axle in the F-250's. 

GM trucks have a decent engine/trans combo. However, they have an IFS front axle and are generally wimpier than Ford and Dodge's from the same era. Plus they have lousy ground clearance from the low hanging frame.

Again I ask, is it a daily driver or work truck? Issue's like vague steering are easily overlooked on a dedicated work truck but if your driving it daily it can be annoying. A 15-20 y/o truck will have issues so find the truck with the least amount of rust that appears to have been well maintained. Fix the stupid little things and throw some wood in the back.

One other note on diesels: Trucks that have a Cummins or PowerStroke in good condition are commanding top dollar right now. Over the last few years a diesel craze has swept through the youth of america and hot rodding diesels is a fun sport/pastime. Unmolestered diesels from the 90's and early 2000's are getting hard to come by hence the price premium and the hot rodded ones are usually beat on pretty hard. Buyer beware.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 25, 2014)

muncybob said:


> I have no diesel experience but I would not count them out.


DO yourself a favor COUNT THEM OUT. I love those HD diesels ,but i wont buy one.My son has owned several and they are money pits. Iv had the same 1995 K2500 GM SIlverado for about 11 years now. It is just so dependable,rarely anything breaks, has about 175000 miles on it,zero rust and i use it several times a week. During that time my son has gone through several diesels and spent obscene amounts of cash on them. EDIT i forgot to mention that my SIlverado has a regular GAS ENGINE


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## ironpony (Jan 25, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> DO yourself a favor COUNT THEM OUT. I love those HD diesels ,but i wont buy one.My son has owned several and they are money pits. Iv had the same 1995 K2500 GM SIlverado for about 11 years now. It is just so dependable,rarely anything breaks, has about 175000 miles on it,zero rust and i use it several times a week. During that time my son has gone through several diesels and spent obscene amounts of cash on them.





and I am 52 and have had several diesels ( CUMMINS) that the only thing I have done is change the oil on them. all had hundreds of thousands of miles on them. I would not own a gas truck ever again. Cummins 20 mpg and haul anything you need to.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 25, 2014)

ironpony said:


> and I am 52 and have had several diesels ( CUMMINS) that the only thing I have done is change the oil on them. all had hundreds of thousands of miles on them. I would not own a gas truck ever again. Cummins 20 mpg and haul anything you need to.


I do hear good things about those cummins, but every diesel breaks at some point and they are very expensive to fix. Plus most of my trips are very short,not good for a diesel.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jan 25, 2014)

ironpony said:


> and I am 52 and have had several diesels ( CUMMINS) that the only thing I have done is change the oil on them. all had hundreds of thousands of miles on them. I would not own a gas truck ever again. Cummins 20 mpg and haul anything you need to.



Yeah. . . I had a lift pump go on mine.  Which took out the injector pump.  $4500 by the time it was all said and done.  

I love my truck.  And I'm a diesel guy, but I wouldn't recommend one unless you're putting in a lot of miles.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 25, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> D





Bigg_Redd said:


> Yeah. . . I had a lift pump go on mine.  Which took out the injector pump.  $4500 by the time it was all said and done.
> I love my truck.  And I'm a diesel guy, but I wouldn't recommend one unless you're putting in a lot of miles.


I could probably buy a whole replacement truck for my 95 for that much cash. That about all it books for.


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## muncybob (Jan 27, 2014)

Whatever I decide on, it will be primarily a work truck. Only put about 1600 miles on my F250 in the last 2+ years..mainly plowing our 1/4 mile lane and wood hauling. It use to haul horses when my daughter lived here but now the horses are mainly lawn ornaments 

I've never had any major issues with this truck in the 15+ years that I've owned it, but bed is shot, doors are rusting, floor boards have holes in them, seat is looking bad too. On the 1 hand I want a nicer looking truck but then again I'm not afraid to take her deep into the woods and get some scratches on it. I think I'll probably just patch it up unless a really sweet deal comes along.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 27, 2014)

heres a winner:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-F-350-...588dc91e0&item=161209946592&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
if this guy is not a member on hearth, he should be!


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## MofoG23 (Jan 27, 2014)

Coal Reaper said:


> heres a winner:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-F-350-...588dc91e0&item=161209946592&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
> if this guy is not a member on hearth, he should be!



Damn near the perfect truck IMO...just missing a manual tranny (personal preference).


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## Dieselhead (Jan 27, 2014)

I know the fella who owns that truck , it's a well done conversion.


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## Highbeam (Jan 27, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I could probably buy a whole replacement truck for my 95 for that much cash. That about all it books for.


 
I have a 2000 powerstroke ford diesel. It has been very good with no breakdowns. It's loud, stiff riding, and slow but has been very dependable. I am scared to death that it will just suddenly break on me and cost 4500$ which, BTW, is what a simple transmission replacement goes for.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 27, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I have a 2000 powerstroke ford diesel. It has been very good with no breakdowns. It's loud, stiff riding, and slow but has been very dependable. I am scared to death that it will just suddenly break on me and cost 4500$ which, BTW, is what a simple transmission replacement goes for.


I have an '02 with a real xfer case. Only issue under the hood has been an alternator. Othere than that just balls joints and bearings. It aint that slow for 8500#s. runs a 16s 1/4 mile. Loud stiff and slow?  Thats my other truck with a white engine. We wont call that a diesel tho.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 27, 2014)

As to the OP, i would stay away from engines with VGT.  Thereabouts 2003 and newer. They dont work properly when carbon starts building upand turbo needs to be pulled apart to clean. Coworker is having issues with his LBZ right now. Told me cummins even now has a port to inject cleaner directly to turbo.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 27, 2014)

Im soon in the market to update. Ill be looking for the same thing i have now(1995 K2500 ex cab GM) only about 10 years newer. That would still make it 10 years old. Ill be happy with that 6.0L gasser that comes standard in that model. Id keep mine but its a pain with that 3" lift kit and big tires gettin stuff in and out of the back,plus just gettin in and out of it. It would cost too much to have the lift taken off and buy new wheels and tires.


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## Halligan (Jan 27, 2014)

I know I said stay away from diesel's but if you or anyone else reading this really wants a newer diesel consider this. 

In my opinion if you want the holy grail of modern diesels look for a 2003-2004 Dodge Cummins with the HO Cummins. It produces 305hp/555tq and has no EGR, no catalytic converter, no variable geometry turbo, and it can be had in automatic or 6 speed manual. I had a 2004 Ram 2500 with the above mentioned engine and kick myself frequently for trading it on a Ford. Yes I've driven a Ford. A 2008 F-350 V-10 to be exact. BTW it was a shop queen so I drive a Dodge again.

Like I said in a previous post, they will command top dollar. But a clean 305/555 Cummins is the shizzle.


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## Get Wood (Jan 27, 2014)

I can tell you what not to buy and that is a Ford 6.0 diesel.  It was an expensive lesson for me.  They put this junk in their trucks from 2003 to 2007.
I didn't do enough research but that is the last dollar Ford will ever get from me.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jan 28, 2014)

Get Wood said:


> I can tell you what not to buy and that is a Ford 6.0 diesel.  It was an expensive lesson for me.  They put this junk in their trucks from 2003 to 2007.
> I didn't do enough research but that is the last dollar Ford will ever get from me.



Yup.  The 6.0 PSD is a steaming pile.


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## ironpony (Jan 28, 2014)

Halligan said:


> I know I said stay away from diesel's but if you or anyone else reading this really wants a newer diesel consider this.
> 
> In my opinion if you want the holy grail of modern diesels look for a 2003-2004 Dodge Cummins with the HO Cummins. It produces 305hp/555tq and has no EGR, no catalytic converter, no variable geometry turbo, and it can be had in automatic or 6 speed manual. I had a 2004 Ram 2500 with the above mentioned engine and kick myself frequently for trading it on a Ford. Yes I've driven a Ford. A 2008 F-350 V-10 to be exact. BTW it was a shop queen so I drive a Dodge again.
> 
> Like I said in a previous post, they will command top dollar. But a clean 305/555 Cummins is the shizzle.


 



I have to agree with you on this. I had an 03 4 door but I traded it for an 02 quad, why you ask? I really missed the Cummins rattle, the 03 with the common rail was to quiet. Have had 4 of them over the years, 2nd gens are my favorites. 02 HO six speed SRW 1 ton, 20 mpg all day long and will haul anything you can legally load on it.


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## Chicken Farmer (Jan 28, 2014)

Just my 2cents.....

I have a 97 F350 with the Powerstroke. I have been fiddling with diesels for alot of years and am a "Ford guy". The diesel I own now is stock except for a chip and exhaust that was installed by the previous owner. It starts in the cold and runs great, however these older trucks with no rust and straight body panels are expensive. I would not be afraid of the 7.3 motor as far as reliability. Mine has 201K on it and runs solid and tight. However given the scope of the thread and what the original poster is looking to do with the truck, here are my suggestions:

Skip list:

Chevy trucks, because of the front IFS setup. The small block Chevy is bullet proof and legendary but they gave the truck a weak front. 
Ford trucks with the TTB front axle. I owned a 94 F250 for years and never could fix the sagging and alignment issues, and the inner u-joint by the differential is no picnic to change.
Ford trucks with the early modular motor (99-03). They had trouble with spark plugs seizing in the head, and also breaking exhaust manifold bolts.
Dodge trucks 2nd gen, for all the front end problems that were mentioned

Buy list:

Older southern chevy 3/4 and 1 ton trucks with solid axle front
OBS Fords with either gas or diesel engine - 1 ton
Super duty Ford (99-current) 3/4 or 1 ton, both have solid front axle, with the diesel. Or gas motor 2004 and later
Dodge trucks 2nd gen with upgraded 2008 front end parts, prefer cummins over gas
Dodge trucks 3rd gen cummins
Any old international pickups - because they are cool


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## muncybob (Jan 28, 2014)

Love the photo!! Partly because I like good looking trucks and partly because it's so damn cold out right now


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 28, 2014)

because they are cool!
very nice truck chicken farmer


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## Chicken Farmer (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks!! I like me some OBS Fords!!


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## Highbeam (Jan 28, 2014)

Get Wood said:


> I can tell you what not to buy and that is a Ford 6.0 diesel.  It was an expensive lesson for me.  They put this junk in their trucks from 2003 to 2007.
> I didn't do enough research but that is the last dollar Ford will ever get from me.


 
2003 was a transition year, there are both 6.0 and 7.3 diesels available in 2003. When the 6.0 works, it is a great engine with a great auto trans, but unfortunately they break very often and cost big bucks to fix.


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## Highbeam (Jan 28, 2014)

ironpony said:


> . Have had 4 of them over the years, 2nd gens are my favorites. 02 HO six speed SRW 1 ton, 20 mpg all day long and will haul anything you can legally load on it.


 
Are you sure you have a SRW one ton? I don't think Dodge made a 3500 SRW until the new body style trucks in 03.


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## Bigg_Redd (Jan 28, 2014)

Interesting. . . 


autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/car-dealer-scientific-guide-10-best-used-vehicles-181842236.html


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## Isaac Carlson (Jan 28, 2014)

I have a 1991 f250 with the famous 300-6 and mazda 5 speed manual.  I love it.  It always starts and will haul anything.  It may not be the fastest truck on the road, but it out hauls most others and passes the 4wd guys in the snow when I have my chains on.  It has carried more than 1,000,000 pounds (maybe 2,000,000) in the short 3 years that I have had it.  It will carry 2 yards of river rock without complaining and will tell you to keep stacking the firewood in the bed, even when it is falling off the sides.  It gets about 20mpg.


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## ironpony (Jan 29, 2014)

ironpony said:


> I have to agree with you on this. I had an 03 4 door but I traded it for an 02 quad, why you ask? I really missed the Cummins rattle, the 03 with the common rail was to quiet. Have had 4 of them over the years, 2nd gens are my favorites. 02 HO six speed SRW 1 ton





Highbeam said:


> Are you sure you have a SRW one ton? I don't think Dodge made a 3500 SRW until the new body style trucks in 03.


 


it actually is ratings and build wise but they still listed it as a 2500. kind of a hidden package deal. From what I understand when you added the 6 speed that year, 2002, it automatically upgrade the rest, Cummins HO, transfer case, Dana 80,and springs.


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## ironpony (Jan 29, 2014)

Isaac Carlson said:


> I have a 1991 f250 with the famous 300-6 and mazda 5 speed manual.  I love it.  It always starts and will haul anything.  It may not be the fastest truck on the road, but it out hauls most others and passes the 4wd guys in the snow when I have my chains on.  It has carried more than 1,000,000 pounds (maybe 2,000,000) in the short 3 years that I have had it.  It will carry 2 yards of river rock without complaining and will tell you to keep stacking the firewood in the bed, even when it is falling off the sides.  It gets about 20mpg.


 


those old straight sixes were bullet proof, remember the "leaning tower of power" in the Dodges? 225 slant six. Never seen one of those blow up.


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## Coal Reaper (Jan 29, 2014)

ironpony said:


> it actually is ratings and build wise but they still listed it as a 2500. kind of a hidden package deal. From what I understand when you added the 6 speed that year, 2002, it automatically upgrade the rest, Cummins HO, transfer case, Dana 80,and springs.


 FOUND ONE...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Ram-2...38a244fba&item=221360967610&pt=US_Cars_Trucks


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## D8Chumley (Jan 29, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> 2003 was a transition year, there are both 6.0 and 7.3 diesels available in 2003. When the 6.0 works, it is a great engine with a great auto trans, but unfortunately they break very often and cost big bucks to fix.


Yup, mine ran great, until it didn't. Cost me around $8K in one year with everything that broke/died/stopped working. CFO said it gotta go. I loved that truck, 04 CC King Ranch on 37's. Hated the engine


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## Jags (Jan 29, 2014)

ironpony said:


> those old straight sixes were bullet proof, remember the "leaning tower of power" in the Dodges? 225 slant six. Never seen one of those blow up.



They never would.  I ran a couple as a kid and was not kind to them.  They would eventually loose so much compression that you could spin them over with the fan blades.   I checked the oil when the light came on.


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## ShenValSteve (Feb 4, 2014)

A little late on this one, but I can tell from looking myself that if you want a regular cab 3/4 ton 4x4 truck, they are rarer than hens teeth south of my location, regardless of make.  A local used lot has a beautiful mid -90s Ford regular cab F250 on the lot just in the last couple of days, not sure if it's a diesel or not.


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## dave2112 (Feb 4, 2014)

muncybob said:


> My 86 F250 has seen better days. Bed is shot, doors starting to rust out at the bottom, etc. I think it will be retired to be the property plow truck in the near future. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for another 3/4 ton 4X4 with 8' bed. With our available budget I'm probably looking at something around mid 1990's or older and have even entertained the idea of flying south for a short summer vacation and buying a truck down there(hoping it's rust free). I'm also hoping that an older truck will be something I can work on if needed.
> 
> What trucks would be off your short list...and even better yet, what ones would be on it?....and why.


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## dave2112 (Feb 4, 2014)

Testing out how to reply on this forum. And at the same time throwing my hat in for the dodge 360 2nd generation trucks. I owned one for 7 years never had a problem, just sold it for something nicer it was an 01 2500 w/ towing package was the best truck I ever owned as far as reliability. Sold it with 220,000 miles on of to friend Its still going strong. My nephew has same truck, same motor, wihh 410,000  miles on the o.d. still round strong.


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## duramax1 (Feb 5, 2014)

I have a 2005 Chevy Silverado 3500 Duramax/Allison.  Its the LS model with the vinyl floors and window cranks and the Duramax numbers are 310hp and 520ftlbs of torque.  It has an AFE cold air intake and an AFE Atlas 4" exhaust with the factory downpipe.  It is rated to haul 3,000lbs payload and will pull 12,000.  The only issue with the LLY was occasional overheating but mine has always ran normal temps.. It has the typical loose steering column feeling that these trucks had and I did have to replace the front wheel hubs too.  The hubs were $350 and a mechanic friend helped me change them out.  Its a solid truck and will tow/haul anything I will ever need.


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## muncybob (Oct 2, 2015)

Had to revisit this thread. I've been "coaxing" the old F250 along up until now. Took it to the shop to have tailpipes bent(not stock exhaust) and just got the call I've been dreading. He said the frame is so bad the truck could snap in 1/2 anytime now   He would not even trust it if it were just used to plow my lane...real bummer...moment of silence please.


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## Mr. Jones (Oct 2, 2015)

I just bought a new to me dodge a couple of months ago. 95 3/4 ton with airbags. I bought it to pull my 28 foot travel trailer, and thought I'd go big with the almost 500 C.I  8 liter v 10. Well, to date, I haven't even pulled anything with it yet, and just use it as a daily driver, which is a mistake. 10 MPG in town or on highway, since it's low geared. I hear it gets around 6 mpg when towing something heavy. Now I need to buy a small car that's my everyday driver. When this thing came out, it had more torque than the other two diesel options with dodge, albeit with higher rpm, resulting in the horrible gas mileage. I also bought it because it only had 110,000 on it. Hopefully soon, I'll get to go camping and try it out towing. Filling the bed up to the canopy with wood doesn't make it squat at all with the bags, which is nice. I haven't really researched how reliable these engine are or aren't. I have heard though that some parts may be hard to come by, and I know a rebuilt one costs exactly twice as much as the 360. Ouch.


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## blades (Oct 2, 2015)

muncybob said:


> Had to revisit this thread. I've been "coaxing" the old F250 along up until now. Took it to the shop to have tailpipes bent(not stock exhaust) and just got the call I've been dreading. He said the frame is so bad the truck could snap in 1/2 anytime now   He would not even trust it if it were just used to plow my lane...real bummer...moment of silence please.


 Had the same issue with my F350 85 vintage about 8 years ago


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## muncybob (Oct 3, 2015)

Previous entries in this thread talked about 1st, 2nd generation Dodge trucks...exactly what years/models are we talking about in these "generations"?


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## Dieselhead (Oct 3, 2015)

1st gen is 89-93
2nd gen is 94-02
3rd gen 03-09
4th gen 2010-present


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 3, 2015)

Iv been driving a 95 Silverado K2500 for about 15 years on a daily basis. Im always amazed at this trucks ongoing reliability. Iv got 175000 miles on it and requires very little in the way of repairs ,just regular maintenance. Im not really surprised because iv been driving this brand since the mid 80s after giving up on fords. My last chevy was a 4x4 half ton and just as good.No offense to fords but iv  had about 3 ford trucks prior to 1985 and none were dependable or reliable or durable. Im sure they are much better today.


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## Isaac Carlson (Oct 4, 2015)

A frame can be easily repaired/replaced with some good channel iron.  I am not certain on the legalities of it, but it has been done many times.  Don't do it if you don't know what you are doing.  The cut through the frame has to be at least 2.5 times longer than the depth of the frame, meaning it has to be cut at an angle.  The webs have to be cut square.  Make a good weld and keep the frame from getting too hot.  If you can weld halfway decent, the repair should last as long as the truck.


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## muncybob (Oct 5, 2015)

The rest of the truck is also rusting away and the frame is bad(almost paper thin) in several spots. Really not worth saving so I'' ll take it off the road and just snow plow our lane with it hoping I can get a few more years out of her. After getting input from the Mrs our shopping list looks like this: 4X4, 3/4 ton+, need a back seat, 8' bed and able to do heavy towing when needed. All this for under $10k....wish me luck!


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## bholler (Oct 5, 2015)

muncybob said:


> The rest of the truck is also rusting away and the frame is bad(almost paper thin) in several spots. Really not worth saving so I'' ll take it off the road and just snow plow our lane with it hoping I can get a few more years out of her. After getting input from the Mrs our shopping list looks like this: 4X4, 3/4 ton+, need a back seat, 8' bed and able to do heavy towing when needed. All this for under $10k....wish me luck!


Yeah good luck with that I am not far from you and i just spent a year looking for a decent beater wood truck to replace my old jeep truck that has gotten to rusty to be worth fixing.  I ended up with a 1990 f250 that runs great but need some rust repair on the body.  But finding a decent 4x4 truck with a good frame is not easy to do in our area without spending allot of money.


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## lotawood (Oct 6, 2015)

Good luck with a replacement.  I think the hardest part is getting a good value on a used pickup.  There is plenty of junk and people baling out of a failing rig.  

I think there are plenty of choices in your price range and requirements.  Maybe not in the north east part of the country.

It also help if you are not brand loyal, which I haven't heard you say.

I am a diesel fan.  If I only used it as little as you are saying, I would buy gas.  But I hear Mrs. may have upped the list to more than wood and plowing?

I have one of those 2004 dodge cummins that people were claiming were the ultimate.  That is why I got it and plan to keep it for a long time.  That might be in your budget if you can wait for the right situation, heavy on the might.  Most are above that now.  High miles are less of a problem with cummins, more with dodge.  Get a manual if you can.


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## Longstreet (Oct 13, 2015)

ironpony said:


> it actually is ratings and build wise but they still listed it as a 2500. kind of a hidden package deal. From what I understand when you added the 6 speed that year, 2002, it automatically upgrade the rest, Cummins HO, transfer case, Dana 80,and springs.



I didn't realize my 2002 6 speed with the extra springs was a 1 ton in hiding.  Makes sense.  Seriously, I don't think there is a pickup truck out there which is better all around.  Sure, the new ones have more power but they are choked down with EPA junk.  The common rail are alright till 2007.5.  And neither Ford or Chevy even give you an option of a standard transmission these days. .

I love how the Duramax guy was bragging about his Chevy with 250k miles.  Lol, that's not even middle aged for a 12/24v Cummins.

Check all the list of best engines ever manufactured - you will see one name come up again and again.  There's a reason why Ford put the Cummins ISB in their F650/750 trucks for 15 years, they knew they couldn't handicap their class 6-7 trucks with the 6.0 like they did to their light duty truck owners.


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## Vikestand (Oct 14, 2015)

Rarely do they have lemons anymore. I don't get the ford vs. Chevy vs dodge. They all have chit they're good for and stuff they're not. The fanboys get all excited for this stuff. 

250k miles on an engine may not be much for the ENGINE. But that is still 250k on the rest of the truck. Gotta figure that in.


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## jeffesonm (Oct 14, 2015)

I picked up an 01 F250 super duty earlier this year, only 54K miles, 8' bed 4x4 ext cab V10 5 speed for just over 10K, not far from you actually.  They can be had if you look hard.

Didn't want the fuss of a diesel for the <5K miles/year I drive my truck.


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## mike van (Oct 16, 2015)

My advice for a used truck, no matter what brand, shop as far from New England or the rust belt as you can.  The road salt & brine spray will eat them all.


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## 3fordasho (Oct 16, 2015)

If you can find one that is not rusted away - up through 94 F350 with the 7.3 non-power stroke IH diesel.  I've got a 93, non-turbo, ZF-5 speed, straight front axel (I've heard to stay away from the F250's front axle)  No speed demon but enough power to pull a flat bed full of wood and a trailer behind. Better mileage than my F150 with the 5.0.    Simple diesel and maintenance not much more than a gasser (sure it uses 12 quarts oil vs 5.5)  but the gassers just can't handle a load unless your talking big block with its 6-8mpg.


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## bholler (Oct 16, 2015)

jeffesonm said:


> I picked up an 01 F250 super duty earlier this year, only 54K miles, 8' bed 4x4 ext cab V10 5 speed for just over 10K, not far from you actually. They can be had if you look hard.
> Didn't want the fuss of a diesel for the <5K miles/year I drive my truck.


That is because of the v10 no one want that motor lol


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## Aqua-Andy (Oct 19, 2015)

I just have read some of this and just have to post my thoughts on the subject.  Used trucks are big money these days due to the price of new trucks.  Basic Chevy extend cabs are selling for over thirty grand, K2500 with a Duramax and allison pushing 70K.  I have worked in GM dealerships for twenty years and in never seen people put the kind of money into vehicles like they have in the past five or so years.  If you can keep them from rotting out they will last a very long time!  I have pulled heads off GM gen three v8's with over 200K and you can still see the hash marks in the cylinders, these things just don't wear out if you take care of them.  If you live in the rust belt the best thing you can do for your vehicle is keep it in a garage when not in use.  You can tell instantly from looking under a vehicle if it is garaged or not it literally is a night and day difference.  Several people have posted here about how all this emissions crap bogs down the engine and they have no power.  This is total crap, try and name one emission system that bogs down an engine. I bet you can't if you actually know how these systems work.  There is so much mis-information in this thread it boggled the mind.  One last thing to remember, there is always a reason someone is getting rid of a vehicle and very very few will actually tell you the correct reason.


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## Anumber1 (Oct 19, 2015)

muncybob said:


> Had to revisit this thread. I've been "coaxing" the old F250 along up until now. Took it to the shop to have tailpipes bent(not stock exhaust) and just got the call I've been dreading. He said the frame is so bad the truck could snap in 1/2 anytime now   He would not even trust it if it were just used to plow my lane...real bummer...moment of silence please.


That was the exact issue that ended my '85 GMC K20. The frame broke at the steering box mount. 

I could have welded it up but... it was thin everywhere else important too.


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## Mike Fromme (Oct 21, 2015)

I went through this as well this year. I had a 99 v10 f350 for 16 years. It's not near as bad as the interwebz make it out. Never had any major complaints. The frame was the issue I'm actually surprised it passed inspection the last few years. I think waiting until a snow storm and showing up for an inspection with the underneath dripping snow helps 

After looking at many 10-15 year old trucks most of the fords had frame rot and most of the gm trucks had rocker and cab corners that needed work. The dodges were just about gone from rust.

I ended up with a chevy 6.0 2500 hd crew cab that had been garaged and fluid filmed every year. It's got a 175k miles but even after a lot of new parts and tires and having a body shop fix the cab corners and rockers I'm into it for less than 10k. It should go another 100 to 150k miles without to much trouble.

And I just found a bigger idiot to buy my 99 for $3500! (It's insepcted till March and he needed a truck for the winter)


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## bholler (Oct 24, 2015)

Mike Fromme said:


> I went through this as well this year. I had a 99 v10 f350 for 16 years. It's not near as bad as the interwebz make it out.


no they actually were not a bad motor but expensive to work on and pretty bad on gas.  But they run good and have tons of power.


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## bad news (Oct 26, 2015)

Bad on gas compared to what?  My crew cab 4x4 V10 F250 turns in 13 mpg pretty steady (13.1, 13.2, etc) empty.  That's 1-2 mpg worse than a 5.4 truck and several mpg better than the 460 it replaced (which it makes 80 hp more than).  All three are hard on fuel while loaded, but the V10 outpulls the others handily.  Maintenance costs are comparable and reasonably affordable compared to a modern diesel.


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## bholler (Oct 27, 2015)

bad news said:


> Bad on gas compared to what?


my 5.8 until i put lower gears in it.  Before i switched the gears i was getting 15 to 16 now i am about the same as you but it is much better in the woods which is really what i use it for most of the time.  I do think the v10 got a bad wrap really but the fact is it is not a desirable motor because of that the prices are lower than the v8s at least around here that is the case.


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## 2broke2ride (Nov 11, 2015)

ironpony said:


> those old straight sixes were bullet proof, remember the "leaning tower of power" in the Dodges? 225 slant six. Never seen one of those blow up.


Still driving one of those [emoji4]


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## heavy hammer (Nov 14, 2015)

Fix yours I have a 96 3/4 ton dodge 12 valve cummins overhauled tranny at 335 k had rear end rebuilt at 360k have almost 370k on her best truck ever not telling you to get dodge just trying to say fix yours you know the truck how it runs how it works getting something else is nice but old girl like that will run forever.


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## Snagdaddy (Nov 14, 2015)

Got to keep the truck frames coated with bar and chain oil to prevent rust.  Use an air sprayer if you want but don't breathe the mist, put on a respirator.  A few winters with bar and chain oil on the frame, brake lines (never replaced one)  and underbody will turn you into a believer.  A wise person once asked me if I have ever seen a rusty chainsaw chain.  

I still own the 1999 ford ranger I bought new.  Only the rocker panels are starting to go - now I put bar oil in them too.  The frame is impressive, considering northeast daily driver conditions.  The 3.0 liter vulcan v6 engine is weak but it has lasted an awful long time and runs as good as new.  Overall the vehicle has been good enough for my 5 cord a year needs for the last 16 years.

The details:
1999 ford ranger 4X4
Home made headache rack with expanded metal protecting the entire rear window
manual 5 speed mazda trans, manual rugged ridge locking hubs - pulse vac hubs junked
"the Shiftster" Manual transfer case actuator - replaces the crappy transfer case shift motor
a/c system ripped out for extended engine life
aluminum rims discarded, steel rims installed
never needed a new clutch!  but will soon
new HD rear springs and a front end redone at home
sorry no pic.  not worth the look anyway.


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## Kool_hand_Looke (Nov 15, 2015)

Can't believe it took this long for someone to mention the 6.0 Powerstroke being a piece of crap. I'm a Ford guy, love my 08 6.4...but you couldn't give me a 6.0. I'm with you. 


Get Wood said:


> I can tell you what not to buy and that is a Ford 6.0 diesel.  It was an expensive lesson for me.  They put this junk in their trucks from 2003 to 2007.
> I didn't do enough research but that is the last dollar Ford will ever get from me.


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## The Weimar (Nov 16, 2015)

If you are into Fords, check this link out....It should clear up a lot of the misconceptions about which "powerstroke" is the "best"...
I own a 2001 F550 and a 2003 F350, both with 7.3's. They are great truck/motors but, ride rough (solid front axle) and are prone to rust.



The Weimar


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## bad news (Nov 16, 2015)

If it's a truck, it's prone to rust.


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## The Weimar (Nov 16, 2015)

Hey Bad News,  I agree with what you are saying but that is not exactly what I meant. I see you are from up here so you know what the salt and Mag Chloride does to the vehicles. I have had GM's my whole life and I have never seen a truck rust like a 1999 and up Ford Super duty. I went out one morning and it was like a thief had stolen the cab corners right off my F550. The bed on my F350 has no wheel wells or floor left in it... Never had a Chevy or GMC corrode like one of these trucks. I guess I meant "prone to disappear" not just rust.


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## hankjrfan (Dec 5, 2015)

The best bang for buck in used trucks imo is 80-97 F Series Trucks.  Believe 87 was the last year for carbs so may as well go for 88 or up.   There's tons of these things still out there on the roads as daily drivers.  I see more 9th generation F series still out there than 10th.  
They are hard on the gas but you already knew that with the 86.


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## Mike Fromme (Dec 5, 2015)

hankjrfan said:


> The best bang for buck in used trucks imo is 80-97 F Series Trucks.  Believe 87 was the last year for carbs so may as well go for 88 or up.   There's tons of these things still out there on the roads as daily drivers.  I see more 9th generation F series still out there than 10th.
> They are hard on the gas but you already knew that with the 86.


Want to know how I know you don't live in the north east?


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## 2broke2ride (Dec 5, 2015)

Mike Fromme said:


> Want to know how I know you don't live in the north east?


This is true lol


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## firefighterjake (Dec 5, 2015)

Mike Fromme said:


> Want to know how I know you don't live in the north east?



Two words . . .


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## D9H (Dec 5, 2015)

firefighterjake said:


> Two words . . .



Sea salt?

I don't know, I'm from Colorado.


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## hankjrfan (Dec 5, 2015)

I'm in the midwest and I'd imagine any of them would rust out further north.  Curious to know how the F series would be any extra susceptible though.  

But bondo and paint keep away what we do get.  The red 2wd in the back gets painted rustoleum about every third year.  The blue one is still living on factory paint and needs a bondo job on the fender.  Someone tried to stuff some kind of putty in there.  Didn't notice it until ripping the fender trim off during the wood retrieving.

They're cheap, a guys not afraid to put a dent on them out in the woods.  4x4 for 1500 bucks 100k original miles is tough to beat.  Not hard to find deals like that on the 9th gen F 1/250's.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 6, 2015)

D9H said:


> Sea salt?
> 
> I don't know, I'm from Colorado.



Close  . . . I was thinking "road salt".


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## Mike Fromme (Dec 6, 2015)

hankjrfan said:


> I'm in the midwest and I'd imagine any of them would rust out further north.  Curious to know how the F series would be any extra susceptible though.
> 
> But bondo and paint keep away what we do get.  The red 2wd in the back gets painted rustoleum about every third year.  The blue one is still living on factory paint and needs a bondo job on the fender.  Someone tried to stuff some kind of putty in there.  Didn't notice it until ripping the fender trim off during the wood retrieving.
> 
> ...


It's not fords in particular or the cold and snow. It's the constant freeze/thaw cycles we get living on the coast in the north. The roads are constantly covered with salt.

After 15 years the frames on most trucks are pretty rotted and there's not much of the body left to bondo.


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## greg13 (Dec 6, 2015)

Mike Fromme said:


> It's not fords in particular or the cold and snow. It's the constant freeze/thaw cycles we get living on the coast in the north. The roads are constantly covered with salt.
> 
> After 15 years the frames on most trucks are pretty rotted and there's not much of the body left to bondo.



It's not just the coast, There is a reason that Syracuse is called "the Salt city"


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## D8Chumley (Dec 6, 2015)

Kool_hand_Looke said:


> Can't believe it took this long for someone to mention the 6.0 Powerstroke being a piece of crap. I'm a Ford guy, love my 08 6.4...but you couldn't give me a 6.0. I'm with you.


My favorite truck was my 04 F250 CC King Ranch 6.0. If it had the V 10 I would still own it, couldn't afford to keep that 6.0 running and it only had 145k on it. At least you could pull the heads on the 6.0 without taking the cab off, don't think that's doable with the 6.4 is it?


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## The Weimar (Dec 6, 2015)

Up here the Solar Salt (road salt) is 25% of the problem. The roads and the salt gets pre-treated with Magnesium Chloride, which speeds up the rate of oxidation of any metal, especially those with an electrical current in them, by something in the neighborhood of 1000% !!. The MassDOT had to repair the entire fleet a few years back because the water on the roads found its way into the headlight wiring harness, and proceeded to eat its way through the copper, all the way to the switch. Dodges, Chevys, GMCs and Fords; they all rust, it just seems like the 99-2005 F super duty's are the worst of the bunch.


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## Longstreet (Dec 7, 2015)

Mike Fromme said:


> Want to know how I know you don't live in the north east?



http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/weekend-update-buford-calloway/n45830

So many great lines.  New Hampshire Cocaine...devils dandruff...killing his neighbor.  Got to be one of the best SNL skits ever.


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## Blowingsmokeupyourchimney (Jan 19, 2016)

I really liked my 1971 one ton (1310) International pickup.  I wish they still made a pickup, like to see a dt466 put into one.  The 345 was a good engine and pretty good on gas.


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