# Propane Price



## Thomas Anderson (Nov 26, 2012)

We had been discussing propane prices somewhere on here at some point a few months ago, and I mentioned that I paid somewhere around $2.50/gal in April and that I would post when I refilled again.  I just paid $2/gal yesterday.  It cost me around $150 to top up my tank.  Apparently some people are paying way more than this?  It's a wonder that these companies don't just drive the extra distance to get the much higher price, introducing more competition, which will bring the price down.  I reckon there are some competition-limiting laws involved.

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), the average residential propane price was $2.41 per gallon (wholesale $0.95 per gallon) for the week ending November 19, 2012.   This compares to the average residential heating oil price of $3.98 per gallon (wholesale $3.21 per gallon).  Propane remains much cheaper (even with a much higher margin for fuel companies) than heating oil.  It's also much cheaper than gasoline or diesel for generators.


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## DAKSY (Nov 26, 2012)

We're between $3.50 & $4.00 per gallon. Round these parts, it stays about the same as a gallon of 87 Octane gas or a gallon of #3 Heating Oil...


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## yooperdave (Nov 26, 2012)

It's been a couple weeks since I saw the posted price of 1.18 per gallon, I think it was 2 weeks before Thanksgiving


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## FanMan (Nov 26, 2012)

I paid $2.39 last month.  Around here the price varies according to how much you use... $2.39 is the "heating price", it's considerably more if you use it only in small amounts for cooking or such.


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## JustWood (Nov 26, 2012)

Locked in at $1.69 in August. Haven't checked since.I'm sure it's higher now.


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## Thomas Anderson (Nov 26, 2012)

If suppliers in Bob's neck of the woods aren't paying some super-high tax rate or absurd compliance costs or something, they're making around 300% profit, minus other employee/truck/etc expenses.  I wonder why nobody is arbitraging that.


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## 49er (Nov 26, 2012)

We paid $3.93 last February and $3.03 in September and I thought that was a good deal.


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## Deron (Nov 27, 2012)

$1.89


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## nate379 (Nov 27, 2012)

Propane is only about 95000 btus per gal.  Fuel oil around 130000, gasoline 115000


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## ROVERT (Nov 27, 2012)

Yeah, I really don't understand how propane prices can be that high. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I imagine that resistance electric heat is cheaper than propane once propane gets up around $3. It makes heating oil seem like an outright bargain.


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## eclecticcottage (Nov 27, 2012)

I think we paid between 2.50 and 2.80 a gallon to fill our 100 pounders a few weeks back.  Haven't looked recently...


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## Thomas Anderson (Nov 27, 2012)

nate379 said:


> Propane is only about 95000 btus per gal. Fuel oil around 130000, gasoline 115000


 
Yeah, it's important to consider the price per BTU.  In my neck of the woods, propane wins hands down (unless you've got natural gas, which is around 1.8 cents / MBTU).  

$2 / 95 MBTU = 2.1 cents / MBTU propane.  
$3.5 / 115 MBTU =  3.0 cents / MBTU gasoline.
$4 / 130 MBTU = 3.1 cents / MBTU diesel/fuel oil.

If you're paying $3 for propane, it's roughly on par with fuel oil at $4.  At least on a per BTU basis as used in a furnace or water heater.  Propane may be considered more valuable still because it's more flexible -- e.g. it can also power a cook stove, fireplace, or clothes dryer.  Even a refrigerator.  It also can't spill.  And it runs generators more cleanly and reliably.  So it's probably worth it to be paying somewhat more for propane if you utilize anything other than a furnace or water heater.  Thankfully, in most places, propane is both better AND cheaper as well!

Also, at 0.29 kWh / MBTU, the average residential delivered price per kWh of 13 cents gives 3.8 cents / MBTU for grid electric, but maybe as low as 2.6 cents / MBTU if you live in one of the few places that costs as little as 9 cents / kWh.  However, electric heat is nearly 100% efficient, so may be significantly cheaper than an old oil or gas furnace.  And even better than 100% efficient if you have a heat pump.  That is, if you should happen to be on the grid, which my home is not.  And solar photovoltaic electricity is too valuable to be wasted on heating (although when my wind turbine is going strong, I sometimes run a small space heater).

The cheapest cost per BTU remains solar thermal (virtually free after any up-front equipment cost, which is cheap) or passive solar (totally free with the right home design), but is not consistently available on demand.  But with solar as my primary and propane as my secondary/backup (plus my wood stove), my costs are pretty well contained.

At my wife's business this year, we are using quartz infrared electric heaters and keeping the oil thermostat set way low.  So far, this has already paid for the two $99 units (occasional sales price at http://www.northerntool.com) through oil savings.  Everyone is very comfortable with the heat they produce.


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## Battenkiller (Nov 29, 2012)

In my area there are a couple co-ops that you can get real good prices from if you own your own tank.  They use a formula that is based on usage and a few other things to determine the price, but if you use enough, the cost is well under $2/gallon.  At that price, I'd burn propane over pellets.  Problem is the inefficient oil system I inherited when we got this place.

I just use propane for cooking, so I wait until it is almost empty, put the tank in the truck, and take it to the local filling station. Otherwise, it costs over $4/gallon delivered.


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## lukem (Nov 29, 2012)

$1.59 last week.


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## schlot (Nov 30, 2012)

Related to some cost comparison, here is something I found. With corn prices pushing $8, and higher propane prices his final conclusions aren't too valid, but it's an interesting read.

http://www.increa.com/homeheat/index.htm


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## velvetfoot (Nov 30, 2012)

DAKSY said:


> We're between $3.50 & $4.00 per gallon. Round these parts, it stays about the same as a gallon of 87 Octane gas or a gallon of #3 Heating Oil...


Are you sure about that?  NYSERDA has $2.87/gal for propane in Capital District and $4.06/gal for heating fuel.  This still make propane more expensive than oil on a mbtu basis:  29.27 for oil vs 31.46 for propane.  Maybe cheaper than oil when factoring in efficiencies and maintenance.


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## DAKSY (Nov 30, 2012)

velvetfoot said:


> Are you sure about that? NYSERDA has $2.87/gal for propane in Capital District and $4.06/gal for heating fuel. This still make propane more expensive than oil on a mbtu basis: 29.27 for oil vs 31.46 for propane. Maybe cheaper than oil when factoring in efficiencies and maintenance.


 
I could be off by a little. To be honest, since we started burning pellets full time I don't even look at the oil (DHW downstairs) & LP (DHW Upstairs & the two Hng units) delivery slips too often. I'm thinkin we should be about due for an LP fill & I think Main Care made a drop yesterday, but didn't leave a slip because their driver trashed our mailbox. If there's a slip there today, I'll call them when I get home, because this is the 2nd time they've hit the damn thing. First time a couple of deck screws took care of the damage. THIS time I had to dig a freekin hole...


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## velvetfoot (Nov 30, 2012)

I've never really lived on a travelled road before, and as little traffic as there is on my road, my mailbox got whacked a couple times.  I think the snow plow hit it once.  One time somebody tried to blow it up with a firecracker, but it didn't do much damage.  The post is leaning, so if it doesn't get wiped out this winter, I'll have to renew or replace it next year.

Sorry for the hijack.  This is a good reminder, since I haven't looked at my lp tank (for cooking) for quite a while.  Main comes by when I call them now since I put in the driveway gate-just as well, caused we paved it a few years ago and who needs big trucks turning around (I dread the big septic truck.)


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## yooperdave (Nov 30, 2012)

I just rode pst the one supplier (I had mentioned earlier in this tread) and the price per gallon of LP today is $1.13  Makes you think a bit more about heading out to the woodpile now, doesn't it??


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## velvetfoot (Nov 30, 2012)

I don't get it.  Our state energy office says that propane price tracks oil.  Maybe in NY anyway.


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## DAKSY (Nov 30, 2012)

I will DEFINITELY find out this weekend. I went out to check my gages & they're BOTH at less than 10%...So I called to let them know...We're on a budget plan & don't use the LP a lot. I guess maybe they weren't the bad guys who trashed our mailbox yesterday...But then again, the mailbox was smashed TOWARDS the house & that means somebody got it on the way in. Maybe they trashed it & bailed so I wouldn't know it was them...


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## Stegman (Nov 30, 2012)

After buying my own 120 gallon tank this summer, I paid $2.50 a gallon to fill it - more than $1 less per gallon than I had been paying previously when I leased a tank. That's the dirty little secret of the propane companies - lease a tank, get locked into high prices because they've got you by the nads. I learned that lesson from others on here. Otherwise I would have had no idea. Thanks gang!


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## DAKSY (Dec 5, 2012)

Finally. Got an email telling us that we had a drop last Saturday. Price: $2.429/gal...
Cheaper than I thought...My bad...


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## Retired Guy (Dec 6, 2012)

Had a delivery in early November, 15.5 gallons cost $72.95 including taxes and delivery. I removed an operating propane water heater and replaced it with electric because of the cost.


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## DAKSY (Dec 6, 2012)

Retired Guy said:


> Had a delivery in early November, 15.5 gallons cost $72.95 including taxes and delivery. I removed an operating propane water heater and replaced it with electric because of the cost.


 
I have one hot water tank that runs on electric & one on LP. The LP company doesn't know about the HW, so I get charged the price for heating. If I was only using it for hot water or cooking, the price would be higher. The problem with the electric is the freekin bacteria that seem to propagate in the tank once the H2O heats up. Everybody in my neighborhood has this issue from the well water. Once every two months, I have to shut it down, drain about a quart out of it & dump a pint of Hydrogen Peroxide into it. Kills the bacteria & we're good for another 2 months...Thinking about switching to an electric tankless (On-Demand) HW for that unit...


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## FanMan (Dec 6, 2012)

Why would electric grow bacteria but not gas?

Electric tankless heaters draw a _lot_ of power.  Why not gas tankless?  That's the direction I'm going when i need to replace the electric tank.


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## DAKSY (Dec 6, 2012)

FanMan said:


> Why would electric grow bacteria but not gas?
> 
> *Something to do with the anode rod. I've replaced a couple, but It's easier & Cheaper just to take the time to add peroxide. *
> 
> ...


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## ROVERT (Dec 6, 2012)

You might find the gas lines easier to run than the electric. You'll probably be looking at somewhere around 100 to 120 amps, ie. three 50A breakers or two 60A breakers. You very well might not even have enough service to run it.

I would go with gas if you need to go tankless.


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## DAKSY (Dec 6, 2012)

ROVERT said:


> You might find the gas lines easier to run than the electric. You'll probably be looking at somewhere around 100 to 120 amps, ie. three 50A breakers or two 60A breakers. You very well might not even have enough service to run it.
> 
> I would go with gas if you need to go tankless.


 
*Well, gee, seeing as the electric is there already, I'm finding your logic to be a bit faulty... *


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## ROVERT (Dec 6, 2012)

DAKSY said:


> *Well, gee, seeing as the electric is there already, I'm finding your logic to be a bit faulty... *


 
I didn't realize you already had a few runs of 8 or 6 wire going to your water heater. My bad.


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## Jags (Dec 7, 2012)

$1.45 today with a min of 200 gallons purchase.


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## SwineFlue (Dec 7, 2012)

Thomas Anderson said:


> According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA), the average residential propane price was $2.41 per gallon (wholesale $0.95 per gallon) for the week ending November 19, 2012.


 
Propane prices really depend on where you live. The EIA web site showed that while residential propane averaged $1.68  in the Midwest, it was $3.06 in the mid-Atlantic region that same week.


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## Retired Guy (Dec 7, 2012)

DAKSY said:


> I have one hot water tank that runs on electric & one on LP. The LP company doesn't know about the HW, so I get charged the price for heating. If I was only using it for hot water or cooking, the price would be higher. The problem with the electric is the freekin bacteria that seem to propagate in the tank once the H2O heats up. Everybody in my neighborhood has this issue from the well water. Once every two months, I have to shut it down, drain about a quart out of it & dump a pint of Hydrogen Peroxide into it. Kills the bacteria & we're good for another 2 months...Thinking about switching to an electric tankless (On-Demand) HW for that unit...


If you are on a well and have iron in the water, as we do, it could be iron bacteria that's causing your issue.

http://www.cleanwaterstore.com/tech...reen=USL&Code=shock-chlorinate-sanitize-wells
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/bulletin/bulletin22.pdf
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/bulletin/bulletin23.pdf

or the type of anode rod.

http://www.aricoplumbing.com/waterheater/waterheater-rotten-egg-smell.aspx


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## velvetfoot (Dec 7, 2012)

My water is just a little stinky at times.  The insides of a water pipe I took apart once was quite slimey.  Maybe I'll try to shock the well next summer.  Thanks.


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## DAKSY (Dec 7, 2012)

I shock mine every now & again, but the first coupla pots of coffee afterwards are almost CLEAR!


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## Retired Guy (Dec 7, 2012)

DAKSY said:


> I shock mine every now & again, but the first coupla pots of coffee afterwards are almost CLEAR!


 Did you see the reference to water too cold, <138, fosters growth.


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## Thomas Anderson (Jan 10, 2013)

If you do consider a propane on-demand hot water heater, I highly recommend the Takagi TK-Jr.  Only $1000 installed with chimney and outdoor air kit and remote.  It can handle a 5 gal/min flow, but since the thermostat can be set up to 180 , you can add a mixing valve to push much more than 5 gal/min to your fixtures at 120 .  Also, at 180, there's no worry about bacteria.  I use one of these for both domestic hot water and also hydronic heating.  It really sips the propane, even though the wonderful consistent heat encourages long showers.  Between this unit, cooking, and running a propane generator more often than usual, we're currently at around 30% of our 100 gal tank after filling up before Thanksgiving.  I'll probably fill it again at the end of this month and then the end of March, and then not again until next November.


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## DHill (Jan 25, 2013)

Thomas Anderson said:


> If you do consider a propane on-demand hot water heater, I highly recommend the Takagi TK-Jr. Only $1000 installed with chimney and outdoor air kit and remote. It can handle a 5 gal/min flow, but since the thermostat can be set up to 180 , you can add a mixing valve to push much more than 5 gal/min to your fixtures at 120 . Also, at 180, there's no worry about bacteria. I use one of these for both domestic hot water and also hydronic heating. It really sips the propane, even though the wonderful consistent heat encourages long showers. Between this unit, cooking, and running a propane generator more often than usual, we're currently at around 30% of our 100 gal tank after filling up before Thanksgiving. I'll probably fill it again at the end of this month and then the end of March, and then not again until next November.


 
Thomas

Not to stomp on the OP but would you mind describing how your TK-Jr is plumbed with DHW and hydronic heating? Do you heat your DHW with an indirect tank or ?


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## Thomas Anderson (Jan 25, 2013)

DHill said:


> Not to stomp on the OP but would you mind describing how your TK-Jr is plumbed with DHW and hydronic heating? Do you heat your DHW with an indirect tank or ?


 
The only tanks in my system are for solar thermal heat storage and the well pressure tank, but the system runs fine without the solar thermal component as it's not even hooked up yet.  Right now my TK-Jr handles all of my thermostat-controlled on-demand heating and DHW without any hot water storage.  The TK-Jr turns on at 0.5 gal/min rate of flow.  This flow is achieved via zone pumps to circulate hot water through the floors or by opening a faucet and allowing the well pressure tank to push it through.  Here's a photo of the plumbing...





You can see the PEX manifold at the center which supplies the faucets and to the left on the other wall is the heating manifold.  The black box with LEDs in the foreground is a custom-built programmable thermostat relay controller which turns on the individual zone pumps.  Beneath that, the closest pipe is the return from the hydronic heating zones.  Behind that, the white PEX  line is the replacement water input which passively fills the system from the well pressure tank when water is taken out at the faucets.  It connects to the supply side of the heating manifold.  Behind that is the DHW off-take which goes through a mixing valve (the orange knob) and up to the manifold.  And that's all of the critical components to making it work.  All of the PEX in the hydronic heating side is potable-rated and all metal components in the system are copper or brass.

There are a few other cool features in there too though.  Under the center manifold, the cold water supply is fed by either of two valves -- the "winter" side comes straight from the well pressure tank, so the cold well water goes straight to the faucets; the "summer" side comes from the hydronic heating return side, which causes cold well water to flow through all of the floors before exiting at the faucets.  This causes some of the heat contained in the thermal mass of the house to transfer to the water and get flushed out, keeping the house cooler during the summer.  The two red PEX lines taken off of the hot water supply side prior to the DHW off-take go to the kitchen where they supply the pot filler above the stove and the dishwasher at 165 degrees instead of 120 degrees.  And beside that there is a small 3-valve manifold connected to a pump (4 LEDs at bottom-right).  That is for recirculating water to each of the bathrooms to keep the tap at temperature.  The pump is controlled by motion sensors in each bathroom.  Whenever someone walks in a bathroom, the pump circulates hot water to the faucets, thus preventing the wasting of water while waiting for it to heat up.  The well pump is a far more expensive load than the circulator pump and the off-grid electricity far more valuable than wasting a little bit of propane (or solar hot water once that's hooked up) in order to circulate hot water for a few minutes when it's not actually called for.  It's also very convenient for the impatient... just turn on the shower and jump right in!


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## velvetfoot (Jan 25, 2013)

I gotta figure out what you just said...tomorrow.  

Not sure if I asked you before, but is it a deep well pump?  Some kind of soft start?  If mine ever burns out I'd like to replace it with something easier to start.  Thanks.


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## Thomas Anderson (Jan 25, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> I gotta figure out what you just said...tomorrow.
> 
> Not sure if I asked you before, but is it a deep well pump? Some kind of soft start? If mine ever burns out I'd like to replace it with something easier to start. Thanks.


 
It's nothing special.  The well is drilled to 500' to get sufficient refill rate, but the pump is only at 100'.  We haven't sucked air yet.  It's a typical 120V AC pump.  It consumes about 2kW on start and 1.2kW continuous.  My inverter is rated at 3.5kW continuous and 8kW surge.  The pressure tank (on the right edge of the photo above) is 100 gallons, so pump cycling is minimized.  I'd eventually like to install a 24V DC slow pump, but they're rather expensive.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 25, 2013)

That seems pretty low (as in good) to me.  I'm not off grid like you, and my 240 v.pump in a 450' well (don't know where the pump is), wouldn't start with a 5kw generator;  I had to go to a 7.5 kw model with big surge capacity and that barely turned it over.


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## DHill (Jan 25, 2013)

Wow that is a very impressive setup, thanks for sharing.


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