# Pellets versus Oil



## houset (Apr 25, 2008)

Here's something i don't understand that somebody can enlighten me.. This year alone, i spent 3300 in the cost of Oil to heat my home.  So I decided that for next year, that 3300 is money well spent elsewhere, so i bought a Pellet Stove (Chose it over Coal and Wood for maintenance and cleaner).  From what i read, it typically takes about 3 tons to burn your pellet stove from Oct - Mar.  So with Pellets being about ~200 a ton, i am looking at 600 total for the winter.

So my question results from a few posts I've been reading that states Pellets are in-line with Oil in terms of Pricing.  If that's the case, wouldn't i expect to be purchasing 15 tons of Pellets during that same time frame if Pellets and Oil are roughly the same price.  Even if it was 6 tons (approx 1 ton per month), I'd still be in the black by about 2000.00 The numbers don't quite add up to me.

I live in Central PA and within 50 miles here from 2 major pellet suppliers, so i thought this route was my best alternative. Maybe the statement aboves varies by region where pellets are much pricier.


PS.. Clearly, i live in a very poorly insulated home, so I do plan on investing this summer in improving that aspect. (new windows and insulation in those that need it).  So this winter, it will not be a full apples to apples comparison. However, I am too scared to ever attempt to burn oil for the full winter again to test it out.


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## TboneMan (Apr 25, 2008)

You need to be careful with your calculations.  If you are using that much fuel, you'll need more pellets.

It makes more sense to figure your total BTU requirements.

Using estimates:

$3,300 of fuel oil = 900 gallons of fuel

Fuel oil BTU/gal = 139,000

900 gallons of fuel = 1,125,900,000 BTUs

wood pellet BTU/pound = 8500

Wood Pellets BTU/Ton = 17,000,000

Equiv. tons of pellets = 7.3 

I made the same mistake when I was planning my pellet stove purchase.   I was using more pellets than I thought I would.  I added up my propane use and performed a similar calculation and discovered that I would actually need 4-5 tons (as apposed to the typical 3 tons usually advertised)  That's estimate came close to my actual pellet usage. 

Granted you're still going to save, but you pay-back time is a bit longer.  

(**Note this number are estimates, other factors impact actual usage like stove location in the house, house layout, comfort level).


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## PutnamJct (Apr 25, 2008)

A lot is going to depend on if you will be able to keep the house the same temperature with the pellet stove as oil. My house was designed with a FA Oil furnace and is ducted as such. With oil, you know the whole house will remain the same temperature.

If your pellet stove is located in an area of the house that the heat will radiate throughout the house on its own(like mine) then it probably will work. At the least it will need to be able to get the heat to whatever livable space you want heated. There are many threads discussing trying to get heat from room A to room B, up and down stairs, around the bend, etc. This is probably the biggest issue when making the switch: getting the heat where you want it.

A lot of the cost comparisons are based on BTU per dollar spent, but that debate does not take into consideration the above factors. Instead of 1200 gallons of oil, I used a little over 4 tons for the season. My 4 tons cost a little over $900 delivered. Oil at $3.59 would have cost me well over $4,000.

I already have next years supply, I paid $955 including delivery. I don't have to worry about a mouse farting in Nigeria causing a barrel of oil to rise again. I doubt heating oil prices are going to drop substantially between now and next season. Too many farting mice and speculators making a fortune off of commodities.

Pellets work for me. But you will get replies that will tell you that the BTU numbers do not work and that I am kidding myself. (search forum for nuclear pellets) 

The only numbers that will matter are your checkbook and how warm your house is.

John


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## davevassar (Apr 25, 2008)

For my specific situation, I personally think BTU info is crap. Here's why. I have an open floorplan with 18 ft ceilings in the living area. With just oil, I go through about 100 gallons of oil per month keeping my house at 68 duriong the night, and 69-70 during the day.

With my pellet stove, burning Barefoot pellets, with my stove on Medium high on cold days, my house stays at about 72. The master bedroom which is behind the stove setup, is usually about 2 degrees cooler. Upstairs is usually 2 degrees warmer.

So, with oil at 3.96 per gallon burning 100 gallons per month for November, December, January and February, it would have cost me $1600 in oil at 68-70 degrees.

Instead, I went through a ton per month at $229 per ton at 72 degrees in the living area. Which equals out to $916, which is almost a $700 savings, plus the benefit of being warmer.


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## smoke show (Apr 25, 2008)

Now that's some very good reading for those of us thinking of buying a pellet stove.Keep those comparisons coming!


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## smirnov3 (Apr 25, 2008)

The thing about comparing oil to pellets on a BTU scale is that ignores where the heat goes.

For instance, we spend most of our time downstairs (where the stove is). The upstairs is much cooler, but that's not a problem. During Jan / Feb when the upstairs is too cold, we turn the oil heat on a little at night.

Before we bought the stove, we would burn 800 gallons of oil a winter

this year, I went through 5 tons of pellets and 200 gallons of oil.

5 tons (delivered) cost me $1100, and replaced 600 gallons of oil

The lowest oil price was if we had locked in last spring @ $2.65 x 600 = $1590

If we had bought oil @ market value during the winter, we would have paid over $1900 for that much oil

Which is all nice, but the reason that we bought the stove was half environmental and half so that our money would go to support Canada rather than terrorists / nations that are self-proclaimed enemies of the USA (cough Venezuala cough).


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## webbie (Apr 25, 2008)

We've been through this dozens of times - but when making comparisons, only BTU's really is accurate.
That, AND, you have to figure initial cost, servicing, parts replacement, life of product, etc.

The reasoning is relatively simple. A person comparing to Gas (or even oil) COULD install a free standing stove which burned those fuels, and therefore save the same amount in terms of space heat vs. central heat. 

If people bought pellets stoves ONLY for a savings of money, there would be vastly fewer sold. But they don't. People have lots of reasons, from local and renewable fuel to having a fire to look at. Many people like the gadget factor....something to fuss with. Granted, at the present price of oil pellets is looking better, but keep in mind that the million+  pellets stoves out there were purchased when oil was $1.50 to $2.50 a gallon.


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## TboneMan (Apr 25, 2008)

As I stated in my note at the end of my previous post, the example I published does not take other structural characteristics into consideration.

My point was if he's using 800-1000 gal of fuel, he can't replace all of that heat (BTU's) with just  3 tons of pellets.  The number just don't work out.  He will still save a considerable amount of money (as I did) but he should plan on needing more than 3 ton of pellets.  


In davevassar's situation, he used 100 gal of oil a month.  Doing the BTU estimate, that equates to 0.82 tons (41 bags).  That's close enough to estimate a 1 ton per month requirement (which he states is what he uses).   

My point was to ignore the published average tonnage and estimate tonnage by actual experience.   If you over estimate the number pellets you can always save them for the next year.  Adjust the next purchase according to real experience.


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## sylvestermcmonkey (Apr 25, 2008)

houset, I created a spreadsheet to compare the cost of heating my home with oil vs. pellets and determined that pellets would indeed cost me significantly less, but I suggest going from $3300 to $600 is unrealistic. The math just doesn't add up.

To accurately compare the two, you need to determine ALL the variables involved, the most difficult to determine will be relative efficiencies and heat content. Realistic efficiencies for pellet stoves are hard to come by, and since the grade and quality of pellets varies so widely, their BTU content is also difficult to determine. Then you have to project future repair and maintenance and a lot of other unpredictable quantities like the cost of pellets vs. oil and whether you really want to lug that many bags into your home every winter. Bear in mind the cost of pellets is not unrelated to the cost of oil either, as is so much of the stuff we do and use.

If you want a copy of my spreadsheet PM me and I'll send it your way.

Pellets are just one more potential fuel source, and it's a good idea to have redundant supplies of them. Right now pellets are a cheaper fuel than oil, but who knows what the future will bring. Surely our culture cannot endure $120/bbl oil without fundamental and significant change. Such "change" is rarely peaceful.

It's also a good idea to invest in insulating your home. As long as oil, gas, pellets, coal, and electricity aren't free, that investment is guaranteed to pay for itself - eventually.


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## PutnamJct (Apr 25, 2008)

Using Thoneman's calculations above (7.3 tons) for the season, if OP can get pellets for $200 per ton, he is spending $1600 for 8 tons of pellets vs $3300 for 900 gallons of oil at this season's prices. 

As long as the pellet stove keeps the part of his house warm that he wants it to, he comes out ahead. 

This is purely the money argument and does not take into consideration the gadget factor, the green factor or the not giving money to Chavez, OPEC and/or Ackmajinidad factor to boot.


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## pegdot (Apr 26, 2008)

All good points but I'd like to emphasis the difference between a central system versus a space heater. No matter how new or well insulated you lose some heat from a central system through the duct work before it reaches the living areas of your home. That is just like throwing BTU's out the window. With a space heater you get every BTU the unit produces in the living area. I'm really not certain how legitimate it is to compare a pellet stove to a central heating system of any type. It would likely be more accurate to compare it to other kinds of space heaters. 

In our situation we replaced a 100,000 BTU oil furnace with a pellet stove that's only rated to heat 2,100 sq. ft. Our house is only a little over 1,400 sq. ft. so it does a really good job of keeping us warmer than we'd be with the furnace. The big difference is that while the pellet stove does a good job of keeping a warm house warm it struggles to reheat the house if the inside temperature has dropped due to the stove being turned off or set to low. The furnace was rated to do that. The stove simply isn't so, the trick for us has been to never allow the house to get below about 65 degrees. Not a big deal but if I need to shut the stove off for cleaning I turn on a couple of ceramic heaters to help keep the temperture up. 

Just for the record we burned 2 1/2 tons in a poorly insulated house in a southern climate this year. $650 for pellets versues the minumum of $1800 we'd have spent on oil. Even with the occassional use of those ceramic heaters our power bill dropped running the stove rather than the furnace. Factor in the cost of gas to get pellets and I still figure that the stove will pay for itself before the mid point in next years heating season.


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## iceman (Apr 26, 2008)

this is a very interesting topic
i use a pellet stove for about 800-1000 sq it beats the hell outta elec....   however, one thing that we must agree on is your setup (how well the air can move)
and you insulation value and where you place the stove .....
EVERYTHING  is cheaper than oil right now....  1600 for pellets is better than 3300 for oil.... but oil wil stabilize soon could be 4.25 gal or something but it will start to stabilize  .... then pellets and gas will go up ...pellets will be around 300 ton within 2yrs  ..but you will still be cheaper
most of the time pellets do not equate to oil 1 for 1 ...if you spend 3500 in oil you will not spend 600 in pellets ...unless your furnace was pre 1980 or something like 60% eff  and if thats the case you are prolly better to get a new furnace...
i wouldve paid 3500+ this year in oil my house 3000+sq ft  
i did burn 2 tons of pellets 
about 4 cords of wood (from dec 1st) 
less than 100 gallons of oil (had to heat the basement kept it at 55 unless company came)
and i do have a gas insert in my den that has therm so that stayed at 60
normally (this year) like i said 3500 in oil (900-1000 gals)
i spent 400 on pellets close to 1000 on wood (that was a nightmare) and gas bill was about 75 month  about 30 -40 for heat
plus 300 for oil.  it cost me almost 2000 (i stillhave wood so subtract some)  i saved a bunch but there were many things i had to do to "replace my furnaces eff"
so the point i am making is to assume 3 tons is eq to 900 gallons is false MOST OF THE TIME (i would say 85-90%) unless there are other factors
my furnace is relatively new runs at 88.7% so you can see why my savings is great but not  600-vs 3500
i suggest you look at it like this...   if you are in cold weather climate figure 1 ton a month for a cold winter  from (around here)  dec-mar .  so for me it would be 30bags for oct and april and 25-35 bags for nov =5-6tons i would get depending on price and how much i had leftover from last year
personally i think the op will be around 5.5 -6 tons


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## TboneMan (Apr 28, 2008)

"The big difference is that while the pellet stove does a good job of keeping a warm house warm it struggles to reheat the house if the inside temperature has dropped due to the stove being turned off or set to low."

I learned this lesson in a much less forgivable climate.  I thought I'd be able to run the pellet stove like I run the furnace (programmable thermostat, basically only heating while at home and awake).   This however, didn't work well.  In order to keep the house comfortable I had to heat 24/7.  

All my "heating" appliances (range/oven, hot water, furnace, clothes drier) are propane.  I calculated that the furnace accounted for 2/3 of the total propane usage.  Despite having to buy more than the "average" number of pellets (I too, was hoping to get away with just 3 ton), I'm still in line to save about $1,000 this year.  I'm buying 5 ton this spring.   The savings from buying early vs during the heating season, equates to getting the 5th ton almost FREE.


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## Shooter (Apr 28, 2008)

pegdot said:
			
		

> All good points but I'd like to emphasis the difference between a central system versus a space heater. No matter how new or well insulated you lose some heat from a central system through the duct work before it reaches the living areas of your home. That is just like throwing BTU's out the window. With a space heater you get every BTU the unit produces in the living area. I'm really not certain how legitimate it is to compare a pellet stove to a central heating system of any type. It would likely be more accurate to compare it to other kinds of space heaters.
> 
> In our situation we replaced a 100,000 BTU oil furnace with a pellet stove that's only rated to heat 2,100 sq. ft. Our house is only a little over 1,400 sq. ft. so it does a really good job of keeping us warmer than we'd be with the furnace. The big difference is that while the pellet stove does a good job of keeping a warm house warm it struggles to reheat the house if the inside temperature has dropped due to the stove being turned off or set to low. The furnace was rated to do that. The stove simply isn't so, the trick for us has been to never allow the house to get below about 65 degrees. Not a big deal but if I need to shut the stove off for cleaning I turn on a couple of ceramic heaters to help keep the temperture up.
> 
> Just for the record we burned 2 1/2 tons in a poorly insulated house in a southern climate this year. $650 for pellets versues the minumum of $1800 we'd have spent on oil. Even with the occassional use of those ceramic heaters our power bill dropped running the stove rather than the furnace. Factor in the cost of gas to get pellets and I still figure that the stove will pay for itself before the mid point in next years heating season.



Good point.  Sheet-"rock" being what it is....a huge stone heatsink covering the walls of the home....this something to keep in mind.  Those rooms furthest from the stove would benefit from another (temporary) heat source to boost heat rise times.


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## Tinman (May 3, 2008)

Here is a easy way to figure how many tons of pellets to order based on the number of gallons of oil used. 
7 Gallons of oil = 121 Lbs of Pellets.
To size a stove Multiply SqFT By one of these 3 numbers If you house is well insulated X 20 Not much insulation X 40 between these two use X 30 
1500 Sq Ft House well insulated would be 1500 X 20 = 30,000 BTU
these numbers have always worked for me


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## MainePellethead (May 3, 2008)

I throw the BTU theory(even though it may work for some) right out the window. I am a plain and simple look at the hard core savings right in the face. I had my Quadra~Fire installed on Jan. 8th of this year....from Jan. 8th until now I used $340.00 worth of pellets and stayed toasty warm.  If I was using my furnace at todays oil prices...I would have used at least $340.00 in oil JUST for January. Now THATS real "easy figuring" facts. I estimate for the whole season next winter will cost me 600-700 instead of 2 grand. Doesnt take a 30 year rocket scientist figure that no brainer out that my pellet stove is far better than my furnace. I have a pretty good insulated house. (1270 sq. ft.)  Now thats my savings this winter....wheres yours?


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## Tinman (May 3, 2008)

I installed a Harman p68 3 years ago I locked in my propane based on what I used the year before and I just finished using in 3 years what I would use in just the winter my house is just under 2400 sqft and I was nice and toasty warm I burn 5 tons a year. I have been in the heating bus. for 20 years and my pellet and coal customers call me all the time to tell me how much they saved screw the arabs this year I am doing some solar hot water!!


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## UpStateNY (May 4, 2008)

TboneMan said:
			
		

> You need to be careful with your calculations.  If you are using that much fuel, you'll need more pellets.
> 
> It makes more sense to figure your total BTU requirements.
> 
> ...



*Math correction in the above post*

900 gallons * 139,000 BTUs  = 125,900,000 BTUs

The above post wrongfully stated
900 gallons of fuel = 1,125,900,000 BTUs

The other numbers look good.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 4, 2008)

Upstate, thanks for the correction.

For those planning, use the BTU numbers, to which please add the efficiency of the heating device.  I suppose a new oil furnace (I don't know from experience as I have a geothermal heat pump/electric) gets at least 85% efficiency and doubt any pellet/wood/coal/corn stove does any better than 80%, consider equal if you like, but there is no efficiency advantage to stoves.  Also add chimney cleaning, if you DIY, great then consider you work recreation if you like.  

Anyone who says they are staying warmer throughout their home by expending fewer BTUs in their home is giving you bad advice.  If they use fewer BTUs they have less heat.

Besides Geothermal Electric I use wood and hard coal, I like the Geothermal best...and as long as electric rates are held down by regulation, and I'm in an area that generates most of its electric power form coal and nuclear, the heat pump gives me the best economy, but not by much, wood and coal are close and if I gather "free" wood, well free is best.  I can't find any pellets on my property after a wind storm, I do find wood.


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## UpStateNY (May 4, 2008)

Here is a handy calculator.   With today's prices its looks  to me that a Wood Pelllet boiler or stove could cut my heating bill of $3000 in half.   That is not a bad savings.  Plus burring wood pellets leaves a significantly less carbon foot print on the planet earth.

http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm


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## ugenetoo (May 4, 2008)

i stole this from another forum but it seems appropriate.

old proverb;
white man build big fire. stand waaay back
indian build tiny fire. sit close


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## mjbrown (May 4, 2008)

price of K-1 in maine this winter... nearly 4.00 per gallon

  to fill my 275 gal oil drum 3 times...$3300.00

 if price of pellets went $300.00 per ton , and i burn 4 ton...$1120.00

roughly $2000 savings for me next winter and didnt have to handle fire wood six times.

that is a no-brainer for me. i will buy my pellets throughout the summer and tell the oil company where to put there oil.i have a full drum now and that should last me the next 5-6 years...i will only use it for backup in my k-1 heaters if needed.


mike


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## Jerry_NJ (May 4, 2008)

mjb,

Just for others who take your numbers without any thought, I assume you already know.

275gal x 3 x 0.139 MBTU = 115 MBTU
4Tons x 17MBTU = 68 MBTU

And this assumes the same burn efficiency, whatever it is, for Oil and Pellets.  I'll be a new oil furnace is slightly more efficient.

So while you're saving $$ you're also enjoying at least 47MBTU less of warmth/heat in your home.  Folks, the message is the big (if any) savings come only if you practice the Indian proverb:  "indian build tiny fire. sit close".

To get 115 MBTUs for Pellets (100% efficiency) you'd need 115/17 = 6.75 Tons of pellets, still a savings, just not as big as some would want to believe.


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## MoeB (May 4, 2008)

"Pellet stove envy" is a new psychological condition that is sweeping the country.  Symptoms are varied, but one major symptom is hanging out in pellet burner message boards without owning or using a pellet stove. 

I know this only because I used to suffer from it.  I still do to varying degrees even though I have two Harman Accentras.  Whenever I see other people's stove installs, I have to resist the urge to buy another one.


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## Jerry_NJ (May 4, 2008)

So much the better for my open minded input, I have indeed removed an old wood insert that worked well and own a coal airtight in my basement.  I am now preparing to spend a few Thousand dollars on a new insert and a economic study (not self justification) of various fuels is in order:  wood, coal, pellets, corn.  I've just about decided to buy either Quadrafire 3100-I or 4100-I (upwards of $5,000 installed) for wood.  There's no pellet envy here, just the facts, and here's another fact in favor of pellets (corn I assume) and coal.  These are sold as measured by a "certified" scale, you get what you pay for.  With delivered wood you get what the local guys want you to think a cord is, around here it is usually no more that 80% of a cord....consider that too when doing your economic study using 20+ MBTU per cord of hard wood.

My reading and commenting on this forum is driven by a need for a decision, not as a justification for a decision made.  The reading has confirmed my earlier economic study comparing wood/pellets (forget corn, our cattlemen can't get enough)...and the threat of a pellet shortage is another factor that leads me back to wood.  I still have the coal stove, it can also burn wood.  My conclusion, yet to be executed, is buy an new wood insert and one that will run without electricity, albeit at lower output.

My contributions here are just part of my unbiased economic study, and has in my case nothing to do with the cost of oil, but reading I am compelled to warn others who read here mystery economics that show they'll pay off their pellet (or wood for that matter) hardware investment in a few years...when in fact it will take a lot longer, ten years may be closer and then only if the economics don't shift.


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## mjbrown (May 4, 2008)

Jerry_NJ said:
			
		

> mjb,
> 
> Just for others who take your numbers without any thought, I assume you already know.
> 
> ...



jerry, i am not trying to be a jerk here , but it seems as though you are down on the pellet stove scene.i may be getting LESS btu's from my pellet stove, but they are CONSTANT btu's. when my furnace stops running, the temp drops, and the furnce comes back on, thus burning more oil. when i start my pellet stove with the t-stat set at 70, the stove runs and the temp stay constant(plus or minus 3-4 degrees). that being said, i would rather pour another bag of pellets in the hopper and keep the stove going 24-7 at 5.00 per bag, than call the oil company, to have them come fill my oil barrel AGAIN at 4.00 per gallon. my math may stink, but when it comes to my wallet, you can bet i am pretty good at the figures. sorry if i sound like a jerk...definately NOT trying to start  trouble .   also, if i misunderstood your post i apologize.


mike


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## MoeB (May 4, 2008)

I also suffer from coal stove envy and wood stove envy.  My latest affliction is Rinnai heater and tankless water heater envy.  At some point, I will need a 12-step group to deal with these so as not to over-spend on heating appliances.  

Moe


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## Jerry_NJ (May 4, 2008)

Mike,

I am not "against" pellets, it was (is) on my possible list of upgrades for my 20 year old wood insert in my living room.  I especially like the clean and true weight bags of pellets when I pass them at Walmart.  The firewood sellers/delivers are on my most untrusted list, and that's the only I buy most of my fire wood...I'm looking into buying "ends" (I think its called) from a local lumber mill(s).  I have a small pickup truck, Chevy Colorado that gets a little over 20 mpg, so I can drive a few miles round trip to pick up wood that'll need splitting.  All this points very positively toward a pellet stove decision....that is in fact the reason I'm looking into the pellet forum threads.  

I for one turn the furnace (Geo HP in my case) way back whenever I have a fire in the (past) wood insert in the living room, and I keep the furnace off for hours, as many as I'm willing to stoke the wood in (a new insert will have a much better controlled burn rate and longer burn rate, wood or pellet) the old insert.  And yes, the house is cold back behind the laundry/study room that's behind the kitchen, and the upstairs bedrooms are cool, but the living room is toasty warm, the way we like it for some reading and watching tv.... so I'm saving money and enjoying more warmth in the room I'm in/using.

My comments here, and elsewhere, is driven at least in part out of a concern that someone who can't afford the new several thousand dollars of debt, if they have the cash on hand, it's not for me to worry about them, unless they save enough in heating cost to make the payments, and especially if they are planning to use the savings to also eat better.  I say the economics are not as strong as some share.


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## Turbozcs2003 (May 4, 2008)

Tinman said:
			
		

> I installed a Harman p68 3 years ago I locked in my propane based on what I used the year before and I just finished using in 3 years what I would use in just the winter my house is just under 2400 sqft and I was nice and toasty warm I burn 5 tons a year. I have been in the heating bus. for 20 years and my pellet and coal customers call me all the time to tell me how much they saved screw the arabs this year I am doing some solar hot water!!



Interesting thread.

I am looking into a pellet stove.  I have all my oil bills goin back 5 yrs to determine consumption and used a loss calculator to determine needed BTU for the conditioned space.

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm

It works pretty close for my home, about 650 gallons per season. 2100 sq ft, well insulated. I am in the middle of sealing the attic better around some recessed cans and looking for any wiring penetrations etc. Plus I added another 6 1/2 ". I am also going to seal the bottom plate better. House was built in 1999 and a I have a lot of glass too.  there is a lot of opportunity to eliminate losses from air infiltration and lossed thru windows if one wnats to spend some money.

One thing I was unsure is the efficiency of my boiler(Peerless with Becket gun) is listed as 85%, energy star. However what are the losses in the baseboard FHW??  SO I would think if a pellet stove is 80% efficient,  80% of the BTU go into the conditioned space but if a boiler is 85% combustion efficiency and the FHW has 20% loss(in pipes, walls etc) your overall efficiency is only 68%. So if you get 130K BTU you only get 88.4K BTU in the conditioned space? 

Has anyone on here actually done the #'s of gallons, not changed anything and then installed the stove and run it for a season or two and determined what the # of gallons compared to the amount of pellets used??


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## Jerry_NJ (May 4, 2008)

Moe, I'm with you.  Shopping for a new insert makes me wish it was closer to Winter time, in spite of the heating costs, which are higher that cooling costs for me in central NJ.  I like stoves/fireplaces, there's something "natural" about sitting near a (controlled) fire to keep warm.  I like not burning oil too, I have a real problem with our dependence on foreign oil, especially that supplies by governments that hate the USA. 

I think concern about heat lost in the heating ducts and basement are over estimated in your thinking TurboZ, but you are doing everything right.  Heat "lost" in the basement goes somewhere, some through the foundation walls, and lost, and some through the ceiling (US floor), and isn't lost.  I need to keep the basement above freezing anyway because of all the water pipes...and I use it for a shop and a VERY informal office (desk/computer/files).  I even add heat to the basement at times, but not last year, the airtight stove in the basement was disconnected and the flue closed off...this was mostly because of some old fire odor problems which are being discussed on other threads.


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## mjbrown (May 4, 2008)

Jerry_NJ said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> I am not "against" pellets, it was (is) on my possible list of upgrades for my 20 year old wood insert in my living room.  I especially like the clean and true weight bags of pellets when I pass them at Walmart.  The firewood sellers/delivers are on my most untrusted list, and that's the only I buy most of my fire wood...I'm looking into buying "ends" (I think its called) from a local lumber mill(s).  I have a small pickup truck, Chevy Colorado that gets a little over 20 mpg, so I can drive a few miles round trip to pick up wood that'll need splitting.  All this points very positively toward a pellet stove decision....that is in fact the reason I'm looking into the pellet forum threads.
> 
> ...




jerry,
my misunderstanding and also my apologies.to me my pellet stove is worth its weight in gold. it has taken a few years for me to get to the point where i could afford one , and made a grave mistake with th first one i bought. but, when i bought my harmon, i fell insantly in love with it asdid the rest of my family.so much that my parent who were against them have just bought one. no i say to heck with the arabs...keep their oil , i will only use what i need to( gas to get back and forth to work).


mike


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## StoveMiser (May 4, 2008)

Facts...

I heat 1800 square feet in western NY

5 year oil average is 900 gallons 

Paid 1800 bucks for stove and pipe

Started burning pellets mid January

This was a colder than average year 

I burned 5 tons of pellets that cost me 996 bucks 

Cut oil to 440 gallons @ 3.53 a gallon

I saved 605 bucks this year starting in January. Should save close to 1000 next year. Depending on how high oil goes the stove may pay for itself in under two years. The home feels much warmer too.


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## Wet1 (May 13, 2008)

TboneMan said:
			
		

> You need to be careful with your calculations.  If you are using that much fuel, you'll need more pellets.
> 
> It makes more sense to figure your total BTU requirements.
> 
> ...



Looking over my historical records, this formula appears to be pretty accurate.


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## MainePellethead (May 14, 2008)

Pellet versus Fuel Oil is a no brainer...

if someone wants to think that oil is for them then open your wallet...

I saved a ton this winter with pellets(no pun intended). And I plan to save even more next winter


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## Jerry_NJ (May 14, 2008)

Souther Maine, hum is that the warm part of the state :question: 

The further north one goes the more one can save by reducing heating cost :cheese:


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## MCPO (May 14, 2008)

The key factor with pellets vs oil is the constant heat output with pellets.
 Not nearly the same BTU`s but constant output that makes keeping a house warm easier than reheating it at intervals.
 John


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## MainePellethead (May 14, 2008)

Jerry_NJ said:
			
		

> Souther Maine, hum is that the warm part of the state :question:
> 
> The further north one goes the more one can save by reducing heating cost :cheese:



lol...warm?  not as cold as  upstate where i was born.....but if 10 degrees and cooler is warm then  I guess it is the warmer part of the state yeah


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## Jerry_NJ (May 14, 2008)

I'm not sure about the advantage of constant heat as easier than reheating with a cycling (central) unit.  It is clear to me that constant warmth in a part of the houuse one spend the most quite time in (other than bedroom and sleeping) lets me get by with fewer consumed BTUs, that is I can use less energy by using my insert, but it is cooler in distant parts of the house than it would be with central heating in control.  I do leave the central heating circulation fan on all the time the insert is being used. That helps a little in distribution of heat, if you have such a feature on your central, that is a plus.... my circulation fan on the central unit operates in low speed, nice for the low noise, but of course it doesn't move a lot of air.


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## ugenetoo (May 14, 2008)

Jerry_NJ said:
			
		

> Souther Maine, hum is that the warm part of the state :question:
> 
> The further north one goes the more one can save by reducing heating cost :cheese:



thats really northern mass!! maine doesnt start till you are at least up to waterville.


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## MainePellethead (May 14, 2008)

ugenetoo said:
			
		

> Jerry_NJ said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol u got a point.  But....theres more to southern maine than Portland and OOB.  Theres a huge amount of land left inland towards fryburg, cornish etc etc.


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## Ken45 (May 14, 2008)

Giovanni said:
			
		

> The key factor with pellets vs oil is the constant heat output with pellets.
> Not nearly the same BTU`s but constant output that makes keeping a house warm easier than reheating it at intervals.
> John



I don't know.  In colder weather, I was uncomfortable sitting five feet away from the pellet stove (temp set on 74).  I think it caused drafts, shipping the heated air out of the room near the ceiling, letting the cooler air come back in near the floor.  Sitting down on the couch, I get the "benefit" of the cooler air, not the warmer air.

Perhaps our house is "too open" so that we don't get the benefit of the localized heat.

Ken


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## webbie (May 14, 2008)

When all other logic fails, coming up with some superstition has alway worked!

Heat is Heat - a BTU is a BTU, etc. etc. etc.

And while ANY fuel that maintains your house within one degree at all times might feel more comfortable than one that swings 4 or 5 degrees, the end result is the same number of BTU's used to keep the house at the same average temp. 

I thought we got over the "nukecler" pellets stuff years ago. Now repeat after me:

Pellets are just wood
Pellets are just wood
A BTU is a BTU
A BTU is a BTU

Hey, at $4.00 and up a gallon, not much excuse needs to be made - Pellets will be substantially cheaper if you have a stove with high efficiency.


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## Ken45 (May 15, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> When all other logic fails, coming up with some superstition has alway worked!
> 
> Heat is Heat - a BTU is a BTU, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> ...



I agree, you hit the nail on the head EXCEPT for efficiency.  I think some of the newer gas/propane furnaces can be signficantly more efficient and, of course, unvented gas fireplaces are definitely more efficient.   But probably not enough to make up for the fuel price differences.  




> Hey, at $4.00 and up a gallon, not much excuse needs to be made - Pellets will be substantially cheaper if you have a stove with high efficiency.



And cord wood probably even cheaper to heat with and less vunerable to supply and demand pricing issues (some locations excepted), especially if one can cut their own wood.

Ken


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## ugenetoo (May 15, 2008)

if you are going to stay warm for a reasonable price, you should be ready to burn anything.
thats my motto!


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