# Nissan Leaf v. ski hill



## Cynnergy (Oct 1, 2014)

The ski hill won apparently .  Just heard about two town planners from the next town over who have a Nissan Leaf as a pool car at their work, and they got stranded at the local ski hill (elevation 1590m, just under a mile high) when the battery couldn't quite get them there for a site visit.

The story goes that they had to get it towed down, but I don't know why they didn't just turn it downhill and brake all the way down to recharge the battery.  I heard it third-hand so I might not have the whole story straight, but I thought it was amusing.  

Note to self: Distance remaining on battery indicator does not include _vertical_ distance.


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## Ashful (Oct 1, 2014)

Cynnergy said:


> I don't know why they didn't just turn it downhill and brake all the way down to recharge the battery.


You said they're your town planners.  It might be time to think about moving.


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## Cynnergy (Oct 2, 2014)

Lol they're the town planners from the next town over.  DH is one of the town planners for our town.  I think he would have figured it out, but sometimes he surprises me .  He has new appreciation for the 'dignity-mobile' pool car that he has to drive which is emblazoned with swirly town logos and positive sustainability messaging trumpeting how green the town is - a plug-in Prius which includes a gas engine.


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## woodgeek (Oct 2, 2014)

Sounds fishy.  There are plenty of stories to the contrary about the LEAFs mountain climbing ability.

Here's my theory.  A lot of leaf owners (like ICE car owners) don't think or care about how their car works.  The leaf has a 'miles range remaining' display on the dash.  I often find going downgrade, my range remaining doesn't drop at all (because I'm coasting basically), but then of course, I eat 2 miles off the range for every mile I go uphill on the return leg.  On a steep hill, I suppose it could be more like 3:1 going uphill.

So, if they knew it was a 10 mile trip (to an odo), and had 25 miles on the display, they might (foolishly) think they could get there, but would die halfway up the mountain, but of course in that case as you said, they could regen going down the mountain.

Still seems some idiocy was involved....I don't know any leaf owners that would tackle a 1 mi topo change with a 1/4 charged battery.


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## Ashful (Oct 2, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Still seems some idiocy was involved....I don't know any leaf owners that would tackle a 1 mi topo change with a 1/4 charged battery.


Well, these aren't leaf owners... they're city employees who may not be fans of the leaf, and this could have been a stubborn demonstration of why the city needs to buy them some other vehicle.

Now focusing on your last statement, I suspect there are two very distinct types of leaf owners, the geeks and the posers:


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## Cynnergy (Oct 2, 2014)

I will say that even though I would love to have a Leaf myself, a plug-in Prius does make a lot more sense to have as a city pool car.

It's kind of like telling someone who's used to burning a smoke dragon that he now has to work a cat stove every once in a while - some people are interested in learning new things, others...


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## woodgeek (Oct 2, 2014)

Toyota seems to be ditching the plug-in prius, sales are collapsing.  The Volt would be a better option....but everyone is waiting for the updated, gen 2 Volt, to be announced in January.


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## Cynnergy (Oct 2, 2014)

What's wrong with the plug-in Prius?  Not enough electric range?


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## 8ball (Oct 2, 2014)

Get a tesla


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## Ashful (Oct 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> Get a tesla


Slightly different price range, no?


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## woodgeek (Oct 2, 2014)

Cynnergy said:


> What's wrong with the plug-in Prius?  Not enough electric range?



Very limited electric range, and can't go highway speeds on electric alone.  A mini-sales surge a few month ago was just to get HOV lane access stickers in CA.  Not a big seller otherwise.


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## Cynnergy (Oct 2, 2014)

8ball said:


> Get a tesla


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## 8ball (Oct 3, 2014)

Joful said:


> Slightly different price range, no?


Ya for sure  don't know what the Leaf sells for and don't know what the full charge range is either but the Tesla is probably 3x the price it does 0/60 in 4.2 seconds 265 mile range world's best aerodynamics ,world's safest car,
Worth it to me


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## woodgeek (Oct 3, 2014)

8ball said:


> Ya for sure  don't know what the Leaf sells for and don't know what the full charge range is either but the Tesla is probably 3x the price it does 0/60 in 4.2 seconds 265 mile range world's best aerodynamics ,world's safest car,
> Worth it to me



I worked out that the acceleration of my leaf from 0-30 mph was 85% that of the Model S.  Can't seat 7, but I can seat 5 and a bunch of gear. Good enough for me at 1/3rd the cost. 

You gonna pick up an S yourself?


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## 8ball (Oct 3, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> I worked out that the acceleration of my leaf from 0-30 mph was 85% that of the Model S.  Can't seat 7, but I can seat 5 and a bunch of gear. Good enough for me at 1/3rd the cost.
> 
> You gonna pick up an S yourself?


I hear ya ,and you've got one good job
I'm only dreaming about a Model S


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## begreen (Oct 3, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> Very limited electric range, and can't go highway speeds on electric alone.  A mini-sales surge a few month ago was just to get HOV lane access stickers in CA.  Not a big seller otherwise.


As a car, the Volt just works and admirably so.


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## woodgeek (Oct 4, 2014)

begreen said:


> As a car, the Volt just works and admirably so.



Yar.  GM also just announced that in addition to the Gen 2 Volt, they will manufacture a battery EV (BEV) car, based on the Sonic model, with a long range (150-200 mi) battery.  It will compete directly with the Leaf Gen 2 and lower cost Tesla Model 3.

BEVs are gonna get a LOT more interesting in 2016.

In contrast, Toyota has decided and publicly stated that the entire EV space is a loser, and plans to leap-frog the whole EV market into H2 fuel cell cars in the future.   Good luck with that.


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## CaptSpiff (Oct 5, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> BEVs are gonna get a LOT more interesting in 2016.


Looking forward to that! Really really want a BEV, but I'm a tall guy and hoping there will be some mid-size entries in the near future.



> In contrast, Toyota has decided and publicly stated that the entire EV space is a loser, and plans to leap-frog the whole EV market into H2 fuel cell cars in the future.


I can't remember a time in Toyota corporate past where they have openly decided to "take the dark forest path". I wonder what they see that the entire rest of the industry doesn't?


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## woodgeek (Oct 5, 2014)

CaptSpiff said:


> Looking forward to that! Really really want a BEV, but I'm a tall guy and hoping there will be some mid-size entries in the near future.



FYI, I'm 6'1" and find the leaf at least as roomy as a mid-size sedan.  Some people seem to think its a 'compact', but it is actually quite tall (like the Nissan 'Juke'), and I think I have several inches of head space.  My kids like the back seats b/c they are higher than the front (there's battery underneath).

Kia is releasing a Soul BEV which is little bigger and slightly longer range than Leaf Gen 1, and Mitsu has an Outlander PHEV CUV that is still rare in the US, but v popular overseas.



CaptSpiff said:


> I can't remember a time in Toyota corporate past where they have openly decided to "take the dark forest path". I wonder what they see that the entire rest of the industry doesn't?



My guess...they've sunk beaucoup bucks into Hydrogen Fuel Cells, and mgmt does not want to admit an error....so they are doubling down instead.  But what do I know??


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## Grisu (Oct 6, 2014)

woodgeek said:


> In contrast, Toyota has decided and publicly stated that the entire EV space is a loser, and plans to leap-frog the whole EV market into H2 fuel cell cars in the future.   Good luck with that.



Let's see. I still have my doubts for long-range EV cars or a 0.5 t pick-up that runs on batteries. Not to mention cargo trucks or heavy machinery. Once H2 can be generated efficiently it's long range perspective looks much better. Maybe this here is just the ticket: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/345/6204/1593


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## woodgeek (Oct 6, 2014)

I always hate to say some technology is not possible....history is replete with folks that say certain things were impossible.

Another issue is cost effectiveness.....

Right now automotive Li-ion battery packs are running ~$300/kWh, 10 years ago the figure was closer to $1000/kWh.  The materials are all earth abundant, and so can be had more cheaply if mined in greater volume.  A significant faction of the current cost is assembly, which is amenable to economies of scale and automation.  The analyses I have read has said that at ~$100-$150/kWh, lifetime cost of ownership for a BEV becomes less than any ICE drivetrain or hybrid, with no subsidies.  Many folks think we will hit that point ~2020.  With a quickcharger network in place, long-haul drives are no problem (current Leaf, Tesla, etc quickchargers run at 2.5C, 0-80% in 20 minutes, in other apps, Li-ion batteries can be charged at 4C, 0-80% in 12 minutes).  With large cheap batteries, horsepower for heavy equipment is not a problem.

There are a handful of H2 fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) on the road in California. The current cost of fossil-derived H2 is higher per BTU than gasoline, and the cost of the vehicles is astronomical.  Right now you can electrolyse water at the industrial scale using electricity at ~80% thermodynamic efficiency, but it isn't done because the nat gas stuff is cheaper.  I like Graetzel, he's brilliant, but I could do better with Si PV and electrolysis than his 12% eff cells with unknown lifetime.  So, I am not yet seeing the cheap RE H2 that you are seeing, even if the FCVs were cheap.


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