# Pellet stoves make huge gains and why does EU have the cool cars



## smwilliamson (Mar 26, 2013)

Link to article, hah! And I was quoted:
http://www.biomassmagazine.com/articles/8765/pellet-stoves-make-huge-gains-in-market-share


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## kinsmanstoves (Mar 27, 2013)

Pellet stoves are 80% of my business.  Very nice article. 

Eric


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## Phil Do's fire. (Mar 27, 2013)

smwilliamson said:


> Link to article, hah! And I was quoted:
> http://www.biomassmagazine.com/articles/8765/pellet-stoves-make-huge-gains-in-market-share


Good article....Thanks for sharing with us


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## Ejectr (Mar 27, 2013)

The only problem I can see with increased use of pellet stoves is my dealer hasn't run out of oil in March.


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## ScotL (Mar 27, 2013)

Nice article, the first half anyway. The last paragraph brought the accuracy of the whole article into question.
Government regulation never propelled any industry forward. In fact, just the opposite. The last half of the article seems to be complaining that there is not enough government intrusion and people are scared to buy stoves because the government isn't giving their stamp of approval. Has it really become that bad? Do we really need a nanny state to tell us what stove to buy?

Excellent quote from that guy Scott Williamson though.


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## Defiant (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks fo sharing


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## Lousyweather (Mar 27, 2013)

Ejectr said:


> The only problem I can see with increased use of pellet stoves is my dealer hasn't run out of oil in March.


 nor have they run out of pellets


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## Phil Do's fire. (Mar 28, 2013)

Ejectr said:


> The only problem I can see with increased use of pellet stoves is my dealer hasn't run out of oil in March.


Like oil, purchase a bulk amount in the spring to save money and you won't run out


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## Ejectr (Mar 28, 2013)

I didn't say I ran out......they did.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 28, 2013)

ScotL said:


> Nice article, the first half anyway. The last paragraph brought the accuracy of the whole article into question.
> Government regulation never propelled any industry forward. In fact, just the opposite. The last half of the article seems to be complaining that there is not enough government intrusion and people are scared to buy stoves because they government isn't giving their stamp of approval. Has it really become that bad? Do we really need a nanny state to tell us what stove to buy?
> 
> Excellent quote from that guy Scott Williamson though.


So very, very true!!  Government is a drag on all development from environmental perceived problems to protecting some damn snail that is better served with garlic and butter to strangling the mass production of diesel engines, which would COMPLETELY SOLVE our energy dependence.  Fire 3/4 of all fed workers and watch the economy thrive.  They would actually have to work for a living. Off to the ash can we go............


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## smwilliamson (Mar 28, 2013)

ScotL said:


> Nice article, the first half anyway. The last paragraph brought the accuracy of the whole article into question.
> Government regulation never propelled any industry forward. In fact, just the opposite. The last half of the article seems to be complaining that there is not enough government intrusion and people are scared to buy stoves because they government isn't giving their stamp of approval. Has it really become that bad? Do we really need a nanny state to tell us what stove to buy?
> 
> Excellent quote from that guy Scott Williamson though.


John is t really saying that we need more government intervention but rather saying that there should be some kind of uniform standard to measure brands. Germany has the blue angel certification for stoves which can get overt 88% efficiency using the lhv standard. Without something to shoot for we're left to manufactures dictating what it is we should ask for in a stove.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 28, 2013)

smwilliamson said:


> John is t really saying that we need more government intervention but rather saying that there should be some kind of uniform standard to measure brands. Germany has the blue angel certification for stoves which can get overt 88% efficiency using the lhv standard. Without something to shoot for we're left to manufactures dictating what it is we should ask for in a stove.


Agreed.  Having worked with German and French companies in the past, I can say that they are much more in tune with NECESSARY regulations and less with BS.  Of course, no one is perfect.  They still tax rain water and have 35 hour work weeks! But at least they can get 60+ MPG with their diesel cars going 100 mph on the Autobahn.  AND they have strict but sensible emission controls.


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## smwilliamson (Mar 29, 2013)

We don't need the Government to regulate so much but wouldn't it be nice if they added a little more incentive, if you can build something that meets x requirement we will rebate 30% of the purchase price to the consumer. That's more in line with Germany. Then we would have something clear to work towards and rally around. Having the EPA just stamp their foot down doesn't help anything but short of that, manufacturers left to their own devices, us Americans tend to shoot for the largest profit model and screw all else...then we end up with, I don't know...over sized boilers, over sized SUVS, you get the picture


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## briansol (Mar 29, 2013)

If it burned less and produced more btu, it would sell itself without any government or subsidy.


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## john193 (Mar 29, 2013)

Well not necesarilly. People don't always buy the most efficient stove today. Largely because there is a lack of standard and this translates to a lack of consumer confidence. If we all bought the most efficient thing we'd all be driving diesel hybrids...


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## briansol (Mar 29, 2013)

No.  I wouldn't.   Because I enjoy driving.  lol

There's more than just that 1 factor that goes into it.

it needs to look, perform, and be reliable, and at a price point that makes it worth while.


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## jophysx (Mar 29, 2013)

Even the lack of efficiency standards is not necessarily an argument for government regulation.  There's nothing stopping a private organization from defining these standards.  An industry consortium might have incentive to do so.  Or a consumer group like UL, or Consumer Reports.  If the customer values having an efficiency standard, someone can usually come up with a clever way to make a living providing it.  If not, then that indicates the customer really doesn't value it that much.  And it follows that the customer would rather keep their money than pay extra for the convenience/advantage of having clear standards . . . regardless of whether they pay directly, or indirectly via taxation.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 29, 2013)

john193 said:


> Well not necesarilly. People don't always buy the most efficient stove today. Largely because there is a lack of standard and this translates to a lack of consumer confidence. If we all bought the most efficient thing we'd all be driving diesel hybrids...


AMEN on the last part, for sure!


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 29, 2013)

briansol said:


> No. I wouldn't. Because I enjoy driving. lol
> 
> There's more than just that 1 factor that goes into it.
> 
> it needs to look, perform, and be reliable, and at a price point that makes it worth while.


Ah, clearly someone who has never driven a European diesel! Not your grandmom's diesel Olds by any stretch. I can say I drove an Audi A8 on the Autobahn at 300 kph! Scary? Yep! Awsome? Yep. 

AND when driven at a more sane rate of speed, I got 50 mpg!  Got 60 mpg with a MB with 4 people in it for a week.


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## briansol (Mar 29, 2013)

yeah, EU gets way cooler cars than us.  the diesel price point (per gallon, about 40 -60 cents more) on top of the surcharge (like in a truck, the deisel option is as much as 10 grand more than the gas job) makes the roi of 20mpg  come even around 100,000 miles.

I've never owned a car for 100k.


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## john193 (Mar 29, 2013)

briansol said:


> I've never owned a car for 100k.


That's the most fun part of car ownership. Nothing beats spending a sat morning working on your own car.


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## tjnamtiw (Mar 29, 2013)

It IS crazy to charge $6000 more for an engine with fewer parts and controls that is made in MASSIVE quantities in Europe.  I would gladly pay 10% more for fuel to get 50 to 75% more mileage if the engine price were comparable. Of course, the diesel will last for ever if you change oil and filters.


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## smwilliamson (Mar 30, 2013)

briansol said:


> yeah, EU gets way cooler cars than us.  the diesel price point (per gallon, about 40 -60 cents more) on top of the surcharge (like in a truck, the deisel option is as much as 10 grand more than the gas job) makes the roi of 20mpg  come even around 100,000 miles.
> 
> I've never owned a car for 100k.


I don't think I have ever owned a car with less than 100k


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## smwilliamson (Mar 30, 2013)

Jim.od3@gmail.com said:


> Even the lack of efficiency standards is not necessarily an argument for government regulation.  There's nothing stopping a private organization from defining these standards.  An industry consortium might have incentive to do so.  Or a consumer group like UL, or Consumer Reports.  If the customer values having an efficiency standard, someone can usually come up with a clever way to make a living providing it.  If not, then that indicates the customer really doesn't value it that much.  And it follows that the customer would rather keep their money than pay extra for the convenience/advantage of having clear standards . . . regardless of whether they pay directly, or indirectly via taxation.


look at energy star... What a disaster. I have never been able figure out to what measure anything rated by them benefits the consumer


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## Snowy Rivers (Mar 30, 2013)

IMHO
The only oversight needs to be the safety standards, and thats it.

Get the government out of my face.
The stove industry has done a good job with their products, other than the constant rush to add more electronics and computers to something that really does not need it.

Snowy


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## tjnamtiw (Apr 1, 2013)

smwilliamson said:


> look at energy star... What a disaster. I have never been able figure out to what measure anything rated by them benefits the consumer


I do believe I read that Energy Star is not long for this world.  I hope I'm right.

As for safety standards, Snowy, European standards have to be better than ours with the speeds they drive.    Our government, as you point out, needs to get their noses AND hands out of our pockets.


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## bill3rail (Apr 2, 2013)

tjnamtiw said:


> Ah, clearly someone who has never driven a European diesel! Not your grandmom's diesel Olds by any stretch. I can say I drove an Audi A8 on the Autobahn at 300 kph! Scary? Yep! Awsome? Yep.  AND when driven at a more sane rate of speed, I got 50 mpg! Got 60 mpg with a MB with 4 people in it for a week.


 
Why are the vehicle economy ratings in the UK twice that of the US? 
The .GOV has done NOTHING to help the automobile industry, or any other industry. 
VW 21Mpg in USA, same car and engine in the UK is 44Mpg.  Both rated in Mpg.


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## briansol (Apr 2, 2013)

The uk variants tend to have smaller engines (ie, 1.8 here, 1.3 there).


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## moey (Apr 2, 2013)

briansol said:


> The uk variants tend to have smaller engines (ie, 1.8 here, 1.3 there).


 
Diesel as well..


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## begreen (Apr 2, 2013)

john193 said:


> That's the most fun part of car ownership. Nothing beats spending a sat morning working on your own car.


 
If I had a 100K car it would be a Tesla, so that I didn't have to work on the car on Saturdays.


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## tjnamtiw (Apr 3, 2013)

briansol said:


> The uk variants tend to have smaller engines (ie, 1.8 here, 1.3 there).


Perhaps, but turbo charged and more pep than the US version, believe it or not.


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## john193 (Apr 4, 2013)

Ford has been using the same styling and features in their European cars here in the states. See the new focus and fusion, aka the mondeo in Europe. Turbo charged 1.6 and 2.0 engines.


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## smoke show (Apr 4, 2013)

GM does it too. Like the chevy cruze. I believe its a turboed 1.3L.


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## briansol (Apr 4, 2013)

That's new this (or last) year though... the uk has been doing it for 20 years.


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## tjnamtiw (Apr 4, 2013)

john193 said:


> Ford has been using the same styling and features in their European cars here in the states. See the new focus and fusion, aka the mondeo in Europe. Turbo charged 1.6 and 2.0 engines.


But NOT diesels, which is the point of our digression.  Turbo charge a little diesel and you get both great performance and great mileage.  Here a turbo charged gas engine gets relatively lousy mileage thanks to the EPA.


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## briansol (Apr 4, 2013)

I have a 2.0T genesis coupe ... I can get 30mpg out of it if I try... and do no more than 60mph.  usually around 20-23 because my foot is in it 

its not so much that the engine isn't efficient, its that the cars way so damn much these days.

an 88 civic got 45 mpg, but it weight 1900 lbs.
a 2013 civic gets 32 on a good day, and weighs like 3200.


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## Jags (Apr 4, 2013)

Fellas - since this thread hasn't been pellet stove oriented since about post #10, I think I am gonna slip it into the Inglenook section. Post on - I just think it is a better fit.


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## Pellet-King (Apr 4, 2013)

smwilliamson said:


> I don't think I have ever owned a car with less than 100k


 
100k is when they start breaking in!, for years i bough new car's, wasted 100k, now i only buy 500 dollar bomber's, why, i'm a ASE master Tech!!


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## smwilliamson (Apr 5, 2013)

Is it common practice for mods to change a title of a thread? I did not put the EU cars thing on there


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## Jags (Apr 5, 2013)

Scott, I did that. The original title didn't fit the thread drift. You guys were having meaningful conversation and thought it would bring more attention to the current discussion.


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