# Our wood stove installation denied



## gardenheather (Nov 30, 2021)

We recently installed a vintage wood burning stove, and because it had no UL listing we went by the guidelines found at nasd online. I printed that information out, along with some other information I had researched. I highlighted all of the specs we were going by and I put it in with our permit application. The permit was granted, and the inspector just came and did not pass it. He says that he has no specs to judge it by, no way to know what size pipe it should need (the hole is 6 in so 6 in I guess?) He says he has no way to know if the chimney is too big or too small inside and that I should see that it's drafting into the room. I did not see any such thing. At any rate, he did not pass it, and the one thing that was keeping my son warm now cannot be legally used because if everything burns down the insurance won't cover anything. He lives with baseboard heat and he cannot afford it and neither can we afford to help him. The only advice the man gave me was to look up the model number and do some research on it to see if I can find specs. I cannot find any. The only thing I have is Kings Stove and Range Co., Sheffield, Alabama, Sun Oak, 17-c. That's everything I can see on the stove. Can somebody please help me? We put all this money and work into this, into getting it just as the specs were online, and we cannot afford to undo it and buy all new. If we could afford that, we could just pay his electric bill. I'm so desperate.


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## begreen (Nov 30, 2021)

What specifications were provided to the inspector? What is the nasd site? The specs that should have been provided are in NFPA 211.

This antique is not going to have documentation. From what I can tell it is a coal stove.  It sounds like the shortest path would be to change the stove to a wood stove that is UL tested, has documentation, a 6" flue, and is appropriately sized for the location.


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## begreen (Nov 30, 2021)

Is this the stove? Hopefully complete and in better condition.


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## gardenheather (Nov 30, 2021)

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/fnr/FNR-100.html 
And 








						NASD - Wood Stove Installation and Operation
					

WHAT SHOULD I PLACE A STOVE ON? For heaters set on legs or pedestals that provide not less than 6 inches of ventilated space beneath the fire chamber or base of the appliance, use closely spaced solid masonry bricks or blocks not less than 2 inches thick. The top surface of the bricks should be cov




					nasdonline.org
				



Were the links I used for specs to install. 
Picture attached.


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## gardenheather (Nov 30, 2021)

A complete picture


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## begreen (Nov 30, 2021)

Thanks for the pictures and links.  They help a lot. The NASD info has some things right and some things wrong. The inspector needs code-specific references, not a professor's summary.
Why was that wall behind the stove built out so far? What is the construction of it? Is it wooden studded with something on the face? What are the pass-through construction details of the stovepipe to the chimney? What is being used for a chimney outside?


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## gardenheather (Nov 30, 2021)

My husband extended that area of the wall, that's where my son is storing his wood. The chimney is the original existing chimney that was built to vent the original kerosene heater. That section of pipe going into the chimney is double walled, surrounded with high heat concrete. The rest is single walled. There is 26g steel sheeting on the walls with 1 inch ceramic spacers. The original walls and ceiling are plaster and lathe, the built out section is just regular studs and drywall. He was ok with everything except not having a UL listing and no specs. He says the chimney could be too big or small for this stove and he can't possibly know.


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## bholler (Nov 30, 2021)

Technically it is against code to do a new install of an unlisted stove according to us mechanical code.   But that is not what he is calling out really.  I would ask him if NFPA 211 specs would work.   Is the chimney lined?  Was that liner inspected?  What type of double wall pipe is it and how much space is around it to combustible materials?


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## gardenheather (Nov 30, 2021)

bholler said:


> Technically it is against code to do a new install of an unlisted stove according to us mechanical code.   But that is not what he is calling out really.  I would ask him if NFPA 211 specs would work.   Is the chimney lined?  Was that liner inspected?  What type of double wall pipe is it and how much space is around it to combustible materials?


It isn't lined, it's an 8" flue. If we put in a 6" liner, do you think that would work?


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## bholler (Nov 30, 2021)

gardenheather said:


> It isn't lined, it's an 8" flue. If we put in a 6" liner, do you think that would work?


So it has no liner at all?


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## gardenheather (Nov 30, 2021)

bholler said:


> So it has no liner at all?


Well, the flue pipe is intact, the original clay one.


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## gardenheather (Nov 30, 2021)

I forgot to answer, the pipe going into the flue, from about 4" out from the wall, is double walled, and there is 2" of high heat concrete between the double walled and the combustibles. The specs for that pipe said 2".


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## bholler (Nov 30, 2021)

gardenheather said:


> Well, the flue pipe is intact, the original clay one.


Ok so it is lined


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## gardenheather (Dec 1, 2021)

bholler said:


> Ok so it is lined


I'm sorry I thought you meant did we install a liner. One of those stainless steel liners is what I was thinking. But yes, the flu is intact it is 8 in.


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## coaly (Dec 5, 2021)

gardenheather said:


> We recently installed a vintage wood burning stove, and because it had no UL listing we went by the guidelines found at nasd online. I printed that information out, along with some other information I had researched. I highlighted all of the specs we were going by and I put it in with our permit application. The permit was granted, and the inspector just came and did not pass it. He says that he has no specs to judge it by, no way to know what size pipe it should need (the hole is 6 in so 6 in I guess?) He says he has no way to know if the chimney is too big or too small inside and that I should see that it's drafting into the room. I did not see any such thing. At any rate, he did not pass it, and the one thing that was keeping my son warm now cannot be legally used because if everything burns down the insurance won't cover anything. He lives with baseboard heat and he cannot afford it and neither can we afford to help him. The only advice the man gave me was to look up the model number and do some research on it to see if I can find specs. I cannot find any. The only thing I have is Kings Stove and Range Co., Sheffield, Alabama, Sun Oak, 17-c. That's everything I can see on the stove. Can somebody please help me? We put all this money and work into this, into getting it just as the specs were online, and we cannot afford to undo it and buy all new. If we could afford that, we could just pay his electric bill. I'm so desperate.


I don't see how they could even start the permit process without a UL Listed stove being installed. Michigan state is under 2015 International Mechanical Code that requires all appliances to be UL Listed. This would give the inspector what he needs to know for installation instead of asking you to find all this information on an antique stove that doesn't exist. He should have said, a UL approved stove with instructions gives all the criteria needed, and you need that type stove with the instructions. All he had to say is there is no UL label affixed to the stove.

Does the wall shield have an open space top and bottom for an intake and exhaust of heated air?

Burning wood, that stove is going to need to be be fed every couple hours. It needs coal. You really need an affordable wood stove such as an Englander found at the big box stores. The much reduced clearances make installation much easier, but should still have a 6 inch liner all the way, and probably needs to be insulated due to improper chimney clearances anyway.

Sometimes I'd like to ask these inspectors if their jurisdiction is hiring.


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## NorMi (Dec 5, 2021)

I'm sorry that you may not be able to use the antique stove with the inspector, that is a bummer.  I don't know if this will be helpful, but the cheapest new UL/EPA stove I have seen is a US1269E, they carry at tractor supply for $299.   They also do no interest for 6 months on purchases if you can get the TS credit card, if it would help to spread out the cost.  https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...stove-900-sq-ft-small-cast-iron-epa-certified

*They are not a very good stove, but you won't freeze to death with one, and they are legal.  A friend had one but he replaced it.


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## clancey (Dec 5, 2021)

Gardenheath: A bummer... But I took copies of the two assorted stoves the Englander Stoves as well as the Tractorsupply stove... The New Englander is a nice stove and you could see the wood burning which is very relaxing and pleasant and it is "in my opinion" because of the ambiance of it worth four to five hundred more...You can get a credit card from Home Depot as well as there would be a rebate on it because of its EPA Qualifications I believe clancey...


			https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/us-stove-wood-stove-900-sq-ft-small-cast-iron-epa-certified
		






						Englander - Wood Stoves - Freestanding Stoves - The Home Depot
					

Get free shipping on qualified Englander Wood Stoves products or Buy Online Pick Up in Store today in the Heating, Venting & Cooling Department.



					www.homedepot.com


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## gardenheather (Dec 5, 2021)

coaly said:


> I don't see how they could even start the permit process without a UL Listed stove being installed. Michigan state is under 2015 International Mechanical Code that requires all appliances to be UL Listed. This would give the inspector what he needs to know for installation instead of asking you to find all this information on an antique stove that doesn't exist. He should have said, a UL approved stove with instructions gives all the criteria needed, and you need that type stove with the instructions. All he had to say is there is no UL label affixed to the stove.
> 
> Does the wall shield have an open space top and bottom for an intake and exhaust of heated air?
> 
> ...


Yes that's what we thought t


NorMi said:


> I'm sorry that you may not be able to use the antique stove with the inspector, that is a bummer.  I don't know if this will be helpful, but the cheapest new UL/EPA stove I have seen is a US1269E, they carry at tractor supply for $299.   They also do no interest for 6 months on purchases if you can get the TS credit card, if it would help to spread out the cost.  https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...stove-900-sq-ft-small-cast-iron-epa-certified
> 
> *They are not a very good stove, but you won't freeze to death with one, and they are legal.  A friend had one but he replaced it.





coaly said:


> I don't see how they could even start the permit process without a UL Listed stove being installed. Michigan state is under 2015 International Mechanical Code that requires all appliances to be UL Listed. This would give the inspector what he needs to know for installation instead of asking you to find all this information on an antique stove that doesn't exist. He should have said, a UL approved stove with instructions gives all the criteria needed, and you need that type stove with the instructions. All he had to say is there is no UL label affixed to the stove.
> 
> Does the wall shield have an open space top and bottom for an intake and exhaust of heated air?
> 
> ...


I forgot to say, the heat shield does have the opening at the top and bottom for venting.


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## gardenheather (Dec 5, 2021)

NorMi said:


> I'm sorry that you may not be able to use the antique stove with the inspector, that is a bummer.  I don't know if this will be helpful, but the cheapest new UL/EPA stove I have seen is a US1269E, they carry at tractor supply for $299.   They also do no interest for 6 months on purchases if you can get the TS credit card, if it would help to spread out the cost.  https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/p...stove-900-sq-ft-small-cast-iron-epa-certified
> 
> *They are not a very good stove, but you won't freeze to death with one, and they are legal.  A friend had one but he replaced it.


Thank you, I love that stove but it was too long for the hearth we already had put down.


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## gardenheather (Dec 5, 2021)

This is the new stove we bought. We ordered a chimney liner kit as well, from a different place, and it didn't come with a tee. Now we're trying to figure out if tees are interchangable or of we have to go brand specific. This is all new to us and very frustrating. 😥


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## clancey (Dec 5, 2021)

Looks like a very nice stove and I cannot help you with the tee question but someone might know on here...All this will pass and you will be sitting in front of it with a favorite drink and enjoying the warm air especially with the Michigan cold...lol  Looks good..Other people need to help you with the hard questions at least too hard for me...old mrs clancey..


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## NorMi (Dec 6, 2021)

Usually with single wall pipe it all fits up ok, with only minor tweaking required.  With any double wall all bets are off, the interior diameter is usually ok but the outside diameter/air space dimensions are not really standardized I don't think.


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## EbS-P (Dec 6, 2021)

gardenheather said:


> View attachment 287111
> 
> This is the new stove we bought. We ordered a chimney liner kit as well, from a different place, and it didn't come with a tee. Now we're trying to figure out if tees are interchangable or of we have to go brand specific. This is all new to us and very frustrating. 😥


You are wanting to connect a T to the end of the liner?


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## kennyp2339 (Dec 6, 2021)

gardenheather said:


> We ordered a chimney liner kit as well, from a different place, and it didn't come with a tee.


No T should be needed, your piping the stove from the stoves flue collar straight up to a 90 and into the pre-lined chimney.


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## 71montess (Dec 8, 2021)

begreen said:


> What specifications were provided to the inspector? What is the nasd site? The specs that should have been provided are in NFPA 211.
> 
> This antique is not going to have documentation. From what I can tell it is a coal stove.  It sounds like the shortest path would be to change the stove to a wood stove that is UL tested, has documentation, a 6" flue, and is appropriately sized for the location.


I agree, and you can find used stoves at reasonable prices.


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## MR. GLO (Dec 10, 2021)

I would install the new stove with double wall pipe and new liner (a must and insulation is a plus...) in chimney and a cap.  But I also would follow the clearances to combustibles walls in the manual.  Then the inspector can't really complain except maybe for the distance between top of pipe and where platers is not covered with your wall  spacers and the thimble adapter area.

Your inspector saved you a lot of headaches by forcing you to get a new stove.


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## Sono (Jan 25, 2022)

The so called T is 


kennyp2339 said:


> No T should be needed, your piping the stove from the stoves flue collar straight up to a 90 and into the pre-lined chimney.


actually the end of the liner to pull it down then the 90* part has a special strap to grab and tighten to that section, then your single wall pipe connects to that ( youtube videos will show all this....


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## kennyp2339 (Jan 26, 2022)

Sono said:


> The so called T is
> 
> actually the end of the liner to pull it down then the 90* part has a special strap to grab and tighten to that section, then your single wall pipe connects to that ( youtube videos will show all this....


Yes, if you have a stainless steel liner within the existing chimney, what we were referring to was masonry with no stainless steel liner, so no T is needed since there already is a terracotta lined crock and chimney


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## Sono (Jan 26, 2022)

kennyp2339 said:


> Yes, if you have a stainless steel liner within the existing chimney, what we were referring to was masonry with no stainless steel liner, so no T is needed since there already is a terracotta lined crock and chimney


from my understanding they bought the liner so they will need this.


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## kennyp2339 (Jan 26, 2022)

Sono said:


> from my understanding they bought the liner so they will need this.


WOW I see I missed the post with the op saying that they are installing a stainless-steel liner, sorry about that.


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