# Hanging new door in concete block wall



## dave11 (Nov 8, 2009)

My house was built in 1951, and the door leading to the garage from the basement is cut through the concrete blocks. The original carpenter attached jambs to the ends of the block walls, then hung a door between them. It's time to replace the door, and I'm a little unsure of the proper way to approach replacing with a pre-hung door.

The old door is still in place, but as best I can tell, the opening in the block walls is 39 1/4 inches. The typical 36 inch door needs a 38 inch opening, leaving 1 1/4 inches for rough framing. This would leave room for 5/8 framing on either side, though this sounds too thin to me. But to skip the rough frame would require nailing through 5/8 of shim on each side, which sounds wrong as well.

Am I missing something? Or is it not correct to replace this door with pre-hung?

Thanks.


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## DWW68 (Nov 9, 2009)

I think that you are right on with the 5/8 on each side. This will allow you room to plumb up the frame. Insulate the gaps and cover with trim. you may have to rip the trim on the inside of the door to make it fit.


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## semipro (Nov 9, 2009)

I believe code requires (plus its a good idea) that any wood in contact with masonry be treated.  

If your masonry opening has plumb walls you may be able to go with framing boards thicker than 5/8".  The door maker's rough opening specs usually leave quite a bit of tolerance for a non-square opening.


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## dave11 (Nov 9, 2009)

DWW68 said:
			
		

> I think that you are right on with the 5/8 on each side. This will allow you room to plumb up the frame. Insulate the gaps and cover with trim. you may have to rip the trim on the inside of the door to make it fit.



It seems like the most practical thing to do, but it seems like 5/8 boards would be on the fragile side. Prone to split, if say the door were slammed hard enough a few times too many. Most door jambs are attached to 2x4 studs. Mine would be attached to 5/8 inch boards.


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## dave11 (Nov 9, 2009)

Semipro said:
			
		

> I believe code requires (plus its a good idea) that any wood in contact with masonry be treated.
> 
> If your masonry opening has plumb walls you may be able to go with framing boards thicker than 5/8".  The door maker's rough opening specs usually leave quite a bit of tolerance for a non-square opening.



I guess 3/4 inch boards would be better than 5/8, but not by much, and that's probably about as big as it will go. I suppose I'll end up securing the jambs on the pre-hung door with concrete anchors into the underlying block, and just consider the rough jamb as a sort of spacer.


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## kabbott (Nov 9, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
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I would go with that option, Tapcon screws may be easier than anchors. Azek(spelling?) or other vinyl trim boards make great "no split" spacers and also 
great for trimming it out although a bit pricey. I used some vinyl brickmold and other moldings on my house and I love the stuff, easy to work with and no painting.


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## jebatty (Nov 9, 2009)

You do have the option of scrapping the pre-hung part of the door, make 1-1/2"+/- jambs, and hang your door yourself. Might be able to use/modify the bottom piece to fit the new jambs.


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## dave11 (Nov 9, 2009)

jebatty said:
			
		

> You do have the option of scrapping the pre-hung part of the door, make 1-1/2"+/- jambs, and hang your door yourself. Might be able to use/modify the bottom piece to fit the new jambs.



Heh. Yes, I thought about that, but the only doors I've replaced have been pre-hung. Isn't hanging a new door the old-fashioned way pretty tricky?


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## jebatty (Nov 9, 2009)

Not very tricky at all, just a little care and some time. Need a flat surface to work on. Measure total width and height of rough opening. Size jambs thickness (if you have a surface planer, this becomes very easy) accordingly for door. Use pre-hung door spacing between door and jambs as a guide for spacing new jambs and door. Use 2 x __ for your new jambs. Both side jambs rabbet tops and rabbet top jamb to fit, after measuring. Lay hinge jamb next to door, measure hinge locations, fit door to hinge jamb. Ditto non-hinge side. Measure, rabbet and fit top jamb. Use spacers (be sure to size top and bottom jambs to allow for spacers) to maintain gaps between door and jambs. Nail/screw as desired. Bottom jamb can be butted to side jambs. Reuse pre-hung threshold and weather stripping, if possible. I use 1' x 1' right angle triangles made out of scrap plywood to screw to jamb at corners to hold new "pre-hung" door in perfect alignment while installing ... but if after fastening all jambs together with door in place it isn't square with door, use a ratcheting tie down diagonally across the door in the proper direction to pull door into alignment. Then use the 1' x 1' triangles to fix alignment. Set in place, shim as needed, and fasten to concrete opening with appropriate fasteners. Work on a flat surface is important, as door frame also needs to be "flat" and not out of plane.

I just made a door, 4' wide, from an old garage door section, using 1 x 8 jambs, as described above. I was about 3/8" off on jamb squareness, used the ratcheting tie down, pulled into place, and then the trianlges. This door is going into a new pole bldg now under construction.


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## johnn (Nov 9, 2009)

Yes, hanging "the old fashioned way" is trickey, particularily if you are using a core, or slab door, requiring some tools you may or may not have. Typically the side and bottom are plained by a few degrees to allow the door to swing open without binding in the jamb and to achieve a good seal at the threshold. Buying a prehung and the option of removing the frame would be best, for you still have hinges to locate and router along with installation of the lock system.

  thoughts:
 Aren`t most doors secured with shims, and fastened through that point? I`m thinking the key to a wider gap than whats preferred, would be to make sure you have solid shim points and possibly more attachment points.This may help to offset the slamming effect>
 Does the door require that it be centered? Shifting it to the hinge side would allow for a thicker rough opening board on the lock side and allow for more travel depth of the deadbolt.


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## dave11 (Nov 9, 2009)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Not very tricky at all, just a little care and some time. Need a flat surface to work on. Measure total width and height of rough opening. Size jambs thickness (if you have a surface planer, this becomes very easy) accordingly for door. Use pre-hung door spacing between door and jambs as a guide for spacing new jambs and door. Use 2 x __ for your new jambs. Both side jambs rabbet tops and rabbet top jamb to fit, after measuring. Lay hinge jamb next to door, measure hinge locations, fit door to hinge jamb. Ditto non-hinge side. Measure, rabbet and fit top jamb. Use spacers (be sure to size top and bottom jambs to allow for spacers) to maintain gaps between door and jambs. Nail/screw as desired. Bottom jamb can be butted to side jambs. Reuse pre-hung threshold and weather stripping, if possible. I use 1' x 1' right angle triangles made out of scrap plywood to screw to jamb at corners to hold new "pre-hung" door in perfect alignment while installing ... but if after fastening all jambs together with door in place it isn't square with door, use a ratcheting tie down diagonally across the door in the proper direction to pull door into alignment. Then use the 1' x 1' triangles to fix alignment. Set in place, shim as needed, and fasten to concrete opening with appropriate fasteners. Work on a flat surface is important, as door frame also needs to be "flat" and not out of plane.
> 
> I just made a door, 4' wide, from an old garage door section, using 1 x 8 jambs, as described above. I was about 3/8" off on jamb squareness, used the ratcheting tie down, pulled into place, and then the trianlges. This door is going into a new pole bldg now under construction.



That's a good description, and somewhat different than I've seen before. But still seems a lot more work, and potential pitfalls, than pre-hung. Plus, my recollection from my grandfather, who was both a carpenter and machinist, is that the real problem with hanging doors is getting them to stay where you want them, that is, either partly opened or closed, etc. This door, built by a carpenter in 1951, still stays totally in place, wherever I put it. Doors that swing open or closed on their own are very annoying.


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## dave11 (Nov 9, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> Yes, hanging "the old fashioned way" is trickey, particularily if you are using a core, or slab door, requiring some tools you may or may not have. Typically the side and bottom are plained by a few degrees to allow the door to swing open without binding in the jamb and to achieve a good seal at the threshold. Buying a prehung and the option of removing the frame would be best, for you still have hinges to locate and router along with installation of the lock system.
> 
> thoughts:
> Aren`t most doors secured with shims, and fastened through that point? I`m thinking the key to a wider gap than whats preferred, would be to make sure you have solid shim points and possibly more attachment points.This may help to offset the slamming effect>
> Does the door require that it be centered? Shifting it to the hinge side would allow for a thicker rough opening board on the lock side and allow for more travel depth of the deadbolt.



I think the door could be shifted to the hinge side as you suggested. If I bought a pre-hung door and attached the hinge side of the jamb directly to the concrete block, I might have room for a 2 by X for the latch side rough jamb. It would be stronger of course than a 3/4 inch board, but still have some "give" to it, so any slamming would not be transferred directly to the concrete block (which is meant to be compressed, not struck).


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## dave11 (Nov 9, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> jebatty said:
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Actually, now that I think about it, I believe Code requires all garage doors leading into a home be self-closing. The current door of course is not. I guess a self-closing hinge negates the effort of making a door balance on its hinges.


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## jebatty (Nov 9, 2009)

> But still seems a lot more work, and potential pitfalls, than pre-hung. Plus, my recollection from my grandfather, who was both a carpenter and machinist, is that the real problem with hanging doors is getting them to stay where you want them, that is, either partly opened or closed, etc.



I think it's a given that pre-hung is easier, less work and less pitfalls. But sometimes, pre-hung just doesn't work, and making a door is required to get what you really want. As to partly open or closed, has to do with the alignment in the plane of the wall. Tipped a bit out of plane in one direction and the door will swing open, and vice versa.

I've made several custom doors in our house. One was made out of solid birch, redwood inlay, and with a large, etched glass pane in the center for dramatic effect. Would have cost a fortune to have it custom made. My cost was the cost of the glass plus hinges. Birch from one of our trees, which I felled, sawed into lumber, dried, planed, etc. Redwood salvaged from some old siding on our house. 

Making and hanging a door moves a person into another dimension of woodworking.


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## Later (Nov 9, 2009)

36" pre-hung?


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## Danno77 (Nov 10, 2009)

what's wrong with the door you have now? it's only 58 years old, I'd be in pretty crappy shape around here if'n i had to replace doors every 50 years or so!


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## emurphy@eclumber.com (Nov 11, 2009)

Your on the right track with shifting the door to one side of the opening or the other. You do need to add a barrier between the pine door jamb and the masonry wall. A layer of ice and water or atleast felt paper will do the trick. the more the better. You want to keep the moisture, which is inherent in masonry, away from the untreated wood. 

If it were me. I would focus my attention on the hinge side of the door. It's definetly the most critical jamb. Get that plumb, the door will swing the way you want. The rest of the jamb can be tweaked to fit your application.

What is this door used for? Would a 32" door work? Or, most lumber yards could have the door ripped a little for you to give the clearance required to do an ideal install. (if this is a wood door). I guess it depends on just how critical you want to be with the final product.


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## TreePapa (Nov 11, 2009)

If you are replacing a door between living space and garage, I'm purty sure the codes call for a fire-rated door (20 minute? 30? not sure) as well as self-closing.

Peace,
- Sequoia


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## emurphy@eclumber.com (Nov 11, 2009)

Good Point TreePapa. You'll want to check with your local code officials, but in New England a door between a garage and living space would need to be a 90 min door in a steel frame. If if it's not going to be inspected than it probably won't matter until you go to sell the house.


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## dave11 (Nov 12, 2009)

The door leads from the garage to the workshop. Yes, Code says fire-rated and self-closing. The current door is heavy, but solid wood, with perhaps an R=2, but worse, it has three large single pane windows in it. The garage is large and has block walls, so it gets cold in the winter, and so the door leading into the workshop gets very cold, especially with those windows.


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## emurphy@eclumber.com (Nov 12, 2009)

If your ok with a flush wood door, you could probably get something like a birch door. These are available as a fire door (mineral filled). They ripped pretty easily by the wholesaler then pre-hung. It's probably similar to what you have already, minus the glass.  Were you hoping to put glass in it again?


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