# What is the relative quality of Oregon Chain Saw Blades



## Jerry_NJ (May 21, 2008)

Another thread on this forum about purchasing a chain saw also touched on the quality of chain blades, particularly in how long they last between sharpening.  In this thread the statement was made that Oregon blades are sub-par relative to one or more of the upper priced chain saw brands.

I use low cost chain saws (Homelite, Sears, Poulan) and buy Oregon chains at Walmart (two pack for 14" S52T being my most used) and sometimes at Home Depot.  From what was said on the reference thread I may be getting poor life out of Oregon chains... or my economy/cheap chain saw/bar promotes early chain dulling.

What's up? How many hours do you get per sharpening of your chains when cutting green hardwood?  Here I'm most interested in smaller bars, say 14" and 16", I rarely use my 20" bar, still on the first chain :lol:


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## woodmaster (May 21, 2008)

Both Stihl and Oregon make many different types of chain. The reality is that dirt dulls chain , I think its the Chevy -Ford debate. You may want to experiment and find a different chain that you like better.


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## mikeathens (May 21, 2008)

I ran a Craftsman for several years, and noted that the chain would last 3-4 hours.  I bought several Oregon chains from Lowes, with the same results.

Went to a talk on chainsaw safety and equipment put on by the local woodland interest group last year; the speaker was an OSU extension chainsaw expert.  A friend of mine asked how long he typically gets out of a chain, and he said about 4 DAYS.  He, of course, owned several Stihls.

I got my Stihl 361 last fall, and have had the same experience.  If I hadn't hit a rock when I was sawing some black locust, I would probably still be on the first chain.

I went through 2 tanks of gas on saturday sawing some white oak- BIG stuff.  I will probably put another 10 hours on this chain before I need to resharpen.  I could never do that with the craftsman and oregon chain.  Stihl makes their own chains, and they are worth the money.

My opinion and experiences, of course...


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## Eric Johnson (May 21, 2008)

Oregon makes perfectly good sawchain. If you can keep it away from dirt and rocks and keep it sharp, it will last for years under normal, firewood cutting use. I can get better than 20 full cords of 2-foot wood out of a chain, and that's with the occasional rock accident. Actually, not all that occasional. So far this season I've hit rocks 3 times in 15 tanks. Still expect to get more than 20 cords from a $10 chain.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 21, 2008)

Eric,

So, that's good news and a contrast to other posts I've read of late.  Maybe it is you're using a better quality saw..i.e., tracks better or something that makes the chain stay sharp/usable longer.  What saw are you cutting with?  

I don't hit a lot of rocks, maybe none in a tank or two, but it seems after a couple of tanks (what would that be? guess about 30 minutes of actual cutting time) the blade is in need of a file.  I'm not talking either about how long a chain lasts after my amature sharpening, I'm talking about a new blade, just went through one, an Oregon S52T, a couple of days ago. Still, I've never tried a Stihl, guess you have to own one to use one of their chains..or do they make a S52T equivalent?  Could be worth a try on my 14" Homelite.  

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm quite willing to learn of those cases (not all cases are going to work out that way for me) where spending more actually cost less.


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## mikeathens (May 21, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> Oregon makes perfectly good sawchain. If you can keep it away from dirt and rocks and keep it sharp, it will last for years under normal, firewood cutting use. I can get better than 20 full cords of 2-foot wood out of a chain, and that's with the occasional rock accident. Actually, not all that occasional. So far this season I've hit rocks 3 times in 15 tanks. Still expect to get more than 20 cords from a $10 chain.



Eric:

So in your opinion, what would have caused the chain to need resharpened so much?  Could lower RPMs cause that?  I never hit rocks or dirt with the craftsman.  I swear, I'm using my Stihl the same way, and that chain lasts a TON longer (if you'll let me measure time in terms of weight).  I'm curious to see what your take is.


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## Eric Johnson (May 21, 2008)

I don't know. I sharpen after every tank, whether it needs it or not. Some woods are harder on chains than others. Sometimes you get fine grit or sand in the bark that you can't see, and that can dull a chain up pretty quick. Sometimes you can file the chain wrong and it will dull up more quickly because the cutting edge is the wrong shape. I doubt that chain speed has any effect on wear.


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## mikeathens (May 21, 2008)

I don't want to get into a big debate, and I'm not saying Oregon chains are not good quality.  Can saw for many, many hours with the Stihl chain before it needs resharpened.  The Oregon chain would only last a few hours before it needed resharpening.  All in all, is it fair to say that both chains will have a similar life, but that Stihl chains will hold an edge much longer?  A friend of mine and I were talking about this, and he noticed the same thing (he got his 361 when I did).  He is convinced that Stihl uses higher quality steel in their chains.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 21, 2008)

May be, the metal is harder in Stihl chains, good that it isn't my cheap saw that's causing the problem.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 21, 2008)

Another, related question/experience.  I took my saw out tonight to cut some Eastern Red Cedar, yes I've decided to start collecting stove size cedar, no more hard wood snobbery for me.  The Oregon blade had about 30 minutes cutting time on it and I had just done a light sharpening, 5/32" round file only.  I was cutting some trees my wife wanted removed so some wild dogwood trees would get more light.  The cedar were about 6-8" in diameter at a few feet off the ground, and about 25 feet tall.  Now I may have cut my notch too deep, but I started getting binding problems while cutting the notch.  Then, when I had the tree on the ground I again found some binding when cutting through the trunk, even when it was on the ground.  Is it possible that softwood, such as cedar will swell or something else while being cut and thus start to bind the blade?  Or, could it be a poorly sharpened chain that does it.  Seemed to me I was not binding the blade because of the weight of the tree was squeezing the cut opening.  I hope my story makes sense.


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## savageactor7 (May 22, 2008)

On my 20' Huskey I use Oregon 73LG chains cause I have Oregon bar. Just replaced a chain after cutting at least 13 full cords of wood...plus after having used it last summer mostly harvesting/limbing. Since it was my last one I bought 10 chains this AM at 10 something a chain. Think I save 2 something when I get them 10 at a time.

I don't think I've ever used more than 2 chains a year. My chains stretch out, but if I could find someone to take a link out I think they'd probably all be good for another 10 full cord. They don't take links out anymore cause of some lawsuit so I've been saving my old one's just in case.

At one time I used Stihl chains but with my wood I like the Oregon 73LG it's not real sharp, sharp but it stays sharp longer. When I find myself putting pressure on the grab bar then I sharpen it up cause when this chain is sharp it'll cut through a 16"+ log one handed. Sometimes I'll find myself limbing with a dull chain but never bucking.

I suppose the kind of wood you cut mostly determines how long it will stay sharp. Sometimes I can go a half a day without sharpening other days I sharpen it 3 times. I always drag the log over 3 saplings centered in the middle third of log I'm cutting... doing that helps keep the chain out of the dirt and it's easier to roll the log over. Also the chain is always resharpened at the end of the day.

I cut mostly maple and ash and some elm. Oh and I'm pretty sure I'm going through fewer chains using my 20' saw than the 16" saw.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 22, 2008)

Thanks, another testimony for Oregon.  I always thought Oregon chains to be "A" quality, whereas my Homelite $99 14" chain saw is bottom of the heap (not sure, Harbor freight may have something cheaper).  Still, I don't get a lot of cuts out of a blade, maybe only 20 or thirty trunk cuts (and I'm talking small trunks, all under 12", i.e., I cut with a 14" blade).  I'm wondering if I've got a real poor technique or if the low-end saw contributes to a short blade life, or some combination.  As I mention just above in this post, I found some pinching problems with softwood/cedar, I'll have to try the: "drag the log over 3 saplings centered in the middle third of log I’m cutting", but not sure I can figure out what "middle third" means.  I'm not taking "shots" here, just trying to learn.  I'll take this to mean that three saplings (smaller pieces) form a platform upon which the log being cut extends beyond the point of cutting, i.e., its weight is pulling the cut apart.

I am an occasional chain saw user, I have purchased most of my fire wood cut and spit (but the rising costs are making me do more cut my own, if I can find it, or buy it for less $$ than already cut).

I have a large maple near the house, maybe too near my chimney and was thinking about hiring a professional tree service to cut the larger branches on the side facing the house and just dropping them on the ground, then I'll cut/split and clean up.  This should be cheaper than having them dispose of the cut limbs, right?


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## computeruser (May 22, 2008)

Oregon chain is perfectly serviceable.  The crap safety chain you are buying at Wal-Mart is about as poor a choice as you could make from the current crop of Oregon offerings.  Assuming you're running 91vg 3/8"LoProfile chain, I suspect you would want to check out the non-safety versions for better cutting, easier sharpening, and improved performance.

Oregon holds an edge just fine if you do your part.  I got a couple full cords of firewood, a weekend alongside the chipper, and a few hours of clearing saplings and shrubs out of the loop of  95vg that is still on my Husqvarna 238 without needing to even touch it up with a file.  This is more than acceptable, in my opinion.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 22, 2008)

c-user, thanks

So, does Walmart have a contract with Oregon for a cheap chain, or is it a general cheap line sold elsewhere too, e.g., Home Depot.  I know Walmart is famous for "hitting on suppliers" to get the cost/price down and this can/does lead to cost cutting measures.  How can one tell looking at the Oregon package?  You note a "95vg" is that a part number? for what length?  I will look on the Oregon web site.I am happy to report, looking at a two chain package on my desk at this moment, that the chain is "Made in U.S.A."  gotta love that  

As for a non-safety version, no thanks, I'm dangerous enough (unskilled enough) as it is.

Thanks again,


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## savageactor7 (May 22, 2008)

Jerry I'm thinking if your saw is 'pinching' then it's probably getting dull when you quickly pull it out and the tip hit's the dirt. When ya do that a couple a three times the edge quickly comes off the points of the chain...and it's the points that do the cutting, mostly anyways. 

So it would help if the log you were cutting was elevated slightly off the ground with those sacrificial logs I mentioned earlier. by putting those 3 logs in the center of the log your cutting you can cuts ends for the left then the right saving the middle for last...when it works correctly your log is kind of balanced, but not really. 

As far as WalMart Oregon chains being lower quality...I don't think that's true, but I dunno. But like was suggested earlier get away from those safety chains...you'll be fine. 

With your 14" saw and a sharp chain you should be able to one arm that saw and watch it cut through wood cleanly with no forcing at all. Not that I'm recommending one arm operation but only to help you understand that the saw does the cutting with out any pressure from your guiding arm.

Finely if you still have those spiked bumpers on, I'd take 'em off you don't need 'em for bucking rounds and imo they kind of lend themselves to saw abuse. Some operators use them unconsciously to strong arm the chain saw through the log.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 22, 2008)

Ok, thanks for the details on improving technique.  I'm sure I let the "nose" of the say hit the dirt, figuring if it doesn't hit a rock it will not be damaged, much.  The Homelite is "famous" for the nose guard, I suppose that has in the past helped protect the chain when I let the nose hit the dirt.  The guard came off a couple of cuttings back, and so I no longer use a protector..and it may be that the chains get dull faster now, for reasons noted.  

I now understand putting support in the middle, and working in from both ends, that's a good tip.


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## WOODBUTCHER (May 22, 2008)

I have been using Oregon chains for many years. My recently retired 42cc craftsman used Oregon S62 chains from Wallmart. I'm careful about dirt and rocks and sharpen my own.
Last year a freshly sharpened chain got me through many cords of pignut/shagbark hickory. I've got a Dolmar 5100s now, Oregon makes the bar for Dolmar and I've got 3 Oregon 3/8 chains for it.
Good Quality stuff !


WoodButcher


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## mikeathens (May 22, 2008)

Pretty good testimony!  I just wonder what factors have resulted in my oregon chains dulling much faster than my stihl. Hmmmmmmm...


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## savageactor7 (May 22, 2008)

Mike I used Stihl chains for years but when I needed a new bar right away I got an Oregon and that required a 73 tooth chain which Stihl didn't have. That's when I found out an Oregon chain suited my needs better...even though I started buying them by the 10 count. Being in Ohio you're probably cutting a lot of cherry and perhaps that's more suited for the Stihl chipper chain. I'm no expert but I'm thinking the wood you 'mostly' cut would best determine what chain to use.


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## JustWood (May 22, 2008)

I won't buy anything but Oregon chisel chain. Been using it for a long time with no problems.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 22, 2008)

So, not all chains are created the same/equal.  Where do you find information such as "chisel chain" or "chipper chain"?  The box my Oregon came in just says "Cutting Chain"  and a number S52T.  Is this another type: chisel, chipper and cutting?  In any case, if I buy from Walmat what I get is what they got, there's no choice of type of teeth.


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## savageactor7 (May 22, 2008)

^ that's why I always recommend dealing with a qualified 'dealer'...they have your interests at stake and will have the right answer for any question you throw at them. Just say'en I have no personal interest or investment of any kind with any dealer what so ever...I'm just speaking from personal experience.


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## mikeathens (May 22, 2008)

WOODBUTCHER said:
			
		

> I have been using Oregon chains for many years. My recently retired 42cc craftsman used Oregon S62 chains from Wallmart. I'm careful about dirt and rocks and sharpen my own.
> Last year a freshly sharpened chain got me through many cords of pignut/shagbark hickory. I've got a Dolmar 5100s now, Oregon makes the bar for Dolmar and I've got 3 Oregon 3/8 chains for it.
> Good Quality stuff !
> 
> WoodButcher



Woodbutcher:

Now, are you saying that you got through many cords on one chain - OR - you got through many cords on the initial sharpening?

Maybe I should clarify that I can cut much, much longer between  SHARPENINGS with Stihl than I did with my Oregon chains.  When it's all said and done, could you say Stihl vs. oregon might get you the same # cords per chain, but that you spend a lot less time sharpening with the Stihl.  I didn't see that anyone addressed that or that anyone has noted same experiences?

I'm typically cutting black locust, cherry, red oak, white oak, shagbark hickory, some black walnut.


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## savageactor7 (May 22, 2008)

Wow...wood doesn't get any harder than what you're cutting Mike...stay with the Stihl chain if it works for you. Chain is a preference ya just have to go with whatever works best for you and I can see why you prefer that stihl chain.

For me sharpening a chain is no big deal...any time I find myself use a full trigger pull to cut...it's time to sharpen. Logging hard enough as it is why use a dull chain...resharpening is something I do to take a break.


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## Sealcove (May 24, 2008)

I use Oregon 73LG and the equivalent Stihl chain interchangeably.  There is no perceptible cutting or wear difference between the two for this particular chain.  Just like saw brands, it is more a question of grade, and you need to compare like grades not just Oregon versus Stihl.


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## computeruser (May 27, 2008)

Jerry_NJ said:
			
		

> c-user, thanks
> 
> So, does Walmart have a contract with Oregon for a cheap chain, or is it a general cheap line sold elsewhere too, e.g., Home Depot.  I know Walmart is famous for "hitting on suppliers" to get the cost/price down and this can/does lead to cost cutting measures.  How can one tell looking at the Oregon package?  You note a "95vg" is that a part number? for what length?  I will look on the Oregon web site.I am happy to report, looking at a two chain package on my desk at this moment, that the chain is "Made in U.S.A."  gotta love that
> 
> ...



I'm presuming that the loops you're buying are some sort of rebadged Oregon 91VG chain.  The 91-series is Oregon's 3/8" pitch Low Profile chain, usually found on <45cc consumer saws and <40cc pro saws.  There is nothing inherently wrong with the 91 series, but the VG version with the bumper tie straps go so far into the realm of no-kickback as to prevent intentional cutting, too.  The other 91-series versions, those without the bumper tie strap, are quite respectable performers.  95vp is the narrow kerf .325" pitch chain, common on Husqvarnas between 40 and 55cc.  It is a "safety" chain with low-kickback properties owing to its depth gauge/raker design, and does not have bumper tie straps between the cutters; 95vp is a superb chain and a great cutter.  I run 91-series on my Echo top handles and 95vp on my 238 Husqvarna.  

Any chain can hurt you, whether it is a "safety" chain or not.  To think otherwise is foolish.  The advantage of non-safety chain (or at least safety chain that doesn't have those huge tiestrap bumper link thingees) is that the chain is more predictable - it cuts when you ask it, where you ask it, quickly and efficiently.  Chips are cleared smoothly from the cut, the saw pulls itself through the wood, and field-sharpening is easy and efficient.  My experience has been that accidents are usually caused by fatigue and the operator fighting the machine to get it to do its job, rather than a machine that does its job too well.

As for keeping the chain sharp, step one would be to keep it the heck out of the dirt, the grass, the sand, the pavement, and anything that isn't wood.  It doesn't take much to knock a good edge off of a chain, and while the loop may still cut OK, it won't be efficient and its dullness will force the saw to labor more than necessary, force the operator to labor more than necessary, and will invite accidents.  I have found that keeping my bars short helps a lot, especially when bucking stuff up on the ground.  The past few cords of firewood have all been processed with a 13" bar on my 238, except for pieces greater than 20".  I got better than 2 full cords out of the chain that is on the saw currently without having to sharpen it back up, and it still has a decent edge on it.  But I was conscious of where the bar tip was, what it might contact, and the results in terms of edge retention speak for themselves.

If you get a chance, take a look at Oregon's website, or at Bailey's to see illustrations of the particular chain cutter, depth gauge/raker, and tie strap designs.


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## WoodMann (May 27, 2008)

OK, one more dumb one. Where can I get a non- safety, chipper chain for a 42cc Craftsman..............


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## computeruser (May 28, 2008)

WoodMann said:
			
		

> OK, one more dumb one. Where can I get a non- safety, chipper chain for a 42cc Craftsman..............



Bailey's or Amick's would be good places to start for mail-order, or a competent saw shop should be able to set you up with something agreeable.  Take a loop in with you and have them make up another with non-safety stuff using the same pitch/gauge and drive link count.


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## WoodMann (May 28, 2008)

Hmm, I'll got the Baily''s route first. Last time I was at the Stihl shope here lookin' for some help with my craftsman the guy looked at me like I spoke Latin......................


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## aandabooks (May 29, 2008)

Thank god you showed up from AS Computeruser.  I have been reading this  thread in disbelief.  Of course, I was the same way before doing some research.  First things first for all of those with questions, go to oregonchain.com.  They have alot of answers there.  Next go to arboristsite.com.  Use the search function.

Here's a quick rundown.  It doesn't matter what brand of bar you have.  All that matters is the numbers.

Bars are made in three common widths--.050, .058 and .063

Then there are three common pitches--3/8 Low Pro, 3/8 and .325

Your bar will tell you what # of drive links you need.

So lets say you are running a Craftsman with an 18" bar 42cc.  I own one by the way.  You are using 3/8 lo pro chain in .050 width with 62 drive links.  

Oregon offers these choices: 

91vg-crap safety chain
91vx-very good in clean wood
91vs-very good in dirty wood

In Stihl this is the PM series of chain.  I have a couple for my saw but they were $20 per loop at a Stihl dealer.

There are a couple of less common and not easy to find varieties. 

Through a place like Amick's, these loops can be purchased for right around $11 per w/shipping.


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## Tfin (May 30, 2008)

Can someone please explain how to know you're getting a non-safety chain.  Does it say safety chain right on the packaging?  If not, how do you spot one?


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## WoodMann (May 30, 2008)

One more Q; What's all this I hear about pith and guage? Are we all talking about the same Amicks here.....................

http://www.amickssuperstore.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=2


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## Jerry_NJ (May 31, 2008)

The last two Oregon 14" chains I purchased from Walmart are shown as S52T, Cutting Chain.  The bar guide teeth show 91on them, there are no letters following the number.  There is no mention of "safety", but from the expert input on this thread I conclude they are as they have a wide bar (tie) between each cutting tooth and they cut slowly and with a lot of resistance, even when new/sharp.

I also have a Sears 16" which cuts like "crazy" by comparison, and it has a much simpler tooth between the cutting teeth than does the Walmart Oregon chains I have on hand.


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## aandabooks (May 31, 2008)

In Jerry's post above, ^^^^^, he uses a S52 when he goes to Wal-Mart.  http://www.amickssuperstore.com/ will sell you that chain for $9.60.  Tony will ship you up to $50 worth of chains in a flat rate Priority envelope for one shipping cost.  That will then get the price down to about $11 per chain.  They don't sell this chain at Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot etc.  If you can find a farm supply store that carries genuine Husqvarna products, you might be able to get close but it will probably be Carlton brand.  

Go to his site and on the left side go down to Oregon Chains & Accessories.  Most of the people in this thread need to go to the 3/8 LoPro link.  I got a gguy I work with a few loops of 91VX 56 for his Poulan 2150 and he couldn't believe the time he was wasting running stock VG.  Most saws are sold with safety chain due to lawsuit concerns from the manufacturers.  

If any of you run full size 3/8 chain, we can discuss Stihl RSC and Oregon LGX chain.  RSC is better but at 1/2 the price LGX is a very close second.


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## aandabooks (May 31, 2008)

WoodMann said:
			
		

> One more Q; What's all this I hear about pith and guage? Are we all talking about the same Amicks here.....................
> 
> http://www.amickssuperstore.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=2



Follow this link for info on pitch and gauge: 

http://www.oregonchain.com/faq.htm

And yes that is Amick's.  He is in North Carolina.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 31, 2008)

Thanks for the advice and link.  The price of less than $10 each is lower cost than Walmart's two-for price.  I take it the "52" is the number of cutters on the 14" chain.  and I see the space between the cutters is low and non-interfering looking.  The pictured LoPro chain looks a good bit like the chain on my Craftsman 16" and as I was using it this afternoon, I can say it really cuts nice.  

I'll use the Amick's superstore the next time I need to replace chains...or maybe sooner to get a better cutting chain in the 14" size.


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## aandabooks (May 31, 2008)

The 52 refers to the number of drive links on the chain.  Those are what run in the groove in the bar.  The number of cutters is not listed in the packaging.


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## Gooserider (Jun 18, 2008)

Tfin said:
			
		

> Can someone please explain how to know you're getting a non-safety chain.  Does it say safety chain right on the packaging?  If not, how do you spot one?



A lot is a question of the source...  The chains that come on "consumer grade" saws (most Pull-on's, Crapsman, cheap Huskies, etc. - the saws in the big box stores) will come with "safety chain", and that is what will be sold as the "Manufacturer reccomended replacement"  Likewise, the chains that you purchase in the big-box stores will be safety chains.  These chains and saws are intended for the occasional user. and will have as much safety stuff on them as possible just to give the stores some protection from the incompetent user's lawyers...

Pro-grade saws, and the chains sold in the typical PRO chain-saw shop will be "Pro-chains" that are designed to cut as well as possible, with safety features only to the extent that they aid, or at least don't get in the way of, cutting performance.

Generally you won't see the exact phrase "safety chain" since really there is no such thing as a "Safe" chain - it's sort of like "Military Intelligence" or "Government Efficiency"...   However you will see the chain billed as "homeowner" or "occaisional use" chain as the equivalent code words...  They will also make a big deal about "anti-kickback features".  

Pro-grade chain will usually have a label reccomending "professional use only" or terms like that, and won't make a big deal about anti-kickback, though it probably will be mentioned since in theory ALL modern saws and chains are supposed to be designed for lower kickback (for instance by using narrower bars, and curved raker profiles)

Also there are two main tooth designs - Chisel and Chipper - when you look at the outside edge of the cutters (the profile where the cutter comes up off the chain and bends over on the top) Chipper chain tends to be rounded, whereas chisel will be a sharp angle.  This will have a significant impact on how the chain cuts...  Chipper tends to be used on consumer chain - it doesn't cut as well when sharp, but it holds it's edge slightly better in dirty wood or when grounded.  Chisel will cut MUCH better if it's kept sharp, but won't hold an edge as long, especially in dirty wood, and grounding really dulls it fast....  A lot of pro-chain will be chisel tooth, which cuts faster, but should ideally be touched up after every tank of gas.

Gooserider


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## rg58612455 (Jun 18, 2008)

I had used oregon chain for for a long time.Last year I switched to full skip tooth chain made by Stihl.The stihl chain seemed to be harder than the oregon chain as far as sharpening goes.The big advantage of the full skip chain is that it has half as many cutters(less teeth to sharpen=sharp in half the time).I also buy this chain by the roll.It works out to cost $.12 a driver.The downside is having to buy the punch and the rivet setter (about $100 each).Also, if you have the chain sharpened with a grinder it is very hard to sharpen with a file in the field afterword.I think it hardens the chain due to the heat of the grinding wheel.Back to oregon chain ,in my opinion, the oregon chain isn't as high in quality as stihl.(the only two brands i have ever used).The stihl chain is higher priced though.I have cut hundreds of cords of wood with oregon chain and can't complain either.Just like the skip tooth.


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## Gooserider (Jun 19, 2008)

Ralph G. said:
			
		

> I had used oregon chain for for a long time.Last year I switched to full skip tooth chain made by Stihl.The stihl chain seemed to be harder than the oregon chain as far as sharpening goes.The big advantage of the full skip chain is that it has half as many cutters(less teeth to sharpen=sharp in half the time).I also buy this chain by the roll.It works out to cost $.12 a driver.The downside is having to buy the punch and the rivet setter (about $100 each).Also, if you have the chain sharpened with a grinder it is very hard to sharpen with a file in the field afterword.I think it hardens the chain due to the heat of the grinding wheel.Back to oregon chain ,in my opinion, the oregon chain isn't as high in quality as stihl.(the only two brands i have ever used).The stihl chain is higher priced though.I have cut hundreds of cords of wood with oregon chain and can't complain either.Just like the skip tooth.



I agree the roll chain can be a bit cheaper, but the downside is the extra tooling - unless you have an unusual setup on your saw that you can't get a stock loop, or are a pro-level cutter that has to keep chains on a whole bunch of saws, I suspect that buying loops is a better deal - as an example, IIRC my 20" Dolmar takes 72 cutters - at $0.12 each, that works out to $8.64 a loop - I pay about $11 a loop for Oregon chain from Amick's or about $2.50 per loop more...  If I go through two loops a year, it would take me years to pay for the tooling to make my own and start saving money...  I suspect most of our users are in the same boat.

Stihl chain may be a little better than Oregon, but it is significantly more expensive from what I've heard - even assuming you get the full life out of each chain, the cost / cord is probably about the same - and I'll cry less if I hit a buried nail or rock and trash the chain early.

As to Skip vx. Non-Skip chain, you are right that skip has less teeth to sharpen, but it also has fewer teeth to cut with - assuming the saw can pull the full bar of standard chain, you will cut faster with standard chain than you will with skip...  Where skip gets useful is if you are trying to over-bar the saw, and run a longer bar than the saw can pull easily with standard, the reduced cutting load will let you get away with it.  (However it is definitely a case of whatever works for you)

Sharpening w/ a grinder is something most people seem to feel softens the teeth by taking the temper out, as opposed to heat hardening - however what I've heard as being more of a possible reason for making it harder to sharpen with a file afterwards is that it may embed microscopic particles from the grinding wheel into the cutter steel.  Since those particles are harder than your file, they will tend to keep the file from cutting well until they are gone...  Don't know how true this is, but it makes sense to me.  As is, I file after every tank of gas, and won't grind unless I hit a rock, nail, or otherwise manage to bugger the chain up beyond the point where I can fix it by filing...

Gooserider


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## TruePatriot (Jun 20, 2008)

Jerry NJ,

I cannot provide the quality of comments that Goose, Eric and others can.

I simply wanted to reinforce what others have said about this:



> Ok, thanks for the details on improving technique.  *I’m sure I let the “nose” of the say hit the dirt, figuring if it doesn’t hit a rock it will not be damaged, much. * The Homelite is “famous” for the nose guard, I suppose that has in the past helped protect the chain when I let the nose hit the dirt.  The guard came off a couple of cuttings back, and so I no longer use a protector..and it may be that the chains get dull faster now, for reasons noted.
> 
> I now understand putting support in the middle, and working in from both ends, that’s a good tip.


 (*bold *emphasis added)

You simply _cannot _let the nose "hit the dirt."  Respectfully, I believe you are wrong when you say "figuring if it doesn’t hit a rock it will not be damaged, much."  

Here's a test:  after you (properly) hand-sharpen your chain, you will notice that the cutting edges do not reflect light from a 100 watt, incandescent bulb.  I suggest you immediately go recheck the teeth-edges' light-reflecting ability, after your first "dirt strike"--I suspect you will see many teeth now _reflecting _light, where they did _not,_ when properly sharpened.  Just my .02.

But I thank you for posting this thread--I didn't realize, before reading this, that I do NOT want to buy chains from a "Big Box" store--just as a sharp knife is less dangerous than a dull one (per my Grandfather, and others--LOL) I believe you will be happier, and less-fatigued, i.e., thus safer, with professional chains.  The Homelite 360 (late '70's/early '80's vintage) saw that I got from my Dad has an "old school" chain on it, and it cuts mad-fast (as "the kids" might say).

Re: 





> guard came off a couple of cuttings back, and so I no longer use a protector..and it may be that the chains get dull faster now, for reasons noted.


 I dont' think so--*the guards I'm familiar with protect the end of the bar;  yet, a "dirt strike" would, IMO, commonly occur on the bottom edge of the tip, *i.e., an area _not _ (necessarily) protected by the goofy bar-end guards.

Though the experts here may feel differently, IMO, if you're getting "binding" of the bar, in cuts, I would look to _technique_, not chains or guards.  Every time I've bound a bar in a cut, it's because I wasn't paying attention and/or failed to analyze the situation, prior to pulling the rope.

This lesson will be reinforced the first time you have to unbolt your saw from the bar, and leave the bar (thus preventing theft of the powerhead) while you go home for saw #2.  P.S.:  I now take saw #2 with me, in case I "bind up."

But I don't think you can blame "bar pinching" on the chain--no offense, but IMHO, that's the fault of the operator--and I've had occasion to blame myself in several such occasions...trust me.

I would remove "nose guard," were it to come with a new saw--it prevents "plunge cuts" and limits the effective length of your bar;  on the other hand, if you feel, as you state, that you are not ready to do this, due to the increased risk of "kick back," then follow your gut, by all means.  *I'll bet you could get the saw vendor to send you a new bar guard, free-of-charge, just for the asking, given the legalities involved.  *If not, how much could a new guard possibly cost?  

At least as valuable as a guard would be, IMO, Kevlar chaps, to protect your legs.  I have never owned a pair, myself but, to be honest, when I see experienced cutters like Goose, et. al., using them (IIRC), as well as some upstate friends of mine, it makes me consider them a good investment.  However, as my wood guy now delivers bucked-to-length rounds, FREE OF CHARGE, I really don't do much cutting, these days, happily.  (I'm assuming you, like me, already wear safety glasses and hearing protection, part of the PPE ethos?)

*If you follow the Oregon link posted, above, you can find an excellent, FREE BOOKLET ON CHAIN SAW TECHNIQUE AND MAINTENANCE, from Oregon!  *I had one sent to me and it was VERY informative!

Also, as has been noted, minute amounts of dirt in the bark can DESTROY your sharpening job.  For that reason, when I was getting "yard trees" dropped in my hard (from an arborist) for free, I would painstakingly roll the 3' diameter logs until I could go _all the way around it _with a cup brush on my angle grinder, FOR EACH 18" length cut, to remove dirt impacted into the bark from dragging, or from being dumped/sitting on my lawn.  This greatly extended the time between necessary sharpenings of my saw.

Thanks for a very informative thread!

Wishing you safe, fruitful chainsawing.


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## Jerry_NJ (Jun 20, 2008)

TurePatriot, 

Thanks for the careful summary/analysis/recommendations, they help clarify what has been a great collection of experience.

I still have the nose guard, just need to put a new bolt to reattach...I like it better off.  I also note I have had great success with my (for occasional use only - I find that warning amusing and painfully honest) 16" Craftsman saw which has the safety chain, it cuts great anyway... must be sharp, and I have touched it up a couple of time with a file.  I do look for a clean looking tooth after sharpening, but hadn't specifically used a light and looked for reflections.  I'll add that to my "tool kit".

Thanks,
Jerry


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## Gooserider (Jun 20, 2008)

Mostly good advice TP...  "Dirt strikes" even without rocks are bad news for a chain, though IMHO some dirt is worse than other dirt, "leaf mould" will probably do a lot less damage than what most of us think of as dirt...

I'm not sure I like the idea of having the guard on at all, especially with a modern saw with a narrow bar and a brake.  (And I wouldn't use an older saw with a wide bar / no brake for production cutting - just possibly a controlled demo that it still works)  The nose guard at best is only going to prevent one of the three possible kickback types, and as you mention it will significantly interfere with cutting - far better to learn what causes kickback, how to avoid it, and how to control it safely than to place false confidence in a device that might not work.

As to safety gear, I've got FAR more $ spent on gear than I do on my cheap Pull-on saw, and nearly as much as I've got in my Dolmar...  I don't pull a rope unless I'm wearing ALL of it.  - In rough order of priority, both mine and from looking at the accident statistics from OSHA etc. as to where injuries are likely to happen.

Head gear - I started w/ just muffs - Mandatory, even new stock chainsaws are loud enough to cause significant hearing damage with one tank of gas...  I also require anyone working with me to wear them.  I wear large prescription eyeglasses, but even with them I was still catching a lot of chips in the face, so I got a set of muffs with a face screen - this is OK if ALL you are cutting is logs that are on the ground, but when doing any sort of tree work, you need impact protection as well - trees are noted for dropping stuff on people trying to cut them down.  :bug:  I now use a combination hard-hat / ear-muff / face screen unit, with my glasses underneath - spend the money, it's worth it.  Look to spend $30-50 (and beware the cheap units...  I would not buy one that didn't either have a saw makers name on it, or that I'd personally examined and found to be good quality)

Chaps - I use a pair of Stihl Pro-mark chaps, but Labonville also makes nice ones - Look for lots of kevlar or energetex padding, and a tough outer shell, preferably with a cell phone pocket.  You can get either chaps or pants, I've been told that the pants are a bit more comfortable in all day wear, are a bit less prone to catch on brush, and may offer a little better protection, but the chaps are a lot easier to get on and off, and are cooler in the heat - I find the chaps are quite adequate for my needs, and I don't have any desire for the pants...  Look to spend around $70

Chain Saw boots...  These are specifically designed boots with kevlar or other saw jamming padding in them.  They are NOT the same as the "Logger boots" that you will find in lots of shoe stores, these are fashion accessories and won't give any protection to speak of.  A chainsaw boot will be clearly marked as such and have various certification labeling on it.  Steel toe boots are better than nothing, but the OSHA injury stats say that many chainsaw hits are on the top of the foot, where a steel toe isn't (plus a chainsaw can go through a steel toe)...  Feet are very complex body parts, a bad cut on the top of the foot can definitely be crippling.  I spent over $300 for a pair of Matterhorn boots because they clearly appeared to be better than the others - Higher, more layers of kevlar, Gore-tex lining for waterproof breathability, etc. and while they are the most expensive footgear I've ever owned, they are also incredibly comfortable.  You can get less expensive boots from Labonville and a few other places, but you will still pay a pretty good chunk for them, this is probably the most expensive peice of gear.

Gloves - I have a pair of Husky chainsaw gloves, which I wear, but would tend to say that while SOME gloves are essential, I'm not sure how much good it does to have them be chainsaw gloves - the OSHA numbers show hand injuries to be very low frequency, and the padding in these gloves is so thin as to be nearly indetectable and it's only on one hand...  At $25/pair the gloves aren't that expensive, but when these wear out I probably won't buy a replacement pair, just stick with the normal gloves I wear for other things.  Also the Husky gloves are "gauntlet" style, and they tend to fill up with chips...  I prefer the tight fitting "technical" style gloves with a snug wrist closure that keeps the crud out.

Chainsaw vests / shirts / jackets - I do NOT wear these - probably nothing wrong with them, but the OSHA stats say that the risk of injuries in the areas they cover is minimal to begin with, I'm not sure the added protection is worth the expense...

BTW, if you want testimonials on chaps and head gear especially, take a look over on Arboristsite, you'll see lots of "true confession" stories, complete w/ gory pictures of what happens when NOT wearing the gear...

Gooserider


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## Gooserider (Jun 20, 2008)

Continued from above...



			
				TruePatriot said:
			
		

> <snip>
> *If you follow the Oregon link posted, above, you can find an excellent, FREE BOOKLET ON CHAIN SAW TECHNIQUE AND MAINTENANCE, from Oregon!  *I had one sent to me and it was VERY informative!



I'll second that, very useful book, and the price is right....



> Also, as has been noted, minute amounts of dirt in the bark can DESTROY your sharpening job.  For that reason, when I was getting "yard trees" dropped in my hard (from an arborist) for free, I would painstakingly roll the 3' diameter logs until I could go _all the way around it _with a cup brush on my angle grinder, FOR EACH 18" length cut, to remove dirt impacted into the bark from dragging, or from being dumped/sitting on my lawn.  This greatly extended the time between necessary sharpenings of my saw.
> 
> Thanks for a very informative thread!
> 
> Wishing you safe, fruitful chainsawing.



Most of the veteran cutters will tell you to sharpen a few strokes with a file after every tank of gas - I didn't use to do this, but once I tried it, I now find it absolutely essential.  I won't do a grinder unless I hit a nail or rock and really ding the chain up beyond where filing can fix it - hasn't happenned yet...  However if you are doing this, I would tend to say that your cup brush technique is a bit excessive unless the logs are so coated they look like chocolate mud dipped...  The amount of wear on the chain from the bark dirt during one tank of gas won't hurt the cutting ability enough to notice if you touch up after every tank.  You probably spent more time brushing the log than you would have spent sharpenning the chain between tanks - I find it takes me about 10-20 minutes depending on how hard I go at it, which gives me a nice rest from swinging the saw, and lets it cool down before refueling...  (Not to mention embedding wires from the brush into the log, and what THOSE might do to the saw...)

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Jun 20, 2008)

Goose what was the verdict on that Home Depot chain you bought last year? They are Carltons and after using Carlton chains from another source for a year I throw rocks at my Oregon chains. Won't have any more of'em except in an emergency. Whatever they make the cutters out of on the Carlton chains is hard stuff and holds an edge a long time but file beautifully by hand.


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## Gooserider (Jun 21, 2008)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Goose what was the verdict on that Home Depot chain you bought last year? They are Carltons and after using Carlton chains from another source for a year I throw rocks at my Oregon chains. Won't have any more of'em except in an emergency. Whatever they make the cutters out of on the Carlton chains is hard stuff and holds an edge a long time but file beautifully by hand.



Mixed...  One of the two chains broke on me, but that may have been abuse (I think I might have gotten it pinched earlier)  the other one was holding up OK but not great when I decided to rebar the saw it was on to 12" - I'd been using a grinder on it before then, the switch to the 12" bar was also the point where one of my friends got me into hand filing...

With the 12" bar, I'm now running a pro-grade chain, I forget what brand, Windsor perhaps?  It cuts even better than the HD chain, but that might be a function of the shorter bar as well.

At this point, I still have the old 16" bar in the toolbox with that chain on it, but consider it fairly unlikely that I'll ever use it again - the 12" bar works so much better on the Pull-On, and when I need something bigger, it's Dolmar time...

Bottom line, I can't say what the durability of the HD chain is.  I can't completely review it, but it does seem to do better than the Oregon for cutting ability, but not as good as a pro-grade.  (Note that while it isn't as overly safety loaded as the Oregon chains, it is still a safety chain....)

Gooserider


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## TruePatriot (Jun 23, 2008)

Jerry,

Re: this:



> TurePatriot,
> 
> Thanks for the careful summary/analysis/recommendations, they help clarify what has been a great collection of experience.
> 
> ...



The 100 watt bulb thing is my own concoction--I just happened to notice this, when lighting the chain brightly, in an attempt to see whether I was actually getting the chain sharper or not (I started hand filing a few years ago, after I found I could do it--"wintering over" on an Island, at the time, trips to the saw shop were not an option.)  If I really screw up a chain, through a nail strike, etc..., I'll go have it ground, but pretty much, I hand file.  I still find it challenging to correct a "hook" (cutting "in circles") by mere hand filing, but not impossible.  Anyway, the 100 watt bulb thing works for me--*I'd be curious if others had an opinion on my observation that a properly-sharpened tooth will not reflect light from the cutting edge....*

And you're welcome--but I believe I learned as much as I tried to share, in your thread, if not more.  And thanks for the kind remarks!
>

Goose:

Re: this:



> Most of the veteran cutters will tell you to sharpen a few strokes with a file after every tank of gas - I didn’t use to do this, but once I tried it, I now find it absolutely essential.  I won’t do a grinder unless I hit a nail or rock and really ding the chain up beyond where filing can fix it - hasn’t happenned yet… However if you are doing this, I would tend to say that your cup brush technique is a bit excessive unless the logs are so coated they look like chocolate mud dipped… The amount of wear on the chain from the bark dirt during one tank of gas won’t hurt the cutting ability enough to notice if you touch up after every tank.  You probably spent more time brushing the log than you would have spent sharpenning the chain between tanks - I find it takes me about 10-20 minutes depending on how hard I go at it, which gives me a nice rest from swinging the saw, and lets it cool down before refueling… (Not to mention embedding wires from the brush into the log, and what THOSE might do to the saw...)
> Gooserider



I must admit I never even considered the fact that some wires from the braided cup brush could get embedded into the wood, dulling my saw chain, but from the number of such wires that embed themselves in my T-shirt/belly area, I'd have to say you're right to raise this as a concern--thanks!

However, since I switched arborists, and the new guy drops wood CUT TO LENGTH, requiring only splitting, my biggest chain saw worries lately have been "How old is the gas in that saw?  Do I need to dump it before it deteriorates, necessitating a carb teardown?"  I still cut upstate, and to do yard maintenance, but that's usually with the little Poulan Micro XXV, or my 16-inch Poulan "Pro-line," and not the kick*** Homelite 360 from "back in the day."  However, I will be taking the big saw upstate this summer, as I am OUT of wood....

And while not "chocolate dipped," the logs the first arborist use to bring me sometimes had channels of mud 1/4" - 1/2" deep, in the channels in the bark.  I suspect I am somewhat less accomplished, as a hand-filer, than yourself...consequently, after I sweat out a decent-to-good sharpening job, I'm really averse to do what felt like "rototilling" in the mud-encrusted bark.  So I got out the cup brush, admittedly never thinking about my painstakingly-sharpened saw chain chewing on the wires stuck in the bark.

I'd bet you're right--you could probably hand-file your chain before I could roll a 7' x 3' in diameter oak log 360 degrees, using the cup brush/angle grinder every 18", all the way around.  But I'm not sure I could--LOL.  It takes me probably a half-hour or more to sharpen the 19" bar on the Homelite 360--and that's if I do it "right" and it's not hooking when I'm done.

Did I mention how much I like my new wood guy, who brings me dumptruck loads of bucked-to-length hardwood, sometimes cut from "standing deadwood"?

Makes up, in some tiny way, for the outrageous property taxes in the "Tri-state, NYC-metro area."

But Goose--I will try your sharpen-after-evey-tank-of-gas technique, when I'm cutting upstate again.  If nothing else, the practice should improve my hand-filing technique, right?  And thanks for the PPE pricing info/recommendations.  Those Matterhorn boots sound awesome!


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## Gooserider (Jun 23, 2008)

TruePatriot said:
			
		

> <trimmed>
> The 100 watt bulb thing is my own concoction--I just happened to notice this, when lighting the chain brightly, in an attempt to see whether I was actually getting the chain sharper or not (I started hand filing a few years ago, after I found I could do it--"wintering over" on an Island, at the time, trips to the saw shop were not an option.)  If I really screw up a chain, through a nail strike, etc..., I'll go have it ground, but pretty much, I hand file.  I still find it challenging to correct a "hook" (cutting "in circles") by mere hand filing, but not impossible.  Anyway, the 100 watt bulb thing works for me--*I'd be curious if others had an opinion on my observation that a properly-sharpened tooth will not reflect light from the cutting edge....*



I usually sharpen in daylight, so no bulbs for me, but I would agree a sharp edge on any blade shouldn't show...  However what I tend to notice more when I'm sharpening is that while cutting the chain tends to build up a layer of sap / crud on the surface of the cutters - If I've filed correctly, that layer should be all gone and the inside of the cutter should be one layer of clean and shiny metal. Doing it every tank means it only takes me about 2-3 strokes per tooth.  I check the rakers after every sharpenning, and find that I usually have to take them down about every 3-5 times.  The other way I can tell I'm doing well is that I should see some little metal filings coming off the file with every stroke.  Probably takes me ten minutes on the 12" bar Pull-on, 15 on the 20" bar for my Dolmar, and 20 minutes on my big 28" bar...



> Most of the veteran cutters will tell you to sharpen a few strokes with a file after every tank of gas - I didn’t use to do this, but once I tried it, I now find it absolutely essential.  I won’t do a grinder unless I hit a nail or rock and really ding the chain up beyond where filing can fix it - hasn’t happenned yet… However if you are doing this, I would tend to say that your cup brush technique is a bit excessive unless the logs are so coated they look like chocolate mud dipped… The amount of wear on the chain from the bark dirt during one tank of gas won’t hurt the cutting ability enough to notice if you touch up after every tank.  You probably spent more time brushing the log than you would have spent sharpenning the chain between tanks - I find it takes me about 10-20 minutes depending on how hard I go at it, which gives me a nice rest from swinging the saw, and lets it cool down before refueling… (Not to mention embedding wires from the brush into the log, and what THOSE might do to the saw...)



I must admit I never even considered the fact that some wires from the braided cup brush could get embedded into the wood, dulling my saw chain, but from the number of such wires that embed themselves in my T-shirt/belly area, I'd have to say you're right to raise this as a concern--thanks!

And while not "chocolate dipped," the logs the first arborist use to bring me sometimes had channels of mud 1/4" - 1/2" deep, in the channels in the bark.  I suspect I am somewhat less accomplished, as a hand-filer, than yourself...consequently, after I sweat out a decent-to-good sharpening job, I'm really averse to do what felt like "rototilling" in the mud-encrusted bark.  So I got out the cup brush, admittedly never thinking about my painstakingly-sharpened saw chain chewing on the wires stuck in the bark.

I'd bet you're right--you could probably hand-file your chain before I could roll a 7' x 3' in diameter oak log 360 degrees, using the cup brush/angle grinder every 18", all the way around.  But I'm not sure I could--LOL.  It takes me probably a half-hour or more to sharpen the 19" bar on the Homelite 360--and that's if I do it "right" and it's not hooking when I'm done.

You may be trying to get over fancy with the sharpening, I don't know...  My theory is that surface dirt probably isn't going to do that much harm anyway as it is going to tend to either get knocked off by the exiting wood chips before the cutter gets to it, or just get carried along with the larger chip.  Seems to me like you need something with "backup" to really be much of a problem.

Gooserider


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## TruePatriot (Jun 23, 2008)

Goose,

You could be right about this, here:



> You may be trying to get over fancy with the sharpening, I don’t know… My theory is that surface dirt probably isn’t going to do that much harm anyway as it is going to tend to either get knocked off by the exiting wood chips before the cutter gets to it, or just get carried along with the larger chip.  Seems to me like you need something with “backup” to really be much of a problem.
> 
> Gooserider



It wouldn't be the first time I got a little "over fancy" with a task.  I suspect I'd get diagnosed with "OCD" if I asked the right doctor--LOL.  

I hadn't considered the effect of the exiting woodchips insulating the cutters from the dirt--it bears thinking about--I will remember to think that through the next time I've got the saw "in the groove"--I can't seem to "model it" effectively just in my head, at the moment.  And certainly, you're right that things with "backup" (e.g., rocks) do more harm than mere dirt.  I just keep thinking about valvegrinding compound's cumulative effect, when pressure is applied.  I dunno--I'd be less concerned if I could sharpen faster, like you.

Happily, my upstate cutting is almost never involving dragged trees, so no impacted dirt.  The downside is--I'm the one that has to drop and limb them, too--LOL.

Take care,

TruePatriot


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## Adk Patroller (Jun 25, 2008)

> from Gooserider :
> As to Skip vs. Non-Skip chain, you are right that skip has less teeth to sharpen, but it also has fewer teeth to cut with - assuming the saw can pull the full bar of standard chain, you will cut faster with standard chain than you will with skip… Where skip gets useful is if you are trying to over-bar the saw, and run a longer bar than the saw can pull easily with standard, the reduced cutting load will let you get away with it.  (However it is definitely a case of whatever works for you)



The secret to making effective use of skip chain is to also change the sprocket.  By picking up a tooth on the sprocket the chain is spinning faster which helps counteract the distance between the teeth.  Those of us that cut for a living also use the skip chain on long bars to allow the saw to not work as hard in large wood since there are less teeth in the cut. If you are running a bar which is at the upper end of the recommended range for a saw, you can reduce the load on the engine by using skip chain and picking up a tooth on the sprocket.  For weekend wood cutters this is not such a big deal when blocking smaller logs.  In my case I am using a 20" bar to fell and buck 18" to 30" hardwoods on a regular basis, with one or more plunge cuts on each tree, so the full bar is in the cut most of the time.


As to the fellows that claim 10 hours between sharpening....you need to bring your file to the woods/wood pile with you.  Try touching up your chain every two or three tank-fills (if you don't hit a rocket of ground the saw) and you will be amazed at how much quicker and easier wood cutting is. There is not way you should get 10 hours of cutting time out of a chain with out sharpening.  Your saw will love you!  Your saw's  bar will love you!  AND your pocket book will love you with the gas an 2-cycle oil you save.


As to Stihl vs. Oregon chain:

One big difference with Stihl chain is that the rakers are set lower from the factory and this allows the tooth to bite deeper into the cut.  This may be why you feel that the Stihl chain stays sharp longer. This is what also makes a new Stihl chain kind of jumpy in hardwood when new.  after a few filings the rakers are at a level more similar to Oregon chain which results in a less aggresive bite.

You do know that you have to file your rakers occasionally to keep the saw cutting properly?

I highly recommend a good chainsaw saftey class for any operator from a group like, Game of Logging or Dan Tilman from Jonsered etc. You will be amazed at what you will learn in an 8 hour day or weekend as far as saw and chain/bar maintenance, proper felling practices and chainsaw saftey.  I have seen 50,60, 70 year old men that have been cutting for years walk out of these courses saying, "Man I wish I someone had told me ...XXXX... twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years ago


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## Gooserider (Jun 25, 2008)

Makes sense to me AP...  Hadn't thought of doing the sprocket change, but it makes sense...  

I hardly need to do it given how fast the saw cuts as it is, but I wonder if it would make sense to go up on my Dolmar 7900 when I'm running the 20" bar??  -  With the stock sprocket I have absolutely no trouble running the 20" bar at full throttle, it doesn't even slow down going through a red oak trunk...  I could probably go up a tooth, but would the increased chain speed be too much of a good thing?

In terms of filing the rakers, I find that I need to do them every 3-5 hand filings or so, and IMHO this is one of the better reasons to hand file - I don't know about other shops, but neither of the two places where I used to get my chains ground would touch the rakers.  (One was the local True Value hardware store, that sells some Husky and Stihl saws, and the other is my neighborhood OPE guy, who works on everything smaller than a riding tractor... Neither is a "saw shop" as such)

Gooserider


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## WoodMann (Jun 25, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> ........... Still expect to get more than 20 cords from a $10 chain.



With how much sharpening? not tryin' to knock Oregon or anyone, I too am just looking for longer cut intervals.............


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## Gooserider (Jun 27, 2008)

WoodMann said:
			
		

> Eric Johnson said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As Eric has said before, he sharpens after EVERY tank - doing a quick touchup of 2-3 strokes per tooth...  That's the proper cut interval - one tank per sharpening, but you get the MINIMUM amount of sharpening needed, just a touchup, not a major problem... It also takes off minimal amounts of metal, so the chain will last a LONG time...  The saw will cut at peak performance for the entire life of the chain as well...

The longer you go without sharpening, the worse the chain will get, and the more you will suffer from poor cutting performance - when you finally get to the point where you HAVE to resharpen, you'll need to take off a bunch more metal, so you get less chain life.  You also put a bunch of extra wear on the bar, sprocket, etc. not to mention extra work for yourself when you have to force the saw through the wood rather than letting it fall through...

(I used to feel the same way and looked for a long interval between sharpennings, took me a lot of convincing to change my mind, but now I will almost never skip sharpenning after a tank.)

Gooserider


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## Cluttermagnet (Jul 4, 2008)

aandabooks said:
			
		

> In Jerry's post above, ^^^^^, he uses a S52 when he goes to Wal-Mart.  http://www.amickssuperstore.com/ will sell you that chain for $9.60.  Tony will ship you up to $50 worth of chains in a flat rate Priority envelope for one shipping cost.  That will then get the price down to about $11 per chain.  They don't sell this chain at Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot etc.  If you can find a farm supply store that carries genuine Husqvarna products, you might be able to get close but it will probably be Carlton brand.
> 
> Go to his site and on the left side go down to Oregon Chains & Accessories.  Most of the people in this thread need to go to the 3/8 LoPro link.  I got a gguy I work with a few loops of 91VX 56 for his Poulan 2150 and he couldn't believe the time he was wasting running stock VG.  Most saws are sold with safety chain due to lawsuit concerns from the manufacturers.


...
...



> I ordered a couple of those vx chains from Amick's. Looking forward to comparing them to the stock chain (probably the vg) which came with my little Homelite 16 in saw. BTW I thought the stock chain wasn't all that bad 'out of box'. I'm sure the vx will be better, though. Will let you know how it goes...


I finally got my two chains from Amicks. Put one on the saw. It may not be until Monday or Tuesday I get a chance to try it, but I like what I see so far. The old safety chain has 18 teeth, also a 'bare spot' with one extra link between blades. The new VX chains have 28 teeth, no 'bare spots', and look pretty aggressive. I think I'm going to be really happy with these. Will post my results during the week.


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## Gooserider (Jul 4, 2008)

The key thing Clutter is to keep them sharp...  As said in a couple of the earlier posts, a pro-grade chain cuts much better when sharp, but doesn't stay usably sharp as long...  You need to learn to hand file and do a quick touch up (2-3 strokes per tooth) after every tank, and check the raker depth about every 4-5 tanks...  Do that and you'll think you have a bigger saw all of a sudden; don't do it and you'll be wondering why you made the switch...

Gooserider


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## Cluttermagnet (Jul 4, 2008)

Will do- thanks!
BTW I learned a lot from this thread. Love this forum!


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## Cluttermagnet (Jul 16, 2008)

I had my first chance to use the new vx chain Tuesday. I did indeed cut a lot more agressively, was quite pleased with it. And Amicks has pretty good prices, same or better than the local 'big box' stores which are the less effective safety type chains, and that's even after shipping cost.


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## aandabooks (Jul 16, 2008)

Glad your happy with the chain cluttermagnet.  The reason it would need to be sharpened more often than the VG safety chain it because it isn't riding in the wood on the ramps.  I got some for a buddy's Poulan 2150 and it turned that saw into a zippy little limbing saw.  He keeps trying to kill it but that saw just keeps on running.  He wants a bigger saw but is too cheap as long as the Poulan is running.


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## fire_N_ice (Jul 18, 2008)

To verify the Oregon Chain from the various stores, the only way to do this is to compare the UPC code (bar code). See if the numbers on the bottom match. Each product has a specific bar code. So you can not compare a 2 pack to a 1 pack suposidly. Also a model # if applicable.


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## WoodMann (Jul 21, 2008)

Heyu guys- as to file sharpening, is it of any use to go beyond 25*. My guide has 30* and 25* markings, but I wonder if going like 20* would yeild a more aggressive cut..........


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## Gooserider (Jul 21, 2008)

WoodMann said:
			
		

> Heyu guys- as to file sharpening, is it of any use to go beyond 25*. My guide has 30* and 25* markings, but I wonder if going like 20* would yeild a more aggressive cut..........



My understanding is for the most part NO...  If you are doing normal, mostly crosscut bucking logs to length, felling, etc. then you should sharpen to whatever angle is listed on your chain packaging...  As I understand it, most chains are 25*, but there are some designs that use 30* - however the chain design is the key factor, and you will get optimum performance by staying at the manufacturers suggested angle.  It is more important that you be consistent however than that you have the exact specified angle, long as you're close.

The only exception is if you are doing a lot of RIPPING - such as if you have a bunch of crotches you are trying to cut down, or if you are using a chainsaw mill to make boards.  In that case, they make special ripping chains that have a much sharper angle, or some folks will re-sharpen a stock chain - I forget the exact number they said to use, but I'm sure it would be on arboristsite.

One that HAS been reported to give a more aggressive chain is to cut your depth guages or rakers down a little deeper than the specs call for.  However this can cause your saw to be much more prone to kickbacks, and / or get bogged down due to overloading.  Generally it is reccomended that you only try dropping the rakers if your saw is on the large size for your bar, and then to experiment in very small steps to find out what your optimum depth is.

Generally the manufacturer is going to go to a great deal of effort to get the chain specs set so as to give the optimum cutting performance, I'd be leery of getting very far from them.

Gooserider


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## WoodMann (Jul 21, 2008)

Yeah- I tried filing the depth guages and ended up goging, prolly went too far with it. I've also found 25* to work best. I've got a big cut job, big for me anyways- comming up in a couple days..........


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## Eric Johnson (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm taking a tour of the Oregon saw chain factory at the end of this week and I'll let you know what I learn, if anything. Hopefully walk out of there with some free chain, at the very least.


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## WoodMann (Jul 24, 2008)

THink the light just went on, here. My chains dull much too quickly, I think. And they do- I'm cutting practically well seasoned wood, trees that have been dead standing for over a year.............


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## aandabooks (Jul 26, 2008)

WoodMann,

If your cutting dirty wood and standing dead would be considered somewhat dirty just because of the wind carried dirt that gets imbedded in it, you probably want to look at a semi-chisel chain.  The 91VS for lo-pro comes to mind.  20/21/22 BP for .325 and M72/73/75LGX for full 3/8 chain.


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## WoodMann (Jul 26, 2008)

Thanks, books- I'll look into that...........

Edit; how sharpeneable are they?


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## Gooserider (Jul 26, 2008)

Semi chisel pretty much sharpens the same way full round file chisel does.  It won't cut quite as well as full chisel even when fully sharp, but it will hold it's edge a little better.  Still should be touched up after every tank.  IMHO unless you are cutting real "mud-coat" stuff, I'd sooner stick with the full chisel and sharpen it regularly.

Gooserider


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## WoodMann (Jul 26, 2008)

10- 4 Goodrider, the pattern is full.....................


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## Cluttermagnet (Aug 10, 2008)

Further experience with my Homelite 16in/ 33cc saw, running that 'vx' replacement chain I got - I am *very * pleased with the more aggressive chain. It really did make my lil' entry level saw a whole new machine. The chips really fly! I was cutting some Locust on Saturday and it held up well and just sort of 'fell through' the wood, didn't need any pushing. It's doing just what it should be doing, and I am pleased as punch. I do hit the blades with a few file strokes, fairly often. I'm sure that will make a big difference.


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## WoodMann (Aug 14, 2008)

Well guys- I got the VX 91 chain, I'm gonna try it out tommorow..........................


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## WoodMann (Aug 15, 2008)

Got the chain on and going, it RIPs! Cans't say enough good things about this chain, the cutters are longer and therefore more material to absorb heat during a long cut thru a big trunk and doens't go dull fhalfway thru. Thanks for the advice guys, I have found nirvanah................


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