# Crown Royal Gasifier vs Multi-Pass



## Goshenboy123 (Mar 26, 2020)

Hello all, 

I have been researching brands of outdoor boilers and settled on Crown Royal. Their quality, as well as the design, looks very robust and well built. Everything looks very heavy duty from all the brochures and videos on youtube. 

My question is, what is everyone's opinion on whether to go with a gasifier or the multi-pass. I understand that the gasifier will be more efficient, but realistically by how much? Is the efficiency worth the extra price? 

I am looking forward to hearing the pros and cons of each and seeing everyone's set up. 

This is my first post here on the Hearth, excited to hear what everyone says. Thanks for the help!


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## andym (Mar 26, 2020)

Goshenboy123 said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have been researching brands of outdoor boilers and settled on Crown Royal. Their quality, as well as the design, looks very robust and well built. Everything looks very heavy duty from all the brochures and videos on youtube.
> 
> ...


If it was me I would go with the gasifier I think. I looked at the Heatmaster G series, CB ClassicEdge, and crown royal. Each brand has its own advantages, but all three are very good. Personally I am going the cheaper route of the indoor wood furnace, although I had first planned on an outdoor boiler.

Some things that may help your decision: 
Where are you getting your wood? Is there any $$ advantage to using less? (I enjoy cutting and get all I want free, but that is not everyone's situation).

The gasifiers MUST HAVE dry wood. Like 20% or less. The multi-pass will be a little more forgiving here. 

The multi-pass can also burn coal I think. 

How much price difference are we lookin at? 2k?


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## andym (Mar 26, 2020)

On the efficiency question: the EPA rates all the outdoor gasifiers around 67-73% efficiency (if I remember right). I'm assuming that is recovered heat, not delivered. In other words: you may also need to factor in loss from the unit itself as well as underground. I would estimate the multipass around 50-60? I'm no expert tho. Curious what others may say. 

Don't underestimate the significance of even 10% efficiency difference. That means every 10 years you'll save an entire seasons firewood. 20% = every 5 years. After 5 years feeding a less efficient unit I would be asking myself: what exactly did I do with the 2,000 I saved anyway?


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## E Yoder (Mar 27, 2020)

Keep in mind the multipass units are technically coal only units in the US if you're concerned about the EPA regs. 
In my experience with Heatmaster the gasser will burn at least a third less wood. I've burned up to 30% moisture wood and it performs well, above that it's tough to get a good reburn. Less than 20% is definitely ideal. 
The May 15 deadline is coming up soon. All 2015 rated models have to be sold by then. Maybe the dealer would be willing to make a deal?


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## Goshenboy123 (Mar 27, 2020)

First off, thank you for your replies!

The efficiency of the gasifier sounds nice, and is defiantly crazy to hear how much wood one could save. I cut and split my own wood from my property, so realistically there would be no money savings but definitely nice to save wood. 

After everything I've heard so far, it sounds like the gasifier is the way to go.  How is the maintenance difference for the two?


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## hobbyheater (Mar 27, 2020)

We have been heating our home domestic hot water with wood since the early 80s.

This boiler my kids called the pig as it burned  22 cords (4x4x8) in one year!






Next we bought a Tasso like the one pictured below.  It was a triple pass downdrafter.  It burned 16 cords a year and 10 cords a year when connected to 1,290 gallons of storage.





We bought the Jetstream  in 1984 and connected it to storage.  It averaged 4 cords a year over a 36 year period!  When I was younger, I thought nothing of going out,  bucking and splitting 5 cords of wood in one afternoon to load our 5 ton flatdeck.   Now that I'm in my 70s  with good saw and a good splitter, I really apreciate only having to collect 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 cords a year.  Think to the future when you buy your boiler and the amount of wood it's going to burn!






The Woodsplitter makes it fun but I am glad it is only 4 cords a year.


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## andym (Mar 27, 2020)

[QUOTE="Goshenboy123, post: 
  How is the maintenance difference for the two?
[/QUOTE]
I don't have first hand experience, but I know the gasifiers take just a bit more effort to operate. You should be able to look up some videos on YouTube about the end of season maintenance.


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## coolidge (Mar 27, 2020)

Gassers have a little learning curve to them. Figure out how to load for 12 hours. They don’t need to be stuffed full.


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## Medic21 (Mar 27, 2020)

I have a 7300MP and live it.  This was my first season with a boiler.  I can attest to the quality of the unit.  

I actually went with it for the coal option.  It is a beast when burning coal but, it needs to have a fairly large load on it to stay burning.  

It was said up higher that you have to have wood under 20% to burn a gasser. This is not true but, you loose a lot of efficiency and have too split small. Not ideal but, I know people that have burned up to 40% moisture without any problems.

So, differences between the two. Multi pass is less work processing wood. Cut to 30” and split to 8-10 inch splits. Will burn the green tree you cut down today in a pinch. Very easy learning curve and very little in season maintenance.

Gasser will have you cutting 20” or less and 6” splits at a max size to run right. They have a very specific loading, cant just throw in wood. Can be more difficult to light. Despite all that it is very clean, burns a lot less wood. I went through 9-10 cords with a very mild winter.

very important, have at least three years of wood cut, split, and stacked.  My biggest mistake was not having enough seasoned wood this year from the start.  I never ran out but I’m burning 1 year seasoned oak right now.  Find a good dealer.  Ask questions about service and repair.  There are too many dealers that just want to sell andhave know knowledge or ability to service the units.  If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 27, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> Not ideal but, I know people that have burned up to 40% moisture without any problems.


Man, that's rough...if you throw in 100 lbs. of wood, at 40% MC, that's almost *5 gallons* of water included! 
Bet that "burns" nice!
Interesting "dry" test here...





						Dry firewood - How to Check Whether Your Firewood Is Dry
					

Simple methods will enable you to check whether your firewood is dry. For the sake of the environment you should always use dry firewood.




					www.tips.adurofire.com


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## E Yoder (Mar 28, 2020)

I absolutely agree on finding a good dealer who will be honest with you.


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## Medic21 (Mar 28, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> Man, that's rough...if you throw in 100 lbs. of wood, at 40% MC, that's almost *5 gallons* of water included!
> Bet that "burns" nice!
> Interesting "dry" test here...
> 
> ...


From what I’ve seen on Facebook and other places.  When done it makes a hell of a mess of the heat exchanger.  Didn’t say I’d recommend it.


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## hedge wood (Mar 28, 2020)

I have been heating with wood since the mid 80's and sold firewood for about 20 of the 35 years that I have burned wood. Twenty five years with stoves and the last 10 with a Garn boiler. I can't speak on the quality of the crown royal boilers.  I have never ran a none gasifier  boiler but I do believe you will get the most BTU's out of your wood with one.  My Garn will burn fairly wet wood but the energy it takes to get it to burn is not good. The main key to burning wood for heat is to have good solid dry wood. That will  keep the amount of wood you burn in check.


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## Goshenboy123 (Mar 28, 2020)

Definitely leaning towards the gasifier unit. 

Can someone explain the 2020 EPA regulation to me? I just looked on their website for the OWB that complies with this and there are very few. With this regulation, does it mean that I would not be able to pick up a wood boiler if it doesn't meet these specs? 

I understand that the MP unit is considered a coal unit and exempt from the EPA emissions, but if I wanted a  Gassifier which is considered a wood unit, would I not be able to purchase it if it doesn't meet the 2020 regs?


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## brenndatomu (Mar 28, 2020)

Not after May 15


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## Medic21 (Mar 28, 2020)

Woodstove Database | Burnwise | US EPA
		


The Crown Royal E series and Heatmaster G series both make the 2020 list. Looks like Central Boiler finally made the list.

The Multi Pass is coal or wood. The difference is commercial applications, over 2500 sq ft, are exempt also. Mine is hooked to my shop as commercial use and incidentally may be hooked to the house too. The other side is Indiana actually has wording to ban coal burning as a whole on hydronic heaters so you have to look hard at the local and state laws. A lot of areas have enacted stricter laws. Some require a permit to install and operate. Make sure you research all that.

How many square feet are you heating?  Domestic hot water?


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## Goshenboy123 (Mar 29, 2020)

I am heating 2300sq ft. The home is insulated fairly well, but nothing crazy. Winter temps average 20*F, with the max low of around -10* F. I plan on heating domestic hot water. Was doing some research, and was looking between the 7200e and 7300e, not sure which.


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## salecker (Mar 29, 2020)

You need to pair a gasifier with storage to achieve the best possible recovery of BTU's with the least amount of maintenance.
If you aren't running a boiler wide open you are losing efficiency,and you will be cleaning it more to archive and maintain it's efficiency.


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## Medic21 (Mar 29, 2020)

salecker said:


> You need to pair a gasifier with storage to achieve the best possible recovery of BTU's with the least amount of maintenance.
> If you aren't running a boiler wide open you are losing efficiency,and you will be cleaning it more to archive and maintain it's efficiency.


These do not use storage like your Garns and the such.  They run wide open or off.  These are completely different.


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## Medic21 (Mar 29, 2020)

Goshenboy123 said:


> I am heating 2300sq ft. The home is insulated fairly well, but nothing crazy. Winter temps average 20*F, with the max low of around -10* F. I plan on heating domestic hot water. Was doing some research, and was looking between the 7200e and 7300e, not sure which.


7200 will be plenty if you don’t have future plans to expand.  Do not skimp on the lines.  Closed cell foam only, no wrap crap.


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## Goshenboy123 (Mar 29, 2020)

Thanks for the reply. I was definitely looking at Urecon/Logstor 1 1/4 piping. Did a ton or research on the btu capacity of true 1 inch, and to push around 120,000 BTU (max calculated load) at a delta t of 20° I would have to move a little more than 12gpm. This is way out of 1 inch territory and I would have a crazy high head even trying to put that much flow through that size pipe. For an 1 1/4 pipe 12gpm would be no problem as I would have much lower head and lower water velocities. 

After reading up on this forum, definitely see that the Logstor is a top notch product


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## Medic21 (Mar 29, 2020)

Goshenboy123 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was definitely looking at Urecon/Logstor 1 1/4 piping. Did a ton or research on the btu capacity of true 1 inch, and to push around 120,000 BTU (max calculated load) at a delta t of 20° I would have to move a little more than 12gpm. This is way out of 1 inch territory and I would have a crazy high head even trying to put that much flow through that size pipe. For an 1 1/4 pipe 12gpm would be no problem as I would have much lower head and lower water velocities.
> 
> After reading up on this forum, definitely see that the Logstor is a top notch product


How many BTU is your furnace?  If it’s 120,000btu then it’s actual output is 90,000btu.  I am running 60k exchanger, 50k unit heater, 20 plate dhw off of 1 1/4 ID pipe with a 26-99 main pump on low and three 15-58  pumps on low.   Delta t is 20 degrees if everything is calling for heat.  The max you will get out of the 1 1/4 pipe your talking about is about 10gpm if it’s 50’ each way.  Realistically you can get what you need out of 1” logstor and a 15-58 pump on high.  

I did a primary/secondary loop in order to get what I need but if all you are heating is a dhw and water to air coil that will be plenty in series.  If your on Facebook look for Hydronic Wood Heating and put in a request to join.  Ask Darin about sizing for the line and pump.  He’s a genius and does it everyday.  Save you a lot of money on pipe.


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## E Yoder (Mar 30, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> Woodstove Database | Burnwise | US EPA
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where are they on the 2020 list? I'm not seeing them. HeatMaster has 2020 compliant models coming but the current G series isn't legal for residential after May 15. Is Crown bringing on new units this spring?
From my reading of the NSPS, the definition of a commercial building is what it is used for, not sq ft. If a house is attached to the boiler then a commercial exemption doesn't apply. 
I know there's been no enforcement by the EPA, so it's somewhat irrelevant,  I'm just discussing for fun.


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

E Yoder said:


> Where are they on the 2020 list? I'm not seeing them. HeatMaster has 2020 compliant models coming but the current G series isn't legal for residential after May 15. Is Crown bringing on new units this spring?
> From my reading of the NSPS, the definition of a commercial building is what it is used for, not sq ft. If a house is attached to the boiler then a commercial exemption doesn't apply.
> I know there's been no enforcement by the EPA, so it's somewhat irrelevant,  I'm just discussing for fun.


Listed under Greentech Manufacturing.


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## Goshenboy123 (Mar 30, 2020)

Looking at the EPA website, I am not seeing Crown Royal/ Greentech Manufacturing being 2020 compliant. I have a screenshot attached below of all the 2020 Approved Wood Boilers.

Regarding my plumbing situation, the boiler would be 100 feet away from my house in one direction, so a total loop of 200'. On top of this, I was going to use an 80 Plate exchanger to connect the boiler to my existing oil boiler.  Regarding my oil burner output, it is rated at 140,000 BTU with an efficiency rating of 85%, so that's how I got my 120,000 BTU rating.

I don't have a Facebook, but thank you for that idea. Never realized how much help there was out there for wood heating.


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

They must not be updated.  They actually met the specs last year, first to do so.

remember you will be using 160-190 degree water to heat 120 degree water. You will be fine with 1” and a 15-58 pump to get what you want. A 40 plate with 1” mpt fittings is rated at 160,000btu at 180 degree water.  80 plate is overkill.  

  I’d never turn you away from going with bigger pipe if there was a chance things could change in the future though.


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## salecker (Mar 30, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> These do not use storage like your Garns and the such.  They run wide open or off.  These are completely different.


Adding storage would make them a little better water heater,plus then you aren't a slave to the fire box.


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## andym (Mar 30, 2020)

I don't want to derail this thread, but does anyone know what the delivered efficiency rating is on any of the outdoor gassers?


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

salecker said:


> Adding storage would make them a little better water heater,plus then you aren't a slave to the fire box.


The way they are designed if you added water storage you wouldn’t have enough load in them to be efficient and you would loose your coal bed.  They hold about 300 gallons that continuously circulates.  For a down draft gasser to be lit once a day you would spend a couple hours just getting the fire going.  

loading for 12 hours takes 5 min twice a day.


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

andym said:


> I don't want to derail this thread, but does anyone know what the delivered efficiency rating is on any of the outdoor gassers?


Roughly 75%-80% when you look at chamber temps vs flue temps.  1600 degrees down to 200-400 degrees output.   It’s a neat design.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 30, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> They must not be updated. They actually met the specs last year, first to do so.


They seem to update every few weeks...so if its not on there, EPA really dropped the ball...and so did the manufacturer for not checking it...either that, or they didn't meet all the rules of the test...lots of company's have gotten caught up in the bureaucracy of this 2020 testing...imagine that, government got involved and made a mess...


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> They seem to update every few weeks...so if its not on there, EPA really dropped the ball...and so did the manufacturer for not checking it...either that, or they didn't meet all the rules of the test...lots of company's have gotten caught up in the bureaucracy of this 2020 testing...imagine that, government got involved and made a mess...


I know for a fact the E Series has made it.  They did their own testing back in January.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 30, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> They did their own testing back in January.


That's why it's not listed then...it has to be tested by one of a handful of certified labs to count


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> That's why it's not listed then...it has to be tested by one of a handful of certified labs to count


They have built their own certified lab for testing.


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## Highbeam (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah, that happened in the stove world too. Some manufacturers claimed to already exceed the requirements of the 2020 testing which is not the same thing as actually having passed the epa test to be qualified for sale after may 15. Only those that are on the epa list have passed.


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Yeah, that happened in the stove world too. Some manufacturers claimed to already exceed the requirements of the 2020 testing which is not the same thing as actually having passed the epa test to be qualified for sale after may 15. Only those that are on the epa list have passed.


The 7200E met the 2020 standard under the previous testing at phase 1


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## brenndatomu (Mar 30, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> They have built their own certified lab for testing.


It has to be an independent lab...that's why they aren't listed, they haven't done that test yet apparently...


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## Medic21 (Mar 30, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> It has to be an independent lab...that's why they aren't listed, they haven't done that test yet apparently...


When I spoke to the sales manager in January he said they were the first to build their own certified lab.  I was under the understanding it was done with the EPA.


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## E Yoder (Mar 31, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> When I spoke to the sales manager in January he said they were the first to build their own certified lab.  I was under the understanding it was done with the EPA.


My understanding is testing in your own lab is no longer allowed. All 2020 models have to be tested in an independent lab.  Too much room for things to get tweaked.
I dunno, just what I've heard.  I noticed CB tested in another lab, not their own.


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## brenndatomu (Mar 31, 2020)

E Yoder said:


> Too much room for things to get tweaked.


Yes, there are a TON of variables...from what Lamppa MFG has said you can do 10 tests and get 10 different results...seems to me, in your own lab, it would be really easy to skew results to pass that aren't realistic real world operating conditions...part of what EPA is trying to do away with.
Or you could even just test until you come up with "a good one"...where with using an independent lab, you are scheduled for certain number of days (and they are scheduled WAY out right now, or have been anyways!) pay a certain amount of money (big $$) and in the end, the results are the results.


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## Highbeam (Mar 31, 2020)

Would you trust in house testing from hy-c?


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## brenndatomu (Mar 31, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Would you trust in house testing from hy-c?



 

Supposedly they had to retest the one that they list as "certified" because they only "passed" after receiving a variance on the test procedure...then it was later determined that the variance went too far and the original intent of the test procedure was not met...


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## sloeffle (Mar 31, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Would you trust in house testing from hy-c?


I wouldn't trust HY-C to find their way out of a wet paper bag.


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## Medic21 (Mar 31, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Would you trust in house testing from hy-c?


That’s funny.  

There is more engineering in the handle that keeps the ash door closed on my Crown Royal than that entire piece of crap I had before...


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## E Yoder (Apr 1, 2020)

To be honest I'm not a big  fan of expensive tests and regulations, but- I am glad we have less sketchy manufacturers in the outdoor boiler world than we used to. In '08 when fuel spiked it seemed like there was a new miracle boiler popping up all the time making unrealistic claims of efficiency, 1/2” thick fireboxes, etc. Most have disappeared now, the regs have slowed their ability to advertise and online reviews and problems have caught up with them.  
Treating people right always pays off with time.


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## Medic21 (Apr 1, 2020)

E Yoder said:


> To be honest I'm not a big  fan of expensive tests and regulations, but- I am glad we have less sketchy manufacturers in the outdoor boiler world than we used to. In '08 when fuel spiked it seemed like there was a new miracle boiler popping up all the time making unrealistic claims of efficiency, 1/2” thick fireboxes, etc. Most have disappeared now, the regs have slowed their ability to advertise and online reviews and problems have caught up with them.
> Treating people right always pays off with time.


There is still one of those in MI.  price is cheap as hell and he doesn’t give a chit about regs or where it’s going.


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## brenndatomu (Apr 1, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> There is still one of those in MI.  price is cheap as hell and he doesn’t give a chit about regs or where it’s going.


One of those guys that's gonna ride the train right off the cliff, huh?


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## andym (Apr 1, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> There is still one of those in MI.  price is cheap as hell and he doesn’t give a chit about regs or where it’s going.


I know exactly who you're referring to! I very nearly purchased a rebuild kit from them to build my own smoke dragon. (That was before I joined this forum. ..and learned how truly inefficient they are!)
I think this is a prime illustration of how government regulations (while accomplishing a lot of good) have forced prices beyond what many people are willing/able to afford. 
One CB dealer said he could sell me a Classic, he just couldn't hook it to my house. If the EPA is so concerned about pollution, why don't they ditch the "commercial purposes" clause?
The manufacturer mentioned above is only selling what his customers want. Albeit illegally.


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## Medic21 (Apr 1, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> One of those guys that's gonna ride the train right off the cliff, huh?


His history as a sex offender for crimes against children suggests he rode that train a long time ago.  

That’s why I didn’t buy from him and glad I didn’t.  The$4,000 saved probably would have been a repeat of the HY-C debacle...


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## Deets (Sep 9, 2020)

Hey fellas, 
New guy here, read through this thread and found some good info. But still have some questions on the topic of gasser VS multipass. 
This 12 hour burn thing on the gassers, I just don’t see it working for me. Are any of you guys running em for 24 hours consistently?


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## SpaceBus (Sep 9, 2020)

I think an indoor (maybe even in it's own outbuilding) gasser with storage might be a better solution for you. Burn one fire a day wide open and charge up your storage and then coast on the storage.


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## Deets (Sep 9, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I think an indoor (maybe even in it's own outbuilding) gasser with storage might be a better solution for you. Burn one fire a day wide open and charge up your storage and then coast on the storage.


I’m not entirely against that, but I leave for work early and home late. Don’t really have the time to start fires every day. Or tend to it to make sure it burns long enough to heat the storage to last 24 hours. 
I’m very unfamiliar with this method, I’d have to see a setup before I just went Into full investment blindly.


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## E Yoder (Sep 10, 2020)

I check mine morning and evening, during busy season that could be 16+ hours apart. I could load it for 24 hours but it would tend to bridge more and drip  (condense) more in the firebox. 
Loading and shaking the turbulators takes 2 minutes so it's not a problem on my way in or out. 
My dad has an older conventional unit, loads once every 24 hours, it does fine that way. I burn much less wood with my gasser.


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

E Yoder said:


> I check mine morning and evening, during busy season that could be 16+ hours apart. I could load it for 24 hours but it would tend to bridge more and drip  (condense) more in the firebox.
> Loading and shaking the turbulators takes 2 minutes so it's not a problem on my way in or out.
> My dad has an older conventional unit, loads once every 24 hours, it does fine that way. I burn much less wood with my gasser.


What stove are you running?


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

And let’s say I’m burning for a long period of time on 25% MC. Is the stove gunna stay clean enough? Or will it make a mess of the turbulators/heat exchangers?


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## maple1 (Sep 10, 2020)

Deets said:


> And let’s say I’m burning for a long period of time on 25% MC. Is the stove gunna stay clean enough? Or will it make a mess of the turbulators/heat exchangers?



Loading a conventional boiler full for long times is a recipe for a creosote mess.

If I was going to get into an OWB, it would be a gasifier, no 2 ways about it. (Not even sure you can still buy a conventional one these EPA days?).Then I would run it like it had to be run, not run it how I wanted & end up disappointed. That could mean drying my wood more than I was used to or hoping, and also likely mean loading smaller loads with shorter burn times than I was hoping for. Even at that, twice a day should be realistic. Boilers aren't wood stoves, they aren't designed for long burn times from the get go so trying to get them can be trouble. After all, you are dealing with a liquid cooled firebox here, so it's just the nature of the beast. They work their best when burning freely.

Do you have any OWB experience? The underground stuff is overlooked a lot. You need to get that right, above all else. Which means buying the good stuff to start with, which can run up to $20/foot depending on your local supply situation.


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

maple1 said:


> Loading a conventional boiler full for long times is a recipe for a creosote mess.
> 
> If I was going to get into an OWB, it would be a gasifier, no 2 ways about it. (Not even sure you can still buy a conventional one these EPA days?).Then I would run it like it had to be run, not run it how I wanted & end up disappointed. That could mean drying my wood more than I was used to or hoping, and also likely mean loading smaller loads with shorter burn times than I was hoping for. Even at that, twice a day should be realistic. Boilers aren't wood stoves, they aren't designed for long burn times from the get go so trying to get them can be trouble. After all, you are dealing with a liquid cooled firebox here, so it's just the nature of the beast. They work their best when burning freely.
> 
> Do you have any OWB experience? The underground stuff is overlooked a lot. You need to get that right, above all else. Which means buying the good stuff to start with, which can run up to $20/foot depending on your local supply situation.


I ran a Timber Ridge OWB for the last 12 years. Huge firebox, 4’ diameter and 4’ long. Kept about 12” of ash/coals in the bottom, fill it up and I could get about 36 hours at 30 degrees. Never had a creosote problem. When it got cold out (-20) it would run hard enough to burn any excess off. At those temps I found myself throwing in a couple pieces in the morning, main filling was at night when I got home from work. My old house was poorly insulated though.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2020)

Can you tell us more about the building you will be heating with the new boiler? I think with the right sized Lambda controlled gasser you could do one load a day and charge storage. Perhaps a forced air setup like the Lampaa Kuuma Vaporfire series might be worth a look.


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

My new house is much better built and insulated. Just over 4000 sq ft and half is forced air and the other half is heated concrete floor. Have a 1200 sq ft out building that insulated well and has pex in the floor for radiant heat but no manifolds or boiler hooked to it yet. Also have plans to pour a new 600-700 sq ft patio with the ability to heat it. 
So I’m looking at an OWB that can handle 7,000 sq ft.


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

And the hot water as well


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## salecker (Sep 10, 2020)

Deets said:


> And let’s say I’m burning for a long period of time on 25% MC. Is the stove gunna stay clean enough? Or will it make a mess of the turbulators/heat exchangers?


yes


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## salecker (Sep 10, 2020)

On a normal winter day-20C...
I start a fire when i get home at 5 ish the boiler runs wide open till 10-11 ish when the last load is gone.The boiler getd shut off till i come home at 5 ish the next day.
 Starting a fire in my gasifier takes 5 minuets,if that


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## cumminstinkerer (Sep 10, 2020)

I agree with Thomas @salecker it takes no time and if you idle at all its gonna gunk the tubes and turbs up, unless you rig a way to open the bypass flap when it idles then close it after few minutes of call for heat


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

salecker said:


> On a normal winter day-20C...
> I start a fire when i get home at 5 ish the boiler runs wide open till 10-11 ish when the last load is gone.The boiler getd shut off till i come home at 5 ish the next day.
> Starting a fire in my gasifier takes 5 minuets,if that


I take it that you are using extra storage. What you guys are saying is that if a guy was to go buy a new gasification boiler, you can’t run it without extra storage?


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

Or are you just relying on your backup heat for the last 6 hrs?


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## cumminstinkerer (Sep 10, 2020)

I suppose you can run without storage but it will gunk it up for sure, and yes we are using external storage, I do not remember how much Thomas has but I have 1500 gallon


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## cumminstinkerer (Sep 10, 2020)

@Deets I do not have back up heat at the moment, propane furnace died, board went bad, and I haven't replaced it yet, until it gets down close to 0 and windy I can go almost 48 hours with no fire, 0 and below I go 24 hours, my house is pretty small 1300sf with basement, poor insulation but good windows, it's  a little old farm house built in the 30s, I used to run a "smoke dragon" as they are called and my dad still does, they eat about 3 times the wood that my econburn does, I had mine really moded and was getting pretty good efficiency along with adding the storage, but sadly she rusted out due to poor operating practices ( many things I didn't know until I found this site).


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

You guys are gunna cost me some money....


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

Stainless tank underneath of my woodshed would be kinda nice.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2020)

Deets said:


> You guys are gunna cost me some money....



This happens to me every time I join a forum!


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## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2020)

Deets said:


> Stainless tank underneath of my woodshed would be kinda nice.


The tanks really need to be insulated, especially if they are outside.


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> The tanks really need to be insulated, especially if they are outside.


Underground would suffice? Under a concrete pad, with a small access to the connections.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 10, 2020)

Deets said:


> Underground would suffice? Under a concrete pad, with a small access to the connections.


I'm no expert, but I would guess not, since the earth/stone/concrete would just absorb all of the heat. Then you would have a mud hole around your shed.


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## Deets (Sep 10, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I'm no expert, but I would guess not, since the earth/stone/concrete would just absorb all of the heat. Then you would have a mud hole around your shed.


Oof, didn’t think about that. Was hoping it would heat the pad some, to keep the firewood nice and dry.


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## Medic21 (Sep 10, 2020)

Deets said:


> Hey fellas,
> New guy here, read through this thread and found some good info. But still have some questions on the topic of gasser VS multipass.
> This 12 hour burn thing on the gassers, I just don’t see it working for me. Are any of you guys running em for 24 hours consistently?


I see a lot of misconceptions on the OWB gassers. Yes, you can easily size it to run 24 hours.  They do better at the 12 hour mark but, if you did the 16 and 8 you would be fine.
I can load my multi pass once a day and it burns clean still down to about zero degrees before it has too much of a load.  I load before work and after work, this will be the first winter in many years I’m not on 24hr shifts.  
There is no “idling” with an OWB as it shuts air off to it when it’s not calling for heat and is airtight without the induction fans blowing.  The coal bed stays hot and it will fire right up when needed.   
As far as the mud around it. No, the line set is insulated enough and goes into the backwhere it is insulated. I have snow under my boiler that never melts. And, I can buy the line sets at$12-$13 dollars a foot all day long.

You will have to buy a Gasser unless you have commercial applications. The 7500 E Crown Royal would be plenty big enough and will probably give you those 24 hour burns unless it got really cold out. Check out Unleashed Outdoors on YouTube for some good videos. He is a dealer and is heating about what you want to.

They are more like a modulated boiler than something that needs storage. The storage route is expensive and will require a pressurized system be open system. Completely different animals.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 10, 2020)

cumminstinkerer said:


> I suppose you can run without storage but it will gunk it up for sure, and yes we are using external storage


I think the new Heatmaster G series are designed to be used without storage...among others...


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## Medic21 (Sep 10, 2020)

brenndatomu said:


> I think the new Heatmaster G series are designed to be used without storage...among others...


If you tried to run storage with one of those you would be lighting a fire every time you filled it.  And getting a coal bed for it to run would have you so pissed you would never use it.  

theyhave the 150-300 gallons of water they need depending on size.  Most run from 160 on to 180 off on the controls.  It should fire and run a handful of times each day depending on temps and heat load.  I adjust my set points so mine runs about once every hour to hour and a half.


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## E Yoder (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> What stove are you running?


A HeatMaster G7000.  As was mentioned a completely different animal than the indoor style gassers with separate storage.  
It stays the cleanest loading for 12 hours, but I could do 16/8 with no issues. 
My experience over the years has been that conventional style units can tolerate the 24 hour loading pattern better, but the gassers get more forgiving with every year model changes. 
You can buy a conventional unit, be aware that burning coal while heating your house or connecting to a commercial building is your only legal use.


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## Deets (Sep 11, 2020)

E Yoder said:


> A HeatMaster G7000.  As was mentioned a completely different animal than the indoor style gassers with separate storage.
> It stays the cleanest loading for 12 hours, but I could do 16/8 with no issues.
> My experience over the years has been that conventional style units can tolerate the 24 hour loading pattern better, but the gassers get more forgiving with every year model changes.
> You can buy a conventional unit, be aware that burning coal while heating your house or connecting to a commercial building is your only legal use.


I’ve been looking at the G7000, you think that would be enough stove for my application?


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## Deets (Sep 11, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> The 7500 E Crown Royal would be plenty big enough and will probably give you those 24 hour burns unless it got really cold out. Check out Unleashed Outdoors on YouTube for some good videos. He is a dealer and is heating about what you want to.



7400 is the biggest gasser they build, I need to compare the specs on the crown and the heat master. Pretty much narrowed it down to those two brands.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 11, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> I see a lot of misconceptions on the OWB gassers. Yes, you can easily size it to run 24 hours.  They do better at the 12 hour mark but, if you did the 16 and 8 you would be fine.
> I can load my multi pass once a day and it burns clean still down to about zero degrees before it has too much of a load.  I load before work and after work, this will be the first winter in many years I’m not on 24hr shifts.
> There is no “idling” with an OWB as it shuts air off to it when it’s not calling for heat and is airtight without the induction fans blowing.  The coal bed stays hot and it will fire right up when needed.
> As far as the mud around it. No, the line set is insulated enough and goes into the backwhere it is insulated. I have snow under my boiler that never melts. And, I can buy the line sets at$12-$13 dollars a foot all day long.
> ...


I meant mud would be caused by a buried tank of water, not an OWB.


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## Medic21 (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> 7400 is the biggest gasser they build, I need to compare the specs on the crown and the heat master. Pretty much narrowed it down to those two brands.


I think my phone changed that on man.

I think the Heat Master units are awesome and well built also but, the Crown Royal is a lot more simple and less electronics.  Just something to think about.


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## E Yoder (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> My new house is much better built and insulated. Just over 4000 sq ft and half is forced air and the other half is heated concrete floor. Have a 1200 sq ft out building that insulated well and has pex in the floor for radiant heat but no manifolds or boiler hooked to it yet. Also have plans to pour a new 600-700 sq ft patio with the ability to heat it.
> So I’m looking at an OWB that can handle 7,000 sq ft.


I think the house and garage would be a good fit for the G7000. Not sure what you mean by heating the patio- snowmelt? 
So that could be a variable, as it would be intermittent. 
They do have a G10,000 now also. 
If you're gone long days you're still gonna want to check it morning and evening (even if it's 16+ hours apart), if nothing else just to bump the wood together. It takes 2 minutes and it'll burn better.  The key thing with the G models I've seen I'd letting it burn down to a coal bed once a day. Don't top it off constantly. 
The O2 sensor on the new G's helps it run clean even when loaded heavy, something they didn't have with the 2019 models.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 11, 2020)

E Yoder said:


> I think the house and garage would be a good fit for the G7000. Not sure what you mean by heating the patio- snowmelt?
> So that could be a variable, as it would be intermittent.
> They do have a G10,000 now also.
> If you're gone long days you're still gonna want to check it morning and evening (even if it's 16+ hours apart), if nothing else just to bump the wood together. It takes 2 minutes and it'll burn better.  The key thing with the G models I've seen I'd letting it burn down to a coal bed once a day. Don't top it off constantly.
> The O2 sensor on the new G's helps it run clean even when loaded heavy, something they didn't have with the 2019 models.


I bet an O2 controlled outdoor gasser is every bit as efficient as the Kuuma VF100, which is to say pretty great. If I needed a wood hydronic system those G series gassers seem pretty nice.


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## salecker (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> I take it that you are using extra storage. What you guys are saying is that if a guy was to go buy a new gasification boiler, you can’t run it without extra storage?


Yes i have 1000 gal of storage.
You can run a gasifier without storage but the time you spend cleaning it will make the time spent starting a fire seem minuscule.
I causally go from the end of oct to the middle of April without using the backup oil.When my family was still here we would go on holidays during spring break,then the oil boiler would run for a couple of weeks


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## salecker (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> Oof, didn’t think about that. Was hoping it would heat the pad some, to keep the firewood nice and dry.


One of the reasons i built a building for mine.
I keep about 4 days of wood in the heated building.I never had a wiood shed for years so in the time the wood was inside it would dry any surface moisture and be at +20 C instead of -40C if brought in from outside.Plus i have a workshop that is warm 24/7


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## brenndatomu (Sep 11, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I bet an O2 controlled outdoor gasser is every bit as efficient as the Kuuma VF100


Probably.
But as far as clean burning, the lamba controlled boiler might win...at least over the span of the whole fire cycle. The VF is controlling the firebox temp, the lamba boiler is constantly adjusting the air to make the emissions as clean as possible.


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## Deets (Sep 11, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> I think my phone changed that on man.
> 
> I think the Heat Master units are awesome and well built also but, the Crown Royal is a lot more simple and less electronics.  Just something to think about.


Simple is good when it comes to replacing electronics. How about overall build quality? One seem better than the other, or is it like a Ford/Chevy thing?


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## SpaceBus (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> Simple is good when it comes to replacing electronics. How about overall build quality? One seem better than the other, or is it like a Ford/Chevy thing?



I think in this case it's Lambda/O2 controlled vs a more conventional "on/off" style boilers.


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## Deets (Sep 11, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I think in this case it's Lambda/O2 controlled vs a more conventional "on/off" style boilers.


You might as well be speaking a different language.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> You might as well be speaking a different language.


The O2 sensor can tell how much unburned fuel there is in the smoke stream and make adjusments to the air intake to clean up the exhaust. A boiler without an O2 sensor will just open up the air when there is a call for heat and then close it. Much like how an auto tune saw can monitor the exhaust and make changes to the fueling.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> You might as well be speaking a different language.


Model T vs 2020 F-150


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## Deets (Sep 11, 2020)

So, does the heat master G7000 or the Crown Royal 7400e have an O2 sensor? Or are we talking different stoves all together?


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## E Yoder (Sep 11, 2020)

The HeatMaster G models have an O2 sensor. I don't think Crown does but I haven't seen this year model.


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## JimBear (Sep 11, 2020)

I see you are getting all kinds of answers to your questions Deets. Lots of helpful info but that’s what you joined for. You are even learning a new language. Lol.


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## Medic21 (Sep 11, 2020)

Deets said:


> Simple is good when it comes to replacing electronics. How about overall build quality? One seem better than the other, or is it like a Ford/Chevy thing?


To me they are both quality craftsmanship.  Of all the OWB on the market those two companies have the best support and will actually stand by their product.  The most well known has a track record of piss poor service after the sale, I won’t bash any company unless it’s HY-C.  

Reach out to dealers local to you and compare both. There are plenty of good dealers that will tell you straight up what they like about each and what they don’t like. Beware of dealers that only bad mouth the competition, they will be hard to find after the sale is complete. 



E Yoder said:


> The HeatMaster G models have an O2 sensor. I don't think Crown does but I haven't seen this year model.


Crown made very little changes to meet the 2020 guidelines.  Looks mainly like the nozzle and refractory were changed, actually better now


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## SpaceBus (Sep 12, 2020)

JimBear said:


> I see you are getting all kinds of answers to your questions Deets. Lots of helpful info but that’s what you joined for. You are even learning a new language. Lol.


I warned he might get too much advice


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## SpaceBus (Sep 12, 2020)

If I were in the market I wouldn't consider anything other than the G series gasser, but I also don't have access to cheap bulk coal deliveries. If you can get cheap coal the multi-pass doesn't seem like a bad deal, but I would stress about the heavy metal content of the coal...


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## Medic21 (Sep 12, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> If I were in the market I wouldn't consider anything other than the G series gasser, but I also don't have access to cheap bulk coal deliveries. If you can get cheap coal the multi-pass doesn't seem like a bad deal, but I would stress about the heavy metal content of the coal...


I burned coal for a few weeks last year.  It’s a different animal and it needs to be pretty cold out to keep it burning.  It does burn extremely clean though.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 12, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> I burned coal for a few weeks last year.  It’s a different animal and it needs to be pretty cold out to keep it burning.  It does burn extremely clean though.



I do like that anthracite is smokeless and I did consider a dual fuel cookstove, but the heavy metals in the emissions turns me off.


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## Deets (Sep 12, 2020)

I’ve got an endless supply of wood. 13 acres of woods here, and good friends with about 4 different tree company’s that love to dump wood.


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## Medic21 (Sep 12, 2020)

Deets said:


> I’ve got an endless supply of wood. 13 acres of woods here, and good friends with about 4 different tree company’s that love to dump wood.


I will suggest at least 6 cords of season wood ready for a gasser and 12 cords if you go with a MP.  

bottom line is you will need to be three years ahead on wood to have properly seasoned wood every year.  No matter what anyone tells you the hardwoods will not season in one or two summers.


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## Deets (Sep 12, 2020)

I also work at a coke and stone foundry from time to time. I brought a bucket of coke home and threw in the burner. Must not have been running hard enough to make use of it though. 
maybe in a gasser?


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## Medic21 (Sep 12, 2020)

Deets said:


> I also work at a coke and stone foundry from time to time. I brought a bucket of coke home and threw in the burner. Must not have been running hard enough to make use of it though.
> maybe in a gasser?


No gasser is rated for anything outside of wood.  I know someone that burned coal in a E series and had to replace all the refractory and warped all the steel.  Burn chamber temps were double a wood fire.


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## Deets (Sep 12, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> No gasser is rated for anything outside of wood.  I know someone that burned coal in a E series and had to replace all the refractory and warped all the steel.  Burn chamber temps were double a wood fire.


I guess I’ll leave that be then.


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## maple1 (Sep 13, 2020)

Medic21 said:


> I will suggest at least 6 cords of season wood ready for a gasser and 12 cords if you go with a MP.
> 
> bottom line is you will need to be three years ahead on wood to have properly seasoned wood every year.  No matter what anyone tells you the hardwoods will not season in one or two summers.



I'd generally agree,  but it does depend on your drying conditions. I have a high open sunny airy place. With this dry summer I think I could have burned Ok after a year. Usually 2 gets it pretty good. The 3rd leaves no doubt you've got some decent rocket fuel.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 13, 2020)

All of my fir and spruce firewood has dried in a month. I've been keeping my lumber stacked without air gaps just to try and keep it from cracking before I use it.


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## Highbeam (Sep 13, 2020)

Fir and spruce softwoods can dry much faster than most of the dense hardwoods.


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## SpaceBus (Sep 13, 2020)

Highbeam said:


> Fir and spruce softwoods can dry much faster than most of the dense hardwoods.


Of course, but it had huge checks and cracks in a month, usually it takes several months.


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## Deets (Sep 13, 2020)

Weather definitely plays a big role


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## E Yoder (Sep 14, 2020)

Deets said:


> Weather definitely plays a big role


I would agree, and how well the wind and sun can get to your wood stack. I've seen wood get to 15-20% in one summer, this year it isn't happening for me tho, it's super wet this year. 
I tried coal one time on a G series, the clinkers clogged the nozzle. I would be concerned about warpage on the air panels over time, altho the 2020 ones are stiffer. You really need a shaker grate unit for coal.


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## maple1 (Sep 14, 2020)

It's been super dry here. Still holding my breath on our well - it's frickin low. Crops to crap. Ya, not good.

I just remembered about the maples I cut up at our cottage this time a year ago after Dorian. They were full green when they came down. I got them in stacks fairly quick. Gonna have to try to remember to check some of it with the MM.  I won't be burning it for a year or 2 yet.


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## salecker (Sep 14, 2020)

Cutting 24"DSH standing dead Spruce for this years wood it's 12% standing according to my moisture meter.
Bonus of living in a semi arid area.


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## 08roady (Mar 11, 2021)

Deets said:


> So, does the heat master G7000 or the Crown Royal 7400e have an O2 sensor? Or are we talking different stoves all together?


Does anyone have a Crown Royal dealer info you could share?


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## salecker (Mar 11, 2021)

Umm Crown Royal...
my favorite rye


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## 08roady (Mar 11, 2021)

salecker said:


> Umm Crown Royal...
> my favorite rye


Not that Crown Royal, but I do agree with ya!! Lol


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## JuanB1961 (Sep 17, 2022)

Goshenboy123 said:


> I am heating 2300sq ft. The home is insulated fairly well, but nothing crazy. Winter temps average 20*F, with the max low of around -10* F. I plan on heating domestic hot water. Was doing some research, and was looking between the 7200e and 7300e, not sure which.


I know this is an old post but I too am now looking between the 7200E and 7300E, have 2400sf and was quoted 11-12k for 7200E and 15-16k for the 7300E!  Did you get the 7200E and do you like it?  Money is tight and need to know if it will cover my needs.  BTW, I’m really well insulated but we keep the house at 75° when home, 68° when sleeping!


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