# Why does electric use increase in winter



## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

I am looking for ideas as to why electric usage increases in the winter?

In my case my electric use is doubled comparing June to November just looking strictly at KW usage because our wonderful electric company raises rates in the winter. So total bill dollar amount is more then double comparing the months.

All light bulbs are led and we really don't use much more light compared to summer.

All electric heaters off at breaker.

Hot tub off in winter. In summer hot tub is running.

Hot water heater costs more to run because water coming in is colder in winter but it is almost brand new and energy efficient.

Don't use blower on stove.

Cook stove is gas and we use 1 therm on average a month.

Kill-a-watt meter testing the deep freezer in the garage shows only very slight increase in usage from summer to winter.

I have a brand new Square D breaker panel in house and sub panel in garage. And when I installed the panels I had electric company check the meter. The tech was out here hanging out for several hours waiting on more calls and helping me work on the panel. I'm pretty confident the meter is fairly accurate and it's digital.

Any ideas what else I could check?

I'm sure I'm missing something.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 21, 2017)

What are the numbers?

Could an estimated bill be involved?

Is the water heater in a cold place, vs warm in summer?

Could the well pump be a factor somehow?

You can buy whole house electric monitors that aren't really expensive.  Might buy a few kw-hrs though, lol.


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> What are the numbers?
> 
> Could an estimated bill be involved?
> 
> ...



Bill is not estimated. It's been like this every winter.

Well pump. I thought about it. Not sure how the cold would affect it? Any thoughts?  Also we water our garden and fruit trees in the summer so there is less use in the winter. We have an above ground jet pump that feeds an in ground cistern that feeds the house so there are 2 pumps. 

Water heater is about 5 feet from the stove behind a wall with an opening that keeps it warm.


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)




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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

Orange bar is current month. Light blue/Grey bat is same period last year. And the darker blue bars are the last year. 

We don't change anything as far as daily energy usage and there seems to be no pattern in usage. It's all over the place!


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

The drop from August to September is from turning off the hot tub.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 21, 2017)

That seems crazy high to me.  I'm, like, 300-400 kw-hr/mo.


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## Husky (Dec 21, 2017)

Do you use electric blankets in the winter, what about Christmas lights, ect. Not that these would spike your usage that much. Something you are doing in the winter months is causing more electric usage. If you have central air kill the breaker at the box. Even when not in use it draws electricity.


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> That seems crazy high to me.  I'm, like, 300-400 kw-hr/mo.



Right. If you look at Feb it was like 3300ish.

Appliances that we have:
TV (1)
Dish network box
Washer and dryer (no kids)
Fridge
Dishwasher
Deep freezer
Microwave 
Air compressor (only plugged in when using rare)
Hot water heater 
Led light fixtures 
Cell phone chargers
1 floor lamp with led bulb
WiFi modem

All heaters off at breaker 
Shop heat is propane with no fan. 
Hot tub unplugged in winter


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

Husky said:


> Do you use electric blankets in the winter, what about Christmas lights, ect. Not that these would spike your usage that much. Something you are doing in the winter months is causing more electric usage. If you have central air kill the breaker at the box. Even when not in use it draws electricity.



No electric blankets. I have one string of led Christmas lights that we use year round for light on our covered deck.

No central air. We have no cooling system at all. Only baseboard heaters which are all off at breaker box and tested with non contact meter to verify.

Good ideas though!


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## heat seeker (Dec 21, 2017)

Do you have heat tapes on pipes, or your eaves? Some are thermostatically controlled, so only go on in cold weather. Any tapes on hidden pipes in attic or crawl space?


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

heat seeker said:


> Do you have heat tapes on pipes, or your eaves? Some are thermostatically controlled, so only go on in cold weather. Any tapes on hidden pipes in attic or crawl space?



I have searched every inch of this place looking specifically for heat tape. I found some on my pipe for the well shortly after we bought the house. I promptly removed it. It's possible that there is some under ground between the well and the cistern but if there is I can't find where it is wired in at.


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## Husky (Dec 21, 2017)

I would call electric company and ask them. They may have seen this before and have an idea of what is going on in the winter months.


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## festerw (Dec 21, 2017)

Do you hang your clothes to dry in the summer?


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

Husky said:


> I would call electric company and ask them. They may have seen this before and have an idea of what is going on in the winter months.



I have talked to them several times. They tell me it's my fault and something in my house. Told me to check the basics.


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

festerw said:


> Do you hang your clothes to dry in the summer?



No we don't.


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## Ashful (Dec 21, 2017)

Do you have a basement dehumidifier?  I was surprised with a $400 bill one December, and realized it was from one of our basement dehumidifiers, which had frozen solid and was just running furiously to no avail.  It was a surprise to me, as I’m used to them normally only running in the summer months.


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Do you have a basement dehumidifier?  I was surprised with a $400 bill one December, and realized it was from one of our basement dehumidifiers, which had frozen solid and was just running furiously to no avail.  It was a surprise to me, as I’m used to them normally only running in the summer months.


 
No we don't. We have a crawl space. Nothing down there that takes electric.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 21, 2017)

I have one of these.  It's proven to be reliable, but not high tech, like recording historical usage on a time interval basis.  I keep it in the kitchen and look at it when I pass by.  It projects how much energy will be used for the month.  It currently predicts 297 kw-hr.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NIB-Whole-...579101?hash=item46726edddd:g:-CYAAOSwiYlaIhkO


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I have one of these.  It's proven to be reliable, but not high tech, like recording historical usage on a time interval basis.  I keep it in the kitchen and look at it when I pass by.  It projects how much energy will be used for the month.  It currently predicts 297 kw-hr.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/NIB-Whole-...579101?hash=item46726edddd:g:-CYAAOSwiYlaIhkO



Do I need to wire that in the panel?


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## velvetfoot (Dec 21, 2017)

It has two sensors that clip on the incoming lines.  They send info over power lines to panel.  There can be interference in the lines from appliances that inject it into the lines.  There are wireless ones now that this is not a factor.  Mine samples about once a second but the wireless ones are longer duration.  My panel is nice, but if I had to do it over now, I think I'd go wireless.  They didn't make wireless when I got mine.  I really don't know what the current models do.  I think it'd be worth it in you case.  If you could track it down, it could save a lot of money.


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> It has two sensors that clip on the incoming lines.  They send info over power lines to panel.  There can be interference in the lines from appliances that inject it into the lines.  There are wireless ones now that this is not a factor.  Mine samples about once a second but the wireless ones are longer duration.  My panel is nice, but if I had to do it over now, I think I'd go wireless.  They didn't make wireless when I got mine.  I really don't know what the current models do.  I think it'd be worth it in you case.  If you could track it down, it could save a lot of money.



I have 2 110 lines and no ground or neutral. That us what our power company supplies us. Think it will work?


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## velvetfoot (Dec 21, 2017)

Doc C said:


> I have 2 110 lines and no ground or neutral. That us what our power company supplies us. Think it will work?


I'm no electric guru, but that seems crazy to me too.  But, all you need are the two incoming mains to put the clamps around.  You should make sure that whatever you get, it has two of the current sensors...some might only have one:  you need to measure both legs.


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

velvetfoot said:


> I'm no electric guru, but that seems crazy to me too.  But, all you need are the two incoming mains to put the clamps around.  You should make sure that whatever you get, it has two of the current sensors...some might only have one:  you need to measure both legs.



They have us ground through 2 grounding rods at the house. The electric company only has a two wire system.


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## kenora (Dec 21, 2017)

Hi..something is waaaaaaay out of line there. I have an ELECTRICALLY HEATED house up in the frosty north ... I use less energy than you do. and I have a 20kw electric forced air furnace. And its COLD right now Its running a lot.

You either have a faulty meter or a huge load that you don't know about...I'm betting on the meter and if that is the case the electric company owes you some big $$$..


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## Doc C (Dec 21, 2017)

kenora said:


> Hi..something is waaaaaaay out of line there. I have an ELECTRICALLY HEATED house up in the frosty north ... I use less energy than you do. and I have a 20kw electric forced air furnace. And its COLD right now Its running a lot.
> 
> You either have a faulty meter or a huge load that you don't know about...I'm betting on the meter and if that is the case the electric company owes you some big $$$..



That is why I decided to pursue and answer with everyone here. I know how much we electric we use and it does not equal what they say we are using

For instance right now we have 1 light on with 3 led bulbs and the TV. That's it! That is the normal for the evening.

During the day it's usually 2 lights with a total of 5 led bulbs. And the TV on a music channel. Occasionally we will run a ceiling fan.

And keep in mind our house is 1968 square feet. 2 of the bedrooms are closed off and have no lights in them. Probably around 1500 or so square feet are being used. 

That includes 1 bedroom, 2 bathrooms, a kitchen and living room.


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## fbelec (Dec 22, 2017)

are you in a single family house? are there 120 volt heaters in the house? bathrooms are so small they use a 500 watt heater. where is the wood stove located? i ask this because my wood stove is in our kitchen and the heat travels right by my fridge on it's way around the house. do you have a diesel car or truck plugged in? they can be 800 to 1200 watts.


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## Husky (Dec 22, 2017)

Meter could be having a problems when the temperatures drop. Get the electric company out figure it out. They should work with you if you plead your case. Keep going up the chain until someone will help you. There is no way you are using that much electric with what you have told us.


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## peakbagger (Dec 22, 2017)

How about the electric heater is thermosyphoning heat up through the hot water piping? It is effectively electric heat and would increase as the temperatures drop.


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## moey (Dec 22, 2017)

Get a electrician or yourself out there and have them measure the draw on each breaker. To have a usage that high something is faulty (meter) or running continuously and you don't know about it. My bet would be something is running continuously and you don't know about it. The usage graph is almost identical to me ( we have a geo heat pump ). We consume more as it gets cold. 

Can you break down your usage per day from your graph? If you can check out the corresponding temperatures on those days. If it does you could even start shutting off breakers each day and see if any being in the off position for a day make a difference. You may be able to look at the digital readout on your outdoor meter too and do this. It would take 20 days or so to get through all your breakers doing that.


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## maple1 (Dec 22, 2017)

Something is whacked. Even when heating our DHW with electric in the summer, our total daily use doesn't go over 25kwh/day. Just got our last bill a couple days ago, and the past 2 months averaged at around 15. (I am suspecting they read the meter wrong for this one - it's never been that low before. Although we did get all the kids out of the house in September).

I have an Effergy energy monitor. Similar to the one on the previous page. The display is right beside me right now, and is at 637 watts. I would highly recommend one. I would also consider getting an electrician in & checking each circuit in the panel for amperage draw, and he should also be able to do the same thing for your feed lines and compare that to what the meter is saying at that moment. Should be a quick easy job for him - then you will have some solid info. You could also do it yourself if comfortable with a multi meter that has amp measuring capability.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2017)

Perspective is an interesting thing.  So many folks claiming something must be dramatically wrong, and here I am thinking, “what’s the big deal?”  Most of your “per month” numbers match my “per week usage”.  Folks claiming something must be out of whack are making too many assumptions, IMO.  We use roughly 1700 kWh per month when we’re not running the central AC... much more than that in hot summer months.


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## burnham (Dec 22, 2017)

Doc C said:


> They have us ground through 2 grounding rods at the house. The electric company only has a two wire system.




  There's no neutral at all?  I can't see how ground rods would be enough to provide a neutral for the house, never mind clear a fault in a reasonable amount of time.   Could the house be getting a neutral from another source, like a copper water service, or the ground wire on a cable TV service?


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## Doc C (Dec 22, 2017)

burnham said:


> There's no neutral at all?  I can't see how ground rods would be enough to provide a neutral for the house, never mind clear a fault in a reasonable amount of time.   Could the house be getting a neutral from another source, like a copper water service, or the ground wire on a cable TV service?



I'm mistaken. Had to think about that after I had my coffee. I installed a new breaker box last year so it was all a little fuzzy. There is 2 hots and a neutral there is no ground. I had to use SER cable for the main from the meter tk the panel and it was 4 wire and I had to cut the ground.


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## Doc C (Dec 22, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Perspective is an interesting thing.  So many folks claiming something must be dramatically wrong, and here I am thinking, “what’s the big deal?”  Most of your “per month” numbers match my “per week usage”.  Folks claiming something must be out of whack are making too many assumptions, IMO.  We use roughly 1700 kWh per month when we’re not running the central AC... much more than that in hot summer months.



Right. Except that I have huge swings in usage without the actual usage occurring that I can find.


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## velvetfoot (Dec 22, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Perspective is an interesting thing.  So many folks claiming something must be dramatically wrong, and here I am thinking, “what’s the big deal?”  Most of your “per month” numbers match my “per week usage”.  Folks claiming something must be out of whack are making too many assumptions, IMO.  We use roughly 1700 kWh per month when we’re not running the central AC... much more than that in hot summer months.


He used about 3000 kwh last feb!


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## jeanw (Dec 22, 2017)

when we moved Hubby gave away my old clothes dryerBarely used) since we Havent used it since "Who knows when." mostly diapers and later towlel. So Hubby is used to ruff bath towels after all these years. LOL
  Drying a  wet washer load upstairs on clothes racks or a few hanging around supplies us some humidity during the winter .esp with dry fireplace heat...
. what about outdoor spotlights. ?   Porches light etc ///I used to unplug tv, toaster   etc years ago. I need to  start turning off computer hubs etc. One of our small uprights had froze her and int realize we didn't have the little our shut all the way.    Glad I finally noticed.."
  Also I heard this AH Smartmeters steal your electric "speaking" to each other.
 Just a commenting


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## maple1 (Dec 22, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Perspective is an interesting thing.  So many folks claiming something must be dramatically wrong, and here I am thinking, “what’s the big deal?”  Most of your “per month” numbers match my “per week usage”.  Folks claiming something must be out of whack are making too many assumptions, IMO.  We use roughly 1700 kWh per month when we’re not running the central AC... much more than that in hot summer months.



Put your list of what you're running up against his.


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## Ashful (Dec 22, 2017)

Doc C said:


> Right. Except that I have huge swings in usage without the actual usage occurring that I can find.





velvetfoot said:


> He used about 3000 kwh last feb!



Okay, good point.  That's a crapload of electrons, no matter how you use 'em.



maple1 said:


> Put your list of what you're running up against his.


This isn't a contest, and we've all been thru this before.  I was just responding to your opening sentences of post #31.  I'm only running lights, TV's, computers and refrigerators.  No electric heat, and I only have heat pumps on a few auxiliary rooms, my primary heat is oil and wood.  Even our primary water heater is oil.


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## semipro (Dec 22, 2017)

I think it would be worth it for you to buy a clamp on AC amp meter and then do some checking on the circuits coming into the house and in the breaker/fuse panel.  You can also watch your meter while first shutting down all circuits and then flipping each breaker on to see the impact on the meter reading.  I assume you validated the reported meter readings first hand? 
Crazy thought - the meter is located outside in the cold. I'm wondering if a defective meter could be affected by the cold. Again, the amp meter would help with diagnosing that.


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## Doc C (Dec 22, 2017)

semipro said:


> I think it would be worth it for you to buy a clamp on AC amp meter and then do some checking on the circuits coming into the house and in the breaker/fuse panel.  You can also watch your meter while first shutting down all circuits and then flipping each breaker on to see the impact on the meter reading.  I assume you validated the reported meter readings first hand?
> Crazy thought - the meter is located outside in the cold. I'm wondering if a defective meter could be affected by the cold. Again, the amp meter would help with diagnosing that.



I  planning on buying one of those meters. Also the meter is outside in the cold. It's also digital so it has a little blinks deal instead of spinning deal


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## fbelec (Dec 23, 2017)

while you are at it with a amprobe check the load on any under ground circuits. i had a customer call me say everytime his kids went to shut the sprinkler that they were playing in that was mounted to his shed they get zapped. i checked all over the yard got all the way to the front yard i put my volt meter on each metal post either side of his gate and got 120 volts. went inside put on a amprobe on the outside circuit going to his shed and he was leaking electricity into the ground via the wiring job his state cop friend did for him at the tune of 10 amps 24/7 365 that works out to be 864 kwh a month not counting getting zapped


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## drz1050 (Dec 23, 2017)

Definitely verify at your meter that their readings are correct, you might be getting your neighbor's bill. Wouldn't be the first time... something is way off there.


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## maple1 (Dec 23, 2017)

Ashful said:


> Okay, good point.  That's a crapload of electrons, no matter how you use 'em.
> 
> 
> This isn't a contest, and we've all been thru this before.  I was just responding to your opening sentences of post #31.  I'm only running lights, TV's, computers and refrigerators.  No electric heat, and I only have heat pumps on a few auxiliary rooms, my primary heat is oil and wood.  Even our primary water heater is oil.



Maybe I could have worded those sentences a little better. The whacked comment wasn't just based on a consumption number but also the pattern of bigger in the winter. When the hot tub is off - which seems to me would be the biggest user based on what was posted. But that graph showing around 2600-3200 kwh/mo for winter consumption numbers is the bigger contributor to my whacked term - so based on what was posted about what is (and isn't) using electricity in the OPs house, I think I am still comfortable with the word whacked.  

BTW, to the OP - is the hot tub truly off? Do you drain it and all hoses etc. completely so it won't freeze?


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## Brian26 (Dec 23, 2017)

Just curious what you pay for power per kwh in Idaho? Some rough math off your chart would be a power bill here that I wouldnt even want to think about with the highest electricity prices in the lower 48. You would be looking at a 4-5K power bill a year.


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## Doc C (Dec 23, 2017)

Brian26 said:


> Just curious what you pay for power per kwh in Idaho? Some rough math off your chart would be a power bill here that I wouldnt even want to think about with the highest electricity prices in the lower 48. You would be looking at a 4-5K power bill a year.



It's around 10 cents per KWH. Goes up or down slightly depending on time of year and also after 600 KWH peronthbit goes up 1 cent roughly.


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## Doc C (Dec 23, 2017)

maple1 said:


> Maybe I could have worded those sentences a little better. The whacked comment wasn't just based on a consumption number but also the pattern of bigger in the winter. When the hot tub is off - which seems to me would be the biggest user based on what was posted. But that graph showing around 2600-3200 kwh/mo for winter consumption numbers is the bigger contributor to my whacked term - so based on what was posted about what is (and isn't) using electricity in the OPs house, I think I am still comfortable with the word whacked.
> 
> BTW, to the OP - is the hot tub truly off? Do you drain it and all hoses etc. completely so it won't freeze?



Yes it off and drained. And I even clean the little bit of water out of the bottom that doesn't drain out on it's own.


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## Corey (Dec 24, 2017)

My bill has always done similar, so you're not alone in the 'winter spike'.  I don't turn the hot tub off  - it likely sees more use in the winter!, but here are some other things I have always 'felt' led to my higher bill: (some have already been mentioned)

Shorter days/longer nights mean the house / shop lights are on more.
Being in the house usually means the TV is on (wife's rule, can't argue) regardless of anyone watching or not.
Christmas lights 
Visiting family & inlaws (who have no concept that closing a door actually keeps heat IN the house)
More cooking / baking, not only for the visitors, but we just seem to eat 'heavier' meals in the winter
Washing / drying heavy winter clothes vs light weight summer attire
Longer showers to warm up the cold/creaky/old bones

None of these things is going to be a huge energy hog, but combined the do seem to demand more electrons per unit time than in the summer.


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## Ashful (Dec 24, 2017)

This thread really screws with the Tapatalk home page, due to the enormous screen shot posted earlier in the thread showing up in preview.  Here’s something more fun, and more importantly, smaller to look at. 

This is my September usage, so no heat, no AC, and it’s still daylight savings time.  I won’t post July, lest woodgeek’s head explodes.


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## Doc C (Dec 24, 2017)

Ashful said:


> This thread really screws with the Tapatalk home page, due to the enormous screen shot posted earlier in the thread showing up in preview.  Here’s something more fun, and more importantly, smaller to look at.
> 
> This is my September usage, so no heat, no AC, and it’s still daylight savings time.  I won’t post July, lest woodgeek’s head explodes.
> 
> View attachment 218623



I thought some how you got your hands on my neighbor comparison. It looks exactly the same!!


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## OhioBurner© (Dec 24, 2017)

Married? Wife sneaking electric heat while your out? lol
My rates have usually been much higher in the winter, presumably due to space heaters.
After my X moved out, my consumption has dropped substantially, and little difference between summer and winter. We'll say an average of 500kWh/mo during warmer half of year and 650 cooler half. I assume from additional lighting and interior electronics usage, plus extra load on electric water heater and fans moving stove heat around the house. While my X was here and used space heaters during the coldest months those months would double or triple in usage!


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## Ashful (Dec 25, 2017)

Doc C said:


> I thought some how you got your hands on my neighbor comparison. It looks exactly the same!!


You know... so many people (including one of my _neighbors_) have told me the same thing, that I suspect they're sending the same email to everyone.  Just take your last bill and say the neighbors were 32% less.


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## fbelec (Dec 26, 2017)

just thought of one other that can easily be forgotten bathroom in floor heating


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## Highbeam (Dec 26, 2017)

I own an effergy whole house monitor. I installed it many years ago after I swapped to a new Siemens panel. It was cheap, easy to install, and very educational.

I noticed a base load of 150 watts when everything was turned off so I bought a clamp on ammeter from Home Depot for like 30$. Open the panel and put the clamp around each wire as it heads into the breaker looking for the leak. I found lots of little consumers like gfci plugs but the electric oven had a constant 58 watt draw for nothing but a clock! I never got it to zero since the remaining 100 Watts is low enough for me to ignore and no easy fixes.

This is what you do. Investigate each circuit to find a leaker. 

First though you need to check your bill to find the meter number and verify that the number matches your meter. 

I use a hot tub too, especially in the winter, it is responsible for about half of my bill! Around 2$ per day in winter.


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## Brian26 (Dec 28, 2017)

Noticed the oil fired peaking power plant in New Haven was running full bore this morning. They only start it when there is an extremely high demand for power. Just checked the ISO New England website and the demand and prices are crazy with this cold here in New England. Prices are around $200 a MWH (1000KWH) wholesale. 

 It looks like they also scale back all the natural gas plants and are using mostly oil fired plants right now. I am guessing because of strained natural gas lines with the brutal cold here.

https://www.iso-ne.com/isoexpress/


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## peakbagger (Dec 28, 2017)

Yup, ISO predicted this choice a few years back, gas to keep folks warm or gas to keep the power plants running. Users with interuptible power contracts have already gotten the call to switch to alternative fuels and anyone with an oil, wood or coal fired power plant is making a bundle.


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## saewoody (Dec 28, 2017)

Brian26 said:


> Just curious what you pay for power per kwh in Idaho? Some rough math off your chart would be a power bill here that I wouldnt even want to think about with the highest electricity prices in the lower 48. You would be looking at a 4-5K power bill a year.



Gotta love CT!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dobish (Jan 5, 2018)

This is mine over the last 2 years.  What i noticed was that we have an electric fireplace in our room that didn't get turned on this past december. You can see the difference!  We are roughly 1960sqft, with basically 5 people home all day long. 3-4 loads of laundry per week, 1-2 dishwasher loads, electric water heater, 1/2 the house is LED lights, a fridge and a separate freezer.


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

I was sick for a few days and sleeping on the couch. One thing I noticed was both of our laptops would turn on probably once an hour during the night. The fans would come on and you could hear the disc drives running for awhile. I know this is not my problem but I have a feeling it's adding to the bill some.

I have been tracking and testing and monitoring EVERYTHING in the house and I am not finding any major draws. I am wondering if it is either an intermittent draw or its an error on the power company side.


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## Dobish (Jan 5, 2018)

you said it was a digital meter right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/13/business/13meter.html


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)




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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

I am on track to use approximately 2076 KWH this month! I used 1936 KWH last month. 

This is making no sense at all! This month I have intentionally used less electric then last month. We have lived in an almost dark house. And we have not used any fans. I even have the fan between my floors for heat movement turned off and just letting the heat from the wood stove naturally go upstairs. 

Also I unplugged everything in the shop, all my power tool chargers, everything. Except the deep freezer. 

Nothing I am checking is showing enough electric use to matter. By my calculations I should be running less then 1000 KWH

What the heck!


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2018)

How are you checking? Have you checked all your circuits with a meter? No matter where it's going you should be able to find it with a proper multi meter and techniques.


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2018)

If you cant find it get an electrician in, as i think also suggested earlier.


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

maple1 said:


> If you cant find it get an electrician in, as i think also suggested earlier.



I already did. He thinks it's something intermittent as well. Luckily he's a friend of mine so he only charged me an hour but he could not find anything either.


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

maple1 said:


> How are you checking? Have you checked all your circuits with a meter? No matter where it's going you should be able to find it with a proper multi meter and techniques.



I am also personally checking everything myself. I have a clamp style meter, a multi meter, and a kill-a-watt meter to plug appliances into to test for a few days. I am very  good with electric but I am stumped.


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2018)

This is kind of a boggling thing.

So was the amperage draw across the mains coming into the panel checked? And it agreed with what the power companies meter was saying?


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

maple1 said:


> This is kind of a boggling thing.
> 
> So was the amperage draw across the mains coming into the panel checked? And it agreed with what the power companies meter was saying?



No. I need to get one of the meters that I can leave on the mains and track for a month to compare. With the electric company meter I have I can't see how much is being drawn in real time. The only thing it has is a flashing light essentially and the faster it flashes the more power is being used.


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2018)

It shouldnt take a month of measuring. I dont think. If you had it hooked up for a day you should be able to tell. If the electric meter displays a running total? I would get an Efergy or similar, like, yesterday.


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2018)

Actually I would also be very tempted to rattle the utility companys chain, hard, if you have paid an electrician to find something and he couldn't. That could be enough to indicate to them a possibly defective meter.


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

maple1 said:


> It shouldnt take a month of measuring. I dont think. If you had it hooked up for a day you should be able to tell. If the electric meter displays a running total? I would get an Efergy or similar, like, yesterday.



It just depends on how intermittent it is. But I understand your thought process on a day or two of tracking.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 5, 2018)

Just did some re-reading. Can you explain your double water pump setup? Also, is that a smart meter? Or just a simple digital?


----------



## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Just did some re-reading. Can you explain your double water pump setup? Also, is that a smart meter? Or just a simple digital?



It is a smart meter. 

I have an above ground 220/240 volt well pump that feeds from the well to an in ground cistern. The pump in the cistern is 110/120 submersible. The cistern feeds the pressure tank when the pressure drops below 40psi.

The well pump and cistern both have their own float switch. When the cistern is low enough for the float to request water then the well pump turns on until either the well level is below the float level for the well or the cistern is full enough that the float switch turns off.

Kind of a neat setup. Not sure why it was installed with a cistern since the well provides a minimum of 7 GPM and we ran our house straight from the well for a year with no issues. But it's nice to have the cistern during fire season since I can drop a trash pump line in it and get a ton of water in a hurry.

The well pump probably runs once a day maybe once every other day depending on how much we use. The cistern pump runs every 50-60 gallons or so. We have a decent size pressure tank.

I hope this is clear enough to answer your question.


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## maple1 (Jan 5, 2018)

I dont know anything about smart meters but from reading the above NYT link it sounds like in some places it is possible to do your own monitoring of them in real time. Maybe by adding an app thru your utility or something? Maybe could be checked out? I would still get on getting a monitor though.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 5, 2018)

If you turn off the main breaker, does the meter still run?


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> If you turn off the main breaker, does the meter still run?



It does not run. But would of been fantastic if it did! Would of explained everything


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 5, 2018)

It's bizarre.  I know you've thought of it, but there was a thread similar to yours and it turned out to be a leaky well pump foot valve, or something like that.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

maple1 said:


> I dont know anything about smart meters but from reading the above NYT link it sounds like in some places it is possible to do your own monitoring of them in real time. Maybe by adding an app thru your utility or something? Maybe could be checked out? I would still get on getting a monitor though.



I will call them tomorrow and see if there is an app or something I can use. I doubt it. They are VERY far behind the times but I'll give it a shot. I talked to them about a year after we bought the house and they pretty much told me to get lost in a polite way and their meters are never the problem. They were going to charge me to check it if there was not a problem. Maybe I will get someone with better customer service skills.

When I replaced my main panel there service guy for the electric company hung out at my house for a few hours while I was working on the panel. He was waiting for service calls and kind of helping me out. When he reinstalled the meter he did some basic tests on it and said it was fine but I watched him do the tests and I don't really know how it would of told him anything.


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## Doc C (Jan 5, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> It's bizarre.  I know you've thought of it, but there was a thread similar to yours and it turned out to be a leaky well pump foot valve, or something like that.



I can hear my well pump from the house. It vibrates the pipes a small amount. Kind of nice because I can keep an eye on how often it runs. I can't hear my cistern pump though. And it was replaced last year could be a faulty pump that runs intermittently when it's not supposed to.

I am pretty sure it's something on the house side and not the meter being bad and I'm just missing it.

I almost think it's a lot of little things that are intermittent.


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## fbelec (Jan 6, 2018)

do you have a solar system installed or a tesla type house battery


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## Doc C (Jan 6, 2018)

fbelec said:


> do you have a solar system installed or a tesla type house battery



No. Solar is all but useless here. We can only see the sun for about 6 months a year and those 6 months we only get direct sun about half the day because of the trees


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## Doc C (Jan 6, 2018)

I did find one problem this morning. It seems my thermo cube that controls my heater in my pump house is not working correctly. The pump house should stay between 35 and 45 degrees and it was well over 80 degrees in it this morning. 

When we tested for amp draw it didn't show up so it must be working some times and shutting the heater kff but this could account for 700-800 kwh if it's only working part time. 

My pump house is small and insulated so the control on the heater is probably controlling it and the thermo cube is keeping power to it all the time.


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## maple1 (Jan 6, 2018)

Didn't know you had a heater in the pump house, or maybe I missed it. That could be a big kwh user, depending on things like how big & exposed & insulated or not the pump house is. And how much it's heating when it's not supposed to be.


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## Doc C (Jan 6, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Didn't know you had a heater in the pump house, or maybe I missed it. That could be a big kwh user, depending on things like how big & exposed & insulated or not the pump house is. And how much it's heating when it's not supposed to be.



After I found it I calculated it out and figured if it was running 24/7 at 1500 watts it would be over 1000kwh a month. I tested the heater and it is shutting off on its own but the thermo cube was supposed to keep it turning off at 45 degrees and not the 80 degrees or so the heater was turning off at. I estimate it's running half the time. I put in a new thermo cube and that should help. I spaced it earlier when I was through everything in the house that takes electric.

And it's a tiny pump house with good insulation. 

Now I just need to find the rest of the stuff that's taking too much electric


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## Highbeam (Jan 6, 2018)

You’re using double what you estimate. The number on your meter increases a certain amount per day(=2000/30) and you expect half that. Should be pretty easy to check it every hour to watch it climb steadily or all at once. 

This is not something small like too many lights on. Your leak is huge. Shut off the water system breakers for 4 hours and I bet you’ll see that the meter slows down to the rate you expect. (=(1000/30)*(4/24))

If it’s not the water system breakers then try another circuit until you find your pirate.


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## Doc C (Jan 6, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> You’re using double what you estimate. The number on your meter increases a certain amount per day(=2000/30) and you expect half that. Should be pretty easy to check it every hour to watch it climb steadily or all at once.
> 
> This is not something small like too many lights on. Your leak is huge. Shut off the water system breakers for 4 hours and I bet you’ll see that the meter slows down to the rate you expect. (=(1000/30)*(4/24))
> 
> If it’s not the water system breakers then try another circuit until you find your pirate.



Interesting you bring up the well pumps. My pressure guage was slowly falling. And I mean slowly! Like 2 psi every 10 minutes or so. Only problem is I can't find a leak. I don't think that's the electric problem but the pump is running more then it should.


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## maple1 (Jan 6, 2018)

That's not quite what I'd call slow. Not fast but not slow. Not sure what your cut ins and outs are but that could be around 20 extra cycles per day? A contributor.


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## Doc C (Jan 6, 2018)

maple1 said:


> That's not quite what I'd call slow. Not fast but not slow. Not sure what your cut ins and outs are but that could be around 20 extra cycles per day? A contributor.



40-60 psi pressure switch. Only thing I can think is its leaking underground.


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## semipro (Jan 6, 2018)

Doc C said:


> 40-60 psi pressure switch. Only thing I can think is its leaking underground.


The submersible pump foot valve is a likely culprit as I think someone else mentioned.


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## Highbeam (Jan 7, 2018)

To lose 2psi with a big expansion tank means a pretty big leak.


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## Doc C (Jan 7, 2018)

semipro said:


> The submersible pump foot valve is a likely culprit as I think someone else mentioned.



Because of my setup even if I had no foot valve it would only bleed 20' or water back to the well. But also if it was the foot valve I would lose my prime. 

It's 20' shallow well with a one way check valve just after the above ground well pump because of the way the cistern pump is  in line. Without the check valve the cistern pump would cause the jet pump to spin backwards. 

So when it's losing pressure it's actually losing pressure between the cistern pump and the house which has no foot valve in in that line.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 7, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> To lose 2psi with a big expansion tank means a pretty big leak.



I figure 2 psi every 10 minutes is 200 minutes for 20 psi. It would take a 20 psi swing to turn the pump on. So with zero water in the house being used the pump would come on about every 3 hours and 20 minutes. The cistern pump runs about 20 seconds when it comes on.

I don't know how to calculate the electricity usage of a 1/2 horsepower pump since I can't remember what brand it is. I am kit sure if it uses alot of power or not? I'm pretty sure it's a 110 volt pump though.

I do need to find the water leak for sure though but I don't think it's a huge power draw.


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## Ashful (Jan 7, 2018)

Doc C said:


> I figure 2 psi every 10 minutes is 200 minutes for 20 psi. It would take a 20 psi swing to turn the pump on. So with zero water in the house being used the pump would come on about every 3 hours and 20 minutes. The cistern pump runs about 20 seconds when it comes on.
> 
> I don't know how to calculate the electricity usage of a 1/2 horsepower pump since I can't remember what brand it is. I am kit sure if it uses alot of power or not? I'm pretty sure it's a 110 volt pump though.
> 
> I do need to find the water leak for sure though but I don't think it's a huge power draw.



Check your algebra, Doc.  2psi/10min = 20psi/100min, assuming linear behavior.  Double all your subsequent numbers.


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## Doc C (Jan 7, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Check your algebra, Doc.  2psi/10min = 20psi/100min, assuming linear behavior.  Double all your subsequent numbers.



What the heck! That's what I get for doing math before I get out of bed! Thanks

And math is my strong suit now you know why I type the way I do!


----------



## semipro (Jan 7, 2018)

Doc C said:


> I don't know how to calculate the electricity usage of a 1/2 horsepower pump since I can't remember what brand it is. I am kit sure if it uses alot of power or not? I'm pretty sure it's a 110 volt pump though.


You can use 746 watt/HP to estimate. The actual power use would be somewhat higher.


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## Ashful (Jan 7, 2018)

semipro said:


> You can use 746 watt/HP to estimate. The actual power use would be somewhat higher.



The FLA of a single phase induction motor is actually close to 7 amps per hp (1600 watts), due to slip and efficiency.  However, actual current draw is load dependent, and the load is varying.  Furthermore, the pump is selected to never actually hit its full load capacity, so don’t assume your 1/2 hp motor is operating at 1/2 hp load.

So, roll all of that together, and it’d be tough to nail down it’s actual draw.  Ironically, your 746 watt number might not be too far off (roughly half it’s FLA) at median pressure.

Best would be to note it’s draw around median PSI (50 psi on a 40-60 system), and use that number.


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## semipro (Jan 7, 2018)

Ashful said:


> The FLA of a single phase induction motor is actually close to 7 amps per hp (1600 watts), due to slip and efficiency.  However, actual current draw is load dependent, and the load is varying.  Furthermore, the pump is selected to never actually hit its full load capacity, so don’t assume your 1/2 hp motor is operating at 1/2 hp load.
> 
> So, roll all of that together, and it’d be tough to nail down it’s actual draw.  Ironically, your 746 watt number might not be too far off (roughly half it’s FLA) at median pressure.
> 
> Best would be to note it’s draw around median PSI (50 psi on a 40-60 system), and use that number.


Personally I rely on a clamp-on amp meter but I thought 746 would give Doc something to start with. 
I just went through replacing the sub. pump on our 500 ft. well so I'm well acquainted now with pump curves and efficiencies.  I looked into going with a variable speed pump but decided against it.  We did all the (hard) work ourselves and I did spend a fair amount of time sizing and spec'ing out the pump and motor based on actual needs rather than rules of thumb. We ended up going with a dual pressure system something like Doc's where low pressure sub. pump water feeds the ground source hp at about 20 PSI and a booster pump services everything else at about 80 PSI.


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## maple1 (Jan 7, 2018)

80? That's kinda high, for us at least. Ours is more like 20/35.


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## semipro (Jan 8, 2018)

maple1 said:


> 80? That's kinda high, for us at least. Ours is more like 20/35.


Out house is tall so to get a decent shower on the upper floor you need that kind of pressure.


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## maple1 (Jan 8, 2018)

Ours is a two story, showers on top floor.

They sure don't blast you but they do the job. Not as much goes down the drain either during those 20-30 minute sessions the kids seem to like.


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## Ashful (Jan 8, 2018)

semipro said:


> Personally I rely on a clamp-on amp meter but I thought 746 would give Doc something to start with.
> I just went through replacing the sub. pump on our 500 ft. well so I'm well acquainted now with pump curves and efficiencies.  I looked into going with a variable speed pump but decided against it.  We did all the (hard) work ourselves and I did spend a fair amount of time sizing and spec'ing out the pump and motor based on actual needs rather than rules of thumb.



You pulled a submersible pump from 500 feet yourself?  I am impressed.  I’ve done them, but never any nearly that deep!  I hope you had some buddies to tag-team that bad boy, and lots of lawn space to lay out the pipe.

Yeah, clamp-on ammeter is the only way to go, on these things.  Like stoves, every install is different.


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## Highbeam (Jan 8, 2018)

Even 200’ of pipe, full of water, is heavy. Lots of guys to help.


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## Marshy (Jan 8, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> Even 200’ of pipe, full of water, is heavy. Lots of guys to help.


I've done 400'. Not a fun day. Would be worse if it was winter.


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## jetsam (Jan 8, 2018)

Doc C said:


> I am on track to use approximately 2076 KWH this month! I used 1936 KWH last month.
> 
> This is making no sense at all! This month I have intentionally used less electric then last month. We have lived in an almost dark house. And we have not used any fans. I even have the fan between my floors for heat movement turned off and just letting the heat from the wood stove naturally go upstairs.
> 
> ...



If the freezer is very low on coolant and running 24x7, 1000w x 720 hours = 720kwh.

Do you have one of those kill-a-watt things? They're great to check load over time right at the outlet.


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## Highbeam (Jan 8, 2018)

I left the kill-a-watt on my freezer and found the running watts closer to 100 watts and it ran less than 50% of the time. Only if the defrost heater is stuck on would you ever see 1000 Watts!


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## jetsam (Jan 8, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> I left the kill-a-watt on my freezer and found the running watts closer to 100 watts and it ran less than 50% of the time. Only if the defrost heater is stuck on would you ever see 1000 Watts!



Maybe it's a big ass freezer from 1950! Those old compressors had high draws, and often no duty cycle/thermal protection.


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## Doc C (Jan 8, 2018)

jetsam said:


> Maybe it's a big ass freezer from 1950! Those old compressors had high draws, and often no duty cycle/thermal protection.



LOL. It's a new freezer. Probably 2 years old. I tested it last winter with the kill-a-watt and it was fine. Can't remember the numbers


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## Highbeam (Jan 8, 2018)

Doc C said:


> LOL. It's a new freezer. Probably 2 years old. I tested it last winter with the kill-a-watt and it was fine. Can't remember the numbers



I was surprised how cheaply modern (20years or less) refrigeration equipment runs.


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## jetsam (Jan 8, 2018)

Maybe it's a 2 year old freezer that the neighbor has spliced into to power his garage full of refrigerators!

Say, do you live near Ashful?


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## Ashful (Jan 8, 2018)

jetsam said:


> Maybe it's a 2 year old freezer that the neighbor has spliced into to power his garage full of refrigerators!
> 
> Say, do you live near Ashful?


Shh... you're going to blow my free ride.


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## Dobish (Jan 8, 2018)

for a low price, you could have someone install it!


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## jetsam (Jan 8, 2018)

They want $1353.59 when I look at it. 

If you click on the installation link, it says that the service you're buying is meter pan replacement.


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## Dobish (Jan 9, 2018)

jetsam said:


> They want $1353.59 when I look at it.
> 
> If you click on the installation link, it says that the service you're buying is meter pan replacement.


i know. its nuts that they even have this as an option!


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## jetsam (Jan 9, 2018)

Dobish said:


> i know. its nuts that they even have this as an option!



My guess is: It's a legitimate service where they subcontract an electrician to replace your meter and meter pan.  It's there because an algorithm picked out the phrase "POWER METER" from the item's name, and flagged it as a thing that many people use electricians for based on that.  I bet if you look at other kill-a-watt style units that don't have "POWER METER" in the name, they won't have the install option.


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## lml999 (Jan 9, 2018)

Do you have a refrigerator in the garage or other unheated space?


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## Doc C (Jan 9, 2018)

lml999 said:


> Do you have a refrigerator in the garage or other unheated space?



I have a deep freezer in the garage. I tested it with a meter during the winter and at least when I tested it is was within the usage range of what the manufacturer claimed it should be.


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## Doc C (Jan 9, 2018)

I have Avista who is the electric company coming out to test the meter. Hopefully in the next couple days.


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## Ashful (Jan 9, 2018)

Doc C said:


> I have a deep freezer in the garage. I tested it with a meter during the winter and at least when I tested it is was within the usage range of what the manufacturer claimed it should be.



You may want to test it when it’s super cold, like at dawn on your coldest nights.  Freezers, especially newer ones, can get into a situation where the small amount of refrigerant with which they’re charged all pools in the condenser.  The result of this is that when the freezer calls for cooling, the compressor runs, but has nothing to compress, and this eventually results in producing a lot of heat.  The heat ends up being transmitted to the evaporator, and causing the inside of your freezer to become hotter than the outside.  I’ve seen this happen on two of my own refrigerators, back when I used to let my garage get cold.

Older refrigerators do better, with this particular problem, as they’re typically charged with a larger volume of refrigerant.


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## Doc C (Jan 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> You may want to test it when it’s super cold, like at dawn on your coldest nights.  Freezers, especially newer ones, can get into a situation where the small amount of refrigerant with which they’re charged all pools in the condenser.  The result of this is that when the freezer calls for cooling, the compressor runs, but has nothing to compress, and this eventually results in producing a lot of heat.  The heat ends up being transmitted to the evaporator, and causing the inside of your freezer to become hotter than the outside.  I’ve seen this happen on two of my own refrigerators, back when I used to let my garage get cold.
> 
> Older refrigerators do better, with this particular problem, as they’re typically charged with a larger volume of refrigerant.



I had a fridge do that on the deck. It got warm and humid inside it.

But wouldn't the food in the freezer thaw out and make me sick if the freezer was doing it?


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## Ashful (Jan 9, 2018)

Doc C said:


> I had a fridge do that on the deck. It got warm and humid inside it.
> 
> But wouldn't the food in the freezer thaw out and make me sick if the freezer was doing it?


One would think, yes... but who knows?  We're grasping at straws here, man!


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## Doc C (Jan 9, 2018)

Ashful said:


> One would think, yes... but who knows?  We're grasping at straws here, man!



Grasping at straws is what I have been doing for 2 years! They have been expensive straws!


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## velvetfoot (Jan 9, 2018)

I'm expecting a solution soon.  
This thread is dragging on too long!


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## saewoody (Jan 9, 2018)

Thanks for the update, Doc. I’m really curious what the electric company says. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## maple1 (Jan 9, 2018)

Did you order a monitor yet?


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 9, 2018)

Im jumping in late here but something is radically wrong here.
I have more appliances than you and use way less power
I have 3 Refrigerators going ............You have 1
Also a deep freeze
4 Big Sc  TVs going .............................You have 1
4 person household ......................... You have 2
50 Gallon WH
3 computers going    
Electric bathroom heaters.
Washer going daily
Electric Dryer going  daily
I use about 1000 KWH a month sometimes less .  Bill runs about  $100 a month.   Same usage year round.


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## Doc C (Jan 9, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Did you order a monitor yet?



No. I've been using my meters that I have. I should order one. Just really hoping that the electric company meter is bad.

If it's not then I'm going to have to order the monitor.


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## Doc C (Jan 9, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Im jumping in late here but something is radically wrong here.
> I have more appliances than you and use way less power
> I have 3 Refrigerators going      You have 1
> Also a deep freeze
> ...



WOW! 

I have a dishwasher. I went through today and checked every light bulb. All of them are 5.3 watts or less. And I do not have a whole lot of them. 

My house is 1965 square feet roughly but it's really compact 2 story. A 13nc heats the whole house even in the coldest weather. My house feels more like a 1500 square foot house.

I'm pretty sure that the electric company is going to owe me a lot of money after they change my meter.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 9, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> I'm expecting a solution soon.
> This thread is dragging on too long!



This is going to be an epic thread on all things to try when your electric bill is too high! Maybe


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## Ashful (Jan 9, 2018)

Doc C said:


> I'm pretty sure that the electric company is going to owe me a lot of money after they change my meter.


Bird in the hand... how are you going to work out what is owed?


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## maple1 (Jan 10, 2018)

Doc C said:


> No. I've been using my meters that I have. I should order one. Just really hoping that the electric company meter is bad.
> 
> If it's not then I'm going to have to order the monitor.



I would get one anyway, regardless. Don't wait any longer. Just think, you could have had one for a while now & had your problem figured out if you'd gotten one when first suggested. 

I got one, just to see if I could cut my bill or to see where my juice was going, even though it wasn't outrageous to start with. Watching the monitor while I turned my office 4' flourescent light fixtures off & on was a real eye opener.

Then if you keep an eye on it, you could also tell when something goes wonky. I can glance at mine most any time - if it's higher than it should be, I go for a little walk & look & listen. And usually see that my fridge is cycling, as it should be. I just glanced at it, 460 watts. All OK. I would really really be wanting one, if I couldn't plainly hear my water pump running when it does - it uses big juice when it runs, and it doesn't take much of a water leak to make it cycle a lot. Like, a little dirt under a toilet flapper. Or a weeping foot valve. Or a hung up toilet flush - seems I am the only one in the house that can tell when that has happened.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2018)

Doc C said:


> WOW!
> 
> I have a dishwasher. I went through today and checked every light bulb. All of them are 5.3 watts or less. And I do not have a whole lot of them.
> r.


I did nt list every appliance but yes,
have a dishwasher that runs daily sometimes twice. Electric Stove too the runs daily.
Its got to be your meter. Anything drawing THAT much power its not supposed to would be starting a fire by now.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 10, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Bird in the hand... how are you going to work out what is owed?



The old discount tire commercial comes to mind. But in all seriousness I am not sure how


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2018)

DId i mention you could see my place from space at Xmas time ,the whole month of Dec. Thousands of Xmas lights. Didnt do much to the Bill Added about $25 to $30 . Mostly LED.


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## Doc C (Jan 10, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> DId i mention you could see my place from space at Xmas time ,the whole month of Dec. Thousands of Xmas lights. Didnt do much to the Bill Added about $25 to $30 . Mostly LED.



We don't use Xmas lights really. I have 1 string that stays up year round for light on the covered deck and it's led.

Ally lights are led in my house and garage. Our house is hidden from people so I do not ever feel the need to decorate.


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## Ashful (Jan 10, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> I did nt list every appliance but yes, have a dishwasher that runs daily sometimes twice. Electric Stove too the runs daily.



You only have one dishwasher?  Seriously?

... and just ONE stove?  ;-)


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2018)

Ashful said:


> You only have one dishwasher?  Seriously?
> 
> ... and just ONE stove?  ;-)


One electric stove as opposed to a gas stove. But 2 clothes washers.  And i forgot a rice cooker that works overtime .2 of the refrigerators are in the bar, just beer and overflow. 
 Not exactly a "green" lifestyle .


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## Dobish (Jan 10, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> One electric stove as opposed to a gas stove. But 2 clothes washers.  And i forgot a rice cooker that works overtime .2 of the refrigerators are in the bar, just beer and overflow.
> Not exactly a "green" lifestyle .


we have the double oven, but we only use the lower one when my mom is in town (because she's short!).


----------



## semipro (Jan 10, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Not exactly a "green" lifestyle .


Sounds like fun one though.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2018)

Unless that Well pump is using 2000KWH a month your meter is messed up.


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## fbelec (Jan 10, 2018)

funny thing about the well pump i have a customer that call me into look at something and after that starts asking me what could cause the electric bill to be so high she says i have the same house as my neighbor same amount of people and she went down the list. she had the electric company down twice and nothing until i walked around the house and asked her why is there water coming from around the well head. she said i don't know but the garden has been really green along with the grass. it was her well pump adding money to her bill


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## Seasoned Oak (Jan 10, 2018)

I guess if you had a loose connection or a leak of some kind that darn thing could run constantly.


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## velvetfoot (Jan 11, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Bird in the hand... how are you going to work out what is owed?


The state public service commission might help if it comes down o that.


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## Doc C (Jan 11, 2018)

I just talked to the meter testing guy. He will be here in the morning and he's going to bring hourly print outs to see if we can narrow this down


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## velvetfoot (Jan 11, 2018)

He's bringing historical hourly printouts extracted from the meter?


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## Doc C (Jan 11, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> He's bringing historical hourly printouts extracted from the meter?



That is what he claims. He said he would bring the last couple months worth of hourly readouts.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 11, 2018)

Have you asked them yet about being able to access data at home?


----------



## Doc C (Jan 11, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Have you asked them yet about being able to access data at home?



I have not. I am going to ask him tomorrow. The lady on the phone didn't really know much


----------



## semipro (Jan 12, 2018)

Ashful said:


> You pulled a submersible pump from 500 feet yourself?  I am impressed.  I’ve done them, but never any nearly that deep!  I hope you had some buddies to tag-team that bad boy, and lots of lawn space to lay out the pipe.
> 
> Yeah, clamp-on ammeter is the only way to go, on these things.  Like stoves, every install is different.


Photos attached or it didn't happen 
The pipe was 20' sections of PVC.  At our depths, black poly was out of spec as far as tensile strength or I would have gone back with that.  We built a tripod out of old soccer goal parts, attached a pulley at the top and pulled it with a winch attached to the back of our tractor.  I also paid $150 for a well pipe clamp (the orange thing) but it was well worth it.  I used a section of climbing webbing with a Prusik knot on the end of the cable to lift the pipe.  I should have invested in a metal "elevator" to attach the cable to the pipe (last photo) I also put a camera down the well to the bottom of the casing to check for any perforations or leakage at the casing/formation interface.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

The electric company came out and tested the meter. It is off a little bit charging us too much.

Not nearly enough to explain the issue.

He put a monitor in place for the next week or so.

Also the hourly report shows huge spike of around 5kw per hour on occasion. And alot of them are when we are sleeping.

I had one day where we used over 10kw in one hour! Holy crap!


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 12, 2018)

It's documented now.  A little more sleuthing and you'll have it!


----------



## Dobish (Jan 12, 2018)

Doc C said:


> The electric company came out and tested the meter. It is off a little bit charging us too much.
> 
> Not nearly enough to explain the issue.
> 
> ...


is Ashful running a welder from your garage while you sleep?


----------



## maple1 (Jan 12, 2018)

Get that monitor of your own ordered. His will only be there a short time & you likely won't be able to use it to its potential. Unless it is monitoring each individual circuit.

Does the one he left have a display you can watch? From the panel? If so watch it like a hawk, and when you see a spike shut circuits off until you find the one that makes the spike stop.

This is like a mystery novel - waiting to turn the next page, lol.

EDIT: would be even better if the monitor (either his or the one you are going to get) had an alarm on it you could set to alarm on a spike.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Get that monitor of your own ordered. His will only be there a short time & you likely won't be able to use it to its potential. Unless it is monitoring each individual circuit.
> 
> Does the one he left have a display you can watch? From the panel? If so watch it like a hawk, and when you see a spike shut circuits off until you find the one that makes the spike stop.
> 
> ...



It does not have a display. He said he can tell what is causing it based on the report he will get next week based on 120 ir 240 and how much is being drawn in what period of time.


----------



## semipro (Jan 12, 2018)

Doc C said:


> The electric company came out and tested the meter. It is off a little bit charging us too much.
> 
> Not nearly enough to explain the issue.
> 
> ...


A load like that almost has to be some sort of electric resistive heat or something that would make some noise like a compressor.  If you use hot water at night it may be your water heater.  An electric water heater is about 4500 watts. 
We had a somewhat similar situation where one of the controls on our electrical backup heat for our central furnace went bad.  I only found it when I noticed heat coming from one of our floor vents when the HVAC was not running.


----------



## redmanlcs (Jan 12, 2018)

I got it!... someone has tapped into your power!.. someone is using your electric to heat their home!.. probably dug up or tapped into your power after the meter.. probably dug it underground and hooked it up without you knowing!


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## maple1 (Jan 12, 2018)

semipro said:


> A load like that almost has to be some sort of electric resistive heat or something that would make some noise like a compressor.  If you use hot water at night it may be your water heater.  An electric water heater is about 4500 watts.
> We had a somewhat similar situation where one of the controls on our electrical backup heat for our central furnace went bad.  I only found it when I noticed heat coming from one of our floor vents when the HVAC was not running.



5000 watts made me think water heater also. The curiosity is killing me. If I was closer, I would yank my monitor out and bring it on over for a while.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 12, 2018)

Another thought - how long have you lived in this place?

Just wondering if an electric heater was wired in on a circuit that you think it isn't, and they aren't really all turned off. An electric heater being on all winter when thinking they were all off would fit the bill also.


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## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

My water heater is new....so it definately could be the problem! New always stands for never ever worked in my mind.


----------



## sloeffle (Jan 12, 2018)

Doc C said:


> Also the hourly report shows huge spike of around 5kw per hour on occasion. And alot of them are when we are sleeping.
> 
> I had one day where we used over 10kw in one hour! Holy crap!


5kW in an hour has to be something that is 240 volts. Not unless you have multiple things pulling 20 amps each at 120 volts. Personally I’d start with turning the well pumps or your water heater if it is electric off for a night or two and see what happens.

Our house is all electric and in the winter time on average, we use between 30 - 60kWh a day in usage.


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## maple1 (Jan 12, 2018)

We're at 20kwh/day, year round.

A couple more in non-heating seasons when using the electric DHW heater, a couple less the rest of the year. All electric appliances.

EDIT: If we had to use our electric back up boiler to actually heat the house full time, that would be an extra 150 kwh/day, +/-. Which would be firmly into yikes territory.


----------



## Seasoned Oak (Jan 12, 2018)

Something using 10,000 watts in1 hour. Only thing that can use that much  would be a stove or some type of heater. Even water heater only uses 4500.


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## maple1 (Jan 12, 2018)

There could also still be something wrong with the meter, I think. Making it go intermittently wonky?


----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

Seasoned Oak said:


> Something using 10,000 watts in1 hour. Only thing that can use that much  would be a stove or some type of heater. Even water heater only uses 4500.



My stove is gas. And I looked at the report again. One hour spiked over 13.5kwh

It's not the well pump. I can hear the well pump when it runs.


----------



## Ashful (Jan 12, 2018)

I'm not sure how you run a house on 20 kWh per day, I think the lowest bill I've ever seen here is 1500 kW for the month.  With the exception of two small minisplits keeping two small spaces at 62F and 55F (260 and 1200 sq.ft., respectively), our heat and hot water are all on an oil-fired boiler.

We just got our usual monthly nag-gram from PECO this morning, and it's showing us at 85 - 90 kWh:







This usage was December, so a few extra days in the shop (minisplit) over the holiday week and Christmas lights bumped us up almost 1000 kWh from our usual monthly usage.  Still... 20 kWh per day?  Do you use a candle for light, and wash your clothes on rocks down at the river?


----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

maple1 said:


> There could also still be something wrong with the meter, I think. Making it go intermittently wonky?



Here's the interesting thing. For the last 2 months I have been running between 46 and 92 kwh per day.

The last 4 days since I called the electric company I have been running 25 and 36 kwh per day.

Figure that one out!


----------



## Ashful (Jan 12, 2018)

Doc C said:


> My stove is gas. And I looked at the report again. One hour spiked over 13.5kwh
> 
> It's not the well pump. I can hear the well pump when it runs.


Even if that load were running all 60.0 minutes of that hour, you're looking at 58 amps on a 230V circuit.  Obviously, and frighteningly, double that on 115V.  More importantly, from it's intermittent nature, we can safely assume it's running some smaller fraction of that hour... so you're likely looking for a 100 amp load.  At that point, unless you have a transformer just yards from your panel, you'd think you'd be seeing lights dim on a 200 amp main.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)




----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

That is since 12/15 I believe.


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## maple1 (Jan 12, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I'm not sure how you run a house on 20 kWh per day, I think the lowest bill I've ever seen here is 1500 kW for the month.  With the exception of two small minisplits keeping two small spaces at 62F and 55F (260 and 1200 sq.ft., respectively), our heat and hot water are all on an oil-fired boiler.
> 
> We just got our usual monthly nag-gram from PECO this morning, and it's showing us at 85 - 90 kWh:
> 
> ...



Not sure what to say, but it's been consistently that for years. No candles, no river washing. Maybe our meter is treating us right.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 12, 2018)

We're a little more than 300 kwh/mo.

With that printout, at a low 28 kwh/day, it comes to 868 kwh.mo., which is still way high.
It seems like there's a constant drain-not just spikes, anyway.


----------



## maple1 (Jan 12, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> We're a little more than 300 kwh/mo.
> 
> With that printout, at a low 28 kwh/day, it comes to 868 kwh.mo., which is still way high.
> It seems like there's a constant drain-not just spikes, anyway.



Jeez you're at 10kwh/day. You must be on candles and doing laundry in the river, plus doing all your dishes and bathing there too and cooking on a campfire.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> We're a little more than 300 kwh/mo.
> 
> With that printout, at a low 28 kwh/day, it comes to 868 kwh.mo., which is still way high.
> It seems like there's a constant drain-not just spikes, anyway.



You will notice the day that has 28 kwh I believe alot of the day says NA.

Snowstorm dropped the power line across our driveway and we had no power for a day or so.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 12, 2018)

Ashful said:


> Even if that load were running all 60.0 minutes of that hour, you're looking at 58 amps on a 230V circuit.  Obviously, and frighteningly, double that on 115V.  More importantly, from it's intermittent nature, we can safely assume it's running some smaller fraction of that hour... so you're likely looking for a 100 amp load.  At that point, unless you have a transformer just yards from your panel, you'd think you'd be seeing lights dim on a 200 amp main.



No dimming lights or anything. With our old zinsco panel the lights would just about shut off if I flushed the toilet or sneezed!

The new square D panel and new ground rods and new SER Cable for the main solved all those issues.


----------



## Ashful (Jan 13, 2018)

Doc C said:


> No dimming lights or anything. With our old zinsco panel the lights would just about shut off if I flushed the toilet or sneezed!
> 
> The new square D panel and new ground rods and new SER Cable for the main solved all those issues.



I was in a rush, so I didn’t fully-articulate my point, although that was also before you posted your actual usage timetables.  You have a base load somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 kW.  In those hours showing 10k - 12kW, that differential 8k - 10kW jump is probably not spread evenly over the full 60 minutes of the hour.  Just applying the law of averages, which is still likely conservative, you have more like a 20kW jump from your base load, over a span of 30 minutes.

When talking those sort of differentials, one would expect to see dims and surges over a main of any length, independent of the quality of the panel at the end of those mains.  A 20 kW differential is a 90 amp change in your load, or your base load jumping from 10 amps to 100 amps.  That is substantial.

Now, you’ve posted your timetables, and they don’t completely agree with my assumptions.  Those days showing 10kW and 12kW single hours seem to have much higher base load, thru most of the day, no?  I’m viewing on a phone, so maybe did not get as complete a view of them as I should.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 13, 2018)

Ashful said:


> I was in a rush, so I didn’t fully-articulate my point, although that was also before you posted your actual usage timetables.  You have a base load somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 kW.  In those hours showing 10k - 12kW, that differential 8k - 10kW jump is probably not spread evenly over the full 60 minutes of the hour.  Just applying the law of averages, which is still likely conservative, you have more like a 20kW jump from your base load, over a span of 30 minutes.
> 
> When talking those sort of differentials, one would expect to see dims and surges over a main of any length, independent of the quality of the panel at the end of those mains.  A 20 kW differential is a 90 amp change in your load, or your base load jumping from 10 amps to 100 amps.  That is substantial.
> 
> Now, you’ve posted your timetables, and they don’t completely agree with my assumptions.  Those days showing 10kW and 12kW single hours seem to have much higher base load, thru most of the day, no?  I’m viewing on a phone, so maybe did not get as complete a view of them as I should.



And my photo of a piece of paper sucks to begin with! It was the best I could do.

I think you are on track with what you are seeing.


----------



## OhioBurner© (Jan 18, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Not sure what to say, but it's been consistently that for years. No candles, no river washing. Maybe our meter is treating us right.



I average right around 20kWh/day ~600/mo and could still curtail my electric usage substantially... I have an old cheapie electric water heater, a second freezer (just a old inexpensive craigslist find), electric oven and range, and plenty of incandescent lights still and forget to shut the computer off often, 4-6 fans running on this house all heating season to attempt to circulate the heat in this ill-designed house. Only 1.5 living here though.


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## maple1 (Jan 18, 2018)

Yes, my desktop computer is running pretty well 24/7.

I know we could knock ours down too, by getting newer appliances. I have heard that 20 year old washers, dryers & refrigerators aren't very energy efficient compared to the newer stuff. All ours are getting long in the tooth (including dishwasher), 22 years old now.


----------



## velvetfoot (Jan 18, 2018)

maple1 said:


> Yes, my desktop computer is running pretty well 24/7.
> 
> I know we could knock ours down too, by getting newer appliances. I have heard that 20 year old washers, dryers & refrigerators aren't very energy efficient compared to the newer stuff. All ours are getting long in the tooth (including dishwasher), 22 years old now.



Or.......you could buy a new Froling.


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## Doc C (Jan 18, 2018)

So our meter was read on the 16th. I have been tracking the last 2 days. 

The first day we used 35kwh 
The second day we used 31.5kwh 

We have not changed anything in the house. The only thing that has been changed is the electric company put a monitor on the meter. It is between the meter our breaker panel. 

I am getting the numbers off the meter not the monitor.

At this rate of usage we will be around 950kwh hours for the month. 

I’m not sure how our usage came down more then half?!?!

I’ll keep tracking and see if there is a huge spike one day.


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## maple1 (Jan 18, 2018)

If you had your own monitor, you could watch the consumption in real time, and turn each breaker off & see exactly what circuits are using how much electricity. Even the 35kwh/day still seems high to me, based on what you said you had that uses electricity. Likely pumping all your water twice would have some effect, but you're still at almost 2x my (and others) consumption and I'm not really picking out what that could be from.


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## Marshy (Jan 18, 2018)

Maybe the freezer defrost cycle?
Is anyone in the house a sleep walker? Maybe they go and stand in front of the fridge with it open? lol!
Or maybe they do some night time sleep welding? 

Doc, you have and heat tape on piping?


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## velvetfoot (Jan 18, 2018)

35 kwh/day for this setup still seems high to me as well.


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## Doc C (Jan 18, 2018)

Marshy said:


> Maybe the freezer defrost cycle?
> Is anyone in the house a sleep walker? Maybe they go and stand in front of the fridge with it open? lol!
> Or maybe they do some night time sleep welding?
> 
> Doc, you have and heat tape on piping?



Sometimes I sleep walk but I don’t leave the bedroom usually.


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## Doc C (Jan 18, 2018)

velvetfoot said:


> 35 kwh/day for this setup still seems high to me as well.



I find it strange as soon as the electric company touches the meter my use comes a lot closer in line with where it should be.

I’m inclined to believe something is going on.


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## moey (Jan 18, 2018)

Thats (35 kw per day ) is close to what we use in the summer months. 2 kids 2 adults no deep freeze although we do run our A/C in the summer. Ok still sounds a little high.


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## sloeffle (Jan 18, 2018)

I’d take that during winter months. I use 10kWh a day just to keep water ice free for animals. Was tired of feeding the wood furnace a few weeks ago, so I fired up the geo. We hit 76kWh one day.

It is just money, they will print more.


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## Doc C (Jan 23, 2018)

The electric company guy and I reviewed the report for the last 10 days or so.

The hot water heater is running for about 2 hours at a time.

The well pump is spiking to 51 amps every time it comes on. And it runs for about 10 minutes, shuts off for 5 minutes, turns on for 10 minutes and it does this for about an hour on average


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## moey (Jan 23, 2018)

The 51 amps is probably a instantaneous draw electric motors do that. 

I'm confused by your other statements. I assume you felt they were important thats why you mentioned them.  In a 24 hour period how much does the electric water heater run as well as the well pump?


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## Doc C (Jan 23, 2018)

moey said:


> The 51 amps is probably a instantaneous draw electric motors do that.
> 
> I'm confused by your other statements. I assume you felt they were important thats why you mentioned them.  In a 24 hour period how much does the electric water heater run as well as the well pump?



The electric guy said that normally a hot water heater will run around 15 to 30 minutes at a time. He was thinking an element could be bad.

The hotbwater heater will run around 2 hours if we take a shower. Other wise it will come on about 20 minutes every 2 hours roughly.


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## Highbeam (Jan 23, 2018)

Doc C said:


> The electric guy said that normally a hot water heater will run around 15 to 30 minutes at a time. He was thinking an element could be bad.
> 
> The hotbwater heater will run around 2 hours if we take a shower. Other wise it will come on about 20 minutes every 2 hours roughly.



The electric water heater isn’t it. It’s just a resistance element, if it’s on its heating. There is no way for it to run too often or too little. That energy is heating water. 

The well pump turning on and off Is more troubling. It shouldn’t turn off until it is told to.


----------



## Doc C (Jan 23, 2018)

Highbeam said:


> The electric water heater isn’t it. It’s just a resistance element, if it’s on its heating. There is no way for it to run too often or too little. That energy is heating water.
> 
> The well pump turning on and off Is more troubling. It shouldn’t turn off until it is told to.



The well pump is on a float switch to fill a cistern. What is happening is the water level goes down and the float switch tells the pump to turn off and stop filling the cistern. Then the well recovers and the pump turns back on.

I think what the elect guy was concerned about was the 51 amp draw


----------



## fbelec (Jan 24, 2018)

51 amps is ok because it's a high torque motor it probably settles to 7 to 10 amps or it would blow your breaker after about 5 seconds. if you had a bad bottom element you would get 5 mins of hot water then cold if you had a bad top element you would not get any hot water out of it the bottom element does not come on until the top element has satisfied the top section of the tank


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## CaptSpiff (Jan 24, 2018)

Doc C said:


> The electric guy said that normally a hot water heater will run around 15 to 30 minutes at a time. He was thinking an element could be bad.
> 
> The hot water heater will run around 2 hours if we take a shower. Other wise it will come on about 20 minutes every 2 hours roughly.



Your tank style Water Heater should not be coming ON for 20 minutes every 2 hours. That means your Heater is in a super cold basement, or the water is migrating and you need to install a heat trap.
Also, the recovery on any tank style Water Heater is not 2 hours. Once the water draw of the shower is done, it should take all of 15-20 minutes for the Water Heater to recover to full temp.


----------



## moey (Jan 24, 2018)

Even with a bad element the electric draw would not be more if anything it would be less your only heating half the tank. The recovery time would be more and you may end up with a cold shower faster as only half the tank would heat. You may want to investigate the electric tank more but I dont think a bad element would cause massive increased electric consumption.


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## jetsam (Jan 24, 2018)

moey said:


> Even with a bad element the electric draw would not be more if anything it would be less your only heating half the tank. The recovery time would be more and you may end up with a cold shower faster as only half the tank would heat. You may want to investigate the electric tank more but I dont think a bad element would cause massive increased electric consumption.



Heavy corrosion creating a high-resistance path to ground is possible.  Put an ammeter on the line to the water heater and/or check the voltage between the water pipes and the panel ground bar.

Not likely but I've seen stranger.


----------



## drz1050 (Jan 24, 2018)

That water heater is taking way too long to recover, I'd pull both elements and check them out... also check the thermostat, but those rarely go bad.  The elements are probably corroded. New ones aren't that much, you just need a special tool (deep socket) to remove/ replace them. Tools and elements are available at any hardware store.

To add: each element has its own thermostat, check both and make sure they're set to the same temp.

How much water do you use a day? That well pump is cycling crazy often. I'd pull that too and check for partial clogs.


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## fbelec (Jan 25, 2018)

if your elements have a lot of buildup on them they will get to hot and fracture which will blow the breaker. if your tank ran a 2 hour time it would probably blow up if the relief valve did not already blow off. 30 gal about 15 minute recovery 50 about 20 minute and if you have the rear 120 gal it would be about 45 minutes.


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## Centurion (Jan 25, 2018)

Doc C said:


> Right. If you look at Feb it was like 3300ish.
> 
> Appliances that we have:
> TV (1)
> ...





Doc C said:


> I am looking for ideas as to why electric usage increases in the winter?
> 
> In my case my electric use is doubled comparing June to November just looking strictly at KW usage because our wonderful electric company raises rates in the winter. So total bill dollar amount is more then double comparing the months.
> 
> ...


----------



## Centurion (Jan 25, 2018)

Doc C said:


> I am looking for ideas as to why electric usage increases in the winter?
> 
> In my case my electric use is doubled comparing June to November just looking strictly at KW usage because our wonderful electric company raises rates in the winter. So total bill dollar amount is more then double comparing the months.
> 
> ...



I would call either an electrician or your power company and have them come to your home and check for possible current leaks.  Have them monitor the current flow at the circuit breaker panel and turn off each breaker, one by one, to see if any one circuit is drawing a lot more current than expected.  Obviously, when all the breakers are off you should have no current being used unless you have an auxiliary line going out to another building.  I believe this is your best bet for tracking down your high electrical usage.  Good luck!


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## Ashful (Jan 25, 2018)

fbelec said:


> 51 amps is ok because it's a high torque motor it probably settles to 7 to 10 amps or it would blow your breaker after about 5 seconds.


This really depends on how it’s measured.  While a fractional-HP motor can easily hit these numbers for a few milliseconds at start-up, the time constants are usually so brief they’re missed by the typical RMS ammeter.  If you’re seeing 51 amps on an Amprobe style ammeter, that’s really something for a little well pump motor, I would think.  I’m used to seeing numbers close to that on 3 HP motors with fairly high starting torque loads, as the ammeter is averaging over a longer time constant the the endurance of the big inrush numbers.

Either way, a few milliseconds of inrush current is not the reason for the high utility bill, but that few hours of cycling on/off is too suspicious.


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## fbelec (Jan 26, 2018)

Ashful said:


> This really depends on how it’s measured.  While a fractional-HP motor can easily hit these numbers for a few milliseconds at start-up, the time constants are usually so brief they’re missed by the typical RMS ammeter.  If you’re seeing 51 amps on an Amprobe style ammeter, that’s really something for a little well pump motor, I would think.  I’m used to seeing numbers close to that on 3 HP motors with fairly high starting torque loads, as the ammeter is averaging over a longer time constant the the endurance of the big inrush numbers.
> 
> Either way, a few milliseconds of inrush current is not the reason for the high utility bill, but that few hours of cycling on/off is too suspicious.


i'm talking about the circuit breaker which is most likely a 2 pole 20. if it were running 51 amps constant it would blow the breaker. unless the breaker got wet and might not want to blow. anyway if you have a well pump and it's drawing 51 amps the motor is junk


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## fbelec (Jan 26, 2018)

51 constant amps


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## Ashful (Jan 26, 2018)

fbelec said:


> 51 constant amps



That would be a serious issue, 51 amps at 230 volts is 10 HP class stuff.  Most well pumps (1/2 hp to 1.0 hp) would be 5 - 8 amps FLA at 230 volts.

But that’s not how I read this, I think he meant inrush:



Doc C said:


> The well pump is spiking to 51 amps every time it comes on.


I’d think that if it held 51 amps for any period, it would trip the breaker (usually 15 or 20 amp) after 20–30 seconds, or burn thru the run windings on the motor.


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## moey (Jan 26, 2018)

Ashful said:


> That would be a serious issue, 51 amps at 230 volts is 10 HP class stuff.  Most well pumps (1/2 hp to 1.0 hp) would be 5 - 8 amps FLA at 230 volts.
> 
> But that’s not how I read this, I think he meant inrush:
> 
> ...



The windings would burn out. The breaker would trip. The wire would start a fire. The possibilities are endless. I'm sure the 51 amps is a startup surge although I am surprised the meter detected it.


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## burnham (Jan 27, 2018)

Are you running a dehumidifier?


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## fbelec (Jan 27, 2018)

this is enough to drive you nuts. and the bad thing is it's not easy to figure. i like the old meters the power company used to use with the dials. nobody knows what else the electronic board inside the digital meters do beside help a guy driving by get the customers usage


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## Brian26 (Jan 27, 2018)

fbelec said:


> this is enough to drive you nuts. and the bad thing is it's not easy to figure. i like the old meters the power company used to use with the dials. nobody knows what else the electronic board inside the digital meters do beside help a guy driving by get the customers usage



Install your own power meter that is 99% accurate and be done with it. I have this one installed that measures phase angle and is extremely accurate. I have solar panels and monitor my usage/consumption and this unit is dead on with my meter. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GR2XJMQ/?tag=hearthamazon-20


Displays in kilowatts based on true power consumption reaching 99% accuracy
It follows the utility voltage and measures phase angle to compensate for power factor in real time.
Improved incremental stepping on the voltage, costs, carbon emissions and alarm
Suitable for Solar Installations.


----------



## Highbeam (Jan 27, 2018)

fbelec said:


> if your elements have a lot of buildup on them they will get to hot and fracture which will blow the breaker. if your tank ran a 2 hour time it would probably blow up if the relief valve did not already blow off. 30 gal about 15 minute recovery 50 about 20 minute and if you have the rear 120 gal it would be about 45 minutes.



A thought... plumbing leak after the water heater. This would cause the excessive well pump cycling as well as long cycles on the water heater.


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## fbelec (Jan 28, 2018)

brian that is a lot cheaper than i expected to see. question. if that meter said that there was a difference between your meter and the utility what would be the out come with the power company? have you had this happen?


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## Brian26 (Jan 28, 2018)

fbelec said:


> brian that is a lot cheaper than i expected to see. question. if that meter said that there was a difference between your meter and the utility what would be the out come with the power company? have you had this happen?



Not sure as I have solar panels and installed the meter just to monitor my consumption. It matched right up to my NET electric meter.  The sensor comes with a battery powered monitor that displays your instant electric usage.


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## Ashful (Jan 28, 2018)

Brian26 said:


> Not sure as I have solar panels and installed the meter just to monitor my consumption. It matched right up to my NET electric meter.  The sensor comes with a battery powered monitor that displays your instant electric usage.



Maybe it’s just reading from the NET meter.  [emoji12]


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## WES999 (Feb 11, 2018)

A little OT but related, a coworker just bought a house ( about 15 years old), all electric, electric baseboard heat.
Just got his bill for a month, are you sitting down, about $1700. He is now looking to put in a gas furnace.


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## firefighterjake (Feb 11, 2018)

Just paid last month's electric bill: $100 and change . . . and that's with two college-aged students now living with us. 

I was a bit surprised, especially since a lot of folks have said their electric bills saw a huge jump this last month.


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## woodgeek (Feb 25, 2018)

Wow guys.  Thanks for the long read!  Who needs mystery novels.  

I am voting for the water heater (cycling every two hours is crazy) or (maybe) the well pump.

If the OP still has the recording meter in place, switch off the HWH at the breaker box when you go to bed.  Do the 5 kW spikes go away?  Is the hot water at the tap cold in the AM?

Thermosiphons and cold basements can hide a lot of energy draws.  I had one on an oil hydronic system that burned through 1.2 gallons of oil per day, 365 days a year, about 35 kWh/day equivalent heat.  Sure kept one bathroom really cozy year round though.

Gotta chase this down before the snow thaws!

PS: Hold on to your head @Ashful, I got my PECO bill and my December usage was 3551 kWh, or 30% higher than yours!  Those Bolts don't run on unicorn farts.  Do I get a prize?


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## firefighterjake (Feb 25, 2018)

And then there's this happening here in Maine . . . 

http://wgme.com/news/i-team/i-team-cmp-looking-at-billing-system-as-possible-cause-for-high-bills

My bill seemed pretty normal, but I had read about a few unusually high bills from some Facebook friends.


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## Ashful (Feb 25, 2018)

woodgeek said:


> Hold on to your head @Ashful, I got my PECO bill and my December usage was 3551 kWh, or 30% higher than yours!  Those Bolts don't run on unicorn farts.  Do I get a prize?


... and here @jebatty almost had me convinced they do!

I have a good friend at work who hopped on the Volt, as soon as they became available, several years ago.  When that lease was up, he switched to he Bolt.  I've ridden in both, and they're both nice commuter cars.  Much nicer than the anemic horsepower-starved 4-cylinders most of that crowd would be driving, otherwise.  I can understand their appeal.


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## rowerwet (Feb 26, 2018)

firefighterjake said:


> And then there's this happening here in Maine . . .
> 
> http://wgme.com/news/i-team/i-team-cmp-looking-at-billing-system-as-possible-cause-for-high-bills
> 
> My bill seemed pretty normal, but I had read about a few unusually high bills from some Facebook friends.


Back when we lived in Maine , our winter bills would always be high, then we got a credit in the spring. 
They claimed their meter readers were too busy working with repair crews,  so they couldn't get readings. 
I always wondered why they didn't just estimate the same amount of electricity as the fall months when we already had our pellet boiler running and had a higher electric bill


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## Dougsey (Mar 23, 2018)

I just read this whole thread, any updates as to what the problem was?


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## saewoody (Mar 24, 2018)

Dougsey said:


> I just read this whole thread, any updates as to what the problem was?



I’m with you on this question. I keep checking back for a final answer; no luck yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## maple1 (Mar 26, 2018)

Yes, would be nice to hear back from the OP.

Had been a while since I'd checked in on this. The water pumping looks very suspect to me. If that much water isn't actually being used, it shouldn't be pumping it.

And 51 amps? Isn't that out there even for a startup surge/load?


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