# Humidifier... distributing moisture.



## Bster13 (Oct 27, 2013)

I'm looking to purchase a console humidifier sized to output enough to service the entire house.  I also want a large capacity tank so I don't have to fill it all the time.  With that said... 

Biggest question for me now is "how does humidity distribute around the house?"
Some guys say "put it anywhere, moisture distributes itself" others say "put it where the stove/blower is as air is moving" and still others say "put it as far away from the stove as possible so the moisture travels throughout the entire house to get to the stove. 

Thoughts?


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## madison (Oct 27, 2013)

- Close to the water source for east refilling, not on carpet,  and not on an exterior wall


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## Bster13 (Oct 27, 2013)

So are you saying distributing moisture is not a problem no matter where you place it in the house?

In my case, I can't put it in the middle of the house where the stove is.  I can either put one large unit (preferably... cheaper purchase price and cheaper consumables) at one end of the house, or purchase two units (more $, more consumables) at both ends of the house...


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## Firedancer (Oct 27, 2013)

madison said:


> - and not on an exterior wall




My couch isn't pushed up against the wall. I figured a great spot for a humidifier would be behind it-out of site--between the exterior wall and sofa. 


Guess I need to find another spot.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Firedancer said:


> My couch isn't pushed up against the wall. I figured a great spot for a humidifier would be behind it-out of site--between the exterior wall and sofa.
> 
> 
> Guess I need to find another spot.



Yes, you can place it anywhere in the house and it will humidify the entire house.  I have a two story with four bedrooms upstairs.  The single unit I use is down stairs.  Two smaller units is unneeded and would be a great pain in the butt.

As another stated, against an outside wall isn't the best place, though that's where mine is.  I have to be careful, for when it's really could outside, water sometimes condenses on that exterior wall.

Close to a water source is a great recommendation.

I wouldn't have a problem placing it on a carpet.

Just to be safe, I also add an anti-bacteria agent to the water.

Once you start using the humidifier, it will take a day or two for the house to get humidified.  Also, if you let it go for a day or two, the house will stay humidified, relatively speaking.

Don't over-think this.  Get one big enough and one that meets your criteria and have at it!  With the information you're getting here and experimentation, you'll figure it out.   Consider purchasing a digital thermometer/hygrometer and learn what the appropriate indoor humidity levels should be.  This all depends on what the outside temperature is.  You can over humidify your home, particularly when it gets very cold out.  Relatively speaking, the colder it is outside, the lower your inside humidity should be.


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## Dave A. (Oct 27, 2013)

Malatu said:


> You can over humidify your home, particularly when it gets very cold out. Relatively speaking, the colder it is outside, the lower your inside humidity should be.



Tell me about it.  This area SE PA, Midatlantic region, can be pretty humid.  Most houses I've been in this area with hot water heat (baseboard/radiator/radiant) just don't seem to need humidification in the winter.  And with wood heat it seems the same to me.  No static electic shocks.  Houses around here (other than those with hot air heat which tend to be dryer and might benefit from a little humidifying) that have humidifiers can end up with mold problems in the bathrooms. I think you have to be careful not to overdo it.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Dave A. said:


> Tell me about it.  This area SE PA, Midatlantic region, can be pretty humid.  Most houses I've been in this area with hot water heat (baseboard/radiator/radiant) just don't seem to need humidification in the winter.  And with wood heat it seems the same to me.  No static electic shocks.  Houses around here (other than those with hot air heat which tend to be dryer and might benefit from a little humidifying) that have humidifiers can end up with mold problems in the bathrooms. I think you have to be careful not to overdo it.



Low humidity inside your home during the winter is a function of the difference in outside air temps compared to the inside temps.  Generally speaking, it's not so much a function of how you heat your home.

Here is a link to a string of posts that discuss this.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/humidifier-placement.94544/#post-1247393


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## Bster13 (Oct 27, 2013)

Anyone had a problem with a humidifier ruining books or papers?

Also, they say size the humidifier for the space u want to address.  Well for a simple room that makes perfect sense, but if you have an unopen floor plan, how does it make sense to stick a big console humidifier in a room and expect it to distribute all over the house let along not over saturate the room you have the appliance in?


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> Anyone had a problem with a humidifier ruining books or papers?
> 
> Also, they say size the humidifier for the space u want to address.  Well for a simple room that makes perfect sense, but if you have an unopen floor plan, how does it make sense to stick a big console humidifier in a room and expect it to distribute all over the house let along not over saturate the room you have the appliance in?



You are making an assumption that a humidifier acts like a wood stove and the results you get with a wood stove in a small room...... a room that's too hot at 85 degrees and another room on the other side of the house too cold at 65 degrees.  A humidifier isn't a wood stove and humidity doesn't act like heat.   Humidity is very fluid.  If finds it's way through-out the house... it really does.  I have an old floor plan with lots of rooms and no open spaces.  There is never more than a few percentage points difference in humidity levels thought-out the house.   If there is a significant difference in humidity levels, it's because a particular room is much warmer or much colder.   I know it's hard to get your head around how that happens, but it does.  I'm sure it can be explained in a scientific manner, but not by me.


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## Bster13 (Oct 27, 2013)

Well, yeah I am looking at it like distributing the stove's heat, but it is good to know your personal experience does not work that way.  The current place my lovely wife would like the humidifier is in the sun room which has wide temperature swings (warm when the sunlight gets to it during the day and drops like a rock at night with all that glass).  If the general consensus is that will work just fine it's game on.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> Anyone had a problem with a humidifier ruining books or papers?
> 
> Also, they say size the humidifier for the space u want to address.  Well for a simple room that makes perfect sense, but if you have an unopen floor plan, how does it make sense to stick a big console humidifier in a room and expect it to distribute all over the house let along not over saturate the room you have the appliance in?



It's better to oversize a humidifier but only if it has a humidistat.  The humidistat lets you control the amount of humidity it puts out... like a thermostat does.  You're likely to over saturate the entire house before you over saturate just the room.  And that would be pretty tough to do with just a console unit.  But that might depend on how big the console unit was, how small the house, and how well the house is sealed.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 27, 2013)

My take. A humidifier on the floor with the stove circulates the moisture throughout the house along with the heat through air circulation. If heat goes there, it takes the moisture with it. And if you do what I did two years ago and turn the place into a rain forest because of a humidity related health issue the result ain't cheap. I ended up having all of the roof decking ripped off of this barn this past June to get rid of the attic mold it caused. Yeah I know. Air sealing. Did that too but the second floor humidifiers were the main culprit.

This past winter one humidifier was used on the main floor and the moisture and the heat traveled together.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> Well, yeah I am looking at it like distributing the stove's heat, but it is good to know your personal experience does not work that way.  The current place my lovely wife would like the humidifier is in the sun room which has wide temperature swings (warm when the sunlight gets to it during the day and drops like a rock at night with all that glass).  If the general consensus is that will work just fine it's game on.



If it doesn't work in there you can always move it. 

Do you close that room off at night?  If not, why or how does it get so cold.  If you do close it off, it's not an optimal placement for the unit.


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## CenterTree (Oct 27, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> *Anyone had a problem with a humidifier ruining books or papers?*


When we used to run a humidifier, I had to move all my money into the bank.  My suitcases full of $100 bills started to get musty. 


We don't use one anymore. It was too much work. (cleaning, buying the elements, cleaning, adding water, cleaning).  Did I mention cleaning?

If you go that route be sure to add a little anti-bacterial agent to the water.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 27, 2013)

CenterTree said:


> When we used to run a humidifier, I had to move all my money into the bank. My suitcases full of $100 bills started to get musty.


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## jharkin (Oct 27, 2013)

We have a couple of 2 gal tank size units. Most of year we can get by with just one going, but in the coldest months of Jan/Feb I sometimes run both.

Location:
Physics would say that the moisture will distribute evenly throughout the air of the house overtime... However in all but the tightest houses you constantly have fresh dry air coming in disrupting things.  So in practice I like to put it where it will do the most good - In our case I have it right outside the doors to the bedrooms so that we get the benefit of moist air for our sinuses as we sleep.

How much:
As others have said the humidity loss of the house depends on the temperature differential to outside, and also on how drafty your house is. Since humidity is relative, outside air at 10 degree and 80% humidity will drop to something very low like 20% when it comes inside and warms up.  

For your health (sinuses) and to keep the woodwork from drying out too much around 40-50% is ideal.  If you have poorly insulated walls or windows you could get condensation problems with that humidity level when it gets very cold outside - in that cases there are charts you can follow to set the indoor humidity based on outside temp, colder it is the lower you go.  I had one once, have to go search for it...

Keeping it clean:
I tried lots of things... Cleaning the filters weekly only works so long and honestly I'm not a big fan of adding lots of chemicals or bleach to the water.  Last year I started using these Protec silver based disinfectant cartridges in the tank and they seem to do a good job:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XPT0DK/ref=oh_details_o09_s00_i03?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Bster13 (Oct 27, 2013)

With those cartridges, are you still having to clean every so often or drop it in and forget it?


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

jharkin said:


> We have a couple of 2 gal tank size units. Most of year we can get by with just one going, but in the coldest months of Jan/Feb I sometimes run both.
> 
> Location:
> Physics would say that the moisture will distribute evenly throughout the air of the house overtime... However in all but the tightest houses you constantly have fresh dry air coming in disrupting things.  So in practice I like to put it where it will do the most good - In our case I have it right outside the doors to the bedrooms so that we get the benefit of moist air for our sinuses as we sleep.
> ...



No, no, no!  You can't generalize and say the appropriate indoor humidity level is 40-50%  It all depends on what the temperature is outside.  If it's 5 degrees outside and your humidity level inside is 50%.... you are well into the danger zone for for conditions that promote mold and condensation that will damage to your home.  The low the temperature outside the maximum humidity inside is conversely related. Here is a link that contains a chart to give you ideal indoor humidity levels based on outdoor temperatures.  http://www.improvinghome.com/content/correct-humidity-level


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## jharkin (Oct 27, 2013)

Malatu said:


> No, no, no!  You can't generalize and say the appropriate indoor humidity level is 40-50%  It all depends on what the temperature is outside.  If it's 5 degrees outside and your humidity level inside is 50%.... you are well into the danger zone for for conditions that promote mold and condensation that will damage to your home.  The low the temperature outside the maximum humidity inside is conversely related. Here is a link that contains a chart to give you ideal indoor humidity levels based on outdoor temperatures.  http://www.improvinghome.com/content/correct-humidity-level



Umm that's what I said... Read my whole post .


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> With those cartridges, are you still having to clean every so often or drop it in and forget it?


Cleaning is different than disinfecting.  This might help.... it's a on-line review of the product I found.

*I'm a medical professional and Mom of 3 kids. I researched this product extensively before using it. I thought I would share what I found: A clinical study was conducted in 2006, which showed this product was extremely effective at killing germs and mold in humidifiers (Journal of Water and Health, vol 4.2, 2006). Also, it's shown to be very safe and 100% natural (based on natural silver technology...the active ingredient in the cartridge is actually used in many drinking water filters found at the "big box" stores.) One point to mention: it doesn't remove minerals. If you get stains in your humidifier from iron in your water you'll need a demineralization product for that (or use filtered or distilled water). I use it and highly recommend it.*

I use an anti bacterial product for disinfecting.  I don't clean my filter.  It gets a lot of mineral build up and I just toss it in the trash and install a new one.  I use two a year.  For me it's well worth the cost of 25 bucks per filter.  I used to get sinus infections every winter.  Between drinking more water and using the humidifier, problem solved.

I would suggest the most important thing to address is to monitor the humidity levels in the house and make sure they don't get too high.  And remember "too high" is a function on the outside temperature.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 27, 2013)

I stopped using humidifiers as they are a PIA to be filling all the time. I only get mold in the summer in the basement if i dont run the DE-HUMIDIFIER.
Humidity gets down to 25% here in winter. Cracked the crap out of my mahogany carved table. (That jungle wood like moisture)
If you have ductwork you can get an automatic unit that connects to your water supply and fill itself.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

jharkin said:


> For your health (sinuses) and to keep the woodwork from drying out too much around 40-50% is ideal.



My bad.... I now see your statement ... "there are charts you can follow to set the indoor humidity based on outside temp, colder it is the lower you go".


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## Bster13 (Oct 27, 2013)

The automatic whole house units are nice, but I don't know if they require heat in the duct work to function properly, and in our cases with wood heat it'd just be circulating air.  In my case in particular I have NG boiler with baseboard heat and A/C that was added on later with the exchanger in the uninsulated attic.  When I run the fans for the A/C it sucks the heat out of the place.


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 27, 2013)

I have some big Aquariums in my finished basement 125 Gal and 55 Gal. They help some in winter and boy do they lose water fast when its 25% humidity.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I stopped using humidifiers as they are a PIA to be filling all the time. I only get mold in the summer in the basement if i dont run the DE-HUMIDIFIER.
> Humidity gets down to 25% here in winter. Cracked the crap out of my mahogany carved table. (That jungle wood like moisture)
> If you have ductwork you can get an automatic unit that connects to your water supply and fill itself.



Yes but that's 25% humidity inside, ............you might be surprised at how high the humidity is outside during the winter months.  Depending on how cold it is.... well over 50%... into 60 and 70%  It's counter intuitive but that's why they call it... "relative humidity".


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## Seasoned Oak (Oct 27, 2013)

Malatu said:


> Yes but that's 25% humidity inside, ............you might be surprised at how high the humidity is outside during the winter months.  Depending on how cold it is.... well over 50%... into 60 70%  It's counter intuitive but that's why they call it... "relative humidity".


Once it goes below freezing RH drops fast outside as there not much evaporation goin on. Gets down pretty low around here.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> The automatic whole house units are nice, but I don't know if they require heat in the duct work to function properly, and in our cases with wood heat it'd just be circulating air.  In my case in particular I have NG boiler with baseboard heat and A/C that was added on later with the exchanger in the uninsulated attic.  When I run the fans for the A/C it sucks the heat out of the place.



Water will evaporate as long as its not frozen.  There is heat in 50 degree air, just not as much heat as 80 degree air.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Once it goes below freezing RH drops fast outside as there not much evaporation goin on. Gets down pretty low around here.



Sounds logical but that's not how it works.  Relative humidity is mostly a function of relative air temperatures not whether the air temperature is below freezing.

And actually, the lower the temperature goes below freezing, the relative humidity of that same air goes up!


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## STIHLY DAN (Oct 27, 2013)

I have been around and worked on a million humidifiers, Never have I come across one that had an outdoor temp sensor. They are all set to the humidity needed or wanted. If an operating rm needs 45% humidity, do you think it matters what temp it is outside. I believe you are not understanding your charts.


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## STIHLY DAN (Oct 27, 2013)

Malatu said:


> Water will evaporate as long as its not frozen.  There is heat in 50 degree air, just not as much heat as 80 degree air.


 
Freeze dried.


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## STIHLY DAN (Oct 27, 2013)

Malatu said:


> Sounds logical but that's not how it works.  Relative humidity is mostly a function of relative air temperatures not whether the air temperature is below freezing.
> 
> And actually, the lower the temperature goes below freezing, the relative humidity of that same air goes up!


 
RH is the amount of moisture in the air. Temp comes into play with how much moisture the air can hold. The lower the temp the less moisture it can hold. Dew point


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

STIHLY DAN said:


> I have been around and worked on a million humidifiers, Never have I come across one that had an outdoor temp sensor. They are all set to the humidity needed or wanted. If an operating rm needs 45% humidity, do you think it matters what temp it is outside. I believe you are not understanding your charts.



Outdoor temp sensor?  Not sure what you are talking about.  

Are you suggesting it's ok to keep your indoor humidity at 45% if it's -5 degrees outside?


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## woodgeek (Oct 27, 2013)

I just use this calculator when I am confused...

http://www.dpcalc.org/

I just remember that 50%RH at 70°F is 100% RH at 50°F.  If the dewpoint is over 50°F, and I open a window, it will increase the indoor humidity, and vice versa.


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## Malatu (Oct 27, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> I just use this calculator when I am confused...
> 
> http://www.dpcalc.org/
> 
> I just remember that 50%RH at 70°F is 100% RH at 50°F.  If the dewpoint is over 50°F, and I open a window, it will increase the indoor humidity, and vice versa.



Just book marked it.  Thanks!


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## jdp1152 (Oct 27, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> So are you saying distributing moisture is not a problem no matter where you place it in the house?
> 
> In my case, I can't put it in the middle of the house where the stove is.  I can either put one large unit (preferably... cheaper purchase price and cheaper consumables) at one end of the house, or purchase two units (more $, more consumables) at both ends of the house...


 Yes.  I have two heating systems with a humidifier on main floor.  As long as your house isn't changing air 3x an hour the entire house should find the same level with proper air and moisture management.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 28, 2013)

BrotherBart said:


> My take. A humidifier on the floor with the stove circulates the moisture throughout the house along with the heat through air circulation. If heat goes there, it takes the moisture with it. And if you do what I did two years ago and turn the place into a rain forest because of a humidity related health issue the result ain't cheap. I ended up having all of the roof decking ripped off of this barn this past June to get rid of the attic mold it caused. Yeah I know. Air sealing. Did that too but the second floor humidifiers were the main culprit.
> 
> This past winter one humidifier was used on the main floor and the moisture and the heat traveled together.


The lack of attic ventilation also played a major role in that issue.


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## Retired Guy (Oct 28, 2013)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Freeze dried.





Malatu said:


> Water will evaporate as long as its not frozen.  There is heat in 50 degree air, just not as much heat as 80 degree air.


Water will sublimate when frozen, basically the same


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## JayD (Oct 28, 2013)

I was looking at these I think one would work fine, A little pricy, But I like the idea of not have to fill it.  Jay   http://www.filtersfast.com/Trion-Herrmidifier-707U-Filter.asp


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## Bster13 (Oct 28, 2013)

That is $230 and too ugly for my wife, haha.

This is the research spreadsheet I have put together thus far:









JayD said:


> I was looking at these I think one would work fine, A little pricy, But I like the idea of not have to fill it.  Jay   http://www.filtersfast.com/Trion-Herrmidifier-707U-Filter.asp


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## Firedancer (Oct 28, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> That is $230 and too ugly for my wife, haha.



Whata guy!


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## BrotherBart (Oct 28, 2013)

One of these sitting in the air convection path handles this 2,500 sq. ft. two story barn just fine. And just needs to be filled once a day. Unlike the wood stove. In the Spring I buy the filters at Walmart when they mark'em down to five bucks to clear them out. During the season rinsing them in the sink in some bleach and water extends the filter life a lot.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sunbeam-Cool-Mist-Humidifier/19536346


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## Bster13 (Oct 28, 2013)

I can't find any specs on that sunbeam in terms of what sq footage it claims to cover, nor the gallons per day rating.  Do you recall when you bought it?



BrotherBart said:


> One of these sitting in the air convection path handles this 2,500 sq. ft. two story barn just fine. And just needs to be filled once a day. Unlike the wood stove. In the Spring I buy the filters at Walmart when they mark'em down to five bucks to clear them out. During the season rinsing them in the sink in some bleach and water extends the filter life a lot.
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sunbeam-Cool-Mist-Humidifier/19536346


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## BrotherBart (Oct 28, 2013)

Bought it two years ago. Mine is when they made one with digital readouts and humidity controls. Too many people complained about them turning on and off too often over a one percent boundry so they just have a manual dial now. I don't know what sq. footage it claims to cover. Just what sq. footage it covers in this house. The tank holds a gallon and a half I think.


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## woodgeek (Oct 28, 2013)

Bster13 said:


> I can't find any specs on that sunbeam in terms of what sq footage it claims to cover, nor the gallons per day rating.  Do you recall when you bought it?



square footage ratings would be pretty useless, given the house to house variations in air leakage can be a factor of 3-5, easy.


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## Bster13 (Oct 28, 2013)

That's true.  I was looking at the gallon per day output.  But yeah, each home is different.


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## woodgeek (Oct 28, 2013)

I got a 3 gal/day unit, and it is plenty for a decently airsealed 2300 sq ft place,


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## Bster13 (Oct 28, 2013)

So weird that I am seeing many more gallon/day for same sq footage (see my chart above).

Another reason for oversizing was so that I can run the unit's blower on low and keep things quiet.

But I guess if I buy something that i grossly oversizing, it would foster more mildew and mold.


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## woodgeek (Oct 29, 2013)

I think about it a bit differently.  You have a target RH, mine is 30%, since I have an older house I worry about condensation in wall cavities, etc.  That is plenty to keep the furniture from falling apart, and on the low end of the 'healthy window' 30-50% RH.  No matter what unit you get, you are gonna let it run on a humidistat, and play with the stat setting until you hone in on your target.  If the unit is too small, you won't get there.  If it is too big, it will cycle, and that can be more annoying than a smaller unit cycling less.

I got a cheap unit (with a h-stat) that looks like BB's, and it can 'lift' the RH by about 10-15% over what it would be otherwise, going full out at 3 gal/day.  Before I airsealed, I could put 3 gal a day in the air, and see **no effect** on a hygrometer (maybe a point or two).  I suppose I could've paid a bundle to dump 10+ gallons (?!) a day into the air, but at some point it gets kinda craaazy.


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