# Does heating with wood really save money??



## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2012)

Hey guys

I understand that I have already asked this question in other posts in the past. However time flies by and I find that various aspects change with time when considering the cost of heating with wood.

In my case  I heat my home with a bit of wood (on top of electricity). It takes a long time to stack my wood, season it, move it to the shed, etc etc.

I currently live in a 3 year old house.  THe basement was spray foamed on the walls and in the rim joists (crown) and I added R14 Roxul on top of that. 

My stove is in the basement and I paid $1500 for my chimney (installed) and $2200 for my stove. Wood around here is $250 a cord for hardwood and $175 for softwood (I do not have a woodlot nor do I have a splitter or the heavy equipment such as a tractor / ATV requipred to pull wood) and I normally burn 3+ cords per winter (1.5 or so of hardwood and 1.5 or so of softwood). My sweep gave me a quote of $150 for a cleaning (I can't reach my chimney with a ladder however I do plan on getting a sooteater this year). Therefore, I will NEVER get my money back for the stove and chimney.

Since my electricity costs are only $0.052/Kwh, I have compared the cost of oil VS wood VS electricity in my area with a HEARTH.com cost comparison  calculator

36.26 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$3,444.70 per year for normal home for *Oil*
$14.29 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$1,357.55 per year for normal home for *Hardwood*
$15.50 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$1,472.50 per year for normal home for *Softwood*
$15.24 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$1,447.80 per year for normal home for *Electric*

Another cost calculator says pretty much the same thing: the cost is the same for electricity or wood.
http://www.efficiencymaine.com/pace/compare-heating-options

What about you guys?

Thanks

Andrew


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## BrowningBAR (Oct 8, 2012)

I burn 8 cord a year. All of it is bought. Runs me about $1,000 for the year as I buy my wood in bulk and get a nice discount by ordering 10 cord at a time.

Burning oil would run me about $6,000 this winter.

Not sure about electricity, but I am at about $0.16/Kwh.


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## BobUrban (Oct 8, 2012)

Kind of like asking if venison is saving you money over beef???  In my opinion, Yes.  But that is because I do 90% or more of the labor myself in both making bows and arrows and procuring the wood I burn and I enjoy both on a level as compared to just having fun.  Most costly part was the chimney install because I did not want to tackle that myself with insurance as my biggest factor in the equasion.  Stove was 650.00 delivered to my door.  Bricks, morter and tools maybe another 250.00.  Fireplace tools and stand I made and labor is free if you enjoy it. 

Now add the saw, quad, splitter, fuel for all of the above and how much is used for hauling deer or wood????  I just know there is so much satisfaction in a really warm home and not paying 5-700$ 3 or so times a year for propane and wearing a hoodie all the time. 

Doing the math on the pieces and parts of my stove install and procuring tools I believe after 2 seasons I am making money and enjoying all of it.  JMO


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## Wood Duck (Oct 8, 2012)

Your electricity is cheap, and with cheap electric and wood you have to buy, then I am not surprised that electric is cheaper than wood. Those of us who actually save money by burning wood probably have more expensive electricity and/or do not buy wood.

At some point in the past I determined that I save about $200 to $300 by burning about a cord of wood each month in the winter. In other words, electric heat and wood heat are similar in cost if I had to buy wood.


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## ColdNH (Oct 8, 2012)

at 3.60 a gallon for fuel oil you bet you azz im saving money burning wood. Even if I was buying it @ 300$ a cord I would be saving almost half, and fortunatly I scroung 90% of the wood I burn.

electric is almost as bad as oil up here and natural gas only exists in very few locations.

$32.97 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$3,132.15 per year for normal home for *Oil*
$17.14 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$1,628.30 per year for normal home for *Hardwood*


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## mfglickman (Oct 8, 2012)

Wow. How is your electricity so cheap? It happens I was just looking at switching my electrical provider....Connecticut Light & Power (current provider) is at $0.0828 per kWh, North American Power is at $0.0699 per.


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## Todd (Oct 8, 2012)

I think I do save a little money heating with wood verses paying for NG but if I had to pay for all of my firewood and not scrounge free wood it would be a wash. NG is currently pretty cheap around here. I think the guys that save the most with wood heat are the guys that have oil and propane heat.

If I figure in all the costs of new stoves, rebuilt chimney, liners and all those other wood burner doodads I'm losing money but I like the wood heat feel better than a forced air furnace and if I didn't spend all that money on wood burning stuff I'd probably spend it on something else.


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## dafattkidd (Oct 8, 2012)

I've been burning wood for just about three years (this will be my fourth winter). I did the math and I think I have saved about $7000 in oil.  I think I have spent like $3200 or so on the stove and wood, so I'm up about $3800 or so.  Wood burning has been such a blessing to our family. Our house is so much warmer and we've reduced our heating bills significantly.


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## bogydave (Oct 8, 2012)

I save some on energy bills
I save some on gym memberships
I save some on doctor bills.
I save some on psychiatrist bills
 so far my wood is not taxed (even some more saved)

All added up, I save some $$ & have fun doing it


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 8, 2012)

Dd you do these calculations BEFORE you installed a wood stove ? If so why did you did you do it?  You are in an unusual situation where your electric is 200-300% cheaper than most of us Wood Burners and you are buying your wood,i never bought any wood probably never will. Most of us save a bundle as we dont buy wood and our alternatives fuels are much higher than ZERO.


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## chipsoflyin (Oct 8, 2012)

Let's see, 1100 for the,splitter, couple of hundred a year for my chainsaw addiction, already own the truck, 2200 for the golf cart to haul the wood, 2400 for the stove last year,a few hundred for scrounging gas, 100 for sooteaters, 250 for ash vac, 250 for hearth upgrade, 2000 for a chipper I'm looking at. I would have to say no, but I wouldn't change it for the world. Nothing like wood heat.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 8, 2012)

In thirty years of heating with wood I have never considered that it saved me one dime.


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## theonlyzarathu (Oct 8, 2012)

Before my renters left they used two propane stoves.  Their heating bill exceeded $4000 a year.  I use about 4 cords that are split and cut for me and dumped.  I just stack them.  

I save about $2000 from what it would cvost to heat with electric or propane.  But there's more than that.  During the time I moved in, there was a time when I had to buy propane and heat with that.  The house was constantly freezing unless the propane was on.  In about 3 weeks I used $250  of propane, basically 1/4 of my whole supply of wood.  But I WAS TOASTY WARM.  WOOD HEAT IS WARM STEADY HEAT.  Oil burners have to run continuously to give the same quality of heat that a wood stove does.  

I've been heating with wood for almost 35 years.  During that time I've had the alternatives of propane, oil, and electric, in drafty houses, and in super insulated very tight houses.  Wood heat has always been way way better.


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## rkshed (Oct 8, 2012)

Absolutely saving money!
I figure since I started burning last October, my total investment has been about $350 to $400. That includes buying the old stove, some flex liner, saw chains and the fuel to get the scrounge. May even include the used Jred 2150 I recently picked up.
My goal was to see if it was possible to heat solely with wood last winter and to spend as little as possible doing so. I used only about 15-20 gallons of oil and the house was the warmest it has been in the 20+ years we've been here.
7+ cords in the yard, all free.


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## rideau (Oct 8, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I understand that I have already asked this question in other posts in the past. However time flies by and I find that various aspects change with time when considering the cost of heating with wood.
> 
> ...


 
Wait a minute!  I'm in Ontario, and we are paying way more than that for electricity.  Does that 5 cents per KWH include all charges?  Hydroone has debt retirement surcharge, delivery charge, 10 % added to KWH used to compensate for power lost in transmission, etc., plus all that has a 13 % harmonized sales tax added to that.  Besides which, even our off peak basic rate, before even multiplying by 1.1 (to compensate for lost power in transmission) is 60% higher than your stated electricity cost....

I save a great deal heating by wood instead of electricity.  Bought a PH from Woodstock last year, used existing chimney/stovepipe, so just had install cost and purchase cost, Fed sales tax at the border.  Way before the end of the 2013-2014 heating season the stove will be paid for, possibly even by the end of this year.  Rates have gone up so much since I started heating with wood that I would have to go back to check KWH used 8 years ago to heat, then multiply by todays rate....plus add tax....  

Additionally, with the wood stove we are not dependant on hydroone.  During the 90s ice storm
people in my area without wood heat or generators had to move out of their homes for 28 days...
We always loose power for some period of time a few times a year because of trees falling and taking out the lines.  Don;t have to worry about heat, cooking, freezing pipes,  which is a saving from Wood Stove that doesn't necessarily jump put at you, but can be huge...plus great peace of mind,
plus ambiance and comfort of radiant wood heat....

For me, there is no question, I save thousands a year....I own my own wood lot and don't pay for wood.  Split with wedge and sledge.  Don't have much expense.  Exercise is good for me, being outdoors is good for me.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2012)

I understand that most people heat with wood because normally they have oil furnaces. Oil is not cheap, especially in the last 10 years.

Quebec has some of the cheapest electricity in North America. We are very fortunate. The province sells lots of it to the US and other provinces and we get the rebate.

The main reason I love heating with wood: the fun of it. In my case it has nothing to do with finances. But sometimes when I am trecking 3 cords of wood with a little wagon or a wheelbarrow, I sometimes question myself. LOL.

The big thing is that it is an added value to my house. SInce the ice storm of the 90s, people like the peace of mind with a wood stove. Independant heat...

My rate does not include delivery/service fees. Here's a copy paste of my last bill. Note that it is for 2 months and my hot water tank is 60 gallons.





Billing date: August 21, 2012 / Facture du 21 août 2012
For the period from 2012-06-19 to 2012-08-21 at Domestic Rate D for 64 day(s)
Pour la période du 2012-06-19 au 2012-08-21 au tarif domestique D pour 64 jour(s)
Fixed charge / Redevance d'abonnement
(See definition on reverse. / Voir la définition au verso.)

64 day(s) / jour(s) x 0,4064 $ 26,01 $
Consumption / Consommation 1 890 kWh
First 30 kWh per day / Les 30 premiers kWh par jour 1 890 kWh x 0,0532 $ 100,55 $
Subtotal / Sous-total 126,56 $
GST No. / N

o TPS : 11944 9775 RT0001 
GST (5,0%) / TPS (5,0 %) 6,33 $
QST No. / N

o TVQ : 1000042605 TQ0020 
QST (9,5%) / TVQ (9,5 %) 12,62 $
Amount due by September 11, 2012
Montant à payer au plus tard le 11 septembre 2012 145,51 $


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## corey21 (Oct 8, 2012)

When i factor in the install of my system i would say no.

Bit it is starting to pay for its self.


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## Dustin (Oct 8, 2012)

I also have really cheap electricity, but, I live in an old, leaky, always in the shade cold house.

If I run the base board heaters I'm looking at a cost of around 100-170 a month depending on how cold it gets.

Here, I buy some and split some. I pay 100 bucks a cord for alder, and I burn about 6 or 7 months out of the year, or more. 

So, the install has paid for itself 4 years ago. 600 bucks for 6 cord is not a bad winter heating bill


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## jeff_t (Oct 8, 2012)

I have NG service across the road. All I would have to do is pay to have it hooked up. Don't know what the rates are like. Don't really care. LP would cost at least $3k. I have removed almost all of the electric baseboard heaters as carpet has been replaced. The rest were disconnected when I replaced the electrical panel a few years ago.

I work hard enough, and surely don't do it for the execise. I can afford to pay for heat these days, but the money saved allows for more fun stuff, like dangerous toys to cut wood.

The comfort of constant warmth,and the satisfaction of doing it myself, have no price.

Not about money, here.


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## ssupercoolss (Oct 8, 2012)

Is that .052 canadian or american?  not going to try to decipher that bill since i think i saw the word "litres" in it.  anyways, i think you need to compare what you actually pay for electric....$$$/kwhrs.  my rate for i guess generation is about .09, then the cost for transmissions, Delivery, taxes, and making it smell nice actually bring me up to about .15 cents.  Last year was so mild here i barely used any of my wood burning appliances....used mostly heat pumps.  i think my wood boiler paid for itself in a little over a year, but my wood is free.


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## sebring (Oct 8, 2012)

Burning wood has allowed me to save enough for a vacation every year. Burning oil has allowed me to starve most of the year.


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## njtomatoguy (Oct 8, 2012)

Yes.
I got a really good deal on the stove because it was scratched,on the back, and the heat shield was bent a little. I bent it back out.
The Chimney was the most expensive part. Self installed.
Gathered and scrounged in Chevy aveo. Guys here got a kick out of that. Did that for a few years, Used furnace for backup
until 2009.
Bought a Chevy HHR and a 4x6 trailer. Scrounging/hauling got a whole lot easy. Have not turned on furnace since 2009, plenty of wood
Just bought a 2012 GMC sierra pickup. Grabbed some wood recently on the way home from the library. It was a dream. No trailer,
no rushing around to get back to it before someone else does, etc.
So I have progressed.

I think Bogydave said it best..


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## madison (Oct 8, 2012)

I would personally rather look and sit in front of a wood burning stove, than my home's base board radiators.

Like Brother Bart , never bothered to compare the cost.


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 8, 2012)

I often sort of wonder over the years just how many dollars we've saved by burning wood and I can say without a doubt that it is many thousands of dollars. BogyDave touched on a few points so let's see if I can touch on some just off the top of my head.

Although we burned wood before having a family, we consider those years that our sons helped with the wood to be very profitable for growing boys! The work taught them much and we spent many hours together which is priceless.

After our sons left we continued but one must remember that we love all parts of wood burning starting with felling the trees and bucking up the logs, splitting, stacking, etc. Although an injury forced us into buying a hydraulic splitter, previous to this my sons and I did all the splitting by hand. Personally, I started doing this at an extremely young age; about the time I started school.

We do pay some taxes on our land but the taxes on the land are extremely low. We own an atv, but we also use the atv for many more things than hauling wood. Same goes for the trailer. Same goes for the saw. And what is this about folks stating $200 a year or more for the saw? My present saw was purchased for less than $300 and it is 10 years old. The only other cost has been for a couple of chains, files, gas and oil. No way has that saw cost us what folks are fond of quoting.

Exercise! No gym dues for us. In fact, we do our cutting during the cold months when many spend their time indoors. We get good exercise by putting up wood. In spring when we no longer want to cut trees because of the birds and animals, this is when we do the splitting and stacking. A wonderful way to spend late winter or early spring days. Come warmer weather we get our exercise in many other ways.

Around here folks who heat with propane have to pay an annual fee in addition to expensive propane. Another cost we do not have. Nor do we have gas or oil trucks coming in our driveway.

One could go on and on but one of the biggest benefits of having wood heat is that we don't have to be cold in the winter. We hear and know of folks that don't even keep their homes at 70 degrees. We used to visit a couple quite often but quit doing so because in the winter we had to put on outdoor clothing in order to go visit because their home was so cold. They also dressed that way. As for me, our home will not be cold. We want to be comfortable and we keep it at a temperature that is comfortable for us; usually around 80 degrees. I shudder thinking what it would cost in oil, gas or electric to keep our home at that temperature.

Plainly speaking, my wife and I are into retirement and we want to be warm. We want to be as healthy as possible. Heating with wood helps us in this quest.


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## carbon neutral (Oct 8, 2012)

I think the answer is very situational.  First $.05/kwhr is exceptionally low.  I pay ~ $.08/kwhr + delivery fees of ~$,04/kwhr for a total of $.12/kwhr.  
I spent several thousand dollars on equipment:
Chainsaws: Dolmar 7900 $639, Husqvarna 346XP $440, Stihl 182 $220
Wood Chipper: pro mark 23 ~$1700
Log spitter:  Harbor freight 22ton $860
Back hoe JCB mini ~$10,000
With that equipment I cleared my lot saving me ~5,000 and yielding me 15 or so cord of wood.  I could sell the wood chipper and back hoe for more than what I have in them and I rent them out which brings down the cost, also rent out the log splitter.  
To burn all this wood I have an EKO 40 with 1,000 gallons storage, total for that set up was ~4,000.  Burning 5 cord a year saves me about $4,000 a year.  So from cutting my own wood I saved about $17,000, or you could say on the tree removal equipment I broke even and on the wood burning equipment I broke even after one year and each year there after is profit on investment.  You do need to factor in your time.  To do that you first have to ask yourself if you enjoy it.  Another thing to think about is carbon foot print.  By not burning fossil fuels I am helping my great grand children inherit a better world, or at least I like to think so.


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## Beetle-Kill (Oct 8, 2012)

In a word- yes. Not having to buy propane has off-set the cost of the stove, 3 saws, chain grinder, hearth, trailer,etc.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 8, 2012)

It seems your paying closer to 8c a Kwh if you divide 1890 Kw into 145.00


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## Blue Vomit (Oct 8, 2012)

I was just thinking about this the other day... when I ran my truck over the well cap and pipe in my back yard while transporting a load of splits. I think you can definately save money if...
You get a good deal on a stove
You get a good deal on a chimney or liner
you get a good deal on install, or DIY
you get a good deal on firewood or access to scrounges
you get a good deal on equipment: saw, maul, axe, splitter. chains, fuel, etc
now factor in a wood shed, or tarps, pallets to stack on, etc
did I mention fire starters? super cedars, fatwood etc.
can you sweep your own chimney? brushes and rods.
how about replacement parts for that stove you got such a great deal on
fireplace gloves, ash bucket, shovel, etc
and dont forget mishaps... like being a jackass and running into your well pipe in you back yard and damaging your nice truck
how about overdoing it and straining your back while c/s/s ing. You cant do that by ordering oil or gas or electric
I know, alot of this stuff you can make or do by yourself for free BUT, it takes time, and time is money. It takes 5 minutes to order oil.
I know Ive probably forgotten other expenses.
This being said, Ive burned wood for many years and will continue to do so.
Have I saved money?  Dont know, dont care.
Burn on.


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## Dakotas Dad (Oct 8, 2012)

As simple as it gets..

I use "budget billing" on my electric bill.

Before stove, $215 a month +/-.. after stove $140 a month +/-.

My house is 6-10 degrees WARMER now.

Electricity has gone up 15% since I installed.

My heart is stronger since I process my own wood.

My heart is calmer now that I know a power outage is no big thing to us.

My love life is better because momma bear isn't trying to hibernate all winter.

I figure the financial "break even" is late 2015. The emotional and security "break even" was about 45 minutes after my first solid burn started. First time my secondaries lit off.

It's all gravy to me. The money is but a small thing.

BTW, I don't count the cost of tractor, trailer, chainsaw(s), etc.. because I owned them all before I heated with wood. Except for the super splitter, and now, x27, I would own it all anyways. Life in the woods is like that.


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## Waulie (Oct 8, 2012)

I save about $2,000 a year.  Even if I bought wood, the savings would be huge!  The new stove last year has already almost paid for itself, and I'll never have to feel too bad about buying a new chain saw, chains, etc.  Even though all the little equipment adds up, in the grand scheme of things it barely makes a dent in my savings over propane.  Also, we are much warmer with the wood stove!


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## Eric Johnson (Oct 8, 2012)

Warmer house and unlimited hot water, in addition to whatever the dollar savings are. In my case, considerable.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> It seems your paying closer to 8c a Kwh if you divide 1890 Kw into 145.00


 I agree, with taxes and delivery fees it works out to be 7.67c/Kwh.

Supercools: the rate is in Canada dollars (which, for once, are worth more than US dollars. LOL). On that bill I paid 7.67c/kwh with taxes and service charges.

Dennis, I agree with you 100% The time spending with the family and teaching the kids work ethic is quite valuable itself. My son is only 2 and he helps me stack wood (and know down my piles). But you also said it: you're retired. My problem right now is trying to get it all done: just built a garage, have a 8 month pregnant wife, a 2 year old and I work 45-50 hours a week. Don't get me wrong, I love heating with wood. It's a disease. But when you don't own any equipment (nor can I afford it) it gets frustrating. Imagine moving 4 cords of wood into a shed with a wheelbarrow alone. That takes time...

I think everyone's answer is situational. In my case, financially it simply does not pay when considering I need to spend $250 for a cord of hardwood, $1500 for my chimney installation and $2200 for my wood stove. I still did it and have *no *regrets! I love heating with wood. I give myself the challenge to not let the baseboard turn on in the winter.... I was just curious to see who does it for moral satisfaction/personal choice vs who does it for financial gain.

A


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## greenbrierwv (Oct 8, 2012)

i li





BobUrban said:


> Kind of like asking if venison is saving you money over beef??? In my opinion, Yes. But that is because I do 90% or more of the labor myself in both making bows and arrows and procuring the wood I burn and I enjoy both on a level as compared to just having fun. Most costly part was the chimney install because I did not want to tackle that myself with insurance as my biggest factor in the equasion. Stove was 650.00 delivered to my door. Bricks, morter and tools maybe another 250.00. Fireplace tools and stand I made and labor is free if you enjoy it.
> 
> Now add the saw, quad, splitter, fuel for all of the above and how much is used for hauling deer or wood???? I just know there is so much satisfaction in a really warm home and not paying 5-700$ 3 or so times a year for propane and wearing a hoodie all the time.
> 
> ...


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## fossil (Oct 8, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> ...I think everyone's answer is situational...


 
By golly, I'd say you've found your way all around the issue back to the answer to your question.


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## SmokeyCity (Oct 8, 2012)

The purpose is not to save money.  The purposes are as follows:
1) Get a great workout cutting and hauling the wood
2) Get a great workout moving the wood from your pile into your house.
3) Get a great workout lugging 400# stoves up and down stairs
4) Get a great workout cleaning the chimneys
5) Get a great workout hauling buckets of ashes out of your house


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2012)

fossil said:


> By golly, I'd say you've found your way all around the issue back to the answer to your question.


 LOL. indeed. I guess I should have done a survey instead. I seem to have flustered a few feathers in the nest!

I think the consensus on this forum is quite obvious: people do it for the love of doing it. My question was more along the lines of "who does it to save money?" If there wasn't some enjoyment out of the activity, most people wouldn't do it.

A


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## jharkin (Oct 8, 2012)

What it cost you to install the stove is irrelevant now. In business we call that a "sunk cost". You already spent it, you cant get it back, so it therefore has NO bearing whatsoever on whether or not continuing to burn wood will save money going forward.

The cost of the stove would have been a factor before installing, but that ship has sailed....



Using your corrected $0.08 per KWh and $250/$175 wood prices I get

$14.29 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$1,357.55 per year for normal home for * Hardwood*
$15.50 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$1,472.50 per year for normal home for * Softwood*
$23.44 per Million BTU of Heat delivered to home 
$2,226.80 per year for normal home for * Electric*

Looks like wood is the winner, by quite a margin.


BTW, that electric rate is _amazingly_ cheap. We pay .0699 generation charges here, but have another 8 cents of distribution, transmission, green charges etc for a total of .154


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## PapaDave (Oct 8, 2012)

For me, wood runs about $200/year and is a mix of purchased and scrounged.
Natty gas would be somewhere around 1500. I save using wood.
HTH


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## Armoured (Oct 8, 2012)

Another situational response, but here goes:
-Electricity about 11.5c (US$).
-Savings (guessing) appears to be $100-$200 mo. This is a lowball guess for winter.

This is being cheap for a weekend place, heated (electric) to keep pipes from freezing. Savings above are for weekend use. Alternative would be to pay much more to keep it at a (much) higher temperature, with the stove, the place is cold when we arrive, within about an hour (roughly while doing other stuff anyway) it's comfortable in the same room as the stove, within two-three all over. With the electric heat alone, it could easily take 12 hours to be comfortable.

So the savings above really don't account for the much higher comfort level.

Oh, and the installation cost I don't really count because I would have done it anyway for the sheer pleasure of the fire, and the open fireplace was useless for fire and a heat sink when not in use. Anyway, even including installation, I think a single cold season was enough to pay for itself, with $2-3k savings per year after that. But entirely situational.

Quebec really has crazy low electricity prices.


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## chipsoflyin (Oct 8, 2012)

Backwoods Savage said:


> I often sort of wonder over the years just how many dollars we've saved by burning wood and I can say without a doubt that it is many thousands of dollars. BogyDave touched on a few points so let's see if I can touch on some just off the top of my head.
> 
> Although we burned wood before having a family, we consider those years that our sons helped with the wood to be very profitable for growing boys! The work taught them much and we spent many hours together which is priceless.
> 
> ...



Saws, my friend, saws, plural


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## mfglickman (Oct 8, 2012)

Coming back to this...we moved into this house in November last year. A mild winter. Our first 3wwwks of oil cost $900. We got two more such bills, with the thermostat set at 58-60 for about 20/24 hours. We were freezing, miserable inside - and it was not even that cold out.

We spent about $2500 (don't remember exact liner and install numbers) and turned off the furnace. Spent maybe $600 on fuel, some wood to burn, some to season, and so
E BioBricks, and then we enjoyed being warm.

So yes it probably broke even on last year based on oil costs alone.


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## osagebow (Oct 8, 2012)

Love this thread - interesting to see how people figure it. I think I'll probably will start saving 5  years out or so, after stove, setup and saws price reclaimed. Have free wood, though.
  +1 on Backwoods, BobUrban and many others. 'specially the getting kids out there stuff. Excercise is the next best benefit for me. Recently dusted our 195 lb. state wrestling champ  at arm wrestling -he wouldn't stop asking to try me.
That was great for the 'ol midlife crisis.


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## clemsonfor (Oct 8, 2012)

I save $50-150 in the winter months. Our electric ranges from $0.12 to $0.14 cents a KWhr. If it was $0.05 an hour it would probly not save anything.

But my savings are based upon half my house being 60F and the other side being 65F and a fire place chunking as much wood as i could each evening, the stove heats the whole house to over 70F easily, with the bedroom being in the 60s at the coldest.


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## heatwise (Oct 8, 2012)

Just came up with a total of $5,200  Total ,That's  for 2 stoves including installations , small log splitter and chainsaws with the accessories.  Spread that over the past 14 years and it works out to be $371 a year for heat. The wood I use is from the area and does have cost associated but its under $30 and a cleaning for $100. Don't plan on replacing this set up any time soon so each year the average should go down.


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## eclecticcottage (Oct 8, 2012)

Yes...we figure the stove isn't part of the equation for us since we had a beat up and possibly inoperable 1981 boiler and lines full of blow outs from improper winterization. We would have spent at least what we did on the stove to replace it all.

We've never filled our propane tank so I don't know what it would cost for propane here.


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## dave_376 (Oct 8, 2012)

wood 1400
oil 3600
electric baseboard 3000

those were the calculations for me but in reality I think they are different. I get all of my wood so far for free. 2 years ago I paid over $4000 in oil during the winter. between saws and tools and gas and the used stove and line I'm in it for roughly $1500 -$1800. So I hope everything goes well for my house and keeping my heating bills down.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2012)

jharkin said:


> What it cost you to install the stove is irrelevant now. In business we call that a "sunk cost". You already spent it, you cant get it back, so it therefore has NO bearing whatsoever on whether or not continuing to burn wood will save money going forward.
> 
> The cost of the stove would have been a factor before installing, but that ship has sailed....
> 
> ...


''

Thanks Jharkin! I realize now based on those "revised" rates wood is cheaper. And after 30 Kwh a day my rate gets bumped to 7.51c/Kwh so the savings are even greater.

 However, I can't agree with your sunk cost mentality. I understand the principle of it but don't agree with it. When you purchase a house, do consider the mortgage insurance fees, real estate agent fees and home inspection fees to be sunken costs or do you take them into consideration when looking for a home and apply for a mrotgage?

With my utility company there's a great rate option for people who need dual energy (even if you burn with wood you will still use electricity):

Electricity prices at Rate DT vary with the temperature. Find out how.
*Rate DT principle*
Lower electricity price
Electrical heating
Threshold of -12°C or -15°C
Higher electricity price
Fuel-fired heating
Rates have three main components that account for the different costs of providing electricity service. In this way, rates reflect the costs of meeting customer demand.

Fixed charge (40.64¢ per day) times the multiplier
Energy charge
Energy consumed when the temperature is equal to or higher than –12°C or –15°C: 4.30¢/kWh
Energy consumed when the temperature is below –12°C or –15°C: 20.39¢/kWh

Power demandexceeding 50 kW (or 4 kW times the multiplier)
Winter period (December 1 to March 31): $6.21/kW
Summer period (April 1 to November 30): $1.26/kW

It is certainly an incentive to shower in the day time (when warmest) and keep the wood furnace/stove/etc going.

One thing is certain, I would NEVER heat with oil!!

Osage: it's nice opening a can on a younger generation eh?

Andrew


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## rwhite (Oct 8, 2012)

If I had to buy wood then no I wouldn't save a dime. I either scrounge town or bring home 1/2 cord or so everytime I go hunting or camping so I get enough wood. I don't calculate the bringing home wood because I would have been there anyway. Bottom line is wood is different (better IMO) heat. and I never seen to many pics of familys gathered around the NG furnace playing games or having a glass of wine. If you factor the cost of install you would also have to factor the cost of install of a furnace or the maintenace of running it full time.

Bottom line is "man needs fire".


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## bren582 (Oct 8, 2012)

I've never actually sat down and tried to figure out in detail how much i'm saving or how many years it would take to recover my investment but the wife tells me since we started burning wood (3 - 4 cords per season) our monthly heating bill (Natural Gas) has been about half compared to what it was pre EPA stove. It's kind of an apples to oranges comparison . Before the stove we would keep the thermostat low maybe 65 to 68 range and we were always cold. Turning it up to say 75 to 78 was out of the question, would cost a fortune. With the wood stove we keep the house so much warmer, to the point of being comfortable in shorts and a t-shirt during the coldest days in Jan.  I don't know why but the wood heat feels so much nicer compared to the forced hot air furnace. Thanks to my open floor plan I can maintain 75+ degree heat in all rooms except the bedrooms and the room the insert is in goes to 80+ easy.  I can't imagine what it would cost to do the same with the furnace. I don't mind the work of stacking, moving the wood around and tending to the stove and I love watching the fire. I just can't find a down side to heating with wood..


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## dylskee (Oct 8, 2012)

I save a lot of money burning wood, I spend $600. a year on wood and Oil would be $3000+ for the heating season. When we were using oil we were cold most winters, so not very comfortable at all. Started using wood as a main heat source about 7 years ago and never looked back! And now the entire house is nice and warm...... I made some excel sheets to track all my utilities so I have 10 years of data on my oil usage, I use 1 tank of oil per year now because I also have an Oil fired hot water heater that's going to get pulled when the tank starts to rust out! So I don't care how much work goes into splitting, stacking and hauling wood...... It beats knowing the oil man on a first name basis!


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## pen (Oct 8, 2012)

It's like anything, if you do the sweat equity yourself, you'll save money. The more work you farm out, the costlier things get. I do all my own vehicle repair. When "x" is broken on a car, and I tell the wife I need "x" money for additional tools to fix it, she doesn't blink an eye as she knows that's still cheaper than than having the mech at 60 bux an hour do the work, and she knows those tools will fix something else down the road. You have to look at wood stoves the same way.

I relined my chimney myself for under 500 dollars, bought my (current) wood stove one year used for 450 dollars, and cut, split, haul the wood myself for nothing more than the cost of my time and the gas (which has a real value, but in the scheme of things not much as I'm not missing work for it and not missing out on overtime opportunities).

When I cut / split wood, I generally do it with a few buddies. That means we get to BS / have a few beers after / turn the work into a bunch of fun. That said, the cost of doing it in terms of gas and time comes out to be the same or less as it would have been to sit with the same buddies at the bar for that amount of time and catch up, or else go to a movie, go out to dinner, etc, etc.

Also, how many folks spend gas / time / money going to a gym to work out? I get my workout on firewood for myself, my cabin, my friends cabin, my grandmother, etc, etc.

That said, for some folks it's a labor of love. If it's not, then either find a way to make it such, or else turn the furnace on if there isn't a way to justify the costs / work.

pen


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## rideau (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm not following all of that last post, but if your bill was 1890 kh for 60 days, you used over 31 /day, which means any you used for electric heat would be at the rate of 7.51 cents, 50 % higher than the rate you quoted originally, while we now realize your actual cost was about 60 % higher.  So, 7.5 cents x 1.6 = 12 cents per kwh...now you are really starting to save money with wood heat.

Not sure about what you are saying with all the other figure...Is it that if you heat with wood you can get a reduced basic energy charge of 4.3c/kWh, plus a multiplier x40.64 c / day, where presumably the multiplier is 12.5 (from your statement at power demand) = $5.08 / day  ?  If so, with your average use of 31 kWh/day, you are talking $5.08 + (31 x .043) 1.33 = $6.41/day x 60 days = $384 ???
plus any delivery charges and taxes....and forget the charge when it is cold out!  I'm likely not following......since this doesn't sound like any deal. 

And then if you go over 50 kWh ( which you would presumably do if you were heating with electricity, since your electricity usage for a few warmer months was 31 + per day, will go up in winter when it takes more power to heat colder water, but hopefully won't do if heating with wood... ) a surcharge of $6.21 per kWh???

I don't get it, but it doesn't really matter.  What does matter is your new stated cost of .075 plus add ons = really .12 c/kWh, which brings you much closer to the norm, and clearly makes it profitable to heat with wood...You'd probably be talking more like $3400 for electric heat....


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## blacktail (Oct 8, 2012)

I have forced air electric heat from when my house was built in 1990.
My PUD account since I bought my house:
09/03/2012 $61.73
06/29/2012$63.27
04/30/2012$87.63
03/01/2012$95.69
12/30/2011$100.84
10/27/2011$59.17
08/30/2011$13.86

The previous owners of my house heated with 100% electricity and their bills were between $300 and $400 during peak heating.
Every now and then during winter my heat would be on when I got home from work at night. I'm sure a lot of the winter increase was due to my water heater in the garage.
Off the top of my head, I think my insert + installation was $2200. Add $400 for my saw. I probably burned a couple tanks of gas in my truck for wood over the last year.
Most of the wood I'll burn this season was cut on my own property. Wood for future heating seasons will come from my property and other sources that will only cost me gas.
Wait, I'll have to add in what I spent on lumber for my shed too. That was probably a few hundred. 
I'm not interested in doing the math. It'll take me a few years to recoup what I spent.
*I JUST LIKE WOOD HEAT. *


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2012)

Hey guys... I guess I certainly shook the hornet's nest on this one. LOL.

The one thing you are all forgetting is that *my utility bill includes cooking, hot water, clothes dryer, water pump, lights and all other forms of electricity. *Not just heat. Everyone compares wood with electricity but nobody takes into consideration that they also have monthly utility bills on top of wood costs. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I love cutting wood and burning wood. I simply wanted to get a glimpse and other's situations regarding heating. I find myself attempting to defend electrical heating which is really not  my goal..I just want to compare apples to apples.

Rideau...

If you read the post where I cut/paste my bill, it states that the billing period was for 64 days. Therefore 29.5 Kwh per day.

*If you have a dual energy furnace or heat pump, Hydro Quebec encourages you by giving a super low rate at a warmer temperature for electricity. However, once the temperature reaches a particular number (based on geographical areas..helps recude the grid demand) the rate quadruples! My in-laws have this as their furnace is electric/oil. They got the system installed when oil was $0.65 a litre. (15 years ago). HydroQuebec also provided financial incentives to convert to a dual energy system. At -13C the furnace automatically changes to oil from electric. The multiplier is normally 1. I encourage you to read this link about the program if you have time http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/tarif-residentiel.html. My rates will never be 12c/Kwh at the current cost I get charged. My largest bill since I have been in my house (don't forget I supplement my electrical heat with wood) was $309 for 65 days and a total of 3830 Kwh (58.92 Kwh/day which converts to $4.76 a day in electricity) and 8.1c/Kwh total costs.*

I can't seem to get that paragraph to non-bold..dunno how it went bold..damn gremlins!


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## Swedishchef (Oct 8, 2012)

I think it is obvious we all like wood heat or wouldn't be on this Forum...however Blacktail said it best "*I JUST LIKE WOOD HEAT"*


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## rdust (Oct 8, 2012)

Propane or oil are my only choices and I save a bundle compared to propane.  I paid for my first stove, chimney reline, chimney pipe, hearth pad etc in the first season, paid for the trailer, splitter and saws the second season with money left over from the savings.  Not hard to do when propain cost you 3-4k a year.

In the end I really enjoy the heat and my house is also a ton more comfortable burning wood.  The only downside is the time involved takes a little away from time with the wife and little ones.  I get 5 weeks of vacation a year so I usually use a day here and there so I don't cut into their time too terribly bad.


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## BrianK (Oct 8, 2012)

I installed my Woodstock Fireview at the end of January 2012 and burned through March. We used approx 50 MCF of natural gas in January, 13 MCF in February and March. At approx. $7 per MCF of natural gas we saved about $260 in February and March this past winter which was exceptionally mild. I am anticipating at least that kind of savings on average for November through March or about $1300 per year. 

I've bought several loads of kiln dried oak ends from a local hardwood manufacturer at $33 per cord for a total of about 5 cords. Otherwise I'm just scrounging downed wood from wood lots behind my office, at my parent's home, and at friend's, all free. 

I found the ten year old hardly used Woodstock Fireview on Craigslist for $950 and spent $1800 on the Class A chimney pipe and install. I had a Stihl MS 250 already and bought a Farm Boss and a couple chains as well as an old diesel powered splitter. I sold an enclosed utility trailer to buy my 16'x6' dual axle trailer so nothing out of pocket there. Throw in chaps, a Stihl cant hook, and various odds and ends and I have approx. $4000 invested altogether. I'll have that much in savings within three years of burning. 

Plus I just really like everything about the wood heat. It's good exercise, good comfortable heat, I don't have to worry about power failures, and its something I'm enjoying toying with immensely. Plus the folks here are awesome!

So yes it's about saving money. But so much more.


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## Huntindog1 (Oct 9, 2012)

I save about 1500 a year. It will take a couple years to re-coup my investment in the stove and wood cutting equipment. 

My house has electric base board heat.


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## Shadow&Flame (Oct 9, 2012)

Swedishchef,

Just like you said before...its situational. Everyone has to figure out what it takes to live the way you wish to live. I would like to have more 
things in life, but I have to figure out if I can afford it first(Boy don’t you wish the gov thought like that...ha) Heating with wood isnt saving me any 
money right now...cost verses electricity is not even close in my warm climate. I was raised burning wood and will always burn wood, if I can 
afford the time and money to do so. It seems you are at a place where the time and money part are getting close...take a break and don’t worry 
about the small stuff...take care of you and your families needs. I have the equipment and the property to keep up anyway...if I didn’t burn the 
downed/dead/damaged wood in my house...I would have to burn it in the field or let it rot. I like not having to depend on something I have
no control over to heat my house....power is out all the time. We all love burning wood...making it a case for saving money and time...Well, that is 
something you will have to answer for yourself.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 9, 2012)

I heat this joint with wood now out of necessity, We didn't use the heat pump for so many years that it died of old age and neglect. Now i am stuck with heating with wood or freezing to death. Easy call.

Savings ain't an issue. Heat is an issue.


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## Huntindog1 (Oct 9, 2012)

Has anyone mentioned that cutting wood is a good past time that gets you outdoors and the end results is not only are you healthier but you save money on your heating bills. 

I guess I could go buy a membership to the local health club, oh I guess I am saving that money also along with a few doctors visit cost savings.


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## jjs777_fzr (Oct 9, 2012)

Since I did two class A chimneys - I'd really like to not think about how much money went into it.
I spent $800 on a pellet stove, $500 on a wood stove (new), and probably another $1000 on nostalgic stoves because I wanted to try new things from 30 years ago).  Luckily scrounging wood has worked out for me.  It would be tough for me to spend $300 for a cord of wood.  It's also why I have various stoves to play with - wood, coal and pellet.  Whichever makes the most sense economically speaking - gets the nod.

however Blacktail said it best "*I JUST LIKE WOOD HEAT"*


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## blacktail (Oct 9, 2012)

Huntindog1 said:


> Has anyone mentioned that cutting wood is a good past time that gets you outdoors and the end results is not only are you healthier but you save money on your heating bills.


 
After reading this thread again I realized that I can't put a price on the time spent with my dad cutting wood. I wish I had pictures from our wood cutting trips when I was a little kid. Now that I have my own house we still go out, except I have my own truck and chainsaw. As a kid, dad would run his saw and I'd mess around hitting logs with the hatchet my grandpa gave me. Plus, I remember shooting on firewood trips too. Dad would always bring a .22 and when the truck was full we'd pull the gun out and burn some ammo.


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## 5654684 (Oct 9, 2012)

It pretty much comes down to if you pay for wood or do it yourself as far as cost savings go.
I have a pretty good chainsaw habit, but those expenses can be written of as hobbies.
The splitter is shared, so we all work towards the same end there.
The wood is free, just depends on how much work you want to put in on it.
The wife wants it 85 degrees all winter.

That is why I burn wood.


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## etiger2007 (Oct 9, 2012)

The first winter we spent in our new house ( this will be our third winter there) the December bill was $326 for gas and electric and thats keeping the thermostat at 68 degrees, by mid January we were burning wood.  I have not seen a winter bill over $220 ( thats gas and electric) since burning wood.  ( Thats burning wood when I get home from work and on weekends).  I bought a new stove this summer so I can burn while Im at work and the wife is home. I have alot of money tied up in wood burning and it will take some time to break even or get ahead but in the mean time im doing something I love to do and staying alot warmer as a result of it.  I could do better on the electric bill if the kids would just turn off their Xboxes once in awhile.


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## schlot (Oct 9, 2012)

I think if we were to amortize all the essential "toys" we use for cutting wood and put value to our time that we use gathering, cutting, splitting and stacking wood, it would make any other heating method seem reasonable.....BUT there are so many great things about wood heating that you can't put in a spreadsheet.

Being outdoors, sense of accomplishment, the smell of a fire, sight of the flames, gaining some independence from the utility companies, feeling good physically, are the bests things about what get from wood burning


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## Swedishchef (Oct 9, 2012)

I am glad about one thing, it seems that everyone loves heating with wood. LOL. Or else nobody would be on this forum. Also, we all agree it is great exercise. That is something I love. I simply enjoy being outside on a fall day, burning the brush and stacking the wood.

I don't have a woodlot so I have to buy my hardwood. I do have enough softwood in my land to cut some spruce/fir and get a cord or two a year out of it.The hardwood I currently have (dried) was purchased in 10 foot logs at $125 a cord. Great price for around here.

Shadow&Flame: I would say I am tight for time..it's not the money issue. I certainly can't afford to go buy a tractor, trailer and woodsplitter right now. NOt all 3. So what I cut and split I do by hand! Considering I just built this house 3 years ago, just finished building a garage and finishing the basement and I another kid on the way, I would like to take a break. I only have 2 days off a week and have lots of things I want to do in that time: time with the wife, the kid, get the new baby room ready, etc. This year I just don't have time to go cut wood. BUUUUUT, I am going to be off for 4.5 months this winter on parental leave and come springtime plan on cutting/splittig wood and catching up.lol. I am 3 years ahead in my wood right now.

Andrew


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## Hanko (Oct 9, 2012)

eventually I think you end up saving. especially if your buying oil or propane


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## maverick06 (Oct 9, 2012)

just make sure that you compare not just the generation charge (i think generation is about $0.09), but all the other aspects of the bill.....when you add in everything else by power is about $0.17.

I buy my wood at $175/cord of non-oak hardwood. (I think oak is 225). cumulative heating is <$500.year... if i was heating with just oil, I would be $3500. buying wood... saving money...


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## Jack Straw (Oct 9, 2012)

I burn wood just so I can be a member of this site!


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## jharkin (Oct 9, 2012)

jharkin said:


> What it cost you to install the stove is irrelevant now. In business we call that a "sunk cost". You already spent it, you cant get it back, so it therefore has NO bearing whatsoever on whether or not continuing to burn wood will save money going forward.
> 
> *The cost of the stove would have been a factor before installing, but that ship has sailed....*


 



Swedishchef said:


> ''
> 
> Thanks Jharkin! I realize now based on those "revised" rates wood is cheaper. And after 30 Kwh a day my rate gets bumped to 7.51c/Kwh so the savings are even greater.
> 
> However, I can't agree with your sunk cost mentality. I understand the principle of it but don't agree with it. When you purchase a house, do consider the mortgage insurance fees, real estate agent fees and home inspection fees to be sunken costs or do you take them into consideration when looking for a home and apply for a mrotgage?


 

Sweedish,

Note the second paragraph in my post. The cost to install the stove was a factor _before_ you installed it. It becomes sunk cost after you buy it. Now that its done, and I assume paid off cash, it doesn't effect whether it will be cheaper, in terms of cash flow, to heat with wood or electric this coming winter.

Same with your house example - all the fees and closing costs to purchase are a factor in the buying decision, but once you close they are irrelevant to later decisions like refinancing or selling/moving. When you go to refinance the only thing relevant is the closing costs for the refinance loan, the closing costs on the original purchase loan xxx years ago mean nothing.[/quote]


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## Hanko (Oct 9, 2012)

Jack Straw said:


> I burn wood just so I can be a member of this site!


 
me too, so i can ask silly questions


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## Jack Straw (Oct 9, 2012)

Hanko said:


> me too, so i can ask silly questions




Oh there are no silly questions, but there are a lot of silly answers!


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## Hanko (Oct 9, 2012)

Jack Straw said:


> Oh there are no silly questions, but there are a lot of silly answers!


 

true


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## Woody Stover (Oct 9, 2012)

I think it would cost quite a bit to heat this drafty house, even though it's small. Especially to heat it to 70+ all Winter. Going back to regular heat would bite. Now, my relatives are saving a bundle riding the back of my saws, quad, chimney brush, labor, etc  (except the splitter, which we chipped in on.) I enjoy the work though, so I'm good with it.


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## JBinKC (Oct 9, 2012)

In my case my system with saws and ancillary equipment paid for itself in about 2 years. Where can you get a risk free 50% return on an investment.

I chose wood mainly because you are in control of much more than just money. It also serves as a hedge against adverse events like power outages, hyperinflation etc. I am performing productive exercise in scrounging. Any stress can be channelled into splitting wood. I can set the temperature to what  is comfortable and not fret about it and have the entertainment value of  viewing the fire (OK I am a pyro).
It also can serve as a teaching tool to establish a work ethic.


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## Wood Duck (Oct 9, 2012)

I think we are arguing about two different types of calculations. it is one thing to calculate how much money one saves by using a wood stove once it is installed, and another thing to calculate how much one will save if he installs a wood stove. If you have a house and pay heating bills, then if you install a wood stove and still pay heating bills, all you have to do is compare the two bills to know how much money you are saving. If you want to include the full cost of heating with wood you can add up the cost of the stove, wood, chainsaws, etc. and compare that cost to the monthly savings. This is fairly easy, and my calculation tells me I am saving money. I have reduced by electric bills about $200 per month year round (bills are averaged to smooth out the high and low electric use months, or maybe just to make it hard to figure out how my bill is calculated). I know what the stove cost, wood is free, and most of other things I need I already had, so I could figure out how long the payback on the stove will take. I recall my calculations indicate about two or three years to payback.

On the other hand to figure out how much you might save in the future you have to know all about the electric rates including peak rates, variable rates that change due to weather or daily usage, etc. This is harder and leads you into a bunch of hypothetical questions regarding when you will use the stove, how much the backup heat will have to run during the coldest weather, etc.

For me saving money is financially good, of course, but the savings are much more important as part of the overall enjoyment of wood heat than as a financial benefit. I could earn a lot more money by working an extra hour than I can save by collecting wood for an hour, so in that sense scrounging firewood doesn't make sense financially, but nevertheless I enjoy scrounging firewood in part because I know it will save me money, and I like the self-sufficiency aspect of wood heat. In this case the financial benefits of wodd heat are worth more than the actual dollars I save.


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## Jack Straw (Oct 9, 2012)

Silent heat with the beautiful flames.......


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## burnt03 (Oct 9, 2012)

We're having "smart" meters installed in our town so time-of-day billing is probably only 2 years down the road.  With electric forced air heating (80A x 240V = 19,000W), I can't choose not to heat during high times so I'd get screwed even more than I am now (first winter bill when we moved in = $560!)

I'm hoping I'll save on the electric bill, even if the furnace only runs 2/3 of the time it'll be worth it to me not to have to pay as much hydro.  Plus, all the firewood is free, mostly within 5min drive.  Also get to be out getting exercise and hopefully teach my two boys (3 and 5) that it's ok to be out working.

Should have a good idea after this winter


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## woodchip (Oct 9, 2012)

Purely on cash terms, we broke even within a year.

3 years ago our utility bills were over £1000, and we could not afford to heat the house properly.

Instalation cost £600, and within a year our utility bills were down to under £400.

Today, our annual utility bills are still under £500, and electricity look like it will rise again in January.

We already had the saws, axes, maul, a wedge, and a sledgehammer, our only new investment being a wood grenade.

The house is now as cosy as we want it, our wood is basically free, and we are independant of the system.

Independance is priceless............


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## jonwright (Oct 9, 2012)

Meh. I save a little each year. I have three kids, all under 5. I don't have time to scrounge wood every weekend, so I buy some (at about $50-$80 a truckload) and also have some wood I cut and split from clearing my lot.

From a monthly bill standpoint I do save some money. Considering that I'm all electric (at + $.10/kw) with only propane for alternative heating, I save a reasonable amount of money - but what I save on my 3 months where wood heat REALLY comes in handy I've *almost* spent in wood.

Winters are mild here in Arkansas, especially lately, so it isn't really a $$ equation for me. I just about break even with monthly cash flow - with the mild winters since I've completed our addition and the cost of the fireplace my timeline for payback on investment is stretching out. Not really a problem as I hope to be in this house for a long time.

BUT.

You just can't back up to a heat pump. When your clothes are wet you can't put them by the exit vent to dry. You can't warm your hands after being outside all day. Christmas time with stockings over your kitchen counters isn't the same. Watching a movie during the winter time at night with the fam, cup of hot tea, and a fire in the fire place = HOME. Getting the kids ready by the fire in the morning and snuggling with a little one by the fire = HOME. Being a white collar worker and having something totally tangible that is a direct result of your efforts = rewarding.

And sitting around in your shorts when it's 35 degrees outside when you are paying for electricity - not gonna happen.  And let's not forget that in the country we do have electricity outages when you need it most (ice storms etc.).

Wood heat just FEELS WARMER than the same temperature with a heat pump. Just does.

I have a well insulated house, but when I put in our wood stove I put in an FPX, the big one (44?). That sucker will flat out roast us in our 3,000 feet of house, keep the upstairs rooms reasonably warm, and has no issues keeping heat in our living room with 30' vaulted ceiling.

I shudder at the thought of keeping the house warm on just the heat pumps - but I could. And on principle I'm not going to have the thermostat set at 75 with the heat pump (we'd be lucky if I have them set at 70), but I can get my entire house warmer in the dead of winter by cranking my stoves.


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## Ashful (Oct 9, 2012)

bogydave said:


> I save some on energy bills
> I save some on gym memberships
> I save some on doctor bills.
> I save some on psychiatrist bills
> ...


 
Perfectly stated.  Without wood, I'd be using roughly $6500 in oil per year, so I'm sure I'm still saving _some _money after buying and feeding all of the wood processing "toys".  That said, I'd be doing this even if it _cost _me money.  What other excuse do you have to go play in the woods every Saturday, while simultaneously working out your frustrations and getting cred from the wife for doing _work?_  Yep... I still have her fooled.


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## firefighterjake (Oct 9, 2012)

Yes


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## onion (Oct 9, 2012)

I know I am saving money over using the old beat up propane furnace the house came with.  More importantly though is the fact that if I didn't burn wood I could never justify owning 3 chainsaws.


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 9, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> I agree, with taxes and delivery fees it works out to be 7.67c/Kwh.
> 
> Supercools: the rate is in Canada dollars (which, for once, are worth more than US dollars. LOL). On that bill I paid 7.67c/kwh with taxes and service charges.
> 
> ...


 
True Chef, that I am retired. Sometimes just plain tired. However, you must also know that I have not always been retired and no doubt went through many of the same trials as you. Stick with it good fellow and it will do you well.


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 9, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys... I guess I certainly shook the hornet's nest on this one. LOL.
> 
> The one thing you are all forgetting is that *my utility bill includes cooking, hot water, clothes dryer, water pump, lights and all other forms of electricity. *Not just heat. Everyone compares wood with electricity but nobody takes into consideration that they also have monthly utility bills on top of wood costs. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I love cutting wood and burning wood. I simply wanted to get a glimpse and other's situations regarding heating. I find myself attempting to defend electrical heating which is really not my goal..I just want to compare apples to apples.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think you hit Bold but just changed the size of the font. That will cause the bold.


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## Backwoods Savage (Oct 9, 2012)

Huntindog1 said:


> Has anyone mentioned that cutting wood is a good past time that gets you outdoors and the end results is not only are you healthier but you save money on your heating bills.
> 
> I guess I could go buy a membership to the local health club, oh I guess I am saving that money also along with a few doctors visit cost savings.


 
Had you read the other posts you would find that many have mentioned it.


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## clemsonfor (Oct 9, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys... I guess I certainly shook the hornet's nest on this one. LOL.
> 
> The one thing you are all forgetting is that *my utility bill includes cooking, hot water, clothes dryer, water pump, lights and all other forms of electricity. *Not just heat. Everyone compares wood with electricity but nobody takes into consideration that they also have monthly utility bills on top of wood costs. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I love cutting wood and burning wood. I simply wanted to get a glimpse and other's situations regarding heating. I find myself attempting to defend electrical heating which is really not my goal..I just want to compare apples to apples.
> 
> ...


 
Your point about other electric charges is why people me included said my bills with electric heat were X and now there Y.

In my case without the stove my peak charges were $250/month. That was with all the same electric devices i have with the stove. And that was keeping the tstat between 60-67F. With the stove i can keep it between 65-85 in the whole house. The bedrooms being the colder, how i like it, and thats in the mournings, evenins are lows 70s. So my electric bills with the stove id say averaged $105. They would fluctuate from high 90s to 110ish. probly the difference was the water heater when cold and maybe more fans running to circulate air??


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## Swedishchef (Oct 9, 2012)

Wow. This thread generated more chatter than I ever imagined!

Jharkin: Nope, the stove and chimney install was part of the construction of the house. I received a construction mortgage of X dollars and did some of the labour myself. With my leftover $ in the mortgage I decided to install a stove and chimney. So is the stove really a sunken cost?? According to the $3500 it added to my mortgage, nopers. LOL.

As a first generation burner, this is new to me. I would say that for every 1 person I was friends with in University or High school that heat with wood, I have 50 that don't. New generations simply are not as much interested in the workload required to heat with wood. I am certainly stereotyping but it's true. There's no* iwood* app or* icut* app. Some people would rather say "I will get a job that pays enough to turn on the heat with the click  of a button". I say" you're nuts". 

My problem is that, not knowing at the time, I installed my stove in my basement. So I still heat upstairs with electricity and downstairs with wood. eventually heat will get upstairs but not efficiently and it takes 3-5 hours for the heat to do so (and I cook myself out of the basement). My house is a 1300 sqft bungalow.

My father was a white collar employee who is useless with his hands. His idea of cutting wood is trimming a hedge. Long story short is that I wanted some wood heat to see what it would be like a fell in love with it. During my searches for a stove I found this site and met Dennis and have been hooked since.

I noticed that lots of people agree that cutting wood is great exercise. And to that I agree: I split all my wood by hand. But I get 3-4 cords of wood cut and split in a week and then it's over...too bad I didn't do it year round!! I don't have that much room on my lot for stacking wood...see pic.

A


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## simple.serf (Oct 9, 2012)

When we bought our house, the gas lease was terminated, the oil burner needed to be rebuilt and the electric heaters, well, they were electrical fire #2. My plan was as follows: 1. Rebuild the oil burner. It provides the domestic HW. 2. Replace the plastic water tank with a good used oil tank. 3. Install wood stove. 4. install wood boiler to only use oil when absolutely needed.

We are still in the planning stages for #4.

Regardless, my house is poorly insulated. The downstairs is concrete block insulated with Vermiculite, and the upstairs is standard stick construction, insulated with fiberglass. Given that all of the windows are original 1972, the estimated cost to heat our house with oil was over $6500. That's almost 1/4 of my yearly "real job" salary. In the winters, i work for a friend that runs a maple syrup business. We tapped 1500 trees then (upping it to 3k this year). I can get all the wood I want free (hence the amount of wood in my yard).

Does heating with wood save me money?

Without a doubt, yes.


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## sebring (Oct 9, 2012)

Wood burning is a second job for most people, where they are the boss.


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## HatCityIAFF (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm going to say yes. Installed insert last winter for roughly $2200. Didn't turn the furnace on all year, didn't spend $2500 on oil.  
Wood is at the parents house and a buddys, about 15 miles away.  Stop on the way home from work, use the old man's saw, buck up a pickup truck load of ash,split it, and bring it home.  Have about 4-5 cords.  So far the only expenses have been a set of fireplace tools, fuel/oil/chains for the saw, supercedars, and a chimney cleaning brush.


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## dorlow (Oct 10, 2012)

It was the pellet stove guy that talked me out of pellets and talked me into cord wood. He pulled up the calculator. I gave him how much I pay for propane per gallon, how much I pay for electric per killowatt, how much pellets were per pallet, how much the average cord wood cost, and how much natural gas was. Natural gas isnt available at my house. But natural gas and cord wood was by far the cheapest. Double per unit of heat was pellets. Then double that was propane and double that was electric.

What I know from what I've spent so far. During the coldest months, I spend about $300-$400 a month for propane to heat my house at 70 degrees and we have a 1500 sq feet house (newer house that is very well insulated.) I spent $500 a year ago on the wood. It lasted last year and I'm expecting for that same $500 wood to last this winter too.

It's a huge savings for me. Granted I just put a new wood stove in for $400. I had to buy a log splitter for $1800. Also there's a lot of small nickle and dime costs to burining wood. But I'm sure I'm way ahead to the $200-$400 a month I was spending with propane.  I don't think it will be much more than a year to recoup my money invested in the log splitter.




Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I understand that I have already asked this question in other posts in the past. However time flies by and I find that various aspects change with time when considering the cost of heating with wood.
> 
> ...


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## Corey (Oct 10, 2012)

Buying a retail stove / liner + 'professional' install + the going market rate on cordwood = probably not much money to be saved, especially compared to natural gas - as the bottom is falling out of NG prices due to all the fracking in the oil shale regions.

Craigslist stove + DIY install + scrounge/'free' wood cutting I think there is a modest amount of money to be saved.


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## charly (Oct 10, 2012)

At 4 dollars a gallon for oil , I'm looking at 1000 dollars for one fill, I'll bet I would use at least two tanks over a winter, keeping the farm house as warm as we do with wood. Burning wood I only used a half tank of oil, 125 gallons over a years time. My wood comes right from my property, free except for labor and equipment to harvest it. My stihl is 10 years old, my tractor 12, so a lot of my stuff has already paid for itself. My wood is never going to cost more as oil will just keep going up. Cooking with my wood cook stove saves me from running an electric oven as well, plus heats the house too. Last year I burned about 6 cords. In my soul I'm saving money, a peace of mind, having the ability to be independent and take care of ourselves. Plus I figure harvesting wood gives me good exercise , keeping my health, so it's a win-win situation. Saves me any doctor bills. I think anyone on here who loves to burn wood doesn't really fret over it being cheaper, it's just in ones blood so to speak that it makes you feel good looking at your work, sitting down by the fire and warming your soul, especially if the power just went out!


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## Ashful (Oct 10, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> I don't have that much room on my lot for stacking wood...see pic.


 
I dunno... looks to me like that front yard almost an acre itself, although I understand why you don't want to stack wood right out front. How big is the back yard? I have 7 cords stacked with room to spare in an area only 35' x 35', in 4' wide rows about 6' apart, each 24' to 32' long.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 10, 2012)

Looks like some already stacked to the left of that camper. perfect place for one.


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## steeltowninwv (Oct 10, 2012)

u gotta take the dive and buy the equipment to cut wood...nothing fancy..beater truck chainsaw and splitting maul...cut it urself and u will save thousands a year....but truly if cost is all u worried about maybe wood heat is not for u.....i started burning wood to save money..no if i had to buy every drop of my wood i still would heat with wood...different kind of heat and stay as warm as u want..but im with bogydave...no gym membership..no doctor bills...never bored...and it keeps me occupied so im not out spending money on something else. It also is teaching my 11 year old  son a real good life lesson and responsibility.


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## RORY12553 (Oct 10, 2012)

bogydave said:


> I save some on energy bills
> I save some on gym memberships
> I save some on doctor bills.
> I save some on psychiatrist bills
> ...


 
I could not agree with the above statements more! Do I save $$ yes I do. At $3.70 a gallon for oil right now I believe that burning wood will make the oil last longer. I fortunately was able to buy oil over the summer for $3.19 a gallon so I am ahead of the game in two respects now. Good luck to everyone this winter!!


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## Huntindog1 (Oct 10, 2012)

Jack Straw said:


> I burn wood just so I can be a member of this site!


 
Amen brother!!


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 10, 2012)

Where i live you can just go the the local recycle center where they have a huge pile of rounds free for the takin. People drop them off after they cut down trees in their yard ect.
Pile is so big they pushed them over the bank cuz not enough people were takin em. I also burn scrap wood from home restoration projects i do. Have too much of that as well.
Cant beat free no matter what your electric ,gas.oil.ect rate is.


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## Ashful (Oct 10, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Where i live you can just go the the local recycle center where they have a huge pile of rounds free for the takin.


 
What is this "recycle center" of which you speak?  I live near eastern central PA, and I wouldn't know where to find such a thing.  We do have a local mulching facility, where the trash haulers dump leaves to be mulched, but it's fenced off from the public, and I've never seen a pile of tree rounds there.


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## dafattkidd (Oct 10, 2012)

There is recycling center in my township as well.  In fact the town I grew up in has recycling center where the workers pick out the reusable construction debris and display it for the public to take. My first season burning I used to go there twice a month season to get construction debris to mix in with my unseasoned cordwood.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 10, 2012)

Joful said:


> I dunno... looks to me like that front yard almost an acre itself, although I understand why you don't want to stack wood right out front. How big is the back yard? I have 7 cords stacked with room to spare in an area only 35' x 35', in 4' wide rows about 6' apart, each 24' to 32' long.


 LOL. I don't think my wife would allow me to stack in the front. I do have some room in the back though. I normally have anywhere between 5-10 cords in the back yard.





Seasoned Oak said:


> Looks like some already stacked to the left of that camper. perfect place for one


Yeah, those are old farm fence posts I have leftover to put in my yard as decorations. Damn camper...sometimes what my wife wants my wife gets.

ANdrew


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## Swedishchef (Oct 10, 2012)

Free rounds?! Holy crap, I would be all over that in a heartbeat....

A


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 10, 2012)

Joful said:


> What is this "recycle center" of which you speak? I live near eastern central PA, and I wouldn't know where to find such a thing. We do have a local mulching facility, where the trash haulers dump leaves to be mulched, but it's fenced off from the public, and I've never seen a pile of tree rounds there.


Each township is different,we get free compost(i get a truckload at a time)free mulch and free wood.You have to reside in the township to use the facility and landscapers and such cant go there. last year they pushed a few semi,s worth of wood over the bank cuz nobody took em. My stock is getting low so ill get some soon.


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## Jeanfirebug (Oct 10, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I understand that I have already asked this question in other posts in the past. However time flies by and I find that various aspects change with time when considering the cost of heating with wood.
> 
> ...


 
BogyDave and others have summed up pretty good.  There's more to burning wood than just saving money.  Certainly $$ is a factor, so if I had to buy wood, it may be in the same category as any other fuel  (i.e.  NG, Propane, electricity, pellets etc) when considering  pros & cons.   I don't think you can consider wood stove, chimney, or any other "equipment" costs, any more than you would consider house furnace, duct work, etc as part of fuel costs. Usually equipment has several purposes.   Some things we do for satisfaction (reducing heating costs) and a meriod of other reason, not the least of which is kicking back and watching the fire burn.


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## Jeanfirebug (Oct 10, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Free rounds?! Holy crap, I would be all over that in a heartbeat....
> 
> A


 
What kind of stove/fire units burns junk wood?  Don't you have to be careful not to burn sappy pitch woods,as it gums up the unit and flue?  Pine/spurce are especially bad in that area.


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## WES999 (Oct 10, 2012)

Yes!
My stove and chimney cost a little over $1000 (got a great deal on a used stove on CL). My house probably costs around $1000  to heat (oil heat). Last winter I only used a few gallons of oil. It has been years since I had an oil delivery, and there is still about 100 gl. in the tank. I have been able to scrounge plenty of wood for free. Never bought a new chainsaw, all were used purchased for short money.

I figure I was saving money after the first year


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## clemsonfor (Oct 10, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Wow. This thread generated more chatter than I ever imagined!
> 
> Jharkin: Nope, the stove and chimney install was part of the construction of the house. I received a construction mortgage of X dollars and did some of the labour myself. With my leftover $ in the mortgage I decided to install a stove and chimney. So is the stove really a sunken cost?? According to the $3500 it added to my mortgage, nopers. LOL.
> 
> ...


 I dont know man? I have a 3/4 acre lot and have a few cords stacked and i could easy stack another 10 around and not impede any real space. Heck i put it in the middle of my back drive, to be in sun and wind. Had i stacked alond the fence like im going now i would not even miss the 10' x 20' area that is solid wood now.


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## dougstove (Oct 10, 2012)

$USD and $CD are almost the same currently, within a cent or so either way.


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## firefighterjake (Oct 11, 2012)

Jeanfirebug said:


> What kind of stove/fire units burns junk wood? Don't you have to be careful not to burn sappy pitch woods,as it gums up the unit and flue? Pine/spurce are especially bad in that area.


 
Nah . . . urban myth about the softwoods.

As long as you season them properly you can pretty much burn any wood in your woodstove . . . well, maybe not petrified wood. The only real drawback to sappy wood like pine and spruce is that it makes a mess while processing as it is sappy . . . well that and you'll be filling up the firebox sooner rather than later . . . but no . . . providing the wood is seasoned it doesn't muck up the stove or chimney . . . heck I would wager if you took a cord of unseasoned hardwood and ran some through the stove it would mess things up much faster than an entire winter's worth of seasoned softwood.


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## Sprinter (Oct 12, 2012)

firefighterjake said:


> Nah . . . urban myth about the softwoods.
> 
> As long as you season them properly you can pretty much burn any wood in your woodstove . . . well, maybe not petrified wood. The only real drawback to sappy wood like pine and spruce is that it makes a mess while processing as it is sappy . . . well that and you'll be filling up the firebox sooner rather than later . . . but no . . . providing the wood is seasoned it doesn't muck up the stove or chimney . . . heck I would wager if you took a cord of unseasoned hardwood and ran some through the stove it would mess things up much faster than an entire winter's worth of seasoned softwood.


Oh, oh. I smell another "don't burn pine" thread coming.

To keep on track, we knew going in that a wood stove was never going to save money. We're at about .052 for electric also, don't get free wood, paid retail for stove & installation, etc. It's for the aesthetics and comfort and mostly because she wanted one. Okay, I like it, too.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 12, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> It's for the aesthetics and comfort and mostly because she wanted one. Okay, I like it, too.


Wow thats a statement not heard often on this site""mostly because she wanted one"


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## Wood Duck (Oct 12, 2012)

Jeanfirebug said:


> What kind of stove/fire units burns junk wood? Don't you have to be careful not to burn sappy pitch woods,as it gums up the unit and flue? Pine/spurce are especially bad in that area.


 
What kind? My stove does!


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## Sprinter (Oct 12, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Wow thats a statement not heard often on this site""mostly because she wanted one"


 Some of the most often seen advice I've seen on this forum is to get the model "she" likes. Pretty good advice at that. She was the driving force in this for the aesthetic, cozy-home-in-the-winter aspects. I was less keen on it because it wasn't economical, but it really is nice, so I'm fully on board.

Oh, and I'm told we have frequent and sometimes persistent power outages here in harsh weather, so it's also valuable for that.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 12, 2012)

Jeanfirebug said:


> What kind of stove/fire units burns junk wood? Don't you have to be careful not to burn sappy pitch woods,as it gums up the unit and flue? Pine/spurce are especially bad in that area.


I burn MOSTLY junk wood. I have a large supply of wood torn out of rehab jobs,some of it probably 100 years old. floor joists,wall studs,lathe boards .oak flooring ect.  
Im sure most of it is pine except the floor boards.Every stove i have burns it just fine especially the harman and the country hearth.


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## jonwright (Oct 12, 2012)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I burn MOSTLY junk wood. I have a large supply of wood torn out of rehab jobs,some of it probably 100 years old. floor joists,wall studs,lathe boards .oak flooring ect.
> Im sure most of it is pine except the floor boards.Every stove i have burns it just fine especially the harman and the country hearth.


 
Some folks pay good money for reclaimed oak flooring.  So I've read.....I didn't.  :D


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## jonwright (Oct 12, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Wow. This thread generated more chatter than I ever imagined!
> 
> Jharkin: Nope, the stove and chimney install was part of the construction of the house. I received a construction mortgage of X dollars and did some of the labour myself. With my leftover $ in the mortgage I decided to install a stove and chimney. So is the stove really a sunken cost?? According to the $3500 it added to my mortgage, nopers. LOL.
> 
> ...


If I recall my term correctly:

A sunk cost is any cost that you can't recoup.  Flexible cost is a cost that changes with use - like if you purchase wood and the cost of gas and your time to collect wood.  The more you use the more cost you have.

You could consider the cost of the stove an opportunity cost - as you could have put it back on your mortgage instead of spending it somewhere else (i.e. your stove).

While most folks may consider the cost of the stove in calculating the return on investment (and I think you should) it's unlikely that you'll rip it out and sell it out of your house. And if you take a hit on the value of the stove if you do - that is certainly a sunk cost.

As for effort and the iwood or icut app:  if folks get cold and have no alternative as they aren't employed they may find alternative sources of heat by necessity.  But that's a whole other subject, isn't it?

But I do see where there seem to be less people able and willing to do work themselves, be it work on the house, the car, or manual labor like collecting/splitting wood.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 12, 2012)

I never thought you could heat much with scrap wood, I figured it would burn too quickly...guess I was wrong!

jonwright: thanks for the precision on definitions. My initial question was simply about savings vs cost regarding wood heat compared to any other sources. I understand your "sunk cost" and "opportunity" cost definitions. It's the same as people who want to buy a hybrid to save gas money. Hogwash I say! Some hybrid models are $5000 more than the non-hybrid versions. $5000 is a LOT of gas, not to mention the cost of maintenance on the battery system.

This was an interesting thread. Lots of great answers and lots of different opinions. I guess it comes down to one thing: everyone here enjoys having another heat source (if you have 2 sources) and that source is wood!

Andrew


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## Cluttermagnet (Oct 15, 2012)

The calculus was very simple for me- oil prices were going through the roof at the same time that my income was decreasing. Oil transitioned from ho hum to onerously expensive to flat out unaffordable. I cut off my oil supplier. Still get frequent "we miss you' postcards. There was one in today's mail.

I was lucky- I was given an old stove. Researched all the safety issues using this forum and did my own install. I have continuing access to free wood, from multiple sources. Process it all myself. I like the exercise, the extra winter warmth, the entire way of life. It's been five years now.

I spent a few bucks here and there- for a chainsaw, an X27 splitting axe, etc. but no major outlays. In my case, there is no doubt that my wood burning addiction transitioned into the black after the first year. (I had to pay to have a huge Red Oak taken down- that was some fairly expensive firewood) It was a fast payback for a small investment. It's true I'm discounting the value of my hours. There are considerable hours involved. But being semi-retired, I can focus on the great experience and think of it all as a free sports club membership.
And ultimately, it *is* 'free' heat.

I'd probably be spending $4-5K per year if I still heated with oil.


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## Sprinter (Oct 15, 2012)

Cluttermagnet said:


> The calculus was very simple for me- oil prices were going through the roof at the same time that my income was decreasing. Oil transitioned from ho hum to onerously expensive to flat out unaffordable. I cut off my oil supplier. Still get frequent "we miss you' postcards. There was one in today's mail.
> 
> I was lucky- I was given an old stove. Researched all the safety issues using this forum and did my own install. I have continuing access to free wood, from multiple sources. Process it all myself. I like the exercise, the extra winter warmth, the entire way of life. It's been five years now.
> 
> ...


Wow.  I feel so fortunate that I've never had to heat with oil except for one year a long time ago.

How much wood do you go through in a season?


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## westkywood (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm saving a but-load of money burning wood. I've got around $2300.00 invested in my stove and install. My central heat is propane. I've got a 500 gallon propane tank sitting out there that should last me 4-5 years. I filled the tank 2 winters ago and I've only used about 30% of it. I cut all my own wood, so I save a lot there. I figured at the rate of buying propane my stove will easily pay for itself in 3-4 years. Plus you have to think about the wear and tear you are not putting on your heating unit. If I had to buy the wood, I really don't know if I'd fool with it.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 30, 2012)

Logical answer...every person's situation is different. But one thing is certain: we all love heating wood!


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## tlc1976 (Oct 30, 2012)

Heating with wood is the ONLY way I can afford to heat the house these days.  If I still used propane I always went through 2 tanks a year so $2000 at today's prices, $2.50/gal for 800 gallons.  But the furnace has a cracked heat exchanger which almost killed me when it cracked so it is shut down permanently.  Has been shut down for almost 7 years and honestly I don't miss it.

Closing off rooms, the house can be heated with 2 electric heaters, if running 24/7 is about $120/month each added to the bill.  Which I still don't have.  With all the fees, it is typically 11 cents per kwh.

I usually average 6 cord a year.  If I bought it, it would generally be $55-$70 a cord split and delivered.  But I scrounge and cut from property of friends and family.  We have the landscape drop off too with more rounds than they know what to do with.  I was given a Craftsman 18" bar chainsaw which works great, but if it ever quit I have seen small Stihls in the local paper time and time again for $50-$100.  I split it all by hand.  I can haul about 1.5-1.75 cord with my 5x8 trailer and say I use 4 gallons of gas round trip each to get it, 4 trips to get my 6 cord, that's $64 in gas to haul the season's wood.  Maybe a gas can worth of gas for the saw.  I just use my old engine oil for the bar which some people swear against but it works for me and I'm still on the same chain after something like 5 years.

The stove was here when I bought the house.  But you want to figure stove purchase/installation, you would also have to figure furnace purchase/installation to be fair.  That would be the one area where electric could win.

I do like harvesting the wood, splitting it, sitting in front of the fire.  I like the smell of the saw and the smell of the fire.  I like the thought of being off the grid at least in that respect.  Sometimes it is a pain since I am gone a lot and am the only one here, and when it is going to be really cold and I will be gone for more than a day I will leave a ceramic heater running on the kitchen stove so the pipes don't freeze (had that happen once before for that reason).


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## wacnstac (Oct 31, 2012)

I have a surplus of oak and rarely have to cut trees down to supply my stash.   I cull the ones that the storms take out.   I bought my saw and splitter long ago.   I can essentially keep my propane furnace off.   So yeah, it really saves money.


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## Agent (Oct 31, 2012)

The beauty of wood heat is that you can vary how much it costs by varying how much work you put into it.

My nearest wood source is a 150 mile round trip. 
I can either pay $150-200 a cord for pine, or:

My cost is 10 gallons of diesel for the truck ~ $40
Cutting permit $5/cord.
Gallon of gas for saw ~$4
By getting 1 cord at a time, my cost - even with two hours of driving - is about $50/cord.
1 1/2 cords at a time drops it to about $30/cord.

Burning 3-4 cords a year equates a yearly expense of about $200 for full house heating to a more than comfortable temperature.

Utility records show that previous owners heated with 100% electric, and their utility bills were at a minimum $200 a month higher, generally paying about $1,000+ a year extra for heat.  The first year alone paid for the upgrade from old smoke dragon to Englander 30NC.  Every one past that, I get to decide to reinvest in my equipment, or bank the dough.


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## SouthernBreeze (Oct 31, 2012)

I've ran all the calculations on this and the bottom line is, yes, it saves me money but the payback is so long that from a purely financial standpoint, it doesn't make financial since for my system. With that being said, I still chose to do the install and heat with wood for other reasons that have already been discussed in this thread.


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## Ashful (Oct 31, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Logical answer...every person's situation is different. But one thing is certain: we all love heating wood!


 
I don't bother heating my wood. It sits outdoors. 



tlc1976 said:


> I usually average 6 cord a year. If I bought it, it would generally be $55-$70 a cord split and delivered.


 
Really?!? Around here, split and delivered is over $200 per cord. If I could buy it for under $70, it would be real hard to justify collecting and splitting it on my own. Don't forget a good saw is over $500 (most of us have several), a splitter is typically over $1000, and there's wear and tear on your body, truck, tractor, etc.

However, even at $200 per cord, oil is still 2.5x to 3.5x more expensive, per delivered BTU. I scrounge and process all my wood for "free", minus equipment costs, but I hate to think of the work I put into saving $200 in wood. I prefer to think of the work I'm putting into saving $600 in oil.



tlc1976 said:


> I do like harvesting the wood, splitting it, sitting in front of the fire. I like the smell of the saw and the smell of the fire.


 
Ditto.


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## tlc1976 (Oct 31, 2012)

Do you happen to mean full cord?  Around here, cord always means face cord, always has, always will.  So a full cord here would be $165-$210.  Actually this year is the first year I've seen it in hit $70, but plenty still for $55.


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## David Tackett (Oct 31, 2012)

Not only do I save money, but I have better heat. Wood heat superior to electric heat any day.  A REAL cord of seasoned split oak here is 150 bucks delivered, but I try to obtain my own wood free.


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## nate379 (Oct 31, 2012)

tlc1976 said:


> Do you happen to mean full cord?  Around here, cord always means face cord, always has, always will.  So a full cord here would be $165-$210.  Actually this year is the first year I've seen it in hit $70, but plenty still for $55.





tlc1976 said:


> Do you happen to mean full cord?  Around here, cord always means face cord, always has, always will.  So a full cord here would be $165-$210.  Actually this year is the first year I've seen it in hit $70, but plenty still for $55.



I'd venture to say that 99.99999% of the time when someone refers to a cord they mean 128 cu ft.  Face cord isn't a measurement.  You could end up with 1/4 of a cord or a full cord, all depending on the length!


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## Waulie (Oct 31, 2012)

nate379 said:


> I'd venture to say that 99.99999% of the time when someone refers to a cord they mean 128 cu ft. Face cord isn't a measurement. You could end up with 1/4 of a cord or a full cord, all depending on the length!


 
Not here, Nate.  In Michigan, a "cord" of wood _is_ a face cord.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's just the way it is.  If you say a "cord" of firewood, 99.99999% of people in Michigan will understand you to mean a "face cord".  Also, I think it is the same way in other places.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 31, 2012)

I have had discussions with people in various places about "cords". Some places refer to a cord as 1 row of 16 inch wood, 8 feet long and 16 inches wide. Others (like myself) consider a cord to be 128 cu feet. Depends on where you live I guess..


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## bluedogz (Oct 31, 2012)

I haven't done the math on this, but  do know that our house had an antiquated (late '70's) heat pump- the kind that made the A/C tech say, "Boy, haven't seen one of THOSE in a while..."  If we ran that for a 72 deg. house, our electric bill would push $800 US.  I started using my old smoke dragon as much as I could, and we got that down to about $400.  

Enter a reline courtesy of Hogwildz and a new-to-me NC30 and some scrounged BL and hickory, and that bill is down to about $150.

We also bought a modern 18-SEER heat pump too, which complicates the math.


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## Swedishchef (Oct 31, 2012)

Sounds like you are saving a pile of money Bluedogz! Good for ya!

How do you like the 30?

Andrew


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## Ashful (Oct 31, 2012)

Around here, a "cord" = a cord = 128 cu.ft., more or less.  Trouble is, I measure it stacked, and some suppliers measure it piled haphazardly in a dump truck.  Their cord still measures 128 cu.ft., as piled, but contains a lot more air than my cord.


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## bluedogz (Oct 31, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Sounds like you are saving a pile of money Bluedogz! Good for ya!
> 
> How do you like the 30?
> 
> Andrew


 
TBH, this site made me a wood heat convert.  I was throwing wood into the dragon, thinking "It's just burning wood; how hard can that be?"  A spell of unemployment made me even more frugal, then I stumbled across hearth.com and discovered what the whole problem was... &%#@y wood plus *%$y stove equals &*$#y heat!

The 30 has even converted Mrs.Blue, to the point where she shoos me away from the thermostat when I check the house temp and she eyeballs potential scrounges on the way to work.


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## John_M (Oct 31, 2012)

Installed my PE Spectrum during 2009 and was then paying $2.89 per gallon for propane. An analysis during that time indicated it would take about ten years to make up the cost of the entire stove installation and wood processing supplies. I was doing my own firewood. The attractive home improvement afforded by the PE Spectrum was not part of the cost calculation.

Since then, for health reasons, I have had to purchse my wood cut, split and delivered (I stack). Am paying $150.00 per 128 cu. ft. cord for mixed, unseasoned hardwood - mainly maple, ash and hickory. Burn about 3.5 cords per year. Propane has dropped to $2.10 per gallon. Use approx 500 gals per year. My average monthly electric bill is <$39.00.

I have never again recalculated the cost/benefit analysis of burning wood. Wood heat and the physical effort needed to stack and haul splits is to me, one of life's great pleasures. I have little or no interest in whether using wood to heat my home costs or saves me a few dollars each year.

Life is grand just as it is. No need to change.

Best wishes and good luck. 

Edit: In reference to joful's comment about his splits being "properly stacked": This definition is usually part of the definition of a cord of split wood. Usually, the state agency definitions I have read indicate splits must be "tightly stacked" and not tossed into a pile.


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## Sprinter (Oct 31, 2012)

Joful said:


> Around here, a "cord" = a cord = 128 cu.ft., more or less. Trouble is, I measure it stacked, and some suppliers measure it piled haphazardly in a dump truck. Their cord still measures 128 cu.ft., as piled, but contains a lot more air than my cord.


This problem will never go away.

Probably the best way would be to agree up front with the supplier that they will only get paid when (1) Some random splits are measured for moisture content (if that's an issue), and (2) The wood is stacked straight and measured. Good luck finding somebody willing to comply with those terms. Although, if you pay a little extra for help stacking rather than just dumping a pile, it would make it a lot easier to measure while he's still there.  That gives you something to negotiate with.  I did  that last spring and they were willing to negotiate down because their three cords were obviously short and they did advertise a "full cord".   It might be worth finding a good, reliable, professional,  provider that you can count on and probably pay a premium for the reputation, but there aren't any around here. 

Sorry, this may be getting afield of the OP, but it does factor into running costs.


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## rideau (Oct 31, 2012)

tlc1976 said:


> Do you happen to mean full cord? Around here, cord always means face cord, always has, always will. So a full cord here would be $165-$210. Actually this year is the first year I've seen it in hit $70, but plenty still for $55.


 
That's going to be confusing to people on this site -the overwhelming majority mean a full cord when mentioning cord...so it would help if you say face cord or convert face cord to full  cord for your postings, in situations where understanding the quantity referred to matters.  
In both the US and Canada there is a legal definition of cord and ir essentially is a stack of wood 8 feet by 4 feet by 4 feet, and it is legitimate for that stack to be 1/3 air.  That leaves about 86 solid cubic feet of wood minimum in a cord.


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## HDRock (Oct 31, 2012)

Waulie said:


> Not here, Nate.  In Michigan, a "cord" of wood is a face cord.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that's just the way it is.  If you say a "cord" of firewood, 99.99999% of people in Michigan will understand you to mean a "face cord".  Also, I think it is the same way in other places.


 
That's how it is here, if they don't say "a full cord" then they are talking about a face cord, 8 ft long,4 ft hi, 16 inches front to back


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## Sprinter (Oct 31, 2012)

HDRock said:


> That's how it is here, if they don't say "a full cord" then they are talking about a face cord, 8 ft long,4 ft hi, 16 inches front to back


 
I think I'd be really PO'd if they advertised a "cord"  for $150 and delivered a face and the guy says "I never said a _full _cord"! 

Of course, if it's $50, then I guess that would be a dead giveaway.


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## bag of hammers (Oct 31, 2012)

John_M said:


> Installed my PE Spectrum during 2009 and was then paying $2.89 per gallon for propane. An analysis during that time indicated it would take about ten years to make up the cost of the entire stove installation and wood processing supplies. I was doing my own firewood. The attractive home improvement afforded by the PE Spectrum was not part of the cost calculation.
> 
> Since then, for health reasons, I have had to purchse my wood cut, split and delivered (I stack). Am paying $150.00 per 128 cu. ft. cord for mixed, unseasoned hardwood - mainly maple, ash and hickory. Burn about 3.5 cords per year. Propane has dropped to $2.10 per gallon. Use approx 500 gals per year. My average monthly electric bill is <$39.00.
> 
> ...


 
Even the CHMC Guide to Residential Wood Heating talks about the confusion around measuring wood - "face cord, stove cord or furnace cord" all being used to describe "a stack of wood".  

In several years, I've only purchased a couple skids of milled hardwood ends (love these), and a couple of "face" cords as insurance one year (broken shoulder).   The rest has all been from the property and surrounding area.  So I had to bite the bullet a bit.  But to be fair to the guys I bought from (they had a good reputation) they probably delivered 50% more than what I expected, at least after it was stacked and measured by me.  So I didn't get too hung up on the semantics.  As long as I knew what I was getting.

From what I saw then, most of the cutters in my area (I'm in Northern Ontario) would deliver a single row 16" x 4' x 8' as a  "cord" - for @ $65 - $70 typically. 

Agree with you John 100% - I know I'm saving $ but at the end of the day, it's the outside time and exercise, the joy on the dog's face, the warmth that hits me as soon as I step back inside - all that I can't express in terms of $ and cents.


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## firecracker_77 (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't save money but I am alot warmer than the equivalent money in natural gas.  That and I don't worry about it since I love building fires.


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## rdust (Oct 31, 2012)

tlc1976 said:


> Do you happen to mean full cord? Around here, cord always means face cord, always has, always will. So a full cord here would be $165-$210. Actually this year is the first year I've seen it in hit $70, but plenty still for $55.


 
Most talk around here is real 128 cu' cords.  Face cords seems to be a regional thing, Michigan and New York seem to be two of the bigger offenders.  I speak full cords here in Michigan and always say I have 20 cords or 60 face cords when talking to the locals.


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## ailanthus (Oct 31, 2012)

~3 year payoff for new stove & new chimney based on saving ~$2K/year vs. heating oil.  Yes, it really does save me money.  BTW I've invested in one chainsaw, one maul, zero hydraulics, zero woodsheds, zero trucks and zero trailers, or it would be much less so.  Love the other benefits that others have mentioned as well.


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## eujamfh (Oct 31, 2012)

We definitely save compared to electric.  Could we survive (temps around 68 degrees) on electric around the cost of what we put into the wood stoves and tools...yes. Could I keep the house in the mid-70s for the same cost as electric...no way.  

Wife, kids and dogs as they get older all like it warm.  Me - I am in shorts year round in my house...but to do that with electric, it would cost a bunch even with pretty inexpensive electric.  

Also there is zero doubt wood heat feels better.


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## Dunragit (Nov 1, 2012)

my electric is $.07 kWh and I have a NG forced air furnace but my stove gives me the heat in that area we wanted
it wasn't about saving money but having comfort

plus we are pyros


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## nate379 (Nov 1, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> I think I'd be really PO'd if they advertised a "cord"  for $150 and delivered a face and the guy says "I never said a _full _cord"!
> 
> Of course, if it's $50, then I guess that would be a dead giveaway.



Had that happen to a customer I delivered wood to this summer.  Another "supplier" sold him 2 cords and showed up with a pickup truck with wood tossed in to a bit over the bed rails.  Supplier was not happy when the customer only paid for 1/2 a cord, which is what he had.

I get the impression MANY "suppliers" short people.  Just about everyone I delivered to this summer said " holy chit.... that's 2 cords?"

Had one fellow that woul get "2 cords" every year and it would fill his woodshed.  I helped him stack and I had easily 3/4 of a cord on my trailer after we had packed that shed to the gills.


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## TradEddie (Nov 1, 2012)

My house came with an old smoke dragon insert, that was a sunken cost. All I had to recoup was $135 every two years to sweep the chimney. When that insert needed replacing, I had to decide if the cost and benefits were worth spending almost $5k for insert, liner and installation. I have a good job, I can afford to heat my house with propane, I like programming a thermostat and coming in to a warm house, but buying a new insert was still an easy decision:

I live on a wooded lot, I have to pay a tree service to take down trees that are threatening my house, it costs me extra to remove the wood, my wood is not just free, burning it saves me money.
My chainsaw paid for itself the first day I bought it - to remove fallen trees from my driveway.
I need backup heat, to keep us from freezing to death if we get snowed in for several days with no power.
Someone upthread mentioned the satisfaction of being a white collar worker finally seeing something tangible for your labor, that's me chopping wood.
I get to fool myself into thinking burning wood offsets the carbon footprint of unnecessarily large cars.
I get to sit drinking beer in shorts and t-shirt while its snowing outside.

My wild ass guesstimate is that supplementing with wood at weekends saves about $500 every year, and costs me less than $50, plus my time. If I valued my time at my overtime billing rate, it's a massive loss-making hobby.

I can't see the savings from wood ever outweighing the convenience of automatic heat, I would never choose to heat with wood exclusively, but I could never live without it.

TE





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## greenbrierwv (Nov 1, 2012)

when i first moved into my new house i didnt have any wood supply ready so i depended 100% on my propane boiler to heat the home.  It cost me id say almost $2000 for the winter easily.  I burned 24/7 the last two winters and maybe burned $100 in propane in that amount of time.  i cut all my own wood and process it.  i kinda like the work as i dont have cable tv and it keeps me outside.  So yes, im saving piles of money by not using my boiler and burning with wood.  Enough to pay for my brand new Woodstock Progress this season, which is working very well.  Theres really nothing better than sitting by a warm stove and watching the snow come down outside.


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## Cluttermagnet (Nov 2, 2012)

Sprinter said:


> Wow. I feel so fortunate that I've never had to heat with oil except for one year a long time ago.
> 
> How much wood do you go through in a season?


 
Sorry, Sprinter- I just noticed your post #122 and direct question. It's been busy here lately. Last month, I had to take apart a huge Poplar tree that fell in my back yard.

I may have been exaggerating slightly on the oil costs, but in a bad year, it might actually go that high. Remember, back then I was still heating my entire house. I'm using probably around 2-3 cords of wood in an average winter. In all, quite manageable, and not that much of a dollar outlay. Better insulation might cut that in half. They didn't insulate very well in my area in the 60's. Fuel was cheap back then.


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## ohlongarm (Nov 2, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I understand that I have already asked this question in other posts in the past. However time flies by and I find that various aspects change with time when considering the cost of heating with wood.
> 
> ...


I don't care about electric or oil,wood or gas heat is the best by far,and I'd rather be as self sufficient as possible without relying on utility companies ,who have way too many people at their mercy.JMHO I'd go to coal before resorting to any other source of heat other than wood,coal will be king if Romney wins,as it should be.


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## ohlongarm (Nov 2, 2012)

I don't care about gas,oil,or electric for heat wood beats them all in my opinion,besides it's too costly in most cases. Coal would be my next option if not for wood,coal is a resource we can't ignore and must be exploited to its maximum potential.


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## TradEddie (Nov 2, 2012)

Until you can figure out a way to heat with coal by flicking a switch, coal (or wood) will never be king.

TE


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## Ashful (Nov 2, 2012)

Half the folks I work with have been without power since Monday, thanks to hurricane Sandy. Most of them are cold and miserable. I was only without power 24 hours, but even if not, my home is toasty and warm. Thanks to my wood stove.

What amount of money is that worth?


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## Swedishchef (Nov 2, 2012)

Joful buddy: that is priceless.

Ohlongarm: I think coal is one of the dirtiest heating methods around. I may be mistaken. I understand that it is a huge part of the economy where you live however I don't know if it should dominate the heating choices of a modern society. Do they make EPA coal stoves?? Where else in the US is coal mined?


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## CT_Sub_Officer (Nov 2, 2012)

Swedishchef said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I understand that I have already asked this question in other posts in the past. However time flies by and I find that various aspects change with time when considering the cost of heating with wood.
> 
> ...


 

$.052 per KWH seems very low to me.  Is that total or supply or distribution?  In the states it is not uncommon to pay $.07 to the electricity supplier then $.07 to the electricity distributor (all in the same bill).  That is actually exactly what I pay, about $.142 per KWH.

I did some calculations on my own and came to the following:

My house requires 1.12*10^8 BTUs per year (based on last year's oil usage)

-White/Red Oak costs me 200.00 for 24.2M BTU so I need about 4.5 cords for about 900.00 per year.  
-Oil (my other option) costs me 3.56 per gallon for 140K BTU per gallon.  I need 800 gallons for just under 3000.00 per year.
-Electric .142 per KWH, costs about 4600.00 per year.

Conclusion is pretty obvious that wood makes the most sense.  That said, I cannot heat with wood alone, my house is too big and spread out.  My goal is to cut Oil consumption by 50% or more and to scrounge 2 cords per year.


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## Swedishchef (Nov 2, 2012)

With taxes I paid $0.077/kWh. In your case it is quite clear that wood is certainly cheaper...
"
Amount due by November 1, 2012
Montant à payer au plus tard le 1 novembre 2012
122,61 $ for 1590 kW/h"


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## Waulie (Nov 2, 2012)

ohlongarm said:


> I don't care about electric or oil,wood or gas heat is the best by far,and I'd rather be as self sufficient as possible without relying on utility companies ,who have way too many people at their mercy.JMHO I'd go to coal before resorting to any other source of heat other than wood,coal will be king if Romney wins,as it should be.


 
??

So another non-renewable resource that burns dirty and requires massive amounts of other non-renewable resource to extract, process, and deliver should be king?  How exactly do you process and stock up on coal without relying on some "company" to do so for you?  I can cut down my own trees, which will grow back.  I'm not about to dig my own coal mine.


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## Swedishchef (Nov 2, 2012)

When I was young I thought if I dug a hole in my backyard I would end up in China. I would have hit a coal mine on my way there....


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## pen (Nov 2, 2012)

If the coal debate wants to be continued, there are other rooms on here to keep it going in a new thread.

Otherwise, I think the original poster's question has been well responded too.

Closing it down.

pen


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