# Has anybody tried this new style led bulb?



## velvetfoot (Jul 25, 2017)

I had to replace two led bulbs that intermittently stop working.  I found these in HD.  About $2.50 each.  I put in 4.  They look good and are very light, compared to the replaced bulbs.  I wonder if the few electronics will make them more reliable?


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## woodgeek (Jul 25, 2017)

I am a big fan of those so-called 'Filament LED' bulbs.  The emitters are cooled by filling the bulb with Helium gas (which is excellent conductor).  Because the He is (obviously) transparent, tis amounts to a clear heat sink, and higher luminous efficiency....many are 100-110 lum/W, versus the 85-90 of 'conventional' LEDs.

I think they will take over, and the Chines apparently agree....they are making them by the boatload in every form factor, some with frosting on the glass.  I have bought many shapes and sizes from amazon, all Chinese made, and had zero problems (over a couple years).

One limitation....the heat rejection is ultimately limited by the (Standard) glass bulb size...and this seems to limit the wattage to <9W, so max 900-1000 lumens.

I thought of them as good bulbs for @Ashful, but apparently he is very choosey about CRI: likes it to be 0.99+


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## velvetfoot (Jul 25, 2017)

They are very light in weight.  Maybe it's the helium.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 25, 2017)

I haven't tried them but have been tempted.  I think they would look very cool in outdoor applications like lamp post lights.


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## woodgeek (Jul 25, 2017)

Of course they are also made in 'retro' Edison bulb shapes....and show up in trendy restaurants, often dimmed to a low level.

I am certain that 98% of folks that see them think they are incandescent.

I also got an outdoor string of 12 1W small filament bulbs for exterior illumination.  Very nice ambiance, cheap and 100 lum/W (the listing is incorrect at 50 lum/W).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LEJG67Q/?tag=hearthamazon-20


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## iamlucky13 (Jul 25, 2017)

They're not dimmable, and I don't know if they might have some faint flicker that some people are sensitive to, but their simplicity lends itself to very good efficiency.

By the way, the new Philips 7W bulbs (the lowest power 60W equivalent I've seen) that just showed up at Home Depot appear to be a filament bulb, even though it's frosted. Very low price, too. I haven't tried one yet, but I suspect it will work well in enclosed fixtures due to the low heat production.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 25, 2017)

This is the one I got.  Dimmable, haven't noticed any flicker, cheap.  I believe not for enclosed fixtures.  I like the clear blub with artsy filament and apparent simplicity.  And the price, although I haven't been checking regularly.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart...D-Light-Bulb-4-Pack-A7A19A60WESGD01/301766884

edit:  I bought some more today.


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## iamlucky13 (Jul 26, 2017)

Thanks for the link. Likewise, here's the Philips bulb. They're surprisingly similar.

Both are also the same length as standard A19 bulbs. Most A19 LED's are 1/2 inch or so longer, and so may protrude slightly from fixtures.


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## jharkin (Jul 26, 2017)

Thats interesting - where to they fit the control electronics? Miniaturized enough to cram into the plug base now?

I had thought these where just getting popular due to the retro fad - Ive seen them discussed on my old house board as options for old exposed bulb  fixtures in restored Victorians, etc.  I didn't realize the design had functional benefits.


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## iamlucky13 (Jul 26, 2017)

The electronics usually aren't that much bigger than the base already, although I know there's some with more complex drivers. Here's somebody else's tear down of one of the Slimstyle bulbs, for example. I've taken apart a dead Feit from Costco and found a similar sized driver, so they didn't need to lose much size:
http://www.notcot.com/images/2014/02/slim0.jpg

Perhaps just as importantly, they cool the LED's differently. Most existing LED bulbs use a metal core circuit board to transfer heat from the LED's to the metal case. The size of metal case is dictated by the cooling needs more than it is the electronics inside.

These "filament style" bulbs use a larger number of smaller LED's such that each can be cooled by the air (or whatever gas they use) inside the bulb. The air naturally circulates to move heat to the outside of the bulb, and then there is enough glass area to keep the whole bulb at a reasonable operating temperature even though glass doesn't conduct heat nearly as well as aluminum. I think I read somewhere they pressurize the bulb to increase the effectiveness of circulating heat to the glass. I suspect Woodgeek is right, however, that their total power level is limited to not much more than these consume. They'd probably have to increase the physical bulb size to go beyond a 75 Watt equivalent, although most 100 W equivalent LED's with metal cases are larger than the standard A19 size anyways.

Also, every improvement they can make in power consumption of the bulb reduces the cooling requirements of the bulbs.


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## begreen (Jul 26, 2017)

Wondering how this will affect global helium supplies?


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## iamlucky13 (Jul 26, 2017)

begreen said:


> Wondering how this will affect global helium supplies?



I find these kinds of questions interesting and often do back-of-the-envelop calcs to get a rough idea.

Google says 2.5 billion light bulbs are made per year (not sure if that's current, or back when most of the world was using bulbs that only last 1000 hours). A standard bulb is 2.5 inches in diameter, and surely the neck increases the total volume less than 1.5x compared to a simple sphere. That means the volume is roughly 12 cubic inches, or 5000 bulbs per cubic meter. So at 1 atmosphere, making all our bulbs this way would take 500,000 cubic meters of helium per year.

Global production of helium is about 175 million cubic meters (not counting what isn't captured, since only the natural gas fields with the richest levels of helium bother extracting it).

That means it would be an 0.3% increase in helium demand. If the bulbs are pressurized, multiply that by whatever the pressure is in atmospheres.


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## jharkin (Jul 26, 2017)

So bulbs are not a big deal... Interestingly I just went and looked up what the total world helium reserves are - seems I completely misdeed a story last year that they found a new field in Africa adding another 6 or 7 years to the previously estimated 20 years worth remaining worldwide.

Seems there may be more of it than we thought.


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## woodgeek (Jul 26, 2017)

Great answer.   I figure the He in one kids balloon can fill all the LED bulbs in my house and cover me for 10 years.  And my kids were at 2-5 balloons/week there for several years.  

I don't think its pressurized....sometimes lower pressure improves the conductivity....I should go look it up.

And H2 would work nearly as well.


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## woodgeek (Jul 26, 2017)

A nice article with links to teardowns and nice comments:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/guest-blogs/led-filament-bulbs



And my 2 year old thread:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/if-you-miss-those-incandescent-filaments.142331/#post-1920763


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## iamlucky13 (Jul 26, 2017)

jharkin said:


> So bulbs are not a big deal... Interestingly I just went and looked up what the total world helium reserves are - seems I completely misdeed a story last year that they found a new field in Africa adding another 6 or 7 years to the previously estimated 20 years worth remaining worldwide.
> 
> Seems there may be more of it than we thought.



Reserves are generally estimated based on what is currently economical. If we actually started to run out of helium from the current gas fields, so the price went up, we'd just stop throwing so much of it away from the overwhelming majority of natural gas fields where the helium is not captured, because it would become profitable to capture it from more fields.


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## jharkin (Jul 27, 2017)

The cool thing is these bulbs make the old L-prize bulbs from 5 years ago look quaint now.  In retrospect I should not have been so quick to jump on the bandwagon... had I waited I could have converted the entire house for the (subsidized!) price I spent on 3 of those just to play around


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## Highbeam (Jul 27, 2017)

jharkin said:


> The cool thing is these bulbs make the old L-prize bulbs from 5 years ago look quaint now.  In retrospect I should not have been so quick to jump on the bandwagon... had I waited I could have converted the entire house for the (subsidized!) price I spent on 3 of those just to play around



I was thinking the same thing. Dang it, now something is better. Aesthetically better and more efficient.

Sure, only 1 less watt for the same output but that's 10%! (not exact numbers)


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## velvetfoot (Mar 8, 2019)

First failure today.  Two of the filaments stopped glowing.  Remainder glowing faintly.  
Far from the 15,000 service hours promised.

PS:  Ever notice while stopped at an led stoplight how many of the leds aren't lit?
PPS:  They do help with powering the house during an outage with a 2,000 watt genny.
PPPS:  At least they're cheaper.


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## tadmaz (Mar 8, 2019)

My local Ace hardware has the occasional sale on LED bulbs, 4 for $1.  25 cents a piece.  Reliability is ok so far, the R20 shape seems to be the least reliable.


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## begreen (Mar 8, 2019)

tadmaz said:


> My local Ace hardware has the occasional sale on LED bulbs, 4 for $1.  25 cents a piece.  Reliability is ok so far, the R20 shape seems to be the least reliable.


R style bulbs are often installed base up in ceiling cans. This concentrates the heat more around the electronics which can shorten their lifespan, probably from drying out the caps.


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## maple1 (Mar 8, 2019)

begreen said:


> R style bulbs are often installed base up in ceiling cans. This concentrates the heat more around the electronics which can shorten their lifespan, probably from drying out the caps.



I'd guess 90% of bulbs get installed base up. In whatever fixture. All of ours are, that I can think of, anyway.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 9, 2019)

These clear led bulbs with the 'filaments' have been more reliable than other led bulbs I had.  Still didn't make two years of very light usage though.  They do look  good and now cost $1.34 each.  I hope it's not gonna be a trend for me with these bulbs.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmar...b-Soft-White-4-Pack-A7A19A60WESGD01/301766884


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## woodgeek (Mar 9, 2019)

As with all things, these filament LED bulbs vary by manufacturer quality and ruthless cost cutting.  I suspect that as a class there is no reason they would be less reliable than the other kind of LED bulb.  I'v been running quite a few filament LEDs the last few years, which were more expensive when I bought them...and they have held up very well.

I like the dimmable Phillips ones, that have 4 filaments that run warm white, and two that run reddish and are only activated in dimming....giving a 'warm glow' effect.


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## Gunfixr (Mar 9, 2019)

I have some that have a spiral twisted set of "filaments", a retro Edison bulb. They are inna chandelier, so are base down. Haven't been using them long yet, plus not in a location to get used all the time.
Off white, semi yellow light, good cool factor. Not cheap like discussed here, $7 a bulb.


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## kborndale (Mar 11, 2019)

velvetfoot said:


> First failure today.  Two of the filaments stopped glowing.  Remainder glowing faintly.
> Far from the 15,000 service hours promised.
> 
> PS:  Ever notice while stopped at an led stoplight how many of the leds aren't lit?
> ...




15000 hours is very a low life span, most led bulbs are rated at 50000 hours.  15000 is what CFL's are typically rated at.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 13, 2019)

Seems they do have reliable 100 watt equiv bulbs now,iv only had 1 go bad since buying about 15. Would like to start using 150-200 watt equiv bulbs for work lights but still too many bad reviews on those.


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## Corey (Mar 14, 2019)

I have several of the 'long filament' style in use and they seem to work fine.  A few observations - several already stated:

The electronics are so small because the 'filament' is actually dozens, if not hundreds of LEDs in series, so the overall voltage the filament needs is 120V.  So no step down package is needed.

Not sure how I feel about dozens/hundreds of LEDs in series...if one dies, does the whole filament die? - though I have not had that happen in several years of use.

I seriously doubt there is helium inside.  It would make no sense to go to the cost / expense of adding helium inside when the bulb is surrounded by air outside.  Air inside and air outside is essentially the same thermal conductivity.

Due to having no real electronics, there is some notable 60Hz flicker - though I think I am more sensitive to this than some.  I particularly notice it when trying to read or do detail work in the light of one.  Though these are really more decorative - not reading or work lamps.

They are 'sort of' dimmable.  Again, with no real electronics, cutting voltage to the LED does result in less light.  A couple of issues - lowering voltage to a LED typically makes the light more blue / cool (just the opposite of an incandescent bulb which gets more orange / warmer)  So these take on an odd hue when dimmed - and flicker can become even more noticeable.

The one issue I've had - one bulb was delivered with the spot weld to one filament broken loose from the end support.  Not really noticeable, but I'd inspect that portion closely.


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## Gunfixr (Mar 14, 2019)

Well, in my case, the downsides just aren't. The only long filament led bulbs i'm using are in a chandelier, in the dining room. It only gets used occasionally, and only enough light to eat by is needed, it's as much ambiance as illumination.
Which was why they were chosen.
For me, they work for the purpose.


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## Seasoned Oak (Mar 14, 2019)

Its nice that LEDs are easily made to look like antique bulbs.


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## velvetfoot (Mar 15, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Its nice that LEDs are easily made to look like antique bulbs.


Yeah, but the second one went out yesterday!  Maybe same batch.  Same location, bathroom, but it really doesn't get that moist in there.


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## begreen (Mar 15, 2019)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Its nice that LEDs are easily made to look like antique bulbs.


What I like the most is that LED bulbs have progressed greatly from the early engineering oddities with big heat sinks and odd workarounds to diffuse illumination, often with a cathode cold light. Now they are in almost any form factor and work nicely as incandescent replacements.


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## Ashful (Mar 15, 2019)

woodgeek said:


> I am a big fan of those so-called 'Filament LED' bulbs.  The emitters are cooled by filling the bulb with Helium gas (which is excellent conductor).  Because the He is (obviously) transparent, tis amounts to a clear heat sink, and higher luminous efficiency....many are 100-110 lum/W, versus the 85-90 of 'conventional' LEDs.
> 
> I think they will take over, and the Chines apparently agree....they are making them by the boatload in every form factor, some with frosting on the glass.  I have bought many shapes and sizes from amazon, all Chinese made, and had zero problems (over a couple years).
> 
> ...



Just saw this.  I actually bought three filament type LEDs for one of my three my lamp posts, to give them a whirl.  They still don’t quite match the warmth and spectrum of incandescent, but they are damn good.  The only issue I have had with them is that my lamp post fixtures tend to fog up inside, or even frost up in winter, without the warmth of the incandescent to bake it out.  Not yet determined if I’ll go with them in the other lamp posts, or switch back, giving myself some time to decide.


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## Brian26 (Mar 15, 2019)

At work we retrofitted about 10 large 20k+ sqft retail box stores over to all led lighting in just about every form. The bulb failure rate is insanely low. Out of thousands of led tubes I have seen less than 10 fail over a few year period. Perhaps the commercial stuff is more robust but these bulbs have saved a fortune in both energy and eliminated the labor/money in bulb maintenance.


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## Gunfixr (Mar 15, 2019)

I have regular led bulbs throughout the house, only have the early style filament bulbs in 1 or 2 places, specifically for ambience. They aren't used regularly, like the regular bulbs are.


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## woodgeek (Mar 16, 2019)

Corey said:


> I seriously doubt there is helium inside.  It would make no sense to go to the cost / expense of adding helium inside when the bulb is surrounded by air outside.  Air inside and air outside is essentially the same thermal conductivity.
> View attachment 242339



Dude, the gas fill is a key part of the design.  A tiny squirt of helium (or another low MW gas) at the optimal pressure (below atmospheric I think) cost nothing compared to the old heavy metal heat sinks.  A kids ballon could fill dozens of these things.

Your thinking seems to be that even if the gas in the bulb was higher thermal conductivity that air, it wouldn't help, bc it would still have to dump the heat into the air outside the bulb.  That is not correct.  The gas fill is spreading the (quite concentrated) heat in the small filaments to the large area of the bulb, and can do it quite effectively.  Just like a metal heat sink spread the heat from a small diode to a large fin.  You will notices that they spread out the filaments carefully, so they don't heat each other.

Of course, you can poke a hole in one, fire it up, and see if it continues to function for a long time.  And let us know.


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## begreen (Mar 29, 2019)

How long can a bulb last vs how long does it actually last? This is an interesting article that explores what may be the first case of planned obsolescence. Interesting to note, growing up I remember my dad's cousin had original Edison bulbs in his basement. These had the long filaments and the pointed glass tip at the end. When I saw them they had already been in service for about 60 yrs. and still glowed warmly. 
https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/dawn-of-electronics/the-great-lightbulb-conspiracy


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## Dobish (Apr 11, 2019)

does anyone have pictures of them actually installed in fixtures? we are looking for something to fit in a barn light, and I thought these would be good...


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## Ashful (Apr 11, 2019)

Dobish said:


> does anyone have pictures of them actually installed in fixtures? we are looking for something to fit in a barn light, and I thought these would be good...



I bought one two years ago, and it just looked stupid.  I think I still have it in the lightbulb cupboard, I will try to get a photo tonight.

There were two fundamental problems:

1.  They run around 2200K color temperature, and have a more narrow spectrum than a true old-timer bulb.  The light they cast is just yellow, almost approaching that of a yellow bug lamp.

2.  The filament is just cartoonishly large.  The filament on a true old-time bulb might be .030” thick, but these are more like 0.100” thick.  From a distance you might not notice, but up close they just look fake.


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## Dobish (Apr 11, 2019)

Ashful said:


> I bought one two years ago, and it just looked stupid.  I think I still have it in the lightbulb cupboard, I will try to get a photo tonight.
> 
> There were two fundamental problems:
> 
> ...


thanks!
what did you end up going with on your barn? I feel like my lights are very similar style.


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## Ashful (Apr 11, 2019)

Well, that's just a barn, located 200 feet from the house, so no one is seeing those bulbs up close.  There, it's more about having enough light to work in the driveway at night, and getting the right color temperature to make the doors and white trim look nice against the charcoal painted cedar siding.  So, no pretty bulbs, there.

I was running 29W Halogen (40W incandescent equivalent) 430 lumen G25's  for the first year or two.  But I recently switched them over to 2700K LED 40W/G25 equivalents:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00W13D1QE/?tag=hearthamazon-20

I don't really want to see a bulb when I look at a gooseneck lamp, and these tuck up inside the hood nicely, on mine.  That's all personal preference, though.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 12, 2019)

On balance, I like the soft white bulbs I originally posted about quite well.  No other failures since the last.  Four are outside.  They are motion activated.  ALL other fixtures and lamps have them, except the cans.  They look hugely better unlit than previous led bulbs I've owned.  They can be touched while running.  The price is right as well.


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## Ashful (Apr 13, 2019)

velvetfoot said:


> On balance, I like the soft white bulbs I originally posted about quite well.



What soft white bulbs?  I checked every link you posted above, and they all appear to be clear led filament bulbs.


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## velvetfoot (Apr 17, 2019)

Temperature.  Degrees Kelvin.  I didn't see a number.   Not "daylight".


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## Seasoned Oak (Apr 30, 2019)

I just replaced some dimmable halogen bulbs (50 watt) with dimmable LED bulbs(6 watt) In an over the sink light .Mostly for all the heat the halogens were radiating. Almost identical in price.  I was afraid the fixture was going to ignite. THe LEDs are barely warm.


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