# Just started comparing add-on furnaces



## Danno77 (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm just starting to compare add-on wood furnaces. Install will be easy enough, already have the details worked out for a new insulated 6" flex liner, but a little worried that the run will be a little long (>30ft) but I've seen woodstoves with 35 foot runs before, just wasn't sure about such a large firebox mating up with that long of a run for that far.

There are a lot more options than I figured there would be, and a lot of specs to examine when I compare them. geesh, who knew it could be this complicated.

Currently, I have a 100,000BTU gas that is 92% efficient and it can't keep up when it's windy and cold (test this week was 40mph gusts when temp was in single digits; results had house hold around 66 degrees with wood stove cranked and a number of electric heaters running throughout the 3500ish sq ft house.) The attic and wood stove room aren't ducted, so the furnace wouldn't heat them no matter what. 

Let's just assume that I'm gonna heat 2500-3000ish with this furnace.
it's triple wythe soft brick with lath and plaster right on the brick inside. It's 2 stories with a finished attic on the top of that. it's 150yr old, and I'm working hard to restore the 150 year old windows to their former glory with hand made wooden storm windows.

here are a few of the choices I've run accross:

Vogelzang 2500
--------------
115,000BTUs
24" logs
? cu ft
1100CFM blower
$1200
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_1036726_1036726

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

USSC 1537G
--------------
119,000BTUs
26" logs
? cu ft
twin 500cfm blowers (1100)
$1300
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200395370_200395370

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

FC500
------------
100,000BTUs
22" logs
5cu ft
1150--&gt;1500--&gt;1800CFM blower
$1799
http://www.woodheatpro.com/fc500.aspx

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

USSC 1400
------------
114,000BTUs
26" logs
? cu ft
twin 550CFM blower(total 1100CFM)
$1964 (manufacturer) probably cheaper at store ~$1400 or so
http://www.usstove.com/proddetail.php?prod=1400

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ashley 1602R
------------
135,000BTUs
28" logs
? cu ft
1,100--&gt;1,250--&gt;1,400 CFM blower
$1900
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200362036_200362036

Comments? suggestions? man, with one of these giong I'd be sure to go through 10 cords of wood at my place. I better decide soon what to get in case I have to process that much for next year...


----------



## JustWood (Dec 11, 2009)

You get what you pay for when it comes  to furnaces.
If your going to spend 2K, I wood recomend a Yukon or Woodchuck.


----------



## stee6043 (Dec 11, 2009)

You have more than 100,000btu/hr heat loss with 2500-3000 square feet of space?  This is a tremendous load.  I don't think any of the furnaces you mention above will handle this kind of load consistently, especially if you are planning to use 6" flex pipe for your connection.

I personally think your money will be better spent stopping the heat from leaving your house first.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 11, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> You have more than 100,000btu/hr heat loss with 2500-3000 square feet of space?  This is a tremendous load.  I don't think any of the furnaces you mention above will handle this kind of load consistently, especially if you are planning to use 6" flex pipe for your connection.
> 
> I personally think your money will be better spent stopping the heat from leaving your house first.



+1 the 135k maybe but at that price there's better out there


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 11, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> I personally think your money will be better spent stopping the heat from leaving your house first.


I'm open to any suggestions you have there. Attic insulation is done, and I'm working on the windows, any other ideas? I hear garbage about people insulating their inside walls with styrofoam board, but they surely don't have their original trim because adding another inch to my walls just wouldn't work with the historic trim without major modifications around windows and doors.

There are no voids to fill in the walls, as it's just plaster and lath right on the brick.

I've been meaning to insulate down in the basement, I have some of the insulation to strap up into the joists, so hopefully that helps. 

The window restoring process is slow, but rewarding. the few that I've done are dramatically nicer than the drafty ones I haven't, but I put plastic up on the unrestored ones and it really seems to help. Don't even try to convince me to get new windows, the data is out on that and it's a sham. I'm not paying for new vinyl windows every 10-25 years for 7 - 7ft tall windows and 6 - 5ft windows.

at any rate, I was thinking that 100K BTU furnace (actually putting out 92K, right?) sounds like a reasonably sized furnace for a house of that size and age. I have 10ft ceilings on the first floor, but only 8.5 on the second and 8 on the third.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 11, 2009)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> stee6043 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



100k sounds small, I have 119k on 2600 sq ft heavy insultion and wished I would have gone bigger


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 11, 2009)

maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a 125,000 furnace, but somehow I've got it stuck in my head that it's 100K. I'm pretty sure about the 92% efficiency rating though.... I'm on my way home for lunch, so I'll dbl check.

I figured that since the current furnace is good enough to heat the place to 70 degrees all winter (except for a handful of VERY FRIGID days) then a wood furnace rated a little higher than 92% of 100K/125K (92K/115K) should be able to do the same.


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 11, 2009)

right on the sticker it says "Input: 100,000btus" "output: 93,000btus". i guess I figured that something above 110K should do the job even better than my furnace, and I wouldn't need to run it hard except in the most extreme temps.

Is there a different liner I should be considering? I'm open to it. it's an interior brick chimney with no existing liner. it's been a while since I've looked at the math, but I think it can't handle anything bigger than a 6" after you get insulation on it.


----------



## stee6043 (Dec 11, 2009)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> stee6043 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've read varying opinions on sealing up older homes.  One thing that seems to be common is the basement.  Particularly, the outside edges.  Lots of people spray foam around the rim joist to prevent drafts.  My home has R30 insulation shoved in every joist bay for about 12" back.   From there work your way up.  An HVAC contractor can do a smoke test, or thermal imaging, and really give you a good idea of where your heat is getting out.

Old or new, your house is bleeding BTU's somewhere.  I heat 3200 square feet in a home built in 2003.  My NG furnace is 90,000 btu and even on the coldest of cold days it ran less than 40 minutes per hour.  My average heat load is roughly 20,000 btu per hour in winter with my peak being approx 50k-55kbtu/hr on a VERY cold day (-20 at night, -5 during the day).

Do you have someone local that could do a thermal scan of your house?  Again....I think it would be money well spent.


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 11, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> I've read varying opinions on sealing up older homes.  One thing that seems to be common is the basement.  Particularly, the outside edges.  Lots of people spray foam around the rim joist to prevent drafts.  My home has R30 insulation shoved in every joist bay for about 12" back.   From there work your way up.  An HVAC contractor can do a smoke test, or thermal imaging, and really give you a good idea of where your heat is getting out.
> 
> Old or new, your house is bleeding BTU's somewhere.  I heat 3200 square feet in a home built in 2003.  My NG furnace is 90,000 btu and even on the coldest of cold days it ran less than 40 minutes per hour.  My average heat load is roughly 20,000 btu per hour in winter with my peak being approx 50k-55kbtu/hr on a VERY cold day (-20 at night, -5 during the day).
> 
> Do you have someone local that could do a thermal scan of your house?  Again....I think it would be money well spent.


I don't have rim joists, those are what you get when you have a wood framed house on a foundation. I have joists embedded in 2ft(?) of fieldstone and mortar where it meets the three layers of brick. I do agree that the basement could use some work, but you have to be very careful about how you mess with fieldstone basement walls. they need to be breathable, so covering them with foam insulation is a no-no.


----------



## blades (Dec 11, 2009)

Pyro, your place built 2003 his place over 100 years old no comparison possible. completely different construction practices.
Danno,   I used to have a shop, which is still standing that was built the same way as yours. Man, those walls in the winter would just suck the heat right out, reverse in the summer. 800 sq ft, 14ft ceilings, $5-600/mo. utility bills year round.  There are firms that specialize in acquiring old interior moldings and such or duplication of same. The only way you are going to beat this is to insulate by installing new walls inside over the the existing and using a sprayed on foam prior to new dry wall or plaster and lathe ( to keep original appearance inside). It will not be cheap. Most all your original molding will still work if it is removed very carefully, because you will be shrinking the interior dimensions a couple inches. In fact the inside room walls adjoining the outside walls will have to be trimmed back a shade, the outside ones will remain the same length. Yes the window casings will have to be reconstructed for the added depth the actual surface moldings will remain the same. The interior sill ledge will change depth wise, but that is not a huge problem. Nor is staining it to match as there are firms that can create a stain for you to do that.  Over all it can be done in a fashion that you could almost not tell anything was changed. Just requires Time, Cash and Sweat Equity. The bad news is that unless you are planning on staying there a very long time you will never achieve payback. Self satisfaction, yes.


----------



## lexybird (Dec 11, 2009)

i would get an american made englander furnace over those lighter weight chinese models mentioned ,mine performs great and easily heats my 2,000 sq ft home i nthe coldest january nights ,its heavy duty super easy to regulate and i can get overnight burns easy  (id avoid furnaces with forced draft blower becuase they eat wood ) .if you can afford it (another grand)the PSG caddie would really  be your best option it is EPA certified and offers long clean burns the others dont

heres a link to lowes site
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=213081-76845-50-SHW35&lpage=none


----------



## blades (Dec 11, 2009)

Danno77 your comment on the windows while perhaps true of the vinyl replacement units, does not hold true for all the types out there. Replacement sash only systems are available both in double and triple glazing made from real wood, also in fiberglass ( fiberglass units are almost the same expansion/contraction ratio as wood ones. Vinyl not even close) I would stlll recommend the storms as you are doing. I have done two homes in the past 15 years on the first (1800 sq ft ranch late 50's build) the improvements were sill insulation in basement, attic insulation, window sash replacements (wood framed) double glazed/ argon injected, and alum. storms all around. Next step would have been foam insulation injection on exterior walls sadly there was a major life change before that was possible. Outcome was a 33% reduction in utility usage, although due to the meteoric rise in utility rates no dollar savings ,per say, were realized.  2nd home (2000 sq ft ranch, 1960 build), where I am now all the aforementioned plus new 92% gas furnace & 13 seer ac-central, new gas hot water heater,  (50gal), wood stove and a wood furnace ( which supply 90% of the heat) The wood furnace at present just heats the basement  as this place is still a work in progress, even so utility usage has been reduced 80% over previous tenants and during my duration here 50% since acquisition. I have 3 doors to replace, an exterior wall ( back wall of garage) to rebuild/insulate. Both homes are all brick exteriors with minimum or no insulation in the exterior walls (just wasn't done in those days). So this place is another candidate for the foam insulation injection system.


----------



## semlin (Dec 11, 2009)

guys, the insulation advice is nice but he came asking about boiler options.  please consider that some big old house owners are coming here because they have done some math and figured out that a wood boiler will give more bang for the buck than insulating beyond the obvious steps they have likely already taken.

for big old houses, the reality is that getting a big wood boiler instead of a slightly smaller one may be much more cost effective than trying to insulate, especially if you are on a budget and can't do both.  i have similar problems: big house, lots of big vintage single paned windows and 6" wide walls filled with powdered gypsum of unknown r value and unknown void locations.  it is completely cost prohibitive for me to have storm windows made so I am also making them myself one at a time and expect to be done in three years or so.  in the meantime, a little math shows that even the raw cost of lumber and glass might be better spent on a wood boiler in terms of recovery time.  

and as for retrofitting, even assuming it didn't devalue the house or trap moisture, the cost of stripping down, spray foaming, strapping, drywalling, rewiring and then custom milling vintage trim for an entire big old house would cover the cost of installing a couple of garns without breaking a sweat.


----------



## blades (Dec 11, 2009)

Danno77, I would suggest upping your sights on the wood furnace to the $2g plus range, the $1000-1500 or so units  are very hard to control and fairly inefficient  ( yes I have one, it will be replaced shortly) You might want to wait a bit as the new emission testing has not been applied to alot of the add-on wood furnaces as yet. What ever you do make sure it has the secondary burn system and a substantial heat exhanger system both contribute to the overall efficiency of the unit. I have seen a Caddy unit which looked pretty good but have no hands on experience with it. There is a firm here in Wisconsin ( around the middle of the state) that builds a seconday burn wood furnace also, the name escapes me at present, but they have been around a quite awhile ( longer than most). They do have a web sight. They are low key advertisement wise Comparable to the Caddy and similar units. (perhaps Meyer? not sure)


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 12, 2009)

lexybird said:
			
		

> i would get an american made englander furnace over those lighter weight chinese models mentioned


Do you work for englander or something? DBL check the stoves I posted and let me know which one is chinese.


----------



## lexybird (Dec 12, 2009)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> lexybird said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nope ,i just happen to like mine for the money ,now as far as the chinese stoves im just stating a fact ,to my knowledge ~the fire chief is the only one thats american made  of those listed .hard ot believe but the us stoves and vogelzangs are made in china.sorry just trying to help yo u make an educated choice bro


----------



## kieth4548 (Dec 12, 2009)

I have an englander 28-3500 furnace add-on. I heat a 3000sqft house with it and I love it. When I get this the stove cranking it will burn you out of the house (no pun attended). We are opening windows at times to let out some of the heat out. I don't use a lot of wood from what people have told me. I use about 5 quards a season. This last week it got close to the single digits and our house stayed at 75 degress no trouble.

http://englandsstoveworks.com/28-3500.html

I bought mine at my local lumber yard and had them deliver it right next to my door.


----------



## laynes69 (Dec 12, 2009)

We have a 150+ year old 2400 square foot victorian with 10' ceilings. We have the same cubic feet as a 3000 square foot home with 8' ceilings. Our old hotblast did a better job at keeping up with the temperatures than our caddy does now. But I had the 1500 hotblast jacket modified to accept a series install, and could fill it every 3 to 4 hours. The caddy is a fine unit, but with that much square footage and heat loss you will need a larger furnace. We can keep our house at 70-72 with outside temps around 10-15 degrees. We have quite a bit heat loss around the base of the walls and foundation. I need to figure out a way to stop those leaks and things will be better with us. If I had to do it again, I would have installed the Max caddy, its around 3200 but is built the same as the caddy, and has the clean burning technology that the caddy has. It meets canadian clean air standards, but not yet the epa standards which are basically the same thing. I would put the money down and get something thats efficient. I don't regret our decision on the caddy but our house is almost too much. If our house was new, the caddy wouldn't be a problem. If you get a standard furnace, I would expect you to see at least 10 cords a year trying to heat a house like that. Look into the max caddy.


----------



## freeburn (Dec 12, 2009)

blades said:
			
		

> Danno77, I would suggest upping your sights on the wood furnace to the $2g plus range, the $1000-1500 or so units  are very hard to control and fairly inefficient  ( yes I have one, it will be replaced shortly) You might want to wait a bit as the new emission testing has not been applied to alot of the add-on wood furnaces as yet. What ever you do make sure it has the secondary burn system and a substantial heat exhanger system both contribute to the overall efficiency of the unit. I have seen a Caddy unit which looked pretty good but have no hands on experience with it. There is a firm here in Wisconsin ( around the middle of the state) that builds a seconday burn wood furnace also, the name escapes me at present, but they have been around a quite awhile ( longer than most). They do have a web sight. They are low key advertisement wise Comparable to the Caddy and similar units. (perhaps Meyer? not sure)



Are you talking about the Energy King out of Eau Claire or Woodchuck out of Dorchester now distributed by Meyer Manufacturing (Woodchuck as of the last I checked was not EPA cert, no tax credit)? Wouldn't rule out the new one from Blaze King either, it's got a catalytic converter in it. It's called APEX something or other.


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 12, 2009)

lexybird said:
			
		

> Danno77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well, from my sig I'm sure you can see I don't mind the englander made stoves, but this USSC stuff is news to me. I'm not surprised by the VZs being Chinese made, but after looking at the USSC stoves they appeared to me (not super experienced, I'll admit) to be well made.

Anyway, the FireChief stoves are easy to get ahold of as I live 2 miles away from a store that sells them. That makes them slightly more appealing than having to go to Lowes and order one (they don't carry any stoves in the closest store ~40 mins away).

thanks for the info, all. i'm gonna keep looking a these, but I do have some more questions. Like how much of a difference does the CFMs make in a house, like is there a max to how much air you want to move past any stove of a particular size? Like do you end up just blowing more "warm" air when you have 1800CFMs past a 115,000BTU stove, where as a 1100CFMblower past a similarly sized stove would work just as well because the air would be hotter, even though there is less of it? (does that question even make sense?)


----------



## freeburn (Dec 12, 2009)

Keep in mind, the biggest thing in installing an add-on furnace is your ductwork. Your cold air has to be as large or even larger than where your warm air is coming out otherwise it starves the blower. Same can be said of the warm air side, it must not be made to force an elephant into a straw. In short, the blower fan is only as good as it's installation and with an add-on, that can be somewhat challenging to do. That's why the Englander and I believe the fire chief too, to some extent, follow the principle that the onboard blower is not designed to use for the whole house, but is more the heat source which is pumped into the warm air plenum which is then distributed with the existing blower on your gas furnace. Now some, like myself, are able to use just the existing blower on the add-on to do both. The air gently blows out of the vents and doesn't heat up the house so fast. In colder weather sometimes I turn on the blower via T-stat, or when the warm air plenum gets hot enough it will set off the fan limit switch inside the gas furnace automatically. Hope this helps. . . and doesn't confuse you more.


----------



## smokinj (Dec 12, 2009)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> lexybird said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




if your adding the wood furnace to your existing furnace its not a huge deal because your using the fans from it as well


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 12, 2009)

no, that's not too confusing and helps a little, cause it means I don't have to worry as much about those CFM ratings as I was. My current furnace (as best as I can tell from the crappy manual and online searches) has a blower rated at 2000cfms.

It might also be important to note that the furnace is 3 years old and some of the ductwork was redone at that time. it seems to be pretty balanced in terms of return air vents, etc.


----------



## Lifted4x4Astro (Dec 14, 2009)

I have a USSC 1537G and I will tell you now that it won't heat your house on the coldest days. I bought the 1537G because it was cheap and oil was too expensive. My house is around 1800 sf and the furnace keeps the basement hot too so add about 500 sf. Our house was built in the late 1800's and has all new windows and some of the rooms have been remodeled. Downstairs ceilings are 9' and upstairs are 8'. My attic only has a couple inches of insulation. Normally the 1537G keeps the house at 72-73 pretty easily. We only suffer on the windiest days. I burn through about 8 cord and use less than 50 gallons of oil per year. House is never less than 64*F.

For a house your size, I would look at a 1602M furnace if you go USSC.


----------



## john26 (Dec 14, 2009)

The usstove furnaces are American made my brother was looking at hot blast and clayton models,  I called usstove and they told me all the furnaces are american made.  Some of the stoves and pellets stoves are made over seas.
As far as the blower goes I use my blower on low (600 cfm) with out the gas furnace blower I have a parallel installation.  The wood furnace plenium ties directly into the main truck line not the gas furnace.  I also have a return duct tied into the wood furnace.  It was down in the low 20's last week the wood furnace heated the house great up in to the mid 70's with 3 out of 8 vents closed upstairs and 1 vent in the garage.


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 14, 2009)

thanks for that! I'm actually leaning towards the Firechief FC700, but for $200 more I can have the FC1100, so IF i do this, that's probably the way I'd go. Still up in the air about the whole thing, though. Sometimes I'm slow acting on these types of things, so I'll probably stare at them in the store for another year, and when i decide then I'll collect wood for another year. (I say that, but I can sometimes be a little impulsive, and as we just purchased the house, we'll be getting that 8K from the gov next spring, that might make me more likely to dive in head first)

Anyone here have experience with either of these two stoves?


----------



## john26 (Dec 14, 2009)

I was actually originally going to purchase a new firechief 500 I started looking on craigslist for used furnaces and found a 1 year old fire chief 500 for $500.  I drove about 1 hour to purchase it and it had been stolen from the ownwers rental property.  Bad news for both of us, but i about a month later i found a 20year old woodchuck 2900 for $350 on craigslist.  It need some electric work and new bricks not a big deal.  I have a total of $550 in the furnace not counting stove pipe or duct.
Any way after looking at both furnace in depth I like ythe way the woodchuck is built a little better over the fire chief.  I like the large rectangular plenum on top the and the shaker grate better  on the woodchuk better.  But after using the furnace i am not so sure about the secondary heat exchanger on it.  The efficency rating on the woodchuck is 78% that is hard to get.  The fire has to be very hot to engage the cat which means the fan has to be on then the house gets very hot.  Both furvnaces are well built it would be a toss up between the two.  I have looked at the energy king it is a very nice unit but it shold be for $3500.  If you are looking for a used unit there is a nice woodchuck 2900 just south of st. louis for $1400 with triple wall pipe on craigslist.


----------



## CrappieKeith (Dec 15, 2009)

I'd take a strong look at the ourSuper Jack 125
http://www.yukon-eagle.com/FURNACES/SUPERJACKADDONWOODFURNACE/tabid/59/Default.aspx
They are on sale and they fall into the biomass tax credit.


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 15, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:
			
		

> I'd take a strong look at the ourSuper Jack 125
> http://www.yukon-eagle.com/FURNACES/SUPERJACKADDONWOODFURNACE/tabid/59/Default.aspx
> They are on sale and they fall into the biomass tax credit.


A. Is the price listed a "sale" price? it doesn't seem to say on the website.
B. Am I right in seeing that it takes a 7" pipe? that might be a dealbreaker.
C. How do you know that they qualify for the tax credit? i didn't see that on the website or in the manual. [edit:it's hidden in their tax credit information page. I still don't find any efficiency ratings listed on the website...oh well]


----------



## CrappieKeith (Dec 15, 2009)

They normally sell for $2449 on sale for $2229 which is on our home page.
http://www.yukon-eagle.com/
You are approved to neck down or up 1".
Here is the link to our certificate that all of our furnaces are at least 75% as required by the Energy Star Tax Credit.
http://www.yukon-eagle.com/Portals/0/Certification_Statement.pdf

The button is right on the home page top right corner that has all of the info you'll need to know.


----------



## Danno77 (Dec 15, 2009)

gotchya, didn't catch the $200 off tag on the home page. found the pdf you mention, but it doesn't say anything about the particular efficiency rating for the stove other than it's >/= 75% (not being picky, was just curious)


----------



## CrappieKeith (Dec 15, 2009)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> gotchya, didn't catch the $200 off tag on the home page. found the pdf you mention, but it doesn't say anything about the particular efficiency rating for the stove other than it's >/= 75% (not being picky, was just curious)


What's the fuel source?
How much water is in it?
How often will the furnace be calling for heat? A hotter burn will be more efficient...
I'm trying to get you to understand this new method of testing is BS...it does allow US makers to compete with the Europeans as they use this lower heat method of testing which artificially inflates efficiencies by 10-12%
Bio bricks ran near 90% in our furnace but how many people are gonna burn wood logs that are wetter? Ya see the % means nothing. It is also almost lying on the manufactuers part to say ...HEY everyone will get 80% for example.
Flues draft differently.People have different size homes that are insulated differently which will change how often a furnace calls for heat. The more it calls for heat the more efficient it will be just as load sizes will change efficiency. A smaller load will take longer to satisfy that stat which will keep calling for heat to get satisfied making that fire burn hotter...

Ask any testing engineer and they all agree....I have already. Yet there are guidlines and so we follow suit and spend the money to have our furnace tested ,which they do fall into the above 75% or better.
I've looked at other sites.I have not seen any specific percentages and I challange you to get those numbers in the real world not sope testing facility were all of the condition are perfect for the testing which can also be modified to gain the % that they want to.
That was another discussion in getting bids for testing.

These are things the general public is not aware of...the dirty lil secret,but we are forced to fall into line by the rules of the tax credit.


Anything else you'd like to know......800-358-0060....we can really get into some stuff if you want to call me.


Danno....check out apples to apples...btus to btus..then look at the weights.
Look for an after burn.
Look for heat exchange surface area and look to see draft speeds in the manuals.
Note...a faster draft will run more heat up the flue being less efficient. There are only 8000 btu's per lb of biomass...(WOOD).
Look at brick and ask what density it is.We use 2700 degree brick for example.The more dense the better thermal mass it has.
Then look at where you are buying it.
Is there service?
Is it a retailer that has marked up the unit many dollars or is it the manufacture like we are?


----------



## webbie (Dec 17, 2009)

CrappieKeith said:
			
		

> I'd take a strong look at the ourSuper Jack 125
> http://www.yukon-eagle.com/FURNACES/SUPERJACKADDONWOODFURNACE/tabid/59/Default.aspx
> They are on sale and they fall into the biomass tax credit.



Keith, I think we have discussed this previously, but this site is not for promotion of your products...at all.

Please see:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Forum_Rules_for_Commercial_Members/
"If one of your primary reasons for being on the Forums is to get more business for your company, then we would ask that you contact us for paid advertising sponsorship programs as opposed to using"


----------



## CrappieKeith (Dec 18, 2009)

We will be contacting you shortly.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm too slow at making decisions. I've still been thinking about this and planning away. I'm leaning heavily towards the Firechief FC700.

Is there anybody on this forum burning with this furnace? I'm guessing that I'd need to have about 8 cords on hand to run it. Add that to my wood stove and that COULD be 11 cords in a year. ouch. I hope my numbers are off with that, but I'd want to be safe for when I start to burn.

The big holdup is still the chimney. I haven't decided the best route to do it. This impacts placement of the furnace, then I have clearances to deal with, then ductwork runs. 

I used 1700 therms of gas a couple of winters ago, but last winter I used just over 1400 so the furnace would need to do that...

My basic math tells me that 1700 therms is about (x100,000) 170,000,000 BTUs. estimate low that a cord is 17MBTUs that means ten cords MAX to do what my furnace did. But my furnace didn't do it well then. Then last year I had the wood stove and put about 2.5 cords through it. So either way I'm getting the same BTU estimates for total winter heating. I did do some more random sealing up of the joint with caulk, and some more window work, so every year I think the place gets a little less drafty. I bet my cord average for firewood is something more like 21-22MBTUs because of the oak mixed in there, but like I said before, that's just making sure I don't make errors in the wrong direction. 22MBTU per cord for 170MBTU to heat all winter comes out to 7+. For a big old house of this size I don't think that's horribly unreasonable.


----------



## Fsappo (Jan 5, 2011)

Just spend the money, get the Max Caddy from PSG.  Buy it last year so you can get the tax credit and be done with it.  Plenty of heat, long burns, great warranty, made in America and works better than a puppys peter


----------



## Como (Jan 5, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> I used 1700 therms of gas a couple of winters ago, but last winter I used just over 1400 so the furnace would need to do that...
> 
> My basic math tells me that 1700 therms is about (x100,000) 170,000,000 BTUs. estimate low that a cord is 17MBTUs that means ten cords MAX to do what my furnace did. But my furnace didn't do it well then. Then last year I had the wood stove and put about 2.5 cords through it. So either way I'm getting the same BTU estimates for total winter heating. I did do some more random sealing up of the joint with caulk, and some more window work, so every year I think the place gets a little less drafty. I bet my cord average for firewood is something more like 21-22MBTUs because of the oak mixed in there, but like I said before, that's just making sure I don't make errors in the wrong direction. 22MBTU per cord for 170MBTU to heat all winter comes out to 7+. For a big old house of this size I don't think that's horribly unreasonable.



Unfortunately there is one factor that you have left out, the relative efficiencies of the furnaces.

I think you mentioned the Gas Furnace was 93%, do not know what the wood would be except it would be a lot less.

I have a similar building construction to deal with, The major loss once you have dealt with the roof are the walls. Unless you are going to strip all the plaster off, insulate and then re trim etc, there is not a lot you can do. You can insulate the outside, visually that might not be acceptable.

Yes you can insulate underneath and the foundation walls, but the walls are the biggy.

40 +- btu sq ft sounds right to me.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 5, 2011)

Como said:
			
		

> Danno77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are totally right about the Efficiencies of the wood furnace. I totally didn't calculate that into the mix! I should probably add another 30% on top to cover for that.

Let me run the numbers real fast I used 170MBTU to produce (93% efficiency) 158.1MBTUs of heat for the house. a Wood Furnace burning at 70% efficiency (Do you think I'm close with that???) would take 13 Cords.

Can't insulate the outside of the home, it's brick construction. There is an empty attic space that's over the kitchen. It has 6 inches of insulation over it, but I think I'm going to do something extra there. We are talking about a 12x25ft area, so it could really help.

I was in the hip space at the finished attic, and I think there is a little something I can do in there, too.

Question on clearances. One place I'd like to consider for the wood furnace is located directly under a return air duct. Clearance to the Ceiling in the basement is likely pushing it without a shield, and then take this thing and we are talking about a foot over the top of the stove. can this count as a shield? I'm inclined to think so, but it's galvanized. shouldn't reach temps that would gas, but just wanted to get opinions here...


----------



## JustWood (Jan 5, 2011)

Some words of wisdom from experience.
You get what you pay for with furnaces.
I've got a Wood Chuck 526 and I love it. Especially now that I've worked out some issues I've had with it for about 6-7 years.
But given a do over I wood go with the Caddy or Yukon. I bought the WC even after research of other units  due to the fact that so many units in my area are still going after 20+ years.
Clearances are minimal. I can put my hand on the jacket of mine when it's running full out and not get burned. Shield it.
I don't like the 1 hole plenum on the FC unit. Mine was fully open on top and I had a box plenum made.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 5, 2011)

Closest Caddy dealer is 3 hours away. Should I let that bother me? How much are we talking for the add on furnace? the BTU and efficiency ratings on it look good (for a furnace)


----------



## JustWood (Jan 5, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> Closest Caddy dealer is 3 hours away. Should I let that bother me? How much are we talking for the add on furnace? the BTU and efficiency ratings on it look good (for a furnace)



I woodn't let it bother me. Any good HVAC guy can install one. I did my installation myself.
There isn't really anything that can go wrong with furnaces that isn't plug and play.


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 5, 2011)

Have you airsealed the attic? That is the number one place to seal and button up. A regular furnace will heat the home, but will require wood to be fed like a freight train to keep something like that warm. I agree with the Max Caddy. Its the largest woodfurnace that I know that has clean burning capabilities on it. No doubt you will burn some wood, but it will be much less with a unit that is efficient. I love our Caddy, its been a very good furnace.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 5, 2011)

laynes69 said:
			
		

> Have you airsealed the attic? That is the number one place to seal and button up.


The attic is finished, so my hands are tied with much there. There are eave vents and ridge vents, one side of the attic has a hip space that you can access through some doors. When I poke my head in there I can see that there is insulation on the roof itself, but for a good portion of the attic I see insulation like on the left side of this picture. i think that the previous owner did a crappy job after repairing tornado damage. I think his reasoning was that the built in dressers provide a good buffer, so they didn't require insulation.
I'd really like to completely do something different as best as I can in there. I have a good mind to open up the space above the rooms to see what is there. At a minimum I'll insulate the floor of that hip space (since it sits right above both bedrooms on the room below). 

Now, there is another completely different portion of the house, which I mentioned being above the kitchen. That area is pretty well sealed, but doesn't have a whole lot in terms of blow in insulation that is from LONNNGGGG ago. The intent for this space is to finish it into a master bath, when i do that I'll insulate the roof there, so I've been dragging my feet with insulating the floor of that space. It used to be a finished Servant's quarters about 100 years ago, so there is a bunch of lathe and plaster in horrible shape that needs to come down, otherwise I'd just go ahead and insulate the roof now.

I'm due for a new roof at some point in the near future. I've considered a metal roof. my parents just got one and they did it by attaching 2x4s (flatwise) and then putting the roofing on that. Wonder if a better method would be to add 1.5" insulation foam in those voids between the 2x4s.


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 5, 2011)

Have you considered an energy audit with blower door and thermal imaging? I have witnessed first hand crappy work where I have torn it out and redone the work properly. Makes a huge world of difference when things are done right. The problem is alot of those leaks in your home were probably covered and not taken care of. If its shotty work then tearing it out makes things easier.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 5, 2011)

laynes69 said:
			
		

> Have you considered an energy audit with blower door and thermal imaging? I have witnessed first hand crappy work where I have torn it out and redone the work properly. Makes a huge world of difference when things are done right. The problem is alot of those leaks in your home were probably covered and not taken care of. If its shotty work then tearing it out makes things easier.


I have considered it, but don't know where to begin to get one. I've heard that NG companies do them, but I don't think mine does. They have a "home energy audit" button on their website, but it just leads you to a page shown below.


----------



## Como (Jan 6, 2011)

Certainly one possible option, depending, could be to add a couple of inches of XPS insulation to the deck prior to re roofing. Cutting around battens would cause thermal bridging and be much more hassle. 

It may or may not be practical in your situation. Or cost effective. Certainly unlikely to be so unless you need to re roof at the same time.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 6, 2011)

I would be replacing the gas furnace with a larger one. It is obvious that the furnace is undersized from the get go. I like burning wood as much as the next guy but your problem is an undersized gas furnace.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 6, 2011)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> I would be replacing the gas furnace with a larger one. It is obvious that the furnace is undersized from the get go. I like burning wood as much as the next guy but your problem is an undersized gas furnace.


Have you talked to my wife or something? It's in the plan, too. I want both furnaces, I want the wood burning one first. she wants the gas one first.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 12, 2011)

Stupid cheap crappy fix.

A tornado hit my house before I moved here. Previous owner sold it to a guy who then fixed it on the cheap (obviously). I think you can see which half of the roof he fixed. Now I know where a good portion of my heat is going. Not looking forward to figuring out how to add insulation  there...

on the different angled piece of roof right below there I finished an attic space to make it into a closet. I must have done alright on insulating it, because the snow is still there!

Kinda pissed about this, and I'm not sure why i've never noticed it before. I've lived here for about 4 years.


----------



## laynes69 (Jan 12, 2011)

Pretty obvious. Funny how some who fix things don't care. Your losing a ton of heat not only there but under the floor of the attic. If that home is balloon framed those open cavities into the attic probably weren't capped. I capped over 32 cavities into the attic that were opened and it cut the heat loss drastically. I have a little more sealing in our attic then I will blow another 12+ inches into the attic.


----------



## Danno77 (Jan 12, 2011)

not balloon framed.

Also, because the ceiling is essentially right on the rafters in the finished attic, getting insulation in there is gonna require i rip out the walls,etc... at least that's what I fear.


----------



## sdrobertson (Jan 13, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

> not balloon framed.
> 
> Also, because the ceiling is essentially right on the rafters in the finished attic, getting insulation in there is gonna require i rip out the walls,etc... at least that's what I fear.



Might be easier to take off the shingles and sheeting and insulate from above. This is what I did on a friend's log home with finished cathedral ceilings.  Not fun, but less work than going up through the ceiling and it allowed more insulation with building up the roof.


----------



## Pyromaniac (Jan 13, 2011)

Congratulations Danno, you've found your "smoking gun"!

I wouldn't spend another minute or dime focusing on anything else OTHER than figuring out how to correctly insulate that heat sucking attic space!

I'm slowly tracking down all my little "smoking guns" too. I've followed your thread because a few years back I grew tired of $400 monthly heating bills and added an add-on furnace. I went the cheap route and bought a clearance US stove Hotblast 1557m and am satisfied with it for the initial money invested. If I knew how much I enjoyed the wood gathering and heating I would have spent alot more for a better unit I know now.

HOWEVER just recently I've taken care of what I should have started with in the first place: Windows and Insulation. Even after burning a few years with my add-on I cannot believe how a recent change in adding attic insulation in an older added on 20X14' room and replacing some south facing old drafty windows has made a difference to my home's comfort level. Cutting down on the drafts even makes 67 feel alot more comfortable when I first get home to restoke the wood furnace.

INSULATE FIRST. Then get a new woodburner(because 74 feels spectacular and you'll never set a thermostat to that! lol!)

Good Luck!


----------

