# Finnish Fireplace



## Simonkenton (Dec 6, 2014)

Has anybody ever had a Finnish Fireplace? This is the best wood stove in the world. It is a massive masonry wood stove, invented in Finland following WW2.
The Finns did a great deal of research at their Technical Institute and learned that the hottest wood fire is gained from a high firebox, I don't recall the exact specs but the firebox in the Finnish Fireplace is about 4 feet high. A firebox this high generates the hottest heat.

With a 5 to 7 ton fireplace, set entirely within the house, like a cast iron wood stove would be, the massive amount of masonry absorbs the heat of the fire, and then radiates out the heat all day.
Even on a cold day, say a low of about 10 degrees, the Finnish Fireplace is burned only for about a half an hour in the morning, and then again for a half hour at night.
On a really cold night in Finland, the Finnish Fireplace is burned 3 times a day. The 1700 degree fire turns an armload of firewood into a small amount of ash.

I am in the North Carolina Mountains and I wanted to install a Tulikivi Finnish Fireplace in my log cabin. Alas, I learned that it is not cold enough here to efficiently use a Finnish Fireplace.

Here is a pic of a Tulikivi Finnish Fireplace:


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## BrotherBart (Dec 6, 2014)

Lots of discussions every year about masonry heaters, it ain't just a Fin thing. Used to be two members with those monsters with their housed built around them. There are also online forums devoted to them.


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## begreen (Dec 6, 2014)

I like Tulikivis. They work fine in our climate as do Russian fireplaces.


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## Grisu (Dec 6, 2014)

Love them. If I will ever build my own home, it will be highly insulated with a masonry heater inside. Now I just need to win the lottery...


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## DougA (Dec 6, 2014)

Yup, I was convinced that's what I saw going to buy ... until I found out they start at $30K.  I was then going to make it myself until I found out that if it's not made by an expert, there's no chance of it passing inspection here in Ont.. Euchred.


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## Simonkenton (Dec 6, 2014)

To be honest, you could, marginally, use a Finnish Fireplace here in the NC mountains. I love them because they are so efficient.
But, the fiancee hates them! She says they look like an oven from Auschwitz. Women, go figure.
Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

I had a Tulikivi all picked out for our new house, but no go. Had to settle for a fireplace and a Waterford cast iron wood stove.


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## begreen (Dec 7, 2014)

DougA said:


> Yup, I was convinced that's what I saw going to buy ... until I found out they start at $30K.  I was then going to make it myself until I found out that if it's not made by an expert, there's no chance of it passing inspection here in Ont.. Euchred.


Take a look at Temp-Cast kits for masonry stove building.


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## Simonkenton (Dec 7, 2014)

The Tulikivi I was looking at 15 years ago cost $8K. Have they quadrupled in price? That is hard to believe, they are made of high temp fire brick and rocks or soapstone.


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## DougA (Dec 7, 2014)

I did talk to them already.  I can't recall exactly but I think they were just short of $10K for a smallish inner unit.  When I spoke to them, there were no examples I could go to see and I got the impression what they were doing is simply buying refractory bricks, adding their plans and selling it at a premium. I asked to visit them since they are quite close to me and they 'were in the process of moving' and did not have a 'bricks and mortar' building. Can't recall the exact details but I was not impressed. If you look at their web site, the last testimonial is from someone who bought their unit in 2002.  

Then, you have to cover it with your own exterior stone or brick.  Still, I spoke to many WETT inspectors plus had a long acrimonious conversation with the people at WETT and they would certify it because it has no certification tag on it. The certified mason has to build it, hence the high cost.  There are at least 4 near me and they all are in the price range I quoted. It's a LOT of work.

I also had a long discussion with one of the top builders in N. America and had these concerns:
I wanted it to be built on an outside wall.  This is a huge no-no. It MUST be in the center of the room
The BTU output is not enormous.  It compares with a mid-sized stove.  I need 100K BTU or more.  
Heat output is very slow and over many hours. If you are away for a day, you'll have to use back-up heat for many hours until the unit warms enough to be useful.

I still think the idea is fantastic but just not right for many people.


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## DougA (Dec 7, 2014)

Simonkenton said:


> The Tulikivi I was looking at 15 years ago cost $8K. Have they quadrupled in price? That is hard to believe, they are made of high temp fire brick and rocks or soapstone.



I spoke to one very knowledgeable guy who wanted over $10K just to build the inner shell.  I just re-checked the price of someone nearby and they are quoting $15 to $30K.  You have to remember that many units are quite small. I saw one in Italy that was built to heat a small living room and not the house.  I'm wanting something that is much larger, hence the $30K.

BTW, have you priced soapstone lately?? See the prices for a Hearthstone and that will give you an idea of the cost.


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## branchburner (Dec 7, 2014)

DougA said:


> BTW, have you priced soapstone lately??



No need to use soapstone for a masonry heater.

The way to go, if not a lottery winner (or otherwise wealthy) is to get a mason who builds heaters to build one, of stone or brick (BTW, seems to be LOTS of those guys in Ontario, including the guy linked below). 

Getting it to pass code is another matter.

Rocket mass heater would work for me:
http://www.mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac12g.htm
Built by:
http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/gallery.html


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## Simonkenton (Dec 7, 2014)

Well, looks like things have changed for the worse for Tulikivi in 15 years. Back then, the smallest models were $6K and the expensive ones were $15K. As I recall, they sold you the entire kit, soapstone, refractory brick and all, and you put it together.

My house is 1,200 sq ft and the Tulikivi I had picked out cost $8K.
I don't recall the BTU output, but, 15 years ago 10 percent of the new houses in Finland used Finnish Firplaces exclusively for heat. Of course, at least in Finland, there are many other manufacturers besides Tulikivi.
Good enough for Finland, good enough for me.
 Few people and lots of trees in Finland.. For these masterpieces of engineering, it doesn 't matter if you burn oak or pine, because you are only burning the fire for a half hour or so.


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## DougA (Dec 7, 2014)

branchburner said:


> Built by:
> http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/gallery.html


Spoke to him for quite awhile too.  I was very impressed with his knowledge.  I'm pretty sure he's in the $30K+ range for the size I wanted.  Also have to remember that for an artisan like that, you are paying for 2 masons their travel, accommodations, food, etc for a week to 10 days.  It all adds up.



Simonkenton said:


> My house is 1,200 sq ft


That's the real issue.  Homes in Europoe are vastly different than the giant mansions here in N. America. In my county, the minimum size allowed was 2K sq ft when I built in 1983.  I spend many hours researching all the Russian, Finnish and other variations.  There are designs now that seem to surpass the Tulikivi.  

Bottom line is still this, if I can't get it certified, I can't get house insurance. Without house insurance, I can't get a mortgage.  That was the end of the searching. I was very disappointed and frustrated that it ended that way.  I'm sure there are some areas that are not as strict as Ont.


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## Simonkenton (Dec 7, 2014)

Yes, y'all up north, and in Canada, have much more strict wood stove regs than what we have here down South.
I had a house down in Georgia, had a mortgage on it, and had a VC wood stove. The stove was never inspected, the insurance company knew I had a stove, nobody ever said anything to me about it.
I now have a home here in North Carolina, do not have a mortgage but Prudential has never said a word to me about my wood stove, and it has not been inspected.


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## weatherguy (Dec 7, 2014)

There are a couple of masons near me that build masonary heaters, one guy has some smaller ones pre built. I met someone that bought one but it ended up being way to small for his 2000 sf house, he still has it but burns a pellet stove. I've been appraising houses for 25 years and have seen 1 Tulikivi in all that time. It was in a 1600 sf newer home and was just beautiful.


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## 7acres (Dec 7, 2014)

Simonkenton said:


> Yes, y'all up north, and in Canada, have much more strict wood stove regs than what we have here down South.
> I had a house down in Georgia, had a mortgage on it, and had a VC wood stove. The stove was never inspected, the insurance company knew I had a stove, nobody ever said anything to me about it.
> I now have a home here in North Carolina, do not have a mortgage but Prudential has never said a word to me about my wood stove, and it has not been inspected.



Same here in SC. Called the local building inspector to inquire if I could install it myself (I'm not a pro installer) and if it had to be inspected after installation. He said I can install it and no inspection is needed. Same with insurance company. The wood stove proposition would have been a couple grand more expensive if our state had onerous regulations. So I'm happy I live in SC.


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## begreen (Dec 7, 2014)

I would think that many insurance companies would view this as a fireplace. Usually if it is installed by a licensed and bonded mason and inspected that is sufficient. But not all insurance companies are alike. Some still go by pre-EPA stove requirements which is nuts.


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## firefighterjake (Dec 7, 2014)

I know a guy who has one here in Maine . . . loves it . . . bought the "guts" and installed it . . . then did the exterior stone work himself. He loads it up twice a day and as mentioned loves it . . . said the only drawback is early and late in the season.


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## spirilis (Dec 7, 2014)

I read a neat book on the history of these and of mankind's use of fire in general.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1890132098/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
"The Book of Masonry Stoves:  Rediscovering an Old Way of Warming"
I think it was written in 1984.  Anyway a lot of European development into masonry heaters occurred at a fast pace between the late-1500's and 1800's during what is often coined the "Little Ice Age".  Obviously they existed well before then especially in places like Russia, but one common theme I noticed is those older designs weren't necessarily "efficient" combusters per se.  E.g. underfloor heating in China, Korea et al. tended to use smoky fires.

Another common name is "Tile stove", the closest thing they had to prefab or cookie-cutter masonry heaters back then.  Even still a skilled mason in the trade would be the one to construct it.


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## spirilis (Dec 7, 2014)

Also mentioned in that book is the practice of Coppicing and Pollarding, something that fell out of favor in the 20th century but has attracted much attention among permies and greenies I guess.

As Europe became more densely populated with more folks moving into the cities, firewood and lumber supply became a huge issue since it was everyone's primary fuel (a London glassmaker could use up to 70 cords a month, IIRC).  So trees would be thinned outside the city, and folks would have to source wood further and further out at greater cost, and lumber would be imported from far away.

So the practice of coppicing trees by chopping them down to the stump and letting them resprout would inevitably allow substantially higher productivity out of their trees, and allow them to cultivate ideal poles for lumber.  Furthermore, the fast & hot burning nature of a masonry heater enables and frankly requires they use smaller splits or sticks- so having a tree go nuts with sprouts would allow abundant harvest of such smaller fuel.  Better not to have to split any of your firewood when you need so much of it and you don't have petrol power to help you.

Pollarding is just coppicing at several feet high, to prevent livestock from grazing on the sprouts.


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## Simonkenton (Dec 8, 2014)

At any rate, since the fiancee gave the thumbs down on the Finnish Fireplace, I built a regular American-style fireplace for my house, pictured at left. But, I applied the principles of the Finnish Fireplace. This fireplace is entirely within the house, so that, the back wall of the fireplace is the inside wall of the bathroom.
Upstairs, the stone walls of the chimney are entirely within the bedroom. It looks good!

Also, I built an exterior air intake. A fireplace will suck an enormous amount of heat up the stack if you don't have an exterior air intake.
This is 18 tons of masonry enclosed within the house. If I burn the fireplace for 5 hours, the back wall of the fireplace gets up to about 105. As soon as the coals have gone out, I close the damper, and the heat stored in the massive masonry stack will slowly release, and will heat the entire house on a 32 degree night. In that situation, I will have about 68 degrees in the living room the next day, and in the bedroom upstairs it will be about 64 degrees.
Burn the fireplace 5 hours the next night, and off you go.
Not nearly as efficient as a Finnish Fireplace, but pretty good.  It is also not nearly as efficient as my little Waterford wood stove.


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## DougA (Dec 8, 2014)

Most of the masonry heaters now have sealed glass doors so the efficiency is much improved.  One of the members here ByQ was going to build one but I have not seen him post for quite some time.


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## webby3650 (Dec 8, 2014)

Simonkenton said:


> At any rate, since the fiancee gave the thumbs down on the Finnish Fireplace, I built a regular American-style fireplace for my house, pictured at left. But, I applied the principles of the Finnish Fireplace. This fireplace is entirely within the house, so that, the back wall of the fireplace is the inside wall of the bathroom.
> Upstairs, the stone walls of the chimney are entirely within the bedroom. It looks good!
> 
> Also, I built an exterior air intake. A fireplace will suck an enormous amount of heat up the stack if you don't have an exterior air intake.
> ...


I had the same idea. I burn it hot and then Shut the damper as soon as I can. I lined my entire firebox with 2 1/2" thick soapstone slabs. About 600 pounds of it!


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## NoGasBill.com (Mar 4, 2015)

Hi Simon, yes I have been working with these heaters for the past 25 years. They work great in most settings as a bonus you can cook in them too. Living ''off grid" with masonry heaters is easy and quite rewarding.


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## DougA (Mar 4, 2015)

I had a quick look at your site.  Looks nice. The question I didn't see answered was the one I got stuck on a year ago when I contacted other 'kit' suppliers in Ontario. If I buy a kit and install it myself, how do I get it WETT certified?  The inspectors I spoke with (many) were unanimous that if it did not have a ULC tag on it they would not pass it.  There is no ULC tag - so.... ?


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## Simonkenton (Mar 4, 2015)

nogasbill, huh? I like that name. So you are living off the grid. I have spent quite a bit of time in Canada. Whereabouts do you live?
So you build these heaters? Man that roasted turkey looks great. Or, maybe it is a giant Canada goose.
I saw them cooking bread in the Tulikivi but never saw someone cook a turkey. That is really cool.

How do you get water to your house? Do you have solar power?


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## Oldman47 (Mar 5, 2015)

Water could be as simple as at my cousin's house. He has a spring uphill from the house and built a small dam to hold a steady pool height. From there it is a simple pipe below the frost line to the house. No pumps and no power needed.


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## Bobbin (Mar 5, 2015)

We have good friends "down east" and they have a masonry heater in their home.  It was constructed by a local mason trained in building them.  You _don't _have to buy an official Tulikivi to enjoy the benefits.  They burn 4-5 cord/yr. and they fire the stove in mid-October and keep it burning through early April.  I can't say for certain but I _think _it takes about 2 wks. for the mass the heat enough to begin radiating enough heat to keep their home comfortably warm.  I found their home a bit on the chilly side when "hanging around", frankly (65-67F).  But I'm used to 62-64F as a base temperature for daily activity and a fire in the Woodstock to "cozy things up" when we're lounging. 

It's a wonderful concept; and one that delivers a pretty clean burn, too.  But it's not something that will deliver "on demand"/instant heat, as I understand it.


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## Simonkenton (Mar 5, 2015)

Takes 2 weeks for the masonry stove to deliver full heat to the house? Good God, that must be a 44 ton stove.
In a Tulikivi, it takes just a few hours for the stove to deliver heat. You light the Tulikivi once in the morning, for about a 30 minute burn, and once again in the evening for a similar burn and you are warm.

For a comparison, my fireplace pictured at left, is completely inside the house. This an American fireplace and not a Finnish fireplace.
If you burn a good fire in it, it takes five hours for heat to begin to radiate out of the back wall. Once the fire goes out, heat will continue to radiate out for about 30 hours.
Which means, if you burn a 5 hour fire every night, you get a continuous heat from the back wall of about 104 degrees.


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## begreen (Mar 5, 2015)

Only problem is that as the fire it cooling down, it is sucking conditioned room air up the chimney. The Tulikivi is a sealed burner with outside combustion air and does not do this.


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## bholler (Mar 5, 2015)

begreen said:


> New
> Only problem is that as the fire it cooling down, it is sucking conditioned room air up the chimney. The Tulikivi is a sealed burner with outside combustion air and does not do this.


I am sure it also uses allot more heat to get that fireplace up to temp than it does to heat up a tulikivi


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## Simonkenton (Mar 5, 2015)

Yes! The Tulikivi is much more efficient than my American fireplace. I wanted to build a Tulikivi, and I had the model all picked out. However, the fiancee hated the Tulikivi, she said it looked like an oven from Auschwitz.
Women, go figure.
So, I built my American fireplace instead.
I would imagine you get twice the heat, with half the wood, from a Tulikivi.

Nevertheless, my fireplace is a good heater. I incorporated the principles of a Finnish Fireplace, in that, my fireplace is entirely within the house. This lets me get heat from the back side of the fireplace, and the sides of it, into the house.
I do have an outside air intake for my fireplace. If you do not have an outside air intake you are utterly screwed while the thing is burning, as a fireplace sucks enormous amounts of air.

What I do is, about an hour before I want the fire out, I burn pine, which burns hot and quick and has minimal coals. I want that fire to go out.
As soon as the fire is completely out, I close the damper. Then, I have it made, I have 105 degree heat from the back side, and much more than that from the fire box, and no room air sucked into the chimney.


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## TreePapa (Mar 6, 2015)

webby3650 said:


> I had the same idea. I burn it hot and then Shut the damper as soon as I can. I lined my entire firebox with 2 1/2" thick soapstone slabs. About 600 pounds of it!



I like the idea of lining the firebox w/ soapstone. The wife vetoed the idea of a stove / insert when when had the chimney rebuilt after the chim. fire, but adding the soapstone could be a good way to retain a little more of the heat that otherwise goes up the chimney. And it would cover the deteriorating firebricks. Win-win.

Shutting the damper when the coals go out is a bit more problematic. We're usually asleep by then.


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## begreen (Mar 6, 2015)

webby3650 relined his fireplace with soapstone but says he hasn't noted a heating difference after doing this. An open fireplace is a very inefficient heater. Closing down the damper too early could be risky if the coals are not 100% done burning and CO accumulates.


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## NoGasBill.com (Mar 6, 2015)

Hi Doug
I have come across the same issue from time to time. The best strategy to use, which has worked for everyone of my customers, is when applying for your building permit to apply for a " _Site Built Masonry Fireplace". _If I do not warn my customers in advance, then they apply for a "_Factory Built_ or _wood stove_ " product on the building permit. Installation of "_Site Built" _products fall under a different set of codes vs a _"Factory Built". 
_You are not breaking any laws if you put in a Masonry Heater, where they allow the traditional site built fireplaces of decades gone by, these codes are still in place. I know that if I went to most building inspectors and asked them straight up if they would allow this type of wood burning product, I know I would get the same answers as you have been getting. 
 I was looking for the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC), to find support for the above recommendation when applying for a building permit. I will continue to look for that, but I came across this on the Canadian government website ... "

*Current Building Codes.* _
 A few masonry heater models are ULC listed and are thus 
installed in accordance with the terms of their listing. Most masonry heaters however, 
even factory kits, are typically site-assembled and are usually accepted under the 
masonry fireplace and chimney provisions of the applicable building code. The National 
Building Code of Canada has for several years had a requirement for a  100 mm outside 
air duct vented directly into the firebox of masonry fireplaces._

_Copy and paste the link below for the CMHC's " A Guide To Residential Wood Heating "_

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...h1bdsAtUKNrachqVg&sig2=z1_50QRZ6SbpMvRZdhuP7Q


 Also I have attached a document from our website. The document is from the "Canadian Masonry Research Institute" or _CMRI_. The _CMRI_ makes the recommendations for the "_National Building Codes_" or _NBC_. If purchasing the product directly from us, then you can use this document. Sorry that this document does not cover any other manufacturers or suppliers product.

I do not know how many building inspectors you have in town/city or what percentage of them you have talked too? So hopefully the advice below will be of help to you.

Note: ULC testing is costly IMO, These costs are passed on to the consumer and greatly add to the purchase price of a Masonry Heater kit/installation. We have bypassed this additional cost to keep our heater kits at the lower end price point.

In closing I would like to say that building inspectors can get their "backs up" just like anybody else, especially when you show them something they may not understand or know about. Just keep it simple and tell them you are building a "site built masonry fireplace", period. Do not get to elaborate in the description, keep it simple through the whole process. I would file for your permit and apply as I have suggested. I have over 500 heaters applied for and installed, I only had a problem with 1 inspector who made us have a building engineer sign off on the installation, which cost us $300 in the early 2000's.

 Good Luck Doug !


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## DougA (Mar 6, 2015)

Thanks for the explanation. The problem is not with the building inspector, it's with the insurance company.  I did spend some time talking to the local building inspector and I understand that I can get approval for most wood burners that are not ULC approved, if I follow increased set backs. After I gave up on a masonry heater, I decided to get a Woodstock stove.  Woodstock does not have ULC certification on their stoves (due to the high cost), yet they sell a fair number to Canadians. In fact, the WETT inspector walked up to my stove and said, "I can tell you right now that this will fail"  He had inspected a similar stove that was a Woodstock and it did not have the ULC tag.

The problem in both cases is that if your insurance company finds out you have a wood burning appliance or fireplace, they insist on a WETT inspection. No certificate, no insurance. No insurance, no mortgage. No mortgage, no house.

I pressed the head office of WETT as far as I could on allowing a masonry heater but to be honest, I didn't press the insurance company on it.  In Canada if you talk to the company about doing something they might not like, you will often get an increase in your rates, even if you do nothing. All companies in Canada have the same or similar policies. You don't bug them unless you are really desperate. Most agents have no idea other than the standard BS.  If a certified mason who is WETT certified installs the masonry heater, then everything is great. The problem now is that the cost of a masonry heater has gone way over the budget most normal folk can accept.

My guess is that if someone were to install a masonry heater and didn't say anything, the insurance would not care until there was a fire. Now, we've got a problem and you may or may not be covered. I could not take that risk, so I bought a soapstone ULC wood stove instead.  Sad but bureaucratic BS seems to win most times.


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## NoGasBill.com (Mar 12, 2015)

Hi Doug, thank you for explaining in detail your situation. It really does come down to a human reaction. A customer once told me his discussion with his insurance company, after their new house was completed, with one of our heaters. Here is his words to me, from his insurance company ...

_Insurance company:_ "We can not give you insurance, because we do not insure homes with _wood stoves_ anymore".

_Customer:_ " We do not have a wood stove installed in our home, we have a masonry fireplace a _masonry heater_ "

_Insurance company: _Oh OK, here is your insurance policy then & have a nice day".

I totally know where you are coming from & it is sad to hear that these situations are not always as simple as they should be ?? Back in the late 80's the government built the most energy efficient home ever to be built (at that time anyways).
Hi Doug, thank you for explaining in detail your situation. It really does come down to a human reaction. A customer once told me his discussion with his insurance company, after their new house was completed, with one of our heaters. Here is his words to me, from his insurance company ...



_Insurance company:_ "We can not give you insurance, because we do not insure homes with _wood stoves_ anymore".



_Customer:_ " We do not have a wood stove installed in our home, we have a masonry fireplace a _masonry heater_ "



_Insurance company: _Oh OK, here is your insurance policy then & have a nice day".



 I totally know where you are coming from & it is sad to hear that these situations are not always as simple as they should be ?? Back in the late 80's the government built the most energy efficient home ever to be built (at that time anyways).

 The house was designed and built  on the R2000 program and was a feature story in _Popular Mechanics Yearly Magazine Issue "Best Of What's New" Dec. 1990. _(I will post the rest of the pages in next post_, maxed out here).

_The Federal government went on to build 1 of these "_Advanced Houses_"  in every province, with Ontario being the first to build one of these homes. So 25 years later, with no documented case in North America, has a house ever started on fire or even a chimney fire because of a masonry heater ?? & an insurance company won't insure them, what a shame huh !

While I was looking for this Popular Science issue, I came across a headline that said_ "Space heaters cause approximately 20,000 home fires and 400 deaths in the U.S. every year, often because of the scorching devices' unfortunate tendency to set flammable objects within a three-foot radius ablaze." Hmmm ... enough said. 

Thank you for your input Doug, you got me fired up !!
_


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## NoGasBill.com (Mar 12, 2015)

OK I believe I have uploaded all pages


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## 3650 (Mar 12, 2015)

So basically its just a horrendously expensive rocket stove.


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## bholler (Mar 12, 2015)

3650 said:


> So basically its just a horrendously expensive rocket stove.


No not exactly there is allot more to it than that.  The basic firebox is similar in concept to a rocket stove but the rest of it is not


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## DougA (Mar 12, 2015)

Yup, I built one of the first R2000 homes in Ontario but I did not take advantage of the grants available. Too much gov't BS needed and they insisted on things that I thought were stupid - & I was proven correct many years later.  Since we're on the subject, here's my take on design elements worthwhile and not:

NOT worth the effort:
Super air tight.  Within a few years, either you or the mice will have enough holes to make it 'holy'.  Air tight is good, super air tight is not.  Super air tight also requires an air exchanger. Although we originally designed one in the plans, we did not install it as it was not needed. We did a pressure test and it passed but it would not pass now.
High mass.  We have more mass in the house than anyone I know and it's not worth the effort or the $$. 

Things that are worth the effort:
More insulation than anyone thinks is worthwhile. The R2000 standards are now 'normal' and upgraded homes have significantly more.
Site planning. Lots of windows facing south, very few facing north or west (prevailing winds). Berms or tree lines on the north and west sides to provide a buffer for cold winds.
Lots of south facing glass to take full advantage of solar heat in the winter.  Most of the days in the past 2 weeks we have had the stove off and the sun provides our heat. Was almost 80 in here yesterday until we opened the windows.
Proper overhangs so that solar heat does not affect the house int he summer.

I wish you had posted the info 8 months ago and I might have gone ahead with the masonry heater. Too late now and we are thrilled with the performance of the soapstone stove. The risk of not being insurable made the difference in the final decision.


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## DougA (Mar 12, 2015)

3650 said:


> So basically its just a horrendously expensive rocket stove.


Sorta like comparing a Lada and a Lamborghini - yes, they are both cars with 4 wheels.


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## NoGasBill.com (Mar 13, 2015)

Hi everyone, thank you for your response and time. I have never posted on a forum before, everything I do is face to face at our trade shows. We have attended over 80 shows here in Alberta Canada in the last 20 years, spreading the word. We approach these trade/home/log home shows with a different approach. We use our outdoor booth to hold a non-stop workshop to educate the attendees. We have never collected a check on site in our booth during these shows.  I will post as mush as our time constraints allow to answer any questions or to share information...So I hope you enjoy the reading.

 If you want some interesting reading material, I came across this newer book a few years ago. I started at page 64 since I was explaining the health benefits of heating with a masonry mass and negative ions. I could talk for many hours on end, without repeating myself, on all the benefits of using a masonry heater, from the "green" aspect, to the energy savings, outdoor & indoor air quality to forest management, heating water, cooking & barbequing and using your "heater" as an air conditioner in summer months in some regions. etc... 

Yes I did mention air conditioning. In our low R -value 70's built home here is Edmonton, Alberta where we can have hot days 80F+ and cool nights low 60's. We leave both our fresh air intake damper & the chimney exhaust damper open throughout the night. The cool air travels through the labyrinth of channels inside the heater core for about 12 hours. The core acts like a sponge to accumulate the cold into the surrounding mass. Since cold radiates as does heat, we essentially have a radiating, 2 ton chunk of mass the same as when you walk down into a cool basement to get relief from a very warm upper floor of the home. We call this the "basement effect". 

A finished 2 ton heater can store 500,000 (1/2 million) Btu's in the refractory core and brick or stone facade. In 1 firing of 40 lbs. of wood we can capture over 250,000 Btu's... A 2000 sq. foot home uses between 200,000 to 300,000 Btu's a day to heat. Now minus all the other things that contribute heat to your home on a daily basis ie. lights, dryers, toasters, ranges etc... Your masonry heater will supplement the rest of your heating needs, with no fans, motors or alternate energy source. 
 We can hold 2 firings inside of the masonry heater core and the surrounding facade. This is how we get to 1/2 million Btu's of stored energy. Aside from heating, how you use these Btu's is up to you ie. cooking, heating water, creating steam etc... It's just a big Btu storage battery. We even have a guy here in Alberta who uses a _Tesla_ "steam turbine generator" coupled into his heater core firebox to generate electricity from his wood burning masonry heater.

Copy and past this link below and you'll find a whole book to answer your questions and learn things you wouldn't have imagined otherwise.

link to "Negative ions" section of the book:
*
https://books.google.ca/books?id=46...age&q=masonry heaters & negative ions&f=false*


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## NoGasBill.com (Mar 13, 2015)

Simonkenton said:


> nogasbill, huh? I like that name. So you are living off the grid. I have spent quite a bit of time in Canada. Whereabouts do you live?
> So you build these heaters? Man that roasted turkey looks great. Or, maybe it is a giant Canada goose.
> I saw them cooking bread in the Tulikivi but never saw someone cook a turkey. That is really cool.
> 
> How do you get water to your house? Do you have solar power?




Hi Simon, I just noticed your post I'm new to this.... 

Yes & thank you, _NoGasBill.com_ was a shot at the utility company. 90% of our customers we meet at our trade shows are mostly building "new construction". We tend to sell to those who are building new, because of the structural supports required for a masonry fireplace. When we are at the shows I give a few examples on how to start paying for your heater before they even move into the new home. Examples, So instead of having 2 utilities going to your house, just have 1 utility ie. electricity (no gas line). Here is how you can make room in your budget for your new masonry heater by just making some simple choices. Now do not have a gas line going to your house, minimum $2000-$3000 savings right there or more. Now if you are committing yourself to using you masonry heater on a daily basis, as most people are, you can put in a simple heating system such as an electric baseboard system (baseboards only to be used when you are away for several days at a time) i will guess a savings of $1500 to ? "what ever else you were going to put in" ie ground source heat pump. No ceiling fans with a masonry heater, savings $1200 to $1500. With a masonry heater the floor to ceiling temperature difference is less than 1- 2 degrees F _naturally _through convection. When using fans such as forced air furnaces and ceiling fans, we create a "_wind chill_ " effect in our homes. That is why your feet get cold with a forced air furnace, because the cooler air is traveling along the floor, past your feet to the cold air returns. I use the analogy of a calm sunny spring day with no wind and it is 60 degrees out you are nice and warm, but if a breeze picks up then you have to put on a sweater over that tee shirt. Same thing happens in our homes when using fans. These savings just mentioned pay for 1/2 the costs (minimum) of the finished heater or up to 100% + $ left over if you are swapping out your "ground source heat pump installation". You can have a finished heater with the "_cook oven_" option, chimney & the minimal required brick facade for between $13000 - $15,000
 Your ongoing savings come from not using any electricity for cooking, running fans. Masonry heaters also use 1/4th the wood consumption (use soft wood) as that of a wood stove or outdoor boiler system to heat the same area, No chimney cleaning (ever), these heaters are a "no maintenance" system.  etc... Our customers have guesstimated about a 5 year pay off of a finished heater, as the worst case scenario...

 We live in a suburban 70's home is Edmonton Alberta as I mentioned in the last post. We have all of the typical utilities like our neighbors, except we are hiding a masonry heater in our home. I built our new heater in front of the old fireplace, just salvaging the old chimney behind the masonry heater. Our chimney connection is at the base behind the heater, instead of bringing the chimney off of the side. we have had the heater since about 2001. We use to call in our meter reading for the 20 years before our heater was installed, but "_ATCO Gas_" now reads our meters because they thought we were falsifying our meter readings to them after we installed our heater. They even went as far as to change the old gas meter out with a new gas meter. This scenario has played out many times with 10 or so of my customers, "_ATCO Gas_" just keeps thinking the meters aren't working right !?!. The first thing the gas company does is to check the gas line connection to the gas meter for any teeth marks from a monkey wrench, in case we were stealing gas or by passing the meter ... our masonry heaters are that good !

Yes that is a turkey, never cooked a goose, mine or that of anyone else .... With the bake oven or "_cook-oven option"_ (located on top of the heater kit) we do our lower temperature cooking. This oven is called a "_white oven_" since no flame passes through this section. The "_cook oven_" dome sits on a 3 inch refractory lid that separates anything going on internally within the firebox/internal channels. The heat is from the floor of the _oven_ or lid of the heater, which ever way you want to look at it. This _oven _holds about 150-180 degrees F on 1 firing per 24 hrs. & can get over 200 degrees F on a "double firing" (every 12 hrs). This _oven_ will hold the temperatures for the whole day on 1 firing and will hold these temps 24 hrs. per day with repeated "double firings" through the coldest winter months. We cook the turkey up top, but "brown" the turkey down below in the firebox. Now you actually have 2 ovens, 1 "high temp" oven, just like a traditional food fired oven when using the firebox, and a "low temp" oven when using the upper "cook oven". So anything you would cook in a crock pot you would use the upper oven ie. soups, sauces, roasts etc... The lower oven (firebox) is for pizzas, breads, pre boiling water in a pot for pasta, browning a turkey etc... We cook the turkey up in low temp upper oven, and brown the turkey (for appearance) in lower oven/firebox.
 The biggest meal of the year is typically a turkey dinner. We cook the whole dinner in the fireplace between the 2 "ovens", ie. turkey, stuffing, veggies etc.... Also no basting of the turkey required, always comes out moist and juicy, so we can actually leave for several hours of the day and not worry about anything. We do use the stove for about 10 minutes to make the gravy though, I'll work on that .... 

 A customer once described living with a_ masonry heater "as a whole different lifestyle and a luxury most people can not afford to live without"_. His wife also said "_my house is calm, quiet, no fans or motors running, no dust storms blowing around so I dust much less_, _and I am now able to live my asthma because of the reduced dust, no dry air from furnaces or wood stoves_ and no smoke smell".


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## NoGasBill.com (Mar 13, 2015)

Additional pictures in _reply_ to Simon

The kit I installed in our home was a previously "used kit". I used this kit at one of our trade/log home show exhibits in our outdoor "burn booth". I actually used this kit at a Log Home Show in Abbotsford, British Columbia. I burnt about 1/2 of a cord of gummy, tarry, sappy pine offcuts from a log home building yard. After some laborious work to salvage the modular pieces I ship it back to our house in Edmonton, Alberta after the conclusion of the trade show. I did burn this unit non stop during show hours. I used a calibrated pyrometer with a thermocouple to read the temperatures inside the "smoke throat". The smoke throat is the narrow passage above the firebox which has a _venturi effect_. This is where a lot of the magic happens in a masonry heater. In the _smoke throat_ we would see typical temperatures of 1700-1800 degrees F.  I do not know if it was the conditions at or near sea level with the combination of that creosote filled wood off cuts that I was using, from the log home yard. On the last wood load of the day everything must have been just right because I recorded the highest temperature I have ever seen in a masonry heater when I hit 2300 degrees F. It was a monumental moment. I can hit 2000 degrees easily with spruce 2x4's anytime.  Combustion of creosote happens at temperatures between 1400-1500 degrees F.  Masonry heaters can easily hit temperatures hot enough for proper combustion of creosote. Masonry heaters complete the combustion cycle before the creosote even has a chance to collect on the inside of the chimney walls. Creosote is our friend, there is a lot of energy in wood if you burn it hot enough. So the 2 tricks in heating efficiently with wood is A) lots of oxygen & B) mass to store the energy in. Just the opposite of what we were raised around in North America.
 As you notice my "used kit" is always clean internally for life. This kit looks like it has never been used and looks brand new. 

Picture of:_ Fresh air supply to ash drop under new heater_
Picture of: _Secondary burn chamber of used trade show unit_
Picture of: _Partially bricked heater with cook oven dome installed_, _ready for finishing brick and cook oven door_
Picture of: _Newly finished brick heater with 1st. turkey dinner started in cook oven._



 Here is another link:
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion#Combustion_management*


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## Simonkenton (Mar 14, 2015)

So you live in Alberta?   In all my time in Canada, I was just passing through Alberta. We were hitchiking from way back up in the woods in BC, down to Atlanta Georgia.
Canadians were friendly but not too much traffic in Alberta, we kinda got stuck, so we hopped a freight train in Calgary. No empty box cars, believe it or not, the engineers let us get into the empty 3rd engine, and we rode all the way to Winnipeg.
Here is a pic of me at 70 mph near Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, in August 1973.

Very friendly engineers, they brought us a case of bottled water, and taught us how to evade Canadian railroad police. Automatic 3 days in jail if they catch you.


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## begreen (Mar 14, 2015)

Darn Canadian Hippies!


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## Simonkenton (Mar 14, 2015)

NoGasBill.com said:


> Yes I did mention air conditioning. In our low R -value 70's built home here is Edmonton, Alberta where we can have hot days 80F+ and cool nights low 60's. We leave both our fresh air intake damper & the chimney exhaust damper open throughout the night. The cool air travels through the labyrinth of channels inside the heater core for about 12 hours. The core acts like a sponge to accumulate the cold into the surrounding mass. Since cold radiates as does heat, we essentially have a radiating, 2 ton chunk of mass the same as when you walk down into a cool basement to get relief from a very warm upper floor of the home. We call this the "basement effect".



nogasbill that is fascinating, you leave the air intake and damper open on the cool summer nights, run the cool air through the masonry heater all night, and then the cool temp radiates out into the house all day long.
I do a similar trick with my American fireplace pictured to the left. It would do me no good to leave my damper open all night, because, the chimney is insulated from the rest of the fireplace. Only the firebox is solid.
However, like your heaters, my fireplace is entirely contained within the house, and this is a 2 story house. So, I have about 12 tons of masonry entirely within the house.
On a cool summer night here in the NC mountains, I run some fans in the windows upstairs, blowing out, and open 3 or 4 windows downstairs. I am running 65 degree air throughout the house, and all around, all that masonry all night long.
Next day, shut off the fans, close the windows, not only is the house cooled down to 65 degrees, but that massive stack of masonry is also cooled down. The cool temps slowly radiate into the house all day.

Same thing in the winter, I may run my wood stove for 3 days, low of 30 and high of 50, got the house at 70 degrees. And I got 12 tons of masonry at 70 degrees. That massive stack of masonry has absorbed the heat from the wood stove,  the next day, high of 60 and low of 40, don't even need to light the wood stove as the heat from the masonry slowly radiates back into the house.

I love your stories about living in a house with a big masonry heater. Obviously, it is far superior to a wood stove, and the wood stove is a better heater than my fireplace.
Love the idea of baking in the masonry heater.

Although I did want to install a Tulikivi in my house, rather than the American fireplace, to be honest I am not sure if it is cold enough down here to make a masonry heater feasible. Macht nichts, the fiancee vetoed the masonry heater on aesthetic grounds.   Women, go figure.


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## ToltingColtAcres (Mar 15, 2015)

Simonkenton said:


> Macht nichts, the fiancee vetoed the masonry heater on aesthetic grounds.   Women, go figure.



You always could have returned the fiancee and got the Tulikivi... May have been cheaper in the long run, too


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## Bobbin (Mar 16, 2015)

As I understand the concept of "thermal mass":  you begin heating the mass long _before_ you "need" heat.  You're basically "warming it up", and that makes sense when you're faced with a lot of cement/whatever that's in place to absorb heat and radiate to the living space.  Again, as I understand the basic concept, the key is to maintain an even, comfortable heat in the designated space. 

I think the important thing is to differentiate between "even" and "comfortable".  An "even heat" of 55-60F is leagues away from the comfy 70-72F we may desire in our sitting area.  My downeast friends use their thermal stove to _maintain heat.  _Certainly, they derive a more immediate heat delivery to their sitting area when they stoke the firebox, but for the most part their home is not "roasty-toasty".  It's not what they wanted when the installed their thermal mass stove.  Thermal mass stoves are not "quick delivery" heat systems, Simon..


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## DougA (Mar 16, 2015)

Bobbin said:


> for the most part their home is not "roasty-toasty". It's not what they wanted when the installed their thermal mass stove.


That is a thorny problem and it's all about BTU. When I compared wood stoves, I found it hard to believe all the numbers. Some mfg's are pretty honest, but some quote max BTU that is unattainable unless you babysit the stove and keep it burning to it's max. potential. With masonry heaters, it's a similar story. The wood has a maximum BTU and you are supposed to just multiply by efficiency HOWEVER, it does work in practical terms, just like wood stoves.  Are you building one fire per day? Two? Four?  That's why BTU numbers are difficult to pinpoint.  Add to that, some people are perfectly happy in a home that is 65 but just like you, I am not comfortable in winter until it's mid 70's.

Mere mortals can't afford to invest in a masonry heater and find out it doesn't generate enough heat. As you say, thermal mass means zip if there is not enough heat.  I bought my Equinox and it is supposed to be too big for my needs but we found it to be just perfect, especially this winter.  BTU heat loss calculations are based on norms and are useless when it's way colder than norm for 2 months in a row. When I spoke with one of the top masonry heater builders in North America, he said I should count on roughly 56,000 BTU. I knew that was insufficient and got a wood stove that is over 100K instead.

They are great ideas but the owner must do all the homework before investing and quite honestly, most people will need a heat loss specialist to do that for them.  When I was working on the final designs for my house, the architect hired an engineer to do my numbers and he was dead wrong. So wrong, I refused to pay his bill.  Sounds like I'm an arrogant SOB but after living in the house for 30 yrs, I can say in all honesty, the engineer was still dead wrong and I'm glad I didn't listen.

Moral is - masonry heaters are not something you can swap out if you are wrong. It seems most members here on the forum have owned at least 2 stoves to find what suits them the best.


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## 3650 (Mar 16, 2015)

This guy rebuilds Elm stoves.  He had a masonry heater installed in his home.  If you dig around on his youtube he has a video of it.

http://www.vermontironstove.com/index.html


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