# New EVs for 2020



## begreen (Jan 25, 2020)

There will be 8 new EV options in 2020 and more in 2021. Here is the lineup so far.








						Top 8 New Electric Vehicles in 2020 - Charged Future
					

2020 will be the year of the EV. Look out for the Tesla Model Y, Rivian R1T & Ford Mustang Mach-E. Here are the top 8 new electric vehicles in 2020.




					chargedfuture.com


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## woodgeek (Jan 26, 2020)

Ah, they all look interesting to me.  I had not heard of the Next Gen Bolt before.   Hopefully they improve the fast charging speed above a max of ~70 kW for the Gen 1, esp with the advent of higher power CCS charging stations.  There was no engineering reason for such a big battery to be so limited....the rumor was that the bus wire from the connector to the pack was the limit.

Now I just have to see how I would pay for any of these things.... in the meantime, my 2015 Volt is humming along fine.


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## Ashful (Jan 26, 2020)

Interesting to see some more affordable options hitting the market.  I’m still reeling in shock from the “starting at $108,490” price for the Tesla Model X I shopped in the fall.  The competing gasser I bought in its place was nearly half that price, and frankly both nicer and bigger.  Tesla still has a prestigious badge and a superior charging network that will get them some premium, but they’re going to have to trim their pricing as some of this new competition catches up to them.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 26, 2020)

Great post BG, im always checking on these upcoming evs with a little size to them. Wonder why  the hybrids do not give their gasoline MPG figures. Must be nothing to brag about.  The pickup is still ugly,whats with those headlights?


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## jebatty (Jan 26, 2020)

Looks like all of the new entrants in 2020, except the Tesla and the Bolt, will have the attractive benefit of the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit, just as the BEV Bolt and Tesla had until their sales crossed the 200,000 vehicle limit, and that several of the new entrants are PHEV with very limited battery electric range, which still may be a big plus for a pure commuter-focused EV. The $7500 tax credit is a big deal, and as intended will encourage strong growth in EV sales. All will experience battery range reduction in cold climates, typically up to about 40%, and perhaps a bit more in the bitter cold periods experienced in northern Minnesota, where I live. The extent of range reduction is heavily impacted by temperature, wind, use of lights, heat. AC and other accessories, driving speed, and driving habits in general. All of these factors, plus lower operating efficiency, also impact ICE vehicles.

I hope all of these new entrants are successful and find room in the marketplace. Competition will be keen, and quality, dependability, and charging network availability will play a big role, as will exterior and interior design and overall functionality.

Being a month shy of a full two years of ownership of a Bolt, we have just over 24,000 miles accumulated. The Bolt has met all of the expectations and requirements we had which led to our purchase. With an advertised range of 238 miles, our requirement was dependable round-trip range of 150miles, summer and winter, without intermediate charging. This goal was met. The Bolt has performed flawlessly, required zero maintenance, (other than washer fluid and maintaining tire pressure), except to fix a leak in the window wash system which was faulty on delivery, and replacement of the cabin air filter due to dust/debris accumulation from normal use. The Bolt has surprising interior room, and the new 2020 Bolt promises even more as it moves from a hatchback design and into the small SUV arena. Almost all our Bolt charging is at home on a Level 2 charger with very limited use of public charging stations.

We are two months short of a full year of ownership of our Tesla Model 3, and now have 14,224 miles accumulated. The Tesla was intended to be our primary family driving car, with both local and long distance driving. We regularly, once a month or more often, use the Tesla for about a 400 mile round trip travel to visit family, as well as use the Tesla for all of my wife's local driving. Simply stated, the Tesla is an awesome vehicle: comfortable, secure, predictable, great road handling, and design and functionality which we find to be superb. In one word, the Tesla is smooth, all the way up to 100+ mph with certainly all the acceleration a person needs, and more than most people have experienced. The Tesla too has performed flawlessly with no required maintenance or repairs (other than washer fluid and maintaining tire pressure). Since the Tesla ("Tessa Rose") is my wife's car, I have to thank her for giving me plenty of opportunity to drive the Tesla, especially on road trips. I've never before had so much fun driving a car as I have had with the Tesla. The Tesla also is mostly charged at home on a Level 2 charger, but we use the Tesla SuperCharger network extensively on our over the road travels. SuperChargers are super convenient, located strategically along every route we have traveled, and extremely easy to use. SuperCharger availability is a huge plus for the Tesla.

We also own a 2007 Toyota Camry, equipped with a trailer hitch to pull a utility trailer or our small teardrop camper. Annual mileage on the Camry is less than 5,000 miles. We have owned Camrys since 1986 and they have been great cars. If Toyota would have had a capable BEV available in 2018 when we bought the Tesla, we most likely would have bought that vehicle. We were very disappointed, and continue to be disappointed, in Toyota largely ignoring the BEV market.


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## sloeffle (Jan 26, 2020)

jebatty said:


> We also own a 2007 Toyota Camry, equipped with a trailer hitch to pull a utility trailer or our small teardrop camper. Annual mileage on the Camry is less than 5,000 miles. We have owned Camrys since 1986 and they have been great cars. If Toyota would have had a capable BEV available in 2018 when we bought the Tesla, we most likely would have bought that vehicle. We were very disappointed, and continue to be disappointed, in Toyota largely ignoring the BEV market.


As usual, great post @jebatty about your EV experience. I _believe_ Toyota was / is putting a lot of money into hydrogen fuel cell cars. I'm guessing that is why they are late to the BEV game. Personally, I think they are betting on the wrong horse but I could be wrong.









						Toyota Passes On EVs In Favor Of Hybrids & Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles
					

Toyota's presentations at the e-volution event focused on a dual prong approach to alternative fuel vehicles. For the near term, Toyota will focus on extending its hybrid and plug-in hybrid electric vehicle technology into new segments, extending the technologies horizontally across its lineup...




					cleantechnica.com


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## begreen (Jan 26, 2020)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Wonder why the hybrids do not give their gasoline MPG figures. Must be nothing to brag about.


Probably because EPA testing had not been done yet.


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## begreen (Jan 26, 2020)

sloeffle said:


> As usual, great post @jebatty about your EV experience. I _believe_ Toyota was / is putting a lot of money into hydrogen fuel cell cars. I'm guessing that is why they are late to the BEV game. Personally, I think they are betting on the wrong horse but I could be wrong.
> 
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> ...


Toyota appears to be focused on Japan's future and the Japanese market. They are thinking long term. Infrastructure continues to grow there and other car companies are participating. 








						How Toyota is helping Japan with its multibillion-dollar push to create a hydrogen-fueled society
					

With its nuclear sector nearly defunct, Japan has set its sights on hydrogen to fuel its economy and end dependence on foreign oil and gas imports. Toyota is leading the charge to spark change with its hydrogen-fueled cars and trucks and efforts to help build hydrogen refueling stations.




					www.cnbc.com
				




A little teaser on a prototype hydrogen car that isn't from Toyota.








						'It's a no-brainer': are hydrogen cars the future?
					

Inventor Hugo Spowers has a dream: to replace today’s cars with his own hydrogen prototype. Is the world ready?




					www.theguardian.com


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## begreen (Jan 27, 2020)

GM announced today a commitment toward an all-electric future. 








						GM to invest $2.2B in Detroit to build electric vehicles
					

DETROIT (AP) — General Motors is spending $2.2 billion to refurbish an underused Detroit factory so it can build a series of electric and self-driving vehicles, eventually employing 2,200...




					apnews.com


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 27, 2020)

begreen said:


> Probably because EPA testing had not been done yet.


Pretty easy test to do and the Mfgs can certainly do their own. If the numbers were impressive they could certainly give an estimate.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 27, 2020)

begreen said:


> GM announced today a commitment toward an all-electric future.
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This is the future,i hope the govt never lets it get away to other countries like they have in the past.  With so much automation just around the corner we need everyjob we can get (or can hold onto).


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## begreen (Jan 29, 2020)

More info on the Polestar 2. Good looking car. 








						An All-Electric Un-SUV from Volvo? Sort of—Meet the Polestar 2
					

Volvo's experimental arm builds a Tesla fighter loaded with tech.




					www.caranddriver.com


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## Ashful (Jan 29, 2020)

begreen said:


> More info on the Polestar 2. Good looking car.
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Timing is everything.  Excepting the “vegan interior”, this could have been a good choice for us, but waiting for summer 2020 wasn’t an option in Dec’19.


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## woodgeek (Jan 29, 2020)

sloeffle said:


> As usual, great post @jebatty about your EV experience. I _believe_ Toyota was / is putting a lot of money into hydrogen fuel cell cars. I'm guessing that is why they are late to the BEV game. Personally, I think they are betting on the wrong horse but I could be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, the story largely goes back to an old engineering decision.  When Toyota was first thinking about hybrid cars like the Prius, they had to choose between the newer, less safe Lithium Ion batteries, with higher performance, and the older, safer but a lot heavier Nickel Metal Hydride batteries.  They did a LOT of expensive research on various chemistries, and finally decided that Lithium Ion was not safe enough for automotive applications, and then spent a bundle of getting NiMH batteries robust enough to work in the Prius (i.e. durability, cycles, assembly cost, etc.).

But that decision (for the Prius) forestalled the development of electric cars.  NiMH is really too heavy to allow a proper BEV.  The GM EV1 started with lead AGM batteries, and then the gen 2 version had NiMH batteries, and the rage/weight specs were not acceptable.

When Tesla and Nissan started building EVs, they went with the (now slightly more mature) Lithium tech.  Tesla went with a high performance, but also very flammable battery chemistry, and potted the cells in fire retardant foam (a design they retain to this day).  Nissan went with a lower performance, but inherently non-flammable chemistry they helped develop.

When Tesla and Nissan started to be successful, a lot of their sales were eco early adopters and cannibalized Prius sales.  And Toyota couldn't play in the EV game with their obsolete NiMH tech.  So Toyota actually ran anti-EV ads to get people to buy the Prius, arguing that it would be more convenient, since you would never need to plug it in!

Toyota corporate had their heads up their butts so long (like many 'incumbents') that by the time they figured out that lithium EVs were the future, they were at the back of the line.   So the **grudgingly** switched the batteries in the Prii to Lithium tech (bc its lighter and cheaper), and are still badmouthing lithium BEVs and hoping to leapfrog the competition to the next big thing .... Hydrogen, to get back on top.

Good luck with that Toyota!


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## Ashful (Jan 29, 2020)

woodgeek said:


> When Tesla and Nissan started building EVs, they went with the (now slightly more mature) Lithium tech...


Excellent post, as always, woodgeek.  I guess it comes back to what I said above, "timing is everything".


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## DBoon (Feb 1, 2020)

It's my belief that Japanese companies are so good at creating continuous, incremental improvements over a many year timeframe that they are bewildered by disruptive technologies. Furthermore, their companies are much more engineering-driven (as opposed to marketing-driven) and they are therefore very slow to pivot during technology shifts and not so good at recognizing the difficulty of human behavior or infrastructure changes.  

The fact that Toyota is still thinking about hydrogen fuel cells is completely mystifying to me. But if you can imagine a company run by a bunch of engineers that are pretty enamored with what they have invested their entire careers into, with little cultural incentive to speak up and advocate for change, a belief that every year they will make things 3% better, and sometime 20 years out their graph  shows the cost/benefit advantages of the technology they are working on versus their belief as to what competitive technologies will do, then you can understand why they are so locked in. Add to that some other part of the company that probably completely underestimates what it will take to get consumers to want to pour hydrogen into their vehicles or to get fueling infrastructure set up, and you can start to understand a company like Toyota. 

I say this as someone with a B.S.E.E. who now works in "marketing" and having worked with many Japanese companies over the years on development projects. 

The opposite of that is the stereotypical US company that underinvests in future technologies, innovation, or quality and over invests in marketing to maximize current year profits, and wonders why every year their sales or market share decline by 0.5%. The absence of any real leadership that thinks beyond how to get their bonus paid for the current fiscal year and probably having one too many bean counters involved in investment decisions doesn't help. Think GM of the 1970s-1990s. 

When you think of these two extremes, you can see how Tesla created a market opportunity for itself.


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## begreen (Feb 1, 2020)

Ironic that they are resisting disruption considering the Japanese have disrupted the audio/visual market repeatedly and the American automobile market since the 1980s and the Prius disrupted it again starting in 2004.


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## Ashful (Feb 1, 2020)

I think there are some pretty wild assumptions at work, here.  I'm no fan of Toyota, but I'd not be so quick to discount them, or assume I can suss out their motives with a little armchair reasoning.  This is a company with a remarkable history of making very smart decisions, for their long-term welfare.


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2020)

I think Toyota has wasted a lot of goodwill and brand value in being so slow to move into the EV market. When I heard and read about the Bolt, and even before looking at one, I went to our local Toyota dealer to see what was or soon would be available. Other than the Primus, not good on space and very limited all electric range, I told the dealer how disappointed I was in Toyota, particularly since  the Toyota Camry had been our car for 28 years. The dealer had no response.


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## begreen (Feb 2, 2020)

We sold our 2013 last fall and re-Volted to a 2018 Volt. Love it. Most of our driving is local and all-electric, but when we want to take a trip up into the mountains or to eastern WA or the coast it is without anxiety and additional hours of charging delay. That would not happen with a BEV yet. The charging infrastructure is still weak once one gets away from interstates. Toyota gets this. They are coming out with a new RAV4 PHEV with a 40mi range. I may be wrong, but I suspect this is going to be a winner for them. Had GM put a small SUV body on the Volt chassis they could have won during this transition period.


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## jebatty (Feb 2, 2020)

I agree that a PHEV can be a winner for many people, good for much of local city use all-electric, and good for travel and longer commutes. But, it would not work for us. The 150 mile round trip ability makes all-electric for the great bulk of our "local" rural driving, and this is what the Bolt does, accounting for a 40% reduction in range in our cold, snowy MN winters.

And the Tesla with the 300+ mile extra range (allowing 40% reduction in winter) now also covers our trips to see family in Minneapolis/St. Paul -- all the way there with surplus, SuperCharger recharge for the trip home. And so far it also, with SuperCharging, has covered easily our longer trips.

Alas, we still need the ICE, a 2007 Camry with trailer pulling ability for our boat and small teardrop camping trailer.


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## Ashful (Feb 2, 2020)

begreen said:


> We sold our 2013 last fall and re-Volted to a 2018 Volt. Love it. Most of our driving is local and all-electric, but when we want to take a trip up into the mountains or to eastern WA or the coast it is without anxiety and additional hours of charging delay. That would not happen with a BEV yet. The charging infrastructure is still weak once one gets away from interstates. Toyota gets this. They are coming out with a new RAV4 PHEV with a 40mi range. I may be wrong, but I suspect this is going to be a winner for them. Had GM put a small SUV body on the Volt chassis they could have won during this transition period.


Agreed.  I just bought a new car yesterday, another big V8 gasser, because I still care more about my wallet and convenience than being virtuous.   But I was looking hard at PHEV’s leading up to the final decision.

The trouble for those of us who would like to make the transition, but haven’t completely devoted our lives to environmentalism, is:

1.   PHEVs are clearly the technology least disruptive to ones lifestyle, but they nearly double the cost of the vehicle in higher-end full-size categories.

2.  Lack of dealers close to our house with any good BEV or PHEV options, even if I were willing to spend nearly double for one.  By “good”, I mean full-size sport/luxury vehicles I’d actually be willing to drive, not some econobox (eg Volt or Bolt) I’d have driven in college.

3.  Neither my wife’s employer nor mine have BEV charging stations.  This new vehicle is for my wife, who has a 4-hour commute for work.  The hotel where she stays for work also lacks BEV chargers, but I suspect that may change soon.  

4. Running another 220V line to the garage where I park this vehicle would be expensive and inconvenient. See PHEV comment no.1 above.

I see us still being at least 3 years out from resolving most of these issues, excepting perhaps the additional cost applied to the luxury brands, but do believe we will get there.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 2, 2020)

I'm waiting for something more rugged like a Wrangler or even just like an electric Subaru Crosstrek XV. My wife and I are looking at possibly buying a new car in a year or two and really want electric, but we don't even have a place to plug a car in, yet. I have a Miata living in a shed in NC that I want to bring up to Maine to become an electric rally car. Even if we had a garage to plug our car into the market just doesn't have an affordable EV that can put up with Russian quality roads or a firebreak road.


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## DBoon (Feb 2, 2020)

begreen said:


> Ironic that they are resisting disruption considering the Japanese have disrupted the audio/visual market repeatedly and the American automobile market since the 1980s and the Prius disrupted it again starting in 2004.


Not so ironic when you think how little time it took for Apple to make Sony nearly irrelevant. And as the world moved to digital recordings, how all Japanese companies sat on the sideline and watched that obliterate their businesses while others capitalized on the digital shift (e.g. Netflix and Amazon for movies, Apple and Spotify for music) that made playback equipment obsolete. 

In my opinion, the Prius is the classic example of incremental improvements. While it sold very well (and I'm sure they made a lot of money off of it) and was very reliable (Toyota's key strength), it has to be the least inspiring car in the world to drive. We test drove one when my wife needed a new car - it's just about the most dispiriting experience in the world to drive in terms of acceleration and responsiveness. It was engineered for one thing, it seems - 50 mpg. Jeez, I got almost that driving a $20k Chevy Sonic on the highway and I had a lot more fun doing it. And the Bolt or Tesla is an order of magnitude more fun than that. My wife ended up buying a VW Golf TDI (54 mpg highway), and replacing it after the recall with a VW Golf gas engine (42-44 mpg highway). I've read that Prius sales are now half of what they were at their peak, despite a variety of new models. 

Now Toyota is finally getting into plug-in hybrids about 10 years after others, and just in time for a mass-market shift to BEVs. OK, I admit, we are still a few years away from BEVs being 10% of the market, and I won't count Toyota out. At some point, they will have a full BEV vehicle(s) but by the time they do, they will again be followers. They are very conservative in bringing new technology to market (which is probably why their reliability is so good), but BEVs make it a lot easier for any manufacturer to have high reliability (fewer moving parts) so Toyota's key differentiator will not be so differentiating in the future. Then what? They will be seen as behind the times with nothing any better than what other companies make.


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## DBoon (Feb 2, 2020)

jebatty said:


> I agree that a PHEV can be a winner for many people, good for much of local city use all-electric, and good for travel and longer commutes.


Also agree. Two of the four EVs owned by people I work with are PHEVs. Clearly, there is a market here. The people who have them like them and I think they are good options for many people and they cost a lot less today than full BEVs and deliver a lot of the benefits of a full BEV to the people that own them.  But I think the PHEV market will peak and decline pretty quickly as BEVs have many of their cost, range and charging issues resolved in the next 10 years. 

For instance, a year ago I couldn't have driven my BEV to Southern Virginia to visit my parents due lack of DCFC installations. Now, there have been three DCFCs added at key locations in the last year. What was not an option for me one year ago is totally doable for me today. This trend is only going to accelerate. And if you own a Tesla, this is already a non-issue for you.


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## DBoon (Feb 2, 2020)

Ashful said:


> Agreed. I just bought a new car yesterday, another big V8 gasser, because I still care more about my wallet and convenience than being virtuous.


I can't argue with this and Ashful is 98% of the market. His hurdles are the market hurdles that BEVs and PHEVs have to overcome. 

I do believe that in 3 years, we'll see many of these market hurdles get a lot lower. Probably the last hurdle to lower will be the existing dealer networks who seem to be resisting where the market is going. It will be interesting to see how long that lasts. This may be what proves to be the fatal flaw for existing car companies - intransigent dealers that they have no control over - and the big opening that companies like Tesla or Rivian or others exploit to build their market share. It makes you wonder why GM wouldn't pull a Saturn play and build a whole new brand and dealer network/selling model dedicated to their BEVs just to do an end-run around those who cannot get on-board the market shift.


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## Ashful (Feb 2, 2020)

Thanks for not coming down too hard on me, DBoon.   I didn’t feel great about the decision, but in the end I had to go with what was most practical.  I will be due for a new sedan in 2026, and a new truck in 2027, and fully expect both will be EV’s, but only time will tell...


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## DBoon (Feb 2, 2020)

We all write the equation differently. For me, the equation balances today - about even money over the life of the car with performance and environmental benefits to boot. Others who drive less and have different needs or aren't willing to deal with some of the sacrifices (e.g., range) will see things differently. It's obvious that the latter is the bulk of the market today. We'll see where it goes five years out.


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## SpaceBus (Feb 3, 2020)

After reading about Toyota being heavy into HFC and this: https://cleantechnica.com/2020/02/0...e-hydrogen-in-natural-gas-out-eventually/amp/ 

It got me wondering why hydrogen isn't used as an ICE fuel for near zero emissions and a renewable fuel source that returns to its original state after combustion. This would even utilize the current infrastructure. Everything will get a supercharger, but that's pretty cool. 

This link leads PDF of a paper about Hydrogen as an ICE fuel: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjANegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw3y6VQJfON-OPuF8_QP3ac2


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## jebatty (Feb 3, 2020)

At a Superbowl party last night, during the pre-game, I had an interesting conversation with a  person who in the past I could barely talk with due to politics. He is a person who is quite an inventor of some very interesting things but who is having great difficulty breaking into the market on a very usable product due to kickback from those in the market who would be threatened by his inventions. During the discussion I brought up the saga of EVs and likened their slow penetration in the market it to his experience on the invention. He saw the parallel quickly, and then stated that EVs are here to stay and will continue to grow rapidly in the market.


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## begreen (Feb 3, 2020)

DBoon said:


> We all write the equation differently. For me, the equation balances today - about even money over the life of the car with performance and environmental benefits to boot. Others who drive less and have different needs or aren't willing to deal with some of the sacrifices (e.g., range) will see things differently. It's obvious that the latter is the bulk of the market today. We'll see where it goes five years out.


Yes, it is an investment that not only reflects one's personal lifestyle choices, but in our children's future. The decision to be a bit more economical and energy-efficient matters on the individual level just as much as it matters on the corporate level. It's a small price to pay now, vs a much greater cost tomorrow.  

Emissions are the reason for climate change. Reducing those emissions is the responsibility of all of us. Change doesn't happen without a public attitude change. Politics won't change this problem until we change. In a consumer society this change starts with changing our purchasing habits. Every purchase is a vote.


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## P51mustang (Mar 7, 2020)

Some folks in the automotive industry surmise that Toyota is looking way out into mid century with so much money and effort being placed into hydrogen fuel cell technology.   Not so much for the North American market (due to vast infrastructure issues ) but potentially Europe and certainly for Asia.  

Personally I'm awaiting the first Hybrid and/or all electric 1/2 ton pickup truck.  Given Ford is soon to deliver just such a vehicle and the Dodge Ram has an optional electric battery coupled with a gas engine that increases fuel economy significantly, more players may enter the field soon.

I live in very cold and snowy upstate, NY and use my pick up for things trucks were built for back in the day and so hope to go fully or all electric very soon.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 7, 2020)

P51mustang said:


> Some folks in the automotive industry surmise that Toyota is looking way out into mid century with so much money and effort being placed into hydrogen fuel cell technology.   Not so much for the North American market (due to vast infrastructure issues ) but potentially Europe and certainly for Asia.
> 
> Personally I'm awaiting the first Hybrid and/or all electric 1/2 ton pickup truck.  Given Ford is soon to deliver just such a vehicle and the Dodge Ram has an optional electric battery coupled with a gas engine that increases fuel economy significantly, more players may enter the field soon.
> 
> I live in very cold and snowy upstate, NY and use my pick up for things trucks were built for back in the day and so hope to go fully or all electric very soon.


GM and I think Chysler used to offer hybrid 1/2 ton trucks.


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## begreen (Mar 14, 2020)

General truck talk really should go to another non-EV thread.

EDIT: Posts moved to new thread. Thanks Ashful.


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## Ashful (Mar 15, 2020)

begreen said:


> View attachment 258224
> 
> General truck talk really should go to another non-EV thread.


Here you go:






						General truck talk
					

Mod note: Posts moved to General Truck Talk from EV thread  Ill be holding back as most of these things depreciate rapidly.  I dont think ill ever buy a Brand new vehicle again.  Ill jump in after the first few yrs of beta testing and free falling depreciation are up. That is if the Corona virus...




					www.hearth.com


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## P51mustang (Mar 15, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> There is almost nothing the same between an 09 and a 2020 F150. Engines, transmissions, ECM, Body, frame have all changed.
> 
> The biggest engine offered in 09 was the 5.4 at 320hp. For 2020 the 2 bottom tier engines the 3.3 V6 at 290hp and 2.7ecoboost at 325hp offer similar power, payload and towing to what an 09 5.4 had.
> 
> ...




I stand corrected and thanks for the insight.  It seems there was significant redesign.  Do you have any knowledge or insight as to the forthcoming fully electric F-150?  You seem pretty knowledgeable about the Ford pick-ups and so any info. on the electric would be greatly appreciated.


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## begreen (Mar 15, 2020)

It's mostly just chatter and speculation about the new F150EV features. Ford took out a patent for a front "frunk", which can be accessed without opening the hood.








						Electric Ford F-150 Could Be Here as Early as 2021
					

As Ford prepares to get the electric version of its top seller out on the streets, it's working on educating the public about EVs.




					www.caranddriver.com
				








						Ford F-150 Electric Archives
					






					electrek.co
				




It looks like they have beefed up the frame too.








						Electric Ford F-150 Patent Reveals Big Range, Strong Frame Planned
					

A new patent application from Ford shows a new crossmember battery packaging design that adds strength and flexibility.




					www.motor1.com


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## ABMax24 (Mar 15, 2020)

The thing I'm really concerned for the EV F150 is the ability of Ford engineers to think outside the box. Peterbuilt built an electric semi, but they decided instead of using direct drive motors to the axles to run the motors through a traditional auto shifting manual  transmission with an automatic clutch, I understand the need for low end pulling torque but surely they could have come up with a better solution.

In so many ways EV's need clean slate thinking, not adaptations to existing designs. But regardless of the outcome good on Ford for making the jump to EV's, late is better than never.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 15, 2020)

ABMax24 said:


> The thing I'm really concerned for the EV F150 is the ability of Ford engineers to think outside the box. Peterbuilt built an electric semi, but they decided instead of using direct drive motors to the axles to run the motors through a traditional auto shifting manual  transmission with an automatic clutch, I understand the need for low end pulling torque but surely they could have come up with a better solution.
> 
> In so many ways EV's need clean slate thinking, not adaptations to existing designs. But regardless of the outcome good on Ford for making the jump to EV's, late is better than never.


I felt like hub mounted motors were the future, but the unsprung weight is enormous. Keeping the drive motors held by the suspension is an enormous advantage. I think Musk is right to try and challenge the age old pickup truck shape, but his cybertruck seems to have a lot of wasted potential in design as well. I probably can't think outside the box enough to come up with a better idea.


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## Redbarn (Mar 21, 2020)

This week we have used our electric BMW I3 exclusively and despite rapidly falling gas prices, won’t use our ICE cars.
Why ?
We can charge at home and do not have to use potentially biologically harzardous gas stations.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 21, 2020)

Dino juice $1.99 Today ,been awhile since it was that cheap in PA.


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## SpaceBus (Mar 22, 2020)

Redbarn said:


> This week we have used our electric BMW I3 exclusively and despite rapidly falling gas prices, won’t use our ICE cars.
> Why ?
> We can charge at home and do not have to use potentially biologically harzardous gas stations.


This is a time I wish for an electric car/tractor.


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## P51mustang (Mar 22, 2020)

Redbarn said:


> This week we have used our electric BMW I3 exclusively and despite rapidly falling gas prices, won’t use our ICE cars.
> Why ?
> We can charge at home and do not have to use potentially biologically harzardous gas stations.




Good for you.  Even before Covid-19 arrived on the scene I'd become a bit more mindful of the unhealthy atmosphere that comes with the typical gas station.  From the minor fuel spills found on the concrete pads around pumps, to the unsanitary conditions on the pump handles, number pads, etc.... I'm by no means a clean freak, but it's amazing how unhealthy gas stations really are.  

Not to mention the nicotine addicts I see lighting and toking up cigarettes while pumping gas into their vehicle while not realizing the danger they're putting themselves and others into.  All because they can't wait 15 minutes to get their next fix.  Most walk away from the pumps but some think nothing of sparking one up all while engulfed in a vapor cloud of gasoline.


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## P51mustang (Mar 22, 2020)

DBoon said:


> I can't argue with this and Ashful is 98% of the market. His hurdles are the market hurdles that BEVs and PHEVs have to overcome.
> 
> I do believe that in 3 years, we'll see many of these market hurdles get a lot lower. Probably the last hurdle to lower will be the existing dealer networks who seem to be resisting where the market is going. It will be interesting to see how long that lasts. This may be what proves to be the fatal flaw for existing car companies - intransigent dealers that they have no control over - and the big opening that companies like Tesla or Rivian or others exploit to build their market share. It makes you wonder why GM wouldn't pull a Saturn play and build a whole new brand and dealer network/selling model dedicated to their BEVs just to do an end-run around those who cannot get on-board the market shift.



I wonder if some of the new start up companies that promise a new car buying experience (For example, Carvana) will ultimately lead to an increase in the purchase of more electric and/or hybrid vehicles.  

Given the drop in gas prices and the economic chaos around us, maybe the shift will be delayed further, but eventually the traditional existing dealer networks, it would seem to me, will get on board or be left behind.


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## Ashful (Mar 22, 2020)

P51mustang said:


> Good for you.  Even before Covid-19 arrived on the scene I'd become a bit more mindful of the unhealthy atmosphere that comes with the typical gas station.  From the minor fuel spills found on the concrete pads around pumps, to the unsanitary conditions on the pump handles, number pads, etc.... I'm by no means a clean freak, but it's amazing how unhealthy gas stations really are.
> 
> Not to mention the nicotine addicts I see lighting and toking up cigarettes while pumping gas into their vehicle while not realizing the danger they're putting themselves and others into.  All because they can't wait 15 minutes to get their next fix.  Most walk away from the pumps but some think nothing of sparking one up all while engulfed in a vapor cloud of gasoline.


I recently started carrying disposable mechanics nitrile gloves in all vehicles.  Don the gloves before I get out of the car, and dispose of them when I’m done.

I used to work at a gas station, thru high school, paid for my first car and my auto insurance with that income.  Saw a few accidents during the few years I was there, and one was indeed a smoker going up in flames.  The amusing (almost karmic) thing about that one was that because it was summer and I had the store doors propped open, I had just watched and heard him look at our “No Smoking” sign and make some comment about the stupidity of that sign, mere seconds before he was in the middle of a fireball.  Pure Darwinism at work, if there ever was such an immediate example of that.

That was not the worst accident I saw there, though.  An old lady mistaking her accelerator for the brake pedal, behind the wheel of a 500 cid Cadillac did far more damage to far more property and people.


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## begreen (Mar 22, 2020)

Closing thread.  Once again it's wandered off into the weeds.


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## begreen (Jul 3, 2020)

The last ICE Volkswagen just rolled off the line at their Zwickau plant. It will produce only EVs from now on. 








						Volkswagen factory produces last ever combustion engine car, shifts to EVs only
					

Volkswagen's Zwickau factory produces its last ever combustion engine vehicle, closing a 116-year chapter on fossil-fuelled cars and switching to EV production, only.




					thedriven.io


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## begreen (Jul 3, 2020)

Meanwhile, down under hybrid and EV sales are surging ahead.









						Electric and hybrids shine amid gloom of faltering fossil-fuel car sales
					

Sales of electric cars in Australia continue to shine amid petrol and diesel downturn, and as Mercedes electric overtakes Tesla Model X.




					thedriven.io


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