# Garn 2000 for house and shop



## Grigg (Nov 6, 2019)

After a lot of research on wood boilers and particularly Garn a few years ago we're finally making plans to install one in the coming weeks/months.

Timing was favorable to pick one up on a trip with some friends and family to Wisconsin a few weeks ago.

Just poured the slab this Monday and will unload it next Monday.  It'll be in a mechanical room as part of a shop addition.

Radiant heat in new slab.  Forced air in part of the existing shop. Still considering options but likely radiant floor in part of house, radiators or baseboard in other parts and part of new shop space.

Expect I'll have plenty of questions along the way.  We have hired a local hydronic heating contractor to help with the application part but they haven't been around a Garn before, not that it makes much difference where hot water comes from.
I've been doing the research and work to get the thing physically installed.

Obviously had hoped to have it in service about now but things didn't quite fall in place to start the project in time.


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## JohnDolz (Nov 6, 2019)

Grigg said:


> After a lot of research on wood boilers and particularly Garn a few years ago we're finally making plans to install one in the coming weeks/months.
> 
> Timing was favorable to pick one up on a trip with some friends and family to Wisconsin a few weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Congrats, exciting stuff! It might make a difference where the hot water comes from. Some hydronic folks only know 185 degree water coming out of a boiler being run through large circulators. I would think you want someone that is very comfortable with the different water temps that best fit each type of emitter - you mention quite a mix: radiant, forced air, baseboard, etc. I'm a fan of Outdoor Reset so I would look for someone that is knowledgeable on that as well. Heating the water is 1 task, using the stored BTU's in the most efficient manner is another. Not suggesting the person you chose is not knowledgeable/fully capable.


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## Bad LP (Nov 6, 2019)

Utilizing various emitters that requires different design temps gets tricky. 
I’m doing it and not 100% thrilled. 
Hard to make 180 water in a tank with 140 water.  
RFH wanting 120 water is a non issue. 
Heating BR’s with BB that were designed for 180 isn’t efficient. 

I’m guilty of changing my mind on a heating source after the fact. I’ll continue to make the needed changes:
A) Put domestic HW back on the LP boiler. 
B) Remove the BB heaters and install panels. 
C) Add a CI radiator to a currently unheated space. I might add electric RFH if I remove the current w/w carpet with tile. Plans are in the air at this time. 

LESSON. Retrofitting is twice the cost.


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## Grigg (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback.  I think we've picked the right folks and are familiar with their good work on my parents house about 18 or 20 years ago.  A good friend is also knowledgeable in this and has offered to advise if needed and for his own curiosity. First I'll listen to the folks we've hired trusting they know what's going on.  I'll be sure to understand the system and options as they develop.

Few pictures of the in floor tubing. 
6" of foam under the slab.
Also 6" up the stem wall which will overlap the 6" SIP walls to come and make a sort of shelf all the way around the room.  Seemed like a good way to deal with the under slab to wall insulation transition.
6" slab.  We ended up replacing the bricks with pieces of cinder block to get the tubing a little lower.  Even so the concrete guy was afraid to cut any more than the one control joint at the inside corner (no tubes in the vicinity).

The Garn sits over the Garn sized lack of tubing.
We've provided two 4" pieces of conduit with long sweeping elbows to get insulated hot water to and from  the house basement, about 30-40' run from the back of the Garn.


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## Grigg (Nov 6, 2019)

The first floor will be two main rooms each with a thermostat. We did put in tubes for in slab temp sensors if desired.

Much of the new space (pictured earlier)  will have a second floor.  Undecided at this point how to heat it, or if it'll even need much heat if the first floor is kept warm. Only 5 small to medium size windows in the 1500 sq ft second floor with 12" insulated roof panels.
Investigated radiant heat built in to the second floor subfloor but that didn't seem cost effective.
Right now thinking of a few radiator panels under those windows but still open to options.

In the existing shop about the only realistic option is a heat exchanger in the existing AC system. It currently has no heat or provisions for heat other than a traditional wood stove that will be removed.

The existing house (very small) will likely get staple up radiant heat  under the bedroom and the bathroom floor.
Right now hot water baseboard or the flat radiator panels sound like good options for the living room and kitchen. They have old thick wood floors and also wouldn't be real easy to install radiant floor heat underneath.  (bed and bath have newer floor systems and less going on under them)

Also want to use the Garn to supplement the gas hot water heater in the house.  Still looking into options and listening to ideas from our radiant heat guys on that.


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## Grigg (Nov 6, 2019)

Back to the Garn. 
They have a technical service bulletin dated Feb 20 2019 that came inserted in the paper manual with my unit.  Bulletin not yet on the website but that's the link if it is.
They are now suggesting you can use the bottom of the tank for hot water supply and return to the upper fitting, this is opposite of how they originally intended you to plumb them.
Sounds like the newer models now have a 2" female pipe fitting for both ports and they supply a piece of 1.5" pipe a few feet long that can be inserted and screwed in to either port you choose to be the hot water return.

They say a number of owners have tried reverse flow in the past.  I think they must have used the 1.5" pipe (welded in) as the suction, they now/still want you to have 2" suction wherever it is.
Benefits of the reversed flow are increased useable thermal storage and reduce or eliminate pump suction boiling.

They don't list any downside to using the lower tank fitting as the hot water supply so long as it is 2".

Any thoughts on, or experience with, this?


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## jebatty (Nov 7, 2019)

The Garn is a good boiler. My experience is with the 3200. Keep in mind that the Garn is not pressurized and elevations of your various emitters in relation to the Garn will be an important design consideration. If a pressurized, closed system is needed, you probably will need a water to water heat exchanger to isolate the Garn from the pressurized system. Also, the Garn is intended to be a batch burner, not burn with storage, and not burn continuously. Let us all know you your design/install progresses.


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## maple1 (Nov 7, 2019)

Make sure your emitters are sized for lower supply temps. Or else you won't be able to utilize the batch burning & storage capabilities anything close to fully.

That would likely mean oversizing  your W-A Hx way more than what someone used to conventional heat sources would normally size at. Baseboards as well. It's easy to mix down hot water to a lower supply temp for say in-floor, but if your HX & baseboards get sized for 160 or above, that will likely lead to disappointing system performance.


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## Grigg (Nov 7, 2019)

I understand lower temp the better for efficiency, within reason, and not  high enough then 2000 gallons won't be enough storage for infrequent burns given the heating demands. 

What's a good or average water temp to use for those emitter sizing calculations?


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## Bad LP (Nov 7, 2019)

Grigg said:


> I understand lower temp the better for efficiency, within reason, and not  high enough then 2000 gallons won't be enough storage for infrequent burns given the heating demands.
> 
> What's a good or average water temp to use for those emitter sizing calculations?


It really depends on the finish floors. I was told not to exceed 105 on my wood floors in the DR and LR. My tile areas will take whatever you can stand but they too are on the same water temp due to using a Taco Radiant Floor Mixing Block. It has outdoor reset with program min/max parameters built in. I think it works very well knowing they are rarely used these days.


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## jebatty (Nov 7, 2019)

If my recollection is correct, the Garn will work best on supply temps of 140F and less. In other words, burn the Garn to a high temp, mix down to 140 or less, and use the Garn as your storage supply above 140F and to your lowest level of water temp needed. After the high temp burn, let the Garn burn down to low coals or "out." Empty ash/coals if they are accumulating. Then another batch burn as needed.


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## TCaldwell (Nov 7, 2019)

When I first installed my garn in 2006, the manual suggested supply at the bottom and return To the top. I believe this was primarily due to over firing ( water temp too high) that  exacerbated  cavitation ( npsh)  due to poor install practices, mainly the circ being too high in elevation.
 At that time there wasn’t any internal or recommended diffusers, tank temps tended to be more homogeneous, with not much thermocline.
 Some time after the the dip tubes came into play advocating supply from the top, thermocline and reduced cavitation.
 I believe the single temp gage originally supplied and installed At the same height as the high supply port was confusing to most regardless of what they read in manual that did state not to fire if over 185. Not that this was wrong  but it totally dependent as to the result of how your garn is piped. Supply from the top and you have 3/4 of the tank to heat up, supply from the bottom is more homogeneous, requiring less wood to reach the target temp., based on that one thermometer. Unfortunately this all required a learning curve not to over fire.
 At this point low temp emitters And thermocline are the key, as the longer you can wait to fire the garn the more efficiency you gain.
 I’m piped from the top, return to the bottom, using 4 equally spaced thermocouples to monitor tank temps. It’s not uncommon to see a 60 plus differential from top to bottom, really leveraging that top 1/4 of storage to lengthen times between burns. 
 I average the 4 temps subtracting that sum from my target temp, then multiplying that by 3 ( it will take you roughly 3 lbs wood to raise your 2000 gal garn one degree)
 So if my averaged temp is 140, my target is 180 = 40 deg diff.  40 x 3= 120 lbs wood required to get you there, you’ll need to weigh your wood. 
 For this to work properly you’ll need to mix the tank only as it’s firing So as the tank is fully charged ( same temp top to bottom).


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## maple1 (Nov 7, 2019)

Bad LP said:


> It really depends on the finish floors. I was told not to exceed 105 on my wood floors in the DR and LR. My tile areas will take whatever you can stand but they too are on the same water temp due to using a Taco Radiant Floor Mixing Block. It has outdoor reset with program min/max parameters built in. I think it works very well knowing they are rarely used these days.



I think what he was asking related to supply temp to use for size calcing other emitters, and not floor heat. Baseboards, etc. Hotter can always be mixed down for in floor.

I think I would maybe use 140 supply temps for baseboard or W-A Hx sizing calcs. See what that says, and then even add more if you have room for it. Don't think more can hurt anything. Then there may also be some spots in your house & system layout you could throw in a cast iron rad or the like to pull out more heat. If on the same zone as baseboard, I would put that at the end of zone after the baseboard. Assuming a commonly accepted dT through emitters/zones of 20°, that would mean 120° returning to boiler. The longer you can keep the coolest water possible returning to the boiler, the more efficient it should be in pulling heat out of the exhaust before it gets exhausted. And the better stratification (thermocline) will be.


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## TCaldwell (Nov 7, 2019)

Yes but the success starts at understanding the boiler and it’s piping to get the most out of the rest of the system.


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## maple1 (Nov 7, 2019)

TCaldwell said:


> Yes but the success starts at understanding the boiler and it’s piping to get the most out of the rest of the system.



Also true.


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## Bad LP (Nov 7, 2019)

Agreed. All I know is every room in my house is zoned and the cooler the tank storage gets the more the BB zones do not stop asking for heat. This lower heat also pulls the heat out of hot water storage trying to satisfy that set temp.

I'm 100% sure that if I changed out the BB for panels I would still remain warm and be able to use my lower temps in storage more effectively.


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## JohnDolz (Nov 7, 2019)

Bad LP said:


> Agreed. All I know is every room in my house is zoned and the cooler the tank storage gets the more the BB zones do not stop asking for heat. This lower heat also pulls the heat out of hot water storage trying to satisfy that set temp.
> 
> I'm 100% sure that if I changed out the BB for panels I would still remain warm and be able to use my lower temps in storage more effectively.


"I'm 100% sure that if I changed out the BB for panels I would still remain warm and be able to use my lower temps in storage more effectively." - Absolutely.

"All I know is every room in my house is zoned and the cooler the tank storage gets the more the BB zones do not stop asking for heat. This lower heat also pulls the heat out of hot water storage trying to satisfy that set temp." - I leverage Outdoor Reset and use a design curve that never gets me to the point that my thermostats stop calling. My objective is to run the circs 24x7 with a minimal flow at the lowest temperature possible. I have BB heat and manage to keep my house near 72 using very low water temps - of course it would be more efficient with emitters designed for lower temps.   Granted this is a theory and doesn't actually work this way - circs end up going on and off due to thermal gain, etc.


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## Grigg (Nov 11, 2019)

After waiting a week for the new slab to cure we unloaded the Garn today.

30 second video of the process here.


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## Grigg (Dec 17, 2019)

We have a roof over it now and I'm closer to getting it set in its final resting place.  
Building the rest of the system will start in the new year.

I'm hearing that it's desirable to mix the tank while firing, which I understand.
Earlier I was thinking supply for heating from the bottom per the recent technical service bulletin. This has a few advantages as mentioned earlier, increased useable thermal storage being one.  Does mixing while firing do as much or more in that regard?

Not yet sure if the main circulator pump will be used for mixing.  If not, what size pump would be desirable as a stand alone for mixing?

Thanks,
Grigg


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## eauzonedan (Dec 18, 2019)

Based upon the layout of the of the internal piping within the storage area I suspect Martin spent a lot of time to optimize uniform water heating without need for a dedicated mixing pump.  That being said everyone’s pumping rates, return water temps etc will be different and anything we can do to optimize the mix on recharge is good. Garn recommends the addition of their filter system which I retro fitted and plugged into the control box so it cycles with the fan.   It’s piped the opposite of my supply pump and located on the front of the unit which I believe sets up a flow pattern within the tank. My 3 submerged sensors tell me 50+ degrees of stratification before the burn is under a degree after the burn and includes the recommended filtering. So the combination of Martins design, the rear supply pump for heat to the system and the “counter flow” filter pump gets me near a 100% mix during a burn. Please note relying solely on Garn’s single internal temp measurement will not give you the whole story on your storage temps. 
Dan


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## hedge wood (Dec 25, 2019)

Dan 
How old is your Garn? Mine is 10 years old this year. I added a stainless housing filter to my Garn after having mine down this  summer repairing the weld that failed were the heating chamber is welded to the front of the unit. I am pulling out the front on the bottom drain port and putting back in my piping that goes to the top of mine were the water is pulled from for heating the exchanger's  I was down May to Aug and have had the pump for the filter running 24/7 since then. First couple months was changing filter every two weeks down to a month now. I think later I will wire mine like yours that the pump for the filter only runs when the blower is running.


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## eauzonedan (Dec 25, 2019)

my serial is 2812. It’s been in service 5 years but sat in the pole  barn a few years before  it got piped up. It was of the first ones to get the electronic control module. I suspect yours has the old egg timer and may not allow a direct plug in of the filter pump.?? The new controller has a duplex outlet for the fan motor and also room for the pump to be just plugged in. The Garn guys said there was enough capacity in the relay to handle both fan and pump.  My well water sucks and after the initial chemical dump it creates a heavy flock   It takes daily filter changes for a few weeks to clean things up. Mike at precision says some form of iron. Ya don’t want that crap to settle to the bottom of the tank as it will become a sludge that will block the chemicals from protecting the steel. I added a couple hose bibs in the filter loop to allow me to  roust the nooks and crannies to keep things in solution and allow the filter to do its thing. Good news is that once it’s gone.... it’s gone and I cycle with the fan for maintainence . Filters now last months. Dan


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## Grigg (Feb 3, 2020)

We're finally making progress on the Garn after working on the building first (and still).

Set the Garn on 8" of foam to get the air inlet up high enough to clear the masonry wall. Still feels like a comfortable loading/operating height otherwise would have trimmed the wall if lower was necessary.

Piping is well under way.  I haven't fully grasped the system design but as I do learn parts it makes sense and seems logical.  Glad to have folks doing this that have done it for decades, I'd be at it for months were I to figure it all out and install the piping myself.

Their is a large heat exchanger separating the Garn from the rest of the system. The circulator in the primary loop, suction from bottom of tank,  will run when called for and also run when the blower is on for mixing while firing.

Two pump flanges on top are for two different rooms, one gets coil in air handler and other a unit heater hanging from ceiling.

Pump flange on left with a mixing valve is for radiant slab and will benefit from outdoor reset.

Pump at bottom right is for a loop to the house for heat and hot water. Indirect tank heater for the domestic hot water uses whatever temp is coming from the Garn and then output of that feeds through existing gas water heater, and likely a thermostatic mixing valve. House heat still undecided, either radiant under floor or radiators.

If all goes well they'll have the primary loop and bypass filter connected today or tomorrow and I'll get it filled and running this week.

Grigg


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## hwater85 (Feb 4, 2020)

Grigg said:


> We're finally making progress on the Garn after working on the building first (and still).
> 
> Set the Garn on 8" of foam to get the air inlet up high enough to clear the masonry wall. Still feels like a comfortable loading/operating height otherwise would have trimmed the wall if lower was necessary.
> 
> ...


Nice to see someone else is from Virginia. 
Do you have to unit just resting on top of foam?
 Adam


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## Grigg (Feb 4, 2020)

I know of two other Garns in our county, one I've seen and one I haven't.  You're not that far away, do you have one as well?

Yes, it is sitting on Dow Thermax Polyisocyanurate Insulation which has a compressive strength of 25 psi.  The boiler full of water and given the runner area only applies 8.3 psi, so although it seems counter intuitive the foam is more than adequate to support the weight.

Grigg


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## hwater85 (Feb 4, 2020)

I don't own a Garn Unit, but I really like the design.  I'm in the beginning stage of building a 1200 gallon system, inspired by the great Gary Switzer.  All the steel is on order and a local fab shop is doing the rolling and bulk welding of the tank. I may regret this build in a few months, but I've pulled the trigger. No turning back now. 
Nice to know that I can sit the tank on a foam foundation.

Adam


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## Highbeam (Feb 4, 2020)

Grigg said:


> I know of two other Garns in our county, one I've seen and one I haven't.  You're not that far away, do you have one as well?
> 
> Yes, it is sitting on Dow Thermax Polyisocyanurate Insulation which has a compressive strength of 25 psi.  The boiler full of water and given the runner area only applies 8.3 psi, so although it seems counter intuitive the foam is more than adequate to support the weight.
> 
> Grigg



We sometimes build roads on top of foam now. Then drive 100,000 lb trucks over them. 20 psi is a lot. Usually way stronger than the soil beneath.


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## hedge wood (Feb 6, 2020)

Grigg
Good to see your making some more head way. I run four different systems out of my Garn so it looks like I bought stock in a plumbing wholesale company behind my Garn.  It runs into a lot of money plumbing these Garn's up.


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## maple1 (Feb 6, 2020)

hedge wood said:


> Grigg
> Good to see your making some more head way. I run four different systems out of my Garn so it looks like I bought stock in a plumbing wholesale company behind my Garn.  It runs into a lot of money plumbing these Garn's up.



That goes for any boiler & system. Big time.


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## Grigg (Feb 6, 2020)

It has been a lot of pipe fitting in a small space.  The last three days work has kept two guys busy, and they're very efficient workers having probably half a century of experience between them.

Here's a more up to date picture. Still a few connections to be made and a couple valves to install.


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## salecker (Feb 7, 2020)

Grigg said:


> It has been a lot of pipe fitting in a small space.  The last three days work has kept two guys busy, and they're very efficient workers having probably half a century of experience between them.
> 
> Here's a more up to date picture. Still a few connections to be made and a couple valves to install.


You should get a valve on each side of the filter before they finish and fill it with fluid.


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## maple1 (Feb 7, 2020)

Yes, more iso valves. One on each side of each circ and all other components. Do I see a filter? One on each side of that especially.


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## TCaldwell (Feb 7, 2020)

Is that a tekmar 3 way valve, what components did you end up with for hydronic Controlls?


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## hedge wood (Feb 13, 2020)

maple1 said:


> Yes, more iso valves. One on each side of each circ and all other components. Do I see a filter? One on each side of that especially.



I sure like a valve on each side of the pump. Makes changing the pump a lot easier. You want a valve on each side of that filter. I even installed a gauge on each side of my filter so I can see if it is plugging up.


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## Grigg (Feb 24, 2020)

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, we now have valves on each side of the filter.

It is a Tekmar 3 way valve for the radiant floor loop.  Tekmar controls, and for the floor outdoor reset. The other zones with duct or fan coils will have ordinary thermostats I think.

Finally ready for the first fill (with the cleaning chemicals) today.
I'll fill through the filter and wire the main circulator pump to run.
Can I start a fire and just plug the blower in to warm the water for better cleaning?  Still a little ways off from installing the Garn control box and sensors.

Thanks,
Grigg


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## TCaldwell (Feb 24, 2020)

Sure, just don’t forget to unplug the blower when the fire is done


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## Grigg (Feb 25, 2020)

First fire went OK but was interesting.
It huffed and puffed some illuminating a few things I didn't understand or didn't think were important.
The door wasn't closing firmly enough, I thought it was reasonable to start with, quickly adjusted by turning it. Figured that out when it started chugging and made a nice show of sparks out from around the door gasket.
That helped reduce the huffing and puffing but you could still fell it mildly surging, kind of like it had a pulse.

The room it is in has two 8'x10' garage door openings without doors in them.  I had cut the air inlet hole in the wall 2' or less away and inline with the inlet on the stove but hadn't yet connected it thinking  with the hole in the wall and two huge doors open it'd easily get fresh air.  Very likely not having the inlet plumed outside the room with the exhaust  was the main reason for the chugging as it resolved after sliding the cardboard stovepipe box through the wall as a make shift air inlet duct.  It was really quite interesting, you could actually feel the upstairs floor flexing up and down gently to the pulse of the stove, again the room was wide open to the outside.

That sorted out easily enough and no more issues other than the expected condensation from the stove pipe.  
Started a second fire this morning and got the tank up to 145 degrees F.  Later this afternoon drained the first fill with the precleaner.

Next task is rinsing and cleaning the inside.  I hosed it down a few times as it was draining to rinse the rust bubbles off.
Once empty climbed in with garden hose and a rag to wipe and rinse all the little rust spots.  

It was pretty challenging to get everything and difficult to drain the last inch and a half or so.  I scrubbed and rinsed for an hour tonight.  I'll go back in tomorrow morning with a sponge and buckets to mop up the water and rust or sediment.
Is this normally so difficult? The manual says to just spray the interior surfaces and drain then clean whatever remains in the bottom.  Spraying wasn't removing the rust bubbles, I had to wipe them before they'd rinse off.

I was prepping it this week to fill it on Monday.  I'll be away later this week, need to install the thermometer that comes Friday, and we have to purchase/haul water for the real fill.  
Not mentioned in  the manual but I'm wondering if I need to fill it promptly or somehow dry it out otherwise I expect it continues to rust over the weekend?


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## TCaldwell (Feb 26, 2020)

Yes, fill as soon as possible to mitigate new rust. I use a shop vac to clean the last bit of water, debris. The inline filter should do the rest, change frequently when the pressure builds due to being plugged during the first few weeks.


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## hedge wood (Feb 27, 2020)

After I did my cracked weld rebuild last summer. After running the precleaner in the system and then draining the tank I used a small pressure washer hooked up to my hot water heater to get it good and clean and then used a wet vacuum to get the bottom cleaned up. I filled it right way and warmed it back up and checked for leaks and got the final chemical added and got a pump running.


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## mike van (Feb 28, 2020)

Grigg - Seven years ago my new Garn spent a week between cleanout & fresh water, and it did rust inside. A lot.  I dealt with that for a long time, finally adding a Garn filter to stop the fine slimy rust from plugging the heat ex.   If you can see rust forming inside the tank, I'd wipe it all down, maybe using a few heat lamps? if needed to warm & dry the steel to stop it before it re-rusts.  My tank was dirtier, rustier, and more of a problem after the clean out chemical process than before.


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## Grigg (Mar 9, 2020)

Thanks for the replies and input.

I talked to Martin about the post pre-cleaner rust spots being hard to wash off and he said it happens occasionally perhaps as a result of my particular water chemistry but is  not a big concern.

A wet shop vac would be handy but I managed with a bucket and some rags, didn't take that long and only about a half a bucket full to mop up.
Didn't have time to get it fully perfectly dried out before leaving town but it was none the worse upon my return.

Monday we had water hauled and that went fine and filled very fast with a 2" hose.  Understandably the delivery guy was unwilling to let me fill it through the filter with a garden hose given how long that would take..
Lit a fire Monday night and again Tuesday morning getting it up to 120 *F.  By Sunday morning it was down to 70*F
I've had the main circulator pump and the bypass filter pump running the whole time.

Now I have the inlet air pipe, damper, and hood fully installed as well as the exhaust pipe.
Installed all the sensors and mounted the control box this week and had the first fully automated burn yesterday, Sunday, morning.
I added a hour meter for the blower motor to satisfy my curiosity on total run time in the years to come.

This week I hope to insulate and install the remaining 5/8" sheet rock around it. Then run the last bit of conduit on the outside of the enclosure for the sensor wires and permanent  power.
Also this week we'll pull the two piping circuits down to the basement of the house and should have the shop floor manifolds connected and heating the floor. Probably get everything wrapped up in time for warm weather.


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## hedge wood (Mar 14, 2020)

Looks like you making some good head way. Are you going to heat your domestic water year around with the Garn?


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## Grigg (Mar 15, 2020)

We could heat domestic hot water year round, not sure if it's wise to do so?
Where the Garn is will be air conditioned in the summer and if the unavoidable heat loss from Garn and related piping is great enough it'd be better to buy propane for hot water than burn wood and the added electricity/AC load.  Haven't tried to put numbers to that to decide.

Another thought is install electric heaters in the Garn and if our solar system over produces in the summer (not sure if it will) then dump the extra into the Garn for DHW.  Still the same considerations as above for offsetting heat loss.


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## Grigg (Mar 16, 2020)

Slowly making progress.
The Garn is insulated mostly, need a few more bags of rock wool.  Drywall to follow.

Both pairs of pipes now pulled to the basement, nearly 50' run.  Decided to put both supply lines insulated together and same with return lines.  Each pair in one piece of 1/2" thick black foam pipe insulation and pulled through 4" PVC.

The floor is connected with operable thermostat and heating, no troubles so far.  Waiting on the Tekmar controller for that zone.  For now set the mixing valve manually and not firing the stove over 120*.

The rest of the zones will probably take a while to get connected. Still not sure if radiant, radiators, or baseboards in the house.  Comparing options and prices.


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## TCaldwell (Mar 17, 2020)

Nice and neat work, one thing I have done for a controller mount is to use a small vesa  tv mount . I find it keeps the controller cooler and allows for friendlier viewing angle.


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## Grigg (Mar 18, 2020)

Thanks, I am also quite pleased with their piping abilities, attention to detail, and willingness to modify and improve if they (or sometimes I) think of a better design option.

The TV mount sounds and looks like a good idea. I'll stick with what I have for now, it is easy enough to view as the wall it is beside is right at a doorway you can stand in. Otherwise adjusting the angle would be desirable.

Nearly done insulating the boiler all except for the front and part of the back. Pictures attached of that in progress before getting 3" between the studs and 6" between floor joist.  Nominally 12" rock wool top, 9" sides, more in the corners, and 8" polyiso underneath. Front only fits 3.5" and not sure yet on the back but  6" or 8" minimum.

Some thoughts about the install thus far.
8" of foam riser underneath is a good height for me being 6' tall, and a couple inches higher might be even more comfortable for loading wood in it.
It's in a room 18' deep/wide from front to back of the boiler, 20' would be perfect.  We designed the building to the space available and 18' was all we had.  To start with the Garn was drawn 90 degrees to how it sits now but that idea didn't fly after evaluating exhaust options. Cross ways in the room is much better use of the space except it is very cramped behind the Garn.  Room is right at 18' wall to wall less 8" at the stem wall that is about 30" tall.  We pushed the Garn back as far as reasonably possible still leaving room to sort of get behind it but it's really cramped, can't do much if you do fit back there even if the stem wall weren't in part of that space.  I'd recommend 2' walking and pipe room behind it not counting the desired insulation and drywall on the back.  Because of the tight space I'm going to end up with it all closed in behind but with removable side access panels, no walking room.

Grigg


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## eauzonedan (Mar 21, 2020)

2’ is about min for my large girth in back. 7 ‘ out front with a couple building door swings, an old farm scale and a wood wagon was about right also.  5 ‘ would be getting a bit weak but doable. It was my first shot with steel studs and went thru lots of band aids.  

I used white gloss hard board on sides with thin cement board on the fire breathing end - all attached with self tapping screws. Worked out well! 
	

		
			
		

		
	




Great looking project
Dan


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## eauzonedan (Mar 21, 2020)

Sorry bout extra baggage....   bad phone!!  Bad bad phone!  ......It listens about as well as the Labs. Dan


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## hedge wood (Mar 21, 2020)

Dan 
Looks like you went with a stainless filter housing. That is what I installed when I did my repair last year. I was worried the plastic might not stand up. How often have you been changing your filter?


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## eauzonedan (Mar 21, 2020)

I’ve Got some crazy form of iron in my well water. I worked with Mike at Precision and we confirmed his chemicals will combine with it and create a cloudy flock than can be picked off by the filter. It’s critical to pull it out as a flock as if it settles out - it turns to a sludge that will prevent Mikes cocktail from protecting the steel. After a fresh well water fill it will load a filter a day for a couple weeks. Once it’s out of the water I go months without any rise in back pressure in the filter loop that signals filter swaps.   I’m now running the new manhole cover that solved almost all evaporation and thus my crappy well water additions. Last spring I topped up with maybe 30 gallons of water and a quart of Mikes secret recipe. Maybe burned a couple filters to get back to gin clear. Last filter swap was last sept and still shows about 4 1/2 psi back pressure which is pretty clean. ... sorry bout the long version but thought it important to understand the full picture. I also have a couple hose bibs in the pump circuit to allow a hose run with a PEX wand into the full tank to rouse the knooks  and crannies and/or vacuum the pool.   A clean tank is a happy one!!
Dan


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## Highbeam (Mar 22, 2020)

Sounds like typical high iron content in your well water. It’s clear until it hits oxygen and then it oxidizes into particles that can be filtered or will settle out. You probably have orange toilet tanks too! It’s easy to remove iron so that you don’t have it in your home or your boiler. My wife hated the orange stains in the dishwasher, toilets, and even light colored clothing.


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## eauzonedan (Mar 22, 2020)

Unfortunate  but not that simple ....   no staining of fixtures laundry etc.  or other indications. Mike says it’s definitely iron but it is bound with other things in the well water. Way back when I did the well  I tested for free iron and nothing showed up.  If I wanted to spend a bunch of diagnostic dollars it could be better identified. Bottom line is it prefers to bond with his cocktail better than whatever else is available and precipitates out as the flock in the tank.    Knowing the full chemistry would be nice but not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze.   Pia to get it out after a full drain and refill but once removed it’s fine and tank is gin clear till any top up with the well water. As long there is available chemical and the top up is minor it’s back to clear with a filter change or two. Plan B would be to truck water in but the process a lot of local municipalities use to treat water in this area would create different and even worse problems.  Points out why Garn is so persistent on the water quality. Unfortunate that  no two areas have the same exact issues. Dan


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## hedge wood (Mar 23, 2020)

Dan 
Sounds like you well is like mind not good. In the past I hauled my water in but have since lost that source so after the the repair last year I had to use my own well. I filtered it going into the Garn and worked with Mike on the cocktail to work with what I have. When I first got back up and going I was changing my filter every two weeks. Then went to a month then two. The water is clear and test good now  per Mike. I am going for three months on this change and see how the filter looks. I built my own cover out of stainless with a good seal years ago and that helps a bunch on water loss. Now that I am semi retired and can feed the Garn more times with wood I am not firing as high temp as I used to and that helps on water loss also.


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## hedge wood (Apr 12, 2020)

Grigg 
Did you get the Garn up and making heat?  It was 70 degrees here yesterday and is heading down in the upper 30's today and 40's all week here. My Garn is doing a nice job keeping me and my domestic water wartm this A.M. Have a good Easter.


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## Grigg (Apr 12, 2020)

Thanks for asking, I've been meaning to give an update.

From earlier discussion we have 5'-8" room between name tag on Garn door and opposite wall, feels like ample working room.

Mostly enclosed in 5/8" drywall now.  The top has drywall over the joist then 3/4" AdvanTech for a floor.  Need to finish back side access panels.  
Front is almost done, sturdy 5/8" drywall reinforced with fiberglass mesh then 1/16" Formica sheet over that.  Plan is to use T-nuts in the drywall to attach to the Garn flange and attach the removable Formica covers and trim pieces to the drywall.  The outside edges will get some sort of metal trim to hold the Formica and drywall down. 

Covering the front has taken a LOT of time and effort to do nicely and be removable.  A drawing, template, or plan/instructions from Garn on enclosing the front would have been much appreciated, everyone that buys a Garn  shouldn't need to figure out this puzzle over and over again.

Week before last we got it up to 180 degrees for the first time.  Initial fill was about 1" over recommended level so as  expected it overflowed.  It's now back down to about 100 degrees and 1/2" lower than suggested max fill level.
The insulation above the manway was quite wet from escaping moisture.  When installing it I couldn't understood how a piece of Teflon sheet would seal to the not quite flat and smooth manway flange, and it doesn't. Doubtful that a 10 lb weight (recommended) would help much either, and is that 10 lb per half lid or only 5 lb each?  
I ordered and installed some rubber trim part number 8693K25 from Mcmaster Carr, pictured below.  I'll find out if that helps next week.

The Garn is connected and warming the new concrete floor when called for.
Connected to the upstairs coil in the air handler, waiting to finish wiring and duct work but the heat part is ready.
Modine Hot Dawg heater for the shop is here and ready to hang and finish plumbing tomorrow.
Triangle Tube Smart 60 hot water heater almost finished installing in the basement for house.

Decided on US Boiler Baseray baseboard radiators for the house, they'll be here within two weeks.
Already have the PEX lines run in the basement for them and should install the manifold tomorrow.  Manifold like you would use for radiant floor with each Baseray unit on a loop, some rooms will have two units/loops. Should be easy to adjust flow and balance room temperatures higher or cooler (bedroom) than the average without complication of separate thermostats and pumps or automated valves.

Some possibly helpful tidbits:

The water level assembly I used is McMaster Carr part number 1142K31 https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/604/  Also 3/4" nipple and a 1/2" to 3/4" reducing coupling
Made by LDI industries as a vented oil gauge I believe their part number G265-4 http://www.ldi-industries.com/LDI-F...on-Equipment/Vented-Oil-Gages/G260_Series.pdf
It's perfect height as water is right at the top of the sight window when overflowing.  You could use a shorter one with some offset plumbing as working range is the upper half or so of the nominally 12" tall gauge.

Garn does not supply a grommet for the top left of control box to run the flue temperature sensor through.  Try Mcmaster Carr part number 9600K521   and punch your own hole to fit thermocouple wire then slit it to the edge for installing over the wire. You could punch more holes if you had more wires emerging there.  https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/126/4029


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## hedge wood (Apr 13, 2020)

Grigg
Looks like things are coming right along. I haven't been around there new split man way cover but it only took a couple weeks of running back in 2009 before I built a new man way cover out of heavy stainless with a gasket. Haven't had any moisture leaking out of the man way area since.  I did insulate the new cover with foam. I do like your sight glass for the water level. We had a fair amount of those on gear boxes on cooling tower's at work to keep a eye on the oil level. Installing one of these Garn's is a big job you will get it finished up one of these days.


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## jesweli (May 13, 2020)

Grigg said:


> I know of two other Garns in our county, one I've seen and one I haven't.  You're not that far away, do you have one as well?
> 
> Yes, it is sitting on Dow Thermax Polyisocyanurate Insulation which has a compressive strength of 25 psi.  The boiler full of water and given the runner area only applies 8.3 psi, so although it seems counter intuitive the foam is more than adequate to support the weight.
> 
> Grigg


I too think the same.


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## SpaceBus (May 14, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Sounds like typical high iron content in your well water. It’s clear until it hits oxygen and then it oxidizes into particles that can be filtered or will settle out. You probably have orange toilet tanks too! It’s easy to remove iron so that you don’t have it in your home or your boiler. My wife hated the orange stains in the dishwasher, toilets, and even light colored clothing.


How do you do it? I have a three stage filter and still some makes it through.


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## Highbeam (May 14, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> How do you do it? I have a three stage filter and still some makes it through.



Manganese oxide. Goes by several brand names including mang-ox or what I’m currently running at home, pro-ox from cleanwaterstore.com. It’s an actual media iron filter that backwashes, not a cartridge. It’s 9” diameter, 48” tall and backwashes the collected iron once per week.

At work I was the pm for the installation of a giant Manganese oxide filter using the same principle but that thing was twice the size of a cargo van and over a half million bucks! 

The media has a 10 year life expectancy and is the way you remove iron and manganese from water.


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## ameliaami (Oct 20, 2020)

hedge wood said:


> Grigg
> Did you get the Garn up and making heat?  It was 70 degrees here yesterday and is heading down in the upper 30's today and 40's all week here. My Garn is doing a nice job keeping me and my domestic water wartm this A.M. Have a good Easter.


Great job.. Keep it up....


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## Grigg (Oct 20, 2020)

We haven't fired the Garn yet this season but I did send out a water sample yesterday.  I expect we'll have it running week after this.
We've got the wood shed already half full of slab wood from my Dad's sawmill and getting ready to cut and split two dump truck loads of long wood.    That should fill the woodshed, about 10 cords, and we'll start using it next year, time will tell how long that much last, I hope about 1.5 years use.
This year we have some dry from previous years and will borrow some from  my folks. Construction schedule for the addition didn't fit well with wood cutting to get ahead like I intended.

Starting to get excited about being warm and cozy this winter.


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## hedge wood (Oct 25, 2020)

Grigg   I got behind this year with getting my wood ready to. Been trying to get some health issues straighten around. We finally got some hedge done before we started fall harvest. I run my Garn year around for domestic water. Temps been dipping down in the 30's and now the 20's so I been running a full load a day in the Garn the last 10 days or so. I guess winter is getting here like it or not. Still have field work, dirt work and would like to get some more wood cut before winter really gets here. Hope all is well with your Garn on start up.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Nov 13, 2020)

Well I got 5 years out of my Garn before the bottom rotted out


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## SpaceBus (Nov 14, 2020)

Five years seems like a short amount of time for such an expensive boiler. I doubt it would pay for itself in that amount of time.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Nov 14, 2020)

Yes, just put $2200 into it so it better last another 5


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## salecker (Nov 14, 2020)

Woodfarmer1 said:


> Well I got 5 years out of my Garn before the bottom rotted out


That seems totaly out of the norm for a Garn
 I would not settle for that issue.
 You need to find out what is happening. I remember a few years ago there was a 25? or so year old Garn the had been in a building that burnt,The Garn was cleaned up and put back to use because it was in great shape.The fellow that posted it said he saw lots of aged Garns in prime shape.


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## Woodfarmer1 (Nov 14, 2020)

Mine went into service before the filter system was recommended, lots of crud on the bottom. Water always tested good and the proper chemicals always used.


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## Grigg (Nov 16, 2020)

That is odd, 5 years is not very long.

Part of the instructions now is to check the bottom for sediment several times every year and clean if necessary.  They even explain how to remove the water, (inexpensive swimming pool) clean, and refill with same water if required.
Did you check for stuff on the bottom of the tank and remove it as needed? Was that in the manual at the time?


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## Grigg (Dec 8, 2020)

Update on our new Garn now that it's been running for a little more than a month this season.

During construction a year ago we had it running without being fully installed, insulated, or plumbed, about 34 hours run time then.
Now we're up to 78 hours total run time averaging about 2.5 hours per burn, some just under 2 hours and some nearly 4 if reloading mid way.

So  far only firing it every second evening even with the coldest days we've had thus far, and every several days when it's not cold at night. Probably used 3/4 cord of wood with half that 2x scraps from the construction and the rest good dry hardwood firewood.

All the different circuits and pumps are doing there thing, radiators, radiant floor, fan coil, and a unit heater. Domestic hot water is now only from the Garn, we turned off and bypassed the gas hot water heater until spring.

Getting a feel for how much wood gives what temp rise, and also what size pile of coals will give how much temp helps decide to add more wood or not. So far I've only overshot 180* by a couple.  Building a new fire somewhere between 110 and 140* tank temp depending on the weather. Someone had suggested weighing the wood and  making up a chart but I haven't tried that yet, just by eyeball is working so far.

I've reduced the chugging tendency by standing a fire brick on edge a few inches in front of the lower air blast in the fire box.  When it's down to a bed of coals I move it aside and that helps clean up more of the coals.

Starting a fire is exceptionally easy, a couple pieces of newspaper or junk mail is really all it needs because of the charcoal left in the pile of ashes from the previous fire. No kindling needed.
We have horizontal flue but elected to still use an inlet air damper, I thought it might help keep more heat in between burns.
I light the paper and close the door, then press start which takes about 30 seconds to open the damper before the blower comes on and it's off and going, no failed starts yet.

I wonder if I am loosing heat out the exhaust between burns because the exhaust temp probe is 10-15 degrees lower than tank temperature?

Grigg


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## TCaldwell (Dec 9, 2020)

It’s also lower on the tank


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## Grigg (Dec 9, 2020)

Good point, I'll also check my supply and return temperatures for comparison next time.
I can also cover up the exhaust pipe and see what difference that makes.


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## hedge wood (Dec 12, 2020)

Grigg     Good to hear all is good with the Garn.  So far our weather has been pretty mild. I am running a full load a day threw mine. Weather changed yesterday and snow last night and now down in the teens at night for the next week.  Will probably be running two loads a day next week.


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## jebatty (Dec 12, 2020)

Grigg, you (and others) can a little bit of fun calculating the btu input to your Garn (or other boiler, furnace, stove). Based on the assumptions of 400F flue temperature and wood at 20% moisture content, one pound of wood has about 6050 available btus. Species of wood has little impact on the energy contained in wood. In other words, one pound of oak has about the same energy as one pound of any other wood. A 100 lb load would have 65,000 btus of input energy.

You might want to weigh out a 50 lb and a 100 lb load to get a visual estimate of the wood energy you are loading into your Garn.


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## Grigg (Nov 29, 2022)

Figured time for an update.
About a month into our third full season season with the Garn WHS 2000.  Used a little bit during construction winter of 2019/20

I installed an hour meter that counts when the blower motor is on.
So far 752 hours of use from new.
This season started 9-30-22 and 2 months later we've had 24 burns totaling 64 hours.  Some of those were same day, missed refilling before the fire went out.

Generally I still run it up to 180° on cold nights though only a few times so far this year, mostly stopping at 165 or 170° even lower earlier in the season with milder temps.  
Staring another fire around 110-120, sometimes 130° if it's shower time.  Not real sure yet how low a tank temperature gives unsatisfactory domestic hot water (gas water heater bypassed), but somewhere in that range.
Initially I was filling the fire box full, usually two lengths end to end, and piled as high as I could (as needed given water temp).
Now I've been doing only one length of wood and stacked as high as I can but keeping it on the fire bricks, not resting on the steel sides, refill part way through as needed.  Seems the later approach might aid in the stove lasting longer

I've been sending out water samples twice a year and have added a few chemicals as recommended from that.  Replaced a few filters too when pressure before filter climbs, bypass filter running all the time.
End of first season I topped off the tank as advised in the manual, which most likely lead to poor water quality at the following test and necessity of chemicals.  Then that same water, now well treated, gets pushed out the overflow with the following season's first burn, seems wasteful. Long and interesting conversation with Mike at Precision Chem.  He recommended not toping off to point of overflow at end of season.
Water has looked clean when I open the cover to see, and no sediment or issues.  However I don't feel like I can see everything everywhere on the bottom, having been in there and looked around, very sure I can't see it all from the top.  Then what I can see can I really see enough detail?  How reliable and useful is looking in the top for catching issues early enough before they're really an issue?

I've brushed the flue and pipes twice now, just did it.  Someone suggested make your own carbon scraper from some sheet metal or metal lumber strapping material bent in a U and fixed to the cleaning rod run in a drill.  I did that and also used the bristle brushes sold by Garn (that fit kind of loose).  The home made thing is worthwhile, much better than brushing alone.

Have spare insulation, bricks, secondary burn chamber, and gaskets on hand, also a blower motor.  So far only used two gaskets.  The blower and adjacent cover gaskets seemed pretty well used and one was coming apart when I was brushing pipes last week.
Thinking of replacing the thin side bricks and pads, one or two have cracked but seem sound still.  What's the expected life or indications when best to replace bricks?

This is first season we've had all good hardwood and all here in the shed.  Hope to get a sense of how much wood we use in a year.  Guessing that we have 2.5 years in the shed when full, fingers crossed.  We're heating about 1,200 sq ft of house to about 68° and almost 6,000 of shop and garage a little cooler.
Picture is the shed and what we've used from the left side in the first two months.  Missing only that little dip in the middle from being full at start of this season.
Next time I'll cut the wood shorter and get three solid rows in a little fuller and easier than I've done two (sometimes three) rows so far.

Overall pretty pleased with the Garn.  We've stayed much more cozy than in the past with one traditional inside woodstove.


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## hedge wood (Nov 30, 2022)

Grigg   Good to hear ever thing with the Garn is good. Hope the guy that welded mind when built, was long gone before yours was built. I open the door to my Garn barn very slowly ever time I go to reload and hope water not running out on the floor again. Made it past the year mark of the last leak. I hoping for a good winter with no leaks.  Have a good holiday season.


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## mynx (Dec 4, 2022)

hedge wood said:


> Grigg   Good to hear ever thing with the Garn is good. Hope the guy that welded mind when built, was long gone before yours was built. I open the door to my Garn barn very slowly ever time I go to reload and hope water not running out on the floor again. Made it past the year mark of the last leak. I hoping for a good winter with no leaks.  Have a good holiday season.


That’s funny! I do the same thing after my rust out disaster the year before last. Every time I go in to make a fire, I cautiously peak all the way around looking for water. Thankfully, none so far. I guess the 27 ft.² of plate that we weld it in is doing its job. When I was looking through the OP’s Photos, I was thinking that if mine had been enclosed to that extent, I would never have known about the leak until all hell broke loose. Mine is in a dedicated building with 3 feet all the way around and 8 feet in front. I have 5 feet of space over the manhole so I can access easily.  I strongly recommend a periodic water inspection! I too am very happy with my unit now that it is functional. I hate 4000 ft.² of house and 1000 ft.² of shop and sometimes my greenhouse. I live in the upper peninsula of Michigan and burn about 10 cords per year.   This year I have really nice dry hardwood and it’s amazing how much less wood i use.  And with temperatures in the teens and 20s, I burn two fires per day each with about a dozen good maple or oak splits. I keep my temperature between 140 and 180. I try never to let it go below 140 because there is a bit of a temperature drop between the boiler and the house.


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## Grigg (Dec 4, 2022)

mynx said:


> ...When I was looking through the OP’s Photos, I was thinking that if mine had been enclosed to that extent, I would never have known about the leak until all hell broke loose...


I thought about that and the front sill has a bunch of saw kerfs in it to let water out of the enclosure, at least that's the idea.  Hope to never find out.


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## sloeffle (Dec 5, 2022)

mynx said:


> I try never to let it go below 140 because there is a bit of a temperature drop between the boiler and the house.


If you have good pipe in the ground you should see about 1° per 100'.


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## mynx (Dec 5, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> If you have good pipe in the ground you should see about 1° per 100'.


On a slightly different topic, have any of you found a wireless surfacemount temperature sensor that you like? I would really love to have my temperature information accessible in my house so that I don’t have to trudge through the snow to check up on things. It would be a real bonus if I could check it remotely as well when I’m traveling.


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## sloeffle (Dec 5, 2022)

mynx said:


> On a slightly different topic, have any of you found a wireless surfacemount temperature sensor that you like? I would really love to have my temperature information accessible in my house so that I don’t have to trudge through the snow to check up on things. It would be a real bonus if I could check it remotely as well when I’m traveling.


There's a multitude of them. Inkbird,  Firboard, and mocreo seem to be popular ones. Personally I went with a PID controller but I can't monitor it remotely, I do have some alarms that will go off if my water is getting too cold etc. I'll probably do a control by web device next year for my system.


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## mynx (Dec 5, 2022)

sloeffle said:


> There's a multitude of them. Inkbird,  Firboard, and mocreo seem to be popular ones. Personally I went with a PID controller but I can't monitor it remotely, I do have some alarms that will go off if my water is getting too cold etc. I'll probably do a control by web device next year for my system.


Thanks for the recommendations. I looked at those, but not them are really what I’m looking for. I would like some thing that I can connect a surface mounted temperature probe from my outlet and inlet pipes to and ideally send remotely. The ladder is not a dealbreaker because I could always put a camera on the screen. But I do need some thing that I can connect probes to.


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## peakbagger (Dec 5, 2022)

There are wireless barbeque grille monitors for sale on Amazon for cheap. Just a couple of thrermocouples and whatever is needed to communicate to wirelessly.


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## Tonty (Dec 5, 2022)

That’s what I use. They make a more basic one, also, but this one has more options. But it will cost more than the aforementioned barbecue probes
Edit: first link doesn’t work. Here’s a new one:
UbiBot WS1 Pro WiFi Temperature Sensor,Wireless Thermometer Hygrometer,Temperature Data Logger with Alerts, Remote Humidity Monitor,IFTTT(2.4GHz WiFi only) https://a.co/d/22Ibby0


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## brenndatomu (Dec 6, 2022)

peakbagger said:


> wireless barbeque grille monitors


This...many of them will go 300' line of site...just tape the probe to the pex line and insulate over it...gives fairly accurate temp readings.


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## salecker (Dec 6, 2022)

Someone once used an old iphone's camera to "watch his temp gauges.
He would just access the phone and see what his gauges read


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