# I feel incredibly stupid asking this.But how do I identify wood?



## JoshF (Sep 7, 2008)

I have permission to cut up tops and leftovers from my neighbors property that was logged about 3 years ago. There is a lot of wood and most of it is quite dry. The bark is off or falls off as soon as you touch it and much of it is starting to develop splits in it from drying.

But I dont know what kind of wood it is or how to tell. None of has any sap or pine smell so that is encouraging but I hate to put a lot of work into cutting wood that should not be burned in my furnace.
 Im not even sure how how much it matters what wood I burn.

 Can anyone offer me some insight as Im confused.


----------



## sgcsalsero (Sep 7, 2008)

decent site below, Abor Day has a pamphlet (good for carrying) that ids common trees by Q&A;method (if compound leave turn to page 21; are the margin smooth? if so turn to pg 37, etc, etc.)

http://www.oplin.org/tree/


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 7, 2008)

If it is good and dry any wood will burn well. I dont know of any wood that is bad to burn if its less than 20-22% moisture ( other than pressure treated). even if its pine. Pine just burns faster than a hard wood would. If burned properly and not dampered down to the point of smouldering, pine wont leave creosote any more than any other wood will.Pound for pound any wood is as good as any other. Dont get too hung up on the exact species at least this first season. Dry wood is the key to good burning wood. If you will be burning this winter get all the well seasoned wood you can get and then get selective for the upcoming seasons. If equally dry, the heavier wood is denser and therefore more BTU's(heat). But heavy wood might just have more moisture in it if you dont know the moisture content.


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 9, 2008)

Oh one more thought....if the woods was logged and these are the tops I would thing that it is mostly hardwood. Loggers wouldn't be after junk when they cut the logs for the mill/veneer so the tops are prolly oak,maple,walnut. Cherry tops dont last long on the ground and rot pretty fast. after 3-4 years cherry tops would be pretty punky. Most pine that are cut dont have "tops" as such like hardwoods, and would hold some needles/be punky also I would think. What is growing in the area? I would think that the trees remaining were like the ones cut. So I would say get all you can and no worries. Even "junk" trees in loggers eyes make great firewood. Thinking hickory, beech, ash they dont have big $$$ veneer value but are tops for firewood. Even arborists would have trouble identifying 3 year down tops.


----------



## BurningIsLove (Sep 10, 2008)

churchie said:
			
		

> decent site below, Abor Day has a pamphlet (good for carrying) that ids common trees by Q&A;method (if compound leave turn to page 21; are the margin smooth? if so turn to pg 37, etc, etc.)
> 
> http://www.oplin.org/tree/



Does anyone know a good site that's similar to the above, but categorizes by grain, color, and bark type?  Most arbor sites use "live" signs to indicate the species of tree, like leaf & fruit type.  But when I get a grapple, all the branches/leaves have been removed as well as other indicators used by most sites.


----------



## 3fordasho (Sep 10, 2008)

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> churchie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Try this one:  http://www.forestry.umn.edu/extension/forest/firewoodID.html


----------



## EatenByLimestone (Sep 10, 2008)

If it looks like wood and is dry it should burn like wood.  I gather whatever I can and it keeps my family warm.   

If I pick up a few pieces of pine I just need to add a few more splits to the stove over the night.  

Matt


----------



## Cluttermagnet (Sep 10, 2008)

3fordasho said:
			
		

> BurningIsLove said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks very much! That's sure what I've been looking for. I had a lengthy go-round about whether I'd been given a half cord of Honey Locust or Black Locust. Had just about decided I had the Black variety. But now these photos of the heartwood and the great descriptions make it look like I have a thornless variety of Honey Locust. But mine differs from both pictures on the site. Confusing.


----------



## savageactor7 (Sep 10, 2008)

Josh a good rule of thumb is that if the dead wood still has some heft when cut into rounds chances are it'll make good firewood. But if you're scrounging any wood is better than no wood.


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 10, 2008)

Why would you need to know whether firewood is honey or black locust? Are you wanting to know just to learn different species or is there some wood stove technology that needs the correct species to burn at 100% eff-ency or something? The reason that most publications only identify species by bark AND leaves and not wood grain and heartwood is because that is the only real way to do it.You can guess at it by looking at the bark only or grain and heartwood but that's all it will be is a guess. And wood that has aged enough to loose the bark is even more difficult. Many species have the same bark pattern and can only be identified by subtle leaf and bud differences. I would like to meet the guy that can identify many ash, oak, elm, chestnut species just from bark/wood grain alone.


----------



## caber (Sep 10, 2008)

I scrounge a lot of fallen trees which are nearly impossible to ID because most don't even have the bark.  I have always broken them down to hardwood or softwood.  

Heavy = hard, Light = soft

Then I burn all of it, but I like to have 2 piles, hard and soft, so I know what to burn when.


----------



## downeast (Sep 11, 2008)

Glacialhills said:
			
		

> Why would you need to know whether firewood is honey or black locust? Are you wanting to know just to learn different species or is there some wood stove technology that needs the correct species to burn at 100% eff-ency or something? The reason that most publications only identify species by bark AND leaves and not wood grain and heartwood is because that is the only real way to do it.You can guess at it by looking at the bark only or grain and heartwood but that's all it will be is a guess. And wood that has aged enough to loose the bark is even more difficult. Many species have the same bark pattern and can only be identified by subtle leaf and bud differences. *I would like to meet the guy that can identify many ash, oak, elm, chestnut species just from bark/wood grain alone.*



Come on Downeast ( or anywhere) and walk some woodlands. Most loggers, arborists, firewood harvesters I know, and me, can identify by bark, by grain, by location in the woodlot ( dry, wet feet, open,etc....) , by smell, and how the wood cuts. Add to that that we cut mostly in the winter without leaves. Canopy shape is another identifier. There are some easy to use identifiers ( guidebooks) of species using " terminal buds": another technique, although most tree buds are too damn high up to see closely. 
Just takes some time working the woods. After awhile it is not a big deal.
What is difficult are closely linked species such as the Ashes: White, Green, Brown/Black.  Once you've cut some oaks, you know the pissy smell from yards away. Even long dead standing oaks smell like warmed over _____.


----------



## Dune (Sep 11, 2008)

The book, "A Reverance for Wood" by Eric Sloane (funk and wagnels) has many descriptions of wood variety, including color pictures of wood grain. It is not the end all- be- all, but it maybe be helpful, plus it is great reading.


----------



## Cluttermagnet (Sep 11, 2008)

Glacialhills said:
			
		

> Why would you need to know whether firewood is honey or black locust? Are you wanting to know just to learn different species or is there some wood stove technology that needs the correct species to burn at 100% eff-ency or something? The reason that most publications only identify species by bark AND leaves and not wood grain and heartwood is because that is the only real way to do it.You can guess at it by looking at the bark only or grain and heartwood but that's all it will be is a guess. And wood that has aged enough to loose the bark is even more difficult. Many species have the same bark pattern and can only be identified by subtle leaf and bud differences. I would like to meet the guy that can identify many ash, oak, elm, chestnut species just from bark/wood grain alone.


Yep, points well taken. Well, I'm just trying to learn. As it is, I'm pretty sure I have some type of Locust, but still not positive. But it was *very* heavy, even after three months+ on the ground and I'm pretty sure it is thornless Honey Locust. After 18-24 months seasoning, it will burn real good in my stove.

I see your point, there are some trees we are not going to be totally sure about the type, but they will burn just as good regardless. And if they are heavy, they are hardwood and have more BTU's. If they are lighter, they are soft wood like Pine or Poplar, and they have only about half the BTU's.

I was very happy and excited to get the Locust because I'm a noob and I'm still learning about everything. Free Locust is a good score, lots of BTU's. ;-)


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 11, 2008)

Yes cluttermagnet, locust is a fine burner, none better for those long night time burns. Its always good to learn which wood you are cutting and which ones burn better, which are better for shoulder season burns which are easy to spit and which are a bear. I was just saying that its gonna be real hard to differentiate species of oak or ash from one another from a long cut tree top or for that matter, grapple loads.



> Come on Downeast ( or anywhere) and walk some woodlands. Most loggers, arborists, firewood harvesters I know, and me, can identify by bark, by grain, by location in the woodlot ( dry, wet feet, open,etc....) , by smell, and how the wood cuts. Add to that that we cut mostly in the winter without leaves. Canopy shape is another identifier. There are some easy to use identifiers ( guidebooks) of species using “ terminal buds”: another technique, although most tree buds are too damn high up to see closely.
> Just takes some time working the woods. After awhile it is not a big deal.
> What is difficult are closely linked species such as the Ashes: White, Green, Brown/Black. Once you’ve cut some oaks, you know the pissy smell from yards away. Even long dead standing oaks smell like warmed over _____.



To answer you, Downeast are you telling me you can tell the difference between Shingle Oak, Laurel Oak, Burr Oak, Blackjack Oak, Basket oak, Nuthall Oak, Shumard Oak, Black Oak, Post Oak, all of which grow here in Michigan to some extent. not to mention red and white oak(those are pretty easy) and prolly another 1-200 more in the usa just by looking at the bark and shape of the tree? wow guess you folks down east are better at identification than us guys here in Michigan. Now I could swallow you can tell an oak from an ash from a maple in the woods,or maybe even a red oak from white or shingle oak.... but not be able to identify the EXACT species like a Shemard from a blackjack oak just from looking at the bark. same Be it for all the ashes, all the elms, the oaks, or the chestnuts. It just cant be done just from the bark or shape of canopy. Heck I can show you 20 different shapes and bark forms of the same species of tree, the exact same species, they are that broad in shape and color, bark form, all depending on growing conditions,wind, water, soil ect. ect.


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 11, 2008)

Oh, for anyone who wants to learn more, pick up an audubon field guide to eastern trees(or western trees for you folks out there.)its small and sturdy. And I think the best field guide out there. Keep it in the glove box of your wood getter. and then when you take a break, pull it out and do some field study and see whats growin.(and better yet, whats gonna be burnin') its a good book with color pics and great discriptions for identifying a lot of common species. Helps you learn the many differing species of trees and go one step up from " that is an oak and that is a maple". to that is a black oak and that is a sugar maple.


----------



## downeast (Sep 11, 2008)

Glacialhills said:
			
		

> Yes cluttermagnet, locust is a fine burner, none better for those long night time burns. Its always good to learn which wood you are cutting and which ones burn better, which are better for shoulder season burns which are easy to spit and which are a bear. I was just saying that its gonna be real hard to differentiate species of oak or ash from one another from a long cut tree top or for that matter, grapple loads.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who the hell cares about Shingle, Laurel, Blackjack or any species particular to your lot. We ain't there, we're here. A cutter wants and needs to know what is vital to the job, not some kind of computer oneupsmanship or virutal game. In Forestry we can always look it up if , and only IF, you have that need to be correct and academic for your little area. We are not impressed. Name one other pro in Michigan....one.
Stop swallowing...you could hurt yourself. We ain't got no stinkin "...20 different shapes and bark...."   And we don't give a ____.
What the H is a "Shemard" ?  Sounds like a USB .
JMNSHO


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 11, 2008)

Ya, I thought as much,  have a nice day.........


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 11, 2008)

Oh and for everyone that wants to learn, Shumard oak (Quercus shumardii) Genus is Quercus (means oak) Species is shumardii(guy who named it, Mr. Shumard im guessing) Shumard oak is one of the largest SPECIES in the southern red oak group. It is used widely for commercial lumber and other non vital things.It ranges from the mid-Atlantic coastal plain south to northern Florida and west to central Oklahoma and Texas. It is occasionally found as far north as southern Michigan or Pennsylvania.But for those forester's, Arborists and lumber men that really dont need or want to know, Its just another one of them thar pissy, smellin' oaken trees. Ain't they all the same?


----------



## Cluttermagnet (Sep 12, 2008)

Well, a huge old Red Oak was what started this whole wood burning adventure for me. We had one killed off by excavation, during the building out of the neighbor's lot next doors. Took it around 15 years to succumb to pests and disease after having its roots extensively damaged. Tough old tree. And yes, it smells a little skunky until it is completely dried out. Not a hateful smell, though, just a smell with a 'lot of character'. Heats my house real good. I can see how there must be a whole bunch of varieties within each major type, to really confuse things. At least in this case I'm quite sure of it's type (genus), if not the exact variety (species). I used to rake up its leaves in the fall. That tree was around 3-4 decades older than me when it came down, and it lived an interesting life along a rural farm lane at the edge where pasture and forest meet. Now I'm recycling it. I like the 'carbon neutral' aspect of that. And the heat! Who knows- maybe it's one of those shumardii. I live in the mid-Atlantic coastal piedmont region.


----------



## downeast (Sep 12, 2008)

Glacialhills said:
			
		

> Oh and for everyone that wants to learn, Shumard oak (Quercus shumardii) Genus is Quercus (means oak) Species is shumardii(guy who named it, Mr. Shumard im guessing) Shumard oak is one of the largest SPECIES in the southern red oak group. It is used widely for commercial lumber and other non vital things.It ranges from the mid-Atlantic coastal plain south to northern Florida and west to central Oklahoma and Texas. It is occasionally found as far north as southern Michigan or Pennsylvania.But for those forester's, Arborists and lumber men that really dont need or want to know, Its just another one of them thar pissy, smellin' oaken trees. Ain't they all the same?



I have Shumardii envy. Gee, who woulda known. Wowwww........


----------



## downeast (Sep 12, 2008)

Two classic guides that we use for understanding AND identifying trees and used in Forestry science:

Illustrated Guide to Trees and Shrubs ( ....Northestern US and Canada )  Arthur Graves
      Detailed guide to all factors for ID, winter and summer

A Field Guide to Trees and Shrubs  George Petrides (....all trees, shrubs, and woody vines in the northeastern and north central US and      southeastern and south central Canada ).

Concentrate on the major, needed species first, then the more exotic, esoteric species in your woodlot. Saplings can look like shrubs, and vines. There are many pocket guides for both winter and summer ID usually sold at Audubon or other  nature stores.
Most Quercus ID concentrates on differenciating the Reds and Whites only; all those others are smaller variations of these. Too small and rare for sawlogs, firewood, veneer.


----------



## BurningIsLove (Sep 12, 2008)

Glacialhills said:
			
		

> Why would you need to know whether firewood is honey or black locust? Are you wanting to know just to learn different species or is there some wood stove technology that needs the correct species to burn at 100% eff-ency or something? The reason that most publications only identify species by bark AND leaves and not wood grain and heartwood is because that is the only real way to do it.You can guess at it by looking at the bark only or grain and heartwood but that's all it will be is a guess. And wood that has aged enough to loose the bark is even more difficult. Many species have the same bark pattern and can only be identified by subtle leaf and bud differences. I would like to meet the guy that can identify many ash, oak, elm, chestnut species just from bark/wood grain alone.



Some of it is just plain curiosity.  Some of it is knowing when I have bucked the tree into rounds knowing how easily it will split.  Or how many BTUs it will produce when seasoned (yes, I know you can tell a great deal of that by its weight)

Another big part is conservations/future planning.  If I get a grapple or a tree from a nearby property, and that particular variety is consistently diseased/rotted, then when I am planting/cultivating trees on my own property to replace those that I cut down those are the species I'm not going to favor in my own property.  there is no sense cultivating or planting a species that is succeptible to various pests, soil conditions, etc locally in my neighborhood/property.  Or if its a pain to split, then also not likely going to be a favored species.


----------



## Cluttermagnet (Sep 12, 2008)

I appreciate all the book suggestions in this thread- thanks! I'm going to start looking and see what I can find. I do want to get a close look at any book before buying. The ones that focus only on foliage miss the mark. I want one that also shows some of the variations in the bark patterns and some cross cut shots, too. Bonus points for discussions about variations within species, uses of different tree types, and such. Sometimes the bark and leaves are long gone, but maybe the wood itself could still provide a positive ID. Will probably give myself at least one book for a Christmas present this year.

Most important, is it hardwood or softwood? Weight alone often tells that. Then, an ID allows a better guess about what seasoning time is needed (allowing for status: live cut, standing deadwood, etc.) Third is a truly specific, positive ID, even if it's only of academic interest. Most important is simply how to stay warm, of course. But I'm a curious type, too.

I'll be getting a moisture meter real soon. Should be a real useful tool, and they're pretty inexpensive. Higher internal moisture can fool you, especially with Oak, I hear.


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 13, 2008)

> [/qSome of it is just plain curiosity. Some of it is knowing when I have bucked the tree into rounds knowing how easily it will split. Or how many BTUs it will produce when seasoned (yes, I know you can tell a great deal of that by its weight)
> 
> Another big part is conservations/future planning. If I get a grapple or a tree from a nearby property, and that particular variety is consistently diseased/rotted, then when I am planting/cultivating trees on my own property to replace those that I cut down those are the species I’m not going to favor in my own property. there is no sense cultivating or planting a species that is succeptible to various pests, soil conditions, etc locally in my neighborhood/property. Or if its a pain to split, then also not likely going to be a favored species.
> 
> ...


----------



## downeast (Sep 13, 2008)

[quote author="Glacialhills" 
 There just isn't a way to tell 100% positive specie identity from bark and wood grain alone and can even be hard for a novice to tell the right genus. Experts know that they need to see bark,bud symmetry, and leaves to make a 100% positive specie id. Anyone that tells you otherwise, is well, I will just say better than the average bear at tree identification.

It is scary that in this era of budget cuts,when states are downsizing/ doing away with county ag agencies and foresters, so many *private foresters, that are supposed to be helping many small landowners manage their woodlots, Could care less about species id and wanting to know which species grow best,worst in a particular area.Which species are best to keep/grow for wildlife and so on.They seem to look at a land owners wood lot and see one thing... board ft,Only oak,maple,walnut and cherry trees, high grade, veneer logs and $$$ signs and dont care what any of the "junk" is growing beside them.I have only found one forester that would tell me this honest truth about the industry, but only if I never mentioned his name and he told me he would deny talking with me if I ever revealed what he said.And I have dealt with more foresters than most (25+). from many states.I have seen over and over woods that have been high graded, and owners grossly underpaid for their veneer grade timber, and have come to the conclusion: That almost all foresters are in bed with the loggers,and timber/veneer mills. Are not "independent" and do not have the land owners interest in mind when marking and bidding out woodlots.So Be diligent when hiring anyone to do work in your wood lot. You and only you are the best Stuart for the trees under your care. If you really care and love your woodlot, do yourself a favor and read some books and become your own forester, its not rocket science after all. Ok all you foresters out there, flame away.[/quote]*

Dumb statement and dumber.  :sick: 

Most professional Foresters we know, have used, are friendly with, WORK FOR THE LANDOWNER. It is always in the contract. They are paid BY THE WOODLOT OWNER. You may have run into one forester that was incompetent, but I doubt it. What's the Forester's state ID number ? Was he/she really a Registered or Consulting Forester, degreed, with references and experience ? Didn't think so. That fool statement is from the top of your head --as in: "this elevator doesn't go up". C'mon now. Your rant is : READY   FIRE   AIM. 

Forestry is a long course of university study, fieldwork, licensing, experience. Yale, U of Maine, Harvard............

I know no Foresters that are "in bed" with anyone but themselves, their spouses  %-P , their clients. Period. 

And who the H is "Stuart" ? This is not a Forester is he ? :lol:


----------



## wally (Sep 14, 2008)

my comment is that glacialhills is painting with a pretty broad brush.

i'm relatively confident that i can identify 90% of the logs produced in my area without the benefit of leaves, buds, twig pattern or branches.  in other words, logs, pulp sticks, cordwood, whatever in transportable form are things i can readily identify based on just the grain, color, bark, smell, rays (and other cell structures).

and for those few instances where there are some oddballs, i'll do my homework to be able to identify them on those particular jobs.

there's no real practical value to being able to differentiate the sub-family of oaks for cordwood purposes, other than to divide them into white/red.  i can identify all the chinkapin oak i'll ever see in new england.  same goes for laurel.  on the other hand, we do have white, swamp white, northern red, black, scarlet, pin, and chestnut oaks, which are differentiable "on the landing".  and for any species where the similarities are such that differentiation at the "log" level isn't possible, what's the difference? (for cordwood)  really?  silver maple will have virtually the same value as red maple for that.  same goes for black, green and white ash.  and yellow and black birch.  ad nauseum.  the point, though, is that i've already identified the standing trees prior to any harvest, so i KNOW which species are going to show up on the landing for each particular job.

i'm in bed with the mills and the loggers?  maybe you ought to do a little research about the subject before you go indicting me.

interestingly enough, on my in-law's lot in manchester, michigan, there seems to be only shagbark hickory, eastern white pine, sycamore, quaking aspen, weeping willow, sugar maple, black walnut, white ash, black cherry, red maple, red pine and american elm.  no oaks that i've seen so far.  and i've been looking for over 10 years.


----------



## downeast (Sep 14, 2008)

wally said:
			
		

> my comment is that glacialhills is painting with a pretty broad brush.
> 
> i'm relatively confident that i can identify 90% of the logs produced in my area without the benefit of leaves, buds, twig pattern or branches. in other words, logs, pulp sticks, cordwood, whatever in transportable form are things i can readily identify based on just the grain, color, bark, smell, rays (and other cell structures).
> 
> ...



Thx for the reality check Wally. You're some elegant about it...better than my post. :red: 
For those who don't know what Foresters do, Google or go to one of the universities with a Forestry dept. I still have a tough time identifying the Ashes here Downeast---with or without the guides. Eastern Amerindian basket makers are losing the Brown Ashes that are used for the art of basket making.
The Small Woodland Owners Association of Maine (SWOAM) is our timberland group.


----------



## wally (Sep 14, 2008)

to get to the OP's question, a good way to learn to ID wood is to learn to ID the trees local to your area.  once you are comfortable with recognizing the majority of local trees, you'll find that ID of "cordwood" etc. will be a lot easier, including older dead stuff.

it doesn't matter that i can ID doug-fir readily, i'm not going to find it very often in new england.  yes, it has been planted here, and i've found it on a few clients' properties, but it just isn't something that will show up in a log load very often (probably less than 1 in 10,000,000 loads in new england - heck, probably less often than that).

wally


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 15, 2008)

> Glacialhills - 10 September 2008 03:10 PM
> Why would you need to know whether firewood is honey or black locust? Are you wanting to know just to learn different species or is there some wood stove technology that needs the correct species to burn at 100% eff-ency or something? The reason that most publications only identify species by bark AND leaves and not wood grain and heartwood is because that is the only real way to do it.You can guess at it by looking at the bark only or grain and heartwood but that’s all it will be is a guess. And wood that has aged enough to loose the bark is even more difficult. Many species have the same bark pattern and can only be identified by subtle leaf and bud differences. I would like to meet the guy that can identify many ash, oak, elm, chestnut species just from bark/wood grain alone.



If the thread was read though I did ask why would you need to ID species for cordwood.Then Down east said he could ID species (not just Genus) just from bark and "smell". Which I dont think is possible.

So Wally, you dont believe that Land owners are, more often than not, under paid for their veneer? This is after hiring a licensed forester. And that on the whole, Wood lots are highgraded and left in unsustainable condition?again with a forester doing the marking.And the woodlot owners are left with a bunch of "cull" trees and un marketable species, with little timber for future harvests. And this can be Especially true when the land owner is not made aware/educated of the value of the timber and the unsustainable practices of high grading a smaller woodlot that are rampant in the logging industry. Why do loggers/mills have "cruisers" that constantly trespass, and solicit owners with offers of cash, and the private foresters "work with these same mills/loggers". When they should be warning the owners away from them if they were truly looking out for the owners that hire them.



> I have seen over and over woods that have been high graded, and owners grossly underpaid for their veneer grade timber, and have come to the conclusion: That almost all foresters are in bed with the loggers,and timber/veneer mills. Are not “independent” and do not have the land owners interest in mind when marking and bidding out woodlots.



I am sure there are good, hardworking foresters out there, But in my limited experience with 2 dozen or so foresters, Only two were concerned with more than $$$ and high value trees and did not even mention other less desirable species. The poster Downeast summed up that conclusion pretty well in his own words.





> Who the hell cares about Shingle, Laurel, Blackjack or any species particular to your lot. We ain’t there, we’re here. A cutter wants and needs to know what is vital to the job, not some kind of computer oneupsmanship or virutal game. In Forestry we can always look it up if , and only IF, you have that need to be correct and academic for your little area. We are not impressed. Name one other pro in Michigan....one.
> Stop swallowing...you could hurt yourself. We ain’t got no stinkin “...20 different shapes and bark....” And we don’t give a ____.
> What the H is a “Shemard” ? Sounds like a USB .
> JMNSHO



Now I dont know what his credentials are. But that same attitude is pervasive in the industry. I have seen multiple times a small woodlot/family farmer's woodlot practically "*****" after the loggers were through. and this is after the owner hired a forester to help him manage the woodlot,thinking that it would be properly harvested.After talking to them They said they were so distraught about it and saddened that their family woodlot was wrecked for their lifetime and most of their children's. This in my opinion is not in the owners best interest. Yes there are foresters that are working and being good stewards for other's woodlots. But, and again this is just my opinion, that number is rare compared to the numbers that do the mills/loggers bidding.


----------



## wally (Sep 15, 2008)

clearly, your experience with "20 or more" foresters differs from my own.  no doubt, there are foresters that do a poor job; all professions have individuals that are marginal.  i have zero information about the licensing requirements in the great state of michigan, or indeed if licensing is even required to practice in that state.  however, i do know what the education, work experience and licensing requirements are in northern new england states, and those requirements stipulate a significant part of the forester-client obligation and duty of care.

as in most transactions, it is buyer beware.  do your homework.  check references.  a forester (or anyone else), that constantly sells his/her clients short won't be in business very long.  fwiw, i don't advertise.  all of my jobs are obtained via word of mouth - completely based on client satisfaction and my reputation.

really, you don't need to quote your own previous posts as though they were someone elses.


----------



## downeast (Sep 15, 2008)

Now I dont know what his credentials are. But that same attitude is pervasive in the industry. I have seen multiple times a small woodlot/family farmer’s woodlot practically “*****” after the loggers were through. and this is after the owner hired a forester to help him manage the woodlot,thinking that it would be properly harvested.After talking to them They said they were so distraught about it and saddened that their family woodlot was wrecked for their lifetime and most of their children’s. This in my opinion is not in the owners best interest. Yes there are foresters that are working and being good stewards for other’s woodlots. But, and again this is just my opinion, that number is rare compared to the numbers that do the mills/loggers bidding. Quote from "GlacialTill" .

More Forest Gump ( sic ). These kind of Urban Myth, internet stories are filled with debris. So, here's the end game: some specific names of both the perpetrators you tar, and the so-called "victims"; the "*****", the "20 or more". One specific verified fact. 
Yes, there are unscrupulous cutters around. There are unscrupulous ______ ( fill in the blank ). What did you say you do for work ? And, doubt that there are licensed Foresters involved. Names ? You won't let go of your accusations, so give us specifics with footnotes. 
Glad to see you got "steward" right.   %-P  ;-)


----------



## glacialhills (Sep 15, 2008)

Why would I go and name names and companies, especially on a forum like this?I will just say that one company is a veneer mill in southern MI. and loggers near them. Not hard to find out the specific ones if you look.The list is short.The loggers with their "cruisers" ?Pretty much name one that doesn't high grade and take advantage of uneducated woodlot owners? that would be easier than listing the bad ones. As for the foresters, yes they all are licensed and accredited (or at least claim that next to their names). Take your pick in a list provided by state of michigan,indiana, ohio. Out of most listed I only dealt with two that followed that code that wally said they spent so much time at school learning.The others would not testify against 2 big mills, and multiply logging companies, Would not give estimates of value of veneer trees, or even worse, grossly under value said veneer to multiply owners. Mismarked/overmarked trees that were told them to not cut, marked trees on adjacent property owners land, and even go so far as to have cutters cut trees even when marked with "do not cut" written in red over mismark knowing that the trees were of such high value that is was , to them , worth the risk of getting sued. limiting bids to companies that they had preselected and/or work with daily. Do I need to go on? The bad apples in the business are, at this point, out numbering the good ones. This is not only my assessment of the industry. This is from recent surveys of owners asked. When a logger/forester can make hundreds of thousands of dollars off one unsuspecting small to medium landowners woodlot on lowballing the veneer walnut/cherry the temptation is just to great and regulations are rarely if ever enforced ie (triple damage law/ trespass law. contract violations. They play the law of averages. Out of 100 times they break the law, they might get prosecuted 2-3 times. and actually have to pay up once. you do the math. It pays to be crooked. And yes, in most professions the bad ones wouldn't be in business long, but for most people they will only have their woodlot logged once or twice in there lifetime. it's not hard to go under the radar if you dont know who is bad and who is good when you have "cruisers" show up unsolicited at your house with offers of cash. Or hire a "professional" to do it right, but have no way to check them out other than look at their credentials. I was told a lot of this from a practicing forester that was corroborated by 2 university forestry personal/high officials. But no I will not name names. I will say no more.


----------

