# Geo thermal



## Midalake (Dec 14, 2010)

There does not seem to be too much talk about geo here. So I am building new and my only main heat source options are Propane and Geo. Thus I need to give Geo a Very hard look. The only way it can be installed is closed loop in a lake. Can anyone tell me what is working for them? Any other sites to go to for go info? What are good brands to go with? This whole mechanical thing for the house is a little overwhelming.

Dave


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## Dune (Dec 14, 2010)

Bit off topic, but have you researched passive solar with geothermal backup? If I were building a new house it would certainly be oriented around passive solar.


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## CALJREICH (Dec 14, 2010)

My system is closed loop in the ground. I have a 4 ton Climate Master Tranquility 2 stage. I really like the geothermal. No outside units everything in house. Great for cooling in the summer and the heat in the winter. You probably know about the tax credit for geothermal. RESIDENTIAL RENEWABLE ENERGY TAX CREDITS
Consumers who install solar energy systems (including solar water heating and solar electric systems), small wind systems, geothermal heat pumps, and residential fuel cell and microturbine systems can receive a 30% tax credit for systems placed in service before December 31, 2016; the previous tax credit cap no longer applies.


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## semipro (Dec 14, 2010)

Midalake said:
			
		

> There does not seem to be too much talk about geo here. So I am building new and my only main heat source options are Propane and Geo. Thus I need to give Geo a Very hard look. The only way it can be installed is closed loop in a lake. Can anyone tell me what is working for them? Any other sites to go to for go info? What are good brands to go with? This whole mechanical thing for the house is a little overwhelming.
> 
> Dave



Just curious, why is the lake your only heat source/sink option?  Can't you use trenches or wells? 

We have a "standing column" geo system.  Its basically a 500 ft. deep well, the same we use for drinking water. Its open-loop and uses the same pump that delivers drinking water although it's sized larger for the geo system.  Its been in use for 25 years with the only maintenance being a new well pump in that time.  

There's nothing wrong with using a lake for your heat source as long as its large (volume) and deep enough.  Its probably the cheapest option if you have the available thermal mass in the lake.  Coils of poly tubing are weighted down and dropped to the bottom.  You have to do a nice job with where the lines enter and exit the lake to prevent freezing and need to protect against boat anchors.


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## Midalake (Dec 14, 2010)

The reason the lake install is the only option is I already have an existing well and house here. I am building in front of where I am now on the lake. I have heard it maybe the cheapest option and one of the best.......due to house position and forested landscape solar is not an option either. The lake is 35 acres in size and 20ft at the deepest point. I own the lake.

Dave


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## Highbeam (Dec 14, 2010)

Maybe I misunderstood but you said, " my only main heat source options are Propane and Geo". That's total bunk, drive around and look at your neighbors, surely some heat with oil, electric resistance, heat pumps, etc. 

Then you said,  "the only way it can be installed is closed loop in a lake". That's also false. Trenches or wells are far more typical for geothermal installations. I have seen these wells placed in city lots. 

You'll need to start talking to your local professionals about this stuff. You have many options.


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## semipro (Dec 14, 2010)

Midalake said:
			
		

> The reason the lake install is the only option is I already have an existing well and house here. I am building in front of where I am now on the lake. I have heard it maybe the cheapest option and one of the best.......due to house position and forested landscape solar is not an option either. The lake is 35 acres in size and 20ft at the deepest point. I own the lake.
> 
> Dave



Sounds like the lake as far as a heat source/sink is the way to go; and a great setup in general for a home. Geothermal should be a great option for you.  We have a Florida Heat Pump unit which has been very dependable but I"m not sure what they're like today.  Waterfurnace has a great reputation as do many others. 

This a good geothermal HP site frequented by some knowledgeable folks that you may want to check out. 
http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/afv/topicsview/aff/13/Default.aspx

One further thought, since you already have propane in place, possibly having already invested in a tank and plumbing, consider installing a hybrid HVAC system using geothermal for primary and propane for auxiliary heat.  It can be useful if the geothermal system is down or if you need to warm the place up fast or have unusually high loading.  You could also use electric resistance for auxiliary if its cheaper per unit heat than propane. 

Have fun with it.  I know I would.  I'd love to have a lake like yours.


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## basswidow (Dec 14, 2010)

Our neighbors have Geothermal and love it.  Their pipes run deep into the ground and keep the house around 67-70 year round.  Occasionally they will use a space heater in the bedroom.  

If I was building - I would consider geothermal,  but I also really like my wood heat.

I am confused about the lake.  You are in Michigan?  I would imagine that lake bottom is cold even in the summer months.  How does one gleen heat from a lake?

I guess I need to read up on that.


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## Midalake (Dec 14, 2010)

Thanks for the responses so far. I am glad you have a good working Flordia Heat Pump. I know one of my quotes will be using this company, though they do not seem to be highly rated. Yes I will have back ups in case of failure. I do plan on propane for back-up on a millivolt system and I will have a wood burning unit that will heat the whole house if nessary. Keep whats working for you comung and any websites on Geo.

Dave 


quote author="Semipro" date="1292371353"]





			
				Midalake said:
			
		

> The reason the lake install is the only option is I already have an existing well and house here. I am building in front of where I am now on the lake. I have heard it maybe the cheapest option and one of the best.......due to house position and forested landscape solar is not an option either. The lake is 35 acres in size and 20ft at the deepest point. I own the lake.
> 
> Dave



Sounds like the lake as far as a heat source/sink is the way to go; and a great setup in general for a home. Geothermal should be a great option for you.  We have a Florida Heat Pump unit which has been very dependable but I"m not sure what they're like today.  Waterfurnace has a great reputation as do many others. 

This a good geothermal HP site frequented by some knowledgeable folks that you may want to check out. 
http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/afv/topicsview/aff/13/Default.aspx

One further thought, since you already have propane in place, possibly having already invested in a tank and plumbing, consider installing a hybrid HVAC system using geothermal for primary and propane for auxiliary heat.  It can be useful if the geothermal system is down or if you need to warm the place up fast or have unusually high loading.  You could also use electric resistance for auxiliary if its cheaper per unit heat than propane. 

Have fun with it.  I know I would.  I'd love to have a lake like yours.[/quote]


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## dvand (Dec 15, 2010)

Before making any choices, especially if you haven't built, you should do a heat loss calculation. If you do that you can evaluate whether your better off adding insulation or investing in the heating system.


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## mbcijim (Dec 15, 2010)

I have a 5 ton and 2 ton Climate Master unit.  I like it.  Closed loop in trenches.

My only negative comment, I have a leak in one of my 7 trenches.  So far it is very small.  If I want to fix it?  I need to dig up the manifold underneath the sidewalk built out of pavers, pressure test each line, then dig and replace the line.  So put your manifold somewhere you can easily get at it, or put it in a concrete box!


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## CALJREICH (Dec 15, 2010)

My system's manifold is in my basement if by manifold you mean all the connections from the closed loop pipe. The guy that installed it said he would not put any connections underground. So if you are going to put a loop in your lake just calculate the length of pipe you will need to make it all the way from your lake to the unit.


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## SolarAndWood (Dec 15, 2010)

Aside from cooling and set a thermostat convenience, how does a geothermal investment compare with a wood boiler?  The quote I got a few years ago for geothermal was 40K with me doing the excavation work.


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## CALJREICH (Dec 15, 2010)

16K 3 years ago.


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## Midalake (Dec 15, 2010)

I can not imagine having a manifold anywhere other than in the mechanical room. But I need to get more info on this topic, there are too many ways to get to the same conclusion.

Dave





			
				mbcijim said:
			
		

> I have a 5 ton and 2 ton Climate Master unit.  I like it.  Closed loop in trenches.
> 
> My only negative comment, I have a leak in one of my 7 trenches.  So far it is very small.  If I want to fix it?  I need to dig up the manifold underneath the sidewalk built out of pavers, pressure test each line, then dig and replace the line.  So put your manifold somewhere you can easily get at it, or put it in a concrete box!


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## midwestcoast (Dec 15, 2010)

Obviously we don't have the whole back-story here, but I get the feeling you are focussed on goethermal without exploring more options.  If you are looking to heat maily with wood and use geothermal as a back-up my thought is that is a very expensive back-up. Return on investment depends on how much you actually use the system. If wood is available (& solar is not) I'd also look into a high-efficiency wood boiler radiant floor system with propane backup.  Not discouraging geothermal, just looking out for your bottom line.


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## CALJREICH (Dec 15, 2010)

midwestcoast said:
			
		

> Obviously we don't have the whole back-story here, but I get the feeling you are focussed on goethermal without exploring more options.  If you are looking to heat maily with wood and use geothermal as a back-up my thought is that is a very expensive back-up. Return on investment depends on how much you actually use the system. If wood is available (& solar is not) I'd also look into a high-efficiency wood boiler radiant floor system with propane backup.  Not discouraging geothermal, just looking out for your bottom line.



I think he said he will have propane and a wood stove for backup. I think that would indicate using geothermal as his primary heat source. He is not looking to heat mainly with wood. He is looking for input/information on geothermal. OK
You know knowledge/first hand experience on geothermal systems. He is not looking for "well I don't know if you would get your money out and that would be an expensive back up or any other like responses"
Just thought I'd throw that out there for ya.


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## btuser (Dec 15, 2010)

There's plenty on this site about geothermal, but first and foremost this place is about wood.

Check your electric rates and see what the KW/hr rate would be.  I know a couple people here in NH that regrett the geothermal decision because our rate is $.14/hr or more.  Personally I would consider even a 20yr break even payback as a good decision, simply because I'm making about .002 in my savings account.  

With a pond that size you should have no problem with a loop.  How far from your house is the lake?


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## Midalake (Dec 16, 2010)

We are younger upper 40's and we come and go and are on the go so I do not consider a wood boiler an anchor type heating system and no matter where it is located you will be eating smoke at some point. Plus this will be a full log home, and I do not want to be cleaning ash waste off of my logs. Nat gas is not a option so electric and propane are the options, and yes on the cold days I will supplment with wood. I think there are many that do not understand just how long and how cold the UP winters are. Last night for example they said a low of 4 it was -15 when I woke up. Tonight the forcast was for 9 it is already 2. This happens here in the winter all the time. I am leaning for Geo because even with the small place I have now Propane at $2.85 two years ago almost put me in the poor house. As for other factors, my electric here is not too bad here but I do not have the rate in front of me I know we got an increase. I will be building approx. 100 feet from the lake. but the lake is shallow in the beginning, I may have to get out about 300 feet or so the get to the right water depth. I do not know if this complaicates things but I will find out.

Dave  




			
				btuser said:
			
		

> There's plenty on this site about geothermal, but first and foremost this place is about wood.
> 
> Check your electric rates and see what the KW/hr rate would be.  I know a couple people here in NH that regrett the geothermal decision because our rate is $.14/hr or more.  Personally I would consider even a 20yr break even payback as a good decision, simply because I'm making about .002 in my savings account.
> 
> With a pond that size you should have no problem with a loop.  How far from your house is the lake?


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## btuser (Dec 16, 2010)

the distance is important because the trench will be expensive.  100' is not too bad.  I doubt you'll have to go 300'.    5' under the surface of the ice is probably fine, but I'm not an expert.  By the time you get to a point where physical damage is not an issue the loop itself is just pex/poly pipe and not too expensive.

What kind of emitters are you planning?  Slab, Forced air, rads?


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## Midalake (Dec 16, 2010)

Well I am leaning toward radiant in basement slab and doing the first floor in a slurry mix. I just met with the floor truss people this afternoon and set the plan for that if necessary. Not sure what do for air-conditioning? Can I circulate enough water through the system in the summer to keep the two levels cold enough? We do not have that many days here where we need air.

Dave





			
				btuser said:
			
		

> the distance is important because the trench will be expensive.  100' is not too bad.  I doubt you'll have to go 300'.    5' under the surface of the ice is probably fine, but I'm not an expert.  By the time you get to a point where physical damage is not an issue the loop itself is just pex/poly pipe and not too expensive.
> 
> What kind of emitters are you planning?  Slab, Forced air, rads?


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## semipro (Dec 16, 2010)

Midalake said:
			
		

> Well I am leaning toward radiant in basement slab and doing the first floor in a slurry mix. I just met with the floor truss people this afternoon and set the plan for that if necessary. Not sure what do for air-conditioning? Can I circulate enough water through the system in the summer to keep the two levels cold enough? We do not have that many days here where we need air.
> 
> Dave
> 
> ...



My preference would be heat in the slab and forced air for AC but I could see where you setting might dictate different preferences.  I would think that cooling your slab in summer might create condensation and be a safety or water damage issue.  I hope your basement slab is, or will be, insulated if you plan to heat it.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 16, 2010)

DO you get many sunny winter days there in UP. Its amazing what a south facing passive solar room will do for you on  a sunny winter day. Had mine up over 100 in February with an outside temp of 15. I estimate i get  50%-70% or more of my heat from the solar room on a sunny winter day. Furnace dont kick on till well after midnight.


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## btuser (Dec 16, 2010)

If you dont' need AC then skip the ducting for central air.  You can't cool your house by cooling the slab ( I suppose if you had a ton of passive solar and wanted to counter act the effect in the Summer it could be possible) because you can't get rid of the moisture.  You end up with a clammy, moldy house.


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## benjamin (Dec 17, 2010)

Cal would tell me to keep my mouth shut, but on this site you get what you pay for. If you want somebody to tell you what you want to hear go listen to a politician. 

Geothermal with a lake loop sounds great to me. My first thought was that it's hard to justify geo on dollars and cents when you compare it to mild passive solar with slightly improved insulation, but then you go and mention full log construction, so forget about low heat loss. Second thought was that trenches or wells might provide a higher source temp as the lake will get cold fast, not from your heat pump, just from winter. If the lake is 40 and the well water is 55 it might not be that big of a difference, especially since you can throw a lot more pipe in the lake easier than you can add more trench and you're probably going to be looking at a bigger system.

It's awfully nice to have air conditioning here in southern WI, even if we only use it a week a year, but then the radiant slabs would be nice also, I can't help on that one. Another nice feature is a water heating system, either desuperheater, or with a water to water unit that switches between heat and hot water. Again, I can't help with the cost or payback on this, just something to consider. 

I've worked with FHP and Tetco, and haven't seen any problems with either in my limited experience.


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## CALJREICH (Dec 17, 2010)

benjamin said:
			
		

> Cal would tell me to keep my mouth shut, but on this site you get what you pay for. If you want somebody to tell you what you want to hear go listen to a politician.
> 
> Geothermal with a lake loop sounds great to me. My first thought was that it's hard to justify geo on dollars and cents when you compare it to mild passive solar with slightly improved insulation, but then you go and mention full log construction, so forget about low heat loss. Second thought was that trenches or wells might provide a higher source temp as the lake will get cold fast, not from your heat pump, just from winter. If the lake is 40 and the well water is 55 it might not be that big of a difference, especially since you can throw a lot more pipe in the lake easier than you can add more trench and you're probably going to be looking at a bigger system.
> 
> ...



I have geothermal. Why would I tell you to keep your mouth shut unless I actually thought you would? 
Do you have geothermal? Do you install geothermal?


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## benjamin (Dec 17, 2010)

I have a FHP jerry rigged on an open pump and dump system that is used for a little bit of air conditioning and a little heat.  I've installed a few others and serviced a few others.  

I don't claim to be an authority.  And I apologize for turning the green room into the ash can. For some reason "green" stirs up strong opinions. Maybe because there's a lot of smoke and mirrors and not enough reality?


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## CALJREICH (Dec 17, 2010)

You are fine in my book. Wish I knew how to install those systems.


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## Midalake (Dec 17, 2010)

I do like your thoughts keep them coming. There will not be alot of heat loss in our log home. It will be a full log home-hybrid. We will be doing the basement above the grade height so we can walk directly into the home without steps, the first log about 20" dia will start about 32 inches high we will go to 9ft for the first floor but everything after that will be conventional construction including 2x8 loft walls conventional truss and sprayed foam insulation. We are going for a tight wrap and high r-values. Whis is FHP and Tetco are these contractors?


Dave





			
				benjamin said:
			
		

> Cal would tell me to keep my mouth shut, but on this site you get what you pay for. If you want somebody to tell you what you want to hear go listen to a politician.
> 
> Geothermal with a lake loop sounds great to me. My first thought was that it's hard to justify geo on dollars and cents when you compare it to mild passive solar with slightly improved insulation, but then you go and mention full log construction, so forget about low heat loss. Second thought was that trenches or wells might provide a higher source temp as the lake will get cold fast, not from your heat pump, just from winter. If the lake is 40 and the well water is 55 it might not be that big of a difference, especially since you can throw a lot more pipe in the lake easier than you can add more trench and you're probably going to be looking at a bigger system.
> 
> ...


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## CALJREICH (Dec 17, 2010)

Tetco  and FHP are brand names.


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## btuser (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm curious about the lake temp during the Winter.  I was at a farm about a month ago and the home was heated/cooled by geothermal.  I asked where his ground loop was and he pointed to a 50' diameter pond that I thought was for his beef herd, but he told me that's where his loops are.  I didn't get into depth/construction but was surprised how tiny it was.  Some things I've learned/heard while researching for my own house.

Electric is not as cheap as you'd think (maybe for your, but not for us @ .14KW/h.  If your'e going to air-condition in the Summer, then great because you've effectively cut your payback period in 1/2.  If not then 10 years is now 20 years, and if you don't need it (I don't need it for the 10 days a year) don' justify it.  
Pump and Dump setups can ruin your water supply, and mess up your drinking well. 
If your loops are not sized correctly you can freeze the ground/well.  
If your loops are too long/too much resistance you will need a bigger pump, and will be wasting electricity.
Water temperature:  There is a limit to what you can get.  This differential is the biggest problem with geothermal, and in essence you will plan your whole house around it.  130F is about the max you're going to get, but that doesn't tell the whole story, because its more of a differential than a max temp.  If you've got a 50F ground loop and its 30 degrees outside you'll heat your house fine, but as it gets colder you will be pulling more heat from the ground, in effect cooling your ground loop.  Soon you'll find that its -10 degrees outside and your ground loop is now 20F.  You're heat pump has a max differential, and can't heat higher than that.  If your loop temp goes below your design temp you're screwed, or its time for supplemental heat.

You've got 2 things that I don't.  A pond and new construction.  If I were building new I would definately do geothermal.


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## semipro (Dec 17, 2010)

benjamin said:
			
		

> Cal would tell me to keep my mouth shut, but on this site you get what you pay for. If you want somebody to tell you what you want to hear go listen to a politician.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Good point on the domestic water heating in the summer using the desuperheater.  I wish my GHP system was equipped with one.


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## benjamin (Dec 17, 2010)

FHP is Florida Heat Pump except they dropped the Florida reference for credibility in the north. Basically any high efficiency unit will have similar components made by the same third parties, the heat exchangers, expansion valves, controls and copeland scroll compressors are just assembled by whichever manufacturer. 

This is the exact unit and seller that I got several from. Not a bad deal considering it includes the desuperheater, little bronze taco pump for hot water, and a big grundfos for the ground loop. 
http://cgi.ebay.com/FHP-MANUFACTURI...022460?pt=Air_Conditioner&hash=item1c178a473c

Just in case any DYIers are interested. Unlike split systems, all of the refrigerant is contained inside of the unit, there are only water lines to hook up, and 20 amp 220 electricity. The hardest part is hooking up the thermostat. 

The OP seems the perfect candidate for pump and dump water to water heated slabs. The system should be set up to make hot water directly, not with a desuperheater that only makes hot water on the two air conditioning days. With good insulation, slab heat and well water supply you might end up pumping from 50 to 80 degrees, just about as low as you're going to get. 

Tetco makes a direct water cooled coil for air conditioning. They don't work the greatest, but for the few days that it's needed anybody could rig something similar up from an old A-coil, ten feet of duct and a small blower.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 19, 2010)

Since Geo-thermal is so expensive to install i would think a case may be made for an elaborate solar system ,of which the Fuel is FREE. With ELectric rates rising,  you can get both heat and electricity from a solar system. Another factor is additional insulation which can have a big payback per dollar spent. Personally after addressing insulation levels it hard to beat solar and wood for cost of fuel and heat, if you are able. If you can not deal with the labor involved with wood then you can make a better case for Geo.IMO


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## CALJREICH (Dec 19, 2010)

I know a guy that looked into solar. He would be totaly off grid. No electric bills at all. The total cost for it $100,000. He can get 30% back form the government but it would still cost $70,000.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2010)

CALJREICH said:
			
		

> I know a guy that looked into solar. He would be totaly off grid. No electric bills at all. The total cost for it $100,000. He can get 30% back form the government but it would still cost $70,000.



He must live in the White house. Most likely the lions share of this system was for electricity and not heat.I think getting your Heat from solar is far more efficient than trying to get your electric power, cost wise. I get easily 60 % of my heat on a sunny winter day, for a $600 investment which includes 6 large (overstock auction) windows i used to close in a 24' porch on the south side of my house.  My central heat does not run from about 9am till midnight as long as its a sunny day no matter the outside temp.So after midnight till 9AM the next day is when i need to burn fuel for the other 40%.   I could improve this performance simply by finishing insulating this 100 year old house. Although this is on the very low end of the average solar investment it does show whats possible. The very first winter i saved about $800-1000 worth of oil. Nice payback.


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## Dune (Dec 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> CALJREICH said:
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Passive solar heating is definitely the low hanging fruit. For certain installations solar electric can be competitive with utility electric, depending upon the distance from the road to the house. In other cases very high electric rates/usage may make a solar electric installation not only feasible but profitable. When one throws an electric vehicle in the mix, the payback/self sufficiency could be a great investment. Additionaly, every time the rates go up in the future, the payback date gets sooner. Considering the long life span of photo-voltaic panels, I would love to be installing a big system. When I am busy in the blacksmith shop, $400 a month is not unusual. Even without running welding machines, airc ompressors, etc, my electric bill is arround $300/month.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2010)

My electric Bill is about $80 a month For a 3000SF home, 2 fridges and a freezer going, 4 computers 55"Lcd tv,seems cheap to me even though its about 13C a Kwh.  So its not a big concern right now, but would love to have an electric pickup truck.


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## CALJREICH (Dec 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> CALJREICH said:
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I was just stating an estimate a guy I know got for solar system that would provide all heating and electric for his home.I thought it was crazy expensive too, but I don't know why anyone would think to compare that system with 6 big windows installed on an enclosed porch facing south.
Might as well compare a lit match with the sun.


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## Hansson (Dec 20, 2010)

Geo thermal is very big over here.Everyone is getting it.
It`s like a big hype!

My neighbor has drilled two holes 200meter deep for the heatpump.

70% of all new building have a heatpump.

Pellets an wood heat is going down.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2010)

CALJREICH said:
			
		

> trump said:
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To put it in simple terms, you dont need to spend $100,000 to get a substantial part of your heating needs from solar.


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## semipro (Dec 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> ...I think getting your Heat from solar is far more efficient than trying to get your electric power, cost wise. I get easily 60 % of my heat on a sunny winter day, for a $600 investment which includes 6 large (overstock auction) windows i used to close in a 24' porch on the south side of my house.  My central heat does not run from about 9am till midnight as long as its a sunny day no matter the outside temp.So after midnight till 9AM the next day is when i need to burn fuel for the other 40%.   I could improve this performance simply by finishing insulating this 100 year old house. Although this is on the very low end of the average solar investment it does show whats possible. The very first winter i saved about $800-1000 worth of oil. Nice payback.



We're off the original topic now but I think you make a good point and one pertinent to this discussion...

Many people make the mistake of assuming that capturing solar energy requires complicated and expensive equipment.  Also, the most cost-effective way to make use of solar energy is to make use of it as delivered; as light and heat.  

Though it has its place, conversion of sunlight to electricity increases cost and complexity.

I'm convinced, though not certain, that most of the electricity that we buy at our house goes to producing heat, whether for domestic hot water or HVAC (geothermal).  I look forward to the day when we can harness the sun to accomplish both these tasks at our house.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> trump said:
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Put me down as CERTAIN that most of the electricity we buy is used to produce heat.(that is if you have electric heat whether its a heat pump or electric resistance heating)The 2 largest would be Home heat,water heat. Both of which can and are harnessing the sun in an ever growing # of homes. Im also convinced that in some homes money spent on solar solutions and insulation is more cost effective dollar for dollar than geo-thermal.


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## CALJREICH (Dec 20, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> CALJREICH said:
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I never said you need to spend anything. I was just stating an estimate an acquatance got for solar that would provide all his electric and heat , OK. Now here I go putting it in simple terms , I don't care if you live in a tent and heat with freshly slaughtered animals , I was just conveying a price a guy got from an outfit that installs solar system.


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## Midalake (Dec 20, 2010)

Getting back on track a little. I had a first sit down with my local Waterfurnace dealer last Friday. I was not impressed and he has not installed a Geo system yet. My Brother who works for a large mechanical firm out of Milwaukee, he's been asking his peers about Geo. His last request to me this morning was DON'T DO IT. ALL of the feed back he gets is GEO works much better as a cooling unit than a heating unit. He was told by one of his good friends that no matter how good the unit was installed and no matter what type of field it had that when the tempature drops below 25 degrees the Geo would need some type of assist to get it at a comfortable tempature in the house for[2300sqft] comfort. So my question, does anyone HERE or does anyone know anyone with a GEO system that does not meet some type of the statement above. Does anyone know of a person that has a unit  installed that heats at all times without assist?  I have people that are leaders in the industry wispering "stay away" Is Geo just another item that does not deliver???? ALL of the post so far leads me to beleive there are issues.  Please anyone in cold climates Mane, North Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan.   

Dave



			
				Hansson said:
			
		

> Geo thermal is very big over here.Everyone is getting it.
> It`s like a big hype!
> 
> My neighbor has drilled two holes 200meter deep for the heatpump.
> ...


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2010)

Cal
I never said you need to spend anything. I was just stating an estimate an acquatance got for solar that would provide all his electric and heat , OK. Now here I go putting it in simple terms , I donâ€™t care if you live in a tent and heat with freshly slaughtered animals , I was just conveying a price a guy got from an outfit that installs solar system. 

====================
You gave an example of the extreme high cost solar system and i gave an example at the low end, so i dont see the problem.  Same with Geo-Thermal If you do all the work yourself and just buy the hardware you can put together a system for a small fraction of most estimates. Same with wood stoves ,i hear estimates for installation thats 3-4 times the price of the stove.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2010)

Midalake said:
			
		

> Getting back on track a little. I had a first sit down with my local Waterfurnace dealer last Friday. I was not impressed and he has not installed a Geo system yet. My Brother who works for a large mechanical firm out of Milwaukee, he's been asking his peers about Geo. His last request to me this morning was DON'T DO IT. ALL of the feed back he gets is GEO works much better as a cooling unit than a heating unit. He was told by one of his good friends that no matter how good the unit was installed and no matter what type of field it had that when the tempature drops below 25 degrees the Geo would need some type of assist to get it at a comfortable tempature in the house for[2300sqft] comfort. So my question, does anyone HERE or does anyone know anyone with a GEO system that does not meet some type of the statement above. Does anyone know of a person that has a unit  installed that heats at all times without assist?  I have people that are leaders in the industry wispering "stay away" Is Geo just another item that does not deliver???? ALL of the post so far leads me to beleive there are issues.  Please anyone in cold climates Mane, North Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan.
> 
> Dave
> 
> ...



I was under the impression that if the system is properly sized you would never need any kind of backup heat. Cal J Reich stated in an earlier post that his system does not need backup.
 One of my best friends has Geo and i dont think he has any type of backup. So far he likes the system although hes not sure if he will recoup the cost,but hes gettin kinda old and one of the best things about Geo is set it and forget it.


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## benjamin (Dec 20, 2010)

Your brother's friend is either wrong, or assuming this is existing drafty construction, or confusing this with air source heat pumps.  The strength of geo is the stable source temperature, well water won't fluctuate more than a few degrees.  Even the lake bottom won't get colder than whatever the thermocline temperature is, 39?  If your heat loss is less than the capacity of the heat pump it will keep up.

I have installed two open (well water) systems in Central Wisconsin that have heated flawlessly (except for thermostat failure)  for the last few winters, last winter's low temp was -30.  These two houses are a similar size to yours.  One is a new modular with 2"of foam outside and under the basement walls, the other is an old farmhouse with new windows, 2" of foam outside of basement walls and a lot of cellulose.  No passive solar or wood burner in either one.

These are both heated with the unit I linked above, a 2.5 ton/30,000 btu unit.  With a used unit and the family labor rate, the payoff on these was a few months compared to propane and oil.  Cheap AC and hot water included.  

I couldn't recomend this small of a unit because I don't have any idea what your heat loss will be, I'm a skeptic of log homes but we can fight that out some other time.  I would find someone who has done a water to water system w/ hot water who can tell you how to go about it.  I know a friend of a friend who has this system (6ton/72,000btu) on a ground loop that works great for him, he even gets a "dual fuel" electric rate.  Look up the cost calculators for electric vs propane they're pretty close to even right now (in the midwest).  Figure the COP and you'll be paying a third of the cost of propane.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 20, 2010)

benjamin said:
			
		

> Your brother's friend is either wrong, or assuming this is existing drafty construction, or confusing this with air source heat pumps.  The strength of geo is the stable source temperature, well water won't fluctuate more than a few degrees.  Even the lake bottom won't get colder than whatever the thermocline temperature is, 39?  If your heat loss is less than the capacity of the heat pump it will keep up.
> 
> I have installed two open (well water) systems in Central Wisconsin that have heated flawlessly (except for thermostat failure)  for the last few winters, last winter's low temp was -30.  These two houses are a similar size to yours.  One is a new modular with 2"of foam outside and under the basement walls, the other is an old farmhouse with new windows, 2" of foam outside of basement walls and a lot of cellulose.  No passive solar or wood burner in either one.
> 
> ...


I these house are so well insulated that they only need 30000 BTUs to heat, the size of an average hot water heater, then i would imagine you could heat them at lo cost no matter what your heating fuel source may be.NOT?


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## benjamin (Dec 20, 2010)

These units are WAY undersized so they run almost continuously for many weeks.  Not cheap heat in my book, but about 1/3 the cost of propane or fuel oil. Winter electricity rate is under 10cents a KWH here, makes a difference.


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## semipro (Dec 21, 2010)

Midalake said:
			
		

> Getting back on track a little. I had a first sit down with my local Waterfurnace dealer last Friday. I was not impressed and he has not installed a Geo system yet. My Brother who works for a large mechanical firm out of Milwaukee, he's been asking his peers about Geo. His last request to me this morning was DON'T DO IT. ALL of the feed back he gets is GEO works much better as a cooling unit than a heating unit. He was told by one of his good friends that no matter how good the unit was installed and no matter what type of field it had that when the tempature drops below 25 degrees the Geo would need some type of assist to get it at a comfortable tempature in the house for[2300sqft] comfort. So my question, does anyone HERE or does anyone know anyone with a GEO system that does not meet some type of the statement above. Does anyone know of a person that has a unit  installed that heats at all times without assist?  I have people that are leaders in the industry wispering "stay away" Is Geo just another item that does not deliver???? ALL of the post so far leads me to beleive there are issues.  Please anyone in cold climates Mane, North Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan.
> 
> Dave



I think you're getting some really bad advice.  It really sounds like the guys is talking about an air-source heat pump.  These basically stop working when temps get much below freezing.  

If a geo system is properly sized and you have a decent heat source/sink you should never need backup unless something is broken.  Our system has electrical resistance backup which is disconnected because we never need it. 

Though we try to heat with wood when we're home we have run out of wood before and our geo system has never failed to keep our house warm even when night time lows drop into the single digits.  

I think you should seek other advice before you make a decision.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 21, 2010)

Semipro said:
			
		

> Midalake said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its interesting that your main heat source is Geo_thermal and you still heat with wood. With a sizable investment on what is touted by some as the cheapest heat on the planet (Geo) Why would one try to substitute with wood? Something other than cost? Green reasons(renewable) ect?


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## semipro (Dec 21, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, for reasons of sustainability mainly, cost secondarily.   We get all our wood for free by scrounging and its renewable unlike the coal that's burned to make my electricity.  I like how quiet wood stoves are also.  Even a geothermal heat pump makes some noise with the compressors and air handler.  

Our use of wood for heat reaches beyond function as it addresses some deeper primal need that only the glow of a flame can satisfy.  

We didn't install the heat pump in our house, it came with it when we bought it 10 years ago.  If I were building a house we'd go with solar as primary heat (whether passive or active) with wood as 1st backup and electrical resistance or propane as 2nd backup.  Our need for AC in summer is pretty minimal and if it was a bigger consideration it would move Geothermal to top of that list.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 21, 2010)

Its interesting that your main heat source is Geo_thermal and you still heat with wood. With a sizable investment on what is touted by some as the cheapest heat on the planet (Geo) Why would one try to substitute with wood? Something other than cost? Green reasons(renewable) ect?
=====================
Yep, for reasons of sustainability mainly, cost secondarily.  We get all our wood for free by scrounging and its renewable unlike the coal thatâ€™s burned to make my electricity.  I like how quiet wood stoves are also.  Even a geothermal heat pump makes some noise with the compressors and air handler. 

Our use of wood for heat reaches beyond function as it addresses some deeper primal need that only the glow of a flame can satisfy. 

We didnâ€™t install the heat pump in our house, it came with it when we bought it 10 years ago.  If I were building a house weâ€™d go with solar as primary heat (whether passive or active) with wood as 1st backup and electrical resistance or propane as 2nd backup.  Our need for AC in summer is pretty minimal and if it was a bigger consideration it would move Geothermal to top of that list. (Quote)

I know just what you saying,my primary home has no wood fire just whatever project home im rehabbing and i miss the fire when im at home and not at work. Im big on solar as well, its my florida in winter room.(Passive solar room)


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## btuser (Dec 21, 2010)

I went to wood for the simple reason I had wood to burn.  Really, I had to get rid of it somehow so I mine as well heat my house with it.  

 I think wood with geothermal (radiant prefered) is the perfect setup, because its hard to "crank it up" with in-floor radiant from geothermal.  Sometimes when you get a chill, its great to light a fire.  Why not?  Plus, a wood stove + chimney isn't going to set you back more than 5k.  Most people nowadays spend that on countertops for crying out loud.


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 22, 2010)

I think the savings with Geo-THermal are sometimes skewed ,cuz some installers want you to super insulate the house first. SO how much of your saving are coming from the insulation and how much is coming from the Geo? IF a house has enough insulation you can sometimes get your heat load down to 20000 BTUs ,practically heat it with a hair dryer anyway. At that point ALL heating methods become Lo-Cost. So the idea of sinking BIG bucks into Geo at that point has to be RE-calculated for payback time and cost effectiveness. IMO.


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## CALJREICH (Dec 22, 2010)

trump said:
			
		

> I think the savings with Geo-THermal are sometimes skewed ,cuz some installers want you to super insulate the house first. SO how much of your saving are coming from the insulation and how much is coming from the Geo? IF a house has enough insulation you can sometimes get your heat load down to 20000 BTUs ,practically heat it with a hair dryer anyway. At that point ALL heating methods become Lo-Cost. So the idea of sinking BIG bucks into Geo at that point has to be RE-calculated for payback time and cost effectiveness. IMO.



I'm getting a hair dryer!!  LOL   One for every room


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## Seasoned Oak (Dec 22, 2010)

CALJREICH said:
			
		

> trump said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cal  Im not criticizing Geo, im a fan of it. I love the concept, and am intrigued by the tech.If you are replacing oil fired thats another +. I have friends that have it. In the right situation i would give it a shot for myself. I kind of look at it like a luxury car. Sure an economy car can get you from point A to point B same as a Rolls Royce can but its just not the same. Geo is the Rolls Royce.
Im also a fan of electric cars ,and would love to have one as well,but you can not always make a cost effective case for those as well. IF your Geo will pay for itself through coat savings (before it needs to be replaced) then you have the best of both worlds. But it is a fact that a well insulated house has a very small heat(and cooling) load  20-30TH  BTUS I have a small house that i rent out with standard insulation and a 50,000BTU boiler thats probably twice what i really need, based on how often it runs on very cold days.  THe bottom line is if you have the money,get the Rolls Royce and dont look back. 
Have a Merry Xmas


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## CALJREICH (Dec 22, 2010)

I'm liking the hair dryer , but  I hear you.  I'm not getting rid of my woodstove for a few years.


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## gtjp (Apr 12, 2012)

Veg OIL  1000 gal  ~ 1800 dollars and a mechanic to maintain
#2 OIL
4000 dollars

Regular GeoThermal, like today's nGas @ ~ 1600 but that includes Hot Water On-Demand 100% Instant

NE Ohio Gas total billing number ~ $ 11/mcf  (not the supplier posting 4-to$5/mcf in the bill
and the 6 cent electricity is totally billed like 12-13 cents

Geo T uses 9000 to 9700 KWH in typical 3400 sq ft avg insulated home that required 1000 gal oil # 2.

SINCE 1982  and still running today.


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## Ehouse (Apr 13, 2012)

I have a system designed and purchased but not yet installed that is closed pond loop.  Here are some observations:

- Everyone has a different idea of what's expensive.  As a 3/4 do it yourselfer,  I bought my system and will install it my self. the package cost about $10,000.00 and includes;  Tubing for pond loop (precharged with ethanol).  Tubing for floor loops.  Water Furnace water to water unit.   Tetco water to air unit.  Prefab manifold with pumps for floor side.  Prefab manifold with pumps for pond side.  Thermostats.  Its been on pallets for a while so total price will be somewhat higher now.  Every thing is plug and play.  Tubing hooks up like milking a cow (modern version).  Electric is plug in to standard outlet.  minimal plumbing ( expansion tank, possible tie in to supplemental heat,  mixing valves and air purge included in manifolds).

-Pond is about 1/4 acre and 12' deep in the middle with good flow.

- Design floor temp. is 81* in 4" slab floors.

- The water to water unit is sized at about 3/4 of the design heating load to operate efficiently, and the water to air unit will kick in if needed for extra heat and to provide air conditioning.

Ehouse


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## Armoured (Apr 13, 2012)

Since you asked for a comparison - a friend installed geotherm in a very nice 4-unit building in SW Ontario. Ground loop. Heat and hot water is 90% from geotherm, with a small natural gas furnace to deal with e.g. hot water loads and in theory back-up (hot water comes first from geotherm but final temperature boost from natural gas, especially during high demand parts of day). House was very well insulated, so a big part of savings is from this. Electric bills have been low, and natural gas usage trivial (note kitchen stoves are all gas).

His summary was that it would have been a very marginal installation if not used for A/C also - and in that area, A/C is usually needed for a good part of summer. Spreading the capital cost over four (good-sized) units was also key - but for him the digging/sinking of the loops was, as I recall, the largest part of the expense.

As noted above, lake water at depth should be consistent and stable temperature year round and one geotherm unit won't be large enough to change the temperature in any way that matters, so efficiency won't be hurt as much in cold weather as with an air heat pump.

Based on this (entirely different) experience, the fact that you probably don't need A/C hurts the economics, so it will come down to how much a lake installation costs. Geotherm might be a nice way to keep base temperature once the other low-hanging fruit has been picked, but a stove or other to supplement might come in very handy. Probably wouldn't be the cheapest way to do things, but that's not the only consideration.


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