# Wall Thimble



## AcadiaV (Mar 9, 2015)

Hi I'm new to this site and have some questions. I'm a 29 year old female that just bought a large brick house built in 1817 with 4 large chimneys, one on each corner. Prior to me buying the house one of the 4 fireplaces was removed and bricked over and so was the wall thimble above it that goes into the same chimney. I recently broke out the old thimble hole, put in a new thimble, and cemented it in place with Rutlands fire brick mortar. The wall around the the thimble is plaster but it's about  1/2" thick and it's directly on top of the brick without any lathe or wood. Would this be considered a combustible wall? How far clearance from this wall does the chimney pipe have to be. It does have wallpaper over the plaster. I am also using a antique sears and Roebuck potbelly stove, it's very small and I plan to burn coal. What should I use for clearance guidelines with this stove? I looked online but couldn't find anything specific. Thank for any help!


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## bholler (Mar 9, 2015)

I am much more concerned about the size and condition of the flue


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## AcadiaV (Mar 9, 2015)

The chimneys and house were all repainted 2 years ago and I looked inside the chimneys with a mirror and all are. In very good condition with the accept ion of the kitchen fireplace which has a few bricks that came loose on the back. The particular chimney I am speaking if no longer has a fireplace and is in really good shape. Would you think it would be ok to use? It's not lined


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## AcadiaV (Mar 9, 2015)

I meant repointed**


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## AcadiaV (Mar 9, 2015)

There's also a brick bread oven that's attached to the kitchen fireplace and the fireplace in the kitchen is 3x larger then the others. I think that one is so bad cause it was used for cooking so it was used the most


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## AcadiaV (Mar 9, 2015)

The chimney is also 2 bricks thick and 4 bricks thick on the outer walls.


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## pen (Mar 9, 2015)

If there's no liner in it, then it's not a safe chimney to burn in.  What are the interior dimensions?  Time to look at a stainless steel liner.

As for the coal stove, I don't know if the clearances are any different than a wood burner, but 36 inches to combustibles would be the minimum, wall shields may be able to reduce that, but again, I don't know if there are differences between coal and wood requirements.  Additionally, you'll need to get an appropriate hearth pad built for it to sit on.  Again, being an old unit, the error should be on the side of caution..... But before any of this work, make sure using the stove is going to be OK with your homeowners insurance.  Many do not accept non-UL approved units. 

Additionally, using an old stove like this is a gamble too.  Really, it needs to be torn down, and each piece inspected, and rebuilt with new furnace cement in joints to make sure it's tight enough to be controllable (I've used one that wasn't,,,,,, horrible experience).

Hate to be sharing so much bad news, but no room to do things wrong here. 

Pic of the house is beautiful!

Welcome to the site, and good luck.

The good news is this is the right time of year to be figuring these things out!

pen


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## AcadiaV (Mar 10, 2015)

Thus website says if your chimney us 2 bricks thick and that if the joints are staggered you don't need a liner. Is this not correct anymore? 

http://inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Un-Lined_Chimney_Flues.htm


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## Barnett (Mar 10, 2015)

whos going to maintain the chimney once decision is made ? you climbing up two stories in NH to clean n maintain ? no  talk to your local  maint guy or girl .. you could prolly do it  if its just yourself and no kids or folk depending on you sure .. only self to kill or mame..  i do al kinds of silly things BUT its only me .. I will be the only one damaged besides My property Far from city limits and neighbors.  i lived in new england many years and alot of those old chimneys are questionable at best  seems this is a nostalgic effort at best given the stove discussed. need go over the stove really well to.. this is all IMHO to.. remember a womans going to take a beating  on this kinda stuff


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## Barnett (Mar 10, 2015)

Shoving Dbl wall pipe or similar liner Negates most of the silly chimney crap . lowes n home depot sell this pipe very reasonable these days to.. or ya can nickel n dime your self to death. with try this n that  good luck


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## pen (Mar 10, 2015)

NFPA 211 guidelines from '03 say: 

_*7.2.2.1 Masonry chimneys shall be lined.*_


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## begreen (Mar 10, 2015)

AcadiaV said:


> Thus website says if your chimney us 2 bricks thick and that if the joints are staggered you don't need a liner. Is this not correct anymore?
> 
> http://inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Un-Lined_Chimney_Flues.htm


From that page I also saw residential building code requiring lining. This is a must. Lining will not only improve stove performance, it is a major safety improvement as well. A wood stove can and will get the flue very hot. Brick, even double brick, will transmit that heat to surrounding combustibles. And brick mortar will degrade over time, increasing risk. A proper insulated liner eliminates the worry and risk. This is really important if and when something goes wrong, and it will. For example, we get regular reports here of folks forgetting to close down the air on the stove. The flue in this case may see a sustained high temp of 1200F or higher for an hour or more. Yes, a liner is an additional expense, but consider it an investment. When something goes wrong, as it most likely will at some time, you will be thanking yourself for making this investment.

Note, the chimney must be thoroughly cleaned before lining. If you hire a certified sweep that person is qualified to do the lining. For a list of certified sweeps in your area enter your zip code in one of these sites:
www.csia.org
www.ncsg.org

To answer the wall thimble question, there is supposed to be brick 12" all around the thimble as it passes through the wall unless there is a special shielding thimble. This article covers the topic:  https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/passing_a_chimney


*RR1001.8 Flue lining (material).*
Masonry chimneys shall be lined. The lining material shall be appropriate for the type of appliance connected, according to the terms of the appliance listing and manufacturer's instructions.
*RR1001.8.1 Residential-type appliances (general).*
Flue lining systems shall comply with one of the following:
1. Clay flue lining complying with the requirements of ASTM C 315 or equivalent.
2. Listed chimney lining systems complying with UL 1777.
3. Factory-built chimneys or chimney units listed for installation within masonry chimneys.
4. Other materials that will resist, without cracking, softening or corrosion, flue gases and condensate at temperatures up to 1,800F (982C).


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## Barnett (Mar 10, 2015)

I couldnt agree more BE.. Today im twisted n clamped 6 id  thru mfgd. penetrations.  Remarkably inexp. these days to.  Especially for thee peace o mind factor.


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## bholler (Mar 10, 2015)

The only way to my knowledge that a brick chimney with out any clay metal or some other liner will pass code is if the inner layer of brick if fire brick.  This was done very rarely and still is not a very good solution.  And regardless of that i am sure the flue is not sized correctly for that stove and therefore will not preform properly.


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## Barnett (Mar 10, 2015)

Its too easy now to penetrate a wall etc and go up with the dbl wall pipe.than fooling with liners etc. At least seems to me. once comitted to going up that narrow hole  the expenses can mount. Im of the belief to exit or penetrate imed or asap once thru wall the codes are better for the less experienced Imho..


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## pen (Mar 10, 2015)

Barnett said:


> Its too easy now to penetrate a wall etc and go up with the dbl wall pipe.than fooling with liners etc. At least seems to me. once comitted to going up that narrow hole the expenses can mount. Im of the belief to exit or penetrate imed or asap once thru wall the codes are better for the less experienced Imho..



If the chimney is sound and has a large enough inside diameter for a stainless insulated liner, that will be much cheaper than insulated double wall pipe, and would preserve the good looks of this classic home.


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## AcadiaV (Mar 11, 2015)

Nationwide says on their website that older homes constructed with double brick unlined chimneys are safe to use as long as they have been inspected for safety, but your local code has to also say it's ok lol which I'm assuming is next to impossible. 

http://www.nationwide.com/wood-stove-safety.jsp


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2015)

Sounds like the first thing to do is get the chimney cleaned and inspected for safety. Do you know what are the inside dimensions of the chimney? There should be a reasonable close match between the flue size called for by the stove and the chimney. That should be verified.


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## AcadiaV (Mar 11, 2015)

I called my town building inspector and was told that they have no local code for chimneys, this might explain why it was so difficult to get homeowners insurance? As soon as I told a few companies the town I lived in, they said they didn't provide insurance for that area. Well I called and actually spoke with someone at my homeowners insurance and explained the situation to them and they said as long as it's inspected and there are no missing bricks, cracks or safety concerns. I can use the chimneys unlined as long as they are at least 2 bricks thick or what's known as 2 wythe


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## bholler (Mar 11, 2015)

AcadiaV said:


> I called my town building inspector and was told that they have no local code for chimneys, this might explain why it was so difficult to get homeowners insurance? As soon as I told a few companies the town I lived in, they said they didn't provide insurance for that area. Well I called and actually spoke with someone at my homeowners insurance and explained the situation to them and they said as long as it's inspected and there are no missing bricks, cracks or safety concerns. I can use the chimneys unlined as long as they are at least 2 bricks thick or what's known as 2 wythe


I am sure there are some sort of state code though even in new Hampshire but regardless of code it is not going to work well and could be dangerous.  And a wythe is the wall separating the flues not the side walls


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2015)

This is for a coal stove correct? That will not have creosote issues, but you do want good draft and you do want it to be safe. 

A *wythe* is a continuous vertical section of masonry one unit in thickness. A wythe may be independent of, or interlocked with, the adjoining wythe(s). A single wythe of brick that is not structural in nature is referred to as a veneer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wythe


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## AcadiaV (Mar 11, 2015)

Thank you begreen. Yes this is for a coal stove.

Bholler, I just don't understand how this could be dangerous if I have a certified chimney sweep inspect the chimney. I just don't think my insurance company would allow it. Too many people simply say no don't do it out of fear of being held liable and not taking the time to educate themselves on the issues. I trust my insurance company has a interest to give me the most safe and up to date info on this. How would you perceive this to be dangerous? I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to evaluate all possibilities. Thanks


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## bholler (Mar 11, 2015)

begreen said:


> A wythe is a continuous vertical section of masonry one unit in thickness. A wythe may be independent of, or interlocked with, the adjoining wythe(s). A single wythe of brick that is not structural in nature is referred to as a veneer.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wythe


Ok then my bad on that




AcadiaV said:


> Bholler, I just don't understand how this could be dangerous if I have a certified chimney sweep inspect the chimney. I just don't think my insurance company would allow it. Too many people simply say no don't do it out of fear of being held liable and not taking the time to educate themselves on the issues. I trust my insurance company has a interest to give me the most safe and up to date info on this. How would you perceive this to be dangerous? I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to evaluate all possibilities. Thanks


In your case it is more about performance and having good draft.  What size is the flue?  It should match very closely the volume of the outlet on your stove.  How was the chimney inspected?  If it was not scanned the whole length with a camera the sweep has no idea whether it is safe or not.  The safety issues in your case are not really regarding fire.  For you it is more about carbon monoxide.  The potential problems for your setup is inadequate draft allowing co to escape the stove of bad mortar joints combined with inadequate draft allowing it to escape through the joints and into the living space


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## AcadiaV (Mar 11, 2015)

When I get it inspected I'll be sure to make sure they do a complete inspection with a camera, draft is not an issue as when I re-opened the thimble I could feel a very strong draft sucking through the thimble and up the chimney. I also sealed off another fireplace in the house on another chimney. Identical in height and size and when I did, the draft was strong enough to move a small piece of sheet metal. As far as leaking gas I'm not concerned about it as I A: have a CO Detector in each room, B: the joints are staggered on the different layers of bricks which from the research I have done greatly reduced the risk of leaking gasses due to cracks, C: the strong draft and D: I plan to have the chimney inspected regularly. Now I just hope the inspection goes well. I will keep you guys posted!


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## bholler (Mar 11, 2015)

AcadiaV said:


> When I get it inspected I'll be sure to make sure they do a complete inspection with a camera, draft is not an issue as when I re-opened the thimble I could feel a very strong draft sucking through the thimble and up the chimney. I also sealed off another fireplace in the house on another chimney. Identical in height and size and when I did, the draft was strong enough to move a small piece of sheet metal. As far as leaking gas I'm not concerned about it as I A: have a CO Detector in each room, B: the joints are staggered on the different layers of bricks which from the research I have done greatly reduced the risk of leaking gasses due to cracks, C: the strong draft and D: I plan to have the chimney inspected regularly. Now I just hope the inspection goes well. I will keep you guys posted!


Ok then you obviously Are not interested in hearing our concerns.  I do have to tell you that if you have it inspected by a sweep if they are certified and follow the guidelines of any certifying authority out there they will tell you it need lined And as far as your insurance company goes as long as a sweep signs off on it it is no longer their problem it will go to that sweeps insurance which is why no reputable sweep should sign off on it


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## bholler (Mar 11, 2015)

Also how do you know that the joints are staggered?  The head joints may be but it is very rare for the bed joints to be staggered


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## AcadiaV (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm simply not interested in being scared into paying thousands of dollars when I don't need to. Bholler, are you a chimney sweep or at all affiliated with the stove, chimney sales field? Do you have any qualifications as an expert? Have you any interest in people buying chimney liners?


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## bholler (Mar 11, 2015)

AcadiaV said:


> I'm simply not interested in being scared into paying thousands of dollars when I don't need to. Bholler, are you a chimney sweep or at all affiliated with the stove, chimney sales field? Do you have any qualifications as an expert? Have you any interest in people buying chimney liners?


I am a Csia certified sweep and a member of the pa guild.  But no i will in no way going to profit from you buying a liner.  But according to my professional code of ethics i am obliged to tell you of potential safety issues i see with your chimney system.  I don't mean to pick on you at all and honestly it is entirely up to you if you take my advice or not.  But what i am telling you is based on years of experience and training not a few days of research on the internet. I am also not trying to scare you into anything that has never been my approach and i have never tried to sell a liner to someone that i didn't think really needed it.


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## AcadiaV (Mar 11, 2015)

So you do sell liners.


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## bholler (Mar 11, 2015)

AcadiaV said:


> So you do sell liners.



yes i do i am a sweep and there are many times that liners are needed but i dont just put liners in if they are not needed and i will in no way benefit from it if you buy a liner.


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## AcadiaV (Mar 11, 2015)

But you would benefit if more people thought their double brick chimneys were in need of liners when they are not.


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## bholler (Mar 11, 2015)

AcadiaV said:


> But you would benefit if more people thought their double brick chimneys were in need of liners when they are not.


I am not the one who has done the testing written the codes and requirements.  As a pro i need to follow those requirements which say that chimneys need liners and a brick chimney unless it is lined with fire brick no matter how thick it is it does not meet the requirement.  Now if i were to come out to your hose i would inspect the chimney and tell you it does not meet the current standard and could possibly pose some safety issues.  And then i would give you a quote to fix it in order to bring it up to the current requirements.  And yes i looked it up and new hampshire follows nfpa 211 and irc for their codes.  I have never used scare tactics to sell anything i just present the homeowner with the issues that i see.  But to answer your question yes if people stopped lining chimneys that need liners yes that would hurt my profits for sure


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2015)

Sounds like this one has played itself out. Get it swept and inspected. Install the stove safely respecting the required 36" clearances from combustibles. Burn safely.

FWIW, bholler doesn't make any money from posting here.  Making installations safer when he leaves the premises is his business.


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## Barnett (Mar 11, 2015)

at a buddy o mines house we just shoved the  twisted n clamped 6 id pipe rt up the chimney.  Came out top a piece o sheet metal trim to fill sq hole  and a cap on pipe . Wind type,  I used a pipe clamp at vey top inside chimney trimmed to fit .  And insert mounted to wall and one near the beginning of the run near stove tee. took all of 50 minutes.  2 ft past bricks well over peaks etc great draft  easy sweeper too..


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