# Electric vs diesel



## begreen (Nov 10, 2018)

This article is in French which my learning stopped at 10th grade so I let Google translate. It presents a deep dive by a neutral party into the wholistic environmental impacts of electric vs ICE. Coming from Europe the comparison is to diesel cars. It's a comprehensive cradle to grave (or cradle to cradle) analysis with some interesting observations and conclusions. 
http://www.auto-moto.com/green/de-lelectricite-lair-153725.html


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## woodgeek (Nov 15, 2018)

Nice article....sounds good to me.

Insert Kentucky for Poland and PNW for France, and the same applies here.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 13, 2018)

I would like to see the green people back off the nox emissions standards for the tiny turbo diesel cars. These are extremely clean cars with just a little bit of the nox emissions. The fuel co's in the US do not want 100 mpg cars. Keep the strict regs for the semi's & motorhomes but leave the 800cc turbo diesels alone! & bring them here. Open up the lead on the pump, raise turbo pressure & you will have fantastic mileage cars. But, they have to be strangled with regs so they use twice the fuel they need to. Burning twice the fuel is not saving the environment. Electric with its poison batteries is a poor solution to a problem that shouldn't exist.


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## gregbesia (Dec 14, 2018)

Please explain poison batteries.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 14, 2018)

gregbesia said:


> Please explain poison batteries.


 Lithium batteries are toxic. If they outgas for some reason say goodby to your lungs. That acid is highly poisonous.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 14, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> Lithium batteries are toxic. If they outgas for some reason say goodby to your lungs. That acid is highly poisonous.


I'm pretty sure NoX would be just as bad for one's lungs.


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## bholler (Dec 14, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> Lithium batteries are toxic. If they outgas for some reason say goodby to your lungs. That acid is highly poisonous.


Last I checked neither desel fuel nor it's exgaust was good for you either.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 14, 2018)

SpaceBus said:


> I'm pretty sure NoX would be just as bad for one's lungs.


 I'm sure it wouldn't.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 14, 2018)

bholler said:


> Last I checked neither desel fuel nor it's exgaust was good for you either.


 There is a difference between ,good for, & severely damaged lungs.


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## bholler (Dec 14, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> There is a difference between ,good for, & severely damaged lungs.


Try breathing deisel fumes for a while.  See how that works out


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## gregbesia (Dec 14, 2018)

bholler said:


> Try breathing deisel fumes for a while.  See how that works out


Germans experimented with that in WW2. Enclosed vans with diesel fumes routed to kill prisoners, also tank engines mounted in buildings with the same idea. On a side note, have you been in many European cities where they use diesel cars, in winter. Not nice.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 14, 2018)

bholler said:


> Try breathing deisel fumes for a while.  See how that works out


 Thats not very nice...is it?


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## bholler (Dec 14, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> Thats not very nice...is it?


But you claim there is nothing wrong with deisel fumes so why isn't it nice?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 15, 2018)

bholler said:


> But you claim there is nothing wrong with deisel fumes so why isn't it nice?


 Say What! Diesel fumes are poisonous when concentrated & I never said otherwise. One whiff of diesel exhaust wont hurt anyone. One whiff of an outgassed lithium battery might be the end of the show.


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## jebatty (Dec 15, 2018)

The only advantage of diesel over battery/electric vehicles is readily available fuel for long trips, although not as readily available as gasoline. In addition to the following from Wikipedia, which is as true for electric vehicles as for locomotives: electric has no deadly exhaust, electric is simple with few moving parts and therefore has near zero maintenance, electric has no emissions, electric acceleration is awesome, electric is quiet, electric is less expensive and has an infinite energy supply, and the list goes on ....

Below is from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_locomotive

Electric locomotives benefit from the high efficiency of electric motors, often above 90% (not including the inefficiency of generating the electricity). Additional efficiency can be gained from regenerative braking, which allows kinetic energy to be recovered during braking to put power back on the line. Newer electric locomotives use AC motor-inverter drive systems that provide for regenerative braking. Electric locomotives are quiet compared to diesel locomotives since there is no engine and exhaust noise and less mechanical noise. The lack of reciprocating parts means electric locomotives are easier on the track, reducing track maintenance. Power plant capacity is far greater than any individual locomotive uses, so electric locomotives can have a higher power output than diesel locomotives and they can produce even higher short-term surge power for fast acceleration. Electric locomotives are ideal for commuter rail service with frequent stops. Electric locomotives are used on freight routes with consistently high traffic volumes, or in areas with advanced rail networks. Power plants, even if they burn fossil fuels, are far cleaner than mobile sources such as locomotive engines. The power can also come from clean or renewable sources, including geothermal power, hydroelectric power, nuclear power, solar power and wind turbines.[1]


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 15, 2018)

Electric has batteries that are thousands of dollars. Electric has batteries that must be recycled to avoid an environmental disaster. Europe does not have increased incidence of lung cancer from slightly elevated nox emissions. Cities that were ,dirty, years ago did not have the newer direct injection turbo diesels. Electric cars are very expensive & out of the reach of many people. Tiny turbo diesels can be built so that low income people have access to cheap transportation. Tiny turbo diesels don't have to be subsidized, they are great right out of the box. Europe loves their turbo diesels...thats because they told the big oil co's working with their shill environmentalists to buzz off.


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## bholler (Dec 15, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> Say What! Diesel fumes are poisonous when concentrated & I never said otherwise. One whiff of diesel exhaust wont hurt anyone. One whiff of an outgassed lithium battery might be the end of the show.


No you simply said poisonous batteries.  And yes they are but so are many things involved with internal combustion vehicles.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 15, 2018)

bholler said:


> No you simply said poisonous batteries.  And yes they are but so are many things involved with internal combustion vehicles.


 I am talking degrees of toxicity. I was on a flashlight forum & one poor guy had a flashlight back charge on him. His lungs will never be the same. I'm not sure if they were even able to save him. The flashlight was multi 18650 batteries & somehow one was lower voltage. That can blow your hand right off too. The Tesla has thousands of lithium ion 18650 batteries.


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## jebatty (Dec 15, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> ... one poor guy had a flashlight back charge on him. His lungs will never be the same....The flashlight was multi 18650 batteries & somehow one was lower voltage. That can blow your hand right off too. The Tesla has thousands of lithium ion 18650 batteries.



People are falling down everywhere with poisoned lungs, blown off hands, and severe mental impairment all over the place. Recently one was claiming that "clean coal" was when workers physically washed the chunks of coal.


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## bholler (Dec 15, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> I am talking degrees of toxicity. I was on a flashlight forum & one poor guy had a flashlight back charge on him. His lungs will never be the same. I'm not sure if they were even able to save him. The flashlight was multi 18650 batteries & somehow one was lower voltage. That can blow your hand right off too. The Tesla has thousands of lithium ion 18650 batteries.


Ok so a flashlight battery malfunctioned so electric cars are all waiting to kill you.  Got it.  I guess no one has ever dies from anything related to deisel.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 15, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> . The Tesla has thousands of lithium ion 18650 batteries.


Must be very safe. Iv never heard of a tesla blowing up. I use these batteries all the time. Flashlights ,power tools, ect  Very reliable.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 15, 2018)

So safe that my friend died of throat cancer from lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 15, 2018)

bholler said:


> Ok so a flashlight battery malfunctioned so electric cars are all waiting to kill you.  Got it.  I guess no one has ever dies from anything related to deisel.


 If you are hit head on from a diesel truck you will probably buy it.


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## bholler (Dec 15, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> If you are hit head on from a diesel truck you will probably buy it.


I get it batteries can be dangerous.  But that doesn't mean they can't be used safely and effectivly


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## begreen (Dec 15, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> Europe does not have increased incidence of lung cancer from slightly elevated nox emissions.


Considering that most lung cancer is caused by smoking it's sometimes hard to tease that data out. Add to this that there are a lot of other toxins in diesel fumes. Still, the World Health Organization did do this in 2012 by examining groups that had high exposure to diesel fumes. They concluded:

_ "The scientific evidence was compelling and the Working Group's conclusion was unanimous, diesel engine exhaust causes lung cancer in humans.
"Given the additional health impacts from diesel particulates, exposure to this mixture of chemicals should be reduced worldwide."_
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-18415532


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## begreen (Dec 15, 2018)

bholler said:


> I get it batteries can be dangerous.  But that doesn't mean they can't be used safely and effectivly


There are new battery technologies evolving right now that will make this a moot point.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 15, 2018)

They left out global warming Bgreen.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 15, 2018)

I hope non poisonous batteries are the near future. It breaks my heart to see Chinese workers with cotton gloves & a dust mask sorting through pails of these things. Tesla recycles its batteries with its global partners.......


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 15, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> So safe that my friend died of throat cancer from lithium ion or lithium polymer batteries.


You would have to weigh that against people working in close contact with oil in the petro chemical industry and the related cancers to that industry and also cancers related to exhaust fumes ,a double whammy. Has to be in the millions.


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## bholler (Dec 16, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> I hope non poisonous batteries are the near future. It breaks my heart to see Chinese workers with cotton gloves & a dust mask sorting through pails of these things. Tesla recycles its batteries with its global partners.......


You do realize that is not how the vast majority of battery recycling is done right?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Dec 16, 2018)

bholler said:


> You do realize that is not how the vast majority of battery recycling is done right?


 I'm sure that is good news to the people dying from poison battery fumes. Lets hope the future is as Bgreen says.


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## bholler (Dec 16, 2018)

Singed Eyebrows said:


> I'm sure that is good news to the people dying from poison battery fumes. Lets hope the future is as Bgreen says.


And how many people is that?


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