# Newbie building a new house and needs fireplace guidance.  Help?



## lithnights (Dec 29, 2012)

I just found this site (love it!) but I am a total newbie to fireplaces/stoves. I'm hoping I can get some good answers for my question which is.. *WHAT WOODBURNING FIREPLACE SHOULD I GET for my new home?*

Here are the details that I think are important to my situation.

We are building a home next month via a semi-custom builder. The current home design comes with a propane fireplace in the family room (20x15). But I also want to add a wood burning fireplace in the living room (13x18) which is on the other side of the home. See .jpg floorplan which I hope you can view.

The home is around 3100 sq ft., around 1500 on each floor. Center hall colonial with 2 story foyer. It will have forced hot air and the heating system in the specs is a propane furnace but with the price of propane here (Philadelphia PA area), I am leaning towards an electric heat pump with either propane or electric backup. Gas line is 700 feet away and thus not available.

Regardless of main heating source, *I want to install a wood burning fireplace (we like the look of a fireplace, not a wood stove) to supplement heat when it gets a bit colder (under 40 degrees or so?)*. And I'm an outdoorsy and fire person so I like the idea of making and tending a real fire, not flipping a switch. The propane fireplace would be more for simplicity and low maintenance (for the wife), and it would likely pain me to run that all day, knowing how much the propane (3x the cost of my current gas) is costing me.

*1. I know this may be a broad question but what wood fireplace should I look to?* I've been to 2 fireplace stores and they both suggested a Travis Industries Xtrordinair Elite model, either 36 or 44. Would one of these make sense for my situation, which is that I don't need it to heat my entire home, but would like it to be supplemental heating, and ambiance. Although if it COULD be used to heat the whole house, that'd be fine since it'd be cheaper than propane and electric. I'm just worried the fireplace heat alone (forced hot air not running) won't make it upstairs to the far bedrooms.. e.g. we'd have a family room at 74 degrees and a bedroom at 65 degrees. I believe the 36 heats up to 2500 sq ft, and the 44 does up to 3000 sq. ft

*2. For my needs, should the woodburning fireplace be in the family room or the living room?* I'm sure most would say it's personal preference but I'm thinking from a heating efficiency perspective. We would spend most of our time in the family room and kitchen, and little time in the living room. So if I wanted to burn the wood all day in the LR on a cold day, would the heat reach us in the FR/kitchen, or would that heat just stay in that side of the house, and eventually find it's way upstairs via the 2 story foyer that is right outside the LR? Again, see floorplan attachment. Similarly, I'm wondering if the wood fireplace was in the FR and we ran it all the time, would the FR and kitchen get TOO hot? I just have no idea of how the heat would travel and circulate.

Sorry for all the verbiage but I figured more info was better than not enough.

Thanks so much in advance!


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## Pallet Pete (Dec 29, 2012)

Shoot Scotty Overkill a PM he had an efficient fireplace installed I believe it is supposed to crank the heat like a stove but be a fireplace.

Pete


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## ScotO (Dec 29, 2012)

Depends on which room you plan on spending the most time in......and the layout of your house will have to be factored in as far as figuring the heat convection.  We installed a Napoleon NZ3000 in our living room remodel....

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/building-the-hearth-for-my-napoleon-nz3000-what-a-quest.74273/

There are quite a few good EPA ZC fireplaces, BUT....we also have a stove that is our primary heat source.  The fireplace could and would be very capable of heating our entire house, but we wanted it more for the cozy effect (and for heat on that end of our "L" shaped house).  Have you considered installing a freestanding stove in a nook that looks like a fireplace?  I can tell ya, that ZC fireplace I put in my living room is NOT cheap.  I could have bought TWO high efficiency woodstoves for the price of that fireplace..

Whatever you decide to do, I'm here (as are many other members with modern, high-efficiency ZC fireplaces) to help you along.......


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## begreen (Dec 29, 2012)

In a new house your best investment will be careful attention to sealing and good insulation of the house envelope. That will pay off year round. Get a contractor that knows what he's doing for energy saving.

I would put the heat where you are going to spend the most time. In this case that sounds like the family room. I like the FPX units, but don't think that is the right choice for this layout. Instead I would go for a ductable fireplace so that the heat throughout the house is more even. Maybe duct the heat from the fireplace to the 2nd floor or to the living room?

Take a look at the BIS Tradition, Kozy Z42, and the RSF Opel for ductable systems.


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## schlot (Dec 29, 2012)

Family room, based on the idea it will be used more and can be seen from the kitchen/breakfast room too.

Heat pump is great idea, but if you decide to go with forced air, the cost of installing a gas service would be worth in in the long run.


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## FanMan (Dec 29, 2012)

If you plan to use the fireplace a lot, put it where you'll be, i.e. the family room.  If you want, put the gas fireplace in the living room.  Consider the logistics of carrying wood to the fireplace, though, and where you'll store it.

My situation is a bit different; propane is cheaper than oil here so I'm using a gas fireplace as the primary heat source for the entire house, replacing the existing oil furnace (we'll see how this winter goes before i actually remove the furnace, but so far so good).  Living in PA you might want to consider coal which I hear is cheap there.


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## lithnights (Dec 29, 2012)

Scotty Overkill said:


> Depends on which room you plan on spending the most time in......and the layout of your house will have to be factored in as far as figuring the heat convection. We installed a Napoleon NZ3000 in our living room remodel....
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/building-the-hearth-for-my-napoleon-nz3000-what-a-quest.74273/
> 
> ...


 
That's quite a remodel!  Regarding a freestanding stove in a nook, we just don't prefer the look of those compared to a fireplace and hearth look.  But if there's something out there that can give us the fireplace look but is a wood stove, I'm all ears. Regarding the price of the xtrordinair fireplace, I think the quotes were around 4K or so.  Not cheap.  

So based on my floorplan (note the FR and LR locations, what would you do?


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## lithnights (Dec 29, 2012)

begreen said:


> In a new house your best investment will be careful attention to sealing and good insulation of the house envelope. That will pay off year round. Get a contractor that knows what he's doing for energy saving.
> 
> I would put the heat where you are going to spend the most time. In this case that sounds like the family room. I like the FPX units, but don't think that is the right choice for this layout. Instead I would go for a ductable fireplace so that the heat throughout the house is more even. Maybe duct the heat from the fireplace to the 2nd floor or to the living room?
> 
> Take a look at the BIS Tradition, Kozy Z42, and the RSF Opel for ductable systems.


 
I agree with the insulation.  I have stressed this to the builder, and am actually working with an energy consultant to determine the best use of money for windows, insulation etc.  

When you say the FPX units aren't the best choice, why is that?

I hadn't heard of a ductable fireplace but I'll look into it.  I'm not sure about the ducting options, like to the FR or 2nd floor..would a typical HVAC guy know the best way to do that?


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## lithnights (Dec 29, 2012)

schlot said:


> Family room, based on the idea it will be used more and can be seen from the kitchen/breakfast room too.
> 
> Heat pump is great idea, but if you decide to go with forced air, the cost of installing a gas service would be worth in in the long run.


 
I ran the numbers on installing gas service.  Believe me, I wanted to get gas in the worst way (have it now).  After multiple calls, the utility company flat out said it was $100 a foot to get it installed.  And we're talking 700 feet away from the gas line.  I even asked if they would negotiate if I could get other neighbors (all use oil or wood) to sign up for gas service.  They wouldn't budge.  It's just too much to get gas.  That's why I'm trying so hard to utilize wood burning.


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## lithnights (Dec 29, 2012)

FanMan said:


> If you plan to use the fireplace a lot, put it where you'll be, i.e. the family room. If you want, put the gas fireplace in the living room. Consider the logistics of carrying wood to the fireplace, though, and where you'll store it.
> 
> My situation is a bit different; propane is cheaper than oil here so I'm using a gas fireplace as the primary heat source for the entire house, replacing the existing oil furnace (we'll see how this winter goes before i actually remove the furnace, but so far so good). Living in PA you might want to consider coal which I hear is cheap there.


 
Yes, the logistics are something I thought of.  If you see on the floorplan, the garage is very close to the family room, and I could store some wood there which would make easier transportation to the fireplace if in the FR.  Or if bringing directly from the outside, I'd come through the breakfast room back door and turn right to the family room.  Much easier than walking across the entire house to the living room.

How much is propane there?   I didn't think of coal as an option..I've never heard of people using coal to heat a home.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 29, 2012)

Have you considered a wood/oil furnace?
I know oil isn't cheap but hopefully you wouldnt use much oil and if you are interested in heating your entire house cheaply and you are thinking of installing a heat pump with propane hot air , Why not put your money in a wood furnace and place a smaller wood burning unit in your living you if wanted.
I think wood furnaces can be easily lit using an igniter built in the furnace and when you don't feel like loading it with wood it will switch over to oil. 
You won't have to worry about how to get the heat moved around the house and you can control it with thermostats and you can put in as many zones as you want. Maybe one upstairs and one down or have each bedroom or each room on a different thermostat. 
Some people on here have rooms that are 90 degrees and on down as you get further away from the wood burning device.
Many people have trouble moving heat from their stoves.
I'm just saying if you're putting in the ductwork you might as well get the most use out of them.
You could always put a small wood burning unit in your living room anytime.

Edit I guess they do make gas wood furnaces if you prefer gas.


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2012)

lithnights said:


> I agree with the insulation. I have stressed this to the builder, and am actually working with an energy consultant to determine the best use of money for windows, insulation etc.
> 
> When you say the FPX units aren't the best choice, why is that?
> 
> I hadn't heard of a ductable fireplace but I'll look into it. I'm not sure about the ducting options, like to the FR or 2nd floor..would a typical HVAC guy know the best way to do that?


 
I don't believe the FPX is ductable. Look up the models suggested. The contractor or hvac guy can hook up the ducting. It will allow you to duct heat from the stove and blow it into the opposite end of the house. That can make a nice difference in evening out the heat.


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## schlot (Dec 30, 2012)

lithnights said:


> I ran the numbers on installing gas service. Believe me, I wanted to get gas in the worst way (have it now). After multiple calls, the utility company flat out said it was $100 a foot to get it installed. And we're talking 700 feet away from the gas line. I even asked if they would negotiate if I could get other neighbors (all use oil or wood) to sign up for gas service. They wouldn't budge. It's just too much to get gas. That's why I'm trying so hard to utilize wood burning.


 
Wow, that's incredibly expensive. I guess they aren't in the business of selling gas...just keeping it!


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## FanMan (Dec 30, 2012)

lithnights said:


> How much is propane there? I didn't think of coal as an option..I've never heard of people using coal to heat a home.


 
Ii paid $2.48/gallon at my last propane fill, which is significantly less than oil even allowing for the BTU/gal difference. I've heard people in different areas reporting prices ranging from half to double that.

A fair number of people burn coal. Lots of discussion about it on nepacrossroads.com. There are a whole range of coal options, from small hand fired stoves like the antique one in my cabin bedroom, to automatic hopper fed stoves similar to a pellet stove, to big coal furnaces.


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> Have you considered a wood/oil furnace?
> I know oil isn't cheap but hopefully you wouldnt use much oil and if you are interested in heating your entire house cheaply and you are thinking of installing a heat pump with propane hot air , Why not put your money in a wood furnace and place a smaller wood burning unit in your living you if wanted.
> I think wood furnaces can be easily lit using an igniter built in the furnace and when you don't feel like loading it with wood it will switch over to oil.
> You won't have to worry about how to get the heat moved around the house and you can control it with thermostats and you can put in as many zones as you want. Maybe one upstairs and one down or have each bedroom or each room on a different thermostat.
> ...


 
Oil was not even a thought.  Around here, all you hear is how people hate their oil systems, and their oil bills.
A wood furnace (or even better, a pellet stove of some sort..since less manual feeding), was an idea but quite simply I guess I thought the maintenance would be too great if it was the main heat source.  What if I'm gone for days, or for some reason, the furnace can't get tended to?  Concerning.

The 90 degree room example is exactly what I DON'T want.  So I guess a ductable fireplace of some sort is a better and better idea.  

I agree, if I have all that ductwork, get the best use out of it.  Lots to think about..


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

schlot said:


> Wow, that's incredibly expensive. I guess they aren't in the business of selling gas...just keeping it!


 
Yea, I was a bit ticked off.  I actually had put together an analysis for them, showing that if 10 homes used X amount of gas per month, it would be Y amount of revenue for the gas company per year.  And that they would break even in Z amount of years, but it was like talking to a wall.  They wouldn't even discuss ANYTHING less than $100 a foot, so it's like they just didn't care about new business.  Reallllllly aggravating.


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

FanMan said:


> Ii paid $2.48/gallon at my last propane fill, which is significantly less than oil even allowing for the BTU/gal difference. I've heard people in different areas reporting prices ranging from half to double that.
> 
> A fair number of people burn coal. Lots of discussion about it on nepacrossroads.com. There are a whole range of coal options, from small hand fired stoves like the antique one in my cabin bedroom, to automatic hopper fed stoves similar to a pellet stove, to big coal furnaces.


 
My neighbor has a small propane tank outside his home that he uses for a gas fireplace.  He said he paid $2.84 last fillup.  Yea, I just don't get the huge fluctuations in what people pay for propane.  That's why I dread leaving my gas house for a non-gas home.   

I'll take a look into the coal option.  First thoughts are how messy it may be, and how much work it would be, and would the savings be worth it.  But I admit I have no clue.


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2012)

lithnights said:


> Oil was not even a thought. Around here, all you hear is how people hate their oil systems, and their oil bills.
> A wood furnace (or even better, a pellet stove of some sort..since less manual feeding), was an idea but quite simply I guess I thought the maintenance would be too great if it was the main heat source. What if I'm gone for days, or for some reason, the furnace can't get tended to? Concerning.
> 
> The 90 degree room example is exactly what I DON'T want. So I guess a ductable fireplace of some sort is a better and better idea.
> ...


 
The ducting for the fireplace will be independent of the house furnace ducting. It is purpose specific.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 30, 2012)

lithnights said:


> Oil was not even a thought.  Around here, all you hear is how people hate their oil systems, and their oil bills.
> A wood furnace (or even better, a pellet stove of some sort..since less manual feeding), was an idea but quite simply I guess I thought the maintenance would be too great if it was the main heat source.  What if I'm gone for days, or for some reason, the furnace can't get tended to?  Concerning.
> 
> The 90 degree room example is exactly what I DON'T want.  So I guess a ductable fireplace of some sort is a better and better idea.
> ...




If you get a propane wood combination furnace you don't have to worry about tending the furnace as it will automatically switch from wood to propane when the wood fire goes out. 
Should be no more maintenance then any other furnace.


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

OK, got it.  Makes sense.  I'd hope the HVAC guys would be familiar with such a setup (combining furnace with fireplace/stove) and balancing it correctly.  Do we think they would be well versed in that, or is it ideal to have a fireplace installer work side by side with the HVAC guy?  Just don't want to mess something like this up, since once it's done, it'd be very messy/costly to fix/correct down the line.

Learning much here.  Thanks everyone!


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2012)

The fireplace operation is independent and shouldn't affect the hvac. The installer may want to have the hvac installer do the fp duct run out of convenience, but should be qualified to do the job. You'll want to keep the fireplace duct run as short and direct as possible. Make sure it is insulated.

One nice feature with some of these units is that the blower can be mounted in the basement. That makes for quieter running. In new construction you'll want to feed the fireplace with its own outside air supply. That will help it to burn well even if the hvac or exhaust fans are running in the house.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 30, 2012)

lithnights said:


> OK, got it.  Makes sense.  I'd hope the HVAC guys would be familiar with such a setup (combining furnace with fireplace/stove) and balancing it correctly.  Do we think they would be well versed in that, or is it ideal to have a fireplace installer work side by side with the HVAC guy?  Just don't want to mess something like this up, since once it's done, it'd be very messy/costly to fix/correct down the line.
> 
> Learning much here.  Thanks everyone!




In regards to a wood propane combo furnace anyone that installs furnaces can install it. I don't think you would want a wood stove installer involved except to maybe make recommendation on chimney sizing and so forth.

In regards to a duct able fireplace which Begreen stated is separate from the houses  furnace ductwork perhaps Begreen will answer that.


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> If you get a propane wood combination furnace you don't have to worry about tending the furnace as it will automatically switch from wood to propane when the wood fire goes out.
> Should be no more maintenance then any other furnace.


 
Ahh.. this propane wood combination furnace is very intriguing.  So how often would one have to load in wood for something like this?

When I say maintenance, I really mean the effort needed to keep it full of wood, as opposed to a hands off approach of a propane furnace or heat pump etc.  Thus my question above.

Is this a good forum to get more info about propane wood combination furnace?  If not, any suggestions on where to get more info?


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## firebug (Dec 30, 2012)

only one bathroom


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

begreen said:


> The fireplace operation is independent and shouldn't affect the hvac. The installer may want to have the hvac installer do the fp duct run out of convenience, but should be qualified to do the job. You'll want to keep the fireplace duct run as short and direct as possible. Make sure it is insulated.
> 
> One nice feature with some of these units is that the blower can be mounted in the basement. That makes for quieter running. In new construction you'll want to feed the fireplace with its own outside air supply. That will help it to burn well even if the hvac or exhaust fans are running in the house.


 
Regarding the short duct run comment, my fear is the distance  from the FR to LR would be over 60 feet.  That doesn't seem ideal at all.  Darn big house.  :  )


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> In regards to a wood propane combo furnace anyone that installs furnaces can install it. I don't think you would want a wood stove installer involved except to maybe make recommendation on chimney sizing and so forth.
> 
> In regards to a duct able fireplace which Begreen stated is separate from the houses furnace ductwork perhaps Begreen will answer that.


 
I guess I meant more to have the fireplace guy there side by side, to make sure the HVAC guy knows how much heat is going through the fireplace ducts, just in case HVAC guy needs to moderate/adjust furnace ductwork (e.g. using dampers), knowing that the fireplace will kick out a lot of heat.  BUT if we're saying they would run independently (different ductwork), then I guess that's not as much a concern.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 30, 2012)

lithnights said:


> Regarding the short duct run comment, my fear is the distance  from the FR to LR would be over 60 feet.  That doesn't seem ideal at all.  Darn big house.  :  )




Dam big house is exactly why you should seriously look into wood / propane combo furnace. You can heat your entire house to exactly the temperature you want. 
You can always burn wood in your fireplace if you like watching wood burn but in a new house I can't think of a cheaper way to heat your entire house then a wood furnace and there is no extra ductwork then from any other furnace.


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## lithnights (Dec 30, 2012)

BIGDADDY said:


> Dam big house is exactly why you should seriously look into wood / propane combo furnace. You can heat your entire house to exactly the temperature you want.
> You can always burn wood in your fireplace if you like watching wood burn but in a new house I can't think of a cheaper way to heat your entire house then a wood furnace and there is no extra ductwork then from any other furnace.


 
Now we're talking. I am starting to really like this idea. BUT my question is, what is the manual work needed for something like this? Basically, how much wood can I load in such a thing at once, and how often would I be reloading it on a typical cold day (e.g. 30 degrees)? We talking once a day, 3 times a day, 10 times a day? I don't mind some work, but want to have an idea for how many trips through the house, down the basement, and 30 feet across the basement to get to the furnace. I know it's tough to say but based on my 3100 sq ft and the wife wanting it a toasty 70-72 degrees, any estimates?

And what about ash cleanup?  Just wondering how much and how often?

Also, do you have any links on where I can look into this more? I googled.. wood propane combination furnace, but didn't find too much helpful.


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## begreen (Dec 30, 2012)

I noticed that. This will depend on the fireplace and the blower used. Some can handle a 50ft run, just be sure it is sized correctly and well insulated. The run could exit in the foyer and study though which would help get heat upstairs.


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 30, 2012)

Sorry here is the link

http://www.charmaster.com/wood_gas.html


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## BIGDADDY (Dec 30, 2012)

Some more links

http://www.yukon-eagle.com/

http://store.yukon-eagle.com/yukon-husky-gas-wood-coal-furnace/

Try searching with yahoo.


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## Jasper 83 (Dec 30, 2012)

Those are pretty neat units. Thats what I would go with in a house that size. The yukon ones that burn coal also would be a plus for your location.


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## lithnights (Jan 3, 2013)

OK, first off, thanks to everyone's input.  After a couple days or thinking, research, talking to the wife, and a trip to a fireplace store, I think I've made some decisions.

1.  The wood fireplace/stove will likely be in the family room.  Like most said, why not enjoy the look of it where we are most often, and why not enjoy the heat where we are most often.  Also, storage of the wood could be in the garage storage area, which is only a few steps from the family room.  The gas fireplace, if we do it (didn't realize how expensive a wood fireplace would be!) would be in living room.

2.  I'm shying away from the wood furnace.   As much as I like the idea of relying on that to heat my home, the location in the large basement is a deterrent since it would involve so much manual effort..walking across the house, down the steps, then across the entire basement again.  Doable, yes.. ideal, no.  Also, I wouldn't be able to enjoy seeing the fire, like I would with a fireplace/stove in our main family room.  Also I'm hearing that there are fireplaces out there that can *almost* heat the entire home.

3.  The guy at the store was high on RSF units.  I think we discussed the Opel and Onyx.  Are people familiar with these?   He seemed to think that if we used one of these units, it would do a good job of heating up the 1st floor, and we could duct the fireplace down into the basement and hook into our heating system.  I was thinking if we have a 2 zone system, the fireplace ductwork could hook into the ductwork for the upstairs zone.  Thus the fireplace would likely run non-stop during the winter, heating up the family room and kitchen/breakfast room area very comfortably, and maybe the heat would die down as we get to the other side of the 1st floor (DR and LR).  But since we're not over there often, that may be acceptable.  Then the heat would also get sent fed upstairs (into the upstairs zone ductwork) so as to heat up the 2nd floor.  Does that plan sound feasible?  I realize this fireplace alone may not heat up the home enough but it sure would reduce the need for a propane furnace (or heat pump) to run.

4.  The pricing of such a wood fireplace seems very high.  He stated it could run from $7-10K with material, install, chimney, ducting, etc.  To compare, a wood stove install is much less expensive, right?  We REALLY like the look of the fireplace over a free-standing stove, and we plan to be here for 20+ years, so money may not rule this decision.

Thanks in advance!


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## lithnights (Jan 12, 2013)

Just bumping this up to see if there was any other feedback to my recent questions.
Thanks in advance!



lithnights said:


> OK, first off, thanks to everyone's input. After a couple days or thinking, research, talking to the wife, and a trip to a fireplace store, I think I've made some decisions.
> 
> 1. The wood fireplace/stove will likely be in the family room. Like most said, why not enjoy the look of it where we are most often, and why not enjoy the heat where we are most often. Also, storage of the wood could be in the garage storage area, which is only a few steps from the family room. The gas fireplace, if we do it (didn't realize how expensive a wood fireplace would be!) would be in living room.
> 
> ...


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## Beerdog (Jan 19, 2013)

lithnights said:


> Just bumping this up to see if there was any other feedback to my recent questions.
> Thanks in advance!


lithnights...

We're looking at the Opel 3 for a 2200 ft^2 T-shape ranch that will be very well insulated in upstate NY... 8000 degree day climate.  I look at the Opel as a supplemental heater for the shoulder seasons, but primarily it's being installed for the ambiance of a fireplace that generates and circulates heat.

Whether, and how well the Opel 3 heats a home will depend on the heating load and how well heat is circulated.  I don't expect it to provide a well regulated central heat, and, because our intention is decorative, I don't see it being used 24/7.  I plan to use the clean face option and a blower driven dump heat in a remote bedroom.

Wood heating requires attention and time.  For central heating, I am planning to heat with a propane boiler and I have not yet decided whether to add a wood boiler with storage which would be a significant cost and demand more commitment, or just use a wood stove in the basement for supplemental heating.  I've never heated with wood and I'm concerned that the demands on my time and energy would be too great, which is why a wood stove has appeal at this point.

As for costs, the fireplace units are expensive, and the estimates you've got are what I also expect to pay.  Keep in mind that a wood fireplace, unlike a wood stove, is integrated into the structure and so its construction will be more involved and costly than a wood  stove or insert install.


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## lithnights (Jan 19, 2013)

I assume the Opel 3 is just a different trim or something than just an Opel or Opel 2?  I don't know much about the different "versions".  
Yes I agree that wood heating is going to require some time and effort.  I have spoken to a bunch of my neighbors who use a wood stove to solely heat their homes.  They are putting wood in every 3 hours or so (due to the smaller size of the stove).  I'm not sure that is for me.  But if I can get 8 hours out of an Opel (which should not be an issue based on specs, and based on people I know who have one), I think I can manage.  My wife and I both work from home most of the week so there is always someone home.  We rarely travel or are not in the home, so I think wood burning will be a good fit.  And we'll have an electric heat pump as our main heating source so if for any reason, we can't tend to the fireplace, we'll be fine.

Yes I've learned that the fireplace is much more integrated and involved..and expensive.  I've accepted that, since we simply don't like the look of the wood stove as much as the fireplace, and it will be the main focal point of our main living area downstairs.

Thanks!




Beerdog said:


> lithnights...
> 
> We're looking at the Opel 3 for a 2200 ft^2 T-shape ranch that will be very well insulated in upstate NY... 8000 degree day climate. I look at the Opel as a supplemental heater for the shoulder seasons, but primarily it's being installed for the ambiance of a fireplace that generates and circulates heat.
> 
> ...


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## begreen (Jan 19, 2013)

lithnights said:


> OK, first off, thanks to everyone's input. After a couple days or thinking, research, talking to the wife, and a trip to a fireplace store, I think I've made some decisions.
> 
> 1. The wood fireplace/stove will likely be in the family room. Like most said, why not enjoy the look of it where we are most often, and why not enjoy the heat where we are most often. Also, storage of the wood could be in the garage storage area, which is only a few steps from the family room. The gas fireplace, if we do it (didn't realize how expensive a wood fireplace would be!) would be in living room.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds like you're on the right track and your expectations are realistic. I like your plan, though there's one thing to think about if tying it into the upstairs ductwork. You may want to have the hvac guy put in an accessible, back draft damper at the point of connection. Otherwise, when the furnace or AC is on, it will be blowing back through the fireplace. You need to plan for what happens when the fireplace blower is on and the furnace kicks on to satisfy a heat call in the living room. The central heating 635 cfm blower moves a lot of air. I am wondering if tying it into the main plenum is an option. Where will that be located? RSF makes good units and the Opel is a popular unit. Do you have a simple sketch of the duct runs that are planned for the hvac? I may be missing some options.

Yes these units are expensive. They are doing double duty as a fireplace and a stove, yet have very tight clearances. But a good large stove installed with hearth and chimney is going to run in the $6-7K range, so this is not that far off. Class A piping is expensive, but it's infrastructure. You want it done very well and safely.


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## rideau (Jan 19, 2013)

If you have not yet, go to the RSF site.  They have info, plus tools to customize the install and see what each stove will look like with various options and installs.  You'll also see the comparison of output of the different fireplaces.

Don't know how close you are to starting, but have you considered putting that fireplace in the family room on an internal wall?  It will be more central, and there are real advantages to having the stack in the house, rather than outside.  If you can work it with your second floor....

If I were building today, I would put angled windows in every south facing room to take advantage of free, and incredibly effective, solar heat.  My sister renovated a home in Ottawa, Canada 40 years ago.  Put in Pella windows at about a 60 degree angle faced south...a bank about ten feet long in the kitchen eating area.  Those windows heated the entire eating nook, kitchen, tv and family rooms, with heat spilling over to the living room.  I'd put such windows in EVERY south facing room.  It was so effective the Nationakl Research Council went and looked at the home, and wrote it up.  She had blinds  in the airspace of the windows, that could be closed at night.  Windows need to be installed at optimal angle for your latitude.  Soapstone can be used in window seats under the windiows for heat storage, although just sitting in the area is nice. 

I kniow you prefer the appearance of a fireplace, but have you looked at the Woodstock products?  They are very pretty.  They make a few LP?Propane stoves that are thermostatically controlled and use little propane, have all the heat storage qualities of any soapstone stove.  Their Fireside Franklin might be a great choice for your living room.  It is direct vent, so not expensive to install.  That in your living room and the RSF in your family room would give you a lot of heat.  Or you could go with a RSF Renaissaince Rumford Fireplace in teh LR...probably a lot more expensive than the Woodstock unit.  A nice benefit of the Woodstock Fireside Franklin is that you can set a tempfor it and run it when you are not home.  Woodstock gives details at its site as to how long it will burn on high on one tank of propane...plenty long wnough if you are away for a wekm or even two during the winter, which would be nice as a back up.

Good luck.


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## lithnights (Jan 19, 2013)

begreen said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track and your expectations are realistic. I like your plan, though there's one thing to think about if tying it into the upstairs ductwork. You may want to have the hvac guy put in an accessible, back draft damper at the point of connection. Otherwise, when the furnace or AC is on, it will be blowing back through the fireplace. You need to plan for what happens when the fireplace blower is on and the furnace kicks on to satisfy a heat call in the living room. The central heating 635 cfm blower moves a lot of air. I am wondering if tying it into the main plenum is an option. Where will that be located? RSF makes good units and the Opel is a popular unit. Do you have a simple sketch of the duct runs that are planned for the hvac? I may be missing some options.
> 
> Yes these units are expensive. They are doing double duty as a fireplace and a stove, yet have very tight clearances. But a good large stove installed with hearth and chimney is going to run in the $6-7K range, so this is not that far off. Class A piping is expensive, but it's infrastructure. You want it done very well and safely.


 

Agree about the back draft damper.

I asked the builder where the main plenum, and heating unit, would be..  i.e. which end of the house (the FR fireplace end or the opposite end of the house).  I'm assuming I could have some say in that since the fireplace is an integral part of heating the home.

I don't have any HVAC sketches yet; we just signed paperwork yesterday, so it may be a month or so before they do a manual J and get some ideas on how to run the ductwork.  When i get something, I'll be sure to post it here.

Thanks!


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## begreen (Jan 20, 2013)

Let's see where the furnace gets located. If it is under the FR or Mudroom, then maybe tap into the supply trunk just past the breakfast nook. With that back draft damper that will feed the foyer, LR and DR nicely.


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## lithnights (Mar 27, 2013)

Well I'm back as promised. We got the permit plans and the proposed location for the furnace is under the family room (left side of house). See my less than artistic drawing of it. It will be the red star location. Although the builder did say that could be flexible, but who knows. So if it is indeed there, does that help with guidance of how to utilize the Opel 3 heat? I have since spoken to RSF (in Canada) twice and both techs advised AGAINST tying it into the main plenum. They both (on separate phone calls) suggested running to the opposite end of the house (either the living room or foyer).

I have the actual permit set but it's a pdf and too large to upload here. And even that doesn't seem to have the duct runs on it.

One other thing.. I finally got a quote from the builder, after meeting with the local dealer to discuss options, and it's around $10,700..without chase top. Here is the quote.

"High Efficiency Wood Fireplace with Black Louvers, Black Door (no trim), Ash Pan, Internal Blower, Outside Air Kit and Chimney System and components with Black Chase Top Flashing. Installed - $9,379.00

Options for above fireplace:
Stainless Steel Chase Top Flashing, ADD $695.00
Heat Outlet Kit with Blower, T-Stat and Ducting to basement directly below fireplace. Ducting only Installed (Homeowner responsible for installation of future extension of ducting, blower and t-stat into other areas of house), ADD $1,325.00"

I called a local dealer (dealer 2) to see what it would cost me if they came in POST construction, and they emailed me a quote of $7,400 for pretty much the same material and labor. So I'm confused to say the least. Both will install the same unit, same venting, same louvers, same internal blower, same central blower etc. Dealer 2 did say there would be a couple extra hours of labor, and I assume some additional electric work (which builder quote includes). But $3,300 difference!? Thoughts? I'm tempted to just have the builder build the chase in the family room, then have dealer 2 come in a month later and do the fireplace install.

Thanks!!



begreen said:


> Let's see where the furnace gets located. If it is under the FR or Mudroom, then maybe tap into the supply trunk just past the breakfast nook. With that back draft damper that will feed the foyer, LR and DR nicely.


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## begreen (Mar 27, 2013)

Kind of brings us full circle. I would follow RSF's guidance if that is the fireplace of choice. Keep the system independent and it will be simpler to maintain and redundant in case of problems with the primary hvac system.


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## Oldhippie (Mar 29, 2013)

lithnights said:


> Oil was not even a thought. Around here, all you hear is how people hate their oil systems, and their oil bills.
> A wood furnace (or even better, a pellet stove of some sort..since less manual feeding), was an idea but quite simply I guess I thought the maintenance would be too great if it was the main heat source. What if I'm gone for days, or for some reason, the furnace can't get tended to? Concerning.
> 
> The 90 degree room example is exactly what I DON'T want. So I guess a ductable fireplace of some sort is a better and better idea.
> ...


 
It's a large house. You haven't said where you are, but if you are in the northern half of the US, you are going to have high heating bills. 

The wood furnace is some excellent advice, given you are in build/design phase and can make these kinds of choices pre any kind of a retrofit. Remember that bringing wood to the wood burner is messy, and a design where the heater is in a basement may not make that as much of a factor.. and maybe you can "design in" some easy access to from the outside. 

Then you could augment your relatively inexpensive wood heat with a fireplace if you are still inclined to do so.

Please forgive this one last try on selling you on a woodstove but I still can't help thinking you just haven't seen some of the absolutely gorgeous woodstove/hearth installations that might change your mind on the whole "fireplace thing". Go to the Woodstock Soapstone site and review many of the hearth/stove installations you'll see there as an example.


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## rideau (Mar 29, 2013)

To follow up on Steve's advice, you could put a Woodstock Progress Hybrid at each end of the house, with fuul ICC pipe and chimney installation, almost certainly for less than the price you are being quoted for your install. You'd have two beautiful, easy to use, soapstone stoves that would each be capable of putting out a ton of heat when wanted, or a moderate amount at other times, and I am sure would easily heat a home of 4500 square feet well into the 70's, especially a new, tighter home, using a reasonable amount of wood. Secondary back up heat would never be needed. You could probably just go with inexpensive to install back up electric baseborad heat, with thermostats in each room, for those times in winter when you were going to be away for longer than a weekend. Then you'd only need to leave heat on in rooms where pipes could freeze. Save a ton of money on installation, and no maintenance worries on a furnace, or concerns about running furnace occasionally to make sure it keeps working, etc. Only reason to go with a furnace is if you are using it to heat your water, and even then, have you looked into electric supplemented by heat exchange to heat your water?


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## Coog (Mar 30, 2013)

I think there are two types of people with some balance in between.  The ones like me that will not buy until all options are thoroughly reviewed and others who just want to get the job done.  Both are annoyed by the other.  If you are permitting the house than time is of the essence and you have to make a choice.  If there is time, I would recommend studying the options and balancing that with what your wife wants/accepts.  

Regarding the Opel, I have seen people on this forum speak to 8 plus hour burn times. With that size of house though, you will have to keep the fire hot to maintain temperature if ducting.  That means refills probably every 3 to 5 hours.  I have an 1,850 sf house with a full basement and my quad 7100 handles it fine at zero degrees but the basement stays at 50 or 60 degrees.

I think people forget that Burning with wood is a life style change, especially if you plan to cut down the tree, cut it up, split it, and stack it.  Which is really the way to save money, unless you have a cheap source to buy from but there is still work in moving it around.  It is not for the faint at heart, burning with wood  I really only started for my boys.  They need to learn how to work.  Probably would not have been worth it otherwise as propane is pretty cheap around here.  Admittedly, I like doing it though.

Good luck with you decision.


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## lithnights (Apr 17, 2013)

I think my original post had it, but if not, I'm in the Philadelphia, PA area.  The winter can get chilly here but nothing like some of the more northern areas of the U.S.

The wood furnace was very tempting and I did go back and forth on it, but my biggest fear is, if I had done an outdoor building furnace, the space that it would take up in the backyard (I only have a quarter acre, and the backyard is already going to be quite small compared to what I'm used to).  If in the basement, I didn't want to be a slave to heading down to the basement several times a day..I plan to keep a fair amount of wood in the garage so it won't be as messy as it would be if bringing in from outside 3 times a day.  AND I want to look at the fire in that family room it will be in.  I still think about it now and then but simply decided the fireplace was a better idea for our situation.

Thanks!



Oldhippie said:


> It's a large house. You haven't said where you are, but if you are in the northern half of the US, you are going to have high heating bills.
> 
> The wood furnace is some excellent advice, given you are in build/design phase and can make these kinds of choices pre any kind of a retrofit. Remember that bringing wood to the wood burner is messy, and a design where the heater is in a basement may not make that as much of a factor.. and maybe you can "design in" some easy access to from the outside.
> 
> ...


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## lithnights (Apr 17, 2013)

I checked out the website and they seemed nice.  Unfortunately, the wife really isn't crazy about that look.  If we were more in a rural area, the look may fit in better with our home, but she isn't crazy about the woodstove look, AND she definitely wants a gas fireplace in the other end of the house.  No, it's not as efficient nor will warm the house as well, but that gas fireplace would be more for looks and simplicity.. turn on for a quick/nice fire.  Also, if we were further north, I would think long and hard about the two woodstove idea, but quite frankly it doesn't get too too bitter cold in my area.. so function sometimes takes a small backseat to form..especially for the wife.   :  )



rideau said:


> To follow up on Steve's advice, you could put a Woodstock Progress Hybrid at each end of the house, with fuul ICC pipe and chimney installation, almost certainly for less than the price you are being quoted for your install. You'd have two beautiful, easy to use, soapstone stoves that would each be capable of putting out a ton of heat when wanted, or a moderate amount at other times, and I am sure would easily heat a home of 4500 square feet well into the 70's, especially a new, tighter home, using a reasonable amount of wood. Secondary back up heat would never be needed. You could probably just go with inexpensive to install back up electric baseborad heat, with thermostats in each room, for those times in winter when you were going to be away for longer than a weekend. Then you'd only need to leave heat on in rooms where pipes could freeze. Save a ton of money on installation, and no maintenance worries on a furnace, or concerns about running furnace occasionally to make sure it keeps working, etc. Only reason to go with a furnace is if you are using it to heat your water, and even then, have you looked into electric supplemented by heat exchange to heat your water?


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## lithnights (Apr 17, 2013)

I think you make a good point about that balance.  Although I'll try not to get annoyed by anyone when they're helping me out.  :  )

I'm OK with giving in a bit on the wife's preferences..after all she isn't crazy about fire and burning to begin with.  Nor the potential mess of any wood in her nice new clean house..nor potential smoke/ash etc.   She would rather have 2 gas fireplaces and just don't worry about wood anything.. I'd rather have both wood so one of each is a fair compromise IMO.  

I know a couple people with Opel 3 with similar size house (mine a bit bigger) and I think they said they load 3x a day or so.  I hear what you're saying about needing to keep it hot, and I can see that potential.  I guess I'm willing to take that chance, especially since my main heat source is supposed to be a heat pump (with propane backup).  I understand that during those very cold days (barely ever gets down to the teens here), I'll be loading that thing pretty often.  If I can't keep up, the heat pump should keep up and if not, the propane backup is there.  

I realize, at least I think I realize, the lifestyle change.  I've never had a fireplace so people probably think I don't know what I'm getting into.  But, I love having fires, I love being outside, I don't mind manual work, I'm always home (work from home most of week), and I designed a larger area in the back of my garage to store a lot of wood so I don't have to go outside all the time.. so I have confidence I'll manage.  If not, it will be an expensive judgment error.  

I don't have the wood on site (small unwooded lot) but I can get huge logs delivered fairly cheap and can split myself (and neighbor has a splitter).  But even if I have to buy cords of wood, it will still be cheaper than a propane furnace since propane is insanely expensive in this area.

Thanks!



Coog said:


> I think there are two types of people with some balance in between. The ones like me that will not buy until all options are thoroughly reviewed and others who just want to get the job done. Both are annoyed by the other. If you are permitting the house than time is of the essence and you have to make a choice. If there is time, I would recommend studying the options and balancing that with what your wife wants/accepts.
> 
> Regarding the Opel, I have seen people on this forum speak to 8 plus hour burn times. With that size of house though, you will have to keep the fire hot to maintain temperature if ducting. That means refills probably every 3 to 5 hours. I have an 1,850 sf house with a full basement and my quad 7100 handles it fine at zero degrees but the basement stays at 50 or 60 degrees.
> 
> ...


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## aansorge (Apr 17, 2013)

Another aesthetically pleasing wood stove that cranks out the heat....http://www.lopistoves.com/product-detail.aspx?model=364

The advantages of a stove:

Generally more heat
Lower costs
Can run without a fan (noise).

The new fireplaces are very good (I have one, the Enerzone 2.5ZC), but stoves are better. Show the wife a Lopi Cape Cod or Woodstock in person, then talk price (about 3000 for either stove), then make a decision!


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## Dave A. (Apr 18, 2013)

If you go with the woodburner in the family room and store your firewood in the garage as mentioned in another message (am assuming on the rear wall partition adj. to FR), might want to think about an access door from the FR near the fireplace to the woodbox in the garage during the planning stage. Not only will access be easier for loading but there also will be less debris/mess tracked through the kitchen and rest of the house.

An access door/panel to the wood box certainly could be added later, but would be easier during construction.

(This may have already been mentioned in another message -- don't see it atm-- but sorry if I missed it)


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## lithnights (Apr 18, 2013)

I had thought of such an access door actually, and perhaps some folks had suggested it. I just don't know the best design/size/functionality of such an access door. Also important is trying to make it look good and fit in with the family room..think wife. : )

I imagine a simple hinged door in the wall could be used.. but what width/height, what kind of hinge (up/down or sideways), how to trim it out so it doesn't stand out too much.

And do I just do a pass through or do you build a small shelf in the wall connecting into the garage somehow to hold a couple pieces of wood?

If not a simple door, I imagine some kind of bin/chest/box like this could be used?


http://kellercustomwoodcrafting.com/images/Firewood Box.JPG

Somehow have access from the garage and build a box in the family room (flush and finished to the wall) that holds the wood? Or simply have a bin in the garage and allow a reach through from the family room access door into the garage? Ideas welcome..

Also, insulation was a concern. The garage will be pretty well insulated but it's still an unheated space being exposed to a heated family room. The home is going to be very tight so I don't want to have a big uninsulated area where this access door will be. I imagine I could just keep a piece of thick foam insulation in the opening and fit it in and out each time I load up?

I think it would be easier to finalize the design during the framing stage but I definitely want to get some ideas now.



Thanks all!




Dave A. said:


> If you go with the woodburner in the family room and store your firewood in the garage as mentioned in another message (am assuming on the rear wall partition adj. to FR), might want to think about an access door from the FR near the fireplace to the woodbox in the garage during the planning stage. Not only will access be easier for loading but there also will be less debris/mess tracked through the kitchen and rest of the house.
> 
> An access door/panel to the wood box certainly could be added later, but would be easier during construction.
> 
> (This may have already been mentioned in another message -- don't see it atm-- but sorry if I missed it)


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## Dave A. (Apr 18, 2013)

If you don't have a lot of experience, it could be harder to make all the decisions up front and it might be better to put off some decisions until you've had more experience. Still you should think about the whole process and start making the decisions you can.

1. If you're having wood delivered (usually dumped) probably will come up the driveway and will be dumped either on the driveway or on an area adjacent to it. Then someone is going to stack it. You're probly not going to be able to put it all in the garage. Will it go on a covered porch, in a shed to be built, or elsewhere. If you follow the recommendations here, you should be thinking in terms of keeping more than a years supply on hand to dry out. The firewood for next year further away, the current years supply closer.

2. How much wood do you want to keep in the house -- 1 days supply or a weeks supply or more. Many (more finicky) people don't want to keep much if any in the house -- bugs, mess, etc. How often are you going to want to be bringing it in. Some don't mind bringing it in every day. Personally I like to keep at least a weeks worth at hand-- rarely if ever see any bugs.

Some people have an open wood box near the fireplace -- you might have something where there would be a door at the back of the wood box with access from the garage that you would load up from the garage and then close the door, and then it would be open to the room. Or it could be like the box you pictured where the back or side of that box would have an access door from the garage and you would fill it from the garage and remove it by opening the door on top. Point is if you don't have to be carrying wood from the outside into the house through other rooms to load the box, your wife is likely to be more amenable to the whole operation. But if your burning 24/7 the box you have pictured looks small and may just hold a one days supply-- not a problem if you don't mind loading it daily.

Since the garage is unheated and the house is tight, you probly want to think in terms of a tightly sealed weatherstripped and insulated door of the same properties as any other exterior door in your house (even if it's smaller) Of course if you don't have to make it a custom size but can find something stock size, cost will be lower, so you might think in terms of that. Though I would think smaller/less conspicuous would be better. Or it might just be a full size 30-36x68 door from the FR into the storage area at the back of the garage where you keep your current supply of wood (therefore not even needing a decorative wood box in the FR since it's in the garage but still close to the fireplace, in that case you'd need to decide where on that wall to put the door. I'd think you should be able to keep at least a weeks supply of wood in the garage.

Still. without experience, you don't really know how much you're going to be burning. 24/7 might be too much for you. So if you're not sure or don't want to hem yourself in, you might want to put off some decisions until you've had experience with it. This is only my second heating season with wood. In the beginning I was bringing wood in every day. That was too frequent and restricting a routine for me and now I keep about a 10 day supply bringing in wood and dumping ashes as part of the routine.

And just to repeat something Scotty Overkill mentioned about a stove in an alcove made to look like it's in a fireplace -- you might want to take a look at the thread "pictures of stoves in alcoves". There are two there where the alcove is made to look like a mock fireplace -- and suggest some very interesting ideas.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/pictures-of-wood-stoves-in-alcoves.105795/#post-1381544

http://tinyurl.com/ylye7l5 Dakotas Dad

and flusher 17's 3rd post in the thread
there are also some stove's in real fireplaces like Billybonfire's and Jofuls.

I also am a fireplace person, have to admit it, I just prefer the look of a fireplace -- but I like the look of a cast iron or soapstone stove inside a fireplace -- if the fireplace is large enough. I mention this because there should be a savings doing it that way-- stove inside of an alcove made to look like a fireplace. But whatever you do, you should look into the idea of insulating the outside walls of your fireplaces-- inside fireplaces are the most efficient, but uninsulated fireplaces on outside walls can really lose a lot of heat.


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