# I didn't know this: Cat vs non-Cat



## byQ (Jan 2, 2019)

Over the lifetime of the stove a non-cat can match a cat stove in overall efficiency. The cat wears out or gets clogged over time and the wood burner keeps on burning thinking its working fine when in fact it isn't.

"Emissions from both newer non-catalytic and catalytic wood stoves increase over time due to physical degradation of the stoves from use. Within five years the particulate emissions from a catalytic stove may reach the level of an older, uncertified conventional wood stove. According to a report for the US EPA, “over the normal life of the catalyst, the average performance of the heater will be similar to that of a non-catalyst heater that does not change its emission performance as significantly with time.”

I wonder how often the cat should be cleaned and/or changed out?


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## weatherguy (Jan 2, 2019)

Cleaned every year. Replaced every 10000 hours.


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## byQ (Jan 2, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> Cleaned every year. Replaced every 10000 hours.



10,000 hours = ~417 twenty four hour burn days

6 month burning season, 417/180 days = 2.3 years

So change it out every 3 years or less.


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## Ludlow (Jan 2, 2019)

They seem like a headache to me. The more I read.


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## jerrieric (Jan 2, 2019)

Just another government mandate to save the planet. I wonder how the forest fires in California hurt the environment compared to how many stoves are burning without a catalytic converter. Maybe the government should Outlaw wildfires


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## jetsam (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Just another government mandate to save the planet. I wonder how the forest fires in California hurt the environment compared to how many stoves are burning without a catalytic converter. Maybe the government should Outlaw wildfires



People like to angrily blame the gummint for the awful tryanny of forcing us to use EPA stoves.

Ever notice that those of us who have been around long enough to use both old stoves and new stoves are never the ones bitching?

That's because the new stoves are flat out better and you couldn't pay us to go back.

I could heat with an old Fisher or even an open fireplace if that's all I had, but I'd be saving up for a modern stove while I did it.


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## jerrieric (Jan 2, 2019)

jetsam said:


> People like to angrily blame the gummint for the awful tryanny of forcing us to use EPA stoves.
> 
> Ever notice that those of us who have been around long enough to use both old stoves and new stoves are never the ones bitching?
> 
> That's because the new stoves are flat out better and you couldn't pay us to go back.


Just be sure to replace your catalytic converter when it wears out in a few years


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## jetsam (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Just be sure to replace your catalytic converter when it wears out in a few years



I do replace it every few years. Beats the heck out of the old way.


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## Ludlow (Jan 2, 2019)

I think he meant cat stoves, not EPA tube stoves. . As far as the govermint, it is just a stepping stone. Restrictions will get increasingly tight until stoves are flat out illegal. Why do you think they use the word "phase".....Phase 1..... phase 2 .......Phase three.....no more stoves.


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## Joyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

I bet this is probably true on average. With my progress there is a dramatic difference if the combuster is plugged all the way. But what if it’s 10% plugged?  20% plugged?  Would I even notice?  Maybe. Would the average user?

I do know I cleaned the cat in a vinegar bath last week and seen a big difference in performance. I probably should have cleaned it sooner. 

My neighbor has two Blaze Kings that have burnt the combusters out of them. He won’t replace them. That costs money


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## byQ (Jan 2, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> I think he meant cat stoves, not EPA tube stoves. . As far as the govermint, it is just a stepping stone. Restrictions will get increasingly tight until stoves are flat out illegal. Why do you think they use the word "phase".....Phase 1..... phase 2 .......Phase three.....no more stoves.



You mean "phase".....Phase 1..... phase 2 .......Phase three.....Phase out." Before 'phase out' wood burners will probably have to buy something like a water scrubber machine (not invented yet) to connect to the pipe to make their stoves zero emission.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

byQ said:


> Over the lifetime of the stove a non-cat can match a cat stove in overall efficiency. The cat wears out or gets clogged over time and the wood burner keeps on burning thinking its working fine when in fact it isn't.
> 
> "Emissions from both newer non-catalytic and catalytic wood stoves increase over time due to physical degradation of the stoves from use. Within five years the particulate emissions from a catalytic stove may reach the level of an older, uncertified conventional wood stove. According to a report for the US EPA, “over the normal life of the catalyst, the average performance of the heater will be similar to that of a non-catalyst heater that does not change its emission performance as significantly with time.”
> 
> I wonder how often the cat should be cleaned and/or changed out?



The original quote (but not byQ) is pretty stupid and makes some pretty stupid assumptions like the user will not replace the cat when it wears out. As the operator of any stove I can do some other pretty stupid things like burning tires or rail road ties that will also cause more pollution. Or I could follow the directions and replace the cat every 10,000 hours. The cats just pop out like a cassette tape and are cheap.


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## byQ (Jan 2, 2019)

I thought cats were kind of expensive - like $300-500.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

byQ said:


> I thought they were kind of expensive - like $300-500.



Last time I bought one, 1.5 years ago, it was 186$ shipped including the gasket. Woodstock cats are even cheaper as they love to point out! There are some oddball cats that are more expensive but it is your responsibility before you buy a stove model to check the replacement cost of consumable parts.

I have realized a wood savings of over one cord per year since switching from a modern "high efficiency" noncat to a cat stove. That wood savings alone (there are other valuable benefits) pays for a new cat very fast. Easily every year if I'm paying market rate for firewood.


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## weatherguy (Jan 2, 2019)

byQ said:


> I thought cats were kind of expensive - like $300-500.


Depends on the stove, mines $175.


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## byQ (Jan 2, 2019)

Cats aren't that expensive.


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## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2019)

I'll bet that there are a lot that never change a cat, might even be the majority.

Even more burn wet wood, destroyed the cat in a couple weeks/months and never saw a day where they ever achieved the potential efficiency of the stove.

Same crowd that would burn up or out right remove any insulating blanket or baffle plate from their stove. Then those don't perform as intended either.


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## PaulOinMA (Jan 2, 2019)

byQ said:


> You mean "phase".....Phase 1..... phase 2 .......Phase three.....Phase out." Before 'phase out' wood burners will probably have to buy something like a water scrubber machine (not invented yet) to connect to the pipe to make their stoves zero emission.



I mentioned wood burning to my next-door neighbor.  He made some comment about pollution.

He used to drive a 500-h.p. BMW M6 roadster 2 miles to his office.  They now have a Porsche Cayenne S to get to the country club, and his wife drives around by herself in a 3-ton Toyota SUV.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Just be sure to replace your catalytic converter when it wears out in a few years


If you don't want to replace cats use a noncat stove.  There are plenty of them that are compliant.  And like said before the new stoves are just better


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> I think he meant cat stoves, not EPA tube stoves. . As far as the govermint, it is just a stepping stone. Restrictions will get increasingly tight until stoves are flat out illegal. Why do you think they use the word "phase".....Phase 1..... phase 2 .......Phase three.....no more stoves.


People say that with absolutely every reglation that comes along.  Yet how many examples can you give that have resulted in a ban?  I can give you lots where it ended up giving us far better products.


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## Joyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> The original quote (but not byQ) is pretty stupid and makes some pretty stupid assumptions like the user will not replace the cat when it wears out. As the operator of any stove I can do some other pretty stupid things like burning tires or rail road ties that will also cause more pollution. Or I could follow the directions and replace the cat every 10,000 hours. The cats just pop out like a cassette tape and are cheap.


Do you think the average person keeps up with it?  Kinda like changing the oil in your car. Some people change it religiously, some don’t. I have gotten a lot better at that since my car started telling me when to change it. 

When I had a small engine repair shop it was appalling to see the condition of most of the equipment that came in. People didn’t do anything until they had a problem.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

Joyboy said:


> Do you think the average person keeps up with it?  Kinda like changing the oil in your car. Some people change it religiously, some don’t. I have gotten a lot better at that since my car started telling me when to change it.
> 
> When I had a small engine repair shop it was appalling to see the condition of most of the equipment that came in. People didn’t do anything until they had a problem.



Wood burners are a very small part of the population and cat stove ownership is rapidly increasing but still a minority among wood burners. 

I have only seen two other cat stoves in actual homes in my life and both were well maintained.

I change the oil in my small engines too!


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## jetsam (Jan 2, 2019)

Joyboy said:


> Do you think the average person keeps up with it?  Kinda like changing the oil in your car. Some people change it religiously, some don’t. I have gotten a lot better at that since my car started telling me when to change it.
> 
> When I had a small engine repair shop it was appalling to see the condition of most of the equipment that came in. People didn’t do anything until they had a problem.



Hmm, someone who buys a stove because that's what the salesguy sold them? Probably not.

Someone who buys a specific stove because they did many hours of research and they want the best tool for the job?  They are changing it out every 10-15k hours.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Wood burners are a very small part of the population and cat stove ownership is rapidly increasing but still a minority among wood burners.
> 
> I have only seen two other cat stoves in actual homes in my life and both were well maintained.
> 
> I change the oil in my small engines too!


The vast majority of cat stove I see in the feild either have no cat or have one that is doing nothing.  Granted most of them are Vermont castings or dutchwests.


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## paulnlee (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> The vast majority of cat stove I see in the feild either have no cat or have one that is doing nothing.  Granted most of them are Vermont castings or dutchwests.


This an interesting thread since I might buy new instead of repairing my Harmon. Are you saying a cat stove can be run with cat removed?


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## ryanwc (Jan 2, 2019)

Nah, no need to phase them out.  Video drones will cruise over neighborhoods looking for smoke.  If you can't figure out how to run yours clean, you'll get your wood license revoked.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> This an interesting thread since I might buy new instead of repairing my Harmon. Are you saying a cat stove can be run with cat removed?


They can.  But they run like an old pre epa smoke dragon.  And in some cases it can damage the stove.  The good thing is most modern cat stoves are much easier and cheaper to maintain and run than a downdraft Harmon.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

If the choice was between freezing to death and running without a cat I would run without a cat. Sure it will pollute, sure it will not be as efficient, sure it could damage the stove, but I won’t be dead!

Honestly, a cat stove is a high performance machine that requires extra care to achieve that extra performance. If you aren’t willing to take care of your stove then you’re better off with a noncat since they tolerate abuse better.


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## mellow (Jan 2, 2019)

You don't HAVE to replace it every couple years, if taken care of and washed properly they can go up to 10 years.

As per BK website:
*
Q.  Do catalysts need replacing?*

A.  Yes.  After a number of years, catalysts can loose their efficiencies.  It is not uncommon to get up to 10 years or more service from a catalyst.  Burning well-seasoned dry cordwood only can best prolong the catalyst life.  If you are planning on burning boards with nail, paint or chemical treatments, or using your stove to burn household trash, you should not use a catalytic wood stove.  Of course, all catalysts installed in Blaze King wood models are covered by a 10 year prorated warranty.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

mellow said:


> You don't HAVE to replace it every couple years, if taken care of and washed properly they can go up to 10 years.
> 
> As per BK website:
> *
> ...


Yes that is true if you only burn 1000 hours a year.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

mellow said:


> You don't HAVE to replace it every couple years, if taken care of and washed properly they can go up to 10 years.
> 
> As per BK website:
> *
> ...



I believe that this is misleading at best and I'm a BK fan. There is some liberal use of the term "up to" going on here. I would go farther and say that the cat can last up to 100 years if you never burn the stove! Anytime you see a cat life expectancy in years then you need to know that there are some very specific assumptions being made about how much you use your stove and also what determines end of life.

The 10 year warranty from BK does not cover simple wearing out of the cat due to use which can easily happen after just a few years.


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## mellow (Jan 2, 2019)

Line 10 is the catch all:  http://www.blazeking.com/PDF/10_year_combustor_Extended_Warranty_Aug2012.pdf

What I have seen is they will swap out cats no questions asked for the 1st one.


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## paulnlee (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> They can.  But they run like an old pre epa smoke dragon.  And in some cases it can damage the stove.  The good thing is most modern cat stoves are much easier and cheaper to maintain and run than a downdraft Harmon.


Enlighten me please, why is my Harmon a downdraft? These Harmons(TL300) are not user repairable friendly which is why I'm considering new nextnseason. I personally don't care about the EPA until they can stop China and volcanos from spewing.
.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 2, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> This an interesting thread since I might buy new instead of repairing my Harmon. Are you saying a cat stove can be run with cat removed?


I have my Harman TL-300 for 10 yrs and has yet to need anything replaced.  If and when i ever need to replace the fire dome package it will be similar in cost to replacing a worn out cat. Well worth it for the long burn times i get, which are much longer than my EPA Burn tube stoves.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> Enlighten me please, why is my Harmon a downdraft? These Harmons(TL300) are not user repairable friendly which is why I'm considering new nextnseason. I personally don't care about the EPA until they can stop China and volcanos from spewing.
> .


Because the smoke path travels down through the combustion box which has caused problems for every manufacturer who has tried it.  

So your thinking is there is no reason to reduce pollution untill we can reduce all forms of pollution?  Can you give us a rational reason why that is the best course of action?


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 2, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> Enlighten me please, why is my Harmon a downdraft? These Harmons(TL300) are not user repairable friendly which is why I'm considering new nextnseason. I personally don't care about the EPA until they can stop China and volcanos from spewing.
> .


Down draft refers to the air movement within the stove. With the bypass closed,the flue gas exits the stove at the bottom of the firebox instead of the top


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I have my Harman TL-300 for 10 yrs and has yet to need anything replaced.  If and when i ever need to replace the fire dome package it will be similar in cost to replacing a worn out cat. Well worth it for the long burn times i get, which are much longer than my EPA Burn tube stoves.


No they cost allot more than a cat and most people struggle to get 5 years out of one.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> No they cost allot more than a cat and most people struggle to get 5 years out of one.


They were around $300  unless they went up.


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## firefighterjake (Jan 2, 2019)

byQ said:


> Cats aren't that expensive.



Unless they are female and need to be spayed . . . the males are much cheaper to "fix."


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> They were around $300  unless they went up.


The last one we did was almost 400 plus 50 or 60 for the gasket kit.  That was on a 4 year old stove and it needed a shoe brick and 2 side bricks that the customer was going to do.  That is pretty typical of what we see as far as maintenance time frames on them.  600 or 700 every 4 to 5 years.


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> The last one we did was almost 400 plus 50 or 60 for the gasket kit.  That was on a 4 year old stove and it needed a shoe brick and 2 side bricks that the customer was going to do.  That is pretty typical of what we see as far as maintenance time frames on them.  600 or 700 every 4 to 5 years.



Probably a good bit of labor cost too. 

Cat for the comparable princess is still under 200$ delivered and pops in like a vhs tape. Even cheaper for the Woodstock stoves.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Probably a good bit of labor cost too.
> 
> Cat for the comparable princess is still under 200$ delivered and pops in like a vhs tape. Even cheaper for the Woodstock stoves.


Usually only an hour unless bolts break but that is uncommon.


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## Diabel (Jan 2, 2019)

Weren’t the old Defiants all downdraft and quite reliable? Only when VC introduced the frigile refractory boxes the issues started......me thinks


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Diabel said:


> Weren’t the old Defiants all downdraft and quite reliable? Only when VC introduced the frigile refractory boxes the issues started......me thinks


They down drafted a little bit but nothing like the modern ones that cause so much trouble.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 2, 2019)

Diabel said:


> Weren’t the old Defiants all downdraft and quite reliable? Only when VC introduced the frigile refractory boxes the issues started......me thinks


The two piece Fireback design maybe could be called reliable. The original single piece design was a major design flaw and effectively renders all of them unreliable. Sure, there are probably a few folks on the original single piece Fireback with no issues, but that was not the majority. It costs about $800 in parts to retrofit the original to use a two piece Fireback, but you basically have to completely rebuild the stove. Otherwise the orignal defiant is still a finicky stove, but it can put out some serious heat.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Kind of like people buying hybrids they don't seem to grasp that where the electricity comes usually is burning coal


Some of the electricity does yes.  But the percentage is going down more and more every month.

So can you tell us why you think doing nothing until we can fix all of the issues makes more sense than working at a problem one part at a time?


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## jerrieric (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> Some of the electricity does yes.  But the percentage is going down more and more every month.
> 
> So can you tell us why you think doing nothing until we can fix all of the issues makes more sense than working at a problem one part at a time?


Because that's not going to stop India and China who are the major polluters of this atmosphere to change their ways. So why should the American people pay the price for something they can't fix.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Because that's not going to stop India and China who are the major polluters of this atmosphere to change their ways. So why should the American people pay the price for something they can't fix.



You can't stop yourself from aging. Might as well kill yourself now.


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## Diabel (Jan 2, 2019)

Weren’t the old Defiants all downdraft and quite reliable? Only when VC introduced the frigile refractory boxes the issues started......me thinks


jerrieric said:


> Because that's not going to stop India and China who are the major polluters of this atmosphere to change their ways. So why should the American people pay the price for something they can't fix.



I would like to know what you are drinking?


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## Dug8498 (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Because that's not going to stop India and China who are the major polluters of this atmosphere to change their ways. So why should the American people pay the price for something they can't fix.



Two wrongs don’t make a right. I was taught this back in preschool. Come on man...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jetsam (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Because that's not going to stop India and China who are the major polluters of this atmosphere to change their ways. So why should the American people pay the price for something they can't fix.



This is pretty off topic for this forum.

I don't want to always be the absolute worst human being in the neighborhood so that I can be sure that nobody else is getting away with being worse than me, though.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Because that's not going to stop India and China who are the major polluters of this atmosphere to change their ways. So why should the American people pay the price for something they can't fix.


But our air quality and water quality has improved greatly since the 70s.  Would you prefer we go back to the way things were?

Reducing pollution is beneficial even if it doesn't reduce all forms.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> They down drafted a little bit but nothing like the modern ones that cause so much trouble.


What kind of trouble? My Harman has been one of the best wood stoves iv ever owned. Iv yet to ever have any kind of trouble with it. Im comparing it to 4 different models from 3 different Mfgs that i currently own. Currently having a lot of trouble with the englander model SHSS 50.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> But our air quality and water quality has improved greatly since the 70s.  Would you prefer we go back to the way things were?
> 
> Reducing pollution is beneficial even if it doesn't reduce all forms.


Yea, these are the good old days in some ways.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> What kind of trouble? My Harman has been one of the best wood stoves iv ever owned. Iv yet to ever have any kind of trouble with it. Im comparing it to 4 different models from 3 different Mfgs that i currently own. Currently having a lot of trouble with the englander model SHSS 50.


I see lots of them and other stoves burnt by lots of different people in lots of different homes.  And what I see from most of the downdraft stoves is dirty chimneys and broken parts needing replacement.  Yes there are some like you who love them.  But most people can't get them to work right.  To the point that 2 of the 3 dealers servicing our area quit carrying harmans.


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## begreen (Jan 2, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> he cats just pop out like a cassette tape and are cheap.


$2-300 every few years for many people is not cheap. Lack of maintenance is one of the primary reasons for poor performance of older stoves.


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## MtnBURN (Jan 2, 2019)

begreen said:


> $2-300 every few years for many people is not cheap. Lack of maintenance is one of the primary reasons for poor performance of older stoves.



That Wyoming story was a doozy. Spend 3K on a stove and then burn it like a $500 home Depot stove. Well...as always...ya can't fix stupid.

Compared to my cat stove....my neighbor with an EPA tube stove easily spends that $2-300 per year on wood to keep his house warm over what I use....not to mention he has a natural gas heater that runs 1/2 the night because his non-cat won't burn overnight. Gas is cheap though. Certainly not as much as one of them "cats" in a 3 year span. Pffft.


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## AlbergSteve (Jan 2, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Because that's not going to stop India and China who are the major polluters of this atmosphere to change their ways. So why should the American people pay the price for something they can't fix.






'cause I've got to drive my chipped diesel dually to pick up milk and smokes...


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

MtnBURN said:


> That Wyoming story was a doozy. Spend 3K on a stove and then burn it like a $500 home Depot stove. Well...as always...ya can't fix stupid.
> 
> Compared to my cat stove....my neighbor with an EPA tube stove easily spends that $2-300 per year on wood to keep his house warm over what I use....not to mention he has a natural gas heater that runs 1/2 the night because his non-cat won't burn overnight. Gas is cheap though. Certainly not as much as one of them "cats" in a 3 year span. Pffft.


Many noncats easily burn overnight that is absurd.   And I have seen zero woodsavings after switching from a regency tube stove to a bk.  The fact is I work on stoves every day.  And many people do not replace their cats either because they don't want to spend the money or they cant


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## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

begreen said:


> $2-300 every few years for many people is not cheap. Lack of maintenance is one of the primary reasons for poor performance of older stoves.



Penny wise and pound foolish.

186$ every 3 years which is easily recovered three times over in cost savings by burning so much less wood. 3 years is about the minimum and only for a full time burner. 10,000 hours can take some people 10 years!


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Penny wise and pound foolish.
> 
> 186$ every 3 years which is easily recovered three times over in cost savings by burning so much less wood. 3 years is about the minimum and only for a full time burner. 10,000 hours can take some people 10 years!


I have yet to see this woodsavings you keep talking about.  Many people are burning wood because they can cut it for next to nothing and they can't afford to heat any other way.


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## jetsam (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> Many noncats easily burn overnight that is absurd.   And I have seen zero woodsavings after switching from a regency tube stove to a bk.



Yeah, but you are running it much harder than the sweet spot. If you have to burn it so high that you are only getting 8 hour burns, you really might as well have a tube stove, because the efficiency is going to be similar at such a high burn rate.

The people who swoon over their BKs are the ones who love the turn-down- 24 hour burns in shoulder season and whatever you want in the winter. If your BTU requirements mean you don't use the low range, you will not really see the good part.

(I would brag that I am still tootling around in the lower 25% of the thermostat's range in January, but that's due to freaky weather this year, not stove power...  47°F again tomorrow.)


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## rdust (Jan 2, 2019)

begreen said:


> $2-300 every few years for many people is not cheap. Lack of maintenance is one of the primary reasons for poor performance of older stoves.



I disagree, I think it’s cheap for the majority of people.(especially the ones that frequent here) Do the math over three years, at 200(my princess is less than that) it’s not even 6 bucks a month.  

It might be too much for someone who is burning wood to survive but that person isn’t spending 3K+ on a stove or hanging out here.


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## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

jetsam said:


> Yeah, but you are running it much harder than the sweet spot. If you have to burn it so high that you are only getting 8 hour burns, you really might as well have a tube stove, because the efficiency is going to be similar at such a high burn rate.
> 
> The people who swoon over their BKs are the ones who love the turn-down- 24 hour burns in shoulder season and whatever you want in the winter. If your BTU requirements mean you don't use the low range, you will not really see the good part.
> 
> (I would brag that I am still tootling around in the lower 25% of the thermostat's range in January, but that's due to freaky weather this year, not stove power...  47°F again tomorrow.)


Yes that is what I have said all along.  And I was labeled a bk hater for it.  They are great stoves but only in the right situation.  My house will  get there but it takes time to redo it all.


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## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2019)

Cheap or not the majority of people don't maintain anything, Fix when broken or toss it in the trash.


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## Rearscreen (Jan 2, 2019)

I've always believed that cats are smarter than non-cats.


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## jetsam (Jan 2, 2019)

rdust said:


> I disagree, I think it’s cheap for the majority of people.(especially the ones that frequent here) Do the math over three years, at 200(my princess is less than that) it’s not even 6 bucks a month.
> 
> It might be too much for someone who is burning wood to survive but that person isn’t spending 3K+ on a stove or hanging out here.



When you are taking an $500+/month heating oil bill to $0, spending a few hundred on new tubes/cats/gaskets/bricks/fans/whatever every couple years feels like a much smaller burden.  Add in the fact that you are probably keeping the house much warmer for free, and it feels like an even better deal.

You could do the same thing with a pre-EPA stove if you wanted to.

I don't- my back hurts enough. I don't need to go back to using more wood for less heat.

I guess I will say that I miss pitching junk mail and basically anything flammable in there, and seasoning wood for years is a big pain in the ass which we didn't used to bother with very much.  And the wall of heat from a roaring smoke dragon can be impressive to behold, for a few hours.

I guess if I did have to go back to a smoke dragon for some reason, I have learned so much from hearth that I would feed it dry wood, and mod it for secondary burning, so it would probably be better than what I remember.


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## jetsam (Jan 2, 2019)

Rearscreen said:


> I've always believed that cats are smarter than non-cats.



I tell my cat that he's dumb, and then I trudge off to work while he lies there and watches me go.

I can't actually hear him snickering, but likely he is. :|


----------



## MtnBURN (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> Many noncats easily burn overnight that is absurd.   And I have seen zero woodsavings after switching from a regency tube stove to a bk.  The fact is I work on stoves every day.  And many people do not replace their cats either because they don't want to spend the money or they cant




I'm sure many non-cats will burn overnight. However... I didn't  reference "many". I spoke to this one situation. This one stove I am familiar with that my neighbor owns that is a brand new tube stove. I don't paint like that (big brush). I speak to what I see/experience. Then you try to put extra words in there to make your point. So excuse me if that story doesn't jive with your expertise. Are you burning @ 7500 ft msl to know how things burn HERE? 

I'm glad you work on stoves daily to know-it-all about em and tell us where we went wrong buying our stoves that we are perfectly happy with.  

Hell...the fact is that I'm damn glad you have to go to work everyday cus that right there makes me go Bwahahaha. 

Color me impressed. Keep up the good work.


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

MtnBURN said:


> I'm sure many non-cats will burn overnight. However... I didn't  reference "many". I spoke to this one situation. This one stove I am familiar with that my neighbor owns that is a brand new tube stove. I don't paint like that (big brush). I speak to what I see/experience. Then you try to put extra words in there to make your point. So excuse me if that story doesn't jive with your expertise. Are you burning @ 7500 ft msl to know how things burn HERE?
> 
> I'm glad you work on stoves daily to know-it-all about em and tell us where we went wrong buying our stoves that we are perfectly happy with.
> 
> ...


I never said you or anyone else who has a stove that works well for them went wrong.  I just try to make sure people have the proper info to help themselves get a stove that works for them.  And many of the cat guys here throw out all kinds of innacurate info about noncats.   

And I am not sure what the crack about me going to work is about but I am proud to work and provide a much needed service for people so they can safely heat their houses.


----------



## NRGwave (Jan 2, 2019)

Joyboy said:


> I bet this is probably true on average. With my progress there is a dramatic difference if the combuster is plugged all the way. But what if it’s 10% plugged?  20% plugged?  Would I even notice?  Maybe. Would the average user?
> 
> I do know I cleaned the cat in a vinegar bath last week and seen a big difference in performance. I probably should have cleaned it sooner.
> 
> My neighbor has two Blaze Kings that have burnt the combusters out of them. He won’t replace them. That costs money




"That costs money" ….lol  

They operate less efficiently but do they still burn good or do they never engage the bypass?


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 2, 2019)

bholler said:


> I have yet to see this woodsavings you keep talking about.  Many people are burning wood because they can cut it for next to nothing and they can't afford to heat any other way.



In the case of survival heating you can get by with an nc30 and burn free wood. Not a bad way to go. I suppose a barrel stove isn’t out of the question when the most important thing is low cost.


----------



## Ludlow (Jan 2, 2019)

jatoxico said:


> Cheap or not the majority of people don't maintain anything, Fix when broken or toss it in the trash.





I had a weedeater that I did absolutely nothing to except abuse it. Never measured oil ratio, just poured it in by eye. Never cleaned air filter, left gas in over winter and just fired it up the next summer. It lasted 25 years. When it finally quit I gave it to my brother and bought a new one on sale with a coupon for $50. I treat the new one just the same as the old one. Dont want to risk it. 

Bought a used lawnmower for $65 over 12 years ago. Never changed the oil although I will add oil occasionally. Never winterized it. Throw it in the shed and the next summer fire it right up. I did have to replace the plug once. Took a long time to recover from that...


----------



## Mojappa (Jan 2, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> Enlighten me please, why is my Harmon a downdraft? These Harmons(TL300) are not user repairable friendly which is why I'm considering new nextnseason. I personally don't care about the EPA until they can stop China and volcanos from spewing.
> .


That’s the spirit.  Luckily for us if you’re buying new then you’ll be getting something that burns cleaner than the stoves our ignorant ancestors used.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> I had a weedeater that I did absolutely nothing to except abuse it. Never measured oil ratio, just poured it in by eye. Never cleaned air filter, left gas in over winter and just fired it up the next summer. It lasted 25 years. When it finally quit I gave it to my brother and bought a new one on sale with a coupon for $50. I treat the new one just the same as the old one. Dont want to risk it.
> 
> Bought a used lawnmower for $65 over 12 years ago. Never changed the oil although I will add oil occasionally. Never winterized it. Throw it in the shed and the next summer fire it right up. I did have to replace the plug once. Took a long time to recover from that...


Remind me not to buy any used cars from PA .


----------



## Don.S (Jan 2, 2019)

My gosh some of the cat guys here get upset if you say anything other then God him self created cat stoves in his image. 
I burn a big tube stove and burn it hard when it is cold out I pack it full three times a day. Not sure how a cat would help me at all other then put a little piece of God in my basement.


----------



## Joyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

NRGwave said:


> "That costs money" ….lol
> 
> They operate less efficiently but do they still burn good or do they never engage the bypass?


 I think he closes the bypass and runs it like he should except for the combuster part. Every year he cleans it himself. This guy is missing his leg at the hip. Harvests his own firewood, works on his own vehicles, works at a hardware store and is an all around impressive guy. He just doesn’t see the value in it. 

If I ever win the lottery I’m going to buy him a new ashford 30 just to show him how things are supposed to work.  Lol


----------



## Ludlow (Jan 2, 2019)

jatoxico said:


> Remind me not to buy any used cars from PA .


 No worries there unless you buy used cars that are about 20 years old and rusted away. My daily driver is 16 years old.


----------



## Joyboy (Jan 2, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> No worries there unless you buy used cars that are about 20 years old and rusted away. My daily driver is 16 years old.


And you’ve never changed the oil I’m guessing.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 2, 2019)

Ludlow said:


> No worries there unless you buy used cars that are about 20 years old and rusted away. My daily driver is 16 years old.


I'm a used car guy myself though I do try to keep up the maintenance and keep them garaged if possible.

On the topic, this crowd is not representative of the average burner. Not even close.


----------



## Ludlow (Jan 2, 2019)

Joyboy said:


> And you’ve never changed the oil I’m guessing.




One time. All the other times I paid a guy. 

I never subscribed to the 3 mo/3000 mile BS. Its a straight 5000 mile interval. One thing I am a stickler for is checking oil. Run a motor out of oil and it will blow up no ifs ands or butts. My cars usually break in half before they quit running. I dont see the need to change my ways.


----------



## ratsrepus (Jan 2, 2019)

After reading the last four pages, I'm tired. Goodnight all. hope i dont have nightmares


----------



## Ludlow (Jan 2, 2019)

Younz better get back on topic!


----------



## bholler (Jan 2, 2019)

Yeah I think this has run it's course.


----------



## begreen (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Penny wise and pound foolish.
> 
> 186$ every 3 years which is easily recovered three times over in cost savings by burning so much less wood. 3 years is about the minimum and only for a full time burner. 10,000 hours can take some people 10 years!


It is not penny wise and pound foolish, it is economics. A decent non-cat stove can go 10 yrs and only have a gasket replacement. Spending $1000+ for expendables over say a 10yr period is worse than having to rebuild a VC stove every 10 yrs.


----------



## begreen (Jan 3, 2019)

I got a request to reopen the thread. Didn't know it was locked as I just responded to the tapatalk email and didn't read the prior chatter. Now open but will be closed if it drifts badly again.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

begreen said:


> I got a request to reopen the thread. Didn't know it was locked as I just responded to the tapatalk email and didn't read the prior chatter. Now open but will be closed if it drifts badly again.


I dont mind as long as it stays atleast close to topic.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 3, 2019)

Good I was liking this thread. I don't know how well a cat stove would work for or maybe better to say how much advantage I could take of one w/o fouling my chimney.

I have 25-26' of exterior uninsulated liner. Too low and slow could be an issue but wonder what others would say.


----------



## mellow (Jan 3, 2019)

jatoxico said:


> Too low and slow could be an issue but wonder what others would say.



Depends on how much crud is being exhausted.  On a stove that is burning efficiently the exhaust should be fairly free of contaminants, the liner should be insulated so the lower temps do not create a draft issue.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

mellow said:


> Depends on how much crud is being exhausted.  On a stove that is burning efficiently the exhaust should be fairly free of contaminants, the liner should be insulated so the lower temps do not create a draft issue.


There arent any stoves on the market that burn clean enough that you dont need to stay above the condensation point.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> There arent any stoves on the market that burn clean enough that you dont need to stay above the condensation point.


Yeah of course I get that. But some cat stove can be set to run much lower than a tuber because they were able to show their emissions were still below the acceptable limit.

So while going for that 18 hr burn the exhaust temp at the stove top vent is too low for a chimney of my length. Even the 15' guys seem prone to fouling their systems if they're not careful.

So if I can't get the extended burn then not sure I would benefit.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

jatoxico said:


> Yeah of course I get that. But some cat stove can be set to run much lower than a tuber because they were able to show their emissions were still below the acceptable limit.
> 
> So while going for that 18 hr burn the exhaust temp at the stove top vent is too low for a chimney of my length. Even the 15' guys seem prone to fouling their systems if they're not careful.
> 
> So if I can't get the extended burn then not sure I would benefit.


I know i have allot more buildup this year from the princess in my 18' insulated liner than i ever had from the regency


----------



## mellow (Jan 3, 2019)

I had 25ft of insulated liner, when I cleaned it all I had was about 2 cups of fine dust after a season of burning with the BK.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

mellow said:


> I had 25ft of insulated liner, when I cleaned it all I had was about 2 cups of fine dust after a season of burning with the BK.


That is what i got from the regency.  I got easily twice that of flakes mid season with the bk.


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 3, 2019)

mellow said:


> I had 25ft of insulated liner, when I cleaned it all I had was about 2 cups of fine dust after a season of burning with the BK.


This winter of course has been different so far but usually we have extended periods of below freezing daytime temps with nights in the low 20's, teens and below. Is MD much different? Seems like it would be.


----------



## mellow (Jan 3, 2019)

We have been really warm this year compared to last year.  Last year we had around 8" of snow on the ground right now and lows in the negatives with the wind.


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 3, 2019)

Pattern change coming in two weeks, cold and snow for the northeast and midwest.


----------



## mellow (Jan 3, 2019)

Off topic: Hope we get dumped on, everyone laughed at me for buying a snowblower this year.  My shoulders can't take another year like last year with a snow shovel.  Lots of talk about another polar vortex end of the month / early next month.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 3, 2019)

Maybe stoves of the future will have a cat more similar to a diesel particulate filter with regen. During periods of high use a secondary air can be opened to burn the accumulated particulates and creosote. That kind of system would probably be way too expensive, but it would solve exhaust temps.


----------



## begreen (Jan 3, 2019)

Once again drifting. Weather threads in the Inglenook please.


----------



## Ludlow (Jan 3, 2019)

Feel free to delete my posts that strayed, or I can do it.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

begreen said:


> It is not penny wise and pound foolish, it is economics. A decent non-cat stove can go 10 yrs and only have a gasket replacement. Spending $1000+ for expendables over say a 10yr period is worse than having to rebuild a VC stove every 10 yrs.



So just in response to you bg, I think it is penny wise and pound foolish to complain about cat cost if you consider the value of wood saved against the cost of that cat. Almost everybody that has made the switch to a cat stove reports significant wood savings. Fuel has value and that savings should be counted towards the cost of the cat.

I don’t see why this isn’t obvious.

I do understand that every once in a while somebody doesn’t seem to save wood when burning a cat stove but most do. If you don’t believe that then a quick poll is in order. I save over 20%. 

Maybe I’m missing something?


----------



## ratsrepus (Jan 3, 2019)

I would have a problem if I had to replace the cat every year, but once every 3 or 4 years is no big deal.


----------



## ryanwc (Jan 3, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> Pattern change coming in two weeks, cold and snow for the northeast and midwest.


I kept the faith.  I knew this thread would deliver some good news for everyone eventually!


----------



## AlbergSteve (Jan 3, 2019)

My take is, you probably don't "save" wood if you don't have much of a shoulder season. It seems for many people on these forums that they don't bother lighting a fire unless it's cold enough to warrant it. We start burning at the end of September and the stove runs 24/7 until May-ish. We can do that because we can turn down the stove and let it cruise for 20-24 hours on low without cooking us  out of the house - we load it once a day and forget it. Now you're going to say if I had a tube stove(like my Regency f2400), I could just make a smaller fire. Yes, I could, but to keep a nice even temperature in the house I'd have to feed that stove two sticks of wood every two to three hours and for most people that just won't  happen. Even loading up for an overnight burn we'd be too hot in the middle of the night. Most of the time our open plan living area was over 27C. The joke around the house was "don't just walk in the front door, ring the bell because Steve might not be appropriately attired!" We wasted a lot of BTU's because we always had a window or door cracked open somewhere.

We really enjoy the convenience of loading once and walking away untill the next day. We really enjoy the comfort of having the house at 21-23C, 24/7 for eleven months of the year. With the tube stove, I hated getting up every morning to a cold house to make a fire and wait three hours for the house to get comfortable. Sure, I could just turn the thermostat on the furnace on to cover the cold spells when the fire went out, but why when I've got 16 cords of wood in the shed?


----------



## jatoxico (Jan 3, 2019)

I don't really understand the no shoulder season thing. I accept that a cat stove allows you to burn wood more often and at times when a regular stove would run you out.


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 3, 2019)

I agree with the shoulder season analogy, if your climate is 30s-40s for highs and 20s-30s for lows for 7-8 months I bet you can save a lot of wood with a cat stove. I burn the same amount now as I did with the BK but I have a hybrid so might not be a good comparison.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 3, 2019)

Cat stoves are better at some things, tube stoves better at others. Cat stoves seem like the way to go in a milder climate. If you have a well insulated house, a tube stove could work too as you would only need a couple of small fires a day. It all depends on how you like to solve problems.


----------



## Diabel (Jan 3, 2019)

My friend runs a non cat insert (1.5 - 1.8 cubic), beautiful visual effects, clean glass and emission while in secondary and coaling. He reloads about every 4 hrs. It works if you are retired perhaps.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

Diabel said:


> My friend runs a non cat insert (1.5 - 1.8 cubic), beautiful visual effects, clean glass and emission while in secondary and coaling. He reloads about every 4 hrs. It works if you are retired perhaps.


Well yeah a stove that small will have short burn times.


----------



## ratsrepus (Jan 3, 2019)

AlbergSteve said:


> My take is, you probably don't "save" wood if you don't have much of a shoulder season. It seems for many people on these forums that they don't bother lighting a fire unless it's cold enough to warrant it. We start burning at the end of September and the stove runs 24/7 until May-ish. We can do that because we can turn down the stove and let it cruise for 20-24 hours on low without cooking us  out of the house - we load it once a day and forget it. Now you're going to say if I had a tube stove(like my Regency f2400), I could just make a smaller fire. Yes, I could, but to keep a nice even temperature in the house I'd have to feed that stove two sticks of wood every two to three hours and for most people that just won't  happen. Even loading up for an overnight burn we'd be too hot in the middle of the night. Most of the time our open plan living area was over 27C. The joke around the house was "don't just walk in the front door, ring the bell because Steve might not be appropriately attired!" We wasted a lot of BTU's because we always had a window or door cracked open somewhere.
> 
> We really enjoy the convenience of loading once and walking away untill the next day. We really enjoy the comfort of having the house at 21-23C, 24/7 for eleven months of the year. With the tube stove, I hated getting up every morning to a cold house to make a fire and wait three hours for the house to get comfortable. Sure, I could just turn the thermostat on the furnace on to cover the cold spells when the fire went out, but why when I've got 16 cords of wood in the shed?




I like the 24 hrs duration also.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

ratsrepus said:


> I like the 24 hrs duration also.


I would to but my house would be cold if I was running 24 hrs.  

I have saved no wood after switching


----------



## jetsam (Jan 3, 2019)

begreen said:


> I got a request to reopen the thread. Didn't know it was locked as I just responded to the tapatalk email and didn't read the prior chatter. Now open but will be closed if it drifts badly again.




You can't close the 'cat vs noncat' topic anyway. It's like pulling bamboo shoots. Or perhaps more aptly, plugging leaks in sewage lines.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 3, 2019)

Diabel said:


> My friend runs a non cat insert (1.5 - 1.8 cubic), beautiful visual effects, clean glass and emission while in secondary and coaling. He reloads about every 4 hrs. It works if you are retired perhaps.


He must not load it very full. I can go 4-6 on my tiny .8 cuft stove. However, our house is tiny, so it doesn't take much to heat it. If our house were any bigger, we would have gotten a different stove.


----------



## jetsam (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> I would to but my house would be cold if I was running 24 hrs.
> 
> I have saved no wood after switching



Which is your heating envelope forcing you to run the stove very high, where there isn't an efficiency difference.

It's not the wrench's fault that you're using it for a hammer.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

jetsam said:


> Which is your heating envelope forcing you to run the stove very high, where there isn't an efficiency difference.
> 
> It's not the wrench's fault that you're using it for a hammer.


Yes but the regency of the same size did it with 8 hour burns.  And my house is far from abnomally leaky or poorly insulated.  It is an average 1100 sqft 1970 ranch with a finished basement


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 3, 2019)

I was thinking about ROI of a cat stove while washing dishes. What's the average cat stove run, $2,000+? It seems you can get a great tube stove for under $1500. In ten years you've spent at least $3000 on a stove and cats. 

I feel like cat stoves are really for people that have to have "the best" stuff. Like guys driving convertible GT500 Mustangs. A good driver in a Miata would crush it on a track, but the Miata doesn't have the WOW factor of the Mustang. Yeah, 14+ hr burn times are great, but my house would still be cold. Just like the 640 HP of the GT500 is impressive, for the two seconds you can go full throttle without killing someone. 

I considered a cat stove, but what happens if I break a cat during a blizzard and the power is out? Sure, you could run it, but at what cost? Also, I don't hate Mustangs, or muscle cars, I used to have a Mach 1. Just using it as an illustration.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I was thinking about ROI of a cat stove while washing dishes. What's the average cat stove run, $2,000+? It seems you can get a great tube stove for under $1500. In ten years you've spent at least $3000 on a stove and cats.
> 
> I feel like cat stoves are really for people that have to have "the best" stuff. Like guys driving convertible GT500 Mustangs. A good driver in a Miata would crush it on a track, but the Miata doesn't have the WOW factor of the Mustang. Yeah, 14+ hr burn times are great, but my house would still be cold. Just like the 640 HP of the GT500 is impressive, for the two seconds you can go full throttle without killing someone.
> 
> I considered a cat stove, but what happens if I break a cat during a blizzard and the power is out? Sure, you could run it, but at what cost? Also, I don't hate Mustangs, or muscle cars, I used to have a Mach 1. Just using it as an illustration.


I don't disagree  with you completely.  But cat stoves can be a great fit for plenty of houses.  And a cat isn't just going to break out of the blue.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

I think @Woody Stover gets more than 12 hour burns from his sub 1.5 cubic foot Woodstock cat stove.


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 3, 2019)

You should always have a spare cat on hand anyway.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I was thinking about ROI of a cat stove while washing dishes. What's the average cat stove run, $2,000+? It seems you can get a great tube stove for under $1500. In ten years you've spent at least $3000 on a stove and cats.
> 
> I feel like cat stoves are really for people that have to have "the best" stuff. Like guys driving convertible GT500 Mustangs. A good driver in a Miata would crush it on a track, but the Miata doesn't have the WOW factor of the Mustang. Yeah, 14+ hr burn times are great, but my house would still be cold. Just like the 640 HP of the GT500 is impressive, for the two seconds you can go full throttle without killing someone.
> 
> I considered a cat stove, but what happens if I break a cat during a blizzard and the power is out? Sure, you could run it, but at what cost? Also, I don't hate Mustangs, or muscle cars, I used to have a Mach 1. Just using it as an illustration.



If you’re one of those worst case scenario people then you just keep an extra cat on hand and pop it in if your current cat is destroyed by aliens. You don’t even need any tools most of the time. It does help if you let the stove cool a bit!


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I think @Woody Stover gets more than 12 hour burns from his sub 1.5 cubic foot Woodstock cat stove.


Yes but the btu output of that small amount of wood over that time would be absolutely tiny.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> You should always have a spare cat on hand anyway.



I’ve been thinking about getting a spare cat after hearing about Woodstock’s supply problems.

This is a real drawback. What if you can’t get a new cat?


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> Yes but the btu output of that small amount of wood over that time would be absolutely tiny.



It would be small for sure but if it’s enough then it’s a great tool for the job.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> It would be small for sure but if it’s enough then it’s a great tool for the job.


Yes you are absolutely correct.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> It would be small for sure but if it’s enough then it’s a great tool for the job.


But honestly 1.5 cubic feet of good hardwood only has about 270000 BTUs.  Even a very well packed stove will only be atmost 80% filled.  So 216000 at 80% efficency.  So 182700 BTUs over 12 hours is under 15000 BTUs per hour.  That is very little btu load.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I’ve been thinking about getting a spare cat after hearing about Woodstock’s supply problems.
> 
> This is a real drawback. What if you can’t get a new cat?



That was my whole point.


----------



## rdust (Jan 3, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Maybe stoves of the future will have a cat more similar to a diesel particulate filter with regen. During periods of high use a secondary air can be opened to burn the accumulated particulates and creosote. That kind of system would probably be way too expensive, but it would solve exhaust temps.



I certainly hope not, I work in the diesel industry and if you think replacing the current cats are expensive buckle up!  

I have a 2004 Silverado diesel pick up for hauling wood and my 5th wheel, I daily drive a 2001 VW Jetta TDI.  Both Pre-EPA07 for a reason.


----------



## Diabel (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I think @Woody Stover gets more than 12 hour burns from his sub 1.5 cubic foot Woodstock cat stove.



The keystone. I think it is slightly bigger. But it sounds like a great heater.
I think my VC performs at par with the keystone.


----------



## begreen (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> So just in response to you bg, I think it is penny wise and pound foolish to complain about cat cost if you consider the value of wood saved against the cost of that cat. Almost everybody that has made the switch to a cat stove reports significant wood savings. Fuel has value and that savings should be counted towards the cost of the cat.
> 
> I don’t see why this isn’t obvious.
> 
> ...


A $1000 worth of wood is a lot of wood. Some folks are on fixed or low income so this expense means something. FWIW, $1000 is probably more than we will have spent maintaining our car in 10 yrs.

The savings will vary with burning. When a cat stove is being pushed for heat the advantage and reduced consumption is much less. For some folks they are only burning with the stove pushed for heat so the advantage is reduced.

I am not anti-cat. For some folks it is a good fit, especially those that are away from homes for a long time and are trying to heat solely with wood. But they are not the best for everyone, nor a great saving for some.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

begreen said:


> A $1000 worth of wood is a lot of wood. Some folks are on fixed or low income so this expense means something. FWIW, $1000 is probably more than we will have spent maintaining our car in 10 yrs.
> 
> The savings will vary with burning. When a cat stove is being pushed for heat the advantage and reduced consumption is much less. For some folks they are only burning with the stove pushed for heat so the advantage is reduced.
> 
> I am not anti-cat. For some folks it is a good fit. But it is not the best for everyone, nor a great saving for some.



1000$ is not even enough to buy a one year supply of wood. If a guy is burning enough hours per year to wear a cat out in 3 years then he is burning 4-5 cords minimum. You can actually do the math on that one! Current market rate in the puget sound is 250$ per cord.

I think your math is in error anyway. Not sure where you got 1000$ from.


----------



## begreen (Jan 3, 2019)

It's enough to buy us more than a year's worth of wood. We only go through about 2- 2.5 cords a year.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> But honestly 1.5 cubic feet of good hardwood only has about 270000 BTUs.  Even a very well packed stove will only be atmost 80% filled.  So 216000 at 80% efficency.  So 182700 BTUs over 12 hours is under 15000 BTUs per hour.  That is very little btu load.



15000 btu per hour. Divide by 3.? to get into watts. That means his teensy output is actually equivalent to a 5000 watt resistance heater! That’s not nothing. How great it must be to have a stove capable of running so low.


----------



## Woody Stover (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I think @Woody Stover gets more than 12 hour burns from his sub 1.5 cubic foot Woodstock cat stove.





bholler said:


> Yes but the btu output of that small amount of wood over that time would be absolutely tiny.


Well, a bit more output than "tiny" but yes, it has to be mild out for me to get away with that in my leaky, thermal-mass house, even though it's only 1000sq.ft...like low 40s daytime, upper 20s at night. Then I can keep it within a couple degrees of 70 on two loads a day. Just Red Oak, not primo wood.


Highbeam said:


> What if you can’t get a new cat?


Yeah, I've been thinking I should have a tube stove as my backup, not another cat stove like I do now..


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> 15000 btu per hour. Divide by 3.? to get into watts. That means his teensy output is actually equivalent to a 5000 watt resistance heater! That’s not nothing. How great it must be to have a stove capable of running so low.


No not nothing.  It would heat a room in most houses


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## weatherguy (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I’ve been thinking about getting a spare cat after hearing about Woodstock’s supply problems.
> 
> This is a real drawback. What if you can’t get a new cat?


I still have my original in case of emergency but been trying to buy one of the new ones for awhile.


----------



## rdust (Jan 3, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> Just Red Oak, not primo wood.



  That is my primo wood!


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## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

rdust said:


> That is my primo wood!


Red oak is my average wood as well.


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## rdust (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> Red oak is my average wood as well.



My average wood is soft maple, good wood ash and red oak.  I do have some white oak and black locust in the wings but not enough to brag about.


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## SpaceBus (Jan 3, 2019)

I have a small stash of paper birch, maple, and ash, but otherwise I burn spruce because that's what's here. I'm very jealous of you guys with plentiful oak! I wish I had enough maple and birch to use as my primary wood.


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## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

begreen said:


> It's enough to buy us more than a year's worth of wood. We only go through about 2- 2.5 cords a year.



Where do keep coming up with this 1000$ figure?

Since you’re only a part time burner you also wouldn’t need a new cat every three years. Probably every 5-6 years due to your part time burning. It’s 52 out right now, you’re probably using your furnace. Not me.


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## Diabel (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> Well yeah a stove that small will have short burn times.



My VC is (I believe 1.8) and I can easily  get 12h from it (real heat).


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## Highbeam (Jan 3, 2019)

Diabel said:


> My VC is (I believe 1.8) and I can easily  get 12h from it (real heat).



You mean almost enough for one room?


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## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

Diabel said:


> My VC is (I believe 1.8) and I can easily  get 12h from it (real heat).


At 1.8 cuft over 12 hours it simply can't put out that many BTUs.  It is simple physics


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## Diabel (Jan 3, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> You mean almost enough for one room?



Correct. It is a space heater.


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## Diabel (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> At 1.8 cuft over 12 hours it simply can't put out that many BTUs.  It is simple physics


Agree. The 2.8 Princess seem to release similar btus but over a longer time frame (around 18 to 20 hrs).


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## lsucet (Jan 3, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Cat stoves are better at some things, tube stoves better at others. Cat stoves seem like the way to go in a milder climate. If you have a well insulated house, a tube stove could work too as you would only need a couple of small fires a day. It all depends on how you like to solve problems.


But that is the time that many don't have. Make 2 to 3 fires a day is something for retired people or if someone is at home 24/7 that can tend the stove. Including if you don't save any wood in comparison, the fact that you can run just one load or if is cold two loads a day is a big advantage. More for some of us that don't have any other heat sources. If I can flip a switch or program other heating source, I am sure that maybe I will see it different.


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## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

Diabel said:


> Agree. The 2.8 Princess seem to release similar btus but over a longer time frame (around 18 to 20 hrs).


Yes and burning that long I have found even in the mid 40s the princess can't maintain temps in my house


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## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

lsucet said:


> But that is the time that many don't have. Make 2 to 3 fires a day is something for retired people or if someone is at home 24/7 that can tend the stove. Including if you don't save any wood in comparison, the fact that you can run just one load or if is cold two loads a day is a big advantage. More for some of us that don't have any other heat sources. If I can flip a switch or program other heating source, I am sure that maybe I will see it different.


I worked full time and headed with a noncat for many years as do the majority of people who heat with wood.  It really isn't nearly as difficult as you guys make it out to be


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## lsucet (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> I worked full time and headed with a noncat for many years as do the majority of people who heat with wood.  It really isn't nearly as difficult as you guys make it out to be


Of course it can be done and I agree, but I believe that cat can have an advantage on those situations. The last stove that I have before the princess was 3.2cf if remember correctly. When I was able to packed full and give me decent hours, 5 hrs later everything start dropping. Stove and house temperature regardless that can had coals for 10 hrs or more. Now is more nice and stable heat, the house staying nicer. At 10 hrs mark now I can open the air and get flames and a hot fire out of what still in there and dial it down again. Most mornings that's my routine at 5:30 AM. I don't know but for me is way better.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

lsucet said:


> Of course it can be done and I agree, but I believe that cat can have an advantage on those situations. The last stove that I have before the princess was 3.2cf if remember correctly. When I was able to packed full and give me decent hours, 5 hrs later everything start dropping. Stove and house temperature regardless that can had coals for 10 hrs or more. Now is more nice and stable heat, the house staying nicer. At 10 hrs mark now I can open the air and get flames and a hot fire out of what still in there and dial it down again. Most mornings that's my routine at 5:30 AM. I don't know but for me is way better.


And I am glad that works for you in your house with your btu load.  But don't claim you need to be home all day to heat with a non cat.  It simply isn't true


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> I worked full time and headed with a noncat for many years as do the majority of people who heat with wood.  It really isn't nearly as difficult as you guys make it out to be


Are you still burning from your basement or is this on the main floor in the new house?


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> Are you still burning from your basement or is this on the main floor in the new house?


The basement is a walkout with living space including 2 bedrooms in the new house.  So yes I heat from the basement otherwise that space would be unuseable all winter.


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 3, 2019)

bholler said:


> The basement is a walkout with living space including 2 bedrooms in the new house.  So yes I heat from the basement otherwise that space would be unuseable all winter.


I don't think we gain an advantage with the Princess in our climate, one of the reasons I switched to the Progress Hybrid, it suits my situation better.


----------



## bholler (Jan 3, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> I don't think we gain an advantage with the Princess in our climate, one of the reasons I switched to the Progress Hybrid, it suits my situation better.


I don't think the climate has anything to do with there are lots of people who the princess works well for here.  It is all about the btu load.


----------



## lsucet (Jan 4, 2019)

I did benefited in so many ways. Control over undesirable temperatures, more control over of what is happening in there and more, more than anything, and the more inportant part is the family feel safer operating these stoves. I have to be sometimes away for training, sometimes 2 days, sometimes a week. They have no problems using these stoves. That is the biggest advantage that I gained.


----------



## bholler (Jan 4, 2019)

lsucet said:


> I did benefited in so many ways. Control over undesirable temperatures, more control over of what is happening in there and more, more than anything, and the more inportant part is the family feel safer operating these stoves. I have to be sometimes away for training, sometimes 2 days, sometimes a week. They have no problems using these stoves. That is the biggest advantage that I gained.


My wife never had a problem with either of my previous stoves.  Again I am not saying anything bad about your stove choice.  It is what works for you and that's great.  But that doesn't mean that is what works for everyone.


----------



## begreen (Jan 4, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Where do keep coming up with this 1000$ figure?
> 
> Since you’re only a part time burner you also wouldn’t need a new cat every three years. Probably every 5-6 years due to your part time burning. It’s 52 out right now, you’re probably using your furnace. Not me.


$200 every 2.5 yrs. For some that have stoves with more expensive cats it might be more. For others that burn less it might be less.  Like I said, different folks have different needs. For us it make a lot more sense to use the cheaper and much cleaner heat pump than to burn wood in mild temps. For us a cat stove doesn't make sense. We burn when the stove is able to operate optimally which normally means 24/7 burning from Nov-March. That's full time burning, not nights and weekends. But this year is much warmer than normal and we are even more grateful that we put in the heat pump years ago. On sunny days solar gain heat the house too. We have no need for >12 hr burn times. Point being, different homes all across the spectrum will have differing needs and differing lifestyles. In a cold climate or in a large house one might be burning their stoves at a high setting.

PS: I started a fire from overnight coals early this morning before looking at the temp. It's now 55º at 10pm. and 74F in the living room. No heat needed, period.


----------



## weatherguy (Jan 4, 2019)

bholler said:


> I don't think the climate has anything to do with there are lots of people who the princess works well for here.  It is all about the btu load.


That's why I asked you if it was on the main floor, if you had a King in the basement you might have different results. If I lived in the Pacific northwest I would own a blaze king, I would have a King or a Princess depending on the size of the house. We can have temps in the 50s in January and we can have then -10, a much bigger swing.


bholler said:


> I don't think the climate has anything to do with there are lots of people who the princess works well for here.  It is all about the btu load.


Sure, but I think they're tailor made for a more temperate climate. You might like yours better if it was on the main floor. I know a couple guys up here that have the King and they love it, low and slow in the milder weather and can turn it up when the frigid weather comes in.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> $200 every 2.5 yrs. For some that have stoves with more expensive cats it might be more. For others that burn less it might be less.  Like I said, different folks have different needs. For us it make a lot more sense to use the cheaper and much cleaner heat pump than to burn wood in mild temps. For us a cat stove doesn't make sense. We burn when the stove is able to operate optimally which normally means 24/7 burning from Nov-March. That's full time burning, not nights and weekends. But this year is much warmer than normal and we are even more grateful that we put in the heat pump years ago. On sunny days solar gain heat the house too. We have no need for >12 hr burn times. Point being, different homes all across the spectrum will have differing needs and differing lifestyles. In a cold climate or in a large house one might be burning their stoves at a high setting.
> 
> PS: I started a fire from overnight coals early this morning before looking at the temp. It's now 55º at 10pm. and 74F in the living room. No heat needed, period.



I might spend 200$ every 3 years for a new cat but I also save over 1 cord per year by burning a cat stove which saves me 750$ for each 200$ cat investment. I am just one data point and luckily there’s not that many of me! 

Don’t you understand? I’m sure you can see the whole picture.

I’m glad your furnace works well, but if you’re going to use my numbers then it’s only fair to show my benefits as well as my costs.


----------



## begreen (Jan 4, 2019)

I thought you were getting wood for a lot less than that. Didn't know you were buying cord wood all split. There is no argument that a cat stove is a good fit - for some people. My point is that for many others spending $200 every few years is not considered cheap. I spend less than that on my car.

PS: No furnace in the house. Just the heat pump system.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> I thought you were getting wood for a lot less than that. Didn't know you were buying cord wood all split. There is no argument that a cat stove is a good fit - for some people. My point is that for many others spending $200 every few years is not considered cheap. I spend less than that on my car.
> 
> PS: No furnace in the house. Just the heat pump system.



But you see bg, that 200$ gets you 750$ worth of wood. I know you understand return on investment. For every 200 you spend you get 750 back! Every 3 years!

Personally I buy green logs for about $125 per cord and process it myself. That processing adds value but even if you just use the raw log prices i am saving 375$ per 200$ cat replacement. I’m still ahead by 175$ every 3 years.

I own a noncat too. Have had a few at this home. They work, they keep many homes warm for less equipment cost.

That 200$ cat replacement will be the cheapest 200$ a woodburner can spend.

Do you at least understand what I’m trying to say?  We can both do math.


----------



## begreen (Jan 4, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> But you see bg, that 200$ gets you 750$ worth of wood


That may work for those burning low and slow. Most folks here with cats are reporting more similar wood consumption and burn times to non-cats when the stove is pushed for heat. It's not magic. There may be some savings, but realistically it's on the order of a few percent gained efficiency. We would gain little because in milder weather we would still be using the more efficient and cleaner heat pump. I'm not looking for an excuse to burn more, especially not with a black stove glass to look at. Well that, and our stove is paid for and will probably outlast me.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 4, 2019)

In my experience wood savings is much more than a few percent. 20-25%. Again, you should run a poll if you want to confirm this. From what I see, most folks on an annual basis save closer to 20%. It’s one of the reasons I upgraded. 

Yes, on an annual basis, not just “when pushed for heat” which should only happen on the coldest day. To compare apples to apples, when pushed for heat my noncat eats 3.5 cf of wood every 3 hours! I need a bigger stove in the shop.

I admit that my 20-25% savings is probably best case scenario. My home’s heat load is properly matched to my cat stove so it runs where it really can be impressive. 

If, for the majority of the time, you have to “push your stove” for adequate heat then maybe you need a bigger stove, better insulation, or a wood furnace! 

Thanks for staying up late with me bg. All the eastern folks are in bed.


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## edyit (Jan 4, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> 1000$ is not even enough to buy a one year supply of wood.



i would guess that depends on the area you live in, I get a mixed load of hard wood in log lengths for around 600$ i put some time and effort into it to css it but the exercise really isn't going to hurt me 



lsucet said:


> Make 2 to 3 fires a day is something for retired people or if someone is at home 24/7 that can tend the stove.



I work full time, 7 days a week, burning season starts in october here and ends around may, I load the stove in the morning before i go to work, if it's really cold (0F or lower) i'll throw in a half load when i get home from work, if not i'll stir the coals and load it again before i go to bed. none of these loads require kindling or fire starters.


----------



## wooduser (Jan 4, 2019)

lsucet said:


> Of course it can be done and I agree, but I believe that cat can have an advantage on those situations. The last stove that I have before the princess was 3.2cf if remember correctly. When I was able to packed full and give me decent hours, 5 hrs later everything start dropping. Stove and house temperature regardless that can had coals for 10 hrs or more. Now is more nice and stable heat, the house staying nicer. At 10 hrs mark now I can open the air and get flames and a hot fire out of what still in there and dial it down again. Most mornings that's my routine at 5:30 AM. I don't know but for me is way better.



If you are really concerned with nice,  even temperatures,  and low particulate Co2 emissions,  just use a condensing gas furnace,  or better yet electric heat.  Both are far superior on these metrics  to any wood stove on the market.


----------



## wooduser (Jan 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> . We would gain little because in milder weather we would still be using the more efficient and cleaner heat pump.



What my high efficiency wood burning friends ignore is that if they REALLY wanted high efficiency,  low pollution, low CO2 emission heating,  they would dump the wood stove in favor of electric heat.

I'm especially amused by those that don't want to be bothered by feeding the stove.  The way to really do that is to turn up the gas furnace or electric heat pump.

Actually,  I can expect that the government will be forcing everyone to do that as soon as they get the chance to do so.  Bye,  bye,  wood stoves!

The real environmentalist has been turning up their noses at wood stoves for decades  ----if not holding it.

By the standards of environmentalists,  we are all guilty of original sin.


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## maple1 (Jan 4, 2019)

begreen said:


> My point is that for many others spending $200 every few years is not considered cheap. I spend less than that on my car.



Umm, what kind of car do you have? And do you actually drive it?


----------



## Woody Stover (Jan 4, 2019)

rdust said:


> My average wood is soft maple, good wood ash and red oak.  I do have some white oak and black locust in the wings but not enough to brag about.


You know how burning that high-octane wood kicks the heat up another notch, that's why I said it was "only Red Oak," I didn't want to fudge the numbers.  If I pack in a load of BL, White Oak, Hickory or Dogwood, the stove top stays higher, longer, all through the burn including the coaling stage. I love Red Oak though; It's the majority of what's in the woods here, and it's what I mainly burn. It lights easier than the more dense woods, and also burns pretty long and coals well. All-around great wood.


Diabel said:


> My VC is (I believe 1.8) and I can easily  get 12h from it (real heat).





bholler said:


> At 1.8 cuft over 12 hours it simply can't put out that many BTUs.  It is simple physics


My "real heat"...about 10 hrs. it has dropped to around 250 stove top, then I can bump up the air a bit and push the stove top back up toward 300. That's enough in low 40s/upper 20s to maintain room temp. Disclaimer: I only leave the bedroom/mudroom door open far enough to have that area at 65, main room is at 70. Obviously it would take more BTUs to keep the vaulted bedroom at 70 also...


lsucet said:


> I believe that cat can have an advantage on those situations. The last stove that I have before the princess was 3.2cf if remember correctly. When I was able to packed full and give me decent hours, 5 hrs later everything start dropping


So that's when you went to the cat. And just to make sure you got the nice, stable heat you wanted, you put in two stoves.  How do you manage to load them both, _and_ hold a full-time job?


----------



## Nigel459 (Jan 4, 2019)

Wow, so much "civilized disagreement" in this thread!

C'mon everyone, every single heating situation is different. We don't seem to argue that cat stoves CAN burn lower and slower. Also, at max outputs, no advantage. Can we not crack this nut? It all comes down to logic:

Simplest terms. Consider:
- BTU/hr need of the house. Low need = cat can be good, larger need, see next below:
- The ability for the house to "buffer" any heat added, esp. in the main living spaces. I.e., the larger the house, more buffer. Heating from the basement, more buffer. etc.
No buffer = cat may be good, esp. in shoulder seasons when lower outputs needed, or more restarts and smaller fires with tube stove.
Lots of buffer = prob anything will do.

There's my first stab at a flowchart, I bet (hope!) we can put this debate to bed someday...

Case study:

My house is low need. Small, well insulated, sealed, open etc. Stove in open living/kitchen area. I burned my BK for one year in it. Worked awesome. On low mostly. Worked so well, I took it up to the cabin (ha). 

Decided to try a small noncat stove in the same small house this burning season. So far - just different. More temp swing for sure. BUT, BUT, a little LESS wood used with noncat than with cat... Why? because with the heat curve of the noncat stove, the average temp in my house is much cooler this year. I could be warmer no problem, but then I'd be opening windows and sending BTUs outside sometimes. Pros and cons. Ha!

So many different scenarios.

EDIT: forgot to add, I'll be putting a cat stove back in the house asap 
If only woodstocks were readily available (to me in Canada), I think the Keystone would be a great fit.


----------



## lsucet (Jan 4, 2019)

Woody Stover said:


> So that's when you went to the cat. And just to make sure you got the nice, stable heat you wanted, you put in two stoves.  How do you manage to load them both, _and_ hold a full-time job?


I always run 2 stoves at the time cause of the house lay out. Two pellet stoves, one wood one pellet, two wood stoves now. everything depend how cold is. if i can run just one on low on shoulder season the loading is every 24 hrs. I can do two load in one every 12 hrs if i want and run it harder or load each one and stay on an almost 24 hrs cycle. same amount of wood either way.


----------



## aaronk25 (Jan 4, 2019)

Ya I should probably be on a ad for blaze king.   In MN where it’s cold but 1900 sq ft, including tuck under insulated garage, is heated by the princess from mid sept until mid may, so 7 months of the year.   The cat stove is awesome due to low long runnning temps in the shoulder season, approximately 4 months of the season, so about 1/2.   

Then the cool part is for 2 months literally it’s run at 80% and 100% and 100% fan 24/7 for one month.   The great thing is it is such a versatile piece of equipment with its ability to operate on both ends of the spectrum.    If I was 500
Miles north where 0f is the high, I would put a boiler in.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## lsucet (Jan 4, 2019)

wooduser said:


> If you are really concerned with nice, even temperatures, and low particulate Co2 emissions, just use a condensing gas furnace, or better yet electric heat. Both are far superior on these metrics to any wood stove on the market.


I know how it feels cause i have NG furnace on the other house. I used to have a LP furnace here also. I got rid of it. With what i spent on all this stoves and hardware over all this years, I was able to install a new more efficient furnace. I can afford the LP bill too with no issue. It is just the adventure that I am into it. I like it.


----------



## lsucet (Jan 4, 2019)

edyit said:


> I work full time, 7 days a week, burning season starts in october here and ends around may, I load the stove in the morning before i go to work, if it's really cold (0F or lower) i'll throw in a half load when i get home from work, if not i'll stir the coals and load it again before i go to bed. none of these loads require kindling or fire starters.


It is not about have coals, with a good bed of ash, coals can be bury and last days. It was about the temperature swing. I have the same stove as you and it is the one i am planning to install in the shop when finished. I do like the Madison cute little stove and works good. I replaced it with the big brother back in the day cause of  a bigger firebox i was looking. For me is better than the big brother.


----------



## begreen (Jan 4, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Umm, what kind of car do you have? And do you actually drive it?


LOL yep, a Volt but only about 8k a year. The only thing it has needed in the past 5 yrs has been a rare oil change. Brakes are like new. Tires are good. So far out of pocket has been well under $150.


----------



## Mark N MO (Jan 4, 2019)

byQ said:


> Over the lifetime of the stove a non-cat can match a cat stove in overall efficiency. The cat wears out or gets clogged over time and the wood burner keeps on burning thinking its working fine when in fact it isn't.
> 
> I wonder how often the cat should be cleaned and/or changed out?



Can't speak for others, anyone that burns much wood KNOWS when things change in the burning routine.  Yearly maintenance keeps you on top of potential problems.  We installed a Buck 91 ten years ago.  In that time, I've replaced the door seal twice, the CAT gasket twice, blower fan and the CAT once.  A little cost for maintenance, but what I have a hard time putting a dollar amount on is the piece of mind having that lowly Buck 91 heating the house, day and night.  No problems trying to start a fire, no problems trying to keep it lit.  Just get the probe temp up around 500-600, close the bypass, go into cruise mode.  Other than an initial learning curve of how far to close the air down for the desired burn, it's pretty much stupid-proof. The insert does the majority of heating in our 1800 sq/ft w/basement.  A 96% efficient propane furnace is the back-up.  The wood comes from our land, and includes red and white oak, hedge, hickory, walnut, and other non primo species.

For us, the Buck 91 was exactly what we were looking for.  This season, it has been producing heat, 24/7 since late October.  Might have been an afternoon or two that the blower kicked off, but there was more than enough coals to rekindle the new load of wood.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 4, 2019)

Pfft, that's not driving. 

Our 2017 Civic now has 60,000+ kms on it. Our 2006 has 510,000.


----------



## begreen (Jan 4, 2019)

maple1 said:


> Pfft, that's not driving.
> 
> Our 2017 Civic now has 60,000+ kms on it. Our 2006 has 510,000.


 We have a second vehicle too and use public transportation a lot. The car is mostly for short local trips and traveling. The truck is for truck stuff. Modern vehicle maintenance costs have dropped a lot and electric vehicles' are even lower.

Point being that just like stoves, everyone's needs and costs are different.


----------



## wooduser (Jan 4, 2019)

If you are really concerned with nice, even temperatures, and low particulate Co2 emissions, just use a condensing gas furnace, or better yet electric heat. Both are far superior on these metrics to any wood stove on the market.
I know how it feels cause i have NG furnace on the other house. I used to have a LP furnace here also. I got rid of it. With what i spent on all this stoves and hardware over all this years, I was able to install a new more efficient furnace. I can afford the LP bill too with no issue. It is just the adventure that I am into it. I like it.

I agree and that's my prime motivation as well.

I'm a firebug and I LIKE fussing with my stove. 

I just threw in a bunch of 1/4" x 4" cedar scrap that I  cut to suitable length on my table saw.  It's a nice sunny day today and we'll probably see 50 degrees,  so it doesn't take much. The lumber yard a half mile from me keeps me well supplied with a wide variety of types of wood. 

I also  washed a load of clothes using rain water from my rain barrels today and just hung them out to dry on my solar clothes dryer.

Life just isn't hard enough for my taste these days.


----------



## PabloK (Feb 11, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I believe that this is misleading at best and I'm a BK fan. There is some liberal use of the term "up to" going on here. I would go farther and say that the cat can last up to 100 years if you never burn the stove! Anytime you see a cat life expectancy in years then you need to know that there are some very specific assumptions being made about how much you use your stove and also what determines end of life.
> 
> The 10 year warranty from BK does not cover simple wearing out of the cat due to use which can easily happen after just a few years.



I just bought a FireplaceX flush mount hybrid. The dealer told me to extend the life of the catalyst don't burn paper, garbage (of course) or basically anything that isn't wood. I can't imagine a little paper to start a fire is a big issue because the bypass will be open, but I guess some could get up in the cat. Has anyone heard that before and what do folks with a cat stove use to start their fires? Are the wax fire starter things ok? I'm been using a little torch which is the funnest way to light a fire.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 12, 2019)

PabloK said:


> I just bought a FireplaceX flush mount hybrid. The dealer told me to extend the life of the catalyst don't burn paper, garbage (of course) or basically anything that isn't wood. I can't imagine a little paper to start a fire is a big issue because the bypass will be open, but I guess some could get up in the cat. Has anyone heard that before and what do folks with a cat stove use to start their fires? Are the wax fire starter things ok? I'm been using a little torch which is the funnest way to light a fire.



Its glossy paper.. regular print is ok to burn
 Glosdy paper is a no no


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## Highbeam (Feb 12, 2019)

PabloK said:


> I just bought a FireplaceX flush mount hybrid. The dealer told me to extend the life of the catalyst don't burn paper, garbage (of course) or basically anything that isn't wood. I can't imagine a little paper to start a fire is a big issue because the bypass will be open, but I guess some could get up in the cat. Has anyone heard that before and what do folks with a cat stove use to start their fires? Are the wax fire starter things ok? I'm been using a little torch which is the funnest way to light a fire.



I am having excellent luck with a torch. The little press to light map/lpg torches for plumbing. Super cheap, effective, fast, fun, and you can use them to heat the flue if needed.


----------



## SpaceBus (Feb 12, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> I am having excellent luck with a torch. The little press to light map/lpg torches for plumbing. Super cheap, effective, fast, fun, and you can use them to heat the flue if needed.



I keep forgetting to pick one up whenever I go to the hardware store. A friend of mine has one and I used it to light their stove. I really want one.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 12, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I keep forgetting to pick one up whenever I go to the hardware store. A friend of mine has one and I used it to light their stove. I really want one.



I'm  using one.. like 15 seconds in the kindling pile and its going good


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## paulnlee (Feb 12, 2019)

This is amazing. I can drop a stick match in and away it goes. Mapp gas to light the kindling??????


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## SpaceBus (Feb 12, 2019)

I like the torch because you don't really need kindling if your firewood isn't huge.


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## Highbeam (Feb 12, 2019)

paulnlee said:


> This is amazing. I can drop a stick match in and away it goes. Mapp gas to light the kindling??????



Mapp gas torches work with lpg. When you buy the torch it often comes with a bottle of mapp gas. You can use the mapp or save it for later and use green camping bottle of propane instead. 

You don’t need matches, only a couple pieces of kindling if you’re in a hurry, or just torch the splits!

I’ve been refilling the green 1# bottles for years so each one costs me 20 cents to refill and lasts for most of the winter.


----------



## mellow (Feb 12, 2019)

Lowes has a $15 trigger start torch head that goes on the green bottles, works great.  Its by the welding stuff up near the tools.


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## Highbeam (Feb 12, 2019)

mellow said:


> Lowes has a $15 trigger start torch head that goes on the green bottles, works great.  Its by the welding stuff up near the tools.



I’ve been considering buying a second one so that I can have one for each stove.

They are also great for starting cardboard if you ever wanted to burn some in the fire pit.


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## mellow (Feb 12, 2019)

I have one in my camper that I use for starting bonfires while I am camping, works great.  Got one for home as well since I would often forget to put it back where I got it from.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 12, 2019)

I have a true value and a Hammond Lumber, everything else is over an hour. I'll have to see if they have anything like the trigger torch for refillable bottles.


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## weatherguy (Feb 12, 2019)

I gotta get one if these torches you guys are talking about, sounds like more fun that kindling and a super cedar.


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## PabloK (Feb 13, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> I gotta get one if these torches you guys are talking about, sounds like more fun that kindling and a super cedar.



Torch is super easy and fun, but I'd still like an alternative fire starter, other than paper. Preferably something I can make or isn't too expensive or toxic. I've seen people making lint, wax and egg carton starters, but that seems like it may fit into the burning garbage scenario. Any recommendations?


----------



## SpaceBus (Feb 13, 2019)

PabloK said:


> Torch is super easy and fun, but I'd still like an alternative fire starter, other than paper. Preferably something I can make or isn't too expensive or toxic. I've seen people making lint, wax and egg carton starters, but that seems like it may fit into the burning garbage scenario. Any recommendations?



Is the torch super toxic? I hadn't considered this possibility.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2019)

PabloK said:


> Torch is super easy and fun, but I'd still like an alternative fire starter, other than paper. Preferably something I can make or isn't too expensive or toxic. I've seen people making lint, wax and egg carton starters, but that seems like it may fit into the burning garbage scenario. Any recommendations?



What are you wanting to get away from by getting away from using paper?

Can't think of anything easier, less expensive, less toxic or that works much better than a couple balls of newsprint. I use that on the bottom, another couple on top that get lit first to get heat going up the chimney good - and use a trigger torch to light them up.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Is the torch super toxic? I hadn't considered this possibility.



No.


----------



## EbS-P (Feb 13, 2019)

Fascinating reading for the last 8 pages. Thought I would add my two cents as a non cat owner. 

I think a cat stove is a great piece of engineering.  Heat output control at the touch of an input control is a great feature. While I can’t dial it down I do have a good deal of control with my particular installation, a deep set hearth mounted stove with interior chimney and a blower.  No I can’t do 20 hour reload times but choosing lower BTU wood smallers I essentially have a masonary heater that after two small short fires with the blower off will throw heat for 8-10 hours. If it’s real cold I load it full of dogwood and and crank up the blower. 

I’m reminded of the story my father in-law tells about how much his aunt hated the new electric cook stove and made  them put them her wood cook stove in the summer  kitchen complete with her wood rack that contained many different species and sizes of wood that she would select depending on what she was cooking. Small birch for morning eggs... ect.. 

My take is every stove is unique and no to installations are equivalent. All of them require some user input to operate and a cost to maintain for the life of the stove. Back to the OP and emissions I think the real question should be is the EPA testing protocol adequate?  It’s a lab test intended to reduce harm to the earth.  They have a standard fuel efficiency test that specifies tire pressure. I know for a fact that my tires aren’t inflated to spec. I know I could have purchased a car with better mileage. In the end I chose what would work best for me and I know how to keep it running as efficiently as possible when I MAKE the decision to do so.  In the end the user has the biggest impact on efficiency. How many times a day week is a OPer asked the moisture content of the wood they are burning, or if their chimney is to spec?  

Thanks for a good morning read. 

Evan


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 13, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> I gotta get one if these torches you guys are talking about, sounds like more fun that kindling and a super cedar.


You dont even need paper if you use s torch. lights the kindling off to a blaze in seconds.


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 13, 2019)

EbS-P said:


> No I can’t do 20 hour reload times but choosing lower BTU wood smallers I essentially have a masonary heater that after two small short fires with the blower off will throw heat for 8-10 hours. If it’s real cold I load it full of dogwood and and crank up the blower.
> Evan


I love that setup. I was thinking of building some kind of fireplace looking structure with about 2 ton of stone products
 and neatly locate my freestanding stove into it ,as a heat sink. Let the stone take up all that excess heat and give it up later over time.


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## weatherguy (Feb 13, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I love that setup. I was thinking of building some kind of fireplace looking structure with about 2 ton of stone products
> and neatly locate my freestanding stove into it ,as a heat sink. Let the stone take up all that excess heat and give it up later over time.





Seasoned Oak said:


> I love that setup. I was thinking of building some kind of fireplace looking structure with about 2 ton of stone products
> and neatly locate my freestanding stove into it ,as a heat sink. Let the stone take up all that excess heat and give it up later over time.


That's kind of how my set up works. Stove in a fireplace and heats all the stone in the fireplace  I can even feel warm stones upstairs, when I let the stove go out the stones radiate heat for hours.


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## Ashful (Feb 13, 2019)

weatherguy said:


> That's kind of how my set up works. Stove in a fireplace and heats all the stone in the fireplace  I can even feel warm stones upstairs, when I let the stove go out the stones radiate heat for hours.



Same here, except increase Seasoned Oak’s 2 tons to 1 million pounds for the stone part of my house.  Unfortunately, due to the greater temperature difference being on the outside face of the stone, more net energy is radiated in that direction.


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## jetsam (Feb 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Is the torch super toxic? I hadn't considered this possibility.



Much cleaner than burning wood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane


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## Highbeam (Feb 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Is the torch super toxic? I hadn't considered this possibility.



Toxicity is all about the dose. Water is toxic if you drink enough.

One drawback to the torch, it’s loud. For those 10 seconds or whatever it takes, you’ll have to raise your voice to communicate verbally.


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## PabloK (Feb 13, 2019)

maple1 said:


> What are you wanting to get away from by getting away from using paper?
> 
> Can't think of anything easier, less expensive, less toxic or that works much better than a couple balls of newsprint. I use that on the bottom, another couple on top that get lit first to get heat going up the chimney good - and use a trigger torch to light them up.



Well, originally because the vendor said to not use paper to protect the cat. I think I will start using it because of the points you make and it doesn't seem like it should hurt the cat with just the startup. I'm trying to void having to buy "stuff" to light the fire, which includes another benzo tank when this one goes out.


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## PabloK (Feb 13, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Is the torch super toxic? I hadn't considered this possibility.



Like others have said, it's not toxic. My toxic criteria was in reference to other starters, some of which seem like they have more chemicals in them than necessary.


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## maple1 (Feb 13, 2019)

PabloK said:


> Well, originally because the vendor said to not use paper to protect the cat. I think I will start using it because of the points you make and it doesn't seem like it should hurt the cat with just the startup. I'm trying to void having to buy "stuff" to light the fire, which includes another benzo tank when this one goes out.



Paper + cats is something I don't know anything about. Maybe someone else will chime in. Newsprint will make a bit of ash.

Are you having to do a lot of cold starts? No hot coals left to load on?


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## Ashful (Feb 13, 2019)

Guys, real cat stoves only need to be lit once per year.  So why all the worry?


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## Seasoned Oak (Feb 13, 2019)

Ashful said:


> Unfortunately, due to the greater temperature difference being on the outside face of the stone, more net energy is radiated in that direction.


Definitely advantages to having the entire concrete structure inside the thermal envelope. Like a masonry stove.


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## bholler (Feb 13, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Definitely advantages to having the entire concrete structure inside the thermal envelope. Like a masonry stove.


His thermal envelope is the masonry structure


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## SpaceBus (Feb 13, 2019)

PabloK said:


> Well, originally because the vendor said to not use paper to protect the cat. I think I will start using it because of the points you make and it doesn't seem like it should hurt the cat with just the startup. I'm trying to void having to buy "stuff" to light the fire, which includes another benzo tank when this one goes out.



I do agree, it would be better if there were some kind of super easy fire starter that doesn't require stuff. I like using Birch bark, but I've used a ton more than I thought I would need and my seemingly endless supply doesn't seem to be as endless as I thought. Newspaper also requires me to leave my house, so I might as well get a torch at that point. Sometimes I use a wood carving knife to make some shavings to light my kindling, but that only works when I have kindling, and it's work. I see a lot of hooplah about the Super Cedars, but I don't know.


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I see a lot of hooplah about the Super Cedars, but I don't know.



SuperCedars are great, my favorite fire starter, but they’re a luxury.  Those saving $1000 per year on their heating bill might afford themselves the luxury of a pre-made firestarter, but it’s by no means a necessity.  Newspaper and kindling still works fine, if you don’t mind making kindling.


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## begreen (Feb 14, 2019)

If you are splitting your own wood, you are making kindling. We have boxes of scraps from splitting. Another great source of free kindling is cabinet making and wood trim shops. And also flooring installation shops, though you must get only unfinished scraps and may want to split them in half with a hatchet.


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## Highbeam (Feb 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I see a lot of hooplah about the Super Cedars, but I don't know.



Those things are actually made at a factory close to me and the manufacturer used to post here. Great outfit and product. Blaze king used to, or maybe still does, include a supercedar with the new stove so it's safe to assume that they are approved for use in a BK cat stove. All that said, the supercedars are like the tenderloin steak of the firestarter world. Very expensive compared to the alternatives but if your budget is like 2000$ for fire starters then whether you spend 50 cents or 50$ per year doesn't really matter.

You can buy little sawdust/wax firestarter blocks at walmart and chop them up into golf ball sized chunks that can be lit with a match. Those worked for me for several years. 

We kids don't get newspapers anymore and you're not supposed to burn colored stuff or plastic which is the junkmail we do get.

In my climate and with the 9 month long burn season I light a lot of fires. It's part of heating 100% with wood heat in the warmer parts of the year.


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## Ashful (Feb 14, 2019)

Highbeam said:


> Those things are actually made by me...



What did I miss?!?

Edit:  lol... I see you fixed your post!


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## Highbeam (Feb 14, 2019)

Ashful said:


> What did I miss?!?
> 
> Edit:  lol... I see you fixed your post!



I tend to post and then reread immediately, that statement could easily be interpreted the wrong way so I fixed it within a minute. You were fast!

Maybe in my next career making something cool like supercedars would be fun. Not sure I can do nothing after I wrap it up at the current occupation.


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## moresnow (Feb 14, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> I see a lot of hooplah about the Super Cedars, but I don't know.



Think about not ever needing to make, gather or store kindling again. No more paper fire starter. Etc. The S.C. hoopla is genuine. 1/4 of a puck inserted in a full load of large dry splits and its off and running. No muss, no fuss. Order a box and try them. Then you can form your own opinion. FWIW!


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## lsucet (Feb 14, 2019)

For me after trying many ways, supercedar cuts the time of having everything going and running quick. Torch requires kindling and time, newsparper, well, time consuming too. Running two stoves and letting one going out if weather is not bad, I do a lot of lighting on one of them. After trying different ways, I just need a piece almost on top and a little piece on each side of the load and shut the door and walk away. Everything catch good.
Most of the time i use the kindling when the coal bed is almost gone and just toss some pieces on top of coals to make it catch quick. I know is not cheap but works great. I feel that with the torch I have to tend more the fire and sometime closing the door it goes out.


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## Tennessee.Pilgrim (Jul 23, 2019)

As I look for a new stove, I have stayed away from even looking at Cat stoves.
But the performance of the Blaze King Ashford 30.2 looks very good to me and it comes with a 10 warrantee on the Combuster.


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## bholler (Jul 23, 2019)

Tennessee.Pilgrim said:


> As I look for a new stove, I have stayed away from even looking at Cat stoves.
> But the performance of the Blaze King Ashford 30.2 looks very good to me and it comes with a 10 warrantee on the Combuster.


Yes but it won't last 10 years.  You will probably replace it 3 times in 10 years.  Only the first will be covered


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## Seasoned Oak (Jul 23, 2019)

bholler said:


> Yes but it won't last 10 years.  You will probably replace it 3 times in 10 years.  Only the first will be covered


With that kind of warranty they can cover it for 100 yrs knowing they are only on the hook for 1.


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## Ashful (Jul 23, 2019)

bholler said:


> You will probably replace it 3 times in 10 years.



Likely not, if he lives in Tennessee.  How many burning hours per season will he expect to use it?

I replaced one of mine after 15,000 hours, the other a bit longer than that.  Could have stretched them longer, but they’re too inexpensive to bother being cheap about it.


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## Rickb (Jul 23, 2019)

bholler said:


> Yes but it won't last 10 years.  You will probably replace it 3 times in 10 years.  Only the first will be covered


  Im going to have to disagree with this slightly.  I use my stove about 4 times more then anyone else in my neighborhood.  Not 24x7 like some here but defiantly more then avg for my area.  Im going into year 6 on my combuster.  I did order a new one for this year but its because I want to pull mine and clean behind it.  I will just pull my old one and clean it well and heep it as a back up unit.


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## bholler (Jul 23, 2019)

Ok but the 10 yr warranty means nothing at all.


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## Tennessee.Pilgrim (Jul 23, 2019)

Ok. So what are some recommendations for a medium Cast Iron stove.


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## begreen (Jul 23, 2019)

Tennessee.Pilgrim said:


> Ok. So what are some recommendations for a medium Cast Iron stove.


Start a new thread on the topic and tell us in that thread a bit more about the house, heating requirements, stove location, etc..


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## BKVP (Jul 23, 2019)

bholler said:


> Ok but the 10 yr warranty means nothing at all.


Sorry, that is not fair.  If the cat goes bad in year 9 or up to year 10, it's replaced, no questions asked under 100% warranty.

Thousands upon thousands of owners get upwards 10 years service.  Yes...they diminish in performance over time, but they typically do not go bad.

Users on this forum are exceptional, highly tuned wood burners.  They can perceive the slightest slip in performance.   Heck, many have lab equipment attached to their stoves.


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## Tennessee.Pilgrim (Jul 23, 2019)

begreen said:


> Start a new thread on the topic and tell us in that thread a bit more about the house, heating requirements, stove location, etc..



I started a new thread titled, “Looking for a new stove”


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## begreen (Jul 23, 2019)

BKVP said:


> Sorry, that is not fair.  If the cat goes bad in year 9 or up to year 10, it's replaced, no questions asked under 100% warranty.
> 
> Thousands upon thousands of owners get upwards 10 years service.  Yes...they diminish in performance over time, but they typically do not go bad.
> 
> Users on this forum are exceptional, highly tuned wood burners.  They can perceive the slightest slip in performance.   Heck, many have lab equipment attached to their stoves.


It seems like most are replacing them when they start seeing smoke coming from the chimney. I think there has only been one person report 10yr life for their cat. Only a few folk have a manometer attached and they are engineers or have had issues with the stove and the dealer wasn't much help.


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## BKVP (Jul 23, 2019)

begreen said:


> It seems like most are replacing them when they start seeing smoke coming from the chimney. I think there has only been one person report 10yr life for their cat. Only a few folk have a manometer attached and they are engineers or have had issues with the stove and the dealer wasn't much help.


Yes "most" here, on this site.  There might be 25-35 (estimate) active BK owners on hearth.com.   Respectfully, there are hundreds of thousands of owners and the numbers favor them.
But yes, if they see smoke, they should investigate the cause.  Sometimes it will be the cat.


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## begreen (Jul 23, 2019)

Unfortunately, most stove owners, including cat stove owners just burn them and ignore what's happening out of the stack. Could be a large percent are running them with failed or clogged cats after 5yrs or more. That's what the Oregon report from 1998 showed at least. Maintenance is not the average stove owner's strong point. It's why we're here, to help improve that.


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## BKVP (Jul 23, 2019)

begreen said:


> Unfortunately, most stove owners, including cat stove owners just burn them and ignore what's happening out of the stack. Could be a large percent are running them with failed or clogged cats after 5yrs or more. That's what the Oregon report from 1998 showed at least. Maintenance is not the average stove owner's strong point. It's why we're here, to help improve that.


Agreed..but look at the more recent CHC study.  Nevertheless,  you are correct.  All stove owners need to "Go out, Look Up".  I've posted/supported this for years, still do!


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## lsucet (Jul 23, 2019)

I will see how many years I can go with mine. Both stoves has the original cats with one since late 15 -16 winter when it was installed. Early this year I thought it was ready for replacement due to more smoke than normal and the cat not lighting off like it used to. Before replace it ( I have two new ones) I remembered that I was using wood from a different pile that was behind the stables and I forgot about. I measured MC and some pieces and they were all high 20s of MC. 
Somehow water get to that pile. I started using from the other pile low MC for sure and I did burn hot a couple of loads before dial it in. The cat started acting back again like always and I went the rest of the winter with no issues.
. Like mentioned here and all over, wood MC is very important.


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## bholler (Jul 24, 2019)

BKVP said:


> Sorry, that is not fair.  If the cat goes bad in year 9 or up to year 10, it's replaced, no questions asked under 100% warranty.
> 
> Thousands upon thousands of owners get upwards 10 years service.  Yes...they diminish in performance over time, but they typically do not go bad.
> 
> Users on this forum are exceptional, highly tuned wood burners.  They can perceive the slightest slip in performance.   Heck, many have lab equipment attached to their stoves.


What I meant was that that 10 year warranty doesn't mean anything about how long the cat will last.

But you are absolutely right I didn't word that well at all.


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## Ashful (Jul 24, 2019)

You have always been a man of few words, bholler.  Sometimes too few.  [emoji3]

The reality is that you rarely hear any complaint from those actually running cat stoves, over the cost of cat replacement.  It is an issue that proponents of non-cats fixate on, but it is really a nothing issue.  $160 for every 15,000’ish hours of burning... no one is losing sleep over that kind of cost, esp. when you consider  how much wood can be saved in these very highly efficient stoves, for those who run the majority of the time on lower settings.

... and that’s not unique to BK, or any other brand.  Woodstock is another fantastic cat stove option, with tech, quality, and support that appears to be  every bit as good as BK.  They all require you to replace this key component every few years, which may be 10+ years for part-time burners.

Citing those who don’t maintain their stoves as relevant to, well... anything, is really showing a pretty clear bias.  I don’t see that as constructive, or relevant to this thread.


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## bholler (Jul 24, 2019)

Ashful said:


> You have always been a man of few words, bholler.  Sometimes too few.  [emoji3]
> 
> The reality is that you rarely hear any complaint from those actually running cat stoves, over the cost of cat replacement.  It is an issue that proponents of non-cats fixate on, but it is really a nothing issue.  $160 for every 15,000’ish hours of burning... no one is losing sleep over that kind of cost, when you look at how much wood can be saved in these very highly efficient stoves.
> 
> ...


The many cat stoves I work on do not have working cats in them.  Many have never had the cat replaced at all.  Many don't even have a cat in at all any more.  I quite often hear them say oh yeah that fell apart years ago and I am not paying for a new one.  I am not bashing cat stoves at all.  But for most average people the less maintenance there is the better.


----------



## Rickb (Jul 24, 2019)

bholler said:


> The many cat stoves I work on do not have working cats in them.  Many have never had the cat replaced at all.  Many don't even have a cat in at all any more.  I quite often hear them say oh yeah that fell apart years ago and I am not paying for a new one.  I am not bashing cat stoves at all.  But for most average people the less maintenance there is the better.




How many stoves do you service that have burned out burn tubes that the same non-maintenance people use and don't want to take the time or money to fix so they just burn as is?  I'm actually just curious about this.  I'm not trying to argue any point.


----------



## bholler (Jul 24, 2019)

Rickb said:


> How many stoves do you service that have burned out burn tubes that the same non-maintenance people use and don't want to take the time or money to fix so they just burn as is?  I'm actually just curious about this.  I'm not trying to argue any point.


I have seen very few burnt out tubes.  I would say 5 or 6 total. Most of those had other serious issues as well making them unusable.  Cracked baffles are not uncommon but those typically don't cost that much.


----------



## begreen (Jul 24, 2019)

Ashful said:


> You have always been a man of few words, bholler.  Sometimes too few.  [emoji3]
> 
> The reality is that you rarely hear any complaint from those actually running cat stoves, over the cost of cat replacement.  It is an issue that proponents of non-cats fixate on, but it is really a nothing issue.  $160 for every 15,000’ish hours of burning... no one is losing sleep over that kind of cost, esp. when you consider how much wood can be saved in these very highly efficient stoves, for those who run the majority of the time on lower settings.


It's more like $200-300 depending on the stove brand and cat. 10,000 hrs. is an average lifespan, assuming perfect running and no errors due to contamination, thermal shock, etc.. Over 10 yrs this adds up if one is burning 24/7 in a colder climate. This is not including the additional maintenance and parts required for a bypass stove and cat gasket. The best solution is often the simplest. Very few folks run their stoves at the lowest setting during the coldest months of winter. Quite the opposite, folks frequently report wanting even more heat than the stove can produce during that time.


----------



## Ashful (Jul 24, 2019)

begreen said:


> Very few folks run their stoves at the lowest setting during the coldest months of winter. Quite the opposite, folks frequently report wanting even more heat than the stove can produce during that time.


One or two forum members per season, eg. Marshy, doesn’t add up to “frequently”.  I read nearly every post on this forum, and have for most of the last decade, and I do not recall these “frequent” posts of people unable to get sufficient heat out of a cat stove.

Even bholler reported that the stove was able to keep up with demand, although it held no advantage for him over a non-cat, at the higher burn rate he was running.  Completely understood, and a fair assessment, on his part.  And if you’re speaking of me, there is no single stove on earth that can heat my cave.

I do believe the majority of BK owners (and all stove owners) are running their stoves at a relatively low setting, for most of the year.  But that wide range of output is the primary advantage of the cat stove, burn it high or burn it low, your choice at the turn of a knob.  If you only ever need medium to high (Marshy), you might as well KISS, and go non-cat.


----------



## begreen (Jul 24, 2019)

Agreed that the nicest feature of a BK stove is the thermostatic operation.  This discussion is not specifically about BK vs the rest of the stove world. There are many other cat stoves on the market.


----------



## Highbeam (Jul 24, 2019)

begreen said:


> Agreed that the nicest feature of a BK stove is the thermostatic operation.  This discussion is not specifically about BK vs the rest of the stove world. There are many other cat stoves on the market.



It's not the thermostat that allows for such a wonderfully wide range of available outputs, its the catalyst's ability to burn clean at different output levels. Some woodstock stoves without thermostats have nearly the same output range.


----------



## begreen (Jul 24, 2019)

I was thinking back to when we had a VC Resolute I many years ago in a small house. The thermostatic operation was its nicest feature. It allowed us to heat very comfortably in shoulder and winter seasons.


----------



## Highbeam (Jul 24, 2019)

bholler said:


> I have seen very few burnt out tubes.  I would say 5 or 6 total. Most of those had other serious issues as well making them unusable.  Cracked baffles are not uncommon but those typically don't cost that much.



I agree. The soft baffle boards bust all the time but the tubes are remarkably durable. My tube stoves have always been run hard with glowing tubes but the tubes are holding up just fine. Replacement cost of all four tubes exceeds the cost of a single catalyst replacement but I am not willing to call the tubes a normal wear item.

Cat replacement is a hassle. It's worth the money to me but it's still an ongoing cost and requires some effort every few years to notice the old one failed, shop for a new one, order a new one, fight the porch pirates to get it shipped, replace the cat, and trash the old one. 

One other odd thing. Warm up time. The cat stove smokes like crazy for quite some time when starting a cold stove. The noncat is much quicker to burn with no visible smoke.


----------



## BKVP (Jul 24, 2019)

I'm off to Alaska today but will summarize what we all are saying.

1) Cats do wear out over time. Baffles crack and sometimes tubes crack.  In the end, regardless of replacement costs, users of wood stoves MUST maintain their stoves.  If you read comments over the years by test lab experts, a cracked tube, poor weld, failing cat, warped baffle all lead to more emissions. 

2) EPA, regulators, test labs and even industry was 100% involved in the development of Method OM7, which later became Method 28.  Method 28 clearly demonstrates a WEIGHTED AVERAGE, with the vast majority of emissions test results tied to low and medium low burn rates.  The reason is self evident,  most wood burners burn on low.  Manufacturers recognize this in 100% of their literature by providing low burn times.  Can you show me a high burn time in a brochure or web site.

3) ADEC has submitted, prematurely in our opinion, a SIP to EPA suggesting that non catalytic wood heaters only, be required to be subjected to additional testing.  The data they attached (vastly insufficient and limited in scope) show higher emissions on start up for one technology versus another.  To be 100% clear, emissions at all burn rates vary greatly based upon user interface. Something as simple as a piece of wood falling forward can impinge air flow and cause a stove to smoke.

We are all 100% on the same page.  All wood stoves can heat homes.  Some are more efficient and cleaner burning than others IN A LAB, but it all comes down to the user, proper installation and properly conditioned fuel.  The rest is easy.  People come here for support and education.  If they want politics they can watch the Mueller hearings.


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## bholler (Jul 24, 2019)

BKVP said:


> I'm off to Alaska today but will summarize what we all are saying.
> 
> 1) Cats do wear out over time. Baffles crack and sometimes tubes crack.  In the end, regardless of replacement costs, users of wood stoves MUST maintain their stoves.  If you read comments over the years by test lab experts, a cracked tube, poor weld, failing cat, warped baffle all lead to more emissions.
> 
> ...


Well no we all agree tubes almost never need replaced.  The only ones I have seen were cases of extreme abuse or neglect.  Broken baffles although somewhat common can be easily avoided.  The ones in my regency are about 15 years old with no problems.  And most baffles are in the 100 to 150 range.


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## begreen (Jul 24, 2019)

Generalizations are often not too helpful. There are pros and cons to every stove design. Early Lopis and Avalons had steel tubes that did burn out. Travis learned and corrected the issue by replacing them with stainless tubes, over 25 yrs ago. There are no tubes in PE stoves nor in many others like some Jotuls, Hamptons, etc.. And not all baffles are made from fragile board. Lopi and Osburn's are pretty tough and durable. Others are stainless, combining baffle with secondary air ports. FWIW, our baffle box looks fine after a decade. Likewise, there are several different cat stove designs, some more successful than others. Some are easy to maintain and some are a pain in the butt. 

Ultimately it's what works for and best fits the customer's needs and desires. After that, the most important part is the person that is running the stove.  The very best stove can be turned into a poor heater by improper setup or operation. And conversely, a cheap or old design can burn relatively efficiently in the hands of a competent operator.


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## jetsam (Jul 25, 2019)

I think there's actually a fairly small number of people that would consider 'cat vs noncat' a polarizing subject, let alone a political one. Our problem is that they are all concentrated right here.


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## SpaceBus (Jul 25, 2019)

jetsam said:


> I think there's actually a fairly small number of people that would consider 'cat vs noncat' a polarizing subject, let alone a political one. Our problem is that they are all concentrated right here.


Occasionally threads here suffer the issue of "too many engineers"


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## Ashful (Jul 25, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Occasionally threads here suffer the issue of "too many engineers"


That, and this subject has been re-hashed too many times for the old-timers here, but hopefully it’s always for the benefit of the (usually) new person asking the question.

Like the sexes, for which we are also encouraged to pretend there are no differences, there are differences between cat and non-cat.  Find the trade-offs that work best for you.  As long as we truthfully acknowledge these differences, and the trade-offs that come with them, it’s a useful conversation for the benefit of those asking.  Unfortunately, certain people here exaggerate one point or another, almost always in reference to a stove they have never operated.  Maybe I’m guilty of that, in some cases, but not nearly as guilty as some others.

It’s just hard for all of us to believe that others can have different priorities, or weigh their pro/con decisions differently, after each of us have spent our own time thinking about it and working up our own routines.

It’s all good though, I’m not sure why these threads so often get shut down, just when the arguin’ is getting good.  I enjoy the debate... because I’m right!  [emoji3]


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## SteveKG (Jul 25, 2019)

I changed to a cat stove about five years ago. I also bought a new cat from Woodstock a few months ago. First replacement. It was something like $140, perhaps a few bucks less. 

Meanwhile, I burn a lot less wood. I fell, cut, split all my own and have for the past 45 years, so I am rather in tune with my supply. By a lot less, I mean I used to burn 4 1/2 cords on a normal winter, now it is more like 2 1/2 cords. Considering the sweat equity and effort, though I enjoy doing it, $75 a year in cat cost is very minor.


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## bholler (Jul 25, 2019)

SteveKG said:


> I changed to a cat stove about five years ago. I also bought a new cat from Woodstock a few months ago. First replacement. It was something like $140, perhaps a few bucks less.
> 
> Meanwhile, I burn a lot less wood. I fell, cut, split all my own and have for the past 45 years, so I am rather in tune with my supply. By a lot less, I mean I used to burn 4 1/2 cords on a normal winter, now it is more like 2 1/2 cords. Considering the sweat equity and effort, though I enjoy doing it, $75 a year in cat cost is very minor.


What stove did you switch from though?  We hear accounts like this all the time but most times the switch is from an old pre epa stove.  I agree in some situations switching from a modern non cat to a good cat stove will save you some wood.  But not that much.


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## SpaceBus (Jul 25, 2019)

SteveKG said:


> I changed to a cat stove about five years ago. I also bought a new cat from Woodstock a few months ago. First replacement. It was something like $140, perhaps a few bucks less.
> 
> Meanwhile, I burn a lot less wood. I fell, cut, split all my own and have for the past 45 years, so I am rather in tune with my supply. By a lot less, I mean I used to burn 4 1/2 cords on a normal winter, now it is more like 2 1/2 cords. Considering the sweat equity and effort, though I enjoy doing it, $75 a year in cat cost is very minor.


Does your Esse run a cat? It seems like there's an optional cat for the 990 making it a hybrid. I'm really surprised more stoves haven't gone the hybrid route.


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## begreen (Jul 25, 2019)

bholler said:


> What stove did you switch from though?  We hear accounts like this all the time but most times the switch is from an old pre epa stove.  I agree in some situations switching from a modern non cat to a good cat stove will save you some wood.  But not that much.


I think it was an old Shenandoah IIRC. They also supplement heat with a (Heartland?) cookstove. Steve brings up another good point though, cat prices and cat availability can vary. Woodstock has been out of cats for some models (the PH) for a period of time and they are the only source of replacement. It's a good idea to have a spare on hand. If the cat no longer is made the stove is essentially obsolete unless it's a hybrid.


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## thechimneysweep (Jul 25, 2019)

Like it or not, we're going to be seeing a lot more hybrid models as manufacturers add a third-stage catalytic reburn to their existing non-cat designs in order to meet the 2020 2 gram/hr standard.  Hearthstone's Castleton model recently got the hybrid treatment, and the new version scored less than 1 gram/hr in EPA testing.

However, the non-cat option isn't going away.  PE's non-cat LE models are sailing through testing at 1.8 grams/hr.


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## bholler (Jul 25, 2019)

SpaceBus said:


> Does your Esse run a cat? It seems like there's an optional cat for the 990 making it a hybrid. I'm really surprised more stoves haven't gone the hybrid route.


Yes the 990s I work on have cats.  But not really hybrid the only other secondary combustion comes from the grid over the firebox.  Which does help but isn't great.


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## KJamesJR (Jul 27, 2019)

jerrieric said:


> Just another government mandate to save the planet. I wonder how the forest fires in California hurt the environment compared to how many stoves are burning without a catalytic converter. Maybe the government should Outlaw wildfires



Let’s cap all the active volcanos while we’re at it.


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## begreen (Jul 28, 2019)

Time to stick a fork in this one.


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