# Tiny home, shallow pockets, why not Vogelzang?



## Debi (Nov 26, 2011)

Been reading the threads on Vogelzang stoves here and it sounds like they are not highly thought of.  I have read reviews at other sites and find alot of positive posts.... hmmmm, unsure what we should do so therefore my question.
A bit of info - We are replacing a very old box stove and the entire chimney system.  We do not have a big budget.  Our home is 500 square feet that is not an open design, the wood stove is our main heat source (no furnace here), and we are in Wyoming which equals gorgeous but cold in winter.  I've been looking at the Vogelzang Defender but am concerned it won't be quite warm enough, and the Vogelzang Performer but think it may bake us out.  Also looked at a Lennox Grandview 230 but it doesn't have favorable reviews and it may also bake us out. We are going with double wall interior and insulated double wall exterior pipes.  The ceramic tile was layed on top the cement board yesterday and we are ready to pick out the stove.  Please tell me your opinions on one of these Volgelzang stoves, or another that may work for our situation. Thanks for any and all input. God bless.


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## kingquad (Nov 26, 2011)

What is your insulation like?  Could you provide a floor plan?

I personally know nothing about the Vozelzang stoves other than they have ridiculous BTU claims.  Lots of cheap stoves out there though.
Englander
Century
Drolet
Timberwolf

If you want any chance of an overnight burn, then I'd be looking in the 2cuft range if I were buying a non cat.  In your situation though, I'd be buying a cat stove.  Woodstock Keystone or Buck Model 20.  Not cheap though.


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## Debi (Nov 26, 2011)

The floor plan is rectangular and you can walk through each room to get to the others and back to the first one again, no doors, there is a center wall through just about the middle with a doorway near each end.  The stove is in the largest room on one end, on an angle in an outside corner.  Not sure of the rating of our insulation but it seems "average".  It's not a drafty old place but it's not airtight either.


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## Shane (Nov 26, 2011)

I would really look at an Englander.  It would be worth the little extra, or maybe look at a used stove as well.  The extra expenditure could turn into extra years of useful stove life that save you money in the end.


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2011)

Vogelzang is a seller of stoves. Most (if not all) are from China. But some are EPA approved and not a bad value. Just avoid the bottom of the barrel junk. Some can be unsafe in a home and can be a poor investment. 

If you tell us more about the home, your heating needs and what your budget options are we can be of greater assistance. Please understand though that the flue system and installation has to be safe. This is not a place for compromise. One would be better holding off and saving if the installation can't be done correctly at this time due to budget.


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## DexterDay (Nov 26, 2011)

Englander 30-NC can be had pretty cheap at times. Or the Englander 13-NC (little smaller).

The 30 is a great stove.

How large are the Firebox's on the stoves your looking at? Larger the box = Longer the burn


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## BrowningBAR (Nov 26, 2011)

The majority of the issues with Vogelzang comes from their Non-EPA stoves as BeGreen mentioned. Some here have the EPA approved Colonial insert and it has worked out well for them.


Also, the thread title reminds me of the meme "Why Not Zoidberg?"


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## kingquad (Nov 26, 2011)

DexterDay said:
			
		

> Englander 30-NC can be had pretty cheap at times. Or the Englander 13-NC (little smaller).
> 
> The 30 is a great stove.
> 
> How large are the Firebox's on the stoves your looking at? Larger the box = Longer the burn


The 30 would be ridiculously overpowered for this setup.


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## kingquad (Nov 26, 2011)

Debi, what kind of wood will you be burning?


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## Debi (Nov 26, 2011)

We are going to have everything professionally installed by the company we are purchasing all the pipe from.  They are very busy with their installations and I have not heard any issues or dissatisfaction about them.  We are spending the most on the chimney system and installation for the very reason that we want it done correctly this time.  We also don't want to purchase a stove that won't last or is incorrect, but we do need to preferably keep it under $1000.00, while still being able to heat our home (described in two posts above).  Thank you all 

Most everyone burns pine as Ponderosa Pine is mostly what there is out here.  In fact, when you buy a cord, it's all pine.  We usually take down our own trees, standing dead, and let it for a year.  I realize this is a soft wood but it's plentiful.  Plus in the past, I have had asthma issues when burning oak.  Don't know of anything else around here other then maybe some ash but that may be hard to find.


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2011)

As a sole source of heat my preference would be to get some mass around the stove to even out the temperature swings. A lightweight steel stove will be like an on/off heater. Hot when running and cold when not. 

I would look at a small Woodstock stove as a good, safe investment that will give you the best comfort. Or perhaps a PE Alderlea T4?


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## RIDGERUNNER30 (Nov 26, 2011)

Hey debi, welcome to the forum and it's good to see you doing some research on other stove brands, everybody has there own brand they perfer and such but the vogelzang brand i believe is made in china and over the years the stove will not hold up to the work load you will put the stove threw, I see you don't have alot of square footage to heat and if you have good insulation you don't need a big stove, I like the england stoves  for a stove that is cheap to buy, made in the usa, and has a big following on here and with many good reviews, they are sold at big box stores and online to, I don't own one myself but would purchase one. I would love to go see wyoming some day they say it's a nice place. go to england website and look at the diffrent models but least get a 2cubic feet firebox so you don't have to load the stove so often. good luck


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2011)

I like the Englander 13NC, but it needs a very well insulated hearth (R=2.0). My concern is that the OP has indicated they have already laid tile on the hearth. If this is just ember protection, the choice of stoves is going to be constrained by the hearth. Hopefully it is large enough for the stove clearances. This is why one should never build a hearth before knowing what is going on it unless one builds it large and with a high insulation value to cover a wide range of installations.


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## kingquad (Nov 26, 2011)

BeGreen,
Don't you feel like the T5 would be a better fit?  That T4 will struggle to get an overnight burn, especially with pine.  The super firebox seems to tolerate small loads well, and give overnight burns with softwood.  Plus N/S loading.

I'm honestly sticking with my original suggestion, Keystone or Buck Model 20.  This screams cat stove.


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2011)

500 sq ft is a tough size and this is not an open floorplan. Yes a T5 might work, but mostly at idle with small loads of wood which also means more frequent reloads. The T4 is capable of 6 hr burns which is about as good as I would expect for this small home unless one puts in a cat stove. At least the T4 has some added mass to release heat until a reload.


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## Debi (Nov 26, 2011)

I really appreciate all your input, shared knowledge and help!  In regards to the tile and hearth, it was already built for the old box stove but never prettied up, which is why the tile was done.  It is a fairly large area and 4 feet up the walls in the corner.  Probably way overboard for a smaller stove.  When you say cat stove, are you referring to a catalytic?


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## begreen (Nov 26, 2011)

Yes cat = catalytic. What is the construction of the current hearth and what is its dimensions. That will help refine stove choices.


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## Debi (Nov 26, 2011)

I don't know the full construction of the hearth as I wasn't present when it was built, but do know that the tile was layed over cement board and it was at least 64 square feet.


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## stoveguy2esw (Nov 27, 2011)

the defender by "v-gang" is A  nice little stove , totally unlike the "death box" cast unit that most in here shun like the spanish flu.

its an effective heater similar to out 13-NC, guys its a real stove, dont bash it too hard , i'd actually like to see the "v-gang" get into real stoves and gain some good cred from them so they would quit selling the 279.00 POS cast ornament we all love to beat on so much.

if the Op is looking to save and put in a safe epa certified stove its not a bad choice for the economy budget. personally , i'd prefer he looked at the 13-NC we carry but im biased. simply put either unit would heat 500 sq ft with any insulation at all for well under a grand for the stove.

to the OP, welcome to the hearth, i warn you now, its addictive


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## Dix (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Debi, welcome to the forums, and welcome to Dah Sistahood (see link below in my signature  ! )

I use the NC 13 to heat an accessory apartment in my home  (easy, as my daughter lives there) that is 550 Sf. It does the job well. The chimney runs straight up through a one story roof. The entire install (hearth - on a slab -, stove, chimney, and incidentals) was $1100 dollars.  You'll get a 6 hour tops burn out of it, but it's a serious heater. It heats another 400 Sf of my home if the connectiog doors are open.

You'd have to check the clearances to combustibles to see if it would work.

Manual info here :

http://www.overstockstoves.com/50epacenowos.html


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## SlyFerret (Nov 27, 2011)

kingquad said:
			
		

> DexterDay said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, don't put a 30 in a 500 sqft house.   It will easily make the house uncomfortably warm.  Waaaay too big!

-SF


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## HotCoals (Nov 27, 2011)

How can it be just 500sq.ft.?
Your talking 25x20...with a hall in the middle?
You sure it's just 500 sq.ft?
My family room alone is 432 sq.ft...and it's not that big.


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## fossil (Nov 27, 2011)

Debi said:
			
		

> ...In regards to the tile and hearth, it was already built for the old box stove but never prettied up, which is why the tile was done.  It is a fairly large area and 4 feet up the walls in the corner...



A corner installation adds a bit of complexity to the Clearance To Combustibles (CTC) requirements with which every stove installation must comply.  As you learn more about what you're doing here, you'll likely start hearing about reducing CTC's by means of appropriately constructed wall shielding.  Whether or not this is even permissable will depend upon what the appliance manufacturer says in the owner's/installer's documentation.  In any case, if the tiles that you refer to as going 4 feet up your walls are bonded directly to a combustible wall, or even to a non-combustible substrate that's bonded directly to the wall (no air space built-in), then the manufacturer's stated CTC's for the appliance _may not_ be reduced.  Rick


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## Loco Gringo (Nov 27, 2011)

http://www.overstockstoves.com/50wost31sqft.html

 At this time of year, this is a deal.


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## fossil (Nov 27, 2011)

Loco Gringo said:
			
		

> http://www.overstockstoves.com/50wost31sqft.html
> 
> At this time of year, this is a deal.



35-1, EPA exempt.  Personally, I'd hardly call it a deal anytime of the year.  I really think the OP can do better than this by finding a certified stove that's still within budget.  Rick


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## Stump_Branch (Nov 27, 2011)

I can offer this. I had one, welds werent the prettiest, not the thickest steel, mine was small so that hurt it too.

For the short time, one season, it held up well and when pushed would make it comfy.

I upgraded because its too much of a hastle to fiddle with it all the time.  To boot my biggest complaint are the btu numbers being very inflated in my opinion.

There are some cheaper but good steel stoves to be had. Go for nice firebox size and thicker steel if you do.

Or like me and find them used.

Good luck.


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## Debi (Nov 27, 2011)

Hi Eileen, looks like we have more in common then just burning wood.  Several of our horses are rescues we have adopted and we teach horsemanship .  
Yes, 500 square feet, 18 x 30 and take off 40 sf for the recessed exterior porch.  I wouldn't know how to act in a 432 sf room, lol.
Regarding CTC, if I remember right, we had 18" on the back corners with the other stove which was a very large box type.  I realize that with a different shaped stove we will need to especially watch the side clearances.


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## kingquad (Nov 27, 2011)

Debi, what is your budget for this project?  Makes it easier for us to find something specific.

EDIT:  You mention this "other stove".  What was it?  How did it perform?  Can you describe the chimney setup?


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## Loco Gringo (Nov 27, 2011)

My bad fossil, I didnt notice it was exempt.


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## Dune (Nov 27, 2011)

HotCoals said:
			
		

> How can it be just 500sq.ft.?
> Your talking 25x20...with a hall in the middle?
> You sure it's just 500 sq.ft?
> My family room alone is 432 sq.ft...and it's not that big.



A wall in the middle. My first house was 650 ft2, 2 bedrooms, living room, kitchen, bath, small utility room.


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## rwhite (Nov 27, 2011)

Not and expert by any strech but I can give you my recommendation after installing an insert with a 1.8 cuft fire box. Anthing smaller than that regardless of rating would be a pain. 1.8 cuft does a good job of heating about 1000 sqft of living space and I can pull the heat upstairs and keep the attic room comfortable (another 400 sqft). Not enough capicity to get an 8 hr burn, maybe 5-6 if I use large chunk of oak or maple. But it is kind of a pain to load and doesn't hold a lot of wood. I would think anything smaller would be a real pain even if it would heat the house. Here are a couple of stoves that may fit the budget. Do you already have pipe installed? I think it may be hard to stay at 1k if you need pipe and are having it installed. I got mine used for $250 but by the time I bought pipe and a few other accesories I was pretty near a grand. Here are a few that may fit the bill. I think they are made by Napolean and look like a good stove. 


http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-Stove-and-Accessories/Wood-Stoves-Small-under-1500-sqft

http://www.woodlanddirect.com/Wood-...erwolf-2200-Economizer-EPA-Wood-Burning-Stove


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## ddddddden (Nov 27, 2011)

+1 for a catalytic stove for longer burns from a small box.  Not very many cat stoves are made, and none are < $1k new, but it's worth spending the $, IMO.  You know how you sometimes shut the draft on your old stove when you want less heat/longer burn?  Well, the EPA doesn't allow that on new stoves, because it creates a dirty burn. . .unless a catalyst is involved.  So, if you want a long burn, you need to burn a big load of wood in a big stove, but that'd overheat your space. . .hence the recommendations for a small cat stove.  Meow.


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## Debi (Nov 27, 2011)

Kingquad - the chimney is a straight up pipe.  I had single walled to triple walled but am going with double walled interior to insulated double walled exterior and adding three feet outside for better draft.  Since a huge old tree was taken down out front we have had some draft issues with the old stove.  
rwhite - The stove was an ancient Fischer box stove that was medium sized, and bigger then what our sf needed.  Our $1000 hopeful budget is for the stove only, not including pipes and installation, which we have actually been quoted $1500 so far.


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## begreen (Nov 27, 2011)

Well, an Alderlea T4 would cost around $1900, a Woodstock Keystone about $1800, so they may be out of reach. If so, I would focus on the less expensive PE Vista stove for about $1200, A True North T19 with side shields may be a bit under $1K, and also look at the Drolet Millenia for about $1100. 

As some have suggested there is also the Englander 13NC at $788 delivered to your nearest loading dock. This is a fine, small, US made stove that would work for you providing that your hearth is adequate and your clearances work out: http://www.overstockstoves.com/50epacenowos.html The side clearances can be reduced a bit with optional side shields. The hearth requirement is R=2.0. Here's a link to the manual:

http://www.englanderstove.com/manuals/13-NC.pdf


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## SlyFerret (Nov 27, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Well, an Alderlea T4 would cost around $1900, a Woodstock Keystone about $1800, so they may be out of reach. If so, I would focus on the less expensive PE Vista stove for about $1200, A True North T19 with side shields may be a bit under $1K, and also look at the Drolet Millenia for about $1100.
> 
> As some have suggested there is also the Englander 13NC at $788 delivered to your nearest loading dock. This is a fine, small, made in USA stove that would work for you providing that your hearth is adequate and your clearances work out: http://www.overstockstoves.com/50epacenowos.html The side clearances can be reduced a bit with optional side shields. The hearth requirement is R=2.0. Here's a link to the manual:
> 
> http://www.englanderstove.com/manuals/13-NC.pdf



The 13 would be an excellent choice, and a really good value.

-SF


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## Lynch (Nov 27, 2011)

what about a jotul f100 nordic 
i heat my house with it no problem  and it 700 sqft.
works very well and not to expensive either. 
i have been able to get 7 hour burn times when stuffed full over night.
6 is pretty easy to do.  but with pine that could be hard to do i dont know.
check out the jotul!


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## tuco1963 (Nov 28, 2011)

hi debi welcome to the forum
ive got a us stove co country hearth 2000 wood stove thats been good last year and so far this year i got it at tractor supply here in indiana for $545 not sure what rural stores you have in wyo but its a bargin here on my 1400 ft house , they have a smaller version that heats 1000 sq ft for $300 ish  might be something to look at


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## Debi (Nov 28, 2011)

All of you people here are fantastic, and I am very grateful for your help!
tuco1963 - I just looked at that stove on the Home Depot website and wondered about it.  Noticed it while checking out the Englander.  
There are so many different features, pros, cons etc out there on wood stoves that it's a bit mind boggling but I am wading through and persevering! That's part of why I value this forum so much!  
Hope to check out the US Stoves, Englanders and others you all have suggested in the next day or two in person.  Living where we do is awesome but everything is at least an hour or two drive away, with selection and brands somewhat limited.  I want to actually see some of these stoves myself, not just online, so hope to narrow the selection down a bit with some road trips.


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## BrotherBart (Nov 28, 2011)

I don't do pitches here very often, but can only talk from personal experience. Were it me being out away from a stove shop I would do what I did. Buy an Englander stove. In your case the 13-NC. I have the 30-NC. Help is only a toll free call away from them and warranty parts land on your porch via UPS. Fast.

I agree with Mike that the Vogelzang EPA certified stoves will do the job for ya. I just don't have any experience with their service like I do with England's Stove Works. But I can guarantee you that unless VZ puts a tech in your spare bedroom the service can't get better.


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Nov 28, 2011)

Englander 13-NC rocks.   I also think the EPA stoves (other than vogelzang)  at the big box stores are a great deal and have had favorable reviews.


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## Debi (Nov 28, 2011)

Okay, I'm talked out of a Vogelzang (you guys did that quite a few posts back and then I went to look at them and it was a no) and pretty much talked into an Englander.  Thank you again so very, very much.  Will let you know how things turn out as we sure hope to have everything a done deal within a week or so.  God bless you all


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## begreen (Nov 28, 2011)

Good move Debi, best of luck and success. Please stay around and let us know how it works out for you. And if possible, take some pictures of the transformation. We love pictures here.


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## Dix (Nov 28, 2011)

OMG !! She has paints


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## Debi (Nov 28, 2011)

@ Eileen -   along with various other varieties both great and small, with several longears thrown in for good measure!  Today is Englander stove shopping day! Rather excited.


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## begreen (Nov 28, 2011)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> OMG !! She has paints



LOL. When I first read this I saw - OMG she has pants. That stopped me for a moment.


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## Dix (Nov 28, 2011)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Laughing.. I hope so, other wise the rides would be uncomfortable


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## begreen (Nov 29, 2011)

Just came back from a nice walk and said hello to a pair of nice palomino paints.


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## Dix (Nov 29, 2011)

Awesome. They're my favs, obviously 

I got a hankering for a mini long ears, how ever. Some day


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## Debi (Nov 29, 2011)

you guys crack me up!  
Our longears are guardians for the minis, and definitely entertainment for us.


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## Dix (Nov 29, 2011)

FYI, if you click on a thread that has "chaps" in the title, it ain't gonna be what you think it is !


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## Wood Duck (Nov 29, 2011)

rwhite said:
			
		

> Not and expert by any strech but I can give you my recommendation after installing an insert with a 1.8 cuft fire box. Anthing smaller than that regardless of rating would be a pain. 1.8 cuft does a good job of heating about 1000 sqft of living space and I can pull the heat upstairs and keep the attic room comfortable (another 400 sqft). Not enough capicity to get an 8 hr burn, maybe 5-6 if I use large chunk of oak or maple. But it is kind of a pain to load and doesn't hold a lot of wood. I would think anything smaller would be a real pain even if it would heat the house.



I think this is a very good point. Small stoves don't burn as long as big ones. Sometimes loading the stove is fun, like it will be tomorrow for me when we have our first burn in a week or so (it has been unseasonably warm here), but after a day or two I would like to be able to let the stove burn longer, and I don't get overnight heat. By February or March I will be thinking seriously about buying a stove that burns longer. I think my next stove will be a cat stove so I an let it smoulder but still get a clean, long burn.


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## jeromehdmc (Nov 29, 2011)

Didn't Cowboy Billy just put in a smaller stove, True North I think it was? He has a thread showing it in his cabin. I know it's tough having all these choices but you may see something you never knew was out there. 

By the way I thought Dix said she had pants too. And what are longears, mules?


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## Cowboy Billy (Nov 29, 2011)

Hi Debi

   I got a Pacific Energy true north two months ago. It was $950 + tax and I think it would have been another $40 for the side shields for reduced clearance.  Its in a 12x20 room hooked to a 26' coachman travel trailer. I've only used it a few weeks but so far only in temps going down to the 30's but so far I am really happy with it. With 4" of coals and three oak rounds it was burning 7-8hrs with enough coals to easily get another fire going in the morning. 

   I got the new woodstove in the bunkhouse. In a way I hated to replace the 110 year old stove. And I really hate loosing all the radiant heat the round oak put out. Standing with my back to it and having the heat relax all my sore mussels. But I don't miss having to put wood in it every four hrs and having to leave the windows and door open in -6 deg weather because it was too hot inside.







   I haven't ran it in really cold weather yet. Low 30's at nite and mid 40's to mid 50's in the day. My wood isn't as dry as it should be and I was having a lot of buildup on the window. I was only using 2-3 splits at a time with the air cut all the way back. In fact I was afraid to fill it full without having a good fan. As it wanted to run 550 to 650 deg stove top all the time. If I wanted to keep it down to 300 I would only throw two splits and not give it any air to start. Burning white birch and red maple.

   It was wild watching it restart from coals in the morning. Starting with the stove top 200 deg give it full air. Get the secondary's going good around 350 and watch the stove pipe get hot. Close off the air the stove top climbs to 550 but the stove pipe temps drop. Next time I get up to the farm I am going to take some chalk mark the stove pipe every foot. And record the pipe and stove top temps lighting the stove, with the air 1/2 open and the top at 350. Then with the air off top at 550. If I remember correctly after the air was down for a while the top at 550 the pipe was only at 275.

   A little secondary action.











Billy


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## Debi (Nov 29, 2011)

Thanks CB for posting those pix!  I've been learning alot about these new stoves through all of you here and digging deeper into this site along with a few others.  Must say that I find this forum and website truly helpful and am grateful.

Regarding longears.... donkeys and a mule.  The following is Baby Buck who is now a big oaf that towers over the miniature horses but is bossed around by even the smallest of them.  I think his ears pick up radio half way across the globe


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## wkpoor (Nov 29, 2011)

Doing The Dixie Eyed Hustle said:
			
		

> FYI, if you click on a thread that has "chaps" in the title, it ain't gonna be what you think it is !


Sure it was. Depends on where you come from.


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## Dix (Nov 29, 2011)

Debi said:
			
		

> Thanks CB for posting those pix!  I've been learning alot about these new stoves through all of you here and digging deeper into this site along with a few others.  Must say that I find this forum and website truly helpful and am grateful.
> 
> Regarding longears.... donkeys and a mule.  The following is Baby Buck who is now a big oaf that towers over the miniature horses but is bossed around by even the smallest of them.  I think his ears pick up radio half way across the globe



Love the 'Fro  

It'll take a few to sort through stoves, clearances, and all that. Feel free to ask away, Debi


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## Debi (Dec 1, 2011)

Ordered the Englander 13 NC a few hours ago from overstockstoves.com. Thank you BeGreen for that link! Hoping it comes soon! Spoke with a very helpful, pleasant and efficient man by the name of Eric. They should give that man a raise   He worked hard at finding a place close enough for the drop point but when you live in no-mans land there is no such place as "close" (one of the many beautiful things about living here).  The closest he had was 97 miles away but after quite a few calls back and forth he got permission from his company, and the sawmill a half mile from here, to have it shipped there for me.    Happy Dance!


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## begreen (Dec 1, 2011)

Great that you could work it out that close. Any loading dock will do. These are factory direct stoves so you don't have to worry. Warmth is coming.


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## Dix (Dec 1, 2011)

YES !

Go Deb


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## Agent (Dec 1, 2011)

Good to hear you got things figured out in a right hurry! Real nice they got it delivered that close.

It's great seeing a fellow Wyomingite on board as well.
I am just about to replace my old Big Buck stove as well, and have decided on the Englander - 30.  Nothing like cost effective to make those stoves really attractive!  Congrats


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## Danno77 (Dec 1, 2011)

Awesome decision! As soon as you get the stove, call up ESW and register it for warranty purposes. Great company; hopefully there won't be anything amiss with your new stove, but be assured that ESW will be great to work with if you need to!


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## Mrs. Krabappel (Dec 1, 2011)

Debi said:
			
		

> Ord  The closest he had was 97 miles away but after quite a few calls back and forth he got permission from his company, and the sawmill a half mile from here, to have it shipped there for me.    Happy Dance!



Wow, go englander!


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## BrotherBart (Dec 1, 2011)

Try that one with any other stove company on the planet.

I dun tink so Lucy.

Slap!! Deb and BG high five.


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