# Grundfos Pump, Taco flanges?



## HeatFarmer (Jan 20, 2012)

So I'm thinking my Taco 0010--IFC 3-speed just isn't cutting it as the circulation pump on my boiler loop. My head is running around 12-13 feet, which is over the 10ft head range for the pump. It came with the boiler, so I figured I'd give it a shot. However, even at speed 3 I just don't think it is moving enough flow to heat storage. 

I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.

I have an Alpha on the other end which is doing this same lift in the primary loop, from the cellar, back up 12 feet to the boiler loop, running around 13gpm & moving water at 48watts. It's range is up to 19ft of head and 21gpm max.

My question is, can I get another Alpha and slip it into the Taco flanges I have already installed, or do I have to really break down the system and swap flanges as well??


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## goosegunner (Jan 20, 2012)

HeatFarmer said:
			
		

> So I'm thinking my Taco 0010--IFC 3-speed just isn't cutting it as the circulation pump on my boiler loop. My head is running around 12-13 feet, which is over the 10ft head range for the pump. It came with the boiler, so I figured I'd give it a shot. However, even at speed 3 I just don't think it is moving enough flow to heat storage.
> 
> I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.
> 
> ...



How many gpm will the alpa move at your 12-13 ft of head?


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## taxidermist (Jan 20, 2012)

You need to try and close your bypass ball valve More or all the way. I close mine all the way when I know my return water is above 140* Or just leave it open just a hair. a taco 10 should be fine for your boiler. I dont get my storage much over 185* with the boiler control set to 195*


Rob


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 20, 2012)

GG, I have an Alpha doing almost the same lift on the house side of the system & it is running in the 11-13gpm range circulating on the primary loop. This would appear to be the Max I can get at this head. If I need more GPM for an EKO 60, then I'll have to choose another pump, like a Taco 011 or Grundfos UP26-99F which is way more expensive....


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 20, 2012)

taxidermist said:
			
		

> You need to try and close your bypass ball valve More or all the way. I close mine all the way when I know my return water is above 140* Or just leave it open just a hair. a taco 10 should be fine for your boiler. I dont get my storage much over 185* with the boiler control set to 195*
> 
> 
> Rob



I have my bypass cracked a red-one....I'll throw it all the way closed when I walk by it next.
I was really hoping to see less than a 15 or 10Âº difference in temp between boiler & storage. I can't believe there is really that much of a drop showing between the gauges at the boiler and those at the tank.
Still, I guess I should be pushing for that other 5Âº at a bare minimum.

I also better add, that it is taking me the better part of 8 or 9 hours to get from 172-174Âº to 180Âº & then hold it there with the boiler idling after the first 2-3 hours.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 20, 2012)

Are you talking about temp on top or bottom of tank. I rarely heat the bottom of my tank over 180 but often get the top 3 rd
to 190. Anymore I try not to heat all the way to 195 to help conserve wood.


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 20, 2012)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> Are you talking about temp on top or bottom of tank. I rarely heat the bottom of my tank over 180 but often get the top 3 rd
> to 190. Anymore I try not to heat all the way to 195 to help conserve wood.



I'm talking TOP of tank temp....the bottom starts off at a 10-12Âº lower difference and closes in to a 5-8Âº difference before I quite monitoring for the day..... I've been charting the top of tank temps to see how long each day it's taking me to get from start to 180+, along with some weather data. I've been burning all the same wood, but I've been trying to select for the driest stuff I have.


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## henfruit (Jan 21, 2012)

What size is the manifold? You need to move 20 gallons a minute for the eko 60.With that much head  the oo10 is not enough pump. a 0011 will work fine.


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

henfruit said:
			
		

> What size is the manifold? You need to move 20 gallons a minute for the eko 60.With that much head  the oo10 is not enough pump. a 0011 will work fine.



The manifold is an 8 branch, but I'm only using 6. However, I'm trying to charge storage before the radiant loops down the line.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 21, 2012)

HeatFarmer said:
			
		

> I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.



You have an unpressurized storage tank that is heated via a heat exchanger, right?  Im not sure how much more you can push into it above 180 realistically.  Tom Im sure knows better, but I had read here on the forums that its expected that there will always be some difference in temps between the boiler loop and the storage, or the heat wouldnt be able to transfer.

What is the delta T across the inlet and outlet of the heat bank?  If you can measure those temps, you can see if the BTUs are going in there, or if you are just at the limit of your storage.  If your temp drop isnt very high, you are moving plenty of water. If you have a big delta T, you need to move more water.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 21, 2012)

I didn't realize the storage isn't pressurized. 180 f is probably about as high as you will get it without a lot of idling.


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

Clarkbug said:
			
		

> HeatFarmer said:
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 Now that you mention it...I just remembered I cheaper out & only got a HX sized for 150,000 BTU..... but I would have thought, throwing everything the 60 has at it would at least cause the temp in storage to rise much faster than 10 degrees over 12 hours, whatever the maximum I am able to reach. Most of that time the boiler is idling and once I hit the highest point it seems the boiler has to be in idle to maintain it against DHW & the panel rads which draw off at 160Âº.  

Granted this is WAY better than the propane forced air furnace the new system replaced.....I grew to hate the cold air blowing out of it for 10 minutes and then 15 minutes of warm air, then 20 minutes of cool air and off.....just to maintain a house temp of 58. At least now there is no fossil fuel drain off & we have a much warmer, more evenly temperate house....but the length of burn & the lack of maxing out storage is a bit of a let down.......


Just checked the system. Here are some real time temps:

RK-2001U reading: 190Âº
Boiler Gauge reading 182Âº
HX In: 179Âº
Hx Out: 177Âº
Upper Tank Temp: 181Âº
Radiator Manifold In: 164Âº
Radiator Manifold Out: 142Âº
Outdoor temp: 9Âº
House: 64Âº
Boiler room 24Âº


I've just reloaded the boiler for the night. I would expect the HX In temp to raise a bit.
Perhaps I'm moving water too fast? Not giving it enough time in the tank? Although, if I were to switch the 010 to speed 2, I theoretically would only be moving 3gpm through the system. But then there is pressure behind that, so maybe it would work.......


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## huffdawg (Jan 21, 2012)

HeatFarmer said:
			
		

> Clarkbug said:
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I was talking to another member on this forum and he said he had to fool his controller somehow to be able to get the storage up to 190 or 195 .  He mentioned it was something to do with the old style controller .   is your controller a RK-2001UA 
He said the newer controller  allows you to get your storage to 195

Huff


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## huffdawg (Jan 21, 2012)

This is what the RK-2001UA  manual says.  Its funny cause you can turn the knob till the display says 195 f

How the Controller Works
Boiler's temperature setting from 140 up
to 176F
The desired boiler temperature is set with a
knob (6). Current temperature is displayed on
the screen (2).
Boiler overheat indicator The LED (4) indicates when the boiler
temperature exceeds 194F. This causes the
fan to switch on.

Also the manual says knob(6)  but its a push button    (4) is a knob. 

I wonder what the newer controller is worth

Huff


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## taxidermist (Jan 21, 2012)

the manual was written when they were using the old controller. I would you have the new control in yours.


Rob


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## mikefrommaine (Jan 21, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> HeatFarmer said:
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My rk2000 controller always reads 5 to 10 degrees higher than my other gauges. The controller is going into idle at a lower temp than the 195 it actually reads.  Which may be why you are seeing 180 storage temps.

The 24 degrees in the boiler room can't be helping though


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## woodsmaster (Jan 21, 2012)

Mikefrommain On my biomass I fooled the sensor to match the outlet temp of the boiler. I loosened the clamp that holds the probe, slid it most of the way threw, clamped it back down and put a small piece of insulation around the probe except the very
small part that is clamped. Works great heating up. It is slightly delayed cooling down but not very much. Havn't
heard of any one complain of this with the EKO.


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## in hot water (Jan 21, 2012)

HeatFarmer said:
			
		

> So I'm thinking my Taco 0010--IFC 3-speed just isn't cutting it as the circulation pump on my boiler loop. My head is running around 12-13 feet, which is over the 10ft head range for the pump. It came with the boiler, so I figured I'd give it a shot. However, even at speed 3 I just don't think it is moving enough flow to heat storage.
> 
> I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.
> 
> ...



How are you calculating the head?  Head in a closed loop is the resistence to flow that the pipe and fittings present, nothing to do with the height of the building.  If it is just circulating thru the boiler and coil in the storage tank, at 10- 15 gpm I doubt you have that much head?  Unless the piping is sized way too small.  The boiler itself is a wide open vessel, maybe a couple feet of head.  If multiple copper coils are headered together that should not be much head.  

The closer the A & B temperature in a HX the slower the heat trasnsfer.  If the HX is undersized you may never get the two temperatures to match.  Close approch heat exchangers can get within a few degrees on A & B side but they get much larger, more surface area, to accomplish that.  There will alway be some energy loss, or inefficiency in a heat exchange.

hr


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

> I was talking to another member on this forum and he said he had to fool his controller somehow to be able to get the storage up to 190 or 195 .  He mentioned it was something to do with the old style controller .   is your controller a RK-2001UA
> He said the newer controller  allows you to get your storage to 195
> 
> Huff



I believe I have the new controller....but...that is because the manual I received with the unit says it's for a RK-2001UA-d. My controller only says RK-2001


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## bigburner (Jan 21, 2012)

Post some Pic's of the 24 degree boiler room, Lets start there also storage.


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

mikefrommaine said:
			
		

> My rk2000 controller always reads 5 to 10 degrees higher than my other gauges. The controller is going into idle at a lower temp than the 195 it actually reads.  Which may be why you are seeing 180 storage temps.
> 
> The 24 degrees in the boiler room can't be helping though



I thought the controller might be reading vastly different than my other gauges, but I have checked. After a good solid burn and just as the boiler goes into idle and comes out again, it is reading pretty close to the big gauge I have on the front of my supply pipe. I have also seen the gauge read over a hair over 200 while the RK-2001 temp showed 205.

Edit: after checking multiple times today, like a new mother with a sleeping infant, I realized the two numbers are normally way off.....so I tweaked the probe under the hood to reflect actual boiler water temp. Results are that after 4 minutes I have risen the tank temp by 5Âº with the hotter water....


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

in hot water said:
			
		

> How are you calculating the head?  Head in a closed loop is the resistence to flow that the pipe and fittings present, nothing to do with the height of the building.  If it is just circulating thru the boiler and coil in the storage tank, at 10- 15 gpm I doubt you have that much head?  Unless the piping is sized way too small.  The boiler itself is a wide open vessel, maybe a couple feet of head.  If multiple copper coils are headered together that should not be much head.
> 
> The closer the A & B temperature in a HX the slower the heat trasnsfer.  If the HX is undersized you may never get the two temperatures to match.  Close approch heat exchangers can get within a few degrees on A & B side but they get much larger, more surface area, to accomplish that.  There will alway be some energy loss, or inefficiency in a heat exchange.
> 
> hr



I was going by height, like in a normal pumping situation....duh.... My pipes for boiler loop are all 1-1/4" and about 200ft in total there & back. My primary loop is 1-1/4" and about a 60ft loop.


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

Here are some photos of my system taken along the way. Everything is in pretty tight quarters, so no great panorama shots...but you'll get the gist. I may make a video of the thing soon too.
Most of the shots are from before things were insulated/ buttoned up.

1: storage tank & coils before I filled the thing up
2:Upstairs portion of primary loop in back hall where the boiler supply loop tees in.
3:Flat panel rad manifold loop
4:Storage & storage feed loop
5:Boiler room before I built a new door--that was the old door from outside, put inside.....
6:Boiler room new door & 1st layer of r-10, before r-21 batts
7:Boiler area & wood storage
8: Overhead boiler loop piping showing both layers of insulation


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## henfruit (Jan 21, 2012)

If you had gone 1.50 pipe you may be able to get by with the smaller pump? Also you should of had a larger heat exchanger in the tank.


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

henfruit said:
			
		

> If you had gone 1.50 pipe you may be able to get by with the smaller pump? Also you should of had a larger heat exchanger in the tank.



I hear ya....due to budget concerns I didn't spring for the 200,000btu HX. Probably a huge mistake to go with the 50,000btu/hr less one......


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## Clarkbug (Jan 21, 2012)

So your temps say that the inlet to the Hx is only 179, so you cant expect that your storage will go much higher than that.  Plus you are only dropping two degrees, so you arent even dropping much heat in there.  I dont think its a pumping issue at this point.  If you can figure out how to get the inlet temp into the Hx up, thats the first step I would think.

EDIT: Or am I reading this all wrong and you are trying to bump the temp of the outlet to your radiator loop?


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

Clarkbug said:
			
		

> So your temps say that the inlet to the Hx is only 179, so you cant expect that your storage will go much higher than that.  Plus you are only dropping two degrees, so you arent even dropping much heat in there.  I dont think its a pumping issue at this point.  If you can figure out how to get the inlet temp into the Hx up, thats the first step I would think.
> 
> EDIT: Or am I reading this all wrong and you are trying to bump the temp of the outlet to your radiator loop?



Your 1st thought was right. As far as the radiator loop is going, it's working fine. I'm trying to get as much heat as possible into storage. That 179Âº reading wasn't with boiler at maximum.  Right now I'm reading 181Âº HX inlet, 174Âº HX outlet & 176Âº top of storage temp. It has come up from 172Âº in a 3hr burn time. I just check the boiler....it is reading 192Âº on the controller, in full gasification. It's got to be in the low 20Âº in the boiler room and 11Âº outside. I think I may start logging the two temps at the HX to see how they go......


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## Clarkbug (Jan 21, 2012)

A 5 degree difference between your top of tank temp and Hx inlet temp isnt too shabby at all for an unpressurized system.  I dont know anything about the EKO as far as getting your supply water temps up, but it seems like others here in this thread had some good ideas.  

You are like me in that we are both trying to tweak brand new systems before we really have them done   I need to insulate my piping and storage, and it sounds like you may need to get your boiler room sealed up some before tweaking things too much more.  We have the rest of the winter to try and tweak. Speaking of which, Im off to go get some insulation.


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

woodsmaster said:
			
		

> Mikefrommain On my biomass I fooled the sensor to match the outlet temp of the boiler. I loosened the clamp that holds the probe, slid it most of the way threw, clamped it back down and put a small piece of insulation around the probe except the very
> small part that is clamped. Works great heating up. It is slightly delayed cooling down but not very much. Havn't
> heard of any one complain of this with the EKO.



I just read the thread here: https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/72555/P15/ and have just come in from performing this same trick....RESULT! My boiler water gauge was showing 183Âº while the EKO controller was LYING to me and saying things were 194Âº......SO....I opened up the hood & lifted the clamp. Boiler temp dropped to 182 & started firing. By the time it kicked off at 195Âº the temp gauge was reading just under 200Âº

The temp in storage shot up almost 5Âº just in the time I left to perform this operation. Time will tell if I can break the 185Âº mark and head on up to 190Âº.....
Such a simple tweak to a problem which shouldn't really be.....


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## willworkforwood (Jan 21, 2012)

Of all the numbers that you've mentioned, the most important one is House=64.  Assuming that's not what you have the T-stat set at, how far away is it from what you want it to be?  Have you tried to see how the boiler does just heating the house? (i.e. bypassing storage completely). I'm not knocking the value of storage in any way, just asking this question because it isn't making much sense to me that you boiler is idling, the FHA HX delta T is only 7*, and the house is 64, unless that's what you want it to be  :bug:.  Maybe if you took storage out of the mix temporarily (if you haven't already tried that), you could find out how the pumps work with just the loads.  Then if that works, you could run without storage until you get a better (warmer) time to be able to make changes.


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## Clarkbug (Jan 21, 2012)

Glad to hear you got it tweaked HeatFarmer!  Always nice to feel like something good is happening.

One question for you....  What is the continuous heat rating on the liner that you have in your heat bank?  I know that they sell a couple of different types, and Im not sure where they top out.  Would hate to see bad things happen if that got too warm on you...


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 21, 2012)

willworkforwood said:
			
		

> Of all the numbers that you've mentioned, the most important one is House=64.  Assuming that's not what you have the T-stat set at, how far away is it from what you want it to be?  Have you tried to see how the boiler does just heating the house? (i.e. bypassing storage completely). I'm not knocking the value of storage in any way, just asking this question because it isn't making much sense to me that you boiler is idling, the FHA HX delta T is only 7*, and the house is 64, unless that's what you want it to be  :bug:.  Maybe if you took storage out of the mix temporarily (if you haven't already tried that), you could find out how the pumps work with just the loads.  Then if that works, you could run without storage until you get a better (warmer) time to be able to make changes.



I have low temp rad panels in the house...they start heating at 160Âº. I can get all the heat for them even after I begin charging storage. Given the area the radiators are trying to heat and the fact that every window in this place leaks air and there is little insulation in some walls I am very pleased with 64Âº just from the boiler system. It is a VAST improvement over keeping it at 58Âº with the propane furnace running constantly! Now that I don't have to worry about the propane furnace giving out any more....it was old, inefficient and constantly breaking down--I can begin to tighten up the house as funds are available.

Now that I have tweaked the probe on the boiler to reflect reality in the water temperature, I am sure I can get storage up without idling so much. That will also improve with drier wood & improved insulation in the boiler room so it is not fighting such cold temps there. The original idea was to have the slabs heating the boiler room from the return-to-boiler water, but launching the system on the coldest day of the year so far put the kibosh on that...... So that part of the equation--warmer boiler room, preheated wood drying out quicker--will have to wait until I can get it online in the spring & ready for next year!


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## willworkforwood (Jan 21, 2012)

Tightening up your house will definitely produce the results you're looking for.  And I tip my hat to you - If my house was 64* (not even to speak of 58), I would be the only one living in it  %-P


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 22, 2012)

willworkforwood said:
			
		

> Tightening up your house will definitely produce the results you're looking for.  And I tip my hat to you - If my house was 64* (not even to speak of 58), I would be the only one living in it  %-P



LOL...my wife is a bit of a hot-house flower....but God bless her, she's a practical woman...during the propane regime she was the one who insisted the furnace be kept down so we wouldn't shoot through cash heating this airy hovel...we just kept the wood stoves chock full & going like a steam locomotive..... Now that it is *much* warmer with no constant need to feed fires & she can cozy up in a chair by a radiator, she is mildly more content......


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 22, 2012)

Clarkbug said:
			
		

> Glad to hear you got it tweaked HeatFarmer!  Always nice to feel like something good is happening.
> 
> One question for you....  What is the continuous heat rating on the liner that you have in your heat bank?  I know that they sell a couple of different types, and Im not sure where they top out.  Would hate to see bad things happen if that got too warm on you...



Tom's liners are rated for 195Âº They can go higher, but it's not preferred....as if I could get it there! They are made of a modified PVC I think....It is flexible and resists getting brittle over time. I specifically went this way once I found out the liner could withstand the heat...I did not want to go with EPDM as it breaks down way to fast and does bad things to HX-ers.


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## leaddog (Jan 22, 2012)

Just my thoughts on the probe for the controller on the eko. I have found the probe tells the temp of the top of the primary water and NOT the temp of the water leaving the boiler. I have a pid controller with the probe just before the 3way valve. That reading IS the temp of the water leaving the boiler. It can vary as much as 15* either way depending on just loading cold wood, idle, hot burn etc. I have since moved the controller probe to the outlet pipe and even there it will vary 10*. The big problem I can see is if you move the controller probe to get the actual water temp leaving the boiler and try and get the temp up to 195* you run the very real chance that at times the temp on the top of the primary chamber will be over boiling. This is because there isn't good mixing of the water in the boiler. If the primary chamber is HOT and if you are injecting cool water into the return then the water leaving the boiler could be colder as that cooler water is just passing thru the hx and not past the top. The top water is slowly feeding into the exit water. Because there is alot of transfer from the sides and top to small amount of water will rise fast to the top and the top will get hot faster. I know I'm rambling here but what I'm trying to say is it might not be the best idea to try and get those last 5* and take the chance on over heating. I've heard some kettling in mine and haven't had any problem but try and keep the storage temp down to less than 185 and no problem. I like a large safty margin. 
I do think it would have been better if the inlet had been placed in the front that it would have made a better flow thru the boiler but then maybe it would have tended to by pass the exchanger. Its working ok the way it is so I guess it's best to leave sleeping dogs lay.
leaddog


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## HeatFarmer (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks for the input lead dog.....I had thought about moving the probe to the outlet, but like you say, this could allow for a huge problem if the boiler is pushed. Instead I raised the probe about 1/16th inch above the top of the boiler. This allows the boiler control to reflect a bit more closely what is going on with the water temp leaving the system as displayed by a gauge on the supply outlet right by the boiler control. It is still set so that it shuts down the boiler fan as it approaches 195Âº and the water temp is reading between 195-199Âº depending. I'm going to watch it closely to see what happens but it seems to be working for now. My storage is *still* only getting to 184-5Âº.....


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