# Linksys wireless router question...



## keyman512us (Aug 15, 2007)

Hey all...

Well after some trials and tribulations I finally have the basics...  Got the Sony Vaio laptop ("recycle rescue" long story)...got it set for what I need it for. Been shopping/dealing with a "local computer guru" that decided to 'hang out his shingle and set up shop'... conviently enough...right 'next door' to my local small engine shop/chain supplier right over in my favorite section of town...the Union Square area.
ANYWAY... Got a LAN adapter (hardwired CAT 5 for $10) bought the wireless card adapter for $20 finally got it configured with a service pack upgrade... so I can do the WiFi thing if I choose too...then all I needed...was, you guessed it...a wireless router.

So low and behold I'm in one of the 'junk dollar type stores' (has the RI name before 'Job Lot')  and I see this linksys wireless router, still in the box in good shape...with no price tag. I open it up looks fine, has the AC adapter, instructions, and CD..everything except the CAT 5 patch cable...

Ohh no what am I gonna do...lol
 $1.50 tops for a patch cable? IF... I decide I'm too lazy of an electrician to grab one of the 1000 foot pull packs out of my stockroom and break out the RJ45plugs and crimp tool...lol

So I said WTF right? What could it hurt to inquire??? Go up to the service desk, girl checks the box, can't find it in the system...etc etc she call the manager and informs her some things are missing... OK..."She says I can mark it down 20%..."

I just got it all hooked up and configured...It's a Linksys Wireless B access point, WAP 11 Frame Version 2.5...strictly wireless- no additional ports. It is 128 encryption capable etc etc...

Last I looked (over at Wally World) the cheapest one they had was over like $50 bucks...SO..



Now my question is this (to all the 'techie gurus' here): Is there something about this particualar model that helped it find it's way to the dollar junk store...or did I 'do good'...

 Was it worth the $26 bucks and change with the sales tax???

Any comments would be appreciated...


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## Jags (Aug 15, 2007)

The "did I do good" question will be answered when the "is it working" question gets resolved.  The only problem I see for the "totally wireless" versions are the fact that you don't have a port to hook into to preconfigure the router.  Sometimes it can be a little bugger to figure out what they want, out of the box.

Before you even get started, find out (from the manual) if there is a way to reset this to factory defaults, and go from there.  You never know what happened to this thing that made it find its way to the dollar store.  Just my $.00002.


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 15, 2007)

I have one that's a few years old. Worked OK for awhile then something got out of whack. So I called Cisco tech support and after wasting about 10 minutes of my time getting nosy information about me and my system, informed me that it was no longer supported, but that I could shell out $30 for tech support, or try to configure it myself from their website. So that's what I tried. All I can say to that is: Good Luck, 'cause that's about your only hope.

So much for wireless computing at my house.

Thanks for nothing, Cisco. Fat chance I'll ever buy one of their products again.

Maybe there's a similar story behind yours, keyman.


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## keyman512us (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks for chiming in guys...

Jags, i probably should have stated it a little more clearly above... i'm typing this post on the laptop through that wireless router right now. To "get to this point"(of accomplishment), It was very frustrating to say the least. But it also has been educational. Figuring out what an SSID is, the MAC address how to make and use a passphrase then configure all the "gobble-d-gook" and then have it work was not exactly "user friendly at first" But so far so good (keeping fingers crossed in light of Eric's experience with wireless).

Eric, sorry to hear your wireless experience "went south" I hope I'm not headed down the same road...

Luckily, the installation CD that came with the router was (perhaps) an older more user friendly version. I stuck to a wired connection for long enough because it's not as simple to go wireless from a laymans' perspective. Having started with a regular wired router may have made things a little easier to get it done.

I don't know if I'm trully "ahead of the game", having already shelled out $30 for a regular router and now $26 and some change for the wireless but from what you guys seem to be telling me from your own experiences, maybe I lucked out...I dunno.

I've been pondering the pro's and con's of how I did...even though it's not a "multi point" router that can handle multiple cables it does offer some flexability to be able to run some Cat 5 to a central spot in the house... that way I can have one less thing in the office to knock off the desk. Looking at the "spaghetti" of wires already here...the more that can be eliminated the better... lol


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## keyman512us (Aug 15, 2007)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I have one that's a few years old. Worked OK for awhile then something got out of whack. So I called Cisco tech support and after wasting about 10 minutes of my time getting nosy information about me and my system, informed me that it was no longer supported, but that I could shell out $30 for tech support, or try to configure it myself from their website. So that's what I tried. All I can say to that is: Good Luck, 'cause that's about your only hope.
> 
> So much for wireless computing at my house.
> 
> ...



Eric, this might be a shot in the dark so to speak but from my own experience (and it sounds similiar to yours) maybe "it's the cart...not the horse".

I too got fed up at one point (trying to get the wireless notebook adapter to work) and took it to the guru's... the boys over at the computer store. They were a little puzzled too...but were helpfull.

What they told me was that a majority of the problems with wireless have to do with viruses and adware that are in your laptop itself that have a nasty habit of "shooting down" the drivers. They told me to remove/uninstall the drivers, run a couple anti-virus programs and do a service pack upgrade... then re-install the drivers. I'm happy to say it was good advice..because it worked.

I've paid a few hours for the education, and it has been frustrating... but in the end, "Mission Accomplished" 

Ain't 'Computin' great....lol


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## Jags (Aug 15, 2007)

keyman - glad to hear its up and running.  Once configured, most of those little routers will work for a long time and just catch dust (a term that some geeks use to show how little you have to mess with it).  You should be good to go now.


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## webbie (Aug 15, 2007)

Most of these routers should be able to be configured through a web browser (platform independent) instead of the CD that comes with them -I've done this with linksys, netgear and others. I have never had to add in MAC numbers, etc......

Usually just set it up to function as a DHCP server and everything should just work. 

Linksys is a good unit - some wireless routers (off-brand) can be has for as little as $20, but brand names usually are $40. up.

My first cable modem router was $350 and WAS NOT wireless! So EVERYTHING these days is a deal.


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## GVA (Aug 15, 2007)

I tried to set up a LAN here at home about 6 years ago and used the linksys router.
Had nothing but problems, The folks at Verizon told me that the router wouldn't work on my  DSL ......... OH JOY......
About 8 months ago since the kids got laptops and the wifey had wireless on hers already I bought a wireles router to try again.
I saw the linksys and others and then saw one in a box that said Verizon.........  It's actualy an action tec I got it and it worked great it also had 4 lan connections in the back too.  so I could use it on this old HP i'm typing on.
Now I got a PCMCIA card to wireless adapter.  
Any way good to hear it works for you.....  Now disable broadcast so your neighbors can't see the wireless connection out there and try to hack in....


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## jtp10181 (Aug 15, 2007)

The wireless "B" is old technology, everything is "G" now. That router you have is probably similar or the same one I have. It has some small issues but otherwise it works good. I am thinking about buying something a little nicer in the near future.

If you have any questions about networking you can ask me... I do have a degree for that ya know.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 16, 2007)

Already told the story last year about the non-working Belkin router. And the run around with Noorbash on the help line. And putting a 240 grain .44 mag hollow point through the thing.

Noorbash on the third call: "You shot the router."

BB: "Yep."

Noorbash: "Wow!"


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## begreen (Aug 16, 2007)

I've been working with the Linksys B wireless router (with 4 enet port) for about 4 years now. It's been very stable. In the early days ATTBI gave me grief for having ANY router between their cable modem and the computer because they wanted to see the MAC address of the computer. So I let them hook it up their way. Then as soon as they left, I entered the computer MAC address into the Linksys and voila, LAN and wireless in the home. Now Comcast doesn't give a hoot. 

I won't be going to G, probably will jump to wireless N in the next month. I'm looking at Buffalo brand, which is not quite as easy to configure, but is establishing a loyal following, especially for their G routers.


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## keyman512us (Aug 16, 2007)

Well I'm glad to hear the diverse comments, experiences and 'humorous' points of view...

I came close to what BB would do... luckily for the hardware I don't have a .44....lol But I did contemplate firing up the JD4 Diesel powered chipper and throwing a few electonic pieces through 

I'm a big fan of Cat 5 cable and have some running through the homestead. While it pales in comparison to Gooses' installation I'm pretty well wired. 

Goose has me beat hands down though... After the bee project he "showed me around the homestead a bit" and I was fairly impressed... Never thought I would see a 'homeowner install' to such 'Class A specs' as his. The patch panel is quite nice... but the two 2" interduct runs from the basement to the attic takes the cake:


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## Gooserider (Aug 17, 2007)

Note that some (not all) of the Linksys routers are Linux based, and can be reprogrammed to do all sorts of interesting stuff - I've heard of people turning them into mini webservers for instance.  I haven't gotten into that side of things because I haven't had a need, (and I don't trust wireless) but I've seen posts for this stuff on the web...  

Linux is getting very popular in the entire embedded market, but a lot of vendors won't admit they are using it (and have therefore gotten into legal difficulties, since the GPL requires you to provide the source, which means you have to say it's there...) Linksys was unusual in that they were more open about the software and how to reprogram their devices - of course if you bricked it that was your problem, but I think that's reasonable.

That router is not going to give the best security in the world, but it is probably fine for what it is.

A couple notes on my network install - I have a bit over 6,000 feet of wire in the walls - Every room in the house has multiple outlets for phone, cable TV and Ethernet, each with all outlets home-runned to a central patch panel.  I decided that I NEVER wanted to have to pull another peice of cable, so the system is way overbuilt, but I wanted it done right.

The reason for the innerduct is that our house is the home from hell when it comes to wiring - we have FIVE different attic spaces, I ended up with wire going through four of them - The design of the house is such that none of the walls line up with each other so after much exploration, the ONLY place I could find to run the wires up to the third floor was in the chase for the furnace / hot water heater stack.  Research showed that if I ran the cables loose, I would have to get a 12" clearance, which didn't exist.  But by using the innerduct, I was able to reduce the clearance to 6", which I BARELY had enough room for.

Otherwise, I basicly just wired everything else per the standards for a home networking system per the BiSci folks, with the exception that instead of using one of those little proprietary electrical cabinet lookalike hubs that have no expansion room and require proprietary over priced parts, I used commercial hardware and mounting systems - a 48 port Ethernet patch panel, a 300 pair 110 punchdown block for the phone stuff, and two 24 port keystone strips to make a home brew patch panel for the Cable TV wiring...  All this is mounted on a plywood backer panel with lots of room for auxilary hardware.

Gooserider


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## Mo Heat (Aug 24, 2007)

BB, I recently bought an Ativa Wireless 'G' Router/4-port switch from Office Max (or was it Office Depot?). It was only $15 after I finally received the rebate. It's a Belkin in disguise, so you've got me a little nervous. Luckily, after I realized I had forgotten to turn off MS Win2k Internet Connection Sharing, everything worked fine... except... I can't get it to work in switch-only mode (I don't have any wireless devices). But I do have a .44 mag handy if things really go south.  :smirk:

Dang Goose, that sounds nicer than some companies I've seen. The backbone of my "network" here is a single, 100 foot twisted pair run connecting the two opposite sides of the house. I think the cable is actually touching the HVAC vent in the joist space they share. Hopefully, there isn't enough heat in there to melt anything because I'm not sure I'd have the patience to run that cable again. 

I too prefer wires, but that might force me into a wireless mode here, although I suspect I'm potentially supplying network service to neighbors, or driver-byes, right now. I should probably tighten up the wireless security, but I hate messing with stuff when it's working. At least I have a password on it. Maybe I'll limit the MAC's if it doesn't disable the Ativa Router like configuring it to switching only mode.

Keyman, Glad to hear you are untethered. Do you know where I might get a decent RJ45 crimping tool, and how much should it cost? I will probably use it once and lose it. I saw a funky plastic one at Lowes for $19, but it didn't look worth the money, and another nicer one for $25, but I couldn't convince myself to spend that much to fix the one plug I have here that's intermittently loosing connectivity. Heck, I only paid $15 for the router!  :lol:


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## jjbaer (Aug 24, 2007)

jtp10181 said:
			
		

> The wireless "B" is old technology, everything is "G" now. That router you have is probably similar or the same one I have. It has some small issues but otherwise it works good. I am thinking about buying something a little nicer in the near future.
> 
> If you have any questions about networking you can ask me... I do have a degree for that ya know.



My sister had problems with her laptop while using "G".  While G is supposedly about 5 times faster than "B", what we found was that for some reason, there was much interference with "G" (don't know why because I think both work at 2.4 GHz) and the packet retransmit rate was so high as to drag the "G" throughput down to less than 10% of the speed of the "B".  So, we switched it over to "B" and it was a screamer!  For most small downloads and loading of typical webpages, the speed increase you see while using "G" is minimal because packet delays, retransmits, etc., while loading typical web pages are large compared to the increased speed of the G vs the B.


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## keyman512us (Aug 24, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Keyman, Glad to hear you are untethered. Do you know where I might get a decent RJ45 crimping tool, and how much should it cost? I will probably use it once and lose it. I saw a funky plastic one at Lowes for $19, but it didn't look worth the money, and another nicer one for $25, but I couldn't convince myself to spend that much to fix the one plug I have here that's intermittently loosing connectivity. Heck, I only paid $15 for the router!  :lol:



Mo...
The one I prefer is made by GB-Gardner Bender...P/N GMC-2000. I picked it up at a local (Lynde Hardware-True Value) hardware store. They sell the same one at the big box stores. The price tag was $20.49 so it sounds like the $19 version you had seen.

It has the easiest to follow diagram for 568(a) & (B) pairing on RJ45 Cabling.

In addition to being able to do RJ45 it also does the 11 & 14 smaller connectors. As a kit it also includes like 5 of each style connector...

The kit includes the really small ones to fix handset cords.

The plastic package has a slide out back and a punched card... so tack an 8 penny nail into a floor joist in the basement workshop...or the spot closest to where the wires come through  the basement and it will be easy to find. 


Fot the $ value... it's worth it.


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## Gooserider (Aug 24, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> BB, I recently bought an Ativa Wireless 'G' Router/4-port switch from Office Max (or was it Office Depot?). It was only $15 after I finally received the rebate. It's a Belkin in disguise, so you've got me a little nervous. Luckily, after I realized I had forgotten to turn off MS Win2k Internet Connection Sharing, everything worked fine... except... I can't get it to work in switch-only mode (I don't have any wireless devices). But I do have a .44 mag handy if things really go south.  :smirk:
> 
> Dang Goose, that sounds nicer than some companies I've seen. The backbone of my "network" here is a single, 100 foot twisted pair run connecting the two opposite sides of the house. I think the cable is actually touching the HVAC vent in the joist space they share. Hopefully, there isn't enough heat in there to melt anything because I'm not sure I'd have the patience to run that cable again.
> 
> ...



Well my preference is to use manufactured patch cables rather than trying to home make them.  If you shop around you can get them from reputable dealers for far less than the local computer store charges, especially if you purchase a bunch of them at the same time.  I got mine from Miles-Tek, purchased about 10 sets, each with one 2' cable to go from the patch panel to the router at the central node, and one longer cable (I got several different lengths from 8 to 15 feet) to go from the wall outlet to the connected device.  I think the most expensive cable was about $3.00.  At that price it isn't worth the hassle to make your own, plus you get better long term reliability from the ready made cables.

That said, my preference in crimp tools is a brand called EZ-crimp RJ45 made by Platinum Tools, it makes life MUCH easier.  It uses a special RJ-45 plug that has little holes in the front face so that you can actually poke the wires completely through the plug.  With a regular crimper you have to strip the cable jacket, then carefully arrange the wires in the right order, trim them to the same short length and stuff them into the solid front connector, then crimp while hoping that nothing moves on you.  If something does, cut off and repeat, hope you don't run out of wire before you get a good crimp...  With the EZ-crimp you strip the cable jacket a couple of inches, untwist the wires and poke them through the connector in the right order, double and triple check the sequence (easy) and then slide the connector down over the outer jacket and crimp.  The crimper has a little blade that trims the extra wires off the face, and you end up with a 100% perfect crimp, first time, every time.  The tool and connectors are a bit more expensive, but I've seen pro's claim that they more than save the extra cost since they are no longer having to chop off half the connectors they make...  IMHO it's the ultimate tool for doing RJ-45's, and they also put a nest for RJ-11's on the crimper as well.

My in the wall cabling terminates in a keystone style female jack at the wall outlets, and the patch panel at the central node, both of which are 110 punchdown items.  My jacks are from Leviton, purchased in bulk packs at HD - best price I could find for decent quality Cat 5e jacks anywhere.

When I did the cabling job, I was determined to do it RIGHT, as I never wanted to futz with it again, so all my stuff is pulled properly (although I do have one section that shares a joist space with an HVAC duct - shouldn't be a problem as the duct shouldn't go over 125* or so, and the cable is rated to about 250*) and terminated to proffessional standards.

Gooserider


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## Mo Heat (Aug 24, 2007)

Cast, your speed quandary is probably due to the much more complex protocol of 'g' (OFDM) vs  the simpler and more straight forward 'b' protocol (CSMA/CA). You are probably being overwhelmed with collisions, which is one of the unavoidable problems with wireless IP since it can't talk and listen at the same time like a duplex wire protocol can. 'b' transmist less data so you are probably getting less collisions. Both 'b' and 'g' are spec'd to a max of 40 feet indoors, and that's under ideal conditions. If you get some inductive gizmos or anything throwing off electrical fields, or blocking the signal (like walls) in between, then you can have serious through-put problems on all of them.

Keyman, Thanks for the reco.

Goose, I love that EZ connector! Unfortunately, the Platinum tool is $59! Which is a bit much for terminating one plug every year or two. Have you used those connectors before? I see I can buy both at HD. I'm wondering if I can get by without buying the high dollar tool and still use those connectors somehow?

I also agree about store-bought cables. This one was given to me by an IT dept I was working with. They terminated it themselves. Likely why it is failing, which is why we both prefer store-bought cables. It was hard to turn down a 100 footer ready to roll, for free. And now that I finally managed to get it run 100 feet through "no-man's land" inside a joist between my upstairs floor and my downstairs finished basement ceiling (no access), which was a two day affair that left me shouting at the top of my lungs and jerking it with all my might when I (for the umpteenth and next to last time) finally gave up and realized it wasn't going to happen and I tried to destroy it with all my might for some second rate satisfaction, I hate to even think of trying to run another one through there. BTW: Once I got Mrs. Mo Heat involved on one end of the thing and me on the other, pulling back and forth to finally free the thing loose from where it got "stuck on something in there", we had it run pretty quickly, and she was rolling her eyes at my display of "childish temper tantrums" the day before.  :red:  But still, I think we got lucky. God, I hate running cables!  I'm a software guy for gosh sakes!


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## Gooserider (Aug 25, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Cast, your speed quandary is probably due to the much more complex protocol of 'g' (OFDM) vs  the simpler and more straight forward 'b' protocol (CSMA/CA). You are probably being overwhelmed with collisions, which is one of the unavoidable problems with wireless IP since it can't talk and listen at the same time like a duplex wire protocol can. 'b' transmist less data so you are probably getting less collisions. Both 'b' and 'g' are spec'd to a max of 40 feet indoors, and that's under ideal conditions. If you get some inductive gizmos or anything throwing off electrical fields, or blocking the signal (like walls) in between, then you can have serious through-put problems on all of them.
> 
> Keyman, Thanks for the reco.
> 
> Goose, I love that EZ connector! Unfortunately, the Platinum tool is $59! Which is a bit much for terminating one plug every year or two. Have you used those connectors before? I see I can buy both at HD. I'm wondering if I can get by without buying the high dollar tool and still use those connectors somehow?



Depends on the crimp tool.  From what I've seen described in catalogs, it looks like there are two main designs of RJ-45's, those made by AMP and those made by everyone else - the Platinum EZ connectors supposedly will work with any of the NON-AMP style compatible crimpers.  The only thing is that you will then need to use a sharp knife to trim the extra wires off where they stick out the face of the connector, not a big deal.  I bought the Platinum tool because I wanted a ratchet style crimper, and the price difference between the Platinum crimper and the decent quality "Brand X" tool was negligible.  I haven't used it that often myself, actually I think I've made more phone cables with it than I have Ethernet cables - Of course I wired the house with RJ-45 jacks for both phone and ethernet - I ran Cat 5e for both, so why waste the extra two traces?  Now if I custom make a phone cable I put an RJ-45 on the wall end and RJ-11 on the phone end - works great.



> I also agree about store-bought cables. This one was given to me by an IT dept I was working with. They terminated it themselves. Likely why it is failing, which is why we both prefer store-bought cables. It was hard to turn down a 100 footer ready to roll, for free. And now that I finally managed to get it run 100 feet through "no-man's land" inside a joist between my upstairs floor and my downstairs finished basement ceiling (no access), which was a two day affair that left me shouting at the top of my lungs and jerking it with all my might when I (for the umpteenth and next to last time) finally gave up and realized it wasn't going to happen and I tried to destroy it with all my might for some second rate satisfaction, I hate to even think of trying to run another one through there. BTW: Once I got Mrs. Mo Heat involved on one end of the thing and me on the other, pulling back and forth to finally free the thing loose from where it got "stuck on something in there", we had it run pretty quickly, and she was rolling her eyes at my display of "childish temper tantrums" the day before.  :red:  But still, I think we got lucky. God, I hate running cables!  I'm a software guy for gosh sakes!



Well a few fine points that you may be getting caught by...  
1. You need to know what kind of cable you have, and what kind of connectors you are using.  There are two types of Cat 5e cable, solid and stranded.  You should NEVER put stranded in a wall, stranded is intended for use as patch cable only.  If you look at the specs, you will see that stranded has a MUCH shorter allowed maximum length.
2. There are different connector designs for stranded and solid cable, as well as a hybrid design that will work on both (The Platinum will work on both)  NEVER use a solid connector on stranded cable or vice versa - this implies that you shouldn't use connectors that came from unlabeled containers...
3. 110 punchdowns should only be used with solid cable, they will not give a reliable connection with stranded.
4. Watch the pull load - Cat 5 cable is normally only rated for about a 40lb maximum pull.  Pulling harder than that can disturb the cable construction and cause it to loose integrity.  (Sneaky trick, I pulled my RG-6 Quad cable for the cable TV wiring at the same time - that is rated for 90lbs pull, I tied my pull cord to the RG-6 and taped the Cat 5 wires to it, that way all the stress came on the coax that had the higher pull rating.

I actually found setting up the pulls was the most difficult part - often I would pull in stages from one place to an intermediate point, then pull from there to the next, etc.  My usual routine was to set up one or two pulls during the day and then when the GF got home, have her help with the pull to get the wires into the wall.  Then I would terminate both ends and setup the next pull on the following day.

I used nylon masons string for my pull cord - it's light but very strong, and low cost enough that I was willing to leave it in the walls in case I ever need to pull more stuff.  I don't anticipate doing so, but it was a trivial expense.

Gooserider


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## GVA (Aug 25, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> 4. Watch the pull load - Cat 5 cable is normally only rated for about a 40lb maximum pull.  Pulling harder than that can disturb the cable construction and cause it to loose integrity.  (Sneaky trick, I pulled my RG-6 Quad cable for the cable TV wiring at the same time - that is rated for 90lbs pull, I tied my pull cord to the RG-6 and taped the Cat 5 wires to it, that way all the stress came on the coax that had the higher pull rating.
> Gooserider


That works as long as the cat 5E doesn't catch on something and your tugging hard to get the whole shebang moving again.


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## Mo Heat (Aug 25, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> ... - the Platinum EZ connectors supposedly will work with any of the NON-AMP style compatible crimpers.  The only thing is that you will then need to use a sharp knife to trim the extra wires off where they stick out the face of the connector, not a big deal.



Alright then. I'll pick up a 10 pack of those cool plugs, or whatever the smallest count is at HD, pick up their $25 tool, or the one Keyman reco'd, and see if I can improve my situation.



> Well a few fine points that you may be getting caught by...
> 1. You need to know what kind of cable you have, and what kind of connectors you are using.  There are two types of Cat 5e cable, solid and stranded.  You should NEVER put stranded in a wall, stranded is intended for use as patch cable only.  If you look at the specs, you will see that stranded has a MUCH shorter allowed maximum length.
> 
> 2. There are different connector designs for stranded and solid cable, as well as a hybrid design that will work on both (The Platinum will work on both)  NEVER use a solid connector on stranded cable or vice versa - this implies that you shouldn't use connectors that came from unlabeled containers...
> 3. 110 punchdowns should only be used with solid cable, they will not give a reliable connection with stranded.



Damn, Goose! I studied that stuff and I didn't know that (of course, I never really used that info and things are being rapidly forgotten these days). Are you talking about solid and stranded twisted pair type cable? Or something else?

Good tips for cable pulling. I'll try them if I ever need them again.


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## Gooserider (Aug 25, 2007)

GVA said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True, which is why I put a great deal of duct tape on the nose of the bundle to make sure that I have a tapered package.  I also usually pulled my string back and forth a couple times to make sure the route was clean.  (I put a bit over twice as much string in as the length of the run, and tied each end down, so that I had a permanent pull string installed, attach the cable bundle to the center of the string.) - at any rate, I had no problems that way, either the entire bundle went through, or the entire bundle got stuck...



			
				Mo Heat said:
			
		

> Damn, Goose! I studied that stuff and I didn’t know that (of course, I never really used that info and things are being rapidly forgotten these days). Are you talking about solid and stranded twisted pair type cable? Or something else?
> 
> Good tips for cable pulling. I’ll try them if I ever need them again.



Exactly - Cat 5e (short for "Category 5 enhanced") is one of the standard grades of twisted pair cabling.  It is best useage to refer to TP cable by it's category, since "Twisted Pair" includes everything from 4 wire telco cable to 40 pair telco feeder cable, along with several grades of twisted pair Ethernet cable...  Plain Cat 5 is almost never seen these days, but was the original 10BaseT twisted pair ethernet cable, used instead of 10Base2 Coax.  It's officially the minimum spec for carrying ethernet, but only at 10 Megabits, though you might get 100 Mbits if you are lucky on a short haul with perfect installation techniques.  Cat 5e is a slightly improved cable, with tighter specs on how it has to be terminated.  It should do 100 Mbits w/o problems if installed correctly, and MIGHT get 1 Gigabit.  IMHO it's the best choice for home networks, and adequate for most businesses.  They also make a Cat 6 cable which is even better, but costs 50% more, and Cat 6 terminations cost almost double Cat 5e - The difference is not really worth it.  Telco cable is currently spec'd as Cat 3, but if doing a full network most advice is to pull Cat 5e for both phone and data as the cost difference is negligible and it saves having to buy an extra cable type.

Both Cat 5e and Cat 6 cable have solid and stranded wire versions, just like AC wiring, for the same types of applications.  The solid wire is better for data transmission, but has limited flexibility, and is intended for installation in walls and other "permanent" locations with minimal ongoing flexing.  Stranded is intended for use as patch cables, it has more flexibility and is intended for applications that have more movement potential.

Both Cat 5e and Cat 6 have 4 pairs, each pair being twisted at a different rate, which reduces cross talk.  Cat 3 wire has 3 pairs, and usually only comes in solid wire, as the flexible application is filled by "silver satin" phone cords.

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Aug 25, 2007)

The Cat 5 standard calls for certification up to 100 megabit. 5E certifies up to gigabit. I have a twenty-four run backbone of Cat 5 servicing the office, computers, servers and phones in this joint on three floors from the comm rack and switches in the basement. The data is running at 100 megabit. The fiber equipment is in the boxes awaiting me stopping chopping wood and playing with stoves long enough to pull the fiber to the rooms. The net will then be running POS (packet over SONET) at 155 megabit synchronous through Lucent routers on each floor until I upgrade to gigabit. Which will only be after TV et. al. lands here through FIOS. 

Sends email real good. Well, that and runs the business and makes disk to disk backups over the network easy.


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## Gooserider (Aug 25, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Goose the Cat 5 standard calls for certification up to 100 megabit. 5E certifies up to gigabit.



True in theory, real world experience shows that actual performance is closer to the numbers I mentioned.  One of the biggest differences is in the allowed fanout length between the connector and the end of the cable jacket where the wires aren't twisted.  5 allows a couple of inches, 5e allows about 1/2" - basically the minimum distance across the face of the punchdown area.  If you install 5 according to the 5e spec you will likely get 100 Mbit, as long as the run is fairly short.  If you want Gigabit performance out of 5e, you need to stay w/in the connection specs and have a really good cable run, no excessive bends, clearance from AC lines, etc but you don't have much margin for less than a perfect install.  Cat 6 gives more margin because of the more stringent cable spec.

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Aug 25, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

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One I am waiting to hear results from is my old place of employment. The place had no LANs or WAN when I arrived and we spent three years begging money (a small local government) and installing nets. Got a bunch done LAN and WAN wise and everybody up and running before I left. Since I left on less than amicable terms I neglected to tell anybody that shortly before departure I discovered that the General Services telephone guy who did the cabling had used Cat 3 jacks for everything because it saved money and he thought they would work fine. They did at ten megabit but just wait for what happens when they go 100 and up in the future. And they may NEVER figure out the problem. One that is on one end of every drop in the county.


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## keyman512us (Aug 26, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Exactly - Cat 5e (short for "Category 5 enhanced") is one of the standard grades of twisted pair cabling.  It is best useage to refer to TP cable by it's category, since "Twisted Pair" includes everything from 4 wire telco cable to 40 pair telco feeder cable, along with several grades of twisted pair Ethernet cable...  Plain Cat 5 is almost never seen these days, but was the original 10BaseT twisted pair ethernet cable, used instead of 10Base2 Coax.
> Gooserider



Now Goose... If you want to get techincal.Hold it right there. Cat 3 and up is TP (twisted pair). EIA/TIA Specs call it UTP...(Un-shielded twisted pair) and on and on... so the only way to judge a cable...is by the cover... and it's desisgnation will say something like "XYZ Cable Co... CAT5 UTP 22 AWG Tested to EIA/TIA 568 Standard"

On a lighter note...Which standard did you use for your terminations 568 (a) or 568(b) ????

MO... I would recommend the cheaper one because it has the simplest to follow diagram for pair arangement.

If I get really bored...I'll start a thread of "How to terminate RJ45 connectors easily" ...To make it easier...when you are at the box store... buy a pair of KLEIN red handle multi-strippers (invaluable...best thing since sliced bread for 'small wire'...trims CAT 5 nicely)


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## Gooserider (Aug 26, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

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 True, the jacket tells the story, and unless you have a few hundred K worth of dedicated test equipment, is the only thing you can rely on (in addition to the Vendor's rep) for quality.  Cat 3 is Twisted Pair, but AFAIK it was never really approved for use as Ethernet cable, even at 10 Mbit.  However this is why I suggested to Mo that he was better to specify the cable with a Cat number than just saying TP, since that gives him better control over what he got.



> On a lighter note...Which standard did you use for your terminations 568 (a) or 568(b) ????


  I'd have to look, but IIRC I used 568b (A is not reccomended)  Of course it doesn't make a bit of difference as long as you use the same on both ends of the cable since the only thing that changes between the two is the wire pair sequence and electrons are color blind...  However one thing I remember doing, and I think is a useful tactic is to grab a black Sharpie and color over the unused diagram on every punchdown connector - it reduces confusion when working at an odd angle.  I also put a peice of tape over the "wrong" diagram on my crimper for the same reason.



> MO... I would recommend the cheaper one because it has the simplest to follow diagram for pair arangement.


I would agree only if the cheap one is a "ratchet crimper".  I don't trust non ratchet crimpers to give a consistent and reliable crimp, whereas with a ratchet you KNOW you got it right because the tool wouldn't have released otherwise.  

RJ connectors aren't as bad as the solderless crimps for automotive type wire in terms of their crimping sensitivity, but I had one place I worked where the boss got into a debate with some of the employees about why we had to use the big bucks ratchet crimpers instead of the 4.99 K-mart special "five way crimping pliers"  The company had a mil-spec "pull testing" machine for checking crimped connectors and he challenged everyone to bring in their favorite cheap crimper and put it up against the machine.  All 10 test crimps made by the ratchet crimper passed, IIRC out of about 100 test crimps made with the pliers, ONE passed - this was using the same wire, same crimp fittings, only variable was the tool...  We didn't hear any further suggestions of using the pliers.



> If I get really bored...I'll start a thread of "How to terminate RJ45 connectors easily" ...To make it easier...when you are at the box store... buy a pair of KLEIN red handle multi-strippers (invaluable...best thing since sliced bread for 'small wire'...trims CAT 5 nicely)


Well I used one of the rotary jacket cutters intended to remove Cat 5 jackets to get the jacket off, and then either use the trim blade on my 110 punchdown tool, or the Ez-Crimp crimpers - never have to trim the Cat 5 as the termination process does it for me.

Gooserider


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## Mo Heat (Aug 27, 2007)

I've had a  brain storm. And since it's my first of the year, I'm naming it Alvin. It's definitely revolving around Cat 5.  Instead of putting a male RJ45 terminator on the end of the cable that's intermittently having trouble, I'm going to try and install one of those cute little female wall receptacles and have a non-monkey-rigged setup. This assumes I'll be able to get the cable into the wall from down below, which may be a big assumption. I'm told those wall terminators have the same type setup as the EZ plugs. They may even be EZ brand (or whatever the brand name is). Then I'll use a patch cord like most of the rest of the world instead of my current monkey-rigged cable sticking up through the floor and continuing on to the computer. Alvin is predicted to hit the bedroom wall sometime in the next week or two (new great niece is rearranging schedules and demanding periodic evacuations). I'll let you know how it goes.

I appreciate all the first hand experience and info although I had hoped that one day I'd find at least one thing I knew better than everyone else on this web site. Holz Hausen building may be my last chance. I'm still holding out some hope since everyone else seems to be abandoning that style of wood stacking. 

Goose, you've convinced me that a ratchet crimper is better, but I'll have to talk myself into shelling out some serious cash for a tool I'll probably get very little actual use from. The jury is still out. Maybe my female wall plate termination will get me off the tool hook.

BB, you gunna terminate those fiber runs yourself? If so, man, now I'm really impressed! Hee, hee! That county office is going to have some fun. But, uh, aren't they working on your tax dollars?  hh: 

Keyman, I guess you got your EE before going into the key business?  I've got a pair of red handled strippers, but I can't find the name Klein on them anywhere so they are probably el-cheapo made. Hopefully, they'll get the job done. IIRC, I'v heard it's a pretty tall order to properly terminate shielded twisted pair (henceforth Cat5, etc.) and get it to work. That's maybe why I've never heard of anyone using it.

Man, lots of good info being transmitted around here...


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## Gooserider (Aug 28, 2007)

That sounds like a good idea to go with a female plug termination and patch cable setup.  Getting into the walls is probably the toughest part, but isn't that bad.  

When I was installing my setup I used the orange (code says low voltage stuff is supposed to be orange, as opposed to blue for AC), open back "old work" boxes.  HD and Lowes both carry them.  You cut the hole in the wall, plug the box in and tighten the two screws that swing out tabs to lock the box into the wall.  As long as you don't make the hole to big they work great.  What I found was that it worked best for me if I cut the hole, then ran my pull strings, and pulled the wire before installing the box - it gave a bit easier access to the wall cavity to do it that way.  I anchored my pull strings by drilling a small hole in one of the back edges of the box and tieing the string to the box that way.  Which way are you trying to run the wire?  Down from the attic or up from the basement? - I had to go both ways in our house, the first floor jacks I got at from the basement, the 2nd floor I got by going up to the attic and back down, each direction had it's own kinds of pain...  When coming down from above, watch out for fireblocks in the wall, they can keep you from reaching a jack installed at the usual outlet height unless you can drill through them (a 6' wall bit will work, but is a real pita...)

If trying to find your pull string when dropping down, tie a steel nut to the end of the string, then reach in with a magnetic probe - works really nice.

As to terminating the female jacks, I haven't used them, but I've heard of several designs of "tool-less" jacks, don't know how well they work.  I used some that used a 110 punchdown tool, and those were pretty good.  I don't know about the singles, but the ten jack bulk packs I was getting at HD came with a little manual tool that I've been told works, but never tried since I had purchased a real punchdown tool already.  

A minor note on STP vs. UTP cable - you can get twisted pair ethernet cable in both shielded (STP) and unshielded (UTP) versions.  They use the same Category numbers and electrical specs aside from the presence or absence of a shield.  In the US, common useage is UTP cable, in other parts of the world, STP is more common, I'm not really sure why.  However from a practical standpoint, unless you are in a very electrically "noisy" environment (such as a factory floor) there is no real advantage to STP, and it is considerably more expensive for the cable, terminations, and all the stuff they plug into.  In particular, you should NEVER mix STP cables and UTP termination hardware.  An STP termination has an extra connection for the shield that wraps around the male plug and contacts a matching strip in the female jack.  The shield connection in the female jack MUST be connected to a signal ground in order to dissipate any interference that is present in the shield - if it isn't grounded on both ends, the shield will actually induce signal noise into the cable and give a noisier end result than UTP would.  If you use UTP cables with STP hardware the extra unused connections won't cause any problems, but if you try using STP cables with UTP hardware the ungrounded shield will cause no end of grief - thus my advice would be to avoid STP completely.

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Aug 28, 2007)

Not gonna terminate'em myself Mo. Corning did it for me. One of the disasters of the telco implosion had the pre-connectorized, kevlar re-inforced Corning Gold MIC patch cables all custom made for their backbone in their new headquarters building sitting in the warehouse when they went belly up. Eight footers up to 320 footers. Bought the entire backbone for the price of a pallet of Natural Light. Sold enough of it three years ago to pay for those wood stoves and liners last year and a few house payments.

I only have 18.6 miles of it left.

In fact the plastic on my wood piles this year is tied down with six hundred dollar apiece fiber patch cords. Rain was coming and I was out of rope.


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## Mike Wilson (Aug 28, 2007)

You may want to check to see if you have a Luddite neighbor like myself, who went out and bought one of these, and is just having fun looking through the windows at night watching you repeatedly bash your head against the sheetrock whilst trying to figure out why your new WiFi router isn't working...

-- Mike


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## Mo Heat (Aug 28, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> ... Which way are you trying to run the wire?  Down from the attic or up from the basement?



Up from the basement, on an outside wall. See photo below. I call it, "Sausage, Legislation, and Mo's wiring." I should probably be embarrassed, but after hearing BB's story of tying his tarps down with fiber cables, I hold my head high.  8-/  BTW BB, I don't believe you. That silicon outer sheath wouldn't hold crap... uh... or would it?




> ...unless you can drill through them (a 6' wall bit will work, but is a real pita...)



Uhhhh, don't think I have one of those laying around...  8-/ 

It looks like I might be in luck. That's how I start out thinking about all my projects, which is what allows me to start them in the first place. But that little cable you can barely see, just above the blue one, actually goes to the outside telco box. So maybe I can drill a hole right below where I'll wall-mount the female, RJ45 terminator and wall plate. Could it be that easy? I doubt it.


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## Gooserider (Aug 28, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

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Actually Mo, fiber cables rate pretty high strength - the fiber itself is fragile, but there is a "strength member" in the cable construction that gives it at least as much strength as a good extension cord.  I'd say a fiber cable would be about as strong as that cheap polypropelyne utility rope you can get at the local hardware store.  Of course you're violating all the bend radius limits when you tie knots in it, so I wouldn't want to use it for data transmision afterwards, but...

To get back to your problem - I'd avoid the outside wall if possible, it is very hard to do a good draft seal and insulation job on a low voltage setup, among other things the insulation causes problems w/ trying to maintain your bend radii and trying to cut the box in is almost certainly going to mess up the insulation in that wall cavity.  When I was doing the layout in our house, I went through a great deal of effort to minimize my outside wall nodes - I ended up with just two out of about 20.  OTOH coming up from the bottom should make it easier to avoid dealing with any fireblocking.  



> > ...unless you can drill through them (a 6' wall bit will work, but is a real pita...)
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You might get lucky - one of the tricks I used a few times was to cut the bottom wire off a coat hanger and chuck it in my electric drill, then use that extra long 'bit' as a probe drill to go through near where I thought I wanted to drill, then look for the wire on the other side.  The resulting holes are small enough to easily patch or ignore, the non-sharp nature of the bit made it less likely to puncture something problematic like a pipe and it gives you a nice definite "landmark" to take measurements from.  (I've always found the biggest challenge in cases like this is to figure out the corresponding points on different floors or opposite sides of a wall.)  Give that a try and see if it gets you where you want to be...

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Aug 28, 2007)

"BTW BB, I don’t believe you. That silicon outer sheath wouldn’t hold crap… uh… or would it? "

Two PVC jacketed fibers covered with PVC outer sheath and Aramid strength cord sure seems strong enough when I pull them suckers down tight on the plastic on the pile. High wind night before last and nothing moved.

I wouldn't advise them for guy wires for a radio tower or for rappelling.


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Mo Heat said:
			
		

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Mo... "Fishing" walls is fairly easy just a few tricks to keep in mind.

Using the coat hanger idea goose suggested as a "feeler bit" mkaes it easy. Personally, I use "insulation support hangers" (the stiff steel 'wires' that hold insulation between floor joists cut at a 45degree angle) take a look in your basement...they are probably holding up your insulation.  Put the 45 on the end, grab a cordless drill and sink it through the floor right up against the wall where you want to drill...makes lif easy.

Speaking of making life easy...renting or borrowing a good drill and bit will make all the difference in the world. Nothing more "friendly" than a nice Milwaukee right angle drill with a 6" electricians 'ship auger bit' to do the job...


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Course for those more daring souls...my preffered "implement of wood surgery" the Milwaukee I affectionately refer to as the "Widowmaker" with a 1-1/8" ship auger bit...


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