# FEED IT WOOD AND WALK AWAY



## LOKO (Apr 1, 2009)

New kid on the block - The "Boiler Room" is a great place to hear peoples experiences, learn a few tricks about how to optimize one's particular Wood Fired Boiler (WFB), and  read opinions on Pro's and Con's of heating with wood.  The magnitude of information can be overwhelming however - and can make one a little "LOKO" when trying to decide which System/Manufacturer might be best for their particular application.  We will (hopefully) have a gasification wood fired boiler up and operating for our 1895 farm house and parts of the barn for use in winter 2009/10 - and it will probably be one of the following:  GARN; WOOD GUN; ECONOBURN; EKO; or SOLO-PLUS.  It may/may not have water storage, but that is not the real question for me.  We currently have a base board hot water system and domestic hot water which is heated with a three year old 145 kBTU oil fired boiler - oil useage approx 2,000 gallon per year (2007 and 2008).  We also have a Woodstock Soapstone stove and burn 3-4 cords of wood per year.  We have 12-14 acres of  a mix of 80% hardwood - 20% Pine.  Upstairs windows (sleeping rooms) have old single pane 12 over 12 wavy windows - so those rooms are "cool" - but some fresh air is not all that bad - but that is another and separate issue to deal with as well.  The masonry chimney (double flue) is currently being used by the oil fired boiler and the Woodstock free standing wood stove.  I was sort of "set on" an EKO, but after reading all of the comments in a Boiler Room: thread entitled "Fine Tuning EKO" - I am not sure that this is the best choice for our application - it was a little "scarey' thinking that one has to be constantly adjusting fan speed, primary settings, secondary tube alignment, secondary screws, fan inlet, blue/orange flame, etc  etc - I began tom wonder if the EKO is the right boiler for us - or are these sorts of "fine tuning" applicable to all gasification wood fired boilers???  I ask this question because I am frequently "on the road"  - some times for extended periods and it will be the "Ladies of the house' who will have the duty of "keeping the home fires burning" during my absence.  And so although I could (maybe) sort out most of these fine tuning issues when I am around - what I am really interested in is which of the above systems can best be categorized as "Open the door - put in the wood - close the door - set a timer - repeat as necessary.  We intend to retain the oil fired boiler as a backup, but would like to use the wood fired boiler "year round"  as primary source of heat and warm domestic water.  Protected indoor space is not an issue for any of the above stystems (including the GARN). I probably need something on order of 200KBTU for a system with water storage - or perhaps something smaller without the water storage.  The downside of system without water storage seems to be year round use for Spring/Fall and domestic water (my understanding).  If one believes what they read - this (external water storage) may noy not be the case for GARN or WOOD GUN ???

Biggest and probably deciding factor will be however - which system best satisfies the "Open the door - put in the wood - close the door - set a timer - repeat as necessary" criteria.

Thanks in advance for your helpful thoughts

Best regards - "Confused LOKO"


----------



## muleman51 (Apr 1, 2009)

IMO, I would go with a Garn.  It contains the storage, its outside the house, and pretty much feed and walk away. I say this because my system is a pain in the --- and al least I do't worry about splitting wood or bridging issues. My brother in law has a Garn and likes it, seems to be fairly trouble free. And you will definitely have as much money in another system as you will in a Garn before you are done. Hind sight is wonderful, I sure wish I had put in the Garn.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 1, 2009)

muleman51 from confused LOKO - thank you - will keep forum posted on our decision - yes "Hind sight" is a greta teacher


----------



## WoodNotOil (Apr 1, 2009)

I agree with the Garn as a good option for you.  However, do not shy away from the other brands of gasifiers.  We are obsessed with tweaking these things for optimum efficiency and that is what the threads you see are.  These can be setup and all you do is keeping filling them.  When storage is involved, the fire is often allowed to go out while storage takes over and then a new fire has to be lit.  The down draft ones can smoke a little when reloading, and the ones that have the fan on the exhaust don't smoke.  These vary a lot from company to company, so look carefully.

The Garn has self contained storage and has the fan on the exhaust.  The least expensive (and most time consuming) options are to get a gasifier and build your own storage doing all the plumbing and system design yourself.  Most of us here that chose that option did it to save money.  If you have to go commercial for everything, then the Garn is a great option.

All I do with my Tarm with homemade storage is build a couple fires a day and the rest takes care of itself at this point.  So once fully setup correctly, these are more effortless than the posts sometimes make them seem.  I hope that helps some.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 1, 2009)

1 Apr  WoodNotOil - I like your forum name and that is my goal - thankls for your encouraging note - will keep you posted :  confused LOKO


----------



## WoodNotOil (Apr 1, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> 1 Apr  WoodNotOil - I like your forum name and that is my goal - thankls for your encouraging note - will keep you posted :  confused LOKO



I have not burned a drop of oil since installing my storage last summer and plan to keep it that way!


----------



## Piker (Apr 2, 2009)

Just remember that if you use a system with storage, you will need to make sure you have enough radiation in the house to be able to use lower water temps.  The lower the better.  Alot of folks get all excited about storage, but it doesn't really do you much good if you don't have radiation to match.  Radiant floor is probably the best type of heat transfer for storage systems.

cheers


----------



## flyingcow (Apr 2, 2009)

i spend less than 10 minutes a day tending mine, now that I'm used to it. I slit the kindlin', put paper on top of it, light, leave the door cracked a little(per manual),go get my wood, put it in front of boiler, put wood in, shut door. Fill firebox about 3/4 full this week. Hopefully less next week.


----------



## sweetheat (Apr 2, 2009)

need not be confused loko, as little as 5 minutes of your time each day even in the coldest months, I spend more time bring in the wood than tending the boiler. Clean it, feed it, light it, and walk away. storage, radiant heat, well insulated building, now I can go 3 days between fires. sweetheat


----------



## timberr (Apr 2, 2009)

Loko.

I am a happy Eko owner, it is very easy to feel overwhelmed reading all the info here in the Boiler Room. Once I set my Primary, Secondaries and Fan opening I tweaked them once and haven't touched them in Two months. I do fool with the fan speed but that is less then 30 sec. This is a nice feature to have, slowing the fan down once you have a good fire helps prolong the burn time. I run my boiler two times a day. Burning wood is more work the Fossil Fuel but I sur eis more satisfying!

I bought my Eko from a great guy in Greenfield, NH he offers great support or will install.

Good Luck on your decision.


----------



## DaveBP (Apr 2, 2009)

> it was a little “scarey’ thinking that one has to be constantly adjusting fan speed, primary settings, secondary tube alignment, secondary screws, fan inlet, blue/orange flame, etc etc



Realize that if this was a "rock pile forum" we same guys would be rearranging and tweaking our piles every few days just to report on the new center of gravity and shape of the shadows. Just because some guys ( and yes, it is almost entirely men ) have to keep fiddling with their boiler rigs doesn't mean a properly installed system can't just be loaded and fired and walked away from. 

One of the greatest values of this forum is that it is helping to define what "properly" installed systems are. More than one way to do it right. And lots of ways to do it better. When you get to where it's good enough for you, just develop a personal routine and live with it. 

And enjoy watching the rest of us fiddling with our rockpiles.

 Again.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 2, 2009)

2 April - Good morning to all the forum members (muleman1, WoodNotOil, Piker, timberr, sweetheart, flyingcow, and DaveBP) who were kind enough to take the time to labor through my initial post - and then take the time to provide infomative posts on my pending installation.

For Piker and timberr - your comments regarding the Forum thread  "Fine Tuning EKO" were reassuring, and I'll keep it on my list of boilers.

NEW ISSUE
Regarding the he post from Piker :
"Just remember that if you use a system with storage, you will need to make sure you have enough radiation in the house to be able to use lower water temps.  The lower the better.  Alot of folks get all excited about storage, but it doesn’t really do you much good if you don’t have radiation to match.  Radiant floor is probably the best type of heat transfer for storage systems.

cheers"

This comment from Piker raises another question for "confused LOKO" regarding pros and cons of storage - particularly for our application where we already have baseboard hot water installed. What I am hearing is that:

        1. In general if one wants to be able to use the wood fired boiler throughout the year for domestic hot water and for heating the house Winter, Spring, and Fall - then storage is almost a "must" for most or (all??) boilers.   

        2.   If I choose a system with water storage - then I necessarily need to have enough radiation in the house to be able to use lower water temperatures.

So please help "confused LOKO" under following assumption/conditions:

        1.  We do want to become almost free of using oil - unless of course we are away for some days in dead of winter
        2. We will retain the baseboard heating - could that be perhaps added to or somehow modified to utilize the lower temperatures indicated by Piker

QUESTIONS:  
                 1.  Why is there a "lower" temperature when using storage?? and is this true for all boiler/storage systems??
                 2. In my case - perhaps it is better to go without storage - but this could defeat our desire to use the boiler for domestic hot water throughout the year and heating during the so called "shoulder seasons - Spring and Fall.
                   3. Should/could  "open" (non pressurized) water storage tank be an option or consideration to deal with the low temperature/sufficient radiation issue??

Bottom line for the moment: If (1) I believe what I read in manufacturers web sites - and (2) water storage is not the best choice for me due to low temperature/sufficient radiation consideration, and (3) considering my  "FEED IT WOOD AND WALK AWAY" Philosophy - maybe  a WOOD GUN wiithout water storage is a not bad choice????

Grateful for any comments and feedback re questions - Many thanks - some things are more clear then before, some new questions have been brought to light  - and  I remain "confusedLOKO"


----------



## SolarAndWood (Apr 2, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> QUESTIONS:
> 1.  Why is there a "lower" temperature when using storage?? and is this true for all boiler/storage systems??
> 2. In my case - perhaps it is better to go without storage - but this could defeat our desire to use the boiler for domestic hot water throughout the year and heating during the so called "shoulder seasons - Spring and Fall.
> 3. Should/could  "open" (non pressurized) water storage tank be an option or consideration to deal with the low temperature/sufficient radiation issue??
> ...



Good morning LOKO.  I am going through the same process you are right now and experiencing similar periods of question and enlightenment thanks to the kind folks here.  This is my current thinking given what I have learned here:

Regardless of brand, all of the wood boilers are most efficient when running wide open.  This is fine if you have a place to immediately use the heat, not so great when your house gets to temperature and the boiler starts to idle.  The storage systems allow the boiler to run wide open longer, then keep your house at temperature longer without a fire going.  

The limitations are the practical top end storage temperature and the minimum temperature your distribution system requires.  The useful capacity is then the difference between the two times the # of gallons.  As I am starting with a completely gutted house, I am installing bigger storage and radiant floors to maximize this useful capacity.  I have no idea what your house looks like or what other factors affect your plan.  However, it may not be that hard for you to install tubing underneath the first floor without tearing your house apart.  This would make storage much more effective and your boiler more efficient.

The cost of storage is non-trivial especially if building it yourself is not practical.  Given my bigger project, I don't have the time it would take to devote to it.  However, you can greatly reduce the cost of the commercially available systems by not oversizing your boiler as a big part of the storage cost is the heat exchangers.

Depending on your site's southern exposure, you may also want to consider solar DHW for the non-heating season.  I found that a year round solar DHW did not make sense for me because of the additional cost of dealing with freeze protection and the relatively limited solar radiation in the winter.  However, a much smaller simpler solar system will satisfy our needs during the summer, then use the boiler the rest of the year when I am burning anyway.

Good luck with your project...Eric


----------



## VtRv (Apr 2, 2009)

Confused - This is my first winter with my Tarm and 500 gal. of storage. I must say I couldn't be happier. I have baseboard in my house with NO radiant floor heat. This time of year when it gets down in the 30's at night and 40's to 50's during the day I'm building one fire at night before I got to bed. This seems to be plenty to get me through the night and the following day. 

During the rest of the winter I would build a fire when I got home from work about 6:00 PM and and fill it again before bed which would get my tank up to the 180- 190 degree mark. Again that was plenty to get me through the following day. Only during the coldest of days -0 would I either add wood in the morning or start the fire a little earlier in the day to get my tank up to temp. 

I was concerned about starting fires all the time prior to using my boiler. Now that it's in service I'm finding it isn't an issue for me, it only takes a couple of minutes to get the fire going and walk away. Of course for the first month or so I was so fascinated with the system that I was practically camping out in the basement watching the temp of the boiler and storage and playing with it. Not because I needed to but because I just wanted to. 

My brother has the same unit I do without storage and he is happy with it but says he wishes the wood box was bigger so that he could get a longer burn time. I think he's going to look into storage.

I'm interested to see how the summer goes using the boiler and storage for DHW. I plan to give it a try until I get sick of it.

Good luck with your selection. I was in your place last year. The one thing I'm finding here on the forum and from other friends that have both inside and OWB's is that most everyone is happy with what they end up with as long as it is plumbed correctly.


----------



## Nofossil (Apr 2, 2009)

Ditto on all the comments about compulsive tinkering. I just spent a chunk of time analyzing different mathematical algorithms for closed loop control of variable duty cycle  heating zones (Adaptive outdoor reset control performs about the same as adaptive PI control, but is more sensitive to errors in assumptions about the thermal mass of the heated structure). This is NOT a typical group of wood heat users.

I'm running with 880 gallons of storage and baseboards, not radiant. I'm planning to add a radiant zone, but it's not necessary by any means. It just extends the effective capacity of storage.

I also ran for a year without storage. It was less convenient, but it worked fine.

There's an important distinction between pressurized and unpressurized storage. If you have an indoor boiler, it's designed to run as part of a pressurized heating system. If you can get used proane tanks or other suitable pressure vessels, you can pumb in your stirage as part of that pressurized system. That eliminates the cost and performance limitations of having a heat exchanger between your storage and the rest of your system. HIGHLY recommended in my never-so-humble opinion.


----------



## SolarAndWood (Apr 2, 2009)

nofossil said:
			
		

> There's an important distinction between pressurized and unpressurized storage. If you have an indoor boiler, it's designed to run as part of a pressurized heating system. If you can get used proane tanks or other suitable pressure vessels, you can pumb in your stirage as part of that pressurized system. That eliminates the cost and performance limitations of having a heat exchanger between your storage and the rest of your system. HIGHLY recommended in my never-so-humble opinion.



So, only 1 exchanger for the boiler and then I assume 1 in the water heater tank?  If you never intend to use the boiler and solar DHW simultaneously, can you get away with just using the exchanger in the water heater tank and shut off valves to isolate them?


----------



## Nofossil (Apr 2, 2009)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> So, only 1 exchanger for the boiler and then I assume 1 in the water heater tank?  If you never intend to use the boiler and solar DHW simultaneously, can you get away with just using the exchanger in the water heater tank and shut off valves to isolate them?



With pressurized storage, you don't need any heat exchanger for the boiler (unless it's an unpressurized boiler).

There are a lot of different approaches to domestic hot water. If you use pressurized storage, it's difficult to do any kind of preheat exchanger for cold water going into the DHW tank. Best approach is to get a DHW tank with an internal HX coil. There are a few brands - SuperStor is one. With this, you can heat the DHW from the boiler or from storage. That's what I have in my system.

Someone also makes a DHW tank intended for use with solar systems that has two HX coils in it.

You can also use a regular electric tank with external heat exchangers - sidearms work great, and you could probably use a sidearm to charge it from a solar panel. Sidearms don't transfer much heat per minute, so they aren't good for rapid recovery. You can also use a flat plate HX with a small potable water circulator to get heat into and electric DHW tank more quickly. The benefit of electric tanks is that they're cheap and have a backup heat source built in.


----------



## SolarAndWood (Apr 2, 2009)

nofossil said:
			
		

> Best approach is to get a DHW tank with an internal HX coil. There are a few brands - SuperStor is one. With this, you can heat the DHW from the boiler or from storage. That's what I have in my system.



I assume your solar collectors are connected to your storage tank not the superstor?  I like the superstor approach as it effectively increases the storage of the overall system and my demand for hot water is at the opposite end of the house from my solar collectors.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 2, 2009)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> confused LOKO said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



2 April
Hi Eric - believe I have my arms around the rationale for using storage - and I see your point re necessity for a larger boiler (more $$) and the added cost for water storage system and  associated plumbing if one chooses a system with storage.   What is not clear is why a system with storage may not be appropriate for an already installed baseboard hot water system (please see earlier post from "PIKER".  

Re installing radiant floor on first floor of our farm house - it is feasible (I suspect) - but not something I would like to take on right now - but I will think about that as an alternative.

Thank you - LOKO


----------



## SolarAndWood (Apr 2, 2009)

It gets back to the limitations of storage.  From what I have read here, maximum storage temperatures seem to be generally in the 190 degree range, with some achieving a little higher and others not being able to maintain quite that high.  So, if your current baseboards require 180 degrees to function properly, the small difference between the maximum temperature of your tank and the temperature required means there is not a lot of useful heat in the tank and the boiler will have to be fired anyway.  Whereas, if your first floor had tubes that worked at 120 degrees, there would be 7 times as much usable heat in your tank.  

Again, I don't know what temperature your baseboards require nor what  storage temperatures you could eventually achieve, but this is the general idea.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 2, 2009)

Piker said:
			
		

> Just remember that if you use a system with storage, you will need to make sure you have enough radiation in the house to be able to use lower water temps.  The lower the better.  Alot of folks get all excited about storage, but it doesn't really do you much good if you don't have radiation to match.  Radiant floor is probably the best type of heat transfer for storage systems.
> 
> cheers



Hi "PIKER" - thank you for your post - it did however add another element to my already "confused LOKO" state on choosing a system that is best suited for our application.  I recognize that you are an Econoburn user, but wondered if your comment re water storage ("it doesn't really do you much good if you don't have radiation to match"), also applies to a GARN.??

Re matching the storage to the radiation - short of putting in radiant floor (not likely to happen) - how else could I increase my current baseboard radiation to match a boiler system with water storage - add more baseboard?? or ???.. More baseboard is not practical in most rooms - any other thoughts?

Do you or any other readrers have an opinion of using the WOOD GUN without water storage and could it be used for year round DHW and Winter/Spring/Fall heating.  This could be an attractive alternative and in addition potentially eliminates need for a long flue and rooftop chimney.

I really do not want to do this more then once (in this lifetime) and appreciate everyone's helpful posts.
       Be well - confused LOKO


----------



## flyingcow (Apr 2, 2009)

I have an 1800sq/ft/2 story house with baseboard. Since the building of the house I installed staple up radiant flr to my kitchen area. This was done a few years ago, while still burning oil, mainly because of the cold floor feeling. But my main heat source is baseboard. I started using wood boiler in mid jan, temps run -15 to as much as -38 below. My system kept up well, even while I still was learning the curve of making this perform on the least amount of wood. You should have no problem with trying to run this with baseboard. BUT....do a heat study or whatever it's called. You need to know what your system is doing now. My baseboard was set up on about 160 degree temps. Some may set up on 145 or even as much as 175, big difference. I suspect this is what Piker is talking about. I got lucky and things worked well, I didn't do my homework. I have a basic idea of what would work, and it did. It can be a very expensive guess, if you don't do your homework. 

Big note, of not already stated, find dry wood now! Today!! I don't care what type of system your doing. You have to gather wood, do it now. Split and pile so as to dry as quickly as possible. This is as imprtant as anything you're doing for figures.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 2, 2009)

flyingcow  - have about 12 cords of recently felled hardwood cut and split - hope that it will be OK for use in the fall??  I have heard that a "TEEPEE" pile will dry more quickly than the traditional method of stacking??
Thank you - LOKO


----------



## LOKO (Apr 2, 2009)

SolarandWood - presently out of country - will check next week on current baseboard system to determine operating temperature requirement.  Will continue to keep installation of radiant  floor as an alternative, but right now not my first choice.
Thank you - LOKO


----------



## Nofossil (Apr 2, 2009)

SolarAndWood said:
			
		

> I assume your solar collectors are connected to your storage tank not the superstor?  I like the superstor approach as it effectively increases the storage of the overall system and my demand for hot water is at the opposite end of the house from my solar collectors.



Correct, although I'd heat my DHW tank directly if it were high enough for thermosiphoning to work AND it had a second coil. The problem with heating storage is that the solar panels produce 170 degree water that gets diluted to 120 or 130 in the big storage tank - barely hot enough to be useful. It does provide 100% of my DHW for most of the summer, but performance would be better if I heated the DHW tank directly, then dumped any leftover heat into storage.

On my system, the incoming 55 degree well water is preheated via another coil in the storage tank before going into the DHW tank. This has the effect of prolonging the life of a tank of DHW, but it also creates the problem that I sometimes have hundreds of gallons of warm water but no hot water.

For LOKO: I use stored heat in my baseboards all the way down to 120 degrees. They don't put out a lot of heat at that temp, but it does make a difference. I'm eventually adding a radiant zone to the main floor to get better performance.


----------



## WoodNotOil (Apr 2, 2009)

nofossil said:
			
		

> For LOKO: I use stored heat in my baseboards all the way down to 120 degrees. They don't put out a lot of heat at that temp, but it does make a difference. I'm eventually adding a radiant zone to the main floor to get better performance.



There are also high output baseboards that could be installed.  However, you will most likely be fine with what you have as good installers often oversize the zones a bit to ensure there will be sufficient heat when the thermostat calls.  An oversized zone just means it will run in shorter durations to heat the space.  Running lower water temp it will have to run longer to accomplish the same thing.  This is not a big deal and you can always upgrade or add baseboard and/or add a radiant zone as needed to extend the heating time from storage.  It doesn't have to be done right off.

I ran my tarm for a couple of seasons without storage at all.  It just had to be filled 2-4 times per day depending on how cold it was and I used more wood.  These systems can be installed in phases as time and money allow.  Just plan for everything you want in your system design and add when you can.


----------



## SolarAndWood (Apr 2, 2009)

nofossil said:
			
		

> Correct, although I'd heat my DHW tank directly if it were high enough for thermosiphoning to work AND it had a second coil.



I could do this but my demand would be 70 - 110 feet away.  Or, I could add collector area and put it on the SW face at the end of the house with the demand.  It would seem that either way I need a tank with two coils as 1500 gallons of storage isn't going to help the dilution problem...


----------



## slowzuki (Apr 3, 2009)

My opinion for your situation is:

1) Insulation and storm windows fitted where you have single pane glass.

2) Garn

The storm windows have such a fast payback period you can't afford not to do it.

The Garn has a longer payback but is probably the best wood heat option with minimal fuss setting up or operating.


----------



## Fred61 (Apr 3, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> Piker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As the former owner of a Wood Gun, I can tell you that unless they've changed the unit since mine was built (and I doubt that they  have) your fire will not re-ignite after a long idle. It closes so tight that unless there is a call for heat in a short amount of time it will go out. I even had it go out during periods of low demand during the heating season if I happened to be using a species of firewood that didn't have good coaling characteristics. Getting up to a cold house in the morning and seeing a full firebox can be frustrating.


----------



## Piker (Apr 3, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> Piker said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Water storage is water storage, regardless of what boiler you use. You will either have enough radiation to use it or not.  I did not mean to imply that baseboard cannot be used with thermal storage, just that radiant is generally the best way to go because of the lower usable water temps.  If you have enough baseboard to keep your house warm with 120* water at design temps, then you probably have a little more baseboard installed than most people, and storage will work fine.  IF on the other hand, you notice that's it's difficult to keep the temperature up in the house on the coldest day, even if your boiler is pumping out 180* water, then you will require more radiation for sure.  

A heat load study is key.  Find out what your worst case scenario load is going to be, and go from there.  You will then be able to compare the output of your current baseboard at any given water temp to the overall load.  Doing this will provide you with the lowest usable water temp on the coldest day, for your current system.  If you need more radiation so you can lower the usable temps, you can either add the required amount of baseboard, radiant floor, or air exchange.

There are several happy garn customers here on the forums for sure.  That having been said, adding storage to a downdraft gasser is not as big a deal as some people think, especially if you are using pressurized storage tanks.  In fact, a series of small pressurized storage tanks are much easier to handle than one big unit with integrated storage.  Also, adding storage in stages is a nice feature too.  Run for a season or two without storage... add 500 gallons one year, another 500 gallons the next year. 

I don't think you will need very much storage just to heat your domestic hot water for the summer.  I would say most people could get by with 500 gallons of storage for DHW, and only have to fire every 3 or 4 days... depending on usage of course.

The bottom line is, that whatever you do, take your time and do it right.  Any furnace that is installed improperly will not be able to perform as well as it should.  

cheers


----------



## LOKO (Apr 3, 2009)

WoodNotOil said:
			
		

> nofossil said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



3 April - Installing in phases sounds like a wise way to proceed - have had some really helpful advice and starting to feel a bit less confused - beginning to think that GARN is probably best choice for my application.

Thank you - a "Bit less confuised LOKO"


----------



## LOKO (Apr 3, 2009)

slowzuki said:
			
		

> My opinion for your situation is:
> 
> 1) Insulation and storm windows fitted where you have single pane glass.
> 
> ...



3 Apr - Hi slowzuki - I think you just hit the "jackpot - starting to see a GARN in my future  - can you really get away without a chimney stack for the GARN  - that would be a big savings.

Thank you - beginning to feel less confused - LOKO


----------



## LOKO (Apr 3, 2009)

Fred61 said:
			
		

> confused LOKO said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



3 Apr - Fred61 - thank you for the note - Gunwood is still on my list of options - will talk to some recent (new) owners - but starting to see a GARN in my future

Thank you for your post - LOKO


----------



## LOKO (Apr 3, 2009)

muleman51 said:
			
		

> IMO, I would go with a Garn.  It contains the storage, its outside the house, and pretty much feed and walk away. I say this because my system is a pain in the --- and al least I do't worry about splitting wood or bridging issues. My brother in law has a Garn and likes it, seems to be fairly trouble free. And you will definitely have as much money in another system as you will in a Garn before you are done. Hind sight is wonderful, I sure wish I had put in the Garn.



23 Apr - Hi muleman51 - beginning to think you were right on - starting to see a GARN in my future (if I can find one) - is it really possible to operate these without a "chimney"??  

Thanks for your post - a little less then LOKO


----------



## LOKO (Apr 3, 2009)

WoodNotOil said:
			
		

> I agree with the Garn as a good option for you.  However, do not shy away from the other brands of gasifiers.  We are obsessed with tweaking these things for optimum efficiency and that is what the threads you see are.  These can be setup and all you do is keeping filling them.  When storage is involved, the fire is often allowed to go out while storage takes over and then a new fire has to be lit.  The down draft ones can smoke a little when reloading, and the ones that have the fan on the exhaust don't smoke.  These vary a lot from company to company, so look carefully.
> 
> The Garn has self contained storage and has the fan on the exhaust.  The least expensive (and most time consuming) options are to get a gasifier and build your own storage doing all the plumbing and system design yourself.  Most of us here that chose that option did it to save money.  If you have to go commercial for everything, then the Garn is a great option.
> 
> All I do with my Tarm with homemade storage is build a couple fires a day and the rest takes care of itself at this point.  So once fully setup correctly, these are more effortless than the posts sometimes make them seem.  I hope that helps some.



3 Apr - WoodNotOil - believe there is a GARN in my future - thank you for your interest in helping point nme in the right direction. - can one really operate the GARN without a chimney - that will be a big savings.
Thank youj - a bit less confused - LOKO


----------



## Duetech (Apr 4, 2009)

confused LOKO,
The choice you make is forever going to be yours regardless of the input that you get for making a choice. Garn is good but so are the gasifiers that do not include storage. Fine tuning is just that. Fine tuning! It is not an every day occurrence and frankly most are set to run as is when received. Tweaking is optional but beneficial. Without storage I have taken my EKO40 from 8-10 hour burns to 14 hours. During the summer to supply dhw I will have one small daily fire. the choice should be based on function and output and the discipline you are going exercise towards fuel quality. Gasifiers are not OWB's, are not wood stoves and are not fire places. But now that mine is tuned I load it and basically walk away. The qualifier in the winter and cooler weather is I have a bed of coals to put fresh wood on. In warmer weather I start a fire, just like any other wood burning appliance, and don't walk away until the fire is going. The effort you make in economic functionality will reward you with less hard work and more effective output. I ran my EKO 24-7 for 1 1/2 years and was happy but then I found I could tweak it and I have not regretted the decision to do so and now I don't adjust the dials. If you get a Garn you may want to see if you can make it work better. People get Cadillac's and get them tuned every now and then. People with oil and gas heat systems get them tuned once in a while too. Wood is fuel. Consistent tweaking is "mother henning" but it can be fun. Enjoy what ever heating system you buy for your reasons.


----------



## muleman51 (Apr 5, 2009)

You actually can just vent a Garn out the wall. Thats what my BIL does and seems to get by with it. He has close neighbors too.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Apr 10, 2009)

Fröling is the flat-out simplest to operate.  Load it, light it, wait about two-and-a-half minutes for it to fully establish the fire, and walk away.  It's a complex boiler with a high level of automation, so it does all the "tweaking" for you, and requires minimal input from the user.  Even has a little bargraph (like a cell phone) to tell you how much energy is stored in the tanks.

Garn is probably the second-simplest, because it's just a _simple_ design.  I say that respectfully - it possesses what engineers call "elegant simplicity" and gets the job down with the minimal amount of moving parts and such.

Either would be an excellent choice for ease-of-use.

Joe


----------



## LOKO (Apr 11, 2009)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Fröling is the flat-out simplest to operate.  Load it, light it, wait about two-and-a-half minutes for it to fully establish the fire, and walk away.  It's a complex boiler with a high level of automation, so it does all the "tweaking" for you, and requires minimal input from the user.  Even has a little bargraph (like a cell phone) to tell you how much energy is stored in the tanks.
> 
> Garn is probably the second-simplest, because it's just a _simple_ design.  I say that respectfully - it possesses what engineers call "elegant simplicity" and gets the job down with the minimal amount of moving parts and such.
> 
> ...


10 Apr -  Hi Joe - Thank you for the note - right now GARN is at the top of my list - trying to get my arms around two items:  (1) will it provide adequate water  which is "hot enough" for my currently nstalled baseboard hot water??  - I read and hear conflicting comments and differing opinions in that regard - and (2) what will be the total cost at the end of the day:  boiler, pad, plumbing, heat exchanger, pumps, mechanical room, insulation, etc.  Any feedback on this would be appreciated.

Many thanks - LOKO


----------



## Gooserider (Apr 11, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> BrownianHeatingTech said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Essentially what you need to do is the heat loss analysis that others have suggested - this will give you your BTU/hr heating requirement - and you can then look at the amount of baseboard heating you currently have installed and see how much heat it can supply at different operating temperatures.  You might have to look up your brand of baseboard if possible to see what it's exact specs are, but I think there are also "guestimation" numbers you can use if you don't know what kind it is.  See how the baseboard output compares to the heating requirement of your house, and that will give you some idea of how hot your water needs to be...

Essentially you can think of the storage tank (whether it's a remote tank off a regular boiler, or the built in storage of a Garn) as being like a battery that you charge with BTU's and then run off of until the "charge" is below the point you need to be running at.  ANY boiler setup will presumably give you enough heat to run on when it's burning, the question is how long can you run off the battery?  This is determined by the the size of the storage and the difference between your "charged" temperature, and your operating "current draw" temperature - the lower your operating temperature, the longer your storage tank "battery" will last, just like a car battery will run your parking lights for a lot longer than the headlights.

However we CAN'T tell you what the battery life will be until you tell us your BTU/hr demand and the minimum operating temperature of your baseboards.  Your minimum temperature is going to be a function of how much heat your baseboards can put out, and how many feet you have installed.  If the installer put in a lot of extra footage, you will have a fairly low operating temperature, and thus will be able to run off the tank for a long time.  OTOH, if he just barely put in enough to get by, then you will need to run it hot in order to get the most out of it, and the storage won't help you as much.  (Note that this is all based on your "worst case" conditions - the coldest days of your season; as the temperature warms up, your operating temperature can go down, and you'll definitely get more benefit from the storage)

Another BIG factor is something else that has been suggested several times already - adding insulation, improving your airsealing, fixing the windows, etc...  All of those will improve your heat loss figures, and the less heat you are losing, the cooler you can run the baseboard, with all the benefits mentioned above - quite aside from the direct efficiency benefits, improving your insulation also has the same impact on your heating system's performance as putting in a more powerful system with more baseboards, and so forth...

Gooserider


----------



## heaterman (Apr 11, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> BrownianHeatingTech said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



  As to the adequate water temp part of the question, a Garn will provide the same water temps as any other boiler, pressurized or not, that is operated at normal (160-200*) water temps. The real question you need to address in that regard is this; how much spare capacity did the installer of your BB system leave you? If he designed the BB right at the edge of providing enough heat at 180* water temp then you are going to be forced no matter what you buy, to maintain that temp.  
  Add up the total feet of active baseboard in your house and multiply by 450 to arrive at a heat output with what I would call a little "cushion". Then do a heat loss calculation on your house to find what your heating load is at design temperatures for your area. With those two numbers in hand you can make a fairly informed decision as to what water temp you will need. Bear in mind that the warmer it is outside the lower water temp you will need. Also bear in mind that BB heat output rises and falls with water temp. You can find chart on the www that will show outputs at water temps from 120 to 220* .
  When I do a design and installation of a new hydronic heating system I use 140* water as the reference point. Some will argue that is too low but the lower the water temp is the more efficient any heating system becomes. For example, an Econoburn 150 that I tested recently showed combustion efficiency of 88% plus firing into 120* water. The same boiler with the same wood load later showed about 83% firing into 190* water. Same goes for all other boilers I have ever done a combustion test on be they gas, oil or wood fired.
  As far as costs go, they can vary so widely from project to project that each installation has to be looked at on a case by case basis. "One size fits all" is a recipe for disaster. _Witness some of the folks on this site who are having fun trying to ram loads of 150,000 BTU through 1" tubing._ Choosing the size of the HX is critical to getting the most from your boiler. Typically quoted heat outputs are for a 20 * drop from side A to side B. This effectively reduces the capacity of any boiler by making it necessary to run at higher temps in order to get the desired output from the load side of the HX. Lot's of variables to contend with on your project and/or that of anyone else.  
  Take your time, think it through enjoy the process and you will be OK. I have absolutely no doubt that you would be very pleased with a Garn, especially in the long run. There is nearly nothing to break and what moving parts there are are very inexpensive compared to some of the 'high tech' stuff on the market.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 11, 2009)

heaterman said:
			
		

> confused LOKO said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



11 APR   For recent post from Heaterman and Gooserider and all the others who have been so generous with their time - it is time for LOKO to do some serious homwork on determining my BTU/Hr heating requirement.  Been just sort of "Flying by the seat of my pants" on that critical part of the formula -  and that is not the right answer if I want to be happy in the middle of winter at -20 F.  Unfotunately there is probably no single formula for my situation as we live in an old New England farmhouse and there are a number of different room configurations in terms of window types, wall insulation and desired temperature.  What is conssitent is that the "sleeping rooms" are upstairs, all are single pane windows, the ceiling is insulated with blown cellulose (not sure how much), and a temperature of 64 F is considered adequate for these rooms.  I do intend to do something about the upstairs windows.  The downstairs rooms in general have thermopane windows - but probably not all exterior walls have insulation - I would like to have a temperature of 70 F for these rooms.  I do have a Woodstock Soapstone Fireview which I have kept going the bulk of the Winter and during cool days Fall and Spring.

So any suggestions for a good site where I can find a useful and easy to use tool for crunching some numbers is appreciated.  I have already measured the rooms dimensions, window areas, door areas, and length of installed baseboard - I will try to determine type of baseboard and its output as suggested.

Yes - make haste slowly - is good advice....

Thanks for all the helpful hints - LOKO


----------



## muleman51 (Apr 11, 2009)

There is great advise on this sight. One of my concerns in picking a boiler is how small you have to split your wood. I prefer to not have to split, I have enough trouble just getting the wood cut in the first place. Iprefer to be able to use wood as large as possible. I do beleive that a garn is more foregiving on wood size than a frohling, although I have no experience with a frohling. Jim


----------



## heaterman (Apr 11, 2009)

muleman51 said:
			
		

> There is great advise on this sight. One of my concerns in picking a boiler is how small you have to split your wood. I prefer to not have to split, I have enough trouble just getting the wood cut in the first place. Iprefer to be able to use wood as large as possible. I do beleive that a garn is more foregiving on wood size than a frohling, although I have no experience with a frohling. Jim



A Garn firebox is sized so that you could crawl in and pull the wood in behind you. 

At one time Slant Fin, the baseboard/boiler company had a free download on their website. I do not know if it's still up there as i heard they were updating it.
A rough rule of thumb............would be 35 BTU's per sq ft of heated space for an older farmhouse type structure.  Be aware that I zealously preach against using rules of thumb but that would be a place to start. Very few structures that I have done a Manual J calculation on have exceeded that figure and most are in the high 20's.

One other thing from your questions above...it is perfectly acceptable to sidewall vent a Garn with no stack. At least half of the ones we have installed are done that way.


----------



## Gooserider (Apr 12, 2009)

I would second the Slant-fin program reccomendation.  It lets you do room by room calculations, so you can allow for your different construction styles.  Some of it's choices for values are limited, but they give at least a reasonable first approximation.  I've also heard a few people say that it gives estimates that are a bit on the high side, however that won't be a big issue for you, as it will certainly be close enough.

Another way it can be used, though it isn't "officially supported" is to see what impact different home improvements might have on your heat loss numbers - i.e. change the type of windows in a room from single pane to modern low-e types, and see how the heat loss estimate changes.

Downside is that I just checked the Slant-Fin website, and they seem to have taken the program down for now, though there is a note saying it will be back soon.  :-/   I'm sure someone here could get you a copy though, as lots of us have downloaded it.  I MAY have a copy of the distribution archive, I'm not sure - It's a 7.8 Meg Windows executable, not sure if that's the self extracting archive, or the actual program (Linux archives are so much nicer, as it's easy to ID a gzipped file...)  It's way to big to attach here, send me a PM with your regular e-mail and I can send it to you if nobody else can come up with a copy of the download archive.

Gooserider


----------



## LOKO (Apr 13, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I would second the Slant-fin program reccomendation.  It lets you do room by room calculations, so you can allow for your different construction styles.  Some of it's choices for values are limited, but they give at least a reasonable first approximation.  I've also heard a few people say that it gives estimates that are a bit on the high side, however that won't be a big issue for you, as it will certainly be close enough.
> 
> Another way it can be used, though it isn't "officially supported" is to see what impact different home improvements might have on your heat loss numbers - i.e. change the type of windows in a room from single pane to modern low-e types, and see how the heat loss estimate changes.
> 
> ...


12 April

Gooserider/Heaterman - thank you for the recent posts - Re Slant-Fin website - that is the type of baseboard installed in our house.  Yes I would appreciate a copy of the program - but unfortunately I am a MAC user and there are no PC's in the house using windows application software.  So - the slant fin calculator will not help - but I will see if I can "Google" a site where I might find something which can be used on a MAC

For Heaterman - regarding your "rule of thumb" 35 BTU per foot square - not sure how one uses that factor: For example suppose we are talking about a room that is for example 10x10 (100 ft square) - now I have 35x100 = 3500 BTU - but how do I equate that number (3500 BTU) to the lineal feet of baseboard??  Also - would that be the amount of heat one would need for a really cold (for example -20 F type of day)??

FYI - In general I seem to have .07 feet of baseboard per square foot on rooms with one external wall and .15 feet of baseboaerd for two corner rooms which have two external walls

You guys are great - thank you for all your help and patience in getting me up on the curve.

Happy Easter - Best regards - LOKO


----------



## Tarmsolo60 (Apr 13, 2009)

Here's a chart you might find useful.

http://www.slantfin.com/documents/327.pdf  there are other ones for different series slant fin baseboards.

it's telling you at 4 gpm you will get 610 btu/ft of baseboard at 180 degrees and only 340 btu/ft of baseboard at 140 degrees. Baseboard output drops off pretty drastically with lower supply temps.

if you measure your room sq footage multiply by 35 that will give you a rough heat load for that room like heaterman said.

then measure how many feet of baseboard are on that room and you can figure what the minimum water temp you need through the baseboards is once you know what series baseboard you have.

You said you have slant fin baseboard, go to their site and figure out what series baseboard you have, my link is for #30 baseboard only because it is pretty common.

this is only rough

You should do a better heat loss then you can figure how low you can go for baseboard temp and what the gpm flow needs to be.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 13, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Use an average heat output of 400 btu/lineal foot of active baseboard and you'll be safe with 150* water temp. So, if you have 10' of BB you'll arrive at a total of 4000btu.


----------



## Gooserider (Apr 13, 2009)

I know some Macs can run windows software, not sure what it takes to do that...  

The other option is to see if any of your Macs will run "WINE" (recursive algorythm, WINE Is Not an Emulator) - I know that WINE will run the Slant Fin program OK on Linux (that is how I run it), and I know that WINE has been ported to some of the BSD's, but I'm not sure if they have ported it to run under whatever proprietary mods Apple has done to BSD...  (One reason I don't like the BSD license, it doesn't require giving back the code...)

Gooserider


----------



## smangold (Apr 14, 2009)

HI, Have you considered a Switzer.Fires to 220, its pressurized.(no problem using baseboard heat) I loaded mine max once a day in Jan. and if it made it to the forties every other day.I think mine is the best system possible for my needs.


----------



## heaterman (Apr 14, 2009)

smangold said:
			
		

> HI, Have you considered a Switzer.Fires to 220, its pressurized.(no problem using baseboard heat) I loaded mine max once a day in Jan. and if it made it to the forties every other day.I think mine is the best system possible for my needs.



Baseboard heat is not the problem, it's the nasty habit some installers have of scrimping in the lineal feet and designing the system to require 180+ water temps. The lower the water temp, the more efficient everything in the system becomes. _Mandated maximum temperature in any new heating system in Germany is 167*_ Why do you think they do that?  System efficiency.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 14, 2009)

Gooserider said:
			
		

> I know some Macs can run windows software, not sure what it takes to do that...
> 
> The other option is to see if any of your Macs will run "WINE" (recursive algorythm, WINE Is Not an Emulator) - I know that WINE will run the Slant Fin program OK on Linux (that is how I run it), and I know that WINE has been ported to some of the BSD's, but I'm not sure if they have ported it to run under whatever proprietary mods Apple has done to BSD...  (One reason I don't like the BSD license, it doesn't require giving back the code...)
> 
> Gooserider



13 April - Hi Gooserider - I found a good heat loss calculator program at website "WarmlyYours" which works nicely on the MAC - I am currently working on heat loss for each individual room.  I also measured the lineal feet of b'board in each room - so hopefully in the not distant future I will have a "good idea" of water temperatures that I will need and i f there there is sufficient baseboard to deal with the lower temperatures that I might experience with the GARN.  I'll let you know more when I finish the calculations - hopefuilly tomorrow.
Thank you for the tips and keeping in touch.  
Best regards - LOKO


----------



## LOKO (Apr 14, 2009)

smangold said:
			
		

> HI, Have you considered a Switzer.Fires to 220, its pressurized.(no problem using baseboard heat) I loaded mine max once a day in Jan. and if it made it to the forties every other day.I think mine is the best system possible for my needs.



13 Apr - smangold - haven't heard of that one -sounds European - I'll give it a look - Thank you - LOKO


----------



## flyingcow (Apr 14, 2009)

heaterman said:
			
		

> smangold said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Listen to heaterman,
this is probably what my system is based on, close to 180. In the deep of winter, when my house calls for heat, my storage has to be_ at least _160+ ,170 and up to work well. But it eats up my storage quickly.  If I had more lineal feet, it would take lower temps. I have staple up radiant in my kitchen and have plans on doing my living area with that also. Obviously this will help a lot. The way I would compensate for the design problem is I would fire up unit about 3pmish(,my son would do when he came home from school), and by 4pm we had 180 feeding the baseboard, going on to 195. Usually would refill unit about 630/7pm(this would keep a good fire going close to midnight) and that would give us direct heat off boiler to heat house, rest of heat not needed would charge my storage.I can heat my house and charge storage at the same time.  Everyone was in bed by 10pm(t-stats turned down to 62), but i get up at 1/130am to go to work and could check to see if it needed more wood,  usually didn't except the nights it was -38 below. 
The weekend, we might fire as needed.
 Now in the shoulder season, I can bring my room temps up easily on 120+ tank temps. My undersized baseboard system will keep up.

Hope this helps. Excuse my typing/spelling skills. Had surgery on my rotator cuff, typing with left hand/finger, on pretty good meds.


----------



## flyingcow (Apr 14, 2009)

confused LOKO said:
			
		

> Gooserider said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I also contemplated replacing my baseboard with high output baseboard, versus running more feet.


----------



## LOKO (Apr 30, 2009)

Cave2k said:
			
		

> confused LOKO,
> The choice you make is forever going to be yours regardless of the input that you get for making a choice. Garn is good but so are the gasifiers that do not include storage. Fine tuning is just that. Fine tuning! It is not an every day occurrence and frankly most are set to run as is when received. Tweaking is optional but beneficial. Without storage I have taken my EKO40 from 8-10 hour burns to 14 hours. During the summer to supply dhw I will have one small daily fire. the choice should be based on function and output and the discipline you are going exercise towards fuel quality. Gasifiers are not OWB's, are not wood stoves and are not fire places. But now that mine is tuned I load it and basically walk away. The qualifier in the winter and cooler weather is I have a bed of coals to put fresh wood on. In warmer weather I start a fire, just like any other wood burning appliance, and don't walk away until the fire is going. The effort you make in economic functionality will reward you with less hard work and more effective output. I ran my EKO 24-7 for 1 1/2 years and was happy but then I found I could tweak it and I have not regretted the decision to do so and now I don't adjust the dials. If you get a Garn you may want to see if you can make it work better. People get Cadillac's and get them tuned every now and then. People with oil and gas heat systems get them tuned once in a while too. Wood is fuel. Consistent tweaking is "mother henning" but it can be fun. Enjoy what ever heating system you buy for your reasons.



30 April 2009

Hello Cave2K and any other wood chuckers - well - "confused Loko"  is less confused than a month ago - but I am now in a quandary in choosing between an EKO 40 without storage and a GARN 1500 -I have pretty well gotten past the "fine tuning" issue with the EKO 40 -  the problem/question is money.  There is a pretty big delta (interms of cost) between the two - and at the end of the day - an EKO with water storage (1000 gallon) will probably come in  just slightly less then the GARN 1500.  For Cave2K - I see that you operate an EKO 40 without water storage and you seem to be pretty happy with the set-up.  I would be interested in hearing more about your experience with this set-up - and if you plan to add water storage.  I am close to a decision - just wondering what other opinions are out there.

Getting close to a decision - with 12-14 cords of wood in the drying process. - LOKO


----------

