# Pacific Energy Super Insert -- Unburnt wood



## kat insert--hearth forum (Jan 11, 2011)

My husband and I purchased a Pacific Energy Super Insert a few months ago to replace an older insert which was built in 1980.  We were hoping to get more heat with less wood and to be more environmentally friendly.  Our insert was connected with an insulated 6-inch flexible liner up our 18-foot masonary chimney.  The problem we are having is THE WOOD NEVER BURNS COMPLETELY TO ASH.  After burning for just five hours we end up with a 4-inch bed of coals, half unburnt.  The more wood we add, the higher the burnt and unburnt coals get.  During reloads, I rake the coals to the front of the stove hoping the primary combustion air will burn them up.  We normally burn the insert between "high" and "medium" ,  but we always end up with unburnt, charred wood pieces approximately 1-3 inches in diameter even after 12+ hours without reloading. We end up shoveling out the unburnt charcoals every morning so we can have room inside the insert to build a fire for the day.   We called our dealer and he said we had too much draft going on and that Pacific Energy suggested installing a 6-inch to 5-inch reducer into the top of our liner just below the raincap.  The dealer installed the reducer last week.   We have since received a bit more heat from the insert, but the unburnt wood chunks remain a problem.  We live in central Ohio and burn seasoned (cut, split, and stacked for one year minimum) hardwoods.  Does anyone out there have any suggestions?


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## jotulguy (Jan 11, 2011)

I think under normal operation you should be setting your air control back to at least 75% closed. I noticed you burn between med and high. I would also be curious of the stove top temps. Do you have a magnetic thermometer? Most inserts you can slip one on above the door between the top of the insert where the hot blower air exits. It may be a case of more heat in the flue then the fire box.


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## kat insert--hearth forum (Jan 11, 2011)

jotulguy-- Thank you for responding so quickly!  We did experiment burning at "low", but we did not get the heat and the wood did not burn completely at that setting either.  We do not have a stove top thermometer, but what should the temperature read?  If the heat is in fact being lost in the flue, how do we get the heat to stay in the insert?


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## jotulguy (Jan 11, 2011)

On the main page of the hearth room there are yellow tabs at the top of the thread section. I recommend reading the one that says new wood burners read ect. They go in to detail about your question.


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## Rudyjr (Jan 11, 2011)

Hi fellow central Ohioan! I had similar problems with my insert early on the first year. I had been an avid wood burner way back in the seventies and eighties. I know that you say that your wood is well seasoned but I suspect it may not be. The highest heat output from your stove should be when the primary air is cut back after a good burn is established. At the tail end of a burn with my stove if you rake the coals forward and add more wood and 100 % primary air you will have a raging inferno in less than five minutes, if you cut the air to 50 % you will have secondary flames that fill the stove and the temperature climbs fast. After another 5-10 minute interval you can cut the air to about 75 % closed and stove will cruise with very active secondaries and high heat output for hours. If left alone there will be virtually nothing but gray ash when it cools.I could not do this until I had good dry wood.


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## begreen (Jan 11, 2011)

The flue setup sounds just about right. But I am wondering if this is an exterior chimney and if a damper sealing blockoff plate was installed? 

From the description it sounds like the stove box is possibly too cool and/or the wood is not quite seasoned yet. These stoves like dry wood. If you have some pine or light wood, try putting a single split on top of the hot coals to help them burn down quicker.

Also, check to be sure the air knockout was removed from the casing side of the insert. It will perform poorly if not.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 11, 2011)

Adding more wood before the coals are burnt down, merely makes more & more coals.
Too much draft making more coals? Too much draft should make that thing run hotter, not cooler with more coals.
This has been a colder than normal winter in most areas. Which will also cool a home down quicker, and cause larger temperature sweeps.
If your impatient and tossing more & more wood in there, your going to have nothing but a bunch of coals. Not saying this is definitely your specific problem, but many suffer this problem while learning and adjusting to their new/different stove or insert.
No offense, but my money would be on the wood not being as "seasoned" as you think it is. Some hardwoods need longer than a year to dry out enough to burn well without leaving a ton of coals.
M<any blame a stove for not burning properly. When in reality, it is either a draft problem, or more often wood that is not as dry as they think.
Keeping the stove air more open than closed is not the way the stove is supposed to be used. Showing there is a problem with the draft or the wood, requiring the need to add more air then normally is necessary.
Once my Summit gets up to 500 or so, if I don't cut the air all the way back, it would spike the thermo no problem. I have 27' of liner and it has major serious draft. I highly doubt at 18' you have too much draft, I would guess the opposite.
I suspect the wood is not dry enough.


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## krex1010 (Jan 11, 2011)

I have the pacific insert which is almost identical to the super insert, 25' of insulated liner, this thing drafts like a stock car and i never have an issue with unburnt wood.  If anything inwouldnthink excessive draft would gave the opposite effect.  If heat output is an issue then check to see if you have a block off plate, and as for the unburnt wood, I would wager that it is a wood issue not a stove issue.  What's your wood supply like? And once you have your fire established, in my experience this stove performs best with the air cut back at least 75% closed.


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## kat insert--hearth forum (Jan 12, 2011)

Hello out there and thank you for your replies!  A few of you suggested that we are burning unseasoned wood which is definitely not the case.  My husband and I personally cut, split, and stacked the hardwoods over a year ago. The wood is also covered and indoors.  For reassurance, I just had my husband test various pieces with our moisture meter just moments ago---all the pieces were under 15% ---even when we split and tested the center of each piece.  

We are not new to burning wood. We used our last insert for 15 years (the insert itself was 30 years old)  but it was inefficient.  I understand there is a learning curve with our new EPA insert and I have been experimenting on a daily basis.   I normally get the fire going well on "high" and then turn it down to "med.".  The logs burn from front to rear, but the rear always has unburnt wood.   If I get the fire going well on "high" and turn it down to "low", the same occurs: it just takes a bit longer.  If I am patient and try to let the coals completely burn up, the house temperature drops and the coals still never burn up.

A few of you suggested that the knockout on the side of the insert may not be "knocked out".  I do not know if the installers knocked this out, but I will certainly ask my dealer tomorrow.  If the knock out plate is removed, will this increase my draft? Do you think it will help with the unburnt wood issue?


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## madison (Jan 12, 2011)

ohio kat said:
			
		

> A few of you suggested that we are burning unseasoned wood which is definitely not the case.  My husband and I personally cut, split, and stacked the hardwoods over a year ago. The wood is also covered and indoors.



"...not the case..."?   Rather than discount the advice I would discount or deep six that "moisture meter" -- one yr old wood, stacked covered indoors, is NOT seasoned if it is hardwood,   and is definitely what is causing the coaling.


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## Hogwildz (Jan 12, 2011)

ohio kat said:
			
		

> Hello out there and thank you for your replies!  A few of you suggested that we are burning unseasoned wood which is definitely not the case.  My husband and I personally cut, split, and stacked the hardwoods over a year ago. The wood is also covered and indoors.  For reassurance, I just had my husband test various pieces with our moisture meter just moments ago---all the pieces were under 15% ---even when we split and tested the center of each piece.
> 
> We are not new to burning wood. We used our last insert for 15 years (the insert itself was 30 years old)  but it was inefficient.  I understand there is a learning curve with our new EPA insert and I have been experimenting on a daily basis.   I normally get the fire going well on "high" and then turn it down to "med.".  The logs burn from front to rear, but the rear always has unburnt wood.   If I get the fire going well on "high" and turn it down to "low", the same occurs: it just takes a bit longer.  If I am patient and try to let the coals completely burn up, the house temperature drops and the coals still never burn up.
> 
> A few of you suggested that the knockout on the side of the insert may not be "knocked out".  I do not know if the installers knocked this out, but I will certainly ask my dealer tomorrow.  If the knock out plate is removed, will this increase my draft? Do you think it will help with the unburnt wood issue?



Try getting the stove a bit hotter before cutting the air back. I cut mine back all the way to low at around 500Â°, from there it will climb itself anywhere from 650 to 700 in a fairly short time.
The knock out is where your insert takes it's combustion air from. It won't affect draft, but will allow the stove to take air from where it is intended to take it from.


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## wkpoor (Jan 12, 2011)

madison said:
			
		

> ohio kat said:
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If stacked directly indoors I would agree. Wood will season much more rapidly outdoors through summer and fall season. Then it is good to bring in for winter if you can. Indoors without the wind and sun the dry down rate would be much slower and in summer with high humidity may almost come to a stop at a time when it should  or could be drying the most outdoors.


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## summit (Jan 12, 2011)

Empty the ash out a little more often. too much ash = lotsa coals. If you do it once a wk now, do it twice, sounds like you are runnin alot of wood, may be as simple as that. Make time to burn it down and empty it out twice a wk.


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## Dix (Jan 12, 2011)

Hi Kat, welcome to the forums !! Always nice to have another member of "Da Sistahood" show up here  ;-) *logs in another one, for Jags record keeping  ;-P 


A few thoughts.


A thermometer is a great help, it eliminates "High", "med", etc. I thought I was burning to hot, until I got  thermometer, now we have 3 on 2 stoves  Not hot enough, as Hogs said, will cause this issue.


Have you cleaned this stove? How is your boost baffle ( the metal bar with the holes in it) that rests inserted into the unit? If your boost baffle is in wrong, you're going to have problemo's. Ask me how I know  :red:


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## grrzoot (Jan 12, 2011)

also have you gone outside and used a binoculars to look at your chimney cap? if the mesh screen is building up it will reduce your draft, my second thought, the first is too wet of wood, stacked indoors is great, if you use large blowers to circulate air around the wood, otherwise the water percent will definately be greater than 15%*. Also make sure it is a wood moisture meter and not one for drywall, in the drywall meters my experience is that the prongs do not get into the core "moisture holding areas of the wood.

*edit- greater than 15% after only one year inside without alot of moving air. Its the wind that dries the wood out, not the ambient temperature/humidity


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## kolyur (Jan 12, 2011)

My setup is almost exactly identical to yours. PE Super Insert with 6" insulated flex liner in masonry chimney, approximately same length.

I know you are confident in your wood, but let me tell you that I have burned all types in mine, and your symptoms are exactly what I experience with unseasoned wood. I've been burning with this stove for two winters now; I don't have much woodburning experience prior to this. My first loads of wood (purchased) were great--started quick, burned hot, and the draft was incredible. But I got shafted on the latest load because some of it is quite green. I've found that unless the stove is super hot to begin with--and I mean 7th circle of Hell hot--the green wood just smolders and I end up with a cold pile of partially-burned wood and ash.


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## kat insert--hearth forum (Jan 12, 2011)

I sincerely thank you all for your replies.    

As I stated previously, we actually do have good, well-seasoned hardwood.   I and my husband cut, split, and stacked the wood over a year ago.   The wood was brought into shelter after one year plus in the elements.  We understand "seasoning wood".  ( Please only respond if you have some OTHER SUGGESTION than "we have improperly seasoned wood.")

I still pose my original question:  "WHY DO WE HAVE UNSPENT WOOD AFTER HOURS OF BURNING?"  The ONE AND ONLY AIR INTAKE that I can actually control is NOT "GETTING IT"; the wood fuel burns furiously initially upon light up and into burn time , but looses heat rapidly if I actually wait for the coals to burn completely to ash after hours of burning.   As I have said previously, I have experimented with "high" and "low" settings and ALWAYS start with a hot initial or reload burn for at least 30 minutes.  Are there any other suggestions besides "unseasoned wood" or "leave the air intake at 70% after initial hot burn?"


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## Hogwildz (Jan 12, 2011)

Instead of taking the wet wood comments personally, and coming off with an attitude to those who are trying to help you. Why not reread the replies. There is much more advise than the two you seem to be stuck on.
What species of "hardwoods" are you burning?


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## madison (Jan 12, 2011)

ohio kat said:
			
		

> Please only respond if you have some OTHER SUGGESTION than "we have improperly seasoned wood."
> 
> Are there any other suggestions besides "unseasoned wood" or "leave the air intake at 70% after initial hot burn?"



Not really, but,  completely clean out stove, and check for obstructed air inlet. 

Then more importantly, move that wood you cut last yr outside onto some flat Ohio land in the sun , stack it off the ground on some structure to allow air circulation.  And then think about burning that wood next yr.


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## krex1010 (Jan 12, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, why do you cover the wood when it is already indoors?


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## jerseykat1 (Jan 12, 2011)

put a few pieces of wood near the stove for a week or 2 it should be very dry by then. Burn it and if you still have coaling problems with that dry wood then you know what your problem is. however i suspect it could be a draft issue. Make sure that your stove was installed with a non vented appliance connector, these type of connectors/pipes will weaken your draft, and cause you to loose a lot of heat up the chimney. 

rack all your hot coals level, close the door all the way, open your draft all the way (there should be coals in there only no wood) and watch the coals, it should be bright red toward the front with a small flame depending on the size of the coals and dim red in the back almost black, if not then you have an air flow/draft problem. if you see what i just described, you are either loading the stove too quickly, or your wood is really wet.


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## kat insert--hearth forum (Jan 12, 2011)

I certainly apologize if I come across with an "attitude", but I am frustrated that we spent so much money on a new insert which is not performing as expected.  I do not think I should have to clean out the ash/unburnt coals every morning in order to start another fire with the same results.  I have not totally discarded the unseasoned wood idea, but when we take various readings with our wood moisture meter and they all read below 15% (even when we split the wood and read the center of each piece), I tend to think it is not a fuel issue.  The wood "appears" to be burning nicely with no sizzling and no smoke from the chimney.  By the way, we burn a mix of Ash, Maple, Osage-Orange, Apple, and Oak.  The wood was cut, split, and stacked 5 inches off the ground in Aug. & Sept. of 2009 where it sat in the sun and open winds until Nov. 2010. We brought about a cord indoors and covered the remainder outdoors with a tarp to keep the snow and rains off it. 

I do appreciate your responses and will continue to investigate any possibility. Thank you.


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## jerseykat1 (Jan 12, 2011)

You will figure it out. Its a big misconception by a lot of people that wood stoves are simply (i was one of them) just toss the wood in every few hours and be done with it. While this is true for the most part, it does require some timing, and good placement of the wood. There is a learning curve, when you figure it out it will become fairly easy for you.

Check your air flow if your wood is at 15% that should not be your issue.


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## gasavage (Jan 12, 2011)

Here's another way to help with the coaling.  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/65795/
I've tried it in my T5 (same firebox as yours) & it works pretty good


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## madison (Jan 12, 2011)

Here are a couple of links regarding moisture meter accuracy, tips for use etc:  The first pdf is the best for the science buffs (Battenkiller -  you'll be digging the first link) .  Jump to pg 72 for the conclusions.  Note that temperature of the wood is rather important in using the both types of MM and especially the resistance type of moisture meters

http://www.vtt.fi/inf/pdf/publications/2000/P420.pdf

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Electric_Moisture_Meters.html

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/nreos/wood/wpn/methods_moisture.htm


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## Hogwildz (Jan 12, 2011)

Ohio Kat, I understand your frustration.
There are a few things you could try.
I have been experimenting with loading one layer of wood. Meaning large pieces set in next to each other, and not trying to stack anything on top to pack it full so to say. I have found in the past when I do fill her to the gills, that the wood on top burns down faster due to the secondaries cooking it from the top down. The ash from the top layer covers the bottom splits and seems to insulate the lower layer from completely burning down, leaving coals.
I have also been mixing the load more. I had more oak than anything in the past, and oak is a major coaling wood. You may want to try mixing some softer wood splits in with the hardwood splits. The soft woods leave less coal, but usually more ash.
I have some issue of the house temperature swings while waiting for the coals to burn down. I attribute this to a more colder than normal year this year. Anything above 20 and she does fine, but over night in the teens & single digits, it gets harder to maintain temps in the house. Mine will swing from 69 or 70 down t0 62 at times. I have become used to it this year and 62 does not feel as cold as it did early ion the season.
Your going from an old beast that accepted and took LOTS of air to aid in combustion and burn the load hot & fast, but also took much more wood to heat with, and now using a stove that needs much less air and burns much less wood, but that less air and slower burn comes with the cost of coals at times. Mainly in colder than normal temps.

At times that I have lots of coals left, I pull them all forward along the front even up onto the boost manifold, all the way across the front, as high as I can get it, then leave the air wide open, and it will hold 300+ degrees for a few hours until the coals are burnt down. I have also raked the coals into the center from front to back, and laid large splits on both sides & on top to form a tunnel to burn the coals down, mixed success with that though.
Best I have found is the pulling all forward along the front, or loading it up with pine to burn hot & fast, while burning the coals down at the same time. Pine leaves nothing for coals almost and not too bad on ash for me.
The Black Walnut I been burning leaves a very fine white ash, but lots of it. Having some insulating issues with it, but burning what I have.
Keep experimenting and you will find what works for you. Hard woods will create lots of coals & quick. Mix some soft stuff in with it to even it out.
Good luck.
Hogz


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## madison (Jan 12, 2011)

It is interesting - that is - the ash densities/properties of various wood species.  some of the oak i have been burning lately leaves really dense ash that is like powdered cement. and will really inhibit air flow under the burning wood.   locust was rather powdery. and  i really liked the lodgepole pine out west, i rarely had to clean out the stove with that pine.


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## krex1010 (Jan 12, 2011)

Maybe your wood is ok maybe it isn't, but I have a hard time believing that wood that is only one year old and stored covered would test at less than 15% moisture, maybe a few small pieces but not all of it.  Usually from what I have seen readings like that come from 3 year or older wood ( that is if we are talking about hardwoods).  That moisture meter may be suspect.


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## summit (Jan 12, 2011)

ohio kat said:
			
		

> I sincerely thank you all for your replies.
> 
> As I stated previously, we actually do have good, well-seasoned hardwood.   I and my husband cut, split, and stacked the wood over a year ago.   The wood was brought into shelter after one year plus in the elements.  We understand "seasoning wood".  ( Please only respond if you have some OTHER SUGGESTION than "we have improperly seasoned wood.")
> 
> I still pose my original question:  "WHY DO WE HAVE UNSPENT WOOD AFTER HOURS OF BURNING?"  The ONE AND ONLY AIR INTAKE that I can actually control is NOT "GETTING IT"; the wood fuel burns furiously initially upon light up and into burn time , but looses heat rapidly if I actually wait for the coals to burn completely to ash after hours of burning.   As I have said previously, I have experimented with "high" and "low" settings and ALWAYS start with a hot initial or reload burn for at least 30 minutes.  Are there any other suggestions besides "unseasoned wood" or "leave the air intake at 70% after initial hot burn?"



yes, I suggested emptying the ash more frequently to allow the coals to burn out.


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## karl (Jan 13, 2011)

Try turning your fan down.  I get coal problems from time to time in my Summit insert.  I think it has a lot to do with the dryness of the wood.  I also think that the blower is capable of cooling the stove off too much and effecting the over all burn.


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## kat insert--hearth forum (Jan 13, 2011)

summit said:
			
		

> ohio kat said:
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## kat insert--hearth forum (Jan 13, 2011)

I really like hearing from other P.E. owners/operators!  As far as cleaning out ashes/unspent coals, we must do it daily in order to start a new fire each day due to the unspent coal bed.  When you had your Summit installed, did they knock out some sort of "O/A Cover?"  After reading the manual for the fourth time, this step sounds "optional".  Please tell me more if you have incite with this detail.  Will this cause "more draft" up the chimney?


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## Dix (Jan 13, 2011)

Kat, you shouldn't have to clean your coal bed out every day. I clean up my ashes every 4-5 days, under duress 

That's the facts, Jack   ;-) 

I doubt your "OAK" is the issue.


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## nodtmf (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh hi,

If you are getting the air from the inside then knock-out the "knock-out" as the air intake is on the other side (or think of it as on the outside) of the insert cavity. 

I have the PE Summit. I am burning un-seasoned wood  according to a few  postings I read here. Yes I get coals, but after a new load the coal seems to go away and replace by coals from the new load. Our stove is running 24/7. Seems to take 5 days to fill up where I need to empty it.

I am burning Oak from a tree that fell in January 2010 and was cut  up and split and sat in the CA hot sun for the summer.

After I load I go full air until the temp gauge (mounted on the front above the door in the center) goes beyond the "Burn Zone" This temp gauge, Rudland, seems to read high when compared to an infrared thermometer. Still trying to understand why as I have tried two Rudlands and two different infrareds with same results...differing by 200F. Anyone else notice this?

I replaced a twenty year old Cat stove this year, I am 3 months into using the Summit. Seems to me you need to get it real hot after the load, get the dancing 2nd burn flames. During the day as the load burns down I incrementally open the air. At night I put in a big load at 11:00, turn it down at 11:30. In the morning around 6, I have a bed of coals, the stove fan cycles, as the coals can't keep the stove hot enough. I restart with some kindling.

-Glen


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## cottonwoodsteve (Jan 13, 2011)

Coals in the corners and back never burn down that well. No air for them and they just cool down. The cooler they get the less draft you get. The less draft you get the less the coals will be fed oxygen. My experience is coals will burn down well if you have a good fire on top of them. Coals by themselves just die out partially unburnt.
What I have done for ""experimental"purposes only";
Get some extra firebrick. Angle them in from the sides at about a 45 degree angle.  This will channel any coals and the burning wood to the center. This is assuming you have a lower front center air source. If you do this correctly you will see the wood turn to coals, then the coals always slide to the center right in front of the air source. Also this keeps the coals bunched up and hot. The extra bricks will cut out some wood space. But this space is in the lower corners where things don't burn well anyway. Put wood in gently so you don't crack the bricks leaning against the side wall.  Remember this is for experimental purposes only. Do not leave your stove while you are doing these experiments.


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## kolyur (Jan 13, 2011)

When I installed my Super insert, I did notice the OAK knockout on the left rear side--I did not remove it. My dealer told me that unless you have a super insulated/airtight house, there's no need to mess with that. And in my case he was right--my draft is excellent.


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## Sisu (Jan 13, 2011)

summit said:
			
		

> ohio kat said:
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Yes I think it is all about ash management.  When I am burning 24/7, I will remove the ashes first thing every morning.  I will start at the front of the stove, removing the dense ash that forms along the boost manifold.  Then, I will scoop along the bottom, from the front to back, and lift.  While lifting, I shake off the coals that are at the top of the shoveled ash.  Once that is done, the coals are raked to the front and new wood is added.  

I also have a Weber charcoal bbq.  Whenever I feel like some winter bbq, I shovel out some coals into the bbq.  Presto charcoal bbq ready in 10 seconds.  This also help to manage coal levels.


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## Rudyjr (Jan 13, 2011)

ohio kat said:
			
		

> I really like hearing from other P.E. owners/operators!  As far as cleaning out ashes/unspent coals, we must do it daily in order to start a new fire each day due to the unspent coal bed.  When you had your Summit installed, did they knock out some sort of "O/A Cover?"  After reading the manual for the fourth time, this step sounds "optional".  Please tell me more if you have incite with this detail.  Will this cause "more draft" up the chimney?



From the Summit manual :2) Room air supply: Remove the 4" knock-out plug from
the casing side prior to installation (Fig. #14). Install the
Insert as described in the "Installation" section. The
Insert will now draw its air from the room through the
front grill.

The only other choice is if you use outside air you do not remove this. This step is not "optional" if room air is used.


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