# Black walnut plantation....anyone got one?



## Pat53 (Dec 13, 2013)

Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?

It's winter, so that generally means I'm bored out of my mind ! I'm just itchin' to fire up the Husky and start dropping timber....LOL.  I've got about 6 acres across the road from my house that is mainly second growth aspen, soft maple and white birch, with some red oak, black cherry and red/white pine mixed in. I've been reading a lot about people who plant timber species, especially black walnut, as future investment trees. Now I'll never see a stick of wood from these trees, but my kids/grandkids should some day.

Purdue University has been working with black walnut and other timber species like oak and black cherry for years and have now produced genetically superior stock that grows straighter and faster than regular native trees. My local soil conservation guy is coming out to look at the site next week. If he likes it I can get a 50/50 cost-share for buying the seedlings  and some other expenses. I figure it would cost me about $4,500 for the seedlings, tree fencing/shelters and fertilizer without any cost share money. I can probably get at least that much for the aspen, birch and pine logs alone. The maple, cherry and oak I would probably just keep for firewood, maybe sell a few oak logs if they are any good.

I figure I could clear cut the whole thing by March and have everything decked up a few weeks later.

Am I NUTS !?

Pat


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## Jags (Dec 13, 2013)

Yep - yer nuts.  I wouldn't plant a black walnut within shooting distance.  Mow, mow, ZING..mow, mow, WHAP.
And don't plan on anything else growing in the vicinity. Black walnuts are notorious for killing off other stuff.
Also - check the market for black walnut.  They don't bring what they once used to unless they are of veneer quality.

(to be honest - I am biased - I just don't like them as a yard tree.  A plantation of them may be different).


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## tcassavaugh (Dec 13, 2013)

if you want to plant trees, try a small Christmas tree lot......start with a couple of acres and see how they do. that way, you don't have to wait forever to get any return on your investment.....and there is pretty much always a market, well at least a holiday.


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## Pat53 (Dec 13, 2013)

Jags said:


> Yep - yer nuts.  I wouldn't plant a black walnut within shooting distance.  Mow, mow, ZING..mow, mow, WHAP.
> And don't plan on anything else growing in the vicinity. Black walnuts are notorious for killing off other stuff.
> Also - check the market for black walnut.  They don't bring what they once used to unless they are of veneer quality.
> 
> (to be honest - I am biased - I just don't like them as a yard tree.  A plantation of them may be different).



Well, yes black walnut will kill a lot of other trees/plants that grow near it, and I would also never plant them as a yard tree.  These trees would be a pure stand, except for the black alder I was going to intercrop with them. According to the literature, for timber production, you start with about 10' X 10' spacing both ways, so you initially plant about 400+ trees/acre. between each tree you plant an alder tree which has 2 purposes. First, they are nitrogen fixing trees (they add nitrogen to the soil) which aid in development and growth of the walnut. Secondly, they sort of force the walnut trees to grow more upright with fewer side branches. After about 10-15 years the walnut trees will eventually kill the alders. You eventually thin the trees as they get bigger until after about 30 years or so you only end up with about 40-50 trees/acre. The goal is to get trees with at least 17-20' of straight and clean trunks that will make veneer or high quality sawlogs. Each tree can potentially be worth $2K-$5K, sometimes more depending on how many sawlogs it can produce. Even the smaller trees that are thinned out can be used for gunstocks and other uses. The nuts can also be sold for eating or seed stock.

My plan would be to put about 2/3 of the acreage in black walnut and the other 1/3 with black cherry and red oak which of course are also used for furniture, etc..

And yes, I fully expect the economy to get much worse before it gets better, perhaps for a decade or more. If I do this, my hope would be that when these trees are mature the economy will be good again and the market will be good for quality timber producing species like walnut, oak and cherry. In addition, there is now a disease called "thousand cankers disease" that is spreading through the western states and is now in some of the eastern states that is killing black walnut trees. It is caused by a walnut twig beetle (they are very tiny) that spreads a fungus that kills the trees. The beetles are native to the southwest US and have been detected as far north as southern Ohio, but researchers don't believe they would be ale to survive this far north. So unfortunately for many walnut plantations in the central US, they may find their plantations destroyed by these bugs and the only place walnut trees would survive would be in colder regions of the country. There are no walnut plantations of any size up here that I'm aware of, but I do know people who have a tree here and there on their property. they are hardy to zone 4.

But I agree, either way I am a NUTS !! Maybe this nut will go ahead anyway and try to produce some WAL-NUTS !! 

Pat


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## Pat53 (Dec 13, 2013)

tcassavaugh said:


> if you want to plant trees, try a small Christmas tree lot......start with a couple of acres and see how they do. that way, you don't have to wait forever to get any return on your investment.....and there is pretty much always a market, well at least a holiday.



Yeah, I thought about them before, but there are lots of guys who grow them here now. They grow them for 8-10 years and they only get about $20-$25 for them (fraser, douglas, concolor fir). Not much return in my opinion and they still need to be fenced from the deer, pruned and sprayed for bugs every year.


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## mass_burner (Dec 13, 2013)

If your banking on walnut being hot in the future your, well, nuts. You can't know what will be in style that far in advance. Even if the economy is raging, maybe folks will want maple furniture and veneer. This whole mid-century modern thing will pass. Everything does.

Christmas trees sounds safer; or maybe Festivus poles?


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## Paulywalnut (Dec 13, 2013)

I have about 25 walnut trees. I would get rid of all of them if I could. They grow on their own from the walnut falling and splitting. Messy, a lot of work and nothing grows under them except grass. When you want to sell them they have to be pristine no flaws, straight runs. Not worth it. Grow locust and oak trees and burn them


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## BillLion (Dec 13, 2013)

Or get a plantation of osage orange (the Holy Grail of firewood) going, cut it, split it, stack it, sell it and drop ship it, and then make tons of money off of your fellow Hearth.com peeps!


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## etiger2007 (Dec 13, 2013)

Three years ago I sold five walnut trees for 5K, they were two yard trees and three trees in the woods Ill never miss.  I have a bunch more and they are the messiest tree there is.  The guy that bought them doubled his money on them.


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## oldspark (Dec 13, 2013)

etiger2007 said:


> Three years ago I sold five walnut trees for 5K, they were two yard trees and three trees in the woods Ill never miss.  I have a bunch more and they are the messiest tree there is.  The guy that bought them doubled his money on them.


Do they have to be a real nice tree to get that kind of money, how large?


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## etiger2007 (Dec 13, 2013)

Heres a pic of one in the backyard, they only wanted the trunk so I got alot of fire wood too. They were all about this big around but this one had the longest run until the branches started.


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## etiger2007 (Dec 13, 2013)

etiger2007 said:


> Heres a pic of one in the backyard, they only wanted the trunk so I got alot of fire wood too. They were all about this big around but this one had the longest run until the branches started.


 Well heres two pics of the yard trees.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 13, 2013)

Pat, I do not think you are nuts at all. However, I always question people trying to make it with walnut trees. Indeed, some trees will give you a great return, just like Ed posted above. However, it has been 50+ years since my logging and sawing days and I do not see the walnut tree prices keeping pace with what they were bringing back then. It is sort of like the red oaks. It was common not that many years ago to sell a good red oak tree for up to $3000. Today you can hardly give them away. However, the neighboring land owner did sell some last summer. The average price was $100 per tree. So it is sort of a crap shoot. 

Still I am intrigued with what the Purdue University is doing. They may be onto something and if the walnuts do die off in some area, this could be a boon to you if you plant some of them. One other thing you might consider is to visit a few mills and ask questions about walnut logs and how much they are worth. I'm thinking the mill near Stevenson might be a good one to check.


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## Pat53 (Dec 13, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Pat, I do not think you are nuts at all. However, I always question people trying to make it with walnut trees. Indeed, some trees will give you a great return, just like Ed posted above. However, it has been 50+ years since my logging and sawing days and I do not see the walnut tree prices keeping pace with what they were bringing back then. It is sort of like the red oaks. It was common not that many years ago to sell a good red oak tree for up to $3000. Today you can hardly give them away. However, the neighboring land owner did sell some last summer. The average price was $100 per tree. So it is sort of a crap shoot.
> 
> Still I am intrigued with what the Purdue University is doing. They may be onto something and if the walnuts do die off in some area, this could be a boon to you if you plant some of them. One other thing you might consider is to visit a few mills and ask questions about walnut logs and how much they are worth. I'm thinking the mill near Stevenson might be a good one to check.



Hi Sav, I really don't have a clue if those trees would be worth anything 40-50 years from now. It all depends on the economy and the supply and demand for the wood at the time. They say these trees can be ready for harvest in as little as 35 years, but that is on good sites and in longer growing seasons. Up here I'm probably looking at 40-45 years. I just think it would be kind of a neat project to start and it just might turn out some day to be worth a lot of money. Right now, that 6 acres isn't ever going to produce much as far as timber value, and I could easily cover the cost of my investment with the wood, so why not give it a try? To do this right, you have to do a fair bit of work each year to insure the trees grow straight, are properly pruned when needed, and are kept weed free for at least the first 3-4 years. They have to be protected from deer/rabbits/mice also, that is an absolute must. I'm semi-retired and I have the time to do the maintenance and upkeep, plus I love working outdoors in the woods. In 40 years if the wood isn't worth much, someone will have 6 good acres of firewood.  LOL

The genetically improved trees they produce now grow at least twice as fast and with straighter trunks than wild trees. Still, if you don't keep a close eye on the trees for the first 8-10 years then there's no point in even planting them. After that time period they are pretty much on their own, only need an occasional pruning here and there. One reason for planting so many at the start is so you can kind of weed out the bad ones as you thin them.

And yes, there is a real possibility that the disease that is killing walnut trees down south could potentially wipe out the vast majority of plantations in 10-20 years time, making the surviving trees worth that much more. These walnut twig beetles are already in Kentucky, North Carolina, Missouri, Virginia and several other eastern and Midwest states. The walnut growers are very concerned about it. These bugs that kill trees are almost impossible to stop once they start spreading out.

Pat


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 13, 2013)

Pat, one concern is that when you cut off the popple (aspen), those regrow fast as the grow from the roots so to remove them entirely might take some bulldozing. Otherwise you might be fighting those annually. Still, I like your thinking.


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## Pat53 (Dec 13, 2013)

Backwoods Savage said:


> Pat, one concern is that when you cut off the popple (aspen), those regrow fast as the grow from the roots so to remove them entirely might take some bulldozing. Otherwise you might be fighting those annually. Still, I like your thinking.



Yes, I would have to herbicide the entire 6 acres as soon as things started growing in spring. You have kill all the stump sprouts from the oak, maple and cherry also. I would try to get the seedlings in the ground by late summer or wait to plant bare root stock the following spring. Killing all competing vegetation is something that must be done before planting the seedlings.

Here's a link to the organization that is involved in this stuff:
http://www.htirc.org/

I actually talked to the director last week, a guy named Charles Michler, who said he would try to get me set up with the seedlings if I chose to go thru with it, really nice guy and obviously very knowledgeable,


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## Paulywalnut (Dec 14, 2013)

BillLion said:


> Or get a plantation of osage orange (the Holy Grail of firewood) going, cut it, split it, stack it, sell it and drop ship it, and then make tons of money off of your fellow Hearth.com peeps!


Hedge  or osage only grows along fence lines. lol. Could you see people carrying a shrink wrap pack of osage from the grocery store?


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## EatenByLimestone (Dec 14, 2013)

probably not when there is a nice, dust free Duraflame that gives lots of pretty flame for less $ right next to it.


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## BillLion (Dec 14, 2013)

Paulywalnut said:


> Hedge  or osage only grows along fence lines. lol. Could you see people carrying a shrink wrap pack of osage from the grocery store?



See, you can tell I've never gotten any of "the precious"! Funny mental image. What would the shrink wrap cost -$24.99???


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## aussiedog3 (Dec 14, 2013)

Pat, sounds like you have a great plan and a passion for this project.  GO FOR IT

I've thought about the same thing in the past, I should not have waited, I could have been seven years in to it already.

Get started now.  Good luck.


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## McKraut (Dec 14, 2013)

Pat53 said:


> Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?
> 
> It's winter, so that generally means I'm bored out of my mind ! I'm just itchin' to fire up the Husky and start dropping timber....LOL.  I've got about 6 acres across the road from my house that is mainly second growth aspen, soft maple and white birch, with some red oak, black cherry and red/white pine mixed in. I've been reading a lot about people who plant timber species, especially black walnut, as future investment trees. Now I'll never see a stick of wood from these trees, but my kids/grandkids should some day.
> 
> ...




Hi Pat,

We are lucky to have quite a few native black walnut trees on our place. We started planting black walnuts about 25 years ago. We bought 100 trees from Musser Forests to get started. About 5 years ago they started producing nuts. I gather the nuts from the planted and the native trees. I bury the nuts and let them sprout and harden off over winter. Then we transplant the trees in the spring. Every other year we transplant 2 to 3 hundred trees. The deer are very hard on them. We don't tube the trees because of the expense, and have had a lot of problems with deer damage. The trees are now 30+ plus feet tall (except for the severely deer-damaged trees) and they are beautiful. I look at them and think that I will be dead before they are worth anything. It will be something that the kids and grandkids will benefit from monetarily. I benefit from them only because I am a tree hugger.
We have 10 acres in the CREP program. This is our 10th year involved with it. We planted about 1000 different species of trees and tubed them all. If you need any insight on tubing trees, don't hesitate to ask.

Bob


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## Pat53 (Dec 14, 2013)

aussiedog3 said:


> Pat, sounds like you have a great plan and a passion for this project.  GO FOR IT
> 
> I've thought about the same thing in the past, I should not have waited, I could have been seven years in to it already.
> 
> Get started now.  Good luck.



Thanks, well like they say, "the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago, the second best time is now" !  I think I'm going to start on it tomorrow. We only have a few inches of snow on the ground so it will be easy working for now. Time to get the chainsaw, measuring stick and pickeroon out I guess !  LOL


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## Pat53 (Dec 14, 2013)

McKraut said:


> Hi Pat,
> 
> We are lucky to have quite a few native black walnut trees on our place. We started planting black walnuts about 25 years ago. We bought 100 trees from Musser Forests to get started. About 5 years ago they started producing nuts. I gather the nuts from the planted and the native trees. I bury the nuts and let them sprout and harden off over winter. Then we transplant the trees in the spring. Every other year we transplant 2 to 3 hundred trees. The deer are very hard on them. We don't tube the trees because of the expense, and have had a lot of problems with deer damage. The trees are now 30+ plus feet tall (except for the severely deer-damaged trees) and they are beautiful. I look at them and think that I will be dead before they are worth anything. It will be something that the kids and grandkids will benefit from monetarily. I benefit from them only because I am a tree hugger.
> We have 10 acres in the CREP program. This is our 10th year involved with it. We planted about 1000 different species of trees and tubed them all. If you need any insight on tubing trees, don't hesitate to ask.
> ...



Thanks Bob, sounds like you've got some nice trees going, good for you. Is that right? 1000 different 'species" of trees?

I am probably going to go with actual fencing around each tree, like hardware cloth. I have read that using grow tubes helps the trees grow faster at first, but they also grow with wispy stems and will fall over after the tubes are removed. I used them on my grape vines and they grew fast but the stems were very thin compared to the vines that weren't in the tubes. I might use tubes to cover just the first 12" or so to protect them from mice and keep them from getting hit with any herbicide I use, What have you used for your trees and have they done OK with the tubes?

thx, Pat


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 15, 2013)

$4,500 sounds like little much. Have you considered fruit trees? At least you may live to see the fruit of your labor.
We have quite a few walnut trees on our place and some of them are very straight good sized trees that my Dad trimmed over  40 years ago and the trees then were I'd guess 10-20 years maybe older. They just keep getting bigger. Never sold any but I would if I had the opportunity.
If you are doing it as a hobby and enjoy doing it I say good for you go ahead.
If your doing it as an investment I give you a big thumbs down. Buying gold or silver would be a better investment.


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## Pat53 (Dec 15, 2013)

BIGDADDY said:


> $4,500 sounds like little much. Have you considered fruit trees? At least you may live to see the fruit of your labor.
> We have quite a few walnut trees on our place and some of them are very straight good sized trees that my Dad trimmed over  40 years ago and the trees then were I'd guess 10-20 years maybe older. They just keep getting bigger. Never sold any but I would if I had the opportunity.
> If you are doing it as a hobby and enjoy doing it I say good for you go ahead.
> If your doing it as an investment I give you a big thumbs down. Buying gold or silver would be a better investment.



Well, I guess this would probably be classified as both a hobby and future investment, although it's true I'll probably never see any financial benefit from it. More likely it would be something for the kids to hopefully benefit from.

Fruit trees as far as I'm concerned are a PIA. they also have to be fenced for at least 5-10 years. They have to be sprayed several times a year and then the birds, deer and bear love to ravage the trees in the fall. I have about a dozen apple trees in my yard that provide me with lots of wonderful fruit, but they also take a lot of attention if you want to get good apples.

I actually think now I could get closer to $7000 for the wood on the 6 acres by cutting and skidding it myself, and that's after hauling charges too. So even a $5K initial investment without any cost-share money should still leave me a few grand to play with. I'm anxious to see what the guy from the soil conservation district will say on Tuesday.

If you want to sell some of your walnut trees it shouldn't be that hard to find buyers for them. You might try the walnut council, I think they have some links to help people find buyers for their trees and also lots of other info about walnut trees and growing.

Pat


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## brian89gp (Dec 15, 2013)

In these parts the nuts bring more money the the tree's do.  Can make decent money from hedge for fence posts though.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 15, 2013)

Pat53 said:


> Well, I guess this would probably be classified as both a hobby and future investment, although it's true I'll probably never see any financial benefit from it. More likely it would be something for the kids to hopefully benefit from.
> 
> Fruit trees as far as I'm concerned are a PIA. they also have to be fenced for at least 5-10 years. They have to be sprayed several times a year and then the birds, deer and bear love to ravage the trees in the fall. I have about a dozen apple trees in my yard that provide me with lots of wonderful fruit, but they also take a lot of attention if you want to get good apples.
> 
> ...


I'd be interested in some links for walnut buyers. Post em


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## Pat53 (Dec 15, 2013)

BIGDADDY said:


> I'd be interested in some links for walnut buyers. Post em



The first thing I would do is see if a registered forester can look at the trees. he should be able to tell you if they are good or not. Might be a small fee involved, but he should be able to give you a ballpark figure as far as volume and quality is concerned.

After that you can contact the walnut council and see if they have a state chapter that would probably have contacts, or just simply put an add in your local paper and take sealed bids from loggers who might be interested. Always get a contract before letting anyone start cutting. If they're good trees someone will be interested in them.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 15, 2013)

There is no walnut council in Pennsylvania.


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## McKraut (Dec 15, 2013)

Pat53 said:


> Is that right? 1000 different 'species" of trees?



I guess I should have said "a 1000 trees of various species".

Tubes are a pain in the ...but I didn't see wire as a much better alternative. The post holding up the tubes often break, rot, get knocked over, etc and I've replaced at least 300 of them over the last decade. The tubes make great nests for field mice, voles, and wasps. Even if you bury the tubes below grade, they have always raised above ground level in the winter because of frost heaves and the little critters still get in there. The tubes make it much easier to combat weeds with a quick shot of herbicide. I have found the green tubes to be more productive then the tan tubes. I'm not sure if wire would be easier. One thing I would do would be to use 1/4" fiberglass rods instead of 1x1 wood posts.




BIGDADDY said:


> If your doing it as an investment I give you a big thumbs down



 As Big Daddy said above, I don't think it's really worth it if you're doing it JUST as an investment. You are going to be spending a hell of a lot of time out with the trees. If you don't enjoy taking care of them, you will never get the return on your investment that you're looking for.
 I think you're correct about fruit trees. If it's not a passion, it's not an option. We planted an fruit orchard the first year we moved out here. We put up fencing to keep the deer out, but it was only 5 feet tall. They jumped over it easily.  After years of pruning, spraying, frost damage, freeze damage, cedar rust and everything else, I got sick of it. I bulldozed all but 4 of my favorite apple trees. I don't miss the work at all.


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## Pat53 (Dec 15, 2013)

McKraut said:


> I guess I should have said "a 1000 trees of various species".
> 
> Tubes are a pain in the ...but I didn't see wire as a much better alternative. The post holding up the tubes often break, rot, get knocked over, etc and I've replaced at least 300 of them over the last decade. The tubes make great nests for field mice, voles, and wasps. Even if you bury the tubes below grade, they have always raised above ground level in the winter because of frost heaves and the little critters still get in there. The tubes make it much easier to combat weeds with a quick shot of herbicide. I have found the green tubes to be more productive then the tan tubes. I'm not sure if wire would be easier. One thing I would do would be to use 1/4" fiberglass rods instead of 1x1 wood posts.
> 
> ...




I really don't think I'll go with grow tubes. I just don't like the fact that the trees grow up with wimpy stems. The tubes only last about 3-4 years before they start degrading and falling apart anyway. The hardware cloth will last 10+ years easily. It will be a lot of work cutting the wire and fencing them, but it will have to be done. I'll have to put some protection around the bottom foot or so of trunk for winter to prevent mice from girdling them and to keep herbicide spray off them also.

I really don't think they will require a lot of regular maintenance. Keeping the competing vegetation killed for the first 3 years or so will be the biggest thing. The trees don't require much pruning at all from what I've read, and just an annual shot of fertilizer, maybe twice a season for the first few years. They don't generally require any pesticide spraying either. There will be some trees that will require some corrective pruning and training each year, but shouldn't be a big problem for the most part. I actually think it will be quite enjoyable to spend time maintaining them and watching their progress from year to year, its kind of something I've always been interested in. I'm hoping the soil conservation district guy doesn't give me a big "thumbs down" on this project. He seemed excited to see my site when I talked with him last week on the phone.

Pat


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## Pat53 (Dec 15, 2013)

BIGDADDY said:


> There is no walnut council in Pennsylvania.



IMO, the first thing you need to do if your serious about selling them is to have them estimated for volume and quality.


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## McKraut (Dec 16, 2013)

Pat53 said:


> I actually think it will be quite enjoyable to spend time maintaining them and watching their progress from year to year, its kind of something I've always been interested in.


 
 That is what is most important. Good luck with your project!

Bob


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## Hilljack with chainsaw (Dec 17, 2013)

Pat53 said:


> Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?
> 
> Pat




I considered it 13 years ago and opted not to pursue it as 1) I was already late to the party-SW of Purdue Campus (and I'm sure lots of other places) already had many thousands if not millions planted and 2) I read the hybrids were not that superior to the native species to warrant their cost.  I planted a small number of red oak and black cherry instead (35% mortality after 13 years due to deer/poor soil), gambling that the walnut market would be saturated by the time my trees got there. Like you, I really don't care if there is a return. I did it for future generations and the land was idle.  I can tell you that a few hundred 15 year old trees generate alot of prunings.  Do it if you like trees but don't promise your descendents an early retirement. To see a tree you planted 20 years ago reach 50' is rewarding in itself.   Concerning current walnut prices :for a few walnut logs last spring I was only offered 250@ and these were nice straight limb free 20' logs 18 to 24 " in diameter.


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## Pat53 (Dec 17, 2013)

Hilljack with chainsaw said:


> I considered it 13 years ago and opted not to pursue it as 1) I was already late to the party-SW of Purdue Campus (and I'm sure lots of other places) already had many thousands if not millions planted and 2) I read the hybrids were not that superior to the native species to warrant their cost.  I planted a small number of red oak and black cherry instead (35% mortality after 13 years due to deer/poor soil), gambling that the walnut market would be saturated by the time my trees got there. Like you, I really don't care if there is a return. I did it for future generations and the land was idle.  I can tell you that a few hundred 15 year old trees generate alot of prunings.  Do it if you like trees but don't promise your descendents an early retirement. To see a tree you planted 20 years ago reach 50' is rewarding in itself.   Concerning current walnut prices :for a few walnut logs last spring I was only offered 250@ and these were nice straight limb free 20' logs 18 to 24 " in diameter.



I am definitely not doing it for a return for myself, more of a hobby I guess. Although if I were to sell the property if my kids didn't want it, I would hope that the walnut/black cherry/red oak trees would be worth more than what the native timber would produce. From what I've read, most of the pruning is done in the first 10-15 years. The goal is to get one good straight leader that is free of branches for the first 18-20' . The trees really only need pruning once a year, many will not need any pruning for several years. I think the pruning will be enjoyable anyway.

These trees are NOT hybrids, they are seedlings of genetically superior native trees that have been grown for several generations. Only the best trees of each generation are selected for seed source based on their growth rates and straightness. Same thing with the black cherry and red oak, just genetically superior trees that provide the seed stock for the seedlings. Obviously not all these trees will produce what your looking for, you thin out the weak and undesirable trees over the years and eventually you "hope" to get 40-50 trees/acre that will produce veneer or high quality lumber. A crap shoot? You bet, but I'll probably give it a shot anyway.

I have no idea what walnut log prices currently are now, and I fully expect them to go lower in the immediate years ahead. That's not anything to even consider right now. Hopefully, for all of us, and especially the younger people, the economy 20-30 years from now will be in good shape and hardwood lumber will be in demand. And I still think there is a real possibility that the "thousand canker disease" that is spreading across the country killing walnut trees "could" end up devastating walnut plantations in the east / central US.

Pat


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## Pat53 (Mar 7, 2014)

Well, I just finished decking up the last of my softwood, pretty much all red and white pine, mostly red pine. One stack is all red pine logs that will be going to Potlatch for lumber and the other one is just mixed red and white pine that will be going to Newpage for pulp. Total of about 42 full cords by my measuring.

Cutting in the woods was a b#tch this winter. Cutting the old fashion way with a chainsaw, measuring stick and a pickeroon is tough work when there is no snow, but this year was nasty, cold too ! The last month has been especially tough with snow almost up to my @ss. It was even tough for the forwarder I borrowed to go through it,

Once the snow has gone I'm starting on the aspen. Should only be about 20-25 cords of that, the rest will be hardwood, probably 35-40 cords mixed oak and soft maple and a little black cherry. which I'll be keeping most of for firewood. Hope to have the whole thing cut by late next fall. I've changed plans a bit and now I'm thinking of putting in about 2-3 acres of apple trees, some hybrid chestnut trees and some Persian walnuts, and will probably interplant some X-mas trees between the rows. I'll probably end up fencing the whole 6 acres rather than fencing trees individually. I can borrow a skid-steer with a post hole digger attatchment and shouldn't be too bad after that.  Quite a project I guess ... LOL

Pat


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## mike van (Mar 8, 2014)

Just my .02 Pat, if you want to plant something that gives a return in 25 years, I'd do sugar maples.  Demand for real syrup is on the rise, as more and more discover just how bad MSG and high fructose really is.  Better living through chemistry is just not that believable any more.  My 25 years of sawmilling have given me a little insight on walnuts, the first being that they're firewood unless someone wants the lumber.  Smaller trees, like 50 years and younger have so much sapwood, such light heartwood, I don't believe you'll ever find someone to pay good money for them.  The larger 100+ year old ones, they have heartwood so dark it's almost purple.  25  years ago I planted just 5, bareroot.  One died, the biggest now is about 14" dbh.  the smallest about 9".  All have nuts now, but unless you want to sit out there and shoot all the squirrels, you'll never get any.  Grass brush and weeds do grow under them, not like they're self  trimming.


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## JASFARMER (Mar 9, 2014)

Pat53 said:


> Gents, do any of you guys have any experience with growing black walnut as investment trees?
> 
> It's winter, so that generally means I'm bored out of my mind ! I'm just itchin' to fire up the Husky and start dropping timber....LOL.  I've got about 6 acres across the road from my house that is mainly second growth aspen, soft maple and white birch, with some red oak, black cherry and red/white pine mixed in. I've been reading a lot about people who plant timber species, especially black walnut, as future investment trees. Now I'll never see a stick of wood from these trees, but my kids/grandkids should some day.
> 
> ...


I did not plant black walnut trees, but I do have thousands of them on my farm.  Just had some cut last spring/summer. The logger was nice enough to tell me to wait about ten years to harvest the rest because the would be bigger, veneer quality.  Said I would get about 4 times the money of what he would have paid me then. ( couldn't get that much if I put the money on the bank for ten years). There is a lot of money in walnut trees, but they take A LONG time to grow .  He told me that with the size of the trees I had ( the smaller ones were roughly 20 inch dbh) that they would grow on average 1/4 inch per year. 
In my opinion if you had the land and time it would make a great investment for your future generations just as long as you know it will probably be over 50 years


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