# Add-on Wood Boiler



## Marshy (May 11, 2017)

Hi guys, I'm tired of trying to heat my house with a free standing stove and I've decided its time to add a wood boiler to my existing hydronic system. I'm starting this thread because there seems to be a lot of options and so much information available its a little overwhelming. I'll have questions along the way and would appreciated your feedback/knowledge/direction to resources as I try to put together a system and balance cost with reliability.

The installed hydronic system has a Utica Boiler, 4 heating zones with finned baseboard heaters and 1 zone for an indirect hot water heater. I will get the rating for the boiler later but suffice to say its either 95K or 105K BTU size. The system is closed and operates at 10psi.

I would like to incorporate thermal storage in the system. I found a forum member nearby me selling a 820 gal unpressurized thermal storage tank with a 100K BTU heat exchanger. My goal is to purchase the tank and install it in my basement. I would use the 100K HTX to provide heat to the house loop. I would like to keep the boiler a closed looped and use antifreeze so I will likely get a HTX for that side of the loop (probably 150K BTU HTX).

Questions I have right now are, what size boiler should I be considering, is 150K BTU large enough?
There is a used (indoor) ECOBURN 300K BTU boiler for sale nearby for $4500 that was manufactured in 2013, thoughts?

Thanks in advance.


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## NateB (May 11, 2017)

That heat exchanger should be use to provide heat to the floors and put heat into the tank from the wood boiler.

The 300k boiler will be too big for that tank heat exchanger combination.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Marshy (May 11, 2017)

Thanks for the input. I just spoke with a rep at ECOBURN and he suggested that I put two 150K HTXs in parallel on the boiler loop to heat that tank. He said the 100K HTX might be fine for the house side of the loop but mentioned the boiler will easily go into idle mode if it cannot get the heat into the tank making the boiler very inefficient.

I also talked with the manufacturer of the tank and he said that 820 gal is actually on the smaller side that they would recommend for my area of NY.

Regardless, it sounds like having enough heat transfer is going to be key.


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## NateB (May 11, 2017)

I bought my tank and HX from Tom. He was a big help for me in getting my system setup.  I used primary secondary plumbing on my system, and I used supply house.Com for all my fittings.  Webstone Purge tees helped in simplifying the install.

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## Highbeam (May 11, 2017)

Good thread, I'm following. I can't imagine a 300k btu boiler being anywhere near the right size for what you're doing. Way too big even though I realize that the rate of output just means it will take less time to charge the tank.


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## NateB (May 11, 2017)

If the HX can out put the BTUs in to the tank fast enough. I think what would happen even with small loads of wood is that the boiler would have a tendency to over heat, because it will put out BTUs faster than the HX can use them.

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## Marshy (May 11, 2017)

NateB said:


> If the HX can out put the BTUs in to the tank fast enough. I think what would happen even with small loads of wood is that the boiler would have a tendency to over heat, because it will put out BTUs faster than the HX can use them.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


Yes, there is benefits and draw backs if I oversizing the boiler. The benefit is can heat my storage rather quickly. The down side is I have to spend more in sizing the proper heat exchanger to keep the boiler from entering idle mode and wasting efficiency and fuel. 

The Ecoburn 300 I was looking at a 300K BTU output but is priced very reasonably at $4500 and It's a 2013 model. Ecoburn said if I give them some info on the manufacturing plate they can tell me if it's ever been warrantied and how it was installed originally (commercial or residential).


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## Highbeam (May 12, 2017)

So you want to burn the whole firebox load at high output to charge your tank and then use the tank's heat over the next day. You know that the output at full burn is 300k. So do you just vary the amount you fill the firebox based on temperature of the tank so as not to overshoot the desired tank temp and cause the boiler to idle?


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## maple1 (May 12, 2017)

Was that Econoburn used with storage? Do you know what it was heating?

As already mentioned, a boiler that big would have lots of potential for idling if it wasn't sized right for the application it was in, especially if it wasn't tied to storage from day 1. So if it wasn't (improper procedures could do it too), I would be leery of its condition even if it is a 2013 - there could have been corrosion going on in its firebox for the time it's been in service that might not be evident. You could likely get a more properly sized boiler, new, for maybe 50% more money?

Just a thought. Otherwise, adding an extra HX might be a small price to pay to get what you have lined up, working properly together. If you go that route I would go to Tom for one, and bend his ear while there for suggestions. He knows stuff.


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## maple1 (May 12, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> So you want to burn the whole firebox load at high output to charge your tank and then use the tank's heat over the next day. You know that the output at full burn is 300k. So do you just vary the amount you fill the firebox based on temperature of the tank so as not to overshoot the desired tank temp and cause the boiler to idle?



Sounds right.


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## Marshy (May 12, 2017)

Highbeam said:


> So you want to burn the whole firebox load at high output to charge your tank and then use the tank's heat over the next day. You know that the output at full burn is 300k. So do you just vary the amount you fill the firebox based on temperature of the tank so as not to overshoot the desired tank temp and cause the boiler to idle?


Yes, that's exactly the purpose and how it would work, ideally.

With the back of the napkin calculation I could see how many BTU's it would take to heat my storage tank across an assumed temperature band. The larger the difference in temperature of the storage tank the more BTUs required and the better I can utilize the capacity of the larger boiler. It may be unpractical to get that 300k boiler even if I do partial fuel loads. I have to believe there is some sort of penality to the boilers efficiency when loading half a load vs full.

That asside, the potential draw back of my currently installed hydronic system (base board) is they are relatively inefficient at lower water temperatures. That may require me to control the storage tank temp between 160-190 vs 130 or 140-190. Having a larger delta T in storage is a blessing and something like in floor heating is very forgiving at lower water temps compared to baseboard. Controlling a narrow temp band in the tank is counterproductive in many cases because it increases the firing cycles of the boiler rather than letting it run full speed for the duration of the fuel load. It's a balance that needs considering.



maple1 said:


> Was that Econoburn used with storage? Do you know what is was heating?
> 
> As already mentioned, a boiler that big would have lots of potential for idling if it wasn't sized right for the application it was in, especially if it wasn't tied to storage from day 1. So if it wasn't (improper procedures could do it too), I would be leery of its condition even if it is a 2013 - there could have been corrosion going on in its firebox for the time it's been in service that might not be evident. You could likely get a more properly sized boiler, new, for maybe 50% more money?
> 
> Just a thought. Otherwise, adding an extra HX might be a small price to pay to get what you have lined up, working properly together. If you go that route I would go to Tom for one, and bend his ear while there for suggestions. He knows stuff.


I called Econoburn and asked them if they could share any info on the boiler, like if they did any warranty or repairs based on it's serial number. He said he would be happy to provide me what he has. I gave him the serial number but he needs the safety certificate # to verify the info. He said if it's the one he believes (based on the serial # alone) he believes it could have been installed originally at a state college in the forestry maintenance building. The seller bought it and was going to install it on another property he owns but decided not to. I've asked him for the safety certificate # so I can follow up with Econoburn. He said if that is the one, he has plenty of history to share, and I tend to believe the installation would be top notch at a facility like a state college. BTW, that boiler is $10,500 new before NY tax, and I asked what a refurb of the entire boiler would cost, he said they just refurbed one in bad shape for $3-3500 and he basically left with a new boiler.


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## Marshy (May 12, 2017)

Here's a good reference for calculations. Theses will come in handy later.

http://www.plumbingperspective.com/key-water-heating-charts/

BTU= (#gal x 8.3 x (delta T))

BTU= (820 x 8.3 x (190-160))
BTU= 204,180

BTU= (820 x 8.3 x (190-150))
BTU= 272,240

More to follow.


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## Chris Hoskin (May 12, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Here's a good reference for calculations. Theses will come in handy later.
> 
> http://www.plumbingperspective.com/key-water-heating-charts/
> 
> ...



Marshy, that would suggest that the 820 tank could store about one hour's output from the big Econoburn.  I recommend you either look for much larger thermal storage or (better) a smaller boiler.

Also, no need to have separate input and output coils in the tank, one coil can do both.  PM me or email me at chris@tarmusa.com  if you'd like me to send a schematic.


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## Highbeam (May 12, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Here's a good reference for calculations. Theses will come in handy later.
> 
> http://www.plumbingperspective.com/key-water-heating-charts/
> 
> ...



That tells the story. A 300,000 btu boiler could only make heat full output for an hour before dropping to idle. If you consider warm up and cool down output it will probably never even be able to get fully warmed up. Looking at the popular tarm options, their output is way lower. The 166k btu output model has a 7CF ft firebox. It doesn't take many #s of wood to get 280,000 btu. 8600 btu per # means only 33# of wood which is only a half load in my little woodstove.

I read here that most folks with these wood boilers shoot for a three hour burn so a sub 100k btu boiler would be more appropriate if your "charge" is near 300kbtu.

The tank can release 280k btu before getting too cold. Is that enough over 24 hours to keep your house warm? 12000 btu per hour is like a 3500 watt electric heater.

It looks like you have too much boiler and not enough storage for your emitters. If you could take advantage of lower water temperatures then the 820 gallons of storage will go a lot farther.


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## maple1 (May 12, 2017)

A couple of other things to consider.

Your baseboard might do better than you think at lower temps. Mine did. It seems to have been over engineered a bit when done 20 odd years ago, but I didn't discover that until I started heating from storage for a while. Which I am now very thankful for. I don't really feel a need for more heat or feel that the house is losing heat until my storage temps get down & below the 140 range. But you likely won't really know for sure until you actually do it, no matter how many heat loss numbers you run.

You could also add more emitters - hopefully? Either more baseboard, or maybe a cast iron rad in select spots? Mine (Slant Fin) was installed with the enclosures going the full wall length in most rooms, so I still have lots of places where I could add more by just cutting in fin sections under the existing enclosures. And cast iron rads are usually pretty easy to find used.

I also stretch my storage most of the time, by doing small setbacks during the day, then I burn in the evening when the house needs the heat, at the same time as the storage is depleted. And I run the stats (programmable) up a degree or two past what I might otherwise maintain in the evenings. So maybe half the boiler output, for maybe half the burn, is going to the house. And once the stats setback (usually around bed time, when the fire is almost out), nothing gets drawn from storage for a couple of hours or whatever. Once I program the stats, it just does it. Don't have to think about it. You might have to have the emitter horsepower to do that suitably though - another good reason to have over sized heat distribution, it allows you to setback if you want without screaming hot supply temps to recover. (Mine recovers very well with 160 supply).

I think sort of an 'ideal' baseline or guideline might be to have enough storage, that would hold an entire firebox of heat when depleted.

Guess that was more than a couple....


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## Fred61 (May 12, 2017)

An oversized boiler can and will be a bigger nightmare than an undersized one. I would steer clear of it and keep shopping.


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## maple1 (May 12, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Here's a good reference for calculations. Theses will come in handy later.
> 
> http://www.plumbingperspective.com/key-water-heating-charts/
> 
> ...



There is another skewing factor at play here too in the number running.

Usually when you re-charge, you do it when your supply temps get too low.

But assuming stratification is at work (I think it is with open storage & coils also), those temps are at the very top of storage.

The temps then below that will be a lot lower. I have minimum 20°dT in my storage when I recharge, most times it is in the 30 area. (I see 40 sometimes when drawing - good emitters & low flows widen that spread). Which actually applies to almost the whole storage volume, if you time things right, when the stratification layer is at or close to the top. So the above 150 example assumes an entire tank at 150 - whereas another 20 lower might be more realistic for calcing.

EDIT: I think I would try running numbers back the other way. Just for fun, you know. Start with a heat loss calc (which might be more of a guess than anything), then how long you would like to go between burns, and see how much storage you would need. That might govern things more than anything. Then you could see how that lines up with a given boiler capacity, and how many hours you would actually want to have a fire going.


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## Bad LP (May 12, 2017)

Fred61 said:


> An oversized boiler can and will be a bigger nightmare than an undersized one. I would steer clear of it and keep shopping.



This is exactly my thought. It will only get more expensive to do it twice.


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## Marshy (May 12, 2017)

I'm not committed to that 300k boiler. It happened to be reasonably priced, local, and a gassification boiler, that's why I mentioned it. I plan to keep looking for something more appropriate but I need to do some better estimating of what my heat loads are to know what I should be looking at. The only exception might be the storage. The price seems very reasonable and buying new is not in my budget. I could install the 820 gal tank and expand later if necessary. I'd like to keep the system at 7K or less. At one point I even thought about building my own boiler but I just don't have the time.

Thanks for all the input, I have a lot of reading to do. Any links on where I should start eating the elephant would be appreciated. Right now I'm going to play around with some free online heat load calcs to try and estimate my heating demand.


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## Marshy (May 12, 2017)

Chris Hoskin said:


> Marshy, that would suggest that the 820 tank could store about one hour's output from the big Econoburn.  I recommend you either look for much larger thermal storage or (better) a smaller boiler.
> 
> Also, no need to have separate input and output coils in the tank, one coil can do both.  PM me or email me at chris@tarmusa.com  if you'd like me to send a schematic.


Chris, you guys have some excellent products. I'd love to be able to afford a Froling boiler with lambda control. 
Yes I realize I only need one heat exchanger but I wanted to do a closed glycol boiler loop so if I lose power or go away for the weekend I can flip on the oil fired boiler that's already installed. I'll be in touch I'm sure. Thanks.


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## S.Whiplash (May 12, 2017)

Man, that Econoburn is about 1/3 of it's retail price.  "IF" it's in good shape I would take the saving and purchase 2 or 3 1,0000 gal. propane tanks and insulate the hell out of them, in the end you would have a very good system at a low cost with enough thermal storage to last you a couple of days depending on your heat-loss.  I doubt you're going to find anything new for under 7K.


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## Marshy (May 13, 2017)

S.Whiplash said:


> Man, that Econoburn is about 1/3 of it's retail price.  "IF" it's in good shape I would take the saving and purchase 2 or 3 1,0000 gal. propane tanks and insulate the hell out of them, in the end you would have a very good system at a low cost with enough thermal storage to last you a couple of days depending on your heat-loss.  I doubt you're going to find anything new for under 7K.


No, there's no possible way I'll get a decent boiler and storage under 7k. Actually, if I paid asking price for the boiler and the 820gal storage I would only be at $6300. If I did use the boiler I was hoping I could make up the $300 between it or the storage tank and be in it for 6K. I have about 150ft distance to where it would be placed and if the piping is $8.50/ft that'll add $1275. Only other major cost is the other htx and the glycol. 

Btw, since I have a ranch style house with an unfinished basement I would likely add some pex under the main floor for radiant heat in case my base board emitters are not enough.


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## maple1 (May 13, 2017)

For some reason I was thinking the boiler would be in your basement.

(Any way it could be?)

That 150' spacing will indeed be quite a contributor to your budget with 'proper' underground piping. And 'proper' is pretty well a necessity when it comes to that stuff. I think glycol can be pricey too.

Have you looked around where you are for used LP tanks? I (luckily) found tons of them at a large scrap yard an hour away from me. I got 2 x 330's, and a 110 for expansion, for around $800. Then again, they don't go into tight basement spaces very well. 110's are pretty easy to handle, could stack & plumb a few together maybe?

Some have built their own open storage enclosure/tank themselves, in place, then used a pro custom liner from Tom. Maybe another consideration?


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## Marshy (May 13, 2017)

I want to get the wood and fire out of the house, my wife and daughter have allergies. I have a 12x15 tool shed that I can turn into a boiler she'd. My idea was to get an indoor type boiler and install it in the shed with future plans on attaching a 24x32 ish sized garage. I might only enclose a portion of that footprint though and would like in for heat.


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## gfirkus (May 13, 2017)

Marshy said:


> No, there's no possible way I'll get a decent boiler and storage under 7k. Actually, if I paid asking price for the boiler and the 820gal storage I would only be at $6300. If I did use the boiler I was hoping I could make up the $300 between it or the storage tank and be in it for 6K. I have about 150ft distance to where it would be placed and if the piping is $8.50/ft that'll add $1275. Only other major cost is the other htx and the glycol.
> 
> Btw, since I have a ranch style house with an unfinished basement I would likely add some pex under the main floor for radiant heat in case my base board emitters are not enough.


So, I kept all receipts and a mental note of where my cost was at. After I went over my estimate, I threw all my receipts out because I didn't even want to know. I just smile now when anyone asks me the total cost. ( I also had to get water from local city  because my well water test was not good- added expense)


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## S.Whiplash (May 13, 2017)

Marshy said:


> No, there's no possible way I'll get a decent boiler and storage under 7k. Actually, if I paid asking price for the boiler and the 820gal storage I would only be at $6300. If I did use the boiler I was hoping I could make up the $300 between it or the storage tank and be in it for 6K. I have about 150ft distance to where it would be placed and if the piping is $8.50/ft that'll add $1275. Only other major cost is the other htx and the glycol.
> 
> Btw, since I have a ranch style house with an unfinished basement I would likely add some pex under the main floor for radiant heat in case my base board emitters are not enough.



Hate to break it to you but underground insulated pex at $8.50/ft. is either a very good deal or the quality is questionable.  I would avoid the bubble wrapped pipe at any cost.


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## Bad LP (May 13, 2017)

I'm 3 days into the installation. I'm doing the electric side in EMT and BX for the pumps running back into the generator panel while the 2 guys are doing the piping. Had to move the whole LP fired boiler arrangement around, remove prior wood stove, cut off manifolds and attach to a wall board, flue pipes, 2 300 gallon tanks, set the wood boiler on blocks to get it off the floor, set 2 300 ASME rated vertical gallon tanks on blocks to make room for insulation below them, double check then triple check the diagrams as we go, ect. ect.   

3 days in so far. 2 more to go.

I think I want to puke at the cost of this project and doing it right. I don't know any other way than by the book. 
Not sure I'll live long enough for the pay back unless LP comes up to almost 4.00 a gallon again.


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## NateB (May 13, 2017)

Marshy said:


> No, there's no possible way I'll get a decent boiler and storage under 7k. Actually, if I paid asking price for the boiler and the 820gal storage I would only be at $6300. If I did use the boiler I was hoping I could make up the $300 between it or the storage tank and be in it for 6K. I have about 150ft distance to where it would be placed and if the piping is $8.50/ft that'll add $1275. Only other major cost is the other htx and the glycol.
> 
> Btw, since I have a ranch style house with an unfinished basement I would likely add some pex under the main floor for radiant heat in case my base board emitters are not enough.


Glycol is not necessary. The boiler will turn on its circulator pump if it gets too cold, and if your oil boiler is on that will keep it warm.

Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


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## Marshy (May 13, 2017)

S.Whiplash said:


> Hate to break it to you but underground insulated pex at $8.50/ft. is either a very good deal or the quality is questionable.  I would avoid the bubble wrapped pipe at any cost.


Again, another thing that I have barely begun to research. I just found a $8.5-10 cost per foot when cruising the forum. I plan to buy the appropriate stuff. 



NateB said:


> Glycol is not necessary. The boiler will turn on its circulator pump if it gets too cold, and if your oil boiler is on that will keep it warm.
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


The idea was to be able to shut down the boiler and walk away from it in the middle of winter if I was going to be away for a few days and not waste fuel oil on keeping the entire system warm. Rather, isolate the storage tank and wood boiler from the oil boiler and let the oil heat just like it's installed now.


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## goosegunner (May 14, 2017)

Have my Econoburn and storage in a remote shed that is insulated. My underground is buried below the frost line and both ends come up into heated space.  We have traveled in the winter for 7-9 days with no problems. I heat the tank before we leave, shut off the pump to the house and turn on the electric base board in the boiler shed. The tank is usually still in the 145 range when we return.


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## NateB (May 14, 2017)

I would encourage you to try and get your storage into the basement. The oil to keep the boiler at 45f would not be that much.

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## Marshy (May 15, 2017)

NateB said:


> I would encourage you to try and get your storage into the basement. The oil to keep the boiler at 45f would not be that much.
> 
> Sent from my LG-D850 using Tapatalk


That is my goal. I have the perfect place for the 820 gal tank in my basement.


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## NateB (May 15, 2017)

When you out that tank in make sure you have an inch or 2 insulation between the floor and any walls. Tom has some YouTube videos for installation

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## JohnDolz (May 17, 2017)

Marshy said:


> I want to get the wood and fire out of the house, my wife and daughter have allergies. I have a 12x15 tool shed that I can turn into a boiler she'd. My idea was to get an indoor type boiler and install it in the shed with future plans on attaching a 24x32 ish sized garage. I might only enclose a portion of that footprint though and would like in for heat.


I can share a few quick thoughts based on my experience. The guys here will tell you that I am a sales guy who has minimal data to support my thinking, just experience and gut feel:

1. This project will cost a lot more than you are estimating 
2. If you balance the size of the boiler with the storage everything else will take care of itself (i.e. if both are oversized it just means more time between fires - plus some heat loss since they are not in the actual house).
3. I have a 60kw boiler that is rated at 205,000 BTU's and 1,000 gallon storage. Even when their is no call for heat (i.e. when I setback at night) my storage can absorb all of the energy produced as long as the top of my top tank is down in the low 150's or below.
4. If you use Outdoor reset to mix your supply water you will get great efficiency and be able to run your tanks way down between firings. I have regular old baseboard that came with the house, regularly run my tanks down to under 120 and keep my house at 72 degrees. If you are interested there are a bunch of posts/discussions around this
5. I try to minimize the # of fires so I let the tank temps drop way down and then just throw another 1/2 load of wood in at some point 

Hope this helps a bit.


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## Marshy (May 17, 2017)

JohnDolz said:


> I can share a few quick thoughts based on my experience. The guys here will tell you that I am a sales guy who has minimal data to support my thinking, just experience and gut feel:
> 
> 1. This project will cost a lot more than you are estimating
> 2. If you balance the size of the boiler with the storage everything else will take care of itself (i.e. if both are oversized it just means more time between fires - plus some heat loss since they are not in the actual house).
> ...


All of that makes sense except I don't know what "outdoor reset" to mix the water supply means. Is that where you mix the returning water to keep the boiler return flow temp from going below 140? I will do some searching. I was thinking of purchasing Modern Hydronic Heating for Residential and Light Commercial Buildings by John Siegenthaler.


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## maple1 (May 17, 2017)

No, it's mixing on the distribution side that varies supply temps with outdoor temps. The aim being having constantly circulating water and even room temps by varying the supply temp.


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## JohnDolz (May 19, 2017)

Marshy said:


> All of that makes sense except I don't know what "outdoor reset" to mix the water supply means. Is that where you mix the returning water to keep the boiler return flow temp from going below 140? I will do some searching. I was thinking of purchasing Modern Hydronic Heating for Residential and Light Commercial Buildings by John Siegenthaler.


If you read John's PDF that is listed in the "Sticky Threads" you will see where he talks about using low temperature water. As part of that topic he talks about using emitters that are specifically designed for low temperature water. No doubt they would be better than standard baseboard but there would be a large price tag (for me) to swap out emitters. I have been able to heat my house to my desired temperature with the old baseboards by running an almost constant flow of low temperature water at a very low volume.

Here is a link to a page that lists Outoor Reset devices that can complement any boiler/storage system. I do NOT have one of these (mine is build into my boiler controller) but one of the guys on Hearth recently installed one and was very pleased with his results:

https://store.tarmusa.com/collections/mixing-valve-controllers


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## Marshy (May 20, 2017)

Thanks for the info. I envision this project evolving long term. I would like to incorporate all of those type of technologies but it might not be in the first year or two. I will make sure the system has the necessary hardware installed so I can plug and play with these different "adders". If the current baseboard heaters don't cut the mustard I can always add pex to the underside of my floors. That's just one option vs replacing my baseboard emitters or doing a low volume low temp circulation like you described. 

I have a lot to learn, I don't have a large background in controls but would like to think I'm a fast learner. Most of this is my first time being exposed to it.


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## JohnDolz (May 20, 2017)

Marshy said:


> Thanks for the info. I envision this project evolving long term. I would like to incorporate all of those type of technologies but it might not be in the first year or two. I will make sure the system has the necessary hardware installed so I can plug and play with these different "adders". If the current baseboard heaters don't cut the mustard I can always add pex to the underside of my floors. That's just one option vs replacing my baseboard emitters or doing a low volume low temp circulation like you described.
> 
> I have a lot to learn, I don't have a large background in controls but would like to think I'm a fast learner. Most of this is my first time being exposed to it.


No worries marshy. When I started this I could barely screw in a light bulb (I am not much beyond that now). I had someone install my system an I was planning to trust him infinitely. We had an upgrade to a bigger boiler planned after year 1 (long story) and sadly he passed away which left me with an undersized boiler in my house and an bugger size boiler sitting in a warehouse. Luckily the manufacturer in Sweden was awesome in helping me and I was forced to learn a few things along the way. Not sure where in NY you are but I am in Central CT, you are always welcome to come for a visit, see my layout if you think it might help you in your planning. Good luck!


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## Marshy (Jun 4, 2017)

OK, so I got a little help from @Chris Hoskin on a recommended boiler/storage tie to my existing system. I took what he gave me and drew my system and how it would interact with the boiler system. This is what I came up with... 

Only thing I'm unsure about is if I need the C1 circulator pump or not. 

Existing system is in black, in red would be new installation.


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## Marshy (Jun 13, 2017)

If anyone is following, my diagram is drawn wrong. Don't use that. 

Anyways, I'll have time to get that straightened out while I wait for my boiler to come in. I bit the bullet and put a down payment on a Froling FHG 20/30. It will be paired with a 820 gallon American Solartechnics tank with a 100k BTU/hr htx.


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## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2017)

Marshy said:


> If anyone is following, my diagram is drawn wrong. Don't use that.
> 
> Anyways, I'll have time to get that straightened out while I wait for my boiler to come in. I bit the bullet and put a down payment on a Froling FHG 20/30. It will be paired with a 820 gallon American Solartechnics tank with a 100k BTU/hr htx.



Nice! Please document the project and costs. That's a great setup!


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## NateB (Jun 13, 2017)

I have a very similar setup to you, but I have and EKO 40 and I use primary secondary plumbing.  I also bought a heat pump water heater from Tom.  I recommend you tell Tom to through one on your skid before he ships it out.  Are you going to do the plumbing yourself?


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## Marshy (Jun 13, 2017)

My existing hydronic system has an indirect 40 gallon DWH tank that I can use with the boiler/storage system and I have a GE Geospring stand-alone water heater that has been my primary for the last 3-4 years. I suspect that I will continue to use the GE through the summer when it makes less sense to fire the boiler. If I ever get solar I can heat the storage and maybe get rid of the GE. 

I plan to do the installation myself. I plan to construct a 8x12 insulated building detached from the house but within 30' of the storage.


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## NateB (Jun 13, 2017)

Make sure you get a good torch. I went with a cheap nozzle, and had leaks. bought a better torch, and it went much smoother.

You can heat storage with the heat pump from Tom.

I got the best price for fittings from supply house.

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## Highbeam (Jun 13, 2017)

NateB said:


> You can heat storage with the heat pump from Tom.



That heat pump from Tom. I would love to see a thread about the installation and hiccups. I have 1800 SF of slab with pex in it but no boiler, the heat pump would be perfect in my climate. Please????


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## Fred61 (Jun 13, 2017)

NateB said:


> Make sure you get a good torch. I went with a cheap nozzle, and had leaks. bought a better torch, and it went much smoother.
> 
> You can heat storage with the heat pump from Tom.
> 
> ...


Usually the first reason for leaks is prep of the surfaces. The second reason is not the nozzle so much but uneven heating of the joint. Directing the flame at one point, expecting the heat to conduct around the tubing will burn the Flux so the solder will not flow in that overheated area. 

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## NateB (Jun 13, 2017)

I agree. My nozzle was so slow that I always had a cool spot, and the award location of the joints would make me rush and the result were poor. With the higher temperature I could get the joint up to temp and have the solder flow more quickly.

I wish I could find some one to learn from, but everyone I know is to busy.   Thanks for your tips. The guys on hear are always a great help.  

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## Marshy (Jun 13, 2017)

The GE Geospring hot water heater is a stand alone heat pump/water heater. The heat pump that works similarly to a window air conditioner but rejects the heat into the water tank. It's not a ground thermal couple heat pump...

Thanks for the tips on sweating. I don't have a ton of experience doing it but have some. I think I'll buy a nice little map gas torch.


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## Fred61 (Jun 13, 2017)

Be careful with mapp. It's hot. Overheating will anneal the copper and shorten it's life. Not good especially at an ell where there's the most friction. 

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## Marshy (Jun 14, 2017)

I'd like to make most of the plumbing with Pex but the zone valves, isolation valves are all sweated connection so I'm not sure there is a savings.

I've already been on Supply House, great site. I'll likely be placing an order through them. 

Can anyone give me some suggestions on where to source the insulated pex used for direct burial (or name of manufacture)? I'll be using 1-1/4" and have less than 50' run.


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## maple1 (Jun 14, 2017)

Thermopex or Logstor are I think the two most common.

Some guys have been finding it at their local OWB dealer. But a lot of OWB dealers sell the stuff you want to stay away from too.


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