# My house is a sieve!



## lml999 (Nov 5, 2013)

<sigh>

My house is a 50+ year old multilevel in suburban Boston. When we moved in 23 years ago, we added  cellulose insulation in all of the walls and I've added a second layer of fiberglass insulation on the attic floors. We have baseboard hot water heaters and central air.

Last night I left a nice fire going in the insert in the living room, 70 degrees, down to 62 at 4:30 this morning. 

That heat is going somewhere. 

We have recessed lights in the main living area and I know that I'm losing a lot of heat through those cute little chimneys. We also have original windows on the main floor, covered with storms.

The house isn't particularly drafty. Yet I can point to a half dozen places where I know air is escaping and others where insufficient insulation is allowing transfer, and I'm just a little overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problem.

I'd love to start over and build a passivhaus, one that essentially needs no heat or cooling systems...but that isn't in the cards for quite some time, and not on my existing lot. Also, we like our neighborhood and the house is in good shape overall -- recent roof, good electrics, newish Buderus furnace, etc...

I guess I'm stuck and looking for some support. There's lots of busy work to do and I'm concerned that if I climb around the attic and address 50% of the leaks and drafts, it won't make much difference.

Anybody else been there, done that?

Comments, suggestions appreciated!


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## webbie (Nov 5, 2013)

I think you are probably as Good as it Gets or close considering the house type - that's not really too bad of a loss of heat. Sure, you could go all out and it would maybe add 2 degrees to that lower temp (give the same overnight temp), but the question is whether it would be worthwhile. 

We live in a newer house built to 2005 MA. standards and I would say that we would lose close to the same about of heat as you did - maybe 2 degree less. I feel that's fairly tight. 

If it were me I'd probably just use the backup heat as needed and look for small improvements I could make. Examples include making sure the storm windows are tight and caulked (or make them so), etc. 

Even windows with storms lose maybe 6X or more heat per sq ft as a wall does...maybe more. But insulated tight shades are expensive and not always the right style.

Sealing a house airtight will likely cause you to have some smells in there that you don't want...so a certain amount of air is good (IMHO). And, you could seal everything and heat still goes out through the windows, etc.


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## begreen (Nov 5, 2013)

All houses are sieves. What varies is the size of the mesh.


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## lml999 (Nov 5, 2013)

webbie said:


> I think you are probably as Good as it Gets or close considering the house type - that's not really too bad of a loss of heat. Sure, you could go all out and it would maybe add 2 degrees to that lower temp (give the same overnight temp), but the question is whether it would be worthwhile.



Ouch. I was hoping for a silver bullet.  

I guess that with the new furnace and the insert I'm in pretty good shape on an operating cost basis. We go through 2-3 tanks of oil a year (including indirect hot water) and 3-4 cords of wood. But I know that I can squeeze more from the house with some elbow grease; I'm just stuck a bit wondering where the biggest returns might be.

With regard to shades...I did install Ecosmart shades on the front picture window and its two side windows. They make a measurable difference at night. I might add some more for the two windows behind a sofa in the tv room...those are good Hurd double paned windows, but are a bit drafty in the cold.


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## webbie (Nov 5, 2013)

I kid you not that if I tighten up the house more, my wife will open the window more at night.


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## lml999 (Nov 5, 2013)

webbie said:


> I kid you not that if I tighten up the house more, my wife will open the window more at night.



Oy. Our wives must be of similar vintages. Mine has a fan next to her side of the bed. She can't decide whether she's hot or cold.  

I don't mind a cold house at night. I'm plenty comfortable, and the dog keeps my feet warm. But it pains me to think of the dollar bills flying out through the holes in the sieve.


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## woodgeek (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm going to disagree. Air sealing is one of the easiest and most effective things you can do to a house, and makes it more comfortable not less. Fewer allergens and less noise inside....it's a no brainer. And its not intuitive, most heat loss is through the framing of your house out your attic, not where you feel a tiny draft.  My 1960 house had 8 sq ft (!) of opening between the framing and the attic.  That is the way they built em back then.

You can have a pro come out and do a blower door test, and he can tell you projected savings and costs on an airsealing job.

My house started out as leaky as a barn, and is now well airsealed, and that alone is saving me ~30% of my total heating bill, and we are a lot more comfortable.

And the thing with ventilation is **control**.  Having it when you want it.  In mild weather or when you are having a party, open some windows.  In the winter, or when there's a Nor'easter outside, you will still have plenty of fresh air.


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## PapaDave (Nov 6, 2013)

I believe most heat loss is through the roof, so I'd start there, and do a small section at a time if you're feeling a bit overwhelmed.
Seal up (as woodgeek suggested) then insulate. It's a relatively inexpensive thing to do and more than likely, you'll notice the improvement fairly quick. I did some air sealing in the house last year (not the attic yet) that helped the comfort level quite a bit.
I don't have dollars to throw away, so depending on the size of your house ( and a whole bunch of other factors), I would try my darndest to reduce that fuel use. How big is your fuel tank and are you referring to actual full cords of wood or  "face cords"?
Just my .02.


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## Circus (Nov 6, 2013)

lml999 said:


> Ouch. I was hoping for a silver bullet.
> 
> I guess that with the new furnace and the insert I'm in pretty good shape on an operating cost basis. We go through 2-3 tanks of oil a year .


 
Did you buy a new fuel oil furnace?  Isn't nat. gas a lot cheaper?  Baseboards use boilers. Central air? I'm comfused.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 6, 2013)

Seems like theres room for improvement. My old leaky house does NOT lose that much. Even with no fire at all.Perhaps 3-5 Degrees.Try going around with one of those IR temp guns ($25)Find the cold spots. You may have leaky outlets or may have missed some  wall cavities when insulating. My house is at least 80 yrs old.Only partially insulated. I overcome some of the deficiencies with a solar collecting sun porch and cheap solid fuel heat. 3000SF. Under $1000 per Yr for heat


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## woodgeek (Nov 6, 2013)

lml999 said:


> Ouch. I was hoping for a silver bullet.
> 
> I guess that with the new furnace and the insert I'm in pretty good shape on an operating cost basis. We go through 2-3 tanks of oil a year (including indirect hot water) and 3-4 cords of wood. But I know that I can squeeze more from the house with some elbow grease; I'm just stuck a bit wondering where the biggest returns might be.
> 
> With regard to shades...I did install Ecosmart shades on the front picture window and its two side windows. They make a measurable difference at night. I might add some more for the two windows behind a sofa in the tv room...those are good Hurd double paned windows, but are a bit drafty in the cold.



I thought the same way about my house 7 years ago.  If I am spending too much on heat, then anywhere I can feel cold coming in must be 'the problem'.  I spent a year or two chasing little drafts, and putting shrink film on windows, and other than stopping the little local problem, those things did **nothing noticeable** to my energy bill.  Houses are complicated, and most of where air/heat is going in and out is hidden.  Its a complex puzzle that is best left to pros.  IIRC, MA has some nice subsidized energy audit programs (that subsidize non-DIYable work that I paid to have done).  Even if you opt to do the work DIY, the audit will tell you where to best put your effort. 

At this point, my house uses less than 50% of the BTUs it needed when I bought it, and I have all the original windows.  They are less 'drafty' now b/c the rest of the house is not sucking air in through them.  Don't waste time on bandaid solutions.


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## laynes69 (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm 100% with woodgeek. We found over 30 open cavities in our attic hidden under insulation. It was over 12 sqft of open area. I couldn't heat the house over 68 when it dropped below 25 degrees, after airsealing the attic I kept the house at 70 when it was 5 below zero. Since then I've found many more larger leaks and voids on the shell of the home as well as increased insulation in the attic. I'm sure I cut heat loss 30% just airsealing the attic. After insulation, the upstairs of the house increased 10 degees. We have an attic access to the roof. I realized we had a problem when I entered the attic and it was much warmer than outdoors. It's tedious work, but well worth it, and it doesn't cost much to airseal. Work at the attic, then move into the basement. A blower door test will tell the truth.


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## Frozen Canuck (Nov 6, 2013)

Yes seal up your homes envelope. If you can't stop the outside from coming in you will never stop your energy $$$ from flowing out. Relatively cheap to do, bit of a PITA but worth it when the draft in your wallet stops.


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## begreen (Nov 6, 2013)

If you really want to stop heat transmission out of the house you need to create a thermal break. My BIL did this when he built his house by building the exterior walls 7" thick using staggered 2x4s. They also put up a carefully sealed vapor barrier. That was 30 years ago and the house still is miserly to heat. In an existing building another way to really drop heat leakage is to remove the siding then clad it with a 1" insulation barrier under new siding.


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## DickRussell (Nov 7, 2013)

begreen said:


> .....In an existing building another way to really drop heat leakage is to remove the siding then clad it with a 1" insulation barrier under new siding.



Yes, exterior sheet insulation can help greatly by reducing air leakage and thermal bridging through the relatively more conductive wood framing, as well as adding R value to the wall assembly. But be careful about the thickness of insulation added. Unless the exterior foam added is EPS, which is relatively vapor-open compared to XPS or to foil-faced polyiso (practically zero permeability), you have added a vapor retarder to the exterior side of the assembly, and thus run the risk of retarding outward drying potential to the point where the sheathing retains too much moisture. Adding exterior insulation can be a very good thing to do, from a building science point of view, as long as it is thick enough to keep the sheathing warm enough. A good read on this subject can be found here: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing


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## EatenByLimestone (Nov 8, 2013)

When doing air sealing I like motivation.  After the first small snowfall, look for where the snow melts off first.  That is where your heat is escaping.  Find and fix that air leak.  The air will go to the next spot of least resistance.  Find and fix that.  Pretty soon you'll notice the snow stays up there longer and your house is warmer.  Work your way down to the floor of the upstairs.  Then hit the basement as I've read the 1st floor of a house doesn't loose as much heat.  On a cold, windy day I went around to all of the light sockets and found the drafts coming into those. 

Motivation is the key for me.  I like to see the snow stay on my roof and feel better knowing that drafts that used to exist no longer exist.  

Matt


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 8, 2013)

Remember on a multi story house, the place acts as a giant chimney. Cold air comes in the lower floors and warm  air goes out the upper floors. You don't notice the leaks so much in the upper floors as the warm air is going OUT.


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## lml999 (Nov 8, 2013)

PapaDave said:


> How big is your fuel tank and are you referring to actual full cords of wood or  "face cords"?
> Just my .02.



Oil tank is 275 gallons. Full cords. Is there any other kind?


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## lml999 (Nov 8, 2013)

Circus said:


> Did you buy a new fuel oil furnace?  Isn't nat. gas a lot cheaper?  Baseboards use boilers. Central air? I'm comfused.



Yes, new oil furnace, double lined oil tank and indirect water heater. Natural gas is just slowly making its way into my town and is still a distance away, so I didn't have a choice. The baseboard heat and central air are indeed two separate systems. Apologies for the confusion.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 8, 2013)

lml999 said:


> Yes, new oil furnace, double lined oil tank and indirect water heater. Natural gas is just slowly making its way into my town and is still a distance away, so I didn't have a choice. The baseboard heat and central air are indeed two separate systems. Apologies for the confusion.


Around here good slightly used oil furnaces are a dime a dozen. My son scraps most of them  he gets from working with superior energy, a company that installs all kind of heating systems. No one wants them. Most people are changing to something with a less unpredictable fuel source and price.


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## PapaDave (Nov 8, 2013)

lml999 said:


> Oil tank is 275 gallons. Full cords. Is there any other kind?


Well, around here, a lot of folks still refer to a "face" cord as a cord.
Other areas do too. I was trying to wrap my head around how much energy you're using.
Thanks for the info.


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## lml999 (Nov 8, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Around here good slightly used oil furnaces are a dime a dozen. My son scraps most of them  he gets from working with superior energy, a company that installs all kind of heating systems. No one wants them. Most people are changing to something with a less unpredictable fuel source and price.



New England is still heavily into oil heat. I bought a high efficiency gas condensing Buderus because, for me, it was the best solution to a 50 year old boiler. No need to review that decision.


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## maple1 (Nov 8, 2013)

DickRussell said:


> Yes, exterior sheet insulation can help greatly by reducing air leakage and thermal bridging through the relatively more conductive wood framing, as well as adding R value to the wall assembly. But be careful about the thickness of insulation added. Unless the exterior foam added is EPS, which is relatively vapor-open compared to XPS or to foil-faced polyiso (practically zero permeability), you have added a vapor retarder to the exterior side of the assembly, and thus run the risk of retarding outward drying potential to the point where the sheathing retains too much moisture. Adding exterior insulation can be a very good thing to do, from a building science point of view, as long as it is thick enough to keep the sheathing warm enough. A good read on this subject can be found here: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing


 
That was a good read.

I have had in my mind that when the time comes to do something about the vinyl siding on this house of ours (only good thing about it is you don't need to paint it), we'll put some foamboard on the house under whatever the new stuff happens to be. But after reading all that, I think I'm in a catch-22 likely along with a lot of others - with vapour barrier on the inside, adding foamboard to the outside might set up a condensation problem in your walls. That hadn't really occured to me before. The thicker you make it, to try to keep the sheathing warm enough - the less outward drying potential there is.


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## Seasoned Oak (Nov 8, 2013)

lml999 said:


> New England is still heavily into oil heat. I bought a high efficiency gas condensing Buderus because, for me, it was the best solution to a 50 year old boiler. No need to review that decision.


I would think even a pellet boiler would be much cheaper to operate and i know a lot of new englanders use coal as well. But each persons situation is different and you must have already explored all other options. Those condensing stoves are very efficient ,i used to have a natural gas model.


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## mass_burner (Nov 8, 2013)

laynes69 said:


> I'm 100% with woodgeek. We found over 30 open cavities in our attic hidden under insulation. It was over 12 sqft of open area. I couldn't heat the house over 68 when it dropped below 25 degrees, after airsealing the attic I kept the house at 70 when it was 5 below zero. Since then I've found many more larger leaks and voids on the shell of the home as well as increased insulation in the attic. I'm sure I cut heat loss 30% just airsealing the attic. After insulation, the upstairs of the house increased 10 degees. We have an attic access to the roof. I realized we had a problem when I entered the attic and it was much warmer than outdoors. It's tedious work, but well worth it, and it doesn't cost much to airseal. Work at the attic, then move into the basement. A blower door test will tell the truth.


 

+3, you live in MA, call for a free energy audit. they do a blower door test. and then give you a list of options. my kitchen, LR used to be 54 in the morning when I woke up without heat on. now it hasn't been below 66 yet. its very reasonable, even cheaper than going through a private contractor. Mass Save:  http://www.masssave.com/


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## DevilsBrew (Nov 8, 2013)

Windows.


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## begreen (Nov 8, 2013)

Linux


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## wannabegreener (Nov 9, 2013)

I agree on the MASS SAVE program.  I used NH SAVES and wow.  I have been doing upgrades to my house since i have owned it.   It is hard to know what caused the biggest bang for the buck, but air sealing was certainly a huge improvement.  I replaced all of the windows and the house was so leaky, the new windows didn't do anything. When NH saves came in, the were initially blaming the windows, but it was my attic.  I don't think I would have increased the efficiency by just air sealing the attic if I hadn't already done the windows, but every little bit helps.  I think my results are pretty impressive, but I'm still trying to make it better with a house that is 30 years old.

Worst year for OIL = 1116 gal
Worst year for Electicity = 11131

Best year (last year)

OIL  = 263           = 25%  or a savings of 75%
Electicity = 7344 = 66%  or a savings of 34%

New boiler - system 2000 saved about 26%
wood insert saved about 25%
solar hot water and attic air sealing done at the same time =  about 25%

My goal for oil was for 1 tank of fuel per year.  I am just over that now.  Still hoping I can get there.
My goal for electricity was for a PV system that the state of NH thinks is normal - 5KW I think, I'm still over that but trying

My MIL lives in MA and we have had MASS SAVE there. If you have them do the work (or one of their contractors) you get a discount on the work they do.  There was just too much junk in her attic at the time (40+ years of junk) that I need to clean out before the work can be done.  Still working on cleaning it up.  Maybe will have the work done at her house next year.  I seem to remember that the discount was a 75% discount.  The discount in NH was only 50%.

Once I had my attic sealed, it was amazing how much tighter my house was.  I could tell that the draft for my insert was no where what it was before.  It still drafted, but the house was much smokier.

Hope this helps.


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## Ashful (Nov 9, 2013)

Woodgeek, I have read a few articles claiming a lot of winter (and year round) respiratory ailments are the result of houses that are sealed to tight, as is the present norm.  Arguments have been made that those living in leaky houses may have better short term and long term respiratory health.

For those of you with insulated shades, how is your interior window paint holding up?  Usually, the insulating shade results in very cold glass, upon which your more humid indoor air will condense.  This is a big problem for me, whenever I have a storm window removed.  There's a reason insulation is installed with the vapor barrier to the inside, in colder climates.


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## woodgeek (Nov 9, 2013)

Joful said:


> Woodgeek, I have read a few articles claiming a lot of winter (and year round) respiratory ailments are the result of houses that are sealed to tight, as is the present norm.  Arguments have been made that those living in leaky houses may have better short term and long term respiratory health.



We haven't read the same stuff. I think relative humidity is the bigger factor.  They used to think 'cold season' was from us all being cooped up in the winter making transmission easier.  Now it seems that low indoor humidity is what does it, by making all our membranes runny AND by allowing germs on surfaces/air to survive longer (in a dry 'mummified' state).  When I started out, my house airsealing was so bad, I couldn't bump the humidity at all even with a big humidifier.  Now a modest one can keep me at 30-35%RH all winter long, and my family is a lot healthier.  And if one of us gets something, the rest don't always get it, so I am a believer.

That said, indoor air quality (IAQ) is really a cutting edge topic these days, and not simple either.  I think within 10-20 years attached garages will be seen as an issue (e.g. prob requiring pro airsealing and certification at resale), gas stoves/ ovens will need to have dedicated forced exhaust ventilation, smokers in the house? oh boy.  After the energy pros were done with my house it is tighter than ever,  specifically my ACH50 = 5, which is right on the edge where folks say you need mech ventilation. (I got to ACH50 7-8 myself DIY, from a barn-like >20 earlier)  I ended up cracking a couple windows during the fall weather to keep the place 'fresh', but in the winter there will still be plenty of stack-effect driven ventilation.

Of course, this is not an either-or thing.  We are moving to a world that is tight AND ventilated with HRVs.  HRV prices right now are set at 'yuppy-early adopter' levels. IOW, a good one can cost thousands. They are simpler than refrigerators, and somehow cost 5X more.  With my allergies, I'd love it if all the air in my house was filtered before it came in from outside, and the place was tight and positive pressure otherwise.  IN 10-20 years that might be the norm.  And health concerns, not energy efficiency, will be the driver in the end, IMHO.


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## maple1 (Nov 9, 2013)

We've had an HRV in our house since it was built 18 years ago. Paid around $600 for it then, it was a leftover model. I was casually looking at the local building supply last week while I was there, new ones on the shelf around $900 that had way more filtration features than our current one.

Hardly new tech, and shouldn't cost thousands? Unless we're talking about different animals? Of course that is just the unit, ducting is needed too.


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## begreen (Nov 9, 2013)

I installed a monster HRV system in a photolab in 1984. The unit was about 4'x8'. It was leading edge tech back then almost 30 yrs. ago.


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## woodgeek (Nov 9, 2013)

maple1 said:


> We've had an HRV in our house since it was built 18 years ago. Paid around $600 for it then, it was a leftover model. I was casually looking at the local building supply last week while I was there, new ones on the shelf around $900 that had way more filtration features than our current one.
> 
> Hardly new tech, and shouldn't cost thousands? Unless we're talking about different animals? Of course that is just the unit, ducting is needed too.



Yeah, there are cheaper units out there....In a HCOL area like mine, having a pro install will put it into the thousands, and then they will upsell you a cadillac unit, etc.

Right now I am on the fence about what to do for ventilation.  In option 1 I can DIY install an intake vent, a filter box and a 60 cfm blower with a timer/controller for a few hundred bucks.  The house would have guaranteed nice IAQ in the mild seasons, reduced outdoor allergens, and I could just turn it off in the cold weather.  Option 2 is DIY install a full HRV,  perhaps at higher CFM, run in the winter, etc, for even better IAQ.  Adds close to $1k to the cost and complexity to the install, and I just don't see the rationale.  Even if my house were airtight, so I needed mech vent in the winter, the energy savings of option 2 over 1 would be ~$100/year, marginally justifying the HRV cost.


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## maple1 (Nov 9, 2013)

Adding HRV in a retrofit situation would be another whole bunch of considerations. Pretty hard to get things ducted to every room the way they are SUPPOSED to be. It was bad enough getting mine all run when I only had the bare framing to worry about.


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## Ashful (Nov 10, 2013)

Woodgeek, re:  winter sickness, there are many more factors, the simple lack of sun-driven vitamin D production, a major factor for anyone in the north.  However, I am a believer that we humans have not spent millions of years adapting to life in an airtight living space, built of and wrapped in chemical laden materials.  Seal tight, then ventilate?  Maybe I'm just way ahead of the curve, with my zero-carbon passive ventilation.

It will be interesting to see how the grand kids of those living in a totally HEPA filtered environment turn out.  Will their respiratory systems tolerate going outdoors?


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## woodgeek (Nov 10, 2013)

Joful, you seem to missing the point.  Its about controlled ventilation, not making houses 'airtight'.  In old style construction (15-25 ACH50), the amount of fresh air varies from too little during mild weather to too much during cold weather to absurd levels during windy weather. And all that air is coming to you filtered through your dusty wall cavities and bringing in loads of humidity in the summer.  In a tighter house (approximately where current code is, 5 ACH50), you get the right amount of fresh air more of the time, can humidify easily in the winter if you like, and if you want more fresh air, you just open a window.  In an emerging future standard (say 1-2 ACH50), you would provide as much as fresh air (or more) than the current code house, 24/7, through an HRV, and still save net energy.

None of these houses are airtight, and the newer ones should have better IAQ.

Of course, the other side of the equation, sources of indoor pollution is important too.

And I am a big believer in Vitamin D3.


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## simple.serf (Nov 10, 2013)

One of the first things we found in our house when we moved in was that the curtains would move when the wind blew outside. We also found a 1/2 gap in our front door, and both sliding doors had no weatherstripping left. Add in the Zonolite, and we had some insulation/draftiness challenges. Start with the easy stuff, get the windows sealed up with the window rope seals and add insulation where and when you can.


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## Ashful (Nov 11, 2013)

woodgeek said:


> Joful, you seem to missing the point.  Its about controlled ventilation, not making houses 'airtight'.  In old style construction (15-25 ACH50), the amount of fresh air varies from too little during mild weather to too much during cold weather to absurd levels during windy weather. And all that air is coming to you filtered through your dusty wall cavities and bringing in loads of humidity in the summer.


I read you loud and clear, woodgeek.  Just playing Devil's Advocate.  However, I will say that I've never owned a house with exterior wall cavities.  Plaster on solid masonry is all I know, and a big part of the reason I'm a believer in letting it breath.  No troubles with lack of humidity here, as a mud- stacked stone wall set in the earth provides plenty of capillary water to disperse.  Moisture and mold is a huge problem for those living in colonial era houses, around here.


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## woodgeek (Nov 11, 2013)

Yar.  Based on the few stone houses I've seen, they seem to run pretty tight.  The leakage they do have seems to be 'visible' in that it is associated with windows and obvious drafts.  You might be closer to current code recs for airsealing than most 20th century framed houses.


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## Ashful (Nov 11, 2013)

I never thought of it like that, but I'm sure you're right.  If air does manage to somehow meander thru 18" of solid stone, the interior plaster is a continuous and impervious barrier.  My drafts are entirely doors, windows, and soffets, in the stone part of this house.


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## lml999 (Nov 11, 2013)

Okay folks, you got me motivated! I have some easy fixes -- holes/gaps in a couple of interior walls where plumbers/HVAC people made a mess, a few small foundation cracks (already filled), and some other basics. I'm going to knock those off a few at a time.

I'm more concerned about the attic. Lots of recessed lights, central air vents and flexible ducts, some crap stored up there, a mix of flooring and bare joists...some exposed side wall, etc. I think that the recessed lights are the big offenders, just not sure what to do about them. Some of the fixtures have been updated to IC, so I can box them, a few of the others have not. Not easy moving around in the attic...low roof, some exposed roofing nails, just a bundle of fun!

The Mass Save energy audit is a great idea...not sure whether it makes more sense to have them come in now, or  after I've done a first round of fixes. I think the latter...


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## mass_burner (Nov 11, 2013)

lml999 said:


> Okay folks, you got me motivated! I have some easy fixes -- holes/gaps in a couple of interior walls where plumbers/HVAC people made a mess, a few small foundation cracks (already filled), and some other basics. I'm going to knock those off a few at a time.
> 
> I'm more concerned about the attic. Lots of recessed lights, central air vents and flexible ducts, some crap stored up there, a mix of flooring and bare joists...some exposed side wall, etc. I think that the recessed lights are the big offenders, just not sure what to do about them. Some of the fixtures have been updated to IC, so I can box them, a few of the others have not. Not easy moving around in the attic...low roof, some exposed roofing nails, just a bundle of fun!
> 
> The Mass Save energy audit is a great idea...not sure whether it makes more sense to have them come in now, or  after I've done a first round of fixes. I think the latter...


 
In my LR/KIT/FR/DR I have 19 recessed cans. They were all dammed and isolated by mass save. There is only a 2d difference between ceiling temps of insulated vs. recessed light. You're looking for a baseline, so have them come in now. Its free to get the blower test and they compare this later to a blower test when all improvements have been done. They go into your attic and tell you what you need to do to have them do the work. Attic is the biggest bang and lowest cost, pretty much for cost of rolled bats for my attic I got 6 extra inches blown in celluse/labor, door sealling, attic sealing, basement sealing, they even made 2 attic entry doors with 2" foam and weather stripping.


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## woodgeek (Nov 11, 2013)

I had 6 old style can lights in my celing, and I left them for the pros to do last.  I figured they were about 1 sq. in. each, and I was more worried about the square feet of opening elsewhere.  Other the obvious plumbing and chimney chases and open framing cavities, the next big thing is the top plates in the framing.  In my case, every interior wall had a 2x4 plate on top, with an 1/8" drywall gap on both sides connecting the attic to the interior wall cavity.  Times >100' linear of plates, this worked out to be several square feet of opening that I caulked myself.  My energy pros approved my handiwork, and said they would have charged me ~$1500 just to do the plates.

I am going to vote for calling in the pros early....in my piecemeal approach over several years, I had some balance issues when some parts of the house were tighter than others, and I had some framing shifts that cracked some drywall.  There is something to be said for doing it all at once.


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## Mpodesta (Nov 11, 2013)

I feel the Pain!

house is 130+- years old and EVERYTHING leaks  lol

During a bad storm, paper on the kitchen table would find there way onto the floor from the draft.  My Ps50 stove does it's damnedest keeping the misses and I warm (oil steam boiler is murderous to run $$$$). I have Mass SAve coming DEC 14th to do what they do.

In the mean time to help with heat loss, I sealed to doors and windows with weather stripping and this helped greatly. The windows are newer(installed about 10-15 yrs ago before my grandparents passed away) but the doors are ancient (few skeleton key). No instillation to speak of.
Looking to get the house updated as best as possible (I had all the wiring redone and changed from knob n tube) 


Been quite the project thus far


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## BrotherBart (Nov 11, 2013)

Mpodesta said:


> During a bad storm, paper on the kitchen table would find there way onto the floor from the draft.


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## blades (Nov 12, 2013)

Windows& doors, seldom spoke about but needs to be done is to insulate seal the window /door frame. To do this you need to remove the interior trim, low expansion spray foam works well for this and seal the frame to wall interface, There is a gap left all the way around for shims to sq window/door in opening. seldom if ever on older homes is this sealed up. Attic: cellulose good, fiberglass bad - as temps drop fiberglass loses r value. no need to remove just add a couple inches of cellulose over the top this stops the air flow migration. Basement sill area best to do those cavities with foam  either cut pieces to fit and use spray foam to seal the edges or a complete foam spray in.  Batting of any type there becomes a rodent haven.  Can lights need a fire retardant box over them to stop air flow and prevent contact with insulation - There pre mades around or diy options. then insulate over that. Drop down attic stairs  are one of the biggest heat loss areas and the hardest to do much about.


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## Ashful (Nov 12, 2013)

Mpodesta said:


> ...the doors are ancient (few skeleton key). No instillation to speak of.


Half of the doors in my house pre-date the invention of the rim lock (skeleton key "box lock").  I feel your pain.

On the plus side, I can peer out thru the skeleton key hole, and see if someone's standing outside.


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## PapaDave (Nov 12, 2013)

Silver linings, Joful.
Plus, you have a nice air exchange thing going on.


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## Ashful (Nov 12, 2013)

My exterior doors actually do have a pendant type shutter hanging over the skeleton key hole on the outside, which is usually in place, unless whoever used the door last slammed it too fast.  The interior doors are peer-thru, though.

You actually can see stuff thru those little keyholes (the theory of diffraction at work?), so those old-time Rascals and Stooges movies weren't stretching the truth that far.


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## Mpodesta (Nov 14, 2013)

Yup, it is what it is.


Problem with the setup is, every door is an unusual size, so nothing off the shelf can replace them without redoing all the jambs...........and the issue with that is, if I do anything with resizing, I could never match the Stain/paint/molding ect ect... that's there now


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## mass_burner (Nov 14, 2013)

Mpodesta said:


> Yup, it is what it is.
> 
> 
> Problem with the setup is, every door is an unusual size, so nothing off the shelf can replace them without redoing all the jambs...........and the issue with that is, if I do anything with resizing, I could never match the Stain/paint/molding ect ect... that's there now


 

for door sealing, they use standard 8' sections and cut to match door dimensions. It seals from the outside and comes in white and dark brown. Its just metal/rubber so you can paint it. I have not seen the same item in big box stores, but I'm sure you can order it somewhere.


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## Ashful (Nov 14, 2013)

Mpodesta said:


> Problem with the setup is, every door is an unusual size, so nothing off the shelf can replace them without redoing all the jambs...........and the issue with that is, if I do anything with resizing, I could never match the Stain/paint/molding ect ect... that's there now


Someone needs to take away your old house privileges, if you'd even consider replacing original doors.  They make interlocking metal weatherstripping for this (no rubber... that sh*t don't work), which works as well as, and holds up far better than, the weatherstripping on any modern door.

http://www.kilianhardware.com/indoorcawiwe.html

M1 & M2 is the only way to go.  This is a one-time job.  Owners of your house 100 years from now will thank you for not ruining their house.


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## Mpodesta (Nov 14, 2013)

Joful said:


> Someone needs to take away your old house privileges, if you'd even consider replacing original doors.  They make interlocking metal weatherstripping for this (no rubber... that sh*t don't work), which works as well as, and holds up far better than, the weatherstripping on any modern door.
> 
> http://www.kilianhardware.com/indoorcawiwe.html
> 
> M1 & M2 is the only way to go.  This is a one-time job.  Owners of your house 100 years from now will thank you for not ruining their house.




Put down the pitch forks and extinguish the torches  lol

Most of my doors are gorgeous, very well built and could stop a direct blast from a tank, These have been all refinished by a professional to look like as they were day 1 (me and wood working dont get along)

The "other" problematic drafty doors are the complete opposite of most of my doors. Poorly built with longevity being an after thought, nothing antique or of value with these bad boys

This is the door from the porch/mud room (2nd door just like it going into the kitchen)


Yes............its closed in the picture (latched)


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## Ashful (Nov 14, 2013)

Yikes!  Okay... privileges restored.


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## begreen (Nov 14, 2013)

Mpodesta said:


> Put down the pitch forks and extinguish the torches  lol
> 
> Most of my doors are gorgeous, very well built and could stop a direct blast from a tank, These have been all refinished by a professional to look like as they were day 1 (me and wood working dont get along)
> 
> ...



That door looks thin and badly warped. Is it scheduled for replacement? A gap like that can add up to the equiv. of a many square inch hole in the wall.


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## Mpodesta (Nov 14, 2013)

Yes, the one behind it (not pictured) is the same door but not warped/bent like that


That door enters a mud room/enclosed porch that was added onto the house after it was built.  That enters into the kitchen and is the main source of my heat loss and drafts. I've done all I can to seal off the kitchen from the porch area to minimize heat loss. 
I have a second original door to the outside threw the second parlor (my grandparents use to run a mom n pop shop from this parlor) This is sealed quite well (still have the original cloth and tack weather stripping, works quite well)

My Mass Saves appointment is DEC 14th for my energy audit. The girl on the phone told me to halt any construction/renovations, that most of the updating will be covered by grants and rebates from the state and federal. 
Next area I'm tackling is the "exhaust" hole in my kitchen wall from the cook top, at some point, the hood was replaced with a vent-less filter screen setup, but the hole was never sealed off. I'm going to fill it temporarily with some Roxul to at-least hold back some of the draft/cold this weekend.


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## Ashful (Nov 14, 2013)

Mpodesta said:


> Next area I'm tackling is the "exhaust" hole in my kitchen wall from the cook top, at some point, the hood was replaced with a vent-less filter screen setup, but the hole was never sealed off. I'm going to fill it temporarily with some Roxul to at-least hold back some of the draft/cold this weekend.


Hmm... I never even thought of tht 6" tube that connects my range to the outside world!    This is a range set into a central island with no hood, so vent is located between the left and right burner sets, and exhausts down thru floor, across basement ceiling, and outside just a few inches above grade.  I don't know what sort of damper it has (it's a new range), if any.


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## semipro (Nov 15, 2013)

Joful said:


> Hmm... I never even thought of tht 6" tube that connects my range to the outside world!    This is a range set into a central island with no hood, so vent is located between the left and right burner sets, and exhausts down thru floor, across basement ceiling, and outside just a few inches above grade.  I don't know what sort of damper it has (it's a new range), if any.


Most have "butterfly" or other types of flap dampers that prevent most back flow.  I've found these types of dampers still let in/out quite a bit of air when the hood is not operating.  I added a nice quality and good sealing exhaust damper to our duct where it exits our house.  I no longer feel cold drafts coming in through the hood in winter.


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## Ashful (Nov 15, 2013)

Our kitchen, a ca.1894 framed addition, is the most drafty part of the house, so I hadn't even noticed any additional draft from the range vent.  We have plans to gut and redo, but it's still a ways out on the list of big projects.


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## Mpodesta (Nov 17, 2013)

Sealing up the vent made a huge difference, even to the point of im still waiting for the ball to drop....


Got the doors sealed up better and the vent taken care of and its night and day now, I can feel the heat from the stove making it up stairs (I was blowing it in to the kitchen from the living room with the hopes of it finding it's way to the stair well)

Next project is wrapping the stink pipe (not sure what you call it, the pipe that runs from the basement to the roof to vent the drain pipes) Its a big ole black cast iron pipe that's in the kitchen closet and upstairs closet. It does a great job of transferring the cold from outside and acting like and ice cube.
I'm going to wrap it in pipe insulation to help block out the could


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## semipro (Nov 17, 2013)

Mpodesta said:


> ext project is wrapping the stink pipe (not sure what you call it, the pipe that runs from the basement to the roof to vent the drain pipes) Its a big ole black cast iron pipe that's in the kitchen closet and upstairs closet. It does a great job of transferring the cold from outside and acting like and ice cube. I'm going to wrap it in pipe insulation to help block out the could


Interesting.  I've never seen referenced  a plumbing vent as a source of energy loss in a house.  
Off the top of my head I can't see any reason not to insulate it though.  
I would think that you'd want the insulation to have a vapor barrier though to keep warm wet air from passing through it and condensing on the cold pipe.


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## Mpodesta (Nov 17, 2013)

I wouldn't say its a huge loss, but when I place my hand on it, it quite noticeably colder (as is the surrounding air in the 2 closets)


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## woodgeek (Nov 17, 2013)

Plumbing vent is a standard airsealing target. Caulk (or can-foam) the pipe to the sheeting at the attic floor plane (if you have a standard vented attic with insulation on the attic floor).  Oftentimes, there are several square inches left open there....equivalent to several recessed light cans, and well worth sealing carefully.

Since there is no airflow in the pipe (due to the water traps) the loss due to conduction in the pipe and air convection within is likely small, however.  If you want to put a little pipe insulation near the airsealing boundary, it will help with that, but I would expect savings to be <$1/year.


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## Mpodesta (Nov 17, 2013)

Out of curiosity, I hit the the room/closet and pipe with my temp gun


Room: 70-71*F
closet: 65-66*F (This is with the door closed all weekend)
stink pipe: 61*F

theirs never been any condensation built up on it (I dont really check tho). Couple bucks in pipe wrap wont hurt much, even tho the yearly savings wont really add up


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## lml999 (Nov 23, 2013)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I would think even a pellet boiler would be much cheaper to operate and i know a lot of new englanders use coal as well. But each persons situation is different and you must have already explored all other options. Those condensing stoves are very efficient ,i used to have a natural gas model.



Pellet boiler might be less expensive to operate, but it wouldn't work for our lifestyle. I travel for business and we travel occasionally. Can't see my SO feeding the hopper while I'm away, and I'm not sure how long a full hopper lasts.

Never really considered the alternative...it was either go with a standard oil furnace or the Buderus. From a pure economic standpoint, a cheap furnace would have been better, but I was thinking about both efficiency and eventual house resale value. A pellet boiler would probably reduce the resale value as most buyers in this area would consider it a drawback rather than a feature. 

On the other hand, resale value may be moot as an increasing number of the multilevel houses in my town are bought by builders and knocked down, replaced with McMansions.


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## Clarkbug (Nov 23, 2013)

Just wanted to toss these out there for those with old windows that are yet weatherstripped (like mine.....)

These seem to be making a huge difference for me.

http://www.arttec.net/Thermal-Windows/

The air sealing is a big step, and the extra air space doesnt hurt either.  I have been able to crack about one out per night after getting off of work.  Using some finger-jointed PP from the big box, and a bunch of the shrink-wrapped window kits I got last spring for a few nickels on clearance.  Mine wont win any beauty contests (you could make some nicer that would blend in), but not watching the curtains blow around is a nice change!


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## lml999 (Nov 26, 2013)

Joful said:


> Someone needs to take away your old house privileges, if you'd even consider replacing original doors.



My original doors are (and in some cases, were) hollow core. Do I get a pass?


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2013)

lml999 said:


> My original doors are (and in some cases, were) hollow core. Do I get a pass?



I think you just gave joful a coronary.


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## georgepds (Nov 27, 2013)

DickRussell said:


> Yes, exterior sheet insulation can help greatly by reducing air leakage and thermal bridging... A good read on this subject can be found here: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing



If you like GBA , you might want to take a look at what Lstiburek  has to say about walls and vapor barriers "For the record, it makes no sense to have a vapor barrier on both sides of an assembly. If the assembly gets wet or starts out wet we are pretty much doomed…"
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-073-macbeth-does-vapor-barriers/


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## Ashful (Nov 27, 2013)

My storm window project has repeatedly proven to me that the conventional wisdom is correct.  Vapor barrier should exist only on the "warm" side of an insulated cavity.  A vapor barrier on the "cold" side of an insulated cavity is a condensation substrate.

If your original doors are hollow core, then you are immune to all old house snobbery!


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## lml999 (Nov 27, 2013)

Joful said:


> If your original doors are hollow core, then you are immune to all old house snobbery!



LOL!

My house was built at about the time I was born, and *I'm* not old!


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## Nelson (Jun 7, 2014)

I'm in a similar situation as the OP. 30+ year old home with 6-8 in. of chopped fiberglass in the attic along with ~40 recessed lights. Love the recessed lighting but you might as well punch a hole in the ceiling 40 times with regard to losing heat up through the ceiling. Plan is to do a complete air seal job in the fall. Toyed with the idea of doing it miyself but I have 2100 sq ft of attic with a fairly shallow roof pitch. I took one look up there and said "hell no". Going to blow in cellulose up to r-60 after the air sealing is done. 

I've seen a link or two to the Building Science web site posted in this thread but figured it was worth mentioning again. A TON of great info there if you're into learning about the science behind it all. Also a few great docs on IAQ and the latest research on what may or may not be causing us to be more ill during the winter months.

http://www.buildingscience.com/

WRT to air exchange and IAQ (Indoor Air Quality). After the air sealing is done, I am going to put in a 80 CFM fan in my master bath that has motion detection capabilities. I can set the fan to run at a very low CFM all the time - then when motion is detected, it will kick up to the full 80 CFM. I think this is a nice compromise in the event that the house is getting too tight. You don't need a ton of air movement to keep the IAQ at a respectable level.

At any rate, was searching on a completely different topic (garden fencing) and came across this thread. Figured I would add my $.03. I have a thread in here somewhere, with more partiuclars on my situation, that I will update once the work is done.


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