# Better N Bens



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

Hi everyone I'm John new to wood stoves. I bought a house that had a better n bens wood stove in it and I'm having issues. I can't seem to keep it burning. If I close the doors I don't get enough air to coals and it smothers. I open the door and it flashes then burns rampant. I have a good draft I think. I feel like I'm wasting way more wood than I should be. Also the thermometer on it doesn't get over 250-300 degrees. Thanks for the help!


----------



## webby3650 (Jan 1, 2016)

The better n bens that I've been around are not much more than glorified barrel stoves. It should be able to burn just about anything you can throw in it. It really sounds like your wood is wet. Does it sizzle or foam out of the ends of the wood? How long has the wood been cut split and stacked? 
Does it smoke out of the door when it's opened?


----------



## tcassavaugh (Jan 1, 2016)

first question everyone is going to ask is how is your wood. how long has it been cut and split. it is often the root of similar problems, especially if you have a good draft.


----------



## tcassavaugh (Jan 1, 2016)

webby3650 said:


> The better n bens that I've been around are not much more than glorified barrel stoves. It should be able to burn just about anything you can throw in it. It really sounds like your wood is wet. Does it sizzle or foam out of the ends of the wood? How long has the wood been cut split and stacked?
> Does it smoke out of the door when it's opened?


.....while not pretty, i've heated with one of those old barrel stoves......it was a monster. i lined the bottom with sand, then fire brick and gave it too her. worked for years.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

I'm pretty sure the guy I bought wood from said it was 6-7 months spilt. Sounds hollow when you bang them together. It does sizzle, maybe a little foam. If I open the door really fast I get some smoke. This morning it has been running about 400, I tried building a better starter fire.


----------



## mark cline (Jan 1, 2016)

What is your flue size , height ,masonry chimney, double wall ,  does it go straight up through the house , any bends ? Wood moisture content, outside temps. where are you located?


----------



## zig (Jan 1, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> I'm pretty sure the guy I bought wood from said it was 6-7 months spilt. Sounds hollow when you bang them together. It does sizzle, maybe a little foam. If I open the door really fast I get some smoke. This morning it has been running about 400, I tried building a better starter fire.


Wood's wet, that's not long enough to season. Mix some 2x4 with the wet wood or pallet wood to help out. Keep an eye on the chimney as your wood will build creosote quickly.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

I did use some pallet wood this morning when I started it


----------



## tcassavaugh (Jan 1, 2016)

zig said:


> Wood's wet, that's not long enough to season. Mix some 2x4 with the wet wood or pallet wood to help out. Keep an eye on the chimney as your wood will build creosote quickly.


yeah, i think that pretty much sums it up. sounds like your wood is wet if its sizzling and foaming.


----------



## tcassavaugh (Jan 1, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> I'm pretty sure the guy I bought wood from said it was 6-7 months spilt.............


i've found out the hard way that wood dealers are a lot like used car salesmen....... seasoned to them is a lot different than what we think of. if you can get a hold of one, a moisture meter will help you out in determining what will or will not burn better. I'd start scrounging some pallets to help out with the wetter/green wood. mix them together and it will help out.


----------



## zig (Jan 1, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> I did use some pallet wood this morning when I started it


If the chimney hasn't been cleaned or you don't know what to look for, find a sweep and have it inspected. Nothing will burn if the chimney is plugged except possibly the house. Folks new to wood heat have a learning curve and first year burners never have dry wood. None of us did ether so don't feel bad, just get some scraps to help out. You may have to do that from time to time. Split the wood smaller and store some inside with a fan blowing on it if you can to help dry it. Does it have glass doors? Every stove is different in running so adjusting the draft is important to learn. Start with air wide open and close it down as the fire picks up until you have the burn you want.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

The stove doesn't have glass doors. I looked at the flue. I've got some experience with chimney fires from being a firefighter. The flue look brand new. No black or build up. I can only close the door and leave air intake wide open after an hour or so after starting. Then throw 2-3 pieces on and stove sits around 200


----------



## begreen (Jan 1, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> I'm pretty sure the guy I bought wood from said it was 6-7 months spilt. Sounds hollow when you bang them together. It does sizzle, maybe a little foam. If I open the door really fast I get some smoke. This morning it has been running about 400, I tried building a better starter fire.


Sounds like the wood needs longer to season, especially if it's oak. It takes a couple years to season oak and hickory. 6-7 months would barely be enough for doug fir. Keep an eye on the flue and clean once for every cord of wood burned.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

Here's a couple pictures from this morning


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 1, 2016)

Might could be the wood ain't dry enough and what has been said about wood and wood dealers is all true. But that old stove can tolerate wetter wood than a newer unit _if_ it's drafting ok and the wood is getting enough air. Can you confirm that the flue damper (upper right) is working? May be stuck partially closed? That you need to leave the doors open for a long time to warm the flue enough to get draft going could be a clue.

You also mentioned you took a look at the flue and it's clean, how is this stove installed? Is it simply slid into the firebox or has it been connected to the existing flue. Best would be a full liner from the stove to the top.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

When I look down the flue from the roof all I see is clay. There is no liner up to the roof. The damper open and closes properly. I just threw 3 peices on with to doors open to help them catch, the wife said i almost smoked out the neighborhood.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

It looks like it has a partial liner atleast from the bottom, up the flue


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 1, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> It looks like it has a partial liner atleast from the bottom, up the flue


Search for the term "slammer" install here and see if you think that's what you have. If you come to believe this is what you have, you may find it never runs as well as you might like and you should know these installs are not to code and potentially quite dangerous.


----------



## begreen (Jan 1, 2016)

It may be a slammer I'm not sure how the damper would still operate with a partial liner in there. A direct connect is supposed to take the liner to the second tile.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 1, 2016)

begreen said:


> It may be a slammer I'm not sure how the damper would still operate with a partial liner in there. A direct connect is supposed to take the liner to the second tile.


I think those units come with a damper installed below the flue connector. The original chimney damper may or may not have been removed (?).


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

Can't really tell, the only thing I can tell you is that there is no liner you can see from the roof


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

I'd have to take the insert out to really find out?


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 1, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> Can't really tell, the only thing I can tell you is that there is no liner you can see from the roof


Pull the surround and you may be able to see. Should not be tough. Have you had it swept and inspected? A sweep should able to tell.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 1, 2016)

Ok I'll have to wait for it to cool down. I haven't had it cleaned. Like I said before I went on the roof and the clay lining looked brand new.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 2, 2016)

Looks like I do have a "slammer". Took off faceplate this morning and found this. What would be my next step to fix this problem?


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> Looks like I do have a "slammer". Took off faceplate this morning and found this. What would be my next step to fix this problem?


clean everything really well and install a properly sized and insulated liner the stove will run like a dream


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> Looks like I do have a "slammer". Took off faceplate this morning and found this. What would be my next step to fix this problem?


Well you can see some of the problems with that kind of install right off. All the sweepings end up on top and behind the insert so it' should have been pulled to really clean it. The smoke has no clear path so it's drafting lousy when its cool, so at startup _and_ as it burns down. That means there's an opportunity for CO to get back into the house. Also since you can't use the original damper you're likely to get cold drafts and creosote smell in the house.

Best fix is a full liner to the top and a block-off plate to isolate the warm house from the chimney. Many of those old units use an 8" liner and the newer ones use 6" so there's a decision to be made about how much money to spend on this getting this insert working safely.

Want size is the current clay liner? Need to know what size it can accept. Also is this an interior or exterior chimney? I'm thinking if the last sweep just brushed everything down and left all that creosote he's not the guy for you. That stuff could ignite sitting on the insert so maybe you want to have another certified guy out to evaluate you for safety/clearances and options.

Experts here can talk you through it as well if you are a DIYer.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 2, 2016)

jatoxico said:


> Well you can see some of the problems with that kind of install right off. All the sweepings end up on top and behind the insert so it' should have been pulled to really clean it. The smoke has no clear path so it's drafting lousy when its cool, so at startup _and_ as it burns down. That means there's an opportunity for CO to get back into the house. Also since you can't use the original damper you're likely to get cold drafts and creosote smell in the house.
> 
> Best fix is a full liner to the top and a block-off plate to isolate the warm house from the chimney. Many of those old units use an 8" liner and the newer ones use 6" so there's a decision to be made about how much money to spend on this getting this insert working safely.
> 
> ...



jatoxico I just bought the house so I am still looking for a chimney guy. I measures the stove damper and its 7" ID. I was thinking a 6" liner and put an adapter on the instert. It is a interior chimney. I am more than comfortable doing stuff on my own. I just don't know how to adapt the stove damper to the liner. I am assuming it goes on the inside of the damper


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> I just don't know how to adapt the stove damper to the liner. I am assuming it goes on the inside of the damper



@bholler can probably point you to exactly what you need to adapt that unit to a liner. I'll just add there are some relatively inexpensive EPA insert options that are well thought of. Englander sold through HD comes to mind. They are good sturdy units with good customer service (have a rep here). Just saying you may want to consider that too.


----------



## webby3650 (Jan 2, 2016)

Often times if a chimney goes unused for a long period of time the creosote will all fall to the bottom. Particularly if there is no cap. Before I used it I would pull those panels off and get a look in there.

I've seen many of these direct connect installs where the liner is smashed nearly flat to get it through the fireplace damper. That could be contributing to your draft issues.

*Edit. Now I see I missed the last page of the discussion. Lol


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 2, 2016)

Don't have a new stove in the budget at this time. I want to fix this to be safe, and then down the line get a new one.

Webby I just pulled them off and cleaned out everything. I'm not trying to figure out to put it back together.


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> jatoxico I just bought the house so I am still looking for a chimney guy. I measures the stove damper and its 7" ID. I was thinking a 6" liner and put an adapter on the instert. It is a interior chimney. I am more than comfortable doing stuff on my own. I just don't know how to adapt the stove damper to the liner. I am assuming it goes on the inside of the damper


If it is 7" then you should use a 7" liner.  and an appliance adapter to match that liner


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> Don't have a new stove in the budget at this time. I want to fix this to be safe, and then down the line get a new one.



I hear you, new house and plenty of places to spend money! Offhand you will need an adapter, liner and cap for the top. Measure your current flue to see what can fit. The old damper will more than likely need to be cut back or removed to allow the install of the liner. If the experts think a 6" liner will work that would be best so you're not buying a new one later down the line.

Pictures of what you have inside and out will help. Probably would be best to remove the insert and put it to the side. Not sure how you could deal with the old damper w/o doing that. In addition there's likely a whole lot of creosote above the old damper and in the smoke shelf that should be vacuumed out.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 2, 2016)

Outside has a cap on it already that covers a three flues. Other to are for boiler and fireplace.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 2, 2016)

Do you think I would be able to sell this insert?


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> Do you think I would be able to sell this insert?


yeah you could sell it i am sure but it is not worth all that much $300 to $400 at the highest


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2016)

@bholler can that stove run w/ a 6" liner?


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2016)

jatoxico said:


> @bholler can that stove run w/ a 6" liner?


It would probably work ok depending on the height.  I personally would not do it but it might work


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2016)

bholler said:


> It would probably work ok depending on the height.  I personally would not do it but it might work


As an option run the 6" liner to use the stove for this season. My thinking is a new EPA certified stove will need dry wood which will be tough to come by right now whereas the older stove will tolerate semi-seasoned wood. Run it hot, keep it clean and swept and figure on replacing it before next year.

Buy in the off season and you might catch a good clearance sale. At the same time get your wood drying for the new one so it will be at least half decent. If you are buying cord wood and if you can swing it buy an extra cord. That would put you in pretty fair shape.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 2, 2016)

Finding a qualified sweep or a market for the stove could be a problem in Monroe, Louisiana. Except for maybe Boudreau & Thibodeau Chimney Sweeping, Crawfish Pots and Boilers LLC.

Looking at that damper I see a problem with installing the adapter and liner on that pup.


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2016)

BrotherBart said:


> Looking at that damper I see a problem with installing the adapter and liner on that pup.


why i have done it many times on similar units


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 2, 2016)

bholler said:


> why i have done it many times on similar units



Didn't say it couldn't be done. Just saying that as a rookie I see it as a problem.


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2016)

BrotherBart said:


> Didn't say it couldn't be done. Just saying that as a rookie I see it as a problem.


Its not hard just notch for the adapter for the rod and then possibly grind down the damper a little so it clears the adapter.  It is still the easiest and best way to install it.


----------



## begreen (Jan 2, 2016)

Ugh. Looks like all the chimney cleaning sote has landed on top of the insert. It should have a full stainless steel liner installed after the insert and chimney are thoroughly cleaned. This will need a flue collar attached to the insert.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 2, 2016)

Where can I get a collar for top of insert and how would I attach it to insert?


----------



## webby3650 (Jan 2, 2016)

The appliance adaptor that comes with your liner kit can be notched to fit. Attach some angle brackets to the stove, then screw the adaptor to the angle brackets. Self drilling screws are your friend!


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 23, 2016)

Hi everyone so a little update. I cleaned the chimney and I modified a adapter to the top of the insert. I used angle brackets and tap threaded them in. My next question is how would I seal where the adapter meets the top of the stove?


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 23, 2016)

Was thinking hi temp rtv silicon or hi temp epoxy


----------



## bholler (Jan 23, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> Was thinking hi temp rtv silicon or hi temp epoxy


The temps are to high post a picture of it they usually dont need sealed but the only thing that will hold up to the temps there is furnace cement.


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 23, 2016)

Here are some pics. You can see light from underneath


----------



## bholler (Jan 24, 2016)

Well to start off that adapter needs to be stainless not plain steel.  And it should fit down inside the hole.  If you are going to do it that way i would cut slits and bend tabs out on the bottom to create a flange.  Then cut out a circular trim piece to go over it.  Attach it all down and as long as you do it right that should be pretty tight.  But get a stainless piece not that one


----------



## Firefigter148 (Jan 24, 2016)

Why SS? This is rated for flue. Also why a flange or inside


----------



## bholler (Jan 24, 2016)

Firefigter148 said:


> Why SS? This is rated for flue. Also why a flange or inside


No that is rated for connector pipe.  If you are putting the surround up legally you cant use black pipe there.  But even if it will be exposed you want something that will last not something you will be needing to replace every few years.  The best option for the adapter would be if you could slide it into the stove collar that would be the correct way and any thing that was running down the pipe would then end up in the stove not on top of it.  But if that is a non standard size and you cannot fabricate one to fit like we do then a flanged boot would be the next best thing.  The way you have it now there is no real seal there and any sealant you use will be temporary in that application.


----------

