# Generous Massachusetts $1600/ton mini split rebate.



## Brian26 (Jan 28, 2020)

For those in Massachusetts Mass Save is now offering a generous $1600/ton-12k btu rebate on non ducted mini splits that are connected to fuel optimization controls. Bascially a controller automatically swictches to your existing fossil fuel heat source using an outside temp sensor.  According to Mass save rebate data the average install rate for a 12k Mitsubishi single zone is around $3750-$4000. The rebate now brings them down to around $2500. At that price I think there are going to be alot installed. I was reading on another forum that a Mitsubishi dealer said he booking out months ahead as he has soo many installs lined up.

Effectively using heat pumps with your existing heating system can reduce heating costs for customers who heat their homes with oil or propane. By installing an Integrated Control, the system can automatically switch from heating with your heat pump to your conventional heating system based on a preselected outdoor temperature. This allows for maximum comfort and cost savings throughout the winter months. *Generous Fuel Optimization rebates* are being offered to encourage the reduction of high CO2 heating fuels. Candidates must heat primarily with oil or propane, and install a qualifying central heat pump or mini-split heat pump with an approved integrated control. In addition, Fuel Optimization rebates are also available to customers who heat primarily with electric resistance, however in this instance, Integrated Controls are not applicable or required.









						Residential Rebates & Incentives for Homeowners, Renters, & Landlords
					

Lower your energy costs and improve your comfort with rebates from Mass Save®.



					www.masssave.com


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## maple1 (Jan 28, 2020)

Does that 3750-4000 include the required controls?

Just wondering what they add to cost.

That is about what the installed cost is here, in Canadian funds, with no such controls. Our rebate was $200/ton.

I would be all over this.


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## Brian26 (Jan 28, 2020)

maple1 said:


> Does that 3750-4000 include the required controls?
> 
> Just wondering what they add to cost.
> 
> ...



Not sure on the exact pricing but a google search shows a Mitsubishi Kumo Cloud wifi unit is around $150. There is a list of approved controllers on the linked website. 

I can't seem to find it now but Mass Save publishes a list of all the incentives paid out and what equipment was installed. Many states do that with solar panels as well so you can get a good idea on what people are paying.


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## peakbagger (Jan 28, 2020)

Its a great idea and an admission that Mini Splits are best as supplemental heat. I do it manually running the minisplit during the day if the temps and sun is right and switching to wood at night.


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## maple1 (Jan 28, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> Its a great idea and an admission that Mini Splits are best as supplemental heat. I do it manually running the minisplit during the day if the temps and sun is right and switching to wood at night.



Yes, I juggle similarly also. Second year at it, still trying to figure what exact juggling routine is best overall for me.

Lately, I will likely run the splits if daytime temps are close to the freezing point, or it is sunny out for good solar gain, and running them will get me to another day without burning. If running them won't get me to another day, and save a days burn - I likely won't run them. I think last year I ran them thru some colder nights, that I'm not this year. I let them go last night, but it only dropped to -6c.  I just shut them off an hour ago and will burn later this afternoon. Another thing I'm trying to pay more attention to, in shoulder season, is to burn just enough so the electric water heater won't kick in. That usually ends up looking like running the splits for 3 days or so then burning a day, hopefully on a cooler day where the house can use more wood heat. I have really cut down on wood use a lot since having them. I think (very) rough figuring after year 1 was saving 3 cords of wood, costing around $500 in extra electricity. But there was some summer dehumidifying &  a/c use in there too.

That's all with having very cheap wood heat as the alternative. If I had say oil or resistance electric heat as the alternative, they would likely be running close to all the time and I would likely have a third inside unit - so would be more primary heat than supplemental.


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## Brian26 (Jan 28, 2020)

peakbagger said:


> Its a great idea and an admission that Mini Splits are best as supplemental heat. I do it manually running the minisplit during the day if the temps and sun is right and switching to wood at night.



I have a family member thats involved with this program. They are finding the mini splits are supplying basically the majority of the heating load and are cutting fossil fuels usage almost completely. The fossil fuel burners are actually the supplemental heat. He said some of the data from the Kumo clouds are showing that tons of homes this winter never even used any supplemental heat as its been so mild.

I also heard many people installing these also have solar panels as MA has the best incentives in the US. 

Not sure why you think mini splits are mainly for supplemental heat. I was at a couple large apartments buildings here under construction that are being heating and cooled entirely with Daikin units. No gas or backup electric heat. 

Yes up north in old leaky homes they probably won't work but this is where eveything is headed.


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## begreen (Jan 28, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> I have a family member thats involved with this program. They are finding the mini splits are supplying basically the majority of the heating load and are cutting fossil fuels usage almost completely. The fossil fuel burners are actually the supplemental heat. He said some of the data from the Kumo clouds are showing that tons of homes this winter never even used any supplemental heat as its been so mild.
> 
> I also heard many people installing these also have solar panels as MA has the best incentives in the US.
> 
> ...


Agreed. In many modern homes the best can supply 100% of the heating requirements. 

How did your Pioneers do during the last cold snap?


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## peakbagger (Jan 28, 2020)

I don't have a leaky home and I know several others who also do not have leaky homes in this climate and have run minisplits for a couple of years.  They all use the same approach as buying enough units to cover very cold weather is a waste of money. Far better to use it when they make sense and rely on backup source. Grabbing some degree day data from Islip Long Island airport the last years HDD are 5905, For the closest airport to my location Berlin NH the HDD 10110. Worcester Mass is 7863. We would consider Islip as " balmy".  The folks who are early adopters of mini splits in cold climates tend to be those who are concerned with energy efficiency so they have already gone after the easy savings like a leaky house. My house  barely qualified for the NH weather upgrade program as it didn't use enough fuel.  Authorities in  VT and Me are also acknowledging that minisplits get more costly to run than alternatives (mostly oil) in cold weather. Therefore, as I have qualified before, minisplits in* cold *climates are at best supplemental heat and it appears as though the commonwealth of Mass is also backing that up.  NEEP also comes to the same conclusion. In a milder coastal influenced climate that may not be the case. I am not discouraging the use of minisplits but its irresponsible to represent them as primary heat in "cold climates" unless there are some strong qualifiers on what is defined as cold. 

I would not look at current construction practice for large apartment buildings as necessarily the right thing to do. The builders typically are looking at least cost and mini split units in bulk are pretty cheap to install compared to the alternatives where both AC and heat are required especially as I expect NYSERDA or some other entity is paying a rebate to install them.  In many cases the tenant units are individually metered so the developer doesn't care how much it costs to heat the units as the tenants are paying.  In this case they have no choice of heat. If there is a cold apartment, the tenant just plugs in space heater during cold conditions. Overall its less expensive for 90% of the time as the outside temps are higher. 

Note, There are some groups that argue that the fossil alternatives are "dirtier" so the minisplits should be run to a lower outdoor temp so if the aim is improvement in local air quality perhaps that may be a non economic factor.


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## Brian26 (Jan 28, 2020)

begreen said:


> Agreed. In many modern homes the best can supply 100% of the heating requirements.
> 
> How did your Pioneers do during the last cold snap?



I actually uninstalled the pioneer and plan to move it to a small lake cabin in the spring.  There is a procedure to use the compressor to pump the refrigerant back into the condenser by closing off one off the valves. Its cold weather performance wasnt that great. It was a great starter unit and good way to learn how to install one, how they run, etc. 

I now have a 12 k Midea Premier floor console upstairs and 12k Gree Sapphire downstairs where the Pioneer was.


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## begreen (Jan 28, 2020)

How did the new units work in the single-digit weather?


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## Dmurph2016 (Feb 16, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> Not sure on the exact pricing but a google search shows a Mitsubishi Kumo Cloud wifi unit is around $150. There is a list of approved controllers on the linked website.
> 
> I can't seem to find it now but Mass Save publishes a list of all the incentives paid out and what equipment was installed. Many states do that with solar panels as well so you can get a good idea on what people are paying.


Last August I had 2 mini splits installed and got the intergrated controls which is the kumo system, that system was 2,000.
Mine are set so at 32 and below my oil heat kicks on, a over 32 the mini splits would. I ran them for a bit until mid November. I noticed that below 20 degrees they lost a lot of efficiently and were blowing colder air, and my electric bill was a big higher, but I also didn’t use oil for that time so it offset it a bit.


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## Brian26 (Sep 4, 2020)

A few New England states have significantly increased their rebates for air source heat pumps. CT just tripled its rebate and is now offering $1500/ton up to 5 tons ($7500 max). I saw Maine doubled its rebate this year as well.

Seems like a great time to get one if your in New England.


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## woodgeek (Sep 4, 2020)

My brother on the Cape will be ticked, bc he finally put a mini in his house last year after not having central AC and dithering for years.

Sounds like a heck of a deal.


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## nal51511 (Sep 4, 2020)

Brian26 said:


> I actually uninstalled the pioneer and plan to move it to a small lake cabin in the spring.  There is a procedure to use the compressor to pump the refrigerant back into the condenser by closing off one off the valves. Its cold weather performance wasnt that great. It was a great starter unit and good way to learn how to install one, how they run, etc.
> 
> I now have a 12 k Midea Premier floor console upstairs and 12k Gree Sapphire downstairs where the Pioneer was.


How much space were you heating with the pioneer and which one did you have?  I was looking at getting one and live in Guilford but now second guessing myself. We're the new ones just as simple to install? 
Thanks
Nick


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## CaptSpiff (Sep 5, 2020)

I was looking at the Pioneer 12k btu, 220vac. Good prices on the 19 seer model, but I think it's only rated down to 15 degF for heat. They have a 21 seer model for about $300 more which I believe goes to below zero degF. Looks identical install process, but I have not done a Pioneer yet myself.

For DIY'ers without N2 for leak testing or without Vac Pump for removing moisture, I see they now sell "purge gas in a can". Anyone with experience on this product?








						KWIK-E-VAC Line Set Flushing Kit Installation Simplifier for Mini Split Air Conditioning Systems
					

Overview Summary Flush the air and other non-condensable gases out of the copper line set and indoor unit Alternative for the inefficient and expensive quick-connect line sets Cost-effective, simple, and quick evacuation Perfect for most people and installations Description Pioneer KWIK-E-VAC is...




					www.pioneerminisplit.com
				




Sorry, just realized this is the $1600 rebate thread, which you probably can't get if you install yourself.


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## woodgeek (Sep 6, 2020)

I would point out re BG's question, with these controllers the mini would be locked out in very cold weather and never run in favor of fossil.

This seems like a very sensible incentive.  And would put an end to the endless trouble with calculating economic break-even....install a little computer to decide.  Of course, most installers will configure the controller to lock out the mini at 40 or 50°F outdoor temp.


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## 3fordasho (Sep 7, 2020)

nal51511 said:


> How much space were you heating with the pioneer and which one did you have?  I was looking at getting one and live in Guilford but now second guessing myself. We're the new ones just as simple to install?
> Thanks
> Nick


I installed a pioneer 9k, 22.8 SEER unit just a few months ago.  Install was pretty easy but I have basic A/C equipment (gauges, vacuum pump).  Very happy with the unit so far but can't comment on heating performance yet.  Both inside and outside units are very quiet, especially the inside unit.  I was concerned my wife would complain about fan noise but no complaints- she doesn't like the light from the display but a little tape took care of that. I'm only cooling one level of a four level 3400 sq ft home with this unit (the level we sleep in) and it's very efficient compared to running the 3 ton central a/c.  I'm about to order a 2nd unit for another level today since they have a 5% off labor day special.


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## Brian26 (Oct 14, 2020)

My town just started a program for residents that focuses on insulating the home first and then installing heat pumps and solar.  They will install $5944 worth of insulation for $418 after incentives. The $10k toward heat pumps is only $4300 after rebates incentives. So $15,944 in insulation and heat pumps for only $4,718 out of pocket. Its crazy how much money is out there for these programs.

I already took advantage of the state incentives years ago and insulated and air sealed and installed mini splits/solar. I use my mini splits year round for all my heating and cooling and have plenty of net metered solar power to run them.  Having really good insulation is key though and its good to see the incentives towards it.


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## lml999 (Feb 27, 2022)

Good installers are booking months out. Last week I called my plumber and water treatment company, which is also a Mitsubishi Diamond dealer. I have an appointment for the end of April, which puts an installation on the September page of the calendar.

I've gotten closer appointments with a couple of other local Diamond dealers, will be discussing a system that probably has five heads, one of them multivented. Might be a two compressor system. I'm expecting that it will list at $20K, maybe a bit higher. Sounds like the rebates will bring that down a bit.

We're six years into our solar installation and right now carry a pretty substantial credit with the electric company. Haven't paid a dime to them since the system was installed.  So a shift from window air conditioners and some NG heating will save us money each month.

We have a pretty efficient hydronic NG system, with a 26 year old boiler, and indirect hot water.  In the summer we spend $25/month on hot water, cooking and clothes drying, and last year averaged $100/month. Consistent burning has reduced that somewhat, although we only have one winter season to compare. At our old (smaller) house, we reduced our oil heat cost by 75% by burning.

 At some point we will replace the clothes dryer with an electric unit.

I have to figure out how I'm going to run five hydronic zones, all currently on Nest thermometers, and the multiple minisplit heads. I want similar control for the minisplits. I believe there's an interface available to connect the Mitsubishi control to the five wire system...just wondering whether I'm going to end up with duplicate Nests on some walls... Or maybe the Integrated Control will handle this for us.


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