# Here come the EVs



## begreen (Jun 4, 2021)

The trend is gaining momentum. 








						Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think - BBC News
					

The BBC's Justin Rowlatt explains why we are accelerating towards an electric car future.




					www.bbc.com


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## semipro (Jun 4, 2021)

I'm starting to suspect that grid capacity will thwart/delay EV adoption, especially that of larger vehicles with higher capacity batteries. The amount of energy conveyed in liquid fuels to vehicles is immense and replacing that with flowing electrons will be a real challenge.
Don't get me wrong, I drive an EV and strongly support their adoption.  I just think we've got some work to do to support what auto manufacturers are planning. 
Related article:








						EV rollout will require huge investments in strained U.S. power grids
					

During several days of brutal cold in Texas, the city of Austin saw its fleet of 12 new electric buses rendered inoperative by a statewide power outage. That problem will be magnified next year, when officials plan to start purchasing electric-powered vehicles exclusively.




					www.reuters.com


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## EbS-P (Jun 4, 2021)

semipro said:


> I'm starting to suspect that grid capacity will thwart/delay EV adoption,


I found this a reasonably thoughtful assessment......Evan


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## clancey (Jun 4, 2021)

I saw a picture the other day of hundreds of electric cars in a parking lot left there that they picked up because of battery trouble and not enough of power for the recharging stations----just abandoned---looked like a junk yard in the picture and looked just like when they abandon those bikes all over and they come and get them with trucks..Do not know which country this picture was taken in but it sure gave me a very uneasy feeling and our country "really" has a "trash problem" and the "seas" are polluted--terrible.. With the cost of these electric cars they will only be for the better off people and the less rich people will most likely have to drive somewhere with a bunch of other people. They will start at about 50.000 now who among us could afford that plus the up keep of your home...I am not looking forward to the future and I am a pessimist and at this time in my life feeling pessimistic as well--aches and pains--lol  clancey


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## bholler (Jun 4, 2021)

clancey said:


> I saw a picture the other day of hundreds of electric cars in a parking lot left there that they picked up because of battery trouble and not enough of power for the recharging stations----just abandoned---looked like a junk yard in the picture and looked just like when they abandon those bikes all over and they come and get them with trucks..Do not know which country this picture was taken in but it sure gave me a very uneasy feeling and our country "really" has a "trash problem" and the "seas" are polluted--terrible.. With the cost of these electric cars they will only be for the better off people and the less rich people will most likely have to drive somewhere with a bunch of other people. They will start at about 50.000 now who among us could afford that plus the up keep of your home...I am not looking forward to the future and I am a pessimist and at this time in my life feeling pessimistic as well--aches and pains--lol  clancey


Can you link to that picture?  Is there any background on it?   I can go take pictures of multiple lots full of ice vehicles broken down.  They are called salvage yards and I see no reason there wouldn't be ones that specialize in ev or hybrids.

   And yes currently we are in the early stages of ev production so the prices are a bit higher than ice vehicles.  But if you compare them to vehicles with similar performance and options they really don't cost more and the fuel and maintenance costs are lower.   I just don't understand the strong resistance to EVs from some.   No they are not the right solution for everyone yet by any means.  But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them or with developing more.  

But yes without question we will need some infrastructure upgrades


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## ABMax24 (Jun 4, 2021)

I did some basic napkin math the other day, if every car in Alberta (about 4 million of them) was an EV with efficiency of a Model Y, and everyone of those drove 50km everyday, and everyone of them charged at the same time over an 8hr period at night, that would place an additional demand on the Alberta power grid of 4000MW for those 8hrs. The current night time power consumption in Alberta is about 8000-9000MW and 9000-11000MW during the day time. 

So with the power grid we already have we are most of the way to absorbing this additional energy demand. Sure extra transmission lines would need to be built along with new generation stations, but this isn't an insurmountable task by any means. For us the biggest issue would be residential power distribution on the utility side, almost every home here comes standard with a 100 amp 120/240 volt split phase service, but many utilities have not sized their end to handle all of these being pushed to the max at once, it is quite possible transformers and even feeder cables would need to be upgraded in many neighborhoods. Of course all this assuming the EV's are charged at home.


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## bholler (Jun 4, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I did some basic napkin math the other day, if every car in Alberta (about 4 million of them) was an EV with efficiency of a Model Y, and everyone of those drove 50km everyday, and everyone of them charged at the same time over an 8hr period at night, that would place an additional demand on the Alberta power grid of 4000MW for those 8hrs. The current night time power consumption in Alberta is about 8000-9000MW and 9000-11000MW during the day time.
> 
> So with the power grid we already have we are most of the way to absorbing this additional energy demand. Sure extra transmission lines would need to be built along with new generation stations, but this isn't an insurmountable task by any means. For us the biggest issue would be residential power distribution on the utility side, almost every home here comes standard with a 100 amp 120/240 volt split phase service, but many utilities have not sized their end to handle all of these being pushed to the max at once, it is quite possible transformers and even feeder cables would need to be upgraded in many neighborhoods. Of course all this assuming the EV's are charged at home.


I don't doubt it can be dealt with but atleast in the us we don't have the greatest track record when it comes to infrastructure maintenance and upgrades.   And of course the power companies will want money to help them upgrade but then want to keep all the profits made possible by those upgrades


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## semipro (Jun 4, 2021)

clancey said:


> With the cost of these electric cars they will only be for the better off people and the less rich people will most likely have to drive somewhere with a bunch of other people.


I'm not rich by any measure but could afford a used Nissan Leaf for $13k with 30k miles on it.   Similar vehicles are available for much less.  Also, the cost of operation is very low compared to a conventional infernal combustion vehicle so lifetime cost should be well below conventional vehicles. 
Sure, it takes more thought and planning considering range limitations and charging but that's the price that I and others are willing to pay for more sustainable mobility.  

BTW, I just happened to write a proposal today to work with affordable housing providers to provide short-term rental EVs at multi-family housing facilities - like the Zipcar model but with EVs.


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## ABMax24 (Jun 4, 2021)

bholler said:


> I don't doubt it can be dealt with but atleast in the us we don't have the greatest track record when it comes to infrastructure maintenance and upgrades.   And of course the power companies will want money to help them upgrade but then want to keep all the profits made possible by those upgrades



I do definitely see that as an issue in many parts of the US, it seems every time upgrades are needed that utilities won't budge until huge sums of taxpayer dollars are handed over to utilities.

Our system is similar but different. Our utility (ATCO is ours, other areas have different operators) operates on a cost + profit (something like 13%) basis regulated by the provincial government, where costs are recovered from ratepayers from fixed monthly charges  and variable charges based on consumption. With this system there is incentive for the utility to complete upgrades to transmission equipment, because there are more profits to be made if they can justify the cost of more upgrades. We do pay more than some jurisdictions in transmission fees, but we are a large area with relatively small population as well, and our system is quite reliable in most areas. An 8hr outage is a very rare occurrence here.

Large transmission projects are controlled by the AESO (Alberta Electrical System Operator) and these projects are paid by a small fee taken out of wholesale electricity rates.

The vast majority of our electrical system is paid for by end users, as it should be, which for the most part keeps government and taxpayer dollars out of the system.


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## clancey (Jun 4, 2021)

View attachment 279362


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## clancey (Jun 4, 2021)

I am trying to get the image now:
This is a boneyard near Paris, France with hundreds of electric powered cars. Mind you these are only cars used by the City of Paris and not personal vehicles. All of these have the same issue,.... the battery storage cells have given out and need replaced. Why not just replace them you ask? Well two reasons. First the battery storage cells cost almost double what the vehicle cost new, and second no landfill or disposals will allow the batteries to be disposed of there. So these green fairy tale electric cars are all sitting in vacant lots while their batteries drain toxins into the ground.
I cannot get the pictures up and do not know how to do this but there are about 100 or more of these city cars lined up all in neat rows and I will grab someone who can get the picture up for me but I got the beginning of the sentence anyway explaining what the picture is of and I am winging it with my computer skills here..lol  clancey


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## bholler (Jun 4, 2021)

clancey said:


> I am trying to get the image now:
> This is a boneyard near Paris, France with hundreds of electric powered cars. Mind you these are only cars used by the City of Paris and not personal vehicles. All of these have the same issue,.... the battery storage cells have given out and need replaced. Why not just replace them you ask? Well two reasons. First the battery storage cells cost almost double what the vehicle cost new, and second no landfill or disposals will allow the batteries to be disposed of there. So these green fairy tale electric cars are all sitting in vacant lots while their batteries drain toxins into the ground.
> I cannot get the pictures up and do not know how to do this but there are about 100 or more of these city cars lined up all in neat rows and I will grab someone who can get the picture up for me but I got the beginning of the sentence anyway explaining what the picture is of and I am winging it with my computer skills here..lol  clancey


No the batteries aren't disposed on in a landfill they are recycled.  And no batteries do not cost twice what the car costs new that simply is not true.  Those cars may be at a point that replacing the batteries isn't worth doing but the same happens all the time with ice vehicles.  I would bet the batteries were already pulled.  Good cells saved to be used to repair other cars in the fleet and bad ones recycled.


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## andym (Jun 4, 2021)

I also heard someone talking about this large field of junk EVs. Decided to Google it and here is what I found. 








						Fact Check-Electric cars taken off French roads due to contract termination, not battery fault
					

Dozens of electric cars were left in a field in France because the company’s contract with local authorities ran out and not because of an issue with their battery storage cells as social media users questioning the environmental benefits of electric cars are claiming.




					www.reuters.com
				



This is just one of many articles explaining what the real story is behind the field of EVs. They are not junk or leaking toxic fluid. They are awaiting resale because an auto sharing company lost money and a contract. 
I cannot vouch for the truth of the above article, but I would believe that quicker than anything on social media.


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## bholler (Jun 4, 2021)

andym said:


> I also heard someone talking about this large field of junk EVs. Decided to Google it and here is what I found.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for doing a little research on the story.  I typically would but was busy.


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## begreen (Jun 4, 2021)

semipro said:


> I'm not rich by any measure but could afford a used Nissan Leaf for $13k with 30k miles on it.   Similar vehicles are available for much less.  Also, the cost of operation is very low compared to a conventional infernal combustion vehicle so lifetime cost should be well below conventional vehicles.
> Sure, it takes more thought and planning considering range limitations and charging but that's the price that I and others are willing to pay for more sustainable mobility.
> 
> BTW, I just happened to write a proposal today to work with affordable housing providers to provide short-term rental EVs at multi-family housing facilities - like the Zipcar model but with EVs.


Yes, they are making great deals on new Bolts now plus there are some nice deals on lease returns as well for under 20k.


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## clancey (Jun 4, 2021)

Good to have so many eyes looking at stories like this...clancey


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## maple1 (Jun 5, 2021)

I might have missed stuff, but have yet to see an electric SUV. Which I think is the best selling class of vehicle these days (considering the wide variety of sizes/classes).  Seems manufacturers are missing targets in that? My personal vehicle preference is something like Pilot/Grand Cherokee class. Would be quite interested in an electric something like that. The PHEV Mitsu is getting close, but not quite my cup of tea, yet.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 5, 2021)

maple1 said:


> I might have missed stuff, but have yet to see an electric SUV. Which I think is the best selling class of vehicle these days (considering the wide variety of sizes/classes).  Seems manufacturers are missing targets in that? My personal vehicle preference is something like Pilot/Grand Cherokee class. Would be quite interested in an electric something like that. The PHEV Mitsu is getting close, but not quite my cup of tea, yet.


Ford already makes an electric SUV called the Mustang Mach E, or at least I think that is the name.


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## jebatty (Jun 5, 2021)

Isn't the Tesla Model Y also a fully electric, mid-size _SUV_? Also has available seating for up to seven, and dual motor AWD. Also likely that more and more BEV offerings will be SUV style models.


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## Rusty18 (Jun 5, 2021)

Limited range, high cost to repair, end of use disposal issues, lack of supporting infrastructure...wait are we talking about the transition to ev’s now or to ice’s 100 years ago 

I know my comment adds nothing intellectual to the conversation but really set back and think about it.  Ev’s have it easy! 90% of the car is the same as what is already being produced, we are just swapping out the fuel supply.


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Ford already makes an electric SUV called the Mustang Mach E, or at least I think that is the name.


The Tesla model X is an SUV as is the Mustang MachE. And more are coming. The Bolt EUV is taking orders now and the new Kia Nero is SUV ish, while their upcoming EV6 is moreso, though they are calling it a "CUV" to identify with the increasingly popular crossover utility vehicle class. 




__





						2022 Kia EV6 | All-Electric Crossover - Pricing & Features | Kia
					

Go the distance in the Kia EV6. With a 300 mile range, long battery life & spacious interior, this electric SUV is both fast & fast-charging! Visit for stats & incentives info, or to purchase yours today.




					www.kia.com


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## maple1 (Jun 5, 2021)

I guess those 2 aren't what I'd personally think of as SUVs. Maybe they technically are.


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## maple1 (Jun 5, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I did some basic napkin math the other day, if every car in Alberta (about 4 million of them) was an EV with efficiency of a Model Y, and everyone of those drove 50km everyday, and everyone of them charged at the same time over an 8hr period at night, that would place an additional demand on the Alberta power grid of 4000MW for those 8hrs. The current night time power consumption in Alberta is about 8000-9000MW and 9000-11000MW during the day time.
> 
> So with the power grid we already have we are most of the way to absorbing this additional energy demand. Sure extra transmission lines would need to be built along with new generation stations, but this isn't an insurmountable task by any means. For us the biggest issue would be residential power distribution on the utility side, almost every home here comes standard with a 100 amp 120/240 volt split phase service, but many utilities have not sized their end to handle all of these being pushed to the max at once, it is quite possible transformers and even feeder cables would need to be upgraded in many neighborhoods. Of course all this assuming the EV's are charged at home.



Also all assuming all 4 million cars drive 50 kms every day. I suspect a lot of cars spend many days of the week not moving at all. But that might be made up for by those who drive more than that each day.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 5, 2021)

Ah, I see you mean a more traditional SUV. I think the closest thing would be an Electric F150 with a top on the bed.


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## bholler (Jun 5, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Ah, I see you mean a more traditional SUV. I think the closest thing would be an Electric F150 with a top on the bed.



Right now you are correct but I guarantee more truck like SUVs are on their way


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 5, 2021)

We (work) were talking about a F150 (or similar e pickup) in a couple years to test how one would work in our fleet.    I am curious what happens to the range when a 5k lb trailer is hauled around.   Its all the recharge convenience.    Until it can be done anywhere the technology will be hamstrung.  I can't have my techs, who often drive 250 miles in a day run out of charge.

I'm real interested in the maintenance schedule of an electric vehicle.


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2021)

bholler said:


> Right now you are correct but I guarantee more truck like SUVs are on their way


Yes, GM is developing a platform based on their ultium battery that can be adapted to either truck or passenger car. The Hummer SUV will be one of the first recipients with a really big 200 kW battery pack.


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## EbS-P (Jun 5, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I am curious what happens to the range when a 5k lb trailer is hauled around.


I think we know the qualitative answer.  It’s going to scale just like your gas mileage but a bit better with regen breaking.  
Look at the Transit EV.  Range is like 130 miles.  That’s probably a data/profit driven number.      
Probably could make make an educated guess based in the mileage this Tesla 3 gets.


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## andym (Jun 5, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I can't have my techs, who often drive 250 miles in a day run out of charge.


At this point EVs are not going to be a good fit for your situation. As mentioned earlier they certainly work very well for many people, but they still arent for many others.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 5, 2021)

I realize that.   In a few years, this may change.   Its all about how many charging stations are in an area.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 6, 2021)

Ford has made more electric Mustangs than gas-powered ones this year, due to the global chip shortage
					

Suspended production at the Flat Rock, Michigan factory allowed the company's EV plant in Mexico to get ahead in May.




					www.yahoo.com


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I realize that.   In a few years, this may change.   Its all about how many charging stations are in an area.


And how quickly the battery pack can safely take a charge.


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## woodgeek (Jun 6, 2021)

The original article was OK, but fluffy, with a quote from futurist Naan, who I am a little skeptical about at the moment.

As for the grid... well, the grid has struggled with flat and falling electricity demand for a looong time, and low prices and regulation.  EVs will increase the amount of power that needs to be produced, and it is MUCH easier to build new projects in a growth environment than in a flat/declining one.  And as mentioned, charging at night can use existing production, reducing daily variations.  With internet linked 'demand' controls on the chargers, EVs can be used to stabilize higher renewable penetration grids, even without vehicle to grid stuff.


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## woodgeek (Jun 6, 2021)

My neighbor is ending the lease on his second LEAF (he had a Gen 1 then a Gen 2), and talked to me this morning about choices.  He always wanted a Tesla, but he is cheap enough to pinch a penny until Abe screams.  I told him to test drive the Bolt (which he and everyone else thinks is tiny, while in fact it had the biggest interior of any car I ever owned).  We shall see.

He is the master of shopping for the best deal.  He got his Gen 1 LEAF for <$200/mo lease.


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## woodgeek (Jun 6, 2021)

begreen said:


> And how quickly the battery pack can safely take a charge.



The issue here is cost.  To pay for the $$$ fast charging equipment, fast chargers will always need to charge a steep premium per kWh.  The current situation is like I have a gas pump in my garage that runs at $1/gallon, and the gas station on the highway pumps the same gas at $5/gallon.  And everyone wonders why EVs get charged at home!


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2021)

woodgeek said:


> The issue here is cost.  To pay for the $$$ fast charging equipment, fast chargers will always need to charge a steep premium per kWh.  The current situation is like I have a gas pump in my garage that runs at $1/gallon, and the gas station on the highway pumps the same gas at $5/gallon.  And everyone wonders why EVs get charged at home!


Similar to when toll highways charge more at their exclusive rest stops. A captive audience will pay more if they need fuel.


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Jun 11, 2021)

This looks really promising, and not just theoretical results in a lab.  Seems they are ready for manufacturing in smaller batteries but there seems to be no concern about scaling up to an EV. Graphene Aluminum batteries check off  a solution to most of the problems with lithium especially the range anxiety problem. If we can fully fast charge during a bathroom break at the rest stop with no degradation in battery capacity that would be huge. 









						Developer Of Aluminum-Ion Battery Claims It Charges 60 Times Faster Than Lithium-Ion, Offering EV Range Breakthrough
					

The graphene aluminum-ion battery cells from the Brisbane-based Graphene Manufacturing Group (GMG) are claimed to charge up to 60 times faster than the best lithium-ion cells and hold more energy.




					www.forbes.com


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## ABMax24 (Jun 11, 2021)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> This looks really promising, and not just theoretical results in a lab.  Seems they are ready for manufacturing in smaller batteries but there seems to be no concern about scaling up to an EV. Graphene Aluminum batteries check off  a solution to most of the problems with lithium especially the range anxiety problem. If we can fully fast charge during a bathroom break at the rest stop with no degradation in battery capacity that would be huge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd like to see what the charge connector would look like to be able to dump in 100kwh in 10 minutes. At 480 volt DC on a single circuit that would be 1250 amps.

Don't stand in a puddle of water I guess?


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## NoGoodAtScreenNames (Jun 11, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> I'd like to see what the charge connector would look like to be able to dump in 100kwh in 10 minutes. At 480 volt DC on a single circuit that would be 1250 amps.
> 
> Don't stand in a puddle of water I guess?



This is the new consumer grade at home charging station.


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2021)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> This looks really promising, and not just theoretical results in a lab.  Seems they are ready for manufacturing in smaller batteries but there seems to be no concern about scaling up to an EV. Graphene Aluminum batteries check off  a solution to most of the problems with lithium especially the range anxiety problem. If we can fully fast charge during a bathroom break at the rest stop with no degradation in battery capacity that would be huge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have been following this company's developments. Field trials of samples are happening now. They could be a major improvement for laptops, phones, etc. Cars probably won't see them until 2025 if successful. Then it will be a game-changer. Whether they outperform developing solid-state batteries is TBD. Things are going to get interesting in a few years.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2021)

Are high voltage lines more dangerous than countless bulk explosive storage containers across the country? Most houses have propane, oil, or natural gas hook ups, most with storage. Every gas station is just a holding tank for extremely dangerous liquid fuels, and just any person is allowed to pump it.


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2021)

The very high charging rate potentials may never be seen in real-world applications except perhaps at fleet and long-haul transit hubs.


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## EbS-P (Jun 11, 2021)

NoGoodAtScreenNames said:


> This is the new consumer grade at home charging station.
> 
> View attachment 279497


This is where the power wall or similar tech will come into play. How fast can you safely discharge? Probably faster than you can charge it?   Fast charging that is not directly grid tied is really the only way.  200 amp service is the limiting factor without storage.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> This is where the power wall or similar tech will come into play. How fast can you safely discharge? Probably faster than you can charge it?   Fast charging that is not directly grid tied is really the only way.  200 amp service is 200 amp service is the limiting factor without storage.



In a perfect world I would get a second meter from the power company with a 300+ amp 3 phase service for a workshop that would also charge our vehicles, but I know most residential situations would not support that. Although every garage in the country on a 3-400 amp 3 phase service panel would be welcomed by many wood workers.


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## begreen (Jun 11, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> This is where the power wall or similar tech will come into play. How fast can you safely discharge? Probably faster than you can charge it?   Fast charging that is not directly grid tied is really the only way.  200 amp service is the limiting factor without storage.


Not many homeowners need a full range charge in a short time. With a 300 mile range, they will not fully discharge the battery for their commute, nor need a full charge for the next day. The average overnight charge will suffice for most people. It is when traveling that the fast charge is more valuable.


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## EbS-P (Jun 11, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> In a perfect world I would get a second meter from the power company with a 300+ amp 3 phase service for a workshop that would also charge our vehicles, but I know most residential situations would not support that. Although every garage in the country on a 3-400 amp 3 phase service panel would be welcomed by many wood workers.


We have similar dreams.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 11, 2021)

EbS-P said:


> We have similar dreams.


All the best stuff calls for three phase power. Perhaps the EV revolution will finally be the push to get it into all houses like they do everywhere else in the world.


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## bholler (Jun 11, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> All the best stuff calls for three phase power. Perhaps the EV revolution will finally be the push to get it into all houses like they do everywhere else in the world.



It better not.  If it did I could no longer buy 3 phase equipment dirt cheap. Lol


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## semipro (Jun 11, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> All the best stuff calls for three phase power. Perhaps the EV revolution will finally be the push to get it into all houses like they do everywhere else in the world.


As I understand it, the primary benefit of 3 phase power is that motors don't require starter circuits. What's the advantage of 3-phase power for EV charging other than an additional conductor?


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 11, 2021)

More amps, smaller wires?


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## ABMax24 (Jun 11, 2021)

Three times as much power for only 1.5 times as many conductors.

The big thing is phase balancing, 3 phase loads are usually balanced and typically pull power evenly from all 3 phases. Large single phase loads need to be balanced across all 3 phases.


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## semipro (Jun 12, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> Three times as much power for only 1.5 times as many conductors.
> 
> The big thing is phase balancing, 3 phase loads are usually balanced and typically pull power evenly from all 3 phases. Large single phase loads need to be balanced across all 3 phases.


Ok, interesting.  I read up a bit here and it looks like somehow the net effect of using 3 phase is that each conductor can effectively carry more current because of the simultaneous opposing direction of flow in the conductor from the other phases.   I don't fully understand but it does explain how adding 50% more conductors can result in even greater overall power transfer.  I love learning new stuff. 

When traveling in rural areas I've always noticed many farms served by 3-phase and wondered why.  I suspected cow milking equipment.  Anyone know why else?


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 12, 2021)

They want to proclaim, "Not Amish!"


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## SpaceBus (Jun 12, 2021)

semipro said:


> Ok, interesting.  I read up a bit here and it looks like somehow the net effect of using 3 phase is that each conductor can effectively carry more current because of the simultaneous opposing direction of flow in the conductor from the other phases.   I don't fully understand but it does explain how adding 50% more conductors can result in even greater overall power transfer.  I love learning new stuff.
> 
> When traveling in rural areas I've always noticed many farms served by 3-phase and wondered why.  I suspected cow milking equipment.  Anyone know why else?


They probably have electrical machinery that calls for 3-phase power, probably beyond milking equipment. When I worked for a company that built media blasting cabinets many of the blower and conveyor motors were 3-p. The professional grade wood working machinery is also usually 3-p, which is what Bholler was getting at in an earlier post. Once you get above homeowner grade tools and equipment it is usually 3-p.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 12, 2021)

EatenByLimestone said:


> They want to proclaim, "Not Amish!"


Amish use 3-p electrical stuff, but they also use generators and refuse to be grid connected.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 12, 2021)

Right.   No wires to the house/barn


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## ABMax24 (Jun 12, 2021)

semipro said:


> Ok, interesting.  I read up a bit here and it looks like somehow the net effect of using 3 phase is that each conductor can effectively carry more current because of the simultaneous opposing direction of flow in the conductor from the other phases.   I don't fully understand but it does explain how adding 50% more conductors can result in even greater overall power transfer.  I love learning new stuff.
> 
> When traveling in rural areas I've always noticed many farms served by 3-phase and wondered why.  I suspected cow milking equipment.  Anyone know why else?



There's also some other advantages when dealing with the rectification of the AC power to DC, which is of particular importance to EV's. Single phase AC has a point 120 times per second where the voltage is zero and so is the useable power output, this requires capacitors to store energy to produce a smooth DC output. 3 phase by nature doesn't have this problem, if you look at the chart below the sum of the power output at any time is always the same, this produces a smooth DC output. 

3 phase when wired in the delta configuration also doesn't require a ground as the 3 phases cancel each other perfectly. Our welders at work operate this way, 3 power wires and a safety earth ground, they also produce an extremely smooth DC output.







To answer your question, 3 phase is often supplied to farms for a couple reasons. Farms often pull significantly more power than a standard house, well pumps, septic, grain dryers, milking equipment, pumps, etc. 3 phases systems simply supply more energy to power all these loads. The other is many loads require 3 phase power to operate, particularly motors.

For small lower output electric motors single phase works fine, although it does require a start winding in the motor and a starting circuit to get the motor spinning. (think bicycle with one pedal up and the other down, how do get moving if you can only push down on the pedals?). The starter circuit acts 90 degrees to this to get the rotor moving and inertia takes care of the rest. 3 phase motors don't have this problem, they are self starting. The other is vibration, as talked about before single phase goes to zero power 120 times per second, which requires inertia in the motor and whatever it's turning to absorb the rotational vibration. 3 phase doesn't have this issue either, its a smooth output, (think single cylinder engine vs 3 or 4 cylinder).


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## bholler (Jun 12, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Amish use 3-p electrical stuff, but they also use generators and refuse to be grid connected.


We have lots of Amish here connected to the grid.  Some just for barns others for the house as well.


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## begreen (Jun 12, 2021)

Sounds like I could get into the charging business. We have delta 3-phase running right by our house. It feeds the water system down the street.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 12, 2021)

bholler said:


> We have lots of Amish here connected to the grid.  Some just for barns others for the house as well.


Times are changing I suppose. I have only met Amish that have hook ups for their businesses.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 12, 2021)

ABMax24 said:


> There's also some other advantages when dealing with the rectification of the AC power to DC, which is of particular importance to EV's. Single phase AC has a point 120 times per second where the voltage is zero and so is the useable power output, this requires capacitors to store energy to produce a smooth DC output. 3 phase by nature doesn't have this problem, if you look at the chart below the sum of the power output at any time is always the same, this produces a smooth DC output.
> 
> 3 phase when wired in the delta configuration also doesn't require a ground as the 3 phases cancel each other perfectly. Our welders at work operate this way, 3 power wires and a safety earth ground, they also produce an extremely smooth DC output.
> 
> ...


More like single cylinder compared to inline six or v12. Inline sixes are inherently balanced with no dead spots in the crank rotation and the piston movement, much like three phase power, cancels out the vibration of the opposed piston. It's a shame they aren't in more cars.


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## bholler (Jun 12, 2021)

SpaceBus said:


> Times are changing I suppose. I have only met Amish that have hook ups for their businesses.


It all depends upon the rules of their specific church


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## gggvan (Jun 13, 2021)

I suspect in the future, there will be wireless trickle/full charging emitted from roads/smart lights/signals along sides of streets. Sort of like the wireless phone chargers you set your phone on/near. Also, in the chinese ev, can't remember the name now,  you only rent the battery, they have drive in stations that physically swap out the battery for a fully charged one in a few minutes.


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## semipro (Jun 13, 2021)

gggvan said:


> I suspect in the future, there will be wireless trickle/full charging emitted from roads/smart lights/signals along sides of streets. Sort of like the wireless phone chargers you set your phone on/near. Also, in the chinese ev, can't remember the name now,  you only rent the battery, they have drive in stations that physically swap out the battery for a fully charged one in a few minutes.


Nio is the Chinese swappable system I believe you're referring to.  Better Place tried it more than 10 years ago but the world wasn't ready for it then.  Getting manufacturers to cooperate on a standard is tough.  (Think about getting in a rental car and trying to find the windshield wiper switch at night).
Wireless charging is tricky for a variety of reasons.   I agree it's the future but it's out there a bit.
I keep thinking that maybe using light, as in lasers, might be a better way to transfer energy to moving vehicles.  That's obviously out there too though.
For now, nothing comes close to the connection of electrical conductors.  I keep thinking back to the slot cars I had as a kid and maybe conductive tires, etc.


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## SpaceBus (Jun 13, 2021)

The Japanese big three in bikes have agreed on a standardized swappable battery for motorcycles, anything is possible.


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## begreen (Jun 13, 2021)

The new GM Ultium battery pack looks like it is better designed for swap-outs and upgradeability.


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