# Help with wind



## Ckelly14 (Feb 21, 2020)

We’ve been in this home for 4 years and have rarely had a functioning fireplace.  To make a long story short, many of the issues have been repaired but we still have an issue with the fireplace main burner and pilot going out.  I do think happens more regularly during windy conditions.  I’m attaching a picture of the vent configuration. 

Anything  you see here that can be improved?

thanks in advance.  The pic inserted sideways for some reason.  I am looking at it from below.


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## webfish (Feb 21, 2020)

I flipped pic .


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 21, 2020)

webfish said:


> I flipped pic .



Thanks!  Will edit my post.


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 22, 2020)

Well, fireplace went out again, no wind today, so that eliminated the wind issue.  

Watching the fireplace I saw the flames get smaller and smaller, turn more blue, then a pop and everything went out, including the pilot.

Any thoughts?


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## DAKSY (Feb 26, 2020)

Can you tell us the manufacturer & model of your fireplace?


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 26, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> Can you tell us the manufacturer & model of your fireplace?


Unfortunately, when we purchased the house there was no documentation left here.  Not sure if there is a place to find it on the fireplace itself, and with so many of the parts replaced, I'm not sure it would help.  I'll take a look when I get home.


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## DAKSY (Feb 26, 2020)

Post pics of the fireplace showing the log set up, the valve cavity & a close-up of the valve, if you can...


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## coaly (Feb 28, 2020)

Did it lose the yellow flames first, and get smaller all blue then hear a click sound as it went out? The description of so many parts replaced and getting smaller staying blue sounds like a pressure loss. Are there other appliances on the same supply system? Is Sc South Carolina to rule out extreme low temperatures?


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)

Yes, this is exactly what I saw this time.  I would not consider the cause extreme cold, I doubt it was below freezing that morning (but darn cold for here!)


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)




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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)




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## DAKSY (Feb 28, 2020)

Hmm. You may have a blockage in the intake 
or exhaust or a disconnected section of venting.
You are burning LP,  correct?
Can you post what is on the tag to the right of your gas valve?
That 910 - that I can see, may be a reference to a Regency part number...


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)

Here is a pic of the tag.  It is a natural gas line.  We have gas laterns in front of the house, gas stove and a gas furnace for our main living area.


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## coaly (Feb 28, 2020)

Ckelly14 said:


> Yes, this is exactly what I saw this time.  I would not consider the cause extreme cold, I doubt it was below freezing that morning (but darn cold for here!)


OK, I was ruling out low pressure due to a propane tank or cylinder requiring a certain amount of heat or volume of fuel to maintain system pressure. Could the gas furnace have lit when or before the flames diminished? Natural gas uses much lower pressure than LP, therefore requires much larger diameter supply lines. If this was added on a system using too small of a supply line, you could have low pressure when other appliances are in use. Did it ever work correctly at all times since you have owned the home? I have more experience with LP, but it still sounds like a pressure drop to me. I had a few restaurant accounts using natural and still service one after retirement. If that were the case, the gas valve is shutting down exactly as it is supposed to do. I'd put a manometer on it and turn other appliances on and watch for pressure drop to rule out a supply issue before working on the appliance. Of course if we were there and saw a 50 foot long, 1/2 inch black iron pipe supplying the appliance it would be pretty obvious. That's the way it's acting.


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)

coaly said:


> OK, I was ruling out low pressure due to a propane tank or cylinder requiring a certain amount of heat or volume of fuel to maintain system pressure. Could the gas furnace have lit when or before the flames diminished? Natural gas uses much lower pressure than LP, therefore requires much larger diameter supply lines. If this was added on a system using too small of a supply line, you could have low pressure when other appliances are in use. Did it ever work correctly at all times since you have owned the home? I have more experience with LP, but it still sounds like a pressure drop to me. I had a few restaurant accounts using natural and still service one after retirement. If that were the case, the gas valve is shutting down exactly as it is supposed to do. I'd put a manometer on it and turn other appliances on and watch for pressure drop to rule out a supply issue before working on the appliance. Of course if we were there and saw a 50 foot long, 1/2 inch black iron pipe supplying the appliance it would be pretty obvious. That's the way it's acting.



Thanks  for the info.  Just turned it on again and saw a smallish blue flame that lasted 3 minutes than went out.

On the positive side, I did find info on the fireplace.


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)

pic of flame


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)

I would also say this seems to be a different problem than previous.  I don’t recall a small flame in the past.


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## coaly (Feb 28, 2020)

Was the flame that lasted 3 minutes with the main burner on, or pilot only?
If you light just the pilot , and leave it in pilot position does it stay lit?


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## Ckelly14 (Feb 28, 2020)

coaly said:


> Was the flame that lasted 3 minutes with the main burner on, or pilot only?
> If you light just the pilot , and leave it in pilot position does it stay lit?



It only goes out with the main burner.  The pilot by itself will stay lit indefinitely


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## coaly (Feb 28, 2020)

Tells me the pilot is clean and generating the correct amount of current to hold the safety on, and  safety portion of valve is ok. If the problem is due to low pressure at times, the pilot may become weaker, but not noticeably since there is next to no load on the supply to the appliance. A decrease in pressure with burner on drops pressure in the line, decreasing main burner flame as well as pilot flame until it is no longer generating enough to keep safety on and safety valve shuts down. That's my guess. I'd still put a manometer on it and watch pressure with main burner on and load system with other appliances and watch for pressure drop.  I don't know if this gas valve has a regulator built in, (other than the flame adjustment) but they rarely give problems. I'd verify the source is good first.


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## DAKSY (Feb 28, 2020)

Do you have a multimeter? Set it to millivolts (mV)  & read the thermopile (TP) with the only the pilot burning.
Take your reading on the screws holding the Red & White wires to the valve terminal block.
They are at the lower right of the valve shown in your pic.
Most units will generate 500 +/- 25 mV.
Turn the burner on & watch the meter.  The thermopile should read
about 220+/- 25mV.
Tells us what numbers you get...


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## Ckelly14 (Mar 3, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> Do you have a multimeter? Set it to millivolts (mV)  & read the thermopile (TP) with the only the pilot burning.
> Take your reading on the screws holding the Red & White wires to the valve terminal block.
> They are at the lower right of the valve shown in your pic.
> Most units will generate 500 +/- 25 mV.
> ...



I have a technician coming out on friday so I will check the above.  Don't have a voltmeter or manometer but will have them check.

Checked my records and the whole gas valve assembly as well as the pilot assembly was replaced Fall 2018.  I recall the fireplace working last winter (as little as it was used) and the pilot staying lit throughout the summer 2019.  Started noticing the issue in December when we started using the logs again.

So the thermopile creates current when warm, correct?  So are you saying that there should be a drop in the voltage with the burner on?


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## DAKSY (Mar 3, 2020)

So the thermopile creates current when warm, correct?

It has to be MORE than warm. It should have at least the top 3/8" engulfed in the pilot flame,
& the mV generation should hold steady.

So are you saying that there should be a drop in the voltage with the burner on?

Yes. As much as 300mV., possibly more...

Looking at the pic of your flames, they appear to be "Ghosting." Does the unit act this way when the glass front is removed?
If not, there is probably a venting issue...


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## Ckelly14 (Mar 3, 2020)

Thank you.  I'll open the front and see if that helps and post back. 

So, what is the minimum output on the thermocouple that would still allow it to work?

Can you explain ghosting?


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## DAKSY (Mar 3, 2020)

Generally, the required mV for burner operation is above 150mV.


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## Ckelly14 (Mar 3, 2020)

DAKSY said:


> Generally, the required mV for burner operation is above 150mV.



Thanks so much!  I'm going to grab a voltmeter today as I do need it from time to time.  

Regarding the manomter, would this work?

Amazon manomter

Where would I be measuring and what would I look for?


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## DAKSY (Mar 3, 2020)

Can you explain ghosting? 

Ghosting is a phenomenon caused by a lack of combustion air. 
The flames will actually "lift" off the burner & appear to be transparent.


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## DAKSY (Mar 3, 2020)

That manometer should work quite well.
The attachment ports for measuring fuel input TO the valve,
& fuel output TO the burner are located below the "On-Pilot-Off" 
knob, & are labelled.
You will need to use a small slotted screwdriver to back out the brass screw
in the ports, before attaching the manometer tube.
Once you have taken a reading, do not forget to re-tighten them.


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## solodolo225 (Mar 12, 2020)

Ckelly14 said:


> We’ve been in this home for 4 years and have rarely had a functioning fireplace.  To make a long story short, many of the issues have been repaired but we still have an issue with the fireplace main burner and pilot going out.  I do think happens more regularly during windy conditions.  I’m attaching a picture of the vent configuration.
> 
> Anything  you see here that can be improved?
> 
> thanks in advance.  The pic inserted sideways for some reason.  I am looking at it from below.



Hi, did you ever get your problem fixed? Judging by your picture your exhaust cap is being restricted by all of the wood trim around it. It needs to be removed. The cap should stick out about an inch from any trim


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## Ckelly14 (Mar 12, 2020)

Thanks for asking.  I have the technician coming out tomorrow to take a look.  I used it last week and it stayed on the entire hour or so that I had it on, so not sure what to think...


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## Ckelly14 (Mar 13, 2020)

Well, looks like I don't have enough gas pressure.  They tell me pressure for this unit should be between 6.5 and 9.  (Lbs?) It starts with 6.7, drops to 6.2 when the burner is on, and drops to 5.5 when the gas furnace is on.  The fireplace guy says that most houses have a separate line for the furnace.   Need to contact the plumber and see if they can increase the pressure outside.

Thanks for all your help guys.   Not sure why it took 3 years for someone to measure the pressure, but it wouldn't have happened this time unless I told him to.  Frustrating as hell but what can you do...


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