# Chainsaw education



## bluedogz (Nov 8, 2011)

So I'm getting ready to drop more money on a new chainsaw than I think I've spent on all previous chainsaws combined.

Folks here recommended using a "narrow kerf .043" chain; I've also seen references here to "skip tooth" chain and other references that make no sense to me.

Any resources to learn a bit more for a chainsaw rookie?  Even Google isn't much help...


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## DanCorcoran (Nov 8, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> So I'm getting ready to drop more money on a new chainsaw than I think I've spent on all previous chainsaws combined.
> 
> Folks here recommended using a "narrow kerf .043" chain; I've also seen references here to "skip tooth" chain and other references that make no sense to me.
> 
> Any resources to learn a bit more for a chainsaw rookie?  Even Google isn't much help...



Thank you for asking this question...I've been confused also.  Perhaps someone can put together a chart or a link to reference material that explains the different types of chains in layman's terms.


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## Bigg_Redd (Nov 8, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> So I'm getting ready to drop more money on a new chainsaw than I think I've spent on all previous chainsaws combined.
> 
> Folks here recommended using a "narrow kerf .043" chain; I've also seen references here to "skip tooth" chain and other references that make no sense to me.
> 
> Any resources to learn a bit more for a chainsaw rookie?  Even Google isn't much help...



I wouldn't worry about the kerf if you're buying from an established and reputable dealer. The saw will be set up properly and ready to run.  If you're buying on line, well, good luck.  Even then I don't think kerf is that big 'o deal.  

I definitely recommend skip tooth chains.  Having cut many many hours with full comp and skip tooth chains I can say with no uncertainty whatsoever that there is no time penalty in the cut for running one, and there's half the teeth to file.


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## bluedogz (Nov 8, 2011)

Bigg_Redd said:
			
		

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Redd, this thrad will give some background:  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/81203/

Great.. but what does that MEAN?  WTF is a kerf?  What is a skip tooth, and why?  What does .043' measure, in my reference?


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## HittinSteel (Nov 8, 2011)

a top handle will likely come with narrow kerf picco chain....... and you don't need skip chain on a 16" bar


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## MasterMech (Nov 8, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> So I'm getting ready to drop more money on a new chainsaw than I think I've spent on all previous chainsaws combined.
> 
> Folks here recommended using a "narrow kerf .043" chain; I've also seen references here to "skip tooth" chain and other references that make no sense to me.
> 
> Any resources to learn a bit more for a chainsaw rookie?  Even Google isn't much help...



Skip tooth chain simply has every other cutter missing.  It's for saws running super long (28" +) bars or saws running a bigger bar than it would normally.  The idea is there are less chips in the cut to clog up the chain as it's drawn through a super long cut.  We recommended the .043 chain for the MS192T cause it's a small saw with limited power compared to it's big brothers.  But in the 12-16" range on a 30cc saw, a skip tooth chain would be unecessary if were even available.

Here's Stihl's explanation of the different chain types.

http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/identify.html

Found this in an older thread:

Green label chain is â€œlow-kickbackâ€, â€œhomeownerâ€, or â€œsafety chainâ€.
Yellow label chain is often called â€œaggressiveâ€ chain.

Stihl Micro is Semi-Chisel (Rounded Cutters)
Stihl Super is Full-Chisel (Sharp Pointed Cutters)
Stihl Picco is equivilant to â€œLow-Proâ€ or Low-Profile chain from other brands.

Common chain pitches: 1/4â€, 3/8 Low-Pro, .325, 3/8â€, .404â€

Chain pitch is the distance between any three consective rivets divided by two.
Chain gauge is the thickness of the drive links and sometimes the tie-straps/cutters.
Chain length is the number of drive links in the chain loop.

Full Skip means the chain has half the usual number of cutters compared to a normal full-comp chain.
Half Skip means the chain has 2/3 the usual number of cutters compared to a normal full-comp chain.
Full Comp means the chain has all of itâ€™s cutters and is what typically is on any given saw that isnâ€™t on a logging truck or in Jayâ€™s shop.

I highly recomend browsing Stihlâ€™s library of chain info and watching their videos for how-toâ€™s on chain ID and sharpening.  Lots of great info that applies to far more than just their product.  The more you learn about chain the more youâ€™ll like theirs tho so watch out!   ;-) 

http://stihldealer.net/videolibrary/OnePlayer.aspx?v=22&vt=22&vb=0&id=22 - The chainsaw instructional video.
http://www.stihlusa.com/information/STIHL-Sharp-Advice-Saw-Chain-Guide-Bars.pdf


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## bogydave (Nov 8, 2011)

Kerf; The width of the cut, the teeth are a little wider than the bar, the Kerf is how wide the teeth are from one side to the other.
Skip tooth: Most chains have a tooth every other link, a skip tooth skips a link, 2 links between each tooth.
Advantages are for longer bar lengths in big wood. You have less teeth biting into the wood & can maintain more rpm. Not much advantage on 20" or less unless you have a 20" bar on a saw designed for a 16" bar.
If you have experience & are safe with a chain saw & plan on cutting fire wood, just get a full chisel chain, more "kick back" dangers but  "fast cutting".
If you are buying the saw from a good dealer, tell them what type of cutting you will be doing mostly, your experience level, they can set you up with the correct chain. (a good dealer anyway)
PS: you should be able to get a free extra chain with a new purchase  
I've found for my 20" saws, a full chisel cuts faster than a skip tooth. But most of my cutting is 16" or less diameter rounds.


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## smokinj (Nov 9, 2011)

Sounds like I will say the same thing here. 043 is for a small saw and makes it cut where other 30-35cc have never been able to before. Skip tooth is normally used of the big boy's when a monster bar is need just to reach the other side.


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 9, 2011)

They put one of those .043 bar and chain on my 180C when I bought it. It cut well but seemed very flimsy compared to the .050 that is on my 041.
The nose roller diameter was very small as well.
I went back and bought an .050 bar and chain and was much happier.

You can probably start with the narrow chain and bar and if you don't like it upgrade to what suits you. You could also get the narrow chain/bar in 14" and the wider in 16" and have a little more verstility from the same saw.

.043 refers to the thickness of the bottom of the tooth in inches that is driven by the sprocket. If this is narrow the cutter and bar will be thinner as well.

Thinner isn't bad, just seemed kind of light duty to me for what I was using it for.


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## bluedogz (Nov 9, 2011)

I think this means the addiction is starting... I followed MasterMech's links and watched the WHOLE video.

Of course, it says to never use a chainsaw with one hand.


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## wkpoor (Nov 9, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> So I'm getting ready to drop more money on a new chainsaw than I think I've spent on all previous chainsaws combined.
> 
> Folks here recommended using a "narrow kerf .043" chain; I've also seen references here to "skip tooth" chain and other references that make no sense to me.
> 
> Any resources to learn a bit more for a chainsaw rookie?  Even Google isn't much help...


Read my sig line. :lol:


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## smokinj (Nov 9, 2011)

kettensÃ¤ge said:
			
		

> They put one of those .043 bar and chain on my 180C when I bought it. It cut well but seemed very flimsy compared to the .050 that is on my 041.
> The nose roller diameter was very small as well.
> I went back and bought an .050 bar and chain and was much happier.
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Your running a .50 on a 180?


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 9, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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No it's a .050


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## Danno77 (Nov 9, 2011)

kettensÃ¤ge said:
			
		

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What size bar? Which chain? This is interesting.


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 9, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

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16" bar, Semi chisel non safety, all directly from the dealer. 
Works almost as good as the 041 with a 16" full chisel non safety, but not as awe inspiring.  

Dealer said most people come back and make the change, I would have liked to know when I bought it. I couldn't plunge cut if I wanted to with the 043 and small dia. nose wheel. 


The original bar and chain is in my toolbox as a back-up hasn't been on the saw since. 


In stock form these saw are pure homeowner, with the right changes they can be made better.


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## Danno77 (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm surprised it has enough umph for that setup. Also surprised to hear a dealer say that a lot of people make that switch. You're the first I've heard!


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## MasterMech (Nov 9, 2011)

You can do 3/8" Picco .050 chain on any of Stihl's small saws (the B&C off a MS210 fit just fine) but I don't see the advantage of increasing the gauge on a MS180 or smaller. (That includes the MS170 and MS192)  Your asking the saw for more power, slows down the motor and hence slows the cutting.  The extra R's the .043 (PMMC3) chain will give you mean faster cutting speed since it's the same number of cutters in the loop but they have a smaller profile.  Yeah the (PMC3) .050 chain and bar look/feel "beefier" but I'll race ya' with the .043 any day.

Plus the .043 is inexpensive to buy extra loops or replacements.


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## smokinj (Nov 9, 2011)

kettensÃ¤ge said:
			
		

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In no way does a .050 make that saw perform better.


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 9, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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Agree, it does cut a little slower, but there are other measures to consider.


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## smokinj (Nov 10, 2011)

kettensÃ¤ge said:
			
		

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This is chain I run on my 460 and 880. I would really love to run 043 on the 880, but there are other measures to consider. ;-)


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 10, 2011)

It's not always about speed, Thats why you don't use a race car to haul wood or drive to work.


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## smokinj (Nov 10, 2011)

kettensÃ¤ge said:
			
		

> It's not always about speed, Thats why you don't use a race car to haul wood or drive to work.



Ok I think that I figure this out. Your running #3610 61 PMMC3 50 This should be what you have . This is not a .50 chain. Thank god. Could not see how you would even pull that chain....
This is a low profile chain. I would rather run the 043. (It really make these low powered saws worth the extra look) Add the low pro to your #s it make a big difference. :lol:


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 10, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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I'll check it when I get home, but, why would the dealer sell me a different bar since I already had an .043 bar? I specifically asked for a stronger bar and bought a .050 bar and chain, and yes this chain is different than the .050 thats on my 041 Farm Boss. I didn't like the small nose wheel, safety chain, and the very flimsy feeling .043 bar, so I improved these measures of my saw.

I will add that I found a thimble shaped and sized (like the ones used for sewing)black plastic piece in the air inlet to the carb. Cone shaped, slides into the port leading to the carb. IIRC it had some rectangular holes in the bottom near the choke plate. Looked like it would create restriction. 
I removed it and have been using the saw like this for years with no problem. 

Maybe that why she cuts so good with the .050 chain.  ;-)


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## smokinj (Nov 10, 2011)

kettensÃ¤ge said:
			
		

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Its a ".050 low pro pico"...lol (Same chain there working on for 660 milling) I can tell you it would run even better with the .043. The air intake I cant even rember the set-up but any extra clean air always helps. Guess the hard part here is everyone else is racking there brains to go smaller....Heck milage would even be better with the 043.


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## bluedogz (Nov 10, 2011)

You guys could be having this conversation in Korean for all I'm getting out of it...


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## smokinj (Nov 10, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> You guys could be having this conversation in Korean for all I'm getting out of it...



Smaller the chain the better things can happen. Now you still got to be safe! .043 is proven so use it your saw will work less, last longer, cut faster, and better fuel miliage.  :cheese:


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## Bigg_Redd (Nov 10, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

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Kerf = the width of the cut.  More kerf means more wood turned into chip.  

Skip tooth = a cutter every other link instead of every link.  

.043 is probably your kerf.  

Again, I wouldn't worry about kerf.   The saw will come with the right bar and chain.


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 10, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> You guys could be having this conversation in Korean for all I'm getting out of it...





Sorry to get kinda off topic. I'll stick with my original recomendation, get what comes with the saw. If you don't like it you know you can upgrade. 

Or, get both in different bar lengths and you'll have the best of both worlds.


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## bluedogz (Nov 10, 2011)

You guys find the nicest ways to say, "Dude, you're thinking way too much."


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## smokinj (Nov 10, 2011)

I mill logs and have a chain sharpening business. Its what I do! ;-)   Keeping the saw from working any harder than it has to is very very key! Works on the cross cut to. :cheese:
(Few 1000 drive links a week.)


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## kettensÃ¤ge (Nov 11, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

> I mill logs and have a chain sharpening business. Its what I do! ;-)   Keeping the saw from working any harder than it has to is very very key! Works on the cross cut to. :cheese:
> (Few 1000 drive links a week.)





Wow.   :zip:  :zip:


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## smokinj (Nov 11, 2011)

kettensÃ¤ge said:
			
		

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Thats more than most do in a 3 years. If you want to use more fuel work your saw harder and cut slower, use the bigger chain. I would kill for a smaller kerf.......Anyone who mills know this all to well. Its ok run what you want not trying to convince you, you have already made up your mind
880 is running 3/8... If the 043 would not snap under 122cc's It would be on there! Use the shortest bar and smallest kerf you can get by with.....


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## oilstinks (Nov 11, 2011)

No joke jay! Im considering a 18" or 16" for my dual port 460. I can always change the bar back if i need to fell a large tree or come to a log that is large diameter.


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## smokinj (Nov 11, 2011)

oilstinks said:
			
		

> No joke jay! Im considering a 18" or 16" for my dual port 460. I can always change the bar back if i need to fell a large tree or come to a log that is large diameter.



I have ran 16 inch on my 460. 28 got stuck. I darn sure didnt buy a 460 with a 16inch in mind either. However it is a blast and run a 20 inch anytime I can. Thats not very often though.Look on the stihl sight and you will see the recominded bar size for an 880 is 21 inch's! If I was running 3/8 chain with a 16 inch Ideally it would be a 260/361....Forgot I sold that one! lol 192t/180 30cc with the 043 is a pretty slick light weight set-up and really works well with the 460. Stick a 16 inch bar and wider kerf and it would stay at the shop.
Running the 16 on the 460 was very weird and throw chips like a mad dog!
http://www.stihlusa.com/chainsaws/MS880.html  ;-)


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## bluedogz (Nov 12, 2011)

First deal has been done, and I have now done the magic of turning a Smith & Wesson 65-6 into a Stihl MS192TC-E.

Stihl shop has a tester unit for me to play with Monday.  Props to the Stihl rep for driving it up from VA just for me.


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## Danno77 (Nov 12, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

> First deal has been done, and I have now done the magic of turning a Smith & Wesson 65-6 into a Stihl MS192TC-E.
> 
> Stihl shop has a tester unit for me to play with Monday.  Props to the Stihl rep for driving it up from VA just for me.


Awesome. Definitely keep us posted on how it works for you.


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## smokinj (Nov 12, 2011)

Danno77 said:
			
		

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SWEEEEEEEEEEt!


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## Flatbedford (Nov 12, 2011)

bluedogz, there is a ton of saw chain information here. http://www.madsens1.com/muu_barchain.htm


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## bluedogz (Nov 13, 2011)

Awesome!  Thanks Ford!


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## TomR (Nov 13, 2011)

Posted to the wrong thread..


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## bluedogz (Nov 14, 2011)

smokinjay said:
			
		

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Back home with my MS192TC (not a TC-E... dealer says they're the same?)

I love love love this saw... I can control it, it doesn't vibrate AT ALL, and it cuts FAST.  Got a 14" bar, low profile chain.

I can start it with two fingers.  No wrestling with the cord.

Anybody want a Homelite 14" electric saw?


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## smokinj (Nov 14, 2011)

bluedogz said:
			
		

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Nice.......I knew you would love it! Be safe and take your time at first. oh and stay below the waist with chaps on!


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## HittinSteel (Nov 15, 2011)

Glad you got a great saw and are happy with it! I cut with my top handle this past weekend..... they are pretty slick.


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## MasterMech (Nov 15, 2011)

Success! Congrats and may your cutting days be long, comfortable, and safe.


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