# Replacing Englander's 25-PDVC - 2 Vacuum Switches with a Heavier Metal switch.



## Don2222 (Dec 30, 2012)

Hello

Working on an Englander 25-PDVC, the 25-PDV works the same.

Symptom:
The stove shuts down after about an hour.
Auger stops and then fire dies out.

Solution:
Since the bladder in the vacuum switch is weak and can let go after the stove heats up, I am replacing the both switches with a metal vacuum switch from Grainger.

On the Enviro I just pulled out the old vacuum switch, and set this new metal switch to the lowest WC about 17 and plug the hose onto the Top (low) negative pressure port and connected the wires to the common and NO - Normally open terminals and bingo - all set

The Englander stoves are unique,So I am trying to get this hookup straight. LOL

Is this correct?

OEM Englander Vac sw1
Door vacuum switch on the left side looking in from the back of the stove.
Wire Clips to:
Terminal 1 = Common and Terminal 2 = NO - Normally Open
Hose plugs on to:
Bottom P2 or Negative Pressure Port

*This is what confused me. LOL*
*On Englander vacuum switches, the P1 Top Port is the Positive pressure port*

OEM Englander Vac sw2
Exhaust vacuum switch on the right side looking in from the back of the stove.
Wire Clips to:
Terminal 1 = Common and Terminal 2 = NO - Normally Open
Hose plugs on to:
Bottom P2 or the Negative Pressure Port

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Replacement Cleveland Controls Metal Vacuum Switch. RFS-4150
Wire Clips to terminals 1 & 2 reading #s from Left to Right:
Terminal 1 = Common and Terminal 2 = NO - Normally Open
Hose plugs on to:
Top P1 (Marked Low) Negative pressure port

Stove fixing issue:
My dilemma is that I replaced the exhaust vac switch with the new one.
Same problem
Then put back the orig vac switch and
Replace the door vac switch with the new one. Same problem but stove died in 15 mins instead of an hour.
I put the door switch on the meter and if I tilted the switch it would change state. Certainly seems like a bad door vacuum switch!
The exhaust switch tested good on the meter but still could be intermittent!

*Could both vacuum switches be bad? Is that like having 2 flat tires at once?*

Stove is a 2004 MFD

The heat sensor looks fine and I checked the connections to the control panel.
The convection blower seems strong and is not sluggish!

Well, I replaced both vacuum switches and stove shuts down after 30 mins not 15 mins now?

Is it the heat sensor or the control board or both?


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## smwilliamson (Dec 30, 2012)

Doesn't sound like a vac switch issue... Sounds like a weak auger motor issue


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 30, 2012)

Don2222 said:


> I put the door switch on the meter and if I tilted the switch it would change state. Certainly seems like a bad door vacuum switch!


Are you sure there isn't a crack in the vacuum hose. It sounds like flexing it is causing the fault.
As for your original question, there is a pictorial diagram on the ESW web site.


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## heat seeker (Dec 30, 2012)

Or marginal vacuum, and the slight weight of the diaphragm makes and breaks the switch.


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## Don2222 (Dec 30, 2012)

smwilliamson said:


> Doesn't sound like a vac switch issue... Sounds like a weak auger motor issue


 
Hi Scott

That is interesting, but would weak auger motor(s) really feed the fire pot well all thru the start up cycle?


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## Don2222 (Dec 30, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Or marginal vacuum, and the slight weight of the diaphragm makes and breaks the switch.


 
Yes but what would cause the marginal vacuum?


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## heat seeker (Dec 30, 2012)

You know - leaks, slow combustion fan, venting, etc.
I admit it's a long shot...


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 30, 2012)

Don2222 said:


> That is interesting, but would weak auger motor(s) really feed the fire pot well all thru the start up cycle?


The augers have plenty of time to load up the fire pot before it ignites. If one of the augers is sluggish because of gummy bearings it will not keep up with demand once the fire is going and the fire will eventually go out.


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## Don2222 (Dec 30, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> Are you sure there isn't a crack in the vacuum hose. It sounds like flexing it is causing the fault.
> As for your original question, there is a pictorial diagram on the ESW web site.


 
I checked the hoses, they are pliable and look real good.


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## Don2222 (Dec 30, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> You know - leaks, slow combustion fan, venting, etc.
> I admit it's a long shot...


 
Yes, The 1st thing done was give the stove a good cleaning. Before the cleaning the venting was really clogged. The combustion blower was replaced within the last year or so. Even so I cleaned and lubed it. Then tested with the test cord and it was good. Tested the convection blower and that is good also.

The strange part is that the bottom auger stops just after the convection blower turns on. That means the stove has warmed up to 120 degrees.

The stove starts, then S U is seen on the control panel. Then the control panel numbers go to sleep and do not show unless you press a button like normal. Then the convection blower starts running. A minute or so after that, the bottom auger stops and the stove dies out.

The door vacuum switch stops the top auger. If the exhaust vacuum switch did not work then the stove would die right after startup at approx 15 mins.

This is a tough one!

*I checked the heat sensor connection to the board. UnPlugged and plugged back in. This may still be suspect. Although if the heat sensor did not successfully report proof of fire, at what time from pressing start would the stove die?*

*Maybe if I rebuild my 25-PDVC quick I can unplug the heat sensor and try it. In the meantime can someone else try it for me?*


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## Don2222 (Dec 30, 2012)

Harvey Schneider said:


> The augers have plenty of time to load up the fire pot before it ignites. If one of the augers is sluggish because of gummy bearings it will not keep up with demand once the fire is going and the fire will eventually go out.


 
Yes, but the bottom auger does not slow down, all of a sudden it just stops!


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## heat seeker (Dec 30, 2012)

Have you checked the wiring going to the control board? Bad connections, mis-wired, loose connectors?


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## Don2222 (Dec 30, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Have you checked the wiring going to the control board? Bad connections, mis-wired, loose connectors?


 
I checked the heat sensor wire but the others should be checked. It is a 2004, that is 8 years old so anything goes. Thanks


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## rich2500 (Dec 31, 2012)

our cat chewed my heat sensor wire and the stove would go through start up then into burn mode for 15 mins. then shutdown.My stove used to do the same thing as the one your working on uniess I would unplug it every time before startup, as long as I killed power to it before starting it would run fine, I used it like that for 2 yrs. and just a few weeks ago replaced the control board now it is fine.have you tried cleaning the nipple the vaccum hose goes on at the combustion blower,(although that should throw a code)


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## Don2222 (Dec 31, 2012)

rich2500 said:


> our cat chewed my heat sensor wire and the stove would go through start up then into burn mode for 15 mins. then shutdown.My stove used to do the same thing as the one your working on unless I would unplug it every time before startup, as long as I killed power to it before starting it would run fine, I used it like that for 2 yrs. and just a few weeks ago replaced the control board now it is fine.have you tried cleaning the nipple the vacuum hose goes on at the combustion blower,(although that should throw a code)


 
Great info, that is exactly what this stove is doing. It goes thru startup and then burns for 15 mins and then shuts down with NO Error code! The vac hoses and ports check out fine.

What do you mean kill power before starting it? What are your exact steps?


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## rich2500 (Dec 31, 2012)

Don2222 said:


> Great info, that is exactly what this stove is doing. It goes thru startup and then burns for 15 mins and then shuts down with NO Error code! The vac hoses and ports check out fine.
> 
> What do you mean kill power before starting it? What are your exact steps?


 
before starting everytime I would flip the switch off on the surge protector thus killing all power to the stove,If I would not do this my stove would startup, run for 30 mins. then shutdown with no codes,new control board solved the problem.I doubt that it would help you though since you have already been working on the stove and I'm sure you have unplugged the power each time.


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## Don2222 (Dec 31, 2012)

rich2500 said:


> before starting everytime I would flip the switch off on the surge protector thus killing all power to the stove,If I would not do this my stove would startup, run for 30 mins. then shutdown with no codes,new control board solved the problem.I doubt that it would help you though since you have already been working on the stove and I'm sure you have unplugged the power each time.


 
Yes, I agree. When it died after 30 mins, the stove was unplugged prior to starting. It may not help this stove because it is a 2004 and there are differences from year to year in the control panel programming according to Bianco at England Stove Works. If yours was made in 08/04 I will check the month this was made. Back then there could be differences from month to month even.


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## rich2500 (Dec 31, 2012)

Don2222 said:


> Yes, I agree. When it died after 30 mins, the stove was unplugged prior to starting. It may not help this stove because it is a 2004 and there are differences from year to year in the control panel programming according to Bianco at England Stove Works. If yours was made in 08/04 I will check the month this was made. Back then there could be differences from month to month even.


 

another thing to try would be to switch the upper and lower augers with each other,this would determine if it's the lower auger motor .


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## Don2222 (Dec 31, 2012)

rich2500 said:


> another thing to try would be to switch the upper and lower augers with each other,this would determine if it's the lower auger motor .


 
If it was the auger motor, then it would not die at the same time every time?


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## TLHinCanada (Dec 31, 2012)

You can check the vacuum switches by jumping them.  The bottom auger stops only when stove shuts down.  When in shut down cycle top auger stops bottom runs.  Could be auger motor kicking out due to heat.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Dec 31, 2012)

How hot was that bottom auger motor Don?


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 31, 2012)

if the BOTTOM auger is stopping its NOT a vac switch issue , there are no iunterrupts in the lower auger , so if its stopping its the motor in most cases, especially if it gets very hot


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## Harvey Schneider (Dec 31, 2012)

When a motor runs hot, the resistance of the copper coil windings increases. The increased resistance reduces the current in the motor which results in reduced available torque. With less torque the motor can stall and stop abruptly. All of this leads me to believe that the auger motor might have some extra drag or load on it. Check the auger bearing and the auger itself for binding or drag.


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## Don2222 (Dec 31, 2012)

heat seeker said:


> Have you checked the wiring going to the control board? Bad connections, mis-wired, loose connectors?


 
My neighbor said that if the phillips head screw at the end of the heat sensor that holds it to the fire wall is loose, then that will cause this problem!


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## stoveguy2esw (Dec 31, 2012)

Don2222 said:


> If it was the auger motor, then it would not die at the same time every time?


 

actually it very well could, if the motor gets too hot it will kick out as said above , if encountering the same resistance each time the motor would generally take the same amount of time (roughly) to reach the temp it kicks out at


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## kenstogie (Dec 31, 2012)

suscrbd. ............as  i do for every 25pdvc thread so when it happens to my stove i might be better prepared.    good luck and keep us posted.


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## Don2222 (Jan 1, 2013)

Hello

Well it looks like it could either be the heat sensor or the lower auger motor at this point. So since this is a 2004 stove and does have diagnostics then this heat sensor test should give the info to help here.

Here is the KEY instruction!
*So if the blower speed reads 9 then the heat sensor is NOT reading the temperature. (According to Mike since the diagnostics info below does not say that.)* 

If it read a number that changes like 4 or 5 then it is reading the temperature properly.

http://www.englanderstoves.com/help/PelletStove/diagnostic_mode04.html


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## Don2222 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi Mike

Well I finally heard back that my brand new auger motor to replace the lower auger motor fixed the problem!

Thanks everyone for all your help. The stove and venting is nice and clean now and it should be all set!

That was a tricky one. I do not just like to replace parts until the stove is fixed, that makes it a little harder. Thanks again!


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## stoveguy2esw (Jan 4, 2013)

good deal,

i was thinking the lower motor was th eissue on this one


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