# 2 Stroke Oil Specifications



## jatoxico (Apr 26, 2014)

Did some more cutting today w/ a Husqvarna saw . Bucked up about 15' of oak and a little noodling. Pretty much out of the Tru Fuel I bought to use while getting the saw tuned. Tru Fuel is a non ethanol 92 (?) octane premixed at 1:50.

Now that the saw is all set I want do my own mix since the Tru Fuel is $7.00 a qt. I have some Ace Hardware ashless 2 stroke oil that says it meets spec for Toro and Echo (I have both) which call for 1:50. Problem is it doesn't specify exactly which standard it is made to (JASO or ISO). Safe to assume that an oil suitable to be mixed at 1:50 meets the JASO FD spec? The Husky manual states if the oil is JASO FB then mix to 1:33.


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## TreePointer (Apr 26, 2014)

The manuals were printed with specifications for the oils available at the time of product testing, which could have been many years ago.  Today's modern synthetic oils are advanced to the point that they provide the same or even better protection with as small a ratio of 50:1.

If it's a modern synthetic oil designed for air-cooled 2-cycle engines (not a "W" rating or multiuse), it should be fine at 50:1.  If you wish to remove all doubt, use oil with a label that has the name of a quality chainsaw maker such as Stihl, Husqvarna, Dolmar, Echo, et al.


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## jatoxico (Apr 26, 2014)

TreePointer said:


> The manuals were printed with specifications for the oils available at the time of product testing, which could have been many years ago.  Today's modern synthetic oils are advanced to the point that they provide the same or even better protection with as small a ratio of 50:1.
> 
> If it's a modern synthetic oil designed for air-cooled 2-cycle engines (not a "W" rating or multiuse), it should be fine at 50:1.  If you wish to remove all doubt, use oil with a label that has the name of a quality chainsaw maker such as Stihl, Husqvarna, Dolmar, Echo, et al.



Yeah I just wish it listed some spec to fall back on. Saw is a 2013 vintage. The oil says ashless which I thought was for the water cooled 2 strokes but bottle says its for air cooled motors. In all likelihood it's fine. Can get bogged down for hours researching this stuff though.


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## TreePointer (Apr 27, 2014)

If it says "air cooled," then that's the designation you want.  Just be aware that some are better than others.

The full synthetic oils like Stihl Ultra actually will keep your engine clean.  It's not just a sales gimmick.  Lots of folks, including me, have torn down engines that use Ultra, and they are demonstrably cleaner (less depositing and gumming).  They are good insurance for your engine.

The water cooled formulas (or multipurpose formulas) have a "W" in their designation like TC*W* or TC-*W*3.  Even though these may state that they will also work in chainsaws, OPE manufacturers like Stihl do not recommend you use them in your air cooled chainsaw, trimmer, etc.  Chainsaws  place different demands on their engines than outboard engines and snowmobiles.

In the future, to avoid getting bogged down as you say in the oil specification alphabet soup, use the tip I gave earlier.  If the 2-cycle air cooled engine oil bottle says Stihl, Husqvarna, or Echo on it, then you can rest assured that it more than meets the requirements of your chainsaw.  I don't trust the strange name inexpensive 2-cycle oil that the local big box hardware or farm store sells.


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## Mag Craft (Apr 27, 2014)

I use the Stihl ultra in all my saws no matter what make.    The reason as mentioned above is, that it is one of the few on the market that is 100% synthetic and not a blend such as Husqvarna's oil and other manufactures.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 27, 2014)

I usually get lit up for saying so, but here goes. . . 


Use anything you want.  Air cooled 2 stroke engines, like the ones found on saws and trimmers and so forth, are not picky.  As long as there is sufficient oil in the gas you're fine. Oil related failures are basically unheard of.  There's lots of way to ruin a saw but choosing the wrong premix oil ain't one. These saws are marketed and sold and used all over the world and run just fine on anything that is available.  

Also, Stihl doesn't own or run a refinery.  Someone at corporate HQ puts out a bid for premix oil, some refiner gets the bid, and some 3rd party puts it in bottles with a picture of a chainsaw on it.  I'd be surprised if anyone at Stihl on the manufacturing side had anything at all to do with the tiny corner of the business that prints labels and packages some one else's premix oil in orange bottles.


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## Mag Craft (Apr 27, 2014)

Bigg_Redd said:


> I usually get lit up for saying so, but here goes. . .
> 
> 
> Use anything you want.  Air cooled 2 stroke engines, like the ones found on saws and trimmers and so forth, are not picky.  As long as there is sufficient oil in the gas you're fine. Oil related failures are basically unheard of.  There's lots of way to ruin a saw but choosing the wrong premix oil ain't one. These saws are marketed and sold and used all over the world and run just fine on anything that is available.
> ...



Well I will not lite you up but,
It really does not matter to me where Stihl gets there oil from as long as it is 100% synthetic.   
Synthetic oils are proven, fact based to reduce friction over Dino oils.  Less friction less heat.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 27, 2014)

Mag Craft said:


> Synthetic oils are proven, fact based to reduce friction over Dino oils. Less friction less heat.



While all of this is true, it's also true any premix oil from any reputable refiner will cause niether failure nor premature wear.


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## Mag Craft (Apr 27, 2014)

Bigg_Redd said:


> While all of this is true, it's also true any premix oil from any reputable refiner will cause niether failure nor premature wear.




Ok.


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## TreePointer (Apr 27, 2014)

Engine failure is not the standard.  Over time, less than optimal starting and running are the likely issues.

Of course Stihl doesn't make their oil.  I wasn't stating that one *MUST* use Stihl, Husqvarna, or another brand to be safe.  If the OP is unsure about the oil, going with Stihl or Husqvarna oil will remove any doubt.

I've worked on saws and other OPE that had been running the cheapest mystery oil that's "perfect for chainsaws" and I've even used it myself.  The innards are not pretty.

If you have any Stihl 4-Mix engines (some pole saws, trimmers, blowers, Kombi units) and want to keep things simple by having only one can of fuel in the garage for them and your other chainsaws, trimmers, etc., then it is indeed advantageous to use Ultra.  It has been demonstrated that even Stihl dino oil will cause issues with 4-Mix valves.


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## jatoxico (Apr 27, 2014)

Everyone is making sense and the cost difference between a Stihl or Husky product vs some cheapo brand doesn't amount to much. Just a convenience thing since I already have the stuff and figured save myself a trip. 

I tend to agree w/ Redd that the 2 strokes are not too picky. I just want to use a JASO FD spec oil since that's what is called for. I'm guessing that if it's stating it's for air cooled motors and meets Echo and Toro standards it probably is but if it is in fact a JASO FB then the difference between a 1:50 and 1:33 mix is fairly significant.


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## Mag Craft (Apr 27, 2014)

I mix all my fuel for 2 strokes at 35 - 1.    Nothing gets gummed up and rings look good.   
 That really has to do with using a good oil.


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## jatoxico (Apr 27, 2014)

Mag Craft said:


> I mix all my fuel for 2 strokes at 35 - 1.    Nothing gets gummed up and rings look good.
> That really has to do with using a good oil.


A little heavy on the oil can't hurt in my book too. I did notice though that for a while I mistakenly thought my Echo blower called for 1:30. When I went to 1:50 the exhaust cleaned up a bit and felt more zip. Could be in my head though. Sometimes I do some maintenance and have imaginary gains.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 27, 2014)

Mag Craft said:


> I mix all my fuel for 2 strokes at 35 - 1.    Nothing gets gummed up and rings look good.
> That really has to do with using a good oil.



You and me brother. And any two stroke oil that is on the shelf when I need some. Read a post on another site years ago by a former Husqvarna engineer. He said the major challenge was to design something that would last past the warranty period running on the EPA mandated 50:1 mix.

I wouldn't buy syn oil on a bet. It doesn't stay in a two stroke long enough to take any advantage of the features of syn oil. Great in four strokes for not degrading due to heat over long periods, living with the byproducts of combustion in the crankcase and does a better job of cooling in a four stroke. But the fuel does the cooling in a two stroke and oil doesn't hang around in a the crankcase.


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## jatoxico (Apr 27, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Read a post on another site years ago by a former Husqvarna engineer. He said the major challenge was to design something that would last past the warranty period running on the EPA mandated 50:1 mix.



That's an interesting bit of info I hadn't thought of,. So the 1:50 might be more of an EPA thing than anything else. I usually go a little heavy on oil not really trying to hit any particular ratio just a pinch more. Maybe I'll go 1:40 or so. Trying to be more diligent with making sure I have stabilizer in my OPE fuel as well.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 27, 2014)

Everything I own gets mixed gas (even 4 strokes) mixed at 40:1 because it's simple math.  My gas cans are 5 gallon.  1 pint into 5 gallons is 40:1.


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## Chuck Pearson (Apr 27, 2014)

<<I tend to agree w/ Redd that the 2 strokes are not too picky. I just want to use a JASO FD spec oil

Stihl Ultra only meets JASO FB. Do not assume that if the oil doesn't specify what it meets that it is FD.


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## TreePointer (Apr 27, 2014)

A corollary also would be not to assume that an oil doesn't meet a particular standard because it's not listed on the bottle.  It may not have formally been submitted to the independent testing organization for a particular certification.

Other reasons might be that the oil is designed to meet a certain goal, like being biodegradable, at the expense of passing the most stringent emissions criteria.  The emissions criteria for the next lower rating may be sufficient for the intended market.

Also note that FC and FD have no lubricity improvements over the FB rating.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 27, 2014)

JASCO is the Japanese catagory. Ask them what the API catagory is.



JASO FA – original spec established regulating lubricity, detergency, initial torque, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking.

JASO FB – increased lubricity, detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FA.

JASO FC – lubricity and initial torque requirements same as FB, however far higher detergency, exhaust smoke and exhaust system blocking requirements over FB.

JASO FD - same as FC with far higher detergency requirement.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 27, 2014)

Seeing the word "detergency" reminds me of a conversation I had with one of our refinery managers one day. She laughed and said "We put so much of the dang stuff in the gas these days that I have suds overflowing from the tank farm.".


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## jatoxico (Apr 27, 2014)

Always sorry when I start down these roads, stuff can make you nuts. Went to the manuals, the saw wants JASO FD which I think is API TC, the leaf blower wants FC (or maybe FB) and the snow thrower says TCW III I guess because you're running in the cold but also says ISO EGD is OK which is the same as JASO FD spec, I think .


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## BrotherBart (Apr 27, 2014)

Put API TC in the gas and go cut some wood.


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## jatoxico (Apr 27, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> Put API TC in the gas and go cut some wood.



Yeah really! Maybe I'll feed the snow blower what it wants from now on, otherwise I got other things to get OCD over.


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## Mt Bob (Apr 27, 2014)

Was easier in the 70's-80's when all oil was bad.Run syn in everything but my 2 stokes,harder to burn,found out it clogs up exhaust valves(moveable exhaust ports).A high quality standard oil does better,if there are no problems hiding.Do not forget if you run xtra oil in mix you are displacing gas,making the system leaner.And add ethanol and oil is harder to suspend,falls out faster.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 27, 2014)

When Mobil 1 came out in the 70's one of my truck leasing customers was ragging me about going to synthetic in the trucks. Unknown to us he filled the crankcase in their 250 Cummins with Mobil 1 and took off from Dallas to Houston. On the way back he broke an oil line and dumped six and a half gallons of four dollar a quart, in 1970's dollars, syn oil on the Interstate. Never heard a word about it again.

I have never owned a quart of syn oil in my life.


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## Mt Bob (Apr 27, 2014)

I run syn in my vehicles,and run it 2 times as long a reg(standard procedure) so cost wise is the same.Have been doing this for years.Being a mechanic have seen oil go through many changes,the early syns DID leak past seals,parrifin plugged up lots of motors,etc.Experienced syn problems (2 stroke) in snowmobiles and waverunners and outboards.By the way,quick lubes still buy cheap oil and advertise/sell it as another better product!Your better smaller oil companys(like bg) have some very high quality diesel oil for big rigs,50,000 mile plus,just change filter and top off at perscribed intervals.Very expensive,non syn,but saves the truck companys a lot of money.


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## JustWood (Apr 28, 2014)

BrotherBart said:


> When Mobil 1 came out in the 70's one of my truck leasing customers was ragging me about going to synthetic in the trucks. Unknown to us he filled the crankcase in their 250 Cummins with Mobil 1 and took off from Dallas to Houston. On the way back he broke an oil line and dumped six and a half gallons of four dollar a quart, in 1970's dollars, syn oil on the Interstate. Never heard a word about it again.
> 
> I have never owned a quart of syn oil in my life.


Ran it once in one of my rigs. Engine tranny and rears all at the same time. EVERYTHING  it was in started leaking all at the same time. NEVER again.
I've run the cheapest 2 cycle oil in my saws my entire logging career and have never had an engine failure with MILLIONS of board feet of logs/pulp and thousands of cord firewood under a dozen saws belts.
Synthetic is overthinxing things unless required.


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## Halligan (Apr 29, 2014)

If you burn a lot of premix in your saw the Stihl Ultra is worth it. Husqvarna, Jonsered, and Echo oil are good as well. 

Personally, I'd be more worried about the ethanol in the gas vs. what 2 cycle oil to use. The ethanol will cause issue's long before the cheaper Ace oil will. I use regular gas with Stihl Ultra in my string trimmer, handheld and backpack blower because they are used often enough to burn up a gallon a month. My saw's on the other hand are used for a day or two then sit for a month or two. I spoil the saw's with the ethanol free canned fuel. I'm using the VP stuff from Bailey's but I used TruFuel and Motomix before that.


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## Razo (Apr 29, 2014)

I use this:





I agree with Bart that syn matters much more in a 4 cycle than 2 but I'm sold on synthetic. In no way, shape, or form is conventional engine oil better than synthetic. Actually I can think of one, break in oil. Other than that its synthetic and science and lab tests back that up.


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## Clarkbug (Apr 29, 2014)

Gotta love an oil thread....

I used some of the higher end oils, mainly because of the added fuel stabilizers, since I cant get non-ethanol fuel easily.  Then I got some StarTron, and have been using that.  (I guess belt and suspenders).  Late last year I got a deal on a gallon of Echo Powerblend, so that should last me for the next several years for the amount of mix I use.

Use fresh fuel, mix it somewhere between 40:1 and 50:1 with oil that isn't for an outboard, and go cut wood/trim grass/etc.


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## smokedragon (Apr 30, 2014)

WOW.....been using 2 stroke all my life, didn't even know that there was all this "stuff".

I bought a bottle of generic oil last year from Lowe's in the aisle where they sell the weed eaters, chainsaws, etc.  Guess now I have to go home and read the bottle to make sure I ain't destroying my stuff........

I learn a lot on hear, but sometimes ignorance is bliss

SHEESH


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## smokedragon (Apr 30, 2014)

JustWood said:


> ....
> I've run the cheapest 2 cycle oil in my saws my entire logging career and have never had an engine failure with MILLIONS of board feet of logs/pulp and thousands of cord firewood under a dozen saws belts........



But how long do you keep a saw?  If you only run a saw for a few years (before issues with compression and difficulty starting come up) then that doesn't help a guy like me.


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## jatoxico (Apr 30, 2014)

Brother B posted that the lubrication spec of FB, FC & FD are equivalent. The difference is in the amount of detergents added. Assuming that's correct it could explain why the 2013 Husky manual is calling for 1:50 if FD but 1:33 if FB. Adding additional FB makes sure there is enough detergent in the mix not due to a need for additional lube factors.

Since it sounds like most go a bit heavy on oil anyway probably covered either way but seems mixing ratios can safely be raised as you go from FB to FD (e.g. 1:33 for FB, 1:40 FC and 1:50  for FD) would be OK.


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## Jon1270 (Apr 30, 2014)

What's everyone's favorite method of measuring out the oil when the bottle doesn't have a built-in measuring device?  I've resorted to kitchen measuring spoons, but it feels a little silly.


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## bobdog2o02 (Apr 30, 2014)

Jon1270 said:


> What's everyone's favorite method of measuring out the oil when the bottle doesn't have a built-in measuring device?  I've resorted to kitchen measuring spoons, but it feels a little silly.


Graduated shot glass


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## JustWood (Apr 30, 2014)

smokedragon said:


> But how long do you keep a saw?  If you only run a saw for a few years (before issues with compression and difficulty starting come up) then that doesn't help a guy like me.


I have NEVER sold,traded or disposed of a saw for lack of compression EVER . I have a early 90's vintage 066 that I bought new that has over 10 Million board feet of logs/pulp and 2000+ cord of firewood on it that starts/runs like the day I bought it. An '01 046  with 1/3 the wood volume on it and runs like new.
I have sold off saws that I flat out didn't like. Usually within 30 days of purchase.


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## Clarkbug (Apr 30, 2014)

Jon1270 said:


> What's everyone's favorite method of measuring out the oil when the bottle doesn't have a built-in measuring device?  I've resorted to kitchen measuring spoons, but it feels a little silly.



A ratio-rite measuring cup.  Found at your local powersports dealer, or here:  http://www.amazon.com/Ratio-Rite-28-1111-Ratio-Rite-Measuring/dp/B0045L9FJM


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## Clarkbug (Apr 30, 2014)

smokedragon said:


> WOW.....been using 2 stroke all my life, didn't even know that there was all this "stuff".
> 
> I bought a bottle of generic oil last year from Lowe's in the aisle where they sell the weed eaters, chainsaws, etc.  Guess now I have to go home and read the bottle to make sure I ain't destroying my stuff........
> 
> ...



Honestly, making sure you clean your air filter (and there arent any holes in it...) and use fresh fuel will have more of an impact on your saw's lifetime than the rating of your oil.


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## Bigg_Redd (Apr 30, 2014)

Jon1270 said:


> What's everyone's favorite method of measuring out the oil when the bottle doesn't have a built-in measuring device?  I've resorted to kitchen measuring spoons, but it feels a little silly.



I try to buy by the pint and just dump a whole bottle in 5 gallons of gas.  If I end up with quarts it's not too tough to eyeball half a quart.


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## BrotherBart (Apr 30, 2014)

Jon1270 said:


> What's everyone's favorite method of measuring out the oil when the bottle doesn't have a built-in measuring device?  I've resorted to kitchen measuring spoons, but it feels a little silly.



A 40 year old Tupperware measuring cup.


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## JustWood (May 1, 2014)

Clarkbug said:


> Honestly, making sure you clean your air filter (and there arent any holes in it...) and use fresh fuel will have more of an impact on your saw's lifetime than the rating of your oil.


Agreed. I clean my filter every other tank. It's the easiest PM you can do.


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