# MaryAnne the Tarm MB30 looking for all the Mike Mulligans



## aka.bugle (Oct 16, 2013)

MaryAnne is a Tarm MB30 boiler...  72,000 btu




she will be hooked up to 1000 gallons of water storage (my tanks, Mark Schoellig did the welding)




and I'm planning on using these 2 freon tanks for expansion tanks. (114 gallons expansion tank total) I'm hoping that mounting them ontop the 1000 gallon storage will be sufficiently tall. (could they be mounted on the floor?) I can't afford a large bladder tank.



these 5 rads will be the main heat for the home, with some pex in floor radiant in the bathrooms later.


So far... I've purchased an automag for a dump zone,  a Termovar loading unit, and a few 2" and 1 1/4" fittings

I'm going to have alot of questions


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## Nofossil (Oct 16, 2013)

Looks like you're off to a great start. Lots of questions and decisions. There are a couple of plumbing stickies at the top of this forum that go over two of the most common basic configurations, but even within those there are nearly uncountable decisions. You're in the right place - folks here are really knowledgeable and willing to help. Be ready to post diagrams and sketches as you progress.


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## OldStoneHouse (Oct 16, 2013)

Very nice rads!


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## aka.bugle (Oct 16, 2013)

OldStoneHouse said:


> Very nice rads!


  thanks!  25 bucks a pop (my back!) hauled em home, sat for a year, pressure tested them, had a mobile sandblast guy clean them up, then I gave them a coat of acid etch primer and 2 coats of 2013 Mercedes Benz Iridium Grey. (still got that diisocyanate guilt trip though!)


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## WireNut (Oct 16, 2013)

Mobile sandblaster sounds like a great idea, mind if I ask what you paid?  I need to get mine redone, and I was going to send them out to be blasted and powdercoated to get the years of housepaint someone put on them off....but the cost was outrageous....buy my own sandblaster and compressor that could run it outrageous.


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## hobbyheater (Oct 16, 2013)

aka.bugle

You will need boiler return water protection . The return water temperature from storage can be continuously low ( 90 /120 F) . this will give you major creosote  problems both on the boiler firebox walls and up the chimney .If you can keep the water in the boiler at 160 /170  F  you will have a lot more success with regards to a cleaner burn .
I learned this lesson the hard way 30+ years ago !

Welcome to"Hearth"


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## maple1 (Oct 16, 2013)

I think his termovar loading unit would handle the return temp protection?

Your welder should be able to field a few questions & pointers.


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## aka.bugle (Oct 16, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I think his termovar loading unit would handle the return temp protection?
> 
> Your welder should be able to field a few questions & pointers.


 but Man... is he busy!  (the termovar loading unit  does this, but Mark is saying the circulator on the loading unit is probably too small)


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## aka.bugle (Oct 16, 2013)

WireNut said:


> Mobile sandblaster sounds like a great idea, mind if I ask what you paid?  I need to get mine redone, and I was going to send them out to be blasted and powdercoated to get the years of housepaint someone put on them off....but the cost was outrageous....buy my own sandblaster and compressor that could run it outrageous.


$500 ...   but he did do a couple extra doo-dads!


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## ewdudley (Oct 16, 2013)

aka.bugle said:


> So far... I've purchased an automag for a dump zone,  a Termovar loading unit, and a few 2" and 1 1/4" fittings


Looks like you've done your homework!

Termovar loading unit should have plenty of capacity for a 72 kBTU boiler.

Shouldn't need dump zone if top of boiler is three or four feet below the top of storage.  Loading unit should be able to provide power-fail heat dump to storage, assuming you mean a Termovar loading unit with integral low resistance check and not a Termovar return protection mixing valve.


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## hobbyheater (Oct 16, 2013)

maple1 said:


> I think his termovar loading unit would handle the return temp protection?



Yes I believe you are right !  I missed that opps !


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## maple1 (Oct 16, 2013)

My loading unit has a 3 speed Grundfoss 15-58 circ. It works great on speed 1, with my 140kbtu boiler. I can't imagine a loading unit not being able to handle a 72k btu unit - but what is the make & model?

You definitely have all the major ingredients assembled - and those are very nice rads.


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## aka.bugle (Oct 16, 2013)

72K MaryAnne has her coal grates and shaker bar installed (her wood grates are stowed close by)...... but she need a coal baffle........ I may have to fashion one out of firebricks and plugit. wish I could find some better pictures or drawings of the pieces. (I think it looks like paired tables tipped up on their ends,
I have Sooooo much homework left....  brace that stay, heave ho, one pull at a time. if you slip, grab back on.
I need a further pump and load with panic dumping explanation from welder dude in ny, (he may have had MaryAnne confused with CalciferusMaximus)


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## aka.bugle (Oct 27, 2013)

update and simple heat cypher rehash...
   ... the battery pack for the house will take ___ hours to charge from cold fill w/MaryAnne... 1200 gallons times (180 - 50 degrees F) times 8.34 divided by 72K. Give or take! sooooooooooooo.....   18 hours 5 minutes? really? (probably much longer without the pack super insulated)


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## ewdudley (Oct 27, 2013)

aka.bugle said:


> update and simple heat cypher rehash...
> ... the battery pack for the house will take ___ hours to charge from cold fill w/MaryAnne... 1200 gallons times (180 - 50 degrees F) times 8.34 divided by 72K. Give or take! sooooooooooooo.....   18 hours 5 minutes? really? (probably much longer without the pack super insulated)
> View attachment 115957


Yep, figures don't lie!

```
You have: ((1200 gal)(8.34 lb/gal)(btu/(lb degF))((180-50)degF))/(72000 btu/hour)
You want: hour
          18.07
```
Is that a bronze shell and tube HX for DHW?  I didn't notice it in the prior photo.  I wonder if it would feed by gravity if you mounted it a foot or two above the tanks.


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## aka.bugle (Oct 27, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> Yep, figures don't lie!
> Is that a bronze shell and tube HX for DHW?  I didn't notice it in the prior photo.  I wonder if it would feed by gravity if you mounted it a foot or two above the tanks.


its a steel shell (copper tubes) the only rating I have for it (so far) is max 300F max 300psi. 1 1/2" ports to the shell and 1" ports to the tubes, and a couple other small paired ports. I have 2 of them purchased @ industrial auction...  they're monsters! (coolers for big compressors)      I like your thinking!      my sweetie is going to try and track specs down from Sullair.


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## ewdudley (Oct 27, 2013)

aka.bugle said:


> its a steel shell (copper tubes) the only rating I have for it (so far) is max 300F max 300psi. 1 1/2" ports to the shell and 1" ports to the tubes, and a couple other small paired ports. I have 2 of them purchased @ industrial auction...  they're monsters! (coolers for big compressors)      I like your thinking!      my sweetie is going to try and track specs down from Sullair.


They're designed to dump a huge amount of heat using large temperature differentials, but I would think you're only looking to sip ten or twenty thousand BTU per hour with small temperature differentials, assuming you'd be using it to recharge a hot water heater tank.  You'd only need less than a gpm from the pump, something like a Taco 003 bronze or stainless steel.  The multiple returns to the tanks in the sketch are to help insure that the return water can find its level.

If there's a port into the shell that could come in from the top that would be even better.

Probably need to plan for possibility the gravity flow doesn't work out, in which case would need to add another pump.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 4, 2013)

Well... I'm not ready for the heat exchangers yet... need help w/ location of inline air separator  and compression tanks...
   I've got some conflicting advise pertaining to the proper location of the air separator... 
I've located it (on paper) on the outfeed line of the boiler (hottest water loses most air)
Yet the compression tanks are supposed to be located at the suction side of the circulator  (B & G "pump away" philosophy)  I can't do that w/ the LK810 loading unit ,as it can't be mounted on the outfeed of the boiler.
Here's what I come up with as an alternative...


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## maple1 (Nov 5, 2013)

Compression tanks? I assume those are expansion tanks?

Do they have bladders? If so, you can put those anywhere, as long as they are tied to your system (e.g. can't get isolated by a check valve or the like). They don't need to plumb directly to a scoop. Mine is just T'd in to my zone return line, just upstream from my zone circ - my zone circ is down low at the end of my zones rather than the supply side of them (i.e. I'm not pumping away). Mine is not a bladder tank, it likely should be - I think it has absorbed a bit of water in the year it has been in service.

My main air scoop ('separator'?) is on my main zone supply header, just before it splits off to all the zone valves. It just has an autovent screwed into the top of it. I also have 2 other autovents scattered around at other high spots.

So, looking at your diagram, my air separator is where your zone circ is (a high point), my zone circ is down low right before the tank return header, and my expansion tank T's in there just before the circ. And my autofill/backflow stuff enters directly into the top of my boiler via another tapping - and I keep that valved off, only open the valve if my system needs a bit of water. Otherwise, your system is pretty darn close to what mine looks like. BTW, I'd highly recommend a VS pump for your zone pump - like a Grundfoss Alpha.

All IMO, of course - I'm no pro, and a pro likely would have done mine a bit different than what I did. But mine works for me, quite well (I mighta got lucky with that).

EDIT: My layout ended up like it did due a lot to where I could fit stuff into my spaces, and how I could most easily tie it all together and still have it work. If I had had a clean page to work from (like planning a new system in a new (uncluttered) space), I might have done some things differently. But I'm happy with how it turned out.

EDIT AGAIN: One more difference in mine & yours - I only have one header at the bottom of storage, return from zones & flow back to boiler return meet there. So on yours, that would mean the return from zones would enter your pipe between the bottom of storage & 'spirovent dirt trap'.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 5, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Compression tanks? I assume those are expansion tanks?
> 
> Do they have bladders? If so, you can put those anywhere, as long as they are tied to your system (e.g. can't get isolated by a check valve or the like). They don't need to plumb directly to a scoop. Mine is just T'd in to my zone return line, just upstream from my zone circ - my zone circ is down low at the end of my zones rather than the supply side of them (i.e. I'm not pumping away). Mine is not a bladder tank, it likely should be - I think it has absorbed a bit of water in the year it has been in service.



Maple,  no, they are just plain steel tanks. ( came from my local scrap steel yard w/ 5 full port 3/4" ball valves on each one!)


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 5, 2013)

OK for 25 points does anyone remember who Mike Mulligan was?  (think kids books)

No fair using google.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 5, 2013)

Bad Wolf said:


> OK for 25 points does anyone remember who Mike Mulligan was?  (think kids books)


     There is no love like a man for his MaryAnne... blessed be the town folk, the little boys and their clever ideas.


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## maple1 (Nov 5, 2013)

Sorry, I had to cheat - never heard of Mike or MaryAnne before. Must have led a sheltered childhood or something, or I'm forgetting in my older age - but now that I know, that's a pretty neat story.

Anyway, on your compression tanks - I'd get them as high as possible. Mine is sitting on the floor, likely breaking a few hydronic rules the way I did it - it works but I am still trying to figure out the best way to improve that some day in the future for my situation. In the background of my head like. I don't think it matters if they're tied into the air separator or not.


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## arbutus (Nov 5, 2013)

Mike loved his MaryAnne.
We have the book.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 5, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Sorry, I had to cheat - never heard of Mike or MaryAnne before. Must have led a sheltered childhood or something, or I'm forgetting in my older age - but now that I know, that's a pretty neat story.
> 
> Anyway, on your compression tanks - I'd get them as high as possible. Mine is sitting on the floor, likely breaking a few hydronic rules the way I did it - it works but I am still trying to figure out the best way to improve that some day in the future for my situation. In the background of my head like. I don't think it matters if they're tied into the air separator or not.



I've got plenty of room above everything... Plan on mounting them, side by side, 8' up, w/ an airtrol in each one, fed thru a tee and a 3/4 line from the separator. Most of my pipe size is 1 1/4", B&G makes a 1 1/4" cast iron inline air separator, but the top fitting is only 1/8" npt (autovent).... the boss is probably big enough to tap to 1"... I tapped it to 3/4" npt and will feed this to the airtrols in the tanks.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 5, 2013)

arbutus said:


> Mike loved his MaryAnne.
> We have the book.


I've got a real beat up old copy, (and a pristine reprint)  This ones a sweet trip too! Uncle-Louies-Fantastic-Sea-Voyage


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## webbie (Nov 5, 2013)

This is why I love our members! Information, intelligence and personality. World-class.
Onward!


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## arbutus (Nov 5, 2013)

aka.bugle said:


> I've got a real beat up old copy, (and a pristine reprint)  This ones a sweet trip too! Uncle-Louies-Fantastic-Sea-Voyage


I haven't seen that one.  I'll ask my wife to see if the library has it the next time she takes the kids (once every other week).
Katy and the Big Snow is another good one by the same author as Mike Mulligan.  Our copies of both these books are very old, but the kids love them.
My apologies for the hijacking.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm trying to get my inline air separator closer to my expansion tanks.... is there any problem mounting the LK810 loading unit 12' from the boiler? (all 1 1/4" pipe, sloped for panic gravity flow)


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## 700renegade (Nov 6, 2013)

air separator belongs on the lowest pressure, hottest part of the system - normally this would be just above the boiler ( especially if you were 'pumping away'.  most of us with ladomatt or danfoss cannot do this ).

Since your tanks are already stacked vertically why not take advantage of the stratification benefits?  And if the piping is done right you shouldn't need the automag you mentioned in the first post.

I'm not sure why the air-trolls are needed in this system.  Perhaps I have something to learn.

Personally I wouldn't want autofill.  If I need to add a few gallons I'd want to know it happened because I did it manually.

This is how I see this system:


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## ewdudley (Nov 6, 2013)

700renegade said:


> air separator belongs on the lowest pressure, hottest part of the system - normally this would be just above the boiler ( especially if you were 'pumping away'.  most of us with ladomatt or danfoss cannot do this ).
> 
> Since your tanks are already stacked vertically why not take advantage of the stratification benefits?  And if the piping is done right you shouldn't need the automag you mentioned in the first post.
> 
> ...


Ditto, ditto, ditto.  (I would add only that 'pumping away' is not relevant in a boiler-storage loop with fat short pipes. (1.0" or larger, 30 ft or shorter round trip, 20 gpm or less. [Edit:] Let's just say less than 3.5 psi or so of head.))


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## aka.bugle (Nov 6, 2013)

Renegade... Thank you!     are you showing in your pdf the expansion tanks connected at the cold return? I guess I don't  understand how a spirovent works ???... I'm showing a B&G Inline Air Sep'  at the hot side of the boiler, B&G airtrols and expansion tanks 3/4" pipe from top of B&G IAS.

ewdudley... 





> (I would add only that 'pumping away' is not relevant in a boiler-storage loop with fat short pipes. (1.0" or larger, 30 ft or shorter round trip, 20 gpm or less.)


   I'm at 1+1/4"  and under 30' .... wahoo!  (and the automag is nixed, returned and restocked in New Hampshire)


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## ewdudley (Nov 7, 2013)

aka.bugle said:


> Renegade... Thank you!     are you showing in your pdf the expansion tanks connected at the cold return? I guess I don't  understand how a spirovent works ???... I'm showing a B&G Inline Air Sep'  at the hot side of the boiler, B&G airtrols and expansion tanks 3/4" pipe from top of B&G IAS.


I think the B&G air separator and Renegade's Spirovent accomplish the same function of separating gas from the flow leaving the boiler.  Renegade has added a separate line for expansion water that should be helpful because the water flow to the expansion tank would be cooler and waste a little less heat.  Also note that Renegade's design has a line from the top of one tank to the other, which is necessary to equalize the water levels in the tanks.



> ewdudley...    I'm at 1+1/4"  and under 30' .... wahoo!  (and the automag is nixed, returned and restocked in New Hampshire)


I was attempting to invent a rule of thumb for when not to worry about 'pumping away', I've since backpedaled to say don't worry about it if pump head is fairly low.



700renegade said:


> I'm not sure why the air-trolls are needed in this system. Perhaps I have something to learn.



I may not have this right, but I think the big thing an Airtrol can do for a system is to prevent a small gentle thermosiphon of hot water up one side of the pipe to the non-bladder expansion tank and a corresponding flow of cool water down the other side.  The hot water can absorb gas as it cools in the expansion tank and will deliver the absorbed gas back into the system via the cold water flow, which can add up over the years. Airtrols have a chamber that  acts as a thermal trap to prevent this flow.


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## 700renegade (Nov 7, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> I may not have this right, but I think the big thing an Airtrol can do for a system is to prevent a small gentle thermosiphon of hot water up one side of the pipe to the non-bladder expansion tank and a corresponding flow of cool water down the other side. The hot water can absorb gas as it cools in the expansion tank and will deliver the absorbed gas back into the system via the cold water flow, which can add up over the years. Airtrols have a chamber that acts as a thermal trap to prevent this flow.



If you purchase a Taco Vortech ( I accidentally named it a Hyvent in my diagram as an alternative to the Spirovent ) you can peel the high capacity Hy-Vent auto vent out of the top of it. ( 3/4" mpt )   Put the salvaged vent on top of your storage or wherever else you need it. Run the lines like I show them and for the most part you'll have lukewarm water fed to the expansion tanks and the driver for the thermosiphon is gone.  use a 1/2" pex to feed the expansion tank pair and put a thermal trap in the line as it rises if you wish.

Should save you a bunch of money in parts and with any luck it might even work.

p.s. - if you try to remove the #419 Hy-vent realize you cannot spin it out by conventional means.  If you try to put a pipe wrench on the valve body you are sure to crush it as it's very thin brass.  You may have to drive it out by inserting a 1/2" nipple on the internal threads and hope it's not in that cast body too tight


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## ewdudley (Nov 7, 2013)

700renegade said:


> Run the lines like I show them and for the most part you'll have lukewarm water fed to the expansion tanks and the driver for the thermosiphon is gone. use a 1/2" pex to feed the expansion tank pair and put a thermal trap in the line as it rises if you wish. Should save you a bunch of money in parts and with any luck it might even work


Seems like this would definitely eliminate the need for the Airtrol fittings.  I'm still having a hard time believing that the thermosiphon thing is a real problem in the first place, especially when connecting to the return line with small diameter pipe, but I suppose it can't hurt to play along with the teachings of the ancients by adding a heat trap in the piping.


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## maple1 (Nov 7, 2013)

I've got my wye-strainer just upstream of the cold return to my loading unit, between the loading unit & the bottom of the storage tanks.

Chances are the best potential for dirt would be coming out of the bottom of storage, and the most expensive component in the circuit is the loading unit - so I put 2 & 2 together & got that.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 18, 2013)

Ok now....  I've sent the LK810 back to the supplier  (I can't afford a new Mercedes either!) I'm going with a cast iron Grundfos  circulator on the supply from the boiler (same specs as the bronze LK810 unit) and a Danfoss thermic valve fitted with a 140 deg. element on the return. I plan on using a battery backup UPS for the circulator in lieu of the automag for power loss/ heat dump situations....   Comments?


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## 700renegade (Nov 19, 2013)

The C3 circulator is traditionally between the Danfoss mix valve and the boiler, and the Automag piping would span across both the Danfoss and the pump.  If you leave the check valve in the pump you will get no thermosiphon the way you show it now.

I'm still not sure why the Airtrols are there, and would stand the storage tanks on end if I had ceiling height.  Most guys here aren't crazy about autofill.  I'd rather have a sight gauge on my expansion tanks and do it manually.

I'd also put the expansion tanks vertical if possible to minimize the area of air/water interface.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 19, 2013)

I've got to raise my compression tanks up to get a air control line from the storage tanks sloped up a minimum 1" in 5'. I've got room, heave ho!  And What do you guys think about getting rid of the autovents in the storage altogether?  forgot to put the y strainer in the sketch (on the return from the storage tanks  before Danfoss 140* .) The automag is an option I probably won't do as I have a 600 watt UPS to run the circulator in the event of power loss. (happens all the time here in the Endless Mtns, PA)


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## ewdudley (Nov 19, 2013)

I think it's been mentioned above but may bear repeating; system return/boiler return connect to bottom of lower tank, system supply/boiler supply connect to top of upper tank, top of lower tank connects to bottom of upper tank.


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## aka.bugle (Nov 19, 2013)

ewdudley said:


> I think it's been mentioned above but may bear repeating; system return/boiler return connect to bottom of lower tank, system supply/boiler supply connect to top of upper tank, top of lower tank connects to bottom of upper tank.


  I get that...  is that not what I've shown?


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## 700renegade (Nov 19, 2013)

aka.bugle said:


> I get that...  is that not what I've shown?


 No - you are showing the tanks in parallel, not series.


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## maple1 (Nov 19, 2013)

I kinda butchered your drawing to show the series thing. Someone may be able to improve.


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## aka.bugle (Dec 18, 2013)

Primary circuit plumbing done... light pressure test of the 1200 gallon system.


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## iceguy4 (Dec 18, 2013)

WireNut said:


> Mobile sandblaster sounds like a great idea, mind if I ask what you paid?  I need to get mine redone, and I was going to send them out to be blasted and powdercoated to get the years of housepaint someone put on them off....but the cost was outrageous....buy my own sandblaster and compressor that could run it outrageous.


  It is expensive...but well worth it!  I paid $900+ for 5 radiators to be done..ALL casting roughness was covered by what looks like a ceramic coating...there like a bath tub


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## aka.bugle (Dec 18, 2013)

Results this morning...
#1 bubble @ 1st 2" nipple upper tank left return
#2 leak (just a loose union)
#3 leak (used 1/2" ball valve @ packing nut , before fill valve) (not shown)

Time to get the smoke pipe fitted to MaryAnne, rinse the all vessels and make some hot water.


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## maple1 (Dec 18, 2013)

Are your tanks stacked, or are they side-by-side?


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## aka.bugle (Dec 18, 2013)

maple1 said:


> Are your tanks stacked?



storage... piggy back in parallel. 
 air control ... tandem side by side


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## Barnheat (Mar 11, 2016)

Everyone, I apologize for breaking into an old post and I can only hope that someone sees this. I have just been given a MB 0 30 boiler and I know nothing about it. I need a manual and to learn how it works. It is old but fully functional and only being replaced by a new one after many years of service. It have been in my son in-laws, fathers, garage for a long time and still works. I am in the process of building a barn in Maine and thought since he was going to give it to me it was worth looking into how it works. He said he will burn oil, coal and wood and put off a lot of heat at 72,000 BTU and would keep the barn warm during the cold winter months. Does anyone have a manual or can tell me where to get one? This is photo of the Info Plate:


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