# I hate my Napoleon 1450... suggestions for replacement



## scooby074 (Dec 5, 2011)

Basically like the title says... I have a 1450 and hate it.

While it should have ample size to heat my 1700sqft ranch style  here in NS.. it fails miserably. The house is decently insulated, new windows and doors, climate here doesnt get that cold (-10-20*C max).  Its not even cold here yet (currently +3.5*C) burning dry wood and i still cant get the living room above 15*C. with the stovepipe thermo at 350*... On top of all that i burned about 6 cord last year. I got a friend with a larger, split entry that has a Pacific Energy Spectrum that heats his whole house on 3.5 cord a year.  Thats a more efficient stove if you ask me

Then there are the overall quality issues. Paint is rusting, broken firebrick and needed new baffles.

So what now? I based my purchase on reading reviews here on Hearth, But I realize i cheaped out and should have bought a better /  bigger stove but im stuck. Do i try to sell it? Whats a fair value?

What would be a good "premium" stove? This time im  going big.

Im thinking Pacific's summit or Osburn 2400 or maybe even the massive Hearthstone Equinox... Although im not 100% on hearthstone ... my EXPENSIVE hearthstone steamer cracked and although it was replaced under warranty, im a bit leery.

Top load would be nice, but about the only top load i know is the VC stoves... and im  not sure if they would give me the heat i need.


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## begreen (Dec 5, 2011)

Just make sure that this is the stove and not the wood, the house or perhaps, the installation. Paint rusting, broken firebrick and new baffles on a new stove sounds like a rough life and not necessarily the stove's fault.


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## castlegates (Dec 5, 2011)

I am forever a fan of DS machines! I got an energymax 110. 4 pieces run me 8-10 hours keeping it about 80 upstairs at freezing outside. We often open the windows just because.

THat's the most efficient machine I've seen. It can burn coal, too if you feel like it; 1 inch thick shaker grates are nice for repeated wood burns getting the ash down below. The tray takes a few gallons worth (just a guess). I empty that once a week. It reburns wood smoke (you can watch it; amazing site) and it's one of the rare birds that does BOTH coal really well AND wood really well. My only complaint is the viewing glass could be bigger and they could have made it all pretty looking (but the Amish have never been into fancy, just function). I've had many stoves and inserts and this blows them all away. I have 6 cords of wood and I should be burning a lot more than I thought I'd need at this slow burn rate! It's got knob in the back that automatically opens a bit more as it cools down, closes as it heats up how you adjust it so you've got a constant heat. 

With this beast, I wouldn't go much larget than the max 110. It's an efficient beast and I love it!


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## NordicSplitter (Dec 5, 2011)

Mt Jotul F600 is a beast. Loaded it up last night around 8:30pm with 4 splits and right now.(5:21am est)...Living room is at 78F, Upstairs is at 74F and far Family room is at 72F. This has been the norm for me so far. House size about 2200sq ft. All brick split level ranch. Not even using my best wood yet(Oak, Black Locust & Apple) just been using maple and ash so far. Remember..you can always build a smaller fire in a big stove but never a bigger fire in a small one....Oh ya..cost........Stove itself...$2300..Install with all the goodies...$2400.. Also got the blower put on for $279. If I wanted too I could start it up again before I head to work shortly, nice bed of coals left. Best of Luck.


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## kingquad (Dec 5, 2011)

Please give an accurate description of your wood, setup, and how you run the stove.  What are your stove top temps?  Something doesn't add up.  Also, the equinox is WAY to big for your house.  Mansfield would be a good choice though.


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## Backwoods Savage (Dec 5, 2011)

For sure I would first look at the fuel. Please tell us more. What type of wood is it? When was it cut? When was it split? How was the wood stacked after being split? On the stove, that 350 flue temperature is not too bad but only tells part of the story. My bet is that it is the fuel and replacing that is much less costly than a new stove.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 5, 2011)

scooby074 said:
			
		

> Basically like the title says... I have a 1450 and hate it.
> 
> While it should have ample size to heat my 1700sqft ranch style  here in NS.. it fails miserably. The house is decently insulated, new windows and doors, climate here doesnt get that cold (-10-20*C max).  Its not even cold here yet (currently +3.5*C) burning dry wood and i still cant get the living room above 15*C. with the stovepipe thermo at 350*... On top of all that i burned about 6 cord last year. I got a friend with a larger, split entry that has a Pacific Energy Spectrum that heats his whole house on 3.5 cord a year.  Thats a more efficient stove if you ask me
> 
> ...




Seems like you aren't running that stove correctly. I agree with the others. The fuel seems to be in question

If you were burning that stove hard you would have a higher stove pipe temp unless this is a double wall pipe. 6 cords of wood in a winter seems like a lot considering I could only burn 5.5 cords out of the inefficient Vigilant when it was the only stove. I don't think I could burn 6 cords in a winter in the Heritage (same size stove) if I tried.

What are the stove top temps you are seeing? It can't be much if the room it is in only gets to 59Â°... or you are missing a roof on your house.


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## scooby074 (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi guys, Sorry for the delay. 

Ill try and answer a few questions about the current setup.

This years wood i mixed hardwood, probably 80% hard maple. 10% oak. 10% birch and other mixed. It was cut 1.5-2 years ago. Then cut and split 4-6 months ago. Its split in 2-4" pieces.  Its quite dry, starts well and most pieces have no sizzle. Its staclked in individual rows, on rows of pallets, 2 rows of wood / pallet. Covered with tarps unless they blow off :D

Quality of the stove :
I wouldnt say it had a hard life. Its only about 2 years old. The baffles were replaced 3/4 through the first year. The originals were ~1/2" thick. The redesigned new ones are probably 3/4-1" thick and have no issues. The paint problems came after i had a leaky selkirk (famous seam leakage issue). It can be fixed with sandpaper and new paint, but i wonder about the overall quality if a bit of water can cause this issue. Next stove will likely be enamel.


DS stoves: 
i had a look and i cant find any reps locally. sounds like an interesting product. I did find some discussion that it was not approved. If thats the case its a no-go as far as my insurance.

Jotul f600
Nice Stove Love the top load. Its on the list.. IIRC i looked at jotul before i bought mine and the price was no where near that... I seem to remember it being over $3k. Dealer is over 2 hr away but im going to go in next time im by. If its $2400.. it could very well be mine.

Setup:
I havent checked stove top temps lately. My thermo is packed away somewhere. Ill have to find it. Wood is described above. Flue is 6" selkirk. Firing consists of getting the stove up to about 450*+ then i turn the damper down to try and keep the stove in the clean burn range.  Ill re-load as required. Usually i dont open the damper up when re-loading. Once lit, the stove is never really shut off, there are always coals present, unless im going to clean it.

Temps:
I have a roof last time i checked :D. Those low 15* temps are worse case scenarios when the outside temp is colder.


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## Nonprophet (Dec 9, 2011)

scooby074 said:
			
		

> Hi guys, Sorry for the delay.
> 
> Ill try and answer a few questions about the current setup.
> 
> This years wood i mixed hardwood, probably 80% hard maple. 10% oak. 10% birch and other mixed. It was cut 1.5-2 years ago. Then cut and split 4-6 months ago. Its split in 2-4" pieces.  Its quite dry, starts well and most pieces have no sizzle. Its staclked in individual rows, on rows of pallets, 2 rows of wood / pallet. Covered with tarps unless they blow off :D



I'd say that's the biggest part of your problem right there--your wood is likely not dry enough. Any wood, especially hardwood, needs to cut, split and stacked for at least a full year to really be dry enough for these newer EPA stoves. 2 years C,S, and S is even better. Many of us are burning wood that has been seasoned 3 years or more. The short length of time that the wood has been split and stacked, coupled with the fact that some pieces "sizzle" and that your getting poor performance from you stove all point to your wood not being dry enough.

One easy way to verify this is to buy a moisture meter. You can get them at Harbor Freight and other places for $12 or so. To be ready to burn well, your wood should be below 20% moisture, my guess is that yours is probably in the 25-28% range and that's going to cause you problems.

NP


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## scooby074 (Dec 9, 2011)

Nonprophet said:
			
		

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I agree that moisture COULD be an issue. And i do have some wet wood in there occasionally no doubt. No HF's here so a moisture metre will have to wait. Cheapest metre i can find is $60.   I can say that most wood is "light" by weight.. which is an unscientific method i know.


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 9, 2011)

Again, you have not told use the temps you are running the stove. If you aren't running this stove correctly, a new stove will not solve the problem. If you can't get your living room above 59 degrees in an average size home, there is an issue that is not being mentioned.


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## Nonprophet (Dec 9, 2011)

scooby074 said:
			
		

> I agree that moisture COULD be an issue. And i do have some wet wood in there occasionally no doubt. No HF's here so a moisture metre will have to wait. Cheapest metre i can find is $60.   I can say that most wood is "light" by weight.. which is an unscientific method i know.



You can order from HF online, and also check Amazon and Ebay. You can get a pretty darned nice MM for $25 shipped, and trust me, it will pay for itself the first few times you use it. Like others have said, getting a new stove almost certainly isn't going to solve the problem. Would you rather spend $25 on a MM, or, a couple thousand on a new stove--and then still have the same problem?

Your choice.....but we've all been there before with wood that just isn't dry enough.....

NP


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## scooby074 (Dec 10, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

> Again, you have not told use the temps you are running the stove. If you aren't running this stove correctly, a new stove will not solve the problem. If you can't get your living room above 59 degrees in an average size home, there is an issue that is not being mentioned.



dug out the thermo. Stove was relit at when i got home. Stove has been running for about 1.5 hours.

Flue temps 325*

Stove top temp 530*

Stove Damper at approx 1/4

Stove blower at 80%


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## BrowningBAR (Dec 10, 2011)

scooby074 said:
			
		

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How drafty is your home? A 2.25 cu ft stove should be able to get that living room above 59 degrees.


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## Bub381 (Dec 10, 2011)

if that stove tops at 530 and you're still cold,you're losing heat somewhere.1/4 closed though and this Rangeley would prob be around 700 or better.Especially with soft wood,i couldn't run it at the temps that would cause.WOW!


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## BrotherBart (Dec 10, 2011)

Noticed you mention top loading a F600. Won't happen. It isn't a top loader. A long time ago it was. Not anymore.


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## scooby074 (Dec 11, 2011)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Noticed you mention top loading a F600. Won't happen. It isn't a top loader. A long time ago it was. Not anymore.



oh? too bad then. i checked jotuls website and they still show it in the brochure. i still like the stove. just not quite as much without it


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## scooby074 (Dec 11, 2011)

cold here today so i built a bigger fire to get temps.

stove pipe 350-400

stovetop  610

damper 1/2

room temp 20-21*c measured on an inside wall with infrared thermo


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## Nonprophet (Dec 11, 2011)

If you're looking for a great stove with similar capacity to the F600 and top-loading, I HIGHLY recommend a Quadrafire Isle Royale! I've been burning 20+ plus years and have owned 12-15 different stoves and the IR is the best stove we've ever owned....

NP



			
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## BrowningBAR (Dec 11, 2011)

scooby074 said:
			
		

> cold here today so i built a bigger fire to get temps.
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> stove pipe 350-400
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I'm thinking your home might be a little more drafty than you realize. Either way, if you want a warmer house, you will need a bigger stove. Due to the fact that a 2.25 cu ft firebox is heating your home so poorly, and you live in a very cold climate, I would suggest looking at the Blaze King King. Last thing you want to do is upgrade and still not meet your needs.


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## NordicSplitter (Dec 11, 2011)

My buddy at work has an older Jotul F600 with a top loader, however they don't make them any longer. Hope I didn't confuse you with the cost.. The Stove was $2300... The hearth and install were $2400 and the blower was $279...Total $4979... Figure I will have it for about 20 yrs. Only $250 a year for a great stove.


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## DanCorcoran (Dec 11, 2011)

First time I've heard of measuring the temperature of a room by using an IR thermometer on an inside wall.  I think air temperature is what is normally measured, not the temperature of the structure itself.


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 11, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

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im with BAR,

the stove running in the 5 to 6 hundred F range cruising sounds reasonable to me thouh i dont know that stove or what its supposed to cruise at are these temps holding for any amount of time? or is that just the "peak temp"?

while 1700 SQFT can be heated by a stove of that size not EVERY 1700 SQ FT  space will be. what kind of heat loss are we looking at?  how are we set for insulation? windows? etc. 

again i cant speak to the broken bricks /baffles as its not my stove and im not sure what caused this. the painted surface thing though wasnt the stove's fault, it got wet and the paint isnt "weatherproof' 

back to the sq ft rating, im not sure what this model's sq ft coverage rating is but it shold be noted that stove ratings geterally are set by "best case" scenario so if it said 1700 sq ft , actually it should read "up to" 1700 sq ft. things like insulation, floor plan and the like come into consideration .

without knowing the floor plan or the degree of insulation and just reading posts it does sound like you need more stove , but the stove may not be "faulty" just doesnt have the "horsepower" to cover your particular space


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## KB007 (Dec 11, 2011)

I have a 1450 in the basement of our 1800sqft bungalow (that's 1800 upstairs and 1800 downstairs).

We used the 1450 for a full year and a half and it heated our house fairly well.  

Couple of observations:

1) I strongly doubt your wood is "dry".  Being split for 4-6 months just isn't going to cut it yes, pun intended   I ran this stove for about 2 months with poorly seasoned wood the spring we bought it and it really didn't perform very well.  It definitely likes good dry wood in there.

2) You say you run the blower at 80% - that may be a bit too fast, I found running the blower more like 40% seemed to run the stove nicely.  It may be cooling things a bit too much.

3) Temps could probably be a bit higher.  I used a "calibrated" stove top thermo and IR gun and usually used to run the 1450 up to at least 650 at the front corner before starting to cut the air down to cruise.

4) Your last post mentioned making a "larger fire" - wondering - are you running the stove with a decent north south load each time?  For that stove we would always run N/S, fill it to the gills and let it get to 650 - usually between 30-4- minutes, then turn down to 1/2 for about 15 minutes, then close it almost all the way to get beatifull secondaries.  Are you getting the secondaries firing?  It should look like the bowels of hell with them going and once you close it right down it will actually get a little hotter.

5) how are you circulating the air?  Hopefully you're running a fan blowing cold airr into the room with the stove?

It's probably a combination of a bit of all of these plus maybe something like drafts or poor insulation (how much do you have in the walls / attic?)


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## BKInsert (Dec 12, 2011)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> First time I've heard of measuring the temperature of a room by using an IR thermometer on an inside wall.  I think air temperature is what is normally measured, not the temperature of the structure itself.



+1, you can not expect the wall temperature to reach air temperature that fast.  You need to measure the air temperature on a far wall vs the actual wall temperature.  Can you do that and get back to us?  What is the temperature reading on the closest controller heater?

Also, I think that like someone else said running the blower at 80% is way too fast for idle heat, at idle you should run it at approximately the same setting as your air intake, for example air 1/2 open then blower 1/2 speed...


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## scooby074 (Dec 14, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

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House is VERY open concept and on a slab. The stove has to heat much more than just the living room, just a WAG but id say that minus the bedrooms the stove heats 1200 sf maybe. I think thats the issue as to why i cant get enough heat in the house. There arent that many drafts really. All double pane windows. ceiling / walls are insulated. House was wrapped in tyvec and resided just last year.


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## scooby074 (Dec 14, 2011)

Nonprophet said:
			
		

> If you're looking for a great stove with similar capacity to the F600 and top-loading, I HIGHLY recommend a Quadrafire Isle Royale! I've been burning 20+ plus years and have owned 12-15 different stoves and the IR is the best stove we've ever owned....
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I tried to look at a quadrifire today, dealer pretty much gave up on the wood burners to concentrate on their pellet stoves. His woodburners are mainly from Pacific enerty, jotul and enerzone. Too bad, i heard good things on quad


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## scooby074 (Dec 14, 2011)

BrowningBAR said:
			
		

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Found a couple dealers local for BK. Havent had a chance to look yet. Not sure if im that interested as i THINK i want cast iron this time. Might be open to being swayed however.


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## scooby074 (Dec 14, 2011)

NordicSplitter said:
			
		

> My buddy at work has an older Jotul F600 with a top loader, however they don't make them any longer. Hope I didn't confuse you with the cost.. The Stove was $2300... The hearth and install were $2400 and the blower was $279...Total $4979... Figure I will have it for about 20 yrs. Only $250 a year for a great stove.



Its ok. Didnt confuse me more than i already am .:D

Got some prices today and let me tell you, if i could get a f600 for $2300 id have it already. Today was my first look in person. I didnt see a f600 (not stocked) but i did see a 400 and a ridgely. They are so much better constructed than what i currently run  its not funny. Night and day difference. I see where the added money goes. 

Prices i got today:

F600
Matt black paint $3200
Majorica brown $3810

f500
matte black  paint $2725
Majorica brown $3394

Blower and heat shield prices are the same for both
Blower
$399
Rear heat shield (required for blower)
$159

For giggles i priced a PE summit at the same time, not sure i want a steel stove again, but my buddy runs a summit and is very happy

PE summit enamel with bonus fan $2935


All these prices are minus tax, so there will be an additional 15% on top. We really get the shaft here. Im going to call several other dealers, but i dont expect much difference. Any purchase (assuming finances are right)  would hinge on sale of my current stove.


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## scooby074 (Dec 14, 2011)

DanCorcoran said:
			
		

> First time I've heard of measuring the temperature of a room by using an IR thermometer on an inside wall.  I think air temperature is what is normally measured, not the temperature of the structure itself.


Its the only semi-accurate method i have. I dont have a decent "air" thermo that i trust in that part of the house.. I do have a Davis weather station in a separate room that reads air temperature. Its beside a computer that runs 24/7 making lots of heat. Currently it reads 20*c. When i measure the wall temp by the station it reads 19.2*c, so my method while unconventional is somewhat accurate.


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## scooby074 (Dec 14, 2011)

stoveguy2esw said:
			
		

> im with BAR,
> 
> the stove running in the 5 to 6 hundred F range cruising sounds reasonable to me thouh i dont know that stove or what its supposed to cruise at are these temps holding for any amount of time? or is that just the "peak temp"?
> 
> ...



This is it in a nutshell. I sized my stove without taking enough leeway to allow for the open concept, long house that it is, nor the fact that its on a slab. Or the 4 picture windows.  While technically my stove should heat 2000+ according to the literature it falls way short in practice. I just dont have enough HP out of it, as you say. Plus i dont like the fact that i have to reload through the nite and the stove doesnt hold heat and radiate, so when i come home at nite the house is cold. I know thats the nature of steel stoves (now) so i wont make that mistake again.

I agree on the paint issue, thats why next time im going enamel.

The baffles were a bad design. They are fiber baffles. The replacement models are over 2x as thick as the ones that came with it. Napoleon knows its an issue (hence the redesign) but they still wouldnt cover it under warranty.


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## scooby074 (Dec 14, 2011)

KB007 said:
			
		

> I have a 1450 in the basement of our 1800sqft bungalow (that's 1800 upstairs and 1800 downstairs).
> 
> We used the 1450 for a full year and a half and it heated our house fairly well.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately im stuck with this wood. I wish i had a moisture probe but i dont. Maybe santa will get me one if i hint around :D

Ill try turning the blower down. Maybe it is cooling the stove too much, however the air coming off the back of the stove is only "warm" not "hot" 

ill let the stove get a bit hotter before damping.  I load N/S (fr (door end)/back?). I was running smaller fires on the warm days (we were almost 10*C) to save wood.  I think im getting good secondary burn? looks like im getting "wisps" of flames when im damped down. And my glass is staying very clean.

Air circulation in the house is just convection now. Im going to install a ceiling fan in the room where the stove is, however you should note the house is very open concept, other then the bed, bath and utility rooms, its all open.

walls are 2x6. ceiling has maybe 6" fiberglass insulation there right now. It could use more.


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## KB007 (Dec 14, 2011)

If you're burning right, the secondaries should look like the mouth of a dragon when they get going, not just a few wisps of flame.  It should be pouring out from the centre towards the sides.  Do you have the baffles pushed all the way back?  if the get to far towards the front, they can block a lot of air flow.

Rather than buying a new stove just yet, I'd be inclined to get some better insulation in the attic (go up to R50 at least).  I had R30 blown in on top of R20 for less than a thousand bucks and it made a huge difference in the comfort feeling in our home.  Plus, if you do eventually change the stove, it'll still help keep you warm.

  Also, maybe try to buy some known seasoned wood (gas stations have bundles, or maybe somewhere else if possible) and try to burn a load of that stuff and see if it burns diferently.  Let it get good and hot, turn it down and see if you get the bowels of hell secondaries.

I had a couple of pics of the secondaries going here:  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/49642/   this was with a small load and I didn't try to get the secondaries fired up too much.


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## Wade A. (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm +1 on looking at the quality of the fuel. A bucked tree ain't a split log, and nothing appreciable starts to happen until it is split and stacked. By your own description, you're not burning dry wood. If you doubt that conclusion, I'd only suggest you get a moisture meter, re-split some of it and take a reading on the fresh interior surface. I'm going to bet lunch it will read somewhere north of 15%....my absolute cut-off for my Jotul is 10%, max, and even then I notice a big difference in my btu output from other, drier wood. After all... 350* max? Good Lord man, I can burn seasoned wood in an open steel barrel and reach those temps!


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## PLAYS WITH FIRE (Dec 14, 2011)

Simple way to calibrate you thermometer is boil some water.....When the water comes to a rolling boil, dip and hold for a few seconds(don't touch metal pot). I found my rutland to about 90 degrees off and I use a UGL TEMPROOF magnetic that is like dead on! 

I found I can run a little hotter than I was.....Sooooooo I do!


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## Woody Stover (Dec 15, 2011)

Maybe you could get a stove load of your buddy's wood and see if it does better.
If you end up getting another stove, how about a PE Alderlea? Steel firebox (no air leaks) and cast shell, convective stove. Probably not too cheap. Doesn't look as cool as a JoeTool, but...


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## Hanko (Dec 15, 2011)

600 on the stove top! nothing wrong with that stove. make sure the door and windows are closed


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## ColdNH (Dec 15, 2011)

Hanko said:
			
		

> 600 on the stove top! nothing wrong with that stove. make sure the door and windows are closed



What he said,

I had a 1450 in my old house, a basement install in a 1600 sq foot house, thing ran great, actually would sweat us out of the basement (80+ degrees was common) but the heat would rise and the rest of the house would be in the upper 60's with no other heat source going in the dead of winter. 

This was with 2 year seasoned ash and 3 year seasoned oak.


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## scooby074 (Dec 20, 2011)

Trying a friends wood wont happen because hes 4 hrs away.. (wow , that sounded bad :D)

Honestly i feel that with a stove temp of 5-600  there is nothing really that wrong with the wood (as mentioned) . I just think that the stove isnt big enough to heat this long house. If it was a 2 story i dont think id be having any issues. 

I wish i had a moisture meter so i could post what it said to prove or disprove that theory, but i dont have one. I will get one when princess auto has them again. They have one for under $20 that looks like it should do the job. Suggesting harbor freight etc. is a no go because they dont exist here.

Attic insulation is on the list for next year. Hopefully there will be some government rebates.

Honestly, now that christmas is over, i just dont think finances will allow a $3500 expenditure for a new stove. It looks like im stuck making the best out of this one to the next burning season unless something changes


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## pen (Dec 20, 2011)

Whatever it adds to the home is more than would be there w/out it.

However, if you can't get the stove room above 15 Â°C  in the weather you were describing with a 600 degree stove, and the square footage you were describing, I'd say you need a poo load of insulating / sealing / replacement windows maybe in your future.  

Additionally, if 600 is truly the top end of what you can get out of that, I'm also going to go back and question the wood.  I know if my stove only made it to 600 we'd have a house that's damn cold from where I heat.  There is a huge difference between 600, then 650, then 700, and 750, etc.  If that truly is your max temp, and you went through 6 cord of hardwood (softwood I'd understand) in that stove, I'm thinking it wasn't hot enough because the wood wasn't ready.  You mention the wood being down an extended period but only cut and split 4-6 months.  I say the problem "starts" there.  

How colse to closed on the air settings are you able to leave the stove at for cruising?

pen


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## scooby074 (Dec 20, 2011)

I just found a cheap meter for $23.99 down from $79.99 at Canadian tire. Im going to post a new thread to discuss it and get opinions.... And to also let my fellow canucks know about the deal. I might get a meter yet :D

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brow...ercraft+Digital+Moisture+Reader.jsp?locale=en

EDIT: heres the thread to discuss the meter

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/86412/


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## scooby074 (Dec 20, 2011)

Pen, i never have maxed out the stove. Once it gets beyond the safe part of my stove pipe thermo, i damp it down.

When cruising, i typically have it at 1/4-1/2.

As mentioned, im probably going to pick up that moisture meter above. Hopefully they have some in stock. Then we can put the moisture issue to bed once and for all.


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## pen (Dec 20, 2011)

On a full load w/ dry wood and a good draft, leaving that thing 1/4 open should be more than sufficient to see stove top temps higher than what you are sharing.  I put more credence into stove temps than flue temps on modern stoves so long as the air isn't kept wide open.  Something is lacking here.

pen


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## scooby074 (Dec 20, 2011)

Ok, im not sure this is going to help at all, but i took some pictures of the stove just a few minutes ago.  Glass is dirty and pics are a bit grainy (hey, its not like i planned on taking pics of my stove today  :red: ), but i hope you can see the colour of the flames and how they are rolling under the baffles. and maybe determine something. That looks like good secondary burn, at least to my uneducated eyes.

Stove was loaded 2 hours or so, maybe 2.5

Damper is on ~1/4 +

pipe temp 300*

Stove top temp 485*






http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu221/scooby074/Wood Stove/IMG_3672.jpg

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu221/scooby074/Wood Stove/IMG_3673.jpg 

EDIT: does hearth not get along with Photobucket or something? Anyways, i got to go to bed, ill figure it out tomorrow


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## HotCoals (Dec 20, 2011)

Here you go Scooby..took me a few to find them..lol.





I can get to the pic but can't post it here either.


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## HotCoals (Dec 20, 2011)

TEST.


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## scooby074 (Dec 20, 2011)

Thanks Hot Coals.

I tried to do an inline pic using the


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## BKInsert (Dec 20, 2011)

I think the problem is in the way you name the directories/files, hearth does not allow you to have ANY spaces between the names, even subdirectories, you would need to replace the spaces with "_" or something else.  It took me a while to get this...


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## scooby074 (Dec 20, 2011)

I put an underscore in. Lets see if it works


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## scooby074 (Dec 20, 2011)

It works!!

Thanks BKInsert


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## Huntindog1 (Dec 20, 2011)

I think its your wood also. If the wood has too much moisture your gonna burn at too high of setting to compensate or the extra moisture. 

Plus your gonna with the not so good wood  burn the stove open longer time to get the fire going then when you close down the air you have little amount of the wood left to produce smoke gases to burn the secondaries.

Its the burning of the smoke gases that make the stove put out the extra heat that its rated at.  Your not getting the stove up to heat fast and quick so as not to be burning up the main wood for a long burn that is hot , hot as your burning more smoke than burning the wood. Wood has to burn slow then the smoke produced from the slow burning wood is burned from the secondary tubes up in the top of the stove. If you get the stove top up to say a 700 temp then you cut the air back to let the main logs produce smoke and burn slower , you should see good secondary burning , its this secondary burning that helps the stove maintain stove top temps to sustain secondary burning at high temp as long as the logs can produce smoke gases. 

What you need to do is get a stove full of hot coals, rake the coals to the front of the stove, so you can load a big split in the back of the stove all the way to the bottom of the stove so as not hot coals are under it. Then load another split on top of that back split so that the wood it almost up to the secondary air tubes but leave at least and inch or two of space. Then load a second row of splits one on top of the other like the back row but this second row maybe sitting on coals depends on how far forward you can rake the coals but thats fine its that back row laying all the way on the bottom that gives you a longer burn. 

So now that you have 2 rows lets say 4 splits loaded, there should be a space up front of the stove in which you could load a third row of splits on coals but dont , what you want to do is load some small kindling on top of all the coals raked to the front . load small kindling and lots of it as much as you can with out it falling out the front if you open the door. Also if you want after the kindling for a better heat up put some  rolled up news paper knots on top of the kindling.  Thats taking a full page of news paper and rolling it up so you end up with a longs tube of the thin newspaper take this long tube bend it and tie it in a loose knot , this makes a newspaper knot that will burn very hot and fast to quickly heat up your flue and creates draw so as the stove gets more air. Those small kindling with the coals below them and paper on top should start to burn hot and fast to bring your stove up to temp very fast.

The idea here is to get the stove hot fast so as not to sit there waiting for ever for the stove to reach high temps. THus having still your full load of wood to smolder and create smoke to burn. Plus this kindling getting the stove very hot will enable you to light off the secondaries by backing down the air little bits at a time. 

Remember this important point that its the stacked wood up to the secondaries that reduces the space up there and this reduced space is a smaller space in which to build the high heat in which to ignite the smoke gases. 

What  I do for an added effect is once the stove is hot and the kindling is burned down in front of the stove I will put another log on the third row space up by the door.  that I left open for the kindling. I only do this if the stove is really hot as I dont want to open the door and kill my secondary burning. Its the really hot stove that lets me add another log up front.  Then get the stove a rockin then slam it down for a slow burn. 

Remember you want to get the heat up fast and quick so as to not spend time burning or using  your main load to get the temps up especially in your case if your wood has moisture in it I would get the stove up to a hotter temp quickly to compensate.


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## BKInsert (Dec 20, 2011)

Great!




			
				scooby074 said:
			
		

> It works!!
> 
> Thanks BKInsert


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## KB007 (Dec 20, 2011)

Coupe of things:

1) if you want heat you need to load the stove - that pic shows 2 splits in there N/S?  
2) are your baffles pushed all the way back?  on ours the baffles tend to creep forward and I found each time I was getting a little cooler response I had to push them toward the back.
3) ave you checked that your thermometer is working?  The magnetic ones are notoriously inaccurate by 100's of degrees.  It may simply be too far off to be working for you at all.  Either use the boiling water, over or get borrow an IR gun to check the accuracy.

I think we can figure this out and save you a bunch of money on a new stove.

With a decent load - I'd say at least 5-6 good sized split - fill it up on top of a nice bed of coals.  Leave the air open all the way until it gets going nice - s/b 1/2 hr to 45 minutes.  Once the stove top is between 550 and 600 turn it down to 1/2 for about 15 minutes.  Stove top should probably get hotter an the secondaries should start spewing flames.  Turn it down to fully closed and see if the secondaries are still spewing flames.  At this point the top should get even hotter.  Take pics at each stage and post. 

On a separate topic - do you have a small fan blowing air into your stove room?  It really does help circulate warm air out to the rest of the house.  It takes a while for the air currents to establish and work, but in the end it really does work well.  We have 1800 sqft upstairs and our far bedrooms keep a nice (actually a little too warm for sleeping sometimes).

Lastly - I saw that deal at CT and bought one of those meters - just haven't used it yet.


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## BKInsert (Dec 20, 2011)

KB007 said:
			
		

> Coupe of things:
> 
> 1) if you want heat you need to load the stove - that pic shows 2 splits in there N/S?
> 2) are your baffles pushed all the way back?  on ours the baffles tend to creep forward and I found each time I was getting a little cooler response I had to push them toward the back.
> ...



How do you move the air to the far bedrooms?


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## KB007 (Dec 20, 2011)

we have a floor fan blowing air on low speed facing into the LR (where our insert is) and the rest is warm air currents naturally moving to occupy the space the cold air is moving out of.  It took a while, but I finally had the epiphany that you simply can't move hot air, yo have to move the cold air.


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## BKInsert (Dec 20, 2011)

KB007 said:
			
		

> we have a floor fan blowing air on low speed facing into the LR (where our insert is) and the rest is warm air currents naturally moving to occupy the space the cold air is moving out of.  It took a while, but I finally had the epiphany that you simply can't move hot air, yo have to move the cold air.



Interesting that 1 fan does the trick of moving the hot air all the way to the back bedrooms.


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## Huntindog1 (Dec 21, 2011)

I was checking one of your earlier posts on this stove?

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/68205/

Looks like that stove has alot of head room make sure you get wood stacked up high in that stove to reduce that head room, With a 18" by 18" fire box stack your wood north south.

If you have a good bed of coals with a box that size you can rake the coals over to one side of box for a north south load so lets say rake them right then load the left side of the box all the way up to the about 2 inches from the top of the stove. Then after loading the left side rake the coals to the left towards the center up against the wood you just loaded, as now your gonna load the stove on the right side all the way to about 2 inches from the top of box. So now you have wood on the left and right with some open area down the middle in which to pile alot of small kindling. to burn hot and fast and quickly raise the temp of the stove. you can throw some paper knots on top of the kindling to get things cooking fast.

My Performer stove gets too rockin at a flue pipe temp of 400 and the stove top temp will shoot up to 700- 800 once it gets going in about 15 minutes with a good load of small kindling on top of hot coals. Make sure you dont block your dog house air thats in the bottom of the stove usually in front of the door middle , below the door. So rake coals away from it a little. Once I reach those temps I will shut it all the way down in increments of 1/3. 

Your loading this stove full and adding wood once your back to coals as just adding a log here of there is not good like your pics only has 2 logs in it.

I came home this afternoon and my son couldnt get a fire going as he loaded just 2 logs on a bed of coals. Too much open box space to build heat , you need the heat up in the top so you have to fill the box up to about 2 inches from the top to reduce that head space. If its north south like i described in this post you got most of the box filled on the sides with some space down the middle where all the coals were raked.

Lastly you can keep some space inbetween the logs say 1/2" to 1" will help air flow.


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## scooby074 (Dec 21, 2011)

Huntindog1: Your procedure is essentially what im following, especially the part about poking the coals. It helps to get air to the bottom of the packed pile too. Makes alot more heat.

I try to fill the firebox as full as possible.

I dont think i could ever see 700* for a stove top temp. That would put me WAY up on my stove pipe temp.  I dont want to push it that far.

B007:

That pic was taken just before i headed to bed. The GF threw several sticks on a few hours earlier before she went to sleep. After those pics, i loaded the firebox , opened the damper full, killed a bit of time (glass milk, brush teeth etc.), turned the damper down  and went to bed myself. This is typically what we do.

Baffels are at the back. these new designed ones are very tight when installed and come much closer to the door than the ones that came from the factory.

I have an IR gun. Thats how ive been taking my stovetop temps.

Ill try your procedure, honestly ive never seen my temps RISE when the stove is damped down, but ill be sure to check.

No fan in the room yet. The bedrooms are right beside the stove so they stay pretty warm (close to the same temp as the LR) GF doesnt like the temp too hot to sleep anyways. There will be a ceiling fan installed in the room soon however.,

On the meter, CT was sold out locally. I think im going to go for the General meter that Busy Bee has just begun selling. It seems to have good reviews.

Huntindog1: Yes i had a thread last year on this stove. That was my first introduction here and i had a lot to learn.  Thanks to the helpful posters i certainly know more now than i did then. I had some issues with the baffles and at that time i was having heat output issues as well. 

I ended up last year coming to the conclusion that it must be my wood. This year i split smaller pieces and the wood was much older to start with. It also dried when split for a longer time

IMHO this wood is dry. My stove top temps are higher this year and I have no issues relighting the fire even if there are even minimal amounts of coals. Literally its throw a couple splits in, open the damper up full, and wait 20 mins.

Now im starting to think that there is nothing wrong with my technique, but that the stove itself is just too small. This thread was basically to try and find a suitable replacement, but now that im into it this far, what the heck, ill try whats suggested to see if i can save this stove.  ;-) 

 I will know more once i finally get that moisture meter.


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## scooby074 (Dec 21, 2011)

kb007: i tried to follow your instructions. I took some temps and times. this is my top up before i go to bed. Hope nobody minds the pics.


Filled firebox. ~4" of large coals to start. Pic taken after 5 mins of 100% open damper







STT of 597* after 5 mins 100%






Pipe temp 458* after 5 mins, 100%

No PIC

After about 5 mins, damper at 50% (10 mins after initial reload)






After 15 mins, 50% (25 mins after reload)






STT of 768*  :gulp:  after 15 mins, 50%






Up around 525 for a pipe temp, after 15 min, 50%






Damper under 1/4, 5 mins (30 mins after reload)






 Now i got to get to bed lol. ill blame  you guys when i fall asleep tomorrow afternoon :D


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## KB007 (Dec 21, 2011)

So the last pic looks like you're getting some nice secondaries (the flames spitting out from the centre towards the sides.  It's hard to tell, but is that firebox stuffed full - it looks like you could have thrown another couple of splits in there, but it looks like a pretty good load none the less.

Where are you taking the STT?  I used to take it about 6 inches in from the front left corner.  Seem to recall a post about using that location.  Is that a probe or surface thermometer on your stove pipe, and how high up from the top do you have it?

With a STT of 768 and the blower on low/med you must have felt some better heat?  Did you get a chance to check the room temp after that (I know you said you were heading off to sleep...)  

And I think I can probably speak for a good majority, we love pics (at least I do...)


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## Huntindog1 (Dec 21, 2011)

Looks like your getting the hang of it. Some fine tuning, would be try and burn less of  your big wood to get temps up by having an area of just coals to lay kindling on up the middle. Add to that you got to have the areas to the left and right sides  that the wood is not on the coals. As if they are on the coals , they will be immediately burning. Thats not what you want. What you want is the burn to start up the middle for a north/south burn and the burn has to move from center to the outer sides but it will take some time as those outer splits are not on the hot coals and they are like 3 splits high. If you can get a perfect load setup with both sides loaded to the bottom no coals and most if not all the coals raked to the middle then on top of those coals stack a bunch of kindling to create this intense small fire burning up the middle with very little burning going on of those left and right side loads of splits. What you will see is that small area up the middle will heat the stove up rather quickly if its good dry kindling and lots of it. Its better to waste small kindling than your all night burn burn bigger splits. THis small area up the center North south is just that a small burn chamber area of intense heat that will get the secondaries going quickly. The loads of splits on the left and right side will starting burning on their surface facing to the inside up the middle and on their top surfaces up by the secondary burn when it gets going good. Your objective is how fast can I get this little burn chamber up the middle of the stove burning hot and quick , with out burning nothing more than the inward facing surfaces and top surfaces  of those larger splits. Then your load will burn outward slowly all night and with the wood stacked high up to the secondaries and the small area up the middle it will be easy for the stove to maintain high heat and secondary burn temps in those areas. An important aspect is that the kindling has all the hot coals under it and no obstruction above it so it can burn really fast. I noticed putting bigger stuff on kindling slows down its ability get up to temp fast.

I 'm with kb007 that you could have got a couple more splits on their.

I get the feeling you have no small kindling, take some of your good dry splits that looks like they will split easy with a hatchet as they are straight and no knots. Make kindling of 1" or less. This will save you wood in the long run as you wont burn up the big splits trying to get the stove up to temp and with the longer burn times of the stove , will also save you wood.


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## dwillistein (Dec 21, 2011)

I really doubt it's the wood.  Some of my wood will sizzle a little and my stove heat this old drafty house just fine.  Your stove gets up to temp so I don't see the wood as a problem.

Sounds more like the house just loses more heat than you were expecting.  How is your attic insulation?


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## scooby074 (Dec 23, 2011)

FirewoodMan said:
			
		

> I really doubt it's the wood.  Some of my wood will sizzle a little and my stove heat this old drafty house just fine.  Your stove gets up to temp so I don't see the wood as a problem.
> 
> Sounds more like the house just loses more heat than you were expecting.  How is your attic insulation?



I have to agree about the wood. I should have my moisture meter tomorrow i hope. 

Attic needs more insulation. There is probably 6" up there now. There are some government programs to improve your insulation. i plan on applying for some grants in the new year. I know im losing heat through the attic. I build up some major ice dams over the winter.


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## Todd (Dec 23, 2011)

Did your pipe temps drop after you adjusted the air down from 1/2 to 1/4? You were over 500 on that pipe temp which is sending a ton of heat up the flue. If your pipe temps are running on the high end you may want to consider a pipe damper to keep more of the heat in the stove.


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## BKInsert (Dec 23, 2011)

scooby074 said:
			
		

> FirewoodMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just added ~1000ft of 9" (R30) of unfaced insulation over the 6" I had up there in the attic, did this over the last two weeks.


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## HotCoals (Dec 23, 2011)

Hintingdog1,
That was interesting how you set up the load. 
I have just put 4 really small splits in the center and two big ones..one on each side n/s on my coals when the stove was almost out..my fault for not paying any atten.
Open air all the way and burn those up..by-pass open.
Then when they are just about burnt up spread the hot coals around then load the night load ..burn hot till my temps are up again and then shut the by-pass..adjust t-stat to where I want it ,then go to bed.
I think I'll try your way to compare..pretty cool.


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## KB007 (Dec 23, 2011)

6" of fibreglass prolly R20-25 maybe a bit more.  I added a whack of cellulose couple of years ago up to R50 and it really helps retain the heat.  How are your room temps with that thing running at 700+ STT?


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## scooby074 (Dec 24, 2011)

Todd said:
			
		

> Did your pipe temps drop after you adjusted the air down from 1/2 to 1/4? You were over 500 on that pipe temp which is sending a ton of heat up the flue. If your pipe temps are running on the high end you may want to consider a pipe damper to keep more of the heat in the stove.



Yes. Temps dropped down to the low side of the "clean burn" section of the thermo. 325* or so


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## scooby074 (Dec 24, 2011)

KB007 said:
			
		

> 6" of fibreglass prolly R20-25 maybe a bit more.  I added a whack of cellulose couple of years ago up to R50 and it really helps retain the heat.  How are your room temps with that thing running at 700+ STT?



When it was cranking at 700*.... Boy could i feel the difference. But once damped, temps started to drop. I didnt leave it at 700 long enough to warm the other rooms, but that room, especially near the stove must have been close to 30. I didnt measure it though


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## KB007 (Dec 24, 2011)

It would usually not stay at that high temp for very long.  Normally it should get up that high, then drop off to cruise at say 500+/- after a while once the air is closed off.  The secondaries will burn for a while and eventually slow to give you a nice cruise.  With a nice full firebox we were gettin 4-6 hours of good cruise out of the 1450, then it would drop down once it got to the caoling stage, but would still go another couple of hourse around 350-400, still making some nice heat.

To heat the other rooms you really need a fan blowing air into the room, this really does work!  It takes a few hours to get other parts of the house warm, but it's the best way most people have found to easily move air.


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## scooby074 (Dec 25, 2011)

I got one of those Canadian tire brand moisture meters.

Not sure if im going to use it. When i was at the store finishing my xmas shopping, i noticed there were 3 on the shelf, but at the ~$79.00 regular price. I enquired on it, and they said the sale ended Thursday, but for some odd reason it was still in the system as $21.00 even thought he tag was corrected.

Needless to say i bought it.  But im thinking the General model is a bit better http://www.busybeetools.com/products/DIGITAL-MOISTURE-METER-GENERAL-TOOLS.html . Im going to hold off opening it until i see if the General is still available. If it is im going to get one. If not im keeping the Mastercraft.


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## scooby074 (Dec 28, 2011)

I opened up the Mastercraft today. Curiosity was getting the better of me.

On wood that was inside the house (yesterdays load) i was getting around 18-20%. On wood that just came off the pile, still cold and had a dusting of snow i was getting 25%


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## Damper Dan (Jan 1, 2012)

I had a Napoleon 1400PL (same basic design as your 1450) and had a similar experience.

After reading the reviews I thought it would be a good stove to heat my house (a well insulated 2000sq ft. open layout ranch). I've had several non EPA wood stoves in the past so I wanted to try one out and the Napoleon sounded like it should do the job.

After a thorough evaluation period and trying several varriations (wood type, size, moisture content, load size, air control, etc.) I decided to go back to my tried and true Nashua non-epa woodstove which does a better job with out all the hassle.

The Napoleon stove just didn't deliver the amount of heat needed for the space I had. It took a fairly long time begin putting out heat. The secondary burning only occured in the first third of the burning cycle and didn't seem to help the heat output. The burn burn times weren't all that great (reloading was needed every 3-4 hours). For me new wasn't better.

So I'm very happy to have my old Nashua back again keeping me and my house very warm.


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## dafattkidd (Jan 1, 2012)

Damper Dan said:
			
		

> I had a Napoleon 1400PL (same basic design as your 1450) and had a similar experience.
> 
> After reading the reviews I thought it would be a good stove to heat my house (a well insulated 2000sq ft. open layout ranch). I've had several non EPA wood stoves in the past so I wanted to try one out and the Napoleon sounded like it should do the job.
> 
> ...



Its funny, all of the non EPA wood burners who have upgraded to an EPA stove from a Nashua have a hard time giving up that stove.  That must be a beast.  Good thing you held on to yours.


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## Damper Dan (Jan 2, 2012)

Yep...once I tried the Nashua I knew it was going to be hard to beat it...and considering that I bought it for $50 this one's a keeper.


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## SnapCracklePop (Jan 2, 2012)

scooby074 said:
			
		

> I opened up the Mastercraft today. Curiosity was getting the better of me.
> 
> On wood that was inside the house (yesterdays load) i was getting around 18-20%. On wood that just came off the pile, still cold and had a dusting of snow i was getting 25%



Sounds like you are checking moisture content on the outside of the splits. What do you get when you resplit and test the fresh cut?

Also, did I miss this? How tall is your flue? If it's too short, that will make for challenges...

Nancy


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## MrWhoopee (Jan 2, 2012)

Did I miss mention of the ceiling height in the large, open space?


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## scooby074 (Jan 2, 2012)

Damper Dan said:
			
		

> I had a Napoleon 1400PL (same basic design as your 1450) and had a similar experience.
> 
> After reading the reviews I thought it would be a good stove to heat my house (a well insulated 2000sq ft. open layout ranch). I've had several non EPA wood stoves in the past so I wanted to try one out and the Napoleon sounded like it should do the job.
> 
> ...



Exactly what im experiencing. 

My memories of the good old stoves tells me that id have this place cranking if i had a good one. Burn times are short with my Napo too.





			
				PopCrackleSnap said:
			
		

> scooby074 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nancy, I am checking along the length of the split. Ill resplit a piece tomorrow and check on the newly split edge.

The flue itself would be 20-25' from the stove to the raincap.




			
				MrWhoopee said:
			
		

> Did I miss mention of the ceiling height in the large, open space?



Ceiling height in all rooms is 8'. No big cathedral type ceilings here.


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## scooby074 (Jan 2, 2012)

10*c  and  poured rain today so i was unable to split a piece of wood and check moisture.

Who says global warming is a hoax? lol


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## FarmallTom (Jan 23, 2012)

Stumbled across this discussion and, actually, this site during a Google search.
I must say that I am profoundly surprised by your dislike for the Napoleon 1450.  I own this same model and so do my parents.   I could hardly be happier with it as far as heating goes.  We live in a 125 year old 2-story farmhouse that is not all that well sealed up, although it's considerably better than it was when I moved in!  My folks live in an old 2 story farmhouse as well, built in 1905 out of mostly used lumber!  
Both houses are probably in the 1500 - 1700 sq ft range, I suppose...
Neither my parents, not my wife and I have had any significant problems heating our entire houses with our Napoleons.
I would also add that this big old farmhouse of mine is out in the open with NO trees near it and we get the full brunt of the winter wind.  While winter winds are the most difficult thing to contend with when heating this house, I don't have any significant trouble keeping it warm enough to keep the furnace from coming on when I leave the T-stat which is in another room set at about 68. 
The real key to this stove, I believe, is to have good, cured wood.
Just the other night, my wife was making bread and said she'd like to have it warmed up a bit more in there for the bread to rise.  I loaded the stove up about 2/3 full with some medium sized stuff, opened the damper, and went upstairs for a little bit.  When I came down stairs a short time later, the thermometer I keep in the pipe (double wall), just above the stove top, read nearly 600!  :O  Wow! I didn't mean to let her get THAT hot...  The pipe temp usually runs about 100 degrees less than the top of the firebox when I put a thermometer there.

I would also agree with those who talked about adequate draft.  Enough pipe height is very important as is the grade of insulation in that pipe.  I assume you are using a good triple wall of some kind?
It's important for the smoke/air going out the pipe to stay hot as long/high as possible for the best draft.  If it's cooling off too much on the way up, you will lose lift/draft.

I hope you are able to resolve your issue with the Napoleon.
Best of luck to you!

-Tom


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