# Starting my "storage and replumb" project



## warno (Jun 17, 2016)

I decided to put in a storage tank and replumb everything from last year and plumb the house in the loop as well.

Here's my storage questions thread

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/help-with-storage-plumbing-2-0.154285/

And my last year's project thread

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/im-building-a-homemade-boiler.145689/

I changed my storage design alittle from my thread I'm going with 3) 250 gallon tanks stacked horizontal. They will be stood up after welding them together. Then slid into position against a wall of my garage.

Some progress pics

Location for tanks is where my ladder and jack are at now. The smaller tanks in this picture are going to be used for expansion.







Tank 1 had a nasty spot where the tag was so I cleaned it up and put a band aid over it.











Then I started lining the other tanks up.






I'm using 1/4 plate to cradle each tank to the next then on the bottom I will have 4 feet that are slightly longer then the bottom tank is wide which I will gusset the crap out of to hold the pile once up right.






And the weldage holding things together






That's where I'm at now, there will be lots more to come in the future. This is a big project that I'm getting a late start on, I feel like winter is right around the corner already.


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## DaveBP (Jun 18, 2016)

Well, it certainly looks like you have a good handle on weld quality.


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## maple1 (Jun 18, 2016)

Ditto on the welds. 

Highly recommended to pressure test & leak check before you move them into place.

Looks good so far!


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## warno (Jun 18, 2016)

Thank guys. 

Leak checks will be done for sure. Much easier to fix out in the open floor then up against the wall.

My to do list is quite large.  I still need to build 2 new water to air HX, build the manifolds in the garage and house, get more and bury thermopex to house, rebuild the boiler fire box, rewire everything to run automatically. Just to name a few things.


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## brenndatomu (Jun 19, 2016)

Decided against putting them under the house eh?


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## warno (Jun 19, 2016)

Lol yeah. I was really stubborn about it because I didn't want to give up the floor space in the garage. But I really started thinking about it and it would be so much work to put them in the crawl space. Like everyone said.


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## warno (Aug 1, 2016)

Well I finally had some time to do alittle work on this project after about 6-7 weeks. My wife has been having complications with our second pregnancy and she had a 3 week hospital stay in the midst of everything. She's home now but things are far from normal. 

The tanks are almost ready to stand up. I need to weld on 2 more ports on the top of the top tank for my expansion and pressure relief valve then it's ready. 

Feet are stainless channels I had made at work and then I welded them together and welded them on with gussets. 






I also TIG welded on my drain connection.


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## hobbyheater (Aug 3, 2016)

Really nice work!


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## warno (Aug 18, 2016)

I've had alittle more time for this project and got the boiler shed wired up. My new system will be manually automated using temp sensors and relays. 

First the we have the indicator lights and start button and fan switch. Red light indicates  "low water level" meaning nothing will run until it's filled up. Green light indicates "ok water level" meaning everything's ready to run.  Blue light indicates fan running. Push button for cycle start and switch to shut off fan if running a burn cycle. 






The main enclosure is in the bank of the boiler shed. It houses the aquastat, flue temp sensor, timer relay, and the other relays and contractor to turn things on for a burn cycle. 






With any luck I'm getting my tanks stood up this weekend. Still hoping to have everything ready to burn this winter, for the garage anyway.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 19, 2016)

hobbyheater said:


> Really nice work!


I hafta agree with hobbyheater...great work...and I think you are gonna be very happy with the results!


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## warno (Aug 19, 2016)

Thanks.

 I've been working like crazy when I have time. Between helping my wife through her pregnancy problems and our 4 yr old I've been getting up early in the morning before work to put time in. 

Turns out my tanks won't be standing this weekend, couldn't get the skid loader lined up to do the lifting. So I guess it's wiring the garage and plumbing what I can.


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## warno (Aug 23, 2016)

I started working on plumbing my tanks together before they get stood up. This morning before work I got the bottom and middle tied together.  I planned on using 2" pipes to tie the tanks together anyway turns out a 2" 90° elbow fit right in the ends almost perfect. So I just knocked a hole in each tank and welded it in. 






And welded in.


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## DaveBP (Aug 23, 2016)

How in the world did you get in there on the inside of those ells to make such a nice weld!?


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## warno (Aug 23, 2016)

Small cup on the TIG torch. Been doing it awhile helps too. Lol 

Thanks for the compliment.


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## brenndatomu (Aug 23, 2016)

Yeah, that almost qualifies as welder p o r n there 
I can lay some weld down now, but I'd hafta photoshop mine for it to look like that


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## warno (Aug 27, 2016)

Today my dad came over with the skid loader and we got the tanks stood up. It was a little of an ordeal but we got it done. There's about 3 inches from to top of the top tank to the ceiling. There's about 1.5 inches to the track for the garage door. Prefect!  Might make insulating abit difficult but it will get done. 

Some pics:


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## warno (Aug 27, 2016)

Could someone let me know if my plumbing idea will work?

 I'm thinking:

webstone fill/drain valves on each end of each loop. 

The circulators will have isolation valves on them. 

My "to load" loops will have air scoops on them that will have air return lines leading back to the expansion tank. 

Here's a drawing I threw together. Please let me know if I should add anything to it because I'm running all this in copper and would like to only do it once.


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## warno (Sep 1, 2016)

Had a vacation day today so I got alittle more work. I put on my supply header for the system and started wiring the electrical for the garage. 

I used a piece of carbon steel to weld to the propane tank then welded that to stainless steel for the header. I had a guy at work sweat some copper stubs into stainless pipe for my connections then I welded the stainless to the header. 

The connection straight up will be for the garage heat. The one 45° off will be for the house loop. The bottom connection will come from the plate HX. and a 1/4" coupler for a pressure/temp gauge. 













Alittle weldage






Garage side of electrical.


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## warno (Sep 5, 2016)

I've also replumbed the boiler shed. It's abit of a mess right now but it will be cleaned up before this winter.


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## Longstreet (Sep 6, 2016)

Have you thought about securing a metal band to the wall studs and then running it around the top tank?  Seems like easy insurance to prevent tipping, no matter how unlikely that is.

Sick welds by the way.  I dream about being that good one day...


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## warno (Sep 6, 2016)

The tank pile will be anchored to the floor by the weekend. I'll also be building a insulation wall around it the will have anchor points up top from the wall when it's all said and done. 

Thanks for the compliment.


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## brenndatomu (Sep 6, 2016)

Longstreet said:


> Sick welds by the way. I dream about being that good one day...


Yah, like I said...


brenndatomu said:


> I can lay some weld down now, but I'd hafta photoshop mine for it to look like that


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## warno (Sep 8, 2016)

My wife has a dr appointment today for the pregnancy, so I had another vacation day. I went in to work to build my return header for the storage. Again all 3" stainless except where is going into the propane tank. Tomorrow morning before work I'm going to start welding it into my tanks.


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## warno (Sep 9, 2016)

I welded up the return header today before work. I still need to add in a coupler I forgot and another support on the end but, it's on there.


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## warno (Sep 17, 2016)

Alittle bit slow going lately but a little update here. I finished my return manifold support and the coupler I forgot about. I did an air test to check tanks and welds after putting them together.  I also started piecing things together for the plumbing. I'm still waiting on a few items to show up then I'm hoping things will start going quicker.

Couple pics

Finished manifold.






Held for over 12 hours. That's good enough for me.






Tried my hand at soldering stainless to copper. Not bad for never doing it before.






And sweating in general. Again not bad for only doing it a handful of times.






And the start of the plumbing.


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## leon (Sep 18, 2016)

About your drawing, why are you using two air scoops? have you decided not to use a steel expansion tank or a pair of bladder tanks and instead use just a pair of spirovents????

I am concerned that your circulators will fail as there is no point of pressure change to allow them to work properly as they are too high.


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## warno (Sep 18, 2016)

I've all but abandoned my own drawing and I'm going with a modified version of a drawing I got from another site. The reason I have 2 air scoops is because I have 2 separate loops. One for garage and one for house.  But only the garage will be running this winter since I don't have time now to plumb the house as well. 

What do you mean my circulators are to high? The one on the picture is about 4 inches higher then where it pulls from my storage tanks. The idea of expansion I'm going with is an air bubble in the top of my storage tanks. The air released from the auto vent on top of the scoop is directed back to the air bubble in the storage tank.


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## warno (Sep 23, 2016)

I've started plumbing things up now. The area alloted for my plumbing filled up pretty quick once I got going. I ran out of elbows to finish everything up. Some pics...

The pex line hanging down will be cut up above the ceiling level and tie  into the copper.


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## warno (Sep 24, 2016)

I got some more plumbing done this morning. I will be getting more elbows this week to finish it all. The garage loop is done so I air tested my sweat fittings on that loop. After fixing a leaking threaded plug it held 60 psi for about an hour when I left the garage. I left the air charge in there, I'll check on it later tonight.












Heat exchanger pump and crap trap on storage side







I changed out my pump in the boiler shed to a higher head unit to accommodate the heat dump when it is used. Also added a crap trap to this side of the heat exchanger piping.






The boss showed up but he didn't get out of his car to inspect anything.  Phew!







Edit: just checked on the pressure and after about 6 hours it's still holding the same. I think I'm good.


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## Buzz Saw (Sep 27, 2016)

What brand insulated Pex did you use? Or is that home made foam in place? 

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## warno (Sep 27, 2016)

It's thermopex from Central Boiler. It's really nice stuff. I'm going to use it again to run from the garage to the house. I would highly recommend it. I paid $11 per foot. They offer caps for the ends but for some reason I couldn't justify the extra $40 for the pair. I wish I would have now.


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## Buzz Saw (Sep 27, 2016)

warno said:


> It's thermopex from Central Boiler. It's really nice stuff. I'm going to use it again to run from the garage to the house. I would highly recommend it. I paid $11 per foot. They offer caps for the ends but for some reason I couldn't justify the extra $40 for the pair. I wish I would have now.


Is that 1"?  Doesn't Thermopex measure by OD?  What's the ID?

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## warno (Sep 27, 2016)

I'm not sure on the ID but it fits standard 1" pex fittings, so  whatever standard pex is.


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## warno (Oct 1, 2016)

I have all the copper plumbing done now. I still need to run some pex up into the rafters to my heat dump coil. I also need to build my heat dump coil and duct it together with my fan. 






















I also did some firebox work this morning. I started to rebuild my refractory areas in the front. I still need to relay my firebrick and touch up my refractory in the back.


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## Buzz Saw (Oct 2, 2016)

In a previous post you mentioned a "crap trap".  Did you make the trap or is that something that can be bought?  If you bought can you share the make & model? Thanks 

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## warno (Oct 2, 2016)

Lol yeah, it's a "wye strainer" made by watts, this one. It was the cheapest way I could try to avoid getting garbage on my plate heat exchanger. Reveiws look good and they seem to be a pretty solid unit.


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## warno (Oct 9, 2016)

I'm almost ready to fill and do my pretreatment on my storage. I need to finish my heat dump coil at work them plumb and duct it in and I'm ready to go. Should be this week I'll be done with my coil and plumbing to it. 

I've finished my refractory and relaying the brick in my firebox. I also finished my modifications to hopefully help get some secondary flame above my fire. And I install my flue temp sensor to run to my controller, since it will be burning until it's out of fuel this year I installed a flue temp sensor to shut things down. 

Anyway here's some pics. 

Fire box with new refractory lining and brick






Here's the mods I did. In the back of my ash pan there is 2 air ports from my fan. One is open to flow in under the coal bed of the fire they other flows into a little drop down section in my fire grate. Seen here






The fire grate is made of 1" stainless pipe so the air flows through the grate to the front then back to the back, picking up heat the whole way, then it flows up into this branch that I made with holes in it to get the hot air up over top of the fire. 






And here's my flue temp sensor installed. I just welded in a 1/4" pipe half coupler then put in compression fitting to hold the sensor probe for easy removal when cleaning. 






And I started my heat dump zone install. Here's the fan that will blow on the coil to cool things down.


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## lotawood (Oct 12, 2016)

Looks good.  Flue temp sensor is pretty nifty to have to look at temps during burn in addition to shut down function.  With the refractory and the heated air, I bet you have your smoke under control. 

I made an air intake system that is less impressive than yours for an old wood stove.  It boosted the efficiency to where there is no visible smoke.  

I think on mine it was more about preheated air and less about secondary air.


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## warno (Oct 13, 2016)

Last piece of the puzzle. I just finished this up at work this morning. This is my heat dump zone coil.  now Time to do more plumbing and alittle duct work and light a fire. 











Threw it in the test tank for a leak check.






Held this for 10 minutes, good enough for me.


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## Buzz Saw (Oct 14, 2016)

You made the coil? 

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## warno (Oct 14, 2016)

That's what we do at work, so yeah I made it. Lol pretty handy with a hobby like this to be able to build the more expensive items from the scrap box at work. 

We had a unit using that fin and it was a big order so they always run a stack or 2 extra fin. So after the production units were done I grab the extra fin and build the aluminum frame around it. Then finished it out with copper tube (scrap box) and copper return bends (scratch and dent box)  then through some headers at it.


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## maple1 (Oct 14, 2016)

Warno's on a different level of 'handy' - lol.


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## colson04 (Oct 14, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Warno's on a different level of 'handy' - lol.


Yeah, my thought too.

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## warno (Oct 14, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Warno's on a different level of 'handy' - lol.



I'm going to take that as a compliment.


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## huffdawg (Oct 14, 2016)

Is there a fan for the coil or will it shed the heat naturally?


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## warno (Oct 14, 2016)

Refer to the last pic in post #37. I'm going to duct that fan to the coil. Yes it would shed heat without it but then I would be heating my garage attic with my excess heat and nobody wants that.


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## huffdawg (Oct 14, 2016)

warno said:


> Refer to the last pic in post #37. I'm going to duct that fan to the coil. Yes it would shed heat without it but then I would be heating my garage attic with my excess heat and nobody wants that.


Sorry, I thought it was an over heat dump for when the power went out , just wondering source of power for the fan in that case.


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## maple1 (Oct 14, 2016)

warno said:


> I'm going to take that as a compliment.



Ya, you can do that.


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## warno (Oct 14, 2016)

huffdawg said:


> Sorry, I thought it was an over heat dump for when the power went out , just wondering source of power for the fan in that case.



In the 7 years we have lived here I can probably count the power outages on my hands. If the power goes out the damper on my boiler shuts and the fire dies like going into idle mode. And turning my boiler into a creosote factory, like it was last year running like a OWB does. 

So in my case my heat dump is simply used if my boiler is over firing, like say my storage is up to temp and I put to much wood in the firebox it will dump the heat into my garage via this coil/fan setup. It honestly may never get used but for the, probably less than, $100 I have in the coil, fan, duct, and plumbing it was worth it for the "just in case" factor.


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## huffdawg (Oct 14, 2016)

Ok makes sense. My new froling calls for a heat dump for over firing too. I think I'll turn my garage floor into the heat dump. Not like I ever over fire , but nice just incase.


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## warno (Oct 14, 2016)

That was my thought exactly. My boiler would simply boil over out the vent until the low water cutoff shut everything down. But I didn't want that to even possibly happen.


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## Easy Livin’ 3000 (Oct 15, 2016)

warno said:


> That was my thought exactly. My boiler would simply boil over out the vent until the low water cutoff shut everything down. But I didn't want that to even possibly happen.


Wow. This is really impressive, from the planning to the execution. Even my pipe dreams fall far short of the work that you are doing.  There are all kinds of artistry in the world, this more than qualifies. And, not to mention, you have a 4 year old and a pregnant wife (and a day job!). Well done and keep the posts coming.


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## warno (Oct 15, 2016)

Thank you for all the compliments everyone. 

I tend to set my mind to things then make them happen one way or the other. I've been getting up at 3 am to help my wife with her meds anyway so I just start my day at that time. Put in a few hours before work for about 4-5 days a week. Then if my boy is napping when I get off work, I work on the project until he wakes up. It gets tiring but ol' fart winter isn't waiting for me to get done. It's been getting into the low 40s at night here lately and I still need to make sure this all work together.


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## warno (Oct 15, 2016)

I wrestled the probably 60 pound or better dump coil into the rafters today, that was a good time. But it's all hooked up and ready to test the whole loop for leak in the morning. With any luck I won't have any or at least easy to fix ones. And then I'm going to get it filled up.  And maybe light a small fire to start breaking in my new refractory.

Here's some pics

















And all hooked up











I also ran out to work this morning to pick up my new wood shed. It was a shipping crate that a piece of our new laser cutter came in. I cut some length off of it so it measures about 11.5' X 6' X 7'.

Some assembly required...


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## warno (Oct 16, 2016)

This morning I came out to leak check. And button up a few other things. I had some leaking unions, junk China copper ones, that I think I got sealed up now. Note to self, only buy gasketed unions from now on. I also had a leaking pex crimp joint, which is a first me me. I checked it with the go/no go and it was good but I suppose things happen. I got it sealed up.

While doing my leak checks the weather started to turn on me. So I made a garbage bag tent to keep working.






I also finished up a few wire terminations and I think I got my flue temp controller programmed.

The controller on bottom left is my flue temp and the A419 is in line with my contactor to control my fan if the boiler is to hot, just as another safety. The blue box at the bottom is a timer relay in line with the flue temp, it turns on my contactor until the flue temp reaches setpoint temp then the timer shuts off and the flue temp controller holds the contactor closed until the end of the burn cycle when the flue temp comes back down then everything shuts off until I hit the "go" button again.






I also have a float switch in the water jacket that tells if water level is good or not. So in the unlikely event of a boiler over it will shut down the entire system before my pump starts sucking air. It runs through this manual/auto switch so if it malfunctions I can bypass it and still operate.






I pulled all the wires and made all the terminations but I can't take all the credit for the wiring. I had someone help by  doing my diagram and if that someone happens to read this thread someday, huge HUGE thank you to them!

I'm going to be getting my tanks filled today, hopefully. I'm getting my buddy's well water that runs through his Softener then pumping it into my tanks. I have to make 3 trips to his house to get enough water to fill them up.


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## huffdawg (Oct 16, 2016)

Ya I had the same problem with all my copper and black iron unions.. used pipe thread compound on the surfaces . No leaks after that.


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## warno (Oct 16, 2016)

First load of many. I should have allotted more time for this job. Lol


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## brenndatomu (Oct 16, 2016)

warno said:


> This morning I came out to leak check. And button up a few other things. I had some leaking unions, junk China copper ones, that I think I got sealed up now. Note to self, only buy gasketed unions from now on. I also had a leaking pex crimp joint, which is a first me me. I checked it with the go/no go and it was good but I suppose things happen. I got it sealed up.
> 
> While doing my leak checks the weather started to turn on me. So I made a garbage bag tent to keep working.
> 
> ...


I think I recognize that temp controller, have the same one on my Tundra furnace...I think you are gonna be very impressed with this setup you have now...if not, I am!


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## warno (Oct 18, 2016)

So I finished topping off my tanks and started bleeding the loops. I can't seem to get all the air out of my loops that are in the rafters of the garage. I had the garden hose on the lowest point and the bleeder hose on the highest point. I can't seem to get it to get all the air out. I would close the bleeder then rapidly open it to get a pulse of water but it doesn't do the trick. I got a lot out to where the circulator sounds quiet but the water coils still make noise. Should I put bleeders on my coils? Or is there another way? 

Note my highest point is about 1 foot lower then the coils in my rafters. And I'm using webstone propals to do the purging.


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## TCaldwell (Oct 18, 2016)

cold water will be harder to purge air, when the water is hot it works better. have you fired it up yet? Once hot let it circulate on the highest speed of the circ, within a few hrs it will probably work its self out. also try bleeding about 1/2 gallon, as sometimes the air is in the piping and not at the top of the loop


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## warno (Oct 18, 2016)

I haven't fired it yet. I'm going to do a couple small fires to cure out my fresh refractory over the next few days then this weekend I'm going to pour the coals to it, that way I can really watch what's going on.

I'll try to run the circ on high once hot. I'll report back with my findings.

What should my starting pressure be?  Right now I'm at zero but I can put some pressure in it before starting. 

I also noticed this auto bleeder was allowing air to be pulled back into the system.






I closed the valve and the circ went quiet all most instantly.


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## Buzz Saw (Oct 19, 2016)

warno said:


> I haven't fired it yet. I'm going to do a couple small fires to cure out my fresh refractory over the next few days then this weekend I'm going to pour the coals to it, that way I can really watch what's going on.
> 
> I'll try to run the circ on high once hot. I'll report back with my findings.
> 
> ...


What's the thing on top of the air scoop? Is it required for an air scoop to work properly? 
 I'm working on hooking up my system right now and trying to get all the odds and ends together.

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## warno (Oct 19, 2016)

I put an auto bleeder on top of my air scoop.

I would recommend making a thread asking for help with your specific system. Then provide a drawing of your system and parts with a description of what you plan to do with it. These guys will help out here, this is a great site.


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## maple1 (Oct 19, 2016)

*What should my starting pressure be? Right now I'm at zero but I can put some pressure in it before starting. *

You mean on the pressurized part of your system? That includes the storage tanks?

With a new startup like this, that maybe involved a bit of 'seat of the pants' planning - that's a touchy one. You won't (or at least I didn't) get a good handle on how my expansion was going to handle the heat rise, until you actually get the heat rising. And it depends a lot on where you're measuring the pressure, and where your circs are. For example, right now on your cold system, and if it was 10' high, you could read zero at the top, and 4psi at the bottom. If your circ is at the bottom, that might be OK to start with, but if it's say half way up, you might want to bump it up a couple few pounds first (circs need some inlet pressure). The main thing is to watch pressure carefully as you heat things up so you can let some out if it starts building too much. More pressure will also make bleeding air easier - or it should at least. I would maybe try starting at 8 or so on the bottom, see what happens (not knowing what height you're working with - or where your guage or circs are).


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## warno (Oct 19, 2016)

My only 2 gauges in the tanks are at the very bottom of the bottom tank and about half way up the top tank. The tank pile is almost 8 feet tall. The circ for my plate heat hx is mounted down low and my circ for the garage hx is about 12" higher then the middle of the top tank. 

Yes only worried about pressure on the tank side because my boiler is open system.


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## leon (Oct 19, 2016)

warno said:


> My only 2 gauges in the tanks are at the very bottom of the bottom tank and about half way up the top tank. The tank pile is almost 8 feet tall. The circ for my plate heat hx is mounted down low and my circ for the garage hx is about 12" higher then the middle of the top tank.
> 
> Yes only worried about pressure on the tank side because my boiler is open system.


=====================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================



Hello Warno,


You have to be worried about the Pressure and Vacuum created by your system as it is designed for the entire system.

Your circulators are pushing water not pumping it.  Normal pressures are anywhere between 12 -25 PSI when hot-the lower the better of course.

Did you install an open expansion tank in the high point of the system to maintain a proper back pressure and allow excess water to escape through a vent line in the roof?


You should have a vacuum gauge installed in the suction side of the circulator and a pressure gauge on the pressure side of the circulator to keep an eye on the circulator condition.

You should also have a pressure gauge on the return line to the boiler sump as well.

You need to know what the Delta T and Delta P pressures and temperatures are at all times in your system to manage it.




The automatic air vent MUST MUST MUST remain open at all times to release any trapped air in the system keepingthem shut off only pushes air bubbles through the system and create an airlock condition on the high side preventing heat transfer to your home and the dump zone-it takes very little air to lock up a system-trust me Iknow this from having hot water baseboard heat(which I hate) for 38 years.

Your second air scoop is gong to need a second automatic air vent as well for the same reasons.

When you hear air whistling out of the Shraeder valve in the air vent you know its working so you need to open it back up.

I would like  you to run the system cold with no heat for a day or two to help you vent any trapped air and purge any trapped air by opening the bleeders if you do not have a power purge boiler drain in any of the heating loops.

If I have asked you this before please humor again, do you have a bleeder/boiler drain on each heating circuit?

If you do this you can vent each heating loop of air when the system is cold by Power Purging the heating loop pushing the air out of it and then you can begin heating.


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## warno (Oct 19, 2016)

Yes I'm running webstone propals at each end of each loop.

The auto vent was letting air draw back into my line which is why I shut the valve above it.

What are you talking about excess water escaping through a vent in my roof? I'm confused by that question.



EDIT: I just figured out why my pump is drawing air back in. In my hasty attempt at getting done, I put my air scoop on the suction side of the pump not the pressie side like it should be. I guess I'll be changing that tonight.


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## leon (Oct 19, 2016)

warno said:


> Yes I'm running webstone propals at each end of each loop.
> 
> The auto vent was letting air draw back into my line which is why I shut the valve above it.
> 
> ...


=======================================================================================================


I am glad you found the problem quickly.

I probably asked you this before but Is your steel expansion tank in the attic? 

Vertical steel expansion tanks are typically mounted in a vertical piping arrangement with an upside down U that is piped into the tank with a short nipple using two elbows, two short nipples and a Tee between the short nipples that is connected to the tank with another short nipple.

There is one riser pipe and one return pipe connected to the upside down U piping. The U piping arrangement is used to allow warm water to keep moving to prevent water from freezing in the vertical tank in the attic.

The overflow pipe is extended from the top of the tank through the roof and then an elbow short nipple and second elbow with a screen in it which lets the excess water out of the tank and it falls on the roof to drain away.


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## warno (Oct 19, 2016)

I do have some of my expansion in the attic. I have half in the bubble at the top of my storage tank the other half in the rafters of the garage. I plan to allow my bubble in the top of the tank to get taken up then start draining any remaining expansion on the first heating cycle. The tanks in the rafters are there to provide emergency expansion of the tanks take on more heat then intended. 

I'm confused all about the vent line. This is a closed system on my tank side. Why would I run a vent on a closed system?


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## warno (Oct 19, 2016)

I got things switched around this afternoon after work. It's pressure testing right now. I'll refill with water tomorrow and try again. Also need to redo my pump wiring as you can see its pretty slack now after the move.  

I did light a small fire in the boiler to start curing the refractory and warm things up just alittle. I used about 5-6 2x4s split up and just that got me to almost 100 degrees in the water jacket.


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## leon (Oct 19, 2016)

warno said:


> I do have some of my expansion in the attic. I have half in the bubble at the top of my storage tank the other half in the rafters of the garage. I plan to allow my bubble in the top of the tank to get taken up then start draining any remaining expansion on the first heating cycle. The tanks in the rafters are there to provide emergency expansion of the tanks take on more heat then intended.
> 
> I'm confused all about the vent line. This is a closed system on my tank side. Why would I run a vent on a closed system?



=======================================================================================================

Sorry, I forgot that your system is sealed and the boiler is open. 

If you have an air bubble in the the expasnion tanks you do not want to reduce them and increase the 
amount of water in the tanks as the air volume in the tank is a cushion to absorb the 
micro air bubbles and release cooler water into the system.

Leave the air volume alone as you need 1/3 of the volume of the expansion tank for air to compress 
as the water heats up and expands in volume.


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## warno (Oct 19, 2016)

My plan was to let the water expand up into the rafters then adjust my psi from there. I was thinking around 12 was what I wanted to run but maple1 got me thinking about the difference in pressure from top to bottom. I was just out checking on the air test and I looked at the difference in the tank pressure from top to bottom. To my amazement, the gauges were different by a few psi. So I suppose I'll start around 8 psi after things heat up and go from there.


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## maple1 (Oct 20, 2016)

I had forgotten about your air-bubble-in-tank expansion. Plus don't know or can't remember how big your other expansion is.

I would likely start cold with roughly about 10% air volume vs. water - then see how it reacts to heating. Start at say 4-6 cold at the circ. But there are kind of two 'colds' - one right now with no heat at all, and the other you would see during the heating season, when storage is depleted & you start heating it again. Guessing cold now is maybe 60-70°, and the bottom out point during the season might be 100-120°. Or maybe even more. So that's a 50°+/- temp rise from now, to your 'winter cold' point. So I would maybe aim for the 8-10 psi, at your winter cold point. Which means maybe you could start with zero cold now (or likely a bit more) & see how much it gets to at 100-120 or so. Then readjust pressure. Then if psi gets too high when fully heated or when heading for there, let some water out. Don't let any air out until you know that pressure won't be too high when fully heated. If you get fully heated without letting anything out and pressures are still good (like less than 15-18), you could then maybe let some air out & put some water in to increase water/storage volume. After getting everything purged, that is. Purging should go better when everything is hot & fully pressurized.

First go round will be a watch & balance routine.


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## warno (Oct 20, 2016)

Ok. So I'll start with just alittle pressure (say 3 psi, I think is what pump pressure recommends) and start heating things up and just watch pressure gauges to adjust when needed. I'm pretty anxious to see this thing in action I'm hoping Friday after work  I can start heating my storage tank to start the learning process. 

I need to do my pretreatment then drain and refill hopefully Saturday I'll be all filled back up and ready to "rock and roll" I think we call it? 

And maple, I have 50 gallons of expansion in the rafters and the rest is in the top of the storage tank.


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## warno (Oct 20, 2016)

I burned another small fire tonight for another break in in my refractory. So tomorrow after work in going to let er have it. Running like it should. I believe all my electronics are working properly but I still need to check 2 of my safeties. I'll do that tomorrow as well. Hoping to treat tomorrow night and drain early Saturday morning and refill and refire Saturday around midday. 

I refilled my garage loop and tested the air situation again. It seems to be alot better. I'll double check after things get warmed up.


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## warno (Oct 21, 2016)

I put a bigger fire in the box tonight, and got it up to about 160 degrees. But my plate HX draws some much heat from the boiler water it was sending 75 degree water back to the boiler. I don't know if that's just because the storage water started out at 65 degrees or what. But I was checking the ports of the plate HX with my temp gun and it said 155 entering boiler side and 75 leaving boiler side. I have a caleffi thermomix valve as return protection, which was working overtime.  The storage side was 65 entering and 95 leaving, I'm ok with that.

If my storage is closer to target temp will my boiler return temps be better?

 I couldn't seem to get my boiler much over the 160 mark while running the plate HX. I was seeing flue temps of well over 400 degrees. So I have the heat, I just need to get it into the water. I have a turbulator idea that I'm hoping will work. How much better is it to run a turbulator vs not? 

I got the top of my storage up to about 110 from about 65, after a 3 hour burn. My combustion fan went into thermal shut down from getting too hot. It was cycling on and off but my damper stayed open so it would at least natural draft when the fan wasn't running. I think I need to put in another vent down low in the boiler shed to draw in cool air from outside. Do you guys think that will be enough to cool the fan down? I already made a heat sink for the fan, I'd hate to have to put a cooling fan on my combustion fan. 

Here's my fan now.


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## maple1 (Oct 22, 2016)

I don't have a whole lot of experience with plate HXs, but I do have one. That's a big difference in DTs between sides - 80 on the boiler side, and 30 on the load side. Which I'm thinking says there's a flow imbalance between sides. I think they should theoretically be the same on each side. The 30 sounds not bad, the 80 is a lot. So I think there should be more flow through it on the boiler side - but that is compounded by the low startup temps, and the boiler bypass bypassing most of your flow to maintain decent boiler return temps.

I think I would run it like this until you get your storage temps closer to where they are normally going to be when heating, then see how the HX temps level out at. As storage rises, your bypass should bypass less, then your flow should improve through the boiler side of the HX. Assuming a 'typical' DT of 20° through the boiler, and a  protected return temp of 140, I would say your boiler is doing OK at present and wouldn't expect to see much more than 160 on it until your storage return gets hotter. I see right at 160 on boiler supply & storage top on my first lap through storage - and if storage is fully cold, that first lap can take a long time since most of the boiler flow is going around the bypass to maintain 140 return.

Not sure what to say about the fan - I don't even have one so even less experience there. Can you tell if heat is creeping/conducting back through the fan piping, from the boiler inlet to the fan? If so, some kind of gasketing for a thermal break might help. But also thinking the heat sink should be on the top side of the fan, otherwise the heat it is shedding will rise right into the fan again. Is the sink very hot?


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## warno (Oct 22, 2016)

Thanks maple, I'll keep running and stuffing wood in the thing until storage gets up higher. I just finished refilling after draining my pretreatment. So maybe tomorrow morning I can start trying to heat again. Interesting thing though I left my garage heating coils running all night to circulate the pretreat and when I went in at 6 last night and came out at 3 this morning I couldn't tell if the needle had moved from the 110 at the top header. And the tank pile was warm all the way down so I am getting heat to the bottom. 

I switched fans and went back to "ol' trusty", my fan from last year, I don't think I ever remember it shutting down even at start up. I don't have it hooked into my potential secondary air passage but it seemed to run pretty good last year without it. I don't think the secondary idea was working anyway. The reason I think this is because my chimney was pretty smokey while burning. Until it got really going anyway.  I know, I know,  I'm not hot enough with this type of boiler. I was burning oak 4x4 lumber which I hope was the reason for the smoke. It's possible the lumber had traces of oil and other crap on it and possibly not dried enough.


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## warno (Oct 23, 2016)

Ol' trusty back in action. Wiring is alittle hack but it's temporary until I figure out if this will work.






Roughly a half hour into the burn. Flue temps...






The heat is there just need to put it in the water better.

EDIT: about 1 hour into burn flue temps have sorta leveled out around 550. Alittle wisp blue/white smoke from the stack.


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## Fred61 (Oct 23, 2016)

Haven't followed this install thread because I had been traveling and doing my chores at home. Just did a bulk read and am very impressed. The one thing I noticed that may be a problem in the future is not isolating the air eliminator from the air scoop with a ball valve. Like your circulators, these are prone to failure and need to be changed out in the furure. Having to drain down the system just to change that little devil can be frustrating. Ask me how I know.


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## warno (Oct 23, 2016)

Thank you for the compliment.



Fred61 said:


> The one thing I noticed that may be a problem in the future is not isolating the air eliminator from the air scoop with a ball valve.



It is a caleffi air eliminator and it comes with a check valve for removal. So I can remove it without draining the system. Good catch though. That would have been annoying without it.


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## warno (Oct 23, 2016)

Update about 3 hours into burn. Ol trusty still kickin, just now getting warm.  The other fan I couldn't touch after about an hour. Flue temps still up there.

Here's my plate HX  readings

Boiler in






Boiler out






Storage in






Storage out






It seems to be pulling the heat down through the tanks well. I did notice the top wasn't heating like it did the other day.  I was only reading about 90 on the top temp gauge. Well I noticed my expansion tank drain valve was open still from filling yesterday morning. I closed it and the temp shot up to about 105 in a matter of minutes.


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## DaveBP (Oct 23, 2016)

Adding home-made turbulators to my Tarm Solo reduced the outgoing flue temp very nearly 100F.

And I don't think you can take any conclusions from your system until you have the storage tank temps up to at least 90F (or more) top-to-bottom.


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## warno (Oct 23, 2016)

I left the fire dieing in the box after a 5 hour burn and got the top of the tanks to about 115 and the bottom to about 105 or so. For what it's worth they felt warm to the touch throughout. I would like to get a thermal image but I don't have the equipment for that. 

I burnt every splinter of wood I had on hand, about 2 wheel barrel loads. That's why I stopped. I need to load up from the drying pile and light up again. My father and I burn from a common pile on his property. Time to visit the folks. 

Also I think I will be adding the extra vent hole in the boiler shed. With sustained 500 degree flue temps the shed got VERY hot. Couldn't hurt, right? Maybe I'll throw a damper on it with a thermostat to open and close it so I'm not getting cold winter winds whipping through.


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## maple1 (Oct 24, 2016)

Could you insulate your flue pipe? With rockwool stuff or the like?


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## warno (Oct 24, 2016)

Yes I could insulate it to some extent. This is the amount of bare steel I have hanging out before going into the double wall chimney pipe.






Best pic I have on hand, but you can see the rectangular heat exchange tube coming out into the flue adapter. I could insulate the area.  That should help quite a bit. I'll start collecting our rockwool scraps from work and try out it. Thanks for the idea.


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## warno (Oct 25, 2016)

I tossed in another load of wood tonight is burning down now. It took about an hour for it to start burning clear out of the chimney, which I need to work on.  But I checked on it about 3 hours later and I had a huge pile of coals (oak and hedge). So I raked them up and tossed in another load of oak. It took about 1/2 hour to clear up to a faint trail of smoke. 

I started the fire with about 90 degree water in the tanks when I reloaded it was just over 100 to and bottom. Which leads me to a question: 

How long does it take to heat this much water in general? 

And when charging storage should it be pulling the heat all the way down the tank or does it load the top then stack down? Mine seems to be balancing out top and bottom when heating the tanks.


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## jebatty (Oct 26, 2016)

warno said:


> How long does it take to heat this much water in general?


 You can calculate this quite easily, subject to the variable of the efficiency of your boiler and efficiency in transferring hot water from the boiler to storage or to your system. Seasoned wood (20% MC), has 6050 btu/lb of available heat energy at 400F flue temperature. One btu raises one pound of water 1F, and one gallon of water weighs 8.34 lbs. Assume about 80% efficiency in boiler/system transfer of heat to water in a 1000 gallon storage tank.

1000 gallons of water in storage weighs 8340 lbs. Therefore, it takes 8340/6050/0.82 = about 17 lbs of wood to raise the entire 1000 gallons of water 1F. 

To answer your question, the length of time is the time it takes to burn wood of known weight and doing the calculation.

As you have noticed, your boiler shed becomes quite warm. Those are btus not being transferred to the water. Depending on the location of the boiler and storage, total system efficiency can be quite a bit better than 80% if that "lost" heat becomes usable in some way. My boiler and 1000 gallon storage tank are located in my shop, my flue temp roughly ranges between 350-450F during a burn cycle, but all the heat thrown off by the boiler and the flue, as well as piping between the boiler and storage and any heat lost by storage through the insulation also heats the shop. Total system efficiency in heating my shop may approach 90%,


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## warno (Oct 26, 2016)

So I need to burn alot more wood to get it up to temp. lol I wish I could have had my flue temps heating the garage too but the insurance didn't want my fire in the building structure so the shed is about 10 feet from the garage plumbed in under ground.

I was doing sound thinking last night and I think I figured out why I have such a difference in my T across my plate HX. My boiler has about 20 feet of thermopex 1" to run through with a butt weld 90 elbow and a 45 degree sweat elbow, so not alot of head loss there _but _I'm thinking my diverter valve is adding way too much head to the boiler line. it's port for water to flow through is, at best, 1/2". so I'm thinking that is is slowing  the boiler water down tremendously allowing the plate HX to do what it does and take a huge amount of heat from my boiler side. leaving me with really low return temps meaning my return protection valve stays partially closed not allowing maximum flow to my HX. could this be my problem at the boiler side of the HX?

This is my valve


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## maple1 (Oct 26, 2016)

Are you using that for boiler return temp protection?

I have no experience with diverter valves - but this is more like what others are using for boiler return temp protection:

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Caleffi-280166A-1-Male-NPT-ThermoMix-Thermostatic-Mixing-Valve-140F


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## warno (Oct 26, 2016)

No I'm using it as a diverter if I need my heat dump to run. 

It's right here


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## maple1 (Oct 26, 2016)

Ah OK, I thought I was seeing it on the back of your boiler.

CV=7.5, it might be throttling things some. Curious what others would say - over my head a bit with it. But thinking it would flow like a zone valve, and I don't think I would want something flowing like that, on my boiler loop. (Seat of the pants thing only....). The Thermomix I randomly clicked on had CV=10, I think.


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## warno (Oct 28, 2016)

Just alittle update on things. I have been trying to heat the tanks I have gotten to about 130 so far. I think I'm losing to much heat through radiant off the tank surface so I'm thinking about doing the spray foam kit from ebay to get some insulation on them. anybody had any  luck with those kits? 

Also I noticed my pressure at the top gauge is reading next to nothing and the bottom is reading almost 20. should I be seeing this much pressure difference?


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## huffdawg (Oct 29, 2016)

warno said:


> Just alittle update on things. I have been trying to heat the tanks I have gotten to about 130 so far. I think I'm losing to much heat through radiant off the tank surface so I'm thinking about doing the spray foam kit from ebay to get some insulation on them. anybody had any  luck with those kits?
> 
> Also I noticed my pressure at the top gauge is reading next to nothing and the bottom is reading almost 20. should I be seeing this much pressure difference?



U would think u could get it above 130?


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## huffdawg (Oct 29, 2016)

I didn't use the kits.. I had a spray foam  contractor come in... he had a groan of a time spraying anything that he couldn't get the wand a couple ft away..


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## huffdawg (Oct 29, 2016)

huffdawg said:


> I didn't use the kits.. I had a spray foam  contractor come in... he had a groan of a time spraying anything that he couldn't get the wand a couple ft away from.QUOTE]


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## warno (Oct 29, 2016)

I think it will go above 130 I just haven't had time to sit out there and feed it to keep the fire going. 

I'm going to call a spray foamer this  week to get a quote.


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## warno (Nov 3, 2016)

I have the spray foamer coming to do the job tomorrow on my tanks. he asked how hot they could get, I told him possibly 180. I was going for maximum high number. he said that he would call his chemical dealer to ask if the foam will be ok at that temp. I haven't heard back from him about the dealer recommendation so I'm guessing we are good, but he has me wondering if it will be a problem. so I  ask those of you who have had your tanks foamed with closed cell, does the foam hold up to high temps very well?


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## leon (Nov 3, 2016)

Save your money and buy 4 rolls of the 6 inch by 18 inch batts of roll insulation without the moisture barrier or aluminum facing and just throw it over the top and pull it down and tape the batt ends and sides together and do the same thing on the ends of the tanks. The duct tape wont care where its used and the fiberglass insulation will not be affected by the heat.

People insulate tanks with household insulation all the time and use chicken wire to hold it in place.


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## Beagle Dad (Nov 3, 2016)

The 180°F will not hurt the foam. I used foam to maximize the R value and minimize the overall final tank diameter. The tanks were sprayed with an average of 2.5" of foam for an R value of just over 15. The tanks in the picture were sprayed in the basement, cladded then piped. When at temperature the tanks lose about 0.75% per hour initially.


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## warno (Nov 3, 2016)

I don't have the luxury of using batts to get full r value from them because my tanks are  about 2" from my wall so I would have areas where there is good insulation and areas where is not. with the spray gun the foamer can get in behind the tanks and hit them to get maximum r value from the foam. 

And beagle dad, that is a beautiful setup you have there.


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## Beagle Dad (Nov 3, 2016)

i used the batt insulation only as a support for the cladding since the foam is very hard and irregular. if your foamer is going to fill the back side with foam, consider placing some 6mil poly sheet against the wall if you do not want to glue the tanks to the wall.


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## warno (Nov 3, 2016)

Yep, plastic is up already. he is suppose to be here tomorrow afternoon . I'll try to remember to get some pictures.


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## warno (Nov 3, 2016)

Here's  how I'm sitting now.


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## warno (Nov 4, 2016)

Welp, spray foamer said his chemical rep said it's about a 50/50 shot of the foam sticking and staying. he said he had seen the foam stay on hot water tanks for good and he has seen them stay on the tanks for a month and start peeling back. I'm guessing application temps had a big roll in the bad experience but I'm not the expert. 

so I'm not going to spend the money on that. I'm going to do my best to get the fiberglass batts to lay good behind the tanks. I do have the plastic behind there already so that should help the fiberglass to slide versus hanging up on the OSB paneling.


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## huffdawg (Nov 4, 2016)

I had 4" to 6" sprayed on 6 yrs ago still on and not going anywhere. I used closed cell foam


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 4, 2016)

That is strange. Central boiler has been spraying boilers for years with no problems.


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## brenndatomu (Nov 4, 2016)

warno said:


> Welp, spray foamer said his chemical rep said it's about a 50/50 shot of the foam sticking and staying. he said he had seen the foam stay on hot water tanks for good and he has seen them stay on the tanks for a month and start peeling back. I'm guessing application temps had a big roll in the bad experience but I'm not the expert.


I bet the tank surface condition and prep (or lack thereof) has a lot to do with it. I'm sure foam is at least a little bit like paint, it's all about the prep (and then proper application too)


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## brack86svo (Nov 4, 2016)

I did a 2 part marine grade foam on mine. I made a form around the tanks with plywood, mixed one quart of equal parts together, then poured it in the mold. It would certainly help with getting the back side of your tanks. I went 6" thick which, was way overkill looking back. The place I got mine is US composites. If you google them, you will find their website. It is a fairly simply, and slightly messy process. I went with 2lb closed cell foam. If you can't find their site, let me know and I can post a link.


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## Beagle Dad (Nov 5, 2016)

For future reference, here is the spec sheet for the 2 pound foam. The sheet provides the expansion after the foam is applied for the temperature range of -20C (-4F) to 100C (212F). Foam is used to -40F and I would expect it can be used to over 212F


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## warno (Nov 5, 2016)

That's good to know thank you. 

Since I didn't get my foam done, I figured it wouldn't hurt to heat the tanks back up. I burned for about 5 hours straight and got the top up to 160. after the fire started dieing down they balanced out around 150. But while my boiler was getting up to temp. it was pushing 185 at the supply fittings at the boiler the return temp was around 130. I noticed my thermomix valve was making a weird  noise.  why  would it be doing this? 

Here's the noise


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## warno (Nov 8, 2016)

Ok, so, as of yesterday I lost my job. so this system might be going up for sale very soon. keep a look out in the for sale ads if you're interested .


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## huffdawg (Nov 8, 2016)

warno said:


> Ok, so, as of yesterday I lost my job. so this system might be going up for sale very soon. keep a look out in the for sale ads if you're interested .



Thats crappy news .. hopefully you'll find another . you seem to have quite a few good skill sets.


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## TCaldwell (Nov 8, 2016)

You've come too far to give up,hopefully you can find a job


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## brenndatomu (Nov 8, 2016)

warno said:


> Ok, so, as of yesterday I lost my job. so this system might be going up for sale very soon. keep a look out in the for sale ads if you're interested .


Dislike...DISLIKE! 


huffdawg said:


> Thats crappy news .. hopefully you'll find another . you seem to have quite a few good skill sets.


X2!


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## maple1 (Nov 8, 2016)

warno said:


> Ok, so, as of yesterday I lost my job. so this system might be going up for sale very soon. keep a look out in the for sale ads if you're interested .



Uggh, man, that's harsh. All the best to ya going forward!


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## warno (Nov 8, 2016)

Thanks guys. I have a few leads on some  welding positions and throwing apps out like crazy tomorrow. I have a few  apps to fill it today and a bunch of phone calls to make for verious things.


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## maple1 (Nov 8, 2016)

Did you have any warning?

Or even a premonition?

Don't give up on the infrastructure just yet.


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## brenndatomu (Nov 8, 2016)

Just show 'em pics of your handiwork here...they'll be fightin over ya!


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## warno (Nov 8, 2016)

I was let go over a technically. about 4 years ago I was reprimanded over working on my own projects on company time. and was told then if it ever happened again I would be fired. well on Friday I had 2 little weld fittings, the size of my little finger, sand blasted while the guy was running production parts. The operator brought the parts to me when a supervisor was walking up to ask about another matter. That was Friday, so I went to the office Monday morning to try to clear my name. my boss appreciated my honestly but it didn't matter. 

I then proceeded to say that the weld line supervisor has had plenty of items built on company time and the sheet metal supervisor just last week had me weld something for him. but that is ok for them to do but not me.  

I'll be honest though. I'm ok with it. for the last few years I've felt stuck. I've been there 10 years.  I loved the facility, the people were great for the most part, the pay was good but it was offset by bad benefits and horrible retirement. so I'm hoping it's all a blessing in disguise.


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## brenndatomu (Nov 8, 2016)

That's one thing that I really like about the place that I work, my boss knows that I often work through breaks and work "over" 5-10 minutes almost everyday (for free) so if I do a small "government" project on the clock when there is a little free time, its no big deal at all.
Just attach these two pics to your application, you'll be in line Flynn!





	

		
			
		

		
	
 This second pic looks like the weld was painted on by Leonardo da Vinci! Incredible...


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## huffdawg (Nov 8, 2016)

Its too bad when some  employers cant figure out that if you give some perks that employees will go through a wall  for you.


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## mustash29 (Nov 8, 2016)

That totally sucks, but IMO you deserve better.  Your welding abilities are simply stunning.

I spent 10 yrs in the navy nuclear field, and the last 17 at a trash to energy power plant.  I've seen 2000 psi nuke grade welds that needed to pass x-ray tests, 1200 psi steam plant stuff, 3500 psi hydraulic stuff.  You are definitely gifted with ability and attention to detail.  Keep your chin up and the best of luck with whatever happens next.


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## warno (Nov 8, 2016)

Thanks guys. I'm a pretty optimistic and opportunistic man. So even if it's getting my foot in the door to get to something better, I'm all about it. and being young, at 28, helps. I have alot of years left to work.


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## warno (Nov 16, 2016)

So back on track here. I figured I'd keep heating since everything is up and running already. but I have a question about what happened today I hope you guys can help me with. 

I started a fire this morning and it started  out just fine. so I left it to do its thing. when I returned there was a bunch of water pushed out the vent of  the boiler, so I checked the temp. the boiler was sitting at 200F. my storage was at 160F. my plate HX  has been dropping 30 degrees on the boiler side for every 20 degrees picked up by the storage. so why did my boiler end up getting so hot  and shutting down? is 160F really all the hotter I can expect my storage to get?


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Nov 17, 2016)

How big is your plate? I'd expect it to get much closer than that. I have a 40 plate and I can get within about 10 degrees of the owb temp. I don't have storage though. That is just heating the indoor boiler loop.


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## warno (Nov 17, 2016)

It's a 20 plate HX. I thought about going to a 30 but I was worried it would pull to much heat from the boiler.


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## warno (Nov 20, 2016)

Lately I've been seeing over 600 flue temps. so this morning I decided to build my prototype turbulator. well I stuffed it in the heat exchanger and instantly lost 45 degrees at the readout. so apparently turbulators have their place in the world.

Here's a pic of my goofy turbulator







Can't believe the flue gases wrapping around this thing 2.5 times it loses 45 degrees. wow!


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## warno (Nov 23, 2016)

I had my dad come over today and help me start boxing in my tanks and finishing my ceiling panels. we started putting some insulation in the eves of the garage to get ready for the blown-in insulation. 

Some pics. 

I still need to put my temp sensors all over my tanks so I didn't completely stuff the box full yet. 
















And the ceiling panels











With the ceiling closed in and the tanks semi insulated, my storage should last alot longer now.


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## warno (Dec 7, 2016)

So I started trying to change things up to get a better burn. I change my secondary (over fire) air. I added a piece of pipe to my drop down in my fire grate and another piece in my cap that covers that entrance in the ash pan. I also changed my branch that the secondary air comes from.

Addition to drop down in fire grate.






Cap with pipe going into the drop down. this insures positive engagement between the fire grate and outside air pipe.






Outside air enters valve,  here






And the new branch where hopefully secondary flames will occur. it's not real pretty but this is temporary for  testing.


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## brenndatomu (Dec 8, 2016)

warno said:


> Ok, so, as of yesterday I lost my job.


Ever get this minor lil detail ironed out?


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## warno (Dec 8, 2016)

brenndatomu said:


> Ever get this minor lil detail ironed out?



Nope, still looking. I've applied at all the top priority places I was looking and I'm slowly trickling down now. today I was kicking around the idea of applying at hardees in town.  lol its something, you know. I worked at a BK 10 years ago it couldnt be much different.

It's a bad time of year to be looking for a manufacturing job.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Dec 9, 2016)

Did you say your plate hx is only a 20 plate? That's not much heat transfer area for that much water.


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## warno (Dec 9, 2016)

Yeah it's only a 20 plate. it sheds about 30 degrees from boiler water to every 20 degrees of storage pickup until things get really close to balancing out. I was worried about return temps so I went with the 20 plate. I think I could have gone 25 out 30.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Dec 9, 2016)

That's an interesting way of keeping the delta t in check. Conventional way of doing that would be to size your pump to do that.


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## warno (Dec 9, 2016)

hondaracer2oo4 said:


> That's an interesting way of keeping the delta t in check. Conventional way of doing that would be to size your pump to do that.



I already had the pump on hand to use and the exchanger was only $110 on ebay vs a $200 delta t pump. 

I've been thinking about switching it up next year by putting a delta t pump on both sides of the heat exchanger. and possibly a bigger heat exchanger.


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## hondaracer2oo4 (Dec 9, 2016)

What are you getting for a delta t on the boiler side now? I would think you would want to get close to 20 as possible when charging the system since you have a conventional design boiler and high stack temps which equal higher btus lost to the atmosphere. The higher the delta t you can get without causing the boiler to lose temp and also not high enough to cause shock to the boiler with low return temps the more btus you will be able to send to the water tanks  instead of the atmosphere. I would think that if you could get the boiler into the 175-180 range and then start charging the tanks and could find the correct delta t that you didn't gain or lose any temp on the boiler side that would be the ideal delta t. Any one with water storage expierence got any opinions on that?


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## warno (Dec 9, 2016)

I'll be adding in another turbulator in my heat exchanger to lower my stack temps more. 

But to answer your question, my delta t on the boiler side us right around 30 degrees. I'm not concerned with shocking the boiler as I have a protection valve for that. my problem with charging my tanks that I see now is when my boiler approaches 180-190 range the tanks don't take as much heat as before. the delta T at that point is only about 10 degrees on the storage side. I guess that's where a delta t pump would play a big roll.


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