# Insurance Companies and wood stoves...



## egclassic

So recently I decided to switch insurance companies because Allstates rates kept climbing. I called a local insurance agency and met with an agent who found us a policy with more coverage for both home and auto for a couple hundred a year less.
Now, a month AFTER the new policies took effect, my agent calls and asks "Do you have a wood burning stove?" Really? Isn't this something you should ask before you write the policy? Besides, I gave him a copy of my allstate policy that showed I had a wood burning fireplace. Anyway, I say yes and he asks if it was professionally installed, and I say yes again. He says it "shouldn't" be a problem, but I will call you tomorrow. Well I hope not, it wasn't an issue for Allstate. I told him that Allstate did not raise my rates when I had it installed because I was already being charged for a wood burning fireplace. I told him that I thought wood burning inserts were safer than fireplaces anyway. He said it's the opposite. I am hoping he is confused by terminology, stove vs. insert. This could not turn out well for me, we'll see.


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## WoodpileOCD

Can't imagine why they would consider an open fireplace safer than an enclosed metal box with a stainless liner going straight to the sky.  Good luck.


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## Jean-Claude

My insurer, RBC Insurance, has some stupid rule that says I can't have more than 2 cords of wood on my property otherwise they consider me a full time wood burner and they don't insure full time heating with wood. They made it very clear that my policy would be cancelled if they came to inspect my property and found more than the allowed quantity.

I tried arguing that extra wood would be drying for at least a year or two prior to being used and they wouldn't hear it. 2 cords, any more and look for a new insurer. Guess people in Toronto are spoiled with their natural gas fireplaces and have lost all common sense.


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## Hearth Mistress

If you run into trouble, call Erie Insurance, i'm pretty sure they write policies in OH, not just PA. They insure our cars, house, life, everything.  I can't say enough great things about them. When all my neighbors were fighting with their insurance company, a week after Sandy with still no utilities, water, nothing, my adjuster showed up with cases of water, cans of gas for the generator and dog treats for my dogs. They are awesome....period.


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## BrotherBart

Yeah been with Allstate since 1972. When we had this place built they said "Well we insured it with a fireplace. Insert no problem.". Sick of their premium increases and I paid the joint off a week ago. If nobody wants the business because I burn wood I go self insured. Not one claim in 41 years and if the joint burns down any one of them would try to get out of paying anyway.

Try State Farm. From observing on the forum over the years they seem kinda wood burner friendly. Just never admit heating full time with wood with any of them. Just like I never admit that the central heat broke in 1997.


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## BettyGF

I phoned my insurance agent to make a house insurance payment.  I said, "Priscilla, I don't know if I should tell you this or not, but I'm having a wood stove professionally installed at my house."  She answered, "No.  You should not tell me that.  You don't want your insurance going up."  I said, "Okay.  I won't tell you."  We changed the subject to talk about the winter storm and the flu epidemic.


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## Seanm

Out here Im told 3 cord is the max. So should I not age my soft woods below 20% and decrease my chances of build up, or burn wood that isnt well seasoned just so I heed the requirements of the insurance company? I feel your frustration. Im a firm believer that insurance companies are behind the times.


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## etiger2007

My insurance company ( Eaton Insurance) didnt bat an eye when I told them I installed an insert.  They simply said "we will note it on your policy" and they made the comment " No change in premium because you are paying for an open fireplace already" They did say if I installed a free standing wood burner my premium would go up 10%.  Now if I can just get them to insure the place with a pond Id be all set with them.


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## simple.serf

Hearth Mistress said:


> If you run into trouble, call Erie Insurance, i'm pretty sure they write policies in OH, not just PA. They insure our cars, house, life, everything. I can't say enough great things about them. When all my neighbors were fighting with their insurance company, a week after Sandy with still no utilities, water, nothing, my adjuster showed up with cases of water, cans of gas for the generator and dog treats for my dogs. They are awesome....period.


 
+1 on that! We have Erie Insurance in NY (I actually work in Erie 3 days a week), and they have always been great. The only request they had was that my stove was installed by a dealer. Their commercial side is pretty good too.

And they insure my house with a 1 acre pond in the front yard.


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## Motor7

Farm Bureau here does not have a problem with burning wood. Their rates used to be very competitive until we go pummeled with hail a year ago...millions paid out in claims for vehicles and roofs so oddly enough they raised their rates.


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## duramax1

Our State Farm policy requires a professional install and the local agent will need to stop by and take photos to submit to the home office.  They quoted an extra $20 per month in premium to cover the installed wood stove....


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## firefighterjake

Travelers . . . no change in premium . . . they did request the stove be professionally installed and inspected by the Fire Chief or Fire Inspector.


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## bag of hammers

firefighterjake said:


> ...they did request the stove be professionally installed and inspected by the Fire Chief or Fire Inspector.


 
I get the fact that the insurance companies want some reasonable evidence that an install isn't a hack.  But it's a double edged sword sometimes.  When I installed my own unit way back, in my original cabin my insurance company asked for photos of the install and proof of CSA or Warnock / Hersey (I think it was called back then) approval, which I provided - top to bottom photo's with a bit of description added.  That was it - I guess I got lucky in that regard.  Contrast with other items (not wood heat related) that I had "professionally installed" and the "pro's" in those cases were somewhere between incompetent and downright dangerous.  These same guys around a wood stove would likely be a disaster.  Reminds me of the sweep story here on the forum a few months ago where the "sweep" sent some midievel  contraption spinning down the chimney liner and tore it to pieces.

There are installers out there who no doubt are great.  Probably some close to putting the same kind of care and attention into my projects that I would.  But that's not always so.  The electrical inspector who signed off my permits said my work was meticulous, some of the best he's seen.  I'm not an electrician.  I've seen some pro work that just passes code, and has "working on the clock" written all over it. 

I imagine there are many installs I probably wouldn't tackle on my own (I have a simple straight-up system).  But IMHO let the insurance company send their guy in to inspect (even if it's on my dime) and call it a day, regardless of who did the install.  If it's over my head, I hire out.  Either way, if it's crap the inspector will call it.   Guess it's not that simple though.  Sorry for a bit of a rant...


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## Dakotas Dad

WoodpileOCD said:


> Can't imagine why they would consider an open fireplace safer than an enclosed metal box with a stainless liner going straight to the sky. Good luck.


 
Because a fireplace doesn't get as hot, and is usually burned rarely, for ambiance. (in fact we have several friends, in newer construction homes with fireplaces who have NEVER had a fire in them) We actually used our fireplace quite a bit, and part of the reason we did the wood stove was so we got more than just ambiance out of the wood.

Whole 'nuther deal when you are burning 24/7 with a device that gets a lot hotter. Also.. it doesn't take much reading right here to see some VERY scary installs.. Many people can do a great DIY.. some shouldn't scoop their own ice cream.

My wife is in the "industry", and in fact used to be an independent agent.. Insurance companies study it 8 ways from Sunday to come up with their "whys".. That said, we are with "Cincinnati Insurance" and they have been great. Our premium did go up $25 a year.


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## joecool85

We have MetLife and they are great.  Our rates went up $10/month and they needed some pictures of the install.  They sent a guy out for that.  I also had our fire chief check it out too, but that was just for my own sanity.


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## chvymn99

My insurance went up $52 dollars for the addition of the wood burning stove.  I had to fill out a form and take pictures (as it sits, through the ceiling, through the roof, and the exit through the roof).


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## egclassic

BettyGF said:


> I phoned my insurance agent to make a house insurance payment. I said, "Priscilla, I don't know if I should tell you this or not, but I'm having a wood stove professionally installed at my house." She answered, "No. You should not tell me that. You don't want your insurance going up." I said, "Okay. I won't tell you." We changed the subject to talk about the winter storm and the flu epidemic.


 Yeah but, IF, you have a fire and it was somehow caused by, or assumed to be caused by, the wood stove I wouldn't think they'd cover anything.


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## egclassic

Dakotas Dad said:


> Because a fireplace doesn't get as hot, and is usually burned rarely, for ambiance. (in fact we have several friends, in newer construction homes with fireplaces who have NEVER had a fire in them) We actually used our fireplace quite a bit, and part of the reason we did the wood stove was so we got more than just ambiance out of the wood.
> 
> Whole 'nuther deal when you are burning 24/7 with a device that gets a lot hotter. Also.. it doesn't take much reading right here to see some VERY scary installs.. Many people can do a great DIY.. some shouldn't scoop their own ice cream.
> 
> My wife is in the "industry", and in fact used to be an independent agent.. Insurance companies study it 8 ways from Sunday to come up with their "whys".. That said, we are with "Cincinnati Insurance" and they have been great. Our premium did go up $25 a year.


But most fireplaces are operated with just a screen blocking sparks from flying out instead of a positively sealed door.
I could handle a $25 a year increase, but someone else mentioned $20 a month, that's $240 a year! They should pro-rate it also, 'cause I only use my stove 6 out of 12 months!


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## colin.p

Jean-Claude said:


> My insurer, RBC Insurance, has some stupid rule that says I can't have more than 2 cords of wood on my property otherwise they consider me a full time wood burner and they don't insure full time heating with wood. They made it very clear that my policy would be cancelled if they came to inspect my property and found more than the allowed quantity.
> 
> I tried arguing that extra wood would be drying for at least a year or two prior to being used and they wouldn't hear it. 2 cords, any more and look for a new insurer. Guess people in Toronto are spoiled with their natural gas fireplaces and have lost all common sense.


 
As much as I detest insurance companies, I HATE RBC even more. That's why when my mortgage came due last year, I went with another bank. However, insurance companies don't like wood or oil heating, pretty soon we will all be living in igloos.


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## joecool85

egclassic said:


> But most fireplaces are operated with just a screen blocking sparks from flying out instead of a positively sealed door.
> I could handle a $25 a year increase, but someone else mentioned $20 a month, that's $240 a year! They should pro-rate it also, 'cause I only use my stove 6 out of 12 months!


 
I didn't see $20/month, but I had said mine went up $10/month.  I got to thinking about it and I don't think that's right, I think it went up $5/month - I'd have to check to be sure.


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## egclassic

Called agent today and asked him if I need to look for another insurance company. He said no and that he just needs to take some pics and fill out a questionnaire, and all should be fine. Call me skeptical, but I have a feeling they won't raise my premium this year since it is towards the end of the season, but wait till my renewal next year!


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## gyrfalcon

Seanm said:


> Out here Im told 3 cord is the max. So should I not age my soft woods below 20% and decrease my chances of build up, or burn wood that isnt well seasoned just so I heed the requirements of the insurance company? I feel your frustration. Im a firm believer that insurance companies are behind the times.


This stuff is just nuts!   I'm in Vermont, where half the state heats with wood, and maybe two thirds in my rural area.  When I bought the house and went to apply for home insurance, they asked me if I had a woodstove-- period.  Nothing about full-time heating, what kind of stove, who installed it, and for sure nothing about how much wood I keep outside.  I assume there's some kind of extra hit on the premium, but the question was so minimal and offhand, I doubt it's much. (Of course, they do the same with security. Not looking at me, "Does your door have a deadbolt?"  "Yes, ma'am," and on to the next question.  Of couirse, it's perfectly useless out in the mjiddle of nowhere in an old farmhouse and no neighbors to notice if somebody breaks down the door when I'm not there, so I don't bother to use it, and she didn't even ask me if I did.)

God bless living in the country where even the insurance companies have a sense of proportion!


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## gyrfalcon

simple.serf said:


> +1 on that! We have Erie Insurance in NY (I actually work in Erie 3 days a week), and they have always been great. The only request they had was that my stove was installed by a dealer. Their commercial side is pretty good too.
> 
> And they insure my house with a 1 acre pond in the front yard.


Funny that.  Where I am, that pond would get you a substantial discount on your insurance because there's no such thing as a fire hydrant here.  The (volunteer) fire department encourages people to have ponds, and even helps build them if you want to put one in.


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## gyrfalcon

bag of hammers said:


> I get the fact that the insurance companies want some reasonable evidence that an install isn't a hack. But it's a double edged sword sometimes. When I installed my own unit way back, in my original cabin my insurance company asked for photos of the install and proof of CSA or Warnock / Hersey (I think it was called back then) approval, which I provided - top to bottom photo's with a bit of description added. That was it - I guess I got lucky in that regard. Contrast with other items (not wood heat related) that I had "professionally installed" and the "pro's" in those cases were somewhere between incompetent and downright dangerous. These same guys around a wood stove would likely be a disaster. Reminds me of the sweep story here on the forum a few months ago where the "sweep" sent some midievel contraption spinning down the chimney liner and tore it to pieces.
> 
> There are installers out there who no doubt are great. Probably some close to putting the same kind of care and attention into my projects that I would. But that's not always so. The electrical inspector who signed off my permits said my work was meticulous, some of the best he's seen. I'm not an electrician. I've seen some pro work that just passes code, and has "working on the clock" written all over it.
> 
> I imagine there are many installs I probably wouldn't tackle on my own (I have a simple straight-up system). But IMHO let the insurance company send their guy in to inspect (even if it's on my dime) and call it a day, regardless of who did the install. If it's over my head, I hire out. Either way, if it's crap the inspector will call it. Guess it's not that simple though. Sorry for a bit of a rant...


It's a good rant.


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## Seanm

gyrfalcon said:


> This stuff is just nuts! I'm in Vermont, where half the state heats with wood, and maybe two thirds in my rural area. When I bought the house and went to apply for home insurance, they asked me if I had a woodstove-- period. Nothing about full-time heating, what kind of stove, who installed it, and for sure nothing about how much wood I keep outside. I assume there's some kind of extra hit on the premium, but the question was so minimal and offhand, I doubt it's much. (Of course, they do the same with security. Not looking at me, "Does your door have a deadbolt?" "Yes, ma'am," and on to the next question. Of couirse, it's perfectly useless out in the mjiddle of nowhere in an old farmhouse and no neighbors to notice if somebody breaks down the door when I'm not there, so I don't bother to use it, and she didn't even ask me if I did.)
> 
> God bless living in the country where even the insurance companies have a sense of proportion!


 It seems from this post that those of us north of the border have more issues with insurance for wood burning. Any Canadians having an easier go at it? Id like to hear from you as to who your provider is. Might shop around a bit.


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## egclassic

So, my agent shows up today with camera and questionairre in hand. He walks in, goes right past the insert and asks "where is the stove?". I point to his left and say right there. He then says "well thats an insert, there is no issue with an insert."  Just as I figured, he was cornfused with the terminology of stove vs. insert.
All is good, no increase!


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## Cross Cut Saw

I have State Farm and personally know my agent, I told him I was having a wood burning stove installed and I was wondering if he needed to know, he said as long as it was up to code and professionally installed I was good to go... 
No increase, no paperwork, no photos...


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## gyrfalcon

egclassic said:


> So, my agent shows up today with camera and questionairre in hand. He walks in, goes right past the insert and asks "where is the stove?". I point to his left and say right there. He then says "well thats an insert, there is no issue with an insert." Just as I figured, he was cornfused with the terminology of stove vs. insert.
> All is good, no increase!


Oh, good grief.  I'm happy for you, but really, what's dangerous about wood-burning is the chimney and ash disposal, not whether the heater is in a fireplace or freestanding.


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## Jean-Claude

Seanm said:


> It seems from this post that those of us north of the border have more issues with insurance for wood burning. Any Canadians having an easier go at it? Id like to hear from you as to who your provider is. Might shop around a bit.


 
I'd love to hear an RBC inspector when they spot a pond on a property. Probably need to fence it in to prevent wildlife from coming too close the water, or a net overhead to prevent birds from drowning, etc, etc.


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## Lumber-Jack

Seanm said:


> It seems from this post that those of us north of the border have more issues with insurance for wood burning. Any Canadians having an easier go at it? Id like to hear from you as to who your provider is. Might shop around a bit.


I pay an extra $25 a year on my insurance (Wawanesa) for having a free standing wood stove. Installed it myself, but had to have a WETT certified inspection ($200), and the insurance guy came and took pictures of the install. I guess the point of the pictures is if you every have a fire they will have photos to compare and make sure you haven't modified your hearth somehow to cause the fire. Makes me wonder if I ever decide to upgrade my stove, does that mean I have to have a new inspection?


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## Umaxman

All my insurance company wanted was a few pictures and a forum filled out showing the clearances from the walls and how the chimney was installed [who installed]
They seem to have more problem with my propane fire place ?


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## mudr

Umaxman said:


> All my insurance company wanted was a few pictures and *a forum filled out showing the clearances from the walls and how the chimney was installed* [who installed]
> They seem to have more problem with my propane fire place ?


 
This is what my guy needed, and we are through Preferred Mutual.  I'm moving in a few months, rent-to own situation involving my grandmas old house/my parents.  My wife and I are putting in a stove, I hope it goes just as easy...


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## Wade A.

I make this observation everytime this subject arises, but it bears repeating: Frozen pipes cause way, way more insurance losses than fires. Underwriters are very aware of that. Insurance companies look for indications you rely on wood heat to keep your pipes from freezing (like the size of your woodpile). A thermostat works whether you remember you have it, or not. You need to be present and able to load your stove to keep your house warm. Fail to do it on the wrong day and you've got a huge mess when your water pipes burst. Don't take it personally would be my advice.


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## ddahlgren

liberty Mutual no change in policy did not care who put it in did care that chimney and stove installed at recommended clearances and methods. It did not matter to them that I did it. Personally I don't want and installer playing carpenter or roofer on my house so hired a carpenter to install the adapter and flashing roof patches etc. as 15 years ago he shingled my roof and did a great job.


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## Wood Heat Stoves

I'm a "full time" wood burner in Northern California and haven't had any issues with my insurance company yet (State Farm). I'm more worried about them cancelling me because of being in a dense follage area for fire danger. Thinning out the forest and cutting up the downed trees from snow on my 2.5 acre property keeps be well supplied with fuel.


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## Sodbuster

Safeco.. no problem, they just want to know about it. Had to fill out a little questionnaire with stove dimensions, required clearances etc.


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## egclassic

Now that the wood stove issue has been put to rest, let me rant alittle about the other issue (off topic for those who care).
At the same time he told me about the stove, he mentioned that my driveway had alot of cracks and could cause a trip/fall.
Well, I have been planning on getting the driveway replaced at some point, next time I have an extra $10K-15K sitting around, and thats what I told him.
I finally told him that if he does not want to insure me, I would be glad to get on the phone and find someone else! Did I mention I hate insurance companies almost as much as Utility companies? Geez.


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## ddahlgren

Utility companies actually provide a product that can be consumed today, Insurance companies are a promise open to future debate should you file a claim.. Big difference in my mind,,


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## Dakotas Dad

well... you do know YOU are betting your house will burn down, right?

they are betting it won't..


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## lukem

$50 extra per year.  Couple pictures.  Easy.


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## Seanm

Lumber-Jack said:


> I pay an extra $25 a year on my insurance (Wawanesa) for having a free standing wood stove. Installed it myself, but had to have a WETT certified inspection ($200), and the insurance guy came and took pictures of the install. I guess the point of the pictures is if you every have a fire they will have photos to compare and make sure you haven't modified your hearth somehow to cause the fire. Makes me wonder if I ever decide to upgrade my stove, does that mean I have to have a new inspection?


 for me it was an increase of $90 which im ok with but wonder how they would take things if I went 75% or higher on heating from wood instead of natural gas which would make wood burning a primary. Not worth it if I cant get coverage. Ive spoken with other companies and they wouldnt talk with me if wood was to become my primary.  I will check wawanesa out. Thanks.


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## pen

Seanm said:


> for me it was an increase of $90 which im ok with but wonder how they would take things if I went 75% or higher on heating from wood instead of natural gas which would make wood burning a primary. Not worth it if I cant get coverage. Ive spoken with other companies and they wouldnt talk with me if wood was to become my primary. I will check wawanesa out. Thanks.


 
Wood becoming your primary would only happen if you didn't have another system capable of carrying the load.

They aren't checking to see how often you load wood into that thing are they?

If you go to a new stove, it should be as simple as letting them know and providing the information they require.

pen


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## Lumber-Jack

pen said:


> Wood becoming your primary would only happen if you didn't have another system capable of carrying the load.
> 
> They aren't checking to see how often you load wood into that thing are they?
> 
> If you go to a new stove, it should be as simple as letting them know and providing the information they require.
> 
> pen


Exactly.

We have a heat pump system installed in the house that is "classified" as the primary heating system, but if I burn a lot of wood it gets relegated to a backup system..

Psssst.... I burn a LOT of wood     but don't tell anyone


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## SteveKG

Funny, we have three wood stoves. After 25 yr. with Farmers, agent stopped by again [they seem to do this every five years or so] and looked over our place. No comment on the three stoves or the open fireplace. Actually, nice guy.

Several weeks later, we get a certified letter about our rate going up since we don't have a fire hydrant nearby. Everyone is well-water supplied here, no utility water or sewer. Plus, our golden retrievers are "large and potentially dangerous" dogs.

This was a year ago. Then, at the end of last year, we are notified our rate is doubling due to Colorado's wild fires last season. [Not near here, but we live in the mntns.]

That is not just the rate increasing, that is the annual rate doubling. Though they did offer us a few options to pay every few months rather than annually. [For a service fee added for the paperwork.] I dropped them and we are uninsured. I figured out we are working almost two months of the year to pay the house insurance. Or, we would be if we had kept the policy. I realize we will NEVER be able to get another policy, living up here. I did shop around some: various reasons they rejected us included the lack of "central heating" and the golden retrievers. Sometimes it was the wood stove thing. One place insisted we had a wood roof and I insisted it is standing seam steel of 18 ga. They said nope, it is wood. No idea where their heads are, but I gave up and we will be "self-insured," meaning we simply don't have insurance. I did take the new premium amount and stick it in a dedicated savings acct, as I will do each year. Won't cover the loss of the house, but I am not gonna put up with them any more.


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## ddahlgren

SteveKG said:


> Funny, we have three wood stoves. After 25 yr. with Farmers, agent stopped by again [they seem to do this every five years or so] and looked over our place. No comment on the three stoves or the open fireplace. Actually, nice guy.
> 
> Several weeks later, we get a certified letter about our rate going up since we don't have a fire hydrant nearby. Everyone is well-water supplied here, no utility water or sewer. Plus, our golden retrievers are "large and potentially dangerous" dogs.
> 
> This was a year ago. Then, at the end of last year, we are notified our rate is doubling due to Colorado's wild fires last season. [Not near here, but we live in the mntns.]
> 
> That is not just the rate increasing, that is the annual rate doubling. Though they did offer us a few options to pay every few months rather than annually. [For a service fee added for the paperwork.] I dropped them and we are uninsured. I figured out we are working almost two months of the year to pay the house insurance. Or, we would be if we had kept the policy. I realize we will NEVER be able to get another policy, living up here. I did shop around some: various reasons they rejected us included the lack of "central heating" and the golden retrievers. Sometimes it was the wood stove thing. One place insisted we had a wood roof and I insisted it is standing seam steel of 18 ga. They said nope, it is wood. No idea where their heads are, but I gave up and we will be "self-insured," meaning we simply don't have insurance. I did take the new premium amount and stick it in a dedicated savings acct, as I will do each year. Won't cover the loss of the house, but I am not gonna put up with them any more.


Will they at least sell you some liability insurance in case someone gets hurt on the property.


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## Lumber-Jack

SteveKG said:


> Funny, we have three wood stoves. After 25 yr. with Farmers, agent stopped by again [they seem to do this every five years or so] and looked over our place. No comment on the three stoves or the open fireplace. Actually, nice guy.
> 
> Several weeks later, we get a certified letter about our rate going up since we don't have a fire hydrant nearby. Everyone is well-water supplied here, no utility water or sewer. Plus, our golden retrievers are "large and potentially dangerous" dogs.
> 
> This was a year ago. Then, at the end of last year, we are notified our rate is doubling due to Colorado's wild fires last season. [Not near here, but we live in the mntns.]
> 
> That is not just the rate increasing, that is the annual rate doubling. Though they did offer us a few options to pay every few months rather than annually. [For a service fee added for the paperwork.] I dropped them and we are uninsured. I figured out we are working almost two months of the year to pay the house insurance. Or, we would be if we had kept the policy. I realize we will NEVER be able to get another policy, living up here. I did shop around some: various reasons they rejected us included the lack of "central heating" and the golden retrievers. Sometimes it was the wood stove thing. One place insisted we had a wood roof and I insisted it is standing seam steel of 18 ga. They said nope, it is wood. No idea where their heads are, but I gave up and we will be "self-insured," meaning we simply don't have insurance. I did take the new premium amount and stick it in a dedicated savings acct, as I will do each year. Won't cover the loss of the house, but I am not gonna put up with them any more.


I know several people who go the no home insurance route. It has some risks, but no more risk the millions of other people are living right now and millions more have in the past. There is the upside of being able to save or invest the money you would have spent on insurance, and frankly, the odds are it will pay off. What it comes down to is a game off odds, even for the insurance companies it's a game of odds. Things is, when they play they always make sure they play with a stacked deck.
Still having a mortgage on my house, I can't afford to play.


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## bag of hammers

SteveKG said:


> Won't cover the loss of the house, but I am not gonna put up with them any more


 
One one hand, a scary proposition, but on the other hand, sometimes you gotta say enough is enough. The thought of burning down the house is frightening, but is it more perception than real risk sometimes that drives us to just pay up without questioning anything? We're generally so risk averse that we don't even think about real risk. Everybody seems to be getting into the insurance game now (even box stores are selling policies now) because we're all scared sh$tless about all the bad things apparently going to happen to us.

It's a tough one.


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## SteveKG

I did think a long time about dropping the insurance. Anyone would be scared to lose his home. And everything in it. During that time, by coincidence, or perhaps serendipity, the governor gave a talk I heard some of on the radio. He was warning citizens that he'd been told by his advisors that home owners' rates in the state are causing his office to receive endless calls. His advice: get used to it, as the years to come show nothing he can see but annual increases far above inflation. He said this was verified by conversations with insurers.

Not a big surprise. But what does one do...pay another year and it goes up, pay the subsequent year and it goes up. It is already doubled for me this year. How many years til that is doubled again, does it become geometric? I do not advise anyone, necessarily, to do what we've done. But we've done it, and it occurs to me that, while anything can go wrong, it isn't as if I am gonna be an idiot with my stoves [or electrical or the Weber grill or a candle on the table] any more than I would've been an idiot WITH insurance. I mean, how many people think, oh, well, the stove is too close to that easy chair and the chair "could" ignite I guess, but, what the heck, we're insured so if the house burns down we are ok.


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## bag of hammers

On the other side of the coin, we've had one incident that on the surface seemed like a non issue, that rapidly escalated into a bit of an issue.  Our insurance adjuster stepped in (our homeowners policy covers these kinds of incidents) and handled everything - costs , as well as the stress, and the bullsh$t - basically shut all the drama down.  That was worth a lot to us.

I probably could purchase a small home with all the insurance premiums I've paid over the years, but I have to say the insurer I have now did step up when we needed them.  It's a challenge each year to come up with the $ to keep the house and vehicles insured.  At some point it may becomes a decision point - not sure what to do then.  Like I said, it's a tough one sometimes.


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## egclassic

ddahlgren said:


> Utility companies actually provide a product that can be consumed today, Insurance companies are a promise open to future debate should you file a claim.. Big difference in my mind,,


 Don't care, hate'em both the same!!


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## egclassic

Dakotas Dad said:


> well... you do know YOU are betting your house will burn down, right?
> 
> they are betting it won't..


 Yeah, I'm betting they come out better in the end though!


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## Uncle

I have Travelers also, the agent said as long as it was professionally installed we would not get an increase. A little OT, but when I went down to my local town hall to find out about permits they told me it was not nessesary. I hate having that "Am I going to regret this" feeling in the back of my head. When the times come that I finally do get my insert I am going to make 100% sure everything is signed off on.


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## tfdchief

egclassic said:


> So, my agent shows up today with camera and questionairre in hand. He walks in, goes right past the insert and asks "where is the stove?". I point to his left and say right there. He then says "well thats an insert, there is no issue with an insert." Just as I figured, he was cornfused with the terminology of stove vs. insert.
> All is good, no increase!


I have Pekin Insurance, and they have insured me with an insert for many years, no extra cost. They don't care about an insert. Two years ago, when I installed the second stove, free standing, in the kitchen, they had to come out and inspect it and charged me $45 more per year. The inspector took pictures. Didn't ask who installed it, and obviously knew NOTHING about wood stove installation or codes. He did not measure the clearances nor did he look to see what was required. I asked him if he wanted to look at the chimney in the attic and he said no. I don't really understand the point of them coming out, but I was fine with the $45 extra per year.....reasonable in my opinion. I did get a quote from State Farm who said the stove was no extra charge, but they could not beat the excellent rate I had with Pekin because of so many years without a claim. Bottom line is, IMO, shop around. Someone will insure you at a reasonable rate.

Edit:  One more thing.  Make sure they know everything.  If they don't and something happens, it will be much harder.  My experience over 34 years in the fire service is that the majority of insurance companies have gotten much better about fire damage claims over the years.  But they don't like surprises.


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## thetraindork

i'm in SW ohio myself, been with allstate since 16. paid cash for my house and the first thing i did was have a stove put in. the agent looked at it and said "nice stove" and that was it. i guess the world has too many idiots in it. most end up on youtube. they should give a woodstove IQ test before you can have a stove or an insert.


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## egclassic

thetraindork said:


> i'm in SW ohio myself, been with allstate since 16. paid cash for my house and the first thing i did was have a stove put in. the agent looked at it and said "nice stove" and that was it. i guess the world has too many idiots in it. most end up on youtube. they should give a woodstove IQ test before you can have a stove or an insert.


 I was with Allstate for 12 years, just got sick of their $100 a year premium increases when I have been claim free for all 12 years.
Allstate has no problems with inserts, like mine, but they don't like free standing stoves.


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## northwinds

Some companies don't like wood stoves.  Others don't like inserts.  I found out that it was difficult to find good rates when running both an insert and a wood stove.
Working with an independent agent, I ended up with IMT, an insurer from Iowa. Rates are good, and they stepped up to the plate when a tree fell on an outbuilding.


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## Brutus

Sodbuster said:


> Safeco.. no problem, they just want to know about it. Had to fill out a little questionnaire with stove dimensions, required clearances etc.



Same here.  I have Safeco.  Called before installing a freestanding woodstove in a house that had never had one - questionnaire, photos, and no change to premium.


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## Mr A

I asked my State Farm Insurance agent about installing a fireplace insert. No questions asked, she said it was fine. They also like my pitbull terrier and my rottweiler when I couldn't get insured for a reasonable rate anywhere else. A wood stove may be differtnt, but the insert in the existing masonry fireplace, no problem.


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## WES999

My insu co ( Quincy mutual) only wanted proof that the install was inspected. I did the install myself, cost $25
for a permit/inspection from the town. After the town BI signed off the permit, I sent a copy to the isnu co and they were happy, NO rate increase.


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## tekguy

just curious... why do some some companies require it to be dealer or professionally installed? around here wood stove installations reuiqre a permit and have to be inspected by the building inspector or they are considered illegal installs, if the building inspector signs off on the install I dont get the difference of why it matters who installed it

or do other areas of the country do not require wood stoves to be  permitted and inspected after the install?


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## colin.p

Lumber-Jack said:


> I know several people who go the no home insurance route. It has some risks, but no more risk the millions of other people are living right now and millions more have in the past. There is the upside of being able to save or invest the money you would have spent on insurance, and frankly, the odds are it will pay off. What it comes down to is a game off odds, even for the insurance companies it's a game of odds. Things is, when they play they always make sure they play with a stacked deck.
> Still having a mortgage on my house, I can't afford to play.


 
I also have a mortgage and that is the only reason for my having house insurance. If I was free and clear, then I doubt I would have insurance as it's usually a no-win situation. If I had a catastrophic event, they would likely find some reason to not pay out anyway (the house can only burn down the third Tuesday of every other month). That and the fact that all the stuff I bought over the years needs replacing now anyway.


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## Buckeye 2012

They require it to be dealer installed so they can subrogate against the installers insurance which usually has 1 million dollar plus limits per occurrence. I work in insurance see it all the time. Installers usually are insured by excess and surplus carrier at a very high rate cause they are the top of the food chain in a subrogation claim.


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## ddahlgren

Buckeye 2012 said:


> They require it to be dealer installed so they can subrogate against the installers insurance which usually has 1 million dollar plus limits per occurrence. I work in insurance see it all the time. Installers usually are insured by excess and surplus carrier at a very high rate cause they are the top of the food chain in a subrogation claim.


 Something to think about when you install your own stove.


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## Buckeye 2012

Anytime you have anyone do anything like install a stove you should get their certificate of insurance.  This would go for any work you have done on your property. I realize we all use non insured people sometime because it is a relative or friend but anytime they have a workers comp policy and general liability policy you should get the info. In many states you have 10 years in basic construction defects to collect on something like a stove install it is much longer.


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## bag of hammers

Buckeye 2012 said:


> They require it to be dealer installed so they can subrogate against the installers insurance which usually has 1 million dollar plus limits per occurrence. I work in insurance see it all the time. Installers usually are insured by excess and surplus carrier at a very high rate cause they are the top of the food chain in a subrogation claim.


 
That's a very interesting piece of information.  Now I'm no lawyer so I'm going to ask - if I understand it, doesn't the above scenario imply that the installer is somehow negligent or at fault (e.g. they screwed up and their bad install is the cause of a house fire)...?  

In my simple mind, if the insurance company asks for a pro install, you have to do it to satisfy the terms of their policy.  If they don't ask for it (you do inform them you have a stove, your policy lists wood heat,  you provide whatever details they do ask for, including pictures, clearances, specs, inspection, etc.) then you have satisfied the terms of their policy.  In other words, as long as you meet the specific requirements set out by your insurer, the install is done to spec, and you're not negligent in any way, I would think you'd be covered regardless. 

Unless you yourself were somehow responsible for the event / damages  (e.g. you threw a can of gasoline in the stove and blew your place up, etc.)...?   



ddahlgren said:


> Something to think about when you install your own stove.


I agree - it's always good to think about all these things, but I do believe a DIY install can be a quality job, and we shouldn't be afraid to do so, we just need to know the risks and implications and be sure the insurer is on board with the whole thing.


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## ddahlgren

bag of hammers said:


> That's a very interesting piece of information. Now I'm no lawyer so I'm going to ask - if I understand it, doesn't the above scenario imply that the installer is somehow negligent or at fault (e.g. they screwed up and their bad install is the cause of a house fire)...?
> 
> In my simple mind, if the insurance company asks for a pro install, you have to do it to satisfy the terms of their policy. If they don't ask for it (you do inform them you have a stove, your policy lists wood heat, you provide whatever details they do ask for, including pictures, clearances, specs, inspection, etc.) then you have satisfied the terms of their policy. In other words, as long as you meet the specific requirements set out by your insurer, the install is done to spec, and you're not negligent in any way, I would think you'd be covered regardless.
> 
> Unless you yourself were somehow responsible for the event / damages (e.g. you threw a can of gasoline in the stove and blew your place up, etc.)...?
> 
> 
> I agree - it's always good to think about all these things, but I do believe a DIY install can be a quality job, and we shouldn't be afraid to do so, we just need to know the risks and implications and be sure the insurer is on board with the whole thing.


 
With a DIY installation I think the smart thing is subrogate your risk by having a building official or fire marshall sign off for your protection and keep those papers in a safe place and do send a copy of them in a return recipt rquired letter to the insurance co , keep the recipt with your copies of the paperwork.


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## Buckeye 2012

ddahlgren said:


> With a DIY installation I think the smart thing is subrogate your risk by having a building official or fire marshall sign off for your protection and keep those papers in a safe place and do send a copy of them in a return recipt rquired letter to the insurance co , keep the recipt with your copies of the paperwork.


  SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY


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## CHeath

I represent Erie and they are good with it as long as its cleaned properly every year. They want a sweep do do it but if you know what you are doing, its ok.


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## colin.p

CHeath said:


> ...cleaned properly every year. They want a sweep do do it but if you know what you are doing, its ok.


 
I fully expect that, sooner or later, insurance companies will demand wood stoves/chimneys be inspected and cleaned by a licensed sweep yearly. They already demand oil furnaces be inspected and cleaned. The annoying thing is they keep changing the codes as well.


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## Swedishchef

I think I will open a Canadian insurance company that allows for people to heat primarily with wood....good grief. I may implement a basic intelligence level questionaire (Question 1- Do you burn old tires in your stove?).

A friend of mine was just refused insurance on his 3 year old house because he has a wood furnace as primary heat source.

Andrew


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## bgoodwithwood

I have travelers.  It is a requirement that I provide them with proof of inspection and cleaning by a certified sweep.....and they never forget to ask me for it.  It serves as a good reminder to have it done yearly.


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## ridemgis

egclassic said:


> I was with Allstate for 12 years, just got sick of their $100 a year premium increases when I have been claim free for all 12 years.
> Allstate has no problems with inserts, like mine, but they don't like free standing stoves.



Not necessarily true.  I told Allstate about our stove and they could not have been less interested.


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## Reckless

Man Gieco were the only company that would insure me when I told them I had a wood burning stove. They told me that it would not effect my coverage and that if it had been an open fireplace that they would have turned me down. I think its really all about who you get on the phone and the amount of time and experience they have with this stuff.


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## pen

Reckless said:


> Man Gieco were the only company that would insure me when I told them I had a wood burning stove. They told me that it would not effect my coverage and that if it had been an open fireplace that they would have turned me down. I think its really all about who you get on the phone and the amount of time and experience they have with this stuff.


 
Based upon the responses I've heard from different folks, I'm wondering if there can be differences with the same company depending on one's region.

pen


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## KB007

I called our SF agent and all they wanted was the wett cert for each of the woodstove and insert.  Charge me $40/yr each.  They did ask if I still have a working furnace, and apparently they see the furnace as primary heat and the stove and insert as secondary.  Glad they don't rate things based on hours of use


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## KodiakII

ddahlgren said:


> With a DIY installation I think the smart thing is subrogate your risk by having a building official or fire marshall sign off for your protection and keep those papers in a safe place and do send a copy of them in a return recipt rquired letter to the insurance co , keep the recipt with your copies of the paperwork.


 
Our fire department no longer does inspections.  I went to the municipality to inquire about a permit, yes one was required- $250.  Does that include an inspection?  No they just want your money.  Three guesses about my permit.  Informed the insurance co. about my install and provided them with pictures, informed them it would be wett inspected some time in the new year.  My rate went up $90 a year until the inspection then $30 after.  Had calls almost weekly in the new year to see if we had the wett done yet, kept telling them I would get it done when I could afford it.  Finally after a couple of months they called to make an appointment for their inspector (wett??) come look at it.  He came took pictures, measured, and went into the attic to check up there.  Next thing I know I get a letter in the mail saying my install was ok and my rate would be going up $30 a year.
My advice to anyone thinking on, or that has a stove in place- ALWAYS, ALWAYS inform your insurance company.  If your house burnt down for any other reason than the would stove, and they came and found it in the ashes, guess what- you would be on your own with no coverage!


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## Todd 2

Might give Grange a shot, I put everything with them (auto/home) for the discounts. easy to deal with and best price in my location. 1/2 price for same coverages vs State Farm. had to take the trampoline down though because the yard is not fenced in, the net to keep you on it dont count. they class it same as a swimming pool  oh well the savings out weigh it though, guess I will just half to get the kids something safer like a go-cart or dirt bike. lol


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## Lumber-Jack

Reckless said:


> Man Gieco were the only company that would insure me when I told them I had a wood burning stove. They told me that it would not effect my coverage and that if it had been an open fireplace that they would have turned me down. I think its really all about who you get on the phone and the amount of time and experience they have with this stuff.


I think you are right, it's much like a travel agent finding you best airline ticket. Usually there a few different options available, some are cheaper, some have certain restrictions, and not every airline will take you where you want to go. It's up to the insurance agent, or travel agent, to find the package that suits your particular needs the best way they can, and sometimes that requires a little work on their part.


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## tfdchief

pen said:


> Based upon the responses I've heard from different folks, I'm wondering if there can be differences with the same company depending on one's region.
> 
> pen


No question about it Pen. The last post:



KB007 said:


> I called our *SF agent and all they wanted was the wett cert for each of the woodstove and insert. Charge me $40/yr each.* They did ask if I still have a working furnace, and apparently they see the furnace as primary heat and the stove and insert as secondary. Glad they don't rate things based on hours of use


When I put in my new stove, my insurance company wanted an extra $45 a year and to send out an inspector. Which I thought was reasonaable. But, I checked with State Farm and they didn't want anything extra and no inspection, just to know I had it. They couldn't match the rates I had with my insurance company because of no claims and longevity. None the less, the above is much different than what the SF agent told me here.


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## jdp1152

First and second insert that we had put in, I let the insurance company know.  Both times were "Oh...thanks for letting us know.  We'll make a note of it in your file".  That was it.  No spikes in premium (though my premium went down for the second one because I was also reporting no more oil tank/combustion for primary heat).  I was pretty surprised at how little they cared about the inserts, though personally I think they're considerably safer than an open fireplace.  I get why insurance companies are concerned about free standers though....but even then, mind didn't care.  We had one in the basement when we bought and it never factored in.  Let em know it was gone just in case and again, did not care.


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## Brutus

jdp1152 said:


> First and second insert that we had put in, I let the insurance company know.  Both times were "Oh...thanks for letting us know.  We'll make a note of it in your file".  That was it.  No spikes in premium (though my premium went down for the second one because I was also reporting no more oil tank/combustion for primary heat).  I was pretty surprised at how little they cared about the inserts, though personally I think they're considerably safer than an open fireplace.  I get why insurance companies are concerned about free standers though....but even then, mind didn't care.  We had one in the basement when we bought and it never factored in.  Let em know it was gone just in case and again, did not care.


Why would a freestanding stove be more of a concern to insurance companies th an an insert?


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## jdp1152

Well, I don't know that they would be, but I could easily see it. Inserts are largely contained in the masonry whereas stoves have all surface area, flue included, exposed to the house (some, not all installs obviously).


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## tcassavaugh

etiger2007 said:


> My insurance company ( Eaton Insurance) didnt bat an eye when I told them I installed an insert. They simply said "we will note it on your policy" and they made the comment " No change in premium because you are paying for an open fireplace already" They did say if I installed a free standing wood burner my premium would go up 10%. Now if I can just get them to insure the place with a pond Id be all set with them.


you should tell them the local fire company can use the pond as a water source to fill their tankers or use with their pumps. i know some companies do look at the availability of water in the area.

cass


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## blucoondawg

I used to have Farmer's insurance, it used to be about 450 per year, since 2 or 3 years ago they went nuts and the wood stove isn't even the issue at hand, it is the location of the nearest staffed fire dept.  I am only 5 miles from our local volunteer fire dept and have 3 more within 10 miles in other towns but that is not good enough, the nearest city is 30 miles and that is the nearest full time staffed fire dept so they raised my premium to 950 per year.  It seems Farmer's insurance only wants to insure farmers who live in town, lol.


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## Isaac Carlson

I don't have insurance and probably never will. Nuff said, end of story. We heat with wood, cook with wood, heat water with wood, etc... I wouldn't have it any other way.
Propane or electric would cost us a fortune. If the house burns down, somebody set it on fire. I don't like bills, I hate loans, and taxes drive me up a tree. I won't pay a cent that I don't have to. Code is for people who don't know what they are doing IMO. I build everything as safe as I possibly can, which is WAY above code. I think I am done ranting now.

If I had an insurance company and they had a limit on wood storage, I would be in deep trouble.


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## jbeard

egclassic said:


> So recently I decided to switch insurance companies because Allstates rates kept climbing. I called a local insurance agency and met with an agent who found us a policy with more coverage for both home and auto for a couple hundred a year less.
> Now, a month AFTER the new policies took effect, my agent calls and asks "Do you have a wood burning stove?" Really? Isn't this something you should ask before you write the policy? Besides, I gave him a copy of my allstate policy that showed I had a wood burning fireplace. Anyway, I say yes and he asks if it was professionally installed, and I say yes again. He says it "shouldn't" be a problem, but I will call you tomorrow. Well I hope not, it wasn't an issue for Allstate. I told him that Allstate did not raise my rates when I had it installed because I was already being charged for a wood burning fireplace. I told him that I thought wood burning inserts were safer than fireplaces anyway. He said it's the opposite. I am hoping he is confused by terminology, stove vs. insert. This could not turn out well for me, we'll see.


I talked to Allstate today and they said that if you had a fire and your house has a wood stove, they will not cover it.  They will not insure a home with a wood stove.


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## BrotherBart

Interesting. Since on their website they give tips on using wood in your wood stove. 

http://blog.allstate.com/firewood-tips-buying-storing-using/


"We wish you a winter’s worth of warmth, and hope you follow best burn practices. Just remember to keep a well-maintained stove and chimney to maximize savings, safety and efficiency."

And their helpful holiday safety tips:

"For fireplaces and wood stoves, burn only seasoned hardwood. Keep persons, pets and flammable objects at least three feet away, open flues before using, and use screens to control embers."


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## SteveKG

ddahlgren said:


> Will they at least sell you some liability insurance in case someone gets hurt on the property.



Interesting you mention liability insurance. Last month, my wife and I met with a financial planner guy who said, when we told him we had no homeowner's insurance, that we would be very, very wise to get ourselves some liability coverage. He gave me a couple places to start asking, and I spend quite a bit of an afternoon online looking all over the place. The deal is, every single insurer I called or checked online requires you to have both auto and home insurance FIRST before they will write you a policy for liability. Their excuse: they require the primary insurance to cover the main [lawsuit, etc.] stuff and the "liability" policy then picks up if the primary policy is not large enough to cover the damage from whatever suit. I called the financial planner guy and my CPA friend and they both said, huh, didn't know that. I said to a couple insurers, what if I am renting a house or apartment and just want a liability policy. They said, nope, you'd have to have, first, a good renter's policy. Then, they MIGHT write me a liability. I said, what if I don't have a car and don't want one. They said, you will certainly be borrowing someone's car or etc. and you could have an accident, so you have to have some sort of good auto policy and blah blah. I said, what if I am very wealthy and not working but traveling the world with no house or cars to my name right now but could get sued for some of my wealth, they said well, sorry, no liability policy.

There have to be coverages available; I haven't yet found them. I have found no home owner's policy for a home in an area with no hydrants and no liability policy for homeowners who have no homeowners' insurance. So far, anyhow. I can only take so much looking before I give up for a while. But as to wood stoves, I have had a number of companies say wood stoves are ok. Those places were more worried about our golden retrievers than the wood stoves.


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## BrotherBart

SteveKG said:


> I have found no home owner's policy for a home in an area with no hydrants and no liability policy for homeowners who have no homeowners' insurance.



That's weird. There isn't a hydrant within nine miles of this house. But thousands of houses around and you can bet that most have homeowner's insurance.


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## fossil

C'mon folks...check the lower left corners of the posts.  This thread has been dredged up from nearly 18 months in the grave.


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## BrotherBart

Whoops. I bit.


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## fossil

Good topic...start a fresh thread with some new stuff.  Rick


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## NHcpa

SteveKG said:


> Interesting you mention liability insurance. Last month, my wife and I met with a financial planner guy who said, when we told him we had no homeowner's insurance, that we would be very, very wise to get ourselves some liability coverage. He gave me a couple places to start asking, and I spend quite a bit of an afternoon online looking all over the place. The deal is, every single insurer I called or checked online requires you to have both auto and home insurance FIRST before they will write you a policy for liability. Their excuse: they require the primary insurance to cover the main [lawsuit, etc.] stuff and the "liability" policy then picks up if the primary policy is not large enough to cover the damage from whatever suit. I called the financial planner guy and my CPA friend and they both said, huh, didn't know that. I said to a couple insurers, what if I am renting a house or apartment and just want a liability policy. They said, nope, you'd have to have, first, a good renter's policy. Then, they MIGHT write me a liability. I said, what if I don't have a car and don't want one. They said, you will certainly be borrowing someone's car or etc. and you could have an accident, so you have to have some sort of good auto policy and blah blah. I said, what if I am very wealthy and not working but traveling the world with no house or cars to my name right now but could get sued for some of my wealth, they said well, sorry, no liability policy.
> 
> There have to be coverages available; I haven't yet found them. I have found no home owner's policy for a home in an area with no hydrants and no liability policy for homeowners who have no homeowners' insurance. So far, anyhow. I can only take so much looking before I give up for a while. But as to wood stoves, I have had a number of companies say wood stoves are ok. Those places were more worried about our golden retrievers than the wood stoves.


I think you may be talking about an "umbrella policy".  This would be in addition to all your other insurance needs (ie homeowners, auto...). Many companies will not underwrite an umbrella (basically additional liability insurance) unless you have the rest as primaries.  Umbrellas are basically designed to give you extra cushion in case of a claim against you.  A good example is you now have a child driving and is now on your auto policy.  Typical coverages are min $100 or $250k on claims.  Should a claim be higher, your umbrella would kick in.   Many people with assets (and kids) will buy this policy addendum.


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## Grisu

fossil said:


> Good topic...start a fresh thread with some new stuff.  Rick



I don't quite follow that logic. Why open a new thread then? When people would write the same stuff again since they don't know what was in the old thread why would that be new? And it is not that this thread is that ancient with completely outdated info.


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## fossil

Grisu said:


> I don't quite follow that logic. Why open a new thread then? When people would write the same stuff again since they don't know what was in the old thread why would that be new? And it is not that this thread is that ancient with completely outdated info.



So, I figure you read through all 93 posts before this comment, then.


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## begreen

Closing the old door.


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## BrotherBart




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