# VC Defiant Encore model 2190 Long thread! Pics Dutchwest re-install!



## VCBurner (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm debating purchasing a VC Defiant Encore 2190.  It is a blue enamel with the 6" and 8" flue collars.  I have a 6" thimble going into my masonry clay lined utility chimney in the basement.  It is a dedicated chimney that's not being used.  I've heard some things about the fragile refractory housing on these stoves.  The seller tells me the stove is in great shape as he took it appart every year and cleaned the secondary burn chamber and cat.  He mentions the cat is 6 years old and that he used it to supplement heat and not as a main heater.  He has never had a problem with the refractory package.  The seller purchased it new in 1994.

Can anyone comment on the* burn length of this stove*?  Or any experience with it!  How hard is it to get parts for this stove? 
Does anyone have a* link to the owner's manual*?  I could find one for the #0028 but not the #2190.


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## afptl (Jan 20, 2011)

I am burning a Vermont Castings Intrepid II which is a CAT stove.  It is smaller than the stove you are looking at.  The only thing I would say is I would not put the stove in the basement if you aren't there to watch it.  With the cat stove we have, we have to watch the temp, then switch it over to CAT.  Find, because it is in the living room and we are all here.  Could get too hot on you if left alone in the basement and not watching it. Just some thoughts, God Bless, ann


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## defiant3 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey VCburner,that could be a great unit, but what do you have planned for it?  I posted in a different thread that I'd made alot of money over the years servicing catalytic stoves and someone thought I was nuts, but this is the stove I was talking about.  THe2140, 2190,and2550 all are loaded with expensive parts that just love to have themselves for lunch!  THe magic number for these guys though is 3.  If you intend to make it "work for a living" and end up burning about 3 cords per year, I'd suggest a different stove, as this one will likely become expensive to maintain.  However, if it's NOT gonna run all the time, you'll probably get good mileage out of it.  On a cord or 2 a year they seem to hang in there.  You're also in a milder climate so that's to your advantage.  Encore are wonderful performers, and have every feature known to man.  It's a little like owning a fancy sports car(I suppose) in that when everything is tuned up and running right, they are awesome, but if one thing gets out of whack, and there are plenty of "things", she goes downhill fast.  Much more complex stove than most.  Good luck , make the right choice,Happy Heating


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## SolarAndWood (Jan 20, 2011)

defiant3 said:
			
		

> when everything is tuned up and running right, they are awesome, but if one thing gets out of whack, and there are plenty of "things", she goes downhill fast.  Much more complex stove than most.



That about sums it up.  Brings back bad memories of 4 years of misery.


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## VCBurner (Jan 20, 2011)

defiant3 said:
			
		

> Hey VCburner,that could be a great unit, but what do you have planned for it?  I posted in a different thread that I'd made alot of money over the years servicing catalytic stoves and someone thought I was nuts, but this is the stove I was talking about.  THe2140, 2190,and2550 all are loaded with expensive parts that just love to have themselves for lunch!  THe magic number for these guys though is 3.  If you intend to make it "work for a living" and end up burning about 3 cords per year, I'd suggest a different stove, as this one will likely become expensive to maintain.  However, if it's NOT gonna run all the time, you'll probably get good mileage out of it.  On a cord or 2 a year they seem to hang in there.  You're also in a milder climate so that's to your advantage.  Encore are wonderful performers, and have every feature known to man.  It's a little like owning a fancy sports car(I suppose) in that when everything is tuned up and running right, they are awesome, but if one thing gets out of whack, and there are plenty of "things", she goes downhill fast.  Much more complex stove than most.  Good luck , make the right choice,Happy Heating


This is exactly the type of reply I wanted to hear.  Could you tell me more *specific details about what usually goes wrong with these stoves *and why.  It sounds like you're experienced with these stoves, so you'd be a good source of information like this.  I've heard of the refractory package being fragile and expensive to replace.  *What other parts* are prone to frequent replacement? Thank you for your post defiant3!!


> *SolarAndWood Posted: 20 January 2011 07:14 AM *
> Brings back bad memories of 4 years of misery.


Thanks for the reply Solar!  Can you tell me what happened?  What went wrong and what did you have to replace?  Also what model did you have?


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## SolarAndWood (Jan 20, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply Solar!  Can you tell me what happened?  What went wrong and what did you have to replace?  Also what model did you have?



2140 for 2 years and then a 2190 for 2 years.  Same cycle with both.  I light in late September and burn until Mother's Day and don't have a furnace.  In retrospect, I was pushing the stoves too hard because I was a little naive in interpreting the glossy marketing brochures about what they should be able to heat.  So, they would be OK for a few months and then something small would happen that would quickly turn into something big.  One time was a split that rolled down and cracked the glass in the middle of January when we weren't home, but most were small gasket issues.  There are many places they can develop air leaks and they all aren't that noticeable if they happen over time.  Also, the burn control is finicky.  You can go away from the stove thinking you are cruise control and come back to an out of control burn.  In the end, both completely melted down within 2 years and the parts were ridiculously expensive.  The first time, I believed the dealer that it was me, the wood, etc.  The second time I found Hearth.com and came up with a more appropriate solution.

FWIW, I think if you burn them well within their spec and never push them, it is a beautiful stove that burns nicely.  Just wasn't appropriate for my application and I think this is where most people get into trouble with them.


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## homebrewz (Jan 20, 2011)

I've been running a model #0028 for several years now, and I'd have to agree with most of the comments in this thread. 

Positives: Good looking stove, efficient heater, top loader (if you care about that sort of thing)... uh, did I mention its a good looking stove? 

Negatives: Parts are expensive, the cat is on the higher end of expensive cats to replace ($200 whereas many cost about half that), fragile refractory housing (they go for about $200 to $250), lots of moving parts (stuff that can break), high learning curve to operate the stove. 

I have friends that heat their average-sized renovated 1840's house with a 2190 and they have very little trouble getting the place warm. However, they totally gutted the walls and added new siding and insulation and have a low ceiling, so for an old construction its pretty tight. Basically, it would be a good stove for someone with a tightly insulated house that wouldn't have to push the stove that hard. Though, if I were looking for a similar looking stove with similar heating capacities, I would look for something like a Jotul instead.


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## VCBurner (Jan 20, 2011)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

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Solar, I have read many of your posts. I value the opinion of an experienced stove user such as yourself.  Especially, since you used the stove I'm considering.  My goal for the basement stove is only to be a secondary heater.  We are expecting boy number 5 in May.  So I'm going to build a bedroom for my two older boys and a playroom down there.  It'll be roughly 700 square feet of finnished space.  The room would not need to be heated during the daytime.  My goal is to start fires in the afternoon for when they get home from school and have an overnight burn for the two that are sleeping down there.  I don't know how much wood it would take to do so.  I'm guessing around 1.5-2 cords of wood per season.  

Question:* How long were your burns when the Encore was in good shape?  *

I am restricted by my budget, considering all the purchases we'll be making with the new baby and construction expenses.  I'm looking at two different used stoves for $400.  The seller had the Encore advertised at $800, then he dropped it to $600 and I talked him down to $400 by voicing my concearns with the stove.  The other is a Hearthstone Harvest (built in 1990.)  The Harvest has long term heat storage with the soapstones, but parts are hard to find.  I fear the smoke seaping through the stones and a funky air intake over the glass door.  I don't know how it would work with only two fires per day.  The Encore could be a good fit, but can be expensive to maintain.  I keep my stoves clean, it's my opinion that a clean stove heats better than a clogged up and dirty one.  I take appart the connectors and secondary chamber at least twice per year to clean and inspect.  

I've thought about buying a new cheaper steel stove also.  But a new one would go for an additional $200!
Well, that's the story.  What do you and the Hearth.com community think?


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## defiant3 (Jan 20, 2011)

If $ are gonna be an issue,and for most of us it is, DON'T get an Encore.  Usually when people call me , the damper is acting wierd, or it's running too hot, or they see cracks on  the inside componentds, orthe've damaged the refractory through handleing.(  thefact vthat this guy is in there annually is enough to make me think it's kinda banged up)  An encore that needs one thing inside there is likely to need everything. Remember I said it all has to work harmoniously.  So the parts kit is over $400.00' which is all the major internals, then a catalyst is $200.00 or so , then gasket kit $40.00 or whatever, then you may pay someone to do the work... See where we're going?  This is a common thing. Sooner or later, it'l happen to you, and so an extra $200.00 or even $400.00 up front on a stove that just won't need much of anything later is SO well spent.  Keep looking.


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## SolarAndWood (Jan 20, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> I've thought about buying a new cheaper steel stove also.  But a new one would go for an additional $200!
> Well, that's the story.  What do you and the Hearth.com community think?



I saw them marking down stoves when I was at Home Depot on Tuesday.


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## Redburn (Jan 21, 2011)

I run a 2190 and it works great for me but from reading all the negatives here I keep a close eye on it I have 2 thermometers on it one on the stove the other on the oval to round collar. It helps me determine when to engage cat. For me working the air control as the wood gets caught keeps it from running away on me. Someone once described it as a woodburning machine on here lol its true I have a lot of hours in studying this stove. I run it at 550 to 650 depending on the wood. It runs at a even temp for me for 3 to 4 hrs then goes down slowly 8 to 9 hrs and I still have a lot of coals for a easy restart..... Mine is from 94 also but was like brand new it came out of a summer home that was rarely used.....  good luck.....


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## VCBurner (Jan 21, 2011)

I called the closest 4 HD's tonight and none of them have anything on sale.  Some didn't have much in stock at all!  I hate that store, to me they stand for everything that's destroying this country of ours!  Incompetent sales people who know very little about the products they sell, and the cheapest quality products they can possibly sell with the worst customer service.  

OK, now that I got that out of my chest, I don't want to buy a stove that will cause me problems in the long haul.  Is there anyone that has had a positive experience with the Defiant Encore?


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## VCBurner (Jan 21, 2011)

Redburn said:
			
		

> I run a 2190 and it works great for me but from reading all the negatives here I keep a close eye on it I have 2 thermometers on it one on the stove the other on the oval to round collar. It helps me determine when to engage cat. For me working the air control as the wood gets caught keeps it from running away on me. Someone once described it as a woodburning machine on here lol its true I have a lot of hours in studying this stove. I run it at 550 to 650 depending on the wood. It runs at a even temp for me for 3 to 4 hrs then goes down slowly 8 to 9 hrs and I still have a lot of coals for a easy restart..... Mine is from 94 also but was like brand new it came out of a summer home that was rarely used.....  good luck.....



Thanks Redburn,  how long have you had the stove?  Ever replaced any parts?  How much wood do you burn?  24/7?  How much space doyou heat with it?


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## redhat (Jan 21, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> OK, now that I got that out of my chest, I don't want to buy a stove that will cause me problems in the long haul.  Is there anyone that has had a positive experience with the Defiant Encore?



Yeah, I'm one of them. I'm on my second Encore, I retired a 20 year old  0028  a few years ago and replaced it with a 2550.  The catalytic  encores have all the features  I'm looking for in a stove: long burn times, top loading and swing out ash pan.  If there is a better looking stove out there I've yet to see it.  I burn 24.x7 and run through about 4 cord a year, so  guess I would not be considered a casual burner.

I agree that replacement parts are not cheap, but  prices are a lot better now under MHSC  ownership than they were in the  CFM days.  I did  a complete rebuild on my 0028 after I pulled it out of service, it was in rough shape after 20 years but other than replacing cats every 5 years no other work had been done on it. For me the Encores are worth the extra expense,  but they are not for everyone.


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## Redburn (Jan 21, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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I've had it for 3 seasons so far and no problems except gaskets..... I have  been burning since November we have a 3800 sqft victorian tuder big open floor plan. The first yr the oil man told us it cut our bill about 50 % which is good for us , being a large older home i worry about pipes breaking. I burn about 4 to 5 cords . I start burning early because the house is stone and seems cold. How much is the guy asking for the stove? I paid 800$ but it was mint and I had the wamring shelves and the heat shields top and bottom........ the combuster was like new


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## defiant3 (Jan 21, 2011)

Redburn, give it another year or two....


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 21, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> OK, now that I got that out of my chest, I don't want to buy a stove that will cause me problems in the long haul.  Is there anyone that has had a positive experience with the Defiant Encore?




Here's my two cents on the subject.

I love the look of VC stoves and I hope the new 2-in-1 stoves prove to be reliable, well made, and cost effective to maintain. If that is the case I will buy one in the future to replace the Vigilant in the next few years.

BUT, the old cat system was expensive to maintain. Anywhere from $700-1100 dollars every few years for the Encores and Defiants. That cost right there is the equivalent of a new stove from several manufacturers. When I was shopping for the third stove I ran across several Encores and Defiants that were seemingly in great visual condition and made within the last 10 years going for $500-$900 as the owners were just trying to unload them since they were tired of the ongoing maintenance cost. Everyone of them needed new Cats and Assemblies along with additional parts. Yes, all stoves need to be maintained and additional costs are involved. But the cost of maintaining the larger VC is quite a bit more than nearly every other stove on the market.

Does that mean you will have a bad experience? No. You may be lucky and your stove functions well and your assembly & cat lasts you for many years with the cost to maintain the stove ending up being inexpensive. But, my feeling is that luck should not play a part in successfully heating a home. I had to go in another direction.

I'm not saying you should or should not purchase the stove. But you need to keep this in mind when you make your purchase and you need to ask your self are you willing to spend the equivalence of another stove to maintain your stove every few years?


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## VCBurner (Jan 21, 2011)

Thank you for all the responses!  You guys are not making my decision any easier.  People tried to steer me away from purchasing a Dutchwest.  Lots of folks had bad memories, but so far it's been a blast to burn in it.  I can't complain about it at all, it does everything I wanted it to do and more.  Finicky? I guess sometimes.  But it has heated my house extremely well.  



> *Redburn*
> How much is the guy asking for the stove?


It's a 1994 Defiant Encore #2190 in blue enamel.  He had it priced at $800 originally.  Obviously too strong for a 16 year old stove.  Dropped it to $600 by the time I saw it.  I explained the situation and offered $350, he'll accept $400.  He has the original 8" flue collar and the optional 6" collar to go with it (also comes with a hearth pad.)  I have not seen it in person yet.  He tells me he only used it to supplement heat and has cleaned the secondary chamber every year.  He says the stove is in good functioning shape.  The cat is 6 years old, but not used frequently, so he says.  



> *redhat Posted: 20 January 2011 09:33 PM *
> Iâ€™m on my second Encore, I retired a 20 year old 0028 a few years ago and replaced it with a 2550.  The catalytic encores have all the features Iâ€™m looking for in a stove: long burn times, top loading and swing out ash pan.  If there is a better looking stove out there Iâ€™ve yet to see it.  I burn 24.x7 and run through about 4 cord a year, so guess I would not be considered a casual burner.
> 
> I agree that replacement parts are not cheap, but prices are a lot better now under MHSC ownership than they were in the CFM days.  I did a complete rebuild on my 0028 after I pulled it out of service, it was in rough shape after 20 years but other than replacing cats every 5 years no other work had been done on it. For me the Encores are worth the extra expense,  but they are not for everyone.


Souds like a happy owner to me.  Thanks for the comment redhat.  It means a lot to me that you replaced a 20 year old #0028 with a newer model.  I love the look of these stoves.  Burning four cords a year and doing the job also makes a difference.


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## Redburn (Jan 21, 2011)

defiant3 said:
			
		

> Redburn, give it another year or two....


Lol!! That's what I was thinking ..... Been looking at Oslo's my buddy has a #3 and I like how it runs.... The thermometer is my guide to keeping the the stove at a safe running temp and making it last , my opinion is dont over fire and it will last longer thermometer is 20$ buy a couple of the 3 of my friends said the stove shop people never mentioned it?????? wow! one guy broke 3 bricks the other a weld and a couple bricks.... Thermometer there less than 20$ Saves stoves lives.....People here say u don't need them if u don't then we don't need them in cars either or on our ovens..... LOL just ranting........


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## Jimxj2000 (Jan 22, 2011)

I have a 2140 that we have been burning 24X7 October through April.  This is our 5th year using it and I think I know what I am doing now.  But it has taken 5 years and a rebuild of the stove to get to the point of knowing how to work the stove.  

I donâ€™t think it is a bad stove â€“ lots of heat and high efficiency.  If you are buying your wood â€“ high efficiency means less money.  If not then, less cutting, splitting and stacking.  Time is money too.  

They to take some work â€“ tending the fire and maintenance.   We are now running two thermometers â€“ stove top and flue.  The cat needs to be cleaned every couple weeks â€“ this only takes a few minutes with a cool stove (like end of an overnight burn).  There are little things that can and will break â€“ like the damper tabs on the door and wire for the thermostat handle. You can find the parts on-line and the repair manual â€“ look in the wiki section on this page.  If not send me an email I think I have a copy.  The factory service manual is very good with what to check and how to fix.  This is different from the owners manual. 

We had to take ours apart last spring.  The second tab on the damper door broke and it would not stay closed.  With hindsight we should have fix it after the first tab broke.  Once taking it apart we realize it needed some work.  The refractory was completely falling apart, the fire back was warped, and all the passages were filled with ash. 

We thought about replacing the stove we a new one.  But the $500 in parts was much cheaper than a quality new stove.  Once we put the stove back together and ran it we realized it probably was never working correctly since we bought the house.  Great heat, long burn times, and we feel like we know how to run the stove now.  My wife tends it during the day.  

Congratulations on #5.  Our 5th in one the way, so I am thinking of putting a second stove similar stove in the addition.  

One other potential drawback is that stove likes to run, it doesnâ€™t like to startup.  From match time to walking away for the day is probably close to an hour for lighting, getting the fire going, warming up the stove, engaging the cat, disengaging the cat, adding some more wood, heating it up, engaging the cat, etc.  I am sure this can be done faster, but I like to go slow with the heat up â€“ I suspect a lot of the warping and cracking occurs during start.


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## leeave96 (Jan 22, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> I called the closest 4 HD's tonight and none of them have anything on sale.  Some didn't have much in stock at all!  I hate that store, to me they stand for everything that's destroying this country of ours!  Incompetent sales people who know very little about the products they sell, and the cheapest quality products they can possibly sell with the worst customer service.
> 
> OK, now that I got that out of my chest, I don't want to buy a stove that will cause me problems in the long haul.  Is there anyone that has had a positive experience with the Defiant Encore?



My Dad had a Defiant Encore (recently found this out after tracking down the current owner) and I thought it was a very good stove.  My Dad had a love/hate relationship with it.  Expensive stove which replaced his Englander smoke dragon of the day and yet made a bunch of creosote.  It was a cat stove.  I don't think my Dad ever really ran the stove correctly to light-off the cat and he could have used a little more seasoned wood.  Other than that, no problems.  It was an early 90's stove.  The current owner told me he has it in his living room and it is still going strong.

For 400 bucks, it might be worth a look.

Good luck,
Bill


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## VCBurner (Jan 22, 2011)

JimJ said:
			
		

> I have a 2140 that we have been burning 24X7 October through April.  This is our 5th year using it and I think I know what I am doing now.  But it has taken 5 years and a rebuild of the stove to get to the point of knowing how to work the stove.
> 
> I donâ€™t think it is a bad stove â€“ lots of heat and high efficiency.  If you are buying your wood â€“ high efficiency means less money.  If not then, less cutting, splitting and stacking.  Time is money too.
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Congratulations on your new addition to the family!  From your comments, it seems that this stove is hard to operate but can be great if done correctly.  That is the main conclusion so far.  How long between reloads?  It says 10 hours on the specs do you agree?


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## redhat (Jan 23, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> From your comments, it seems that this stove is hard to operate but can be great if done correctly.  That is the main conclusion so far.  How long between reloads?  It says 10 hours on the specs do you agree?



I would say the Encore is no harder to operate than any other cat stove out there.   With a full load of hardwood you can go 10 hrs between loads and still have enough coals left to get a new load going fairly easily.


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## VCBurner (Jan 23, 2011)

redhat said:
			
		

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I talked to the wife about it today.  She has always loved the look of the Defiant Encores.  She sees my plan now and agrees with the purchase.  Also talked to the seller today and said I would come down to hopefully take it home at some point in late February.  He said he was not in a hurry and would hold it for me.  I owe him a call to finalize a pick up day in a couple of weeks.  It all depends on a visual inspection of the firebox and exterior of the stove.  The advice of the guy who sold me my first EPA stove also came in handy.  He told me to inspect the cat, refractory and fireback for signs of warpage and overfires. As well as evidence of cracking of the enamel as a sure sign of abuse.  Based on this inspection I'll either come home with it or leave it in New Hampshire!  

Please feel free to give your opinion. I still want to learn more about this stove, good or bad!  Thanks everyone.

Chris


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## BrowningBAR (Jan 23, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Also talked to the seller today and said I would come down to hopefully take it home at some point in late February.  He said he was not in a hurry and would hold it for me.  I owe him a call to finalize a pick up day in a couple of weeks.




If you are interested in the stove and want it, put the money down now and pick it up as soon as possible. It is well documented that I had a tough time purchasing the third stove. I had two Fireviews and a Mansfield fall through on me. One was sold out from under me and the other two "changed their mind". I had a pick up and payment agreement with all three.

Bottom line; you want the stove? Pick it up ASAP.


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## VCBurner (Jan 23, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

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Thanks for the heads up Browning, I remember the issues you had.  I asked him if he wanted a deposit, but he said no.  He is a southern gentleman who lives in NH.  Though, I hear what you're saying, if someone shows up with the cash he'll take it.  I'm sure.  Maybe I'll see if we can go up and give him a deposit.  It's beautiful in New Hampshire this time of the year.  I was just trying to avoid the long journey twice.  I won't have the dough till mid February.


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## Jimxj2000 (Jan 24, 2011)

How long between reloads?  It says 10 hours on the specs do you agree? 


Right now with it about 3F outside and not using the oil heat, we reload about 4-5 hours and have the stove running at about 600F (on the stove top).  This is close to max output of heat - although we are not burning the best wood - some junk pieces and lower quality stuff.   Luck of the draw for getting stuff off the wood pile.   I do have some dry red oak for tonight, should be able to get about 7 hours and still have the top over 400F.

For lower heat output, I can get about 14 hours of burn time and have just enough coals to not need a match.  Before the rebuild only about 10 hours.


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## defiant3 (Jan 24, 2011)

Good luck to you VCB  and not to sound snarky at all' may I offer that I too am in New Hampshire and if the deal falls throoo, P.M.me.  I've got reconditioned V.C. stoves.  Happy Heating.


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## VCBurner (Jan 24, 2011)

defiant3 said:
			
		

> Good luck to you VCB  and not to sound snarky at all' may I offer that I too am in New Hampshire and if the deal falls throoo, P.M.me.  I've got reconditioned V.C. stoves.  Happy Heating.



Thank you very much for the offer Defiant3,  I have looked for stoves for three Winters in a row now.  It's always good to know people who are in that busyness.  Where abouts is your shop, send me a PM.  Maybe I'll come up when I make the journey!  I hope to get a decent stove that can be run for a couple of years before I can rebuild the thing from scratch.  I'm looking for a good source for those lift handtrucks, do you know where I can get a good deal on one?

Thanks, 

Chris


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## VCBurner (Jan 29, 2011)

Here's a bad picture of the stove I'll be picking up in a couple of weeks.  It was taken with a cell phone so please don't mind it.  Just sort of a representation of what it really looks like!


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## VCBurner (Feb 23, 2011)

Wow! I just got done reading the entire thread again! It always amazes me how m,uch good information can be obtained from this site. Thank you all who have posted with information on this stove. I really have come to realize that like most stoves these are not fond of being pushed constantly. I will only be heating at most 1750 sq ft with this stove. It will also have the help of my Dutchwest Large Cat. Together they will completely blow us out of this house, even if I heat the entire 2000 sq ft that will be finished before the baby comes in May! Right now the DW heats 1000 even during the coldest below zero temps that Central Mass have to offer occasionally. Once the Encore is here (provided it passes inspection,) the two should work in uni sen just fine. I have not decided which one is going in the living room or basement yet. I may end up with the DW back in the finished basement. I know how to operate it comfortably enough to leave it down there without constant babysitting. The fear is that the Encore will blow us out of the living room. The radiant heat may prove to be too much in there, as it is not part of an open floor lay out. The only opening is a cased opening the size of a doorway, which leads to the main hallway in the middle of the house. Moving the air is a constant battle. I may add some duct work in the attic leading to the three bedrooms as well as an in-line wall fan to get warm air to the kitchen. Both these set ups would be connected to a thermostat in the living room/ stove room. In this case the DW is only going to heat 750 sq ft of the basement. However it will do the job of heating the entire house during the shoulder season. I still have a lot to think about before I make a decision, either way this won't be until the next heating season. 

The Encore was supposed to get picked up last Saturday, but I had to delay the pick up by another week. It will be picked up this Friday or Saturday. In the meantime, I found some warming shelves on Ebay which arrived today. They suffered some damage to the enamel during shipping, as was apparent from the pieces of enamel in the bottom of the box. This could have been avoided by wrapping each piece with cardboard before putting them in the box. Now I have to resort to touch up paint, but they should look Ok with a bit of cover up. Again, thanks for all the input, I will post some pics as soon as the stove is here.  This is an Ebay pic of the shelves, they are actually darker (midnight blue,) the flash makes them appear light blue.


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## Wyld Bill (Feb 25, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Here's a bad picture of the stove I'll be picking up in a couple of weeks.  It was taken with a cell phone so please don't mind it.  Just sort of a representation of what it really looks like!


Wow tha tlooks just exactly like mine except in good shape,..same color & everything.


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## Wyld Bill (Feb 25, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Wow! I just got done reading the entire thread again! It always amazes me how m,uch good information can be obtained from this site. Thank you all who have posted with information on this stove. I really have come to realize that like most stoves these are not fond of being pushed constantly. I will only be heating at most 1750 sq ft with this stove. It will also have the help of my Dutchwest Large Cat. Together they will completely blow us out of this house, even if I heat the entire 2000 sq ft that will be finished before the baby comes in May! Right now the DW heats 1000 even during the coldest below zero temps that Central Mass have to offer occasionally. Once the Encore is here (provided it passes inspection,) the two should work in uni sen just fine. I have not decided which one is going in the living room or basement yet. I may end up with the DW back in the finished basement. I know how to operate it comfortably enough to leave it down there without constant babysitting. The fear is that the Encore will blow us out of the living room. The radiant heat may prove to be too much in there, as it is not part of an open floor lay out. The only opening is a cased opening the size of a doorway, which leads to the main hallway in the middle of the house. Moving the air is a constant battle. I may add some duct work in the attic leading to the three bedrooms as well as an in-line wall fan to get warm air to the kitchen. Both these set ups would be connected to a thermostat in the living room/ stove room. In this case the DW is only going to heat 750 sq ft of the basement. However it will do the job of heating the entire house during the shoulder season. I still have a lot to think about before I make a decision, either way this won't be until the next heating season.
> 
> The Encore was supposed to get picked up last Saturday, but I had to delay the pick up by another week. It will be picked up this Friday or Saturday. In the meantime, I found some warming shelves on Ebay which arrived today. They suffered some damage to the enamel during shipping, as was apparent from the pieces of enamel in the bottom of the box. This could have been avoided by wrapping each piece with cardboard before putting them in the box. Now I have to resort to touch up paint, but they should look Ok with a bit of cover up. Again, thanks for all the input, I will post some pics as soon as the stove is here.  This is an Ebay pic of the shelves, they are actually darker (midnight blue,) the flash makes them appear light blue.



Nice score dood!


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## VCBurner (Feb 25, 2011)

Wyld Bill said:
			
		

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Thanks W. Bill, 

I thought yours looked very similar.  I was supposed to pick it up tonight, but with all the rain/sleet and mess on the roads, I thought the 2 hour trip would not be too good.  I'll be going tomorrow morning instead.  Ugg, I've cancelled the pick up three times now!  No more delays, please!  I really want to see it, the shelves are waiting for a home in the living room.  Bedford, New Hampshire here I come.


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## Wyld Bill (Feb 26, 2011)

Just make sure the first thing you do before you move it is TAKE OFF THE LEGS!!  They are expensive & break VERY easy!


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## VCBurner (Feb 26, 2011)

Wyld Bill said:
			
		

> Just make sure the first thing you do before you move it is TAKE OFF THE LEGS!!  They are expensive & break VERY easy!



Great, thanks Bill, I was wondering if anyone had some moving tips?  I was planning on removing the legs.  I'm bringing a hand truck, furniture dolly and some planks to get it into the van.  Do I have to remove anything else from the bottom?  Ash pan?  How do you usually move them?


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 26, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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I'd remove everything you can. Legs, doors, top griddle, ash pan. It will make it easier to move.


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## Diabel (Feb 26, 2011)

Last year I got good tips from here about moving an encore. Since then I have moved three of them with a tiny bit of help from the sellers. Two 2x6s & a dolly ($45.00 at h.d.). Unless, you are moving it from a second floor.
Make sure you tie it to the dolly!


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## VCBurner (Feb 26, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

> Last year I got good tips from here about moving an encore. Since then I have moved three of them with a tiny bit of help from the sellers. Two 2x6s & a dolly ($45.00 at h.d.). Unless, you are moving it from a second floor.
> Make sure you tie it to the dolly!



As I mentioned, I do have a furniture dolly (on casters) and a hand truck with pneumatic tires.  I have moved my DW from the downstairs to the upstairs before with the handtruck.  It weighs 436 pounds, so I have some experience.  But the Encore seems a bit harder to move due to the rear controls and the swing out ash pan.  How did you move yours, what did you take off them?  Can you put it on the handtruck on its bottom, do you have to take off the ash pan?


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## VCBurner (Feb 26, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

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Sounds like good advice, Browning.  I will remove as much as pissible.


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## Diabel (Feb 26, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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I am assuming a handtruck is like a standard utility dolly. You set it up from the back of the encore, tip it, once the stove is resting on the dolly horizontally ...face/front facing up, you tie it up to the dolly (tight). Rest your planks (2x6s) on the ramp of your van, you pull the dolly into the van with you coming in first...your seller surly will help you push from the other side (he wants that junk out). You rest the dolly horizontal in the van for traveling, make sure you tie the dolly inside the van (to the van body), so it dost not more around on you. At home you can easily slide it out by yourself.


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## VCBurner (Feb 26, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

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Right on Diabel!  Thanks for the tip.  I thought, I had it under control, but the more I thought about it, the more I doubted myself.  Wow, I just said I four times in one sentence. :wow:   I better go to bed soon, my son has a 7am indoor soccer game tomorrow, I better get some rest.   It'll be a long day.  Sunday is my yongest son's 5th bday party, so we still have lots to do before then.  

Thanks again,

Chris


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## Diabel (Feb 26, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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Have fun tomorrow & take your time!


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## homebrewz (Feb 26, 2011)

Remove the doors, ash grate, ash pan, griddle top, and the flue collar. That should lighten it up a bit. You can also remove the back.. its held on by 6 bolts. Although it may make a small mess as fly ash spills out of it onto the guy's floor. If you remove the back, remove the metal cat cover, access panel, and cat first. Take care not to bang anything into the refractory package when removing and storing the back. 

Pick up a furniture dolly at Home Cheapo and two people should be able to easily lift it square onto the dolly. You can remove the legs, but if you're careful and strap it down well you might not need too. Don't forget any odds and ends that might come with it, like the handle thingy (technical term) for opening the doors and the damper plate.


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## VCBurner (Feb 26, 2011)

homebrewz said:
			
		

> Remove the doors, ash grate, ash pan, griddle top, and the flue collar. That should lighten it up a bit. You can also remove the back.. its held on by 6 bolts. Although it may make a small mess as fly ash spills out of it onto the guy's floor. If you remove the back, remove the metal cat cover, access panel, and cat first. Take care not to bang anything into the refractory package when removing and storing the back.
> 
> Pick up a furniture dolly at Home Cheapo and two people should be able to easily lift it square onto the dolly. You can remove the legs, but if you're careful and strap it down well you might not need too. Don't forget any odds and ends that might come with it, like the handle thingy (technical term) for opening the doors and the damper plate.



Got it!  Furniture dolly and utility dolly already in the van!  Thanks again for the helpful tips.  I'm off to NH!


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## homebrewz (Feb 26, 2011)

I hope it all works out. Post an update later and let us know how it turned out. 

Last bit of advice. Don't forget to visit your local, friendly package store for some tax free hooch before you head back home.


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## VCBurner (Feb 27, 2011)

Thank you all for the moving tips as well as advice on this stove.  The trip was pretty long, but it was a nice clear day.  It was only 55 miles, but it felt like 150.  The stove was in pristine condition, with the exception of a couple of small chips on the enamel.  I'll be picking up some touch up paint to fix those.  He really only used it to supplement heat, as he eventually went geothermal back in Ohio.  I started by taking off the fash pan and grate, followed by the fireback, top griddle and all the handles.  There was no need to take the legs off, the dolly lifted them right off the ground.  The flue collar also came off.  It was extremely easy to put the utility dolly into the back of the stove, then strap it and tilt it up.  Rolling it up the planks into my minivan was a breeze.  I tied it down to the seat hooks on the floor of the van.  The seats had been removed so there was plenty of space.  The stove stayed on the dolly on the ride, being completely tied to it in both directions.  The hearth pad, which came with the stove originally was extremely heavy and took up lots of room in the van.  

The stove came with all the original paperwork.  Including, the manual, brochures, EPA paper tag, Set up instruction pamphlet, Accents for the Hearth brochure, as well as the original purchase receipt!  It was purchased from:

Bauer Stoves & Fireplaces
3548 SR 54
Urbana, Ohio 43078
513-484-3456
1-800-762-9802

The date of purchase was made on SEp 30, 1994 in the total of $2165.84.
It included the stove, a 6" flue collar, thermometer and hearth board.  

I'm very happy with the purchase.  Can't wait to put it in my livingroom and add the shelves to it.  Again, thank you all for the moving tips and experience testimony.  *The moving tips were very helpful today!! *I'll be sure to take and post pics as soon as I can.  For tonight, it will sit in the garage until tomorrow afternoon, after my sons birthday party!  I'll install it then.


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## VCBurner (Feb 27, 2011)

homebrewz said:
			
		

> I hope it all works out. Post an update later and let us know how it turned out.
> 
> Last bit of advice. Don't forget to visit your local, friendly package store for some tax free hooch before you head back home.



It went really well.  Not a thing went wrong, I over planned for it, but it all came in handy.  I wish I caught your last bit of advice earlier.  A corona would really do the trick while I watch the UFC fights right now!

Thanks for the tips!

Chris


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## VCBurner (Feb 27, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

> Have fun tomorrow & take your time!



Thank you so much for the solid moving advice.  The dolly worked better than I thought.  It lifts the thing right up, elevating the stove without putting pressure on the back legs!  I left it on the dolly, just like you said.  But it was placed with the handle in between the two front seats. So it could not go forward, I just needed to keep it from sliding back with a strap tied to the seat hooks.  I also stapped the stove to the dolly with two straps going across each other.  Then the whole stove was strapped to the floor with two other straps.  I could have rolled the van over and it prolly would have stayed!  I was able to unload the thing by myself from the van into the garage.  


Here are some observations for this Encore thread:

The Encore is much lighter than my Dutchwest.  Encore specs put it at 350 pounds the DW is 438 pounds.  Interesting, that the Encore is said to heat 1900 sq ft and the DW up to 1600.  Heat output max for the Encore is 47,000 BTU and the DW 40,000 BTU.  I've yet to measure the Encore firebox, but I know it is not as wide 20" as opposed to 22" logs.  It may also be much taller inside even though the stove itself is 3/8"  shorter than the DW with the short legs.  The cat, secondary burn chamber and convection chamber on the top of the firebox take up a lot of space on the DW.  I'll be curious to see the difference in radiant vs. convection heat.  I bet the blower on the DW will be missed.  However, the Encore should be more than able to meet my heating needs.  I suspect it will exceed my expectations just as the DW did! I know I will love the top loading door.  It should be much easier to keep the surrounding area clean.  I won't miss having to get on my knees to load the side door.  The DW will go to the basement, heating 750 sq ft of wide open space, that will be made into a bedroom/playroom.  Pictures will be sent!!  Don't worry.  Good night to all!

Chris


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## Diabel (Feb 27, 2011)

I am glad everything worked out. Now give it a good inspection, cleaning & get get fired up. In terms of weight, yes it weighs about 350lbs. I am surprised that DW is that much heavier! I am also surprised that the new 2 in 1 encore weight 475lbs! That is 125lbs more unless it is the large defiant that is 475lbs.


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## VCBurner (Feb 28, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

> I am glad everything worked out. Now give it a good inspection, cleaning & get get fired up. In terms of weight, yes it weighs about 350lbs. I am surprised that DW is that much heavier! I am also surprised that the new 2 in 1 encore weight 475lbs! That is 125lbs more unless it is the large defiant that is 475lbs.



Yeah, the DW is a beast!  It heats like one too!  All cast iron and the refractory sits on top of the fire so nothing can touch it.  I don't know how they got the Encore to heat that much with such little weight compared to most mid sized cast iron stoves.  I also don't understand how they gained that much weight with the new Encores in the same body?  

Looks like I won't have time today to install the Encore, but I'll get to it sometime this week, hopefully tomorrow.  But who knows, after a long weekend and a Monday at work, building an addition to an elementary school.  I may not have enough energy to get that thing in the house.  Plus, we are supposed to get some more snow, so I'm sure to have some snow removal to do around here.  But I can't wait to fire it up!


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## BrowningBAR (Feb 28, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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Yes, the new Encore ways over 121lbs more than the old Encore. The new Defiant weighs in at 518lbs, 38 lbs more than the old Defiant.


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## greenbrierwv (Feb 28, 2011)

i have an older 2190.  it is a very good stove and burns forever with a load of good oak.  one key thing to do with this stove that i have learned is CLEAN YOUR CAT.  This is probably the most important thing you can do.  after cleaning it runs like a champ and it always amazes me.  by the way, this stove is not hard to run at all, not sure where that is coming from.  if you have dry wood you will have this thing pegged within a couple of weeks.  one thing with this stove it likes to produce heat and lots of it.  i have a 2500sqft house and during these warmer (50day/30night) it will heat the whole house day and night, of course i also have a couple solar heaters supplementing.  but a great stove all around and you will like it.  mine is actually due a rebuild after this burning season so we shall see how that goes.


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## raybonz (Feb 28, 2011)

Hey Chris congrats on your new stove! Look forward to the pics and your experiences with it.. As for the lighter weight I think it will be lighter as it is not a convection stove.. Convection stoves as you know are a cast iron box in a box so lots more cast iron.. So you end up with an extra inner top, inner bottom and inner back...

Ray


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## certified106 (Feb 28, 2011)

Congrats on the stove can't wait to see the pictures when it is in it's new home! Also looking forward to reading about your experiences, likes, and dislikes. We are also looking for a new stove before next year and I'm curious to see if you miss the convection of the Dutchwest as I can't imagine a stove without convection.


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## VCBurner (Mar 1, 2011)

greenbrierwv said:
			
		

> i have an older 2190.  it is a very good stove and burns forever with a load of good oak.  one key thing to do with this stove that i have learned is CLEAN YOUR CAT.  This is probably the most important thing you can do.  after cleaning it runs like a champ and it always amazes me.  by the way, this stove is not hard to run at all, not sure where that is coming from.  if you have dry wood you will have this thing pegged within a couple of weeks.  one thing with this stove it likes to produce heat and lots of it.  i have a 2500sqft house and during these warmer (50day/30night) it will heat the whole house day and night, of course i also have a couple solar heaters supplementing.  but a great stove all around and you will like it.  mine is actually due a rebuild after this burning season so we shall see how that goes.



Thanks  gbwv, 

I'll add your comments to the plus column of the Encore's +/- tally.  I must have a death wish, operating the DW and the Encore in the same house! :vampire:   Two of the most notorious stoves around here.  People seem to have a love/hate relationship with them and VC in general.  I couldn't be happier with my stove situation.  The Encore has yet to be tested here, but I have an inkling it will do just fine.  I will make sure to keep it clean, as I feel this is the biggest culprit in ruinning the inside of these Encores (researching these has lead me to this conclusion.)  By the time we are done with all the remodeling we'll have about 2000 sq ft to heat.


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## VCBurner (Mar 1, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Hey Chris congrats on your new stove! Look forward to the pics and your experiences with it.. As for the lighter weight I think it will be lighter as it is not a convection stove.. Convection stoves as you know are a cast iron box in a box so lots more cast iron.. So you end up with an extra inner top, inner bottom and inner back...
> 
> Ray



Thanks Ray, 
You're totally right about the extra weight on the DW's wth all those double walls.  Man, are they heavy!  I'll make sure to post pics as soon as it makes its way into the house.  A side by side shot of the Dw and Encore will surely be posted.   Maybe the legs will come alive and walk themselves right into the house from the garage.  Wouldn't that be nice!


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## VCBurner (Mar 1, 2011)

certified106 said:
			
		

> Congrats on the stove can't wait to see the pictures when it is in it's new home! Also looking forward to reading about your experiences, likes, and dislikes. We are also looking for a new stove before next year and I'm curious to see if you miss the convection of the Dutchwest as I can't imagine a stove without convection.



Thanks certified,

I can't wait to run this thing.  I will make sure to post as much as possible about the Encore.  Now that I'm back to work full time it'll be a little less than I would like.  I will not take the Dw completely out of the equation, though.  However, for the rest of the season, the Encore will be in the living room, as this will be the easiest way to learn how to operate it.  This means that the DW will be in the basement, and will warm up the room while I do the remodeling project.  Next heating season will depend on how the Encore performs.  My goal would be to have the stronger of the two downstairs and have it do most of the heating from down there.  The Encore should be the stronger of the two according to the numbers. The shoulder season, I will certainly be able to heat the whole 2000 sq ft with the Encore or with the Dw for that matter.  During the really cold winter, the Dw will most likely be adding to the mix from the living room I'd immagine.  My goal for the coldest days is to have the heat from the living room stove heat the kitchen, dining room and one bedroom as well.  The basement stove, I hope will heat the two bedrooms on that side of the house as well as the 750 sq ft finished part of the basement.


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## raybonz (Mar 1, 2011)

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I hear ya on the weight thing man they should have put wheels on these stoves lol.. I dreaded moving the stove to take the stove pipe off! I now have a slip pipe so it can be taken off without moving the stove.. Yay! Guess it's time for you to start a new diary thread for your new stove eh? You have one advantage and that is you have info from others experiences with that stove so you know what works and what doesn't..

Good Luck!
Ray


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## raybonz (Mar 1, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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Chris I would be sure to keep a heavy pot of water on top the DW if you're running with the boys downstairs.. Man those cooktops get insanely hot as you know! Mine reads around 800+ degrees surface temp with the IR gun! My concern would be something being thrown onto the stove or placed etc.. When I used to smoke in the house I would light my cigarette  off the cooktop or the window glass lol.. The cooktops on these stoves are great for adding moisture to your home with those intense temps..

Ray


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## certified106 (Mar 5, 2011)

Soooo did you get the stove in yet?


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## VCBurner (Mar 5, 2011)

Nope!  I'm in here reading other people's posts instead! :lol:
But another important factor is the really small pile of wood that is not cut or split outside.  There are a few huge knotty logs out there that are cut but not split.  I was not ready with mt wood supply this year and am paying for it now!  The furnace is now heating the house and has been since last saturday!  I'm thinking of buying some bio bricks to last the remaider of the heating season.  If they are as good as they are supposed to be a ton should suffice.  We got another 100 gallons of oil last week, for $3.30/gal.  This was three months too early, as compared to last year.  I had 5.5 cords ready last year.  This year not even 3.  But I will get the stove in here this weekend.  

I also just got back on the job and it has been tough!  Yesterday was really cold, lows in the single digits and with a lake wind sweeping through the job, I thought I was going to freeze while on a boom lift in the AM.  So I went out after work and got two brand new pairs of boots (one winter and one summer) and more Merino whool socks!  Boots are expensive!  $135 for the cold ones and $100 for the warm season boots.  :sick: 
I have to bring my son to soccer at 11 am so maybe a little stove install before then!  It'll be my only free time this weekend, as I am blue boarding and plastering a Kitchen ceiling and hallway Sat. eve. and  sunday!  When it rains it pours!  But money talks I guess.  I'll use some of this $ to buy some bio bricks to burn in my new stove!

Thanks for the question!  

Chris


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## VCBurner (Mar 6, 2011)

OK, here I am again, playing around on Hearth.com. The encore sat all day in the garage again. I really had no time this morning, as we had to leave at 10 to get to soccer on time and getting the boys ready was my main concern in the AM. Later this afternoon, the wife and I put a new crib together for our little boy who's due in May! The side job got cancelled because the guy's furnace quit on him, so now he has to pay to get it fixed so the job will be delayed. This means that I will have time to set the stove up after all. Tomorrow's the day, I'll be taking lots of pics and can't wait to fire the thing up. I can't stand the cold in here. The heat is set on 68 and it feels like a refrigerator. If the stove was going it would be at least in the mid 70's. It will be again tomorrow. 

I'm sorry to post again with no news of the stove, I just wanted to share my angst


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## Wyld Bill (Mar 6, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> OK, here I am again, playing around on Hearth.com. The encore sat all day in the garage again. I really had no time this morning, as we had to leave at 10 to get to soccer on time and getting the boys ready was my main concern in the AM. Later this afternoon, the wife and I put a new crib together for our little boy who's due in May! The side job got cancelled because the guy's furnace quit on him, so now he has to pay to get it fixed so the job will be delayed. This means that I will have time to set the stove up after all. Tomorrow's the day, I'll be taking lots of pics and can't wait to fire the thing up. I can't stand the cold in here. The heat is set on 68 and it feels like a refrigerator. If the stove was going it would be at least in the mid 70's. It will be again tomorrow.
> 
> I'm sorry to post again with no news of the stove, I just wanted to share my angst


THis is funny to me. I used to belong to a VERY active on-line off road 4x4 forum. When I say "active" I mean,...on-line discussions were very active. I'd say about 3/4 of the people on there just spent years, thousands of hours, "talking" about what they were going to build or "talking" about actually going wheeling. Pretty funny. 
There comes a time to stop researching, stop talking about it, stop taking pictures to post on-line, & just GO DO IT


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## VCBurner (Mar 6, 2011)

:lol: I'm with you Bill! Going right now, after a couple hours of surfing the web on hearth-related stuff! :red:


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## raybonz (Mar 6, 2011)

certified106 said:
			
		

> Soooo did you get the stove in yet?



Haven't seen a pic so it's all heresay and conjecture at this point..  Still waiting for Chris to prove he really did buy that new blue enamel stove so until this happens I'd say Chris and Mars have not bought a stove..

Ray


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## VCBurner (Mar 6, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Haven't seen a pic so it's all heresay and conjecture at this point..  Still waiting for Chris to prove he really did buy that new blue enamel stove so until this happens I'd say Chris and Mars have not bought a stove..
> 
> Ray


 :lol: Here it is!  All the parts are still off of it and I just moved it from the garage into the house.  The griddle, fireback, flue collar, ash pan, grate, refractory hood and handles are still off!  I was able to move it into the house by myself strapped to the handtruck.  Used some planks to get it up the two steps into the breezeway then a piece of plywood to get it up the step into the kitchen!  Now I have to clean it and wipe off any moisture that is on it from being transferred from a cold garage into the house.


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## Diabel (Mar 6, 2011)

Nice! Is this where the encore is going?


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## raybonz (Mar 6, 2011)

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OK OK you're off the hook for now Chris!  :cheese: 

Frankly I like the Dutchwest better and I feel it'll throw the heat better.. But hey that's just my opinion.. I worked 6.5 hrs. today and haven't been on much.. You're more educated now so you'll better know how to avoid some of the pitfalls of the new VC.. Hope it all works out for you my friend!

Ray

P.S. Thanx for the pic!


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## VCBurner (Mar 6, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

> Nice! Is this where the encore is going?


Yes it is, for now!  I don't know where its permanent home will be.  I had envisioned putting it in the basement once it is finished.  But I guess I'll play it by year.  Once it is in the livingroom I may not want it to go away.  Then again it all depends on how it performs.  The good thing about having it downstairs is that it would probably be able to heat the entire house better than the DW.  If the numbers are correct!  Then I can save the DW for whenever I want to be warmer in the livingroom, like the daytime, when the boys will be at school and nobody is in the basement!  Another benefit of having it upstairs for now is i don't have to keep going downstairs to learn how to operate it.  I want to know all the ins and outs before it goes down there.  Thanks you again for the great moving tips!  It helped a ton!


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## VCBurner (Mar 6, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> OK OK you're off the hook for now Chris!  :cheese: *Thanks Ray!*
> 
> Frankly I like the Dutchwest better and I feel it'll throw the heat better.. But hey that's just my opinion..*We'll have to see now!  One thing is for sure, the Encore has big shoes to fill!* I worked 6.5 hrs. today and haven't been on much.. You're more educated now so you'll better know how to avoid some of the pitfalls of the new VC.. *I owe it all to this site and members who have shared their experience.  I remember hearing all sorts of negative comments from the anti-DW society last year.  But those are all but a memories as the Dutchwest has been a dream to operate!  *Hope it all works out for you my friend! *Thank you sir! I look forward to sharing all my experience about this new stove.*
> 
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## Diabel (Mar 6, 2011)

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Are you extending the hearth at all? As for tips....we should all thank this place!!


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## VCBurner (Mar 7, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

> Are you extending the hearth at all? As for tips....we should all thank this place!!


  I hear you there!  There is a black slate extention in the works.  I have the slate already, just have to cut it, cut out the wood floor and replace it with 1/2" cemment board and the black slate!

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, but I had a lot of work to do with the stove.  I took the insides all appart and cleaned the whole thing, checking the refractory box and cat as well as other parts for any cracks or warpage.   I'm pleased to say that the interior of the stove is impecable.  The previous owner said he had replaced the refractory assembly once.  I was sort of disappointed to see that the cat was cracked and warped, but I knew I may have to be replaced after I bought the stove.  According to the previous owner it was 6 years old.  But it looked really beat up for it to be that age.  Everything was pretty simple to take appart.  The thing that was by far the hardest, was taking the damper assembly off and putting it back in.  Next time I'll make a jig to support the weight of the damper assembly while I take off and later re attach the bolts that go through the back of the strove and hold the heavy cast iron assembly.  All the little nooks were vaccumed out and the cat was cleaned as best as could be.  The stove is 90% clean and looks really great!  I just have to dust off the little details that gather dust and are tough to clean on the exterior.  There are only a few minor cracks on the enamel, nothing that can't be touched up with some paint from VC.  This is a beautiful looking stove and I am happy to finally have it in the house.  It'll have a chance to get acclamated with the indoor temps for the night and get rid of any moisture it may have acquired in the garage.  I will fire it up this week with some break-in fires to reheat and take moisture out of the seams before a real fire is started.

Here are some more pics:
1. My little guy Max was hard at work wiping the dust off the stove!
2.The stove with all the parts that were taken out during the travel, this also represents the closest to the real color of the stove.  It looks more Navy than the brighter blue the flash makes it appear!
3.Inside without the insides!
4.The cat is pretty banged up!  Time to start looking around for one at a good price, I guess!
5.Inside the firebox with all the parts back in it.  This picture makes all the dust on it really stick out.  It had some ash all over it from having taken out all of the insides.  Dusty and messy situation. All that stuff that looks like rust in the nooks and cranies is just dust.  I already dusted off a lot of it, but it's hard to get at those inside corners.  Again, the flash makes the dust really stick out like a sore thumb! 
6.Here's where it'll spend the night untill I hook it to the chimney in place of the DW.  

It was really tough to take that damper assembly off without something to support it while you try to unscrew from the outside.  Even tougher to put it back in.  Next time I'll have a little box built up to sit perfectly under it and put it at the right height without having to hold it by hand and try to line up the bolts from the outside.


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## raybonz (Mar 7, 2011)

Chris your stove looks like it is in good shape! Too bad about the cat that thing is toast! Unfortunately that's a 200 dollar item.. Ouch! I will consider cat cost a factor in my stove buying decision for sure as that cat cost double what my cat costs.. A major factor in my mind.. If you think about it stove costs aren't all that bad compared to what we spend for the wood that we burn.. I will end up buying 3 cords and just talked to my wood guy and he will hold the price of $185.00 per cord (a good deal in this area).. He told me the fuel costs were killing him and I believe that and he has gone up to $225.00 a cord but kept my price at $185.00! I think that many like me have to buy wood and I feel it is worth the money to buy it c/s/d.... Thanx for the great pics!

Ray


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

Yeah, I'm bummed about the cat myself. I was thinking of putting the stove in today and as I removed the DW from the fireplace and looked up the flue I saw more creosote build up than I'm comfortable having. So, I'd say it's a good time to clean up the chimney tomorrow. While the stove is out, I'll be able to get at the smoke chamber and get all the build up out of there. I also realized that the whole in the block off plate is too far forward. It should be back about four more inches. These are all things I've come to realize as a result of moving the stove out today. I must say I'm really surprised at how much creosote deposit is in the chimney compared to when I installed the DW. There was way more build up from November 30th to March 7th this year with the DW than the last two years combined with the box stove in the same location. I guess this is probably due to the cooler flue temperatures the DW gives off with the cat engaged. The old cast iron box didn't even have any baffles or dampers. A lot of the heat went up the flue. This probably allowed it to condensate less in the flue. But you can't compare the heat I got from the DW to the old box. It's like night and day. The DW heated the entire house all winter by itself, even with below zero temps outside. 

Now that I think about it, the best thing to do would be to put off installation of the Encore. I have a brand new cat in the DW. It just doesn't make sense to put the Encore in with that old broken up cat. As curious as I am to burn the thing, it just doesn't make sense. 

So for now, this will be my last post on the Encore, at least until I get a cat  for it.  This may only come in the fall or late summer.  

I will go back to heating with my DW and its brand new cat, after cleaning the chimney and adjusting the block off plate.


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## raybonz (Mar 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm bummed about the cat myself. I was thinking of putting the stove in today and as I removed the DW from the fireplace and looked up the flue I saw more creosote build up than I'm comfortable having. So, I'd say it's a good time to clean up the chimney tomorrow. While the stove is out, I'll be able to get at the smoke chamber and get all the build up out of there. I also realized that the whole in the block off plate is too far forward. It should be back about four more inches. These are all things I've come to realize as a result of moving the stove out today. I must say I'm really surprised at how much creosote deposit is in the chimney compared to when I installed the DW. There was way more build up from November 30th to March 7th this year with the DW than the last two years combined with the box stove in the same location. I guess this is probably due to the cooler flue temperatures the DW gives off with the cat engaged. The old cast iron box didn't even have any baffles or dampers. A lot of the heat went up the flue. This probably allowed it to condensate less in the flue. But you can't compare the heat I got from the DW to the old box. It's like night and day. The DW heated the entire house all winter by itself, even with below zero temps outside.
> 
> Now that I think about it, the best thing to do would be to put off installation of the Encore. I have a brand new cat in the DW. It just doesn't make sense to put the Encore in with that old broken up cat. As curious as I am to burn the thing, it just doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



Chris check this site out.. You may need it sometime..

http://www.increa.com/reverse/defiant-encore-stove-catalytic-replacement/index.html


Are these cats any good?? http://catcombustor.mybisi.com/product/24165/25-X-13-Defiant-Encore-2550-and-2190-Canned_67594.html

Ray


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Chris check this site out.. You may need it sometime..
> 
> http://www.increa.com/reverse/defiant-encore-stove-catalytic-replacement/index.html
> 
> ...



Thanks again Ray, I actually followed the first site you posted while taking out the refractory assembly for inspection and clean up.  It was a royal PITA.  The heavy damper assembly actually has to be pulled out while keeping it from hitting the refractory box and unbolting the bolts from the outside of the stove.  I can see why people crush these boxes while taking out the secondary components.  The next time I take out this box, I will have something inside to support the weight of the damper assembly.  Luckily, it is done now and the cat can be replaced by simply removing an access panel from the refractory box.  

As far as the Clear Skies, cats in the second link, I saw those a while back and though about them but couldn't find where I put them in my favorites.  So thanks for posting the link again.  Their home page states that the combustors are only an inch thick.  Automatically you think that they may not be able to compete with other thicker cats, as far as heat output and particle removal.  But, you presented a good question:  does anyone have one of these cats in their stove?  Are they any good?


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## raybonz (Mar 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> raybonz said:
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Those Clear Sky cats seem to have a large surface area but I am thinking they would/could clog and be hard to clean.. Man I am surprised how expensive your VC cat is.. I think they probably sell alot less of those vs a standard 6"x2" like Dutchwest uses.. I hate it when companies disregard upkeep cost on their products!

Ray


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## Diabel (Mar 8, 2011)

I have been following this thread, but too busy to post. 

Chris, 

When you say lots of creo. from the DW can you quantify it....

How big of space are planning on heating with the encore?

That cat looks marginal (I would not call it dead) only few cells that are cracked. I would still put it to use, especially during learning period.

I got one of the cats from Clear Skies..... 1" with the ceramic mesh (you could hardly see through it new!!). When cleaning the stove back in Nov. I decided to inspect & clean the cat. I swapped with the CS one. At first it worked fine, it would actually light off sooner than OEM. By X-mas I noticed the stove performing sluggish....& the back of it was not throwing much heat. I took it out & it was 75% clogged with fine particle. It was very hard to clean...! The CS cat is sitting on a shelf ever since. 

I my opinion, I would clean the chimney & put the DW back in the room for the rest of this season.....

btw the encore looks like it is in a great shape!!


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

Diabel said:
			
		

> Chris,
> 
> When you say lots of creo. from the DW can you quantify it....*I'm cleaning it today.  I can see that some sticky stuff had built up on it then dried up and more ash like stuff stuck on top of it.  I'll take a picture so all can see! I'd say maybe 3/16" to 1/4" inside the smoke chamber.  Again, the stove was connected directly into the block off plate with nothing up above.  Once I reinstall it I'm going to put a pipe extending above the block off plate into the liner part of the chimney.  Like it is supposed to be! *
> 
> ...


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## Diabel (Mar 8, 2011)

You should not be getting any of that black shiny stuff, there might be an air leak in the chimney set up.
The encore will do just fine in this square footage. 
Had I known....I would not bother with CS cat....

Make sure to replace all the gaskets, easy job plus you will have no doubts come next Sept. Also, since you took out the refactory...take a strong light & look for gaps around the seams (specially the bottom corners). You could remove the inner side plates & do the same (10min job).

Good luck!


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

These are the pics looking up the flue. The first four I was laying down on the base of the fireplace. So the bottom of the pictures would be the part closest to the inside of the house, the top would be the side closest to the exterior of the house. 

So I'll try to explain the pics:

1. You can see the clay liners (6 3/4" x 11 1/4" inside measurement) in the chimney just past the smoke chamber. But this sort of explains the lack of draft from this set up! The tile liners actually start almost 4 feet from where the top of the stove would be! This is a huge are for the smoke to circle around! The total length from top of stove to daylight is 13 feet. This makes it about 9 feet of actual tile lined flue. Despite this poor set up, my Dutchwest heated the entire house more than comfortably, even with below zero temps. This says a lot about this stove. It is a mystery to me that some people can complain about the Dutchwests.

2. This shows the fireplace flue damper closed. You can sort of see by the moon shaped smoke stain on the bottom of the picture that the whole on the block off plate is too far forward. You can also see the shiny streaks on the flue damper. They are dry to the touch. 

3. You can sort of put the two pics 1+2 and see now on this that the flue is open. You can see the flaky spot that fell off.

4. You see the lintel where the block off plate connects from front to back. The center of the whole on the block off plate would be about at the center of the picture, just off to the left. 

5. This is a pic of the surface of the block off plate that would be visible if you looked up the fireplace. It is down on the bottom of the fireplace. You can picture how the back side of the plate would just need to flip up into the fireplace.

6. This is the block off plate ready to be lifted into the fireplace. Although, next time it goes up it'll have a pipe going into the tile lined portion of the chimney at least. 

So, now we all know how not to install a stove! Although it has gotten me through this winter it will not be operated this way again! I need at least a four to five foot piece of flex liner in order to come close to the manuals specifications. An SS liner would be ideal. This would still leave me three feet short of the recommended 16 feet required for either the Dutchwest or the Encore.  So an extension would have to go up on top.  Which only leaves me with a wind driven downdraft, caused by the giant pines on that side of the yard.  I could use a vacu stack cap, to solve this issue.


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## raybonz (Mar 8, 2011)

Wow Chris that looks like a chimney with no clay liner! Your chimney is huge for a wood stove and you definitely need a 6" insulated liner there.. I would think you have a lazy draft with that setup combined with less than seasoned wood adding up to creosote.. I think you'll see a big improvement with an insulated liner in that situation.. I know adding that insulated liner here made a world of difference even though I had a 7"x7" ID square liner and I feel you'll benefit in much the same way that I did here.. Improving the draft makes all the difference along with seasoned wood I will say that! Thanx for all the great pics too!

Ray


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## certified106 (Mar 8, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Wow Chris that looks like a chimney with no clay liner! Your chimney is huge for a wood stove and you definitely need a 6" insulated liner there.. I would think you have a lazy draft with that setup combined with less than seasoned wood adding up to creosote.. I think you'll see a big improvement with an insulated liner in that situation.. I know adding that insulated liner here made a world of difference even though I had a 7"x7" ID square liner and I feel you'll benefit in much the same way that I did here.. Improving the draft makes all the difference along with seasoned wood I will say that! Thanx for all the great pics too!
> 
> Ray



+1 on adding the insulated liner! 
I can't believe it actually drafts like that. If/When you put the liner in you will probably notice a huge difference in the stove performance. 
On a side note I'm extremely disappointed to not hear your review on the Defiant performance. I am still looking at a new stove and the 2in1 has my interest peaked quite a bit so I was looking forward to a comparison of the Dutchwest and Defiant side by side.


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## BrowningBAR (Mar 8, 2011)

certified106 said:
			
		

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He actually had a thread on this. At first he was disappointed in it, but he seems to be figuring it out and it is heating better. The thread is around here somewhere. I am also leaning towards a 2-in-1 Defiant to replace the Vigilant.


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

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Were you referring to the thread at the bottom of my signature Browning?


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## BrowningBAR (Mar 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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Actually, I was mistaken. I thought the "certified106" was referring to the previous poster, who I thought was "Wyld Bill". I thought Certified was asking about Wyld Bills review of his Defiant. I was lost.


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Wow Chris that looks like a chimney with no clay liner! Your chimney is huge for a wood stove and you definitely need a 6" insulated liner there.. I would think you have a lazy draft with that setup combined with less than seasoned wood adding up to creosote.. I think you'll see a big improvement with an insulated liner in that situation.. I know adding that insulated liner here made a world of difference even though I had a 7"x7" ID square liner and I feel you'll benefit in much the same way that I did here.. Improving the draft makes all the difference along with seasoned wood I will say that! Thanx for all the great pics too!
> 
> Ray



Ray, please scroll back a few posts and see what I added explaining the pictures.  The chimney is lined, but the tile liners don't start untill after the smoke chamber, about four feet up.  I knew it needed a liner, but it wasn't until today, after measuring to the liners that I got a better picture of how badly I needed it.


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

certified106 said:
			
		

> I can't believe it actually drafts like that. If/When you put the liner in you will probably notice a huge difference in the stove performance.
> On a side note I'm extremely disappointed to not hear your review on the Defiant performance. I am still looking at a new stove and the 2in1 has my interest peaked quite a bit so I was looking forward to a comparison of the Dutchwest and Defiant side by side.



I can't believe it either!  I had no problem with draft on the old cast iron box that was in there before, except for the windy downdrafts.  But, then again all the heat just went up the flue with that thing!  No baffles, no secondaries, a lot more heat for the great outdoors! ;-P   Again, this goes to show what a great stove the dutchwest has been for me.  I only had problems with smoke when it was windy.  This chimney also downdrafts when the wind gusts reach about 30-40.  

I'm disappointed about the cat on the Encore also.  The guy said it was six year old.  Which to me meant on the cusp or needed to be replaced.  But it is a lot worse off than the cat I just replaced on the DW.  Which makes it unworthy of burning since I have a great stove in the DW!


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

> Actually, I was mistaken. I thought the "certified106" was referring to the previous poster, who I thought was "Wyld Bill". I thought Certified was asking about Wyld Bills review of his Defiant. I was lost.



Hey Browning, do you have liners on all your chimneys or do you just have a piece of flex up to the tile liners?


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## raybonz (Mar 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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Sorry about that Chris I just rechecked that post.. You may find your downdraft problem goes away once you add that liner.. Once they get warm they draw really well! I would take a wait and see approach on that before I added a draft enhancer..Your DW is gonna kick butt once you get that draft squared away!

Ray


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## VCBurner (Mar 8, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Sorry about that Chris I just rechecked that post.. You may find your downdraft problem goes away once you add that liner.. Once they get warm they draw really well! I would take a wait and see approach on that before I added a draft enhancer..Your DW is gonna kick butt once you get that draft squared away!
> 
> Ray


I think once I line with a regular cap it may be enough.  Considering how well the stove did just being dumped into that huge space.  I should have bought the liner before purchasing the Encore, but I just could not pass on the deal.  I guess it remains to be a proven deal.


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## BrowningBAR (Mar 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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All three are lined. It was pricey, but I wanted to get it out of the way. If I had a stove that wasn't heating properly I wanted to be sure it was not due to a bad setup. I spent about $5,500 on the three liner installs alone. I think it was money well spent as I have seen way to many threads on here with issues related to a poor chimney setup.

Meanwhile, my three stoves only cost me $1,800 total.


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## raybonz (Mar 8, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

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Yup I feel with a new liner things will be different however that Encore refractory business is scary to me.. Sorry I have a hard time thinking that Encore will hold up with normal usage.. Meanwhile I feel your DW will run along happily no matter what the Encore does.. It's a shame VC decided that refractory was the way to go and I feel they are building in parts sales to ensure future profits.. Until proven otherwise that is how I feel.. Sorry as that is a beautiful stove Chris..

Ray


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## VCBurner (Mar 10, 2011)

Well, I didn't line the entire chimney yet! But, I put in a pipe extending 4.5 feet up from the top of the stove into the tile lined section of the chimney. It was a tough job. I got rid of the fireplace flue damper, by just removing a cotter pin and pulling it out completely. The chimney was swept from the top down and the smoke chamber was scraped with a stiff wire brush and the chimney brush connected to a rod, from the bottom up. What surprised me the most was the amount of debris that had gathered behind the fireplace damper. Altogether, I filled about a gallon of a 5 gallon bucket. Of that gallon, only a quart came from the chimney and smoke chamber. The remaining 3 quarts came from the smoke shelf behind the damper plate of the fireplace. I found a pine cone and even a couple of leaves in there! Every time I looked up into the chimney, it looked clear and clean. Little did I know there was a ton of stuff hidden in that shelf. I removed most of it by brushing it down with my hands, the vacuum got the rest out. In addition, I moved the whole on the block off plate in order to line it up with the chimney better. The first fire in the DW, or in the house for that matter, since February 26th is burning right now! I missed it so.

Here are some pictures I took after the clean up. They were all taken after the block off plate was placed back into the fireplace.

1. You can see the offset whole, patchwork on the tin and the pipe sticking down from the block off plate.
2. I tried to take this one so you could see up the pipe. 
3. get a better view of how the block off plate fits in the fireplace
4. a brand new 90 goes into the new pipe and is ready for a stove!
5. OK, I know how you guys like to look at the fire.  Post cleaning fires are the best!
6. Alright, I'll add one more, twist my arm!
Sorry I'm such a bad photographer!


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## begreen (Mar 12, 2011)

Get thee a liner in there. You and your family deserve safer heating.


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## VCBurner (Mar 12, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Get thee a liner in there. You and your family deserve safer heating.


+1 BG.  It'll be the first thing I get before next heating season.  Who knows now that I'm finally going back to work Monday, maybe it'll be a lot sooner than I thought.  I was laid off since November.  This is the third winter off in a row.  Things are tough in this economy even with in commercial construction.  Helps to have the union connections, otherwise I'd be doomed.  A big commercial construction company in this state has all but gone under, at least we union guys have an array of good companies to rely on.  Some of those non union guys are now on our side.  When the $#!/ hits the fan we all become sort of the same.  I guess I'm on the positive side of the coin, even though I lost my health insurance for six months last year and dental was gone six months before that for the first time in almost 10 years in the union.  Just got a letter in the mail the other day saying I'm qualified from 4/11 -9/11.  Wood stoves for me are a lifeline.  I would not be able to afford the oil to heat the house otherwise.  Since I moved in here in December of 2007 we have had the housing market collapse and things haven't been the same.  Last year things actually started to look up a little, as far as annual income.  My best year was 2007, 2008 was $25,000 lower than that of 2007.  Last year was about $15,000 less than 2007.  I hope to match 2010 this year, that would be on the plus side for us.  Things are looking up with this coming job, another Holy Cross new dorm building.  Thank God for the colleges.  They usually start picking up guys this time of year and the jobs last into the early Fall and often require lots of overtime to complete before the shool year starts.  It usually gives us a cushion to survive the winter off.  Hard to budget making a years wages in about 8 months.  Lots of hard work and little time to process wood!  Then it's back to idle in the winter.  Such has been the tale for the past 3-4 years.  I hope for the entire country's sake the economy picks up.  I think it can only get done by getting back to basics.  Bring the jobs back to the US.  Spread the wealth.

At least for now, she's heating well with the pipe extending into the tile liners. 
God Bless,
Chris


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## BrowningBAR (Mar 13, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> The chimney was swept from the top down and the smoke chamber was scraped with a stiff wire brush and the chimney brush connected to a rod, from the bottom up. What surprised me the most was the amount of debris that had gathered behind the fireplace damper. Altogether, I filled about a gallon of a 5 gallon bucket. Of that gallon, only a quart came from the chimney and smoke chamber. The remaining 3 quarts came from the smoke shelf behind the damper plate of the fireplace.



That seems to be about as much as I get from the Vigilant.


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## VCBurner (Mar 13, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

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Wow!  This chimney had not been cleaned since I moved in in 2007.  Of course, I burned about two cords in it as a fireplacxe the first winter.  The second and third winter, I had the Atlanta stove works old cast iron box in it.  Burned about 4-5 cords in it then.  This year, the DW created more build up due to some people, who I won't mention, trying to load wood into the stove with the damper down, YES the damper was down.  Wife and I were out and the babysitter tried to load the stove one time.  The other time it was my mother in law.  They were both experienced burners on non EPA stoves.  Both had operated thermostatically controlled Surdiacs.  Neither had ever operated an EPA stove and ended up clogging my cat!  It took a few times of really cranking up the temps to detox the cat each time.  I could only imagine the smoke that came into the house!  By the time I came home I could only smell smoke.  I told them both NOT TO TOUCH the stove.  They didn't listen.  But yours makes this much mess huh?!  No wonder you want to replace it.  The thing must chew through some wood no?


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## BrowningBAR (Mar 13, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> BrowningBAR said:
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Just to be clear, I was referring to the "gallon" part. Not "5 gallon".


Somewhere between this:





and this:





Which is interesting because when I go up to clean the chimney I can see a LOT of the stainless-ness of the liner when I clean it. Hardly looks dirty. I'll try to take some pics when I clean it this year.


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## VCBurner (Mar 13, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, I was referring to the "gallon" part. Not "5 gallon".
> 
> 
> Somewhere between a gallon and a quart.  Which is interesting because when I go up to clean the chimney I can see a LOT of the stainless-ness of the liner when I clean it. Hardly looks dirty. I'll try to take some pics when I clean it this year.


  Got ya!  When you put it this way doesn't sound bad afterall.  There's a lot that I did not get at in the smoke chamber, because it was tough to reach and I just got the surface.  It was a big improvement and looked a thousand times cleaner when I was done.  I could possibly get another quart out of that huge 4' tall funnel like smoke chamber.  It really surprised me though, how much was caught in the smoke shelf behind the old flue damper!  A charred pine cone and two oak leaves not to mention the burned up creosote and dust that gathered there.  It would seem to me they should build those with a downward slope that would cause things to slip down into the fireplace.  But your liner is most surely cleaner when you're done.  It helps to have the size brush that fits tighly in the space you're trying to clean.  Not possible in the smoke chamber of a fireplace, as I'm sure you've looked up there and seen for yourself! :gulp: It still amazes me how VC got the original stoves built so well that they are still popular today.


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