# Looking for non epa compliant wood burning stove



## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

I need to buy a new woodstove.  Looking for a non epa compliant stove.  The one I have now is an Ashley ec95 circulator.  I don't really like the circulator, doesnt heat my house well enough.  I used to have a soapstone which brokedown. 

 So I am looking for companies that make good woodstoves that can heat up to 2000 square feet.  Not looking for a soapstone either.  Looking for a solid meaty stove that can handle up 23" logs, and has good burn time also.  Price wise...... something under $2000.  Thanks.


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## BCC_Burner (Aug 15, 2015)

Just want to be the first voice in the coming chorus of answers that tell you to buy an EPA approved stove.  You'll get a lot more heat out of a lot less wood, and you'll be generating less pollution as well.  There are no valid reasons to purchase and install an exempt stove nowadays unless you are looking to buy and restore an antique stove.


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## JA600L (Aug 15, 2015)

Can I ask why you don't want Epa certified?


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

Really here we go with the environment bs.  I am looking for what I am looking for thanks.  I see them still sold everywhere from different companies.  I am just looking for a good company that sells that type of stove.  I don't want anything with epa on it.  My ashley isn't epa cert and that's almost new.  And how can they be antique if I am finding companies still selling non epa cert stoves????


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

I don't want anything with a catalytic converter on it.  It doesn't produce the heat.  I know that for a fact.  Actually someone show me the results of an epa cert stove outperforming a non epa cert stove and I will take a second look.  My stove is in a basement and I need the power to heat the whole house 2000 Sq ft.  I loved my hearthstone soapstone h1 series pre epa.  What an awesome stove.


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## begreen (Aug 15, 2015)

Sounds like you will have to find an old smoke dragon used for that criteria. Modern stoves produce more heat with less wood. I would look for another Hearthstone H1 in good condition. They show up used fairly frequently and parts are still available if it needs fixing. If you go to the classics forum here you can see an H2 being rebuilt. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/1985-hearthstone-ii.143670/  Maybe he has a lead on one for you? Otherwise I would head over to Woodstock stoves in W. Lebanon, NH and see their Ideal Steel in action. It's a good heater.
http://www.woodstove.com/ideal-steel-hybrid

PS: Blaze King catalytic stoves are commonly used in AK and Northern Canada. They heat full sized homes, but like any stove they require seasoned wood to perform well. Most complaints we see here about catalytics and other stoves is because the wood is not seasoned. This is particularly true with folks burning semi-seasoned oak, hickory,etc..


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## Ashful (Aug 15, 2015)

Wealthy republican capitalist pig dog here (me, not you...), and I'll be the first to tell you that efficiency has everything to do with extracting more heat from less wood.  I'm running two 3.0 cu.ft. stoves, and anything I can do to cut down on wood usage is of interest to me, environment being only a secondary consideration.  With a catalytic stove running 200F chimney temps, versus a non EPA running 500F on the flue, you'd have to be a flat out moron to deny you're not keeping more of your hard-earned BTUs in the house, versus up the flue.

Me?  I'll take 30 hour burn times, higher efficiency, and less frequent flue cleanings, at almost any price.  The "environmental BS" is just gravy.


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## begreen (Aug 15, 2015)

FWIW, many of us here have been burning for decades in old stoves and newer ones too. I still have our old Jotul 602 (non-epa) out in the greenhouse. I had to relearn burning habits and be sure my firewood was dry all the way through in order to get the most out of new stoves. Now I wouldn't go back if you gave me the stove. Note that the early Hearthstone soapstones were some of the early attempts at clean burners. That's why they have the upper baffle and secondary burn tube.


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

What about Ashley?  How bout this someone give me a list of epa cert stoves that produce heat for 2000 Sq ft or more for under $2000.  And I want to read the reviews on them.  I don't want to be disappointed.  I don't want another soapstone too much money.  $5000 for one comparable in size to my h1, no thanks.  

How bout cast iron?  I don't want anything with glass doors either hate cleaning them.  Ashley ec 95 is nice but doesn't push the air all the way to the back of the upstairs part of the house.  My soapstone would put the house at 80-90 degrees f and keep it there for a while.


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

I am not trying to piss in anybodys pond talking about the environment, I just want a stove that will last more than 10 years hold its weight and produce the heat I want it to.  Last year here in vt we burned about 10 cords.  Half way through the winter I went to the ec95 ashley because my soapstone was imploding on itself.  Yes imploding.  Now my ec 95 needs firebrick after just one year of use ugh.  I way overload that thing trying to get my heat.  But with pipe Temps of 700 all the time I see I'm loosing heat up the flu.  Yes you are right.  I don't want this.


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## begreen (Aug 15, 2015)

Is the basement insulated? If not about a third of the wood burned, one cord in three, is going out the walls to heat outdoors. In that case insulating the basement walls is the most effective way to heat better with the same stove.

The stove is an area heater which means that heating from a basement is often very inefficient. How well does the heat get out of the basement? How hot does the basement have to get in order to have the first floor at say 70F when it's 10F outside?


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## JA600L (Aug 15, 2015)

If you want a solid whole house heater for under $2000 do as Begreen mentioned and go for a visit to Woodstock Soapstone company in NH. 

They built a steel hybrid stove that is a serious bang for your buck. Also,  they would listen to and be informative about your desires and set backs.  You can check their website for reviews.  Built in the USA.


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## tcassavaugh (Aug 15, 2015)

i think the problem you're going to have is the under $2000 price. stoves aren't cheap any more. i'm not keen on cat stoves either but my experience was long ago and using not so seasoned/dry wood. now, the blaze king manufacturer has gotten my interest. i have a PE Summit in the basement that in order to heat the whole house (@2300sq ft 1200 downstairs and 1200 upstairs) that i have to run pretty high to accomplish that. i have a little Jotul F3 CB that i can heat the upstairs with nicely with the only drawback being having to feed it often because of the smaller wood box. i've thought about a princess to replace the jotul but its a little larger than i would like. the jotul fits nicely. 
good luck with your search.


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## begreen (Aug 15, 2015)

The 23" wood requirement puts this into the old smoke dragon category. Modern stoves that take that size wood are typically side loaders and over budget. Wood length will be an issue with the Ideal Steel, the Englander 30NC and the Drolet HT2000 which would be first choices at this price otherwise.

Maybe look for an old Cawley LeMay, Hearthstone or Nashua.


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## jeff_t (Aug 15, 2015)

Grandpa Bear?


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## Grisu (Aug 15, 2015)

For a large budget stove check out the Englander 30NC (e. g. at Home Depot) and the Drolet Myriad and HT2000. Especially for the Englander you will find many happy owners here when you do a forum search. Drolet is also well-liked but not as common. You could also look at the Jotul F55. They currently have $300 off when you trade in a pre-EPA stove (http://jotul.com/us/campaign). With that you will come close to the $2000. 

What kind of chimney do you have? Those all need a 6" diameter flue, usually with a minimum length of 15 ft and preferentially insulated. 

How dry is your wood? When you don't want to waste a ton of heat up your flue it needs to be split and stacked about 2 years in advance, especially here in VT where summers are short.


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## kennyp2339 (Aug 15, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> What about Ashley?  How bout this someone give me a list of epa cert stoves that produce heat for 2000 Sq ft or more for under $2000.  And I want to read the reviews on them.  I don't want to be disappointed.  I don't want another soapstone too much money.  $5000 for one comparable in size to my h1, no thanks.
> 
> How bout cast iron?  I don't want anything with glass doors either hate cleaning them.  Ashley ec 95 is nice but doesn't push the air all the way to the back of the upstairs part of the house.  My soapstone would put the house at 80-90 degrees f and keep it there for a while.


I will be more than glad to do all the research for you for a small fee$$. Never mind, I don't want to work for you; you sound pretty demanding


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## JA600L (Aug 15, 2015)

23" is asking a lot.  The Ideal Steel can handle 22" splits left and right. A few 23" splits would fit on an angle.


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## sparklow (Aug 15, 2015)

I've got a stove for you if you are willing to drive down to Tolland, CT to pick it up. 370 lbs. of boiler plate, cast iron, and refractory and the best heating wood stove I ever owned. I bought the stove new, used it for maybe ten years and since then it has sat in my downstairs family room. It is a Kickapoo Starlor built in Wisconsin and is in very good shape, needs nothing. It is a massive heater and easily heated my colonial. Stove takes 24" logs. Picture attached -


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## JA600L (Aug 15, 2015)

sparklow said:


> I've got a stove for you if you are willing to drive down to Tolland, CT to pick it up. 370 lbs. of boiler plate, cast iron, and refractory and the best heating wood stove I ever owned. I bought the stove new, used it for maybe ten years and since then it has sat in my downstairs family room. It is a Kickapoo Starlor built in Wisconsin and is in very good shape, needs nothing. It is a massive heater and easily heated my colonial. Stove takes 24" logs. Picture attached -



That's one hot rod of a Woodstove there.

Is it efficient and ul listed?


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## tcassavaugh (Aug 15, 2015)

sparklow, that thing is a Beast.....lol


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## quotejso (Aug 15, 2015)

According to Woodstock soapstone company their progress hybrid  has the highest btu output on the market. Of course it is epa and all that stuff.


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## bholler (Aug 15, 2015)

quotejso said:


> According to Woodstock soapstone company their progress hybrid has the highest btu output on the market. Of course it is epa and all that stuff.


You do realize that those epa regulations made much better stoves.  I understand you don't give a crap about the environment and that is your prerogative.  But by burning cleaner that means your chimney is cleaner and has much less chance of a chimney fire.  They also burn efficiently which means more heat out of each piece of wood.   If you don't like cat stoves don't get one get a tube style stove they are generally cheaper and the good ones are a little easier to maintain than most cat stoves.  But most of the biggest modern stoves have cats.   Yes there are still some epa exempt stoves out there but they generally are not very good stoves.  All of the good manufacturers have switched over and are selling compliant stoves.  As far as not wanting to clean the glass burn it correctly and you wont have to


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## jeff_t (Aug 15, 2015)

bholler said:


> Yes there are still some epa exempt stoves out there but they generally are not very good stoves.  All of the good manufacturers have switched over and are selling compliant stoves.



I think the OP experienced this with the Ashley circulator  If someone really wants a smoke dragon, they need to look for a solid, old stove. 

EPA regs have been a blessing to wood burners.


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## bholler (Aug 15, 2015)

jeff_t said:


> If someone really wants a smoke dragon, they need to look for a solid, old stove.


Yes there are some good old stoves out there for sure some of them like mine can even burn pretty cleanly.  And although i love my old stove when i have the funds i will replace it with a bigger cleaner stove for sure


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## claydogg84 (Aug 15, 2015)

I've got a Vermont Castings Defiant you can buy, but you've got to come pick it up in Dutchess County, NY. $350, PM me for details and pictures.


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

Okay since everyone has been talking about epa stoves, let's try this.  Let's assume for a minute I wanted a wood stove that could handle let's say 22" logs, my downstairs is insulated, 6-8"piping, "EPA cert"  heats up to let's say 2200 Sq ft that's including two floors, has no glass, can burn some wet wood, doesnt let all the heat go up the pipe, strong reliable, no cat convert, and can last up to easily 10 years, also $2000 or less. What are my options????


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## bholler (Aug 15, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> can burn some wet wood



Ok you will not be happy with wet wood in any new stove.  And honestly you would be amazed by the difference in your old stove by burning good wood.  Any stove will burn wet stuff but non will do it well. 




ruffrider said:


> has no glass



You will be hard pressed to find a new stove with out glass but like i said before if you burn it right the glass will be clean.  




ruffrider said:


> 6-8"piping


Is it 6" or 8"




ruffrider said:


> doesnt let all the heat go up the pipe


That depends on how you burn it if you burn it wide open you will send allot of heat out of the stove no matter what stove it is.




ruffrider said:


> and can last up to easily 10 years


Just about any stove will easily do this unless you regularly over fire it.

The englander nc30 would probably be your best bet it only takes 20" logs though few new stoves take over 20"


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## Grisu (Aug 15, 2015)

Already mentioned: Englander 30NC, Drolet Myriad, Baltic, Legend or HT2000, Woodstock Ideal Steel in the base package and when you pick it up in Lebanon, NH. Jotul F55 with coupon of $300 should be close (~$2200). The Timberwolf 2300 and Osburn 2400 would be other options. You will have to check which ones of those handle 22" logs but all are ~3 cu ft in firebox size and should be able to heat moderately insulated 2000 sqft. For reference, I have a 2 cu ft insert and heat 1300 sqft in Chittenden County with it. Treated properly, all of those stoves should easily last 10 years. The Ideal Steel has a cat that may need replacement about every 5 to 8 years (~$200). 

However, it cannot be stressed enough: Any stove needs dry wood. Water does not burn. You may think that in a pre-EPA stove you can burn wet wood but what you actually do is boil the water from the splits and send it up the flue. You waste a ton of heat that could be used to warm your home. You said you burnt 10 cords last winter. Use dry wood and a modern stove and that will go down to 5 cords. No one could get me to spend all the time and labor to process 5 additional cords each year just because I don't like the "EPA-certified" label.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 15, 2015)

The 20" log didn't jive with my memory.  I went downstairs to my 30 and it'll take 22".  I know I've fit 24" logs diagonal on more than one occasion. 

If you never clean the glass, why do you care if it's there or not?  Dry wood will at most leave ash on it. 

For the price, the NC30 cant be beat.  It can be bought under $1000 all around.  I've seen it offered for the upper $500s on sale here.  It's not my favorite stove, but durability and heating ability have never been questioned.


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## bholler (Aug 15, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> The 20" log didn't jive with my memory. I went downstairs to my 30 and it'll take 22". I know I've fit 24" logs diagonal on more than one occasion.


ok i dont have one just going by their specs but in that case it fits the order


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## jeff_t (Aug 15, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> ...6-8"piping



Do you have a metal class A chimney, or venting into masonry? New stoves need decent draft that an oversized, cold masonry chimney usually doesn't provide.


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

My chimney has a metal insert inside that needs cleaning every season.  There are bricks on the outside and metal on the inside.  I don't care if I have to change to a stainless steal double walled pipe on the outside of the house.  I think it might look better.  It's a tall chimney too.


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## bholler (Aug 15, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> My chimney has a metal insert inside that needs cleaning every season. There are bricks on the outside and metal on the inside. I don't care if I have to change to a stainless steal double walled pipe on the outside of the house. I think it might look better. It's a tall chimney too.


If you have a stainless lined masonry chimney there is no reason to change to class a.  What size is that liner and is it insulated?


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## JA600L (Aug 15, 2015)

http://blog.woodstove.com/2012/01/catalytic-combustors-wet-wood.html?m=1The Ideal Steel has a cat and secondary burn tubes. The cat is $125 dollars to replace. 3 year warranty.

In regards to your wet wood dilemma, a cat or hybrid stove may have a better chance at burning less than dry wood as the stainless foil cat becomes active at 500 degrees vs the tube stoves at 1000 degrees.  The Ideal Steel has both technologies in it. Not saying you should burn wet wood, but if your going to do it you need something that can run at lower temperatures.


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

The size is....... 8 or 9" oblong.  And I don't know if it is insulated or not.  This chimney was built a long time ago.  Back in the 90's.


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

The englander looks nice


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## bholler (Aug 15, 2015)

Well built in the 90s it could be insulated or not and by 8 or 9 oblong do you mean an 8 or 9 inch pipe ovalized or an oval 8 or 9 inches at its widest?


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## bodhran (Aug 15, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> The englander looks nice


I had the Timberwolf 2300 in my house last year. Stove is rated for 3500 sq feet and my house is 1100 sq feet. Was hitting temps of 36-38C within a couple of hours of burning. Too hot for me and I sold it for $500. A $2000 stove...but anyway. Timberwolf has a 3 cubic foot firebox, takes a 22 inch junk,  is non cat and will heat the crap out of your house


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## ruffrider (Aug 15, 2015)

The pipe/liner is 8-9" id oblong.  That's the best I can tell you.


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## JA600L (Aug 15, 2015)

Sounds like an 8" liner.  Most newer stoves including the NC30 will work best with a 6" liner.  Not many stoves use 8" anymore.


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## Grisu (Aug 15, 2015)

It sounds like you are coming around but I suggest you go to the Woodstock factory in Lebanon and check out their plant yourself. You will see that there are no sinister EPA bureaucrats in black suits but hard working folks from VT and NH who take pride in the engineering and manufacturing of their stoves. They will explain to you how their stoves can deliver the "goods" with much less wood than older stoves and maybe you even see and feel one "in action". This is the impression another new member came back with after his visit to the Woodstock facility: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...rn-nh-hearthstone-dealer.144788/#post-1953335
There is a reason they are regularly lauded for the quality of their stoves and their exceptional customer service. 

Not saying that you should not buy an Englander or any other modern stove. Simply trying to show you how much better stoves have become.


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## sparklow (Aug 15, 2015)

The Kickapoo Starlor that I posted earlier is indeed for sale at $400. This stove is a beast, has a five cubic foot firebox, and can easily hold a fire for 14 hours. It is the ideal stove for a basement install as it is rated at 50,000 btu's and is capable of heating a large area. I would often put whole six inch or a split eight inch logs in this stove and didn't have to attend it again for hours. I will list it in the classified section of this forum soon if anyone is interested.


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## bodhran (Aug 15, 2015)

sparklow said:


> The Kickapoo Starlor that I posted earlier is indeed for sale at $400. This stove is a beast, has a five cubic foot firebox, and can easily hold a fire for 14 hours. It is the ideal stove for a basement install as it is rated at 50,000 btu's and is capable of heating a large area. I would often put whole six inch or a split eight inch logs in this stove and didn't have to attend it again for hours. I will list it in the classified section of this forum soon if anyone is interested.


You shouldn't have any trouble selling that one.


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## MaintenanceMan (Aug 16, 2015)

Might not quite fit your bill, but Buck makes an EPA exempt stove called the Little John. It handles a 22" log and is 2.8 Cu Ft firebox I think. No real glass to speak of. My local dealer carried them on sale last year for around $600 new. Solid looking heater. 

http://www.buckstove.com/little-john.html#.VdCJT5dLV1M


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## quotejso (Aug 16, 2015)

MaintenanceMan said:


> Might not quite fit your bill, but Buck makes an EPA exempt stove called the Little John. It handles a 22" log and is 2.8 Cu Ft firebox I think. No real glass to speak of. My local dealer carried them on sale last year for around $600 new. Solid looking heater.
> 
> http://www.buckstove.com/little-john.html#.VdCJT5dLV1M


I thought the pea exempt stoves get away with it because you can't really shut the air down all the way so they always are in free burn clean burn


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## Oldman47 (Aug 16, 2015)

If you really want a non-EPA stove you had better act fast. They are already forbidden to manufacture them and after the new year they are forbidden to sell the ones that are in the stores.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 16, 2015)

Startling with your attitude will only get you attitude. You came here, we didn't search you out.
You have a pre Epa that ain't doing the job, and now you want another non Epa.
If your already finding companies, why are you here? Go ahead slap down some more cash on a stove you're obviously going to blast the shtiz out of, and then come back complaining about that stove.
You don/t want EPA, you don't want cat, you don't want glass.
Heating from a basement in many situations is already a strike against any stove.
Your ol H1 probably "brokedown" cause you fired the crap out of it. I would bet you overfired it on a daily basis. And if that is true, no stove is going to survive what you plan to put if through.

You want a list, you want this, you want that.
I suggest you do your due research as we all have. Then come back with a few choices in mind, then ask for help to narrow your choice down.
Otherwise, the only list you're going to get is a suggestion to go look on Craigslist, and buy the biggest heaviest stove you can find, for the cheapest cost, then come back and let us know how long that lasted and how it worked out.

10 cords a year is 2x to 3x what most on here burn with a non-epa.
80-90 degrees seriously?
You want it all, but your expectations are not in line with reality.
Just get yourself a wood furnace and be done with it.

You lost about 1/2 the good folks that would be willing to help with your beginning attitude.
I'd say welcome.... but, nah


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## ruffrider (Aug 16, 2015)

Besides you mr hog wild everyone has helped me. Re read the thread.  Over fire this.  But hey THANKS FOR THE INPUT ON A WOOD FURNACE.  I think you helped me there.


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## bholler (Aug 16, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> Besides you mr hog wild everyone has helped me. Re read the thread. Over fire this. But hey THANKS FOR THE INPUT ON A WOOD FURNACE. I think you helped me there.


Ignore him he gives pretty good advice but can be quite grumpy lol.  Although i will agree that your initial attitude was quite poor you seemed to have listened to us at least a bit and have changed your tune some.  Looking at a good wood furnace is not a terrible idea but many out there are not very good so do your research.


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## ruffrider (Aug 16, 2015)

B holler thanks.  Thanks to everyone.  I just thought a non epa stove was the best.  I grew up with non epa stoves.  And they gave the heat.  I guess it is time to look at diff things.  The englander looks nice


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## brenndatomu (Aug 16, 2015)

bholler said:


> Looking at a good wood furnace is not a terrible idea but many out there are not very good so do your research.


Agreed.
And if you are gonna start your shopping locally, IMO, there is only one model available at big box stores that is even worth a look, just FYI. (made by Drolet)


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## JA600L (Aug 16, 2015)

I think a lot of us started out hating the Epa idea.  I used to heat with a thin gauge smoke dragon.  I had all these ideas on how I was going to modify it.  The more I read on here I realized just how bad of an idea that was. Now I have one of the most efficient stoves on the market and I would never go back.

   I also picked up lots of good advice on insulating my basement. You should pay close attention to those comments.  I am also on the 3 year wood seasoning program. 

Efficient stove, good insulating, and 3 year seasoned wood is a winning combination.


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## brad wilton (Aug 17, 2015)

J.a roby ultimate wood stove 3800sqft 25inch logs epa certified has a hook up to run two pipes like a furnace heats my stone uninsulated stone house with ease.it is in canada but withexchange rate around 1200 bucks i paid 1700 tax in on special vermontsnot to far


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## Hogwildz (Aug 17, 2015)

Happy overfiring..... make a spot next to the H1, or several for that matter...
The only problem with a furnace, is it will eat just as much wood as the non epa stoves.
There is some better than others.


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## brad wilton (Aug 17, 2015)

Hey hogwildz,it's not a furnace,but they made it so you can run pipe from it to some floor registers to help bring up heat from basement


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## bholler (Aug 17, 2015)

brad wilton said:


> Hey hogwildz,it's not a furnace,but they made it so you can run pipe from it to some floor registers to help bring up heat from basement


If it has take offs for ducts it is a furnace.


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## jeff_t (Aug 17, 2015)

Well, it looks like a stove, but where do you hook the ducts?
http://woodstoves.net/j.a.roby/ultimate-wood-stove.htm

How much usable firebox is there, @brad wilton? Have you ever measured it? Never heard much about this stove, and you're the only regular poster I know of that has one.

*I see it's an option under 'pricing'. I looked at the manual, but it doesn't show how it's hooked up.


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## brad wilton (Aug 17, 2015)

The dome on top has two round plates that you can punch out and connect ducts it comes with a plate to seal of vent for blower to force air up pipes .never tried but the blower i have i think it would do good job.the option is for the blowers one is twin fan and one is basket fan .i would say 22 inches side to side i find it to be a very good heater no complaints so far knok on wood lol .maybe considered a hybrid? I use as a stove and works fine.i guess i will have to write a little review like jeff_t said it's not very well known


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## ruffrider (Aug 17, 2015)

So my next question is, is any epa cert stove have a cat convert on it?


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## brad wilton (Aug 17, 2015)

Mine isn't it depends on maker


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## Grisu (Aug 17, 2015)

I quote myself:


Grisu said:


> The [Woodstock] Ideal Steel has a cat that may need replacement about every 5 to 8 years (~$200).



All other large cat stoves should be out of your price range but when you want to take a look: BlazeKing stoves, Woodstock stoves, several Buck stoves, Kuma Sequoia, some newer models from Regency and Lopi


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## Grisu (Aug 17, 2015)

brad wilton said:


> J.a roby ultimate wood stove 3800sqft 25inch logs epa certified has a hook up to run two pipes like a furnace heats my stone uninsulated stone house with ease.it is in canada but withexchange rate around 1200 bucks i paid 1700 tax in on special vermontsnot to far



Do you know whether your stove is UL-listed for the US? A stove tested for US-specs still needs an ULC-label; I don't know how it works in reverse.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> So my next question is, is any epa cert stove have a cat convert on it?


Yes, several. Other than Woodstock stoves they have not been mentioned due to budget constraints (>$2000) and an expressed dislike for cat stoves.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2015)

The Roby Ultimate is EPA listed, but at 7.1gms/hr tested it may be heading off the list as of next January due to the new 4.5gm limit. Obidiah's sells Roby stoves for now in the US. We don't know how well this stove will stand up, it is a fairly new model. It should not have to be pushed as hard due to its large size if fully seasoned wood is being burned. With unseasoned wood results could still be disappointing. 
http://woodstoves.net/j.a.roby/ultimate-wood-stove.htm


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## CountryBoy19 (Aug 17, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> B holler thanks.  Thanks to everyone.  I just thought a non epa stove was the best.  I grew up with non epa stoves.  And they gave the heat.  I guess it is time to look at diff things.  The englander looks nice


 As a freedom loving, EPA hatin' American, I too, was very hesitant to cave into buying anything the EPA had forced upon me. But I caved in and I can say that I LOVE my EPA certified stove/fireplace. It burns clean, it burns efficient (meaning I burn less wood for the same heat input to my home), and it can really put out the heat. Yes, initial cost is a bit higher, and it may take a bit more maintenance, but overall I'm satisfied.

FWIW, mine came with a 25 year warranty, which should easily meet your "lasts 10 years" requirement. You may have to replace firebricks and other parts, but it should last...


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2015)

CountryBoy19 said:


> As a freedom loving, EPA hatin' American, I too, was very hesitant to cave into buying anything the EPA had forced upon me. But I caved in and I can say that I LOVE my EPA certified stove/fireplace. It burns clean, it burns efficient (meaning I burn less wood for the same heat input to my home), and it can really put out the heat. Yes, initial cost is a bit higher, and it may take a bit more maintenance, but overall I'm satisfied.


 Good deal. There is a learning curve with a new stove, especially when switching from a non-EPA stove to a modern one. But once you get it dialed in and adjust burning habits they heat great. When you get a chance can you add your stove (fireplace?) to your signature line? Is this the Kozy?


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## firefighterjake (Aug 17, 2015)

Like many others here the whole burning clean thing was not really a major factor in my decision to go with an EPA stove . . . I mainly liked the idea of getting the same amount of heat (if not more) while burning less wood. Burning less wood = more time and/or more money in my pocket. 

That said, once you have a stove burning with a secondary burn (a non cat stove) and think you may have inadvertently opened a portal to hell in your woodstove . . . or see those lazy flames slowly dancing in the fire box . . . or have the secondary "fireworks" occasionally burst at the top part of the firebox with little to no flames on your wood . . . you will be mesmerized. And then there is the whole first month deal where you will inevitably have a clean burn going with a secondary burn or cat engaged . . . and you will rush out to see little to no smoke coming from your chimney . . . and at this point while you revel in the idea of burning so stealthily so that none of your neighbors even know you are burning you will may start to think "Maybe this whole EPA stove thing isn't so bad."

I suspect folks who went through the change over in the 1980s may have a bit of a sour taste in their mouth as early tech in those days wasn't the greatest . . . and then there was . . . and still is . . . the learning curve . . . the big thing being that both cats and secondary burners really need well seasoned wood to maximize the heat and ease of use. Cutting in the summer to burn in the fall may work OK for older stoves, but it generally doesn't work so well with EPA stoves.

Keep learning . . .


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## brad wilton (Aug 17, 2015)

Sooner or later i think were all going to cat stoves with emissions getting lower and lower


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2015)

Not necessarily. Most stoves fall below the 4.5 gm limit. That has been the WA state standard for awhile. The inexpensive 30NC is quite a clean burner at 1.6g/hr..


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## JA600L (Aug 17, 2015)

begreen said:


> Not necessarily. Most stoves fall below the 4.5 gm limit. That has been the WA state standard for awhile. The inexpensive 30NC is quite a clean burner at 1.6g/hr..



Do you think those stoves will pass if they ever use real cordwood vs the current test fuel.


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## quotejso (Aug 17, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Do you think those stoves will pass if they ever use real cordwood vs the current test fuel.


Yea my englander always puts out smoke maybe my wood ain't the driest but it smokes especially after reload.

E


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## bholler (Aug 17, 2015)

quotejso said:


> Yea my englander always puts out smoke maybe my wood ain't the driest but it smokes especially after reload.


Any stove is going to smoke some at startup or reload untill what ever the secondary combustion is gets up to operating temp.  and the fact that your wood is not the driest will make it smoke more and for a longer period of time


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## Hogwildz (Aug 17, 2015)

brad wilton said:


> Hey hogwildz,it's not a furnace,but they made it so you can run pipe from it to some floor registers to help bring up heat from basement


I was talking about a furnace. No sense wasting time and money on a stove, when the job calls for a furnace.


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## Ashful (Aug 17, 2015)

Hogwildz said:


> I was talking about a furnace. No sense wasting time and money on a stove, when the job calls for a furnace.


Sometimes expectations can be lowered to meet the situation, as is my case.  I set out four years ago to heat 100% with wood, having seen so many here do it, but have only managed a 50% reduction in use.

Like you, I have concerns about the OP over-firing any stove they buy.  Some comments made in the first few post have me thinking this guy has a habit of running them hard.  I'm just waiting for the, "this new stove is a POS thread," but hoping I'm wrong on that.


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## begreen (Aug 17, 2015)

We'll see plenty of "This stove sucks" threads in a few months. Happens every year as folks try to burn unseasoned wood, or run the stove with the air control open, or replace a 5 cu ft radiant smoke dragon with a 2 cu ft modern convective model on a 9 ft chimney. Dad noted long ago that a poor worker always blames his tools. Most come around once they start listening.


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## CountryBoy19 (Aug 18, 2015)

begreen said:


> Good deal. There is a learning curve with a new stove, especially when switching from a non-EPA stove to a modern one. But once you get it dialed in and adjust burning habits they heat great. When you get a chance can you add your stove (fireplace?) to your signature line? Is this the Kozy?


 Yes, Kozyheat Z-42, I added it to my signature... at least I think I did, this post will be the test to see if it's actually there


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## stovelark (Aug 18, 2015)

Don't think many folks mentioned Osburn stoves-  good bang for the buck, hard to beat the Englander though.  This just sounds like an older gentleman who is averse to change.  I hated going to unleaded gas too, but can't imagine trying to breathe today had we all not.  Not many stoves going to handle 24 inch pieces of wood, 18 to 20 is the norm nowadays.  Hey, he will come around-  we all do.


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## begreen (Aug 18, 2015)

An Osburn 2400 should do the job. I mentioned Drolet which is the inexpensive version of the Osburn. The HT2000 gets good reviews for a strong heater. For less money there's the Myriad/Baltic/Austral stoves in the Drolet line.


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## stovelark (Aug 18, 2015)

I agree with BG.  The Osburn 2300 (new model of the 2300) would be a good choice.  We sell the 2300 (blk door, blk overlay with pedestal and blower) for 1799, the 2400 (without blower) for 1699, both would be heat hammers, provided good dry seasoned wood is used.


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## ruffrider (Aug 18, 2015)

Can I still find the stove called the allnighter?


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## Ashful (Aug 18, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> Can I still find the stove called the allnighter?


I don't know, but if you buy a modern Blaze King, you could call it the "all night, next day, and following all nighter."  Burn times under 30-40 hours are no longer a point worth mentioning.


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## bholler (Aug 18, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> Can I still find the stove called the allnighter?


You can find used ones but they are just another big old smoke dragon.  Nothing special about them yeah if you load it up and shut it way down they will burn all night but they will also fill your chimney with creosote doing it especially with wet wood


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## JA600L (Aug 18, 2015)




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## bholler (Aug 18, 2015)

Yeah nothing special about them really he is full of it.  As far as those old stoves went they are pretty good ones but they are not secondary combustion stoves at all.


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## Grisu (Aug 18, 2015)

"Upgrading" to 15 cords a winter.


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## begreen (Aug 18, 2015)

Ashful said:


> I don't know, but if you buy a modern Blaze King, you could call it the "all night, next day, and following all nighter."  Burn times under 30-40 hours are no longer a point worth mentioning.


Sure they are. The majority of stoves on the market are not catalytic. For someone not wanting a cat stove the non-cat burn times are quite relevant. My guess is that with the large space being heated you will see that you will not be getting 30-40hr burn times once you start your first winter with the BKs.


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## JA600L (Aug 18, 2015)

bholler said:


> Yeah nothing special about them really he is full of it.  As far as those old stoves went they are pretty good ones but they are not secondary combustion stoves at all.



But it recirculates the gases 3 times!


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## Ashful (Aug 18, 2015)

begreen said:


> Sure they are. The majority of stoves on the market are not catalytic. For someone not wanting a cat stove the non-cat burn times are quite relevant. My guess is that with the large space being heated you will see that you will not be getting 30-40hr burn times once you start your first winter with the BKs.


True.  I was typing on a phone, so not as verbose as I should have been.  Point was that the marketing behind the "all nighter" stove falls short of impressing, based on today's burn time standards.

I will be getting 12 hour burns out of one of my BK's, and 24 hour burns out of the other, as dictated by my work and family schedule.  The only variable is how much oil I'll be burning to offset the heat they give at those burn rates.  For me, the primary attraction to BK is the ability to set it to run at those two very different burn rates with the turn of a knob.


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## mwhitnee (Aug 18, 2015)

claydogg84 said:


> View attachment 160497
> 
> I've got a Vermont Castings Defiant you can buy, but you've got to come pick it up in Dutchess County, NY. $350, PM me for details and pictures.



I was going to mention this stove if the op really felt like they needed what they were asking.


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## maple1 (Aug 19, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> Can I still find the stove called the allnighter?


 
Is the wood stove the only source of heat you have?

Do you have duct work? Or rads? Or anything else?


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## ruffrider (Aug 19, 2015)

Sole source of heat.  I have baseboard for emergencies.


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## claydogg84 (Aug 19, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> Sole source of heat.  I have baseboard for emergencies.



Look on Craigslist for a Vermont Castings Defiant. They are solid pre-EPA stoves that take a 24" log and put out a ton of heat. I was heating my 2,000 sq ft raised ranch and getting solid overnight burns (8 hours) with no problem.


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## maple1 (Aug 20, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> Sole source of heat.  I have baseboard for emergencies.


 
Electric baseboard?


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## mzadrick (Aug 20, 2015)

Ruffrider, I have a all nighter mid moe for sale if your interested. Fits 24" logs. Located in Bristol, CT outside of Hartford. Don't know if that's too far away for you. Asking $550. Thanks


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## ruffrider (Aug 22, 2015)

http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=956

What about this one?????


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## ruffrider (Aug 22, 2015)

Or......


http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=171&product_id=963


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## ruffrider (Aug 22, 2015)

http://www.usstove.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=171&product_id=962

Any thoughts????


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## bholler (Aug 22, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> Any thoughts????


My experince with ussc has not been very good.  I have found most of their stuff is poor design and construction.  If you are going for a cheap stove go with the englander 30nc.  It is a much better stove.   And dont you already have one of those crappy ashly circulators that you are looking to replace?


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## ruffrider (Aug 22, 2015)

Yes I do.  I don't know much about new stoves.  Just my h1 heritage hearth stone.  Lol.  This ec 95 is junk you are right.  Thanks for straighting me out.  My local hd has the nc 30 englander.  Saw it.


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## bholler (Aug 22, 2015)

ruffrider said:


> My local hd has the nc 30 englander. Saw it.


For the price they are hard to beat.  There are absolutely much better stoves out there but they cost allot more


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## ruffrider (Aug 22, 2015)

Yeah I looked at the osburn.  Can't afford that.


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## Grisu (Aug 22, 2015)

bholler said:


> There are absolutely much better stoves out there



I sense the wrath of Brother Bart coming...


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## BrotherBart (Aug 22, 2015)

Grisu said:


> I sense the wrath of Brother Bart coming...



I don't care if anybody ever buys another one. Got mine and keeping warm now for coming up on ten years. Three years ago I made the offer of a hundred bucks for anybody showing me a thread where I recommended that anybody buy one. No takers yet. Though if they search real hard the next week I did just to see if anybody found it.


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## Ashful (Aug 22, 2015)

Lots of happy NC-30 users here, including one of our moderators.  You don't hear many complaints about Englander.

US Stove... a whole nuther story.


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## quotejso (Aug 22, 2015)

The 30 is nice just hope you have the ash scooping touch.


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## bholler (Aug 22, 2015)

Grisu said:


> I sense the wrath of Brother Bart coming...


I am also pretty sure bart would agree that there are better stoves out there but the 30 is possibly the best value stove around.


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## quotejso (Aug 22, 2015)

The 30 is more efficient and puts out more heat then many stoves twice the price


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## Grisu (Aug 22, 2015)

bholler said:


> I am also pretty sure bart would agree that there are better stoves out there but the 30 is possibly the best value stove around.



"Better" I can see but "much better"? Given the tested emissions the 30NC burns pretty clean and also seems to be built to last (see BB's stove). Not sure if you find a secondary burn stove that is really more than maybe "slightly better", especially when upgrading from a smokedragon. I guess a BK stove will be "better" but even those don't offer huge efficiency gains anymore compared with a 30NC. 


BrotherBart said:


> I don't care if anybody ever buys another one. Got mine and keeping warm now for coming up on ten years. Three years ago I made the offer of a hundred bucks for anybody showing me a thread where I recommended that anybody buy one. No takers yet. Though if they search real hard the next week I did just to see if anybody found it.



Did not think you would recommend it but you did object to the assumption the 30NC is an inferior stove just because it is cheap.


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## bholler (Aug 22, 2015)

Grisu said:


> "Better" I can see but "much better"? Given the tested emissions the 30NC burns pretty clean and also seems to be built to last (see BB's stove). Not sure if you find a secondary burn stove that is really more than maybe "slightly better", especially when upgrading from a smokedragon. I guess a BK stove will be "better" but even those don't offer huge efficiency gains anymore compared with a 30NC.


Well yeah they are good for the money but i am sorry there are many stoves out there that are better.  Do you not agree?  It is not all about emissions there are allot of things that go into making a great stove stove.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 22, 2015)

S'plain what makes one stove better than another one Ben?

Inquiring minds want to know.


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## Grisu (Aug 22, 2015)

bholler said:


> Well yeah they are good for the money but i am sorry there are many stoves out there that are better. Do you not agree? It is not all about emissions there are allot of things that go into making a great stove stove.



Not sure if I would call other stoves "better". Better for me would be features like higher efficiency, durability, ease-of-use etc. And in those areas I don't think the 30NC is really worse than other stoves. Now, if you would have said it is not the prettiest stove out there I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But I also never argue about tastes if someone sees that point different.


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## bholler (Aug 22, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> S'plain what makes one stove better than another one Ben?


Ease of operation, durability, heat output, ease of service, efficiency,  aesthetics, value  And many others.  Allot of it comes down to personal preference as well.  I am by no means bashing the 30 it is a good stove and like i said very possibly the best value out there.  I really don't see why we are arguing about this.  I am done with it i gave my opinion take it or leave it


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## BrotherBart (Aug 22, 2015)

Left.


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## Ashful (Aug 23, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> S'plain what makes one stove better than another one Ben?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.


Not looking like a black washing machine.  [emoji12]

Example:  the BK Ashford is better than the Princess.


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## begreen (Aug 23, 2015)

Better is somewhat subjective but in this case there are differences. The 30NC is a great value and a proven good heater. There are notable quality differences here though, starting with the baffle. The latch mechanism on the BK stoves is notably nice too. And it has added features like the long burn and even temperature output via thermostatic regulation. This gives the BK a more appliance like burn.


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## quotejso (Aug 23, 2015)

Yea but u could get 3 thirties to one bk and the look is similar the latch is simple yet effective sure theres no cat but it burns wood


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## begreen (Aug 23, 2015)

Value is even more subjective. One could also get 3 30NCs to one PH, but folks still buy them.


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## quotejso (Aug 23, 2015)

begreen said:


> Value is even more subjective. One could also get 3 30NCs to one PH, but folks still buy them.


The ph is soapstone and cast iron it has more value in the materials.


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## bholler (Aug 23, 2015)

quotejso said:


> The ph is soapstone and cast iron it has more value in the materials.


So why do you have a ph and not 3 30s?  Like i have said before the 30 is a great value.  But there are things on it they obviously did to cut cost.  That does not make it a bad stove but there are better ones available.  Now everyone needs to make their decision on whether the other stoves are worth the extra money i cant do that for anyone.


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## quotejso (Aug 23, 2015)

I really like the 30 but shoveling ash is tough especially when its mixed with hot coals. I am getting better but its hard not to make the ash cloud. I hope the ashpan and grate of the ph is all its cracked up to be. The 30 isnt going anywhere unless I get a unforseen bonus


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## Dakotas Dad (Aug 23, 2015)

Getting in late, and after a few punches have been thrown.. but.. I bought our current stove off Craigslist for $1700, one year old and perfect. If you liked your H1.. you will very much like a Mansfield I bet. Use a CL search engine to hit a larger area..


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## Isaac Carlson (Aug 25, 2015)

Elm stoves.....


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## kennyp2339 (Aug 25, 2015)

Nice recommendation for the elm stoves, they are hand made I think Vermont? A little pricey though


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## ruffrider (Aug 31, 2015)

Okay if I run with a 30, do I use single wall black pipe inside the house, or does anybody run double wall black in the house?


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## brenndatomu (Aug 31, 2015)

People go both ways. If you have a short or oversize diameter chimney, especially if it is external to the house, or several 90* bends in the pipe, you will probably want to go double wall. If you have a straight up chimney directly above the stove and most of it is inside the heated building envelope then you can probably go with the single wall, assuming there are no other issues that would keep you from doing so (like clearance to combustibles)


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## Isaac Carlson (Aug 31, 2015)

I prefer single wall because it recovers more heat from the flue temps and puts that heat into the room.  I don't like to have flue temps above 400 degrees.


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## Ashful (Aug 31, 2015)

Isaac Carlson said:


> I prefer single wall because it recovers more heat from the flue temps and puts that heat into the room.  I don't like to have flue temps above 400 degrees.


Might depend on the stove.  BK will tell you their flue temps are so low, you almost need to go double-wall to keep sufficient heat in the flue.


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## begreen (Aug 31, 2015)

Isaac Carlson said:


> I prefer single wall because it recovers more heat from the flue temps and puts that heat into the room.  I don't like to have flue temps above 400 degrees.


Yes, there's a difference in heating with a wood cook stove and a modern EPA non-cat or  cat stove. Regardless of the woodstove, ultimately it depends on the temp near the cap. Installations vary a lot, but the main factor is whether there is an interior or exterior chimney. Exterior chimneys stay cleaner with more heat because the flue gases cool down quicker.


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## ruffrider (Sep 1, 2015)

Mine is an exterior chimney.


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