# Pressurized water tank bad?



## Ratherbfishin (Feb 23, 2011)

My water pump is "short cycling"  from what I have read, the bladder usually goes bad rather to add air. Would you agree? I have no experience with these so I am wondering is it worth it to drain the tank and add air or just get a new tank. I have no idea how old it is as it was here when we bought the house. Showering is a PITA because one second you have pressure and the next you don't.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Steve


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## DWW68 (Feb 23, 2011)

sounds like your tank is bad. It will need to be replaced.


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## pen (Feb 23, 2011)

How long has it been since you checked the pressure in your tank?

I have to add a few pounds to mine every 6 - 8 months.  If you've been a while you just might have a very slow leak.

I have to drain mine then fill it to 27 lbs air.  I can't tell you the water settings that mandated that, but that's what I go to because of how my pressure switch is set.  (sorry, it's been a while)

pen


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## WhitePine (Feb 23, 2011)

If the bladder is bad, you need a new tank, period. Otherwise, you haven't provided much information. Is there a gauge by the tank allowing you to see what the cut-in and cut-out pressures are? You may have a pressure switch adjustment issue, or you may just need to adjust the charge in the tank. Could also be a leak in the system.

Short cycling isn't just an annoyance, but will reduce the pump's longevity if it isn't taken care of.

More information please.


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## Dr.Faustus (Feb 23, 2011)

its worth it to try, esp if you dont know if the bladder has ruptured. does water come out of the tire valve? if it does, replace the tank.

if not and its only air, figure out what your cut in pressure is. it'll be the pressure reading of the water right when your pump comes on. then shut off the well pump and drain the system. leave a valve openen while you refill the tank. fill it with air to 2 lbs less than what your cut in pressure is.

close your water valve and turn on the well pump. if that didnt fix your problem, come back and post.


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## semipro (Feb 23, 2011)

Dr.Faustus said:
			
		

> its worth it to try, esp if you dont know if the bladder has ruptured. does water come out of the tire valve? if it does, replace the tank.
> 
> if not and its only air, figure out what your cut in pressure is. it'll be the pressure reading of the water right when your pump comes on. then shut off the well pump and drain the system. leave a valve openen while you refill the tank. fill it with air to 2 lbs less than what your cut in pressure is.
> 
> close your water valve and turn on the well pump. if that didnt fix your problem, come back and post.




+1

I've had to do this twice in 10 years.


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## benjamin (Feb 23, 2011)

You can add air to a bladder tank and save yourself some time, and save the wear on the pump until you can replace it.  That's if the pressure is low.  If you don't have an air fitting, under a cover that you're not "supposed" to tamper with, then the tank might not have a bladder and it's just waterlogged.


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## DAKSY (Feb 23, 2011)

benjamin said:
			
		

> You can add air to a bladder tank and save yourself some time, and save the wear on the pump until you can replace it.  That's if the pressure is low.  If you don't have an air fitting, under a cover that you're not "supposed" to tamper with, then the tank might not have a bladder and it's just waterlogged.



+1. My holding tank has a leaky bladder & I've charged it 3X in the past year with no ill effects.
I have to drain the sediment from the lines afterward, because the charging stirs up crap at the bottom.
Each charge has lasted about 4 months...


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## woodsman23 (Feb 24, 2011)

I have not touched my tank for 5+ years... mmmm


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## woodsman23 (Feb 24, 2011)

ratherbfishin said:
			
		

> My water pump is "short cycling"  from what I have read, the bladder usually goes bad rather to add air. Would you agree? I have no experience with these so I am wondering is it worth it to drain the tank and add air or just get a new tank. I have no idea how old it is as it was here when we bought the house. Showering is a PITA because one second you have pressure and the next you don't.
> 
> Thanks for any help you can provide.
> 
> Steve




ratherbfishin where are you at in the southerntier?? I am in franklinville.........


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## Ratherbfishin (Feb 24, 2011)

Thanks for the advise guys, I have not had a chance too work on it yet...Just cleared a plugged up bathtub drain...man never ends does it? Anyhow I did look at the cut in pressure and it is about 20. Shoots up to 40ish when pump is on and then repeats. So to simply add air I have to drain the tank? It does have a air valve on top.  No water comes out of it.

Steve


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## Dr.Faustus (Feb 24, 2011)

holy cow, 20? thats some seriously low water pressure.

if you're happy with that then great, i'd be pretty annoyed trying to shower with 20 psi.

if you are not happy with it, first diagnose and or fix your pressure tank issues, then try to raise the psi. you can raise it by turning a nut on the pressure switch. turn off the power to the pump first. the nut turns clockwise for higher cut in pressure. the cut out pressure is automatically 20 psi above whatever the cut in pressure is on most switches. theres also a diagram under the dust cover of most switches explaining how to do this. it takes at least 5 turns of the nut to notice anything different.

remember to keep your tank 2 psi below whatever you make your cut in pressure. and test your settings multiple times by using the water. you want to make sure your pump can supply enough water and pressure to actually achieve the cut out setting, otherwise the pump would run forever trying. i keep mine on 50/70 and i've been able to hit 70/90 reliably but i didnt like it, the shower head wanted to fly away.


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## WhitePine (Feb 24, 2011)

Here's how you are "supposed" to do it. 

Note the exact cut in pressure of your system. It sounds like you are running 20/40, which is one of the more or less standard settings.

Turn everything off and bleed all the water out of the system by opening a bunch of faucets.

Using an air pressure gauge and a compressor or bicycle tire pump, set the tank pressure to 2 PSI less than your cut in pressure.

Turn everything back on a check operation.

You may have noted there is a flaw in these directions. How do you know the water pressure gauge and the air pressure gauge are both calibrated the same? 2 PSI is a small margin of error. So, if you follow the procedure and still have problems, try letting a little bit of air out of the tank.

Before setting the tank pressure , make sure the pressure switch cut-in and cut-out settings are correct.


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## WhitePine (Feb 24, 2011)

Dr.Faustus said:
			
		

> holy cow, 20? thats some seriously low water pressure.
> 
> if you're happy with that then great, i'd be pretty annoyed trying to shower with 20 psi.
> 
> ...



I've lived on 20/40. It's a bit of a pain. More standard is 30/50, which I have run as 40/60. Higher than 60 gets you into pressures that are beyond what's normal for a domestic water system.


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## WhitePine (Feb 24, 2011)

One last thing. Pressure tanks for domestic well water systems are sized according to a number of factors including the GPM rating of the pump, the depth of the pump, the well's head, and the design pressure. Properly designed and maintained, the pump will run at least one minute every time it starts. Running less than one minute will not allow the start windings to cool properly.

Changing any of the settings or operating with a torn bladder will likely affect pump life, and not in a good way. Raising the operating pressure without increasing the size of the tank can do the same thing.

That's if the installed tank is large enough in the first place. Sometimes they are too small to begin with and should be replaced with a larger tank. You can also plumb one in parallel to increase the capacity.


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## woodsman23 (Feb 24, 2011)

You also need to be sure your pump head and tank along with the copper lines are rated above 50psi. I have a neighbor who has pvc (plastic)  water lines and he has had many issues with them.


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## Ratherbfishin (Feb 25, 2011)

The 20 psi does annoy the crap out of me. I had to go get one of those water saver shower heads just to increase the pressure so you feel something hit you. Otherwise with a regular shower head the water just barely is enough to rinse off. I like to enjoy a shower so I want to get this resolved. My in-laws shower has so much pressure It is almost worth the drive to NJ just to use it! 

by the way the tank is a Duracel model DP-82 with a max operating pressure of 75 psig

Steve


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## LLigetfa (Feb 25, 2011)

If you are going to be replacing the tank, you might consider a cycle stop valve and a smaller tank.  THat way you can have higher constant pressure and not have the pump cycling.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html


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## Dr.Faustus (Feb 25, 2011)

theres lots you can do to remedy this. lots. first off, you can piggy back as many blue pressure tanks as you want or can afford. the benefit is steady pressure, plus my water still works for a while after the power goes out. they arent too expensive at lowes. i use 2 of them. you can increase the pipe size but that might only give you a marginal improvent.

last but not least there is a whole house pressure boosting pump. it is kinda costly about 7-800 ish if you do it yourself, but you will easily obtain 90 psi. luckily i didnt need to go that far. 

just dont go buying pressure tanks without determining whether or not your well pump can handle them and can your well supply enough water to fill them up in a run. 

try seeing just how much pressure your pump can build with your current setup first. it might solve your issues.


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## WhitePine (Feb 25, 2011)

I would consider replacing the 20/40 pressure switch with a Square D 30/50 model or equivalent. They aren't expensive. You will need to calculate your tank size. Calculators are available on line from several tank manufacturers, such as the following:

http://www.flexconind.com/html/sizing.html

Or use this downloadable worksheet:

http://www.watersystemscouncil.org/VAiWebDocs/WSCDocs/9884303Sizing_a_Pressure_Tank_FINAL.pdf


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## LLigetfa (Feb 25, 2011)

Dr.Faustus said:
			
		

> ...you can piggy back as many blue pressure tanks as you want or can afford. the benefit is steady pressure...


Not sure what you mean by steady... it will still vary between kick-in and kick-out, just stretch out the time factor.  The ratio of the time that the pressure is high and the pressure is low, doesn't change.  The agony of low pressure is just extended.  A CSV on the other hand, will give you much more time at the higher end with true constant (steady) pressure and less time at the lower end.  The smaller the tank, the less time you suffer through low pressure.  Doesn't do squat though in a power failure.


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## WhitePine (Feb 25, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> A CSV on the other hand, will give you much more time at the higher end with true constant (steady) pressure and less time at the lower end.  The smaller the tank, the less time you suffer through low pressure.  Doesn't do squat though in a power failure.



LLigetfa, do you have a CSV installed? They are somewhat controversial. It doesn't help that the primary seller and others with apparent financial interests in pushing them seem to be mods in the Terry Love plumbing forum. Unbiased information is a bit difficult to come by.


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## Dr.Faustus (Feb 25, 2011)

what i meant by that was that having multiple tanks will raise the chance that you'll stay within your cut in and off pressures for a greater period of time, even if you are using water faster than your well pump can supply it. 

of course to see a benefit, your cut in pressure must be at a level acceptable to you in the first place. at 20/40 yes mult. tanks would prolong the 20 psi range.

if he was running 50/70 or even 40/60 all the tanks would do is cycle the pump a lot less and when it does cut in the pump would run for a longer period of time.

before when i only had 1 tank, if i had clothes washing, dishwasher running and i decided to water my garden, that was the end of my water pressure. now i can do all those things at once. not indefinately but for a longer acceptable period of time.


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## LLigetfa (Feb 25, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> LLigetfa, do you have a CSV installed? They are somewhat controversial. It doesn't help that the primary seller and others with apparent financial interests in pushing them seem to be mods in the Terry Love plumbing forum. Unbiased information is a bit difficult to come by.


LOL
If you frequent TerryLove.com, you might notice that I'm not very popular there.  Seems like they don't really like DIYers giving advice.  They only want us asking for advise and then we best not challenge old school pumpmen.  Some of the controversy is the old school thinking of pumpmen versus the CSV guy called valveman.  I've invited valveman to come here and post on this forum and he did.

As for your question, I am sold on the concept and if it were not for the limitation of my micronizer, I would have one right now.  Here is a thread on my woes that explain why the CSV won't work for me, even though valveman seems to think it will.
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?40296-Getting-less-than-5-GPM&p=287553&highlight;=

Oh, as for this thread topic, here is a good explanation by valveman of the CSV.
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?40558-Advice-on-Bladder-tank/page2


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## AilleXWest (Feb 25, 2011)

With the tank I have from Sears you can change  bladder very easly. They seam to sell the same one at Tractor Supply and they sale new bladders. You still need to ad air now and then but that is not a big deal. I think the new bladder was $80 and a new tank was $300
Anna Maire


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## LLigetfa (Feb 25, 2011)

Good point.  I think you can identify a tank with removable bladder by the flange.  Some tanks have a diaphram that was inserted before the two halves were welded together.


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## WhitePine (Feb 25, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> Oh, as for this thread topic, here is a good explanation by valveman of the CSV.
> http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?40558-Advice-on-Bladder-tank/page2



In that thread he also makes the claim that if you don't have a CSV, you get unacceptable pressure changes when showering, which is absolute nonsense. I've had a number homes on wells. The only one that gave me any issues showering had a 20/40 jet pump, and the real issue turned out to be a restriction in the plumbing, not at the well.

I've yet to see an unbiased authority pronounce the CSV to be a good thing. I have seen a study refuting most of his claims, but that was done by a tank manufacturer, so it's no good either.


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## LLigetfa (Feb 25, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> In that thread he also makes the claim that if you don't have a CSV, you get *unacceptable *pressure changes when showering...


The problem with a subjective term such as unacceptable is that what you find as acceptable, I might not.  Keep in mind that unacceptable WRT showering, is a more recent phenomenon with the advent of all these water conserving fixtures mandated by agencies that believe wasting water is a crime.  Give me an old fashion shower over most of these modern ones any day, especially when you get into the big box store models.  If you want a decent shower these days you need to go to a good specialty plumbing supply and deal in the back room like it was some sort of contraband.

As for consuming more electricity, that has been refuted.  A jet pump or submersible is not a positive displacement pump like you might see with a hydraulic log splitter.  On a log splitter, holding pressure back would surely make the motor work much harder to the point of stalling.  On a jet pump, allowing more water to flow through it makes it work harder.  Very different principles that old school pumpmen cannot wrap their mind around.

Holding back flow does increase the pressure between the well and the CSV and the pump needs to be right-sized with the piping.  This point is not being very well conveyed, probably since they don't want to talk of the elephant in the room.  The CSV never holds back all of the flow.

Wearing out a pump is more likely from frequent starts than constant running.

I grew up on a farm with well water.  My father didn't have any mechanical aptitude and so I was the pumpman, mechanic, and electrician, etc..  I've been a DIYer all my life and lived on several well systems in that time.


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## WhitePine (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry but I don't buy the refuted part. Refuted by whom? The guy selling the stuff? 

I know very well that is not a positive displacement pump. It doesn't matter. The fact is the pump runs longer with the CSV than it would without it. If the pump is running, it is consuming electricity. The excess electrical energy is converted to heat. He claims that by by reducing the number of starts, it saves electricity, because the start windings are not employed as often. But that's not necessarily so. As I recall, the tank company tests (wish I could find them again) found that there was little difference in the average number of starts between a CSV equipped system and a conventional system.  That makes sense to me as a long time well user.

Anyway, it seems there has been no independent testing done, which I find telling. If independent testing has been done, and it had determined that there were real merits to the CSV, then I'm sure the company would be pointing long and loud to those test results. Since they aren't, I remain skeptical of the device's merits.


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## LLigetfa (Feb 26, 2011)

There are some old school nay sayers that think a pump draws a given amount of amps and that the same pump throttled back by flow restricting would draw the same or more amps.  The fact is that the current a pump draws is roughly proportional to the flow rate, so when the pump is flow rate limited, it actually draws less current than when it's moving more GPM.  That was what I meant.

You seem more concerned about the overall cost of operation in terms of electricity consumed.  In that regard, no, I don't think a CSV regulated pump uses any less electricity overall but I also don't think it uses much more.  IMHO, it is a very small price to pay for constant pressure.  The alternative would be to build a 200 foot tall water tower.


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## semipro (Feb 26, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> There are some old school nay sayers that think a pump draws a given amount of amps and that the same pump throttled back by flow restricting would draw the same or more amps.  The fact is that the current a pump draws is roughly proportional to the flow rate, so when the pump is flow rate limited, it actually draws less current than when it's moving more GPM.  That was what I meant.
> 
> You seem more concerned about the overall cost of operation in terms of electricity consumed.  In that regard, no, I don't think a CSV regulated pump uses any less electricity overall but I also don't think it uses much more.  IMHO, it is a very small price to pay for constant pressure.  The alternative would be to build a 200 foot tall water tower.



I would think that pump current is dependent upon both flow rate *and *head pressure.  I put an ampmeter on my pump leads and let it run through a complete cycle.  Although the flowrate decreases as the pressure in the the tank builds up the amperage remained the same (as remember, I may need to do the test again).

I'd also be concerned about cooling the pump motor.  I've heard that the water flowing past the motor, which is usually mounted below the pump, cools the motor.

Edit: when my well pump does die I plan to install a variable speed unit to address these issues.


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## WhitePine (Feb 26, 2011)

The two negatives that I see are increased power costs to some degree and increased impeller erosion. The latter could be a big deal if there are a significant amount of suspended solids in the water, especially for pumps with plastic impellers. 

On the other hand, I don't see any real benefit either. For average household use, I'm pretty sure the device does not significantly reduce the number of pump starts. In fact, the use of CSV and a small tank, as is now being advocated, may just lead to an increased number of starts.

And as I said earlier, I just don't see any problems with pressure fluctuation on a properly operating and adjusted 30/50 or 40/60 PSI system. I've lived with them for a long time, both with standard and low flow fixtures. We have never had an issue with it.

In most of the places I have lived with a well, all the neighbors were also on wells. I have never heard any of them complain about pressure issues with their wells. Standard systems just plain work. 

In agricultural/horticultural applications with heavy watering demands, it would be a different story.


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## velvetfoot (Feb 27, 2011)

I have a friend with the same original problem and putting some air in the well tank valve did the trick.
Mine has also not needed anything in the last 5 years either, however.

Another friend who worked on water wells in his youth suggested a well pump switch with a lever on it that shuts off the pump if pressure gets too low.  I added it because it seemed like a reasonable cost improvement.  When the power goes off, however, and the water has been run during the outage, the switch has to be reset.

After reading about some water treatment threads on here in the past, I can only say that I am greatful that my water is good enough that I don't have to become knowledgable about all the technology required for reasonable quantity and quality drinking water.


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## LLigetfa (Feb 27, 2011)

Ja, +1 on the low pressure shut-off.  Worth the minor pain to reset it and save from burning up the pump.  These switches with the low shut-off need to be tested from time to time.  I was surprised to find out mine stopped working after my wife drained the tank during a power outage and when the power came back on, the pump started.  There is space for the diaphragm to move and this space can fill with rust and mineral over time.  That can also cause the pressure switch to not come on at the usual preset.  I finally change mine out when it would drop to 18 PSI before coming on.  A new switch with low shut-off was less than $20 at Menards.

Also don't trust what the pressure gauge says, especially if it's old.  It could be built up with the same rust and minerals.  I now have a second gauge on the top of my bladderless air volume tank and I also installed a shraeder valve so I can compare the pressure with a tire gauge.


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## Ratherbfishin (Mar 1, 2011)

I drained the system and added air to 18 psi (2 psi below the cut in) It seems to be holding pressure. Closed the Faucets and turned it back on. Ran brown water for a bit but has cleared up. I figured I stirred up some sediment when I charged it. So now with the cold water wide open to the tub and kitchen sink I went back down to monitor the gauge. The cut in pressure now reads 25 psi and 40 off. It is taking about 3 to 4 min to get back down to 25psi. How long should it take? Also I rechecked the air valve and now reads 35 psi on the tire gauge. I had it set to 18 when the tank was drained. Is that normal or do I let air out now.

Thanks, Steve


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## WhitePine (Mar 1, 2011)

Don't worry about how long it takes to drop. That will depend on how many taps you have open and what their total flow is. Instead, you should worry about how long it takes to bring the pressure up from the low to the high. It should take at least one minute. The pump needs to run a little while to cool the start winding. If it takes less than a minute, you need a bigger tank. 

To measure the pump time, open a faucet until the pump kicks on. Immediately close the faucet and time the pump. One minute or longer is the rule.

The pressure you are reading is normal. You can only measure the tank pre-charge when the system is off and the tank is drained.


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## Ratherbfishin (Mar 2, 2011)

Thanks a bunch the posts have been very educational as I had none in this subject. I guess time will tell if the charge holds.  It is a Duracell DP-82 tank and seems to me quite large. Does the 82 represent gallons? In the double wide I used to have before  I bought my house was a little blue tank I assume would be 14 gallons. The place had 2 full baths, 2 sinks and great pressure with that little tank. In this house we have 1 full bath and kitchen sink. So why the good pressure with the smaller tank with more potential faucets running in the old place to less pressure with a larger tank and less possible faucets to use. I forgot to mention washers for both places. Also I was trying to locate that nut to turn to increase the cut in pressure but not sure what that is. There is nothing looking like a nut but there are 2 round "thingy's" one on the vertical pipe and one right under a spicket on the horizontal pipe.


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## LLigetfa (Mar 2, 2011)

The pressure switch adjustment will vary by brand and model.  My Square D has two springs.  One is the differential and the other the high cutout.


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## WhitePine (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm not familiar with that brand, so I don't know what the 82 means. Typically, bladder tanks are rated as equivalents to larger conventional tanks. A "36" gallon bladder tank, for example, will be smaller than a conventional 36 gallon tank. while providing equivalent performance. They are also simpler to hook up, since they don't become water logged or require an air control device.


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## Ratherbfishin (Mar 2, 2011)

Ahahh the nut and spring is under the switch cover like was mentioned previously. Thanks, Found em. As of this am pressure was constant and only felt the pump come on once during my shower. Knowing my luck I should just leave well enough alone but I always crave more pressure. I have showered in places before and when getting out thought to my self " wow that was a great shower I feel so refreshed" I want that to be my shower. 

Again thanks for your help and advise 

Steve


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## velvetfoot (Mar 2, 2011)

It might be flow too.  Newer fixtures are low flow by law (I think).
I have the same feeling about the shower at my relatively new place.
On the other hand, maybe it also puts less strain on the well, which in my case is 450' deep and had been hydro-fracted.


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## WhitePine (Mar 2, 2011)

velvetfoot said:
			
		

> It might be flow too.  Newer fixtures are low flow by law (I think).
> I have the same feeling about the shower at my relatively new place.
> On the other hand, maybe it also puts less strain on the well, which in my case is 450' deep and had been hydro-fracted.



I have heard  ;-)  that low flow shower heads sometimes have a reflow problem.    

It's probably just a rumor, though.  hh:


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## emurphy@eclumber.com (Mar 4, 2011)

Sounds like you have got some of this under control. but, for what it is worth.  Your not really suppose to have to "recharge" your pressure tank.  It is Ok to do, but it means you to have a leak.  Usually means you have a pin hole in the bladder. You will be able to use the tank like this until the bladders gets waterlogged (Water on top of the bladder where it doesn't belong).  Or it means your loosing air through a valve somewhere (usually the sniffter valve <-- haha, I can't remeber the name. might be chaffer valve. Air tube type valve anyway.)

A tank with a bladder is a pressure tank.  No bladder is just a holding tank, which gives you more storage. Takes longer for the pressure to drop, longer to build up. How long depends on your pumps ability to pump and you wells ability to produce.

You can increase the pressure consistancy at you fixtures by increasing the diameter on the supply lines (depending on what is there). 3/4" pipe carries twice as much water as 1/2", 1/2" alomost twice as much as 3/8".  Over pressurizing the systems with your pressure switch will obviously create more prussure but can create problems if your not carefull.  If you not sure of the age of your plumbing you may have older valves or other weak spots that will fail quicker with higher pressure. (Think old washing machine hoses).


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## WhitePine (Mar 4, 2011)

murph said:
			
		

> A tank with a bladder is a pressure tank.  No bladder is just a holding tank, which gives you more storage. Takes longer for the pressure to drop, longer to build up. How long depends on your pumps ability to pump and you wells ability to produce.



That is not correct. Closed tanks, be they bladder type, diaphragm type, or conventional are all pressure tanks. The fact that they are designed to hold water at a pressure above atmospheric makes them pressure tanks (or vessels) by definition. All pressure tanks store water to some degree.

A water storage tank, is open to the atmosphere (vented) and requires at a minimum a downstream pump.


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## richg (Mar 5, 2011)

A new tank was definately the right move here. I had the same issue about five years ago and a new tank solved the problem. A plumber told me to use a 40/60 pressure switch.


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## LLigetfa (Mar 6, 2011)

WhitePine said:
			
		

> A water storage tank, is open to the atmosphere (vented) and *requires at a minimum a downstream pump*.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but if said tank is elevated enough, no pump is required.  A 100 foot tall water tower should give you around 40 PSI AGL.


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## WhitePine (Mar 6, 2011)

LLigetfa said:
			
		

> WhitePine said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have friends who use nothing but elevation to get their water pressure. Their tank is high up a hillside, fed by a spring up there. Free water and free water pressure is a good deal.


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## Ratherbfishin (Mar 8, 2011)

So to get back to the original post... Should the tank be replaced or does it have life left to "milk"? Since re-charging the bladder over a week ago the pressure remains constant and showers are much more enjoyable.( by that I mean a more constant pressure) I haven't had the chance to try and adjust the pressure yet to like 30/50. When thinking about it everything that takes air eventually needs it..tires etc.. is this no different?


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## WhitePine (Mar 8, 2011)

You could just watch it and see what happens. No sense spending money if you don't need to, but......... 

Be sure to check the pump's run time when you change the pressures. Might not be a bad idea to do it now. That alone could dictate a new, larger tank. There is no guarantee that the system was installed with a correctly sized tank in the first place.


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## Valveman (Mar 12, 2011)

â€œMy water pump is â€œshort cyclingâ€  from what I have read, the bladder usually goes bad rather to add air. Would you agree?â€
â€œShort cycling isnâ€™t just an annoyance, but will reduce the pumpâ€™s longevity if it isnâ€™t taken care of.â€
â€œRunning less than one minute will not allow the start windings to cool properly.â€
â€œWearing out a pump is more likely from frequent starts than constant running.â€
â€œYour not really suppose to have to â€œrechargeâ€ your pressure tank.  It is Ok to do, but it means you to have a leak.  Usually means you have a pin hole in the bladder.â€
*Cycling causes nearly every problem with conventional pressure tank systems.  Cycling wears out your pump, motor, pressure switch, start capacitors, starting relay, and check valves.  Cycling even destroys the bladder in the pressure tank, as it goes up and down with each cycle, and breaks like bending a wire back and forth.*

â€œonly felt the pump come on once during my showerâ€¦. but I always crave more pressureâ€¦. I have showered in places before and when getting out thought to my self â€ wow that was a great shower I feel so refreshedâ€ I want that to be my shower.â€ 
â€œMy in-laws shower has so much pressure.  It is almost worth the drive to NJ just to use it!â€
*Anyone with a pump system can have better pressure than â€œcity waterâ€.  You lines could be too small, there could be restrictions, or just a bad showerhead.  But if you can tell when your pump comes on or goes off because of the change in shower pressure, then your pump cycling on and off is the main reason you have low shower pressure.*

â€œhe also makes the claim that if you donâ€™t have a CSV, you get unacceptable pressure changes when showering, which is absolute nonsense.â€ â€œStandard systems just plain work.â€
*Sure they work.  But, you have simply learned to live with varying pressure in your shower, because you havenâ€™t experienced a better way.  This is like thinking your own bed is the most comfortable in the world, then lying on a new mattress and having that â€œOMGâ€ feeling.  Once you experience â€œconstant pressureâ€ you will never go back. * 

â€œIâ€™d also be concerned about cooling the pump motor.â€  
â€œThe two negatives that I see are increased power costs to some degree and increased impeller erosion.â€  
â€œFor average household use, Iâ€™m pretty sure the device does not significantly reduce the number of pump starts.â€
*CSV will not cause â€œimpeller erosionâ€, â€œoverheat the motorâ€, and it â€œsignificantly reduces the number of pump startsâ€.   â€œIâ€™d be concernedâ€, â€œnegatives that I seeâ€, and â€œIâ€™m pretty sureâ€, means your just guessing.  Which is how these myths, rumors, or untruths get started.*

â€œBe sure to check the pumpâ€™s run time when you change the pressures. That alone could dictate a new, larger tank. There is no guarantee that the system was installed with a correctly sized tank in the first place.â€
*As Lligetfa said, a larger tank will onlyâ€¦.
â€œstretch out the time factor.  The agony of low pressure is just extended.  A CSV on the other hand, will give you much more time at the higher end with true constant (steady) pressure and less time at the lower end.  The smaller the tank, the less time you suffer through low pressure.â€ *

You saidâ€¦â€The fact is the pump runs longer with the CSV than it would without it.â€  Then you saidâ€¦ â€œThe pump needs to run a little while to cool the start winding.  If it takes less than a minute, you need a bigger tank.â€  
*Wait a minute!  So the CSV causing extended run time is a good thing?  Instead of cycling on and off every minute or two, the CSV will keep the pump running as long as the shower or any faucet is open.  Then it still has to refill or top off the pressure tank at 1 GPM before the pump shuts off.  Why would you need a larger tank?  To confuse you even more, the reduced amps caused by the CSV, means the motor is de-rated, not making as much heat, and doesnâ€™t need as much time or flow to cool.*

â€œHolding back flow does increase the pressure between the well and the CSV and the pump needs to be right-sized with the piping.  This point is not being very well conveyed, probably since they donâ€™t want to talk of the elephant in the room.  The CSV never holds back all of the flow.â€
*No â€œelephant in the roomâ€.  This is exactly what makes a CSV work so well.  Our entire web page is dedicated to this subject.  We give maximum inlet pressures and differential pressures for each valve model.  We have countless articles explaining how to figure backpressure, that it makes the pump work easier, draw fewer amps, and reduces the amp draw.  There is even an animation with a back pressure gauge.  I donâ€™t know how to be more clear.*


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## Valveman (Mar 12, 2011)

â€œAnyway, it seems there has been no independent testing done, which I find telling. If independent testing has been done, and it had determined that there were real merits to the CSV, then Iâ€™m sure the company would be pointing long and loud to those test results. Since they arenâ€™t, I remain skeptical of the deviceâ€™s merits.â€
*How could you get any better testing done than a study by the USDA?*
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/letterseditor_25.html
*Here are a few references from NASA, cities, Engineers, and a video from PBS.*
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/csvapplications_18.html
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/csvapplications_4.html
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/pdf/csvapplications_10.pdf
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/video/pbs_2006-dsl.wmv


 â€œAs I recall, the tank company tests (wish I could find them again) found that there was little difference in the average number of starts between a CSV equipped system and a conventional system.  That makes sense to me as a long time well user.â€
*Amtrols test was set up to make their pressure tanks look superior to any constant pressure system.  Their â€œtestâ€ had no uses of water over 7 minutes, and the conclusions were tainted.  But some of the data was interesting.  They said â€œthe CSV did not significantly reduce cycling over a properly sized tankâ€.  However, the CSV caused 10 cycles per day compared to 19 Per day with a standard tank.  That is almost a 50% reduction in cycling, which I would consider significant.  They shouted the CSV caused the electric bill to double.  But they quietly listed it only went from .508 KWH to 1.072 KWH, and failed to mention that is only 4 pennies per day.* http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/letterseditor_21.html

â€œWhen my well pump does die I plan to install a variable speed unit to address these issues.â€
*Coming from a home owner, this statement tells me you are very confused about how pumps work.  Coming from a pump installer, this statement may mean he is trying to sell the most expensive, shortest lasting trinket he thinks you can afford.  Trying to â€œaddress these issuesâ€ by using a VFD, is like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.  The CSV was designed to replace variable speed pumps or VFDâ€™s, and we have been replacing them everyday since 1993.  There are new VFDâ€™s, but VFDâ€™s are not new.  Why would anyone want to go back to old, complicated, technical, expensive, VFD technology?  The reason VFDâ€™s have been upgraded and made obsolete every 18 months for the last 40 years, is because they still canâ€™t solve the problems.  The problems are laws of physics, which they can never solve.*

â€œSeems like they donâ€™t really like DIYers giving advice.  They only want us asking for advise and then we best not challenge old school pumpmen.â€
*LOL!  I am the one challenging old school pump men, and even engineers.  I donâ€™t post about anything I donâ€™t know for fact.  There are so many misunderstandings and myths circulating about pump systems, I have vowed to help people get the facts.  I learn something new from other people as well.  But very few things about pumps are left to speculation.  As you can see I am very vocal when someone starts giving advice about things they donâ€™t understand.  I am still amazed how many people will just take the advice of someone who was raised in a house with a well.  Especially when they can get advice from someone with over 40 years experience, who designed the product, and guarantees it to work. It is like getting advice on surgery from the parking lot attendant because he works at the hospital, instead of talking to the doctor himself.* 

â€œIMHO, it is a very small price to pay for constant pressure.â€

*Here are a few references that agree with you.  I am lucky to get a few references.  People only come to the Internet or forums when they are having problems.  After they install a CSV, they no longer have problems and rarely come back to the forums.  In this business we say, no news is good news.  Just Google any of your appliances and see read all the complaints.  18 years with very little if any bad news on the Internet about CSVâ€™s is a good thing. * 
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/references_13.html
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/references_6.html
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/references_9.html

â€œSo to get back to the original postâ€¦ Should the tank be replaced or does it have life left to â€œmilkâ€? 
My water pump is â€œshort cyclingâ€  from what I have read, the bladder usually goes bad rather to add air.
I like to enjoy a shower so I want to get this resolved.
but I always crave more pressure. I have showered in places before and when getting out thought to my self â€ wow that was a great shower I feel so refreshedâ€ I want that to be my shower.â€ 
*You might be able to â€œmilkâ€ a little more out of that tank.  When it quits holding air, giving water, or making the water smell bad, you will need to replace it.   You can replace it with a very small tank if used with a CSV, and your pump will no longer short cycle.  You can enjoy shower pressure in you house, better than any of the places you have envied, and all your â€œshort cyclingâ€, busted bladder, and low pressure problems will go away.  The only disclaimer is that your pump must be strong enough to supply the pressure needed by the CSV.*


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## semipro (Mar 12, 2011)

Valveman said:
			
		

> â€œl
> 
> â€œWhen my well pump does die I plan to install a variable speed unit to address these issues.â€
> *Coming from a home owner, this statement tells me you are very confused about how pumps work.  Coming from a pump installer, this statement may mean he is trying to sell the most expensive, shortest lasting trinket he thinks you can afford.  Trying to â€œaddress these issuesâ€ by using a VFD, is like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.  The CSV was designed to replace variable speed pumps or VFDâ€™s, and we have been replacing them everyday since 1993.  There are new VFDâ€™s, but VFDâ€™s are not new.  Why would anyone want to go back to old, complicated, technical, expensive, VFD technology?  The reason VFDâ€™s have been upgraded and made obsolete every 18 months for the last 40 years, is because they still canâ€™t solve the problems.  The problems are laws of physics, which they can never solve.*
> ...



I'm pretty sure I know how a pump works but I'd like to know if I'm mistaken.  I think you'd be preaching to the choir though as I'm one of the seemingly few that does understand that restricting centrifugal pump flow reduces (not increases) power draw at the pump.  

Per your post previous to the one the quote above is from: 

"Cycling causes nearly every problem with conventional pressure tank systems.  Cycling wears out your pump, motor, pressure switch, start capacitors, starting relay, and check valves.  Cycling even destroys the bladder in the pressure tank, as it goes up and down with each cycle, and breaks like bending a wire back and forth."

I agree with this.  Anything you can do to "soft start" the pump or maintain a steady state reduces wear on the system.  Variable speed pumps address these issues while maintaining constant pressure (at least within the specified range of the pump) do they not?  If the CSV can do that, great.  It then becomes a comparison of capital costs, operating costs, and reliability for me.   Before I jump into installing a variable speed pump system I'd do more homework on the CSV and other available technology.  One thing  that makes our application somewhat unique though is that our geothermal system is an open-loop, standing column type system that uses the well and surrounding aquifer as its heat source/sink.  

Andy

Edit: I should mention we're not new to this concept.  We used a Jacuzzi Water Genie on our system for years but it eventually failed.


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## Valveman (Mar 12, 2011)

I meant no disrespect.  I talk to pump engineers everyday who do not fully understand these things.  I have studied nothing but this subject for several decades.  So I do not expect anyone else to easily grasp the intricacies of how pumps function.  

Manufacturers of variable speed drives as well as pumps and motors claim that soft starting will make a pump system last longer.  This is not true.  In reality the Kingsbury thrust bearing in a submersible motor has to be above 1800 RPM to produce the hydroplane effect.  This creates a thin film of water between the thrust pads and plate.  The longer it takes to get to 1800 RPM, the more the thrust pads and plate grind against each other with no lubrication or cooling.

Also, every component in a pump and motor has a mechanical frequency that causes vibration.  At the standard 3450 RPM, every component has been designed to run smoothly.  But when you slowly go from 0 to 3450 RPM, the unit goes through the resonance frequency of every component in the pump and motor.  So at a particular speed the motor shaft vibrates.  Another speed causes the windings to vibrate.  And yet a different speed causes the laminations to vibrate, and so on, and so on.  The vibration of each component only stops when the pump finally gets to full speed.  Which it rarely does with a VFD.

Then I could spend considerable time explaining the damage caused by harmonics, and voltage spikes that are caused by the pulsing DC voltage from a VFD, and other things.  

*â€œIt then becomes a comparison of capital costs, operating costs, and reliability for me.â€*  Then your decision should be a no brainer.  Capital cost of a VFD is much higher than a CSV.  Operating cost (energy cost) is virtually the same between a VFD and a CSV.  The reliability of a pump/motor running with a VFD cannot compare to running on smooth sinusoidal power, spinning at full RPM, with cycling eliminated by a CSV.  

The amount of advertising money spent by companies manufacturing VFDâ€™s should be your first clue.  They couldnâ€™t afford to spend muti-millions of dollars advertising something that would actually make pumps last longer or save you money.  That is just what they want you to think.

The CSV is superior but works very similar to the Jacuzzi Aqua Genie.  Which you said worked *â€œfor years but eventually failedâ€.  *After Franklin bought out Jacuzzi, they discontinued the Aqua Genie and now promote their version of a VFD.  This was not for the benefit of customers, but rather to increase their profit margins.  Why would a company that makes pumps and tanks, promote a product that makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks?  They wouldnâ€™t!!  They only have to spend enough marketing money to convince you that VFDâ€™s save energy, make pumps last longer, etc, etc..  Then you are locked into regularly replacing expensive pumps and VFD equipment.  VFDâ€™s are a â€œperpetual money machineâ€ for the manufacturers, which means they are a â€œmoney pitâ€ for the home owner.

I have an open loop geothermal system myself, and have helped many people who have them.  I can show you a couple of ways to decrease the pumping cost, but none of them include using a VFD.  I should mention that the VFD uses considerable energy itself, the same as any other computer.  This adds to the energy used by the pump/motor when running, and the VFD is still on and using energy even when the pump is off.  Plus the pulsing DC voltage from a VFD makes any motor about 5% less efficient than if running on smooth, standard, sinusoidal, AC power.

I talk to many heat pump owners.  They say it doesnâ€™t matter how much energy the heat pump saves, when they frequently have to replace the pump/motor.   Excessive cycling causes many pumps to fail.  But getting conned into a â€œperpetual money machine€ or VFD cost even more.


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## semipro (Mar 12, 2011)

Valveman said:
			
		

> I meant no disrespect.  I talk to pump engineers everyday who do not fully understand these things.  I have studied nothing but this subject for several decades.  So I do not expect anyone else to easily grasp the intricacies of how pumps function.
> 
> Manufacturers of variable speed drives as well as pumps and motors claim that soft starting will make a pump system last longer.  This is not true.  In reality the Kingsbury thrust bearing in a submersible motor has to be above 1800 RPM to produce the hydroplane effect.  This creates a thin film of water between the thrust pads and plate.  The longer it takes to get to 1800 RPM, the more the thrust pads and plate grind against each other with no lubrication or cooling.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the extensive explanation.  I realize you this is your business so I'll examine what you've said with an appropriate amount of skepticism.  At the same time, I think you make a good case for why not to use a VFD.  I was/am aware of some of the efficiency and electrical noise issues associated with them.  I'm going to learn more about the CSV and will likely PM you to discuss further. 

Thanks.


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## Valveman (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks for the PM.  I would rather reply on the forum if that is OK with you, as maybe there are others who can benefit from your experience.  I understand the skepticism of taking advice from someone who â€œsellsâ€ the product.  This is why I warn against taking advice from the big pump, motor, and VFD companies.  However, I do not sell expensive pumps, motors, or VFDâ€™s.  And if my simple, inexpensive little valve did not do everything I say, I would have been out of business years ago.  I have to explain these things myself, as even my good distributors and dealers would like to keep it a secret, because they like to sell pumps, motors, and expensive VFDâ€™s to the myth-informed.

You are doing very well if your pump lasted 10 years with an open loop geo system.  There is only one way to get any higher efficiency than the pressure tank only system you are currently using.  That would be to dedicate a pump strictly for the heat pump, and run as low a pressure as possible.  

However, I can get very close by using a two pump system.  The well pump can be sized to supply the volume you need for the house and geo system at low pressure, say 20 PSI.  Then a second pump, also takes water from the well pump at 20 PSI, and increases the pressure to the house to 50 PSI or so.  In this way you have the smallest pump possible in the well to supply the Geo system at the lowest pressure possible.  The second pump only runs when the house needs water, which means it only runs a fraction of the time of the well pump.

CSV or VFD, controlling a pump that was designed to produce the volume needed for both the house and Geo system at 50 PSI, will use more energy than cycling the pump on and off into a big pressure tank.  Many times this increase in energy is still less than the cost of a big pressure tank.  Nearly every time this increase in energy is less than the cost of replacing pumps that cycled themselves to death prematurely.  So it is still feasible to use a single pump system.

Circulating water in a standing column well does not lower the water level.  If drawing water for the house lowers the pumping level, a larger pump is needed.  You can actually size a pump for low pressure, to deliver no more than the Geo system needs, and pumping from the static water level.  A small bleed can be used to fill a storage tank, that when full, overflows back to the well or discharge.  A booster pump attached to the storage tank can supply the house with as much volume and pressure required.  In this way the water level of the well does not get lower, the pump supplies the volume needed for the heat pump at low pressure, which allows for the smallest, and most efficient pump to be used in the well.

So there are several ways to control your system.  The later being the most efficient.  The second being the most convenient.  And the first is a compromise between the two.

Anyway you go you need to have a pump that is most efficient at varied flow rates.  Some pumps have a better brake in horsepower than others.  A standard 4â€ Grundfos for example has a fixed stack of impellers.  The thrust bearing in the motor caries the full load from the impellers so, the impellers do not touch anything.  This is in contrast to a Sta-Rite pump with a floating stack of impellers.  With this type pump each impeller pushes down against a diffuser instead of the thrust bearing in the motor.  This causes more drag when the flow is restricted.  So a pump with a fixed stack may drop 50% in amps when restricted, while a floating stack may only reduce by 10%.

As for which CSV to use, these are sized to the pump.  So I would need to know which pump model you have, the pumping and static water level, and the pressure you require.  We have a quick selection chart that gets close.  But when you want the most efficient system, I like to consider all the angles.
Cary


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## LLigetfa (Mar 12, 2011)

Valveman said:
			
		

> â€œSeems like they donâ€™t really like DIYers giving advice.  They only want us asking for advise and then we best not challenge old school pumpmen.â€
> *LOL!  I am the one challenging old school pump men, and even engineers...*


I'm pretty sure you know me well enough to know that I was not directing that remark at you as the moderator on the pump forum.

As for my "elephant in the room" comment, I was not suggesting that you had something to hide.  Yes, I found mention of hold-back pressure but one needs to dig for it.  I'm sure a lot of people wonder at first glance as I did, about the effect of hold-back pressure but the information isn't exactly front and centre.  Yes, there is piping available that has a much higher pressure rating than what a CSV could take it to but it is also possible that people have existing piping with a small margin.  That was my only point, namely that the pump and piping needs to be "right sized".

Anyway, glad you found this thread valveman, and got the oppotunity set some things straight.


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## Valveman (Mar 12, 2011)

I didnâ€™t take it personal.  You make a good point.  I have been told there is so much you really have to dig for everything.  And just because I know right where it is, doesnâ€™t mean it is easy for others to find.  I am in the process of simplifying a few things, and will make sure that is an easy button for that.  Thanks!  

You were doing good!  I didnâ€™t mean to hijack, was just trying to help and got carried away.  I only quoted everyone as a way of grouping the questions together.  I understand the skepticism and took no offense to any of it, and meant no offense back.  They were all good questions and I answered them as best I could.

I am quick to defend my product against misinformation and rumors, as I think any reputable manufacturer should be.

Amtrol (who makes tanks) is the only company who has published any kind of study in 18 years to try and refute my claims, which I find telling.  I know several studies were done.  If any testing had been done that determined there were NO real merits to the CSV, then Iâ€™m sure every pump and VFD company would be pointing long and loud to those test results. Since they arenâ€™t, I remain skeptical as to why.  Maybe itâ€™s hard to defend against the truth?


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## Ratherbfishin (Apr 18, 2012)

Well here we go again...the air I added last year did the trick until now. I did the same thing...cut power, opened a faucet and let the water drain. Then set the tank pressure 2psi below the cut in. But this time nothing has changed with my water pressure. It sucks...so It would appear I definitely need to replace the pressure tank. If you have any specific kinds that stand out better than others please let me know. Also I am interested in changing the pressure switch to a 40/60 combo while I am at it. Currently it is 20/40. Thoughts?  I want more water pressure than I had even when the tank didn't have a problem. I hate getting out of the shower and wondering if all the soap was rinsed off...geesh...

Thanks, Steve


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## Ratherbfishin (Apr 28, 2012)

Well got the shower pressure a bit better...all I did was chit the switch on and off up by the shower head ans walaaa...better pressure. I still want to change the tank and go to a 40/60 switch though. I think the copper pipes can handle it.


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## semipro (Apr 28, 2012)

MEDIC1 said:


> Well got the shower pressure a bit better...all I did was chit the switch on and off up by the shower head ans walaaa...better pressure. I still want to change the tank and go to a 40/60 switch though. I think the copper pipes can handle it.


 
You probably don't have to buy a new switch.  Most are easily adjustable.  The information on how to do it, depending on which type of switch you have, is available many places online.


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## Ratherbfishin (Apr 28, 2012)

I know I can turn the nut to adjust but I'm not sure I could achieve the cut in and off I'm looking for without going to a 40/60.


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## save$ (Apr 28, 2012)

We just went through this last week.  First symptom was a spike in my electric bill.  Then came the pulsing of water pressure noted with showering and flushing.   I went to lowes and got a 30 gallon replacement take, a new switch and a new pressure meter.  My switch was 30/50 so we set the tank at 28.  My son has the switch over done in a litte over two hours.  No leaks! 
I keep checking the smart meter and have noted a daily decrease  in kwh used.  My well pump was installed in 1975 and is the same pump running today.  This is my third time to change the tank.  Putting air in the leaking tank is a temp fix at best.


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## Ratherbfishin (Apr 28, 2012)

Ya I agree


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## Ratherbfishin (Apr 28, 2012)

Your not too far from where I grew up in Brunswick


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## save$ (Apr 28, 2012)

Medic!  I started my career as a medic in the military.  I was in DaNang Vietnam.   lucky to be one able to return home.
If you have some basic skills in plumbing and handling electricity, some tools, and access to the tank, you can do the change out as a dyi project. Just remember to throw the breaker first!   Good luck.   Check out YouTube for some how to  vids.


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