# Need to lower my electric bill!



## laynes69 (Dec 29, 2013)

I'm currently at a total loss, our electric bill seems like it's too high. I don't know the exact cost, but we are on a lower cost for the winter time. We have an 80 gallon electric water heater, and a 3/4 hp well pump. We use the heated drying option on our dishwasher, and we run an electric blanket each night (my wife is always cold). The blower on our wood furnace is a 1/3 hp 4 speed blower, and we have a chest freezer and a refrigerator freezer. We do have a lot of tech devices charging like tablets and iPods, and 2 outside security lights( 20.00 a month). When we first bought our home, I had electric bills around 100.00 (8 years ago). Now our electric bill has been around 190.00 a month. I've checked the points on the pump, I've turned down the water heater, I tried shutting off the charging devices at night, and nothing seems to reduce it. It's higher now than when we ran a window a/c unit this summer. Any thoughts, any places to look at. It looks like our usage is down from last year, but we keep getting slapped with this high bill.


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## homebrewz (Dec 29, 2013)

In your list of electricity users, the bigger use items are the refrigerators, freezers, and water heater, the lowest use items will be the electronic gear. One thing you can try, is to keep the electronics and chargers on a strip (they should be on a static discharge/anti-spike strip anyway) and turn it off at night. 
If you want to pinpoint high usage items, there are devices which measure the current draw, sold under trade names like the "Kill-O-Watt". There are several threads that talk about them. I'd be curious to know the usage of the electric blanket.. a really nice down comforter might be a better investment. 

Also, if you still have a lot of incandescent lights, that can be a big draw. Look into upgrading to CFL's or LED's. My bill dropped about $20/month when I went to mostly CFL's. Though, I first bought some that were this harsh blue (natural daylight?) and I didn't like them. Picked up some other models which give off a softer light. They make some pretty decent LED flood lights now.


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## laynes69 (Dec 29, 2013)

When we first bought our home, there was about 12 water leaks which was causing the pump to run almost non stop.  We fixed those of course, and the bill went down compared to their usage. We also removed around 30 incandescent bulbs and put in CFL's before moving in.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 29, 2013)

80 Gallon water heater WOW I use a 30 Gal for 5-7 people. Never run out. We have 5 people all the time and up to 7 intermittently. My teenage daughter already takes 30-45 min showers. DO i want to lengthen that by putting in a larger WH ? Not a chance. Only  LED and CFL lighting, 2 refrigerators, 1 chest freezer, 3 tvs, 5 computers,electric dryer 20 loads a week. Energy star washer,20 loads a week. My bill averages $130 a month. THis month a little higher with 2000 Xmas lights going for a month


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## laynes69 (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, it was free from the local co-op around 10 years ago. I keep it flushed to remove any sediment and try to stay on top of the elements. I know there's something here that's causing our high electric bills, but I can't figure it out. We had a 30 gallon water heater in the old house and we always ran out of hot water. I've also put in low flow fixtures throughout the house.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 29, 2013)

laynes69 said:


> We had a 30 gallon water heater in the old house and we always ran out of hot water. I've also put in low flow fixtures throughout the house.


Lo-flow helps a lot. I never ran out but my daughter does and thats OK with me. The perfect way to conserve and not waste HW. Our showers are usually at different times and most of our appliances are Energy star (washer ,dishwasher) with their own HW heaters built in as both have steam and hi-temp features.


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## jebatty (Dec 29, 2013)

What is your actual kwh usage per month? What is the rate you pay per kwh? If your bill has about doubled in the last 8 years, that's about par IMO. Electric rates go up, a fact of energy cost. Do you have any electric space heaters? Electric clothes dryer? Other electric heat appliances?


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## laynes69 (Dec 29, 2013)

We used 1300 Kwh's this month. 1,000 Kwh's were at .099 and the next 300 Kwh's were at .076. We had a 31.00 distribution charge , a .013 adjustment factor on the 1300 Kwh's, with a 18.00 charge with 2 security lights.

I looked back into 2005's records, and the electric rates then were 2 cents lower per kWh. It looks like we should be around 1100 Kwh's based on previous years. Even previous years the rates were higher but the electric bills were lower.  Usage varies between 900-1200 Kwh's throughout the year. Just seems like something is hiking usage and I can't find it. I've been trying to track it down for some time now.

I forgot, we have an electric water heater, and our well pump. The stove, dryer, furnace is gas. We have 3 cell phones, a laptop, a tablet and 4 iPods. Our tv is a rear projection 57" TV, which I read doesn't use much energy and we occasionally run a dehumidifier. The only other cost we might have is the woodfurnace, which runs quite a bit, and it's a 1/3 hp. We have no space heaters, or other things like that.


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## 1750 (Dec 29, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I never ran out but my daughter does and thats OK with me.


Amen, brother.   Nothing else I've found gets the ladies out of the shower.


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## Former Farmer (Dec 29, 2013)

Did you have more people over than normal?  I know this adds up quickly on our electric usage as you have many more lights on than normal.

Check your heating elements in your water heater.  They may be covered with calcium deposits and not able to heat the water as efficiently as new ones.

Also listen to see if your freezers and refrigerator are not running constantly.  You may have a low pressure on the refrigerant on one of those appliances.


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## Where2 (Dec 29, 2013)

Just the fan in my dehumidifier is ~50W to circulate air. When the compressor kicks in and actually does work to create a temperature differential to dehumidify the air, it draws ~725W. 5hrs/day  = 3.6kWh/day

Heating one gallon of water 70°F requires 0.17kWh. If your house goes through 60 gallons/day, that's just over 10kWh/day.


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## Ehouse (Dec 29, 2013)

The service charge seems to rise right along with the charge for electricty.  

Unless you keep your freezer packed full all the time, you might get away with a bottom pull out freezer/fridge. That's a move we're looking to make.


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## laynes69 (Dec 29, 2013)

As I'm sitting in the kitchen, I'm hearing the fridge running. I did turn on the dehumidifier for a couple days because water came into the basement and I didn't fire the woodfurnace, it was too warm. I have 3 kids, and it's a struggle sometimes to keep lights off in the house. Sometimes it looks like a hotel lit up. That's why I opted for CFL's. Our chest freezer is almost full most of the time. It very well could be our fridge, it seems to run most of the time. I need to buy a kill o watt meter and keep and eye on things. If it is the fridge, I don't want to tell my wife. She want a fancy side by side $$$ lol. I did recently replace a suspect water heater element that I'm pretty sure was bad. Maybe I should test the other one.


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## 1kzwoman (Dec 29, 2013)

Is you well pump running on 110 or 220? It will take a "sparky" to explain why may be needs to be 220


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## laynes69 (Dec 29, 2013)

It's running on 110, it's been that way for a number of years. I do notice when it kicks in, it will dim the lights a little.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 29, 2013)

Grab your last electric bill to see how much you are actually using.  It might be that you are just paying a heck of a lot more per kwh than you used to.  Once you find your bill you can see if your actual usage is more than the average house which is something like 900kwh.  Knowing if your usage is average doesn't help when the bill comes in, but it's a place to start.   

Pick up one of these:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kill-A-Watt-Electricity-Monitor-P4400/202196386#

You can get them all over the place.  I picked one up at Harbor Freight a few years ago.

Figure out how much each appliance uses.  Decide if it's worth it for you.  Wall worts, like cell phone chargers are little draws that add up if you aren't careful.  We unplug or switch off most of the draws in our house.  For 220 volt appliances like the water heater, you can buy timers to shut them off during the day when nobody is home.  

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-40-Am...=202788247&ci_kw=&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969#


This gives you a way to start figuring out where the electrons are going.  

Good luck!


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## laynes69 (Dec 29, 2013)

In a post above, I explained some of this. I've gone thru my electric usage since 2005, and my usage has been between 900 and 1100 Kwh's. If I'm running the AC then I would expect a higher bill, but not having that many large electrical loads (dryer,stove) it seems awfully high. Rates have gone up, but not by more than a few cents since 2005.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 30, 2013)

Kill-a -watt meter is about $20 ,well worth the cost. Ck each appliance. It wont work on the water heater though. Some older WHs can use a LOT of juice for some reason.  One of my new energy star 20 CU Ft refrigerators only uses about 1Kw a day ,about 10c.


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## woodgeek (Dec 30, 2013)

I would start with the big stuff like the water heater and the well pump.  You can buy a clamp-on ammeter to measure the current draw without breaking the circuit.  IF the well pump is 120V, I would patch it through a Kill-A-Watt.  Anything using that much juice is making heat.  You should be able to track it down by putting hands on stuff, or even seeing which rooms are too warm.  A malfunctioning pump down a hole, though, can shed a lot of energy stealthily.

Some libraries have Kill-A-Watts you can check out....I would start with the entertainment center...cable/DVR box, older HD TV, etc.  My wifi rig uses ~0.5 kWh/day, and it is an 'efficient' model.

All the handheld electronics you mentioned, and their chargers will be less than 0.2 kWh/day in TOTAL, don't worry about that.  Modern phone/tablet chargers have very low standby losses (most use DC-DC converters, rather than magnetic transformers).  A lot of folks are wasting a lot of effort chasing non-existent vampire loads there, IMO.

In my case....during my family summer vacation, my smart meter reports my house uses 10 kWh/day, with noone in it and no AC. I can justify maybe 3-4 kWh/day.  I need to go sleuthing for the rest.


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## boo boo (Dec 30, 2013)

Have you cleaned the coils on your refrigerator and freezer lately?
Any new hair dryers and flat irons in the house? Few years back my nice moved in for a few months and I could see the 15 to 17 a month spike and then dropped when she left.

The 25 watt light bulb my wife leaves on in the basement for the cats drives me nuts.


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## laynes69 (Dec 30, 2013)

I haven't cleaned the coils, actually I've never cleaned them, never gave it a thought. I will now though. No hair dryers or irons. I did get a Bunn coffee maker, but that's been a while ago. I know it cost maybe a couple of dollars a month, but wouldn't trade it for the world.


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## 1750 (Dec 30, 2013)

While you are in the mode to pull heavy appliances away from walls... cleaning your dryer vent can have a favorable effect, as well.   In addition to significantly shortening drying times if it's plugged with residual lint, it also is supposed to reduce risk of fire.

Good luck!


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## laynes69 (Dec 30, 2013)

1750 said:


> While you are in the mode to pull heavy appliances away from walls... cleaning your dryer vent can have a favorable effect, as well.   In addition to significantly shortening drying times if it's plugged with residual lint, it also is supposed to reduce risk of fire.
> 
> Good luck!


 
That's one thing that I do. I tear down the dryer twice a year to clean it out. I've been in a couple house fires (not from dryers). Most things like that I try to maintain.


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## Dave K (Dec 30, 2013)

Great thread, a lot of good info here.  

I just bought a house, and I'm adjusting to the higher energy bills.  Its double what I used to pay for a 1 bedroom apartment.  But seeing how many KWH's other people use I think I am doing fairly well.  

For October's billing cycle I used 545 KWH and for November it was 604 KWH.  
I'm very curious to see how Decembers bill looks because of all the Christmas lights.


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## 1750 (Dec 30, 2013)

boo boo said:


> Have you cleaned the coils on your refrigerator and freezer lately?


Just an FYI for any of you inspired by this thread (as I was) to clean your coils... 

You might want to check your manual before doing this.   I muscled the great beast away from the wall only to discover that the coils are underneath, accessible by a panel in the front.   Had I ever cleaned them before, I would know this... suffice it to say that with the amount of crud I liberated from the coils, this will draw a few less watts going forward.

Also, if your vacuum filter gets changed as frequently as ours apparently does... it's time to clean that puppy, too!


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## woodgeek (Dec 30, 2013)

While cleaning refrigerator coils is a fine idea....no studies have shown it to significantly reduce energy usage by refrigerators.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/more-energy-myths


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## 1750 (Dec 30, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> While cleaning refrigerator coils is a fine idea....no studies have shown it to significantly reduce energy usage by refrigerators.
> 
> http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/more-energy-myths


Doh!   Now you tell me. 

Here I was feeling all conservative for a change.   Alas.

That's a great article.   I have subscribed to a number of those myths in times past.

But not anymore, Woodgeek... not anymore.


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## woodgeek (Dec 30, 2013)

Here's more dirty coil porn:
http://www.homeenergy.org/show/article/nav/appliances/page/15/id/914
Seems like cleaning will make a 0-5% improvement, at least in older units.


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 30, 2013)

It has to let more air over the coil.  I try to get to mine once a year.  With a dog and kid there's always something to clean off of it.


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## boo boo (Dec 30, 2013)

EatenByLimestone said:


> It has to let more air over the coil.  I try to get to mine once a year.  With a dog and kid there's always something to clean off of it.


 That would be a good thread. Pic`s of what I found under my refrigerator! The last time for me it was cheerios and cat toys and a lot of cat hair and dust. No money


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## woodgeek (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm quite afraid to look


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2013)

laynes69 said:


> Yeah, it was free from the local co-op around 10 years ago. I keep it flushed to remove any sediment and try to stay on top of the elements. I know there's something here that's causing our high electric bills, but I can't figure it out. We had a 30 gallon water heater in the old house and we always ran out of hot water. I've also put in low flow fixtures throughout the house.


I pulled the 80 gallon water heater and changed it for a well insulated, 40 gallon, fast recovery unit. That made a substantial improvement in the bottom line.


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## Wolftech (Dec 30, 2013)

Putting all those phantom loads (that blinking vcr/dvd, tv box, the surround sound system)  on a Outlet strip has dropped my bill....


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## TradEddie (Dec 30, 2013)

We've got two kids, electric water heater, lots of laundry all going through the electric dryer, and everybody loves long showers (with flow restrictors removed) and our winter consumption is about 800 kwh per month. Last year we discovered a leak in our well pump piping, after two months of huge bills. A kill-a-watt is useful but you can't use it for hard-wired items like water heaters, well pumps, or septic pumps. Kill the breaker on your well pump, does the line hold pressure, listen at the well head, is it running constantly? Same for any septic pumps, the floats could be faulty. I don't know what the difference in 80gal vs smaller water heater would be, but we've only once run our 50 gallon heater cold.

I've switched out most incandescents for LEDs or CFLs, but it hasn't made a noticeable difference, probably just offsetting the increased consumption by the kids as they grow.
My next step in reducing bills is a better washer and dryer, almost 40% of my bill is hot water and dryer (they're on a legacy separate meter, so I can see their consumption).

TE


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## TradEddie (Dec 30, 2013)

laynes69 said:


> and 2 outside security lights( 20.00 a month).


That's a lot of unnecessary light, at 10c/kwh, that's 100W of lighting for almost 7 hours every night. $20/month is a huge waste, get some motion activated lights, or LED's, or even halogens in there, quick.



laynes69 said:


> The only other cost we might have is the woodfurnace, which runs quite a bit, and it's a 1/3 hp.



A whole house furnace fan, or a woodstove blower? The former I hope, otherwise you need to get a new stove blower.

TE


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## laynes69 (Dec 30, 2013)

Our security lights light our side yard at night, and our bank barn mid way back in the property. While I would like to not pay 20.00 a month, they are on a separate line and they help me at night when I'm outside, and help to deter thieves. I live amongst nothing but farmland and woods, in a very rural area. My nearest neighbor is over a 1/4 mile away, only 1 neighbor I can see in the distance.

As far as a well leak, I'm not too sure. The line was replaced 10 years ago with a solid plastic line to the house. I've replaced the points in the past because they've burnt out. I did put in higher pressure points, but the pump seems okay with it. I do know here lately if we're running water for a bath and the toilet is flushed, the well will stop producing water. We then have to wait for a couple minutes and eventually it comes back. It's only about 60 or so feet deep and is pretty old. I've been out there before to make sure it's not running when not in use and it wasn't. There's lots of good ideas and things to check on.

Our fan is on our wood furnace. We keep the basement warm along with the 2 floors above with it.


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## TradEddie (Dec 30, 2013)

I'd check the pump again, also the bladder tank after what you said about the pump not being able to keep up. A short cycling pump would certainly burn through the kwh. Bladders are easy to check, google is your friend.

I'm not saying you don't need those lights, peace of mind is worth far more than $20/mo, but you could have all that same light for much less by investing in some LED's. Constant use is where those bulbs really pay off, I keep two Cree 60W-equivalents with an on-at-dusk-off-at-dawn sensor, those cost about 50c a month to run 8 hours each night.

TE


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2013)

Good suggestion on the air bladder tank. Check the pressure there. If low you are going to burn out pressure switches and relay points and have a short cycling pump.


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2013)

I put in a new 80 gallon hot water heater a year & a half ago. Heated by wood most of the year, but in the summer months when it isn't it only adds about $20 or so per month to the light bill (@ 0.16/khw). 2 adults & 3 kids - one a teenage girl.

If it's the heater, it's likely the age of it & not the size that's using the juice. More insulation? Heat traps on the lines? Feel your lines to see if there is heat creeping out of it when it's not being used - maybe first thing in the morning before people start using hot water.


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## Ashful (Dec 31, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> 80 Gallon water heater WOW I use a 30 Gal for 5-7 people. Never run out. We have 5 people all the time and up to 7 intermittently. My teenage daughter already takes 30-45 min showers.


I have trouble believing this.  "Never run out" with 5-7 people, and "45 minute showers," simply do not compute with a single 30 gal water heater.


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## sloeffle (Dec 31, 2013)

laynes,

I am about in the same boat that you are in except my house is all electric. I have changed most of the lights, new Marathon hot water heater, change air filters frequently on the furnace, newer mostly energy star appliances and heat my house mostly with wood in the winter or a very efficient geo unit and on average we use around 1000 - 1500KHW depending on the time of the year. I thought about buying a monitoring system but I have a hard time justifying 600$ for it.

I bought an amp clamp and once the weather turns warmer I am planning on double checking everything in the barn and the house. Possibly a phantom load ?

Scott


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2013)

I just paid our bi-monthly power bill today. October 23 to December 19, my bill says we averaged 20.9 kwh/day. I'm feeling pretty good about that, since I know we have areas we can improve on yet. One thing is an older CRT TV that was hooked to a PS3 and on for several hours a day. It is being replaced by a smaller LED that showed under our tree last week. The other thing is our Kenmore fridge - it's 18 years old and I'm sure is using more than a new one would. It's been heavily abused & is showing signs of air leakage around the edges. But with our bill that good, or what I consider pretty good for us, I'm hesitant to garbage an appliance that seems to still be working good.

I hope it won't be for a few years yet, but when our 80 gallon hot water heater eventually goes kaput, it will be replaced with a heat pump unit of some sort.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 31, 2013)

Joful said:


> I have trouble believing this.  "Never run out" with 5-7 people, and "45 minute showers," simply do not compute with a single 30 gal water heater.


I did say my daughter who is the one who takes the 45 Min showers does run out. Im not about to buy a larger WH so she can shower for an hour+.  I personally never ran out, but then again i dont try to shower right after my daughter. The rest of us take normal showers and dont run out. I replaced this WH about 3 times in 25 years and if i had to do it again today id get the same size. Also our washer and dishwasher both have their own built in WH so that helps.


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2013)

I suggest everyone taking a shower before your daughter  and let her get cold water after 10 minutes. 45 minutes in the shower with the water running is very wasteful.


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> I suggest everyone taking a shower before your daughter  and let her get cold water after 10 minutes. 45 minutes in the shower with the water running is very wasteful.


I've turned the hot water off on my teenage sons mid-shower.  They just keep going.  
Maybe they understand the benefits of a cold shower.


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

boo boo said:


> That would be a good thread. Pic`s of what I found under my refrigerator! The last time for me it was cheerios and cat toys and a lot of cat hair and dust. No money


We have three dogs and a cat in addition to the humans.
When we bought our last fridge I actually used condenser airflow direction as one of the criteria. 
I found one unit that pulled air in the back and exhausted out the bottom.  I also put a filter on the rear intake. 
Going on about 4 years now I've cleaned the filter yearly but the condenser is staying clean.
It didn't hurt that the fridge I liked also had the cool ramp-up LED light inside that my wife liked.


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## woodgeek (Dec 31, 2013)

With an 80 gallon HPWH, my 13 yo daughter gets a 45 minute shower using only 40% as much energy as if we had a conventional tank.  And there is still water afterward for anyone else who wants to take a shower.


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## woodgeek (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> We have three dogs and a cat in addition to the humans.
> When we bought our last fridge I actually used condenser airflow direction as one of the criteria.
> I found one unit that pulled air in the back and exhausted out the bottom.  I also put a filter on the rear intake.
> Going on about 4 years now I've cleaned the filter yearly but the condenser is staying clean.
> It didn't hurt that the fridge I liked also had the cool ramp-up LED light inside that my wife liked.



Did you verify that the consumption didn't go up because of the filter reducing airflow?


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

I installed one of those whole house energy monitors that clamps around each of the power lines to the house in the panel and then has a display in the living room. It is a great tool to watch and monitor your actual consumption. I burn up over 1000 kwh each month and I blame the electric hot tub mostly.

What I found odd was that the base load is always a couple of hundred watts. You don't realize it until you do a breaker by breaker shutoff but the parasites are things like GFCI receptacles and appliance phantom loads like my modern electric oven burning 50 watts all the time.

The whole house monitor was only like 100 or 150 bucks and has been a great source of entertainment and even cost savings via behavioral changes. The kids even watch it to see who left a light on.


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## Ashful (Dec 31, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> I installed one of those whole house energy monitors that clamps around each of the power lines to the house in the panel and then has a display in the living room.


Brand/model?  I would be interested in a recommendation.


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Did you verify that the consumption didn't go up because of the filter reducing airflow?


Interesting thought but no.  Based on how dirty it gets and how open the mesh is its hard to imagine its creating much restriction.  I was mainly targeting animal hair so didn't think that a "tight" filter was needed.

I do have a Kill-a-watt sitting sitting idly in a drawer in the garage though....


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> I suggest everyone taking a shower before your daughter  and let her get cold water after 10 minutes. 45 minutes in the shower with the water running is very wasteful.


Shower cut-off timers are available . 
http://www.showermanager.com/conservation-store/shower-timer-home.shtml


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

Joful said:


> Brand/model?  I would be interested in a recommendation.


I think there have been some good related threads here on that.  If I recall correctly, the TED came out as a local favorite.  
http://www.theenergydetective.com/

I've got a Black and Decker monitor but would like something with data logging and export capability.


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## blades (Dec 31, 2013)

If you have any under ground lines which are not on the security system lights mighT want to check those for bleeding.  I had a lamp post light that somewhere along the line developed a leak to earth. didn't know a thing about until we had a very heavy rain storm off and on for several days. I happened to be walking barefoot  a small distance away from the light and my what a tingling I got.  The line got chewed up some at a connection of 2 pieces of conduit. it was bleeding there but not breaking the breaker for that series of circuits that it was tied into.  I also had a bad netrual line coming into the house from the utility pole connection to my meter in another dwelling which was adding costs to the bill there as well, not mention playing havoc with electronics.

The add on charges  for all kinds of things are getting quite ridiculous, Oct to Nov  gas portion of my utility bill was $5.xx for the gas used but there was over $11  of add on charges tacked to it. My electric add on charges exceeded that. both have sections that are based on $x amount for facilities and distribution  times energy used. The abosolute minimum I could possibly get to would be about $18 and that would be with no energy usage at all.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> I think there have been some good related threads here on that.  If I recall correctly, the TED came out as a local favorite.
> http://www.theenergydetective.com/
> 
> I've got a Black and Decker monitor but would like something with data logging and export capability.


 
I believe mine is an efergy, it has data logging and export capability via a usb port but I am not THAT into it. It is easy to recognize the various loads after you get used to them. The water heater at 4500 watts is easy to see for example.

I'll try and dig up a link.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

Joful said:


> Brand/model?  I would be interested in a recommendation.


 
http://www.amazon.com/Efergy-E2-Wireless-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B003XOZG0Y/ref=pd_sim_hi_3

This is the one I have. It has been very good. I have only used it on the main line so far but I could choose to log a single device instead, like the blood sucking hot tub. Easy install, just clamping the clamps around wires without removing wires from the panel or breakers. Much like a clamp on ampmeter.

Only bummer is that it samples every 6 seconds vs. instantaneously. Not a big deal.


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## woodgeek (Dec 31, 2013)

Highbeam....I just ordered one!  I've had a couple of the BlueLine-type Black and Decker ones over the years...but they both had lousy RF reception (so I couldn't walk around with them) then one died, and then I got a smart meter that is incompatible with them.  The smart meter is lo-res enough to not be useful for tracking stuff down.  Of course.

I figure my phantom loads are at least 5 kWh/day higher than they should be....that's 1600 kWh and $200/year.

Will report back!


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Efergy-E2-Wireless-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B003XOZG0Y/ref=pd_sim_hi_3
> 
> This is the one I have. It has been very good. I have only used it on the main line so far but I could choose to log a single device instead, like the blood sucking hot tub. Easy install, just clamping the clamps around wires without removing wires from the panel or breakers. Much like a clamp on ampmeter.
> 
> Only bummer is that it samples every 6 seconds vs. instantaneously. Not a big deal.


I'm looking for a better one also. 
The Efergy looks interesting.  Do you happen to know what it reports every 6 seconds (max, min, average, instantaneous)? 
I was thinking of our well pump and HVAC systems and the start up loads they create.  

I saw also that Fluke has a nice looking monitor.  Bet its pricey though.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> I'm looking for a better one also.
> The Efergy looks interesting.  Do you happen to know what it reports every 6 seconds (max, min, average, instantaneous)?
> I was thinking of our well pump and HVAC systems and the start up loads they create.
> 
> I saw also that Fluke has a nice looking monitor.  Bet its pricey though.


 
At the report intervals (every 6 or so seconds) it samples current flow. Instantaneuous. You will only see the surge loads if the sample happens to catch it. I've seen it on refrigerators but that's it. I would not buy this as a tool to determine surge loads or inrush currents. The machine logs these samples and produces averages and daily totals. I am interested in daily as well as instantaneous readings and really don't get excited about downloading the data and logging it.


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## maple1 (Dec 31, 2013)

About the Efergy (or similar): do the leads need to be clamped onto bare stripped wire, or can they get a reading from wire that hasn't been stripped? Like just upstream of the junction connection point.

Would make it a lot easier to put on, say, an electric hot water heater - or other hard wired thing -  if so.

Neat looking gadget - just might have to get me one.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 31, 2013)

I think people forget that, at the beginning of those 30-45 Min showers the 4500 watt element starts and you are getting some recovery. I think the average 30 Gal HW heater give at least 40-50 gallons of usable water before going completely cold  The you have the cold water that you are adding to factor in.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> I suggest everyone taking a shower before your daughter  and let her get cold water after 10 minutes. 45 minutes in the shower with the water running is very wasteful.


Which is exactly why i have no interest in installing a larger unit.
Suffice to say no one takes a shower AFTER her for awhile.


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## woodgeek (Dec 31, 2013)

maple1 said:


> About the Efergy (or similar): do the leads need to be clamped onto bare stripped wire, or can they get a reading from wire that hasn't been stripped? Like just upstream of the junction connection point.
> 
> Would make it a lot easier to put on, say, an electric hot water heater - or other hard wired thing -  if so.
> 
> Neat looking gadget - just might have to get me one.



Looks like the efegy is a magnetic clamp on.  You have to go into the box, but you don't have to break the circuit or the insulation.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> Shower cut-off timers are available .
> http://www.showermanager.com/conservation-store/shower-timer-home.shtml


Thats a great idea!


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## semipro (Dec 31, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats a great idea!


Get one for your daughter for the New Year!


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

maple1 said:


> About the Efergy (or similar): do the leads need to be clamped onto bare stripped wire, or can they get a reading from wire that hasn't been stripped? Like just upstream of the junction connection point.
> 
> Would make it a lot easier to put on, say, an electric hot water heater - or other hard wired thing -  if so.
> 
> Neat looking gadget - just might have to get me one.


 
As WG says, it's a clamp on. You clamp on to the fat, hot, insulated wires just before they hit the main breaker in your panel. There is plenty of room right on top of the main breaker in a regular panel to put the little rings in place. The clamp on pickup rings are routed out of the panel through a skinny wire that conveniently slips into the corner cutout of your panel can and under the cover so it's very easy. On the outside of the panel can, those little wires hit a trnasmitter box that you stick on the wall or whatever and it talks to the display unit wirelessly.

You could just as easily clamp the pickups around another circuit in the panel and monitor that circuit's consumption. Really fancy monitoring systems have several clamps and allow you to log as many circuits as you want. Sheesh, start with the main. This allows you to backcheck the meter readings if you think the utility is robbing you.


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## Highbeam (Dec 31, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I think people forget that, at the beginning of those 30-45 Min showers the 4500 watt element starts and you are getting some recovery. I think the average 30 Gal HW heater give at least 40-50 gallons of usable water before going completely cold  The you have the cold water that you are adding to factor in.


 
And you aren't showering in 120 degree water either. You are cutting the hot with cold so you are getting way more than 30 gallons of shower water.

What are the shower heads now, 1.5 gpm?


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> I think there have been some good related threads here on that.  If I recall correctly, the TED came out as a local favorite.
> http://www.theenergydetective.com/
> 
> I've got a Black and Decker monitor but would like something with data logging and export capability.



You need one that cuts off the shower and starts playing Mantovani tunes to really be effective.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> You need one that cuts off the shower and starts playing Mantovani tunes to really be effective.


That cold water coming out eventually is a pretty darn good deterrent.


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## Bret Chase (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> I've turned the hot water off on my teenage sons mid-shower.  They just keep going.
> Maybe they understand the benefits of a cold shower.



All 4 of my kids know my 10 minute time limit... after 10 mins.... the hot water valve has an "accident" and the water gets real cold, real fast. ;P  My HWH is oil... and I have never managed to outstrip it's recovery rate...


fwiw... my shower time averages 5 mins...


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## Bret Chase (Dec 31, 2013)

semipro said:


> We have three dogs and a cat in addition to the humans.
> When we bought our last fridge I actually used condenser airflow direction as one of the criteria.
> I found one unit that pulled air in the back and exhausted out the bottom.  I also put a filter on the rear intake.
> Going on about 4 years now I've cleaned the filter yearly but the condenser is staying clean.
> It didn't hurt that the fridge I liked also had the cool ramp-up LED light inside that my wife liked.



I've got a wife, 4 kids and 3 large dogs.....  it's AMAZING the amount of fur the dogs will shed.. and they're a dane/lab... hound/lab... and a who-the-hell-knows, but she has short fur too.  I have to sweep the kitchen at least once a day... I should probably do it 2 or 3x a day.... but.. you know...


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## Bret Chase (Dec 31, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> I installed one of those whole house energy monitors that clamps around each of the power lines to the house in the panel and then has a display in the living room. It is a great tool to watch and monitor your actual consumption. I burn up over 1000 kwh each month and I blame the electric hot tub mostly.
> 
> What I found odd was that the base load is always a couple of hundred watts. You don't realize it until you do a breaker by breaker shutoff but the parasites are things like GFCI receptacles and appliance phantom loads like my modern electric oven burning 50 watts all the time.
> 
> The whole house monitor was only like 100 or 150 bucks and has been a great source of entertainment and even cost savings via behavioral changes. The kids even watch it to see who left a light on.



 I do the same thing from time to time, but I use my clamp-on ammeter on each of the mains.  my static load seams to be fairly unbalanced...   I did move some breakers around... but haven't had a chance to re-check it after doubling the HP of my well pump..  I only have a 100 amp service.. and the only time I ever pup a breaker is when I try and fire up my table saw below 15F...


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## begreen (Dec 31, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> I've got a wife, 4 kids and 3 large dogs.....  it's AMAZING the amount of fur the dogs will shed.. and they're a dane/lab... hound/lab... and a who-the-hell-knows, but she has short fur too.  I have to sweep the kitchen at least once a day... I should probably do it 2 or 3x a day.... but.. you know...




My sister is a champion great dane breeder. She really knows her dogs, but computers are not her strength. Last time I visited her, her computer sounded like a 727 taking off. I opened the case and found the cpu buried under about an inch of dog and cat hair.


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## Bret Chase (Dec 31, 2013)

begreen said:


> My sister is a champion great dane breeder. She really knows her dogs, but computers are not her strength. Last time I visited her, her computer sounded like a 727 taking off. I opened the case and found the cpu buried under about an inch of dog and cat hair.



I took my Lenovo T60 apart again 2 days ago to blow out the fan and heat exchanger...  my wife's 'top is a Dell Netbook which she loves (and I hate).. it doesn't even have a fan that I can tell... it's Atom processor makes almost no heat.... and it's got a solid state HD (the only part of it I'm jealous of... that thing is FAST!!)


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## Bret Chase (Dec 31, 2013)

I typically use about 800kW/h.... 100 A service... oil HWH, gas range, wood heat, all non appliance lighting is CFL...  it wouldn't be all that bad if I wasn't get ***** to the tune of $0.15+ kW/h by the utility...


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## Where2 (Dec 31, 2013)

Highbeam said:


> What are the shower heads now, 1.5 gpm?



Standard heads are 2.5gpm. I've got a collection of basic Moen 2.5gpm units lying around waiting to be re-purposed.


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## DBoon (Jan 2, 2014)

I recently (within the last year) replaced my 20+ year old electric garage door opener, and I noticed an decrease in my monthly consumption.  I've read that newer units use about 5W standby and older units used 20-30W standby.  That difference can really add up in a month - 20 W/h for a month is 15 kWh per month.


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## Ashful (Jan 2, 2014)

DBoon said:


> I recently (within the last year) replaced my 20+ year old electric garage door opener, and I noticed an decrease in my monthly consumption.  I've read that newer units use about 5W standby and older units used 20-30W standby.  That difference can really add up in a month - 20 W/h for a month is 15 kWh per month.


14.6 kWh/month minus your new usage of 3.65 kWh/month = 11 kWh/month = $1.75 / month difference in your bill.  Is your electric usage really that consistent that you could see that decrease in your bill?  I mean, mine goes up and down by $100 from one month to the next.

Last month, despite using a lot more than our usual resistive electric heating (we had a guest staying in our guest suite, and there's resistive baseboard heating and a separate electric water heater in that bathroom), 20 amps worth of Christmas lights running 6 hours per night for most of the month, and our usual load of lights and refrigerators, we somehow had the lowest bill ever.  Both this bill and the previous were listed as "actual", not "estimated".  The only thing I figure, aside from someone making a very serious mistake in reading the meter, is we finally managed to "lap" the meter past the full count in one month.


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## semipro (Jan 2, 2014)

Joful said:


> 14.6 kWh/month minus your new usage of 3.65 kWh/month = 11 kWh/month = $1.75 / month difference in your bill.  Is your electric usage really that consistent that you could see that decrease in your bill?  I mean, mine goes up and down by $100 from one month to the next.
> 
> Last month, despite using a lot more than our usual resistive electric heating (we had a guest staying in our guest suite, and there's resistive baseboard heating and a separate electric water heater in that bathroom), 20 amps worth of Christmas lights running 6 hours per night for most of the month, and our usual load of lights and refrigerators, we somehow had the lowest bill ever.  Both this bill and the previous were listed as "actual", not "estimated".  The only thing I figure, aside from someone making a very serious mistake in reading the meter, is we finally managed to "lap" the meter past the full count in one month.


I've been confounded by this also, that people can measure the effects of mods based on utility bills.  Given changes in weather, occupancy, household habits, etc. I can't imagine using monthly electrical usage to gauge results.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2014)

These days with super low wattage light bulbs, I look at a 30 watt waste as three bright light bulbs on all the time. I would be barking at the kids to shut those dang lights off when that vampire load is chewing up so much light.

My whole power bill, even this time of year with that monster hot tub, all electric house, is 100$ per month. I wouldn't notice a 15 kwh change.  With each bill, the power company does provide last year's use for the same month as comparison along with outdoor temps. It is easy to see a change but probably not a tiny one like that.


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## PapaDave (Jan 2, 2014)

Our use is pretty consistent month to month, but I wouldn't be too concerned about an increase of a few Kwh.
We fairly consistently use about 300-350/month. Depending on the rate, our bill runs about $70-75, and that includes a monthly charge of $12 for a dusk to dawn yard light.
Fridge, upright 14 cu ft freezer, elec. stove/oven, elec dryer, big screen LCD tv, a couple laptops, and a few lights (most still cfl, but gradually moving to LED).
The only thing we use on a regular basis that's gas is the water heater and I have no idea how old the thing is.
I read my own meter.
When we first got here, we were using almost 3 times what we use now. Bad habits carried over from our lifestyle while still working.
ETA: That use drops a bit as the days get longer. Turning lights on at 5:00pm is just weird.


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## maple1 (Jan 2, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> These days with super low wattage light bulbs, I look at a 30 watt waste as three bright light bulbs on all the time. I would be barking at the kids to shut those dang lights off when that vampire load is chewing up so much light.
> 
> My whole power bill, even this time of year with that monster hot tub, all electric house, is 100$ per month. I wouldn't notice a 15 kwh change.  With each bill, the power company does provide last year's use for the same month as comparison along with outdoor temps. It is easy to see a change but probably not a tiny one like that.


 
Do I remember you doing some work last year in a similar thread trying to find where your juice was going? Sounds like you might have found it with the $100/mo current bill - what did you find back then? It wasn't the tub?


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Do I remember you doing some work last year in a similar thread trying to find where your juice was going? Sounds like you might have found it with the $100/mo current bill - what did you find back then? It wasn't the tub?


 
It was the tub. The tub costs me about 2$ per day.

The 100$ per month bill is a result of our 10 cent per kwh power. I am still using 1000 kwh per month which to me is very high considering I am 100% wood heat. I found no smoking gun. The majority of my non-hottub bill is water heating.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm pretty flat in my usage, but I wouldn't notice 15 kwh up or down.


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## Ashful (Jan 2, 2014)

Geez... our usage varies between 1600 and 2500 kWh per month, depending on who's home, house guests, and outside temperatures.  I suspect our biggest users are our dehumidifiers, of which we have three.  No way in hell I'm noticing a 15 kWh difference, intentional or otherwise.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 2, 2014)

My fridge is the largest power usage that I can test with my kill-a-watt. at around 90/mo.  Next year (actually this year now) it will be replaced.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2014)

Joful said:


> Geez... our usage varies between 1600 and 2500 kWh per month, depending on who's home, house guests, and outside temperatures.  I suspect our biggest users are our dehumidifiers, of which we have three.  No way in hell I'm noticing a 15 kWh difference, intentional or otherwise.


With 200 bulbs, I wouldn't be surprised if lighting isn't one of your heavy loads.


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## Ashful (Jan 2, 2014)

begreen said:


> With 200 bulbs, I wouldn't be surprised if lighting isn't one of your heavy loads.


It would be interesting to figure that out, but my gut tells me it's probably only 10 - 15 kWh / day = $49 - $73 / month.

I think a single dehumidifier in a humid basement can run $100 / month, IIRC.  We have a large basement (~2000 sq.ft.), and two dehumidifiers that run intermittently all winter and almost continuously in summer.  We have a third dehumidifier in our 3rd floor attic, where it gets humid enough in summer to cause condensation (and thus mold) on the outside of one of our AC air handlers.  I really saw the electric bill skip up a bit when we went from one to three dehumidifiers... but our basement is dry and odor free, which was not the case when we moved in.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2014)

I run a dehumifier in the greenhouse. Lousy conditions in our damp climate. But I hardly see a blip in the bill from it. Maybe $5/month? The main things I do see a change in the winter are the heat pump and much longer hours for the kitchen/lr lighting being on. The heat pump is the big one, it generally adds about $30/month average (though it can add as much as $80 with high use) and lighting maybe about $10?? But we are only talking about 12 lamps here and they are now all CFL, though I am testing a couple LED lamps too.


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## Ashful (Jan 2, 2014)

begreen said:


> The heat pump is the big one, it generally adds about $30/month average (though it can add as much as $80 with high use) and lighting...


You should try heating with wood.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2014)

Yer right, we used the heat pump a whole lot more in December 2013 than last year because a) it was much milder than normal and b) I am burning through the last of some crappy soft maple which is dirty and damp. Just got the bill today and it is up by a whopping 500KW compared to last Dec.! It's one of the highest bills we've had in several years. Ah well, fortunately we are soon going to be burning our good dry wood. Looking forward to it.


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## DBoon (Jan 2, 2014)

Joful said:


> Is your electric usage really that consistent that you could see that decrease in your bill? I mean, mine goes up and down by $100 from one month to the next.



I track a 12 month moving average of my electricity usage.  It's not perfect, but it smooths out the month to month variability, and my usage is pretty consistent. In a month, I'm only using 300-350 kWh in the summer and 400-450 kWh in the winter (difference being pumps for the boiler, fan for the wood stove, and a little more hot water usage.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2014)

Lighting has to be a difference too. There are lots less daylight hours in winter.


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## Where2 (Jan 2, 2014)

EatenByLimestone said:


> My fridge is the largest power usage that I can test with my kill-a-watt. at around 90/mo.  Next year (actually this year now) it will be replaced.



Really? $90/mo just for the fridge?? I have months when my entire bill isn't $90/mo, even when I back out my PV system. Granted, my current refrigerator is only 13 years old, which is certainly not state of the art, but it is a 26cuft side by side.

You think it's hard to find a 15kWh difference in a normal house, you should try to find that when you have a PV system running. 15kWh is the difference between what I collect on a really good day, and what I collect on a mostly overcast day. 15kWh is also the sort of swing I can put in my bill by just having 5 weekends worth of laundry to run through the washer/dryer instead of 4 weekends worth of laundry. (all electric house)

As for those wondering about the dehumidifier effect, I measured mine on the weekend using my Kill-A-Watt. Fan alone = 50W, Running the compressor = 725W. Pick a duty cycle to compute your average consumption.

Just got my two Ted 1001's in the mail today. Now I can start measuring ceiling fans...


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 2, 2014)

90 kwh!  My average month's usage is 278kwh/mo so it's probably the big energy user at my house.  I don't have a way to test the stove without buying rather pricey equipment.


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## Ashful (Jan 3, 2014)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I don't have a way to test the stove without buying rather pricey equipment.


Clamp on ammeter (Amprobe) and one of those calculators you get free at the bank / cereal box.  Measure usage in different modes of operation, use calculator to extrapolate.  Electric stoves are almost purely resistive, so very close to volt-amps = watts.


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## billb3 (Jan 3, 2014)

the average electric bill has gone up 30%-40% in the last 5 years
I've gone on vacation for almost a month, turned off all the breakers but the fridge and with no one going in and out of it used 65kwh for the month.

5 years ago we could get our electric bill just under $20/mo in the Summer. Now we're doing well staying under $35.00 and we've transitioned from cfl to led lighting
shooting for under 125kwh/mo meant brassieres, stockings, underwear and panties dangling all over like spider webs from not using the drier. No thanks.

There's plenty of cost estimators around, like http://www.glendalewaterandpower.com/rates/appliance_operating_costs.aspx
fairly easy to see what a dehumidifier and water heater does to an electric bill with higher duty cycles


one item not mentioned on lots of estimators is your cable box - they get quite warm


you might want to run numbers on making ( a % of your ) water hot with a couple solar panels


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## billb3 (Jan 3, 2014)

boo boo said:


> The 25 watt light bulb my wife leaves on in the basement for the cats drives me nuts.



25 x2 4=600=0.6kwh x $0.21/kwh (my new electric rate ) =$0.126/day = $3.78 / month.
That's not too bad, but replace it with a LED bulb that uses 3.5 watts and that becomes 50¢/mo aroundabout a 4 month payback on the bulb if the bulb is  12 bucks
adds up fast on lights that are left on all the time
intermittant use lights - not so much


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## maple1 (Jan 3, 2014)

*It would be interesting to figure that out, but my gut tells me it's probably only 10 - 15 kWh / day = $49 - $73 / month.*

That would be over half of our monthly bill. I think I'd call that a substantial load, if it were ours at least. I guess I'm not a lighting connoisseur.

_*I run a dehumifier in the greenhouse. Lousy conditions in our damp climate. But I hardly see a blip in the bill from it. Maybe $5/month?*_

With some rough figuring, I think $5/month would only buy us about 40 hours/month of dehumidification here. I noticed a jump when I had ours running after putting in our years wood a couple falls ago - bad timing meant it had to go in damp, so I had to set up the dehumdifier for a month or two. Like, an extra $30-40/month or so.

That's the only time it gets used here, and it hasn't been used for a couple of years now. If I was in a situation where I regularly needed to dehumidify, I would have a HPWH in a heartbeat.


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## maple1 (Jan 3, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> As WG says, it's a clamp on. You clamp on to the fat, hot, insulated wires just before they hit the main breaker in your panel. There is plenty of room right on top of the main breaker in a regular panel to put the little rings in place. The clamp on pickup rings are routed out of the panel through a skinny wire that conveniently slips into the corner cutout of your panel can and under the cover so it's very easy. On the outside of the panel can, those little wires hit a trnasmitter box that you stick on the wall or whatever and it talks to the display unit wirelessly.
> 
> You could just as easily clamp the pickups around another circuit in the panel and monitor that circuit's consumption. Really fancy monitoring systems have several clamps and allow you to log as many circuits as you want. Sheesh, start with the main. This allows you to backcheck the meter readings if you think the utility is robbing you.


 
Well, I Ebayed one yesterday so I'll be having another new gadget to play with. Should be interesting. Think I'll get a Kill-O-Watt type thing too, but I'd like to find one with a 20-amp receptacle to monitor just my new UPS with. Looks like there isn't such a thing - all I've seen are 15 amp? Guess I could just wire myself up a pigtail adaptor to use with it.


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## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Well, I Ebayed one yesterday so I'll be having another new gadget to play with. Should be interesting. Think I'll get a Kill-O-Watt type thing too, but I'd like to find one with a 20-amp receptacle to monitor just my new UPS with. Looks like there isn't such a thing - all I've seen are 15 amp? Guess I could just wire myself up a pigtail adaptor to use with it.


 
That 15 amp limitation is a pain in the butt. I have exceeded that several times and it starts beeping at you and doesn't seem happy. It's a cheap device though and I've found plenty of use for it to justify the cost.

Right now my kill-a-watt is tracking my truck's block heater consumption. I'm trying to verify that the improvement in fuel consumption justifies the electric cost of running the block heater.


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## Ashful (Jan 3, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I'm trying to verify that the improvement in fuel consumption justifies the electric cost of running the block heater.


Highbeam, you are a true geek.


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## semipro (Jan 3, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> That 15 amp limitation is a pain in the butt. I have exceeded that several times and it starts beeping at you and doesn't seem happy. It's a cheap device though and I've found plenty of use for it to justify the cost.
> 
> Right now my kill-a-watt is tracking my truck's block heater consumption. I'm trying to verify that the improvement in fuel consumption justifies the electric cost of running the block heater.


Aren't there other benefits to block heating though, quicker passenger heat, less engine wear, cold weather starting? 
I'm sure those are hard to quantify so you're probably just looking at what you can measure.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 3, 2014)

If Its a diesel ,block heating is a necessity.


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## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> If Its a diesel ,block heating is a necessity.


 
No. The powerstroke diesel I have is designed by IH to start reliably in -20 F with no block heater and never has a problem well into the single digits that I've tested. It does start much nicer with less smoke and harshness when plugged in. Block heaters only give 30-40 degrees rise over ambient, this is what I measure and what the cummins guys have found as well. It doesn't make a warm truck and the cab heat is still a long ways away but you folks are right that many things are better with a plugged in truck. I want to know that it is also cheaper and so far it is.

The block heater is 1000 watts and does all the warming that it can do in 3 hours so I am showing that the fuel savings exceed 30 cents per day. 30 cents is less than 0.1 gallons of fuel so it's not hard. Some of the hypermiler guys plug in their cars/trucks 9 months of the year. I believe the prius even has a little thermos bottle to hold in engine heat. Warm engines are much more efficient.

I am a geek but these little hobbies are much cheaper than cocaine.


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## 1750 (Jan 3, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> these little hobbies are much cheaper than cocaine.



Nice.   I'll use it as my go-to refrain whenever possible.


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## Ashful (Jan 3, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> The block heater is 1000 watts and does all the warming that it can do in 3 hours so I am showing that the fuel savings exceed 30 cents per day.


Interesting.  My little 1.3L Yanmar diesel has  400W block heater, and I know that just 20 minutes on wall current has it heated up to start like a warm day, even in very cold conditions.  Much smaller engine, but also a much smaller heater.

I have a heavy-duty (15A 3-prong) mechanical light and appliance timer, and I plug it into that on cold nights, when I plan to use it the following morning.  No sense in running the block heater all night, I set it to come on 20 or 30 minutes before my planned usage time.  Down the road, I think I'll run it off an X-10 or appliance module, so it can be switched remotely from the house, as it sits in the barn 150 feet from the house.



Highbeam said:


> I am a geek but these little hobbies are much cheaper than cocaine.


----------



## jebatty (Jan 5, 2014)

> _*I run a dehumifier in the greenhouse. Lousy conditions in our damp climate. But I hardly see a blip in the bill from it. Maybe $5/month?*_
> 
> With some rough figuring, I think $5/month would only buy us about 40 hours/month of dehumidification here. I noticed a jump when I had ours running after putting in our years wood a couple falls ago - bad timing meant it had to go in damp, so I had to set up the dehumdifier for a month or two. Like, an extra $30-40/month or so.


Summer dehumidifier in the basement is an energy hog from an Energy Star rated dehumidifier. Typical kwh/mo for us for the dehumidifer is about 500 x $0.11/kwh = $55.00/mo for July and August, our main months of use, some also in late June and maybe early September. It's a small price to pay for the benefit, so not using it would be "stupid," but I wish I could find a way to reduce or eliminate the need for dehumidification.


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## Where2 (Jan 5, 2014)

It's raining outside, so my PV system isn't collecting much today. Installed one of my TED 1001 units about an hour ago, knowing I needed to dry some towels and run some other loads of laundry today. After just over an hour of use, I find the TED 1001 quite depressing to watch. The depressing part is not TED's fault, the device works excellent. What is depressing is how thirsty the dryer is while drying a load of towels. The consumption only got worse when the water heater timer kicked in using my 1500W lower element. However, for $21 (including shipping), the TED 1001 is quite effective at providing nearly real time consumption data, even if that data is not in my favor.


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## PapaDave (Jan 5, 2014)

I dread running the elec. dryer or putting something in the oven.
I half-azzed reading the meter before and after a load in the dryer, and if I remember correctly, an average load for us used about 3 Kwh.
Our normal daily use can be as low as 8, and a high of maybe 12 or so.
Quite a large chunk of our use is the dryer.


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## Highbeam (Jan 5, 2014)

The dryer load is only depressing if you don't already have a water heater or hot tub also sucking down the watts. The dryer cycles the elements on and off so at least it isn't  a steady drain. I sure don't like looking up and seeing the water heater cycle just to maintain tank temps, that is pure waste.

The dishwasher was the shocker to me. That puppy pulls some watts down.

Sure we could hand wash dishes and hang clothes to dry and use nothing. We could also buy propane burning water heaters and dryers but that would just hide the problem.


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## Bret Chase (Jan 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> The dryer load is only depressing if you don't already have a water heater or hot tub also sucking down the watts. The dryer cycles the elements on and off so at least it isn't  a steady drain. I sure don't like looking up and seeing the water heater cycle just to maintain tank temps, that is pure waste.
> 
> The dishwasher was the shocker to me. That puppy pulls some watts down.
> 
> Sure we could hand wash dishes and hang clothes to dry and use nothing. We could also buy propane burning water heaters and dryers but that would just hide the problem.



my dishwasher draws less than my wife's hairdryer...


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## Highbeam (Jan 5, 2014)

Bret Chase said:


> my dishwasher draws less than my wife's hairdryer...


 
It was something surprising like 750 watts though when washing. No heater. This is the motor which is really only a pump. Hairdryer at 1500 watts is of course higher. We should all have bald wives.


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## Where2 (Jan 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> We could also buy propane burning water heaters and dryers but that would just hide the problem.



In my case, that would be counter-productive. The local gas company finally brought NG to my parents house (4 houses down the street) after 50+ years of having a propane account. (still can't get NG at my house). The "base charge" per month for a NG account is close to $20. I can dry quite a few loads of laundry for $20/mo. It would be less expensive over the long haul to spend my $$$ and add more solar generating capacity. The electric utility "base charge" is $7.25, and I'm already a paying customer with them.


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## 1750 (Jan 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> I sure don't like looking up and seeing the water heater cycle just to maintain tank temps, that is pure waste.


I've been impressed with the Rinnai on-demand system.   

There's a detailed calculator available on their page to see if conversion makes sense.  Good news, the woman showering on the homepage delivers every unit personally:  http://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heater


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## Highbeam (Jan 5, 2014)

Where2 said:


> In my case, that would be counter-productive. The local gas company finally brought NG to my parents house (4 houses down the street) after 50+ years of having a propane account. (still can't get NG at my house). The "base charge" per month for a NG account is close to $20. I can dry quite a few loads of laundry for $20/mo. It would be less expensive over the long haul to spend my $$$ and add more solar generating capacity. The electric utility "base charge" is $7.25, and I'm already a paying customer with them.


 
Fortunately we have fuel cost calculators like the one on this site. Turns out that propane, even high efficiency, is more expensive per btu than resistance electric heat in my location. There are a handful of drawbacks to gas fired stuff in the home as well but a helpful benefit of gas is that the wall kettle is much smaller than a big tank.

With NG, who knows but for good or bad, it is not available to me.


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## Highbeam (Jan 5, 2014)

1750 said:


> I've been impressed with the Rinnai on-demand system.
> 
> There's a detailed calculator available on their page to see if conversion makes sense.  Good news, the woman showering on the homepage delivers every unit personally:  http://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heater


 
That woman could be a man given what they show us.....

Ouch! 82% efficient?


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## Bret Chase (Jan 5, 2014)

Seasoned Oak said:


> If Its a diesel ,block heating is a necessity.



The Perkins made CAT branded 3054T in my '00 Caterpillar TH63, has never had a block heater and doesn't have glow plugs.  It does have an intake air heater though... if that thing won't start... it's too cold to be sitting in its open cab...


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## Bret Chase (Jan 5, 2014)

PapaDave said:


> I dread running the elec. dryer or putting something in the oven.
> I half-azzed reading the meter before and after a load in the dryer, and if I remember correctly, an average load for us used about 3 Kwh.
> Our normal daily use can be as low as 8, and a high of maybe 12 or so.
> Quite a large chunk of our use is the dryer.



I've got a gas range, so I don't worry about that....  and paying to run the dryer is better than pulling frozen clothes off the line and trying to wear them... 

I'd love to have another gas dryer... it was cheap as hell to run.... and the moist heat seemed to be easier on my clothes.


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## jebatty (Jan 5, 2014)

> I sure don't like looking up and seeing the water heater cycle just to maintain tank temps, that is pure waste.


You can probably end that by super-insulating the tank and adding effective heat traps to the hot and cold lines. Cost for those enhancements would be less than $50.00 if you did the work yourself.


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## 1750 (Jan 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> That woman could be a man given what they show us.....
> 
> Ouch! 82% efficient?


"Ouch", meaning "82%... that's crazy bad!" or "OUCH!  82%... that's crazy good!"?  

(I'm assuming the former.)

And, she's a she.   I checked when she delivered my unit.


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## Highbeam (Jan 5, 2014)

1750 said:


> "Ouch", meaning "82%... that's crazy bad!" or "OUCH!  82%... that's crazy good!"?
> 
> (I'm assuming the former.)
> 
> And, she's a she.   I checked when she delivered my unit.


 
I expected much better than 82%. There's a fantastic UPS girl photo as well. Aren't some of these water heaters well into the 90s efficient? At least as advertised?


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## 1750 (Jan 5, 2014)

Some of the energy factors listed with the Rinnai tankless units are in the 90s.   This one is 95%:  http://www.rinnai.us/water-heater/product/ru98e-reu-kb3237wd-us

I don't honestly know if "energy efficiency" and "energy factor" are comparable measurements. 

Martin Holladay of GBA has a pretty exhaustive introduction to hot water heating here:  http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/all-about-water-heaters 

I can tell from what you have written that you probably know absolutely all of the content he includes.   However, below, is a vignette he includes that described a product I had never heard of before.  While I would have some hesitation stepping into a shower with an electrical cord coming out of the shower head, this is probably about as good as it gets.   I'd LOVE to stick one in my daughters' shower -- short of the potential for electrocution, it seems win-win.  

"A few years ago I visited a small town on the Caribbean island of Dominica, and stayed in a simple guest house. The house had no water heater. However, the showerhead was fat, and it had a cord dangling from the end that was plugged into the nearest outlet. An electric resistance element in the showerhead (controlled by a flow sensor) raised the temperature of the water flowing through the showerhead. Since the electrical draw of the resistance element was fixed, the user controlled the temperature by adjusting the water flow. If the flow was adjusted to a trickle, the water was very hot; if the water flow was fast, the shower was lukewarm at best.

Of course, this device looked a little frightening, but it worked. It had several virtues:


It only worked with low flows, so you had to save both water and electricity if you wanted a hot shower.
Obviously, there was no hot water wasted, because no hot water ever sat in a pipe."


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## Bret Chase (Jan 5, 2014)

1750 said:


> "A few years ago I visited a small town on the Caribbean island of Dominica, and stayed in a simple guest house. The house had no water heater. However, the showerhead was fat, and it had a cord dangling from the end that was plugged into the nearest outlet. An electric resistance element in the showerhead (controlled by a flow sensor) raised the temperature of the water flowing through the showerhead. Since the electrical draw of the resistance element was fixed, the user controlled the temperature by adjusting the water flow. If the flow was adjusted to a trickle, the water was very hot; if the water flow was fast, the shower was lukewarm at best.
> 
> Of course, this device looked a little frightening, but it worked. It had several virtues:
> 
> ...



Basically what you are describing is a booster...  they're used quite commonly in commercial kitchens to rise the DHW supply from 120F to code required 180F for the dishwasher.  they use an astounding amount of power.  The last one I had to take care of had FIFTEEN 5500W elements!


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## 1750 (Jan 5, 2014)

But they couldn't use more than a tankless system that does the same job for water that then has to travel the house plumbing to find the shower, right?  No heat loss to the plumbing, and no hot water left in the pipes when you are done.  

Also, I liked the behavior modification that seemed built into it -- if you want a hot shower, it's low flow.  So, my princesses who now are standing under the shower essentially taking a vertical tub bath, would have to keep it moving!


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## 1750 (Jan 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> There's a fantastic UPS girl photo as well.


I looked, but don't think I saw of whom you are speaking  -- or maybe the Rinnai girl chased her off.


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## Ashful (Jan 5, 2014)

Highbeam said:


> We should all have bald wives.


Sigourney pulled it off nicely.


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## 1750 (Jan 5, 2014)

hmmmm... it looks like maybe she needs a long shower.


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## Highbeam (Jan 5, 2014)

1750 said:


> I looked, but don't think I saw of whom you are speaking  -- or maybe the Rinnai girl chased her off.


 
Very clean, safe for work, only a minor hijack, yes I am red blooded american man.

http://www.thelostogle.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/ups-girl-1.jpg


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## 1750 (Jan 5, 2014)

LOL.

I definitely did not see that on the UPS site!   

She would definitely give the Rinnai girl a run for her money.


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## begreen (Jan 5, 2014)

Looks like this one has run its course.


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