# How to deal with thick ice



## SpaceBus (Jan 21, 2019)

My parking area and driveway, not to mention the plowed dirt road connecting my driveway to the paved road, is covered in inches of ice after yesterday's storm. We managed to keep the snow cleared, but then the rain came. What do I do now? I've never had to deal with this much ice before, and it's not going to go away on its own. If we had gotten the 1-3" of forecasted snow, this wouldn't have been an issue, but we didn't get the snow all morning like forecasted. We currently have about 1,500 lbs of sand and 125 lbs of salt and a 500,000 btu propane torch and some shovels. I know, not the best gear, but we are working on it. A tractor is happening soon, but it probably won't be for a few more weeks.

Please, we need some advice! 

Thank you!


----------



## PaulOinMA (Jan 21, 2019)

What's your forecast for Wednesday and Thursday.  Much warmer here. I have an ice scraper/chopper.  I would be able to separate large sheets of ice from the driveway and chop them up as soon as it warmed up a little and the ice started to separate from the driveway.

Pretty funny …

Neighbors used to have two large, longhair German shepherds.  Thor, the male, was 110 pounds or so.  His father was 130.  There was an electric fence in their yard.  However, the fence wouldn't work when the dogs had their thick winter coat and we had a thick snow pack on the ground getting them away from the wire in the ground.*

Thor loved to come over and play with me. Especially loved running and fetching kindling, if I was outside cutting wood.

I was outside on a sheet of ice on the driveway trying working on getting rid of it.  Thor came racing down the driveway, a slight incline towards me.

I had time to think, "this isn't going to end well!"

He ran full speed and started skidding on the ice.    Hit me full force, straight on, and took my legs out from under me like a football tackle.

I'm laying on the ground and he's jumping on me with "let's play!"

I'm thinking I just want to lie there for a minute or two. 

*  The neighbors turned the fence way up.  There was a wire by the house to keep the dogs away from plantings.  The fence was turned up so high that there was now a room in the corner of the house by the plants that Thor wouldn't go into.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 21, 2019)

PaulOinMA said:


> What's your forecast for Wednesday and Thursday.  Much warmer here. I have an ice scraper/chopper.  I would be able to separate large sheets of ice from the driveway and chop them up as soon as it warmed up a little and the ice started to separate from the driveway.
> 
> Pretty funny …
> 
> ...



We have a male GSD, but he's lanky and only 75 lbs. He loves this weather, but finds the ice too slick. 

It's not going to warm up here until probably March. We are trying to find someone with a spreader since a plow will do nothing. Is there some sort of raking attachment for a tractor that could break this ice?


----------



## PaulOinMA (Jan 21, 2019)

I was also thinking that the best way to deal with thick ice is called April.


----------



## bholler (Jan 21, 2019)

Just lay down a layer of sand on top for traction and leave it.  I put down 250 lbs of salt and still have tons of ice.  I'm going to spread sand today unless I can get a load of coal ash.  That works really well


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 21, 2019)

bholler said:


> Just lay down a layer of sand on top for traction and leave it.  I put down 250 lbs of salt and still have tons of ice.  I'm going to spread sand today unless I can get a load of coal ash.  That works really well



I figured the best bet is sand and ash. I have several gallons of wood ash we can spread as well, but all of my sand froze solid unfortunately. I might pick up more sand tomorrow since my Dually with MT's can still get out.


----------



## bholler (Jan 21, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I figured the best bet is sand and ash. I have several gallons of wood ash we can spread as well, but all of my sand froze solid unfortunately. I might pick up more sand tomorrow since my Dually with MT's can still get out.


Yeah I have some buckets of sand in the shop unfrozen.


----------



## zrock (Jan 21, 2019)

Mix your sand and salt together and lit it sit a day or 2 then spread the mixture.. You could also contact your local HWY department and see if they would give your drive a sanding for a few $$ or find a local contractor that has a small sand unit


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 21, 2019)

Whenever the roads clear up we are going to the town office to find out how to get the sand and/or sand salt mix. We weren't expecting this kind of ice, it doesn't usually rain or have ice like this in January here, at least that's what the locals say. I also didn't know my sand would freeze into 70 lb bricks, and that has put a damper on things. Our town is technically split in half on either side of a body of water with no bridge, so it's a pain to get to the other side of town when the weather is nice, which is why we haven't been to the town office yet. I knew our first winter would be hard, but this is harder than I expected. A tractor is happening as soon as I am able to make it happen.


----------



## blades (Jan 21, 2019)

If you are looking to bust it up Calcium Chloride will work muck better than standard salt, a ta price of course.  There are various mixes of calcium/salt available. straight salt is only good down to apx 15 deg F. calcium chloride will go to the -5F or perhaps more ( i forget all the numbers)  There are various acetates the will work also.  When I was in the plowing business I had several different materials on hand to chose from depending on conditions, or if customers had pets and the like. Ice control has gotten to be a science in itself.  One of the later developments is Beet Juice. some items like straight salt need the sun to start working others like the various chlorides do not.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 21, 2019)

blades said:


> If you are looking to bust it up Calcium Chloride will work muck better than standard salt, a ta price of course.  There are various mixes of calcium/salt available. straight salt is only good down to apx 15 deg F. calcium chloride will go to the -5F or perhaps more ( i forget all the numbers)  There are various acetates the will work also.  When I was in the plowing business I had several different materials on hand to chose from depending on conditions, or if customers had pets and the like. Ice control has gotten to be a science in itself.  One of the later developments is Beet Juice. some items like straight salt need the sun to start working others like the various chlorides do not.




Beet juice is surprising, I don't know where we would even get that. The local hardware store sells all of the ice melting materials, but in bags for a person with a 25' paved drive. We have probably 200'+ of gravel driveway leading to a gravel road (which is of little consequence if we can navigate the driveway). Where do you get large quantities of ice melting materials? I can't imagine snow removal professionals buy it in bags from the store.

My wife thinks the world is ending, but I could get my truck to the road if needed. Her car isn't going anywhere, even though it has good tires. Ultimately the road is iced over, so we would rather avoid travel today entirely. I'm definitely investing in some chains for the truck, but they won't fit on her car. A beater is happening next winter as well.

The paved road is a total wreck, I'll get some photos of the driveway next time I go out.


----------



## paulnlee (Jan 21, 2019)

Ice skates will work, good exercise also


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 21, 2019)

Lot to be said for a car with studded snow tires on all four wheels mounted on a set of junkyard rims. They will drive you nuts on pavement but when push comes to shove hard to beat.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 21, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Lot to be said for a car with studded snow tires on all four wheels mounted on set on set of junkyard rims. They will drive you nuts on pavement but when push comes to shove hard to beat.



Ha, we were really torn on studs, I wish I had done it now!


----------



## semipro (Jan 21, 2019)

Its actually pretty amazing what just a little ash can do for traction.  Even a light coat works well.


----------



## Hogwildz (Jan 22, 2019)

Find a neighbor that burns coal, and ask if you can have some of his coal ash great stuff for icy roads.


----------



## Wooden Head (Jan 22, 2019)

For melting look for Peladow or Dowflake. These are calcium chloride. Peladow is pellets and Dowflake is a calcium chloride flake. I like the flake because it is easier to spread. A little goes a long way. C.C. works to about -15 while salt is effective to about +20.
For traction sand is great but it must be kept dry when stored. Otherwise, sandcubes. Anything dark like ash spread when sunny is a good natural thawing agent.


----------



## festerw (Jan 22, 2019)

You'd need a lot of product to melt that much ice.  I've been through the same and on dirt chlorides don't do as well as on pavement.  Since there's not a non porous surface the brine just soaks into the dirt and stops working as well.

Best cost effective option is to sand it, if you can find some coarse sand that works even better.  Once the sun comes out you'll get pock marks in the ice and it'll start to break up.  The sand helps make the ice "dirty" so the sun will melt it faster.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jan 22, 2019)

Good time to put down a thin layer of 1b Stone. Wont take much and at all to bring traction back. 1b is a great top coat on any gravel road. Sand works too but 1B is so much cheaper and wont wash away like sand.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jan 22, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Where do you get large quantities of ice melting materials? I can't imagine snow removal professionals buy it in bags from the store.
> 
> My wife thinks the world is ending,....



1. Google "sand & gravel". If you got a pickup you can ask how much they get for a yard. I usually line the bed with a tarp and stand up a 4'x4' piece of ply wood vertically against the back window, another 4'x4' piece held 45deg inside the tailgate. That's cause my bed is only 6.5' and the Bobcat guy will usually spill a bunch over the tailgate.

2. I got a set of studded WinterForce tires mounted on steel from TireRack. Got me 12 seasons on three different cars. Loved 'em.


----------



## Poindexter (Jan 22, 2019)

My inclination would be to look at tire chains first.  

It _sounds like_ this is a transitory problem and most of the time regular winter tires are adequate for OP's needs.

I do run studs on a second set of rims, but I take call for my local hospital, 1 night in 4 and 1 weekend in 4. Taking an extra 30 minutes to respond to a call because I have to chain up isn't an option for me.  OTOH I feel it in my wallet two ways when operating studded tires on well plowed asphalt.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 22, 2019)

Poindexter said:


> My inclination would be to look at tire chains first.
> 
> It _sounds like_ this is a transitory problem and most of the time regular winter tires are adequate for OP's needs.
> 
> I do run studs on a second set of rims, but I take call for my local hospital, 1 night in 4 and 1 weekend in 4. Taking an extra 30 minutes to respond to a call because I have to chain up isn't an option for me.  OTOH I feel it in my wallet two ways when operating studded tires on well plowed asphalt.



Wife's car won't do chains, but we do have a spare set of wheels in NC we are picking up this summer. The dealer I ordered her wheels from for some reason sent us a second set about a month after we moved away from NC. luckily my old land lord snagged them up for me for safe keeping. I'm going to put studded tires on this set of wheels and put them on before storms. Until now her Firestone winter tires have been great. I have a set of Yokohama MTs on my Dually that did just fine on the ice. They aren't really meant for it but they got the job done.


----------



## mustash29 (Jan 23, 2019)

I work at a power plant.  We maintain our areas with two F-250's with fisher 8' plows and a Fisher poly sander.  We get our salt / sand mix from a local sand and gravel company in 20 ton loads.  I can't recall the actual price but it is not that bad, cheaper than topsoil or gravel IIRC, so something like $15-20 per yard.

I have 110' of paved driveway that is one lane wide at the road but 3 lanes wide at the bottom.  It has a 10% grade so any amount of ice is super bad because the garage is at the bottom end of the "ski slope."  Ice melts destroy the pavement.  Sand destroys my hardwood floors because the dogs will track it inside.

My GF had surgery on Thurs.  I had to work Sat & Sun so her sis came over to help out.  Neither one of them was capable of shoveling the slush off by hand and neither of them felt safe using the JD tractor & plow.  Sis was able to scrape a dozen diagonal paths across the driveway that were one shovel width wide.  By the time I got home from work Sun evening everything had frozen over, but I had some dry patches to get enough traction so as to not go sliding into the other vehicles and garage doors.  Even with the cold temps Mon & Tues the sun was able to hit those clean spots and evaporate most of it.  90% bare pavement already.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 23, 2019)

More than few folks with dirt driveways intentionally keep them iced up as the alternative is worse. My friend has a dirt driveway on clay and he intentionally drives on top of the snow to pack it down for the first few storms and only then does he plow the driveway. If he takes it down to dirt if there is warmup (forecasted for tomorrow) it just ruts up and then freezes. . 

If this is your first winter in Maine you will soon learn about the 5th season which is mud season.


----------



## semipro (Jan 23, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> 5th season which is mud season.


Which was our whole 2018 in Virginia with about 50% more rain than usual.  

I never try to remove ice on our gravel driveway.  It makes too much of a mess.  Gravel spread over the ice quickly gets embedded and works great for traction.  I will remove snow but not at the expense of removing the gravel underneath.


----------



## PaulOinMA (Jan 23, 2019)

Driveway is paved here.  Ice layer easily separated from the pavement yesterday, and I was able to shovel it off to the sides.  Just a little more to do today.

My wife walked out to meet a UPS driver at the end of the day yesterday.  He said "thank you" for doing the driveway, and I get a gold star.    Looked like mine was the only driveway down to pavement yesterday when I was running errands.  Think folks here are waiting for the thaw today and tomorrow.


----------



## PaulOinMA (Jan 23, 2019)

semipro said:


> … I will remove snow but not at the expense of removing the gravel underneath.



Friend in Colchester CT wanted to have his driveway done 20+ years ago, and didn't want regular asphalt.  I told him that I saw a macadam driveway on This Old House, and the guy was from RI.

http://www.larrytorti.com/projo-1993.htm.

My friend told his snow plow guy that it was macadam.  Didn't matter that he told him.  A lot was pushed to the end of the driveway.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 23, 2019)

Commercial grade snowblowers have adjustable skids that can be adjusted quite high for gravel driveways. I picked up a used Honda 1132 hydrostatic rig that had been used a lot on gravel driveways and the skids were set for a 2 inch gap. The impeller chamber had a steel patch welded on it where the gravel was chewing through the metal. The price was right but a hint is to avoid buying used snowblowers that were used on unpaved driveways as they tend to get worn out due to gravel and rocks running through the works.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 23, 2019)

Forget about trying to get rid of it.

I would first right away find a contractor with a salt/sand spreader and bite the bullet & pay him to sand your driveway. It shouldn't cost all that much - he'd likely just back in & drive back out, laying it down both ways. There should be someone around that can do that? The municipality should handle the road - they might have contact info for someone who could do your drive. They might even back in with a truck on the way by if you talk (plead?) nice to them - but that might be way too optimistic hope.

After that, use your wood ashes to hit the slippery spots as they show up or develop. That will make your ashes go further. Ashes work really good for this. Until you run out of them. Make sure you have a decent mat inside the door - they can get tracked inside. But if you go light on them for a ways outside your door, most should get tracked off there before coming inside.

Something else to do, is spread out some salt on top of your frozen sand. After it works/melts for a while you should be able to dig out or scrape off some sand/salt mix, and spread that around too. Repeat over time. Next year, if you mix some salt in with some sand, it shouldn't freeze solid. You could make a covered wood box maybe halfway down your driveway somewhere & load it up with a sand/salt mix before winter, to have ready for use when you need it. That would require shovel work though - even better would be a spreader on the back of your new tractor. But then you would need to manage filling it. And also would need to keep in mind the corrosiveness of salt. But a bit of sand can go a long way here - one spreader full might last you the whole winter, depending on conditions & spreader capacity.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> More than few folks with dirt driveways intentionally keep them iced up as the alternative is worse. My friend has a dirt driveway on clay and he intentionally drives on top of the snow to pack it down for the first few storms and only then does he plow the driveway. If he takes it down to dirt if there is warmup (forecasted for tomorrow) it just ruts up and then freezes. .
> 
> If this is your first winter in Maine you will soon learn about the 5th season which is mud season.



So I've heard. I would like to pick up a load of sand before that happens.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 23, 2019)

Sand doesnt work well for mud season and plenty of folks with a pit will gladly sell it as its not of much use. Even crushed gravel doesnt work that well unless its put down thick. About the only thing that works in mud season is crushed rock and even that sinks out of sight into the mud after a while. It works pretty well long term if there is geotextile under it as the geotextile keeps the clay from working up into the rock. Most folks just get to the point where their driveway is impassable and dump in the rock. There is an art to building a good year round driveway in an area with deep frost and few homeowners (and small towns) have the money to spend to put in a permanent one that is going to last. Vermont's approach is put up with mud season and not pave the roads so they can regrade the roads after the damage is done in the spring.


----------



## semipro (Jan 23, 2019)

Not to be a wet blanket but... salt is showing up increasingly in our drinking water supplies in amounts that affect health and taste.  In a study in New Hampshire they found that about 50% of it was being used for deicing private properties and parking lots.  The amount used by DOTs on roads was far less. The rest came from water softening systems.  

In 20 years on our rural property with winter weather on a difficult, sloped, driveway we've never resorted to using chemical deicers.  Suitable vehicles and tires coupled with mechanical snow removal and aggregate application has worked for us.

That said, we have gotten stuck a few times and once whacked a nearby tree but I figure that's the price of country living.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Forget about trying to get rid of it.
> 
> I would first right away find a contractor with a salt/sand spreader and bite the bullet & pay him to sand your driveway. It shouldn't cost all that much - he'd likely just back in & drive back out, laying it down both ways. There should be someone around that can do that? The municipality should handle the road - they might have contact info for someone who could do your drive. They might even back in with a truck on the way by if you talk (plead?) nice to them - but that might be way too optimistic hope.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice! We did manage to thaw some sand and we filled a few large Rubbermaid bins with sand and then added five pounds of salt to each. Some of my sand didn't freeze solid and we were able to spread it and that helped immensely. I'm saving up my bucket of wood ash until it's full, but that's only one more ash pan from the stove. 
As far as the tractor, that will happen in a week or two. I was thinking about putting the spreader on my truck so I can keep the front loader and rear snowblower on the tractor at all times during the winter. I also plan on building a lean to or some kind of covered area for loads of sand and salt. 

Can you really just cover up the sand pile with salt to keep it from freezing? Supposedly our town provides some kind of sand and/or sand salt mix, but I have no idea where. I'm going to try and find out today. 

The wife is losing her will to live here, but I keep trying to explain that next winter won't be so bad since we will be prepared. We just didn't have enough time. Our house took three months to close and the bank told us we had to take occupancy within 30 days. That put us at Nov 2nd, the day we moved in.

I love it here, but my wife thinks it's making my blood disorder worse, but it's not, it's just doing the same thing it did when I was stationed at Fort Bragg after I got back from Afghanistan when it all started. Actually she is the one that wanted to move here, I had never even been to New England until this past summer. I'm glad she brought me here, but the winter gives her regrets. After the tractor is parked next to the house, I think she will feel better.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 23, 2019)

I would only use enough salt to keep stored sand from freezing solid


----------



## semipro (Jan 23, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> About the only thing that works in mud season is crushed rock and even that sinks out of sight into the mud after a while.


I'm curious, are driveways there constructed with larger rock as a base followed by progressively smaller aggregate? 
Here at least, we put down 3" rock first followed by 1" followed by crusher run which contains everything like 3/8" and smaller, including fines.  
I can imagine though where frost goes deep that even 3" rock would just get pushed deeper each season.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2019)

semipro said:


> Not to be a wet blanket but... salt is showing up increasingly in our drinking water supplies in amounts that affect health and taste.  In a study in New Hampshire they found that about 50% of it was being used for deicing private properties and parking lots.  The amount used by DOTs on roads was far less. The rest came from water softening systems.
> 
> In 20 years on our rural property with winter weather on a difficult, sloped, driveway we've never resorted to using chemical deicers.  Suitable vehicles and tires coupled with mechanical snow removal and aggregate application has worked for us.
> 
> That said, we have gotten stuck a few times and once whacked a nearby tree but I figure that's the price of country living.



We have dogs so we try to keep the salt use to a minimum, it's mainly to thaw our sand. I'm actually looking into beet juice as a thawing agent. My local tractor dealer said they can fill the tires with beet juice to add ballast to the tractor during low traction situations and heavy lifting. They must have a source for it, and I think that would be awesome to keep our sand from freezing. 

We aren't looking to get rid of all the ice, just to give our feet and vehicles more traction. I've never encountered ice like this before, so it's new for me.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2019)

semipro said:


> I'm curious, are driveways there constructed with larger rock as a base followed by progressively smaller aggregate?
> Here at least, we put down 3" rock first followed by 1" followed by crusher run which contains everything like 3/8" and smaller, including fines.
> I can imagine though where frost goes deep that even 3" rock would just get pushed deeper each season.



I believe this to be the case for my driveway since it hasn't been maintained ever since it was put there in 1977. I imagine adding sand and gravel all winter only helps to maintain the surface.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 23, 2019)

_*Can you really just cover up the sand pile with salt to keep it from freezing?*_

Well, not exactly. I would keep the sand covered from the elements, and mix some salt with it to keep it from freezing solid. I don't really know what the proper ratio would be - but quite a bit heavier on the sand than salt. You will likely end up with some chunks in it that break fairly easy with a shovel.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 23, 2019)

The big trick with building a driveway in areas with frost is drainage. If the soil is sandy/gravel water just drains through it and it never freezes. Unfortunately there are lot of clay soils out there in the region and in that case the clay retains the water and expands when it freezes and melts from the top down in the spring leading to soup on top of ice. It also melts on the top during the day and refreezes at night.  The long term method is dig out the clay down a couple of feet and put in ditches that are at or below the base of the gravel. The ditches need to drain freely and sloped to drain year round and then the driveway is filled in with crushed gravel to finish elevation. Even with that design, clay will eventually work its way up through the gravel. My driveway is typical where they stripped the topsoil, back filled it with gravel and put the finish elevation above the surroundings so no need for a ditch and I got it paved. It has held up well over the years except for few stones working their way up due to frost action but it does act like a  dam in the spring when the snow is melting but the ground is frozen. Good gravel is expensive and also can get clay migrating up into it so I think the approach now is strip the topsoil, laydown drainage fabric and then a thinner bed of gravel on top of the fabric. The fabric allows water to drain down but slows down the clay migrating up.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2019)

maple1 said:


> _*Can you really just cover up the sand pile with salt to keep it from freezing?*_
> 
> Well, not exactly. I would keep the sand covered from the elements, and mix some salt with it to keep it from freezing solid. I don't really know what the proper ratio would be - but quite a bit heavier on the sand than salt. You will likely end up with some chunks in it that break fairly easy with a shovel.



Yes, I want to build a simple pole structure for my sand pile. Even if I end up just buying pallets of tube sand, I still need something to cover it. I learned the hard way about this.


----------



## festerw (Jan 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> We have dogs so we try to keep the salt use to a minimum, it's mainly to thaw our sand. *I'm actually looking into beet juice as a thawing agent*. My local tractor dealer said they can fill the tires with beet juice to add ballast to the tractor during low traction situations and heavy lifting. They must have a source for it, and I think that would be awesome to keep our sand from freezing.
> 
> We aren't looking to get rid of all the ice, just to give our feet and vehicles more traction. I've never encountered ice like this before, so it's new for me.



Beet juice on it's own will not thaw anything out, it has to be used in conjunction with salt.  You would be able to use less salt with it coated in beet juice though.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 23, 2019)

festerw said:


> Beet juice on it's own will not thaw anything out, it has to be used in conjunction with salt.  You would be able to use less salt with it coated in beet juice though.



Thanks for the heads up. I was hoping sand soaked with beet juice wouldn't freeze. That's really all we need to happen.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jan 23, 2019)

Just keep laying that gravel down.Eventually you have an slightly elevated driveway that wont turn to mush in rain and snow and ice.


----------



## thewoodlands (Jan 23, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> My parking area and driveway, not to mention the plowed dirt road connecting my driveway to the paved road, is covered in inches of ice after yesterday's storm. We managed to keep the snow cleared, but then the rain came. What do I do now? I've never had to deal with this much ice before, and it's not going to go away on its own. If we had gotten the 1-3" of forecasted snow, this wouldn't have been an issue, but we didn't get the snow all morning like forecasted. We currently have about 1,500 lbs of sand and 125 lbs of salt and a 500,000 btu propane torch and some shovels. I know, not the best gear, but we are working on it. A tractor is happening soon, but it probably won't be for a few more weeks.
> 
> Please, we need some advice!
> 
> Thank you!


We use ash on most of the driveway when we get ice and sand on the upper part near the house.Since we put in an outside fireplace years back, we always have plenty or can make some real quick out of some dead pine.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jan 24, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> We have dogs so we try to keep the salt use to a minimum, it's mainly to thaw our sand. I'm actually looking into beet juice as a thawing agent. My local tractor dealer said they can fill the tires with beet juice to add ballast to the tractor during low traction situations and heavy lifting. They must have a source for it, and I think that would be awesome to keep our sand from freezing.
> 
> We aren't looking to get rid of all the ice, just to give our feet and vehicles more traction. I've never encountered ice like this before, so it's new for me.


Remember to keep it simple, or it'll seem overwhelming and you'll get nothing done. Your idea of a tractor is great, but then you talk about a bucket on front and blower on back, and then you're moving to put beet juice liquid in the tires. I say slow down.
You just moved half way up the US coast to Maine. You bought someone's vacation home, implying that it may not be in a location with "all" the city/suburban services. You moved in at a time when that region enters it's toughest conditions with little experience or preparation. Don't try and tackle every problem at once.
1. Check with your neighbors, library, or Pennysaver flyer for plowing and sanding service. Hire them. They'll plow your drive and sand for you. Maybe they're even looking for some seasonal help and you could pickup some beer money.
2. Find a local truck & trailer center, or a u-haul center, and get a plow attachment for your duelly pickup.
3. Get in the habit of checking weather daily when you come home, and decide if the chains are needed for the next day (do that every day). Get used to driving slower.
4. Get your wife mobile. She probably feels equally overwhelmed and trapped. If new studded tires are out of $ range, check if your local tire guy can set her up with some smaller (undersized) used tires and get some close fitting cable "chains". Back in my day we called em Euro chains or s-chains.
5. Pick up a yard or two of sand at the Sand&Gravel. Mix each yard with a bag of salt and dump it on a tarp, then cover it with another tarp. Don't let it get rained on. Use some every day everywhere there's ice. Buy a good welcome mat to keep the dirt outside.
6. Plan on getting up an hour or two earlier every day to do the chores that come with living in the country. That means going to sleep earlier. ;-)
7. Find fun things to do with your wife in your area, so you are not so homesick every time the weather forecasts another 6-12 inches. XC skiing is relatively cheap and you can take your dogs with you. Again, the local library is great for those local resources.

OK, now it's time to tell me to shut-up and hit me with a snowball.


----------



## festerw (Jan 24, 2019)

I'll only disagree with #2 above.  A new plow big enough for a dually is going to run north of $4k, which would be better spent towards a tractor/implement.  Most plows are only interchangeable for a few years on new trucks usually with more $$ for different mounts and wiring typically.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 24, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> Remember to keep it simple, or it'll seem overwhelming and you'll get nothing done. Your idea of a tractor is great, but then you talk about a bucket on front and blower on back, and then you're moving to put beet juice liquid in the tires. I say slow down.
> You just moved half way up the US coast to Maine. You bought someone's vacation home, implying that it may not be in a location with "all" the city/suburban services. You moved in at a time when that region enters it's toughest conditions with little experience or preparation. Don't try and tackle every problem at once.
> 1. Check with your neighbors, library, or Pennysaver flyer for plowing and sanding service. Hire them. They'll plow your drive and sand for you. Maybe they're even looking for some seasonal help and you could pickup some beer money.
> 2. Find a local truck & trailer center, or a u-haul center, and get a plow attachment for your duelly pickup.
> ...



He's been talking about a tractor for quite a while now, way before the ice business. Given that, and the current conundrum, I would certainly have one that had an angle blade on the front (could get by with bucket but those can sometimes lead to a lot of back & forths when plowing), blower on the back, loaded tires, and chains. Keep it like that all winter and be ready for anything. Good used stuff can be had for decent $$, and then you get the thrill of the gear hunt added in.

Would not put a plow on the dually - would put the money to the above. 

Would not set wifey up with tire chains - the hassles of putting them off & on all the time would wear thin real quick. Studded tires, yessir. We have those on wifeys car, daughters car, and our old car the the other kids have away at school. They will still slide around on glare ice but not near as bad.

Roger on the rest.

Next.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 24, 2019)

This rain event has turned into an icing event and driveway looks to be a lumpy skating rink when the temps drop tonight. I have a plow guy and he has a sander and was just in the driveway sanding the driveway. He does it as much for his safety as my traction. He cant afford to try and plow with ice underneath as if he slides and hits something it gets expensive.

I would much rather splurge on a commercial snowblower than a plow truck. Sure a commercial blower may cost $3,000 bucks but that's about what someone will pay for excise tax and a few months depreciation on a new $50,000 plow truck .  Not sure where Spacebus is downeast in Maine but expect he gets a lot more snow than a typical southern New England homeowner. Unlike a plow I don't worry about my bankings getting too high as I throw the snow about 40' off the driveway. At the end of the winter I drain the fuel and maybe change the oil. It takes longer than using a plow but I know how to dress for it.  

Worse case is I get a Webasto heater and install an air dryer on my Unimog SEE for cold weather and I can dig myself out of just about anything. Beats a Kubota


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jan 24, 2019)

maple1 said:


> He's been talking about a tractor for quite a while now, way before the ice business. Given that, and the current conundrum, I would certainly have one that had an angle blade on the front (could get by with bucket but those can sometimes lead to a lot of back & forths when plowing), blower on the back, loaded tires, and chains. Keep it like that all winter and be ready for anything. Good used stuff can be had for decent $$, and then you get the thrill of the gear hunt added in.
> 
> Would not put a plow on the dually - would put the money to the above.



Yup, I'd be on a similar path for myself, but SpaceBus sounds like a young man with lots of energy and limited resources.
Not sure what size tractor he's looking for. A "good" used tractor will take some effort to find. And even greater effort to locate those add-ons. Don't want to get a orphan model, and then have to buy a second one later.
A new tractor with front bucket, depending on size, could set you back $15-50K. New add-ons like a snow blower is $4-10K.
And that equipment is pretty much limited to the homestead. A $4-5K plow could turn his dually into a second income. 



maple1 said:


> Would not set wifey up with tire chains - the hassles of putting them off & on all the time would wear thin real quick. Studded tires, yessir. We have those on wifey's car, daughter's car, and our old car the the other kids have away at school. They will still slide around on glare ice but not near as bad.



Yup, I'm a big fan of winter tires with studs. Happy NY still allows em. This is my second year without em on my little AWD and it has changed how often I go to VT and the Poconos. Not pleased.

A set of new studded WinterForce (not the best but not the worst) tires from TireRack, fully mounted and balanced and shipped, is probably less than $800. But I remember my youth and money sometimes got tight. So four used tires for $50 each with Euro chains could get the wife anywhere she wanted for $400.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Peerless-Chain-Passenger-Tire-Cables-0173755/19853271

Then she'll really appreciate how quiet those studs are when he eventually buys them.


----------



## blades (Jan 24, 2019)

thing with chains - ain't for high speed- maybe 20 mph max- one snapped crosslink  and that can cause a lot of damage fast.  Sure wish they hadn't banned studded tires here in WI.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 24, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> This rain event has turned into an icing event and driveway looks to be a lumpy skating rink when the temps drop tonight. I have a plow guy and he has a sander and was just in the driveway sanding the driveway. He does it as much for his safety as my traction. He cant afford to try and plow with ice underneath as if he slides and hits something it gets expensive.
> 
> I would much rather splurge on a commercial snowblower than a plow truck. Sure a commercial blower may cost $3,000 bucks but that's about what someone will pay for excise tax and a few months depreciation on a new $50,000 plow truck .  Not sure where Spacebus is downeast in Maine but expect he gets a lot more snow than a typical southern New England homeowner. Unlike a plow I don't worry about my bankings getting too high as I throw the snow about 40' off the driveway. At the end of the winter I drain the fuel and maybe change the oil. It takes longer than using a plow but I know how to dress for it.
> 
> ...



That Mog is gorgeous, definitely turning green on this end.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 24, 2019)

Too many replies to quote, so thank you all for the advice, we are definitely learning a new way of life.

Our situation is a bit different because I have acquired a blood disorder which leaves medically retired. I am liquidating some assets I have had set aside since I was 18. I had hoped to keep it growing, but my health issue is forcing me to change my lifestyle or die. The tractor will allow me to do many things on my property without being sent to the hospital, again. My wife is the primary bread winner because of my disability. She has no issue with this and is happy to finally be the one to save the day. She's a nurse and makes decent money, soon to be more once she finishes her education.

We considered a plow for the Dually, but only after we get a third car. She has a Fiat 500 Abarth cabrio that was purchased several years ago without the intention of going to such a rough environment. I bought her a set of wheels and snow tires for this winter, but wish I had gotten them studded. I don't know if she can fit chains because we went slightly larger on diameter to give her a bit more ground clearance. By slightly I mean 3/4" on a new set. Either way, I have a third set of wheels for her car in NC that will be retrieved before next winter to have a set of wheels that have studded tires. We will swap on the studded tires before storms and swap them back out after the roads/parking area has been remediated. The third car might happen before next winter, if so that will get the studded tire treatment and the Abarth will be summer only. 

After mud season we will begin constructing a pole barn, initially with just a dirt floor. It will be at least 30' wide and we will add length as we go and then summer 2020 get a slab poured after we finish the length. Eventually this will become a finished wired and heated workshop with covered parking on the sides (because I want a wood stove inside for heating and also insurance). I will also purchase a Logosol M8 landowner grade sawmill to construct said building with the trees we will be clearing in order to have space to build the structure. The tractor will make it possible for me to build this structure as if can lift and set posts, lift trusses, level the ground, etc. I want to at least get a 30x20 structure built so we can park our vehicles and have a place to put our sand for next winter. Ambitious I know, but I am retired, so I have plenty of time. 

We have several buckets of sanded salt to get us by for the time being. I knew our first winter would be tough, but we have experienced setback after setback. My transfer case lever on my truck popped off of the linkage so now I'm stuck in 2H, which could be worse. The truck is parked at the bottom of the driveway because it's too steep and my bed is currently empty. It's going to the shop on Monday because I have nowhere to work on it currently, which is why the pole barn is getting built eventually. The stove that came with the house had a giant crack, plus it was way too big for the house anyway. The previously mentioned damage that was hidden from us. We plan on pursuing the seller's agent since they didn't disclose damage they were aware of. The house took three months to close, so we got here late. My wife's car is stuck, but at least my truck made it out of our skating rink to get her to work even without 4x4. Even with all of this chit that went wrong, we still love it here and plan on staying here forever.

For those that are curious, we live on the eastern side of Machiasport across the street from the water. We are less than an hour from Lubec, the most northeastern point in the continental US. Somehow Eastport claims that title as well, but that's only a longer drive because there's no direct route from where we live. The bridge is on the north side but we live south of Eastport. 

You can't see the water today because of the rain, but this is from our bedroom sliding glass door.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jan 24, 2019)

Hey SpaceBus, sometimes life deals us lemons, you seem to be squeezing em into lemon-aid!

On the Fiat 500 Abarth cabriolet, that's a cute car, but I couldn't think of a more "out of place car" for Maine. Except for those 4 perfect weekends in the summer.   She should get a nice Suby, seems like everybody up there owns one so parts & repair should be a breeze.

Re the place: Sounds like you picked up a homestead instead of a house. Blessing and a curse cause the work never ends. Wish I had one!

Re the plowing: The following YT is a bit long but it's the best "straight talk" on the business, if you are thinking about it. This kid runs his business in the Saugerties NY area. I don't know him, but I wish I had him as a nephew.



Glad to have you on the Hearth.com forum. Post lots of pics of your accomplishments.

And oh yeah,... Nurses Rock !


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jan 24, 2019)

blades said:


> thing with chains - ain't for high speed- maybe 20 mph max- one snapped crosslink  and that can cause a lot of damage fast.  Sure wish they hadn't banned studded tires here in WI.


 That's what I explain to people when they tell me I should get chains. It just doesn't fit my need to cover great distances by highway. I'd do 45-50 tops with those s-cables. I can drive highway all the way to VT and back with studs and no worries. And they last a long time if you don't run them in the warm weather. But if you're willing to slow down and travel limited distances with purpose, those cable/chains are fine and cheap.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 24, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> Hey SpaceBus, sometimes life deals us lemons, you seem to be squeezing em into lemon-aid!
> 
> On the Fiat 500 Abarth cabriolet, that's a cute car, but I couldn't think of a more "out of place car" for Maine. Except for those 4 perfect weekends in the summer.   She should get a nice Suby, seems like everybody up there owns one so parts & repair should be a breeze.
> 
> ...




I really enjoy the Hearth forums and find the experience of many of the members to be very helpful with many aspects of life.

Yeah, the Abarth is not the right car for the winter, but it does have a limited slip diff so it's working. Hopefully by next winter I can find a decent Impreza Outback Sport or Suzuki SX4 with AWD for daily driver purposes. I also have a project Miata sitting in NC I want to bring up here to build into a rally car. It was my autocross car until the engine let go.

We did buy a homestead, but it was intentional. We like our privacy and we want to grow our own food. I plan on getting a few Aplaca soon ish for making clothing, plus I think they are rad. The tractor will also be a great asset when we start making our garden beds. Most of our cleared land that gets sun is a hill side, so we'll have to make terraced beds. Since I'm retired now I can just stay at home and run the farm while my wife works. She's in home care and only six miles from home. The family she works for is actually going to give me their alpaca once I build a fence and a barn/Manger for him.

I do plan on making some money in the winter plowing once I get a good remotely adjustable plow and a spreader. The spreader will happen  sooner than later since it will help our property. This summer I'd also like to get certified as a sweep and chimney installer and work part time when I can. There aren't any sweeps within an hour of me  and wood burning is popular here. Mostly it's for my own benefit since I would like to install a wood cook stove and a chimney for it before winter 2020.


----------



## festerw (Jan 25, 2019)

Do a lot of research into the plowing business, it's not nearly as lucrative as most think.  Between equipment, repairs, insurance, taxes, and cheap customers, it can become a money pit quickly.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 25, 2019)

I should have taken a photo earlier, but I was too busy enjoying this perfect weather. It stayed above freezing most of the day and we had no clouds. The wife's car can finally make it down the drive and even though my truck is stuck in 2H for the time being I made it back up the driveway. We put down all of the wood ashes from the season so far and a bit of sand and salt mix. Everything is easily drivable now.


----------



## Chimney Smoke (Jan 25, 2019)

Nice view of the ocean.  Do you own right to the coast?


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 25, 2019)

Chimney Smoke said:


> Nice view of the ocean.  Do you own right to the coast?



No, we are across the road from the ocean. On the other side of the trees at the end of the cleared area is a main road. It's not quite the ocean either, but a bay. I'm not sad to be on a bay rather than right on the Atlantic.


----------



## CaptSpiff (Jan 25, 2019)

festerw said:


> Do a lot of research into the plowing business, it's not nearly as lucrative as most think.  Between equipment, repairs, insurance, taxes, and cheap customers, it can become a money pit quickly.



So I could not agree more!,... you also just described the primary risk components of Real Estate.
Actually, almost every business plan list these components on the risk side.

So whether SpaceBus considers starting a Chimney Sweep business, a Snow Plowing business, or anything else,... "do the research for the local area".
And be ready to eat rice & beans for way longer than planned, because (as _festerw _ wrote) it's seldom as lucrative as most think.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 25, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> So I could not agree more!,... you also just described the primary risk components of Real Estate.
> Actually, almost every business plan list these components on the risk side.
> 
> So whether SpaceBus considers starting a Chimney Sweep business, a Snow Plowing business, or anything else,... "do the research for the local area".
> And be ready to eat rice & beans for way longer than planned, because (as _festerw _ wrote) it's seldom as lucrative as most think.



Indeed, I have a feeling the insurance alone might be too expensive to make money doing it part time. Taxes will be painful as well. It's difficult for the small business owner these days. Due to my health issues, I just can't work around people, my immune system is not strong enough. I'm also highly susceptible to injury and have to be extremely careful because my platelets are chronically low. I may be better off applying for social security early as much as I hate to admit it. I'm also considering petitioning the VA for a higher disability rating as I can do very little as far as a job goes.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 26, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> More than few folks with dirt driveways intentionally keep them iced up as the alternative is worse. My friend has a dirt driveway on clay and he intentionally drives on top of the snow to pack it down for the first few storms and only then does he plow the driveway. If he takes it down to dirt if there is warmup (forecasted for tomorrow) it just ruts up and then freezes. .
> 
> If this is your first winter in Maine you will soon learn about the 5th season which is mud season.



Often if we only have an inch to three inches of snow I'll pack it down . . . partly for icing and partly because I'm too lazy to plow. 

I hate Mud Season . . . not enough snow to snowmobile and too much mud to ATV since trails are closed during Mud Season to minimize damage to the trails.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 26, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Thanks for the advice! We did manage to thaw some sand and we filled a few large Rubbermaid bins with sand and then added five pounds of salt to each. Some of my sand didn't freeze solid and we were able to spread it and that helped immensely. I'm saving up my bucket of wood ash until it's full, but that's only one more ash pan from the stove.
> As far as the tractor, that will happen in a week or two. I was thinking about putting the spreader on my truck so I can keep the front loader and rear snowblower on the tractor at all times during the winter. I also plan on building a lean to or some kind of covered area for loads of sand and salt.
> 
> Can you really just cover up the sand pile with salt to keep it from freezing? Supposedly our town provides some kind of sand and/or sand salt mix, but I have no idea where. I'm going to try and find out today.
> ...



If it's any consolation . . . it's been a long "Winter." The cold and snow came in earlier this year and while we've had cycles where it has got cold and snowed and then cycles where it has warmed up and melted away, it just seems to be dragging this year.

I think the key to surviving Winter here by the way is to find something to do outside in Winter that you enjoy . . . for me that's snowmobiling, for my wife it's enjoying the hot tub. Unfortunately, we've done very little of either this year and it's taking its toll.


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 26, 2019)

CaptSpiff said:


> Hey SpaceBus, sometimes life deals us lemons, you seem to be squeezing em into lemon-aid!
> 
> On the Fiat 500 Abarth cabriolet, that's a cute car, but I couldn't think of a more "out of place car" for Maine. Except for those 4 perfect weekends in the summer.   She should get a nice Suby, seems like everybody up there owns one so parts & repair should be a breeze.
> 
> . . .





SpaceBus said:


> I really enjoy the Hearth forums and find the experience of many of the members to be very helpful with many aspects of life.
> 
> Yeah, the Abarth is not the right car for the winter, but it does have a limited slip diff so it's working. Hopefully by next winter I can find a decent Impreza Outback Sport or Suzuki SX4 with AWD for daily driver purposes. I also have a project Miata sitting in NC I want to bring up here to build into a rally car. It was my autocross car until the engine let go.
> 
> ...


----------



## firefighterjake (Jan 26, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I should have taken a photo earlier, but I was too busy enjoying this perfect weather.* It stayed above freezing most of the day* and we had no clouds. The wife's car can finally make it down the drive and even though my truck is stuck in 2H for the time being I made it back up the driveway. We put down all of the wood ashes from the season so far and a bit of sand and salt mix. *Everything is easily drivable now*.



That's one thing about weather here in Maine . . . wait long enough and it changes and oftentimes the problem (icy driveway, too much snow on the shed roof, not enough rain, too much rain, etc.) resolves itself with a change in weather.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 26, 2019)

firefighterjake said:


> If it's any consolation . . . it's been a long "Winter." The cold and snow came in earlier this year and while we've had cycles where it has got cold and snowed and then cycles where it has warmed up and melted away, it just seems to be dragging this year.
> 
> I think the key to surviving Winter here by the way is to find something to do outside in Winter that you enjoy . . . for me that's snowmobiling, for my wife it's enjoying the hot tub. Unfortunately, we've done very little of either this year and it's taking its toll.



I've been thinking about making a wood fired hot tub...


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 26, 2019)

I'm wondering if I could partner with an established sweep out closer to Ellsworth or Bangor that way the burden of insurance does not fall entirely on me. I doubt I could make enough money being a sweep part time to cover the insurance. I love winter stuff, I just have to find hobbies that won't break me. Apparently processing two cords this winter pushed my body over the edge and sent me to the hospital. I think clearing trails with a tractor will work well for me.


----------



## PaulOinMA (Jan 26, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> … For those that are curious, we live on the eastern side of Machiasport across the street from the water …



I was going to ask.  Several of the families in my wife's former church here in MA (Hudson UMC) have cabins at the Methodist camp in Machias.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 26, 2019)

PaulOinMA said:


> I was going to ask you where you were.  Several of the families in my wife's former church here in MA (Hudson UMC) have cabins at the Methodist camp in Machias.



We are pretty close to Machias, like 15-ish minutes to town, maybe a bit longer. I feel like we got lucky with with this property even with the house issues. We are halfway between Machias and Cutler.


----------



## peakbagger (Jan 26, 2019)

Not sure if Spaces Bus's area is llike a lot of the Maine coast but out of staters buy up all the waterfront and the locals end up buying the lots inland. Used to be lobstermen lived right on the coast but these days they cannot afford the frontage and end up inland.

I went to college with a guy from Cutler Maine, he had the standard maine humor description for Culter, "it aint the end of the world but you can see it from there" .


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 26, 2019)

peakbagger said:


> Not sure if Spaces Bus's area is llike a lot of the Maine coast but out of staters buy up all the waterfront and the locals end up buying the lots inland. Used to be lobstermen lived right on the coast but these days they cannot afford the frontage and end up inland.
> 
> I went to college with a guy from Cutler Maine, he had the standard maine humor description for Culter, "it aint the end of the world but you can see it from there" .



That quote is why we're here. We didn't buy a big fancy expensive place. This was used as a vacation home for many years by the previous owners, but we are here full time. I'm not really from anywhere and this is the first home I've ever had. My wife is from New England, so it's not like she's some foreigner to this region. She also has family here.


----------

