# BEV Pickup Trucks



## boomfire (Oct 7, 2022)

BEV Pickup Truck, Who has one or in the market for one or plan on getting one?

I have made preorder/reservation (100$) for a few, not sure which one is going to come out first [fully refundable]

Tesla Cybertruck (Potentially mid 2023?) - they have huge backlog to fill, i am not even sure i would be able to get my hands on one for a few years.
Chevy Silverado EV (Summer 2024)
Canoo Pickup (2023?)


Rivian R1T [new reservations delivery at end of 2023] - i am on the fence with this one.
Not interested in F150 lightning after the price recent price hikes (twice in a matter of months),


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## GrumpyDad (Oct 7, 2022)

boomfire said:


> BEV Pickup Truck, Who has one or in the market for one or plan on getting one?
> 
> I have made preorder/reservation (100$) for a few, not sure which one is going to come out first [fully refundable]
> 
> ...


Id never buy a chevy.
The ford is likely worth the money
The Tesla is likely a nice vehicle but not as practical for the money.

A canoo and Rivian , I never heard of them so I would likely never buy one until I saw that many others were the guinee pigs.  

Im hoping to get a ford someday, but I want to watch them learn from their mistakes and pickup a gen 2.


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## boomfire (Oct 25, 2022)

I was lucky enough to reserve for GMC Sierra EV Denali. Reservations were full within 20 minutes of opening.
The 107k model is too rich for my blood, but Elevation or AT4 i would definitely consider.






						GMC Sierra EV Truck | Reservations
					

<p>Reserve your Sierra EV Denali Edition 1 with GM-estimated 400 miles of range on a full charge.</p>




					www.gmc.com
				








						Meet The First-Ever GMC Sierra EV: Electric Truck
					

<p>Introducing the new GMC Sierra EV truck built to reach unimaginable heights. Be one of the first to reserve the all-electric Sierra EV today.<br /> </p>




					www.gmc.com


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## Ashful (Oct 25, 2022)

I'm excited about more mainstream auto makers getting into the BEV game, esp. in the pickup sector.  But won't be plunking down $100k on any first-draft attempt guaranteed to have more than a few kinks, to be worked out in subsequent model years.  Glad I don't need a new pickup for a few years, so I can watch the early adopters help them fix these issues, before I'm shopping again.

Average new car pricing over the next few years, thanks almost entirely to PHEV's and BEV's, may be the only thing inflating faster than US college prices.


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## Dan Freeman (Oct 25, 2022)

100K+ ...  Did I read that correctly?!?!?
I paid less than that for my Chevy Malibu (2018) and my 2 GMC Sierra 2500 Cargo Vans (2018 & 2019) combined.
That kind of money for a vehicle staggers my mind.


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## EbS-P (Oct 25, 2022)

not enough competition now.  In 24 months genenal EV and EV  truck the landscape will look very different.  All the models with maybe the ford and canoe as exceptions are luxury trucks.  My question is are value oriented buyers more or less likely to overlook shortcomings when compared to to luxury buyers.    Another angle will Tesla’s sell you the moon up front and keep dangling the promise in front of you without delivering model be the norm?


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## GrumpyDad (Oct 25, 2022)

You can still buy a decent older smaller house in my area with insulation (yes many were built without), gas heat, newer HVAC, a small yard in a decent school district about an hour from the city for 100k.  It may need new cabinets, new flooring, landscaping updates but nothing major.  Good bones as they say.  

Paying 100k for a truck, or more as we are headed, seems extremely painful to me.  

Practically I need to get back into a truck, and either sell or be ok with garaging a sport sedan.  

I like the way RAMs look inside.  Ford interiors are terrible, even in their raptors Im embarrassed for their owners.   Long ago I tested thoroughly many trucks, and RAM was the least performer for me.  NOw, they seem to be flipping the script. I have a friend who owns a TRX and he LOVES it.  It's mean looking, rides nice, and crushes off road and the snow. 

RAM doesnt have an electric truck yet.
I would trust being a first gen owner of a Ford electric truck though. 

These are 1st world decisions for sure.


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## Ashful (Oct 25, 2022)

Dan Freeman said:


> 100K+ ...  Did I read that correctly?!?!?
> I paid less than that for my Chevy Malibu (2018) and my 2 GMC Sierra 2500 Cargo Vans (2018 & 2019) combined.
> That kind of money for a vehicle staggers my mind.


yep.  This is why my new 2020 is a gasser.  Tried to justify PHEV and BEV options, but at literally 1.7x cost for less… I just couldn’t.


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## tcassavaugh (Oct 25, 2022)

boomfire said:


> BEV Pickup Truck, Who has one or in the market for one or plan on getting one?
> 
> I have made preorder/reservation (100$) for a few, not sure which one is going to come out first [fully refundable]
> 
> ...


i don't think i could ever use an EV. i saw them run a Ford lightning to Alaska to Prudhoe Bay Alaska. Charging was a nightmare but they did it . They took a FORD 150 chase vehicle. Good reviews and tests on Fast Lane Trucks. they did a gerat overview on the Rivan https://www.youtube.com/c/TFLtruck. They compare all the EV Pick ups. Non bias too. Suggest it to anyone looking into buying them. Not for me though.


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## EbS-P (Oct 25, 2022)

GrumpyDad said:


> You can still buy a decent older smaller house in my area with insulation (yes many were built without), gas heat, newer HVAC, a small yard in a decent school district about an hour from the city for 100k.  It may need new cabinets, new flooring, landscaping updates but nothing major.  Good bones as they say.
> 
> Paying 100k for a truck, or more as we are headed, seems extremely painful to me.
> 
> ...


And top 25% of the first world to boot.   It does help realize how cheap the ICE units are/were being produced.


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## walhondingnashua (Nov 14, 2022)

I'm sure I will get plenty of factual responses to this statement but...
I just can't figure out why hybrids haven't taken off more.  Best of both worlds...


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## Ashful (Nov 14, 2022)

walhondingnashua said:


> I'm sure I will get plenty of factual responses to this statement but...
> I just can't figure out why hybrids haven't taken off more.  Best of both worlds...


One word:  cost.

Check Volvo for just one of a few examples.  In 2020, we could by the sport version of the ICE T6 wagon for something like $45k.  The PHEV version was around $78k.  

Putting most of the working bits of an EV plus and ICE into the same vehicle is not going to make for low cost.


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## begreen (Nov 14, 2022)

Volvo says that it won't take long for the cost of BEVs to drop below the cost of ICE vehicles. The CEO of Volvo is not one for overstatements. He knows and understands the technology better than many other auto CEOs.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2022)

walhondingnashua said:


> I'm sure I will get plenty of factual responses to this statement but...
> I just can't figure out why hybrids haven't taken off more.  Best of both worlds...


I am more surprised that no one else has taken the approach of the volt.   A small gas motor used to generate power and small batteries for reserve power when needed.  It's far less complicated that the other hybrid approaches on the market.


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## Shank (Nov 14, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am more surprised that no one else has taken the approach of the volt.   A small gas motor used to generate power and small batteries for reserve power when needed.  It's far less complicated that the other hybrid approaches on the market.


I've wanted to see the same with a small diesel.


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2022)

begreen said:


> Volvo says that it won't take long for the cost of BEVs to drop below the cost of ICE vehicles. The CEO of Volvo is not one for overstatements. He knows and understands the technology better than many other auto CEOs.


I agree I don't think it will take long at all.  Just look at the progress made in such a short timespan already


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## bholler (Nov 14, 2022)

Shank said:


> I've wanted to see the same with a small diesel.


Yeah they have been doing it with locomotives for a very long time and that works really well.  I still think total electric will eventually take over.  But that approach seems so much simpler than the others


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## begreen (Nov 14, 2022)

The Volt has a complex drivetrain and battery management system. I love it, and GM did a good job, but the system is not simple. VIA did adapt the drivetrain into a Chevy Silverado and a cargo van. They reviewed well, but were only available to lease fleets.


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## Shank (Nov 14, 2022)

bholler said:


> Yeah they have been doing it with locomotives for a very long time and that works really well.  I still think total electric will eventually take over.  But that approach seems so much simpler than the others


I’ve threatened to build one, but that would take a lot of funding reserved for other life tasks.


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## Ashful (Nov 14, 2022)

begreen said:


> Volvo says that it won't take long for the cost of BEVs to drop below the cost of ICE vehicles. The CEO of Volvo is not one for overstatements. He knows and understands the technology better than many other auto CEOs.


Agreed on BEV's.  No doubt they'll be cheaper at some point soon, they're simpler with fewer moving parts, the cost right now is likely driven by R&D costs combined with low volume.

But @walhondingnashua's question and my response were both about hybrids, and I expect they'll always be more expensive than similar BEV's.


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## begreen (Nov 14, 2022)

Yes, they will cost more, but for towing a hybrid system makes sense for pickups. The main issue with a BEV truck like the Ford Lightning is that the range plummets when towing.

This video by Sam Evans is an interesting overview of the developing EV market and GM's approach:
]


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## EbS-P (Nov 14, 2022)

bholler said:


> I am more surprised that no one else has taken the approach of the volt.   A small gas motor used to generate power and small batteries for reserve power when needed.  It's far less complicated that the other hybrid approaches on the market.


Toyotas hybrid is a marvel of engineering.  Google Weeber auto YouTube to see a really detailed tear down. Their planetary CVT is really what all CVTs should have been. No silly metal belts.


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## peakbagger (Nov 14, 2022)

I love my plug in hybrid Rav 4 Prime but its complexity is daunting. First car I am considering buying a extended warranty even though its Toyota.


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## EbS-P (Nov 14, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> I love my plug in hybrid Rav 4 Prime but its complexity is daunting. First car I am considering buying a extended warranty even though its Toyota.


If you haven’t watched the transmission tear down it’s worth your time.  Playing the warranty game mode loose but I’ve won on my van (3rd party lifetime, dealer is always happy to see me show up I’m much more likely to get work done and have the dealer do the work).


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## Ashful (Nov 14, 2022)

begreen said:


> Yes, they will cost more, but for towing a hybrid system makes sense for pickups. The main issue with a BEV truck like the Ford Lightning is that the range plummets when towing.
> 
> This video by Sam Evans is an interesting overview of the developing EV market and GM's approach:
> ]



Cool video, but I hope he mis-spoke at 2:50?  671 charge cycles and the battery life drops by 80%?  I hope not, people would be looking to ditch and trade way sooner than that.  I suspect he means it drops to 80%, not by 80%.


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## begreen (Nov 14, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Cool video, but I hope he mis-spoke at 2:50?  671 charge cycles and the battery life drops by 80%?  I hope not, people would be looking to ditch and trade way sooner than that.  I suspect he means it drops to 80%, not by 80%.


Yes. It drops to 80%. Note that those cycles are at full charge amperage which equals about 340 or more miles per cycle or around 228,000 miles or more during this 671 charge cycle span. At that point, an 80% remaining charge is still good, just 20% less mileage range. FWIW, I have never kept a car or truck that long.

What I would like to know is whether typical home L2 charging at a slower, lower amperage, extends that number a lot. If so, would the average owner see 400K miles or more out of the battery pack? If so, that would be awesome.


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## EbS-P (Nov 14, 2022)

begreen said:


> Yes. It drops to 80%. Note that those cycles are at full charge amperage which equals about 340 or more miles per cycle or around 228,000 miles or more during this 671 charge cycle span. At that point, an 80% remaining charge is still good, just 20% less mileage range. FWIW, I have never kept a car or truck that long.
> 
> What I would like to know is whether typical home L2 charging at a slower, lower amperage, extends that number a lot. If so, would the average owner see 400K miles or more out of the battery pack? If so, that would be awesome.


400k is not realistic based on past ownership trends. My family drives vehicles into the ground and the highest mileage one was 185k.  What’s a 20 year old BEV running like?  We will know in a few more years.   We know the battery is the most expensive item to replace.  And so a bad battery sends the high mileage vehicle to salvage, will we get used drive units sure used batteries ummm Tesla is installing them. Would you trust Joe’s Garage?   

I looked at a ford lightning tear down video.  Yeah it’s a man electric truck and yeah they had lots of space but the manufacturing process looked expensive because the engineers just went through their parts bin and found off the shelf parts to stick on wherever there was room.  Teslas cyber truck will be as disruptive as the rest of their line up to the auto industry.  It’s going to be an expensive truck but taking all the lessons they have learned and going ground up and not rushing I think the profit margins will be much higher than an ICE truck.


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## begreen (Nov 14, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> 400k is not realistic based on past ownership trends.


It's realistic for taxi and lease fleets.  
A lot of people like salesmen rack up 200k on a good car in 4 yrs. This would be a boon to them too.


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## Wisdomoak159#19 (Nov 15, 2022)

I still can't get over the price tag. This is why I drive old clapped out vehicles. My truck was $1200 wifes car 5k. Our backup car was hers from high-school. Bought a brand new Ford Fiesta in 2017 I think for under 14k. If people would quit paying 100k for new cars they would have to lower thier price. I can't even imagine paying 30k for a new vehichle.


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## woodgeek (Nov 15, 2022)

Wisdomoak159#19 said:


> I still can't get over the price tag. This is why I drive old clapped out vehicles. My truck was $1200 wifes car 5k. Our backup car was hers from high-school. Bought a brand new Ford Fiesta in 2017 I think for under 14k. If people would quit paying 100k for new cars they would have to lower thier price. I can't even imagine paying 30k for a new vehichle.


I'm with you.  I can't see paying $100k for a truck, or even $60k for a car.  I don't care if it has 'Corinthian Leather' on the inside.

My first EV was a $220/mo lease, 8 years ago.  My current one works out to $333/mo lease.  Even that seems extravagant to me.

For the record, the EV sales in California were sold below MSRP  (non-Teslas) or with cheap leases (Teslas).  The deals available in California make buying a LOT easier than in other states.

IMO EV sales in the US are 'scaling' just now.  Some used EVs are available now, but prices are held up by demand (in turn due to high gas prices).  In a few years, cheap used EVs will start to appear all over... esp cheap if the price of gas falls back to historical levels.


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## peakbagger (Nov 15, 2022)

My guess is the life of a vehicle up north is still going to be limited by rust and corrosion. The Rav 4 Hybrids and possibly my Prime is already having issues with a high voltage battery assembly corroding. The cable is not failing but a outer RF shield is failing. Toyota has changed the design at least once but as of this date they are not covering it under warranty and its reportedly a $3,500 fix. My guess is it's a future class action lawsuit. Teslas are designed and primarily marketed in milder climates and it will be interesting to see what happens over the years as they migrate up into the salt zone.  Talk to any new vehicle owner and a lot of them are ending at the dealer for electrical gremlins. 

I could see leasing to be an option in the future for my primary vehicle and let someone else deal with corrosion.


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## Shank (Nov 15, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> My guess is the life of a vehicle up north is still going to be limited by rust and corrosion. The Rav 4 Hybrids and possibly my Prime is already having issues with a high voltage battery assembly corroding. The cable is not failing but a outer RF shield is failing. Toyota has changed the design at least once but as of this date they are not covering it under warranty and its reportedly a $3,500 fix. My guess is it's a future class action lawsuit. Teslas are designed and primarily marketed in milder climates and it will be interesting to see what happens over the years as they migrate up into the salt zone.  Talk to any new vehicle owner and a lot of them are ending at the dealer for electrical gremlins.
> 
> I could see leasing to be an option in the future for my primary vehicle and let someone else deal with corrosion.


I'm not sure what the concerns (if any) with using a lanolin based undercoating like fluid film, but this makes an incredible difference with salt on ICE vehicles I have had/seen.  I know of an 2011 truck with approximately 185k miles still very clean corrosion wise.


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I'm with you.  I can't see paying $100k for a truck, or even $60k for a car.  I don't care if it has 'Corinthian Leather' on the inside.


Different strokes for different folks.  I'm not real picky about the type of leather (as long as it is leather), but I will plunk down an extra $20k for every additional 100 hp you offer me, almost without limit.  I hung out with an old friend yesterday who puts that value on heated seats and automatic doors, things I couldn't care less about.  Manufacturers must still make vehicles for people with questionable taste, if they're the paying customer.


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## Shank (Nov 15, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Different strokes for different folks.  I'm not real picky about the type of leather (as long as it is leather), but I will plunk down an extra $20k for every additional 100 hp you offer me, almost without limit.  I hung out with an old friend yesterday who puts that value on heated seats and automatic doors, things I couldn't care less about.  Manufacturers must still make vehicles for people with questionable taste, if they're the paying customer.


The power idea is seemingly going away on most things other than trucks and performance cars..  Having shopped for a smaller SUV I can't settle for the sub 200HP from almost every manufacture even though I won't primarily be driving it.


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

Shank said:


> The power idea is seemingly going away on most things other than trucks and performance cars..  Having shopped for a smaller SUV I can't settle for the sub 200HP from almost every manufacture even though I won't primarily be driving it.


Yeah, I know, which is fine.  In fact, the high torque offered by BEV's is likely to cause some now problems, in this regard, as they offer so much more than the average driver today is used to having.

Sub 200 hp SUV's?  Ha!  I still haven't forgiven my wife for buying a Durango R/T in 2020, instead of the SRT!  It was her car, I was told to "back off".     If they make a variant of the car you want, but with more horsepower... that's the one you buy!


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## Shank (Nov 15, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Yeah, I know, which is fine.  In fact, the high torque offered by BEV's is likely to cause some now problems, in this regard, as they offer so much more than the average driver today is used to having.
> 
> Sub 200 hp SUV's?  Ha!  I still haven't forgiven my wife for buying a Durango R/T in 2020, instead of the SRT!  It was her car, I was told to "back off".    If they make a variant of the car you want, but with more horsepower... that's the one you buy!


I have had very limited experience with anything with a battery but I am sure I will like the torque.

Compact, but yes.  It's hard to find anything that's not a 4 cylinder.  My wife is currently in a Yukon with just over 400hp.  I consider that just about adequate for that size vehicle but we really don't need as much vehicle for the next.  I sure miss my 500hp 6 speed manual car...


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## EbS-P (Nov 15, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Different strokes for different folks.  I'm not real picky about the type of leather (as long as it is leather), but I will plunk down an extra $20k for every additional 100 hp you offer me, almost without limit.  I hung out with an old friend yesterday who puts that value on heated seats and automatic doors, things I couldn't care less about.  Manufacturers must still make vehicles for people with questionable taste, if they're the paying customer.


Got the full story from my Brother in law and his new Tesla Plaid.  He almost wrecked it showing off to a friend on the first week.  I think he now of the opinion that there is an upper limit to the amount of power that manufacturers should be allowed to manufacture.  He took it out of Plaid mode and hasn’t put it back in.  So much for that extra 20k$


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Got the full story from my Brother in law and his new Tesla Plaid.  He almost wrecked it showing off to a friend on the first week.  I think he now of the opinion that there is an upper limit to the amount of power that manufacturers should be allowed to manufacture.  He took it out of Plaid mode and hasn’t put it back in.  So much for that extra 20k$


Meh... I grew up at the drag strip.  Had my first RWD-only 9-second car in my mid-20's.  So, yeah... we can all laugh at folks letting high-HP cars get away from them on YouTube, but plaid is right up my alley.


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## woodgeek (Nov 15, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Got the full story from my Brother in law and his new Tesla Plaid.  He almost wrecked it showing off to a friend on the first week.  I think he now of the opinion that there is an upper limit to the amount of power that manufacturers should be allowed to manufacture.  He took it out of Plaid mode and hasn’t put it back in.  So much for that extra 20k$


Haha.  The first time I did a 'launch' with the 2017 Bolt I was floored.  It's maybe 2.8 seconds 0-30.  I have never felt like I needed more than that.  Just worked out that that is about 0.5 'g's.


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## walhondingnashua (Nov 15, 2022)

The Plaid seems to be other-level fast/quick to a point it is not safe.  Wait until the roadster comes out.  Musk claims sub 2 sec car for around $200,000.


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

walhondingnashua said:


> The Plaid seems to be other-level fast/quick to a point it is not safe.  Wait until the roadster comes out.  Musk claims sub 2 sec car for around $200,000.


It's only 9.23 seconds 1/4 mile.  Mind-bending fast off the line, but actually relatively weak top end, for its price point.

I'd still love to have one, though.  Great fun around town.  I don't need 200 mph.


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## EbS-P (Nov 15, 2022)

walhondingnashua said:


> The Plaid seems to be other-level fast/quick to a point it is not safe.  Wait until the roadster comes out.  Musk claims sub 2 sec car for around $200,000.


Quad motor cyber truck will be fast.  Probably not 2.0 sec.


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## boomfire (Nov 15, 2022)

Ashful said:


> ... I don't need 200 mph.



Ahem, always need more speed 
I am not a car guy, but i enjoy all things MC. I remember topping out my bike at 165 on a circuit and had ear to ear grin on my face and thinking, too bad i couldn't go faster.


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## EbS-P (Nov 15, 2022)

Ashful said:


> It's only 9.23 seconds 1/4 mile.  Mind-bending fast off the line, but actually relatively weak top end, for its price point.
> 
> I'd still love to have one, though.  Great fun around town.  I don't need 200 mph.


A 9 sec daily driver is pretty amazing….


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> A 9 sec daily driver is pretty amazing….


Yep.  I've had a few.  One had the engine sticking so far out of the hood that friends would joke I needed a passenger to make right-hand turns.



boomfire said:


> Ahem, always need more speed


Not around here!  High HP is fun, but high speed kills.  I presently have a 500 hp sedan with a top speed near 200 mph, but I've never had it over maybe 95 mph.  I just get from zero to that 95 mph faster than the rest of the folks on the highway... excepting the Teslas, of course.  They take me off the line by a good margin, and we're near parity 30 - 60 mph, but my ICE is quicker 60 - 90 mph.

I'd personally be fine if they governed all on-road vehicles at 100 mph in the US.  Our roads aren't exactly Autobahn quality.


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## begreen (Nov 15, 2022)

Wisdomoak159#19 said:


> I still can't get over the price tag. This is why I drive old clapped out vehicles. My truck was $1200 wifes car 5k. Our backup car was hers from high-school. Bought a brand new Ford Fiesta in 2017 I think for under 14k. If people would quit paying 100k for new cars they would have to lower thier price. I can't even imagine paying 30k for a new vehichle.


Luxury sales are way up in 2022. Another symptom of wealth migration to the top.

None of the horsepower race makes sense if the point of EVs is to reduce the carbon footprint. Producing more boy toys does not solve the daily transportation needs of 99% of the population. In the hands of poor drivers, they are causing more accidents.


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## begreen (Nov 15, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> MO EV sales in the US are 'scaling' just now. Some used EVs are available now, but prices are held up by demand (in turn due to high gas prices). In a few years, cheap used EVs will start to appear all over... esp cheap if the price of gas falls back to historical levels.


We saw that with the Nissan Leaf pre-pandemic. You could pick one up in nice condition with relatively low miles for $5-7K.


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

begreen said:


> None of the horsepower race makes sense if the point of EVs is to reduce the carbon footprint. Producing more boy toys does not solve the daily transportation needs of 99% of the population. In the hands of poor drivers, they are causing more accidents.


The OP stated being "on the fence" about the purchase of a Rivian R1T, a $70,000 x 1000 hp pickup truck.  I dare say you've missed the point of this thread, begreen!

To the fraction of the population considering the purchase of a Rivian R1T, a reduction in carbon footprint might be a nice side effect, and not the sole purpose of considering this very luxurious purchase.


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## begreen (Nov 15, 2022)

The OP left the room a while ago but he ended up ordering a GMC Sierra Denali, not the Rivian. There was no mention of what the desired characteristics were but the price of the Rivian was a showstopper. Might just want to be the first one on the block to show it off.

FWIW $70k is not far off from an F150 Lariat in price.


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

begreen said:


> FWIW $70k is not far off from an F250 Lariat in price.


But the payload and towing of the Rivian R1T are right square in the middle of F150 / 1500 territory, yet it remains more expensive than an F250, similarly equipped.  It's only fair comparison might really be the V10 SRT pickup that Dodge discontinued a decade ago.

You're going to have trouble convincing me that any purchase of the R1T is for any reason other than show or giggles, similar to nearly any high-HP vehicle.


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## begreen (Nov 15, 2022)

Ashful said:


> But the payload and towing of the Rivian R1T are right square in the middle of F150 / 1500 territory, yet it remains more expensive than an F250, similarly equipped.  It's only fair comparison might really be the V10 SRT pickup that Dodge discontinued a decade ago.
> 
> You're going to have trouble convincing me that any purchase of the R1T is for any reason other than show or giggles, similar to nearly any high-HP vehicle.


I changed my posting with a quick price check. The F250 Lariat sells for about $15K more - $85K! It's the F150 Lariat that sells for around $70k and some change.


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2022)

begreen said:


> I changed my posting with a quick price check. The F250 Lariat sells for about $15K more - $85K! It's the F150 Lariat that sells for around $70k and some change.


Wow.  I'll say now that's more coin than I'd ever drop on a truck, but then I'm sure we'll all be there in a few more years.  The rate of increase in truck prices is just too much, but I know it's only driven by what's selling.

But the point remains that we should really only ever be comparing the R1T to 1/2 ton pickups, based on payload, towing, and nearly every other factor.


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## boomfire (Nov 15, 2022)

begreen said:


> The OP left the room a while ago but he ended up ordering a GMC Sierra Denali, not the Rivian. There was no mention of what the desired characteristics were but the price of the Rivian was a showstopper. Might just want to be the first one on the block to show it off.
> 
> FWIW $70k is not far off from an F150 Lariat in price.



Nope, Never mentioned the price of rivian other than being on fence, but mentioned about GMC denali (107k msrp for high end model) -  Link
Price of rivian is not a show stopper but rather it is a startup and hesitancy towards any sort of future maintenance.

I have no interest in showing off anything. where i live, i am surrounded by hillbillies, Some of the nicest people i've ever met but wrong crowd to marvel at an EV. Now I am one of them ha.

I just want something practical and willing to wait. I can get by until then.


----------



## boomfire (Nov 15, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Wow.  I'll say now that's more coin than I'd ever drop on a truck, but then I'm sure we'll all be there in a few more years.  The rate of increase in truck prices is just too much, but I know it's only driven by what's selling.
> 
> But the point remains that we should really only ever be comparing the R1T to 1/2 ton pickups, based on payload, towing, and nearly every other factor.



Agreed. R1T seems more of a life style truck than what I am looking for. I really like the look of it. thats about it.


----------



## begreen (Nov 15, 2022)

boomfire said:


> Never mentioned the price of rivian other than being on fence, but mentioned about GMC denali (107k msrp for high end model


Astounding. That's a lot more than we paid for our first house - with a 30 yr mortgage. Agreed the Denali is a more practical truck, though towing range is still TBD. Hopefully the Denali is delayed long enough to get the gen2 Ultium battery for greater range.


----------



## boomfire (Nov 15, 2022)

begreen said:


> Astounding. That's a lot more than we paid for our first house. Hope the Denali is delayed long enough to get the gen2 Ultium battery for greater range.



Yep. they releasing the most expensive trim first (2024) and cheaper trim (elevation) in 2025, which was supposed to be in 50-70k range. which is a bit more realistic.  Now if they can offer 400  miles per charge on the cheaper model, its going to be a winner i think.


----------



## DBoon (Dec 3, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> The first time I did a 'launch' with the 2017 Bolt I was floored. It's maybe 2.8 seconds 0-30.


Many people have a belief that a BEV is like a golf cart, slow and plodding. So the first thing I always do when I take somebody for a drive in my Bolt is that same demonstration - 0-30 in very few seconds. It shocks almost everyone who experiences it. The hardest part is starting slow enough so the tires don't spin.


----------



## coaly (Dec 3, 2022)

By the time Tesla makes a stainless steel truck I won’t live long enough for a Ford to rust away.

Ford will honor the original price for anyone who reserved their place in line for the $100 deposit. Like most, I didn’t want a first year experiment truck, and waited to find a $7000 price increase for the next year.


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 3, 2022)

I’m all in go big or go home!!





						Everything Tesla Revealed During Its SEMI Truck Delivery Event | Carscoops
					

The Semi's powertrain will make it into other vehicles and the Cybertruck will be capable of



					www.carscoops.com


----------



## begreen (Dec 3, 2022)

If the range drops in half when towing, then these trucks are going to have a harder adoption rate for horse, rv, and boat owners.


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 3, 2022)

begreen said:


> If the range drops in half when towing, then these trucks are going to have a harder adoption rate for horse, rv, and boat owners.


Tesla has a 900kwh battery pack for the semi and 1Mw charging.   Towing range wont be an issue in a couple years if you have the money to spend.


----------



## begreen (Dec 3, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> Tesla has a 900kwh battery pack for the semi and 1Mw charging.   Towing range wont be an issue in a couple years if you have the money to spend.


Better put those batteries on a diet to be in a 1/2 ton pickup. That's a lot of weight. Plus, 1 mW charging is not showing up at the local Walmart anytime soon, if ever.


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## ABMax24 (Dec 3, 2022)

By my math 300kwh is the bare minimum I could get away with in a 1 ton truck to actually be of any use, I don't see that coming anytime soon.

So on that note the new '23 Ford 6.7 Powerstroke HO is 500hp, 1,200 ft/lbs of torque and comes mated to a 10-speed automatic. Someone just take my money now!


----------



## EbS-P (Dec 4, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> By my math 300kwh is the bare minimum I could get away with in a 1 ton truck to actually be of any use, I don't see that coming anytime soon.
> 
> So on that note the new '23 Ford 6.7 Powerstroke HO is 500hp, 1,200 ft/lbs of torque and comes mated to a 10-speed automatic. Someone just take my money now!


300 might be a stretch.  I’m not sure what the 1 ton market BEV market will look like.  Tesla can easily meet those power numbers with existing tech with a trim motor.  


begreen said:


> Better put those batteries on a diet to be in a 1/2 ton pickup. That's a lot of weight. Plus, 1 mW charging is not showing up at the local Walmart anytime soon, if ever.


But I bet we start seeing them at truck stops before 2023 is over.  I think it’s a bit gimmicky but the tech is real.   I was pondering if any of the regular towing routes taken as a kid pulling a boat and camper would be possible.   Longest stretch between chargers is 150 miles.   It probably would have required charging at the rv campsite a bit (adding 30% charge) to get back home.


----------



## Stelcom66 (Dec 4, 2022)

I'd think a BEV stuck in traffic would be a concern, especially in winter or summer with the heater or air conditioning running. Climate control must be a significant draw on the system. 



DBoon said:


> Many people have a belief that a BEV is like a golf cart, slow and plodding. So the first thing I always do when I take somebody for a drive in my Bolt is that same demonstration - 0-30 in very few seconds. It shocks almost everyone who experiences it. The hardest part is starting slow enough so the tires don't spin.



I'd prefer less power and a longer range. The acceleration of some of these EVs is crazy fast, 0 to 60 in 5 seconds or less, and some of the new pickup trucks are close to being capable of that. Sure would be fun though, but it would be nice if there was an option to select driving modes, one favoring acceleration and another providing less available power and a longer range. Maybe there is, being and electronic system the settings probably could easily be done.


----------



## begreen (Dec 4, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> It probably would have required charging at the rv campsite a bit (adding 30% charge) to get back home.


Not much help out here where there are high mountain passes and no towns for 50 miles or more. Most hunters are not camping out at KOA.  If someone wanted to go RV camping in Eastern OR they might be SOL.

I think BEV personal trucks will be popular with the suburban set, but not a practical solution for those living far outside of urban areas for quite a while. OTOH, they make great sense for commercial applications where the truck or van sees less than 200 mi travel on a daily basis.


----------



## woodgeek (Dec 4, 2022)

Stelcom66 said:


> I'd think a BEV stuck in traffic would be a concern, especially in winter or summer with the heater or air conditioning running. Climate control must be a significant draw on the system.



Seems like it should be.  But in practice, the biggest drain is driving FAST on the HW.  I get 270 miles on back roads and around town, and maybe 220 miles on the HW at 75 mph.  So when there is (moving) traffic, while it takes longer to get home, I get there with MORE charge than I would otherwise.   I've seen this MANY times.

If I was stuck in traffic for a couple DAYS, like a blizzard or something... I'd turn the seat heaters on, the cabin on low, and the battery could keep me warm for a few days. Ofc, I'm not expecting to get stuck in traffic that long without moving.  On the bright side, if my car gets buried in snow, I won't die of CO poisoning.

One 'risk' is WIND.  Lots of folks report there being a hard steady headwind and it eating a bit of range.  A 20 mph headwind when I'm driving at 75 feels like driving 90 mph...yikes!  And THAT is why I have a buffer.  Topography also matters, but the route planning software I use takes that into account already.


----------



## ABMax24 (Dec 4, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> 300 might be a stretch.  I’m not sure what the 1 ton market BEV market will look like.  Tesla can easily meet those power numbers with existing tech with a trim motor.



But they can't sustain that output like a diesel engine can, I'm not sure of the motors, but the batteries definitely overheat at those outputs. That's why I'm thinking 300kwh, because it might be able to deliver 400+hp continuously on some of the long grades in the Rockies.


----------



## begreen (Dec 4, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> But they can't sustain that output like a diesel engine can, I'm not sure of the motors, but the batteries definitely overheat at those outputs. That's why I'm thinking 300kwh, because it might be able to deliver 400+hp continuously on some of the long grades in the Rockies.


There probably is a limit, but I've read that they are testing some of these EVs under load in the mountains in Southern California. The battery pack has a cooling system. Some transfer the waste heat into passenger cabin heating when there is a need. This helps extend the winter driving range.


----------



## Stelcom66 (Dec 4, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> Seems like it should be.  But in practice, the biggest drain is driving FAST on the HW.  I get 270 miles on back roads and around town, and maybe 220 miles on the HW at 75 mph.  So when there is (moving) traffic, while it takes longer to get home, I get there with MORE charge than I would otherwise.   I've seen this MANY times....



Those mileage ranges are good IMO, I could deal with that. Some ICE vehicles with fuel tanks on the small size may be lucky to hit 300 miles from a tankful, less in urban/suburban driving. So then with BEVs, speed is more of a factor, which makes sense. I'll admit it takes some thinking different than what  I've been used to all these years, such as better fuel economy results on the highway with an ICE vehicle, while a BEV will do better around town.

I guess with a BEV the vehicle doesn't need to 'warm up' for both motor efficiency and using the heater. I saw a post an another forum where someone was concerned about how a BEV would 'start' in cold weather. I'd think it doesn't 'start' just turns on. Maybe another advantage for BEVs, there's no engine to turn over. Maybe more current draw in cold weather, but I'd think once it's on you're good to go with full heater potential.



begreen said:


> The battery pack has a cooling system. Some transfer the waste heat into passenger cabin heating when there is a need. This helps extend the winter driving range.



Interesting - so not all cabin heating is done by a conventional electric heater.


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## EbS-P (Dec 4, 2022)

ABMax24 said:


> But they can't sustain that output like a diesel engine can, I'm not sure of the motors, but the batteries definitely overheat at those outputs. That's why I'm thinking 300kwh, because it might be able to deliver 400+hp continuously on some of the long grades in the Rockies.


So for all the interstate passes I bet there is already a DC charging station within 40 miles of the pass.  More new and faster will be built.  If it can not pull rated loads up an interstate pass it won’t be sold.  We are discussing range desired range given current tech.  Future rage will be longer more and faster chargers are already being built.   No one has to worry about any forced BE truck purchases.  Honestly I am considering renting for the next Laing haul family vacation. I think will become a more popular option in the future.


----------



## Ashful (Dec 4, 2022)

220 miles vs. 270 miles seems irrelevant, when the current ICE "outdoorsman" pickups are arguing over 600 vs. 800 mile ranges.


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## begreen (Dec 4, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> So for all the interstate passes I bet there is already a DC charging station within 40 miles of the pass.  More new and faster will be built.  If it can not pull rated loads up an interstate pass it won’t be sold.  We are discussing range desired range given current tech.  Future rage will be longer more and faster chargers are already being built.   No one has to worry about any forced BE truck purchases.  Honestly I am considering renting for the next Laing haul family vacation. I think will become a more popular option in the future.


Look at a map of eastern OR. Not much out there. The interstate runs along the Columbia on the north edge of the state with nothing south of there. If you are going from Pendelton, OR to Reno, NV you will need about 590 miles range.  There is nada in between according to Plug Share. You can take a detour route via Interstate 84, but that adds miles and not good if you need to stop in Burns, OR along the way. I just don't see the ranchers there, or in Montana, S. or N. Dakota, etc. running out to the interstate for a charge.


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## EbS-P (Dec 4, 2022)

begreen said:


> Look at a map of eastern OR. Not much out there. The interstate runs along the Columbia on the north edge of the state with nothing south of there. If you are going from Pendelton, OR to Reno, NV you will need about 590 miles range.  There is nada in between according to Plug Share. You can take a detour route via Interstate 84, but that adds miles and not good if you need to stop in Burns, OR along the way. I just don't see the ranchers there, or in Montana, S. or N. Dakota, etc. running out to the interstate for a charge.


They won’t be for everyone.  Rural places are going to need substantially more infrastructure spending per capita than the coasts and suburbia.  There will be places you won’t get to vacation pulling an RV with a BET.  There are places now you can’t pull your trailer too.  Owners will figure what’s important to them.  Plenty of people are pulling campers with BEVs now.  They made a choice or several cascading choices.  

After 9 months of owning a BEV it’s never been out of town (maybe not even outside the city limits).  We take the van because thats where we and all our stuff fit.   Point is a BET might not be a direct replacement for a 3/4 or 1 ton truck but I bet it could do a large portion.  It’s the stuff is can’t will, I think drive purchase decisions in the 3/4 a1 ton segment.  Will you keep the old truck and add a BET?  That’s an option that might make sense for some.  But it out the oldest highest mileage vehicle in the most desolate remote places.  How appealing is that??   Decisions, decisions.


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## woodgeek (Dec 4, 2022)

begreen said:


> Look at a map of eastern OR. Not much out there. The interstate runs along the Columbia on the north edge of the state with nothing south of there. If you are going from Pendelton, OR to Reno, NV you will need about 590 miles range.  There is nada in between according to Plug Share. You can take a detour route via Interstate 84, but that adds miles and not good if you need to stop in Burns, OR along the way. I just don't see the ranchers there, or in Montana, S. or N. Dakota, etc. running out to the interstate for a charge.



ABRP finds a route in seconds, with Burns, OR as a waypoint.  PlugShare is obsolete, and doesn't list all DCFCs.






						ABRP
					






					abetterrouteplanner.com
				




A hypothetical F-150 lightning handles the 590 mile route with 3 hours charging time and 9.7 hours road time.

My Bolt can make it too, but takes 4 hours to charge.

The DCFC in Burns is sketchy, with a single 62 kW CCS stall:









						Harney County Chamber Of Commerce | PlugShare
					

Both J-1772 and 50 amp outlet in the rear parking lot. Update: The ChargePoint appears to be 125 Amp DC. (CCS) and CHAdeMO.  There’s also a Tesla J-1772 that charges at 70amp across the lot (was free when I charged). The Nema 14-50 outlet cover was on and a tag held it shut.



					www.plugshare.com


----------



## KBCraig (Dec 5, 2022)

I love technology and new developments, but reality doesn't always match up with expectations and promises. 

If you like EVs, you should follow Rich Rebuilds. 

Here was his experience driving a Rivian from Newark to Florida, desperately hunting charging stations, only to find that more than one was out of service.


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> I love technology and new developments, but reality doesn't always match up with expectations and promises.
> 
> If you like EVs, you should follow Rich Rebuilds.
> 
> Here was his experience driving a Rivian from Newark to Florida, desperately hunting charging stations, only to find that more than one was out of service.




There are a bunch of folks writing newspaper articles and making YouTube videos these days who are simply using the wrong apps.  Oddly, the many thousands of people EV roadtripping all over the US every day without any drama at all... they don't get any articles or videos.

This guy 'couldn't find the ultrafast chargers' for his Rivian.  Did he try downloading the EA app, that shows such chargers every 100 miles or so on all the major interstates all over the NorthEast?  How about the ABRP app that shows the same thing?  When I drive through those I see tons of other EVs, including Rivians.

Plugshare was a cash poor volunteer effort for many years, and was recently bought by EVGo, the competitor to the largest DCFC network.  The result has been that PlugShare has started not showing EA stations (sometimes), despite them being the fastest and biggest and most numerous out there.  After (experienced) user complaints, and a wave of videos like this one, they have started showing them again.

Newb's trying to roadtrip with Plugshare routinely find that dealership DCFCs (most of which were installed 5+ years ago) either don't work anymore, or are behind locked gates during off hours.

I have been roadtripping EVs since 2015, and I have NEVER considered using a dealership DCFC.  I also avoid low power DCFCs, which is any network other than EA or EVGo (in the NorthEast). Many dealerships are EV hostile, and got single low power DCFCs on their own dime bc the maker compelled them to.  And they have no interest in randos using it.

Plugshare is still useful, but you can't just look at the map and say 'Look! there is a DCFC there... ' you need to click the station and then if you see that no one has charged there since 2018, um, just ignore it.

If this sounds too hard for you... just use ABRP to route your trip efficiently through big stations (with multiple high power stalls) in seconds.  If its the first time you are taking that trip... then check PlugShare (or the network app) to verify that the stations are working.

I know this sounds hard to believe.... that this car savvy YouTuber or a write for the NYT or WSJ was **just using the wrong app**, but it is literally that stupid.   This content generates tons of clicks, and hundreds of users happily charging at your local 300 kW DCFC does not.  Its a man bites dog story... rich dude buy $100k and runs out of charge! 

Ignore the noise.  Or better, in each case you see this, plug the route into ABRP yourself, and see what it says.  It will find you a route with a bunch of large stations that will get you to the destination far quicker than the YouTuber or journalist.  In fact, when these mass media BS things appear, often EV owners will take the route the next week in the same vehicle, without any trouble, and make a YouTube video of their own about it.  That no one will ever watch.

ETA: This guy also drove down the DELMARVA peninsula.  Which has almost no population, only dinky little roads, and yes, only one  DCFC.  I don't know anyone who drives from the NorthEast to the SouthEast down Delmarva.  They take I-95!  Which has 150/300 kW stations evert 60-80 miles the whole way!  Sheesh.


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## EbS-P (Dec 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> There are a bunch of folks writing newspaper articles and making YouTube videos these days who are simply using the wrong apps.  Oddly, the many thousands of people EV roadtripping all over the US every day without any drama at all... they don't get any articles or videos.
> 
> This guy 'couldn't find the ultrafast chargers' for his Rivian.  Did he try downloading the EA app, that shows such chargers every 100 miles or so on all the major interstates all over the NorthEast?  How about the ABRP app that shows the same thing?  When I drive through those I see tons of other EVs, including Rivians.
> 
> ...


Look he’s trying to turn a profit from YouTube. Anyone with more than 1 million subs knows how to work the algorithms.  I’m guessing all this drama was probably intentional.   The Rivian was probably a choice based on algorithms too.


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## Shank (Dec 5, 2022)

Being completely uninformed, on a road trip for an average electric vehicle, how long does it take to recharge at a station?  Obviously many variables here, but just looking for a ballpark.


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2022)

Shank said:


> Being completely uninformed, on a road trip for an average electric vehicle, how long does it take to recharge at a station?  Obviously many variables here, but just looking for a ballpark.



The cheapest/slowest would be my Bolt EV, which can add 100 miles of range in about 35-40 minutes (best case), and has a starting range of about 220 miles at high HW speeds.  So if you are going <200 miles, no charging time.  If you are going 300 miles, 40 minutes.  If 400 miles, two 40 minute stops.   So, for shorter trips no bigs, but for a 600 mile trip (say 10 hours driving time) I am stopped 4 times for at least 2.5 hours.

For a more expensive EV (Tesla or Non-Tesla) they fast charge 2-3X faster, so that the stop times would be more like 15 minutes.  And IMO (4) 15 minute stops in a 11 hour (total) 600 mile drive is not a big deal.

In below freezing temps, range drops by a third, so make the total charging time 50% higher.


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## Shank (Dec 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> The cheapest/slowest would be my Bolt EV, which can add 100 miles of range in about 35-40 minutes (best case), and has a starting range of about 220 miles at high HW speeds.  So if you are going <200 miles, no charging time.  If you are going 300 miles, 40 minutes.  If 400 miles, two 40 minute stops.   So, for shorter trips no bigs, but for a 600 mile trip (say 10 hours driving time) I am stopped 4 times for at least 2.5 hours.
> 
> For a more expensive EV (Tesla or Non-Tesla) they fast charge 2-3X faster, so that the stop times would be more like 15 minutes.  And IMO (4) 15 minute stops in a 11 hour (total) 600 mile drive is not a big deal.
> 
> In below freezing temps, range drops by a third, so make the total charging time 50% higher.


Thank you for that.  At some point in the somewhat near future I will have to replace a commuter car and may consider going the EV route.


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## EbS-P (Dec 5, 2022)

Shank said:


> Thank you for that.  At some point in the somewhat near future I will have to replace a commuter car and may consider going the EV route.


2024 will be very different than 2023 as far as options go.  I don’t see a lot of new models with wide spread availability in 2023.  The bolt or (and I will take some flack for this due to it’s slow charging) a used Leaf would be at the top of my list


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## EbS-P (Dec 5, 2022)

He said it. Not me!








						Elon Musk hits back at Joe Biden: Or you can just buy a Tesla
					

Elon Musk doesn't miss an opportunity to take a pop at the President of the United States, Joe Biden, doing so every time he alludes to the electrification of the American...




					amp.marca.com


----------



## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> He said it. Not me!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Given the fact that the IRA will restore the $7500 rebate to many Tesla vehicles, combined with Elon's current popularity trajectory... Joe might sell more Teslas in 2023 than Elon does.


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## KBCraig (Dec 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> I know this sounds hard to believe.... that this car savvy YouTuber or a write for the NYT or WSJ was **just using the wrong app**, but it is literally that stupid.


And that (other than cost) is why everyday drivers still reject EVs. 

Other than Death Valley, you can drive anywhere in America with ICE power, 24/7, and never have to plan fuel stops while on major highways. 

Even in podunk backwaters or Delmarva back roads, you can find gasoline and pay at the pump around the clock. You don't have to go off-route for fuel, you don't have to hunt for a compatible gas pump, and they all flow at about the same rate. 

300 miles of range followed by a 10 minute fuel break at any major exit, and you're back on the road. 

I'm NOT anti-EV. I'm very impressed with the technology. Until some "newb" can drive cross country in one as easily as they do with ICE, it's not ready for prime time.


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> And that (other than cost) is why everyday drivers still reject EVs.
> 
> Other than Death Valley, you can drive anywhere in America with ICE power, 24/7, and never have to plan fuel stops while on major highways.
> 
> ...



The newb just has to use an app that is about as hard to use as the apps on your smart TV when you want to find a movie to watch.  Really.  2022 is the year of folks making clickbait videos and stories of how impossible it is to charge an EV.  Doesn't mean that is reality.  There are close to a million BEVs on American roads... and how many thousands of them are being road-tripped every day?

And I have many times been driving around away from home and had to hunt (or google) for a gas station.  Near home, no. But near home, I plug in my EV in my garage.  

There is a chicken and egg problem... are supposed to build a huge network and THEN sell EVs?  Or sell all the EVs first?  AS it is, we are rolling out both at the same time, and both are ready for prime time in most US locations.


----------



## KBCraig (Dec 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> The newb just has to use an app that is about as hard to use as the apps on your smart TV when you want to find a movie to watch.  Really.


Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all. 

"You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.


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## Ashful (Dec 5, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.
> 
> "You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.


Yes, they are too stupid.  But they're also an insignificantly (and soon to be mostly dead) fraction of the population, hardly the prime demographic target of any auto maker aiming to remain solvent.  Politicians must cater to this demographic, but auto makers much less so.

I've said it a half dozen times on this forum alone, but someday you're going to feel like a real idiot trying to explain to your grandkids that you thought it was easier to drive across town and stand by a gas pump for 6 minutes, rather than just plugging your car into the wall when you got home at night.

This is coming from a serious petrol-head, I presently own three Dodge Hemi's among a few other gas guzzlers, but even I can see the writing on the wall.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 5, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.
> 
> "You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.


How many people do you really think use a flip pone in 2022? I was a flip phone user from March 2019- Nov 2022. I can tell you that even in the tiny rural fishbowl of Washington County Maine, I was among an overwhelmingly tiny minority. People would constantly forget that I had a flip phone, even though it was a crazy thing. Since my carrier was sunsetting 3G I decided it was time to rejoin the 21st century and try and push my Farm-stead on social media. There will be ICE users until the fuel becomes literally impossible to acquire. There are still people out there with functioning ICE vehicles from over 100 years ago, so I know they will continue long into the future as a niche. Anyway, back to EVs, we are in the infancy of a relatively new tech. The rise of ICE took well over 100 years to reach full maturity. EVs are far less.


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## woodgeek (Dec 5, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.
> 
> "You're just too stupid and primitive!" has never been a great way to encourage mass adoption of anything.



Huh, I see how you got there, but not what I meant when I said 'stupid'.

Using an EV is easy.  Anyone who can work a smart TV can do it.  And I haven't met many people who can't work Netflix.  And I haven't seen a flip phone in use in I don't know how long.

I meant the content of the article is stupid.   And perhaps willfully so (to get clicks).

5-10 years ago there were lots of stories in newspapers, and on different car TV shows about Tesla's running out of charge and stranding people.  Ofc, none of that was based in reality.  In a NYT article back then, the journalist was given a Model S for a week, and a charger at his home, and a portable 120V charger to charge it with, and he ran out of juice and got stranded.

What happened.  He never plugged it in. And just drove it until it ran out.  And wrote an article about how Tesla was not ready for prime time.  He did that on purpose so the article would go viral.

Same for Jeremy Clarkson.  Took a Tesla with 5% charge out on the track, and it was a dog and stopped before it went very far.  For ratings.

Both people confessed.

Now we have the same thing about non-Tesla EVs and DCFCs.  Yawn.


----------



## Ashful (Dec 5, 2022)

I do know a half dozen people who have bought new flip phones in the last two years.  But none of them are potential buyers of new cars.


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## KBCraig (Dec 5, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> Huh, I see how you got there, but not what I meant when I said 'stupid'.
> 
> Using an EV is easy.  Anyone who can work a smart TV can do it.  And I haven't met many people who can't work Netflix.  And I haven't seen a flip phone in use in I don't know how long.


You and I live in different worlds. 

I know people at the top end of the tech spectrum, and those who only have landlines, no computer or cell phone, and would still be watching OTA television if it was available (it's not, where I live, even for high tech cord-cutters). 

I'm glad you have had great luck carefully planning your EV travels with the right app. 

Your dedicated research into EV travel simply does not translate to much of the country, or the needs of everyday non-EV drivers. 

There's one ChargePoint station in my town, but it's at a campground that is closed November-May. There are a couple of Tesla Destination chargers within 50 miles, and one Tesla Supercharger about 60 miles away. 

None of my daily travels take me near any of those. 

I'll stick with my 30mpg compact crossover, because I'm never more than 20 miles from buying gasoline.


----------



## KBCraig (Dec 5, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> How many people do you really think use a flip pone in 2022?


I know more people who have no cell phone at all, but quite a few people who only have basic feature phones, and no idea how to use them for anything other than making a call.


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## bholler (Dec 6, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> You and I live in different worlds.
> 
> I know people at the top end of the tech spectrum, and those who only have landlines, no computer or cell phone, and would still be watching OTA television if it was available (it's not, where I live, even for high tech cord-cutters).
> 
> ...


But the thing is you won't need a charger for everyday driving.  You would plug it in when you get home and have a full charge in the morning.   That being said I am not ready to take the leap myself.  Possibly when my wife's car needs replaced.  But I mainly drive work trucks and for those there certainly is no ev option yet.  

And no the people who aren't using smart phones now obviously are not going to be early adopters of EVs.  They clearly are not the target market.  By the time those people would be buying one there will be chargers everywhere.  As someone said previously ice vehicles had exactly the same challenges in the beginning as well.  And for a while they simply were not ready for the main stream.  That is where EVs are now.  They are a good product just not right for everyone.  Yet.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 6, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> I know more people who have no cell phone at all, but quite a few people who only have basic feature phones, and no idea how to use them for anything other than making a call.


Your own personal experience is not indicative of the population as a whole.

85% of American adults own a smartphone and 86% of the global population owns a smartphone. I would suppose that the majority of children in the US also have smartphones, but there is limited data for that. So yeah, 15% of adults that don't own smartphones are not making a serious impact on BEV sales. I would also expect the number of smartphone users to continue increasing as folks that don't want smartphones are literally dying out. Same with BEV sales, which you can see happening right now in real time. I can't really understand how anyone can look at the sales data and not come to the conclusion that traditional ICE are dying out.

Smartphone statistics


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## sloeffle (Dec 6, 2022)

begreen said:


> If the range drops in half when towing, then these trucks are going to have a harder adoption rate for horse, rv, and boat owners.


People that use trucks what they are intended for, not folks that buy a truck just to take it to the grocery store, or to try and keep with the Joneses. I fall into the category of using a truck what it's intended for.


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## Shank (Dec 6, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> People that use trucks what they are intended for, not folks that buy a truck just to take it to the grocery store, or to try and keep with the Joneses. I fall into the category of using a truck what it's intended for.


Mine used to have real purpose... Now it primarily sits and is only used on trips/pulling trailers 2,000 miles or less a year anymore.


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## Ashful (Dec 6, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> People that use trucks what they are intended for, not folks that buy a truck just to take it to the grocery store, or to try and keep with the Joneses. I fall into the category of using a truck what it's intended for.


I hear what you're saying, and you definitely represent a good part of the truck-buying public, esp. on 3/4 ton and up models.  But my truck is intended for pulling heavy loads short distances, which might represent another reasonable fraction of the overall user base.  I'm pulling my tandem-axle trailer full of logs, or loaded with a tractor and loader, but rarely much more than 10 miles from home when loaded heavy.  We also don't use it for long trips, preferring to take a 6-seat SUV for those.

A BET could work for this usage profile, perhaps the only real headache being that I tend to like to leave my truck outside, and preserve garage space for other toys.  This makes plugs and cords decidedly less fun, especially in winter snow and freezing rain.


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## sloeffle (Dec 6, 2022)

I live in pretty rural area ( it's becoming less rural by the day unfortunately ) and pretty much all of my acquittances or friends have trucks. Most of them either have 3/4 or 1 ton trucks because they have a camper or a farm. A few have 1/2 tons, but the majority are like me, they buy a truck to do truck type things. Most of them have non-farm type day jobs, none of them drive their trucks to work or use them for "getting groceries". They have all have a "beater" car that they drive to and from work to do these types of things.

I'm definitely the odd man out but based off what I see at the grocery store and via truck vs car sales. I guess I don't understand why would you drive a vehicle that's expensive to insure, gets crappy MPG, and expensive to work on as a daily commuter.  Don't get me started on the trucks with 4' beds, talk about worthless vehicles. That's what cars and SUVs are for. Guess my point is, I think 80 - 90% of the people that have trucks don't really use them to do truck type stuff.

Sorry, I know I'm getting way off topic. Soap box over with.


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## Ashful (Dec 6, 2022)

What will be interesting is that, knowing batteries can be heavy, what will be the weight classes and subsequent costs associated with a "1/2 ton" or "3/4 ton" pickup?  My last several 1/2 ton vehicles have all been around 4600 lb. curb weight with 6400 lb. gross, but it's likely even a 1/2 ton might come in over 5k curb and 7k gross, with 3/4's and 1-ton's going up from there.  I already have to buy a class-2 registration for my 1/2-ton truck, but maybe the budget-sensitive Ford Ranger crowd will be having to do so in the future.


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## EbS-P (Dec 6, 2022)

Shank said:


> Mine used to have real purpose... Now it primarily sits and is only used on trips/pulling trailers 2,000 miles or less a year anymo





sloeffle said:


> I live in pretty rural area ( it's becoming less rural by the day unfortunately ) and pretty much all of my acquittances or friends have trucks. Most of them either have 3/4 or 1 ton trucks because they have a camper or a farm. A few have 1/2 tons, but the majority are like me, they buy a truck to do truck type things. Most of them have non-farm type day jobs, none of them drive their trucks to work or use them for "getting groceries". They have all have a "beater" car that they drive to and from work to do these types of things.
> 
> I'm definitely the odd man out but based off what I see at the grocery store and via truck vs car sales. I guess I don't understand why would you drive a vehicle that's expensive to insure, gets crappy MPG, and expensive to work on as a daily commuter.  Don't get me started on the trucks with 4' beds, talk about worthless vehicles. That's what cars and SUVs are for. Guess my point is, I think 80 - 90% of the people that have trucks don't really use them to do truck type stuff.
> 
> Sorry, I know I'm getting way off topic. Soap box over with.


You’re not from the south! We just had to outlaw the “Carolina squat”  look that up!   Drive your your truck to drop your kids off at daycare then you go to your office job.  Extra cool points if it’s a Duramax with not a spec of rust in/around the hitch receiver.  Triple cool points if you got extra wide rims and have all season tires on them that probably don’t match the load rating on the door sticker


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## EbS-P (Dec 6, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> You’re not from the south! We just had to outlaw the “Carolina squat”  look that up!   Drive your your truck to drop your kids off at daycare then you go to your office job.  Extra cool points if it’s a Duramax with not a spec of rust in/around the hitch receiver.  Triple cool points if you got extra wide rims and have all season tires on them that probably don’t match the load rating on the door sticker


Infinity cool points if your turbo make really loud whooshy noises while driving abound town.  I got a couple on my street.  I’ve named them names I won’t share here.  And up until a couple years ago I kinda wanted one.   Well at least the whooshing noises.  Oh and they make speakers and mico switches that you can install to get them. Almost got it for my minivan.  Then I stopped watching power driven diesels YouTube channel for no particular reason and a now I just shake me head.


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## Shank (Dec 6, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> You’re not from the south! We just had to outlaw the “Carolina squat”  look that up!   Drive your your truck to drop your kids off at daycare then you go to your office job.  Extra cool points if it’s a Duramax with not a spec of rust in/around the hitch receiver.  Triple cool points if you got extra wide rims and have all season tires on them that probably don’t match the load rating on the door sticker


Dang, I have a Duramax, office job, no rust around the hitch (except where the hitch slides in...) and it makes some turbo noise (not by desire.... looking to get rid of that eventually).  

BUT, it does primarily sit until I need it for truck functions.


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## bholler (Dec 6, 2022)

I have 3 trucks and a work van all of which are used almost exclusively for truck things.  2 have ladder racks.  The other has a snowplow and dump bed.

But then I have the bronco which is just a toy.

Oh and all the trucks have 2 doors and 8' beds because they are trucks not passenger cars


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## Ashful (Dec 7, 2022)

With regard to bed length vs extra doors, each new truck I get seems to have a bigger cab and a smaller bed, not by my choice but by what's available.  But I've also never lost much sleep over it, I use my trailer anytime I'm moving anything big or heavy anyway.

1.  Trailer holds many times more weight than my truck, or really any pickup truck.  5k vs. 1-2k lb. payload... no comparison.
2.  Trailer can be unhooked and left with load on it overnight, I'm not always rushing to get it unloaded when I get home.  I even welded jack stands to both rear corners, so I can take all weight off the suspension and leave it loaded for days, if needed.  Each of my five wood sheds was built by parking trailer full of all concrete block and lumber right next to my build site, and building with material pulled directly from trailer, which I could never do with a truck I need to drive in-between.
3.  Trailer has a 16' x 6' = 96 sf box whereas trucks are now all 5.5' x 5' or 6.5' x 5' (or even 4' between wheel wells).

I still move most smaller quantities of lumber and bagged goods (up to 1k lb.) in the pickup, but what's more important to me than having 8 feet of bed to brag about, is the max tongue weight and towing capacity of the truck.

So, yeah... I drive my kids to school and even occasionally get groceries in my pickup.  It pulls my several trailers on weekends, and does random smaller trips for lumber and bulk goods in the bed between.  Dunno if people I pass on the road think I'm a wuss for doing "non truck things" in it, when they see me in the carpool lane at school, but I really don't care.  I've outgrown the part of life where I care what someone else thinks of my truck, or what I do with it.


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## sloeffle (Dec 7, 2022)

This was on the news last night. There's a company in NYC delivering beer with electric semis. The driver said he liked the electric semi much better than a diesel semi.



			https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/major-u-s-companies-switching-to-electric-vehicles-156418629643


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## boomfire (Dec 7, 2022)

i have put in an inquiry couple of months ago with several fords for a lightning. got a call and a message a few days ago. Such a sweat deal I tell ya.


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## Ashful (Dec 7, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> This was on the news last night. There's a company in NYC delivering beer with electric semis. The driver said he like the electric semi much better than a diesel semi.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/major-u-s-companies-switching-to-electric-vehicles-156418629643


Yeah, I watched that same story.  Very cool.  The truck was made by Tesla.

Really liked the earlier part of it, with the autonomous Rivian EV Amazon delivery vans.  I'll admit I was only half paying attention while working on something else, but it appeared as if the "driver" was able to walk alongside next to the van as they worked their way thru a neighborhood, rather than having to climb in and out of the driver's seat between each house.  If so, it would be an enormous efficiency savings, and less fatigue on a driver who presently has to constantly climb from drivers seat to the back of the truck, before walking the package up to your door.

The Amazon spokesperson called it a "win-win-win, for the company costs, the costs passed to the consumer in shipping, and the environment."


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## sloeffle (Dec 7, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Yeah, I watched that same story. Very cool. The truck was made by Tesla.


I’m glad I’m not the only one that still watches the news. 

I thought the beer delivery truck that they rode in, and talked to the driver was made by Volvo. I might be wrong though. They did talk about Tesla just delivering their first truck to market in the past few weeks.


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## Ashful (Dec 7, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> I’m glad I’m not the only one that still watches the news.
> 
> I thought the beer delivery truck that they rode in, and talked to the driver was made by Volvo. I might be wrong though. They did talk about Tesla just delivering their first truck to market in the past few weeks.


ah, you might be right.  I was working with the TV on in the background.  My ears perked up when I heard them talking about the Rivian EV's for Amazon, but I'll admit it didn't have my full attention.  I heard them mention Tesla delivering their first truck, but remember the footage of that was an all-white truck, while the truck they rode in was lime green.  Must've converged the two stories in my memory.


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## begreen (Dec 8, 2022)

Yes, the green one is a Volvo electric with 200 mile range. This is good for regional deliveries and it's no surprise that the drivers love them.


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## DBoon (Dec 11, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> This guy also drove down the DELMARVA peninsula. Which has almost no population, only dinky little roads, and yes, only one DCFC. I don't know anyone who drives from the NorthEast to the SouthEast down Delmarva.


And yet for a change of pace to visit my Mom a year ago in southeast Virginia (and avoid the nightmare that is I-95 from DC to Richmond), I took the Delmarva route and, shockingly, DC fast charged just fine, without issues! Sometimes it just takes a little bit of planning. 

As I tell people about my road-tripping experiences in an electric car, you can't be 1) anxious, 2) a bad planner, or 3) bad at math. Something like A Better Route Planner (ABRP) makes up for the third, but if you are both 1 and 2 as well, it might be too early for you to get an EV.


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## DBoon (Dec 11, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> The bolt or (and I will take some flack for this due to it’s slow charging)


The Bolt is a great deal, and aside from its slow DCFC and inefficient (electric resistance cabin heat), I don't see why anyone would dislike it. Frankly, I've charged from 10 to 80% in 1-1/4 hours and that is not crazy bad if you can time it for a bathroom break, food break, shopping break, etc. Regarding the cabin heat, my electric socks mitigate the worst of travel in January and February.


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## DBoon (Dec 11, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> Until some "newb" can drive cross country in one as easily as they do with ICE, it's not ready for prime time.


"Newbs" can drive their ICEs all they want and pay 3-4x as much for the privilege of not wanting to learn anything new or adjust to a less expensive (fuel-wise) reality. Fine with me. It's not too different from some people wanting to still have a land-line phone from Frontier or Verizon for $70/month when they can add it to their cable bill for $20/month or get something like Ooma for $5/month, or just do without completely if they have a mobile phone and can use that.


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## DBoon (Dec 11, 2022)

KBCraig said:


> Good luck selling that to people who only have a flip phone, if they have a cell phone at all.


Yeah, this deserves a good defense - maybe it's been made already and I'm just late to read the rest of the thread. 

I live in a rural area. To say that this area is economically challenged is probably an understatement. There are many people I know and interact with who don't have checking accounts. If you don't have a checking account, you probably don't have a credit card. Why no credit card? Probably because your credit is bad or non-existent, or maybe you are living on the edge financially and can't take the risk of getting behind on payments. Cash is king for many people in my area. So what phone do you have if you don't have a credit card? Probably a flip phone, a Trac phone from Walmart - a burner phone. You buy it with 800 minutes and when it runs out you get another phone (and number) since you don't have a credit card to add minutes to your phone. Oh, and you probably don't have internet at home either to go to a web site and use your non-existent credit card to add minutes to your Trac phone. 

So the fact that EVs require a mobile smart phone with an App to access and charge while traveling is f'ing stupid, in my mind, and this entire App-oriented ecosystem (which requires me to have something like 10-12 different charging apps on my phone) is completely stupid and created by people who don't live in the reality of probably 20-25% of the US. Sure, there are some DCFCs that take credit cards, but not many. Every gas pump takes credit cards - why every DCFC can't either is beyond the comprehension of at least 50% of people who live in this country (my opinion). And if you don't have a credit card, you can't feed $20 bills into the DCFC. So you are stuck. And then instead of telling people this whole story about how EVs aren't practical for you, you just talk about how EVs are impractical, or too expensive, or emit more whatever during their life, or are toxic to make, or whatever, because it is easier to say that to someone than to admit you don't have a smart phone or a credit card. 

So for those who live on the coasts and can't relate, maybe take a trip to someplace different or interact with people of a different socioeconomic status. You might be surprised by what you learn.


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## bholler (Dec 11, 2022)

DBoon said:


> Yeah, this deserves a good defense - maybe it's been made already and I'm just late to read the rest of the thread.
> 
> I live in a rural area. To say that this area is economically challenged is probably an understatement. There are many people I know and interact with who don't have checking accounts. If you don't have a checking account, you probably don't have a credit card. Why no credit card? Probably because your credit is bad or non-existent, or maybe you are living on the edge financially and can't take the risk of getting behind on payments. Cash is king for many people in my area. So what phone do you have if you don't have a credit card? Probably a flip phone, a Trac phone from Walmart - a burner phone. You buy it with 800 minutes and when it runs out you get another phone (and number) since you don't have a credit card to add minutes to your phone. Oh, and you probably don't have internet at home either to go to a web site and use your non-existent credit card to add minutes to your Trac phone.
> 
> ...


Uhhh there are allot of places on the coasts that are extremely economically challenged as well.  Not sure what difference that makes


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## Ashful (Dec 11, 2022)

DBoon said:


> Yeah, this deserves a good defense - maybe it's been made already and I'm just late to read the rest of the thread.
> 
> I live in a rural area. To say that this area is economically challenged is probably an understatement. There are many people I know and interact with who don't have checking accounts. If you don't have a checking account, you probably don't have a credit card. Why no credit card? Probably because your credit is bad or non-existent, or maybe you are living on the edge financially and can't take the risk of getting behind on payments. Cash is king for many people in my area. So what phone do you have if you don't have a credit card? Probably a flip phone, a Trac phone from Walmart - a burner phone. You buy it with 800 minutes and when it runs out you get another phone (and number) since you don't have a credit card to add minutes to your phone. Oh, and you probably don't have internet at home either to go to a web site and use your non-existent credit card to add minutes to your Trac phone.
> 
> ...


Some good points in here, but I'm not sure any of it is relevant to the post you quoted.  If you are living so close to an economic cliff that you have no access to a credit card or a checking account, then you're not even part of the new car buying economy.  App-based charging is hardly their primary barrier to entering this market.


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## stoveliker (Dec 11, 2022)

If you have no internet, then paying for a charge while traveling is secondary. The primary issue is FINDING a place where you could charge...


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## EbS-P (Dec 11, 2022)

All these new cars have a  a cellular modem.   Swiping for a charge isn’t something a Tesla owner does.  That’s the standard. The apps yeah they are necessary today but I doubt they will be soon.  As the car will do it all.


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## woodgeek (Dec 12, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> All these new cars have a  a cellular modem.   Swiping for a charge isn’t something a Tesla owner does.  That’s the standard. The apps yeah they are necessary today but I doubt they will be soon.  As the car will do it all.


Um, many legacy makers have tried to implement a 'plug to charge' system where the car autoconnects.  For years.  Nissan.  GM.  I think my car can do that on SOME DCFCs at this point, but again, GM wants to charge me a monthly fee (and maybe a per charge fee?) for the convenience.  Um, no.  I can open an app in 5 seconds rather than give GM a couple hundred dollars a year.

IMO I think the J1772 handshake should include some encrypted communication serial channel that can be used for authentication, but the IEEE didn't think of that years ago.  We need universal 'plug to charge' for L2s as well, esp if we are going to have them all over.

Also, every newer DCFC I have seen takes credit cards (irrelevant to @DBoon's concern) but I assume most of them are hacked and will steal said card.  At least that happened the ONE time I used a CC myself.   The EV fora confirm the high risk.


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## begreen (Dec 14, 2022)

EbS-P said:


> All these new cars have a  a cellular modem.   Swiping for a charge isn’t something a Tesla owner does.  That’s the standard. The apps yeah they are necessary today but I doubt they will be soon.  As the car will do it all.


Cell service is spotty and often carrier dependent when you get in the rural west. It's almost non-existent in the North Cascades and in large parts of Eastern Oregon.


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## EbS-P (Dec 14, 2022)

begreen said:


> Cell service is spotty and often carrier dependent when you get in the rural west. It's almost non-existent in the North Cascades and in large parts of Eastern Oregon.


An opportunity for infrastructure invest.


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## stoveliker (Dec 14, 2022)

But the chances of cell servie are likely higher at the charging station than in between those (however far they are apart) - and it was mentioned for the payment part of the charging, right?

Do establishments there also not accept any card payments? If it is not cash only, there has to be a connection from said establishments to the rest of the world, no?


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## woodgeek (Dec 14, 2022)

stoveliker said:


> But the chances of cell servie are likely higher at the charging station than in between those (however far they are apart) - and it was mentioned for the payment part of the charging, right?
> 
> Do establishments there also not accept any card payments? If it is not cash only, there has to be a connection from said establishments to the rest of the world, no?


Most DCFC I have seen take CC's.  But bc they are unattended, they are often hacked by criminals, so if you use them your CC # gets stolen.  The app does not have that problem.

And more to the point, I assume that DCFC station would need to have cell service.


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## EbS-P (Dec 14, 2022)

woodgeek said:


> Most DCFC I have seen take CC's.  But bc they are unattended, they are often hacked by criminals, so if you use them your CC # gets stolen.  The app does not have that problem.
> 
> And more to the point, I assume that DCFC station would need to have cell service.


I think the closed the last dial up modem isp.  
There aways will be more remote places and people who do not keep pace with the average Joe as far as technology goes.  Running your car out of battery will  happen just like running out of gas.  Mobile emergency dcfc is that a thing yet?   Sure you could level two charge off a generator/welder    I doubt the nice farmer/welder or RVer would sit there for an hour or two to get you enough juice to make to the nearest permanent DCFC.  And that’s if you have your mobile charger.  I’m pretty sure the road side assistance that came with my 3 rd party warranty covers rescue charging.


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## Ashful (Dec 18, 2022)




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## DBoon (Dec 22, 2022)

Ashful said:


> Some good points in here, but I'm not sure any of it is relevant to the post you quoted.


The point is that there are many viewpoints that assume it is easy to charge while traveling - it isn't if you don't have a smart phone that can run apps, a credit card to charge apps to, etc. Yeah, we are posting to hearth.com and we have computers and internet and what not. Not everybody does, and they don't necessarily lack smart phones, credit cards, etc. because they are technologically challenged and/or old. Sometimes they are just economically disadvantaged.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2022)

DBoon said:


> The point is that there are many viewpoints that assume it is easy to charge while traveling - it isn't if you don't have a smart phone that can run apps, a credit card to charge apps to, etc. Yeah, we are posting to hearth.com and we have computers and internet and what not. Not everybody does, and they don't necessarily lack smart phones, credit cards, etc. because they are technologically challenged and/or old. Sometimes they are just economically disadvantaged.


Oh, definitely good points, but so was the rest of my post that you had snipped there.


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## SpaceBus (Dec 23, 2022)

DBoon said:


> The point is that there are many viewpoints that assume it is easy to charge while traveling - it isn't if you don't have a smart phone that can run apps, a credit card to charge apps to, etc. Yeah, we are posting to hearth.com and we have computers and internet and what not. Not everybody does, and they don't necessarily lack smart phones, credit cards, etc. because they are technologically challenged and/or old. Sometimes they are just economically disadvantaged.


How many people that don't use smartphones or banks are going to be buying EVs? It's not like this demographic is lining up a dealerships to buy NEW ICE vehicles. This is an income inequality issue, not a tech savviness issue.


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## Ashful (Dec 23, 2022)

SpaceBus said:


> How many people that don't use smartphones or banks are going to be buying EVs? It's not like this demographic is lining up a dealerships to buy NEW ICE vehicles. This is an income inequality issue, not a tech savviness issue.


Exactly the point I was making back in post #117.  And it's not just "EV's" but "new BEV's", as it pertains to this discussion.  Auto makers care about maintaining high resale value, but their first priority is those customers buying new  cars, especially when it comes to prioritizing the development of any new  tech requiring high internal R&D dollars.  The economically depressed just don't factor into this conversation.


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## begreen (Dec 23, 2022)

People that don't use a bank or a leasing organization to buy a car are either self-financing or buying used. This is the same for ICE vehicles as it is for EVs.  The prices of EVs are coming down and that will continue. Many people will be buying them for local driving and home charging. This can be done without a cellphone.


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## peakbagger (Dec 24, 2022)

A BEV would have been great for my parents in place of their last two vehicles.  They no longer did long trips and usually planned trips a day or two in advance to avoid bad road conditions. 200 miles range would be fine Neither one of them used a cell phone but they could have plugged in at the house and been perfectly fine. Probably the biggest limitation with earlier BEVs is the temptation to improve the aerodynamics by tilting back the windshields. The early Volts and Priuses were head bashers, the owners eventually get used to it but someone like me catching a ride would have a tough time avoiding the A pillar. Even my Rav 4 Prime has the same issue, anyone riding in the front passenger seat usually has a tough time getting in it due to laid back A pillar. The Rav 4 is definitely more elderly friendly than a Volt or Prius.


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## begreen (Dec 26, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> The Rav 4 is definitely more elderly friendly than a Volt or Prius.


As a senior with occasional back issues, I have to agree. However, once I am in the car I still love to drive it. Still, as much as I like our Gen2 Volt, it may get replaced with a taller vehicle eventually.


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## KDubU (Jan 4, 2023)

Do not buy the Tesla Cybertruck….whoever designed it should be or has already been fired. First it’s fugly and second it’s not a practical pickup. I would steer towards the big manufacturers first such as Ford or Chevy/GMC.


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## EbS-P (Jan 4, 2023)

KDubU said:


> Do not buy the Tesla Cybertruck….whoever designed it should be or has already been fired. First it’s fugly and second it’s not a practical pickup. I would steer towards the big manufacturers first such as Ford or Chevy/GMC.


1.6 million pre orders. Say they sell 50% of those. They have probably already sold 3+ straight years of production…. It’s not a trucky truck.  It could have its own market segment with little competition.  GM trucks continue to score the worst for reliability.


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## sloeffle (Jan 4, 2023)

I didn't realize GM was ranked so low in reliability rankings by CR. They are probably still higher ranked than Tesla though.









						JD Power Dependability Survey Places Tesla Among Worst-Ranked Car Brands In US
					

J.D. Power, the automotive industry's longtime monitor of quality, included Tesla Inc (NASDAQ: TSLA) for the first time in its annual U.S. Vehicle Dependability Study. What Happened: Tesla didn't have a good showing in its debut. J.D. Power uses consumer survey data to report the number of...




					www.yahoo.com


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## EbS-P (Jan 4, 2023)

sloeffle said:


> I didn't realize GM was ranked so low in reliability rankings by CR. They are probably still higher than Tesla if Tesla would allow their customers to be part of the survey.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think if you take out software issues and fitment inside and out Tesla is probably average.  At some point I do believe they will address and focus on reliability.  After they have a solid handle on production issues.    

Yeah GM stinks.  Dodge isn’t far behind them.  You wouldn’t know it down here.


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## sloeffle (Jan 4, 2023)

Sandy Munro tore down and older Model 3 and he commented about how bad the panel fitment was. He tore down a newer Model 3 and said that the quality has gotten better. He's still not a fan of the latching design on the Tesla frunk though.

I realize that Hier Elon likes to balk normal trends in the auto industry but if he thinks his product is so great I don't understand why he wouldn't want it to be officially part of the JD Power rankings.

Yep, same here. People around here love their 80k diesel trucks....


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## boomfire (Jan 4, 2023)

Put me down for Cybertruck. All signs [Gigapress delivery and assembly line pictures] indicate this could be the year of CT release, fingers crossed.


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## woodgeek (Jan 4, 2023)

While Tesla doesn't advertise, I suspect that they do do focus groups.  So I am sure they knew the funky looking cyber truck would sell before they announced it.


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## Shank (Jan 4, 2023)

EbS-P said:


> I think if you take out software issues and fitment inside and out Tesla is probably average.  At some point I do believe they will address and focus on reliability.  After they have a solid handle on production issues.
> 
> Yeah GM stinks.  Dodge isn’t far behind them.  You wouldn’t know it down here.


Unfortunately I am convinced ALL brands have pretty horrible reliability.  I have seen major issues in most of the notoriously "reliable" brands within  5years/12k miles.

It is disgusting me to the point I don't even want to upgrade to something more reliable.  My daily driver is 13 years old/130k miles, wife's is 10 years old/278k miles and when I hear people losing transmissions, engines, head gaskets, steering racks, transfer cases, etc on far newer/lower mileage vehicles I question why even bother....


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## Ashful (Jan 4, 2023)

EbS-P said:


> It’s not a trucky truck.  It could have its own market segment with little competition.


Agreed.  It's closest competition, if a market segment were to be named around them, is probably something like the Chevy Avalanche.


EbS-P said:


> > GM trucks continue to score the worst for reliability.
> 
> 
> I think if you take out software issues and fitment inside and out Tesla is probably average.  At some point I do believe they will address and focus on reliability.


lol... well, yes.  And if you "take out" the things causing any of the big-3 points on their quality ratings, they would look better, as well!  Surely you meant something other than, "if we ignore their problems, then they don't have as many problems"?


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 4, 2023)

I agree that the cybertruck will not be for most "real truck" users, but fit well in the Honda Ridge Line,   Ford Maverick class.
Just from a functionality perspective,  and not looking at any EV from the major manufacturers, I like the Canoo.  Would buy it over a cybertruck 10 times out of 10.


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## Ashful (Jan 4, 2023)

Shank said:


> Unfortunately I am convinced ALL brands have pretty horrible reliability.  I have seen major issues in most of the notoriously "reliable" brands within  5years/12k miles.
> 
> It is disgusting me to the point I don't even want to upgrade to something more reliable.  My daily driver is 13 years old/130k miles, wife's is 10 years old/278k miles and when I hear people losing transmissions, engines, head gaskets, steering racks, transfer cases, etc on far newer/lower mileage vehicles I question why even bother....


You must be young?  I remember when people thought a car was nearly done at 70k miles... and that's within the lifetime (perhaps even the driving-age lifetime) of many members here.  Cars are infinitely more reliable today, it's really amazing how well they hold up, given the environment in which they're used and stored.

My last truck was a 2005 Ram 1500, and it had not a single component failure in 12 years.  In fact it only had one repair in that entire time, which was self-inflicted, I damaged a rubber CV joint boot while driving over a branch in a field.  My present truck is a 2015, purchased in 2017, and it has also had zero component failures.  Both are used to pull a trailer at least once per week, sometimes above their maximum tongue weight rating, and both are used to move obscene amounts of firewood for any DIY'er.

So what's so horrible and disgusting about that?  You should see the crap your parents and grandparents had to do, to keep their cars running!


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## Shank (Jan 4, 2023)

Ashful said:


> You must be young?  I remember when people thought a car was nearly done at 70k miles... and that's within the lifetime (perhaps even the driving-age lifetime) of many members here.  Cars are infinitely more reliable today, it's really amazing how well they hold up, given the environment in which they're used and stored.
> 
> My last truck was a 2005 Ram 1500, and it had not a single component failure in 12 years.  In fact it only had one repair in that entire time, which was self-inflicted, I damaged a rubber CV joint boot while driving over a branch in a field.  My present truck is a 2015, purchased in 2017, and it has also had zero component failures.  Both are used to pull a trailer at least once per week, sometimes above their maximum tongue weight rating, and both are used to move obscene amounts of firewood for any DIY'er.
> 
> So what's so horrible and disgusting about that?  You should see the crap your parents and grandparents had to do, to keep their cars running!


While young I have owned a fair amount of 70's and 80's vehicles and am familiar with the amount of maintenance associated with them.

Your point is well taken.  I believe in general vehicles are more reliable than they were, but there are some inherent flaws that almost every model has that should be addressed.  For instance in your (and every other in the segment V8), lifters do collapse.  While it's not a crazy percentage, it is certainly an issue.  I can't see spending $40k+ on something that might drop a lifter and send metal through the motor.

This is just one example (one that I have had happen on the 277k mile vehicle above and repaired myself).  My friend just lost a head gasket in his 100k mile Subaru.  Perhaps it's just the nature of things.


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 4, 2023)

Fathers 2021 Chevy 1500 had to have transmission electrical work.  Wife's 2021 Jeep Grand Cherokee L just had the transfer case replaced because of the control module.  Nephew had 3 sensors replaced on his 2022 F-150.  Just seems like electrical issues all from all from the pandemic period.  All manufacturers are having issues.  All were covered under warranty.  All 3 dealers those vehicles were repaired at can't keep up with warranty work.  I think its just going to be the norm for a few years.


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## Shank (Jan 4, 2023)

walhondingnashua said:


> Fathers 2021 Chevy 1500 had to have transmission electrical work.  Wife's 2021 Jeep Grand Cherokee L just had the transfer case replaced because of the control module.  Nephew had 3 sensors replaced on his 2022 F-150.  Just seems like electrical issues all from all from the pandemic period.  All manufacturers are having issues.  All were covered under warranty.  All 3 dealers those vehicles were repaired at can't keep up with warranty work.  I think its just going to be the norm for a few years.


-Sisters Grand Cherokee L has had the transmission plus a list of other things replaced (very low miles)
-Few years back bottom end went out in sister in law's Ford Escape (sub 30k miles)
-Chrysler sub 120k highway miles motor issue, awd system twice, steering rack (4 years old)
-Friends Subaru as stated - 6 years old 105k miles blew a head gasket
-Good chance my Duramax has blown head gasket('s) (ouch) at 96k miles.

To me these aren't just maintenance.  If I have to pull a motor on a car just barely out of warranty I would be very unhappy (especially if I didn't have it for many years prior).


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## begreen (Jan 4, 2023)

The subject of the post is BEV trucks. Move the ICE vehicle "they don't build them like they used to" observations to the Ingelnook.


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## boomfire (Jan 4, 2023)

Ram 1500 Revolution (BEV) is getting unveiled tomorrow at CES 2023 in Las Vegas at 5:30 p.m. EST









						Ram Set For Debut Of All-Electric Ram 1500 Revolution Concept At CES 2023
					

The new Ram 1500 Revolution Concept will prove to be a roadmap and glimpse into the future, showing how Ram will once again define the pickup truck segment. The move towards electrification supports Stellantis’ Dare Forward 2030 strategic plan, to lead the way the world moves by delivering...




					moparinsiders.com


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## KDubU (Jan 4, 2023)

walhondingnashua said:


> I agree that the cybertruck will not be for most "real truck" users, but fit well in the Honda Ridge Line,   Ford Maverick class.
> Just from a functionality perspective,  and not looking at any EV from the major manufacturers, I like the Canoo.  Would buy it over a cybertruck 10 times out of 10.


Funny you mention the Canoo, I sort of like the style on their pickup. They supposedly recently signed a contract with Walmart for their “van” version.

The Tesla cybertruck just is not nice looking IMHO. Don’t get me wrong I do think Tesla cars are nice but the truck not so much. As for pre-orders, there is a cult following for Tesla so good on them for having a market like that as it means sales regardless of issues. The Rivian is nice looking truck to me but the pricepoint is nuts.


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## EbS-P (Jan 4, 2023)

Ashful said:


> Agreed.  It's closest competition, if a market segment were to be named around them, is probably something like the Chevy Avalanche.
> 
> lol... well, yes.  And if you "take out" the things causing any of the big-3 points on their quality ratings, they would look better, as well!  Surely you meant something other than, "if we ignore their problems, then they don't have as many problems"?


Yeah and the Avalanche  sold so well the kept making it 😉    It’s a luxury SUV with a truck bed.  So the Rivian RT1,  (saw one in person and was unimpressed).  Maybe the Genesis brand will come come out with one?????


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## Ashful (Jan 4, 2023)

EbS-P said:


> Yeah and the Avalanche  sold so well the kept making it 😉    It’s a luxury SUV with a truck bed.  So the Rivian RT1,  (saw one in person and was unimpressed).  Maybe the Genesis brand will come come out with one?????


I think Tesla is going to suffer from some of the same bias that ran against the Avalanche.  While both may be very practical and capable vehicles for some segment of the market, namely weekend warriors who drive the thing to work or cart around family all week, both probably suffer some bias due to their outward appearance.  I have to admit, I had an immediate gut reaction against the Tesla pickup, nearly the same as I had against the Avalanche nearly 20 years ago.

The pickup truck market is driven as much (or more) by tradition and image, as true measurable practicality.


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## blades (Jan 4, 2023)

well i read all this likely twice now, at this point i am looking for a replacement unit as the 2nd Escape i had was rear ended -totaled- 2nd one in 4 years, on to trucks. I had very good time in each one with only one failure in the 2016 unit at around 125k miles, fuel vapor sensor.    I will not purchase another unibody unit regardless of the drive train.  Kinda leaves me with the pickups, electric pricing way out of my  ability-  wood be nice though as my commute is about 100miles /day .  right now i am driving my 03F250 6.0l diesel daily ( ouch) which has been reserved for actual truck type jobs for quite awhile.  While the extended fuel milage was nice on the shoebox the inability to grab various larger items was a pain. Never been a real fan of GM ( but I have had several over the years, cars) Ran Mini vans for awhile chrysler and ford, less issues with the fords- both were ok due to family size.
At the present time GM has valve train issues which lead to sudden complete failure. Ford and GM have electronic issues with their co-opped electronic  trannies, mostly electronic componet failures- seems to be a luck of the draw thing. Never been a dodge fan , units just didn't last and parts always seemed to be more expensive that the other 2 of the big 3 ( well what was the big 3). Maybe dodge has changed don't know.leaves me looking at 2019/20 F150 3.5l eco units. Side Note 155k on the 2L eco escape- tranny was starting to have what felt like clutch chatter.


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## begreen (Jan 4, 2023)

Ashful said:


> The pickup truck market is driven as much (or more) by tradition and image, as true measurable practicality.


This has changed. Some still use their trucks for actual work, but many don't.  In the past 20 yrs the truck has morphed into the family car with a short bed. It's a station wagon without the rear roof. Many of these boy toys will never see more than a trip to Ikea for a load. That's where I put the Tesla truck. It's more for image and bragging rights than actually carrying a load of cement blocks, gravel, plywood sheets, etc.


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 4, 2023)

All trucks have a pretty high price right now, especially since what begreen is saying is true.  The best "family car" me is my 4 door, full size pick up.  Not a more versatile vehicle on the road IMO.  Because of their price and still lack of range (with lack of range being the bigger issue), I think the private market will take a while on full EV trucks.  I think the biggest market for EV trucks is commercial.  The required range is known and full costs go away.  I believe, after rebates, the Lightning commercial model was under $35,000.  Amazon (rivian) and Walmart (Canoo) will help drive this market.


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## Ashful (Jan 4, 2023)

blades said:


> Never been a dodge fan , units just didn't last and parts always seemed to be more expensive that the other 2 of the big 3 ( well what was the big 3). Maybe dodge has changed don't know.


I was the same, grew up always thinking anything with a Chrysler (Plymouth/Dodge) badge was junk, and I still think that's mostly true of their products of that time (1975-1995).  But then GM and Ford both discontinued all manual transmissions with V8's in their light trucks, so I decided to give Dodge a first look in 2005.

Now, 17 years and four Dodge products later, I've come to know and love the modern Daimler Dodge and Fiat Dodge.  Having also owned several Mercedes products, the impact of the Daimler ownership is clear and overwhelming, they almost appear to have the same interior design teams.  Moreover, they seem to have really improved their quality.

Dodge still, and likely always will target the performance-minded young male market, which is going to mean they have to keep costs in check.  But one of many things I've learned over the least 20 years working as a design engineer, and automobile owner, is that reliability and perceived quality are completely unrelated.

My GM's had heavier hubs, larger bolt patterns with more lugs, heavier control arms, even heavier gauge sheet metal in the body and bed floor... but broke down constantly.  Meanwhile, the Dodge that replaced my last Chevy was lighter and cheaper in so many ways, but infinitely more reliable.  Go figure...

No vehicle is perfect, and no brand owes anything to it's legacy, you can't determine the quality of today's Ford by one designed and built 20 years ago by a completely different team and management.  But at least right now, I'll probably continue buying Dodge products, as their local dealer has been very good to us.  I have two Dodge's and one Ram in the garage right now (2015, 2016, 2020).


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## ABMax24 (Jan 5, 2023)

Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?

We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.


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## Ashful (Jan 5, 2023)

ABMax24 said:


> Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?
> 
> We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.


I guess it'd be ironic if they start adding liquid fuel sources to BEV's for the sole purpose of cold-weather heating.  Gasoline, anyone?  LP?

@woodgeek's probably going to run the efficiency numbers on this, before I'm back at my computer tomorrow morning, but I suppose it wouldn't be a terrible solution for getting those in the Arctic onto BEV's.  Much like your homes ASHP switches to propane or nat.gas auxiliary when temps plummet.


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## woodgeek (Jan 5, 2023)

ABMax24 said:


> Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?
> 
> We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.


Yup.  BEVs require more energy (= lower range) in cold weather, and this effect becomes significant in REAL cold.

I have heard the Tesla has 'double pane' windows... but don't know much about that.  I assume that is for higher efficiency and range due to reduced cabin HVAC, but I don't know.

That, plus insulating the body panels would do a lot.

A few BEVs have heat pumps for improved cold weather performance, but no surprise, I have never seen how much good they do at -20 to -30 °C.

Us old-school (think 20 kWh Nissan LEAF) BEV drivers got used to winter driving around with the cabin heater off with the heated seats and heated steering wheel cranked.  And just enough fresh air from outside to keep the windows from fogging up.  

I have not seen any BEVs sold with a 'cold weather' package, but I suppose that is just a matter of time.

There is a well known EV YouTuber in Norway, Bjorn Nyland.  As we say, Oslo has a climate similar to Boston, not that cold.  But this guy likes to test drive EVs up to the Arctic circle, and then sleeps in them overnight at -30°C before driving home.  He has bricked a few cars that way.    

One example:


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## peakbagger (Jan 5, 2023)

Toyota sells a cold weather  package for the Rav 4 Prime in Canada. I think its a block heater. They all come with laminated front and siide glass to reduce road noise and most come with a heated strip on the bottom of the windshield to defrost the wiper blades. I do not have a remote start on my Prime but I do have a preheat mode on the key fob that allows me the remotely turn on the heat pump. The battery also has a heater in it for cold weather as Lithium chemistries do not like cold temps. Those who care to pay Toyota for access on their cell phone can program a warm up time. Done manually it works pretty well. The HVAC system default is to always bring in fresh air so when I get in it, I  push the button to put it in recirc mode. If its 20 F or below the engine usually kicks on and then I get plenty of heat in a few minutes. I try not to use the seat heaters as they are strictly electrical resistance, the same with the steering wheel heater but both quite effective. 

I had a friend with a VW with only one good heater box and the heater channels were rusted out. He had an industrial hose hooked to the one good heater box that ran out under the rear seat and sat between the two front seats. If he needed to defrost he just held the hose up to the window.


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## woodgeek (Jan 5, 2023)

peakbagger said:


> Toyota sells a cold weather  package for the Rav 4 Prime in Canada. I think its a block heater. They all come with laminated front and siide glass to reduce road noise and most come with a heated strip on the bottom of the windshield to defrost the wiper blades. I do not have a remote start on my Prime but I do have a preheat mode on the key fob that allows me the remotely turn on the heat pump. The battery also has a heater in it for cold weather as Lithium chemistries do not like cold temps. Those who care to pay Toyota for access on their cell phone can program a warm up time. Done manually it works pretty well. The HVAC system default is to always bring in fresh air so when I get in it, I  push the button to put it in recirc mode. If its 20 F or below the engine usually kicks on and then I get plenty of heat in a few minutes. I try not to use the seat heaters as they are strictly electrical resistance, the same with the steering wheel heater but both quite effective.
> 
> I had a friend with a VW with only one good heater box and the heater channels were rusted out. He had an industrial hose hooked to the one good heater box that ran out under the rear seat and sat between the two front seats. If he needed to defrost he just held the hose up to the window.



The seat heaters are about 50-80W each, the wheel heater even less.  The cabin heater is 2-4 kW.  Using the seat heaters extends range even if you just bump down the cabin temp a couple degrees.

All EVs DO come with some battery heater (even the LEAF).  But most chemistries don't get damaged until they get to below -5°F or less.  But the cars all have a self-preservation and heating feature to avoid that fate.


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## EbS-P (Jan 5, 2023)

ABMax24 said:


> Here's a thought, what is being done in new EVs to insulate the passenger compartment from the elements?
> 
> We did quite a bit of driving to see family over Christmas much of the temperatures were below -20c down to -30c. My wife's diesel Colorado struggles to keep the cab warm at -30 when cruising down the highway at 120km/h. The airflow over the windows just strips the heat from the cab, and that's with an ICE heating the cab with it's waste heat. With an EV a heat pump isn't effective in those temps, and resistive electric heat could cut the range in half. Obviously lowering the cab temp is an option, but at some point you still need heat to keep the windows defrosted.


Nothing. They are adding more glass. There is not much market for extreme cold weather.  I guess adding bubble wrap to windows and extra  insulation to the floor is something you could do.


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## bholler (Jan 5, 2023)

Shank said:


> While young I have owned a fair amount of 70's and 80's vehicles and am familiar with the amount of maintenance associated with them.
> 
> Your point is well taken.  I believe in general vehicles are more reliable than they were, but there are some inherent flaws that almost every model has that should be addressed.  For instance in your (and every other in the segment V8), lifters do collapse.  While it's not a crazy percentage, it is certainly an issue.  I can't see spending $40k+ on something that might drop a lifter and send metal through the motor.
> 
> This is just one example (one that I have had happen on the 277k mile vehicle above and repaired myself).  My friend just lost a head gasket in his 100k mile Subaru.  Perhaps it's just the nature of things.


Anyone buying a Subaru should know their head gaskets need done around 100k.  It's been that way for years now.   I think it's rediculous but a very well known issue


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## Ashful (Jan 5, 2023)

bholler said:


> Anyone buying a Subaru should know their head gaskets need done around 100k.  It's been that way for years now.   I think it's rediculous but a very well known issue


Before spending many years as an engineering / R&D manager, I used to think everything should be built so it couldn't fail.  But the only people who can afford to fund that are NASA and Lockheed, due to the testing and ECN's required to move in that direction.  There's always going to be a practical decision of whether it's cheaper to manage and repair around a known MTTF, versus designing it out.

Subaru obviously has the engineering wherewithal to design this problem out, if that was the more sensible choice, based on market pressures and profit.  The fact that they have not is more an indication of what the market demands than anything else, in terms of upfront cost vs. TOC, or other factors.  It's very likely there's a number of other factors and design decisions which would be impacted by whatever change is required to fully resolve the issue, perhaps even leading to performance or reliability losses elsewhere, if not just increased cost and schedule delays.

Put otherwise, how many new car buyers would be willing to pay much more for the same Subaru, to avoid that scheduled head gasket replacement at 100k miles, if that's what it took?


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## bholler (Jan 5, 2023)

Ashful said:


> Before spending many years as an engineering / R&D manager, I used to think everything should be built so it couldn't fail.  But the only people who can afford to fund that are NASA and Lockheed, due to the testing and ECN's required to move in that direction.  There's always going to be a practical decision of whether it's cheaper to manage and repair around a known MTTF, versus designing it out.
> 
> Subaru obviously has the engineering wherewithal to design this problem out, if that was the more sensible choice, based on market pressures and profit.  The fact that they have not is more an indication of what the market demands than anything else, in terms of upfront cost vs. TOC, or other factors.  It's very likely there's a number of other factors and design decisions which would be impacted by whatever change is required to fully resolve the issue, perhaps even leading to performance or reliability losses elsewhere, if not just increased cost and schedule delays.
> 
> Put otherwise, how many new car buyers would be willing to pay much more for the same Subaru, to avoid that scheduled head gasket replacement at 100k miles, if that's what it took?


Oh I agree.   The problem I have with it is the really high resale value of used Subarus with a known issue that will require pulling the motor to replace head gaskets.    If it was like a normal online 4 or v motor where they could be done in the car it would be different


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## Shank (Jan 5, 2023)

Ashful said:


> Before spending many years as an engineering / R&D manager, I used to think everything should be built so it couldn't fail.  But the only people who can afford to fund that are NASA and Lockheed, due to the testing and ECN's required to move in that direction.  There's always going to be a practical decision of whether it's cheaper to manage and repair around a known MTTF, versus designing it out.
> 
> Subaru obviously has the engineering wherewithal to design this problem out, if that was the more sensible choice, based on market pressures and profit.  The fact that they have not is more an indication of what the market demands than anything else, in terms of upfront cost vs. TOC, or other factors.  It's very likely there's a number of other factors and design decisions which would be impacted by whatever change is required to fully resolve the issue, perhaps even leading to performance or reliability losses elsewhere, if not just increased cost and schedule delays.
> 
> Put otherwise, how many new car buyers would be willing to pay much more for the same Subaru, to avoid that scheduled head gasket replacement at 100k miles, if that's what it took?


Interesting point, and I know this is starting to leave the BEV topic (but really not, guaranteed there are known flaws in plenty of electric vehicles that could be resolved and haven't for the same reasons).

I suppose the average car buyer might not be willing, but myself personally, I would pay a fair amount to have a relatively fatal flaw corrected before I took ownership, but as I currently see expenses going I would like to drive every new vehicle at least 150k miles.  Being able to do repairs myself also is almost an inconvenience because I see a quote then almost always decide to repair it myself.

I do have some similar reservations (on top of some inconveniences) with electric vehicles.  I do see some potential major upsides as well.


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## Ashful (Jan 5, 2023)

It will be interesting to see how DIY'ers handle the BEV's, as they become more dominant.  We're sure to see the same dichotomy observed 40 years ago, when hotrodders born in the 1930's were frustrated they couldn't "simply" retune the carburetor on their 1980's EFI vehicles.  Looking back, how many of today's young DIY'ers really think a carburetor is "simple", versus reading codes and replacing sensors?

It's very likely that our kids will be all over the BEV's, modding, repairing and finding them very easy to work on at home, by comparison to what we're driving today.


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## Shank (Jan 5, 2023)

Ashful said:


> It will be interesting to see how DIY'ers handle the BEV's, as they become more dominant.  We're sure to see the same dichotomy observed 40 years ago, when hotrodders born in the 1930's were frustrated they couldn't "simply" retune the carburetor on their 1980's EFI vehicles.  Looking back, how many of today's young DIY'ers really think a carburetor is "simple", versus reading codes and replacing sensors?
> 
> It's very likely that our kids will be all over the BEV's, modding, repairing and finding them very easy to work on at home, by comparison to what we're driving today.



Having dealt with both I suppose it is somewhat of a wash to me between working on carbureted engines or fuel injected but I am certainly too young to be primarily dealing with a carbureted vehicle.

You do bring up a valid point that is also somewhat of a concern to me.  I like the associated savings of doing my own maintenance even though I despise doing the work and I am unsure how much (or little) I will be able to do on an electric vehicle.  I am quite computer literate and have decent electrical skills but I don't know how this will play in.

I have actually considered toying with a used electric vehicle or building something just to learn.


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## sloeffle (Jan 5, 2023)

Have the Japanese and Germans pretty much given up on building a BEV truck ?


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## EbS-P (Jan 5, 2023)

Ashful said:


> It will be interesting to see how DIY'ers handle the BEV's, as they become more dominant.  We're sure to see the same dichotomy observed 40 years ago, when hotrodders born in the 1930's were frustrated they couldn't "simply" retune the carburetor on their 1980's EFI vehicles.  Looking back, how many of today's young DIY'ers really think a carburetor is "simple", versus reading codes and replacing sensors?
> 
> It's very likely that our kids will be all over the BEV's, modding, repairing and finding them very easy to work on at home, by comparison to what we're driving today.


So high voltage insulated tools will be as common as sockets in a tool box??


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## ABMax24 (Jan 5, 2023)

Ashful said:


> I guess it'd be ironic if they start adding liquid fuel sources to BEV's for the sole purpose of cold-weather heating.  Gasoline, anyone?  LP?
> 
> @woodgeek's probably going to run the efficiency numbers on this, before I'm back at my computer tomorrow morning, but I suppose it wouldn't be a terrible solution for getting those in the Arctic onto BEV's.  Much like your homes ASHP switches to propane or nat.gas auxiliary when temps plummet.



That's kinda what I was thinking. This is where a PHEV comes in handy, because the engine still heats the cab. My parents just bought a Rav 4 hybrid (not the prime) and it works good for heat. Issue is all fuel economy benefit is lost in the cold, on the highway they got the same mileage we did in the Colorado.

I think I have a picture of a car with a mini wood stove in the trunk, I'll have to find it and add it to the unsafe installs thread.

We don't run ASHP's up here, the transition from summer to winter is to abrupt to justify their cost, you'd be lucky to get a month's use per year out of one.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 5, 2023)

Cars today are so reliable, we find anything to nit pick. Old cars needed valve adjustments and rarely made it past ten years.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 5, 2023)

bholler said:


> Anyone buying a Subaru should know their head gaskets need done around 100k.  It's been that way for years now.   I think it's rediculous but a very well known issue


This is because the block is positively charged and will slowly degrade the coolant until it starts eating the gaskets. If you keep up on changing the fluids they tend to last longer. However, a boxer engine will never be as reliable as an inline engine due to a variety of factors, and a big reason why I'll probably never own one.


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 5, 2023)

Shank said:


> Having dealt with both I suppose it is somewhat of a wash to me between working on carbureted engines or fuel injected but I am certainly too young to be primarily dealing with a carbureted vehicle.
> 
> You do bring up a valid point that is also somewhat of a concern to me.  I like the associated savings of doing my own maintenance even though I despise doing the work and I am unsure how much (or little) I will be able to do on an electric vehicle.  I am quite computer literate and have decent electrical skills but I don't know how this will play in.
> 
> I have actually considered toying with a used electric vehicle or building something just to learn.


There's a guy that has a channel on youtube that "works up" used teslas, so some people are already starting.  the performance output of electric compared to gas should have people that just want to go fast excited.
On the topic of repair, I read an article (but cannot remember from where) that worked out the numbers on things like oil changes, repair costs for common issues, etc. along with fuel costs compared to charging.   In general, a comparison of cost of ownership.  I believe the comparison was with a Ford XLT F-150 compared to an XLT Ligthning.  The numbers worked out in the favor of the Lightning.


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## bholler (Jan 5, 2023)

walhondingnashua said:


> There's a guy that has a channel on youtube that "works up" used teslas, so some people are already starting.  the performance output of electric compared to gas should have people that just want to go fast excited.
> On the topic of repair, I read an article (but cannot remember from where) that worked out the numbers on things like oil changes, repair costs for common issues, etc. along with fuel costs compared to charging.   In general, a comparison of cost of ownership.  I believe the comparison was with a Ford XLT F-150 compared to an XLT Ligthning.  The numbers worked out in the favor of the Lightning.


I don't doubt that is true as long as there aren't other unforseen maintenance costs with the EV


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 5, 2023)

It did state that when something did go wrong with the EV, there's not fixing it.  Things like having to completely replace an electric motor or batteries, and the price is very high on those.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 5, 2023)

walhondingnashua said:


> It did state that when something did go wrong with the EV, there's not fixing it.  Things like having to completely replace an electric motor or batteries, and the price is very high on those.


Many times ICE and transmissions are totally replaced rather than rebuilt these days


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## walhondingnashua (Jan 5, 2023)

SpaceBus said:


> Many times ICE and transmissions are totally replaced rather than rebuilt these days


Very good point... and those are not cheap either.  A check mark on the side of the EV.


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## EbS-P (Jan 5, 2023)

Eventually you will see used parts, and third party parts for EVs.  Probably not third party batteries any time soon.  But drive units sure.   All these teslas that get a major fender bender get totaled.   Those parts are going into some supply chain somewhere.


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## blades (Jan 6, 2023)

Had a vw beetle back in the mid 70's, yep heat tubes rotted out used a 12v heater fan assemble as a window defroster. taught the ex how to drive stick in that.  It never died on me cold or hot. got from a younger guy for cheap, he had put over sized tires in the back with flared out fenders, fun in the snow  sending rooster tails up. Never needed to wrench on it unlike my 70 skylark or my 64 rocket 88 which was my trailer dragger (40x  ci eng.)


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## begreen (Jan 6, 2023)

And now RAM joins the ring. 








						CES 2023: Ram electric pickup joins crowded field next year
					

DETROIT (AP) — When a futuristic-looking electric Ram pickup truck goes on sale next year, it will hardly be the first in line. By then, at least seven EV competitors are scheduled to be on sale, all of them vying for a share of the huge full-size truck market that now includes the three...




					apnews.com


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## boomfire (Jan 6, 2023)




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## begreen (Jan 6, 2023)

walhondingnashua said:


> It did state that when something did go wrong with the EV, there's not fixing it.  Things like having to completely replace an electric motor or batteries, and the price is very high on those.


Electric vehicles in general are definitely lower maintenance. The most common servicing is tire rotation and battery system coolant check. The latter gets flushed and replaced around the 5yr or 100k mile mark. With regenerative braking the brakes may last over 100,000 miles. Actually, in the east, with road salting, the rear brake rotors often need to be replaced due to rusting with their low usage. There are no oil changes or ignition system components. The steering system is electric, not hydraulic. There's no exhaust system. 

Although failures in big components are uncommon and most companies have long drivetrain warranties for these components. they can happen. It's actually smaller failures that can be most annoying and at times exasperating, like when the supply chain for electronics is disrupted. Component failures like the BECM or coolant pump system can brick the car/truck in spite of the prime components like the battery and motor(s) being fine.  It's a rough world out there for electronics. They need to withstand wide temperature ranges, grid system spikes, RF interference, etc. and be protected from moisture, corrosion, shock, etc. And, if parts are coming from overseas, supply chain disruptions can make a relatively quick fix take months. Though, FWIW, this can affect ICE vehicles as well.


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## tlc1976 (Jan 6, 2023)

begreen said:


> Electric vehicles in general are definitely lower maintenance. The most common servicing is tire rotation and battery system coolant check. The latter gets flushed and replaced around the 5yr or 100k mile mark. With regenerative braking the brakes may last over 100,000 miles. Actually, in the east, with road salting, the rear brake rotors often need to be replaced due to rusting with their low usage. There are no oil changes or ignition system components. The steering system is electric, not hydraulic. There's no exhaust system.
> 
> Although failures in big components are uncommon and most companies have long drivetrain warranties for these components. they can happen. It's actually smaller failures that can be most annoying and at times exasperating, like when the supply chain for electronics is disrupted. Component failures like the BECM or coolant pump system can brick the car/truck in spite of the prime components like the battery and motor(s) being fine.  It's a rough world out there for electronics. They need to withstand wide temperature ranges, grid system spikes, RF interference, etc. and be protected from moisture, corrosion, shock, etc. And, if parts are coming from overseas, supply chain disruptions can make a relatively quick fix take months. Though, FWIW, this can affect ICE vehicles as well.



In a case of a component failure despite motor and battery being fine, do EVs have a limp home mode? So one can slowly get home, to a shop, or get to safety? Even if it is some jumpers under the hood. In an ICE vehicle, unless it’s one of a few key components dead, there are usually things I can do to get myself home.


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## begreen (Jan 6, 2023)

tlc1976 said:


> In a case of a component failure despite motor and battery being fine, do EVs have a limp home mode? So one can slowly get home, to a shop, or get to safety? Even if it is some jumpers under the hood. In an ICE vehicle, unless it’s one of a few key components dead, there are usually things I can do to get myself home.


In some cases yes, but it depends on the nature of the failure.

One can only jump the 12v battery, not the 400+v main battery. AAA and others are starting to have mobile charging stations so in some cases that may be an option.


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## EbS-P (Jan 6, 2023)

tlc1976 said:


> In a case of a component failure despite motor and battery being fine, do EVs have a limp home mode? So one can slowly get home, to a shop, or get to safety? Even if it is some jumpers under the hood. In an ICE vehicle, unless it’s one of a few key components dead, there are usually things I can do to get myself home.


There are lots of stories where owners had 30 seconds warning before complete shutdown.  Teslas don’t even have a spare tire.


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## Ashful (Jan 6, 2023)

EbS-P said:


> Teslas don’t even have a spare tire.


Neither does my ICE.  If I recall, there's a 12V battery inflator and a some fancy Mopar-brand equivalent of fix-a-flat where the spare tire should be.  I believe the tires are run flat design, so it appears to be a bit of a belt atop suspenders.  I believe the choice to not provide a spare is based upon it having a posi-traction rear differential, and concerns that some customers may be too stupid or lazy to move the spare to a front hub if the flat occurs on the rear.

But I wonder what reason Tesla could have for not providing a spare?  Surely the electronics could be set to "spare tire mode" to account of the difference in wheel rotational speed, due to a smaller spare.


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## begreen (Jan 6, 2023)

It's become a common trend. Not having a spare increases user available volume and reduces the cost of manufacture.


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## Ashful (Jan 6, 2023)

begreen said:


> It's become a common trend. Not having a spare increases user available volume and reduces the cost of manufacture.


A lot of things have changed for the better, from each generation to the next.  But at the same time, I do think we've lost something when the rite of passage that was once learning how to change to a spare tire becomes only knowing how to renew your AAA membership.

My kids will still learn how to change a tire, even if I have to show them on an antique car!


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## begreen (Jan 6, 2023)

I feel this way about manual transmissions. There is something valuable about the hand/mind/machine connection that I miss. They are history with EVs.

The very first time I drove, I fixed a flat tire first. My sister had been babysitting. When the wife dropped her off she found she had a flat tire. It was night so hubby just picked her up and said he'd deal with the flat the next day after work. I was 13 and had nothing else to do on that next summer day, so I checked and saw the keys were still in the car. (very quiet neighborhood). I then checked the spare and saw it was in good shape so I elected to change the tire. Although I had never done this before, I had watched my dad do it and decided I could handle it. The switch went as planned, no surprises. Then I thought well, it would be best to move the car off the road. Although I had never driven by myself I had been mentally practicing shifting in my dad's old truck that was parked nearby for a couple of years. That practice paid off. I drove the Valiant around the block and parked it nicely. Pretty cheeky of me looking back, but fortunately all was well and the people were delighted to see the flat exchanged.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 6, 2023)

I too lament the demise of manual transmissions in new cars. I've only owned one vehicle with an automatic transmission out of nearly a dozen.


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## tlc1976 (Jan 6, 2023)

I would prefer a manual transmission, but I can see where if there’s not enough demand, it’s not worth the additional engineering and tooling.

I do think it’s silly for any car to not come with a jack and spare, or at least be able to offer it. But I suppose it’s not just cost cutting, but removing the liability if someone isn’t careful and gets hurt or killed.

I always make sure to have a proper jack, wrench, and spare. Whether the car came with it or not.


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## Ashful (Jan 6, 2023)

tlc1976 said:


> I would prefer a manual transmission, but I can see where if there’s not enough demand, it’s not worth the additional engineering and tooling.


Not my area of expertise, but from what I've heard, the engineering and tooling is not really the primary obstacle.  In some cases, car platforms originally developed and safety and emissions tested for auto only, are later re-used in an application where customer demand and engineering or marketing desire might want to push toward optional manual transmission, but the costs of re-doing tests which are already paid and completed to an older standard can be prohibitive to the release of new models that might not yield enough added demand for the manual option.

Back before safety and emissions testing became such a large fraction of the development cost, it was indeed very common to see both auto and manual always available.  There was also more demand for manual, because the auto transmissions were pretty crappy on both performance and reliability, by today's standards.



tlc1976 said:


> I do think it’s silly for any car to not come with a jack and spare, or at least be able to offer it. But I suppose it’s not just cost cutting, but removing the liability if someone isn’t careful and gets hurt or killed.


Never considered that, but it may be a factor.  Of course, most still come with a jack and a spare, so it can be that alone.  I also don't buy the cost thing as a sole argument, as the 12V compressor and other accessories they stuck in the spot where I should have a spare doesn't look much cheaper than a spare donut.  I think it has a lot to do with traction control electronics, occasionally posi traction or limited slip differentials, and the increased commonality of run-flat tires.


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## SpaceBus (Saturday at 5:11 AM)

There is almost zero demand for manual transmissions, so why waste the money on development? As much as I love manuals, some of the new automatic transmissions ( particularly the ZF 8sp with torque converter used by FCa and BMW) are just really good. I also really like a well done DCT in a light weight sports car. The DCT used in the now defunct Mitsu Evo X was 👌


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## Ashful (Saturday at 8:13 AM)

I’ve owned three ZF8’s in the last six years.  Excellent transmissions, especially performance variants (eg. SRT cars with ZF 8HP90).  But I’d still prefer rowing gears manually, even knowing the auto has better performance.  I’m not racing (anymore), and clutch will always beat auto for fun factor.  I also prefer manual trucks in bad weather, I feel more confident in knowing what’s happening between my tires and the pavement with a clutch and gearbox.


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## EbS-P (Saturday at 8:42 AM)

Ashful said:


> I’ve owned three ZF8’s in the last six years.  Excellent transmissions, especially performance variants (eg. SRT cars with ZF 8HP90).  But I’d still prefer rowing gears manually, even knowing the auto has better performance.  I’m not racing (anymore), and clutch will always beat auto for fun factor.  I also prefer manual trucks in bad weather, I feel more confident in knowing what’s happening between my tires and the pavement with a clutch and gearbox.


With traction control I’m more confident with an auto above 20 mph.  It will react much faster than I ever will.  

After you dive an EV for (even Toyotas CVT hybrid) for more than a month you find gears, auto or manual, as pointless, unnecessary, crude and distracting to the driving experience.   

Are run flats still a thing?   If you don’t have a spare you don’t need a Jack.  I have been known to take long road trips with both a temp spare and a full-size. I look ridiculous with a full size spare hanging off the back of my mini van.  And I’ve never needed it on the road trips.


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## SpaceBus (Saturday at 1:01 PM)

Ashful said:


> I’ve owned three ZF8’s in the last six years.  Excellent transmissions, especially performance variants (eg. SRT cars with ZF 8HP90).  But I’d still prefer rowing gears manually, even knowing the auto has better performance.  I’m not racing (anymore), and clutch will always beat auto for fun factor.  I also prefer manual trucks in bad weather, I feel more confident in knowing what’s happening between my tires and the pavement with a clutch and gearbox.


I agree, torque converters are spooky in slippery conditions. I also prefer wheeling with a manual, especially when there's a lot of torque available. That ZF8 is so good, I really don't miss a manual when driving it. Most of my experience was behind the wheel of a 2015 (?) BMW 335i M-Sport that ran 13's in the 1/4, but got 35 MPG highway. It was super fun with Hoosier slicks (purple crack) on an autocross course at the Corvette museum. 



EbS-P said:


> With traction control I’m more confident with an auto above 20 mph.  It will react much faster than I ever will.
> 
> After you dive an EV for (even Toyotas CVT hybrid) for more than a month you find gears, auto or manual, as pointless, unnecessary, crude and distracting to the driving experience.
> 
> Are run flats still a thing?   If you don’t have a spare you don’t need a Jack.  I have been known to take long road trips with both a temp spare and a full-size. I look ridiculous with a full size spare hanging off the back of my mini van.  And I’ve never needed it on the road trips.



The practical benefits of a CVT, particularly for low gearing, are numerous, but I can't stand driving one. Having the engine at the same RPM all the time is not enjoyable. I have limited CVT experience, mainly in a Nissan Sentra rental and test driving a Nissan Juke NISMO RS AWD. Having one in a sporty car should be a crime, I put my foot down in that Juke NISMO and it took what felt like forever to pick a ratio and accelerate.


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## boomfire (Saturday at 1:03 PM)

Our ioniq 5 doesnt come with a spare as well. Had a flat tire last month,  there was a huge gash. it was unfixable with the crappy tire mobility kit that came with car.   

We live in middle of nowhere, called hyundai and a vehicle service (we a separate program that we were enrolled into), both said a 2-4 Hour window for pickup and drop off to nearest Hyundai dealer (1 hour away). So she was pretty much stranded. But luckily it happened near by a tireshop, wife walked in there and asked for help, guys there were nice enough to come and assess the situation. Swapped temporarily with a spare tire and asked her to drive slowly to the shop, They didnt have any tires that i was looking for, I ordered from tirerack and they delivered overnight. 3 hours of my time and 1 Day of hers wasted.

Personally, If i lived in an urban area like i used to, it would not have been much of an issue, but living in rural, i would prefer a spare tire. i am looking for a spare rim now, just to have as a backup.


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## EbS-P (Saturday at 2:08 PM)

boomfire said:


> Our ioniq 5 doesnt come with a spare as well. Had a flat tire last month,  there was a huge gash. it was unfixable with the crappy tire mobility kit that came with car.
> 
> We live in middle of nowhere, called hyundai and a vehicle service (we a separate program that we were enrolled into), both said a 2-4 Hour window for pickup and drop off to nearest Hyundai dealer (1 hour away). So she was pretty much stranded. But luckily it happened near by a tireshop, wife walked in there and asked for help, guys there were nice enough to come and assess the situation. Swapped temporarily with a spare tire and asked her to drive slowly to the shop, They didnt have any tires that i was looking for, I ordered from tirerack and they delivered overnight. 3 hours of my time and 1 Day of hers wasted.
> 
> Personally, If i lived in an urban area like i used to, it would not have been much of an issue, but living in rural, i would prefer a spare tire. i am looking for a spare rim now, just to have as a backup.


The spare even if not on the car all the time Makes lots of sense.


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## boomfire (Saturday at 2:11 PM)

EbS-P said:


> The spare even if not on the car all the time Makes lots of sense.



Yep thats the idea, If going on a long road trip, it will go along. Local (Over 80%) driving It will stay home.


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## Ashful (Saturday at 2:40 PM)

EbS-P said:


> Are run flats still a thing?


They are, but ironically, not in the sizes used by what seems to be the cars often shipping sans spare tire.  For example, my OEM tire brand and model has a run-flat variant, but not in the size used on this car. 

Just happened to be changing oil today, a very non-BEV thing to do, but it reminded me of this discussion on Tesla‘s lacking spare tires.   Here’s what’s under my trunk floor, in a 2016 ICE sport sedan.  I have friends and family with EV’s from BMW, Tesla, and Volvo, and will try to find out what they all have.


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## SpaceBus (Saturday at 2:55 PM)

Ashful said:


> They are, but ironically, not in the sizes used by what seems to be the cars often shipping sans spare tire.  For example, my OEM tire brand and model has a run-flat variant, but not in the size used on this car.
> 
> Just happened to be changing oil today, a very non-BEV thing to do, but it reminded me of this discussion on Tesla‘s lacking spare tires.   Here’s what’s under my trunk floor, in a 2016 ICE sport sedan.  I have friends and family with EV’s from BMW, Tesla, and Volvo, and will try to find out what they all have.
> 
> View attachment 307134


Looks just like my old 2010 SRT8 Challenger. Once at the drag strip I accidentally refilled my tires with the flat fixer goop instead of plain air. I feel bad for the tire tech that had to take off those OEM sized rears and replace them with 295's!


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## peakbagger (Saturday at 3:52 PM)

Living up in in the woods, a spare even if its temp a spare is really needed. Its a tourist area and folks are always getting flats usually on weekends and finding a tire of the right size is not guaranteed. It is very unlikely they will find an exact match.


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## EbS-P (Saturday at 4:06 PM)

boomfire said:


> Yep thats the idea, If going on a long road trip, it will go along. Local (Over 80%) driving It will stay home.





peakbagger said:


> Living up in in the woods, a spare even if its temp a spare is really needed. Its a tourist area and folks are always getting flats usually on weekends and finding a tire of the right size is not guaranteed. It is very unlikely they will find an exact match.


And I like to meet the Tesla engineers responsible for choosing a rear tire that won’t fit up front on the model X.  20x9 and 265 up front and 20x9.5 and 275 on the rear.   Yep the suspension clearance is that tight.

Fonts will fit the rear though.


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## woodgeek (Saturday at 5:27 PM)

Part of the no spare thing is EPA efficiency targets.  Thanks Obama.

If you are trying to get a vehicle to some mpg, dropping the weight of the spare, jack and lug wrench can get you close to a percent, at negative cost to the manufacturer.  Versus making a different change that actually costs money.

Once you switch to EV, you make the same argument, but based on getting 1% more range.

In my 2013 LEAF, I bought a compact spare and jack, and left it (tied down) in the cargo space with a nice cover.  Never touched it in 3 years.  Nowadays I drive around with a good plug kit and inflator and hope for the best.  I have needed the plug kit once in 5 years, on a road trip.


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## SpaceBus (Saturday at 6:22 PM)

woodgeek said:


> Part of the no spare thing is EPA efficiency targets.  Thanks Obama.
> 
> If you are trying to get a vehicle to some mpg, dropping the weight of the spare, jack and lug wrench can get you close to a percent, at negative cost to the manufacturer.  Versus making a different change that actually costs money.
> 
> ...


I still say "thanks Obama" for everything. Current production tires also seem to resist punctures a lot better than they used to. I've literally never had a flat from a puncture/debris in the near 16 years I've been driving. Admittedly not as long as some of the other folks on here.


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## EbS-P (Saturday at 6:38 PM)

SpaceBus said:


> I still say "thanks Obama" for everything. Current production tires also seem to resist punctures a lot better than they used to. I've literally never had a flat from a puncture/debris in the near 16 years I've been driving. Admittedly not as long as some of the other folks on here.


After the hurricane hit here lots 20-30% of the roofs got replaced in a year.  There were nails everywhere.  Costco tire couldn’t hardly keep up.  We had 3 in a year.


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## begreen (Sunday at 12:49 PM)

Ashful said:


> They are, but ironically, not in the sizes used by what seems to be the cars often shipping sans spare tire.  For example, my OEM tire brand and model has a run-flat variant, but not in the size used on this car.
> 
> Just happened to be changing oil today, a very non-BEV thing to do, but it reminded me of this discussion on Tesla‘s lacking spare tires.   Here’s what’s under my trunk floor, in a 2016 ICE sport sedan.  I have friends and family with EV’s from BMW, Tesla, and Volvo, and will try to find out what they all have.
> 
> View attachment 307134


Very similar to what is in our Volt. Including the 12v battery in the rear.


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## Ashful (Monday at 8:16 AM)

begreen said:


> Very similar to what is in our Volt. Including the 12v battery in the rear.


Same with another family member's 2018 Tesla Model 3.  Just verified, no spare.


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## walhondingnashua (Monday at 10:40 AM)

Listened to a podcast about the humanitarian situation in the Congo around cobalt mining.  I'm sure there are plenty of people on here that know cobalt is used in rechargeable batteries to improve charging times and run times.  Although cobalt is in all of our rechargeable devices (cell phones), EV batteries are the highest source of demand.  As this issue becomes more public and some consumers put pressure on corporations to make changes to their supply chains, I'm curious how this will impact the progress of EVs.  Apparently, Tesla already manufactures roughly 1/2 of their cars without cobalt.


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## blades (Monday at 11:29 AM)

i have had 3 of the newer cars with nanny state auto trannies and other assorted Safety? functions, awd.  absolute pia in nothern states with black ice snow and such.  can't lock the 4wd on  can't completely shut it off ( Escapes  start up from a stop in 4 wheel and it slowly fades out ) Never figured out what was going on in a CX30 mazda  awd with cylinder cut outs and all.  dang thing would jam the brakes on if someone cut in front of you kinda close at 70mph( not fun) and other assorted gems. Yes, I pine for the manual tranny.  I will say for plowing snow the old slush boxes were better than a manual ( pumping the clutch in a tight lot gets old after about 8 hours).  But the manual wood out last the auto units.   dang sight cheaper to replace a worn clutch plate than rebuilding an auto .  ( I am also Cheap at times).  EV's currently not cost effective for me due to up front pricing.


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## Ashful (Monday at 11:39 AM)

blades said:


> i have had 3 of the newer cars with nanny state auto trannies and other assorted Safety? functions, awd.  absolute pia in nothern states with black ice snow and such.  can't lock the 4wd on  can't completely shut it off ( Escapes  start up from a stop in 4 wheel and it slowly fades out ) Never figured out what was going on in a CX30 mazda  awd with cylinder cut outs and all.  dang thing would jam the brakes on if someone cut in front of you kinda close at 70mph( not fun) and other assorted gems.


Interesting.  I have three newer cars with the full battery of modern safety features, including auto AWD on one, and forward collision avoidance in two, among other features.  But all of them can be disabled, and even (for the most part) remember your setting after turn off / re-start.  About the only things that aren't retained and reset with each restart have to do with emissions, such as the cylinder cut-out you had mentioned, but even those are easily disabled with 2 button clicks on each vehicle.


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## SpaceBus (Monday at 12:45 PM)

Some of the modern transverse AWD systems can be locked in 4wd, usually at lower speeds, but it's not a transfer case. All of the Jeep AWD systems can be locked, but most manufacturers do not offer this.


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## KDubU (Tuesday at 8:09 AM)

SpaceBus said:


> I agree, torque converters are spooky in slippery conditions. I also prefer wheeling with a manual, especially when there's a lot of torque available. That ZF8 is so good, I really don't miss a manual when driving it. Most of my experience was behind the wheel of a 2015 (?) BMW 335i M-Sport that ran 13's in the 1/4, but got 35 MPG highway. It was super fun with Hoosier slicks (purple crack) on an autocross course at the Corvette museum.
> 
> 
> 
> The practical benefits of a CVT, particularly for low gearing, are numerous, but I can't stand driving one. Having the engine at the same RPM all the time is not enjoyable. I have limited CVT experience, mainly in a Nissan Sentra rental and test driving a Nissan Juke NISMO RS AWD. Having one in a sporty car should be a crime, I put my foot down in that Juke NISMO and it took what felt like forever to pick a ratio and accelerate.


CVT’s suck big time. This is a primary reason I did not buy a Subaru. Test drove the Crosstrek and Outback, not a fan of the total lack of pep. Granted I was coming from a manual transmission but when I test drove a Mazda CX-5, the pickup was good and it wasn’t constantly changing gears or whatever CVT’s do. I bought a CX-5 and have zero regrets….okay the infotainment system is slow due to a poor chip choice but otherwise a great vehicle.


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## Shank (Tuesday at 9:42 AM)

This thread has had me exploring options more (I am not ready to buy yet, but I also don't want to be caught blindsided if I need to in the next 1-2years).

The largest holdup for me is the seemingly 50% price increase to move to a BEV or PHEV.  It seems BEV equivalents are sometimes less expensive than similar PHEV's, but for a number of reason's I would really like to be in a PHEV next.


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## Ashful (Tuesday at 11:01 AM)

Shank said:


> This thread has had me exploring options more (I am not ready to buy yet, but I also don't want to be caught blindsided if I need to in the next 1-2years).
> 
> The largest holdup for me is the seemingly 50% price increase to move to a BEV or PHEV.  It seems BEV equivalents are sometimes less expensive than similar PHEV's, but for a number of reason's I would really like to be in a PHEV next.


PHEV = most of the cost of a BEV + a small ICE... it's likely always going to be the higher-cost option, between any two similar platforms.

Unless your road-tripping in the thing, I think there's good argument to be made in favor of the BEV.  Not just cost, but simplicity, reduced maintenance, fewer moving parts, etc.


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## Shank (Tuesday at 11:08 AM)

Ashful said:


> PHEV = most of the cost of a BEV + a small ICE... it's likely always going to be the higher-cost option, between any two similar platforms.
> 
> Unless your road-tripping in the thing, I think there's good argument to be made in favor of the BEV.  Not just cost, but simplicity, reduced maintenance, fewer moving parts, etc.


All valid points.  As much as I enjoy maintenance on an ICE engine, why not add a whole other drivetrain set of components to deal with.....

We like to travel a decent amount, and I am not sold on long distance traveling with a BEV yet (but in 1-2 years it may be even better than it is now).   For my daily commute, a BEV is almost certainly a great option.  A lot to consider.


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## EbS-P (Tuesday at 11:45 AM)

Ashful said:


> PHEV = most of the cost of a BEV + a small ICE... it's likely always going to be the higher-cost option, between any two similar platforms.
> 
> Unless your road-tripping in the thing, I think there's good argument to be made in favor of the BEV.  Not just cost, but simplicity, reduced maintenance, fewer moving parts, etc.


I’m going to disagree on the most of the  BEV cost point.  The PHEV battery is 20-30% smaller that is a huge cost savings. The transmission/hybrid drive for a PHEV will cost more but the starter generator and drive unit are integrated.  Drive unit is considerably smaller that’s a  Cost savings.   

I do think it will be higher cost compared to the ICE counterparts but at current battery prices  and the fact  that Tesla is make like 30% profit on cars while Honda and Toyota are like 10%.  Probably puts the ice on a more equal cost footing with a bev than a PHEV.    I’ve got not data to back it up and will gladly conceded any argument challenging this. We are still willfully to pay more for anything with a battery because the supply is tight.   

Tesla had the number 6 and 7 best selling vehicles in the us in 2022. 1, 3 and 3 were trucks (ford Chevy dodge in that order) 4 and 5 were RAV4 and camera. 

6 was the y and 7 the model 3.   Tell me the first BET prices 10-20% over the ICE version won’t sell like hotcakes.


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## ABMax24 (Tuesday at 12:40 PM)

IMO the big 3 are doing it wrong. They are coming out with PHEV cars and SUVs and BEV pickups. I think it needs to be switched, I can handle and BEV SUV. But towing range on the BEV pickups is pathetic, I will never buy one when they get 70 miles range with a trailer on behind.

Give me a PHEV pickup, that's logical, daily drive on battery, and then have the engine for longer range trips and towing.

Or one with a 300kwh battery. But IMO the PHEV seems more logical and cost effective at present time when factoring in the still high cost of batteries.


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## EbS-P (Tuesday at 1:03 PM)

ABMax24 said:


> IMO the big 3 are doing it wrong. They are coming out with PHEV cars and SUVs and BEV pickups. I think it needs to be switched, I can handle and BEV SUV. But towing range on the BEV pickups is pathetic, I will never buy one when they get 70 miles range with a trailer on behind.
> 
> Give me a PHEV pickup, that's logical, daily drive on battery, and then have the engine for longer range trips and towing.
> 
> Or one with a 300kwh battery. But IMO the PHEV seems more logical and cost effective at present time when factoring in the still high cost of batteries.


I don’t think They don’t have a hybrid drive system for the the 1/2 and larger trucks yet.  Toyota has one for theirs now.  Have not seen one in the wild yet.  Have not seen a tear down on it either.  The smaller versions use a planetary CVT.  Want that on your truck?


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## sloeffle (Tuesday at 1:11 PM)

ABMax24 said:


> IMO the big 3 are doing it wrong. They are coming out with PHEV cars and SUVs and BEV pickups. I think it needs to be switched, I can handle and BEV SUV. But towing range on the BEV pickups is pathetic, I will never buy one when they get 70 miles range with a trailer on behind.
> 
> Give me a PHEV pickup, that's logical, daily drive on battery, and then have the engine for longer range trips and towing.
> 
> Or one with a 300kwh battery. But IMO the PHEV seems more logical and cost effective at present time when factoring in the still high cost of batteries.


I agree with your post completely. I wouldn't buy a BEV pickup if I was going to be using it as a truck vs a grocery getter. If I'm spending that much on a truck it better have six wheels, and a diesel engine. IMHO - it's more of a status symbol than anything to the folks that can afford them.

The reason they aren't doing that is profits. Profits are so high on pickups it probably make most sense to start with them. I read, or heard somewhere that Ford sold more F series pickups than what some auto manufacturers sell in their whole line up. They also mentioned what percentage of that equated to Ford's overall profits for the year. It was a pretty high percentage from what I remember.


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## Ashful (Tuesday at 1:29 PM)

EbS-P said:


> I’m going to disagree on the most of the  BEV cost point.  The PHEV battery is 20-30% smaller that is a huge cost savings. The transmission/hybrid drive for a PHEV will cost more but the starter generator and drive unit are integrated.  Drive unit is considerably smaller that’s a  Cost savings.


Are we down to arguing about the definition of the word "most"?   

I'll admit I'm not the biggest follower of the BEV and PHEV market.  jebatty, woodgeek, and you all have me beat there.  But I did shop both PHEV's and BEV's pretty seriously in 2020, and this is the trend I observed.  There were certainly BEV's much more expensive than PHEV's, but justifiably so, being larger and more capable platforms.  When trying to really compare apples to apples, as much as was practical between differing brands and platforms, I was finding the PHEV's had a higher cost than BEV's.


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## EbS-P (Tuesday at 1:41 PM)

Ashful said:


> Are we down to arguing about the definition of the word "most"?
> 
> I'll admit I'm not the biggest follower of the BEV and PHEV market.  jebatty, woodgeek, and you all have me beat there.  But I did shop both PHEV's and BEV's pretty seriously in 2020, and this is the trend I observed.  There were certainly BEV's much more expensive than PHEV's, but justifiably so, being larger and more capable platforms.  When trying to really compare apples to apples, as much as was practical between differing brands and platforms, I was finding the PHEV's had a higher cost than BEV's.


Are there any other PHEV than Toyota?   I’m can’t think of any off the top of my head available 2020 and after.   It’s just not an apple to apple’s market.  Getting closer.  Ionic 5 to RAV4 is about the closest match I can think of.     The next 12 months will see some more competition and the next 24-36 will be very interesting.   

I don’t see hybrid ever on at truck buyers mind.   If you wanted economy you wouldn’t get a truck. If you wanted power you get the biggest ICE you could afford.   If you were wanting a truck on a budget you get a smaller one or a used one.   The fact the truck outsold everything last year really tells you something.  We like and some need a truck more than any other vehicle.   

This is a huge market and one with brand bias that defies data.  You don’t want to screw this up if you are a manufacturer or maybe the brand allegiance is so strong you might get a second chance.


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## Ashful (Tuesday at 1:54 PM)

EbS-P said:


> Are there any other PHEV than Toyota?


Dunno about Toyota, I was only looking at Euro wagons and SUV's.  Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi.  Our prior two wagons were Audi and Volvo, so those were high on the list, particularly the V60 Polestar PHEV.

But my god... you could have bought two of the V60 ICE's for the MSRP of the PHEV.  The horsepower was impressive, something like 420 hp, but not enough to convince my wife (primary driver of the wagon) that it was worth the added cost.


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## walhondingnashua (Tuesday at 2:40 PM)

Maybe the conversation on ICEs vs EVs needs to be from this perspective... 

1.   Wanting to convert as many automobiles on the roads in the US over a reasonable amount of time for environmental reasons...
2.  Auto manufacturers providing EV options that fit a larger demand base that actually fits more realistic needs of people that want to buy them...

EVs are superior (arguably) to ICEs for fleet usages (delivery like UPS/FEDEX/AMAZON, work crews, landscapers, plumbers, electricians etc) or commuting/ city driving.  All are situations in which there is a daily known amount of driving and there is a built in charging time.  

ICEs are superior to EVs for more personal use, larger truck work or the average American that doesn't have a regular commute. 

Manufacturers SHOULD be making a much larger line up of small commuter option vehicles and convert all (or most) commercial vehicle production over to EV because this is where people will realistically use them and buy them.

Making the majority of EVs fit the price range and desires of a small portion of the population will not get more of them on the road and not 1. help with environmental reasons and 2.  not encourage manufactures improve their options.


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## ABMax24 (Tuesday at 3:36 PM)

EbS-P said:


> I don’t think They don’t have a hybrid drive system for the the 1/2 and larger trucks yet.  Toyota has one for theirs now.  Have not seen one in the wild yet.  Have not seen a tear down on it either.  The smaller versions use a planetary CVT.  Want that on your truck?



Ford has the Power Boost hybrid, just not a PHEV yet.


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## Shank (Tuesday at 3:54 PM)

ABMax24 said:


> Ford has the Power Boost hybrid, just not a PHEV yet.


Ram also has eTORQUE


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## Ashful (Tuesday at 11:52 PM)

walhondingnashua said:


> Making the majority of EVs fit the price range and desires of a small portion of the population will not get more of them on the road and not 1. help with environmental reasons and 2.  not encourage manufactures improve their options.


Good post.  But I do think this is the way they're inevitably headed, as well.  It makes sense that the new tech was rolled out first aimed at the crowd most likely to be early adopters, namely enthusiasts and higher-end buyers.  But there's no way major automakers are going to ignore the masses, as the tech becomes mature and opportunities for cost reduction are realized.

Almost all new tech starts with performance first, just get it working, and moves to cost reduction and yield improvement second.


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## Shank (Wednesday at 7:17 AM)

Ashful said:


> Good post.  But I do think this is the way they're inevitably headed, as well.  It makes sense that the new tech was rolled out first aimed at the crowd most likely to be early adopters, namely enthusiasts and higher-end buyers.  But there's no way major automakers are going to ignore the masses, as the tech becomes mature and opportunities for cost reduction are realized.
> 
> Almost all new tech starts with performance first, just get it working, and moves to cost reduction and yield improvement second.


I am more than ok with the high-end crowd being the Guinea pigs...

I do agree completely though.  Much like first model years and "launch editions", this is the same thing.  They pump out the highest end largest margin vehicles.   This should be a good thing for the technology, make the most money of the fewest samples and improve the technology.


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## EbS-P (Wednesday at 8:18 AM)

Shank said:


> I am more than ok with the high-end crowd being the Guinea pigs...
> 
> I do agree completely though.  Much like first model years and "launch editions", this is the same thing.  They pump out the highest end largest margin vehicles.   This should be a good thing for the technology, make the most money of the fewest samples and improve the technology.


I do think it will be interesting to see if Tesla’s manufacturing philosophy will affect the cab on frame products.    Are the extra margins in the quantity or the ease of assembly?


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## Shank (Wednesday at 8:40 AM)

EbS-P said:


> I do think it will be interesting to see if Tesla’s manufacturing philosophy will affect the cab on frame products.    Are the extra margins in the quantity or the ease of assembly?


I am unfamiliar with Tesla's manufacturing methods but with unibody platforms having subframes I can't imagine it is vastly different.


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## EbS-P (Wednesday at 9:12 AM)

Shank said:


> I am unfamiliar with Tesla's manufacturing methods but with unibody platforms having subframes I can't imagine it is vastly different.


Tesla’s mega castings have incorporated 200-300 (this number could be off so don’t quote it but it’s close enough) individual “parts” into a single casting that is manufactured in 90 seconds.  It’s way beyond unibody.  The structural battery pack with a casting n each end is something that’s never been done.


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## SpaceBus (Wednesday at 9:31 AM)

We all forget that the first ICE cars were crazy expensive and only accessible to rich people. Gas stations were few and far between, range anxiety was real. If you own a home or rent a place with a 200 amp supply, you can probably do most of your EV charging at home. You can't refuel your ICE at home, in most cases.


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## Shank (Wednesday at 9:34 AM)

SpaceBus said:


> We all forget that the first ICE cars were crazy expensive and only accessible to rich people. Gas stations were few and far between, range anxiety was real. If you own a home or rent a place with a 200 amp supply, you can probably do most of your EV charging at home. You can't refuel your ICE at home, in most cases.



Another thing I need to look into, I only have a 100A supply...



EbS-P said:


> Tesla’s mega castings have incorporated 200-300 (this number could be off so don’t quote it but it’s close enough) individual “parts” into a single casting that is manufactured in 90 seconds.  It’s way beyond unibody.  The structural battery pack with a casting n each end is something that’s never been done.



Interesting.  I would like to look into this.


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## Shank (Wednesday at 9:40 AM)

EbS-P said:


> Tesla’s mega castings have incorporated 200-300 (this number could be off so don’t quote it but it’s close enough) individual “parts” into a single casting that is manufactured in 90 seconds.  It’s way beyond unibody.  The structural battery pack with a casting n each end is something that’s never been done.




A video of the process.


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## EbS-P (Wednesday at 9:55 AM)

SpaceBus said:


> We all forget that the first ICE cars were crazy expensive and only accessible to rich people. Gas stations were few and far between, range anxiety was real. If you own a home or rent a place with a 200 amp supply, you can probably do most of your EV charging at home. You can't refuel your ICE at home, in most cases.


I can charge 100 miles a day (10 hours) on 13A 3.1kw.  200 amp isn’t even needed.


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## Ashful (Wednesday at 10:08 AM)

Shank said:


> Another thing I need to look into, I only have a 100A supply...


But I think you said you were a young guy, so maybe just getting started, not yet in your "forever" house?  Might make more sense to wait on upgrades, if that's the case, unless you're dragging that BEV home this year.


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## blades (Wednesday at 10:11 AM)

I can remember when centrifucal casting was brand new, and the lost wax system was just catching  on in high production.  The first Centrifucal unit, in Milwaukee WI, was hand built in house by Nordberg Mfg.  Used to make some parts for USS Nautilus propulsion systems at the time. ( Grandpa built the molds, Dad was head of the tool room)


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## Shank (Wednesday at 10:17 AM)

Ashful said:


> But I think you said you were a young guy, so maybe just getting started, not yet in your "forever" house?  Might make more sense to wait on upgrades, if that's the case, unless you're dragging that BEV home this year.


Correct, but it's low cost is sure nice.  It isn't something I would just jump into.  There may be some considerations in the near future that require more amperage anyway.  Time will tell.


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## boomfire (Yesterday at 12:01 PM)

*Personally* level 1 charger didn't cut it for my needs [For a lot it might be sufficient or the only option].  When we bought the car, took almost 36 hours to fully charge the car. Family doctor was 120 miles roundtrip, with shopping near by added another 15 miles, thats 135 miles.  I immediately bought Level 2 Charger. Level 1 charger stays as in the car as an emergency backup.

Ioniq 5 supports 48A on a level 2 at home.
My garage has a 100A subpanel,
I installed my own level 2 charger. Had to do bit of electrical work. to support 48A, Installed a 60A circuit breaker on the subpanel, and _*hardwired*_ the level 2 charger with a 4 AWG/Guage wire.
Self Installation Total Cost: under $850 [Level 2 Charger + Circuit Breaker + 4 feet Wire + Misc, clamps etc]
My Level 2 charging rate is 11.3 kW/h. I consistently charge the car to 80% around 5 hours or 100% under 7 hours if the car is bone dry [pretty rare].

Something to keep in mind. If you live in an urban city/township area or need permits from town (which is common), you are better off hiring a licensed electrician/professional to do the work. I have seen the cost of level 2 installation can widely range from few hundreds to several thousands, as the wiring is NOT cheap and depends on your current electric situation. Charger costs can be offset if your electric company offers discount [always good to check, mine didnt].

If i get a chance to buy a BEV truck in future, i might add a second level 2 and/or upgrade the system as the trucks have bigger battery and support much higher Amperage. I would like to maximize that.


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## EbS-P (Yesterday at 7:49 PM)

Well Fords not taking any orders any more. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/01/1...ightning-any-longer-count-this-as-a-fail/amp/

Does that make the Tesla cyber truck more appealing??

It’s now a race to volume production and Ford stumbled.  Tesla kept delaying and delaying let’s see if  they can pull off volume production and out pace Ford.


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## ABMax24 (Yesterday at 8:34 PM)

EbS-P said:


> Well Fords not taking any orders any more. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/01/1...ightning-any-longer-count-this-as-a-fail/amp/
> 
> Does that make the Tesla cyber truck more appealing??
> 
> It’s now a race to volume production and Ford stumbled.  Tesla kept delaying and delaying let’s see if  they can pull off volume production and out pace Ford.



Ford isn't just having issues with Lightning, other models have been unavailable for order for months too.

Work ordered 4 2022 F550's back in February, still no idea when we might get them. All we know is they will be coming as 2023's and the price has increased close to $15k.


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## KDubU (Yesterday at 8:50 PM)

EbS-P said:


> Well Fords not taking any orders any more. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/01/1...ightning-any-longer-count-this-as-a-fail/amp/
> 
> Does that make the Tesla cyber truck more appealing??
> 
> It’s now a race to volume production and Ford stumbled.  Tesla kept delaying and delaying let’s see if  they can pull off volume production and out pace Ford.


Tesla had similar issues when they first started out with the S and also with the 3 initially. It takes time to ramp up and no car company goes from making none to 250k right away.


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## SpaceBus (Today at 5:55 AM)

I think Ford underestimated demand and there's a chip shortage.


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## KDubU (Today at 7:50 AM)

SpaceBus said:


> I think Ford underestimated demand and there's a chip shortage.


As did Tesla and Rivian….If Toyota could get their EV Tacoma out now, I would buy one immediately. There is a lot of demand for these vehicles.


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## Ashful (Today at 8:21 AM)

KDubU said:


> If Toyota could get their EV Tacoma out now, I would buy one immediately.


Have you seen the price projection?


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## boomfire (Today at 8:52 AM)

Tesla slashed prices UPTO 20% on some of their models . 3 & Y are looking pretty affordable. Combined with 2023 Fed tax credit 7500, you can drive a Model 3 off the lot for under 40K (minus taxes).






						Amid demand concerns, Tesla cuts prices by up to $13K in US
					

Tesla has massively cut prices across new models in the US (update: and Europe), with the largest price drop occurring...




					electrek.co


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## KDubU (Today at 8:57 AM)

Ashful said:


> Have you seen the price projection?


No and am afraid to ask…


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## EbS-P (Today at 8:59 AM)

boomfire said:


> Tesla slashed prices UPTO 20% on some of their models . 3 & Y are looking pretty affordable. Combined with 2023 Fed tax credit 7500, you can drive a Model 3 off the lot for under 40K (minus taxes).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They 5 seat Y and the 3 Performance got the biggest cuts to get under the tax credit caps.  Still can not order the Model 3 long range as they ware still way behind on orders.   

If you are BEV shopping and need one in the next 12 months I doubt you will get a better deal. For at least a year.


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## boomfire (Today at 9:23 AM)

EbS-P said:


> They 5 seat Y and the 3 Performance got the biggest cuts to get under the tax credit caps.  Still can not order the Model 3 long range as they ware still way behind on orders.
> 
> If you are BEV shopping and need one in the next 12 months I doubt you will get a better deal. For at least a year.



yea if some one is looking for a cheaper EV this would be the time. some states like NJ offer even further rebates. for eg: you can get a brand new model 3 combined with state (4k) and fed (7500), for under 33k.  Unfortunately in PA you get only 750 rebate.

This is good if someone is in the market for a used tesla, the prices will plummet soon and affordable for a lot people.


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## Ashful (Today at 9:39 AM)

KDubU said:


> No and am afraid to ask…


I was very briefly all gung-ho about replacing our prior sports wagon with a BEV SUV... until I saw the initial cost.  This was in 2020, so maybe the ratio has closed a bit, but I was looking at BEV's for $110k that lacked basic features and capability found on $65k ICE's.  The gap closes somewhat when figuring TCO, but still not entirely in our case... that's an awful big gap to close with $100 fuel per month and a $45 oil change once per year.  I'm not keeping the car 40 years.

Even if equal, I was looking at 5-seater BEV's with limited storage and towing, versus 7-seater ICE's with more storage and capacity to tow all of my trailers, for nearly double the price?


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## boomfire (Today at 10:13 AM)

For shits and giggles I checked vroom and carvana to price my ioniq 5, it dropped price by 10k from *Last week*.

They reacted quickly with relative to Tesla price drop.  bummer


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## woodgeek (Today at 10:39 AM)

boomfire said:


> For shits and giggles I checked vroom and carvana to price my ioniq 5, it dropped price by 10k from *Last week*.
> 
> They reacted quickly with relative to Tesla price drop.  bummer


The EV fora are reporting today that used EV prices have dropped dramatically across makes.

I am still glad I leased my 22 Bolt.  

Next step is I expect that Ford will see some heavier cancellations on their wait lists... and will reopen taking orders.... before also dropping prices.


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## moresnow (Today at 10:58 AM)

woodgeek said:


> The EV fora are reporting today that used EV prices have dropped dramatically across makes.
> 
> I am still glad I leased my 22 Bolt.
> 
> Next step is I expect that Ford will see some heavier cancellations on their wait lists... and will reopen taking orders.... before also dropping prices.


Lets hope this is the case. For all of us. Reality check. Perhaps?


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## EbS-P (Today at 12:41 PM)

boomfire said:


> For shits and giggles I checked vroom and carvana to price my ioniq 5, it dropped price by 10k from *Last week*.
> 
> They reacted quickly with relative to Tesla price drop.  bummer


There is talk that there is a car loan crisis brewing.  They’ve been saying that for a while.  But used car prices are dropping fast from their peak as new inventory builds a the rising interest rates decrease purchasing power.  I do think any new ICE purchased now will see larger than average depreciation as demand for BEVs grows.  The  new and used EV  tax credit  will have impacts on valuations.


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## EbS-P (Today at 1:05 PM)

Ashful said:


> I was very briefly all gung-ho about replacing our prior sports wagon with a BEV SUV... until I saw the initial cost.  This was in 2020, so maybe the ratio has closed a bit, but I was looking at BEV's for $110k that lacked basic features and capability found on $65k ICE's.  The gap closes somewhat when figuring TCO, but still not entirely in our case... that's an awful big gap to close with $100 fuel per month and a $45 oil change once per year.  I'm not keeping the car 40 years.
> 
> Even if equal, I was looking at 5-seater BEV's with limited storage and towing, versus 7-seater ICE's with more storage and capacity to tow all of my trailers, for nearly double the price?


Model X price drop.


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