# Oh, no - maybe a few less SUV's?????



## webbie (Nov 1, 2007)

"Automakers have said the California approach would raise the cost of cars and require manufacturers to reduce their offering of SUVs and pickups."

The auto industry is lobbying big time against Ca. proposed regulations to cut auto emissions by about 25%. Many states, including ours, want to adopt these regs. But rather than be held to the "best available standard and technology" as other industries are, the car makers want a break so they can sell more profitable SUVs and large models.

From:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/071101/auto_emissions.html?.v=1

Hmmm, wonder which way Bush is inclined to go on this?


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## jjbaer (Nov 8, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> "Automakers have said the California approach would raise the cost of cars and require manufacturers to reduce their offering of SUVs and pickups."
> 
> The auto industry is lobbying big time against Ca. proposed regulations to cut auto emissions by about 25%. Many states, including ours, want to adopt these regs. But rather than be held to the "best available standard and technology" as other industries are, the car makers want a break so they can sell more profitable SUVs and large models.
> 
> ...



I read the article and I count a total of 14 states that would go this way if CA wins (13 other states + CA = 14 states). Sounds to me as though if it passes, the auto makers are better off making 100% of their cars meet the CA emission specs. This way, everyone wins (all 50 states get cleaner air and the auto makers only have to make and inventory one level of emission system).........so, I don't see all the fuss. Also, the Fed Gov has imposed weak standards on the auto makers for the last 15 years so it's good to see the states finally taking charge........same thing happened with welfare reform....it was started I think by Tommy Thompson in Wisconsin and then other states asked for the same waiver and finally more states jumped in as did the Federal Government.  The push for change always seems to have to come from the grass-roots level.......the Feds just are NOT ever going to do anything to make things better.  Don't beleive me...then look at immigration where again, the outcry and push for change came from the grass roots level.....


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## Sandor (Nov 9, 2007)

This SUV or Truck issue will simply take care of itself. Ford and GM will go belly up and its a done deal.

I have no clue how GM can lose the amount of money in one quarter that is double its market cap.

How do you spell INSOLVENT?


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## JohnnyBravo (Nov 9, 2007)

funk yeah! its been a long time coming.


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## ilmbg (Dec 5, 2008)

Sorry if I step on some toes-  but...I believe the Big 3 automakers are getting their just reward.  I was married to an auto worker at one time.  We had many friends who worked for one or the other auto company.  I am ashamed to say, that there were many of these people who bragged about going to work and sleeping all the shift- sometimes in the 'smokeatacks', in bosses office's, anywhere.  They would brag about doing drugs on the job because it was such boring work.  They bragged about going out at lunch/dinner and getting drunk- then not coming back to finish their shift- with nobody knowing about it- and of course getting paid a great salary while doing this!
This is the kind of worker the Big 3 has- and I don't mean just a few- they brag that nobody can do anything to them because of the Union.  I knew several that would drink beer, then put the beer cans into the interiors of the car as it was being made.
I am not making this up!  I was married to one of them, so I know firsthand.  It is sick- pay these lazy, drunk, druggies, while our teachers are getting paid $35,00/year to try to teach the autoworkers kids. (the kids had moms and dads that were drunk/high much of the time, and now little Johnny/Susie can't learn due to learning disabilities).  Registered Nurses in the hospitals around Detroit work all hours, all weekends, all Holidays to save people in Emergency Rooms, or Open Heart surgery, and get paid $20-25/hour, while the drunk autoworker gets $72 an hour!  Is it any question why they are sinking?  I hope they don't get bailed out by you and me...we are the ones who will pay- we will be taxed more, to save these lazy Americans?  I hope not.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 5, 2008)

Why is this thread here?

The kalifornia approach.  Yeah right.
Wait til they suck all the water out of the Great Lakes.


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## Danno77 (Dec 5, 2008)

ilmbg said:
			
		

> Sorry if I step on some toes-  but...I believe the Big 3 automakers are getting their just reward.  I was married to an auto worker at one time.  We had many friends who worked for one or the other auto company.  I am ashamed to say, that there were many of these people who bragged about going to work and sleeping all the shift- sometimes in the 'smokeatacks', in bosses office's, anywhere.  They would brag about doing drugs on the job because it was such boring work.  They bragged about going out at lunch/dinner and getting drunk- then not coming back to finish their shift- with nobody knowing about it- and of course getting paid a great salary while doing this!
> This is the kind of worker the Big 3 has- and I don't mean just a few- they brag that nobody can do anything to them because of the Union.  I knew several that would drink beer, then put the beer cans into the interiors of the car as it was being made.
> I am not making this up!  I was married to one of them, so I know firsthand.  It is sick- pay these lazy, drunk, druggies, while our teachers are getting paid $35,00/year to try to teach the autoworkers kids. (the kids had moms and dads that were drunk/high much of the time, and now little Johnny/Susie can't learn due to learning disabilities).  Registered Nurses in the hospitals around Detroit work all hours, all weekends, all Holidays to save people in Emergency Rooms, or Open Heart surgery, and get paid $20-25/hour, while the drunk autoworker gets $72 an hour!  Is it any question why they are sinking?  I hope they don't get bailed out by you and me...we are the ones who will pay- we will be taxed more, to save these lazy Americans?  I hope not.


ilmbg, I respectfully wish to suggest that if you have stepped on some toes, then they are blind to reality. I worked in an auto plant for some time while in college. I worked with highly qualified individuals. NOT highly qualified by auto standards (well, maybe, but not originally trained as such) these people I worked with had MBAs, medical training, and Bachelors in many many things. They all left their original trades because they could make MUCH MUCH MORE in a the Ford Stamping Plant in Chicago Heights, IL. I respectfully submit the following as one piece of factual evidence that Union workers have unjustly sucked the profits from these automakers to the point that they are now belly up. 

I worked on many welders and presses. ALL of which had multiple safety measures to ensure the safety of the worker. There were machines that required you to hold a button with your left hand, and another with your right hand, and then press an actuator switch with your foot. The reason for the complex methods? Safety. They found that too many workers were pressing the button with one hand while throwing a part in with their other hand and crunch, bye-bye hand.

I would like to suggest that if you need three buttons to provide you safety for something like this, then you do not have the level of training, expertise, or general smarts to earn 40+ dollars per hour.

Back during one point of my employment I was considered temp work so I earned half of what a starting Ford employee earned. At that time my hourly was about $15. That was in 1999 or so. Now that I have my masters degree and 30+ extra hours of graduate school I now earn just over 30 dollars an hour (including benefits). Granted, I have leisures that i wouldn't have if I was hourly and worked a factory schedule. I get holidays and never work weekends or weird nightly shifts.

Oh and they all whined and cried when another robot was invented to do their job. Get rid of 10 workers and replace with one to fix the robot (he, of course, would make the same as one of the original workers.) Or when a plant in america would close down and one in mexico would open up. Based on what the average mexican citizen makes our plants pay wayy more than they should down there. Good for them for doing so. it improves the standard of life for many grateful hardworking people AND they are saving millions on having to pay the greedy union workers.

I could go on and on, you get the point. Bottom line is this: pay should be directly related to several things, this is my basic list of such things, although there are likely many other things, like reliability, efficiency, etc etc.

1. Training and education to complete the job
2. Availability of people who have #1
3. Demand for the services/products produced by the employer

As a general stereotype, the average auto worker has nothing above going for them. If UAWs weren't so vicious and lifethreatening, then replacing them all with non-unionized workers would be easy. If you don't know what I'm talking about then you've never tried to cross the picket line. 

I was accosted by several workers and a floor supervisor  (all on separate occasions) because I drove a nissan altima. My supervisor advised me to park a mile or two away and walk into work when someone complained. Apparently the complainer was a man that I had insulted because he said to buy a real car, not a rice burner, and I told him that his Mazda smelled of burritos and salsa. When he didn't understand the insult his supervisor had to explain that his Ford Ranger was not actually American made and was a product of Mexican workers who built mazdas and fords. The man did not enjoy the insult (and I think was mad that he didn't know he owned a foreign built vehicle) so he asked me if I knew what ambulances the local hospital used. I said I didn't know and he said that they were fords and he could make sure I found out the hard way. Nice, a real scholar.

ok, ramble over, you get the idea.


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## JustWood (Dec 5, 2008)

A frind of mine that turns wrenches at a GM dealer just the other day was complaining ( shoulders hurt from being in a difficult position for a long time) about how long it took to diagnose a problem on an almost new  pickup.  Traced the problem back to some wiring in the dash and found a piece of duct tape with  "took you long enough" wrote on it. I asked him if this happens often on new vehicles and he said probably at least half a dozen times a year. Quite pathetic if you ask me. Wouldn't hurt my feelings to see the 3 to go belly up. The  last new  03 pickup I bought is a total POS.


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## d.n.f. (Dec 5, 2008)

The new F150 is supposedly very very good.  
However I drive a Tacoma.
I would look at one if I was in the market.


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## webbie (Dec 5, 2008)

ilmbg said:
			
		

> Sorry if I step on some toes-  but...I believe the Big 3 automakers are getting their just reward.  I was married to an auto worker at one time.  We had many friends who worked for one or the other auto company.  I am ashamed to say, that there were many of these people who bragged about going to work and sleeping all the shift. They bragged about going out at lunch/dinner and getting drunk- then not coming back to finish their shift- with nobody knowing about it- and of course getting paid a great salary while doing this!
> This is the kind of worker the Big 3 has- and I don't mean just a few- they brag that nobody can do anything to them because of the Union.  I knew several that would drink beer, then put the beer cans into the interiors of the car as it was being made.



All true, for sure!
Anyone who wants a first hand account of it should read the book Rivethead - well written by an American Assembly line worker. 
http://www.amazon.com/Rivethead-Tales-Assembly-Ben-Hamper/dp/0446394009

But I really doubt it is that way today. And, it is not really all the workers fault. The places were dirty, dangerous and boring. For some reason, the same American workers end up making great stuff when they get a job at the Honda plant in Ohio. 

Frankly, a job like that described in Rivethead is the earthly equiv. of Hell.


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## fossil (Dec 8, 2008)

Sandor said:
			
		

> ...I have no clue how GM can lose the amount of money in one quarter that is double its market cap.  How do you spell INSOLVENT?



Checked out the numbers on our national debt, budget, trade deficit, and cash flow lately?  One of these days INSOLVENT will be spelled USA.  Rick


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## webby3650 (Dec 8, 2008)

I have always been a Chevy man or Gm anyways, OK maybe some fords. After having 3 cars that were total pieces of crap, all being almost new I lost faith! We bought a Buick Rendezvous, I thought Buick's were good, WRONG not this one! At 42,000 miles the transmission and the intake gasket went out That sucks. We bought a Toyota Sequoia and haven't had one problem! Not even a damp gasket anywhere!Now that is Quality in my mind.


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## rowerwet (Dec 8, 2008)

When the green nazis outlaw large suvs, trucks, and vans what will all of the contractors and tradesman drive? ... even bigger desiel trucks so then how much cleaner will the air realy be?
I would give the unions a lot of the blame for the current "big three" problems, but just as much blame to the government. Every time a new regulation comes from washinton they have to redesign to meet it. An engine design  should be good for 15 years or so but with the ever increasing milage/emissions mandates they have to give up on the design and start over (very expensive). Now if the states get involved they will never be able to get a real return on their investment in r&d;as the politicians won't be happy until we all drive bicycles. Congress passed a new law last year(?) that will put trucks and vans into the cafe standards program (notice toymotor etc. don't make a full size truck or van) and they want car epa milage to go up to I think 35 mpg (don't remember the final  number). How are they gona do that with anything that will fit a family of 5 or 6? And in a few years every car has to have a vehicle stability system, more money, weight, and electronics to fail (KISS). 
I thought this was a free country, why don't we let the people decide what we want?


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## ilmbg (Dec 9, 2008)

Lees wood co- I hope that the owner or mechanic will contact the manufacturer- yep this is the way Big 3 workers 'work'.
Webmaster- I bet that book is something like 'The Cannery' (I think that was the name), a book that we had to read in High School regarding what was in our canned food..... It does sound like a good read though- maybe a few copies should be sent to the guys who are considering giving them a 'loan'.


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## offroadaudio (Dec 10, 2008)

rowerwet said:
			
		

> When the green nazis outlaw large suvs, trucks, and vans what will all of the contractors and tradesman drive? ... even bigger desiel trucks so then how much cleaner will the air realy be?
> I would give the unions a lot of the blame for the current "big three" problems, but just as much blame to the government. Every time a new regulation comes from washinton they have to redesign to meet it. An engine design  should be good for 15 years or so but with the ever increasing milage/emissions mandates they have to give up on the design and start over (very expensive). Now if the states get involved they will never be able to get a real return on their investment in r&d;as the politicians won't be happy until we all drive bicycles. Congress passed a new law last year(?) that will put trucks and vans into the cafe standards program (notice toymotor etc. don't make a full size truck or van) and they want car epa milage to go up to I think 35 mpg (don't remember the final  number). How are they gona do that with anything that will fit a family of 5 or 6? And in a few years every car has to have a vehicle stability system, more money, weight, and electronics to fail (KISS).
> I thought this was a free country, why don't we let the people decide what we want?



Amen brother - When the septic tanks of the politicians are overflowing - how's the backhoe gonna get there? Ahh hell, let them swim in there own sh1t!
And us breeders are not supposed to have families that big - humans are evil and bad for the planet.

Honda Pilot for the wife and a 2500HD for me - both 4 x 4 - My wife and kids are safer in something big and heavy and I can get some work done.
Of course the mileage on the big diesel has been sucking lately thanks to the greenies and their corny fuel - I went from 18MPG to about 12.
Way to go EPA - keep them regs coming!


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## leaddog (Dec 11, 2008)

sorry guys but I retired from gm and I don't see things quite the way you all do. One of the things that are compared to the toyotas and hondas that is they can produce there cars so much cheaper. Well for one thing THEY don't have any retirement costs as they haven't been around long enough and they have a way of getting rid of the older workers. There healthcare costs are alot less for the same reason. Now when the big three goes down I don't want to here alot of bitchin about health care costs going up since the bigthree is the largest private contributor to the healthcare system and when we quite subsidysing the system the costs are going up. Somebody is going to have to PAY for everyone that don't have insurance. there is no free lunch. Granted the big three paid well but that helped everyone else to get more money and helped people buy more cars and stuff which in turn created more jobs and helped everyone. Sure the toyota's and hondas assemble cars here but the money goes back over seas and you don't see them paying taxes. I sure hope you all want to take a pay cut from YOUR job cause I KNOW there is a lot of workers are out there that will work for alot less than YOU WILL. OH and by the way even the farmers here are having trouble finding workers willing to pick asparagas in the spring and are disking it under maybe when you all cut your pay you can come and help them out. and work all day for $7 an hour.
I'm not saying the bigthree has done every thing right, far from it , but if the money people wouldn't have messed up the credit and housing by giving money out to people that couldn't aford it we wouldn't be in this mess.
But I think the answer is to have the GOV run the auto business. They will have it lean and mean in no time as they are GREAT at running things. Maybe have some of the bankers help. They will sell the cars to everyone on a interest only payment and then sell that note to some people that want to invest in a great new mutual fund and make huge profits. The value of the car will keep going up and might even get sold 4 or 5 times before any one even drives it, and every time it gets sold every one makes a profit. Ya I think I have the answer here I'll get ahold of my congressman, or maybe better I'll see if I can BUY a senate seat with my profits.
leaddog


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