# Wood vs...Heat pump?



## Dustin (Jul 29, 2015)

Folks, 

After burning wood and pellets as a primary source of heat for the past 8 years, we moved. 

Our new to us house has a propane fireplace, and an electric central furnace.

I already miss my stove(s), but, with a new baby here in less then 20 days, my wife is NOT on board with a wood stove at this point in our lives. Her main concern is the time it takes me to C/S/S, the mess, and all the other stuff that comes with it. She LOVED wood heat when it was just us, that was easy, we didn't mind coming home to a cold house after I worked 14 hours and she worked 12. But, with a new baby, that obviously changes. 

Anyway, I guess I'm just looking for some advice / other experience to calm me down a little. 

Our new to us home is about 1800 square feet. About 1000 upstairs and 800 downstairs. The downstairs is a finished daylight basement, most of it is underground. (Really nice this summer!) The downstairs has a propane fireplace. It's a fairly nice Heat n Glo with a blower, but I don't really consider this a heating source, maybe I'll be proved wrong when I use it. 

The entire home heating system consists of a 15 year old electric furnace. The house is ducted with ports (if thats what you call them) in every room.

The power company says that the previous owners spent about 250 to 300 bucks a month during the winter. Wow! our rate is 0.064Kwh Granted, they were about 80 years old and probably kept it about 90 in here. Also, they had single pane aluminum windows which I just had replaced this week. 

Anyway, I got a quote for a full install of a heat pump and new air handler. This will all connect up to our current duct work. It's gonna run me about 6500 before the power companies 1500 dollar rebate for installing it. 

I guess my question is, am I crazy? I have never, ever owned a home with central heating / cooling. It's always been wood or pellets. I'm looking to keep the house around 70 and not pay 300 bucks a month to heat it.

Luckily in northwest Oregon, we have a pretty mild winter.

Thoughts?


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## moey (Jul 29, 2015)

Assuming your electric rate you quoted of .065 kw/hr is all inclusive Id vote heavily on a heat pump and not look back.


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## Z33 (Jul 29, 2015)

moey said:


> Assuming your electric rate you quoted of .065 kw/hr is all inclusive Id vote heavily on a heat pump and not look back.




I am doubting this is the case. His rate my be .065 but once all the other charges are figured in I bet he is closer to .10.

I would get a few more quotes on your system. Unless you got some 18 seer super efficent multi speed heat pump it seems a little high since they are using existing duct-work.

I just replaced a 2.5 Ton Goodman heat pump here in Atlanta for 2100 bucks using the existing duct work


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## prezes13 (Jul 29, 2015)

It's just my opinion but I would rather put a nice cat stove like an ashford 30 from bk and even if I had to feed with compressed wood fuel I would rather do that than paying electric company.


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## mellow (Jul 29, 2015)

I put a goodman heat pump system in 5 years ago, I use it till the temperatures consistently drop to the low 30's, then I will fire up the the insert to burn 24/7.

I am cold if rely on the heat pump set at 68 degrees (to cheap to go higher),  the wife actually is the one bugging me to start burning, usually try to hold out till end of November around here.

I would say try the current setup for a season then make the changes the next year, start stocking up on wood now so you will have it if you do go that route.


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## Highbeam (Jul 29, 2015)

Yes, I'm from near the area and you won't get an actual 6.5 cents per kwh unless you live in eastern Washington next to a hydro dam with a local power company. But maybe the OP is right. Use the fuel cost calculator on this site. Enter in your real power rate and the price of our excellent local pellets. Since either a pellet stove or heat pump will both cost the same for install, you can leave out equipment cost.

Now with an electric heat pump you will generally get better than 100% efficiency, often 300% is attainable but when it is real cold your home will be heated by resistance heat automatically. Don't forget about duct losses if you have ducts in the attic that can amount to 15+%.

After that you will know you cost per btu for heat for the two different fuels.

You can always buy the heat pump and later on add the pellet stove. Stage one for me would be a nice pellet stove (or other wood burner) and the resistance furnace for backup. Cheap and easy.


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## PWash (Jul 29, 2015)

I'd get the heat pump installed.  Is there a chance the $250 cost was a subsidized/lower rate payment for the elderly occupants?  Sometimes people on fixed income get lower special rates from the power company..
With a heatpump you will be more comfortable and also increase resale value of the house.  Also theres no reason you couldnt supplement with wood heat in the future.


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## billb3 (Jul 29, 2015)

If the heat pump is going to recover that 5K investment via savings within 5 years I'd do it.


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## Dustin (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks for the info guys. 

The 0.064 kWh comes from my power bill I'm staring at. I'm serviced by a PUD. They do hit me with an 8 dollar residential customer charge, but that appears to be the only other charge. 

This heat pump bid was the lowest. I had some companies wanting about 8,500 for essentially the same unit. 

I would love to throw a wood stove in and call it a day but the wife won't buy off on it. 

So the consensus is I can't really go wrong putting a heat pump in? Anyone ever run one for their only source of heat? If you did how was it? 

I'm thinking, I buy this heat pump and eventually end up with wood as well. I have never done it, but I imagine using wood when you want too as a supplement, instead of a have too is a totally different ball game


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## peakbagger (Jul 29, 2015)

It really depends on your ductwork. Leaky ductwork run outside of insulated space (in attic or under house) can eat up half your heating and cooling. Its worth getting an energy audit and seeing how much heat is being wasted. Dependiing on your layout go with a couple of minisplits. They tend to be more efficient than standard heat pumps and there is no duct loss. Its also easy to zone the spaces.


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## moey (Jul 29, 2015)

Any idea what the previous owners kept the heat at? If they spent $250-$300 a month thats not bad youd be looking at about a 1/3 to 1/2 of that per month if they kept it at a reasonable temp with a new heat pump.


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## Highbeam (Jul 29, 2015)

Dustin said:


> Anyone ever run one for their only source of heat?



Growing up we did it in the Puget sound region. The thing to remember about a central heat pump is that the air handler is equipped with a backup resistance heat coil that kicks on during defrost cyles and when the heat pump is unable to satisfy the thermostat. It's like two heating systems in one. This means that regardless of outside temperature, you will be able to heat your home. When that backup resistance coil kicks on you are burning straight electricity at 100% efficiency which is more expensive than the heat pump at 300% efficiency but it is seldom that your heat pump will be unable to keep up in the PNW.



Dustin said:


> The 0.064 kWh comes from my power bill I'm staring at.



So take the total dollars charged on that bill and divide it by the total kwh burned on that bill to come up with your cost per kwh. Don't let them trick you with a dozen little charges and taxes and tiers.


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## Grisu (Jul 29, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> So take the total dollars charged on that bill and divide it by the total kwh burned on that bill to come up with your cost per kwh. Don't let them trick you with a dozen little charges and taxes and tiers.



I have seen that recommendation already a few times here but it just does not make sense if you want to calculate how much you can save by reducing your consumption or you would need to pay by adding to it. The only charges worth considering are the ones that change with the kWh used. The "fixed" part is just that. Unless someone will be going off the grid he/she will pay that in any scenario. If the OP pays 6.4 cents per kWh he needs to use that to estimate his savings when consuming less through the heatpump.


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## Highbeam (Jul 29, 2015)

Grisu said:


> I have seen that recommendation already a few times here but it just does not make sense if you want to calculate how much you can save by reducing your consumption or you would need to pay by adding to it. The only charges worth considering are the ones that change with the kWh used. The "fixed" part is just that. Unless someone will be going off the grid he/she will pay that in any scenario. If the OP pays 6.4 cents per kWh he needs to use that to estimate his savings when consuming less through the heatpump.



Meh, I have half a dozen other "per kwh" costs on my bill other than the "cost of electricity". Taxes for instance are a % of the bill. If you are able to determine which costs are fixed and which are consumption dependent then that certainly sounds ideal.

They are pretty tricky here in that the first 600 kwh are billed at a lower rate so you have a benefit to keep under that 600.


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## Wolves1 (Jul 29, 2015)

You can keep the electric furnace install a nest thermostat, but in a wood stove, use the nest to turn the heat from a phone before you come home. You come home to a warm house then start a fire and turn furnace off. Just trying to figure out a way to sell the wife.


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## billb3 (Jul 29, 2015)

Hah! My electricity 'cost' is  15¢ per. All those  little 'insignificant' incidentals add up to an additional 12.3¢ for a total of 27.3¢/kWh.
Wish we could toss salmon and wildlife under the bridge for cheap hydro power here. Not really. Maybe by 2030 there will be subsidized clean coal and wood pellets will be cheap again.


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## begreen (Jul 29, 2015)

Dustin. Your wife is being practical. Wood heat can come in a few years. What make and model heat pump was the quote for?


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## Oldman47 (Jul 29, 2015)

In a mild climate like yours, with overnight lows well above 0ºF, a heat pump can give very nice results. In extreme climates like mine the backup electric strip heaters come on way too often and are very inefficient. A heat pump works by pulling heat from the outside into the house. It just can't do that much at all below zero so you end up running the strip heaters as well.


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## Dustin (Jul 30, 2015)

begreen said:


> Dustin. Your wife is being practical. Wood heat can come in a few years. What make and model heat pump was the quote for?



To answer another question, all of my duct work is on heated or cooled spaces. Luckily, nothing runs in the attic or under the house. The duct work is right smack dab between a drop ceiling and the upstairs floor. I imagine this helps...

Begreen, we got quoted for a "Rudd" The reviews online look pretty good. We were also quoted for a "York" which increased our cost by a bit...


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## begreen (Jul 30, 2015)

Ruud is a long-time furnace mfg. but not known for great heatpumps. It's more like a decent value line, like Rheem. That said, it looks like their 2 stage Ultra Series might be worth looking at. Their single stage units are pretty generic. Note that a good unit will cost more initially, but it will likely outperform cheaper units and will be quieter. As a rough heating performance guide look for units with the highest hspf numbers. When comparing quotes make sure you are comparing relatively same design systems. A more efficient 2 speed compressor, variable speed air handler, etc. can boost the price quickly.


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## JA600L (Jul 30, 2015)

My house had an oil boiler and all the lines.  Somebody before me pulled the boiler and installed a lux air heat pump.

On a 90+ degree day like yesterday it did absolutely fantastic for air conditioning.  However,  it isn't worth its weight in scrap metal when it's 10 degrees outside.

This is the primary issue with heat pumps.  In heat mode the evaporator is switched to the outside.  For an evaporator to do its job it has to extract heat from the outside air.  How is it going to do that on a 10 degree day?  Not to mention the defrost cycle.  The compressor has to shut off or it will freeze the lines. Then it has to reverse, defrost,  air condition your house,  while turning the auxiliary on.

It works well in air conditioning mode because the condenser is then outside and that needs to extract cooler air.  At 140 degrees, it has plenty of cooler air available to it.

Heat pumps are fantastic for mild weather.  Just be prepared for the auxiliary to come on when temperatures dip.

This is where the woodstove comes in for me.  Having wood heat for the cold days and a heat pump for the mild days is hard to beat.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 30, 2015)

You already have the duct work and are in a mild climate.   This'd give you A/C as well.  Doesn't sound like you already have a flue.  Electricity seems relatively cheap.  Seems obvious to me.


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## Highbeam (Jul 30, 2015)

velvetfoot said:


> You already have the duct work and are in a mild climate.   This'd give you A/C as well.  Doesn't sound like you already have a flue.  Electricity seems relatively cheap.  Seems obvious to me.



Agreed. And the duct work being all interior means you can actually get some very good efficiency.

In our climate, PNW, zillions of folks use a heat pump with resistance coil backup for primary heat. The resistance coils are 100% efficient and the heat pump is always above 100% and up to 300-400% efficient when temps are mild. Your heat system will be automatic, thermostatic, will filter the air, be quiet, almost no maintenance, and will work as long as the power is on. If you're sick, out of wood, away from the house, or just lazy, the heat pump will keep your home warm.

Now to save money, provide a backup,  and for pure fun you can add a wood heat source. This will be cheaper to run and every stick of wood you burn is a stick less power that your heat pump will use. You can save a couple bucks a year or you can be awesome and never run your heat pump except for testing it out or for AC in the summer.

Future buyers of your home will pay more to have that heat pump installed. It adds significant value, more than the cost of install. Most folks are not willing to heat with wood.


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## begreen (Jul 30, 2015)

Even if the ductwork is interior it should be sealed and then insulated to get the best performance from the heat pump. Insulation will stop heat loss to the basement and will deliver warmer air from the registers.


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## Retreadsme (Jul 30, 2015)

I agree with begreen about Ruud vs Rheem.  One of my units was replaced two years ago with a Goodman which is also a middle of the road mfg, but I got the top of the line heat pump, multi-speed air-handler, etc etc.   I find that typical air cooled heat pumps are efficient for heat down to approx. 35 degrees F ambient air.   Anything cooler and the efficiency starts to drop and ye ole' heat strips kick on making Forked Deer Electric Coop smile!!    Like a few others have said - IMO - with a baby knocking on the door and wife being more comfortable with non-wood primary heat, take the rebate today and have the new system installed ASAP.

Wood heat is nice, but it's still basically a space heater and if you get power for less than 10 cents/kwh - remind me not to invest in your power provider!


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## begreen (Jul 30, 2015)

Our heat pump is an American Standard Heritage 16. It has a 2 stage compressor. The set point for the electric strip heaters is 24F. SEER 17 HSPF 9.2.


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## Highbeam (Jul 31, 2015)

begreen said:


> Our heat pump is an American Standard Heritage 16. It has a 2 stage compressor. The set point for the electric strip heaters is 24F. SEER 17 HSPF 9.2.



And unlike the minisplit systems that can have hspf ratings well into the teens, the conventional ducted heat pumps look "normal" in your house.


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## moey (Jul 31, 2015)

With those electric rates I would not be that concerned about strip heat in your locale. Most folks who complain about heat pumps and strip heat pay twice kw/hr that you would be.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 31, 2015)

How about something like this?
http://www.carrier.com/homecomfort/en/us/products/heat-pumps/25vna0/


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## begreen (Jul 31, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> And unlike the minisplit systems that can have hspf ratings well into the teens, the conventional ducted heat pumps look "normal" in your house.


Yes, ours was installed 8 yrs ago when most of the mini-split systems were not available locally. It was leading edge for a central system. Only Sanyo had a ducted mini-split sold in our region and we would have been the first to try it. Technology and availability of higher efficiency units has greatly improved since then. Still, for our climate our system works quite well.


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## planner steve (Aug 2, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> Agreed. And the duct work being all interior means you can actually get some very good efficiency.
> 
> In our climate, PNW, zillions of folks use a heat pump with resistance coil backup for primary heat. The resistance coils are 100% efficient and the heat pump is always above 100% and up to 300-400% efficient when temps are mild. Your heat system will be automatic, thermostatic, will filter the air, be quiet, almost no maintenance, and will work as long as the power is on. If you're sick, out of wood, away from the house, or just lazy, the heat pump will keep your home warm.
> 
> ...


Highbeams last point is key.  While we all love heating with wood, most people who might eventually buy your house won't. You sound like this might not be your last house so resale value is important.  I have a heat pump and insert in your climate.  I love the AC right now.  One can heat with wood for lower cost here, but only if you hunt for very low cost wood.  Your home configuration also might not work well with wood stove, might be hard to get heat between levels.  Go with the heat pump.


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## freebe (Aug 2, 2015)

I updated my old electric furnace/heat pump a few years ago with a Carrier.  The biggest difference I've found is newer heatpumps are efficient to 0 degrees.  The furnace itself hardly runs.  I also burn wood all winter long to help out.

Hope this helps,
freebe


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## Osagebndr (Aug 2, 2015)

I have a Trane setup and burn wood all winter and it never runs ( on purpose). A $250-300 heat bill is awesome , mine runs $650-900 depending on the temps with just the furnace thus I burn wood and I pay $220-280 monthly


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## NickDL (Aug 2, 2015)

Our own personal opinion is that we hate having a heat pump. Our last home & current home have one and it doesn't even compare to gas heat that we grew up with. We feel that our house always feels a bit chilly with the thermostat set at 68°. Our bills this winter were as high as $600 in Pennsylvania. I forget what we pay for electric, but it is a pretty good price. 

If you have a propane fireplace, then I would consider having the heat pump with a propane backup for those nights when it's really cold. 

A propane fireplace can put out a good bit of heat. We used to have one in the old house & we used that instead of the heat pump, but boy did it cost us. Propane was expensive for that use, but so much warmer. 

As others have said, look at resale value down the road. Good luck.


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2015)

A lot of folks back east have older, inefficient heat pumps. The newer units are quieter and better. How old is your heat pump Nick and what is its heating efficiency rating?


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2015)

Moving thread to the green room. It is more about heat pumps than wood heat.


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## JA600L (Aug 2, 2015)

I realize the new ones are much more efficient,  but how does that help the problem of the outside air being colder then the evaporator?  The evaporator needs to extract heat from the air and can't freeze the lines.


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## NickDL (Aug 2, 2015)

begreen said:


> A lot of folks back east have older, inefficient heat pumps. The newer units are quieter and better. How old is your heat pump Nick and what is its heating efficiency rating?


 Our current unit is at least 6 years old, we've been in this house for only 4 years. I'm not completely sure of it's efficiency off the top of my head, I believe that it's a middle of the road system when I looked it up. The unit is quiet and works. As far as air conditioning, it works really well. The house just never has that warm toasty feeling, unless of course the strips are heating the house, then we're talking expensive. 

Our old home we put in a Trane 14 seer unit that worked really well, especially for A/C. Again, it just didn't have that warm toasty feeling that we grew up with in our gas heated homes.


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2015)

http://cshvac.com/2011/12/16/myths-about-heat-pump-heating/

The compressor technology in older heat pumps was very inefficient and blower speeds had to be at optimal levels to try and keep efficiencies as high as possible.  The end result was lukewarm air and moderately high electrical costs at best that increased dramatically as temperatures dropped.

Today’s more efficient compressors, variable speed blowers and newer refrigerant allows us to have high efficient heat pumps and a great deal of comfort too. Modern systems use high efficient compressors that use a fraction of electricity as older models.  They also use a newer refrigerant which does a better job of extracting heat from the air outside even at very low temperatures.  Then with variable speed blowers the system can slow the air down to allow it more time to pick up heat from the heat pump and make the air warmer.  These systems will take this a step further and slow down the air proportional to the outdoor temperature to make sure the temperature out of the vents stays high even at low outside temperatures (Carrier calls this ComfortHeat).


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2015)

NickDL said:


> Our old home we put in a Trane 14 seer unit that worked really well, especially for A/C. Again, it just didn't have that warm toasty feeling that we grew up with in our gas heated homes.


A lot of heat pumps are optimized for cooling and only so so for heating. It's important to select one with excellent heating efficiency if that is the primary task. Ours does fine down to 24F. There are better units now on the market. For that warm and toasty feeling we use wood.


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## JA600L (Aug 2, 2015)

Mine is 8 years old as well.  I really think it's a matter of your climate. Where I live most of the winter is well below 24f. A lot of it is in the single digits and teens. In this kind of a climate you just can't expect much out of a heat pump.  On a 0 degree morning it simply doesn't work.


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## begreen (Aug 2, 2015)

For sure they are not for all locations. The OP is in Western OR where heatpumps work well. A modern high efficiency heat pump will work well down to around zero degrees. Ours is decent, but nothing compared to what good mini-splits can do. I checked on a local old farmhouse that I recommended get a heat pump when it was 14F outside. Inside it was a comfy 72F with their Fujitsu unit quietly cruising along.

Not sure about the Carrier central AC mentioned earlier but that looks good on paper too.


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## woodgeek (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm late to the party, but vote for some sort of heat pump, but don't see a big rush.  In Western OR even a basic unit (properly sized and installed) will get a seasonal COP of 2.2-2.5, meaning it will cut that electric bill in more than half, but the savings might not be that compelling.

One BIG question for the OP is the size....how many 'tons'?  How did the installer estimate the size needed?  A lot of folks who complain 'my heatpump doesn't work below 32°' actually have an undersized unit.

Re the $6500 cost...that's the cheapest I would get here for a 3-4 ton install with preexisting ducts, but I live in a HCOL area.

With the mild climate (what are the HDDs?) and cheap (and green) electricity, it might be a good idea to check the financials.  If the OP is spending $1500/year on elec for strip heat, the HP might save $800/yr, and then needs 8 years to pay back.  And it might last 10 to 15?

Its just as possible that the place could benefit from some air-sealing (probably needed) and insulating (might not be needed).  This could drop the heating bill 30-50%, depending on the vintage of the house (??), and would cost less than $6500 I would think.  After that work is done, collect a season of heating bills with the elec strip, and see if a single mini might cover the house (with an install cost closer to $3k)

IOW, its possible that $3k for energy eff work and $3k for a mini might drop your heating bills by 70-75%, and pay back in 5 years and in greater comfort.  The ductwork blower could be used for air circulation if needed.


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## Highbeam (Aug 3, 2015)

JA600L said:


> I realize the new ones are much more efficient,  but how does that help the problem of the outside air being colder then the evaporator?  The evaporator needs to extract heat from the air and can't freeze the lines.



The coolant is not water. It won't freeze in the lines. All that has to happen is that the evaporator has to be able to see coolant colder than the outside air so that the coolant is warmed by the outside air. That means if the outside air is 0 degrees, the coolant needs to be below zero in order to be warmed up. These things work well below zero, some down into the negative teens.

We're bumping into a marketing/business barrier and not a technological barrier as far as low temp heat pumps are concerned. When you can run a minisplit heat pump at 100% output to 0 degrees F, but most conventional heat pumps revert to backup heat near 20 degrees F you know it is just because the conventional heat pump guys haven't applied the technology yet.

There will also come a time when some smart guy successfully applies this technology to heat water for boilers and domestic in North Aerica. They do it in other countries using high pressure CO2 as the coolant.


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## JA600L (Aug 3, 2015)

It won't freeze in the lines but it can freeze the condensation on the outside of the evaporator.  I realize there is a lot I don't know about modern heat pumps.  I enjoy heating with wood anyway. Maybe someday I will upgrade the heat pump.  It's hard to justify when my electric bill hits only $75 a month in the summer and around $50 in the coldest parts of the winter burning wood.


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## woodgeek (Aug 3, 2015)

JA600L said:


> It won't freeze in the lines but it can freeze the condensation on the outside of the evaporator.  I realize there is a lot I don't know about modern heat pumps.  I enjoy heating with wood anyway. Maybe someday I will upgrade the heat pump.  It's hard to justify when my electric bill hits only $75 a month in the summer and around $50 in the coldest parts of the winter burning wood.



Indeed.  Which is why they run defrost cycles below 35-40°F outdoor temp.  This eats 20-30% of the efficiency, depending on the engineering and settings of the unit.


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## iamlucky13 (Aug 3, 2015)

Z33 said:


> I am doubting this is the case. His rate my be .065 but once all the other charges are figured in I bet he is closer to .10.



Base charges don't matter if none of his alternative options avoid them. He pays them regardless of how much or little electricity he uses.

I estimate his normalized heating cost for the various options as follows, including duct losses:

Electric furnace ($0.065/kWh, including duct loss) - $24 / million BTU
Propane room heater ($2.50/gallon, exhaust losses only) - $29 / million BTU
Heat Pump ($0.065/kWh, 2.0 average effective COP, including duct loss) - $10 / million BTU
EPA rated wood stove ($200/cord douglas fir, delivered split or value of time to C/S/S) -  $12 / million BTU

You can see from these estimates why my goal is to burn wood whenever the temperature gets cold enough my auxiliary heat kicks in. In that scenario, the comparison is effectively against the electric furnace cost, not the heat pump cost.



NickDL said:


> The house just never has that warm toasty feeling, unless of course the strips are heating the house, then we're talking expensive.



This is one of the most common complaints with heat pumps, even newer units with variable speed blowers. The issue is that although the air coming out of the registers is warmer than the room air by 20-25 degrees, it's usually still cooler than body temperature (85-90 degrees vs. 98.6 degrees). This means the slight breeze from the registers feels cool, and that sensation of coolness tends to persist even after the heat pump shuts off. In contrast, the air coming out of the registers from a furnace will be more like 110 degrees, so being above body temperature it feels nice and warm.

As a result, you usually don't have the same comfort level with a heat pump unless you turn the thermostat up a degree or two relative to what feels comfortable with a furnace. It's still more efficient, but that does cut into the efficiency slightly.

That said, I throw another vote to the OP in favor of the heat pump. Even accounting for the times the backup heat strips turn on and heat lost through the ducts, a total seasonal effective coefficient of performance of 2 or better (half the heating bill) should be achievable even with a single stage heat pump. $6500 sounds pretty good in this region. My 2 ton Goodman heat pump came to $6900 including Washington sales tax and one of the better Honeywell thermostats. That price in the Seattle area gets you an installer who cuts a few corners.

Worry about the wood stove later. Once you do have a chance to return to wood heating, I think you'll like the convenience of the heat pump complemented by the cold weather comfort of the wood stove.

For an anecdotal experience: My electric rate is 9.5 cents/kWh (no base charge). I'm in NW Washington, so the weather is similar. My house is 1800 square feet, moderately insulated with basic vinyl double pane windows and 2x4 construction, although I've got some insulating left to do. My peak winter bills have been about $150 per month over my minimum summer bills, with the thermostat usually at 68 degrees when we're home. I've been intending to shift more of my heating to wood, but due mainly to being very busy, I only burned 1/2 cord last winter.


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## iamlucky13 (Aug 3, 2015)

woodgeek said:


> Indeed.  Which is why they run defrost cycles below 35-40°F outdoor temp.  This eats 20-30% of the efficiency, depending on the engineering and settings of the unit.



Since the alternative is worse - an iced over heat pump would lose far more efficiency - it's hardly worth discussing how the defrost cycle affects efficiency. It simply comes with the territory. The main lesson is to compare the HSPF ratings, which attempt to account for defrosts, rather than the SEER rating.


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## woodgeek (Aug 4, 2015)

iamlucky13 said:


> Since the alternative is worse - an iced over heat pump would lose far more efficiency - it's hardly worth discussing how the defrost cycle affects efficiency. It simply comes with the territory. The main lesson is to compare the HSPF ratings, which attempt to account for defrosts, rather than the SEER rating.



Agreed.  BUT, when using the HSPF to compute expected energy costs (since the units of HSPF are kBTU/kWh), keep in mind that your actual HSPF may be higher or lower than the rating, depending on whether your climate is warmer or colder than the reference climate.  That reference is roughly the same climate as Atlanta, GA (~1200 HDD). Where I am (~4000 HDD), observed HSPFs are roughly 20% lower than the nominal rating.


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## peakbagger (Aug 4, 2015)

I can attest my heat pump will put out warm air to 10 below but its capacity is limited. Its definitely something you set and let run versus trying to adjust over the course of a day. The air is definitely warm not hot. My power is "free" from net metering but as the HSPF drops there is some point where some folks probably would elect to use radiant space heaters over the mini split.

One thing to consider is that it is quite noticeable the amount of defrost cycles when the relative humidity is high in cold weather. During cold dry weather, I rarely hear a defrost cycle but during damp wet snow events I hear it defrosting far more often. There are optional baffle structures that are available on some models to keep snow from blowing on the coils but they do nothing for damp air on supercooled surface. Given the Northwest reputation of a wetter climate, I expect the useful low temperature range may be a bit more limited.

I currently have one 12K unit that heats my fairly tight 2 story house down to about 30 degrees. I plan to replace an older mini split AC unit with  heat pump version on my second floor office and use that to heat the office rather than heating the entire house.


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## Highbeam (Aug 4, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> Given the Northwest reputation of a wetter climate, I expect the useful low temperature range may be a bit more limited.



We are generally warm and wet. When we do get cold, really cold, we are also very dry at least with regards to relative humidity.


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## iamlucky13 (Aug 4, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> I can attest my heat pump will put out warm air to 10 below but its capacity is limited.



If you look up the data sheet on your model and keep in mind that building heat loss increases as the outside temperature drops, this makes perfect sense.

At the seasonal design temperature of 47 degrees on mine, it achieves its rated 2 ton capacity of 24,000 BTU/hr. I think the installer chose a balance point (heat loss equals heat pump capacity) of 37 degrees, at which temperature the manufacturer rates the heat pump for a little over 20,000 BTU/hr.

Based on how the heat pump keeps up, I've noticed the actual balance point seems to vary between 30 and 36 degrees. When it's cloudy and calm, the heat pump keeps up at much lower temperatures. When it's windy or clear with dry air, (the latter maximizes radiant heat loss), I see the auxiliary heat kick in at higher temperatures.

So I'm guessing on average my actual balance point is around 33 degrees and the heat loss at that temperature around 19,500 BTU/hr.

At 15 degrees, which is a temperature we usually only see once or twice a year in this area, it's only rated for 15,000 BTU/hr. At that temperature, my heat loss is probably somewhere in the 25-30,000 BTU/hr range, so it's obvious why the auxiliary heat is needed.

Since the 15 kW heat strips are equivalent to 51,000 BTU/hr, it's also obvious how they're able to warm the house up so quickly when they kick on.



peakbagger said:


> During cold dry weather, I rarely hear a defrost cycle but during damp wet snow events I hear it defrosting far more often.



I haven't noticed the same with mine - I notice lots of defrost cycles when it's cold,regardless of humidity, and I think it was probably a design compromise - mine doesn't have a humidity sensor. I was recently thinking that would have been an upgrade that could allow a well programmed controller to better predict how often defrosts were really needed. It sounds like some may already have that feature.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 4, 2015)

So, you fire up wood boiler when temps get below 30 degrees?


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## JA600L (Aug 4, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> I can attest my heat pump will put out warm air to 10 below but its capacity is limited.



Just to clarify,  at this point does the auxiliary come on at all?  My heat pump will run too at those temps, but when it falls 2 degrees from the setpoint it kicks auxiliary on. Which is going to happen often at that temperature.


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## peakbagger (Aug 4, 2015)

There is no auxiliary heater on my Mitsubishi mini split. When it gets that cold my wood boiler storage is charged up and the thermostat is set to a lower setpoint and that kicks in. I am not representing a 1 ton minisplit as a winter time solution in northern New Hampshire but I am impressed as to what it can put out. My house has a lot of passive gain on sunny days so the minisplit is getting help from the sun. I usually shut it down if its going to be below 30 at night and run the boiler and turn it back on in the AM.


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## Highbeam (Aug 5, 2015)

JA600L said:


> Just to clarify,  at this point does the auxiliary come on at all?  My heat pump will run too at those temps, but when it falls 2 degrees from the setpoint it kicks auxiliary on. Which is going to happen often at that temperature.



There are minisplits and then there are conventional split system heat pumps that use an air handler and ducts. The technology is much farther advanced on the minisplits. The minis generally don't have backup resistance coils and can put out full rated output at 5 degrees above zero, the conventional heat pumps can't do that yet.

If you were super serious about using a heat pump to heat your home in temps below zero then you can do it by oversizing your equipment. There is always some heat to be extracted from the outside air. Much cheaper (equipment cost) would be a resistance heater of some sort that can kick on and make up the difference.


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## semipro (Aug 5, 2015)

Or go ground-source HP and don't worry about air temps...


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## Highbeam (Aug 5, 2015)

For one billion dollars....


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## semipro (Aug 5, 2015)

Yes, one billion dollars....


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## STIHLY DAN (Aug 5, 2015)

There are more options than what has been posted. Do your homework it will be worth it. Lots of not so good info on this thread.


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## Ashful (Aug 6, 2015)

NickDL said:


> Our own personal opinion is that we hate having a heat pump. Our last home & current home have one and it doesn't even compare to gas heat that we grew up with. We feel that our house always feels a bit chilly with the thermostat set at 68°. Our bills this winter were as high as $600 in Pennsylvania. I forget what we pay for electric, but it is a pretty good price.


Souderton = PPL = $.168/kW, at my rate of use.


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## semipro (Aug 6, 2015)

Back to the original post:
I haven't seen natural gas mentioned as an option. 
Dustin, do you have access to NG?  I'm guessing "no" since your fireplace downstairs is propane.  Given the glut of NG and how nicely it heats I'd consider it if available.
BTW, if the fireplace is a direct vent unit it can be quite a capable heater especially for backup. .  Also, if propane now and NG becomes available it can be easily re-jetted for NG.


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## STIHLY DAN (Aug 6, 2015)

Highbeam said:


> That's a lame post. Perhaps you can be less insulting and more constructive. What do you have to contribute? What are the additional and perhaps better options? I know that I would love to hear your thoughts.



Ok. There are conventional heat pumps that modulate and work to below zero. There are ducted mini splits that work below zero. There are mini splits that replace conventional air handlers but still work like a ductless split. There are mini splits that heat water. There are heat pump water heaters. Some mini splits that work below zero but capacity is cut in 1/2 and cop is low. There are mini splits that work below zero with little capacity loss while retaining cop. There are mini splits that work below zero and retain capacity but have much lower cop. Each scenario has a different effect on the wallet. There are a crap ton of different units out there that you have to take your time and read every spec. Many make info misleading.  For mini splits The larger the unit the less efficient it is, But with heat pump the larger the better for capacity reasons as it is hard to oversize anymore.


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## begreen (Aug 6, 2015)

Do you have a heat pump installation in NH? If yes, what is it and how is it working out?


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## moey (Aug 6, 2015)

begreen said:


> Do you have a heat pump installation in NH? If yes, what is it and how is it working out?



I have a ground source heat pump it cost about $800-$900 a year for heat and hot water ( winter months only for hot water ). Our electric rates are about .14 kw/hr. It cost about 20k to have installed including ductwork. I dont run the A/C much and have never noticed a cost associated with the A/C. I live in interior Maine our house is about 3000 sq/ft of conditioned space. It was not any more expensive then having a conventional oil or propane system installed along with central A/C and ductwork.


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## maverick06 (Aug 18, 2015)

i have a heat pump in PA, its very cheap to run. I still burn as primary heat, but the heatpump covers the shoulder season, and is infinitely better than the oil in the house for the times I am not using the stove. highly recommend, relative to the oil, it paid for its self really fast, like 2 or 3 years, even with burning... oil is expensive. have a trane xr14, good unit


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## DBCOOPER (Oct 3, 2015)

Late to the party but I have a few observations. An all electric furnace is typically installed with all metal non insulated duct work. It will sweat if a heat pump is running in cooling mode. This may or may not be the case here.Mini splits are nice but I've decided no to install them due to what I have seen at work. They are lined inside with Styrofoam that allows the growth of mold in areas that are inaccessible without complete disassemble. I have seen this in both ceiling mounted and wall mounted units. In the ceiling mounted unit I saw it when we took it apart to get to the blocked drain pan. In the wall mounted I saw it when it was cut apart to scrap the coil.


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## begreen (Oct 3, 2015)

maverick06 said:


> i have a heat pump in PA, its very cheap to run. I still burn as primary heat, but the heatpump covers the shoulder season, and is infinitely better than the oil in the house for the times I am not using the stove. highly recommend, relative to the oil, it paid for its self really fast, like 2 or 3 years, even with burning... oil is expensive. have a trane xr14, good unit


That is how we run our system as well. It's great for our several months of shoulder season weather. Our system is an American Standard Heritage 16.


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## mellow (Oct 5, 2015)

DBCOOPER said:


> They are lined inside with Styrofoam that allows the growth of mold in areas that are inaccessible without complete disassemble.



You can power wash them, I have to do the same with PTAC units.


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## DBCOOPER (Oct 23, 2015)

mellow said:


> You can power wash them, I have to do the same with PTAC units.



Can't see me doing that in my living room...


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