# My neighbor added roof bling!



## EatenByLimestone (Jul 13, 2015)

I came home from work and noticed a bunch of panels on the roof.  He put them up friday.  They are supposed to cut his bill by 40-60%.

It'll be fun watching how it all works.


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## Lake Girl (Jul 15, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> I came home from work and noticed a bunch of panels on the roof.  He put them up friday.  They are supposed to cut his bill by 40-60%.
> 
> It'll be fun watching how it all works.



What kind of panels?  Chance of a pic?


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## velvetfoot (Jul 15, 2015)

That's the way it was with my neighbor too.  Company was NRG.  She leased.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 16, 2015)

Ď


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 16, 2015)

More details...

Leased from Vivent.

Should produce 40-60% of usage.  He uses 800-1000 kwh/mo.

Price of electricity purchased from the company will be 10.6c per kwh.


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## DougA (Jul 16, 2015)

Hmmm, looks like the panels won't get sunburned too easily with all the shade.


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## peakbagger (Jul 16, 2015)

Sure does look like they need to remove some softwoods.


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## Jeepman401 (Jul 16, 2015)

Wow...I thought I had some shading challenge's with mine spot...nothing a good chain saw can't fix with either set-up though.


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## Where2 (Jul 16, 2015)

peakbagger said:


> Sure does look like they need to remove some softwoods.



After seeing those photos, I will no longer complain about my one minor shading issue from a royal palm tree, that I knew about when I installed my system.


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## begreen (Jul 16, 2015)

For how long do they get 100% coverage with full sun, no shading?


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## DougA (Jul 16, 2015)

I think you should volunteer to help your neighbor achieve optimal power generation and feed your wood stove with his trees.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 17, 2015)

begreen said:


> For how long do they get 100% coverage with full sun, no shading?



Not long.  




DougA said:


> I think you should volunteer to help your neighbor achieve optimal power generation and feed your wood stove with his trees.



Once they are down I'll be happy to help.  There are power lines about 10 feet from those trees on my side.  I'm not confident enough in my felling abilities.


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## peakbagger (Jul 17, 2015)

If the shading is so significant, this is sign that your neighbor was ripped off. Contrary to popular belief, if there is strip of shade running from one side of the panel to the other side, the panel effectively shorts out producing little of no power. Vertical strips of shade are not as bad but there is still impact. Assuming they used microinverters, the other panels that are not shaded will still continue to put out power. If they have a central inverter then almost the whole array will be severely limited on output. There is a also a somewhat rarer system where individual optimizers at each panel limit the impact of a shaded panel on the entire array output. One rule of thumb is full sun from 9 to 4 but there are others and array orientation makes such a difference that it really requires a site check for each system.

Unfortunately the fed rebate has no performance requirements, the panels can be mounted facing north in a pine forest. I expect some unscrupulous firms are going to con homeowners into signing leases or selling marginal systems outright using the pressure of the end of the fed rebate in 2016. Very rarely does a dealer guarantee output. This was a major issue when the Solar Hot Water boom occurred 30 years ago, SHW systems were being installed in all sort of inappropriate places by high pressure dealers and many homeowners ended up with poor or non functioning systems that gave solar a bad reputation.

 Luckily in NH and many other states, the state rebate programs require that the solar fraction (it takes into the shading and orientation of the array) is determined prior to the installation. In order to get the rebate, the site needs to meet a minimum fraction. If trees are in the way they need to be removed. 

My original small array is starting to get shaded out. At some point I have to decide if I want to drop a curly maple or gain a few hours of sunlight. I think I will let the curly keep growing.


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## begreen (Jul 17, 2015)

I have a large redwood to the south of the house that causes significant mid-day shading. Bummer because the roof slope faces south. Instead of removing the tree our panels are in the field next to the house with a higher cost to wire them into the grid, but at least they are producing well. I did have taken out a large doug fir to improve solar gain at that location for both the panels and the gardens.


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## Corey (Jul 18, 2015)

Hummm... Years ago, my neighbor remarked he was shocked by his electric bill being $250 a month in the summer.  Ask what mine was and I said 'around $130/mo running my 1973 vintage AC unit'.  We were both amazed that his house (~3/4 the size of mine and a newer / late 80's vintage AC) cost so much more.  The only major difference we could figure is his house bakes in the direct summer sun all day long and mine is literally surrounded by mature shade trees.

If the trees go, the roof will still have some shading from the panels, but seems like the walls would take a lot more heat load.  Luckily the house appears fairly light in color, and possibly the cooling load isn't as big in NY as it is in the 'desert' midwest - but would still be interesting to see what it does to the overall bill.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 18, 2015)

The house was originally constructed in the mid 1800s, but was gutted and flipped maybe 7 years ago.

It should be fairly well insulated, but I'd bet money that they did a "looks good from 30 ft" job on it.

That should still keep a good amount of heat out.


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## peakbagger (Jul 18, 2015)

I have a fairly well insulated attic and I still noticed that my attic heats up slower from adding a small array on my roof.


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## jharkin (Jul 21, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> The house was originally constructed in the mid 1800s, but was gutted and flipped maybe 7 years ago.
> 
> It should be fairly well insulated, but I'd bet money that they did a "looks good from 30 ft" job on it.



I can tell you from first hand experience its _very_ hard to insulate a house of that age to modern standards without destroying ALL its historical character.  Which is why I wish the flippers would just leave old houses alone and build new ones.  But that is a rant for another day. (Based on that grainy picture the house looks like it could just as well be 1980 as 1800....  )


Back on topic... Vivint is a ripoff  outfit that goes door to door.  They wanted to put solar on my roof claiming it was a perfect southern exposure... I declined stating that
#1 its not south, more southwest.
#2 Its shaded about half the day by a couple of large Hemlocks that practically* touch* the roof. (cant you see that?)
#3 Being that the house is almost 220 years old I nether want to see the look of panels on it nor do I trust the roof framing can take the load.

(there was also my distrust of the lease scheme and knowledge im not going to be in this house long enough to make it worthwhile, but I didn't want to get into that argument)


To this the Vivint guy says, " No problem, We will put them on your garage!"


The garage is behind and shaded even worse than the house


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 21, 2015)

Salesmen can be an interesting breed.

There isn't any historical character left in the house past the first floor beams only visible in the basement.

The original center hall 1 story house had internal brick walls for thermal mass.  They were torn out in favor of drywall.


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## Lake Girl (Jul 23, 2015)

No respect for old homes   I've done my share of removing deteriorated plaster and lathe so can only imagine what removing interior brick walls would have been like.  Hopefully, engineers where consulted as that would have significantly changed load bearing capabilities.  The 1900 house the we had years back was already significantly altered when we got it.  I tried to return it to some of it's original look with the large pine baseboards and window casings.  Staining to match the remnants of the originals was interesting!

Looks like your neighbour is due to be stung with buyer beware...  Those panels will produce some but can't imagine what the payout return will look like.  Always a little leery with salesman knocking at the door.  If the story seems too good to be true, it usually is


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## peakbagger (Jul 23, 2015)

VIvent just got bought by SunEdison. Odds are Vivent's owners got rewarded for high pressure sales and marginal installations.

If folks haven't figured it out, there are major Ponzi schemes being implemented to monetize solar incentives. The players don't care what happens to the customers down the road and really don't care about their long term business model as they plan to sell the liabilities to other suckers or go bankrupt and cash out on investment credits. This happened during the solar hot water boom of the seventies and it took years for solar to recover when the credits disappeared. Its going to get worse as the end of the federal tax credit approaches.

NH just ran out of money for incentives, so I expect the companies who expanded in the state will disappear quickly.


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## EatenByLimestone (Jul 25, 2015)

Well, he's still waiting for his electrical inspection. 

I'm pretty surprised his installer doesn't have things in line to knock these out quickly.  He said they had the panels up within days... That's probably so they can apply for the rebates and the customer can't back out.


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## velvetfoot (Jul 25, 2015)

My neighbor's company was NRG and they used microinverters and routed everything outside.


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## peakbagger (Jul 25, 2015)

NRG is basically Enron reassembled


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## velvetfoot (Jul 25, 2015)

When you say, "PV powered solar hot water", does that mean you have panels powering an electric water heater?


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## peakbagger (Jul 26, 2015)

I have a PV panel that runs my 12 volt circulator pump on my SHW system. Some folks just hook the PV to a 12 volt pump with no controls, that works but has some issues in the winter and cold mornings and in the afternoon, so I have a fairly simple controller that looks at the temp at the top of the panel and only runs the pump when the top of the panel is hotter than the tank. So even with the power out I will end up with a tank of hot water but unless I want to hook a hose its not of much use. The SHW system went in before the PV so at the time it made sense. as it saved the electrical use of running a circ pump. Given the HPHW heaters are so inexpensive, I wouldn't install a SHW system and would just install a few more PV panels to run the HPHW heater  but since its installed I use it.


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 7, 2015)

I finally got to chatting with him and he's making just over 26 kwh per day.  The system must be networked as he pulled it up on his phone.   He did notice the fall off in production from the trees and they are planning to take them out.


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## Lake Girl (Aug 7, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> he's making just over 26 kwh per day



Far less than the 40% predicted ... what kind of out is in the contract if it underproduces so drastically?


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## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2015)

EatenByLimestone said:


> Should produce 40-60% of usage. He uses 800-1000 kwh/mo.


About 320-400 kwh/mo, at 40%.  26 per day x30 days/mo=780 kwh/mo.  Seems good to me.  Am I missing something?


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 7, 2015)

26 X 30 = 780

Am I figuring that wrong?  Should he be producing more now to make up for snow and low sun in winter?   If he has sunny days it looks like he will be producing almost call of the 800 he uses.  Now, I bet he will start trying to conserve and drop his usage by a couple hundred kwh.


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## velvetfoot (Aug 7, 2015)

Pretty cool.


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## Lake Girl (Aug 7, 2015)

Sorry - long day and brain is mush

Winter months means shorter days but photo cells are supposed to function more efficiently in colder temps...


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 7, 2015)

I wonder if he has incentive to cut the trees down.  He buys electricity at a discounted price.  If he produces more than he uses, does he sell that?  Or do those profits go to the company that owns the panels?  

It might pay him more to reduce consumption.


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