# Central Boiler 10 gauge steel Nightmare - Econoburn Dream



## mpoyneer (Nov 22, 2010)

I finally replaced my failed 6 year old Central Boiler OWB with an Econoburn 150-O Outdoor unit. You see, my Central Boiler leaked at the welds in the corner of the water jacket in April 2009, then in the firebox near the exhaust in March 2010 and again in the firebox near the exhaust just two weeks ago. 

The first repair was done by Central Boiler on their dime and the repair person said the welds looked like someone who just learned how to weld did the work: the welds were re-welded in places and you could see the grind marks from where the person started over. Needless to say, the first repair had me concerned about the longevity of my $10K investment.

The next repair was done on my dime by the same person who did the first repair - this time the welder said that the back of the firebox was pitted and paper thin in places on the side of the steel exposed to the fire. Interestingly, the side exposed to the water looked perfect and you could still see the paint on the panel! Central Boiler said that they would reimburse me but never did, and I argued with their service manager for hours on the phone about the lack of customer service their company displays. I did mention to him that I travel frequently on business and the next time I'm in Minnesota I would love to stop by and take him out for a beer, but he didn't seem like he wanted to go with me.

The final straw was two weeks ago: the steel below the last repair started leaking and when I hit it with a wire brush it started POURING out in multiple places. I tried in vain to repair it with the help of my friend but the steel was so pitted and buckled that the normall flat back surface of the firebox was deformed in the center by 1/2" to 3/4"!

*NOTE TO ALL CENTRAL BOILER POTENTIAL BUYERS* - Central Boiler uses 10 gauge steel for the firebox NOT 1/4". I will post pictures so everyone knows the truth. Don't think for a minute that a dealer will be truthful about the stoves they sell - be skeptical!

*NOTE TO CENTRAL BOILER* - You should be ashamed of yourselves and hopefully a class-action lawsuit will put you out of business once and for all! I spent over $10K for a 6 year solution - $1,666.66 per year in boiler ownership cost. Your service staff are rude, and try to scare people by saying things like "well, I hope your water quality was up to par because if not, you will have to pay for the stove repair". Seriously? When I post the pictures of the backside of the steel (the side that faces the water jacket) you will see clearly that your service manager is full of beans and just wants to scare people and help Central Boiler make more money.

Whew! Sorry for the rant on Central Boiler - someone out there may think I have an axe to grind against Central Boiler...and they would be 100% correct: You would have an axe to grind when you spend $10,000.00 for a 5 year heating solution and have to replace it due to poor quality

Okay...I'm on to my current solution - I have to leave for work, but will update this post with my new Econuburn 150-O (outdoor model) tonight! Suffice it to say that my indoor LP Gas boiler was at 172 degrees this morning and I still had some coals and two stick of wood in the Econoburn at 6am this morning after filling it at 10pm last night. 500 gallons of storage pending, but after one night I'm impressed - but I'm a critical thinker and will watch this process with a subjective eye and keep you posted!

Matt Poyneer
Port Byron, NY
Econoburn 150-O
500 Gallons of pressurized storage pending
FORMER CENTRAL BOILER OWNER - DON'T BUY FROM CENTRAL BOILER THEY USE 10Gauge steel not 1/4" and don't stand behind their poor quality products


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## Singed Eyebrows (Nov 22, 2010)

mpoyneer said:
			
		

> I finally replaced my failed 6 year old Central Boiler OWB with an Econoburn 150-O Outdoor unit. You see, my Central Boiler leaked at the welds in the corner of the water jacket in April 2009, then in the firebox near the exhaust in March 2010 and again in the firebox near the exhaust just two weeks ago.
> 
> The first repair was done by Central Boiler on their dime and the repair person said the welds looked like someone who just learned how to weld did the work: the welds were re-welded in places and you could see the grind marks from where the person started over. Needless to say, the first repair had me concerned about the longevity of my $10K investment.
> 
> ...


 The service manager probably just felt that you would be coming back after the beer & he wouldn't. I hope your EB does better, Randy


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## harttj (Nov 22, 2010)

mpoyneer said:
			
		

> I finally replaced my failed 6 year old Central Boiler OWB with an Econoburn 150-O Outdoor unit. You see, my Central Boiler leaked at the welds in the corner of the water jacket in April 2009, then in the firebox near the exhaust in March 2010 and again in the firebox near the exhaust just two weeks ago.
> 
> The first repair was done by Central Boiler on their dime and the repair person said the welds looked like someone who just learned how to weld did the work: the welds were re-welded in places and you could see the grind marks from where the person started over. Needless to say, the first repair had me concerned about the longevity of my $10K investment.
> 
> ...



10 GA vs 1/4" should be easy to prove.  

Tim


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## heaterman (Nov 22, 2010)

I spoke with a guy Saturday who told me that CB was going to buy his 2 year old unit back from him because of unsolved problems. Maybe there's some recourse in that direction. Biggest thing is documentation of the failures and a yearly water quality test that proves water condition.

Truth be known..........I have to say that from what I have seen, the *average* life of a mild steel OWB of *any* brand is about 7-9 years. The stainless ones will go a couple more all things being equal.


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## harttj (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't see the thickness advertised on the webpage anymore.


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## bigburner (Nov 22, 2010)

This is a little off topic, but if you replace a OWB and are buying a similar product, this is what I like. These are built in an ASME shop and are pressurized. Put in several for friends over the years and all are still operating with zero issues. Take a look -- www.royallfurnace.com
 closed system means no 02 issues and to be pressurized you know the metal is pretty thick and they have welded stay bolts also. Think the pricing is fair too. They also make an indoor model. There is another company out there with a similar name, it's not them.


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 23, 2010)

Singed Eyebrows said:
			
		

> mpoyneer said:
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The service manager is not as stew pid as he looks ;-) 

If ya need a driver Matt, I can wait in the truck while you 'talk' to the CB Dude. Then we'll go look up Dave Barber of GreenWood 'service', and you can keep the truck runnin while I 'talk' to him :blank:


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## Singed Eyebrows (Nov 23, 2010)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Singed Eyebrows said:
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 Good one, ISDBTU'S, Randy


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 23, 2010)

But just so as we're clear, I'm sure you will have some problems with the E-Coburn too . . . I mean, afterall, were asking a lil bit of steel and insulation and refractory and wiring to perform day in and day out while being subjected to intense heat.

And, am I the only one wondering just how *mean* Randy's GF is, and just how *good* of a dancer she is . . .?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Nov 23, 2010)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> But just so as we're clear, I'm sure you will have some problems with the E-Coburn too . . . I mean, afterall, were asking a lil bit of steel and insulation and refractory and wiring to perform day in and day out while being subjected to intense heat.
> 
> And, am I the only one wondering just how *mean* Randy's GF is, and just how *good* of a dancer she is . . .?


 She used to be a better dancer, hopefully I didn't wear her out? As for meanness, shes brutal, horrible, ok shes not that bad lol, Randy


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## mpoyneer (Nov 24, 2010)

Wow - I didn't think I would start THIS much conversation, but ISDBTU’S comment is priceless...the first one anyway. ISDBTU's - please tell me that you are being sarcastic with your comment about "I mean, afterall, were asking a lil bit of steel and insulation and refractory and wiring to perform day in and day out while being subjected to intense heat"...I'm a little on edge recently due to spending some serious cash, and my sarcasm detection circuit is off slightly.

Honestly guys - I'm hoping to get my money out of this Econoburn, and am hoping for 15 years of service: is that too much to ask?

As a side note: my wife is a good dancer and I try not to make her angry - she turns green and gets all muscley and that really scares me!

One last thing: I added a 4 ft. section of stainless chimney for draft to help pull the smoke out when I'm loading...I don't know how this unit could be sold with only 2ft of chimney in the first place. Wait, yes I think I know...


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## mpoyneer (Nov 24, 2010)

Okay - now I'm nervous: When I installed the Econoburn with the dealer's oversight, he never mentioned a dump zone. I didn't see anything in the outdoor model's manual about one and therefore didn't ask. The dealer basically said that the outdoor model was setup for direct plumbing to replace my old OWB - connect the supply, connect the return and connect power and that's it...so that's what we did. Am I missing something or am I in for a rude awakening when we lose power ( and it's not "if we lose power" it's WHEN!)?

My setup is this: EBW-150-O 140ft from my house, next to my 15' x 30' pole barn serving as my woodshed. There are no secondary loops - the supply on the outdoor boiler runs into the supply T on my indoor gas boiler and the return runs from the return T on my indoor boiler to the return on my outdoor boiler. I say supply and return T's because I just T'd into the supply and return lines on the indoor boiler: the supply T is below the indoor boiler circ pump, and when there are no zones in the house calling for heat, the outdoor boiler just circulates water through the indoor boiler and back out to the outdoor boiler. The indoor boiler's aquastat is set to 140 and the outdoor boiler is set to 172 and since Sunday, I've used zero propane on two wood fills per day.

I'm planning on installing 500 gallons of pressurized storage this weekend in the pole barn and will wrap the tank with insulation, but I'm concerned that I need some sort of power outage protection either with a UPS to keep the circulator on the outdoor boiler running until I can fire up my generator or with a dump zone. Any ideas?


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## Hydronics (Nov 24, 2010)

You could shut off the loop circulator once the wood boiler is up to temp and see how far the wood boiler creeps up in temp. Unless it's very windy, it shouldn't creep exceesively.
On another note; does your underground pex have an oxygen barrier to prevent corrosion to your boilers?


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## webbie (Nov 24, 2010)

FYI, engineering is MUCH more important than thickness when it comes to boilers.

I saw old Tarms which were made of pretty thin (approx. 1/8) steel which were 60+ years old (at the factory).

As with much design, over-building is often a way to try to make up for a lack of proper design. If the leaks are at welds, it does not matter how thick the steel is!

My advice - buy an engineered product. That means designed by engineers and built to standards. ASME is a great standard, but so are some European standards which apply to their boilers. 

A layman would be VERY impressed when you see what goes into a ASME pressure vessel. Every piece of steel, welding rod, bolt, etc. has to be traced from start to finish and also treated a certain way right up until it goes into the product! Welding, in general, should look better than a caulk line you could lay.....or, it should look (and sometimes is) like it is done by a robot.

I have enclosed a screen shot from my tarm video of some nice Tarm welds.....


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## webbie (Nov 24, 2010)

Some of the other obvious things (to welders, at least) is that steel should overlap as in those pictures - the steel sticks out enough to provide lots of surface area for the weld...it seems better than a butt joint, although these cannot be helped in certain places. These welds, btw, are the outside of the water jacket! I would expect the ones in the firebox have to stand up to more abuse!

Oh, here's some raw footage from the tarm plant from 20 years ago!
[googlevideo]4506738263332463827[/googlevideo]


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## mpoyneer (Nov 24, 2010)

Hydronics said:
			
		

> You could shut off the loop circulator once the wood boiler is up to temp and see how far the wood boiler creeps up in temp. Unless it's very windy, it shouldn't creep exceesively.
> On another note; does your underground pex have an oxygen barrier to prevent corrosion to your boilers?



My underground pex is the green 1" tubing that came with my Central Boiler back in 2004. How can I find out if it has an oxygen barrier? The dealer said it did, but I want to be 100% certain. If it isn't, can I treat the water and remove the oxygen that way? This is a pressurized system now, so I'm now sure if that makes a difference.

Thanks for the tip on shutting off the circ - I'll try that tonight!


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## mpoyneer (Nov 24, 2010)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> FYI, engineering is MUCH more important than thickness when it comes to boilers.
> 
> I saw old Tarms which were made of pretty thin (approx. 1/8) steel which were 60+ years old (at the factory).
> 
> ...



Craig - outstanding! Yes, engineering and intelligent design are what constitute a quality product that will last. In Central Boiler's case, the 1/4" thick plate would have given me more years before the material failed like it did, but you're dead-on when it comes to welds. Thanks for the reply and great website!


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## Singed Eyebrows (Nov 24, 2010)

ASME stays must protrude on both sides of the pressure vessel(approx 1/2" past the weld) otherwise they don't pass. Not to be discounted is the high quality steel that is typically used in Swedish area products. On Ebay they just put a coat of paint on the old tarms & the're ready to go again, Randy


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## ISeeDeadBTUs (Nov 25, 2010)

Anyone who questions the quality of Swedish don't know Inger Carlson Smith.

Or, for that matter . . .





But I'd not recommend asking either one to weld your boiler


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## henfruit (Nov 25, 2010)

Jimbo, Where did you get the picture of my girl?


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## Singed Eyebrows (Nov 25, 2010)

ISeeDeadBTUs said:
			
		

> Anyone who questions the quality of Swedish don't know Inger Carlson Smith.
> 
> Or, for that matter . . .
> 
> ...


 What, she can't weld? Well then forget it, lol, Randy


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