# Contractor didn't use flashing - Sunroom has a big problem



## Soundchasm (Oct 30, 2015)

Howdy again,
We upgraded a beat-up Florida room to something nice after a terrific hailstorm, high winds, downed trees, etc.  We used the insurance proceeds and ponied up the difference.  Had a reputable general contracting company (we thought) and a guy onsite to supervise daily stuff.  The whole experience is still somewhat traumatic...

I've heard the word "flashing" before and I know some big problem comes next in the sentence, but that's it.  I wouldn't have known to demand it or if it was done properly, but I think in this case it wasn't done at all.

Heavy rains result in a puddle of water coming in the sunroom from under a baseboard.  Outside, I've caulked, re-caulked, cleaned out the caulk and caulked again.  In March 2015 a guy who replaced our soffits ginned up another attempt with some external flashing and silicone.  It worked for a while but a storm last week did dump some rain and the puddle came back.

I finally pulled off the baseboards to inspect and there's lots of water there.  I made a dye to put in a puddle outside and the color slowly began to appear inside so it's definitely coming from the floor and not the wall or windows.  The drywall inside is dry.

Called a BIL who does some construction and we removed a bottom run of vinyl siding and then we saw the problem.  The bottom several inches of OSB are toast.  There was some j-lock to terminate the siding with a tiny bead of caulk on the side facing in - seemingly wholly inadequate.

Right now the plan is to cut out/replace the damaged OSB, bend flashing into a tall "L" shape, and put it down like the world depends on it.

I saw copper being used as flashing and thought that was pretty smart.  If you guys have any tips or online resources let me know and I'll dig into it.  The pics should make the problem fairly clear.

Thanks,
Greg


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## johneh (Oct 30, 2015)

Do you have  puddle on the outside when it rains ?
If you do you will have to change your grade  for
flashing to work and you do need flashing water
must drain away from building or it will get
under the flashing


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## billb3 (Oct 30, 2015)

My sister and BIL had a sunroom like that but on a wood deck, not a stone patio. On hers the water had someplace to go.

With no stem wall that's always going to leak and wick up water.

Termite heaven.

The Florida room before that was aluminum and/or tin ?


Shame they didn't run a HDPE 2x4 between the patio floor and the wall for a contact break.


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## sportbikerider78 (Oct 30, 2015)

I had a similar issue I fixed myself.

1) You have to get rid of the water.  It HAS to get away from that area instead of going towards it.  If you are using silicone to solve problems like this, it will work...for a short period of time and then you will have big problems.  There is nothing you can put there that will keep out lots of water for any period of time.  If it is there, it will get in.
If it was me, I'd put a narrow 3"-6" trench between that patio block and the home, draining to a low area. It looks to me like there is a pretty aggressive slope to that sliding door.  Not good.
Is there a gutter?

2) I fixed the damage to my home by replacing the USB with pressure treated plywood..covering the area with a snow and ice shield up to 2',,, then flashing up 1'.  Make sure the flashing is OVER the decking/tile area so that water will run down onto the deck, not the home structure.

You don't have to tell me that water issues stink, because I have been through my share of them.  But do not cheap out on the fix or you will be tearing it all apart again next year.  You can fix this...it is not that big of a deal.


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## jatoxico (Oct 30, 2015)

sportbikerider78 said:


> I'd put a narrow 3"-6" trench between that patio block and the home, draining to a low area.


Have a similar situation and had to install one of these. It wasn't too painful.


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## DougA (Oct 30, 2015)

I thought about this for awhile and the suggestions are good but I can't see any solution working long term unless you take more drastic action. The overhang on that wall is too short and the patio does not have enough slope to drain off heavy rain.  Digging in a drain will help until the rain is heavy or until the drain freezes full of water.  A much larger drain with a heated wire would be the cheapest option.
The real solution IMHO, is to build a temporary support for the wall, then remove the bottom section entirely, cutting the studs to a predetermined height.. Even the plate will probably be rotting, so get rid of it all. Then, install at least one course of 8" cement (cinder) block. Two courses would be better, then you are 16" high. That's easy work you can do yourself and not super expensive, just takes a lot of time.  Then, put in a new plate on top of the cement block sealed properly underneath. If you have done the measurements right, the old studs will be the correct height to match up to the plate. If not, a shim will work. Seal the cement block with black tar because the cement will still absorb water if it's ponding there. Cover with snow & ice shield.
Then, I would put the siding back on and make sure you put holes in the bottom J strip so the water will drain.

This sounds like overkill but the only other option is to redo the patio with a proper slope. All easy solutions will be temporary only.  My daughter's house has a similar problem with a door poorly built right at the height of the driveway. I told her that it was a major fault before they built the house. Three years later, they got a ton of rain and the water poured in through the doorway and the basement got flooded. Now they decided to sell the house.


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## Soundchasm (Oct 30, 2015)

My "work" will be starting in a few hours, so I may not be able to get back to this thread before Monday, but your responses are GREAT.

A little more background-
When we moved here, it was bare concrete and was spalling.  I hired some guys to top it with Permacrete since that had the right qualities.  Other than getting the color wrong, I don't know if they could have graded it slightly had I asked.  Now my problem has been that all self-leveling products I look into are for indoor use.  The other big issue is that I don't know if anything will stick to permacrete, including more permacrete, so grading turned into a brick wall, so to speak.

I think the tendency of that concrete is always going to be low in the center.  Things settle and gravity will have its way.

I wholeheartedly agree than channeling the water is the real and true solution.  Having said that, when I was looking into patching our decorative pond's rubber liner, I discovered a thing called marine-grade caulking.  It'd be for pools and stuff.  Maybe to attach the flashing there might be marine grade epoxy that would have a longer life.

I think belt and breeches will be a trench plus manned-space-flight rated flashing.  Will begin rumination on all your thoughts.
Thanks,
Greg


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## shoot-straight (Oct 30, 2015)

Flashing- like nails on a chalkboard to me. I feel your pain. New home built, no flashing between deck and house (resulted in rotten rim joist and complete deck redo), windows, doors, chimney, and like you a concrete front porch.

My contractor died of a heart attack 2 years after my house was complete- right after we started having problems. I think if he hadn't died I would have killed him myself. I simply knew nothing when the house was built.... Not the case anymore.

The guys on here are the real deal as far as advice. They are a tremendous resource.


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## DougA (Oct 30, 2015)

One other flashing idea - not that I would go that route but it's the only easy way.  I have seen people put a saw cut (concrete saw) into the slab or bricks around a chimney.   Renting one is not too bad and you're only cutting in an inch or so which is super easy.  The flashing goes into the groove with plenty of caulking.  It creates a barrier that the water can't get under.  At the same time, you could cut a trench for the water to run off in.


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## DougA (Oct 30, 2015)

BTW, my SIL is a supervisor for a home builder. He just quit one company this week and going to another one.  The whole industry is full of people who slam/bang stuff together.  He finally quit after the head office refused to smarten up and get the trades paid on time. The good trades people expect to get paid, not wait months and months for their money. The good guys leave and you're stuck with idiots.  These are half million dollar houses, not junk!

He tells me stories that are completely impossible. Pre-sold house has an upgraded 9' basement. Concrete gets poured, house built, everything within a week of move-in date and the guy comes to install an upgraded 9' oak stairway to the basement. Then they discover the basement is only 8'. They gave the job to my SIL to fix it that day! 

Vicious cycle: builder hires idiots to save $$, crappy job done, owner sues, builder pays, prices go up to pay for stupidity, start over.


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## Soundchasm (Nov 2, 2015)

I know every one of these replies has quite the story as the source.  I appreciate the time you guys take to share the information.

The soggy, er, saga continues.  I've got the bottom course of siding off and the framing(?) is visible from both sides.  Got fans blowing on the inside and a few good days for the outside, I hope.

The BIL will be over Monday to remove damaged OSB, and will replace with new OSB.  What I cleaned out was pretty similar in look, feel and smell to mulch!  Luckily, it's no more than 4-6", and the 2x4s are very solid.  I've scraped all the old caulking off and I'll wire brush and clean with isopropyl alcohol or something so whatever goes in will have something clean and dry to stick to.

I think it's in my best interest to wait until the 2x4s are 20% or lower before installing any caulking.

I'll call 3M on Monday to find out what the best substance will be to seal the flashing.  Right now my reading indicates 3M 4200 and Loctite PL S30.  I've got a 4.5" diamond wheel here and I can rent an angle grinder so there will be some kind of trench here sooner than later while I look into a trench drain.

Nothing brings a group of victims together as quickly as sharing stories about the consequences of incompetence!!


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## gzecc (Nov 3, 2015)

Soundchasm said:


> I know every one of these replies has quite the story as the source.  I appreciate the time you guys take to share the information.
> 
> The soggy, er, saga continues.  I've got the bottom course of siding off and the framing(?) is visible from both sides.  Got fans blowing on the inside and a few good days for the outside, I hope.
> 
> ...


Was this project originally permitted?


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## Soundchasm (Nov 4, 2015)

Gzecc,
The whole thing was on the up and up.  Architect drew the blueprints, general contracting company, onsite supervisor, permits and lots of inspections.  One of the inspections even required that I get electrically hardwired smoke detectors installed in the old (1955) part of the house, and none were required in the new room!

My BIL essentially said the same thing today.  What the heck did the inspectors even look at, because in hindsight, it seems pretty obvious now.


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## semipro (Nov 4, 2015)

DougA said:


> One other flashing idea - not that I would go that route but it's the only easy way.  I have seen people put a saw cut (concrete saw) into the slab or bricks around a chimney.   Renting one is not too bad and you're only cutting in an inch or so which is super easy.  The flashing goes into the groove with plenty of caulking.  It creates a barrier that the water can't get under.  At the same time, you could cut a trench for the water to run off in.


This is a great suggestion.  The groove is called a reglet in a chimney. 
No way I would trust an adhesive (caulk) seal alone on something like this.


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## Soundchasm (Nov 5, 2015)

DougA said:


> One other flashing idea - not that I would go that route but it's the only easy way.  I have seen people put a saw cut (concrete saw) into the slab or bricks around a chimney.   Renting one is not too bad and you're only cutting in an inch or so which is super easy.  The flashing goes into the groove with plenty of caulking.  It creates a barrier that the water can't get under.  At the same time, you could cut a trench for the water to run off in.



Well, after a LOT of hours this week, phase I and II are done.  Phase I was removing and replacing all the damaged OSB.  Phase II was cutting a groove into the concrete that the flashing went into.  I ordered and received 3M 4000 UV which is a "below the waterline" caulk.  People use it on portholes and through-the-boat stuff with excellent results.  Tubes one and two was a bead of caulk between the plate and the outside.  I used a damp sponge to tool it into a good seal.  Tubes three, four and five sealed the bottom and corners of the flashing with just enough to put a thin bead over the concrete cut (reglet? ;-) the flashing went into.  Tapcons through the flashing into the concrete and sealed.

We had three small cracks in the vinyl siding from man-handling it.  Could not believe how hard it was to get the shorties out and back in.  I used gaffer's tape to seal them until I caulk or replace them.

Phase III will be cutting a trench drain.  I'm looking at http://drainagekits.com/product/micro-channel-drain-kit-by-nds/#lightbox/0/, it's 1.25" wide by 3.25" deep.  That might be a bit of a challenge to install.  Scratch that.  The slab looks to be 7", so no way would I cut it in half...  We got a concrete blade for a circular saw, so we'll do a "V" shape about an inch deep.

I can't change the grade, but there are low spots.  I'll look into getting a few bags of this stuff to level it off and protect the concrete in the trench.
http://www.duraamen.com/p/overlays-micro-topping-exterior/

This forum is a great place.  Thank you all.


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## seige101 (Nov 5, 2015)

Put some real drainage trench in there. Sure it is a more work but it will handle the volume of water you need it to. As far as cutting that deep rent a concrete saw for a few hours from your local home center.


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## Soundchasm (Nov 5, 2015)

seige101 said:


> Put some real drainage trench in there. Sure it is a more work but it will handle the volume of water you need it to. As far as cutting that deep rent a concrete saw for a few hours from your local home center.



I won't mind the work, and the drain looks great, but I just reminded myself it's a 7" slab over the garage.  I never made that obvious.  My first thought is I should be careful and not cut too deep into it.  If this was ground level I'd be off and running!


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## DougA (Nov 5, 2015)

Soundchasm said:


> I never made that obvious.


We can help you turn that garage into a boat house. 

Is there any way to drill a few holes through the concrete and run some drain lines on the ceiling of the garage and then out to the lawn?  If so, much better way of getting rid of the water - and cheaper.  V notches in concrete are a PITA.


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## semipro (Nov 6, 2015)

What kind of flashing is that in your picture?  
You could also install the flashing such that the portion closest to the wall is raised slightly to encourage water to slough off away from the wall.


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## Dougsey (Nov 6, 2015)

Why tapcons through the flashing?  Wouldn't nailing to the studs up high be a better choice?

Also, is that sill PT?


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## Soundchasm (Nov 7, 2015)

DougA said:


> We can help you turn that garage into a boat house.
> 
> Is there any way to drill a few holes through the concrete and run some drain lines on the ceiling of the garage and then out to the lawn?  If so, much better way of getting rid of the water - and cheaper.  V notches in concrete are a PITA.



The thought crossed my mind that a hole straight down through the low spot of the deck would allow that water to pass through the deck and right into my wife's open sun roof.  As long as her doors have a pretty good seal then "problem solved"  Guess I ought to tell you guys where I keep my will...

Honestly, that's a good idea.  It'd even be possible to patch right into the downspout popping through the wall again.  Hmmm, food for thought...


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## Soundchasm (Nov 7, 2015)

Dougsey said:


> Why tapcons through the flashing?  Wouldn't nailing to the studs up high be a better choice?
> 
> Also, is that sill PT?



The sill is PT, even though these days PT is less durable (toxic?) than days of old.   The Tapcons seemed like a way to tighten the flashing to the caulking below and allow no chance of the the flashing ever being dislodged from the groove (reglet) or the caulking letting go of the flashing or concrete.  The top is nailed to the studs.  I understand that it does seem weird to put a hole into a water barrier, but we sealed the crap out of it.

The flashing material is standard stuff, whatever that is.  I'm guessing aluminum, but will stand corrected if need be.

We had a pretty healthy storm Thursday night with no water infiltration, so that's a good sign.


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## DougA (Nov 7, 2015)

Soundchasm said:


> We had a pretty healthy storm Thursday night with no water infiltration, so that's a good sign.


Congrats. I think you did what is needed.


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## seige101 (Nov 7, 2015)

Soundchasm said:


> I won't mind the work, and the drain looks great, but I just reminded myself it's a 7" slab over the garage.  I never made that obvious.  My first thought is I should be careful and not cut too deep into it.  If this was ground level I'd be off and running!
> 
> View attachment 166136


Ah never knew it was on the 'roof' of your garage. In that case i would not cut into it at all! You would be changing the structural integrity of the patio and garage roof!


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## billb3 (Nov 8, 2015)

why-oh-why did they not build the sunroom the same size as the garage ?

the original sunroom was a kit and the insurance would only replace the same size ?



I'd be cutting an inch and a half off of every stud bottom, replacing the bottom 2x4 sole plate  with a PT 2x4 and a plastic 2x4 under that resting on the concrete. If a little water came in the room no big deal at least no water would wick up the wall.


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## Soundchasm (Nov 8, 2015)

Billb3, we were kind of stuck with the original FL room dimensions.  There was an existing tile floor we were never going to match, and then there was the Permacrete we had installed outside, and I really doubt we could have ever gotten the two surfaces leveled and even.  I'd have to go back and calculate the cost per square foot, but with the vaulted ceiling, even the beam that spans that would have to be a monster.

We considered cutting the 2x4s, but that would probably end up being an insurance claim on the insurance claim, and the original contractors were a nightmare at the end.  The insurance company made a mistake in our favor, and the contractors thought it belonged to them.  They didn't even know why.  They got full retail on every task, and profit and overhead on top of that.  Their line items including all the gravy didn't add up to the amount they were asking and they couldn't explain it.  I had to get a lawyer in order to PAY them!!   It took weeks to figure out what happened and months out of my life to deal with it.  Worst money I ever made.

Anyway, the inside of the room had 4" baseboards, so we cut the drywall 3" up, and we're waiting for it to dry before we button the inside back up.  It's one more example of needing a MM to read <20%.  

Here's a shot of the vertical supports.  I don't know if these would be harder than single 2x4s to jack up.




Man, the next time I build a sunroom it's going to kick some serious a**  Thanks.

Here it is, buttoned up.  The gaffer's tape marks some cracks we made.  It was a real PITA to flex a 10" bit of siding into a 9.5" space.  Ugh.


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