# What is the best wood boiler or wood furance



## carried84 (Dec 6, 2015)

Hello,
We are looking at getting off using propane for main heating source.  We have been looking around at wood boilers and wood furnaces for main source of heating our home.  

What we would like to do is heat our 3,000 sft home, add radiant floor heating for the whole house (two story) basement and 3 car gargae.  We would also like it to do the whole house hot water system too.  My husband has been looking at the wood gun with option for back up propane.  Just wanted to get more opinions on burning wood.
We were also looking at adding a heat pump for back up if we need another source of heat or go on vacation and cant load the wood.

Thanks


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## Highbeam (Dec 7, 2015)

carried84 said:


> Hello,
> We are looking at getting off using propane for main heating source.  We have been looking around at wood boilers and wood furnaces for main source of heating our home.
> 
> What we would like to do is heat our 3,000 sft home, add radiant floor heating for the whole house (two story) basement and 3 car gargae.  We would also like it to do the whole house hot water system too.  My husband has been looking at the wood gun with option for back up propane.  Just wanted to get more opinions on burning wood.
> ...



I would like those things too. Do you realize that you just described about 50,000$ worth of investment?

A wood furnace using existing ducting is about a 5000$ dollar investment.


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## carried84 (Dec 7, 2015)

I dont see how that is 50,000 cost, but we did look at the wood force air furnace but that will not take care of heating the radiant flooring we want to add, so that is why he started looking at the wood boiler. We also looked at geothermal but have not heard great things about it.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 7, 2015)

Is this going inside the house?  If so, is Froling considered best?  http://woodboilers.com/ sells them.  I just looked at that page again, and darned if I am not still enthralled by that $3500 Tarm.  For me, though  , maybe too small for you.


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## carried84 (Dec 7, 2015)

I think it would be great to have it inside but not againt an outside unit, we would just have to build a shed. Does anyone have any problems with insurance companies with wood burners inside the house?


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## GENECOP (Dec 7, 2015)

That question is kind of like asking, "what's the best kind of sandwich" Garn, Seton, Lopper ...i think we a MIGHT agree that radiant heat as a delivery system is a good choice, beyond that, so many opinions, so many variables, read a lot, then find a Qualified plumber who has experience in this area...


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## Highbeam (Dec 7, 2015)

carried84 said:


> I dont see how that is 50,000 cost, but we did look at the wood force air furnace but that will not take care of heating the radiant flooring we want to add, so that is why he started looking at the wood boiler. We also looked at geothermal but have not heard great things about it.



Okay, maybe not quite 50k but be prepared for a whallop of a price tag. Three stories, 4500 SF plus garage, retrofit radiant floor, then all the boiler plumbing, electrical, then the actual boiler itself and perhaps chimney? All hired out by professionals? Oh boy. Big check.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 7, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Do you realize that you just described about 50,000$ worth of investment?


$50k may be a stretch, but I'd bet that you'd be hard pressed to end up under $15k. $20-25K is probably more realistic, but it all depends on what exactly you end up installing. 
Actually, the more I think about what you described...I think Highbeam may be closer than I first thought, especially if you buy quality components, and you _do_ want to buy quality components, _the first time_...or you will end up buying the good stuff on the second go 'round. One thing that I remember reading on here from people who have done new boiler installs...many of them say "man, I can't believe how this really starts to add up!" It's the "little" stuff that gets ya, because there is a TON of it! Don't forget to add up the little stuff too.
As far as a good wood furnace, there are a number. PSG Max Caddy would be a good one for you, or if you want to go with the very best, Kuuma Vaporfire 100


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## maple1 (Dec 7, 2015)

What is your current heat distribution system? Ducts? Pipes?


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## Highbeam (Dec 8, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Okay, maybe not quite 50k but be prepared for a whallop of a price tag. Three stories, 4500 SF plus garage, retrofit radiant floor, then all the boiler plumbing, electrical, then the actual boiler itself and perhaps chimney? All hired out by professionals? Oh boy. Big check.



Whoops, forgot to add heat pump system. Another 5k installed if you only need one unit. At 4500 SF, you would likely need more than one and that assumes your ducts are fine. I also didn't mention the domestic water heat from the boiler but you will need to purchase the exchanger/tank system to allow that. The guys on this site will tell you about how you need 500-1000 gallons of hot water storage too.

I only know this because my shop has 1800 SF of radiant floor heat tubes in the slab but it is extremely expensive to set up a wood boiler to heat it compared with a regular wood stove or furnace. The floor heat sits unused. My home has no ducts or hot water heat, just electric wall heaters. I have looked at retrofitting an automatic heat source to compliment my woodstove (used for 100% of heat now) and the best deal seems to be the minisplit heat pumps or adding ducts and a regular split heat pump system. In other words, heating air.

Hot water wood heat with radiant floors is an extremely expensive retrofit but would be an awesome system.


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## carried84 (Dec 8, 2015)

We currently have duct work that heats the 3000 sqft house with an with orginial 80 percent 120,000 btu furnace the house was built in 97 and we have done alot to improve heat loss. 

I know we are going to be getting rid of that gas hog furnance and but in a heat pump with will also upgrade the ac unit that is the same age. We wanted to put in a boiler for the radiant heat and was looking at add the wood boiler to heat everything or help lower the cost.

We are lucky and my husband does heating and cooling so the equipment cost is less and the we dont have to pay install cost per say just time and personal labor lol.

Thank you all for the comments.  We are new at the wood burning, we have an old wood stove in the basement that is retrofitted to the duck works to help in the winter and it does a great job but its just not good on wood usage.


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## carried84 (Dec 8, 2015)

we looked at the Kuuma unit I really liked it but I dont think it will heat the radiant floors so that is why we started looking at wood boilers so it would do the floors and the house


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## brenndatomu (Dec 8, 2015)

carried84 said:


> we looked at the Kuuma unit I really liked it but I dont think it will heat the radiant floors so that is why we started looking at wood boilers so it would do the floors and the house


One thing to keep in mind, if you have a wood furnace going in the basement, the floors will stay warm anyways.
I have a really hard time keeping my feet warm and _hate_ cold floors. I wanted to install a indoor wood boiler and then retrofit radiant plates to the bottom of the main floor, but when I saw the install cost I decided to go with a wood furnace until I could afford the boiler system (probably never, ha!) but after installing the furnace, I realized that the floors were way warmer anyways! Win! Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile 
If you have the wood stove down there now, and hubby is HVAC, then it should only run ~$4-5k to go wood furnace (<$4k for Max Caddy, >$5k for Kuuma)


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## jrod770 (Dec 8, 2015)

brenndatomu said:


> One thing to keep in mind, if you have a wood furnace going in the basement, the floors will stay warm anyways.
> I have a really hard time keeping my feet warm and _hate_ cold floors. I wanted to install a indoor wood boiler and then retrofit radiant plates to the bottom of the main floor, but when I saw the install cost I decided to go with a wood furnace until I could afford the boiler system (probably never, ha!) but after installing the furnace, I realized that the floors were way warmer anyways! Win! Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile
> If you have the wood stove down there now, and hubby is HVAC, then it should only run ~$4-5k to go wood furnace (<$4k for Max Caddy, >$5k for Kuuma)



I will second this.  Since we built our house 7 years ago, we had a Clayton wood burning furnace in the basement.  This year we pulled it out and installed a boiler in the wood shed.  I never realized how toasty that wood burning furnace in the basement made our first floor hardwood floors.  That has been the only thing I have missed.


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## lexybird (Dec 9, 2015)

3,000 + sq ft and forced air then the max caddy for sure  . Not sure if a kumma could even do that square footage


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## Tennman (Dec 9, 2015)

We must have air conditioning so we kept the propane furnace and ductwork and inserted the boiler's water to air heat exchanger into the existing ductwork. As much as I'd like the have the efficiency of radiant, we're in the South so we must have ductwork for AC. At the moment our weather is still quite temperate so we're still on propane. But the wood boiler will be cranking up soon. Using the ductwork for one season then converting to radiant downstream would spread your wood boiler install cost. We spent about $9k to install our BioMass 60 six years ago doing much of the work myself. I like to think there are roughly 3 grades of boilers ranging from ~5-6K up to the top of the line Froling at ~10-11 with several good boilers in the middle. If I was purchasing a boiler today I'd at least spend for one of the middle grades. Look in the signature blocks of folks replying here, see how many posts they have, and what boiler they own. If the poster has hundreds or thousands of posts look at which boiler they're operating. If they hated it they wouldn't be hanging out here. Best wishes.


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## GS7 (Dec 11, 2015)

carried84 said:


> Hello,
> We are looking at getting off using propane for main heating source.  We have been looking around at wood boilers and wood furnaces for main source of heating our home.
> 
> What we would like to do is heat our 3,000 sft home, add radiant floor heating for the whole house (two story) basement and 3 car gargae.  We would also like it to do the whole house hot water system too.  My husband has been looking at the wood gun with option for back up propane.  Just wanted to get more opinions on burning wood.
> ...



The best unit is usually what's best for your situation. For me it turned out to be the woodmaster Flex Fuel. I like the ease of using either wood or pellets, and the programmable auto ignite is cool. Before I went with this unit I really wanted a GARN but it couldn't fit inside. Take your time. Contact companies of interest. Get feedback from companies and owners of the units you're interested in.


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## BoiledOver (Dec 12, 2015)

If you are close to Cadillac, there is a member near there also who knows a great deal concerning all fuels and especially hot water heat. Maybe @heaterman will get wind of your posting, I believe he is an HVAC contractor.


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## bags (Dec 14, 2015)

As stated radiant floor heat retro-fit is expensive to install. It is great but you pay for great. I have and old wood dragon Woodmaster 5500 OWB that will do 10,000 SQ FT. I am a contractor and installed it myself for the most part including excavation, running the pipes, poring my concrete floors, etc: I had $9,000 into it doing 95% of the install myself just for the OWB and parts for that system excluding concrete and everything else needed during construction. Mine also runs thru my heat pump forced air system. That cash layout was in the fall of 2004. System is great but the old wood dragon has a huge appetite for wood. AT least 8 cords per season for a mild winter up to 10 - 12 cords with colder temps. BOAT LOADS OF WOOD!

The system and the Woodmaster have ran flawlessly with only $35 worth of replacement parts at the 10 year mark. I still have it in place and intend to use it once the real cold hits and remains. But I am sick of chucking so much wood. This has been remedied with pellet stoves inside for the shoulder seasons. I steered away from retro radiant flooring in many existing areas because of cost and it would have been a big hassle to do. Back then I would have easily had another $10K minimum added just to do the additional radiant floor heat.

I really like the heat and comfort but hate ALL of the wood needed. The old 5500 is not nearly as efficient as many newer units. Do some serious research as to what will work best for your given situation. As Highbeam pointed out your are asking for a lot and also some big cash layout. Even if the hubby can do most of the install etc.

Your existing concrete basement floor for example to turn into radiant would require one of two things. Tear it out and re-pour it with insulation below or insulate over the existing and pouring another cap of 2 to 3 inches plus the foam insulation making it 3 1/2 to 5 inches higher reducing your overall ceiling height. The 4x8 sheets of foam I used back in 2004 cost about $40 each back then. Probably similar in price today but just the foam I used in a 1,200 SQ FT addition here cost me $1,500 for example. I used 2". If you do not insulate you are wasting your time. You will simply just heat the dirt or whatever below losing all of your heat. Therefore to me doing radiant down there does not make sense to me when warmth can be had way cheaper. if you were building a new place then hell yes, go for it.

Not to be a dream crusher here but only being realistic. Figure out your budget, research, develop a plan, ask questions, and go from there. I agree Geo Thermal is expensive and highly over rated IMHO. Not much to gain in the heating department as they usually run an electric heat pack. I have numerous friends in the HVAC business and none of them have Geos but it is what the sell and install for a living.

I would assess what you have to work with and your existing conditions and tailor a set up for that. It will be the most cost effective and beneficial overall. As the old saying goes....... There is more than one way to skin a cat. Many here will have very good suggestions once you establish what you want and have to work with. Good Luck and get creative if you need to.


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## Heat1285 (Dec 14, 2015)

if you go with a traditional OWB and not a gasser my advice is to over size it for your application. I have a Heatmor 400, it is new this year. It is rated for up to 10,000 sqft and i am only heating about 4500 with it including DWH. reason is that like was stated above they LOVE WOOD. still beats the hek out of payin gthe man for propane or oil tho! my last unit was reated fr 5,000 square and it did a great job but man i had to load every 8 hours in cold cold weather...this bigger unit gives me a little more room to breathe.


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## Nofossil (Dec 14, 2015)

Well, if you are looking for opinions you've come to the right place ;-)

We made the switch to wood as our primary heat source ten years ago - 3500 sq ft plus hot tub and hot water. We went with a small gasifier. We added heat storage (880 gallons) and a wall-mounted propane demand heater as a backup heat source.

Overall, it's been a good solution. Storage lets us build fires when it's convenient, and lets us skip days (or even multiple days) if it's not too cold out. I wish that we had radiant, as that would extend the effective capacity of our storage.

The gasifier uses a *lot* less wood than a conventional boiler, and there's virtually no smoke or odor. Our new neighbors were shocked when they found out that we heat with wood.

We added some controls to automatically switch between the boiler, storage, and the backup heat source. That's made heating much simpler, though its has added complexity in other ways (see link in my signature).


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## Highbeam (Dec 15, 2015)

Nofossil said:


> Well, if you are looking for opinions you've come to the right place ;-)
> 
> We made the switch to wood as our primary heat source ten years ago - 3500 sq ft plus hot tub and hot water. We went with a small gasifier. We added heat storage (880 gallons) and a wall-mounted propane demand heater as a backup heat source.
> 
> ...



Cripes Nofossil, now I get to spend several more hours going through your website. Thank you. I have heard that you want to size your wood boiler so that it can fully charge your storage with one loading. Is your small boiler able to accomplish that or do you need to reload to charge?


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## maple1 (Dec 15, 2015)

I think it's more like size your storage so it can take at least a full boiler load of heat.


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## Nofossil (Dec 15, 2015)

maple1 said:


> I think it's more like size your storage so it can take at least a full boiler load of heat.


Like I said - plenty of opinions (and pretty valid ones, at that). I'd say storage should at a minimum absorb close to a full boiler load. Maximum is more determined by building heat load and how long you'd like to go between fires.  In my case, it definitely takes more than a full load to get fully depleted storage back to 'full'. However, I often will build a fire before storage is empty.

In my particular case, my storage is a bit too small to carry the house for 24 hours on a cold day - it's really more like 12 to 18 hours worth of heat depending how cold it is. With a small boiler, I can build a fire that will burn for 6 to 12 hours (with reloadings), leaving storage to cover the balance of the day. With a larger boiler, it would fill up storage too fast, and I'd have to build a fire in less than 24 hours. I'm way too lazy for that.

I would *love* more storage - maybe even 2000 gallons. Pressurized, too. No space, no time, no money, so I'm making the best of what I have.


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