# Power Bill... Thoughts?



## PV2U (Feb 10, 2011)

Greetings Gents (or 'Gentesses' as applicable)!!   =o)

White Pine's recent comment about his power bill prompted me to start a thread - I am heating only 1,700+ sq ft (2 story, but upper floor probably only 35-40% of total area) with a heat pump (single unit, perhaps 5 years old) and I used 4200+ kWhs this past billing cycle.  Now, I live near Richmond, VA and, according to the bill, the average daily temp for that time period was 33* = not all that harsh.  My house is about 20 years old, and is in good repair.  

While my electrical rate is supposed to be something around $.08/kWh, that is rendered pretty much immaterial by the "Wholesale Power Cost Adjustment" fee my electrical cooperative adds in every month.  For example, this past month when I used the 4241 kWhs, the "Wholesale Power Cost Adjustment" fee ($115 'WPCA' fee along with the 3 or 4 of the other obligatory penny ante fees/taxes = $.12+/kWh when all considered) turned a $384 outrage into a $518 abomination!!  The good news is that it beat my previous "record" by about $22!!   :shut: 

A couple years ago, I had a rep from the power company come out and give me a "audit" which equated to him wandering around the house with a handfull of other folk's electrical bills which were higher than mine and telling me how lucky I was that mine wasn't higher (okay, that was only 75% of the audit - he did poke around a little, but didn't have any meaningful insights).  Not exactly a study in the scientific method!  hehe!

All right, all that said to provide a little context.  This past month's bill was the Redwood that broke the camel's back;  I simply MUST do something different.  Given the fact that this forum appears to be a clearing house for guys who have decided to do "something different", I thought I'd stop in here and see if anyone had any ideas where I should start, because I'm not sure what I'm going to do.  But I have to do SOMETHING even if it's wrong!  :OP

Guidance/Suggestions/Directions/Insults? :O)
Thanks!
Paul


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## mkling (Feb 10, 2011)

4200kW, thats a lot of juice!  Even in the middle of summer when I am running my pool pump a lot and my AC seemingly non-stop I have never approached anything like that!  At most maybe 1800-2000kW.  I would ditch the heat pump and start looking into wood burning appliances.  I have seen estimates that heating via electricity cost nearly double that of natural gas, wood or wood pellets per BTU.  I might start with looking into supplimenting with a pellet stove, if you want to ditch the heat pump all-together you could find a wood or pellet furnance that would do the job nicely for you, but given you heated space you gave I think they might be overkill.


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## jebatty (Feb 10, 2011)

One place to start is to estimate your btu load requirement. If the 4200 kwh month represents your heaviest heat demand period, let's assume that all of that is for heating (actually, most other electric use also ends up as heat anyway). Considering all of the kwh for heat, that equates to 4200 kwh x 3400 btu/kwh / 30 / 24 = 19800 btu/hr for an average 33* month.

If you begin to think about a high efficiency (80-85%) wood boiler, you might think about a minimum cost of $10,000 for the installation. And at the same time, depending on your situation, costs could run much higher. 

I'll let others run with this from here.


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## woodsmaster (Feb 10, 2011)

Have you checked the amount of insulation in the attick ? Most houses built 20 years ago need more insulation if it hasn't allready been done.


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## WhitePine (Feb 11, 2011)

There could be multiple reasons your electricity consumption is so high with a heat pump. Consider these. You likely have one or more of them going on.

Poor insulation.

Air infiltration and/or exfiltration.

Heat pump charge incorrect.

Air handler blower speed set wrong.

Dirty filter(s)s and/or condenser/evaporator.

Heat pump not sized for heating (considered normal, but then you light up the heat strips a lot in cold weather, if that's all you have for back up heat).

Duct work undersized, leaking, or poorly done (very common).

"Smart" thermostat turning the heat strips on needlessly in order to keep your temperature swing to a minimum (fairly common).

Fidgeting with the thermostat setting (manual version of the line above).

Setting back the thermostat at night (forces the heat strips on during the recovery period).

Trying to keep the house too warm.


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## PV2U (Feb 11, 2011)

MKLING:  dang right! It IS a lot!  And I've never FOUND the extension cord running from my house to the neighbor's, but it's not from lack of looking! HA! This place has always been a juice hog, for whatever reason.  I thought when I burned out the old unit that the new, efficient unit would make a huge difference, but, alas, twas not to be.

Jim:  thanks for running the numbers!  Ya know, $10K is steep for me, but to be honest, if I could just succeed in "getting one over on the man", it'd be worth a lot.  That cottonpicking Wholesale Adjustment Fee they charge me has just about gotten me to the point where I'd rather burn the dang money itself to keep warm than send it over to the power company.  I use a lot of power, and that's on me, but I can't hardly stand the insult they add to the injury!!  I don't know if going to gasification is, for me, overkill or not?  I dearly want an excuse to get something like that, but the winters here are pretty mild (extremely in compared to MN, etc.).  I probably heat from NOV-MAR, maybe?  Supposing the $10K or so is doable, and suppose I get a unit that can output 19800 btus (is that a lot, comparatively?) would an application such as mine need to have some storage?  The good news is that I have 6 woodchucks... er, I mean, kids!  :OD

Hey J.T., I just ran up there and checked, and, according to my trusty yard stick, there's about 10" in the attic - look like a blown fiberglass?  Yellow, sort of amorphous?  Not in batts like rolled yellow fiberglass, but appears to be pretty much the same stuff.  How's THAT for an expert-sounding explanation! hehe!  Anywho, whatever it is, is 10" enough?  I'm guessing it's no embarassment of riches, R-value wise, but I really have no idea.

Good Gravy, White Pine!  I'm prolly guilty on all counts!! HA!  I think from "Smart" down, I'm good.  We don't touch the thermostat hardly ever, and it's set at 68.  As far as the HP charge, Air In/Exfiltration, Air Handler blower speed and Heat Pump being sized correctly, I'll have to look into that.  Insulation-wise, I dunno.  It seems "standard", whatever that is - i.e., all walls have fiberglass batts, and the underside of the floor in the crawlspace is insulated likewise.  The filter probably isn't as clean as it should be, but I do tend to it now and again.  Good food for thought!

I've thought of having someone come out and do some sort of energy analysis and maybe point a thermal camera at the house, and do some legitimate tests (instead of telling me I'm lucky I don't have a 6,000 sq ft house/garage with the attending $600+ power bill one customer had, like the power company did = LOL).  Does anyone have any familiarity with that sort of evaluation?

Thanks for weighing in, guys.  Something simply MUST change here at the "Lil' Ponderosa"!


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## boatboy63 (Feb 11, 2011)

I feel your pain when it comes to electric. I attached the latest update that I have from my electric company and you can see how it is for me. My old house is over 100 yrs old for the main level but about 10 yrs for upstairs. We have went thru and added insulation but it still isn't perfect. Prior to the middle of January, we were only using the electric furnace for 10-12 hours a day (actually night). We had an old Buck Stove insert that was fired up around 8 AM and went until about 10PM. After that time when the temp dropped in the house, the furnace would come on. 
Since mid January, we installed the new Magnolia stove and the furnace has literally been unwired. The house has been warmer and the electric bill is $84 cheaper than December's, not to mention, this month's bill is for 5 more days. The outside temps have been just as cold for Jan as they were in Dec and my bill is only reflecting 2 weeks of 24/7 usage of my stove. It is supposed to be down to 14* tonight so I guess we will have to "put another log on the fire".
Take a look at how much my electric rate has went up in a year. Last year in Feb, I paid $333.08 for 4056 Kw/h. Last month, I paid $365.68 for 3606 Kw/h. In other words, I paid $32 more this year and used 450 Kw/h less. The problem is that I haven't had a raise in 3 years, but gas and groceries have went up.
I am building a gasification wood boiler, but the early winter caught me before I got it finished. Can't wait until next year and can look at these numbers again when the boiler is up. When it is going, I can even turn my electric water heater off and save another $50+ per month.


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## woodsmaster (Feb 11, 2011)

pv2u 10" isn't bad but it could use more. On blown fiberglass I don't Know r-value per inch ,but you should have r -50 to r-60 and I'm guessing you have around r-35 - r-40. im sure
adding more will help some but I don't think that it will be a cure all. There must be other issues somewhere. An energy audit sounds like a good idea.


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## WhitePine (Feb 11, 2011)

Boatboy, your rates are almost identical to ours.  We are all going to be paying for the damn TVA's Kingston ash spill for a long time. They even had the balls to give out bonuses to the management that should have been fired instead.  >:-(


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## Pat53 (Feb 11, 2011)

boatboy63 said:
			
		

> I feel your pain when it comes to electric. I attached the latest update that I have from my electric company and you can see how it is for me. My old house is over 100 yrs old for the main level but about 10 yrs for upstairs. We have went thru and added insulation but it still isn't perfect. Prior to the middle of January, we were only using the electric furnace for 10-12 hours a day (actually night). We had an old Buck Stove insert that was fired up around 8 AM and went until about 10PM. After that time when the temp dropped in the house, the furnace would come on.
> Since mid January, we installed the new Magnolia stove and the furnace has literally been unwired. The house has been warmer and the electric bill is $84 cheaper than December's, not to mention, this month's bill is for 5 more days. The outside temps have been just as cold for Jan as they were in Dec and my bill is only reflecting 2 weeks of 24/7 usage of my stove. It is supposed to be down to 14* tonight so I guess we will have to "put another log on the fire".
> Take a look at how much my electric rate has went up in a year. Last year in Feb, I paid $333.08 for 4056 Kw/h. Last month, I paid $365.68 for 3606 Kw/h. In other words, I paid $32 more this year and used 450 Kw/h less. The problem is that I haven't had a raise in 3 years, but gas and groceries have went up.
> I am building a gasification wood boiler, but the early winter caught me before I got it finished. Can't wait until next year and can look at these numbers again when the boiler is up. When it is going, I can even turn my electric water heater off and save another $50+ per month.



If I'm reading your bill right, you're only paying a little over .10/kwh, thats not bad, but the usage numbers are definitely high. Our electric provider has raised rates 18% in just the last 2 years. We pay almost .20/kwh now with all the BS charges included. We have no choice for our power, they are the only utility that serves our area. Bunch of F#$^%& crooks !


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## boatboy63 (Feb 11, 2011)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> [If I'm reading your bill right, you're only paying a little over .10/kwh, thats not bad, but the usage numbers are definitely high. Our electric provider has raised rates 18% in just the last 2 years. We pay almost .20/kwh now with all the BS charges included. We have no choice for our power, they are the only utility that serves our area. Bunch of F#$^%& crooks !


As I said before, the house is old and about 3500 sq ft overall. About 2400 of it is downstairs and was what was built in the 1890's and had little insulation. The upstairs that we built has R-19 in the walls and attic has 12-24" of fiberglass bat/blown in cellulose.
Considering we live in TN, (home of TVA which is the largest electrical supplier in the south), our rates are low in most people's eyes. It was just a few years ago when it was only 7 cents a kw/h. Considering most of my state has a lower median income than up north, it has a dramatic effect on us. Sure, the cost of living is cheaper in our area, but most people here earn half the pay of other areas. There's no way that most of us could handle the electric bills like some of you mention.
White Pine, if your nick has anything to do with where you live in E. Tn, I am about an hour NW of you.


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## Willman (Feb 11, 2011)

I knew a guy with high electric bills. He complained to the power company and they sent someone out. They stuck a voltage meter in the ground next to the ground rod and there was power there ! Had it fixed, I don't know what the fix was and his power bills went down.

Not certain how a wood fired boiler will help out with your ac costs. They are prolly high too.

Will


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## steam man (Feb 11, 2011)

jebatty said:
			
		

> One place to start is to estimate your btu load requirement. If the 4200 kwh month represents your heaviest heat demand period, let's assume that all of that is for heating (actually, most other electric use also ends up as heat anyway). Considering all of the kwh for heat, that equates to 4200 kwh x 3400 btu/kwh / 30 / 24 = 19800 btu/hr for an average 33* month.
> 
> If you begin to think about a high efficiency (80-85%) wood boiler, you might think about a minimum cost of $10,000 for the installation. And at the same time, depending on your situation, costs could run much higher.
> 
> I'll let others run with this from here.



Correct me if I am wrong but a direct calculation for kwh to BTU would be correct for resistance heating whereas a heat pump should be 2 to 4 times more efficient, maybe more. This sounds like a serious heat loss for a 1700sqft home in this location.
I have also heard electricity "leaking to ground" thus using more power. Also, do a good eat loss calc for your home. Your ceiling insulation has to come up. A close look at everything would be prudent.


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## WhitePine (Feb 11, 2011)

steam man said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong but a direct calculation for kwh to BTU would be correct for resistance heating whereas a heat pump should be 2 to 4 times more efficient, maybe more.



Heat pump efficiency is variable depending on the outside temperature, assuming we aren't talking geothermal (ground source heat pump). It's called the Coefficient Of Performance (COP). The Achilles heel of regular (air source) heat pumps is the fact that they become less efficient as the temperature drops, eventually reaching a COP of 1. Most heat pump manufacturers provide a chart graphing COP versus outside air temperature. It is very useful for managing your heat pump and deciding what kind of auxiliary heat and its cut-in or switch-over temperature is the best choice for any particular situation. Unfortunately, most heat pump owners don't even know they exist.


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## WhitePine (Feb 11, 2011)

boatboy63 said:
			
		

> White Pine, if your nick has anything to do with where you live in E. Tn, I am about an hour NW of you.



Actually, it doesn't. I completely forgot about the town of White Pine when I picked that screen name.  :red:


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## steam man (Feb 11, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> steam man said:
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Good explanation. I haven't touched on those since college over 30 years ago. Heat pumps are rare up here though they are used and even made nearby. I couldn't imagine using it with a 20 cent/KWH electric rate.


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## jebatty (Feb 11, 2011)

> Correct me if I am wrong but a direct calculation for kwh to BTU would be correct for resistance heating whereas a heat pump should be 2 to 4 times more efficient, maybe more.



You're right, I missed that before and now again, not good. No heat pumps in my life. 

If a gassification wood boiler is to be considered, keep in mind that probably the "best" install involves using hot water through low temperature emitters, although many use a hot water to air heat exchanger. At the same time, a wood stove in a good location will do wonders at a fraction of the cost. As you can see from my signature below, we use a wood stove, in our living room, to heat our 1500 sq ft house plus full basement. And except for a little electric heat in the basement to keep it at 50F (about $200 worth/year), that stove is our sole source of heat. The stove keeps the main part of the house at 70F even with -40F outside air temp, plus any windchill effect. I also have a wood gasification boiler with storage to heat the 1500 sq ft shop, and the shop was built new with in-floor radiant to take full advantage of the boiler and use of low temperature hot water. The boiler has capacity to also heat the house, but it would be quite an expense to shift the house to hot water heat, although not out of the question for the future.

As others say, your biggest bang for the buck normally is insulation and eliminating air infiltration. I wouldn't shift to a new heating system without doing everything reasonable in these two areas first.


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## daleeper (Feb 11, 2011)

It sounds like the best place to start is with a true energy audit.  One with a blower door test and ir camera to see where air infiltration is occurring.  If you don't want to spend the money to do that, then start with more insulation in the attic, and have the heat pump checked over including charge level (you really need to do that anyway).  If you are not really set up for wood, what about natural gas or lp gas furnace added to your central air system even at the relatively cheap electrical cost you have, gas would most likely be cheaper than having that resistant heat backup strip kick in.  In fact, now that I think about it, at the average temp of 33*, what temp do you have that strip set to kick in at?  You might want to look at lowering that temp.  Insulation and heat pump tuneup may make substantial difference alone.

Because you asked this question in the boiler room, I'm guessing that you have at least considered adding a wood furnace, wood stove, or boiler to your system.  If you have a good source of wood, and enjoy the work, then go for it.  Myself, if I had to buy wood, I would probably just get a second lp tank, and fill in summer at the low price point and not even mess with wood.  As it is, there is way more wood on this farm than I can get cut and burned, so I feel obliged to whittle some of it down to stove size.  It makes a significant dent in our utility bills.  A house your size, a properly placed wood stove would make most of the heat your home would require, and most likely be less expensive installation cost.

Tell us a bit more about what you are thinking, and in the mean time get that energy audit scheduled, and a service for your heat pump.


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 11, 2011)

steam man said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
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Check for "Leak current" and "grounding" before you do anything else.


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## RobC (Feb 11, 2011)

I to HAD ridiculous electric bills. The problem with most monitoring devices is they go in at an outlet. They only look at one device at a time and don't do 220 at all.
This unit goes into breaker panel. Monitors whole house instantaneously. Has remote display for counter top / family room. 
http://www.theenergydetective.com/ted-1001

FYI helpful hint. Pick what outlet you want remote display and tie into the breaker that feeds it.
My unit paid for itself in the first couple of months. Once I fine tuned my house it pays for itself every month. 
Putting dimmers on light that you use a lot makes a big difference. HVAC fan cycling times. If you on well water turn down the pressure some.


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## rkusek (Feb 11, 2011)

10" of blown fiberglass probably R35 like stated above may be a little on light side but not enought to explain the high useage.  Rest of your insulation sounds great.  With $500+ electric bills you may be able to justify a $10k boiler system with storage in your climate.  Without storage or with a wood stove or furnace, I would think 33 degree average temps in January would make it hard to regulate the heat but maybe not.  Last winter we used our 5 ton heat pump almost all winter because I didn't have the HX mounted in the air handler and was still connecting everything to the UG lines buried between house and boiler in pole barn.  My highest bill was from 12/2/09 to 1/4/10 was $258 for 4720 kw for 2200 sq ft walkout ranch (ie. ~4400 heated).  We were very cold here with many single digits and several nights below zero plus a ton of snow.  Fortunately, electricity is cheap here compared to east coast I guess.  The winter rates are about half of the summer when you heat with electricity (ie. exceed a base amount of kw).  The 4720 worked out to about 4.2 cents per kW with a $36 coal transportation fuel surcharge, and $14 in taxes.  I would recommend checking out your heat pump charge and settings like others have recommended.  I suspect your auxillary strips must be running too much.  You probably have 2 strips (I have a 10kw and 5kw) and they can be set in stages (ie. 5, 10 or 15) to only give you what you need with the right kind of tstat.  They wired mine to both come on together but I would probably get a multistage tsat and change it if I didn't have the wood boiler.  Your kW useage definitely sounds high compared to mine for those temps.  Note at what outside temp that your tstat shows Aux heat.  Our heat pump runs almost constantly in zero degree weather but is able to maintain a 70 setting.  I know the strips are setup to kick in to assist if it struggles to maintain the temp or when it goes into periodic defrost mode.  You don't want to use a programmable thermostat for these however.  They recommend leaving tsat at one setting all day unless you are out of town.  If  you turn it down and turn it back up when you get home, it will immediately go to Auxillary heat if the room temp is more than about 4-5 degrees from the set temp.  The electric backup ones are better than the propane/gas backup versions because those shut off the heat pump around 25-30* and let the gas to all the work.  

I will probably have close to 12 grand into my boiler setup when I am done (EKO 40, 1000gal storage (pending), 330' (one way) foamed pex between boiler in pole barn and shed).  The same time period for this winter was $160 (2600kw) but we still have an 80gal DHW heater and on some of the warmer days I just let the heat pump take over since I knew I didn't have enough good wood.  The heat pump would also kick on for an hour or two each morning when the boiler died out.  When I cut in the 1000 gal storage, I should be able to eliminate the heat pump running except when we go on vacation.  In addition, I plan to add at least a sidearm to the DHW heater.  I know the cheap electric rates here may come to a screeching halt very soon and not being dependent solely on the power grid for heat and DHW is worth something as well.  I'm also looking into adding staple up radiant and a battery backup setup down the road as well to avoid having to run a generator constantly to power the air handler blower if we lose power due to weather, rolling blackouts, etc.


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## PV2U (Feb 12, 2011)

Wow! You guys have a lot of good ideas, and I certainly appreciate you sending them my way!

The Rant:
I would seriously love to have a wood gasification boiler, and would love to have an excuse to install one - regardless of how this whole deal with my outrageous electric bill goes.  As someone mentioned above, my dang air conditioning bill is @#$!% nuts too, so a boiler unit wouldn't be a panacea, but honestly guys, I'm so sick of passing coin to the utility that I'd rather give two pennies to Garn, Eko, Tarm, insert manufacturer-of-choice-here than give one to the grid.  Gravy, I'm so sick of being shackled to the grid that I can't hardly stand it.  As I said in an earlier post, I don't mind paying for the electric I use, but the $120 of addition fees/taxes on my bill is, to me, unconscionable.  It is inhumane!  And, if I want electricity I have no CHOICE but to pay it.  There was an "Energy Choice" program that was highly touted as a triumph (deregulation) for the common man to be able to pick his power company, and I was eagerly awaiting that.  Thing is, when it was supposed to debut, it was nowhere to be seen.  All that hype, all that advertising led to an absolute dead end.  I was frustrated beyond measure.  Oh, by the way, there IS an energy choice program, but you have to use over a million kWh/yr to qualify.  someone certainly has a sense of humor.  Okay, enough grousing about the power company I reckon.  I would delight to go on for hours about the evils of "the system", but I'll spare you all AND forestall the onset of early carpal tunnel by a few years in one fell swoop of self-denial! hehe!

In Summary:
Based on everyone's comments, here's what I'm thinking about doing.  I have started calling around about energy audits, to include the fan test and the infrared video.  I can get one minus the infrared heat detection for $250, but the guy with the high tech gear thermal imager wants $400.  I'm going to prolly go with the $400 because I've been hosing around with this stuff for years and I just want to get the big picture once and for all.  I am also intrigued by the whole electricity "leaking to ground" theory, so most likely I'll get someone out here to check that out too.  Hopefully the thermal imaging will give me the scoop on what to do about the insulation in the attic and elsewhere.  If the energy audit doesn't come up with something obvious, I'm going to have the heat pump checked out again and make sure that everything is humming a precision tune on that front.  Basically, the plan is to hound this issue until I get a resolution - and, again, I appreciate you guys providing me with a road map for doing so.

I will update this thread with my progress - and man, I really hope it's something that I can just fix once I find out what it is


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## RobC (Feb 12, 2011)

The idea with the TED meter is, for short money you can see what is causing your meter to spin. Then you can address the causes. We have a well insulated home that passed the blower door test and was energy star certified. Until I got the TED I was getting $250 to $450 per month electric bills. Now they are $140 to $240.
I agree that an energy audit would be a good idea especially the inferred video. 
However that isn't going to tell you that the 6 recessed halogen ceiling lights in the kitchen that are on for 4+ hours a day are killing you. Solution is to use a dimmer and only emit the light you need. My HVAC fan got a new thermostat that has a CYCLE program so you get some circulation, 20 minutes per hour, without being either turned to AUTO or RUN. We use CYCLE on on extreme hot or cold days and AUTO the rest of the time. During the shoulder season we just turn it OFF after the house warms up in the AM and when we go to bed at PM.
I also change my fan speed setting in the HVAC to a lower setting. I dropped my well pump cut out pressure about 10 PSI and never noticed the pressure drop.
In my case I cut my bill by seeing what was chewing the juice and worked on a solution. The results were dramatic.
I have a separate meter for my shop. Constantly had an $80/ month minimum electric bill. Had a 3 gallon hot water for hand washing. That got replaced with an instant hot water unit. That bill is $40/ month now.
I don't think of our family a being wasteful or negligent. We turn off lights when not in rooms, water when we brush teeth etc. You can get all the energy audits in the world and I doubt they would suggest lowering your blower motor speed or dropping your well pressure.


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## Willman (Feb 12, 2011)

All the fiberglass insulation will not stop infiltration and the resultant ex filtration, all it will do is filter it. Infiltration is responsible for 40ish% of heat loss or heat gain in the summer in cooling climates. Blower door test over ir camera. An ir scan will point out areas that have no insulation or poorly installed insulation. This will require demo and redo. Infiltration is cured rather inexpensively. Get a case of can foam and go.

A cheap way to check power if you have the time is to use your meter outside. Turn breakers off and write down your numbers. If all breakers are off meter should not spin. Turn on your highest wattage breakers one at a time and check the numbers after 5 minutes, write em down. You can get an idea which circuit is using the most and check out that circuit. An old refrigerator will draw more than a new one. 
Will


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2011)

Any way you can compare your KW usage from 5 years ago vs current? I'm wondering if there will be a noticeable increase in power consumption. This might give a clue as to whether you are experiencing a decrease in performance of your HP. 
I've installed a few but they are pretty rare in Northern Michigan due to the amount of time spent below minimum operating temps.....Enough to know that the refrigerant charge is critical and a good refrigeration tech is worth his weight in gold. 
What brand is the unit? Single stage or two stage compressor? 

  If I were your tech, the first thing I would do would be to inspect the bottom of the refrigerant coil in the air handler. Those fine fins can catch a lot of dust very quickly and if they are dirty can really degrade performance. When you are heating, or cooling for that matter with air, air flow is everything. Once I was certain that there were no restrictions anywhere in the duct system or the equipment itself (inside or on the outdoor unit) I would check to see that the back up strip heaters are coming on at the appropriate temperature. There will be a setpoint either on the equipment or the thermostat that determines the outdoor temp the elements kick on. (some do this based on length of cycle)
  After that, hooking up the gauges would come next to determine if the charge is correct, if the TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) is working properly and if the compressor(s) are working up to snuff. 
If that exploration discovers that everything is functioning normally, it would be prudent to look at specs on new equipment vs the COP on yours to determine whether upgrading would help you out. 
After that of course comes building envelope study to see if where improvements could be made.  
 As others have said, air to air heat pumps deliver pretty marginal performance below 35-40* outdoor temps when in the heating mode.


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## PV2U (Feb 12, 2011)

Hey Rob, I see what you're saying with the TED, and I've contemplated looking into that farther.  I can see beauty of that being that regardless of whether or not the "perpetrating load" is something that would normally come up on a standard energy audit, it would be able to pinpoint it as a problem.  You've been able to make some (what I would characterize as) terrific gains with your unit.  If I could reduce my bill that much, I would be pickled tink!  Will have to investigate that one some more!

Hey Willman!  Yeah, the guy with the IR camera is going to do a blower door test too, I just wanted to the IR for curiosity's sake (okay, I'll admit to a gadget factor in there), AND to see if the contractor actually burned me on the insulation (demo and redo are BOTH definitely 4-letter words!).  It's supposed to be in the mid 50s tomorrow, so that'd be a good day to start flipping through my breaker box and hanging out at the meter!

Heaterman, I've thought about that, but those bills are long gone I reckon.  I DO know that prior to the heatpump being replaced, I was sorely hoping that once the new one came my bill would go down.  So I know they were high then, but I just can't recall exactly how high.  They have, I believe, gradually increased over the years.  I think the unit is a Lennox, and I'm not sure about the type compressor but tomorrow is going to be a good day for checking out those fins in the bottom of the air handler too!

Thanks guys!!


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## woodgeek (Feb 12, 2011)

I have a similar HP setup to the OP, and I spiked my elec bill this december to a similar level, about 70% higher than the previous december (with the HP also).

I had a new roof installed last summer, and the apes in the attic walked all over my insulation-wrapped metal ductwork, creating a bunch of invisible leaking seams under the wrap.
Ugh--after about 15 hours in my attic in January, and a mile of aluminum tape, all fixed.

So, did something major change with the OP's system in the last year??


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## DBoon (Feb 12, 2011)

First step - get a good, professional energy audit and follow it's recommendations.  If they aren't doing a blower door test, then it's not a good, professional audit.  Even if these recommendations cost you a few bucks, it's always best and usually most cost-effective with quickest return on your investment to reduce the heating demand first.

Second step - consider something that gets your heat pump off-line in the winter time, and just use it in the shoulder seasons and in the summer for AC.  Heat pumps are designed by engineers for engineers.  If you let them do their thing without interference, they work ok and are efficient in your climate.  But, as with many other things, humans often interfere with the best intentions of engineers and make heat pumps run in a less efficient way (e.g. turning the heat up in the morning and forcing the electric backup heat on).  Even if you understand what not to do, chances are your family will not or will not care.  Believe me, I've been in this situation myself.


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2011)

One of the biggest problems I consistently see with heat pumps is sizing. Specifiers, engineers, and many contractors will "fudge" the sizing and install a unit that is sufficient for say 80% of weather conditions, relying on the back up heat strips to carry the load when things get nasty temp wise. Let's say for example the load at design in your building is 57,000 btu. In order to keep costs for the unit itself along with all other related materials like duct work, they might install a 42,000 or 48,000 btu unit. In my humble opinion the scenario above would warrant the install of a 60,000 btu HP or maybe a pair of smaller units. Of course that would mean higher installed cost and that's something home owners, builders and financial entities do not like to see. 

What happens is when we get into outdoor temps beyond what the unit/system is sized for (like this year with global cooling) you suddenly find your self running on the backup heaters far more than normal amount and the electric bill heads to the moon.


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## bigburner (Feb 12, 2011)

Air to Air in Michigan ???? Better have a  furnace sitting under that coil. Two things I see, HVAC companies pushing geothermal systems where there is not a significant reduction in the power rate. IE consumers energy verse the great rate that Detroit Edison has. Just selling the tax benefit for the system, it's fun to go to home shows and ambush them after about 10 minutes of the speal! & the other is under sized fields and fuzzy math on the ROI & performance. There are a lot of Whores in this business.


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## WhitePine (Feb 12, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> One of the biggest problems I consistently see with heat pumps is sizing. Specifiers, engineers, and many contractors will "fudge" the sizing and install a unit that is sufficient for say 80% of weather conditions, relying on the back up heat strips to carry the load when things get nasty temp wise. Let's say for example the load at design in your building is 57,000 btu. In order to keep costs for the unit itself along with all other related materials like duct work, they might install a 42,000 or 48,000 btu unit. In my humble opinion the scenario above would warrant the install of a 60,000 btu HP or maybe a pair of smaller units. Of course that would mean higher installed cost and that's something home owners, builders and financial entities do not like to see.
> 
> What happens is when we get into outdoor temps beyond what the unit/system is sized for (like this year with global cooling) you suddenly find your self running on the backup heaters far more than normal amount and the electric bill heads to the moon.



Heat pumps are not normally sized for heating. They are sized for cooling, which is a significantly lower load than heating, even in many parts of the South.  That is standard practice. Sizing a run of the mill heat pump for heating will result in short run times, lowered efficiency, and poor humidity control during cooling season. Many contractors actually oversize heat pumps as any easy way prevent complaints from customers who just don't get it. Builders will usually not oversize, if they know what they are doing, simply because it saves them money. Poor installations make many heat pumps perform poorly.

Because heat pumps are sized for cooling, an auxilliary heat source is almost always required. It can be juice sucking heat strips, which can be used concurrently with the heat pump, or an alternative switch over heat source, such as natural gas or oil. Managing the switch on or switch over temperature is a tricky business, often mucked up by the HVAC contractor and/or the homeowner. It is dependent on the heat pump's COP, the electric rate paid by the customer, and the cost of alternative fuels, such as NG and oil. Compounding the difficult is variable rates for all these energy sources. Getting it right is a groan.

Heat pumps _can_ be sized for heating, but it takes an expensive  two stage heat pump to do it. The best choice is a unit whose first stage has a significantly lower BTU output than it's second stage. We have such as system. It will maintain our summer cooling set point entirely on stage one. In the winter it will maintain our heating set point down to 17F without switching in the heat strips. Between 10F and 17F our house will cool two or thee degrees. At 10F, the 15KW heat strips begin staging and the house will maintain its set point.  The heat strips are electrically locked out above 10F and will not come on except during defrost operations.

In other words, it takes 2 tons of heat pump to cool our house and 4 tons of heat pump to heat it. If we ran a 4 ton heat pump in the summer, it would over cool the house and the humidity would skyrocket, with a significant risk of mold. Since we have a passive solar house, it's all academic during sunny winter days. The heat pump never runs then. In the future, when we have enough seasoned wood, it won't run much on cloudy days either.  :coolsmile:


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## rkusek (Feb 12, 2011)

White pine & heaterman make some good points.  My HP is a 5 ton Lennox but it is only 1 stage and for simplicity the HVAC guys wired all both sets of strips to fire all at once (10kw & 5kw).  The guy even mentioned "you'll won't have a problem heating this way."  Funny thing is he was the most knowledgable guy (3rd) ever sent out having spent time in Florida and was more familiar with them.  The installers didn't even hook up the heat strips and put in an incompatable tstat.  The 2nd guy that fixed that messed up the humidifier.  The 3rd guy realized the humifier needed an outdoor temp sensor to work properly.  Fortunately it was all part of the first year warranty but didn't give me much confidence in their work.  The outfit is one of the biggest games in town too doing both HVAC and plumbing work.  The multistage compressors and multistage strips are probably much more necessary in the south or the north if someone needs AC there.  My simple unit probably works OK for Nebraska since we are more evenly balanced with hot & cold I suppose.  If the PV2U can find a tech that really knows what's going on I bet the find a problem with the setup.


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good points Piney!  I'm looking at a heat pump through "Northern" eyes and slanting my opinions based on the fact that we have far more heating load than cooling. That being the case a heat pump is going to spend probably 90% of it's run time in heating conditions vs only 10% of it's life running in cooling mode.  That's were I generate my sizing numbers from. If a person wants to do as much heating work as they can with an A-A heat pump in our climate up here, 2 stage is nearly mandatory for the reasons you state. Absolutely correct. 
A far better choice in northern regions is a hybrid system that uses a 2 stage HP in combination with a variable speed condensing gas furnace. This give the best of both the heating and cooling worlds IMHO. While that type of system is very efficient and avoids the auxiliary heat issue, it is more expensive than most homeowners are willing or able to have installed. 
I might add that the same issues hold true on a lot of GSHP installations I have had my grubby paws on. A lot of guys will size them for cooling load btu's which in this part of the country are about 3-4X less than the heating load. Homeowners are left with the same scenario of sky high electric bills in the dead of winter even though they thought they were buying the most efficient system out there.


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## WhitePine (Feb 12, 2011)

heaterman said:
			
		

> WhitePine said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good grief!  Sizing a GSHP for a northern cooling load is insane. Someone ought to lock those people up.


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> heaterman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Insane is right. But that should give you an idea of the business climate here in Michigan. It's low bid or nothing, who cares if it works right for the customer. People are cutting corners in any way possible and consequences be damned. I've seen at least a half dozen HVAC guys move into the area here, undercut everyone, leave suppliers and wholesalers in the lurch and vamoose within 2 years. Customers? ....most of em got what they paid for. Some equipment they were told would work, a low price and not much else. They are left with a nightmare in most cases.


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## PV2U (Feb 12, 2011)

Well guys, today was the day that I had big plans to address my power situation - however, I learned something.  Nothing quite takes your mind off your utility bill like waking up to find that your submerged well pump is prolly dead!  That gives one a whole new set of priorities!  Crack!  I thought I was going to get something done today but now, after fooling with it all morning, I gotta spend $160 on a service call from the well guy!  WAAAAaaaaahhhh  LOL!  

Course, I reckon 20 years off a subbed well pump in iron water is a blessing, but I just wish it wouldn't always pour when it rains!!  :O)

Stay Tuned...  I'll get back online with the power situation ASAP.

Wouldn't that be ironic if it was somehow my well pump running amock that was making my bill high? HA!  I ain't that lucky!


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## bigburner (Feb 12, 2011)

Well repair was my neighbors profession,so as a kid growing up learned most of it on the operator end of a shovel. A hole in the drop pipe will cause continuous run or worst short cycling either way I have seen high power bills because of this. It will be 160.00 + 400.00 new pump + 250 for drop pipe+ 100 for misc stuff. Your at a grand!! That is my internet guess!!


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## PV2U (Feb 13, 2011)

The well guy just left.  The pump was, mercifully, fine.  The wire going down to it was worn in several places and was hunking up the whole action.  $585.48 later ($300+ of wire), and I'm good to go!  if I have to do it again, I'll try it myself, but that was unknown territory.

Now, back to the business of reducing my dang power bill!  :coolgrin:


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## woodsmaster (Feb 13, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> Well guys, today was the day that I had big plans to address my power situation - however, I learned something. Nothing quite takes your mind off your utility bill like waking up to find that your submerged well pump is prolly dead! That gives one a whole new set of priorities! Crack! I thought I was going to get something done today but now, after fooling with it all morning, I gotta spend $160 on a service call from the well guy! WAAAAaaaaahhhh LOL!
> 
> Course, I reckon 20 years off a subbed well pump in iron water is a blessing, but I just wish it wouldn't always pour when it rains!! :O)
> 
> ...





My neighbor just had to replace his submersible. I believe he said it was drawing 8 amps and should have been drawing 2 amps.


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## PV2U (Feb 13, 2011)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> My neighbor just had to replace his submersible. I believe he said it was drawing 8 amps and should have been drawing 2 amps.



=O)  Well, I tell you what J.T., I'm going to be gawking at that meter tomorrow just in CASE it made a difference!  I'm going to take a reading in just a bit and then another in 24 hours and see how many kWhs I used - if it's drastically less than the norm, I'm going to be the happiest of campers!


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## Duetech (Feb 13, 2011)

PV2U the well pump could have been a big problem. If it has been said I didn't see it so... Turn off all your breakers and then go look at the meter to see if it is at a stand still. Then with all appliances (everything) unplugged (off is misleading sometimes) start turning the breakers on and cheching the meter after each return to power. (you may have found a leak in the pump wiring this way). Rodents (and pets) have been known to do damage to wiring that can sap power and sometimes only when it rains. There have been a lot of good suggestions here. Wish you the best...


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## flyingcow (Feb 13, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> Greetings Gents (or 'Gentesses' as applicable)!!   =o)
> 
> White Pine's recent comment about his power bill prompted me to start a thread - I am heating only 1,700+ sq ft (2 story, but upper floor probably only 35-40% of total area) with a heat pump (single unit, perhaps 5 years old) and I used 4200+ kWhs this past billing cycle.  Now, I live near Richmond, VA and, according to the bill, the average daily temp for that time period was 33* = not all that harsh.  My house is about 20 years old, and is in good repair.
> 
> ...



Not going to help, but i think the rate up here is about 15 cents a kwh.


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## PV2U (Feb 13, 2011)

Cave2k said:
			
		

> PV2U the well pump could have been a big problem. If it has been said I didn't see it so... Turn off all your breakers and then go look at the meter to see if it is at a stand still. Then with all appliances (everything) unplugged (off is misleading sometimes) start turning the breakers on and cheching the meter after each return to power. (you may have found a leak in the pump wiring this way). Rodents (and pets) have been known to do damage to wiring that can sap power and sometimes only when it rains. There have been a lot of good suggestions here. Wish you the best...



Hey Cave!  You know, I was going to do something very similar to that today before my cotton-picking water went out - but of course, that derailed my train right quick!  Hopefully I can get to it in the morning.  Thanks for the kind words!


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## PV2U (Feb 13, 2011)

flyingcow said:
			
		

> Not going to help, but i think the rate up here is about 15 cents a kwh.



Oh mercy!  At my magnitude of kWhs, if I had those rates I'd have to start auctioning off organs to pay my dang power bill!!  LOL!

That's just TOO much!!

edit: fixed my hunked up attempt at quoting


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## benjamin (Feb 13, 2011)

I'd bet the well pump having any affect on the kwh use is a long shot. It only takes a few pennies worth of electricity to blow a pump, control box and melt the whole lenght of wire. 

As far as HVAC guys going to jail for incompetence, it's not gonna happen as a matter of professional courtesy. You see if HVAC guys went to jail for incompetence then lawyers would be at risk of going to jail for incompetence, and that just isn't going to happen. 

I too look at things from a northern perspective, and I disagree slightly with what Heaterman said about GSHP, but then I'm one of those contractors...

The factor we're probably missing is the way they run ductwork in your neck o' the woods. Ductwork is almost always terribly leaky, but around here it has to be run inside the envelope. Yours is probably run through the attic, knee walls, exterior walls, garage, did I miss any spots? I assume this is an odd shaped house as the upper level is less than the lower level. This leads to UGLY framing connections, open unsealed stud and joist cavities, and maybe lots of flex duct?

Unfortunately an audit is only as good as the auditor. No amount of equipment can tell you what the problem is if the auditor isn't willing to put the work in. You may be be just as well off to climb into all of your hidden spaces, examine every inch of the ductwork especially in the attic, and seal everything you can find.


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## Duetech (Feb 14, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> Cave2k said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We had an old fridge that fit tightly next to the kitchen sink counter and when doing dishes we would sometimes get a poke. Investigation showed a spot had warn through the power cord to the fridge where it rested on the fridge defrost drain pan. We would only get a poke when the fridge would come on or go off and we were doing dishes. The compressor would shake the fridge just enough for the bare wire to contact the fridge drain pain and send a poke through the aliminum trim on the counter and the metal sink. When there was enough water on the edge of the sink you didn't get a poke. Just when the edge was dry and your arm rested on the trim and on the sink and the fridge cycled on or off. Hope to hear a good story about your new evergy savings!


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## PV2U (Feb 14, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> I'd bet the well pump having any affect on the kwh use is a long shot. It only takes a few pennies worth of electricity to blow a pump, control box and melt the whole lenght of wire....



Oh, you know how to hurt a guy! LOL!  Yeah, it's no doubt a long shot, but time will tell (crosses fingers)!



			
				benjamin said:
			
		

> ...The factor we're probably missing is the way they run ductwork in your neck o' the woods. Ductwork is almost always terribly leaky, but around here it has to be run inside the envelope. Yours is probably run through the attic, knee walls, exterior walls, garage, did I miss any spots? I assume this is an odd shaped house as the upper level is less than the lower level. This leads to UGLY framing connections, open unsealed stud and joist cavities, and maybe lots of flex duct?



One of the things I actually feel good about is the duct work.  From what I can tell, it's all done in sheet metal.  One of the HVAC guys I've had in remarked at how well done it was (for whatever that's worth, it all looks the same to me), but it seems substantial.  An engineer owned the house before me, and he was a stickler on some things (although I never got around to asking him what HIS power bill was).  That said, this time everything, including the duct work, is on the table for examination and if it's the duct work, or if the duct work is a major player, then I'm not going to stop crawling over this thing until I've identified it!  

However, I still prefer to think that the $585 I just spent yesterday has all but eliminated my power bills concerns!! HA!  Yeah, I know, 'Denial' ain't just a river in Egypt!!  Double HA!  %-P


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## PV2U (Feb 14, 2011)

Cave2k said:
			
		

> We had an old fridge that fit tightly next to the kitchen sink counter...



LOL!  I bet y'all were flipping some coins and drawing straws to see who was gonna clean up the supper dishes!  Paper plates for everyone!!  HA!


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## benjamin (Feb 14, 2011)

I struck out huh?  I was imagining a few pieces of flex duct pulled off of a main trunk in the attic.  If it it's all inside, then it's not going to make that big a difference.  You might still want to look at the framing cavities.  Never trust an engineer, or a contractor for that matter.


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## Willman (Feb 14, 2011)

Call the electric company and request a printout of power used for as far back as they can go. Not really knowing former owners habits might negate an accurate analysis.
Will


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## heaterman (Feb 14, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> I'd bet the well pump having any affect on the kwh use is a long shot. It only takes a few pennies worth of electricity to blow a pump, control box and melt the whole lenght of wire.
> 
> As far as HVAC guys going to jail for incompetence, it's not gonna happen as a matter of professional courtesy. You see if HVAC guys went to jail for incompetence then lawyers would be at risk of going to jail for incompetence, and that just isn't going to happen.
> 
> ...



I what regard do you disagree Benjamin? I'm all ears and always looking to learn something.


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## benjamin (Feb 15, 2011)

I disagree slightly about the sizing of GSHP in the north, or the prevelance of undersized systems.  You're absolutely right that air source heat pumps are not a good solution in most cases in the north, adding a "backup" furnace helps but at a cost.  Going to ground source almost eliminates the drop in capacity of air source heat pumps and is a much better choice for severe heating climates than air source, and much cheaper to run than Propane or fuel oil.

Really the only disagreement is that I haven't seen the undersized GSHPs that you have.  Somebody would have to be way off their rocker to think of sizing for cooling in this climate.


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## PV2U (Feb 15, 2011)

Willman said:
			
		

> Call the electric company and request a printout of power used for as far back as they can go. Not really knowing former owners habits might negate an accurate analysis.
> Will



Just did.  They only had back to 2002, and I was the owner then, but it will be interesting to throw it in a spreadsheet and see what the graph looks like.  I'm taking daily readings of my meter so I can see what's going on day-by-day as well.  The dang well-pump took my Audit $$, so I have to save that back up. sigh!


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## PV2U (Feb 15, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> I struck out huh?  I was imagining a few pieces of flex duct pulled off of a main trunk in the attic.  If it it's all inside, then it's not going to make that big a difference.  You might still want to look at the framing cavities.  Never trust an engineer, or a contractor for that matter.



HA! I wish it WAS something as obvious as that!  I would be the first one to execute the "Cabbage Patch" dance!  Should be interesting to get an 8-year overview of my kWh usage - should get that in the mail by Friday.  I'm goign to try to graph it and then save as a graphic and post it to the forum.  thanks for chiming in!


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## PV2U (Feb 15, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> I disagree slightly about the sizing of GSHP in the north, or the prevelance of undersized systems.  You're absolutely right that air source heat pumps are not a good solution in most cases in the north, adding a "backup" furnace helps but at a cost.  Going to ground source almost eliminates the drop in capacity of air source heat pumps and is a much better choice for severe heating climates than air source, and much cheaper to run than Propane or fuel oil.
> 
> Really the only disagreement is that I haven't seen the undersized GSHPs that you have.  Somebody would have to be way off their rocker to think of sizing for cooling in this climate.



a GSHP installation is approximately $10K or so?  Is there ever a legit recoup in investment?  It gets as hot and humid as a cuss here, I wish you could air condition by burning wood, I'd have already had a gasification unit long ago!  hehe!


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## benjamin (Feb 17, 2011)

What's the ROI of $10,000 in wood boiler stuff?  If you want ROI get a wood stove and keep a fire going whenever the temp is low enough that the air source heat pump loses efficiency, and let the heat pump run in the shoulder season when it is cheaper.  

I can't explain your high electric bills, and they seem outrageous for the size, age, and climate of the house.  

If you're up to a DIY used GSHP, you could do it for around $1,000 if you can do a pump and dump, you mentioned you have a well.  It's easier by far than a wood boiler install, especially if you don't have a chimney.  You'd save on heating, AC and hot water when either heat/AC is running.


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## WhitePine (Feb 17, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> a GSHP installation is approximately $10K or so?  Is there ever a legit recoup in investment?  It gets as hot and humid as a cuss here, I wish you could air condition by burning wood, I'd have already had a gasification unit long ago!  hehe!



Do you mean the whole thing? It's north of $20K for a 4 ton system here, if you have the room for a buried horizontal ground loop. Wells or vertical loops are much higher. Additional capacity raises the cost exponentially. We looked at it when we built this house. Even with the tax credit, there was no ROI.

Might be a little different in your area. Our climate is milder, so the advantage of a GSHP is less. On the other hand, this is a low wage area, which helps to mitigate costs. 

Pump and dump is not permitted in some areas.

You could theoretically build a wood fired air conditioner, as heat can be used to cool. Propane powered refrigerators exist and can still be bought today.


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## benjamin (Feb 17, 2011)

http://cgi.ebay.com/FHP-MANUFACTURI...208430?pt=Air_Conditioner&hash=item1c1919d82e

I've used several of from this seller.  I didn't ask if pump and dump was permitted.


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## PV2U (Feb 19, 2011)

Okay, just wanted to post the chart I created based on the results of my electrical usage history.  Interesting how, over time, the high were coming down (usually in Feb) and the lows seemed to be trending higher (i.e. the seasonal swings seemed to be getting narrower in scope) until around DEC '09 (with the exception of a big spike in JAN '09) and then the lows kept getting higher but the high stopped getting lower!  

Haven't had much time to analyze this yet, but I just wanted to post it for y'all to see what it charted out like across the years.

More later...


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## Willman (Feb 19, 2011)

Now you need the HDD (heating degree days) for your location and create another graph (overlay)

Will


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## PV2U (Feb 19, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> Do you mean the whole thing? It's north of $20K for a 4 ton system here, if you have the room for a buried horizontal ground loop.


Oh my WORD!  And that's for a horizontal loop?  Gravy train, talk about sticker shock!  I ain't trying to mortgage my gold tooth!  HA!  Although, if pressed to do one of the other, I'd just as soon the manufacturer of that system get my $20K than the power company get it.



			
				WhitePine said:
			
		

> You could theoretically build a wood fired air conditioner, as heat can be used to cool. Propane powered refrigerators exist and can still be bought today.


LOL!  That's true!  I never thought about using the wood gas to run a propane fridge, but I reckon it would do it.  :O)


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## PV2U (Feb 19, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> http://cgi.ebay.com/FHP-MANUFACTURING-GEOTHERMAL-HEAT-PUMP-/120680208430?pt=Air_Conditioner&hash=item1c1919d82e
> 
> I've used several of from this seller.  I didn't ask if pump and dump was permitted.


Kewl!  As I think about it, I don't think I have enough land at my current residence to support a horizontal loop, and prolly can't afford a vertical one.  But WOW, the price seems right on these babies, doesn't it!  I've half a mind to get one and just keep it until I have a place to put it!  We're looking at land now.

Thanks for the lead.  I'm sure enough thinking about grabbing one of these before they're all gone - for ~$1,000 I can hardly go wrong!

I had to read up on Pump And Dump, and found that the name is as descriptive as I'd guessed!  I live in a pretty "strict" county, and I'm pretty sure they'd shoot me if I tried that.  And plus, I have a great well, but I'd be half scared that it would be overtaxed supplying the house AND the geo!  But I'm glad to know that you can get used units without taking such a savage hit up front. =O)


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## PV2U (Feb 19, 2011)

Willman said:
			
		

> Now you need the HDD (heating degree days) for your location and create another graph (overlay)
> 
> Will



Hey Will!  Do I need to dig around and find the actual, historical monthly HDD average and then overlay, or will the current average do all right?

edit: clarification of question


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## PV2U (Feb 19, 2011)

P.S. As an aside, today I turned off the heat pump, hot water heater, dish washer, clothes washer and dryer and still used around ~40 kWh.  Now, to me, 40 kWh is extremely low usage, but I'm betting a lot of you guys don't even see that much.

--edit-- redid my math and it wasn't 40 kWh, it was 32! :O)


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## DBoon (Feb 19, 2011)

I've been reading through this thread, and it really just seems to come back to the following:

1. The heat pump is really not operating all that differently than before, compared to month on month (season to season).   This year has been pretty cold, so usage is higher.
2. This winter has been pretty cold, so the electric backup heat is probably higher than normal
3. Electric rates are going up, so same or slightly higher usage results in much higher bills, noticed for the first time this winter, perhaps

If there really is a 40 kWh draw with every major load shut down (I doubt this), then something is seriously wrong.  

I have a hunch that the solution is pretty simple:

1. There is a family member running the heat pump in a way that makes the electric resistance heat kick on more often than it otherwise would, or someone with an electric heater in a bedroom.
2. There is a problem with the heat pump condenser and it is not operating properly. 

In any case, overall best solution for money saving is to get a wood stove.  Much quicker payback than wood boiler.  If you just want the wood boiler, then go ahead and get it if it works in your situation.  It won't not work, it just will take a lot longer to pay off.


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## woodsmaster (Feb 19, 2011)

With 6 kids your going to use a lot of hot water. Set a timer in the bath room and give the kids a time limit for showers. Get a high efficency washer if you don't have one. Put a check valve on your water heter so when the well pressure drops your not back feeding hot water. Those three things droped my elec bill about $60.00 / month. I just got my lowest electric bill in at least 5 years.

  A wood stove will pay off faster than a boiler ,but a boiler may pay back more in the long run do to hot water uasge and it's better for even heat. With storage it's allso more convienient than a wood stove.


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## NYEDGE (Feb 19, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> Willman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Try this link for degree days based on your local weather station. Just plug in your zip code and then choose a station close to you.
Degree Days Calculator


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## benjamin (Feb 19, 2011)

I didn't notice the mention of six kids, but even without the water heater you're using 40kwh/day.   How is that possible?  If nobody has mentioned it already, order a Kill-a-watt for about $25 and work your way through the house finding your suprise loads.  I've seen CD players that draw as many watts "off" as they do playing and that sort of thing, but I still can't see where 40 kwh could go.


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## PV2U (Feb 20, 2011)

DBoon said:
			
		

> ...If there really is a 40 kWh draw with every major load shut down (I doubt this), then something is seriously wrong...



You're right!  I redid my math, and it was 32 kWh for 24 hrs (9:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m.), but every major load was removed with the possible exception of the fridge, well pump and the range - don't know if they would be considered heavy loads or not.  @ around a total cost of ~$.12/kWh, that's still going to net me a bill of about $120/mnth without heat, air, hot water, clothes dryer, and so forth.  To me that just seems too much?  I mean, I'd love to get a $120 bill, but not for playing Survivorman! HA!

The search continues...


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## PV2U (Feb 20, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> I didn't notice the mention of six kids, but even without the water heater you're using 40kwh/day.   How is that possible?  If nobody has mentioned it already, order a Kill-a-watt for about $25 and work your way through the house finding your suprise loads.  I've seen CD players that draw as many watts "off" as they do playing and that sort of thing, but I still can't see where 40 kwh could go.



Okay, yeah, as I said to DBoone, I miscalced and it was actually 32 kHw, so that makes it a little more understandable I guess.  I think someone has mentioned the Kill-A-Watt, and I've seen them at Lowe's and so forth.  I'd love to work my way through the house with that thing, I may have to give it a go.  

Wouldn't that rock if Kill-a-Watt and I came to that hideous dang mantle clock my wife loves so much and I found it was pulling 20 kWhs/day!  LOL!  Oh crack, it's battery powered, never mind. :'O( HA!


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## PV2U (Feb 20, 2011)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> With 6 kids your going to use a lot of hot water. Set a timer in the bath room and give the kids a time limit for showers. Get a high efficency washer if you don't have one. Put a check valve on your water heter so when the well pressure drops your not back feeding hot water. Those three things droped my elec bill about $60.00 / month. I just got my lowest electric bill in at least 5 years.
> 
> A wood stove will pay off faster than a boiler ,but a boiler may pay back more in the long run do to hot water uasge and it's better for even heat. With storage it's allso more convienient than a wood stove.



Good ideas, J.T., and congrats on the low bill!  I usually double up the little ones in the shower, but those little buzzards DO like to dawdle in there way too long.  I had a High Efficiency washer (Fisher Paykel - loved that dern thing), but it died about a year back and let's just say I didn't have any "life" insurance on it and had to replace it with one that is, to put it mildly, less than highly efficient!  The check valve idea sounds like a winner too, but I don't know anything about that and will have to look into it = thanks again for chiming in!


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## PV2U (Feb 20, 2011)

NYEDGE said:
			
		

> Try this link for degree days based on your local weather station. Just plug in your zip code and then choose a station close to you.
> Degree Days Calculator



Thanks for the link, NYEDGE - not that I've an idea in the world what I'm looking at, but it looks about like I would expect it to?  No heating degree days in the summer and way up in the winter?  Does this chart seem to mesh with what you'd expect?

Check it out:

edit: changed graphic


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## DBoon (Feb 20, 2011)

32 kWh and 40 kWh per day are still the same number.  Something odd is going on that needs a deep dive. 

32 kWh per day x 30 days = 1000 kWh per month.  Subtract that off the 2000 kWh baseline in the chart chart and things start making a lot more sense to me.  A Kill-a-Watt meter would be the next best $30 you could possibly spend.


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## steam man (Feb 20, 2011)

I have  Kill-a-Watt meter and try monitoring various electrical things.  I thought my coffee machine may be using a lot but it has only used about 3kw in a week. I am thinking this summer it may be time to do a megger, i.e. insulation test on the underground wire from my meter to my house just to make sure it doesn't have leakage to ground. Been 20 years now so who knows?


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## NYEDGE (Feb 20, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> NYEDGE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The same link has an option for cooling degree days. Don't know if you have central air or some other cooling device for the summer, but you may want to overlay that information on this graph to see how the summer months look. The HDD seem to match with the winter spikes of usage, but even after your attempt to disconnect most of your load, you still are drawing allot of electricity.
My usage for January was 1931 KW for a 4,500 SF house using air handlers for 4 zones, and 3 circulator pumps in my heating system.

Some common things I do to save on electricity costs:
1) Every single light bulb in my house is a CFL (compact fluorescent). Today's technology allows for the light to be a pleasing color, and they save a boat load of money. If you haven't switched yet, give it a try and you will see immediate savings. When we moved in, the previous owners had 100 watt floods in all the recessed lights in the house. I switched all of them out to 14 watt CFL bulbs that put out 65 watts worth of light. Big difference is consumption right?, now multiply that about 94 bulbs inside and that allot of savings.
2) All the outdoor security flood lights work on motion sensors so that they are not burning electricity all the time. (They are halogen because CFL bulbs do not work well for this purpose)
3) Timers for all other lighting that we use regularly; driveway lights (CFL), family room light, (front step light), swimming pool pump, etc...
4) All new appliances that I purchase must be energy efficient. We recently upgraded our TV sets and we went with LED flat panels instead of LCD because of the lower usage of power and heat created by the units.

In summary, everyone's electric draw will be different based on their usage, but I and others have given examples of our usage to show that something is definately not right with the quantity of electricity that you are using. I'd take another look around for the extension cord to your neighbors house.


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## PV2U (Feb 21, 2011)

DBoon said:
			
		

> 32 kWh and 40 kWh per day are still the same number.  Something odd is going on that needs a deep dive.
> 
> 32 kWh per day x 30 days = 1000 kWh per month.  Subtract that off the 2000 kWh baseline in the chart chart and things start making a lot more sense to me.  A Kill-a-Watt meter would be the next best $30 you could possibly spend.



Agreed, but strangely enough, I do feel the "disconnect" exercise was useful, even though it didn't really show me anything more conclusive than "Houston, we gots prollems".  Reckon I'll get a K-a-W, or something of that nature and do some poking around and see if I can make a more specific determination.

Stay tuned...


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## PV2U (Feb 21, 2011)

steam man said:
			
		

> I have  Kill-a-Watt meter and try monitoring various electrical things.  I thought my coffee machine may be using a lot but it has only used about 3kw in a week...



Wait a minute!  You mean these gasifier whatchamacallits don't have a built-in coffee maker?  Of all the places to skimp on material! HA!  :O)

You mentioning that megger reminds me of when I was about 19 and me and this other guy were driving ground rods for transformers and then juicing them up with the megger to see if we had 'em deep enough.  The clip on the one we were using was falling apart and I had just clipped it on there and the guy was cranking the punk out of that megger and the clip broke and came off.  Out of reflex, I grabbed the bare metal clip and tried to put it back on the ground rod while my buddy was still cranking like a maniac!  I don't have to tell you it was like grabbing the third rail of the metro! HA!  I thought for sure there was going to be a serious injury that day... no, not me, but I was afraid the other guy was gonna bust a gut laughing!  Especially since after the juice hit me, my second reflex was to jump up and take off running. Why? I dunno!  I reckon I ran about 4 or 5 steps before I could rein myself in! LOL  Yeah, a real kneeslapper, that one!  :OD


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## PV2U (Feb 21, 2011)

NYEDGE said:
			
		

> ...My usage for January was 1931 KW for a 4,500 SF house using air handlers for 4 zones, and 3 circulator pumps in my heating system...


Great Guns!  I didn't know the Taj Mahal was wired for electric! HA!  3x the house and 1/2 the power bill!?!?!  Dang, I'm getting a complex! :O)



			
				NYEDGE said:
			
		

> ...
> Some common things I do to save on electricity costs:
> 1) Every single light bulb in my house is a CFL (compact fluorescent). Today's technology allows for the light to be a pleasing color, and they save a boat load of money. If you haven't switched yet, give it a try and you will see immediate savings. When we moved in, the previous owners had 100 watt floods in all the recessed lights in the house. I switched all of them out to 14 watt CFL bulbs that put out 65 watts worth of light. Big difference is consumption right?, now multiply that about 94 bulbs inside and that allot of savings.
> 2) All the outdoor security flood lights work on motion sensors so that they are not burning electricity all the time. (They are halogen because CFL bulbs do not work well for this purpose)
> ...



1) I have a very few CFLs in the house.  To be honest, I've been resisting them due to the additional hassle of disposing of them properly once they're done.  However, I do think that the Lowe's down the street is taking them now, so I may revisit that option.
2) Good Idea.  I know my floodlights have to cost me $10 a month.
3) Another good one.  Have thought about that, but haven't implemented it yet.
4) I don't have any really old, or maybe even moderately old appliances, but I do have a 50" plasma tv that I'm sure takes WAY too much power.  The last one I bought was a LCD (though not LED), and so I'll probably eventually replace the plasma with something else in not-to-distant future.  Depends on what the Kill-A-Watt test looks like.

Thanks for the comments/noitions/ideas, NYE, very much appreciated! :O)


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## PV2U (Feb 21, 2011)

Just for kicks, added in the cooling days.  Looks like things are tracking pretty well, peaks-and-valleys wise.


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## steam man (Feb 21, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> steam man said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I could hear you now "Don't taze me bro"!  LOL


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## NYEDGE (Feb 21, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> Just for kicks, added in the cooling days.  Looks like things are tracking pretty well, peaks-and-valleys wise.



Taking a look at your completed chart, your usage does reflect a correct pattern for the heating and cooling period. The peeks and valleys of the heating and cooling do match the demand pattern, and the overlap of the HDD and CDD do match the low usage spots on the KWH graph line. Your winter usage is double the summer usage, and that points to the heat pump as a possible culprit.
You didn't mention what cooling method you use in the summer, do you use air conditioning, and what kind?
Do you have a pool that does electric for a pump in the summer?

Usually most people use more electric in the summer months for cooling, except if you have electric base boards, or in your case, a heat pump that possibly is drawing too much.
I don't have any experience with heat pumps, but I would expect them to draw similar loads as a central air conditioning unit similar in size. This may explain you "reverse" pattern of usage for a given year.
Checked my electric bills for the summer, and August had the most usage at 2057 KWH.
During the summer months we run 3 central air condensers/blowers for the house set to 72 degrees, and a pool pump and salt water chlorinator that runs 9 hrs. per day, 7 days a week, and still use about 200 KWH less than you do.

Your heat pump deserves a serious looking at, but I still feel that you have too much usage during the shoulder season. Please fill us in on your cooling habits for the summer.


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## PV2U (Feb 21, 2011)

NYEDGE said:
			
		

> ...Your heat pump deserves a serious looking at, but I still feel that you have too much usage during the shoulder season. Please fill us in on your cooling habits for the summer...



Nope, no pool and the house is cooled with the heat pump as well.  I usually keep it around 74/75.  And yeah, that excess shoulder season usage seems to be reflected in the 32 kWh I used the other day when I turned off the biggest of the loads and sort of coasted.  There are a lot of things that in my house that could probably be optimized, but it seems to me that there is something else that needs to be identified.  

I wonder... no, it just couldn't be the industrial aluminum smelting operation I have going on in the shed!  HA!!  :OP

Reckon I'll get a Kill-A-Watt next.  Or, I may do a comprehensive circuit-by-circuit check to see which one has the golden ticket first, but that may prove too much of a pain.  We'll see!!


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## benjamin (Feb 21, 2011)

Another random thought, along the lines of the smelting, is hot water.  After heating and cooling, the water heater is by for the largest energy use.  Sometimes water lines get buried just deep enough not to freeze which gives you well water that is under 40 degrees this time of year, combine this with high flow showerheads, laundry etc and pretty soon you're talking about real money.


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## PV2U (Feb 21, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> Another random thought, along the lines of the smelting, is hot water.  After heating and cooling, the water heater is by for the largest energy use.  Sometimes water lines get buried just deep enough not to freeze which gives you well water that is under 40 degrees this time of year, combine this with high flow showerheads, laundry etc and pretty soon you're talking about real money.



Hmmm... I'm going to measure the temp of my outdoor spigot and see what the inlet temp of the water to my water heater is.


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## PV2U (Mar 2, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> Hmmm... I'm going to measure the temp of my outdoor spigot and see what the inlet temp of the water to my water heater is.



Okay, I checked that the other day.  It was a warmish day, and I couldn't get the water to read below 70F!  I can't hardly believe that, so I'm thinking that it was just the water in the pressure tank had warmed to that point and I probably didn't hold it long enough to drain it out to get fresh well water in there - at any rate, I decided to try something else.

My "Energy Detective" should be here tomorrow - I am THRILLED!  After everything I've read, I believe it will be an awesome tool to do the exact thing I want it to = give me a real time "kWh-per-hr" reading while I run around turning off all the breakers.  It should even be able to point out if I have a bad meter or not.

Will post my results as they roll in.  Assuming they roll in! :O)


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## NYEDGE (Mar 8, 2011)

PV2U said:
			
		

> PV2U said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, did you find anything out with the "Energy Detective"?
I checked into that gadget, and while it has mixed reviews, overall most people thought it performed well.

Let us know what's been gobbling up your electric.  hh:


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## PV2U (Mar 10, 2011)

NYEDGE said:
			
		

> ...
> So, did you find anything out with the "Energy Detective"?
> I checked into that gadget, and while it has mixed reviews, overall most people thought it performed well.
> 
> Let us know what's been gobbling up your electric.  hh:



Hey Edge!

Thanks for checking in - I got it installed and it's working great so far.  I'm establishing some use patterns and have noticed some things I can't explain.  I'm going to post some graphics in the next couple of days.  Stay tuned for the full report!  :coolsmile:


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