# My roof is perfect for solar but my electric bills are low. Worth it?



## Brian26 (Dec 6, 2015)

I have a perfect setup for solar panels. Brand new roof that is facing directly south and gets full sun almost all day with no trees.

Electricity in CT is expensive. I have read we are in the top 4 as having the most expensive prices. My bills are usually under $100 and I get an energy report from my utility that I am 1% more efficient than my average neighbors. . I would love to take advantage of having a perfect roof for solar but is it worth it?


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## Deezl Smoke (Dec 6, 2015)

At only 100 bucks a month, unless it is something you just plain want to do for piece of mind and/or your children's future, you'd have to be a very good shopper to buy a system to compete with that. But 428 kwh is a small enough system to be an easy setup.

 Have you read jebatty's thread below? I have'nt made it all the way thru the thread yet as it is quite a long one with lots of great info to absorb, but I think there is mention of many of the costs and rebates etc.


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## Former Farmer (Dec 6, 2015)

Depends upon how your utility handles excess generation.  Do they pay you for excess at a very low rate (like .03 per kwh) than you have to buy back at a high rate (your current rate)?  Many different ways for the utilities to make excess generation profitable for them and not for you.  You will have excess generation with almost any system you put in.  Producing more electricity than you are consuming at any given time.


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 6, 2015)

Going to go with no on this one. Not a fan of drilling all those holes in a roof either. Not for 100 bucks a month especially


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## woodgeek (Dec 6, 2015)

I think the free variable is the size of the array.  If your resource is good, net metering is aok, and the elec is expensive, it seems like it would be a good investment if you got a decent quote.  IF you don't use a lot of juice, quote a smaller system.

Personally, I would consider future demand if you grew your family, your kids got older (i.e. teens), you wanted to get an EV, etc.
The fed incentive may expire in 2017, so this might be a local minimum in costs.


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## Brian26 (Dec 6, 2015)

Former Farmer said:


> Depends upon how your utility handles excess generation.  Do they pay you for excess at a very low rate (like .03 per kwh) than you have to buy back at a high rate (your current rate)?  Many different ways for the utilities to make excess generation profitable for them and not for you.  You will have excess generation with almost any system you put in.  Producing more electricity than you are consuming at any given time.



Never thought about looking into the excess rates but I found this document. It looks like you are correct and they only pay .03 kwh. Though I am not sure of exactly what these numbers mean. Probably not worth it but I am going to crunch some numbers further I may just call a solar company in for free consultation and see what they say.


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## Deezl Smoke (Dec 6, 2015)

Brian26 said:


> Never thought about looking into the excess rates but I found this document. It looks like you are correct and they only pay .03 kwh. Though I am not sure of exactly what these numbers mean. Probably not worth it but I am going to crunch some numbers further I may just call a solar company in for free consultation and see what they say.
> 
> View attachment 168712



 If you do, and decide to go solar, would you please share the info here? I use even less than you at 250-300 kwh, but would like to go solar for a percentage of my usage that I consider recreational or non critical. I doubt I will ever be completely off grid unless I find a gal with similar interests to share the lifestyle with.


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## Former Farmer (Dec 6, 2015)

Does your utility require 2 meters for customer generation?   Mine does.  If I generate more than what I use, it accumulates on a second meter and standard usage accumulates on the first meter.  

If you only need one meter, it might be okay.  If you generate excess, it might count backwards on the meter and standard usage would count forwards.  If this is the case, your excess would be at the same rate of your usage. 

Don't get me wrong, I am all for solar and renewable energies.  I have over 10kw installed myself.   But it seems that the utilities are getting the public service commisons to side with them the majority of the time in regards to customer generation.  If I were to install a new system today, I probably wouldn't put in such a large system and would know exactly the what the utility's rates / structures are.  When I installed my system, my utility bought back the excess at the same rate as what I pay.  Great deal.  Now, they buy back at wholesale rates and charge you normal rates.  Remember I have 2 meters, so there is no credit for excess that would be used by me at a different time during the month.  Sell back to them low, buy back from them high.  Not a good deal.


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## DBoon (Dec 6, 2015)

Hi Brian26, in terms of "financial payback", this can be easily calculated if your utility supports yearly net metering.  If you utility does not support yearly net metering, it gets a lot more complicated.  CT electricity prices are very high, so the financial payback will be quicker.

A 400-500 kWh load per year is a good size demand for a solar PV system.  You can easily handle that with an ~5kW system installed in CT on a roof, and the cost of such a system will be reasonable, and this is a typical size system installed.  If you were only looking at a 2kWh system, many installers will likely not be interested (based on an earlier experience I had with a small house and small roof area).  If you put in a larger system, you may then have the ability to add a load that you maybe always wanted (e.g. electric stove instead of gas/propane stove) or give you an amenity that wasn't possible before (e.g. mini-split heat pump for cooling, and some shoulder-season heating).  

If your decision isn't made purely on economics, but on a decision to "do the right thing" for whatever reason, then if you can afford it, just do it.  My personal decision to install a 5.3kW ground-mount system wasn't based just on payback time - I've wanted to do this for 20 years and finally had the location to allow it.  My financial payback is likely around 15-18 years, but I don't care.  I have what I want, I could afford it, and I feel that I am doing the right thing.  My money is better spent on that than on a sports car or something like that (my opinion).  After incentives, mine was about $3/watt installed (with a ground-mount, which is more expensive).  

I haven't checked recently but it would not shock me if roof-installed solar PV systems are going in for $2/watt or less nowadays after incentives.  The 30% federal tax credit incentive is eliminated after 2016, so that might be reason to move sooner rather than later.  

I would encourage you to investigate this in detail now and think about what you want to do for the next month or two, and line up some installers for a spring install, if this is what you want.  Don't want until the fall of 2016 - the installers will be plenty busy by then.


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## lml999 (May 17, 2016)

We're about to pull the trigger on a 12.5 KW system on Cape Cod. We want to make sure that we get our system installed this calendar year, so that we're assured of getting both the federal and state tax credits, and stay in the SREC 2 program.

With a low interest solar loan, we will be cash flow neutral between the monthly loan payments and the SRECs. Then we get free electricity on top of that. Plus, with EverSource on the Cape, we can bank our excess generation or even "gift" it to another subscriber in the area...and then work out a side arrangement for reimbursement with them. Never heard of this before...

Loan and SRECs both run out in ten years. System is guaranteed by the panel manufacturer for 15 years beyond that...

I'd suggest that you meet with a couple of local solar providers and work the math with them. Public policy is a fascinating thing.


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## peakbagger (May 17, 2016)

What do you use for heat? Running solar to build up summer surplus and matching it with minisplit is a nice option. I now only run my wood boiler during peak cold weather and use the minisplit for shoulder seasons.


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## jebatty (May 17, 2016)

The federal 30% tax credit is good through 2019 and then scales back in steps.
http://energy.gov/savings/residential-renewable-energy-tax-credit

Solar-electric property

30% for systems placed in service by 12/31/2019
26% for systems placed in service after 12/31/2019 and before 01/01/2021
22% for systems placed in service after 12/31/2020 and before 01/01/2022
There is no maximum credit for systems placed in service after 2008.
Systems must be placed in service on or after January 1, 2006, and on or before December 31, 2021.
The home served by the system does not have to be the taxpayer’s principal residence.


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## EatenByLimestone (May 17, 2016)

Working on conservation was more important for us.  Now it flat out wouldn't make sense to grid tie.  Maybe go off grid at some point, but not now.  My roof slope is 9/12 and faces directly south so its nealy perfect too.

I looked into heating (or preheating) water with PV, and that still holds promise as it is my greatest energy use outside of winter heating.

Figuring out ways to conserve is a benefit regardless of your energy source.


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## jebatty (May 18, 2016)

Disregarding the financial return/cost analysis, there are good reasons to install solar electric, some of which are:
Leaves a visible legacy for family and future generations
Better secures retirement: reduces/ eliminates cost of electricity
Does the “right thing” – is sustainable, preserves and protects the environment

My wife and I put in our system to do "right thing." Only after the system was in did the other benefits become obvious, as well as the fact that our system returns 4.6% tax free, more than 4X better than the cash that was sitting in a money market account.


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## lml999 (May 18, 2016)

jebatty said:


> The federal 30% tax credit is good through 2019 and then scales back in steps.
> http://energy.gov/savings/residential-renewable-energy-tax-credit
> 
> Solar-electric property
> ...



Good information here. 

Additionally, the Renewable Energy Credit program is in its second phase - SREC 2. The first phase provided a higher return on a per KW basis. SREC 2 provides a return that puts us just ahead of the carrying costs on a low interest "solar" loan offered by a number of banks in Massachusetts, making the investment a no brainer. With SREC 3, the credit will be lower, potentially not covering the system costs.

I don't know when SREC 2 runs out and SREC 3 kicks in. All I know is that I signed a PV contract this week on a house I don't own yet...I want to make sure that we get it done this calendar year, and that I don't miss out on the SREC 2 level reimbursement. Also, I just heard that the utility company is looking to get the net metering credits lowered to 40% of retail, rather than the 85% (ish) currently.

Public policy in action!


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## peakbagger (May 18, 2016)

Its pretty simple in Massachusetts, either pay to put solar on your roof or pay for your neighbor to install a system via surcharges on your electric bill. Renewables and efficiency incentive efforts for commercial and institutional are all being funded by surcharges on utility bills and as the ball get rolling, those left buying the electricity are going to see their bill skyrocket even if nat gas remains cheap.

Not sure on the climate in CT


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## lml999 (May 18, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> Its pretty simple in Massachusetts, either pay to put solar on your roof or pay for your neighbor to install a system via surcharges on your electric bill. Renewables and efficiency incentive efforts for commercial and institutional are all being funded by surcharges on utility bills and as the ball get rolling, those left buying the electricity are going to see their bill skyrocket even if nat gas remains cheap.
> 
> Not sure on the climate in CT



Well...the SRECs are a national (actually state by state) program, as is the federal tax rebate.

Again, public policy at work. Government is choosing to make specific investments to drive desired behaviors. In my case, they're incenting me to invest in a large solar array that is bigger than my individual needs. The excess will go back onto the grid and be consumed by my neighbors. As a result, Eversource will not have to provide quite as much total capacity. I see that as a win-win. And in the case of my local area, I can actually direct my excess to another customer and work out a side arrangement with them for reimbursement.


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## peakbagger (May 18, 2016)

SRECs are not national, every state has different rules and participation. I just got my SREC check for NH which is around $45 a MWh while Mass was paying $430 per MWhr. I would much prefer to sell mine in the Mass market but Mass doesn't allow it.

Unfortunately what you missed is that Eversource (or any utility) needs to provide backup infrastructure to generate power quickly if the clouds move in or the sun isn't out. They end up paying "capacity payments" to power producer to have fast start up gas turbine generators on line that typically run #1 fuel oil. They aren't particularly efficient but they go on line quick. Someday battery storage may make a dent in this but currently the cost per MW hr is significantly higher.


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## lml999 (May 18, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> SRECs are not national, every state has different rules and participation. I just got my SREC check for NH which is around $45 a MWh while Mass was paying $430 per MWhr. I would much prefer to sell mine in the Mass market but Mass doesn't allow it.
> 
> Unfortunately what you missed is that Eversource (or any utility) needs to provide backup infrastructure to generate power quickly if the clouds move in or the sun isn't out. They end up paying "capacity payments" to power producer to have fast start up gas turbine generators on line that typically run #1 fuel oil. They aren't particularly efficient but they go on line quick. Someday battery storage may make a dent in this but currently the cost per MW hr is significantly higher.



I stand corrected on the SREC statement.

Agreed that utilities do need to provide additional instructure. Nicely enough, solar energy is more readily available during periods of peak demand (daytime).


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## Brian26 (Jul 3, 2016)

I have had at least 10 solar sales people stop by my house the past 2 months. They now use satellite images/software to analyze your solar potential according to the sales people. As I already know I have a near perfect roof setup for panels and my setup is really standing out. Full sun just about all day, no trees, brand new roof and facing south/southwest.

They all want you to sign a 20 year ppa where they own the panels and lock you in a rate for 20 years. They get all the rebates and incentives. A few sales people were honest upfront and said the money is signing you up for a PPA and not buying them yourself. They all had practically no interest in you buying them or financing them yourself.

If I had the money I would buy them outright as I know I would produce a massive amount excess of power. I am looking into financing them and owning them. Even if its a wash where my monthly payment is my savings on my electric bill I would do it just for the green aspect of it. (And also to stick it to Eversource and there ridiculous rates).

Not sure how accurate googles project sunroof is but here is there numbers.  It looks like my system would be paid off in 11 years and the next 10 years (assuming 20 year life) would be basically free energy.

Anyone in CT own them outright and have any feedback?

Googles project sunroof analysis below.


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## Brian26 (Jul 3, 2016)

This site is awesome in explaining everything. Some numbers from https://solarpowerrocks.com/connecticut/.  I am going to start looking into financing on Tues. With a 15.6 percent return on investment it seems like a no brainer. 

This about sums it up.

Don't have $16,000 sitting around to pay for solar? No sweat! As long as you have equity in your home, you can still own solar panels and reap all the benefits. Heck, even if you _do_ have the cash, getting a loan to pay for solar is by far the best option when it comes to percentage return on investment.

That’s because, in Connecticut, using a loan to pay for solar is like investing in a business that's sure to succeed, _and_ also earns you a tax break. Your energy bill savings will be greater than your loan payments from day 1, meaning you'll never have to spend a cent on solar, and at the end of year 1, you'll get 30% of the installed cost back from the Federal governement as a tax credit.

Once the loan is paid off, you'll be making almost $2,300/year in profits, netting tens of thousands over the 25-year life of your system.

A solar purchase like this will make sense for you if the following is true about you and your current situation:


You can get a home-equity line of credit (HELOC) for $16,050, with a fixed rate of 5% or lower and a 15-year repayment period.
You love making money without much risk

Installing a typical 5-kW solar system should start at about $16,050. That's how big your loan will need to be to cover it.
The electricity you'll save in the first year of operation would have cost $1,346, but your annual loan payments will be just $1,267, meaning you'll come out $80 ahead this year, just for installing solar panels.
But wait—add on another $4,005 when that tax credit comes in! You'll come out $4,084 ahead in year 1, which should help ease the burden of loan payments for a few years, at least.
The benefits of taking the loan are so great that after the loan is paid off, your profits stack up just like if you bought the system outright. You'll end up with $37,409 in profits over our 25-year example—all without putting a single penny into it. That's HUGE.
On top of the green that will stay in your pocket, your system will mean green for the environment, too. 106 trees-worth, every year!


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## begreen (Jul 3, 2016)

Go for it!


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 3, 2016)

Are you sure you want to risk your house on this?  A home equity loan uses your house as collateral.


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## peakbagger (Jul 4, 2016)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Are you sure you want to risk your house on this? A home equity loan uses your house as collateral.


A HELOC by the homeowner is lot better then the creative financing approaches used by various solar financing firms. The majority of those deals allow the solar firm (or the firm that buys the paper), to keep their control of the financing. When the homeowner goes to sell their home, the solar firm has the right to approve the new buyer. If they don't approve the new owner, the current owner has to pay off the system. Many firms cook the books to raise the initial installation cost so they can get higher federal rebates up front so the buy out rate is quite high, they would much rather get the homeowner to pay them the inflated rates.

In general I run my finances so that I don't borrow money but solar panels on a roof may be an exception as long as the solar installer has nothing to do with the HELOC.


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## jebatty (Jul 4, 2016)

Since solar PV is an investment, not a cost, it would be an appropriate use of a HELOC if the terms were good. My HELOC has a rate of 1% below prime, which would be about 2.5% right now. Given that PV return on investment in my area pays 5% or more, a HELOC loan could be a good choice if other funds were not available. Like peakbagger, I too manage finances so as not to borrow money. "Neither a borrower or lender be" -- William Shakespeare, Hamlet.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 4, 2016)

I completely understand that.  What I question is the future.  I'd hate to go into a home equity loan (or line of credit) without a backup on how I'd pay for it if the unexpected happened, such as job loss. 

Now, my warning might be totally unnecessary. The gentleman may have twice the needed amount in cash reserves, but doesnt want to go below 6 months of cash reserves to make this investment.

But he might also be living paycheck to paycheck. 

I just want to make sure he's thought this through as I've been a mortgage consultant and know they're more than happy enough to sell a mortgage if the numbers work.  It often doesn't matter if it's the right decision or not. 

Solar prices will continue to come down.  There's no harm or shame waiting to make the purchase next year when the price will be lower.


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## Brian26 (Jul 4, 2016)

We crunched some numbers yesterday and I think we are going to just outright buy them. We have a budget of $12,500. The house was my grandfathers that he bought brand new in 1958 and we bought it cheap. We love the house, neighbors and town and are here for the long term. 

Our average monthly electrical usage is 400 Kwh/month. Does anyone have any numbers in New England for a 5kwh system? 

The PVWatts website is estimating 8781 kwh's a year based on my address. Almost double of my average monthly usage.


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## peakbagger (Jul 5, 2016)

Rarely does it make sense to go into the power business on purpose, meaning match your expected yearly generation with your yearly usage. There is a big "but" and that depends on what you use for shoulder season heating. If you have net metering, a mini split is great option for heating your home during shoulder season. I generate a surplus and then use it to run a mini split for heating in the fall and spring when the overnight temps are above 30 degrees and the day time temps warm up. During last years mild winter I didn't run my wood boiler until early December and pretty much stopped burning wood after late march.


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## DBoon (Jul 5, 2016)

You'll get about 80 to 130 kWh/month per installed kW of panel, depending on the month.  I'd be shocked if you were able to generate nearly 9000 kWh/year with a 5kW system located in Connecticut.   I would expect closer to 7,000 kWh/year with that size in CT.  I get about 5800 kWh/year in my Central New York location, but this is a bit cloudier area than most of Connecticut, especially in the winter.


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## jebatty (Jul 6, 2016)

PVWatts provides good estimates but accuracy depends on the validity of the assumptions and parameters inserted into the calculation, plus local weather conditions. In my area of Minnesota annual production is in the range of 1.2-1.4 mWh per 1,000 kWh of DC panel rating (my system is a bit under 1.3mWh/1000kWh), but monthly production for my 12.3kW system ranges from a low of about 300 kWh in December to high of about 1,800-1,900 kWh/month in June/July.


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## lml999 (Jul 21, 2016)

Keep in mind that your electric bills will go up over time. With excess power, you can also make different choices -- electric dryer/hot water heater/oven, etc. You might be more inclined to buy an electric car too...

In our case, we expect to be in the house a long time and will find ways to consume the extra capacity.  

Of course, even before we install the panels, we are improving the house efficiency. Mass Save consultant came by yesterday and prescribed $4K of insulation upgrades -- top plate sealing, more attic insulation, etc., and installed perhaps $800 of LED bulbs. That $4K of work will cost us $900 out of pocket. As soon as we get an issue with the hot water heater vent addressed, we'll do the insulation work.

The consultant said that the house will be so well sealed that we should install a bathroom fan that runs continuously at low speed (designed for exactly this purpose). Sort of a poor man's air exchanger... Our house isn't tight enough to require an air exhanger...but some air turnover was recommended. Personally I'd prefer to do a formal air exchanger, but SWMBO keeps a tight handle on the budget, particularly for things she doesn't really understand. 

Interestingly, Mass Save could have provided us with a *lot* more LED bulbs, but they are not allowed to swap out CF for LED...

They did replace a number of halogen mini spots in the basement with LED and I'm not sure I like the color difference. We'll see if we get used to it, otherwise the halogens might go back in.  (They don't take the old bulbs with them....they leave them for the home owner to discard as appropriate).

So, if you have an opportunity for a Mass Save inspection, make sure all the bulbs in your house are incandescent.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 21, 2016)

Does anybody else think it weird that these solar programs seem to be encouraging more electric consumption?
On the other hand, you feel like a sap if you don't take advantage since you're helping to pay for your neighbors' systems.


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## lml999 (Jul 21, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> Does anybody else think it weird that these solar programs seem to be encouraging more electric consumption?
> On the other hand, you feel like a sap if you don't take advantage since you're helping to pay for your neighbors' systems.



Well...there's a difference between more energy consumption and switching energy sources. If I move from a NG hot water heater to electric, and am consuming electricity generated from my roof...sure I'm consuming more electricity. But I'm consuming less NG and I'm not consuming electricity generated by coal, or NG, or oil, or nukes...

From where I sit, it's a net decrease in traditionally generated power, and a shift to sustainable...


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## velvetfoot (Jul 21, 2016)

You agree with me that you will be consuming more electricity by fuel switching.  Electricity is a real time commodity-unless you have batteries or pumped storage generation or the like the load and generation has to be matched.  You will be using more electricity than you used to before you switched fuels even on those days, or maybe weeks or months, when the sun doesn't shine, is low in the sky (winter), short days,, etc.

Your local utility has to plan for your new water heater, a/c, electric car, etc, when you can't supply the load.  Maybe it serves to level the load over the course of the day when the sun is shining, but the utility still has to have enough capacity to supply load, including the increase, whenever the sun is unavailable.

Net metering is an artificial construct.


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## lml999 (Jul 21, 2016)

velvetfoot said:


> You agree with me that you will be consuming more electricity by fuel switching.



Agreed. Some of this additional usage may coincide with peak generation time -- central air, for instance.

Conversely, electric car charging might be done only at night.


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## Dobish (Jul 28, 2016)

my parents are right down the street in Clinton, and they put in a system a few years ago. They have a similar sized roof. they end up producing around 120% of their usage, and they are not the most energy efficient folk. They end up getting paid back by their utility company regularly.  One of the things to look into is a battery storage system (like tesla's wall system) if you have the space. this way you can actually utilize your solar when you need to turn the lights on!







We have solar on 2 places out here in CO, and on 1 of them we produce 100% of our energy, the other about 10%.  We were hoping to be able to produce more, but we were unable to due to our roof design, structure, etc.  If I were to have done things differently on that house, I would have not gone through SolarCity and I would have just built a ground unit to produce enough electricity.  When we first moved into the house, the average electric bill was $350/month, and we are down to around $75 now +$15/month for the solar.


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