# Insulation around an insert



## WARDNEAL (Aug 1, 2010)

Is it ok to put insulation around the sides, back and top of an Englander 13 nci?

Of course it would be non faced insulation. 

And I would have to keep it away from the secondary air intake and the little bit of non insulated 6 inch flex flue.

My hope is to keep more of the heat in the insert to help with blower air temp.

I have learned a lot from this site.

Thank for the input.

Neal


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## begreen (Aug 1, 2010)

Is there a damper block-off plate installed? That would be the first step. Then I'd try it out for awhile before considering insulation. 
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Why_damper_seal_is_needed/


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## WARDNEAL (Aug 1, 2010)

It does have the block off plate with insulation on the back side.

The liner is also insulated 6 inch 23 foot long with a clay tile cap adapter on the top.

Thanks.

Neal


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## DAKSY (Aug 1, 2010)

What does your manual say about doing that?
If it says that you can do it, go ahead,
& then let us know how it worked.
If it says you ABSOLUTELY cannot do it...DON'T.


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## WARDNEAL (Aug 1, 2010)

One more thing this is a large exterior wall masonary fireplace that the insert is in.

Thankfully it is on the South side of my house.

Still it is a big heat sink.

Thanks


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## WARDNEAL (Aug 1, 2010)

The manuel only adress the insulation around the back of the surrond.

My surround was cut to fit the fireplace opening as the flue pipe could not go forward enough to atach to the stove with out an adapter.

This was oked by Englander.

Thanks.

Neal


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## begreen (Aug 1, 2010)

Give Mike at Englander tech support a call and see what they say. It probably is ok, but I couldn't find anything in the manual about it.


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## cmonSTART (Aug 2, 2010)

Get a hold of some ceramic insulation or rock wool if you decide to try it.  Fiberglass would be a bad choice.  

Come to think of it I came across a great product recently.  It comes in a spray can and you spray it on the firebox of a fireplace to reflect more heat into the room.  The manufacturer mentioned it can help with an insert too.  I'll see if I can find the brochure I got.  I wanted to try it sometime.


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## cmonSTART (Aug 2, 2010)

I found my brochure.  Check out http://www.dynacote.com if you like.


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2010)

How is this stuff sold and applied? There doesn't appear to be much info about purchasing. The linked Venetech site doesn't list Dynacote. Is this a dealer only product, or did I miss a link somewhere?


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## cmonSTART (Aug 2, 2010)

It's in an aerosol can similar to spray paint and is applied similarly.  I think it's purchased through a dealer but really don't know for sure.  Some help I am.  You know as much as I do at this point, BeGreen.


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## WARDNEAL (Aug 2, 2010)

I already have the insulation. 

Don't want to buy anything else at this point.

Does anyone know how hot the exterior of the Englander 13 insert is on the sides, back and top with the blower on?

I do not think that it would be anywhere close to the melt point of firberglass but that is why I asked.

Thanks.

Neal


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2010)

cmonSTART said:
			
		

> It's in an aerosol can similar to spray paint and is applied similarly.  I think it's purchased through a dealer but really don't know for sure.  Some help I am.  You know as much as I do at this point, BeGreen.



Well, I am curious, but not extremely so. Just wondering what it's actual insulation value is as compared to fire brick, pumice fire brick, vermiculite board, etc. and how it's applied.


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## DAKSY (Aug 2, 2010)

> I already have the insulation.
> Don't want to buy anything else at this point.
> Does anyone know how hot the exterior of the Englander 13 insert is on the sides, back and top with the blower on?
> I do not think that it would be anywhere close to the melt point of fiberglass ...



Others here will disagree with me, but it's safe to use.  
The melting point of fiberglass is WAY above the temps your insert will reach.
We use it to block off damper areas around SS liners in EVERY installation of this type 
[/b]for the last 33 years [/b] & I've yet to see an issue with it.
I pulled my Regency 3100L out of my fireplace 5 years ago & the insulation was in exactly the same shape 
as far as color & texture goes.
You won't have any problems - go for it, as long as your installation manual doesn't say not to.
I will duck & run for cover now...


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## vvvv (Aug 2, 2010)

fglass stinks @ 300*f due to the binders.


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## DAKSY (Aug 2, 2010)

BLIMP said:
			
		

> fglass stinks @ 300*f due to the binders.


Never noticed it in my own home & never had any customers complain...


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## woodzilla (Aug 2, 2010)

I insulated my lopi top,sides and back as well. used kaowool 1/4 inch thick. Same heat sink problem from large masonry fireplace. It worked very well. The next time I pull my surround off I plan on adding another 1/4 inch layer.  ebay deals can be found for mineral insulation.


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## WARDNEAL (Aug 2, 2010)

I will have the surround sealed to the tile on the fireplace once I have everything the way I want it to be.

I may just have to try it and see if I like it or not.

Thanks.

Neal


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## cmonSTART (Aug 2, 2010)

Please let us know how it turns out!


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## Todd (Aug 3, 2010)

When I pulled out my old Superior Heatform out of my fireplace it had fiberglass insulation wrapped around the back and sides. I didn't see any melted or burnt insulation and it was in there for 35 years.


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## bren582 (Aug 5, 2010)

While I'm inclined to agree with you guys that regular fiberglass could be used safely in some aspects of the install like in the chimney chase and around the top plate section assuming your liner is insulated, I would not use it around the insert and the chimney liner exit from the stove as temperatures in those areas could expose the installation to high enough temperature to cause off gassing. It seems that temperatures above 300degF can be problematic for standard fiberglass insulation.
I've measure the heat level between the top of my insert and the blockoff plate during really good burns and it usually tops out at 200 to 250DegF range in my install. Move the thermometer right against the flue as it exits the stove and travels up through the blockoff plate and the temp easily exceeds 300degF. 
From an earlier post on the subject I tried to pass on suggestions based on some significant investigation into the matter.. I would like to offer my apologies to Daksy for my belligerent attitude in earlier posts on these matters. I'm no expert and don't have the time and experience in the trade that he and so many here do.. So here it goes again from some of my earlier post concerning standard fiberglass insulation: 


Fiberglass Insulation is not just glass. All commercially available spun glass fiber products contain binders, lubricants, anti-static compounds, corrosion inhibitors and sizing agents. These compounds having various melting points much lower than the point where fiberglass begins to soften and melt (approx 2000 Def F). 

 Kaowool or Ceramic Fiber blanket is a product made from 100% naturally occurring alumina-silica clay refractory fiber. it is white and odorless and resists temperatures as high as 2300 deg F. It will not go moldy or loose its effectiveness when exposed to moister. It is the product of choice for high heat applications and thus lends itself very well to fireplace projects.   

 Much has been written of the dangers of exposure to heat induced off gassing of compounds of every sort. Bottom line is its not good for you or your family to breath it.. Just consider this before you stuff that fiberglass insulation into a high heat application that it was never designed for..  

 Another important note: Wear good breathing protection when working with ceramic fiber blanket. it’s evil stuff. Much worse than regular fiberglass as the needle like fibers become air born very easily when worked with.. Once it’s in place no problem but the slightest movement of the stuff during installation makes the fibers go air born. Big itch factor to the skin and no good for the lungs. Possibly even a cancer causing agent in high enough levels of exposure. When I did my install I used a 3M respirator and ran a fan in the closest window to draw the air out of the room.


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