# Advice/tips on chain sharpening needed



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm finding that the hardest part of this whole project of burning wood is keeping a sharp chain on the saw (Husqvarna 455, if that matters).  I've been taking the chain to a shop to be ground after I file it a couple times, but I've figured out that they are abusing the chain more than I am -- they take off about half the cutter, and almost as much of the raker.  I need to figure out how to do this myself.

I have a "Forester" file kit, with a stamped steel guide that fits on the file; I haven't found this to be any better than freehanding the file.  I also have a "Pferd" file kit, with the guide that holds the round file as well as a flat file for the rakers; this seems to be a much better tool.  

Still, I am having one problem.  I have not figured out how to get the edge on the top plate of the cutter sharp.  The side plate I can sharpen fine, and the point is a little less sharp, but the top plate seems not to contact the file correctly to put an edge on it.  I think I have the 25 degree angle of the top plate correct, and I put about a 10 degree angle downward (this I gleaned from the manual that came with the saw, though I am now using Carlton chains that the shop sold me since that is what they carry) on the file. 

Any ideas as to why the top plate might not be getting sharp like it is supposed to?  I'd like to figure out how to hand file, since it seems like plenty of folks here do only this and keep their chains plenty sharp.


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## thewoodlands (Apr 10, 2010)

I use this file, seems to work good.

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/homeown...ries/filing-equipment/sharp-force-file-guide/


zap


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## loon (Apr 10, 2010)

one size up on the file that its rated for...
i have to use what zapny put up or i am all over the place.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 10, 2010)

The "Forester" is like the one in loon's picture; the Pferd is visually indistinguishable from the Husqvarna file, except for the color (the blue file guide really clashes with my blaze orange saw and PPE).

loon, are you saying that I ought to use a larger diameter file than the 7/16" that the chain is supposed to be sharpened with? Is there a larger diameter round file sold for chain sharpening use? I thought 7/16" was already the biggest common size.  I can imagine how a thicker file would solve the problem I'm having, although I don't think that there would be enough clearance behind the raker -- the file already drags on the back of the raker if I am not careful.


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## loon (Apr 10, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:
			
		

> The "Forester" is like the one in loon's picture; the Pferd is visually indistinguishable from the Husqvarna file, except for the color (the blue file guide really clashes with my blaze orange saw and PPE).
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> loon, are you saying that I ought to use a larger diameter file than the 7/16" that the chain is supposed to be sharpened with? Is there a larger diameter round file sold for chain sharpening use? I thought 7/16" was already the biggest common size.  I can imagine how a thicker file would solve the problem I'm having, although I don't think that there would be enough clearance behind the raker -- the file already drags on the back of the raker if I am not careful.




what i do is after about a dozen touch ups on a new chain, i will go from a 3/16th to a 13/64 file. not sure if this is proper but it works very well for me...

will try and post a pic later with the larger one on the chain.







Terry


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## LLigetfa (Apr 10, 2010)

Forget the file guide gizmos... freehand it.  Also, watch that 10 degree angle.  Chances are the chain is canting over in the groove so if you're 10 degrees to the bar, you are way off.  Try holding the file parallel to the top of the cutter, not relative to the bar.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 10, 2010)

Edit to the above posts: I'm using 7/32", not 7/16".  I got overtired cutting with a dull chain yesterday...

I'll try to find a 5/16" file around here and see if that makes a difference.  Need some new files anyway, I think; I read somewhere that I should be replacing the file after 6 or 8 sharpenings, so mine are possibly shot.

I did try a little freehand yesterday, and although I didn't get any better results than using the 'gizmo', I felt like that might be the right way to learn exactly what I'm doing, and what I'm doing wrong.


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## loon (Apr 10, 2010)

here is the 16/64 on one of my used chains.

sorry not very good with a camera...


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## smokinj (Apr 10, 2010)

That looks really good!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 11, 2010)

So I think I figured out that my problem was a combination of (1) depending too much on the file guide, and (2) a dull...no, really dull...file.  I went to town to get a larger diameter file, but the largest they (well, TSC) had was a 7/32", so I got a pair of them.  Came home, compared the new files to the old and realized that the new files are noticeably thicker than the old ones.  Same nominal diameter, but the old ones had been worn down to where they were not contacting the cutter correctly, I think.

So I sharpened up a chain (freehand) and headed out into the woods.  It was a little sharper, I guess, for about 1/3 tank of gas and then it was dull.  So I sat down and really took my time with each cutter, going slowly and making sure each was nice and sharp on all cutting surfaces before I went on to the next one.  Listening to the birds helped, too.  Nice pleasant afternoon here today.  This chain was quite a bit better than the first.  After a couple rounds of this, I've got it to where the chain stays reasonably sharp through a full tank of gas.

Thanks for the feedback.  I was getting discouraged there for a while.


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## WES999 (Apr 11, 2010)

I have one of these, pretty much the same thing as the file and joint.
I think it does a good job. With some practice it is just about as fast as filing freehand but more accurate.


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## loon (Apr 11, 2010)

Wes, my problem is that when i am over on the farm the sharpening is done off this.
cant beat bringing it home to the vice.
and like i said before, i have to have something to help me as i cant keep a straight line on the chain..

i seen that at home depot the other day.

Terry


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## savageactor7 (Apr 11, 2010)

*Forget the file guide gizmos… freehand it. *

yup what LL says, plus tighten the chain up so it doesn't move when you draw a file across it. Keep your feet/body still while you do one side then the other...you move the chain the chain doesn't move you.

For me the best place to file is as close to the powerhead where I have it viced down. Use a felt tipped pen to mark off the cleaned off starter tooth.

As you draw the file across the tooth try and twist it up to the point...*the points do most of the cutting.* After 10 or so times you'll get the hang of it. It's a good idea to keep a log round close by so you test it by taking a inch off to see if you're cutting square...don't forget to put chain at proper tension before testing.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2010)

I think the "gizmos" have their place as most people who sharpen by hand recomend to have them sharpened buy a shop every 10 times or so to get the angles trued up, some of these "gizmos" keep the angles correct so you can skip taking them to the shop who also use "gizmos".


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2010)

Just like the grinders in the shop, those gizmos rely on the operator setting it up and doing it right.  They don't make idiot-proof gizmos.  The OP stated the shop would grind off way too much and who knows if they got the profile right or not.

My father could never sharpen a chain his entire life so I bought him one of those gizmos.  I showed him how to set it up properly but he never did get the hang of it so everytime I went to visit him there were a dozen mangled chains to waiting for me.  He'd get them so dull that they would get hot and when he ran it into the wet ground, they would harden to the point the file would just skip and get a shine on it.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2010)

Its all about learning as much as you can about the subject, all I was saying is even some of the experts like to have the angles squared up afther 10 times or so, if you can use something that keeps the angles correct you do not have to relay on someone else.  Not knowing how to use the gizmo is a whole another subject.


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Not knowing how to use the gizmo is a whole another subject.


No, the gizmo not working out as expected IS the topic of this thread, not another subject.  Whether or not the problem is a knowledge issue is conjecture.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2010)

If you can not figure out the gizmo then how are you going to figure out how to hand file it correctly?


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2010)

Ja, that is my point.  The gizmo is like training wheels that don't really teach you how to ride a bike.  I think every chain should come in a box with a giant size picture of how a properly sharpened cutter should look.  Then it's just a matter of making it look the same.  Keep a new chain on hand to compare to and don't cont on the shop grinding correctly or a gizmo to bring a chain back in true.


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## oldspark (Apr 11, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> Ja, that is my point.  The gizmo is like training wheels that don't really teach you how to ride a bike.  I think every chain should come in a box with a giant size picture of how a properly sharpened cutter should look.  Then it's just a matter of making it look the same.  Keep a new chain on hand to compare to and don't cont on the shop grinding correctly or a gizmo to bring a chain back in true.


 I think you might have missed one of my points earlier, most people who hand file recomend taking it to a shop to true up the angles after 10 or so sharpenings so why not use a gizmo (getting tired of that word) to keep the angles true. I think the devices for sharpening still need the same knowledge for hand filing so take some of the guess work out of it. By their own admission the hand filers can not keep the angles perfect.


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## smokinj (Apr 11, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

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Your right old spark even some of the best hand sharpeners will need help from time to time..with that said after you get some experienced with it free hand will come in time but no need to push it just take your time and do it right that's the most important part!


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## LLigetfa (Apr 11, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I think you might have missed one of my points earlier...


Points are being missed all around.  Yes, there are a lot of people that say take it to a shop to get the chain back to true but if the shop does a hack job, you're not back to true.  The same thing with the gizmos.  They are not foolproof so you can hack up the chain with one and not be any closer to true.

There is anecdotal evidence of both at the start of this thread.  The OP stated the shop grind was dubious and that his gizmo guided filing wasn't working.  What more do you want?

I did a lot of skate sharpening years ago between bush work.  I also overhauled and calibrated the grinders.  Anyone can buy a grinder, hang up a shingle, and call themself an expert.  I've seen a lot of hack jobs.  The owner of the shop I worked at was a hack.  Customers would hang back and wait for me to spell off the owner at the grinder and then bring me their skates, asking that I grind them right away and not leave them for the owner to do.  Sometimes they would come ask me to do their skates even when the owner was at the sharpener.  The funny thing was that I couldn't even skate at the time.


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## oldspark (Apr 12, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

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 That would not be the first time I missed points, I guess it all comes down to what works for you, the only reason I posted was because it sounded like the sharpeners were being written off as no good. One shop screwed up one of my chains once and I made them buy me a new chain, they were not happy but they knew they were wrong, other wise when ever I have a shop sharpen my chain they are better than what I do by far!


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## oldspark (Apr 12, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> Forget the file guide gizmos... freehand it.  Also, watch that 10 degree angle.  Chances are the chain is canting over in the groove so if you're 10 degrees to the bar, you are way off.  Try holding the file parallel to the top of the cutter, not relative to the bar.


 What 10 degree angle are you refering to?


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

I guess there is no one you can trust with your chains not even yourself! lol I guess most people see all the wood I have stack and piled that I must know some-
thing about chains and there are others around who do a good job its not a Rocket!


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## LLigetfa (Apr 12, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

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The OP mentioned the 10 degree angle in the first post.  If the bar were plumb, the file would be 10 degrees off from level, so 80 or 100 degrees to the bar depending which side you're measuring.



			
				Socratic Monologue said:
			
		

> ...and I put about a 10 degree angle downward (this I gleaned from the manual that came with the saw...



A chain can slop 10 degrees side to side in a worn bar so the 10 degrees could end up being 20 degrees depending which direction you push the file.


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

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LOL your all over the place thats how chains get so screwed up in the first place!


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## oldspark (Apr 12, 2010)

How many brands of chains call for the 10 degree angle? I had an old stihl chain that called for it but all of my newer stuff does not.


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> How many brands of chains call for the 10 degree angle? I had an old stihl chain that called for it but all of my newer stuff does not.



hes talking about putting a slight 10 degree down tilt on the file on your stroke. Ripping chains use a 10 degree cutter angle.


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> How many brands of chains call for the 10 degree angle? I had an old stihl chain that called for it but all of my newer stuff does not.



there is 2 angles on a cutter all can be done in one stroke.


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## DiscoInferno (Apr 12, 2010)

All of the Oregon chain I've used (LG, LGX, V) and the Woodland Pro 30RC call for the 10 degree downward angle from the bar.  I find keeping that particular angle correct to be the hardest part of hand sharpening, and I'm sure after a while I'm way off.  Plus my el-cheapo HF grinder doesn't even have an adjustment for that angle, so presumably it's set to 0.  But my hand filing has gotten a lot better with practice, and I don't use the grinder much now.


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

DiscoInferno said:
			
		

> All of the Oregon chain I've used (LG, LGX, V) and the Woodland Pro 30RC call for the 10 degree downward angle from the bar.  I find keeping that particular angle correct to be the hardest part of hand sharpening, and I'm sure after a while I'm way off.  Plus my el-cheapo HF grinder doesn't even have an adjustment for that angle, so presumably it's set to 0.  But my hand filing has gotten a lot better with practice, and I don't use the grinder much now.



on the grinder you have 30/60 degree angles and the down ward 10 degree will be on the how deep you cut it.


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## DiscoInferno (Apr 12, 2010)

Don't higher-end grinders have an adjustment for the tangent angle of the disk right where it contacts the tooth, perhaps by tilting the vice?  I assumed they did but have never used anything but the HF one, which only lets you directly set the main (top plate?) angle directly.  (The one that's 25-35 degrees.)  There is a depth adjustment, but just cutting more or less deep doesn't seem the same as changing that third angle.  But I have no idea why that 10 degrees is important anyway.


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

DiscoInferno said:
			
		

> Don't higher-end grinders have an adjustment for the tangent angle of the disk right where it contacts the tooth, perhaps by tilting the vice? I assumed they did but have never used anything but the HF one, which only lets you directly set the main (top plate?) angle directly. (The one that's 25-35 degrees.) There is a depth adjustment, but just cutting more or less deep doesn't seem the same as changing that third angle. But I have no idea why that 10 degrees is important anyway.



no you have 2 stops and two angles compound and the 3 rd is depth using the compound angle with depth to achieve the results
there is also a new jig to do square chains with one stroke in the same manor. (also compound angles on the file)


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## webie (Apr 12, 2010)

As I can remember many moons ago I would have to dig out some of my old oregon books but it was one of the chisel chains either full or semi not sure but one was sharpened at a 30 dgree angle , and then they had an inclusion that if you cut softer woods  that you could sharpen at a 35 degree angle and a 10 degree tilt  I know now all my stihl chains are all done flat .


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

webie said:
			
		

> As I can remember many moons ago I would have to dig out some of my old oregon books but it was one of the chisel chains either full or semi not sure but one was sharpened at a 30 dgree angle , and then they had an inclusion that if you cut softer woods  that you could sharpen at a 35 degree angle and a 10 degree tilt  I know now all my stihl chains are all done flat .



I use 30 for all put ripping. 60 on the tilt on a machine anyways.


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## DiscoInferno (Apr 12, 2010)

The oregon chain I've got is 25/60/10 and Woodland pro is 30/60/10, I think.


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## smokinj (Apr 12, 2010)

DiscoInferno said:
			
		

> The oregon chain I've got is 25/60/10 and Woodland pro is 30/60/10, I think.



woodland pro full chisel is 35 I still cut it at 30 the same as stihl rs cant really say if there is any deference because I cant tell.


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## firefighterjake (Apr 14, 2010)

Started out filing by hand . . . didn't do so well.

Bought a File N' Joint and got some advice from a veteran . . . I still have the File N' Joint, but have found that it works well one way, not so great the other . . . most likely due to operator error . . . the good news though is between the good advice and just getting used to the right angle of the dangle with the FNJ it seems as though my hand filing has improved.


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## oldspark (Apr 14, 2010)

I am still a little confused over the 10 degree angle that was talked about in a couple of posts, with my sharpener I can set for the 10 degree angle in relation to the bar but it sounds like you are talking about something else.


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## smokinj (Apr 14, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I am still a little confused over the 10 degree angle that was talked about in a couple of posts, with my sharpener I can set for the 10 degree angle in relation to the bar but it sounds like you are talking about something else.



It is a little confusing are you using a file or grinder?


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## oldspark (Apr 14, 2010)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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 Granberg (sp?) type dealy bob.


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## smokinj (Apr 14, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

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is that a jig or grinder?


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## oldspark (Apr 14, 2010)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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 Sorry, it is the clamp on device (Stihl makes one) that uses a file.


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## smokinj (Apr 14, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

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ok it should have a 10 degree slope going down when pushing the file in to the cutter and with a grinder you are coming in from the back side and is achive by the 60 degree tilt.


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## DiscoInferno (Apr 14, 2010)

Here's the standard chart from Oregon boxes showing the three angles.


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## oldspark (Apr 14, 2010)

None of the chains I use now call for the 10 degrees so I need not to worry about it correct?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 15, 2010)

One of the things I like about the folks on this forum is that when asked what time it is, you all give enough information on the subject to build a clock.  Lots of good stuff here.

That Oregon chart is pretty interesting.  Especially the part where it distinguishes between holding the file perpendicular to the bar (which it calls 90 degrees) and holding the file at a slight upward angle (which it calls 10 degrees).  What is fully about this is that if perpendicular is 90 degrees, then this measurement is given with reference to the plane that the bar itself sits on; but the 10 degree measurement is given with reference not to the plane the bar sits on, but rather to the plane perpendicular to the bar.  In other words, if 90 degrees is perpendicular, then a slight upward angle from that is 100 degrees, not 10. 

Geometric nitpicking aside, can anyone comment on the purpose of the difference in cutter angle (25-35 degrees) between safety chain and full chisel?  What I'm curious about is how that angle affects the cutting performance of the chain -- for example, what performance difference would occur if a full chisel chain were filed to 35 degrees instead of 25? And why is it such a bad thing (I've been told this by the dealer who tries to convince me that his grinding services are indispensable in my life) if the cutter angles vary from cutter to cutter?


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## LLigetfa (Apr 15, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:
			
		

> holding the file at a slight upward angle (which it calls 10 degrees)...


Upward, downward... which is it?  The OP said downward.  Downward relative to what?  What direction is the file being pushed?  How much does the chain cant over in the groove?

I have always held the file perpendicular to the vertical axis of the chain regardless of what angle the bar might be at.  I don't go for that 10 degree stuff.  I always file forward, not backwards.


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## smokinj (Apr 15, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

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yep its a push I dont really worry to much on the 10 degree thing just push it in at 30 degrees and it seems to work it self out...with that said I normally grind so there trued  up often and with milling in site there will be a lot more hand filling involed and the cutters need to be next to perfect see how that works out?


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## DiscoInferno (Apr 15, 2010)

If you are behind the saw with the tip pointing away and filing the right-side cutters (i.e. pushing the file from left to right) your left hand (holding the handle of the file) would be lower than your right.  It's a pain to maintain at the same time as the 25 degree angle (or whatever) in the other plane.  I just sharpened a couple of new chains like that and I can confirm that you need the 10 degree tilt to match the factory sharpening.  Whether or not it's important to do so or what purpose the tilt serves, I can't say.  After a few more sharpenings mine will probably be close to flat.


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## smokinj (Apr 15, 2010)

oldspark said:
			
		

> Its all about learning as much as you can about the subject, all I was saying is even some of the experts like to have the angles squared up afther 10 times or so, if you can use something that keeps the angles correct you do not have to relay on someone else. Not knowing how to use the gizmo is a whole another subject.



nothing beats perfect form!


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## ken999 (Apr 16, 2010)

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/homeowner/accessories/product-accessories/filing-equipment/file-gauges/

These control depth and 10 deg. up into the tooth. If you can control the 30 deg. top angle and use this guide, you will get a sharp saw easily.

One of these are handy too.

http://www.husqvarna.com/us/homeowner/accessories/product-accessories/filing-equipment/filing-vise/


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## kwikrp (Apr 16, 2010)

Does anyone had the link for the video on how to sharpen ??? I think Huskey has one but I can not find the link!


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## CaddyUser (Apr 16, 2010)

Not sure about the Husky one, but there is a video, quite long in length, on felling, etc etc, including using the combi-gauge on the Jonsered site.


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## nojo (Apr 17, 2010)

You dont need to use a vice in the field to sharpen your chain. Check this vid out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8HOFsxHU4c&feature=related


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## John_M (Apr 17, 2010)

Socratic, Take another look at Loon's excellent photo. This photo clearly shows a few very important examples of how to file correctly. On the top of the cutter tooth he is sharpening there is a small line which is clearly visible in his photo. That line is called the "witness" mark or "witness" line. That line is the angle, usually 25, 30 or 35 deg., at which you hold the file while sharpening. Notice how loon is correctly holding the file parallel to that line. Notice also that loon is correctly pushing or twisting the file from the "inside" or short end of the cutter toward the "outside" or long end of the cutter. Notice also that the file he is using is large enough in diameter to rise above the top cutting edge of the cutter. This height is what sharpens the top edge of the cutter.  

Another comment about the "witness" line on top of the cutter. That line is the farthest you can go in your sharpening. Once you remove all of the cutter to that point the chain should be discarded-its useful cutting life has expired. 

Loon's excellent photo gave us a lot more info than he thought it would. Well Done! 
Best wishes, John_M


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## John_M (Apr 17, 2010)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> I have always held the file perpendicular to the vertical axis of the chain regardless of what angle the bar might be at.  I don't go for that 10 degree stuff.  I always file forward, not backwards.



Me, too. John_M


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## 727sunset (Apr 18, 2010)

I made a guide that has really helped me to maintain correct cutter angle. The guide simply extends the angle of the witness mark as well as the mark found on a common file guide to make your filing efforts more accurate. 









The guide is a piece of plywood with ends cut at 30*. Then I scribed a few lines parallel to the cut ends. 














The bar and chain get sandwiched with the guide in a bench vise. 
Align the file anywhere to the series of lines on the plywood and while making the stroke keep your focus on the plywood. Other than that just keep the file level to the plywood. 
Hope this helps as it's eliminated my need for having chains ground.


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## John_M (Apr 18, 2010)

Great idea and well executed, 727.

John_M


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