# Black pipe or copper what's your choice and why?



## goosegunner (Oct 12, 2010)

When installing your near boiler piping to pressurized storage what is your choice Black pipe or copper?

Any why?

I plan on using 1-1/2" for the boiler to storage and 1-1/4" from storage to logstor. 

Wow those big valves and fittings are expensive!

gg


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## Bad Wolf (Oct 12, 2010)

I did black iron, but if I had it to do over I'd use copper.  I always had trouble with the last turn. It didn't feel tight enough but I couldn't get one more revolution out of it.   Plus I had trouble getting the exact length. With copper you have a little bit of slide so you don't have to be as precise.  With the copper as long as you brighten it up properly, use flux and apply a lot of heat you can get a good joint.  I have a couple of conections that drip a little if the system gets cold.  They go away when it heats up again.  I thought I was saving money but in the long rum it wasn't that much and would have been a lot eaiser with copper.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Hunderliggur (Oct 12, 2010)

Copper worked for me - easier to install with the tools avaiable.  Unions can help with both copper and black pipe to get everything to fit correctly.


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## jebatty (Oct 12, 2010)

Copper ditto for the reasons stated. You can find really good prices on fittings and valves on ebay, if you are patient. My strategy was to plan out the system months in advance, monitor the auction site for what I needed and buy when the price was right. I had very little to buy retail at the time of the install.


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## btuser (Oct 12, 2010)

Another vote for copper, from a guy who did his with black pipe.   A lot easier to fix, and a lot faster to put together.  If I was to do it over again I would've used copper to the tees and extended all 6 of my circulator zones to the new location using pex.   I would've been done probably 10 hours earlier and in the end it wouldlve been a more compact/cleaner job.


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## woodsmaster (Oct 12, 2010)

Good post. I"ve also been trying to decide what to use.  I think I'll go with copper since I dont have a threader to use. Don't want to run to lowes each time I need to thread something. By the time I buy a good threader or rent one I'm sure copper would be cheaper. I know not to use the thin copper, so middle or thick? can't think of the grades right now.


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## goosegunner (Oct 12, 2010)

Ok I will plan on using copper. My dad is a just retired plumber. I was just looking at a 6" pice of copper at his house. I said Is that stuff hard to sweat?

He said, "Not for me."

He has taught me many tips for good sweat joints, but he has close to 50 years experience. 

gg


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## Piker (Oct 12, 2010)

Copper. Labor is cheaper for sure.  Easier to keep things straight and plumb.  If you ever need to splice in somewhere... just cut and solder.

I have seen some very nice black iron jobs posted here on the forum however...  very nice.

cheers


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## Dune (Oct 13, 2010)

goosegunner said:
			
		

> Ok I will plan on using copper. My dad is a just retired plumber. I was just looking at a 6" pice of copper at his house. I said Is that stuff hard to sweat?
> 
> He said, "Not for me."
> 
> ...



Ask your father what should come off the boiler. I bet he says iron, at least the first few feet.


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## heaterman (Oct 13, 2010)

Personally........I love the smell of thread cutting oil in the morning.    Nearly all of our installs go in using black pipe, either threaded or Victaulic groove fitting if we want to get fancy. Having a stand type pipe threader makes that an easy decision for us but few people other than contractors would have something that can thread up to 4" steel at their disposal.

So, that being said, for the average DIY'er copper is the way to go becasue it's a little more forgiving with measurements than steel and because fabrication tools consist of a good torch and a cutter.  
A couple things need to be said though in regards to those tools. First being that if you are working with anything larger than 1-1/4" tube, do yourself a favor and skip the hardware store/HomeDepot torch. Just go to a plumbing supply house, a Johnstone supply or Grainger and spend about $80 for a decent torch. You will never regret it. The flame pattern stinks on all the Bern-zo-matic type torches you'll find in a home center. A good torch head to get might be the STK-9 from TurboTorch or a RP3T2 from Uniweld. They both burn propane or MAPP gas and have a swivel head that allows you to get around behind the fitting to ensure uniform heating (which BTW is the most important facet of soldering) 

Soldering is easy if you observe a few basic rules and use good products. Most important is that the fitting socket and the tube MUST be clean, which means sanding or brushing until they are uniformly bright all the way around. Next thing is to de-burr the tube to eliminate the ridge formed on the I.D. when you cut it. A sharp cutter wheel really helps! Most decent tubing cutters will have a de-burring reamer built right in. Use it. It's there for a reason.
Ridgid and Lenox are probably the most commonly available brands of good grade tubing cutters. Stay away from the $13.95 General tube cutter at the local Lowes or HD unless you want to try and thread your copper. After about 10 cuts they'll start to spiral on you and fail to stay in the same track.
When it comes to solder and flux, we use Bridgit or Staybrite solder and Drew won't even grab the torch if we have no Bridgit flux. I avoid Oatey flux like the plague because of a really bad experience on a large bore job where the flux had failed to work uniformly. We found out later that they had a batch of flux that separated chemically when it was exposed to heat above 110*. ( think work truck sitting in the hot summer sun)  Even though the company acknowledged they had an issue with the product they would not help us out with literally dozens of failed joints and we wound up eating the cost of a whole lot of 2-1/2" through 4" sweat fittings and associated labor. That was a four figure lesson learned the hard way. Needless to say I haven't purchased anything with the Oatey brand on it since nor will I. Ever. 
Two areas where I see a lot of people unfamiliar with soldering get in trouble are over heating the fitting and not getting the fitting temperature as uniform as possible. The tendency is to just hold the torch on the fitting and leave it in one spot which creates a big difference in temp from one side to the other. Keep the torch moving and try to get the entire fitting to the temperature where solder will flow all the way around with just a touch. The tendency is to solder in "spots" rather than work the entire circumference of the fitting. When you get it to the right temperature you'll find that the solder will flow pretty much all the way around no matter where you dab it on.  Overheating the joint is just as bad as underheating it especially if you are using lead free product. (It has a higher melting point than the 50/50 solder that would flow at about 400*.) I've seen guys hold the torch on the fitting until the flame turns green, which means you are actually oxidizing the copper, and then wonder why the solder just runs out of the joint. 
Get the fitting up to temp in an area that you can see the solder starting to flow and then work the heat around until the whole joint is at the point. Then hit it with the solder. A rough rule of thumb is that you should use about the same amount/length of solder as the diameter of the pipe. If you are soldering 1" tube, bend over about an inch of solder and when you get to the end of that inch you have plenty of solder in that joint. Remember you are filling a slip fit joint with only a thousandth or two of gap, not the Grand Canyon.  Too much solder leaves nice little beads that roll around the  piping and end up under a check valve or in the impeller of a circ. 

Hmmmmmmm, that turned out to be a little longer than I set out to say but I hope it helps a few of you out.  

:edit:/PS  As a matter of general practice, you most definitely should come off you boiler with at least a few feet of steel before transitioning to copper for reasons of strength if nothing else.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 13, 2010)

I used black iron & would probably go with black iron again, I'm old school. There should be a bit less heat loss with iron given equal insulation. I use expensive anerobic pipe sealant & you could put the piping in hand tite with this stuff. I got used 1 1/2" sprinkler pipe that was just like new inside & out. Randy  BTW, they aren't exactly giving away large copper fittings either.


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## Hunderliggur (Oct 13, 2010)

Heaterman - thanks for the great soldering for idiots guide.  Not sure how I learned to solder copper correctly, but it follows what you said.  Even heat and just enough solder for the job.  (Doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes, just not too many).  For smaller (1 inch and less), I have found the Sharkbite fittings to be really useful sometimes.  I would not use them in a 190F circuit though.


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## goosegunner (Oct 13, 2010)

Hunderliggur said:
			
		

> Heaterman - thanks for the great soldering for idiots guide.  Not sure how I learned to solder copper correctly, but it follows what you said.  Even heat and just enough solder for the job.  (Doesn't mean that I don't make mistakes, just not too many).  For smaller (1 inch and less), I have found the Sharkbite fittings to be really useful sometimes.  I would not use them in a 190F circuit though.



I used one sharkbite T for my fill line and back flow preventer. Makes me nervous and I will be changing it out during the install. I have visions of a connection failure, just can't feel 100% about them.

gg


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## ewdudley (Oct 13, 2010)

Considering the time and money I can't say I'm real fond of either.  

I had a lot of 1.25" steel pipe and salvaged fittings to work with so I went with black iron.  Got a hand threader off craiglook and the one nice thing I can say about it is that it made it possible to do very consistent threads that would pull in predictably, which was critical for a lot of the system.

Had my neighbor over last weekend to do what little copper work that was needed to tie-in the existing system.  He remarked how happy he was that he happened to splurge on a nice torch once upon a time.  

Also he mentioned that washing off the flux when done is important to avoid things getting green and funky down the road, which you would think would go without saying.

--ewd


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## dogwood (Oct 13, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows,

What is anerobic pipe sealant? If this is a foolproof way to leakproof iron pipe joints I'd like to get some. Any brand names you could recommend or the one you use? Is it an easily obtainable product at a plumbing supply store or is there somewhere online you order it. Never heard of it before. 

Mike


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 13, 2010)

dogwood said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows,
> 
> What is anerobic pipe sealant/ If this is a foolproof way to leakproof iron pipe joints I'd like to get some. Any brand names you could recommend or the one you use? Is it an easily obtainable product at a plumbing supply store or is there somewhere online you order it. Never heard of it before.
> 
> Mike


 Mike; Anerobic sealers harden in the absense of air. I've put together a lot of air compressor piping through the years along with some boiler piping with no failures. I use Du Pont Perma-lok with teflon, Locktite has Seals Pipe for a brand, there are others. I had a boiler fitting that I ashamedly forgot to tighten many years ago, not a drop of a leak. I worked on the first rotary screw compressors to hit the market & they leaked hot oil like a sieve. We used anerobic gasket sealers to cure this, Randy PS, these are available at Graingers & all over. I would check Ebay, there are some great deals on there at times.


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## heaterman (Oct 13, 2010)

Leak Lock is another good brand. But I'm here to tell you it'll be fun if you ever have to take those fittings apart. Grab the 36" pipe wrench and a couple cheaters.........


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 13, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Leak Lock is another good brand. But I'm here to tell you it'll be fun if you ever have to take those fittings apart. Grab the 36" pipe wrench and a couple cheaters.........


 Sounds like you,ve been there & done that HM, more than once, lol. A propane torch can help too, Randy


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## heaterman (Oct 13, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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If you fool around with steel piping long enough you either learn a few things along the way or go crazy.   I have to say that we have the best luck with LocTite thread cord or hemp + a slick of pipe dope on the threads. They will let you take them back apart 10 years from now if need be. Those anaerobic sealants are )@%*@(#($$% to get apart later.


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## dogwood (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks Singed Eyebrows and Heaterman.

Mike


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## btuser (Oct 13, 2010)

I think the heat loss is about the same, but one thing to consider is copper has a larger diameter, so 1 1/4 copper is larger than 1 1/4 black pipe.  I don't know the numbers but it would pay to crunch the numbers so you don't over-size/over-pay.


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## heaterman (Oct 14, 2010)

Pipe size is confusing as all get out until you just accept the fact that there is nothing 1-1/4" about 1-1/4" steel pipe. Same with all the other sizes. Same with pex. Same with copper tubing. The called sizes are just generic terms. I see lot's of guys getting up tight because they find out 1" pex is not 1" anywhere, especially after some sales guy tries to tell them his 1" pex is really 1". The simple fact of the matter is that if his pex measures an actual 1" it's not standard SDR-9 pex and will therefore take special fittings and may not even be pex in the cross linked polyethylene sense of the word.

As an example, 1-1/4" steel is 1.38" inside diameter and measures over an inch and a half on the OD. 

 Here's a dandy little link that details what size each type actually measures.

http://www.gizmology.net/pipe.htm


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## Singed Eyebrows (Oct 14, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> I think the heat loss is about the same, but one thing to consider is copper has a larger diameter, so 1 1/4 copper is larger than 1 1/4 black pipe.  I don't know the numbers but it would pay to crunch the numbers so you don't over-size/over-pay.


 I am surprised. I've always thought heat transfer through copper was much greater than steel. Is there something I missed in my statement? I was talking equal diameters(or close) & I did mention equal insulation on each, just wondering, Randy


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## bpirger (Oct 14, 2010)

So while we are discussing copper, Type L or Type M or?


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## heaterman (Oct 14, 2010)

bpirger said:
			
		

> So while we are discussing copper, Type L or Type M or?



Traditionally M is for domestic water use and L is the boiler weight. L or K is sometimes specified for underground service.


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## b33p3r (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm just a DIY homeowner but I can offer 2 bits of advice when soldering that I haven't seen listed here. One that drove me nuts and the other I just recently learned. 
  Drove me nuts: When you cut a piece of copper, look into the cut end. I once had a defective piece of copper pipe that had a very small section of the wall that had a "channel" in it. So if you looked into the opening of the pipe, the wall was 1/16th of an inch thick(just a number, not actual) but there was one small section that was only 1/32 of an inch thick. The channel was too big to take the solder. Took me 3 tries before I figured out what was going wrong. And yes it was in an uncomfortable position to be soldering. Damn Murphy!
   The learned aspect was to wipe your solder joints with a dry rag not a wet rag. A wet rag can cool your solder joint to quick creating a "Cold" solder joint.  The experts here can confirm or deny.


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## Dune (Oct 14, 2010)

btuser said:
			
		

> I think the heat loss is about the same, but one thing to consider is copper has a larger diameter, so 1 1/4 copper is larger than 1 1/4 black pipe.  I don't know the numbers but it would pay to crunch the numbers so you don't over-size/over-pay.





The rate of thermal conduction is much higher for copper than steel. Copper has the highest rate of thermal conduction, followed closely by aluminum.


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## Dune (Oct 14, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

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In Mass, M can only be used for heat. Domestic must be L.


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## Dune (Oct 14, 2010)

b33p3r said:
			
		

> I'm just a DIY homeowner but I can offer 2 bits of advice when soldering that I haven't seen listed here. One that drove me nuts and the other I just recently learned.
> Drove me nuts: When you cut a piece of copper, look into the cut end. I once had a defective piece of copper pipe that had a very small section of the wall that had a "channel" in it. So if you looked into the opening of the pipe, the wall was 1/16th of an inch thick(just a number, not actual) but there was one small section that was only 1/32 of an inch thick. The channel was too big to take the solder. Took me 3 tries before I figured out what was going wrong. And yes it was in an uncomfortable position to be soldering. Damn Murphy!
> The learned aspect was to wipe your solder joints with a dry rag not a wet rag. A wet rag can cool your solder joint to quick creating a "Cold" solder joint.  The experts here can confirm or deny.



It has been written to wipe a joint with a wet rag. I use dry rags.


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## heaterman (Oct 14, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

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I fail to see the logic in that. One would think that the more severe use would warrant the heavier tube. Unless the powers that be in MA have deemed domestic plumbing to be more severe than 200* water connected to a pressure vessel.......just sayin


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## Dune (Oct 14, 2010)

heaterman said:
			
		

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Municipal water pressure vaies from about 35 p.s.i. to as high as 160 p.s.i. IIRC. boiler pressure is 30 p.s.i. max. Plus there is the theory that the oxygen is rmoved from the water after boiling (?). I don't make the rules, just have to follow them. I have one customer whose domestic was plumbed with M, before the code changed. Over the years, I have replaced most of his pipes.


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## kabbott (Oct 14, 2010)

Dune said:
			
		

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Round here M won't last very long on our well water, it will look like a soaker hose in 10 years. I use L for everything, except underground which must 
be type K.


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## Dune (Oct 14, 2010)

I use M for heat loops. It is cheaper and I've never had a call back. For near boiler piping I use black iron. For domestic it is L or Pex these days, now that it is legal here.


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## btuser (Oct 14, 2010)

> The rate of thermal conduction is much higher for copper than steel. Copper has the highest rate of thermal conduction, followed closely by aluminum.



Copper is very conductive but that doesn't translate into storage.  For that you need specific heat. Black pipe is a lot thicker than type m copper, and the fittings for black pipe are massive compared to copper.  Between the two pipes copper may heat up faster but  I'd bet the steel would hold more heat.


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## bpirger (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm a HVAC newbie and I just finished installing my Garn.  I installed about 20' of 1.25" copper to do this and some 1.5" and 2" black iron.  I found this thread very useful, and I wanted to share a few of my findings in case they help someone searching over the coming years.

First, NO LEAKS!  Incredible....and very very pleased.  

1.  Cleaning copper takes forever.  I spent likely 3-4 minutes cleaning a fitting with a 1.25" brush and likely 5-7 minutes cleaning each 1.25" pipe end.  I don't know if one needs to, but I try and sand down the "horizontal scratches" one has on the pipe inside the fitting.  Seems like these could be easy leaks....so it is worth a little time.  If you can have a helper to sand/clean....do it.  It just takes so long.  50% planning, 40% cleaning, 10% sweating....time usage.

2.  Make sure there are no brush hairs in your fitting or on your pipe in the flux.  I also looked carefully.

3.  Put a number of fittings/pipe together and then sweat them all at once.

4.  This 1.25" pipe isn't likely sweating 1/2" or 3/4" pipe.  It takes more heat and uniform heat isn't just a given like the smaller pipe.  You have to move the torch around.

5.  1.25" ball valves and etc. are big...they take heat...but don't overheat!

6.  Don't use too much solder!  I wrecked one fitting when solder ran down over the threads.  I also wrecked a Webstone Pro-Pal valve when the inner ring drooped.  I think perhaps I turned the valve too early...though I think too much heat was involved too.

7.  Give yourself an easy way to drain the tubing should you need to, i.e. at the lowest point.  If you have a leak, and you need to reheat, you have to be able to get the water out.  I didn't need to, no leaks!, but I put this in.

8.  Though heaterman says no Benzomatic, and I take his words around here like Gospel (save the politics), I used the Benzomatic and Mapp gas.  I already had it...

9.  Put in all the valves and fittings you can think of....easy way to rinse out the HX, strainers, isolation, etc. and so forth.  

10.  Wipe your joints with a dry rag....what a differnce this makes in how it looks.

11.  If you can, assemble what you can on your workbench...so much easier than doing in place (well, was for me anyways...installed height is low to the floor).

12.  They make teflon tape in 1" width...and with big pipe, it sure is nice compared to 1/2".  Find some and buy it.

13.  Teflon tape and pipe dope....no leaks!  

14.  Home Depot doesn't have nipples in 1.5" and 2", especially 2", in many lengths.  But a real plumbing supply store will have them in every 1/2" or so.....and their prices were often cheaper (for copper) than the box stores....and they don't have a damned sticker on every fitting.  Look their first....and they know what they are doing.

15.  Make sure the joints on the valves are tight.  I did have one a little loose out of the box.

16.  Setup a pressure test if you can....or test sections if possible.  I was able to assemble all the copper around my HX and test it all.  You can use a garden hose and a washing machine supply line to connect the garden hose to a boiler port.  Extremely quick and easy and you can test at water line pressure before hooking it all up and flooding...and draining if need be.  

17.  Custom cutting black iron at the box store or plumbing supply...no big deal...and if it will help make your job easier, just do it.  Usually it is free.

Hopefully some of this may help another newbie.   I surely spent more time thinking about it all then actually doing it.  You can do it yourself...Have fun and don't plan on getting it done quickly.  And oh yes, you will spend considerably time just getting all the fittings/stuff you need.  Even after you think you have it all.  

Bruce


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## DaveBP (Nov 16, 2010)

I would like to add strong second to bpirger's suggestion to add a drain valve at every low point. One with a garden hose fitting is really nice and convenient.

I would also like to suggest that for the first leak test on a system that you put a pressure gage and schraeder valve (the air valve on a tire) on somewhere handy. Pump the system up with compressed air and watch the gage. If it holds pressure overnight, you're probably leak-free. If it is slowly leaking, get out your spray bottle and fill it with very soapy water and start spraying down each joint (start with the ones that gave you the most trouble joining) and wipe off the soap with a rag as you go.

This way when you hit the leak you don't have water in the threads to squeeze out and you might even be lucky enough to just reheat a sweated joint in place.


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## in hot water (Nov 16, 2010)

I just repiped my solar lines across the ceiling of the shop. I added collectors and needed to upsize to 1".   I had to run about 80 feet of pipe.  I went with Wheatland Pipe"MegaThread".  It is a thin walled thread-able pipe commonly used in the fire sprinkler industry.

It was about 1/3 the cost of copper and about $.70  a foot less than schedule 40 black pipe.  Lighter to work overhead and a larger ID were two other benefits.

With the money saved I splurged an used 1" wall fiberglass 1000 °F insulation.  I believe it is a domestic pipe and it threaded without any tearing or rough threads.

hr


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## berlin (Nov 16, 2010)

If you want absolutely perfect, leak proof black pipe joints use teflon AND a good thread sealant. One that I HIGHLY reccomend is "Grrip" from hercules chemical: http://www.herchem.com/products/thread_sealants.html 

It's given me perfect leak and seep free joints on fuel oil plumbing, steam, NG, water and anything I've used it on. I use 1" teflon tape and brush over with the grrip.


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## nt30410 (Jun 4, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Traditionally M is for domestic water use and L is the boiler weight. L or K is sometimes specified for underground service.


 
Heaterman, I think it is opposite...no?


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## Bob Rohr (Jun 5, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Traditionally M is for domestic water use and L is the boiler weight. L or K is sometimes specified for underground service.


Copper with press fittings is another option.  You can borrow or rent a press tool.  

Press takes the potential leak concern off the table.  Press takes maybe 1/3 the time to assemble also.

Viega does have press fittings for steel and stainless steel now also.

http://www.viega.net/cps/rde/xbcr/en-us/Viega_ProPress_Systems.pdf

I think M if fine for boiler piping, take a look at the copper tube in baseboard heat elements, it is much thinner then M and it will last for a lifetime.

If copper tube fails it is usually due to fluid quality, excessive flow velocity, or bad installation practice.  Always ream the burr from copper tube if you cut it with a displacement tubing cutter.


If you go with sweat, and do have a random leak, dis-assemble the joint and re clean and start over.  Don't try to cap over a leaking solder joint, the problem is innthe fitting, not the edge


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