# Ceiling Paint Chipping?



## soupy1957 (Jan 3, 2013)

I guess it was about 3 years ago now, that we went thru a home renovation for a new addition, front porch, rear deck, kitchen remodel.

Since that remodel (which was shortly after the instal of our wood stove), we've seen our ceiling in the living room (where the wood stove lives) show multiple locations of paint chipping.

We're working with the Contractor (same one that is doing a bathroom remodel right now) and the Professional Painter who painted the living room ceiling, to see if we can figure out "why" we are seeing this "chipping" of the paint, that didn't happen prior to the previous construction project.

Naturally, I figure the paint (possibly) is not standing up to the temperature variations, potentially brought on by a "hot" wood stove, but there may be another explanation.

Now that you have the "back story," I'm obviously wondering if anyone in here recognizes this situation in your own home, and might be able to share your findings, solutions, etc..

-soupy1957


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## RSNovi (Jan 3, 2013)

I have about 3 year old Valspar latex paint directly behind my stove with proper clearance and thankfully it still looks fine.  It does get quite warm.


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## soupy1957 (Jan 3, 2013)

RSNovi said:


> I have about 3 year old Valspar latex paint directly behind my stove with proper clearance and thankfully it still looks fine.  It does get quite warm.



BEHIND our stove is custom brick work.  This issue is with the ceiling forward of the wood stove, past the midway point in the room, towards the front of the house; now spreading across the whole ceiling, in patches.

-soupy1957


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## RSNovi (Jan 3, 2013)

I guess I was trying to say that some latex paint can hold up to the heat of the stove.


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## corey21 (Jan 3, 2013)

My stove room gets real warm but no paint chipping.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 3, 2013)

No paint chipping . . . but we've had a dickens of a time with the mudding job where the sheetrock comes together near the stove . . . we've tried various types of mud, different techniques and it keeps cracking . . . which is why we eventually plan to go with some stonework around the stove.


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## bayfeet (Jan 3, 2013)

soupy1957 said:


> I guess it was about 3 years ago now, that we went thru a home renovation for a new addition, front porch, rear deck, kitchen remodel.
> 
> Since that remodel (which was shortly after the instal of our wood stove), we've seen our ceiling in the living room (where the wood stove lives) show multiple locations of paint chipping.
> 
> ...


Our living room ceiling had paint chipping before installation of the stove. It seems as though the stove has certainly increased the amount of chipping in our living room as well. I'm interested in the replies and hopefully after some prep work there is some type of interior latex that is more resistant to the heat.  It's the last thing I want to do this time of year.


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## jdp1152 (Jan 3, 2013)

Did you do the remodel yourself?  Do you know the state of the ceiling prior to the remodel?  We bought a fully renovated condo many years back and the company that did the job just slapped a heavy coat of paint over the existing paint that was already a bit flakey.  The result was that it hid the issue for a few years and then all of a sudden, all around the house it started to flake away.  I have this same problem going on in one of my bathrooms right now.  Painting over problem spots without removing the distressed paint job is akin to slapping a bandaid on laceration from coral.  You might stop the bleeding, but the infection isn't going away.


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## Beer Belly (Jan 3, 2013)

Guessing......Paint "peeling", I would say it's in the prep work (surface condition)....."chipping" I would relate to expansion and contraction, or impact.....what is in the area of the chipping ???....on the opposite side of the sheetrock ???...it's even more of a puzzle being it's here and there, and not consistant like a crack


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## Eaglecraft (Jan 3, 2013)

soupy1957 said:


> I guess it was about 3 years ago now, that we went thru a home renovation for a new addition, front porch, rear deck, kitchen remodel.
> 
> Since that remodel (which was shortly after the instal of our wood stove), we've seen our ceiling in the living room (where the wood stove lives) show multiple locations of paint chipping.
> 
> ...


 
As jdp implied, preparation is everything in obtaining a long-lasting paint job. Also the quality and type of paint is important as well. I have been remodeling a 60 year old house over the years that had 1) bad paint work, and 2) seriously cracked plaster in almost all walls and ceilings. Only by sanding down to bare plaster, using an oil-based primer over the bare plaster, and then top-coating with the best paint that I can buy, can I achieve the results that I am looking for.

On my bathroom ceiling, for example, I used an exterior/interior gloss white paint for the best moisture resistance and durability possible. Interior/exterior semi-gloss paint would also be good for bathroom ceilings. The walls are not as sensitive to moisture, so satin latex is OK. Often, flat latex paint applied on bathroom ceilings will fail.

The chips have to sanded away so that you obtain a smooth finish. It is likely that you will also have to apply a skim coat of all-purpose joint compound over the primed surface to obtain a good-looking paint job. Painting with gloss paint is not easy. You have got to be quick and steady with the paint roller to avoid lap marks, etc.

So the sequence that I have used for my plaster walls is this: 1) sand down to the bare walls, 2) prime with oil-based primer, 3) skim coat with all-purpose joint compound, 4) prime again with latex or oil-based primer, 5) top coat twice with the appropriate and the best paint that you can buy. Is this a lot of work? You bet it is. But the paint jobs have been holding up.


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## Eaglecraft (Jan 3, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> No paint chipping . . . but we've had a dickens of a time with the mudding job where the sheetrock comes together near the stove . . . we've tried various types of mud, different techniques and it keeps cracking . . . which is why we eventually plan to go with some stonework around the stove.


 
Jake:

Have you tried using "hot mud" over paper joint tape at the crack? One method that does work is to apply a mesh over the entire wall, embedding that mesh in "hot mud," sanding, then skim coating with all-prupose joint compound. This surfance has to sanded, primed and painted.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 3, 2013)

Eaglecraft said:


> Jake:
> 
> Have you tried using "hot mud" over paper joint tape at the crack? One method that does work is to apply a mesh over the entire wall, embedding that mesh in "hot mud," sanding, then skim coating with all-prupose joint compound. This surfance has to sanded, primed and painted.


 
Hot mud? Since I am not familiar with this . . . I would have to say no. Honestly, at this point we kind of figure we'll go with the stone anyways . . . if the clearances work I hope to put up some Durock and then go with stone veneer.


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## thewoodlands (Jan 3, 2013)

soupy1957 said:


> I guess it was about 3 years ago now, that we went thru a home renovation for a new addition, front porch, rear deck, kitchen remodel.
> 
> Since that remodel (which was shortly after the instal of our wood stove), we've seen our ceiling in the living room (where the wood stove lives) show multiple locations of paint chipping.
> 
> ...


 This is from 2001.
http://www.plasterlord.com/notebook/fcalcimine.htm


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## begreen (Jan 3, 2013)

Not sure if this is stove related. What is the ceiling material? Was it previously painted? Is there a moisture issue in the ceiling?


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## RORY12553 (Jan 3, 2013)

I have noticed that the rubber molding at bottom of the door near my stove has cracking...also noticed that certain seams that were tapped on the sheetroock in the house is coming apart....really think it is a moisture issue being the lack of


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## semipro (Jan 3, 2013)

Soupy I'm betting on bad surface prep or poor quality paint.  
Even though drywall should be primed before painting its often not.


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## Eaglecraft (Jan 3, 2013)

firefighterjake said:


> Hot mud? Since I am not familiar with this . . . I would have to say no. Honestly, at this point we kind of figure we'll go with the stone anyways . . . if the clearances work I hope to put up some Durock and then go with stone veneer.


 
Jake:

Hot mud is "setting type" joint compound. I use SheetRock brand that I buy from HD. It's called Lightweight Setting-Type Joint Compound. "All Purpose" type joint compound "dries." Setting type "cures." Hot mud is called "hot" because you only have a fixed number of minutes of working time before it becomes hard as a rock. I usually buy 90 minute setting time, although the pros use 30 minute and even 5 minute. 

The advantage of hot mud is that it is very strong and less subject to shrinking and joint cracking. Hot mud can be used to finish sheet rock joints and to repair cracks in joints and in plaster. Hot mud has one major disadvantage when compared to "drying" All-Purpose Joint Compound: It's much harder to sand than All-Purpose. And there is always sanding involved in finishing drywall or plaster.

The pros say that paper tape is better than fiberglass tape to set joints and fix cracks - just the opposite of what you might think. The paper is stronger when pulled than the fiberglass - which distorts.

I have used "hot mud" successfully in repairing cracks in my plaster walls and ceilings: 1) dig out the crack with the point of a bottle opener, 2) fill the crack with hot mud, 3) over the crack just filled, embed paper tape using more hot mud, 4) smooth out the mud using a taping knife, 5) Let cure, 6) sand repair smooth, 7) spot prime the repair, 8) skim coat the entire repair area with All-purpose Joint Compound, 9) sand smooth, 10) prime, 11) paint.

Unless the cracked wall or ceiling has structural problems and is subject to moving, the above process yields a permanent repair.


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## soupy1957 (Jan 3, 2013)

JDP1152: Licensed Contractors all; Condition of ceiling prior to both the remodel three years ago was old but no peeling, chipping or other issues.

Beer Belly: I too thought it might have been the settling of the front porch (added in remodel), putting pressure
on the ceiling, causing peeling (but I was told it would cause it to "crack".....not "peel" if that were the case).  There are no cracks.

BeGree: Drywall ceiling board. previously painted, no moisture.

SemiPro: we had a licensed contracted (by the Contractor who did the project) Painter do the work.  He came back once already and repainted a smaller area that had shown some chipping, once already.  Now the problem has migrated to a number of areas.  Contractor is going to contact the painter and see what they can do for us (we are under warranty).

Aside from the topic at hand (somewhat): This is the second time we have used this Contractor for our home improvement projects.  Although we have much "good" we can say about their workmanship, the ceiling issue and some new "issues" have begun to put a bad taste in my mouth with them. In the last two days, we've had a window broken that they bumped when installing the new tub; a family heirloom (sp?) ceramic toothbrush holder in the OTHER bathroom (that they use as needed) broken; nails blown out of an adjacent wall when they sledge-hammered the old tub apart...........I'm just hoping that we won't see any ADDITIONAL issues over the next 3 or 4 days of this project.


-Soupy1957


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## Jack Straw (Jan 3, 2013)

I would also vote for either bad or no primer and or a moisture issue. Do you have a vapor barrier above the sheetrock and is there proper ventilation above the insulation?

I do get some cracks in some of my sheetrock seems in the winter that go away in the summer.


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## Eaglecraft (Jan 3, 2013)

soupy1957 said:


> JDP1152: Licensed Contractors all; Condition of ceiling prior to both the remodel three years ago was old but no peeling, chipping or other issues.
> 
> Beer Belly: I too thought it might have been the settling of the front porch (added in remodel), putting pressure
> on the ceiling, causing peeling (but I was told it would cause it to "crack".....not "peel" if that were the case). There are no cracks.
> ...


 
Soupy:

Sorry to hear that you are having these problems - especially with your contractors.

I would ask your painting contractor point blank how he intends to repair the failing paint. That is, what is the repair process that he will use. I realize that this can be a touchy subject with any contractor - but still - from what you have stated - he has had to come back again to fix a previously failed job.

How high is the top of the wood stove from your ceiling? Unless your stove is very close to the ceiling, I do not think that the heat from the stove is causing the paint problem. There is something else going on here. If the surface to be painted is sound and dry, it should hold a good paint job.

Will your contractor prime the ceiling, if not, why not? If so, will he use oil-based primer? I have found oil based primer (in my experience, anyway) to be a better primer than most latex based primers. It seems to have better "gripping" power to the surface and to the top-coat. The one exception to that rule might be GARDZ Problem Surface Sealer. I have used GARDZ when repairing cracked plaster walls and it works OK.

What type of paint is the contractor using - flat, semi-gloss, or gloss? The type makes a difference in holding power. How is he applying the paint - spray or roller? This makes a thickness difference. What brand of paint is he using. Engineering tests show that some paints are better than others.

Good luck in fixing your problem ceiling paint.


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## seige101 (Jan 3, 2013)

Eaglecraft said:


> Jake:
> 
> Hot mud is "setting type" joint compound. I use SheetRock brand that I buy from HD. It's called Lightweight Setting-Type Joint Compound. "All Purpose" type joint compound "dries." Setting type "cures." Hot mud is called "hot" because you only have a fixed number of minutes of working time before it becomes hard as a rock. I usually buy 90 minute setting time, although the pros use 30 minute and even 5 minute.


 
Is this similar to durabond or the same thing with a different trade name?


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## Eaglecraft (Jan 3, 2013)

seige101 said:


> Is this similar to durabond or the same thing with a different trade name?


 
Seige 101:

SheetRock brand Lightweight, Setting Type Joint Compound is similar to, but not the same formula as, SheetRock brand DURABOND Setting Compound. The main difference being that DURABOND is harder still to sand than its "LightWeght" counterpart.

Sanding is such a pain in the *** that lighter is better for finishing and repairing. However, I would use DURABOND to set taped joints - tough as nails.


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## soupy1957 (Jan 4, 2013)

Eaglecraft: _"I would ask your painting contractor point blank how he intends to repair the failing paint"_
(that's what's going on currently)

_"How high is the top of the wood stove from your ceiling?"_
(about 6 feet or 7)

_"Will your contractor prime the ceiling?"_
(yes)

_"What type of paint is the contractor using - flat, semi-gloss, or gloss?"_
(Don't recall; wife knows ....lol)

_"How is he applying the paint - spray or roller?"_
(Roller)

-Soupy1957


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## Corey (Jan 4, 2013)

Only place I've noticed ceiling paint peeling/chipping in my house was in a bathroom.  I replaced the exhaust fan and didn't fully get the insulation back around the new fan.  During the winter, cold and moisture combined to peel the paint only in the spot the insulation was disturbed.  Next spring, I redid the insulation for a better fit around the new work.  No more peeling. 

If the wood stove is causing it, the damage should be centered around the wood stove with less peeling as you move away.  'multiple locations' sounds like this is not the case.  Any chance the insulation over the living room was disturbed for any reason?  Crawling through to get to other portions of the house for remodel?  Install new light/electric fixtures? Re-do drywall?  Basically, anything which allows a portion of the ceiling to get cold will cause humidity to condense there...just like a cold window pane.  Moisture in the drywall will cause paint to peel.


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## Eaglecraft (Jan 4, 2013)

Corey said:


> Only place I've noticed ceiling paint peeling/chipping in my house was in a bathroom. I replaced the exhaust fan and didn't fully get the insulation back around the new fan. During the winter, cold and moisture combined to peel the paint only in the spot the insulation was disturbed. Next spring, I redid the insulation for a better fit around the new work. No more peeling.
> 
> If the wood stove is causing it, the damage should be centered around the wood stove with less peeling as you move away. 'multiple locations' sounds like this is not the case. Any chance the insulation over the living room was disturbed for any reason? Crawling through to get to other portions of the house for remodel? Install new light/electric fixtures? Re-do drywall? Basically, anything which allows a portion of the ceiling to get cold will cause humidity to condense there...just like a cold window pane. Moisture in the drywall will cause paint to peel.


 
Corey:

Like you, I'm thinking that there might be a moisture problem behind the sheetrock. Without checking the building code, I believe that vapor barriers are required in Connecticut. If there is not a vapor barrier, or, as you suggest, if the insulation has been disturbed, then moisture can condense on the cold side of the sheetrock. This moisture will cause the paint to crack and peel. Also, sealing all the ceiling penetrations - light fixtures, etc. - could help the situation.

The only way to really determine what's going on is to have some young buck get up in that ceiling and have a look-see. Given that there is a problem, I would use at least semi-gloss paint on that ceiling. But still, the only sure way to make the paint stick is to have and maintain a dry surface.


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## soupy1957 (Jan 4, 2013)

_"If the wood stove is causing it, the damage should be centered around the wood stove with less peeling as you move away."_

That's what "I" thought, but the Contractor states that the "coldest part of the ceiling is toward the front (where the chipping is occurring) and the chipping is happening in that region, as opposed to around the stove.

I guess I'm to assume that the "colder" part of the ceiling would be more prone to damage (if I understand HIS logic).

-Soupy1957


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## semipro (Jan 4, 2013)

soupy1957 said:


> Contractor states that the "coldest part of the ceiling is toward the front (where the chipping is occurring)


That does make it sound more like a moisture issue.


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## Corey (Jan 4, 2013)

Eaglecraft said:


> Corey:
> 
> Like you, I'm thinking that there might be a moisture problem behind the sheetrock. Without checking the building code, I believe that vapor barriers are required in Connecticut. If there is not a vapor barrier, or, as you suggest, if the insulation has been disturbed, then moisture can condense on the cold side of the sheetrock. This moisture will cause the paint to crack and peel. Also, sealing all the ceiling penetrations - light fixtures, etc. - could help the situation.
> 
> The only way to really determine what's going on is to have some young buck get up in that ceiling and have a look-see. Given that there is a problem, I would use at least semi-gloss paint on that ceiling. But still, the only sure way to make the paint stick is to have and maintain a dry surface.


 
Vapor barrier is always a good idea, though it is more to stop moisture getting into the insulation.  The paint peeling is more of a surface issue with the drywall, so may or may not be dependent on the vapor barrier.  One could almost argue the vapor barrier could make paint peeling worse as the moisture would be 'trapped' at the drywall whereas with no vapor barrier, at least moisture could diffuse through the drywall and out the other side...better for the drywall, but worse for the insulation.

A look up top would certainly tell a lot, though some probing with a moisture meter and/or scan with an IR camera may reveal a lot, too - if those tools happen to be available.

If the peeling is happening away from the wood stove, that may lend more weight to a cold / condensing moisture issue, but would also mean the woodstove isn't necessarily causing the issue - may actually be helping prevent it - at least above the stove where the ceiling can be warm and dry.


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## basod (Jan 5, 2013)

Had a more disastrous situation when I was in college working for a GC.
We had remodeled an old summer cottage and insulated/heated it for winter use around the holidays.
Homeowner called my employer saying sheets of paint were peeling through certain rooms.
It was a mess but not the cause of the new paint, two layers behind it failed determined to be from heating the house quickly when it had never been heated before.

See if you can inspect a chip or the edge for different coloring, if it's just one layer then my guess would be the ceiling wasn't prepped/cleaned properly


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## eclecticcottage (Jan 5, 2013)

Do you have any pics?


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2013)

It sounds like there may be a condensation issue due to the difference between the cold area and the heated house space. You might want to cut out a sample area of the sheetrock there. Those conditions can also breed mold on the backside of the sheetrock. Black mold is very unhealthy stuff to have around. Hopefully there will be none, but it would be good to check. If none, I'd get that area insulated and stop the chill.


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## soupy1957 (Jan 9, 2013)

I haven't taken any Pics, but I can I suppose. 

Sometimes, when the wood stove gets crankin and the wife starts complaining, I open two narrow windows in the same room, for ventilation (someone told me long ago............"don't turn down the woodstove,  open a window or two." (the premise being that you promote more creosote buildup with a cooler fire, than a hot burn).

I wonder if the shock to the room structure (ceiling plasterboard and paint in this case) between the cold from the window and the hot from the stove, is the culprit?

-Soupy1957


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## begreen (Jan 10, 2013)

Maybe, but unlikely. Air leakage in the joist cavity letting in cold air in that space would be what I would look for. You're looking for a large temperature differential. Enough to make the ceiling sweat. Do you have a moisture meter? Maybe try it on the ceiling in a few spots.


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## soupy1957 (Jan 11, 2013)

begreen said:


> Maybe, but unlikely. Air leakage in the joist cavity letting in cold air in that space would be what I would look for. You're looking for a large temperature differential. Enough to make the ceiling sweat. Do you have a moisture meter? Maybe try it on the ceiling in a few spots.



Interesting idea!  Yes, I have a moisture meter just a few feet away from where I'm sitting, in the very room where the problem is occurring.  I got the moisture meter (battery seems low, so I'll have to change it out to confirm my findings), and took readings in four locations in the room.  Two in the front by the front wall, about 6 feet apart, and two back near the wood stove, approximately the same distance apart, where the problem is NOT occurring.  

All readings say "Low," but I could not get the meter to show me a digital number, probably due to the low battery.

-soupy1957


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## wantstoburnwood (Jan 13, 2013)

Try peeling back as much peeling as possible. Pick up a product named "Peel Stop" by zinnsser . apply a couple of coats of this product in the affected areas and repaint. You might want to feather the edges before applying. Paint the ceiling and that should be the end of story.


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