# Could this work?



## Jack Straw (Jun 3, 2010)

I live in a rural county in upstate NY which has many dairy farmers who are struggling to survive with such low milk prices currently.
Is it possible to genarate electricity by burning corn, if not, could puplic buidlings be retro-fitted with corn boilers? Our farmers could be paid for their corn and survive and we could have a renewable fuel source. Let me have it, what's wrong with that idea? 
We have quite a few farms that have sold their cows and just sell hay, so there should be quite a bit of land available to grow the corn.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 3, 2010)

How rural can you be, you have your own college!   :lol:     

It can certainly be done, but how much power do you want to make?  It would take an awful lot of corn to power a plant.  I'm not sure Scary County could make enough to make it worthwhile.  Maybe Albany county could make enough power if it burned all that trash they have sitting next to the thruway though...

Many of them aren't selling all of their hay either.   

Matt


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## Jack Straw (Jun 3, 2010)

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> How rural can you be, you have your own college!   :lol:
> 
> It can certainly be done, but how much power do you want to make?  It would take an awful lot of corn to power a plant.  I'm not sure Scary County could make enough to make it worthwhile.  Maybe Albany county could make enough power if it burned all that trash they have sitting next to the thruway though...
> 
> ...



Did you live in Albany when they had the Answers Plant? They burned that garbage to generate electricity. I don't know why they stopped. I do remember once and awhile a propane tank would get into the system and blow up.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 3, 2010)

In NY I've only lived in Schenectady.  Except for a few summers in college when I lived on the Warren/Essex line.  I had not heard of the Answers plant.  It must have been in action before I moved back into the state around 2005.  It certainly sounds like a good idea though.  I was just reading a Conservationist magazine from 1970 (found in the attic of the family cabin) and it was talking about trash issues then.  40 years later it can't be much better.  

Matt


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## dougstove (Jun 3, 2010)

Direct biomass burning can certainly work, although Miscanthus or switch grass would generally be better choices than corn, since corn is a heavy feeder and taking corn biomass off the soil depletes the soil.
The main tradeoffs are production per hectare (or acre), vs. fuel transport costs to the power plant, vs. capital cost of the power plant, vs. efficiency of the power plant.
If the power plants are small and placed close to each field(s) they are generally expensive per kilowatt.  If the powerplants are large and centralized, the fuel cost to transport the biomass can outrun the energy value of the biomass.

On a total lifecycle basis, unfortunately, quite a bit of North American biofuel production ends up burning more fossil fuel than it offsets;  it is 'laundering' fossil net inputs into biofuel.
Corn ethanol in the USA is probably a case in point.
In Brazil it is a different story, with year round growth and the possibility of sugarcane or other highly productive crops.


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## Flatbedford (Jun 3, 2010)

We have a "garbage to energy" plan near me on the Hudson River. It has been making Westchester County garbage into electricity, and keeping our school taxes lower for 20 years or so now.


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## benjamin (Jun 3, 2010)

dougstove said:
			
		

> In Brazil it is a different story, with year round growth and the possibility of sugarcane or other highly productive crops.



It's much greener to have virtual slave labor instead of machines burning diesel.  Apparently Tipper didn't go for that idea though.

La Crosse WI has had a garbage fired generating plant for decades that costs more than landfilling, and dioxins as a bonus.  

Biomass is huge in Europe and when we pay what they pay it will be huge here also.  There are huge waste streams that can utilized when it becomes cost effective, and we're willing to make the investment.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 3, 2010)

Are the space savings from using the fill to fire the plant allowing you to keep the landfill open long after it would normally have been closed?


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## Jack Straw (Jun 3, 2010)

I believe that the Answers Plant that burned garbage in Albany was old technology and burned quite dirty. I know they had alot of problems with it and it's been closed for quite a while. I think they started using it back in 80's.


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## dougstove (Jun 4, 2010)

The Brazilian advantage on biofuels (and bioethanol) is largely based on climate, not labour costs.
If we wanted to be greener, we should drop tariffs and subsidies that distort markets.

Biofuel as a whole could be increased, but globally, the production capacity is limited.  I can see a realistic long term role for biojetfuel, but the conversion factors and annual production are not favourable for a long term wholesale replacement of current fossil fuel use.

Interestingly, at the garbage-fired municipal heating plant next to my former home in Sweden, they limited paper recycling, since they needed the paper content in the garbage to keep the fires hot enough to cope with lower grade materials.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jun 4, 2010)

I moved out of the area in '86.  At 10 years old it wouldn't have been something I was interested in.  I didn't come back until about 6 years ago.  

I bet they could do it fairly clean now. 

Matt


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## Later (Jun 4, 2010)

The Answers plant was built to supply steam to the state buildings so it was built in the middle of the city, adjacent to the Arbor Hill neighborhood.


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## benjamin (Jun 4, 2010)

EatenByLimestone said:
			
		

> Are the space savings from using the fill to fire the plant allowing you to keep the landfill open long after it would normally have been closed?



Yes.  It would have had to expand much sooner without incineration.

I believe I read that La Crosse is segregating at least the ash from the incinerator for possible recovery from the landfill at some point.  Old landfills are no small concern, they moved an entire landfill from Sparta about 50 miles to Wisconsin Rapids several years ago, how'd you like that job? La Crosse also does not recycle paper or plastic.


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