# Hybrid car as a generator during power outage



## meathead (Jan 3, 2009)

Pretty good stuff

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/ecogeek/864/a-prius-can-power-your-home-in-a-snowstorm.html


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## savageactor7 (Jan 3, 2009)

Pretty good deal...what this country needs though is a way to produce a Prius for 15k so everyone manufacturers, workers and environment profit.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 3, 2009)

So, reading into this, how can we calculate how long it would take to charge a 12 volt battery with a 3kw generator?  Appearantly the inefficiencies of storing the energy and converting it are less than running the generator full time and not having the need for the power.  Granted a freezer and woodstove fan do not use much power.

Matt


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## meathead (Jan 3, 2009)

savageactor7 said:
			
		

> Pretty good deal...what this country needs though is a way to produce a Prius for 15k so everyone manufacturers, workers and environment profit.



The problem is the oil companies would not profit - and that may well lead to diminished pocket linings for the powers that be in the automobile manufacturing world. Check out the video "Who Killed the Electric Car" if you get a chance. It's worth the watch for anybody with even a mild curiosity with regards to preserving the environment.


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## meathead (Jan 3, 2009)

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> So, reading into this, how can we calculate how long it would take to charge a 12 volt battery with a 3kw generator?  Appearantly the inefficiencies of storing the energy and converting it are less than running the generator full time and not having the need for the power.  Granted a freezer and woodstove fan do not use much power.
> 
> Matt



Good call - it seems even if you were to be using more power, a larger power storage (ie larger or multiple batteries) might be the most efficient bet. Then all that would be left to do is rig up a system that sensed the battery charge and automatically kicked the generator on / off as needed for charging. I'm guessing the system used in hybrids could be easily adapted/modified for this purpose. 

It does mention he powered lights and a television as well - and still over the course of 3 days he burned only 5 gallons of fuel.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 3, 2009)

I thought of this too, but there has to be a breakeven point where the cost of deep cycle batteries is greater than the cost of the fuel.  Especially if you didn't have another use for the batteries.   

From a pure economic standpoint, a $22K generator that only uses 5 gallons of gas over 3 days isn't such a great deal.  Being creative enough to use what you already have in an emergency situation is the key, at least to my thinking.  It's too bad fuel injection tends to be complicated, or at least not suited for emergency situations.  It certainly helped the generator in question to be stingy in fuel consumption.       

Many, at least in my area, have one or two deep cycle batteries in their basement for boating use in summer.  A similar system should not be too hard to set up with a little thought.  How much energy could a couple batteries store?  Would a setup like this change the size of the generator a person was going to buy given a way to compare generators is run time at 50% load?   

Matt


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## jdemaris (Jan 3, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> Pretty good stuff



Seems a bit silly to me, unless you've already got the Prius and no other means of making power.

That article states "a bargain and a real smart grid solution."

That is a bit ridiculous.  A bargain?  There's not a hybrid on the road that, overall, that is as cost-effective as a conventional gas-engine or diesel car.  They have the illusion of being different and better due to hype and government support.  Take into account the production, maintanence, and disposal costs and they are much more wasteful than other types of vehicles. Then, on top of that - to decribe it as a "bargain" in the context of using it as a 3000 watt generator?  Just plain stupid.   I'm not saying stupid to use it, if you already happen to own one.  I'm saying the article is dumb.  As to paying the price for a Hybrid?  If the government wasn't involved, and they were sold by true-market values, and expenses, I doubt you'd ever see one again.


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## meathead (Jan 3, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> Seems a bit silly to me, unless you've already got the Prius and no other means of making power.



Oh, really...I was thinking of going out and buying a Prius and parking it next to the house just to use as a generator :roll: And why would you have to have no other means of making power? He burned 5 gallons of fuel modestly powering his home for 3 days. You know of a generator capable of that that costs less than a prius? 



			
				jdemaris said:
			
		

> That article states "a bargain and a real smart grid solution."
> That is a bit ridiculous.  A bargain?  There's not a hybrid on the road that, overall, that is as cost-effective as a conventional gas-engine or diesel car.  They have the illusion of being different and better due to hype and government support.  Take into account the production, maintanence, and disposal costs and they are much more wasteful than other types of vehicles. Then, on top of that - to decribe it as a "bargain" in the context of using it as a 3000 watt generator?  Just plain stupid.   I'm not saying stupid to use it, if you already happen to own one.  I'm saying the article is dumb.  As to paying the price for a Hybrid?  If the government wasn't involved, and they were sold by true-market values, and expenses, I doubt you'd ever see one again.



You think hybrid cars have the illusion of being superior because of hype?!? Are you kidding me? Hype is a minute long video clip of a chevy silvarado screaming over the mountains with fishing gear and 2 tons of gravel in the bed. What is the last hybrid commercial you remember watching 2 seconds after it is over?  What their multi million dollar advertising staff can’t come up with anything that makes the image stick? I remember the brawny man. I remember the pine sol woman. I remember the tricks Rabitt and the leprechaun from the lucky charms commercial. But wait...who makes hybrids? Everyone? You mean other than the Prius? Nah can't be I don't remember adds for any of them. 

I won’t even get in to the government aspect of the argument. 

http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/

really, check it out even if it isn’t your thing. It is interesting to see. 

The expense of production argument is the same argument manufacturers used when switching from solely electric power to hybrid power. Even going so far as to use the high price of electric technology as reasoning for scratching their electric models and putting that technology into their hybrids…so the technology was too expensive to produce on it’s own but if you add more technology and hook it to a gas motor the cost levels out? 

If anyone is around when we run out of oil or the right people find a way to make money without it – I bet it takes all of 5 mins for some amazing new tech to spring onto the market. All they will have to do is dust it off and take it out of storage.

And the guy from the article had a dayum good idea and did it up.


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## jdemaris (Jan 3, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> He burned 5 gallons of fuel modestly powering his home for 3 days. You know of a generator capable of that that costs less than a prius?



It's kind of hard to tell, sitting at a computer screen if you are serious, being silly, etc. 
The guy with the Prius was using a very expensive car, with a very expensive battery bank - as a 3000 wat DC generator.   You can buy a new genest for $200, and a $500 battery bank and accompish the same thing.   Granted , you also need an inverter - but so did the guy with the Prius.  Nothing particularly impressive about his fuel consumption.  You can do as well and better with a portable inverter generator.


 [/quote]
You think hybrid cars have the illusion of being superior because of hype?!? Are you kidding me? 
 . . .  But wait...who makes hybrids? Everyone? You mean other than the Prius? Nah can't be I don't remember adds for any of them.  [/quote]

In cases, including flatland rural driving, there's little to no advantage to a hybrid. In very cold climates?   Most people I know have to run their gas engine to get decent heat.   In certain areas where  lots of braking is going on, and ergo - lots of braking energy to harness - some short-term gain.  As far as cost, I'm not talking about just the direct and overt costs, I'm also talking about the long-term.  Buy a Prius and see what's it worth 10 years from now, what it costs to fix and what it costs to get rid of it and dispose of, "properly" as the EPA sees it.   Also consider the huge carbon footprint involved to produce the battery packs and a few other items just to get a hybrid out the door.  Overall, hybrids have larger carbon footprints than conventional cars, gas or diesel. 

The idea of a hybrid is not new, not even close. Ferdinand Porche was building front-wheel drive gas-electric cars in the late 1800s (Porsche-Lohner Chaise made in 1899).  From everything I've read, there is some short-term advantage to hybrids in urban areas - but overall and collectively - yes, it's hype targetted at the ill-informed - at least when it comes to mechanics and physics.

And, about your call for electric cars?  That electricity has to come from somewhere.  As of yet, we haven't found too many "free" energy sources.  Most have their price, one way or the other.  As a society, we tend to think and act short-term, and constantly "rob Peter to pay Paul."


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 3, 2009)

China is supposed to be releasing an electric car sometime soon.  It's supposed to cost in the low 20's and is made by a company with 3 letters in it's name.. . BHA?  I can't remember if the last 2 are correct.  

Supposedly it plugs into a standard 110 outlet.   

The thing I have never heard anybody mention regarding these cars is what it does to your electric bill.  Seriously, have you calculated how much it would cost to run a 1500 watt space heater all day long for a month?  1KWH costs me almost 20 cents after all the taxes and fees.  What would it cost to charge a car up every night?  It would be nice to charge it up at work, but how long do you think they would agree to that?  Maybe a month or until the first electric bill comes in?

Matt


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## meathead (Jan 4, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> It's kind of hard to tell, sitting at a computer screen if you are serious, being silly, etc.
> The guy with the Prius was using a very expensive car, with a very expensive battery bank - as a 3000 wat DC generator.   You can buy a new genest for $200, and a $500 battery bank and accompish the same thing.   Granted , you also need an inverter - but so did the guy with the Prius.  Nothing particularly impressive about his fuel consumption.  You can do as well and better with a portable inverter generator.



You can buy a 3000 watt genset for $200.00? 

Right - all you have left to do is rig an electronic ignition to your genset portable generator and then rig that ignition to a system that senses the charge of your battery bank and shuts the generator off when the bank is charged and turns it back on when the bank needs charging. Not sure what the cost for this system would be - maybe someone could do it with tinfoil and a hairclip but it would cost me and just about anyone else money and time. Of course you could just buy a charge monitor for your battery bank and go outside to shut the generator off when charged. I wouldn't take your coat and gloves off when you get back inside though because you still have to go back out to start it up when it needs charging. With your $500 battery bank the neighbors will be wondering why you keep wandering out into the snow every 15 minutes and your generator will be running so frequently that I doubt you'll make it far on your 5 gallon can of fuel. And then of course you still have to construct a shed for your battery bank or drill into your house and store the batteries inside and the generator outside because we all know how unsheltered batteries react to the cold. The cost here is climbing rapidly, and you still haven't gotten a car out of the deal. And once again you seem to be approaching your argument like someone is suggesting buying a prius as a generator. I'm not. I never did. I said it is a pretty good deal a prius owner found a second use for his vehichle. It is.  

And all of that aside - I asked if you knew of a generator that would modestly power a house for 3 days on 5 gallons of fuel or less and doesn't cost a sum nearly equivilent to the prius. Only thing I know of that accomplishes this feat is solar panels - and they 'aint cheap. I didn't ask if you could find a cheaper way to gerry rig the same systym - which as of yet you haven't done. 



			
				jdemaris said:
			
		

> And, about your call for electric cars?  That electricity has to come from somewhere.  As of yet, we haven't found too many "free" energy sources.  Most have their price, one way or the other.  As a society, we tend to think and act short-term, and constantly "rob Peter to pay Paul."



Most do have their price. Most of their prices are high. The GM ev1 introduced in the early 90's had a small fraction of the operating carbon footprint (the exact numbers evede my memory but they are shocking) of a gassoline powered automobile *when powered by electricity produced at a coal powered plant*. The worst of the worst and the electric still came out ahead - and it should have GM spent 1b on research and development specifically towards this purpose. The cost for a homeowner to power the car was equivilent to about $0.60 per gallon running on a very early in development nimh battery. Kind of like robbing texaco, pocketing some spending money and giving the rest to greenpeace.

And as far as hybrids having little or no advantage in most driving conditions - I couldn't agree with you more. As I pretty much said, I think they are a sham. Car companies have taken technology they claimed was too expensive to produce and not only continued producing it but actually further complicacted things by adding additional technologies to the mix. Over 30mph they're just another 4 cyl punching through the wind. Of course the ev1 in the early 90s was doing up to 90 mph and getting to those speeds quickly on electric power alone for 100 to 120 miles on a primitive battery pack that had a miniscule operating carbon footprint and a reduced operating cost for its leasers (leasers because no one was permitted to purchase one because then GM wouldn't have been able to take every single one of them back and destroy them as soon as it was clear they weren't leagally going to be required to offer a vehichle with no tail pipe in the state of California). 

My memory of the exact numbers and facts could be off here or there as it has been a while since I looked into any of this - but if you want to take the time to do the research you're welcome to - I think you'll find I'm well within the ballpark here.


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## meathead (Jan 4, 2009)

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> The thing I have never heard anybody mention regarding these cars is what it does to your electric bill.  Seriously, have you calculated how much it would cost to run a 1500 watt space heater all day long for a month?  1KWH costs me almost 20 cents after all the taxes and fees.  What would it cost to charge a car up every night?  It would be nice to charge it up at work, but how long do you think they would agree to that?  Maybe a month or until the first electric bill comes in?
> 
> Matt



I just mentioned it in my previous post - but cost to charge the ev-1 was calculated at the equivilent of $0.60 a gallon based on the ev-1's average range on a charge and the average mpg of similar gas powered vehichles at the time. I don't think any of these numbers would have changed drastically since the 90's except that the range of an electric seems like it would be substantially further with improved battery technology. California actually spent millions on charging station infrastructure allowing people to plug in while at work during the day. Consumers would have been paying much less for a charge than for the amount of fuel that would take them the same distance and it was shaping up to be a relatively convinient system, but it of course dissapeard when GM won its lawsuit against the state and stopped production of the cars.


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## jdemaris (Jan 4, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> You can buy a 3000 watt genset for $200.00?
> 
> Right - all you have left to do is rig an electronic ignition to your genset portable generator and then rig that ignition to a system that senses the charge of your battery bank and shuts the generator off when the bank is charged and turns it back on when the bank needs charging. Not sure what the cost for this system would be - maybe someone could do it with tinfoil and a hairclip but it would cost me and just about anyone else money and time.



Just bought a couple of brand new, 3500 watt gas-engine genets onsale from ALDIs. $199 each.
Very quiet, four stroke overhead valve engines, with full 20 amp receptacles which is kind of rare in small gensets (most are only 15 amps each).

Sounds to me like you don't have any hands-on experience with any of this.   Your argue in the style of a politician using common types of flawed logic - especially "reducing to the rediculous" , yet you lack hard facts.

I have two automatic backup systems.  None use any of the Rube Goldberg contraptions you mention.   A good, automatic, low-end sytem - IF you wanted all factory made parts would require something like - #1 A load-sensing, automatic combo inverter/charger like a Trace DR2412.   Four - eight 220 AH 6 volt deep cycle batteries,  and a means to recharge them. It has an engine autostart feature for those that want it  hooked to an electric-start generator. For that   total system if you buy all new, it can run around $3000.   If you make some of the stuff, and/or improvise, and/or buy used - it can be done cheaper.

My system at my farm and home uses two Outback full-wave inverters, a 5250 watt solar-electric array,and a large battery bank with Rolls-Surrette batteries. 
I also have a cheaper system used the Trace inverter/charger and is used at a remote camp I own. It is hooked to two to forur, 120 watt solar panels and also, a  large, automatic start, Fairbanks Morse gas-driven 17KW generator.  I paid less than $200 for the generator. I rarely start it unless I need some high amps for electric arc welding that the inverter can handle. If the batteries get low, however, it self-starts and charges them up. In most cases, just two of the 120 watt solar panels do all we need while we're there.  I have quick disconnects, and sometimes I plug in an extra two ot make a total of four hooked in parallel.

As to your mention of the my system drawing attention from neighbors?  Well, for one - I have no neighbors, thank God.   And, my system is always hooked up. No expensive Prius sitting near the house, with a cobbed up set up cables and an inverter of some sort hooked to it.  That, along with what-ever means the guy is using to get the power into his house and hooked to his applicance and toys.   Wonder why it is not accurately de



			
				meathead said:
			
		

> And all of that aside - I asked if you knew of a generator that would modestly power a house for 3 days on 5 gallons of fuel or less and doesn't cost a sum nearly equivilent to the prius. Only thing I know of that accomplishes this feat is solar panels - and they 'aint cheap. I didn't ask if you could find a cheaper way to gerry rig the same systym - which as of yet you haven't done.



That question can't be answered as asked.  That's why that article is silly.  It does not give any useable figures  - like how many actual watt-hours of power were made by the Prius on those few gallons of gas?  It's easy to write BS articles like that.  Leave just enough facts out so it can't be argued, yet - it seems to sound good.

The reality is - a well built diesel powered generator can make 14,000 watts of power for an hour on one gallon of fuel.  So as to your three gallons worth of power question?  A good generator can make 14,000 watts or power, steady, for three hours.  I guarantee you that the Prius, using its gas engine, is not near that efficient.  A cheap, bottom dollar 3600 RPM gas generator can make 1200 watts an hour per gallon. That is the very low-end of the scale. 

The key issue to getting your best money's worth from a fuel driven generator is to run that engine at its max. efficiency which is also usually at the peak of it's torque curve.  That means you work it hard and shut if down, and make sure the generator is sized for the job so it IS worked hard and not too big for the load.  If it sits just idling, it loses efficiency.   That's the beauty of a battery bank.  You mainly run off the batteries, and when low - let the genset quickly charge them up while it runs at max. efficiency.

By the way.  Many times we have camped for weeks with just a few batteries, inverter and two 120 watt solar panels.  I ran power tools, ran a Sundanzer 12 volt chest freezer, lights, TV, computer, DC water pump, and a DVD player - no problems and in poor New York state sun.  I could probably write and article in such a way to make that all sound very amazing, but it's not at all.


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## meathead (Jan 4, 2009)

jdemaris said:
			
		

> I have two automatic backup systems.  None use any of the Rube Goldberg contraptions you mention.   A good, automatic, low-end sytem - IF you wanted all factory made parts would require something like - #1 A load-sensing, automatic combo inverter/charger like a Trace DR2412.   Four - eight 220 AH 6 volt deep cycle batteries,  and a means to recharge them. It has an engine autostart feature for those that want it  hooked to an electric-start generator. For that   total system if you buy all new, it can run around $3000.   If you make some of the stuff, and/or improvise, and/or buy used - it can be done cheaper.



First off guy it fascinates me that you continue to insist on approaching this from a "why buy a prius to use as a generator when you could do it for cheaper" angle. I'll say it again - the point of the article and the point of my posting it is that it is pretty neat someone figured out a second use for their hybrid car. The article doesn't imply the prius could run a particle accelerator nor that it should be purchased for use solely as a generator and neither am I, but it sounds like it worked pretty well and even though the author didn't list the exact watts per hour produced by the prius I'm willing to accept it as a good idea that got the job done. In the end it cost the prius owner, who was able to keep his fridge, his woodstove fans, some lights and a tv going, the price of 5 gallons of fuel while his neighbors likely burned up much more over the course of 3 days with their portable generators without a whole lot of added comfort.

And Rube Goldberg contraptions? I'm saying the guy derived his power from the prius batteries, when the batteries ran low, the car automatically started and charged them allowing him uninterupted flow of power and when the batteries were charged it automatically shut off saving him fuel. The system you initially suggested as a superior replacement was a genset portable run to a battery bank. What I was pointing out is that to do what the prius did your proposed system still needed to automatically start when its battery bank ran low and automatically shut off when its battery bank was charged. Otherwise you have a generator cranking away regardless of the state of charge of the battery bank and you are wasting fuel.

I could be off here - I don't have as involved a system as you are using and I'm no expert as you pointed out - but doesn't your load-sensing, automatic combo inverter/charger just sense when the battery bank is full and stop charging, then sense when it is nearing empty and charge it up again? Does it actually send a signal to your generator and shut it off when it doesn't need to be running and then start it up again when the batteries need a charge? Your generator is running through the entire process even when the battery bank holds a full charge and the charger has switched off unless you manually shut the generator off right? Of course you can get a generator with auto start and stop - but the ones I know of are time programmable and start automatically only when power is out within their programmed running window then shut off when they reach the programmed shut off time. If you're going to bother running them through a battery bank and there aren't going to be solar panels involved, it would be more efficient to have the generator start and stop based on the battery bank's charge as it did in the prius. Tough to rig with a portable pull start generator.    



			
				jdemaris said:
			
		

> That question can't be answered as asked.  That's why that article is silly.  It does not give any useable figures  - like how many actual watt-hours of power were made by the Prius on those few gallons of gas?  It's easy to write BS articles like that.  Leave just enough facts out so it can't be argued, yet - it seems to sound good.



It does sound good. It sounds dayum good. It is dayum good. A guy decided to use his hybrid car as a generator during a power outage that lasted three days and the power provided by the prius kept his fridge cold, kept his woodstove blower going so he could be warm, let him use some lights in the house when he needed them and let him turn the TV on to check the news for when his power might be back. And hey while he was at it he only burned 5 gallons of fuel over the course of those 3 days. 

If you need to know the watt-hours produced by the prius in the article to think that's pretty cool then you're the one with the problem. If you want to argue it - argue it by doing some research on the prius battery bank and charging system and determine that it couldn't do what the article says it did. Show me that in fact his milk would have gone bad, his blower would have shut off, he couldn't have watched his TV and he couldn't turn a light on in the house using his prius as a generator. Or at least prove that in fact it would have required much more than 5 gallons of fuel. That would be the way to argue this article. Not by saying "well you could rig up a generator system that did the same thing for less money than this guy spent on his prius so obviously the article is silly".


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## Redox (Jan 4, 2009)

Gentlemen!  Settle down!  Let's look at the big picture...

The guy used a vehicle that he already owned to run his lights and fridge.  Good thinking.  If I had a hybrid, I might have done the same thing; any port in a storm works for me.  Is it cheaper to do this than using an inexpensive portable generator?  Apparently so and based on my personal experience with generators, this is believable.  As noted, generators use a lot of fuel just to make 60 Hz thus making their part load efficiency rather poor.  The new inverter generators from Honda get around this by using an inverter to generate 60 Hz with the engine running at a reduced speed.  This saves a lot of fuel and makes them much quieter as well but at a price; they aren't cheap.  Is it possible to make this whole thing more economical than the public utility?  Probably not.

I am fairly certain that the guy in the Yahoo article was just using an inexpensive 12 volt inverter to accomplish his feat.  We don't have specific numbers to compare efficiency, but I have an idea.  I witnessed a generator test where the diesel burned 74 GPH to make 1 Mw so the 1 GPH figure for 14 Kw is in the ballpark.  Using $.15 /Kw, this would cost about $2.10 an hour to run.  Using off road diesel fuel, it might be possible to keep ahead of the fuel cost (right now), but then you have to figure in maintenance and depreciation.  It probably wouldn't work out in the long run.  Would it be possible to design a generator that might be able to do this cheaper?  I believe so, but then you have the added expense of an inverter and controller.  I've been wanting to try this on my Kohler, but haven't gotten around to it yet.  Maybe this summer...

Inverters can be almost magical in what they can do, but they have their limitations.  You can't get more energy out of one than you put into it.  The Prius' generator is probably capable of over 10Kw, but I don't think you are going to get this at idle.  It does generate power over 200V but this has to go through a DC-DC converter to get 12 VDC.  I suspect this converter is limited to about 1 KW (a guess) as the car isn't designed to be strictly a generator.  If it were possible to tap into the 200+ volt side of the car's electronics, you might be able to get an inverter that can do more, but it will probably cost more than an equivalent generator set.

Hybrids are a sore subject for some, but do allow for increased efficiency in an internal combustion engine.  They aren't going to do diddly for you on the highway, but many of us have to drive in the city and they can help out a lot there.  Many new transit buses are sold as hybrids and this would seem to be an ideal application for them.  A plug in hybrid would be ideal for many of us, but is the grid going to support them?  The power companies are hoping so, with the advantage of tapping into them during peak times (grid tied inverter).  The future will tell.  Rumor has it the hybrid buses can be converted into 200Kw portable generators.

Hybrids are just the next step in the evolution of the motorcar.  If it doesn't look financially attractive to buy one then don't.  Toyota is pushing the envelope right now and I suspect that the Prius will evolve into a grid tied plug in in the near future, probably with government and industry support.  They are working the bugs out of the automobile part right now and will be well positioned for the next step.  The power grid is going to need to evolve if we don't want to be sitting around in the dark on hot days.

Resuming your regularly scheduled flaming now...

Chris


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## jdemaris (Jan 4, 2009)

meathead said:
			
		

> First off guy it fascinates me that you continue to insist on approaching this from a "why buy a prius to use as a generator when you could do it for cheaper" angle.



No, my approach, or initial comments are my reaction to the final comments of that article - calling it, and I quote "a bargain and a real smart grid solution."  That is simply rediculous.
A good use of a hybrid car the person already owns?  Yes, that's fine.  That, however, is NOT what is implied with those closing comments.  I've been reading garbage like that ad nauseum for many years and it's a shame it becomes newworthy.  Some jerk and clueless writer finds something interesting that has some merit, glorifies and skews it, simplifies it, and as a result clouds the issues.

I'll also add that another closing comment -  "only hybrids start automatically when they need to recharge their battery" is also wrong. 

I kind of wonder why Mr. Sweeny bought a hybrid car to start with - but it's not relevant to the subject.  He might be one of the few people that actually gets a benefit out of it - while other taxpayers make that possible.   We all pay taxes, partially to support wasteful projects - so I've got no problem with anyone trying to get something back for their money.  I did it with my larger solar-electric system.   I'll add that many aspects of government solar-incentives are scams in themselves  - but I won't waste time going into that here. 




			
				meathead said:
			
		

> What I was pointing out is that to do what the prius did your proposed system still needed to automatically start when its battery bank ran low and automatically shut off when its battery bank was charged. Otherwise you have a generator cranking away regardless of the state of charge of the battery bank and you are wasting fuel.



Many combo inverter/chargers have the built in, auto-start feature.  They've been around for a long time.  They can be setup many ways.  They sense battery bank voltage, and when needed, disconnect the inverter, start a generator, and then charge the batteries and run the AC demand from that generator.  All automatic, you don't touch a thing.  Also, the inverter itself is always automatic.  It is load-sensing, and when there is no AC demand, it goes into a sleep-mode.  Trace/Xanatrex had been the industry standard for years.  But now, with all the government solar-incentives around, many other companies are making them.  In fact, one of the most popular, Outback Co. - was started by a guy that got his start working for Trace/Xantrex. 
I'll add that now - due to government incentives for grid-tie only, most companies are focusing on grid-only inverters which are much more pricey since the AC power made must be perfect full-wave.



			
				meathead said:
			
		

> I could be off here - I don't have as involved a system as you are using and I'm no expert as you pointed out - but doesn't your load-sensing, automatic combo inverter/charger just sense when the battery bank is full and stop charging, then sense when it is nearing empty and charge it up again? Does it actually send a signal to your generator and shut it off when it doesn't need to be running and then start it up again when the batteries need a charge?



Yes, all fully automatic and been around for a long time.  First targetted for off-grid solar-electric people with battery banks.  As to what to use for an electric start generator?  Many options.  Even back in the 1950s, gas or LP driven standby generators were available with autostart.  Gas models use an electric choke, and with LP, no choke needed.  This way, an autostart relay fires them up, and shuts them down remotely.  As to newer stuff with small engines?   If you don't buy with the autostart feature, you can add it to many.  Simplest method is to convert to LP or NG.  Not so easy if using gasoline, is adding the electric choke.  Electric choke kits are not commonly available for all small engines, whereas LP  changeover kits are.




			
				meathead said:
			
		

> If you need to know the watt-hours produced by the prius in the article to think that's pretty cool then you're the one with the problem. If you want to argue it - argue it by doing some research on the prius battery bank and charging system and determine that it couldn't do what the article says it did.



I don't need to any research beyond the highest wattage output and the size of the gas engine being used.  The 92 cubic inch gas engine in the Prius is not going to make 3000 watts of power  anywhere near as efficiently as a generator and engine properly sized for 3000 watts.  It takes a 13-15 cubic inch engine to run at max torque curve and efficiency to make 3000 watts.  The Prius 92 c.i. engine it way too big.

Like I said before, if you already have the Prius - I can see using it.  Is it a wonderful, cheap, efficient answer to alternative household power?  Absolutely not.  Just another silly article written by someone that probably knows a lot less than the actual guy that hooked his car to his house.


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## jdemaris (Jan 4, 2009)

Redox said:
			
		

> Apparently so and based on my personal experience with generators, this is believable.  As noted, generators use a lot of fuel just to make 60 Hz thus making their part load efficiency rather poor.  The new inverter generators from Honda get around this by using an inverter to generate 60 Hz with the engine running at a reduced speed.  This saves a lot of fuel and makes them much quieter as well but at a price; they aren't cheap.  Is it possible to make this whole thing more economical than the public utility?  Probably not.



This was a big issue here going back maybe 10 years ago in my area.  I live in a rural dairy farming area of New York.  When power goes out, cows can get sick and die unless you've got a backup plan.  The day of the small farm with 5-10 small cows is basically gone.  A modern 100-200 cow farm often relies on electricity to get the cows milked twice a day.   How many people do you suppose it would take to milk, by hand, twice a day, 200 Holstein cows with udders twice the size of the "old fashioned" cows?  Can't be done.  So, if they don't get milked quick, many get sick and drop dead.  This is why a good dairy farm must have a back-up system.

In this area, maybe 10 years ago - the power companies got deregulated.  The common fear from many farmers was  - that now the companies would be much slower at emergency repairs, and much more lax with maintenance.  Well?  Yes, it has happened and all is true.  The power companies here -New York State E & G, and National Grid (formerly Niagara Mohawk) - are now owned by a firm in England and a firm in Spain.  Service has gotten awful.

Back to my point.  10 years ago, many farmers were looking beyond just having their large backup generators for periodic outages.  Many were so angry, they wanted to be free of the grid altogether and make their own power, all the time.   I won't go into all the details other to say that none were sucessful.   I did, however, get some awful good deals on generating equipment many got rid off during that period.

Now, there's another related thing going on.  A friend of mine who was previously an electrical engineer for General Electric has started his own company.  His specialty is - "bringing back to life" small, old, retired electric generating plants all over the USA and Canada.  At present, he cannot keep up with demand.  His biggest problem is hiring good workers.  I was offered a job, but I'd have to be away from home most of the time.  Not for me now. Maybe when I was a single and young.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jan 5, 2009)

"Many combo inverter/chargers have the built in, auto-start feature.  They’ve been around for a long time.  They can be setup many ways.  They sense battery bank voltage, and when needed, disconnect the inverter, start a generator, and then charge the batteries and run the AC demand from that generator.  All automatic, you don’t touch a thing.  Also, the inverter itself is always automatic.  It is load-sensing, and when there is no AC demand, it goes into a sleep-mode.  Trace/Xanatrex had been the industry standard for years.  But now, with all the government solar-incentives around, many other companies are making them.  In fact, one of the most popular, Outback Co. - was started by a guy that got his start working for Trace/Xantrex.
I’ll add that now - due to government incentives for grid-tie only, most companies are focusing on grid-only inverters which are much more pricey since the AC power made must be perfect full-wave.


Yes, all fully automatic and been around for a long time.  First targetted for off-grid solar-electric people with battery banks.  As to what to use for an electric start generator?  Many options.  Even back in the 1950s, gas or LP driven standby generators were available with autostart.  Gas models use an electric choke, and with LP, no choke needed.  This way, an autostart relay fires them up, and shuts them down remotely.  As to newer stuff with small engines?  If you don’t buy with the autostart feature, you can add it to many.  Simplest method is to convert to LP or NG.  Not so easy if using gasoline, is adding the electric choke.  Electric choke kits are not commonly available for all small engines, whereas LP changeover kits are. "


What is the auto start/voltage sensing  feature called?  I'd like to look into them further.  Is it something that can be added to a generator/system? 



Matt


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## jdemaris (Jan 5, 2009)

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> What is the auto start/voltage sensing  feature called?  I'd like to look into them further.  Is it something that can be added to a generator/system?
> 
> Matt



There are many inverter/chargers made by different companies with all the automatic features I mentioned. 

Trace - also known as Xantrex - now also known as Duracell - has made some very good ones that, on a relative scale, are  reasonably priced.  Especially the modified-wave models which are NOT allowed to be used for grid-tie systems.  So, they don't qualifiy for most solar-incentive programs.   As a result, they are selling cheaper.  Xantrex is now Duracell (just happened recently) and I'm not sure who bought who. Now adays the big money isn't for the small scale, off-grid people.  It's the people on grid getting government incentive money.

I can't  tell you about all the stuff Trace has made.  But, here's a link where you can download manuals for the DR series (free).  The DR is the cheaper, modified-wave inverter/chargers that I mentioned.  I have a DR2412 (2400 watts and 12 volts).   Download and read and you learn more. I suspect the DR line will get dropped soon, since it's not where the money is.  Especially with Duracell now involved and maybe, in control.  There are also companies that sell similar equipment minus the charger or inverter.

http://www.xantrex.com/support/web/prod/172/docdisplay.asp


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## sleepie (Jan 7, 2009)

what if we could devise such a generator that came on and off ,due to the batt voltage,,size it right,,,add an alternator to it,,and made some browns gas to increase the efficentcy and run time off 1 galon of gas????---just a thought---oh and could we scrub the heat off the water cooled engine---for heat in the house---maybe with a water storage tank--bring the tank to 190,,charge the batterys,,and make the hydrogen gas,,all at once---oh and i'm not done,,,,scrub the exhaust heat for hot water in the home----what say you???


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## tedt3124 (Jan 7, 2009)

You guys should do a little research before commenting on Prius. If you want to learn go to priuschat.com.
 At this time there is $0 tax credit for buying a Prius (they reached their limit). It is rated as one of (if not thee) most
 reliable cars according to Consumers Report. I've had mine for 3 years and have a lifetime average of 54 mpg with
 mostly highway miles (80/20) and long Wisconsin winters. Some of the Volkswagen TDIs are approaching this but
 not quite there yet. The disposal cost issue is a huge myth. Toyota will pay you to recycle the batteries IF they ever
 need replacing. The only hype I ever hear is from the anti-hybrid types which I just don't understand. It's just a car.
 get over it.

Ted


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## tedt3124 (Jan 7, 2009)

P.S. Schneider Electric (Square D...etc) bought Xantrex last September.

 Ted


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## jdemaris (Jan 7, 2009)

tedt3124 said:
			
		

> P.S. Schneider Electric (Square D...etc) bought Xantrex last September.
> 
> Ted



Yeah, Sneider bought most of it, but a smaller part was sold to AMETEK Inc.  Duracell still has some sort of "special agreement."

Kind of a coincidence, maybe - that Square D "QO" circuit breakers are about the only commonly found, consumer-lever, breakers that are rated for DC use, as well as AC.  If you're installing a solar DC electric system, it's the only DC breaker I know of that can bought off the shelf at places like Walmart.   Many solar-electric places repackage the QO breakers and jack the price up for DC use.

I suspect, one way or the other, things will change at Trace/Xantrex.  They had a reputation of making some really basic, rugged stuff when they were smaller.  But, I guess that's not always good as a business model.


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