# Air lever on Englander Madison - 50-TRSSW01



## Michael Cardillo (Oct 11, 2015)

My Englander Madison has an air lever in the middle of the stove on above the front door.  When the lever is pushed in, the air is on full.  When the lever is pushed out, the air is cut down more and more as you go out.  The lever also turns left and right.  When the lever is pushed in all the way (full air), the lever will turn to the left but then pushes itself right back to the right.  However, when the lever is pull out, even slightly, and you rotate the lever to the left, it stays in that position.  Does anyone understand what this rotation to the left and right does?

Also, is there a primary damper on this stove or just this air control?  I can not find a damper.


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## begreen (Oct 11, 2015)

The air lever does control the primary air. There is no flue damper or other air control. This stove has a start device called AAS. It's operation is explained on page 17 of the manual:

_This unit also offers a new feature. When loading the stove for a long low burn, you can set the air control damper to allow the unit to heat up and get a good burn going before the air is closed off to the low position. Simply pull the rod out to low and turn it counter‐clockwise until you hear a slight “click” (about a quarter of a turn). When it is ready the damper will shut itself. This will work for low and medium low settings._

Here's more info in this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/englander-madison-stove.131845/


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## spirilis (Oct 11, 2015)

Also see my thread here-http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/esw-madison-pics.146903/

I discuss a little about how the AAS works.  Pushing the air control in all the way pushes the air damper past the "S" bracket that latches the AAS, so it will fall back to the right.  This can be used to cancel the AAS feature if you change your mind and don't want to use it.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 16, 2015)

Thanks for the insight, however last night, I set the air lever about half way, turned it to the left, and waited. The stove reached 600 degrees with a magnet thermometer placed on the top middle of stove and stack temps were 800 degrees read with a probe thermometer 18" above top of stove. After 35 minutes and these temps on the stove, you can imagine, It was very very hot in the house. Needless to say the lever did not click back into position on its own. I had to manually adjust it. Am I doing something wrong.

I had a good coal bed and two splits that were caught on fire. The secondary burn tubes were even working, which my wife thought looked cool 

Please help


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## spirilis (Oct 16, 2015)

Michael Cardillo said:


> Thanks for the insight, however last night, I set the air lever about half way, turned it to the left, and waited. The stove reached 600 degrees with a magnet thermometer placed on the top middle of stove and stack temps were 800 degrees read with a probe thermometer 18" above top of stove. After 35 minutes and these temps on the stove, you can imagine, It was very very hot in the house. Needless to say the lever did not click back into position on its own. I had to manually adjust it. Am I doing something wrong.
> 
> I had a good coal bed and two splits that were caught on fire. The secondary burn tubes were even working, which my wife thought looked cool
> 
> Please help


Hard to say.  The AAS spring is in the back, so it's the back of the stove that needs to get hot...

I personally think the AAS is more appropriate for *reloads*, not initial starts.  After going through a burn cycle the stove is more uniform in temperature so the AAS spring will have a better chance of de-latching the air control.  Was this an initial start?


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 16, 2015)

It was an initial fire.  I started the stove using split up 16" 2x4's. By split up I mean i take a chop ax and chop the 2x4's into 3 long pieces.  I had 10 pieces and paper in the stove for about 10 minutes and then put two medium sized logs on top.  It reached a bit above 1/2 up the firebox.  I let those catch first and then activated the actuator/lever.


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## spirilis (Oct 16, 2015)

Michael Cardillo said:


> It was an initial fire.  I started the stove using split up 16" 2x4's. By split up I mean i take a chop ax and chop the 2x4's into 3 long pieces.  I had 10 pieces and paper in the stove for about 10 minutes and then put two medium sized logs on top.  It reached a bit above 1/2 up the firebox.  I let those catch first and then activated the actuator/lever.


Gotcha.  Fwiw I haven't done too many fires in mine yet but none of the "initial start" fires have triggered the AAS yet.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 16, 2015)

Have you noticed any smoking coming into your house when you go to reload the stove. At this point, if there is not an active fire and just coals or wood is still catching, if. I open the door smoke comes in.


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## spirilis (Oct 16, 2015)

Yeah that happens if the firebox is full of smoke.  If there isn't much smoke I don't notice it much, but honestly I've never seen a stove that doesn't let a little smoke in the house when you open the door.

Better chimney draft should help but it can only go so far.  Cracking the door open slowly can help.

Well that and only reloading when it's down to coals... if there's any flame or smoke in the firebox it's not time to reload yet.


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## Silenced38 (Oct 17, 2015)

I believe last year. Enlander told me that it needs a few heat cycles to break in the aas spring. But mine was still eratic at the end of last season.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 17, 2015)

Yesterday, Englander told me that after a certain manufacture date they started putting counterweights on the actuator in the back of the stove. He seemed to think its either that or a faulty actuator.

Also, do you think the blower really works all that well? I am using the one that came with it. I don't seem to feel a difference in temps in the room or further away from the stove. Do you think it would work better without the side heat Shields?


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## Silenced38 (Oct 18, 2015)

I dont use the blower. Except when the stove gets really hot. Just to help cool it off. I might try adding a weight to mine.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

Rather than experimenting can you get the proper weight and weight attachment location from Englander support?


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 18, 2015)

If anyone uses a magnetic thermometer, where do you have it located on the stove? I want an accurate reading of the stove as a whole. Right now I have it located on the top of the stove top just in front of the flue where the pipe comes out. It's reading very hot and wondered if that's the most accurate temps. I am trying to see if maybe the stove is not getting hot enough for the actuator to engage or disengage for that matter.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 18, 2015)

I just experimented with the magnetic thermometer. The stove reads between 500 and 550 on the top of the stove in front of the stove pipe. When I move the thermometer to the top back left of the stove, where the actuator is, it is now reading 350. The temperature change happened in 6 minutes. Do you think that might be why the actuator is not disengaging?


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

It's relative to what the spring on the actuator is set to. If it is 350F then it would actuate. If it is 450F then it would not.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 18, 2015)

begreen said:


> It's relative to what the spring on the actuator is set to. If it is 350F then it would actuate. If it is 450F then it would not.


Can I manually set that temperature gauge? Is there a knob or something back there?


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

I don't think so, but word is that Englander is now adding a weight to make it more sensitive. I'd give Englander support a call to see if they are offering an retrofit fix.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 18, 2015)

I wanted to see if the AAS would work.  So, this evening I stacked the stove with some bark and 2 medium sized splits.  I pulled the air lever all the way out and set the actuator in place.  I placed my magnetic thermometer on the front left top of the stove.  Not sure where else to put it.  The stove has now reached 625 degrees.  The AAS did not disengage itself, however, I tapped the lever slightly in to be about 3/4 of the way out and it disengaged, but only when I tapped it.  Do you think something is wrong with the mechanism?  That was a trial and error and it seems not to work.  I am going to call ESW tomorrow and discuss this with them.  Let me know know your thoughts please.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

It could be that the mechanism needs to break in. If so I'd take the stove top up to 650F.  That said, I agree with calling Englander. If the AAS doesn't trigger than how will it get broken in?


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 18, 2015)

Where would you place the magnetic thermometer?  I have had it in three places on the top of the stove and all read differently. Please let me know your advice as to where I should put the thermometer.

Thanks so much.  I'm getting a bit frustrated now. If this AAS thing doesn't work, I am returning the stove to lowes as a defect and will heat with NG.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

I'd locate the thermometer on the top a few inches in front of the flue collar. The AAS is just an aid, it does not affect the primary function of the stove which is to heat. I can appreciate your concern, but hopefully the stove still is heating well. Our stove has the early EBT control on it. I tested its functionality and didn't like how it affected startup. It's had a piece of aluminum tape over the intake for the EBT for 7 years now. I still love how the stove heats and am happy to see that a few years back PE addressed this issue.


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## spirilis (Oct 18, 2015)

That's interesting, it needed a bump.  Wonder if it'd be possible to pop off the heat shields and put some graphite lubricant on the air control flange to help with that (not sure if graphite is the right thing, don't know how hot it can get back there)

Anyway, ditching the stove over this feature seems odd to me, as the firewood is quite a commitment to procure... but if you do have NG and it's cheap, I would have totally gone with a freestanding gas stove myself.  Someday if I buy a house with NG that'll be my first heating mod.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2015)

Graphite lube sounds like a reasonable try.


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## Silenced38 (Oct 18, 2015)

If i pull the air control all the way out it does somtime stick. So pull it all the way out set the trigger. Then bump it in just a hair. That way there is no tension on it except the trigger.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 19, 2015)

Great, thanks for the suggestions. I will try the lubricant tomorrow afternoon as it is supposed to be warm here. In the meantime I am going to call ESW and get more feedback.  Thanks again.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 20, 2015)

UPDATE  Just spoke with a Tech Support Agent at ESW.  The gentleman asked me for the serial number and date of manufacture.  My date of manufacture is 08/15. "He instantly told me, you have a faulty damper system and we are sending you a new one."  I asked him how he knew that.  He said something about before and after my manufacture date they did something to the lever in the back of the stove that controls this system.  He also said that it should have worked from day one and should not have to be "broken in".  I will receive it in 2-4 business days and from that point will see if the system works properly.  

Anyone who has this stove that is still under the 1 year warranty, you have the opportunity to call them and receive a new damper system if it qualifies for one.

I will keep you updated as far as if it works or not.  Please keep your fingers crossed


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 20, 2015)

UPDATE  Just spoke with a Tech Support Agent at ESW.  The gentleman asked me for the serial number and date of manufacture.  My date of manufacture is 08/15. He told me, "you have a faulty damper system and we are sending you a new one."  I asked him how he knew that.  He said something about before and after my manufacture date they did something to the lever in the back of the stove that controls this system.  He also said that it should have worked from day one and should not have to be "broken in".  I will receive it in 2-4 business days and from that point will see if the system works properly.  

Anyone who has this stove that is still under the 1 year warranty, you have the opportunity to call them and receive a new damper system if it qualifies for one.

I will keep you updated as far as if it works or not.  Please keep your fingers crossed


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## spirilis (Oct 20, 2015)

Mine is 6/15.  Guess I should call and ask if mine's included...


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 20, 2015)

Silenced38 said:


> I believe last year. Enlander told me that it needs a few heat cycles to break in the aas spring. But mine was still eratic at the end of last season.


Silenced38,

If you stove is not under warranty anymore and you would like, I will take a picture of my current damper system when I take it off, next to the new one so we can all see the difference.  I remember hearing something about ESW adding a counter weight on the piece in the back.  You might be able to add one once you see where it should go.  I will do that as soon as I get the parts in this week.


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## Silenced38 (Oct 20, 2015)

Michael Cardillo said:


> Silenced38,
> 
> If you stove is not under warranty anymore and you would like, I will take a picture of my current damper system when I take it off, next to the new one so we can all see the difference.  I remember hearing something about ESW adding a counter weight on the piece in the back.  You might be able to add one once you see where it should go.  I will do that as soon as I get the parts in this week.


Ok. Thanks. Ill call and see if mine is covered.


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## spirilis (Oct 20, 2015)

Pic of my stove's AAS damper lever from my ESW Madison pics thread:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/attachments/20151001_133038_resized_1-jpg.162852/

Curious to see what you get.  That slightly oval-ish shaped thing next to the latch looks like a sort of counterweight to me but maybe something's missing?
Can't recall my serial#, will have to check tonight and call them tomorrow to see.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 20, 2015)

Spirilis,

I'm not sure but mine looks exactly like yours.  I'm curious to see what is different as well.


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## spirilis (Oct 21, 2015)

I called up asking about the possibly faulty damper, the tech didn't have any idea what I was talking about.  He took my serial# and info and told me to keep an eye on it so I'll give the AAS another try in a week or 2 when the weather gets frigid again.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 21, 2015)

Sorry to hear that.  Ive called three times and all technicians say, "I don't know much about that stove yet because its a new item." I told them exactly what was happening.  I light the fire, get a good coal bed, restack the stove and use the actuator and wait.  Nothing ever happens.  I have to bump it in order for it to work.  That shouldn't happen.  He is the one who told me I have a faulty actuator in the air lever system.  Again, when I get it, I will post a picture of it vs what I currently have.  If nothing happens, I am going to attempt surgery myself I guess.


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## spirilis (Oct 21, 2015)

Michael Cardillo said:


> Sorry to hear that.  Ive called three times and all technicians say, "I don't know much about that stove yet because its a new item." I told them exactly what was happening.  I light the fire, get a good coal bed, restack the stove and use the actuator and wait.  Nothing ever happens.  I have to bump it in order for it to work.  That shouldn't happen.  He is the one who told me I have a faulty actuator in the air lever system.  Again, when I get it, I will post a picture of it vs what I currently have.  If nothing happens, I am going to attempt surgery myself I guess.


Hmmm, I do vaguely recall the "bump" quirk the first time I really fired it up during the break-in fires.  So mine is probably afflicted too.  It did work correctly on a reload but come to think of it--the metal had probably expanded by then, so it's probably more of a cold-start issue due to the metal having not expanded enough (and an additional weight, if that's all the new damper has, would potentially solve that).


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 21, 2015)

Bad news...I think.  My parts magically arrived today, a day after my phone call.  They sent me the following parts:  Damper release lever and Thermostatic actuator assembly.  Both parts look exactly like what I have on my stove now.  No different than the pictures that Spirilis shared with us in this thread.  The damper release lever has a straight head screw that attaches some sort of counter weight.  When that straight head screw is slightly loosened you can move the "counter-weight" to the left or right, which may give more weight where you want it.  I am putting that "counter-weight" all the way to the left, to make the lever lighter.  The reason for this is so when the spring moves to disengage the release lever from the damper assembly, there will be less resistance.  I also purchased powered graphite lubricant from Walmart today and will be lubricating the screw that the damper release lever rotates on, as well as where the damper release lever comes into contact with the damper assembly.

I hope this makes some sense.  Sorry I did not have better news for you.  The parts look nice and are not rusty like my original parts were.  I will try the new parts out and hope for the best.

Oh yeah, I broke one of the screws that holds the Thermostatic Actuator Assembly in the stove.  I had to take the burn tubes and insulation out and take the screw out from the inside of the stove.  Not my day but I have to get it running again.  

Why can't stuff just work   My wife says I have too high of expectations of everyone.


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## spirilis (Oct 21, 2015)

Thanks for the update!  Can that counterweight be adjusted with the damper in the stove or do you have to pull the whole thing out?

Sounds like I'll just try the graphite one of these days and see how it goes.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 21, 2015)

spirilis said:


> Thanks for the update!  Can that counterweight be adjusted with the damper in the stove or do you have to pull the whole thing out?
> 
> Sounds like I'll just try the graphite one of these days and see how it goes.


Yes, the counterweight can be adjusted with it in the stove.  The straight head on the screw is facing out.  I am even thinking of putting a bit more weight on it if it doesn't work.  Let me know how it goes for you as well.


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## stoveguy2esw (Oct 22, 2015)

just got off the phone with the OP, seems we managed to install his actuator 180 out, the tab need to be at about 7 oclock, his was at about 1 oclock so as it heated it was moving AWAY from the trigger instead of towards it, so, the AAS would not drop


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## begreen (Oct 22, 2015)

Thanks Mike! Can we get a picture posted of the correct assembly and position for the tab?


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 22, 2015)

begreen said:


> Thanks Mike! Can we get a picture posted of the correct assembly and position for the tab?


Yes, please stand by for the picture and an explanation.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 22, 2015)

EUREKA

The wrong way picture is courtesy of SPIRILIS (thank you) who graciously gave us pictures of the air level assembly when I first opened this post.  No offense was meant by naming the picture wrong way, because mine was assembled the exact same way.

Take a look at the correct way picture, you will see that the spring that is part of the Thermostatic Actuator Assembly is almost completely turned around the opposite direction.

Here is what I did:

1. First, I took off the Damper release lever using a socket (one bolt)

2. Next, I took off the Thermostatic actuator assembly using a socket (two bolts) WARNING be careful not to break a bolt in the stove like I did.  If you do, they are #10-1" sheet metal screws.

3. I turned the Thermostatic Actuator Assembly 180 degrees and rebolted it.

4. Next, I reattached the Damper Release Lever.

5. I then took a engaged the damper assembly by turning counter clockwise.

6. Finally I took a lighter and held it against the spring and the spring turned "CLOCKWISE" and disengaged the Damper Release Lever from the Primary air damper.

I just want to say thank you to all of you, especially to STOVEGUY2ESW for speaking with me today.

*Wrong Way*



*Correct Way*


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## begreen (Oct 22, 2015)

Thanks for posting. The pictures make perfect sense.


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## spirilis (Oct 22, 2015)

Oh, sweet, gonna have to fix that on mine too then 

How hard is it to move the spring?  There's a hex screw in the middle, do you just loosen that or something?
edit: nevermind, just looked at the pics again.  Just have to remove the two hex bolts and flip it around.


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## begreen (Oct 22, 2015)

Looks like we need to get some OJT on the assembly line.


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## spirilis (Oct 22, 2015)

Dang.  That thermostatic assembly's bolts are really too small/fragile for the job, and I'm guessing it's coated in soot/tiny bit of creosote on the other side so yeah.  Expect to replace those.

Already sheared the head off one:


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## begreen (Oct 22, 2015)




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## spirilis (Oct 22, 2015)

Got the 2nd one out, the ticket is to remove the front burn tube + baffles and spray some WD-40 or similar on the backside of the screws.  They slip through the threads easier that way.  So for newcomers trying to do this, just preemptively remove your front burntube + baffles and spray those screws...

On the other hand, the sheared screw will not come out with anything, vice grips or what.  The screws themselves are the same as the ones used for the burntubes (5/16" head), which are a little shorter than the ones used by the heatshields.  Not sure what to do here.  Gotta get new screws for it either way.  Probably need to drill it out (tried, but my bit keeps walking off the shaft).  It's in there pretty damned tight anyway.  Vice grips from inside the stove (where it can get a grip) don't do squat.

One screw would probably hold this thing in place well enough anyhow but...


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## spirilis (Oct 22, 2015)

Anyway here's a picture of the screws from inside the stove, with the front burntube removed + baffles removed.




To the upper right and lower left of the thermostatic actuator's body, spray those 2 with a touch of WD-40 or similar lubricant before you try removing the thermostatic actuator's screws from outside the stove.  It'll be less likely to shear/snap/break on you.

(The bigger hole on the right is for the bolt holding the S-shaped bracket, which I had already removed.  That could use some WD-40 too as it was a little rough getting out, but it's a much bigger bolt so less likely to break.)


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## BrotherBart (Oct 22, 2015)

Or just give them a good "tap" with a hammer before you back them out.

BB - Old helicopter mechanic


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## spirilis (Oct 23, 2015)

BrotherBart said:


> Or just give them a good "tap" with a hammer before you back them out.
> 
> BB - Old helicopter mechanic


Tried the hammer trick too.  Haven't tried the small sledge (kids are asleep, something to try later).


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## BrotherBart (Oct 23, 2015)

Whatever you smack needs to be in direct contact with the bolt/screw. Those look like sheet metal screws and a smack or two on the end of the screw driver makes them give up the fight.


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## Michael Cardillo (Oct 23, 2015)

As I posted earlier, one of my bolts holding the actuator broke off as well.  After removing the burn tubes and insulation on top, I squeezed a pair of vice grips to the sucker and just rocked back and forth gently.  It did not turn out, i thought I broke the other side in the stove too when the screw bent down inside the stove.  

I almost used a not nice word, as my 3 yr old daughter was "helping me" by banging a ratchet against the stove at the same time.

I would spray the broken bold with WD inside the stove. Wait a bit and then try vice grips and wiggling it out.  Just wipe up the WD when you are all finished


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## spirilis (Oct 23, 2015)

Alright well that was an unreasonable pain in the ass, but it's fixed.

Took a combination of hammer, vice grips, pliers, dremel w/ cutting wheel, drill with carbide bit, then regular drill bit and about an hour or so to get that stupid screw out.  Had to use a drill bit just slightly larger than would fit through the (surviving) hole to chase out the "swarf" remaining in the threads but a new pair of stainless #10-3/4" machine screws go in & out pretty well now.

On that note, @Michael Cardillo  I recommend putting in big !!WARNING!! notation a message on your previous post regarding how you fixed it that with "PLEASE REMOVE FRONT BURN TUBE, REMOVE BAFFLES AND SPRAY LUBRICANT ON SCREW THREADS INSIDE STOVE BEFORE YOU TRY TO REMOVE THEM" so newbies locating this thread know ahead of time 

Anyway, it's fixed now, and I tried Michael's trick with the lighter to get the AAS to delatch.  Looks good for now, will have to see later on when it gets cold out whether the spring is "calibrated" properly...


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## spirilis (Oct 25, 2015)

Definitely not calibrated properly.  AAS delatches at 144F stovetop temp.  Mike did say something about "7 o'clock" position, mine is more like the 9 o'clock position.  I'm assuming adjusting the spring is as easy as taking an allen wrench to the bolt in the middle of the spring?  There is also a nut inside the stove at the back of the thermostatic actuator assembly, maybe that tightens the tension on said bolt.

edit:
Well the allen bolt isn't metric fwiw, and it won't budge with pliers - probably do need to loosen the nut in the back of the thermostatic actuator in order to adjust it.  A job for a few days from now when it's warm out & the stove is cold...


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## spirilis (Oct 29, 2015)

Per Mike's suggestion, I tuned the AAS spring to roughly the "7 o'clock" position.  Tuning the spring requires loosening the nut on the backside and turning the bolt relative to the nut..... this last piece is the tricky part, and I found it easier to do by removing the Thermostatic Actuator assembly from the stove.  That was easy since I have anti-seize compound on my philips head 3/4" stainless screws...

Can't recall the socket size but you loosen the nut on the inside portion of the thermostatic actuator, which tends to rotate the whole bolt with it... I think the allen head is 3/16" according to Mike but I didn't have any SAE allen wrenches so I used vice grips.  Had to squeeze it down tight too.  The bolt & nut don't like to rotate relative to one another, so it requires some pressure and patience to tune it, then you tighten the nut (bolt rotates with it).  Likewise you have to pay attention to make sure the spring ends up in the right position once you're done tightening the nut since the bolt does rotate with it.  Obviously do this on a stone-cold stove so the spring is at its full resting position.

New pic:



No idea how well it works yet, might start a fire tomorrow night...


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## srchar (Oct 29, 2015)

Hi folks, 
Just joined today in order to rant about my Madison.  So I don't seem like such a jerk, I will first say thanks to those who have posted this great information!  The hours I've spent lurking here have helped a great deal with my liner install, selecting a wood stove, and gathering firewood.  

I picked up my Madison from Lowes just a few weeks ago.  It was $750 minus %10 because I had a coupon.  No complaints there!  My build date is 8/15 and serial is 003023.  Because of this thread I checked my AAS before firing my new stove and it was indeed backwards.  I made the repair but haven't tried the AAS yet because I'm still doing break in fires.

I get that it's a cheap stove, but I always get angry when I have to fix something that is BRAND NEW!  I have other small complaints with the stove but a defect that could cause an overfire (if you weren't paying attention) is a little too much.  And now we need to fix our new stoves instead of cutting firewood.  Ain't nobody got time for that!

Oh well, I still think the stove is a good buy and I am excited about running it this winter.  Rant over.  Maybe ESW could send me a cord of dry oak...


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## Michael6268 (Oct 29, 2015)

Why is there not a recall on the stoves I wonder? Maybe it's in the works. If not I think it's kind of irresponsible.


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## stoveguy2esw (Oct 29, 2015)

srchar said:


> Hi folks,
> Just joined today in order to rant about my Madison.  So I don't seem like such a jerk, I will first say thanks to those who have posted this great information!  The hours I've spent lurking here have helped a great deal with my liner install, selecting a wood stove, and gathering firewood.
> 
> I picked up my Madison from Lowes just a few weeks ago.  It was $750 minus %10 because I had a coupon.  No complaints there!  My build date is 8/15 and serial is 003023.  Because of this thread I checked my AAS before firing my new stove and it was indeed backwards.  I made the repair but haven't tried the AAS yet because I'm still doing break in fires.
> ...




have you fired this unit yet? the 7 oclock ish position is approximate, its only when the tab on the spring is pointed above like 2 to 3 oclock that its inverted, but looking at yours it looks like if it was reversed it would literally be too high and wold trip way too early, the spring can e adjusted somewhat by rotating the allen head screw to move the tab closer to 7 oclock if it doesn't trip quickly enough


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## srchar (Oct 29, 2015)

I made the spring look like Michael's "correct" picture in post #43.  I've done a few small break in fires but I haven't tried the AAS yet.  I tested the spring with a lighter after the adjustment and it tripped after a while.  I wanted to do the fix as early as possible to avoid breaking the screws. 

Come to think of it, the stove was warm when I took the picture, I guess that's why the spring is where it is.

I can't wait for it to get cold so I can really test this thing.  Looking forward to watching the lazy flames.


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## spirilis (Oct 29, 2015)

srchar said:


> I made the spring look like Michael's "correct" picture in post #43.  I've done a few small break in fires but I haven't tried the AAS yet.  I tested the spring with a lighter after the adjustment and it tripped after a while.  I wanted to do the fix as early as possible to avoid breaking the screws.
> 
> Come to think of it, the stove was warm when I took the picture, I guess that's why the spring is where it is.
> 
> I can't wait for it to get cold so I can really test this thing.  Looking forward to watching the lazy flames.


Makes sense, if yours originally looked like that when warm it probably looked a lot like mine did when cold.

I generally think even on a cold start, you should leave the air wide open with no AAS for 20min or so because that's when you truly have maximum primary air (the AAS doesn't *quite* match fully open airflow especially when the rod is far out).  I bet it's good to go just dampering down and turning the rod right after a reload though.


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## nal51511 (Nov 5, 2015)

Does any one know after what date (manufacturer date)  this issue was resolved?


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## spirilis (Nov 5, 2015)

Not sure but hold off worrying about this too much.  Mine was "backwards" but as I've discovered, turning it around doesn't calibrate it right either.  Have to wait for more cold weather to test again.


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## spirilis (Nov 9, 2015)

Alright, after a few fires I think I can say that *this* is what it should look like:






The original setting was more like 2-3 o'clock, so the worst I could say is ESW tuned it a bit too high (making it unreasonable to rely upon).  But it wasn't totally "backwards".  I tried the 7 o'clock position as mentioned earlier and it tripped before 250F, this is around 4 o'clock and seems to be about right.  Trips somewhere around 500-550F, meaning that the hottest spot on the stovetop is around 500-550F whereas other parts of the stovetop might be 450-500F.  Sometimes it won't make it there (and thus will never trip), but if I put a super-dry form of kindling or firewood mixed in such as a wood briquette (biobrick, liberty brick, etc) or pallet wood in the middle or lower half of the fuel load, when it eventually ignites (top-down fire) that usually provides the right stuff to "surge" the stove into the 500+F range so it kicks off a clean burn and settles down after the AAS trips with the air control all the way out.

I have yet to test this on a reload though, so I'm not sure how it'll perform there.  The vast majority of my burns are cold-starts anyhow.  If it trips too early on a reload then maybe the original setting was correct--but only for reloads.  In that case I'd probably re-tune the spring slightly counter-clockwise to between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock.

Overall though, tuning the spring is still a minor pain in the butt that works best if you can remove the Thermostatic Actuator assembly, so the whole ordeal of getting that out was still worth the trouble, if only to install new screws greased with anti-seize compound.


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## spirilis (Jan 3, 2016)

Last I tried using the AAS was November, and it wasn't working - it would trigger when it was cold.  Finally took it apart to see.

The "S-shaped bracket" that releases the AAS was sticking in the "up" position, probably due to all my fiddling.  I used graphite lube on its mating surface between the bracket and stove and bolt but I guess that didn't do the trick.  This time I applied some anti-seize compound, hoping this'll be the ticket:



The S-bracket does not stick anymore (before applying anti-seize I could get the bracket to stick easily by fiddling with it, now I can't get it to stick).  Don't crank down that bolt too much, just lightly tighten enough that the bracket doesn't have "too much" side-to-side play.  We'll see tomorrow night when I fire it up...


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 7, 2016)

hi guys,

seems I have some work to do here.

first off the "recall" is not a recall in any way shape or form. the mistake was made by one of my junior techs who was completely incorrect in his statement. there is no recall at all.

looking above at the picture that Sprillis provided in post #65 the tab is correctly positioned for a cold stove working with this setup ive gone back and done some testing down here in the lab and confirmed this position is correct. it is possible that a few of these stoves may have been shipped with the tab in the wrong position though if there were any I doubt there were many and they are adjustable so there would not normally be a need to replace them.

if you have any questions feel free to contact me.

Mike Holton
Senior Techincian
England's Stove Works Inc.
800-245-6489


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## Michael Cardillo (Jan 7, 2016)

spirilis said:


> Last I tried using the AAS was November, and it wasn't working - it would trigger when it was cold.  Finally took it apart to see.
> 
> The "S-shaped bracket" that releases the AAS was sticking in the "up" position, probably due to all my fiddling.  I used graphite lube on its mating surface between the bracket and stove and bolt but I guess that didn't do the trick.  This time I applied some anti-seize compound, hoping this'll be the ticket:
> 
> ...


How did it work?  It is sticking any more?  My AAS is triggering at approximately 150 degrees as well.  I haven't used it at all since my initial posts.  I am going to wait until after the burning season to mess around back there.  BTW.  How did you get the spring to move.  I was just bending the spring by turning the spring in the housing.  Probably the wrong approach I'm sure.  Any help would be good.  Thanks so much.

Mike Cardillo


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## spirilis (Jan 7, 2016)

Michael Cardillo said:


> How did it work?  It is sticking any more?  My AAS is triggering at approximately 150 degrees as well.  I haven't used it at all since my initial posts.  I am going to wait until after the burning season to mess around back there.  BTW.  How did you get the spring to move.  I was just bending the spring by turning the spring in the housing.  Probably the wrong approach I'm sure.  Any help would be good.  Thanks so much.
> 
> Mike Cardillo


Working pretty well now.  I did see it "lingering" around 500F a while before finally delatching but it was close... me touching the lever a bit dropped it but I tried re-latching, and it de-latched again after some fiddling, so I think it was just "on the cusp".  Both my wife and I have let it run with our full faith in the AAS and haven't been let down.

Getting the spring to move involves removing the actuator assembly from the stove, loosening the nut in the back (which is exposed to the stove), then CAREFULLY turning the spring's hex-head while holding the nut in the back steady (loosening the nut in the back typically rotates the whole spring+hex bolt inside the housing since the nut doesn't spin relative to the hex bolt without some force involved, as if there was loctite in the threads).

Hard to describe beyond that... will make sense when you fiddle with it.  Pay attention as you loosen that nut in the back, the spring will rotate a bit with it.  Then you have to adjust the spring relative to the nut (again, by torquing on the hex bolt, not bending the spring itself), and tighten the nut again.  Once you tighten the nut the spring+hex bolt will rotate with it into its final position, which may or may not be correct (so you might have to loosen that nut and go fiddling with the hex bolt a few times to get it perfect).  As @stoveguy2esw indicated above, the 4 o'clock position I posted above seems to be correct.


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## spirilis (Jan 7, 2016)

As a side note, I have found the stove cruises ideally by pulling the draft lever all the way out and then pushing it back in a smidge... maybe 1/2 centimeter worth max.  Keep that in mind when setting up the draft control for the AAS.  Just a tiny feed of primary air keeps the coalbed lively enough that the secondaries stay rollin' for hours and I still get nice burns (loaded ~26lb of wood at 10:30PM, big chunks of coals in the back of the firebox at 6AM).


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## spirilis (Jan 11, 2016)

Got a project together, with a 2" probe thermocouple in the flue pipe ~12" above the stove... here's a graph of a burn so far, using the AAS (I think it de-latched around sample #300):





Samples are every 5 seconds FYI.  I don't have stovetop info yet, need to buy a suitable thermocouple for that (the PCB I rolled can take up to 4 thermocouples)


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## pryornfld (Jan 12, 2016)

I just purchased a Madison stove and was wondering how I can tell if my damper is working properly. Seems I have to crack the door slightly before I get a good burn. Is this a result of poor draft or the damper not working? Also is there a way to make sure none of the stove pipe is leaking , especially around the joins? I have about 18 feet of chimney (prefab)

Cheers


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## spirilis (Jan 12, 2016)

pryornfld said:


> I just purchased a Madison stove and was wondering how I can tell if my damper is working properly. Seems I have to crack the door slightly before I get a good burn. Is this a result of poor draft or the damper not working? Also is there a way to make sure none of the stove pipe is leaking , especially around the joins? I have about 18 feet of chimney (prefab)
> 
> Cheers


Do you hear a metal-sliding/screeching sound as you move the damper in & out?  If so, it's working fine.  Can't say whether the AAS feature works or not (passively, without taking the rear heat shields off to inspect) until you've established your draft/etc works right and have experience using the stove manually (so you have a baseline for how fast the stove should heat up with your firewood in its current condition, etc).

Stove pipe leaks can be identified with a grill lighter, touch the flame near joints and see if the flame really gets sucked into them.


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## pryornfld (Jan 12, 2016)

spirilis said:


> Do you hear a metal-sliding/screeching sound as you move the damper in & out?  If so, it's working fine.  Can't say whether the AAS feature works or not (passively, without taking the rear heat shields off to inspect) until you've established your draft/etc works right and have experience using the stove manually (so you have a baseline for how fast the stove should heat up with your firewood in its current condition, etc).
> 
> Stove pipe leaks can be identified with a grill lighter, touch the flame near joints and see if the flame really gets sucked into them.



I hear the rod sliding and when I pull it out and turn in CCW I hear the spring. I just can't seem to get the proper draft. I have old wood that's been sitting outside for 4 or 5 years so I wonder if it could be the wood? I also have a piece of stove pipe coming off the flue, then turns into a 90 deg going into a cleanout tee, then straight up. Just wondering if I should just go straight up and avoid the clean-out tee? Getting really frustrated!!


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## pryornfld (Jan 12, 2016)

Just a quick question. I have the wood stove in my garage. The garage is not finished, just shelled in. (No siding, insulation on walls and the attic is left open, not closed in.) Could this be a cause of my draft problems?


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## spirilis (Jan 12, 2016)

pryornfld said:


> Just a quick question. I have the wood stove in my garage. The garage is not finished, just shelled in. (No siding, insulation on walls and the attic is left open, not closed in.) Could this be a cause of my draft problems?


I doubt it.  How are you starting the fire?  I like using a top-down fire, criss-crossed kindling on top of the splits or wood briquettes.  Heats up the flue super fast.


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## pryornfld (Jan 12, 2016)

I place two junks of wood parallel, place some paper in middle and then splits across. I wonder if I should remove the tee with the 90 deg and just go straight up? What else should I look for? If I remove the tee and go straight up , it will be about 16 feet total. Running out of ideas?


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## spirilis (Jan 12, 2016)

pryornfld said:


> I place two junks of wood parallel, place some paper in middle and then splits across. I wonder if I should remove the tee with the 90 deg and just go straight up? What else should I look for? If I remove the tee and go straight up , it will be about 16 feet total. Running out of ideas?


Oh, so 18ft includes the horizontal run?  If so definitely change it so it goes straight up if possible.  16ft is marginal on height I believe.


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## pryornfld (Jan 13, 2016)

This is my current setup. Up about 3 feet (approx.), into the tee, then up again for another 6 feet(approx.) , then into about 9 feet of prefab. Total run of about 18 feet. So you are saying I should just go straight up?


spirilis said:


> Oh, so 18ft includes the horizontal run?  If so definitely change it so it goes straight up if possible.  16ft is marginal on height I believe.


The only reason I had the tee was for easy clean-out.


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## spirilis (Jan 13, 2016)

pryornfld said:


> View attachment 171861
> 
> This is my current setup. Up about 3 feet (approx.), into the tee, then up again for another 6 feet(approx.) , then into about 9 feet of prefab. Total run of about 18 feet. So you are saying I should just go straight up?
> 
> The only reason I had the tee was for easy clean-out.


Yes straight-up is best.  What you can do for clean-out is remove the burn tubes and baffles from the stove, and clean the chimney from the top so everything ends up inside the stove (with door closed, easy to contain the mess) or optionally do it bottom-up with a Sooteater or similar (probably messier though).

Removing the baffles and burn tubes is a good exercise to do anyway, just so you're familiar with it.

Also for the present situation, be sure the baffles are pushed to the back (they're very lightweight, insulating vermiculite/ceramic 1/2" thick boards, and brittle, think like hard styrofoam that can withstand super high temperatures).  Not sure that would affect draft too much but it's worth mentioning.
Overall though, I do believe this stove is a bit "sluggish" to get started if you don't build a bulletproof kindling fire, preferably top-down so the kindling is very close to the baffles + burn tubes at the beginning.  Probably something to do with the design and airflow path.  All of my perfect turn-key no-fiddling-required fires are top-down fires with at least 2 parallel lines of kindling criss-crossed with newspaper and a quarter supercedar involved (and using very dry poplar split down with an electric 5-ton splitter).


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## pryornfld (Jan 13, 2016)

spirilis said:


> Yes straight-up is best.  What you can do for clean-out is remove the burn tubes and baffles from the stove, and clean the chimney from the top so everything ends up inside the stove (with door closed, easy to contain the mess) or optionally do it bottom-up with a Sooteater or similar (probably messier though).
> 
> Removing the baffles and burn tubes is a good exercise to do anyway, just so you're familiar with it.
> 
> ...


I took out the tee and ran the pipe straight up. I will try and light it tomorrow and see if that makes a difference. Didn't have time to do a good burn before I finished. Anyway I will post back tomorrow with my results. Wish me luck!!


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## pryornfld (Jan 14, 2016)

Seems to be working better now.Knock on wood!! It took me between 30-40 mins to get a good fire.Seems that pallet wood burns better than the firewood that I have.


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## spirilis (Jan 14, 2016)

pryornfld said:


> Seems to be working better now.Knock on wood!! It took me between 30-40 mins to get a good fire.Seems that pallet wood burns better than the firewood that I have.


Gotcha.  Any wetness in the wood makes starting a real bear... I've experienced it a few times recently with some splits that sizzled.  Fire was just lethargic getting to start until I tossed a few extra thin kindling splits on top to invigorate the secondaries better.


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## pryornfld (Jan 14, 2016)

Once I got a good starter fire going, I was able to keep the fire burning. I did notice that it ate through the wood. Guess I'll have to play with the damper a bit more. I'm back to work for the next 6 days so_  probably won't have another  fire till then. Hope to get the garage insulated soon so I can keep some of the het in.Thanks Again!!_


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## spirilis (Jan 14, 2016)

pryornfld said:


> Once I got a good starter fire going, I was able to keep the fire burning. I did notice that it ate through the wood. Guess I'll have to play with the damper a bit more. I'm back to work for the next 6 days so_  probably won't have another  fire till then. Hope to get the garage insulated soon so I can keep some of the het in.Thanks Again!!_


Yep once the stovetop (in front of the fluepipe a few inches and 4 inches left & right is the "sweet spot") is at least 450F I think it's worth pulling out the draft lever (turning it down) in steps, maybe 1/2 way at first to see how it responds then almost all the way (I pull it out to the hard stop and push back in just a tad, no more than 1/4 inch)

Wood should bake longer with mostly secondary flames in the upper firebox when the draft lever is out.  That's where the nice long steady burns happen.  So long as there is bluish flame at least before it's down to coals.


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## pryornfld (Jan 21, 2016)

I had my second fire tonight. I had a good base fire going, then it took about 35-40 mins to get the main fire going. Once I got it going, I managed to boil the kettle from a solid junk of ice that was left in it. I think once I insulate the roof, I can keep more heat in, thereby keeping the stove pipe warmer. I think this would help with the fire as the stove pipe is still pretty cold, and all of my heat right now is going straight into the attic.


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## pryornfld (Jan 24, 2016)

Just a quick question....how can I tell if I got a good draft? Is there a test I can do? The reason I ask is my glass door is really black on the bottom portion and I'm trying to eliminate a few things. I'm hoping it is wet wood, but I have no meter to check it with.


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## pryornfld (Jan 24, 2016)

Couple of questions...I noticed that you have a doghole in the bottom of your stove where the OAK is on the back. I don't think mine has this.Why would that be? I do have a hole , it's at the front of the stove by the door on the bottom. Is that the doghole for my stove. It is next to the two thin bricks at the front. Also, is there a way I can test the draft on my stove?

Cheers


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## spirilis (Jan 25, 2016)

pryornfld said:


> Couple of questions...I noticed that you have a doghole in the bottom of your stove where the OAK is on the back. I don't think mine has this.Why would that be? I do have a hole , it's at the front of the stove by the door on the bottom. Is that the doghole for my stove. It is next to the two thin bricks at the front. Also, is there a way I can test the draft on my stove?
> 
> Cheers


That's where the doghole is, yes.  The tool for checking draft is called a manometer I believe, I don't have one though.


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## spirilis (Jan 25, 2016)

spirilis said:


> Got a project together, with a 2" probe thermocouple in the flue pipe ~12" above the stove... here's a graph of a burn so far, using the AAS (I think it de-latched around sample #300):
> View attachment 171754
> 
> 
> Samples are every 5 seconds FYI.  I don't have stovetop info yet, need to buy a suitable thermocouple for that (the PCB I rolled can take up to 4 thermocouples)


Well after relying on the stove for the past week+, I can certainly say with confidence that the AAS works as advertised.  Used it every time now over this snowy weekend and it unlatches somewhere around 450+ with a solid secondary combustion inferno going inside the stove.  Had to use some anti-seize grease on the S-bracket a week or 2 ago when I took a closer look at the feature but since then it's worked solidly.


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## pryornfld (Jan 25, 2016)

Glad to hear you are enjoying the stove. I think the issue I might be having is not the chimney but the fact that my garage is uninsulated and it takes a long time for the stove to get up to temp.It is colder inside the garage than outside. I still have some adjustments to make on getting the perfect starter fire


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## Michael Cardillo (Feb 11, 2016)

Hello all, question, should the ceramic tiles above the burn tubes be all the way back or all the way forward? Hope your stoves are working out for you all. I have not been using the AAS too much. Spring needs to be adjusted. Very cold tonight. Take care


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## begreen (Feb 11, 2016)

As a rule the baffle boards go to the back of the stove.


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## spirilis (Feb 11, 2016)

Michael Cardillo said:


> Hello all, question, should the ceramic tiles above the burn tubes be all the way back or all the way forward? Hope your stoves are working out for you all. I have not been using the AAS too much. Spring needs to be adjusted. Very cold tonight. Take care


All the way back.


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## brenndatomu (Feb 14, 2016)

spirilis said:


> The tool for checking draft is called a manometer I believe, I don't have one though.


There are some over in the for sale section...(page 2...as of now)


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