# Argument with the wood guy -- Need opinions



## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

Had my first batch of wood delivered yesterday, from a local landscaping company. Deal was for a full cord of two-year old split hardwoods, delivered but not stacked, for $250, which seems to be the going rate around here these days.

Wood seemed to be good quality, but as I was stacking, it was clearly very short. I had built racks measuring 4 feet by 8 feet by 16 inches, and expected a cord to fill, or nearly fill, three of them.

Not a chance. Stacked, it barely fills the second rack. A pic is attached. 

Called them back out to look. They say they've been selling it this way for years and no one has complained. Showed me pics of it stacked at their property, on 4 feet by 4 feet  pallets, but laid criss-cross for drying, and say that each of those makes a half-cord, and so I got two of them, and that was all I was getting.

My state law defines a cord as 128 cubic feet of wood laid parallel and touching, ranked and compacted. I showed that to them. They said all they could do was give me my check back and take back all the wood. Said if they sold it the way I described, they'd go broke. 

Not enough people burn wood around here that we have any true "wood guys," and as far as I can tell, only the landscaping and tree guys sell firewood. So I guess it's hit and miss.

But before I contact the state about these guys, I wanted to ask if they have any sort of case for what they say, or are they totally nuts?

Thanks.


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## gzecc (Aug 6, 2009)

Tell them in writing or an email that you only recieved 2/3's of the wood you were expecting. You either would like 1/3 more or a 1/3 refund. You were expecting a full legal cord. Reference the state definition.


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## stee6043 (Aug 6, 2009)

If they are willing to take it back and refund your money I'd say they seem pretty legit as far as business practice goes.  As far as your math, I see no problems.  You should end up with 3 stacks of 16" splits, 4'x8', for a full cord.

$250 is super expensive for two ricks.....wow...in fact I can't even imagine spending that much for a full cord....


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

I told them to either bring me more wood or give me a partial refund, but they wouldn't go for either. They want to refund all my money and take back all the wood. That's irritating to me, because I'm the one who stacked it all.


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## triptester (Aug 6, 2009)

To start with standard pallets are 48" X 40". Wood stacked neatly  on 2 pallets will leave you 1/3 face cord short with a 2 pallet load.


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

triptester said:
			
		

> To start with standard pallets are 48" X 40". Wood stacked neatly  on 2 pallets will leave you 1/3 face cord short with a 2 pallet load.



Wow, good point. Wish I had known that when I was arguing with them.


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## maplewood (Aug 6, 2009)

A similar cord up here in New Brunswick Canada is going for $250 Canadian.  (I got tree length for $130 a cord.)
But a cord is still 128 cubic feet.
I agree with the last post - get 1/3 money back, or the rest of the wood.  But since you are hard up for wood, don't
let this stuff leave your yard.
(It looks like good wood - is it?  Dry, even lengths?)
Their two answers are weak and funny.  1.  We've always done it this way.  2.  If we sold you what we promised you, 
we'd be out of business.


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

maplewood said:
			
		

> A similar cord up here in New Brunswick Canada is going for $250 Canadian.  (I got tree length for $130 a cord.)
> But a cord is still 128 cubic feet.
> I agree with the last post - get 1/3 money back, or the rest of the wood.  But since you are hard up for wood, don't
> let this stuff leave your yard.
> ...



The problem is, they won't go for any option other than taking back all the wood. They won't bring me 1/3 cord more, and they won't refund 1/3 the cost. They want to sell it to someone else at the inflated price. 

It does look like good wood, though I'm no expert. Seems really dry, the lengths vary from 15-19 inches, but my stove can take them that high.

You should have seen the looks they were giving me, like I thought I was Napoleon or something.


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## Archie (Aug 6, 2009)

First, I really feel for you folks who have to purchase wood, although I recognize some may not have any choice.  From your pic, they are obviously short of a cord, and if they are advertising sales on a per cord basis, the state may be interested in having a talk with them.  But if they are advertising sales on a per pallet load basis, and just casually throwing the term "cord" around in conversation, that may be another matter.  There is also the frustration and time factor with pursuing things like this.  There have been many threads on this subject in the time I've been reading posts here, so there is no shortage of advice; might be worth a search.  Good luck.


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## gzecc (Aug 6, 2009)

You need your response  in writing, delivered. Give them 4 days in the letter to make you whole.  I would still let the state know.  These people are crooks.
According to their own words they have been ripping people off routinely.
Its like a gas station selling 2/3's of a gallon for a gallon. 
Did you talk to the owner, or a worker?


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

gzecc said:
			
		

> You need your response  in writing, delivered. Give them 4 days in the letter to make you whole.  I would still let the state know.  These people are crooks.
> According to their own words they have been ripping people off routinely.
> Its like a gas station selling 2/3's of a gallon for a gallon.
> Did you talk to the owner, or a worker?



Actually, I'm not convinced they are crooks. They're young and I think probably don't know any better. They seemed unable to grasp the fact that a cord wasn't what they'd been thinking it was. I bet they worked for another company that did it this way, then went out on their own and did the same thing. We'll see.

It's two guys who seem to co-own the business. 

But based upon the comments here, I'm thinking now I shouldn't let them take back the wood. Either make them partially refund the money, or bring more wood.


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## gzecc (Aug 6, 2009)

This deceptive selling has cost you valuable time.  Do not let them take back the wood. That is a bullying tactic. I would make sure to talk to the owner. If their opinion is the same as stated previously, I would get the state involved.  
They would go broke!  What about you!  Tell them they should deliver 1/2  cords, they could make more money!


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## quads (Aug 6, 2009)

They're crooks!  Tell the authorities so it's on record.  Then have them take their wood back and give you your money back, if they want to go to the trouble to load it up again and haul it away.  It's their loss.  Then get wood from somebody else.

If you go to the grocery store and buy a dozen eggs, open the carton and there were only 9 eggs in the carton, and the grocery store said that's the way we always sell a dozen eggs any other way and we'd be out of business,........Well then, I say they need to be out of business.


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## ManiacPD (Aug 6, 2009)

Bolt wood that is 4 foot long, stacked 4 feet high, and 8 feet long, is a cord of wood.

If you saw each bolt into three 16" long pieces, split it, dry it (which shrinks the wood), and restack it all you won't fill the same 4 x 4 x 8 foot space.


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

ManiacPD said:
			
		

> Bolt wood that is 4 foot long, stacked 4 feet high, and 8 feet long, is a cord of wood.
> 
> If you saw each bolt into three 16" long pieces, split it, dry it (which shrinks the wood), and restack it all you won't fill the same 4 x 4 x 8 foot space.



That may be true, but nonethelesss, the State of PA defines a cord as 128 cubic feet of wood at the time of sale, not when it was first cut or split.


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## ManiacPD (Aug 6, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

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Sorry, didn't make my point clear.  These young guys probably bought it treelength or 4 foot by the cord then tried to resell the same amount of wood once it was worked up and dried.  You're right, to get 128 ft^3 they needed to add some to it.


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## Jeemco (Aug 6, 2009)

What county in western pa.....  there are several responsible wood guys around you can find


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## burntime (Aug 6, 2009)

Take a pic and send it in writing.  Others are right.  If its not a cord then they owe you.  I would not allow them to take it back unless they pay you for thier time.  Heck, add a storage fee on top to play their game.  An honest wood guy should give you a cord, maybe a little more.  You are clearly shorted.  You have wasted enough time on this.  Just send the letter and wait a week.  At the 1 week mark call the state.


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## stee6043 (Aug 6, 2009)

Holy moly...all this excitiment over a cord (or less) of wood.  Doesn't anyone get the benefit of the doubt anymore?  Writing letters, being forcefull, etc etc.  Sheesh....if this were me I'd simply return the wood.  Lesson learned.  Why make a stink.  The state of PA no doubt has more important things to deal with right now than me getting shorted on a cord of firewood...Just MY OPINION of course.....


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

Jeemco said:
			
		

> What county in western pa.....  there are several responsible wood guys around you can find



I'm in Allegheny County, the suburbs of Pittsburgh, where people seem to enjoy the thrill of being ripped off regularly. I think i'm the only one here who ever questions a workman/tradesman on what he sells or does or charges.

I did get a recommendation on a good "wood guy" from my chimney sweep. The guy told me he only sells "premium" firewood, at $425 a cord, dumped.

Any takers?

But if you know anyone else in Allegheny County, I'd love to get their name.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 6, 2009)

I think I'd eat the loss this year and not use them again.


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## burntime (Aug 6, 2009)

Because these are the type of people who prey on stupid.  They try bullying thier way with poor business practices.  Would you want your mom/dad/sister/brother/etc treated this way?  The best way is to hit em where it hurts.  Thier livelyhood.  There are plenty of reputable guys out there.  We just hear about the bad ones...


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## mainstation (Aug 6, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Holy moly...all this excitiment over a cord (or less) of wood.  Doesn't anyone get the benefit of the doubt anymore?  Writing letters, being forcefull, etc etc.  Sheesh....if this were me I'd simply return the wood.  Lesson learned.  Why make a stink.  The state of PA no doubt has more important things to deal with right now than me getting shorted on a cord of firewood...Just MY OPINION of course.....






well said.


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Holy moly...all this excitiment over a cord (or less) of wood.  Doesn't anyone get the benefit of the doubt anymore?  Writing letters, being forcefull, etc etc.  Sheesh....if this were me I'd simply return the wood.  Lesson learned.  Why make a stink.  The state of PA no doubt has more important things to deal with right now than me getting shorted on a cord of firewood...Just MY OPINION of course.....



But by their own admission, they're selling like this to everyone. Don't you think that needs to be fixed?

It adds up to an awful lot of wood paid-for, but not delivered.


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## wendell (Aug 6, 2009)

At this point, since they have your money and are refusing to make it right, the only 2 options I see are to get the State involved or accept you got screwed and become a scrounger  ;-)  for your future wood needs.


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## gzecc (Aug 6, 2009)

Actually Stee, thats exactly what the states responsibility should be - weights and measures. Do you expect 1 gallon at the gas station when you buy gas?
Would you just accept 2/3's of a gallon for a gallon's price?


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## stee6043 (Aug 6, 2009)

gzecc said:
			
		

> Actually Stee, thats exactly what the states responsibility should be - weights and measures. Do you expect 1 gallon at the gas station when you buy gas?
> Would you just accept 2/3's of a gallon for a gallon's price?



I guess I tend to believe it's my responsibility to make sure I'm being treated fairly.  Not yours, not "ours".  Shame on me if I get fooled.  I had a choice of where to buy firewood.  I made a bad decision.  End of story (for me).  It seems that this type of opinion puts me very much in the minority these days.  But I'm okay with that.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 6, 2009)

The way I see it there are three options available to you.

Option A: Get a partial refund for the undelivered wood . . . sound as if this is unlikely to happen.

Option B: Get more wood from the dealer to make up the full cord . . . again, sounds unlikely to happen.

Option C: Call them up and tell them to pick up their wood and have them refund your check.


It seems as though the State Law is pretty clear with the definition of a cord of wood -- 128 cubic feet, stacked parallel (not cross-laid) -- a very clear definition. If this dealer is not willing to abide by the definition then they need to refund you the undelivered portion of wood or pick up their wood.

It does sound as if you're giving them the benefit of the doubt as they are young and may have learned this practice from another  . . . but it still doesn't make it right. 

For me, deciding whether to make that call to the State and/or have them pick up the wood would all hinge on just how badly I need the wood and how good the wood is. If the wood is truly good wood and your need for wood is great you might want to push back a bit and go to the next level of getting the State involved . . . realizing of course that down the road this dealer may opt to not do any further business with you. 

On the other hand, if you have ready access to wood that is just as good, at similar prices and can be assured it is a true cord as stated by state law from another dealer, you may simply want to call the first dealer up and have them pick up their wood . . . although me being me, I would make sure the wood was in the same state it was when it was delivered . . . if it was in a big pile it would be in a big pile when they came to pick it up. The drawback with this second option is there is a chance you may not get as good wood, you may still be shorted and you may not be able to get any wood from any other dealer at this point . . . 

I should mention that there is Option D as mentioned by Stee . . . chalk this up as a life lesson, give the guys the benefit of the doubt and either return the wood with nothing more said or done or keep the wood and just not do business with them in the future.


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## wendell (Aug 6, 2009)

I know we all love heating our homes with wood but another idea I would like to toss into the mix is that if your wood costs $250 for < 2/3rds a cord or $475 for a full cord, do you even want wood to be your primary source of heat? Living in the suburbs, I'm assuming you have natural gas and if so, burning wood is going to cost you a lot more. I know when I got my stove and had to buy my first cord that first winter, I realized that at the $240 I paid, my wood cost me almost exactly what I spent on natural gas. It was the last cord I bought.


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## Delta-T (Aug 6, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> gzecc said:
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I can appreciate this view Stee, but when you purchase goods and services, its sort of expected that you actually get what you agree to buy.I've been disappointed with quality before, and thats my bad for not doing enough research about a product or servive, this is different. Being a little criminal, is still criminal. Taking advantage of people is still.....That being said, at least the OP is not out bunches of cash or a roof or something. You can do nothing and perpetuate the problem by basically passing on the unethical business to others or you can be proactive and get the USDA (who I believe is the enforcing body for these things) to teach these "kids" how to measure and sell wood. Heaven forbid these guys are just ignorant and try to sell someone 10 cord and get slapped with some rediculous lawsuit, or worse, some crackhead who flips out and shoots somone (i know not likely, but weird stuff happens).


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## madrone (Aug 6, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

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So, instead of helping your neighbors out, you'd let the guys rip them off, one by one. It's easier to make a good choice if you have all the information. If no one points out that they're crooks, how can anyone else steer clear of them? I'm all for personal responsibility, but I can't understand this thinking. If thieves are breaking into a neighbor's house, do you just cluck your tongue and mutter that they should have installed better locks? Are we all just living side by side and trying to avoid each other?

That said, I suppose it's a matter of how much it's worth your trouble. Personally, I couldn't afford a $250 partial cord. I'd either push for the rest of the wood, or money, or just let them take it back (as long as they refunded in cash,) but I couldn't just keep it as is. Notifying the state would be last on my list, since it sounds like they're mostly just ignorant, but I'd sure point out the law every time I spoke to them. There's got to be somebody else around for this year, and I bet you can scrounge up next year's wood yourself.


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## northwinds (Aug 6, 2009)

Full refund.  Come get the wood.

Depending on how that goes, decide whether to report them to weights and measures and/or
better business bureau.


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## kingfisher (Aug 6, 2009)

Plan and simply don't deal with the crook anymore


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## Bigg_Redd (Aug 6, 2009)

Were you home when they delivered it?


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## Henz (Aug 6, 2009)

around here, the reputable wood dealers would make it right. and to tell you the truth, the guy I used to use before I started just doing my own would tell me the price per cord and pay him half of the price. I would then stack it. and if he and I agreed that it was stacked correctly, and that there was a cord there I would give him the rest of the money. If there wasent a cord there he would bring more until there was. but having said that, trust goes both ways, the dealer has to trust that you arent hiding some of the wood someplace else!

I would say that you need to find another dealer and start a good sound relationship with them acknowledging that you will be a good customer for many years to come


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## Bigg_Redd (Aug 6, 2009)

Holy crap.  I just re-read the OP.  Even if they delivered a full cord $250 is just way too much.  The stacking, the storage, the mess. . . for that kind of lucre I'd just use my electric heat.


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## Henz (Aug 6, 2009)

I agree, that is alot of money. I am under the impression that it is dry and ready to burn? even around here, with plenty of hardwood, split and delivered dry is $200-$220/cord


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## JBinKC (Aug 6, 2009)

I would definitely log the complaint on pawam.org


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## rdust (Aug 6, 2009)

They make it right or you get your money back.  250 for 2 face cords is crazy to me.  I wouldn't pay that for 2 cords, of course living in Michigan where we have a lot of wood spoils you.


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## Henz (Aug 6, 2009)

wait a minute. two face cords..thats not even a full cord of wood. its three face cord per full cord...


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

wendell said:
			
		

> I know we all love heating our homes with wood but another idea I would like to toss into the mix is that if your wood costs $250 for < 2/3rds a cord or $475 for a full cord, do you even want wood to be your primary source of heat? Living in the suburbs, I'm assuming you have natural gas and if so, burning wood is going to cost you a lot more. I know when I got my stove and had to buy my first cord that first winter, I realized that at the $240 I paid, my wood cost me almost exactly what I spent on natural gas. It was the last cord I bought.



Here close to a "big city" (Pittsburgh) we pay more for everything. $250 per cord seasoned is the going rate. Of course, natural gas is $14 per MCF, so it's not exactly a cheap alternative, but wood still ends up being cheaper. 

Even so, I mainly heat with gas. I put a woodstove in this year into my basement workshop, and ordered this cord of wood.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 6, 2009)

Did the guy provide you with the detailed receipt required by PA law?


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Did the guy provide you with the detailed receipt required by PA law?



Nope. I had to insist they write one. It does list their company name and phone number but no address. It does list the sales amount as a full cord, along with the price.


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

Some follow-up, for anyone still reading:

Got call from the guy again. He has changed his mind, and has decided that when I gave him the check, I approved the purchase as-is, and so they will do nothing further.

I told him I'd have no choice then but to call the State of PA, which regulates the sale of firewood. He laughed and said" "And what are they gonna do?"


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## rdust (Aug 6, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> Some follow-up, for anyone still reading:
> 
> Got call from the guy again. He has changed his mind, and has decided that when I gave him the check, I approved the purchase as-is, and so they will do nothing further.
> 
> I told him I'd have no choice then but to call the State of PA, which regulates the sale of firewood. He laughed and said"* "And what are they gonna do?**"*



They're going to make him "make it right" that's what they're going to do.  I've read similar situations on here several times and it all seems to work out.  Of course it's a big hassle for you.


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## karri0n (Aug 6, 2009)

Personally, I'd be willing to take the loss if it's actually DRY wood. No one around here will give you dry wood, and if it's the same going rate for a cord of the nasty wet stuff normally sold as seasoned, I'll pay it for knowing it's not going to take another year or more before the stuff is dry. They DID rip you, but the fact that they are willing to take the stuff back is something. If there's really no other suppliers in your area, you may be screwed either way. Test it with a MC meter and see if it's 20% or lower.

If, on the other hand, it's not fully seasoned, and there's other suppliers available, I'd put a split thru the farking windshield of the truck when they come back to take it.


edit: Just did the math and they shorted you more than I thought originally. Take it up with state of PA.


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## zzr7ky (Aug 6, 2009)

I was in the "let him come and get it"... live & let live camp until I saw "“And what are they gonna do?..."  

That attidude I'm inclined to reply "Well you could make good on the deal or we will both find out.'

This guy seems like he's very used to and comfortable ripping folks off.  It rubs me the wrong way.

ATB, 
Mike


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## BrotherBart (Aug 6, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> I told him I'd have no choice then but to call the State of PA, which regulates the sale of firewood. He laughed and said" "And what are they gonna do?"



Well, a fine up to $10,000 for one thing.


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## smokinj (Aug 6, 2009)

heck i would deliver it back to him for the same price and alls good!


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

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Well, but in the end, can't he just fall back on -- "Gee your Honor, I did leave him a full cord. He must have moved/hidden/burned a third of it?"


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## gzecc (Aug 6, 2009)

Call the state.  He at least could be a nice crook! He has the nerve to have an attitude about it.  He has been ripping people off for a long time.  Expose him to the state.  It may be his word against yours, but if he has many complaints the state, knows what's going on.


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## SolarAndWood (Aug 6, 2009)

You paid by check?  And you logged in here before logging into your bank and stopping payment?  Next stop Attorney General.  They are your advocate.  And, oh yeah, park something in front of the woodpile until it is resolved.


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## minnow19 (Aug 6, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> Called them back out to look. *They say they've been selling it this way for years and no one has complained*. Showed me pics of it stacked at their property, on 4 feet by 4 feet  pallets, but laid criss-cross for drying, and say that each of those makes a half-cord, and so I got two of them, and that was all I was getting.



they have been selling it this way for years?????  call me stupid but they must have pallets laying around their yard waiting on order.  If it goes that far and the judge wants to see, they will have it stacked in your racks to see if you got ripped.  

I would report them for being jack@asses - that an extra fine?


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## ansehnlich1 (Aug 6, 2009)

I'd contact the Bureau of Weights and Measures and ratchet the thing up a notch, a cord is a cord, period. 

http://www.consumeraction.gov/state.shtml


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> You paid by check?  And you logged in here before logging into your bank and stopping payment?  Next stop Attorney General.  They are your advocate.  And, oh yeah, park something in front of the woodpile until it is resolved.



I considered stopping payment, but as it is, I'm out perhaps $70 in wood, while stopping payment costs $39 by itself. Plus, there can be legal ramifications to stopping payment on a check.

Plus I'm going out of town tomorrow, with no way to really guard the wood.


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## SolarAndWood (Aug 6, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

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You can borrow my 12 year old rottie for the weekend.  She's old but still appears vicious from what I've heard.  I would pay the $39 to make sure they don't have a cent of your money.  At least call the AGs office this afternoon and find out what their process is.  Not sure how it is in PA, but in NY the seller has to resolve it to the buyers satisfaction even if the buyers satisfaction is ridiculous.  Not a big fan of that and again not sure how PAs AG office works, but you should use it to your advantage in this case.


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## firefighterjake (Aug 6, 2009)

zzr7ky said:
			
		

> I was in the "let him come and get it"... live & let live camp until I saw "“And what are they gonna do?..."
> 
> That attidude I'm inclined to reply "Well you could make good on the deal or we will both find out.'
> 
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I agree with Mike now . . . I'm pretty easy going, but that last comment would get my Irish temper a-boiling and spoiling for a fight . . . sorry, but at this point I would say the gloves have come off and at this point I would be more than a little ticked off.


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## Stevebass4 (Aug 6, 2009)

you gave him a check?  that's easy - stop payment on the check  

edit whoops didn't see the other post 

stop payment  right away - you did not get what you paid for - there are no legal ramifications for stop payments -  where did you hear that??  i get them at work all the time when a check is lost in the mail or a duplicate payment 

the guy can come and get the wood at your terms otherwise you will consider it trespassing


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## biggins08 (Aug 6, 2009)

Send them a cerfied letter, and copy the appropriate state board.


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## dave11 (Aug 6, 2009)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

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Well, yeah I'm ticked off, but honest to God I think these jokers really think they're in the right.

There are legal ramifications to stopping a check under these circumstances. Firstly, they did provide 2/3 cord of wood, and so I do owe them for that. Secondly, if in the end the judge or the state decide I don't have enough evidence to say they shorted me, I'll still owe them the same amount of money, plus interest and court costs, and sometimes triple damages applies, though I'm not sure in PA.

But the other reason is that now, if I force them to make it good, I lose some influence with the state. If I only pay them for what they gave me, then the state might say "Well, it's fixed now, so we won't pursue it."  At this point, I'll give up the $31 ($70 minus $39) to have them investigated.


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## BrotherBart (Aug 6, 2009)

You aren't going to spend a lot of time on a $70 dollar loss but you for sure aren't going to get satisfaction from this guy or ever do business with him again. File a complaint with PA Weights and Measures and then follow up on it if they do not respond in a reasonable time. At the least it will wipe the smirk off that fool's face. At best a pile of wood will be dumped in your front yard some day and he will get the privilege of getting as much grief as you got.

Bureaucrats love to justify their existence by jacking up guys like him.


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## SolarAndWood (Aug 6, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

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They have $250 for delivering less than $170 worth of wood at the price you agreed to pay.  It's not right that the money is in their bank account and the wood is not on your pile.  Unless the PA AG is very different from NY, they will back you up in this case.  They have given you no other option.


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## Hurricane (Aug 7, 2009)

I would file the complaint with the state anyway. As I was reading down the list here I was thinking let him take the wood and file the complaint. Now that him taking the wood back is not an option definitely file the complaint. 

See if the guy lists on Craigslist and everytime he posts, you post a note alerting his prospective customers to his business practices and complaints. I would post on craigslist anyway. Hit him in the pocket like he did you. And you are at least being honest about your comments so you would have nothing to feel bad about.

Just my 2 cents

I would be mad as hell


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## newstove (Aug 7, 2009)

I got shorted earlier this year. I bought 3 cords for $160/cord delivered. After it was all stacked I wound up with about 2.5 cord. I complained, the guy said he would bring out the other half.  He never showed up. Needless to say I won't ever purchase there again. 

In your case I would stop payment on the check as you got shorted much harder than I.   I paid cash under the promise that if it was short he would make it right. A 3 cord pile is pretty large so it looked pretty close so it could be an honest mistake in my case but after stacking it was short. The guy was supposed to be reputable but just never made good on it. He didn't have an attitude though he did stay nice throughout. *shrug* 

You could try to get them on record with what they call a cord and get the state involved. I am sure the state would be happy to teach them some math skills.


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## Chris S (Aug 7, 2009)

Wow, what a response this post got.
I find it interesting when people post " face cord, half cord etc"  In my experience, weights and measures & state law dictate how firewood can be sold,  and they take themselves seriously.  The comparison to gasoline is a very good example.  One cannot where I live call something a cord that is less than 128 cu ft. period.  The definition posted earlier is a good one, if a little lengthy.

My take on this would be, and it's gone past this...  Provide to me what I am entitled to under the law, or I will file a complaint with the proper jurisdiction.  Partial payment, take the wood back etc.  none of them sit well with me  ( unless the seller had offered a partial refund)  If I were him, ( and I sell some wood) I would drive to your house with a load of wood & let you have what you needed, plus some extra, but that's me.   Cancelled checks, and threats may bring unlawful retaliation from the wrong type of person, and that to me is not worth $70  ( I'm thinking of  a frozen orange that came through a window after a bad college type prank)

At any rate, as far as you've come,  I would say filing with the proper authority is the right course.  Even if you don't feel like you're getting satisfaction, though I think you will.  It is the proper course.  ( If this were a forum on etiquette anyway)


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## dave11 (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks for all the input, guys (and girls?). 

I have already filed the complaint. Not sure how long it will take to hear back. I'll post some follow-up, one way or another.


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## maplewood (Aug 7, 2009)

Have you called other wood sellers in your area?  Ask them if what happened to you is "normal".  Don't bad mouth your supplier, just gather information.
I want to say fight it, but that's a hassle, too.  I'm not for rolling over, as they are ripping you off.  It's a $70 lesson, or a fight for $70 - you have to weigh the options.
Good luck.


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## Hurricane (Aug 7, 2009)

Maplewood, 

    I do not think the fight is for 70$, I think it is to get what he paid for. I check my bill often lately at restaurants and at least every 3rd time I find an extra soda a wrong thing I did not order. My wife got annoyed the first couple of times and said it is only 2-3 bucks let it go. Hell no I do not think I should pay for services or products not delivered, so I questioned and had it corrected. Too many people these days do not stand up for what is right.

Sorry for the rant


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## SolarAndWood (Aug 7, 2009)

Hurricane said:
			
		

> Maplewood,
> 
> I do not think the fight is for 70$, I think it is to get what he paid for. I check my bill often lately at restaurants and at least every 3rd time I find an extra soda a wrong thing I did not order. My wife got annoyed the first couple of times and said it is only 2-3 bucks let it go. Hell no I do not think I should pay for services or products not delivered, so I questioned and had it corrected. Too many people these days do not stand up for what is right.
> 
> Sorry for the rant



No apology required cane...it is just wrong, Dave should get what he paid for and they should get nothing if they don't make it right.


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## dumbodog00 (Aug 7, 2009)

I don't get why people on here say let it go with what you got.  You should get what you pay for.  Would you be happy if you paid for produce at a rate 1/3 more, just because?  As someone else said, what about gasoline, eggs, anything you buy?  I wouldn't be happy and would do what I needed to, to get what I was owed.  Espcially with the attitude you have recieved.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 7, 2009)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> gzecc said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is a crock of shat!
A deal was made to purchase a supplied cord of wood. The "cord" worth was not delivered. Its not the purchasers fault, but the sellers.
If you got an oil delivery, and they charged you for 300 gallons, but only filled your tank with 200 gallons. Is that your fault? NO
If you bought a new house based on plans shown to you by the builder, and at time of settlement found only 2/3 of the house was built, who's fault is that.
If everyone was honest we wouldn't need weights & measures dept. His responsibility was to stack it, and seeing it was not the agreed amount paid for, let the seller know, which he did. The seller is not making good.
Yes I myself would tell him to bring my cash back and come get his short load of wood. I also would tell him no driving up to it, but he must wheel barrow it from the stack to his truck parked in the street.
There is a reason there is a weights & measures law & dept, and this is perfect example why. He didn't get fooled, he got ripped off paying in good faith. If it was the days where he could take a shotgun to the guy and make him bring the rest, then that is what I personally would do. But those days are long gone.
You may be the type that is fine to eat it and "chalk it up to a bad decision", but some of us still have balls, and don't take being ripped of very lightly.
Yes your in the minority, and thank god it is the minority.
Rather than tell the guy shame on himself and make him feel any worse than he may already, try and be a little more supportive next time. 
I'm ok with you being the minority too. Shakes head.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 7, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> firefighterjake said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stop payment on the check and hold it in escrow until they make right. That means the money is there, but held up till the issue is resolved. Don't roll over on this arrogant mofo.
Just think of all the ppl he ripped off before you, and the many more after you!

Also, as you stated he said. He stacks it on 2 pallets at his yard and they to him equal a cord. Let him explain that to weights & measures when they show up at his yard and start measuring what he is calling a cord.
I'm pissed off just reading this. I'm in eastern PA. Might be worth the trip to Western PA to set some wrongs, right. In a non-violent, peaceful kinda way ya know.........


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## myzamboni (Aug 7, 2009)

also this is about more that $70.  Think beyond yourself.  If they short 100 customers this way it's $7K.  

You have filed with WAM, now take a picture of the stacks then call and have them come take the wood after giving you $250 cash.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 7, 2009)

Pictures is good, I'd do that. but I would also keep the wood there until W&M;came and saw it in person themselves. Pictures can be deceiving at times, real life look cant.


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## dave11 (Aug 7, 2009)

Hogwildz said:
			
		

> dave11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I appreciate the sentiment, but let's face it--it's only $70. I've already filed the complaint with the state of PA, and BrotherBart seems to think that will satisfy, but i'm skeptical. They'll ask me to prove he didn't bring me a full cord,and I won't be able to, and there it will end.

But if they at least pay him a visit, and explain what a cord is supposed to be, and keep his name on file, then at least we'll have accomplished something.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 7, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> Hogwildz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tell W&M;to look around, how many places do you have to hide 1/3 a cord of wood?
Anyways, you did the right thing, good luck. If ya ever want to pay them a late night visit, lemme know


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## wendell (Aug 7, 2009)

I wonder what the record is for the most posts to a thread in one day. This one has to come awful close. Way to get the hearth.com community rocking, Dave!


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## Hogwildz (Aug 7, 2009)

wendell said:
			
		

> I wonder what the record is for the most posts to a thread in one day. This one has to come awful close. Way to get the hearth.com community rocking, Dave!



This thread only has 5 pages of posts, there are some that have many more that that.
Usually the cat vs non cat threads, cap vs no cap, wire brush vs poly. etc etc. This is still an infant size thread


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## dave11 (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks you guys. I think pretty much everyone with an opinion has weighed in. 

I'll let everyone know what happens.


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## Duetech (Aug 7, 2009)

Perhaps the sellers only need a little education. If this wood was sold to an older couple or person on pension or low fixed income the effect could be devastating. Simply returning the wood for the cash is not good business culture. Sellers jsut can't falsely adveertise. If the guys can't sell wood according to what the law recognizes then they need to readjust their ads. If they ae not willing to readjust their ads and continue to sell wood this way they are crooks and need to quit doing business. I've sold wood and it's not easy to make money for the work done. There is a chance these guys know they are short changing people and want the wood back to keep out of the lime light.


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## madrone (Aug 7, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> I appreciate the sentiment, but let's face it--it's only $70. I've already filed the complaint with the state of PA, and BrotherBart seems to think that will satisfy, but i'm skeptical. They'll ask me to prove he didn't bring me a full cord,and I won't be able to, and there it will end.
> 
> But if they at least pay him a visit, and explain what a cord is supposed to be, and keep his name on file, then at least we'll have accomplished something.



You did about what you could. It'd be a waste of time and effort to go much further, who needs the aggravation? I'm not sure how you'd ever be able to prove anything unless the the inspector was there at delivery, but either the guy screws it up for himself by arguing his "cord" is legal, or he goes ahead and follows the rules to avoid trouble. Either way you did your part.


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## Nonprophet (Aug 7, 2009)

Sounds like the seller is his own worst enemy--that is if WAM follows through and goes down to his yard to see what he is calling a "cord" it will clearly be short and he'll get busted.......hopefully with a nice fat fine!
Like others have said, IMHO too many people these days get screwed and are just too lazy to do anything about it, and so the "screwers" stay in business and keep screwing away.......for me it really wouldn't be about the wood or the $70, but
just stopping these guys from ripping off other people.

Good luck and keep us posted


NP


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## minnow19 (Aug 7, 2009)

dave11 said:
			
		

> *Showed me pics of it stacked at their property*, on 4 feet by 4 feet  pallets, but laid criss-cross for drying, and say that each of those makes a half-cord, and so I got two of them, and that was all I was getting.



you should have asked for copies of those pictures :shut: 

or is there any way you know where they are located.  Take some of your own pictures.  Like stated, it may only be $70 to you, but $70 to someone else may put food on the table for some youngsters


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## BrotherBart (Aug 7, 2009)

Sounds like time for Hogwildz to fire up that Harley and go for a little road trip. That would be a Come To Jesus Moment for those wood peddlers that I would hate to miss.  :coolsmile: 

"A local proctologist today reported a first ever case where he had to remove a split of firewood from a patient. When asked how it got there the patient replied 'All I remember is hearing a Harley stop behind me and a voice telling me I owed his buddy some wood.  When I said 'What are you going to about it?' I turned and some big long haired dude covered in tattoos was standing behind me grinning.'

Honest doc, that is the last thing I remember. Is the phone ringing in here?"


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## Hogwildz (Aug 7, 2009)

LMAO,
You guys got me all wrong. I am a mellow guy. Even keeled, laid back.
But those wood delivery guys kinda make the hairs stand on the back on my neck.
I always pull for the underdog. I'd have to use a nice knarly pc, that went in easier than coming out. Maybe a few mail barbs to top it off.
Anyone that sells wood for a living, at least in these parts, knows exactly what a cord is. These guys are just plain screwing their customers.
And deserve a little human induced karma to come back around to them.


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## iceman (Aug 7, 2009)

Dave i feel bad for you... but if  it were me, 1) stop payment.....2) tell him to pick it up or bring the rest 
if he  wanted to take me to court ... lets go .....   right now if you really want your wood .... call the news and get him exposed... maybe others will see it and think "oh thats what  i got" then everyone complains!   but dont roll over 250 is a lotta of money nowadays


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## TMonter (Aug 8, 2009)

Talking to the local news is a good idea, especially if you make an rational appeal to the seller first and he does nothing to correct it.


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## Hogwildz (Aug 8, 2009)

TMonter said:
			
		

> Talking to the local news is a good idea, especially if you make an rational appeal to the seller first and he does nothing to correct it.



Good idea, the news ppl round here are just frothing at the mouth to get a good local story.


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## Hurricane (Aug 8, 2009)

Did you find him on CraigsList ?
 You could let people there know by posting another post letting people know he shorts his customers. 
Or post a link to his add here and some people around here will fill his mailbox, ring his phone at different hours.


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## iceman (Aug 8, 2009)

i wopuld def hit the news set the record straight on what a cord is here is an example
look at this post you can see 3 rows by what looks 8 ft 
http://hartford.craigslist.org/grd/1311279203.html


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## Highbeam (Aug 9, 2009)

When he comes back to collect his wood, perhaps you only let him have 2/3 of what he sold you?


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## northwinds (Aug 10, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> When he comes back to collect his wood, perhaps you only let him have 2/3 of what he sold you?



Any update from the original poster?


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## drdoct (Aug 10, 2009)

This has been beat to death, but be sure to let WAM know about the 'what are they gonna do' comment.  With any luck you'll get a lifetime govt worker with a chip on their shoulder.  One of the only times I actually like to see those roll.  Some people hit on this but I don't think it was hit hard enough.  Make sure you charge them for the time you wasted stacking.  If they come and pick it up then it'd be with a $20 add on and that's being generous to them for what I charge for my time.  Time is precious and I hate to see people act like it's nothing at all.  If it didn't mean anything then I'd have all my wood pile done, but right now more important things are taking up that time.  Truthfully, most people they deliver to are like my dad and would never take the time to actually stack the wood.  They're idiots for not silencing you by dropping off more to make it right.  I'm with hogwildz because I'd be doing everything in my power to get way ahead on this situation.


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## mn_jon (Aug 11, 2009)

I think you did the right thing by filing a complaint.  I would take pictures of the stacks with the measuring tape on them.  Also try to write down about when you called and what was said.  Have a neutral party (a neighbor or something) take a look at the stacks as a witness.  I don't think the state will think you went through this elaborate scheme to steal some wood and hide it.  They are smarter than that.  I applaud anyone who isn't going to stand there and get screwed out of 70$ worth of anything.  Up here I think you could get stabbed over 7 bucks     And that comment "what are is the state going to do about it?"  that just gets me going.  I wouldn't want you to get in trouble so do as I say, not as I do.  I'd get the remaining wood to make 3 cords.




Jon


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## hunterpa64 (Jan 30, 2010)

dave11 said:
			
		

> Had my first batch of wood delivered yesterday, from a local landscaping company. Deal was for a full cord of two-year old split hardwoods, delivered but not stacked, for $250, which seems to be the going rate around here these days.
> 
> Wood seemed to be good quality, but as I was stacking, it was clearly very short. I had built racks measuring 4 feet by 8 feet by 16 inches, and expected a cord to fill, or nearly fill, three of them.
> 
> ...


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## Spikem (Jan 31, 2010)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> Holy moly...all this excitiment over a cord (or less) of wood.  Doesn't anyone get the benefit of the doubt anymore?  Writing letters, being forcefull, etc etc.  Sheesh....if this were me I'd simply return the wood.  Lesson learned.  Why make a stink.  The state of PA no doubt has more important things to deal with right now than me getting shorted on a cord of firewood...Just MY OPINION of course.....



In your sig, you have the following:

*(30) Milwaukee’s Best Light *

Are you telling us that if you go to your local package store and purchase a 30-pack that, if you got home and found only 20 in there and were told "That's how we sell it" that you're ok with that?


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## Stihl Country (Jan 31, 2010)

I would get your money back while the gettin was good. And go shop for wood someplace else.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Jan 31, 2010)

quads said:
			
		

> They're crooks!  Tell the authorities so it's on record.  Then have them take their wood back and give you your money back, if they want to go to the trouble to load it up again and haul it away.  It's their loss.  Then get wood from somebody else.
> 
> If you go to the grocery store and buy a dozen eggs, open the carton and there were only 9 eggs in the carton, and the grocery store said that's the way we always sell a dozen eggs any other way and we'd be out of business,........Well then, I say they need to be out of business.



I can't say it better than that!
 I would sit there tippin' a bottle of Johny Walker while laugin at these Dorks reloading the wood . . . then take the money and get way cheaper stuff that isn't seasoned.


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## golfandwoodnut (Jan 31, 2010)

dave11 said:
			
		

> Thanks you guys. I think pretty much everyone with an opinion has weighed in.
> 
> I'll let everyone know what happens.



Dave, In the future, I can supply you with wood if you like.  I have 23 acres here and have more wood than I could ever possibly use.  However, I just started burning seriously this year so I do not have that much seasoned yet.   I am breaking apart my Holtz Hausen now so I could even get a cord now if you want (you can see it in my Avatar, mostly Cherry). By next year I should have alot.  I even bought a Bobcat so I can start getting real serious about harvesting wood.  I walked the woods yesterday and there are probably 15 cords of dead Oak, Locust and Cherry crying to be cut and burned. You know I will treat you right or the guys on hearth.com would crucify me.


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## rdust (Jan 31, 2010)

golfandwoodnut said:
			
		

> Dave, In the future, I can supply you with wood if you like.  I have 23 acres here and have more wood than I could ever possibly use.  However, I just started burning seriously this year so I do not have that much seasoned yet.   I am breaking apart my Holtz Hausen now so I could even get a cord now if you want (you can see it in my Avatar, mostly Cherry). By next year I should have alot.  I even bought a Bobcat so I can start getting real serious about harvesting wood.  I walked the woods yesterday and there are probably 15 cords of dead Oak, Locust and Cherry crying to be cut and burned. You know I will treat you right or the guys on hearth.com would crucify me.



Good man, that's a heck of an offer!  +1


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## ansehnlich1 (Jan 31, 2010)

HOLY RESURRECTED THREAD BATMAN!

I've burned hmmmm, let's see, over 4 cord of seasoned wood since this thread was started late last summer.....


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## Danno77 (Jan 31, 2010)

i know this is an old thread, but i'd have shoved the stacked wood over and told the douches to come and get it.


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## dave11 (Jan 31, 2010)

Since I'd had trouble with wood dealers in the past, I clicked on this thread to see what was the story, and discovered it was my own thread from last summer!

Someone's been busy in the archives. 

If anyone wants follow-up on the original problem, I called PA WAM a second time and sent another email. Got an apology from a supervisor, then was called by one of the inspectors. He listened to the story and said: "Well, the guy's confused or dishonest, but either way, we won't be able to prove anything." He said he'd call the guy and get back to me, but of course he never did.

So that's where it ended. I think the best advice to give to folks is to assume every wood seller is either mistaken or dishonest in how they sell wood, and assume you will be cheated, either intentionally or accidentally. If you are lucky enough to find a good seller, he probably won't be around for long.


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## Jake (Jan 31, 2010)

FIXED IT FOR Ya!



			
				dave11 said:
			
		

> They say they've been *ROBBING PEOPLE BLIND BY *selling it this way for years


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## SpeakEasy (Jan 31, 2010)

I've had somewhat similar experience with two out of the three people I've bought wood from this year. The interesting thing is, I told each of them that I'm looking for a reliable, long-term wood supplier and that I'll be buying quite a bit of wood each year. I've made it clear that if they made me happy, I'd be a repeat and repeat and repeat customer. I figured that might carry some weight with them. Unfortunately,  I guess most people would rather have an immediate sale and the heck with long-term. That's too bad.

My final situation is to fall back on a guy I've bought campfire wood from for years. He is honest and will give me full cords, but only sells green wood. I'm buying now for next year. 

The first year is a pain.

-Speak


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## Adkjake (Jan 31, 2010)

I came late to this thread, interesting back and forth.  one avenue of redress I haven't seen brought up
is Small Claims Court.  I've used it three times with varying success.
1. Filed the claim and suit, business I was suing didn't even bother to show up. Summary judgement.
Now the hard part.  collecting.  Had to make a myself a pain in the butt to the county sheriff. but come
election time, got their attention.  Deputy and I go to the business, either pay the claim or we confiscate
something of similar value.  They fork over the cash.

2.  Filed the claim, subpeona them.  they realize cost of going to court is more than damages I'm seeking,
they settle.

3. File suit, go to court, again guy doesn't show up.  He's since closed that business and is now operating under 
anohter name.  Judge tells me I need to make the nexus, I keep dropping paper on the guy, might as well make
his life miserable.  We'll see how this one plays out.

If you have some spare time, and some moxy, not a bad way to go.


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