# Did you get a Permit for your install??



## jqgs214 (Jun 24, 2007)

Lets be honest here,

Getting a permit in my town is a royal PITA.  Did not have a permit with the old stove and with the new one going in was wondering what every one else has done.  

Thanks


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## jtp10181 (Jun 24, 2007)

we are now pulling permits for all of our customers. It is a PITA especially when you have to go around to 20 different ofices for each township / town. Here is why you want to do it.

1) Insurance claim if for some reason the house starts on fire
2) Selling the house


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## jqgs214 (Jun 24, 2007)

Oh,  I know I "SHOULD" but man its like I'm building a sky scaper with all the info they need. They want 3 copies of my survey, since it has a fan they want an electrical permit and I told them it just plugs into the wall!  All for the $100.00 fee they can make off me.


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## Michael6268 (Jun 24, 2007)

Two of three - no, but had to on the gas stove due to it was in a new addition that I did have to take a permit out on, and couldnt get a C/O without it.


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## jtp10181 (Jun 24, 2007)

Almost every unit we sell has a blower and I don't think our permits we pull include electrical work. Thats just BS. Ask them if you should be getting a permit when you buy a new lamp! In plugs in you know...

Also, it seems you started to apply for one already. We actually had one rejected once for some odd reason and it never did get pulled. Then a few months later an inspector went to the house and checked out the fireplace and then billed us for the permit! So once they have your address you are in thier radar.


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## jqgs214 (Jun 24, 2007)

Nope, I just went in and asked questions, got the forms etc.  They dont have my name and address yet.  Could be the guy I talked to didnt know exactly what I needed.  I think the electrical is BS too.  Had to explain 3 times what a an insert was.  "Yes sir it goes INSIDE the fire place"  "Really??"  "Yes sir", "IN??" "Yes", "neat"


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## Shane (Jun 24, 2007)

It's a shame that all permitting processes aren't clean and easy.  The idea and purpose behind it is great.  The unfortunate part is that throughout the country it seems that many inspectors are ridiculously ignorant about the hearth products that are being installed. This usually means one of two things.  1.) The inspector comes and slaps a tag on it collects his fee and off he goes, not really knowing if the install is up to par.  2.) The inspector becomes overly "careful" and makes people comply with what I've termed "over interpretations" of code.

Here's a nice example of what I've dealt with.  The following pics are from an install that was initially un-permitted.  We "snitched" on the installer when we found it on a real estate inspection.  The pics with the sheet metal bent back over are the code approved fixes that the inspector let this guy get away with.  And the only reason he had to "repair" anything at all is because we appealed the inspectors decision.

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/291 Indian Paintbrush_01.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/291 Indian Paintbrush_03.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/291 Indian Paintbrush_04.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/291 Indian Paintbrush_05.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/291 Indian Paintbrush_10.jpg

Another code approved install.  A little explanation needed.  One of those caps vents a direct vent stove and the other vents a hot water heater.  Again this is an inspector approved installation.  They "reprimanded him" about venting hot water heaters "he knows he shouldn't do that"
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0923.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/100_0926.jpg

This insert was installed in the bedroom of the home owners daughter.  She kept complaining of headaches and weird smells.  This is two-ply single wall aluminum liner being passed through a combusible wall and vented into an already overloaded furnace/hotwater heater chimney.  Also prior to taking pictures I moved 20 articles of clothing that were hanging above and in contact with the liner. Note this one wasn't code approved and the installation was removed prior to the inspector being able to see it.

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/747 S Lincoln_02.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/747 S Lincoln_05.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/747 S Lincoln_06.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/747 S Lincoln_10.jpg

This one is a b-vent insert that was downdrafting so badly that it killed the family hamster.  The hamster died after 3 trips from the installing company saying nothing was wrong.  We were called out to deal with the negative pressure causing the downdraft and found flex line run over the smoke shelf in direct contact with the aluminium liner.  The plastic coating on the gas line melted off.  When we had a plumber out to correct the situation he acutally discovered a pinhole leak in the gas line once it was moved.

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/3001 Cotton Crk Pl_02.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/3001 Cotton Crk Pl_03.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/3001 Cotton Crk Pl_04.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/3001 Cotton Crk Pl_05.jpg

This one is an expedition in self wiring.  This is a Quad with a battery back up that does not provide adequate amperage.  The outlet was not permitted or wired correctly and the big scary part (I don't know why there isn't a pic of it) but there was a 90 hour deep cycle marine battery stuffed in the fireplace with this insert.  Yea that's right.

http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/Quad_04.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/Quad_08.jpg
http://w3.tribcsp.com/~aahcinc/Quad_09.jpg

I'll stop there.  Point is is that all of these violations on top of blowing up a cabin etc. etc. are not enough to put this guy out of business.  Heck even his manufacturers have no interest in dropping him.  It must be nice to do this to people day in and day out and not ever have to pay the piper.


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## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 24, 2007)

Not getting a permit/having your stove inspected is LITERALLY a poor mans I.Q test!.  Why on earth would you risk a home worth $100k, $500k, 1M + for a $100 permit??. That is insane!.

Many people don't realize that insurance companies have investigative specialists (almost like crime scene investigators) to do everything possible to find a way to DENY your claim.  Think about it. Say you have a chimney fire that ended up burning down your $500k home. The cause of the fire at this point means absolutely nothing as your stove *legally* needed to be inspected and approved (installation).  What are the chances your insurance company will cover your home anyway....just to be nice??...   ZERO!.  Don't be stupid!.


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## jqgs214 (Jun 24, 2007)

Ouch,

Didnt say I wasnt getting one, just expressing what a PITA it is and what other people decided.


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## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 24, 2007)

"ouch" is right!. trust me, *tough love* on this issue is the only way to go.  The "hassle" it takes to get a permit is only a tiny fraction of the inconvienience  of  having to rebuild your entire home.....at YOUR expense!.  I just had a 10k gall cistern tank get damaged due to an overflowing hose spigot.  I DO have full insurance coverage and they still denied the claim!!.  Why?, because in tiny print it sais, water damage claims are NOT covered by damage due to water "escapement"...meaning a faucet left on etc.

The insurance companies have written their policies for their own protection, not yours!.  Many policies don't cover "acts of god" which can literally include almost every possible disaster (fire, flood, wind) that you are insuring your home for to begin with!.

There are many people in Louisiana that had flood insurance, but who's home claims were denied stating that their policies did not cover any act of god.  So, now your thinking "what was the flood insurance for then"?., well, possibly if a water heater blew up or something, but then it may say in the policy that water damage due to "escapement" is not covered.!!

Like I said, this just DID happen to me. I DO have flood damage insurance which is void due to water escapement. Since we live in Arizona, we don't get flooding so what is the point of the insurance?.  I have read through the policy very carefully and determined it is worthless!!  My fault by not reading closely to begin with.  Most people don't!.


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## myzamboni (Jun 24, 2007)

My city has outlawed new woodstove installs and I still managed to get a variance.  If you come in more knowledgeable than they are on emissions, etc, it plays in your favor.


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## wahoowad (Jun 25, 2007)

no permit


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## jtp10181 (Jun 25, 2007)

Shane, thats some pretty scary stuff people do with gas lines. The one with the giant hole totally comprimised the integrity of the original fireplace, making it a hazzard to have an insert in it. I was a little confused though, all those units with gas lines going to them all look like wood installs to me (from the pictures of the insides of everything). Must be other brands besides the few I work with.


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## mayhem (Jun 25, 2007)

Pulled permits for both installs.  The installers wouldn't come in without one.

Despite the annoyances in pulling a permit and dealing with the inspection process and how lazy some of the officials are, the intention behind the process is to help make sure your instalaltion is safe and that you won't kill your family when you try to keep them warm in the winter.


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## scfa99 (Jun 25, 2007)

There's no greater PITA than New Jersey, i pulled one.  the risk of not being covered if the house burns is not worth the risk of  paying additional tax dollars.


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## Hogwildz (Jun 25, 2007)

None here. Replaced a pc of chit insert and relined the chiney with s.s. rigid. Ten times better than original that was there. Ins co. never got in house, but knows a fireplace insert existed.


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## MrGriz (Jun 25, 2007)

I didn't pull one; but now you all have me thinking.  I researched the heck out of the inserts and installation practices and I'm more confident in my work than an unknown installers.  When I do things like this I tend to go over and above, rather than just meeting code or specifications.

The one thing that is now getting into my head is the insurance aspect.  I did call my agent and he said that since I was putting the insert into an existing fireplace (that they knew about when I bought the house) he did not need any documentation.  I took that as good information and went ahead.

Now I'm thinking that if most of the inspectors you guys are talking about didn't know beans about hearth products, maybe my insurance agent is in the same catagory.

Now that the insert has been in and running for a season, can I still pull a permit and have it inspected?  Since I didn't pull one originally, they don't know it's there, or how long it's been in when they come to inspect.

Hmmm.......


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## jqgs214 (Jun 25, 2007)

Tell them you bought it used and just put it in.  Found out ya needed a permit and there you are doing the right thing.


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## webbie (Jun 25, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> Not getting a permit/having your stove inspected is LITERALLY a poor mans I.Q test!.  Why on earth would you risk a home worth $100k, $500k, 1M + for a $100 permit??. That is insane!.



Tough love does not relate to this matter - on this much I can assure you.....when it comes to minor remodeling jobs in total, the percentage of jobs which have permits are EXTREMELY low. I didn't create this situation, but cannot help but notice it. If everyone who needed a permit came in to get one, you'd see city hall having to immediately quadruple the size of their inspection dept...or more.

I have talked to a number of insurance agents over the years - many of who insisted that we not get a permit for the parts of a job on THEIR OWN house, and every agent has told me there is no such thing as turning down a claim for such a situation. Given the millions if installations (of every type - stove, electrical, etc.) that are unpermited, if this was true we would be seeing people bankrupted every day by such situations. So I would say it does not happen......you can probably find a story somewhere, but it is not normal reality.

There are, of course, many other factors involved, but I want to set that particular one to rest. If you go to the hardware store and install a dimmer switch into your wall without a permit - you will not lose your house if it burns down because of it. There is almost nothing short of you spreading out some gasoline and lighting it on purpose that would make homeowners fail to pay.......well, except a hurricane like Katrina where they claim it was not the wind, but the water that made your house fall over!

I've had insurance agents, judges, police officers, and even building officials have me do work in their home with no permit. This was when I was a remodeling contractor as well as the early days of stove installation. Our shop now gets permits on any job which requires it.

Only point to this thread is that there are potential reasons for getting the permit, but NOT because insurance won't give you a penny when the house burns.

Reasons -
1. A second/third opinion on the job before it is started
2. A record in city hall - for multiple reasons - they raise your taxes and also have a record of all construction done on your home for future buyers and reference.
3. An inspection (of varying quality) when the job is done.
4. Relative assurances that the contractor is using materials and processes that are accepted.

So, no tough love needed. I will not get a permit when I put in my dimmer switch or put up a fence (many areas require this)- but I will get one when I do an addition or major electrical work. Technically, I guess that makes me an "illegal homeowner", and a criminal, so maybe they will ship me away somewhere and teach me how to speak "permit".

Government differs in your town and/or mine/other. You can ask the same question (do I need a permit) to 25 towns and get many different answers....even though one answer might be the correct one. Heck, if THEY can't figure which one is correct, how is the homeowner going to do so?

The other dynamic is with certain government agencies, the answer - if you ask - is always no. No is always safer and takes less responsibility and thinking than "yes". So you often have to press hard to get a yes. So I wonder who really needs to take the IQ test?

Live Free or Die.


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## jqgs214 (Jun 25, 2007)

Well,

Interesting response Web.  Still think I'll pull a permit but its good to know that Ins. Co. will more than likely pay.  I call my agent and they said the Ins. CO. really didnt care it I had one installed.  Its an insert and they will just note it on my policy.


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## Highbeam (Jun 25, 2007)

Good timing. I have recently demolished my masonry chimney with SS liner and wood insert, no permits. I have a freestanding stove to be installed in its place. I will have it professionaly installed except for the hearth, but won't get a permit until afterwards. I do want a permit for the sake of future sales as well as insurance hassle but I don't want it to hold up construction.

I will do my best to not burn the stove until the inspection but if winter comes then all bets are off.

I am considering getting my replacement electrical panel inspected as well. But then they'll see my hot tub installation and start asking about that. As part of my demolision process I have found a number of extremely poor electrical splices inside the walls and I fix them without permits as I go but the insurance company or the permit office will never know who did the work. 

It is all very confusing.


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## Rhone (Jun 25, 2007)

It's strange the difference in the insurance companies & inspectors.  I called up my insurance company and they told me it had to be inspected else I couldn't have a fire in it.  I believe that to be true, your town decides how many wood stoves it wants (or can support) if I'm not mistaken.  Going to city hall, I had to fill out a single page stating make, installed by, liner, height, price etc. which took me about 5 minutes.  I paid I think $35-$40 for the permit and my inspector came out to my house, and with a tape measure checked clearances, he could see the silver liner sticking out the top of my chimney, and there was a block-off plate.  It was done pretty quick, he said if I'd installed it myself, or it was installed by someone out of state he'd have to do more investigative work but he's familiar with the family owned business that installed mine and they do quality work.  Once I got my permit in the mail my insurance company wanted something faxed to them and they asked if I'd like to increase my coverage by another $3,500 to cover replacement of my insert, I agreed.  Pretty painless, my liner did have problems and I ended up ripping the whole thing out and redoing it... found a kink, a mis-brand part used (never use different brands they rarely work with each other) that I either replaced or removed, and I purchased an extend-a-flue.  Now it's working 100x better but I didn't get a permit for the "repair" job done.  He also took digital pictures, so if there is a problem he's going to see it's different than when he inspected it.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

When a person goes for homeowners insurance you are asked basic questions. You are asked the age of the building, the framing, electrical, plumbing, etc....you are also asked about the heating system. If your house does not have a pellet stove or a fireplace, and then you don't pull a permit, your house burns down, the insurance company will deny the claim....by the way guys....I'm a Claims Adjuster. I would definitely deny the claim, hands down. My company expects its adjusters to thoroughly investigate claims. I do. Not reporting a change in the heating system, in my opinion is fraud. Not reporting a pellet stove or fireplace, or wood burning stove is not notifying the insurance company of a risk....a contained fire. Fires in homes do occur from "friendly fires", when the fire leaves its intended place. By not reporting the risk, you have gotten away with premium fraud. When GVA and I put in our pellet stove, we did pull a permit, we did have it inspected and we did notify our insurance carrier. And MSH is not correct that insurance never pays. They do pay. Fire, wind, hail is covered. No flooding is not covered unless you have flood insurance. If water comes in from the outside, it isn't covered unless you have flood insurance, if a pipe bursts it is covered, if it seeps, no it is not covered. Sorry. But to answer the question regarding the Permit.....PULL ONE REGARDLESS THAT IT IS A PITA! And web, by the way, judges are different in every area.....maybe judges in your area are more lenient, but that is generally not the rule.    If people change a light switch, circuit, not a big deal.  The insurance company cannot prove you didn't have an outlet or light switch there, but add a stove....that they can prove.


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## rdrcr56 (Jun 25, 2007)

Question for Mrs. GVA, I told my agent that I was removing an existing heatalator fireplace, turning the opening into an alcove and installing a wood stove. He said that was no problem as there was a fireplace first and not to worry about a permit.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 25, 2007)

World of difference in pulling a permit and informing your insurance company. Craig didn't say not tell the insurance company, he just said insurance will pay off without a permit.

And Mrs. GVH as bad as I am at electrical I could burn the house down a lot faster installing a dimmer switch than a stove.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

rdrcr56 said:
			
		

> Question for Mrs. GVA, I told my agent that I was removing an existing heatalator fireplace, turning the opening into an alcove and installing a wood stove. He said that was no problem as there was a fireplace first and not to worry about a permit.



I get calls from Sales on a regular basis asking me hypothetical questions, because they just don't know claims.  In my opinion an agent wants to keep your business and figures that the odds of something happening are slim.  My response to hypothetical questions.....When the hypothetical claim gets reported I'll perform my hypothetical investigation.  The insurance agent is putting himself out there for a law suit.  He doesn't handle claims, did you go from a zero clearance to a wood stove?  Did you completely change the firebox?  If so, how can he tell you not to worry about it?  Send him an e-mail and ask him, if he replies again not to worry about it, print it out and put it in a safe place.....if you ever had a loss.....either your homeowners or his liability insurance would pay for the claim!  When you did the construction, didn't you have to pull a building permit?  If you pulled the permit for the building, they probably included the wood stove.  As far as my freakout on premium fraud....your already paying for the fireplace....that shouldn't change anything.   Can't you just go down to your local town office and pull the permit now just to have it cleared?  If you did it correctly, you shouldn't have a problem, getting the inspector to sign off.  Then you'll be all set and be able to sleep at night knowing your insurance company shouldn't deny your claim.  You'll notice I said "shouldn't".   ;-)


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> World of difference in pulling a permit and informing your insurance company. Craig didn't say not tell the insurance company, he just said insurance will pay off without a permit.
> 
> And Mrs. GVH as bad as I am at electrical I could burn the house down a lot faster installing a dimmer switch than a stove.



Then don't do the work.  I should hope you are carrying liability insurance if your working in other people's homes.  

Regarding the permit....lets hope the claim doesn't come through me.....no permit, fire....I'm not paying.  Sorry.  It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 25, 2007)

Mrs-GVA said:
			
		

> Sorry.  It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.



Think about that a minute.


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## webbie (Jun 25, 2007)

Mrs. GVA knows her stuff, but we always have to remember the pecking order in this world. It starts with the Banks and Mortgage companies. Then there are the insurance experts you can hire to represent yourself against the "bad" insurance company that turns down claims.

As I said before, I cannot imagine a $700,000 house burning down and the company denying the claim - therefore leaving the bank and mortgage company with no money and also a lien against the former homeowner. While I am sure it happens and GVA can probably point to one, again - what would the bank or Fannie May, etc. say? The entire market would fall apart if any % of homeowner claims were not paid.

As we all know, the largest percentage of house fires are not caused by stoves or fireplaces. They are caused by many other factors, but to relate it to permits many of these factors are because the homeowner did not read or follow the installation or operation directions. So, it makes sense then that the claims could be turned down because we let the toaster and the coffee maker plug into a thin extension cord......it that true? of course not. Insurance companies work on the premise that people act in predictable ways and do not want to endanger themselves.

So, to put it in another way, if said house burns down and Ms. GVA looks over the file and finds out that a dimmer switch caused the fire - or that a gas dryer with a clogged up vent (installed or maintained wrong) did the job, would the claim be turned down...or, more accurately, will the claim end up being paid (many are turned down, of course, but most of these are paid)......it is the job of most insurance companies to take in as much as possible and pay out as little as possible - that is always obvious.

My insurance company sent me a questionnaire about stoves - asking if my stove was made of cast iron or cast aluminum? Never mind that there is no such thing as a cast aluminum stove (it would melt).......

In summary, I would not lie on an insurance form - that is similar to being asked if you smoke when buying life insurance. They won't pay if they find out you smoked and died from lung cancer! But I really want to hear someone explain how hundreds of billions of dollars of materials exits Home Depot, Lowes, Hardware stores and lumber yards...is installed into homes without permits (a high % of it, and no one can deny this), and YET, the mortgage and banking industry still function meaning claims on all this stuff are  - by and large - paid off.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Mrs-GVA said:
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I've been thinking....don't have a clue what you want me to think about.   As I stated, no permit....fire present from the stove... obviously installed incorrectly to have caused the fire, end of story.  If a permit is pulled, fire occurs....insurance pays.  My point....pull the permit.  You are installing a device which contains FIRE.  Why wouldn't you want a 2nd pair of eyes looking at the install.  Unless your a hack or you are saving a buck and hiring a hack to install.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 25, 2007)

The only time I ever set my house on fire was by improperly installing a frying pan on the stove in the kitchen.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

Web you are correct that there are mortgage companies that need there interests protected.  They are.  First of all most consumers do not realize the banks have a special insurance coverage in this type of situation that will protect their interest.  You are correct in the homeowners insurance to a point.  Lets say my house burned down because I put in a wood burning stove and didn't pull the permit.  My insurance company would probably pay the loan off to the bank but none of that money would be to go to the homeowner for rebuilding.  That will also happen if someone doesn't carry the proper amount of insurance.  If you state your home is only worth $100k and it is actually worth $500k, if you don't maintain 80-90% of the property worth (the house not the land), they won't pay your claim, but if the lien holder is listed as an insurable interest, their interest will be repaid.  But that's it.   I don't think, that relieves the homeowner of the debt, but I would need to check that out.    I have had a lot of education with property insurance, but I've concentrated on Liability and Workers' Compensation.  Permits also come into play with Homeowners Liability.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> The only time I ever set my house on fire was by improperly installing a frying pan on the stove in the kitchen.



GVA went out and bought a fire extinguisher for the kitchen....Doesn't say much about my cooking does it?   :red:


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## Highbeam (Jun 25, 2007)

Mrs-GVA said:
			
		

> I'm not paying.  Sorry.  It obviously wasn't installed correctly to have caused the fire.



That's silly. A chimney fire could burn a house down and a chimney fire can happen on a properly installed stove.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 25, 2007)

Mrs-GVA said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
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Believe me, your cooking has nothing to do with it.  As an adjuster you already know that the main sources of house fires are grease fires and candles. Wood stoves don't even make the top twenty.

I have a 10 pound ABC extingisher in every room of the house and I still made five runs back into that inferno before I got it put out. I will eat my French fries at McDonalds from now on. The fire department is far enough away that this place would have been gone by the time they got here. I now have four more 10 ABCs in the garage and a Scott's air pack in there so that I don't get my ass kicked by the smoke and fumes if it happens again. Gained a whole new respect for firemen that day. Even though they never showed up on the call. 

Whether the insurance would pay for the house was the last of my concerns that day. Getting my invalid wife down those stairs was. They will never make an insurance policy that could replace that gal.

PS: Both of the stoves in the house have been recorded with the insurance company for twenty-two years. The County Fire Marshall did the original inspection and the dork at the County got the do the little inspection tour when I replaced them last year. Saw his first stainless liners.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

BB, again, I was only talking about the context of DID YOU GET A PERMIT FOR YOUR INSTALL.  Your right, if its a grease fire, electrical fire, burning cigerette (not arson), the permit of the wood stove would be irrelevant in that situation wouldn't it?  My point was if the pellet stove, wood burning stove, gas stove (explosion), was not permitted and either caused a fire in the house or an explosion, and a permit wasn't pulled, chances are, your insurance company would not pay.  If a permit was pulled, that would stop that portion of the investigation wouldn't it?  If the fire was no where near then woodstove, why would they care?  It isn't the cause of the fire.  

For example, if you replaced your home heating source, furnace, boiler, whatever, and you installed it yourself, and didn't pull a permit.  It explodes.  Is your insurance going to cover the loss, probably not because if you didn't pull the permit, and your workmanship (or lack of) caused it to explode.  Chances are your insurance insn't going to cover the loss.

Now, if your kitchen catches on fire due to a grease fire in your kitchen oven... would your insurance pay?  Granted an investigation needs to be done, but it wouldn't be denied because you failed to pull a permit to install your woodstove, fireplace, chimney, pellet stove...whatever. 

Make sense?


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 25, 2007)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> Mrs-GVA said:
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Again, I cannot hypothetically investigate a hypothetical claim, because there are many scenerios surrounding a claim.  But I can assure you, I would have my expert come in, assess what caused the fire, if it had to do with an improper installation....I would then check if it was properly permitted.  If not.....CLAIM DENIED.  However, my expert would also be able to clarify if the fire was a chimney fire from whatever by the damage within the chimney.  If the permit was pulled, and cleared by the inspector, regardless of his competency, the claim would need to be honored.  I have to assume that the inspector is an expert and approved the install to be hired by the city/town.  Plus a properly installed liner should contain the chimney fire, and should therefore eliminate the house from burning down.  Correct?


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

This is slightly OT, but years ago I constantly had customers come to my shop who had MANY thousands of dollars given to them by their insurance companies because their masonry chimneys had cracked tiles. In most of these cases, there was no recorded chimney fire - and I can assure you no permit pulled except the original house construction - you can get your bippy that they don't check (or often even have records) of each house and inspection from 60 years ago -our township only had about 20 years of records.

Anyways, these people would have a sweep come out to check their chimney, then the sweep would report broken tiles and tell the customer that they must have had a chimney fire or some foundation settling which cracked the tiles. The insurance companies would pay - pretty big bucks at the time. It always pissed me off, since I knew the companies should not be paying on this kind of stuff - this was simply wear and tear - like asking them to replace your roof when it wore out! 

Although I have no real world experience, I still cannot imagine an insurance company checking to see if a permit was pulled on a particular replacement gas dryer or range which caused a fire. Although I cannot dispute the Ms., I still have not heard why the same % of claims are not turned down as stuff installed without a permit. In other words, it makes sense that if 70% of certain jobs (electrical, plumbing, hot water heater replacement, etc.) are done without permits, then 70% of the accidents caused by such would not be paid.

Perhaps Ms. GVA can clarify approx what percentage of large homeowner claims (over 100,000) are not paid. 

As mentioned above, most insurance companies do send out surveys these days - and some of these do ask about the permit. If one told the truth (for instance, stove but no permit) on the survey, then it is up to the insurance company to get back to the homeowner and tell them to get one (if they needed such).

As computer systems improve, we might say Big Brother is watching closer. In the past un-permitted work was hard to catch. Now some Twps want to inspect every house before it sells for certain things.....and some buyers ask more questions.

I think the real question here is all those in-between jobs.....installing a stove to replace another, installing an insert into an existing fireplace. Somewhere there is a line - for instance, as explained to me you don't need a permit for a window air conditioner...even though it can fall on someones head, the family car or overheat an electrical connection. You probably break the "law" when you replace a circuit breaker in your electrical panel...you surely do if you do it for a friend! So would the insurance company...if the fire started in the electrical box, find the 2 or 3 replaced breakers, and then try to not pay the claim?

We should also clarify that in the case of the wood stove permit, we are only talking about not paying the claim if the stove caused the fire......I assume? If the alarm clock causes the fire, and yet the house contains $50,000 of un-permitted work (but is fully insured for value), I assume they would have to pay......


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## karl (Jun 26, 2007)

I would like someone to chime in on rural areas.  There are counties in neighboring Ohio that are so rural people are building houses without permits.  There are no towns in the whole county to get a permit from.  Somebody is surely insuring these.


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## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 26, 2007)

Webmaster:

By the tone of your responses, you are obviously condoning not getting a permit. While we would all like for this to be an acceptable way to install things, it simply is NOT correct to encourage people to  NOT get permits for their stoves.

As the owner of a stove and fireplace website, That may even seem a bit irresponsible. I don't say that I don't wish it were the way you describe, but as others have said, many claims have NOT been covered (or would not have been), unless the proper permit was pulled and inspected.

You just banned another member from giving out inncorrect information; should we now ban you?


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Mr. Super - talking and discussing things is not either condoning or not condoning. When a member asks a question, multiple members give responses based on their own limited knowledge and experience. If you think I am irresponsible, then you can start a site and I will send people there for free for your regarded opinion.

And we have never banned a member for an opinion. We have 2+ million readers a year, and I can count on one hand the banned forum members - perhaps you could do better - or perhaps you think even people who rant about killing me or such things should have "free speech" here, but it ain't gonna happen. If you would like exact reasons for those 5 bannings over 2 years time, please PM me and I will attempt to satisfy your curiosity.

And on the same topic - once again - please accept my invitation to PM or email me if you have a problem. You can also set the BB to ignore me...or, you can simply leave. But you are obviously not following rules #3 and #4.

If I wanted to follow your train of thought, I could have a one page web site:

1. Read your manual and follow every word
2. Get a permit and ask the inspector what to do - follow every bit of advice

It would be a very short page. It also would not work.

Now, if you would like to continue the discussion in a civil manner, we should ask what the millions of people who live in unzoned areas where houses are built and remodeling done with no permit do - do you think they do not have insurance or mortgages? 

If Mr. Hunk wants to work hard against the enemy, I would suggest standing outside the doorway of his local Lowes and making certain those folks leaving with the 440 volt electrical supplies are fully licensed.

I lived in West Virginia and Tenn. - I can assure you that many areas were not incorporated and didn't know a permit from a soy latte. Yet people had houses, mortgages and cars.....

Lastly, I would urge you and others to look at the title of the thread - it is a question. You seem to think we should simply scare everyone away that didn't get a permit. I think we should educate them as to peoples experience. That is the value of opinion(s).

So do your homework about whether or not anyone is banned and read the thread titles - and participate if you like. But calling folks stupid (flunk an IQ test), and telling us all that it IS FOR CERTAIN your way or the highway is not the way of this forum.


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## littlesmokey (Jun 26, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> This is slightly OT, but years ago I constantly had customers come to my shop who had MANY thousands of dollars given to them by their insurance companies because their masonry chimneys had cracked tiles. In most of these cases, there was no recorded chimney fire - and I can assure you no permit pulled except the original house construction - you can get your bippy that they don't check (or often even have records) of each house and inspection from 60 years ago -our township only had about 20 years of records.
> 
> Anyways, these people would have a sweep come out to check their chimney, then the sweep would report broken tiles and tell the customer that they must have had a chimney fire or some foundation settling which cracked the tiles. The insurance companies would pay - pretty big bucks at the time. It always pissed me off, since I knew the companies should not be paying on this kind of stuff - this was simply wear and tear - like asking them to replace your roof when it wore out!
> .




I tried to follow the thread to the end, but... I think the insurance companies were smart. Pay a few to the folks claiming falure and it's cheap. When they can't prove they repairs, as the money was spent on sodas and tacos, they can deny the real claim. 

So as I read on, expect more anger.


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## littlesmokey (Jun 26, 2007)

OOPs, sorry, I didn't read the Webmasters post, before my response. Apparently there is a lot more going on here than I thought. I promise I will be quite for awhile, sit in the corner and read all posts, good bad or well, indifferent.


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Well, it's not really anger - it's just that insurance companies seem to follow the same rules as everyone else- the squeaking wheel gets the grease. Those homeowners who shoved a report from some two-bit (or one bit or three bit) chimney sweep in the faces of their agent got bucks for a repair - and all of our premiums go up.

I can't see where (current) anger comes into a simple question. If I want to get a permit to hang a picture or build an addition, that is my business (and of course, it extends to my insurance company, family, etc.) . If I make the wrong move, I suffer the consequences. For some amazing reasons, all my condoning of lawlessness has gotten me through 50 something years of this life without a major calamity. Maybe someday I will reach the lofty heights of doing everything by the 10,000 page book (actually, multiple books), but until then I simply do what I think it right given the particular situation and based on my own and others experience.


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## begreen (Jun 26, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> For some amazing reasons, all my condoning of lawlessness has gotten me through 50 something years of this life without a major calamity. Maybe someday I will reach the lofty heights of doing everything by the 10,000 page book (actually, multiple books), but until then I simply do what I think it right given the particular situation and based on my own and others experience.



I'm not angel and agree that the last one I will call is the county unless I am doing something major. But I have a fair amount of life knowledge accrued and am confident that I am going to do it as right as possible.

On the other hand, there are a lot of folks back in the hills that used single wall through a piece of sheet metal in a removed window pane, pipe held up with baling wire. For some unknown reason, nothing burned down. But is that a reason to condone it on an international site that is considered the reference for hearth installations?

 The problem is that what one person considers right in a particular situation, just because his house and the neighbor's shack are still standing,  could be so totally wrong. Not everyone has good common sense. For the majority I recommend, go by the book. I've seen some outrageously dangerous electrical work. True, nothing has burnt down, but in no way would I condone it.


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## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 26, 2007)

You are clouding the minds of your readers web. We are NOT talking about obtaining permits to hang pictures as you mention as this is NOT required by the insurance companies either. We ARE only talking about one thing, and ONE thing only; that being obtaining a permit to instal a wood stove and or fireplace.

Your rants about not wanting to obtain a permit for every little thing are without merit as a permit is NOT required for every little thing!.

I literally just spoke with my Farmers insurance agent regarding this exact issue. He sais any home heating appliance must be inspected by the local city/county dept. Any heating appliance (wood stove in this case), that was not declared in the original policy will not be covered in any event nor would any damage be as a result of its use.

He did go on to say that they would insure a stove/fireplace as long as the proper permits were obtained and inspected.

These are NOT hypothetical opinions but rather FACTS!.  The FACT is (like it or not), you MUST obtain a permit to be fully covered. I know you are at least realistic enough to agree that you are certainly taking your chances without one.  agreed?


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> I know you are at least realistic enough to agree that you are certainly taking your chances without one.  agreed?



Who is taking chances?
You must have not read my post about having permits for my addition, electrical work and everything my former store has done. I did not get a permit for my fence, but I guess if someone impales themselves on it, you will be right in your assessment.

But, yes, I am taking chances when I take a walk or bike ride, and even more (as you have stated) when I do not read insurance documents or code books or instruction manuals, many of which I have failed (and will continue to fail) to read.

Never the less, the thread asks members whether or not they have gotten permits for various levels of work. Whether it is a picture-hanging or replacement of a light switch, or installation of a ceiling fan or attic fan, there is somewhere each of us draws a line.....and folks want to know where that is.

I notice a lot of people eating fatty foods also. I notice a lot of people buying stuff in HD and not getting permits. I have no effect (or very little) on any of these situations. I am just a civilian (well, to some a 5 star general)....

So, remember, this is a DISCUSSION forum, and if our members really want to be safer I would suggest not burning wood at all - and replacing and maintaining their heating systems regularly...and not using a motorcycle for sure.


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Mr_Super-Hunky said:
			
		

> . He sais any home heating appliance must be inspected by the local city/county dept. Any heating appliance (wood stove in this case), that was not declared in the original policy will not be covered in any event nor would any damage be as a result of its use.
> 
> He did go on to say that they would insure a stove/fireplace as long as the proper permits were obtained and inspected.



Electric heaters?
Window mounted heat pump/air conditioners?
Kerosene Heaters?
Alcohol Fireplaces?
A new special air grate (fireplace radiator) for your fireplace?
The replacement of your interior black pipe?
The replacement of one section of your insulated chimney?
The replacement of your entire insulated chimney?
The replacement of your fireplace stainless steel liner?
The replacement of your woodstove after one year under warranty when a weld break?

As you see, it is not between a picture hanging and a full new stove and fireplace install. Most jobs we did at our shop fell within the range above or similar. So, let me know the facts on each of the above in every jurisdiction in the USA and Canada......then maybe we won't need folks to ask questions.


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## Mr_Super-Hunky (Jun 26, 2007)

Web;

multiple, consecutive post replies indicates a flustered state of mind; similar to rapid eye movement. Once again, you mention numerous iteams that permits are NOT required for. Picture hanging, misc home improvements etc. You even go on by using fatty diet analogies, but once again, for the last time, we are only talking about one thing..... the need to obtain a permit to instal a wood stove/fireplace; thats it!.

I have stated my point very clearly on this and have not tried to create diversions to other non topic issues like picture hanging and fatty diets.

This will be my last reply on this topic as I have stated my factual claim and can back it up 100% by a letter (to be viewed publically) from our local building dept.  As much as your *opinions* are based on wishful thinking, they simply are not true.

I certainly hear your point as to not wanting to obtain a permit for every little thing, we all would agree on that, but *legally*, concerning a stove/fireplace ...(and once again, that is ALL we are talking about), obtaing a permit is the legal code. Condoning anything otherwise is simply incorrect.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 26, 2007)

Listen, I really don't care whether you pull a permit or not.  If there is a fire as a result of an improper install, I really don't care.  You are not effecting me unless I am adjusting your claim.  Most of the people in this forum are not in my area.  I responded to the question.  I strongly urged people to pull a permit when installing a heating device in their home.  If you don't want to....because it is a PITA, don't, again, I really don't care.  GVA and I did pulled the permit.  Legally you are required to pull a permit.  And Web, I don't need to defend how many claims occur each year due to a stove.   The lawful thing to do, and the right thing to do,  is pull a permit.  You don't want to pull one for installing a fence, don't, again....I really don't care....you lack of doing what is legally expected of you is not my business.


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## Gunner (Jun 26, 2007)

If pulling a permit is required for payout, *then why are there insurance co. writing policies when no permit exists.* 

I hope everyone who sweeps there own chimney keeps photographic evidence. The fine print may say "cleaned and inspected atleast yearly" If you have a chimney fire and no record of cleaning you are S.O.L.

If I forget to close the door after loading the stove and my house burns down, was the stove still installed incorrectly?


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## jamorris (Jun 26, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Mr_Super-Hunky said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YOU LEAVE MY SCOOT OUTTA DIS! 

Jeeze!  I see tornadoes regularly.  I am going to worry about a plug in appliance??????  I got insulated double wall out through a Glass Block basement window.  Stove is installed as per maker, who has received National Certification.  If I get burnt, I'll figure it as a Tornado hitting smack dab on top of my ownself.  BTW, I can grab aholt of the pipe and hang on for as long as my bored self can tolerate and that pipe is not too hot.

As for risk taking,,,,,,,,,, I am on my second marriage.  The Scooter is safer.  But, the second marriage seems to be working out nicely.

Jerry


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## jqgs214 (Jun 26, 2007)

Wow,

Did not mean to start a rucuss.  My insurance agent said the Ins. Co. didnt even need to know (we told them anyway) as long as it was an insert and not a free standing fireplace.  My house has a C.O. for a fireplace and my Ins.CO. is considering my insert a fireplace.  Mrs-GVA would you now pay my claim or no??  BTW I have no permit. Thanks and sorry.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 26, 2007)

Just to make sure I am correct, discussed with my legal counsel at work....here is the response:

If a permit is required by the city or town, then it's a law.  If the homeowner doesn't get a permit where the law requires one, then the homeowner is breaking the law.  Homeowners insurance does not have to pay a claim when the loss includes the violation of a law. So, under the scenario you gave, if the homeowner was required to get a permit, by law, but failed to do so, then the Homeowners Carrier could deny coverage to the homeowner if the installation was faulty and there was a fire. The mortgage company would probably get paid - but the homeowner likely wouldn't see a dime because it would all go to the mortgagor.

Again, no two claims are alike.  This is based on the general rule.  Again....if you don't pull a permit, not my problem, GVA and I sleep like little babies knowing we adhered to the laws of our jurisdiction.


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Mr. Hunky does not think a permit is required to install an attic fan - I can assure him that running the electric to it, as well as cutting a hole in the roof and installing it are actions which many (or all) localities would consider permit types of jobs.

WX, you did not start a ruckus. 

As you see by the thread above, all the other parties - both pro and con - simply give their experience. I do not flame on Ms. or BeGreen when they give their facts and opinions. But when a member starts his first response to me accusing me of banning users, irresponsibility as well as my users of having low IQ's, it ruins the tone of a thread. Heck, I've been accused of being responsible for school shooting (that was another time), because I once created a comic strip. 

The person who jaywalks is not responsible for all pedestrian deaths, the person who smokes pot did not cause the crackhead to have a baby, and the person who has sex did not start the AIDS crisis. But the person who falsely accuses others of actions (true, false or in-between) without simply taking part in a conversation - and who thinks their "facts" are the only ones existing....well, I really wonder why such people even bother to converse. Like me, these experts should start their own sites. Since these people and their comPatriots are smart (have high IQ's), they would naturally gravitate there.


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Mrs-GVA said:
			
		

> Just to make sure I am correct, discussed with my legal counsel at work....here is the response:
> 
> So, under the scenario you gave, if the homeowner was required to get a permit, by law, but failed to do so, then the Homeowners Carrier could deny coverage to the homeowner *if the installation was faulty and there was a fire.* The mortgage company would probably get paid - but the homeowner likely wouldn't see a dime because it would all go to the mortgagor.
> 
> Again, no two claims are alike.  This is based on the general rule.  Again....if you don't pull a permit, not my problem, GVA and I sleep like little babies knowing we adhered to the laws of our jurisdiction.



Good explanation of the insurance opinion of your counsel.

OTOH, what if the installation was faulty, and it was inspected? Is installing contrary to the manual illegal? (I would think it might be, since the code says the manual must be followed, so one leads to the other)?

Would the insurance company pay then?

Actually, the thread is going somewhat OT, so maybe we will split and have another which specifically addresses our guesses as to whether insurance companies will pay claims in the case of faulty situations. As Ms. GVA so clearly points out "each situation is different. The person who plugs their electric heater into an extension cord that has a big tag on it telling them not to do may be acting illegally......in the respect of all that furniture and bedding that says "do not remove this tag under threat of law". 
http://ask.yahoo.com/20040726.html

Personally, I am ready for a celebrity death match between Hunky and Caveman.....my money is on Caveman due to the small head of Bravo and also Cavemans axe.


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## begreen (Jun 26, 2007)

FWIW, our county requires a permit for wood stoves. When I called the insurance company last year and told them I was pulling out both the old stove installation and the fireplace and replacing them with one new installation, I asked about needing a permit. Their answer was, "why? you're already covered for a woodstove?" Our stove installer (a major seller in the region with multiple stores) said they didn't usually pull permits and were reluctant because they were working out of county. It was up to me. We already had a mechanical permit pulled for the heatpump so no big deal, but there was resistance from two of the 3 agencies involved. The county of course was happy to take the money, but the inspection was a quick look at best.


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Here is the east, instead of counties what we have done is create a nightmare of hundreds of towns each with their own jurisdictions. NJ, as I remember, had over 800 local governments...and that is where the permits are pulled and questions asked. For many decades the inspectors were virtually allowed to make up their own rules (on top of codes, etc.) - now, at least they are supposed to follow some direction from the state. However, real world experience is similar to BG. No doubt if you asked about replacing stoves you would get different answers from different towns. 

When the internet first started getting big, they claimed sooner or later government would be going mostly virtual. It would be really nice if one could submit a question or even do the full application online....this would provide a trail of audit if needed. If the locality said no permit needed, you'd at least have an email saying so.

Although there is no summary to this thread, it is clear that at the very minimum that the homeowners insurance company should be informed of any solid fuel (or other attached heaters) use in a home. Perhaps it would be good to have it in writing from them that they have received the information from you.

Many of these are moot points since a lot of installers will not put in a new installation without a permit. However (again guessing), I would say that a vast percentage of chimney relining jobs and all other such things done by the thousands of chimney sweeps are usually not permitted (no permit pulled). I think they (wrongly) consider them repairs or upgrades.......of course, so do many inspectors, so it can hardly be expected for a customer or installer to know more than the locality about such a thing.

This thread reminds me of an MSG thread last winter - turns out that MSG told us that in Colorado it is quite normal for stove shops to sell wood stoves which sit in front of pre-fab fireplaces and then are vented through the chimney - with a liner. Never mind that such installations are not "legal" by any code or manual anywhere, but they were all inspected and approved by local authorities. As an installer and seller of such equipment, I would NEVER do such an installation. This is not to say that MSG or his bosses are fools......but that there are vast differences in the way things are handled regionally. If such an installation burned the house down, there would not be anywhere to find even one instance in writing where such a job was "by the book".


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## Gunner (Jun 26, 2007)

The question still remains; 

If pulling a permit is required for payout, and to be legal, why are insurance companies writing policies (taking your money) for ILLEGAL unpermitted installs?


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## MrGriz (Jun 26, 2007)

The thing that really gets me is that pulling a permit and having an inspection done may cover your butt legally and with the ins. co, but in many cases has nothing to do with ensuring a safe installation.

How many stories have we shared and read where the so called professional installer did a hack job and then the inspector signed off on it. While this does not seem to be the rule, it sure comes up more often than you would like it to. Mrs. GVA's statement that a stove or insert installed without a permit must have been improperly installed is flawed logic and a shining example of an insurance company looking for a way to automatically deny a claim. If a thorough inspection by an expert to determine the cause of the fire cannot determine whether or not the appliance was properly installed, how can it confidently determine the cause of the fire.

I am completely confident that my installation is safe, code compliant, safe, done to manufacturers specifications, safe and did I mention safe. I did it myself after a lot of research. I would also classify my installation as a very straight forward one, which fit into my skill level and ability. I put an insert into a sound, masonry fireplace with a good clean chimney. Had there been existing problems or major reconstruction required, I would have re-evaluated my decision to install the insert myself and probably would have hired the job out. My reluctance to pull a permit has nothing to do with the installation itself. I just don't believe that an inspection would add any value or benefit, other than the signed piece of paper, which I am beginning to believe I should have.

I did check with and notify my agent that I was installing an insert into my existing fireplace (which they already knew about). He said it was not a problem and that I was covered, since the fireplace was pre-existing. If I had that in writing I would feel better, but since I don't I think I'll go pull the permit and have the inspection done. As I said above, it seems to be more of a hassle than it's worth, but if it helps to close any loop holes or cover my butt I better get it done.


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

That one was answered in "every situation is different".

It may be illegal for insurance companies not to make certain you read their fine print. A lot of things are illegal. Maybe we should do some google searches on "my homeowners insurance won't pay" and see what some real world experiences are...(no kidding).

I realize my experience is limited - it consists of being in remodeling for 10 years and the stove retail and wholesale biz for another 20. Certainly it is 100% anecdotal, but I never had a customer in either case (construction or stoves) tell me about their homeowners insurance not paying for "normal" problems. I probably have more respect for insurance companies than some do - because I think they are realists and it is better customer service to pay (and increase premiums a bit), than to become meanies and keep premiums low. 

The insurance agents who told me (that they would cover most anything, permitted or not) were customers of mine...and one was my agent, but this was 20 years ago. Things may have changed, although it is more likely to be regional. There are usually more controls as you go up in population density. If I am an attorney, I'll betcha that it is more likely that my homeowners will pay for an "illegal" problem than if I am a poor single mom. The Golden Rule (whoever had the most Gold, rules) is always in effect in commercial transactions. That and "the squeaking wheel" are of utmost importance.

When you take any situation down to the fine print, there are always ways to deny anything. One of my favorite saying about Government is that when you ask, the answer is usually NO. That is because no is a lot easier than yes (with caveats). Luckily, things are more mellow up here in semi-rural western ma.....and in many towns, but I have seen both sides of the spectrum.

The situation is easy for the person who knows nothing - hire a pro and the pro should get a permit and inspection. For all those others, such as replacements, upgrades, DIY'ers, folks with local jurisdictions that will not answer their questions....well, then it gets a bit muddier. I'm hoping no one turns me in for that fence, although the tax accessor was here recently taking pictures of my back shed (no foundation 10x16)......if this continues, I'll have to move to NH or Idaho (live free or die)


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## karl (Jun 26, 2007)

Since this thread seems to have began to turn into insurance bashing I'm going to chime in again.  Everybody complains about insurance fraud, but what about the fraud the insurance companies commit.  I know a guy who's father died and the family went to collect the $100,000 insurance policy that the guy had been paying on his whole life.  The insurance company said we will give you $75,000.  You can sue us if you want but the lawyers will take 1/3 of it and you will only get $66,000.  Also, what about how they over inflate replacement cost.  The replacement cost they said I had to have works out to almost $187.00 a square foot.  This was ten years ago.  I bet if I got a new policy, they would up it to well over $200.00 a square foot.  My house is nice, but I'm sure it's no nicer than what everybody else here has.  You could buy my house for less than half of what they forced me to insure it for.


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## webbie (Jun 26, 2007)

Well, that is definitely OT, but I suppose it works both ways. I know a lot more people who took advantage of insurance companies than I know who got taken advantage of - but, then again, that is just my experience. Those folks whose claims are getting turned down after Katrina might tell you something else.

It relates to the thread in this manner though - best thing to do is to never need to collect on the insurance! However, my son totaled two cars in two years once, and I was pleased at the lack of problems getting the payout.

So, the real moral of the story is to be safe....which, then again, is somewhat the moral of this entire site! Safety is always a matter of degree, and each of us often chooses whether we want to sky dive, replace 220V circuit breakers, etc. - I will do the 220V, but I am not jumping anytime soon. I will also continue downhill skiing until I either hurt myself badly or am unable to get off the lift, etc.


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## GVA (Jun 26, 2007)

Mr Griz here is what she said regarding the Building Inspector (I put it in bold)

Now for a quick summary for the rest...
She's tired of beating a dead horse regarding permit or no permit.
Maybe I can break it down for everyone here....
Did it cause the fire?
Was it permitted?
Did you answer yes to both these than she'll pay the claim...
It doesn't matter if you are a moron stoking it with duraflames and 2x4's soaked in gasoline (unless it's arson).....
Now if you answered no to the permit part.......  Then comes an investigation, and most likley......Denial......
UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES............
If you have a specific question address it to the people who SHOULD be inspecting the permitted work or your homeowners insurance company..

MRS.GVA is just telling you if you got a permit your chance for recovery is far greater than without the permit...
Simple :smirk: 



			
				Mrs-GVA said:
			
		

> Highbeam said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MrGriz (Jun 26, 2007)

I agree GVA.  I wasn't trying to bash the insurance companies or adjusters.  My point is that my faith is in the installation I did, not the signed paper from the inspector.  Until the insurance issue came up, I would not have gone for the permit and inspection.  Since this issue came up, I may have found the one redeeming qulaity of the permit.

Edit: This thread shouldn't turn (or have turned) into an insurance bashing forum (there's probably one for that somewhere).  MrsGVA's points were enough to make me believe that I probably should have the inspection done to cover my butt.  I do disagree with her statement that an un-permitted installation must be flawed.  I can also see her frustration with the direction of this thread and the kicking of this dead mule.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 26, 2007)

MrGriz said:
			
		

> I agree GVA.  I wasn't trying to bash the insurance companies or adjusters.  My point is that my faith is in the installation I did, not the signed paper from the inspector.  Until the insurance issue came up, I would not have gone for the permit and inspection.  Since this issue came up, I may have found the one redeeming qulaity of the permit.
> 
> Edit: This thread shouldn't turn (or have turned) into an insurance bashing forum (there's probably one for that somewhere).  MrsGVA's points were enough to make me believe that I probably should have the inspection done to cover my butt.  I do disagree with her statement that an un-permitted installation must be flawed.  I can also see her frustration with the direction of this thread and the kicking of this dead mule.



Griz talk to your insurance agent first. They insured that place with a wood burning appliance, the fireplace, and all the insert did was make it safer. These are the words of my agent. "We insured the house with a working fireplace and a chimney connection in the basement. We don't need anything else for you to use them.". They are jerks on a couple of other things I am fighting with them on but on the stoves they are "Good Hands". 

As to the permit. Call as Mr. Cecil R. Elkimeg Esq. or something and ask a few questions first. Most localities will fine your butt for an after the fact permit/inspection.

Oh, and the horse never gets beaten to death. This is a twice a year event. Next will be the convection vs. radiant heat row and the "how much does wood shrink" donneybrook. Cat vs. non-cat isn't scheduled again until September I think, I will have to look at the schedule.

We can't do burn/don't burn cardboard this year because Dylan got whacked before Tony Soprano, so the quadra-annual pine/no pine festival will take its place.


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## GVA (Jun 26, 2007)

MrGriz said:
			
		

> I agree GVA. I wasn't trying to bash the insurance companies or adjusters. My point is that my faith is in the installation I did, not the signed paper from the inspector. Until the insurance issue came up, I would not have gone for the permit and inspection. Since this issue came up, I may have found the one redeeming qulaity of the permit.
> 
> Edit: This thread shouldn't turn (or have turned) into an insurance bashing forum (there's probably one for that somewhere). MrsGVA's points were enough to make me believe that I probably should have the inspection done to cover my butt. I do disagree with her statement that an un-permitted installation must be flawed. I can also see her frustration with the direction of this thread and the kicking of this dead mule.


No problem Mr.Griz
Just think about the insurance co and their investigation procedures... Like a car accident first thing done ....Who's fault is it.. correct...
now let's say a guy... we'll say 22 year old joe nitwit, was driving and was rear-ended by joe schmo, in mass the guy that caused the rear-ending is automatically at fault.
Now for a variable..... the guy in front (joe nitwit) doesn't have a licence that is..... he's not permitted to drive...
Joe schmo's insurance will not accept liability because Joe nitwit had no right to be driving in the first place (like Paris)...  Claim denied...  Joe schmo's ins. has to now go after joe nitwit....  It's a grey area too many variables out there in the world for every scenario or situation.
But currently what's done legally and illegally is defined in MOST areas, but we can read grey into everything...
Can you tell I live with an Insurance guru???????
BB you forgot the "my wood stove is better than your pellet stove" topic ;-P


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## littlesmokey (Jun 27, 2007)

Guess I am naive, but I just don't see the trade off to save a hundred bucks and not get the permit. If your insurance can be canceled, or a claim denied for not getting one, your loss is significant, in my case a hundred grand. I put a pellet stove in my office. The city and county said there is no permit requirement, got that in writing. Called the insurance company, no requirement to get a permit, no problem, they didn't have to send an inspector. Took a while to get that one in writing, but did get it, and had a rider added to the policy that there was an open burning appliance installed, cost me an extra two bucks a month. Then I did the install. Freaked my neighbor out the first time it started, he thought the building was on fire, so I probably should have added to my liability, because he almost had a heart attack. 

There are lots of un-necessary fees for all kinds of things, but if you should have a permit,  or it is required by law, pay the price and take your chances. My own experience says the ones who refuse have much more to hide and I think it may be a little embarrassing for these folks to let the inspector inside.


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2007)

So if the fire is from Duraflames it's ok? Somehow I doubt it. My suspicion is the adjuster would say "used in violation of the stove manufacturer's guidelines, page 0xx of the manual."

What's ironic about this thread is that what seems to be the real concern is insurance and not the safety of the installation. That should be the motivation, but as noted, not many inspectors are as thorough as Elk.Too bad. If you pay the money you should at least have the peace of mind of a job well done. However, considering how some insurance corporations have been operating, the concern is understandable.


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## littlesmokey (Jun 27, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> So if the fire is from Duraflames it's ok? Somehow I doubt it. My suspicion is the adjuster would say "used in violation of the stove manufacturer's guidelines, page 0xx of the manual."
> 
> What's ironic about this thread is that what seems to be the real concern is insurance and not the safety of the installation. That should be the motivation, but as noted, not many inspectors are as thorough as Elk.Too bad. If you pay the money you should at least have the peace of mind of a job well done. However, considering how some insurance corporations have been operating, the concern is understandable.



You are a Moderator, and I am a newbie, but I think you are wrong. I think we are trying to decide whether two hundred in expenses is worth your home. 

I don't see a forensic evaluation of the cause of the fire as the root issue. I see some folks trying to fudge the rules and if it goes bad, the insurance company should pick up the slack. Well, that certainly sounds like a fraud to me. If a claim is denied because you are to stupid, then this should be part of the policy, but if you did a no-no and you want the insurance to pick up the STUPID, then you are way off base. If you create a hazardous situation, you should stand the loss. 

You are a real cynic if you think an adjuster's is going to analyse the loss to find why you are not worthy to collect. They really aren't paid enough to try. I have had losses and when the adjuster said it was my fault, I took the hit. Too many seem to think they have a right to take from the insurance companies. I am not an advocate for the insurance folks, but I sure hate paying from the takers.


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

That is a silly way - in my opinion - to frame the question...whether $100 is worth your home!

People being people, let me give you a more natural type of scenario. Joe blow has done $100,000 of work on his home including an addition, a converted basement, a new kitchen and bath and more all without a permit. Now he wants to install a stove. He does not want to invite the building inspector....and possibly also then the tax collector - to see all this work!

Or, maybe the FORMER homeowner did all this non-permitted work, and therefore the property taxes are low. The new homeowner does not want the house taxes to increase substantially.

I am not approving of these situations, but I KNOW them to be par for the course....just do the math. If you believe (as I do) that more (small remodel) work is done without permits than with, then those billions in improvements are not being taxed. 

Don't shoot the messenger  - the point is that it is not $100 we are often talking about.....people have their reasons - from distrust of government to just an aversion to having ANYONE in their home....... So, as with most subjects we try to simplify here, it just ain't that easy. 

Well, actually it is....just as easy as making sure everyone pays 100% of their federal and state taxes. After all, the penalty for not doing that is quite serious. Yet offenders are probably our own neighbors (or ourselves, in some cases)....

Yeah, this is a repeat of many threads. Someone actually asked a yes or no question, but the answers were more than asked....

There is a certain streak of "freedom" in this country that causes people to do strange things...from having 50 guns in the house to protect themselves to distrust of authority. The same dude who stocks water and canned goods in the basement just ain't gonna invite the local authorities in to see his shelter or his stove.


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> I put a pellet stove in my office. The city and county said there is no permit requirement, got that in writing. .



Of course, according to the experts here - you did and do need a permit...just because they make a mistake does not mean you are not liable. It's like the IRS helpline which is wrong 40% of the time - you cannot later claim that they gave you the wrong advice......

So, you are probably one of those bad "illegals".

Where do you live.....? (state).


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## littlesmokey (Jun 27, 2007)

In for a pound in for a penny. Now I take on the Web. Well, simply put if you do an illegal $100,000 in remodel and the house burns down because you thought you knew what you were doing, but didn't and you want to save the taxes, or insurance payments, WHY do you think the insurance company should reward you? A Stupid F^^( justification for risking your life and your neighbors. 

Honestly, my shop is code, it is so code, they want to show others how to do it from my shop. Did I pull permits, NO. I bought the building with the install and let the inspectors loose before I took posession. All my electrical is in conduits, all my HVAC is outward vented, clean air supplied, the water is rated at 90 psi and runs full to the last tap. I have two hour burn walls and vents to separate all. So bring on the inspectors..... My insurance company is a national firm, but they have one issue. The structure is over 80 years old. They think nothing that old is safe. Well, the short and sweet is I am looking for a new company and will grant full access to all inspectors, but I know I am safe, not because anyone told me, but because I have seen what is there and I know what I am looking at and I know it is done right.


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## littlesmokey (Jun 27, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> littlesmokey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well in southern Idaho, if the official says no, then the answer is no.Your experts are totally wrong.  Screw the experts from your world. In writing is legal in court, do you want to challenge it? You can give me the "your experts" phrase, but my position is you are wrong.

You are welcome to besmirch my name, but I am legal in all ways. What you would like to think in not is in your mind. How safe is your total electrics and volatile exhausts?

It's not reasonable to label a deserter a Tax evader and a scofflaw when you are not dealing with anytihing but a very real issue that doesn't fit your mold. 

I will take a few hits, but you will not be able to silence the facts. You push, I shove. Match your data to mine, admit your wrong and I will admit mine. It's your site, but if you are really open, you need to give those who don't agree an opportunity to express their opinion. Your hammer is 10 lbs. heavy, but mine is 15.


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

Hey, little........I guess my being sarcastic does not transfer well over writing to the web.......

If you read the thread earlier, you will see that I definitely come down on your side - we (the consumers) often try to do the right thing, but find ourselves misled by the authorities........ the building official who used to hang here has sworn up and down that it is national code that things have to be done a certain way. He is probably right in point of fact (letter of the law).....but, as they say, the reality on the ground is often quite different. Things look different in Idaho, WV and TX than they do in NYC or Ma. - Ma. is arguably the most heavily regulated state in the USA because many fire codes and building codes were created here - and for good reason. People lived close together in cities and when your house burned, so did mine.

But in other areas, the attitude is "heck, if you want to burn down your place, be my guest - doesn't affect me"....

Having lived in WV and TN., I certainly don't remember seeing permits on the 1700 acres that we were building stuff on.....may have changed by now, but I doubt there were any inspectors to be found back in those hollows.

So, hey, I'm on your side - hold back on the death penalty and execution (of me) for an appeal.


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> In for a pound in for a penny. Now I take on the Web. Well, simply put if you do an illegal $100,000 in remodel and the house burns down because you thought you knew what you were doing, but didn't and you want to save the taxes, or insurance payments, WHY do you think the insurance company should reward you? A Stupid F^^( justification for risking your life and your neighbors.



Nah, web agrees with you. But I have seen the described situation many times. Just because a cop tells you he sees the lowest forms of behavior, does not mean he practices them himself (he may, or may not)......

In my case, my house is accessed at full (or actually higher than full) value - this is probably because my wife attends a town meeting or two and asks questions - when you do that, the local authorities jack up your taxes because that is one of the few pressure points they can apply. I try to stop her from pissing them off, but it is her hobby. I tell her it is getting expensive for me!

Again, don't shoot the messenger. I am merely stating some of the many reasons people don't want government representatives in their homes. Some have meth labs, some grow pot indoors, some rent out rooms, some do remodeling without permits, some hate authority (a mans house is his castle).....point is that behavior is complex, not simple like "who would be so stupid as to not do it for $100".

As far as the price of permits and safety, you will find a "way back" thread when I described the cost of gas logs installed into an open fireplace...

1. Way back - our shop used to simply refer a plumber who would install the logs - no permit
Logs: $299.
Install:$200.
-------------
$499 total

2. Now - My old shop installs them in-house and gets permits for all
Logs: $399
Installation - Starts at $650 and goes up from there
----------
Total: Well over $1,000

that is, of course, over a 100% increase in the total price to the customer. This is due to paperwork as well as the fact that the installation must be done is stages and inspected at least twice. 

Again, not complaining about it, just pointing out that it is not $100 difference. The more expensive the job, the less % of the cost that the permit is (in most areas) - also the jobs take a lot longer. In these cases, both customers and contractors are much more likely to comply. But the small jobs, where the permit is actually more work and time than the job itself, are another story.

I must admit that here in Western Ma. the process is simple. But a lot of my experience comes from NJ, where you walked in and they handed you a folder with a number of forms in it for any job. Here, they just have one sheet of photocopied paper - more my style. In NJ, you had to even answer on the form how many elevators were in the building!

I am not a contractor or store owner any longer. As a homeowner, I got permits for my shop, pellet stove, etc.....but the reality remains that much work goes on without them and I usually withhold judging people since they do things for their own reasons.


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## Highbeam (Jun 27, 2007)

It's not the 100$. It is the taking a half day off of work (loss half days wages), sitting in the room with a number in hand, having the counter person tell me I need a copy of my septic report (I know, totally unrelated), so then I go the health department (another half day), get the report, go back to the county, another half day off of work, she accepts my application, if lucky I get a call in a couple of weeks that it is ready, another half day of work, pick up a permit and pay the 100$. So far I have lost several hundred in wages, lost time, and great aggravation. Now the install and the potential for some yahoo inspector to jerk me around and maybe snoop at the other unpermitted jobs in the house. You tilled your field? Where's your permit for that? You have chickens? Where's your permit. That ceiling fan looks new, where's your permit.

It is NOT as simple as paying the money for a permit and inspection. It is a major PITA. I would gladly pay my professional installer double the permit fees at 200$ to have it permitted but the installers won't do it because they say it will cost additional several hundreds of dollars due to the PITA of inspections, waiting in line to pull the permit, hassle, etc.

Insurance companies do pay for stupidity. If I run a stopsign in my truck and cause a wreck then I am stupid. Yet, insurance will pay despite my being illegal and stupid. For homeowner's insurance we have heard in this thread that the policy doesn't cover lots of things and that is unique to homeowner's where it appears as though they are making every attempt to deny the claim and save the company money. Medical does the same thing, I smashed my finger at home and had to swear up and down that it wasn't on the job (L&I), at someone else's house (their HOI), or while in an auto (someone's car insurance). I have learned to expect the insurance companies to weazle out of paying up which is why I agree that a permit should be gotten despite the extreme PITA factor. Make no mistake- a permit is a PITA much larger than the permit fee.


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2007)

Agreed, the full permit process is a PITA. But most mechanical permits should be expedited. In King county, there is no health permit connection and a wood stove permit can be done over the counter or mailed in. http://www.metrokc.gov/ddes/acrobat/cib/23.pdf. Tell your county to get on the stick.


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## Gooserider (Jun 27, 2007)

I think the most irritating thing is that it's a PERMISSION you are asking for...  I could deal much more willingly with a law that said "you must have a fire safety inspection" on the modifications you make (which we can't stop you from making) as opposed to the current law that says you have no right to modify your OWN property without asking the permission of Big Brother...

If I'm renting a place, it makes sense that I have to have the landlords permission to make changes, it is his property not mine...  But we are told that we OWN the property, and that it's our right to do with our property as we see fit, so long as we don't endanger others.  Yet when it's our home, we suddenly have to get a "Permit" from Big Brother, who does not own the property, and they wonder why this galls?

Gooserider


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## BrotherBart (Jun 27, 2007)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Agreed, the full permit process is a PITA. But most mechanical permits should be expedited. In King county, there is no health permit connection and a wood stove permit can be done over the counter or mailed in. http://www.metrokc.gov/ddes/acrobat/cib/23.pdf. Tell your county to get on the stick.



When I worked for a local government a woman that worked there had a total of three months of delays in the construction of her new house because of slowness and screw-ups in the inspections department. She was livid.

She also worked in that department.


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2007)

I almost went through the same thing last year. The construction permit took me a few hours of submit and review. All went pretty well and I got approval for the foundation upgrade on the spot. Then they tell me - oh, now it has to go to the health dept. - that's in another town (20 min. to the north), and it will take 6-8 weeks to review. It was too late to hand carry the permit up, the office was closing in 15 minutes, so I asked about sending up to them (the normal process) - that takes a week! I let the process start, but told them I would be tracking and asking for it to be expedited considering there was zero changes in the septic nor any need to change. They agreed smiling and wished me good luck. 

6 days later the permit arrived at the DHS. I politely spoke with the receptionist, then the reviewer, then her boss. They were totally overwhelmed, the review would take maybe 10 minutes, but it would take 6 weeks to look at the permit. I asked why there isn't a DHS triage person at the main permit office that could handle this type of permit on the spot. That suggestion got me handed up to the head of the department. We went over the problem, she liked my idea, but had no staff to do this, in spite of the fact that it would reduce their load and expedite nearly a third of the permits. I knew this was a hot point with the county exec., so with the supervisor's blessing, I proceeded to contact the exec's office, congratulated them on expediting the permit process, but why this bottleneck when there was a pretty simple solution? All agreed and I was told they were getting on it and it would be on the exec's desk soon. A week later my permit was approved. Sometimes ya gotta be the squeaky wheel and if something's broke, figure out how to fix it.


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## Gunner (Jun 27, 2007)

What is a permit?















 :lol:


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

IN Canada, do you need a permit or is it just that an approved installer must be used?

I think this type of licensing would do much to alleviate the PITA part. In the case of the septic (OT, of course), I can now tell the story.....

In a former house I owned, I once had a septic problem. The pipes had filled and they were made of tar paper so they squashed to nothing......

I called a guy I knew who had done work for me before. He described the process of replacing the drain field. My property was 100% sugar sand, so it was a septic dream! Then he said "We can do the job with a permit - it will cost you $13,000....he said he does them that way every week. OR, he said, he would do it for $3,000 on the weekend AND DO THE EXACT SAME JOB if I helped handle the plastic pipe. 

Now, I ask Mr. Super Hunky for a simple vote. Up or down. $10,000 in savings, which at the time would take me about 3 years of savings to come up with?

Now, using the same licensing logic, if there would have been a way this guy could have been licensed to inspect his own....or use a bond or proxy for same - maybe it would have cost $4,000.....3 for the work, and 1 for the inspections. Fine - but $10,000 extra! That's a lot of cash, especially 20+ years ago.


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## Hogwildz (Jun 27, 2007)

My gray water runs out some PVC pipe out through the hill. Is that ok 
I smell ashcan coming soon for this thread.


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## Gunner (Jun 27, 2007)

Yes, you need a permit to be a "legal beagle" in Canada


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> My gray water runs out some PVC pipe out through the hill. Is that ok
> I smell ashcan coming soon for this thread.



I live downhill from you, and it smells different than ashcan, for sure!

Actually, most grey water can perk here and there, and compared to what those mines and factories around there have done, you are Mr. Clean. 
Back in my commune days, we ran the sink to a pit about 2 foot square with some gravel in it - worked fine...of course, our water use was probably 10 gallons a day.

Back in the old days, cavemen didn't even have PVC, so count your blessings.


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I think the most irritating thing is that it's a PERMISSION you are asking for...  I could deal much more willingly with a law that said "you must have a fire safety inspection" on the modifications you make (which we can't stop you from making) as opposed to the current law that says you have no right to modify your OWN property without asking the permission of Big Brother..
> 
> Gooserider



This is a BIG part of it for a lot of people. It comes down to how they are treated by the government. The real situation, of course, is that the person looking for the permit is a "customer" of the municipality and pays the bills for them. But I have had customer walk in my store crying (yes, they were female) after leaving the Building Dept. which was a few doors down.

Here in our little town, the inspector is in for 2 hours per week - I think 6-8 on tues. night......but since I am usually in no hurry, it doesn't matter.....BUT IF I WAS in a hurry, I would be a little pissed. However, I am treated like a human being there, and they say YES instead of no to everything I ask.

As I said, attitude makes all the difference. Treat people with respect, and they will go along. I think this was well said in the Golden Rule and also in the Bees with Honey. On the other end of the equation, we do have to consider that inspectors deal with some builders and others who are downright rude and mean, and try to get away with things - the end result being a poor product. This is where a tougher guy like our own Elk can be appreciated. So that is quite a balancing act - to be sweet to the average consumer, yet rise to the occasion when some ash-hole who has a lot of money at stake wants to take advantage of you....and, to top it off, you make $30 an inspection! I could not handle that job...I am not even tempered enough.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 27, 2007)

I have broken the code of silence, but feel it important enough to add insite to this diccussion No Craig,, there is no mention of any manufactures  PART one

I sitting in front of the key board wondering why am I going to report to work. Part of me is still convinced I can make a difference. I could ensure s the next HVAC system I inspect is a bit more efficient.. I can require leak testing I require all joints to be sealed.
I also look at fire block and draft stopping.  I going to make sure you burner is installed properly. That gas fireplace in the bump out the chase or bump out will be insulated and draft stopped to prevent cold air escaping in your home.  I may meet the HVAC contractor and explain the now code edition changes That’s right inspectors are also the educators

Lets examine the permitting process. In my office I have created my own wood stove permit application. Statistics point to our society being quite mobile, a lot of housing turn over. All information is gathered that correctly identifies the stove installed and the liner manufacturer. This becomes particularly important when dealing with gas stoves and aluminum liners. Most Aluminum liners are warranted for about 8 years./  I responded to CO incidents only to find the old liner riddled with pin holes.

So you are sitting in my office and we are discussing you installation In the discussion It is determined cross-sectional code required a full liner The home is about 10 years old and the fire place has been used a hand full of times I know I originally did the throat inspections and know the general construction.. I waiver the need for the condition report but not it needs to be cleaned. All clearances are discussed and the hearth extension You fill out the application and make a check out to the town o for $35

When requested to do the inspection I expect that it will pass. I have given the blueprint.
 I could impress the owner by using a ruler but I can count bricks I could use the angle mirror and check behind objects I could use the bore scope and see up the flue but the surround is off as required and every thing I see is in order. I would say 99% of inspections go this way

 Then there is the inspection request where the stove is installed before the permit was pulled  Its not supposed to happen this way but real world rat race mentality it happens more often than the prior correct sequence way.  The stove is an insert I arrive at the home and the surround is attached I’m not responsible to remove it and replace it.  The inspection fails.  I want to see that flue collar  connection I want to examine the block off plate Im going to use my angle dental mirror to determine the full liner is in fact present.
 Would not be the first time I discovered a direct connection when a full liner is paid for and required. The ruler is used to verify the lack of hearth protection or clearances to the mantal.

Here is another point not considered Warranty issues. As part of the listing and labeling of every major appliance is the language for code compliance For wood stoves it started in 1979 as part of the UL listing.  Every stove sold from that point on has language in its installation manual. To satisfy the listing, the stove must be installed to  listing and code compliance. Unless there is some other authority, Compliance requires the certified appointed officials to certify inspect. All thoses who followed the manual and installed according to the instruction must have missed the first page telling them permits and inspections are required and re4quired to satisfy the listing. The manufacture or indivual dealers can deny warranty claims on stoves not permitted. For two reasons one the full listing requirement has not been met and it is illegal for them to work on un
permitted installations. There have been many post here, where a stove was installed incorrectly and the dealer arrives to discover it had nothing to do with the stove. 

So what happens if I fail the installation? Usually the homeowner has paid the installer and is at their mercy to return to correct the violations.  The inspector can become your first line in getting the issues solved. In extreme cases I have made the phone call to the installer dealers to get it rectified.  It cut through the BS and things get done. An inspector can be a consumer advocate. Your best line in defence.

Let me dispels some argument presented in this post. First of all nobody is going to home depot and install 440 voltage anything. They do not sell products in the voltage line. 
 The argument that all people leaving home depot making illegal installations is weak I’m not saying it is not happening but every major appliance hot water hearters ect/ are require to post and list code requirements same as wood stoves . When one buys   furnaces and compressors from a supply house it is the responsibility of the seller to request the proper C&C license before delivery. The same requirements are in place for oil burners and hot water heaters.. The ultimate responsibility for doing things right is up to the intervals no matter where they purchase a product. The argument is real weak  because.. 15 people break the laws means I can advocate 15 more to break the law that is  ill responsible. Most of the time the  Hearth promotes safe responsible installation of stoves that home depot analogy does nothing to reinforce the core message of this forum. Only to detract form  the true intent here


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## elkimmeg (Jun 27, 2007)

part 2

In MA I do know we are working to streamline the permitting process. The state has standardized Electrical Plumbing and gas permits In fact they can be downloaded and printed out.  Our town opens every Wed night 5 to 8 for the persons not able to conduct business during normal working hours. We will also fax you forms should you request them.  
A word about I permitting fees In MA.: The building dept does not set the fees Theoretically fees are supposed to equal services rendered..  We are not supposed to turn a profit. But every town does and transfers the money to the general fund. Last year I was asked by out selectman to make fee recommendations I quarried all the similar towns and made my recommendations. They were rejected and requested that I increase them.
All fees we charge are based upon approved fees by your town’s alderman We do not set them. We can not waiver them without their permission. In essence the people set the fees. If you do not like them then it is your duty to question them..  Got to laugh when one questions the fee amount. Why are you questioning something you approved or by a person you voted for? 

IT is possible to sit down with me and chat/  I help you fill out the forms and you pay the permit cost and pick up your permit next day. Total  of your time involved 10 minutes,   Probability of passing the inspection 99%  Or we can mail it to you. If for some reason you miss me leave a phone number and I will return your call and discuss what needs to occur. 
My professional change If you hear of home rule or an inspector not wanting to get off his duff to do an inspection.  I will be very interested in researching such situations in MA. More on that if it leads to fruition.

As for getting permits and inspections after the fact:. Most inspectors usually accept the honesty and do not charge penalties, 

Web brings out a good point about our home being your castle  There are times I ‘m called do an inspection and discover un permitted work.; I may casually mention it and that some record Keeping is in order. There have been tines where I discover life safety issues.  that may not pertain to the immediate inspection. IS the general public opinion that you prefer for me to ignore them? I know too much government intervention is evil?
 What would you want me to do? To tell you how serious some instances are, I have discovered dis connected furnace vent pipes  My Co detector went off the charts. 
I may have saved a few lives that day.  Pretty cheap for $30 

Pretty easy to broad stroke inspectors and tell of some   less than stellar encounters.
 But like any profession there are some dedicated professionals that do not deserve being grouped and type cast in that general broad stroke. What amazes me you the taxpayers and voters appoint the very person you are critizing. If you expect more then do something about it.  Appoint the persons that best fit the job description of professionalism you desire. Your apathy is allowing the very situation to exist.


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## velvetfoot (Jun 27, 2007)

Of course elk, you realize the purpose of this entire thread was to get you out of hiding!


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## elkimmeg (Jun 27, 2007)

Too goose I too agree that each man’s home is his castle till it effects me. Not picking you out personally  lets juxxsupose  Say you wired something wrong that  created an electrical fire . That means taxpayer money going to cover FD cost to extinguish that fire that means part of my money. Eventually it also factors into my insurance premiums. Why Should I pay for your incompetence’s? Homeowners are allowed to do their own wiring but permits are still required. If the $30 permit fee picked up your error I think that is money well spent. Not only did it save you money but every resident in the town.
 Codes like laws are guide lines for being responsible citizens doing things right, A way of evening the playing field for all.. There will always be people that think they are above the law that is human nature. They’re are many that profess to know more than me concerning code.

Edit the post was so lagre that I had to split it I note now what I missed before it concerns Craig and I

I was going back to ccut and past it in but perhaps sincerity is best first hand so here goes even wost typing

 I have met WEb and Mrs web. I consider them oustanding people. The ones I would enjoy calling friends.

 Both of us are strong personalities and eventually friction can happen. As things heated up things should not have been said.

 To me the water has gone over the dam. Nothing worth dredging up again. Credit is due to Craig for providing the best information in the world concerning solid fule appliances..
All here have learned the importance of safety. 

Craig has done everything by the nunbers his addition his pellet stove all permitted and inspected I know He told me I have witness it in person.

There is another reason I have not posted and it has nothing to do with Craig
 A professional oppertunity has been offered me. IT is in my best interest to stay out of pissing wars on public forums.. If All works out

 I will limit posting here every word typed will have to be measured. No more feelancing. I never have lost the desire to promote safety and cleaner burning and I have a lot of things going on trying to enhance these ideals.. Some have already made it into our next addition of code.

Goose I need an address  elkimmeg@comccast.net  You never know I might spring free Saturday


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## jamorris (Jun 27, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Hey, little........I guess my being sarcastic does not transfer well over writing to the web.......
> 
> 
> 
> So, hey, I'm on your side - hold back on the death penalty and execution (of me) for an appeal.



The use of emoticons is more than an affection.  It does convey humor of many kinds.  When I see no smileys, I suspect seriousness.  


Jerry


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## webbie (Jun 27, 2007)

Hope you understand this stuff is not personal. Each town and inspector is different, and you can see from the answers here that many are uninformed (telling a guy he does not need a permit, for instance)....

It is a fine balance. The libertarian view - which is the "home is castle" idea, is central to most Americans. That is why many feel so strongly about guns and self-defense, but the attitude bleeds over onto ANYONE....and especially those who are perceived to be government. I must admit to getting pissed off when the tax lady stopped her SUV in front of my house, took pictures, then walked around to my rear yard and took more - without permission! Of course, they are mad at me because we did not let them in the house last time they wanted access.....it's part of my religion not to let these people in!

In the case of Home Depot, the point is this - and something I think you (and anyone who looks) knows. Many, if not most, materials bought there and at many other places are installed without a permit. Of course, we can't say whether it is 40% or 80%, but in any case it is billions of dollars worth. Acting as if this does no occur does not fix the problem. It is reality. So it is part of the discussion, period. As I have said, things are very different in NH than they are in even Ma. - Martha did some "get out the vote" work (house to house) there and was amazed at the "house is castle" attitude. In fact, they extend it to "property is castle" there.......pretty much anything goes (in many places). 

Probably my main point is that my apathy does nothing. I am a little ant, and if I stopped existing today things would not change regionally, nationally or world wide. By reporting on my experiences, both good and bad, I do effect things - but it works both ways. So one person may read my opinions and say "I'm not getting a permit, because I don't want my taxes to go up". Another person (like you) might read it and say "wow, some people have had bad experiences.....let me streamline the process and make it better so more compliance will be obtained".....now you may have done that anyway, but some other official somewhere may get the right idea - or, a well meaning forum member may have a problem in their local office and then suggest that they streamline, etc.

In other words, I accept the fact that Karma works in every way, and I believe in personal responsibility. The easiest way to have no effect is to say or do nothing. Instead, I may have some positive and some negative effect, which in the end (IMHO) brings out most of the relevant info (like this thread), so that the educated customer can see all the angles and experiences...and opinions.

I guess I see Forums as just discussions and opinions, and even BS and entertainment. When we start looking at them as fact, I think we make a mistake. That is why there are articles and even wiki entries here, because they are checked and edited....these forums are not. So, to like it to the strip joint, thinking or looking is probably doing no harm (whether at the chippendales or about a permit)...what matters is the actual safety of the installation, as well as the use - and also that the homeowner have the facts so they can make certain they can rest easy at night when it comes to insurance and similar matters.

As an experiment, I'm going to try this......

hey, Hog - get a permit and fix that grey water thing!

(now we will see if it happens).


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## elkimmeg (Jun 27, 2007)

the human side of being an inspector  not discussed here

 Jefff bought a Jotul kennebec insert he is going to do a self install. He is not all that sure he is capable but after talking the process threw he feels He can do it.
 A few more calls come in and Jeff is looking for support and  solutions. Finallly he is ready for the final inspection. I mean the tape measure is sitting on top of the stove the manual is opened and instructions highlighted. Its a perfect install.. Over  by the kitchen table working in the kitchen is his wife listening to every word spoken.. I sign off the permit at the table and inform Jeff's wife
 what an excellent job he did.  Forget master card that was priceless. I willing to bet Jeff would have paid double my fee to have his wife hear of his craftsmanship


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## TMonter (Jun 27, 2007)

I believe the solution to inspections would be to put the onus on the insurer to require an inspection on new appliance installation. 

You want to be insured? You have to follow your insurance company rules.

I guarantee if inspections were done by insurers they would be more thorough and more stringent.

Power Boilers are this way and the inspections and certifications are required by the boiler insurer. Some states do have boiler inspectors, but the insurance inspectors I have met are far more stringent than state inspectors.


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## begreen (Jun 27, 2007)

Welcome Elk, good to get the inside perspective. I have no qualms with inspectors. The one that signed off on our foundation was a real nice person. He raised a few concerns. I thanked him and addressed them right away. Actually I think a good inspector is worth his weight in gold if you have a so-so contractor. It's nice to have someone on your side.

But I'm no angel and have rewired hot water heaters and moved an occasional outlet sans govt. intervention. However, I'm not condoning this unless you know what you're doing. If not, or you're doing it for the first time, having a set of professional eyes looking over your shoulder could save you money and possibly your life.


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## Mrs-GVA (Jun 27, 2007)

Its absolutely amazing how Elk can change most perspectives.  Elk, I'm glad that your back!    You brought to the table the value of pulling a permit.  Now everyone has had an inspectors point of view, an adjusters point of view (I don't go to work every day finding ways to deny the claims), installers point of view....we've gone through the entire spectrum of whether or not to pull a permit and after 7 pages....I should hope a person can make the right decision.


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## Gooserider (Jun 28, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Too goose I too agree that each man’s home is his castle till it effects me. Not picking you out personally  lets juxxsupose  Say you wired something wrong that  created an electrical fire . That means taxpayer money going to cover FD cost to extinguish that fire that means part of my money. Eventually it also factors into my insurance premiums. Why Should I pay for your incompetence’s? Homeowners are allowed to do their own wiring but permits are still required. If the $30 permit fee picked up your error I think that is money well spent. Not only did it save you money but every resident in the town.
> Codes like laws are guide lines for being responsible citizens doing things right, A way of evening the playing field for all.. There will always be people that think they are above the law that is human nature. They’re are many that profess to know more than me concerning code.
> <snip>



Notice what I said Elk, I am less bothered by the idea of having a required "safety inspection" - especially if as you said that it should be, a case of the fee pretty much matching the costs of the service, it shouldn't be a "revenue center" for the town, and it shouldn't be a means for the tax man to jump your assesment...  To the extent that the process is merely a safety check, I have relatively little problem with it, as the gov't does have a legitimate interest in reducing demand for it's emergency services.  (I won't get into the more interesting question of whether the gov't should BE in the emergency services business...)  

Where I have a problem is with the notion that I have to get big brother's *PERMISSION* to make modifications to _MY_ property...  If I own something, I should be allowed to control what is done to it, and the gov't should not have any power to tell me I "can't" make the change as long as there is no safety related reason to prohibit it. (And in "borderline cases" the burden of proof that something is unsafe should be on the gov't) I am especially bothered when the gov't attempts to refuse to allow things like cosmetic choices. such as prohibiting vinyl siding, or non-wooden replacement windows, or tells you what color you can paint your house... Perhaps it should be called something other than a "permit"  :question: 



> Goose I need an address  elkimmeg@comccast.net  You never know I might spring free Saturday



Will send an e-mail with the info...


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## webbie (Jun 28, 2007)

Ah, but Goose - if I am not wrong, the tax man looks at all permits which add value to the house. I'm not certain exactly the mechanism, maybe Elk can explain, but your taxes do go up based on the value of improvement. And, to top it off, if you decide to save a lot of money and DIY your addition for $30,000, when they come to revalue your house, it will be by the sq. ft and your addition may cost you 100,000 in extra tax basis.

Of course, that is OT.....but it is reality. In cases such as stove, I suppose they simply add the declared permit value ($3,000, for instance) to your basis.

Most of the prohibiting of colors, siding and stuff is in deed for historic area and developments...not the government. Even when it is the government, it is because citizen (usually a historic society) pressure them to do so. I

It's sort of a vicious circle - everyone wants their house and property to be nice, but the nicer they get, the higher the taxes get! There is really no such thing as "fair" in this whole business, since you might own a house valued at $600,000 and have no kids, while the neighbors have one valued at $200,000 and five kids (in the local schools).

People have told me that in some areas of NH, there is a sort of contest to make your house look worse instead of better - so less taxes......more live free or die, and why Goose probably has plans to move to the Free State someday.


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## begreen (Jun 28, 2007)

This seems universal. In India and Mexico you'll see building with lots of rebar sticking up out of the upper parapet. Kind of like the 2nd floor never got added. They don't finish the building intentionally because that's when you have to start paying taxes on it.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 28, 2007)

Back from golf I chose goose for the example because. We have spent time together I also know he straightened out faulty wiring a passed by a previous inspector
 And i knew he would he would view it not personal  but situational.. Really the wiring issue may not apply to him. To those that are new here I am a prat time inspector paid per inspections
 Really it cost me money to do inspections I make more money with a hammer in my hands.  You may ask why do it?  I liken it to the professional athlete   doing broadcasting. T
 As we all age the physical toll starts being an issue. We are not 21 anymore.  That 90 lb bundle of shingles going up a 30' ladder starts being quite a chore. I figured If I took my years in construction and use the practical knowledge and apply it to inspections, I feel like the athlete being still part of the game.  I admitt when it is below 10 inspections look pretty good atleast I  have some income. Originally I was certified   as a local inspector by Boca  which now is non existant called the Internalional codes. At one point 12 years back a contractor took accception to failure and it happened to be a job I bid on..  He calimed I singled him because of that.  and tried to get me fired.  I had code backup and I'm still here. It was  too close a call for my building commissioner and he appointed me Mechanical inspector. It keep me on the payroll, but reduced my inspections. I took it upon myself to learn what is expected of me on the Job. I even went so far as to read the trade schools HVAC text books. I wanted to know what was being taught and apply it to what I was inspecting in the field. Little by little I gained the knowledge and acceptance of many Mechanical contractors. The good ones welcomed enforcement and took me aside to teach me. They wanted an even playing field. Eventually I gained industry wide acceptance and reconition at the state level. I was one of a few that really understood mechanical inspections.  Meanwhile I actually studied  and passed all Boca mechanical certifications . Probably the only certifid mechanical inspector in MA.

Just like most professions one has to want to suceed one has to want to be better  When I do an inspection I know what it is like being the contractor with payment hindging upon my signature.
 I also know how to handle situations should I find issues.. I will contact the HVAC contractor and get them resolved. Many appreciate this.. Kinda like solving things in house And not showing up the contractor. This method works extremely well. Again like all posters here I am a homeowner I know it is my job to look out for their best interest.  Years have taught me the best way to ballance this . One weights the battles or stands worth fighting and value judgement the minor issues.  busting some for being 17.75" of clearance of single wall pipe is a non issue. Standing up for life safty issues against bid coperations is another..  I risked being sued into financial ruin for a stand I took against Sacks fith Ave. I backed them down. Some may ask why all for $30  Most days inspections are straight forward, most contractors do a good job.

I'm sorry some have not had the best experience with their local inspectors. It does not have to be this way.


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## stoveguy2esw (Jun 28, 2007)

PURE HIJACK welcome back elk , missed ya buddy!


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## BrotherBart (Jun 28, 2007)

I managed the closing of a world-wide data center in NJ back in tthe 90's. When we couldn't lease the building we tore the roof off of it and that stopped the property taxes.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 28, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> I'm sorry some have not had the best experience with their local inspectors. It does not have to be this way.



Glad you weren't the inspector that my builder cold cocked right in the front yard of the house Elk.

In that case the builder was right. The inspector just didn't like him and was giving him grief for the hell of it.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 28, 2007)

To answer web concerns probably a little history is required and this goes beyond hearth topic specttrun. Allow me to present it .I think all town are facing this delimar.. 
Back in the early 80's MA votters passed prop 2.5 . Meaning the most the realestate taxes could be raised each year was 2.5%. This worked well originally but increased healthcare 
benifits increase well beyond 2.5  add in the increases of fuel and state mandated special ed cost all town faced deposits..  When things were booming the state aid took care of most cost. Things are not bomming and the state cut back financial  support of programs they mandated. Every town experiences short falls of income and even level funding does not help. We expect certaint services and to keep that level it cost. Towns have to be creative in finding ways to make it up.  One way is to tax improvements ie looking at building permits. Believe me in a time of need the last excuse you want to hear, We would have responded 15 minutes earlier if we were not under staffed..  All funds are placed in front of town meetings for approval or town meeting reps.   You do have a vote should you decide to excersise it. I applaud Mrs web for taking an active roll. At least she is trying to make a difference.  We can sit here and complain tha goverment is taking on it own adjenda and not acting in out best interest. On the local level it is not dem ve rep. Last town meeting I attended last week, approved the entire year budget 21 million. Guess how many voter attended 66    out of 6600 registered.  Unless you are active like Mrs web, then all have little grounds to complain about.. You got a crapy inspector then who is to blame? look no further than you own mirror.  Compalining about apathy rules will not garner any support from me.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 28, 2007)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> elkimmeg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



bb really i have to measure  what I post on a public forum, but I have had a few very inseresting situations not unlike the one  you wittnessed
 The only exception was I was not being a jerk, but doing my job.  You may email me if you need more details


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## BrotherBart (Jun 28, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand. I am not a big fan of homebuilders. I used to work with one's wife. She always told me "Don't believe a thing they say. They all come over to my house on Friday night and drink beer and talk about how they screwed you out of something and laugh like hell."

At the closing on my first house I invited the builder out to the parking lot. On this last house we just had a little "Come to Jesus Meeting" before we went to closing. I told him I would be a little harder than the inspector.

What a racket.

On the first house though the VA inspector turned out to be a real buddy. And had guts too. The whole family room and the cabinets and kitchen area facing the family room were done in on-site stained and finished ash paneling. On the bar facing the family room was one piece of un-Godly nasty grain in the paneling. I argued forever with that builder and he wouldn't change it. At the VA walk-through the inspector looked at it and said "Do you really want that?". I said "No.". He looked that builder straight in the eye as he put his boot right through that piece of paneling. Steam was coming out of the builders ears but he didn't say a word.

The inspector wouldn't sign off till it was replaced, and it was. That day.

Inspectors can be your friends.


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## littlesmokey (Jun 28, 2007)

I'm just a new guy here, but we are complaining about a very simple issue. THERE IS NO PRIDE IN WORKMANSHIP. Fifty years ago those builders would be picking up the trash at a true contractors site. We now have inspectors because we can not see the trash work that is done and we accept the contractors word. That service is not free. Should we not pay the inspectors? Should we pay them about the same as the illegals and turn them loose to collect their "fee" from the contractors. I'll argue quality with anyone, so if you don't see this as a, " push it to someone else and I am innocent " Lets talk the talk.


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## Gooserider (Jun 28, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> To answer web concerns probably a little history is required and this goes beyond hearth topic specttrun. Allow me to present it .I think all town are facing this delimar..
> Back in the early 80's MA votters passed prop 2.5 . Meaning the most the realestate taxes could be raised each year was 2.5%. This worked well originally but increased healthcare
> benifits increase well beyond 2.5  add in the increases of fuel and state mandated special ed cost all town faced deposits..  When things were booming the state aid took care of most cost. Things are not bomming and the state cut back financial  support of programs they mandated. Every town experiences short falls of income and even level funding does not help. We expect certaint services and to keep that level it cost. Towns have to be creative in finding ways to make it up.  One way is to tax improvements ie looking at building permits. Believe me in a time of need the last excuse you want to hear, We would have responded 15 minutes earlier if we were not under staffed..  All funds are placed in front of town meetings for approval or town meeting reps.   You do have a vote should you decide to excersise it. I applaud Mrs web for taking an active roll. At least she is trying to make a difference.  We can sit here and complain tha goverment is taking on it own adjenda and not acting in out best interest. On the local level it is not dem ve rep. Last town meeting I attended last week, approved the entire year budget 21 million. Guess how many voter attended 66    out of 6600 registered.  Unless you are active like Mrs web, then all have little grounds to complain about.. You got a crapy inspector then who is to blame? look no further than you own mirror.  Compalining about apathy rules will not garner any support from me.



As a note, both the GF and I are elected Town Meeting Reps, and have not missed any TM sessions since we've been elected...  Can't say it's changed a great deal other than making a few minority votes, though we have stopped a few raids on the town reserve funds (Currently the fiscal conservatives in town are right at about 1/3 of TM, so we can win on 2/3 votes, but not simple majorities...)

I am also on the:
General By-law Review Committee
Rules Committee
Compost Site Committee
Cable Advisory Committee

I've run for Planning Board, and have been turned down several times for Finance Committee...  

On the Partisan level, the GF and I are also on the State Committee of the Mass Libertarian Party.

I don't think I suffer from Apathy...  :lol: 

Elk is correct in that local gov'ts are in a squeeze situation, primarily because of unfunded state and federal mandates - everything from "Special Needs" in the education system, to changes in the water and sewer treatment plants, not to mention employee health insurance, (mostly over rich Union contracts, which we have trouble rejecting when a majority of Town Meeting reps are either Town employees or family members - but the State Ethics people say there is no conflict of interest when a TM rep votes on his own contract... :-S ) and energy costs...

One of the things that is starting to come back to haunt us and many other communities has been that part of the "creative financing" used to pay for the other expenses is skipping on infrastructure maintainence and repair, but this is something that can only be put off for so long, and is starting to reach the point where it can't be pushed much longer - Here in town we have severe problems with some of the major sewer lift stations that are basically at "End of Life" - failure will be disastrous, but the pumps are seriously worn out...

Gooserider


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## webbie (Jun 28, 2007)

Politics is a whole 'nother story, but suffice it to say that local government that are not partisan are often the exception, not the rule. My friends in VT don't even know the party affiliation of their local councils, which is great (in my opinion).

And Goose seems to describe the same in his area.....maybe.

But in our little hamlet of 5,000 souls here, it is more of the same that we saw in NJ. Certainly citizens here are more involved in terms of going to meetings, but our town is controlled by Dems, who are now the "bad people" (in our NJ town, it was GOP who were the "bad people"). Whereas Martha was a democrat in NJ and the other party was "bad", here in our town she sits for a beer with the lone GOP'er, who is now the "good" guy! Since all the tax accessment stuff is done by a local hire who is controlled by the council, all they have to do is to say that word and your house accessment will go up more than your neighbors did. Sure, you can fight it - we did, and won a battle (one time rebate), but lost the war (forever higher accessment). To give you an idea of how "fair" it is, when we went in with comps and clearly showed how we were valued too high compared to a number of other houses, the accessor said "your's is right, those others are all wrong". (in other words, get an attorney or shut up).

If it floats one's boat, be my guest and bang thy head against the wall. Martha spent about 5 years going nuts down in NJ (24/7) and she could claim to have stopped millions from being spent....with some truth - BUT, not only did they get around it when she was there (they had majority), but they went on a complete orgy the minute she left......taxes never went down one cent and in fact went up virtually every year when she was in and after that.

Certainly I am a cynic in this case - but you will often do more good by mowing the lawn for your elderly neighbor than trying to save $1.00 for the (usually ungrateful) populace of your municipality. Nepotism and favoritism reigns, and certainly one can claim to win some skirmishes, but will always lose the war. 

Back to the inspectors and permits - as I said, our town does a decent job....although there is a new guy now since the last dude got kicked out for not having the right credentials. But I have no beefs with them, even with their 2 hours a week manning the office. If I wanted to live in a big city, I would have moved somewhere else. I'm more into the Jamacian way "Soon come" was always the big saying down there.

As far as inspector pay, that is a joke here in Ma - in NJ it was a highly paid profession, as well it should be. That amount of applied knowledge is something which few people have. While I am not going to march on city hall and tell them to pay more (inspectors should ban together and do so!), it is an insultingly small amount of money for a home visit. 

Yes, yes, I know these threads go way OT. My excuse is this - it is summertime. When the crunch hits we'll try to keep things on the straight and narrow.


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## elkimmeg (Jun 28, 2007)

Craig and I exchanged a few e-mails and I agreed that perhaps My direction needed a course adjustment.

It took some time to self reflect and I have some other interesting things going on.

Matha needed another Red Sox fan and moral support fighting city hall. You are not alone


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## keyman512us (Jun 28, 2007)

littlesmokey said:
			
		

> I'm just a new guy here, but we are complaining about a very simple issue. THERE IS NO PRIDE IN WORKMANSHIP. Fifty years ago those builders would be picking up the trash at a true contractors site. We now have inspectors because we can not see the trash work that is done and we accept the contractors word. That service is not free. Should we not pay the inspectors? Should we pay them about the same as the illegals and turn them loose to collect their "fee" from the contractors. I'll argue quality with anyone, so if you don't see this as a, " push it to someone else and I am innocent " Lets talk the talk.



Agghh..."That is a pretty bold statement my friend (about pride in workmanship)...There so...I shall retort..."

There is pride in workmanship in the trades. Only problem is...the market doesn't support it. If you think I'm pulling your leg...go "hang out your shingle and get into the game..." It really makes you wonder what the h^ll some people are thinking sometimes...when you loose a bid for $50 bucks...to a "toal hack", then get called later to fix the other guys mistakes. As a contractor (electrician), I often times tell people flat out...the reason my price is x-# of $$$ HIGHER is I'm not going to hit you with any "surprises" last minute. If I see a problem on a bid that will conflict with the work....you better believe you'll hear about it. Best example: "A Service Change"...don't know how many times I've heard "Joe so and so is gonna give me a 200 amp service for only 50 bucks more than your price with a 100 amp service..." Wish I had no morals like joe so and so. "Yeah buddy...he is going to soak you another $250 bucks to 'upgrade you' to a 200 amp panel...which you really don't need for your 1950's salt box with no load to really speak of... instead of splitting up the circuits in that 'four main and range' panel that micro surgeons have worked on for the last twenty years...that 200 amp panel is gonna solve all your problems...after he gets done...you will wish you kept that old fuse box with 'all green fuses' in it...let me know how you make out..."
Unfortunately...electricians are their own worst enemy in regards to public perception. This "mysterious trade of ours" makes people think we are all crooks that just ride around changing light bulbs all day and resetting tripped breakers.

If you want a really interesting debate...Yeah Sure...let's talk...lol 

"Good work ain't cheap...and cheap work ain't good.."


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## titan (Jun 28, 2007)

Keyman, I thought you electricians were just wire pullers, but you change bulbs and reset breakers too?You could make a fortune up here! ;-P


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## Gooserider (Jun 28, 2007)

I know it always used to be amusing when driving south on the SE Xway out of Boston to count all the burned out bulbs in the billboard on electricians union hall that said why we should hire Union Workers...  OTOH, I did some work helping a friend wire up an outdoor gazebo - I'm not an electrician, but I can read a "how to wire" book...  His mother insisted on pulling a permit to keep the insurance company happy, and was delighted to tell me about how the inspector liked my work, said I'd exceeded code requirements consistently throughout (like it was difficult or something?)

Most of wjat I did extra was either minimal extra expense, or done in the interests of having additional functionality, probably took a couple hours extra, but not a lot of time.

I used 12g instead of 14g wire - IMHO all house wiring should be done with 12g if you are putting more than lightbulbs on the circuit.

I used weatherproof Romex - I wasn't sure how an unheated gazebo would be counted, it was fully enclosed, but is it an exterior or interior location?

The gazebo was 12' x 12' inside, w/ the door in the middle of one wall.  They probably could have gotten away w/ one outlet, but I put one in the center of each wall, and one on each side of the door per code requirements on outlet spacing...

I screwed down the wire connections on the outlets, and then wrapped with a couple rounds of tape before putting the outlets in the box - IMHO backwiring shouldn't be allowed, and the tape helps prevent any possibility of shorts.

I fed the AC wiring to the gazebo via 1" underground NMT conduit, buried 18" - I could have used Burial grade Romex 12" down, but I was also going to be running low voltage (phone / ethernet / CATV) which needed to be in a conduit, and it's not any harder to run two conduits than it is one in the same trench, which I might as well make 18" since that was the deepest the trencher could go...  Renting the power tool means 18" is no harder than 12" :coolsmile: Since I was using 1" for the low voltage, it was simplest to buy everything the same size for both runs...

I ran the Romex through drilled studs rather than nailing across the surface, as my friend said they might want to finish the gazebo interior some day...

Stuff like that...  Didn't take much longer, added maybe $50 to the total cost, and the job was several times better...

Gooserider


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## begreen (Jun 29, 2007)

Keyman, I hear you dude. Most people still have very little knowledge of electricity. When I was wiring in my younger years, I got into a heated argument with the carpenter on site one day. The client was a young lady with her first house. Her finances were limited, but she wanted things done right. I was called in because she wanted to change over her fuse panel to circuit breakers. She had a 100 amp service in an all gas house so I recommended she stick with that size service. At that time WA state was pushing to build 5 nuclear plants (in a hydro rich state!) with its now infamous WPPSS fiasco. They were pushing 200 amp services as the only way to go. I come to the job the next morning and the lady says her carpenter has her all worried because he's told her she's making a big mistake. He says she HAS to have a 200 amp service and that if she didn't, she risked burning down the house! Oy! I called over the carpenter and asked him where he got his info from and what was his load analysis to back such a statement up. He waffled, but I wasn't about to back down. I asked why he would go about scaring a customer about something he knew absolutely nothing about. He muttered something about  being on plenty of jobs and talking to plenty of electricians, but in truth he didn't know squat about electrical work. We ended up by agreeing he wouldn't like me inspecting his work or worrying the homeowner about his work and shut up. 

It takes all kinds of people to get a project done. A funny scene happened when we were remodeling upstairs a few years ago. I'm in my office and the contractor comes down and says, 'can you come up, we have a problem'. Uh, oh, I go up to see what the issue is. The floor has all been pulled up down to the joists in preparation for new underlayment for the bathroom tile. There is a lot of knob and tube wiring showing. The contractor has a somber look and says, 'we can't cover this up. now's the time to fix this.' I thought this was odd because we had new recessed cans installed by the previous owner in the kitchen below, so I asked if it was live and he said -You bet!. He pulled out a Walmart circuit tester that was supposed to beep near a live circuit. He held it near the wiring and voila, it chirped loudly. As he went back to his work I studied the knob and tube and traced it back a bit. Sure enough, a few feet away it had been cut. The previous installer had simply left the old stuff in when he wired new. I didn't let the contractor know, instead I called him over and asked to see he tester. He brought it out and demonstrated it's superb capabiliites again. This time I grabbed the old wire and faked getting badly shocked and unable to let go of the wire. I think he almost had a heart attack so I tugged on the wire until the cut end was visible in my hand. Then I grabbed the other cut end of the circuit to show it was just an open piece of wire. He calmed down and promptly threw his Walmart tester in the trash. 

However, our construction foray last summer showed me there are both sides of the fence. Housing is still booming here. And there are a lot of folks moving up from California. That is having the unfortunate side effect of artificially boosting wages here. There is so much work that fairly mediocore workers are asking $40-45/hr. A couple weeks ago, we had one carpenter come to look at finishing our siding and said he gets $70/hr.! The problem is that for Californians, used to paying high prices for everything, and flush with cash from selling out in SF or LA, they just shrug their shoulders and pay. We had to let go a couple of contractors last summer because, although they thought they were hot stuff, they really were just promising young amateurs that still had a lot to learn. After having a couple windows installed with zero shim space and sheetrock patching of a different thickness in one section, I sent them packing. It's one thing to know how to pound nails and a whole nother to have the depth of experience of a person like yourself or Elk. I have no problem paying a good wage to skilled craftsman - we finally found a couple that finished things up nicely. But it seems like lately, there are a lot of less-than-skilled workers and contractors out there that are perfectly content to get away with murder and then cover it all up and make it look pretty on the surface. Maybe this is because we're in a rural area with a finite pool of labor, but a lot of these guys are getting away with amazingly crappy work. And the good ones are not interested in small jobs. They're too busy building palaces for the CA immigrants.


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## littlesmokey (Jun 29, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> littlesmokey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





In my rush to respond, I made too simple a statement. There are still lots of craftsmen that do very fine work, ask for and are paid a premium for their work. There are also lots of people that should be working at WalMart that think they are in the contracting business.

 A friend who is a plumbing contractor is Sun Valley (now retired) was actually sued by a homeowner for work another contractor totally messed up. My friend had bid the job for a complete new house, the other contractors bid was $10,000 less. Homeowner took the other bid. Job was done, passed and mortgaged when the owner moved in and within a week had raw sewage in the basement. I don't know all the details, but my friend went out and bid the repair, or complete reinstall, now in a finished house. The bid was more than double the original bid, obviously. The homeowner sued claiming my friend was gouging him and that it should be done for the original bid amount. He never sued the original contractor, because he had moved on to another resort town. The case went to court and was thrown out immediately, but my friend had the attorney fees to bear. That's when he retired. 

It's rather scarey to think what the new homes will look like and function like in say 20 years?? I certainly wouldn't want to have one of the tract homes that I see being built at the rate of one a day. There can't be much pride in that work.

Sorry if I offended any true craftsmen. That was not my intention. I guess I stooped to the lowest rung on the ladder and stopped.


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## webbie (Jun 29, 2007)

Educated consumers are the key - and that is sort of what we do on Hearth.com.

While Elk is certainly on one end of the spectrum (in terms of what he would expect from subs if he built a house), even a less educated customer can have demands which will push the builder to do better. This does often involve paying more. Our builder, who lives three houses down, is in no way a craftsperson.....well, his wife and daughter are, but his claim to fame is like Elks grandparents...he lived around here for decades and had some land and the contacts - and, most importantly, he has good subs! It just may be luck, or it may be experience. He used to build lower priced simple ranch homes and capes, but in the last 5 years or so he gravitated toward more upscale places for folks like us....empty or almost empty nesters who sold their last (usually long term) houses for a good profit. There is an ass for every seat. Upscale around here is different than upscale in Hilton Head (here, it means 2200 to 3200 sq. ft, 9 foot ceilings downstairs, granite counters and a 2 car garage).

Luckily, most of the people who I have hired since I moved here have been folks who have pride in their work. And, even if some did not, at least those were not doing the finish work! While an electrician may be different, being a carpenter or GC is largely a matter of knowing how to fix mistakes.


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## begreen (Jun 29, 2007)

I disagree. Being a carpenter is largely a matter of having knowledge and skills, being able to do math ( a real shortcoming in this trade) and knowing how to avoid making mistakes in the first place. It's a poorer carpenter that makes mistakes and then fixes them, all at the customer's expense. And sometimes, burying mistakes yet making it look pretty, like Mo is running into, can be really costly to fix a few years later.


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## jqgs214 (Jul 1, 2007)

To get back on topic, I submitted my permit application on Friday - no need for an electrical permit like I was previously told.  3 copies of my property survey, 3 pieces of notorized applications $100.00 and 20 minutes of waiting my turn and I should have the permit by next weekend and be legit.  Not as much a PITA as I was led to believe from my first conversation with the local building dept.


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## DriftWood (Jul 2, 2007)

Wonderful post Elkimmeg on the permitting process Good luck in all you are doing to NOT LET IT HAPPEN!!   Keep us informed as you have time Once again Thank You for all your time spent posting here.

Yes I got a permit for both of my DIY stove installs. I will do it again. Both permits were easy here, just a fill out a form, the recent was over $120.00 though. I called the inspector over to my house to OK my plan before I started any installation to see what he was looking for. Both passed with a signed paper after the inspection.


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## kjsnooks (Sep 20, 2007)

I just bought a wood stove out of the want ads and called my insurance co. and the county officials both of whom told me no permit was required and the insurance just repeals my 4% credit i get for not having one to begin with. I asked him if he needed to inspect it once its installed he said nope. I do live out in the country in idaho where wood stoves are common maybe thats why i dont need one? The tow 50 miles south of me wants a permit perhaps it has to do with population/pollution? Anyway I guess i got off lucky and will just have to use common sense on installation.


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## North of 60 (Sep 20, 2007)

Jacob Jacob Jacob If the stove you are installing ( the fisher ) from the other thread in your mobile. Than you just dont get it  Code is the bare minimum.
  Mostly based on the life of hard knocks. So they add to the code every year as people learn the does and donts. product tests and so on. Most codes have come into effects because of somones DEATH  :bug: Just because of were you are from  or no permit required doesnt mean you or your family is exempt from an 
unsafe situation. You came to this site for advice. Use it. Pick out a rated stove for your application an the support here will flow in.  Just like for your saftey as I am writing now.  CHEERS  :coolcheese:


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## kjsnooks (Sep 20, 2007)

not to change the topic, i was just bringing up the fact here there is not code the question was what have others done and i had to do nothing as far as permits go. As for the fisher please help me understand better whats not safe about it. the outside air feed is all i have heard mentioned besides wieght(wich is not an issue). any way sorry for the off topic post just chipping in my two cents about permits and code for me


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## keyman512us (Sep 20, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> As computer systems improve, we might say Big Brother is watching closer. In the past un-permitted work was hard to catch. Now some Twps want to inspect every house before it sells for certain things.....and some buyers ask more questions.
> 
> I think the real question here is all those in-between jobs.....installing a stove to replace another, installing an insert into an existing fireplace. Somewhere there is a line - for instance, as explained to me you don't need a permit for a window air conditioner...even though it can fall on someones head, the family car or overheat an electrical connection. You probably break the "law" when you replace a circuit breaker in your electrical panel...you surely do if you do it for a friend! So would the insurance company...if the fire started in the electrical box, find the 2 or 3 replaced breakers, and then try to not pay the claim?



Web....

Even here "In the Peoples' Republic of Massachusetts..." It's not that bad.

As an electrician for hire in this state I love hearing comments like yours above. 

Replacing a receptacle or light switch, a fixture or even a circuit breaker is considered maintenance and does not require a permit.

Legally, under CMR you could work side by side with your neighbor in his home doing electrical work and you aren't breaking the law. The way the laws are worded it only becomes a crime if you charge for your work ("No person shall perform electrical work for hire unless they are licensed by the commonwealth..." )

Now whether you accept the offer of a beer at the end of the job...I'll leave that for the lawyers to decide. 

The big 'debate' of whether or not a '(single family dwelling) Homeowner' can do their own electrical work??? According to the letter of state law...it neither condones nor does it deny...

Technically, if your locality says "No Homeowners can do their own wiring"??? Ask to see where it says you can't under state law...then watch the look on the inspectors face change.

This debate goes on and on. Between the board of electrical examiners and the state legislature you would think they would decide one way or the other and "come to a consesus"...but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Maybe someday they will pull their thumbs outta their a^ses and do their job... Until that point Rich Fredette & Crew will continue to aggravate and annoy all licensed electricians...but the board is good for that...we're used to it.

One of these days the 'Ambigously worded laws' is going to "bite the state on the back-side" and I'm sure just about every licensed electrician will say "See...Told you so!"


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## Gooserider (Sep 20, 2007)

Jacob said:
			
		

> not to change the topic, i was just bringing up the fact here there is not code the question was what have others done and i had to do nothing as far as permits go. As for the fisher please help me understand better whats not safe about it. the outside air feed is all i have heard mentioned besides wieght(wich is not an issue). any way sorry for the off topic post just chipping in my two cents about permits and code for me



Jacob this is flat WRONG...  Just because you don't have to pull a permit (lucky you!) and get inspected does NOT mean that the codes don't exist - they are still written down, they are still open to you, and they still come from the lessons learned when people died cause they did it the wrong way...  You may not have Elk and his pals looking over your shoulder, but you should still do your install like they were....  That means look at what the code requires and follow that.

Gooserider


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## webbie (Sep 20, 2007)

Long thread~!

My guess is that the lack of permits are a similar percentage among most home improvements. When I was a carpenter and installer back in NJ, the customer sometimes made it a prerequisite that I DO NOT get a permit. This was back in the old days, before there were standard codes even. We had some local inspectors (in NJ) who would make up their own! And often, the customer already did a bunch of work in the house and did not want the inspector coming to see the new screened in porch I was building around back, cause then he would see everything else!

These days things are more standardized and our store gets permits for 100% of jobs. Once you get into the flow of it, it is not too hard....although in NJ the dozen forms or so they give you can confuse a person.

Heck I just got a permit for putting new roof shingles on a shed/garage that is falling down! It took 10 minutes to fill out the form, and they approved it within 48 hours. Hopefully they will pass it when I am finished, since I have not called them for any "in between" inspections.

But as I said before access to inspectors is not always easy. My current town has the inspector in his office 2 hours per WEEK...so you better not be in a hurry. When I first moved up here, people could not contact him at all. My neighbor tried for weeks to find him - wanted to put in a pool. Someone finally directed him to a local bar where he did meet the guy.......(true story, but we are now two inspectors later- turned out the last one did not have the proper credentials!).......

So you can just imagine calling your local official in Idaho or deep WV........nowhere to be found!


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## Corie (Sep 20, 2007)

I just saw the title of this thread, guess I missed it somehow.  Its funny because I actually just went through the permitting thing here at work.  Everyone I asked said, no, in Virginia? shoot, you don't need a permit.  But I contacted the county anyway and of course, I needed a permit.  I filled out what I would consider to be one of the three most poorly designed forms in existence and sent it off, even though the permitting office is right down the road.  It should be back here within a few days, I'm hoping.  I really need that puppy.



I know its "against" the rules, but what would be the harm in getting started with the stove installation? The inspector only comes out at the end anyway, right? I just know its goign to be a mulit-day job so I'd like to get the ceiling hole and stuff cut and then get on the roof the next day.  I have like 23 inches maximum height to work with in the attic, so its going to be fun fun fun fun.


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## backpack09 (Sep 20, 2007)

Corie said:
			
		

> I know its "against" the rules, but what would be the harm in getting started with the stove installation? The inspector only comes out at the end anyway, right? I just know its goign to be a mulit-day job so I'd like to get the ceiling hole and stuff cut and then get on the roof the next day.  I have like 23 inches maximum height to work with in the attic, so its going to be fun fun fun fun.


Corie,
I agree with you on this one.  I also have to do some refraiming to install the chimney where we want it to run.  I am also waiting for my permit.  But as instructed by my building official, I only needed to state I was installing a wood burning stove, and nothing more.

So as I see it, as long as all of the framing work I do meets the regs, I can do that up while I am waiting for my permit to go through.  And when it does I will be all set to cut a hole in the roof and tie everything up in a weekend... hopefully.


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## eba1225 (Sep 20, 2007)

I too obtained a permit for my DIY stove installation into an already existing fireplace.  As with everybody else the forms were poorly designed, actually designed for a new home than for a retrofit, i.e. installation of a fireplace insert.  With the permit the inspector sent a couple pages of State Code that was in excess of the manufacturers requirements, thus that required me to do a little upfront work before I could start the installation.

As for the reason to get the permit....more related to insurance purposes than anything else.  Anticipating when I tell the insurance company about the insert they will ask 'Was it installed per code?'

Erik


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## elkimmeg (Sep 20, 2007)

I would think if 
I were that far out in the boonies and knew any response time was in hours,I would never risk my life or my family's 

 If anything I would want to go beyond code and make it super safe Outside air is required so that enough combustion air is drawn in

If there is a deficiency's it will draw from you exhaust and You run the risk of serious Carbon monoxide poisoning

I think enough well meaning members pointed this out to you.  already


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## BrotherBart (Sep 20, 2007)

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> I would think if
> I were that far out in the boonies and knew any response time was in hours,I would never risk my life or my family's
> 
> If anything I would want to go beyond code and make it super safe Outside air is required so that enough combustion air is drawn in
> ...



How true, how true. Fischer actually used to make one for manufactured homes that had a plate on the bottom you took off to connect to an outside air inlet under the home. And was tested for them.


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## jpl1nh (Sep 20, 2007)

So I pulled my Jotul combifire smoke dragon with a 7" pipe out (yikes!! the thimble was scary full!) popped in my used Woodstock Keystone with new 22 guage 7" pipe, one less elbow (after cleaning the thimble and chimney..)  Did not get a permit because it was such a straight forward swap, no real change to the masonary chimney with 6x10" tile liner.  Not really even sure if I need a permit for this but figure its such a substantial improvment in safety that it's irrelevant.


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## oregonrider (Sep 22, 2007)

I read thru this whole thread last night and it scared me! Never thought about the insurance. Called my agent today and told him I'd converted from electric to wood heat. He said he would make a note of it but it didn't matter on my policy. oregonrider.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 22, 2007)

oregonrider said:
			
		

> I read thru this whole thread last night and it scared me! Never thought about the insurance. Called my agent today and told him I'd converted from electric to wood heat. He said he would make a note of it but it didn't matter on my policy. oregonrider.



Go figure. Allstate has never cared that we heat with wood but after 32 years with them they doubled our homeowners insurance rate last year because we didn't have a credit history. We don't use credit. Just wood.

I wonder what the new insurance company is going to think about burning wood?


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## Hogwildz (Sep 22, 2007)

Mrs-GVA said:
			
		

> Web you are correct that there are mortgage companies that need there interests protected.  They are.  First of all most consumers do not realize the banks have a special insurance coverage in this type of situation that will protect their interest.  You are correct in the homeowners insurance to a point.  Lets say my house burned down because I put in a wood burning stove and didn't pull the permit.  My insurance company would probably pay the loan off to the bank but none of that money would be to go to the homeowner for rebuilding.  That will also happen if someone doesn't carry the proper amount of insurance.  If you state your home is only worth $100k and it is actually worth $500k, if you don't maintain 80-90% of the property worth (the house not the land), they won't pay your claim, but if the lien holder is listed as an insurable interest, their interest will be repaid.  But that's it.   I don't think, that relieves the homeowner of the debt, but I would need to check that out.    I have had a lot of education with property insurance, but I've concentrated on Liability and Workers' Compensation.  Permits also come into play with Homeowners Liability.



I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. I work in Ins. also. As a automotive physical damage appraiser/adjuster I see this type od situation happen often in heavy truck claims. I am independent and work for about 30 dif Ins. Co's. They all have what is called an 80% coinsurance clause. Meaning, that if the vehicle is not Insured at least 80% of the actual cash value, the Insurance co. charges back a percentage of the difference that the Insured is underinsured.
They pay the claim, but only the percentage that the Insured is insured for. Now given that in the auto physical damage claims, there is usually a salvage value. Most of the Insurance companies will give back a percentage of that salvage, even sometimes all the salvage value towards the Insured's underinsured coinsurance portion.
Now in the case of a repairable, the Ins. co. will pay for the repairs, but might also charge that underinsured percentage back to you. So they would pay for the repairs up to the percentage you are Insured for, but then figure in the percentage difference and stick you with it.
As with any Ins., the companies can differ in their practices & policies as varied as Insurance policies themselves can vary. And the other side of the coin is this, if you over insure your vehicle, you do not get what you are paying for as a stated limit amount. You get the Actual Cash Value amount. Meaning, if you say hmmm, my car is worth $15,000.00 but I am going to insure it for $20,000.00, and if it totals, I get $20,000.00. Wrong, an ACV will be performed. And the amount the ACV vehicles average together to, is what your getting paid. Many homeowners Ins. Co's use that same 80% clause. I expect Mrs. GVA will know the home owner Ins. better than I.
I do realize there is a coinsurance clause in almost every Ins. Policy.
Also in the automotive physical damage claims, the Insured is not supposed to make a profit on repairs. Although we all know that this is not always the case.
I don't pretend to know alot about policies, I am just a lowly physical damage appraiser/adjuster.


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## jjbaer (Sep 24, 2007)

karl said:
			
		

> Since this thread seems to have began to turn into insurance bashing I'm going to chime in again.  Everybody complains about insurance fraud, but what about the fraud the insurance companies commit.  I know a guy who's father died and the family went to collect the $100,000 insurance policy that the guy had been paying on his whole life.  The insurance company said we will give you $75,000.  You can sue us if you want but the lawyers will take 1/3 of it and you will only get $66,000.  Also, what about how they over inflate replacement cost.  The replacement cost they said I had to have works out to almost $187.00 a square foot.  This was ten years ago.  I bet if I got a new policy, they would up it to well over $200.00 a square foot.  My house is nice, but I'm sure it's no nicer than what everybody else here has.  You could buy my house for less than half of what they forced me to insure it for.



I say "make my day"...you sue in Federal Distric Court for $50 Million alledging fraud.  All you have to do is to show the judge or the jury two items and you win, no questions asked: 1) the policy and 2) the death certificate.  And, you not only get all your money, your lawyer fees are paid out of the winnings for fraud.  In fact, you can personally (without a lawyer) file against them and they'll cave and never let it go to court.  Why:  because NO lawyer, anywhere, could win that one for the insurance company


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