# Who has a wood Doctor OWB



## BHetrick10 (Dec 7, 2010)

Sorry if this is in the wrong section.  I am a new-B  to this forum.  I think its lay out is confusing.... Anyway I have been looking into buying an OWB. I have been looking at Wood Doctor and Heatmaster.  Does anyone have any experience with either one? I have a few neighbors with the heatmaster.  I have been trying to find more info out on the Wood Doctor and cant seem to find anything.


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## rkusek (Dec 7, 2010)

I was in your shoes about 4 years ago but was looking at a Central Boiler instead when I found this site.  I think if you spend some time reading through the threads here you will decide against the OWB and go with a gassification boiler instead.  The OWB's in general are not a very good design prone to smoking excessively, burning much more wood than gassers or wood stoves, and destined to usually rust out prematurely.  The stainless steel ones fair only slightly better from what I hear.  A friend of mine bought a stainless Heatmoor about 3 years ago before I got my EKO 40.  I will keep everyone informed of how it does long term.  They have had good luck with it so far from what I've heard.  The smoke and wood consumption are issues that he probably doesn't mind.
Tarm, Econoburn, and EKO are probably the most common ones people are using here.  Some new ones are also out there like the Attack and the Paxo.  The Garn is something all of its own combining a built in 1500-2000 gallon storage and has been around for over 20 years with a great track record for simplicity, efficiency and durability.  Do yourself a favor and read up on the gassers before you buy the OWB, I'm glad I did!  If you have any plumbing knowledge or are handy in any way, you can probably lay out and install most if not all of a gasser setup on your own.  It may take longer than slapping an OWB on a pad and trenching a line to your house but if it lasts 3 times longer (20+ years), burns a 1/4 or a 1/3 of the wood, doesn't smoke out your family or your neighbors won't it be worth it?  OWB's go for about the same as the gassers, some  even cost more but the gassers will cost more in the end.  If you can do the install yourself and have cheap access to used propane tanks, you can but a great system together but you're probably looking at 10 grand, more or less depending on your needs.


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## rkusek (Dec 7, 2010)

Forgot to mention, take a look at www.nofossil.org One of the guys here chronicles his story of how he built his system and has some good info...Others here have links to their blogs were they have also documented their installs and their control schemes.


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## AOTO (Dec 7, 2010)

I recommend you do your own research and find out what is best for you. Personally I like the wood outside so the bugs and mess stay just that, outside. An OWB works for me and I have 2.6 acres of land.  Handling wood over and over takes the fun out of it. 
My Sequoyah is a phase I gassification system with 2 moving parts. These parts can be bought from McMaster Carr once your warranty expires. Stainless vs 1/4" plate is another topic, as we all have our views on that.  I say call up all of the dealers and see who can give you the best customer service because in the end, that is who you will have to deal with.  If you go w/an OWB, do not skimp on the pipe that goes in the ground. Unless you foam it in place yourself -spend the cash.  We all agree this is paramount.  Good luck.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 7, 2010)

BHetrick10 said:
			
		

> Sorry if this is in the wrong section.  I am a new-B  to this forum.  *I think its lay out is confusing.... *



Great way to start out :roll: 

Search the threads for "WoodDoctor". Read, read, read.

Personally, I'd be wary of buying ANYTHING in the middle of December with as little knowledge on the subject as you currently have. Mid summer you will know a TON more {assuming you keep reading and asking questions} and you'll prolly make a better decision . . . an informed one.

Welcome aboard!


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## AOTO (Dec 7, 2010)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> BHetrick10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I could not agree more....I'd wait the season out, read everything here and by the time you make a decision you'll be one informed wood burner!


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 7, 2010)

I was just being honest.  I was having trouble finding the right link to post under. I did search and could find anything.  Thanks for all the help so far.  I have been looking into OWB for three years now.  My shop is almost ready to heat and I'd rather spend the money than give it to uncle Sam.

I do not want any wood inside.  I am not certain a gasser is for me.  Seems like to local guys that sell them and have them dont care for them.  I was told by quite a few people around here that they are no where close to as efficient as the manufacture claims.  I was told may 10-20 percent tops  not 50 - 75 like others have stated.  I was also told they are tricky to get started and if its mild out side and you dont have good seasoned wood its hard to keep the fire going.  Like stated this is just info that I have been told by some manufactures.

Also I will be heating my shop which is 3,500 SF and in a year or two be building a house.  I am not sure on the size of the house but probably 3,000 - 4,000SF.  The shop has radiant in floor and so will the house.

I have not seen an outdoor gasser for 7,000 SF.  Plus I am not sure I like all the extra weld in them.  Just thinking out loud.  Thanks for the info.


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## AOTO (Dec 7, 2010)

Check out this one.  This is mine.  http://www.wdheat.com/Gasification E3400.htm  They say 12,000 SQ FT, personally in the real world, if you used both outlets you could get 7000.  I was heating easily 5784 w/Domestic water too.  Maybe 12,000 in a brand new efficiency house.

The pipe I recommend is ;  http://www.urecon.com/documents/pdfs/brochures/Urecon_PEX-Flex.pdf

Again, do your own research.

I actually built a wood shed I could drive around to load my little trailer every day.  Once at night and then in the morning.  Good luck with whatever you choose.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 7, 2010)

BHetrick10 said:
			
		

> I was just being honest.  I was having trouble finding the right link to post under. I did search and could find anything.  Thanks for all the help so far.  I have been looking into OWB for three years now.  My shop is almost ready to heat and I'd rather send the money than give it to uncle Sam.
> 
> I do not want any wood inside.  I am not certain a gasser is for me.  Seems like to local guys that sell them and have them dont care for them.  I was told by quite a few people around here that they are no where close to as efficient as the manufacture claims.  I was told may 10-20 percent tops  not 50 - 75 like others have stated.  I was also told they are tricky to get started and if its mild out side and you dont have good seasoned wood its hard to keep the fire going.  Like stated this is just info that I have been told by some manufactures.
> 
> ...



Try here https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/search_results/c6b7b70fb13a5043ea51e4c719aa426f/

You need to understand the different types of efficiency ratings. Then you need to ignore the manufacturers and salesmen when they quote efficiency numbers.

As far as tricky to get started . . . LOL. How often you plan on starting fires? My fire were not none too tricky to start this year . . . lil newpaper, lil pine branches, lil tinder from the boiler room floor, and a common lighter. Next time I start a fire - October or November 2011 - I hope it is not so tricky.


I have no wood in my house either, so I can't agree with you more there.

Here's the deal . . . almost no one here has any financial interest in what manufacturer you choose. A couple of the good salesmen around here identify themselves as such and are very helpfull, even when the question is not about their unit. The bad salesmen well, yeah, they sux. But you'll spot them a mile away :smirk:  I highly doubt you are going to find a better information source regarding wood fired hydronic unit than you will here. It's certainly going to be better than what some salesman is whispering in your ear.


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## hoogie (Dec 7, 2010)

Just to ad my two cents worth in here...I have an empyer pro 200 gasser and couldnt be happier with it...and the learning curve verse a nongasser didnt take long...profab is a good company any questions that i've had they always been there and quick to call when i've had to leave a mess. and look at the pro400 that has the heat range for the sq you said that you were looking to heat. I unlike many others on this site dont like the wood inside and with my unit only yards from my wood pile makes it super nice. and for the sq footage that i heat 2200 old house and another 2200 for the attached garage with the heat kept inside at 75 and garage kept above freezing unless i'm out there workin in which its 50-55 with exchanger on usage seems pretty small somewhere around 6-7.5 cords nice seasoned wood. The main thing is support, go with the company that you feel give you the best support. priceless


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 7, 2010)

hoogie said:
			
		

> Just to ad my two cents worth in here...I have an empyer pro 200 gasser and couldnt be happier with it...and the learning curve verse a nongasser didnt take long...profab is a good company any questions that i've had they always been there and quick to call when i've had to leave a mess. and look at the pro400 that has the heat range for the sq you said that you were looking to heat. I unlike many others on this site dont like the wood inside and with my unit only yards from my wood pile makes it super nice. and for the sq footage that i heat 2200 old house and another 2200 for the attached garage with the heat kept inside at 75 and garage kept above freezing unless i'm out there workin in which its 50-55 with exchanger on usage seems pretty small somewhere around 6-7.5 cords nice seasoned wood. The main thing is support, go with the company that you feel give you the best support. priceless



Pictures, or it didn't happen


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## hoogie (Dec 8, 2010)

pictures of what? the install? I do have a thread on arboristsite.com i'm under the same name as here. I did a lot of picture install pics. of the unit the trench i dug for the cheaper pex lines that on a 100ft run i only loose one degree of heat from the burner to the house which alot of people say it cant be done but proof is in the pudding, i dont have anything against the expensive thermo pex you prob. should use it if you dont have the ability to bury your lines deep mine are at least 50" deep...Also on the other site i've got a log on usage non-bias of my burner, that someone will and should expect the same issues that i had to deal with. And like i said on the previous post support is the main thing...dont really care what burner this gentleman goes with all i can do is tell em about my experience of what i got. If you dont have a company willing to stand behind there product and willing to help when you hit a bump in the road and you will theres no doubt about that it is all pointless...I should also mention that the reason that i went with Empyer is that my neighbor has an older unit that is not a gasser, I could of went with a unit like his and saved over 3grand but due to how the house are set up around us i thought that 2 of those smoke dragons side by side would cause a little uproar, so i choose to run with the phase 2 cert. gasser and boy am i glad that i did, but the neighbor had his unit for 4 yrs. before i got mine and had nothin but praise for the Profab company...I could of went with a CB and there just down the road from me but choose not to due to the troubles and hickups others were having with there E series gassers...But i suppose i can post pics here, i'll try to figure it out...also if you notice in the clean burn pic i circled the light to show its in full burn with no smoke outta the stack. hope ya believe now...lol and dont mind all the pics...Hoogie


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## BHetrick10 (Dec 9, 2010)

Ok so the search continues.  I talk to Royall (bought out Sequoyah)  about there gassers.  I told them I would be heating my shop now (3,500) SF and adding a house down the road.  They told me that I would hurt the stove with having a smaller than designed for load on it untill the house was done.  They also stated they could answer how often I would have to reload.  I typical am not around for 10 hours or more.  They wore concerned that I may not have a long enough burn time and that the fire would go out.  He recommended a Royall 6300 to me.  It is a pressurized boiler.  It only has 135 gal of storage.  He said its more like a oil boiler "make heat when you need it and shuts down when you don't.  Stated that would consumption is more related to actual BTU needed.  He said they have paper proof that it will consume 17% less wood than a reg. OWB. It looks like a nice product, cost 8,594 and a local guy carries them.  There indoor and out door models are the same.  Does anyone have any experience with Royall boilers?  

Are there Gassers that can handle my current space and also handle having 3,500SF added down the road?

I need something out side and have no room for storage (At least I dont want to give any space up) maybe after the house is built I will.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 9, 2010)

Thanks for postin the pics Hoogie! I don't recall ever seeing anyone else here with an Empyre 200 outdoor unit. Their indoor unit is sexy as hell. Your unit also looks pretty clean, and it sounds like its working well for you.


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## flyingcow (Dec 9, 2010)

Good Luck in your research. 

My unit is next door in my garage. i stack my wood right off the splitter onto pallets. Move pallets in when I need them. I too did not have any room for wood in house. 

With my setup i spend 10 to 15 minutes starting a fire and thats typically all I have to do in 24 hours. In the sub-zero time, i may usually have to got restock the boiler once. Works very well for me. 

Figure with an OWB 1 cord=100gals of oil(this number was given to me by the E-Classic Central Boiler salesman.
A typical gasser 1 cord of wood=150 gals sometimes closer to 175 gals. This number i have verified with my own experience.


From your info, I'd lean towards a GARN in a nice out building. performs as well as a gasser.

Also, how close is your neighbors? Once in a while you can get into problems with smoke issues.


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## Como (Dec 10, 2010)

The Garn is a gasser.

I always wondered why when talking about OWB's they usually refer to sq ft when every other boiler system would refer to its output in btu's/kw?

I looked at the Royall site and they do refer to btu output, but not how often you would need to reload, they give the impression it would burn all day.

If you look at the 6250, fire box say you could cram in a 1/10th  of a cord. Not sure is that is feasible. Say you had good hardwood at 25m btu a cord. Assume 50% efficiency which is probably over the top and you have 1.25m btu, or 5 hours at 250k per hour.

These are very generous assumptions.

I would start with a heat loss calculation and go from there. As far as the house is concerned  to some extent the heat loss is in your own control.


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## Como (Dec 10, 2010)

flyingcow said:
			
		

> Figure with an OWB 1 cord=100 gals of oil(this number was given to me by the E-Classic Central Boiler salesman.
> A typical gasser 1 cord of wood=150 gals sometimes closer to 175 gals. This number i have verified with my own experience.



100 gallon of oil is about 14m btu. Say 13m net with a high efficiency boiler.

So they are suggesting c 50% efficiency, which whilst being a lot less than their advertised 97% efficiency is probably higher than that achieved in real life.

I just looked at the specs for the E3200, at maximum burn they say it will put out about 2.5m btus over nearly 8 hours.

Firebox is 16 cu ft, 1/8th of a cord if you could pack it in. Using 25m btu's a cord that is about 3m gross so it would need to be over 80% efficient.

So we have 3 numbers...

It would be interesting to know what the actual numbers are.


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## Birdman (Dec 10, 2010)

I have had my Tarm for 3 years. I almost bought a OWB. It would have been the biggest mistake. Keep researching. A gassifier is teh only way to go in my mind. And yes... I have about 4 OWB dealers in a 30 mile radius. AND... still happy I went with a Tarm. I hope you really read and think before you purchase. I read on htis site for like 20 hours before I purchased. 

I really think it would help prospective buyers if they could go see some of these products. ANd by that i mean not dealers... but the people who owm them. 

It would be a no brainer... gassifiers are easy to use.. and the efficiency is at least twice what an OWB is


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Dec 10, 2010)

I didn't get to this site till after I purchased. I had ordered a CB the year b4. I am so fortunate that they lost my info/forgot to order for me/ or whatever happened at that dealer. I was talking this morning to a guy who loads his neighbors OWB for him when the neighbor goes away.

"I bet the box is 4' deep. Big rounds {he describes with his arms} 7 or 8 at a time" And I'm like . . . .Dayumnn, I am so glad I didn't get an OWB. Yes, I load big rounds. Usually 2 though. And on crazy cold nights, 4 if they will fit. I can't imagine running that much wood through. I figure I go through 8 cord now. Conservativly estimating I'd go through 16 cord for the heating season. Where does all that extra wood go?!! :bug: 

To me, the dealer means *nothing*. Is he gonna come over and cut the extra wood and load it? Is he gonna tell me anything I can't figure out on my own or from another burner who has no financial incentive?

LOL, the CB dealer I almost bought an OWB from recently built a new house using some of his ridiculous profits. Guess what??!? No OWB at his new house!! :lol:  :lol:


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## hoogie (Dec 10, 2010)

wow it really is funny how different two sites can be. This one is pro inside with storage gasser, and arborists is geared more towards the owb side. When I chose to put in an alternate heating system, i studied the pros and cons of both the inside models and outside models for over a year. One thing is for sure between the two site seems everyone is pro gasser which they should be in my opinion. For the square footage that i'm heating and what others are for wood usage if there is any difference it might be a half to three quarter cord difference between my outside gasser and someones inside gasser. I dont wanna get into a peein match with anyone on this or any other site about which one is better, all i know is that in my application an owb what a better option for me, which came at like i said before a lot of hours prob. to many if you ask my wife..lol and as for a dealers help...the post above might be right, but i happen to like the idea of my dealer callin up outta the blue and askin me how things are goin and if i have any concerns...sure does give me a warm feeling inside to know that someone will take care of ya if something happens to go wrong...which in this world all to often don't happen after the sale is done...One this is for sure inside or outside everyone can debate the numbers, But without sites and members like this one and arborists the journey and studying would be a lot more tedious...


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## wvwoodchuck (Dec 10, 2010)

Mine is not a gasser, but I still like it anyway.  Do you have to build a fire everyday for a gasser?
I don't know how much wood mine will use yet, this is my first winter with it.  

The best advice for just about anything is, get the best possible with what you can afford.


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## hoogie (Dec 10, 2010)

wvwoodchuck said:
			
		

> Mine is not a gasser, but I still like it anyway.  Do you have to build a fire everyday for a gasser?
> I don't know how much wood mine will use yet, this is my first winter with it.
> 
> The best advice for just about anything is, get the best possible with what you can afford.




As for building a fire, no I started my empyer pro200 back in the first week of Oct. and she'll run threw the heating season without having to relight the fire...Load twice a day, and i choose the evening load when there is just a bed of choals left.


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## shagy (Dec 12, 2010)

"LOL, the CB dealer I almost bought an OWB from recently built a new house using some of his ridiculous profits. Guess what??!? No OWB at his new house!! 

Damn! For the last 18 yrs I haven't been charging enough!


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## Greenfield Dave (Dec 15, 2010)

I have a Wood doctor 8000 heating a 2500 sq ft old farmhouse, recently renovated with blown in insulation, new windows, siding (tyvek underneath) with boiler heat.  Before the renovation, the winter gas bill was over $500 a month, and the house never got over 68 degrees.  now, my gas bill is nothing, and I can wear shorts in January if I want.  BUT, there is NO way it could possibly heat 8000 sq ft efficiently.  I have had it 6 seasons now, and it has paid for itself in natural gas savings, but it is one wood eating mother!  As a newbie back then myself, I threw any type and dryness of wood in the thing, and it did burn, but smoked like crazy.  After years of learning, I now only burn dry wood, mostly hickory, and it does not smoke much at all.  I added a 36X48 garage heated with radiant floors to about 50 degrees, and it doesn't seem to be using much more wood than last season.  But, and sit down for this one, I am burning nearly 20 ricks a year  (4x8x16") That's a lot more than they claim!  I have a buddy that bought one at the same time I did; small ranch house, small barn, still burns 10+ ricks a year...

So, now ask yourself: Do I want to spend my time cutting and splitting wood, or my money on a gasser with storage?  Or on a high efficiency gas boiler?  

If you decide on outdoor wood heat, dig the trench between the furnace and the house deep and wide, and have a contractor foam it in.  Don't scrimp on the little stuff, it adds up quickly in losses!

Honestly, if I had it to do again, I would learn a lot more before my purchase, then make an informed decision.  For instance, now, I can buy a modulating boiler that uses a lot less gas than my old inside boiler, AND I don't have to cut wood! AND I get a tax break.  But my money is stuck in a wood furnace.  So I will live with my decision, and happily cut wood until it dies, then start the process over again!!

Happy Hunting!
Dave


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## Greenfield Dave (Dec 15, 2010)

I have a Wood doctor 8000 heating a 2500 sq ft old farmhouse, recently renovated with blown in insulation, new windows, siding (tyvek underneath) with boiler heat.  Before the renovation, the winter gas bill was over $500 a month, and the house never got over 68 degrees.  now, my gas bill is nothing, and I can wear shorts in January if I want.  BUT, there is NO way it could possibly heat 8000 sq ft efficiently.  I have had it 6 seasons now, and it has paid for itself in natural gas savings, but it is one wood eating mother!  As a newbie back then myself, I threw any type and dryness of wood in the thing, and it did burn, but smoked like crazy.  After years of learning, I now only burn dry wood, mostly hickory, and it does not smoke much at all.  I added a 36X48 garage heated with radiant floors to about 50 degrees, and it doesn't seem to be using much more wood than last season.  But, and sit down for this one, I am burning nearly 20 ricks a year  (4x8x16") That's a lot more than they claim!  I have a buddy that bought one at the same time I did; small ranch house, small barn, still burns 10+ ricks a year...

So, now ask yourself: Do I want to spend my time cutting and splitting wood, or my money on a gasser with storage?  Or on a high efficiency gas boiler?  

If you decide on outdoor wood heat, dig the trench between the furnace and the house deep and wide, and have a contractor foam it in.  Don't scrimp on the little stuff, it adds up quickly in losses!

Honestly, if I had it to do again, I would learn a lot more before my purchase, then make an informed decision.  For instance, now, I can buy a modulating boiler that uses a lot less gas than my old inside boiler, AND I don't have to cut wood! AND I get a tax break.  But my money is stuck in a wood furnace.  So I will live with my decision, and happily cut wood until it dies, then start the process over again!!

Happy Hunting!
Dave


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