# Knowing when to stand your ground...



## keyman512us (Sep 3, 2007)

Hope everyone is Enjoying the long LaborDay weekend...Thought it would be particularlly fitting to post this at this time...We have all heard the PSA from time to time "Friends don't let friends drive drunk" and "Take the keys...do whatever you have to do".
This fellow decided "He was fine to drive". After taking ten minutes to stumble into the Local Dunkin Dougnuts (How Bright was that choice??) And "gibbering" to folks working behind the counter...he couldn't hold his thoughts long enough to say "Coffee"...
He decided to get into his truck and leave. A friend and I tried to talk some sense into him. We offered to call him a cab and even went so far as to tell him "HAND OVER YOUR KEYS...one of us will drive you and your truck home...but you aren't getting back behind the wheel". 
Now at this point...who would be so bold as to  refuse??? After the insults and profanity he uttered...I walked back to my car (to grab my cell phone). My friend Jay kept an eye on the guy and tried to talk more sense into him.
Luckily...A phone call was not necessary...A neighboring local police officer that pulled in to get a coffee...called the locals...
And that's all it took....


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## keyman512us (Sep 3, 2007)

When strangers have to get involved you should have listened to friends.

Well we might have been strangers...since nobody was "Enough of a friend to keep him out of trouble." He should have been his own best friend and listened to good advice. If you've been drinking and someone tells you so...maybe you should save some headaches' and listen. 

"This gentlemans' ride home was first class". A ride in a cruiser...and an "easier ride on his truck"...all in all the safest way home for him.


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## keyman512us (Sep 3, 2007)

So why get involved???

The driver was to drunk to notice his surroundings. We were not. The tree branch (see the second photo) hanging from his front bumper was the icing on the cake. Even though from his vantage point in the cruiser...he was still to drunk to spot the damage he did to his truck. 

I'm sure someone will end up with some firewood from his attempt to drive home.


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## keyman512us (Sep 3, 2007)

Luckily this one turned out with a "good ending"...but it could have been different.

After things had calmed down and the story unfolded...This particular individual was well known to local authorities. This would have been his forth DUI had he gotten behind the wheel. At any rate...he will at least "pay from his wallet" and hopefully has learned a valuable lesson. At least folks are safe for one more night.

If you find yourself in a similiar situation ...get involved. Pick up the phone, do whatever you think is right...just don't ignore it. You may prevent a tradgedy. And if you do have "one or two" and "someone calls' you on it'.." don't get angry...just listen to what you know is good advice and save yourself (the potential headache) the trouble this guy had to go through.

I'm not a 'goody good' but If it comes down to me or my family being put in peril for someone elses bad choices..."I'll do whatever it takes".

Sometimes "Doing what is right" isn't always "cut and dry". When you give somebody options and they refuse...just remember tradgedies can be prevented. You never hear about "happy endings" but this is as close as it gets.

So "Chalk one up for the good guys"...Knowing that "Beverly would be taking his truck home for him"...


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## 11 Bravo (Sep 3, 2007)

Even that can not be enough. The last fatal accident I took was an 18 year old kid who had graduated from H.S. the week prior. He physically fought his best friend because the best friend was the "key master". The 18 year old got his keys and left with several friends running down the road after him as he drove his Ford Contour away. The friends could hear the impact that killed the kid 1/4 mile from the house as he hit a tree at 60 mph. I woke the kids mom at 4 a.m. to make the death notification.....always alot of fun.


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## keyman512us (Sep 3, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> Even that can not be enough. The last fatal accident I took was an 18 year old kid who had graduated from H.S. the week prior. He physically fought his best friend because the best friend was the "key master". The 18 year old got his keys and left with several friends running down the road after him as he drove his Ford Contour away. The friends could hear the impact that killed the kid 1/4 mile from the house as he hit a tree at 60 mph. I woke the kids mom at 4 a.m. to make the death notification.....always alot of fun.


Stories like that were "playing in our minds". Now that my friends and I are a little older we think of "friends lost", funerals attended etc. The guy we stopped was very bealigerant to say the least. It had gone through our minds (Jay's especially) that the guy was just about ready to "take a swing" at us. Although it was doubtfull he would have been able to connect we were glad he didn't because he would have been praying for the cops to show up...as we weren't the only ones a bit angry at his attempt to get back behind the wheel. The first cop on the scene (a 'friend of ours'...although he was somewhat smaller than the driver...knew 'his back was covered'...). When the "local boys arrived" we stepped aside. Faced with the rather large fellows we have on the force here...he quickly changed his tune and surrendered quietly.

Massachusetts is not one of the states where "All there has to be is intent". The guy wasn't caught behind the wheel...so no OUI...but seeing as he already has 3 DUI's...hopefully he is on probation and the system will work.

You always hear the stories "If someone would have just tried to stop them from getting behind the wheel" from a grieving loved one...a spouse, a sibling, a grandparent. Well we did our part...hopefully the judge will do the same.


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## 11 Bravo (Sep 3, 2007)

keyman.......my co-workers and I have sat around and tried to figure out just how much of our jobs is alcohol related. Whether it is a crash, assault, domestic, malicious destruction of property, runaway juvenile, or even a loud music call .......we guess-timated that 75% or more of our calls or self-generated complaints had some kind of alcohol involvement. It is job security.......I am no proponent of drug legalization, and will tell anyone that your average street sold marijuana is 50-100x  stronger than the stuff we messed with in H.S. 25 years ago, so it is nothing to screw around with. But on the other hand, in 15 years as a road officer of large departments, I have never taken a fatal accident, stabbing, shooting, bar fight, or homicide that involved marijuana............ Of course, crack or meth is a whole different story, and I have yet to meet an addict who told me that they did not start by smoking marijuana...........


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## 11 Bravo (Sep 3, 2007)

oh yeah...............nice snag by you and your friend....


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## 11 Bravo (Sep 3, 2007)

As far as the arrest, here in Michigan, you and your friends testimony that you had seen the suspect behind the wheel in the drivers seat, with the vehicle running or not, would be enough PC for the arrest (along with sobriety tests and maybe even a quick preliminary breath test). The only real contention the suspect could make in court is that between the time you confronted him and the time the officer arrived, is that the suspect knocked down a few beers or shots.........


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## keyman512us (Sep 3, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> As far as the arrest, here in Michigan, you and your friends testimony that you had seen the suspect behind the wheel in the drivers seat, with the vehicle running or not, would be enough PC for the arrest (along with sobriety tests and maybe even a quick preliminary breath test). The only real contention the suspect could make in court is that between the time you confronted him and the time the officer arrived, is that the suspect knocked down a few beers or shots.........



I'm glad to hear your thoughts on the subject. In the course of your duties (seminars, talking with legislators etc.) be sure that the lawmakers understand those are the tools needed to keep the streets safe for all of us. The laws are getting tougher (and IMHO rightly so) but some areas are slow to change. We did let it be known that we were willing to testify if need be but were told more than likely it would not be necessary given the fact this person was already on probation (and therefore should not have been drinking as a condition of his probation) and that he "would have some explaining to do".

The officier that was first to arrive (from a surrounding town) I knew well. A year and a half ago I talked with him at length at the courthouse (we were both there to testify...in..of all things another DUI case...I as a witness for the state). In that case I pulled (and restrained) a 23 year old kid from his car that did a "barrel roll" off a maple tree doing 45MPH.

The car 'launched' and rolled off the tree and landed on it's roof in the on-coming lane...luckily the family in their minivan missed being hit by mere inches. Once the kid got to his feet...he tried to flee the scene. He was kindly (but firmly) pushed to a sitting position on the curb by a few people including myself and politely told:

"Relax Kid...Have a seat and tell your story to the Police...they will be here shortly...You can't just walk away from this".


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## keyman512us (Sep 3, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> keyman.......my co-workers and I have sat around and tried to figure out just how much of our jobs is alcohol related. Whether it is a crash, assault, domestic, malicious destruction of property, runaway juvenile, or even a loud music call .......we guess-timated that 75% or more of our calls or self-generated complaints had some kind of alcohol involvement. It is job security.......I am no proponent of drug legalization, and will tell anyone that your average street sold marijuana is 50-100x  stronger than the stuff we messed with in H.S. 25 years ago, so it is nothing to screw around with. But on the other hand, in 15 years as a road officer of large departments, I have never taken a fatal accident, stabbing, shooting, bar fight, or homicide that involved marijuana............ Of course, crack or meth is a whole different story, and I have yet to meet an addict who told me that they did not start by smoking marijuana...........



Nicely put 11-B! I hear exactly what you are saying. So often people bring up "certain points" but rarely do we hear from "those on the front lines" that do a job few would want to do.

Personally I gave "More than a serious thought" to a career in law enforcement. I have quite a few friends in that line of work...It's a profession very few fully comprehend...just glad there are men and women willing to do (and deal with the job).


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## mayhem (Sep 4, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Luckily this one turned out with a "good ending"...but it could have been different.
> 
> After things had calmed down and the story unfolded...This particular individual was well known to local authorities. This would have been his forth DUI had he gotten behind the wheel. At any rate...he will at least "pay from his wallet" and hopefully has learned a valuable lesson.



I'm assuming not all of those DUI's resulted in convictions, otherwise this guy should already have permanently lost his license to operate a motor vehicle in MA.  3 strikes and you're out.


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## Eric Johnson (Sep 4, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> keyman.......my co-workers and I have sat around and tried to figure out just how much of our jobs is alcohol related. Whether it is a crash, assault, domestic, malicious destruction of property, runaway juvenile, or even a loud music call .......we guess-timated that 75% or more of our calls or self-generated complaints had some kind of alcohol involvement. It is job security.......I am no proponent of drug legalization, and will tell anyone that your average street sold marijuana is 50-100x  stronger than the stuff we messed with in H.S. 25 years ago, so it is nothing to screw around with. But on the other hand, in 15 years as a road officer of large departments, I have never taken a fatal accident, stabbing, shooting, bar fight, or homicide that involved marijuana............ Of course, crack or meth is a whole different story, and I have yet to meet an addict who told me that they did not start by smoking marijuana...........



....Or drinking milk.

Alcohol, meth, crack, herion and all that stuff is dangerous. Alcohol probably more than the others, for all the reasons you mentioned and more. Pot is more powerful these days, but people smoke less. It's a pretty benign drug compared to the others, IMO.


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## DiscoInferno (Sep 4, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> Of course, crack or meth is a whole different story, and I have yet to meet an addict who told me that they did not start by smoking marijuana...........



Ah, the famous "gateway drug" argument.  I assume almost all addicts start on alcohol and tobacco, making those the true gateway drugs in that sense.  Pot might be their first illegal drug, but surely very few people go straight to pot.  Remember - correlation does not imply causation.  The right question is not how many crack/meth/heroin addicts started with pot (alcohol, tobacco, chewing gum, etc.), but rather how many pot smokers graduate to crack/meth/heroin.  I.e., does pot use actually facilitate the use of harder drugs, or is it simply the (unsurprising) case that most heavy drug users used pot (alcohol, tobacco, chewing gum) in the past?  I actually don't know the answer, but I know that the government can't be trusted to give honest numbers on this issue.

I'm subject to random drug tests (2 in the last several months) to maintain a security clearance, and what's crazy is that I can be drunk as a skunk and pass, because alcohol is legal.  But the slightest THC, and I might be looking for a new job.  Luckily, I'm not into that scene.


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## keyman512us (Sep 4, 2007)

Well people do make bad choices "under the influence" of (choose the substance). Before the discussion drifts too far off...let's not make this into an ashcan topic. I posted it here in the "non hearth advice" so that anyone faced with the dilema of "should I make a call or not...should I get involved" would know they "aren't alone" and other people do get involved from time to time. This particular story "had all the classic hallmarks" and would have been hard to ignore.

Whatever people choose to do behind closed doors, in the privacy of their own home or whatever...so be it. When they put your life and mine in jeopardy it's time to act accordingly.


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## johnsopi (Sep 6, 2007)

It more then a gateway drug. It is a gateway into lifestyle of having"friend" that are into illegel activities. There is a correlation  between
illegel actvites and crime. You lay down with dogs you get fleas.


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## Gibbonboy (Sep 6, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> .....I am no proponent of drug legalization, and will tell anyone that your average street sold marijuana is 50-100x  stronger than the stuff we messed with in H.S. 25 years ago, so it is nothing to screw around with. But on the other hand, in 15 years as a road officer of large departments, I have never taken a fatal accident, stabbing, shooting, bar fight, or homicide that involved marijuana............ Of course, crack or meth is a whole different story, and I have yet to meet an addict who told me that they did not start by smoking marijuana...........



Sorry, but today's cannabis is roughly the same strength as it always was. It may be now grown better, or delivered without leaves, etc. but it's the same plant. The method used by the gov't to fabricate those stories in testing was completely unscientific and skewed so badly that it's useless. There are strains that are more powerful than others, but overall there is no "super weed" out there now that wasn't around in 1934. 

I give you great credit since most LEO would die before they admit that cannabis doesn't cause crime or death (directly). Addicts are just that- addicts- whether it's drugs, food, or sex, they'll get hooked on whatever is available. Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now!  Marijuana is a racist term picked up by Anslinger and his butt-buddies to scare Americans that the Mexicans would get all psychotic on the stuff and go on ****/murder escapades in nice, white neighborhoods. It was just a Mexican slang term for it, he turned it into a racial issue to help out his father-in-law and cronies to make more money on synthetic fibers and drugs. I avoid using it now, and Cannabis is the proper name anyway. 

Hats off  to keyman for doing what is right, even if it is hard or a PITA. Were there more like you on the streets, I think people would be less inclined to take off after drinking.


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## webbie (Sep 6, 2007)

johnsopi said:
			
		

> It more then a gateway drug. It is a gateway into lifestyle of having"friend" that are into illegel activities. There is a correlation  between
> illegel actvites and crime. You lay down with dogs you get fleas.



I don't buy it......

That's like saying that a person who took some excess deductions on his income tax form is the same as Ken Lay and friends (at Enron) - or, more timely, like saying Bush is as bad as Stalin. 

My friend that operates the Jaws of Life says he smells booze on a good percentage of the cases when he prys cars apart. Legal, of course. 

Personally, I don't like the "buzz" of marijuana.....but if I did, I would probably smoke (or eat) the stuff in moderation....and especially if it fixed my bad back (see: Opiates).......

The point is that the whole War on Drugs is just more of the same like "A terrorist under every rock". There is always a tiny bit of truth in these things - but follow the money......on all sides. 

A person has to think a little deeper and ask 'why is this substance illegal, while this other one is legal?". In the case of a soft drug like Pot, it is simply because the people who used to smoke it had black or brown skin.....look what happened when they tried to make booze illegal - that was because white people drank it!

Anyway, not as simple as that either, but for the government to tell you or I that we cannot ingest coffee, tea, or even hemp or poppies is really far-out! 

An interest consequence of the war on drugs has been the rise of MUCH more dangerous substances...which OUR kids and citizens are using to poison themselves. They sniff tapping fluid and kill their brain cells, or do meth and burn out. Or, they get prescriptions (legally or illegally) and get hooked on that stuff.

A perfect example was the King himself - Elvis....who joined Nixon and others in anti-drug efforts, but took as many as hundreds of various pills each day. Or Rush, with his 300+ doses of opiates per day.

Funny thing....a lot of this stuff was legal for hundreds of years and society did not fall apart.


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## 11 Bravo (Sep 6, 2007)

Web.....Societies didn't fall apart, but I think that because of the context in which the drug was done and its strength. As far as marijuana being a gateway drug, I am not so sure about that, but we say in the business,  "just because you smoke pot doesn't mean you will do meth or  crack someday............but most meth users and crack heads started out by smoking pot."
...........But honestly, my co-workers and I have thrown more weed out the window than we have ever charged anybody for. We know who's smokin...and that group never bothers anyone. They work, they come home, and they smoke their dope. They stay home and nobody is the wiser. It's when they get behind the wheel that I have a problem, but that is usually alocohol involved, not marijuana.


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## Eric Johnson (Sep 9, 2007)

Gibbonboy said:
			
		

> 11 Bravo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good seeing you again, Gibbonboy. I agree completely. Some of the Canabis Indica strains are very good for pain relief and are used my many people as organic, herbal medication for chronic conditions, such as back pain. In these cases, I think that denying them medication is the crime, not supplying or using it.


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## webbie (Sep 9, 2007)

When my son was in high school I lectured him about drinking and driving, and also about smoking pot and driving. He responded by showing me the British studies of how pot smoking actually made the test subjects MORE careful! 

I still don't buy it - at least one should wait until the initial buzz wears off! The problem, also, is that many people today "team up" on drugs, beer and whatever legal (usually stolen, or else bought from another kid who has a script)..... no doubt that the combo of pot and other things is extremely mind altering.

Yeah, pot isn't my thing but I have no problem with folks who partake it. The government might have a problem, but I don't. As I said, if it was the wonder drug for me I would not hesitate - then again, I would not drive around smoking it either.

Personally I don't have a death wish....nor even a "mangled up in a crash" wish. So far I have made it to 53 relatively unscathed (no broken bones), so I'll keep on with being conservative about all these issues...when it comes to my own imbibing. It's cool, because I can ALWAYS be the designated driver whenever we hang with other folks.


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## webbie (Sep 9, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> .I am no proponent of drug legalization, and will tell anyone that your average street sold marijuana is 50-100x  stronger than the stuff we messed with in H.S. 25 years ago,



Apparently, your high school did not have that opiated afghani stuff, nor the hash oil. A few hits of that, and you were on your back either paralyzed, or snoring! I remember being 17 and having a summer apartment at the shore - we had some of that Afghani.....my friend smoked some and he fell asleep on his back with his hand on his chest...and snored loudly.

We, who were still awake, decided to "bomb" him with our sneakers...throwing them up in an arc so they landed on him. He did not wake up - the shoes just bounced off of him!

Try that with todays weed!

Marijuana has gotten stronger, but how much depends on a few things. First of all, the real junk was Mexican "bush" which was the whole plant and probably contained males and females...sold by the kilo compressed.

But soon after that, Columbian and Jamacian were being brought in - and that stuff was pretty strong....although not "good" (according to "heads" who study the stuff, the colombian gave you headaches!)...

Now the science has advanced and the seeds are better - growing methods are better - AND, because of law enforcement, it pays to make the packages much smaller. But I would say that comparision....if taken over the columbian and jamacian...or even the Thai Sticks which were popular in the 70's, would be 2x to 5x as strong. And, as Eric says, they smoke much less - heck, at $500 an oz you are not gonna roll fat ones!

All is all it is probably a good thing, since the smokers do not inhale as much smoke for their high - of course, I am thinking of their lung health. It is best not to smoke ANYTHING, and even much of the medicinal marijuana now is being given in drops or pill form.

Even US DEA stats show average "old" pot at 1% THC and new pot at 4-6%. When the skinny joints are taken into consideration, that is not such a vast difference.


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## Gibbonboy (Sep 10, 2007)

Good points. The sad part is that DEA and the entire gov't have their heads in the sand when it comes to cannabis. They just couldn't ADMIT that cannabis is statistically safer than water to ingest (0 cannabis deaths vs. 100+ water-intoxication deaths every year)- and that they WRONGLY imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Americans because Mellon and DuPont just had to market their synthetic fibers and medicines. The gov't won't even allow unbiased studies into the benefits of cannabis- as far as their concerned, it should always be a Schedule I narcotic, so we can avoid the "Reefer Madness" in the U.S. You also can't argue the benefits in court, not admissable evidence, since, surprise! it's a Schedule I narcotic, which means it "CAN'T POSSIBLY" have any benefit. Crazy crazy crazy. 

Personally, I see cannabis use and driving just like drinking and driving- just a plain bad idea. Even now, the studies being done in some of the more civilized countries are showing actual benefits to smoking weed, since the coughing tends to clear your lungs of more than the tar/etc that you get from the smoke. And these same studies indicate a slight DECREASE in lung cancer among pot smokers. 

Drugs aside, the benefits of growing industrial hemp in this country would far outweigh risks of "addicton". Hempseed oil in a diesel engine is so much more incredibly efficient and cheaper than ethanol. But that would upset Monsanto and the others producing Bt corn seed and pesticides, so we can't have that!

Sorry for the ranting, but our gov't is so full of BS that we probably could grow enough corn with all the fertilizer they produce!

EDIT: maybe this should all be in the Ash Can?


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## webbie (Sep 10, 2007)

Yeah, it is ash can material, but it started out as perhaps "general advice" in the DIY (how to arrest your own local drunk)


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## webbie (Sep 10, 2007)

11 Bravo said:
			
		

> Web.....Societies didn't fall apart, but I think that because of the context in which the drug was done and its strength. .



We Americans tend to overindulge in a lot of things - consumerism and all.

You can go visit Peru today.....and the national drink is Coca tea....made from the same plant that makes crack! It is a mild stimulant, comparable to coffee and has benefits for those living at higher elevations. So if we walked around and chewed coca leaves we'd be OK. But instead, we get it refined with a bunch of chemicals that would have the Haz-Mat team running for cover....then we refine that even further (crack). 

Opiates and Cocaine were used openly in this country and many others for a long time - in fact, they were in a lot of those "cures" that were sold by street vendors and at carnivals. Coca was in Coca-cola!

I read a book about the making of the trans-continental railroad - the rr was built by mostly Irish going west and Chinese going east. The Union Pacific brought the chinese over and at first thought that they were too small to get any work done. They were amazed and surprised that they ended up doing as much or more work than a strong European. All they needed, according to the book, was fresh veggies for their cuisine and their opium for Sunday (the day off). 

On the tracks coming west, an entire train of whorehouses and bars had to "support" the European crews and there was decidedly more trouble on that end - fights, murder, robbery, etc.

So I guess it has always been the same - pick your poison. As a Law Enforcement officer it must be tough, because you have to enforce the law even when it is the law itself (not what the law is about) that creates the problem. I applaud you for using discretion. There are too many real problems to waste time on "people just being people".


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## Gooserider (Sep 11, 2007)

As a comment - I've done substitute teaching, and I have personally asked the kids about getting various substances - ALL said that it was difficult to get booze and tobacco because of gov't regs on ID checks, but the dealers didn't check ID's so it was very easy to get canibas and other harder drugs...

The War on (some) Drugs IMHO makes the entire problem worse, in much the same way that Prohibition made (and still makes) our alcohol problems worse.

It runs the price up, and increases the profit margins - this makes it a highly profitable business, worth fighting over, and without legal means of dispute resolution - look at the crime rates during Prohibition, and how rapidly they dropped after it no longer made sense to gun down the competition.

It forces the customer to deal with underground people, who have a motivation to sell harder (and higher profit margin) drugs

It runs up the costs for addicts so that they almost have to commit crimes to support their habbits - A hard core addict now needs over $100/day, hard to come by honestly, but I've seen published statements by our current pharmecuitical companies that they could PROFITABLY supply the same addict through the existing drug-store supply chain for $8-10/day, if it were legal, an amount the addict could get by panhandling if nothing else...

It is dangerous for the consumer - there is no "quality control" - the stuff you buy today might be totally different from what you get tomorrow.  This isn't a big deal with pot, unless it's laced w/ something (how do you know?) but with drugs that have potential for deadly overdoses, it is a major problem.  Legal suppliers would presumably be forced to engage in some form of "truth in advertising" and QA rating, as well as avoiding dangerous addititves just to avoid legal liability - 

Since dealers are already breaking the law, they have no reason not to deal to kids - if it were legal you could somewhat discourage it by imposing some variant on the 'alcohol model' - a determined kid will get stuff no matter what you do (and it is foolish to pretend otherwise) but I've never been OFFERED the chance to buy black market Buttwiper or Camels, however I get offered illegal drugs all the time...

That there are legal restrictions on substances encourages "binge drinking" and other abusive behaviour because you need to get all you can when the getting is good, because you don't know when the next chance will come around...

Etc. Etc.  I have never seen a "problem with drugs" argument that was used to push the War on Some Drugs that didn't really work out to be WORSE because they were illegal...

No offense meant to individual low level LEO types, but I have often thought that the way our system works provides strong incentive on the part of our senior LEO types, Police Union officials, and such to push for laws against some drugs and other "consensual crimes" simply because it allows them to grow their budgets and sizes in order to "deal with the problem"....  Besides it's probably safer and easier than chasing the few REAL violent criminals out there!

Gooserider


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

***EDIT***....Well what started out as a "Public Service message" has turned into something else entirely...This is now a request FOR ADVICE...



			
				Gibbonboy said:
			
		

> EDIT: maybe this should all be in the Ash Can?



Keyman will be requesting advice (please refrain from commenting until the 'picture worth a thousand words is posted....PLEASE!!)



			
				Webmaster said:
			
		

> Yeah, it is ash can material, but it started out as perhaps "general advice" in the DIY (how to arrest your own local drunk)



...Well WEB, I do enjoy your 'colorfull comments'...And I thank you for bringing some levity to a "somewhat close to home subject for me"....What started out as a "Look...Just take notice"...thread. A spotlight on "Good decisions...and bad ones" has "Morphed into something else entirely"...


But As I said above it's now a request for advice...Keyman is "looking for a little inspiration...and a little motivation"...

I've meet a lot of good people here on this forum...

Whether it's been "in person" or through sharing their thoughts, their advice or just speaking from their own experience...

I'de like to think I have some good friends here... After this post...I'm going to find out "Just exactly who my TRUE friends are..."

I'll try to keep this as "On topic" as possible...but where the story starts and where it stops...depends on your perspective I guess...Some I'm going to call this one:

.......The Story of the '3 Jay L's...'

(PLEASE...Once again, in all seriousness folks I (Keyman) ask you to choose your words carefully...I'm asking for some advice...Please Refrain from 'chiming in' until the picture worth a thousand words is posted...)


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

....Without "Turning this into a soap opera" or a diatribe to "refresh everyone's memory"....My original Post:



			
				keyman512us said:
			
		

> Hope everyone is Enjoying the long LaborDay weekend...Thought it would be particularlly fitting to post this at this time...We have all heard the PSA from time to time "Friends don't let friends drive drunk" and "Take the keys...do whatever you have to do".



...Someone Motivated me by their willingness to "Take a stand"...

That person's name...Is Jay Leger.

"....Oh H^ll no...Some Drunk thinks he's gonna get behind the wheel and put other people's lives in Jeopardy...yeah you bet I'm gonna put a stop to it..."

That was his response to my question "...BA (Jay's 'nickname': 'Bad attitude'..." 

...A little history for folks..."We go way back...'back in the day'..."

...Years ago "The old 'crew' in G-Vegas" used to hang out "Down on Main Street (Place called 'Lovn Donuts'...Good Times...but they are gone...time marches on...Brooks Pharmacy's parking lot now occupies the site). But we still get together from time to time...

...The "...Young'ins Call us 'The old f^rts'..." yeah sure "we got no clue right???"

I think back to how many times "I've stopped somebody from getting behind the wheel..."

..That's why I said:



			
				keyman512us said:
			
		

> Well people do make bad choices "under the influence" of (choose the substance).



I'm sure "Everybody Glanced right over this one..." YUP...Nobody chose to comment...

...SO let's Clarify that first... 

..I'm sure anyone in the "Human services line of work" (choose your proffession, Police officer, counselor, therapist...whatever line of work where you have to deal with people on a day to day basis) can attest to this one BUT from the view of a police officer that has pulled someone over for bad driving??? Some folks shouldn't have been driving in the first place...Talk to a drunk driver "The next day (when sober)" and you would be amazed at some of the stories... well that is of course assuming they are still alive...paints a pretty good picture why they were in "the condition they were in BEFORE they started drinking in the first place..."

So why bring this up???? 


"Moments frozen in time...But time will WAIT for no one..."


"The other night while talking with (two) friends as (Dr. 'D'..)... the conversation turned to good cheer....just like old times...in more ways than one...I decided to share a story. Three people read the story about a WIDOW...It's a "Tale about how people's actions can be percieved differently... how seemingly INNOCENT actions, if not followed by the right actions can do HARM..."





....A woman's HEART is not to be PLAYED around with.

Some people learn this lesson the hard way...some never learn at all....


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

....But alas we "All have things to do in life..."

...In our daily lives we have to choose which items (tasks at hand) we have to spend our most valuable possesion on...it's a commodity we place little signifigance on...but one deserving our attention. That commodity is called TIME.


 One eternal truth we all know from the moment we are born is that TIME is not everlasting...

Taking five minutes out of your day for a friend...maybe to take five minutes to talk them out of driving home 'while impaired', maybe taking five minutes to drive them home??? Either or both?


Five minutes?? Can feel like forever...or it can feel like five years...depends on how long you are willing to WAIT to help out a friend...and it all depends on your PERSPECTIVE. It' a rather unpleasant situation to be in...sometimes you are better off just letting a drunk "rant and rave"...
 Recently I had to drive a 'drunk' home that I had considered a friend...and was "fought all the way" on it. I expected this person to be man enough to apologize or choose some decent words at the least. He  instead chose to "break b^lls" about it...Started yelling at me for taking his keys and started trying to push me around...we ended up in a 'tussle'...(wrestling) and I pinned him on the ground...trying to hold back 'beating some sense into him'...The words come to mind:  

"You should live everyday as if it was your last..."

...Only words I can think of that come to mind. "Not while I'm willing to take the keys..." but I hope 'his friends' will do the same "if there is a next time"... 


...I pause and reflect. At one time, at a very low point in my life, "I looked towards spiritual help". While reading an article termed "How firm a Foundation" I needed someone to talk to...So I decided to place a phone call to the author of that article...after an introduction his kind words to me were (percieved to me at the time...I'm just too busy...write me a letter) At the time I wasn't too much in a "good enough condition to write anything...my thoughts weren't too clear...there was something that just wasn't right"...But when a "man of the cloth asks you to do something...perhaps it's wise to do it, even if it's five years later"...If a preacher doesn't have five minutes to talk to someone "who feels or might be deeply in trouble"...



How LUCKY should you consider yourself that a friend thought enough to take the time to drive you home???



....Now my thoughts weren't too clear, as I said...I didn't know how to "Put things on paper...perhaps I still don't...." but time marches on. What was important then might not be so now....Just glad I made it through with little to no help...

 But as they say "G^d works in mysterious ways"...


At any rate...Back to the story at hand:

Deja Vu....

..Talking with friends...My how the roles do change....I thought the past was put to rest. Someone was lurking in the SHADOWS. As friends were talking and laughing...Someone was lurking going from one parking lot to the other... (almost to the point of STALKING...just can't leave well enough alone BUT in the SHADOWS....going from one parking lot to the other" WHY??? To be noticed? To drive a point across? (Depends on perspective...and perspective comes down to whose eye's you view things through).  


...A moment "frozen in my mind" was saying "Good night to friends..."





"....Sometimes all that is needed is a little time and space...Some Men need to be told some don't...depends on exactly what that man has on his mind...":


...A person's true judgement of charachter (not that I even remotely want to 'be a judge here') is measured in their words most often times...A man of HONOR would have no reservation of having his actions scrutinized... A person's actions speak louder than their words...




....I headed home for a good nights sleep. I passed by someone, (Jay Lan___) sitting alone in his truck...that looked like he needed someone to talk to..."I can't do this...not tonight...I need a good nights sleep...IVE GOT THINGS TO DO" Even in light of the current situation (recent events) I decided to pick up the phone and place a call to (one of two friends I was talking to) to say:


 "I just saw Jay"... 

....And then what comes next???? (Relax..'Everything is allright'...Or is it???)


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

YUP....So much for a quiet night "heading home"...

...It happened again...YUP came across another drunk driver that crashed. I can't even begin to count how many times I've been through this...Why ME???

"...All I wanted to do was talk with friends and then get a good nights sleep"

NOPE...Nothing doing.

(Look at the two pictures below..."Is the Driver fine...or is she???"...Look at it again..."She walked away" or did she???...The second photo showing the police officer could very well have easily been searching the car after a fatal accident... Where would the driver be then???)


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

"Go Home...That's all I want to do..."

So who has said that??

...I said that...that night. "I've had a good time with friends (keep the perspective in mind now)"

I got to "Laugh and have a good time with friends....Everything was right at that moment"

"Friends in the picture...Friends out of the picture"

"That Night I found out who my true friends are"


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

So "What Happened"???

Well for the driver of this particular car...

"When I got involved"... 

"I gotta find my phone" she kept saying to me "Miss...The phone is right there in your hand...Do me a favor and SIT DOWN" I said to her as I watched the blood dripping from cuts on her arms and face...

"I gotta find my phone"... "Miss forget about the phone (as I'm trying to talk to the DISPATCHER and let her know what's going on)... "Yeah...You wanna roll Woods Ambulance there is some PI INVOLVED but the driver is alert and somewhat co-herant"

"I gotta find my phone".... "Allright that's enough Miss SIT YOUR A^S down and shud-up"...

...As she continues to search for something in her car....for what I didn't know at the time...

"Allright MISS...you got two choices either a ride in the ambulance or..." ...At this point it get's interesting. What she was searching for????

 I think... a little searching and we all found out.

...Seems she was crawling around inside the car searching "For her phone" which sounded strange to me because she had her phone right there in her hand...she seemed to be reaching for her pocketbook... which it turns out...


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

...."YUP that's it...We're placing you under arrest for"

...Seems the reason she "Wanted her phone" was becuase her "Phone (pocketbook) contained a fairly substantial amount of pot"...

So what happened?

She (initially) refused the ambulance ride...and was subsequently placed under arrest....The one image that stuck out in my mind though????

...The last one below. In the condition she was in...

...The bottle was laying there on the ground.


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

..."Where were her friends when she needed them most???"

...Bet this has been said a few times.

"...Before you get behind the wheel...ask yourself if you were in a good enough condition to drive BEFORE you started drinking...Then ask yourself the same question AGAIN...Be your own best friend...use your head...if that doesn't work...whether it's a stranger or a friend DON"T ARGUE and don't make a big deal about it with those that care...DON'T BE STUPID...SHUDDUP' AND LISTEN FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE...And if need be don't wait to be asked to get involved when you know the right thing to do...

...Apply the same standard to all..If you really care about someone (as a friend)you will knock some sense into them.

"If someone SNAGS YOUR KEYS...wait until you are in the right frame of mind... before you expect to have them back"...then be big enough to either apologize or say "Thank You"...

"Why won't somebody just tell me what's going on.... Why won't anybody talk to me???"

......Maybe even both.


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## keyman512us (Oct 6, 2007)

....So this leads me to my next point "Where Keyman asks for advice from his friends???" 

(again hold off on comments until I finish the story)...

...Well I typed what I wanted to say and almost ran out of room to type...and the screen froze up.

...At any rate, I was at a party and ended up "babysiting" a drunk person (again)...Some words were exchanged, A fight almost broke out and at this point I'm trying to avoid a person that really needs to "grow up"...

...First I gotta figure out exactly how I'm going to approach this...so for now I'm gonna figure this one out for myself...



			
				Gibbonboy said:
			
		

> Hats off  to keyman for doing what is right, even if it is hard or a PITA. Were there more like you on the streets, I think people would be less inclined to take off after drinking.



Gibbon, B11...

..Thanks for the kind words...I'm still a little shaken up by the other night.


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

(I'm still a little shaken from everything that has happened)

....So in light of "Current Events"...There is a concept that I heard about "In the news" entitiled "If you had One Day"...If you think this thread is 'morbid' actually stop and think of "How Morbid the concept of One Day" actually is... but on that note:

..."I'll take a stab at it" so to speak. I guess I would do two things maybe three (at the same time)...Hey this is the age of multi tasking right???

...I would continue to 'Pause and Reflect' daily but I would also offer a kind word and perhaps say things that were neglected to be said....

....Years ago when I "had to get away from it all" I would drive to Hampton Beach New Hampshire to watch the ocean...often times I shouldn't have been driving to say the least...sober or not... I guess all the times when I wasn't sober I just wanted a friend to care enough to say "Just STOP...think about what you are doing". I wanted someone of the female persuasion (....'my twin' although there was a 'word inserted' subconciously without any recognition on my part...but it sums up how much of my actions could be percieved...despite best intentions)... only one person cared enough to say "D___ Hand over your car key NOW!"

...I never argued you're a sister to me....Thank you Mary R. aka 'Red'

'Back in high school days' I had a very good friend I loosely considered 'my best friend' some people thought 'we were twins' We acted alike, we partied, did 'runs to Hampton' with friends, hung out etc. People sometimes couldn't tell us apart. Getting bagged for skipping school 'during lunch hour' the dean of students would say his name asking if it was my name...thats how closely alike we were.

 My car was a 'red rocket ship' and moved...little more power than a 17 year old kid shoulda had. We 'ran past my house' to a long straight-away. "Wanna see the quarter mile"??? He looked puzzled "Err aghh Yeah Sure..." I positioned the car right on the center line "Do me a favor...put on your seatbelt kid..." and he did. "Hey ain't you gonna wear yours???" he asked.

 Didn't care as long as my 'brother' was safe... "if we crashed on takeoff' I didn't want to be around to deal with the consequences.


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

...So (That Night in 1991) instead of taking the fork in the road to the right (SR 202 & 2A) we "avoided something unpleasant"... Something 'told us' not to go down that road (Patriots Road). We always felt we had "Guardian Angels" I think it had to do with not being consumed in a fire...probably saved our lives and we knew it...something to be thankfull for.


Later the next day we found out there was a car crash... Two friends driving in a car somewhere on that road...seems they went off the road and...hit a tree.


Two lives lost in the blink...(getting hard to write now) but "had we not taken the longer way home...who really knows???"


...So I'm at a party (at a friends house...down on 'memory lane'...I just told you the name of the road...Paying attention YET?) And my thoughts are drifting off...don't know why...Something is telling me to get up and "Walk away...just get away from all these idiots"...I'm thinking to myself "I got no car...I didn't feel like driving here today....I knew there was a party later that night...I knew the person who invited me to the party has a policy "No drinking and driving...you leave your keys with her...but was that all I was thinking???" Then someone says "Take Jay's truck (to JBM) and go get some wood to throw into the fire...".....So I grab J__ La__ (who at this point...we'll call 'the drunk') And stuff him into the truck "Yeah Yeah Kid you just want someone to talk to Yeah Yeah, Why won't anybody talk to me....Yeah Yeah, you wanna go down memory lane... I don't need or want to know how to put this POS truck in four wheel drive truck...my last friend with the initials' J-L let me take his truck and his keys anytime I wanted  EITHER...besides we're only going up the paved road to get pallets...no four wheel drive necessary....you dumb drunk! I don't care who's truck it is... you're breaking my golden rule...'I'm behind the CONTROLS, no open container in the cockpit'.... Easy to speak words?? How easy would it have been for you to listen??? Did you ever hear a word I said the entire night??? (By the way you almost 'winged me with a pallet'...)

The wood get's unloaded...

  "Jay needs a pack of smokes" I wonder who that was that said that???

...Jay shouldn't have been on the road...he shouldn't have even been allowed as a passenger in the car distracting the driver...but someone said to go"...

What's your take on this one folks in the 'audience'...??? Think this person just wanted him to leave and quit bothering all the guests at the party??? Maybe the least favorite guest get's tasked with being a taxi driver twice??? (Here is where keyman is looking for your opinion folks)

Think everyone at the party was sick of 'the drunk' and the way he was acting??? Now keep in mind another 'drunk' wasn't even invited... matter of fact the party was kept 'secret' from him.

I asked the person that invited me to the party "Why don't you just turn your back on Jay?? Give him some time to think about it??" Fair enough question right?? Somebody needs to show him how to act...."Do you wanna see him in a pine box?? He's gettin' outta hand...everyone is walking away from him..."

"I just can't do that to Jay"...So this one has been nagging at my craw folks "Why??...You sure didn't have any problem turning your back on me and telling me where to go??? But hey I'm thankfull, probably saved my life". So I would ask this person "Why can't you??" Becuase you care about him too much to 'hurt him' (hey we're big boys little girl...whatever don't kill us makes us stronger)... Or is it because you can't "bear the pain to be without him"??? On the surface that troubles me 'little girl'... Cause' if you're the only one who can "get through to him"...he's ^$cked If he thinks of you "as his momma" you better start acting like one! Cause he's gonna need it...your 'little puppy dog' needs to grow up if he wants to run with "The big Dogs"....Like I always say "If you wanna run with the big dogs...don't................like a puppy"


Who's standing their ground folks???

...So off we go in the truck to get smokes... I ain't letting this person behind the wheel. He can';t even think straight enough to hold a conversation...yeah he'll make it to the store....sure.

...The way he has been acting lately??? Shouldn't be behind the wheel 'Sober'...

Now his POS truck is so scarry I don't want to be in the thing going down the road...Let alone be 'Driving it'... Under 25MPH at night, on a state road...yeah this behavior doesn't scream to a cop "Hey come get us" does it????

We get to the store..YUP two MSP cruisers right in the entrance to the store. "Time for a missed approach"...alternate place to land. So the whole time he's carrying on "Where are we going I don't have enough gas to get (as he's 'texting and talking' on his cell phone)...Nice "Drinking and dialing" ....

.....Glad I ain't getting those phone calls tommorow.


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## Gooserider (Oct 8, 2007)

Sounds like you did right to take care of the drunk, but the general situation sounds like you need to be wondering about who your friends are, and whether the next time they invite you to a party it would be better if you has a "prior engagement" elsewhere...

I have taken keys on occasion, but I've decided that I feel more comfortable in gatherings where it isn't necessary...

Gooserider


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

So at what point would you have said "Goodnight little boy" ..........WHACK!!

Honestly..."How many guy's would put up with this behavior...from a stranger??? Let alone someone you considered a friend??? 

"....Why won't anyone talk to me...Why won't anyone..(as he's texting and trying to talk on his phone)... " Keep in mind...You can't keep this kids attention when he's sober....try it drunk.

....But hey, somebody drove him home that's all that counts... or does someone 'need more than that' ???

Hey...I ain't 'snow white'....yeah there's been lotsa times I shoulda snagged someone's keys... But you know what... if I don't think you would hand your keys over willingly when your sober... Why should I bother when you are drunk... If you're that bad...I'll place an anonomous call to the cops instead...

 Hey 'little drunk' what did I do that was so wrong you had to act so immature that night at Dunkin's and "Cause a Scene"??? You couldn't have been "Man enough" to ask to speak about it 'without an audience'???? You just had to push things...You're lucky 'a certain somebody was standing there' because if not...(use your imagination for once 'sport') when you tried to push your way up off the gound from under me and that little 'tussle' of a wrestling match... back when I was 25...(frenchman's temper need I say more)..."

....How do you feel now that the whole world knows about it??? Think maybe that day you shoulda been more concerned about "What can I say or even do to make it right"??? Instead of trying to score a date with some convience store worker on her break???

It get's better though...

I drive him and his truck to my house to grab my truck...TO TAKE HIM BACK TO THE PARTY.. Now this isn't good enough though "I don't wanna leave my truck at your house I need it in the morning...blah blah blah"...

SO I go above and beyond AGAIN...Drive him and his truck across G-Vegas (with my mountain bike in the back) so I can get back to my house to get my truck to come pick him up to take him back to the party...Course I made sure to grab the ignition key before I handed him his keys back so he could at least go back into his house...

...Then he starts screaming at me halfway down the block (yeah his neighbors must have loved that little outburst...glad he was thinking of others at that point)...


So then the 'soap opera phone calls start'...everybody calls everybody else because Jay is all upset... "He needs someone to talk to...." Well where were his friends when he needed them most... didn't see anyone offer to drive him home...

 Nobody wanted to 'ruin their own night'??? ...They all didn't seem to mind "that he was gone from the party"... Nobody seemed to care enough to BE IN THE SAME CAR WITH HIM...

....They all went into high gear though to make sure his key got back to him though. C.C. I handed you his ignition key.... you remember my exact words to you??? 

"I'm giving you this ignition key... it's in your hand...whatever happens frrom here... You answer to Stephanie on it... it's no longer my responsibility to 'babysit Jay'..." and I meant it.

So what happened?? You gave the key back to Jay...What did he do...went for a ride...

...I am no longer 'his babysitter' I'll leave that task to his friends... (if he has any left).

...Jay feeling uncomfortable??? How's it feel bud?? Maybe we shoulda talked about it YOU walked AWAY from the 'FRIENDS TABLE' to choose instead:

Funny how the roles reverse sometimes... Let's compare five years ago...Shall we?????

Years ago...A friend asked another friend to "Stay Away" Just recently... A friend tried to "bring friends back together (even drove a friend home).."  In the past... a friend asked you to speak to someone he couldn't talk to... Why??? 

Because he was told to shut his mouth "When I tried talking to h__ about it...the second I mentioned your name... BANG

...You never got the message 'little drunk' you gotta be truthfull... all the lies lead up to one big 'train wreck'...

...How truthfull and how good of a friend have you been lately??? To yourself?? To others???

...On a night long ago I 'Stayed Away'... I asked you to talk to Stephanie for me because I couldn't... five years ago what was I saying to all her friends "It's all about her"....

How concerned have you been about her lately??? 

..."Tell you're tale Jay" Be honest. You're her best friend (supposedly). 

Are you that dumb to see if she is avoiding YOU of all people maybe there is a problem???

One day I told you to "JUST TAKE NOTICE" driving down the highway...then what happened that night?

Bad choices lead to a bad outcome. Just trying to get you to slow down and stop doing things to yourself and others... You really should take other peoples' feelings into account every once in awhile...

I made a decision long ago... I knew how she felt ABOUT YOU and tried to talk to YOU as a friend, as a brother, as an elder.... so perhaps you would "See the picture in a different light"...

I had strong feelings for her... The words I asked you to tell her I cannot remember...not important... I stayed away...I gave her time to sort her thoughts... I put my feelings aside for hers... So she could have a little room to breathe and think clearly...

...How much time and space were you giving her recently when you were jumping from parking lot to parking lot??? (Ask yourself)Whose thoughts were you more worried about???

But I'm sure you were worried about HER right??? Jealous of someone being able to laugh and have a good time with friends??? What's ammata' Jay... You want someone to "Just take notice of you....want someone to talk to???

Want someone to be your friend?? Try BEING one for a change...


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

So 'little drunk'...Do I have your attention yet??? So you wanna talk...Go talk with someone else... you seem to have no problem talking with anyone now to avoid a conversation a mutual friend wants us to have...

'Give and take'...???

 What's ammata' Jay??? "You can give it but not take it when it comes to criticism???"

Take??? You got no problem when it comes to the generousity of friends.... You can't give an apology???

Still not enough????

I think back to five years ago when you said "Everything was fine then when I mentioned your name...BANG!"

Well just recently... I grabbed the cell phone to call one of the two friends you have left to let them know "You looked like you needed someone to talk to.."

Didn't have time... there was an accident where a girl was hurt...

Was kinda eerie and I'm still shaken up by it...

Course it's truthfull... Perhaps more so than your words when asked "What Happened" and you said "Everything was fine then when I said your name...BANG!" ...Yeah Jay I'll always remember those words...thanks for telling me that...

Tell you what sport...I'm going to apologize for being stupid enough to try to talk sense into you over the years as your friend. Don't worry about trying to find words ... Just keep that in mind next time you "Try to manipulate Stephanie with your 'puppy dog eye's...If you haven't learned not to play around with a woman's heart by now...you never will....G______ "

Hard words Jay???..."My bark is worse than my bite"... Now Imagine it's Stephanie's voice...



"But you don't have time"... Okay The time I wasted talking to you over five years 'talking and walking down the tracks"...It's on the train kid... Don't worry 'train wreck'... You're behind the controls "of the crazy train"...



..."I'm joining the birds" before it's too late...



...My words to Stephanie (since I can never get one in edge-wise) someone I care about very deeply...I decided long ago to follow my own advice and 'move on with life'...between all the outside forces at work against it... "memory lane and burning bridges" I chose to share that sentiment from an article...becuase the words I just couldn't say... If J__ L____ is your best friend... And always will be...I don't need the head-aches attached...you seem to be doing just fine........ with those you consider your friends....if five years is only worth five minutes...then fifteen years has taken a heavy toll on you....even as a friend.


"Later Kid!" Maybe you shouldn't still be 'walking the tracks' if you can't hear so good...let alone be behind the controls.... (Joining' the birds') because the DISPATCHER seems a 'little stressed out'...at any rate "I don't wanna see how far down the tracks you get before there's a 'corn field meet'..."


....Who is saying what to who? Doesn't matter....not anymore.



Hopefully the words sink in so when you do find someone you trully care about......suffice to say there will be less painfull decisions for the both of you......


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Sounds like you did right to take care of the drunk, but the general situation sounds like you need to be wondering about who your friends are, and whether the next time they invite you to a party it would be better if you has a "prior engagement" elsewhere...
> 
> I have taken keys on occasion, but I've decided that I feel more comfortable in gatherings where it isn't necessary...
> 
> Gooserider



...Goose, Thanks for the kind words...I'm pretty much thinking that way.

I'm leaning towards "keeping a distance from 'friends' right now because...collectively if they were to stop and analyze how they are treating themselves and others around them...they might find they are their own worst enemies"...

I just hate to see "the young'ins" act like they "need a babysitter"...


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

Bottom Line Folks....

...If you see friends or family in trouble, take a couple minutes "to get involved"...

...A total stranger could be someone else's best friend or loved one.

Acting like still in High School???

Depends upon the perspective... A friend was a member of SADD....I was a member of SADD and "Peer Leader"...

...After high school life get's tough.

I can't say how many times I've 'dealt with drunks'....At parties, at my home or someone else's and the worst of all "at the side of the road"...

If YOUR TIME becomes a factor in having to help who first...ask yourself if they would do the same for you...and go from there.


The true costs of alcohol....? A happy child, 'streets of dreams', a yearly celebration...depends on one's perspective in life I guess...

"One's own Celebration? Or that of a friend... 

"Won't be any pleasant one this year......regardless of when it is observed"


"......................................................................................................Crosses.........................................................................."


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## Gooserider (Oct 8, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know, it can be a difficult problem sometimes...  I call such people "Toxic Friends" - those folks you like, perhaps want to help, but who seem to do nothing but go from one bad situation to another, and cause problems for you and anyone else you introduce them to.

The question is how far down their hole will you allow them to drag you?  When does "compassion fatigue" start to kick in, and make you wonder what ever made you want to help them in the first place, but at the same time you don't totally want to kick them out of your life, because what is the responsibility if they then do something really dumb and hurt themselves or others?

In one case, we have finally set limits on what we will and won't do for that person, and told him that we felt abused by his demands so these were the limits we were imposing...  We still see him, but we also keep a social distance - this hurts but we feel that we also need to protect ourselves.

Gooserider


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

Goose...
...Kind and inspirational words (I thank you)... I'm trying to inspire a friend to choose wisely.

"Seeing as you are a teacher" (and moderator) Any chance we could get this "Forward to perhaps SADD" to inspire the younger generation a bit???

..."How to inspire look towards your inner strength...for the hard road ahead in life"


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## Gooserider (Oct 8, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Goose...
> ...Kind and inspirational words (I thank you)... I'm trying to inspire a friend to choose wisely.
> 
> "Seeing as you are a teacher" (and moderator) Any chance we could get this "Forward to perhaps SADD" to inspire the younger generation a bit???
> ...



I don't know about SADD - it seems like they don't live up to their reputation - or maybe they do?  Seems from what I saw in the Tewksbury schools was that SADD was regarded as a "Drop-a-Dime" group, and it's members were mostly the "good kids" that didn't really need it, while the kids that did had no trust for them, and didn't want anything to do with the SADD students.  So when you talk to SADD, you are basically preaching to the choir.

I think the problem is the official intolerance towards "risky behaviour" these days...

All the programs of this sort are aimed at eliminating the behaviour totally - not controlling it and directing it safely.  It's "DON"T Drink!" not "Don't drink and be stupid"  It is DARE that still pushes "reefer madness" and so on.  This is ignoring reality - as far back as we can trace human history, people have been seeking to alter their mental state for religious or recreational reasons.

So we have programs like DARE, that lie to kids about the low risks of pot, which the kids figure out quickly are lies, because they KNOW fellow students that toke and pass...  So you've lied to us about pot, why should we believe you when you tell us how bad crack is?

The town one of my cousins grew up in many years ago had a system - there was a farmer that had a field down by a creek - every Saturday night the local kids would drive down with their collected (illegal) purchases of booze and other things...  Round about 10:00, the farmer would show up, share ONE beer, and collect all the car keys, then go off to bed.  The kids would party, probably more than they really should, but nobody did any driving till the farmer showed up the next morning and handed out the keys...  Did the parents know what was going on?  Probably...  The cops?  Certainly...  But a blind eye was carefully kept, because reality was acknowledged - that the kids in question WERE going to get drunk / stoned, but this method kept them off the streets.  There was also peer pressure to keep some level of control and not "mess up a good thing" by allowing someone to get seriously injured...

Today the farmer would be busted for "contributing to the delinquency..."

SADD tries to keep the kids from drinking entirely - ain't gonna happen!  They would IMHO be far more effective if instead they focused on if you must drink, do it responsibly and maybe even set up a few safe fields like that famer did...

Gooserider


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

My words to Stephanie???

...Gonna put this in RailRoad terms 'little girl'... Choo-Choo trains are "Shiny Objects" (kinda like men)...The DISPATCHER keeps the chaos to a minimum when there are a lot of trains.... 

...If the dispatcher runs across an "out of control train" the decision is made to switch it to a dead end to protect the others...

You got a 'train wreck on your hands' sooner or later... sooner or later it will have a cost if it doesn't already...


Be Strong...


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## keyman512us (Oct 8, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> keyman512us said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a good way to look at it....



			
				Gooserider said:
			
		

> The question is how far down their hole will you allow them to drag you?  When does "compassion fatigue" start to kick in, and make you wonder what ever made you want to help them in the first place, but at the same time you don't totally want to kick them out of your life, because what is the responsibility if they then do something really dumb and hurt themselves or others?



I don't want to get dragged down any further than I already have been...



			
				Gooserider said:
			
		

> In one case, we have finally set limits on what we will and won't do for that person, and told him that we felt abused by his demands so these were the limits we were imposing...  We still see him, but we also keep a social distance - this hurts but we feel that we also need to protect ourselves.
> 
> Gooserider



 I'm gonna "keep a distance"... From 'toxic friends'....

Thanks...


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