# Circulator question ...



## Pat53 (Nov 24, 2010)

How do I wire in a seperate circulator to kick on when ANY of my 3 zone circulators are energized? I didn't get to hook up my plumbing the way I wanted to for this season, which would be to draw directly from storage when a zone circulator kicks on. So I have to just get the supply water from the storage tank into my existing LP boiler and then distribute it from there. But I don't want to keep a circulator running continuously from the storage tank to the LP boiler, I would like it to only push water into the LP boiler when there is a call for heat. I currently have 3 Honeywell RA832A relays. Thx.

Pat


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## ewdudley (Nov 24, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> How do I wire in a seperate circulator to kick on when ANY of my 3 zone circulators are energized? I didn't get to hook up my plumbing the way I wanted to for this season, which would be to draw directly from storage when a zone circulator kicks on. So I have to just get the supply water from the storage tank into my existing LP boiler and then distribute it from there. But I don't want to keep a circulator running continuously from the storage tank to the LP boiler, I would like it to only push water into the LP boiler when there is a call for heat. I currently have 3 Honeywell RA832A relays. Thx.
> 
> Pat



Each of the RA832A relays has two independent outputs for driving two line load voltage loads with a common power source.  One of the outputs is being used for the zone circulator so there should be one left over to run the transfer pump.  

So run a wire from each of the spare RA832A outputs and join them together for the power to run the transfer pump and then any zone call for heat will energize the transfer pump.

Cheers   --ewd


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## Pat53 (Nov 24, 2010)

thanks Eliot. Ok, so one wire from the transfer circulator is tied into 3 wires that go to each relay? Where does the other wire from the circulator go?   Or do you mean run both wires from the spare circulator in this manner?  Sorry, I can do plumbing, but this wiring drives me crazy.  LOL


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## ewdudley (Nov 24, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> thanks Eliot. Ok, so one wire from the transfer circulator is tied into 3 wires that go to each relay? Where does the other wire from the circulator go?   Or do you mean run both wires from the spare circulator in this manner?  Sorry, I can do plumbing, but this wiring drives me crazy.  LOL




Hi Pat,

Sorry but me trying to teach basic wiring going back and forth an internet forum is probably not the best way to get you where you need to be.  Probably you need to get a friend there locally to drop by and work through it with you.

Nonetheless, each pump has at least two and hopefully three wires going to it: hot (L1, black), neutral (L2, white), and supposed-to-be-there-ground (green or bare-copper).

The relays switch the black wire to the circ pumps.  But your RA832A relays have two switches that can be used to provide two hot wires.  So hot goes in on terminal 1, and when the relay is active hot comes back out through two separate switches on both terminals 3 and 4.  (Neutral goes in on 2 in order to complete the circuit that powers the RA832A.)

I'm assuming there is no wire on either terminal 3 or 4 on the three circ pump relays.  You need a wire coming from each of the previously-unused-RA832A-terminals-3-or-4 all tied together to a single hot L1 that goes to the transfer pump.  This way if any of the three relays is active there will be a hot wire going to the transfer pump.

Then you need to tie-in the neutral from the transfer pump.  It needs to be tied-in with all the other neutral white wires.  For an example, look and see where the neutrals for the circ pumps come back to.  Same as when your ground clamp is connected to your boiler; you can strike an arc anywhere that is connected to anywhere that is connected to the ground clamp.

Likewise the bare-copper ground wire from the transfer pump needs to be tied-in with the rest of the ground wires.

Make damn sure that the black wire that feeds each of the three RA832A relays comes from the same leg of your 220 panel.

Make damn sure that the black wire that feeds each of the three RA832A relays comes from the same leg of your 220 panel.

When your friend drops by to check your work, have him make damn sure that the black wire that feeds each of the three RA832A relays comes from the same leg of your 220 panel.

Cheers  --ewd


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## Pat53 (Nov 24, 2010)

OK, I think I see what you mean. 

Now, first of all, none of the circulators are using ground wires. The only 2 wires coming out of them are white and black.
I took the covers off the relays and checked them, and the RA832A's appear to be wired for power in series, but terminal #4 is open yet. Also, I was wrong in that only 2 of the relays are Honeywells, the 3rd one is a White Rogers that has 3 terminals, and in that one there are 2 black wires coming into it and attatched to terminal #1 and #3, terminal #2 is open.

Not sure what you mean by this ... "Make damn sure that the black wire that feeds each of the three RA832A relays comes from the same leg of your 220 panel."

There is only one power source feeding all the relays from what I can tell?

thx, Pat


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## ewdudley (Nov 24, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> OK, I think I see what you mean.
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> Now, first of all, none of the circulators are using ground wires. The only 2 wires coming out of them are white and black.


I'm not an electrician and I don't know any code whatsoever beyond a few of the basic BSA Merit-Badge principles behind it, so it's possible that since the pumps are perhaps double-insulated, or that they're connected to black iron that is connected to earth ground, then maybe you don't need a ground.  

Then again I have been at the receiving end of ground faults from a shower head (not my house, not my work), so even as a notoriously fast-and-loose guy I would want to see some bright and shiny copper leading from each and every pump casing to panel ground, and a GFI breaker feeding the whole works.  You can shrug it off as mere Pavlovian Paranoia, but 'When it doubt, ground it out.'.  YMMV.



> I took the covers off the relays and checked them, and the RA832A's appear to be wired for power in series, but terminal #4 is open yet. Also, I was wrong in that only 2 of the relays are Honeywells, the 3rd one is a White Rogers that has 3 terminals, and in that one there are 2 black wires coming into it and attatched to terminal #1 and #3, terminal #2 is open.


Yeah, so terminal 4 is hot whenever terminal 3 is hot and can be used as described above.

Sounds like the White Rogers might be a SPDT, single-pole double-throw, which would mean when terminal 3 is hot terminal 2 is not hot, and vice versa, so maybe SOL.  Need model and schematic to verify.



> Not sure what you mean by this ... "Make damn sure that the black wire that feeds each of the three RA832A relays comes from the same leg of your 220 panel."
> 
> There is only one power source feeding all the relays from what I can tell?



Don't ask me, tell me.  If you can trace the all the relay black wires back to a single wire then they must be on the same leg.  It's highly unlikely that this wouldn't be the case, but when designing we need to identify all critical assumptions and take measures to move them from the assumption list to the fact list.

--ewd


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## Pat53 (Nov 24, 2010)

Eliot, here is what the inside of the White Rogers looks like.

thx, Pat

PS  Eliot, if I can't use the White Rodgers, is there a a cheap substitute that would work to get me by this season?


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## ewdudley (Nov 25, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> Eliot, here is what the inside of the White Rogers looks like.
> 
> thx, Pat
> 
> PS  Eliot, if I can't use the White Rodgers, is there a a cheap substitute that would work to get me by this season?



Finding that you have a couple RA832A's was fortunate because they happened to have an extra set of contacts that does exactly what you need.  You can continue to use the White Rodgers to control its circulator, but you'll need to add another relay to do what the spare contacts on the RA832A do for free.

The WR in the picture appears to be a normal SPDT relay.  The normally open contact is used to switch the circulator on, black wire in, black wire out. 

Note that the WR has no transformer.  Only the two black wires are 110VAC, all the other wires on the right are 24VAC, and therefore the relay coil is 24VAC and the 24VAC power to drive the relay is coming from somewhere else.  

This means the thermostat for the zone is being used to switch 24VAC power to the WR relay coil, which energizes the WR relay, which closes the WR relay contacts, which routes 110VAC power in one black wire and out the other black wire to the pump.

Since there is 24VAC power you can get at that's present on the low voltage terminals of the WR relay, all you need is another 24VAC relay that can be used to switch power to the transfer pump (in parallel with the  two RA832A's).  The existing thermostat can be used to switch both the WR relay and the new 24VAC relay together at the same time.  (You may need to adjust the anticipator setting on the thermostat.)

One of those RIB 24VAC coil standalone relays would do the trick for $25 or so, since you're only switching a couple of amperes of locked-rotor inrush and a few hundred milliamperes steady state current.

--ewd


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## Pat53 (Nov 25, 2010)

Ok thanks Eliot, I think I see what you mean. Can you, or anyone, tell me where I can get one of these RIB 24VAC's? Or can I get one at a local electrical supplier?

thx, Pat


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## RobC (Nov 25, 2010)

Grainger carries the RIB line.


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## Pat53 (Nov 29, 2010)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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Thanks for the help guys. Eliot, here is a pic of the inside cover of the White Rodgers. It appears to be a DPDT relay?

thx, Pat


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## ewdudley (Nov 29, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help guys. Eliot, here is a pic of the inside cover of the White Rodgers. It appears to be a DPDT relay?



Yes it's a DPDT but the two sets of poles are not mix-and-match.  Terminals 4-5-6 cannot be used for line voltage and it appears in the prior photo that they are already in use.

http://cgi.ebay.com/FUNCTIONAL-DEVI...Systems_PLCs&hash=item3361684d43#ht_878wt_907

The RIB2401D coil can be energized with 24VAC or 120VAC, so you can use the switched hot wire coming from the WR relay going to the circ to activate the RIB RIB2401D, which in turn can switch power to the transfer pump.

--ewd


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## Pat53 (Nov 30, 2010)

OK, thanks Eliot, I'll get one right away.

Pat


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## rkusek (Nov 30, 2010)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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Elliot,
Are you saying I can't switch a 120V circulator and a 24vac coil on the blower relay using a standard DPDT relay or just that White Rogers above?  The Dayton one I bought is rated 15A which is plenty for a 75W circulator I would think.  Aren't the poles electrically isolated?


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## ewdudley (Nov 30, 2010)

huskers said:
			
		

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Just the White Rodgers in the photo above.  The found-on-site  relay in the photo above is DPDT, but  one of the sets of contacts is limited to low voltage according to the small print in the schematic for the relay.  Pat needs to switch two 120VAC circulators, so NOGO there.  But, for instance, that particular relay would work for switching your circulator and the coil current of some other relay.



> The Dayton one I bought is rated 15A which is plenty for a 75W circulator I would think.



Plenty for the circulator and the hell yeahs too!



> Aren't the poles electrically isolated?



Normally yes, but there's a buhjillion configurations out there so you've got to inspect each one.  For instance the Honeywell RA832A pat is using for two of his circulators has one common feeding a pair of NO/NC contacts.

Cheers   --ewd


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## Pat53 (Nov 30, 2010)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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Eliot, after looking at this "menagerie" again, I see that there is what looks to be a seperate transformer going to the 24 VAC side of the WR. Is this correct and does it make the WR usable for my situation?

thx, Pat


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## Pat53 (Dec 2, 2010)

Eliot, just wondering if this would work:

Can I just run a black wire to the #3 terminal on the WR?  That terminal is running a circulator now, but why can't I just put another wire coming off that same terminal going to the transfer pump?

Also, do I really need to run 3 white (neutral) wires?  Can't I just run one white wire to a Honeywell, since all the white wires are run in series anyway?

thx, Pat


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## ewdudley (Dec 2, 2010)

*You need another relay.*


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## Pat53 (Dec 2, 2010)

LOL , OK. I did order the one you suggested a few days ago. I was just looking at the relays again and wondering why it wouldn't work, but needless to say my electrical knowledge is limited !

thx, Pat


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## Pat53 (Dec 12, 2010)

ewdudley said:
			
		

> *You need another relay.*



Hi Eliot, if you're around I got the other relay but have no idea how to hook it up, it has 8 wires coming out of it ?   :bug:


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## ewdudley (Dec 13, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

> Hi Eliot, if you're around I got the other relay but have no idea how to hook it up, it has 8 wires coming out of it ?   :bug:



Did you get an RIB2401D?  If so it should have nine wires according to the datasheet.

What you're going to need to do is to connect to the black wire that is hot when the WR pump is active, terminal #3, I believe.  This hot wire can be used to activate the RIB2401D by connecting to the WHT/BLK wire on the RIB2401D, with the RIB2401D WHT/YEL wire connected to system neutral.  Then route power through one of the  RIB2401D NO contacts, either from YEL to ORG, or PRP to BRN.  The hot wire from ORG or BRN (depending on which set of contacts you decide to use) then joins up with the #4 terminals from the two RA832A’s, and a single wire from the three joined wires goes as a hot wire to the transfer pump and a white neutral comes back from the transfer pump to system neutral.  

In any event, whatever  you do, since you are unsure of how to proceed, I'm sure you will agree that you need to get some local assistance to make absolutely sure everything is safe and reliable before you make any changes or apply any power.

--ewd


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## Pat53 (Dec 13, 2010)

ewdudley said:
			
		

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Eliot, yes, sorry there are 9 wires, one was still tucked in the bundle. OK, I understand the first part about the hot and common connections, but not sure about the "YEL to ORG" part. Lets say I use the BRN wire to connect to the #4 terminals of the RA 832's, where would the PRP wire go?

Pat


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## ewdudley (Dec 16, 2010)

Pat53 said:
			
		

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Have a look at the internal schematic for the RA832A relays and you'll see that they have two power-switching contacts, one routes power from terminal 1 to terminal 3 and the other routes power from terminal 1 to terminal 4.  When the relay is activated power is available on terminal 3 for the associated load circulator and now we're going to take power from terminal 4 for the transfer pump.

But the WR relay only has one set of power-switching contacts, from terminal 1 to to terminal 3 (not counting the normally closed terminal 2).  So terminal 3 feeds the load circ, but we don't have an independent set of contacts for the transfer pump, which is where the RIB2401D comes in.  So we activate the RIB2401D using 120 volts from terminal 3 of the WR relay to the 120VAC WHT/BLK relay coil activation wire.  When the RIB2401D is activated it closes switches from YEL to ORG and PRP to BRN, but we only need one of them and so --flips coin-- PRP to BRN it is.

So we're going to use the PRP to BRN path in the same way that the RA832As implement the terminal 1 to terminal 4 path, just so it's same-o same-o and maybe easier to follow.  To do this simply connect from terminal 1 of the WR relay to the PRP wire.

Cheers   --ewd


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## Pat53 (Dec 17, 2010)

Eliot, thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it.

Pat


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