# Are all fire bricks the same



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

This summer I'm looking to replace all the fire brick in side my insert. It seems that all the bricks are starting to crack and crumble.
So my question is.
1. Are there bricks out there that will retain the heat longer then others.
2. My baffles are in good shape,but is it worth replacing them as well.

I dont now much about fire bricks except that theres different sizes.

Thanks to all, for all your help. If it wasnt for you this site would suck. Keep up the good work.


----------



## pen (Feb 15, 2012)

What kind of insert are you running?

Adding it to your signature can be done by clicking on "your control panel" at the top of the page.

pen


----------



## DAKSY (Feb 15, 2012)

Take a firebrick out & measure it. If it's
9x4.5x1.25", it's called a "Split" firebrick...That's 
what most manufacturers put into their woodstoves
& inserts. If you buy from a hearth shop, 
they'll cost you about $3 each. If you by from a 
masonry supply outfit, about $1.50 each. There 
ARE different types, but standard split bricks are fine. 
They are primarily used to reflect the heat back towards
the middle of the fire box, making the stove burn hotter,
altho they DO insulate the sides & bottom of the fire box.
If you have to cut a split brick, a tile-cutting wetsaw is the
ideal tool for the job...


----------



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

The bricks are 9x5x1.25 Im not going to have any problems reinstalling them as I have a garage full of tools. 
I really thought that  the brick would hold the heat in longer like a clay furnace. Has any one come across bricks that are better then others.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Feb 15, 2012)

Like a metal wood stove is not the best material
in which to burn wood most efficiently, fire brick
is not the best material to line a firebox.

Metal wood stoves are compromises at best.

As for the fire bricks, they can withstand very
high temperatures.  Much higher than what is
required in a metal stove firebox.  They are
made for industrial applications (not for us wood
burners) to take HIGH temperatures and KEPT
there.  Our little metal stoves don't generate 
the heat that makes them fail (CRACK).  Our stoves
heat then cool, heat then cool.  This THERMAL CYCLING
or THERMAL SHOCK is what causes the failure of the
fire brick (along with trauma from tossing wood chunks).

So, an expensive super heavy duty industrial firebrick 
is not necessarily what you are looking for.  Any brick
will crack the way we use them.  Red brick has more 
impurities, like iron, that make them more brittle than
gray clay fire brick - not the best for our firebox.

Therefore, the best we can do is realize we are dealing 
with compromise and replace a cracked fire brick when 
required and go about our day.

Aye,
Marty


----------



## Jags (Feb 15, 2012)

The quick and easy answer is "Yes", there are different types of firebrick.  For instance, Quadrafire uses a different brick than Englander.  The noticeable difference is the density of the brick.  One is quite a bit lighter than the other but is said to have better insulating properties.  Again using Quad as an example, they do not recommend the use of the heavier density brick.  They want the owner to stick with the other stuff.  YMMV


----------



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

Jags Thanks this is exectly what I was tring to get at. My warrenty is well over and Im looking to make this stove more efficent. If you were going to replace the bricks witch one do you go with? IM looking to hold the heat longer. ( like putting a after market air cleaner in the truck to get better proformance ) 
Has any one noticed any differents by doing this


----------



## Jags (Feb 15, 2012)

I would personally stick with the same style as the mfg. put in the unit.  I don't mean that you have to buy from the mfg, but the brick style chosen by the mfg was for a reason.  Whether it was for - heat reflection, insulating value, what have you - I ain't gonna try and figure out WHY the engineers did what they did.


----------



## oldspark (Feb 15, 2012)

I asked this question a while back and no one seems to have tried a different one in their stove, my old stove had the heavier ones and the new stove has the light ones, I guess I could call PE and get their opinion on it.


----------



## Jags (Feb 15, 2012)

oldspark said:
			
		

> I guess I could call PE and get their opinion on it.



I gar-own-double-damn-t that they will suggest OEM.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Feb 15, 2012)

Jags said:
			
		

> I would personally stick with the same style as the mfg. put in the unit.  I don't mean that you have to buy from the mfg, but the brick style chosen by the mfg was for a reason.  Whether it was for - heat reflection, insulating value, what have you - I ain't gonna try and figure out WHY the engineers did what they did.



Yup. Jags is right for once. Super duty bricks are more dense and will hold more heat, but they also conduct heat to the shell better. The bricks they use are formulated to insulate to a given extent, I assume to prevent overfires etc.


----------



## begreen (Feb 15, 2012)

The denser brick is baked alumina and silica, the lighter brick is made from pumice. Pumice brick is better insulator and is used to keep the firebox hotter. The downside is that it is more expensive and less common.


----------



## Jags (Feb 15, 2012)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> Yup. Jags is right for once.



I never tire of hearing that - hey, wait a minute...*ONCE!*


----------



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

Wow that's cool I got some great info. I'm sure that napolean didn't put in pumice 
 if its more expensive. Is the pumice brick brittle our
 do they hold up better  then the other


----------



## Ubookz (Feb 15, 2012)

I experimented with my P.E. super 27; I changed out the standard stock "pumice" bricks and put in the heavier clay brick sides and back only. I thought that the heavier mass would hold the heat longer in the cooling stage, and radiate better. What I discovered was: the pumice bricks are better, the fire is hotter, just performs better.

I think a lot of the stove's heat comes off the top plate. I thought because of the insulating nature of the pumice brick, a lot of the produced heat will be reflected away from radiating into the firebox.

I filled in the gaps-about 1/2".above the side wall and back wall with strips of an extra pumice brick. Also I modded the air lever stop to allow me to reduce the airflow more.


----------



## Jags (Feb 15, 2012)

Burd said:
			
		

> Wow that's cool I got some great info. I'm sure that napolean didn't put in pumice
> if its more expensive. Is the pumice brick brittle our
> do they hold up better  then the other



I believe the pumice to be a bit more fragile.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Feb 15, 2012)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> The denser brick is baked alumina and silica, the lighter brick is made from pumice. Pumice brick is better insulator and is used to keep the firebox hotter. The downside is that it is more expensive and less common.



I am surprised to hear that. Most pumice is feldspathic and therefore not refractory enough for high temps. It may be more than good enough for the temps in a woodstove, however.

My understanding is that high temp insulating refractory bricks (IFB's) are normally made from some sort of clay with a combustible (rice hull ash or sawdust) mixed in that burns out during firing to create air spaces. I have actually made small components by this process. I have bought G26 IFB's- good to 2600F, which would definitely be beyond the limits of a feldspathic material.


----------



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

Wow now i'm not sure on what type of brick I have in  there. How do you find out


----------



## oldspark (Feb 15, 2012)

Ubookz said:
			
		

> I experimented with my P.E. super 27; I changed out the standard stock "pumice" bricks and put in the heavier clay brick sides and back only. I thought that the heavier mass would hold the heat longer in the cooling stage, and radiate better. What I discovered was: the pumice bricks are better, the fire is hotter, just performs better.
> 
> I think a lot of the stove's heat comes off the top plate. I thought because of the insulating nature of the pumice brick, a lot of the produced heat will be reflected away from radiating into the firebox.
> 
> I filled in the gaps-about 1/2".above the side wall and back wall with strips of an extra pumice brick. Also I modded the air lever stop to allow me to reduce the airflow more.


 Cool someone has tried it (figured it might not be as good), do you think filling in the gaps above the side bricks helped any?


----------



## brianbeech (Feb 15, 2012)

what about Vermiculite fire bricks/panels?


----------



## begreen (Feb 15, 2012)

Burd said:
			
		

> Wow now i'm not sure on what type of brick I have in  there. How do you find out



Weight is a dead give away. A firebrick split weighs about 4 lbs? The pumice brick is maybe half that weight? Pumice bricks are also a bit less smooth.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Feb 15, 2012)

Ya, dense brick is about 8#, so a split would be 4#


----------



## greythorn3 (Feb 15, 2012)

im thinking the blazekings come with pumace because the texture of the firebrick is allot rougher then the englanders smooth brick, or the firebrick i have purchased locally.


----------



## jeffoc (Feb 15, 2012)

We just had  a Napoleon 1101 delivered last week and I thought it was strange that it had three types of firebrick in it, what I consider the typical firebrick that you see everywhere was the main type. Some of the cut bricks were the pumice type (much lighter and rougher).
In the back top, two of the bricks were very dense and smooth. I don't have a lot of experience with firebrick but I had never seen any like that before.


----------



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

Jeffoc
Now that you posted. Ill bet that my 1402 has the same thing going on. At the front of the box theres two peacies that are cut  and helps lock the side walls together and if im thinking right there pumice the floor was fire brick.Top back wall doesnt even go all the way up to the baffle but the top brick is pumice
Will the manual have witch type of brick goes were.

Man this project is going to suck and I havn't even gotten started.


----------



## DAKSY (Feb 15, 2012)

Go to a masonry supply & get the standard split brick & you will be fine.
You can quibble over the extra BTUs, hotter fires, & brick life, but in the 
long run the less expensive, denser split bricks will do the job. No reason 
to make this project any more difficult or more expensive.


----------



## jeffoc (Feb 15, 2012)

I think the manual is the same for both stoves. I doesn't differentiate much, but you may be able to tell by the shapes in the pictures. 
If you have a dealer around they could probably hook you up with the off type and then the farm or box store for the rest.


----------



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

DAKSY said:
			
		

> Go to a masonry supply & get the standard split brick & you will be fine.
> You can quibble over the extra BTUs, hotter fires, & brick life, but in the
> long run the less expensive, denser split bricks will do the job. No reason
> to make this project any more difficult or more expensive.


Your the man. That's what I'll do. If by chance I get hot spots I'll purchase pumice


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 15, 2012)

I replaced the pumice bricks in two quads with standard ones because I was disgusted with how quick they deteriorated.  There was a thread a while ago where someone quoted Quad as saying loss of material to half the original height was permissable.  I haven't noticed any difference in burning with the standard firebrick.  I might experiment with replacing the bricks with originals, but it'd probably be a costly experiment and I'd get pissed off again.

PS:  I was even able to drill the required 1" hole for the startup air pipe.


----------



## begreen (Feb 15, 2012)

How long did the first set last? Mine are on season 3 and so far look fine.


----------



## Burd (Feb 15, 2012)

Begreen did you replace your bricks our are they  the same ones from the factory


----------



## Ubookz (Feb 16, 2012)

> do you think filling in the gaps above the side bricks helped any?-by oldspark


Very little difference, but I have a tile saw and that leftover pumice brick from the initial install that I cut up


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 16, 2012)

They started deteriorating after the first year.
Maybe your stove has a different type.


----------



## Hogwildz (Feb 16, 2012)

You can turn the bricks back to front and they will be like new again.
I am on season 6 with mine, the original bricks that came with the insert.


----------



## velvetfoot (Feb 16, 2012)

Both you guys have P.E.s.  Quad might use different brick.


----------



## Treacherous (Feb 16, 2012)

I guess my Lopi has the heavier and apparently cheaper "kiln-fired refractory firebrick"

No apparent wear after a few seasons.


----------



## tfdchief (Feb 16, 2012)

brianbeech said:
			
		

> what about Vermiculite fire bricks/panels?


That's what my Hampton has.


----------



## begreen (Feb 16, 2012)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> Both you guys have P.E.s.  Quad might use different brick.



Maybe try replacing with PE pumice bricks then?


----------



## Martin Strand III (Feb 16, 2012)

How will I ever sleep tonight
knowing my stove has the heavier
more dense fire brick rather
than the pumice fire brick?

Aye,
Marty
Grandma used to say,
"Believe me.  Life is a struggle."
Grandpa said,
"I think it's a wiggle."


----------



## burleymike (Feb 16, 2012)

My Osburn has the lighter bricks and they look like new after 1.5 seasons.  I wonder if they are a ceramic type brick like these.  http://www.amazon.com/Vogelzang-6-Pk-Firebrick-Model-FB-01/dp/B000H7UGU0  I know the brick in my old Grizzly insert was the common heavy firebrick.  It was probably the original tough as nails.


----------



## oldspark (Feb 16, 2012)

Marty S said:
			
		

> How will I ever sleep tonight
> knowing my stove has the heavier
> more dense fire brick rather
> than the pumice fire brick?
> ...


 Hit your self in the head with one of them-sleep like a baby. :cheese:


----------



## precaud (Feb 16, 2012)

Burd said:
			
		

> I really thought that  the brick would hold the heat in longer like a clay furnace. Has any one come across bricks that are better then others.



This is a common misunderstanding. Firebrick is not supposed to "hold" heat. Its purpose is to slow the transfer of heat in order to raise temperatures within the firebox in the flame part of the cycle. After that, there is no good reason to "hold" heat in a firebrick. Once the flame dies, you'd be better off having no firebrick at all to maximize heat transfer. So the optimum firebrick has high insulation factor and low weight.


----------



## Battenkiller (Feb 16, 2012)

I'd stick with the original material.  

Insulating fire brick (IFB) allows higher internal temps than regular hard brick.  If the makers put that in the stove, I'm sure there was a design reason for doing so.  IFB doesn't necessarily keep more total heat inside the stove.  Insulation doesn't prevent heat from transferring, it just slows down the rate of transfer.  But with higher internal temps the heat will transfer at a faster rate, so it may be the same amount of heat leaving the box to the room, just higher temps resulting in a more efficient and cleaner burn.

Please agree with me Jags, my ego needs a boost as much as yours does. %-P


----------



## Hogwildz (Feb 16, 2012)

Marty S said:
			
		

> How will I ever sleep tonight
> knowing my stove has the heavier
> more dense fire brick rather
> than the pumice fire brick?
> ...



Run full speed head on into that expensive monolith you have, and that should do quite well.
Or just reread your posts and let the negativity that flows there bore you to sleep.
There is the top two choices offered from a distance anyways.


----------



## Martin Strand III (Feb 16, 2012)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> Marty S said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



More than once I have been ridiculous
to point out the ridiculous.

Aye,
Marty


----------



## Jags (Feb 16, 2012)

Battenkiller said:
			
		

> I'd stick with the original material.
> 
> Insulating fire brick (IFB) allows higher internal temps than regular hard brick.  If the makers put that in the stove, I'm sure there was a design reason for doing so.  IFB doesn't necessarily keep more total heat inside the stove.  Insulation doesn't prevent heat from transferring, it just slows down the rate of transfer.  But with higher internal temps the heat will transfer at a faster rate, so it may be the same amount of heat leaving the box to the room, just higher temps resulting in a more efficient and cleaner burn.
> 
> Please agree with me Jags, my ego needs a boost as much as yours does. %-P



I'm picking up what your laying down, BK.  +1000 :lol: 

For the record - my firebrick are the originals and I see no need for a replacement at this time.  Thats 8 yrs.


----------



## oldspark (Feb 16, 2012)

Jags said:
			
		

> Battenkiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Still have the original ones in the old Nashua 30 years old and so far the PE ones look fine-2 years in March.


----------



## Adios Pantalones (Feb 16, 2012)

My hampton insert has the originals at about 8-9 years old now.  The're cracked, chipped, etc, but in-place so I leave them alone


----------



## Battenkiller (Feb 16, 2012)

precaud said:
			
		

> Firebrick is not supposed to "hold" heat. Its purpose is to slow the transfer of heat in order to raise temperatures within the firebox in the flame part of the cycle. After that, there is no good reason to "hold" heat in a firebrick. Once the flame dies, you'd be better off having no firebrick at all to maximize heat transfer. So the optimum firebrick has high insulation factor and low weight.



I respectfully disagree.  The original purpose of using fireclay brick in stoves was to protect the innards of the stove, not to add insulation.  At stove operating temps, ordinary fireclay brick has about the same thermal conductivity as concrete has.  So, if 8" of concrete isn't considered to be an effective insulator in a basement, what possible insulating effect could 1" of fireclay brick have?

Insulating firebrick OTOH has a thermal conductivity about 10X that of fireclay brick, so it provides 10X the insulation per inch thickness.  That is not a trivial difference.  Both types of brick are used for different purposes in different designs.  Again, I would trust my stove maker and the engineers behind the scene.  Replacing fireclay brick with IFB because they are considered to be "optimum" might cause internal temps to elevate above the design parameters and cause premature failure to internal parts.  Why risk that and accelerate the wear and tear on your stove, or possibly even void your warranty? 

FWIW IFB is not all that expensive, just hard to find locally.  Full-size bricks of K-23 (rated to 2300ÂºF) are about $4-5 from a kiln supplier.  If you run your stove real hot and are rough with loading it, you can spend more and get a denser and more durable K-30 brick.  It won't hurt the stove because these denser bricks actually have a slightly _lower_ insulating value (but still several times higher than ordinary fireclay).  IFB can be cut with a hacksaw, but if your stove requires split bricks I would find a source for them rather than wearing out your arm (and several hacksaw blades) cutting them in half.


----------



## Battenkiller (Feb 16, 2012)

Jags said:
			
		

> I'm picking up what your laying down, BK.  +1000 :lol:



+1000?  Wow!  Thanks, man, I needed that.


----------



## Hogwildz (Feb 16, 2012)

Might as well file this one away with the cat vs. none cat, steel vs. poly brush, cap screen vs. no cap screen.
I ran out of popcorn


----------



## Burd (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm just going to put in red brick in there and bee done with it


Only kidding. At least its a different topic.


----------



## oldspark (Feb 16, 2012)

There was a guy down the road who bought a load of fire bricks cause he had wet wood, he was disapointed in their performance for the price. :cheese:


----------



## Burd (Feb 16, 2012)

The old timers us to tell me that clay pots (Bricks) will dry wood faster. Man Ive been doing it all wrong


----------

