# DHW -- Oil vs Electric, getting closer to real numbers.



## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

Ok, so I have just about run this topic dry (no pun intended), but......

I am starting to come up with some real figures for electric vs oil to generate DHW. I have been trying to schedule my oil deliveries when the oil tank gauge is between the E and 1/4 lines and I get only the minimum delivery of 125 gallons. That way I can pretty accurately tell how long it takes to use up the 125 gallons to heat the water.

In the house are me, my wife a 3 year old and a 4 month old.

So I had another delivery yesterday of 125 gallons. Based on the delivery history on the slip, over the past 20 months (actually 19 months and 28 days) I have used 500 gallons of oil (and no, I did not include this most recent 125 gallons in that figure) to generate our hot water.

So that means we are using 25 gallons a month and at the current rate of $3.69 / gallon that is $92.25 per month to heat the water.

This is starting to make feel even more inclined to switch over to an electric hot water tank. Considering that my system is in the range of 55-65% efficient for making DHW, that works out to be in the range of $50 - $60 dollars for electric. PSNH claims $68 a month for a family of four, but I bet this is on the high end.

So using my numbers, that is a saving of $32 per month. I'm thinking of hiring a plumber to install the new electric tank so I'm guessing that the install will probably run in the range of $750 - $1,000 with the cost of the tank included in that. Worst case is a 2 1/2 year payback. I could probably make this better by adding a timer to the water heater so that it is not heating water during the night.

Now, what is the best electric water heater for the money? I don't want and on demand system, I want a storage tank. Are the $350 HD specials as good as the new fancy fiberglass ones? The spec sheets all seem to show the same performance, no matter the type of tank.


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## bbfarm (Nov 20, 2012)

We bought a cheap $300 hot water heater with an 8 year warranty on it.  It is 16 years later and still working.  It is starting to leak a bit, but we got our money's worth out of it. 

If you have soft water they will last longer


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## ScotL (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> Ok, so I have just about run this topic dry (no pun intended), but......
> 
> I am starting to come up with some real figures for electric vs oil to generate DHW. I have been trying to schedule my oil deliveries when the oil tank gauge is between the E and 1/4 lines and I get only the minimum delivery of 125 gallons. That way I can pretty accurately tell how long it takes to use up the 125 gallons to heat the water.
> 
> ...


 
If you have hot water baseboard heat installed in your house, I'd look into a Kedel. I've been pretty impressed with them. But, it would take a lot more research to determine the cost of using pellets for your DHW. It's also a much larger investment.
I've been heating my DHW with my Harman boiler for the last 3 years, but I may be a little wierd that way.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

ScotL said:


> If you have hot water baseboard heat installed in your house, I'd look into a Kedel. I've been pretty impressed with them. But, it would take a lot more research to determine the cost of using pellets for your DHW.


 
Wow, that looks very nice, and expensive. I already have two pellet stoves that heat the house quite nicely. My oil furnace is only 9 year old so ripping it out would be silly, plus, having the oil furnace as a backup is a good idea.

I'm just looking to cut back on oil usage as much as possible and the DHW is were it is at right now.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 20, 2012)

I flogged this topic to death as well here and other places:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/comparison-of-dhw-oil-indirect-vs-electric-tank.89754/ .

I wound up putting in a 40 gallon (there are only 2 of us) cheap model from HD, and put some more insulation on it.  I also set it on a 2" thick piece of foam.  I installed it myself in parallel with the indirect so that the indirect could be used, say, in the event of a prolonged power outage.

My reading disuaded me from using a timer for the electric.  They don't lose that much heat overnight.

For two months, I've used 59 and 41 kwh more than last year.  I don't think the 41 kwh is representative since we were traveling.  So, assuming, like, 60 kwh a month more electricity, times about $.10/kwh incremental, it's 6 bucks more a month.  I figured I used, maybe 3/4 of a gallon of oil a day for heating dhw, so even if that was 1/2 gallon a day it comes to around $50 bucks a month, a savings of $44 per month.  So even conservatively, for what I recall to be a $300 water heater, it's like an 8 month payback for me.   

I considered a heat pump water heater, but I'm in the northeast, and they seem best suited for warm climates.  My basement is already cold enough in winter and I insulated the walls.  Plus they make noise and have more moving parts to break, and they're not cheap, even with a rebate.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 20, 2012)

Thanks for the kedel link.  Pretty nice.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> I flogged this topic to death as well here and other places:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/comparison-of-dhw-oil-indirect-vs-electric-tank.89754/ .
> 
> I wound up putting in a 40 gallon (there are only 2 of us) cheap model from HD, and put some more insulation on it. I also set it on a 2" thick piece of foam. I installed it myself in parallel with the indirect so that the indirect could be used, say, in the event of a prolonged power outage.
> ...


 

Sounds pretty convincing, especially reading through the linked thread that you supplied. I think I might give some local plumbers a call and see what their opinion is.


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> I flogged this topic to death as well here and other places:
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/comparison-of-dhw-oil-indirect-vs-electric-tank.89754/ .
> 
> I wound up putting in a 40 gallon (there are only 2 of us) cheap model from HD, and put some more insulation on it. I also set it on a 2" thick piece of foam. I installed it myself in parallel with the indirect so that the indirect could be used, say, in the event of a prolonged power outage.
> ...


 
Stay away from heat pump where you are unless the technology has really changed in the past few years. I live in TN with our winters being mild. Anything below 40 and the heat pump would struggle.


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> Ok, so I have just about run this topic dry (no pun intended), but......
> 
> I am starting to come up with some real figures for electric vs oil to generate DHW. I have been trying to schedule my oil deliveries when the oil tank gauge is between the E and 1/4 lines and I get only the minimum delivery of 125 gallons. That way I can pretty accurately tell how long it takes to use up the 125 gallons to heat the water.
> 
> ...


 

What's your cost per KWH?


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

sladdin, nope, I was not thinking of doing a heat pump. My basement stays in the 50-55* range year around, which is right at the lower limit for a hybrid water heater. I'm thinking of getting a 40 gallon tank with a 9 year warranty. They are around $350 + install. I've never really done any plumping, so I may high someone to install it.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

saladdin said:


> What's your cost per KWH?


 
My electric rates here in NH are 14.89 cents per KWH.


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## Wachusett (Nov 20, 2012)

I have been considering the same thing (propane vs. electric). Spoke to a plumber and electrician, both said propane will recover faster. However the PHW is barely 60% efficient. Considering a Marathon brand fibergalss tank (electric) it's pricey, but has extra insulation and is less effected by hard water. Haven't had much luck finding a detailed cost comparison calculation that takes into account efficiency, recovery and stand by heat losses.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 20, 2012)

There are those yellow stickers attached to the units.  You should be able to find them on line.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

I think I may have given the incorrect electric rate for PSNH --- it appears that it may be lower then I had stated, but the rate are changing to 8.97 cents per KWH January 1st.

this is the chart that I went by to figure the electric rate:
Rate R, Residential Service
Available to customers living in individual residences
and apartments.
Customer Charge $11.96 Per Month
KWH Distribution Charge 3.905 Cents per KWH
KWH Transmission Charge 1.480 Cents per KWH
KWH Stranded Cost
Recovery Charge 1.999 Cents per KWH
System Benefits Charge 0.330 Cents per KWH
Electricity Consumption Tax 0.055 Cents per KWH
Energy Charge 7.11 Cents per KWH





Also, I just called a local plumber and talked to the receptionist. She mentioned that they deal primarily with oil/gas boiler systems but would be willing to give me a quote since they have done some work for me when I need an additional zone connected to the furnace. She also told me that an electric water heat is going to be substantially more expensive then the BoilerMate system that I currently have. I'm am now very anxious to speak with the owner of the company about the switch and see what he thinks.


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> sladdin, nope, I was not thinking of doing a heat pump. My basement stays in the 50-55* range year around, which is right at the lower limit for a hybrid water heater. I'm thinking of getting a 40 gallon tank with a 9 year warranty. They are around $350 + install. I've never really done any plumping, so I may high someone to install it.


 
I've considered the hydrid water heater. The ones I eyed needed their own room (very few basements in the south) and were around 1k.

Don't short yourself. Check out some youtube plumbing videos. I bet you could do it. I've had electrick water heaters my whole life and have installed before. Not that big of a bear.


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> My electric rates here in NH are 14.89 cents per KWH.


 
Jesus H Christ!  Sitting at around 9 cents here.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

saladdin said:


> Jesus H Christ! Sitting at around 9 cents here.


 
See my next post after that. I did the math wrong, the rates now are 7.11 cent but going to 8.97 cents January 1st.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 20, 2012)

saladdin said:


> Jesus H Christ! Sitting at around 9 cents here.


 
Does that include the delivery fee?


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> I think I may have given the incorrect electric rate for PSNH --- it appears that it may be lower then I had stated, but the rate are changing to 8.97 cents per KWH January 1st.
> 
> this is the chart that I went by to figure the electric rate:
> Rate R, Residential Service
> ...


 

I'm lost as to why an electric set up would be so expensive. They quoting you running the wire from the box and plumbing? If you have decent access to both you could do this.

Wait a sec... You already have the plumbing from the existing unit right? It not plug n play with the electric unit?

That just leaves the electricity.


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Does that include the delivery fee?


 
This is my entire rate schedule.

*RESIDENTIAL RATES - SCHEDULE RS*
*Customer Charge* 
*Per Delivery Point Per Month* *$19.46*
*Energy Charge Cents Per Kwh* *9.122¢ *


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> See my next post after that. I did the math wrong, the rates now are 7.11 cent but going to 8.97 cents January 1st.


 
Damn that's cheap. I've never used oil, granted, but I don't see how electric wouldn't be a crap load cheaper.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

Here is the summary of rates as PSNH gives them. Maybe someone can help me decipher/calculate them. I was looking on another (new) electrical provider for NH and they show PSNH as 7.11 cents per KWH and this just happens to be the last line of.......

Rate R, Residential Service
Available to customers living in individual residences and apartments.


Customer Charge $11.96  Per Month
KWH Distribution Charge 3.905  Cents per KWH
KWH Transmission Charge 1.480  Cents per KWH
KWH Stranded Cost    Cents per KWH
Recovery Charge 1.999  Cents per KWH
System Benefits 0.330  Cents per KWH
Electricity Consumption Tax 0.055  Cents per KWH
Energy Charge 7.110  Cents per KWH


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## maple1 (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> I think I may have given the incorrect electric rate for PSNH --- it appears that it may be lower then I had stated, but the rate are changing to 8.97 cents per KWH January 1st.
> 
> this is the chart that I went by to figure the electric rate:
> Rate R, Residential Service
> ...


 
I think the receptionist is mis-informed.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 20, 2012)

Brads actual per kilowatt charges are 14.879 cents to which is added a $11.96 per month account fee.
Your per kilowatt charge is 9.122 cents to which is added $19.46 per month account fee.

My per kilowatt charge is 16.8538 cents for up to 100 KWh and then it drops to 14.0211 cents per KWh

Just a few differences.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

Ok, so my brain finally woke up and I decided to go PSNH and look at my latest statement.

There are two portions of the bill
PSNH Delivery Services:
KWH Distribution Chrg = 0.039050 cents
Transmission Chrg = 0.014800 cents
Strnded Cst Recovery Chrg = 0.019990 cents
System Benefits Chrg = 0.003300 cents

Electricity Supply:
Energy Chrg - Rate R = 0.071100 cents

Add these all up and you get 14.824 cents per KWH


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 20, 2012)

Average daily power requirement for a 50 gallon electric hot water tank is about 7.61 KWh which is 231.5 KWh/month


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## TLHinCanada (Nov 20, 2012)

I have a 50 gal. U.S. electric tank with a blanket.  Haven't done the math in a while, but, when I installed a timer (run 6 hrs. a day) my hydro went down 20 %.


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## BradH70 (Nov 20, 2012)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> Average daily power requirement for a 50 gallon electric hot water tank is about 7.61 KWh which is 231.5 KWh/month


 
That's $34 a month with my electric rates. Sure does seem a lot cheaper then oil at almost $100 a month. Maybe I should talk to a different receptionist.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Nov 20, 2012)

Just remember average figures may not apply to a particular case.

I keep looking at it but haven't looked at it in detail, my current goal is to reduce my total electrical usage and an electric water tank ain't gonna help at all.


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## briansol (Nov 20, 2012)

I've also considered moving off the boiler and installing an electric hot water heater.  Even the on-demand type has caught my eye.  Ihad electric at my condo a few years back and my power bill was only a few bucks more than Im paying now in my house in the fall/spring time (effectively the same electric usage of no heat or cooling---  maybe a few kw/h more for a better-lit kitchen-- and no oil bill.
But, frozen pipes scare me.   My basement is 1/2 burried, but i fear it might get too cold without a furnace running there.  Would suck to waste all that money only to find out that the furnace still needs to run anyway--  or install another zone for heat which would run on the furnance too. 
How do you test it, while living there?


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## maple1 (Nov 20, 2012)

Heating DHW with oil in the non-heating season is a losing proposition no matter how it's sliced. I recently yanked out my wood/oil boiler that did our heat & hot water year round for the last 17 years, and replaced it with a new wood boiler that will do both when it's fired, an electric boiler for heat backup (will be rarely used), and electric hot water tank for DHW when the wood boiler isn't being fired. Along with heat storage.

BTW this thread might get a lot more input if it wasn't in the pellet section - maybe the DIY one?


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## velvetfoot (Nov 20, 2012)

For me, even during the heating season, it's not a winner because with the wood stove, the oil boiler is only on in the evening upstairs.


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## rona (Nov 20, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> Ok, so I have just about run this topic dry (no pun intended), but......
> 
> I am starting to come up with some real figures for electric vs oil to generate DHW. I have been trying to schedule my oil deliveries when the oil tank gauge is between the E and 1/4 lines and I get only the minimum delivery of 125 gallons. That way I can pretty accurately tell how long it takes to use up the 125 gallons to heat the water.
> 
> ...


 I put in a new Marathon this past spring This is the newstyle super insulated  plastic, fiberglass, or non metal unit. It was more money then the metal type but it won't rust out and it will be cheaper to run then the metal ones.  It takes the same amount of electricity to heat the water in either a metal tank or the Marathon but the Marathon with its superior insulation holds the water temp much longer then the old type. If you switch to electric I would certainly suggest the Marathon as you are getting the latest technology and it has been around long enough that the bugs are worked out.  I got ours through our local coop electric company that supplies our power.  They have enough purchasing power that they could save a lot buy buying in volume and passing the savings onto us. I knew several friends that purchased this same unit before us and they were more then satisfied so we ended up with one too. Ours has 61 gallon capacity which I thought was to much for us but once the water is hot it stays hot so the size doesn't matter. Our old one was 40 gallons , and 20+ years old. I added a fiberglass insulating "blanket" on the old one hoping to save electricity but it isn't as good. We have had this unit 6 months and every electric bill has been between 5 and 10.00 cheaper then a year ago so it does make a difference.


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## maple1 (Nov 20, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> For me, even during the heating season, it's not a winner because with the wood stove, the oil boiler is only on in the evening upstairs.


 
Yes, true that also - I guess my point was that during the non-heating season the losses are even more.


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## JDenyer236 (Nov 20, 2012)

We went with a hybrid water heater and love it so far. It uses a heat pump and also has full resistance backup in case it's needed to meet demand, wife likes long showers and haven't even come close to runnning out yet. During the summer my basement is 70F, in the winter it gets into the mid 40s. The heat pump will run down to 45F ambient, after that it energizes the resistance elements. I get about 8 months of heating with only the heat pump and this is in Maine. I too was in the same position as the OP, $100/month for DHW with oil. We also installed a heat pump upstairs and use the pellet stove for the downstairs, oil use so far this year $0.00


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## boosted3g (Nov 20, 2012)

All i can say is wow that is a lot of money for hot water.  My total electric bill is about 80 per month with electric everything.  Im the spring and fall i run the heat pump and my bill jumps to 120ish.  Ill have to check the full electric bill to see what in paying but i do remember seeing 7.3 cent per kilowatt or something like that.


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## drizler (Nov 20, 2012)

I went and put in a 40 gallon in an upstairs closet with a blanket 2 years ago.    The oil pig got turned off and my electric bill went up $25/ month give or take and thats with 3 of us.    On lowest setting it is fine though if I want to fill the 50 gallon whirlpool tub it has to be turned up all the way.    Overall it was one fantastic move.   The tank was under 200 at Lowes and the wire was about 100 since the breaker was across the house and I needed almost the whole box of 10 gauge.   Slap in a breaker and run some plastic CPVC , it was a breeze.  I'm used to soldered copper and comparatively it's a snap.   Absolutely no detractors that I can think of.    If you want the tank to last just make sure to drain it every year or so and change the annode in about 5 years.       I heard all the tales of super high electric bills and believed them for years, not any more.    I started space heating the parts of the house the pellet stove didn't reach a while back and pretty much gravitated into electric for most of it.    So far this Fall I haven't even lit the pellet stove.    Even with NYSEG rates electric just keeps looking better and better.


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## maple1 (Nov 20, 2012)

How much did you spend on oil before putting in the electric?


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## subsailor (Nov 20, 2012)

I installed a 50 gal. electric a few years back. My electric went up about $30.00/month. A lot cheaper that DHW from a 50 year old boiler. I had budgeted $100/mo. for hot water with the boiler.


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## 343amc (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm electric everything and my average bill is $110 or so this time of year. Add about $70/mo when the AC is running. No propane, no natural gas, oil furnace. Rates here are about .12 kwH from what I can figure with taxes, distribution and taxes. 

I bought a Richmond 9 year warranty water heater at Menards 10 years ago. I think it was $225 or so.


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## DneprDave (Nov 20, 2012)

Wow, I've never seen an oil fired home hot water heater! It must be an east coast thing.

Gas and electric, that's all they have around here.

Do they still make them?

Dave


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## imacman (Nov 20, 2012)

DneprDave said:


> Wow, I've never seen an oil fired home hot water heater! It must be an east coast thing.
> 
> Gas and electric, that's all they have around here.
> 
> ...


www.bockwaterheaters.com/products/oil_water_heaters.html

I had one in my home until about 5 yrs ago.....replaced it with a Bock indirect unit.


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## subsailor (Nov 20, 2012)

DneprDave said:


> Wow, I've never seen an oil fired home hot water heater! It must be an east coast thing.
> 
> Gas and electric, that's all they have around here.
> 
> ...


 
In most cases the DHW comes off an oil fired boiler for baseboard hot water heating system. However, they do make just an oil fired hot water system and on demand kerosene fired systems.


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## Harvey Schneider (Nov 20, 2012)

saladdin said:


> RESIDENTIAL RATES - SCHEDULE RS
> Customer Charge
> Per Delivery Point Per Month $19.46
> Energy Charge Cents Per Kwh 9.122¢


That's TVA at work. The Federal government built an incredible power generation and distribution system based in the Tennessee valley. Its purpose was to supply power for the aluminum industry. Everybody in the area benefits from it. All of us paid for it.


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## nate379 (Nov 20, 2012)

That is about what we pay for juice.

My last bill was $82.23 for 523kWh.  Works out to roughly $0.16 per kWh



saladdin said:


> Jesus H Christ! Sitting at around 9 cents here.


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## saladdin (Nov 20, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> That's TVA at work. The Federal government built an incredible power generation and distribution system based in the Tennessee valley. Its purpose was to supply power for the aluminum industry. Everybody in the area benefits from it. All of us paid for it.


 
Yep. Just miles away from our TVA plant. That Fed program gave a lot of people around here jobs including grandparents. Still seeing the benefit of the cheap electricity too.


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## New Hampshire Jim (Nov 20, 2012)

Question: If you install a electric hot water heater and are able to not use the oil fired boiler all summer to make domestic hot water are there any bad things that can happen to your boiler by not running It?. Like leaks from the boiler sections. I have heard this could happen
Jim


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## kofkorn (Nov 20, 2012)

The state of MA is currently offering a rebate of $1000 on a hybrid heat pump heater if it's installed by 12/31.  It's listed as a rebate on a replacement heater our for new construction.

We just installed ours and are looking forward to some significant savings in the coming months.

--Kofkorn


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## mrjohneel (Nov 20, 2012)

Hey thanks for this. It's making me really calculate my non-heating-season oil use for my hot water. I think I used (just me) about 70 gallons of oil over five months, or 14 gallons a month at $4/gal. That's $56 month. Now I have to figure out what I'd spend on electricity for a hot water heater. Thanks.


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## saladdin (Nov 21, 2012)

kofkorn said:


> The state of MA is currently offering a rebate of $1000 on a hybrid heat pump heater if it's installed by 12/31. It's listed as a rebate on a replacement heater our for new construction.
> 
> We just installed ours and are looking forward to some significant savings in the coming months.
> 
> --Kofkorn


 
That is a heck of a deal. I'm in TN, is your hybrid in a seperate room by itself? I looked at these but the requirements were crazy.


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## maple1 (Nov 21, 2012)

New Hampshire Jim said:


> Question: If you install a electric hot water heater and are able to not use the oil fired boiler all summer to make domestic hot water are there any bad things that can happen to your boiler by not running It?. Like leaks from the boiler sections. I have heard this could happen
> Jim


 
You might have leaks appear, or might not. If so, they're more likely to come from places like fitting joints & circulator pump gasket surfaces. Not sure about 'sections'? Most boilers are all one piece - might depend on what you've got for a boiler & how old it is too. Mine would weep from some fittings & circ pump flanges. Only one way to find out - that's turn it off for a while & let it cool down & see what happens.


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## maple1 (Nov 21, 2012)

saladdin said:


> That is a heck of a deal. I'm in TN, is your hybrid in a seperate room by itself? I looked at these but the requirements were crazy.


 
I don't know why it would be required that a HP water heater be in its own room, or don't think I've read of requirements I'd call crazy. Can you elaborate?


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## JDenyer236 (Nov 21, 2012)

saladdin said:


> That is a heck of a deal. I'm in TN, is your hybrid in a seperate room by itself? I looked at these but the requirements were crazy.


 Hybrids do not require there own seperate room. They do require about 700cuft of unobstructed space to allow for free air circulation, garages in the warmer climates are ideal, basements are good in the cooler climates as they are below grade and some heat comes from the earth that is below grade. Most won't run the heat pumps below a certain ambient temp, mine runs down to 45F, after that it uses standard elements just like a regular electric water heater. In Maine I get about 8 months of heating just off the heat pump, runs me about $20 per month. With just the elements it runs $50-60 per month. Hybrids make perfect sense in certain situations. They do produce some noise, and they exhaust cold air into the room that they are in. One needs to take into account for these "features" before buying one.


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## velvetfoot (Nov 21, 2012)

I guess if you thought of a basement located heat pump water heater as a dehumidifer, maybe you could turn the heat pump part off in the winter so it doesn't get so cold down there.  You'd still be ahead of straight resistance on a year-round basis.


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## maple1 (Nov 21, 2012)

If I was in a situation that I was needing to run a dehumidifier in the summer, I would waste no time in buying a HP water heater and getting rid of the dehumidifier. You would even gain some air conditioning from it - that maybe even could be ducted to where it would be most appreciated.


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## Harvey Schneider (Nov 21, 2012)

mrjohneel said:


> Now I have to figure out what I'd spend on electricity for a hot water heater. Thanks.


Don't forget to add in the non recoverable cost of the water heater. If a tank heater is good for only ten years and costs $600 you have an additional $60/yr expense. I don't think that will tip the scales, but it should be included.


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## JDenyer236 (Nov 21, 2012)

maple1 said:


> If I was in a situation that I was needing to run a dehumidifier in the summer, I would waste no time in buying a HP water heater and getting rid of the dehumidifier. You would even gain some air conditioning from it - that maybe even could be ducted to where it would be most appreciated.


 We run a dehumidifier year round in the basement, seems the HP water heater does a great job of removing sensible heat, but not latent heat. I get at most a quart of water per day from the water heater, but at least 50pints per day from my dehumidifier, and this is in the summer when it is humid. I wouldn't install a HP water heater with the hopes of replacing my dehumidifier.


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## JDenyer236 (Nov 21, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Don't forget to add in the non recoverable cost of the water heater. If a tank heater is good for only ten years and costs $600 you have an additional $60/yr expense. I don't think that will tip the scales, but it should be included.


 Exactly, you need to include equipment and any maintenance costs to figure out your return on investment. Here is my quick example. I was using 100gals/year of oil just in the 3 summer months for DHW productions. This was at $3.49/gal. So my oil cost was $116/mo. New water heater was $1000, and I use $20/mo for electric. Assuming a 10 year life span my costs including equipment are $29 per month. This is an $87/mo savings, or $1044 per year, essentially making it a 1 year payback on my investment. Even if I ran straight electric and not the heat pump my monthy cost would be $69/mo for a savings of $47/mo or a 2.5 year payback period. My electric rates are $0.14/kwh. As you can see with oil at such a high cost even a cheap straight electric water heater can save you some $$$ with a fairly quick payback. DHW generated by a tankless coil which is most common in the northeast is highly inefficient, that boiler stays hot year round just in case someone needs hot water, most of that heat goes up the chimney in the form of standby losses.


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## maple1 (Nov 21, 2012)

JDenyer236 said:


> We run a dehumidifier year round in the basement, seems the HP water heater does a great job of removing sensible heat, but not latent heat. I get at most a quart of water per day from the water heater, but at least 50pints per day from my dehumidifier, and this is in the summer when it is humid. I wouldn't install a HP water heater with the hopes of replacing my dehumidifier.


 
6.5 gallons of water a day from the dehumidifier? At least? Year round?

Holy crap. That's a pile of water from the air. The odd time I use one, it's after putting damp wood in and the humidity is very high - I think then the absolute most I ever got was maybe 4 gallons a day. That was at first, then it would decrease as things got drier. Are you sure there aren't bigger issues? Is that typical? I really don't know, our basement is usually quite dry so don't use a dehumidifier much at all - not at all this year.


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## kofkorn (Nov 21, 2012)

saladdin said:


> I'm in TN, is your hybrid in a seperate room by itself?



We have it in our basement, so space isn't a concern.  With the pellet stove and solar panels on the roof, I hate using two tanks of oil each year just for DHW.  I figure that this should save us some big money and with the cost of the heater covered by the rebate, the payback is nearly immediate.

--Kofkorn


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## MarkF48 (Nov 21, 2012)

I installed a 40 gallon Marathon electric water heater in December 2009 to replace a failed 25 year old oil fired Carlin water heater (this was a separate water heater as I have an oil fired forced hot air furnace). Back in 2008 I had started an "electric bill" spreadsheet to track electric usage. It's just myself and my wife. We live in Central Massachusetts and get our juice from NationalGrid. Back in 2008 the "real" cost of a kwh was about $0.16/kwh. In 2011 it was about $0.138. The replacement cost of the oil fired water heater would have been about $2500-3000 per the estimate from our oil service. The Marathon electric  was about $800 and I did the install. The oil water heater also had a yearly cleaning and maintenance which ran about $70. Overall very happy with the Marathon and due to it's construction I don't believe I'll ever need to replace it.
Depending on where you live some utilities/COOPs were offering rebates on Marathon's.

http://www.marathonheaters.com/consumers.html


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## saladdin (Nov 21, 2012)

kofkorn said:


> We have it in our basement, so space isn't a concern. With the pellet stove and solar panels on the roof, I hate using two tanks of oil each year just for DHW. I figure that this should save us some big money and with the cost of the heater covered by the rebate, the payback is nearly immediate.
> 
> --Kofkorn


 Thanks.

How loud is the thing?


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## saladdin (Nov 21, 2012)

maple1 said:


> I don't know why it would be required that a HP water heater be in its own room, or don't think I've read of requirements I'd call crazy. Can you elaborate?


 
 This is the one I looked at:

Where can a GeoSpring hybrid electric heat pump water heater be installed?




 
The GeoSpring water heater should be installed in a clean, dry area as near as practical to the area of greatest hot water demand to prevent long un-insulated hot water lines from wasting energy and water. It is designed to go into any common indoor installation area including basements, attics, closets, and utility rooms. If the room is smaller than 700 cubic feet, the room should have a louvered door or a door which has vents installed near the top and bottom of the door. Each of these vents should have an area of 240 square inches.


My water heater is in the kitchen (basements are not common here). With electric WH you can just throw it in the corner no concern for clearance for fans, heat ( it is a heat pump of course). etc...


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## kofkorn (Nov 21, 2012)

saladdin said:


> How loud is the thing?



I honestly haven't fired it up yet.  I installed the vacuum break on the wrong side of the system, and I need to correct that before filling it up.  I'll finish that this weekend.

--Kofkorn


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## JDenyer236 (Nov 21, 2012)

maple1 said:


> 6.5 gallons of water a day from the dehumidifer? At least? Year round?
> 
> Holy crap. That's a pile of water from the air. The odd time I use one, it's after putting damp wood in and the humidity is very high - I think then the absolute most I ever got was maybe 4 gallons a day. That was at first, then it would decrease as things got drier. Are you sure there aren't bigger issues? Is that typical? I really don't know, our basement is usually quite dry so don't use a dehumidifier much at all - not at all this year.


 No this is not year round, mostly spring and summer, I have a typical Maine basement that is always damp, and it does leak when it rains heavily. Fortunatly this is not a finished basement  Without the dehumidifier the basement would smell moldy and it's not good for the wooden parts of the houses structure.


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## BradH70 (Nov 21, 2012)

I spoke with a local HVAC contractor and he said that he has been installing a lot of electric water heaters lately. I asked him about the electric bill and he believes about a $40/month increase is what people are seeing.

As for leaving the boiler inactive, it is not a problem because I don't have the on demand tank and coil. He recommended just giving it a throughout cleaning before shutting it down so that when it is turned on again, it will actual work without any issues.

Install would be about $500 including a 50 gallon metal tank.


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## saladdin (Nov 22, 2012)

BradH70 said:


> I spoke with a local HVAC contractor and he said that he has been installing a lot of electric water heaters lately. I asked him about the electric bill and he believes about a $40/month increase is what people are seeing.
> 
> As for leaving the boiler inactive, it is not a problem because I don't have the on demand tank and coil. He recommended just giving it a throughout cleaning before shutting it down so that when it is turned on again, it will actual work without any issues.
> 
> Install would be about $500 including a 50 gallon metal tank.


 
Does that include running the electric to it? If so, that's not horrible because a 50 gallon tank is around 300-350ish.


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## BradH70 (Nov 23, 2012)

saladdin said:


> Does that include running the electric to it? If so, that's not horrible because a 50 gallon tank is around 300-350ish.



No, that does not include the electric. I will do that myself. 

Your right, it is not a bad quote. If I did it myself I would have to go out and buy all the necessary plumbing tools and supplies and would probably end up saving $200 at most. I have no experience doing plumbing so if I have a plumber do it I get the piece of mind that it was done right.


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## lecomte38 (Nov 23, 2012)

The break even point is $.105 per kw at 100% efficiency vs $3.65 per gal at 85% efficiency.  I have the highest electric rates by far at .195 per kw.  (OUCH) I have both electric and oil.  I run the electric in summer and oil in winter.  I believe the heat loss of having to heat 14 Gallons of boiler water to pump it thru the Super Store water heater justifies using the electric.  ( a good comparison calculator for all fuels can be found at :  http://nepacrossroads.com/fuel-comparison-calculator.php


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## kofkorn (Nov 23, 2012)

lecomte38 said:


> The break even point is $.105 per kw at 100% efficiency vs $3.65 per gal at 85% efficiency.



The thing about the heat pump water heaters is that they are actually able to get better than 100% efficiency.  By drawing heat from the air, they can actually add more heat to the water than if just the electricity was used.  I think a typical air source heat pump can achieve about 150% efficiency.  Ground source pumps can get around 300%.


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## TheMightyMoe (Nov 25, 2012)

In regards to interior heat pump water heaters.

They are great, except you use your warm house air to heat your water. A lot of the efficiency you gain, could have been gained with a tempering tank at room temperature.
This has been one of the bigger arguments VS the government forcing the use of heat pump electric water heaters on us northern climates. We want the heat to stay in our house!



Also Brad the sweating in of a water heater is one of the easier home projects, that a lot of plumbers you pay will do very quickly, but not do a lot of simple things.

1. Install the water heater on 2-4 inches of insulated foam. (15$) Cold ground sucks away heat, this also raises your water heater which is preferred.
2. Use di-electric nipple with plastic lining when connecting pipes to water heater. Also ground your hot water side to the cold side. (5-20$?)
3. Plumb in heat traps (5-10$?) Supposedly these save 10-20$ a year, so they can almost pay for the water heater.

I would demand these 3 things. The reason you are switching is to save money, and these will maximize your savings, and ensure a longer water heater life. Electrolytic corrosion is usually what kills water heaters, and the plumbing around it.

I would also buy a replacement anode rod (40-60 usually$), and tie it to the water heater with a change date @ 4-5 years from install. If you pull old one, and it looks fine, wait a couple years.

It's funny how simple things, can get complicated when you care.


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## StihlHead (Nov 25, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> That's TVA at work. The Federal government built an incredible power generation and distribution system based in the Tennessee valley. Its purpose was to supply power for the aluminum industry. Everybody in the area benefits from it. All of us paid for it.


 
Its the same here in the PNW; the gov't built tons of hydroelectroc dams for refining aluminum. So we have cheap electricity which has been cheaper lately as the rains have been very heavy in the past few years.

My monthly bill for electric everything exept heat (100% wood stove heat here) is less than the OP for hot water alone. I have a simple electric 40 gallon hot water heater from HD. I think it cost about $300. The spendy electric water heaters there are the same as the cheap ones; its only a waranty that you are paying more money for. Adding 220v wiring and a circuit breaker at the service panel would add more to the install costs, as would a permit (here a permit for adding a DHW is about $150). Romex wiring now is really expensive with the high cost of copper. Oil heat is really steep these days, with the price of gasoline and oil being through the roof. It is by far the most expensive heating in this area. NG and wood are the cheapest. Switching to electric DHW from oil would likely return the cost of converting in the first year though, if you are paying/using that much in fuel oil.

As for figuring the cost of electricity, you already have electricity and hence an electric bill, so adding the monthy service charge to figure the cost of adding hot water to the electirc rate per KWhr is pretty silly. Just add the costs per KWhr when figuring the cost of electric DHW. Here the cost per KWhr is: 6.8 cents for energy use, 0.2 cents for transmission, and 3.1 cents for distribution for a total of 10.1 cents per KWhr. Then there are about 10 different adjustments that come out to about 1 cent per KWhr credit, and taxes that suck back about 1 cent KWhr (funny how that works) so overall I pay 10 cents a KWhr here. Basic service charge here is $9 a month, but I would pay that anyway, regardless of the DHW fuel. I would stay away from heat pump DHW myself. Gimmiks and rebates and lots of fly-by-night companies there. Heat pumps can be very efficient, but they can also be installed wrong and they cost a lot more, and often times they only pay for themselves through rebates, tax incentives or very long term use.

I believe in KISS... keep it simple, stupid!


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## maple1 (Nov 25, 2012)

Grounding the hot water side to the cold water side? Never heard of it - what does that do?


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## TheMightyMoe (Nov 25, 2012)

I only know the basics, but your pipes are generally grounded to get rid of any stray current/safety, but sometimes your hot side is missed / not grounded.

By making sure the hot side is grounded, you give any electrical current a place to go, which lowers corrosion. Usually you just run a piece of #6 / #8 copper wire between the hot/cold above the water heater.

Someone else can probably explain it better.






Also if I remember right, most of the western world does not use electric grounding like the USA does.


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## StihlHead (Nov 25, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Grounding the hot water side to the cold water side? Never heard of it - what does that do?


 
Using di-electrics at the DHW will electrically isolate the hot and cold water lines, and thus bonding is required to 're-'connect them. Grounding the hot water pipes stops any potential voltage from forming on the hot water side of the plumbing. The di-electrics stop bi-metal corrosion from happening between the copper pipes and steel water tank.

Heat traps can be plumbed in for 'free'. Basically all you do is put an up and down 'bell curve' in flexible copper plumbing (hot and cold lines) from the top of the hot water tank. The curve acts as a heat trap and stops convection heat from circulating water (and heat) from your water heater when the hot water is not running. Convection heat rises, but will not fall naturally, which makes these types of simple heat traps work. BTW: Felxible copper water pipes are required for plumbing DHW in many western states for earthquake codes so they can flex during an earthquake without bursting.


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## save$ (Nov 25, 2012)

maple1 said:


> Heating DHW with oil in the non-heating season is a losing proposition no matter how it's sliced. I recently yanked out my wood/oil boiler that did our heat & hot water year round for the last 17 years, and replaced it with a new wood boiler that will do both when it's fired, an electric boiler for heat backup (will be rarely used), and electric hot water tank for DHW when the wood boiler isn't being fired. Along with heat storage.
> 
> BTW this thread might get a lot more input if it wasn't in the pellet section - maybe the DIY one?


I have an oil fired hot water heater.  Not hot water baseboard heat.  This has its own burner and only sips oil.  My oil tank gage barely moves at all during the non heating season.  Last year we used less than 150 gallons for the year and that includes heat oil used to fire the forced hot air furnace to come on when the outside temps drop into the teens.  It has been this way for years.  Had to replace the water tank after 20 years.  Cost me about 1300 for the tank alone.


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## maple1 (Nov 25, 2012)

The grounding thing I've never seen or heard of. Huh.

I do have a ground on my cold water pipe just after the T to the hot water tank feed.

That exact thing (at top of tank) won't work on mine since there's new pex in the way - but I could do it further away where the pex goes back to copper on its way to the taps.


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## BradH70 (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, I finally took the plunge and installed an electric water heater. I was in need of oil and at $3.80 a gallon it was going to be just about the same cost to install the new water tank -- $475 for the 125 gallon min. I made up a spread sheet with all the supplies needed including plumbing tools and bought every thing in one shot. The price was $536.70. I took this past Friday off from work and did the install myself, both plumbing (first time) and electrical connections. It took me most of the day to do it, but this included cleaning up the space were the tank was to be placed, draining the water lines and the existing tank and then installing the new tank. I had only one issue and that was with the Teflon tape that I used at the NPT couplings on the tank. For whatever reason, the Teflon tape did not seal the threads and I had drips at both the hot and cold connections. I ended up having to go back to the store to get Teflon paste and new NPT couplings to redo that section. Because I had put a ball valve on both cold and hot lines into the new tank, replacing the NPT couplings was not that big of deal and with the Teflon paste, no leaks!

I also kept the Boiler Mate connected and add a ball valve on the Hot water line coming from it. This allows me to completely isolate the boiler mate from the DW lines and drain the boiler mate, yet still have the ability to use it for DHW if ever needed it in an emergency. I now have the oil furnace shut down! No more oil consumption!

Next step is to insulate the pipes and get the boiler serviced so that it will be ready to run next time I need to use it.

One observation so far is that the water coming from the electric tank is much hotter then the water that was coming from the boiler mate. Both are set to 120 so I'm not sure why there was such a difference in water temperature.

Once I get some electric bills accumulated with the new tank, I will post the additional electric usage that I'm seeing. I hope that it is close to the rated usage of $520/year. This would be a significant savings over the cost of the oil.


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## moey (Mar 26, 2013)

Nice work, you work fast or I work slow took me several weekends. Although I had to put in a subpanel as well, my panel was very full. I also just put in a 80 gallon tank GE/Rheem turned on two days ago. Works great my water is hotter as well I think my boiler water was not 120 despite the settings. I put a mixing valve in as well I have not tried it though yet.

Electric and oil are pretty close to even in terms of btu cost around me my electric is 13.3kw hr. For hot water though its far far cheaper if your not using your boiler for anything else.

You should add insulation to your two heat traps it will save you a little bit in the long run. If not it will make it look like you really know what your doing.


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## BradH70 (Mar 26, 2013)

Thanks moey. I'm defiantly going to insulate the pipes. I did not do it right away because I wanted to make sure there wasn't going to be any leaks.

I'm pretty sure I will see some savings. The only reason the boiler was staying hot was for for the DHW since the pellet stoves heat the house entirely.

I'm also considering switching to a different electric provider (ENH Power). They are charging $0.0728/kwh versus $0.0954/kwh. Sounds like a good savings.


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## AddictiveStew (Mar 26, 2013)

I'm so happy to have read this!  I'm planning to do this myself very soon.  I'm contemplating just taking the dive now and charging it since I'll be seeing the savings immediately.  I have a very old boiler that is only 65% efficient at generating heat for the house.  I can only imagine how inefficient it is heating hot water!


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## moey (Mar 26, 2013)

AddictiveStew said:


> I'm so happy to have read this! I'm planning to do this myself very soon. I'm contemplating just taking the dive now and charging it since I'll be seeing the savings immediately. I have a very old boiler that is only 65% efficient at generating heat for the house. I can only imagine how inefficient it is heating hot water!


 
I have a cast iron boiler from the mid 80s. Maintains temp, inactive coil, large mass you get the idea. My estimate was that I was going through about 1-1.5 gallons a day just to make hot water. Go big (80 gallons) if you have a family electric tanks don't recover fast.


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## AddictiveStew (Mar 26, 2013)

moey said:


> I have a cast iron boiler from the mid 80s. Maintains temp, inactive coil, large mass you get the idea. My estimate was that I was going through about 1-1.5 gallons a day just to make hot water.


  I can only imagine what I'm paying.  I just bought this house last year but it came with a VERY old boiler (circa 1930's or 40's I believe?) which is an old coal boiler converted to oil.  I don't doubt I'm using at least that much.


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## BradH70 (Mar 26, 2013)

AddictiveStew said:


> I can only imagine what I'm paying. I just bought this house last year but it came with a VERY old boiler (circa 1930's or 40's I believe?) which is an old coal boiler converted to oil. I don't doubt I'm using at least that much.


 
My boiler is a 10 year old Burnham and the efficiency label states 82.5%. I'm guessing it is no longer that efficient. We are a family of 4 (very young kids though) and I was using 20-25 gallons of oil per month for hot water. In my area oil has been fluctuating between $3.60 and $3.80 per gallon. After months of number crunching and being on the fence, the empty oil tank and oil at $3.80/gallon made the decision for me.

I've talked to lots of people that have installed an electric water tank, some with small families and some with large families. Most everyone guessed at a $40-$50 dollar increase in the electric bill after the tank was installed. Are rates here in NH with PSNH are $0.16/kwh (that includes all fees).


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## MarkF48 (Mar 26, 2013)

I can't quite see from the picture, but did you install a drain pan under the tank?
http://www.lowes.com/pd_317905-1171...RL=?Ntt=hot+water+heater+drain+pan&facetInfo=

When I changed over to an electric DHW tank the big change was that my cellar didn't stay as warm from the heat dissipated from the oil fired one.


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## BradH70 (Mar 26, 2013)

Hi Mark, nope, no drain pan. Not sure if I will pay for that later in the future or not, I guess time will tell. I have the tank sitting on a few bricks then a 2" think piece of rigid foam insulation to isolate the bottom of the tank from the cold concrete and bricks.

My basement is already cold in the winter since the furnace was running only to heat the DHW. So far, it does not seem to be any colder then before the electric tank.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 26, 2013)

Brad, what do you mean when you say 120 gallon min?  Is it a 120 gallon tank?


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## BradH70 (Mar 26, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> Brad, what do you mean when you say 120 gallon min?  Is it a 120 gallon tank?



Actually it is 125 gallons and this is the minimum gallons per delivery that my oil company will deliver if I'm not on an auto delivery plan.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 27, 2013)

BradH70 said:


> Actually it is 125 gallons and this is the minimum gallons per delivery that my oil company will deliver if I'm not on an auto delivery plan.


Thanks, I was thinking the new water heater was 125 gallons; it didn't look it.


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## AddictiveStew (Mar 27, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Heating DHW with oil in the non-heating season is a losing proposition no matter how it's sliced. I recently yanked out my wood/oil boiler that did our heat & hot water year round for the last 17 years, and replaced it with a new wood boiler that will do both when it's fired, *an electric boiler for heat backup* (will be rarely used), and electric hot water tank for DHW when the wood boiler isn't being fired. Along with heat storage.
> 
> BTW this thread might get a lot more input if it wasn't in the pellet section - maybe the DIY one?


 
I was looking at electric boilers and just ripping out the old oil beast altogether.  What has your experience been?  I'm hoping with the pellet stove that the boiler will just be backup heat and that's it.  I was looking at this one:  http://c326988.r88.cf1.rackcdn.com/EB-4.pdf


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## BradH70 (Mar 27, 2013)

Before you make any decisions on a "back up" furnace or heat source, you should consider how long you will be living in the house and that the next person coming in may not want to use a pellet stove. Your best bet is to replace your old furnace with a "back up" furnace that would be considered a standard heating unit for your area.

In my area the standard heat source/furnace is oil or propane, so I would not consider taking out the oil furnace as this would make selling the house difficult. Not everyone wants to heat with pellets or wood and considering the electric rates in my area, heating the house with only an electric boiler would be very expensive.

Also consider that if you lost power and your pellet stove went down, it would take a serious generator to run that electric boiler! Even the small one.


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## AddictiveStew (Mar 27, 2013)

BradH70 said:


> Before you make any decisions on a "back up" furnace or heat source, you should consider how long you will be living in the house and that the next person coming in may not want to use a pellet stove. Your best bet is to replace your old furnace with a "back up" furnace that would be considered a standard heating unit for your area.
> 
> In my area the standard heat source/furnace is oil or propane, so I would not consider taking out the oil furnace as this would make selling the house difficult. Not everyone wants to heat with pellets or wood and considering the electric rates in my area, heating the house with only an electric boiler would be very expensive.
> 
> Also consider that if you lost power and your pellet stove went down, it would take a serious generator to run that electric boiler! Even the small one.


 
I was just looking at the electric usage.  WOW.  I'll stick with your advice.  I just loathe oil... I should post a pic of my old beast, she's HUGE and terribly inefficient.


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## moey (Mar 27, 2013)

BradH70 said:


> Before you make any decisions on a "back up" furnace or heat source, you should consider how long you will be living in the house and that the next person coming in may not want to use a pellet stove. Your best bet is to replace your old furnace with a "back up" furnace that would be considered a standard heating unit for your area.
> 
> In my area the standard heat source/furnace is oil or propane, so I would not consider taking out the oil furnace as this would make selling the house difficult. Not everyone wants to heat with pellets or wood and considering the electric rates in my area, heating the house with only an electric boiler would be very expensive.
> 
> Also consider that if you lost power and your pellet stove went down, it would take a serious generator to run that electric boiler! Even the small one.


 
Many electric boilers modulate you could in fact run them with a regular generator 5000w size and up, they have circuit breakers you can flip inside the unit. It would be a pain though. Oil/Propane is pretty standard around me too, but electric is getting really close to being equal in cost in my opinion when you consider the real efficiencies of systems. For a small house I would prefer electric now.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm not certain about my own electric tariff, but could there be demand charges if consumption goes past a certain point?


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## ScotL (Mar 27, 2013)

The rates in Maine for demand charges are beyond extreme. That's all I have to say about that.


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## moey (Mar 27, 2013)

ScotL said:


> The rates in Maine for demand charges are beyond extreme. That's all I have to say about that.


 
Business?? How do you end up with demand charges on a residential service?


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## MasterMech (Mar 28, 2013)

You guys don't want to see the electric bill for my job.

The building I'm in is currently pulling 1800 amps @ 480V. We do that 24/7. 

864Kw for 24 hours = 20,736 KwH every day

How many KwH do you pay for every month?


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## Mr A (Mar 28, 2013)

saladdin said:


> Anything below 40 and the heat pump would struggle.





saladdin said:


> Stay away from heat pump where you are unless the technology has really changed in the past few years. I live in TN with our winters being mild. Anything below 40 and the heat pump would struggle.


 Just about everyone has a electric heat pump in my area. I haven't turned mine on since I put in the wood burner. I kept the thermostat at 65 last winter. I was cold. This winter I kept it off, I was warm. The difference in the bill was $50-$70 a month. The heat pump is only efficient  atr +/ -20 degrees the outside temperature. It is OK in my climate most of the year. It the few months of 100+ heat and the month of freeze that really makes it work overtime.  I have a 5 yr old electric water heater, well insulated but the bill still goes up $10 a month in a cold month.


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## woodgeek (Mar 28, 2013)

Mr A said:


> Just about everyone has a electric heat pump in my area. I haven't turned mine on since I put in the wood burner. I kept the thermostat at 65 last winter. I was cold. This winter I kept it off, I was warm. The difference in the bill was $50-$70 a month. The heat pump is only efficient atr +/ -20 degrees the outside temperature. It is OK in my climate most of the year. It the few months of 100+ heat and the month of freeze that really makes it work overtime. I have a 5 yr old electric water heater, well insulated but the bill still goes up $10 a month in a cold month.


 
One guy's cheap heat is another guys expensive heat.  Where I am, near Philly, it gets cold enough, and a HP is cheap in the sense of costing about half what oil or propane costs, or expensive in the sense of costing a little more than natural gas would.  But out east, there are a lot of oil burners without gas access who would be happy to switch to a heat pump, and save a bundle.  Without some airsealing and the HP, I would be paying ~$4000/yr for space heat, as many of my neighbors do! 

I think the earlier mention of heat pumps was re heat pump water heaters, HPWHs, discussed in many threads around here.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 28, 2013)

moey said:


> Business?? How do you end up with demand charges on a residential service?


 
There are something like 29 published tariff schedules for electricity delivery from CMP as long as your use meets the conditions and requirements you can enter into an agreement with CMP using any of the tariffs that apply.  Some of those tariffs have demand considerations.

ScotL definitely knows what the prices are for those tariffs, he is running an operating pellet mill, Maine Woods Pellet to name it.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Mar 28, 2013)

MasterMech said:


> You guys don't want to see the electric bill for my job.
> 
> The building I'm in is currently pulling 1800 amps @ 480V. We do that 24/7.
> 
> ...


 
For the 12 month period ending 03/11/2013 5383 kWh


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## moey (Mar 29, 2013)

Some states are running rebates concurrently with the Fed rebate on hybrid water heaters. For Maine at least its $600 off fed and state. I got a regular one because I wanted a 80 gallon one but if you were in the market for a 40 or 50 gallon one you could find hybrid ones for ~$500 after the rebates.


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## WES999 (Mar 30, 2013)

I posted some of this before but here is an update. About 3 1/2 years ago I replaced the oil fired tank less
DHW heater that was costing about $100/mo to run with a 80 gal electric ( got it off CL for $50).
I installed an hour meter to record the time the water heater on time. As of today the heater has run 925 hrs,
in 43.3 months, comes out to $15/mo. To be fair I have a solar pre-heater that runs in the summer.

BTW when I first installed the water heater I used Teflon tape, I had to take it all apart and use the PTFE paste,
I will never use tape again. I have a drain pan under the water heater that runs in to the sump pit, just in case.
I added 3 1/2 FG insulation and covered it with reflective bubble insulation, looks like a silver bullet.
Probably paid for itself in less 4 months.

View attachment 98209


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## BradH70 (Apr 22, 2013)

So, this may be a little premature but I still decided to post the info.

I installed my electric DHW heater on March 22. I just received my first electric bill with the addition of the electric heater and the bill went up by about $35 from the previous month. This is much better then the close to $100/month it was costing in oil to heat the water.


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