# "Clarification" of Effecta Boiler User



## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Jan 30, 2012)

I am making this post in an effort to "state/clarify the facts" regarding Effecta Boiler User.


Yes, we are the importer and North American Sales Agent for Effecta Lambda Boilers.

Yes, I have personally owned and operated an EKO40 boiler (purchased it from Cozy Heat) with 1,000 gallons of water storage for 3 years.

Yes, we were a Paxo boiler dealer for 2 years.

Yes, I currently own an Effecta Lambda 35 boiler with 1,000 gallons of water storage (my 2nd winter using it).

Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage.

Yes, we have assisted many EKO boiler users in Michigan with on-site trouble shooting visits.

Yes, we make it a practice of only stating information that we can back up with REAL facts/data.

Yes, I truly enjoy discussing and helping others figure out "root causes" to their boiler problems and applying solutions to correct these problems.

Yes, we have made a commitment to commercially advertise on Hearth.com in 2012 (you probably have seen our banner add by now).

No, we do not make it a practice to "bash" the competition.


I appologize if I/we have made anyone uncomfortable with our posts on Hearth.com but can assure you I/we had no intentions to mis-lead anyone or cause anyone to get mad/upset etc.

Thus, as a recent Hearth.com member suggested, I/we have changed our user name to EffectaBoilerAgent (USA/Canada) in an effort to clarify and substantitate the information we post on Hearth.com

Thank you for your understanding.

Brian Crawford, President
Up North Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC


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## huffdawg (Jan 30, 2012)

No problem Brian ! Its not hard to  tell from your posts  that you sell boilers.  Non of your posts have made me uncomfortable, and I enjoy reading them as most others .

But Ido get a kick out of how many times you say  effecta lambada 35  .


Cheers


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

Brian, It's been a pleasure talking boilers with you by the hours over the phone. I have no doubt anyone buying a boiler from you would receive superb customer service, Randy


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## taxidermist (Jan 30, 2012)

Brian is a good guy and if I had the money I too would sell my eko and go with a top of the line boiler like his. Brian has made a trip to my house to compare installs he has run the numbers on my system for me too.   Thanks Brian and keep up the good work!

Rob


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## henfruit (Jan 30, 2012)

Brian,Don't you sell a boiler with lambda ?


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Jan 30, 2012)

Yes, all effecta boilers use the lambda control system.

Effecta Lambda boilers use the CO2% feedback (via. a Bosch brand sensor) to control (2) separate 12 Volt stepper motors on the primary and secondary drafts.

Thus, the stepper motors on the effecta lambda boilers change continuously, throughout the entire burn, in an effort to maintain the user specified CO2%. Thus, when the boiler is cold the stepper motor drafts default to a 70% primary/30% secondary open position upon starting the boiler. As the boiler gets warmed up and a nice bed of coals is created (and the target CO2% is reached/exceeded), the primary draft begins to close and the secondary draft begins to open.

I like to compare this type of operation to an oxygen/acetylene cutting torch (too much acetylene causes a rich, sooty flame: too much oxygen and the flame cannot be created: with the perfect ratio of oxygen to acetylene this blue/purple colored flame can cut through a 1/2â€ steel plate).

Hope this helps!

Brian


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## ewdudley (Jan 30, 2012)

EffectaBoilerAgent (USA/Canada) said:
			
		

> Yes, all effecta boilers use the lambda control system.


Here's company that sells non-lambda effecta units, maybe you missed them in your market research:

http://www.upnorthenergy.com/lambda.html


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## heaterman (Jan 30, 2012)

*"Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage"*

I'm curious as to how you are getting around installing a non ASME rated pressurized boiler here in Michigan? If there is a "loophole" around the code I would love to hear it. As you know, it is illegal to install a non ASME rated boiler for use in a pressurized system here and that can raise a lot of problems with insurance if an "incident" occurs.   Just askin........


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## Noggah (Jan 30, 2012)

Hey Brian, Thanks for the clairification. I have greatly appreciated everyones opinions here and really enjoy reading the strings. No hard feelings here. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


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## goosegunner (Jan 30, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> *"Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage"*
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> I'm curious as to how you are getting around installing a non ASME rated pressurized boiler here in Michigan? If there is a "loophole" around the code I would love to hear it. As you know, it is illegal to install a non ASME rated boiler for use in a pressurized system here and that can raise a lot of problems with insurance if an "incident" occurs.   Just askin........



Is that anywhere on the property? In non living space like out building?  What about owner installs?

That would knock out a lot of nice boilers, Froling, Tarm, EKO, Viesmann, Vigas


gg


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## heaterman (Jan 30, 2012)

goosegunner said:
			
		

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Anywhere.
 A homeowner in Michigan is not able to pull a permit for a boiler regardless of whether it is rated or not. To be approved it has to be installed by a licensed boiler contractor. The boielr itself must be ASME rated as far as I know or it won't pass inspection.  Don't know as I agree with that policy 100% but that's a whole 'nuther discussion. 

The only units I install are ASME rated like Econoburn or else open like a Garn for that reason.


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## goosegunner (Jan 30, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

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How well would it work to run them unpressurized with treated water?

gg


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## DaveBP (Jan 30, 2012)

> How well would it work to run them unpressurized with treated water?



Look over Hansson's (occasional poster from Sweden) posts to see that is how they seem to run normally over there. Open vented expansion tanks upstairs or in the attic to develop the required static head of pressure down at the boiler in the basement. But I'm pretty sure he said they don't use water treatment chemicals routinely. 
They do use stainless steel expansion tanks though. They would probably rust out pretty quickly otherwise.


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## heaterman (Jan 30, 2012)

goosegunner said:
			
		

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That would be a good question for Brian. At the turn of the previous century an open expansion tank as described above was very common in many boiler systems.


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## huffdawg (Jan 30, 2012)

. I pulled a homeowners permit to wire my house. I had 2 journeymen  electricians do a couple small jobs while I was away at work.   The funny thing was all the work I did passed and the 2 small jobs they did failed . One of the jobs one electrician did actually gave me an electrical shock.  Obviuosly   contractors are not all bad  but just because they are certified doesn't guarantee good work.


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## henfruit (Jan 30, 2012)

Asme is something like the inspector in the meat packing houses? We know they don't look at every animal being processed but  they do get paid as if they have.just an other way to give some one a reason to get a pay check on our dime. Speaking of econoburn they claim they use ASME certified steel in there boilers.What is ASME certified steel??


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## bpirger (Jan 30, 2012)

I have to agree with huff on this one in a big way.  A license doesn't necessarily translate to doing it right, and certainly doesn't translate to do it with "best" practices.  Of course, this varies from contractor to contractor.  I've done nearly everything myself with the house build, and when I've had help (laying block, setting trusses, pouring concrete) I've usually had to "talk up" the contractor to do it what I consider the right way.  They don't disagree, they just often tell me it isn't necessary.  Overkill.  I have lots of overkill in my place.  But as is usually the case, I probably care about my place more than they do.  I think that is a great sign, when they care as much as I do.

Whenever work is done, you should know what you are getting, what it should be, and make sure it is there.  As a general rule, don't trust blindly.  You can usually quickly determine if they care or not....but you HAVE to do your own homework to know.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

DaveBP said:
			
		

> > How well would it work to run them unpressurized with treated water?
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If the code says unpressurized I wonder if a boiler with 10 psi on it because of a high mount attic tank would pass? I don't believe any of the codes say"not able to develop pressure". The Garn will only have limited pressure at floor level. I can see a scenario where a gung ho inspector wouldn't pass any solid fuel boiler unless ASME, Randy


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## DaveBP (Jan 30, 2012)

Well, hasn't this thread taken a merry waltz around the park...



> If the code says unpressurized I wonder if a boiler with 10 psi on it because of a high mount attic tank would pass? I donâ€™t believe any of the codes say"not able to develop pressureâ€. The Garn will only have limited pressure at floor level.



I assume the definition of pressurized means that as the temperature rises in the system the pressure also rises proportionally because the system is sealed. As you say, the Garn has LIMITED pressure according to how tall it is and that pressure does not change with system temperature. Same with the expansion tank in the attic scenario.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

DaveBP said:
			
		

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I have read codes for different states & that is never stated. While that makes sense, we are talking code here for crying out loud. My take on this is that Mich. does not want to see any home built pressure vessels. The others will probably rest with each individual inspector, Randy


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## stee6043 (Jan 30, 2012)

EffectaBoilerAgent (USA/Canada) said:
			
		

> I am making this post in an effort to "state/clarify the facts" regarding Effecta Boiler User.
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  Good post, Effecta.  I've found your posts very informative but initially I did feel a little bit like you were trying to come off as a user pushing very hard for a specific brand.  I've been on this board for a while and more than once I've seen new users pop up with 10 posts that start saying "Buy this boiler, it's the best, it can't be beat" and then they fade away never to be heard from again.  It's clear now you're not one of those guys.

  Other dealers here tend to be less agressive I'd say.  More of a "Hey, PM me for some info" type appraoch.  I really did think you were paid by the use of the term "effecta lambda 35" for a while there.  ha.

  And for what it's worth I too am a degreed ME, along with two masters degrees, but I didn't learn a darn thing about boilers in college!  ha.  Thanks again and sorry if I was one of the guys giving you a hard time...


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## stee6043 (Jan 30, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> *"Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage"*
> 
> I'm curious as to how you are getting around installing a non ASME rated pressurized boiler here in Michigan? If there is a "loophole" around the code I would love to hear it. As you know, it is illegal to install a non ASME rated boiler for use in a pressurized system here and that can raise a lot of problems with insurance if an "incident" occurs.   Just askin........



Not true, Heaterman.  Direct from the state of Michigan boiler code:

R 408.4047 Exempt boilers....
Rule 47. These rules do not apply to any of the following:
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(h) A water tube or coil type hot water heating boiler requiring forced circulation not
exceeding any 1 of the following:
(i) Maximum water temperature of 200 degrees Fahrenheit.
(ii) Relief valve set pressure of 30 psi.
(iii) Heat input of 200,000 BTU/hr.

I did a fair amount of reading before going forward with my EKO.  There are pleny of non-ASME stamped boilers in operation in Michigan, legally, operating at 30psi or less.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/dleg_bcc_boiler_code_rules_print_version_2010_326957_7.pdf


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## hobbyheater (Jan 30, 2012)

How well would it work to run them unpressurized with treated water?

gg[/quote]

I do not know about the treated water side. The system that I have used for 30 years is unpressurized with a 1000 gallon storage tank with a opened expansion tank higher up in the building. The water has never been treated and occasionally I do drain water from the lowest point but the water runs clear. I recently did a overhaul of the boiler and with a " Snake Mate" camera, went inside the heat exchanger.  The inside did not look much different than the outside.  The town's water is very soft and untreated.  The tank itself is overkill. It is a 5/8"riveted plate steel steam boiler with its tubes removed. 
The original wood boiler that heated the tank was a small Tasso cast iron down drafter with a net output 60,000 BTU. It only burnt 12" wood, but a full fire box load had the potential of around 300,000 BTUs.  My father, a retired steam engineer in his late 80s,  advised me not to go pressurized and he was pretty blunt.  Just asked me if I could fit 200,000 tanks in the basement.
The short side to this - corrosion has not been a problem, maybe in the future, but hopefully not in my life time.
Hope this info can be of some help.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

stee6043 said:
			
		

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Ste, It appears that H must be met. The EKO is not a water tube boiler, Randy


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## EffectaBoilerUser (USA) (Jan 30, 2012)

Thanks for the info. regarding the State of Michigan Boiler Code.

Yes, I agree with this statement regarding non-ASME presurized boilers operating in Michigan.

However, I am NOT a licensed HVAC guy and thus I do not pull permits for others.

I do provide schematics I have created which I have "run by" the mechanical inspectors in my two closet counties and who have given my schematics their approval.

It also comes down to the individual local inspectors in different counties. I know of several EKO40 installations that were installed by licensed boiler guys and inspected and approved by mechanical inspectors (the boilers have the normal green inspection labels affixed to them- I saw them first hand).

On another note, I must say that a large number of wood boiler and wood stove users that I know do not apply for permits when installing their equipment. Obviously I cannot force someone to pull a permit if they desire not to.

Regarding the operation of a system as an open system, YES it is very do able. However, most of us know that an open system requires more care with the water quality and often requires the use of heat exchangers to the system which add cost and inefficiencies. For those applications where a local inspector will not approve the installation as a pressurized system we also provide schematics on how to install the systems as "open systems".

Finally, l I have a hard time calling an extremely efficient (90% +), very easy to use, pressure rated, Lamda controlled, very attractive looking boiler "illegal". Rather, I would consider it as "Illegitimate" at best.

Brian


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## stee6043 (Jan 30, 2012)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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Define "water tube" boiler?  The EKO uses HX tubes to transfer heat to water.  I guess I don't know exactly what definition the state of Michigan proper intended here but since the words are not capitalized it leaves a bit up to interpretation.  And as stated above...EKO's are being inspected and are passing in Michigan.


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## woodsmaster (Jan 30, 2012)

A water tube is where the water being heated flowes threw the tubes to get heated.

A fire tube (eko) is where the hot flue gases flow threw the tubes to heat the water.

Water tubes can come in much larger sizes than the fire tube


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## huffdawg (Jan 30, 2012)

EKO's are fire tube which means the  hot exhaust gasses go through  tubes surronded by water.  water tube boilers are the opposite   where water run through tubes that are surronded by the hot exhaust gasses.



Huff


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

stee6043 said:
			
		

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A Greenwood is a watertube boiler. If the fire surrounds the outside of tubes filled with water you have a water tube boiler. The EKO is a firetube boiler. I am glad reason is prevailing there Stee. It would be nice if the code was rewritten though, Randy


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## huffdawg (Jan 30, 2012)

stee6043 said:
			
		

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Seems like the above statement  is stating that watertube boilers with a relief valve setting above  30 psi and temps that run above 200 Â°F  or put out more than 200,000 btu's are not legal.


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## huffdawg (Jan 30, 2012)

How long has the effecta lambada boiler been in production Brian?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

huffdawg said:
			
		

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No, water tube boilers are exempt from the many rules that are in place. A hobby locomotiove boiler needs to be inspected. lol, Randy


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

DaveBP said:
			
		

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Now that I have actually read the code for Mich, you are correct. I couldn't find it with a Google search. While this is not unpressurized, they will disregard the static starting pressure, Randy


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## heaterman (Jan 30, 2012)

Back in the office........

The issue that I have had raised is not with the boiler division. It's in the Mechanical code where section 1004.1 says,

_ "Boilers shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the requirements of ASME CSD-1 and as applicable, the ASME boiler and pressure vessel code, sections I, II,V and IX; NFPA8502 or NFPA8504_

Any boiler that I install as a contractor has to have a mechanical inspection, higher output units or commercial type applications have to have the boiler inspector look at them also.


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## heaterman (Jan 30, 2012)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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The issue is not so much that fact that there is pressure in the system but rather that it is sealed/closed. A circulator will cause a pressure rise in certain parts of the system even if it's "open".


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## hobbyheater (Jan 30, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

> The issue is not so much that fact that there is pressure in the system but rather that it is sealed/closed. A circulator will cause a pressure rise in certain parts of the system even if it's "open".



The circulator in my open system gives a 1 psi increase when turned on. 35 gpm through 12 ft 1" copper .


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## Singed Eyebrows (Jan 30, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

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Heaterman, have you heard of owners in Mich. that have been told to discontinue use of a pressure boiler that wasn't ASME?  It appears the inspectors are being reasonable, Randy


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## stee6043 (Jan 31, 2012)

Looks like I got lucky on this one. Although there are plenty of inspectors out there that do not know boiler code if in fact we don't qualify. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.


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## heaterman (Jan 31, 2012)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

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Only a couple and that was only because the inspector was involved in the first place. I did not hear the end result in either case as both are far away from my location. It seems that the people in charge do not understand, or choose to ignore the fact that 95% of these units are installed with no permit applied for and therefore no inspection. 
People who burn wood are a resourceful and crafty lot and most install their boiler with no contractor or other professional involvement. (Witness the success of this forum) Nearly all of these things go in with no inspection whatsoever and problems only surface when there is an insurance claim made and no payout is forthcoming.


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## goosegunner (Jan 31, 2012)

At times it makes going back to an OWB tempting. No worry of insurance or loss other than the boiler sitting out in the yard or field.

Guess that is why they are so appealing to many, basically hassle free. 

Gg


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## heaterman (Jan 31, 2012)

goosegunner said:
			
		

> At times it makes going back to an OWB tempting. No worry of insurance or loss other than the boiler sitting out in the yard or field.
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Nothing in life is free.
 That lack of hassle comes at the cost of excessive air pollution and poor efficiency plus the fact that we have the EPA involved in our lives because of said "lack of hassle".


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## goosegunner (Jan 31, 2012)

heaterman said:
			
		

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Don't get me wrong I enjoy my set up with storage. I do get a lot of strange looks from people I know that use owb's. When I explain that I heat for a day on the equivalent weight of 2 13" diameter pieces of oak, all they say is "but you have to split your wood"

They would rather stuff their 40 cubic foot firebox with 10-12 of the same pieces than split 2.


gg


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