# Smoking problen with Consolidated Dutchwest FA224ccl Small



## awfireman (Oct 19, 2007)

I recently installed my dads old CD 224ccl small convection woodstove in my house. After trying many different things includeng replacing the 6" stove pipe and extending it 5 feet for better draft I am still getting smoke from the doors (both front and side) when loading. The smoke stops when door is 2-3 inches from being totally closed. The stove has no problem getting to temp. and runs well but smokes no matter how hot the fire is. Although I can open one of the front doors when the stove is at temp., but when I open the other door smoke comes pouring out. The side loading door smokes all the time when open more that 2-3 inches. 

Could this be a problem with the flue collar being installed wrong?  My dad does not remember if the collar was going straight up or going horizontal attached to an 90' elbow .The back of the stove were the the flue collar attaches is at a 45 angle and the  collar can be attached horizontal (so it needs to be connected to a 90 or t ) or vertically (in which the stove will have to be pushed in further to the chimney hole and just connect with to elbow or tee). I have the flue collar going horizontal from the back of the stove about 13 inches then attached to a "t" going straight up through the chimney with 6 stove inch pipe. 

Maybe some can help me fix/diagnos this problem?

Thanks - Fireman


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## BrotherBart (Oct 19, 2007)

It has been twenty years since I saw one but every Dutchwest I saw back in the day required an eight inch pipe for exactly that reason.


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## stoveguy2esw (Oct 19, 2007)

have you tried cracking a close by window or door a few minutes before reloading , could be  a little negative pressure


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## Gooserider (Oct 19, 2007)

Could be negative pressure as Mike suggested, I'd try the window trick first.  

Next might be to set the collar up so that the pipe is vertical - Horizontal (which should have a slight upwards slope BTW) runs are not good, and each 90* bend gives an effective FIVE FOOT reduction in your effective stack height.  

I would also make sure that your stack is very clean, as creosote buildup reduces your effective diameter, and that all connector joints are sealed tight so that the ONLY way that chimney can draft is to pull through the firebox.  Obviously you also want to be free from other kinks, or restrictions.  If there is a damper in the pipe, (not on the stove itself) try removing it, and do anything else you can to clean up the flow through the chimney.

Hopefully those changes will help, because the last resort of going to an 8" pipe gets expensive...

Gooserider


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## awfireman (Oct 19, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestions, have tried them all but still getting smoke. Changng to a 8 inch pipe will help the flow and reduce my smoke problem?? Can anyone track down a owners manual for this stove?I am willing to pay a few dollars for it. 

Thanks again, 

Fireman


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## BrotherBart (Oct 19, 2007)

Is this smoke only when the cat is engaged or does it happen with the cat in bypass position also? I don't know where you would find a manual but a parts breakdown and available parts can be found here:

http://www.blackswanhome.com/fa224-ccl.html


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## awfireman (Oct 19, 2007)

Hi Brotherbart,

I didnt know there is a cat by-pass on the stove. There is 3 dampers, the main on the upper right side of the stove,one on th siude door and one on the ash pan door. Where would the by-pass be located on this stove? Also, do you think 6 inch pipe is to small for this sotve. I have no problem brining the stove up to temprature just the billowing smoke when I open any of the doors.

Once again I appreciate your help.

Fireman


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2007)

Can you post a few pictures of the stove and flue pipe installation? That will save some guesswork.

You can request a copy of the manual from Vermont Castings by mail.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 19, 2007)

awfireman said:
			
		

> Hi Brotherbart,
> 
> I didnt know there is a cat by-pass on the stove. There is 3 dampers, the main on the upper right side of the stove,one on th siude door and one on the ash pan door. Where would the by-pass be located on this stove? Also, do you think 6 inch pipe is to small for this sotve. I have no problem brining the stove up to temprature just the billowing smoke when I open any of the doors.
> 
> ...



The bypass is a steel plate that you crank open to divert gasses passed the cat during start-up and then you close it to light off the cat once the stove is up to temp. Look at the parts explosion in the link above for location of the bypass.

Member Corie should be along soon. He is the DutchWest Federal Airtight guru around here.


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## awfireman (Oct 20, 2007)

Here are a few pictures of the options for the flue collar. I might have to make several post because of the size of the pictures.The picture with it going horizontally was connected to a 6" inch tee going up to the Chimney. I have not tried the vertical installation yet but getting ready to try it, thats why its taken apart. Will wait until I hear back from some of you.

Thanks again - Fireman

I might have to make several post because of the size of the pictures.


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## awfireman (Oct 20, 2007)

Here are a few more pictures


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## Todd (Oct 20, 2007)

Sounds like you are reloading with the bypass closed and the cat still engaged. I forget to do this a few times with my cat stove and smoke comes billowing out right away. The cat is probably plugged with fly ash since you didn't know about the bypass.


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## awfireman (Oct 20, 2007)

So the main damper is the by-pass as well. Correct me if I am wrong - All the way closed=cat. engaged. All the way open=cat by-pass open. If this is correct I have be operating correctly with the by-pass open and it is still smoking. I think this might have something to do with the flue collar. Hopinfg after veiwing the pictures we find a solution.


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## begreen (Oct 20, 2007)

aw, how tall is the chimney?


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## awfireman (Oct 20, 2007)

The Chimney is probably 18 ft and the stove pipe extends 5 ft beyond the chimney.


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## begreen (Oct 20, 2007)

With 23 ft of pipe, that should draft OK, assuming negative pressure in the house is not an issue. With the pipe not connected can you see if the bypass plate is operating correctly? Is there a clear shot from the firebox to the flue with the bypass open?


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## awfireman (Oct 20, 2007)

Yes, there is a clear shot to the flue with the by-pass open. I have opened the window in the LR but still getting smoke, so its noit negative pressure. Might have to try it with the flue collar going vertical. Maybe this will help??


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## begreen (Oct 20, 2007)

Might help, certainly worth a try. I still would find out from VC if the stove is designed to run with 8" pipe.

edit - FWIW, there is one posted on the Boston craigslist that says it's 6" also:
http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/hsh/453785844.html


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## seaken (Oct 20, 2007)

The 224CCL was designed for a 6" chimney. If the stove is smoking with the damper OPEN you have problems with either the chimney, the house, or the fuel. It will be hard to diagnose over the internet but with patience you will probably figure out which is the culprit.

You mentioned opening a window and subsequently dismissed negative pressure. Bear in mind that the open window trick is not a definitive test to eliminate house pressurization as a problem. It make take a few other tests to completely eliminate house stack effect.

You did not mention explicitly how your fireplace chimney is being used. Do you have a full 6" liner all the way to the top? Did you squeeze the 6" pipe to get it through the damper, or use an otherwise "ovalized" piece? What size was the oval? Is there a block off plate? Insulation? Is the fireplace on an outside wall of the house? Any faces of the FP exposed to the outside?

Are you getting a full bed of red-hot coals? What species of wood? Too wet? Too dry? Split, or full logs?

You can get a manual from VC. If you need help you can PM me and I can get it for you.

Can your dad come over and notice if it is working differently for you than it was for him?

Sean


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## awfireman (Oct 21, 2007)

Sean,

Thanks for responding to my post. Seems like you really know you stuff. I am fairly new to owning a woodstove, except as a kid when ran the stove all winter.

My chimney has 3 sides that are exposed to the outside air, its made of brick. Yes, some of the pipe go squeezed a little going through the old damper frame. The flue collar is oval so I have a 8 inch pipe that is oval to round. Does this affect the draft? I had the flue collat going horizontal for 18 inches or so and was wondering if this is the problem. Is it reccomended that the flue collar go vertically? If you look at the pictures I posted you will see what I mean. I have pics of the flue collar going vertical and horizontal. Which is best? my wood has been seasoning for about 17 months and is probably a litte drier than should be but I am having a cord delivered next week that has been seasoned for about 11 months. The conditions here havent be good for burning  (low 50,high 40s at night) and was wondering if that will affect how the stove drafts.

Thanks for your time with this, I appreciate it.

Aaron


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## seaken (Oct 21, 2007)

Yes, ovalized pipe is more restrictive than round pipe. Also, you didn't say if you ran the liner all the way to the top and installed a block-off plate?

If the fireplace is outside the house it is essential that you install a block-off and even better if you use insulated liner. Location in the house will also make a difference relative to house pressurization. You may have to wait until it gets a little colder outside to see better results. But if you don't have the block off plate or a full re-line I would start with that. Insulating the liner would be my next suggestion. In a fireplace the horizontal collar is usually the best, as long as there is some upward rise in the horizontal pipe. Also, make sure to seal the tee cap and the collar connection.


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## awfireman (Oct 21, 2007)

We do have a blocker plate, which is made out of sheet metal. Its pretty filmsy. Is this good enough or should we upgrade? Didnt know that would affect anything (Im new to this). We have 6 " stove pipe running up the chimney and going anout 5 ft above the flue liner. So horizontal is Ok and there is no need to go vertical with the flue collar? 

Thanks again,

Aaron


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## awfireman (Oct 21, 2007)

Hi Sean,

Would you recommend going with a flex pipe instead of the standard stove pipe. I just installed crimped 6" stove pipe the whole way but wanted to know if its worth it to replace it with flexpipe.


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## titan (Oct 21, 2007)

awfireman-rigid pipe should provide less restriction to flow than a corrugated flex pipe.


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## begreen (Oct 21, 2007)

Aaron, is it possible to remove the damper? Sometimes they lift up and out. If you can avoid ovalizing the pipe, I think you will see some gains. It would also allow you to put in an insulated liner which may help with the exterior chimney. 

To answer your question about the horiz. run, be sure that it is pitched upward at least 1/4 per foot. Put a short level on it after all is in place. If the liner has pushed it down, you'll need to get that right before burning. On my stove with a similar horiz. run this made a big difference.


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## Gooserider (Oct 21, 2007)

awfireman said:
			
		

> Hi Sean,
> 
> Would you recommend going with a flex pipe instead of the standard stove pipe. I just installed crimped 6" stove pipe the whole way but wanted to know if its worth it to replace it with flexpipe.



It probably doesn't have a big impact on your smoking problem, but this is a MAJOR code violation - you are not supposed to use crimped stove pipe ANYPLACE where it can't be examined readily.  This pipe is very specifically NOT approved for use in a chimney except possibly as a connector between the stove and an approved liner.

The reason is that standard steel stovepipe is not really adequate to withstand the heat of a chimney fire, and is prone to corrosion that can lead to leaks if it is where it can't be watched for problems and replaced when needed.

IF you can afford it, and it will work with your chimney the best material to use is RIGID stainless steel chimney liner.  If you can't, go for Stainless steel (preferably 316TI alloy) FLEX liner, preferably insulated, and with blockoff plates at the top and bottom of your chimney that tightly air-seal the chimney.  If at all possible avoid ovalizing the pipe anywhere - if necessary, cutting out the firplace damper frame to get clearance is usuall OK (though it will prevent you from being able to go back to using it as a regular fireplace)

Gooserider


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## awfireman (Oct 21, 2007)

My stove has an oval flue collar so I am stuck here going with an oval to round on the first piece of pipe coming from the stove, unless they make another collar.

Thanks for your help guys. I will let you know how I make out with the changes.


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## BrotherBart (Oct 21, 2007)

You many already have it but if you don't here is the manual for the FA224CCL. Notice the part on chimneys that says to not use stovepipe as a chimney.

http://www.cfmcustomercare.com/elements/uploads/files/Manual_DWPre1990_EN3.pdf 

It may help some of the folks helping you diagnose the problem also.


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## awfireman (Oct 21, 2007)

Thanks Brother Bart. I appreciate everyones time helping me with this smoking problem,youve all been a big help. Hopefully the recommendations work. I will keep you posted on the progress! If anyone has any other ideas please feel free to pitch in.

Thanks again -Aaron


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## Gooserider (Oct 22, 2007)

awfireman said:
			
		

> My stove has an oval flue collar so I am stuck here going with an oval to round on the first piece of pipe coming from the stove, unless they make another collar.
> 
> Thanks for your help guys. I will let you know how I make out with the changes.



Just as a note, and I do NOT know if it applies in your case, VC seems to use the same basic flue collar connection design on most of their cast stoves, and thus you can get different collars if that helps. I know they make the oval, a 6" round and an 8" round, don't know if they do other sizes or not. (note that not all stoves are OK to use w/ all collars even if they will bolt up)  I don't know that it would in your case, as long as the transition you are using is smooth, but it's something to keep in mind if you think that would make your install easier to work with.

Another thought if you are forced to use an ovalized connector on the first section going through the damper is that if you ovalize a 6" round pipe, you reduce it's cross-section area.  However you can purchase ovalized pipe that keeps the area the same as 6" round.  Some folks have used this as a way to get past dampers w/o restricting their flow.

Gooserider


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## seaken (Oct 24, 2007)

Just some clarification,

You got some good advice and I agree with most of what has been said. However, VC does not make different collars for your model. You have a model that was in production when VC purchased CDW, and yes, it does use an oval collar. One of the changes that VC made was to change the collar on the Small Convection to a 6" round. But your stove will not support the newer collars. VC redesigned the mounting area on the back of the stove.

CDW sold a pipe kit for connection to fireplaces that included an ovalized pipe about 5 feet long and a tee connection. Everyone in the industry by that time knew that ovalizing the pipe was a no-no but CDW was selling direct to the consumer and they didn't care that it would cause a problem with draft. Not to mention that they were recommending only a "direct connect", or stub-in, type of install, rather than a full re-line, or "positive connect". 

I believe you will continue to have your smoking problems until you upgrade your liner setup. I suggest using a "small-oval" section with a tee connection at the bottom, a sealed block-off plate at the lintel or damper, and rigid or flexible 6" SS liner with insulation all the way to the top of the chimney. Note: the "small oval" is a special pipe that is ovalized to accommodate 6" flues. It is 8" pipe that has been ovalized and fittings are made to adapt back to the 6" round. If you can cut out your damper and go 6" round all the way that would even be better. Use 6" round pipe and squeeze it into your oval collar and get it to 6" round as soon as possible.

Recent versions of the NFPA 211 specify that only Stainless Steel pipes may be used as interior re-line pipes when re-lining a masonry flue with a metal pipe. Use of regular steel is a bad idea because it will degrade quickly, and as mentioned, will disintegrate in a chimney fire. You will get some varying advise, some will not see a problem with using cheap snap pipe in this application. Those of use who are chimney professionals will suggest using only stainless steel. Stainless steel is safer.

Sean


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## awfireman (Oct 24, 2007)

Hi Sean,

Thanks for the suggestions. Right now my oval flue collar is attached to an oval to round 7 inch section, then to a tee then 6 inch stove pipe up the chimney. Are you reccomending something different?  Does the SS liner allow me to remove the 2 foot sections of stove pipe or does this just go on the outside. Sorry this question seems rather stupid... I am an novice at this.

Maybe you can price this out for me? I dont have many stove/hearth place here in Plymouth so maybe I can buy from you. My personal email is awfireman@yahoo.com if you want to relpy there.

Thanks,

Aaron


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## seaken (Oct 26, 2007)

awfireman said:
			
		

> Hi Sean,
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions. Right now my oval flue collar is attached to an oval to round 7 inch section, then to a tee then 6 inch stove pipe up the chimney. Are you reccomending something different?  Does the SS liner allow me to remove the 2 foot sections of stove pipe or does this just go on the outside. Sorry this question seems rather stupid... I am an novice at this.
> 
> ...



It sounds like you are okay from the collar to the tee. But then you squeeze the 6" pipe through the damper. What I am suggesting is to change out the 6" round tee for a "Small Oval" SS tee section, then Small Oval SS pipe through the damper, the back to 6" round SS to the top. Along with a good block-off plate. An alternative is to cut the damper open to allow the 6" round SS pipe to pass through without squeezing into an oval.


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## missing link (Dec 23, 2009)

does anyone have a part # for this 224ccl  blower fan 2 speed  , any info  where I can get one FAST
 I'm moving the heat with a floor fan but that blower was sweet it lasted 19yrs
 I live in se Mass towards the Cape
 Merry Christmas stay warm 
 LINK


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## Gooserider (Dec 24, 2009)

missing link said:
			
		

> does anyone have a part # for this 224ccl  blower fan 2 speed  , any info  where I can get one FAST
> I'm moving the heat with a floor fan but that blower was sweet it lasted 19yrs
> I live in se Mass towards the Cape
> Merry Christmas stay warm
> LINK



It's almost certainly a generic motor of some sort, I would suggest pulling it out, walking into a Grainger or similar place, dropping it on the counter and saying "I want one of these..."  If they can't match it exactly, they should be able to give you something close enough to work.  Essentially you will be just matching up the form factor, mounting holes, etc.

Gooserider


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## missing link (Dec 24, 2009)

thanks for the reply the stove store up the street is f'n with me 4 x-tra $$$$$$$$$ I'll check things out 
 merry christmas my brother


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## katwillny (Dec 24, 2009)

I used to have the same problem with my stove. Someone suggested to open a window when first lighting the stove to reduce the negative pressure. That solved the problem of smoke backing up at first light up. Very important that you constantly clean the Cat and also open the bypass when reloading the stove. I usually open the CAT when reloading and leave it open for about 5 to 10 minutes. this minimizes the amount of moisture hitting the case in the event of not so well seasoned wood.


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