# CFM Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Non-Cat Owners Discussion and Review Thread!



## tradergordo

Hopefully I'm not the only Dutchwest Everburner here. Maybe future users will find this thread using the forum's advanced search. If you own this stove, please post your own experiences, wisdom, and reviews!

A quick background on me - this is my first year as a wood burner, and this is my first stove - so I really don't have a whole lot to compare it with other than a few friends with different stoves.  To get the complete low down on my woodstove journey just follow the link in my signature to my woodstove web page.  Also just for clarification, CFM bought Vermont Castings but they are keeping the Vermont Castings name (and manufacturing facilities in Vermont) so I use the names interchangeably.  Update: CFM went bankrupt in 2008, the Vermont Castings name and product lines were bought by Monessen Hearth Systems Co. (MHSC), warranties on stoves bought before 2009 are not being honored (thanks MHSC!).

*How does Everburn work?*
I wish every owner's manual would explain how the stove really works.  They may assume the average person doesn't care or it's not important for operation (I disagree).  Some of the old Vermont castings manuals clearly explained how the stoves worked! Note that the description there for "horizontal combustion" applies to everburn stoves and this is one key design element that gives the Dutchwest long burn times and good secondary combustion (when it's working).

"Everburn" is not described in any detail in my manual, on CFM or VC's websites, or anywhere else on the web that I can find.  I even did patent searches.  I found lots of CFM and VC patents with lots of details and diagrams of various stoves, but none of the entries seem to describe everburn.  The term "everburn" does not exist in any US or Canadian patent.  

Anyway, the everburn system uses secondary burn chambers engineered for better secondary combustion and longer burns.  The design makes a lot of sense, basically instead of focusing secondary burn toward the top of the stove (which most models do with burn tubes or baffles at the top) the everburn design forces the combustion gasses back down to the bottom of the firebox and though the hot coals, superheating the gasses before secondary burn occurs (some people call this a "down drafting design").  This means it actually exhausts out the bottom of the firebox and the flames generally go horizontal. This prevents the wood on top from burning prematurely.   The other component of the everburn system are the secondary burn chambers which are lined with a "fibrous ceramic filament" which supposedly allows combustion to occur at lower temps than would otherwise be required without a catalyst.  According to CFM this ceramic fiber material never degrades, never has to be replaced, and is covered by the lifetime warranty.  That's pretty much all I know.  The CMF technicians (whom I cannot extract any more info from) tell me I know more about the stove than most of their dealers 

*Where can I download the owner's manual, brochure, or warranty?*
http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productdetails.cfm?id=314

*Where can I download the service manual?*
I was able to obtain a copy of the service manual in PDF form from the techs at CFM.  Hopefully they have no objections to me sharing it:
http://www.gordosoft.com/woodstove/VermontCastingsDutchwestEverburn_SERVICE_Manual.pdf
You will find detailed instructions for taking the stove completely apart along with photos of every step.

*Personal user experiences so far:*
[UPDATED after a full year of use] I heated my ENTIRE house with the stove all winter long without having to use my backup furnace. The heat distribution has been excellent without a blower attached to the stove (more on my house layout below). But secondary burn has been inconsistent, the stove can be finicky, especially in 35+F degree temps and/or low atmospheric pressure situations. Other stoves are more user friendly but the Dutchwest works great in very cold temps. Read the full thread for more info.  Very dry wood is essential.

*Operational Videos:*
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14536/
[END UPDATE]

Anyway, just when I thought I had this stove figured out, last night it burned like I’ve never seen it burn before.  I jokingly say “it went thermo-nuclear”.  I guess what I did differently (accidentally?) was get a really huge brick of red hot coals immediately in front of the throat opening at the back.  I loaded it with fresh splits, and closed the bypass – it did its normal “everburn rumble” (sounds like a natural gas furnace firing only quieter).  The thing is that the rumble just kept going and going, and the flue temps were around 650.  I cut the primary air completely off (secondary combustion air is not user controlled and cannot be shut off), and the flue temps stayed above 600 for over an hour anyway. I went outside with a very bright light and was amazed that I could see NOTHING coming out of the chimney (normally there is at least _some _white vaporous exhaust). You couldn't tell there was a raging fire (or any fire) going on at the time.   

The house got up to 75, my bedroom upstairs was still 75 at 4 o clock in the morning, it was 73 at 7AM (28 outside).  This morning, 9 hours after I put the last split in, the stove top was hot, lots of glowing red coals still inside without even having to stir things up.  I was able to just toss a new log on and it lit right up. 

Also so far I've been able to get good 8-10 hour burns on a single load with easy restarts.  I believe I could get the stated max 14 hour burntime by using the highest BTU wood and packing it as tight as I can although I'm happy just being able to get heat all night and an easy fast reload in the morning which is what I've been seeing.


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## tradergordo

*About the space I am heating:*
I live in a well insulated (but not tyvek wrapped) modern house with a very open floor plan.  I still don't know exactly how many square feet my house is, you would think that is something I should know  and one day I need to measure it myself.  Zillow.com says 2800 sq. ft. but I have no idea where they got this from, my insurance estimate was 2500, but I think it could be less due to open vaulted ceiling family room (then again I think some count the open space as square footage which also makes sense when you are talking about heating area).  It has 4 bedrooms upstairs.  A ceiling fan at the top of the family room, where the stove is located - and partly inclined ceiling above the stove helps move the heated air very effectively to the bedrooms upstairs (which are typically 2 degrees warmer than the temps downstairs in the same room as the stove).  Also note that in order to prevent excessive heat loss out the chimney, I installed a nice long run of single wall flue pipe (about 9 feet) which runs straight up from the stove inside the room to meet the chimney near the ceiling.  There are no bends in the flue or chimney.  

*Problems:* 
So far I've really only had one big problem.  When I first got the stove, I followed the standard break in fire procedures.  It created the typical curing paint fumes as expected.  But with each subsequent fire I noticed that the fiberglass gasket ropes on the doors were sticking to the cast iron.  On about the 4th fire, after really getting it hot and running longer, the front door gasket rope was firmly stuck to the stove, and when I opened it the gasket pulled right off.  I asked the dealer & CMF about this, both said it was atypical. They gave me a tube of gasket cement to reattach it.  I have not had any problems like this since - I believe the curing paint created a sticky bond with the gasket. 

The only other problem I've seen is the glass getting dirty, but this will happen to any stove when you burn moist wood (cooler fires), allow smoldering, or let the wood get too close to the glass.  The glass is easy to clean either way but stays clear when I burn as recommended ( properly seasoned hardwood, wait for a bed of coals before closing bypass).

A minor thing that other reviewers have mentioned is the somewhat fragile removable door handles.  They are made from ceramic, and just dropping it once on your hard tiled hearth pad is enough to chip it.  They use removable handles so you can't burn yourself while opening the doors but fumbling around with delicate removable handles is no fun.  That said, you can permanently attach your own handles using anything with a 1/4" thread screw at the end (see discussion for pics).

*How does it compare to other stoves?* 
As I've already stated, I don't have much experience with other stoves, but here are my thoughts.  The Everburn design has its benefits and drawbacks.  The thing I like about the typical non-cat stove (burn tubes or baffles at top) is that you don’t have to do anything special to get to secondary burn mode, just load it up and go away.  With my Dutchwest you pretty much have to do exactly what the instruction manual tells you to do.  You start the fire with the bypass open (this is similar to how you use a catalytic stove).  Once you have a nice 2” thick bed of coals toward the back (the throat opening in the lower, center, back to be specific) then you load up with fresh splits, wait a few minutes for the new wood to light, then close the bypass to activate the efficient secondary burn.

So there is a lot more futzing around compared to other non-cat stoves but I believe it burns more efficiently than most other stoves (the EPA rating on this stove is 1.3 gm/hr by the way, which is one of the best ratings in the industry).  It also starts and reloads better (quick easy starts and less potential for smoke to enter your room on reloads) than other stoves due to the bypass feature.  One drawback is that its hard to know for sure that the secondary burn is working all the time, I know for certain when I hear that faint low rumble, or see the tell-tale phantom flames (some secondary burn still happens in the main firebox depending on the stage of your burn). But I'm not sure about the rest of the time and I don't know if flue temps are a reliable indicator. With a catalytic stove that has a cat thermometer, you pretty much always know if it is functioning optimally.  Another way you are supposed to be able to tell if the stove is burning optimally is by looking at the exhaust coming out the chimney - but I've seen a pretty wide range, anything from absolutely no visible exhaust, to the more typical "white stuff" which is probably mostly water vapor, to the "gray smoke" during start ups.

Ash removal is very easy on the Dutchwest, and this is another one of the features I like about the stove compared to others.  There is a grate at the bottom of the firebox that seems to be sized just right - the ash falls down to the very large ash pan below, which is in its own compartment with an airtight, gasket sealed door.  Oh, and ALL off the doors on the Dutchwest have the same 3/8" gaskets and adjustable door latches which can be tightened up as required to keep the stove sealed.  You can go for days without removing the ashes, and you can remove the ashes even while a fire is burning.

Perhaps the most favorable comparison this stove makes to others is its price.  I have seen a brand new Dutchwest large (model 2479) sell on eBay for as low as $999 shipped. I found it in the low $11XX range (and many local stove shops will price match).  This makes this particular stove a decent value compared to others.  But the high number of frusterated owners getting poor secondary combustion should give you pause to consider other models with more favorable reviews.


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## Corie

Wow, that's some review man.  Awesome, I'm really glad you're so happy with it.  If i come with a 12pack can I see it in action? haha


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## tradergordo

Corie said:
			
		

> Wow, that's some review man.  Awesome, I'm really glad you're so happy with it.  If i come with a 12pack can I see it in action? haha



Grab the yuengling and come on down!    


*UPDATE ON MY STOVE CONFIGURATION *(I would update one of the original two posts, but they have both reached the system size limit so I can't add much to them):

I had nine feet of single wall flue inside my room.  I thought the extra long single wall flue would be a good way to capture extra heat.  But I was warned me this could cause the flue gasses to lose too much heat even if it appeared to be working OK.  Also the manual doesn't recommend having more than 8 feet of single wall flue.  My chimney cap (which is not a very good design, too small and tight) got plugged twice (spark arrestor is way too tight and small, so I removed it after the second cleaning).  

Anyway, long story short - I thought it would be a good idea to change the flue, so I bought another length (2 foot) of double wall pipe, and since I used a long adjustable (slide inside) flue piece, I didn't have to remove any of the single wall pipe, I was able to just slide it down - but this had the effect of adding another 2 feet of double wall (something I didn't really think about before I bought the 2 foot length).  So now I have only 5 feet of single wall flue.

Under the new configuration once again the stove surprised me.  With the primary air turned all the way off, I could not get the flue temp to go below 800.  I tried adding what I thought was moist wood to the top of the fire - these were some unsplit logs, bark still firmly attached (but had been drying for a few months).  I didn't give them any time to light, just tossed them in, closed the door and immediately engaged the bypass.  Even after that the flue temps did not go below 800.  It stayed above 800 for hours, everburn rumble going the entire time.  House temps went up to 82 degrees.  It was still 76 when I got up for work this morning.  Not sure the changes I made to the flue had anything to do with this though.


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## elkimmeg

"Like all non-catalytic EPA approved stoves, rely on a secondary burn chamber to reburn the exhaust gases from the primary fire. In order for the fire in the secondary burn chamber to ignite and stay lit, a minimum firebox temperature must be maintained, which requires that an adequate quantity of combustion air be supplied at all times. To address this need, manufacturers of non-catalytic woodstoves typically incorporate a "stop" in the design of the intake draft control, so some air enters both the primary and secondary fire chambers even when the draft control is turned down as far as it will go. This air is delivered to the fire even when it might not be needed, and thus can cause faster than necessary fuel consumption during certain stages of the fire. The upshot of this situation can be shorter-than-optimum burn times, and frustrated stove owners who find that they often can't "hold" the fire as long as they might want.

The everbun technology was designed to maximize burn times for each load of fuel by delivering a burst of combustion air to the main and secondary fires when needed, even when the draft control is turned down far enough to create the longest possible burn.

Basically, the everburn device is a pivot plate, which is mounted in the special fibrous secondary combustion chamber stove's air intake plenum so that it covers and uncovers the hole when it pivots. A  thermatic coil is attached to an actuator arm that pivots the plate so that when the firebox begins to cool below a certain point, the coil contracts, and the entire assembly hinges open to uncover the intake hole and provide extra air to the fire. As the burn rate increases from the inflow of oxygen, the firebox heats back up and the coil expands, lowering the base plate back down to seal the hole in the air intake plenum, without changing the original slide draft setting.

When everburn technology is applied to a woodstove, the operator no longer has to worry about whether or not the manual draft control is turned down too low. If the fire should start to smolder from lack of oxygen, the coil senses the resulting temperature drop and automatically hinges the pivot plate open to supply extra oxygen for as long as it takes to re-establish secondary burn temperature. This enables the stove to be operated at lower manual draft control settings without fear of lost heat, excessive creosote formation or smoke pollution.

Another benefit of the everburn mechanism comes into play at refueling time. When I've got the draft control set JUST where I like it, I don't want to have to find that setting again after I've opened the draft control to kindle a fresh load and stood there for the 20-30 minutes it takes to get the new load up to temperature. The thermatic mechanism automatically senses the temperature drop in the firebox caused by the load of room-temperature wood, opens the pivot plate to supply extra oxygen to the fire until kindling occurs and secondary lightoff temperature is achieved, then lowers the plate to re-establish my draft"


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## elkimmeg

l





> ast night it burned like I’ve never seen it burn before.  I jokingly say “it went thermo-nuclear”.  I guess what I did differently (accidentally?) was get a really huge brick of red hot coals immediately in front of the throat opening at the back.  I loaded it with fresh splits, and closed the bypass – it did its normal “everburn rumble” (sounds like a natural gas furnace firing only quieter).  The thing is that the rumble just kept going and going, and the flue temps were around 650.  I cut the primary air completely off, but the flue temps stayed above 600 for over an hour anyway. I went outside with my million candle power light and was pretty amazed that I could see NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING coming out of the chimney (normally there is at least some white vaporous exhaust). You could never have known there was a raging fire (or any fire) going on at the time.



Congratulations you found the sweet spot.. Too many posters post complaining about poor  stove preformance.  yeah they dampered down and the fire just smoldered or died down.
 There is a bit more involved before dampering down, dry wood , establishing a full bed of red hot coals,  and being sure your wood is past its inital burning stage.  just getting to 500 degrees and dampering down may no be enough. I find 600 to 650 drgrees  I get better results after I damper it down. Again dry wood  good bed of coals and  waiting for the initial burning stages to end.  Enother way is  loading the fire box Instead of filling it to the brim I add a few splits at a time get them involved add a few more to fill it  watch the thermo rise to 600+ then damper it down I have enjoyed 8 plus hours of 500 plus degrees of heat./  this theory seems to explain, it things in motion tend to stay in motion You get a good secvondary burn it tends to continue.

 A few weeks back we had the cat VS non cat debate. All the benifits in your Everburn technology came fron VC experiences in Cat stove technology. The combustion chamber design adding thermatically controled secondary air down draft the bi pass damper to port super hot exhaust gasses over the coals all part of the past  cat technology

 Now supose all the design enhancements to the secondary chamber, the called everburn technology, and augmented by the most effecient cat combustor of its kind.
 A cat combustor that extends that secondary burn 40% longer and burns more particulates, than the common OEM ones of today. Right now 380 is the lowest cat combustor light off that I know of.  What we are talking about, is light off  under 300 degrees


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## BrotherBart

I don't want to be in the neighborhood when that thing sticks in the open position. Whoa Nellie!

Hmmm... Let me see here. That would be when a nice bed of coals was ready for you to throw a big load of splits on top of them.

I hope the manual shows a way to shut that sucker off.


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## elkimmeg

easiest way to carm that beast down is to add one seasoned split from Mo's wood man


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## seaken

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> "Like all non-catalytic EPA approved stoves, rely on a secondary burn chamber to reburn the exhaust gases from the primary fire. In order for the fire in the secondary burn chamber to ignite and stay lit, a minimum firebox temperature must be maintained, which requires that an adequate quantity of combustion air be supplied at all times. To address this need, manufacturers of non-catalytic woodstoves typically incorporate a "stop" in the design of the intake draft control, so some air enters both the primary and secondary fire chambers even when the draft control is turned down as far as it will go. This air is delivered to the fire even when it might not be needed, and thus can cause faster than necessary fuel consumption during certain stages of the fire. The upshot of this situation can be shorter-than-optimum burn times, and frustrated stove owners who find that they often can't "hold" the fire as long as they might want.
> 
> The everbun technology was designed to maximize burn times for each load of fuel by delivering a burst of combustion air to the main and secondary fires when needed, even when the draft control is turned down far enough to create the longest possible burn.
> 
> Basically, the everburn device is a pivot plate, which is mounted in the special fibrous secondary combustion chamber stove's air intake plenum so that it covers and uncovers the hole when it pivots. A  thermatic coil is attached to an actuator arm that pivots the plate so that when the firebox begins to cool below a certain point, the coil contracts, and the entire assembly hinges open to uncover the intake hole and provide extra air to the fire. As the burn rate increases from the inflow of oxygen, the firebox heats back up and the coil expands, lowering the base plate back down to seal the hole in the air intake plenum, without changing the original slide draft setting.
> 
> When everburn technology is applied to a woodstove, the operator no longer has to worry about whether or not the manual draft control is turned down too low. If the fire should start to smolder from lack of oxygen, the coil senses the resulting temperature drop and automatically hinges the pivot plate open to supply extra oxygen for as long as it takes to re-establish secondary burn temperature. This enables the stove to be operated at lower manual draft control settings without fear of lost heat, excessive creosote formation or smoke pollution.
> 
> Another benefit of the everburn mechanism comes into play at refueling time. When I've got the draft control set JUST where I like it, I don't want to have to find that setting again after I've opened the draft control to kindle a fresh load and stood there for the 20-30 minutes it takes to get the new load up to temperature. The thermatic mechanism automatically senses the temperature drop in the firebox caused by the load of room-temperature wood, opens the pivot plate to supply extra oxygen to the fire until kindling occurs and secondary lightoff temperature is achieved, then lowers the plate to re-establish my draft"



Elk, where did you get this quote from?


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## seaken

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> l
> Congratulations you found the sweet spot.. Too many posters post complaining about poor  stove preformance.  yeah they dampered down and the fire just smoldered or died down.
> There is a bit more involved before dampering down, dry wood , establishing a full bed of red hot coals,  and being sure your wood is past its inital burning stage.  just getting to 500 degrees and dampering down may no be enough. I find 600 to 650 drgrees  I get better results after I damper it down. Again dry wood  good bed of coals and  waiting for the initial burning stages to end.  Enother way is  loading the fire box Instead of filling it to the brim I add a few splits at a time get them involved add a few more to fill it  watch the thermo rise to 600+ then damper it down I have enjoyed 8 plus hours of 500 plus degrees of heat./  this theory seems to explain, it things in motion tend to stay in motion You get a good secvondary burn it tends to continue.
> 
> A few weeks back we had the cat VS non cat debate. All the benifits in your Everburn technology came fron VC experiences in Cat stove technology. The combustion chamber design adding thermatically controled secondary air down draft the bi pass damper to port super hot exhaust gasses over the coals all part of the past  cat technology
> 
> Now supose all the design enhancements to the secondary chamber, the called everburn technology, and augmented by the most effecient cat combustor of its kind.
> A cat combustor that extends that secondary burn 40% longer and burns more particulates, than the common OEM ones of today. Right now 380 is the lowest cat combustor light off that I know of.  What we are talking about, is light off  under 300 degrees



Elk, it is my understanding that only catalytics can achieve combustion of gases below 1100 degrees F. The Everburn allows the 1100 degree temperatures and does not need a catalyst. It is the drawing of the exhaust down through the coal bed that encourages the combustion of the gases at the higher temperature, above 1100. This is different from a Catalytic where the smoke is hitting the catalyst at about 600 degrees F.  I can't tell if you are talking about Catalytic or non-Catalytic burn here. Can non-Cat burn happen below 1100 degrees F? Please explain.


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## Todd

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Anyway, just when I thought I had this stove figured out, last night it burned like I’ve never seen it burn before.  I jokingly say “it went thermo-nuclear”.  I guess what I did differently (accidentally?) was get a really huge brick of red hot coals immediately in front of the throat opening at the back.  I loaded it with fresh splits, and closed the bypass – it did its normal “everburn rumble” (sounds like a natural gas furnace firing only quieter).  The thing is that the rumble just kept going and going, and the flue temps were around 650.  I cut the primary air completely off (secondary combustion air is not user controlled and cannot be shut off), and the flue temps stayed above 600 for over an hour anyway. I went outside with my million candle power light and was pretty amazed that I could see NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING coming out of the chimney (normally there is at least _some _white vaporous exhaust). You could never have known there was a raging fire (or any fire) going on at the time.



Great post! One question for ya. Are you talking flue temps or stove top temps? Do you have a magnetic thermometer on your stove pipe? If so, and it's reading 600, that's alot of heat going up the chimney? When my stove is chuggin along at a 600 stove top temp, my stove pipe reads roughly half that.


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## tradergordo

seaken said:
			
		

> Elk, it is my understanding that only catalytics can achieve combustion of gases below 1100 degrees F. The Everburn allows the 1100 degree temperatures and does not need a catalyst. It is the drawing of the exhaust down through the coal bed that encourages the combustion of the gases at the higher temperature, above 1100. This is different from a Catalytic where the smoke is hitting the catalyst at about 600 degrees F.  I can't tell if you are talking about Catalytic or non-Catalytic burn here. Can non-Cat burn happen below 1100 degrees F? Please explain.



The bottom exhausting / down drafting design is great, but that is not what makes it the "everburn" system.  The new twist VC has added is this so called "state-of-the-art ceramic fiber material" which lines the secondary combustion chambers. Supposedly this allows for combustion to take place at lower temperatures.  

Exactly what temp can combustion occur?  How exactly does this space age material work?  Is it all just marketng hype?    No idea...


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## tradergordo

Todd said:
			
		

> Great post! One question for ya. Are you talking flue temps or stove top temps? Do you have a magnetic thermometer on your stove pipe? If so, and it's reading 600, that's alot of heat going up the chimney? When my stove is chuggin along at a 600 stove top temp, my stove pipe reads roughly half that.



I'm using a condar probe thermometer in the flue.  Are you sure you didn't reverse stove top and stove pipe in your question (does soapstone even get above 500)?  Well its probably totally different with an external pipe temp, but the flue gasses should always be hotter than the stove top temperature except for when the fire is dying down.  I capture a lot of the heat of that exhaust via 9 feet of single wall flue pipe inside the room (probe is near the bottom).


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## BurningIsLove

Tradergordo, that was one of the best posts on the DW I've seen so far, thx!  I installed mine (DW 2479 large) at the tail end of last year's burning season (late Feb), and have only had a 1/2 dozen nites this season that warranted a good fire, as my house is well insulated and gets a lot of passive solar heat which is a rapidly diminishing heat source this far north.  I can also heat my entire house w/ ease, including my recently attached two-story garage/woodworking shop which has an interior masonry chimney running up along the common wall through both the garage/shop.

My biggest difficulty has been getting the reburner to work consistently.  As you stated, it's really obvious when it is operating properly as the 'everburn rumble' is impossible to mistake, not to mention that there isnt even the smallest trace of particulate or smoke coming out the top of the stack.  Many times I reload the box, get everything burning well, temp around 550-600, close the bypass, and hear the rumble.  However after about 30 seconds the rumble fades and the temp drops like a stone to about 350.   Other times, the rumble continues, and like you said, the stove goes nuclear and there is no way to get it below 500 even w/ the air valve completely closed.  But from your post, it looks like the stove still lets in air to the reburn chamber despite the air setting.

Here are the ways I've found to get a successful reburn (besides the obvious use of dry, seasoned hardwood):

1) ensure the stack is warm to the touch.  Mine is clay liner w/ concrete block exterior.  Takes about an hour of a hot fire before it's above room temp.  If its too cold, my draft is decreased noticably.  Even when slightly warm, the decreased draft can stall the reburner.

2) when you reload w/ fresh splits, push some of the existing hot coal bed to the back so the air has to flow thru the hot coals

3) After loading fresh splits, wait longer than you're used to before closing the bypass.  If the splits arent going dropping coals around the edges, it's usually going to stall since the air entering the reburner is cooled by the splits.  you can choke down the air while everything catches & is burning to increase burn time.  Even then, there will be very little smoke coming out the top of the stack, and it serves to heat the stack even more to increase draft which is essential.

4) Safety purists avert your eyes  This technique is probably not the smartest, but done with care & a watchful eye, I dont think its that dangerous.  When the splits are burning and the stove is approaching temp (500+), open the ash pan door a crack.  This not only lets you make sure all the splits are burning via the extra light, it drastically increases the draft temporarily.  When temp is about 600, close the pan door, wait about 3 seconds, then close the bypass.  This is usually enuf to jumpstart the reburner if it's being stubborn.   DO NOT leave the stove unattended whatsoever during this time, it only takes a few seconds anyhow.


I also can't stand the detachable handles.  Mine shattered after the very first drop, then twice more since.  Terrible design.  You are correct that they take a standard thread.  You can actually unscrew the blunt insert and screw it directly onto any of the handles.  This of course heats up the handles frighteningly fast.  Im experimenting w/ buying some coils to wrap around a longer handle.  I grew up w/ a Russo stove that had those, and gloves were never needed to operate the handles.  Here is a thread that discusses this more:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/837/

Any other tips on dealing w/ a stubborn everburn DW are much appreciated, this is my first non-cat stove and Im still fumbling w/ that aspect.


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## Todd

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great post! One question for ya. Are you talking flue temps or stove top temps? Do you have a magnetic thermometer on your stove pipe? If so, and it's reading 600, that's alot of heat going up the chimney? When my stove is chuggin along at a 600 stove top temp, my stove pipe reads roughly half that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm using a condar probe thermometer in the flue.  Are you sure you didn't reverse stove top and stove pipe in your question (does soapstone even get above 500)?  Well its probably totally different with an external pipe temp, but the flue gasses should always be hotter than the stove top temperature except for when the fire is dying down.  I capture a lot of the heat of that exhaust via 9 feet of single wall flue pipe inside the room (probe is near the bottom).
Click to expand...


Ok, I get it now. A probe thermometer will read higher than magnetic type I have.

And yes my stove top has gotten as high as 725 and normaly run it between 450-600.


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## tradergordo

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Here are the ways I've found to get a successful reburn



Burning - thanks - that is the kind of info I was hoping to see.  I also read some other user reviews of our stove, one person mentioned  cracking the ash door to get up to temp (I think this superheats the secondary burn chamber), another person mentioned starting the fire basically with a pile of wood completely against the back of the firebox to warm the secondary burn chambers which sounds like a good idea.  Like you, I push the hot coals towards the back before reloading.  I'll definitely post if and when I find any other tricks that help.

So do you think that the secondary burn is only working when you hear the everburn rumble?  I wasn't really sure - was thinking possibly you only get that sound when there is extra strong draft or very high levels of combustion gas to burn.  That doesn't neccesarily mean it isn't burning efficiently when its not rumbling away but I don't really know?  

I know what you mean about closing the bypass and seeing the temps drop - this usually happens when I don't have a big enough coal bed.  I assume once it gets seriously cold out its going to be easier to get those big coal beds and high efficiency burns (less of the stop and start stuff).

I have an idea for making handles - create a mold using the existing handle, fill mold with high temp silicone sealant, drop appropriately sized screw into mold, when it dries, flip over and do the other half.  I've done something similar before.  I'll let you know if I try this, I'll take pictures of the whole process.  Of course it'd be a lot easier to just pay the $20 for 3 new retail handles, but from what I understand they get really hot when screwed in.  No idea what a silicone handle would be like...


----------



## greenergrass

I usually start out with 2 small splits.(2"x20"). I place them side by side running Parralel to front door. I fill the area between with 3 or 4 sheets of newspaper. I then place a good amout of kindling on top of everthing (usually pine). I light the newspaper and within 5 minutes the fire is going good. I continue adding small splits (finger size) to the fire until I get a really good bed of coals. I am now ready for loading up (45 minuteu to 1 hour). I push the coals towards the back and load up with 4 big splits(3" to 4 ") and whatever else I can fit with little splits. The surface temp, wich is read from the side opposite the loading door, reads around 600. I wait for about 10 to 15 minutes for new load to catch and close the damper. With that size load I am usually good for 6 hrs with cherry and maple.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Gordo....
  Yer actually double counting me on that ash-pan method, since Im the same DW owner you just emailed.  

I think the reburner is working sometimes when I dont hear the rumble  For mine the sure test is the magnetic thermometer on the flu pipe on the back of the stove.  If its 450+ and there is no visible smoke coming out the top of the stack, and the heat-distorted exhaust from the stack is exiting quickly, then I presume its working.  If the temp drops low, almost inevitably smoke starts coming out the stack and its time to kickstart it again.

In MA we just wrapped up a cold snap where I was burning almost continuously for several days.  The interior stack was warm to the touch the whole time, even to the point of almost burning my hand w/ prolonged contact.  The draft was substantially better as you might expect, but even then I did have the occassional stalling of the reburner after a reload.  I found that keeping a certain depth of hot burning coals was essential, much thicker than I'd like because that means more frequent reloads of fresh splits.  

Def let me know how you make out w/ creating your own handles.  Definitely dont just remove the blunt insert and screw onto a handle receiver, as the ceramic handle becomes scorching hot in just a few minutes.  Im off to Home Despot in a few w/ my broken handle to find some same-sized bolts that I can make handles with.  Still debating what to cover the bolts with.  If I can find a Russo/Lopi handle which has the coils, Im shooting for that.


----------



## tradergordo

The bolt (for the handle) is 3 & 1/4 inch long, and 1/4 inch diameter.

Since these welding hammers:
http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=38853
are on sale for just $2 right now (with coupon) I was thinking about some way to take its handle and use it for our stove - it has the nice wire wrap, but this would probably require some welding unless you can thread a bolt right thru it, I'll have to look into it.

Green - you reminded me that I really should try burning with smaller splits.  You would probably laugh if you saw what I've been burning (mostly enormous splits, which do burn forever but not as hot).  I really need to go out and resplit about half my wood.  I'm sure I would get faster coal beds that way.

As for starting - this is what I found works best for me (and does create a decent coal bed).  I’ve been using super dry pallet wood (probably pine or poplar).  There are free pallets all over the place around me, so I got a couple trailers full and chainsawed them all up.  This is way easier and works so much better than collecting, breaking up, and using small branches or splits.  I also discovered that those 6 lbs. duraflame logs make awesome dirt cheap firestarters.  I took one of them outside and used the circular saw to cut a lot of groves in it, then pulled chunks apart by hand to make 45 firestarters from one log.  They are easy to light, burn a long time, and burn hot.  The best thing is that they make almost no smoke or fly ash as opposed to using newspaper, bark, leaves, or lots of little twigs.  The log was like $2.70 so that comes to about 6 cents per firestarter but I've found that I can break them in half again and use it to start in two places for faster starts.

p.s.  I had another "thermo-nuclear" fire last night, so I'm definitely learning how to properly operate this stove.  When you get a good everburn going, it is really efficient and long burning.  It got a little out of hand last night though, my bedroom upstairs at one point hit 77 degrees, I had to close the doors and open a window it was so hot.


----------



## elkimmeg

I made mine using 5/8" dowel center boring counter sink the  top so you wan't touch metal and used 3.5" 1/4 thread screwed it in  has not burned off yet


----------



## BurningIsLove

Im also a big fan of cheap kindling.....my stove installation was part of a much larger addition which included a 2-car garage & wood shop above the garage.  So I have piles upon piles of KD pine scrap that I use to create my initial coal bed.  But being softwood, it takes a lot of scrap volume to create any appreciable coals.   I love using my splitting maul, my last set of rounds I hauled out of the woods I reduced practically to kindling size, but of course they wont be seasoned until next year.  So I'll probably split up some medium splits as well.

I have the same overheating problem when my stove gets into the zone... I leave the door to the garage (right next to the stove) wide open, as well as opening the big french doors by the stove a few inches, else the living room gets well into the 90s and the upstairs into the low 80's.  I also sometimes flip on the HVAC blower which is super inefficient at distributing heat, but it does bleed off some heat into the basement while keeping the living room tolerable.


----------



## tradergordo

elkimmeg said:
			
		

> I made mine using 5/8" dowel center boring counter sink the  top so you wan't touch metal and used 3.5" 1/4 thread screwed it in  has not burned off yet



Heh - I didn't even think wood handles were an option!


----------



## BurningIsLove

I was debating creating wooden handles on my lathe, had seen them on a stove in my local stove shop.

Elkimmeg, since I can create any length/diameter I want making them from scratch, would you recommend the same size as your dowel (5/8") or a larger diameter?  How hot do your handles get after continual operation?


----------



## BurningIsLove

Here is a shot I took of my DW in thermo-nukular mode (OK, in reality I took about 50 pics).  I liked this one since it captures a random gas pocket mid-explosion......it was also one of the few that were reasonably straight and in focus.  

Stove was about 550 at the time (my BAC about .15)


----------



## Sandor

Wow, great pic!

Is this the same stove that Trader had an Ebay link to - for $999 brand new?

If so, must be the deal of the century!


----------



## elkimmeg

Here is a picture of both handles I made, the griddle handle and front doors handle

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n10/elkimmeg/IM006495.jpg


----------



## BurningIsLove

Im not sure which link on ebay he posted, here's the Vermont Casting product link (no price obviously)

http://www.vermontcastings.com/content/products/productdetails.cfm?id=188

At the dealer I purchased mine from, there was a moderate jump in price from the small-->medium size, but almost no difference from the medium-->large size (under $100).  I dont think I agree w/ their claim about 14 hour burn times, but if I load it before bed, it still has enuf hot coals in the morning to easily get it going again.  I'd say 10 hours w/ the reburner engaged is even a bit optimistic.  You can load an impressive amount of splits into it, 3x3 big splits onto a bed of coals, made even easier by the side loading door.  I havent tried loading exclusively large, all-nite burner splits to test the max burn time.

As you can see from the pic, the glass front is large and is referred to by my buddies as 'the best HD channel in the house'.  It doesnt have an airwash system like Lopi stoves, but the glass stays very clean on its own if you run a hot fire.  A simple wipe down w/ a moist paper towel (when not burning) cleans what little residue builds up over a few days of continual burning.


----------



## Corie

BurningIsLove, I think you're mislead about the airwash system.  All primary air enters the firebox from above the door though, no?


----------



## BurningIsLove

Im not sure actually where it enters on my particular stove, it could be above the door.  Lopi I believe has a patent on something they call AirWash (or something similar) which is advertised as a way to keep the viewing glass from getting any residue.  It's not something I've really looked at, aka it aint broken......


----------



## tradergordo

According to the manual, the primary air manifold is inside the piece that the frame of the front door touches, so I guess this could be considered "air washed glass" although for some reason I've never seen VC advertise this.

As for the eBay listing, yes, it was for the same model (2479) and was $999 shipped brand new.  Although it sold fast and I haven't seen others listed that low since.  But you reminded me of something I need to add to my review - one of the best features of this stove, its price!

p.s.  Love the pic Burning.  I just got (finally) a new digital camera to replace my old one which died.  I'll take pics of my next fire.


----------



## Corie

Yeah, it may not be the same system that Woodstock or Lopi uses, but the fact that all primary air enters the firebox via a manifold above the door opening which causes the air to fall across the door gives the stove an airwash.  

Not trying to be nit picky, and I'm sorry if I came off that way.


----------



## BurningIsLove

certainly no offense taken on my side....any comments, good or bad, are a great learning experience in my view!  

I think Lopi actually put a patent on the term "air wash" when referring to stoves.  But apparently after looking at mine, that is the standard practive, patent or other wise.


----------



## BrotherBart

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> ...any comments, good or bad, are a great learning experience in my view!



Well then you will certainly get the equivilent of a Master's Degree progam if you hang around here.


----------



## tradergordo

Elk sent me a link to a manual for older vermont castings stoves  (thanks again Elk!).  I really like the way this manual was written and wish all manuals today were done like it.  Anyway, the opening paragraph of the "Economics & Efficient Combustion -- The How & Why" section reflects my thoughts exactly:

"It has been our experience that if you understand the inner workings of your stove you will be better equipped to use your stove wisely and to gain maximum savings and pleasure from its daily use.  That is why this section on the efficiency and combustion principles of the stoves is included before you reach the installation information."

This section of the manual contains great information about "horizontal combustion" (fuel limiting) and other technical aspects of their stoves, much of which applies to the newer everburn stoves including the Dutchwest.  I would love to see them update this with more details on the latest design elements in their stoves.

-Gordo

p.s.  Finally got a new camera, so I'll take some pics this week, also got started on making my own handles...


----------



## tradergordo

Just finished making my own custom handles.  Only because Elk did it first, I decided to make them from wood 
But I must say there is almost no way these puppies will burn, I had a bunch of leftover flame stop (liquid fire retardant) and I soaked the handles in it before painting them with high temp paint.

I used 4 3.5" carriage bolts, 4 washers, and a wooden dowel I had laying around.  I cut the dowel to 3 inch lengths, drilled with 1/4" bit (getting it straight was a total pain even with a drill press) and counter-sync'd it first with a 1/2" bit, then just the center with a small counter-sync bit that the interior part of the bolt head sinks down into.  Here are some pics.


----------



## tradergordo

Finished product...


----------



## BurningIsLove

Those look so great attached to the stove, nice job!   I took a chunk of seasoned red oak kindling (about 3"x3" x 12" long), turned it on the lathe, and have roughed out a set of 3 handles.  Still debating whether I have the time (or skill) to do any fancy lathe-work designs.  

Does the flame retardant 'stain' the wood appreciably?  I kinda like the natural wood look being an amateur woodworker.  Is there a fire concern coating them w/ woodturning finish? It's designed to seep into the wood and preserve the grain, as well as prevent cracking.  

And thx for posting that older VC manual, it was very enlightening!


----------



## tradergordo

I also really like the natural wood look in general, but wasn't sure it was such a good idea here, first of all, I think only a dark wood or stain is going to go with the black stove aesthetically, and second I figured the high temp paint would be an added level of protection.  The flame retardant didn't seem to stain the wood at all, although it might have different affects on different types of wood.   

My thinking was that the washer would dissipate a little heat and shield the wood a bit, and the carriage bolt head is sunken into the handle but also exposed and unpainted so that it will also dissipate heat away from the handle.  I applied flame retardant and high temp paint on the inside of the handles as a precaution.  The flame retardant was expensive, but it works very well, I tested it on a highly flammable piece of fabric and it worked great, they have other test videos on their website.  I treated everything around the stove with the stuff (curtains, carpet, couch) - don't know what is in it, but its completely non-toxic and very effective.






			
				BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Those look so great attached to the stove, nice job!   I took a chunk of seasoned red oak kindling (about 3"x3" x 12" long), turned it on the lathe, and have roughed out a set of 3 handles.  Still debating whether I have the time (or skill) to do any fancy lathe-work designs.
> 
> Does the flame retardant 'stain' the wood appreciably?  I kinda like the natural wood look being an amateur woodworker.  Is there a fire concern coating them w/ woodturning finish? It's designed to seep into the wood and preserve the grain, as well as prevent cracking.
> 
> And thx for posting that older VC manual, it was very enlightening!


----------



## elkimmeg

want to turn therm dark expose the wood to a propane torch to darken it to a stain like finish


----------



## BurningIsLove

elkimmeg, do you have fire retardant or other finishes on your handles, or are they raw wood?  How hot do they get after a long burn?  I was gonna bench test mine, but its been horrifically hot up in New England (for November) and I havent burned in about 2 weeks.  THe oil heat hasnt even kicked on in days, and the house was 71 this morning when I woke up. 

Stoopid weather system....where's that lovely, cold, dry Canadian air?


----------



## elkimmeg

plain  normal birch dowel material I haven't burnt my hand yet they will get warm  but so far nothing to be concerned about I also made the d griddle handles on both stoves or any other missing handle. So far in 3 years they have not burned off yet


----------



## tnroadkill

i have the same dutchwest stove, i heat 1800 sq. feet. this is 2 nd. winter to use it. 
the only trouble i have with mine is when tempurate get into 20's and have a REAL good draft i get a good fire going, then shut off top damper to start the main burn the stove will make a roaring sound and it does not matter how much you try to close it do it will keep getting hotter and roaring
i made me a damper to go on  the connector that is use for outsde air. now if it seems to be drafting too hard i can close it down a couple minutes until draft settles down then open back up, then it works like a charm.

wish i had seen this post earlier gordo i work in tool and die i could have made you some removable  polish brass handle


----------



## tradergordo

tnroadkill said:
			
		

> i have the same dutchwest stove, i heat 1800 sq. feet. this is 2 nd. winter to use it.
> the only trouble i have with mine is when tempurate get into 20's and have a REAL good draft i get a good fire going, then shut off top damper to start the main burn the stove will make a roaring sound and it does not matter how much you try to close it do it will keep getting hotter and roaring
> i made me a damper to go on  the connector that is use for outsde air. now if it seems to be drafting too hard i can close it down a couple minutes until draft settles down then open back up, then it works like a charm.
> 
> wish i had seen this post earlier gordo i work in tool and die i could have made you some removable  polish brass handle



That's interesting, what kind of flue and chimney setup do you have (length, bends, interior/exterior)?  Ideally that everburn "roar" really SHOULD continue for a long time after you close the damper, that means it is efficiently burning the secondary gasses, although its not supposed to keep getting hotter and hotter when the primary air is closed (mine seems to stabilize around 600-650 degrees).  What temps do you see and how are you measuring them?  Have you examined and tested your door gaskets?

p.s.  The removable polished brass handle sounds nice - you should sell them to Vermont Castings because almost anything would be better than their delicate ceramic handle!  I wonder how many dealers get complaints from their customers about damaged handles?  Have you made any custom handles for your own stove?  I would love to see some pics!  The problem with using any type of metal for a permanent handle is that it probably would get very hot unless you can figure out a good way to insulate, or use some kind of wire wrap like you see on other stoves.


----------



## tnroadkill

triple metal pipe from ceiling to cap12 feet total,  after reading your post i do not run up to 600 or 650  we could not stay in house  temp would be so hot would have to keep windows and doors open  i have checked all gaskets i measure temp. on top of stove

THANKS


----------



## tradergordo

tnroadkill said:
			
		

> triple metal pipe from ceiling to cap12 feet total,  after reading your post i do not run up to 600 or 650  we could not stay in house  temp would be so hot would have to keep windows and doors open  i have checked all gaskets i measure temp. on top of stove
> 
> THANKS



Have you ever adjusted the latches on your doors? The gasket compresses over time.  But from what you've said, it sounds like its running as it was designed to really.  Stovetop temps are different than flue temp though -- the 600-650 I mentioned is the internal flue temp (measured with a probe thermometer).  

I think stovetop should be around 450-550? Although CFM says its designed to run safely at up to 700 measured externally.  I usually run the flue temp up to 800+ before I damper down.  It is a pretty big stove so I could definitely see someone getting baked out of the room when its burning as hot as its intended to.  My house almost seems like it was designed to be heated with a woodstove - the hot air spreads out without building up too much in any one room although it has gotten into the high 70's a few times which to me is way too hot so I had to open windows.  My wife managed to get the house into the 80's when I wasn't there - but it was like 50 outside at the time


----------



## BurningIsLove

Same advice as tradergordo....I also have the same DW, and it's happy range is 520-550 as measured from by a magnetic thermometer resting on the single walled flue pipe horizontally out the back fo the stove.  Much below that and the reburner just isnt hot enough to engage, and it can choke the stove and reduce draft.    It will work fine in temps below that w/ the bypass open.

I totally hear ya that when it's in 'thermonuclear zone' as we've described on this thread, that the stove throws out way more heat than is comfortable for a ~2000 sq ft space, espec if well insulated.   I'm fortunate that my stove is right next to the door to an unheated, but well insulated, 2 story garage/shop, so a lot of heat is drawn out the door and keeps the garage around 65 in low temps.  I also moderate the living room by cracking certain exterior doors/windows to create a draft that pulls cool, fresh air from the outside across the stove and keeps the living room tolerable.  Without that, I've gotten the living room into the 90's before.  I've found it's better to run the stove hotter in the zone it prefers and bleed excess heat outside than to run it at a lower temp with the bypass open.  Not only is it better for draft/chimney health, but it increases burn times when it's burning horizontally.


----------



## BurningIsLove

This probably comes as no surprise, but now that it's cold again outside (currently 27 and dropping) and the drafting is better, it has really made a difference in the operating temp of the reburner.  It's noticeably less finicky, and the everburn roar is present at much lower temps.  Normally my reburner would stall below 500 when it was warmer out.  Now it runs consistently around 420, and what a magical temp that is.  

Again, not going strictly by the prescence/absence of the everburn rumble.  Also gauging the performance by whether there are visible emmissions from the top of the stack (none whatsoever when the reburner is working well) as well as the glow of the actively burning splits and the horizontal deflection of the few flames.


----------



## tradergordo

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> This probably comes as no surprise, but now that it's cold again outside (currently 27 and dropping) and the drafting is better, it has really made a difference in the operating temp of the reburner.  It's noticeably less finicky, and the everburn roar is present at much lower temps.  Normally my reburner would stall below 500 when it was warmer out.  Now it runs consistently around 420, and what a magical temp that is.
> 
> Again, not going strictly by the prescence/absence of the everburn rumble.  Also gauging the performance by whether there are visible emmissions from the top of the stack (none whatsoever when the reburner is working well) as well as the glow of the actively burning splits and the horizontal deflection of the few flames.



Yes, I noticed the same exact thing.  Was a little surprised to see the everburn working in the 400 range, that's good news!

EDIT on 12/8/06 to add:
Pretty nice that on the first day we had teen temperatures I got the best burn ever out of my new stove.  It was 73F in the bedroom when I woke up, 19 outside.  I guess that officially settles the question in my mind that the stove would be capable of heating my entire house all winter without having to use any backup heat source.  

What I did that worked so well was stuff a giant UNSPLIT log into the stove on top of two big splits.  It burned nice and hot for 8 hours before I threw more wood on in the morning.  Temp actually hit 80 degrees in the bedroom at one point.  I got the log from the local dump, no idea what species, it looked really dry despite being unsplit, had no bark, probably had been laying around for years.  Wish I had more wood like that!  I guess this goes to show me the joy of burning really dry wood (or even better, really dry unspit wood that isn't rotten, which seems pretty rare).


----------



## Gooserider

One quick question on the stove dimension - how high is the flue exit?  We have a definite height limit on our chimney setup, the current stove comes straight out the back at 21" center height (bottom of pipe 18" top at 24") above the hearth, and can't really be pushed any higher w/o major masonry work.  Is the stove's flue exit low enough to work with this?

Gooserider


----------



## BurningIsLove

Unfortunately it's taller than your current setup.   The large stove (comes in S/M/L sizes) has an exit height of 30".  One the small stove it's still taller than 21" (27" according to the product manual.

The legs are removable, but I dont think that's very advisable to have it sitting directly on the hearth.


----------



## Gooserider

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Unfortunately it's taller than your current setup.   The large stove (comes in S/M/L sizes) has an exit height of 30".  One the small stove it's still taller than 21" (27" according to the product manual.
> 
> The legs are removable, but I dont think that's very advisable to have it sitting directly on the hearth.



Bummer...  :-/  How tall are the legs?  Do you know if it would be possible to get (or make) shorter legs, or put the stove on something like a stack of fire bricks to give it some spacing, but still lower the height? I have clearance issues on the front because of the loading door, but under where the stove would go is at least 3" of brick, so the legs hopefully aren't as big an issue as they could be with some setups.

Gooserider


----------



## tradergordo

If you don't mind violating code (which generally exists for your own protection) you can do just about anything.  The legs are only 6 inches though, so you still might not have enough room at least for the large (2479).  A friend of mine had similar lower clearance requirements and the only stove he could find that he could legally install was the quadrafire isle royale with its special optional shorter legs.



			
				Gooserider said:
			
		

> BurningIsLove said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately it's taller than your current setup.   The large stove (comes in S/M/L sizes) has an exit height of 30".  One the small stove it's still taller than 21" (27" according to the product manual.
> 
> The legs are removable, but I dont think that's very advisable to have it sitting directly on the hearth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bummer...  :-/  How tall are the legs?  Do you know if it would be possible to get (or make) shorter legs, or put the stove on something like a stack of fire bricks to give it some spacing, but still lower the height? I have clearance issues on the front because of the loading door, but under where the stove would go is at least 3" of brick, so the legs hopefully aren't as big an issue as they could be with some setups.
> 
> Gooserider
Click to expand...


----------



## BurningIsLove

Right....the area of my hearth under the heat shield is usually quite cool, even after continuous operation.  But there is also a good amount of airflow in my setup between the shield-hearth and the firebox-shield.  Also the reburner is on the lower-back of the firebox vs. on top like many other stoves, and that part does get rather warm after continuous operation.  If you sat the stove directly on the hearth to fit your flue setup, you'd probably crack the brick.  

Also, the (optional) fan kit attaches below the plane of the firebox-shield, so you wouldnt be able to access the baffles with that kit or anything else you make custom.


----------



## mikeathens

I just started looking at these posts today, and I'm wondering if anyone has actually heard from anyone with a technical background on the stoves that the "roar" and 600+ degree flue tems are "normal"?  I was scared to death when mine "took off", and I had a surface thermometer temp of 650 degrees F on the connector pipe, and aobut 550 on the stove.  After about 45 minutes, the temp on my connector dropped to 450, but the roar was still there and the temp still seemed way too high for a stove that was supposed to be so efficient.  Afterall, that's A LOT of energy going up the chimney and being lost.  I have had other times with a fresh (smaller) fire and chimney temp of 200, with NO SMOKE, and no noise and a firebox at 450 or so (this is how I have heard they should operate).

I called the dealer (about 20 times), another dealer, VC tech support (twice), and ALL of them told me that there should not be much, if any, noise from the stove.  I was also told by VC tech support that if I hear a roar, it means that I am overfiring the stove.  By the way, I have a large non-cat Dutchwest that I got less than a year ago to replace a "too small" small Dutchwest catalytic.

I have not been able to get a straight answer from anyone about this percieved problem.  Has anyone experiencing this same thing ever heard (from anyone with any formal training with these stoves) that a 600+ degree flue temp and a jet-engine roar from the back of the stove is normal?  I am curious to hear what other professionals say.  It seems that either we are all doing things right, or there needs to be a major recall on this stove so that we don't burn our houses down...It doesn't seem like anyone has any answers for how they are *SUPPOSED* to be operated...


----------



## greenergrass

I have had tepatures of 300 surface and 350 on the pipe and still heared the roar sound with no visible smoke coming from the stack. I have also had high temps (450+) on both with no noise and some smoke coming out of the stack. I just try to see flames at all times in the firebox and dont really worry about temps unless they reach over 650 to 700 on the surface.


----------



## tradergordo

Part of the problem might be the subjective nature of the term "roar".  I personally don't use the term, I refer to it as the "everburn rumble".  Its not like a lion roaring, its actually pretty quiet really.  I am 100% convinced that it is not burning efficiently if it isn't rumbling during the "pre-coals" portion of the burn cycle (i.e. when smoke is being produced).  That sound is the sound of secondary combustion, where all of the smoke is consumed in a continuous burn taking place inside the secondary combustion portion of the stove.   I believe I've already posted it in this thread, but I have received detailed operating instruction confirmation from the cfm techs including normal flue temps.   I will double check my notes, but I believe a flue temp as high as 800 continuous is still not considered over firing.  Yes, this would represent a lot of heat loss out the chimney - one reason I have a nice long internal flue.


----------



## mikeathens

tradergordo said:
			
		

> ...I believe I've already posted it in this thread, but I have received detailed operating instruction confirmation from the cfm techs including normal flue temps.   I will double check my notes, but I believe a flue temp as high as 800 continuous is still not considered over firing.



tradergordo:

I am interested in seeing the proper firing instructions that you were talking about - I was not able to find them on this post, and CFM techs have given me multiple (apparently WRONG information about operation).  It seems that none of the CFM "technical" people have any clue about or experience with these stoves.

I have been having a pretty rough time getting my stove to fire "correctly" (I use that term loosely since I am not yet sure what correctly is).  At different times, I have had SURFACE stove temps of 400 F and SURFACE chimney temp of 200, with no "rumble" and ZERO smoke emissions (after a fresh load).  On the other end of the spectrum, I have had stove SURFACE temps of 550 F and chimney surface temps of 400+ F with a good rumble and a smokey chimney.  Then, there was the one time when my stove went "thermonuclear", as you called it, with stove at 700F surface and chimney surface temp of 650 F (with a good loud rumble and no smoke).  All temperatures are measured with the typical magnetic thermometer.  Stove thermometer is just above and to the right of the loading door, where the single-wall metal is with no refractory.  Chimney thermometer is at eye level when standing.  Burning seasoned oak "blocks" from the local pallet maker (average 4" X 6" X 15")

This past weekend, it seemed the norm for a 500 stove and 200 chimney temp - no rumble, no smoke.  As you can see, quite a bit of variation, and I have been lacking that consistency that engineers such as myself need in life to avoid all sorts of internal and external turmoil.  I have been losing sleep thinking about all of the differnet factors contributing to the inconsistent performance of my stove, and have not been able to make any sense of it.

I have noticed that in order to achieve the best results, I have to place some small blocks/sticks parallel to the sides of the stove and then place larger logs perpendicular, to create a space under the load of wood directly in front of the throat of the everburn (so you can look through the front window and see the throat through a sort of "tunnel".  Then, the flames go directly into the refractory and seem to give me better results.  If I lay my firewood in there as you normally would (on the bed of coals, parallel to the long axis of the stove, it will be very smokey outside.  This is even with lots of coals raked to the back.  I have also noticed that it is very difficult to get the chimney surface temp up to over 400 with the damper open, unless I leave one of the doors cracked for a few minutes

So, if any of you out there have any advice, I'd love to hear it - or just tricks that you might have to get consistent results, and good performance.  I am wondering if I need to extend my chimney for better draft?  It is currently 5 feet of connector followed by 9 feet of prefab metalbestos chimney (extends about 6 feet out of a flat roof).

I would really appreciate some feedback


----------



## elkimmeg

from your manual
The recommended maximum length of a hori- 
zontal run is 3 feet (1m)


For proper draft and good performance, the chimney 
should extend at least 16’ (5 m) above the flue collar of 
the stove. 


 if you have bends /elbows the chimney height must be increased 2.5" for 45 degree elbows or bends and 5" for 90 degree elbows or bends

 I do noot know your entire venting setup but from whqat you wrote it appears to be on the short side remember the 16' is minium  horrizontal rise 20' is better 
 which equates to better draft  better stove preformance you stove opperates best 500 and above i to initiate secondary combustion.

If y you are calling the CFM 1800 nunber and getting techs in the corporate office   I can see where the info   is miss leading I talk to the manager head of engineering and I have pprovide his phone ## on the forum before. I think it is time to re read your manual and check you chimney and draft requirement. Obtaining minium height  may equate to minium acceptable preformance
  which you have now with less that required verticle rise. Again your situation  will require and should now require  chimney support system 6" un supported exceeds the unsupported distance


----------



## tradergordo

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> I have been lacking that consistency that engineers such as myself need in life to avoid all sorts of internal and external turmoil.  I have been losing sleep thinking about all of the different factors contributing to the inconsistent performance of my stove, and have not been able to make any sense of it.



Haha, I actually know exactly what you are talking about!  I think we have a lot in common.  I also agree that the CFM techs (not to mention the owner's manual) are not always that helpful.  I was a little ticked off when I first read in the user's manual (page 19 under the heading "Successful Wood Burning") "Woodburning is often said to be more of an art than a science."  I thought, come on, that's ridiculous, tell me what the variables are and lets turn this into all science.  Part of me still feels that way, but experience shows that there are an awful lot of variables (species of wood, size & shape of wood, configuration and orientation of wood, quantity of wood, moisture level of wood, climate, outdoor temperature, outdoor and indoor air pressure, humidity, flue and chimney configuration, flue and chimney materials, flue height, chimney height, type of chimney cap, blockage in chimney, management of coals, management of ash, thermal mass, and I'm sure I missed at least a dozen other factors).

I'm still trying to learn a few things myself, the most important of which is what is the best way to quickly produce a large bed of lasting red hot coals.  Every species of wood has different coaling properties, this is the #1 factor in the variability as it relates to operating this stove.  Other factors for creating that initial coal bed include the size of the pieces of wood you initially use and how the pieces are placed.  These are all things I'm still experimenting with and learning about.  It seems that placing the wood perpendicular to the front door could make it burn slightly faster and hotter due to the flow of air from front to back or top but you can only place small lengths in that direction.  Small splits obviously will burn faster and hotter because of the increased surface area.

At any rate, the key to a good burn is to first get a really big red hot bed of coals - and again, the more input on the best way to do this the better - but most will just put a big pile of small splits in there with a bunch of kindling and let it completely burn down to coals, which could take an hour or longer, and of course the bypass is open during this period.  Once you have your coals, you are going to use a shovel or other tool to push them all towards the center/back of the stove, its OK if coals go into the "throat".  Then you pile on some fresh splits, smaller stuff first, big stuff on the top, and let it catch fire.  This is when you want to start paying attention to temps.  I think a probe flue thermometer is the best way to measure temps, everything else is inaccurate but as long as you measure consistently you should be able to compensate.  All my temps are internal flue temps (your external numbers might be as much as half of my flue temp readings).  I've revised my opinion here a couple of times but I now believe you want to see the new wood pretty much engulfed in flame with a flue temp of at least 700 and probably better at 800 before closing the bypass (I wouldn't rule out going up to 1000).  This might take 20 minutes or longer if you do it by the book, or about 3 minutes if you crack the ash pan door (which probably voids your warrantee  ).  Whatever you do, do NOT leave the stove unattended with the ash pan door open.  

At this point you close the bypass and you will hear the everburn rumble (the giant sucking sound as Ross Perot would say).  Sometimes after things settle down its quiet enough that you might have to go around back and listen right near the air inlet flange.

This is another point where you will see a lot of variability, and I think it is mostly related to the quality and type of wood you are burning.  If all is well (dry wood) the stove should go "thermonuclear" with the everburn rumble sustaining itself for as long as the new wood has not burned down to coals.  Sometimes there is a delay, where the everburn dies down but returns with passion after some time (could even be hours later as a thicker bed of coals is established or more wood catches fire).  

Continuous temps of up to 900 are not impossible, but 600-800 is more typical.  Sometimes the temps will go down as low as 500 especially as the wood is well consumed but I don't think I've ever heard an everburn going at temps below 500.  As Elk said in this thread "things in motion tend to stay in motion; you get a good secondary burn it tends to continue" - this is true.  Once you get a good secondary burn its hard to ruin it, you can add wood and damper down almost immediately.  If the secondary burn is not so good, when adding wood you should push ash away from the throat opening in the back and move fresh coals over.  You also don't want to just toss a huge split right onto your bed of coals.  I find it works better if you can add wood before things have completely burned down to coals, otherwise you need to build things back up with small splits in first and a pause before dampering down.  

Recently I accidentally made a red hot coal tunnel to the throat opening which produced fantastic results (basically red hot coals on the bottom and a red hot split of coaling wood that was above the throat opening so all exhaust had to pass though this "coal tunnel").  I think this is another case where "art" is involved - sculpting those coals for an ideal secondary burn, which is any configuration where the exhaust is forced though red hot coals before it hits the secondary burn chamber.


----------



## tradergordo

Another comment about operating temps - there are none in the manual, and any given CFM tech or stove shop owner is probably not going to be able to give you accurate information unless they have personally used one extensively (like in their own home for at least a month).  Even my own temps may not be the same as yours because of the particulars of my setup, or even the accuracy and location of my thermometer.

And finally, if all of this sounds like a lot of futzing around - well, it is!  So I can totally see why this particular stove might not go over so well with a lot of wood burners (especially new ones).  But then again as I've always said, I don't have experience with other stoves so I don't really know how it compares.  I've pretty much gotten used to the way this stove works and love the big heat it is capable of producing.  I don't like all the smoke it produces in the initial stages as you prepare for efficient burning, but I assume this is pretty typical of any stove, you can't get efficient burns until you have established "thermal mass".  With a catalytic stove you have to get the cat up to temp, with "burn tube" type stoves you have to get the burn tubes up to temp and those will probably produce the most smoke because its harder to keep tubes at the top of the stove hot than it is to keep a bed of coals at the bottom of the stove hot except perhaps when starting a new fire before the bed of coals has been established.


----------



## mikeathens

> from your manual
> The recommended maximum length of a hori-
> zontal run is 3 feet (1m)
> 
> For proper draft and good performance, the chimney
> should extend at least 16’ (5 m) above the flue collar of
> the stove.
> 
> if you have bends /elbows the chimney height must be increased 2.5” for 45 degree elbows or bends and 5” for 90 degree elbows or bends
> 
> I do noot know your entire venting setup but from whqat you wrote it appears to be on the short side remember the 16’ is minium horrizontal rise 20’ is better
> which equates to better draft better stove preformance you stove opperates best 500 and above i to initiate secondary combustion.
> 
> If y you are calling the CFM 1800 nunber and getting techs in the corporate office I can see where the info is miss leading I talk to the manager head of engineering and I have pprovide his phone ## on the forum before. I think it is time to re read your manual and check you chimney and draft requirement. Obtaining minium height may equate to minium acceptable preformance
> which you have now with less that required verticle rise. Again your situation will require and should now require chimney support system 6” un supported exceeds the unsupported distance






My chimney is straight through the roof - no bends, no nothing.  As far as "minimum" heights, I have had professional chimney installers tell me that it only needs to extend 3 feet from the roof (which I don't buy).  That's what I started with, and, up until two weeks ago, had 9 feet out of the roof.  I removed 3 feet because I was told it was overfiring by CFM - that was the suggested solution.  (I still have to get that section back up there).  That will get me to the required 16 feet.  Trust me - I have been through that manual countless times.  I would like for someone to reiterate their experiences with chimney and stove temps with a *SURFACE* thermometer.  I am not really clear on temperatures that have been posted here because some have stated that they have a probe thermometer.  650 F surface is the pipe temp that mine was running at with the damper closed a week or so ago (does that equate to 1300 F internal?  Yikes...).

Again - I'm interested in seeing the operating instructions obtained from CFM!

Oh yeah...I had been using a catalytic dutchwest for the past 5 years in my old (insulated) house and my new uninsulated house - start the fire, let it burn nice and hot, shut the damper, and the catalyst thermometer would let you know if it was working properly. Very easy to use.  Start the fire and I was able to shut the damper 20 minutes later (for real).  I went with the non-cat because my 1800 sq ft old (1800's old) log cabin was way too drafty and leaky for a small dutchwest to keep up with.  The large non-cat model gave me one of the highest heat outputs and let me keep my 6" chimney!  Last night it got down to 10 outside - the house was a toasty 82 near the stove and a comfortable 68 upstairs.


----------



## tradergordo

I suspect you may believe your stove is overfiring even though it is not.  I also suspect CFM gave you bad advice and I would restore your chimney to its previous height.  I strongly recommend you get a probe thermometer, then we can compare flue temps.  Like I said, flue temps of up to 900 are not overfiring, nothing will glow orange and you won't damage the stove.  Its meant to burn that hot.  But don't blame me if you ruin your stove   heh.


----------



## mikeathens

This is cool to get some info from others that actually have a clue about things.  Thanks a lot!!  More helpful than 20 of those worthless manuals and 50 tech support guys...


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## BurningIsLove

Mike,
   I have 2 surface thermometers, one on the flue (horizontal) exit, one on the stove.  Currently the flue is single walled, cant get my <expletive> contractor over to replace it with a double wall like he promised that will have a probe thermometer.

Best experiences are when the flue gauge reads about 575-600 sustained (bypass open) for a new fire, then I can close it and hear the `rumble' w/ no visible smoke.  Easily 50% of the time it stalls even though I am using dry, seasoned wood.  It is really tempermental about the depth & orientation of the coal bed, as well as the coaling splits.  But as tradergordo said, once you get it established, its more or less on autopilot after that and will work easily for the life of that fire.   I've found that if its really cold outside (below 30) with good drafting conditions, the reburner will work happily at lower temps (even as low as 400 on the flue gauge).

As for the runaway/thermo-nuclear events, my 'emergency brake' has been to open the cleanout door in the basement (about 12 feet below the stove).  By tweaking the door angle, I can reduce the draft and get it back to a manageable temp (under 700).  Other than that, I've found no other method to get the stove under control.  I admit it is frustrating why taking wood from the same rack w/ similar outdoor conditions & coal situations sometimes produces a struggling reburner and other times one high on crack.

Another tip I have is that when you refill the firebox w/ fresh splits, try and keep any of the upper splits away from the glass window near the air inlet, as well as stacking to avoid them falling into the glass when the pile inevitably compresses after a few hours.  When they are too close to the glass, the very top smolders/burns with a small flame, and the coal bed glow decreases significantly and the reburner usually stalls.


----------



## mikeathens

Thanks for the info...this sounds more like my experiences with the stove.  Do you also have some troble at times getting the flue surface temp above 400?  Sometimes, it seems that I need to burn for an hour with a pretty good load to get the flue temp up.  By that time, I'm sitting there thinking that it's time to add more wood already and then go through the whole process again - maybe it's just me, but I think I am going through WAY more wood than I think I should.  So pelase reiterate to me how your stove "ran away" from you...what noises did you hear?  What types of surface temps did you observe?  Again, mine was at 650 for about an hour, VERY loud rumble (you could see a violent fire between the flue collar and the connector pipe) and then eventually dropped to 450, which still seemed high, but at least within the orange renge on the thermometer.  I still don't know if this is smoething to worry about or not.  I am considering a connector pipe damper to quell the flames if this happens again, but I don't know if I should bother.  Afterall, 650 surface temp, from what I think I know, is something like 1200 F internal.  My pipe wasn't glowing, though...hmmmmmm...


----------



## hookspacken

Wow, This everburn Tech. seems really fincky and difficult to use. I was thinking maybe switching stoves to make it easier for my wife to use durung the day, try to get away from the catalytic stove. But after reading this I am having second thoughts.


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## BurningIsLove

No problems getting the flue temp above 400, no.  When I add fresh splits, I open the bypass and crank the air inlet all the way down and let the new splits catch.  Even choked of air, flue temp can get higher than 500 within 10 minutes.  Once it reaches 575, I open the air inlet all the way, let it really roast for about 2-3 minutes, then close the bypass.

As for the run-away/nuclear mode, the rumble is very audible, there is no visible flame most times except for the occasional explosion of gas.   Flue surface temps around 650-800, stove surface usually about 50 degrees below the flue temp.  This can be a misleading stat tho as the flue gauge is nearly a real-time measure, while the stove top is more a rolling average.

Im not sure what you mean by seeing a violent fire between the collar & the pipe?  How are you viewing anything at that junction?


----------



## mikeathens

OK, you are definitely having happen what I did.  Maybe you have a way better draft than I do to get your flue temps up that quick - I am only able to achieve those temps quickly when I have a REALLY thick bed of coals in there (like half way or more up the andirons).  I think I'm going to install that flue damper for "emergencies" to kill the draft if needed.  It might be a bit more difficult for you since you have a rear exit flue, but where the connector pipe sits in the flue collar, there is about a 1/16" gap all around.  I can look down from the back of the stove and see one of three things:  When rumbling is happening (either loud or soft), there are flames or a soft glow, respectively.  If no rumbling, it's dark and black down in there.

hookspaken, I really enjoyed my small dutchwest catalytic, and I really miss it.  Too bad it was too small for me. The differences you will see with the non cat is a)  It is easier to maintain flames in the firebox (even though the combustor might not be working and you'll have lots of smoke), b) if you like things to work properly, you will probably be stepping outside constantly to see what the chimney looks like (you can look at the catalyst probe on your cat model to see the temperature climb), and c)  there is a specifc trick to loading the stove - which I am still trying to figure out.  The cat model you just pile the stuff in there (with good air space between pieces, and you in business.  Definitely do some research before you make the switch. The non-cat may or may not be right for you.  I am definitely a big believer in the catalytics.  They are more efficient, have slightly lower emissions, and (in my opinion) are easier to operate.  But who knows, you might get one, build your first fire, and have consistent performance all of the time - and have it easy for your wife to use, too.  My wife can't get the non-cat to work right, but had no problem with the catalytic.


----------



## Gooserider

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> OK, you are definitely having happen what I did.  Maybe you have a way better draft than I do to get your flue temps up that quick - I am only able to achieve those temps quickly when I have a REALLY thick bed of coals in there (like half way or more up the andirons).  I think I'm going to install that flue damper for "emergencies" to kill the draft if needed.  It might be a bit more difficult for you since you have a rear exit flue, but where the connector pipe sits in the flue collar, there is about a 1/16" gap all around.  I can look down from the back of the stove and see one of three things:  When rumbling is happening (either loud or soft), there are flames or a soft glow, respectively.  If no rumbling, it's dark and black down in there.



Mike, that gap may be a big part of your problem - it shouldn't be there for certain!  It may be letting air flow down into the back of the stove and kill the afterburn or accellerate it depending on how well it was able to get going, plus it mixes cooler air with the flue gasses and kills your draft....  I would certainly try to close it up and see if the stove works better for you - I believe the best thing to use on it would probably be refractory cement.  As a temporary measure you might get away with cramming a length of rope gasket into the space.

 Gooserider


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## Rhone

What's everburn technology?  My unit has secondary burn, I don't have any control over it.  I start a fire, make sure there's a space for the flames to reach the burn tubes up top, as the flames reach the secondary burn tubes secondary burn starts up and in several minutes has spread and I get full secondary burn going.  It's about 15 minutes from lighting the kindling to secondary burn starting, another 5 minutes for it to be going in full swing, and about 30 minutes from lighting the kindling for me to turn down the air and have a nice day.  

Everburn must be significantly different.  Anyone have a link to explain what the difference is between everburn & secondary burn?


----------



## Rhone

I found this

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/

Sounds like their everburn technology is similar to my 1975 or so steel stove, it's major selling point was that its exhaust system was placed at the bottom rear, with steel plates to force the smoke to have to go through flames & coals before exiting.  Its advertisement was pretty much they were more efficient than the competition because of that innovative feature and what sold me to purchased that particular stove.  I don't have the advertisement anymore, but my 1975 steel stove did appear to produce less smoke than others having that feature, it's interesting VC is doing similar.  VC looks to take an extra step with what sounds like another chamber in the back?  I guess I'd need to see a diagram of it, to grasp how it's supposed to work.


----------



## Roospike

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> I found this
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/
> 
> Sounds like their everburn technology is similar to my 1975 or so steel stove, their selling point was that they had an exhaust system at the bottom rear which forced the smoke laden exhaust to go through flames & coals before being able to exit, its advertisement was pretty much they were more efficient than the competition by burning the smoke before it exhausts and, is what sold me to purchased that particular stove.  I don't have the advertisement anymore, and my stove certainly did appear to produce less smoke than others, it's interesting VC is doing similar.  VC looks to take an extra step with what sounds like another chamber in the back?  I guess I'd need to see a diagram of it, to grasp how it's supposed to work.



You posted a link to the same thread your posting to now Rhonemas . Have you read the thread yet ? ( now dont ask me which thread )


----------



## Gooserider

Rhonemas said:
			
		

> I found this
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/4188/
> 
> Sounds like their everburn technology is similar to my 1975 or so steel stove, it's major selling point was that its exhaust system was placed at the bottom rear, with steel plates to force the smoke to have to go through flames & coals before exiting.  Its advertisement was pretty much they were more efficient than the competition because of that innovative feature and what sold me to purchased that particular stove.  I don't have the advertisement anymore, but my 1975 steel stove did appear to produce less smoke than others having that feature, it's interesting VC is doing similar.  VC looks to take an extra step with what sounds like another chamber in the back?  I guess I'd need to see a diagram of it, to grasp how it's supposed to work.



The early messages in this thread have a pretty good explanation, and it isn't THAT much different from the steel stove you describe, but it is a more refined approach.  In your steel stove, the problem was that much of the oxygen had already been consumed when the fuel was initially burned, so that when the smoke was pulled back down through the coals it really didn't have enough oxygen left to fully combust the remaining fuel gasses.

The VC approach is to use a very high temperature clay (It's the same stuff they use to line their crucibles in the foundry) to make the back and secondary combustion chambers, which keeps everything very hot, well above the 1200注needed to combust the smoke, they then force the smoke / unburned combustion gasses down through the coal bed into a throat to a secondary burning chamber.  At the same time, they are running un-combusted, oxygen rich air through other passages cast into the same ceramic blocks so that the air also becomes superheated.  The two streams of superheated gasses are combined in the Everburn chamber where they combust, adding their heat back into the ceramics.  The ceramics radiate back into the firebox, further heating the wood and contributing to the fuel gas production, and from there out into the room through the sides of the stove.  The key is the addition of the extra air that gives the oxygen needed to combust nearly every last bit of the unburned fuel gasses, and the pre-heating in the ceramics that ensures the temperature stays high enough.

Thus the idea isn't totally new, but it is a refined and more precise version of it.

 Gooserider


----------



## mikeathens

Gooserider said:
			
		

> Mike from Athens said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK, you are definitely having happen what I did.  Maybe you have a way better draft than I do to get your flue temps up that quick - I am only able to achieve those temps quickly when I have a REALLY thick bed of coals in there (like half way or more up the andirons).  I think I'm going to install that flue damper for "emergencies" to kill the draft if needed.  It might be a bit more difficult for you since you have a rear exit flue, but where the connector pipe sits in the flue collar, there is about a 1/16" gap all around.  I can look down from the back of the stove and see one of three things:  When rumbling is happening (either loud or soft), there are flames or a soft glow, respectively.  If no rumbling, it's dark and black down in there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike, that gap may be a big part of your problem - it shouldn't be there for certain!  It may be letting air flow down into the back of the stove and kill the afterburn or accellerate it depending on how well it was able to get going, plus it mixes cooler air with the flue gasses and kills your draft....  I would certainly try to close it up and see if the stove works better for you - I believe the best thing to use on it would probably be refractory cement.  As a temporary measure you might get away with cramming a length of rope gasket into the space.
> 
> Gooserider
Click to expand...


This "gap" is normal, as far as I know.  I looked at a lot of stoves when I first started burning wood.  The crimped end of the connector sits on top of the tabs inside the flue collar, with the 6" connector slightly smaller than the collar.  It only sits down in there an inch or so...just enough to be able to see the glow or flickering, sort of like if you hold two fingers together side by side near your monitor - though they are practically touching, you can still see the glow behind them.  Maybe 1/16 " was too generous...maybe more 1/32...I've never heard of anyone packing cement or door gasket back there.


----------



## tradergordo

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> This "gap" is normal, as far as I know.  I looked at a lot of stoves when I first started burning wood.  The crimped end of the connector sits on top of the tabs inside the flue collar, with the 6" connector slightly smaller than the collar.  It only sits down in there an inch or so...just enough to be able to see the glow or flickering, sort of like if you hold two fingers together side by side near your monitor - though they are practically touching, you can still see the glow behind them.  Maybe 1/16 " was too generous...maybe more 1/32...I've never heard of anyone packing cement or door gasket back there.



I really don't think that gap is normal and it could be a real problem, if you can see fire anywhere in your flue or around your flue collar, that's a problem!  Is the flue screwed in, and if it is, are you sure the screws are tight?  Also for what its worth, the local stove shop cements around the flue collar on all of their store installed stoves.


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## mikeathens

The pipe is screwed in there.  Hmmmm...maybe another point for VC to add to their operating instructions?  Never heard of that and it's sure not in my manual.


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## elkimmeg

What I do is measure down to the stops and cut my crimped end 1/8" less than the stop so when I silde it in, the rib above the crimp is making a tight seal to the flue collar.  I also place a bead of gasket cement just below the rib and that seals it perfectly. This is a common problem found on most stoves .The flue collar can be recessed to the stops 1" but the crimping is 1.5"

 If you are seeing fire and extra spacing is the recesses of the  crimping.  That's a lot of air getting there, making it much harder to control that stove 
If there is an ash clean out door to that flue  duct tape it to stop additional air from entering that flue. The ash clean out doors leak quite a bit ,
It would not be the first time they caused or contributed to loosing control of your stove.


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## mikeathens

The stove should be cool enough when I get home that I can get the hack saw and give it a try.  I am a bit skeptical, but I'm not just going to brush you guys off, either.  I won't know if it works immediately due to the temperment of my stove...but if it suddenly starts acting like I think it's supposed to, you all will have to let me buy you a couple rounds.  Just to verify...should I use firebrick cement or the rope gasket cement?  I have both.  If it would hold, it seems that the rope gasket cement  would be easier to hide and keep the stove looking nice (instead of some appalachain quick-fix that appears all too common around here - like using an old washing machine for a mailbox stand).


----------



## BrotherBart

It will be interesting to see the results of sealing that flue collar. I have never seen a flue collar leak that did anything other than reduce draft through the stove and send too much cool air up the pipe causing creosote deposits in the pipe.


----------



## Shane

Mike is your damper fully engaged?  Is it possible that it is disengaging sometimes?  The inconsistency in your flue gas temps is really weird.  It is similar to what happened to me early in the year with the stove I'm burning now.  The damper would disengage anywhere from 1/2" to fully open then the flue temp would take off. I had to adjust the tension on it to make it work consistantly.  Also I want to verify that your flue temps accellerate after engaging the everburn system correct?  I want to get all ducks in a row and then I'll call tech for you.  I don't know why you haven't recieved a straight forward answer on the operating temps.  As mentioned in the other thread I called tech and they told me 600 degree stove top 600 degree flue gas when probe thermometer is set 24" above the stove top. In addition he told me that the rumble is going to be there.  Also you are correct in that your internal flue gas temp is roughly twice what your surface temp is.  I tested it today.  I need to correct the fire box temps I told you I was burning at I am in reality burning in the 400-700 range I discovered that my stove top thermometer is roughly 200 degrees off in the higher temp range readings.
So let me make sure my facts are straight.

- You start a fire get firebox temps in the 450-600 range.
- Engage the everburn system at this point the flue gas temps start running away one you and in addition while the flue gas temps are running away the chimney is smoking badly?
- In order to regain control of the stove you have to close the primary air all the way at which point your flue gas temps drop well below 600 and the stove will begin to burn efficiently?


----------



## mikeathens

Shane said:
			
		

> Mike is your damper fully engaged?  Is it possible that it is disengaging sometimes?  The inconsistency in your flue gas temps is really weird.  It is similar to what happened to me early in the year with the stove I'm burning now.  The damper would disengage anywhere from 1/2" to fully open then the flue temp would take off. I had to adjust the tension on it to make it work consistantly.  Also I want to verify that your flue temps accellerate after engaging the everburn system correct?  I want to get all ducks in a row and then I'll call tech for you.  I don't know why you haven't recieved a straight forward answer on the operating temps.  As mentioned in the other thread I called tech and they told me 600 degree stove top 600 degree flue gas when probe thermometer is set 24" above the stove top. In addition he told me that the rumble is going to be there.  Also you are correct in that your internal flue gas temp is roughly twice what your surface temp is.  I tested it today.  I need to correct the fire box temps I told you I was burning at I am in reality burning in the 400-700 range I discovered that my stove top thermometer is roughly 200 degrees off in the higher temp range readings.
> So let me make sure my facts are straight.
> 
> - You start a fire get firebox temps in the 450-600 range.
> - Engage the everburn system at this point the flue gas temps start running away one you and in addition while the flue gas temps are running away the chimney is smoking badly?
> - In order to regain control of the stove you have to close the primary air all the way at which point your flue gas temps drop well below 600 and the stove will begin to burn efficiently?




With my stove, I am positive the damper is fully closed.  It is VERY obvious if it is not - it misses that distinctive "thunk" and the fire acts differently (I actually had a piece of wood block it in the past).

You are correct with your chronology of events, except that when the stove runs away, there is a VERY loud rumbling and NO SMOKE from the chimney.  Also, in your last sentence, the flue gas temp (surface) will drop after 10 minues or so (seems like an eternity), the rumbling will eventually die down, my chimney starts smoking badly.

I do have to say, I sealed my connector last night and had better results, but I have had decent results at times in the past, so I don't want to immediately say "problem solved".  I will keep everyone posted here on my results this weekend.


----------



## mikeathens

Here's a picture of my loaded stove, and one of the setup - if anyone sees anything wrong with this, let me know.  This is typical, so if there is a problem, it could be part of what is going wrong.  This load would work flawlessly with my dutchwest catalytic...


----------



## mikeathens

here's the stove.


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## mikeathens

Another with flash- sort of makes it look like there's no flame...this particular load did quite well.  I had a good stove temp (500), good flue temp (500 surface), and the secondary worked well after a little adjustment of the load a couple of times.  I intentially crammed a lot of wood in there to see if my seal made a difference.  I tried to avoid making my "tunnel" from front to back to the throat of the everburn.  It drives me crazy if I have to be extra careful in making sure there's a clear path at the bottom of the load from front to back.


----------



## begreen

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> here's the stove.



Nice installation Mike. First time I've seen one from a cat's eye point of view. Did you do the tile/stone work yourself? It looks especially nice. What types of stone did you use?  Do you have a human eye view of the same?


----------



## mikeathens

I don't have a picture that's small enough to meet the size limit.  It's all tile - it's the green "Rialto" that you get a Lowes - heavy porcelain that has been smacked with a hammer.  It was done just before I bought the house.  I would have left the tiles whole, but it works.  I eneded up replacing the entire chimney/support package/flashing right after I moved in.  It was a 6" flue with adapter going into 8", which I did not like.  The lady also used the cheap pre-fab stuff that you get at lowes.  I replaced it with Metalbestos SS.  It's amazing that a 3' section of the 6" SS pipe weighs more than the 3' section of the 8" lowes-bought pipe.  I think the stuff at lowes is a lower-end selkirk product.  I don't know why they don't just sell the good stuff everywhere instead of having a cheaper version for wal-mart and lowes?  Duh...


----------



## mikeathens

FYI...we had subzero temps this past weekend with highs in the teens.  My house ranged anywhere from 85 F in the kitchen area to 65 upstairs.  Though I was happy with the heat output, I still noted major inconsistency with the operation.  Specifically, the amount of smoke generated when reloading with a good bed of coals.  It burned very smokey for up to two hours with 500+ stove temp and good flames in the firebox.  I am still truly disappointed with the stove in that respect.  I don't just want lots of heat; I also want a clean, efficient burn.  The stove manufacturer's claim of high efficiency and low emissions seems somewhat innacurate based on what I have seen.

With the connector pipe/collar sealed, I have not yet had another "meltdown", but the flue temp is still above what I would expect (450 F surface temp).  Thanks for everyone's help in figuring out what was causing the problem.  As far as I can tell, that was it.  I think VC should note that the connector pipe should be sealed in their manual - this did not cause a problem with the catalytic model, and appears to be a bigger problem for the everburn stoves.  A big lesson for me, hopefully others reading this thread with the same problem will be able to possibly fix their runaway stoves.

Unfortunately in my situation, consistent, clean burning operation is very important to me.  Though I might be losing a bit of claimed efficiency, my wife and I have decided to change stoves out AGAIN.  This time, we are going with a Hearthstone Heritage.  The switch will be made next saturday.  If anyone is interested, I will provide a back to back comparison of heat output, burn times, ease of operation, and emissions between the Hearthstone and Dutchwest non-cat.  Tooo bad VC can't make an "extra large" catalytic dutchwest with a 6" flue.  That's what I would be going to...


----------



## Corie

What's happening to the Dutchwest mike?


----------



## mikeathens

Corie said:
			
		

> What's happening to the Dutchwest mike?



The dutchwest is going to be exchanged - I'm actually coming out a bit better than if I had bought the HEarthstone a year ago instead of the dutchwest...

The dealer is taking it on trade, he has a buyer that has been looking for a used one.  He is selling me a Heritage that was used for a few days before being returned (still full warranty and dealer support).  All said, I will be looking at coughing up another $650.  Why, are you looking for a used one?


----------



## elkimmeg

Vermont Castings sent me via e-mail

"John Davidson asked about one of these with low heat a few days ago, a large Dutchwest w/ double wall connector (not related I'm quite sure).  Strangely, these comments are the other end of the spectrum.  

Low heat output or lack of efficiency could be several things.  Check the tightness of the fireback bolts and push the shoe all the way in so that its rear edge seals with the soft refractory behind.  Leaks behind the shoe or if the shoe gasket is missing would slow down or even extinguish a fire, depending on where the leak was or which portion of the shoe gasket was missing.  A good coalbed is needed.  Hot coals should be piled around the shoe and loose ash removed (stir at every reload).  The outside air kit would not be expected to result in much more heat from the stove (just less cold air infiltration to the house) and a fan would help distribute heat better.  

If there is not enough heat coming out, is that on the highest setting?  Hopefully, there is a realization that at the lowest setting you get low heat output.  If he's at the highest setting and the output is still low, the loose shoe is the likely culprit.  

Unless there is a compelling clearance issue requiring double wall connector, single wall could be used to get more heat from the pipe as well."


----------



## sstanis

Mike from Athens, once again sorry for your dillema concerning your stove.  I guess maybe the Everburn, as far as the results indicate from this board, was really ready for rollout.  It happens with many things that look good on paper, in theory, limited variable testing.  I have burned the Heritage for 4 yrs and have been generally satisfied.  Over the yrs, based upon my own observations and tidbits gathered from this board, here is my advice concerning the Heritage.

1)  Heritage is made for continous burning.  If your lifestyle allows for it, burn it 24/7.  Meaning that after loading and dampering dwn b4 going to work.  One should realistically expect that it would needed to be reloaded 6 to 8hrs later.

2) At cold start-up, kindling and 1st few splits should be really dry.  Even with well-seasoned wood, it can take some time to get up to good operating temps, therefore the hot fire comes in real handy and will afford you a better,  longer burn.  Not so well seasoned wood can be burnt, but not b4 the stove has been cruising at operating temps for at least 3 hrs.  it is amazing how not so well seasoned wood can kill a fire.  This had lead me to actually have 3 piles:  start-up wood, well-seasoned, not so well seasoned. 

3)  During early fall and late spring, proper draft  is imperative, unless you like smoke spilling out of the back of your stove.

4) Now don't ask me why, but the Heritage burns hot and long with north-south fires.  Like I said, I don't know why, and after reading this board I was still very skeptical on north-south burns being better.  But this supplier around me was selling "chunk" for 100/cord.  Let me tell you that the hottest, longest burn I have ever gotten was with burning this chunk.  This nice thick (avg 7 inches in dia.) and  10" long chunk in a north/south burn is phenomenal (sic).

5) Lastly, do not damper all the way down.  With the heritage, unless you have some air coming from the doghouse, there can be alot of charcoal at times.

I should say that these have been based on my observations and are the only ones that come to mind.  I am sure that other heritage burners would like to add their input


----------



## Rob From Wisconsin

From what I hear, this stove can be a bit finnicky.

How about the "small" everburn stove??
Less fussy??
Heard lots about the larger units w/ everburn.

Rob


----------



## BurningIsLove

I thought the seal between my flue pipe/collar was in OK shape, even though it is only screwed down (per the instruction manual).  However yesterday I was getting ready for another long burn, loaded up the box w/ fresh splits, turned the air up, opened the bypass, and let it go for about 10 minutes.  The fire was really roaring, strong draft was evident.  I closed the bypass which  always forces that large pressure blast through the reburner and causes the largest rumble momentarily.   I didnt see any smoke, but I did see a spark shoot out towards the wall.  So there must be a small leak, even tho I cannot seem to see/hear it.

I cannot move the stove at all, so I wont be able to reseat the flue pipe into the collar.  Will simply applying some gasket cement around the connection point be sufficient?


----------



## mikeathens

I ended putting gasket cement on mine, the way you are talking about.  Seemed to help quell the thermonuclear meltdown events I was having.  You might have trouble getting a good bead with the horizontal exit, though.  I was able to get the glue to run into the crack.  It got nice and fluffy and sealed it up nice.  Try to use black instead of the clear stuff, though.  Mine looked pretty crappy because the clear turned into white on my black flue collar and stove pipe.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Thanks for the tip!


----------



## BurningIsLove

Oh yeah.....,the thing is just plain sensitive..... its dang cold here, the stack is warm, I can hear a faint rumble, and the smoke is clean (what little there is), life is good.  

Most times, the everburn only works when the flue magnetic reads 500+.  On rare occasions it has worked as low as 420 (my stove is a stoner?  who knew), but that worked maybe twice in 2 seasons at most.   Tonight the flue magnetic reads 350 and it's burning well w/ the primary air inlet set to half, and I can raise/lower the temp w/ the inlet and the stove is still burning properly.  In all other prior fires, the air inlet is either set to max to try and get the everburn to work at all, the other times its completely closed to prevent it from burning the house down.  Tonight is the behavior I'm used to with the stoves I've used to in the past.

I loaded the splits in the same orientation.  I took wood from the same pile that is the same age/batch as the last dozen fires.  There is a reasonable coal bed but not a massive one like is normally required.  I let the fresh splits, loaded about 3 hours ago, to catch for the same amount of time/magnitude as previous fires.  The garage (where the chimney runs) is actually colder than normal since I've been in & out w/ the snowblower several times today. (that no'earster eventually hit, about 8" of snow)


----------



## tradergordo

Mike from Athens said:
			
		

> If anyone is interested, I will provide a back to back comparison of heat output, burn times, ease of operation, and emissions between the Hearthstone and Dutchwest non-cat.



Just wanted to mention that I am interested in your comparison although since you were unable to get good results out of the Dutchwest your comparison is going to be pretty slanted.  For what its worth, it took me weeks to figure out how to properly run this stove.  Hope you are satisfied with the new stove. 

Also, unrelated, but I linked to it in another thread and feel I should put a link in this official Dutchwest discussion and review thread - this is my video demonstration of everburn (its a huge file, you should right click the link and "save target as" to download it, then play it).

EverburnDemo.avi
This also shows the characteristics of the burn - you can see how the fire looks with the damper open, and how it looks about 20 seconds after closing the bypass to activate the everburn secondary combustion.  What I should have added is what it looked like 15-20 minutes later with the primary air completely cut off.  The flue temps were stable at about 800 degrees F, the slight rumble was still going, and there were basically no flames in the firebox - just nicely glowing orange coals.  This is the beauty of “horizontal combustion” - you get nice hot fires that last as long as possible without the wood on top being consumed too quickly, all with little to no particulate emissions.  A snapshot from an hour or two later would show the everburn still going, with stack temps maybe down to 700, same old glowing fire with little to no flames - keeping the house warm all night long.

Finally, I just got done going though all the different "everburn" threads, I missed most of the discussions when they happened.  One common theme I see is what I think is people closing the bypass too soon.  It took me a while to figure this out on my own (especially because there is no guidance, as far as temps go, in the user manual).  Even in my original review - you can tell I had only just then experienced my first real correct burn (i.e. thermonuclear).  I'm pretty convinced now that to get a good efficient burn, you must take it up to 1000 F internal probe flue temp before closing the bypass (all of my past comments about coals around the throat opening still apply as well though).  If you do the coal thing, and the 1000 degree thing, it pretty much works 100% of the time - again, it took me quite some time to figure this out, but now that I have, I'm getting better performance but it still requires a lot of futzing around!


----------



## BurningIsLove

Great vid!  I am envious of your hearth setup!  Im glad to see that my operations/usage mimic yours.   Do you happen to have a magnetic thermometer laying around?  I am curious of the temps you would observe (probe vs. magnetic).  Im trying to determine a rough estimate of what the interior temp is based on my magnetic readings, as I dont yet have a probe thermometer.  

Like yourself traderg, I'm getting better, more consistent results the more I use the stove.  But the behavior has also been better due to outdoor conditions (dang cold!) and good drafting conditions.  I've also found that creating a small V shape using two small splits on the lowest level when adding new splits sometimes helps.  So if you are looking top-down, the vertex of the V would be closest to you at the front of the stove.  Then load large splits on top of those parallel to the stove front as normal.  Seems to channel the hot gases/smoke towards the throat where the everburn intakes are.


----------



## Gooserider

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Great vid!  I am envious of your hearth setup!  Im glad to see that my operations/usage mimic yours.   Do you happen to have a magnetic thermometer laying around?  I am curious of the temps you would observe (probe vs. magnetic).  Im trying to determine a rough estimate of what the interior temp is based on my magnetic readings, as I dont yet have a probe thermometer.
> 
> Like yourself traderg, I'm getting better, more consistent results the more I use the stove.  But the behavior has also been better due to outdoor conditions (dang cold!) and good drafting conditions.  I've also found that creating a small V shape using two small splits on the lowest level when adding new splits sometimes helps.  So if you are looking top-down, the vertex of the V would be closest to you at the front of the stove.  Then load large splits on top of those parallel to the stove front as normal.  Seems to channel the hot gases/smoke towards the throat where the everburn intakes are.



Hmmm  That "V idea sounds good, but I would have thought it would work better if the point of the "V" was towards the BACK of the stove, rather than the front....  After all the throat and intakes for the Everburn chamber are at the rear of the stove.

 Gooserider


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## tradergordo

Yea, I too have found that the way you configure the wood definitely impacts the secondary burn success.  I think just a big pile of hot coals at the throat is enough, but a "hot coal tunnel" works even better, I think many configurations would work, even two paralel small splits going front to back with the rest of your wood piled on top left to right might help create the tunnel.

Burning... I don't have a magnetic stove pipe thermometer.  I own too many darn thermometers already to buy another one   But I too would be interested in knowing how those temps compare...


----------



## BurningIsLove

On the "V" setup.....yes, two short splits facing N-S would be ideal, however I buck all my splits to about 18-20" which obviously wont fit in N-S orientation.  The reason I place the vertex at the front is because I dont want the open end to cut off the intake tubes in the lower/back section of the stove outside the throat.  Also concerned that they would interfere with drafting which is so critical to making everburn work successfully.  Probably a trade off between reduced velocity & blockage of tubes, altho likely lopsided in one direction......question is which direction?


----------



## Bill

Since it's been a while since you last reviewed the Dutch West are there any updates? How do you like the DW and would you buy another one again?


Thanks


----------



## tradergordo

Bill said:
			
		

> Since it's been a while since you last reviewed the Dutch West are there any updates? How do you like the DW and would you buy another one again?
> Thanks



Well I can say that I keep trying new ways to improve performance...  For example, for the last 3 days I have not let the fire go out or the coal bed die down (maybe part of this is that I'm burning wood that creates excellent coals) and the stove is SO MUCH easier to run this way.  For example last night I loaded up on a big bed of coals, no fussing, dampered immediately after putting on the fresh splits, and it everburned continuously, with the air control completely off, at 400 degrees.  I've never even got the everburn to work that low before.  Bedrooms upstaris stayed between 71 and 76 while overnight low went down to 14.  When you keep a big coal bed, this stove can burn cleanly 24/7 with no problem whatsoever, you can toss logs on whenever there is enough room to fit one in, and damper down immediately with no waiting (and still have the everburn super efficient burn work).  The challenge is keeping that big hot coal bed around all the time, especially overnight.

Another thing I did which I think helped a lot was "speed drying" the wood - this is NOT something I have been doing at all previously, I just tried it for the first time this week after reading about someone else on the forum doing it and my friend telling me that's how he does it too.  I should start a whole new thread on that... but basically its not a big deal, just storing my wood next to the stove for 24 hours before burning it, it seems to seriously drive out all the moisture and results in better burning (of course its also probably a fire hazard which is why I've never seen it recommended before   ). 

To answer your question would I buy the Dutchwest again: I think every stove has its quirks, and I also think every few years someone is going to make a better stove.  That said - based on all that I have read about various other stoves, I think I'd probably go for a model that is able to achive more consistent clean burning with less fiddling and coal bed management.  The price is right on the Dutchwest, its big heat is great, its firebox size is great, its ash removal and gasketed doors and side loading are great.  But lack of consistent secondary combustion is a major flaw.  One of these days I'm going to have to collect all of the operational details found scattered though this thread and turn it into a "how to run an everburn stove" document/wiki/thread of its own.


----------



## begreen

TG, have you considered or tried a stack damper as a way to keep the heat in the stove more? Seems like it might be overdrafting a bit with that high a stack temp?


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## tradergordo

BeGreen said:
			
		

> TG, have you considered or tried a stack damper as a way to keep the heat in the stove more? Seems like it might be overdrafting a bit with that high a stack temp?



Doesn't seem to be overdrafting to me, what is a normal stack temp?   When its dampered down I can pretty much get 400 with air off all the way to 800 depending on how I manage the fire/damper/air.


----------



## begreen

The video shows stack temps starting at 950 and going to higher than 1000 degrees. That's pretty hot and prolly means the interior pipe is glowing blood red. FWIW, mine runs at 300-400 normally.


----------



## tradergordo

I like to get a new fire quickly up to 1000 before dampering down.  I guess its just my way of operating the stove without having to babysit it.  This is necesary IF a decent coal bed has not yet been established.  The raging 1000 degree fire generally levels out around 800 depending on conditions, after about an hour its usually down to 700, and slowly tails off after that.  When there is a nice bed of coals it can burn efficiently at 400.  I do not see any signs of overfiring.  The one guy complaining about his dutchwest said he was getting 3 hour burn times - a pretty clear indication of an excessive draft problem.  My burn times are more like 7 hours typically on a full load, although I like to add a log or two at a time instead of big full reloads.


----------



## begreen

If the stovepipe was single wall it would be glowing. I would think that frequent high heat will accelerate oxidation and reduce life. According to Condar website for their probe thermometer that's overheating. They recommend reducing draft. Whatever, it seems like a lot of waste heat heading up the chimney. 

http://www.condar.com/meteruse.html


----------



## tradergordo

BeGreen said:
			
		

> If the stovepipe was single wall it would be glowing. I would think that frequent high heat will accelerate oxidation and reduce life. According to Condar website for their probe thermometer that's overheating. They recommend reducing draft. Whatever, it seems like a lot of waste heat heading up the chimney.
> 
> http://www.condar.com/meteruse.html



My flue IS single wall, it doesn't glow, but it does give back a lot of the heat going up that pipe.  Steel doesn't really glow until it hits 1375, I've never seen any part of my stove or flue glowing and no paint has flaked off anywhere.  I don't think my temps can damage the pipe and the markings on stove thermometers (for example overfiring lines) are not appropriate for all stoves, I've seen some that say 700 is overfiring.


----------



## begreen

Perhaps that stack thermometer is not reading right. Well at least you have a clean stack. 
http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm


----------



## BrotherBart

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Perhaps that stack thermometer is not reading right. Well at least you have a clean stack.
> http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm



I'm here to tell ya Green, that chart is right. And 3/8" plate glowing at 1183* didn't scare me as much as 24 gauge tin pipe would. This house would empty out.

Even at full load blast off on a bed of hot coals in the 3.5 cube box I haven't seen higher than 750-800 stack probe temps. And don't plan too any time soon.


----------



## tradergordo

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps that stack thermometer is not reading right. Well at least you have a clean stack.
> http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm
Click to expand...



Like I said 1375, or you might not notice any color change until 1500.  Don't know, a friend had his stove briefly up to 1300 surface temp and didn't see a color change (plate steel).

http://www.muggyweld.com/color.html


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## elkimmeg

Vermont Casting/DutchWest Stoves has thousands of Everburn units in the field with very few warranty issues. * It does sound like your stove is burning hot.*  I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets.  Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted.  You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both.  If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors. It is very unlikely that the gasketed joint assembly found on Everburn units is leaking. Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble. Another place to look would be the primary flap.  Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove.  Open and close the primary air lever.  You will feel the flap opening and closing.  When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps.  It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely. Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help.  Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.
Profile

 this is the responce from vermont castings   you post about opperations appeared above his the bold letter Vermont casting is telling you you are burning your stove too hot

PM

Quote


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## begreen

TG, I'm  just concerned about the safety and efficiency of the stove. Not trying to bug or single this install out. It's up to the individual to chose how to run the stove, but this seems above normal running conditions for the woodstove. Have you asked your dealer what normal flue temps should be for this stove? Are any other folks with the CDW running in this range? Maybe I'm all wrong. I have an email into VC asking what they recommend. 

With a 19', straight up stack, it could be on the borderline of too strong draft. The hotter the stack, the more energy is wasted. That's why it sounds like a stack damper may really help get even better performance out of the stove. At less than $10 for a single-wall damper, what's to lose by trying?

PS: Visited your website. Loved the arcade game. You did a nice job. Also perused the blog. We are very much on the same wavelength.


----------



## tradergordo

That was posted in response to the guy with the glowing red encore, the guy had an 8 inch flue, 31 feet straight up.  If VC thinks I'm overfiring my stove, I would really like to hear this from them.  They should also put operating temps in their user manual so people have an idea of what is overfiring in cases where nothing is glowing and no paint is flaking off (or maybe those ARE the only signs of overfiring?)



			
				elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Vermont Casting/DutchWest Stoves has thousands of Everburn units in the field with very few warranty issues. * It does sound like your stove is burning hot.*  I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets.  Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted.  You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both.  If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors. It is very unlikely that the gasketed joint assembly found on Everburn units is leaking. Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble. Another place to look would be the primary flap.  Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove.  Open and close the primary air lever.  You will feel the flap opening and closing.  When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps.  It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely. Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help.  Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.
> Profile
> 
> this is the responce from vermont castings   you post about opperations appeared above his the bold letter Vermont casting is telling you you are burning your stove too hot
> 
> PM
> 
> Quote


----------



## tradergordo

BeGreen said:
			
		

> TG, I'm  just concerned about the safety and efficiency of the stove. Not trying to bug or single this install out. It's up to the individual to chose how to run the stove, but this seems above normal running conditions for the woodstove. Have you asked your dealer what normal flue temps should be for this stove? Are any other folks with the CDW running in this range? Maybe I'm all wrong. I have an email into VC asking what they recommend.
> 
> With a 19', straight up stack, it could be on the borderline of too strong draft. The hotter the stack, the more energy is wasted. That's why it sounds like a stack damper may really help get even better performance out of the stove. At less than $10 for a single-wall damper, what's to lose by trying?
> 
> PS: Visited your website. Loved the arcade game. You did a nice job. Also perused the blog. We are very much on the same wavelength.



I'll do some research on the damper (and my need for one).
p.s.  The arcade machine was a great little project.


----------



## begreen

Cool. Seems like a win win situation to me. You get more heat and burn less wood. I totally agree that VC needs to get on the ball and supplement their documentation for the high draft cases. Harman has done it for the Oakwood.


----------



## tradergordo

After reading in that overfiring encore thread about how the guy's problem was an ash pan door gasket (no idea why he didn't check that first) I decided it was about time I did the dollar bill test on my own stove, especially since you guys were buggin me about overfiring  

OK - I'm man enough to admit it - when I did the dollar bill test on my gaskets last night I DID indeed find a small problem - specifically a low spot in one area on the ash pan door (latches also needed slight tightening on the front and side load doors but nothing major).  At any rate, I repaired the gasket, and expect the stove to burn a little cooler now.   This kind of makes sense in light of the fact that when I built up a huge pile of ash from 3 days of continuous operation with no cleaning the stove was able to "everburn" at 400 degrees on low air setting for the first time ever - this was because the thick layer of ash was blocking the air coming from the ash pan door.  I don't really think this will have a huge impact on how my stove runs, but I hope to achive lower temp efficient burns, and longer burn times.  

At any rate, since gasket material is pretty cheap, and once you've replaced one its pretty easy to do it again, I'll probably be replacing them every year to ensure good air tightness.  I bet those gasket kits go on clearance real soon at the big boxes...


----------



## Highbeam

tradergordo said:
			
		

> BrotherBart said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BeGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps that stack thermometer is not reading right. Well at least you have a clean stack.
> http://www.processassociates.com/process/heat/metcolor.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said 1375, or you might not notice any color change until 1500.  Don't know, a friend had his stove briefly up to 1300 surface temp and didn't see a color change (plate steel).
> 
> http://www.muggyweld.com/color.html
Click to expand...


That link shows a yellow stove at like 400 degrees


----------



## Andre B.

Highbeam said:
			
		

> That link shows a yellow stove at like 400 degrees



That chart is a little deceptive in that it mixes oxide colors with the emission colors.

http://www.engnath.com/public/harden.htm

The oxide colors will only work on steel that has been cleaned to bare metal before heating, there is no visible light coming from the metal so you need good lighting in the room to see them.  The higher temper red heat emission colors are best seen in low light conditions since the light you are looking for is coming from the metal.  This is why blacksmiths almost always work in the shadows.


----------



## cmcramer

> After reading in that overfiring encore thread about how the guy’s problem was an ash pan door gasket (no idea why he didn’t check that first)



Hey tradergordo -

I *did *check the ash pan gasket first....on the top and bottom.......at the latch end. The gasket was tight, as confirmed by the VC field rep. What I failed to do was continue the gasket test along the length of the ash pan all the way to the hinge end. While the latch end was tight....the hinge end was very loose. It just never dawned on me that the factory installed hinge....BOLTED to the stove body.....on a 8 week old stove....could be loose. But loose it was.

So, live and learn!


----------



## tradergordo

cmcramer said:
			
		

> After reading in that overfiring encore thread about how the guy’s problem was an ash pan door gasket (no idea why he didn’t check that first)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey tradergordo -
> 
> I *did *check the ash pan gasket first....on the top and bottom.......at the latch end. The gasket was tight, as confirmed by the VC field rep. What I failed to do was continue the gasket test along the length of the ash pan all the way to the hinge end. While the latch end was tight....the hinge end was very loose. It just never dawned on me that the factory installed hinge....BOLTED to the stove body.....on a 8 week old stove....could be loose. But loose it was.
> 
> So, live and learn!
Click to expand...


That is an interesting design difference between our stoves.  On the Dutchwest the hinge is part of the casting, there are no bolts or any way to adjust it.  So that problem would only be possible on a Dutchwest with some serious warping in just the right place (not likely, would probably crack before it warped anyway).

At any rate - I can see how you would miss that in your gasket test, testing the verticle parts where the hinge is (and latch on the other side) is a little awkward to say the least.


----------



## efoyt

Where can I buy door handles for my Duchwest woodstove ?  My stove came with a fall away wooden one but I would like to buy some more of them so I can screw them into the stove.  I want the wooden kind.

Also great thread, i've already learned a ton about my stove.  I'll post about how mine works after I use it this winter.


----------



## Gooserider

You should be able to get handles through any stove shop that carries VC products, but they will probably all be the "fall away" style - this is a "safety feature" that VC has, I'm not sure whether it comes from the lawyer types playing CYA, or some sort of code requirement...  

If you want  to get something that screws in, you are probably on your own - however they aren't hard to make, depending on how fancy you want to get.   What you will need is a 1/4-20 thread screw or bolt, length depends on what you want for a handle, and something to make the handle out of.  If you have a wood lathe or equivalent turning tool you can make it as fancy as you like...  If not, you may just have to deal with a wooden dowel, or possibly some of the pre-made shapes you can get at the arts and crafts type stores...  

I would reccomend using a hardwood to make the handle, as opposed to pine.  I don't think the pine would get hot enough to ignite, but you are slightly safer w/ oak or other harder to ignite wood.  I turned my handles on a lathe from an oak tree branch and just stained them with Minwax "Golden Oak"

Center-drill the handle to be with a hole that will clear your bolt, and recess the end so that the bolt head will be inside the handle - the bolt head will get hot enough when the stove is running to possibly burn you, so you want to make sure it's not exposed.  Choose a bolt length that gives you about 3/4" of exposed threads and screw it into the socket where the fall-away handle goes.

If you have one of the top-load stoves, you can do a similar deal with the griddle top - get a longer bolt, and put a nut and washer on each side of the handle hole in the top.  The inside nut (closest to the stove) has to be flush with the end of the bolt - if you don't want exposed threads run the top nut up to the end of the threads, put the inside nut on and cut off the excess threaded bit...  Put the handle on the bolt, and then carefully bend the bolt to about a 45* angle.

Another option for both types is to cut off the bolt head, only partially drill the wooden (or other material) handle bit and slide it over the end with some sort of epoxy or other adhesive (high temp silicone is good) to hold it in place.  This has the advantage of no exposed metal, and possibly lets you get fancier with the end of the handle material.

Hope this helps,

Gooserider


----------



## BurningIsLove

Nice detail, gooserider.

I pretty much did exactly as he described, w/ the latter method (dremel cut off of the screw head, no exposed metal).   Works great.    I have two home-made handles made on the lathe, one that I coated and the other I left "raw", both sanded.  The uncoated one that I use to open/close the bypass turned a little bit black on the side facing the stove, no discoloration on the outer side.  Not at all concerned though that it would catch fire.  The other coated one on the door handle did not discolor, but it also has the inner door shield to provide thermal protection so wouldnt get as warm.  

I still use the 'drop out' factory provided handle for the front loader & ash pan door to prevent the novice passerby from being tempted to open them (e.g. my niece or inebriated guests, the latter being more likely to play with the stove).  Since I also side-load primarily, I dont open the front door very often except when building a new fire.


----------



## begreen

Wow, over 21000 views on this thread! That must be some kind of record.


----------



## efoyt

Could you run the Dutchwest Everburn stove without engaging the Everburn function? Could you just turn it down and let it burn? I don't ask this with the idea that I'm not going to use the Everburn function but it might be easier for my wife to just use it like a traditional stove if I am not at home.


----------



## Hanko

sure you can, but alot of your heat is up the chimney, and you'll go thru twice as much wood. Its not that big of deal to operate it. if you show her once im sure she'll be able to figure it out. As ive said before many times there are three of them in our family, and they are super stoves. The people that have issues with them would probably have issues with any stove. If you have a good draft and good dry hard wood, they will preform with any jotul, or any other stove on the market. 

           Im Henry and i approve this Bull sheet


----------



## Pine Knot

I made my door handles out of Black Walnut, so far no issues with over heating. A suggestion, when drilling the hole through the handle, drill half way on one end of the handle, and half on the other. That helps keep the hole in the center of the handle, if you are using a hand drill. A drill press would work better. Handles on the doors gives the stove that "fully dressed" look.


----------



## efoyt

When the fire is just coals and you are letting it die, do you disengage the everburn or just leave it on???

Also I had my first real fire last night ( had three small fires early-er ) and i set off my smoke detector ( many times). I don't believe that any smoke came out of the woodstove, my draft was great. Was this maybe just the oil and other stuff burning off of the outside of the stove?? House had a bad smell and there was something in the air but i don't think it was smoke from the inside of the fire. Like i said i had a great draft and i couldn't see any smoke coming out of the woodstove. Even when the door was open. i had all the windows and doors in my house open. Maybe my smoke detectors are a little to sensitive? Any ideas?


----------



## Diabel

Rex said:
			
		

> When the fire is just coals and you are letting it die, do you disengage the everburn or just leave it on???
> Also I had my first real fire last night ( had three small fires early-er ) and i set off my smoke detector ( many times). I don't believe that any smoke came out of the woodstove, my draft was great. Was this maybe just the oil and other stuff burning off of the outside of the stove?? House had a bad smell and there was something in the air but i don't think it was smoke from the inside of the fire. Like i said i had a great draft and i couldn't see any smoke coming out of the woodstove. Even when the door was open. i had all the windows and doors in my house open. Maybe my smoke detectors are a little to sensitive? Any ideas?




I leave it on until reload.

The smell will go away after a good hot burn or two.


----------



## tradergordo

Rex said:
			
		

> When the fire is just coals and you are letting it die, do you disengage the everburn or just leave it on???
> 
> Also I had my first real fire last night ( had three small fires early-er ) and i set off my smoke detector ( many times). I don't believe that any smoke came out of the woodstove, my draft was great. Was this maybe just the oil and other stuff burning off of the outside of the stove?? House had a bad smell and there was something in the air but i don't think it was smoke from the inside of the fire. Like i said i had a great draft and i couldn't see any smoke coming out of the woodstove. Even when the door was open. i had all the windows and doors in my house open. Maybe my smoke detectors are a little to sensitive? Any ideas?



The paint is curing on your stove, it takes a few burns for that to complete, I'd open all the windows and put fans in them if you can to air the house out, as you fire it up to normal operating temps or higher and complete the cure, otherwise every time you go to a higher stovetemp its going to smell.

There is no need to disengage everburn as the fire dies -- there is really no smoke to burn at that point, but keeping it dampered can hold the heat in a little better.

Seems like quite a few new everburner owners have joined the forum over the last couple months, it will be good to get a wider set of feedback.

To the older everburn owners - have you done your annual cleaning yet?  I just did mine this weekend.  As per instruction manual, you should GENTLY vacuum out the rear chambers by sticking the vac hose down though the flue collar.  When I did this I noticed quite a few "chips" of the refractory material down there.  They were not created from the cleaning or any blunt force, that stuff is just slowly deteriorating.  Mine isn't real bad, it doesn't seem to have any holes - but my guess is that at this rate of deterioration (2 years of operation) I'll have to replace that stuff after 1 or 2 more seasons or risk exposure and damage to the cast iron.  I did take some pictures (reached down flue collar with camera and took pic straight down both back corners - I did this last year too so I could compare things and look for damage).  Will post the pics later.

I also removed the shoe - this is very easy, just pull up the grate above the ash pan, and then the shoe pulls straight forward.  But there is a fabric like gasket on the bottom of this piece that is a pain to get back on if it comes off.  The reason I took the shoe out is because there was quite a bit of debris including chips of the refractory material laying on top of the shoe inside the rear chamber and the only easy way to clean it out was by removing the shoe.

I wonder if the refractory stuff could be repaired and/or fortified by just plastering it with furnace cement or something?  Not sure.  I don't plan to do anything with it this year, but maybe I should.


----------



## Diabel

I did the same thing, used a reduced vacuum hose to get to the bottom & gently wiggle the hose to get all of the ash. I also found few cement like pieces...paper thin or maybe a bit thicker (size of a quarter).
I did not remove the "shoe" didn't think there was a need. 

Indeed, it will be interesting to hear some of the newcomers experiences with these stoves. Three short burns so far this season & no problem....bring the griddle temp to 500 engage the everburn & off she goes.


----------



## trailblaze

i'm finally getting DW set up on the hearth this thursday... i'll take some pics of the final deal and post up my first burn


----------



## CTBurner

Our VC Encore everburn arrived today, I spent 2 hours checking it over part by part, everything is shipshape. I was very impressed with the quality of stove and workmanship throughout, also it will be very easy to work on if needed. Installation on Friday, I had seller install because of all the problems some have had. 

I will post pictures next week.


----------



## Diabel

Here is my unit.


----------



## CTBurner

Very nice setup, You have the warming shelves, those are nice, They add more heat too,  well worth the cost and they look great


----------



## Diabel

Thanks.

Not sure if the shelves add heat, looks for sure....but I do use the hangers to dry wet clothes i.e. hats mittens etc (two kids).


----------



## BurningIsLove

> The paint is curing on your stove, it takes a few burns for that to complete, I'd open all the windows and put fans in them if you can to air the house out, as you fire it up to normal operating temps or higher and complete the cure, otherwise every time you go to a higher stovetemp its going to smell.



I also apply a touch up compound to my stove enamel to prevent rust when water spills on it, the kettles scrape the top, etc.  Like the original paint, it does take a little while to cure and has the same smell albeit not as long or as intense.



> Seems like quite a few new everburner owners have joined the forum over the last couple months, it will be good to get a wider set of feedback.



Indeed.  Keep the feedback & reviews coming.  Try not to get frustrated (like I did!), if it's your first downdraft (everburn) style stove, you WILL get the hang of it.



> To the older everburn owners - have you done your annual cleaning yet?  I just did mine this weekend.  As per instruction manual, you should GENTLY vacuum out the rear chambers by sticking the vac hose down though the flue collar.  When I did this I noticed quite a few "chips" of the refractory material down there.



I have not yet, but its on the agenda for this weekend.  I have never removed the shoe on mine, but I dont think I can avoid it this time.  I have fixed, horizontal flue connector so I have to physically move the stove off my hearth to get inside the flue collar (ugh), which requires a few extra sets of hands, those large DW's are darn heavy!    So I'll have to remove the shoe to clean out behind it, there will probably be a lot of debris in mine as I did not do it last year.  Want to get it done now though so if I do break it, I can order a replacement in time for prime time burning season.


----------



## tradergordo

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> I have not yet, but its on the agenda for this weekend.  I have never removed the shoe on mine, but I don't think I can avoid it this time.  I have fixed, horizontal flue connector so I have to physically move the stove off my hearth to get inside the flue collar (ugh), which requires a few extra sets of hands, those large DW's are darn heavy!    So I'll have to remove the shoe to clean out behind it, there will probably be a lot of debris in mine as I did not do it last year.  Want to get it done now though so if I do break it, I can order a replacement in time for prime time burning season.



Let us know what you find when you do the cleaning.  I found exactly what diabel described: "...cement like pieces...paper thin or maybe a bit thicker (size of a quarter)" laying in the bottom of those rear chambers AND on top of the shoe.  That gasket on the bottom of the shoe is also a bit of a pain, it has to be glued back on to stay in place when you slide the shoe back in.  Anyone know what that material is or where you can buy it?

Replacing the everburn refractory chamber stuff is going to be a big project - you basically have to disassemble the whole stove.  Also probably not a good idea to put it off for too long, because eventually I'm sure the cast iron will warp once enough of the chamber liner is gone.  This repair WOULD have been covered by the lifetime warranty if we still had warranties (to my knowledge on one has yet reported that they were refused warranty work on a dealer bought stove yet by the way).


----------



## efoyt

So what is the deal with Vermont Castings/Dutchwest products. I know they were bought out by Heratige. But are the Warranties still good?


----------



## tradergordo

According to the message from a phone number posted somewhere in this forum, products purchased from retailers like Home Depot, that were purchased before 2008, have no warranties now.  But the same message says that if you purchased a product from a dealer (which is how all VC woodstoves are sold) that you should contact your dealer for warranty claims.  This was always the policy by the way, if you had contacted CFM last year for example, they would have told you to go though your dealer for any warranty work.  So at least from the perspective of this phone message - officially nothing has changed with our warranties.  I'm still waiting to hear from anyone with firsthand experience in the matter.  One person in the forums has said that he talked to a dealer that told him they were still doing warranty work.  A different person (I believe a dealer) said that everything was being done on a "case by case" basis - no idea what that means.  Perhaps it means that if the industry picks back up and they are making lots of money again, they will be more willing to honor warranties on products purchased from a dealer before 2008.


----------



## CTBurner

Thursday Vc dealer is coming to install our encore everburn, I would have done it myself but I wanted to be able to say in the future "your company installed it" if I have a problem. I will try to get a lot of conversation going about new owners, warrantees, ECT. I will let you know what comes up.


----------



## Diabel

While he's there get him do the "dollar test"! If the bill slides through might as well get him to do the needed adjustments!


----------



## efoyt

Ok - did a full burn last night. I didn't get the burn length that I was hopeing for. About 3 hours ( still had a bed of hot coals ). I didn't fill the firebox all the way also so i know that this will have a big effect on the length of the burn. 

Ash door had some of the liner stick on the stove, i got most of it off but there is still a little there what should I use to get it off??? I know that if there is not a proper seal that I will not get the burn times I hope for but i don't think their was a problem with the seal. With almost just coals left with the air down all the way there was no flame, if i opened it all the way ( not the door the air control) i would get flame so I am thinking I have a good seal.

As far as the Everburn system went i think it was working. I engaged it at 500 degrees ( pipe thermometer ). The temp doped right down to 350 then climbed back up to 400 and stayed there until I started fiddling with the air control. I'll update my burn times after i get more of a hang of it.


----------



## BurningIsLove

> Let us know what you find when you do the cleaning.  I found exactly what diabel described: "...cement like pieces...paper thin or maybe a bit thicker (size of a quarter)" laying in the bottom of those rear chambers AND on top of the shoe.  That gasket on the bottom of the shoe is also a bit of a pain, it has to be glued back on to stay in place when you slide the shoe back in.  Anyone know what that material is or where you can buy it?



So about the same experience....I pulled the shoe forward after removing the ash pan grate and found chips about the same size & consistency.  I cannot view from the top yet to see what shape the refractory material is in.  The gasket on the bottom did come off and I'm hesitant to try and refix it on.  It was torn in several places, most likely from my pulling the shoe forward.  It was also worn through nearly completely in others.  I'm of the strong mind that replacing the gasket entirely is the best course of action.  

So now I'm in the same dilemna, where is the best place to buy the gasket?  I searched online and found one link here via google which only had the gasket for the s/m sizes, not the large.  Their search engine couldnt find the same part google did (nice, huh?), but after some guesswork manipulating the URL directly (lots of fun), I found the large size.  Runs $107 (ouch), hopeful I can find it elsewhere for a more reasonable price, that seems horrifically expensive for one gasket.  I found a CFM parts listing that I think had it for $3.30 (tough to tell the descriptor from the PDF), but it listed the entire shoe replacement at $107, which I dont need as the shoe appears in very good shape.  Will call my dealer tomorrow and see if he has it available.  Will also test the waters on the refractory material itself and find out his stance on the warranty.

Will post pics of my shoe/gasket shortly


----------



## Gooserider

For what it's worth BIL, as a local source the Chelmsford Fireplace Center over near the Stop and Shop in Chelmsford Ctr now carries VC, might be worth seeing what they have for parts / charge for them...  I know they have gasket "sets" for many of the VC stoves in stock...  In my limited dealings with them, they seemed like reasonably competent folks, with decent pricing.

Gooserider


----------



## BurningIsLove

Excellent tip, thanks!

Took some still shots looking upwards with the shoe removed prior to being vacuumed out.  The shoe appears in good shape, no apparent cracks or chips.  Its hard to get a good judgement on the refractory material.  On the easily visible sides slanting upwards from the top of the shoe, it seems fine.  But the pictures further up give me pause.  Sorry about the bad focus, the distance was just too close to get a good picture.


----------



## Diabel

BIL, these out of focus pics...which part of the refactory is it? 

Now I am worried!

It appears to me that our stoves are around 2 to 3 yrs. old & the refactory is slowly but surly falling apart I give it 2 more burning seasons & as Gordo said the stoves will likely overheat & be dangerous to use! I do not believe that VC or the new owners will be of any help. I read somewhere here that someone reproduced a "cat" box (sorry, the correct term just escaped my head)....can we recreate the refactory?


----------



## jeb123@kvvi.net

Hi, Im a new stove owner. Never had one before. A friend of mine has a company in Mass.
Fire Mart and I asked him if he could set me up with a stove that would heat our house. We
got a V/C Defiant 1619 NC. Im becoming more pleased with it the more I learn about how 
it works.I had a problem at the start not getting it to fire right. I found that I was burning
it to cool.A bad burn indicator from the hardware. I got a good one and found out it was 
reading 200 degrees less. Now when I get it burning good and to about 500 ,close the 
damper and the after burners kick in. I can hear it doing its thing.Plus the glass stays clean.
So for now Im pretty happy with the results.You guys are a great help with info.And so
hopefully its goodbye oilman


----------



## tradergordo

Can't wait to hear what your dealer says burning...  

About the gasket - I was thinking if the dealer can't get it (for a reasonable price) it might be a good idea to find some kind of fire blanket of the same thickness and just trace out and cut the gasket yourself, attaching it with silicone or gasket cement.  Maybe there is a thin gasket rope somewhere that would also work?

The other thing I was thinking - and maybe your dealer knows something - but if the reports are true about the re-designed shoe, we should consider upgrading (in which case you wouldn't have to worry about the gasket AND in theory the stove might operate better).


----------



## BurningIsLove

Exactly.  Thanks for the tip about cutting my own gasket, that would save a bundle of $$ if I could find a roll of the right material and then cut replacement gaskets as needed from a template.  Do you think the redesign comes w/ just the refractory material, just the shoe, or both?  In the various threads on this topic (assuming I havent missed one which is entirely possible!), I have only seen pics of a slightly different shoe w/ different hole sizes/orientations, but not a new refractory material.  If the bored holes were the only change, then I can certainly widen the existing ones slightly to match the new design reasonably closely.  But that would not address any problem w/ the refractory material.

Diabel, to answer your question about the pics.  Going from R-->L on the bottom row of pics w/ your browser maximized (the 3 less than focused ones), the two on the right are with the shoe removed, camera in its place, camera on its back shooting straight up vertically looking up towards the flue collar.  Im not entirely sure what some of the unfocused protrusions are, whether that used to be solid refractory material which has disintegrated or not.  I'm hesitant to stick my hand up there as I'd be doing it blindly and we all know how fragile that material is.  Wish I had a pic of what its supposed to look like.  Someone had posted a pic w/ their flue collar removed looking down, that might help out a lot for comparison (does someone know which thread that was?  I'm the universes worst 'search' user).

The most left pic on the bottom row is w/ the camera in the same place as above, but angled to see the side wall of the refractory material.  Again tough to tell from the pic, but the side wall where it slants at about a 45 degree narrowing the exit, the refractory is solid and feels in good condition if I lightly move my finger along it.   When it closes to its narrowest point and becomes vertical, that is where the degradation feels worst.  That could also just be debris sitting on top of the refractory material as well tho as opposed to disintegrated refractory.

I'll try and do some more camera work and get some more in focus pics.  Will be tough as the walls are less than 12" from the end of the lens.


----------



## BurningIsLove

According to the VC store, the gasket individually costs $5.45, so that's certainly an easy one to accept assuming I can find it in stock somewhere for that price.  VC wants $20 for shipping a $5 part....how very typical.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Got my halogen light in there, so some better shots now.

Going left to right from top row to bottom:

1: vertically up to flue collar.  back of stove on right hand side of picture
2: looking diagonally up towards back of stove.  lower fireback refractory w/ some chips missing
3: same as #2, just focused on the front side of the lower fireback refractory
4: tilting nearly vertical.  back of stove at bottom of picture.  seem between lower & upper refractory is visible
5: similar shot to #2 w/ different lighting.  mustache gasket visible on the bottom


----------



## Chrisg

Just want to add this pic of the pc. of something that I found below the air intake in back of my 2479 after removing old shoe pc and replacing with a  new one. There were several other potatoe chip like pcs.( they looked like the Munchos kind of chips) laying there also. They looked exactly like what we are viewing in the pics by burningislove inside the refractory assembly.






I removed the stove pipe from the back of the stove after and there was a hole in the top of the soft refractory. It is the black dot to the lower right of the rectangular area in the pic. Sorry it is so pixalated.






I am assuming that the inside of the soft refractory looks just like posted interior shots.
I would also be very interested in materials to rebuild this soft refractory package.
Thanks Chris


----------



## BurningIsLove

I'm concerned there's going to be an even larger hole in my upper refractory brick.  

Do people think that the flaky, thin pieces are actual pieces of the refractory material that are coming off?  Or is it soot-like material, too large to be pulled through the micron-thin holes of the material that collect, then become so heavy that they fall off onto the shoe?  Or some combination of both?

As I look at the pics and peer inside mine, I can see evidence of both.  There are areas where small thin wafers of refractory have come off, and others where there is a thicker crusty material sticking on top of smooth sections of refractory.  If those thicker chips come off, the refractory underneath appears undamaged.

Its probably a combination of both, but want others input.


----------



## Chrisg

I agree with your statements. It seemed as if there was the crispy fried type flakes which I suspect is "filtered",for lack of a better word,  particles that have simply collected on the inside of the refractory. While at the same time there were flakes with what appeared to be parts of the refractory on them and still others like in the pcs I posted that were clearly chunks of the refractory. I would also welcome more input as to what exactly these pcs are.


----------



## tradergordo

We'll I also see those chips like the one pictures above on the dollar bill - this is definitely refractory material.  My other concern was the bottom of the rear chambers - are they supposed to be covered with refractory material?  As you can see below in my pic, after vacuuming, there is nothing covering the bottom.  The following pictures show a shot straight down the rear chamber - my arm is reaching into the flue collar and holding the camera all the way back against the rear side, pointing straight down.  The first pic is before cleaning, second pic is after cleaning.


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## BurningIsLove

TG....is the rectangular opening at the bottom the secondary air intake hole at the bottom of stove?  Or is that part of the refractory shoe?  Trying to get my bearings  on depth


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## branchburner

I'm new to the forum, and don't have a VC, but the discussion of a potentially short lifespan of ceramic fiber refractory is very curious. Based on comments in this thread, in Vermonster's Lopi Leyden post from two nights ago, and my own Harman Oakwood experience, it seems like this material is not very stable. 

KeithO’s comments about the cheap quality of some ceramic fiber products, from a post of last October, is a bit unsettling: “Just so you know, most of the ceramic board materials are alumina silicate.  Silicate is basically glass.  Unless the alumina content is at least 80% or more, it loses its mechanical properties fast at any temperature over 600 deg C.” I hope that’s not the material used for the refractory in some of our stoves! Does anyone know the composition of what VC, Lopi, Harman and others actually use? Are they all exactly the same?

600 deg C is not very hot. That’s 1100 deg F, which I think is about what you need to get your secondary combustor to burn gases at a good clip. If that's also the point at which your secondary combustor starts to break down, that can't be a good thing. It certainly makes a case for not running these stoves too hot.


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## tradergordo

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> TG....is the rectangular opening at the bottom the secondary air intake hole at the bottom of stove?  Or is that part of the refractory shoe?  Trying to get my bearings  on depth



I wish there was a cut-out type diagram of the stove somewhere (parts diagram in the manual is not helpful).  I'm confused by my own pics and yours - not sure exactly what the airflow/combustion path is or what parts should go where.  I think I should bring my camera to a dealer and take the same shots on a new stove (and check out the shoe while I'm at it to see if its any different).


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## BurningIsLove

Thats a great idea.  If my dealer is still selling them and I can get somewhere w/ the parts I need, then I'll be taking a trip down there and will take my camera & screwdriver with me.  Of course, to get the same shots on a new stove as the ones I took, I'd have to pull out the refractory shoe.  Do you think a dealer would let me do that?


----------



## tradergordo

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Thats a great idea.  If my dealer is still selling them and I can get somewhere w/ the parts I need, then I'll be taking a trip down there and will take my camera & screwdriver with me.  Of course, to get the same shots on a new stove as the ones I took, I'd have to pull out the refractory shoe.  Do you think a dealer would let me do that?



Wouldn't hurt to ask - I bet they won't mind.  You can just tell them you want to compare what a new one looks like to yours so you can determine if there is any damage.  Taking the shoe out of a new one shouldn't do any harm whatsoever to that gasket so its not a big deal.  The pic like I took - though the flue collar from the top doesn't require anything special and can be done in 2 seconds.


----------



## stanleyjohn

branchburner said:
			
		

> I'm new to the forum, and don't have a VC, but the discussion of a potentially short lifespan of ceramic fiber refractory is very curious. Based on comments in this thread, in Vermonster's Lopi Leyden post from two nights ago, and my own Harman Oakwood experience, it seems like this material is not very stable.
> 
> KeithO’s comments about the cheap quality of some ceramic fiber products, from a post of last October, is a bit unsettling: “Just so you know, most of the ceramic board materials are alumina silicate.  Silicate is basically glass.  Unless the alumina content is at least 80% or more, it loses its mechanical properties fast at any temperature over 600 deg C.” I hope that’s not the material used for the refractory in some of our stoves! Does anyone know the composition of what VC, Lopi, Harman and others actually use? Are they all exactly the same?
> 
> 600 deg C is not very hot. That’s 1100 deg F, which I think is about what you need to get your secondary combustor to burn gases at a good clip. If that's also the point at which your secondary combustor starts to break down, that can't be a good thing. It certainly makes a case for not running these stoves too hot.



You make some good points!I myself isnt looking foward to replacing parts in my harman afterburner chamber every few years.I havent heard much about the ceramic fiber refractory failing in harman wood stoves but who knows!!maybe many have bad ceramic fibers but dont know about it??.


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## branchburner

Yeah, one of the big raps on cat stoves has been that you need a new $100 part every five years - is my non-cat going to need a new $300 part every five years? At least with a cat you know what you got. I think most people with non-cats that have a ceramic fiber refractory have no idea what's in their stoves. It's out of sight, out of mind, and there's little or no mention of it in brochures or manuals or maintenance guides as far as I can see. I guess I just assumed the stuff would last forever, it's ceramic, right? Wrong?


----------



## tradergordo

Well either VC thought it would last forever too, or they knew they were going bankrupt when they wrote it into their "lifetime" warranty.  The other problem besides safety and cost, is that the repair/replacement looks like it could be a major pain.  Who wants to completely disassemble their stove, deal with bolts that are probably seized, replace the gaskets between the cast parts, guess how much to torque the bolts when putting it back together because the manual doesn't tell you, etc.?  Most people probably won't know there is a problem until they notice their stove glowing orange (and they may not even notice that considering they put a big external sheet metal shroud over the entire back side where a problem would be most evident.



			
				branchburner said:
			
		

> Yeah, one of the big raps on cat stoves has been that you need a new $100 part every five years - is my non-cat going to need a new $300 part every five years? At least with a cat you know what you got. I think most people with non-cats that have a ceramic fiber refractory have no idea what's in their stoves. It's out of sight, out of mind, and there's little or no mention of it in brochures or manuals or maintenance guides as far as I can see. I guess I just assumed the stuff would last forever, it's ceramic, right? Wrong?


----------



## branchburner

I'm wondering how many people have had warranty issues with ceramic fiber components, not just with VC, but with any maker. One: if you don't know there's a problem with it, how will you make a claim? There are so many variables in woodburning that any stove's minor performance problems could be easily get blamed on the chimney, the wood, the weather, etc. Two: isn't the whole overfiring escape clause in warranties a potential catch-22? I can envision trying to get a replacement part under warranty and being told I've overfired the stove. Really? How do you know? Because - you need to replace a part that can only fail if you overfired the stove! Hah!
God, it sucks being a pessimist... but you gotta be good at something.


----------



## BurningIsLove

So I commented on this in the warranty thread, but I suppose it more appropriately belongs in this one......

The (good) dealer I spoke to earlier this week recommended not replacing the shoe (floor) gasket and just sliding the shoe back in and operating as normal based on his conversations w/ a VC expert (he also mentioned someone on this forum, he didnt say whom).  I cleaned up the shoe, lightly sanding off the remains of the old gasket and slid it back in.  There is a larger gap along the top of the shoe than I recall that I can see having two effects:

First is a positive effect, increasing draft thru the secondary and likely helping w/ the stalling out issues we've all encountered, especially those of us w/ horizontal flue connectors.  Pretty much would be a similar effect to boring slightly larger holes in the shoe like in the new design.

The downside is potential refractory material damage.  The existing bore holes would suck any flames through the protected shoe first, likely preventing flame from directly making contact w/ the refractory material above it.  If that gap is now there, do users think that its large enough to draw flames through it?  Directly behind & above that gap is the 45 degree sloping section of the lower refractory.  

What do people think?  Will post pics of the gap when I get a chance.  It's not huge or anything, maybe 1/8".


----------



## Gooserider

What I'd probably be tempted to do is get some generic rope gasket, in a thin size, and stuff it into the gap.  Maybe put a bit of refractory cement on it as well.

Gooserider


----------



## webbie

I think I should close this thread - 12 pages!
We can start some new ones, but people are less likely to read these older long ones.


----------



## BurningIsLove

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Can't wait to hear what your dealer says burning...
> 
> About the gasket - I was thinking if the dealer can't get it (for a reasonable price) it might be a good idea to find some kind of fire blanket of the same thickness and just trace out and cut the gasket yourself, attaching it with silicone or gasket cement.  Maybe there is a thin gasket rope somewhere that would also work?
> 
> The other thing I was thinking - and maybe your dealer knows something - but if the reports are true about the re-designed shoe, we should consider upgrading (in which case you wouldn't have to worry about the gasket AND in theory the stove might operate better).



So an update.... Sunday night was cool enough to warrant a larger fire (OK, I was showing off for the guests over to watch the Patriots game).  The stove was getting rather warm (uber seasoned splits), reading about 500 on the magnetic & 1150 for flu gas.  I raked the coals to the back by the shoe and decided to give combustion chamber a go.  Normally I wouldnt have attempted as the outdoor temp was 49, too warm to draft well enough.  But to my surprise & enjoyment, the familiar rumble & gas ignitions manifested themselves and were sustainable.

Not sure which part to credit the success to, as numerous things changed.   The first was the gap above the shoe without the gasket, increasing the amount of air flow/draft into the fountain.  Next was a really good vacuuming out of the shoe and areas leading up the back of the stove for which there was a fair amount of debris.  The wood was probably more dry than normal as it had been sitting in my garage rack since last burning season.


----------



## tradergordo

That's interesting - I guess maybe I'll experiment with not replacing the gasket.  The concern being excessive air later in the season when its very cold.
Another idea for making your own gasket for people that wanted to replace it - just use tin foil, rolled or layered to the right size (using same pattern as original).

By the way, you never mentioned what your dealer told you regarding warranties.


----------



## BurningIsLove

I think I'm going to have to use the tin foil in the secondary air intake method again to prevent the runaway burns if it comes down to it.  Even with the gasket and no gap, it did happen often enough to be of concern.  

As for warranty, my original dealer that I purchased the stove from pretty much had zero interest in speaking to me at all, either about warranties or even replacement parts.  They were totally geared towards new sales, not maintaining relationships with existing customers.   They have promised numerous times to call me back about the warranty & replacement parts, but never have.  The impression that I got from the time I did spend talking to them is that VC will not honor the warranty and will respond to every claim as "you must have overfired it" without even looking at evidence.  But the more I think of it, that is more likely the dealer not wanting to invest the time vs. VC/Monessan's official position.

The new dealer I spoke to (very pleasant), read back to me a description from a VC engineer about the scaling as 'normal' and therefore not requiring a replacement.  The VC guy said as long as there are no long, contiguous cracks or large blowout holes, and if the refractory is holding together on its own w/o the owner applying cement or other adhesives, then it's probably fine.  Upon close inspection, I did see one hairline crack in the upper refractory viewed from the firebox (not up the fountain).  It's barely even noticeable w/o a powerful flashlight and almost certainly does not go all the way through.  But I will ask about it as Im heading up there to meet them in person just to build a relationship, they seem really great and interested in doing business.


----------



## tradergordo

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> The new dealer I spoke to (very pleasant), read back to me a description from a VC engineer about the scaling as 'normal' and therefore not requiring a replacement.  The VC guy said as long as there are no long, contiguous cracks or large blowout holes, and if the refractory is holding together on its own w/o the owner applying cement or other adhesives, then it's probably fine.  Upon close inspection, I did see one hairline crack in the upper refractory viewed from the firebox (not up the fountain).  It's barely even noticeable w/o a powerful flashlight and almost certainly does not go all the way through.  But I will ask about it as Im heading up there to meet them in person just to build a relationship, they seem really great and interested in doing business.



That's good to know.  I wonder exactly what the dealer was reading?  Do they have technical service bulletins like car dealerships do for cars?  The problem with the deteriorating refractory is that people can't really tell the extent of the damage unless they completely take their stove apart (which is not mentioned in the owners manual).  One can do a minor assessment by removing the shoe (anyone can handle that much) and trying to take pictures up little crevices and down though the flue collar etc.  But I don't think you can really even see enough from such photos - especially with the refractory above the shoe, to tell if it needs replacing.

And I guess we still have no official word on the warranty situation.  I am going to contact my dealer to ask about this.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Right....it sounds like I'm probably boned though on the warranty.....if the dealer I purchased the stove from wont take the time, I dont think Im going to get VC/Monessan to honor anything directly.  And even though I like the new dealer, he's likely not going to warranty a stove that wasnt purchased at his store.


----------



## BJ64

About the 'tater chips.

BIL stated they were from the refractory.  I am wondering if the chips could be some mineral from the ash that was vaporized then condensed back there to flake off in chips.

We opened up a large water tube type boiler at work for refractory repair.  I pointed out some chip like materiel scattered about downwind of the burn chamber that had peeled from the refractory.  The explanation was that in our location, the natural gas has some small amount of mineral in it.  Since the unit had run 24/7 burning about 700 CFM for two years, the mineral had collected and flaked off over time.  I asked why it stuck to the refractory and not the iron piping and the answer was electrical charge.  At those temps the mineral has the same electrical charge as the piping does, causing the mineral to pick other areas to stick to while it is repelled from the piping.  

We know that wood ash is various mineral.  Do you think the chips you observed could be something similar to what I observed in the boiler?

On a side note.  The chips were not the reason the refractory was being repaired.


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## RedRanger

This thread should be turned to ashes, just like VC`s warranty`s..  Talk about beating a dead horse to death/ :-/


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## BurningIsLove

Its certainly possible.... a few pages back in this thread I had suggested the same possibility, that it was collected soot/material that was too large to be sucked through the refractory, collected, and then became large enough to flake & fall off (yes, this thread is a monster, but its a nice reference to only have to look in one thread vs. piecing together dozens of them)

It would be interesting to find a 24x7 owner of this stove (or similar design) willing to take their stove apart and examine this firsthand.


----------



## Diabel

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Its certainly possible.... a few pages back in this thread I had suggested the same possibility, that it was collected soot/material that was too large to be sucked through the refractory, collected, and then became large enough to flake & fall off (yes, this thread is a monster, but its a nice reference to only have to look in one thread vs. piecing together dozens of them)
> 
> It would be interesting to find a 24x7 owner of this stove (or similar design) willing to take their stove apart and examine this firsthand.



She's way too hot right now :lol:


----------



## BJ64

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> (yes, this thread is a monster, but its a nice reference to only have to look in one thread vs. piecing together dozens of them)
> 
> .



I agree.  There is a lot of info good for down draft stove owners in this one thread.


----------



## tradergordo

BJ64 said:
			
		

> About the 'tater chips.
> 
> BIL stated they were from the refractory.  I am wondering if the chips could be some mineral from the ash that was vaporized then condensed back there to flake off in chips.



I don't know, it was just reported here that a VC engineer acknowledged the phenomenon and called it "scaling" (although maybe that doesn't actually clarify anything).  But wouldn't you see something similar in ANY other stove?  These chips are like cement.  Sure seems like refractory material to me, but who knows...

My dealer got back to me, he said "My understanding is that the original warranty is not being honored by the manufacturer on units purchased prior to Jan 1, 2008. If you have a warranty claim on the refractory components you mentioned, we will offer replacement parts to you at reduced cost. We would ask that you return the defective parts for inspection. There have been very few problems with that stove that I am aware of."


----------



## BurningIsLove

Are they requiring you to send in the parts FIRST for examination, then determining if there is 

A) a defect for which they'd help ya out on cost of replacing
OR
B) claiming that you overfired and now you're stuck with materials that probably would have been broken from removal, shipping, or inspection

Or are they willing to take your claim at face value, ship you new refractories for which they share part of the cost, and asking that you send in the old refractories? 

Devil in the details!  My dealer said I had to submit detailed photographs first to be considered, but that's as far as we ever got in the process before they went dark on me.


----------



## tradergordo

I'm not sure how it works - but I think the dealers make a profit on replacement parts, so I assume what he meant is that perhaps they would sell the parts to me at their cost instead of the usual marked up price.  But really I don't know.  I also assume they want to see the broken part for the benefit of helping their other customers (so they know what to look for) and possiby to report the problem to Vermont Castings which I think is the normal procedure.


----------



## CTBurner

SE CT
Total Posts:  26
Joined  2008-08-03 First I want to thank evertone here, I love this forum. 

I have been burning our VC Encore everburn for 2 weeks now, I am glad I took BEGREEN’S advise and moved down to the encore vs the defiant.  Anyway We had 5/6 nights here where it got down to 40 degrees and so I tryed to acheive everburn. First night I know I had an insufeicent coal bed so I got the rumble for 5 mins, After watching Gordo’s video . the next night I had a good 2-3 inch coal bed, got the temp up on stovetop tp 650 and engaged everburn. had a nice 5 hour burn. since then I have been getting 6 hour burns, with air shut down. A couple of times I stalled but I asked myself why and it was either not enough coal bed or not enough temp. I am very happy with this VC. I would like to extend my burns to 7 hours and believe I can bt packing in more wood. I am burning well seasoned oak. I was real scared after I bought the stove in july and then found the forum only to read all the bad press. Maybe I just got lucky so far. I am very thankful for this forum, I have learned much and Gordo’s video’s are great, I believe he has a Dutchwest but is similar to Encore/defiant, same principle. I have learned you need coal bed,the right temp, good seasoned hardwood and its easy.


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## ICY99

Here is a link to a diagram of everburn from the Dutchwest Japan website:

http://www.dutchwest.co.jp/stove/shokubai_zu3.html


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## bsa0021

Can someone give me their opinion of my stove (Dutchwest 2478). I took the following pictures from the top after removing the flue collar. I don't think the hole in the middle should be there. My question is what would happen if I contiue to burn with the refractory this way? Is this safe? I am waiting on the dealer to take a look at my stove. I don't run my stove as hot as the video posted on this site but I have burned 24/7 the past two years and about 50% of the time the first year. I sure didn't start burning wood to save money only to spend $400 every 2 years in replacement parts. I would guess at the 5/6 year mark I will have to replace the internal cement pieces as they are showing minor crumbling (not from physical abuse). IMO this stove was very poorly designed.
The first pic is straight down from the top (flue collar removed).
2nd pic is from the top but to the left of center. There are some cracks in this area as well.


----------



## Diabel

bsa, 

These are not pretty pictures :bug: 

The picture on the right hand side...the rounded edges are likely caused by a vacuum hose. When my stove was ready for its initial cleaning I had the job done by a professional    he simply shoved the hose through the damper & slightly rounded these edges too. As for the pic on the left had side oh my Is it possible that the hole was caused by (again) a chimney sweep....shoving the brush too deep?


----------



## tradergordo

Yea, sorry BSA - would be nice to know what caused the damage, but regardless, your stove is in very bad shape.  Personally I would want to call VC tech support to see if its still OK to use the stove in that condition, no one here (and probably not your dealer either) can tell you if its safe.  Perhaps the only danger would be warping the cast iron that the now missing refrectory material is supposed to be protecting.  However if you warp the cast, things could get even worse and more expensive to repair later.


----------



## bsa0021

I had a professional sweep clean the stove after the first year. I watched them clean it and I know they didn't remove the flue collar and they couldn't have run the hose down the sides (they didn't reach in that far. When I cleaned it I only brushed down to the 45 which is 3 ft. above the stove. I removed the flue this year to see how bad it is. I had a large pile of refractory chips and creosote covering the hole. VC should have given some type of directions (in the manual) for cleaning procedure if this was fragile and could potentially be damaged by a professional or owner. My feeling is that they designed a product that requires high cost replacement parts in an unreasonable time frame. Shame on them for their design, shame on me for buying it.


----------



## tradergordo

While I agree that the design leaves lots to be desired, and the fragile materials are inexcusable - in their defense, at least the Dutchwest manual does describe how to clean it and tells you to be careful not to hit the refractory material.  They DON'T tell you anything about the accumulation of "chips" or anything about having to remove the shoe which will also have these cement like chips on top of it.  Failure to clear away this debris every year would definitely impact the stove's performance.  They also don't give you any ideas on how to determine when you need to replace the refractory material (yea, the stuff that was supposedly covered by a lifetime warranty that no longer exists!)




			
				bsa0021 said:
			
		

> I had a professional sweep clean the stove after the first year. I watched them clean it and I know they didn't remove the flue collar and they couldn't have run the hose down the sides (they didn't reach in that far. When I cleaned it I only brushed down to the 45 which is 3 ft. above the stove. I removed the flue this year to see how bad it is. I had a large pile of refractory chips and creosote covering the hole. VC should have given some type of directions (in the manual) for cleaning procedure if this was fragile and could potentially be damaged by a professional or owner. My feeling is that they designed a product that requires high cost replacement parts in an unreasonable time frame. Shame on them for their design, shame on me for buying it.


----------



## bsa0021

Not in my manual dated 7/04. I have very generic cleaning directions. Taken from manual: "Run brush up and down the liner so that any deposits fall to the bottom of the chimney where they can be removed through the clean out door". No mention of the refractory in the cleaning section. tradergordo: What date is the manual that you are reading? If they changed the manual and did not notify the previous owners, I would think the liability is with VC.


----------



## bsa0021

Of course, none of this really matters (unless your in the market for a new stove) since I know about the warranty woes with this company.
The key here is this information hopefully will prevent someone from making the same mistake that I did (& others) of buying from VC.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Despite the warranty woes, less than perfect design, steep learning curve, etc., I still wouldnt say I regret my decision several years ago to buy my stove.  It throws more heat than my house needs, has exceptionally long burn times, looks darn nice, etc.   Even catalytic owners of less impugned stoves have to replace their refractories from time to time.  People w/ burn tubes have to replace them quite frequently from what I've read....the list goes on.

As for the manuals....nothing in life is free.  When I buy a new car, I dont expect the owners manual that comes w/ the vehicle to have all the nuances of maintenance required.  One has to expect to buy a Chiltons book, check forums, etc. to get the whole picture.  The same is true for an investment like a wood stove.  Sure, it would be nice to have it all in one place, but the level of effort to find & download the maintenance manual isnt all that difficult.


----------



## bsa0021

Sorry, I have to disagree. First concerning manuals, whom is going to know better how to service the product than the engineer/manufacturer? Trial and error by the owner is not how to encourage repeat customers If you read owners manuals for cars they are very careful to note what practices are unaceptable. A good example the RX8 does not allow Sythetic oil while many other high performance cars recommend it. Could you imagine if Mazda never mentioned this in their manual? 
Second, I have no issue with the manner which my stove heats the house. I have no operational issues only durability/parts cost and poor information on how to clean my stove. If I can use the car analogy again, if I had to spend 1/3 the cost of my car to repair it after three years I would never buy from that manufacturer again. Maybe you don't mind replacing your car's engine after 45K miles but I don't. My stove was $1200 and the everburn is $400. Now if I had proper cleaning techniques in the manual and the everburn cost $100 every 5 years, yes this would be acceptable.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Apologies, I should have been more clear.  I was referring to the DW-published manuals on how to service the stove which I thought were very well detailed (links posted on this site in countless threads).  Yes, would sure be nice if they included the service manuals with the stove so an owner didnt have to search for them separately.  But the ones the manufacturers do publish I thought were a great reference.

As for repair, for me the jury is still out on what the long term cost will be for maintenance.  Knowing that refractory material is fragile and needs to be cleaned w/ care is one of those things that ANY modern EPA stove owner should know before attempting a self servicing.  To use the car analogy, it's like not cleaning mud off the gelcoat w/ steel wool.  You're absolutely right that the default shipped manuals should be more thorough, but again, I found that most stove manufacturer's manuals leave a whole lot to be desired.  They just havent caught up w/ what we've come to expect from something like a car manual.  The manuals are an owners manual w/o the fine details required for a servicing manual.


----------



## bsa0021

I am not sure what the difference is between the owners manual and the service manual. My manual contains info on putting the stove together, installing and cleaning but the cleaning was not detailed and if "Diabel" is correct after reviewing my pictures, the "professional" sweep should have known my stoves' cleaning procedure. Also, if cleaning was more involved, they should have stated that the service manual should be consulted or dealer should clean the stove etc. just as other manufacturers manuals.
I still believe that if a company is truely concerned about their name/customers, they will take reasonable precaution to ensure that the product they represent satisfies the customer. When you drop the ball in design and properly informing the customer and then increase your prices two/three times on parts, it begins to look like they designed an inferior product to make income off of the failed parts.
Sorry if I seem difficult, but greed and lack of integrity is creating more problems than any of us can handle.


----------



## branchburner

bsa0021 said:
			
		

> If I can use the car analogy again, if I had to spend 1/3 the cost of my car to repair it after three years I would


... you would be driving a VW! Great performance, when they perform... but I switched to Toyota decades ago. I'd rather drive a VW, but I'd rather own a Toyota.

So if VC is the VW of stoves, who's the Toyota?


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## bsa0021

No VC is the YUGO of stoves.  Or you could say... on a summer night I can hear my everburn crumbling.  See I still have a sense of humor.  My brother-in-laws 2 passats have been great.


----------



## branchburner

bsa0021 said:
			
		

> No VC is the YUGO of stoves.  Or you could say... on a summer night I can hear my everburn crumbling.  See I still have a sense of humor.  My brother-in-laws 2 passats have been great.



I don't think it's just VC's everburn that's crumbling, but it sure doesn't look like they'll be the ones to perfect downdraft technology!
One friend's Passat blew an engine in its first year, another friend's new Camry just died (WHAT ?!?) - but that's all anecdotal. Just take a look at all the little dark circles in Consumer Reports - that's a lotta black eyes!


----------



## bsa0021

Hey, maybe we could get the Consumers Union to test and rate wood stoves. It would be interesting to see what their testing would reveal. I think the red/black circles are informational input from subscribers cars. This would work on stoves as well.


----------



## tradergordo

Just to clarify, the owner's manual is linked to in the very first post in this thread.  The manual has gone though several revisions since I bought mine 2 years ago.  However when I used software to compare the differences, they were all very minor (for example they changed all references to CFM to "MHSC" and they updated the parts diagram to show the new refractory cover part #48).  

Either way I don't know of any manufacturers in any industry that send new manuals out to existing customers when they are updated.  However in this modern day, I would think that if a customer registers online, it would be a trivial matter for a company to send out additional information, updates, etc. to customers that want it.  This would cost them very little and go a long way to build customer loyalty.  I don't understand why so few companies "get it".  But I digress.

Anyway, follow the link to the manual, and look at page 25 (which has the cleaning description) and page 26 which has a picture of it.  But don't expect a lot, this is the description: 
_"Inspect for and remove ash build-up behind the combustion
package. This should be done in conjunction
with annual cleaning of the chimney connector since
this inspection is most conveniently done through the
flue collar opening. Inspect the passages to either
side of the combustion package (a mirror will be
helpful) and vacuum away ash using a flexible vacuum
hose inserted into each passage. Care should be
taken not to damage the white fibrous material in this
rear chamber. (Fig. 34)"_

I can understand how even a professional sweep might not realize how delicate this stuff is.  And I doubt they go read an owners manual before cleaning every new stove (although they should).


----------



## Diabel

Hi Trader, 

This is off topic (sorry). Would you be able to post a link to your videos from last season. I did search them here & found them but the link doesn't seem to work for me. These are the everburn process vid.

I remember watching them last year (great btw) & I do not recall seeing the "lazy flame stage" I suppose I could call it that. 

The reason being:

I just replaced few of the gaskets on my stove as well as I played around with the ash pan hinge i.e. tried to re align it a bit. Since in the upper hinge corner I noticed some black stuff by the gasket (possible leak). Well, now I think I might have made it worse. I had a nice burn going last night (regular process)...the burn got to the stage of lazy dancing flames...before coaling, but the flames were (i think) too lively. 

They're calling for a cool night again here, I will try to video this for comments...see how it turns out.

Thanks


----------



## tradergordo

Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 1

Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 2

Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 3

Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 4

Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 5


----------



## dtabor

Tradergordo, thats the one part of the process thats making me put it off is having to remove that pipe and get in there with the vaccuum. 1. Im dreading trying to get that part of the stovepipe back lined up and 2. dont want to damage anything inside. I have a shop vac and the hose isnt that heavy/bulky so Im thinking that gently feeding that down on either side I should be ok.......

Are all stoves this much of a PITA to clean out where you have to tear them apart???? Next stove wont be like this I can assure you.


----------



## tradergordo

Some people do absolutely no cleaning, not even sweeping their chimney, although I don't think that's a very good idea.  Yea its a pain to take the flue off and put it back together, but its a once a year activity for most people, and it shouldn't really matter what stove you have.

I don't really understand your plan to clean without taking the flue off. I didn't see an easy way to get to those rear chambers by removing only the shoe.  The narrow passage above the shoe is too small to get a vac hose through.



			
				dtabor said:
			
		

> Tradergordo, thats the one part of the process thats making me put it off is having to remove that pipe and get in there with the vaccuum. 1. Im dreading trying to get that part of the stovepipe back lined up and 2. dont want to damage anything inside. I have a shop vac and the hose isnt that heavy/bulky so Im thinking that gently feeding that down on either side I should be ok.......
> 
> Are all stoves this much of a PITA to clean out where you have to tear them apart???? Next stove wont be like this I can assure you.


----------



## dtabor

I fully intend to take it apart. What my "fear" is, is that I get that 3' or so piece of pipe off so that I can reach in and get to the nuts that hold the flue collar assembly on and I wont be able to get that short piece of pipe back on and lined up with the existing screw holes that the dealer put in to assemble it. Things that should be simple are usually a mess! This being the first time since it was installed that it has been taken apart.

The 30' straight shot from the roof is not a problem, its the disassembly/reassembly of the stove that bothers me.


----------



## tradergordo

I take a piece of chalk and mark the flue joint pieces with a vertical line so I know exactly where I need to muscle them to get the screw holes to line back up when I put it back together.


----------



## bsa0021

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, the owner's manual is linked to in the very first post in this thread.  The manual has gone though several revisions since I bought mine 2 years ago.  However when I used software to compare the differences, they were all very minor (for example they changed all references to CFM to "MHSC" and they updated the parts diagram to show the new refractory cover part #48).
> 
> Either way I don't know of any manufacturers in any industry that send new manuals out to existing customers when they are updated.  However in this modern day, I would think that if a customer registers online, it would be a trivial matter for a company to send out additional information, updates, etc. to customers that want it.  This would cost them very little and go a long way to build customer loyalty.  I don't understand why so few companies "get it".  But I digress.
> 
> Anyway, follow the link to the manual, and look at page 25 (which has the cleaning description) and page 26 which has a picture of it.  But don't expect a lot, this is the description:
> _"Inspect for and remove ash build-up behind the combustion
> package. This should be done in conjunction
> with annual cleaning of the chimney connector since
> this inspection is most conveniently done through the
> flue collar opening. Inspect the passages to either
> side of the combustion package (a mirror will be
> helpful) and vacuum away ash using a flexible vacuum
> hose inserted into each passage. Care should be
> taken not to damage the white fibrous material in this
> rear chamber. (Fig. 34)"_
> 
> I can understand how even a professional sweep might not realize how delicate this stuff is.  And I doubt they go read an owners manual before cleaning every new stove (although they should).



Tradergordo: Great content on your link. But the two manuals you compared is not the same maunal I have. This information IS NOT included in my manual dated 7/04. No mention of the fragile material and no picture (fig. 34). Had this information been included  I would have warned the sweep or cleaned it myself after investigating the design. With no warning, I can only believe that  there are no special precautions to be taken. Once again proving VC was not too concerned about their customers. I'm very anal about reading manuals and directions and take very good care of everything I own and this only frustrates me even more. If they are going to charge me $400 to replace this fragile product they *$% well better find a way to notifiy me or replace it at their cost.


----------



## Brian VT

I'm running my 1st real burn and, after over-correcting for a while like a kid learning to drive, I think it's running as designed.
The thermometer on the griddle has been holding steady @ 470, no flames except a bit back in the refractory, and a slight roar from the back.
It seems like I had to run @ 600-700 for a while to get it into the groove but maybe I'll learn to get around that.

Once in a while I'll get a rolling burst of flame with a "woof". Does my Resolute have the pivot plate refered to in the quote below ?
I thought that might explain the "backdraft" ball possibly being ignited by the plate opening and supplying just enough air to touch it off.
I took the refractory out and repaired it before I installed the stove and don't remember seeing anything like that, though.



			
				elkimmeg said:
			
		

> Basically, the everburn device is a pivot plate, which is mounted in the special fibrous secondary combustion chamber stove's air intake plenum so that it covers and uncovers the hole when it pivots. A  thermatic coil is attached to an actuator arm that pivots the plate so that when the firebox begins to cool below a certain point, the coil contracts, and the entire assembly hinges open to uncover the intake hole and provide extra air to the fire. As the burn rate increases from the inflow of oxygen, the firebox heats back up and the coil expands, lowering the base plate back down to seal the hole in the air intake plenum, without changing the original slide draft setting.



I'm gonna top this puppy off and see what I have in the morning. I'm a newbie to all this but, thanks to you guys, I think I might be able to handle it.
Now I've gotta get some tools and motivation and get to making some wood for next year so I don't have to buy it.

Edit: I can't top it off ! The wood I got is close to 18" and I prolly should have 16". I can only drop 3 splits in.
I guess I'll be cutting a bunch in half to run north/south on top of the 18"ers. lol


----------



## Diabel

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 1
> 
> Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 2
> 
> Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 3
> 
> Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 4
> 
> Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Stove Demo 5



Thanks for the links.


----------



## BurningIsLove

I got a darn good feeling about this years burning season.  So far removing the refractory shoe, removing the remains of the shoe gasket, cleaning out the fly ash, etc....I'm batting 1.000 for successfully sustained secondary combustion.  On top of that, in each case the outdoor temps have been higher than what I could normally expect for minimum drafting requirements that I had previously experienced (keep in mind, I have a horizontal exit, dual 90-degree turns w/ thick masonry, so my drafting sucks)

Even mixed in one less seasoned split for testing.  No hissing or anything that bad, but it was split only 6 months ago and it's oak, which most would agree is not prime fuel this 'young'.  Emissions are clean, can't see any particulates, only heat distortion against the clear night sky.  

Admittedly, it did take a few attempts of shuffling coaled splits around, raking the coals into position, etc. to get it (secondary) combusting properly.  So this stove (and probably all non-cats using a similar downdraft design) are probably always gonna seem to be high maintenance to those who are accustomed to catalytics which are easy by comparison (at least in my experience).

Darn how I missed that contiguous, low rumble!


----------



## Brian VT

No flame ?
I'm a total newbie on my 2nd overnight. My stove seems to stabilize at 450-500 with the nice rumble.
My concern is that the only flame is in the tunnel of coals leading to the secondary and beyond. It seems to work really well like this as, 
in the morning, the logs were still whole but fell to nice coals when touched and the stovetop was at 250 and the fire was easily rekindled. 
Seems like great efficiency to me ?
The VC manual states:

"Run your stove with enough primary air so that you always see lively, dancing flames in the firebox; a lazy, smoky fire is
inefficient and can contribute to creosote buildup in the chimney."

If I run my stove with flames for too long  the temps. climb enough to scare me and I feel like I'm loosing b.t.u.s up the chimney. At the 450-500 no-flame level
it doesn't seem "smokey" but I don't want to risk creosote buildup.
Your thoughts ?
Temps. are from a magnetic on the stovetop griddle, btw.


----------



## stanleyjohn

As long as the stove is hot and the secondary is running you dont need to see lots of flames from the wood and you will see a longer burn.Here is a pic of my secondary in action (note the flame in the back!thats inside the afterburn chamber).Pic quality isnt so great though!working on that!


----------



## Brian VT

Yup. That's how I've been running mine. 
Between watching the Canadian video and reading my manual I started thinking I was supposed to be running a "pretty" fire.
Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I'll know for sure when I clean my chimney.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Brian VT said:
			
		

> Yup. That's how I've been running mine.
> Between watching the Canadian video and reading my manual I started thinking I was supposed to be running a "pretty" fire.
> Thanks for the confirmation. I guess I'll know for sure when I clean my chimney.



Keep running it that way, you're golden.  I consider any overnite burn like what you described as optimal.  Glad to hear you're off to such a good start.

Under certain cirumstances, most often shortly after I've closed the bypass, I will see some lively flames blasting off the splits as gases are trapped in the upper firebox and ignite.  This normally lasts several minutes or even longer sometimes.  The explosions of gases are rhythmic and quite "pretty"  After a while as the splits really get going, you just see the red glow from the splits w/o visible flame.  As long as you hear that rumble, you're have a good secondary combustion.  Check your stack emissions, they should be nice & clean.


----------



## Brian VT

Yah, I get those "woofs" at a certain primary setting sometimes. It is cool to watch. The manual suggests that it's not getting enough air and to turn up the primary.
I also noticed that turning the primary down just a bit will also stop the woofs. My daughter was asking me to make it do it again. She likes to watch it too. lol
Better than TV, I suppose.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Best HD channel in the house.....


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

Thank all of you for an amazing, detailed, instructive thread. Gordo, your videos were great, interesting and very very much filled in the blanks that needed to be filled so I could get the stove to work. I'm on my first fire in the stove and got the rumble. Took a couple starting tries and applying this threads tips/instructions, but I have clean/no smoke and a low rumble. If you get into the State College region, I owe you a beer/dinner. There is absolutely NO way without this forum I would have even known what I was shooting for, much less known when I achieved it. The thread did give me a bit of a to do list (one more piece of 3' pipe on the exterior to get closer to 16' - missed that part in the manual) and to find the Raytec IR thermometer that's somewhere around here so I can get some surface temps & maybe install a stack temp probe.

Thanks!
Chris

P.S. There was an earlier post suggesting that this thread is too long. Not so, I'd rather have all the info in one spot. I read every post and may do so again to make sure I process all the tips/techniques.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> Thank all of you for an amazing, detailed, instructive thread. Gordo, your videos were great, interesting and very very much filled in the blanks that needed to be filled so I could get the stove to work. I'm on my first fire in the stove and got the rumble. Took a couple starting tries and applying this threads tips/instructions, but I have clean/no smoke and a low rumble. If you get into the State College region, I owe you a beer/dinner. There is absolutely NO way without this forum I would have even known what I was shooting for, much less known when I achieved it. The thread did give me a bit of a to do list (one more piece of 3' pipe on the exterior to get closer to 16' - missed that part in the manual) and to find the Raytec IR thermometer that's somewhere around here so I can get some surface temps & maybe install a stack temp probe.
> 
> Thanks!
> Chris
> 
> P.S. There was an earlier post suggesting that this thread is too long. Not so, I'd rather have all the info in one spot. I read every post and may do so again to make sure I process all the tips/techniques.



Chris
 Glad to hear yer off to such a good start.  Ya sure picked a cold week to fire it up for the first time, really helps w/ drafting and makes the operation easier.  

I like to catalog how other owners have their stoves set up just for comparison.  Can you share w/ us the details of your setup, maybe even include a picture if its convenient?  I'd be most interested in knowing the following:

size of stove (S/M/L)
horizontal or vertical flu collar exit
type of stack (masonry, class A, interior/exterior, etc.)
height of stack
external air kit
type of fuel (species, length of seasoning time, size, how you orient it in the firebox)
refractory shoe configuration (take a picture of the back of the stove)

If you have a stack that easily lends itself to a probe thermometer, I'd highly recommend it as it's a great way to measure the real time state of the conditions in the firebox & secondary combustion chamber.  I find it a nice tuning technique to alert me more quickly when I can choke down primary air, when a 'runaway' occurs, and also just cuz I love watching one more instrument.  

Enjoy your stove and welcome!


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

> I like to catalog how other owners have their stoves set up just for comparison.  Can you share w/ us the details of your setup, maybe even include a picture if its convenient?  I'd be most interested in knowing the following:
> 
> size of stove (S/M/L)
> horizontal or vertical flu collar exit
> type of stack (masonry, class A, interior/exterior, etc.)
> height of stack
> external air kit
> type of fuel (species, length of seasoning time, size, how you orient it in the firebox)
> refractory shoe configuration (take a picture of the back of the stove)
> 
> If you have a stack that easily lends itself to a probe thermometer, I'd highly recommend it as it's a great way to measure the real time state of the conditions in the firebox & secondary combustion chamber.  I find it a nice tuning technique to alert me more quickly when I can choke down primary air, when a 'runaway' occurs, and also just cuz I love watching one more instrument.
> 
> Enjoy your stove and welcome!



Thanks for the warm welcome Burning. I do have some of that info on hand and will snap some photos and get them up here in the near future.

It is a Large.

Vertical exit.

Interior/Exterior Duratech, all double wall, mainly because there is very little interior pipe and based on nearby combustibles I felt more comfortable with double for the 2' feet of double wall interior I had to work with. It's heating a single story space with a 7' 
ceiling over the stove (higher almost everywhere else), I had only planned 12' of vert chimney, but I guess I may have to stick another 3' section on top to get closer to the 16' minimum to get good draft in most conditions. I noticed the old manuals list 14' as minimum, so I'm guessing there is some play in those numbers.

My first everburn success was short lived, everburn died out after less than 2 hours (fire kept going), but it's early in the learning curve, got it going again rapidly and left the air intake open wider, but dunno how long that lasted.

I ordered the external air kit & fan & stove collar heat shield but all are backordered. On a side note, what is in the external air kit from dutch west that makes it worth $125? Looks like I could rig it from 3" single wall pipe for about $20.

Fuel species is going to be tough, I have property that was logged 2 years ago and there are lots of butts, slash, and other downed dry wood so I'm mainly using pieces and parts not quite big enough for the sawmill, or the bases that were too big/flared out/cut off for some other issue, or stuff cleared for driveway/workshop. Even that has been cut, mixed together in a big pile, sat for a year, stacked and 75% debarked. My woodpile is a mutt.  long and short it's a mix of oak, hickory, ash, and some walnut first burn was quite a bit of walnut. By end of winter I'll be into a section of the pile that's almost all ash. Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out where to work a crane into my wood logistics system, so I loose cool points there.

Shoe config, I dunno, I'll include a pic of the back in a day or two.

I ordered a probe thermometer after posting my last message, so that will be here soonish.

One part of this thread that really intrigued me was the discussion of the gap around the crimped stove connector connection and the stove. The guy at my dealership swore that loose fitting was needed. A the interior wall of a section of adjustable 2 wall interior fit in there perfectly snugly and would have saved me a joint in the system. My local guy said it needed air infiltration there, UL tested, warranty violation, 1/2" screws will take gap, out seemed irritated I'd even noticed that there was massive play in the joint, blah, blah, blah. So I have pretty big gapping there. I'd be irked if I spent an extra $15 on that part of the stove chimney and got an extra joint in the system all for an issue I eventually have to correct.

Chris


----------



## tradergordo

First welcome!  Glad you found our thread here.
Some unrelated comments.  I've been getting much better, and more consistent performance from my stove this year compared to past years.  This could be from any combination of factors:
1) This is the coldest winter I've had so far with the stove, cold always makes the everburn stoves run better (stronger draft)
2) I removed the shoe gasket.  I don't know if this is really helping things or if other factors are to credit, but it certainly isn't hurting anything!  The shoe gasket will tear off the first time you remove the shoe for cleaning (which is necessary every year, as "chips" will accumulate on top of the shoe where you can't see them or reach them without pulling the shoe out).  From what I understand, a CFM technician said this gasket did not need to be replaced, and in my own experience I can say that not having that gasket might even make the stove run better (slightly more secondary combustion air, which might have the same effect as the larger diameter bore hole size reportedly being used on newer models).
3) I have been using smaller splits this year (got 2 cords of free, already split wood from some guy on craigslist, it was split much smaller than I ever do it myself).  Using smaller splits causes the stove to burn hotter (more surface area) hence easier trouble free "everburns".  But I still put big rounds in for overnight burns, and performance has been good then as well.


As for secondary air kits - first are you sure you really want it?  There has been a long running debate about this on this forum.  Personally I think they are worthless at best, maybe even harmful at worst.  If you really want to install one, then to answer your question, yes, you can use cheap dryer vent from any hardware store and save $100 bucks.

As for the gap at the flue collar.  I'm not a technician, but if some pro told you there should be a gap, I'd want to know why!  In my opinion, you don't want any gap there if possible.  The flue runs under vacuum, so any gaps will suck in air.  That can do three bad things:

1) It can cause a fire in the flue.
2) It can cool the flue gasses, reducing draft and possibly causing creosote formation in the chimney.
3) It can reduce the amount of air being pulled though the secondary air intake - thereby reducing everburn performance.


----------



## BurningIsLove

As usual Gordo, we are in agreement....a few inline comments  below



			
				tradergordo said:
			
		

> First welcome!  Glad you found our thread here.
> Some unrelated comments.  I've been getting much better, and more consistent performance from my stove this year compared to past years.  This could be from any combination of factors:
> 1) This is the coldest winter I've had so far with the stove, cold always makes the everburn stoves run better (stronger draft
> 
> 2) I removed the shoe gasket.  I don't know if this is really helping things or if other factors are to credit, but it certainly isn't hurting anything!  The shoe gasket will tear off the first time you remove the shoe for cleaning (which is necessary every year, as "chips" will accumulate on top of the shoe where you can't see them or reach them without pulling the shoe out).  From what I understand, a CFM technician said this gasket did not need to be replaced, and in my own experience I can say that not having that gasket might even make the stove run better (slightly more secondary combustion air, which might have the same effect as the larger diameter bore hole size reportedly being used on newer models).



Yep, seems to run a little easier w/o the gasket there as it improves draft.  It's also nice to get past the apprehension of ripping a (ridiculously overpriced) gasket and being able to clean out back there on a more regular basis.  Altho I havent found much in the way of any refractory chips this year, just some expected fly ash which was easily vacuumed out.  I've also noticed that the blast of secondary air coming in past the shoe now brightly lit on occasion where they was none before (no gap before).  So I'd put some money down that the increased gap is good all around.




> 3) I have been using smaller splits this year (got 2 cords of free, already split wood from some guy on craigslist, it was split much smaller than I ever do it myself).  Using smaller splits causes the stove to burn hotter (more surface area) hence easier trouble free "everburns".  But I still put big rounds in for overnight burns, and performance has been good then as well.



[BIL].  You lucky dog..... Altho I did get a 'free' tree from my brother last year that was a monster, 44" inch thick ash tree.  But I did have to do all the processing work.  Definitely smaller splits work better on the bottom, especially in newer fires.  then larger 'all-night-burners' on the top.



> As for secondary air kits - first are you sure you really want it?  There has been a long running debate about this on this forum.  Personally I think they are worthless at best, maybe even harmful at worst.  If you really want to install one, then to answer your question, yes, you can use cheap dryer vent from any hardware store and save $100 bucks.



Agreed.... $120 is just plain silly for a piece of standard dimension pipe.  The secondary air intake already has a pre-threaded screw hole on top of it all, so there is nothing special at all about the kit that you couldnt put in yourself for a fraction of the cost.  As you'll find, that area of the stove is quite cool to the touch, even after days of continuous operation, so you don't need special ducting that can withstand high temps.

Depending on the home style, I can see some value in exterior air kits, but there are other ways to accomplish the same.  If you have a super tight insulated house like mine, then the stove draft is working against that and is pulling cold air in through cracks potentially cooling other rooms and reducing draft.  But I've found that leaving the nearly connecting garage door open provides abundant fresh air and doesnt 'pull' from other areas of the house.  You can measure whether this occurs in your house  by simply closing connecting doors to the room housing the stove.  If you feel a strong draft coming into the room when the stove is going, an external air kit may be worthwhile.  But as Gordo mentions, a direct vent to outside may not be the best as these downdraft stoves require super hot secondary combustion air to work, so you dont want to introduce super cold air to that chamber.

Chris, as for your 'flame outs', that is a classic condition.  When the draft is insufficient (stack/outdoor conditions or split orientation), this can stall out the everburn.  You will never extinguish the primary fire, which is probably why some people don't acknowledge the 'stall' because they see that the stove is still producing heat and think it's fine.  You'll simply have dirty emissions and a slightly-more-than smoldering fire which is precisely what the modern EPA stoves are designed to prevent.  And you'll have to clean your stack far more often as the flu gas temps will drop well into the creosote-producing range very quickly.

One other note, is that a lack of a rumble is not always indicative of improper operation/stall conditions.  As the fuel is consumed and turns into coals, after a certain point there is insufficient waste gases/smoke to reburn, so that part of the process becomes starved and simply stops.  This is a good time to reload, but do so before the bed of coals itself burns down to the point where you have to build them up again.  It's much more efficient to load 1-2 splits more frequently than to reload 4-6 every 8-10 hours.  Well, at least it's easier and less stall-prone.


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

Alright, got pictures and new questions!

Here's my application.






That is a yurt.  http://www.yurts.com/ Basically a round 30' diameter (so 760ish sq foot) one room building. Prime use is bedroom/tv room. I have land, but haven't quite gotten to the house yet (do have a workshop finished office/kitchen/bathroom so do have home space in addition) but this was a nice way to get some quick nice space away from the office and get the bed out of the workshop (though tablesaws do make good bedside tables).

That's a just lit fire so still smokey. I did get another 4' on the stack, so I now have around 17' of height over the stove top.

Here's the interior pic. Hearth board is a home made deal.






Still working on the everburn, I can get short rumbles that peter out after a few minutes today, but not sustained yet. Huh, just got it going and it sounds like it's going to continue. I think my original "build a coal bed" load of wood was too far burned to be releasing much gas and the new load wasn't going enough to release gas. The comments about smaller splits sounds important, more surface area to off-gas the volatiles so a higher concentration of gas to burn. I have not gotten around to re-splitting wood to smaller size yet. When I was splitting I was shooting for largest splits possible for longer burn times, so I'll be downsizing my splits in the future.

When you have the everburn going on high and turn the air lever down to lower does the rumble drop in intensity or stay about steady?

Exterior air, yep it's controversial, but for me this is a super easy install (got parts at Lowes yesterday for $16 and it will take 5 minutes to drill a hole in the floor and install) and I'd rather be passing cold air through the stove from the outside than putting the building under negative pressure and sucking that air into the building then into the stove. However, Gordo's comment about running exterior cold air into stove making everburn harder to achieve has me rethinking that a bit, then again 20 degree exterior air vs 60 degree (floor level) air when it needs to heat into the 600 degree range to everburn isn't that much extra energy for the stove to put in. 

Also starting to try the super drying technique.  Thinking about building a wood cart with a fan built in to pull air from the woodstove area and run it over the wood to get that extra drying. I intend to leave the stove unattended for much of the work day, so not too comfortable with wood drying on the heath pad (though it's probably quite safe). I'm thinking two shelves on the wood cart, one for the wood that's been drying for a day and one for the new stuff of the day. Just load from the older shelf. Might have to put a door on it to get the air to pass through all the wood.

Last and most troubling for the day. I let the fire totally burn out last night, extended the chimney today, went to start another fire and layign on top of the ash bed was a piece of ceramic. not a chip, the whole piece. It was laying near the door of the stove, glue side up, looks like total glue failure, I wasn't immediately able to figure where it came from, but has to be wall or ceiling near side door. Here's a pic. Any tips on how to reattach (like what glue and do I need to chip all the old glue off) and where the heck it came from would be greatly appreciated. I can hit my stove place Monday to look at the one on the floor and see where this thing came from and get advice there too.






That's about the orientation that I found it in. I might have spun it 180 on it's horizontal axis from how it's pictured. Would have been a hard clunk onto the ash grate if it were not for the ashes that padded the fall.

Thanks!
Chris


----------



## sullystull

Did that piece come from just inside the side loading door (on the floor of the stove)?  Sure looks like the piece inside my stove at that location.  It should be oriented to sit right inside the door--to act as a refractory/fire brick piece.  I can take a pic of mine if that would be helpful.


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

sullystull said:
			
		

> Did that piece come from just inside the side loading door (on the floor of the stove)?  Sure looks like the piece inside my stove at that location.  It should be oriented to sit right inside the door--to act as a refractory/fire brick piece.  I can take a pic of mine if that would be helpful.



It very well may have, might have gotten rolled inside when loading a log. I just looked and it looks like it would fit there and there is no refractory there at the moment. Thanks! Just have to figure out how to make it stick again.


----------



## sullystull

Mine is removable and just rests in its place (no adhesive).  Not sure if that is how it is supposed to be but mine has been functioning just fine.


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

sullystull said:
			
		

> Mine is removable and just rests in its place (no adhesive).  Not sure if that is how it is supposed to be but mine has been functioning just fine.



Looks like they tried to stick it down, the black on it in the photo is glue splotches, I'll just stick it in and see if it wanders much.

Tomas WV? Nice area, I've done a bunch of work for the MNF and spent time all over the forest, but Parsons and Marlinton are two of my favorites. I'll probably tack ramp fest in Elkins in the spring onto a work trip to the region.


----------



## BurningIsLove

> Still working on the everburn, I can get short rumbles that peter out after a few minutes today, but not sustained yet. Huh, just got it going and it sounds like it's going to continue. I think my original "build a coal bed" load of wood was too far burned to be releasing much gas and the new load wasn't going enough to release gas.



Yes, that's the classic 'stall' scenario I'm afraid.  How deep is your coal bed?  One of the times, just got for broke and build a laughably deep coal bed....to the point where the bump-out section of the refractory/fountain is almost (or completely) buried in hot, chunky coals.   A way to help accomplish this is after some splits have been burning for a while, take a poker and strike them, prematurely breaking them into coals before it would have broken apart on its own.  Those pieces will be part coal, but part consumable wood.  Put fresh splits on top of that, and repeat that process until you have said laughably deep coal bed.  It will likely take more than one iteration.  Be careful not to puncture anything delicate inside the stove.  When the depth is sufficient, put some fresh splits on top of that loading up as much as possible to the top  (be careful that coals are going to fall out whichever loading door you use), let them get going, then close the bypass.  The roar/rumble should be quite loud and should sustain itself.    That's how I get new fires going.  It takes longer, and the stove doesnt burn as efficiently w/ the bypass open that long, but it should heat things up quickly.

Also another technique is when you get a stall, it may just be split orientation & air flow around it.  Reopen the bypass, stick the poker in and use it as a lever to pry up the splits and drop em down again.  It may cause some fortuitous settling, but be careful of the internals of course and make sure you dont block off the refractory shoe entrance with a big split.



> The comments about smaller splits sounds important, more surface area to off-gas the volatiles so a higher concentration of gas to burn. I have not gotten around to re-splitting wood to smaller size yet. When I was splitting I was shooting for largest splits possible for longer burn times, so I'll be downsizing my splits in the future.



Small splits are good for building that coal bed and getting things running.   But once you have a sustainable secondary combustion, you can use more of the all-night burners, so dont feel you have to chop your entire supply down to kindling.  



> When you have the everburn going on high and turn the air lever down to lower does the rumble drop in intensity or stay about steady?



About the same.  But have the air wide open (full) when you initially close the bypass, and give the refractory area time to heat up and be sustainable before you start to choke down on primary air.  You can also do that incrementally.  The rumble may drop a little in volume which is OK as you want a lean air mixture in primary to promote the long burns.  But don't risk a stall for it.  Again, examine your emissions.  If there is a faint rumble and you have clean emissions, then you are in happy land.



> Exterior air, yep it's controversial, but for me this is a super easy install (got parts at Lowes yesterday for $16 and it will take 5 minutes to drill a hole in the floor and install) and I'd rather be passing cold air through the stove from the outside than putting the building under negative pressure and sucking that air into the building then into the stove. However, Gordo's comment about running exterior cold air into stove making everburn harder to achieve has me rethinking that a bit, then again 20 degree exterior air vs 60 degree (floor level) air when it needs to heat into the 600 degree range to everburn isn't that much extra energy for the stove to put in.



Actually you have a much larger deficit than that to overcome.  Non-catalytics require 1100+ to achieve secondary combustion, double that of a catalytic.  While even that is not a huge 'deficit' to overcome, keep in mind that on downdraft stoves, you have a very short distance from the secondary air intake along the refractory shoe to the intake of the fountain area.  Thats why the holes of the secondary air in the shoe blast out into the coal bed, to pre-heat the gases before it gets sucked into the fountain area.

You could always employ a similar tactic that I do (but more cleanly).  I dont use an outdoor air kit, but I do have my stove drawing in air from outside the house through the garage door.  So the house is not under negative pressure, but the stove is getting ample fresh air.  You could put a pipe w/ a damper on it to the outside near the back of the stove out of the way.  Air will be sucked in through that and be drawn to the stove vs. coming in around door/window frames.  But the warmth of the room will warm it up a bit before entry into the secondary air intake.  Just a thought, maybe not practical for your set up.



> Last and most troubling for the day. I let the fire totally burn out last night, extended the chimney today, went to start another fire and layign on top of the ash bed was a piece of ceramic. not a chip, the whole piece.



Yep, its just the firebrick that rests N->S inside the side loading door.  I've knocked mine over a few times over the years, dont worry about it.  Just put it back and you'll be fine.  No need to apply it w/ adhesive, just be mindful of it when loading new splits.


----------



## tradergordo

BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Yep, its just the firebrick that rests N->S inside the side loading door.  I've knocked mine over a few times over the years, dont worry about it.  Just put it back and you'll be fine.  No need to apply it w/ adhesive, just be mindful of it when loading new splits.



Yes, I've knocked that piece out of place once or twice too.  Like someone else said, that piece didn't have any adhesive on the older models (mine doesn't), I guess they did that after enough people complained.  But bumping it is very rare for me, I see no real reason to try to glue it or anything.  One thing to check though, is that it seats firmly down, it should NOT stick up above the door opening, if it does it would be much easier to bump out of place again.

As for the outside air kits, if you want to see the full back & forth about it, I'd check out:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/2496/
I think my biggest concern with them is indoor air quality.  Positive pressure is over-rated.  Indoor air quality in any home is typically bad enough, but when you throw a woodstove into the mix, it can be even worse than average.  I think an outside air kit can make indoor air quality worse (by eliminating the small amount of air exchange generated by the stove without an outside air kit).  Of course this remains a controversial idea and some of the guys that promote outside air kits think the opposite is true.  So until some real scientific research is done, I guess there will be no conclusive evidence either way.

I'm curious to know what kind of heating results you are getting with that setup?  Its a big stove for such a small space, but obviously that is offset by the low insulation.


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

tradergordo said:
			
		

> I'm curious to know what kind of heating results you are getting with that setup?  Its a big stove for such a small space, but obviously that is offset by the low insulation.



Still on the steep side of the learning curve. This is day 6 of fires (well one 8 hour fire then a 8 hour break and pretty much 24/7 since. Got the flue probe in last night and found I was trying to fire the everburn at too low a temp. With damper open and air control on high I was only getting around 400 degree flue temps even after protracted burning. With the ash door open a bit I got the flue in the 700 degree range, engaged everburn and boy did it roar, stack temps shot up to about 950 for 5 min or so before dropping back into the 700-800 range. I let it go for about 10 min then air controlled back to 2/3 everburn, which then petered out. Fired it back up and let it run on full air control, I think that it kept everburning but I was asleep fairly quickly so who really knows.

It is keeping the place plenty warm. Having to load every +-6 hours, but I have not yet mastered everburn at all though have had at least two burn periods where it went for as long as the wood was supplying volatiles.

I think my wood is not as dry as I originally thought, at least not all of it. I'm definitely getting a list of things to do differently (though it will be next winter before some get done [dryer wood and more small splits]).

I have noticed that when I engage everburn there is frequently a little puff of smoke from the spot where the air control lever goes into the stove also seems like with the damper open and air lever fully open that even with a really hot, good fire going my stack air temp is only around 400.

I'm out of town the rest of the week, but am going to go back and re-read most of this thread and watch the videos again, try to take it in now that I have a tiny bit of first hand experience.

Seems like even if everburn fails, running with the damper closed (as the air takes a more circuitous route through the stove and can throw more heat into the room) is more efficient than damper open.

Two more factors that will change things a bit, the fan unit just shipped. I've been fairly impressed by the ability of the blower fans on other stoves to really move heat from directly around the stove/contained in the mass of the stove into the living space. So that will be in play soon. The floor is uninsulated at the moment and one of these days I'll get the wiring done and icynene http://www.icynene.com/ blown under there. Also did install the outside air kit, though I just have it pressed in place so I can experiment with the effect of 20deg air on the everburn vs 60 if I'm so inclined. That thread on outside air was something else. Didn't change my basic thought/reasoning that I don't want to be pulling cold air in from the edges of the building and making it move through the room(s) to get to the stove. Comfort counts and 10-20cfm of air use by the stove may not be a lot in the greater scheme, but it's a mighty big draft if it's blowing across your bed.


----------



## BurningIsLove

Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> Still on the steep side of the learning curve. This is day 6 of fires (well one 8 hour fire then a 8 hour break and pretty much 24/7 since. Got the flue probe in last night and found I was trying to fire the everburn at too low a temp. With damper open and air control on high I was only getting around 400 degree flue temps even after protracted burning. With the ash door open a bit I got the flue in the 700 degree range, engaged everburn and boy did it roar, stack temps shot up to about 950 for 5 min or so before dropping back into the 700-800 range. I let it go for about 10 min then air controlled back to 2/3 everburn, which then petered out. Fired it back up and let it run on full air control, I think that it kept everburning but I was asleep fairly quickly so who really knows.



Where is your probe located, e.g. how far removed from the flue collar?  400 does seem quite low for a probe, but not for a surface magnetic.  What is your stove top temp when the probe reads 400?  I think we might have a mis-communication on terminology, as 400 on my flu gas is like a brand new, barely above smoldering fire.  

 Please, please do be careful if you are going to attempt to burn w/ the ash pan door cracked open.  As I'm sure you've noticed, it can be quite a jet engine under such circumstances and is not recommended for safety (and warranty) reasons.  Never EVER leave the door open unattended, even for a few seconds, and never more than a crack.  I long ago abandoned the practice.




> I have noticed that when I engage everburn there is frequently a little puff of smoke from the spot where the air control lever goes into the stove also seems like with the damper open and air lever fully open that even with a really hot, good fire going my stack air temp is only around 400.



Yes, this is the back puffing scenario.  When the draft is insufficient to draw the gases into the secondary combustion chamber, they instead accumulate in the primary chamber.  At a certain point, they ignite en mass and there is not enough space to force them up through the fountain/chimney, so the least point of resistance is out the primary air lever.  This is also dangerous....if you see that happen, open the bypass, and adjust your splits & coal bed, making sure there are no obstructions in front of the refractory shoe.  Let the stove & fire heat up again a few minutes, then close the bypass and try again.  You dont want the stove to repeat that pattern of back puffing.



> Seems like even if everburn fails, running with the damper closed (as the air takes a more circuitous route through the stove and can throw more heat into the room) is more efficient than damper open.



It will prolong burn times, but it's not more efficient or prone to throw more heat.  When it 'stalls', both the primary and secondary are starving for air.  You arent getting any additional heat from the secondary as there is no secondary combustion...so you're letting smoke/waste gases escape out the chimney.  It will also cool to the point of producing excessive creosote and can be a fire hazard over time.  It's safer to run a hot fire w/ the bypass open, which will heat the cast iron and throw a lot of heat, than to starve the whole system and get the longer burns.


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

The Probe is about 18" over the stove top. It's not in any of the pictures, but if it were in the picture it would be right below the elbow that is over the stove.

Thanks for the advice on running damper shut with everburn stalled, maybe I'll quit playing with the damper for a while and just focus on damper open and stack/stove temps. Hard to do, when I get a good fire that I think will everburn I want to close the damper and see if it works.

OK, I've done a couple more loads not cracking the ash door and keeping the damper open and I can get the flue temp up to 600-700 degrees. I think I was just not giving it enough time after loads to really get rolling before trying to enghage everburn. Steep side of the learning curve.  Flue probe helps a lot and that's only been here a couple days.

I have 17' of chimney pipe over the stove inlet and no issues with a too tight house  so draft should be ok. The puffs were only RIGHT when I closed the draft control door, and very brief/hard to notice. Seen maybe twice, could have been when doing 400 deg everburn start attempts. Have not seen anything like it from chimney pipe joints etc.




			
				BurningIsLove said:
			
		

> Central_PA_Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still on the steep side of the learning curve. This is day 6 of fires (well one 8 hour fire then a 8 hour break and pretty much 24/7 since. Got the flue probe in last night and found I was trying to fire the everburn at too low a temp. With damper open and air control on high I was only getting around 400 degree flue temps even after protracted burning. With the ash door open a bit I got the flue in the 700 degree range, engaged everburn and boy did it roar, stack temps shot up to about 950 for 5 min or so before dropping back into the 700-800 range. I let it go for about 10 min then air controlled back to 2/3 everburn, which then petered out. Fired it back up and let it run on full air control, I think that it kept everburning but I was asleep fairly quickly so who really knows.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where is your probe located, e.g. how far removed from the flue collar?  400 does seem quite low for a probe, but not for a surface magnetic.  What is your stove top temp when the probe reads 400?  I think we might have a mis-communication on terminology, as 400 on my flu gas is like a brand new, barely above smoldering fire.
> 
> Please, please do be careful if you are going to attempt to burn w/ the ash pan door cracked open.  As I'm sure you've noticed, it can be quite a jet engine under such circumstances and is not recommended for safety (and warranty) reasons.  Never EVER leave the door open unattended, even for a few seconds, and never more than a crack.  I long ago abandoned the practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have noticed that when I engage everburn there is frequently a little puff of smoke from the spot where the air control lever goes into the stove also seems like with the damper open and air lever fully open that even with a really hot, good fire going my stack air temp is only around 400.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, this is the back puffing scenario.  When the draft is insufficient to draw the gases into the secondary combustion chamber, they instead accumulate in the primary chamber.  At a certain point, they ignite en mass and there is not enough space to force them up through the fountain/chimney, so the least point of resistance is out the primary air lever.  This is also dangerous....if you see that happen, open the bypass, and adjust your splits & coal bed, making sure there are no obstructions in front of the refractory shoe.  Let the stove & fire heat up again a few minutes, then close the bypass and try again.  You dont want the stove to repeat that pattern of back puffing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like even if everburn fails, running with the damper closed (as the air takes a more circuitous route through the stove and can throw more heat into the room) is more efficient than damper open.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It will prolong burn times, but it's not more efficient or prone to throw more heat.  When it 'stalls', both the primary and secondary are starving for air.  You arent getting any additional heat from the secondary as there is no secondary combustion...so you're letting smoke/waste gases escape out the chimney.  It will also cool to the point of producing excessive creosote and can be a fire hazard over time.  It's safer to run a hot fire w/ the bypass open, which will heat the cast iron and throw a lot of heat, than to starve the whole system and get the longer burns.
Click to expand...


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

I've been running this stove 24/7 for a month now (there were two cool down periods for cleaning and stack adjustments in there) and I've developed an opinion. Don't buy this stove. Maybe it was worth it when it was under $1,000 (and I'd debate that too), but now it's in the price range of high quality stoves that work.

Unless you want to spend hours fiddling, waiting, dorking around, running out the back door to see if there is smoke coming out the chimney, turning everything that makes noise in a 2 mile radius off so you can listen for the Neverburn rumble (and for it to fade away 10 minutes later) monitoring stack temperature, building tunnels in the coals to direct gasses, every freaking time you load it, go buy a different stove.

To add insult to injury, when burning 24/7 the front glass only stays clean for a couple days (and one error on air control or wood stacking and it gets ugly quick) before you start a cycle of black buildup after loading/fire cool that burns off when a hot fire is going to a gray soot that's easy to clean, but gotta have the stove cool to clean.

The fan attachment works great for moving heat from the stove into your space, but it has an annoying electrical hum, luckily that's drowned out at high fan speeds. Also has no override for the thermostat. If your fire is not burning as hotly over the sensor area (rear of stove by door) the stove itself can be good and hot for quite a while before thermostat kicks the fan on. For the price it should be darn near silent, last forever, and have every bell and whistle (thermostat override switch) that one would ever want.

My only long term prior wood burning experience was with a 60's (I think) wood stove, I expected these new fangled efficient stoves to be well...... efficient, easy to use and keep the glass at least as clean as that old clunker. Nope. 

It is nice looking and has nice features and if you just want to burn a couple times a winter for ambiance, well it would be good for that.

I went with this stove over the Pacific Alderlea because there were no local dealers for Pacific near me (I wanted local support/parts) and the lack of a side door on the Pacific didn't thrill me. Well the guys at my local DutchWest dealer have never run this stove and are without a clue, and side door vs VOC combustion/efficiency that actually works? I'd weld the side door on this thing shut if it would make it start working.

I'll report in at the end of the burning season if I have an update to this opinion.

Anyone have any tips on calibrating a flue gas thermometer? I noticed on one of my cool down cleaning cycles that it was reading around -200 (markings don't go that low, so thats an estimate/extrapolation) I think that may be why my flue gas temps don't match others here.


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## tradergordo

I don't disagree with you that other designs (including less expensive stoves) seem to be superior in many ways.  But...



			
				Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> To add insult to injury, when burning 24/7 the front glass only stays clean for a couple days (and one error on air control or wood stacking and it gets ugly quick) before you start a cycle of black buildup after loading/fire cool that burns off when a hot fire is going to a gray soot that's easy to clean, but gotta have the stove cool to clean.



My glass has been cleaned exactly once this season, and I'm a 24/7 burner.  Dirty glass is a sign that your fuel has too much moisture - which can also explain why your performance & experience has been "less than stellar".




			
				Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> Anyone have any tips on calibrating a flue gas thermometer? I noticed on one of my cool down cleaning cycles that it was reading around -200 (markings don't go that low, so thats an estimate/extrapolation) I think that may be why my flue gas temps don't match others here.



I don't know how to calibrate them (or even if you can) but the low end I don't think is really intended to be accurate on these types of thermometers.  As for verifying the high end - the only way would be to use a different thermometer, but having the exact temp as someone else is not really important - someone else might have theirs mounted higher or lower which can really change the readings.  Although if your wood is wet, that would also explain why you aren't seeing the higher temps that others report.  

If you want a second data point you might want to pick up one of those $30 laser thermometers from Harbor Freight for reading surface temps.


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

I will admit there are some not-perfectly dry logs mixed in, though the majority seem really dry. Basically I had a log pile sitting for a couple years and stacked it this fall, so the wood with ground contact is less than perfect, but the rest is probably as dry as I expect wood to get without superdrying or a kiln.  

The smoking up of the glass seems to be failed Neverburn cycles or reloads that don't get burning quickly. Some of it's leaning cyle type stuff, on big reloads keep wood a ways back from the glass etc, etc....



			
				Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> Anyone have any tips on calibrating a flue gas thermometer? I noticed on one of my cool down cleaning cycles that it was reading around -200 (markings don't go that low, so that's an estimate/extrapolation) I think that may be why my flue gas temps don't match others here.



"I don't know how to calibrate them (or even if you can) but the low end I don't think is really intended to be accurate on these types of thermometers.  As for verifying the high end - the only way would be to use a different thermometer, but having the exact temp as someone else is not really important - someone else might have theirs mounted higher or lower which can really change the readings.  Although if your wood is wet, that would also explain why you aren't seeing the higher temps that others report."

Yup, exact readings I don't expect, but I'm seeing way too many low readings that don't make sence and I'm trying to get a feel for flue gas temps while burning to learn to burn to minimise creosote buildup.

I have a IR thermometer, the other day towards the end of a Neverburn cycle there were still a good bed of glowing coals and a couple mostly intact burning logs, the outside of the double wall interior pipe was a maximum of 130, stove surface was 250-320 and the flue gas probe thermometer read 75. In trying to learn what works in terms of fire building and keeping an eye on temps for creosote issues and such it's giving me more confusion than data.

I do have a probe type grill thermometer which has always seemed darn accurate (when it says 350, things cook like they were in a 350 degree oven) I think it only goes to 400 or 500 degrees, but that could test the mid range. I had not thought of trying that till now, so that will give me a mini-project for this evening.

I think I can sum up my feelings as frustrated. I don't think I'd have all these issues if I picked a different stove. I think my solve before next heating season may be to move this stove to the interior of my office/workshop building as a backup/really cold weather/power outage infrequent use stove and put a different one in where I burn 24/7. Moving a stove is no fun and that's not an expense I had planned for '09. I've heard cast iron legs are fairly sensitive to dragging/snagging on things so guess I better take those off and re-pallet it for that move. Maybe I'll have a breakthrough and fall in love with it by the end of the burning season, but looks doubtful.


----------



## tradergordo

Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> I will admit there are some not-perfectly dry logs mixed in, though the majority seem really dry. Basically I had a log pile sitting for a couple years and stacked it this fall, so the wood with ground contact is less than perfect, but the rest is probably as dry as I expect wood to get without superdrying or a kiln.



Sorry man, but dead trees lying on the ground for a couple of years rarely make for good firewood, doesn't matter if you stacked them last fall or last spring.  Also, splitting and stacking wood in the fall might be OK if you are burning it a year later, but its definitely NOT good if you were planning to burn it over the next couple months.  Most people don't even count seasoning time until its split and stacked, that means your wood has been seasoned for about 3 months.  That right there is going to give you a bad experience with just about any stove.  I suggest you go out and find a big pile of free pallets, cut them up, and burn that for a few days to see what the stove can do    In a pinch, you can  just mix in pallet wood 50/50 with your crap wood and hope for the best but even that might not work so well.

I tell you the truth - I've definitely grown to like this stove better over time, particularly this year with the colder weather.  Its about 10 degrees here right now (which is pretty cold for Pennsylvania) and the stove is kicking butt, the house is 76 and I've been getting easy 9 hour burns every day pretty much all season.  I got an 11 hour burn today while at work, even though it never got above freezing today the house when I got home 11 hours later was still above 70 and there were enough coals to get a new fire going quickly (I discovered a new way of loading the firebox for ridiculously long burn times - not sure if it only works well when load time temps are teens or lower but that's when I've been doing it - basically I put large splits in a vertical orientation on the edge of the firebox which burn slowly as the middle load coals in the everburn action).

Everything that has been said about the long learning curve with this stove and the need for very well seasoned wood is true.  

My only real big complaint/concern is the deteriorating rear (totally out of sight) refractory material that I and many others have noted.  Until that issue is resolved I couldn't recommend the stove.  Although technically that part of the stove is supposedly covered by the lifetime warranty for those that actually have a valid warranty.


----------



## Nostrum

I've been running a new VC Defiant NC 1610 just about 24/7 since the end of October. Slowly learning why this stove is refered to as a "Neverburn" after considerable reading in this forum.

Setup is a horizontal vent into 8" insulated SS chimney liner that runs up through the old masonry fireplace chimney in my single story home.

I've had considerable trouble getting the Everburn to engage all season. This past week Everburn has been really difficult. It's been quite cold and I'm freezing. Having trouble keeping the main room close to even 65 degrees. Obviously not getting any secondary combustion. Can't get the griddle temperature over about 450 after shutting down the damper. No rumble even after letting the griddle temps go up to 600 before damping. Been running the primary air control wide open all week. Chimney liner was cleaned less than a month ago.

I'm considering removing the flue collar this weekend to clean out around the sides of the non-cat. I saw some mention of also removing the shoe and gasket. Is this necessary?? Could someone help and post exactly how to remove the shoe.

Thanks.


----------



## Central_PA_Chris

Sorry, my bad on the firewood explanation, it was cut to length, not full logs, probably 30% rounds that didn't need to be split and most of the rest just needed halved and that did just get split this fall. No really big, many splits from a round, wood. All piled as if dumped from a dump truck that was slowly moving forward, pretty much surrounded by a gravel lot, so not in weeds and briers, it's the bottom of that pyramid of wood that I suspect didn't get seasoned. Maybe you hit it dead on, but it split as if dry, weighs in hand as if dry, pop a chunk of bark off and it's bone dry underneath.  I've got other wood that's in full tree form that I'm cutting and splitting now (for next year) that's been downed for six months to a year with bark on and that stuff is wet, you can really feel the weight difference and the bark doesn't come off at all while splitting. 

Well, I've been pondering your post for the last 12 hours or so and went looking for moisture meters, found ok looking ones for $20 so I ordered one. If $20 can get me piece of mind, I'm buying. I hope your right and my wood is just too wet, that would give me a bunch of hope for next year (and motivation to keep splitting and stacking now).

That long burn load technique, so it's sorta like vertical (12"?) bookends of splits on both sides with (agian around 12"? long) splits stacked horizontally in the middle?

Cheers!


----------



## Diabel

Nostrum said:
			
		

> I've been running a new VC Defiant NC 1610 just about 24/7 since the end of October. Slowly learning why this stove is refered to as a "Neverburn" after considerable reading in this forum.
> 
> Setup is a horizontal vent into 8" insulated SS chimney liner that runs up through the old masonry fireplace chimney in my single story home.
> 
> I've had considerable trouble getting the Everburn to engage all season. This past week Everburn has been really difficult. It's been quite cold and I'm freezing. Having trouble keeping the main room close to even 65 degrees. Obviously not getting any secondary combustion. Can't get the griddle temperature over about 450 after shutting down the damper. No rumble even after letting the griddle temps go up to 600 before damping. Been running the primary air control wide open all week. Chimney liner was cleaned less than a month ago.
> 
> I'm considering removing the flue collar this weekend to clean out around the sides of the non-cat. I saw some mention of also removing the shoe and gasket. Is this necessary?? Could someone help and post exactly how to remove the shoe.
> 
> Thanks.



When the stove becomes somewhat sluggish...it is time to clean those passages on the back side of the refactory. Be careful when you're vacuuming back there...the thing is very delicate!  

As for the temps....sounds like you're burning less than ideal wood. Get some seasoned wood & you will see that that stove can do in terms of heating!


----------



## Nostrum

Exactley what I thought. Time to clean. This stove is turning out to be way too much work compared to my prior three.

Admittedly wood supply could be better. Burning a mix of seasoned oak and some other stuff. Stored outside since that's my only option, moisture content is no doubt high.

Is it necessary to remove the refractory shoe for good cleaning, and if so, how is it removed??? Don't want to damage anything.


----------



## Diabel

I have not removed the shoe as of yet (3 yrs running). I clean the back of the refactory twice per season along with the chimney (done at the same time). Once mid season & once at the end of the burning season. No matter what stove you have...you should inspect the unit twice per season...& while inspecting why not run the brush through & clean the fly ash from the refactory (common sense to me).


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## begreen

This thread has to have the record for the longest and most views - almost 30000. Maybe it should have its own forum?  :coolsmile:  Thanks tradergordo and all for your continued contributions and insight.


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## tradergordo

Nostrum said:
			
		

> Is it necessary to remove the refractory shoe for good cleaning, and if so, how is it removed??? Don't want to damage anything.



Personally I think the problem is your wood, but I guess it can't hurt to do the cleaning anyway.  Your owner's manual should show how to clean the rear combustion chambers (disconnect flue, stick a vacuum hose down the flue collar, to the back corners).  If you have a digital camera, the best way to see what's going on back there is to stick the camera in, pointed down, and take a flash picture - do it before and after cleaning to see the difference.  As noted, be extremely careful not to hit any of the refractory material while cleaning (don't poke it with your finger or anything else, either!).

Personally I think its a good idea to remove the shoe and clean that area as well because refractory chips can accumulate on top of it.  This is very easy to do.  Pull the metal grate at the bottom of the firebox straight up and out - it isn't bolted down or anything.  Then you can carefully pull the shoe forward and out (the shoe is the thing in the bottom, back, center of the firebox).  But like I've said numerous times, pulling the shoe out will probably destroy the gasket that is attached to its bottom.  Its a $5 replacement part.  But replacement seems to be optional.  I think the stove runs better without that gasket, and supposedly a VC technician told one customer it did not have to be replaced.

But to reiterate - these everburn stoves are VERY sensitive to properly seasoned wood.  If your wood isn't dry, it's difficult and sometimes impossible to achieve secondary combustion.  Like I said before, if you want to see what the stove can do, go get yourself some wood pallets (I think just about every town has free pallets somewhere), cut them up, and burn that for a few days, you will at least see what a hot fire and good secondary combustion is like, although you won't get long burn times.


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## dtabor

Diabel, I have to say your setup must be much different than mine. I take off my flue collar 1x per year to get the ash down in the back areas and it is the biggest PITA. As much as I hate ladders, Id rather clean 50 of my chimneys 32 feet up. The only way to get at this area, I have to remove the whole horizontal piece of pipe then trying to get it lined up again is a bear........


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## tradergordo

Unless its been SPLIT, then STACKED OFF OF THE GROUND (another essential use for free pallets), and spends at least one full Summer air drying (preferably in the sun) then its probably not going to be dry enough.  Sometimes those unsplit bucked logs seem dry, but they really aren't, which is why many only start counting seasoning time after its been split and stacked off the ground.  The moisture meter probably isn't going to help, those things usually aren't all that accurate.  The dirty glass and inability to burn hot or sustain an everburn is all pretty much proof that your wood is too moist.  There probably isn't a whole lot you can do about that this year, you can try mixing in a lot of pallet wood, super drying your wood by carefully stacking it around the stove for at least a few days before burning, not burning at all, or burning with the damper open and just accepting the short burn times and frequent reloads.



			
				Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> That long burn load technique, so it's sorta like vertical (12"?) bookends of splits on both sides with (agian around 12"? long) splits stacked horizontally in the middle?



Almost - but I've just been doing the vertical split on one end (next to the side load door).  The main horizontal load is probably more like 18 inches (since I use my 18" saw bar as a guide when I buck the wood).  I'll take a picture of it if I remember...




			
				Central_PA_Chris said:
			
		

> Sorry, my bad on the firewood explanation, it was cut to length, not full logs, probably 30% rounds that didn't need to be split and most of the rest just needed halved and that did just get split this fall. No really big, many splits from a round, wood. All piled as if dumped from a dump truck that was slowly moving forward, pretty much surrounded by a gravel lot, so not in weeds and briers, it's the bottom of that pyramid of wood that I suspect didn't get seasoned. Maybe you hit it dead on, but it split as if dry, weighs in hand as if dry, pop a chunk of bark off and it's bone dry underneath.  I've got other wood that's in full tree form that I'm cutting and splitting now (for next year) that's been downed for six months to a year with bark on and that stuff is wet, you can really feel the weight difference and the bark doesn't come off at all while splitting.
> 
> Well, I've been pondering your post for the last 12 hours or so and went looking for moisture meters, found ok looking ones for $20 so I ordered one. If $20 can get me piece of mind, I'm buying. I hope your right and my wood is just too wet, that would give me a bunch of hope for next year (and motivation to keep splitting and stacking now).


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## tradergordo

dtabor said:
			
		

> Diabel, I have to say your setup must be much different than mine. I take off my flue collar 1x per year to get the ash down in the back areas and it is the biggest PITA. As much as I hate ladders, Id rather clean 50 of my chimneys 32 feet up. The only way to get at this area, I have to remove the whole horizontal piece of pipe then trying to get it lined up again is a bear........



I think its a total PITA also.  I only do it once a year (before or after the burn season).  And I didn't start cleaning above the shoe until after 2 seasons, but that job is simple, takes 5 minutes.


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## CTBurner

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Central_PA_Chris said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will admit there are some not-perfectly dry logs mixed in, though the majority seem really dry. Basically I had a log pile sitting for a couple years and stacked it this fall, so the wood with ground contact is less than perfect, but the rest is probably as dry as I expect wood to get without superdrying or a kiln.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry man, but dead trees lying on the ground for a couple of years rarely make for good firewood, doesn't matter if you stacked them last fall or last spring.  Also, splitting and stacking wood in the fall might be OK if you are burning it a year later, but its definitely NOT good if you were planning to burn it over the next couple months.  Most people don't even count seasoning time until its split and stacked, that means your wood has been seasoned for about 3 months.  That right there is going to give you a bad experience with just about any stove.  I suggest you go out and find a big pile of free pallets, cut them up, and burn that for a few days to see what the stove can do    In a pinch, you can  just mix in pallet wood 50/50 with your crap wood and hope for the best but even that might not work so well.
> 
> I tell you the truth - I've definitely grown to like this stove better over time, particularly this year with the colder weather.  Its about 10 degrees here right now (which is pretty cold for Pennsylvania) and the stove is kicking butt, the house is 76 and I've been getting easy 9 hour burns every day pretty much all season.  I got an 11 hour burn today while at work, even though it never got above freezing today the house when I got home 11 hours later was still above 70 and there were enough coals to get a new fire going quickly (I discovered a new way of loading the firebox for ridiculously long burn times - not sure if it only works well when load time temps are teens or lower but that's when I've been doing it - basically I put large splits in a vertical orientation on the edge of the firebox which burn slowly as the middle load coals in the everburn action).
> Everything that has been said about the long learning curve with this stove and the need for very well seasoned wood is true.
> 
> My only real big complaint/concern is the deteriorating rear (totally out of sight) refractory material that I and many others have noted.  Until that issue is resolved I couldn't recommend the stove.  Although technically that part of the stove is supposedly covered by the lifetime warranty for those that actually have a valid warranty.
Click to expand...


Tradergordo, could you elaborate on this method for longer burn times, it sounds great. do you stand splits verticle on ends of firtebox? what do you put in middle of firebox? arte all splits verticle?  thanks Mike


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## KarlP

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Sometimes those unsplit bucked logs seem dry, but they really aren't, which is why many only start counting seasoning time after its been split and stacked off the ground.



Do you have a reputable source to back that up?  

I've personally had no problem splitting and burning wood in the same day IF its been cut to 18" lenghts and covered for at least a year.

Wood dries extremely quickly along the end grain and slowly across the grain.  When you air dry lumber, the rule of thumb is one year per inch of thickness.  If the drying was happening along the "split edge" of the splits then 4" splits would take 3-4 years to dry out.  

You also want to seal the ends of lumber with wax, thick paint, or something similar so that the wood at the ends does not dry out too quickly and shrink first splitting the lumber.  A few times I haven't sealed the ends and they always check for ~1' from either end within the first few months of drying.


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## Diabel

dtabor said:
			
		

> Diabel, I have to say your setup must be much different than mine. I take off my flue collar 1x per year to get the ash down in the back areas and it is the biggest PITA. As much as I hate ladders, Id rather clean 50 of my chimneys 32 feet up. The only way to get at this area, I have to remove the whole horizontal piece of pipe then trying to get it lined up again is a bear........



My pipe goes 6' vertical at which point I have a 45 angle. This six foot section is a telescopic double wall pipe, all I do is remove the three screws & lift the pipe up about two feet & I am ready for cleaning. If this was all fixed I imagine it sure would be PITA! 

I just had a thought....you can reach that area (back of the refactory) with a small flexible hose (say 1" thick, HD sell all kinds of these) through the firebox/damper area. Just attach the hose to your shop vac or vacuum hose even with duct tape. The suction might be somewhat weaker but it will work.


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## Nostrum

Thanks for the replies.

As was stated, lift the grate and the shoe easily pulls right out. Gasket came apart also. Super easy to do. I see no reason not to do it as regular maintenace.

I'll pull the flue collar and vacuum the backside of the refractory over the weekend since a warmup is in the forecast. Probably run the brush down the chimney pipe too.


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## Diabel

You will see, she will run like a champ!

Yeah, the chimney could never be too clean, when I clean the back of the refactory I always run the brush through the chimney.


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## CBburner

tradergordo said:


> That's interesting, what kind of flue and chimney setup do you have (length, bends, interior/exterior)? Ideally that everburn "roar" really SHOULD continue for a long time after you close the damper, that means it is efficiently burning the secondary gasses, although its not supposed to keep getting hotter and hotter when the primary air is closed (mine seems to stabilize around 600-650 degrees). What temps do you see and how are you measuring them? Have you examined and tested your door gaskets?
> 
> p.s. The removable polished brass handle sounds nice - you should sell them to Vermont Castings because almost anything would be better than their delicate ceramic handle! I wonder how many dealers get complaints from their customers about damaged handles? Have you made any custom handles for your own stove? I would love to see some pics! The problem with using any type of metal for a permanent handle is that it probably would get very hot unless you can figure out a good way to insulate, or us
> e some kind of wire wrap like you see on other stoves.


 





I found the perfect solution to the handle problem. I drilled through the centers of two wine bottle corks, the synthetic ones, and drilled a recess on the end of one cork to counter sink the head of the screw. It looks great, will not break, feels nice in your hand, and is a little larger than the original handle so you get a better grip. If there is a logo on the cork, just rub it briskly and it will come off, or just wait for time/use to wear it off. If you can find some with non-beveled edges they meet up better, no groove between the two corks. It can be tricky to drill the holes perfectly centered but I managed to do it freehand with no drill press. I've made them for three of my neighbours who also have Dutchwest stoves. Here's a picture.


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## mark axen

Thanks to all for the helpful, interesting info!  My 800 sf  Adirondack house is fairly well insulated. Currently using Woodstock Soapstone Franklin Cottage DV- LP stove.  I am considering these non-cat woodburners:   DUTCHWEST  2477 (small);  HEARTHSTONE Craftsbury;  QUADRAFIRE Yosemite;  HARMAN Oakleaf;  LOPI Leyden.  Seems all are made in the USA.  ( I will use a RINNAI  DV- LP as back-up  & supplemental heater) . All things being equal,  is it better to have a smaller stove buring 'stronger', or a larger stove burning a bit lower?... The sf space heating ranges listed in the brochures have a huge range.  Like most everyone, I am looking for well built stove that is durable and works well !  Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks.        -Mark Axen.


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## branchburner

mark axen said:


> 800 sf Adirondack house is fairly well insulated. Currently using Woodstock Soapstone Franklin Cottage DV- LP stove. I am considering these non-cat woodburners...


 
I would choose a somewhat smaller stove burning 'stronger' over a much larger stove burning a bit lower - sometimes hard to get 'low'. Those are all fine stoves you listed... personally, I would go with a Woodstock Keystone cat for 800 sf.

You might want to start a fresh thread of your own, instead of piggy-backing on this one, to get more feedback.


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## begreen

mark axen said:


> Thanks to all for the helpful, interesting info! My 800 sf Adirondack house is fairly well insulated. Currently using Woodstock Soapstone Franklin Cottage DV- LP stove. I am considering these non-cat woodburners: DUTCHWEST 2477 (small); HEARTHSTONE Craftsbury; QUADRAFIRE Yosemite; HARMAN Oakleaf; LOPI Leyden. Seems all are made in the USA. ( I will use a RINNAI DV- LP as back-up & supplemental heater) . All things being equal, is it better to have a smaller stove buring 'stronger', or a larger stove burning a bit lower?... The sf space heating ranges listed in the brochures have a huge range. Like most everyone, I am looking for well built stove that is durable and works well ! Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks. -Mark Axen.


 
This is an old thread and your needs and mentioned stoves are quite different. If you start a new thread you'll get better answers and attention to your specific needs.


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## chance04

I know this is an old thread started many many moons ago. I just wanted to thank everyone who has come in and given their experiences. Back in June I jumped on a Craigslist ad for a dw 2478.  $425 was just to good to pass up for a stove that looked so elegant. I brought it home, cleaned her up and started googling how these new age epa burners worked. Well my first discovery was a thread here on hearth.com telling anyone considering a DW to run not walk in the other direction. My heart sank, did I really just shower away 400 plus dollars on a hunk of scrap metal? I had already removed our old Sierra pos and installed the"new" DW in its place so I told myself it was gonna be a do it die winter. Thanks to this thread and all the little tips and tricks revealed along the way, I'm happy to report I'm very pleased with our purchase. The stove has very good heat, I'm still getting used to different ways of loading for a decent over night burn. So far we have seen typical heat times of 5-6 hours before output starts to dwindle.  and the house begins to cool.  I also think it may be just a bit small for our 2000 sq ft but at present time the upstairs is not in use so we're have blocked it off with thermal curtains to keep heat down stairs. Here is a pic of the new girl in action.

Tony


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