# My Geospring



## john193

I've had my geospring installed and running for about 6 days now, so I thought i'd add some of my initial observations.

I purchased the unit from lowes at $999, used a 10% coupon to tack on the 10 year labor warranty extension which brought my final price back to 999+tax.  I qualify for $400 from my local utility and used discover card to get another 5% cashback. 

We have the unit set to heat pump only mode (125F) and it is installed in my unfinished and unconditioned basement which stays 55 to 60 year round (the basement is completely underground).  The unit typically runs 1 to 2 hours after a shower to recoup the heat loss and the heat pump operates around 600 watts.  When running, the air coming out of the condenser is about 15F lower than the ambient air.  I have it in my utility room (where my oil boiler also resides, albeit turned off) which measures approximately 12 by 14 feet.  The door to the room is open, and my thermometer in there typically measures a 1F drop in temperature after the heater performs a recovery run.  The temperature normalizes within 15-20 min after its been off. 

I'm currently using a 5 gallon bucket (pictured) to collect the condensate (which we just use on the potted plants).  The amount of condensate pulled will vary on the ambient conditions and use, but given what I have collected I suspect it will take me about 3 weeks to fill a 5 gallon bucket.  Its just me and my wife at home.

As for the noise, we don't notice it upstairs at all.  The only time I can hear it running upstairs is if the basement door was left open.  It is no louder than modern day dehumidifiers (my reference point is a fridigaire dehumidifier).  It does sound like a small a/c when running.

I live in southeast PA and after purchasing the unit I filled out the online form for the rebate through my local utility (PECO).  For those who have PECO, you do not need to have your generation portion from PECO in order to qualify for the rebate, just have to be a PECO customer in good standing.  About 2 weeks after submitting the application, I got a call from PECO that they wanted to perform an in house inspection (about 5% of applications are selected, what I was told).  The inspection was rather painless and brief.  Someone came and looked at the unit, took a wide picture and then a picture of the serial number and barcode on the unit.  I should be getting my rebate in about 4 weeks.


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## woodgeek

Nice report.  IIRC, I got $300 from PECO ~2 years ago, on my 80 gal AOSmith HPWH.  No inspection by PECO, no problems to report.


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## johnny1720

Just curious what size breaker does this use?   

Condensate pumps are like $59 at plumbing supply houses.


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## john193

Same size breaker as a traditional electric water heater, 30 amp and 10 gauge copper wire. Only one heating source can be running at any given time, so no different than the traditional units. 

I'm sure I'll eventually go with a condensate pump but for the time being the bucket will suffice.


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## johnny1720

Nice work


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## Seasoned Oak

About that condensate water, I noticed that it does not get green when left out in the sun. Seems nothing grows in it. I discard it. I water the plants with rainwater and water from cleaning the fish tank.


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## john193

I suspect the condensate water is similar in mineral composition to distilled water, which isn't ideal for any living organism really. It's certainly not potable water. There are plenty of salts in the potting mix and soil to compensate for the lack of dissolved minerals in the condensate water that it makes no real difference. I can tell you in the decade or so of this practice, we have yet to kill a plant.

Fish tank water can be a treat for plants. Every year we clean out the inlaws pond and the grass and plants have a field day. Organic liquid fertilizer!


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## begreen

If distilled water killed plants we'd be in a heap of trouble. Rainwater is almost pure distilled water, though it picks up some dust and pollutants on the way down.


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## Seasoned Oak

begreen said:


> If distilled water killed plants we'd be in a heap of trouble. Rainwater is almost pure distilled water, though it picks up some dust and pollutants on the way down.


Its the water that comes off a window air conditioner. I didnt try to water any plants with it, but after leaving a bucket of it in the sun for a few weeks i wondered why it didnt get green.Even the mosquitos avoided it.  Puzzling 
Rain water picks up nitrogen from the air which i guess is why plants seem to love it.


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## begreen

In the winter I have the water shut off in the greenhouse Instead I use the water coming from the dehumidifier to water the plants. Hasn't killed them yet, though the aphids might.


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## fbelec

that's strange about your air conditioning water not turning green. when people start using their air conditioning up here somewhere about a month into that the calls start coming in to troubleshoot no cold air. or why is there water coming from my attic. the 3/4 inch line for the condensate is blocked up with green slime. so it can grow things


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## Seasoned Oak

I guess mosquitos avoid squeaky clean water in general. Usually find them in the nastiest water. Cant explain why it dont turn green.


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## Highbeam

Take a sip, it probably tastes bad. Condensate water is formed by pulling house air over a wet, cold, screen. It's a bit like an oil bath air filter for the house. Pulls all sorts of organic junk like skin flakes along with hair, dust, pollen, etc. I would expect bugs and bacteria to thrive there. You know that smell that really dirty people make? That "essence" is in thd condensate. The only thing that makes condensate similar to distilled water is that the molecules of water were once vapor so should be lower in some minerals. It is not clean.


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## semipro

I suspect the "green" is algae.  Phosphorus is typically the limiting nutrient for algae so water free of phosphorus won't support its growth. Since phosphorus is not typically airborne it shouldn't show up in distilled water.

That's why overuse of fertilizers and detergents containing phosphorus frequently results in water quality issues. The addition of phosphorus temporarily results in algae growth then the algae dies and its decay uses up all the oxygen in the water, killing fish etc.

Edit: algae require light for growth though so I'm not sure how they'd grow in an HVAC system.


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## Highbeam

semipro said:


> I suspect the "green" is algae.  Phosphorus is typically the limiting nutrient for algae so water free of phosphorus won't support its growth. Since phosphorus is not typically airborne it shouldn't show up in distilled water.
> 
> That's why overuse of fertilizers and detergents containing phosphorus frequently results in water quality issues. The addition of phosphorus temporarily results in algae growth then the algae dies and its decay uses up all the oxygen in the water, killing fish etc.



We always got a chuckle in school when the prof would say the lakes were P limited.


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## lostDuck

So for the few weeks that you have had the system are you glad you got it? I am looking to pull the trigger on one today and would love your input.

Thanks!


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## john193

lostDuck said:


> So for the few weeks that you have had the system are you glad you got it? I am looking to pull the trigger on one today and would love your input.
> 
> Thanks!


So far so good. The impact on energy consumption has been minimal and I might even get away with running my dehumidifier less for a little more savings. Very happy with it. I would highly recommend you go with the extended warranty. A great value at $99.


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## jeffesonm

Glad to hear yours is working out... I've had mine for 4-5 months and am very happy with it.  My $500 rebate check just showed up the other day too.


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## fbelec

has anyone had these units for more than 5 years? has anyone had compressor problems? has anyone had a tank rot out and what happened to the unit as far as removal? did it cost to get rid of because of freon?

thanks 
frank


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## john193

fbelec said:


> has anyone had these units for more than 5 years? has anyone had compressor problems? has anyone had a tank rot out and what happened to the unit as far as removal? did it cost to get rid of because of freon?
> 
> thanks
> frank



Someone I know has the first gen model and while I can't say exactly how old it is, just by the deduction of time I know they have had it for at least 3 years. The first gen had issues with the compressor and I know this person has had it replaced under warranty once. 

My guess is if the tank failed and required removal it would be no different than a regular tank removal. As for removing the freon, there may be costs associated with that, but I'm not certain on that.


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## woodgeek

Rollout of the geospring seems to have been ~4 years ago.  Most HPWH come with a 10+ year warranty on the tank, and will have paid fro themselves 2-3x over by then.


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## johnny1720

Lowes has these tanks for $699 in springville, ny


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## john193

The geospring comes with a 10 year warranty on parts and 1 year on labor. I paid another $99 to extend the labor warranty to 10 years as well.


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## semipro

john193 said:


> As for removing the freon, there may be costs associated with that, but I'm not certain on that.


I'm in the process of moving one of our ground source heat pump units in the basement.  It happens to be a split system where the water-freon heat exchanger and compressor are in the basement and the coil and air handler are in the attic.  I called around to HVAC servicing folks to see what it would cost to have someone come by and remove the R22 from the lines and system.  Most seemed uninterested saying the freon was worth nothing to them and they had to treat it as a waste.  The one price I got was $180.


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## Brian26

I have had my 2nd gen Geospring in for 1 year. I got mine for $200 at Lowes. $900-$400 Utility rebate-$300 federal. They are practically giving these things away in CT now. Lowes has them at $599 with a CT Zip Code with $400 utility rebate. Possibly a federal rebate as well? Nobody came and checked anything at my house or my mothers. I got my $400 utility check in like 2 weeks.

I have had no issues with mine. I have the 10 year extended warranty from Lowes as well. Mine has already pretty much paid for itself. I just hooked mine up to an Efergy energy monitor a few weeks ago.  Was amazed that it was averaging 1-2 KWH/Day. Pulls about 560 watts in heat pump mode. I'm heating my hot water at CT electric rates of.20/KWH for about $2 a week.

Keep in mind its just my wife and I. 2 showers at night and maybe a load or two of dishes a week in the dishwasher. The tank will recover in about 1.5-2 hours after back to back showers. 

I put one in at my mothers house who was heating her water with oil at probably a gallon a day/ $100-$120 a month. At $200 dollars after the rebates its paid off and shes ahead in a few months.


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## lostDuck

Brian26 did you buy you unit this year? When i bought mine this week Lowes said $599 was with rebate. Are you saying you got another 400 rebate on to top of that. This year CT energy stopped the rebates and made them instant rebates at the store.

FYI the reason the store clerk said they were selling so well in CT is that people were buying them at 599 in CT and then selling them for 999 in other states that dont have a rebate. Lowes is not validating that you are a CT resident.


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## Brian26

lostDuck said:


> Brian26 did you buy you unit this year? When i bought mine this week Lowes said $599 was with rebate. Are you saying you got another 400 rebate on to top of that. This year CT energy stopped the rebates and made them instant rebates at the store.
> 
> FYI the reason the store clerk said they were selling so well in CT is that people were buying them at 599 in CT and then selling them for 999 in other states that dont have a rebate. Lowes is not validating that you are a CT resident.



I bought it last summer in June or July. I caught it on sale for $900 online with free site to store shipping and used the $400 CLP and $300 federal rebate. So I got a steal on it for $200.  I guess they are instant rebates then now. That is kind of better as you don't have to deal with the paperwork and waiting for the check. They also did mention they have the right to come inspect but they didn't for mine or my mothers. The instant rebate looks to eliminate that hassle. 

I guess its like the LED Cree bulbs that have the instant rebate as well. I saw in the Norwalk store people were buying shopping carts of them when they were at $3.97 a bulb. Probably from New York.

Either way I love mine and you will recoup the cost very quickly with CT's crazy expensive electric prices. Just saw another rate increase is coming. 2nd this year. We might hit .25 a kwh with this one!

I wish I could export data with my Efergy energy monitor. I have been monitoring my Geospring for a awhile now and its crazy how little power these use in heat pump mode. Last 2 days mine used 1.5 kwhs each day.

If they are not checking residency this is a great price and probably worth the drive to people in surrounding states.


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## lostDuck

Brian26 not to derail the conversation but where did you see the .25 a kwh increase. At that rate I may have to look at solar


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## Brian26

lostDuck said:


> Brian26 not to derail the conversation but where did you see the .25 a kwh increase. At that rate I may have to look at solar



I currently pay about .20-.22 kwh through clp. That includes all the distribution charges. The next increase will bring my total kwh cost close to .25kwh. I divide my total kwh usage by my monthly bill. I have been averaging .20-.22 kwh total cost. There was a rate increase on the actual electrical cost and one on the service charges is coming next month. I know you can shop around on the actual electrical part of it but I found most are variable rates and you only get a cheaper price for a few months. It was all over the news recently about people switching then their rates skyrocketing. I get my power directly from clp as their price seems very stable.


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## Seasoned Oak

Still paying about 10c a Kwh  Must  be the nuke plant.


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## BrotherBart

Seasoned Oak said:


> Still paying about 10c a Kwh  Must  be the nuke plant.



All in or just the Kwh piece of the bill? Ignoring the rest including delivery charge mine is 9.4 cents a Kwh. All in it is 12.6.


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## john193

I'm at about 14.5 cents a kWh.


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## Seasoned Oak

BrotherBart said:


> All in or just the Kwh piece of the bill? Ignoring the rest including delivery charge mine is 9.4 cents a Kwh. All in it is 12.6.


About the same 12c. If you include the meter minimum charge which is almost 15% of the bill .
I think my bill is reasonable at about $100 a month ,since i have 2 ref a deep freeze,dishwasher,electric stove,electric dryer and water heater. Numerous computers and tvs going.


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## Highbeam

Seasoned Oak said:


> Still paying about 10c a Kwh  Must  be the nuke plant.


 
We pay less than 10 cents per kwh all in. 1000 kwh for under 100 bucks. Not nuke, well, they say 1% nuke on the bill. Something like 42% hydro. Just got my bill yesterday and compared to the same period last year I am down 25%. It was a little warmer outside but we're doing something right.


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## begreen

Well done Highbeam. We run about $90/month at this time of year. That includes the heat pump and a fan running in the greenhouse for about 6 hrs..


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## Slow1

We are averaging in the 450-500Kwh/month used.  Generating, on average, about 10-15% more than that (averaged over a year) via our panels.  

This brings me to the desire to put in a ASHP water heater - burning oil for that right now.  I've ordered a Nyle Geyser and hope to use that with my existing tank - will see how it works out.  I also was very close to buying a Geospring but don't really want to give up my oil backup and having two tanks seems excessive (although piping to allow bypass of one or the other did cross my mind...).


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## woodgeek

Ok.  If you have a new-ish indirect tank, I can see the Nyle over the geospring.  Your boiler is aok going cold for the summer, or is cold-start?


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## Brian26

Man


BrotherBart said:


> All in or just the Kwh piece of the bill? Ignoring the rest including delivery charge mine is 9.4 cents a Kwh. All in it is 12.6.



Do the math on my bill from Connecticut Light and Power. Cost more just to deliver the power than the actual energy charge.. That's why my Geospring has paid for itself very quickly. They just raised rates for the second time this year. I think we will hit .25kwh by the end of the year...

Has any other geospring users looked into bringing outside air into the unit? Perhaps a dryer vent type setup that pulls in the warm outside air to boost efficiency. My basements stays about 50-60 year round but I notice the shorter run times on the compressor when its a hot day out and its on the higher end.

544 KWH/109.60 .20147 KWH.


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## velvetfoot

Your delivery bill is also likely paying for the big rebate you got on that water heater.


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## Seasoned Oak

ELectric Utilities need not get too ambitious with the prices or they may fuel a big rooftop solar boom and find themselves with too much capacity and fewer customers.


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## Brian26

Seasoned Oak said:


> ELectric Utilities need not get too ambitious with the prices or they may fuel a big rooftop solar boom and find themselves with too much capacity and fewer customers.



Exactly. My neighbor just got solar installed and during the analysis they commented to her that my roof was beyond ideal for it. Basically full sun from 10am on. I am having someone stop by next week to run some numbers. I may generate way more than I actually consume.


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## Slow1

woodgeek said:


> Ok.  If you have a new-ish indirect tank, I can see the Nyle over the geospring.  Your boiler is aok going cold for the summer, or is cold-start?



I'm not sure - I'm assuming the boiler is ok.  It is rather new (5 years old?) - Veissman unit if that tells anyone anything.  I'll be rather annoyed if I have to keep it burning all summer....


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## velvetfoot

Brian26 said:


> Exactly. My neighbor just got solar installed and during the analysis they commented to her that my roof was beyond ideal for it. Basically full sun from 10am on. I am having someone stop by next week to run some numbers. I may generate way more than I actually consume.


Except at night.


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## woodgeek

Slow1 said:


> I'm not sure - I'm assuming the boiler is ok.  It is rather new (5 years old?) - Veissman unit if that tells anyone anything.  I'll be rather annoyed if I have to keep it burning all summer....



The Veissman online brochure makes it look like they only sell condensing oil boilers.  With second stage stainless HX. If yours is like those, you'll be fine!


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## john193

@woodgeek

Question for you. My oil boiler was being used for hot water until I got my new heater. It is now off. We don't plan to use the boiler for heat this season (didn't need it this past season) either. Is there any benefit to running the boiler every once in a while? From what I understanding the water heating coil will gum up from a lack of use eventually. To which I understand that I may need to replace it to bring it back to operation. Any other thoughts to consider?


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## Seasoned Oak

john193 said:


> @woodgeek
> 
> Question for you. My oil boiler was being used for hot water until I got my new heater. It is now off. We don't plan to use the boiler for heat this season (didn't need it this past season) either. Is there any benefit to running the boiler every once in a while? From what I understanding the water heating coil will gum up from a lack of use eventually. To which I understand that I may need to replace it to bring it back to operation. Any other thoughts to consider?


Only hazard i know of is rust if the humidity is high. My boiler will rust if i dont keep the humidity under 65 .My dehumidifier runs al summer. Edit : Sorry i just noticed that ? was directed at woodgeek,sorry for the hijack but i hope it helps.


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## john193

Seasoned Oak said:


> Only hazard i know of is rust if the humidity is high. My boiler will rust if i dont keep the humidity under 65 .My dehumidifier runs al summer. Edit : Sorry i just noticed that ? was directed at woodgeek,sorry for the hijack but i hope it helps.


No worries. I appreciate the input. I figured rust would be my biggest issue.


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## woodgeek

I think the tankless coils clog up from minerals in use....I would guess that only using it in the winter would extend its life (its made of copper).

The boiler?  Assuming its an old school cast iron boiler, I wouldn't worry if the basement was dry.  If not, I prob still wouldn't worry....the darn think is pretty thick. If I did worry, I would either dehumidify, or put a lightbulb under it.


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## Seasoned Oak

I get a pretty good sheet of rust falling off the interior of the boiler if i dont dehumidify to at least 65% .,    My basement hovers around  75%  without
the DH running. I figure year after year i might eventually spring a leak.


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## fbelec

velvetfoot said:


> Your delivery bill is also likely paying for the big rebate you got on that water heater.


right. no company gives away something for nothing


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## john193

velvetfoot said:


> Your delivery bill is also likely paying for the big rebate you got on that water heater.


My utility has an FAQ dedicated to similar questions and they state that the funds come from grants and the state at no extra cost to the customer. The funds are also limited and the program ceases once it runs dry.

Additionally these rebates wouldn't exist if the utility itself also did not benefit. Each utility has a finite capacity and at times of extreme conditions this capacity may be stressed due to inefficient appliances, by moving consumers and businesses to energy efficient appliances the utility preserves it's capacity.  For example, the company I work for has it in the contract that should the utility not be able to provide enough power due to the utilities capacity, they must pay us to run our generators. I doubt my business is the only one.


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## velvetfoot

In NY, rebates come from utility bills.


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## woodgeek

In CT and MA the rebates and audit work are also paid from a utility bill rider.  PA no. That's why the program in PA is less generous...I got a 0% loan for the full cost, rather than a heavily subsidized retrofit.

My sister works for the CT program.


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## joe simmons

I've been looking at geo spring and wondering how much the savings would be monthly ?i don't think I can get any rebates through my electric company it's a coop here in western Pa! Glad to see all this feedback on the geospring!


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## john193

I've had a full month on my electric bill with the unit and my bill went up about 50 kW from the same time last year. A very mild hit to my electric bill.  Mind you this is not a scientific comparison by any means. And I'm sure the unit will be at its peak efficiency during the warmer months since my basement naturally stays warmer. 

Since the unit runs less than I assumed I realize now I was a little naive to assume this could take a big chunk out of my use of a dehumidifier. I still use the dehumidifier but the water heater certainly doesn't hurt the equation.


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## STIHLY DAN

I use hot water for everything in the summer.  dishes, laundry, washing hands, floors, brushing teeth. Just to keep that sucker running, does a great job dehumidifying and less moisture coming of the cold water pipes. I have been running mine almost 2 yrs. paid for itself before it was even installed, now that its running I am saving more than $100 a month. Savings of $1,900 to date and growing.


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## TradEddie

Mine is in a week now. I'm trying it in heat pump only first, I won't switch to hybrid unless I find it necessary, perhaps during the winter.
It is louder than I expected, but not an issue in the basement. Basement air temp drops about 2F after heavy water use recovery cycle, humidity drops 8-10%, lots of condensate. The default setting of 120F is a little cool for me, 128 seems about right. 

As I expected, the real cost is going to be addressing my water neutralizer problems ($2k+) so that I don't rot out this heater in a few years like the previous ones, although it appears that inspecting/replacing the anode is an easy job, unlike the terrible design of the Bradford White. 
Will report back with a few months of bills, I have a dedicated meter for the dryer and water heater so I can quantify any savings a little easier. 

TE


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## STIHLY DAN

There is a 10 year warranty on the tank, and its glass lined so not much to rot. I little info I learned, or forgot the other day After power is interrupted it goes into a 30 min self test. So if you think of running it on a generator during power outages because it only draws 650 watts, DON'T! It runs for 20 mins on electric element at 4,500 watts. oops.


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## TradEddie

STIHLY DAN said:


> There is a 10 year warranty on the tank, and its glass lined so not much to rot. I little info I learned, or forgot the other day After power is interrupted it goes into a 30 min self test. So if you think of running it on a generator during power outages because it only draws 650 watts, DON'T! It runs for 20 mins on electric element at 4,500 watts. oops.



They are all supposed to be "glass lined", but the elements and their connections, and all entry/exit points are just steel (not even stainless, perhaps galvanized). If there was nothing to rust, they wouldn't need a sacrificial anode. I've got serious well water acidity problems, assisted by the previous owner's negligence in maintaining the neutralizer, so we've rusted through 3 glass lined water heaters in less than 12 years, one very spectacularly.  Time to buy a new neutralization system, and keep a regular check on that anode. Warranty specifically does not include replacement of anode, or damage due to water conditions or failure to inspect/replace the anode.

I ran the Geospring through a tough challenge last night. My wife had a bath, followed in less that an hour by one kid's long shower, then mine. My shower was hot enough, but only just. On HP only, I think that was a success.

TE


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## STIHLY DAN

A way to help get more out of it, is install a mixing valve and crank up the heater to 140. I do this in the summer when the wood furnace is not helping it. Also because I want it to run more in the summer. I have 3 teenagers and a hot water whore wife.


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## goldfishcastle

Not sure what winters in southeast PA are like but, are you at all concerned about the increased work load for your heating system?


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## TradEddie

goldfishcastle said:


> Not sure what winters in southeast PA are like but, are you at all concerned about the increased work load for your heating system?


A HPWH isn't recommended to be installed in a conditioned area, but even if it was, the worst that would happen is that the house heating source would be the source for the water heat, so unless the cost/BTU of home heating is higher than the electric, you're not losing. Last winter propane prices were above that threshold, but that's not normally true, and for those with city gas, should never come close.

Ideally the HPWH is in a non-conditioned but well insulated area such as a basement. Even last winter, my basement never fell below 55F, still well above the point of efficient HP heat. Before I insulated and air-sealed, I had frost on the inside of the basement windows.

Update on operating mode, two incidents of running low on hot water since installation, both from the extreme end of normal use, but it is clear that the recovery speed of HP only mode is not sufficient for our normal use patterns. Switched to hybrid last night.

TE


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## john193

goldfishcastle said:


> Not sure what winters in southeast PA are like but, are you at all concerned about the increased work load for your heating system?


This is a point to consider and the manual for the heater also discusses. My unit is installed in my unconditioned basement that typically stays around 55, even last winter. 

The unit is equivalent to a 6k btu air conditioner when running. The manual states NOT to condition a room solely for the heater, because that will decrease your overall efficiency. That loss in efficiency becomes even less if heating with a wood or pellet stove. 

Alternatively, some people will switch from heat pump only to hybrid in the winter to allow the heating elements to do some of the lifting, the idea here being that you still average out a savings when factoring all 4 seasons.


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## goldfishcastle

So these are not installed in the same space as your furnace?


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## john193

goldfishcastle said:


> So these are not installed in the same space as your furnace?


mine is, but my furnace has been turned off.  My basement is completely underground and even when it was -2 out, the basement was right around 55.


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## TradEddie

Same here, mine is in a well insulated, non heated basement, the furnace is there too so there is some incidental heating. 66-68F in Summer, no lower than 55F in Winter. GE claims HP is efficient down to 48F, IIRC. Below that, it's still as efficient than a regular electric heater.
Design-wise, I think it would be great if it could be supplied with external ducting, because in the summer, it would be great to supply it with 80-90F external air, but the commercial reality is that few people want a device that needs to be adjusted each season, and external ducting brings many other costs and problems too.

TE


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## Brian26

I have had my Geospring connected to my Efergy energy monitor for the last week.  I have had the unit for over a year with no issues. I run it in heat pump only mode. It is in my unfinished basement that stays 70-75 in the summer and around 55-60 in the winter.

Quite impressive when analyzing the numbers. I am in CT where electricity is expensive. I think we are the 2nd most expensive state after Hawaii. Currently pay .20-.22 KWH delivered.  Looks to be about $12 a month to heat my hot water. It is just my girlfriend and I so a family will probably be more.

Mine pulls about 500-600 watts when running vs 4500 on a standard element unit. You need to keep in mind the advertising savings is running it in hybrid mode where the elements are used.

I am sure that many members have much cheaper electric rates where you could realistically spend just a few dollars a month.


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## STIHLY DAN

That would be a good comparison test in January. see how much difference 15* really is in $$$


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## woodgeek

Nice.  I figure my HPWH in HP only mode is also costing my ~$15/mo @$0.13/kWh.  But I have two teen/tween daughters.


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## TradEddie

OK, first month update. I have a dedicated meter for my dryer and hot water (and rarely used baseboards). My lowest usage over the past year was 255kWh, it's typically about 300kWh. My first full month with the Geospring was 134kWh.  We were away on vacation in August, but that's still at least 120kWh less than other vacation bills. 

No problems to report, although HP mode was abandoned after about two weeks, the slow recovery just didn't suit our occasionally high demand. No cold showers since switching to hybrid mode, despite valiant efforts by the less energy-conscious.

The rebate came within 3 weeks, that leaves only about $200 additional investment over regular heater, so unless switching to hybrid causes a huge increase in consumption, payback will be less than a year.

TE


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## john193

TradEddie said:


> OK, first month update. I have a dedicated meter for my dryer and hot water (and rarely used baseboards). My lowest usage over the past year was 255kWh, it's typically about 300kWh. My first full month with the Geospring was 134kWh.  We were away on vacation in August, but that's still at least 120kWh less than other vacation bills.
> 
> No problems to report, although HP mode was abandoned after about two weeks, the slow recovery just didn't suit our occasionally high demand. No cold showers since switching to hybrid mode, despite valiant efforts by the less energy-conscious.
> 
> The rebate came within 3 weeks, that leaves only about $200 additional investment over regular heater, so unless switching to hybrid causes a huge increase in consumption, payback will be less than a year.
> 
> TE


Did you use the vacation mode while you were away? I'm curious to hear how the setting worked and if that aided in your savings.


----------



## TradEddie

john193 said:


> Did you use the vacation mode while you were away? I'm curious to hear how the setting worked and if that aided in your savings.


I did, and as I mentioned, I was running in HP only mode for some of that month too. Next month will tell me a lot more. I doubt that vacation mode helps much for a well insulated heater, but for a few extra lines of code on a circuit board, it costs almost nothing either.

TE


----------



## john193

TradEddie said:


> I did, and as I mentioned, I was running in HP only mode for some of that month too. Next month will tell me a lot more. I doubt that vacation mode helps much for a well insulated heater, but for a few extra lines of code on a circuit board, it costs almost nothing either.
> 
> TE


I debated with insulating mine, but haven't yet. I like that it is aidingin the  dehumidification of my basement so I figure let it run?


----------



## TradEddie

There's no point in insulating any reputable modern water heater, they should be well insulated from the factory. Insulating the pipes, OTOH, is a simple, cheap, easy fix.

TE


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Vacation mode just lowers the water temp for X period of time. So there will be savings. Did you install a mixing valve? I turn my geo down in the winter because the furnace helps make hot water. In spring I put it back to 140* the mixing valve is set at 130. That increases the capacity of the tank.


----------



## moey

STIHLY DAN said:


> Vacation mode just lowers the water temp for X period of time. So there will be savings. Did you install a mixing valve? I turn my geo down in the winter because the furnace helps make hot water. In spring I put it back to 140* the mixing valve is set at 130. That increases the capacity of the tank.



If you don't need the extra capacity keeping the tank that high could cost more. Although you may be able to keep it in heat pump only mode with the higher temp settings. Heat pumps are most efficient making water in the 100-120F degree range when you start trying to heat water up to 140F the coefficient of performance goes down for the heat pump.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

moey said:


> If you don't need the extra capacity keeping the tank that high could cost more. Although you may be able to keep it in heat pump only mode with the higher temp settings. Heat pumps are most efficient making water in the 100-120F degree range when you start trying to heat water up to 140F the coefficient of performance goes down for the heat pump.



This is true but we both needed the capacity, and the offset of not using the 4,500 heaters makes up for it. Also I want it to run more in the summer to take advantage of the dehumidification.


----------



## DBCOOPER

I'm interested. Any winter time experience with a 55 degree basement and 40 degree water coming in from outside?


----------



## woodgeek

DBCOOPER said:


> I'm interested. Any winter time experience with a 55 degree basement and 40 degree water coming in from outside?



No.  While the lower inlet water temp will require more energy and time to heat, the efficiency will be higher.  OF course, the lower air temp will probably trump that.


----------



## moey

DBCOOPER said:


> I'm interested. Any winter time experience with a 55 degree basement and 40 degree water coming in from outside?



Depending on the size of your basement it may not stay 55 that would be my concern. The efficiency curves do not drop off much until your below 40F which is when these units shut off the heat pump.


----------



## TradEddie

moey said:


> Depending on the size of your basement it may not stay 55 that would be my concern. The efficiency curves do not drop off much until your below 40F which is when these units shut off the heat pump.


That's good to know, I thought that it would be linear. I'm only a few miles from dbcooper's location, and even last Winter, my basement temperature stayed above 55.  The most I've seen my basement drop due to the Geospring was 2F, and that seems to be rare now that I've switched to hybrid, so those times of heavy hot water use don't result in prolonged HP operation.

TE


----------



## Brian26

August usage from my Efergy unit with my geospring in heat pump only mode. I also included the first week of Sept. Just my wife and I so our water usage is low. Also, keep in mind here in CT electric rates are some of the highest in the nation. 

Even at the full retail cost ($1K) of these they are definetly worth it. I used the local utility and federal rebate to get ours for less than $200.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

With just the 2 of you. I would have figured your daily usage would be more consistent.


----------



## 08specB

I have read the first 2-3 pages of this thread and am currently impressed and interested in this unit. 

My current situation - 

I have a Peerless boiler with a tankless coil which is going bad. The boiler is 10 years old and I will NOT be replacing the coil because I have NO clue when it will go bad again. I was strongly leaning towards a electric hot water heater until I was pointed to this thread by *maple1 *so thank you. 

We just purchased a pellet stove and had it installed last week so I want to use less oil. We used to run our upstairs zone and between just the two of us we used about 3 tanks of oil per year. We have a baby on the way in less than 3 weeks so we need to fix our hot water situation sooner than later. Ideally I would like to put this unit in my furnace room which is located in the finished part of our raised ranch. Since I am in CT I read about Brian26's purchase and its looking more like I will be going with one of these units. I understand now that in CT Lowes just takes $400 off the price and per their website they are $799. Are their any additional rebates on top of that price currently in CT?

EDIT: after calling Energize CT they if I purchase this unit between Sept 18th and Oct 15th I can get an additional $200 at Lowes on top of the $400 making the total cost of the unit before tax $600


----------



## 08specB

After looking into this unit online it appears they get alot of terrible reviews. Specifically reviews regarding error codes and GE tech's charging to have these units fixed. The reviews on the Lowe's website are great but not so much on Amazon and online. Does anyone on here have issues with these units after having them installed/working for years?


----------



## Justin M

I have had mine over a year with no problems.   Most of the bad reviews are of older ones that had Chinese made heat pumps.  The current ones are made in USA.


----------



## woodgeek

The reviews are odd.  IIRC, no one on here has reported a problem with the Geospring, and there are many folks who have been running them for a long time.  Maybe its those Koch bros paying sock-puppets.  

I guess my feeling is figure out the return on investment.  If you are out $600 for the unit, versus $200 for a cheapo conventional, how long does it take you to make back the $400 difference??  At CT rates with a family, I would expect a year or two.  Get the extended warranty, and take a chance it will last at least the (short) payback time.  If it does fail totally in a still disappointing amount of time, e.g. 5 years, oh well get a new HPWH then...they'll have the kinks worked out, and you will still be ahead $$-wise.

FYI, I am at 2.5 years on a different brand of HPWH, zero problems, made 100% in China, and $1000/yr in net oil/kWh savings relative to my old tankless coil. 

Also...the usual question at this point is whether you know you can shut down the boiler all summer, so save on the standby oil usage.  IF yes, you will save a bundle (on AC too).  If no, then the economics are all different.


----------



## john193

The first version of the heater did have issues and unfortunately neither lowes nor the reviewers clarify which generation they are reviewing.

The unit comes with a 10 year warranty in parts and 1 year on labor. Lowes will sell you a labor extension to 10 years for $99.99, a no brainer in my opinion. Also, look into getting a lowes 10% off and if you have a cash back card, use that. At the time my discover card was offering 5% back and that almost nullified my tax. They are 999 in my area with a $400 utility credit. The 10% off coupon basically got me the warranty. I'm very pleased with the unit and have had no issues so far.

Edit, as for GE charging for repairs, this can be the case if you don't follow the clearance requirements for the unit. The heat pump must be accessible for service, otherwise they might charge you to unhook and move the unit before they start work.  You need a 7 inch clearance around the unit and I believe at least as much on top of it.


----------



## Hoozie

Hmm, now this thread has me thinking about the Geosprings.  Mainly because my current water heater was here when we moved in, and lists the national average cost of electricity at 4.7c/kwh.  At 12c/kwh, it says its annual cost is $7xx :-0  It looks like I can get it for $800, before $300ish in rebates, and $600 in state income tax credits.  

It would be going in a small-ish closet in our conditioned space, to which I'd have to add some vents.  We're already looking at getting a humidifier for the winter months, since the wood stove dries everything out pretty well.  Otherwise the heat it uses would me nice in the summer, and come from the wood stove in the winter.

I think it would work pretty well?


----------



## semipro

It won't work well in a closet, at least not with passive venting as you've proposed.  It needs access to a greater volume of air to extract heat from.
Also, venting the closet well would allow the noise of the Geospring to enter your living space.  While not terribly noisy I suspect you'd find it a bother.


----------



## TradEddie

I would never consider the Geospring for a living space, just based on the noise. As loud as a mid range dishwasher, but running much more often. Maybe if you had a nice big laundry room off to the side of the house, but not anywhere near where you'd want to sit, read, talk or watch TV.

TE


----------



## Hoozie

It's that loud?  The closet sits off my office, which has a a computer and a mini-fridge running already.  Although if it's paid for and saves me a few hundred a year, I can put up with quite a bit of noise.  

The install manual I looked through recommended two vents of at least 240"^2 each.  And upon closer reading, the $300 rebate only applies if it's installed in a non-heated area.  Hmm....

Thanks for the feedback!


----------



## TradEddie

It's hard to compare noise, but much more than a fridge or PC, maybe a little less than a clothes dryer, I believe someone previously said about as loud as a dehumidifier, but it's louder than my dehumidifier. Makes sense about the rebate because you lose all efficiency if you have to re-heat the living space air.

TE


----------



## Justin M

Mine make slightly less noise than my dehumidifier.   Don't forget it also requires a condensate drain which could be harder to accomplish in a closet.


----------



## 08specB

After reading the comments above I may look into getting unit afterall and DEF get the extended warranty from Lowe's. I do have a 10% off coupon that my brother sent me so that may be a good thing to use with the purchase. For $100 extra for piece of mine yes it is a no brainer to get the warranty from Lowe's IMO. 

I will though be putting this unit in my furnace room which is a little larger than a closet. I will be putting a vented door on which I hope is enough for this unit and if it is not I will have an outside air vent installed. I have alot of other home issues that I am working on right now like a new roof, kitchen ceiling repair from water damage oh and a baby on the way in less than 2 weeks. If I do get this unit I will try to get it before the $200 rebate goes away in Mid October but I have to first find out from my HVAC guy how much he will charge me to install this thing and bypass the tankless coil.


----------



## TradEddie

Two month update. September meter reading was a solid 150-200 kWh less than a typical non-a/c month. Running in hybrid mode the entire time, no more running short of hot water, despite three members of the house loving long showers, and all the laundry associated with active kids. The new water conditioning system was installed too, so the softer, neutralized water should be a lot less harsh on the heater, so it had better last longer than the last two old-fashioned resistance heaters. 
On a general note, buying the Geospring has allowed me to reach an interim goal of below 10,000kWh/year. While that's still a relatively large consumption even for 4 people, it's more than a 20% reduction over the past few years, and was achieved without sacrificing any device performance or comfort. Realistically now, apart from an imminent high efficiency washer, there's not much more we can do without insisting on shorter showers, changing a/c setpoints, or otherwise sacrificing. I wish we could dry some clothes outside, but the downside of a house surrounded by trees is a huge volume of dirt, dust and pollen in the air at all times of the year. 

TE


----------



## john193

That's great to hear. We just put up a clothesline on a pulley system. Not as convenient as taking one step over to the dryer but we are using it consistently.


----------



## DBCOOPER

Well I hope you guys are right. Just bought one $1059 with military discount and extended warranty. Should get 400 back from PECO. Hope it works as good as its supposed to.


----------



## john193

DBCOOPER said:


> Well I hope you guys are right. Just bought one $1059 with military discount and extended warranty. Should get 400 back from PECO. Hope it works as good as its supposed to.


I had my check within 6 weeks of my install, and I was randomly selected for an in home inspection.


----------



## TradEddie

DBCOOPER said:


> Hope it works as good as its supposed to.



It certainly works as good as its supposed to, possibly better, I just hope it works for as long as its supposed to.

TE


----------



## velvetfoot

Not a Geospring, but my Nyletherm makes more noise than I'd like, but then again, I'd like it to be silent.


----------



## semipro

velvetfoot said:


> Not a Geospring, but my Nyletherm makes more noise than I'd like, but then again, I'd like it to be silent.


Yeah, fan noise is hard to attenuate.  
I wonder what happened with active noise cancellation with respect to fan noise? I recall that was one of the prospective applications.


----------



## DBoon

semipro said:


> I wonder what happened with active noise cancellation with respect to fan noise? I recall that was one of the prospective applications.


It just requires the person who wants active noise cancellation to wear noise cancelling hardware in their ears...


----------



## DBCOOPER

Installed one today. Everything seems to working fine.


----------



## mtrel

DBCOOPER said:


> Installed one today. Everything seems to working fine.


----------



## woodgeek

A boooring way to make money....but make money it will.


----------



## mtrel

I have a question for those who have had there Geosprings for a while.  I installed mine in June and it's been great.   It's been running in heat pump mode since.   As my basement starts getting colder in the winter how do I know when I need to switch to hybrid mode?  Will I start running out of hot water?   Last year my basement got as cold as 57 degrees or so.  Thanks.


----------



## Justin M

mtrel said:


> I have a question for those who have had there Geosprings for a while.  I installed mine in June and it's been great.   It's been running in heat pump mode since.   As my basement starts getting colder in the winter how do I know when I need to switch to hybrid mode?  Will I start running out of hot water?   Last year my basement got as cold as 57 degrees or so.  Thanks.


My basement was in the 50's last winter and it kept up in heat pump only mode no problem.


----------



## woodgeek

Simple.  If you have enough hot water, leave it alone.  If you don't, switch it to hybrid.  Can't answer the question without knowing your usage and usage pattern.

That said, hybrid relies on the heat pump first, and only calls the element if it 'thinks' you are getting close to running out of HW.  IOW, if its judgement is correct, the cost of just switching to hybrid is low....if you are low HW usage, it will never call the element, if you are high HW usage, it will call the element, but in that case you 'need it'.

You're overthinking a bit....57°F doesn't sound that cold to me....IIRC it is good down to 50°F or so.  My guess is that recovery will take 50-100% longer in the winter, between the lower temp air and the lower temp water, but in a lot of scenarios that won't matter.  I.e. there is 50 gals in tank that is good enough for your big daily usage....say two big AM showers, and the recovery happens at noon rather than 10:30, who cares?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I lower my temp in late fall winter. I run 140 in summer for dehumidification, It sits at 125 now. Family of 5 with 3 teenagers.


----------



## Brian26

I have been running mine in heat pump only mode for about a year and a half. My basement stays in the 50s in the winter. I believe the cutoff temp is 45 for Geospring.

I have had mine hooked up to my Efergy energy monitor for the past few months.

Been averaging around $15 a month for hot water. Keep in mind here in CT we pay the 2nd or 3rd highest electric rates.  Around .25-.28 per kwh after all the charges.

Those in warmer climates and with cheaper electric rates will probably cut this in half. These units are the way to go. I don't think you can heat water conventionally cheaper than these. 

I got this unit for basically free from local utility rebates and federal rebates.


----------



## mtrel

Thanks everybody.  I'll leave it in heatpump mode.   I just looked at my October electric bill.   My usage was exactly the same as last year before the Geospring.  It was the first month I could really use to compare since I bought the house a year ago and started my pool filter at the same time I installed the geosping in June.   I'm really liking this thing so far.


----------



## EJL923

I have been on and off these for a while.  I have one problem.

As far as having to have a professional plumber install one, what is the case if you dont have a drain in your basement.  I know there are condensate pumps, but i have nowhere to run one to.  If you ran a tube outside, wouldnt it freeze?


----------



## moey

EJL923 said:


> I have been on and off these for a while.  I have one problem.
> 
> As far as having to have a professional plumber install one, what is the case if you dont have a drain in your basement.  I know there are condensate pumps, but i have nowhere to run one to.  If you ran a tube outside, wouldnt it freeze?



Where does your septic leave the house at? Are there any places you can splice into it? I have a splice for my washer in the basement that is where the condensate pump sends the water too. You could use a 5 gallon bucket but inevitably you may forget someday to empty it.


----------



## DBCOOPER

EJL923 said:


> I have been on and off these for a while.  I have one problem.
> 
> As far as having to have a professional plumber install one, what is the case if you dont have a drain in your basement.  I know there are condensate pumps, but i have nowhere to run one to.  If you ran a tube outside, wouldnt it freeze?



When its that cold out the humidity level is really low so unless you have a real damp basement or running a humidifier it won't be an issue. Use a pump in the summer and a 5 gallon bucket in the winter.


----------



## fbelec

from the pump if you want to drain it outside run your hose over to the outside wall and about a foot away from where it is going to exit run the hose up to the floor above and from there make the hose go down hill thru the hole to the outside keeping the hose running down hill and it should not freeze. at most it will make a ice puddle outside.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

It will not freeze as there will be no condensate. If you get condensate there,  your windows would be dripping with ice on the inside. If its cold enough to freeze outside, then your house is dry. Unless you have umpteen humidifiers going.


----------



## TradEddie

STIHLY DAN said:


> It will not freeze as there will be no condensate. If you get condensate there,  your windows would be dripping with ice on the inside. If its cold enough to freeze outside, then your house is dry. Unless you have umpteen humidifiers going.


That really depends on where his Geospring is located. Many basements are humid from high water table, even in Winter. My basement windows used to have ice on the inside on very cold nights, before I airsealed and insulated.

TE


----------



## EJL923

Yeah, i have a damp basement in the summer.  I suspect it would have some in the winter.  If you want to do it right, i suppose you have to plan on having humidity and go from there.  I dont want to hijack this thread, maybe i should start a new one about the geospring installation.


----------



## woodgeek

My HPWH in my tuck-under garage has a gravity drain to my sump pit.


----------



## DBCOOPER

$400 rebate check showed up today


----------



## dpsfireman

I installed one of these a little more than a month ago as an upgrade replacing a 5 year old electric unit. I did have a problem with the unit initially, the cold water inlet tube was leaking inside the top of the unit where it connects to the actual tank. GE sent someone out to verify the problem (he was not a plumber). GE called after that to ask who my installer was so they could get them to replace the inlet tube under warranty. Since I installed it they offered to send the replacement tubes to me and I could install them. Once I replaced them the leak stopped, interestingly the original tubes were plenty tight enough. I suspect the threads were not cut at the correct angle leaving more of a gap than it should have.

Anyway, for my first bill after installing the unit it was in operation only about 2 weeks and the reduction was quite noticeable. I pulled my monthly usage data from the utility web site and it was my lowest usage in 2 years approximately tied with the usage from August 2013. We have already replace all lighting with energy efficient bulbs (CFL and LED), installed a high efficiency front load washer, have a relatively new refrigerator, installed a Biomass 25 for heat. I had been looking for an alternative for hot water for a while when I found these in this forum.

I had long considered solar but was always turned off by the complexity and cost. I also considered using a heat exchanger with my boiler but did not want to run the boiler in the Summer so that was out. For my situation I think this is about ideal. My boiler in in my basement utility area which is insulated, when I fire the boiler I always ended up with more heat in that area than I wanted (about 75F). Adding the heat pump water heater allows me to recapture some of that heat and put it to good use. My basement is now about 5 degrees cooler but that is perfect.

Really looking forward to seeing my KWH for a full month's usage after Christmas (February)!


----------



## semipro

Well my 1st Gen, blue-top, Chinese built, Geospring is experiencing some problems.  Can't say I wasn't expecting it based on reports by others. 
Came home to no hot water last night.  The GS fan was running but the compressor was not.  I rebooted it the unit and the fan again started but no compressor.  I rapped on the side of the unit and the compressor came on, and I'm assuming, its heating.  

Called both Lowes and GE this morning.  Lowe's said contact the manufacturer.  GE said that I should schedule a service call and that I was responsible for all costs other than parts.  I asked what if I call someone out but the unit doesn't act up.  They said that was my problem.  I mentioned to them that this 1st gen unit was obviously poorly built and problematic.  I offered that they should credit me some money and I'd buy the newer model.  They declined and offered no other options though I made it clear I was open to options.  

So, I've switched the unit to resistance heating mode so we'll have hot water for the holidays.  I'll switch it back to Hybrid later to see if it acts up again.  We now have a very expensive "conventional" hot water heater ($1400).  I suspect a class-action lawsuit is coming.  I've very disappointed with GE.  They had a chance to gain a devoted customer and passed it by.


----------



## woodgeek

when did you install?


----------



## semipro

woodgeek said:


> when did you install?


Jan. 2011.


----------



## fbelec

yikes semipro. 2011. if you are going to have to pay anyway could you troubleshoot and they send you the part or parts? just wired one a few days ago. got back to the job and the woman was complaining that she couldn't get two showers out of the 50 gal geo but could from the 50 gal reg electric type. so the plumber turned it up to 130 degrees. she got out of the shower 20 minutes earlier and the unit was still running 1 to 1.5 hours after. is that normal with yours? if you are going to have to pay anyway could you troubleshoot and they send you the part or parts?


----------



## BrotherBart

Yeah that is the story they gave me on my conventional super duper energy saving water heater with the crappy control board. That I could see online was giving everybody grief and they were denying. They told me that they weren't aware of any problem. Told them that I didn't buy it from them, I bought it from Lowe's so they were the one I would file the small claims court suit against. 

Miraculously a new control board landed on my porch three days later and has been working for four years.


----------



## DBCOOPER

fbelec said:


> yikes semipro. 2011. if you are going to have to pay anyway could you troubleshoot and they send you the part or parts? just wired one a few days ago. got back to the job and the woman was complaining that she couldn't get two showers out of the 50 gal geo but could from the 50 gal reg electric type. so the plumber turned it up to 130 degrees. she got out of the shower 20 minutes earlier and the unit was still running 1 to 1.5 hours after. is that normal with yours? if you are going to have to pay anyway could you troubleshoot and they send you the part or parts?



Yes that is normal for mine running in heat pump only mode.


----------



## semipro

fbelec said:


> yikes semipro. 2011. if you are going to have to pay anyway could you troubleshoot and they send you the part or parts? just wired one a few days ago. got back to the job and the woman was complaining that she couldn't get two showers out of the 50 gal geo but could from the 50 gal reg electric type. so the plumber turned it up to 130 degrees. she got out of the shower 20 minutes earlier and the unit was still running 1 to 1.5 hours after. is that normal with yours? if you are going to have to pay anyway could you troubleshoot and they send you the part or parts?



I'd be willing to install the parts myself especially if they are improved over the original stuff. It would likely require freon evac.and recharging though and although I have the know-how to do that I no longer have the tools.  

Yeah, these things will run for a while in HP mode.  Of course, the total power used is much less than that of resistance heating. It has a "heavy use" mode that you can put it in for faster recovery like when you have guests over. 

The Geosping is well engineered and thought out.  Too bad GE took the low road and built it in China. 

If GE doesn't come through somehow I'm thinking I'll just call it a loss and invest in a Nyletherm or Geyser.


----------



## fbelec

what is the money difference between the geo and the  Nyletherm or Geyser?


----------



## semipro

A new Geospring is about $1300.  Tom of Maine had some Nyletherms on Ebay for $350 but he's down to one left.  
I don't want to replace the Geospring if I don't have to.


----------



## semipro

sloeffle said:


> He should have two now.  I had to ship mine back because I was having stratification issues with my Marathon.


I would appreciate hearing more about the stratification sometime.


----------



## sloeffle

semipro said:


> I would appreciate hearing more about the stratification sometime.


I will send you a PM sometime over the next couple days.

Have a good holiday.


----------



## DBCOOPER

semipro said:


> Well my 1st Gen, blue-top, Chinese built, Geospring is experiencing some problems.  Can't say I wasn't expecting it based on reports by others.
> Came home to no hot water last night.  The GS fan was running but the compressor was not.  I rebooted it the unit and the fan again started but no compressor.  I rapped on the side of the unit and the compressor came on, and I'm assuming, its heating.
> 
> Called both Lowes and GE this morning.  Lowe's said contact the manufacturer.  GE said that I should schedule a service call and that I was responsible for all costs other than parts.  I asked what if I call someone out but the unit doesn't act up.  They said that was my problem.  I mentioned to them that this 1st gen unit was obviously poorly built and problematic.  I offered that they should credit me some money and I'd buy the newer model.  They declined and offered no other options though I made it clear I was open to options.
> 
> So, I've switched the unit to resistance heating mode so we'll have hot water for the holidays.  I'll switch it back to Hybrid later to see if it acts up again.  We now have a very expensive "conventional" hot water heater ($1400).  I suspect a class-action lawsuit is coming.  I've very disappointed with GE.  They had a chance to gain a devoted customer and passed it by.




So you bought a water heater with a one year parts and labor warranty and 10 year parts only warranty.  It runs ok for 5 years and then has some type of malfunction. The manufacturer say labor is on you. You say what if nothing is wrong do I still have to pay? Then you ask for a credit to buy a new one and they said no. Were you offered an extended warranty at the time of purchase?


----------



## semipro

DBCOOPER said:


> So you bought a water heater with a one year parts and labor warranty and 10 year parts only warranty.  It runs ok for 5 years and then has some type of malfunction. The manufacturer say labor is on you. You say what if nothing is wrong do I still have to pay? Then you ask for a credit to buy a new one and they said no. Were you offered an extended warranty at the time of purchase?


Pretty much although something is wrong and after 4 years not 5. The problem occurs intermittently and I would be stuck paying for the service call where the outcome could well be the repair person saying "its not acting up now so there's nothing I can do".
I feel that extended warranties are a scam and that manufacturers have replaced quality design and manufacturing.with the proffering of insurance against premature failure. Were I the only one experiencing problems I wouldn't be so adamant about this.  However, extensive issues with the quality of this model are well documented.  As it stands now I may have paid over $300/year for "rental" of this water heater.  I, like many others, purchased this unit with cost versus benefit in mind.  If the things are only going to last 4 years that really skews the payoff results.

As an update: I posted essentially what I posted initially here to GE's website as a review of the unit and GE moderators have censored it.  I can't say I'm surprised. The mods request you revise and resubmit but don't provide instructions on how to do this and its not readily apparent on their website.

I'm shopping for a clothes washer for my mother in law for Christmas.  Think I"m considering GE...think again.


----------



## capecod

sloeffle said:


> He should have two now.  I had to ship mine back because I was having stratification issues with my Marathon.


When I spoke toTon (Nyletherm) fromMaine, he told me I could not return it. Did he tell you differently. Thx


----------



## woodgeek

I'm sympathetic semipro.  4 years is disappointing, but in the meantime you _do_ have a working 'conventional' HWH running on the element.  At my usage levels I would figure I saved $200-300/year versus elec conventional and in 4 years that is 800-1200 in savings to date, prob in excess of the upcharge on the unit over a conventional tank.  Not all early adopters are so lucky.

Can you get a decent install/service manual for this unit from the interbloobs or GE?  If it is just a controller board or sensor, I am sure you can fix it yourself.  If its the compressor....well that's another story.


----------



## fbelec

not sure if this is the case now but i have seen lugs on a compressor for the wiring to connect. i've had a service call to troubleshoot a condenser when i got there the fan was running but no compressor. whi look into the problem i found the lug a crimp on connector was loose and carboned up. with help from my friend the wire brush i was able to clean and attach a new crimp on and they were on their way


----------



## Brian26

I have always had mine in heat pump only mode since the install almost 2 years ago. I put it on hybrid/high demand as we had family over for the holidays and were using a ton of hot water. Turns out the elements might be bad. Was throwing code f-9/f10. Looked up the codes and it says check upper or lower element.

Switched it back to heat pump only and have been fine. I do have the extended warranty from Lowes and might call it in. Regardless this unit has already paid for itself. I installed it for practically nothing after local utility rebates and federal tax credits.

It draws 560 watts in heat pump mode vs 4500 running the elements.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

650 watts. splitting hairs. Also it is good to run the elements every few months for a bit, help keep the corrosion off them.


----------



## bemental

woodgeek said:


> I'm sympathetic semipro.  4 years is disappointing, but in the meantime you _do_ have a working 'conventional' HWH running on the element.  At my usage levels I would figure I saved $200-300/year versus elec conventional and in 4 years that is 800-1200 in savings to date, prob in excess of the upcharge on the unit over a conventional tank.  Not all early adopters are so lucky.
> 
> Can you get a decent install/service manual for this unit from the interbloobs or GE?  If it is just a controller board or sensor, I am sure you can fix it yourself.  If its the compressor....well that's another story.



semi, you got a local college/community college or HVAC program nearby? At this rate I'd call in and see what they could do with your unit, especially if you're able to provide the parts for them. Who knows, professor might be interested in assigning a special project to a student in need of some extra credit...


----------



## Brian26

Had a minor issue with mine. I have only ran it in heat pump only mode since I installed it about 1.5 years ago. No issues until now. It;s already paid for itself. Here in CT i got a 400 federal and 400 local utility rebate and purchased it at lowes on sale for $900. So cost me about $100 and installed it myself. Saved me a fortune so far as it draws 575 watts in heat pump mode per my Effergy whole house energy monitor vs the 4500 watt unit it replaced. I have probably saved hundreds since I installed it. I also have the 10 year warranty from lowes.

Around the holidays we had many guests over and a large hot water demand. I switched the setting to high demand and it started beeping and giving a F9/F10 error. I looked up the code and it says to check upper and lower element. Perhaps its because I never actually ran the elements from the start. If I reset it the heat pump will kick in and I will have hot water but within 24 hours it will throw the code.

I tested the upper and lower elements with my meter. It appears the lower element is shorted as I got no continuity when testing.

Will call GE on Monday as the water heater line is closed on the weekends. Hopefully they will send a new element. If they give me a hard time I can purchase one online for $11.75. It appears to use a common GE electric element. I am sure I could call in Lowes with the extended warranty to cover it but its probably not worth the hassle over a $11.75 part that I can quickly change myself.

Edit: Just saw this post above. Perhaps this is what happened as I have had it in heat pump only mode since the start. Don't think the elements ever really were used.

650 watts. splitting hairs. Also it is good to run the elements every few months for a bit, help keep the corrosion off them.


----------



## Brian26

On a related note. You can currently purchase one in CT for $599 at any Lowes. It appears they are including the $400 utility rebate instantly on the purchase. My brother in law from Massachusetts purchased one in CT and took it back to Mass and installed it. That is almost half the msrp price of $1200.

The reviews on Lowes have been stellar. Almost 5 stars out of 749 reviews. I think they fixed the issues with the earlier versions and the newer versons seems to be a solid product  with practically no issues.


----------



## john193

@Brian26 after reading your post I just switched mine to electric.  Showers are to be had soon, which will trigger the unit on, so I will monitor what happens.  Mine has been on heat pump mode since day 1, except for the 30 min or so it used the coils when it was first turned on.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Just shutting power off to it will put it in test mode which will test each part individually. I actually don't like that feature because it doesn't allow you to run it on a generator at 650 watts.


----------



## Brian26

STIHLY DAN said:


> Just shutting power off to it will put it in test mode which will test each part individually. I actually don't like that feature because it doesn't allow you to run it on a generator at 650 watts.



If the startup test fails for an element test  the heat pump will still run. Seems it has some kind of software programming to kick the heat pump on despite a failed element at startup. I have had a bad lower element that  required me to restart the unit every so often and it kicked back on in heat pump only with no issues. In a jam you could just disconnect the elements and the unit will stick kick the heat pump on. 

Recently had a bad element on mine. In fact I have always ran it in heat pump only mode since day one and never actually used the elements. Seem my post above where I switched it to high demand during the holidays as I had very high hot water usage.

I tested the lower element and it was bad. Not continuity with my meter. The unit will still revert to heat pump mode with a bad element. So I guess you could disconnecte your elements and run it on generator power.

When I called GE about my bad element. They sent out 2 new ones for free no questions asked. The tech I talked to mentioned they had similar issues with people who ran their units it heat pump only mode from day one.

The suggestion was to make sure the elements were used at least a few times a month.

Those running in heat pump only mode. I suggest running them.


----------



## Brian26

Got around to changing my elements. Man were they in bad shape. I never used them so perhaps this why they looks so bad. The ones ge sent out for replacement were much thicker and double the element. I flushed the tank and inspected the anode rod and everything was clean. I am on city water so dont have any water hardness issues. 

For those running in heat pump only mode I suggest firing up the elements every now and then. I think they might need to run every now and then to keep them in good condition. Perhaps GE used a cheap element considering the one they sent me was much better quality.


----------



## velvetfoot

Brian26 said:


> I am on city water so dont have any water hardness issues.


That didn't make any difference last place we lived; it came from wells.  My well now w/o the softener on is 1/3 the hardness of that city water.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Soft water is actually worse.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Brian26 said:


> Got around to changing my elements. Man were they in bad shape. I never used them so perhaps this why they looks so bad. The ones ge sent out for replacement were much thicker and double the element. I flushed the tank and inspected the anode rod and everything was clean. I am on city water so dont have any water hardness issues.
> 
> For those running in heat pump only mode I suggest firing up the elements every now and then. I think they might need to run every now and then to keep them in good condition. Perhaps GE used a cheap element considering the one they sent me was much better quality.



Brian, where was the anode? Cold water inlet? I have had one on order for a year now at the supply house.


----------



## fbelec

last time i seen a element twisted up like that the guy ran the tank without water. turned it on. maybe ge tested the thing and had it on to long.


----------



## Brian26

STIHLY DAN said:


> Brian, where was the anode? Cold water inlet? I have had one on order for a year now at the supply house.



On the top of the unit. Just have to remove the top cover and use a socket to remove it. They suggest checking it every 3 years. The manual has the instructions on how to check it. GE also claims it is a 10 year anode. Mine looked fine and was still practically new. They give you the specs to check the wear on it in the manual.


----------



## Brian26

fbelec said:


> last time i seen a element twisted up like that the guy ran the tank without water. turned it on. maybe ge tested the thing and had it on to long.



The manual says on startup it has some dry fire algorithm. It runs the heat pump for ten minutes and checks the temperature rise to confirm there is water in the tank. I basically never used the elements. Heat pump only mode since day 1. Maybe they need to be used or will good bad. Perhaps they need to burn of some deposits or something.


----------



## DBCOOPER

My Geospring start up instructions


Turning on the water heater.
The first time you press the power button and the
water heater is powered on, the screen will ask
for confirmation that the tank has been filled with
water. The tank must be full of water before the
heater is turned on to prevent damage.
The water heater warranty does not cover damage
or failure resulting from operation with an empty
or partially empty tank. (Refer to the Certificate
of Limited Warranty for complete terms and
conditions.)
If the tank has NOT been filled, vent and fill tank
with water before pressing the
POWER button again.
•
Make sure the drain valve is completely closed.
•
Open the shut-off valve in the cold water supply
line.
•
Open each hot water faucet slowly to allow the
air to vent from the water heater and piping.
•
A steady flow of water from the hot water
faucet(s) indicates a full water heater.
After the tank has been filled with water, press the
POWER
button again


----------



## semipro

Brian26 said:


> Brian, where was the anode? Cold water inlet? I have had one on order for a year now at the supply house.





Brian26 said:


> On the top of the unit. Just have to remove the top cover and use a socket to remove it. They suggest checking it every 3 years. The manual has the instructions on how to check it. GE also claims it is a 10 year anode. Mine looked fine and was still practically new. They give you the specs to check the wear on it in the manual.


 
These can be a real bear to remove so inspecting it every 3 years is probably a good idea just to keep the threads from seizing too badly.


----------



## semipro

Just came across this at the EcoRenovator forum.  
Its a duct kit for the red top Geosprings, sold by GE.  
http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/GVK8HS


----------



## john193

That's great. Would be ideal for southern states where you can pump the exhaust into conditioned space.


----------



## Brian26

semipro said:


> Just came across this at the EcoRenovator forum.
> Its a duct kit for the red top Geosprings, sold by GE.
> http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/GVK8HS



Going to call GE on Monday. It says to call GE to order. There is so much potential with the duct kit.

If I could pull outside air in the summer into mine I think I would cut the compressor run time in half. In the winter I could have it draw warm air from my upper level and exhaust outside. Maybe utilize my dryer vent that is located right next to it that currently blowing hot air outside.

On a related note I came across an interesting article on these on how the earlier units where made in China that were known for problems. They are now made here in America and talking with a friend of a friend who is GE appliance technician said they are really solid with little to no issues showing up.

The compressor/refrigeration on mine appears to be an Embraco from Brazil. Embraco makes extremely reliable compressors based on my work experience with water fountains. 

https://operationsroom.wordpress.co...ging-appliance-manufacturing-back-from-china/

« Can a basketball team sell empty seats after the game starts?
Apple replaces queues with a lottery »
*Why is GE bringing appliance manufacturing back from China?*
December 6, 2012 by Marty Lariviere

The cover of this month’s *Atlantic* proclaims Comeback Why the future of industry is in America. It features two articles (The Insourcing Boom and Mr. China Comes to America) on how companies are “insourcing,” moving production back from other parts of the globe (primarily China) to the States. They make some interesting points. The Insourcing Boom focuses on General Electric’s decision decision to repatriate a significant amount of its appliance manufacturing to Louisville, Kentucky. Before you dismiss this as a bit of window dressing to provide some political cover, you should know that Jeff Immelt and company are dropping $800 million to make this happen. I’m sure Mr. Immelt likes political cover and good press as much as the next CEO, but he didn’t get to be head of GE by spending nearly a billion dollars on a whim. They really believe that they can make this work.

The article points out several factors that have come to favor producing in the US.

At Appliance Park, this model of production—designed at home, produced abroad—had been standard for years. For the GeoSpring [water heater], it seemed both a victory and a vulnerability. The GeoSpring is an innovative product in a mature category—and offshore production, from the start, appeared to provide substantial cost savings. But making it in China also meant risking that it might be knocked off. And so in 2009, even as they were rolling it out, the folks at Appliance Park were doing the math on bringing it home.

Even then, changes in the global economy were coming into focus that made this more than just an exercise—changes that have continued to this day.


Oil prices are three times what they were in 2000, making cargo-ship fuel much more expensive now than it was then.
The natural-gas boom in the U.S. has dramatically lowered the cost for running something as energy-intensive as a factory here at home. (Natural gas now costs four times as much in Asia as it does in the U.S.)
In dollars, wages in China are some five times what they were in 2000—and they are expected to keep rising 18 percent a year.
American unions are changing their priorities. Appliance Park’s union was so fractious in the ’70s and ’80s that the place was known as “Strike City.” That same union agreed to a two-tier wage scale in 2005—and today, 70 percent of the jobs there are on the lower tier, which starts at just over $13.50 an hour, almost $8 less than what the starting wage used to be.
U.S. labor productivity has continued its long march upward, meaning that labor costs have become a smaller and smaller proportion of the total cost of finished goods. You simply can’t save much money chasing wages anymore.
That’s a compelling list but all in one or another come around to saying that the US is cheaper (or China is more expensive) than you would have thought. But the article also makes the case that there are further benefits.

Let’s start with responding to market demand.

Time-to-market has also improved, greatly. It used to take five weeks to get the GeoSpring water heaters from the factory to U.S. retailers—four weeks on the boat from China and one week dockside to clear customs. Today, the water heaters—and the dishwashers and refrigerators—move straight from the manufacturing buildings to Appliance Park’s warehouse out back, from which they can be delivered to Lowe’s and Home Depot. Total time from factory to warehouse: 30 minutes.

This speed has several benefits. First, reducing pipeline inventory from over a month to under a day frees up a pile of cash as working capital is no longer sitting in containers on the Pacific. Second, it makes planning easier. Adjusting to the pace of the housing recovery (or lack thereof) is a lot easier when production volume coming into the warehouse can be adjusted in a matter of days as opposed to a matter of months. Finally, this should allow greater flexibility in modifying product design as engineering changes can move right into the supply chain.

The article also emphasizes the benefits of interaction between design, engineering, and manufacturing.

GE hadn’t made a water heater in the United States in decades. In all the recent years the company had been tucking water heaters into American garages and basements, it had lost track of how to actually make them.

The GeoSpring in particular, Nolan says, has “a lot of copper tubing in the top.” Assembly-line workers “have to route the tubes, and they have to braze them—weld them—to seal the joints. How that tubing is designed really affects how hard or easy it is to solder the joints. And how hard or easy it is to do the soldering affects the quality, of course. And the quality of those welds is literally the quality of the hot-water heater.” Although the GeoSpring had been conceived, designed, marketed, and managed from Louisville, it was made in China, and, Nolan says, “We really had zero communications into the assembly line there.” …

The GeoSpring suffered from an advanced-technology version of “IKEA Syndrome.” It was so hard to assemble that no one in the big room wanted to make it. Instead they redesigned it. The team eliminated 1 out of every 5 parts. It cut the cost of the materials by 25 percent. It eliminated the tangle of tubing that couldn’t be easily welded. By considering the workers who would have to put the water heater together—in fact, by having those workers right at the table, looking at the design as it was drawn—the team cut the work hours necessary to assemble the water heater from 10 hours in China to two hours in Louisville.

In the end, says Nolan, not one part was the same.

So a funny thing happened to the GeoSpring on the way from the cheap Chinese factory to the expensive Kentucky factory: The material cost went down. The labor required to make it went down. The quality went up. Even the energy efficiency went up.

GE wasn’t just able to hold the retail sticker to the “China price.” It beat that price by nearly 20 percent. The China-made GeoSpring retailed for $1,599. The Louisville-made GeoSpring retails for $1,299.​


----------



## TradEddie

Six-month / midwinter update:
Typical monthly savings for four people are about 180kWh, or $360/yr. With basement temperatures bottomed out at 55F, there is no noticeable increase in electrical consumption. 
If anyone gets a price on that ducting cowl, post up, I might be tempted if it wasn't outrageous.

TE


----------



## DBCOOPER

Instructions....

http://products.geappliances.com/Ma.../Dispatcher?RequestType=PDF&Name=49-50304.pdf


----------



## woodgeek

TradEddie said:


> Six-month / midwinter update:
> Typical monthly savings for four people are about 180kWh, or $360/yr. With basement temperatures bottomed out at 55F, there is no noticeable increase in electrical consumption.
> If anyone gets a price on that ducting cowl, post up, I might be tempted if it wasn't outrageous.
> 
> TE



Think you dropped a '0' on the kWh saved.  My tuck-under garage runs 45-50°F in Jan/Feb, but my AOSmith in there still runs in HP most of the time.


----------



## maple1

woodgeek said:


> Think you dropped a '0' on the kWh saved.  My tuck-under garage runs 45-50°F in Jan/Feb, but my AOSmith in there still runs in HP most of the time.


 

I think that's right - 180kwh/mo = $360/yr, +/-?


----------



## STIHLY DAN

TradEddie said:


> Six-month / midwinter update:
> Typical monthly savings for four people are about 180kWh, or $360/yr. With basement temperatures bottomed out at 55F, there is no noticeable increase in electrical consumption.
> If anyone gets a price on that ducting cowl, post up, I might be tempted if it wasn't outrageous.
> 
> TE



compared to what?


----------



## TradEddie

STIHLY DAN said:


> compared to what?


I've got two meters on my house, one is legacy off-peak meter than only supplies my hot water, dryer and rarely used baseboard heaters, so it's very easy to see the drastic reduction in that portion of my bill since the Geospring was installed, and there has been no noticeable rebound as basement temperatures have dropped. It's hard to make exact month on month comparisons because of variations due to visitors, vacation etc., but my highest bill since July is lower than any bill in the previous12 months.

TE


----------



## woodgeek

STIHLY DAN said:


> compared to what?



Typical numbers for a family savings from a HPWH relative to a conventional elect WH (e.g. a Marathon) are 2000 kWh/yr or $300.  In line with TradEddie numbers if you add a '0' the kWh figure.


----------



## maple1

woodgeek said:


> Typical numbers for a family savings from a HPWH relative to a conventional elect WH (e.g. a Marathon) are 2000 kWh/yr or $300.  In line with TradEddie numbers if you add a '0' the kWh figure.


 
Yes, but his kwh number was monthly, not yearly. So his numbers are good, I think.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

TradEddie said:


> I've got two meters on my house, one is legacy off-peak meter than only supplies my hot water, dryer and rarely used baseboard heaters, so it's very easy to see the drastic reduction in that portion of my bill since the Geospring was installed, and there has been no noticeable rebound as basement temperatures have dropped. It's hard to make exact month on month comparisons because of variations due to visitors, vacation etc., but my highest bill since July is lower than any bill in the previous12 months.
> 
> TE


 I meant compared to what kind of heater? I went from an oil tankless coil and save around $1,200.00 a yr.


----------



## Brian26

It looks like a new model is coming out first quarter of 2015. Looks to be charcoal colored.  It looks like the new unit will run the compressor down to 35 degrees compared to the current 45 degree shutoff..  They are also releasing an 80 gallon unit.

http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/water-heater-reseller.htm


----------



## STIHLY DAN

My units over  2 yrs old and is charcoal color. I think the difference in colors is to tell between retail stores and supply houses. Also everything has to change in march as that's when the governments mandated efficiencies comes to play. All water heaters will have to have another inch of insulation all around. And any electric water heater over 45 gal must be a hp.


----------



## TradEddie

I had a regular resistance water heater before the Geospring. My apologies for the confusing way I expressed my savings. I'm saving at least 180kWh each monthly bill, which is about $360 each year. With the PECO rebate, installation of the Geospring cost me $300 more than my previous water heater, so that's less than one year payback, provided the Geospring lifespan is comparable. 

TE


----------



## woodgeek

no worries.  I'm dense.


----------



## woodgeek

OK, woke up Tuesday with luke HW, went to check on the unit and it was a brick.  Breaker was ok, and no signs of life in the unit.

AOSmith 80 gallon Voltex HPWH, installed May 2012.  MSRP: $2100

Opened it up, no obvious faults determined unit was getting 240V.

Called AOS service number, and they asked me to get my tools and a meter, and we did a little troubleshooting on the phone.  Fuses on control board were blown....I bought replacements, and those blew too in 2 secs.  Called AOS back, and once I checked that the board had 240V, and no status LEDs lit, they 'called' the board as bad and fedexed me a new board.  I had hot water 36 hours after it went down, and I'm only out the cost of the fuses....<$3.  

A bad control board can happen to anyone....we had a 'wicked' power surge last year...my empty outlets were arcing for a second despite my whole house surge suppressor....which exploded.  Who knows....I've had a lot of electronics go south in the last year.


----------



## john193

What do you use for a whole house surge suppressor. An Amazon search leads to an overwhelming number of products...


----------



## fbelec

woodgeek that sounds like a lightning strike or a transformer let go and stuffed it's primary voltage into it's secondary lines. normally a electrical inspector would shut the house down until a electrician with a mega meter could come in and test out all the house wiring.


----------



## woodgeek

Can't find the part number now....it was one that takes up two breaker slots in the main panel, with just an LED on each to show that its connected.

The surge was from a transformer explosion during an ice storm, and it was clearly just feeding my whole neighborhood the high voltage grid feed for a second or two.  I'd be more worried about the house wiring if anything had been blown promptly (other than the surge supp on the panel)

The HPWH prob just had a defective board...but I'll never know if the two events are related.


----------



## john193

woodgeek said:


> Can't find the part number now....it was one that takes up two breaker slots in the main panel, with just an LED on each to show that its connected.



this is what I was looking at as well.  Can I use 2 existing 20 amp single pole breakers for one of these surge protectors, or does it need its dedicated breakers?  Is it even code installing it into existing breakers?

what are you thoughts on something like this?

http://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG...0&sr=8-1&keywords=whole+house+surge+protector


----------



## woodgeek

Mine took up two slots, but I had several open.  If you are out of slots, you might consider a different unit.

As for specs...not an expert.


----------



## Clarkbug

STIHLY DAN said:


> And any electric water heater over 45 gal must be a hp.



I thought it was any heater over 55 gallons...  http://www.hotwater.com/naeca/


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Clarkbug said:


> I thought it was any heater over 55 gallons...  http://www.hotwater.com/naeca/



You are correct, I was mistaken.


----------



## TonyVideo

I bought a whole house surge protector from Duke. It goes in before the meter itself. It has a red LED on the side and if it goes out it tells me it needs replaced. I have had it 5 years and still working fine.


----------



## Cranky64

Any idea on how much this kit cost? I have an 80 gallon unit that resides under my stairs on the first floor I want to replace. The closet is 3x4 with a 8 foot ceiling. I was thinking that I could just use the intake part of this kit and vet it to a resister that will pull air from our dining room and install a louvered door on the closet. Since i run my pellet stove 24x7 for 5 months of the year we obviously are numb to background noise.   There currently is a $500 utility rebate, but I think the federal tax credit is gone. 



semipro said:


> Just came across this at the EcoRenovator forum.
> Its a duct kit for the red top Geosprings, sold by GE.
> http://products.geappliances.com/appliance/gea-specs/GVK8HS


----------



## semipro

Cranky64 said:


> Any idea on how much this kit cost?


No.  I haven't seen a price yet. 
I'd be wary of noise transmitted through the duct work.  We run a pellet stove too which does make the HPWH noise seem more tolerable.


----------



## Cranky64

I just grabbed one of these at Lowes. The could not find how to add the extended warranty, so I took it without.


----------



## Cranky64

We finally got it installed. I'm starting out with 2 8x30 inch grills in the walls one high above the door and one low and on the side wall. So far I think this setup is working because I can feel the cool air spilling out of the bottom grill. Temps on the outside of the grills from an IR thermometer read 72 for the high grill and 55 for the low grill.


----------



## Ashful

STIHLY DAN said:


> ...when the governments mandated efficiencies comes to play. ... any electric water heater over 45 gal must be a hp.


I guess what I don't understand here is that, if that condenser is placed within the heated envelope of your dwelling in a cold-weather climate, you're not going to see efficiency above the electric water heater for the entire heating season.  Cooling season, even in a moderate mid-Atlantic climate, doesn't usually amount to much (our air conditioning bills are insignificant, compared to our heating bills).  I would venture to guess the added manufacturing and maintenance of the hp probably swamps the savings in any northern climate, unless the condenser is moved outdoors.  You're stealing heat from your house to gain efficiency, which must be replaced by your boiler or HP.


----------



## Cranky64

I'm the opposite, my summer electric bills easily double my winter bills.


----------



## woodgeek

Ashful said:


> I guess what I don't understand here is that, if that condenser is placed within the heated envelope of your dwelling in a cold-weather climate, you're not going to see efficiency above the electric water heater for the entire heating season.  Cooling season, even in a moderate mid-Atlantic climate, doesn't usually amount to much (our air conditioning bills are insignificant, compared to our heating bills).  I would venture to guess the added manufacturing and maintenance of the hp probably swamps the savings in any northern climate, unless the condenser is moved outdoors.  You're stealing heat from your house to gain efficiency, which must be replaced by your boiler or HP.



This would be true if your space heating was electric resistance, that is, very expensive.  In practice, most folks space heat is cheaper  per BTU than electric resistance, and you still save money in the winter relative to a conventional elec tank.  If the space is a basement or attached garage (like mine) that is 'semi-conditioned' it can do better....stealing BTUs that would have been leaked to the earth/outdoors anyway.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Ashful said:


> I guess what I don't understand here is that, if that condenser is placed within the heated envelope of your dwelling in a cold-weather climate, you're not going to see efficiency above the electric water heater for the entire heating season.  Cooling season, even in a moderate mid-Atlantic climate, doesn't usually amount to much (our air conditioning bills are insignificant, compared to our heating bills).  I would venture to guess the added manufacturing and maintenance of the hp probably swamps the savings in any northern climate, unless the condenser is moved outdoors.  You're stealing heat from your house to gain efficiency, which must be replaced by your boiler or HP.



My basement in the winter drops 2 degrees running this. Wont cost much to heat the basement up 2 degrees, but we don't heat the basement. Also as I am in the northern climate, going from oil to electric hot water my electric bill went down an average of $10 a month from april till November. That's free hot water plus $70 saved. The other 5 months the bill went up $15 a month. So I would pay $5 a year for hot water.


----------



## mithesaint

I just wanted to check in with a little report on my Geospring, and my electric bill observations.

For the winter of 2013-2014, I had a 17 year old propane water heater, and was heating my house primarily with my pellet stove, which was on the main level in the center of the house.  I'm not exactly sure how much propane I used for heating water, but I was estimating I was spending $50-60/month for hot water.  The basement was unheated.  From December 2013- March 2014, I used 5500 Kwh.

In July of 2014, I had a Geospring installed in place of the old propane heater.  In addition, I also installed a multifuel furnace into the utility area of the basement, about 10 feet away from the Geospring.  There is also a dehumidifier in that room, and it runs quite a bit.  

From December 2014-march 2015, I used 5096 Kwh.  So, the addition of the Geospring and the multifuel furnace actually managed to somehow lower my electric bills overall.  Add in the $50/month I saved on propane by ditching the old water heater, and it looks pretty good.  I'm not exactly sure where the difference came from.  I think the biggest change was that the dehumidifier ran less often due to the Geospring, and I think the heaters in my aquarium didn't have to work as hard due to that part of the house being warmer, thanks to the furnace.  

I know that the previous winter was a bit colder, but I think that was offset by the switch to the furnace and it's much larger blower.  Anyway, that's my story.  YMMV.


----------



## woodgeek

Thanks.  The same analysis over the coming summer could show even bigger savings.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

I will bet money on that. My biggest savings are in the summer.


----------



## billb3

Brian26 said:


> *Why is GE bringing appliance manufacturing back from China?*
> December 6, 2012 by Marty Lariviere
> 
> ​



 also 6 yuan to the dollar vs 7 yuan to the dollar


----------



## Clarkbug

Bumping the thread to see if anyone has one of the new Geosprings?  There is a revision to the red top that now allows it to operate to a lower temp, increases the EF, and it has a "Northern Climate" hybrid mode.  

Just hoping they have fixed some of the controller/sensor issues.


----------



## Brian26

Clarkbug said:


> Bumping the thread to see if anyone has one of the new Geosprings?  There is a revision to the red top that now allows it to operate to a lower temp, increases the EF, and it has a "Northern Climate" hybrid mode.
> 
> Just hoping they have fixed some of the controller/sensor issues.



I have had mine for 2 years with only one minor issue. My elements disintegrated I believe because I only ran it in heat pump only mode and never used the elements. GE sent an upgraded set free.

I got it for $200 with CT utility and federal rebates and have the 10 year lowes warranty on it. It saved me a fortune over a regular electric. I had it hooked up to my effergy whole house energy and it was crazy how little power it used in heat pump only mode.

I checked out the new model and compared it mine. It looks like the new one has a 5 percent efficiency gain. 62 vs 67.

The Northern climate setting looks to meet some new requirement.

Our 2015 models are the first units to meet the high standards required to be *Northern Climate Specification Tier 3 certified.*

There is also a phone ap available now that you can connect to tank and control it.

One think to keep in mind with these is that the advertised 67 percent less power consompution is in hybrid mode where it uses both the elements and heat pump.Running it in heat pump only saves more. 

Mine pulls 500 watts in heat pump only mode vs 4500 for the elements. 8 times less power. In heat pump only mode I am only using 2-3 kwh a day.


----------



## mtrel

Brian26 said:


> I have had mine for 2 years with only one minor issue. My elements disintegrated I believe because I only ran it in heat pump only mode and never used the elements. .





Brian, how did you know your elements disintegrated? I've had mine running for a year and a half and have yet to turn on the elements.


----------



## maple1

I was thinking about that thread & report in July when I turn the breaker back on to my ordinary tank type heater. It had been turned off for over 2 years. Came back to life OK though. Lots of variablities in water quality out there, I suppose.


----------



## velvetfoot

And, in the polar opposite, I forgot to turn off the electric tank heater (before the add on heat pump) one winter, and it kept the tank hot for the whole winter!  They are indeed quiet.


----------



## moey

maple1 said:


> I was thinking about that thread & report in July when I turn the breaker back on to my ordinary tank type heater. It had been turned off for over 2 years. Came back to life OK though. Lots of variablities in water quality out there, I suppose.



Corrosive water will find a neutral point and stay that way. Its the constant changing with corrosive water that does in heating elements and pipes.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

They are more efficient because they now have twice the insulation.


----------



## Brian26

mtrel said:


> Brian, how did you know your elements disintegrated? I've had mine running for a year and a half and have yet to turn on the elements.



I got an error code on the display. F-3 I think. It seems to be programmed to revert back to heat pump only mode if there is an issue with the elements as I still had hot water and the heat pump ran. I called GE and they sent me 2 new better elements no questions asked. The new ones I received were bigger and had twice the element area. 





https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-geospring.128122/page-6#post-1879465


----------



## Brian26

So about a month ago the filter light on mine starting flashing every few days even when I would reset it.I found the service manual online and went into the service diagnostics mode and found a code for f-14 dirty filter. Called GE and they sent me out a new evaporator fan and a temperature sensor wiring harness. There are 3 sensors, 1 for the evaporator inlet/outlet and the compressor outlet. When I changed the fan I noticed the new one had way more air output then then my original one. So either they upgraded it to a higher speed or the old one was wearing out. 

After replacing the parts GE sent the filter light came back on again every few days. I took out the extended warranty from Lowes and I called them and they sent out GE to take a look at it. The tech came and hooked his laptop and software up to it, ran some tests, and found the control board bad. He ordered me one and said I could install it myself to avoid having to take off work again.  Seems to be running fine now. Mine is the second generation from the beginning of 2013. The tech said he sees very little issues with these and its usually the control board but they now have a revised version.


----------



## velvetfoot

Oy vay.  It's a water heater!


----------



## woodgeek

I had the control board go bad on my AO Smith HPWH (Voltrex 80 gal), they FedExed me a replacement and I swapped it in about 30 mins.
Its ~4 yrs old now, and has roughly paid for itself.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Im interested as im making hot water for 6 people and i also run a dehumidifier.  Plus my furnace room is 80 deg all winter which should help.


----------



## johnnh

velvetfoot said:


> Oy vay.  It's a water heater!




I'm with you.  I can't believe the aggravation for a water heater.  I have read this thread and it's mind boggling.  Especially for the amount of $ it claims to save.  Here's what I did:  One year ago I bought myself an 80 gallon electric water heater before the environmental police made them illegal.  It costs me $40.00 a month for 4 people - wife, a 16 year old and a 19 year old.  And that's with NH's expensive electricity.  Done deal.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

velvetfoot said:


> Oy vay.  It's a water heater!


Isnt this the "green room"  thats what its for discussion about new tech and green energy. I dont think this discussion is out of place at all. Why visit this thread at all, unless your interested in this type of tech?


----------



## woodgeek

johnnh said:


> I'm with you.  I can't believe the aggravation for a water heater.  I have read this thread and it's mind boggling.  Especially for the amount of $ it claims to save.  Here's what I did:  One year ago I bought myself an 80 gallon electric water heater before the environmental police made them illegal.  It costs me $40.00 a month for 4 people - wife, a 16 year old and a 19 year old.  And that's with NH's expensive electricity.  Done deal.



I agree, but not exactly.  I bought an 80 gallon HPWH which is aok by the EPA, which provides HW for my family of 4 for $15/month.  After rebates its $1000 more than a conventional unit, with a simple payback of 4-5 years (relative to the conventional elec tank), and a 10 year warranty.  

Done deal, easy money, and good for the environment.

Try to sell me a $10k active solar HW system with a zillion moving parts and holes in my roof....and I'm with @johnnh


----------



## Brian26

johnnh said:


> I'm with you.  I can't believe the aggravation for a water heater.  I have read this thread and it's mind boggling.  Especially for the amount of $ it claims to save.  Here's what I did:  One year ago I bought myself an 80 gallon electric water heater before the environmental police made them illegal.  It costs me $40.00 a month for 4 people - wife, a 16 year old and a 19 year old.  And that's with NH's expensive electricity.  Done deal.



Got my geospring for free essentially. $400 utility rebate plus $400 federal rebate and caught it on sale at Lowes. I don't think people realize how much money these things actually save. I had mine hooked up to my Effergy energy monitor for a month last year and posted about it here. Total cost was less than $15 and that's with the second highest electrical rates in the US here in CT.

Your using 4500 watt elements to heat your water. My geospring compressor pulls 9 times less the power at 500 watts and is 2.5 times more efficient at heating.


Ge standard claim is its uses $365 less power than a standard tank. Thats based on some standard of running it in hybrid mode using both the heat pump and elements. Running it in heat pump only mode saves more.  I am well over a grand saved in power costs since I installed mine.

Also, If anyone is looking into getting one and is close to CT. Our local utility is giving $400 off these instantly at Lowes. They don't check if you are a resident. You can buy one at lowes for $599 instantly at any CT location. Just put in CT as your location to get the price. There is also a $300 or $400 federal rebate available as well.

You would also get the 3rd generation that is more efficient and the heat pump works down to lower temperatures. I believe 35 degrees.


----------



## maple1

I think HP tech is great stuff - might even have one myself some day.

But our 4 year old 80 gallon conventional tank resistance heater only costs us $20-25/mo of $0.18/kwh electricity to run. That's $240-300/year. So if a HP cut it in half, that's maybe $150/yr. No incentives here like I read of in other places, & I think the GE is going for around $1500 or so. Pretty long payback. I think most over estimate how little it can cost to operate a conventional tank heater, if installed & insulated well.

(Throw in that we heat our DHW with wood for half the year, and it's pretty well out of our picture, now at least...)


----------



## fbelec

what is the warranty on the geospring tank itself


----------



## Brian26

fbelec said:


> what is the warranty on the geospring tank itself



1 year labor and 10 years on the whole unit. GE is very accommodating and will send out the warranty parts and let you install them DIY no questions asked. So far they have sent me elements, an evaporator fan and temperature sensor, and recently a control board that I installed myself. I looked up the price on the control board and it was $700. All of these repairs were quite simple and I maybe spent  maybe 2-3 hours on all these repairs combined. This upcoming June will be my 3 year mark of owning it. 

I have the Lowes extended warranty and used it once recently when I was having an issue with the control board. Through the lowes warranty they sent GE out who hooked up a computer up to it and said the control board was bad. The tech said its like a 15 min install and I could diy so GE sent the newer upgraded control board and I installed it myself. 

Since your in Mass you could drive down to any lowes in CT and pick one up and get the instant $400 off our utility is offering. It's currently $699 but Lowes has sales on these every few months. Last month it could be purchased for $599. If you haven't used it there is also a $400 federal refund available.   I had to mail something in to get my refund when I bought mine but they are giving it instantly on the purchase now.


----------



## billb3

That's a unique metric for reliability.
How long without hot water each time ?


----------



## begreen

Call me when they have 20 yr reliability.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I looked these up on the Lowes site and im reading one horror story after another ,seems some them are made in china. Now that GE appliance is chinese owned that could be a problem getting quality products. Home Depot sells the Rheem brand for more $ and the new model only has one review ,but its a good review if that means anything,but also about $400 more than the GE.


----------



## Brian26

Seasoned Oak said:


> I looked these up on the Lowes site and im reading one horror story after another ,seems some them are made in china. Now that GE appliance is chinese owned that could be a problem getting quality products. Home Depot sells the Rheem brand for more $ and the new model only has one review ,but its a good review if that means anything,but also about $400 more than the GE.



The first generation was made in China and had major issues. Almost all the bad reviews are for that 1st generation unit. The 2nd and now 3rd generation that are built in the US are extremely reliable. I talked to the GE tech himself and he said the 1st generation unit was a nightmare due to bad refrigerant sweating in China.

It has a 4.5 star rating on lowes.com. All of the bad reviews are from the 1st generation and people even comment that they are reviewing and older product and not the current one.

Here is an article about bringing the manufacturing of these back to the US from China and how it was more reliable and cheaper to do so.

https://operationsroom.wordpress.co...ging-appliance-manufacturing-back-from-china/

"
GE hadn’t made a water heater in the United States in decades. In all the recent years the company had been tucking water heaters into American garages and basements, it had lost track of how to actually make them.

The GeoSpring in particular, Nolan says, has “a lot of copper tubing in the top.” Assembly-line workers “have to route the tubes, and they have to braze them—weld them—to seal the joints. How that tubing is designed really affects how hard or easy it is to solder the joints. And how hard or easy it is to do the soldering affects the quality, of course. And the quality of those welds is literally the quality of the hot-water heater.” Although the GeoSpring had been conceived, designed, marketed, and managed from Louisville, it was made in China, and, Nolan says, “We really had zero communications into the assembly line there.” …

The GeoSpring suffered from an advanced-technology version of “IKEA Syndrome.” It was so hard to assemble that no one in the big room wanted to make it. Instead they redesigned it. The team eliminated 1 out of every 5 parts. It cut the cost of the materials by 25 percent. It eliminated the tangle of tubing that couldn’t be easily welded. By considering the workers who would have to put the water heater together—in fact, by having those workers right at the table, looking at the design as it was drawn—the team cut the work hours necessary to assemble the water heater from 10 hours in China to two hours in Louisville."

Summary of Customer Ratings & Reviews



4.5
515 reviews
462 out of 501(92%)reviewers would recommend this product to a friend.


----------



## Brian26

billb3 said:


> That's a unique metric for reliability.
> How long without hot water each time ?



Never didn't have hot water. It reverts back to a regular element electric hot water heater if there is a fault with the heat pump and the elements and thermostat can be purchased at your local hardware store.


----------



## Brian26

I connected my whole house energy monitor to just my geospring for the past week. Here is what an average day looks like. My wife showers in the morning and I shower at night and thats when we do our dishes/laundry.

Keep in mind here in CT we have some of the highest electric rates in the US at over .20 kwh total cost delivered.

I had natural gas at my last house and just to be connected the service charge was over $15 a month.
I am heating my hot water for less than the service charge alone if I had natural gas. Oil would cost many times that.

Less than $15 a month with some of the highest electrical rates in the US to heat hot water is impressive.


----------



## woodgeek

Seasoned Oak said:


> I looked these up on the Lowes site and im reading one horror story after another ,seems some them are made in china. Now that GE appliance is chinese owned that could be a problem getting quality products. Home Depot sells the Rheem brand for more $ and the new model only has one review ,but its a good review if that means anything,but also about $400 more than the GE.



In my research on the different models (3 years ago) the Rheem unit was clearly an inferior design, and yielded inferior savings performance.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

woodgeek said:


> In my research on the different models (3 years ago) the Rheem unit was clearly an inferior design, and yielded inferior savings performance.


Most likely Both models have been updated by now, a company can only eat so many returns, an still keep pumping out inferior products.Question is how good are the new models?


----------



## Brian26

I somehow cleared my effergy energy monitor data but I just recorded one of my lowest monthly cost to run my geospring.  The month of May cost me roughly $8.50 in electric costs for hot water. A big influence was the wholesale cost of power dropping from around .10 kwh to .6. With delivery fees and other charges it still comes in around .18 kwh.

The warmer temps and higher basement temp has helped as well. I hooked up a sensor from my weather station a foot away from the outlet to monitor the temperatures. My data shows it has almost no effect on my basement temp as it always stays the same. The geospring has been recovering in about an hour from an average shower using roughly .6 kwh.

With the rise of humidity I have been emptying a 5 gallon bucket every few days as well. Huge benefit to these is no need to run a dehumidifier anymore.


----------



## velvetfoot

Brian26 said:


> With the rise of humidity I have been emptying a 5 gallon bucket every few days as well. Huge benefit to these is no need to run a dehumidifier anymore.


Why not get a condensate pump?  They not that expensive, maybe a hundred bucks, which is, though a quarter of the cost of my 40 gallon electric tank.
I feel I am authorized to comment on this thread, thank you, since I have a Nyletherm, and yes, a condensate pump.   Both have been operating for two years, knock on wood.
If I spent a lot of time in the basement I'd think twice because of the noise and the fact that it's pretty cold down there, even in summer.
The relative humidity down there is about the same as ambient because of the lower temperature, so does it reduce mold factor?  I'm not sure.


----------



## fbelec

condensate pumps are even cheap than you said velvetfoot 2 to 3 years ago i replaced mine on the boiler about 25 bucks. brian it will suck the first time you forget or the water builds a little faster than you thought and it spills.


----------



## Brian26

fbelec said:


> condensate pumps are even cheap than you said velvetfoot 2 to 3 years ago i replaced mine on the boiler about 25 bucks. brian it will suck the first time you forget or the water builds a little faster than you thought and it spills.



I have one and its sitting right next to the tank. Just haven't hooked it up yet... The main drain line for the house is about 3 feet away as well.

The tank is right next to the washer/dryer and my wife and I are constantly down there.  We use the water to water the house plants. 

On a related note. Here in CT the local utilities are offering $400 off these in rebates and there is still a federal tax credit on them for $300. 

I got mine 3 years ago for essentially free when the rebates where much better. 

I know many are skeptical on the reliability of them but I am over 3 years on mine with minimal problems and GE has sent the parts no questions asked to repair it under the 10 year warranty. 

I have said it before but the advertised savings is running it in hybrid mode where it uses the heat pump and elements. I run mine in heat pump only mode where the savings for heating water are massive.

The new models are rated at 3.25 energy factor. So for every 1 KWH used they produce the equivalent of 3.25 in energy towards hot water. Besides solar no other form of heating hot water can touch that efficiency.


----------



## cableman

So right now i have a tankless coil on my boiler, yup i hate it. Bought a 40gal indirect but havnt had it hooked up yet.
My boiler is in the basement, hampton insert on 1st floor.
Would this hphw thing be a better option for me here on longisland? Im worried in winter while inserts kicking the boiler would hardly be on to help warm my basement for the hphw to rob heat off of.


----------



## maple1

cableman said:


> So right now i have a tankless coil on my boiler, yup i hate it. Bought a 40gal indirect but havnt had it hooked up yet.
> My boiler is in the basement, hampton insert on 1st floor.
> Would this hphw thing be a better option for me here on longisland? Im worried in winter while inserts kicking the boiler would hardly be on to help warm my basement.



Is your boiler a cold start boiler? Can it go cold in between chargings of an indirect without leaking? Not all boilers are good matches for indirects.

Heating DHW with a boiler that isn't cold start or that has a tankless coil is about the most inefficient way to heat DHW. I had one for 17 years (coil). Cost me almost a gallon of oil a day for DHW in the summer. I changed to an ordinary electric tank heater, that costs us about $25/month of $0.18/kwh electricity (family of 5).

A HPWH would definitely be a good option for you as far as making DHW more efficiently, but not sure of your winter basement situation. If your boiler could stand being shut down & let go cold for extended periods, I might consider an electric tank heater (they're the easiest & cheapest to install)  for DHW for the non-heating months, then turn the boiler back on in the heating months, if you need the boiler heat for heating down there. I would imagine the boiler is adding to the heat in the house in the summer also?


----------



## Brian26

cableman said:


> So right now i have a tankless coil on my boiler, yup i hate it. Bought a 40gal indirect but havnt had it hooked up yet.
> My boiler is in the basement, hampton insert on 1st floor.
> Would this hphw thing be a better option for me here on longisland? Im worried in winter while inserts kicking the boiler would hardly be on to help warm my basement for the hphw to rob heat off of.



If your boiler is oil fired then yes. I switched my mom over to a Geospring 2 years ago from oil and the savings were massive on not buying oil for hot water. Especially in the warm months when the she doesnt need heat.

The new units will run down to 35 degrees before the heat pump kicks off. I am on forced hot air and my insert is upstairs. My basement temp stays around 50-55 all winter with my furnace barely running. I never use the elements.

Since your on long island. You could just drive over here to CT and get the instant utility rebate off the geospring at lowes. They used to make you mail it in but are now giving it instantly off the purchase price as the energy efficency program is flooded with money. They are running billboards all over the highways here advertising the savings on them.

I actually just checked by saying my local store was Commack LI. The price that came up was $1,399 on LI. Type in Norwalk, CT and it comes up at HALF the price at $699!

Check some of my other posts on how cheap mine is to run. I heated my hot water for $8.50 in May and that's with CT's crazy high electric rates. I am sure rates are high on LI as well.


----------



## Ashful

Brian26 said:


> Check some of my other posts on how cheap mine is to run. I heated my hot water for $8.50 in May and that's with CT's crazy high electric rates. I am sure rates are high on LI as well.


My oil-fired BoilerMate costs less than $360/year to operate, and would average out to less failed parts in half a century than your GeoSpring has had in 3 years!  Why would anyone ever switch, and deal with the headache of swapping all these parts, when the potential savings is less than $200 per year?  If you figure 20 years on one water heater, you're surely going to come out negative, based on repair frequency.  Even worse on a 30 year scale, considering anticipated lifetime/replacement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cableman

Its an 18yo oil fired peerless that hasnt gone cold cause it has to keep the coil hot for hot water. I just moved in sep 2015.

Basement also does need a dehumidifier in summer, winter with boiler on its comfortable. I did seal up the sill plates and just need to replace 3 small windows.

Electric rates are high here, dont remember what id have to look.
My 11 and 9 yo take like 20min showers at night, wife prolly the same me 3min lol
What size hphw would do?


----------



## velvetfoot

Those indirect tanks  aren't cheap.  I think the heat pump does help with humidity.


----------



## Brian26

Ashful said:


> My oil-fired BoilerMate costs less than $360/year to operate, and would average out to less failed parts in half a century than your GeoSpring has had in 3 years!  Why would anyone ever switch, and deal with the headache of swapping all these parts, when the potential savings is less than $200 per year?  If you figure 20 years on one water heater, you're surely going to come out negative, based on repair frequency.  Even worse on a 30 year scale, considering anticipated lifetime/replacement.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My Geospring was free and just cost me $8.50/month in electricity which can come from renewable sources such as solar. Your oil fired boiler probably burned that much money in oil in a few days. What about 3 years ago when heating oil was almost $4 gallon?  In the course of the 3 years I owned the Geospring the repairs took less than a few hours of my time.  Probably the same amount of time for a few yearly oil burner tune ups. Which also cost around $150 + a year here.

Heating water with oil is one of them most inefficient and expensive ways. I am heating my hot water with 70% less energy than you use to heat yours. 

I also have the full 10 year extended coverage by lowes. In 10 years I will just get another one and will already be ahead thousands of dollars in savings. 

You also need to keep in mind these are about 100% reliable in providing hot water. If there is an issue with the heat pump it switches to a basic element electric hot water heater. If for some reason an element or thermostat went bad a run to lowes or HD will have you back running quickly and cheap.


----------



## cableman

The tank i bought was $730 and $1800 to replumb my whole boiler and add circulators instead of the zone valves i have, taco zone panel and some other crap. 
I could just leave the boiler and install the hphw unit myself with help of a buddy!

I would shut boiler off in summer and see if it leaks i guess.
Just dont wanna make the mistake finding out the hphw heater doesnt work well or needs repair all the time.


----------



## Brian26

velvetfoot said:


> Those indirect tanks  aren't cheap.  I think the heat pump does help with humidity.



It does. I drain a 5 gallon buckets worth every few days. Ironically the dehumidifier I used to run in the basement used more power than the Geospring itself and now I am making my hot water in the process. The savings there alone is huge if you run a dehumidifier in your basement.


----------



## Brian26

velvetfoot said:


> Those indirect tanks  aren't cheap.  I think the heat pump does help with humidity.



It does. I drain a 5 gallon buckets worth every few days. Ironically the dehumidifier I used to run in the basement used more power than the Geospring itself and now I am making my hot water in the process. The savings there alone is huge if you run a dehumidifier in your basement.


----------



## cableman

If i bought the geosprings local do i still get the rebates? Ct is just giving the rebate right away?


----------



## Brian26

cableman said:


> If i bought the geosprings local do i still get the rebates? Ct is just giving the rebate right away?



Yes. Just walk in and buy it for $699. The rebate is factored in the price. If you haven't used it there is also a $300 or $400 federal tax credit as well.


----------



## cableman

50 gal enough for family of 4?


----------



## maple1

The bigger the better, IMO. Gives you more of a cushion of hot water for higher use periods. Should also maximize your gain in the dehumidifying aspect, maybe.

I think I would have one already if we had the rebates here that I read of on here in other areas.

BTW - an $1800 replumb? That sounds a bit out there. What are the reasons for needing to do that? And what all does it encompass? I also heat DHW with the boiler (wood) in the winter, that setup is plumbed in the same way as my heating zones. Just added a zone valve. It all uses the same circulator (Grundfoss Alpha). IMO any hot water system with multiple heating loads should be using zone valves and one Alpha circulator (variable speed constant pressure).

Likely the main factor in all this would be if you can safely let your oil boiler go cold. Not sure how much a new cold start boiler goes for these days - but I'm almost thinking that for the cost you quoted for the new tank & replumbing, you could get both a new HPWH & cold start boiler. Or not much more. Don't know much about your existing system though & the need for the replumb.


----------



## cableman

maple1 said:


> The bigger the better, IMO. Gives you more of a cushion of hot water for higher use periods. Should also maximize your gain in the dehumidifying aspect, maybe.
> 
> I think I would have one already if we had the rebates here that I read of on here in other areas.
> 
> BTW - an $1800 replumb? That sounds a bit out there. What are the reasons for needing to do that? And what all does it encompass? I also heat DHW with the boiler (wood) in the winter, that setup is plumbed in the same way as my heating zones. Just added a zone valve. It all uses the same circulator (Grundfoss Alpha). IMO any hot water system with multiple heating loads should be using zone valves and one Alpha circulator (variable speed constant pressure).
> 
> Likely the main factor in all this would be if you can safely let your oil boiler go cold. Not sure how much a new cold start boiler goes for these days - but I'm almost thinking that for the cost you quoted for the new tank & replumbing, you could get both a new HPWH & cold start boiler. Or not much more. Don't know much about your existing system though & the need for the replumb.



3 quotes 1600-2100. Thats removing the 2 zone valves and circ i have now. Install taco panel 3 circs instead of zone valves, cut out the coil and plumb all 3/4 copper instead of the 1/2" there and what ever other crap is needed.
I could prolly just leave the boiler alone aside from cutting coil out and just plumb it over to the hphw, i have a 50amp sub panel right next to it with 2 breakers feeding basement outlets and lights.
I ask 2 of the plumbers about the hphw and they never did any. I think i wanna just return that superstor indirect i bought and go the hphw way!


----------



## maple1

OK - still wondering though on the reasoning or necessity of converting from zoning by zone valve to zoning by pumps? Does the existing setup work OK? Or are there other things being accomplished or overcome also? Another consideration (not sure how important, kind of depends on priorities & preferences), is that one Alpha circulator would use quite a lot less electricity than three Taco circulators. The actual amount of consumption dollar wise may turn out to be not a whole lot, but it would be reduced.

EDIT: The dehumidification factor would also likely play a large part for me if I was running a dehumidifier anyway. They can eat some juice.


----------



## cableman

maple1 said:


> OK - still wondering though on the reasoning or necessity of converting from zoning by zone valve to zoning by pumps? Does the existing setup work OK? Or are there other things being accomplished or overcome also? Another consideration (not sure how important, kind of depends on priorities & preferences), is that one Alpha circulator would use quite a lot less electricity than three Taco circulators. The actual amount of consumption dollar wise may turn out to be not a whole lot, but it would be reduced.
> 
> EDIT: The dehumidification factor would also likely play a large part for me if I was running a dehumidifier anyway. They can eat some juice.



I guess no real reason other then all the plumbers said run all zone circulators instead if its gonna get pulled all apart anyway.
If i no longer use the dhwc in the boiler, i can just cut it out of the loop and have the boiler only turn on when a room thermastat calls for heat correct?


----------



## cableman

Whats with the the energy star 50 gal one vs the reg 50 gal? How many showers in a row can you guys get out of the 50 gal?
Also in heat pump only mode, it heats water to 125 max?

http://m.lowes.com/search?searchTerm=ge+geosprings+heat+pump+hot+water


----------



## woodgeek

Recovery times for HPWHs are slower than regular electrics, and the number of showers depends on your showerheads.   Measure the flowrate with a pitcher and compute the number of shower minutes.  Then figure out how long you and your family actually shower.

I got an 80 gal HPWH and low-flow (but nice) shower heads for my fam of 4.  My wife and I shower in the AM, and my teen girls in the PM< so less of a concern, and  50 would've prob been ok, but YMMV. When we have houseguests that will need to shower all at once...I just put it in conventional mode.  I set mine to 120° which is very nice....lower than that and legionalla becomes possible.

I like that, unlike my tankless coil, I can use both showers in my house and wash the dishes at the same time, rather than the PITA suckage of trying to worry about freezing people if I run the sink HW.  No regrets, and in my case I was saving >$1000/year with HPWH versus inefficient tankless coil with $4 oil, prob $500/yr with $2 oil.


----------



## maple1

Ashful said:


> My oil-fired BoilerMate costs less than $360/year to operate, and would average out to less failed parts in half a century than your GeoSpring has had in 3 years!  Why would anyone ever switch, and deal with the headache of swapping all these parts, when the potential savings is less than $200 per year?  If you figure 20 years on one water heater, you're surely going to come out negative, based on repair frequency.  Even worse on a 30 year scale, considering anticipated lifetime/replacement.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Do you have a cold start boiler?


----------



## cableman

Sounds good, ill go 80gal i think being kids wanna take a bath at times. You think the 80 is any less efficient then the 50 having to heat more water?


----------



## cableman

maple1 said:


> Do you have a cold start boiler?



No i dont have it set that way but i read i can just pull the blue wire on my low temp aquastat and it wont come on to maintain the coil


----------



## maple1

cableman said:


> I guess no real reason other then all the plumbers said run all zone circulators instead if its gonna get pulled all apart anyway.
> If i no longer use the dhwc in the boiler, i can just cut it out of the loop and have the boiler only turn on when a room thermastat calls for heat correct?
> View attachment 181668



I would ask the plumbers what you stand to gain by going all-circ. It's seeming to me to be a waste of money in this case - unless I am still missing something. I'm thinking you should be able to get an indirect plumbed in and the only added or new component you would need is a new zone valve for it.

Yes, you could just cut the coil out of the loop. It can stay in place, in the boiler. Having the boiler start only on call for heat is the most efficient way, but it depends on how your boiler will stand going cold. (That's what 'cold start' means). But another but - true cold start boilers have much smaller water volumes than ordinary boilers, so they can heat up quicker on start up & provide hot water much sooner. So even if your boiler could handle going cold frequently, you will see some efficiency loss in heating a bigger volume of water up & having it cool off every time it starts. Plus have to wait a bit longer before it puts out useable hot water. But (again) the efficiency shortcomings in that would likely be less than keeping the boiler hot all the time, especially if using the boiler only for DHW.


----------



## maple1

cableman said:


> No i dont have it set that way but i read i can just pull the blue wire on my low temp aquastat and it wont come on to maintain the coil



OK - but I was wondering on Ashfuls setup.


----------



## cableman

Its a peerless wbv-03, can this boiler be a cold start? Its 18 years old but each plumber said it looks great


----------



## woodgeek

cableman said:


> Sounds good, ill go 80gal i think being kids wanna take a bath at times. You think the 80 is any less efficient then the 50 having to heat more water?



Not such that you would care.....they are well insulated (by modern regs) and the input heat is cheap (from the HP).  If you can find/afford an 80 gal, I think its a good choice for a family.


----------



## cableman

Ill have to call a ct lowes, if they have one ill be taking a boat ride.


----------



## Brian26

cableman said:


> Ill have to call a ct lowes, if they have one ill be taking a boat ride.



If you have the money I would get the 80 gallon but the 50 gallon may be fine. Its just my wife and I and we have never run out of hot water. These have 4 different heating modes as well. There is a high demand setting that will kick on the elements to boost the recovery time. I put mine in high demand this past christmas when I had a ton of family staying here just to be safe but other than that its always in heat pump mode.

Lowes is showing the 80 gallon one at $1,899 compared to $699 for the 50 gallon at the Norwalk, CT store. Not sure if the instant discount is factored in that 80 gallon price but I know it is for the 50 gallon one. You can maybe call them and see. 

From the energize CT website.

We help make it affordable to upgrade to an ENERGY STAR-certified heat pump water heater with up to a *$400 instant discount* provided by the Connecticut Energy Efficiency Fund. Whether you’re replacing an old water heater or installing one in a new home, you'll save money up front.


----------



## cableman

Milford which is closer for me is showing one instock for 1299. Wonder why norwalk shows it for more. I checked here also and its 1899 and the only credit is 300 fed.
Im excited to get one now! Should be a pretty simple hook up vs paying a plumber to do the indirect.

If anyone knows, (i know nuttn about boilers!) if i cut my coil out, disconnect the blue wire in my aquastat which controls the low temp dial, will the burner turn on only when a thermastat calls for it?
If ive read it right, my boiler cycles all the time to keep the tankless coil hot and thats run off the low side of the aquastat.


----------



## velvetfoot

Brian26 said:


> It does. I drain a 5 gallon buckets worth every few days. Ironically the dehumidifier I used to run in the basement used more power than the Geospring itself and now I am making my hot water in the process. The savings there alone is huge if you run a dehumidifier in your basement.


I wonder though, is it counterbalanced by the lower temperatures in the basement, which affects the relative humidity?


----------



## woodgeek

More knowledgeable people around here re your boiler question....but basically you want to run your boiler as a cold-start, so it will go cold when there is no call for space heat.  You are correct that as long as you have a coil, you can't run cold-start.   Also, if you can't run the boiler cold-start, the indirect won't actually save you any oil....the parasitic heat losses through the boiler will still be there.  (But it would get you 'better' HW supply).

But whether you can run it cold start or not is hard to say...read the manual on the unit.  You can certainly rewire the stat to make it run that way, but will it rust out?  will is soot up?  will it start to leak at the cast iron seals?  I dunno...because I do not know your boiler model.

EDIT: Looking over internet resources on your unit, no mention of cold-start setup in the install manual of functionality in the product literature.  So you are back to asking your oil tech IMO.

So, this is a BIG question IMO for the indirect option.  In the HPWH option, it is much less so.  Assuming you can shut the boiler off outside the heating season, there is no wasted oil, and only 1 cold start per year in the fall.  The parasitic loss BTUs running it warm start in the winter are less objectionable....some end up as useful space heat (or most depending on your basement insulation).

Lastly, I have no regrets going HPWH and having no boiler running in the summer.  I think it cut my annual AC bill in half (I have a well shaded lot).  I still cringe when I hear the neighbors central AC kicking on when it is 60°F outside....that used to be me....you could open windows and have a breeze, but if it was >60°F outside, the house would still heat up anyway.


----------



## cableman

Milford had 2 left so i ordered one up. Nice savings vs buying it here.


----------



## cableman

After taking ferry i still saved 569 bucks on the 80gal! I ordered yesterday and today online its back up to 1899!
Thanks for the tip guys! Ill post a pic once i install it.


----------



## cableman

So it looks like i need a thermal expansion tank, anyone know what size or any will do?


----------



## woodgeek

you have a check valve on your water supply?


----------



## cableman

woodgeek said:


> you have a check valve on your water supply?



Dont believe i do. I see a leaky backflo preventer on the boiler input but everything else all the way back to the main just looks like shut offs.


----------



## maple1

I don't have an expansion tank on my 80 gallon (resistance) DHW setup - my cushion tank acts as an expansion tank. The need for expansion would depend on your cushion tank setup & if there are any check valves between the DHW heater, and your cushion tank. Or maybe beyond, if you're on municipal water.


----------



## woodgeek

I don't have a exp tank on mine...thought you only needed one if you had a backflow preventer on your main.  Why do you think you need one?

There is a relief valve on the unit (of course) to prevent damage in rare circumstances (like heating when the main is shutoff).

This issue may be decided by local codes (?) no issue here in PA.


----------



## cableman

Instructions say install expansion tank! Idk i guess i could call them.


----------



## woodgeek

I have an AO Smith 80, and IIRC the manual says exp tank only is there is a backflo preventer.


----------



## tom in maine

The Nyle Geyser is $850 last time I checked. It ties in with your existing HWH.
Then when the tank springs a leak, the heat pump is just reconnected to the new tank.

www.heatingstuffllc.com has new old stock Etech units, which are an earlier version HP that Nyle copied for $365 delivered in CONUS. Minimal electronics, no control board! Just a couple relays and some analog controls.


----------



## cableman

After some research it looks like an expension tank is needed if a backflo or check valve is installed like was mentioned. Im gonna install one anyway i think.


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## woodgeek

Why?  What will it do....if you have city water, they regulate the service pressure and the volume is not fixed.  When your tank heats, the expansion will cause a small volume of HW to back out the supply line, at constant pressure.  Since the pressure is fixed, the exp tank will not do anything, or prevent that small backup.....which is present in ALL tank-type HWHs.

The geospring has to have a pressure relief valve (for safety).  If you somehow had a (hidden) check valve somewhere, the dribbling from the relief valve during every heating cycle would be your tipoff....and you could then add an exp tank in that case.


----------



## velvetfoot

Agree.


----------



## maple1

If you have your own well, I could see an advantage to adding some expansion - it could increase your water reserve in the event of a power outage. But I would add that expansion, in the form of either a larger or a second cushion tank. The cushion tank doubles as an expansion tank as long as there are no check valves in between - and a larger cushion tank capacity might also get you through a short power outage without running out of water or needing to power a water pump with a generator. It would also reduce the cycling of your water pump - which should help with pump life, and electricity consumption.


----------



## velvetfoot

The expansion tanks for water heaters are usually really small. He's on Long Island, so I imagine doesn't have a well.  And, they never lose electricity there.


----------



## Ashful

maple1 said:


> Do you have a cold start boiler?


Traditional, with 6 zones plumbed to ca.1770, 1890, and 1990 wings of the house.  It's carrying about 75% of my heating load DHW (I also have multiple ASHPs and electric water heater for the farther reaches of this big house).  My two Ashford 30's supplant about two thirds the normal load off this boiler, when they're running, but the boiler runs every day, wood stoves or not.  Heating about 8100 sq.ft., half of which is still original in-insulated stone with 1770's vintage Windows and doors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cableman

See how much i dont know bout plumbing! My buddys a plumber so hea gonna hook it up for me. I am city water with no backflo valves, i guess ill leave it out then


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## cableman

Installed! Its quiet. Still running on hybrid mode for past 5 hrs, i guess it takes a while to heat 80 gal to 120*. Ill kick it to heat pump only when it stops. Plumber bud said install expansion tank.


----------



## woodgeek

I defer to the pro, of course....could be a local code issue.


----------



## cableman

Stopped running bout 1 hour ago, its aproved by an 11yo after her shower so far!
Expansion tank was 34 bucks at my buds cost, prolly not needed but his people said install it.
Sure sucked the humidy out of the basment!


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## maple1

You sure moved quick with your decision.

Good luck, and keep us posted!


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## cableman

maple1 said:


> You sure moved quick with your decision.
> 
> Good luck, and keep us posted!



Glad i did too seeing the price jump back up to $1899.
I watched my oil tank drop from full to 3/4 in 2 months just for hot water! I just had to try something other then oil.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

80 gallon seems like overkill ,unless its to make up for slow recovery time. My 30 gallon conventional does a good job with 6 users. So im thinking i could benefit from this  80 gallon behemoth. Edit: i mean 50 gallon behemoth ,if 30 gals is working fine im sure 50 even with a longer recovery time will be plenty.


----------



## woodgeek

@cableman, did you go for a condensate pump too...running where?

Mine is in my attached garage, and the condensate is gravity drained to a sump pit.


----------



## cableman

woodgeek said:


> @cableman, did you go for a condensate pump too...running where?
> 
> Mine is in my attached garage, and the condensate is gravity drained to a sump pit.



I did order a pump for a dehumidifier i never bought, it went on sale on amazon for $19.99! Who would of known it would be hooked to a hot water tank! It pumps right outside.
I was tempted to get the 50gal but with kids/wife baths i figured heat pump mode would recover slower.
So its a nice steady hot water unlike my tankless coil, but well see how it performs in the winter.
The box went to use!


----------



## cableman

So far hot water is very even and much better then that tankless coil.
It seems to kick on once a day at night after kids showers, they must turn hot all the way up being further from the shower head!
It stays on for quite some time, 4 or more hours im not sure cause im sleeping by then.
Basement drops 2* from 70 to 68 but feels much colder, being summer its not a problem, but not sure how that will work in winter with basement temps prolly 10*-20* less.
Hopfully boiler helps out a little then.

I amp clamped each hot lead at roughly 1.8amps per side, hopefully my 80-100 dollar montly electric bill doesnt go up too much!

Anyone hook the wifi up?


----------



## maple1

1.8 amps, over 4 hours, is about 1.7kwh.

Don't know what you pay for electricity - but if it's say $0.20/kwh, that's 34 cents a day. $10/month.


----------



## Brian26

cableman said:


> So far hot water is very even and much better then that tankless coil.
> It seems to kick on once a day at night after kids showers, they must turn hot all the way up being further from the shower head!
> It stays on for quite some time, 4 or more hours im not sure cause im sleeping by then.
> Basement drops 2* from 70 to 68 but feels much colder, being summer its not a problem, but not sure how that will work in winter with basement temps prolly 10*-20* less.
> Hopfully boiler helps out a little then.
> 
> I amp clamped each hot lead at roughly 1.8amps per side, hopefully my 80-100 dollar montly electric bill doesnt go up too much!
> 
> Anyone hook the wifi up?



Glad to hear you got it and its working good. You can thank us CT residents for paying into the energize ct fund on our electric bills for getting that great price. lol 

You will have zero issues in the winter. You have the latest model that is rated down to like 35 degrees or something. I run mine in heat pump only mode year round. The efficiency drops a a bit as the temps go down and the heat pump will run a little longer. 

I had an energy monitor hooked up to mine and these use barely any energy compared to other electric stuff in the house.  Mine pulls 500 watts when running it heat pump mode. My wife showers in the morning and I shower after work. It recovers in about an hour so mine runs about 2-3 hours a day using a measly 1-2 kwhs a day. I have done extensive monitoring with mine with my effergy energy monitor. It cost less than $10 a month in electricity to run. (Thats with like the 2nd or 3rd highest electric rates in the country here in CT). 

I also extensively monitored my basement temps and it has zero effect on it. It may drop about a degree or 2 but then levels right back within an hour or so. 

I saw the wifi thing but its not worth it as it just does the same things you can do with the buttons on your tank.

There is a cool dianostic mode you can go into with these. It will show you all the sensors and stuff. You can see the evaporator temp, compressor outlet temp etc.


----------



## Ashful

maple1 said:


> 1.8 amps, over 4 hours, is about 1.7kwh.
> 
> Don't know what you pay for electricity - but if it's say $0.20/kwh, that's 34 cents a day. $10/month.


That's pretty good, and almost worth dealing with the slow recovery time and lower water temperature.  I'm burning a gallon a day, keeping my water hot with oil, although I do have the luxury of almost instant recovery (we never run out of hot water) and much hotter hot water.


----------



## woodgeek

cableman said:


> So far hot water is very even and much better then that tankless coil.
> It seems to kick on once a day at night after kids showers, they must turn hot all the way up being further from the shower head!
> It stays on for quite some time, 4 or more hours im not sure cause im sleeping by then.
> Basement drops 2* from 70 to 68 but feels much colder, being summer its not a problem, but not sure how that will work in winter with basement temps prolly 10*-20* less.
> Hopfully boiler helps out a little then.



It will just take longer to recover in the winter....both because of lower air temps and because of lower input water temps.  The first one increases energy use, the second one not so much.....pumping heat into cold water is very efficient, the most energy goes into the last 20°F of heating, IIRC.

If the water is not hot enough, bump it a few degrees, you prob won't care about the extra $0.50/month.  Or make sure the HW pipe runs are well insulated.


----------



## cableman

Its actually 1.8 or so on both hots right at the breaker. It kicked on early today cause the wife is doing dishes and laundry, ill have to see how long. It was only 1 amp on each hot this time. Ill have to ck my pseg bill and see what i pay.
Wonder if 50 gal would have come on more but for shorter durations. 80 seems to stay on pretty long like 4 or more hours.

So far its nice! Spent this morning neating up the boiler wiring, looking great!


----------



## cableman

Heres my newest pseg bill, i dont know what im beong charged here! 
When it kicked on early today it was only short lived maybe 2hrs not like the evenings ive experienced.


----------



## woodgeek

The power draw from the compressor depends on the temp of the water its heating....as the water gets hotter (in contact with the refrigerant coil, at the bottom of the tank), the compressor works harder and the draw goes up.  You are not going to be able to estimate the usage easily without some sort of energy monitor.

The only difference between the 50 and the 80 will be higher parasitic losses on the larger tank....probably less than $1/mo.


----------



## woodgeek

cableman said:


> Heres my newest pseg bill, i dont know what im beong charged here!
> When it kicked on early today it was only short lived maybe 2hrs not like the evenings ive experienced.
> View attachment 181906



Looks like you get a discount on the first 300 kWh, which is 9 (energy) + 6 (delivery) = 15 cents/kWh.  After that they bump you up and extra cent and half to 16.5 for the remainder.

And then they add fixed costs and percentages like sales tax.

Your whole bill divided by your usage works out to 20.6 cents/kWh, your marginal rate is likely a bit lower.


----------



## cableman

woodgeek said:


> Looks like you get a discount on the first 300 kWh, which is 9 (energy) + 6 (delivery) = 15 cents/kWh.  After that they bump you up and extra cent and half to 16.5 for the remainder.
> 
> And then they add fixed costs and percentages like sales tax.
> 
> Your whole bill divided by your usage works out to 20.6 cents/kWh, your marginal rate is likely a bit lower.



Thats high right? Lol


----------



## woodgeek

cableman said:


> Thats high right? Lol



If you want it to be high, yeah it high.  But I think its all relative.  I was paying 18 cents/kWh in 1992 in Chicago.  Adjusting for inflation, I was paying 2x more than you are now.  And my AC then probably used 2X the electricity per BTU cooling than yours.

Electricity prices vary across the country, and everyone likes to complain....but they haven't been increasing much relative to inflation for the last 30 years.

For comparison I get 100% PA Wind power, for about 14.5 cents/kWh all-in.


----------



## BrotherBart

High compared to my all-in cost of 12.5 cents a kWh plus or minus. But the real ripoff on your is that property tax recovery ding.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Electricity is a good bargain these days ,especially with inflation figured in. Im right on 9.9cKWH all in. everything included. 1469KW this month and bill is $148.00 .Actually $45 cheaper cuz of a generation co switch last month saving me 3c KWH.


----------



## Brian26

cableman said:


> Thats high right? Lol





Ashful said:


> That's pretty good, and almost worth dealing with the slow recovery time and lower water temperature.  I'm burning a gallon a day, keeping my water hot with oil, although I do have the luxury of almost instant recovery (we never run out of hot water) and much hotter hot water.



The savings over oil is huge. Lets just say $2 gallon heating oil. You use a gallon a day is  so about $60 a month or $720 a year. I am sure some use more than a gallon a day so the figure could probably be doubled. I know oil is cheap now but heating oil was almost $4 a gallon 3 years ago. Even with $2 a gallon oil the geospring blows away oil in energy cost. I had natural gas at my old place and it was $15 a month just to be connected. The geospring is cheaper than the monthly fee just to be hooked up to gas. 

I will use your 1 gallon a day oil usage as an example. I think most would use more than a gallon of heating oil a day though. 

Geospring $10 a month or $120 a year. 
Heating oil at @ $2 a gallon is $60 a month or $720 a year. 

Using that example the geospring more than paid for itself in the first year and your saving $600 a year after that. If oil goes up the savings is even bigger. If oils goes to $3 a gallon oil your saving $960 a year.


----------



## Ashful

Brian26 said:


> The savings over oil is huge. Lets just say $2 gallon heating oil. You use a gallon a day is  so about $60 a month or $720 a year. I am sure some use more than a gallon a day so the figure could probably be doubled. I know oil is cheap now but heating oil was almost $4 a gallon 3 years ago. Even with $2 a gallon oil the geospring blows away oil in energy cost. I had natural gas at my old place and it was $15 a month just to be connected. The geospring is cheaper than the monthly fee just to be hooked up to gas.
> 
> I will use your 1 gallon a day oil usage as an example. I think most would use more than a gallon of heating oil a day though.
> 
> Geospring $10 a month or $120 a year.
> Heating oil at @ $2 a gallon is $60 a month or $720 a year.
> 
> Using that example the geospring more than paid for itself in the first year and your saving $600 a year after that. If oil goes up the savings is even bigger. If oils goes to $3 a gallon oil your saving $960 a year.


I agree, the Geospring would save on energy costs, but you're forgetting some other big numbers:

1.  My basement is a heated, finished space.  If I'm pulling heat out of the basement via the GeoSpring, I must make that up via my oil-fired boiler, and my heating costs will rise.  I'm not sure how much this would close that gap on energy savings.
2.  These Geosprings seem to eat parts at a rate maybe 100x higher than my oil-fired system.  Even under warranty, the frustration and down-time is worth $.  Out of warranty, it's real money.  A typical oil-fired system can last 50 years, and it's unlikely I'll ever have to replace any parts on the system the previous owners of my house installed, short of maybe a circulator pump motor every 20 years.

The costs over the 20 - 30 years I may live in this house aren't clear, especially if I go thru a new HPWH every 10th year, and need repair them in-between.


----------



## cableman

For me having the tankless coil garbage, the geospring turned out to be an easier and cheaper way to go. If i did install the indirect it would have cost me $2700 total! Im into the geospring for $1600.


----------



## woodgeek

Ashful said:


> I agree, the Geospring would save on energy costs, but you're forgetting some other big numbers:
> 
> 1.  My basement is a heated, finished space.  If I'm pulling heat out of the basement via the GeoSpring, I must make that up via my oil-fired boiler, and my heating costs will rise.  I'm not sure how much this would close that gap on energy savings.
> 2.  These Geosprings seem to eat parts at a rate maybe 100x higher than my oil-fired system.  Even under warranty, the frustration and down-time is worth $.  Out of warranty, it's real money.  A typical oil-fired system can last 50 years, and it's unlikely I'll ever have to replace any parts on the system the previous owners of my house installed, short of maybe a circulator pump motor every 20 years.
> 
> The costs over the 20 - 30 years I may live in this house aren't clear, especially if I go thru a new HPWH every 10th year, and need repair them in-between.



I think cableman has it right on the financials, except that he assumes that the parasitic heat from the boiler's 1 gal/day standby has no value in the winter....if the basement were insulated, it would all provide space heat BTUs.  If uninsulated, it might reduce space heating BTUs by some factor, like 50% per loss BTU.

And those financials are hefty.  Even at $2 oil a difference of even $40/mo times 20 years is $10,000 w/o interest.

As for your points:
1. The heat stealing in the winter is only about 1 BTU per 2 delivered.  If your basement were perfectly insulated, it would reduce your savings in the winter (thus the $40/mo above).  If your basement is old, uninsulated and heated by space and parasitic heat passing through on its way to the great heat sink on the ground, then stealing some of those BTUs cooling the basement reduces your losses to the earth.  I'd assume 50% worst case in an unisulated basement in our climate...and then it is a minor issue (1 BTU oil per 4 delivered).
2.  In 4 years I have spent $0 on repairs to my (AOSmith) HPWH, which has a 10 yr warranty and a non-sacrificial anode.  I had a board go bad (after a huge power surge that blew out my whole-house surge suppressor, charring the inside door of my breaker box).  AOSmith had be run a couple diagnostics on the phone (1 hour) and fedexed me a replacement board, which I installed in about 1 hour the next day.  IN contrast, my simple one-zone boiler needed annual service that was hitting me for $200/yr, and had a series of malfunctions (that left me w/o hot water) that required a half dozen $$ service calls for the 6 years we were together...typically running $100-$300 a whack with parts and labor.

If you have a jacuzzi tub and multi-shower head system.....get *two* 80 gallon units, and plumb them so if one fails, you can bypass it temporarily.


----------



## maple1

Brian26 said:


> The savings over oil is huge. Lets just say $2 gallon heating oil. You use a gallon a day is  so about $60 a month or $720 a year. I am sure some use more than a gallon a day so the figure could probably be doubled. I know oil is cheap now but heating oil was almost $4 a gallon 3 years ago. Even with $2 a gallon oil the geospring blows away oil in energy cost. I had natural gas at my old place and it was $15 a month just to be connected. The geospring is cheaper than the monthly fee just to be hooked up to gas.
> 
> I will use your 1 gallon a day oil usage as an example. I think most would use more than a gallon of heating oil a day though.
> 
> Geospring $10 a month or $120 a year.
> Heating oil at @ $2 a gallon is $60 a month or $720 a year.
> 
> Using that example the geospring more than paid for itself in the first year and your saving $600 a year after that. If oil goes up the savings is even bigger. If oils goes to $3 a gallon oil your saving $960 a year.



I don't think many would use more than 1 gallon per day.

Our old tankless coil boiler was in the area of 3/4 gallon per day, for us, during the summer. I did set the boiler temp back in the spring though, to about the 'adequate' point. My memory is kinda foggy on it now, but I think that was in the 140° range.

But the savings are still there & real. Even if you don't go for a HPWH & just use a conventional electric. We replaced 3/4 gallon of oil per day, with $25/month of $0.18/kwh electricity in a conventional resistance heater. Not sure what oil is here now, since I haven't bought any in 4+ years. But it's more than $2/gallon. Pretty sure it's still close to $1/litre CDN, after taxes.


----------



## Brian26

Ashful said:


> I agree, the Geospring would save on energy costs, but you're forgetting some other big numbers:
> 
> 1.  My basement is a heated, finished space.  If I'm pulling heat out of the basement via the GeoSpring, I must make that up via my oil-fired boiler, and my heating costs will rise.  I'm not sure how much this would close that gap on energy savings.
> 2.  These Geosprings seem to eat parts at a rate maybe 100x higher than my oil-fired system.  Even under warranty, the frustration and down-time is worth $.  Out of warranty, it's real money.  A typical oil-fired system can last 50 years, and it's unlikely I'll ever have to replace any parts on the system the previous owners of my house installed, short of maybe a circulator pump motor every 20 years.
> 
> The costs over the 20 - 30 years I may live in this house aren't clear, especially if I go thru a new HPWH every 10th year, and need repair them in-between.



1. An extensive study was done by the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory on space conditioning. They found very little effect on space temperatures and energy use. GE also has a duct kit available for these. Some people use the duct kit to draw the warm exhaust from their fridge to boost efficiency. You could also exhaust the cold air outside or into your living space in the summer. So this a non issue. I would purchase the duct kit but I used to run a dehumidifier in my basement and the geospring is now my basement dehumidifier. A huge bonus and energy savings for me.

2. There is practically zero downtime with these. They will function as a simple electric hot water heater if there is an issue with the heatpump.  Elements and thermostats are available cheap at Lowes, Home Depot, or any hardware store but those rarely every go bad.

It costs $150 around here to have an oil burner tuned up every year. My geospring cost $120 a year to run.

I have had mine for over 3 years with 3 minor issues and I always had hot water. My heatpump has run for thousand of hours with no issues.

I have the 2nd generation geospring.The first one was a disaster and made in china. The 2nd one was made in the usa and was much better. The 3rd and most recent one is extremely reliable according to the GE tech that came out and looked at mine.There are 1054 reviews on lowes with almost 5 stars. 

If you buy it from Lowes you can get a 10 year extended warranty for $60 that covers everything an they use GE factory service.

They are still $599 at lowes in CT with the instant $400 utility rebate and if you haven't used the $300 federal rebate that is still available. For those in New England and the tri-state area its worth a drive.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Its time to pull the trigger on this. I can get $700 in rebates and i need my old 30 gallon electric water heater for a rental so at $999 for the GEO it about zeros out.
Got 6 people here so thinking the savings could be significant. Add in the dehumidifier running in the same room for more savings. Some of the reviewers are claiming $50 a month in saving on their electric bill for a family of 4 so i may reach that. My water use is around 7000 gallons a month with a good chunk of that being hot water. My lowes only offers a 5 year extended but the Mfg offers a 10 yr parts anyway and i can do a parts swapout myself.  Also the free AC in summer would be nice too ,in winter my wood stove is only about 10 feet away.


----------



## cableman

Seasoned oak, you gonna go for tge 50 or 80 gal?
My basement so far has only dropped 2* but it rises right back up.
Kids are the energy hogs! My wife and i can both shower and it doesnt come on, just one kid can shower and it comes on. Its gotta be that their smaller, further from the water so they turn the hot up more and they just spin in circles for the first 8min!


----------



## maple1

cableman said:


> Seasoned oak, you gonna go for tge 50 or 80 gal?
> My basement so far has only dropped 2* but it rises right back up.
> Kids are the energy hogs! My wife and i can both shower and it doesnt come on, just one kid can shower and it comes on. Its gotta be that their smaller, further from the water so they turn the hot up more and they just spin in circles for the first 8min!



Kids are weird. They go from can't get them in the shower, to can't get them out of it.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> Seasoned oak, you gonna go for tge 50 or 80 gal?
> Kids are the energy hogs! My wife and i can both shower and it doesnt come on, just one kid can shower and it comes on. Its gotta be that their smaller, further from the water so they turn the hot up more and they just spin in circles for the first 8min!


Im getting the 50 gallon simply because i use a 30 now with no problems. Plus the cost of the 50 zeros out for me at $999 ,the 80 is $1600.  Teenagers are even worse than small kids in the shower. Thats why i dont oversize my WH , nothing like cold water to get them moving out! Me and the wife we never run out.


----------



## STIHLY DAN

Just finished the 4th year having my geospring. I have had nothing go wrong with mine. We have 2 adults and 3 teenagers on the 50 gal, I run mine at 140* in the summer with a mixing valve set at 125. I do this for more dehumidification, plus allows the tank to be bigger. I almost always run on hp only, only time I needed hybrid was spring and fall when there was 5 showers in a row. If I was to do it again, I would get the 80 gal set up the same way. not that its needed, but for the extra if needed.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Iv noticed the 80 is less efficient for some reason,probably more standby loss,and cost a lot more than the 50. Not at all cost effective unless you really need that much hot water all at once. Almost 100 gallons first hour. Probably the same size compressor, just a bigger tank.


----------



## cableman

80gal sure is big, prolly should have done the 50! 
Stihly dan that 140* is in hp only mode? I thought is maxed out at 125* in hp only mode.


----------



## Ashful

Seasoned Oak said:


> Iv noticed the 80 is less efficient for some reason,probably more standby loss,and cost a lot more than the 50. Not at all cost effective unless you really need that much hot water all at once. Almost 100 gallons first hour. Probably the same size compressor, just a bigger tank.


First hour?  All reports on this forum indicate these things take 4 - 6 hours to recover.

I have two water heaters, oil-fired in basement, and electric on third floor.  It's nice having infinite hot water, and not worrying about either failing, since you'll always have the other.


----------



## cableman

Ashful said:


> First hour?  All reports on this forum indicate these things take 4 - 6 hours to recover.
> 
> I have two water heaters, oil-fired in basement, and electric on third floor.  It's nice having infinite hot water, and not worrying about either failing, since you'll always have the other.



96 gallons 1st hour before you would run out and have to wait for it to recover. Yes its still gonna run for how ever long to get back up to temp


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I dont see a problem here with the recovery mode. You can always select standard element  heat mode when periods of high use are expected,such as extra people staying over, lots of showers back to back. The big savings will come from the countless small draws,  sure the standard elements recover faster and also use 9 times more power to do it.
Ill be picking up a 50 gal Geospring today from lowes.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Im curious how much the Geospring will cool the room its in. heard estimates on this forum from 2 to 10 degrees. ill find out today when i install it. Probably more on 1st day than any other. Pretty simple female pex adapter on top the already installed 3/4 pipe nipples. Good move by GE, Its a lot less likely to crossthread a female adapter onto a nipple than trying to get a male adapter down into a builtin female fitting like most WH have. Even if you do youve only ruined the adapter not the whole water heater.  Should take 10 minutes once it in place.


----------



## cableman

My buddy used copper with no unions! I hope i dont have a problem with corrosion cause of differant metals. Maybe ge uses nipples that wont cause it? My bud also was pretty good keeping the last solder joint up high and cooling with wet rag and turning cold water right on. Pex prolly would have been easier.

So far 2* max drop in my basement, i suspect it will drop more in winter.


----------



## Ashful

No expert here, but I've always made my water heater connections with a bronze couplings between the WH and copper plumbing.

Unions?  Just a source for leaks.  I can cut off the old copper and sweat on a new coupling, faster than most can get a union to seal.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Rebate form is asking for the contractors name address and phone number, but it does not say thats a requirement for WH  thats self installed. Wondering if i should leave that blank. Ill put the name of my business even though its a real estate business, not a plumbing company.


----------



## cableman

Whats the rebate your getting? That from your power company?

Ge shows all copper on their site too, it is only a picture though. Hopfully ill be ok.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> Whats the rebate your getting? That from your power company?
> 
> Ge shows all copper on their site too, it is only a picture though. Hopfully ill be ok.
> 
> View attachment 181989


$400 from my power co. $300 from federal tax credit ,and i happen to need my old WH in a rental so thats saving me $350. So it about Zeros out with  purchase price of $999 from Lowes  $1060 With tax.
So whatever i save on power is money in the bank from day 1.  A thousand dollar water heater That pays for itself up front then again every 2 to 3 years.


----------



## Ashful

This thread spurred me to go back and look at some of our previous conversations about HPWH's, and how I might be able to take advantage of one.

My current system:

1.  Basement boiler room:  Amtrol Boilermate tank system installed on oil-fired boiler.  Also running TWO dehumidifiers in this large (2000+ sq.ft.) basement.  Boiler room is not insulated, and is VERY warm in winter, keeping our kitchen floor above nice a toasty.

2.  Third floor attic:  Traditional electric 40 gallon.  Used only for third-floor bathroom, which is seldom used right now, but will probably see regular usage once our kids get a little older.  I'm running a third dehumidifier in this attic space, to eliminate condensation from exterior of our air conditioning air handler contained in this space, as this was covered in mold when we moved in.

Primary issue with Boilermate basement install is that all add-on units require the installation of a 1/2" dip tube in the 3/4" inlet of the tank.  This is an enormous constraint on flow rate of a tank that is supplying 13 sinks + 3 showers + 2 washers + 2 dishwashers, any combination of which may be running simultaneously.  Also, I suspect the dehumidifcation will not work so well, as this basement is broken into five or six rooms, and the HPWH will not have great airflow to the largest (and leakiest walk-out) portion of the basement.

Primary issue with third-floor installation is low usage, and the fact that this is a very cold un-conditioned space all winter.

What can a HPWH do for me?  Only options I see are both for the basement install:

1.  Install an add-on system to Boilermate, ignore dip-tube suggestions, and set up as a molded tank EHWH.
2.  Install a HPWH with another 50 or 80 gallon tank (complete waste of space), and use it to supply the Boilermate.  This would allow me to supply the boiler with warm (eg.130F) water, keep the HPWH in it's most efficient operating mode, and do final heating and holding with oil (lower cost).

Thoughts?


----------



## Seasoned Oak

This will help with humidity but you probably would need to keep at least 1 dehumidifier going. probably get only a gallon a day from this unit.
In 2 hours of running my humidity is dropping steadily from 78 to 74  Temp near the unit dropped from 74 to 70  Exhaust is about 58- 60 degrees. So far im loving the cool air coming from it ,can also get adapters to duct the intake as well as the exaust air. When my wood stove is going  this general area is 90 degrees so wont be hard to get hot water from that.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

It seems this unit could recover even faster than a regular 50 Gal unit in hybrid mode if im not mistaken it uses both the 4500 watt heating element and the heat pump simultaneously. It also has a high demand mode and an electric only mode, I doing my initial warmup in heatpump only so as to get maximum area air cooling and humidification and lowest KW use. 3 birds with one stone.


----------



## woodgeek

Ashful said:


> Thoughts?



The financials are entirely predicated on *shutting down* the oil boiler and indirect in the summer.  If parasitic losses overheat the space in the winter, then the heat stealing by the HPWH would steal from energy currently wasted (out the sides of the basement and into the earth).   Shutting down the boiler in the summer would also save a bundle on AC costs.   What the dehumidification savings would be is hard to estimate....depends on your current moisture load and your HW usage.

You **could** keep the boiler-mate in place, and either use it in the winter, or fire it up when you have a bunch of house guests, or keep it as a backup, whatever.  But, the idea of feeding the boilermate with the HPWH would not lead to significant savings IMO.

If you want, you should try to audit how much oil you use in the summer, when you are away (so no HW used) or when you are home (difference is your HW BTU usage).  I put a 120VAC 'hour meter' across the blower leads on my boiler, to log run hours per day, and multiplied by nozzle GPH.  Read it once a day for a month.  My standby was 1.2 gallons per day.  When we were home our HW usage put it up to 1.4 or 1.5 gallons...i.e. 80% of our oil was wasted, just making heat to keep the AC busy.

looked like this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0027NLO8K/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## cableman

I ran it in hybrid after the initial fill, meter hardly moved compaired to the electric dryer! Its now in hp only mode.
Let us know how that 50 gal does seasoned oak, im thinking it would work for most.


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## Fanatical1

Just spent 45 minutes reading the entire thread here! Lots of really good info. 


I thought I would share my experience with the Geospring. 

I have the 2nd generation, red top, purchased at Lowes with all the discounts cost me $470.00 with tax. I installed it myself two years ago in my laundry room which is off the main living area. I leave the door open on the laundry room so it has plenty of air movement. 

After two years of use, we have had zero issues and cut our energy use in half for heating water. Almost always have it in HP mode with an exception once in a while.

I would buy one again in a heartbeat.


----------



## maple1

woodgeek said:


> If you want, you should try to audit how much oil you use in the summer, when you are away (so no HW used) or when you are home (difference is your HW BTU usage).  I put a 120VAC 'hour meter' across the blower leads on my boiler, to log run hours per day, and multiplied by nozzle GPH.  Read it once a day for a month.  My standby was 1.2 gallons per day.  When we were home our HW usage put it up to 1.4 or 1.5 gallons...i.e. 80% of our oil was wasted, just making heat to keep the AC busy.



Holy wow - that's some serious wasted oil.

I've been saying all along that we used 3/4 gallon of oil per day with our old tankless coil unit. But on second thought - I've been talking Imperial gallonage. So I guess more like in the area of 1US gallon per day. That was with the boiler turned down to 'just adequate'. And seemed to be whether we were using DHW or not.


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## Ashful

I've been tracking my usage for five years, and we use 1.0 gallons (US) oil per day, for heating water.  In that five years, this house has only been left empty once for a week, so no way to check standby vs usage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seasoned Oak

Ashful said:


> I've been tracking my usage for five years, and we use 1.0 gallons (US) oil per day, for heating water.  In that five years, this house has only been left empty once for a week, so no way to check standby vs usage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A gallon a day is at least $60 a month and rising. HPWH is rated at about $13 a month depending on KWH rate. Mine is less cuz i pay 10c KWH not 12 which is the basis.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> I ran it in hybrid after the initial fill, meter hardly moved compaired to the electric dryer! Its now in hp only mode.
> Let us know how that 50 gal does seasoned oak, im thinking it would work for most.


I changed it to Heat pump only right from the start. Initial heat up took about 4 hours. Dropped humidity briefly about 4 points and room temp about 2 degrees.  After that it just runs occasionally. I tried 110 for the first day which is hot enough for a shower but probably too cold for the washer and dishwasher,so i bumped it up to 115 today. Its hard to believe you can get a 50 gallons of hot water out of 2 degrees of room temperature.


----------



## woodgeek

Ashful said:


> I've been tracking my usage for five years, and we use 1.0 gallons (US) oil per day, for heating water.  In that five years, this house has only been left empty once for a week, so no way to check standby vs usage.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I assume you mean you use 1.0 gallons of oil per day, on average, when you are using zero space heat.  ?

The standby on most boilers is close to 1.0 gal/day.  With an indirect even more so.

If you were actually using 110,000 BTUs/day of heat for DHW, you would be a very large user.  IT is possible you are a normal DHW user and most of that 1.0 g/day is parasitic loss....and it is losing this (hypothetical) loss that drives the financials for a HPWH.

Of course, if the HW was diluted at the tap to 110°F, and your CW input was 50°F, 1 g/day oil is enough energy to heat 1800 lbs or 220 gallons of HW/day.  This seems unlikely to me for 2 people with a small child.


----------



## cableman

I think they say we should run it over 120 or Legionnaire can set in?
The 50 gal prolly cycles more then 80 helping it suck humidity out. My basement was 69% this morning, i heard it kick on as i was leaving for work. Hasnt been on too long lately. Once or twice a day, never heard it kick on a 3rd. I can see if its been on cause the condensate hose will still be full for some time until it drops back into pump.


----------



## Ashful

Seasoned Oak said:


> A gallon a day is at least $60 a month and rising. HPWH is rated at about $13 a month depending on KWH rate. Mine is less cuz i pay 10c KWH not 12 which is the basis.


We pay 16.75c per kWh.  God bless PECO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ashful

woodgeek said:


> I assume you mean you use 1.0 gallons of oil per day, on average, when you are using zero space heat.  ?
> 
> The standby on most boilers is close to 1.0 gal/day.  With an indirect even more so.
> 
> If you were actually using 110,000 BTUs/day of heat for DHW, you would be a very large user.


That is correct.  Total oil usage during off-season is 1 gal/day.  I can't say what part of that is standby loss vs usage, but standby loss in HPWH isn't exactly zero, either.  No interest in having our hot water be less hot, as we have some pretty long runs, which cannot be insulated.  So, our standby losses will always be above average, by maybe 50%.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodgeek

Ashful said:


> That is correct.  Total oil usage during off-season is 1 gal/day.  I can't say what part of that is standby loss vs usage, but standby loss in HPWH isn't exactly zero, either.  No interest in having our hot water be less hot, as we have some pretty long runs, which cannot be insulated.  So, our standby losses will always be above average, by maybe 50%.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You're missing a point here.  Standby losses in oil boilers are MUCH higher than in HPWHs.  The latter are insulated all around with 1.5 or 2" of foam, the former with a half inch of FG in parts, and nothing anywhere else.  Making just HW, oil systems often run 70-80% standby losses BEFORE the pipe runs.  By comparison, the standby losses in HPWH are more like 10-15% tops.


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## Seasoned Oak

ID say standy loss is minimal in the HPWH iv been checking  the temps of the external heat losers like the fittings and pressure relief valve. the hot water outlet is room temp when theres no draw,only place i could find a thermal leak is the Pressure relief valve which was about 85 degrees all the time.


----------



## Ashful

woodgeek said:


> You're missing a point here.  Standby losses in oil boilers are MUCH higher than in HPWHs.  The latter are insulated all around with 1.5 or 2" of foam, the former with a half inch of FG in parts, and nothing anywhere else.  Making just HW, oil systems often run 70-80% standby losses BEFORE the pipe runs.  By comparison, the standby losses in HPWH are more like 10-15% tops.


Yep, got it.  Wasn't missing that.  Was just pointing out that the typical costs of running a HPWH are out the window when you run them 40F hotter than the temperature used in the calculations.  Add to that our higher electric rates (17c vs. 12c), and the cost savings end up being a bit less.


----------



## cableman

Seasoned Oak said:


> ID say standy loss is minimal in the HPWH iv been checking  the temps of the external heat losers like the fittings and pressure relief valve. the hot water outlet is room temp when theres no draw,only place i could find a thermal leak is the Pressure relief valve whinch was about 85 degrees all the time.



I pipe wrapped the pressure relief valve about 1/2 way down, gotta cut it so its fully covered. Im pretty much pipe wrapped through out the whole basement, just a couple of base board heating sections to finish.
Basement this morn is 71% humidity but it doesnt feel bad, not like outside.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Condensate is about a gallon a day, not enough to allow me to eliminate the dehumidifier but some savings along with some cool air to help the AC out a bit. Have the temp adjusted up to 120 now,lower temps dont work with the slow recovery time in heat pump mode.


----------



## cableman

Seasoned Oak said:


> Condensate is about a gallon a day, not enough to allow me to eliminate the dehumidifier but some savings along with some cool air to help the AC out a bit. Have the temp adjusted up to 120 now,lower temps dont work with the slow recovery time in heat pump mode.



Any problems with 6 people and the 50 gal yet?


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I dont expect problems as i am replacing a 30 gallon electric which worked fine with 6 people. But the slow recovery of the HPWH is a factor,so i started out at 110 Degree setting but i ran out of hot water after a few back to back showers so went to 115 and while better still ran out with multiple users drawing , now im at 120  so ill be adding a lot of cold to a shower and so it will extend my capacity to probably 60 to 70 gallons. 120 is the recommended setting anyway. Ill probably never(or almost never ) use the hybrid or all electric function of this heater. It is nice to have in case we get company but that is only rarely ,perhaps once a year when there is 10 people here.


----------



## cableman

I dont really have people stay maybe 1 extra sometimes. I went 80gal figuring kids and wife can take a bath and if anyone else had to shower hot water would still be there. Im still being cheap and yelling at kids to shower in 5min!
I havnt even turned a/c on yet! Bedroom was 85!


----------



## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> I dont really have people stay maybe 1 extra sometimes. I went 80gal figuring kids and wife can take a bath and if anyone else had to shower hot water would still be there. Im still being cheap and yelling at kids to shower in 5min!
> I havnt even turned a/c on yet! Bedroom was 85!


The 80 cost a lot more, i basically got the 50 for free ,if id chosen the 80 id be out another $600 .


----------



## cableman

Seasoned Oak said:


> The 80 cost a lot more, i basically got the 50 for free ,if id chosen the 80 id be out another $600 .



I hear ya! I was spending no matter how i looked at it cause i didnt have any tank. I figure ill make it up in the long run by prolly using less then a tank of oil a year.


----------



## begreen

Have there been any reports or issues with the condensate pump drain freezing up in winter if it's piped outdoors?


----------



## cableman

begreen said:


> Have there been any reports or issues with the condensate pump drain freezing up in winter if it's piped outdoors?



This i will have to keep an eye on, i used pex for the most part and where it exits i came out on a downward angle.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

I just noticed that lowes has 2 different models on their website for the 50 Gallon. One is only a 2.4 energy factor while the one i got is a 3.25. Both are listed for $999.  THe less efficient one uses about 650 watts while the better one uses about 550 watts in heat pump mode. Im assuming that they upgraded the heater but still have to previous model listed for some reason.


----------



## cableman

Whats the 80gal use? I thought i read 600w max. I did see those 2 online but only one style 80 gallon


----------



## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> Whats the 80gal use? I thought i read 600w max. I did see those 2 online but only one style 80 gallon


I just ask that question on the site. If its exactly the same as the 50 then they are using the same heat pump on a bigger tank.  Doesnt really justify a $600 price jump for the 80.


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## cableman

They should have made a 60 gallon!


----------



## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> They should have made a 60 gallon!


The 50 is like a turbocharged WH anyway, You can select heavy demand and get super fast recovery using both heating methods,the 4500 watt resistance elements plus the heat pump at the same time. Should recover faster than a regular WH putting it in line with a larger WH. If iv been happy with a 30 all these years im sure this 50 is even overkill.


----------



## cableman

Seasoned Oak said:


> The 50 is like a turbocharged WH anyway, You can select heavy demand and get super fast recovery using both heating methods,the 4500 watt resistance elements plus the heat pump at the same time. Should recover faster than a regular WH putting it in line with a larger WH. If iv been happy with a 30 all these years im sure this 50 is even overkill.



I hope to never have to run mine in anything but hp mode, im too cheap and wouldnt wanna see my electric jump! I prolly should have done the 50, 80 is alot of hot water. Im happy so far but still need to make it through a winter with it.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

Cable man ,what is your temp setting?
I Just did a load of laundry and took a shower and it wasnt even enough drawdown to for it to kick on. I was surprised. Seems like the 120 setting is plenty. GE says it still save 50% at 50 degrees room temp.
Its 67% at 68 room temp. Probably better when i start my wood stove and that general area  goes to 90 deg.


----------



## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> I havnt even turned a/c on yet! Bedroom was 85!


Ive got mine going 24/7  cant stand a hot house. Whole house is 70 to 75  with just  2, 5000 BTU bedroom ACs going.


----------



## Ashful

Seasoned Oak said:


> Probably better when i start my wood stove and that general area  goes to 90 deg.





Seasoned Oak said:


> cant stand a hot house.


----------



## Brian26

Seasoned Oak said:


> I just noticed that lowes has 2 different models on their website for the 50 Gallon. One is only a 2.4 energy factor while the one i got is a 3.25. Both are listed for $999.  THe less efficient one uses about 650 watts while the better one uses about 550 watts in heat pump mode. Im assuming that they upgraded the heater but still have to previous mo
> del listed for some reason.



GEH50DEEDSR is the 2nd generation model. GEH50DFEJSR is the latest generation. They probably still have some of the 2nd gen's in inventory.

I looked into upgrading to the newer generation as my 2nd gen is over 3 years old and I basically got it for free through rebates. I was going to sell mine cheap to a friend or family member then go buy the newest one for $599 at lowes.

I researched the differences and the best I could find was.

Better energy factor of 3.25 compared to 2.5.
Heat pump temperature cutoff is lower on the newer one. I believe its 35 degrees and the 2nd gen was 45.
The controller has the GE connect software where you can control it with ge's phone app.
I am guessing better insulation.
Might be other stuff such as a more efficient compressor but thats all I found so far.

One important thing to remember with the listed efficiency ratings are they are based on Dept of Energy savings. I believe it is ran in hybrid mode using the elements and heat pump with a water temp of 135. I found running mine in heat pump only mode at 120 degrees blows away the listed energy ratings They list it as using 1351 KWH a year. Based using my effergy energy monitor on mine I probably use half that in a year.


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## Brian26

For those in Massachusetts my sister in the Boston area is going to buy one after I told her about mine. 

There is a $750 rebate available through mass save. A Massachusetts zip code on lowes shows these on sale for $999. Total cost with the rebate would be $350. A federal tax rebate of $300 is also available so you could get one for $50. 

http://www.masssave.com/en/residential/heating-and-cooling/electric/hpwh


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## cableman

My 80 gallon energy sticker says $169 1407kwh
Are those energy #s above for the 3rd gen 50 gallon?



Seasoned Oak said:


> Cable man ,what is your temp setting?



Im at 120* basement is holding at 70* even though temps outside dropped last night.
I guess ill be holding off on turning the central a/c on!


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## Seasoned Oak

Ashful said:


>


The furnace /woodstove room goes to 90 degrees which is in the basement in order to keep the house above at 75


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## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> My 80 gallon energy sticker says $169 1407kwh
> Are those energy #s above for the 3rd gen 50 gallon?



Thats just slightly above my 50 which is $162 at 1351Hwha at 12c KWH, and it is 3rd generation.Not bad for the 80.Mine would be around $135 at 10c KWH.  Only issue so far is at 120Deg i can get 3 to 4 normal showers back to back except when the wife does on of her hour long showers with the hair conditioner,then its only 2 . I could probably bump it up to 135 for those times. The Phone app and Module were you can adjust the temp from your smart phone would come in handy. Its $49 for the module.


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## cableman

Seasoned Oak said:


> Thats just slightly above my 50 which is $162 at 1351Hwha at 12c KWH, and it is 3rd generation.Not bad for the 80.Mine would be around $135 at 10c KWH.  Only issue so far is at 120Deg i can get 3 to 4 normal showers back to back except when the wife does on of her hour long showers with the hair conditioner,then its only 2 . I could probably bump it up to 135 for those times. The Phone app and Module were you can adjust the temp from your smart phone would come in handy. Its $49 for the module.



1hr long shower! Crazy
Im higher then the 12c kwh, ill have to see how much my bill goes up each month


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## STIHLY DAN

cableman said:


> 80gal sure is big, prolly should have done the 50!
> Stihly dan that 140* is in hp only mode? I thought is maxed out at 125* in hp only mode.



This is in hp mode, temp setting has nothing to do with mode. It will not run as efficient with the lower delta T, but dehumidifies a crap load more.


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## STIHLY DAN

Seasoned Oak said:


> It seems this unit could recover even faster than a regular 50 Gal unit in hybrid mode if im not mistaken it uses both the 4500 watt heating element and the heat pump simultaneously. It also has a high demand mode and an electric only mode, I doing my initial warmup in heatpump only so as to get maximum area air cooling and humidification and lowest KW use. 3 birds with one stone.



No they do not run simultaneously. At least 1st and 2nd gens didn't.  Boost is hybrid but turns electric elements on sooner than hybrid. Conventional is the fastest recovery.


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## STIHLY DAN

Seasoned Oak said:


> ID say standy loss is minimal in the HPWH iv been checking  the temps of the external heat losers like the fittings and pressure relief valve. the hot water outlet is room temp when theres no draw,only place i could find a thermal leak is the Pressure relief valve which was about 85 degrees all the time.



I believe 2nd gen was 1/4 degree per hour heat loss, 3rd gen 1/2 that with its extra inch of insulation that all heaters have now.


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## STIHLY DAN

begreen said:


> Have there been any reports or issues with the condensate pump drain freezing up in winter if it's piped outdoors?



It does not produce condensate in the winter. The air is to dry, thats why people run humidifiers in winter.


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## STIHLY DAN

cableman said:


> Whats the 80gal use? I thought i read 600w max. I did see those 2 online but only one style 80 gallon



3rd gen is 550 watts, 80 gal only has 1 listing because they did not start making it until the 3rd gen. previously could only get a 50.


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## Seasoned Oak

STIHLY DAN said:


> 3rd gen is 550 watts, 80 gal only has 1 listing because they did not start making it until the 3rd gen. previously could only get a 50.


Same as the 50 so must be just a bigger tank ,same heat pump.


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## cableman

Seasoned Oak said:


> Same as the 50 so must be just a bigger tank ,same heat pump.



Prolly more coiling, still alot more expensive then the 50


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## STIHLY DAN

yup, you both are correct.


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## Nelson

cableman said:


> Stopped running bout 1 hour ago, its aproved by an 11yo after her shower so far!
> Expansion tank was 34 bucks at my buds cost, prolly not needed but his people said install it.
> Sure sucked the humidy out of the basment!



Congrats on the install! I'm looking at one myself to replace my current gas fired (propane) hot water heater. I'm curious if you are measuring your humidity in your basement - if so, do you know how much it dropped after installing the Geospring?

Thanks!


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## cableman

Nelson said:


> Congrats on the install! I'm looking at one myself to replace my current gas fired (propane) hot water heater. I'm curious if you are measuring your humidity in your basement - if so, do you know how much it dropped after installing the Geospring?
> 
> Thanks!



I stuck a sensor from my acu-rite weather station down in my basement. Not really sure how accurate it is, but humidity stays around 69-70% and drops very little once its running maybe to 67-68%. Feels good and doesnt smell down there, if it did im sure the wife would let me know!


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## Seasoned Oak

While the geospring ,may alleviate mild humidity it dont replace a HD dehumidifier. ID say mine runs 20 % less but its still needed or the RH goes into the 80s. Takes a week to fill a 5 gallon bucket,which my dehumidifier could easily do in a day.


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## Nelson

thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I'm not anticipating being able to get rid of my dehumidifier but even a 20% reduction would be nice given how much juice mine sucks.


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## Seasoned Oak

Im monitoring the Kwh used by my dehumidifier  with a killawatt meter,so far its about $3 a month set at 75%. Ill set it at 70% to see what the dffference is. Im sure the Goespring is helping with these numbers ,but i didnt check it before i got the Geo.


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## cableman

Will drylocking basement walls and floor help with basement humidity? I love to sprayfoam the whole thing but way too expensive.


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## woodgeek

cableman said:


> Will drylocking basement walls and floor help with basement humidity? I love to sprayfoam the whole thing but way too expensive.



Except in cases where actual liquid water is intruding, most basement humidity is coming from humid outdoor air entering the space, often through gaps at the sill plate around the basement.  Alternatively, if the upstairs is not AC'ed, it may be comfortable in terms of relative humidity (RH) up there, but the same air might have too high RH in the basement due to its naturally lower temps.

If the upstairs is being AC'ed, then the problem is usually that the basement is getting humid air leaked from the outside AND cooling from the upstairs at the same time (by conduction through the floor).

The solution is usually to airseal the sills, which also makes the space a lot warmer in winter and saves on energy bills year round.  Airselaing the sills by sprayfoam is usually a good approach, and is MUCH cheaper than trying to do the walls.

One test is to block the windows on a sunny day and see if you can see any daylight around the sills or other utility penetrations, basement doors, etc.


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## cableman

Ok good, i did the poor mans sill sealing with great stuff cans, worked well! Next is windows.


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## semipro

I agree with what woodgeek said but would add that concrete is water-permeable and that water will tend to move from the wetter side to the dryer side. How much water is coming through the walls will depend on exterior drainage and waterproofing, etc.  
You can quickly get an idea of how much water may be entering the basement through the walls by taping some clear poly up on the wall so that water coming through is trapped by the plastic/tape.  How much condensation is forming on the wall side of the poly will give you an idea of water entry amount.


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## Seasoned Oak

I was actually surprised at the Dehumidifier power consumption. i thought it was a lot higher(may have been before geospring) I can live with $3 a month At 75%. IF 70 % is not much more ill go with that.


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## Seasoned Oak

Trying to maintain 70% humidity is 4x higher or  $12 a month so im setting it at 75% at  $3 a month along with help from the Geospring i should be OK with the boiler rust.


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## semipro

Seasoned Oak said:


> I was actually surprised at the Dehumidifier power consumption. i thought it was a lot higher(may have been before geospring) I can live with $3 a month At 75%. IF 70 % is not much more ill go with that.


You've seen this discussion I assume. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/basement-humidity-level-percentage.51160/


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## velvetfoot

I'm a little confused on this topic.   The basement is cooled as well well as dehumidified by the hp water heater.  If cooler, the relative humidity goes up.  If you're running the dehumidifier that'll raise the temp, helping to reduce rel. humidity.


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## woodgeek

velvetfoot said:


> I'm a little confused on this topic.   The basement is cooled as well well as dehumidified by the hp water heater.  If cooler, the relative humidity goes up.  If you're running the dehumidifier that'll raise the temp, helping to reduce rel. humidity.




If the condenser coil of the HPWH is below the dewpoint of the basement air, it will dehumidify some, and the basement temps will not be cooled very significantly (unless the space is quite small).  In point of fact though the dehumidification effect varies, as more efficient units use a bigger fan, and a larger coil (per BTU cooling), so the air is cooled to a smaller degree, limiting dehumidification.


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## Seasoned Oak

Mine consistently take about a gallon a day out of the air ,that will greatly decrease during colder months as the RH goes down a s low as 25 in winter around here. But in winter lack of moisture is the problem ,not too much.


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## Seasoned Oak

Rebate center just called me to verify some info ,said my $400 rebate check would be in the mail shortly . Already put the old WH in a rental so ill be up to $800 as soon as the check gets here,and over the entire cost of the heater as soon as i do my 2016 taxes


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## Seasoned Oak

Looks like my light bill will be roughly the same as last month($150) before i got the Geospring but the big difference is this month im running 3 AC bedroom window units on most days. So the savings are going into cooling the space.


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## cableman

Nice, i put central ac on so i wont get a good month #. I shut it back off tues but looks like its getting hot again this weekend. I like windows open!


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## STIHLY DAN

woodgeek said:


> If the condenser coil of the HPWH is below the dewpoint of the basement air, it will dehumidify some, and the basement temps will not be cooled very significantly (unless the space is quite small).  In point of fact though the dehumidification effect varies, as more efficient units use a bigger fan, and a larger coil (per BTU cooling), so the air is cooled to a smaller degree, limiting dehumidification.



I have to disagree with this remark. The condenser is wrapped around the tank under insulation. The evaporator is exposed running at a temp below the dew point dehumidifying the air. Also a larger coil dehumidifies more due to more surface area, and cooling the air to a smaller degree absorbs more water. So it is aiding in dehumidification.


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## Seasoned Oak

Well just completed my first month with the geospring. Results are pretty good My electric bill went from $148.00 to $129.00 .But there are extenuating circumstances. One iv had the AC going constantly for at least 2 weeks now dealing with this heat wave. And iv had the Geo installed for about 20 days of this bill. So $20 savings for 20 days would be $30 for 30 days and add at least $10 to $15 for the air going all the time. So i think  im in the $40 savings range this month. Just 2 months ago i was paying almost $200 a month .before i got the better generation rate.


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## Ashful

$148 for a whole month?  Can we trade wives?  Mine's petite and cooks like a pro, but her TV and lighting habits will cost you at least $100/week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seasoned Oak

Ashful said:


> $148 for a whole month?  Can we trade wives?  Mine's petite and cooks like a pro, but her TV and lighting habits will cost you at least $100/week.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


$129,was $148 last month. 
Thats with a 75" led tv,  2@ 55" LED tvs and a 32" Led tv going most of the time with 6 people in the place.  Mostly LED lights too.


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## cableman

Ive been 85-100 bucks for electric since i moved in sep 2015! And electric is high here, i dont know what im doing right. Im sure next couple months will be high as i just installed the geo and broke dwn turning central a/c on. Its set at 78 right now lol


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## Ashful

Seasoned Oak said:


> $129,was $148 last month.
> Thats with a 75" led tv,  2@ 55" LED tvs and a 32" Led tv going most of the time with 6 people in the place.  Mostly LED lights too.


Last I counted, I think we had 7 HDTV's and 205 incandescent bulbs.  If I'm out of the house more than three hours in the evening, I come in to find every darn one of them left on.  Considered switching to LED's, but given the high count of low-wattage bulbs, the economics simply weren't favoring it.

But I'm half kidding about the wife's impact on the electric bill.  The heavy hitters are our AC and dehumidifiers.  Winter usage is under 1500 kWh/month, which we almost double in summer.


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## maple1

That's almost 3x our winter usage.

I think I would be making changes, that's some heavy consumption.


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## Ashful

Smaller house?  ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seasoned Oak

[QUOTE="Ashful, post: 2089584, member: 22094" The heavy hitters are our AC and dehumidifiers. r.[/QUOTE]
Iv had good luck running only the second floor AC this year,leave al the bedroom doors open. I know iv tried it before and had mixed results ,but this year we do all our cooking outdoors on the gas grill,seems to have made all the difference. Season is almost past its peak an still havnt had to turn on the downstairs AC. The geospring helps with the dehumidification.


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## Ashful

Our house has three separate summer AC systems for north wing, central, south wing.  North wing has three floors all on same zone, which works fine when it's real hot and blower is cycling, less well when temps are more moderate and system goes longer between cycles.

My detached garage has a zone per floor, but with an open stairway, I just keep all zones set for same temperature.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## STIHLY DAN

Well I have my 1st issue with the Geospring. The drain is either clogged or the drain valve is faulty. They say to drain it once a year which I have, but this 4th year the drain is plugged up good. I have used 30lbs of water pressure in each direction and up to 100lbs of air pressure to the drain. Even tried a wire up the drain, At the moment I have the drain open and the water on to the tank, maybe after a few hours of a trickle the dam will burst.

This really isn't a big deal and is most likely a result of the aggressive Anode rods they use.


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## Seasoned Oak

I didnt know about the draining,ill have to remember that. I guess a lot depends on your water if you have mineral laden water ,iron and such.
I remember reading something about replacing the anode rod as well. All in all 4 years with no issues is not bad.


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## STIHLY DAN

No, not bad at all. Besides, Really won't need to worry about draining it till I have to remove it. Good luck getting an Anode rod, I have been waiting 2 years for F.W. webb to get one in.


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## cableman

You drain the whole tank or just enough to get the crap off the bottom? Does the manual say draining recommended? 
Im just wondering how and where i would drain it to as i dont have a drain in the floor.


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## semipro

I'm not sure if it would work with your Geospring but I typically replace the factory "boiler" drain valve with a quarter turn, full flow "ball valve".  This allows larger chunks of minerals to exit the tank and also allows me to insert an auger bit on a drill when the valve gets totally clogged.


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## Seasoned Oak

cableman said:


> You drain the whole tank or just enough to get the crap off the bottom? Does the manual say draining recommended?
> Im just wondering how and where i would drain it to as i dont have a drain in the floor.


I would think until the water runs clear. Just hook up a garden hose and find the nearest drain.


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## cableman

Seasoned Oak said:


> I would think until the water runs clear. Just hook up a garden hose and find the nearest drain.



I have an old washer drain prolly 3/4 the hight of the geo, i guess it should be enough to run it clear when i need to do that. Or are we suppose to shut unit off but leave water pressure on?


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## STIHLY DAN

Always shut unit off when draining. You could leave water on to flush the whole thing. Also when draining open a faucet on hot so you dont collapse the tank. Unless you have a vacuum breaker installed.


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## Ashful

How thin is that tank if you can collapse by simple gravity drain?  Agreed, opening an inlet will drain faster, but tank collapse?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## semipro

To flush I usually just shut off power and open the drain valve.  The incoming water pressure helps force sediment from the tank.  
To drain I shut off power, shut off water feed, open the drain valve and then manually open the pressure/temp release valve to allow air into the tank to displace the drained water.


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## STIHLY DAN

It can happen, on any tank, any brand. Thats why many states have the code of a vacuum breaker.


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## Seasoned Oak

Got my $400 Geospring rebate check from my Electric utility company. It nice to see money coming the other way from them,iv bveen paying them for many years.


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## Seasoned Oak

Starting to see the monthly savings. Aug 16 was avg 3 degrees hotter than Aug 15 and i still used 220KW less power in Aug 16. Seems around $30 or more, probaly close to $40 considering the AC is on overtime this year its hard to say what the Geospring is saving cuz the AC is on 24-7.


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## Seasoned Oak

Month 2 and the savings are up to $52 for Sept and $32 for Aug. So far thats $84 power savings in just 2 months.


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## Brian26

Seasoned Oak said:


> Month 2 and the savings are up to $52 for Sept and $32 for Aug. So far thats $84 power savings in just 2 months.



I actually monitored mine with my effergy energy monitor for a few months last year. I posted it about it somewhere in this thread. With the 2nd or 3rd highest electrical rates in the country here in CT (well over .20kwh delivered) mine cost less than $10 a month in power to run. I was really taken back on how little power it used when I first saw the numbers.


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