# Coal Plant Retirements



## peakbagger (Jan 13, 2020)

U.S. coal-fired power plants closing fast despite Trump's pledge of support for industry
					

Power companies retired or converted roughly 15,100 megawatts (MW) of coal-fired electricity generation, enough to power about 15 million homes, according to the data, which included preliminary statistics from the Energy Information Administration and Reuters reporting.  The replacement of coal...




					www.yahoo.com
				




Looks like companies are shutting down plants despite pollical attempts at keeping them open. 

NH still has two coal plants. They were owned by the states biggest utility which meant the utility effectively got paid to keep them in operation even if they were not competitive. The utility decided to become a strictly transmission and distribution company and sold all their power generation in the last two years. The "green" hydro power was sold to a couple of "green" firms while the coal plants were sold to a hedge fund that is required by the terms of the deal to run the plants for three years and keep the employees working at the plants employed under the same contracts they had under the utility (very generous pay, benefits and pensions). The utility made out well on this deal as the NH ratepayer had to pay off the significant paper losses the utility had on the books between what they claimed the plants were worth and what the market would pay.  Its expected that at the end of three years unless the hedge fund works out a deal with the regional grid operator to keep non natural gas fired generation in the regional generation mix that both plants will have a tough time running. The New England region is currently short of generation so they may just pull it off at least in the short term. No doubt in my mind that if the plants close the hedge funds owning the plants will disappear and the state will end up with a couple of hazardous waste sites to clean up. 

This sort of short and long term thinking is going on all over the country. In the short term coal may be "cheap" using existing assets but a change of the administration could make it quite expensive if carbon limits are put in place. Coal ash is also a potential for long term liability as Duke Energy has recently found out. Coal ash would be regulated as hazardous waste if it was not a byproduct of coal power plants. It is generated in large quantities and up until recently was moved around a plant with water making it a wet slurry that has be pumped to holding ponds to slowly dry out.  The resulting sludge is toxic and when either it or the leachate from the ponds get into the surroundings it is hard on the ecosystems down stream.  A new administration does not need to ban coal directly but changing the requirements for ash disposal could quickly drive the cost for coal fired power up. 

The only slight bit of optimism is the conversion of these coal plants to nuclear fueled plants using the new Small Modular Reactor (SMR) concepts.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_modular_reactor. The actual power boiler and fuel handling systems are useless but the turbines and cooling systems and balance of plant systems can be reused.  IMHO unless there is major shift in nuclear sentiment in the US, I don't see this happening in the US but possibly in the third world. The third world is where it can do the most good as many third world countries, like India, depend on coal for baseload.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 13, 2020)

Be apprised, as the consumer / end use, you will ALWAYS get to pay in the end.


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## peakbagger (Jan 13, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> Be apprised, as the consumer / end use, you will ALWAYS get to pay in the end.



The only choice is not to use the power to begin with and at some point if enough people do so the public utility commissions will shift stranded costs onto the connection fee.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 13, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> The only choice is not to use the power to begin with and at some point if enough people do so the public utility commissions will shift stranded costs onto the connection fee.




For most people, that is almost impossible to do or at least extremely difficult.


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## peakbagger (Jan 13, 2020)

I dont agree, many of us have reduced our energy usage by efficiency practices (anyone can do that as its the quickest payback)  some of us have installed solar (where local policies are amenable) and some others have gone electric vehicle where it make sense.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 13, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> I dont agree, many of us have reduced our energy usage by efficiency practices (anyone can do that as its the quickest payback)  some of us have installed solar (where local policies are amenable) and some others have gone electric vehicle where it make sense.


Whether you agree or not, still the way it plays for the majority of Americans.

My issue with electric vehicles and solar is, a lot of the elements used to make them come from China, not here.  We need to be more independent and not dependent on countries like China.  Solar only works if the sun shines and electric vehicles (at this point) have limited range and still get their power from central power plants, so, you may 'feel green' by plugging them in but in reality one has to look at where the juice originates from and again, you get to pay for it. 

At my age, I'm not concerned with alternative fuels except to say that running biomass lowers my heat cost and being frugal, I like that.


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## peakbagger (Jan 13, 2020)

Probably a good discussion for the inglenook.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 13, 2020)

Maybe, but I'm not going to initiate it because it don't have much discussion value for me.  besides, I need to walk the dog and fill the stove with corn.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2020)

Happening in our area too. A portion of WA state energy comes from these plants. 








						Montana coal power plant closing two units built in 1970s
					

One of the largest coal-fired power plants in the western U.S. was set to close two of its four units this weekend as the Montana facility edges toward a total shutdown.




					www.seattletimes.com


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## peakbagger (Jan 13, 2020)

BTW as an engineer I am somewhat sad to see them go as technically they are very interesting. Up close and personal a modern coal power plant has been squeezed for every bit of efficiency they can get. Some of the newest coal boilers generate ultrasupercritical steam using metalurgys that didn't exist commercially until recently. The scale is huge and the number of moving parts is amazing.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2020)

But then as you note,  there is the ash and slag.








						Groundwater contamination high near Wyoming coal ash ponds
					

CASPER, Wyo. (AP) — PacifiCorp is proposing corrective measures at two of its coal-fired power plants in southwest Wyoming after tests showed excessive groundwater contamination from coal ash...




					apnews.com
				




We humans are pretty good at coming up with ideas to cope with planetary variables, but we are poor at dealing with waste. That's one place nature has us beat, hands down. Some of the WTE plants are getting there, but we need to do much better in this area in general.


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## WinterinWI (Jan 13, 2020)

begreen said:


> But then as you note, there is the ash and slag.



Wood stoves generate ash and clinkers, they should probably be phased out as well.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2020)

WinterinWI said:


> Wood stoves generate ash and clinkers, they should probably be phased out as well.


One major difference, wood ash is not laced with heavy metals. But you knew that already.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 13, 2020)

begreen said:


> One major difference, wood ash is not laced with heavy metals. But you knew that already.




My ash from the corn burner goes in the garden.  Need to add a bit of hydrated lime in the spring however.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> My ash from the corn burner goes in the garden.  Need to add a bit of hydrated lime in the spring however.


Yes, wouldn't do that with coal ash. I'm surprised at the need for lime. Wood ash is basic and has a similar effect.


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## WinterinWI (Jan 13, 2020)

begreen said:


> One major difference, wood ash is not laced with heavy metals. But you knew that already.



Interesting comment. I'm not an expert on the topic, so I'm not sure why you'd think I know that already.

From Purdue University on wood stove ash:

"Trace amounts of heavy metals such as lead, cadmium, nickel and chromium also may be present."


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2020)

Operative words - trace and maybe. In our area this could be because of a shutdown smelter that spewed arsenic and cadmium during its 50 yrs of operation. 
 While you are searching, look up the same for coal.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 13, 2020)

Like maybe it will rain tomorrow but will probably snow instead.


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## begreen (Jan 13, 2020)

Like maybe trace amounts will show up in wood that is downwind from industrial operations. Like downwind from a coal plant.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 14, 2020)

Coal will never really die since we need it to make cement, lime, and steel. It's unfortunate indeed. This Duke Energy issue could even become a precedent for the handling of coal ash nationwide. Last time I read the numbers they are estimating 17 billion dollars to clean up billions of tons of ash. At some point we will have to figure out a practical use for the fly ash.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 14, 2020)

Actually, fly as can be converted into Gypsum which is a component of cement.  I know the DTE coal fired plant east of here does that and ships it out via rail and Lakes boats.  Not so much with spent radioactive fuel rods from Fermi 2.  They have a huge containment yard on site loaded with casks.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 14, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> Actually, fly as can be converted into Gypsum which is a component of cement.  I know the DTE coal fired plant east of here does that and ships it out via rail and Lakes boats.  Not so much with spent radioactive fuel rods from Fermi 2.  They have a huge containment yard on site loaded with casks.


You can add *some* fly ash to hydraulic cement products. It is not a replacement, but it can make better cement products, as can wood ash. Adding the coal ash back into the lime based products the coal was used to make is not new. There is way more coal ash than products in which it can be used. Duke Energy would not be spending billions of dollars in cleanup if the ash were profitable.


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## SidecarFlip (Jan 14, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> You can add *some* fly ash to hydraulic cement products. It is not a replacement, but it can make better cement products, as can wood ash. Adding the coal ash back into the lime based products the coal was used to make is not new. There is way more coal ash than products in which it can be used. Duke Energy would not be spending billions of dollars in cleanup if the ash were profitable.




I'm not privy to all the aspects like you are,  Interestingly, the cement quarry that closed east of here (Holcim), used scrap tires  as supplemental fuel for it's cement kilns.  The burned so hot it melted the steel belts inside and consumed the rubber too,  Took them whole and roasted them, thousands a day.  Was the largest open pit limestone quarry in the US at one time.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 14, 2020)

SidecarFlip said:


> I'm not privy to all the aspects like you are,  Interestingly, the cement quarry that closed east of here (Holcim), used scrap tires  as supplemental fuel for it's cement kilns.  The burned so hot it melted the steel belts inside and consumed the rubber too,  Took them whole and roasted them, thousands a day.  Was the largest open pit limestone quarry in the US at one time.


Burning tires is horrible from an emissions point of view. You can also be privy to the details with Google.


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## begreen (Jan 14, 2020)

The handwriting is on the wall. Blackrock, the largest investment firm in the US announced today that it is pulling out of all coal power stocks.
_The New York firm is taking immediate action, exiting investments in coal used to generate power, and it will begin asking clients to disclose their climate-related risks._








						Climate is changing. Investing needs to, too, says BlackRock
					

NEW YORK (AP) — A changing climate means dramatic risks for the world — and for investments too, the chief of the world’s largest investment manager said Tuesday...




					apnews.com


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## begreen (Jan 14, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> Burning tires is horrible from an emissions point of view. You can also be privy to the details with Google.


It's not great, but neither is the alternative. The cement industry is the third-largest energy consumer in the country. Tires are used because they have 25% more energy than coal and the resulting ash has much less heavy metal content than coal. The alternative has been landfilling them which can have some very bad results. The tires (53 million a year!) are burned at a very high 1800º which ensures complete combustion.

I did a little research and found that a staggering 130 million tires a year are burned by various industries!




__





						Tire-Derived Fuel | Scrap Tires | US EPA
					





					archive.epa.gov


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## peakbagger (Jan 14, 2020)

Tires can be burnt clean as long as the right emissions equipment is installed downstream. Compared to burning trash its not that tough although the steel cords can gum up the works.  Tire Derived Fuel TDF is chipped tires, its permitted to be used in biomass plants and is lot easier to deal with.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 14, 2020)

begreen said:


> It's not great, but neither is the alternative. The cement industry is the third-largest energy consumer in the country. Tires are used because they have 25% more energy than coal and the resulting ash has much less heavy metal content than coal. The alternative has been landfilling them which can have some very bad results. The tires (53 million a year!) are burned at a very high 1800º which ensures complete combustion.
> 
> I did a little research and found that a staggering 130 million tires a year are burned by various industries!
> 
> ...


I stand corrected. Years ago I used to burn racing slicks with my friends but then I learned that burning tires isn't cool. I guess there is a safe way to do it.


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## semipro (Jan 23, 2020)

Former coal energy generation site conversion to pumped storage facility.  








						Proposed 2.2 GW storage project plans to use Navajo coal station power-lines
					

If the project receives regulatory approval, it will deliver power to Los Angeles, Las Vegas and Phoenix in 10-hour durations.




					www.utilitydive.com
				




*Dive Brief:*

A proposal to build a 2.2 GW pumped hydro storage facility in Arizona moved one step closer to reality last week, after the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) accepted its application for a preliminary permit.
The $3.6 billion project would be built at a U.S. Bureau of Reclamation reservoir on the Colorado River, and rely on transmission infrastructure that was part of the retired Navajo Generating Station coal facility. It would deliver power to Los Angeles, Las Vegas and Phoenix.
The acceptance is an "important early milestone," developer Daybreak Power said in a press release. If the project receives the required regulatory approvals, it could come online around 2030, aligning with ambitious renewables targets in Western states — "That is right, we believe, as the need for this sort of bulk storage is coming into full focus," Daybreak CEO Jim Day told Utility Dive.


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