# Faint propane smell coming from Superior fireplace



## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 22, 2019)

Hey everybody, I have an old Superior fireplace(approx 20 years) that I decided to fire up for the first time in a year. I'm getting a faint smell of propane from the top when the blower is on, and only on the left side for some reason. This fireplace is vented outside and I also have a carbon monoxide alarm in the living room. I've left it on for a few hours and its still there, just a very faint smell in the living room. I don't smell it in the bottom compartment where the valve and controls are. I only smell it when its turned on and in the top compartment where the air is blowing out. Is it possible there could be a pinhole somewhere in the actual fireplace? I had the glass door off and I'm positive I put it back on correctly, but like I said, it seems to be coming from the blower air. I'd also like to add that I took out all the logs at one point to clean the thermocouple and thermopile and now the flame seems to scorching the side of the log and leaving a black residue which I never noticed before.. is it possible that could be cause?

I have two pictures attached. One is of the top vent where I'm smelling the propane and the other is from inside the fireplace, where I'm thinking it may be leaking.  Thanks in advance!


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## wooduser (Feb 22, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> I took out all the logs at one point to clean the thermocouple and thermopile and now the flame seems to scorching the side of the log and leaving a black residue which I never noticed before.. i




The black stuff is soot,  caused by flame impingement on the logs.  I'd take the logs out and reset them again.  There are probably indent on the bottom of the logs to aid in setting the logs correctly so that the flames wont impinge on them.

If you look carefully while the burner is on,  you can probably see the flame impingement on the log(s).

You don't want to see soot.  Where there's soot,  there's also carbon monoxide being produced, but it's probably being vented up the flue with the other combustion products.

But that is unlikely to be a propane like odor.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 22, 2019)

Thanks for responding, I actually had a look at the log placement again after making that post and the logs are actually in the indent, its the small logs on top that the flames are touching but they rest on dowels on the main logs, so i'm not sure how I can make them avoid the flame. Maybe the flame always touched them, i just never took notice.

My main concern from my original post is the propane smell though...


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## wooduser (Feb 22, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> I'm getting a faint smell of propane from the top when the blower is on, and only on the left side for some reason. This fireplace is vented outside and I also have a carbon monoxide alarm in the living room. I've left it on for a few hours and its still there, just a very faint smell in the living room. I don't smell it in the bottom compartment where the valve and controls are. I only smell it when its turned on and in the top compartment where the air is blowing out.




Well,  guessing doesn't really cut it,  but my guess is that you have a leak in the bottom compartment of the fireplace where the gas valve is.

Propane burned by the burners is very unlikely to retain a propane odor,  so the gas controls are the likely source of the problem.  Furthermore, any leak inside the firebox is very likely going to be carried up the chimney by the draft created by the main burner.  By contrast,  a leak from the gas controls will be carried around the outside of the firebox by the draft created by the warm air flow out the top of the fireplace.

(The inside of the firebox is sealed away from the outside of the firebox)

If you want to try to check that out yourself,  use a solution of 50% dishwashing liquid and 50% water,  and paint the solution on the controls and piping in the bottom of the fireplace with a 1/2" or so paint brush.,  or you can use a spray bottle.  Get those part good and soaked with soapy solution.

Look for VERY SMALL bubbles that a leak can produce.

I'd try that with the pilot light lit and the main burner off first.  If you don't find a leak,  turn the main burner on and try again.

Actually,  try several times.  It takes some practice and patience to find the very small leaks you are describing.  Keep painting that soapy solution on.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 22, 2019)

Thanks again for your help. You think the leak is in the bottom even though I don't smell anything down there when its running? You also said the propane burned by the burner is very unlikely to retain a propane odor. When I took the glass cover off to inspect the logs, I lit the fireplace and I was getting a very strong smell of propane.. that is whats making me think their is a pin hole in the frame or its leaking through the gasket on the glass cover. Is that possible?


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 22, 2019)

Actually you're probably right about the leak in the bottom. I just tried turning on the pilot light without the blower or flame and I can smell a little propane down there where the gas valve is. Is that normal? or like you said, is it a good chance that's where the smell is originating from?


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## wooduser (Feb 22, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> . Is that normal?



No.


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## wooduser (Feb 22, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> When I took the glass cover off to inspect the logs, I lit the fireplace and I was getting a very strong smell of propane..




Well,  if you were lighting the pilot,  you might get a small of=odor from gas escaping before it's lit.  

But describe in more detail when you were finding and what you were doing.  Basically,  you could get a leak from the pilot burner tubing when the pilot is lit or being lit.  

You could get  propane leaking when the main burner is turned on from the gas going to the main burner when the main burner is lit.

Please describe in more detail what you were noticing and just what you were doing when your were noticing it.  A strong enough gas leak would be noticeable even when the glass is in place.


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## Millbilly (Feb 22, 2019)

Honestly I'd shut the fireplace off and shut the service shut off and call a pro for this one.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 22, 2019)

Ok I turned the pilot light on and sprayed soap and water on all the fittings and connections and I'm seeing small bubbles where the the thermocouple screws into the main assembly. I put a wrench on it but its already pretty tight, I'm unscrewed it entirely (with the gas shut off of course) and re-tightened it but there are still bubbles. I guess the solution is to replace the thermocouple? or is there something I could put on the threads, like teflon tape? Thanks again for the soap and water suggestion


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 22, 2019)

Millbilly said:


> Honestly I'd shut the fireplace off and shut the service shut off and call a pro for this one.




I take it you're not a DIY guy


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## Millbilly (Feb 22, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> I take it you're not a DIY guy


No. I am. But you sound dangerous doing this imo.  And gas does not flow out of the thermo couple fitting.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 22, 2019)

Millbilly said:


> No. I am. But you sound dangerous doing this imo.  And gas does not flow out of the thermo couple fitting.



It doesn't huh? Well thats funny because I was just staring at a small leak on mine about 10 minutes ago. Please if you are not going to offer any help, just move on from this thread.


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## Millbilly (Feb 22, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> It doesn't huh? Well thats funny because I was just staring at a small leak on mine about 10 minutes ago. Please if you are not going to offer any help, just move on from this thread.


Goodluck


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## chrisarrington (Feb 22, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> It doesn't huh? Well thats funny because I was just staring at a small leak on mine about 10 minutes ago. Please if you are not going to offer any help, just move on from this thread.



No it doesn't. I replace about 200 of them a year. If you have gas escaping where the thermocouple actually screws in to the valve then you have a huge issue.


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## wooduser (Feb 23, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> I'm seeing small bubbles where the the thermocouple screws into the main assembly. I put a wrench on it but its already pretty tight,





Look again.  You can't get any bobbles from the fitting for the thermocouple,  but you may well get bubbles from the 1/4" aluminum tubing that goes from the electric gas valve to the pilot burner.  That's pretty much the #1 spot to have such a leak.  

So verify that's where the leak is coming from/

If it is,  you'll have to summon up the MORAL COURAGE to tighten that pilot tube fitting with a wrench,  a little at a time,  until the leak goes away. Say,  1/8the of a turn at a time.   In most cases,  that will solve the problem.  

It's possible but unlikely that you'd need to unscrew and remove the pilot tubing compression fitting from the gas valve and start tightening it again.  

Congratulations!  You've already done the hardest part,  finding a small leak like that.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks again wooduser. I haven't touched it since last night but I have a couple pictures attached. You can see on one of the pictures where the actual leak is. I'm still afraid of overtightening it. I don't want to cause any further damage but i will try if you think that will take care of the leak. Is there anything I can put on those threads to get a better seal, like a teflon tape for gas lines?

Edit: I also made sure to push in on the tubing while i was tightening the screw but the leak is still there


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## wooduser (Feb 23, 2019)

That's actually a larger than usual leak.  Great pictures,  incidentally!

That is,  incidentally,  the pilot tubing.

There is a high probability that you just need to tighten up the fitting until the leak goes away and then stop tightening.

However,  the way the pilot tubing is bent might impair the ability of the compression fitting to turn on the pilot tubing to tighten up.

If the pilot tubing itself starts to turn,  rather than the brass compression fitting turning,  that's the point to stop.  If that happens,  the pilot tubing may need to be replaced.  If the leak continues but the pilot tubing is turning,  that will further damage the pilot tubing,  and the likely way to fix that is to replace the pilot tubing and the brass compression fittings.

But the odds are good that you can fix it by tightening.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 23, 2019)

Good stuff man, that did it. I tightened it a bit more and the leaks are gone. Couple more questions for you that I hope you don't mind answering for me as you've been a great help. I found that the flame doesn't always stay on, but some days it will stay on for hours. Could it be a back draft from the vent to the outside or is my thermocouple or thermopile on its way out?  I cleaned them off with some steel wool in the past which I found helped a bit but sometimes, its like the fireplace is struggling to stay lit.

My second question is: what are those fire logs made from? One of them has a crack and every time I move it, some dust gets left behind on the floor.. just wondering if its harmful?


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## wooduser (Feb 23, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> My second question is: what are those fire logs made from? One of them has a crack and every time I move it, some dust gets left behind on the floor.. just wondering if its harmful?


 

I don't know.  You might be able to get a material safety data sheet on the logs from the manufacturer if you give them  the model and serial number of your fireplace.

I'd seriously consider replacing the damaged log.  It's not going to get any better on its own,  and you probably don't want many years of useful life from a fireplace with a deteriorating log.  Replace it now while the part is probably available from the manufacturer.



thisisnotagoodname said:


> I found that the flame doesn't always stay on, but some days it will stay on for hours. C




Please describe in detail what you mean by this.  It sounds like the main burner isn't staying lit reliably,  and shuts off sometimes when the burner is still switched on.  Is that right?


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 24, 2019)

Yep, pilot light turns on no problem and then when I flick on the switch for the main burner, there is a solid flame for about a few minutes, sometimes longer. Eventually the flame weakens (see pictures) and around this time, it will either go back to full flame again or it will just go out completely, or just keep flickering like in the pictures.  Does the pilot light always have to touch the thermocouple and thermopile even when the main burner is going?


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## wooduser (Feb 24, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> It doesn't huh? Well thats funny because I was just staring at a small leak on mine about 10 minutes ago. Please if you are not going to offer any help, just move on from this thread.




That's right, gas doesn't leak out of a thermocouple fitting.  I expect there was confusion between the thermocouple fitting and the 1/4" aluminum tubing that supplies gas to the pilot light.  If there's a leak,  it's very common for it to be of the brass compression fitting that fits the pilot tubing into the gas valve.


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## wooduser (Feb 24, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> Does the pilot light always have to touch the thermocouple and thermopile even when the main b




Yes,  it does,  the heat of the pilot flame on the thermopile provides the millivolts needed to turn on the main burner gas vaklve and to hold it open reliably.  If the pilot flame is marginal,  there may not be enough voltage to keep the main burner gas valve open reliably,  which can produce the symptoms you describe.


If your pilot flame isn't engulfing the thermopile with a flame like a small blue blowtorch,  you probably have a dirty pilot burner orifice that needs to be cleaned.


If you think that might be the problem,  describe your pilot burner flame in detail.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 25, 2019)

wooduser said:


> That's right, gas doesn't leak out of a thermocouple fitting.  I expect there was confusion between the thermocouple fitting and the 1/4" aluminum tubing that supplies gas to the pilot light.  If there's a leak,  it's very common for it to be of the brass compression fitting that fits the pilot tubing into the gas valve.



Yep, there was some confusion there. At first, I thought that line was the thermocouple, but a couple of users that posted (not you) weren't very helpful in clearing that up for me.

When I first light it, I'm getting a nice blue flame from the pilot burner.. but it starts to flicker a little and occasionally lose contact with the thermocouple and thermopile. I'm not sure if its because of a draft coming down from the vent or like you said, a dirty pilot burner orifice. I'll clean it all up and hopefully its all good after that. Thanks again sir


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## wooduser (Feb 25, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> When I first light it, I'm getting a nice blue flame from the pilot burner.. but it starts to flicker a little and occasionally lose contact with the thermocouple and thermopile. I'm not sure if its because of a draft coming down from the vent or like you said, a dirty pilot burner orifice. I'll clean it all up and hopefully its all good after that. Thanks again sir




Does this flickering occur when the main burner is lit?  If so,  do the flames change color or the pilot burner or main burner flames become more thready and perhaps lift off the burner itself?  If so,  those are symptoms of a shortage of combustion air,  which can have a number of possible causes.

In particular,  any signs of black soot forming on any part or the glass?  That would be a danger signal of poor combustion and carbon monoxide production.


Still,  a pilot orifice that needs cleaning is the most common cause of a pilot that's not working properly.  To clean it,  you need to remove the screws that hold the pilot burner to the stove or burner,  and gently bend the pilot tubing out so you can work on the pilot burner.

Use a small wrench to loosen the brass compression fitting that holds the pilot tubing in the pilot burner.  When you pull the comopression fitting out,  the pilot orifice will probably just drop into your hand  ----it sits in the pilot burner at the end of the pilot tubing.

Some pilot orifices can be cleaned with a wire from a wire brush.  Others,  such as the bell shaped pilot orifice made by Robertshaw,  have holes too small for that and need to be cleaned out with some compressed air. Some debris can be too small to see.

In a few cases,  pilot orifices can't be successfully cleaned and need to be replaced if cleaning doesn't solve the problem or create good pilot flame characteristics.  I used to replace bell shaped Robertshaw pilot orifices with new ones because they can be hard to clean,  but they would be worth a try since you wont have a replacement handy.

Reassemble after cleaning the orifice.


Cleaning the pilot is a useful skill to have,  since dirty pilots are a very common cause of fireplaces that quit working.  Cleaning the pilot every 1-3 years is really ordinary maintenance to avoid  problems.


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 26, 2019)

Those are some great tips, thanks. I decided to fire it up again last night without cleaning anything and it stayed lit all night with no issues. The flame on the main burner was consistent too, no flickering. I really believe my problems with the flame are due to a draft coming in the vent, maybe when the wind is blowing a certain direction. You ever hear of that being an issue?  Either way, at least its working now and I don't smell propane anymore.

I'll leave it alone for now and if it starts acting up again, I'll clean the orifice.


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## wooduser (Feb 26, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> . I really believe my problems with the flame are due to a draft coming in the vent, maybe when the wind is blowing a certain direction. You ever hear of that being an issue?




No  ----but you could be right.  Your ability to observe what is happening and the tioming of when it happens is a real advantage over what I can offer.


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## wooduser (Feb 26, 2019)

thisisnotagoodname said:


> When I first light it, I'm getting a nice blue flame from the pilot burner.. but it starts to flicker a little and occasionally lose contact with the thermocouple and thermopile.




A pilot or main burner flame that lifts off the burner is a common feature of flames that lack sufficient combustion air to burn properly.  Look and think carefully to decide if you think this might be a problem


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## thisisnotagoodname (Feb 27, 2019)

I had it running last night too with no issues. I did notice the flame lift off the burner when I posted those pictures but its been fine now for two nights, so who knows. Maybe it was a draft causing my issues. Anyways, I have a carbon monoxide detector in the same room as the fireplace to be on the safe side.


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## wooduser (Feb 27, 2019)

A lifting flame needs to be corrected,  if it's actually happening.    Lifting flames are caused by a shortage of combustion air,  which impairs combustion and often results in a change in color of the flame to a deeper blue.  

If bad enough,  the flames become thready and can become snuffed out altogether.

So keep an eye on that to see if it's actually happening.


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## wooduser (Apr 18, 2019)

From the picture and the description of the symptoms,  it looks like a shortage of combustion air is developing.

When that occurs,  you might try opening a window to see if the thready flame goes away.  There are several possible causes of that kind of problem.


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