# Gasification Boiler in basement or Outdoors



## heat4steve (Jul 15, 2009)

I will buy a gasification boiler in the next few weeks - leaning towards eko or econoburn.  However, I am concerned with having it in the house and how to get a 1500-2000 lb boiler into my basement.  This must be a common issue - placement in basement.  Do I diassemble or get a dozen guys?  My alternative is to palce a unit in an uninsulated buidling 40 ft from my house. Any recommendations appreciated.


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## kevindauch (Jul 15, 2009)

I put mine in the basement.  In the winter I don't want to go out to get a fire going.  Also there are no worries of it freezing when I travel on business and all heat loss from the boiler goes right into the house. 
I used a mini excavator to drop it in through the bilco doors. After that I rolled it on 1 1/4 metal pipe that I used for some of the plumbing.  Putting it into the basement was the easy part, about an hour to get it into place.  The plumbing on the other hand took a while.


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## altheating (Jul 15, 2009)

We deliver the Econoburn's with a boom lift truck. That makes it real easy if we can get to a bilco door. We have also had many customers lay the boiler on its back with two 4 x 8" beams, make a wooden frame, get a few friends and slide it down the stairs. The boom truck is the easiest, some people don't have enough friends! I know a few have been put in with the aid of a rigging company.


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## heat4steve (Jul 15, 2009)

Thanks for the ideas - gives me confidence I can put it in the basement.  The  $1500 dollar goverment rebate swung me to the gasification unit or else I planned on a standard unit such as the thermo-control.  I assume this applies to all units of this type or is there a goverment approved list?


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## maplewood (Jul 16, 2009)

I've just one step ahead of you.  I bought an Econoburn 150, and got it delivered to my garage.  Now it's my job to get it into my basement.  All 1550 lbs of it!
I never considered an outdoor boiler.  I don't want to go outside to get warm.  I built my house with a 20' x 8' wood storage room in the basemet - I can put 9 cord in it.
When I built it, I had a crane lower the boiler into the basement before I built the main floor.  That was easy.  Now I've got to get the boiler up to my front porch, then use come-alongs, straps, plywood, 2x10's and 1" rods for rollers to get this beast into my main floor and then down the basement steps, re-inforcing the floors and steps the whole way.
But I can promise you this - I'll be very satisfied when I stoke the fires in the basement.
Now, if I had a nice out building, like a shop or garage, and could run some underground pipe to the house, and had a 1000 gallons of water storage, I could be talked into not installing my gasser in my basement!    But that's not the case....
Good luck with your decision.
Happy burning!


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## Gooserider (Jul 16, 2009)

Not a total solution by any means, but you can do some significant load lightening - get out the manual and look at how to remove the doors, refractories, blower motors, and any other sorts of hardware that you can remove w/o destructive methods...  Remember that every pound you can get off the main unit is one that you don't have to rig up the way to handle...

Gooserider


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## deerefanatic (Jul 16, 2009)

Very true Gooserider.......... But, some houses (like ours for instance) there is no way to get the boiler into.... Our steps would have collapsed for sure..... Plus, nothing to attach winches too...... Not a pretty picture.

I for one am going to like my outdoor EKO....


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## muncybob (Jul 16, 2009)

We are facing a similar situation. While I do have Bilco type doors to lower the boiler through I have very little clearance from the bottom step to the basement doorway. I am probably looking at breaking up at least 1 if not 2 of the 3 concrete steps we have inside the bulkhead. Since I am a "have to see it" type of person I plan to use 2X4's to make a rough frame of the boilers on my short list to see exactly how tight the fit will be into the basement. I am hoping to use a backhoe or something similar to lower the new boiler down into the bulkhead onto steel rollers although I would prefer to use a come along to slide it down the steps on some ramps to save $$ on renting/borrowing any type of equipment.


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## stee6043 (Jul 16, 2009)

With a little creativity these things can be moved without heavy equipment - for sure.  I moved my EKO, picked up 500 gallon propane tanks and got everything situated in my basement with not much more than two dolly's, two ratcheting tie downs and one Cub Cadet.....


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## Medman (Jul 16, 2009)

Just a thought, but have you considered a moving company that has experience with pianos?

When some relatives moved years ago it took eight or nine of us to move the upright piano (cast iron inside, about 1000 lbs) into their house, which had stairs up to the main floor.  It took all day, lots of rigging, lots of swearing, and we still damaged two walls.
When they moved out, the moving company brought three guys and their gear.  Took them about an hour and a half, with no damage to house or piano.  It just takes know-how and the right gear.  Its worth giving them a call.


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## Gooserider (Jul 16, 2009)

deerefanatic said:
			
		

> Very true Gooserider.......... But, some houses (like ours for instance) there is no way to get the boiler into.... Our steps would have collapsed for sure..... Plus, nothing to attach winches too...... Not a pretty picture.
> 
> I for one am going to like my outdoor EKO....



What I have used on occasion for a winch anchor that works reasonably well, is to put a 2x4 (or heavier) accross the door opening, and attaching the comealong to the center with a cargo strap...  Obviously you need to worry about the horizontal strength of the wall; I would keep the 2x? as close to the top of bottom of the door opening as practical to minimize the side loading on the wall...  I've used this approach a couple of times when moving stoves around w/ no problems.  Haven't tried it on something as heavy as a boiler, but don't see why it wouldn't work as long as you pay attention to the loading issues...

Gooserider


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## pybyr (Jul 16, 2009)

I lowered my Econoburn 150 down my bilco door using a large tractor with bucket loader borrowed from a friend- then used a pallet jack to get the EBW-150 to its final spot within the basement.  Some of it was a close squeeze- but not a ding or a dent to either house or boiler in the process.


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## Bad Wolf (Jul 16, 2009)

It can be done.  I man handled my 1500 lb TARM into the basement all by my self. It just takes a lot of patience. I was concerned about the clearance to the top of the door frame once I started to transition from the steps to the basement floor but it worked out with an inch to spare.  Try making a cardboard cut out the size of the length and height and test it out. 
I pulled it off the trailer with a come a long and had the winch from the truck to keep it from sliding too far. It took a lot of running back and forth, if you have someone to run the controls it helps.


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## pybyr (Jul 16, 2009)

Having multiple people on hand is definitely a good idea- I ran the tractor and bucket while my Dad eyeballed things to make sure I didn't overshoot and hit my clapboards, while Jim Crawford (my Econoburn dealer- and a great guy) helped make sure it didn't swing or spin too much as it was lowered into the hatch opening.


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## willworkforwood (Jul 16, 2009)

Welcome to Hearth, heat4steve - you've arrived at the right place. Just about everything I know about gassers came from this site, and the experts here will help you with any boiler question or problem you have. I agree with all of the folks about the basement location. I run my boiler without storage, and burn smaller fires during the day. 
With the boiler and wood all right downstairs, feeding multiple times per day is no problem at all - my always-warm wife feeds while I'm at work ;-) . I would install it there, unless physically impossible. I was into mid November last year bringing my EBW150 in, and was very fortunate that my Niece's husband Danny is an expert in handling heavy equipment (one of the things he does is install commercial kitchens). He was chomping at the bit to put this notch in his belt, and drove 4 hours from one of his jobs to do it. We dropped it down a smallish bulkhead with help from a farmer and his loader (using a pallet attachment). Danny used his know-how and some comealongs - not a mark or dent anywhere. I did need to pull out the basement entry door - the extra few inches made a big difference. There are many ways to get this job done, some of the others are in the prior posts.
If you decide not to tackle it yourself, in addition to piano/safe movers, also check with anyone who deals with large business equipment.  Good luck and happy gassing!


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## heat4steve (Jul 17, 2009)

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the help.  Seems realistic to achieve - moving into the basement.  Next step is deciding which boiler is the best value.  I will try to postpictures of the boiler move when its done.

Regards to all,


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## feelingasi (Jul 18, 2009)

when you have it shipped there is often a residential delivery charge involved with most trucking companies. what i did, was took a trailer to the snowmobile dealership up the road, had the boiler shipped there. they offloaded it onto my trailer. i strapped it down, dragged it home, backed the trailer up, cranked the tounge jack all the way up raising the front of the trailer, blocked the rear of the trailer with jack stands, lowered the ramps  and rolled it off with a pallet jack. i did have an elec winch hooked up to the front of the trailer just incase. sounds like alot but not to bad all in all. saved $150 on shipping by having in shipped to a business. not including the lift gate i would have needed for a home delivery. not to mention a lost day of wages sitting at home waiting. I bought my unit direct from the factory so shipping was my responsibility. no dealer to bring it to the house for me


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## SolarAndWood (Jul 18, 2009)

I pick up palletized stuff at the truck terminal in town.  Usually cheaper and you can unload it wherever is most convenient on your property.


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## USA-1 (Aug 18, 2009)

Hi,
What's the advantage of paying for a foreign made EKO or other foreign gassifier, and then paying a second time to make an outside enclosure for it, when you can buy a pre-made US or Canadian made EClassic-1400 or Wood Doctor HE-8000 that have lower emissions, lower total price , and are made in North American, to help our economy?
Is this site supported by European stove reps? It looks to me like these new outdoor boilers are as good or better...and cheaper, and the best part is they support local jobs. I was just looking at Vermont's fact sheet and these North American stoves have lower emissions than these indoor Polish stoves that are touted here.
What am I missing?


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## stee6043 (Aug 18, 2009)

USA-1 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> What's the advantage of paying for a foreign made EKO or other foreign gassifier, and then paying a second time to make an outside enclosure for it, when you can buy a pre-made US or Canadian made EClassic-1400 or Wood Doctor HE-8000 that have lower emissions, lower total price , and are made in North American, to help our economy?
> Is this site supported by European stove reps? It looks to me like these new outdoor boilers are as good or better...and cheaper, and the best part is they support local jobs. I was just looking at Vermont's fact sheet and these North American stoves have lower emissions than these indoor Polish stoves that are touted here.
> What am I missing?



Spend an hour and do some research....then repost.  Most of the regulars on this site are as hard core American, love this country, support anyone other than the oil company type people you will find.  You're currently misinformed, in my humble opinion.  If you gather 1,000 posts on this site and still think the North American stoves are currently up to snuff with the rest of the world...I will change my opinion about your post.


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## Piker (Aug 18, 2009)

Back to the indoor/outdoor debate for a gasser... 

Personally, I think the best place for your wood boiler is inside the home for two reasons.  1) No transmission/standby losses.  Anything that comes off of the boiler and piping on an indoor install goes right into the house as opposed to being lost in the breeze.  Transmission losses on a GOOD outdoor installation are negligible however, but the expense will generally be greater.  2) Who would ever want to get up early on a saturday morning and walk out through 24" of snow and -10 wind chill to load the boiler when you can stay in your pj's and head for the basement and be done filling the boiler in less than a minute?

Moving the boilers into basements has become almost second nature to me now.  We have a pretty slick pallet design where we remove the doors and blower plate, notch 2 4x6's about 3/4" deep over the door flanges, and then build a pallet on the face of the boiler.  We then lay the boiler down on it's face and slide it down some 4x6 ramps into the basement.   We have one for every size boiler up to an ebw200 and they work slick as can be.  

cheers


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## USA-1 (Aug 18, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> USA-1 said:
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## Gooserider (Aug 18, 2009)

USA-1 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> What's the advantage of paying for a foreign made EKO or other foreign gassifier, and then paying a second time to make an outside enclosure for it, when you can buy a pre-made US or Canadian made EClassic-1400 or Wood Doctor HE-8000 that have lower emissions, lower total price , and are made in North American, to help our economy?
> Is this site supported by European stove reps? It looks to me like these new outdoor boilers are as good or better...and cheaper, and the best part is they support local jobs. I was just looking at Vermont's fact sheet and these North American stoves have lower emissions than these indoor Polish stoves that are touted here.
> What am I missing?



This reads rather much like a trolling post to me, especially for someone on his first couple of posts...  I would suggest you do some serious reading through some of the past threads, and you will see that we have had posters coming here as owners of some of the OWB's with serious problems...  The E-Classic appears to have serious design flaws where they are making their secondary combustion chamber out of steel, which doesn't hold up under gasification temps...  Both designs are very new, and appear to be using their customers as involuntary development testers...  

OTOH, The Euroboilers, or the US made Econoburn and Wood Gun (or the Garn) units have been in production a lot longer, and gotten most of the bugs worked out - I don't see the threads complaining about problems with them having major leaks and other failures after only a short period of service the way we do with the OWB's.

As others have pointed out, I want my boiler indoors, just like my plumbing - I don't want to go out in the cold to shove logs in a boiler any more than I want to go out to dump a different sort of logs in that other sort of outhouse...   :coolsmirk: 

In addtion, most of the folks that are putting their boilers outdoors are putting up structures that are bigger than just the OWB outhouse size building - often they are heating a barn or shop that way, or combine the boiler building with their wood storage so they have a more efficient setup...  In short, there are lots of reasons to prefer the "naked" gassifier boiler designs, quite aside from the fact that contrary to popular propoganda, there really isn't a negative impact to buying non-US made...

I would second the other suggestion that you do a bit more reading before doing a lot more posting.  Further I'd suggest trying to not come across like you are trying to pick a fight, or start a flame war - otherwise it is possible that some of us moderators can use our extra "magic buttons" to make you disappear...

Gooserider


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 18, 2009)

You're going to have to try a little harder, USA-1, not to look like a shill or sales rep for one of the new gasifying OWBs. Because your current approach isn't getting you very far.

I'm all for gasifying OWBs--domestic- or foreign-made. I think it's the way to go for a lot of people if the bugs can be worked out. But I'm not laying out that much cash for what's basically an untested prototype. We have a number of members with gasifying OWBs, and if you do a search, you see that there have been some problems. If the mfg. stands by the product, fixes the problems under the warranty and learns something in the process, then everybody wins, IMO. But many of the OWB companies currently producing their versions of gasifiers have proven themselves in the past to be somewhat lacking in the after-the-sale support dept. (you can search that, too). Hence the skepticism for these "just as good but better 'cause they're made here" gasifying OWBs. 

It's not like there aren't domestically-manufactured indoor gasifier options, so your point boils down to: an OWB is better. I guess that's a debatable point.


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## USA-1 (Aug 18, 2009)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> You're going to have to try a little harder, USA-1, not to look like a shill or sales rep for one of the new gasifying OWBs. Because your current approach isn't getting you very far.
> 
> I'm all for gasifying OWBs--domestic- or foreign-made. I think it's the way to go for a lot of people if the bugs can be worked out. But I'm not laying out that much cash for what's basically an untested prototype. We have a number of members with gasifying OWBs, and if you do a search, you see that there have been some problems. If the mfg. stands by the product, fixes the problems under the warranty and learns something in the process, then everybody wins, IMO. But many of the OWB companies currently producing their versions of gasifiers have proven themselves in the past to be somewhat lacking in the after-the-sale support dept. (you can search that, too). Hence the skepticism for these "just as good but better 'cause they're made here" gasifying OWBs.
> 
> It's not like there aren't domestically-manufactured indoor gasifier options, so your point boils down to: an OWB is better. I guess that's a debatable point.




"HS Tarm Wood and Combination boilers, made in Denmark since the turn of the century, were first imported into the USA in 1977 by Tekton Corporation of Conway, MA. Tekton was starter by Walter Goodridge, who also was the first US importer of Lange Stoves.

HS Tarm became a large national brand in 1979 after being featured on the cover of Popular Mechanics Magazine. The country was in the midst of the second oil shock (1978-1980), and sales quicky became brisk with thousands of boilers being sold each year. In 1982 the company was sold to Alan Koenig with the base of operations remaining in Conway.

Sales declined along with the price of oil, and by 1988 the company was barely surviving. Alan Koening placed the company up for sale and it was purchased by Craig Issod, who much later would start this web site Hearth.com Background."

Eric, Thanks for your reply. No I'm not a shill or whatever, just a guy debating what kind of boiler to buy, and I was puzzled by the slant of this forum. Everyone I know locally who has OWBs loves them, including those who used woodstoves for years. So I spent days reading any posts on this site related to this because I'm interested. The posts are all pretty much ant-owb on this site, so that's the reason for my sarcasm.
But I see my instincts were correct from what I found and posted above. This explains it all. -GooseRider- feel free to hit your 'magic button' to make my posts dissapear, if you feel my post is a threat. At this point I'm still considering all my options and possibly may end up buying a Tarm- so please don't jump to conclusions.


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## Eric Johnson (Aug 19, 2009)

I think the "anti-OWB" sentiment on this website is rooted in the fact that they burn a lot more wood and produce a lot of smoke, which most of us see as a public relations nightmare for those of who who like to burn clean. That said, I do a fair amount of driving around the Northeast, and some of the worst smoke problems I see originate in chimneys attached to houses. So there may be a natural bias against the woodburner you can see, vs. the one you can't.

But I want to reiterate my point about untested technologies, which is what most gasifying OWBs represent today. It's not that they don't work as advertised "out of the box," but that you may well encounter unanticipated problems a year or two into their use. The Blue Forge is a good example. Apparently, the refractory began to disintegrate after about a season of use, and there was no good/cheap way to fix the problem. And that was not a cheap boiler. I foresee similar problems with some of the "miracle" OWB gasifiers being marketed today. If you analyze their sales approach, most don't mention that you need very dry wood for them to work properly. That's something most indoor, Euro-style gasifiers are careful to mention in their sales literature. I think it's also telling that the major mfgrs. of indoor gasifers don't have viable OWB options. And it's not for lack of trying, considering the potential market.

So I'm urging caution and resisting what most of us perceived as your attempt to frame the discussion as nationalistic/class debate over the type of wood burner that most people on this forum tend to prefer. It's not about either one, as I've tried to explain in the two preceding paragraphs.

Anyway, USA-1, I hope you'll keep an open mind and do some research on this site before making a purchasing decision. I think most of the people here are telling it the way they see it. That's worth taking into consideration.

And, a belated welcome to the Boiler Room. Everyone is welcome here.


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## Fred61 (Aug 19, 2009)

USA-1 said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
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I think you should buy an OWB so you can love it like all your friends do!


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## Gooserider (Aug 19, 2009)

USA-1 said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
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I would point out that far as I know, Craig who runs this site, no longer has any interest in Tarm, or any other boiler or stove company for that matter...  While he has on occasion said nice things about some products, I have never seen any sign of favoritism towards any particular brands here.  If anything he goes to great lengths to stay brand neutral, including not allowing heavy duty selling efforts by any of our many members that are in the industry one way or the other...  It is one of our guidelines as moderators that we try to discourage overly hard pushing of any single solution to every problem - or otherwise "pimping" for a single outfit...  This is a bit of a grey area, and we aren't perfect at it, but we try...  

All I can say is that we have a great many happy owners of gasification boilers, including ones that have put them in out building type installations, and a fair number of current and former OWB owners that are NOT happy...  (including several that used to own OWB's and switched to gassers, and have been happy about burning less wood and making less smoke)  I haven't done a lot of price shopping, but it appears to me that there is not a huge difference in the cost for an OWB in it's little shed and a gasser and a custom built not over fancy shed to put it in - this is very much of a difficult thing to compare, since a lot of people build sheds that cover a lot more than just the boiler...  

Another issue that I see is that many OWB's are really huge capacity - 500KBTU/hr or so which is often far larger than what is actually needed by most applications, but then they hook up with tubing that isn't adequate to transfer the heat output to the actual target building w/o using grossly oversized power hungry pumps - some of this is not the fault of the OWB itself, but it does seem to show a lack of good dealer training on the part of the OWB makers...  

I personally suspect that at least some of the people who claim to be happy with their OWB's either don't have any basis for comparison to see what the alternatives are capable of, so they don't know that they SHOULD be unhappy.  Others may not be happy, but aren't wiling to admit that they spent their money less than wisely...

Gooserider


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## JMann (Aug 20, 2009)

Back to the original question...

After pouring over posts (last year), I decided to install mine in a our workshop (former detached 2 car garage).  It did cost more but I'm happy with the decision for these reasons:

1. Wood dust, critters, and dirt are kept out of the house.
2. The learning curve has been tough for the first year resulting in a few instances where smoke filled the workshop not the house
3. Nice warm workshop

I would do it again if I had a second chance.  The Seton is running well (can't compare it to anything else since it's my first wood furnace).  I like it for the simple design and that there are not a lot of parts or electronics.  Their manufacturing company (Bethel Engineering) has been great as well.


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