# Thoughts on Pellet Boilers



## Chris04626 (Jan 31, 2013)

two i have been looking at are
*Harman PB105 Pellet Boiler*

http://mainestoves.com/site/index.p...em&id=98:harman-pb105-pellet-boiler&Itemid=84

and
*MESys Convertible Boiler*



http://www.maineenergysystems.com/MESys_Convertible.htm

Thoughts on these? I believe the MESYS is alot more money but less user maintenance needs to be done


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## hoverfly (Jan 31, 2013)

MESys is based on a European design.


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## Chris04626 (Jan 31, 2013)

is that bad?? i know a couple towns here in Maine are using these systems


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## Jasbolto (Jan 31, 2013)

This guy is a member here and is located in Billerica MA he answered a bunch of questions for me when I was looking at boilers.
http://www.hydro-to-heat-convertor.com/pelletboilers.html


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## Chris04626 (Jan 31, 2013)

did you purchase one?  if so which?


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## Jasbolto (Jan 31, 2013)

I was looking at the BioWin I did not end up getting it I had just purchased my home and there ended up being to many other things that I needed to fix before I bought the new boiler but I do plan on getting one in the next few years.


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## ScotL (Feb 1, 2013)

I bought a PB105 because that was all that was available at the time. The Okefen works well from what I've seen and there's a new boiler from Denmark that's being called a Kedel in Maine.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 1, 2013)

How does the pb105 work for you? How much did it cost?


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## DaveGunter (Feb 1, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> two i have been looking at are
> *Harman PB105 Pellet Boiler*
> 
> http://mainestoves.com/site/index.p...em&id=98:harman-pb105-pellet-boiler&Itemid=84
> ...


 


Depends on where you are maybe, 04626 is that Cutler?

Lee at Revision Heat in Bangor is a straight up guy, he is now offering the Kedel, a friend has one and is very satisfied.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 1, 2013)

yes im in Cutler


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## ScotL (Feb 1, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> How does the pb105 work for you? How much did it cost?


 
It was 5 years ago but I think it was about $7500. It's worked well.
Two of my relatives also put in PB105s the same year and we've all had some warranty work done. One had a burnpot replacement. Mine had a control board and ESP replaced because it doesn't read the water temperature correctly. Still not sure why they replaced the ESP. I ended up fixing it myself by sliding the sensor up a little higher in the well it sits in. I've also replaced the ignitor once (it was warranteed too).
It's very heavy and ruggedly built. We had to disassemble it into 3 pieces and it still took 6 of us to get it down my cellar steps. I like how the burn pot swings out on hinges and is easy to clean. The only PF100 I've seen was extremely difficult to clean. I didn't appreciate the convenience of the PB105 setup until I tried cleaning a PF100.

I've seen 2 of the Okefen boilers and they seemed ok. I didn't get to watch them for very long or open them up.
I've only seen the smallest Kedel boiler and it seemed ok too. But I don't have any operational experience with either of these boilers from Denmark. The control systems appear to be way more advanced than the Harman and they seem to be more versatile in how they are set up.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 1, 2013)

How often is cleaning need to be done on the Harman? How big is your home? It has no issues heating it well?


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## ScotL (Feb 1, 2013)

I don't clean it as much as I should. I try to scrape the burn pot and clean out around the ignitor once per week but sometimes it's 2 weeks. Takes about 5 minutes. I empty the ash pan once a month or so. Once per day I put in pellets and pull the cleaning rods out a few times. It has 3 rods on the side to scrape off the heat exchange tubes. Once a year I put the leafblower on outside and rap on the exhaust ducting. I really should take a brush to the inside of it.

My house is about 2000 sq.ft. with cathedral ceilings. The boiler used to keep up just fine but now it has to work a little harder. I used to set the water temperature down to a max of 150 deg. and burn about 4 tons per year. My wife found a used Four Seasons sunroom in Uncle Henry's a few years ago and we finally installed it last summer. That little glass room is cold! When it was -20 deg outside overnight I had the boiler cranked up with the water at 190 deg. and used just over 4 bags per day. I'll be using about 7 to 8 tons this year. But, yesterday, where it was so warm, I used maybe 1/2 a bag. Just don't install a glass room on the north side of your house and a PB105 will have no problem heating it. Or, if you do have a major heat loss, have a lot of pellets on hand.

I also keep it burning all year because I use it to heat my hot water too. In the summer I'll turn the water temp. settings way down since my DHW is only 120 deg. During the spring, summer, and fall I might burn 1.5 to 2 tons. I haven't kept an accurate count but it's been 2 to 3 bags per week.


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## iceguy4 (Feb 1, 2013)

I have the PB 105 and love it... you should be able to pick it up fot around $6500 before taxes with their $100 OFF DEAL


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## Chris04626 (Feb 1, 2013)

how much generally does installation cost? I would like to hook it in and still be able to use my furnace as back up. IS that possible to have both things installed? Can the Harman have different zones?


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## Mr._Graybeard (Feb 2, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> how much generally does installation cost? I would like to hook it in and still be able to use my furnace as back up. IS that possible to have both things installed? Can the Harman have different zones?


 
A heating contractor in Wisconsin installed my PB105 boiler for about $2K. He put in a primary/secondary loop that has the oil and pellet boilers hooked up in parallel so the pellet boiler needn't heat the oil boiler's water jacket when it runs.

Oops, I forgot that the venting was done separately by the Harman dealer. So add another $475 to that total.


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## hoverfly (Feb 2, 2013)

hoverfly said:


> MESys is based on a European design.


Nope, Europe is far ahead of us in pellet boilers than we are.  I believe MESys is a self cleaning system where you only have to dump the ash once or twice a year.  Just make sure you do your fact finding home work.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 2, 2013)

Yes thats a big plus on the mesys is auto cleaning.  They said roughly 20k installed unit itself is 9999 but the 20k also includes a 3 ton pellet storage hopper.

They said i couldnt do that unit because that requires pellet delivery through them, and they don't deliver to my area. said i would have to go with the convertible unit for $9999 that holds 300 pounds of pellets at a time.

The PB105 i was told would cost 7999 for the unit by the closest dealer   but that requires alot more cleaning i guess.


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## iceguy4 (Feb 2, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> Yes thats a big plus on the mesys is auto cleaning. They said roughly 20k installed unit itself is 9999 but the 20k also includes a 3 ton pellet storage hopper.
> 
> They said i couldnt do that unit because that requires pellet delivery through them, and they don't deliver to my area. said i would have to go with the convertible unit for $9999 that holds 300 pounds of pellets at a time.
> 
> The PB105 i was told would cost 7999 for the unit by the closest dealer but that requires alot more cleaning i guess.


 
list price is only $7100.00...your dealing with an A-hole...where do you live...bet I can ship you a unit for around 7000 dollars...plus tax on 6500...roughly 8% of 6500


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 2, 2013)

Check out this link: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...m-and-3-ton-hopper-waldo-county-maine.101162/
DIY pellet storage


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## sinnian (Feb 2, 2013)

Look into the Pinnacle PB150 (click my signature).  I have had one for 4 years and it heats my 2100 + sq ft home, and could heat larger.  Oldest running pellet boiler in North America.  Simple design, doesn't have all those circuit board controls ~ which means less can go wrong.  If something does go wrong, Mark is always available.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 2, 2013)

how many btus is the harman?  The mesys convertible unit is 68k but said it would heat 2000 sq feet i\on its mid to high setting


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## iceguy4 (Feb 2, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> how many btus is the harman? The mesys convertible unit is 68k but said it would heat 2000 sq feet i\on its mid to high setting


 

up to 114,000 BTU


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## Chris04626 (Feb 2, 2013)

nice. I have an old wood furnace next to my current furnace i am hoping to have removed this summer and i think that would be a perfect spot for a pellet boiler.

Can a furnace and pellet boiler share a chimney?


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## iceguy4 (Feb 2, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> nice. I have an old wood furnace next to my current furnace i am hoping to have removed this summer and i think that would be a perfect spot for a pellet boiler.
> 
> Can a furnace and pellet boiler share a chimney?


 
[QUOTECan a furnace and pellet boiler share a chimney][/QUOTE]  Never!!

the PB 105 is a direct vent so it requires only a short shot through basement wall


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## Chris04626 (Feb 2, 2013)

I just found out in Maine your allowed to have two things connected to one chimney


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## sinnian (Feb 2, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> I just found out in Maine your allowed to have two things connected to one chimney


 
And one of them shouldn't be a pellet boiler!

You mentioned "furnace" in another post, was that an accident?  A boiler and a furnace are two very different things.  The Harmand and MESys that you are looking at are not furnaces, they're boilers.

The Pinnacle PB150 Biomass Boiler:

80,000 or 130,000 btu/hr    Efficiency  80%
Works in series with your existing boiler
to provide heat and hot water for larger homes,
mutli-units, churches and commercial buildings.
Will offset 75-90% of oil and leave you warmer.
Intertek Safety Listed, A.S.M.E. Stamped
Building Size      2,000 to 6,000 sq.ft
Size             60”hi x 40”wide x 27”deep
Weight                       560 lbs
Hopper Capacity    160 – 240 lbs
Flue Size  4”        Power  110 volt
Has Tankless coil, LWCO, Pump, Relief
Price $ 6,950 + freight, tax, install
http://www.evergreenheat.com/our-home-heating-products/traeger-pinnacle-biomass-boilers/
Doesn't cost anything to ask questions.  Mark is a great guy ~ tell him Jeff sent you


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## Chris04626 (Feb 2, 2013)

Yes i have an old wood furnace that dont work, and a oil boiler now.   Wood furnance is coming out as soon as the weather warms up.. And i hope to have a boiler put in its place next to my oil boiler, by next winter.


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## smwilliamson (Feb 3, 2013)

You really cannot compare the Okefen (MySys Auto Pellet) and the Harman PB105. While the PB105 is a great boiler, and even better by the price, it has some drawbacks. First, it utilizes single stage combustion, so you are going to need a large dump zone or a very large super store. It is not nearly as efficient and will require a bit of daily, weekly, monthly maintenance...the Okefen utilizes 2 stage combustion and can somewhat turn off the heat on demand, thus incorporating into your existing plumbing a bit easier. The price tag is hefty. The maintenance it near zero. The Harman will react differently across pellet brands, the Okefen will not...or not so much. The Okefen is also scalable...whereas the PB105 is not so much.


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## wil lanfear (Feb 3, 2013)

smwilliamson said:


> You really cannot compare the Okefen (MySys Auto Pellet) and the Harman PB105. While the PB105 is a great boiler, and even better by the price, it has some drawbacks. First, it utilizes single stage combustion, so you are going to need a large dump zone or a very large super store. It is not nearly as efficient and will require a bit of daily, weekly, monthly maintenance...the Okefen utilizes 2 stage combustion and can somewhat turn off the heat on demand, thus incorporating into your existing plumbing a bit easier. The price tag is hefty. The maintenance it near zero. The Harman will react differently across pellet brands, the Okefen will not...or not so much. The Okefen is also scalable...whereas the PB105 is not so much.


Why do you feel that one needs a large dump zone or a very large SuperStor ? I've been using my boiler for nearly 6 years now, I do have a dump zone in case the boiler may overheat, never has though.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 3, 2013)

So you think the Convertible model is just as good? They say the auto pellet one is not available in my area due to it requiring pellet delivery and they do not deliver to my area at this time.

They say the convertible is only available in 68k btu while the Harman is 114,000btu.                  Does that still make the mesys better?  My worry is it not heating my house.  Like i said i have the englander 25 pvc right now the 2200 sq foot one and it has issues heating the room its in on sub zero days to get the room the stove is in to 70


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## Centurion (Feb 3, 2013)

Interesting comments on the Harman PB105. My dump zone is my heating system but I keep high temp at 180* and never seen it go into dump. I've had my boiler 4 years now and scrape the burnpot and pull the exchanger rods once a week, clean the combustion fan twice a year, dump the ashes 3 to 4 times a year, and a thorough cleaning with chimney once a year. I'm not saying that this is what Harman recommends.....just sayin that it works for me with the pellets that I burn.


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## wil lanfear (Feb 3, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> So you think the Convertible model is just as good? They say the auto pellet one is not available in my area due to it requiring pellet delivery and they do not deliver to my area at this time.
> 
> They say the convertible is only available in 68k btu while the Harman is 114,000btu. Does that still make the mesys better? My worry is it not heating my house. Like i said i have the englander 25 pvc right now the 2200 sq foot one and it has issues heating the room its in on sub zero days to get the room the stove is in to 70


 My advice to you is, don't undersize a pellet boiler unless you don't have an issue with the oil boiler being fired to help heat the home when the temps require it. I used to burn around 1000 gal of fuel oil per year for heat and DHW prior to installing the pellet boiler, now, 0 gal of oil, 8.3 tons of pellets for heat and DHW ( yes, pellets heating DHW in the summer months zoned using a SuperStor) plus the fact that using pellets we keep the home around 3* warmer.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 3, 2013)

Thats what im afraid of is ending up with somethign thats not strong enough to heat the home.  I do like the fact of the autocleaning mesys  system as im gone for work alot


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## velvetfoot (Feb 3, 2013)

Is the pb105 really through wall, for sure? That would really save a lot of money.


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## heaterman (Feb 3, 2013)

There are a lot of factors to consider in the purchase of a boiler (any fuel type) I tend to look at the design and construction first.

I have to say the best i have seen for the money so far is the Windhager Exclusive series that is now available in this country. We installed one for a customer the first of December and I've just been amazed by the performance of this unit. It is self cleaning and combustion is so complete I doubt a person would have to remove the ash container (wheeled) to empty more than a couple times per season even if the boiler was operating at 100% output for most of the time. I looked in the flue pipe of the one we installed after it had been in operation for 6 weeks and the inside of the pipe was bright and shiny yet.
The Windhager uses two stage combustion via primary and secondary air in the burn pot (which is heavy gauge stainless) and they seem to have it absolutely nailed. There isn't a trace of black soot anywhere. The burn pot and flues are automatically cleaned and residue is dumped down into the bottom of the combustion chamber where an auger moves it into the ash container. To take care of the ashes you simply unlatch the container, pull out the retractable handle and roll it to wherever you are going to empty it out.
I also like the mechanism they've designed to take care of residue in the burn pot. It's like the shutter on a camera with overlapping plates that scrape them selves clean when it opens. Really slick idea there.
The burner is automatic turn down to as low as 30% firing rate based on load so on/off cycles are reduced to a bare minimum. That is a big advantage when it comes to wear and tear on components and enable the unit to operate at maximum efficiency under nearly all weather conditions from mild to frigid. Measured efficiency on the one we installed has never been observed lower than 87% when I tested the flue gas and I have seen it over 90% 
 (without condensation) more than once.
The electronic control is simple to operate and you can program different time/temperature schedules into it to set back your entire system automatically without having to mess with a programmable t-stat(s) in the house.

I saw someone mention that one of the brands they were looking at could be sidewall vented. Some would consider this to be an advantage but there is something very important to keep in mind with any biomass fueled boiler. Windhager says the boiler has to be connected to a chimney and it is primarily for this reason......When you have a gas or oil fired boiler in operation and the power goes off the fuel supply stops instantly. With biomass that is not the case. There is always fuel present in the firebox when you have a fire going in there. If the draft fan quits for whatever reason what happens to the unburned fuel? It smolders and creates CO by the bucket load. If you have a sidewall vent chances are very good there is not enough draft to carry all the combustion gases outside so they wind up leaking out into your house. Not good. If you have the boiler vented into a chimney, the draft will take the residual gas up and out. Is this going to happen a lot? Probably not but it only takes one time to have a carbon monoxide tragedy on your hands. Call me a fan of chimneys.

I would say that anyone considering a pellet boiler should at least look at one of these. I am flat out impressed with the product and the way it performs. It would make me think very hard about burning cordwood if I had to make a decision between the two fuel types.

This is a very well established and proven unit with over 45,000 in use throughout the world so they are not a new kid on the block. Very good track record.


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## sinnian (Feb 3, 2013)

The more bells a unit has, the more that can go wrong with it


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## wil lanfear (Feb 3, 2013)

sinnian said:


> The more bells a unit has, the more that can go wrong with it


X2


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## smwilliamson (Feb 4, 2013)

That bells and whistles saying was coined by a small minded, short sighted and most likely financially challenged consumer that couldn't afford an upgrade. The Okefen isn't all bells and whistles, it's better design and by virtue of design it can do more work safer and more effciently with less work on the user.


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## sinnian (Feb 4, 2013)

smwilliamson said:


> That bells and whistles saying was coined by a small minded, short sighted and most likely financially challenged consumer that couldn't afford an upgrade. The Okefen isn't all bells and whistles, it's better design and by virtue of design it can do more work safer and more effciently with less work on the user.


 
Says the guy that will probably get the service call ~ great business model!  Many solid fuel installers in Maine, few repair techs.

Pretty presumptuous, and insulting statement made by you ~ about me.  However, my statement still rings true no matter whatever the product.  The more it can do, the more that can go wring with it.

And by the way, my PB150 still measured 87% efficiency after 4 years, a few weeks ago.  Who upgrades a $10K+ heating appliance after 4 years?

OH I get it now!  You're sore because what you get with the Pinnacle is excellent customer service, backed by the seller.  If you have a problem, he comes out and fixes it, versus YOU getting the service call ~ Unlike (some) Harman, and MESys.

Yes there are some great pellet/biomass boilers out there now, but I'll keep my Pinnacle.  Nothing can go wrong with it that I can't fix, or have Mark here the same day fixing.  No bad ignitors, control boards, additional motors, etc. etc.

What a pompous POS you are Mr. Williams.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 4, 2013)

SO basically there are a bunch of options and most everyone have their own options on which system is best lol


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## sinnian (Feb 4, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> SO basically there are a bunch of options and most everyone have their own options on which system is best lol


 
Yes.  But think about who would service your appliance if something were to happen to it.  Doesn't cost anything to talk to EVERYONE.  The Harmon and Pinnacle would be comprable to the amount of service you would have to perform.  The European models will have less that you will have to do in regards to service.  If there was an issue that you could not resolve with the Harmon and European models, who would be there to resolve the issue?

I would also not direct vent a biomass boiler, too many issues for that chance of a power failure.  While you could probably use your existing flue, I would bet that you would need to get it lined before you could use it.

My pellet boiler had issues with the pellets I used the first year.  They were the CleanFire Hardwood, and as silly as it sounds, were compressed too hard.  I went through 3 Lovejoy couplings.  Traded a few bags with Mark (the Pinnacle dealer), and they broke his as well.  Not only did Mark step up to the plate giving me money for oil, but Pinnacle stepped up to the plate.  They said they were not going to let a pellet get the best of them, and gave me a redesigned cutter, and designed a new coupling system and motor.  Haven't had an issue since ~ and it was definitely the pellets, not the original design.

Keep us updated with whatever you decide.  Very few of us boiler guys compared to the pellet stove guys out there.  

Btw ~ I used to use about 800-1000 gallons of oil a year, now use 5-6 tons of pellets.  Though I shut down the unit in the off season, and use an electric hot water heater for domestic HW ~ I also use it as storage in the heating season ~ basically HOT water from the boiler goes into it, instead of cold water.

Other than when the air conditioners get turned on in the summer, I don't notice a difference in my electric bill.

Anyway good luck!


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## heaterman (Feb 4, 2013)

"I went through 3 Lovejoy couplings...."

Not picking a fight here. Just pointing out differences in the construction of some of the units on the market and this is a good for instance.

On the Windhager I mentioned there are no Lovejoy type couplings in the drive line of the auger. The pellet feed has a direct drive motor connected to a right angle gear box. No slip and plenty of horsepower to shear off any pellet you may encounter with ease. There are some pretty pronounced differences when you get to looking at all the stuff out there.


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## wil lanfear (Feb 4, 2013)

heaterman said:


> "I went through 3 Lovejoy couplings...."
> 
> Not picking a fight here. Just pointing out differences in the construction of some of the units on the market and this is a good for instance.
> 
> On the Windhager I mentioned there are no Lovejoy type couplings in the drive line of the auger. The pellet feed has a direct drive motor connected to a right angle gear box. No slip and plenty of horsepower to shear off any pellet you may encounter with ease. There are some pretty pronounced differences when you get to looking at all the stuff out there.


 Totally agree with you about differences in construction of these boilers but...... one needs to realize at some point that one may need a part replaced or service of some sort or maybe just to buy a replacement part to install yourself so......... if no dealer is in your area, what will you do???


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## Mr._Graybeard (Feb 4, 2013)

My PB 105 is direct vented and we've had several power failures this winter. No significant smoke entered the house. Just my experience.

I've got a CO detector mounted right next to the boiler just in case, BTW.


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## wil lanfear (Feb 4, 2013)

sinnian,
The Pinnacle pb 150 doesn't have electronic ignition so I'm wondering how you are controlling the boiler from overheating when temps outside, (like a 45-50* day), don't require much heat to heat your home. I know it should go  into pilot mode when the high limit setting has been reached but it just seems to me when a fire of any size is burning after the high limit setting has been reached, it will overheat the boiler which should activate a dump loop.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 4, 2013)

At the moment i am leaning towards the Harman and the MySys. My concern with the MeSys is it can only go up to 68k btu There is a Harman dealer about an hour hour and a half from me. But im really big on the looks and the ease of the MySys just wish i could get pellet delivery here so i could get one of their bigger units.


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## sinnian (Feb 4, 2013)

wil lanfear said:


> sinnian,
> The Pinnacle pb 150 doesn't have electronic ignition so I'm wondering how you are controlling the boiler from overheating when temps outside, (like a 45-50* day), don't require much heat to heat your home. I know it should go into pilot mode when the high limit setting has been reached but it just seems to me when a fire of any size is burning after the high limit setting has been reached, it will overheat the boiler which should activate a dump loop.


 
It has a set pilot mode, either every 6 minutes for 2 minutes or every 14 minutes for 2 minutes.  There is a dump zone, per code when it was installed ~ since not a requirement ~ but have never needed it.  It will also shut completely down if it reaches its high limit.  It isn't like an oiler boiler, it runs at the low limit.  The high limit is the shut off point, and will cycle back on automatically once it cools down.  That has only happened twice in 4 years that I know of.

It is the oldest (the PB 150, not mine specifically) operating biomass boiler in North America.  The furnaces have been around even longer.


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## harttj (Feb 4, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> At the moment i am leaning towards the Harman and the MySys. My concern with the MeSys is it can only go up to 68k btu There is a Harman dealer about an hour hour and a half from me. But im really big on the looks and the ease of the MySys just wish i could get pellet delivery here so i could get one of their bigger units.



Have you calculated how many bags per day you will need at 68k?

You most likely will never want to run at that level for very long. 

I was pulling 55k for a couple of days in Jan. Not pleasant on the pellet stash. 

Tim


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## Chris04626 (Feb 4, 2013)

no i haven't. I know with just my pellet stove cranked to the max i can burn 2-3 a day. That is why i want a boiler thats plenty big enough to heat the home so i dont need it cranked to the max all the time like i do with this stove.


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## wil lanfear (Feb 4, 2013)

sinnian said:


> It has a set pilot mode, either every 6 minutes for 2 minutes or every 14 minutes for 2 minutes. There is a dump zone, per code when it was installed ~ since not a requirement ~ but have never needed it. It will also shut completely down if it reaches its high limit. It isn't like an oiler boiler, it runs at the low limit. The high limit is the shut off point, and will cycle back on automatically once it cools down. That has only happened twice in 4 years that I know of.
> 
> It is the oldest (the PB 150, not mine specifically) operating biomass boiler in North America. The furnaces have been around even longer.


 After finding the owners manual I now understand how the boiler controls function, keeping a fire burning all the time unless the boiler is shut down (fuel stops being fed) do to a high limit overheat situation.

/r/_ylt=A0oG7hg.HxBRlgYA2iBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0cW0zOGx2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA01TWTAwMl83OA--/SIG=12np9dli7/EXP=1360039870/**http%3a//www.pinnaclestove.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/pb150mn.pdf


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## harttj (Feb 4, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> no i haven't. I know with just my pellet stove cranked to the max i can burn 2-3 a day. That is why i want a boiler thats plenty big enough to heat the home so i dont need it cranked to the max all the time like i do with this stove.





Chris04626 said:


> no i haven't. I know with just my pellet stove cranked to the max i can burn 2-3 a day. That is why i want a boiler thats plenty big enough to heat the home so i dont need it cranked to the max all the time like i do with this stove.



3 bags a day is 40k input and 4 bags is 53k input.  Is your stove heating your house now?  

Unless there is an issue I don't see how a house could require 100k. 

Maybe worthwhile to determine your true heat load. 

Tim


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## iceguy4 (Feb 4, 2013)

velvetfoot said:


> Is the pb105 really through wall, for sure? That would really save a lot of money.


 

 It absolutely does go right out the basement wall and terminates 18" above the ground.  This was one of the main reasons I chose this boiler.


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## heaterman (Feb 4, 2013)

wil lanfear said:


> Totally agree with you about differences in construction of these boilers but...... one needs to realize at some point that one may need a part replaced or service of some sort or maybe just to buy a replacement part to install yourself so......... if no dealer is in your area, what will you do???


 
Become the dealer!!


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## SmokeEater (Feb 4, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> Yes i have an old wood furnace that dont work, and a oil boiler now. Wood furnance is coming out as soon as the weather warms up.. And i hope to have a boiler put in its place next to my oil boiler, by next winter.


Chris, I have had my PB-105 for nearly a full year now and have similar experiences as all the other owners of the Harman.  Solidly built, very easy to clean once every week or two.  This will only take five minutes with a vacuun handy.  Clean the burnpot, vacuun around, wash the sight window off with a little windex, close it all up, put in 3 or 4 bags of pellets and you're good to go.  I connected a 100 gallon Triangle Tube IWH to the Harman along with my oil boiler.  The Triangle's water is potable so that's also my DHW and all I want.  I have the Harman's aquastat turned to it's max 185-190* and the oil boiler only runs if the Harman runs out of pellets and the Triangle's water temp drops to 145*.    I've maybe burned 5 gallons of oil this winter and my home's heated area is about 3000 sq. ft.  In the year I've burned 9 tons of pellets, but don't use the Triangle in the summer, so neither the oil boiler nor the Harman run in the off season to provide DHW.  I use an electric tank for that time.


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## Chris04626 (Feb 6, 2013)

harttj said:


> 3 bags a day is 40k input and 4 bags is 53k input. Is your stove heating your house now?
> 
> Unless there is an issue I don't see how a house could require 100k.
> 
> ...


 
The stove heats the room its in well, but out in the kitchen is a good 5 degree different. I have had old windows put in when the house was built in 1978 i am in the process of having them replaced so i am hoping this will help out on the heating/


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## smwilliamson (Feb 7, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Says the guy that will probably get the service call ~ great business model! Many solid fuel installers in Maine, few repair techs.
> 
> Pretty presumptuous, and insulting statement made by you ~ about me. However, my statement still rings true no matter whatever the product. The more it can do, the more that can go wring with it.
> 
> ...


Unless you coined the phrase "bells and whistles" the comment was not about you. What I'm saying...things that cost more are often disregarded with such comments pointing toward, "more options=more to fail" which isn't really true but is propagated throughout society and generally taken as gospel.

I truly do appreciate simplicity in design. Glad you like your Pinnacle and thanks for sharing. Yeah...you got me figured out....I like the units that have very few service techs...both are dealer supported and somewhat exclude me yet I still give hem props...

My my, don't be so emotional and by the way, it's Williamson, Scott Williamson....da, da da-da, da (queue music from James Bond)


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## Chris04626 (Feb 7, 2013)

how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our


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## harttj (Feb 7, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our



Heat loss calc at design temperature. There are some online ones that will get you in the ballpark if your honest about the insulation. Having an energy audit and or air loss test would help also. 

If your currently heating the house with the stove with some temperature gradients you can use that as a starting point. Also need to understand how much you'll loose in the distribution system. 

Tim


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## PassionForFire&Water (Feb 8, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our


 
Hi Chris,

I second "harttj" post.
That is the only correct way to do it.

To give you some first ball park number on heat loss, you can use these guidelines for "moderate" New England conditions:

- old house not insulated or poorly insulated: SF of house x 37 BTU/sf

- house in 2x4 stick construction fairly well insulated:  SF of house x 30 BTU/sf

- house in 2x6 stick construction very well insulated and tight:  SF of house x 25 BTU/sf

- house in 2x6 stick construction super insulated and very tight:  SF of house x 15 BTU/sf

- Passive House: SF of house x 8 BTU/sf

Example:
a 2x6 stick build house in 2012 of 2,500 SF should have a max heat loss of 2,500 x 25 = 62,500 BTU/hr
The same square footage for an old house would result in 2,500SF x 37 = 92,500 BTU/hr

The above guidelines include for DHW for 2 adults and 2 kids.

These guidelines are up for lots of discussions and other trade professionals will have their say on them, but it gives you a ballpark.
If you apply them you will not end up with a boiler that is way over-sized.


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## ScotL (May 3, 2013)

ScotL said:


> It was 5 years ago but I think it was about $7500. It's worked well.
> Two of my relatives also put in PB105s the same year and we've all had some warranty work done. One had a burnpot replacement. Mine had a control board and ESP replaced because it doesn't read the water temperature correctly. Still not sure why they replaced the ESP. I ended up fixing it myself by sliding the sensor up a little higher in the well it sits in. I've also replaced the ignitor once (it was warranteed too).
> It's very heavy and ruggedly built. We had to disassemble it into 3 pieces and it still took 6 of us to get it down my cellar steps. I like how the burn pot swings out on hinges and is easy to clean. The only PF100 I've seen was extremely difficult to clean. I didn't appreciate the convenience of the PB105 setup until I tried cleaning a PF100.
> 
> ...


 
Now that the Kedel is working and I've had some experience with it, I thought I'd update this.
I've had less problems with the Kedel than I did with the PB105 right after installation - even though the Kedel is much more complex. The setup issues were resolved quickly and it's been working well. This is one of the smaller Kedels and has an output rating lower than my PB105 but it still cranks out all the heat I'll ever need. It's rated at 54,000 BTU/hr which, with 8250 BTU/lb pellets, would be about 4 bags per day when it's operating at 100%. They make several different sizes if you somehow need more than that - but very few houses should.

I think my favorite feature is the self cleaning. The heat exchanger has some metal scrapers that occasionally cycle up and down to automatically clean the surfaces off and it has a little air compressor attached to 4 tubes on the front of the burn pot that cleans it off when it shuts down. After getting the compressor installed, I've never had to clean the burn pot again. I really like that. I've attached a little picture of the burn pot. This is after burning over a ton of pellets without me touching the burn pot in any way. There's also a picture of the installation. Also, it's online and can be seen at stokercloud.dk/dev/217.html but it's turned off right now so there's not much to see.

Overall, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of these if I was looking for a boiler for my house. If I was planning to use it for DHW too (which I already do with my PB105) I would definitely prefer one of these Kedels because it has the ability to scale down to heat domestic hot water and remain efficient.


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## sinnian (May 3, 2013)

Scott how many bags were you burning?  Not all of us have access to a pellet mill   Four bags a day seems like an awful lot pellets.  I burn at worst during the coldest times 2-3 bags with my boiler.  Like the features of the Kedel though ~ too  bad reVision are a bunch of backstabbers.


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## heaterman (May 4, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> how much btu boiler does one need? How would you figure that our


 

Start with your heat loss. Marc has a pretty decent set of guidelines listed in his post as far as btu/sq ft goes.

The thing I would really like to stress if you are buying a pellet boiler is to look for one that is able to turn the firing rate up/down automatically to match the load in the building.  The issue with heat loss is that it's always changing so your boiler should be able to change its output along with it. This is going to be far more efficient than a single output boiler even thought they may both be rated at 85% at full fire for example. The less start and stop cycles the better.


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## ScotL (May 6, 2013)

sinnian said:


> Scott how many bags were you burning? Not all of us have access to a pellet mill  Four bags a day seems like an awful lot pellets. I burn at worst during the coldest times 2-3 bags with my boiler. Like the features of the Kedel though ~ too bad reVision are a bunch of backstabbers.


 
When it was cold out I burnt 2 bags a day at the most.
What I meant was, even though the rating of 54k BTU is lower than my Harman, that 54k BTU would be 4 bags of pellets per day at it's maximum heat output. So I'm not close to utilizing it's full capacity.


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## Chris04626 (May 10, 2013)

What is the price difference in a Kedel to the Harman?


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## ScotL (May 14, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> What is the price difference in a Kedel to the Harman?


I'm not sure what the current pricing is. The only way to tell for sure would be to contact Revision Heat and a Harman dealer.


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## sinnian (May 18, 2013)

Chris04626 said:


> What is the price difference in a Kedel to the Harman?


 
Not worth getting your toe wet with a Harman, if you're going to do it ~ jump right in 

Wish the Kedel was around back in 2008, I wouldn't have hesitated one bit.

http://kedelboilers.com/meet-kedel/our-pellet-boiler/


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