# First look at Drolet's new EPA 2020 wood furnace...



## brenndatomu (Aug 28, 2020)

Wood Furnaces |Heat Commander Furnace
					

Only EPA certified Drolet furnace, the Heat Commander is perfect for heating up to 2,500 ft² with an output of 310,000 BTU. Self-Regulated Combustion.




					www.drolet.ca
				




Looks like its called the Heat Commander...but some of the parts are listed as being for the Tundra III too, so...anyways, looks like list price of $2799 USD. (and it still has a window!)
I was hoping to figure out it they are using a thermocouple, or a O2 sensor to sense/control for the stepper motor...couldn't find anything yet.


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## Highbeam (Aug 28, 2020)

21” wood east west or north south! Sounds big.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 29, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> 21” wood east west or north south! Sounds big.


I think that's wrong... measurements say only 18.5" wide...


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## brenndatomu (Aug 29, 2020)

Looks like they went the thermocouple route (found it in the parts list)...rats...I was hoping to see someone go to using an O2 sensor on a forced air furnace...seems like that is working out real well on the boilers...


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## 3fordasho (Aug 29, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Looks like they went the thermocouple route (found it in the parts list)...rats...I was hoping to see someone go to using an O2 sensor on a forced air furnace...seems like that is working out real well on the boilers...
> View attachment 262569


As little as possible to get by I'm sure. I wonder if the air inlet is stepper motor controlled or basically open / almost shut off like before?


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## 3fordasho (Aug 29, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> 21” wood east west or north south! Sounds big.


3.6 cuft box just like the earlier versions.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 29, 2020)

3fordasho said:


> As little as possible to get by I'm sure. I wonder if the air inlet is stepper motor controlled or basically open / almost shut off like before?


I found a stepper motor in the parts list...the intake is not exposed like before though...looks like it has a "false front", more like the Caddys now...


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## Highbeam (Aug 29, 2020)

Sorry, I’m remote. Has this furnace made the epa list yet?


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## brenndatomu (Aug 29, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Sorry, I’m remote. Has this furnace made the epa list yet?


No


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## Gbawol42 (Aug 30, 2020)

Surprised to see the window for sure.  Curious to see what parts could maybe be transferred to the T2.  I would love a stepper motor.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 30, 2020)

Gbawol42 said:


> Surprised to see the window for sure.  Curious to see what parts could maybe be transferred to the T2.  I would love a stepper motor.


Get your wallet out...I seen in the parts list that the motor is $150 and the controller card is $600


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## laynes69 (Aug 31, 2020)

Do you have a link for the parts list? The furnace has a resemblance of the Caddy? I'd be willing to swap out parts if it could be done, much cheaper than buying a new one.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 31, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> Do you have a link for the parts list? The furnace has a resemblance of the Caddy? I'd be willing to swap out parts if it could be done, much cheaper than buying a new one.


It's just the parts list that's available from the main page...and there's no pics yet...I'm kinda doubting retrofit possibilities...but hard to day for sure at this point.


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## Highbeam (Aug 31, 2020)

*"Yes, EPA 2020 approved* "

A one speed blower. 

Electrical "average " consumption of 1100 watts!

Then 5 different efficiency numbers all with marketing BS attached.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 31, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> A one speed blower.


In one place it says one speed blower, in another it says 4 speed...


Highbeam said:


> Electrical "average " consumption of 1100 watts!


No wonder it passed the EPA 2020 test...its an electric furnace!


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## 3fordasho (Sep 1, 2020)

At least there will be another option that is a little higher priced then the POS Shelter/Fire Chief  units.  Not everyone can spring for the Kuuma VF.   Will be interesting to see how they implemented the stepper motor air inlet.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 1, 2020)

I hope to see Englander offer their manual model furnace again too...they already have the new version of the stove it was based off of (NC30....now the NC32) 2020 certified so...that will probably be the entry level price wise going forward...


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## Mrpelletburner (Sep 1, 2020)

Another season is around the corner and always the same folks to arrive first to the party.

@brenndatomu it's been 2 years, aren't you due for a new unit?


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## brenndatomu (Sep 1, 2020)

Mrpelletburner said:


> Another season is around the corner and always the same folks to arrive first to the party.
> 
> @brenndatomu it's been 2 years, aren't you due for a new unit?



Never say never...a good deal doesn't pass me by very often...


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## lampmfg (Sep 1, 2020)

It looks like they are controlling the burn rate with a remote thermostat.  If so, are they considering the time when it sits on idle?  We would like to see the actual test results.  

In the US, all woodburning furnaces must meet all 4 burn categories. Just like the Fire Chief, SF1000E didn't conduct a full idle. The EPA is not supposed to grant EPA (US) certification when this occurs.  

The remote stat must be set, so it doesn't adjust the woodburning rate at all during the burn.  It has to be disconnected.  This is required just in case people overload their furnace for present conditions or if unexpected conditions occur (it warms up).  In the "Real World," this will happen frequently.  The EPA must know what amount of pollution results when their thermostat doesn't call for heat idling for hours on end.

The full idle burn cat 1 test requires the testing lab to load up the furnace with the required amount for its fire chamber size and run the entire burn with the remote stat disconnected (pollution then?)


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## Highbeam (Sep 1, 2020)

Yep, it looks like it will have a remote thermostat but that doesn't mean it can't idle cleanly. I suspect that the "idle speed" will just be higher until it runs clean enough to pass. Like a noncat woodstove with a stop on the intake setting so you can't go too low.

In the end it will be a furnace that burns hot or hotter to remain clean, just like most noncat stoves. The thermostat will choose between the two levels of hot and not on/off.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 1, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> We would like to see the actual test results.


Those should be available at some point, no?


lampmfg said:


> It looks like they are controlling the burn rate with a remote thermostat


That's why I was a little surprised when I seen the thermocouple...to me going to an O2 sensor is the obvious solution...burn clean at any burn rate...and I don't see where it would be any more complicated or expensive than the existing controls.
My dad and brother have been shopping for a new boiler to replace their old CB smoker...I've been harping on them about getting rid of that inefficient old smoke dragon for years...anyways, they are finally considering it...I went with them to see some gassers in operation...I was highly impressed with the level of control they have with the lambda sensor, no matter the heat load...and the one brand used all off the shelf sensor/controls...stuff can be bought at AutoZone and Grainger...the controller does have a proprietary program though...


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## JRHAWK9 (Sep 1, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> It looks like they are controlling the burn rate with a remote thermostat.  If so, are they considering the time when it sits on idle?  We would like to see the actual test results.
> 
> In the US, all woodburning furnaces must meet all 4 burn categories. Just like the Fire Chief, SF1000E didn't conduct a full idle. The EPA is not supposed to grant EPA (US) certification when this occurs.
> 
> ...



I smell what you are stepping in.   

IIRC, that category 1 burn is the hardest to meet.  Pretty much need to burn clean at whatever furnace settings the homeowner has the ability to adjust to when they don't need/want heat....like you said, at full blown idle.  It would be like loading up an old school stove/furnace with a firebox full of wood and closing off the primary air damper and still getting a clean burn.      

I think the Hy-C appliances actually failed three out of the four categories......and somehow still received certification.  I'd like to know who the female "escort" was who they took to the lab with them when they had it tested.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 1, 2020)

Among the lowest burn rates on the market (firewood savings)
In the description ^ ^ ^...and also noticed...
"Find peace of mind thanks to its self-regulated combustion that allows easy ignition, as well as detection and rectification in the event of a loss of flame. Automated air supply management and flame adjustment to match thermostat demand will give you approved safety, optimized comfort, reduced emissions and minimal maintenance."

Almost sounds like it can relight in the event of flameout?
I see that MFP shows available to ship on 9-3-2020...wonder when we will have our first "help" thread from a new owner?


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## JRHAWK9 (Sep 2, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Among the lowest burn rates on the market (firewood savings)
> In the description ^ ^ ^...and also noticed...
> "Find peace of mind thanks to its self-regulated combustion that allows easy ignition, as well as detection and rectification in the event of a loss of flame. Automated air supply management and flame adjustment to match thermostat demand will give you approved safety, optimized comfort, reduced emissions and minimal maintenance."
> 
> ...




hmmm, "self-regulated combustion" and "rectification in the event of a loss of flame" tells me they are not too confident in their "self-regulated combustion" system!


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## brenndatomu (Sep 2, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> hmmm, "self-regulated combustion" and "rectification in the event of a loss of flame" tells me they are not too confident in their "self-regulated combustion" system!


I guess the way I read that, I think maybe they have the "idle speed" turned down so low that they need to be able to "re-spark" if it flames out? Especially if someone is trying to burn less than dry wood...I dunno, just spitballin...


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## JRHAWK9 (Sep 2, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> I guess the way I read that, I think maybe they have the "idle speed" turned down so low that they need to be able to "re-spark" if it flames out? Especially if someone is trying to burn less than dry wood...I dunno, just spitballin...




could be.  I was just playing devil's advocate.      One would think if it even comes close to flaming out it wouldn't be burning clean right before flame-out...?

I've always found it hard to believe the marketing stuff though.  Heck, back when doing my research on the Kuuma, it's the reason I literally looked at all the reviewers names on Lamppa's site and stalked as many of them I could find the number for.    I literally went down the list one by one and searched for phone numbers for as many of them as I could find.  Once I had my list of numbers I started calling.  I did not necessarily believe the marketing hype,  including Stihly's review on here, as I had no way of knowing at the time if he was being paid or was even an employee of the company.  I wanted to hear from as many people who had as much real world usage time as I could.  

Although, I'm the type of guy who can't buy a freakin' roll of TP without researching it first.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 2, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Although, I'm the type of guy who can't buy a freakin' roll of TP without researching it first.


Boy, I bad that put you in a bad spot back when it was "better buy whatever you can get your hands on" earlier this year!


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## laynes69 (Sep 2, 2020)

I mean if drolet would like to send me a furnace.....I'd be more than happy to test it lol.


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## sloeffle (Sep 3, 2020)

Personally, I'd wait until the dust settles before buying a new model of anything. Think T1 ......


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## brenndatomu (Sep 3, 2020)

sloeffle said:


> Personally, I'd wait until the dust settles before buying a new model of anything. Think T1 ......


Meh...if they're just gonna send ya one to try...nobody said anything about _buying_ one


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## sloeffle (Sep 3, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Meh...if they're just gonna send ya one to try...nobody said anything about _buying_ one


Free furnaces are like free beer, I've never turned one down.


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## woodey (Sep 3, 2020)

sloeffle said:


> Free furnaces are like free beer, I've never turned one down.


I hear ya, but I find that the best  of both are made by independently owned "Micro" companies.


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## lampmfg (Sep 3, 2020)

From our best estimation with the Drolet quick ignition, the ignition depends on what the remote stat says.  If your room temperature is higher than the setting, it's not going to activate the higher ignition part of the 2 stage control & then, consequently, the fire will die down & possibly smolder (creosote, smoke, & pollution) for who knows how long.

For instance, if you had a catalytic furnace, the test would require you to turn off the remote stat before any wood is loaded for the test. Then it would "full idle" for the entire burn with the pilot air you have provided for the unit in case your remote stat is satisfied for however long it may be (hr or hrs?)  What's the pollution then the EPA needs to know right?


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## brenndatomu (Sep 3, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> If your room temperature is higher than the setting, it's not going to activate the higher ignition part of the 2 stage control & then, consequently, the fire will die down & possibly smolder (creosote, smoke, & pollution) for who knows how long.


Playing devils advocate here...what makes you think they didn't basically copy the Vaporfire's control logic? But instead of the manual low/medium/high adjustment, they have the remote Tstat changing the setting to "high" automatically...when Tstat is satisfied the program just reverts back to idle/low...?
Since there is apparently an internal thermocouple, and a stepper motor to control the air, its certainly possible...and it looks like they still have the RTD temp sensor from the Tundra II, which allows the blower motor to change speeds as plenum temps allow...


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## Highbeam (Sep 4, 2020)

One person’s low smoldering polluting idle is another person’s clean burning lowest possible clean burning rate. Stoves have been regulated to have a non smoldering low setting for decades.


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## lampmfg (Sep 6, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> One person’s low smoldering polluting idle is another person’s clean burning lowest possible clean burning rate. Stoves have been regulated to have a non smoldering low setting for decades.






brenndatomu said:


> Playing devils advocate here...what makes you think they didn't basically copy the Vaporfire's control logic? But instead of the manual low/medium/high adjustment, they have the remote Tstat changing the setting to "high" automatically...when Tstat is satisfied the program just reverts back to idle/low...?
> Since there is apparently an internal thermocouple, and a stepper motor to control the air, its certainly possible...and it looks like they still have the RTD temp sensor from the Tundra II, which allows the blower motor to change speeds as plenum temps allow...



From what we have seen we don’t think this is possible with their design. Especially with our patent just being published last week.  I’m not going to go into a lot of details because they are our design secrets.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 6, 2020)

Congrats on the patent...surprised you are just now getting one though.
And totally understand not wanting to discuss this stuff on open forum...


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## lampmfg (Sep 7, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Congrats on the patent...surprised you are just now getting one though.
> And totally understand not wanting to discuss this stuff on open forum...


We had one before but it expired. This is a new one encompassing our design.


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## blades (Sep 7, 2020)

Us patent office makes molassas that has been standing outside in Jan. look like the Colorado River in spring.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 25, 2020)

Must be some parts on backorder for these things...the available ship date they show on the site keeps getting pushed back...they do have manuals posted now though...


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## brenndatomu (Sep 26, 2020)

I see an upper and a lower thermocouple, and a stepper motor on both the primary and secondary air...


			https://myfireplaceproducts.com/media/contentmanager/content/products_documents/46201A_2020-09-22.pdf


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## laynes69 (Sep 26, 2020)

I want one! It sounds impressive and quite advanced. I like that it has motors to keep combustion optimal but also uses a thermostat to regulate the thermostat in the home. I also see they used firebrick to protect the face of the furnace.


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## Highbeam (Sep 26, 2020)

And they ditched the ash plug for a grate.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 26, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> I want one!


Just click the add to cart button...








						HEAT COMMANDER WOOD FURNACE
					

Among the most efficient systems on the market based on distributed energy, the Heat Commander is a central heating system that is both cutting edge and accessible thanks to its innovative design and ease of use. EPA certified, its 310,000 BTU capacity




					myfireplaceproducts.com
				





laynes69 said:


> It sounds impressive and quite advanced. I like that it has motors to keep combustion optimal but also uses a thermostat to regulate the thermostat in the home. I also see they used firebrick to protect the face of the furnace.


Yeah it will be interesting to see how it works out...we all know how using the Tstat on normal secondary burn fireboxes works out.
Guess they didn't want a repeat of Tundra with the face cracking...most of the air comes in the back now so probably pretty easy to protect the front.


Highbeam said:


> And they ditched the ash plug for a grate.


I guess so...hadn't noticed that...no loss in my mind...using that setup was a waste of time...plus the ashes break down further if left to build up in the firebox for a week or so...


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## laynes69 (Sep 26, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Just click the add to cart button...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol....I'd love to! My wife is looking at a new vehicle and I bought a tractor so it's more of a pipe dream! SBI won awards for their automated stoves in a competition,  and I think this is the technology. While I understand Kuuma is patented, this seems a little more advanced. Speaking with Bert years ago, they had been working on the technology, so for SBI it's nothing new.


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## lampmfg (Sep 26, 2020)

They still don't have the tests available on their website.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 26, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> this seems a little more advanced. Speaking with Bert years ago, they had been working on the technology, so for SBI it's nothing new.


Meh...if they had used a lambda sensor I'd say it was "advanced technology" (compared to existing forced air furnaces...it's been around a while in boilers) but as is it just a different spiced up flavor of "me too". I like that they are controlling secondary air too...but some manual stoves have done that for years so...


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## Highbeam (Sep 30, 2020)

I keep thinking about this furnace, it's that time of year you know. There seems to be this worry about low/idle pollution but that is silly. This thing will just run hot enough that it is always clean and then run hotter when the thermostat calls for heat. Like all of the other noncat stoves, the regulations simply prevent a low setting from ever happening. Seems so easy I must be missing why anybody is worried about the pollution at low. There is no low.  The way to get less heat is to let the fire go out. 

2799$ with free shipping, available on 10/5 per today's check at the above link.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 30, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Meh...if they had used a lambda sensor I'd say it was "advanced technology" (compared to existing forced air furnaces...it's been around a while in boilers) but as is it just a different spiced up flavor of "me too". I like that they are controlling secondary air too...but some manual stoves have done that for years so...


My thoughts exactly about the lambda sensor.


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## lampmfg (Oct 1, 2020)

The Heat Commander is NOT EPA certified.  We were on the phone with the EPA speaking about our ongoing compliance issue concerns regarding the Firechief.  Rafael Sanchez manages the EPA wood heat program stated that the Heat Commander isn't EPA certified at this time, and they aren't allowed to advertise EPA certification or sell in the US until certified.  We know that they have literature stating they are in multiple spots, but he has reached out to them about removing it.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 1, 2020)

Those sneaky Canooks...


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## JRHAWK9 (Oct 1, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> The Heat Commander is NOT EPA certified.  We were on the phone with the EPA speaking about our ongoing compliance issue concerns regarding the Firechief.  Rafael Sanchez manages the EPA wood heat program stated that the Heat Commander isn't EPA certified at this time, and they aren't allowed to advertise EPA certification or sell in the US until certified.  We know that they have literature stating they are in multiple spots, but he has reached out to them about removing it.



Explains why they don't have any certification results posted in their owners manual like they are required to after being certified.

Thinking about "adding to cart" just for them to tell me they can't sell one to me.


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## lampmfg (Oct 1, 2020)

I'm not saying they aren't trying or where they are at in the process (don't know), but they haven't been certified at this time.


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## Highbeam (Oct 1, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> I'm not saying they aren't trying or where they are at in the process (don't know), but they haven't been certified at this time.



Good info. This is why we tell folks to look at the actual EPA approval list and not depend on marketing brochures. Unfortunately, the Firechief stayed on that list for far too long.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 1, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Unfortunately, the Firechief stayed on that list for far too long.


Heck, its still on it! And its in all the big box stores now since its the only choice for them currently...I was in my second favorite store the other day (Rural King of Ohio) and they have them now too...never did before though, they had USSC junk before (and Drolet, at one time)
I thought seriously about taping a PSA on the SH1000 "Warning, do not buy this POS, see Hearth.com for reviews!" but my wife was with me and I figured she would not appreciated being unceremoniously escorted to the door with me


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## lampmfg (Oct 2, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Good info. This is why we tell folks to look at the actual EPA approval list and not depend on marketing brochures. Unfortunately, the Firechief stayed on that list for far too long.


And it's still on that list, smh.  Yesterday we made it all the way up to David Hindin, who is the actual Director of Compliance.  He assured us it's being resolved and apologized for the length of time it has taken.  They will be looking at there internal procedures moving forward when they receive credible information.  I feel our virtual meeting went well but it's such a process with the type of stuff.  I feel bad for the consumers who have no clue.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 2, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> I feel bad for the consumers who have no clue.


Exactly...and their sales are probably pretty good since its the only big box store wood furnace option right now...


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## JRHAWK9 (Oct 2, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> I feel bad for the consumers who have no clue.






brenndatomu said:


> Exactly...and their sales are probably pretty good since its the only big box store wood furnace option right now...



...and so many of them do zero research before making purchases like this.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 2, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> ...and so many of them do zero research before making purchases like this.


Yep...oops!


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## brenndatomu (Oct 2, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Thinking about "adding to cart" just for them to tell me they can't sell one to me.


They are showing "available" now...


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## JRHAWK9 (Oct 2, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> They are showing "available" now...



I see that......they have 11 "in stock".


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## lampmfg (Oct 2, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> I keep thinking about this furnace, it's that time of year you know. There seems to be this worry about low/idle pollution but that is silly. This thing will just run hot enough that it is always clean and then run hotter when the thermostat calls for heat. Like all of the other noncat stoves, the regulations simply prevent a low setting from ever happening. Seems so easy I must be missing why anybody is worried about the pollution at low. There is no low.  The way to get less heat is to let the fire go out.
> 
> 2799$ with free shipping, available on 10/5 per today's check at the above link.



It's more complicated than that.  Stove testing is only worried about grams per hour.  Furnaces need to make the 4 categories.  The amount of air on the non-demand stage may not keep it in category 1 if there is to much air, and if there isn't enough, it doesn't get the fire going and burn clean.


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## laynes69 (Oct 2, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> It's more complicated than that.  Stove testing is only worried about grams per hour.  Furnaces need to make the 4 categories.  The amount of air on the non-demand stage may not keep it in category 1 if there is to much air, and if there isn't enough, it doesn't get the fire going and burn clean.



Well fortunately companies will pull off clean furnaces and there wont be a monopoly on the market.  Market needs competition and it sounds like your fighting all you can (it's good for business I guess). I'm not saying the Kuuma isn't a great furnace but consumers need cheaper options.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 2, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> Market needs competition


Agreed.
I think even @lampmfg  would agree that competition is what drives us all to be better. (well, maybe not if you are Lamppa MFG and the competition is HY-C!   )
And besides, monopoly's are illegal


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## lampmfg (Oct 2, 2020)

We want a level playing field for all.  If that is achieved, we are fine with the outcome.  If someone has to test one way and someone else differently, the numbers are skewed, and most consumers won't know any better.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 2, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> If someone has to test one way and someone else differently


Amen. That's total BS


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## lampmfg (Oct 2, 2020)

I think that we have tried to handle this well.  Allowing a product like the Firechief on the market for this long at that price when EPA's own measurement division recommends 3 of the 4 tests by invalidated is very frustrating and definitely hurts our sales.  I understand what you are saying about a lower price point, but it's going to be tough to achieve any budget models in the future.   The Heat Commander looks like it will cost twice as much as the Firechief so that's not a budget model.  However, I do see that the Heat Commander was removed from the Drolet website today.


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## JRHAWK9 (Oct 2, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> However, I do see that the Heat Commander was removed from the Drolet website today.



Looks like you can still purchase it here though:








						HEAT COMMANDER WOOD FURNACE
					

Among the most efficient systems on the market based on distributed energy, the Heat Commander is a central heating system that is both cutting edge and accessible thanks to its innovative design and ease of use. EPA certified, its 310,000 BTU capacity




					myfireplaceproducts.com
				




Wonder if they actually have them in stock or if they would be dropped shipped from the manufacturer...?


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## brenndatomu (Oct 2, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Looks like you can still purchase it here though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My understanding is that MFP is the "factory store"


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## brenndatomu (Oct 2, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> The Heat Commander looks like it will cost twice as much as the Firechief so that's not a budget model.


Still within the reach of many people...and 20 times the furnace (probably more!) for only twice the price!


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## Highbeam (Oct 3, 2020)

Twice as much as a fire chief but half as much as the only other furnace.


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## woodey (Oct 3, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> but half as much as the only other furnace.


Yes, but until we see several real world application results its possible that it is worth only 
half  as much.


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## Highbeam (Oct 3, 2020)

woodey said:


> Yes, but until we see several real world application results its possible that it is worth only
> half  as much.



Sure. For that matter it isn’t worth squat right now!


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## Mrpelletburner (Oct 4, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Looks like you can still purchase it here though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just sent them an email asking. Unfortunately the “canned” response is all in French.

I like that side tool holder, need to fabricate one.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 4, 2020)

Mrpelletburner said:


> I just sent them an email asking. Unfortunately the “canned” response is all in French.
> 
> I like that side tool holder, need to fabricate one.


If they haven't gotten final approval yet, they can't sell to the USA.


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## Case1030 (Oct 4, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> If they haven't gotten final approval yet, they can't sell to the USA.



Probably on the same waiting list as the VF200... everything is backed up.


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## laynes69 (Oct 5, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> However, I do see that the Heat Commander was removed from the Drolet website today.


So why are they forced to remove their literature if they changed to say pending approval and took them off the market? If the VF200 hasn't officially been approved, it's still advertised on your site but not for sale? I don't see where that's fair for the company.


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## lampmfg (Oct 5, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> So why are they forced to remove their literature if they changed to say pending approval and took them off the market? If the VF200 hasn't officially been approved, it's still advertised on your site but not for sale? I don't see where that's fair for the company.


I agree with you.  The only thing they shouldn't be able to do is to say EPA approved without actually being EPA approved.  Unfortunately, they had EPA approved in many different locations.


----------



## laynes69 (Oct 6, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> I agree with you.  The only thing they shouldn't be able to do is to say EPA approved without actually being EPA approved.  Unfortunately, they had EPA approved in many different locations.



I'm not trying to come off as being a dick....but honestly it's a slippery slope with advertising. Either way I have no say in the game.....but I see similarities against a complaint.


----------



## lampmfg (Oct 6, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> I'm not trying to come off as being a dick....but honestly it's a slippery slope with advertising. Either way I have no say in the game.....but I see similarities against a complaint.


Lol - I see what you're saying.  However, that is a very vague correlation, but I guess it could be assumed.  They had a direct question on the sight and in the manual saying yes EPA Phase 2 certified.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 6, 2020)

HC was not showing up on the MFP site earlier...its back now though...still shows 11 in stock for some reason...


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## SBIMarc (Oct 8, 2020)

Just to end the speculation from all of you nice folks... The Heat Commander is EPA-certified.  EPA indeed did not want us to advertize the product until the official paperwork had been sent to us, even though the certification report had been completed and filed.  We were okay with that and took the furnace off our web site right away when asked to.  Anyway, we did receive official certification, so the unit is back online. It should appear on the EPA directory in a matter of days now.  Hope that answers your questions!  We are very pleased with this unit.  The build quality is as good as it gets. It is more sophisticated than our previous models though, in that the unit is more "intelligent" (if I may say).  It will self-adjust to correct operator errors and prevent the unit from smoking (for instance, if loading door is closed too quickly).  It is impressive how clean it burns. Aside from that, it is a true central heater that will increase combustion and plenum temperature (and hence kick blower on) based on thermostatic demand.  This was not easy to achieve because smoke mainly occurs during these "transitions" between high and low burn.  But we got there.  It took us more time than we would have liked but there was no point in botching the job. The good side of this is that the unit has been burning  in our lab for a very long time.  It is rugged.  Beautiful fire through the glass door. Long burn times and good effficiency on all burn rates.  Extremely good value for something with that level of technology, especially for less than $3,000. Have a great fall everyone.


----------



## brenndatomu (Oct 8, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Just to end the speculation from all of you nice folks... The Heat Commander is EPA-certified.  EPA indeed did not want us to advertize the product until the official paperwork had been sent to us, even though the certification report had been completed and filed.  We were okay with that and took the furnace off our web site right away when asked to.  Anyway, we did receive official certification, so the unit is back online. It should appear on the EPA directory in a matter of days now.  Hope that answers your questions!  We are very pleased with this unit.  The build quality is as good as it gets. It is more sophisticated than our previous models though, in that the unit is more "intelligent" (if I may say).  It will self-adjust to correct operator errors and prevent the unit from smoking (for instance, if loading door is closed too quickly).  It is impressive how clean it burns. Aside from that, it is a true central heater that will increase combustion and plenum temperature (and hence kick blower on) based on thermostatic demand.  This was not easy to achieve because smoke mainly occurs during these "transitions" between high and low burn.  But we got there.  It took us more time than we would have liked but there was no point in botching the job. The good side of this is that the unit has been burning  in our lab for a very long time.  It is rugged.  Beautiful fire through the glass door. Long burn times and good effficiency on all burn rates.  Extremely good value for something with that level of technology, especially for less than $3,000. Have a great fall everyone.


Welcome to Hearth Marc, and thanks for the update.
You should check in here once in a while...many people miss having an SBI rep participate here since Fyrebug left some years back. (I don't recall his real name, @laynes69  would remember)
And I think SBI benefits by being able to head off bad PR problems when you get some hothead on here spewing venom about their new unit that doesn't work and "is a POS" becuase of XYZ blah blah blah (read: usually wet wood  )
Not to mention answering questions when people are shopping...I know I have seen more than once where people end up making the decision to buy a certain unit due to a factory rep being on here participating...


----------



## laynes69 (Oct 8, 2020)

Yes, very nice to see a SBI rep (president maybe)? I'm excited to see real world reviews and knowing the furnaces were tested with cordwood is promising. Bert Plourde was very helpful on the site when he worked for SBI as I also had the pleasure to meet him in person.  Anyhow @SBIMarc , is the new furnace a load and go unit? Also since the burn is cleaner and knowing the heat exchanger, what is heating power comparable to the Caddy or does it can it produce more heat?


----------



## SBIMarc (Oct 8, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Welcome to Hearth Marc, and thanks for the update.
> You should check in here once in a while...many people miss having an SBI rep participate here since Fyrebug left some years back. (I don't recall his real name, @laynes69  would remember)
> And I think SBI benefits by being able to head off bad PR problems when you get some hothead on here spewing venom about their new unit that doesn't work and "is a POS" becuase of XYZ blah blah blah (read: usually wet wood  )
> Not to mention answering questions when people are shopping...I know I have seen more than once where people end up making the decision to buy a certain unit due to a factory rep being on here participating...


Sure, I will be happy to participate when I can contribute. We have employees checking the forum once in a while but they are not registered.  They alerted me that there was a lot of speculation about the Heat Commander, so I thought an update was a good idea. This can be time consuming  if it becomes a pissing contest between manufacturers.  It is not really our style to get involved with that. I think we should all be proud to have a healthy industry here in North America.  Everyone is trying to make a living and is generally very passionate. I admire that. Plus, many of us work together on industry committees and we have way more to gain by working together than bitching at each other.  It's not our style to be the ones stiring the pot.


----------



## SBIMarc (Oct 8, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> Yes, very nice to see a SBI rep (president maybe)? I'm excited to see real world reviews and knowing the furnaces were tested with cordwood is promising. Bert Plourde was very helpful on the site when he worked for SBI as I also had the pleasure to meet him in person.  Anyhow @SBIMarc , is the new furnace a load and go unit? Also since the burn is cleaner and knowing the heat exchanger, what is heating power comparable to the Caddy or does it can it produce more heat?


Yes, it is a load and go unit. You load and press the "start button" and you're basically done.  The heat power is almost identical to the Caddy.  It is a bigger unit though (physically).  You will load more wood into it, which is nice.  We can't wait to get field reviews. It was all tested with cordwood and we had numerous random users try it, all with different loading techniques. The unit was able to accomodate everyone and minimize smoke. This one comes with the plenum is and more of a DIY unit.  A pro version in our Caddy line will hot the market next year.


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## SBIMarc (Oct 8, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Wood Furnaces |Heat Commander Furnace
> 
> 
> Only EPA certified Drolet furnace, the Heat Commander is perfect for heating up to 2,500 ft² with an output of 310,000 BTU. Self-Regulated Combustion.
> ...


Thermocouples!


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## brenndatomu (Oct 8, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> will increase combustion and plenum temperature (and hence kick blower on) based on thermostatic demand.


So the Tstat calls for heat, the air control stepper motor(s) open to kick up the fire, then the blower responds according to plenum temps, right?


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## brenndatomu (Oct 8, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Thermocouples!


I have no doubt this will work well, but I personally was really hoping to see someone use lambda sensors on a forced air furnace...I have studied in depth several outdoor wood "boilers" that are set up that way, and the control of the fire and emissions was impressive! Air adjustments made continuously for the perfect stoichiometry almost all the time. Got to spend some time talking with the designer/builder of the one unit...very interesting stuff!
The unit that was running when I was there would actually condense when idling, and the condensate was perfectly clear. You could take a big whiff of the exhaust right at the chimney exit and it smelled like fresh autumn air with a hint of "roasted wood" to it.
I know that an indoor unit could not be ran in a way that lets it condense though...


----------



## SBIMarc (Oct 8, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> So the Tstat calls for heat, the air control stepper motor(s) open to kick up the fire, then the blower responds according to plenum temps, right?


Pretty much.  We have not reinvented how our furnaces work. Conceptually, the HC works like our other furnaces. However, we have put more intelligence and more precision into the whole process.  The HC is just as effective, but it is able to significantly reduce the level of smoke while in operation.


----------



## brenndatomu (Oct 8, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> I think we should all be proud to have a healthy industry here in North America.


I agree...except for that miserable POS FC1000e that HY-C is flooding the big box/DIY market with...Consumer Product Safety Commission should be involved with that one...


----------



## brenndatomu (Oct 8, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> We have employees checking the forum once in a while but they are not registered


Kind of suspected as much...when Tundra 1 got to be popular, and then issues started popping up , eventually the thread got to be 100 pages plus, figured that surely _someone_ at SBI was monitoring things by that point...even if just on their own time...


----------



## brenndatomu (Oct 9, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> We can't wait to get field reviews. It was all tested with cordwood and we had numerous random users try it, all with different loading techniques. The unit was able to accomodate everyone and minimize smoke.


I'm sure I can speak for @laynes69  and say that he, as a current Caddy owner, and myself as a former Tundra owner would gladly volunteer our beta testing services...


----------



## Mrpelletburner (Oct 9, 2020)

Also, as a current Heat Max II owner and a previous owner of FC 2 models, I would also be open to volunteer as a testing site.


----------



## SBIMarc (Oct 9, 2020)

Mrpelletburner said:


> Also, as a current Heat Max II owner and a previous owner of FC 2 models, I would also be open to volunteer as a testing site.


Thanks guys.  I will note your interest.  Just so you know, the Heat Commander has the built-in capability to be a connected object. We are planning on launching a project in Quebec with specific users where we can capture filed data about many aspects of the combustion and run algorithms to see what we can find out. This could eventually improve homeowner experience by spotting potential install problems, advising on maintenance, etc.  We could potentially extend this project to some people in the US.  We would need to organize a videoconference with interested users.  It would be nice to get to know some of you, see your face, learn about your background and how you could contribute to this project.


----------



## laynes69 (Oct 9, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> I'm sure I can speak for @laynes69  and say that he, as a current Caddy owner, and myself as a former Tundra owner would gladly volunteer our beta testing services...


Absolutely! This little old house needs some new iron in the basement! I'm all setup, wouldn't take long to install....lol. The ol' Caddy has served well, but I'm ready for something new. Actually been driving the wife crazy over the new furnace.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 9, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> Actually been driving the wife crazy over the new furnace.


As someone who has installed 5 different wood furnaces (plus 3 stoves) in the last 11-12 years, (plus the ones I have done for others too) my wife can relate...when I did the permanent install of the VF100 she said "this better be the last change for a while" I told her nope, I won't switch anymore...this year.   (that was last year...the VF100 was set up temporarily as an "add on furnace" winter '18-'19 too)
That probably sounds worse than it is...I have a basement garage so the "in and out" of changing is not that bad...except for that dang Yukon Husky Wood/Oil...had to totally disassemble it _and_ take the door _and frame_ out of the wall to get it through the furnace room door!


----------



## SBIMarc (Oct 9, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> Absolutely! This little old house needs some new iron in the basement! I'm all setup, wouldn't take long to install....lol. The ol' Caddy has served well, but I'm ready for something new. Actually been driving the wife crazy over the new furnace.


Good!  We will reach out to those interested when we are ready.  Thanks for your interest, and nice house by the way.  Seems like a quiet and peaceful place. Have a good weekend.  Canadian Thanksgiving here, so many people off Monday.


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## lampmfg (Oct 9, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Just to end the speculation from all of you nice folks... The Heat Commander is EPA-certified.  EPA indeed did not want us to advertize the product until the official paperwork had been sent to us, even though the certification report had been completed and filed.  We were okay with that and took the furnace off our web site right away when asked to.  Anyway, we did receive official certification, so the unit is back online. It should appear on the EPA directory in a matter of days now.  Hope that answers your questions!  We are very pleased with this unit.  The build quality is as good as it gets. It is more sophisticated than our previous models though, in that the unit is more "intelligent" (if I may say).  It will self-adjust to correct operator errors and prevent the unit from smoking (for instance, if loading door is closed too quickly).  It is impressive how clean it burns. Aside from that, it is a true central heater that will increase combustion and plenum temperature (and hence kick blower on) based on thermostatic demand.  This was not easy to achieve because smoke mainly occurs during these "transitions" between high and low burn.  But we got there.  It took us more time than we would have liked but there was no point in botching the job. The good side of this is that the unit has been burning  in our lab for a very long time.  It is rugged.  Beautiful fire through the glass door. Long burn times and good effficiency on all burn rates.  Extremely good value for something with that level of technology, especially for less than $3,000. Have a great fall everyone.



Congratulations, as you alluded to, the testing process is challenging.  Speaking with the EPA, I had a feeling it was close to being certified.  I also know that the EPA doesn't want to listen to us again, so they were making sure to dot their I's and cross their t's.  I see the test results now and will be interested in looking through them in detail.  Zeigler did the testing, and I know he learned a lot from us going through the process previously.


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## SBIMarc (Oct 9, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> Congratulations, as you alluded to, the testing process is challenging.  Speaking with the EPA, I had a feeling it was close to being certified.  I also know that the EPA doesn't want to listen to us again, so they were making sure to dot their I's and cross their t's.  I see the test results now and will be interested in looking through them in detail.  Zeigler did the testing, and I know he learned a lot from us going through the process previously.


Thank you.  Brian Z was a reviewer, but he did not do the testing himself.  Another one of his employees did, one based in Canada.  As you know, the test procedure is based on CSAB415.1-10 and I was Chairman of this standard. The Heat Commander was the 5th furnace we were certifying to that standard (with the EPA specific requirements added) and the Intertek employee who did it for us was probably at his 10th certification of a warm air furnace per B415.  So from a protocol standpoint, we were in our a comfort zone. It was still a challenge to get the emissions where they needed to be.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 9, 2020)

lampmfg said:


> I see the test results now


You must have access to something other than the publicly available database...


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## lampmfg (Oct 9, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> You must have access to something other than the publicly available database...


It's on their website. 
https://sbiweb.blob.core.windows.net/media/6187/heat_commander-sr-36_series-non-cbi.pdf


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## JRHAWK9 (Oct 9, 2020)

Being a skeptic in general and having an analytical personality, I browsed the owners manual for the Heat Commander and I noticed a couple things which potential users will probably want some clarification of, as they were confusing to me. 



SBIMarc said:


> The heat power is almost identical to the Caddy. It is a bigger unit though (physically). You will load more wood into it, which is nice.














The Caddy has a 3.6CF firebox, according to the brochure on your site which I screen captured above.  The Heat Commander has the same sized 3.6CF firebox according to the above screen capture of the specs found on Drolet's site.  How does one fit more wood into the same sized firebox?  Also, the Caddy shows a "maximum burn time" of 15 hours while the HC states 10 hours....for the same sized firebox....??

These are screen shots from the user manual:











It's a 3.6CF firebox with a max log length of 21" (again, according to the specs found in the manual), however owners manual states  you should always keep 4" of airspace in front of the logs. This means cutting wood to 17" max.  Then it also states when re-loading on a hot ember bed (a standard re-load during the dead of winter) to place logs N-S and then E-W...with air space between them.  This means one will have to have two different lengths of splits, one 17" long for the N-S and another shorter one for the E-W.  If one loads a 3.6CF firebox according to how the manuals states, one will be able to fit LESS wood inside than if you would pack it tight.  But yet you can "load more wood" into it compared to the Caddy..?  Very confusing.  Assume one CAN pack all 3.6CF of the HC firebox with wood, why the 5 hour less burn time when comparing it to the Caddy?  So, somehow one can load more wood in both 3.6CF fireboxes when the splits being loaded into the HC need to be spaced out vs not spaced out in the Caddy and it burns for less overall time producing "almost identical to the Caddy" heat power.  I can see the lower burn times, when loading according to the manual, as one would load less wood into the firebox when abiding by the proper spacing, but then you mention how one can "load more wood into it".  The whole thing is kinda confusing as the numbers just don't add up.  Can you clarify? 

As far as the proper spacing of the wood, most people will not do this, as most people will just throw some splits in the firebox, close the door and walk away.  Is this "always" when referenced in the owners manual to the front spacing and spacing of logs in general something that the EPA made you put in the manual?  Most people will not abide by the spacing of the logs and even the 4" spacing in front.  What would the consequences be of not abiding by these spacing requirements and simply filling the firebox up with ~3.6CF of firewood?  Improper or unsafe burn/combustion?  Reduced heat output?  Furnace damage and consequent warranty denial?  This would be very important to me as a consumer to know before purchasing, as there would be no way I would be loading according to the manual.



SBIMarc said:


> The good side of this is that the unit has been burning in our lab for a very long time. It is rugged.



This is good to hear, however, if I am reading the owners manual correctly, why only a 2 year warranty on the firebox?  If this is the case, no offense, this is a joke.  Maybe this aligns with industry standards, but it sure seems short.


----------



## SBIMarc (Oct 9, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Being a skeptic in general and having an analytical personality, I browsed the owners manual for the Heat Commander and I noticed a couple things which potential users will probably want some clarification of, as they were confusing to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You like to analyze stuff, that's for sure!  Do you work in the industry?  I would be happy to know more about your background and what you do. Would you like to organize a call to discuss the unit in more details?  Let me know I will be glad to organize something. We can even set-up a videoconference. Back to some of your questions. As a manufacturer, we need to offer a loading procedure that is as close as possible (if not identical) to what we feel will produce the best results as per our certification.  If you have read my comments in the e-mail thread above, the furnace is really designed to minimize smoke in a multitude of loading configurations and procedures.  Any way you load the unit, we know it will be perfectly safe and durable.  As for the warranty, it is limited lifetime. Perhaps you have seen the line on "firebox components".  This is indeed two years.  But the 2 years is not for the box itself. Again, great product. Can't wait to get feedback from the field, and perhaps have a chance to talk to you in person!


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## JRHAWK9 (Oct 9, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> You like to analyze stuff, that's for sure!  Do you work in the industry?  I would be happy to know more about your background and what you do. Would you like to organize a call to discuss the unit in more details?  Let me know I will be glad to organize something. We can even set-up a videoconference. Back to some of your questions. As a manufacturer, we need to offer a loading procedure that is as close as possible (if not identical) to what we feel will produce the best results as per our certification.  If you have read my comments in the e-mail thread above, the furnace is really designed to minimize smoke in a multitude of loading configurations and procedures.  Any way you load the unit, we know it will be perfectly safe and durable.  As for the warranty, it is limited lifetime. Perhaps you have seen the line on "firebox components".  This is indeed two years.  But the 2 years is not for the box itself. Again, great product. Can't wait to get feedback from the field, and perhaps have a chance to talk to you in person!



Nope, I'm not in the industry.  I'm an engineer/CAD/GIS guy though, so the schooling kind of conditioned me into the (over)analyzing of everything.    

The questions I posted were just out of my own curiosity, but were more aimed to help those who may be in the market for a furnace.  So any answering of questions would be best served in public space in order to inform everybody.   I'm not in the market for one as I'm happy with my current setup.


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## SBIMarc (Oct 9, 2020)

JRHAWK9 said:


> Nope, I'm not in the industry.  I'm an engineer/CAD/GIS guy though, so the schooling kind of conditioned me into the (over)analyzing of everything.
> 
> The questions I posted were just out of my own curiosity, but were more aimed to help those who may be in the market for a furnace.  So any answering of questions would be best served in public space in order to inform everybody.   I'm not in the market for one as I'm happy with my current setup.


Fair enough. But my offer still stands. If you want to help the public, I will be happy to set-up a videoconference with our team. You can even ask questions to the engineers who have developed the product.  For us, it will be a chance to get to know you, learn a bit more about yourself and your background, and answer questions in a much more efficient way.  This knowlege will in turn help you with any question that others may post on this forum.


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## sloeffle (Oct 12, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Fair enough. But my offer still stands. If you want to help the public, I will be happy to set-up a videoconference with our team. You can even ask questions to the engineers who have developed the product.  For us, it will be a chance to get to know you, learn a bit more about yourself and your background, and answer questions in a much more efficient way.  This knowlege will in turn help you with any question that others may post on this forum.


@JRHAWK9 you should work with SBI on a JRHAWK branded line of furnaces. The first one should be named JRHAWK5000.


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## trx250r87 (Oct 12, 2020)

@SBIMarc 

I would love to provide feedback or demo a new furnace if the opportunity exists! I reside in Northern Wisconsin and I have one of the original Tundra's (serial #377) that has all the factory updates installed by myself. I also have a degree in electronics if that helps in any way. Please reach out if interested!

Eric


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## SBIMarc (Oct 12, 2020)

trx250r87 said:


> @SBIMarc
> 
> I would love to provide feedback or demo a new furnace if the opportunity exists! I reside in Northern Wisconsin and I have one of the original Tundra's (serial #377) that has all the factory updates installed by myself. I also have a degree in electronics if that helps in any way. Please reach out if interested!
> 
> Eric


Thanks Eric.  Noted with thanks!  I will inquire to our team as to when our trial period will start with the "connected" Heat Commander. I have a couple of people on my list and you are one of them. Thanks for your interest. Marc


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## SBIMarc (Oct 14, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Thanks Eric.  Noted with thanks!  I will inquire to our team as to when our trial period will start with the "connected" Heat Commander. I have a couple of people on my list and you are one of them. Thanks for your interest. Marc


Eric, I have more information about our connected furnace program. We have 4 units left.  If you are interested, please reach out to me at macantin@sbi-international.com   I will explain the details of the program.  Thanks!


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## laynes69 (Oct 14, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Eric, I have more information about our connected furnace program. We have 4 units left.  If you are interested, please reach out to me at macantin@sbi-international.com   I will explain the details of the program.  Thanks!


E-mail sent! I did try to send one out a while back...however it didn't send.


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## Mrpelletburner (Oct 14, 2020)

@SBIMarc - Will there be an introduction/promotion video released of this new unit? Perhaps providing an overview of operating?


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## SBIMarc (Oct 14, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> E-mail sent! I did try to send one out a while back...however it didn't send.


Got it!  I will follow up for sure.  Sincerely, Marc.


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## sloeffle (Oct 15, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Eric, I have more information about our connected furnace program. We have 4 units left.  If you are interested, please reach out to me at macantin@sbi-international.com   I will explain the details of the program.  Thanks!


I sent one too.


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## andym (Oct 16, 2020)

Just returned to the forum after a long summer absence. I am really excited to see SBI rolling out the new furnace. I bought a Heatmax 2 in April. I didn't want to wait for the new model cause I seriously doubted they would get it ready for fall, due to Covid and all. Now I almost wish I had waited! 
SBIMarc: are you offering any complimentary update packages for all previous units bought this year? Lol! Would such an 'update' or modification be possible? I see others had the same question.


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## SBIMarc (Oct 17, 2020)

andym said:


> Just returned to the forum after a long summer absence. I am really excited to see SBI rolling out the new furnace. I bought a Heatmax 2 in April. I didn't want to wait for the new model cause I seriously doubted they would get it ready for fall, due to Covid and all. Now I almost wish I had waited!
> SBIMarc: are you offering any complimentary update packages for all previous units bought this year? Lol! Would such an 'update' or modification be possible? I see others had the same question.


Hello!  I think you did the right thing to buy the Heatmax II.  We were far from certain that the Heat Commander would be ready on time.  I think you have a great unit.  We do not have any retrofit kit for the Heatmax II, but who knows what the future holds!  Thanks for your support.


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## andym (Oct 17, 2020)

SBIMarc said:


> Hello!  I think you did the right thing to buy the Heatmax II.  We were far from certain that the Heat Commander would be ready on time.  I think you have a great unit.  We do not have any retrofit kit for the Heatmax II, but who knows what the future holds!  Thanks for your support.


My heating season has just started. I'm still on a learning curve, but am loving it so far. The best thing SBI/MFP did to ensure customer satisfaction was to include a decent quality moisture meter. I never would have believed that my wood was too wet back in April, but the meter and furnace showed otherwise. Indeed 20% is not dry enough!


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## Hebner (Oct 21, 2020)

I see the MSRP jumped from $2799 yesterday to $3999 today.


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## brenndatomu (Oct 21, 2020)

Hebner said:


> I see the MSRP jumped from $2799 yesterday to $3999 today.


Still $2799 here...65 in stock now...








						HEAT COMMANDER WOOD FURNACE
					

Among the most efficient systems on the market based on distributed energy, the Heat Commander is a central heating system that is both cutting edge and accessible thanks to its innovative design and ease of use. EPA certified, its 310,000 BTU capacity




					myfireplaceproducts.com


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## Case1030 (Oct 21, 2020)

Hebner said:


> I see the MSRP jumped from $2799 yesterday to $3999 today.



Probably on the Canadian site (USD/CAD).


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## aswr (Nov 24, 2020)

installing a max caddy as we speak. Maybe i should have waited? always one step behind lol


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## usernametaken (Nov 25, 2020)

aswr said:


> installing a max caddy as we speak. Maybe i should have waited? always one step behind lol



If you required the output of a Max Caddy, wouldn't the Heat Commander be too small for your application? The Max Caddy can run up to 3500 square feet. Heat Commander is more in line with the standard Caddy at 2500 square feet on the high side if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with the Max Caddy though. I installed one last fall in my new home and am now on my second season with it. I am very impressed with it so far. Would I prefer a "smarter" "load and go" version that is also connected? Absolutely! However, I needed the larger output of the Max so I had to run what was the best fit for my home's size and layout (and was available at the time...) It does look like the Caddy line has two new furnaces en route as well. The Caddy Advanced and Caddy Advanced CR. I haven't seen anything on the web about them yet though...


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

got mine up and running. Still trying to figure the best way to run the max. it is an add on and the 2 furnaces are competing against each other a bit. When the house is calling for heat and the geo kicks in it dampers down the max. Not liking that and not making much sense. Hvac guy going to change it to not damper down the max when geo kicks in until it hit 2nd stage. We will try that and see how it goes. We set the plenum fan on temp at 130 and off at 100. Is that good for the unit? 
My father has the kuuma vf 100. It is interesting to compare the 2 units. I do like the load and go of the vf100 better and how it tries to maintain the gasing all the time. (If kuuma would csa cert i probably would have installed one of those. But because canada is not important to them, they don't.)  (The add on cert of the max was definitely a plus and easier to install on my house, I am not sure if the max is doing that.) Hard to tell even looking  through the door. When she is good and hot with the damper open and then dampers down i see the gasses burning but then shortly after it seems to stop. Not sure if that the way she runs or not. New to me. any advice on how to set up the max is appreciated.


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

It's less than ideal to have two furnaces sharing ductwork AND running at the same time. Different static pressure will cause premature wear on the blowers if they are competing with one another. You'll also pull air backwards through the return when one furnace isn't running. I have mine set up with isolation dampers and an interlock. Flip the switch one way and the damper to the LP furnace / AC closes and the caddy is run by the home thermostats. Click it the other way and the Caddy is offline, it's damper closes and the LP furnace gets the signal. As to the intake damper on the Max Caddy, I agree. When it closes and your cruising, the secondaries die off fairly quickly and even a new call for heat 30 minutes later opening the damper back up doesn't bring them back. Now you have a slow burn until reload. For this reason, I'm considering pulling off my fresh air kit and doing a paper clip mod to prevent the intake damper from completely closing. I'd rather have the furnace making a little more heat than the stats are calling for than having it march slowly through the second half of the burn because the damper killed the fire when it was peaking. Lastly on your KIP, I would go a bit higher. If you want your blower fan speed to kick up, you need decent sustained plenum temps. I found that 135/115 works well for me. The higher you let it go before kicking in, the quicker you will get a high sustained plenum temp in my experience. It usually takes 45 minutes plus after a reload to be raging enough to sustain over 140 and then the next 30 minutes as your blower creeps up, you'll finally push 160 and get to speed 6. At that point, your house will start to gain temp as fast as a fossil fuel furnace. Anyways, I fought to tune this appliance last year and have it pretty dialed in so feel free to PM me any time with questions.


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> It's less than ideal to have two furnaces sharing ductwork AND running at the same time. Different static pressure will cause premature wear on the blowers if they are competing with one another. You'll also pull air backwards through the return when one furnace isn't running. I have mine set up with isolation dampers and an interlock. Flip the switch one way and the damper to the LP furnace / AC closes and the caddy is run by the home thermostats. Click it the other way and the Caddy is offline, it's damper closes and the LP furnace gets the signal. As to the intake damper on the Max Caddy, I agree. When it closes and your cruising, the secondaries die off fairly quickly and even a new call for heat 30 minutes later opening the damper back up doesn't bring them back. Now you have a slow burn until reload. For this reason, I'm considering pulling off my fresh air kit and doing a paper clip mod to prevent the intake damper from completely closing.


only one fan runs them both


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## brenndatomu (Dec 19, 2020)

aswr said:


> it is an add on and the 2 furnaces are competing against each other a bit. When the house is calling for heat and the geo kicks in it dampers down the max. Not liking that and not making much sense. Hvac guy going to change it to not damper down the max when geo kicks in until it hit 2nd stage.


Turn the geo tstat down so that if it does kick in, its toward the end of the burn on the Max...that way Max carries most of the load and you don't have to worry so much about overheating the Max...sounds like HVAC guy needs to rework some things for sure.


aswr said:


> We set the plenum fan on temp at 130 and off at 100. Is that good for the unit?


Should be fine.


aswr said:


> (If kuuma would csa cert i probably would have installed one of those. But because canada is not important to them, they don't.)


I don't know that they don't care about the Canadian market...more like they have their hands full getting things certified for their home market, what with the new 2020 certs required this year...EPA red tape nightmare it sounds like...heck, they still don't have their smaller VF200 certified yet! Plus all this testing is very expensive for a small family owned business, especially all at once!


aswr said:


> When she is good and hot with the damper open and then dampers down i see the gasses burning but then shortly after it seems to stop


If that is happening in the early part of the burn (after the firebox is up to temp) then it sounds like the wood is not quite dry enough yet...secondary burn should self sustain once this are good and hot...at least until the wood is done gassing off and the cellulose starts to burn up more so (not going to have much secondary burn after 2, 3, maybe 4 hours (on a huge load)


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

aswr said:


> only one fan runs them both


when the geo is calling 4 heat it auto closes the max damper. We still use a common plenum and a common blower fan to circulate heat through the house


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Turn the geo tstat down so that if it does kick in, its toward the end of the burn on the Max...that was Max carries most of the load and you don't have to worry so much about overheating the Max...sounds like HVAC guy needs to rework some things for sure.
> 
> Should be fine.
> 
> ...


wood is normally 18 - 20 % mc. the vf 100 uses the same wood from the same pile. We share both.


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## laynes69 (Dec 19, 2020)

In canada, a parallel install is illegal so it should be installed in series. If theres an interlock then both shouldn't run at the same time. I'm with brenn, you need to stop the call for heat from the geothermal so only the woodfurnace supplies the heat.


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> In canada, a parallel install is illegal so it should be installed in series. If theres an interlock then both shouldn't run at the same time. I'm with brenn, you need to stop the call for heat from the geothermal so only the woodfurnace supplies the heat.


you are right, my mistake the unit is in series


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> In canada, a parallel install is illegal so it should be installed in series. If theres an interlock then both shouldn't run at the same time. I'm with brenn, you need to stop the call for heat from the geothermal so only the woodfurnace supplies the heat.


the geo temp is set to kick in lower than the max temp.  So when the max cant keep up the geo will kick in, usually at the beginning and end of the burn. It takes a long time for the max to increase the house temp after it drops a degree or two at wot. Once it gets there it will easily maintain temp without assistance. What should be the difference temp between the 2 units? 2 degree or 3?


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## laynes69 (Dec 19, 2020)

Our LP furnace is set at off.  I will tell you running with the damper open, you're throwing heat out the chimney. I'll wake up at 72 degrees, load the furnace and open the damper. In about 10 to 15 minutes later close the damper and it cruises with the house increasing.  Honestly it sounds like the house could use and/or insulating and sealing.


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> Our LP furnace is set at off.  I will tell you running with the damper open, you're throwing heat out the chimney. I'll wake up at 72 degrees, load the furnace and open the damper. In about 10 to 15 minutes later close the damper and it cruises with the house increasing.  Honestly it sounds like the house could use and/or insulating and sealing.


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

kind of hard to insulate?


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## andym (Dec 19, 2020)

aswr said:


> wood is normally 18 - 20 % mc. the vf 100 uses the same wood from the same pile. We share both.


In my limited experience with my Heatmax 2, 20% is plenty wet. 18% is alright but 15% is much better. You will struggle to keep secondaries burning at 20%. The reason (I stand to be corrected) the VF100 burns the same wood without issues is that its combustion is much more controlled. It has the ability to auto adjust the amount of air the fire receives. The new Drolet Heat Commander  (OP here)  also does this in a similar manner. That's why they are causing ripples of discontent among some of us with now outdated models! The older Caddys, Tundras, etc are either wide open draft or closed. Not the greatest system, but it works.


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## laynes69 (Dec 19, 2020)

aswr said:


> kind of hard to insulate?
> View attachment 269783


There's always improvements that can be done! Even airsealing will save alot of money. This is what I've dealt with over the years.

View attachment 269793


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> I will tell you running with the damper open, you're throwing heat out the chimney. the damper.



I wonder if the damper design difference between the Caddy and the Max is why we differ here. The Caddy has a hole in the damper door to allow some secondary air when cruising. The Max does not. I can tell you that when that damper is closed for any amount of time on the Max, it will hinder the burn and not keep the secondary burn going for long. When it reopens, the damage is done and you're not going to produce at a high level again until you reload. This is why I'm considering keeping it open just a hair so I get the same affect as the factory opening in your damper door.


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## laynes69 (Dec 19, 2020)

I use a paperclip to keep our damper open a hair. When its brutal cold, I don't need to use a clip because the damper cycles with the home. I can tell you from experience that the drier the wood the better.


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

Oh for sure. I'm at under 8% on my years supply in the basement. Last year (my first year here and poor supply due to building the house and having no dry storage) I was double or more. No bueno.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 19, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> This is why I'm considering keeping it open just a hair so I get the same affect as the factory opening in your damper door.


Does sound like the damper door needs to be cracked open a hair (paper clip trick)
Just so everybody is on the same page here...MC is checked by re-splitting the suspect wood and checking MC on the freshly exposed faces...pins with the grain, not across...and the wood should be be close to room temp too.
Checking the MC externally, especially on the end, means nothing.


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

Good tips brenn for those who don't know. It's nice when it's match light isn't it? I remember previous stoves that wood as dry as I have now would burn too quickly and I actually preferred wood that wasn't completely seasoned as it would give me the best overall performance. Modern appliances are a completely different story though.


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> I use a paperclip to keep our damper open a hair. When its brutal cold, I don't need to use a clip because the damper cycles with the home. I can tell you from experience that the drier the wood the better.


the max caddy damper has some sort of seal.  where would you install a paper clip? Just to make sure. The max has 2 inlets on the bottom side of the door for pilot air, at least i think that is what they are for?lol


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

The bottom two are for primary air. The damper is for secondary. If you bend a paper clip and place it between where the damper closes and the frame of the stove, it will hold the damper open just slightly.


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> There's always improvements that can be done! Even airsealing will save alot of money. This is what I've dealt with over the years.
> 
> View attachment 269793
> View attachment 269796


I have done all the doors and windows except the ones in the front. I havent had the courage to tackle those yet.


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

aswr said:


> I have done all the doors and windows except the ones in the front. I havent had the courage to tackle those yet.



How does your ductwork run? I found one of my biggest issues at first was much of my ductwork was under insulated being outside the building envelope. Foam insulating made an enormous difference in heat loss on the way to the registers.


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> How does your ductwork run? I found one of my biggest issues at first was much of my ductwork was under insulated being outside the building envelope. Foam insulating made an enormous difference in heat loss on the way to the registers.


duct work is not insulated at all


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> The bottom two are for primary air. The damper is for secondary. If you bend a paper clip and place it between where the damper closes and the frame of the stove, it will hold the damper open just slightly.


any one have a diagram showing how the fresh air moves through the furnace?


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## aswr (Dec 19, 2020)

aswr said:


> duct work is not insulated at all


duct work is inside the building completely


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## brenndatomu (Dec 19, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> The damper is for secondary.


Damper is primary air...I know of no wood furnaces that control secondary air...can only think of one stove that has any control of the secondary air...but even it is tied to the same linkage as the primary air, so no individual control.


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

I guess I read wrong brenn. I could have sworn it was secondary but being as knowledgeable as you are, I'm sure you're right. Thanks for setting me straight. Either way, I think I need to crack mine open a bit....


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## brenndatomu (Dec 19, 2020)

Don't get me wrong...I really don't know the air passages on a Max...but I am pretty sure the intake damper controls primary air...


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

When it comes to wood stoves/furnaces, I'd be my life on your facts sir... LOL


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## brenndatomu (Dec 19, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> When it comes to wood stoves/furnaces, I'd be my life on your facts sir... LOL


You give me too much credit...and I think you may have a gambling problem, or at least have a high risk tolerance!


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## usernametaken (Dec 19, 2020)

What's that pain I feel in my chest?? Wait... what did I say.... Uh oh.....


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## brenndatomu (Dec 19, 2020)

andym said:


> The reason (I stand to be corrected) the VF100 burns the same wood without issues is that its combustion is much more controlled.


No, you are right...monitored and actively controlled.


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## salecker (Dec 20, 2020)

aswr said:


> kind of hard to insulate?
> View attachment 269783


Adding insulation to the roof is easy enough,replace the windows with Quad pane units.You could reinsulate the walls but you would lose the pan abode look.
And what is that cool yellow thing taking up the driveway in the back?


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## Highbeam (Dec 20, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Damper is primary air...I know of no wood furnaces that control secondary air...can only think of one stove that has any control of the secondary air...but even it is tied to the same linkage as the primary air, so no individual control.



The one woodstove that controlled secondary air with a linkage no longer does that, it switched to a barometric system with the 2020 regs. There are at least a few stoves with variable secondary air supplies but I don’t think any are user controlled. They all use bimetallic coils or draft strength devices. The theory being that you don’t want much secondary air unless the fire is chooching hard.


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## aswr (Dec 20, 2020)

salecker said:


> Adding insulation to the roof is easy enough,replace the windows with Quad pane units.You could reinsulate the walls but you would lose the pan abode look.
> And what is that cool yellow thing taking up the driveway in the back?


roof actually has been done. The cool yellow thing is a underground long hole drill


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## aswr (Dec 20, 2020)

laynes69 said:


> I use a paperclip to keep our damper open a hair. When its brutal cold, I don't need to use a clip because the damper cycles with the home. I can tell you from experience that the drier the wood the better.


thanks opened up the damper a hair and turned the t stat  down and now she gasses like she should.


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## aswr (Dec 20, 2020)

salecker said:


> Adding insulation to the roof is easy enough,replace the windows with Quad pane units.You could reinsulate the walls but you would lose the pan abode look.
> And what is that cool yellow thing taking up the driveway in the back?


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## usernametaken (Dec 20, 2020)

aswr said:


> thanks opened up the damper a hair and turned the t stat  down and now she gasses like she should.



Good to hear! That give me inspiration to do mine. I would have it done already but I have a outside air kit that covers the damper and I don't want to disassemble it hot. It's supposed to be in the low 50's on Christmas so maybe I'll pull it apart then. What did you use to hold yours open... the paper clip hack?


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## aswr (Dec 20, 2020)

i


usernametaken said:


> Good to hear! That give me inspiration to do mine. I would have it done already but I have a outside air kit that covers the damper and I don't want to disassemble it hot. It's supposed to be in the low 50's on Christmas so maybe I'll pull it apart then. What did you use to hold yours open... the paper clip hack?


i just adjusted the chain a bit to open it up a hair.  as per instructions load the furnace  turn the t stat to call for heat for 10 min and then turn t stat off  so it doesnt call for heat.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 20, 2020)

aswr said:


> i
> 
> i just adjusted the chain a bit to open it up a hair.  as per instructions load the furnace  turn the t stat to call for heat for 10 min and then turn t stat off  so it doesnt call for heat.


Bette watch that like a hawk...adjusting the chain is probably too much...it only takes a very small amount to do the trick...and even then sometimes needs to be undone when its really cold out (stronger draft for some) and you are loading the firebox clear full...things can get really hot really fast if given too much air.
Somewhere here I seen someone had replaced their chain (or a portion of the chain) with a small turnbuckle...infinitely adjustable! 
Actually, one of the slickest mods I've seen is when the Amish replace the damper motor with a bimetallic spring...that worked surprisingly well! (those "non-electric" units are set up to gravity heat too)


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## usernametaken (Dec 20, 2020)

I think he might be OK with it. When it's super cold, my damper never closes anyways. As long as there is a call for heat, the damper is open... which can be indefinitely when the temps are in the single digits. I remember the micro turnbuckle ideas too. I think a member posted pics in my original fine tuning thread when I started here...


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## aswr (Dec 20, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Bette watch that like a hawk...adjusting the chain is probably too much...it only takes a very small amount to do the trick...and even then sometimes needs to be undone when its really cold out (stronger draft for some) and you are loading the firebox clear full...things can get really hot really fast if given too much air.
> Somewhere here I seen someone had replaced their chain (or a portion of the chain) with a small turnbuckle...infinitely adjustable!
> Actually, one of the slickest mods I've seen is when the Amish replace the damper motor with a bimetallic spring...that worked surprisingly well! (those "non-electric" units are set up to gravity heat too)


when I say a bit i mean a little bit. no more than the width of a paper clip


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## aswr (Dec 20, 2020)

aswr said:


> when I say a bit i mean a little bit. no more than the width of a paper clip


i just turned it a little to open it up. I didn't cut a link or anything drastic like that.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 20, 2020)

aswr said:


> when I say a bit i mean a little bit. no more than the width of a paper clip


Gotcha...thought maybe it was 1 chain link...


usernametaken said:


> When it's super cold, my damper never closes anyways.


Good point...and exactly why the "temp controller" mod came about...because "super heating" your chimney for 2 hours is stoopid


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## usernametaken (Dec 20, 2020)

I'm just not seeing that high of plenum temps without it open... This is why I need to try the clip mod to see if secondaries alone can keep me over 140 and keep the blower on a higher setting. As per factory setup, you'll never see blower speed 2-6 with the damper closed no matter how perfect your draft or dry your wood is.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 20, 2020)

Yeah it seems like the Max is just a different animal that the Tundra for sure...I never once saw plenum temps at 140 with it...120 was more typical...maybe 125.


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## usernametaken (Dec 20, 2020)

Max needs a minimum sustained 140 plenum temp to kick the blower above speed 1. 150-160 is ideal and will keep you at speeds 4-6 for a while and really make some heat. Speed 1 is fine for a 30 degree day when you are just maintaining. However, if you wake up in the single digits and the temp has dropped inside overnight,  you'll need some recovery and speed 1 won't do much.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 20, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> 150-160 is ideal and will keep you at speeds 4-6 for a while and really make some heat.


I bet!


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## usernametaken (Dec 20, 2020)

What are fossil fuel plenum temps? Must be higher than that. I'm not an engineer but PSG seems to think that's the most efficient temp and have dialed it in there. Most of the guys I talked to there don't even want the KIP lower than 135.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 20, 2020)

I can't use that much heat...this house is only ~3000 sq ft...and that's if I include the basement...insulation has improved from "poor" to average in the time that I have owned it...and soon to be "above average" after I complete the attic insulation upgrade here soon.
Not doing that so much for the heating season (the VF100 is almost "too much" in warmer winter weather as it is now) but more so for improved comfort of the upstairs in hot weather...


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## brenndatomu (Dec 20, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> What are fossil fuel plenum temps? Must be higher than that. I'm not an engineer but PSG seems to think that's the most efficient temp and have dialed it in there. Most of the guys I talked to there don't even want the KIP lower than 135.


My oil furnace will creep its way up to 135* max if it runs for a long time (like if I allow it to run after the whole house is 4-5* less than our normal indoor temp)


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## usernametaken (Dec 20, 2020)

Yep, we are at 3500 sq/ft not including the basement. On really cold mornings, I leave the basement door open to get a boost in the first floor. That way I turn/close down the 1st floor zone/thermostat and send all the ducted heat to the 2nd floor and bonus room over the garage. That also ups my static pressure and allows my plenum temp to rise increasing the blower speed. Having a zoned system has it's benefits for sure but it doesn't allow me to precisely control static pressure. However, I have found a zone controller online that also controls static pressure. It adjusts your zone dampers so that the more that are open, the less they open to keep ideal static pressure. It's on the long term upgrade list but someday it will get done....

I'm surprised at your oil plenum temps. My LP has to be hotter than that based on my unscientific testing...


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## JRHAWK9 (Dec 20, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> I'm surprised at your oil plenum temps. My LP has to be hotter than that based on my unscientific testing...



I have a 75KBTU LP furnace.  A couple years ago I checked my dT on different speed taps when I had just the LP running and with the Kuuma blower running.  Wanted to check dT to make sure I'm within spec of the data tag on the furnace and wanted to use the slowest speed tap of I could and still be within spec.

I'm using the LOW speed tap on my LP furnace, I saw a dT of 48° after 15 minutes of running.  75° in and 123° out.


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## aswr (Dec 20, 2020)

usernametaken said:


> I'm just not seeing that high of plenum temps without it open... This is why I need to try the clip mod to see if secondaries alone can keep me over 140 and keep the blower on a higher setting. As per factory setup, you'll never see blower speed 2-6 with the damper closed no matter how perfect your draft or dry your wood is.


my fan come on at 130 and off at 100. fan seems to run all day


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## usernametaken (Dec 21, 2020)

Your fan runs constantly with the damper closed when there isn't a call for heat? Mine will cycle but not stay on constantly and that might be because you have your KOP lower. However, moving air that cool on speed 1 through hundreds of feet of ducting is not very productive in my situation.


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## salecker (Dec 21, 2020)

aswr said:


> roof actually has been done. The cool yellow thing is a underground long hole drill


How much r value do you have in the roof? Looks kinda thin.My roof is R100 for 75% and R80 for the rest.I have parallel cord trusses for my vaulted cieling,they are 3' thick and full of batt insulation 12/12 pitch
Is the drill for straight down ,or is it a guide able one?
Thanks


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## brenndatomu (Dec 21, 2020)

salecker said:


> Is the drill for straight down ,or is it a guide able one?


My guess is that its a horizontal drill...hence the name "longhole", instead of "deephole"


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