# Is lack of on the road charging stations really the biggest obstacle?



## EbS-P (Apr 30, 2022)

I want hear your thoughts to the pole question.  I’ll give mine now.  Charging stations while important are less important that at home charging.  How many vacation (overnight trips more than 200 miles away from home) miles are driving annually vs commuting miles (200 miles  or less a day round trip to from home and back).   I will look this up.  My point. We should incentivize home chargers too.  And make all charging cheap.   I still don’t  know what Teslas charging rates are.  I’ve googled it. Didn’t find much.    I think we will find vehicle prices (which will be dominated by battery prices) as the biggest obstacle for the next 2-3 years.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

I think 90%+ of the time road charging stations don't matter.  But I still think the lack of them. Is still a big factor in people not being willing to take the leap to electric


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## peakbagger (Apr 30, 2022)

I see a lot of empty Tesla stations in my area. There is also a fundamental issue that unless the utility has special rates for charging during potentially peak periods is that the power to run the charge stations can be pricey due to peak pricing rates.  IMO, electric charging should be done off peak but on road charging rarely is off peak.  I find few folks who are on their own time enamored about hanging around a charging station, they seem to be far less upset when they are doing it on company time and treat it as coffee break.  On site charging at workplaces is problematical as the potential charge load is significant. power demand for the employer and all potentially on peak loads.


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## bholler (Apr 30, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> I see a lot of empty Tesla stations in my area. There is also a fundamental issue that unless the utility has special rates for charging during potentially peak periods is that the power to run the charge stations can be pricey due to peak pricing rates.  IMO, electric charging should be done off peak but on road charging rarely is off peak.  I find few folks who are on their own time enamored about hanging around a charging station, they seem to be far less upset when they are doing it on company time and treat it as coffee break.  On site charging at workplaces is problematical as the potential charge load is significant. power demand for the employer and all potentially on peak loads.


You also see lots of empty gas pumps as well.


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## SpaceBus (Apr 30, 2022)

EV charging doesn't make sense at a gas station, but it makes a lot more sense at a restaurant, grocery store, box store, or anywhere people will be spending more than fifteen minutes. Many people go to these places before and after work and/or on their own time. Employers offering it as a benefit could see an increased adoption rate as well, and potentially alleviate the need for at home charging.


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## Bobbob (Apr 30, 2022)

I think the two biggest obstacles facing electric vehicles are the expense for the average American to purchase an electric vehicle and our failing electric grid.  More preople can only afford used vehicles or less expensive new vehicles. And in some areas we already are seeing electric rationing especially during excessively warm periods. Even if 30% of Americans owned electric vehicles our system we would be overwhelmed...something the government has ignored so far


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## begreen (Apr 30, 2022)

Agreed. I think cost and battery range are the two largest factors. Lack of choice might be another. When there are affordable trucks and SUVs with ~400 mi. range, then I think the market will pick up. Many people charge at home so on the road charging might fall in fourth place.


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## Nealm66 (Apr 30, 2022)

I have a 1 ton dually diesel and fuel is around $5 a gallon. I’m really hoping when I retire in 6 years they have an electric dually and enough charging stations to get about pulling my 5th wheel.


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## peakbagger (May 1, 2022)

Bobbob said:


> And in some areas we already are seeing electric rationing especially during excessively warm periods. Even if 30% of Americans owned electric vehicles our system we would be overwhelmed...something the government has ignored so far


The vast majority of grid "rationing in the US is a policy planning issue rather than lack of generation. Until grid storage, be it pumped hydro, compressed air flow or batteries, is in place the current power generation system has a fundamental problem that the generation has to be there instantaneous to match the demand. Few rate structures incentivize (or penalize) adequately having industries and residential customers shift demand to periods when there is less demand. Bumping up peak period demand indiscriminately by putting in a large number of charging stations without demand management just makes things worse. Employer systems have the same issues, unless the employer is going to install load management on all the employee parking space chargers, they end up having to put in very large electrical system to handle the peak load in the morning when folks come to work.  

BTW Toyota has been fighting a fully electric fleet for several years, rather they have been advocating hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen electric vehicles due to the grid electric demand issue. Statistically the vast majority of passenger road vehicles are short haul, deal with that and spend the money on heavy transport over the road vehicles and its far less important to fully electrify passenger vehicles.


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## EbS-P (May 1, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> The vast majority of grid "rationing in the US is a policy planning issue rather than lack of generation. Until grid storage, be it pumped hydro, compressed air flow or batteries, is in place the current power generation system has a fundamental problem that the generation has to be there instantaneous to match the demand. Few rate structures incentivize (or penalize) adequately having industries and residential customers shift demand to periods when there is less demand. Bumping up peak period demand indiscriminately by putting in a large number of charging stations without demand management just makes things worse. Employer systems have the same issues, unless the employer is going to install load management on all the employee parking space chargers, they end up having to put in very large electrical system to handle the peak load in the morning when folks come to work.
> 
> BTW Toyota has been fighting a fully electric fleet for several years, rather they have been advocating hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen electric vehicles due to the grid electric demand issue. Statistically the vast majority of passenger road vehicles are short haul, deal with that and spend the money on heavy transport over the road vehicles and its far less important to fully electrify passenger vehicles.


Is Toyotas position being heavily influenced by Japanese policy and infrastructure and or is the US in a similar position or is it a business decision?


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## Nealm66 (May 1, 2022)

Man, in the past few years I’ve read about some amazing new technologies that are going to make internal combustion motors a thing of the past but I never see or hear anything more. I’d sure think with all the push for ev’s that these technologies would be fast tracked but maybe they flopped for some reason or maybe big oil bought them


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## EbS-P (May 1, 2022)

Nealm66 said:


> I have a 1 ton dually diesel and fuel is around $5 a gallon. I’m really hoping when I retire in 6 years they have an electric dually and enough charging stations to get about pulling my 5th wheel.


I don’t see the economics changing enough in 6 years to make this an option unless you are driving that rig A LOT!   even at 10$ a gallon at 10 mpg 10k miles  A year. That’s 10,000$. That down even cover the loans payment on a model Y.   Second tow behind  RV swill have integrated prolusion systems in the future.   The other option is a BEV class A.  I don’t see prices BEV  HD trucks being competitive with ICE trucks unless you are really putting the mileage on say 10K miles a year. Now it’s all depends on fuel prices.


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## EbS-P (May 1, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> I see a lot of empty Tesla stations in my area. There is also a fundamental issue that unless the utility has special rates for charging during potentially peak periods is that the power to run the charge stations can be pricey due to peak pricing rates.  IMO, electric charging should be done off peak but on road charging rarely is off peak.  I find few folks who are on their own time enamored about hanging around a charging station, they seem to be far less upset when they are doing it on company time and treat it as coffee break.  On site charging at workplaces is problematical as the potential charge load is significant. power demand for the employer and all potentially on peak loads.


We live close the Tesl charging station (less than 3 miles).  I’ve charged 10 times maybe only once was it over 1/2 full.  During the 3 mile drive I see on average 3 Teslas.  Now the other side of town. I see many many fewer Teslas.  So do more Tesla owners live and work and shop near the Supercharging station or are they their for the chargers?


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## Nealm66 (May 1, 2022)

Don’t they already have battery powered semi’s already that are more efficient than diesel? If so, I don’t see the problem making a decent 1 ton design but what do I know.


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## SpaceBus (May 1, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I don’t see the economics changing enough in 6 years to make this an option unless you are driving that rig A LOT!   even at 10$ a gallon at 10 mpg 10k miles  A year. That’s 10,000$. That down even cover the loans payment on a model Y.   Second tow behind  RV swill have integrated prolusion systems in the future.   The other option is a BEV class A.  I don’t see prices BEV  HD trucks being competitive with ICE trucks unless you are really putting the mileage on say 10K miles a year. Now it’s all depends on fuel prices.


I think 10MPG is pretty high for pulling a fifth wheel, but I do agree, diesel will probably be king for a while.


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## EbS-P (May 1, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I think 10MPG is pretty high for pulling a fifth wheel, but I do agree, diesel will probably be king for a while.


Easy math my grandfather used to pull a 29’ 15th with an 17’ bay liner behind that with a 95 power stroke.  I don’t remember what he got I do remember not ever going much above 60 mph.


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## Nealm66 (May 1, 2022)

I averaged about 10 ( depending on destination) with my 15 ram high output, haven’t pulled with the new one but guessing less with the higher torque/horsepower. Trailer is 40’ and about 15k. So why would they build the electric semi tractors if they’re so less economic? Or was that all bs


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## lsucet (May 1, 2022)

Nealm66 said:


> I have a 1 ton dually diesel and fuel is around $5 a gallon. I’m really hoping when I retire in 6 years they have an electric dually and enough charging stations to get about pulling my 5th wheel.


I don't think we will be saving any money in 6 years from now. The charging cost will also increase possibly the same rate we are paying now for gas or diesel. The point of going electric is not about saving.
It is how it looks now but I am sure that will change.
After all, these big companies will make their money as always. Maybe you will be paying more on registration fee, road taxes etc cause the weight of the vehicle and the roads.  Who knows what the future will bring.


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## begreen (May 1, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Is Toyotas position being heavily influenced by Japanese policy and infrastructure and or is the US in a similar position or is it a business decision?


It's a corporate decision and long-term roadmap set out by Toyota in 1997. They developed and optimized what is probably the most efficient and reliable hybrid system on the market. This started out in the Prius, but then expanded to the rest of Toyota's offering and was licensed by several other auto manufacturers to hybridize their fleets. They have sold some 17 million hybrids, so from a business move, it is successful. Now they are shifting to BEVs starting with the 2023 bZ4X built on the adaptable e-TNGA platform. We'll see what follows.


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## begreen (May 1, 2022)

lsucet said:


> After all, these big companies will make their money as always. Maybe you will be paying more on registration fee, road taxes etc cause the weight of the vehicle and the roads. Who knows what the future will bring.


It's a mix. With increased residential solar, the cost per mile can drop considerably. Registration fees are already boosted in several states due to the loss of gasoline tax revenues. Something has to pay for infrastructure. If the future brings truly autonomous vehicles, then general auto ownership may decline notably, especially in urban areas. Many already pay quite a bit to have the convenience of transportation at our disposal in the form of insurance, licensing and registration, taxes, parking space payments, etc. The next generation, retirees, apartment residents, etc. will be glad to drop that encumbrance.


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## EbS-P (May 1, 2022)

Nealm66 said:


> I averaged about 10 ( depending on destination) with my 15 ram high output, haven’t pulled with the new one but guessing less with the higher torque/horsepower. Trailer is 40’ and about 15k. So why would they build the electric semi tractors if they’re so less economic? Or was that all bs


I think it will be more economical at some point.   That point depends on a lot of factors.  The higher up front cost will be offset by fuel/maintenance cost reductions.  How many miles do you have to drive to start saving money?  I bet it’s a lot.  Not something the average RVer would likely do.  But an OTR trucker probably would.   Heavy Duty vehicle chargers will be a thing. But don’t exist now.  Even pull through charging stations are few and far between.


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## EatenByLimestone (May 1, 2022)

It is for me.   My small fleet of 7 trucks (soon to be 10)  will often put 250 miles a day on the clock.   Charging locations, and charging time are the main detractors of the technology.   At the current time, I don't have any apartment dwelling technicians,   but in March I did.   They were not in a position to charge at their place, and I really don't want to paythem to drive to some place they could charge.   Unfortunately many of them live in rural areas too, adding miles to their drives.   

So, in my family, my wife could drive an electric vehicle.   I could not.   At least not at this time.


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## EbS-P (May 1, 2022)

EatenByLimestone said:


> It is for me.   My small fleet of 7 trucks (soon to be 10)  will often put 250 miles a day on the clock.   Charging locations, and charging time are the main detractors of the technology.   At the current time, I don't have any apartment dwelling technicians,   but in March I did.   They were not in a position to charge at their place, and I really don't want to paythem to drive to some place they could charge.   Unfortunately many of them live in rural areas too, adding miles to their drives.
> 
> So, in my family, my wife could drive an electric vehicle.   I could not.   At least not at this time.


I really hadn’t considered those who live in apartments.   Charging stations at large complexes could  be an issue/amenity/profitable add on.  250 miles on a single charge for any commercial oriented truck I don’t see as an issue, but it’s probably on the high side for light/medium duty trucks. Fords  Transit EV is only 175 miles of range because I think they are targeting more urban delivery environment. 

 BEV in rural areas needs special attention.  We just as a state started addressing high speed Internet in rural areas.  We had college students relying on their phones and McDonald’s WiFi to complete multiple semesters of online courses during the past two years.  I see similar lack of affordable infrastructure for electric vehicles in Rural areas.   But the good thing is even rural place have electricity so the infrastructure backbone is in place.  

Charging Company vehicles brings up a good point.  I don’t see companies paying to install at home chargers for employees.  Larger businesses likely could sign charging contracts with companies that own the charging networks.   250 miles a day is doable for a truck and possible with a 12 hour 60 A chargers. 

Let’s just say you did want a fleet of ten EVs to charge at a single location overnight.  We are talking  500 Amps  for 12 hours. At this point would it require a substantial electrical service upgrade?   I know know anything about commercial electrical systems.  One might think power companies would get in on installing  chargers like the do lights.


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## woodgeek (May 2, 2022)

There are a LOT of apt/condo dwellers and folks without a dedicated parking space in the cities.
There are a LOT of people renting houses with parking but without an EVSE.

That would be well over half of the population in the US I'd bet.

My GF's family ask her about my EV.  Like how I charge it, etc.  They seem to assume that getting a charging system installed is a huge big deal.  She told them I did it DIY and they were surprised.


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## begreen (May 2, 2022)

It's a changing world. The fellow I bought our Volt from had a charging spot in his apartment and so does the one my son is moving into.


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## bholler (May 2, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> There are a LOT of apt/condo dwellers and folks without a dedicated parking space in the cities.
> There are a LOT of people renting houses with parking but without an EVSE.
> 
> That would be well over half of the population in the US I'd bet.
> ...


Yeah for me it wouldn't be a big deal to install a charger at all.  All 3 of my out buildings have enough power to run one already.   But many people don't have that at all


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## bholler (May 2, 2022)

begreen said:


> It's a changing world. The fellow I bought our Volt from had a charging spot in his apartment and so does the one my son is moving into.


Yes it is certainly getting more  common


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (May 4, 2022)

In my recent car purchasing experience I tried really hard to sell myself on a BEV. It came down to wanting an AWD option, or at least not a rear drive (I know that’s a big debate in the EV world). I also didnt want a Tesla bc of the lack of the tax credit and a certain person who I dislike quite a bit…

Was considering a VW ID.4 and had a reservation for one. That has 250 miles of EPA range, but you have to whack that down in the winter and when your driving with the weight of 4 people in the car.  While 250 sounded like a lot, I realize that was too close for comfort when taking a day trip to my in-laws about 100 miles away, in the winter and not many fast chargers available along the route. For me a BEV meant keeping an ICE on hand for those kind of trips. So my miles would be about 90% ev and 10% ICE. 

I landed on a RAV4 prime where I modeled out that 80% of my driving would be ev and 20% ICE and I don’t need to maintain two cars. So I realized that even with a BEV I would still be a hybrid driver, so why not just get a PHEV with really good EV range and one that still qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit? If range on EVs were just a little more and the fast charging infrastructure was more accessible and less bug prone it probably would have tipped me to the other side.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (May 4, 2022)

Also to the argument that says “if it meets 90% of your needs isn't that good enough?” I would ask how would you like if your roof leaked 10% of the time? That 10% that the BEV doesn’t meet the need is a real issue and was the deal breaker for me. But I’m totally supportive of everyone else who is taking the leap. I hope to the next time we need a car in a few more years.


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## woodgeek (May 4, 2022)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> In my recent car purchasing experience I tried really hard to sell myself on a BEV. It came down to wanting an AWD option, or at least not a rear drive (I know that’s a big debate in the EV world). I also didnt want a Tesla bc of the lack of the tax credit and a certain person who I dislike quite a bit…
> 
> Was considering a VW ID.4 and had a reservation for one. That has 250 miles of EPA range, but you have to whack that down in the winter and when your driving with the weight of 4 people in the car.  While 250 sounded like a lot, I realize that was too close for comfort when taking a day trip to my in-laws about 100 miles away, in the winter and not many fast chargers available along the route. For me a BEV meant keeping an ICE on hand for those kind of trips. So my miles would be about 90% ev and 10% ICE.
> 
> I landed on a RAV4 prime where I modeled out that 80% of my driving would be ev and 20% ICE and I don’t need to maintain two cars. So I realized that even with a BEV I would still be a hybrid driver, so why not just get a PHEV with really good EV range and one that still qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit? If range on EVs were just a little more and the fast charging infrastructure was more accessible and less bug prone it probably would have tipped me to the other side.



I"m glad you found a solution.  But as a person who drove a Bolt all over New England and NY in 2017-2018, I am having a hard time imagining that you did not find an adequate QC network in MA at this time.  I found plenty of QC all over (at least) back in the day. I have to imagine the network has grown since then. 

What does 'not many fast chargers' mean?  And did you contemplate topping off the charge at your in-laws?

I had a lot of trepidation about BEV road trips (and started doing them in 2015 with a 100 mile LEAF, when the network was quite thin).  Never got stranded, despite a few snags.  In the end, I became confident that there was always a workable plan, esp with a 250 mile BEV, and greatly enjoyed road tripping with it, despite taking the occasional out of the way detour.


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## SpaceBus (May 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I"m glad you found a solution.  But as a person who drove a Bolt all over New England and NY in 2017-2018, I am having a hard time imagining that you did not find an adequate QC network in MA at this time.  I found plenty of QC all over (at least) back in the day. I have to imagine the network has grown since then.
> 
> What does 'not many fast chargers' mean?  And did you contemplate topping off the charge at your in-laws?
> 
> I had a lot of trepidation about BEV road trips (and started doing them in 2015 with a 100 mile LEAF, when the network was quite thin).  Never got stranded, despite a few snags.  In the end, I became confident that there was always a workable plan, esp with a 250 mile BEV, and greatly enjoyed road tripping with it, despite taking the occasional out of the way detour.


I think there is a lack of charging infrastructure between cities. There are many places in the US outside of the densely populated areas that might see over a hundred miles without an EV charging station. That being said, even my tiny town of 2,000 residents has two or three public charging stations, which are almost always available. Rural folk will certainly be the last to adopt BEV's.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (May 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I"m glad you found a solution.  But as a person who drove a Bolt all over New England and NY in 2017-2018, I am having a hard time imagining that you did not find an adequate QC network in MA at this time.  I found plenty of QC all over (at least) back in the day. I have to imagine the network has grown since then.
> 
> What does 'not many fast chargers' mean?  And did you contemplate topping off the charge at your in-laws?
> 
> I had a lot of trepidation about BEV road trips (and started doing them in 2015 with a 100 mile LEAF, when the network was quite thin).  Never got stranded, despite a few snags.  In the end, I became confident that there was always a workable plan, esp with a 250 mile BEV, and greatly enjoyed road tripping with it, despite taking the occasional out of the way detour.



I did a lot of thinking about the trips we’d take - like totally nerded out and had a spreadsheet with each different EV and PHEV I was considering. Modeled my trips using the Better Route Planner app.

MA has a pretty good Level 2 infrastructure, but in the cases where I would need a DC fast charge, outside of Tesla stations there still isn’t a whole lot depending on where you are going. We also take a lot of trips into NH and VT and it’s a desert up there, even for Level 2 charges.

At this point BEVs are both a vehicle and a lifestyle choice in the accommodations you need to make. TBH I think I could do it, but the uncertainty would give my wife lots of anxiety.

The poll question asked if the charging infrastructure is a limiting factor to EV adoption. For me it was. I want BEVs to succeed, but they need to satisfy the “just get in the car and drive” folks in addition to the enthusiasts and early adopters. 

That all being said, will say that most people don’t understand home charging and that you’d hardly ever need a public charger. Most people could probably get by 90% of the time with a level 1 charger and would be perfectly fine with even a lower amped level 2. That assumes that they have access in a garage or driveway. More of a challenge for apartments and on street parking.


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## EbS-P (May 5, 2022)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> In my recent car purchasing experience I tried really hard to sell myself on a BEV. It came down to wanting an AWD option, or at least not a rear drive (I know that’s a big debate in the EV world). I also didnt want a Tesla bc of the lack of the tax credit and a certain person who I dislike quite a bit…
> 
> Was considering a VW ID.4 and had a reservation for one. That has 250 miles of EPA range, but you have to whack that down in the winter and when your driving with the weight of 4 people in the car.  While 250 sounded like a lot, I realize that was too close for comfort when taking a day trip to my in-laws about 100 miles away, in the winter and not many fast chargers available along the route. For me a BEV meant keeping an ICE on hand for those kind of trips. So my miles would be about 90% ev and 10% ICE.
> 
> I landed on a RAV4 prime where I modeled out that 80% of my driving would be ev and 20% ICE and I don’t need to maintain two cars. So I realized that even with a BEV I would still be a hybrid driver, so why not just get a PHEV with really good EV range and one that still qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit? If range on EVs were just a little more and the fast charging infrastructure was more accessible and less bug prone it probably would have tipped me to the other side.


I think Toyotas Prime line up is a good compromise.  Taking a Tesla off this list made it a pretty short one.   Elon may be a the richest jerk in the world but I do believe him when he says he slept in the factory to get the M3 line up and running.  Say what you want he is committed.  He has changed completely the dealership model. We won’t be going back.  His charging network plan and having it in place at the time of the M3 role out was critical.  He could have made a car with 600 miles of range but at what cost?  Fast and available chargers were is answer.  

To me 80-90% of the time is good enough.  I will keep my paid off ICE for as long as I can  for that 10-20%.  

To me the real answer is a car smaller than the M3 with 150 miles of range.  And a 2k5-33k $price point. Adding an EV seems like an easier sell than replacement of an ICE.  But we are Americans and and that probably won’t happen.  Maybe if gas goes north of 5$ and diesel over 7$.  But I don’t see how a government that supports the green economy could be elected at those prices.  Maybe if it creeps up over 6 years?


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## EbS-P (May 5, 2022)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> I did a lot of thinking about the trips we’d take - like totally nerded out and had a spreadsheet with each different EV and PHEV I was considering. Modeled my trips using the Better Route Planner app.
> 
> MA has a pretty good Level 2 infrastructure, but in the cases where I would need a DC fast charge, outside of Tesla stations there still isn’t a whole lot depending on where you are going. We also take a lot of trips into NH and VT and it’s a desert up there, even for Level 2 charges.
> 
> ...


I wouldn’t even advocate for level 1 charging at home.  Level 2 will be so much better.  Hardwired charges have the required GFI protection built in.  It don’t cost but an extra tandem breaker more.  If you are ready to take the the BEV plunge you better be ready to install a new dedicated charging circuit. 

But it supports my point that home charging really important.


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## gthomas785 (May 5, 2022)

The main drawbacks I see from charging stations is the time you have to wait for a level 2 charge, and level 3 chargers are what is not widely available. Charging @home is great, but many people do not have that option. If we are to achieve wide adoption of BEVs we will need at least some kind of convenient and fast charging option that is not hampered by grid capacity.

Now I know this is a wild idea, but..
What if they designed the cars so the batteries could be swapped out. Yeah I know they're big and heavy, but you could make a machine to do it. Then you drive up to the service station, unload your discharged battery and exchange it for a charged one, pay and drive off. The service center can then recharge the batteries off-peak for the next guy. Kind of like exchanging a bbq propane tank.

I can clearly see the reasons why it's not done this way, yet. It would require more batteries than cars to be in circulation which adds cost, plus some way to keep track of the battery condition and life span, the equipment to safely move batteries, not to mention a universal battery pack design shared between auto makers (gasp!), and then you'd need service stations all over the place to charge the batteries and have them available. But I think if we are doing BEVs for the long term, that kind of infrastructure would make a lot of sense especially for people who can't charge at home.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (May 5, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I wouldn’t even advocate for level 1 charging at home.  Level 2 will be so much better.  Hardwired charges have the required GFI protection built in.  It don’t cost but an extra tandem breaker more.  If you are ready to take the the BEV plunge you better be ready to install a new dedicated charging circuit.
> 
> But it supports my point that home charging really important.



Agreed. I see many people that are anti-BEV say “it takes hours to charge who wants to do that?” Not realizing that even a level 1 is capable of recovering most daily use - 90% of the time. 90% keeps coming up huh?

I don’t know if we will see public parking lots  filled with an enormous amount of Level 2 chargers. But we will see more strategically placed Level 3.  Basically replacing gas stations, but you only need them when traveling since you home charge. But that could shift to nighttime peaks when solar is unavailable (unless stored in a separate battery tied to the grid during the day).


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## EbS-P (May 5, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> The main drawbacks I see from charging stations is the time you have to wait for a level 2 charge, and level 3 chargers are what is not widely available. Charging @home is great, but many people do not have that option. If we are to achieve wide adoption of BEVs we will need at least some kind of convenient and fast charging option that is not hampered by grid capacity.
> 
> Now I know this is a wild idea, but..
> What if they designed the cars so the batteries could be swapped out. Yeah I know they're big and heavy, but you could make a machine to do it. Then you drive up to the service station, unload your discharged battery and exchange it for a charged one, pay and drive off. The service center can then recharge the batteries off-peak for the next guy. Kind of like exchanging a bbq propane tank.
> ...


I think Tesla demoed a quick swap once.  I think it only works if you lease the battery pack.  That is the most expensive component of the car.  Quick electrical connections and coolant connections are more prone to fail.    In general If we could double the charging fast DC charging rate a battery swap become almost unnecessary.  The solution is battery technology.   The same thing that has limited BEV adoption from the beginning.   Solid state batteries will offer a real improvements.  Utility companies need to get onboard NOW, but they don’t see any added profit as they are arealoselling the electricty. We have to use their infrastructure or build out own off grid solar system. (If I had a better location I totally would consider it.)


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## EbS-P (May 12, 2022)

Well written piece supporting my point home charging is more important that on the road charging.   I will say I think we need to 15-20 240V over level one.  Just to increase the capacity of each charger.  Most families have more than one car.  









						There’s a Cheap Solution to the Electric Vehicle Charging Conundrum
					

We shouldn’t want to reduce the amount of time we spend charging; we should want to eliminate active charging entirely.




					slate.com


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## semipro (May 12, 2022)

I'm starting to think that malfunctioning EVSEs are a big obstacle.  One that I regularly use near our favorite restaurant only works about half the time (BTW, without any sign of apparent damage or vandalism).  Apps like PlugShare help, and I report problems,  but EVSEs need to be more reliable.
Apparently, this is not uncommon. 








						Electric-car charging stations are becoming more common, but there's still one huge problem: Tons of them don't work
					

Researchers surveying public charging stations in California's Bay Area, a hotbed for electric cars, found that around 23% were inoperable.




					www.businessinsider.com


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## SpaceBus (May 12, 2022)

I think this forum is going to be a bit biased toward home charging as most users are homeowners.


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## EbS-P (May 12, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I think this forum is going to be a bit biased toward home charging as most users are homeowners.


I would advocate for zoning/building code changes to include a certain percentage of parking space at  any residential zoned property have wiring if not actuall chargers be installed.

Edit.  This is selling a product and I don’t see how this could not generate cash flow for some company.


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## begreen (May 12, 2022)

semipro said:


> I'm starting to think that malfunctioning EVSEs are a big obstacle.  One that I regularly use near our favorite restaurant only works about half the time (BTW, without any sign of apparent damage or vandalism).  Apps like PlugShare help, and I report problems,  but EVSEs need to be more reliable.
> Apparently, this is not uncommon.


I have given up on most EVSEs. It's pretty rare on a trip when everything just works. At least 25% have been broken or have another deficiency. Another 25% are often ICEd. Early Chargepoint EVSEs have a crappy design. The plastic screen fogs up badly due to UV degradation and the printing fades. I have seen more than one that is unreadable. I'm sticking with the Volt for now. It provides the best of both worlds.


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## begreen (May 12, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Well written piece supporting my point home charging is more important that on the road charging.   I will say I think we need to 15-20 240V over level one.  Just to increase the capacity of each charger.  Most families have more than one car.


That's not going to work well in large urban areas where most people are apartment dwellers or condo owners.


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## SpaceBus (May 12, 2022)

begreen said:


> That's not going to work well in large urban areas where most people are apartment dwellers or condo owners.


A lot of those people don't own cars anyway, they aren't needed. Folks who live in suburban sprawl but don't own homes both need a car and can't go EV due to renting.


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## gthomas785 (May 12, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> A lot of those people don't own cars anyway, they aren't needed. Folks who live in suburban sprawl but don't own homes both need a car and can't go EV due to renting.


There's no reason rental properties with parking couldn't also have chargers. Just like how apartment buildings can have laundry and trash pickup. It's up to the land lord to put it in, so it would need to make economic sense for them.

Places with only street parking would need to have chargers on the street. Same idea, just that now you're talking about a government entity installing and maintaining them.


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## lsucet (May 12, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> There's no reason rental properties with parking couldn't also have chargers. Just like how apartment buildings can have laundry and trash pickup. It's up to the land lord to put it in, so it would need to make economic sense for them.
> 
> Places with only street parking would need to have chargers on the street. Same idea, just that now you're talking about a government entity installing and maintaining them.


I think the cost to a landlord to create an infrastructure like that in his property will be really high. There are apartments with 4 and 5 adults leaving in it and with cars. How much will be the cost of the rent? The maintenance of something like that, will not be easy. Most of those apartments, they have to pay already to can have one of their cars under partial roof and is just one space per apartment. What about the rest of the cars? The manuever in those parking lots will not be easy.


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## EbS-P (May 12, 2022)

lsucet said:


> I think the cost to a landlord to create an infrastructure like that in his property will be really high. There are apartments with 4 and 5 adults leaving in it and with cars. How much will be the cost of the rent? The maintenance of something like that, will not be easy. Most of those apartments, they have to pay already to can have one of their cars under partial roof and is just one space per apartment. What about the rest of the cars? The manuever in those parking lots will not be easy.


If it’s at the code level it just part of the design and build/remodel cost.  Property owners could charge for EV charging spots or contract out the charging stations.  If the Government is dumping a lot of money into in road chargers they should dumps some, and I would argue equal amounts, into residential charging.   On street parking /charging just needs to be contracted to the electric utilities.  Most cases lines are overhead 
I don’t buy the it’s too expensive to install level 2. chargers.  It will have a cost it just needs to be accounted for,  passed on to the the consumer or subsidized.    

The changes the the NEC have increased cost and it’s passed on.  Anyone think NEC will  require some charging infrastructure in future versions?  Think of all the extension cords for portable Level 1 charges snaking out pulling 14 amps or more.


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## EbS-P (May 12, 2022)

begreen said:


> I have given up on most EVSEs. It's pretty rare on a trip when everything just works. At least 25% have been broken or have another deficiency. Another 25% are often ICEd. Early Chargepoint EVSEs have a crappy design. The plastic screen fogs up badly due to UV degradation and the printing fades. I have seen more than one that is unreadable. I'm sticking with the Volt for now. It provides the best of both worlds.


Tesla has a decent charging network and from what I read today will be adding CCS chargers to their stations.  You will get loyalty cards just like gas stations or you will get memberships like Costco.  I expect charging rates to head up to 50cents a KWh to cover the cost and maintenance of the chargers.  Higher of fuel stay above 4$   There is a reason Tesla removes free lifetime supercharging whenever a car is sold by a dealer. 

If you think you can’t do long mile trips read this.  








						5700 Mile Model Y Road Trip noob style
					

Sorry for the long post, I wanted to share our road trip experience as a positive example for other electric noobs like me. I have had a 2022 MYP since November 2021 and have over 13k miles on it so far.  I started in Sacramento early Saturday morning at 90 percent and drove to Salt Lake City...




					teslamotorsclub.com


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## gthomas785 (May 12, 2022)

Of course, there is a cost


lsucet said:


> I think the cost to a landlord to create an infrastructure like that in his property will be really high. There are apartments with 4 and 5 adults leaving in it and with cars. How much will be the cost of the rent? The maintenance of something like that, will not be easy. Most of those apartments, they have to pay already to can have one of their cars under partial roof and is just one space per apartment. What about the rest of the cars? The manuever in those parking lots will not be easy.


Of course it will have a cost. Landlords could easily pay it off by charging for charging or increasing rents due to the luxury of having off-street charging. If you build it they will come.
Yes poor people are left out as usual.


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## begreen (May 12, 2022)

Another option is charging ports built into lamp posts.








						How About Charging Your Electric Car From A Lamppost?
					

Some people can't install home chargers, especially if they live in the city in an apartment or condo. This company has come up with the perfect solution.




					insideevs.com


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## begreen (May 16, 2022)

And on that note, put lots of outlets in apartment and work parking areas too.









						There’s a Cheap Solution to the Electric Vehicle Charging Conundrum
					

We shouldn’t want to reduce the amount of time we spend charging; we should want to eliminate active charging entirely.




					slate.com


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## stoveliker (May 16, 2022)

Yes, I saw that one too.
The question is what all those outlets together will do around 5 pm when those cars plug in all at the same time (a similar argument has been made by peakbagger about charging at work), and the Slate article does not discuss - at all - this issue.


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## begreen (May 16, 2022)

That is beyond the scope of the article. It's going to be an issue regardless of where the cars charge. Not every car will need a full charge every night. Smart cars and a smart grid can time-space the charging interval. Even our car can be programmed to charge at off-peak times. A smart car can also supply the grid on demand. Load balancing will be part of the grid or perhaps local microgrids. The Netherlands is already testing solutions for this.


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## EbS-P (May 16, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> Yes, I saw that one too.
> The question is what all those outlets together will do around 5 pm when those cars plug in all at the same time (a similar argument has been made by peakbagger about charging at work), and the Slate article does not discuss - at all - this issue.


Duke already has load interupters on our AC/heatpump units and WiFi meters.  This is where the utilities come in. We could implement a network charger standard but I don’t see that happening so I think it will all happen at the utility level.   I could see a tiered program that gives an annual rebate based on the minimum 4pm-7am kWh delivered to the charger.  Say 25$ a year to Guarantee a minimum of 10 kWh.  10$ for 25 kWh.    Not sure that currently have the tech to measure usage at the device level but with a smart WiFi meter they could get close enough.


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## EbS-P (May 16, 2022)

begreen said:


> And on that note, put lots of outlets in apartment and work parking areas too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we need to scrap all level 1 and insist on level 2 at 15-20 amps.   How many extension cords are going to get strung out to make level 1 happen? What is the increased risk there? I tried to figure out how to do a 240v with my mobile adapter and the 15-20 amp 240v receptacles in the US are confusing and not widely available.  (I was trying to use and existing 12-2 plus ground circuit to avoid running a neutral).    There is no way for the car to know what the current capacity of the circuit is.


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## stoveliker (May 16, 2022)

begreen said:


> That is beyond the scope of the article. It's going to be an issue regardless of where the cars charge. Not every car will need a full charge every night. Smart cars and a smart grid can time-space the charging interval. Even our car can be programmed to charge at off-peak times. A smart car can also supply the grid on demand. Load balancing will be part of the grid or perhaps local microgrids. The Netherlands is already testing solutions for this.


I disagree; they state "this is the solution" without discussing boundary conditions/issues/problems with the proposed solution.

That's the same as me stating: all cars should have a mini nuclear reactor on board, as it solves all problems with electricity delivery, range etc. Of course this is a joke as it does not discuss the issues with that "solution".

The Slate article is not a joke, but arguing that it is the solution without discussing issues, is not a way that moves things forward.


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## begreen (May 16, 2022)

The article clearly states that this is not the only solution. The author's intent is to illustrate that planners need to break with the current gas station paradigm. This is similar to the idea of putting charging outlets in lamp posts. The point being that EV charging in urban areas needs to be much more ubiquitous with simpler solutions. It's not a technical article about engineering issues or boundary conditions.
_"The solution to the electric vehicle charging problem should fit current technology, not the technology of the prior century. Why should policymakers aim to copy gas stations when we can do so much better?"_


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## stoveliker (May 16, 2022)

Then why does it NOT fit current technology - as evidenced that some research is going on to mitigate the as of yet unresolved issues with the proposed solution.

I'm not against this idea (in fact, I'm quite strongly in favor), but touting something as a solution when it's not (nearly) there, raises expectations that should not (yet) be raised. 

Proposing solutions without addressing issues that NEED to be addressed for said proposal to even be a solution is a bad idea.

My proposal is then a solution too. Mini nukes on every car.

It should be instead discussed as a way to mitigate SOME of the issues in the de-carbonization of transport.

This is the same issue that plagues science: finding something good, and "selling" is as a solution to a problem. E.g. as in all (!) near-room-temperature superconductivity that invariably are touted as a solution to grid losses. When in fact all said superconductors only do so at practically useless high pressures.


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## begreen (May 16, 2022)




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## stoveliker (May 16, 2022)

If apparently we are going to play it personal: arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about and/or misconstrue what is said, and thus resort to ad hominems is tiring.

Re: misconstrue: I never said it was not useful, I never said it was the only solution they pushed. I said that something is not a solution if it has 1 good aspect, but more difficult issues that need resolving are conveniently ignored. At that point, it can be a nice, useful, and true pointer/hint, but it is by no means a solution. Promising such is just wrong and deceptive.

So goodbye.


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## woodgeek (May 17, 2022)

I thought the Slate article was poorly/annoyingly written, and not clear what it was saying.

I think we could benefit from some standardization of charging equipment for use on streets, apt buildings, workplaces.  Such as having the car communicate with the L2 charger via bluetooth (or modulated signals on the charging cable) to handle metering/billing.

In a personal garage, a dumb EVSE is fine.  If I was an apt owner or an employer I would be happy to install (and maintain) EVSEs, but I want nothing to do with metering/billing, or dealing with 'estimates' or enforcement or bill collection.

I see that as a simple engineering issue.  Ditch all the current shady 'networks' for L2 payment, and their inability to maintain their equipment.

Once a clear soln is available... public policy (and the marketplace) will get them installed all over.


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## begreen (May 17, 2022)

A big concern for ubiquitous street charging is theft. Tweakers can make a quick collection of a lot of copper. This is where wireless charging and perhaps battery swap stations look more attractive. I think China, the Netherlands, and Norway will guide solutions. They have much higher rates of EV adoption. Hope good solutions come from Europe. In China, theft is lower for now perhaps because they have cameras everywhere and facial recognition for every person. Welcome to big brother.









						Electric car charging cable theft could be the next car crime wave
					

An increase in thefts of charging cables for electric and plug-in hybrid cars is the number one concern for owners




					www.whatcar.com
				











						New Tesla Supercharger Station Vandalized: Every Cable Cut, Stolen
					

Tesla Supercharger stations, along with other public charging stations, are prone to attacks since they're typically unattended, along with being open 24 hours.




					insideevs.com


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## begreen (May 20, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> If apparently we are going to play it personal: arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about and/or misconstrue what is said, and thus resort to ad hominems is tiring.


Sorry, there was no intent to misconstrue words. Internet humor is hard sometimes.


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## Poindexter (May 25, 2022)

The biggest problem I see is home charging.  I get there are all kids of averages for this and that.  I came at this kind of sideways, lemme tell you a little story...

I am having both my  boiler and water heater replaced this month.  Had to move the laundry machines out of the way.  Finally was able to track down the 220vac/ 20amp breaker in the panel labeled "hot water heater" - the water heater coming out wasn't hooked to electric, just a hot water loop on the old boiler, same as the new one going in.

So I get all the old wiring out and now I have a spare 220 breaker - or two adjacent 110s - in my otherwise full to capacity breaker panel.  I have a 100amp service.  My local transformer is across the street in my neighbor's front yard, cable is buried under the street.  Power enters the house on the east wall, breaker panel is 30 feet away on the inside wall of the garage.  

Ripping out a bunch of drywall and tunneling a new wire under the street to upgrade my service is not happening.  So I read up on EV chargers.  My plan was (and is) to put "some kind of"  220volt outlet on the garage wall, covering up the hack job I just removed in the process.  I have a bit of a wood working hobby and would love to put in a 5 horsepower dust collection system. 

I am putting in a NEMA 14-30.  Receptacle is $14.99 at the home store.  8-3 with ground (Red, black, white and bare copper inside the outer jacket) is $6.68/ foot, need two feet to mount the receptacle in the same stud cavity the breaker panel occupies.  It happens to be where the big ugly hole in my drywall already is.  Metal junction box and junction box cover is going to be about $6.  I am going to use a piece of 3/4  plywood 16x34 inches to span three wall studs, have the receptacle on it, cover the hole in the drywall - and have a convenient adjacent spot of 3/4 plywood to mount an EV charger too.  30 amp breaker, about $60, GFCI of same not available local.  A couple conduit clamps, 48x48 half sheet of 3/4 plywood was $78 last week (sheesh!).

So really, to add a NEMA 14-30 in the same stud cavity as the existing breaker panel is under $200 in parts and a Saturday afternoon to do a first class DIY job.

I would be willing to put in a NEMA 14-50 for an EV charger - if I could find "smart breakers" that talk to each other.  I can look at my electric bill and see the wife and I average about 500 watts continuous, 12 kwh per day.  There is plenty of headroom on my 100amp main breaker, but for me to drop in a 50amp breaker I would want the breaker for say the cook stove to signal the other breakers "I am going to start up in 50 microseconds" so the EV charger would have an opportunity to reduce its current draw.  Same with the dryer and the boiler.  Or a dust collector.

I don't think I can safely put in a dumb 50 amp breaker, put a big dumb wood working machine on it and not start popping breakers.  I do see having an EV charger on a 50amp breaker allows the car to charge a lot faster than hanging it on a 30amp breaker.  While my home's incoming power wiring is not ideal, having the main buried in drywall for dozens of feet is also not unusual. 

FWIW I bought 10 feet of 8-3 with ground and have temporary hot water while the water heater is getting moved around on the floor day after day.  My new water heater is electric, but isn't hooked to the hot water loop on the boiler yet.  So for now I am heating hot water with my temporary electric cord.  

If I was doing a one and done I would think about buying two feet of 6-3 with ground in case a smart enough 50 amp breaker comes along later.  With 6 gage installed, upgrading to 50 amp service would be just replace the breaker and replace the receptacle, without having to open the wall.

In my situation it might make more sense to go with a hard wired EV charger so some yahoo (like me) doesn't come along and use the 50 amp circuit with dumb wood working machines instead of a smart EV charger.

FWIW I don't believe anyone ever when they start talking about free electricity, "free" EV charging.  Somebody is paying for the fuel that got burned to make steam to spin the turbines.  It may not be the owner of the car, but somebody paid money for the fuel that got burnt, and the plant operators didn't clock out for two hours of their 12 hour shift while they were making "free" charging for anybody's EV.

M2c, but at home charging in suburbia puts a pretty firm limit on how many miles you can drive a day, once you know the weight and Cd of the vehicle.  

If I owned say a 4plex I would have split electric anyway.  Putting in a NEMA 14-50 on each of the four subpanels at 4 parking spaces would be doable, even with locking all weather covers on them.  But setting up the electric panels so an outgoing tenant could take their hardwired brand X charger with them and an incoming tenant could have their brand Y charger hard wired instead is not a thing.  As the building owner I have to answer to the insurance company for all the wiring- but the tenants are responsible for what they plug into the building.  This is where hardwired chargers need to become universal.  Chevy-Tesla-Toyota - how about "car" kinda like we already have "dryer?"


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## woodgeek (May 25, 2022)

Poindexter said:


> FWIW I don't believe anyone ever when they start talking about free electricity, "free" EV charging.  Somebody is paying for the fuel that got burned to make steam to spin the turbines.  It may not be the owner of the car, but somebody paid money for the fuel that got burnt, and the plant operators didn't clock out for two hours of their 12 hour shift while they were making "free" charging for anybody's EV.
> 
> M2c, but at home charging in suburbia puts a pretty firm limit on how many miles you can drive a day, once you know the weight and Cd of the vehicle.
> 
> If I owned say a 4plex I would have split electric anyway.  Putting in a NEMA 14-50 on each of the four subpanels at 4 parking spaces would be doable, even with locking all weather covers on them.  But setting up the electric panels so an outgoing tenant could take their hardwired brand X charger with them and an incoming tenant could have their brand Y charger hard wired instead is not a thing.  As the building owner I have to answer to the insurance company for all the wiring- but the tenants are responsible for what they plug into the building.  This is where hardwired chargers need to become universal.  Chevy-Tesla-Toyota - how about "car" kinda like we already have "dryer?"



Thanks for the deets.  Sounds great to me.

Right now we don't have 'dryer', or even 'range' plugs. We have multiple 240V plugs (in old construction), often 3-wire, for both 30A and 50A service.  4-wire versions of both are commonly mandated in new construction, but if you purchase an appliance, they will sell you a separate cord with it.  And you can still buy the 3-wire receptacles to replace the old ones if they look janky.

I think most folks would be aok with a 240V 30A outlet.  240V at 24A (continuous rating) is 5.75 kW.  As for your limit, that works out to be (assuming a 12 hour charging cycle), 62 kWh into the battery per day (assuming 10% charging loss), or 125 mi/day in heavy winter, over 200 miles/day mild weather.  I'm sure there are some people who need to drive 3000 miles per month, who also have 100A panels, but they're not the majority.

If you shop for EVSEs, you can def buy them with any ampacity, hard-wired or any NEMA plug input, J1774 (not Tesla) or Tesla out.  Or a dongle on the output to do either.  Not an issue.

As for an apt building, hardwire a UL-listed EVSE with a J1774 and a reasonable power, and you're good.  If the renter wants to use a dongle for their Tesla, they can supply that.  With the UL-listing, your insurer doesn't care.  OR put in a 30A or 50A plug, and tell the renter to bring an EVSE if they want.  

IMO its just another appliance.  Some rentals have a washer/dryer, some make you buy your own.  If there's a central laundry room, the owner usually puts the appliance in (like a shared garage for EVSEs).  If its a private laundry room (like a private garage) you can just have a plug there for hookup.  I suspect that an EVSE is going to be lower maintenance and longer life than a lot of washer/dryers.


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## Poindexter (May 25, 2022)

I can't disagree with @woodgeek very hard.

When I look at an 'old' cook stove receptacle I see NEMA 10-50.  When I look at an old dryer outlet, I see NEMA 10-30.  For the new 4 wire stuff, change the "10" to "14," for NEMA 14-30 and 14-50.  

I am really not in a position to know if "most folks {in the lower 48} would be A-OK with an EV charging circuit at 220vac/30amp."  I have been up here in Alaska too long and am out of touch. I don't think it would be adequate up here in my house, for an EV to be used daily.

1. getting below half a tank of fuel in the wintertime (up here) is risky.  Just think of 'half' as 'E' and when you get there, fill up.  That way when (not if) you do get stranded on the side of the road, you are going to be able to stay warm for a few hours and not die.

2. I am in a five bedroom house walking distance to an excellent elementary school.  This tidbit was not explicated previously.  With a 100 amp service.  The utility usage of children is mind boggling.  The next owners of my house, most likely, will be one working parent, one stay at home parent, and at least three children already roaming the planet.  That will be at least one load of laundry daily, at least one dishwasher cycle daily, often two of each, and I am not confident a 12 hour charging cycle for the EV will be available.

Here, in really a rural area, it would make sense for the stay at home parent to have access to an ICE vehicle big enough to take all the kids anywhere, and maybe have the working parent commute in the EV.

3. There is also battery warming to consider in the winter months.  Indoor conditioned space is very expensive in Fairbanks.  My wife and I both park in the driveway year round.  I have a timer on an outdoor outlet that comes on around 0500 so when I hit the key on my truck at 0700 the battery heating pad, the heated cylinder head bolt and the transmission pan heater have all been running for two hours, at 1 kwh per vehicle per hour.     I have no idea how much current it would take to keep a larger battery pack warm, but I bet it would be more.  For both halves of a couple up here to both be parking in a heated garage 24/7/365 you are looking for one spouse to be well up in the high 6's dependably, and breaking into the low 7s for annual income about half the time.

I suspect Fairbanks will be one of the last places in the USA to go all in on EVs - but this does not mean woodgeek's points are without merit in the lower 48 and Hawaii.


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## EbS-P (May 27, 2022)

Poindexter said:


> The biggest problem I see is home charging.  I get there are all kids of averages for this and that.  I came at this kind of sideways, lemme tell you a little story...
> 
> I am having both my  boiler and water heater replaced this month.  Had to move the laundry machines out of the way.  Finally was able to track down the 220vac/ 20amp breaker in the panel labeled "hot water heater" - the water heater coming out wasn't hooked to electric, just a hot water loop on the old boiler, same as the new one going in.
> 
> ...


I’m perfectly happy charging hardwired 240v at 13 amps (same power as my electric griddle).  I can get 30 kWh per day on 12-2, cal it 100 ideal miles. I could bump it up to 16 amps.   Only needed 15’ of 12-2 and a tandem single pole to free up a spot and a regular double pole breaker. 

 I think the smart load monitoring chargers could maximize amount of charge especially when charging multiple vehicles.  Tesla chargers can be synced to unit max current but I think each one needs its own circuit. 

BEVs in cold weather presents a whole new set of challenges. Figure 1/2 to 1/3 epa rated rang.   I don’t know what the draw of the battery heater is.  Mine is resistive heat.  New ones are heatpump heat.   I’m not sure I would want the heatpump when it’s below zero.  It’s not just an northern tundra issue.  Any nights that get below 40 F and you loose regenerative breaking performance.  You can preheat battery on a schedule.  I could be wrong but the heat draws from the main battery and keeping a 1000+ pound battery pack warm when it’s cold would take some significant power and significantly reduce the life span of the pack. 

One could argue that public and workplace chargers in cold and rural regions are more important than in suburbia. Only needing to charge for a oneway commute and keeping the battery warm would reduce load on 100 amp services and possibly allow for 2 vehicles to charge at the lame time.  

But I agree when it’s winter never letting a fuel tank drop below half is good safe practice.  I grew up 15 miles from Towner Co.  The Towner bus tragedy was still discussed and everyone took winter driving in bad conditions seriously.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasant_Hill_bus_tragedy


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## begreen (May 27, 2022)

Yes, our home EVSE is a 25 amp unit, though the Volt charger only pulls 14 amps. That gives us 65 mi. summer driving range in a 4 hr charge which is plenty for our needs. Even if when we upgrade to a BEV that can draw more current, this setup will probably be sufficient. Fast charging is more important when traveling greater distances. 
I agree that extreme climate conditions will be challenging for EVs; they are for any vehicle. Many modern EVs have battery heating/cooling systems built-in which should help.


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## Poindexter (May 27, 2022)

I came at this looking for what to do with my spare breaker, and now I have been shopping EVs.  

I did see a possible contender.  The Mercedes Benz "Smart EQ for 2" is about double the footprint of my snowthrower, was discontinued in 2019; but might be a reasonable commuter.  1 occupant, stop by the grocery store on the way home from work, using only 15 miles, about a quarter of the smallest published (EPA 58 miles) mileage range.  It would fit in the garage easier than a full size car.   At 2300# it might do pretty good in snow with the correct tires under it.

EVO compare dot something rates its efficiency at 100 miles per 30kwh of charge.  I hadn't looked at that parameter before, but on a 220/30 circuit delivering 24 amps I come up with 12.5 hours charging time to have 100 miles of ordinary climate range - but the battery capacity is 17.6 kwh.  My 220/30 circuit at 24 amp draw would deliver 5.28 kwh per hour, so I could get from 'fumes' to full battery in about 3 hours and 20 minutes.  I would require some sort of electricity access at my office where I park outdoors to keep the battery from freezing.  I wonder what would happen to the mileage range of that little thing when the cabin heater and defrost are set to "welding torch."

It seems to me a good way to increase range is to decrease weight and decrease air resistance - or add battery size which increases weight.


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## begreen (May 27, 2022)

LOL, no EV that I know of has a "welding torch" heat output or anything near the quick heat output of a fully warmed up ICE vehicle. However, the smaller cabin of the Smart EQ should be easier to heat. Are there any running around Fairbanks? They would be the ones to ask about cold weather performance and issues.


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## EbS-P (May 27, 2022)

Poindexter said:


> I came at this looking for what to do with my spare breaker, and now I have been shopping EVs.
> 
> I did see a possible contender.  The Mercedes Benz "Smart EQ for 2" is about double the footprint of my snowthrower, was discontinued in 2019; but might be a reasonable commuter.  1 occupant, stop by the grocery store on the way home from work, using only 15 miles, about a quarter of the smallest published (EPA 58 miles) mileage range.  It would fit in the garage easier than a full size car.   At 2300# it might do pretty good in snow with the correct tires under it.
> 
> ...


Personally I think battery technology will see some great advances in  the next 2-3 year.  I don’t see how a BEV could be a replacement for an ICE in Fairbanks with today’s technology unless you really only needed 75 or less range a day maybe you could have enough juice to heat the battery up at work for the trip home and being green is worth the extra cost.    But I’m jus guessing.  Tesla had lots of issues with the heatpump and when it stops the car is disabled until it is fixed  because you can’t defrost the windshield.


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## peakbagger (May 27, 2022)

A lot of smart money is betting on solid state batteries. Toyota has a prototype shooting for 435 miles range with target of production in three years. There is possibility that the billions being spent on Lithium chemistry batteries will be obsolete soon after the plants are built.


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## begreen (May 27, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> A lot of smart money is betting on solid state batteries. Toyota has a prototype shooting for 435 miles range with target of production in three years. There is possibility that the billions being spent on Lithium chemistry batteries will be obsolete soon after the plants are built.


I read that the Volkswagen Group is also investing in solid-state batteries coming online around 2025. I had the same thought about the massive investments in lithium battery tech if they take off. The Ultium battery pack design that GM has developed at least seems more upgradeable and adaptable to different battery technologies. Allegedly it can even handle combos of different battery chemistries.


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## EbS-P (May 27, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> A lot of smart money is betting on solid state batteries. Toyota has a prototype shooting for 435 miles range with target of production in three years. There is possibility that the billions being spent on Lithium chemistry batteries will be obsolete soon after the plants are built.


I wonder how quickly they can retool for new batteries.   Really is a vehicle designed to use current batter Tech upgradable to new technology.  The software would all have to be updated but if the charging system hardware is the same one would think it’s possible.  Tesla is now using two different battery cells in the model Y.


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## peakbagger (May 28, 2022)

Changing software is relatively easy (for a factory). Batteries cells are small and there are lot of them. Think of them as Legos, they can be repacked into a different form factor pretty easily. Obviously, a clean sheet design is better but my guess is the limiting factor how quickly and the economics to retool the factories. The other aspect is if there is shift in chemistry, what rare earth materials suddenly become in big demand?


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## semipro (May 28, 2022)

begreen said:


> LOL, no EV that I know of has a "welding torch" heat output or anything near the quick heat output of a fully warmed up ICE vehicle.


An unexpected benefit of our Leaf with seat heaters, HP cabin heater, and steering wheel heater is that it warms up more quickly for short commutes when compared to an ICE.
In our ICE vehicle, the 1st half of my wife's 15 min. commute is cold despite the heated leather seats.  
Even without preheating, the Leaf feels much warmer, sooner.  My wife, who is prone to getting chilled, loves it.


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## peakbagger (May 28, 2022)

My Rav 4 Prime reportedly will not "start" below -20 F.  The reason is the Lithium battery does not put out adequate power at very low temps and the gas engine does not have a starter so no way to start the engine. I do have a cabin preheat mode that can be remotely activated if I want to pay for Toyota connect Ap fees. Otherwise I need to push a button on my key fob. Its a hybrid but the engine will not start to do the warm up during preheat but a electric heat pump tries its best to warm up the car (good to about 20 F). Anything below that and the engine starts and warms up to supply cabin heat. It also has an electric resistance heat on the bottom of the windshield to aid defogging and keeping the windshield wipers from freezing to the windshield. With a broken ankle last winter I didnt get to use it much in very cold weather so how everything comes together will have to wait until this winter. 

The rare Canadian versions have a larger DC to DC converter, a block plug and I think additional battery heating.

I and to a greater extent the Canadian owners see big electric range drops in cold temps. Seat and steering wheel heaters are nice but that in combination with the heat pump all eat a lot of power. I have met folks with Chevy Volts that stick a electric resistant heater into a wall plug and run it on timer to do a prewarm cycle.


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## begreen (May 28, 2022)

Yes, range can drop to half and deep cold is not good for lithium batteries. Still, ICE engine cars get poorer mileage and less range in the winter too, especially if they are left idling.  





It looks like the newest KIAs and Hyundais include a battery heater on their AWD models.



peakbagger said:


> I have met folks with Chevy Volts that stick a electric resistant heater into a wall plug and run it on timer to do a prewarm cycle.



That's may be because the Volt will switch to the generator to warm up the car when it gets below a user set temp of 15º or 32º.


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## EatenByLimestone (May 29, 2022)

So, towing in the winter is really bad, lol.   It’ll suck when we can’t fill up at the nearest station because somebody has deemed it unnecessary for 90% of driving.   

Think hiring somebody to do work for you is expensive now?  Just wait!  They push through a 2nd cash for clunkers and it’ll be pure, expensive chaos.


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## begreen (May 30, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Changing software is relatively easy (for a factory). Batteries cells are small and there are lot of them. Think of them as Legos, they can be repacked into a different form factor pretty easily. Obviously, a clean sheet design is better but my guess is the limiting factor how quickly and the economics to retool the factories. The other aspect is if there is shift in chemistry, what rare earth materials suddenly become in big demand?


Yes, these batteries still contain lithium. There is a ton of research happening in this area. Solid-state battery development is progressing. QuantumScape (VW) recently switched from a nickel-based cathode to an iron-based one. The anode is still lithium-based which has its continuing environmental problems of large volume water consumption used for mining. Solid Power (Ford and BMW) uses a silicon anode and a nickel-based cathode.  Toyota says that they are on track to deliver their first vehicle with a solid-state battery. It will be a hybrid, maybe a Prius? They have over a thousand patents in this area of battery technology and say they are on track for SSBs showing up in some of their cars by 2025. LG is also working on an SSB with an all-silicon anode.


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## peakbagger (May 30, 2022)

Long article about another source of Lithium








						A $1.5 billion lithium deposit has been discovered in western Maine, but mining it could be hard
					

Now partially exposed, the deposit is estimated to have a higher percentage lithium content by weight than any other in the world.




					www.mainepublic.org


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## begreen (May 30, 2022)

Good article. Thanks for sharing. Maine is not mentioned in the US Geological survey on lithium, probably because they need to exceed 15,000 metric tons. It makes one wonder how many other resources there are in North America yet to be discovered.


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## SpaceBus (May 30, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Long article about another source of Lithium
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read that article when it came out. I suspect they are being conservative on the amount of lithium present.


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## EbS-P (May 30, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> I read that article when it came out. I suspect they are being conservative on the amount of lithium present.


My Uncle was very active in the Maine geological survey.  He said this deposit has been know about for some time.  The property is owned by Irving Resources. mostly they deal with forest products but also petroleum.  Getting a mining permit through will take time and the odds aren’t great.  Time will tell.  I would like to think we will have a lithium replacement in the next 5 years…..


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## peakbagger (May 30, 2022)

I think you have the lithium deposits confused. Bald Mountain up in Aroostock County is a conventional sulfide deposit with zinc copper silver and other metals identified for decades. Mining it would cause the acid mine drainage issue that Maine has essentially banned. The Plumbago Mountain deposit near Bethel Maine is a long term location of various semiprecious gems, tourmalines, berols,  There is a very impressive mineral museum in Bethel Maine. The lithium in the Plumbago Mountain is in large quartz like crystals that are not associated with sulfide deposits. Its very different type of mining, no sulfides, no acid drainage.


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## SpaceBus (May 30, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> I think you have the lithium deposits confused. Bald Mountain up in Aroostock County is a conventional sulfide deposit with zinc copper silver and other metals identified for decades. Mining it would cause the acid mine drainage issue that Maine has essentially banned. The Plumbago Mountain deposit near Bethel Maine is a long term location of various semiprecious gems, tourmalines, berols,  There is a very impressive mineral museum in Bethel Maine. The lithium in the Plumbago Mountain is in large quartz like crystals that are not associated with sulfide deposits. Its very different type of mining, no sulfides, no acid drainage.


Oof, I do have them mixed up! Either way, lithium will be obsolete before they get a permit to mine the stuff.


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## peakbagger (May 31, 2022)

There is firm Wolfden resources that has been trying to develop a similar to the Bald Mountain project in Pickett Mtn northeast of Baxter State Park.   And another project in Pembrook Maine. The prior Maine governor who is running again and his supporters actually changed to mining laws in Maine for a short period but they were soon changed back. https://downeast.com/arts-leisure/battle-bald-mountain/ Gem grade minerals extraction has been going on in Western Maine for decades probably over 100 years with no acid mine drainage, but the concern is that any legislation to change the mining law to allow a pegmatite mining  would open the door to sulfide mining. For those with their eyes on the relative short term, sulfide mines put a incredible amount of money and jobs into a local economy especially with the incredible demand for the proven reserves of copper that can be extracted relatively easily. The problem is along with the minerals are sulfides and that leads at a minimum to long term acid mine drainage which will trash a watershed. The methods used to separate the minerals from the waste product is also potentially very toxic. The temptation by developers and local politicians is to take the money and run while the mine is active leaving a toxic legacy. 

Ultimately there is a huge demand for copper and the transformation to an electric economy is going to need more copper resources. It comes down to what country in the world is willing to host long term waste sites once the mining is over.  Canada used to play it loose and arguably is still doing so with Crown lands but Wolden has been selling investors that Maine could be an easier regulatory structure to deal with.


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## EbS-P (May 31, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> There is firm Wolfden resources that has been trying to develop a similar to the Bald Mountain project in Pickett Mtn northeast of Baxter State Park.   And another project in Pembrook Maine. The prior Maine governor who is running again and his supporters actually changed to mining laws in Maine for a short period but they were soon changed back. https://downeast.com/arts-leisure/battle-bald-mountain/ Gem grade minerals extraction has been going on in Western Maine for decades probably over 100 years with no acid mine drainage, but the concern is that any legislation to change the mining law to allow a pegmatite mining  would open the door to sulfide mining. For those with their eyes on the relative short term, sulfide mines put a incredible amount of money and jobs into a local economy especially with the incredible demand for the proven reserves of copper that can be extracted relatively easily. The problem is along with the minerals are sulfides and that leads at a minimum to long term acid mine drainage which will trash a watershed. The methods used to separate the minerals from the waste product is also potentially very toxic. The temptation by developers and local politicians is to take the money and run while the mine is active leaving a toxic legacy.
> 
> Ultimately there is a huge demand for copper and the transformation to an electric economy is going to need more copper resources. It comes down to what country in the world is willing to host long term waste sites once the mining is over.  Canada used to play it loose and arguably is still doing so with Crown lands but Wolden has been selling investors that Maine could be an easier regulatory structure to deal with.


Your breadth of knowledge never ceases to amaze me!


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## begreen (May 31, 2022)

Meanwhile, on the non-lithium front, some interesting progress out of Texas. 








						Researchers develop alternative to lithium batteries
					

Lithium-ion batteries are currently the preferred technology to power electric vehicles, but they're too expensive for long-duration grid-scale energy storage systems, and lithium itself is becoming more challenging to access.




					techxplore.com


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## UpStateNY (Jul 22, 2022)

i  can get to my sons house in NH on a full charge with a quick 30 minute charge up somewhere in-between.  No problem . I arrive at my sons house with little charge left In Brentwood, NH.  Now how do I charge it back up to 100%.  There are no fast chargers near my sons house.  Charging time on 120 volts is close to 3 days.   This does not work for me.  Maybe my son will someday buy EV and get a fast charger installed.  Until then EV for me will have to wait.


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## EbS-P (Jul 22, 2022)

UpStateNY said:


> i  can get to my sons house in NH on a full charge with a quick 30 minute charge up somewhere in-between.  No problem . I arrive at my sons house with little charge left In Brentwood, NH.  Now how do I charge it back up to 100%.  There are no fast chargers near my sons house.  Charging time on 120 volts is close to 3 days.   This does not work for me.  Maybe my son will someday buy EV and get a fast charger installed.  Until then EV for me will have to wait.


But if your son had a level2 charger…….


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## peakbagger (Jul 22, 2022)

Is it part of hosting duties that the host has to supply a charging station and free power for guests?  
My guess is in southern NH there are level 3 stations available not that far away.


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## EbS-P (Jul 22, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> Is it part of hosting duties that the host has to supply a charging station and free power for guests?
> My guess is in southern NH there are level 3 stations available not that far away.


That’s more economical than the parents supply EVs to all children.  I have way to many for that


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## woodgeek (Jul 23, 2022)

UpStateNY said:


> i  can get to my sons house in NH on a full charge with a quick 30 minute charge up somewhere in-between.  No problem . I arrive at my sons house with little charge left In Brentwood, NH.  Now how do I charge it back up to 100%.  There are no fast chargers near my sons house.  Charging time on 120 volts is close to 3 days.   This does not work for me.  Maybe my son will someday buy EV and get a fast charger installed.  Until then EV for me will have to wait.



If his breaker box is in his garage, you add a 14-50 outlet next to the box for less than $100 worth of parts, and you plug your portable 30A L2 EVSE (maybe $300) that you got with your EV into that.  And can recharge in 10-12 hours, not a problem if you are staying overnight.  And give him $15 for the juice.

I have been doing something similar with my Sisters house (250 miles away), but I can recharge on L1 (12A) in <48 hours, which is about how long I usually stay.  So that works.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 27, 2022)

Another towing test.   I keep watching, hoping it will equal out.   Maybe some day it will.


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## EbS-P (Jul 27, 2022)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Another towing test.   I keep watching, hoping it will equal out.   Maybe some day it will.



Only when you get 50kwh or larger  battery in the trailer.  Eventually someone will come out with a 200kwh tow rig.  I’ll keep my ICE on the road just to tow.  And vacation in.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 27, 2022)

Hmm, a battery in the trailer.   Thats interesting.   I hadn't thought of that.. 
 Instead of that, I wonder if a trailer mounted ICE hooked up to a generator could back feed the battery while driving?   It'd make that electric truck into a hybrid when the demand was there.  It might not take a large engine to significantly extend the range and it could continue charging when you stop to eat./sleep.


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## EbS-P (Jul 27, 2022)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Hmm, a battery in the trailer.   Thats interesting.   I hadn't thought of that..
> Instead of that, I wonder if a trailer mounted ICE hooked up to a generator could back feed the battery while driving?   It'd make that electric truck into a hybrid when the demand was there.  It might not take a large engine to significantly extend the range and it could continue charging when you stop to eat./sleep.


I think you have brought up one case where more DC fast chargers would be better than one at home.  I’ve been contemplating how to do a camping road trip with a large family in an EV and it’s only possible if I pull a trailer.  Remote and rural areas do need more chargers.


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## ABMax24 (Jul 27, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Only when you get 50kwh or larger  battery in the trailer.  Eventually someone will come out with a 200kwh tow rig.  I’ll keep my ICE on the road just to tow.  And vacation in.



That's gross for both trucks. 0.7mile/kwh for the lightning and 8.9 mpg for the 6.2L Sierra are both unimpressive, and those trailers aren't that big, 6000lbs isn't very heavy for a travel trailer.


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## EbS-P (Jul 27, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> That's gross for both trucks. 0.7mile/kwh for the lightning and 8.9 mpg for the 6.2L Sierra are both unimpressive, and those trailers aren't that big, 6000lbs isn't very heavy for a travel trailer.


I didn’t watch it. I’ve seen a lot TFL videos.  Tesla uses watt hours per mile.  Ford had to be different, or was it Tesla.  Yeah it was Tesla.   1.4 kWh per mile.  Search TVL for Model X towing.  They pulled a 5000# trailer. Can’t remember what they got.  At the end of the day I really hope EVs encourage super light camping trailers.  Aerodynamic too.    Was it a toy hauler camper?   That so American(Canadian too??).  Let’s get a big trailer that can hold ALL our stuff to pull our big toys behind our big truck.   If North America wasn’t so big I’d downsize my vacation plans and gear but I’m 2200 miles from the Grand Canyon and 2500 miles from Glacier NP.  Both and my camping vacation list.  Want to RV with an EV look up Alto trailers


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## begreen (Jul 27, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> That's gross for both trucks. 0.7mile/kwh for the lightning and 8.9 mpg for the 6.2L Sierra are both unimpressive, and those trailers aren't that big, 6000lbs isn't very heavy for a travel trailer.


6000# is about twice the weight of our family's 21' Shasta trailer when I was growing up. And we had 6 people in it, don't ask me how.


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## ABMax24 (Jul 27, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> I didn’t watch it. I’ve seen a lot TFL videos.  Tesla uses watt hours per mile.  Ford had to be different, or was it Tesla.  Yeah it was Tesla.   1.4 kWh per mile.  Search TVL for Model X towing.  They pulled a 5000# trailer. Can’t remember what they got.  At the end of the day I really hope EVs encourage super light camping trailers.  Aerodynamic too.    Was it a toy hauler camper?   That so American(Canadian too??).  Let’s get a big trailer that can hold ALL our stuff to pull our big toys behind our big truck.   If North America wasn’t so big I’d downsize my vacation plans and gear but I’m 2200 miles from the Grand Canyon and 2500 miles from Glacier NP.  Both and my camping vacation list.  Want to RV with an EV look up Alto trailers



Yeah it was a toyhauler, but empty of course. Yes they are common here too.

IME weight doesn't make as big of a difference as wind resistance, by my estimation the GCW of my unit is 8,000lbs heavier than the Sierra and trailer in the video, and I averaged 10.5mpg the last 2 weeks (granted with a more efficient diesel engine). I've looked a few times to try to make my trailer more aerodynamic, and it seems long trailers are more efficient, as are ones with a lower roofline. But a funny point I found was many suggested reversing the trailer body on the trailer frame, because most trailers have a more rounded nose with a flat rear end, where in reality a blunt nose with a rounded rear end would net better fuel mileage.

EV's would actually shine pulling heavier trailers (if the trucks could come with 300kwh batteries to get decent range), because in hilly terrain a traditional truck wastes kinetic energy as heat in the brakes or exhaust brake on a downhill grade, where the EV would recharge the batteries.

I have seen the Alto Trailers (and similar units) lots, a lot of them go by here in the spring with US plates headed to Alaska pulled by smaller vehicles, returning south in late summer. Just recently I was actually curious to know about fuel mileage as well, and was quite unimpressed with what I found. In particular I found a blog where a user was getting 25-28 mpg with a Subaru outback when empty, but pulling an Alto was down to 14-16mpg at 50-55mph, and 11-12mpg at 60-65mph. My big truck and large RV getting 10.5mpg is no impressive feat, but I feel less bad about it knowing downsizing to half-ton gas truck and small trailer wouldn't really net any fuel mileage gains.


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## ABMax24 (Jul 27, 2022)

begreen said:


> 6000# is about twice the weight of our family's 21' Shasta trailer when I was growing up. And we had 6 people in it, don't ask me how.



We had a 19' Triple E trailer with 5 of us in it, I think it would have been in the 4500lb range.

Times have changed though, its harder to find a family sized trailer with bunks now under 6,000lbs. Much in the same way a standard pickup used to be under 200hp, now many are over 400hp and the Lightning is supposed to be 563hp.

To circle back to the premise of this thread though, charging stations will really be the determining factor in using EV's as standalone RV's or to tow RV's. For the short term it seems a fast charging station would be needed at least every 100 miles to make their use a reality.

What would be really cool would be a rental range extending battery that could be placed in the front of the truck bed (of course with supporting hardware from Ford), an additional 100kwh pack would really help out the lightning.


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## EbS-P (Jul 28, 2022)

East of the Mississippi I bet you could have one every 100 miles minus a few spots.  I looked how many Tesla chargers are  100 miles from  me and was impressed.  

As far as towing mileage goes, a 40-60% reduction is normal.  My dad  get 16 mpg towing an 1800# pop up Alto with his 2019 Sienna.  13 in the mountains.  I really think it speaks to the ingenuity that gets high mpgs out of our current vehicles.  Really I see towing as recreation.  I’ll budget what I can and and fuel usually doesn’t break the budget.    The idea of electric two vehicles is really new.  And I’m sure once battery costs and weight comes down there will be more options.


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## woodgeek (Jul 28, 2022)

I'd also be happy renting an ICE truck for some task like moving houses or pulling a camper a couple times a year.

No vehicle will be all things to all people.


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## begreen (Jul 28, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I'd also be happy renting an ICE truck for some task like moving houses or pulling a camper a couple times a year.
> 
> No vehicle will be all things to all people.


That's often a smarter move. Hauling the kids to school and shopping for groceries in an F250 is not the best use of transportation.


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## Poindexter (Jul 30, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> No vehicle will be all things to all people.


I would go one further and say no one vehicle can meet any one persons total transportation needs.

One vehicle that meets 85-90% of my needs is a really good match.  I am still going to have to rent a moving truck when we move house.  I have my cordwood delivered to my driveway, because it makes no sense for me to drive a dually stake bed truck all year to the grocery store so I have it in March when I need 8-10 cords of firewood.

Having a trailer, even a small one, can open a lot of options for a smaller vehicle if you got room for the trailer.  With my woodworking hobby, if I find sticks I want that are 14 feet long (my truck has a six foot bed) I can just pay for the wood and bring my trailer next time around.  Handy for plywood too if I need more than two sheets for something.


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## EbS-P (Jul 30, 2022)

I was killing time and counted 12 Tesla Superchargers within 100 miles of me.   I know for a fact there are other DC fast chargers in town.  If Tesla  only sold affordable cars…..


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## EbS-P (Aug 3, 2022)

Here is a solution for apartments.  Tesla will allow paid for charging at level 2 Tesla wall chargers as long as the owner has 6 or more units.   

They dropped the price to 400$ a unit.  With the ability to set a group of chargers to limit combined current draw this seem like a workable small scale solution.   









						Tesla enables paid charging at Destination Chargers, but there's a catch
					

Tesla is enabling paid charging at Destination Chargers, which have generally been free up to this point, but there’s a...




					electrek.co


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## ABMax24 (Aug 3, 2022)

I left this on another forum, but I've found out why private EV chargers in my province are non existent. The distribution fees for a standalone charger make EV charger prohibitively expensive.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 3, 2022)

There has to be a catch.   $400 each wouldn’t even pay for the installation cost.


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## EbS-P (Aug 3, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> I left this on another forum, but I've found out why private EV chargers in my province are non existent. The distribution fees for a standalone charger make EV charger prohibitively expensive.


So as the owner of a commercial property I would have to pay these rates on any chargers I install? Even if  it’s just a 240v. ??


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## EbS-P (Aug 3, 2022)

EatenByLimestone said:


> There has to be a catch.   $400 each wouldn’t even pay for the installation cost.


The destination chargers are the same as the wall chargers they sell (and I bought and installed).  400$ is just the unit.  It’s yours you pay for install. And now I guess you can Register your chargers and have Tesla manage billing. (I’m sure they take a decent cut).  You would then get to set rates and get a check from Tesla.


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## ABMax24 (Aug 3, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> So as the owner of a commercial property I would have to pay these rates on any chargers I install? Even if  it’s just a 240v. ??



My understanding is that is not the case. If you install a level 2 charger at a hotel for example it would be the standard rates.

This is for a dedicated EV Fast charging station, for example the Tesla Superchargers.

Which after seeing this means Tesla is charging cars at a significant loss in Alberta.


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## EbS-P (Aug 3, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> My understanding is that is not the case. If you install a level 2 charger at a hotel for example it would be the standard rates.
> 
> This is for a dedicated EV Fast charging station, for example the Tesla Superchargers.
> 
> Which after seeing this means Tesla is charging cars at a significant loss in Alberta.


Or consumers are paying very high rates.  There is not a lot of free supercharging being offered anymore.  It add some value to the used Teslas where it can be transferred via private sale.


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## boomfire (Aug 3, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> Places with only street parking would need to have chargers on the street. Same idea, just that now you're talking about a government entity installing and maintaining them.



I would like to see how that works? Street parking is limited in places like brooklyn (I lived in brooklyn for more than a decade), with alternate parking rules and street cleaning. Let us say if they installed in a few spots on the street and enforced rules that ICE cars cannot park on those spots, It will be a not a happy scenario as those cars are not going anywhere anytime soon and have to compete for parking in a crowded neighborhood. I am guessing retaliatory steps of breaking those would be common. Somedays i had to spend 1 to 2 hours just driving around looking for a spot on street to park or until someone pulls out (anyone who lived in urban areas with an apartment and street parking will understands this)

I am not saying it is not doable, it will be painful for everyone.


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## gthomas785 (Aug 3, 2022)

boomfire said:


> I would like to see how that works?


How about every spot gets a charger. People will fight over them just like they do now.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 24, 2022)

This just popped up on my feed this morning.


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