# Pacific Energy Pacific Insert Cracks



## Lumberjack (Oct 14, 2012)

Hi all,

5 years ago you all helped me to refurbish my chimney and choose and install an insert style wood stove for my first home.  Thanks a ton!

Fast forward to today.  I performed my annual chimney cleaning (only a handful of soot!).  All looked good on the outside of the house.  My baffle had a slight crack last year (in the portion that you can see without removing it).  I used it all last year with no issues.  The crack has gotten worse and I am going to try to get PE to fix / replace it...we will see.  I figured if they say no, that I would weld it up at work even though it is a little warped.  I figured I would look up how much a new one costs, didn't find anything.  What I did find was a bunch of PE Pacific owners with cracked fire boxes.  That got me worried.  My stove was mfg'd in late 2006, same as most of the cracked stoves. 

I inspected the stove this evening and found cracks in the upper 2 welds on either side of the door.  Both welds are cracked on the inside and the hinge side weld is cracked through to the exterior of the stove, about 0.50" long at this point.  I think I need to thoroughly clean and inspect the stove to look for more cracks.  Where else have other people seen cracks in this stove, where else should I look?  Do I need to pull the stove out? 

I plan on contacting my dealer tomorrow to discuss the situation.  Unfortunately, I suspect this process is going to take weeks or months to resolve.  I usually start burning by 11/1.  My biggest concern is the crack from the outside to inside.  When is it unsafe to use the stove?  I usually burn the stove between 500 and 700F as measured on the exterior of the door frame with a stick on thermometer.  I feels this is well within the reasonable working range for this stove.  

I would love to hear how others made out with PE.  I hate to think that a $2000 stove only lasted 5 years......


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## Lumberjack (Oct 27, 2012)

Bump.

I have photographed the cracking in my 2007 PE pacific and contacted my dealer. PE offered an "allowance" of $200 to re-weld my stove. The crack which concerns me the most is the one shown in the picture. It is from outside to inside, which equals air leaks. Thoughts?

My dealer thinks I have over fired the stove which lead to the cracking, though he is working to help get this resolved. He is recommending that I place the magnetic thermometer on the top of the stove. This doesn't really work as this is an insert.

I don't want to pull this stove, find a welder, weld it, reinstall just to have it crack again. I know this is a touchy subject here but I don't perform a temporary fix just to have to replace / reweld the stove next year.

Should I just buy another stove?

Thanks


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## iceman (Oct 27, 2012)

lol guys we are having those same cracks on the summit inserts!
some are getting stoves replaced and some are not.
search for cracked pe stove there is a lot of info out there,
and some say its only 6 per year.. guess 06-07 was a exception


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## begreen (Oct 27, 2012)

That doesn't look like it's going to affect stove performance. I would test PEs reports that the crack will not spread and will not affect burning. Document this well with good photos and then do the exact same photos at the end of the season. If it gets worse then I would push for replacement. If no change then I would consider the weld or just leave it.


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## Lumberjack (Oct 27, 2012)

thanks for the reply Iceman.  ultimately I just want a safe stove that I can control the burn in.  it is frustrating though that I am going to spend 10's of hours addressing this issue between pulling the stove, calling welders ect. 

does anyone know if there are any good mobile welders in western CT who could quote fixing this?  my dealer wants me to get quotes from a few welders and then take that info back to PE.

Thanks!


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## BrowningBAR (Oct 27, 2012)

This is an unfortunate trend. I would take BeGreen's advice.

I hope it works out for you and you stay warm.


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## Lumberjack (Oct 27, 2012)

begreen said:


> That doesn't look like it's going to affect stove performance. I would test PEs reports that the crack will not spread and will not affect burning. Document this well with good photos and then do the exact same photos at the end of the season. If it gets worse then I would push for replacement. If no change then I would consider the weld or just leave it.


be green

my baffle is cracked as well.  PE is sending a new one, I think it is already in.  apparently you get one free one over the life of the stove.  i found the baffle crack last year, it was less than 1/2" long.  used it all season.  now it  looks like this, see below.  I also have significant internal cracks in the upper portions of the door frame (both sides).  I am not sure how to push for a new stove other than to weld it and then have it fail again, which isn't really the path I want to take.


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## BrowningBAR (Oct 27, 2012)

How are you measuring temps on the stove? And what is your normal operating temperature for the stove?

I ask only out of curiosity.


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## begreen (Oct 27, 2012)

I was about to ask the same question. Measuring temps on inserts is trickier.


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## iceman (Oct 27, 2012)

not sure where you live but you should be able to get a welder to come out.
take lots of pictures and if you have internal cracks replacement is the only way to go.
stay the path because it will be said by some its your fault. clean that stove good and inspect it again with a bright light


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## Lumberjack (Oct 27, 2012)

I have been using a magnetic thermometer placed in the upper left corner of the door.  I usually run the stove to 350 / 400F and then shut the air down, it will climb to 500-600F, hover there for an hour or 2 and then drop down.  Usually reload at 300F.  

I plan on pulling the stove myself tomorrow and getting it on a dolly.  I am going to clean it out and use a wire bush to check out other areas best I can and take some more photos.  If it is going to be welded it can't happen in place.   

Any suggestions on how to inspect the secondary air inlet?

I will admit that on occasion the tips of the two supports that hold the baffle in place had been glowing red, but best I can tell no other area has ever been glowing red.   

Here's a picture of an internal crack.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 27, 2012)




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## Lumberjack (Oct 28, 2012)

Well, bit the bullet and pulled my stove today.  I removed the sheet metal shrouds, blower, door, fire bricks baffle holders, insulation and cleaned it out real good.  Guess what I found?!  Three more cracks!  The two below are facing the back wall of the stove and are much worse than the others in the door frame.

Sent them off to my dealer.  Not sure how these would be welded without some dis assembly of the stove......


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## Todd (Oct 28, 2012)

This is getting ridiculous, PE needs to step up and replace these stoves or offer a major discount on a new one. Welding the cracks is just a bandiad and I wouldn't sleep well not knowing I have cracks or repaired welds on something that's suppose to hold fire.


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## Lumberjack (Oct 28, 2012)

We will see what they say after this hurricane passes! 

I am glad it has been a mild fall in CT so far and I haven't needed to run the stove yet.


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## Grisu (Oct 29, 2012)

Lumberjack said:


> I have been using a magnetic thermometer placed in the upper left corner of the door. I usually run the stove to 350 / 400F and then shut the air down, it will climb to 500-600F, hover there for an hour or 2 and then drop down. Usually reload at 300F.
> 
> I will admit that on occasion the tips of the two supports that hold the baffle in place had been glowing red, but best I can tell no other area has ever been glowing red.


 
I have the PE Super insert and hazard the guess that you are running yours too hot. I use an IR-gun and point it at the center just above the door. That spot is easily 100 to 150 F higher than to either side of the door. It is also about 100 F less than the stove collar which I can also hit with the IR-gun. If yours behaves similar your insert is probably at about 700 to 800 F during those early 1 to 2 hours; could even be higher. In addition, I have never seen the baffle support to glow red. I would try keeping the temp below 500 F.


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## Lumberjack (Oct 29, 2012)

Grisu said:


> I have the PE Super insert and hazard the guess that you are running yours too hot. I use an IR-gun and point it at the center just above the door. That spot is easily 100 to 150 F higher than to either side of the door. It is also about 100 F less than the stove collar which I can also hit with the IR-gun. If yours behaves similar your insert is probably at about 700 to 800 F during those early 1 to 2 hours; could even be higher. In addition, I have never seen the baffle support to glow red. I would try keeping the temp below 500 F.


 
It's possible you are correct.  However, at 400 to 500F, the secondary burn is just barely starting.  I don't currently own an IR gun and therefore can not tell you what my collar temp was during burning. Honestly I have always felt the stove doesn't produce any "real" heat until it is above 500F as measured in my location.  I agree that above 600-650F things did seem a little sketchy.  But up to that point I felt good. 

Whatever the outcome, I am not going to run the insert without using a thermometer in a manufacture recommended location.  Also, I am going to check the calibration of the thermometer prior to use as other members have pointed out they have had them off by as much as 200F which is a big deal in my book. 

My dealer has a free standing PE on the showroom floor and I am thinking it might be a good reference stove as it is a similar size. 

I want to point out that my intention of this thread is to try to continue open discussion about this issue even if it is like beating a dead horse for some.  It is a new challenge for me and I appreciate your feedback as everyone's issues are slightly different.  Based on reading other threads I understand this is a touchy subject.  I have been running wood stoves for a better part of my life but realize that each one is a unique animal that deserves respect.  I do not want to create a negative environment on this forum or point fingers.  Ultimately my goal is to get either this stove or another reinstalled and running before things freeze up for the winter.  Also I hope to learn something from this experience and not repeat the same mistakes going forward.


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## begreen (Oct 29, 2012)

FWIW, PE reports that this issue does not exist in the current generation of stoves. Ultimately, regardless of what stove you get, be sure to get a stove top thermometer and keep the working temps reasonable.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Oct 29, 2012)

Like mentioned here many times getting temps on an insert is tricky cause of the location. You may use an infrared on the front and on the top but the side may be the hottest! My insert by Buckstoves is a box with in a box so temps on the top are not so accurate because of the air channel. So I shot the front and found the upper left corner was the hottest because the infrared gun would go to 3 dashes.

As for the thermometers I calibrated by the one thing we know to be a law of chemistry/physics is that water boils at 212F. I got the water just to rolling boil and dipped, not let it sit, but dipped it in until I seen where it settled. One was off by 75 to 100and the other was of 50 to 75. I will do again this year but I am pretty familiar with how the stove runs now. But the wife is not!


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## Lumberjack (Oct 29, 2012)

Just checked my magnetic thermometer.  With water at a rolling boil I was right at 100 C.  Would  like to check it at say 400F which I can do with the oven next time we bake something.


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## Highbeam (Oct 29, 2012)

Those methods do not test the meter's calibration. Your thermometer was designed to measure surface temperatures, not liquid or air temperatures. You should not depend on any method for calibration other than placing the meter on a surface of known temperature and comparing the reading.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Oct 29, 2012)

Crap, I hope your wrong....I have been lying to myself for 2 years! 
I made a call to my neighbor and he is bringing home his Fluke Infrared and I will check to see if I'm right.


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## Highbeam (Oct 29, 2012)

Kinda silly to measure oven temps with a surface meter. You don't try and shove it up your hiney to measure your body temperature do you?

Just kidding, seriously, a joke.


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Oct 29, 2012)

I was pretty much right on.  The Rutland is off 75 to 100 and the UGL Temproof is off only by 25-35 degrees. I got confused because I have actually 4 thermos, 3 Rutland and one UGL. Two of the Rutlands are on my moms 30nc. I do recall no that the UGL was quite accurate. So in my experiment the boiling method works. I tried to get pix with the iPhone but.....I'll get pix!


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Oct 29, 2012)

Here they are:


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## Highbeam (Oct 29, 2012)

Are you using the IR gun to measure the temp of the stove or of face of the meter?


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Oct 29, 2012)

Looks like the meter face but it is just below it. It was a major pain to get that close and get the pix! The gun read differently when only .5" away. I even noted the temp of the thermo, moved it then used the gun to get underneath.

I did it again and what you are seeing is the laser reflection on the thermo.


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## Sisu (Oct 30, 2012)

Sorry to hear about the insert.  My Pacific faced similar cracks and welding did not solve the problem.  I would try to seek replacement at the end of the burn season. 

If it is overfiring, PE should give advice/instructions on how to avoid this.  In my experience, there seemed to be a lack of control with the insert.  This possibly has to do with meeting the EPA requirements.  

However, if the dealer or PE states that your insert has been overfired, they should investigate the source of the issue.  If it is a drafting issue, etc., they should recommend solutions to resolve it.  Repairing the welds won't fix the stove, if other issues are causing the insert to overfire.


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## firefighterjake (Oct 30, 2012)

Highbeam said:


> Kinda silly to measure oven temps with a surface meter. You don't try and shove it up your hiney to measure your body temperature do you?
> 
> Just kidding, seriously, a joke.


 
D'oh . . . now you tell me!


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## Lumberjack (Oct 31, 2012)

Sisu said:


> Sorry to hear about the insert. My Pacific faced similar cracks and welding did not solve the problem. I would try to seek replacement at the end of the burn season.
> 
> If it is overfiring, PE should give advice/instructions on how to avoid this. In my experience, there seemed to be a lack of control with the insert. This possibly has to do with meeting the EPA requirements.
> 
> However, if the dealer or PE states that your insert has been overfired, they should investigate the source of the issue. If it is a drafting issue, etc., they should recommend solutions to resolve it. Repairing the welds won't fix the stove, if other issues are causing the insert to overfire.


 
I am trying to get quotes to weld the stove.  Made some calls today, no quotes yet.  I don't want to have to drive the stove all over to have people quote it.  When I pulled it, it appears that the primary air inlet is near the front of the stove (approx 3" hole) which can't be fully closed off.  Also, there is a 5/8" hole or so near the lower left which is always open.  Anyone bend the tab to allow you to close the primary air inlet on stove down more?  I would agree that there is some lack of control once things get going though I never really felt out of control.  Is there another secondary inlet on the rear bottom portion of the stove?  I couldn't really tell.


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## Sisu (Nov 1, 2012)

That seems weird that you are the one who has to pull the insert and get the quotes.  The insert is not exactly portable; nor is your gas and time included in the repair costs.  Did you purchase the stove from a stove dealer? 

I am not sure of the internal workings of the primary or secondary inlets.  I do have that 5/8" hole that is  under the boost manifold.


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## begreen (Nov 1, 2012)

Lumberjack said:


> When I pulled it, it appears that the primary air inlet is near the front of the stove (approx 3" hole) which can't be fully closed off.
> *This is the primary air.*
> 
> Also, there is a 5/8" hole or so near the lower left which is always open.
> ...


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## Lumberjack (Nov 2, 2012)

Sisu, yes I bought through a local dealer.  I could push it all on them but in the interest of getting this resolved ASAP, I guess I am driving the ship.

Begreen, the hole near the front is under a removable steel pan on the bottom front of the stove.  With the lever in the "light" position, the hole is partially covered and then remains fully exposed as the air control lever is moved to the right.  I will see if I can remember to get a picture tonight for clarification.

Is the secondary covered up with an "L" shaped piece of steel which moves with the primary air lever?


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## Lumberjack (Nov 2, 2012)

Begreen, one other thing, I don't think the Pacific model has the EBT, i think that is only the Summit.  Could be wrong.


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## ozzy73 (Nov 2, 2012)

I am curious, is this specific to inserts ? or is common in any other PE stove ?


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## Lumberjack (Nov 4, 2012)

Not sure but I have mostly read about inserts only


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## Hogwildz (Nov 4, 2012)

Only the Summit and T6 have EBT as far as I know.


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## begreen (Nov 4, 2012)

That's correct. The EBT is only on the 3 cu ft stoves and inserts.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 4, 2012)

well, tried contacting PE directly on Friday.  Everyone who could help me out was out of the office (of course).  So far one welder stated that is isn't worth welding as he believes the material is defective and that welding won't solve the problem.  Haven't heard from any others due to the storm I suspect.  My dealer is starting to believe that PE should replace the stove. 

In the mean time, I am trying to come us with a contingency plan as it is down in the low 30's here and oil is too expensive.  I went to HD today to check out the Englander 30NC.  It looks like a good deal but is slightly too large for me to put on the hearth and then pipe up through the fireplace.  Can the Englander legs be cut down to lower the stove?  My hearth is concrete, brick, stove.  Also, what are my options for free standing stove that exit out of the back rather than the top? 

I looked at the Englander insert but it is more $ than I want to spend if I have to replace this stove out of my pocket. The free standing 13 is too small and too tall. 

thanks in advance


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## begreen (Nov 4, 2012)

Use the stove. According to PE the cracks will not affect performance. Might as well stay warm and put that to the test.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 5, 2012)

begreen said:


> Use the stove. According to PE the cracks will not affect performance. Might as well stay warm and put that to the test.


The issue is that it is currently uninstalled.  I don't want to put it back in just to pull it again if I actually weld this thing up.  Worst worst case I could go pick up the new baffle that PE sent and reinstall the whole thing and run it as you suggested.  I would have to wait until next season to install a new one or repair this one. 

Lesson learned here: inspect / clean in June, not October!


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## RAY_PA (Nov 5, 2012)

Lumberjack said:


> The issue is that it is currently uninstalled. I don't want to put it back in just to pull it again if I actually weld this thing up. Worst worst case I could go pick up the new baffle that PE sent and reinstall the whole thing and run it as you suggested. I would have to wait until next season to install a new one or repair this one.
> 
> Lesson learned here: inspect / clean in June, not October!


 
I am in the exact same situation, with my Summit, however, I didnt pull it out, it was all I could do to install it myself, so I dont want to have to pull it unless I absolutly have to. So far, I cant even get a welder to come look at it, after I tell them I have $200 to spend.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 5, 2012)

RAY_PA said:


> I am in the exact same situation, with my Summit, however, I didnt pull it out, it was all I could do to install it myself, so I dont want to have to pull it unless I absolutly have to. So far, I cant even get a welder to come look at it, after I tell them I have $200 to spend.


 
It takes 2 guys to pull the Pacific as well. I can only image with the Summit.

Just tell them you want them to quote the job and determine if it is feasible. Don't tell them how much you have. PE might provide you with more $ depending on how your quotes come back.

Check the inside of the door frame with a mirror, I was surprised what I found. That was the worst of the cracks.[/quote]


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## tcassavaugh (Nov 5, 2012)

have these problems manifested themselves in the free standing ones or have they been pretty much confined to the inserts?

cass


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## begreen (Nov 5, 2012)

So far we only have reports from a selection of inserts built  around '05-'09 I think.


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## tcassavaugh (Nov 5, 2012)

cool...thank you sir, that means my summit bought a couple of years ago should be ok then. course i hardley burned it last year because it was so warm, i used my little upstairs jotul instead.

cass


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## begreen (Nov 5, 2012)

We're warm here this fall so I have only done a few fires. It was 64F yesterday, 54 right now. Our T6 still looks as good as the day it was born. That is except for the ashen look inside.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 6, 2012)

UPDATE!

Well, got the good news today that PE is going to replace my firebox!  Hopefully it is in on Friday.  Guess what I am doing this weekend!


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## rideau (Nov 6, 2012)

Lumberjack said:


> UPDATE!
> 
> Well, got the good news today that PE is going to replace my firebox! Hopefully it is in on Friday. Guess what I am doing this weekend!


 
Great news.  Glad for you.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 6, 2012)

I will post some pics once it is re installed.  I think the new pacific is different than the one I have.


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## certified106 (Nov 6, 2012)

Awesome to hear!


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## Sisu (Nov 7, 2012)

Great news!  I am happy to hear that PE has come through!!


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## bag of hammers (Nov 7, 2012)

begreen said:


> We're warm here this fall so I have only done a few fires. It was 64F yesterday, 54 right now. Our T6 still looks as good as the day it was born. That is except for the ashen look inside.


Even though I don't own a PE stove, this is good to know.  How old is your T6?  PE was in my top 3 picks originally.  I really loved the look and the reputation of their stoves at that time.


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## bag of hammers (Nov 7, 2012)

Lumberjack said:


> UPDATE!
> 
> Well, got the good news today that PE is going to replace my firebox! Hopefully it is in on Friday. Guess what I am doing this weekend!


Excellent.  I bet that first fire in the new unit is going to feel good....


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## begreen (Nov 7, 2012)

bag of hammers said:


> Even though I don't own a PE stove, this is good to know. How old is your T6? PE was in my top 3 picks originally. I really loved the look and the reputation of their stoves at that time.


 
It's going on season 4.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 10, 2012)

UPDATE: picked up my replacement stove Friday night!  They sent me the new model, the PE Super Insert as they no longer make the Pacific.  Everything is new with the exception of the door and the surround.  Those 2 parts I am reusing from my previous stove.  All I had to pay was freight, which I felt was very reasonable.  PE wanted my old stove back, hopefully for inspection.  I would love to see the inspection report they write up.  I installed a new door gasket and cleaned up the surround.  Pics to follow....  The Super is definetly a nicer stove than the Pacific was.  The cast iron ash lip is larger, the top edge is now cast instead of plate steel.  It has 2 small blowers over just one large one.  Assembly / disassembly is easier and from what I have read PE believes this is a very tough stove, build for many years of service. 

So the *BIG* question that PE can't answer is: what temp can I burn to and where to put the thermometer?  My dealer has recommended that I place it on the top, just behind the cast iron top and that I run 400-600F with 700F being the max.  I am starting with that advice but am open to others input.  I used to run it just over the top left corner of the door with the same temp ranges in mind  He suggested that didn't do a good job of representing where the stove was actually running.  I am thinking I am going to run 2 for a while and compare. 

I have a break in fire going as I type this.  Running around 350F with 4 splits or so.  I plan on repeating the same thing tomorrow night.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 10, 2012)

And the pictures:



Clean, new firebox!



Installed.



First fire.


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## Grisu (Nov 11, 2012)

Congratulations! As a satisfied owner of a Super insert I am pretty sure you will love yours, too. I would recommend getting an IR gun. The hottest accessible place I found was in the center just above the door and below the top edge. However, I don't think you will be able to fit a thermometer there. With the IR gun I can also hit the flue collar through the blower opening and find that about 50 F warmer than the spot over the door. Thus, I usually run the stove at 550 to 600 F at the door spot which should keep me well under 700 F overall. I can check again but as I remember the top was quite a bit cooler than the spot I am using.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 12, 2012)

Grisu said:


> Congratulations! As a satisfied owner of a Super insert I am pretty sure you will love yours, too. I would recommend getting an IR gun. The hottest accessible place I found was in the center just above the door and below the top edge. However, I don't think you will be able to fit a thermometer there. With the IR gun I can also hit the flue collar through the blower opening and find that about 50 F warmer than the spot over the door. Thus, I usually run the stove at 550 to 600 F at the door spot which should keep me well under 700 F overall. I can check again but as I remember the top was quite a bit cooler than the spot I am using.


 
If you wouldn't mind, can you check top verses front of door?  Also, what's the temp in the upper left corner of the door verses the center of the door?  Any suggestions on an IR gun?  I was just going to get another mag thermometer.  My biggest concern is that air from the blowers cools the thermometer, giving an inaccurate reading.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 12, 2012)

Also, any recommendations on break in?  I found nothing in the manual.  I have done 2, 5hr burn not exceeding 400F on the top.  I would like to do a hotter burn once the temps outside fall into the 30's again.


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## begreen (Nov 12, 2012)

It would be interesting to see the differences in the areas where you noted the cracks. Can you post some shots of those same areas on the new stove?


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## Grisu (Nov 12, 2012)

Lumberjack said:


> If you wouldn't mind, can you check top verses front of door? Also, what's the temp in the upper left corner of the door verses the center of the door? Any suggestions on an IR gun? I was just going to get another mag thermometer. My biggest concern is that air from the blowers cools the thermometer, giving an inaccurate reading.


 
Yep, I was thinking of checking it again when I did the post but we left our insert get cold as we hit the upper sixties yesterday and today. I think the difference between the top and the door spot was about 150 F but once we have it running again I will check to make sure.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 13, 2012)

I would believe that.  I have the stove top at 400F currently and judging by the way its running would say its about how it would run when the door frame was at 500F or so.....I think I am going to buy an infrared gun.  They are less than $50 on amazon.


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## Grisu (Nov 13, 2012)

I took some measurements today. The stove has been running with the air fully closed and nice secondaries for ~30 min with the blower off. The IR gun readings:
Above the door: center: 590 F            left and right corner (but not on the blower cover yet!): 465-470 F 
Top; just before the surround: center: 420 F       left and right side: 230-240 F
Flue collar, "lasered" through the blower opening: ~600 F 
I started closing the air when the door center spot hit 350 F and had it almost fully closed at 500 F.

I use the IR gun from Harbor Freight which seems to work well enough. Usually it is $40 but often on sale for $30 and sometimes even for $20. I think for many inserts it is the only way to get some reliable readings. The manufacturers should really put a recommendation in their manual where to place the thermometer and what temps not to exceed. Just simply saying "not to overfire it" is not enough IMO.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 13, 2012)

I think temp measurements with an insert is an impossible dream. My 30-NC in the fireplace can be kicking at 650 to 700 and shortly after I turn the blower on at half speed the stove top thermo reading drops a couple of hundred degrees. Same for the infrared thermo. Ya just gotta do it with how the fire looks and if you are smoking up the 'hood. Fine to test how the burn looks and measure temps without the blower. But when that blower is turned on, all bets are off.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 13, 2012)

Grisu said:


> I took some measurements today. The stove has been running with the air fully closed and nice secondaries for ~30 min with the blower off. The IR gun readings:
> Above the door: center: 590 F left and right corner (but not on the blower cover yet!): 465-470 F
> Top; just before the surround: center: 420 F left and right side: 230-240 F
> Flue collar, "lasered" through the blower opening: ~600 F
> ...


 

I TOTALLY agree with the need to define over firing and where to place a thermometer.  My dealer said the same thing as well and is working on PE to get a location / a number.  Will update if I hear anything.  I get that the exterior shouldn't glow, but by the time that happens it is too late. 

So based on your numbers, the face of the stove is approx 1.5X hotter than the top.  I am guessing that with the blower running the top is quite a bit cooler than the face.  

I think I might run to HF and pick up an IR tomorrow.  It went from 60 last night to 30 tonight.  I want to be able to run this stove and feel confident that I am not overworking it.  It seems to have alot more control than the Pacific did.  Perhaps they modified the fix of the air control mechanism.....????


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## Lumberjack (Nov 13, 2012)

BrotherBart said:


> I think temp measurements with an insert is an impossible dream. My 30-NC in the fireplace can be kicking at 650 to 700 and shortly after I turn the blower on at half speed the stove top thermo reading drops a couple of hundred degrees. Same for the infrared thermo. Ya just gotta do it with how the fire looks and if you are smoking up the 'hood. Fine to test how the burn looks and measure temps without the blower. But when that blower is turned on, all bets are off.


 
I am starting to think that stove top temps aren't reliable with the blower on.  The face however isn't in the air stream.  It seems to me that this would be a reliable number. 

I did a quick test just now.  If I turn the blower all the way down, the stove top increase 50F within a few minutes.  Turn the blower back on, temp drops rapidly.


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## Dix (Nov 13, 2012)

I'll vouch for when the blower is off. Especially on an insert.

Had to run the PE with no power during Sandy's after math. Glad I bought it, and that it convects the heat with no blower.

But I really had to keep an eye on the temps.I know they are way hotter than the thermo shows (upper right of the door).  Running the 13 was way easier.


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 13, 2012)

Lumberjack said:


> So the *BIG* question that PE can't answer is: what temp can I burn to and where to put the thermometer? My dealer has recommended that I place it on the top, just behind the cast iron top and that I run 400-600F with 700F being the max. I am starting with that advice but am open to others input. I used to run it just over the top left corner of the door with the same temp ranges in mind He suggested that didn't do a good job of representing where the stove was actually running. I am thinking I am going to run 2 for a while and compare.


 
I called up six dealers with the same question a couple of weeks ago and got wildly different answers, including from PE tech support themselves.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 13, 2012)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:


> I'll vouch for when the blower is off. Especially on an insert.
> 
> Had to run the PE with no power during Sandy's after math. Glad I bought it, and that it convects the heat with no blower.
> 
> But I really had to keep an eye on the temps.I know they are way hotter than the thermo shows (upper right of the door). Running the 13 was way easier.


 
Agreed.  I ran my Pacific 24/7 last year when we had no power / heat for 1.5 weeks after a freak snow storm in October.  It threw off lots of heat without the blower but I watched it a lot closer.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 13, 2012)

BrowningBAR said:


> I called up six dealers with the same question a couple of weeks ago and got wildly different answers, including from PE tech support themselves.


what did they say?

I am thinking that if I hit 600F with the blower on I have over fired the stove.  I would like to avoid this with the new insert!


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## Grisu (Nov 13, 2012)

I am glad I bought the IR thermometer. It was actually that I could also check for cold spots around the house but being able to measure the temps on the face of the Super made it totally worthwhile. For what its worth running the blower has little effect on the temp I measure above the door. 20 to 30 F at most. I used to run the stove with the blower on most of the time but now I only do it when I want to get the house warmed up more quickly. The convective air movement around the firebox is really working well. Needless to say, I really love the Super.


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## Sprinter (Nov 13, 2012)

This should give renewed hope to those of us who were starting to question PE's warranty policies.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 13, 2012)

Good to hear that there is good convection around the Super.  The Pacific really needed the blower to move the heat away from it I felt.

The Super is definitely better looking than the Pacific was.  The additional cast iron really does it for me.


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## Lumberjack (Nov 13, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> This should give renewed hope to those of us who were starting to question PE's warranty policies.


I am very pleased with the ultimate outcome of my situation.

I did have to do a bit of leg work to keep things moving, but it worth it.  I credit my dealer who pushed the distributor hard to resolve the situation. 

For me I think pulling the stove and finding additional cracks was really the turning point.


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## iceman (Nov 14, 2012)

i think so too. They still just wanna weld....- reweld my stove. So yes those cracks on the inside def was the diff. I plan on getting a mirror and checking mine. If there are no interior cracks I will reweld. 
I change door gasket every year, and burn like we discuss here so if its overfiring its doing it on its own. lol
I am starting to believe maybe my wood is to dry. So will mix it up this year.


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## iceman (Nov 14, 2012)

lumberjack, where did u get that surround with the holes in it?


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## Lumberjack (Nov 15, 2012)

iceman said:


> lumberjack, where did u get that surround with the holes in it?


Iceman, I reworked the factory "large" surround.  I felt that the stove threw more heat without the surround, but liked the look better with it installed.  So I printed out the hole pattern on paper, center punched all the holes and then drilled them out.  If i did it again I might get more creative with the design.  I can't say that it worked or not, tough to tell but it made me feel better! 

Also, regarding your cracked firebox.  I am guess that you pulled it and took a wire brush to it to look for cracks.  To inspect mine I stood it on its back, that really helped.  That's the only way I found my interior cracks.  I suspect the crack propagated from the inside out as the interior welds were not nearly as well done as the exterior.  Use a good light as well.  I am sure I am preaching to the choir here....

Heck if it wasn't for this forum I would be burning my old one right now, totally unaware of all the cracks, for better or worse.


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## Lumberjack (Jan 17, 2013)

UPDATE

Hi All

It has been 2 months now since I received my new PE Super Insert to replace my failed Pacific Insert.  I have to say that I am really liking this stove!  It seems to be a whole lot more predictable than the Pacific was and has better air control.  I also feel that this stove does a better job of getting the heat into the room than the Pacific did.  It could be the additional cast iron on the stove or it could be the dual blowers instead of the one large blower creating better air circulation around the firebox. 

I think the biggest thing was the purchase of the IR gun.  I found that the face temp can really lag behind the top / collar temp, in the range of 200-300 deg F.  I have also learned things like the blowers will drop the top temp 100F in 5 min or so when you go from 3/4 power to full power on them. 

I have been running it with the collar hitting 650F during startup/reload and then cruising around 500 F stove top temp (with the blowers on).  This seems to be a happy zone for the stove.  I haven't seem any buildup on the inside of the stove or the glass so I am thinking I am in a good place temp wise.     

Anyone else who is running the Super I would love to hear your thoughts on them.


Stay warm!


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## begreen (Jan 17, 2013)

Thanks for the update Lumberjack. I had a suspicion that the door face temps were underestimating the top temp. Good to hear that you have the new insert dialed in and are getting nice results.


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## Sisu (Jan 18, 2013)

Hi Lumberjack!  My Pacific insert was replaced with a Super too and I am getting the same results.  It seems a bit more controllable and has nicer aesthetics with the cast iron.


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## tim1 (Jan 18, 2013)

I rebuilt a old summit free standing stove. No cracks inside, but the baffle was really warped. Just welded it and braced it with stainless rod and works great. If you have that 5/8th hole on bottom for ebt, it is not open all the time, just start up, and end of burn for more air. Rebuilt my ebt mechanism and tested it. Tim


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## certified106 (Jan 18, 2013)

Lumberjack, glad to hear it was made right and you are back to burning in a great stove. I am still thoroughly enjoying my T6


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## Lumberjack (Jan 19, 2013)

tim1 said:


> I rebuilt a old summit free standing stove. No cracks inside, but the baffle was really warped. Just welded it and braced it with stainless rod and works great. If you have that 5/8th hole on bottom for ebt, it is not open all the time, just start up, and end of burn for more air. Rebuilt my ebt mechanism and tested it. Tim


 
Tim:  As far as I know, the Summit is the only insert that PE made with EBT.  On both the Pacific and Super there is always a hole to feed the fire.  Can shut if off unless you modify your stove / add a damper to it. 

Sisu:  Totally agree! Did you tweak your air control lever at all to allow you to close the stove down a bit more?

Regarding the baffle cracking and warping.  My dealer told me you get one free replacement over the life of the stove and then they are ~$100 after that.  I believe that baffle gets very hot if your stove top / collar hits 700F, glowing red hot that is.  It seems like an area PE should redesign to better reinforce it.  It must weigh at least 20lbs.


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## Sisu (Jan 22, 2013)

No I haven't tweaked anything.  Although a higher degree of control would be nice, I not sure how the manufacturer would respond during a warranty claim if the inner workings of the stove/insert have been modified.


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## Fort Wisers (Sep 20, 2017)

Just found this thread as we have a PE Summit Classic that has a cracked baffle and now realise (did chimney clean and stove clean / inspection just last week) there are cracks around the door area and intake.
We never burn this thing too hot (air intake always on low or just slightly above), door gasket gets checked every month or so and replaced every year or two.
Very disappointing as we totally love this stove. It throws a nice even heat, the view of the fire is great and the look of the red shrouding is gorgeous. We contacted Pacific Energy directly about three weeks ago but they mentioned we have to go through the dealer. Our dealer closed down for good (unfortunately) so now we have sent the information to a different dealer (this morning). When we first contacted PE we only knew about the baffle. The baffle crack we noticed toward the tail end of last burn season. When I started my fall stove routine (sweep chimney, inspect stove etc etc) I noticed the cracks near the door. Fingers crossed we can get something done before the burn season, which is fast approaching.
As mentioned, we're disappointed as we like the stove but also don't want to run something that is unsafe.


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## saydinli (Sep 20, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> Just found this thread as we have a PE Summit Classic that has a cracked baffle and now realise (did chimney clean and stove clean / inspection just last week) there are cracks around the door area and intake.
> We never burn this thing too hot (air intake always on low or just slightly above), door gasket gets checked every month or so and replaced every year or two.
> Very disappointing as we totally love this stove. It throws a nice even heat, the view of the fire is great and the look of the red shrouding is gorgeous. We contacted Pacific Energy directly about three weeks ago but they mentioned we have to go through the dealer. Our dealer closed down for good (unfortunately) so now we have sent the information to a different dealer (this morning). When we first contacted PE we only knew about the baffle. The baffle crack we noticed toward the tail end of last burn season. When I started my fall stove routine (sweep chimney, inspect stove etc etc) I noticed the cracks near the door. Fingers crossed we can get something done before the burn season, which is fast approaching.
> As mentioned, we're disappointed as we like the stove but also don't want to run something that is unsafe.
> ...



How long have you had the Summit? I've heard the PE had some issues with cracks in the past , but I believe they have been rectified.


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## begreen (Sep 20, 2017)

What year was your stove made?


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## Fort Wisers (Sep 20, 2017)

begreen said:


> What year was your stove made?



Sorry gang, meant to mention that. Date of MFG is Sept 2013, we bought new from a dealer.
Its a series A in case the helps as well.

Edit: Sorry everyone, was down looking further at the stove. My wife made a comment last night about when we got the stove so I looked at the sticker on the back again and both Sept over the 2013 and 2009 section punched out. Yesterday I only noticed the punch over the 2013, so assumed it was Sept 2013. I see now that is just indicating the month, then the second punch-out indicates the year. So it turns out the true date of MFG is Sept 2009. Terribly sorry for the confusion.


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## begreen (Sep 20, 2017)

Some of the series A units had this issue. It is covered under warranty. Be pleasant with the new dealer, but persistent.


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## saydinli (Sep 20, 2017)

begreen said:


> Some of the series A units had this issue. It is covered under warranty. Be pleasant with the new dealer, but persistent.



Hey Begreen, has PE ever acknowledged what the issue was with the A series that caused the cracking? Do  they replace the whole stove under warranty or just repairs?


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## begreen (Sep 20, 2017)

saydinli said:


> Hey Begreen, has PE ever acknowledged what the issue was with the A series that caused the cracking? Do  they replace the whole stove under warranty or just repairs?


I think they take the body cracks on a case by case basis. Some are welded and some are replaced. The baffle is a definite warranty changeout, but that point is moot if they replace the whole stove.


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## Fort Wisers (Sep 20, 2017)

begreen said:


> Some of the series A units had this issue. It is covered under warranty. Be pleasant with the new dealer, but persistent.


Thanks Begreen, that is our plan, so far the email exchanges have been great. Pulled all the firebrick tonight and inspected for interior cracks....didn't find anything. We will keep everyone posted on our outcome. Really hoping PE comes through.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 20, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> Thanks Begreen, that is our plan, so far the email exchanges have been great. Pulled all the firebrick tonight and inspected for interior cracks....didn't find anything. We will keep everyone posted on our outcome. Really hoping PE comes through.


It's as if I was looking at my old Summit, which I still have, but not hooked up or in use. The other place to look is at the corners of the door opening at the knife edge, and the upper welds in the corners inside the from of the door openings. They paid to weld mine. I had a certified union steelworker welder, who is my neighbor, grins them out and weld them. I also had him beef up the welds at all 4 door opening corners, they never had an issue since, but the right & left upper face areas cracked again. I filled them with furnace cement and kept going. No issues as they are exterior & separate from the inside stove box. Annoying to look at yes, but still completely functional.
Here is a some photos of mine when it happened.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 20, 2017)

Repairs


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## Hogwildz (Sep 20, 2017)

Repairs


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## Hogwildz (Sep 20, 2017)

Finished repairs


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## Hogwildz (Sep 20, 2017)

The face cracks that came back, that I filled with furnace cement.
They did make changes in the next body styles B&C. They sent me a new B. The one difference I noticed was the air wash plate at the front inside the door, was full length and welded on both ends on the A body. The B seemed to have a small gap on each end of the air wash plating, and no full welds. I believe this was the issue with the A bodies, as it takes a lot of heat there from the air wash & the jets from the baffle, and when it expanded, it pushed on both ends and caused the outside panel cracks. I have not heard of these issues with the B&C bodies.


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## Fort Wisers (Sep 21, 2017)

Hey Hogwildz, thanks for the information. I was looking at our PE Alderlea T5 last night. Although I know it's a different firebox then our Summit the construction is very similar, just smaller. Anyhow, its a B series and I did notice the change around the air wash, same as you mentioned, no welds on the outer edges. There are no cracks in our T5 BUT, the stove is newer and we only use it occasionally. The issue I see is if there is an inherent design issue causing opposing forces during the heat/cool cycle of the stove, it will always end up cracking / re-cracking at these stress points. The fact that you had a certified welder repair the welds only to have the cracks reappear pretty much confirms this.
I wonder if it would be best to grind out the welds where the airwash meets the door sides and leave it floating?
I'll have to take a closer look at ours later today.

Looking at a contingency plan in case PE doesn't come through, what paint did you use after the repairs? The colour match looks really great in your pictures.

Thanks again everyone on this board, helps knowing you're not alone with an issue!


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## Fort Wisers (Sep 21, 2017)

Sorry everyone, was down looking further at the stove. My wife made a comment last night about when we got the stove so I looked at the sticker on the back again and both Sept over the 2013 and 2009 section punched out. Yesterday I only noticed the punch over the 2013, so assumed it was Sept 2013. I see now that is just indicating the month, then the second punch-out indicates the year. So it turns out the true date of MFG is Sept 2009. Terribly sorry for the confusion, I placed a similar note in my post above, hard to get my head back there to see!


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2017)

That makes more sense. 2009 is about the time when the problems were first noted.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 21, 2017)

Stove Bright is what PE uses, and can be had at local stores. I can't find the can to get the color name off of it, but it is a charcoal metallic.
Not sure when the A swapped to B, and it seems like a short time when B was changed to C bodies. You're the first issue with a B model I can remember hearing of.

I would wait to hear what PE is going to do before making any modifications. And would highly suggest not posting modifications for the world and who knows else to see. That may be used against you to deny warranty claims.


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2017)

2009 would make it an A body.


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## Hogwildz (Sep 21, 2017)

begreen said:


> 2009 would make it an A body.


I was thinking the same thing, but the face does not have the vertical face bar on each side of the door opening, where there is a seam from each upper door opening corner running up under the top cover. Unless they made freestanders differently than inserts.
On the inserts, they did away with that separate panel, and went with one pc of facing.


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2017)

Hogwildz said:


> I was thinking the same thing, but the face does not have the vertical face bar on each side of the door opening, where there is a seam from each upper door opening corner running up under the top cover. Unless they made freestanders differently than inserts.
> On the inserts, they did away with that separate panel, and went with one pc of facing.


The freestander may be different. Our 2008 Alderlea doesn't have that vertical facebar either.


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## Fort Wisers (Sep 26, 2017)

Hey guys, sorry for the lack of replies, we had family over for a bit.
Hogwildz, I have zero intention of doing any mods unless PE decides they have washed their hands of the stove.
But thanks for the paint information just in case we have to go down that road, this is much appreciated.
begreen is correct, this is an A series stove, the back nameplate indicates as such. I can't comment on differences between the free standing stoves vs inserts as I don't know.

The new dealer we're dealing with indicated to us they have sent the information off to their PE rep and will get back to us when they hear something.


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## dleeallen (Sep 28, 2017)

I'm battling with a cracked Summit insert now too.  Not sure how long it's been that way - only noticed it early this past spring.  Been working with my dealer to get a response from PE.  Just got the offer of $250 towards welding.  From reading this thread sounds like I need to do a bit more investigation and look for internal cracks.  I only noticed the cracks at the top corners of the door opening.  So hard to see it since the door is almost always closed.  And I'm certainly not looking when the door is open for reloading!  Honestly, I think the reason I noticed them is I upgraded the lighting in the room.  Was pretty dim previously.  Hoping they will honor a new stove/firebox rather than messing with welding.


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## redktmrider (Oct 3, 2017)

To add more fuel to the fire (pun intended), I did the yearly cleaning and inspection on my Alderlea T5 insert today and found the following




This is on the right side of the door just inside the door gasket, it was not there at the start of last season.


This is just inside the door frame on the top right ( close to outside crack), just behind the air wash manifold.


 This is just inside the door on the top left, behind the air wash manifold ( opposite side of the 2nd pic).

The insert is a Alderlea T5 series D. The manufactured date tag had no punches or stamps on it, bit the included inspection certificate was dated 10-2010.
I have contacted my local dealer and supplied him with the above pictures, so we will see how it unfolds.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 4, 2017)

After finding our cracks and mentioning this to my bro in-law, he decided to check his PE summit free stander (Also series A) and found similar cracking by the doors and a small crack in the baffle. He contacted his dealer and PE has offered a new baffle kit and $250 to repair the door area cracks. They also suggested that he install a flue damper (which he already has, as do we) to ensure over drafting isn't causing over firing.
Now, I'm fine with taking advice, but both he and I have ran stoves our entire lives and haven't had issues with cracks on previous stoves. I suspect most people writing on this thread are in a similar situation (seasoned burners). Is PE suggesting we've all gone and forgotten how to use a stove? Or are we having to re-learn because these stoves are less forgiving then older heavier built unit?
The letter he received from PE was dated 2001.

Just thought it an interesting response that they'll fix the issue but suggest end user error.
Still sitting tight on the dealer we contacted.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 6, 2017)

Got off the horn with the dealer, PE will give us a new baffle kit and $250 towards welding.  The conversation turned towards the logistics of getting the stove removed from the home, transporting to the weld shop and then and re-installing afterwards.
I mentioned to her that we're capable of doing this work ourselves, she seemed "iffy" on that and said she'd have to run that by PE to see if they were fine with us doing the removal and re-installation as opposed to them (being a dealer).

So we're still waiting, but at least we're making some progress on the topic.
Anyone else run into this issue (dealer concerned the warranty won't be honoured unless they do remove and re-install)?

Happy Thanksgiving to the fellow Canucks on the board!


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## redktmrider (Oct 6, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> I mentioned to her that we're capable of doing this work ourselves, she seemed "iffy" on that and said she'd have to run that by PE to see if they were fine with us doing the removal and re-installation as apposed to them (being a dealer).



I find that very interesting as my PE local dealer subs out all his installs to the local sweeps. If they insist on it being a professional, you might want to shop around and find somebody that you can "assist". In my case, I've spent quite a bit of time correcting the mistakes made by the stove shop (not the same dealer that as mentioned above) that installed my PE. I am thankful I found a reputable dealer for the sale and install on my Ashford.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 10, 2017)

Dealer has now agreed that we are allowed to perform our own removal and re-installation.
However they are stating that PE will only allow the warranty repair to proceed if we agree to have a draft measurement done after the re-installation.
$250
We've decided to play hard ball at this point as it seems every response we get from this dealer is another reason for them to charge us money.
So,we went back to them and said we'll agree on a draft measurement however we'd like to do it on the *current* installation with the expectation of the following results:

A. The system overdrafts - in which case we'd like to know how as we're running an external brick / steel lined chimney, two 90 degree bends to get there and a flue damper. The flue damper is considered PE's choice of control measures to protect against over draft. We already explained to the dealer that with the air intake on "L" and the flue damper closed we can pretty much choke the fire to nothing (indicating adequate control).
Also, if the system, as is, is over drafting, what other measures can be added to control the draft. AND how poorly choked of a fire should we be running to produce what PE considers reasonable (contrary to all other reasonable techniques generally taken as "best practices" in terms of a fire not being so poorly chocked that excessive creosote and exhaust particulate become an issue).

B. The system has proper controls in place to prevent over drafting - in which case then we'd prefer to have a new stove vs a repaired one as there's obviously an issue with the stove that is not going to be solved by welding over the current cracks.

The dealer has yet to produce anything in writing from PE / distributor that a draft measurement is a 100% requirement after re-installation to proceed with warranty.
My brother inlaw has made the same claim with his stove but different dealer. He put his claim in after we did and just picked up his repaired stove today. We're getting a little frustrated but don't feel like we should be forced to pay anyone to have warranty work done, especially considering we've seen nothing from PE themselves, for all we know the claim is in and pending.

We hate this back and forth and are people who don't enjoy conflict, we simply wanted our stove fixed as per the terms of the PE warranty.
This all started with just a baffle and now we can't even use our stove.
Does anyone know if there's an alternate way of making warranty claims other then through a local dealer?
Is there a regional distributor we can get a hold of?


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## WoodyIsGoody (Oct 10, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> Dealer has now agreed that we are allowed to perform our own removal and re-installation.
> However they are stating that PE will only allow the warranty repair to proceed if we agree to have a draft measurement done after the re-installation.
> $250
> We've decided to play hard ball at this point as it seems every response we get from this dealer is another reason for them to charge us money.
> ...



I think your position sounds very reasonable and I hope you prevail.

And I'm sorry this happened to you because I'm sure it's not very pleasant.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 10, 2017)

Thanks @WoodyIsGoody, such is life.
We will hold tight and see what they come back with. In the mean time we've reached out to who we believe the distributor is.
We're close to burn season and we'd love to have this all resolved before such. 
Unseasonable warm weather is actually working in our favour on this one.


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## begreen (Oct 10, 2017)

My hypothesis on the older Summits is that the culprit may have been the model A EBT. I didn't need more than a month of burning with it in cold temps to start doubting its safe operation with strong draft. In theory it is to ensure more complete combustion of wood gases in the large firebox. Indeed it did that, but feeding additional boost air at the base of the fire with a full box of doug fir right as the fire is taking off can lead to too much fire. When stove top temps kept passing 750º and climbing I decided to block off the EBT intake so that there would be no boost air. That made a major difference in controllability with large fuel loads. It has remained taped off since. The new EBT 2 now functions quite differently. It only feeds secondary air, barometrically. This looks like a much better design.

I'm not sure if the early EBT design was the cause for the cracking and maybe baffle front issues, but it seems suspect. It may be fine on a 12' flue system, but on our 20' stack, on a 25º day, the fire was getting too much air.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks @begreen maybe while we wait for this dealer / distributor correspondence to work out we'll take a good look at our EBT system as well.
I'd be inclined, like you, to simply seal it up. We appreciate the insight.

EDIT: Distributor is now investigating the warranty claim.


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## begreen (Oct 11, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> Thanks @begreen maybe while we wait for this dealer / distributor correspondence to work out we'll take a good look at our EBT system as well.
> I'd be inclined, like you, to simply seal it up. We appreciate the insight.
> 
> EDIT: Distributor is now investigating the warranty claim.


Good luck. Politely, stand your ground.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 11, 2017)

Thanks @begreen, doing our best, I think I've fallen down a time or two on the polite part but trying to stay civil anyhow.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 12, 2017)

Still no response from anyone, tomorrow I start hounding on the phone.
Tonight the temps are dropping near 0 deg C (32F) again, to hell with it, we're having a fire........


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 24, 2017)

Finally got fed up and called distributor, after some discussion they suggested dealing with a new dealer. Went to new dealer and now all is well. They will push the warranty claim through, $250 for welding and a new baffle kit. No strings attached.
Happy to be moving forward!


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## Hogwildz (Oct 24, 2017)

Document the entire process with photos, including the repairs. Load up for bear, even if you end up not needing it.
While you have it out, drop the EBT set up and make sure the flapper is in properly and operational.
I found mine to be dislodged from the factory, and therefore it was never operating properly and was constantly open, feeding the added air to the fire.

I'm more suspect of the way the sides of the air wash plate are welded tight to each side of the opening. If I was still burning my A model, I might consider cutting those end welds loose, or at least cut them loose except for a small spot on each end. I don't suggest that for you as it may bring more warranty issues. Just go with the flow for now, and if the welds fail, press for a new stove, newer body model.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 25, 2017)

Hogwildz said:


> Document the entire process with photos, including the repairs. Load up for bear, even if you end up not needing it.
> While you have it out, drop the EBT set up and make sure the flapper is in properly and operational.
> I found mine to be dislodged from the factory, and therefore it was never operating properly and was constantly open, feeding the added air to the fire.
> 
> I'm more suspect of the way the sides of the air wash plate are welded tight to each side of the opening. If I was still burning my A model, I might consider cutting those end welds loose, or at least cut them loose except for a small spot on each end. I don't suggest that for you as it may bring more warranty issues. Just go with the flow for now, and if the welds fail, press for a new stove, newer body model.



Thanks @Hogwildz appreciate the insight and advice.
I too feel the same about the air wash plate and how all four weld beads locate right up to that point of failure.
As you say though, no point in modifying at this point. We'll follow suit as they would like us to and then give it time again.
Thanks again


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## begreen (Oct 25, 2017)

If your draft is strong a (reversible) mod to try is taping off the ebt intake with metal tape or a flat magnet to see if that improves controllability of the fire. This made a notable improvement with our stove's older EBT1. AFAIK, it's not necessary with the EBT2 design.


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## Fort Wisers (Oct 25, 2017)

begreen said:


> If your draft is strong a (reversible) mod to try is taping off the ebt intake with metal tape or a flat magnet to see if that improves controllability of the fire. This made a notable improvement with our stove's older EBT1. AFAIK, it's not necessary with the EBT2 design.


Sorry, I meant to comment on EBT, I've been thinking about since reading some other posts about it. We checked ours out at some point through all this and everything seems to move freely. But given the current state of the stove we haven't had any strong fires to test the actual functionality. With the current setup, we can choke the fire down to near zero with the air intake a low and the flue damper closed up, so I believe we have decent draft control. This all being said, I do agree with a statement you made early in this thread @begreen that with a long chimney stack (which we have, albeit external brick) perhaps there's enough draft to "suck" the flapper open when it shouldn't be. We will likely take your advice and block it off (in a reversible manner). Personally, we'd rather lose the EBT function then have the stove over fired due to a malfunction.
This forum has proved invaluable, thanks to everyone who works hard to keep it alive and fill it with such great information.


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## Fort Wisers (Nov 8, 2017)

Well, I gotta say we're getting quite frustrated trying to get this resolved. Especially with a low of 14F/-10C coming tomorrow night. The distributor recommended a new dealer as we couldn't get a response from the first dealer without them looking to charge money. I talked on the phone with the distributor and they ended with "the new dealer should push this through quick as the warranty work is approved". My wife originally talked to this new dealer and the service seemed very good. However she talked to a sales person as the person who could deal with the warranty claim was out of office. The sales person asked us to send all the original information we sent to the first dealer via email so we followed suit. Then we waited for about a week. I ended up calling to ensure the email actually arrived. I talked to the gentleman who deals with warranty claims and he looked over the email and mentioned he just hadn't gotten around to looking into the claim, he would do so and call us back that day or the day after. That was maybe another week ago? I'm going to go ahead and call again today but this is getting aggravating. I'm getting the feeling that everyone we talk to is annoyed with us. All we really want is to get our stove fixed and move on with life. I hate to start throwing blame but it's not our fault the original dealer we purchased from has gone under. To be honest, we're not quite sure where to turn now?

We're a quite disappointed in the whole PE warranty claim process at this point......


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## Fort Wisers (Nov 8, 2017)

As luck would have it, we heard from the dealer this afternoon. He hadn't contacted us because he was worried about not finding a good welder in our area. We had already had a welder lined up as we've had other fab work done before (unrelated to stoves). So early next week we'll dismantle we'll get everything started! Finally. I think he was relieved that we had already lined up a welder etc and seemed happy we were willing to take care of that portion of the job (transport to welder, re-install etc), leaving him just to handle the weld repair receipt submission and ordering of the baffle kit.
He has assured us a baffle kit wass on it's way as well.

Very nice end to the day!
Thanks everyone for all the support and guidance, we'll post up some pics of the fix when it's all completed.


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## redktmrider (Nov 8, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> As luck would have it, we heard from the dealer this afternoon.



Glad you finally received a resolution to your warranty claim. What was the total time span from initial contact to the response today?

I contacted my dealer on October 3, received a update on the 25th saying that the regional distributor contacted the manufacturer again that day.
No more news after that. This kind of customer service might make a person hesitant to buy another PE product again.


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## Fort Wisers (Nov 9, 2017)

redktmrider said:


> Glad you finally received a resolution to your warranty claim. What was the total time span from initial contact to the response today?
> 
> I contacted my dealer on October 3, received a update on the 25th saying that the regional distributor contacted the manufacturer again that day.
> No more news after that. This kind of customer service might make a person hesitant to buy another PE product again.



Our very first message, sent to PE directly as our dealer had closed, was 15-Sept-2017.
So we'll be ~ 2 months by the time the stove is repaired and back in service.

Now, in PEs defence in this case, I think most of the time wasted was due to the first dealer looking to find and angle to make money. When I talked to the distributor I think by the end of the conversation he agreed.
However, PE was kept in the loop pretty much the entire time so it would have been nice if someone on their end stepped in and said something.
However, when multiple contacts get involved, things tend to get a little confused and over-looked.

We'll move forward but I suspect a repair isn't the end of this......


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## Fort Wisers (Nov 17, 2017)

Stove is back from the weld shop and re-installed. Still waiting for the dealer to get our baffle kit but with the cooler temps coming we're happy to have our primary stove back in place. A baffle will be an easy swap at this point.
Just having a small fire right now to ensure the welding will hold and help cure the paint.


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## redktmrider (Nov 17, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> Stove is back from the weld shop and re-installed. Still waiting for the dealer to get our baffle kit but with the cooler temps coming we're happy to have our primary stove back in place. A baffle will be an easy swap at this point.
> Just having a small fire right now to ensure the welding will hold and help cure the paint.



Glad you have your stove back. Please keep us updated how it holds up after the repairs.

Still have heard nothing since October 25 on my warranty claim, but it is now the burning season so PE is probably very busy.


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## Fort Wisers (Dec 11, 2017)

Been meaning to post for a week now. The baffle and cheque for weld repair finally showed up at the dealer last week. Brought baffle home and installed the next day. Been running 24/7 since. Last night we dipped to -14C (6.8F) and the main floor of the house was still 21C (69.8F) after an overnight burn this morning. We're not into our cold weather yet but happy to have the stove back up and running with everything fixed. They sent us a series B baffle as replacement, there's an extra bar welded onto it compared to the original.
Even after all this trouble we're still happy with the stove and hope for many more years of good use, time will tell if the weld repairs and the new baffle hold up.


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## redktmrider (Dec 11, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> Brought baffle home and installed the next day. Been running 24/7 since



I"m glad you  have a fully functional stove before your cold weather hits. I had mine fired up a couple nights ago(cracks and all)to help out the blaze king as it got into the teens(F) here. Will probably fire it up again tomorrow night as more of the same temperatures are expected.

I have not heard anything from my dealer, but I haven't been very persistent as I use the other stove most of the time.


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## redktmrider (Dec 11, 2017)

Fort Wisers said:


> However they are stating that PE will only allow the warranty repair to proceed if we agree to have a draft measurement done after the re-installation.
> $250



Did they stand their ground on having the draft measured as part of the warranty claim?


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## Fort Wisers (Dec 12, 2017)

@redktmrider

Hope you hear something soon. We did run our stove a number of times with the cracks with no issues. But it has been a sense of relief to have everything finalised.

In regards to the draft measurement, that statement of requirement was made by the first dealer we tried to make the claim through, it was never confirmed in writing from PE or the distributor as a requirement. Once we started dealing with the second dealer the true intent of the requirement was made clear, it was noted in the warranty claim as a recommendation IF a draft damper wasn't already in place. We explained the installation to the second dealer and everything went without a hitch.


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## redktmrider (Jan 16, 2018)

My dealer emailed me on Jan 2 with the following info from the Tech department

"The unit appears to be subjected to high draft or use on high settings as evidenced by the cracks and the bright red/orange of the baffle rail saddles.
We will offer up to $250 for the weld repair of the cracks. The repair can be done by a competent welder using techniques for mild steel. A receipt for welding is required."

I am OK with this but the the time span it took to come to that conclusion was a little ridiculous. I first contacted my dealer on October 3 and he copied me on the email he sent that same day.

I will pull the unit in the spring and have it repaired as it is in full use right now. As for the "high draft", I am having a problem right now with over firing (probably due to the cracks), and I will address that when it is repaired. Before the damaged appeared, I monitored the stove top temps carefully and rarely did it exceed 800F.


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## begreen (Jan 16, 2018)

Yes, the time delay is not acceptable. The conclusion may be correct, a stove run consistently at very high temps is going to wear out faster. It's hard to measure temps accurately on an insert. 800F on the face would equate to a much higher temp elsewhere. FWIW, our stove has only seen 800F once, directly read on the stovetop in 9 years.


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## redktmrider (Jan 16, 2018)

begreen said:


> 800F on the face would equate to a much higher temp elsewhere



I measure mine on the top right in front of the flu using a IR gun. I am thinking about getting an Auber digital thermometer to make the measuring process easier.


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## dleeallen (Jan 17, 2018)

It's a shame PE won't tell us where to measure the temp and what max temp should be. I can find what I think is the highest temp with an ir gun near the top corner of the door opening but move 1/2" and have it change drastically.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## begreen (Jan 17, 2018)

Unfortunately most steel stove companies don't tell you this in their manuals. Some don't even mention using a thermometer. They just warn about overfiring. That isn't too helpful. On flat top steel stoves, I set the thermometer about 3" in front and about 5-6" to the left or right of the flue collar.


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 9, 2018)

Well folks, we're nearing the end of our burn season so we've been letting the fire burn right out more often these days as outside temps dictate.

One morning, while re-lighting, I took a bit of a look at everything that was repaired / replaced during last fall's events.
The weld repairs seem to have held up so far but the new baffle is warped again.
No splitting but it's certainly not flat, going to go have a closer look at everything and get a picture later when we let it burn down again.


I don't know what to say, we followed PE's/dealers recommendations other then getting a draft report done (whihc was only asked for by the first dealer we dealt with).
EBT is blocked off, the cracks were repaired and we installed the new baffle (warranty).

We have been so worried about something happening again that we never ran the thing more than just above "L" and the flue damper has been closed about 60-80% through all burning (other then cold startup). A large portion of the time we keep it so choked down now we're back to the old days of a smouldering fire (IE reburner jets not even producing flames). At this point I'm almost willing to get a draft report done to show PE we can choke our stove down to levels that aren't even conducive to proper reburning of emissions and ask them "whats next".....
To be honest, even if by some miracle they stepped up to the plate and gave us a new stove, i'm not sure I'd want it knowing it may just be another head ache to deal with. The other half of me want's to scrap the stove and start again.

Stove top temps never hit much past ~650 (checking at the grate portion where we can access the actual plate top of the stove).
Since the baffle is not cracked we're not going to do anything but I'm getting the sinking feeling that we spent thousands on a stove that is certainly not going to give us a lifetime of use.

We understand the concept of an EPA stove, we agree with the idea of burning more efficiently to help with emissions but nothing is being helped if the stoves and / or parts have to be scrapped every decade. We feel we did our due diligence, we researched what we felt was the best stove we could afford to meet our heating needs, it's not like we bought a cheap stove from some unknown company. Yet now we're stuck with what seems like it's going to be a never ending problem. We have two fisher stoves for use at our cabin and in our garage. Both have been fired much harder, neither have a crack, a warp or any other physical issues and other then sweeping the chimney every year and cleaning them out to check on the bricks etc they require zero maintenance and both are over 4 decades old.

*PE*: Your customers believe in EPA rated stoves, we believe in doing our part to help with the environment, we believe in responsible burning, now it's your turn. You need to close the loop on your product life cycles, come up with more realistic design criteria and build something that is going to last like older, heavier built stoves do. Nothing lasts forever but you're only creating a new environmental problem if your stoves are scrap after a decade, and you're going to lose customers while doing so.
We were huge fans of this stove, we raved about it time and time again, until the issues started to arise. Are you going to continue to stand behind your design and blame your customers until they all walk away from you? We're not all first time wood burners, some of us have been burning wood as long as you've been building stoves. Look through the past posts.....are we all just too dumb to use your stove or is there something else going on here?

Sorry for the rant everyone, just a little miffed with this stove considering we enjoyed it so much for a number of years until the issues arose.

Anyone else have much to report?


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2018)

Something is not right. Has anything been done to reduce draft on this tall flue? 

Not sure if this will help. This is what our baffle looks like after 10 seasons of burning (1 at the dealer and 9 at our house). I've included the airwash edge for visual comparison.


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 9, 2018)

begreen said:


> Something is not right. Has anything been done to reduce draft on this tall flue?
> 
> Not sure if this will help. This is what our baffle looks like after 10 seasons of burning (1 at the dealer and 9 at our house). I've included the airwash edge for visual comparison.
> 
> View attachment 225596



Hey @begreen, we've had a flue damper installed for a few years now.
Like I said, with the damper closed we can choke it down to the point that there are little to no flames, neither off wood or off the secondary reburner jets. I'll get a pic later tonight, ours is not certainly as flat as what you have pictured.

Help me out here, if our draft was too strong would we not have other indicators like uncontrollable firebox flaming, shorter burn times, high stove top temps?


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2018)

That sux, I'm sorry to hear you are still having issues. Something is not right. There may be an undiscovered crack or leak somewhere. Keep your dealer and PE appraised.


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 9, 2018)

Went down and took a pic.
I used use the method @begreen used and included the air knife as reference (good idea).
There are still some coals burning away, I'm going to let it burn right out overnight, empty it and start the same process of clean out and inspection we did last fall.....what a pain.


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## begreen (Apr 9, 2018)

Lightened up a bit to see better. It's hard to understand how that has already started warping under low fire. The baffle is very stout.


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 9, 2018)

Thank you good sir.
In regards to why it's warping i don't know what to say......I'll inspect tomorrow sometime after we can clean it right out.
I agree with you begreen that it's warped very quickly but i don't know what else to say or look for?
(We didn't have any baffle warping issues that we noticed the first few years we owned the stove, perhaps we weren't as sensitive to checking for issues?)

There seems to be no evidence of over firing, stove top temps are checked now and then and the flue has a damper. For example, today we loaded two pieces of poplar (we're into the shoulder season "junk wood") at 10:00am this morning, it's now 6 hours into the burn and there's still a large amount of coals (I've had it choked all day). While i wouldn't expect two pieces of poplar even running wide open to run things all that hot, the stove was choked the entire time (except for maybe 5 minutes after load). If there was an excessive draft, or a leak somewhere else in the stove body I would've expected it to be hard to get burn times like that with just two pieces poplar (not the finest wood for burn duration, similar to pine)? I'd also expect to be heated out of the room all the time, and we haven't had any of this.

I believe @Hogwildz had baffle warping issues on both his baffles, we'll be interested to hear his experience.


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## Hogwildz (Apr 11, 2018)

The baffles warp, there is nothing that can be done about it. The warping does no affect the burns though.
The newer baffles are different then the earlier version. I believe they have some kind of stiffeners inside them. Now they seem to bow upward instead of the older ones bowing downward in the front. Further back on the bottom side, they will sag down a bit.
My new baffle is def warped more than the old one did, and is cracked at one of the front jet holes on front, again does not affect the burn in my insert. So I just let it be, and burn on.

My biggest concern on the new models, is the top flame shield plate under the stove ceiling is narrower than the original, and has w wing plate I'll call it, that stops the flames from going direct to the outlet, and makes them go around and then up and into the outlet. I found my stove top slightly glowing no matter what I did. So I removed the new plate and installed the older wider one. Problem solved.

If I was you, I would cut the air lever all the way to low when up to temp, and use the flue damper as fine adjustment. I have no crack issues a few years into burning the new B model they sent me.


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 12, 2018)

Hey @Hogwildz thanks for the feedback. Yeah the new baffle they sent is the newer design, and as you can see from the picture the bow is upward as you've described. We generally run the air intake cracked just above "L" (after up to about 600), if we close it right off we tend to loose air jets after maybe 15-20 mins, even with the flue damper opened up. So our routine has been get it up to about 600, close the air intake to just above "L" and then set the flue damper to keep a decent air jet but nothing more. In this fashion we get about 2-3 hours of air jet burn and then the remainder 5-6 hours as the coal phase. When we were playing with this we'd monitor the stove top every couple of hours......as time has progressed we only check it every once in a while as we thought we had a good routine and generally ran around 650.

Your notes on the top flame shield are very interesting, I didn't even realise our stove had this until we pulled everything apart in the fall.
We have the older single plate design though.
To the best of my knowledge the stove has never seen cherry red, but this model (Summit Classic) has a lot of shrouding.
There's a top grate, we shot the IR through the grate opening (off to the side) to take our stove top temps.

So I guess the moral of the story is we just live with the warped baffle and even if it cracks a bit that's just sort of the expected outcome of this particular stove......

Haven't had a chance to clean the stove out and inspect for anything further.


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## bryankloos (Apr 12, 2018)

Hey All,

I'm on my 4th season with a PE summit, bought new  in 2014 with a professional install.  I'm on my second baffle, the second of which is 1 year old and showing downward warping.  The first had the fiber board top which cracked in several locations.  The second baffle has the solid metal top.   I've never overheated the stove!  

Lately I've noticed that the stove tends to get hotter than in the past with the air intake totally closed, using it the same manner as in the past (air open, temp up to 450-500, shut the damper, let it climb to 650 and then coast for the duration of the burn).  I've also noticed my burn times starting to decrease.  Maybe I'm using better, drier wood??   I suspect maybe a door gasket leak, or at least hope this is all it is...  I plan to do a good clean and inspection later this month when I shut her down for the season.  I'm hopeful I don't find any cracks or leak sources.  I too will be fairly miffed if my 4 year old stove has significant issues.  I'll report back with findings.


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## Hogwildz (Apr 12, 2018)

Fort Wisers said:


> Hey @Hogwildz thanks for the feedback. Yeah the new baffle they sent is the newer design, and as you can see from the picture the bow is upward as you've described. We generally run the air intake cracked just above "L" (after up to about 600), if we close it right off we tend to loose air jets after maybe 15-20 mins, even with the flue damper opened up. So our routine has been get it up to about 600, close the air intake to just above "L" and then set the flue damper to keep a decent air jet but nothing more. In this fashion we get about 2-3 hours of air jet burn and then the remainder 5-6 hours as the coal phase. When we were playing with this we'd monitor the stove top every couple of hours......as time has progressed we only check it every once in a while as we thought we had a good routine and generally ran around 650.
> 
> Your notes on the top flame shield are very interesting, I didn't even realise our stove had this until we pulled everything apart in the fall.
> We have the older single plate design though.
> ...


I don't know your flue set up, but 600 for me is way too high to be setting the air back at. I cut back about 400 measured as insert face above both door corners. And she takes it from there. Even is I don't get secondaries right away, it will get itself above 600 on it's own, over 700, and then give the same flame show you speak of for the next few hours. I have 27' of liner, and must cut the air all the way back.
I don't reload for another 12hours, longer in shoulder season. Try experimenting more with air settings at different temps. If I cut the air back at 600, it would be north to 800 in 20-30 minutes.


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## Hogwildz (Apr 12, 2018)

bryankloos said:


> Hey All,
> 
> I'm on my 4th season with a PE summit, bought new  in 2014 with a professional install.  I'm on my second baffle, the second of which is 1 year old and showing downward warping.  The first had the fiber board top which cracked in several locations.  The second baffle has the solid metal top.   I've never overheated the stove!
> 
> Lately I've noticed that the stove tends to get hotter than in the past with the air intake totally closed, using it the same manner as in the past (air open, temp up to 450-500, shut the damper, let it climb to 650 and then coast for the duration of the burn).  I've also noticed my burn times starting to decrease.  Maybe I'm using better, drier wood??   I suspect maybe a door gasket leak, or at least hope this is all it is...  I plan to do a good clean and inspection later this month when I shut her down for the season.  I'm hopeful I don't find any cracks or leak sources.  I too will be fairly miffed if my 4 year old stove has significant issues.  I'll report back with findings.


The new style baffles have a fiberboard on top, the old style has a ceramic blanket with a metal cover on them. You can try cutting the air back a little sooner, &/or loading larger splits. If you're loading smaller splits, it will burn hotter and shorter. Wood species will also dictate how long burn times last. Dry wood should not reduce burn times, at least I have never had that issue, other than my first year where wet wood smouldered for hours longer, obviously because it was not prime ready to burn.


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 13, 2018)

Hogwildz said:


> I don't know your flue set up, but 600 for me is way too high to be setting the air back at. I cut back about 400 measured as insert face above both door corners. And she takes it from there. Even is I don't get secondaries right away, it will get itself above 600 on it's own, over 700, and then give the same flame show you speak of for the next few hours. I have 27' of liner, and must cut the air all the way back.
> I don't reload for another 12hours, longer in shoulder season. Try experimenting more with air settings at different temps. If I cut the air back at 600, it would be north to 800 in 20-30 minutes.




Hey, our chimney is about 20 feet of SS lined brick, all outside.
Two 90 bends and a 3 foot section of vert and 1 foot (maybe 16" I'd have to go measure to be sure) section of horizontal to get there (stove is in the basement).
Our stove settles fairly quickly. If we run it up to 600 and close things down, she slowly climbs to about 650 over the next 15-20 mins then settles from there for a few hours then begins the slow descent. We do 8 hour burns in the heart of heating season and 12 in the shoulder. Burning mostly ash and maple with a bit of oak and elm now and then.
Our secondaries seem a little more temperamental, if I don't run it up to this temp (or close anyhow) before closing things down then we won't get secondaries, or if we do, they're short lived. Running it up to 600 and then closing gives us the longer air jet burn time. But if we don't get them while closing down, she'll never get there.

I will keep playing for sure and appreciate the guidance!
Take care and enjoy the weekend....


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## begreen (Apr 13, 2018)

Stove top temps alone are not a good guide. Our stove also has 20ft of chimney, straight up. I don't go by stove top temps for setting the air control. On a cold start if I waited until the stove top got to 600ºF before turning down the air, the flue temp would pass 1200º!   On a typical cold start I am starting to close down the air 50% by the flue temp of 450-500º maximum (double-wall probe thermometer). At that point the stove top might be only 250º. You can also do this visually without a flue thermometer. At this point, with dry wood, the fire is burning vigorously. Turn down the air 50%.  Both the flue and stove temps will continue to rise. Secondary combustion will start. Let it burn this way for another 2-5 minutes, then turn down the air another 50% or more. Flue temp at this point may be 500º. Turn the air down enough to slow down the fire, but not to make it smolder. If the fire regains strength and vigor, turn it down more at that point until secondary flame is still present, but more lazy and ghost like. 

Example: This morning's fire start I started to turn the air down to 50% after about 8 minutes - flue temp 400º, stove top 225ª. And then to go from 1/2 open air control to 1/4 open about 4 minutes later. Flue temp 500º, stove top 300º  The air is fully closed about 5 minutes later with a flue temp of ~600F and stove top temp at 450º and  climbing steadily. This is with a 2/3d load of wood in the stove, 4 thick splits of doug fir.

Your starts may vary. A lot of the timing during start up will depend on the wood, how dry it is, the thickness of the splits, how much of a gap there is between the splits, etc. but the process is the same. Use your eye if you don't have a flue thermometer, but I recommend getting one to have better control and to reduce stress on the flue system.


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 16, 2018)

Hey BG, ok, wait now I think we've all been talking two different things, if I led you to believe I was talking on cold starts I apologise, what I've been talking about is during reload. I'll have to go back through my posts and see if I've been misleading.....

Generally, with our climate, once the stove gets lit in mid October we normally don't do a cold start all season long unless we go away for the weekend. So cold starts for us are really few and far between, so generally they aren't on my mind (although the recent weather has had us doing more cold starts then normal so I'll say that with cautiously). What I was referring to was a reload routine say in the morning.

Lets say I get up in the morning, stove has been burning all night.....stove might be at 200-300F (dont quote that number, I haven't measure a morning temp in a while) and flue would be lower (Our flue thermometer, installed this year, is above our damper so it's common for us to see higher stove temps than flue temps after the flue damper is started into use). I'll open everything up (air intake and flue damper, rake the coals ahead (unload some ash first if required, maybe once a week), load the wood and close the door....generally go up and pour a mug of coffee. I'll come back down in a few minutes to start closing down. After the fire gets rolling the flue will certainly be hotter then the stove body so I'll close the flue damper to maybe 1/2, maybe more, at this point the flue may climb a bit but the climb will be slowed, after a few more, when the stove body is up around 600 I shut the air intake right down and then take it off "L" just ever so slightly, by this point the flue and stove are almost equal. I then set the flue damper further closed as much as I can to maintain the air jets and then that's it until the next load....from here the stove body may climb a bit but the flue will generally stay the same or even start to drop if I closed the damper a fair bit more after the final "close down".
With the flue damper I can control the flue temperature pretty quickly.

Now as you state, this can all change a bit depending on wood, outside pressure, etc etc.....
For example: Sometimes on really cold days I'll tend to close the air intake down first as I want a little more heat in the chimney....
On a -30 sunny high pressure day I may never end up closing the flue damper more then say 1/3 otherwise we can't draft enough to keep much going properly (outside brick chimney) but we only get a week or two a year like this......

Only thing I can think of is perhaps our IR gun is off and maybe we actually don't hit 600F?
I guess it would be a god excuse to get another. As I mentioned in previous emails I haven't been using the IR gun much because the routine is pretty repeatable each re-load.
The big thing for me (and call me old school) is watching that firebox, if it's full of flames, for me that's too much (either draft or intake).

In the case of a cold start, sure I can see the stove body taking much longer to reach temperature before the flue is long past a point where some control needs to happen (IE start closing something).
During a cold start I'd likely start closing the damper long before the stove body is heated otherwise that's a lot of heat running rampant up the chimney. But again, we might do maybe a half dozen cold starts in a season, if that even? So I've been more concerned with the day to day routines that I figured would have more of an impact on the final longevity of the stove's life.

I think in our case, what might make things different depending on if you have a flue damper or not, is our flue damper and having the flue thermometer above it.
If I were to, for example, run things and watch the two temps climb, if I close the flue damper even to just 1/2, I can fairly quickly control the flue temperature. If I close it even more I can almost reverse the flue temp increase (IE it will start to drop) yet the stove body will continue to climb.
Where as if I close the air intake on the stove, It generally affects both the flue and the stove temps.

Perhaps I grew up and have some habits from how I learned to run older stoves?
Please feel free to comment if you see anything I'm doing that sounds like a "ah ha, that's not right" situation.

But in my mind if the firebox is not full of flames and the stove top and chimney run less than 600 (actually once we're running the flue is generally only around 400-450, I like to try and let as little heat up the chimney as possible while maintaining a decent clear exhaust and enough draft to run the air jets) while the stove body is in the 600 range then are these not all decent indicators that I'm not overfiring?


Just want to say thanks to everyone on this board making suggestions (especially @begreen and @Hogwildz) etc. I apologise if my posts got a little frustrated sounding....doing my best to remain patient and ensure we learn what we can from the experience.


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## begreen (Apr 16, 2018)

Sounds like you are doing the right thing and pretty mindful of how the stove is burning. I too rely on visual guidance in addition to the measured temps. The temp inversion (lower flue than stovetop temp) is normal once the air is closed down. Our stove runs about 100º cooler in the flue than the stove top at peak burn.

No need to apologize. If I was in your shoes I'd be expressing the same concerns. I'm glad you have a good dealer. I bought our stove from Tom Oyen in Bellingham. He is a wealth of knowledge on these stoves and may have some insight. maybe start a PM with @thechimneysweep ?


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## Fort Wisers (Apr 17, 2018)

Thanks BG, perhaps we'll reach out to them!
Take care


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## Hogwildz (Apr 18, 2018)

I would control the stove air intake lever, then fine adjust with the flue damper after the stove is established. I wonder if the flue getting hotter first or more than normal, is creating a stronger draft issue?


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