# Building a house, want a gasser, advice needed



## WoodWacker (Mar 9, 2013)

Although a newbie,

I've done a little bit of reading and made a few unofficial decisions. I plan to build a 2200 square foot cape or squished cape with attached 2 car in Central Maine in the summer of 2014. I'm leaning towards Tarm Innova, but not set on it. I'm open to all referrals. I've decided to go with stacked 500 gallon propane tanks, I will build and stratofy them myself. For an expansion tank, I was thinking to use a separate 250 gallon tank with a water/nitrogen interface for expansion. Fill both 500 gallon tanks, and fill the 250 about 20%, use only one port for water entrance(the bottom of the tank). Draw a vacuum and add nitrogen to the top of the 250 for compression gas. I'm worried about getting suspended nitrogen in the system somehow. What do you guys think? Will this work? 

Piggy backed with wall mount propane condensing boiler. Probably boiler-mate for DHW.

This is going to be the house I want to live in forever, so I don't want to skimp hard on things, especially those that my save me money in the long run. 

Is this true that you get more use from your tanks with radiant flooring? I will occupy the house probably all but 2 weeks during the winter. Radiant in the basement, first floor, 2nd floor? Baseboard in the 2nd floor?? Should I heat the garage? This is probably going to be used for actual cars, so I don't really want to heat the hell out of it during the winter, but it might be nice from time to time. A larger offsite garage is in future plans and hope to tap into same system. 

Thanks,
Woody


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## arngnick (Mar 9, 2013)

I have had personal experience with two separate boilers and Irleh 40 and Velolux 50 as well as doing a lot of research and looking at others. I have determined a few characteristics that are a must for me! First I would only consider models that operated under negative draft meaning all the air is pulled through the boiler until it exits the flue. This cuts down on smoke and dust during cleaning. Second would be the ease of lighting since you want to limit the amount of idle time and run flat out as much as possible. Second I would look at how the unit must be cleaned and how accessible the areas are I know on my first unit ash collected in areas that were near impossible to get to, it was a nightmare. On my current one everything is accessible from the front and easily cleaned with a wire brush that is pushed down through the tubes. 
As far as the open expansion tank it will work but a bladder tank will be better and easier to set up.
There are many options for DHW and a boiler mate would be a good option. 
I would also recommend a smart circulator with zone valves to feed your zones(this is something I wish I had)
Most likely banks and insurance companies will require the second system so it is good you already have that in mind. Every room will need some type of heat in it to be counted as living space for appraisal. I love my in floor radiant heat and wish I had it in the second floor as well so in my opinion I would put it everywhere you can, you may be able to get away with more spacing on the second floor since some heat will rise from the first floor. The advantage to radiant heat is that you are able to use a wider temperature range of water from your storage tanks. Hot air exchangers and HWB will require hotter temperatures I would even put full heating coils in the garage even if you do not plan to use it at first; you only have one chance to do it. As far as the future garage you will want to include that in your heat loss calculations so you have enough capacity when you do add it to your system also make sure you have an open zone for it.

I am so impressed with my vedolux 50 because it is so simple and so easy! The one thing that I must watch is that I do not overheat my tanks since my boiler does not have an idle mode, that being said it is not easy to overheat your storage if you pay a little of attention on how much wood you load. I am getting a feel for how much to load very quickly. My wife operates our boiler without any issues. 

Since you are building new my advice is to PLAN AHEAD and try to accommodate any future plans it will save you time, money, and a headache.


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## Fred61 (Mar 9, 2013)

I've built several homes and small commercial buildings. I'm in my seventies and the present roof above my head is the last one. BUT!! If I were building now, the dwelling wouldn't need nor be able to use the output of the smallest wood boiler. It would never pay for itself.

I would take that 10 to 15 thousand bucks and put it into insulation design and engineering and save myself a lifetime of labor, trying to fend off the oil man. That approach also frees you from the next 50 years of maintenance.


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## ihookem (Mar 9, 2013)

If you are goig to live in tis house forever the first thing ya do is get a guy who knows what he is doing when it comes to insulation. Not the guy who says R19 batts in the walls are good. There are guys who insulate, and guys that know what they are going. I learned this after 3 houses I did and 32 years of remodeling. It is hard to even explain the difference between house when done right and done  to code. After it is insulated correctly then the woodboiler is a cinch cause it takes so little to heat a house. Many people put the cart in front of the horse though. Insulating comes the day the masons are done putting in the basement walls. Eample. My basement walls are R10 all the way down to the footings. From grade down 3' I have r 20 on the north side of the house. I didn't think it was enough so after 8 years I studded up the basement walls and insulated them with R 13 batts. It brought the basement temp up 1-2 degrees.  I guess this means the existing insulation was enough. After that make darn sure there is a good line of caulk or glue under the walls just before they are lifted up and nailed to the floor. This is huge, and it's cheap. After that tape walls with good tyvek tape any cracks and but joints in the sheathing in the walls. When putting in windows use foam to insulate them,, not fiberglass. Here is why, eveytime I take a window out it is full of black dust. This means air has been leaking into the house for 30 years. This of the money that could be saved. Just don't over foam. Make sure foam gets way to the back too.This is where air gets in. Then comes the expensive part. Foam the walls with 4" of closed cell foam. Don't go any less. This will be a painfull cost but you are staying in this house for ever. ALso, foam at least 3" in the basement joists and between the rafters. Fill with batt insulation to keep foam from going out past the outside of the walls. Also spray up the roof sheathing a good 4' with foam. This helps insulation value and puts a stop to ice damming. Cellulose insulation in th eatic is good, fiberglass is almost as goo but needs to be R60 min. in a place like Maine.  Windows are ussually good these days but I would go with double hungs so you can put storms on them. You need storms more than many think. Many say ya don't need them. You do.   I know this is a post on what wood boiler to get. I wrote this cause I see it all the time when building. For some reason noone wants to spend one extra cent on insulation but think nothing of a ten thousand dollar granite top up grade or an extra garage for 10k. The top insulation job on your house will cost an extra 5k compared to a fiberglass insulation ( up to code job)  After this go out and guy any gasser your heart derires cause you will hardly need it anyway.


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## arngnick (Mar 9, 2013)

Fred61 and ihookem are 100% correct! I made the same mistake trying to get things done on a tight budget now there is no easy way to improve my home. Insulation is the best money spent for heating you home. There are many good options out there so take advantage of one. (Structural insulated panels, concrete filled foam forms, cavity filled closed cell foam, and others)


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## Fred61 (Mar 9, 2013)

There's been some evidence uncovered as of late that fiberglass looses some insulating capacity over time. The other problem with fiberglass batts is that you have a joint every 14.5 or 22.5 inches. When they're measuring R value they are assuming no joints.

My target would be to heat the living space by baking a pie in the oven. I also dream of a masonary heater.

You could look into a building system like *Winter Panel* in Brattleboro Vermont. There's a whole community of their homes in Keene NH that have been there for more than 20 years.


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## Fred61 (Mar 9, 2013)

I was going to make an addition to ihookem's great receipe and that is to be sure not to skimp on excavating. Backfilling and raising the footings with good washed crushed stone keeps the water away from the foundation and footings. I've observed over the years that homes built in areas consisting sand and gravel are always much warmer and easier to heat.


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## flyingcow (Mar 9, 2013)

minimum r-40 walls r60 ceilings. obvious radiant works  well with storage.


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## ihookem (Mar 9, 2013)

Ya Know Fred61. I never thoght of the stone that way. Also there is something called energy heel trusses that lets ya put in an extra 4" of insulation where the truss meets the top of the wall.


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## pwschiller (Mar 9, 2013)

Hi Woody,

I timber framed my house in Freedom, NH about eight years ago. The frame is wrapped with SIPS (structural insulated panels). We have a southern exposure with a high proportion of windows facing south. Most years the heat doesn't even come on until November, because of the solar gain and the the excellent insulation. Still, we need to provide a substantial amount of heat at times to keep things warm; when it's -10 at night and the wind is blowing, our oil boiler needs to make some heat. Including our basement, my wife and I have about 2800 sf of heated space; we use about 520 gallons of oil per year for heat and DHW combined. It wasn't until I decided to build a workshop this past year that I finally decided to install a wood boiler and use the oil boiler only for backup. I've been focused more on completing the workshop building, so I haven't installed the wood boiler yet, but will well before next heating season.

If you build a very well insulated house and use radiant heat throughout, you may be able to heat it using solar hot water panels. That's something that I never explored, but maybe should have. When it comes to insulating your house vs. whatever source of heat you choose, it makes sense to do a cost/benefit analysis to determine where it is best to spend your money. What I mean is, it may not make sense to put R-60 insulation in the attic if you have R-3 double pane windows; you may be better off spending the extra money on triple pane windows. Or, if you decide to heat with a wood boiler, it may make more sense to not go overboard with extra insulation, triple pane windows, etc, but to save thousands of $ on that and just burn an extra 1/2 cord of wood each year. If you are heating with a fossil fuel or with solar water heat, it may make lots of sense to spend the extra money on insulation either to keep the annual costs down (fossil fuel) or just to make the system feasible (solar).

I would put radiant heat (PEX) tubing in the slab of my garage floor, even if you don't hook it up right away. 

Pete


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## ihookem (Mar 9, 2013)

If I insulated my house " to code" I would use 6 cords instead of 3.5-4 cords. After 25 years that is 50 cords I have to come up with. Just the time lost is worth it plus cost to haul wood.  One thing not talked about is the quiet house it gives you. Sometimes I hear the train or the wind. It has to be very windy though.


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## BoilerMan (Mar 10, 2013)

Think about potato houses, if you in centeral Maine there may still be some there.  When guys build a new one the good farmers have them sprayed on the inside.  This is usually the most expensive part of the whole thing.  A good farmer will tell you they will heat themselves with some potatos in them, they need to vent out the moisture and some heat with it to keep it at 38F.  I built my own home in 2009 100% myself, 3,200 square feet heated.  Air tightness is the #1 priority, if you do that with spray foam, or some type of sheet good and pay attention to EVERY detail or posibility for an air leak as has been said you will be worlds ahead.  Read about building science (we learned alot in the 70s and 80s when things started to tighten up, and what that does to the building envelope.  Think vapor BARRIORS not retarders (hint metal is the only barrior, plastic or any petrolium is only a retarder).  Don't let people tell "oh that place will be too tight" or "you need to let it breathe" with proper building science and correctly applied vapor and moisture control it will breathe in the correct way and wind will not affect your heat load.  I'd use Roxul over fiberglass any day the 30% upcharge is well worth it, once you ues it, you will dispise any fiberglass insulation.  Use blown in cellulose over the Roxul in the attic to fill in all the voids around trusses, and as ihookem said use heel trusses with 16" heels for good ventelation and leaving you plenty of space for that insulation, use some type of rafter-mate so when you blow in you will contain it to the attic and not let it fall to the soffit area. 

Keep in mine that electrical penitrations are one of the biggest air leak areas, spray foam is your friend here.  EVERY house I've worked in had had cold air coming in around all the outlets, I avoided this by breaking code and useing shallow boxes and having my wireing in the hidden airspace behind the drywall.  For what it's worth think low temp heat emitter and then you can go with some type of solar (thick radiant slab works best as storage and emitter) then a small wood stove to make up the difference or a boiler and storage, but as Fred said it may never pay for itself.  Solar orientation is key also, and the best windows you can afford, I have all triple glazed Paridigm out of Portland ME. 

You can spend it now and save for a lifetime, or save now and spend for a lifetime.  And a lifetime is a LOT of money.

TS


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## pwschiller (Mar 10, 2013)

ihookem said:


> If I insulated my house " to code" I would use 6 cords instead of 3.5-4 cords. After 25 years that is 50 cords I have to come up with. Just the time lost is worth it plus cost to haul wood.


Every additional $5000 that gets rolled into a 30 year mortgage at 5% interest amounts to roughly an additional $320 in annual payments. Where I live (which is close to where Woody lives), a cord of green, split hardwood delivered is about $160, so two cords is roughly equal to the cost of spending an extra $5000 up front on your house construction. I realize that doesn't take into account the amount of time that you'll spend stacking the extra wood and moving and loading it into your boiler. Not too many people want to do more of that than they have to, but if they dislike doing that so much, then maybe they should be looking at a pellet boiler or solar.

Does it make sense to spend an extra $5000 up front on construction to save two cords of wood and your extra labor involved? I would say so. Does it make sense to spend an extra $15000 up front to save two cords of wood annually? Each person needs to answer that for themselves.

My other point was that it makes sense to do a heat loss analysis for the projected house and to plug in different R values to see what the return on your additional investment will get you. If you were to upgrade from R-3 double pane windows to R-8 triple pane windows, how much fuel will you save annually? How much more will the triple pane windows cost you up front? If you increase the attic insulation from R-30 to R-50, how much will it save you annually and how much will it add to your mortgage? You may decide that it makes sense for you to make many insulation upgrades beyond what the building codes call for, but it doesn't hurt to do a little cost benefit analysis first.


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## pwschiller (Mar 10, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> Don't let people tell "oh that place will be too tight" or "you need to let it breathe" with proper building science and correctly applied vapor and moisture control it will breathe in the correct way and wind will not affect your heat load.


I've seen 0.33 air exchanges per hour as a recommended minimum for a house to be healthy to live in. It's not an exact science I'm sure. It will depend on what you use for building materials (and how much they outgas), how many people and pets live in the house, what type of cooking you do, etc.

I put a heat recovery ventilator (HRV) in my house when I built it. I keep it running on low year round. It is constantly drawing in fresh air, while extracting approximately 70% of the heat from the outgoing air to heat the incoming air. Even with the HRV running 24/7, we still heat 2800 sf, plus our DHW with about 520 gallons of oil annually, which will translate into about 3-1/2 cords of wood once I get the wood boiler hooked up. I think that the HRV was money well spent.

Pete


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## WoodWacker (Mar 10, 2013)

Thank you for all the good info. I live on a good charge of land mostly hardwoods, it will be an abundant supply of firewood. I enjoy cutting and splitting also, it's a good healthy hobby. I guess my main focus isn't so much efficiency as it is convenience. I want to be able to load her up in the morning and say goodbye for the rest of the day, and of course come home to a warm house. Also, I like the idea of free DHW during summer months. It sounds like radiant heat is the better option for my application.


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## Fred61 (Mar 10, 2013)

That's ok. Plenty of folks have lived with that scenario and it works. Just remember that when you get into your seventies as I am all that wood cutting fun starts to hurt alot more. I know it's hard to imagine but it's true. I was once invincible.
Perhaps the good advice offered above will be of some value to others who read this thread.
Even my house with the cheapest of the cheap materials, but with annual weatherization projects is now very efficient. At bed time it is 70 in my house, when I rise in the morning it's 70 and without even touching my boiler in the morning and after being gone all day, when I return it's still 70 in the house. Every day no matter what the temperature is. I think that beats "loading er up" in the morning. I can't imagine why anyone would want to bypass that opportunity.


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## WoodWacker (Mar 10, 2013)

Don't get me wrong, that is great information and I will consider it in my plans. My focus is to burn wood to heat the home rather than make the home as efficient as possible to not burn as much wood.


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## Bret Chase (Mar 10, 2013)

ihookem said:


> If you are goig to live in tis house forever the first thing ya do is get a guy who knows what he is doing when it comes to insulation. Not the guy who says R19 batts in the walls are good. There are guys who insulate, and guys that know what they are going. I learned this after 3 houses I did and 32 years of remodeling. It is hard to even explain the difference between house when done right and done to code.


 
He's going to have to get it to comply with the MUBEC... R50 min in the ceiling, R21 in the walls, there's a few different ways to insulate the foundation, but in each case it *has* to be fully insulated, or R38 in the floor  There is also a code mandated blower-door test.

There are also some giant PITA specs regarding windows and window installations have to be inspected.

first thing the OP is going to have to do, is log off the computer and drive to the codes office.... particularly with intending to modify propane tanks.... I see many headaches to come.


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## heaterman (Mar 10, 2013)

[quote="Fred61, post: 1402643, member: 8462"*]I've built several homes and small commercial buildings. I'm in my seventies and the present roof above my head is the last one. BUT!! If I were building now, the dwelling wouldn't need nor be able to use the output of the smallest wood boiler. It would never pay for itself.*

*I would take that 10 to 15 thousand bucks and put it into insulation design and engineering and save myself a lifetime of labor, trying to fend off the oil man. That approach also frees you from the next 50 years of maintenance*.[/quote]

The voice of experience rings true

In Europe they are building structure with heat loss down below 4-5 btu/sq ft. When they get to that point they do not use wood because it becomes nearly impossible to keep a wood fueled fire that small without constant attention. They use pellet boilers that can modulate output from only 2 KW up to maybe 6. Pellets have a huge advantage over cordwood when you get into boilers that small because of the ease with which the can modulate.

If you want to go wood, you simply have to have storage capability if your load is under 10-15KW (30-45,000btu)


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## ihookem (Mar 10, 2013)

Woodwacker, us old guys are posting this stuff for good reason. It helps decide what gassifier you need to get. The better insulation the smaller boiler you need. This saves money when buying a boiler. I went with an EKO 25. A small boiler no doubt but that is all I need. It does go hand in hand.  Also, if ya got lots of firewood ya can always sell a little left over to help pay for the insulation. I want to say this again. I see people putting bare minimum into insaltion when they should put in max. You can always go a bit cheaper on cabinet, counters, doors and still have a nice house. Carpet wears out and 15 yrs later ya get something better when the kids are done walking on it just after being in the chicken coup like what happened today.. It is very expensive to go min. on ins. and then upgrade. If you don't go with foam I suggest other somewhat good options. PM me someday  if ya want. For now a  Boiler yoiu are looking at whatever it may be might not be the right size anyway. Remember in Maine R21 in walls with batts is not a true R21, it's about R15. R50 ceiling is still skimping on such a cheap product like cellulose. Mark from AHONA was in Maine last month somewhere by you. He is real good and I think he sells Vgas. He sold me my EKO bu are in financial trouble as of late. Hope this helps.


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## arngnick (Mar 10, 2013)

I just want to reinforce the facts that eveyone is pushing. Even though I am young I have remodeled many houses, two of wich were my own. Insulation is important and must be done right the first time. It is not easy to add in the future. Think about it you will be old someday as will I!


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## Bret Chase (Mar 10, 2013)

ihookem said:


> Remember in Maine R21 in walls with batts is not a true R21, it's about R15.


 
MUBEC requires R21 as a UL listed system... you can't get there and satisfy *this* code with just 6" batts.


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## arngnick (Mar 10, 2013)

Unless you buy the R21 6" batts...

http://www.lowes.com/pd_15639-1722-...List=true&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1&facetInfo=


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## Bret Chase (Mar 10, 2013)

arngnick said:


> Unless you buy the R21 6" batts...
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/pd_15639-1722-EFK004_4294858103__?productId=3014422&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1&pl=1&currentURL=?goToProdList=true&Ns=p_product_avg_rating|1&facetInfo=


 
the code takes into account heat loss through the studs... like I said, you're not getting there with just batts.... the move in this state, under this code is 2x6 walls, batts, and Low-E on the inside face acting as both a reflective barrier and vapor barrier... with or without the air gap.


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## Rory (Mar 10, 2013)

The conductive heat loss through the wall studs gets mentioned a lot.  Why hasn't simply adding an inch of foam board on either the inside or outside of the studs under the sheet rock or siding become standard?  Are there some inherent problems?


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## Floydian (Mar 10, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> like I said, you're not getting there with just batts


 
No doubt about it. 2x6's, 16" o.c. with R21 fiber_crap_ batts and a 20% framing factor is going to come in somewhere less than R15 for the whole wall r value. Regardless of code, this wood be woefully inadequate even in my 5300 heating degree day climate. In central ME, I wouldn't settle for anything less than an R40 whole wall performance-period.

Woody, IMO you need to get an energy consultant involved with your planning.

I highly recommend this site http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/ . Virtually all aspects of high performance building are covered in the blogs, Q&A, etc.

Whether your building the house yourself or hiring it out, there are a lot of things you need to know so you can execute them correctly or so you can make sure your GC executes them correctly. Don't assume he or she will understand these things even if they are an experienced builder.
You will have way too much money in this to not do it right.

Happy research,

Noah


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## Floydian (Mar 10, 2013)

Rory said:


> The conductive heat loss through the wall studs gets mentioned a lot. Why hasn't simply adding an inch of foam board on either the inside or outside of the studs under the sheet rock or siding become standard? Are there some inherent problems?


 
Here you go: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing

Noah


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## Bret Chase (Mar 10, 2013)

Rory said:


> The conductive heat loss through the wall studs gets mentioned a lot. Why hasn't simply adding an inch of foam board on either the inside or outside of the studs under the sheet rock or siding become standard? Are there some inherent problems?


 
the inherent problem is that the foam would not allow the sheathing to do it's job... i.e. act as a shear panel. The use of Low-E (to those unfamiliar, it is two layers of reflective AL foil laminated onto 1/4" closed cell foam) does give you the desired thermal break.

Low-E does make hanging 1/2" rock a PITA however...


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## Bret Chase (Mar 10, 2013)

Floydian said:


> . Regardless of code, this wood be woefully inadequate even in my 5300 heating degree day climate. In central ME, I wouldn't settle for anything less than an R40 whole wall performance-period.


 
Noah, I don't know where you grew up... but I feel a bit of perspective is needed... yes R40 in a wall is great and wonderful.  I live in maine..... in an old farm house built in 1865.... the only insulation in the structure is what I have installed... and it is far from complete... and I have a smoke dragon for heat.  That being said... I am burning less than 3/4 of a cord per month... and I walk around the house barefoot and in shorts.... and that's with a sub-500 stack temp and burning an ash/maple/birch mix....

as it is right now.... all I have left that is ready is locust..... and I struggle to keep the stack "in the green" without simply blasting myself out of the house....


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## 711mhw (Mar 10, 2013)

Floydian said:


> Here you go: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...lating-minimum-thickness-rigid-foam-sheathing
> 
> Noah


 Good stuff! I came across this http://www.buildingscience.com/docu...6-complex-three-dimensional-air-flow-networks the other day, I really think that alot of well intentioned folks are screwing up not fully understand these things once they move away from "traditional" methods. I know I would have on my place if not for dumb luck & I've been "in the trades" for 35 yrs.


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## heaterman (Mar 10, 2013)

Probably the best book I have read on the subject of construction for a cold climate area. Maybe one of the best ever in terms of being easily understood. It'll be the best $40-50 you'll spend if you are building a house.

Pay attention to what he says about forced air ducted heating systems if you get a copy. Furnace/duct systems as commonly installed by "tradesmen" in the industry are designed with one thing in mind. Low cost.

http://www.amazon.com/Builders-Guide-Cold-Climates-Construction/dp/156158374X#reader_156158374X


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## Floydian (Mar 10, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> Noah, I don't know where you grew up... but I feel a bit of perspective is needed...


 
Hey Bret,

Here is where I coming from- Currently I am building a new house for my folks. 2200 sq ft, R15 below grade, R30+ above grade, R60 attic, R5 triple pane windows(high SHGC on south facing glass),
aiming for around 1 ACH/50pa, 5300 HDD climate. Annual calculated heat load of <20 million btus or about the same amount of locust you're burning a month. Or less than $300/yr with mini splits.
Not bad from my perspective

Noah


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## heaterman (Mar 11, 2013)

pwschiller said:


> Every additional $5000 that gets rolled into a 30 year mortgage at 5% interest amounts to roughly an additional $320 in annual payments. Where I live (which is close to where Woody lives), a cord of green, split hardwood delivered is about $160, so two cords is roughly equal to the cost of spending an extra $5000 up front on your house construction. I realize that doesn't take into account the amount of time that you'll spend stacking the extra wood and moving and loading it into your boiler. Not too many people want to do more of that than they have to, but if they dislike doing that so much, then maybe they should be looking at a pellet boiler or solar.
> 
> Does it make sense to spend an extra $5000 up front on construction to save two cords of wood and your extra labor involved? I would say so. Does it make sense to spend an extra $15000 up front to save two cords of wood annually? Each person needs to answer that for themselves.
> 
> My other point was that it makes sense to do a heat loss analysis for the projected house and to plug in different R values to see what the return on your additional investment will get you. If you were to upgrade from R-3 double pane windows to R-8 triple pane windows, how much fuel will you save annually? How much more will the triple pane windows cost you up front? If you increase the attic insulation from R-30 to R-50, how much will it save you annually and how much will it add to your mortgage? You may decide that it makes sense for you to make many insulation upgrades beyond what the building codes call for, but it doesn't hurt to do a little cost benefit analysis first.


 
That of course assumes the cost of fuel is constant in today's dollars which is highly unlikely if you look at the past 15-20.


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## pwschiller (Mar 11, 2013)

heaterman said:


> That of course assumes the cost of fuel is constant in today's dollars which is highly unlikely if you look at the past 15-20.


Absolutely. The 1998-1999 New Hampshire Forest Products Market Report shows split cordwood, delivered going for $80-120, so the price has roughly doubled since then. Many of us, including the OP, have wood lots and we cut and split our own firewood. The amount of labor involved to process the wood won't change (unless you get new equipment), although how we value our time probably will.

I'm not opposed to insulation; my house is probably better insulated than the houses of 95% of the people on this forum. But, what makes sense for one person isn't necessarily the most cost effective solution for another person. The house that Noah is building for his parents is probably perfect for them. For someone like me, who is fairly young (47), owns a woodlot, has a house, a heated workshop and plans on adding a good sized heated greenhouse in a few years, installing a wood boiler may make perfect sense. I estimate that if I had built my workshop to the same insulation and window specs as Noah's parents' house, it would have cost me at least $15K more, and would save me about 1-1/4 cords of wood annually.


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## Karl_northwind (Mar 11, 2013)

I just got done building my own place.  the first and second floor are all done in 6" foam. (sips first floor and room-in attic trusses second floor with sheet and spray foam.)  super tight, super easy to heat.  Hearthstone on the first floor heats the main and second floor just fine on 2-3 loads a day.

my gap was in not insulating the basement enough. especially considering the in-floor heat in the basement.

the numbers I've heard around here (after it was too late) is 30-40-50.  R-30 below grade, R-40 walls, and R-50 ceiling assembly. 
I have lots of hardwoods and enjoy cutting wood, am relatively young and in good shape as well.  there are times when those don't matter though, as there aren't enough hours in the day.  esp when wives and kids and animals come along. 
INSULATE And AIR SEAL the snot out of it.  you will never regret it.  EVER.  then go ahead and get whatever fancy wood boiler setup you would like. but you won't need to, but then you have the choice, not because you have to because you can't afford to heat the place otherwise. 

Eventually, you're going to realize that you can have a nice little airtight stove in the living space, and a pellet burner or whatever downstairs to take care of the overnights or lazy times, and you're done.  you can spend more time doing other crap besides dealing with wood. that $10-15,000 you would have spent on the wood boiler will be more fun to do other things with. 

Second on the Builder's guide to cold climates.

karl


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## kopeck (Mar 11, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> *Think about potato houses*, if you in centeral Maine there may still be some there. When guys build a new one the good farmers have them sprayed on the inside. This is usually the most expensive part of the whole thing. A good farmer will tell you they will heat themselves with some potatos in them, they need to vent out the moisture and some heat with it to keep it at 38F. I built my own home in 2009 100% myself, 3,200 square feet heated. Air tightness is the #1 priority, if you do that with spray foam, or some type of sheet good and pay attention to EVERY detail or posibility for an air leak as has been said you will be worlds ahead. Read about building science (we learned alot in the 70s and 80s when things started to tighten up, and what that does to the building envelope. Think vapor BARRIORS not retarders (hint metal is the only barrior, plastic or any petrolium is only a retarder). Don't let people tell "oh that place will be too tight" or "you need to let it breathe" with proper building science and correctly applied vapor and moisture control it will breathe in the correct way and wind will not affect your heat load. I'd use Roxul over fiberglass any day the 30% upcharge is well worth it, once you ues it, you will dispise any fiberglass insulation. Use blown in cellulose over the Roxul in the attic to fill in all the voids around trusses, and as ihookem said use heel trusses with 16" heels for good ventelation and leaving you plenty of space for that insulation, use some type of rafter-mate so when you blow in you will contain it to the attic and not let it fall to the soffit area.
> 
> Keep in mine that electrical penitrations are one of the biggest air leak areas, spray foam is your friend here. EVERY house I've worked in had had cold air coming in around all the outlets, I avoided this by breaking code and useing shallow boxes and having my wireing in the hidden airspace behind the drywall. For what it's worth think low temp heat emitter and then you can go with some type of solar (thick radiant slab works best as storage and emitter) then a small wood stove to make up the difference or a boiler and storage, but as Fred said it may never pay for itself. Solar orientation is key also, and the best windows you can afford, I have all triple glazed Paridigm out of Portland ME.
> 
> ...


 
Boy I guess we know were you're from. 

Not that this helps since my house is very old construction (1800s) but what I did was put batts in the walls then covered them with 1" of ISO board to get me R-19.5.  Spray foam would have been ideal but it was simply out of my budget at the time.  I'm not sure how ideal this is, the joints were taped on the ISO board to try and keep things tight.  It's worked for me so far and it's what the insulation outfit suggested so I'm guessing they had done it before.  I continuing this method in the rooms I'm working on now.

Regardless, going from no insulation to some was a HUGE upgrade!

K


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 11, 2013)

pwschiller said:


> Absolutely. The 1998-1999 New Hampshire Forest Products Market Report shows split cordwood, delivered going for $80-120, so the price has roughly doubled since then.


 
Adjusted for inflation $120 of 1998 money is about $170 today.

Interestingly a barrel of oil in 1978 was $30 which equals about $110 today. Which is about todays market price. So if history is a guide, over the long term (30-45 years) we'd probably all be better off putting are cash into bonds and paying the oil man.  (if you are buying firewood)


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## Bret Chase (Mar 11, 2013)

Floydian said:


> Hey Bret,
> 
> Here is where I coming from- Currently I am building a new house for my folks. 2200 sq ft, R15 below grade, R30+ above grade, R60 attic, R5 triple pane windows(high SHGC on south facing glass),
> aiming for around 1 ACH/50pa, 5300 HDD climate. Annual calculated heat load of <20 million btus or about the same amount of locust you're burning a month. Or less than $300/yr with mini splits.
> ...


My House costs me about $60 a YEAR to heat...


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## Rory (Mar 11, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> the inherent problem is that the foam would not allow the sheathing to do it's job... i.e. act as a shear panel. The use of Low-E (to those unfamiliar, it is two layers of reflective AL foil laminated onto 1/4" closed cell foam) does give you the desired thermal break.
> 
> Low-E does make hanging 1/2" rock a PITA however...


 
So it's essentially Thermax in 1/4" thickness, then?  Makes sense.  I had only seen the term "Low-E" in reference to windows before.


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## Bret Chase (Mar 11, 2013)

Rory said:


> So it's essentially Thermax in 1/4" thickness, then? Makes sense. I had only seen the term "Low-E" in reference to windows before.


 
http://www.low-e.com/

I have installed it measured in acres.....


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## Karl_northwind (Mar 12, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> My House costs me about $60 a YEAR to heat...


 
And how many hours cutting splitting and stacking and burning wood? I'm going to assume that $60 per year is not LP, is that $60 worth of gas for the chainsaw, splitter, and tractor? 

a BTU not needed is the first step, then you have the luxury of how you want to acquire those BTUs.  I read a recent article in Fine Homebuilding about a Passivhaus in Maine, that they eliminated the whole central heating system because it wasn't needed.  they used, as I recall, 3 baseboard electric heaters.  Now, they didn't list the energy consumption, but the point is, they eliminated a $10,000-15,000 heating system for that 1200SF house.  I think that'd more than pay for any additional insulation and air sealing.
karl


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## Karl_northwind (Mar 12, 2013)

mikefrommaine said:


> Adjusted for inflation $120 of 1998 money is about $170 today.
> 
> Interestingly a barrel of oil in 1978 was $30 which equals about $110 today. Which is about todays market price. So if history is a guide, over the long term (30-45 years) we'd probably all be better off putting are cash into bonds and paying the oil man. (if you are buying firewood)


 
If you think the next 30 years will look like the last 30, you might be dissapointed.  I don't know about you, but I expect to be around for another 50, and don't expect anything (especially commodities) to be predictable and stable.


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## heaterman (Mar 13, 2013)

A recurring theme I hear from people who have taken the less insulation/more wood approach is that they failed to consider the amount of time involved. Many of them, after spending a decade or so with an inefficient wood burner and a house with marginal to normal levels of insulation, have discovered that they would much rather have the 200-300 manhours they spend every year doing the cut/haul/split/stack/haul/load routine and wish they had taken a different approach toward their heating bills/


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## pwschiller (Mar 13, 2013)

heaterman said:


> A recurring theme I hear from people who have taken the less insulation/more wood approach is that they failed to consider the amount of time involved. Many of them, after spending a decade or so with an inefficient wood burner and a house with marginal to normal levels of insulation, have discovered that they would much rather have the 200-300 manhours they spend every year doing the cut/haul/split/stack/haul/load routine and wish they had taken a different approach toward their heating bills/


This whole thread started out with someone who is planning on building a new 2200 sf house and heating it with a gasification boiler. Many figures have been thrown around regarding insulation and energy savings, but you have taken exaggeration to a whole new level. 200-300 manhours? That's 5 to 7-1/2 40 hour work weeks doing nothing but cutting/splitting/stacking/loading wood. Maybe that applies to some enormous farm you've seen, but it doesn't apply to Woody (the OP), me, or probably anyone else who has replied to this thread.

If someone wants to loan me the $15000 it would take to to insulate my new workshop to the specs that Noah was describing for his parents house, I'll send you (and your heirs) a check every year for what it would cost me locally to purchase the extra 1-1/4 cords of wood I would burn in lieu of those upgrades.


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## Bret Chase (Mar 13, 2013)

I can process a year's worth of wood in less than 30 hours..... depending on how much beer is involved during the spitting/stacking process....


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## heaterman (Mar 13, 2013)

pwschiller said:


> This whole thread started out with someone who is planning on building a new 2200 sf house and heating it with a gasification boiler. Many figures have been thrown around regarding insulation and energy savings, but you have taken exaggeration to a whole new level. 200-300 manhours? That's 5 to 7-1/2 40 hour work weeks doing nothing but cutting/splitting/stacking/loading wood. Maybe that applies to some enormous farm you've seen, but it doesn't apply to Woody (the OP), me, or probably anyone else who has replied to this thread.
> 
> If someone wants to loan me the $15000 it would take to to insulate my new workshop to the specs that Noah was describing for his parents house, I'll send you (and your heirs) a check every year for what it would cost me locally to purchase the extra 1-1/4 cords of wood I would burn in lieu of those upgrades.


 
I'm talking about the total hours per year a person invests in the entire heating with wood process. What you do every day during the winter. Ash disposal etc etc. Add them up. 200-300 is a lot more accurate than 30.

The older i get the more I realize that time is the most valuable commodity each of us have. I wish I had all the hours back i spent cutting/burning firewood instead of being able to spend that time with my wife and kids. The $$ value pales by comparison.

All I am saying in terms of advice not only to this guy but everyone here is to honestly consider ALL the factors and angles of wood burning before you take the plunge. Bear in mind that this advice comes from a guy who makes most of his income installing these things.


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## Bret Chase (Mar 13, 2013)

dumping ash takes me 5 minutes every 2 weeks...

Wood processing in my house is done as a family, just as was done when I was a kid with my parents and siblings...

In my situation, there is NO comparison between heating with wood and paying the oilman... heating with wood.... my woods get properly managed... my kids learn a work ethic.... and the biggest one... My kids are running around in shorts in a WARM house! AND... I have enough money to actually buy food.

When I was beholden to the oilman.... we froze and pretty much starved.

Long story short.... I don't give half a flying **** about R40 minimums in the walls.... *I* am warm... with minimal effort on my part.


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## heaterman (Mar 13, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> dumping ash takes me 5 minutes every 2 weeks...
> 
> Wood processing in my house is done as a family, just as was done when I was a kid with my parents and siblings...
> 
> ...


 
Hey  Bret, I'm on your side here buddy. The oilman does not belong in the equation. The choice for the OP is spend $$ for good insulation or spend extra time for burning more wood. Either way the object is to give the oil or LP man a happy wave as he drives past your house.


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## Bret Chase (Mar 13, 2013)

heaterman said:


> Hey Bret, I'm on your side here buddy. The oilman does not belong in the equation. The choice for the OP is spend $$ for good insulation or spend extra time for burning more wood. Either way the object is to give the oil or LP man a happy wave as he drives past your house.


 
In my case... my nearly 150 year old house is getting Greenguard and Leeds certified insulation.... as I gut each room and start over.  I also get this insulation for free was it is waste from work... and they don't need to pay to dispose of it.... win-win for both of us.

My issue with a lot of this "green" stuff... it just doesn't work from a cost/benefit perspective... spend $15k to save $300/yr..... that's a 50 year payback... if you're talking foam in place.... it quickly becomes a 100-150 year payback...

In my professional life... I have been bludgeoned to death with LEEDS... and watching costs to the owner increasing at the square of the return...


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## Rory (Mar 13, 2013)

Interesting to hear from the folks who feel they're aging out of the wood equation.  My father's 84 and cutting and splitting is his favorite pastime.  Different strokes...


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## heaterman (Mar 13, 2013)

With 13 grandkids living within 3 miles of my home there is no shortage of extra curricular activities in which to participate. 

You are correct in saying there are different strokes. If I had little else to do, cutting wood is a good wholesome past time and one I enjoyed when I did it.

I'm burning wood again but in a different form. I have a pellet boiler running my house that takes a grand total of about 3-5 minutes per week of my time.


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## ihookem (Mar 14, 2013)

Four years ago I spent 7k on the best insulation job a guy could get on the same size house OP is building. I don't think it will cost him 15k. Not even close. I did have to pay cause I don't have a foam truck. Fiberglass insulation a   guy can do himself but I wouldn't use batts unless they were free.  For a bit more than batts in the wall a guy can blow in cellulose for a way better job. I did this on my first house and was good. I built the same house on the same foundation and can tell ya that foam is much better than blown in cellulose in the walls, and cellulose is much better than batt ins.


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## pwschiller (Mar 14, 2013)

ihookem said:


> Four years ago I spent 7k on the best insulation job a guy could get on the same size house OP is building. I don't think it will cost him 15k. Not even close. I did have to pay cause I don't have a foam truck. Fiberglass insulation a guy can do himself but I wouldn't use batts unless they were free. For a bit more than batts in the wall a guy can blow in cellulose for a way better job. I did this on my first house and was good. I built the same house on the same foundation and can tell ya that foam is much better than blown in cellulose in the walls, and cellulose is much better than batt ins.


Below is what Noah described, again:


Floydian said:


> Hey Bret,
> Here is where I coming from- Currently I am building a new house for my folks. 2200 sq ft, R15 below grade, R30+ above grade, R60 attic, R5 triple pane windows(high SHGC on south facing glass),
> aiming for around 1 ACH/50pa, 5300 HDD climate. Annual calculated heat load of <20 million btus...


ihookem, you don't seem to go into much detail other than to say "... the best insulation job a guy could get..." Just so we are comparing apples to apples, is your house around 2200 sf of heated space?

How did you insulate your walls to an effective R30+? Are you saying that you had 2x6 walls spray foamed for that? You would either have to do that, stick frame with 2x10's and use batt insulation, use R32 SIPS, use ICFs (like Arxx), or build standard 2x6 walls with batts and then wrap them with another 3" of XPS foam sheathing. There may be other approaches, but none of them are cheap. And, you also have R60 in your attic, R15 foam below grade and R5 triple pane windows? You're saying that all of those upgrades over standard "to code" construction only cost you $7000.

I know that for my 1600 sf workshop, all of those upgrades would have cost me around $15K. That would have precluded me from using the twelve 3'0" x 5'6" double pane Pella windows that I got on closeout from Lowes, including screens, for only $143 each. The used full light Thermatru doors I got through Craigs List wouldn't meet that standard. The extra XPS sheathing to take my basement walls from R7.5 to R15 isn't cheap. I hate working with fiberglass and I dislike that it can be a great medium for growing mold, but I was on a fiberglass kind of budget. The walls have R19 with kraft paper and the attic has anywhere from R38 to R49 in it; all of that fiberglass cost me under $1100. Adding extra insulation to the attic is fairly cheap and easy. Upgrading walls to R30+ is not.

Also, is using cellulose in walls recommended for new construction? It's a great product for attics, but I have heard concerns about it settling in wall cavities, so you end up with no insulation at the tops of your walls.

Edit: There are some people who build a timberframe and then insulate it with straw bales covered with earthen plaster. You could build R30+ walls that way. It can be a great healthy, green building option, but requires lots of work on the part of the homeowner/builder and probably their friends. You don't see it much in the northeast because of all the precipitation we get; it's a better option in a dry climate.

Pete


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## mark123 (Mar 14, 2013)

When I built my house 6 years ago I wanted to make the whole wood things as easy as possible. I built it with a walk out basement with a garage door to the boiler /wood room and that room is as air tight as possible to eliminate the smoke, dirt etc.. from entering the house. I used exterior door with weather stripping from the boiler room to family room. I installed a woodgun E-180 with built in oil back-up and so far am happy with it. I heat 4000sf and all domestic water all year round with 8 cord of maple and 2-3 cord softwood for the off season.




WoodWacker said:


> Although a newbie,
> 
> I've done a little bit of reading and made a few unofficial decisions. I plan to build a 2200 square foot cape or squished cape with attached 2 car in Central Maine in the summer of 2014. I'm leaning towards Tarm Innova, but not set on it. I'm open to all referrals. I've decided to go with stacked 500 gallon propane tanks, I will build and stratofy them myself. For an expansion tank, I was thinking to use a separate 250 gallon tank with a water/nitrogen interface for expansion. Fill both 500 gallon tanks, and fill the 250 about 20%, use only one port for water entrance(the bottom of the tank). Draw a vacuum and add nitrogen to the top of the 250 for compression gas. I'm worried about getting suspended nitrogen in the system somehow. What do you guys think? Will this work?
> 
> ...


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## ihookem (Mar 14, 2013)

PWSHILLER, yes my house is 2200 sq.ft/ 9ft walls. I insulated with 4" min. closed cell 1/2" osb and tyvek, with brick exterior. Remember, there is 1"-1 1/2" dead are space between the foam and drywall. The air can't excape. This adds R value. The 4" foam is 28 + R3 air space+ R 2 brick I don't count osb or drywall but that does count as another R 2. I believe I am @ R33. The windows are double pain with storms. I don't know what this makes it but it is very good. I have R10 foam(2") outside against the block wall and studs with R11 inside. This should be R22. The basement is very draft free and nice even @ 60-61 degrees ( note: good insulation will make 60 degrees feel several dgrees warmer) The basement joists are 3" foam. The 8" energy heel trusses are foamed 3" min. above walls and foamed 4' up the bottom of sheathing under shingles. I put in 22" minimum cellulose in the attic, foamed and taped around all the can lights. This cost me 7k four years ago. I don't think I could do much more.The basement insulation I did myself so it was not in the 7 k price.I put the garage on the north side of the house to shelter our horrendous wind. This makes a lot of my northern outside walls against the garage. I might even insulate the garage too. Most my windows are south or west facing for sunshine. Also, yes cellulose is a good idea. I had it in my first house walls ( on the same lot) It is called dense pack . What is done is thick plastic is staples on inside of studs. Then a roof stapler is used to staple the plastic with string inside the plastic for strength about 1/2" -1" away from where the drywall is screwed on to. At this point the plastic is very tight. Then cut a hole about 6' up about 3" wide. The blower will blow it in like crazy. As it's blowing you hit the plastic between studs. This packs it in very well. There is no way for it to settle when this dense. I tore the house down when it was 4 years old due to a fire. I opened up several garage walls that were saved. The cellulose was packed solid after 4 years. I bagged them and put them in the new houses attic. Hope this helps. Again, the new house is much easier on the heat load and the only difference is the foam and an extra 6" in the attic. Everything else is the same. My old house calc was 64k @-10 and that seemed high . My new house was not rated for foam cause I changed my mind while building so I don't know the difference. I figure  I am at 25k btu @ -10F. or 11 btu's per Sq. ft. @ -10F. Not bad.


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## Floydian (Mar 16, 2013)

Heaterman, Pete and Ihookem- I think you all make some good points here.

Some things that stand out to me-

Unfortunately a 2x6 wall with 2 lb CC SPF is not going perform as an R33 wall. The thermal bridging of a 20% framing factor is going to bring the whole wall R value down significantly. And a 25% framing factor is more likely. The biggest advantage of foaming between studs is the air sealing and that is some expensive air sealing. Here is a much better explanation than I can give:
http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com...o-help/26996/maximum-insulation-thinnest-wall (post #5 in particular)
Now, a few inches of continuous insulation outside of the sheathing, with lower cost cavity insulation (cellulose is ideal for its cost and moisture buffering capacity) can give a much better bang for the buck and achieve a whole wall R value of 30+ depending on the material selected. On my folks house I have used reclaimed commercial roofing insulation(polyiso) from insulationdepot.com. This material cost us .65 $/ft for 2.5"(R15) delivered.

Now lets look at some numbers. Ihookem figures 25k btus at a design temp of -10. Using the degree day method for estimating annual heating energy shows he would need about 33MM btus/yr+ DHW(I'll guess 10MM btus for DHW) so 43MM btus/yr and he is burning 3.5 to 4 cords a year. I've got to think his EKO 25 is getting more than 11 to 12MM btus out of a cord of wood, even without storage, but it all depends. I'd guess his heat load is more like 40k btus at design temp and this would mean he would need about 50MM btus/yr+10MM btus for DHW. Seems more realistic given the 3.5 to 4 cords he is burning. Not bad numbers at all though he mentions in his sig that the $9400 he has into his EKO install is "still too much$" and I tend to agree. For my folks house I am putting that kind of "extra" money into the enclosure to get the heat load as low as reasonably possible so they can heat the house with a wood stove and a cord or so of mixed hardwood.

Every situation is different. And I understand heating multiple buildings gets tricky, and gassers+storage and low temp emitters are a great but expensive way to do the job. Another option is to build super insulated, reasonably air tight houses with quality windows that don't need the kind of heat distribution systems to achieve comfort that "to code" houses need. And the bonus is minimal effort/expense to be comfy.

With new construction, you basically get to pick how much energy you want to use for many years to come, as well as future generations. That is why I recommended an energy consultant to the OP.
Eliminate the guess work or just wing it, either way we all get to live with our decisions, as it should be.

Noah


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## BoilerMan (Mar 17, 2013)

The numbers people throw around here are all over the place.  Bret, you get free insulation from work, when I built my house I bought a retailer's entire stock of Dow Tuff-R (thremax, celotex) 1.5" for $13.50 a sheet.  Needless to say, in my opinion as Noah said spray foam has it's place but is not the be all end all for home construction as it fail to address the thermal bridging through the SPF studs.  One can either build a double wall and avoid the direct stud contact, or use a sheet good on the inside to stop the thermal bridging, this was what I did.  If I had not landed the deal I did and had the capital to do so, I'd have gone the double wall and used Roxul, or cellulose.

To the OP,
 Consider all things, a cool house in the summer w/o A.C., and less wood to cut in the winter, if you want a gasser, which is much more efficient, why not build a house that goes with the efficient appliance you are going to spend some coin on.  My wife and I just had our first baby, and I'm glad I don't have to spend nearly as much time with the wood as I did before the Gasser, and the cool house in the summer is a bonus. 

Bottom line it's your choice in the end, and there are some things that you can only do once in the construction of your house, trust me I know, it's now or never witht he design and insulation part, applinaces and the like can be changed, the building envelope is what it is, and is very costly to upgrade after all the drywall is up and finished, as others on here with old houses have said.  EVERYONE, and i mean EVERYONE told me that I was going way overboard when I built my house, and now I can afford to heat it, and it's comfortable year round for about $5K extra up front and alot of time during the detailing, but in the big picture, it's only once, and my family and I will, Lord willing, have a lifetime to enjoy that extra 5K and about a week all said and done in the beginning. 

TS


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## Bret Chase (Mar 17, 2013)

Taylor Sutherland said:


> when I built my house I bought a retailer's entire stock of Dow Tuff-R (thremax, celotex) 1.5" for $13.50 a sheet.
> TS


 
1.5" tuff-R for $13.50????? that is the steal of the century!

Spray foam is all well and good for brand new construction... but it is still stupidly expensive in my area.  In the past 24 years of doing commercial construction... I have only come across it barely a handful of times, all in refrigerated buildings.  Foam in place makes any future work on the building a nightmare.  You also end up either running all wiring in conduit... or just end up plain screwed if you want to change anything... ever.

In our industrial projects... there's been a big increase in SIP's...  with the exception of the ones who have to shed a lot of process heat...  With wood structured commercial... there's been an up tick in densepack cellulose. Most currently are going with the fiberglass/Low-E approach in the walls.

As I have said before, the code we've had to build under since '11 requires R50 in the ceiling, R23 in the walls and a blower door test.  *Not* being "tight" really isn't an option for us...


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## BoilerMan (Mar 17, 2013)

I've worked in the onstruction feild as well on and off in the past few years, and I know what you mean by foam and then there are no options for anything.  Thats why I'm advocating sheet good foam, spray foam has it's place like rim joist areas or stone foundations.  It is really expensive and makes a huge mess when things have to be taken apart.

TS


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## BoilerMan (Mar 17, 2013)

Bret Chase said:


> 1.5" tuff-R for $13.50????? that is the steal of the century!
> 
> Spray foam is all well and good for brand new construction... but it is still stupidly expensive in my area. In the past 24 years of doing commercial construction... I have only come across it barely a handful of times, all in refrigerated buildings. Foam in place makes any future work on the building a nightmare. You also end up either running all wiring in conduit... or just end up plain screwed if you want to change anything... ever.
> 
> ...


It was from MPG (Maine Potato Growers CoOp) when they were getting out of the building materials part of their business. I split the inventory with my FIL who has many apartments and the like so he wanted the thinner stuff. I bought 2" for the north wall at $25 per sheet.

TS


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