# Replaced the ignitor on my new Harman XXV - anyone else have one fail?



## adam (Feb 7, 2007)

With the first real cold snap in the area recently, we've been reallly enjoying our XXV purchased in the fall.

I just started into my second ton and had the ignitor fail on a weekend recently.  My Harman dealer offered to come out the next business day to inspect/fix it, but I was headed out on business for the week and didn't want to bother with the logistics of having my wife stay home from work to let in the repair crew, etc.

So, I exchanged the old ignitor for a shiny new one and installed it on my own.  Prior to this I'd only done routine cleanings of the stove.  The accessibility of the ignitor isn't that good.  It is in the front of the stove, but you need small hands and easy access to the back of the stove to swap the part.  ..Not exactly an accessible design for a part that according to my dealer " is a common part that fails "  The only cost was my RT to the dealer, a cold night, and some swearing while I wrestled the stove around on the hearth.

Just thought I'd share.  Has anyone else experienced ignitor failure with a relatively new XXV?  Otherwise the stove has been great, and we're heating a large first floor of a 3200 sq foot house with it.
Cheers,
-Adam


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## begreen (Feb 7, 2007)

Ignitor failure used to be common when they first came out. However, I wouldn't expect that with a modern stove. The Quad 1200i came with a spare igniter, but after 5 years it was still in the box. I gave it to the new owner when he bought the stove.


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## GVA (Feb 7, 2007)

I'm just wondering something here.  Do you shut your stove down often?
The only time the ignitor runs is when it's starting up (or has run out of pellets and trying to re-establish a fire)
With the temps we have had here (your about 20 miles north of me) that stove should never shut down...


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## adam (Feb 8, 2007)

Lately it's been running most of the time, so the ignitor isn't used that often.  The last night the original one was used was particularly cold, and the stove was running pretty hard (temp 5-6, feed 5).  I wonder if the sustained heat caused the part to fail.  Similar 'hot cycles' haven't affected the replacement part.

-Adam


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## stovemanken (Feb 13, 2007)

It appears to me that the insulation has changed from a smooth waxy looking cover to a thicker and uncoated insulation.  Failed igniters show fraying where the wires go into the ceramic element.  Check it out.

SMK


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## GVA (Feb 13, 2007)

Well a quick test for heater elements would be ExE/P= R
or 120 volt times 120 volts divided by 500 watts equals 28.8 ohms.
Well I will assume that the voltage is 120 volts.......  Harman dealers what is the wattage of the ignitors???????????
I would still check to see if that ignitor is to blame or not....


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## Kenny1 (Feb 13, 2007)

GVA said:
			
		

> Well a quick test for heater elements would be ExE/P= R
> or 120 volt times 120 volts divided by 500 watts equals 28.8 ohms.
> Well I will assume that the voltage is 120 volts.......  Harman dealers what is the wattage of the ignitors???????????
> I would still check to see if that ignitor is to blame or not....



A while back I took some measurements on my P61A.  I believe that the ignitor is drawing about 290.9W.


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## HarryBack (Feb 13, 2007)

stovemanken said:
			
		

> It appears to me that the insulation has changed from a smooth waxy looking cover to a thicker and uncoated insulation.  Failed igniters show fraying where the wires go into the ceramic element.  Check it out.
> 
> SMK



Prior to 2006, we didnt see many ignitor failures, but in late 2006 and 2007, weve seen a few more....nothing really epidemic, if thats what youre getting at. As SMK says, the few we've seen "go bad", are a bit frayed where the wires go into the element.....pretty easy replacement tho, especially in a freestanding stove, like the XXV. Im sorry to hear your dealer couldnt hook up with you and your shcedule, but thats the way it is sometimes. Actually, one of the hardest things to do in service is to coordinate schedules!


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 15, 2007)

Add another one to the list that have the ignitor fail.
I have an Accentra btw.

Yesterday while I was at work the stove shut off (for whatever reason) and could not restart.
We had a storm yesterday with some power outages in the middle of the mess.

Basically I got home to a freezing house, and the ash pan full of pellets with all the attempts the stove made to start a fire.

I quickly realized that it is the ignitor that went bad because during the sequence the burn pot was not even warm, it stayed cold.

I did look at the element, didnt really see anything wrong with it.
Now I have to wait till next week for the dealerto show up to repalce the part.


Now what a frigg pain it is the ignite those pellets. 
I spent a couple hours using different methods with no result, they need to be hot to burn.
I ended up soaking some pellets in gasoline and trow them in the burn pot to get it hot until the stove could take it over.

As a result I bought a bottle of starter gel today. 

I also changed the stove to manual ignition, so that way the stove wont let the fire die as long theres pellets.


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## GVA (Feb 15, 2007)

Hammerjoe.
In desperate situations like that a nice piezo igniting mapp gas torch will get those pellets going.....  Yeah propane works too!
Be careful with that starting gel I've had it flash off the vapors in the stove, it scared the s&*t out of me.

EDIT  gasoline? hh: be careful......


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## Andre B. (Feb 15, 2007)

GVA said:
			
		

> EDIT  gasoline? hh: be careful......



Ya, there are other things around the house that would be better, say petroleum jelly.


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 16, 2007)

I had no other combustible source around.

But what I did was to soak a bunch of pellets and put them in the burn pot and lit them and add more soaked pellets as the other ones started to burn to keep a steady temperature until I felt that it was hot enough for the pellets to close the door of the stove and turn it on.

I didnt throw gasoline into the stove... that would be insane.


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2007)

No vegetable oil?, motor oil? I don't care what the situation, I wouldn't use gasoline. Nope, I'd go cold first.


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 16, 2007)

Hmmm doesnt vegetable oil need to be hot to burn as well?

Anyway, why is it so wrong to use gasoline compared to the other options?


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2007)

Heavier oils don't vaporize quickly, gasoline does. The unburnt vapors are exceptionally combustible, aka explosive.


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## HarryBack (Feb 16, 2007)

sudden ignition with the door closed could blow the glass into the room, your face, etc. Propane torch, Mapp gas, all works ok. I use gel.


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## HarryBack (Feb 16, 2007)

Hammerjoe said:
			
		

> Add another one to the list that have the ignitor fail.
> I have an Accentra btw.
> 
> Yesterday while I was at work the stove shut off (for whatever reason) and could not restart.
> ...



yeah Joe, if you go through a few cycles and it doesnt light, the burn pot should be warm if the ignitor is working. If its warm and it doesnt light, the stoves dirty, most likely.


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 16, 2007)

What causes the ignitor to go bad?
My stove is not an year old yet and I've burnt so far maybe two tons of pellets.

I hope this wont become a trend and having to replace th eaprt every year...


As for the gasoline, all I did was to soak the pellets, put them in the burn pot and lit them up, and gradually add some more.
The door was open until there was a nice bed of ambers and only then I closed the door and let the stove take over.

The way I did I dont think there was any danger whatsoever, because the pellets were burning so no gases had time to accumulate in the chamber (the door was open anyway) and I stopped feeding soaked pellets when there was a bed of ambers and the fire was pretty much out (meaning no more fuel) and only then I closed the door.

I didnt like the idea of using gasoline, but I was frustrated with the all exercise at that point and I just wanted to get the fire going, because it was -20 outside and the house was cold.
Also to be honest I didnt think of using vegetable oil.

I bought some starter gel so I dont have to use gasoline anymore...


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## begreen (Feb 16, 2007)

An ignitor will fail if it is defective or poorly designed. A good ignitor will last for years.

Good to hear that you got the starter Joe. I'm not trying to beat up on you, but I wouldn't want encourage anyone else to try using gasoline to start a fire either.

This is a little extreme, but it will give you a good idea of the explosive power of gasoline. I cringe everytime I see this video.

http://www.hallpass.com/media/gasolineexplosion.html


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 16, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> An ignitor will fail if it is defective or poorly designed. A good ignitor will last for years.



That raises the question:

How good are harman ignitor, especially the ones for the Accentra?


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 18, 2007)

Well the stove run out of pellets today.

I switched the ignition switch to auto and started the stove so it could fill the burn pot with pellets.
I also scrapped the burn pot again since last thrusday.
The burn pot was starting to feel cold.

I decided to let the stove complete its cycle until it would start blinking.

Well guess what? The ignitor works becuase the fire started.

Interesting, I didnt touch the ignitor element, I both times I scrapped the burn pot.

The only difference was the weahter.

Last thrusday we had a very nasty wind, and I could hear it in the stove.
Could it be because of that wind coming down the pipe would prevent the ignitor from working?
I mean that the burn pot was cold, it never warmed or anything.
Maybe the heat from these past couple days might have done something to the ignitor and now it works.
Either way I think I will have it replaced while it is under warranty.


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## GVA (Feb 18, 2007)

If you heard the wind in the stove pehaps the comb blower couldn't overcome this and close the vacuum switch.  Although the auger wouldn't feed either.
Did your stove push pellets out of the burnpot when it didn't light?
Check your gaskets and describe that venting.
hmmmmm.
The burnpot should be warm though........
Have you cleaned out under the burnpot yet?  give it a couple of taps on top of the burnpot too and this will free up more ash off the ignitor.


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## HarryBack (Feb 18, 2007)

Hammerjoe said:
			
		

> Well the stove run out of pellets today.
> 
> I switched the ignition switch to auto and started the stove so it could fill the burn pot with pellets.
> I also scrapped the burn pot again since last thrusday.
> ...



you state above that you switched the stove to auto so it would feed pellets for the ignition cycle, so i assume that prior to switching it, it was in manual mode....has to be either manual or auto. The stove wont ignite itself in manual, and you should keep it in auto mode if thats your aim. In auto, the stove will light itself.....in manual, it wont.


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## GVA (Feb 18, 2007)

Naw Harry he had it manual because of.....


			
				Hammerjoe said:
			
		

> I also changed the stove to manual ignition, so that way the stove wont let the fire die as long theres pellets.


But he ran out of pellets......


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 18, 2007)

Sorry for the confusion.

I changed the stove to manual mode to keep the fire going. I just miscalculated last night and obviously there wasnt enough and the stove shut down.



> If you heard the wind in the stove pehaps the comb blower couldn’t overcome this and close the vacuum switch.  Although the auger wouldn’t feed either.
> Did your stove push pellets out of the burnpot when it didn’t light?
> Check your gaskets and describe that venting.
> hmmmmm.
> ...


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## HarryBack (Feb 19, 2007)

GVA said:
			
		

> Naw Harry he had it manual because of.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks for clarifying that, GVA....missed that. 

Usually, the ignitor is good or bad, not usually in between, unless there's alot of ash in with the ignitor that would change the heating characteristics of such......and yea, I know, EVERYONE cleans their ignitors, right?!


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## Hammerjoe (Feb 19, 2007)

I did another test yesterday and the stove light up fine.

Now I am confused.
I will be talking to the dealer soon, but I dont know what to tell him.
Should I ask to have the part replaced?


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## adam (Dec 21, 2007)

Here's an igniter update after a full season of heating and a month into season 2 with our XXV.  After 6 weeks or so on the new igniter I installed last season, igniter #2 failed.  Our dealer was responsive and displatched a technician within a couple of days and replaced the offending part.  The stove ran flawlessly the rest of the season, and we burned 3.5 tons overall.

This week, 1 ton into season #2, and igniter #2 failed.  Work has been busy with year end rush, so I opted for another warranty service visit this week.  Within 8 hours of installing an upgraded igniter (I was advised the new ones are a larger resistance) the main curcuit board fuse blew.  After a phone call to the dealer and a trip to the hardware store, I installed a new fuse and attempted to light it.  After 5 seconds the new fuse blew.  Wondering if this was a fluke, I tried another fuse.  This time it blew immediately.  Our dealer thinks the new igniter is defective and causing the short.  We're expectiing igniter #4 later today.

We leave the stove on most of the time, using the igntion cycle 1x/day at most, 1-2x/week is the norm in the colder months.
I'm not sure what else to do, other than keep replacing the igniters as they fail.  I keep the stove pretty clean and did a throrough between season cleaning a ton of pellets ago.  Our 2 year old home has a 'whole house' surge protector, and at our dealer's request we installed another surge protector at the outlet servicing the stove. 
There is a limit to warranty and user patience...Do we have a lemon stove, or just a string of bad luck?

-Adam

heatless in NH


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## Hammerjoe (Dec 21, 2007)

I am now on my third ignitor in a bit over two years now.
This one is working great, in less than five minutes it gets a fire going, even when the burnpot is full of ash.
I just hope this one will last longer.


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## eernest4 (Dec 21, 2007)

Yes , be green has a "thing" , an" issue" with any kind of combustable liquid, which i have run into before.  But I have to say, to be fair, that BE GREEN IS RIGHT. better safe than sorry.

 %-P 

Also, propaine tourches are handy items for starting pellets or wood stoves,even charcoal cookers not to mention soldering copper tubing & plumbing pipes. 

 Heck, I have even used a propaine tourch to burn off clinker scum from my fire pot, after removing it from the stove & bringing it outside. But a sharp wood chistle & a small stainless steel brush usually works better, as well as awesome spray cleaner and automotive engine degreasser. I always remove the fire pot from the stove to remove clinker scum.

THE LOW DOWN ON ELECTRIC IGNITORS:

Electric igniters use a 110 volt nicrome resistance wire encased in a high tempurature ceramic insulator that is prone to damage by physical shock or bending of the steel tube that surrounds the ceramic.

What happens is that the ceramic cracks & while the ignitor will still continue to function,  the crack widens until eventually the nicrome wire touches the outside steel tube making a short to ground. This causes vastly increased current flow which burns out the nicrome wire leaving you with a open circuit.

The life of your ignitor is the condition of the ceramic insulator inside the steel tube & the condition of the ceramic is weather the ignitor steel tube was ever bent, or dropped or hit or bumped into,
either before or after installation. Subjected to any physical shock thqt might crack the ceramic.

The ceramic insulation also has a upper temperature limit ,over which it will not withstand more heat. This is determined by the grade of ceramic insulation and the length of "ON" 
time of the ignitor.

The length of on time is determined by the computer control board of the stove & I am sure that stove mfg know how long a "on" cycle they can have without premature breakdown of the
ceramic insulator inside the ignitor.

I used to repair electric stoves for a living, so it is not a new question for me.

4 burner rings, & a bake & broil element , so looking sideways at it, you might say that 
an electric range has 6- 240 vac ignitors that it uses to cook with & a pellet stove has 1 - 120 vac burner ring that it uses for ignition.


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