# Getting ready to upgrade



## UPmqt (Oct 8, 2018)

Hello all, 

  We moved into our home 3 years ago and have been heating with a woodmaster 4400hd.  First winter didn't know what we were doing,  bought 20 full cord of maple.. burned it all.   Second winter bought  30 cord,  20 of oak 10 maple.   Burned 26 cord between the fireplace and the boiler.   We didn't use the fireplace the first winter.   This year purchased 30 cord again,  beech and maple.  (I also understand I'm burning green wood and that doesn't help but I'm cutting 30 cord solo and it makes it hard to get ahead) 
  We are heating our home which is 4400 sq ft and our DHW.  We start burning in September and burn usually until May.  We have a backup propane boiler/ furnace.   This winter I am doing everything I can to get things insulated and make things more efficient.   Right now with everything being the way it is I can't keep my little ones bedrooms at temp.   We have slant fin baseboard heaters.  I have considered changing a few of them out for runtal heaters to try getting more heat in their rooms.   In the meantime we know that we want a boiler that is more efficient.   
  So if we are looking at upgrading we need something that will heat 8000 sq ft of home (we are going to finish our basement in the future) and possibly a 40x60 garage.  The garage isn't necessary we could heat that with propane if we had to.  We would like to stay in our home for the next 30 - 40 years if possible.   Which means I need to use as little wood as possible.   I have been looking at 2 boilers but was curious what everyone would think a good option would be for me.   I have read through the previous 3 years of posts on this site and feel there are some people on here that will give me honest answers, and maybe some ideas I didn't know existed. 
  I would also like to use my existing plumbing on the inside of my home if possible. If my setup is horrible then I'm open to changing things if it can easily be done but I'm not tearing open walls to change lines type of fix. 

So very rambling long story made short 
1) needs to be more efficient
2) needs to heat my home
3) needs to be something I can manage into my golden years
4) needs to not need 30 full cord a winter...i cannot stress that last one enough... seriously it sucks

Sorry the post is a mess but it's been a long week already. 

Any help would be appreciated,  I want to do this right the first time so I need to get my ducks in a row,  hoping to do the upgrade in spring of 2020. Thought having a year to prep and get things in order would be enough time.   Hopefully maybe be able to find the best time of year to purchase also...I don't know if prices fluctuate with the seasons.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 8, 2018)

Hello in Marquette. Very good of you to due some serious planning.

Questions you will need to answer for others to give solid suggestions, and for your benefit in decision making:

Where the heating unit will be placed
Home heat loss analysis
Thermal envelope considerations
Soil conditions if trenching will be required
Firewood processing procedures and firewood acquisition
Installation (self or paid professional)
Time available to commit to running and maintenance
Combined unit or separate thermal storage tanks
There are other issues for sure but these are my first thoughts, others may have input shortly. Your requirements will include a rather large up front cost for your described heating needs. To minimize firewood usage, a gasification boiler will be best in your situation. The first two manufacturers that came to my mind are Garn-link and Lopper-link, there are many others but these two build hefty units that will last decades if maintained. The Garn units have self contained thermal storage and the Loppers need separate storage units. The following cannot be stressed enough (gasification boilers need seasoned firewood, less than 20% moisture content).

Best of luck in your planning and decision processes.


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## UPmqt (Oct 8, 2018)

Here a couple quick responses, I'm going to try doing the analysis real quick and get those numbers back.

1) boiler would have to be outside,  I don't want to deal with the wife yelling about a mess.   Outside she is a bit more lenient

Im not sure what you mean about thermal envelope 

2) trenching won't be an issue I will just get a back hoe

3) my firewood processing procedure is go out with a chainsaw and cut till the pile is gone.   I split the rounds that are too big to lift into the boiler by hand,  lost a finger tip learning that lesson.  I purchase from a timber company,  after spring thaw and the restrictions are off there are plenty of options to shop around with. 

4) depending on how much of the inside system i could use i think i could do most of the install myself as long as it came with detailed directions,  if it's like getting something from IKEA then i would hire professional help. 

5) I've been managing the 4400 loading twice a day,  on top of cutting all the wood so as long as whatever I go to equals less than that I should be ok. 

6) as to the storage im open to suggestions,  I'm sure there are pros and cons to both,  but I feel im a little behind in information to make a informed decision. 

As to the upfront cost we are aware it will be steep,  we are anticipating 20 - 50 k total... hopefully much less. 

I do have a plan to get dry wood,  but just isn't possible until we start process,  I know first winter will be cutting close...


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## UPmqt (Oct 8, 2018)

Ok so I'm not 100 percent sure I did this right,  but I measured every room length x width x height and entered in doors and windows and external walls into the calculator that I found. It also asked for ambient temp I set at 20 and internal temp I set at 72 then tallied the totals from every room. (I know it can get a lot colder than that but i would say that 20 is a decent average.) It gave me a heat loss of 40k.


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## maple1 (Oct 8, 2018)

40k? 8000 sq.ft.? 30 cords? Something not adding up there.  

What exactly do you have for underground piping?


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## gfirkus (Oct 8, 2018)

Build a detached garage to install boiler in. With that budget you could go unpressurized and get a garn, or pressurized and get a Switzer boiler. Gary Switzer has, if I remember right, a 2000 or 2500 gallon boiler he built to heat his shops. That thing was huge. He is very knowledgeable and worth a call. My planning process took 3 years from start to finish.


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## UPmqt (Oct 8, 2018)

We are currently heating just the 4400 sqft.  My underground piping is pex lines in 4 in corrugated pipe wrapped in some kind of insulation ... it looks like foam with a little bit of foil.   I would guess maybe 60 ft total underground before it comes into my garage.   The other thing I forgot too is that during winter the system I have also runs me about 150 in electric a month, extra from what i normally pay per month in the summer.   I agree none of this smells right...i have no idea what I'm missing but none of this adds to what it should.


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## maple1 (Oct 8, 2018)

You are losing a lot of heat to the ground, I bet, with that piping.


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## UPmqt (Oct 8, 2018)

I tried to get the best temp I could with a laser and im 165 at boiler end of pipe and the other end at the heat exchanger... boiler temp set at 170.  Without peeling apart all my insulation to get a perfect read I'd say it's relatively accurate.  Im also not 100 percent sure how accurate my controller is to where it monitors the temp at.


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## E Yoder (Oct 9, 2018)

There are several brands of gassers out there now that can be a plug and play option to your existing lines. Central Boiler Classic Edge, Heatmaster GS or G series, Crown Royal Pristine, Polar, maybe some more. 
I install the Heatmaster units, we've seen reductions in wood consumption of 30-50%. 
It would be worth checking out which of these have local dealers and looking at one in person. 
If some rooms are warm and some cold that's possibly a balance problem either from low flow or undersized emitters. 
My thoughts anyway.


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## TCaldwell (Oct 9, 2018)

I’d hate to guess but with a current boiler efficiency below 40 pct, suspect underground insulated pex and wet wood, your really only keeping yourself in shape.
 I’m a indoor gasifier and indoor wood guy with a dedicated outbuilding for the above. If you decide on a outdoor boiler as suggested by others remember frozen wood won’t gasify!


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## jebatty (Oct 9, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> We have a backup propane boiler/ furnace.


What is the BtuH rating of this boiler/furnace - BtuH input and output? Does it adequately heat to meet your needs?
What size pex is in the 4" corrugated buried lines?


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## maple1 (Oct 9, 2018)

The basics you will need to cover to significantly reduce your wood consumption are good underground piping (Thermopex or the like), a gasifying boiler, and dry wood.

Replacing the piping should be straightforward. Perhaps difficult depending on obstacles.

A different boiler would lead you to a set of decision making. Some good suggestions above. My preference, if the boiler could not be in the house, would be an indoor boiler in an outbuilding along with my entire winters wood. Then you get into deciding on storage or not - and if so, divorced or built into boiler? Pressurized or not? If it needed to be an OWB, I would first look at Heatmaster G series - what is available locally might come into play. I think they can be installed in a building also?

But, dry wood - that is the main thing that will hold you back. You just can't get much heat out of green wood no matter what else you do. So, if you can get the first 2 covered, I would do whatever I could to get ahead with dry wood. Actually, I would do this first and foremost no matter what else happens. Even if you have to hire someone to come in & process your wood for you until you get all sorted and ahead, it will pay off in the long run. I would guess that if this is the only thing you change, you will cut your consumption by 1/4-1/3.

BTW, 26 cords of green wood over half a year ballparks to around 90,000 btu/hr. If that wood was dry, that goes to 120,000 btu/hr.


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## Dutchie84 (Oct 9, 2018)

I'm no pro but



BoiledOver said:


> Thermal envelope considerations


 By Thermal Envelope he means, What do your walls, ceiling, and floors consist of as far as insulation and air barriers go?  ex. For my house 4000sq foot house I have R24 fiberglass batts, in the walls with 2'' of foam on the outside for an total of R32, with a poly vapor barrier on the inside, Ceiling is R60 worth of blown in fiberglass. Basement concrete walls are R 20 of spray foam, and basement floor is R10 ridged foam under the slab.


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## UPmqt (Oct 9, 2018)

I am currently aware that my situation isn't working at peak efficiency.   I am unable to do anything about the buried lines or the wood at this time.   On the exterior of the system I will not be re-using any of the existing setup,  I'm going to do new pex lines and re-insulate them with the trench lines/ spray foam, possibly moving the location of everything.   My current setup doesn't allow for me to make changes to my wood situation.   Paying to have the wood processed defeats the purpose of burning wood to begin with. I understand these are all valid points and concerns, but at this time I have to use the system as is.
   If I burned dry wood and it still leaves me with burning 20 cord I don't consider that a help either.   Im hoping to find a setup that will allow me to burn 15 or less.   I don't know if that is realistic but that is my hope.   If I start from scratch on the exterior than I'm hoping that I can reach that goal.  
  If re-doing my entire system with all the factors in place still leaves me burning 20 plus cord then I don't think this is worth doing.   We can just look at making propane work.   I also understand everyone is just trying to help and I don't want this to sound like I'm yelling or complaining nothing could be farther from the truth I appreciate that people are willing to take time out of their lives to help.   Having said that there isn't any way to say im not looking to fix my current setup on the outside.   If my manifold and plumbing on the inside is a poor setup then I will fix that at the time of changing out the boiler. 
  I know there are a ton of variables that without knowing it's a guess... but do I have a chance at burning less than 15 cord a winter if I could change the boiler or should I scrap the idea because it's unrealistic.


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## UPmqt (Oct 9, 2018)

As for insulation I don't know,  I didn't build the house... don't know who built the house... in the limited amount of space I have access to in the attic there is a ton of blown in.   The walls have fiberglass bats but I don't know how much.   Im working on insulation,  we had a squirrel problem so I know it's got issues.


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## Dutchie84 (Oct 9, 2018)

Again not a pro but



UPmqt said:


> Ok so I'm not 100 percent sure I did this right,  but I measured every room length x width x height and entered in doors and windows and external walls into the calculator that I found. It also asked for ambient temp I set at 20 and internal temp I set at 72 then tallied the totals from every room. (I know it can get a lot colder than that but I would say that 20 is a decent average.) It gave me a heat loss of 40k.



Typically you design your system for almost the coldest temperature that your house would see. Which you should be able to find the average online.  If you are designing for a heat source for your whole house then no need to go room by room. But if you are doing emitters then you need to know each room.  Did you include a value for air changes in your calculation?(This could have a big effect)  How tight is your house? How old is it?


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## brenndatomu (Oct 9, 2018)

TCaldwell said:


> suspect underground insulated pex


5* heat loss is a lot just from the boiler to the house! 
I'd bet the ditch is flooded and the pipe is totally soaked = no insulation value.
I know someone that had that very issue, they dug a sump and installed a sump pump on the low end just to see the difference it made (or not) and it made a huge difference!


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## maple1 (Oct 9, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> I am currently aware that my situation isn't working at peak efficiency.   I am unable to do anything about the buried lines or the wood at this time.   On the exterior of the system I will not be re-using any of the existing setup,  I'm going to do new pex lines and re-insulate them with the trench lines/ spray foam, possibly moving the location of everything.   My current setup doesn't allow for me to make changes to my wood situation.   Paying to have the wood processed defeats the purpose of burning wood to begin with. I understand these are all valid points and concerns, but at this time I have to use the system as is.
> If I burned dry wood and it still leaves me with burning 20 cord I don't consider that a help either.   Im hoping to find a setup that will allow me to burn 15 or less.   I don't know if that is realistic but that is my hope.   If I start from scratch on the exterior than I'm hoping that I can reach that goal.
> If re-doing my entire system with all the factors in place still leaves me burning 20 plus cord then I don't think this is worth doing.   We can just look at making propane work.   I also understand everyone is just trying to help and I don't want this to sound like I'm yelling or complaining nothing could be farther from the truth I appreciate that people are willing to take time out of their lives to help.   Having said that there isn't any way to say im not looking to fix my current setup on the outside.   If my manifold and plumbing on the inside is a poor setup then I will fix that at the time of changing out the boiler.
> I know there are a ton of variables that without knowing it's a guess... but do I have a chance at burning less than 15 cord a winter if I could change the boiler or should I scrap the idea because it's unrealistic.



IMO yes, you can burn less than 15 cords. But it will require a new boiler, new (PROPER) underground, and dry wood.

Green wood is your main killer in this case (along with underground). So if you can't change that at all you might as well just go fossil. But I know that in my situation, even if I had to buy all my wood already cut & split, I would still be way ahead of paying to heat with oil.

A lot of this comes down to personal preferences - you will need to be the judge of all that.


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## salecker (Oct 9, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> We are currently heating just the 4400 sqft.  My underground piping is pex lines in 4 in corrugated pipe wrapped in some kind of insulation ... it looks like foam with a little bit of foil.   I would guess maybe 60 ft total underground before it comes into my garage.   The other thing I forgot too is that during winter the system I have also runs me about 150 in electric a month, extra from what i normally pay per month in the summer.   I agree none of this smells right...i have no idea what I'm missing but none of this adds to what it should.


Your underground lines suck.They are going to make you cut a bunch of wood for no reason.
You should count on abondoning them and putting in new lines sprayed in place with underground rated spray foam.


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## UPmqt (Oct 9, 2018)

Ok I think there are a few misunderstandings with this... both ends of my underground lines read 165.  The 170 temp is strictly what my boiler says,  I have no idea where that reads from,  I do not think I have water in my lines.   Second im not trying to save my system,  i want to change out the entire boiler and underground lines, I would just like to salvage whatever I can of the interior system if possible.   If it's a poor design I'm willing to do whatever I need to short of tearing open walls.   I have been slowly working on insulating all of the pex in the system it's slow going but I am trying. I do not want to keep this boiler,  I want to switch to gasification,  I know I need dry wood,  I understand im losing energy but it doesn't explain why I can't keep one room warm.. when it is 40 degrees everything works great,  when it gets cold enough for snow I can't keep my zones at temp.  I know I'm low on efficiency but even if I had perfect wood im still not going to be overly efficient with the boiler I have. 

My home was built in 2006. It was properly insulated at the time.. we have good windows.. but one wall of our house has 4 8x8 French doors,  cathedral ceiling and 4 windows above those.   We also had squirrels in the house that nobody bothered to deal with so im not sure how many tunnels they made.   I have solved the problem of them getting in,  but am working on fixing the damage.


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## maple1 (Oct 9, 2018)

I suspect simply that the green wood is hampering your boilers ability to get & stay hot enough.

Have you tried upping your boiler temp to 180? You also wouldn't exactly need to have water in your lines to lose heat - that stuff is questionable from the get-go. Usually it will go damp-ish after not much time in the ground which soaks heat away.

There could be issues with your system but we don't know much at all about it. Yes it's slant-fin but is it sized correctly for the heat load? What is the temp of the water leaving the house back to boiler? Both leaving the house & entering the boiler?

I might also be leery about the temp measuring or accuracy of it. How is that being done? Accuracy in temp measuring is pretty important to trouble shooting & dialing things in.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 9, 2018)

Hey @UPmaqt, At this point you may be a bit overwhelmed from this thread but fear not, you can get to where you want to go.

This is just my opinion but I think you should first do a thorough heat loss calculation of all the space that you intend to heat. It is time consuming to get it right but the result will open your eyes to exactly what you will need to address your heating issue. If you were to hire out the design, build, and install, the contractor would begin with the heat loss calculation. Here is a link to an online calculator. I had to run through the linked calculator several times to get things accurate, seems that I misunderstood a few things in the beginning.

Numbers are numbers and accurate math gives you a clear picture in what is needed. Btu's are btu's and one pound of wood is equal among all species at the same moisture content. It can all be figured out prior to any purchase. First thing though is the heat loss results. Here is a snip from a chart that will give you heating degree days and winter design temperature for your area, needed in the heat loss calcs. The lower case letter D indicates the information was developed from office locations in an urban area, not from airport observations.


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## UPmqt (Oct 9, 2018)

https://www.omnicalculator.com/construction/heat-loss

This is the one I used. Is this functional for what I need or should I use something else.   The only thing I did was set outside to 20 instead of -8.  But if this calculator works I can easily re-run the numbers.   I was looking at the calculator you listed and I would just be guessing on all the values anyway because I don't know what I have for insulation. Add to being frustrated this doesn't bother me at all...I need to get everything right so when I do it i can be happy in the long run.


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## maple1 (Oct 9, 2018)

Something else to consider - if you have slant fin now, it's usually pretty cheap & easy to just add in more. Depending on your room and baseboard layout. Don't think it would hurt to oversize it. If you do say oversize zones, try to keep the places you need the heat the most at the start of your zones & places you might not need as much heat at the ends of the zones. Generally speaking. Or load up the ends of the zones with fins. I've done it a couple times at my place, just added more in where people were complaining that it wasn't warm enough. When mine was first installed, they usually ran the housing & pipe the full length of a wall but only put the fins where the design said. Which left quite a bit of housing & pipe with no fins. Slant fin can heat good if you have enough of it.


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## UPmqt (Oct 9, 2018)

I don't think I could add more slant fin...I would have to go vertical so would probably change to runtal... which I can do long term but definitely not before I upgrade the boiler


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## BoiledOver (Oct 9, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> https://www.omnicalculator.com/construction/heat-loss
> 
> I was looking at the calculator you listed and I would just be guessing on all the values anyway because I don't know what I have for insulation. I need to get everything right so when I do it i can be happy in the long run.


Yeah, you really need to get some accurate hard data in order to advance properly. The calculator link I provided will get you there if you do your due diligence. It may seem difficult but from reading your posts in this thread, I am confident you would be up to the task.

Like I said "It is time consuming", but well worth your effort. At your outer wall openings (doors and windows) it is easy to determine the thickness of the walls, (2x4, 2x6 and such). The 2x4 wall should be close to 5-1/2" because of exterior sheathing and drywall interior. The year of construction will also help in determining R-values, that is if building permits were obtained. But if that is uncertain, accessing a wall here and there is worth the effort, such as peel back the exterior siding a bit or looking around the edges of an electrical wall outlet. Insulation R-values can be determined with a little creativity on your part.

I see from the product brochure that your current heating instrument is rated at 125,000 btu's per hour, probably overstated. The conventional outdoor wood heaters are actually rather pathetic at actual efficiency. If in fact it is as high as 50% efficient, you see the value is more in the range of 65,000 btu's per hour. Considerably undersized for your demands. Gasification boilers running in their sweet spot can be over 70% efficient.

The benefits of using a gasification boiler with thermal storage are big. When a burn takes place, it goes full bore with little if any smoldering time. Think of the storage unit like a battery, charge it till full and then use the battery to exhaustion, or close to. Burning green or overly moist firewood wastes some of its energy removing the moisture in the wood. The moisture must be boiled off first and then the positive results commence. Low moisture content is critical in gasification boilers. Below 20% or the results are less than optimal and closer to mediocre.  Only in the dead of winter do I need to burn everyday. During the fall and spring the time between recharging storage can last days.

Since you are planning in advance, there are two things at the beginning. Heat loss results and preparing your firewood in advance. It sounds like you are getting log loads as we have available in the northern lower, 10 and 20 cord loads for $850/$1700. I am near Cadillac. Out here sits 3 years worth all the time. Once you get ahead of the 3 year curve, it is like one year at a time.

Once you get your heat loss results, you will be able to figure how much firewood you will need to process for one years heating.


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## UPmqt (Oct 9, 2018)

Getting a three year curve isn't a possibility for me.   I don't have the room for that kind of storage.   I have temporary storage space for the 30 cord in log form but once it's cut it takes up all my free space.   When I upgrade my building it will have to be my storage for the boiler and the wood.  

I know that sounds off but originally I was looking at a garn whs 2000 put in a 45' HC shipping container.. that would leave approximately 25x9x10 of storage for wood.   I would switch to running year round to make hot water leave some insulation off and then leave the doors closed with a fan to "kiln" dry my splits. Hopefully getting close to dry before winter.   On the roof of the container place active solar heating and solar panels to buffer both the electrical and heat load.   Don't think it would take a ton of either to help take the edge off. 

The other option was to just get a log boiler which is still gasification but takes whole logs.  Not really a lot of info on it,  maybe some people in the lower have information the company is based out of the lower peninsula.   My main concern is life of product and long term viability of staying in our home.   I don't mind burning a bit of extra wood if all I have to do is dump a cord into it with my tractor.   But the cost of that boiler isn't worth the price if it only lasts 10 years and gives up the ghost.

I will try to look into the other boilers people have suggested to see what might work the best for me. 

I will try to do a heat loss over the next couple of days, the areas I can't get answers to I will have to guess. 

In the meantime im going to continue to work on the insulation and figuring out the imbalances in the zones to see what I can fix.


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## maple1 (Oct 9, 2018)

Shipping cans get darn warm inside in the summer just from sun shining on them.


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## maple1 (Oct 9, 2018)

You mention imbalance. Does that mean some spots in the house get too warm now?


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## UPmqt (Oct 9, 2018)

The can can get warm im the summer but not sure if I would get hot enough to dry out green wood without a little extra sauce.   

None of the rooms in my house get too warm,  but some zones can get closer to temp than others and one of the zones stays warm in one room and not in another. 

Once the temp outside drops enough I set the temp on the boiler to 180.


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## maple1 (Oct 9, 2018)

The shutters on the fin enclosures have been pretty good for balancing for me.

Good luck on the squirrel thing, those varmints can wreak havoc.


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## Dutchie84 (Oct 11, 2018)

Do you have the heating imbalance issue when using just your back up boiler?


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## UPmqt (Oct 11, 2018)

Yes I do.   It doesn't matter what source im using.   There is very little usable exterior wall,  so I think that they didn't size anything they just put the biggest slant fin they could on every exterior wall and just called it best they could do.


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## maple1 (Oct 11, 2018)

Not sure it's possible, but you might also consider adding in some cast iron rads. They're pretty good at getting heat out of lower temp water.

Another factor that might be significant though is you don't want your boiler return water temps being lower than 140f. Lower temp emitters can easily make that happen - plus poor underground. Does your boiler have return temp protection?


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## UPmqt (Oct 11, 2018)

I would be shocked if I have any protection on any of the system.   As for rads I'm not sure if there would be a way to make those work with our space, that's why I was think runtal.


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## Highbeam (Oct 11, 2018)

Just to be sure, are your cords real cords? Like 128 cubic feet when split and stacked or some kind of wonky bush cord, logger cord, rank , Rick, or banana cord? 

30 real cords over 8 months is just about a cord per week. That would be on average with cold weeks likely seeing two cords per week.


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## UPmqt (Oct 11, 2018)

A logging truck showed up with 8 ft lengths 3 times. 

If 30 full cord is the norm then I just need to be done with wood.   It's going to be twice as expensive if not more burning propane but I can't keep cutting this much wood.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 11, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> A logging truck showed up with 8 ft lengths 3 times.
> 
> If 30 full cord is the norm then I just need to be done with wood.   It's going to be twice as expensive if not more burning propane but I can't keep cutting this much wood.


It does appear daunting for sure. Until you know what your btu requirements will be, you will just be guessing.  After an accurate heat loss analysis, you will know exactly what you need in terms of btu's per heating season. Once you have that information you can apply it to any heating fuel X (times) the appliances efficiency value to determine what direction you want to go. Could be pellets, solar, corn, propane, fuel oil whatever.


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## UPmqt (Oct 11, 2018)

Propane or wood.. so hopefully I can make this work.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 11, 2018)

There is a member of this forum located 200 miles due west of you @eauzonedan He heats with a Garn. See his post #10 in the linked thread. Maybe he can add some good info for you since you are in the same weather zone. Thread


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## brenndatomu (Oct 11, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> A logging truck showed up with 8 ft lengths 3 times.
> 
> If 30 full cord is the norm then I just need to be done with wood.   It's going to be twice as expensive if not more burning propane but I can't keep cutting this much wood.


I'm confused.
A logging truck came 3 different times with ~10 cords per load? Or a truck came once, with 3 stacks of 8' logs on it?
Probably the first, I don't think a semi can legally carry 30 cords worth of logs.

If you are using 30 true cords per winter, you are using 3 times what most OWB owners use in a winter...heck some use 10 cords for the whole year...including making hot water for the pool and domestic hot water all summer.


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## maple1 (Oct 12, 2018)

brenndatomu said:


> I'm confused.
> A logging truck came 3 different times with ~10 cords per load? Or a truck came once, with 3 stacks of 8' logs on it?
> Probably the first, I don't think a semi can legally carry 30 cords worth of logs.
> 
> If you are using 30 true cords per winter, you are using 3 times what most OWB owners use in a winter...heck some use 10 cords for the whole year...including making hot water for the pool and domestic hot water all summer.



If they are, they are doing it with the best underground piping, dry wood, and a good boiler. There's those 3 primary things again.

Seriously, if nothing can be done about the green wood thing, you might as well give it up & go fossil.


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## peakbagger (Oct 12, 2018)

Don't go the whole log option, it means you are doomed to burning green wood. Green logs can have darn close to negative BTU content. Logs take years to dry. Long splits are better than logs but still far worse than standard length firewood. Wood loses most of its moisture via the cut ends of the logs followed by the interior faces of the splits, the bark acts like a vapor barrier and limits vapor flow so the only way to water escapes is via cracks in the bark from the interior faces of the cracks. I used to have access to hardwood birch log ends from a dowel mill. They called them lily pads and were 4 to 10 inches long rounds from a log, they dried very quickly due to the large amount of cut surface area. Start looking at solar kilns, the biggest bang for the buck is get the wood drier as even a pound of water in log eats up a minimum of 1000 Btus.

The other thing to so is see if your utility offers an energy audit, many do for free or cheap. I am guessing you have significant infiltration issues increasing your heat load. Just because its recent construction doesn't mean its tight or well insulated. The cheapest heat is the heat you don't need because you eliminated the need to do it. Given its fall and the weather is getting colder, its good time to do thermal scanning to see if you have major gaps in insulation where it has settled.


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## UPmqt (Oct 12, 2018)

Yes 10 cord on a truck 3 times. 

As for the deficiencies in the zones im working on putting in circuit setters so I can measure the flow through my zones to see if my pumps are matching my heat load. 

 I keep getting responses stating why my system isn't working now.   I know it's not working,  I also don't plan on keeping the system that was the point of my original post,  I'm upgrading my boiler and the outside lines, Im not looking to fix any of that, I was hoping for options that I may or may not have already known about.  

 I understand I need a heat loss done and will work on that.  As for a whole log boiler as long as I could make it through a winter burning a max of 30 cord I would probably buy one tomorrow.   I don't care about the efficiency if I'm not doing labor for it, I could just sit in the cab of my tractor and push a button.   30 cord is still way cheaper than propane. 

If im doing the labor for it then I need to be around 10 cord.   I know I need dry wood,  I just don't have the space to be 3 years ahead.   If I do a boiler I would be looking to kiln dry it over the summer as previously stated.  

 If the reality is that my house won't allow for me to burn less wood then yes I will just have to do propane.   But its newer construction with good windows.   Other than the squirrels I don't think insulation is a major issue,  within the design.   But the house has dormers with bathrooms in them,  I have a 21 foot cathedral ceiling in my living room and almost 30 ft of french doors wall to wall with windows above that and an open loft on the other portion.   You can only insulate so much, that is just a lot of wasted space and a ton of glass.  It doesn't matter how much the squirrels ate.   I pretty much need to size for a 10000 sq ft house.   An educated guess should put me in the ballpark if this is possible.   If im barking up the wrong tree then there is no reason planning on an upgrade.   

I don't think this is a daunting task in any way.   It's just math,  I hate math,  but I hate cutting 30 cord more.   If the reality is I can upgrade everything and burn 20 cord,  then that isn't a win for me.   We are limited to wood or propane,  I don't think I could heat my home with less then 5000lbs of propane,  so I'm hoping to make wood work.


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## Dutchie84 (Oct 12, 2018)

So regardless of what you heat with you are having issues with keeping rooms warm. Tell use about you system. How it’s plumbed. Pictures are even better, everyone like picture. 


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## UPmqt (Oct 12, 2018)

This is the plumbing.


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## Dutchie84 (Oct 12, 2018)

Do you have a way to measure temperatures for each zone, both leaving and returning? An inferred gun would be good for this. 


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## UPmqt (Oct 12, 2018)

I already did that for the major zone im worried about. It went out at 165 came back at 142.   That is for my little ones.   I can measure the rest of the zones later.


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## maple1 (Oct 12, 2018)

That is a healthy dT. Ideally all zones would be about the same. It could be possible your zones aren't flowing enough. A symptom of that would be good heat at the start of the zone but then the heat doesn't make it around to the rest of the zone. But, i just checked your pics and i see zoned by circs, which should mean adequate pumping ability.

Could also just need hotter supply temps. 

Likely lots of maybes & could bes to come from all of us.


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## UPmqt (Oct 12, 2018)

That's why I want to measure the flow to see if it just needs to move faster. Im afraid it's moving to slow and im just losing my heat at the start of the loop.  Im just not sure how much faster I can go before I stop gaining. 

As for supply temps there is nothing I can do with my current system.   Yes I know that I can go to 180 and I'm set at 170 but it's 40 degrees outside so I try not to until it gets a little colder.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 12, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> I know it's not working,  I also don't plan on keeping the system that was the point of my original post,  I'm upgrading my boiler and the outside lines, Im not looking to fix any of that, I was hoping for options that I may or may not have already known about.


I get that and have based my responses towards your stated goal. The easy way to determine how much wood and which appliance will suite your needs is to know what your needs are. That will be answered by an accurate heat loss analysis. If it's not up your alley to complete one, hire it out. None of us here can answer what is the best for you unless we know how many btu's are required. If we knew that it will take 70,000 btu's over 24 hours during the coldest part of the winter, then we could make suggestions. The size and design of your home requires some solid planning for a complete and efficient HVAC system. 

If you change out your system and continue to heat with wood, it will be a big investment up front. Skimping on the design and engineering portion can cost you big headaches and more cash outlay further down the road. It may be that using wood will be the better option for you but how can you know without knowing? Once you know what the heat loss says, choose from the list of available fuels. Any appliance will have an output rating so you can easily size accordingly.

The image was snipped from this website: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/energy-content-d_868.html


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## UPmqt (Oct 12, 2018)

I understand I need to do a heat loss analysis,  I'm working on it.   As for the other sources we are already set up for propane so if we can't make wood work then we would just remove the boiler and buy 5 or 6 1000lb propane tanks so we could stock up early in the spring and hope it lasts the winter.  We aren't interested in any other fuel sources at this time.   I know propane is just about the most expensive fuel but it's labor free and we don't really have access to a lot of other options other than fuel oil or pellets.


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## Highbeam (Oct 12, 2018)

Pellet boilers are awfully easy too.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 12, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> Pellet boilers are awfully easy too.


Good idea! Here are 2 links, one is for a biomass boiler that uses chips, corn, coal or pellets. The other is for pellets from a place in Norway, MI. The boiler is rated at approximately 950,000 btu's and can be dialed down to 300,000. That should handle whatever you will be heating and then some.

Boiler brochure.

Pellets.

Still leaning towards firewood. The Garn 2000 claims to heat up to 10,000 sq ft with an 82% efficiency rating. No doubt with seasoned fuel wood..


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## gfirkus (Oct 12, 2018)

If you can’t be at least 2 years ahead in wood, you might as well give up the idea of heating your house with wood. It sounds like you want someone to tell you that you can burn fresh split logs. It’s Mother Nature, and guess who wins.


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## UPmqt (Oct 13, 2018)

To me I just want the best option.   For our situation I don't have the room to store that much dry wood.   If I could garn barn dry out ten over the summer then that is doable.   As for burning green I would only do that with a whole log burner and only if I could keep it close to or less than 30 cord.  I only would do that because it's zero labor. 
  As for the pellet stove that could be an option but every one keeps saying storage but that doesn't have a whole lot of storage does that mean I would just be pumping pellets into it constantly, or I still need additional storage.   Also is the crown royal a good stove, does anyone have experience with them.


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## UPmqt (Oct 13, 2018)

Also if anyone knows of any other pellet boilers they would recommend.


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## peakbagger (Oct 13, 2018)

A pellet boiler is a completely different beast. Unlike a wood boiler, A pellet boiler only burns when you need the heat. The fire goes on and off as you need heat. It is much closer to a propane or oil burner. Even a pellet boiler needs some additional maintenance over a gas boiler but not much as long as you get a bulk feeder for pellets. For about 20 K you can get a bulk feed pellet boiler an then add in installation. 

Given your insistence about burning unseasoned or poorly seasoned wood, the pellet boiler is far better fit for your use. Granted you are paying more for pellets and are dependent on a local supplier rather then your backyard but the premium paid for pellets offsets the very low heat output you would get from any wood burner burning poorly seasoned wood. It also is better for your families health and safety. Burning poorly seasoned wood puts a lot of pollution in your local air around the house. Carbon monoxide, various intermediate combustion products and high particulate are all in the cards burning green wood plus chimney fires are in your future unless you clean the chimney frequently (possibly a couple of times a winter).


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## UPmqt (Oct 13, 2018)

But we can't keep comparing it to what we have now.  We are getting rid of that so we need to compare everything to an alternate new boiler.. garn ... to pellet type or whatever other option someone suggests. 

Im currently loading my boiler twice a day,  I don't need a bulk feeder for a pellet stove,  I was more concerned with how much I have to burn to maintain heat,  not how many times I have to load.  Storage is always mentioned,  the pellet boiler I was linked to just doesn't have a lot so I was curious. 

I am not insisting on burning green wood, I don't want to burn green wood.  I'm just saying I don't have room to have 3 years of dry wood on hand. I did say I would burn green in a log boiler but only because it was zero labor.  I also don't get the wood from my backyard, i have to buy the fuel no matter where it comes from.   

All I was hoping for was people with real world experience with their type of system to give me options that I can look into.   If you burn pellets but after using your system you wish you would have gotten the other one you were looking at then i want to know what the other one was and why you wish you would have.   Whether it's gasification,  or pellet or whatever, or whether it's just a different brand than you bought.   There is a ton of misleading information on everything and a lot of numbers that aren't realistic.   Or the information that is available is a one page brochure, although it at least gets me a name so I can try finding more.


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## peakbagger (Oct 13, 2018)

A few last thoughts prior to hitting the ignore button

None of us are paid to give advice on a forum and at some point we decide the original poster is not worth the time to follow the thread and the thread withers away. I expect this point has been reached or will be soon. I do biomass for a living along with other fuels and have paid to take a course from arguably the best home/commercial heating engineer in the country, John Seigenthaler https://www.contractormag.com/hydro...nthaler-will-teach-you-how-apply-wood-boilers. I took a similar course from him on hydronics for heating.  I have a PE and on occasion do EPA tune ups on large biomass boilers. If you want to pay me $150 an hour door to door and my expenses I will tell you the same thing many folks including myself are telling you. Maybe you will feel better after writing me a check but the advice will be just about the same except I will take the time to do the things that we are telling you to do.

One of things that John S teaches is do not throw good money after bad unless you understand the entire heating system before you try to fit in a heating source. Several posters have told you the same thing in different ways. You need to start with heat loss calculations and an energy audit to see what the current load is and what it could be. We all guess you have some serious heat losses that need fixing or some very bad habits . Next you need to look at the distribution in the house and see if its designed correctly and if its performing to its design. Once you have a handle on that, you then need to make the decision if you are going to spend the money to fix the issues with the home or the distribution as that is going to substantially impact the size of the heating unit required. Many folks in this thread have tired to point you in this direction as we cant give you good recommendations until you do so. We are not there so we need to make guesses but it sure looks like we all are at the same conclusion that there are fundamental issues with your system that are causing you to burn way more fuel than you should. Until you take care of that the decisions on fuel type, system type and location are going to be wild swings.

My wild swing is that given the square footage of the house and your current experience is that you probably aren't going to be a wood burner. Given your house size and climate I am guessing a well designed system with dry wood is going to be a 8 to 10 cords. Unless you have a very rare reliable source of cut and split kiln dried or well seasoned wood you will need to season it yourself and that means 24 to 30 cords on the ground so that the wood can season for 2 years. That is not dumped in pile with a tractor that is cut and split. I know families that do this volume of wood and have done so for years but most dont and one person trying to keep up with that sort of tonnage is rarely going to do it for the long haul. Its going to be darn close to full time job and I expect with a family you have plenty of better things to spend your spare time on. 

Thus we moved to wood pellets. Putting a boiler of any type in a remote building introduces losses and trade offs. Given your wood volume based on poorly seasoned wood it makes sense to put a boiler in a garage but inherently that introduces heat losses into the system. Ideally you want the heat source in the heated space so when heat is lost, its lost into the space. A pellet boiler is then a option to put in a basement or even on the main floor in a utility room. That will probably buy you a 10% increase in efficiency on the low end and if you have typical issues with buried pipes if could be 20 to 30%. You are paying a premium to a factory to dry the pellets to bone dry and increase its density so that means less storage space. You will gain significant efficiency up front compared to burning unseasoned wood. You also dont need to worry about standby losses as the pellet boiler most likely only fires when there is heat demand. Given your current heat load I guessed that you will probably get sick of lugging bags down to a hopper so I assumed that bulk feeder is better option. A bulk feeder also allows the possibility of bulk pellet deliveries and more importantly the opportunity to go away for a few days. If you stick with standard hopper boiler, you or someone has to be at the house once or twice a day in cold weather to feed the darn pellets or use a backup heating source. Putting a bulk feeder in a side building keeps the sawdust and empty bags out of the house and buys you days/weeks before you need to fill the hopper.

Good luck and maybe some other folks have time to "push on this rope". I personally am done with it.


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## maple1 (Oct 13, 2018)

UPmqt said:


> But we can't keep comparing it to what we have now.  We are getting rid of that so we need to compare everything to an alternate new boiler.. garn ... to pellet type or whatever other option someone suggests.
> 
> Im currently loading my boiler twice a day,  I don't need a bulk feeder for a pellet stove,  I was more concerned with how much I have to burn to maintain heat,  not how many times I have to load.  Storage is always mentioned,  the pellet boiler I was linked to just doesn't have a lot so I was curious.
> 
> ...



If you have room for 30 cords of green wood, then you should have room for 30 of dry. Which would be 2 years supply rather than one - you don't really need room for 3 years worth. After a couple of years you would only be working half the wood per year you are now.

Also, trying to estimate fuel costs using a chart like the above combined with your experience with green wood will be hard to do - IMO with a cord of wood green BTUs can be around half of dry BTUs.

If you do have a good reliable source of pellets you should definitely check that option out. I don't here, so I didn't. There are quite a few on here with pellet boilers but you don't see them very often - mainly because they are just steaming happily along year after year with not much to talk about. Windhager is at our around top of the line - search that and you should find info. If you go pellet you might even be able to have the boiler in your basement, which would change a lot of things up for your thinking (like doing away with undergound) - they really are very close in operation to a fossil burner.

About your house system there is not a lot more to be offered I don't think without some more info, like accurate design sketch of the whole thing plus temp info everywhere. I don't think I am a big fan of zoning by circs though. I am zoned by zone vales, with only one circ, a Grundfoss Alpha. It is variable speed, varying by pressure. So you can tune flows in by adjusting the circ setting along with throttling flow with valves if needed. Once you get a better handle on what you have now and how it is or isn't working, one thing to consider that should be fairly easy to do might be to swap your circs for Alphas - then you can tune in the flow of your zones and if some need more or less than others it is simple to do. Plus they use less electricity. As it is now with the same circ on each of your zones, each zone would be flowing the same or at least trying to whether it needs that much flow or more or whatever.

Do you know if your system was professionally designed or not?


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## BoiledOver (Oct 13, 2018)

This pellet boiler may suit your needs very well, the largest output model (P4 105) is rated at 85,000 to 360,000 btu. You will see in the literature that they are rating by the Kw. A calculator here, to convert to btu's. Much less labor involved in the operation than a firewood boiler and this Froling is top shelf equipment. It has lamda controls which ramps the fire up and down as needed. This type of appliance is super efficient and as eco friendly as they come. Pretty sure @heaterman installed a couple of these units for one of his customers. I believe it was to warm the milking barn but am not exactly sure, there is a thread in here somewhere about the install.


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## maple1 (Oct 13, 2018)

I think those were Windhagers.


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## UPmqt (Oct 13, 2018)

I have temporary storage for 30 cord  that goes away when the snow flies .  I have permanent storage room for maybe 15 cut and split, but not until the pile is cut.. it needs to be in the same space.  Making it difficult to get ahead when until I stop burning green wood I need 30 cord but don't have the room to cut extra to get dry wood so I can quit burning 30 cord. 

Thanks for the suggestions on boiler options. I am aware there is footwork to be done in other areas of the system.   I work for a test and balancing firm so we are currently working through the issues.   Didn't realize that simply asking if there were suggestions on types of boilers I could look into to see if there was anything that could possibly be an option would cause this much friction.   I never said I was just buying, or that I was insisting on burning green wood I just wanted some info or experience from other users.   I understand that your time is important and never suggested otherwise.   I have stated repeatedly that I was working on getting the heat loss done and that I'm trying to get my zones figured out.  I understand that recommendations are going to be based off heat loads and losses.   But a simple look into the crown royal boiler and see what you think provides me with something to work with while im doing the rest of the stuff.  I will look into the crown royal, garn, lopper and windhagen and see what they have something that could work for my situation.   Thanks everyone for your help.


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## maple1 (Oct 13, 2018)

No friction here. 

There's a very wide range of asks in this place and a maybe even wider range of responses. Mainly due to the internet being in between - nothing replaces a first hand hands on look & see. Which all leads to a lot of weeding being needed on both sides.

Keep us posted & don't be shy about posting more questions & info.


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## Highbeam (Oct 13, 2018)

We have pretty cheap high quality pellets in my state so I’ve always wanted a pellet boiler. The pellet boilers do not need storage, have pretty huge onboard hoppers (or bulk feed options), modulate output to match your demand, burn a  manufactured fuel that is very compact to store and comes delivered ready to burn, and are at least as efficient as firewood boilers. The Europeans have really been doing the wood pellet boiler thing for a long time and have it figured out. 

The drawback is cost. Not that pellet boilers are much more than firewood boilers but both are very expensive. 

Oh and the exhaust pipe from a pellet boiler is smaller and easier to deal with than firewood. 

Windhager is a great brand. Search the forum for “pellet boiler” look at the installation threads for lots of pictures and peoples reasoning for choosing pellets. 

Oh and you can stack multiple pellet boilers together for big output or just get one boiler that’s big enough.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 13, 2018)

maple1 said:


> I think those were Windhagers.


Thanks for the correction. Here is a link to the thread.


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## BoiledOver (Oct 13, 2018)

@UPmqt   There is good information in the thread I linked in the previous post. Take a look at post #56 for some cost comparisons with propane.


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## nhtreehouse (Oct 14, 2018)

Since you were asking for boiler opinions, I'll chime in. I have both a wood boiler and a pellet boiler. Both are fantastic machines. The pellet boiler is a Windhager and is very simple and is extremely well thought out. It feeds itself, cleans itself, etc. Pretty sweet. The wood boiler is the Froling FHG shown in my profile picture. Also an amazing machine. Since storage was mentioned, I'm heating a portion of my wood boiler tank with the pellet boiler. Opinions vary on if pellet boilers need/want/desire/run better with or without storage. I find my burn times are about 2.5 hours with the pellet boiler and storage. Pellet boilers can also modulate and indeed a number of full euro systems do just that. I've got my pellet boiler setup to batch burn like a wood boiler.

In the end of the day, I believe the choice of fuel and storage is just a discussion on how to store energy, both in it's "native" form, and in the form of hot water. It's easier to scale pellets because the fuel is coming to you in a very low moisture content state. And you can get resupplies all winter. There is a commercial building near me with a dual pellet boiler setup and I think they chew through 60 tons a winter. That said, I believe there's a link in Siggy's pdf in the sticky section where a place in Quebec is burning hundreds of cords in two massive boilers. But those machines are loaded with overhead machinery. Pretty amazing stuff. Found the link, love the scale of it. 350 cords a year! 42" logs!

http://nebiomassheat.com/pdfs/2012/keyPrinciples/albrecht_boiler.pdf

I, too have taken Siggy's course and it is excellent. And I did a very comprehensive heat loss calculation on my place before I spent any money on the system. And, like yourself, I was dealing with a poorly designed and installed heating system. In my case, a 100k BTU propane hot air furnace with the heating duct on the exterior of the building. I would hazard a guess that there was some loss there! My heat load is way less than that and it ran about 50% of the time when the weather was in the 30's. Not a great design. If you have a lot of underground loss then you've got a big unknown in the equation - similar to my exterior heating duct. I recognized that early on and started to nail down just what heat load I had. Everything else follows, fuel choice, boiler type, distribution type, etc.

Everyone's advice has been excellent in that you need to get a better idea of the heat loss and your climate. The engineer who wrote the pdf linked to above did just that and is advocating for undersizing the boilers.

Good luck.


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## maple1 (Oct 15, 2018)

^ Some good feedback there.


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## Sparky978 (Mar 10, 2019)

nhtreehouse said:


> Since you were asking for boiler opinions, I'll chime in. I have both a wood boiler and a pellet boiler. Both are fantastic machines. The pellet boiler is a Windhager and is very simple and is extremely well thought out. It feeds itself, cleans itself, etc. Pretty sweet. The wood boiler is the Froling FHG shown in my profile picture. Also an amazing machine. Since storage was mentioned, I'm heating a portion of my wood boiler tank with the pellet boiler. Opinions vary on if pellet boilers need/want/desire/run better with or without storage. I find my burn times are about 2.5 hours with the pellet boiler and storage. Pellet boilers can also modulate and indeed a number of full euro systems do just that. I've got my pellet boiler setup to batch burn like a wood boiler.
> 
> In the end of the day, I believe the choice of fuel and storage is just a discussion on how to store energy, both in it's "native" form, and in the form of hot water. It's easier to scale pellets because the fuel is coming to you in a very low moisture content state. And you can get resupplies all winter. There is a commercial building near me with a dual pellet boiler setup and I think they chew through 60 tons a winter. That said, I believe there's a link in Siggy's pdf in the sticky section where a place in Quebec is burning hundreds of cords in two massive boilers. But those machines are loaded with overhead machinery. Pretty amazing stuff. Found the link, love the scale of it. 350 cords a year! 42" logs!
> 
> ...


I also have a Windhager Biowin. Can you explain what a "batch burn" is and how you set it up?


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## maple1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Batch burning is simply lighting a new fire when heat is needed and it burning wide open until it burns out about the time your heat has been fully replenished. I.e., not one constant fire that spends a lot of time smoldering.


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## salecker (Mar 10, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Batch burning is simply lighting a new fire when heat is needed and it burning wide open until it burns out about the time your heat has been fully replenished. I.e., not one constant fire that spends a lot of time smoldering.


Batch burning is more efficient if you have storage as part of you system


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## Sparky978 (Mar 10, 2019)

salecker said:


> Batch burning is more efficient if you have storage as part of you system





nhtreehouse said:


> I've got my pellet boiler setup to batch burn like a wood boiler.



Ok,
I now understand the batch burning concept. I was also wondering how "nhtreehouse" set his Windhager for batch burning? My install relies on my storage to send a start and stop signal to the pellet boiler when needed.


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## Highbeam (Mar 10, 2019)

Sparky978 said:


> I also have a Windhager Biowin. Can you explain what a "batch burn" is and how you set it up?



As treehouse used it, batch burning a pellet boiler just means running the boiler at high output (or most efficient output) level constantly to reheat his storage. Then shutting off until the storage cools. That is different than modulating pellet boiler output to try and match the heat load which varies and is  less efficient.


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## Sparky978 (Mar 10, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> As treehouse used it, batch burning a pellet boiler just means running the boiler at high output (or most efficient output) level constantly to reheat his storage. Then shutting off until the storage cools. That is different than modulating pellet boiler output to try and match the heat load which varies and is  less efficient.



So how does he run his PB at 100% output constantly? I would think that it would start to modulate at some point. Unless he actually watches it and when it starts to modulate he sends it into burn out mode.


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## maple1 (Mar 10, 2019)

Sparky978 said:


> So how does he run his PB at 100% output constantly? I would think that it would start to modulate at some point. Unless he actually watches it and when it starts to modulate he sends it into burn out mode.



'Then shutting off until the storage cools'


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## nhtreehouse (Mar 10, 2019)

Hi @Sparky978 ,

I have the Windhager set to maximum boiler setpoint, which I believe is 176. I have a conventional Thermovar, a LK823 setup, much like you would setup any wood boiler hooked up to storage. Plumbing is really straightforward. I've got mine piped with 1" copper, and run an alpha on the lowest constant speed setting. Mine runs about 7 gpm at 14 degrees T.

I turn on the pellet boiler when the top of the tank reaches close to the ODR target, which obviously fluctuates with the outdoor temp. Once the boiler fires, I keep it on until the return temperature of the pellet boiler reaches 160.

The boiler's output temperature isn't the 176 number but rather determined by the flow rate and the regulating temperature of the Thermovar. I see the Windhager settle in at around 160-162 for a burn. Towards the end of the burn, the boiler temp does rise as the return temperature rises. But it happens quickly, as the boiler is putting energy into your storage and moving the thermocline down.

I've got a 150 (15kW or 51kBTU/hr) unit and about 120 gallons of storage. My run times are around 2.5 hours on average.

I don't know if a image would be helpful or not, here is the last complete burn:







bT = boiler temp (ya know, the hot side)
LKAB = Boiler Return (ya know, the cold side)
LKA = The "A" port on the LK valve, coming from the bottom of storage.
pBR = crappy beer, or if you're a hipster, it's the pellet boiler return. This sensor is over in the tank several feet of piping away.

The system which logs the data only logs when the boiler is being called to heat the tank. Those extraneous lines are the graphing software trying to connect the dots from the last full burn to the next.

Anyways, it works really well. Super reliable and I've had no issues with it. In the biomass sticky there are some control systems like this described. I'm certainly not the first to do this.


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## nhtreehouse (Mar 10, 2019)

Oh, and I should have said ... because the boiler never reaches the setpoint, it runs wide open at 100%. It may modulate a little at the very end of the burn as the return temp increases, and the thermovar opens. But if it does, it only modulates for a few minutes as that pellet boiler return temp is really moving fast.


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## Sparky978 (Mar 10, 2019)

nhtreehouse said:


> Oh, and I should have said ... because the boiler never reaches the setpoint, it runs wide open at 100%. It may modulate a little at the very end of the burn as the return temp increases, and the thermovar opens. But if it does, it only modulates for a few minutes as that pellet boiler return temp is really moving fast.



Thank you
Now I have a better understanding of how your system works. Very helpful.


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## huffdawg (Mar 28, 2019)

salecker said:


> Your underground lines suck.They are going to make you cut a bunch of wood for no reason.
> You should count on abondoning them and putting in new lines sprayed in place with underground rated spray foam.




Care full with that one , I spray foamed my pex lines with closed cell foam about 8 years ago. I'm  now seeing a nice melted  path above my pextubing. I'm thinking the foam is starting to break down.


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## salecker (Mar 29, 2019)

huffdawg said:


> Care full with that one , I spray foamed my pex lines with closed cell foam about 8 years ago. I'm  now seeing a nice melted  path above my pextubing. I'm thinking the foam is starting to break down.


I would be talking to the spray foam guys about that.
Mine are still good after 8 yrs no sign of any melt


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## huffdawg (Mar 29, 2019)

salecker said:


> I would be talking to the spray foam guys about that.
> Mine are still good after 8 yrs no sign of any melt


Is your ground dry?


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## 3fordasho (Mar 29, 2019)

huffdawg said:


> Care full with that one , I spray foamed my pex lines with closed cell foam about 8 years ago. I'm  now seeing a nice melted  path above my pextubing. I'm thinking the foam is starting to break down.




I get all set to go with foam in trench and then I see stuff like this..  I wonder if it's got something to do with the expansion/contraction cycle the pex goes through as water temp changes.  Regular and oxygen barrier pex move quite a bit.  pex al pex is much more stable so I was thinking of using that in the trench.


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## salecker (Mar 30, 2019)

huffdawg said:


> Is your ground dry?


Hi
 I am not sure what you mean by is the ground dry?
 We live in the bottom of an old glacier formed lake,300+ ft of clay.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 30, 2019)

maple1 said:


> I suspect simply that the green wood is hampering your boilers ability to get & stay hot enough.
> 
> .


Bingo. Cant expect much heat from green wood. Id try to get  few boiler loads of certified dry wood and see what difference it makes first. I wouldnt be surprised if wet wood decreases performance by 50% or even more depending just HOW wet it is.


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## huffdawg (Mar 30, 2019)

salecker said:


> Hi
> I am not sure what you mean by is the ground dry?
> We live in the bottom of an old glacier formed lake,300+ ft of clay.


Mine is on top of clay also, the 3 ft of fill on top I think gets quite saturated during wet spells.. I guess I won’t know what the problem is till I dig it up .


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## salecker (Mar 31, 2019)

huffdawg said:


> Mine is on top of clay also, the 3 ft of fill on top I think gets quite saturated during wet spells.. I guess I won’t know what the problem is till I dig it up .


All clay here.
Some people make the mistake of digging a basement here and back filling with gravel.Then wonder why they have a leaky basement.I back filled my trenches with dry clay and my basement.


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