# Are replacement windows a fad?



## Adios Pantalones (Jun 26, 2008)

I looked on a site- maybe DIY.com, and they had several articles on replacing windows.  A couple of articles made the claim that in most cases replacing a single pane window with a modern double pane is a waste unless it's just for looks.  They said that attic insulation and a few other things went much further, and that replacing windows was sort of a fad as of late.

Now I have leaky poor fitting windows- so I really need new ones.  They don't lock all the way and I can feel a draft out of them.

So my question is- do people focus on the wrong things in energy savings?  Are we penny wise and pound foolish?  Should most new woodstove buyers looking to save on heating be doing something simpler and more basic first- like insulating attics?


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2008)

In terms of heat saved per dollar, I think you may be right that attic insulation is one of the first.

BUT

Windows do lose a tremendous amount of heat......

Something as simple as a well insulated window shade can make a big difference- especially when you open and close it at the right time. Way back when, our shop sold and installed Window Quilts - I put them on our home (single insulated windows) and they made cold rooms much warmer.

I guess that it always depends what you are stepping up from an to. Single to double glass by itself may not make the difference, but add the specialty coatings, the gas (argon?) and the tightness (as compared to very old windows) and you may have something.

We were taught - rule of thumb - that even double windows lose 6x the heat of the same wall area. That would mean that the sizes of windows in the house under consideration is very important also.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 26, 2008)

Good points.  My downstairs has like 12-13 windows.  That is a considerable amount of our wall area, and we are shaded from the South.  This probably means that doing windows in my circumstance makes more of a difference.


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## begreen (Jun 26, 2008)

Some window designs are just awful and leak air like sieves. Often older windows have no seals at all or they have deteriorated badly. Other windows are all metal frames and conduct heat out of the room (and condense moisture on the inside). These should be replaced and will pay back in heat saved. There are even some newer designed windows that maintain R5 to R8 insulation value. They can be pricey, but help reduce the 6x heat loss to 2x. For large windows that can be significant. And if one lives on a noisy street, double pane windows can help reduce the noise.


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## Telco (Jun 26, 2008)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> I looked on a site- maybe DIY.com, and they had several articles on replacing windows.  A couple of articles made the claim that in most cases replacing a single pane window with a modern double pane is a waste unless it's just for looks.  They said that attic insulation and a few other things went much further, and that replacing windows was sort of a fad as of late.
> 
> Now I have leaky poor fitting windows- so I really need new ones.  They don't lock all the way and I can feel a draft out of them.
> 
> So my question is- do people focus on the wrong things in energy savings?  Are we penny wise and pound foolish?  Should most new woodstove buyers looking to save on heating be doing something simpler and more basic first- like insulating attics?



Yes, they do, like replacing new appliances with energy star appliances.  Your windows are defective per your post, so I'd replace them.  On the other hand, my windows are 4 years old and while they are pretty crappy vinyl frame windows that anyone with a pocket knife could break into by just cutting around the frame, the money I'd spend replacing them would not be saved back, likely at all, since they do retain heat in the winter and reject heat in the summer.  If your windows weren't bad already then the money would be better spent on insulation, but since you have to replace the windows due to defectiveness replace them with the best you can afford.  If possible, while doing this window replacement you might also consider filling a few windows in.  Easy to do and still look right if the house is sided, but difficult and expensive if rocked or bricked.  If you have siding, just fill in the offending windows, peel off the old siding, slap a few inches of styrofoam around the house and reside.


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## Vic99 (Jun 26, 2008)

Last year I replaced 3 very leaky ancient bedroom windows, the sum probably equal to the surface area of 2.5 standard double hung, with about 85 square feet of double pane injected, UV coating whatever . . . plus a 65 inch base half round window above.  It made a big difference in how the room feels.  Obviously lots of heat was lost where the frames were not tight.

That said, I wanted data.  I did an experiment comparing the effect of open drapes vs. closed drapes at night in that room.   Starting outdoor and bedroom temps were the same and starting outdoor temps were within a few degrees.   End result, the drapes kept the room 2 degrees F warmer (65 F vs. 67 F).

I'd spend the money on a simple double pane replacement (they are fairly cheap now) if an old leaky window couldn't be made significantly better. The draft is usually too much.  Otherwise, I'd only replace if I were doing something to the wall anyway.

I think attic insualtion is the best thing followed by insulating where the foundation meets the frame of the house.  Foam under outlets and light switches is another easy significant fix when you look at cost and effort vs. impact.


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## burntime (Jun 26, 2008)

I am almost finished replacing all my windows.  1st is definietly attic insulation, next caulk all those gaps  I am doing anderson 400 series low e double pane full windows.  The inserts do not address the area under the case mouldings.  Mine had minimal insulation.  The new windows have fire/ice membrane over the opening, were siliconed to the frame, and I blew minimal expanding foam in the openings to FILL the cavity.  It was like 5 bucks a window but well worth it for the foam.  On the bottom sill where the gap is larger I foamed towards the outside and fiberglassed the big area.  I have a brick home so full replacement windows with a nailing fin can be done!  The difference is incredible  My old were single pane and sealled well with storms, they just were a son of a gone to open.  If you spend the money get low e, they may limit some solar gain but the eliminate the heat in the summer!  I bought my windows for a standard say 3-4 window for about 300 bucks each and installed with another 125 in material between foam, oak casing, brick mold etc...  Renewal by andersons are like 850 a window.  I know this is long winded but I can say from experience that the "inserts" only address half the problem.


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## MainePellethead (Jun 26, 2008)

I absolutely recommend windows if you can do it.  My house is only 22 years old and had the wood tone windows of the 80's with pain in the butt screening. Well I made the plunge 4 years ago(before I had  the pellet stove) to get all new replacement windows and I havent looked back since. VERY well spent cash.  My windows I thought wasnt losing heat...I tell ya...as soon as my first winter arrived with the new windows...I could keep my thermostat down at least 3-4 degrees comfortably and thats significant in todays prices.  And I agree.....it matters on the window. A local place here distributes Stanley Pro Fit Windows(life time warranty) and I bought their top of the line ones and I love them. I didnt like the quality of HD's cheaper ones....but to each his own.


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## WoodMann (Jun 26, 2008)

Aaaaaah, just put a beach towel over the window when it get's cold...............


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## burntime (Jun 26, 2008)

Kinda defeats the purpose of a window :lol:


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 26, 2008)

My problem on cost is that I live in a log home so it'd look stupid having anything but wood interior.  I may go for the combo wood interior and vinyl/whatever exterior but they're expensive.


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## burntime (Jun 26, 2008)

Anderson I think are Vinyl, pellas seem decent, and they are aluminum.  The verdict is not out which is better but everything I see is that the vinyl should win.  With aluminum you could "woodgrain" it pretty easy with some faux paint texture if you really wanted to be anal about it.  Myself in a log home...I would try it without and probably texture it.


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## SteveT (Jun 26, 2008)

Three years ago I had an energy audit. Based on the results I spent $1700 on improved insulation ($3200 total minus $1500 rebate from the utilities). My oil consumption dropped by between 15% and 20% (measured by K-factor, or degree-days per gallon of heating oil used). I have already saved more than I spent.

Last year I spent about ten times as much in replacing the windows. The windows were original single-pane wood windows in a house built in 1941.  They did however have fairly high quality aluminum storm windows (vintage early 1960's). Although there is a vast improvement in the aesthetics there has been no discernible energy improvement.  

I am not sorry I replaced the windows because the house looks a whole lot nicer. But if I want to realize a net savings based on oil use I'll have to live another 150 years or so.


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 26, 2008)

Engine- that's exactly inline with what they were saying.


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## burntime (Jun 26, 2008)

I am wondering if you guys have a much milder winter then we do in Wisconsin?  My first window purchase was a 70x55 front window and 14ft of windows on the other side of my livingroom, my usage year to year for the same heating degree days was down 15%, I tracked it on 3 identical months.  Now that is a large area of windows but you get the idea.  It seems to make a bigger difference the lower you go past 30 degrees...no icing on the windows and no cold resonating off of them.  We had 15 below for 1 night last winter and the insert still kept up untill  late in the night.  If you have mild winters like KY you would benefit from the ac savings on the other end...mild inbetween weather then it would take a long time to recoup.


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## Jim K in PA (Jun 26, 2008)

This is a touchy and somewhat subjective subject.  It should not be, but is.  People spend big $$ to replace their windows and are often convinced to do so by good sales techniques rather than through rational analysis.   They also want to believe that the investment was worthwhile, when often it is not (financially at least).

As has been pointed out, windows in and of themselves, are difficult to construct in a manner that will allow them to function and appear the way people want them to without creating a ready path for heat to escape your home.  However, if you have older, true divided light windows with wood frames, you can make them seal better and perform nearly as well as a newer double glazed window.  Spring bronze weather stripping, neoprene bulb seals, proper glazing and good fit will reduce infiltration losses to those of newer windows, and sometimes better.  This reduction in infiltration will account for 90% of the "feels warmer" effect as well as the real reduction in heat loss.  Yes, inert gases can reduce transmission/radiant losses compared to regular air filled double pane windows, but not to an extent equal to the cost for the feature.  Furthermore, thermopane seals fail over time, allowing not only the escape of the "argon", but also the introduction of moisture.  Moisture will not only ruin the appearance of the window, but will dramatically increase the rate of conductive losses.  I have 23 double glazed windows in my home that were installed c.1978-1980.  19 of them have failed seals with moisture in between the glazing.  

We live in an early 19th century farm house.  All of our windows are being replaced (by me) with salvaged 19th century wood sashes with modern seals in new frames, with properly fitting outer storm windows.  Upper sashes are fixed and sealed to the jambs.  The larger low-exchange air space between the sash and storm will have as much or more insulative value than a 5mm air gap in a double glazed window.  I will have less than $150 per window opening invested in my windows, and they will look better and perform as well as any modern window.

I am not saying replacement windows are wrong for everyone, but I submit that more replacements are being bought than are necessarily justified.  $30 worth of weather stripping is a lot cheaper than $250 for a new window that will fail in 20 years.

Just my $.045 (adjusted for rising steel and oil prices . . .  ;-) )


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## Adios Pantalones (Jun 26, 2008)

Jim- that's sort of why I brought it up.  I can see people not wanting to descend into buyer's remorse when a few simple things would have a big impact... I'd like a wood boiler system, but windows are first for me (have insulated attic, and continue to track down leaks, which spring up in my '79 log home frequently).

Of course if you have leaky windows, or they're ugly, or what not- replacing may be worth it as some testimony above indicates.  In NH we have winters... maybe not as bad as Wisconsin, but not a lot would call it really mild.  Comparing one year to another, or one month to the same month then next year is a tough way to get real data as every year is different.  I have an uncomfortable draft on my neck when I sit on my couch in January... like to fix that.


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## backpack09 (Jun 26, 2008)

One more not to add... In this housing market, if you are looking to sell... No one is going to buy your house unless they have atleast vinyl/double pain replacement windows.  At least up here in taxachusetts.


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## MainePellethead (Jun 26, 2008)

burntime said:
			
		

> I am wondering if you guys have a much milder winter then we do in Wisconsin?  My first window purchase was a 70x55 front window and 14ft of windows on the other side of my livingroom, my usage year to year for the same heating degree days was down 15%, I tracked it on 3 identical months.  Now that is a large area of windows but you get the idea.  It seems to make a bigger difference the lower you go past 30 degrees...no icing on the windows and no cold resonating off of them.  We had 15 below for 1 night last winter and the insert still kept up untill  late in the night.  If you have mild winters like KY you would benefit from the ac savings on the other end...mild inbetween weather then it would take a long time to recoup.



I received approx. the same results burntime.  When you have drafts in your windows...no one is going to tell me that you are not going to save $$ from replacing the windows. I have saved myself  in $$ as I raised the comfort level  from drafts that I never realized I had until I replaced all of the windows. Not to mention the ease of cleaning "and" the icing etc as you mentioned. Theres more pro's to cons for replacing  windows. I chose replacements which are much cheaper than new construction and just as great of a benefit.


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## myzamboni (Jun 26, 2008)

Jim K in PA said:
			
		

> This is a touchy and somewhat subjective subject.  It should not be, but is.  People spend big $$ to replace their windows and are often convinced to do so by good sales techniques rather than through rational analysis.   They also want to believe that the investment was worthwhile, when often it is not (financially at least).
> 
> As has been pointed out, windows in and of themselves, are difficult to construct in a manner that will allow them to function and appear the way people want them to without creating a ready path for heat to escape your home.  However, if you have older, true divided light windows with wood frames, you can make them seal better and perform nearly as well as a newer double glazed window.  Spring bronze weather stripping, neoprene bulb seals, proper glazing and good fit will reduce infiltration losses to those of newer windows, and sometimes better.  This reduction in infiltration will account for 90% of the "feels warmer" effect as well as the real reduction in heat loss.  Yes, inert gases can reduce transmission/radiant losses compared to regular air filled double pane windows, but not to an extent equal to the cost for the feature.  Furthermore, thermopane seals fail over time, allowing not only the escape of the "argon", but also the introduction of moisture.  Moisture will not only ruin the appearance of the window, but will dramatically increase the rate of conductive losses.  I have 23 double glazed windows in my home that were installed c.1978-1980.  19 of them have failed seals with moisture in between the glazing.
> 
> ...



Valid point except nobody out my way has double-hung and have no clue what a storm window is(unless they are a transplant.  I did replace our single-pane casement (crank to open) with double-pane sliders.  The rooms are warmer in winter, cooler in summer, and the noise tranmission is seriously reduced (used to hear my neighbor start their car when I was in the back of our house, now I can't, nor can I hear the trash truck).


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## Redox (Jun 26, 2008)

There's an advertisement circulating around here that claims you can save "up to 45%" on your energy costs with replacement windows and the number are supposed to be supported by DOE research.  I think they would have to be some pretty poor windows to start with to pull this off.  Since the window area in a wall is typically less than 10% and the replacement cost is so much higher than just insulation, I don't think they will really "pay" for themselves, particularly the Gucci brands with the triple pane rare earth gas filled kevlar reinforced frames.

We used to have steel frame jalousie windows in our first home that were so bad, they would blow off the window film that we tried to put up.  In cold weather, they used to freeze up and have 1/4 -1/2 inch of ice on them.  We ended up replacing them, frame and all, with some vinyl builder windows.  The effects were incredible, but I won't say that they paid for themselves.  We ended up moving a year later!  House #2 had just had replacement windows put in right before it was sold, so we didn't worry about it.

We moved into our current house about 8 years ago and the windows were in bad shape; not really leaky, but storms were missing and they would have needed a lot of work to make them look good.  There was very little discussion when I suggested replacing them to the wife.  I paid my BIL to replace them with some locally made replacement windows and they look and work great.  Definitely money well spent, but may not ever pay for themselves.

FWIW, I have played with some heat loss software to see what the effect of various improvements would make.  All the losses showed up as infiltration, which can be sealed up with a few tubes of caulk and some weatherstripping.  Even a single pane window isn't that bad if you have storms and a shade.  Best available technology is great if you can afford it, but a little caulk and insulation goes a long way, IMHO.

Chris


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## yankeeswapper (Jun 27, 2008)

For what its worth, I installed hundreds of vinyl windows over the past 15 years as a deleading contractor and later as my wrists wore out, a renovation contractor. You have to consider several factors, as you seem to already have. The ease of use and DIY installation cannot be overstressed. Just make sure you use minimally expanding foam when filling in voids in the frame area. If you have weights and pulleys, tear 'em out and insulate that cavity. If you have a log home, there won't be much of a gap there anyway. Spend a little extra on a window that has the "look" that you like. The esthetic value is important as well. I built several log homes with a friend who had a dealership for New England Log Homes in Belchertown. You can get wood thermopane windows that look nice in a log home. Hope this helps. One other thing, the ease of cleaning is nice too, mine get tilted out once a year.   I've installed 20 vinyl windows in our 1840 Greek Revival and if I can afford it, I will be replacing another 26 within the next two years. Every window means less wood to split !!


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## Dix (Jun 27, 2008)

> Now I have leaky poor fitting windows- so I really need new ones.  They don’t lock all the way and I can feel a draft out of them.



AP, I was where you are until this spring. And last year I heated w/oil !

My windows were mostly 32 YO Anderson wood/vinyl. Most didn't close. Some didn't lock ( to atleast give me a feeling of heat worthiness . Last winter was a horrible mess. Which is how I ended up here. 

Anyways, I digress.

I bit the bullet with my refund $$$$'s  this year and went to town with new windows, and a front door

Before ..winter of "06.






last month..note the log cabin thingy. The whole house used to look like that 










3 windows replaced, and 3 in the main objective to go






I went with Home Depot windows. At roughly$150 a pop. Sweat Equity labor.

I can feel the differance in the house already, especially when the windows AC's are on. You do notice the missing drafts. I can't wait for winter, and not to feel them.

My 2 cents..go for it if you can, and insulate the heck around the windows before the sheetrock/plywood/inside whatever goes on.

**hyper links to save on band space**


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## precaud (Jun 27, 2008)

A couple years ago, I read a book called "Moveable Insulation," dealing primarily with window insulation. It showed that the knee of the R value curve for optimum cost/benefit is somewhere in the R5 to R8 zone. So I cut some 2" styrofoam panels (R8) to snugly fit in all the windows in the living space (all single pane) during the winter. On the south side, they go up at sundown and come down at sunup. On the east side, they stay up all winter (covered by drapes.) And on the west side, they come down at noon and go back up at sundown. It's made a huge difference in heat retention. Some day I'll make it look snazzy with insulated shutters but this works for now. My experience has convinced me that a double pane window, regardless of construction, cannot match an insulation panel for heat retention.

I will need to replace some windows at some point. Like others here, I'm not sure if double pane is worth it or not, especially when there's daytime solar gain involved.


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## kalevi (Jun 27, 2008)

I had all my windows replaced. I went from double hung wood frame to crank open or closed argon filled double pane with the dual low emissivity coating. The interesting thing is that the windows were designed so that the base of the frame has very little conduction. As for total energy savings, probably not too much. Normal winter to winter variability washed out the difference in my oil bill.  I do notice in summer that when you walk past the windows, you do not feel much radiated heat coming from outside and reverse in winter, you don't feel heat being sucked out of you when you get near the windows. The argon filled windows also cut down on outside noise much better than the previous windows. Also, I do not have to scrape and paint them every couple of years.


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## MainePellethead (Jun 27, 2008)

[/quote]

Valid point except nobody out my way has double-hung and have no clue what a storm window is(unless they are a transplant.  I did replace our single-pane casement (crank to open) with double-pane sliders.  The rooms are warmer in winter, cooler in summer, and the noise tranmission is seriously reduced (used to hear my neighbor start their car when I was in the back of our house, now I can't, nor can I hear the trash truck).[/quote]


I fully agree with ya on noise too. As mentioned i replaced my windows with replacements....as well as closing in my porch with "new construction" giant sliding windows(8 of them, energy stars with a wider gas gap)....I have a Bose Wave System i leave on the porch...I can crank that thing....with windows closed I cant even hear it lol....same with outside noise....i can hardly hear it if at all.


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## d.n.f. (Jun 27, 2008)

Can tell you that in Canada we have a fed govt program for eco energy upgrades for your house.   So if I upgrade my attic insulation I might get a $500 rebate.  If I change my basement insulation from nothing to R10 I might get $250 (numbers off the top of my head as I haven't looked at the form in awhile).  But.... windows and doors are only $35 a piece if you change to energy star rating.  I talked to the inspector and the rationale behind it is that going from r20 to R40 in the roof is huge and will net you big savings; while going from an R1 crappy window to R5 for a good window isn't going to do much for your total energy savings.

The incentives are for more insulation and sealing air leakage (they do an air test on your house).


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## jebatty (Jun 28, 2008)

For us, especially my wife, the driving factor was comfort. With our old windows, we couldn't sit by them in the winter due to the cold drafts. We bit the bullet big time, and put in R8 rated windows, new construction type. These won't payback cash in two lifetimes, but they were an instant hit on comfort, plus we live in the woods and on a lake, and we don't have a single window covering. Why spend big bucks on windows just to cover them up? may as well have a wall with a picture.

Now when its -35F outside, howling winds, blowing snow, we sit by the windows and actually enjoy the snowstorm; and in the summer the lightning storms over the lake are better than any fireworks display.

An architectural point. Consider staying away from traditional wide window casings, and go with as small as you can to cover the gap between the wall and window jam. Large casings draw your eyes to the frame of the window; small casings draw your eye to the window itself. If you have something worth looking out to see, keep that the focus of your view.


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## jtp10181 (Jun 28, 2008)

I just read the first page and saw the talk about the log house and having to match the windows. One local place here is advertizing these windows a lot. They say they can be stained to match your exiting wood work, or painted or whatever. The frames are made out of fiberglass and I think they have a lifetime warranty.

http://www.infinitywindows.com/


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## Thomask9590 (Jun 28, 2008)

You have got to check these guys out. Best window best warranty...O.K I am a little biased because I am the plant manager for this company. We do offer a life time warranty, we can paint the interior a different color than the exterior. We will paint to any color you would like, meaning we also paint to a customer color of the customers choice. We now offer triple pane as well. Check it out for your self and ask around before you buy. Don't believe any sales guy they are all very hungry for work. http://www.paradigmwindows.com/

I would appreciate any feedback.


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## precaud (Jun 28, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> FWIW, I have played with some heat loss software to see what the effect of various improvements would make.  *All the losses showed up as infiltration*, which can be sealed up with a few tubes of caulk and some weatherstripping.  Even a single pane window isn't that bad if you have storms and a shade.  Best available technology is great if you can afford it, but a little caulk and insulation goes a long way, IMHO.
> Chris



Except for the part about all the losses being air infiltration, I agree. Testimonies comparing old, drafty windows with new construction types claiming high R values are comparing apples to oranges. And I remain completely skeptical that any window which you can see through with clarity can deliver R8.

Those of you thinking of spending big bux on windows, please read the book I referenced above before you do it. I found it in our public library.


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## begreen (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't remember the brand (PPG?) but my brother in law's greenhouse addition has R10 glass. I've been there in December and even at night the glass feels about the same temp as a wall. Quite remarkable. I believe there are also some Canadian windows that are rated R10 (triple pane).


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## SteveT (Jun 28, 2008)

One other item that I think is peculiar is the way the window companies state that the energy savings with their product will be tremendous and then back up their claim with a nearly worthless guarantee. 

In my opinion the worst offender is NewPro. They are a major player in the southern New England market and from what I have heard they make a quality product. So good that their advertisements include a GUARANTEE of 40% savings on your fuel consumption or they'll pay the difference. Very attractive, eh?

But read the details of the guarantee which states that the maximum amount they will pay under the guarantee is $500!  So spend $25,000 expecting huge fuel savings and if it doesn't pan out they give back 2% of the price. Big deal.


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## TMonter (Jun 28, 2008)

I switched from aluminum frame to vinyl frame windows on the front of our house this year (with low-e glass). The rooms are about 5-7 degrees cooler this year during the peak daytime.

Windows if installed in the right conditions can offer a huge savings.

The biggest problem with my old aluminum frame windows is they hadn't been sealed to the sash so air just leaked by. Was a pretty crappy job by the contractor who built the house in 77'.


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## jebatty (Jun 29, 2008)

> And I remain completely skeptical that any window which you can see through with clarity can deliver R8.



Can't testify to the accuracy of the rating of our R8 rated windows, but what I can say is that they are the approximate equivalent of 4 pane: two glass layers (inside and outside) with two sheets of clear plastic between, gas filled, and coated to reflect infrared. Infrared, inside or outside, is reflected back, which means summer outside heat does not get in and inside winter heat stays in. Also, low angle solar gets in during the winter, good passive solar. Our 4 foot eaves block summer solar.

No frost, no condensation, and we get -35F during the winter. Even the window over the kitchen sink, with hot water in the sink, will not show any condensation. Windows are warm to the touch, no drafts. We have 26 feet of glass across the front of our house, and with howling winter winds, -35F, you can sit right by the windows and feel no drafts.

These are no longer being made, or I would be a very good salesman for them. Be assured, although the price can be very high, there are exceptionally performing windows on the market. U factors ranging from 0.20 to 0.08 (R5 to R12). These may be center of glass ratings, but the framing of some windows is also very high tech and exceptionally efficient.


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## crazy_dan (Jun 29, 2008)

let me think  $10 roll of plastic, lattice boards I have been using the last 5 years and concrete form nails (the ones with the double heads) I have been using the last 5 years, a ladder and an after noon in the fall and one in the spring. or a few thousand dollars to replace the windows, think I will continue to plastic the windows I have for now, I have replaced 4 windows down stairs and 3 up stairs with double pane low E and argon but that was because they had broke and the frames were bad too. single pane 4 light windows. they are probably older than me. they sill have window weights to hold them open.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 29, 2008)

"Last year I replaced all the windows in my house with those expensive double-pane energy-efficient kind.

But this week, I got a call from the contractor complaining that his work had been completed a whole year and I had yet to pay for them.

Boy, oh boy, did we go around!

Just because I'm blond doesn't mean that I am automatically stupid.

So, I proceeded to tell him just what his fast-talking sales guy had told me last year...that in one year the windows would pay for themselves.

There was silence on the other end of the line, so I just hung up, and he hasn't called back. Guess he felt really stupid, huh???"


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## jebatty (Jun 29, 2008)

lol...lol...lol


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## Redox (Jun 30, 2008)

Great!  Y'all got this thread moved to the ASH CAN.  

Chris


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## begreen (Jun 30, 2008)

actually it started out in the ash can, but moved to the green room because it is a worthwhile topic.


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## rowerwet (Sep 7, 2008)

I have a 100+ yr old new englander, after burning 600 gal of oil for winter '02 (with the heat at 64) I put plastic over all the windows for the next winter. that winter I noticed how the plasitc bowed out and poped when doors were opened and shut, also my bedroom windows flaped in the wind. I got 5 windows installed by home depot, the four upstairs windows and one in my kitchen (the coldest room in the house). the next winter I burned about 500 gal of oil and had warmer rooms upstairs (the bedrooms). I hate these windows! they are single hung, double pane, tilt wash, the upper window does not open (I couldn't afford to get double hung), the child latches fall out after the first time you bump them hard and the condensation vents at the bottom stick open or shut all the time( causing my upstairs windows to freeze shut). and all that for $2400!
     Three years ago I got window world windows installed in the rest of my house, the price was $199 per window installed. window world is a national company that has an interesting pricing system, the window- double hung, tilt wash, two safety stops, two window latches, and a metal overlap groove at the middle that locks the upper and lower windows together when latched to stop prying. the window costs $249 (current advertised price, was $189 when I bought) no mater what the size up to a very large maximum. then there is a cost sheet for the options, at the time a screen cost $11 per window, glazing was so much, a grill was so much per pane (installed between the panes), argon inbetween the panes was so much, etc. they only come in white, but for the money I've only seen one company cheaper and I don't know about thier quality. 
    the windows were installed in december and I noticed the change right away, I actualy had to shut the vent on some of my baseboards because the room was too hot. Now I burn about 400 gal of oil a year with the thermostat set at 64 and the curtains don't flap in the wind. the windows have stood up very well, I don't have any complaints and they are a million times better than I had before. I am realy thinking about replacing the home depot windows with window world ones and using the home depot ones on my screen porch, it has those lousy jalosuy windows that are good for nothing.


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## sinnian (Sep 7, 2008)

I re-did our master bedroom last February and took all the molding off around the windows and used the "window/door" spray foam insulation around them.  Prior to this, while painting one of the windows the sash broke at the bottom.  I put it together as best as I could until I could get a replacement (that was a fiasco - got it in July), and even though there was a small gap on the bottom between the glass and what was left of the sash the room was warmer then when the window was unbroken, without the spray foam insulation.

As a result, I will be removing ALL the window trim in my house and insulating them better.


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## akhilljack (Sep 12, 2008)

i have about a 1500 sqft house that had wood framed double pain windows about 25 years old that leaked like crazy. for heat here we use oil because propane some times freezes at 40 below zero (well it turns to liguid instead of the gas that fumes off the top in the bottle of propane, the fumes is what you burn i think) we used about 1100-1300 gallons of heat oil per year, now at $5 per gallon or more. any way if you were to stand by my old windows at 30-60 below zero in the winter you could feel about a 5 mile per hour breeze seeping through the sides around the glass with a build up of ice about 2 inches thick all the way around. we put in the anderson vinal tripple pain windows with the high-e coating on the inside and heavily insulated with foam around the sides all through out the house. the windows feel warm to the touch and there is no breeze the boiler runs less than half as much and it uses about 600-700 gallons a year. i am planning to put a wood stove in i just bought  in a month or two to cut that in half as well. it went from maybe a one-star insulated house to almost a five-star plus home just with the windows doors and a little extra blown in insulation in the attic. the windows should save me about $3000 or more dollars per year and have already paid them selves off in a little over a year with just 8 windows.


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## Adios Pantalones (Sep 12, 2008)

ak- well, I would think the ice buildup could block the airflow- LOL

Sounds like you made the right decision!


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## gibson (Sep 13, 2008)

i'm sure it has been mentioned, but sound deadening is a huge improvement of good double paned windows over old windows.


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## caber (Sep 16, 2008)

We had a single-pane window at the top of the stairs that would ice up on the inside of the house in the winter.  That was the first to be replaced.  It's nice not having your had freeze when you touch a window.  We also did 2 in our bedroom that you could feel and hear the wind come thru.  Very noticeable improvement in temperature.  

I have 4 windows that are actually just sheets of glass held in place with molding.  They comprise 12 feet of the east facing downstairs wall.  I can't wait to feel the difference when i replace them.


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## Hansson (Sep 17, 2008)

d.n.f. said:
			
		

> Can tell you that in Canada we have a fed govt program for eco energy upgrades for your house.



It`s the same here.You can get some mony if you upgrades your windows.
But here we are replacing double pane whit 3 pane windows.

The U value has to be lass then 1.2.Dont now if you use the U therm for windows over there


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## Redox (Sep 17, 2008)

Hansson said:
			
		

> d.n.f. said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting question!  Yes, we use U values, but it's more common to see R values on windows and insulation.  It would seem that we have our own definition of R here in the States that is different from the rest of the world. though.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-value_(insulation)

Then we could discuss British thermal units vs. kilocalories and liters vs gallons.  My head is beginning to hurt.  

So; how much does oil cost in Sweden?

Chris


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## Hansson (Sep 17, 2008)

Redox said:
			
		

> So; how much does oil cost in Sweden?
> 
> Chris



About $8.50 a gallon


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## velvetfoot (Sep 17, 2008)

I have to say that I'm not that happy with the ~4year old Pella windows that came with the house.
They are wood on the inside.
It gets condensation in the corners when it's cold.
They mostly all do that.
I don't know why, but my vinyl windows in the last house never did that.


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## Redox (Sep 17, 2008)

Hansson said:
			
		

> Redox said:
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> 
> ...



Ouch!  And we're complaining about $4/gal in the US...

Chris


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## ericjeeper (Sep 22, 2008)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> I have to say that I'm not that happy with the ~4year old Pella windows that came with the house.
> They are wood on the inside.
> It gets condensation in the corners when it's cold.
> They mostly all do that.
> I don't know why, but my vinyl windows in the last house never did that.


 It is because the vinyl windows in your last house had a better insulated glass package..
Pella and Anderson neither one offer much of a IG Unit.R4 is as good as they go. That is two layers of double strength glass, one coating of lo e film, and argon gas with a PPG intercept spacer.
 INMHO they are living on the name from the good ole days..


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## gibson (Sep 22, 2008)

I installed Pella replacement windows in my old house.  They were much better than what I replaced.  When I moved in to my current home, the previous owner had installed Marvin vinyl replacement windows, they are much better.  Easy to clean, low maintenance, etc.  Must have cost him an arm and a leg...


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## velvetfoot (Sep 22, 2008)

OT:  
I wish we had the Pedro of old.


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