# Can you Canoo?



## begreen (Mar 14, 2021)

The EV truck space gets more interesting. This is a very flexible truck with some obvious homage to the VW Transporter of yore. 









						2023 Canoo Pickup First Look: Fauxward Control
					

Wonderfully retro Microbus pickup style rides an electric skateboard chassis.




					www.motortrend.com


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## stoveliker (Mar 14, 2021)

Ugh. Somehow, cars do have a certain identity to me based on their looks. And this one is schizophrenic to me. Its appearance does not match its purpose in my opinion. Why not make an electric truck that looks like hard work. Why do electric cars have to look spacey...?

I'd never ever consider this one or that truck Tesla has been advertising.

I'm fine with a chevy volt or so; looks match purpose (just a car). But this is a no go for me....


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## begreen (Mar 14, 2021)

Time will tell about its durability. I do like the incredible flexibility they have built into the pickup bed. It has amazingly thoughtful options for configuration. I like having a frunk too.


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## ABMax24 (Mar 15, 2021)

I like that designers are thinking outside the box, but this one sure seems gimmicky. It's great that everything folds down, and out or opens a dozen different ways, but what happens to those mechanisms in the cold, or mud, or dust? Sure seems like a lot of extra parts to fail.

Maybe they should send one to Canada for testing? We'll put it through it's paces, throw a welding skid in the back and send it out pipelining for a winter, that'll find the flaws for sure, my guess is it doesn't last a week.

I really wish these electric car makers would just try to replace existing vehicle platforms with electrics. If they want to make a difference in emissions, make a copy cat electric F150 or F350 with no bells and whistles, and a 500 mile range at a comparable price point. That would be a vehicle that large fleet operators would buy.


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## stoveliker (Mar 15, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I really wish these electric car makers would just try to replace existing vehicle platforms with electrics. If they want to make a difference in emissions, make a copy cat electric F150 or F350 with no bells and whistles, and a 500 mile range at a comparable price point. That would be a vehicle that large fleet operators would buy.



Precisely!


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## SpaceBus (Mar 15, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> Ugh. Somehow, cars do have a certain identity to me based on their looks. And this one is schizophrenic to me. Its appearance does not match its purpose in my opinion. Why not make an electric truck that looks like hard work. Why do electric cars have to look spacey...?
> 
> I'd never ever consider this one or that truck Tesla has been advertising.
> 
> I'm fine with a chevy volt or so; looks match purpose (just a car). But this is a no go for me....


What do you mean? It's shorter than a traditional pickup, has more bed length, and more cab volume. Looks like a case of function over form if I ever saw one. Really it looks a lot like an old Jeep Forward Control.


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## stoveliker (Mar 15, 2021)

The smooth plastic exterior. The aesthetics have been purely designed for some space-y look. Why?

Also, from a marketing perspective, does that appeal to the average truck-needing person?


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## SpaceBus (Mar 15, 2021)

stoveliker said:


> The smooth plastic exterior. The aesthetics have been purely designed for some space-y look. Why?
> 
> Also, from a marketing perspective, does that appeal to the average truck-needing person?


To the average person that *needs* a truck, it marks a massive step forward in usability compared to a truck with 8' of nose hanging off the front. Have you ever driven a cab-over truck? F-150's and other trucks are smooth with many composites and exotic materials and look positively space age compared to a Ford Model A truck. Those that want a giant macho status symbol will have to look elsewhere. The outlets, storage space for tools, and the fold down sides would be welcome truck add ons for many contractors and job site laborers. Heck, the big domestic truck makers already have most of those features included on trucks that already exist. 

Cab over trucks with flat fronts are nothing new or really that uncommon.




Here's a really futuristic one, all the way from 1946!


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## stoveliker (Mar 15, 2021)

Yes, I have used trucks. Many times. I don't own one because I can't justify that versus renting or borrowing one.
Yes, I am well familiar with cab over trucks as they are the only ones around where I came from.

I note that your examples are all metal, rather than having the outside be predominantly plastic - and that is important for the front end too.

And yes, indeed the conventional trucks have the amenities too - making my point that it does not make sense to go with a design that is susceptible to breakage rather than suffering from dents in usage.

I do note that I am a fervent fan of energy efficiency, so electric trucks are fantastic.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 15, 2021)

I don't understand what's wrong with composite body panels. They are lighter, easier to replace, and longer lasting than metals. Perhaps there is a perception of fragility, but generally speaking all the crumple zones and high hit areas on most cars are now composite or aluminum (IE bumpers, hoods, trunks, beds, etc.)


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## sloeffle (Mar 15, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I really wish these electric car makers would just try to replace existing vehicle platforms with electrics. If they want to make a difference in emissions, make a copy cat electric F150 or F350 with no bells and whistles, and a 500 mile range at a comparable price point. That would be a vehicle that large fleet operators would buy.


I couldn't agree with you more.  It looks like Magna is thinking the same thing.









						Magna's New eBeam Axle Makes It Easy to Electrify Pickup Trucks, Light Duty Vehicles
					

Whether it's for full EV or hybrid, the eBeam is intended to transition vans and pickups faster.




					www.thedrive.com


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## ABMax24 (Mar 15, 2021)

The long nose on traditional pickups plays a role in other items than just taking up space. Crumple zone being a large one for safety, the extra wheel base also adds a lot to the stability of the vehicle, particularly when towing on less than optimal road surfaces.

This Canoo prototype is nothing but a "green" status symbol aimed at wealthy suburbanites, those that feel they need a special purpose vehicle to go on an "adventure" once or twice in the vehicles life. If Canoo truly believes this vehicle will appeal to contractors and other tradespeople that work out of their trucks, they should probably fire their market research team, very few will be able to afford such a vehicle, even if they wanted to purchase it.

You won't catch me dead in a cabover truck, because that's literally what would happen in a frontal collision at any significant rate of speed.


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## stoveliker (Mar 15, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> The long nose on traditional pickups plays a role in other items than just taking up space. Crumple zone being a large one for safety, the extra wheel base also adds a lot to the stability of the vehicle, particularly when towing on less than optimal road surfaces.
> 
> This Canoo prototype is nothing but a "green" status symbol aimed at wealthy suburbanites, those that feel they need a special purpose vehicle to go on an "adventure" once or twice in the vehicles life. If Canoo truly believes this vehicle will appeal to contractors and other tradespeople that work out of their trucks, they should probably fire their market research team, very few will be able to afford such a vehicle, even if they wanted to purchase it.
> 
> You won't catch me dead in a cabover truck, because that's literally what would happen in a frontal collision at any significant rate of speed.



I agree with all but the latter; Europe (almost) only has cab over trucks and the fatality rate is not much higher.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 15, 2021)

Trucks don't have a long nose for crumple zones, they have it because it's the easiest way to build them. Cabovers are inherently more complex and expensive to make. This Canoo truck clearly has a few feet between the driver and the front of the vehicle. Furthermore the long wheelbase is a poor reason for a cab rear truck. Plenty of cab forward trucks have enough wheel base for easy towing, and pretty much all of Europe favors cabovers and stuff still gets delivered.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 15, 2021)

I agree that this truck is going to be an expensive toy for most, the composite body, handy fold down sections (common in trucks sold outside of the US) on the bed, outlets, and shape are hardly reasons to hate it.


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## ABMax24 (Mar 15, 2021)

Cost and complexity of a cabover go against an operators bottom line, if a cab over is more expensive to purchase or operate what will they choose?

As for semis, in Europe maximum lengths are rated on overall length, not trailer length like in the US. Shorter truck = more cargo = more profit. A formula that doesn't apply in the US or Canada.

Since when are a vehicles looks not a reason to hate it? That is the basis of entire US automotive industry, an ugly car doesn't sell, a feminine looking car only sells to females. There are very few successful vehicle models in the US that aren't also aesthetically pleasing.

I get why Canoo chose this design, it's platform is a van or truck with little more than a few body panel changes, smart move on simplifying the design and manufacturing process. At the end of the day the consumer will decide, and new models are coming forward all the time, soon it won't be a choice of an ugly electric vs an aesthetically pleasing ICE model. My guess is Rivian sells more R1T models than Canoo will of this model.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 15, 2021)

Yep, gotta make sure your truck looks as manly as your ego! As if an inanimate object could be masculine or feminine, which are artificial constructs. Female eagles are larger than males, therefor large trucks are actually feminine, since we are discussing arbitrary features as being masculine and feminine.


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## ABMax24 (Mar 15, 2021)

You're being a child. Vehicles are sold based on appearance, don't like it, that's fine. Automotive manufacturers spend billions to make their products look attractive, pretty sure someone in management approves that cost as a necessity of automotive design, because image sells.


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## begreen (Mar 15, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I like that designers are thinking outside the box, but this one sure seems gimmicky. It's great that everything folds down, and out or opens a dozen different ways, but what happens to those mechanisms in the cold, or mud, or dust? Sure seems like a lot of extra parts to fail.


Some of these features like the drop-down sides are common on foreign pickups. Extended beds too. It's just nice to see them all come together this way.
The other reality is that a major portion of pickup trucks are not used for work in the real sense. If this platform is a good off-roader then that will drive ownership for campers, etc.








						You Don't Need A Full-Size Pickup Truck, You Need a Cowboy Costume
					

The full-size pickup truck has become America's best-selling vehicle by a country mile. But most Silverado, Ram, and F-Series buyers would be better served with a cheaper means of role-playing.




					www.thedrive.com
				




I doubt I'd get one, but it would be fun to rent for a weekend.


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## CombatChris (Mar 16, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I really wish these electric car makers would just try to replace existing vehicle platforms with electrics. If they want to make a difference in emissions, make a copy cat electric F150 or F350 with no bells and whistles, and a 500 mile range at a comparable price point. That would be a vehicle that large fleet operators would buy.



They would if they could but they can't. For SO many different reasons. If you stuck with traditional truck aero you'll need a battery pack so huge you'll have no room for payload if you want to get that 500 mile range. Like, a ~300kwh pack. No one has kwh pricing like Tesla, and even they're still above $100 per kwh. If Ford and GM are LUCKY they might be looking at $150 per but I bet it's more like $175 per. That means $52,500 just for your battery pack. And the truck will be so heavy you'll only have less than 1000lbs left for cargo or tongue weight.

Which is why Tesla is doing it different. No frame + body, the body IS the frame. It's an exoskeleton, which is very much NOT a unibody. They're going all in on both aerodynamics AND cost to manufacture by just using folded stainless steel in a simple and STRONG shape. 

There's a reason no one can meet Tesla's specs or price. It's because Tesla went all in 100% on function over form.

I'll let you all know how well my Tri-Motor Cybertruck drives and hauls firewood when I get it in ~2023.


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## jetsam (Mar 16, 2021)

At least they didn't start a company with Tesla's first name, announce that they were making electric trucks, rake in hundreds of millions, announce that the only thing they would be actually contributing to said truck would be the logo, rake in MORE investments, then have the company that was supposed to design and build the trucks for you announce that noooo, that wasn't happening.

Because that would be ridiculous.  Especially if a non-running electric tractor trailer was somehow used to make a video demoing technology that you didn't have and weren't working on.

In less ridiculous electric truck news, read about Canoo!  (No real specs yet.)


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## ABMax24 (Mar 16, 2021)

CombatChris said:


> They would if they could but they can't. For SO many different reasons. If you stuck with traditional truck aero you'll need a battery pack so huge you'll have no room for payload if you want to get that 500 mile range. Like, a ~300kwh pack. No one has kwh pricing like Tesla, and even they're still above $100 per kwh. If Ford and GM are LUCKY they might be looking at $150 per but I bet it's more like $175 per. That means $52,500 just for your battery pack. And the truck will be so heavy you'll only have less than 1000lbs left for cargo or tongue weight.
> 
> Which is why Tesla is doing it different. No frame + body, the body IS the frame. It's an exoskeleton, which is very much NOT a unibody. They're going all in on both aerodynamics AND cost to manufacture by just using folded stainless steel in a simple and STRONG shape.
> 
> ...



Aerodynamics go out the window when someone uses a truck as a truck. What happens when that truck pulls a fifth wheel, hauls sleds on a sled-deck, tows a boat, tows a SxS, hauls firewood? These are all tasks my truck must do, and an electric must be capable of for me to switch, and given the box design of the Cybertruck it won't complete the first 2 items on my list. 

The Cybertruck tri-motor is supposed to come with a 200kwh pack, 300kwh isn't that much more. If weight is an issue move it up to the 3/4 or 1 ton class. I get that batteries are expensive, but I'm looking at $80+k if I wanted to replace my truck with a new diesel anyway, if I can save fuel costs in favour of cheaper electricity $100k is an easy choice. Considering the bulk of the cost of a diesel pickup is in the powertrain, I'm not sure an electric would be prohibitively expensive. Finding enough Li-Ion cells to fill those packs would be another matter though.


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## CombatChris (Mar 17, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> What happens when that truck pulls a fifth wheel, hauls sleds on a sled-deck, tows a boat, tows a SxS, hauls firewood? These are all tasks my truck must do, and an electric must be capable of for me to switch, and given the box design of the Cybertruck it won't complete the first 2 items on my list.
> 
> The Cybertruck tri-motor is supposed to come with a 200kwh pack, 300kwh isn't that much more. If weight is an issue move it up to the 3/4 or 1 ton class. I get that batteries are expensive, but I'm looking at $80+k if I wanted to replace my truck with a new diesel anyway, if I can save fuel costs in favour of cheaper electricity $100k is an easy choice.



I guess this one truck (or any currently prototype trucks) doesn't fit your use cases. In the same way someone using a 4-car carrier 5th wheel won't be able to get by with an F150. But the Cybertruck still fits many use cases the same way an F150 does.

Yes, 180-200kwh is expected for the CT. And the Electric Hummer's ~350 mile range will be accomplished with 200-220kwh (for ~$120k iirc). 300kwh or ~50% more is massive. At some point you run out of space to put them unless you're a much MUCH larger vehicle. Like, crew-cab + long bed config.

I suspect, within the next 5 years, we'll see Tesla or someone else try for the 3/4 and 1-Ton market. Dualies, 5th wheel, and all. But just because they're not in that market now doesn't mean there isn't a huge market for them presently in 1/2 ton.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2021)

CombatChris said:


> They would if they could but they can't. For SO many different reasons. If you stuck with traditional truck aero you'll need a battery pack so huge you'll have no room for payload if you want to get that 500 mile range. Like, a ~300kwh pack. No one has kwh pricing like Tesla, and even they're still above $100 per kwh. If Ford and GM are LUCKY they might be looking at $150 per but I bet it's more like $175 per. That means $52,500 just for your battery pack. And the truck will be so heavy you'll only have less than 1000lbs left for cargo or tongue weight.
> 
> Which is why Tesla is doing it different. No frame + body, the body IS the frame. It's an exoskeleton, which is very much NOT a unibody. They're going all in on both aerodynamics AND cost to manufacture by just using folded stainless steel in a simple and STRONG shape.
> 
> ...



Saying it's not a unibody vehicle is pure semantics. The body is structural, just like every unibody car. The stainless steel bodywork is kind of a head scratcher to me. Aluminum or composite would be lighter and more functional, but probably brings the cost too high.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 17, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Aerodynamics go out the window when someone uses a truck as a truck. What happens when that truck pulls a fifth wheel, hauls sleds on a sled-deck, tows a boat, tows a SxS, hauls firewood? These are all tasks my truck must do, and an electric must be capable of for me to switch, and given the box design of the Cybertruck it won't complete the first 2 items on my list.
> 
> The Cybertruck tri-motor is supposed to come with a 200kwh pack, 300kwh isn't that much more. If weight is an issue move it up to the 3/4 or 1 ton class. I get that batteries are expensive, but I'm looking at $80+k if I wanted to replace my truck with a new diesel anyway, if I can save fuel costs in favour of cheaper electricity $100k is an easy choice. Considering the bulk of the cost of a diesel pickup is in the powertrain, I'm not sure an electric would be prohibitively expensive. Finding enough Li-Ion cells to fill those packs would be another matter though.


Most Europeans get all of that, minus the 5th wheel, done with a car or crossover SUV. You will regularly see Honda CRV's and VW Golfs towing travel trailers in Europe. Only in America do you need a truck to tow light loads. Obviously you aren't towing a 5th wheel camper with a Golf, but you get the point. Trucks in the US are underutilized.


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## sloeffle (Mar 17, 2021)

CombatChris said:


> Which is why Tesla is doing it different. No frame + body, the body IS the frame. It's an exoskeleton, which is very much NOT a unibody. They're going all in on both aerodynamics AND cost to manufacture by just using folded stainless steel in a simple and STRONG shape.
> 
> There's a reason no one can meet Tesla's specs or price. It's because Tesla went all in 100% on function over form.
> 
> I'll let you all know how well my Tri-Motor Cybertruck drives and hauls firewood when I get it in ~2023.


Once Tesla produces a vehicle that is on par quality wise as other automakers I'll be interested. Until then, I'll pass.









						Tesla ranks last on influential JD Power quality survey
					

Tesla cars suffered 250 problems per 100 vehicles, well above industry average of 166.




					www.theverge.com
				




For Tesla being such a bleeding edge company, I find it kind of ironic that Honda was the first company to have their level 3 autonomous driving system approved. Hasn't Tesla been touting how great their autopilot system is for years ?









						Honda Legend Sedan with Level 3 Autonomy Available for Lease in Japan
					

Honda says its Sensing Elite technology means the driver of the limited-edition sedan won't have to pay attention under some conditions.




					www.caranddriver.com
				




IMHO Tesla's customers are their guinea pigs. I've worked in IT long enough, and have seen this rodeo before.


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## CombatChris (Mar 17, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Saying it's not a unibody vehicle is pure semantics. The body is structural, just like every unibody car. The stainless steel bodywork is kind of a head scratcher to me. Aluminum or composite would be lighter and more functional, but probably brings the cost too high.



OK, lets break it down more. The S, 3, Y, almost all other cars are uni-body. Let's look at a unibody.





See how little to none of the unibody is actually part of the exterior? The exterior is still made up of thin stamped panels which get mounted to the underlying unibody.

Compare that to the Cybertruck.




The outer skin, the 'body panel', ARE the load bearing frame. They're thick as hell compared to sheet metal panels at 3mm. They're also using cold rolled stainless for it's strength. Comparisons to Delorean fall flat on their face because the Delorean was a body on frame with SS panels bolted on.

See: https://www.sae.org/news/2020/06/tesla-cybertruck-stainless-steel









						Tesla Cybertruck - WorldAutoSteel
					

Elon Musk has confirmed high quality 300 series stainless steel as their engineering team’s material of choice for the Cybertruck.It’s corrosion resistant, strong and affordable - that’s why the Tesla Cybertruck team chose a stainless steel alloy to create the Cybertruck exoskeleton.




					www.worldautosteel.org


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## ABMax24 (Mar 17, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Most Europeans get all of that, minus the 5th wheel, done with a car or crossover SUV. You will regularly see Honda CRV's and VW Golfs towing travel trailers in Europe. Only in America do you need a truck to tow light loads. Obviously you aren't towing a 5th wheel camper with a Golf, but you get the point. Trucks in the US are underutilized.



Or you live in a place with roads that cars and small SUV's simply can't travel, never mind tow anything on. Our boat launch is a dirt ramp down to a gravel bar at the edge of the river, my truck doesn't make it back up that in 2wd, not really sure how a front wheel drive car would make it up that on its own, nevermind towing a boat. We usually run sled decks to haul our sleds, because we want that weight on the drive tires, the roads are icy and steep enough to want that extra traction, almost all of us carry tire chains on that road, something most people from the lower 48 have never used.  Some people run open deck or enclosed trailers behind small pickups or large SUVs/Jeeps to haul sleds, and unfortunately I have come across enough of those setups upside down in the ditch to realize it's not ideal.

My 1 ton isn't under-utilized. It doesn't leave the driveway unless it's hauling or towing something. We have a diesel Chevy Colorado for a commuter vehicle, it was chosen due to having similar fuel mileage and a cost comparable to an SUV, with the added benefits of additional towing capacity and a truck bed. So sure I guess that one is under-utilized, but in terms of cost to me, or CO2 emissions its the same as an SUV.


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## begreen (Mar 18, 2021)

So will off-roading in a Canoo be called canoodling?


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## jetsam (Mar 18, 2021)

begreen said:


> So will off-roading in a Canoo be called canoodling?



If you back it up too far on the boat ramp, it will most likely be called Canooing.

*consults crystal ball*  I further predict at least one lawsuit from an idiot who drives it into the water on purpose and then sues because the name was misleading....


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## begreen (Mar 18, 2021)

jetsam said:


> If you back it up too far on the boat ramp, it will most likely be called Canooing.
> 
> *consults crystal ball*  I further predict at least one lawsuit from an idiot who drives it into the water on purpose and then sues because the name was misleading....


I suppose someone will come up with floatation devices as an accessory too.


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## semipro (Apr 3, 2021)

jetsam said:


> If you back it up too far on the boat ramp, it will most likely be called Canooing.


And when the battery dies you'd be up the creek without a paddle.


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## semipro (Apr 3, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I really wish these electric car makers would just try to replace existing vehicle platforms with electrics. If they want to make a difference in emissions, make a copy cat electric F150 or F350 with no bells and whistles, and a 500 mile range at a comparable price point. That would be a vehicle that large fleet operators would buy.


I get your point but so much about traditional vehicle design is based on accommodating a large central power source and the respective drivetrain and support systems (e.g. engine compartment, driveshaft tunnel, one or two fuel tanks, radiator for cooling, etc.). 
Going electric, especially as we move towards a motor at each wheel, allows so much more flexibility with respect to the placement of batteries, electronics, etc. and does away with other components entirely. 
"Skateboard" platforms like Canoo are exciting in that they offer a standard powertrain and power storage chassis that can be used with multiple body modules to build a range of vehicles very economically via standardization.
i think it's a great concept.   We'll see where it goes.


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## begreen (Apr 3, 2021)

semipro said:


> And when the battery dies you'd be up the creek without a paddle.


That is a reasonable concern with any EV. AAA had a mobile charging unit, but that program got suspended a couple of years ago. Now the only option is a tow.


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## jetsam (Apr 5, 2021)

begreen said:


> That is a reasonable concern with any EV. AAA had a mobile charging unit, but that program got suspended a couple of years ago. Now the only option is a tow.



If you have big enough motors, a couple miles of low speed towing with the regenerative brakes on might  get you enough juice to make the next exit. Be tough to find a willing tow truck driver though!

You could also pack a wind turbine and a folding solar array.... a week of charging with that should get you to at least half a tank! (Pack some beans and firewood.)


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