# no drop in E bill, even when heating DHW



## barnartist (Jan 7, 2008)

Does anyone have an Idea why even though I heat my hot water with wood, why my E-bill doesnt drop?
#rd year in a row of this. My only explination is that I use a forced air system to heat the house, and when that big fan runs, it uses up the difference
in wattage. I have one of those "kill-A-Watt" meters, but cant use it on a hardwired system like a house heater. By the way, I shut my water heaters breaker off for the entire winter to be sure Im heating it for free.
My bill seems to hit its bottom in sept-oct., then sort of gains through the winter.
Anyone with thoughts.
Also, I really hate the "rider-a adjustment" my company likes to add at random. SOUTH CENTRAL POWER.


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## rhetoric (Jan 7, 2008)

My electric bill won't go below $50, even if I don't use a watt.  Hook-up fee, delivery surcharge service fee, state energy tax, pole tax, electro-magnetic compenstation fee, alternative mimimum excess voltage regulator usage tax, etc.  Hacks me off.  

I hate taxes.


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## mayhem (Jan 7, 2008)

During the winter months you're probably going to have an increase over summer usage no matter what...its dark out longer so you use your lights more...you're running your heating sytem, Christmas lights are up, etc.  Even witht eh woodstove on my house keeping the boiler off about 2/3 the time it was normally running in the winter and still my usage has increased over my summer consumption.


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## barnartist (Jan 7, 2008)

What do you guys think of this thing  http://www.power-save1200.com/index.html 
Anyone try it?  "Power Save"


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## Nofossil (Jan 7, 2008)

barnartist said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of this thing  http://www.power-save1200.com/index.html
> Anyone try it?  "Power Save"



Until I see a theory of operation, I'd classify it as snake oil.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 7, 2008)

Pumps, fans, lights on a lot earlier, no clothesline action, (probably) more time spent sitting around watching the tube, etc.

Mine is pretty much the same, barnartist, even though I shut off the breaker to the water heater when I switched to wood in October. Sometimes I think the whole thing is rigged. My only consolation (and my wife hates it when I say this) is, "well, it could be worse." Must be my Midwestern roots.


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## barnartist (Jan 7, 2008)

Nofossil, they have a convincing video on that site, not sure if you saw it. But if you think its like gas mileage saving pills, I'll listen to you.

Eric, I hate that I shut off a breaker to one of the biggest power users and dont save some cash. Thats pretty weird that you end up with 1100 k every time.
Mine goes everywhere and we dont really change our habits.

I have a solar panel (mounted on my camper)I wish I could take advantage of someway. Not smart enough to use it.


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## Eric Johnson (Jan 7, 2008)

I can shut everything off in my house and go on vacation for two weeks and get the same electric bill as the prior month. It's not fair! And those are all actual readings--no estimates.


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## slowzuki (Jan 7, 2008)

Its a capacitor bank.  Yes they help correct the power factor in your house but no they won't save 25% unless you use a lot of electric motors all the time.

Inductive loads like motors will drag your voltage/current relationship out of phase which takes capacitance to correct.  Resistive loads don't have any effect on power factor.  On the whole, not many capacitive loads exist on grids so the utility does power factor correction on its own sites.  Large industrial users have big banks of capacitors they will switch into the circuit to correct their own PF so the utility doesn't bill them extra.


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## barnartist (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks Slow.
Don't think i'll buy it.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 8, 2008)

I pay the same every month too, but it's because of the budget plan.  $145 every month for gas and electric combined isn't too bad.  Electric consumption goes up in the winter, but that's to fire the furnace in addition to lights, etc.

Matt


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## mikeathens (Jan 9, 2008)

barnartist said:
			
		

> Does anyone have an Idea why even though I heat my hot water with wood, why my E-bill doesnt drop?
> #rd year in a row of this. My only explination is that I use a forced air system to heat the house, and when that big fan runs, it uses up the difference
> in wattage. I have one of those "kill-A-Watt" meters, but cant use it on a hardwired system like a house heater. By the way, I shut my water heaters breaker off for the entire winter to be sure Im heating it for free.
> My bill seems to hit its bottom in sept-oct., then sort of gains through the winter.
> ...



Maybe it's because your water heater is gas-fired.  That would explain why heating your water with wood doesn't affect your electric bill


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## barnartist (Jan 9, 2008)

Wow. No, my ELECTRIC water heater is not gas fired.
But thanks.


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## mikeathens (Jan 9, 2008)

barnartist said:
			
		

> Wow. No, my ELECTRIC water heater is not gas fired.
> But thanks.



HAHA...sorry, I couldn't help it.


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## JustWood (Mar 19, 2008)

I've done some things to reduce electric bill also  and have had the same problem.. Started looking back on electric bills to find out that they have increased the kwh rate (not delivery) twice in the last 3 years.


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## Redox (Mar 20, 2008)

nofossil said:
			
		

> barnartist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not exactly snake oil, but its use in residential situations is suspect.    Power factor is determined by the inductance of the load.  An electric resistance heater has a PF of 1 as there is no inductance.  You can measure amps, multiply by volts and accurately determine watts.  Motor PF varies all over the place with .7 to .8 a common number that needs to be multiplied in to figure watts.  Industrial users are generally penalized if their power factor is too low.  They will correct this with capacitors that are sized specifically for the inductive load and are switched with the load.  Residential meters measure true power in watts, not amps.  You can change the apparent power with a capacitor, but the true power will remain nearly the same.  I would have been more impressed with the video if they could show a savings with something like a Fluke 43B that can measure all of this more accurately.  I don't think a Kill-A-Watt can.  Additionally, the power factor on an unloaded motor is notoriously bad thus showing the most dramatic change in the video.  Hanging a $300 fixed capacitor on your house with varying loads is probably not going to help much, and may even hurt.  I am not an EE, but the ones I know aren't exactly running out and buying these things.  If anyone would like to send me one, I could put it through its paces with more accurate instrumentation and report back!  Anyone?  You can have it back when I'm done.  Honest!


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## jebatty (Mar 24, 2008)

The Kill-a-Watt does have a PF reading. The lower the PF reading, the more "wasted" electricity. 

My understanding is that the power co watt hour meter only measures watts not VA, and that residential customers are not billed usage based on PF, the rates charged simply are averaged higher, and that moving PF closer to 1 will not reduce residential electric bill. Opposite true for business, which is why they have the capacitor bank. Correct or not?

Tough to measure electricity saved on a water heater unless it is separately metered. Ours is, as we have off-peak hot water service. I have added insulation to hot water heater, insulated pipes, added heat traps to hot and cold lines, and for the wife and I we use about $4-5/mo of electricity for hot water. Off-peak rate, including distribution charges, is 2.8 cents/kwh. As mentioned in another post, adding this insulation, etc., to hot water heater/plumbing reduced our electric usage by 50%.


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## reaperman (Mar 24, 2008)

Ever wonder if power meters are actually correct?  Has anyone actually seen a  power company calibrate one?  I know here in Mn, the dept of weights and measures, requires annual certification of accuracy for scales, gas pumps, and any other devise of that kind where consumers are charged by pound, gallon, etc.  I'm sure all states take this measure.  I have never heard, or have seen a power company calibrate a power or natural gas meter.


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## d.n.f. (Mar 24, 2008)

They ripped our old one out last year and put in a new digital one.  They can read it from the road via remote.  I wonder if I covered it in tinfoil if I could jam it.....


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## Redox (Mar 24, 2008)

Wish I could still get 3 cent kwh's here;  those days are gone.  From what I understand, correcting power factor doesn't save YOU any money, just the power company.  I'm not going to waste my time.  As a side note, those electronic ballasts in the CFLs have a really bad power factor, but you won't see anyone making a big deal about it.

Most PSCs require that the gas and electric meters be calibrated periodically, but this typically only occurs every 10 years.  They don't calibrate it on site, they just change it and take it back to their shop.  Usually there is a  sticker or other indication of when this last happened.  Most meter designs hold their accuracy pretty well, but can drift over time.  If you suddenly notice a big change, you can call the utility and get them to change the meter out.

The remote reading meters are great if your meter is inside and you work during the week.  I had mine installed after 3 consecutive months of estimated readings and they billed me for the "correction" at the highest rate during that time.  Most utilities will install these meters without charge.  Trying to fool them is a waste of time, as the utility will just demand entrance to your home to check on them if they suspect something is up.  They prosecute meter fraud pretty aggressively.  I once knew a cop in Baltimore who's sole job was investigating meter fraud.  He had some interesting stories......

Chris


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## Gooserider (Mar 28, 2008)

reaperman said:
			
		

> Ever wonder if power meters are actually correct?  Has anyone actually seen a  power company calibrate one?  I know here in Mn, the dept of weights and measures, requires annual certification of accuracy for scales, gas pumps, and any other devise of that kind where consumers are charged by pound, gallon, etc.  I'm sure all states take this measure.  I have never heard, or have seen a power company calibrate a power or natural gas meter.



Never seen them change out or test an electric meter, but I've had several occasions living in different places where they've changed out my gas meter - with stated reason that they were taking the old one in for a calibration check, and replacing it with one that had just been calibrated.

Gooserider


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## MainePellethead (Mar 28, 2008)

I heard something a little while back that soon(if not already) we will be able to buy meter readers that will tell us exactly what our appliances,lights, stoves etc etc is using individually and we would be able to see exactly what our bill would be by figuring it out from the readout x the kilowatt price.....anyone hear of that?


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## d.n.f. (Mar 28, 2008)

There is some device you can buy that tells you exactly the electrical usage of the appliance in question.  Saw it on some tv show.

As per above I was not saying to tamper with your meter.  I was saying I would like the meter reader to get out of her car and have to look at my meter when it is -20C outside cause I hate her.


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## Gooserider (Mar 28, 2008)

I have seen advertised, a gizmo that attaches to the side of your electric meter, and will supposedly transmit your reading info to a receiver inside the house, and even figure the cost for consumption - about $140.  This is good for the entire house, but IMHO it's a really painful way to try and figure what any individual appliance is drawing.

A partial solution for that is a gizmo called a "Kill-A-Watt" meter, which can be gotten lots of places for around $30 or less.  It is a small unit that plugs in between the wall and the thing you want to measure, and calculates and displays the power consumption of the device, along with other things like the voltage, amps, power factor, etc.  It is limited in that it only does 110 VAC and things that use standard plugs - you can't use it on 220V equipment or stuff that's hardwired like your furnace or hot water heater...  However it's a very handy item for normal electrical equipment.

Gooserider


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