# Stihl MS290 Hard to pull recoil



## WoodGirl (Dec 30, 2021)

My MS290 had develop a condition where at times it is impossible to pull the recoil; as if the saw is locked up.  This is when I try to pull fast to start the saw; you can pull the recoil slowly through each compression stage.  Taking the plug out the saw pulls normally.  I have been given a couple of scenarios of what can cause this issue; timing off, carb spitting too much fuel in the combustion chamber; also that the ignition module could be acting as a magnetic brake.   I have tried numerous tests, muffler off, carb loosen (to prevent the pumping action), trying to start the saw with the ignition boot off the  plug, etc.  I have not come to any conclusions on the saw.  I pulled the clutch drum off and the springs etc on the clutch were good.  I took the recoil off and it is good.  I have not pulled the flywheel as that is more involved but I can do so if I have a puller that will work.  I have found that if I pull the recoil several times that it will "loosen up" and then I can pull quickly enough to get the saw running.  I got the saw running yesterday and cut some dead dry poplar with the saw.  The saw did seem to want to bog down on me and the chain needed sharpening.

A friend keeps insisting that the saw has too much compression on it.  I dumped all the fuel from the tank, removed the spark plug, pulled the saw several times and let the saw sit with the fuel cap open and the plug out for approximately 24 hours or more to be sure there was no fuel in the tank or in the carb.  I put the plug back in and the saw was still impossible to pull the recoil fast so it could be started.   I pulled the recoil several times slowly and got the saw where I could then pull the recoil normally.  I used a compression tester and did three tests and each time the compression was approximately 165.  My friend said that was too high and that is the problem.  I don't agree because that is the compression when I can start the saw; of course when I can't pull the recoil I can't test the compression.

P.S.  What is the normal range of compression on a MS290?


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## RandyBoBandy (Dec 30, 2021)

Is there no decomp button?


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## salecker (Dec 30, 2021)

Take a close look at your recoil
I had a saw that i used for firewood no issues one year then partway through the next year it became impossibly to start like yours. The recoil wasn't right it would bind enough to cause what you are describing,i replaced it with a different one and all was good. I have a pile of parts saws.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 30, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Is there no decomp button?


Not on the 290 but then it is not that hard to pull when normal.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 30, 2021)

salecker said:


> Take a close look at your recoil
> I had a saw that i used for firewood no issues one year then partway through the next year it became impossibly to start like yours. The recoil wasn't right it would bind enough to cause what you are describing,i replaced it with a different one and all was good. I have a pile of parts saws.


The recoil was replaced with another (Stihl brand) with the easier pull and two pawls over one.  However, I guess it could be the problem.


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## Solarguy3500 (Dec 30, 2021)

If you end up pulling the flywheel, you might not need a puller.

I'm not familiar with Stihls as all I've had are Husqvarnas, but on my 372 XPW, I was able to loosen the nut that holds the flywheel, but don't remove it. Then, take the cover off the other side of the saw, exposing the clutch. With the flywheel hanging upside down, tap the other end of the shaft on the clutch side gently. On my saw, that and gravity made the flywheel pop off easy with just a few taps.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 30, 2021)

I looked at the saw again today.  I managed to get it started and it was running and then died on me; have never had the saw to die on idle before.  I went to restart the saw and was able to pull the recoil out and then acted as if it pulled back on me and smacked hard into my hand.  I believe the timing is off on the saw and as I was pulling the spark ignited the fuel and thus the smack back on the recoil.  I will attempt to inspect to see if the flywheel is off; sometimes the keys will not shear but deform enough to cause the timing to move off a bit but allow the saw to run.  I also recall one time when the saw was hard to pull, seeing wisps of smoke from the exhaust.  I will report back on what I find when I get the flywheel off.


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## ericm979 (Dec 30, 2021)

Kickback pulling the handle out of your hand can happen even with the correct ignition timing.  It's from not pulling hard enough.

The extra effort to pull the saw is probably due to carbon build up on the piston crown and combustion chamber. It does not take much to increase the compression.  Normally it's not a problem but if it was already difficult to pull it could be.

Unfortunately the only effective way I know to clean it is to take the cylinder off and gently scrape it off with a tool that won't mar the aluminum.  Some chemicals can help that process.

Stihl oil is known to deposit carbon.  But even the best low ash synthetic oil will deposit some.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 30, 2021)

Some history may be in order.  First of all, I heat only with wood in the winter.  I cut almost all of my wood; I have been given some wood over the last few years that was cut by others but the mass majority of the wood I burn is cut by me.  My primary saw is the MS290; the only other saw I have is a small Echo for limbing.  Therefore, in the last five to six years I have been burning wood, I have started the MS290 many many times as you can imagine.  I know the saw has develop an issue that did not use to be there; at this time I am between it being a timing issue with the spark or the carb putting too much fuel in the chamber causing basically a type of hydraulic lock.  Now, I removed the muffler as I stated and I was able to see the piston and there is no build-up of carbon on the piston.  I could use an inspection camera to see about the top of the combustion chamber but I don't think that is necessary.

I would like an idea of normal compression for the saw.


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## ABMax24 (Dec 31, 2021)

Sounds to me like a bad crank bearing or gas without oil mixed in.

I'd try fresh fuel/oil mix first, then double check the flywheel key and ignition system. After that I'd be pulling the engine apart to have a look.

To me 165psi compression doesn't sound abnormal. Even if it was too high of compression it would make the saw harder to pull, but not impossible to pull.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I'd try fresh fuel/oil mix first,


Yes, yesterday I mixed up fresh fuel being careful to get it at 50:1 using a measuring device in ounces.  While the saw was a bit temperamental on being able to pull the recoil, it did start and I did cut some wood.  Today was harder but I got the saw to start but it died in idle.  Restarting it smacked my hand so hard that I just stopped until I can pull the flywheel.  I know the saw well and know this is not normal with the saw since I have started it hundreds of times.

On the bearings; wouldn't I notice bad bearings with the saw running?


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## ABMax24 (Dec 31, 2021)

WoodGirl said:


> Yes, yesterday I mixed up fresh fuel being careful to get it at 50:1 using a measuring device in ounces.  While the saw was a bit temperamental on being able to pull the recoil, it did start and I did cut some wood.  Today was harder but I got the saw to start but it died in idle.  Restarting it smacked my hand so hard that I just stopped until I can pull the flywheel.  I know the saw well and know this is not normal with the saw since I have started it hundreds of times.
> 
> On the bearings; wouldn't I notice bad bearings with the saw running?



Yes and no. Depends on which bearing and how bad. You generally won't hear it if that's what you mean. Pull the spark plug and the recoil and slowly rotate the engine by hand it should turn freely and easily, if it becomes stiff at certain points it could be a bearing, in that case likely on one end or the other of the connecting rod.

What makes me think its a bearing is the way it dies at idle, something could be adding extra friction that can't be overcome by the low power output of the engine at idle.

I would check your flywheel first, the symptoms do also fit an ignition issue, particularly the way it kicks back. After that is ruled out I would look into the engine. I've also worked around small engines enough and don't think too much of pulling it apart it the name of diagnostics. Others haven't, so may wish to pursue other diagnostic tests first.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

I took the nut off the flywheel; haven't pulled the flywheel.  It appears that the key is made into the flywheel; is this true?  The photo does show a small gap on one side; would this be enough to throw the timing off to the point it would be hard to pull at times and would kick back on me?


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## ABMax24 (Dec 31, 2021)

Yes, on your saw the key is cast into the flywheel.

That little gap isn't your issue unfortunately. It might shift timing a degree or two, not near enough to cause your issues.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

If it isn't timing then that goes back to the carb  puking too much fluid into the chamber resulting in increased compression, or something internal to the saw.


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## ABMax24 (Dec 31, 2021)

I have a hard time believing it's the carb, if it was dumping that much fuel you'd see it coming out the exhaust, it would likely foul the spark plugs as well so it wouldn't fire.

Does the clutch bearing spin freely?


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## ABMax24 (Dec 31, 2021)

Is there any aluminum melted to the spark plug?


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## ericm979 (Dec 31, 2021)

That looks normal.  It's a cast piece.

Make sure to torque the nut to the spec in the shop manual.  The taper is what holds the rotor in place on the shaft. The key is just to locate it. The nut needs to be tight enough to wedge the rotor onto the taper sufficiently hard.  Otherwise it will spin and rip the key off.

It does not take much thickness of carbon to raise the compression significantly.  Unless the piston crown is showing bare aluminum it's hard to judge the thickness of the carbon visually.


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## ericm979 (Dec 31, 2021)

WoodGirl said:


> If it isn't timing then that goes back to the carb  puking too much fluid into the chamber resulting in increased compression, or something internal to the saw.



Guys will talk about "hydro locking" but it is super rare in practice , especially in two strokes.  And usually caused by riding your motorcycle into a stream that is too deep. If you can pull the engine over it's not hydro locked.

If you don't believe me remove the spark plug, turn the engine upside down and pull the the cord.  If there is fluid in the crankcase it will come out the plug hole.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I have a hard time believing it's the carb, if it was dumping that much fuel you'd see it coming out the exhaust, it would likely foul the spark plugs as well so it wouldn't fire.
> 
> Does the clutch bearing spin freely?


Yes,  Also, with the plug out, I can freely spin the flywheel by hand.  I looked at the piston and bore when I had the muffler off and they look good.  I couldn't feel any rough bearings when turning by hand.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Is there any aluminum melted to the spark plug?


No, the plug looks OK.  I cleaned it the other day.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

ericm979 said:


> It does not take much thickness of carbon to raise the compression significantly.  Unless the piston crown is showing bare aluminum it's hard to judge the thickness of the carbon visually.


But this isn't *ALL THE TIME*.  If it was due to carbon build up then it would be high compression *ALL* the time. I had the saw started yesterday and it died on me (which is usually doesn't do) and when I went to start it again, it almost broke my hand. The saw dying could have been due to the carb adjustment; I was told the saw was idling too low. Although I used the saw two days ago and it never died on me the whole time.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

ericm979 said:


> Make sure to torque the nut to the spec in the shop manual.  The taper is what holds the rotor in place on the shaft. The key is just to locate it. The nut needs to be tight enough to wedge the rotor onto the taper sufficiently hard.  Otherwise it will spin and rip the key off.


Are these the correct torque for the 290?
Torque Specs
kpm Nm
Nut M8x1 Flywheel/crankshaft 2.8 28.0


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## ABMax24 (Dec 31, 2021)

WoodGirl said:


> Yes,  Also, with the plug out, I can freely spin the flywheel by hand.  I looked at the piston and bore when I had the muffler off and they look good.  I couldn't feel any rough bearings when turning by hand.



Okay.

Have you checked the ignition coil to flywheel gap? Too much or too little gap can affect ignition timing and cause issues like yours.

Problem is I'm having a hard time finding the spec. 0.008" to 0.012" seems to be in the ballpark though.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

salecker said:


> Take a close look at your recoil
> I had a saw that i used for firewood no issues one year then partway through the next year it became impossibly to start like yours. The recoil wasn't right it would bind enough to cause what you are describing,i replaced it with a different one and all was good. I have a pile of parts saws.


I had a tech to look at the saw when it first started acting up.  It would only do it at odd times.  I shipped the saw to him.  He couldn't get it to repeat the issue when he had it but he put another recoil on it; a used recoil but he replaced the rope and put in new pawls.  It seemed to solve the problem but then it started returning; infrequently at first but now almost a daily issue.  I phoned the local Stihl dealer and they wanted $100 for a recoil.  That is too much to spend to play a guessing game.  I might get one of the cheap China knockoffs and try it.  At this point maybe it is the recoil jamming; if the recoil stops moving as I am pulling up, the reaction force would be just as if the recoil handle smacked down into my hand.


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## WoodGirl (Dec 31, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Okay.
> 
> Have you checked the ignition coil to flywheel gap? Too much or too little gap can affect ignition timing and cause issues like yours.
> 
> Problem is I'm having a hard time finding the spec. 0.008" to 0.012" seems to be in the ballpark though.


I found a service manual for the saw. 
Air gap between ignition module and fanwheel: 0.15 – 0.3 mm
I need to get a new set of feeler gauges but will do so and make sure it is correct.


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## salecker (Jan 1, 2022)

There is a small chance that it could be the coil
I would look the recoil over to make sure it is all correct.
If it has the wrong size rope on it,the rope can bind on itself as it jambs in the pulley from being to small


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## WoodGirl (Jan 2, 2022)

I checked the ignition module gap; it was 0.25 mm.  I checked the plug gap and checked the spark.  It was orangish in colour; was wondering if a weak spark might cause this issue.  With the plug out, I put the switch on choke and pulled the recoil rapidly multiple times.  I didn't see any fuel running out when I titled the saw up.  Yes, it would have been flooded but not hydro-locked.

I think salecker is probably correct about the recoil locking up on pull even though the recoil looks fine and pulls fine; under a load the spool might be cocking sideways and causing the issue.  When I got the saw back from NY with the different recoil it worked great; however, it got worst with time.  I don't use the saw on a daily basis.  Back in October of 2021 I used the saw for several days and started it multiple times cutting some big oak.  Never had an issue.  The saw sat for a few months and now it seems that it is acting up on almost every time I go to start the saw.


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## Isaac Carlson (Jan 3, 2022)

I am going to ask what your background is and how much saw experience you have.  Some people just don't have what it takes to start a mid sized chainsaw.  A friend of mine has trouble starting his 390 and I need to get him set up with a smaller saw because he describes it a lot like you do.  'Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it just won't go".  I can start the saw fine every time, but I also know how to start a big saw, so it's easy for me.

First off, how old are you?  The friend I mention is going on 70.  He is pretty fit, but his age is starting to show.  Some days he just doesn't have it at all in the strength dept.,  other days he will outwork me, often lifting 100+ lb chunks.

Does the chain spin at idle?
Can you spin the chain easily by hand?
Do you atart it with the chain brake on or off?
What style of starting do you use?
Does the ripe retract smoothly and evenly every time, even when it is hard to start?
What is your oil mix ratio?  50:1?  If so, what brand oil and how are you measuring?
How much rope can you pull out of the recoil and what diameter is it?


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## WoodGirl (Jan 3, 2022)

*I am going to ask what your background is and how much saw experience you have.
*
I have been using this saw for about five to six years. I have started this saw more times than I can count. The saw was a gift; not sure how many hours is on the saw. Wood is my main heat source; haven't used any other heat since installing the wood stove. I do most of my own cutting. Back in October I used the saw several days; cutting up an oak that was over 20 inches in diameter at the base. I started the saw many times; often I will turn the saw off if it is going to be idling while I do something not cutting. The saw starts easily when I can pull the recoil so I don't worry about restarting the saw.

*Does the chain spin at idle?*

No, the chain doesn't spin at idle.  Of course if I am going to carry the saw while it is running, I put the brake on.  However, when I start the saw and take the brake off, the chain doesn't move until I hit the throttle.

*Can you spin the chain easily by hand?*

Yes, I always check the chain tension when I start to cut and adjust it; not loose but not so tight that I can't spin the chain by hand.  I do the pull test to see how much slack is in the chain and the spin test to make sure the chain can move by hand.

*Do you atart it with the chain brake on or off?*

I start it with the chain brake on.  However, I think the issue is there even with the chain brake off; I could test this.

*What style of starting do you use?*

I always start the saw on the ground.  I engage the brake.  I put the choke on full.  I put my foot on the handle, my left hand on the top handle.  I pull the rope until I feel the recoil pawls engage the flywheel, I then pull rapidly on the recoil.  I repeat pulling until the saw does the "burp."  I then move the choke level to the next level and repeat above until it starts.

*Does the ripe retract smoothly and evenly every time, even when it is hard to start?*

Yes.

*What is your oil mix ratio? 50:1? If so, what brand oil and how are you measuring?*

I am currently using the Walmart Tech brand 2-cyble oil; the same oil I have been using awhile now since I got a gallon.  When I first got the saw I used those little pre-measured bottles but they are more expensive.  I have a glass measuring cup that is graduated in ounces so I can do a precise metering of the oil.  I mix to 50:1 or slightly more oil at times but never less and never over oil to the point it causes issues; maybe just a tad more (someone said that adding just a tad more oil to the mix can improve the life of the saw.)  Just to be sure, I always check the ratio chart when mixing fuel again so that I don't mix wrong.

*How much rope can you pull out of the recoil and what diameter is it?*

When it won't pull; and this is like a dead lock-up of the saw, after engaging the pawls in the flywheel It will only pull a short distance; to me it is at the point when the piston goes under compression.  When I can't pull rapidly to start the saw, I can pull slowly on the recoil and it will move the crankshaft.  One time when I couldn't start the saw, I pulled on the recoil several times and it seemed to ease up and I could start the saw and I used it to cut up some tulip poplar.

I actually sent the saw to NY to a mechanic there.  This was a few years ago when the saw first started acting up.  He couldn't get the saw to repeat the issue but installed a different recoil.  When I got the saw back, it appeared to be fine.  I used it and all seemed good but then last year the issue flared up at times and now it seems to be almost all the time.  Oh, he also ported the muffler for me while he had the saw.


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## Isaac Carlson (Jan 3, 2022)

Nice, very clear answers.

Is the saw hot or cold when it acts up?  Is it always one or the other?
Has the saw been sitting a while when it happens? (if it does it only when cold)


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## WoodGirl (Jan 3, 2022)

Isaac Carlson said:


> Nice, very clear answers.
> 
> Is the saw hot or cold when it acts up?  Is it always one or the other?
> Has the saw been sitting a while when it happens? (if it does it only when cold)


I have seen it do it hot or cold.    Lately it is acting up when I go to start it for the first time so yes, lately it is when the saw is cold.


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## Jags (Jan 4, 2022)

This is pretty baffling to say the least.  It almost sounds like a partially seized bearing , but I would not expect one to have the life span/ longevity of what is being explained.
My only other thought is a sticky valve/reed that is causing a compression lock (hence being able to pull the saw over slowly).

I think this may have been touched on earlier and for the sake of clarity...Has the saw EVER been difficult to turn over with the spark plug removed?


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## showrguy (Jan 4, 2022)

Jags said:


> This is pretty baffling to say the least.  It almost sounds like a partially seized bearing , but I would not expect one to have the life span/ longevity of what is being explained.
> My only other thought is a sticky valve/reed that is causing a compression lock (hence being able to pull the saw over slowly).
> 
> I think this may have been touched on earlier and for the sake of clarity...Has the saw EVER been difficult to turn over with the spark plug removed?


There are’nt any valves in that saw..


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## WoodGirl (Jan 4, 2022)

Jags said:


> This is pretty baffling to say the least.  It almost sounds like a partially seized bearing , but I would not expect one to have the life span/ longevity of what is being explained.
> My only other thought is a sticky valve/reed that is causing a compression lock (hence being able to pull the saw over slowly).
> 
> I think this may have been touched on earlier and for the sake of clarity...Has the saw EVER been difficult to turn over with the spark plug removed?


I have taken the spark plug out, and carefully by hand, just using a few fingers, turn the flywheel by hand and I can't feel any indication of possible bad bearings; it rotates smoothly.  When I can, I think I will make a video of starting the saw.  Seeing is easier that trying to explain.  With the plug out, there is no indication of not being able to pull the starter recoil.  It could be carb related; I guess it wouldn't hurt to rebuild the carb.  However, I didn't really see an indication of hydro-lock and I would think hydro-lock would prevent from pulling the rope slowly although I don't know.


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## showrguy (Jan 4, 2022)

WoodGirl said:


> I have taken the spark plug out, and carefully by hand, just using a few fingers, turn the flywheel by hand and I can't feel any indication of possible bad bearings; it rotates smoothly.  When I can, I think I will make a video of starting the saw.  Seeing is easier that trying to explain.  With the plug out, there is no indication of not being able to pull the starter recoil.  It could be carb related; I guess it wouldn't hurt to rebuild the carb.  However, I didn't really see an indication of hydro-lock and I would think hydro-lock would prevent from pulling the rope slowly although I don't know.


Have you checked the muffler screen ??


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## bigealta (Jan 4, 2022)

This is the opposite of your problem, but the lube may help? easy enough to do.


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## WoodGirl (Jan 4, 2022)

showrguy said:


> Have you checked the muffler screen ??


Yes, I have.  When I had the muffler off, I examined the piston and it appeared fine; maybe a scratch or two but no scoring.  I also did not see any carbon build-up on the piston.


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## Isaac Carlson (Jan 4, 2022)

That video is full of bad info.  Wd40 is NOT a lubricant.  It is a water displacement formula.

Recoils that stick need to be taken apart, cleaned, retensioned, oiled with 1-3 drops of real 10 wt oil and put back together.

As far as the OP's saw, it sounds like what I described with my older friend.  That's the only thing I can think of.  The OP never did say how old she is.  That makes this very difficult, even if it sounds silly.  A 290 is a good sized saw for most homeowners and can be difficult to start since there is no compression release, especially when cold.  I can pock up my 390 by the cord and it will hold compression for a long while when cold, and cool/cold weather only amplifies the symptoms.  If I went to start it right now, it would be like pull starting a vw bug.  160 lbs os great compression.  There could be carbon buildup from the cheap oil and adding extra, along with rich tuning.  Most people tune 2 strokes rich.  I tune right on the edge with synthetic oil and carbon is not a problem.  I check my tune every time I use a saw in different weather.  People often comment "what are you doing"  "what's the screwdriver for" or something like that because they don't understand 2 strokes.

My guess is the saw is fine or maybe has increased compression from carbon.  Those are the 2 things I come up with.  We have absolutely no idea what kind of shape the op is in, and starting a saw with good compression on the ground without a compression release when you are higher in the age range is no easy task.  I ONLY drop start unless feeling for compression or something else, but not everyone should do that.  My older friend has tried to drop start and only succeeded in gashing his leg with the bar because he did not understand counter rotation.  He is pretty fit compared to most men his age and still has trouble starting the saw some days.  Most days he is fine.  He calls me and says "Ike, my saw won't turn over today, can you take a look and get it going?"  It always starts like normal for me.

The op said she sent it to a guy in new york who looked at it, changed the recoil, and sent it back.  It worked fine for a while and issue returned.  My guess is he tested it and filled the tank with synthetic mix or equivalent and the oil film in the cylinder was not as thick/viscous as it ised to be until it worked through the system.  As the op added fuel and diluted the mix, the symptom returned.

My suggestion is to use synthetic oil in pre-measured containers, mixing only 1 gallon of premium non ethanol gas.
Run the saw on the current tank until empty, then refill with the new mix and run a few tanks and see if the issue returns.

This is my best guess with the information we have been given.


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## WoodGirl (Jan 4, 2022)

bigealta said:


> This is the opposite of your problem, but the lube may help? easy enough to do.


I don't guess it would hurt.  I will try this when I can.


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## WoodGirl (Jan 4, 2022)

Isaac Carlson said:


> The OP never did say how old she is.  That makes this very difficult, even if it sounds silly.


I am not that old; although I am not going to give my age.  I need to make a video.  When this problems happens, I am l literally jerking the saw up off the ground.  Unless I have become a 10 lb weakling in just a few months why did I have no issues starting the saw last October?  No, there is something going on with this saw.  OK, I won't use anything like WD 40 but I will carefully removed the spool and examine the recoil spring.  I also have an inspection camera so I will see about putting together some videos to show the piston.  I will insert the camera through the muffler and through the spark plug hole.  I make a video of me attempting to start the saw when it acts up.  I have a YouTube channel where I can upload the videos as I am guessing I can't do direct video uploads on the forum.  It may be a few days before I can get the videos done.

I want to say that I am very grateful for all the help everyone is giving me.


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## coaly (Jan 4, 2022)

When it does this I would remove spark plug wire. Touch nothing else and pull it over many times to see if it tends to lock up, or if it feels like normal compression every time. By the process of elimination, you take the spark at the wrong time out of the equation. If it pulls over consistently the same, timing or coil. You then know the spark is causing it.

A bad coil can show symptoms in many ways. I had my 2 cylinder Koehler tractor die over the summer. No warning, like it was shut down. Troubleshoot no spark. Checked wiring, looked at diagrams, ate lunch. Went to try things with a test light, started. Got hot, died. Coil time.  After changing it, I noticed I no longer need to prime the fuel in carb after sitting a few days. Thought it was odd that it seemed to always have a dry fuel bowl, chalked it up to no check valve or fuel pump allowing carb to drain back into tank. Started that way for years since I got it. It always cranked a bit when cold starting too. After changing the coil, I started it a month later, and it fired right up. No more prime needed down carb. Starts cold on the fist turn. Coil must have been weak and I was masking the problem forever.


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## Isaac Carlson (Jan 4, 2022)

Good idea, even though early spark tends to mercilessly rip the cord out of one's hand.  I have ended up with very sore fingers a few times when being lazy about pulling, and I have a very good grip.


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## bigealta (Jan 4, 2022)

A very long thread about a Hard to pull ms 250. Sounds like it's a known problem on some ms 250 saws. Go to the last post on page 6 to see how setting up the pull cord may help a little.




__





						Stihl MS250 hard to pull? in Chainsaws
					

First off, this is my first post here, I've been reading here for a bit after inheriting a truck load of old chainsaws from a relative last spring.  I



					forestryforum.com


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## coaly (Jan 4, 2022)

Yeah, I think the process of elimination is needed here.

No one mentioned octane of fuel being used. Not sure if it was mentioned that a different batch of fuel has been tried. When it was sent to NY and came back without the problem, maybe the problem resurfaced when the fuel causing the issue was put in? 
Gas stations can run out of a grade of fuel and can substitute a higher octane that you thought was regular. Regular octane lights and burns easier than higher octane that is more difficult to light, but higher octane burns with a smoother flame propagation when it does.

I know at first the saw was emptied, and dried out, but opening 2 stroke motors you find lots of oil from it condensing like it should, and I’m sure there is some vapors and volatility in the case being brought up to the cylinder top pulling it over.


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## ABMax24 (Jan 4, 2022)

I don't think octane has anything to do with it, if anything higher octane would help the recoil kickback issue.

I have 3 different 2-stroke engines that I burn avgas in, including my saw, which is significantly higher in octane rating than any on road pump fuel. You would never know the difference between them when pulling the starter, once started absolutely you'd know the difference by the smell though.


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## Nate R (Jan 5, 2022)

bigealta said:


> A very long thread about a Hard to pull ms 250. Sounds like it's a known problem on some ms 250 saws. Go to the last post on page 6 to see how setting up the pull cord may help a little.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for that! 

My MS250 is similar, sometimes MUCH harder to pull than others when it hits compression right. 
My wife found this out the hard way, trying to start it while holding it upright instead of on the ground, ended up with a trip to the ER for stitches in her leg. The brand new chain was VERY sharp. 

Point being, I wonder if anything is actually wrong here.... Since it's similar on some MS250s, etc. Ideal? No. But maybe that's just how it is?


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## EbS-P (Jan 5, 2022)

WoodGirl said:


> I had a tech to look at the saw when it first started acting up.  It would only do it at odd times.  I shipped the saw to him.  He couldn't get it to repeat the issue when he had it but he put another recoil on it; a used recoil but he replaced the rope and put in new pawls.  It seemed to solve the problem but then it started returning; infrequently at first but now almost a daily issue.  I phoned the local Stihl dealer and they wanted $100 for a recoil.  That is too much to spend to play a guessing game.  I might get one of the cheap China knockoffs and try it.  At this point maybe it is the recoil jamming; if the recoil stops moving as I am pulling up, the reaction force would be just as if the recoil handle smacked down into my hand.


So a different recoil made a difference for a while then the problem returned slowly.  This is important.  I don’t think it’s  gas or oil or how strong you are or age.  I’m guessing it’s something on the recoil side of the saw.  It’s almost like the recoil is binding when torqued. Something may be worn causing it to miss align?   

Is there any play once the recoil is installed?


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## Sean McGillicuddy (Jan 5, 2022)

Maybe the recoil rope is swelling/binding.. Replace the string maybe?


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## salecker (Jan 5, 2022)

Do you know anyone with the same saw or one in the same family 029,039ect?
If so see if you can borrow it and when yours is hard to pull over try the recoil from a saw that isn't acting up.


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## bigealta (Jan 5, 2022)

Here is a short about dirty pull start and sticking piston rings.


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## WoodGirl (Jan 5, 2022)

Hello, I have been a bit under the weather lately.  I returned to the saw this evening.  I took the recoil off and I am able to turn the flywheel by hand, with the spark plug installed without any real difficulty.  Therefore, I don't think it is a compression issue and that I am just too weak to pull the recoil.  While I had the recoil off, I spray some lubricant in the areas that I thought would help.  I put the recoil on and I could pull it several times normally.  I then attempted to start the saw and it did the difficult pull thing; I couldn't start the saw.  I took the plug out and it was wet but not overtly wet.  I don't think the saw is hydro-locking at all.  The more I played with the saw the more it felt like the recoil was kicking back on me.  I took the recoil back off and decided to set the coil gap on the minimal setting of 0.15 mm.  I tried it again and while it seemed different I couldn't start the saw.  At that point I stopped as I wasn't feeling well and did not want to over exert myself.  I could start throwing parts at it; a chinesium recoil is cheap.


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## bigealta (Jan 5, 2022)

I know the drop start is not usually recommended as it is dangerous for sure, but that's how i've always started my 029 super and every other saw. Brake is Off too.  Truth be told this is how most people start their saws. It's just much easier.


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## bigealta (Jan 5, 2022)

How many pulls did it used to take you to start the saw before you had this problem? The sthil's have a specific start procedure.


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## WoodGirl (Jan 5, 2022)

bigealta said:


> I know the drop start is not usually recommended as it is dangerous for sure, but that's how i've always started my 029 super and every other saw. Brake is Off too.  Truth be told this is how most people start their saws. It's just much easier.


I always start the saw on the ground as it is safer and it is not that I can't pull and start the saw.  If I was to attempt to drop start it, it would do the same and I would probably end up getting hurt.


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## WoodGirl (Jan 5, 2022)

bigealta said:


> How many pulls did it used to take you to start the saw before you had this problem? The sthil's have a specific start procedure.


This saw has always started great, both cold or hot.  Normally I put it on full choke, pull a few times and it burps, then on the second position of the choke, pull a few times and the saw is running, take the brake off and apply throttle.  It has always been a good saw; it gets a bit heavy on me after a few hours of work.  I wouldn't want a heavier saw.  I know the photo of the flywheel with the nut off doesn't show it has shifted but I am wondering if it could have and it just doesn't look as if it has.  I don't have a flywheel puller for this application.  This is one of those things where you really need to be pulling the rope.  I need to make that video of me starting the saw.


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## bigealta (Jan 5, 2022)

WoodGirl said:


> This saw has always started great, both cold or hot.  Normally I put it on full choke, pull a few times and it burps, then on the second position of the choke, pull a few times and the saw is running, take the brake off and apply throttle.  It has always been a good saw; it gets a bit heavy on me after a few hours of work.  I wouldn't want a heavier saw.  I know the photo of the flywheel with the nut off doesn't show it has shifted but I am wondering if it could have and it just doesn't look as if it has.  I don't have a flywheel puller for this application.  This is one of those things where you really need to be pulling the rope.  I need to make that video of me starting the saw.


Clearly you know how to start the saw, that's Bang On as they say. Hopefully a starting video will show something to help figure out what's happening.


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## bigealta (Jan 10, 2022)

Any progress with starting the ms 290?


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## WoodGirl (Jan 11, 2022)

bigealta said:


> Any progress with starting the ms 290?


I haven't returned to the saw but hope to soon.  I have been sick with a cold but I am on the mend.


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## bigealta (Jan 11, 2022)

Feel better,


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## rwhite (Jan 11, 2022)

Based on everything stated I am leaning towards a compression issue. I realize that is a really broad term so if it were mine here is what I would do: 
1: pull plug and try it. You have done this and it turned over easy. Though not definite it is not likely bearings. 
2. Clean the muffler and the exhaust port.  Can't remember if you had done this. Can you easily blow through the muffler? 
3. Check for proper spark. Part of the increase in compression can be due to it not firing at the right time and pushing the piston back down. I think you set the timing but check the ignition module as well.
4. Does starting with brake on or off make a difference? 
5. Lastly I get a new jug and piston set. High compression can put stress on piston rods and other bearings. It can even cause piston rock at the top of the stroke which can cause rings to dig in. Might not be the answer but by the time I got to #5 I'm out of ideas. 

You could try to put some carb cleaner in the cylinder and stroke it to the top. Put the plug in, turn it upside down and let it sit over night. Dump the cleaner and put a bit of oil in the cylinder and slowly turn it over to lube everything back up. Then try again.


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## salecker (Jan 12, 2022)

rwhite said:


> Based on everything stated I am leaning towards a compression issue. I realize that is a really broad term so if it were mine here is what I would do:
> 1: pull plug and try it. You have done this and it turned over easy. Though not definite it is not likely bearings.
> 2. Clean the muffler and the exhaust port.  Can't remember if you had done this. Can you easily blow through the muffler?
> 3. Check for proper spark. Part of the increase in compression can be due to it not firing at the right time and pushing the piston back down. I think you set the timing but check the ignition module as well.
> ...


You missed the recoil...
#5 is pretty extreem for diagnosing a hard starting issue


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## rwhite (Jan 12, 2022)

salecker said:


> You missed the recoil...
> #5 is pretty extreem for diagnosing a hard starting issue


It is. Just trying to make a point that if I was that far in and it still wasn't right, I'd start tearing in deep. IIRC, an entire rebuild kit is around $100. Just to satisfy my curiosity as to why it is, I'd spend the money and time to do it. I still think there is something leading to the compression being to high.


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## salecker (Jan 12, 2022)

rwhite said:


> It is. Just trying to make a point that if I was that far in and it still wasn't right, I'd start tearing in deep. IIRC, an entire rebuild kit is around $100. Just to satisfy my curiosity as to why it is, I'd spend the money and time to do it. I still think there is something leading to the compression being to high.


That is a chineese rebuild kit,not OEM parts
It's a crap shoot as to what you get and how it will run.
This saw is a great running saw,in great shape from what the OP has put in the thread.
My money is on the recoil,as i have had a similar experience with a husky.
I assumed the squish was to tight and pulled it apart to add a gasket.The saw acted exactly the same after.Changed the recoil from another saw and it was fine.
I cut 8 cords of wood with it the previous year with no issues starting till i went to use it again.I had done a gasket delete without actually checking the squish,so i thought that was the issue.


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## Sean McGillicuddy (Jan 13, 2022)

It might be what type of rope being used in the recoil ...


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## salecker (Jan 13, 2022)

Sean McGillicuddy said:


> It might be what type of rope being used in the recoil ...


Yup, i never tried changing the rope in mine had another complete recoil to try.


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## rwhite (Jan 13, 2022)

Sean McGillicuddy said:


> It might be what type of rope being used in the recoil ...


I would think an issue with the recoil or rope would be present regardless of whether the plug was in or out. Then again I am awaiting the resolution. Internet troubleshooting can be tough.


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## salecker (Jan 14, 2022)

rwhite said:


> I would think an issue with the recoil or rope would be present regardless of whether the plug was in or out. Then again I am awaiting the resolution. Internet troubleshooting can be tough.


Some recoil issues will be there all the time
But in this case when the plug is in and you require to pull through the compression, whatever is the issue is compounded with the compression.
So say if to small of rope is used,when there is no resistance it pulls easy, when you put a load on it the small rope gets pulled down in the pulley because it is to small and jambs between the rope on the pulley and the pulley causing major resistance.
Or if by chance the replacemnt recoil wasn't exactly the same and center is off a bit or the bearing surface of the pulley has some major issues and binds when pressure is put on it


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## Sean McGillicuddy (Jan 14, 2022)

Or the replacement cord swells causing binding ...


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## wahoowad (Jan 16, 2022)

@WoodGirl - My MS251 is doing the exact same thing you describe. I understand completely what you mean when it is hard to pull at times and other times only takes normal effort to pull. It is very clear there are two different kinds of effort - normal effort which is what is used when it will start and that jerky, mechanical, hard way like something is bound up. For me the hard to pull times feels the whole engine has bound up an I'm manually turning it over in some unnatural mechanical way. 

Today it did again after having sat for most of the year. I pulled the spark plug since it felt like it was compression locked, plug was dry so it hadn't flooded from my starting attempts, replaced the plug and then it spun with normal starting effort. Started up after a few pulls and ran fine. 

I have had it 7 years and don't use it much, maybe bucking up a couple trees max a year, so can't imagine I have any worn out parts.


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## WoodGirl (Feb 1, 2022)

My apologies for not updating.  With my sickness; that that was almost two weeks for full recovery, to winter storms during this period to other delays, I haven't gotten back to the saw until today.  The point where I last stopped was decreasing the flywheel coil gap to the lower value.  Then with storms etc, I didn't have the chance to follow up.  Today I started the saw and it would pull normal and then maybe one where you couldn't pull to then back normal.  I got the saw started and it smoked and then cleared up;  so probably oil left over after the fuel evaporated  from trying to start before today.  I let the saw run a minute and then cut it off.  I got my PPE out and then started the saw again; again it would pull normal but for one or two pulls where it felt locked or kicking back.  I started the saw and bucked some large dead poplar rounds until I let the chain hit the dirt.  I stopped the saw and did some chain sharpening by hand.  I then started the saw again where again it would pull normal then maybe once or twice the lockup or kickback (I am not really sure how to describe it).  I finished bucking up the poplar logs and then stop the saw to do some splitting.  I was able to start the saw three times within a few hours and the lockup kickback issue only occurred a few times.

Reducing the coil gap seems to have improve the saw starting but not eliminated it.  Could this be a coil issue that the coil is not firing properly when it should?  If so, are the aftermarket coils on fleabay any good?


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## WoodGirl (Feb 1, 2022)

salecker said:


> Some recoil issues will be there all the time
> But in this case when the plug is in and you require to pull through the compression, whatever is the issue is compounded with the compression.
> So say if to small of rope is used,when there is no resistance it pulls easy, when you put a load on it the small rope gets pulled down in the pulley because it is to small and jambs between the rope on the pulley and the pulley causing major resistance.
> Or if by chance the replacemnt recoil wasn't exactly the same and center is off a bit or the bearing surface of the pulley has some major issues and binds when pressure is put on it


I don't think it is a compression thing because it is comes and goes.  Since this saw does not have reed valves, outside of carb puking too much fuel, what would cause the compression to go high and then back normal?  When I had the recoil off, I could turn the flywheel through the compression without any real difficulty.


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## gzecc (Feb 1, 2022)

WoodGirl said:


> My apologies for not updating.  With my sickness; that that was almost two weeks for full recovery, to winter storms during this period to other delays, I haven't gotten back to the saw until today.  The point where I last stopped was decreasing the flywheel coil gap to the lower value.  Then with storms etc, I didn't have the chance to follow up.  Today I started the saw and it would pull normal and then maybe one where you couldn't pull to then back normal.  I got the saw started and it smoked and then cleared up;  so probably oil left over after the fuel evaporated  from trying to start before today.  I let the saw run a minute and then cut it off.  I got my PPE out and then started the saw again; again it would pull normal but for one or two pulls where it felt locked or kicking back.  I started the saw and bucked some large dead poplar rounds until I let the chain hit the dirt.  I stopped the saw and did some chain sharpening by hand.  I then started the saw again where again it would pull normal then maybe once or twice the lockup or kickback (I am not really sure how to describe it).  I finished bucking up the poplar logs and then stop the saw to do some splitting.  I was able to start the saw three times within a few hours and the lockup kickback issue only occurred a few times.
> 
> Reducing the coil gap seems to have improve the saw starting but not eliminated it.  Could this be a coil issue that the coil is not firing properly when it should?  If so, are the aftermarket coils on fleabay any good?


The Chinese parts are hit or miss.   Very cheap, sometimes worthless.


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## rwhite (Feb 2, 2022)

WoodGirl said:


> I don't think it is a compression thing because it is comes and goes.  Since this saw does not have reed valves, outside of carb puking too much fuel, what would cause the compression to go high and then back normal?  When I had the recoil off, I could turn the flywheel through the compression without any real difficulty.


Wait, I thought you had the plug out when you were turning it over with the recoil off? What causeS compression buildup (if that is the issue) is when you load the cylinder up with air and fuel and it doesn't fire.


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## WoodGirl (Feb 2, 2022)

rwhite said:


> Wait, I thought you had the plug out when you were turning it over with the recoil off? What causeS compression buildup (if that is the issue) is when you load the cylinder up with air and fuel and it doesn't fire.


So that goes back to the carb being the issue; excess fuel.  I pull and have normal compression and then with the excessive fuel and air mixture, I get the "Issue" then when I pull again and it is normal pull that is because it exhausted the excess fuel and then it starts and runs OK.  I have thought about getting a carb kit and clean and rebuild the carb with a new diaphram.  Maybe it is "throwing parts at it" time to see if anything helps.


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## WoodGirl (Feb 2, 2022)

rwhite said:


> Wait, I thought you had the plug out when you were turning it over with the recoil off?


I had the plug in but of course I wasn't turning it fast enough for the carb pump to be working so I wasn't really putting the fuel in the cylinder.  Maybe a rebuild of the carb is in order.  The saw was gifted to me and I have no idea about previous service.  I have had the saw about six years.  It could be that at times; but not every time, that too much fuel does enter the cylinder.


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## bigealta (Feb 2, 2022)

You could pull the plug when it locks up and see what's going on in the cylinder. Plug wet?, or not. Then Pull over with plug out. Then put plug back in and see if it pulls over easily for a few pulls. If then the cycle repeats (easy pull, easy pull hard pull), and is repeatable, you can narrow down the issue.


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## duramaxman05 (Feb 2, 2022)

I have been following your post. I have been working on an 026 red lever non pro saw with the same problem. I rebuilt the carb and checked over it. Compression is 155psi. I took the recoil cover off and blew everything off with air. I pulled the recoil and it pulled smooth but something didn't seem quite right. I took the recoil apart and cleaned it. I sprayed some good penetrating oil on it when i I put it together. It pulls so much easier now.


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## WoodGirl (Feb 3, 2022)

Since I decreased the flywheel to coil gap; the saw seems to be starting better with limited issues; not completely gone.  I started the saw a few times today and finished bucking up the poplar logs.  As you may know, magnetic flux decreases with distance.  I don't have a way to test the magnet on the flywheel but it appeared to be fairly strong.  I think the coil may be producing a weak spark that was causing the issue.  I will be replacing the coil and the spark plug.  I will also reexamine the recoil.  I will report back to see if throwing parts at it works or not.


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## WoodGirl (Feb 3, 2022)

duramaxman05 said:


> I have been following your post. I have been working on an 026 red lever non pro saw with the same problem. I rebuilt the carb and checked over it. Compression is 155psi. I took the recoil cover off and blew everything off with air. I pulled the recoil and it pulled smooth but something didn't seem quite right. I took the recoil apart and cleaned it. I sprayed some good penetrating oil on it when i I put it together. It pulls so much easier now.


I will look at the recoil again.  Plan now is to replace the coil and spark plug so I will be taking the recoil off.


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## Sean McGillicuddy (Feb 3, 2022)




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## salecker (Feb 3, 2022)

When you have the recoil off...
Pull the rope out to the end and look at the groove the rope lives in,see if you can see any cracks in it.
Cracks will allow the pulley to expand allowing the rope to wedge in the pulley next to it's self as apposed to winding up on top of it's self,to small of rope will do the same


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## yooperdave (Feb 3, 2022)

For as many years as this saw has been plaguing you, why haven't you taken it to a Stihl dealer?


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## salecker (Feb 4, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> For as many years as this saw has been plaguing you, why haven't you taken it to a Stihl dealer?


Probably because they will just try and sell her a new saw.
Here the advertised rate at the Stihl dealer is $125.00 an hour


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## yooperdave (Feb 4, 2022)

salecker said:


> Probably because they will just try and sell her a new saw.
> Here the advertised rate at the Stihl dealer is $125.00 an hour



You walk through the door of the dealer with the saw.  Tell them whats going on with it.  Ask them how much to fix it.  Easy-peasey!  Don't know until you try, right?  🙂

Dealers in this area are reputable.   👍

Are the stihl dealers bad by you?


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## salecker (Feb 5, 2022)

yooperdave said:


> You walk through the door of the dealer with the saw.  Tell them whats going on with it.  Ask them how much to fix it.  Easy-peasey!  Don't know until you try, right?  🙂
> 
> Dealers in this area are reputable.   👍
> 
> Are the stihl dealers bad by you?


Only one in the territory at $125.00 +an hour and their reluctance to source parts for old saws, i would say that very few saws get repaired there that are old or cheap.
You can buy a new 170 in the fall for a little over an hours shop time.
Lots of stories of "i took it to the dealer and was told it wasn't worth fixing"
I used to have an add to buy saws on kijiji up here and picked up quite a few that required nothing other than a service,turned away at the dealer because of the rates


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## duramaxman05 (Feb 5, 2022)

salecker said:


> Only one in the territory at $125.00 +an hour and their reluctance to source parts for old saws, i would say that very few saws get repaired there that are old or cheap.
> You can buy a new 170 in the fall for a little over an hours shop time.
> Lots of stories of "i took it to the dealer and was told it wasn't worth fixing"
> I used to have an add to buy saws on kijiji up here and picked up quite a few that required nothing other than a service,turned away at the dealer because of the rates


Same here in Missouri. Not knocking the local stihl dealer by any means, but they do the same thing. Don't know what the hourly rate is but I know that is done there also. They have a business to run so I understand. They have to to charge a minimum fee to make it profitable. So when they have to charge to loom at something, it don't take long to have as much in it as a new one. I guess that's why I stay so busy doing work on the side


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## wiredneck1 (Feb 12, 2022)

I had what sounds like the same issue with a husky 266xp. I put a different recoil rope on it and that seems to have fixed it. The old rope pulled fine slow but when trying to start the saw must’ve been binding up on itself.


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