# New EPA regulations?



## elmoleaf (Jan 15, 2013)

My apologies if this has already been discussed:
In a news article online today about research into black soot impact on global warming:

 "The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in mid-December also tightened limits on soot pollution from power plants, diesel engines and burning wood from levels set in 1997."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/black-soot-impact-on-global-warming-worse-than-thought-study-20130116-2cshu.html#ixzz2I5q0OL4h

Also found this:


*"12/17/2012 08:57 AM* 

 

 ShareThis
Under Court Order, EPA Toughens Air Quality Standards for Soot
*SustainableBusiness.com News*
 
The US Environmental Protection Agency has finalized rules that reduce by 20% the maximum amount of soot emitted by factory smokestacks, power plants, diesel trucks, wood-burning stoves and other pollution sources.
...States and counties must comply with the rules by 2020, although they can apply for extensions up to 2025, depending on how hard it might be for certain areas to meet the new standards by that time."

Does this news have any immediate or practical effect on current sale or design of woodstoves? Or will it just further narrow stove choices and localities where you can burn in the future?


----------



## jotulguy (Jan 15, 2013)

It looks like it will effect the hearth industry as well. Its a little early to tell right now but rumor has it the new grams per hour rate is going to be 4.5. Many products already meet this standard. Currently the max is 8.5 grams per hour, except in Washington state.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 15, 2013)

elmoleaf said:


> My apologies if this has already been discussed:
> In a news article online today about research into black soot impact on global warming:
> 
> "The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency in mid-December also tightened limits on soot pollution from power plants, diesel engines and burning wood from levels set in 1997."
> ...


 The fact that wood stoves are mentioned is disturbing to this guy. Other pollution sources may be a twenty year old oil burner, like the one in my cellar?then i've got two older burners in my 12,500 foot shop? oh boy, epa out of control,we're gonna stop agw all by ourselves. simple live in the dark and cold ,make it more expensive for any homeowner, renter,and business.Pity the truckers,there are already places they can't go.


----------



## clemsonfor (Jan 15, 2013)

And then the fact that one 500 acre wildfire which is very small in size will probably put out 1,000,000,000x more soot and smoke that they will save in this new regulation. And how can you control wildfire,...YOU CANT!!


----------



## remkel (Jan 15, 2013)

Eagerly Annihalating Productivity.......if the bureaucrats in Washington would just get off our darn backs we could accomplish great things here! As for my wood stove, any legislator is welcome to reach into THEIR pockets, not the taxpayers purses, to pay my heating bills anytime they like.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 15, 2013)

Waaa waaa waaaa. with attitudes like that society would never have left the stone age.

Stop your crying. The previous set of epa rules never forced anyone with a smoke dragon to shut it down. You just can't buy a new one. And I think we all agree that was real progress.


----------



## fossil (Jan 15, 2013)

More efficient. "They" can come by and take away my wood stove and all my guns at the same time.


----------



## save$ (Jan 15, 2013)

fossil said:


> More efficient. "They" can come by and take away my wood stove and all my guns at the same time.


And any soft drinks over 16 ounces!


----------



## FyreBug (Jan 15, 2013)

Current EPA Standards form emissions are set at 7.6 gr/hr except for Washington State and Oregon where it has been at 4.5 gr/hr for a while. 

EPA and the industry was expecting the next phase to be at 4.5 gr/hr across the board for non-cat and lower for Cat and adding previously 'exempt' categories. Until.... 8 States decided this was not good enough and wanted much lower with 75% HHV efficiency which means no non-cat would meet this as of today, and only some of the cat... and this was only for phase 1! For phase 2 they want 2.5 gr/hr with higher HHV efficiency which no stoves on the market currently meet. Then for phase 3 it would be even worse. In effect relegating wood burning & manufacturing to those who have access to a welding torch and some steel since no manufacturers would spend this amount of energy and resources re-inventing the wheel.

The reason some of these government agency goes after such a small industry and problem is its a 'low hanging fruit'. The industry is small and does not have a lot of resources and political visibility to fight back. Just imagine what would happen if they went after the trucking industry! Highways would be blocked and there would be heck to pay!

Fortunately, it looks like saner minds should prevail after long and tedious debates. It could be years.


----------



## Slow1 (Jan 15, 2013)

A bit of a catch-22 in trying to improve the total amount of emissions from wood stoves in use.  If you want to make a real difference you can't keep exempting existing stove, yet if you try and legislate replacement of all pre-epa (or whatever line you draw) stoves you will alienate a lot of voters not to mention the inherent question of legality.  However, if you want to rely only on new stoves going in and make a difference you have to drop the output far more than is reasonable.  As we all know here the operator has as much to do with these emissions as the stove itself (lumping choice of fuel as part of the operator's responsibility).  Thus how to reduce this side of it?  At least with oil or gas home heating that variable is largely removed with automated systems.

I do wonder what the emissions are from my oil boiler.  It may be higher on a g/hr basis than I think, but overall on a g/day for keeping the same temp in the home I wonder where it would stand... then I wonder what the 'average' is for installations.  I bet it is better than the average for wood appliances in this area, but how am I doing with my stove compared to these numbers?


----------



## FyreBug (Jan 15, 2013)

Dont have the numbers of oil vs wood. I can look into it. But the industry published numbers and analysis on reducing overall emission.

Basically if you go too low, too fast you are actually making the problem worst. The MFG have to spend millions of dollars re-vamping their line. Who pays for this? The consumer. Do you think they will be willing to pay double or triple for a more "efficient" and "less polluting" stove? Less than likely.

So they'll keep their old fire dragons going for as long as possible or will get a neighbour handy with a welding torch to put one together for them. The industry proved by actual numbers that if EPA was truly concerned about emissions the best way to reduce it is to provide a cash for clunker rebate to replace all the worst offenders with cleaner burn technology coupled with an education program to teach people how to burn cleanly.

After all, no matter how clean the stove is... if you dont burn dry wood it will not matter. 

I also attended some government agencies lectures regarding the airshed 'problem' in North America. Impressive statistics in wood burning... especially when you include wild forest fire in the equation! However, taken out of the equation wood burning does affects less than 1% of the airshed (the agency could actually not provide an actual number!).


----------



## remkel (Jan 15, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Waaa waaa waaaa. with attitudes like that society would never have left the stone age.
> 
> Stop your crying. The previous set of epa rules never forced anyone with a smoke dragon to shut it down. You just can't buy a new one. And I think we all agree that was real progress.


Ugh, fire good......


----------



## simple.serf (Jan 15, 2013)

I'd comment, But it's been a rough day with new government regulations...I think I'll sit this one out.


----------



## wkpoor (Jan 15, 2013)

Pretty sure the burn barrel in my back yard pollutes way more than my stove. And the stove has longer burn times
But hey while we are on the topic of things that pollute, what about all these kids running around in diesel trucks with the tuner set on "smoke" cause it looks cool man. I'll wager any day there is more pollution going into the air from that source than wood stove use. So what we going to pick on next? Oh yeh, the chainsaws we use to cut the fuel we haul home in the diesel "coal burner" truck  to burn in our super efficient wood stove.
This is all a load of crap.


----------



## StihlHead (Jan 15, 2013)

FyreBug said:


> Current EPA Standards form emissions are set at 7.6 gr/hr except for Washington State and Oregon where it has been at 4.5 gr/hr for a while.


 
Not quite. That is for Washington State and not Oregon. In WA state, all wood stoves, pellet stoves and inserts must be EPA and WA state approved (EPA does not cut it). Any sales of non-WA approved stoves are not legal, but they sell them on CL up there. In WA, *all* OWBs are banned, period. In most counties in WA state, an OAK is required for all wood burning appliances as well as masonry fireplaces. In WA state the CAT stove limit is 2.5 gr/hr (EPA is 4.1 gr/hr), the non-CAT stove limit is 4.5 gr/hr (EPA is 7.5 gr/hr). In WA state, existing wood stoves are exempt from these certification requirements, so if you have a smoke dragon you can keep using it. However, the use is restricted during a State 1 burn ban when the use of all uncertified stoves is banned (except in homes where that is the only heating device).

Oregon is not the same. In Oregon you can buy any stove or insert that is EPA approved or Oregon state DEQ approved (a list of pre-EPA cleaner burning stoves). New stoves have to only meet EPA requirements here. Basically if you have an old smoke dragon, you can keep using it. In Oregon, if you sell a house with a wood stove or insert in it or in any buildings on the property, they have to be either EPA approved or on the Oregon DEQ list. If the stove is not either of those, it has to be removed by the seller or a contractor and taken to an approved recycle facility and scrapped. The way around that of course is to remove the stove before the house goes on the market. There are no laws preventing that or using an older stove. You cannot "legally" sell any non-EPA/DEQ approved stove or insert in Oregon, new or used, but they come up on CL anyway. Antique stoves built prior to 1940 are grandfathered, and wood stoves designed and used for cooking are exempt.


----------



## jdp1152 (Jan 15, 2013)

jotulguy said:


> It looks like it will effect the hearth industry as well. Its a little early to tell right now but rumor has it the new grams per hour rate is going to be 4.5. Many products already meet this standard. Currently the max is 8.5 grams per hour, except in Washington state.


 
The stove shops I talked to recently were all expecting MA to put in more strict requirements for new purchases...exceeding what  was required at the federal level.  What they know and who they know it from, I can't vouch for, but it wouldn't surprise me (nor disappoint me).  Other than some added cost to the consumer, does anyone think more efficient wood burning devices are a bad thing?  More heat, less smoke is a win win situation.


----------



## StihlHead (Jan 15, 2013)

elmoleaf said:


> Does this news have any immediate or practical effect on current sale or design of woodstoves? Or will it just further narrow stove choices and localities where you can burn in the future?


 
According to the EPA web site, the current standards being considered in 2013 for the new EPA wood stove requirements are reducing the current EPA limits for wood stoves to the current levels of WA state for CAT and non-CAT stoves. That is the only significant impact that will change wood stove designs and sales. Of course, if you live in a state and region that does not require EPA stoves then it does not really affect you. Of course the flip side is in Santa Clara Co. in CA that banned all wood burning appliances and wood fireplaces in all new home construction. Older houses with stoves and fireplaces there are exempt though. My houses in Campbell and Los Gatos both had a useless fireplace in them that smoked up the houses and did nothing to heat them.

Me, I bought a WA state approved stove... to get ahead of the curve here.


----------



## begreen (Jan 15, 2013)

remkel said:


> Eagerly Annihalating Productivity.......if the bureaucrats in Washington would just get off our darn backs we could accomplish great things here! As for my wood stove, any legislator is welcome to reach into THEIR pockets, not the taxpayers purses, to pay my heating bills anytime they like.


 
Before you all go nuts worrying, did any one read the dates on this? It's seven years from now, with a possible 5 year extension. And most of the current stoves in production now meet the standard. Otherwise they could not be sold in WA or OR. (Guess where a lot of your stoves are made.) Relax, the sky is not falling. And our govt. is not the enemy.

Seems like there will be lots of productivity and production in providing solutions to these issues. That = jobs.


----------



## jdp1152 (Jan 15, 2013)

begreen said:


> Before you all go nuts worrying, did any one read the dates on this? It's seven years from now, with a possible 5 year extension. And most of the current stoves in production now meet the standard. Otherwise they could not be sold in WA or OR. (Guess where a lot of your stoves are made.) Relax, the sky is not falling. And our govt. is not the enemy.
> 
> Seems like there will be lots of productivity and production in providing solutions to these issues. That = jobs.


 
well said.


----------



## loadstarken (Jan 16, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> In WA, *all* OWBs are banned, period.


Last year I was doing some reasearch for my father in law because he wanted a OWB and I found him the "Greenwood" boiler which claims that "model XXX is the only wood boiler certified in Washington state.  My question is can they be used in a Stage 2 burn ban?  I sent them an email and received no replies.


----------



## remkel (Jan 16, 2013)

simple.serf said:


> I'd comment, But it's been a rough day with new government regulations...I think I'll sit this one out.



I think this is where my reaction came from. I feel for you folks in NY!


----------



## mudr (Jan 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> Before you all go nuts worrying, did any one read the dates on this? It's seven years from now, with a possible 5 year extension. And most of the current stoves in production now meet the standard. Otherwise they could not be sold in WA or OR. (Guess where a lot of your stoves are made.) Relax, the sky is not falling. And our govt. is not the enemy.
> 
> Seems like there will be lots of productivity and production in providing solutions to these issues. That = jobs.


 
Thank you


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> Before you all go nuts worrying, did any one read the dates on this? It's seven years from now, with a possible 5 year extension. And most of the current stoves in production now meet the standard. Otherwise they could not be sold in WA or OR. (Guess where a lot of your stoves are made.) Relax, the sky is not falling. And our govt. is not the enemy.
> 
> Seems like there will be lots of productivity and production in providing solutions to these issues. That = jobs.


 I can see it now a tremendous  growth in the private sector to build new boilers, engines, and stoves,sure .Growthin jobs at the epa, probably.I'll be honest ,a nobel cause is clean air but at a tremendous cost in the economy.Unilateral adjustments continue to make us more and more  less competitive on the world market. Try slapping tariffs on products made in china or any asian country that doesn't follow these new regs and see what happens. I have no answer here but alone we are using a tsp to lower sea levels.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 16, 2013)

Does this stuff really keep you guys up at night?  really?


There have been emissions controls on automobiles wince the enactment of the first lcean air act.... But i have yet to see an EPA swat team show up at a car show to confiscate 57 Chevy's.

Building codes have required tight insulation ofr years, but no EPA buldozer squad has shown up on my lawn to demolish my house.

I can go on.. but you get the idea.  There are more important things in life to stress about... you'll drive yourself into the nuthouse if you get so worked up and paranoid over ever news headline.


----------



## Swedishchef (Jan 16, 2013)

@ Jharkin. Well said.

And in Canada since we are so few with such a large territory you can just burn smoke dragons, melt the polar ice and drown the polar bears. Too bad our stove companies will comply with EPA specs 

ANdrew


----------



## TradEddie (Jan 16, 2013)

Have you folks seen pictures of Bejing this week? Is that what you'd prefer? That's what absence of air pollution regulations looks like.


> If the bureaucrats in Washington would just get off our darn backs we could accomplish great things here!


Sure, rivers that catch fire were probably great to watch.

Changes like these will have an effect, over time, and make this country an even better place to live. Same with those other proposed regulations that several are alluding to.

TE


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 16, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Does this stuff really keep you guys up at night? really?
> 
> 
> There have been emissions controls on automobiles wince the enactment of the first lcean air act.... But i have yet to see an EPA swat team show up at a car show to confiscate 57 Chevy's.
> ...


 It means more than my '57 chevy,more stuff and regs with my business.Here's an example, OSHA inspection back in the 80's resulted in some $900.00 in fines. Was OSHA correct in finding us noncompliant,yes. here is the rub ,the major fines were for unguarded flywheels. The machines in question are Boston cementers,their flywheels are 1" and 2"and  run with elastic bands, a two day old couldn't hurt themselves..Gov't regs out of control 30 years ago!Whose to say they may not inspect our burrnes and say "no,no too much soot"Don't worry I'll still sleep.


----------



## ddahlgren (Jan 16, 2013)

It would make at lot more sense if they made the spec at grams per 10,000 BTU input rather than a total number.
It is as silly as the EPA rules for cars and trucks using parts per million. You can have an 8 liter SUV putting out the same PPM as a little econo box with a 2 liter at the same PPM as the SUV but the SUV puts out 4 times the smog..


----------



## stoveguy2esw (Jan 16, 2013)

AFAIC repsponsible regulation is an acceptable thing, there's nothing wrong with cleaner emmissions its hard on manufacturers though


----------



## jharkin (Jan 16, 2013)

ddahlgren said:


> It would make at lot more sense if they made the spec at grams per 10,000 BTU input rather than a total number.
> It is as silly as the EPA rules for cars and trucks using parts per million. You can have an 8 liter SUV putting out the same PPM as a little econo box with a 2 liter at the same PPM as the SUV but the SUV puts out 4 times the smog..


 
Your right that SUVs get a big break... For a long time they had their own separate set of standards for both emissions and fuel economy.  But the knee jerk reason of "no regulations ever" is no answer.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 16, 2013)

TradEddie said:


> Have you folks seen pictures of Bejing this week? Is that what you'd prefer? That's what absence of air pollution regulations looks like


 
Ive been to such places in person. Its reallly really really nasty. We need to remember that the world doesn't end at our front yard.....


----------



## clemsonfor (Jan 16, 2013)

Could be like in California in the vallies or whereever where the is the "smoke police" who ride around and if they see smoke coming out of a chimney you get a ticket


----------



## Huntindog1 (Jan 16, 2013)

FyreBug said:


> Just imagine what would happen if they went after the trucking industry! Highways would be blocked and there would be heck to pay!


 
I work for a major Diesel Engine Manufacturer and we constantly are coming up with new designs to meet higher and higher standards. For those of you not familiar with the heavy duty truck engines they now have to have an after treatment system and when you go to fill up with fuel you also need to fill up with liquid urea thats used to clean the after treatment system. So while your driving down the interstate high way your truck could be starting a clean cycle  in your after treatment system injecting urea and cleaning  the system out.

So I dont think the Heavy duty trucking Industry has gotten the easy path either.


----------



## Slow1 (Jan 16, 2013)

clemsonfor said:


> Could be like in California in the vallies or whereever where the is the "smoke police" who ride around and if they see smoke coming out of a chimney you get a ticket


 
Guess one would have to get a BKK and load it up late at night once each 24hrs...  no smoke to be seen when they are driving around as no reloads in daylight?


----------



## Slow1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> For those of you not familiar with the heavy duty truck engines they now have to have an after treatment system and when you go to fill up with fuel you also need to fill up with liquid urea thats used to clean the after treatment system.


 
Um... is that urea what I think it is?


----------



## Huntindog1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Dont forget the Next Generation Wood Stove Design Challenge going on at this time with 35 teams now competing to win 25 grand for the best new wood stove design.

Maybe we will see some new ideas come out of that.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> Um... is that urea what I think it is?


 
Well its a refined product ,clear liquid doesnt have all that much smell. Dont know if its synthetic or natural product.

I am sure its related to the urea fertilizer sold as its just white small pellets.

I can ask and see where it comes from.

Okay they say it does have an ammonia smell.
And it is like the urea fertilizer but liquid.
I was intially wrong it actually is slowly injected into the exhaust path at a slow rate to help the exhaust burn cleaner.
As you can tell this isnt my department.


----------



## clemsonfor (Jan 16, 2013)

Slow1 said:


> Um... is that urea what I think it is?


 HAHA no its DEF or deisel exhaust fluid. I know its "urea" but its not urine.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 16, 2013)

Urea injection is also used in some automobile engine... I think the Mercedes bluetec system was one of the early ones if not the first.  But its not recharged at every fuel fill up... more like once a year or every second oil change...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec


----------



## Foragefarmer (Jan 16, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Urea injection is also used in some automobile engine... I think the Mercedes bluetec system was one of the early ones if not the first. But its not recharged at every fuel fill up... more like once a year or every second oil change...
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec


 
Bluetec is a diesel engine.


----------



## Foragefarmer (Jan 16, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> I work for a major Diesel Engine Manufacturer and we constantly are coming up with new designs to meet higher and higher standards. For those of you not familiar with the heavy duty truck engines they now have to have an after treatment system and when you go to fill up with fuel you also need to fill up with liquid urea thats used to clean the after treatment system. So while your driving down the interstate high way your truck could be starting a clean cycle in your after treatment system injecting urea and cleaning the system out.
> 
> So I dont think the Heavy duty trucking Industry has gotten the easy path either.


 

The problem I have with the new engines is that yes they are "cleaner" but they don't seem to be as fuel efficient as the older engines. 
I read a great article in Progressive Farmer a couple years ago about Tier IV compliant tractors. They said the good news was they were going to be cleaner the so so news they won't be any more fuel efficient or slightly worse than the Tier III tractors. 

I traded a mid size old blue tractor in on a new Tier III tractor. Three more HP than the old one and uses way more fuel than the old one. The same tractor had to be Tier IV compliant this year. I hate to think what that is like.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 16, 2013)

Foragefarmer said:


> Bluetec is a diesel engine.


 
Yes, a technology that is used in automobile diesel engines. (and trucks as well).  I was highlighting the fact that the urea refills are at much longer intervals than every fuel fill up.


----------



## NortheastAl (Jan 16, 2013)

remkel said:


> I think this is where my reaction came from. I feel for you folks in NY!


Yup, we did once have our freedoms.


----------



## BrotherBart (Jan 16, 2013)

I should put this one in the Ash Can but off to the Inglenook for more urea discussion.

BTW: Truck manufacturers had to retrograde diesel engines with turbo smoke kits back in 1973.


----------



## remkel (Jan 16, 2013)

I





BrotherBart said:


> I should put this one in the Ash Can but off to the Inglenook for more urea discussion.
> 
> BTW: Truck manufacturers had to retrograde diesel engines with turbo smoke kits back in 1973.



I am surprised it took you this long


----------



## Huntindog1 (Jan 16, 2013)

Nothing wrong with this topic about EPA stuff in the EPA stove board.

Who ever pointed to it, I agree  there is a relationship between all these emissions stuff , dont matter what its about wood stoves ,engines, etc....

Alot of the technology is the same just different ways to implement it.


----------



## ddahlgren (Jan 16, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Your right that SUVs get a big break... For a long time they had their own separate set of standards for both emissions and fuel economy. But the knee jerk reason of "no regulations ever" is no answer.


 
Never suggested none but a lets use our head and measure the real impact with units that make sense.
dave


----------



## StihlHead (Jan 16, 2013)

loadstarken said:


> Last year I was doing some reasearch for my father in law because he wanted a OWB and I found him the "Greenwood" boiler which claims that "model XXX is the only wood boiler certified in Washington state. My question is can they be used in a Stage 2 burn ban? I sent them an email and received no replies.


 
Currently we are experiencing an inversion right now in the PNW. That means that warm air is trapping cold air under it and smoke gets trapped in the lower air layers. As a result WA state has issued burn bans at different levels in several different areas.

A WA state Stage 1 burn ban is in effect in 8 counties right now, mostly in eastern and southern WA. A Stage 1 burn ban limits burning to indoor certified wood burning devices only. All outdoor burning - including residential, agricultural and forest burning - is prohibited. Certified being WA state certified wood and pellet burning stoves, inserts, etc. Burning in uncertified devices is prohibited, with the one exception being if it's a homeowner's _only_ source of heat. And to answer your question more specifically: A WA state Stage 2 burn ban is in effect for 4 counties in the Puget Sound area right now, including Seattle and Tacoma. Under the stage 2 burn ban, all wood (and pellet) burning indoors or outdoors is prohibited, with the one exception being if it's a homeowner's _only_ source of heat. Violators can face fines up to $1,000.

So the Greenwood IWB is just another certified wood burning device in WA. As such, with the one exception that it is the only heating device in the house, you cannot use it (or any other wood or pellet burning device) in a Stage 2 burn ban.


----------



## begreen (Jan 16, 2013)

Doug MacIVER said:


> I can see it now a tremendous growth in the private sector to build new boilers, engines, and stoves,sure .Growthin jobs at the epa, probably.I'll be honest ,a nobel cause is clean air but at a tremendous cost in the economy.Unilateral adjustments continue to make us more and more less competitive on the world market. Try slapping tariffs on products made in china or any asian country that doesn't follow these new regs and see what happens. I have no answer here but alone we are using a tsp to lower sea levels.


 
Quite to the contrary. Selling dirty vehicles, stoves, engines hurts us in the global marketplace. Developing nations, in particular, China and India want cleaner solutions. Europe is also looking for them. We are more competitive when the products we make for the domestic market are equally marketable globally. It's another reason why we should convert off the Imperial system to metric. Only Liberia and Burma remain on this archaic standard.


----------



## begreen (Jan 16, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> Currently we are experiencing an inversion right now in the PNW. That means that warm air is trapping cold air under it and smoke gets trapped in the lower air layers. As a result WA state has issued burn bans at different levels in several different areas.
> 
> A WA state Stage 1 burn ban is in effect in 8 counties right now, mostly in eastern and southern WA. A Stage 1 burn ban limits burning to indoor certified wood burning devices only. All outdoor burning - including residential, agricultural and forest burning - is prohibited. Certified being WA state certified wood and pellet burning stoves, inserts, etc. Burning in uncertified devices is prohibited, with the one exception being if it's a homeowner's _only_ source of heat. And to answer your question more specifically: A WA state Stage 2 burn ban is in effect for 4 counties in the Puget Sound area right now, including Seattle and Tacoma. Under the stage 2 burn ban, all wood (and pellet) burning indoors or outdoors is prohibited, with the one exception being if it's a homeowner's _only_ source of heat. Violators can face fines up to $1,000.
> 
> So the Greenwood IWB is just another certified wood burning device in WA. As such, with the one exception that it is the only heating device in the house, you cannot use it (or any other wood or pellet burning device) in a Stage 2 burn ban.


 
FYI - They lifted the stage 2 burn ban for us at 1pm yesterday. There is no burn ban for King and Kitsap. Pierce and Snohomish counties are at stage 1 currently.


----------



## StihlHead (Jan 16, 2013)

That's odd, I pulled the data off of King 5 News, as of 3:15pm yesterday and the local news here listed it today.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50470670

But the general Stage 2 burning limits are accurate as far as I know.


----------



## begreen (Jan 16, 2013)

Smoke em if ya got em' (EPA phase 2 and cleanly please).





http://www.pscleanair.org/airq/status.aspx


----------



## StihlHead (Jan 16, 2013)

You would think that King5 would have read that web page... um, well, the local news brain trust for you... never mind.

Bimbo blonde on typical PNW TV news: "Today will be 40 degrees and warm and sunny! Unless we get lovely snow!" Smile...


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 16, 2013)

begreen said:


> Quite to the contrary. Selling dirty vehicles, stoves, engines hurts us in the global marketplace. Developing nations, in particular, China and India want cleaner solutions. Europe is also looking for them. We are more competitive when the products we make for the domestic market are equally marketable globally. It's another reason why we should convert off the Imperial system to metric. Only Liberia and Burma remain on this archaic standard.


 You've got to be kidding. China will copy any product we make ,use our restrictions for our use and build it in a dirty plant.Then we'll find out the paint has solvents in it we can't use and their cast,if it be that type, is substandard.Cleaner solutions! No improvement in their air as seen by post in this thread.How manyUS made stoves are sold in China,I'll let you look that up,I won't waste my time.
What was that B. Russell said?
one more thing, go ahead and cut your wood in centimeters.


----------



## Treacherous (Jan 16, 2013)

Doug MacIVER said:


> How manyUS made stoves are sold in China,I'll let you look that up,I won't waste my time.
> What was that B. Russell said?


 
Last summer when I took Travis Industries factory tour I met Kurt Rumens (founder of Lopi and President of Travis Industries). He told our group they are opening up a couple sales outlets in China for their US manufactured stoves. He stated the market was wealthy Chinese who are interested in quality US and European goods.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 16, 2013)

Treacherous said:


> Last summer when I took Travis Industries factory tour I met Kurt Rumens (founder of Lopi and President of Travis Industries). He told our group they are opening up a couple sales outlets in China for their US manufactured stoves. He stated the market was wealthy Chinese who are interested in quality US and European goods.


 one.


----------



## begreen (Jan 16, 2013)

Doug MacIVER said:


> You've got to be kidding. China will copy any product we make ,use our restrictions for our use and build it in a dirty plant.Then we'll find out the paint has solvents in it we can't use and their cast,if it be that type, is substandard.Cleaner solutions! No improvement in their air as seen by post in this thread.How manyUS made stoves are sold in China,I'll let you look that up,I won't waste my time.
> What was that B. Russell said?
> one more thing, go ahead and cut your wood in centimeters.


 
China buys lots of our vehicles and motors, lots. And we sell lots of woodstoves in Japan and Korea as well. American products usually stand for quality. Folks around the world will pay for that quality as long as we keep it up.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 16, 2013)

The Chinese have a fascination with Buick ( they pronounce it 'bic') and pretty much anything else American. However the models they get are not the same as are sold here and are built in local factories. German cars are also popular, all the cabs are VW and you see BMW and Mercedes on the street.

Chinese manufacturingis still dirty but the people are increasingly unhappy with the conditions. The government knows this and is under a lot of pressure to clean things up and keep the peace. In spite of their efforts they can't hide the truth in the info age and they know it. When you travel over there you see solar going up all over the place and all kinds of efforts to reduce electric usage etc.

The still have along way to go however. I will resist the temptation to go on my usual rant against people who read and believe unfounded stereotypes of countries they have never visited.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 17, 2013)

jharkin said:


> The Chinese have a fascination with Buick ( they pronounce it 'bic') and pretty much anything else American. However the models they get are not the same as are sold here and are built in local factories. German cars are also popular, all the cabs are VW and you see BMW and Mercedes on the street.
> 
> Chinese manufacturingis still dirty but the people are increasingly unhappy with the conditions. The government knows this and is under a lot of pressure to clean things up and keep the peace. In spite of their efforts they can't hide the truth in the info age and they know it. When you travel over there you see solar going up all over the place and all kinds of efforts to reduce electric usage etc.
> 
> The still have along way to go however. I will resist the temptation to go on my usual rant against people who read and believe unfounded stereotypes of countries they have never visited.


 
They have visited my factory without physically being there.I've lost upwards to 1 million in business to them and the jobs that went with those products, Example ,the mens elevator shoes worn by thousands of short  people,thanks randy neuman,I make the insole.Not any more.That insole now comes to the USA, with it's dozen or so operations, for a cost of less than than the materials to make it stateside,landed.#2 A $ .04 operation cutting felt for toys,that is four cents?#3 an adjustable heel pad for people with uneven leg length, thousands of pieces, 10 operations, jobs, same story as the elevator in sole.

and you slyly tell me I don't know what I'm talking about?My story is the same story in the clothing,under garment, furniture,you name it industry.You'll be happy with your token companies,shoes have a few Alden,AllenEdmonds, and our shining token,New Balence. They still make running shoe here in the USA.More than Phil Knight can say.JMHO


----------



## Huntindog1 (Jan 17, 2013)

You guys can keep focus on the Chinese stealing your buisness but american companies are filling engineering jobs and other jobs here at home by the thousands with people from other countries.

What has happened in the mean time wake up call next election what used to be the majority voting in this country will no longer be a majority.

Welcome to the new USA.


----------



## TradEddie (Jan 17, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> Welcome to the new USA.


 
As one of those foreigners filling your vacant science and engineering jobs, thank you, I'm enjoying it here.

TE


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 17, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> You guys can keep focus on the Chinese stealing your buisness but american companies are filling engineering jobs and other jobs here at home by the thousands with people from other countries.
> 
> What has happened in the mean time wake up call next election what used to be the majority voting in this country will no longer be a majority.
> 
> Welcome to the new USA.


 when you produce things with your hands like a shoe it takes people. engineers design the machine hands run it,even with all the advances in tech in an old industry still need hands to last a shoe , cut the leather ,in high end stuff stitch it, ect. people at that end obviously aren't engineer types,but we did supply a decent living for many for a good long time.hands in china in today shoe factories make what we did in the 1950's or even a little less.
  the population here is forever changing.not from  europe any more now as you know, far east and south of the boarder and south america, nothing new just a slower influx


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 17, 2013)

TradEddie said:


> As one of those foreigners filling your vacant science and engineering jobs, thank you, I'm enjoying it here.
> 
> TE


welcome to the USA may you enjoy sucess


----------



## StihlHead (Jan 17, 2013)

Huntindog1 said:


> You guys can keep focus on the Chinese stealing your buisness but american companies are filling engineering jobs and other jobs here at home by the thousands with people from other countries.
> 
> What has happened in the mean time wake up call next election what used to be the majority voting in this country will no longer be a majority.
> 
> Welcome to the new USA.


 
My engineering job designing microprocessors went to China 8 years ago. But the large US companies still claim that they cannot fill engineering jobs with US employees. They have been pulling that crap for about 20 years now to get cheap H1-B labor here. In truth though, most of the better engineering jobs have been off-shored to India and China.

Majority? Wake up call? We have been sold down the river long ago.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 17, 2013)

StihlHead said:


> My engineering job designing microprocessors went to China 8 years ago. But the large US companies still claim that they cannot fill engineering jobs with US employees. They have been pulling that crap for about 20 years now to get cheap H1-B labor here. In truth though, most of the better engineering jobs have been off-shored to India and China.
> 
> Majority? Wake up call? We have been sold down the river long ago.


 there is no boundry on quality ,it's found everywhere in the world.question is should other places like china have to live under our epa rules when then export products here. chances are they'd tell us to go sh!t in our hat.


----------



## save$ (Jan 17, 2013)

Do your homework when you spend your money.   If you want American jobs, then they have to be supported.   I have found that some products do cost a little more, but in the long run,  you really are investing in our children's future when you buy American made products.  I think there is once again an American made tv.  From what I read, they are selling very well.   I wish Apple would come home if only to supply this market.   There is more to it than labor cost.  Taxes and nimbys discourage domestic growth.   There was a nearby town where they a had a sewerage treatment plant.  There was a candle factory that wanted to locate in a vacated paper making pant that was close to the sewerage plant.   Some nimbys got wind of the proposed candle plant, they put up such a stink that the cande factory said they would go where the jobs and taxes were welcomed.   Go figure.


----------



## Retired Guy (Jan 17, 2013)

begreen said:


> Before you all go nuts worrying, did any one read the dates on this? It's seven years from now, with a possible 5 year extension. And most of the current stoves in production now meet the standard. Otherwise they could not be sold in WA or OR. (Guess where a lot of your stoves are made.) Relax, the sky is not falling. And our govt. is not the enemy.
> 
> Seems like there will be lots of productivity and production in providing solutions to these issues. That = jobs.


Ok by me, 7 Years - I'll be dead then.


----------



## Huntindog1 (Jan 17, 2013)

save$ said:


> Do your homework when you spend your money. If you want American jobs, then they have to be supported. I have found that some products do cost a little more, but in the long run, you really are investing in our children's future when you buy American made products. I think there is once again an American made tv. From what I read, they are selling very well. I wish Apple would come home if only to supply this market. There is more to it than labor cost. Taxes and nimbys discourage domestic growth. There was a nearby town where they a had a sewerage treatment plant. There was a candle factory that wanted to locate in a vacated paper making pant that was close to the sewerage plant. Some nimbys got wind of the proposed candle plant, they put up such a stink that the cande factory said they would go where the jobs and taxes were welcomed. Go figure.


 

We were talking about hire Americans. US companies are recruiting employees by the thousands from over seas and giving them the jobs your kids might need someday . Long term reality is that the future of America isnt our future anymore its the future of people in other countries.

Take this one step further is there is not just only supply and demand of goods and services there is supply and demand of employees. My going to other countries the big US companies are short changing the supply and demand of the American worker. They are increasing the supply by bringing in excess workers ,then that waters down the wages.

If your skill is in demand then your wages should naturally go up as the demand for you goes up. But your demand for your skills is going down as they flood the market with workers from all over the world.


----------



## jharkin (Jan 18, 2013)

Doug MacIVER said:


> They have visited my factory without physically being there.I've lost upwards to 1 million in business to them and the jobs that went with those products, Example ,the mens elevator shoes worn by thousands of short people,thanks randy neuman,I make the insole.Not any more.That insole now comes to the USA, with it's dozen or so operations, for a cost of less than than the materials to make it stateside,landed.#2 A $ .04 operation cutting felt for toys,that is four cents?#3 an adjustable heel pad for people with uneven leg length, thousands of pieces, 10 operations, jobs, same story as the elevator in sole.
> 
> and you slyly tell me I don't know what I'm talking about?My story is the same story in the clothing,under garment, furniture,you name it industry.You'll be happy with your token companies,shoes have a few Alden,AllenEdmonds, and our shining token,New Balence. They still make running shoe here in the USA.More than Phil Knight can say.JMHO


 
I was not attacking you personally... Just the implication that people seem to think the Chinese don't care about their sorry environment. Their people do, their government put economic growth first, but that is ...slowly.. But is changing.

What I don't agree with is the race to the bottom. The idea that to beat them we have to deregulate and be dirtier here. That way we all loose.... And in fact we would never get jobs back anyway as its cost of living, currency manipulation and subsidy that gives them the cost advantage much ,ore then their loose environmental rules.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 18, 2013)

jharkin said:


> I was not attacking you personally... Just the implication that people seem to think the Chinese don't care about their sorry environment. Their people do, their government put economic growth first, but that is ...slowly.. But is changing.
> 
> What I don't agree with is the race to the bottom. The idea that to beat them we have to deregulate and be dirtier here. That way we all loose.... And in fact we would never get jobs back anyway as its cost of living, currency manipulation and subsidy that gives them the cost advantage much ,ore then their loose environmental rules.


 
 Your not reading, we cannot do it UNILATERALLY. With no repercussions they'll still produce the cheapest way,it is the nature of business. Look at the recent recall of milo's kichen dog treats.They didn't find this stuff bad, we did. Don't give me that us companies have the same problem, China in general don't care as much as we do.If we add regs,make sure that they play by the same rule book or don't let it in.Free trade/fair trade, make it work and American workers have a chance.India pretty much the same,thanks for your reply


----------



## jharkin (Jan 18, 2013)

Chinese business leaders and the corrupt party bosses don't care... It is Not the same as the general population.

I agree we are too soft on them, but if you want to keep talking in stereotypes I'm done.


----------



## TradEddie (Jan 18, 2013)

Doug, I have to point out that your writing style isn't exactly a shining beacon for the quality of US education or products...

EPA regulations are intended to save lives and protect the environment. Of course, politics and vested interests corrupt the intent, and practicalities prevent truly effective action, but if losing some jobs to China is the cost of clean air, that's fine by me. We could take back some jobs from China by eliminating EPA, OSHA, CAFE Standards, minimum wages or child labor laws, but is that how you'd like to live?

TE


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 18, 2013)

jharkin said:


> Chinese business leaders and the corrupt party bosses don't care... It is Not the same as the general population.
> 
> I agree we are too soft on them, but if you want to keep talking in stereotypes I'm done.


 PLEASE, not one word in my statements about the general public. Trade is between countries right, that means governments.We are having a discussion about epa here,part of our gov't. im sure all peoples of the world do the same about theirs. we have to live by our laws,like them or not, as they live with their laws. we just discuss it more freely.

as i said before quality has no boundries, today china has probably some of the finest shoemakers in the world, good enough to make "foot joy classics".can't resist here foot joy was a great customer of over fifty years, oh well i regress.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 18, 2013)

TradEddie said:


> Doug, I have to point out that your writing style isn't exactly a shining beacon for the quality of US education or products...
> 
> EPA regulations are intended to save lives and protect the environment. Of course, politics and vested interests corrupt the intent, and practicalities prevent truly effective action, but if losing some jobs to China is the cost of clean air, that's fine by me. We could take back some jobs from China by eliminating EPA, OSHA, CAFE Standards, minimum wages or child labor laws, but is that how you'd like to live?
> 
> TE


 never said eliminating those departments of our gov't is what this is about,so the answer is no. just make sure we have an equal playing field.my statement about osha was to point out how insane some rules are. hell my style got meself as batchelor of science, arizona '73. meself just for fun if you didn't get it.


----------



## Doug MacIVER (Jan 18, 2013)

TradEddie said:


> Doug, I have to point out that your writing style isn't exactly a shining beacon for the quality of US education or products...
> 
> EPA regulations are intended to save lives and protect the environment. Of course, politics and vested interests corrupt the intent, and practicalities prevent truly effective action, but if losing some jobs to China is the cost of clean air, that's fine by me. We could take back some jobs from China by eliminating EPA, OSHA, CAFE Standards, minimum wages or child labor laws, but is that how you'd like to live?
> 
> TE


 just noticed your reference to products? if you've ever worn a quality american made men's shoe like{here comes the list} E.T. Wright, Foot-Joy,Frye, Walk-Over,Alden,Florsheim.Herman Suvivors,if you served, military dress, Johnson & murphy, you walked on my products. i'm sure you must have been able to find the poor quality of my product in those great names .condescending statements and attitudes really have no place in a good discussion,but i'm sure you already know that.


----------



## Jags (Jan 18, 2013)

Now, I wish I were a mod.


----------



## begreen (Jan 18, 2013)

Doug MacIVER said:


> just noticed your reference to products? if you've ever worn a quality american made men's shoe like{here comes the list} E.T. Wright, Foot-Joy,Frye, Walk-Over,Alden,Florsheim.Herman Suvivors,if you served, military dress, Johnson & murphy, you walked on my products. i'm sure you must have been able to find the poor quality of my product in those great names .condescending statements and attitudes really have no place in a good discussion,but i'm sure you already know that.


 
Well, that is about as far off topic as could be. Closing this one down.


----------

