# cold well water



## wg_bent (Aug 5, 2007)

We have a well, and I got to thinking that in summer particularly, the ground water is still like 60 degrees or so, and if it were passed through a long set of pipes above ground, it would not have to be heated up by the furnace from 60, but rather be heated up from something more like 75.  (the pool temp is at 84 right now)  I'm not talking solar here... just use of ambient air temp.  I'd bet you could even use it to do dehumidification if done right.


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## Harley (Aug 5, 2007)

I'm not sure I follow... do you mean something like "additional storage" of water in pipes in the house to let it warm up a bit from the well, before it goes into the hot water heater?  Or when you say "above ground" do you mean outside?

If you mean inside the house to let the water warm up from ambiant room temperature - I would think that would work, however during the summer, I think it would take a lot more running of the pump to get a nice cold glass of water from the tap.

But I'm probably not really picturing what you mean.


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## wg_bent (Aug 6, 2007)

Well (if you'll pardon the pun), If the entire goal is to warm the water 15 - 20 degrees, then simply having a large outdoor run of pipe somewhere would do nicely prior to the furnace.  Would need to be bi-passed and drained in the winter to avoid freezing, but that wouldn't be hard to do.  Even if it were a long run through some foodgrade plastic pipe outdoors somewhere, it would probably warm up a lot just being in the 80-90 degree summer temps we get around here.  If dehumidification is the goal, then if a large coil of pipe were placed in the basement, I know those pipes would sweat a lot to remove moisture.  Probably require quite a large coil and be sort of ugly, so it's not all that practical, but it's just an idea... not likely to see the light of day.  Both are WAY too redneck for my wife. 

Is that a better picture of the idea?


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## EatenByLimestone (Aug 6, 2007)

Why not run it intot a (raised off the ground for drainage) black painted tank that's stored outside.  I bet it would be much hotter than you wanted.  

Matt


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## Harley (Aug 6, 2007)

I see.... It should work - it could be a fairly simple plan..... But as you point out.... Not sure you could really hide it very easily.


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## kevinlp (Aug 6, 2007)

I've thought about similar ideas Warren. Our well water is soo cold. I can see why it could be used for ground source heat pumps to cool a house in the summer.


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## cbrodsky (Aug 6, 2007)

Our copper pipes were working way too well as basement de-humidifiers so I finally wrapped them in insulation and sealed them  

-Colin


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## Sandor (Aug 7, 2007)

I've thought about this before.

My plan is to install a 20-30 gallon tank in the corner behind the stove and route the cold water supply to the water heater through it. I figure that in the summer, the water will be preheated (from a well temp of 58) before it hits the water heater, and will supply limited free cooling. And in the winter, the water will be preheated from the stove.


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## wg_bent (Aug 7, 2007)

NY Soapstone said:
			
		

> Our copper pipes were working way too well as basement de-humidifiers so I finally wrapped them in insulation and sealed them
> 
> -Colin


Exactly Colin. One of the walls in the basement was rotted inside where they didn't insulate the pipe coming in from the well.  I had to replace the wall.  Now it's insulated, but still the water filters sweat, the softener, the pump switch, etc.... I still have to waterproof and insulate the mechanical room, so that should help as well.  I need to do more with those pipes. didn't do the elbows well, etc...


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## Highbeam (Aug 7, 2007)

As I was filling my (gasp) hot tub I measured the temperature at 50 degrees from our well. That temp is the year round temp of course and leads to some mighty sweaty toilet tanks. Heating the water for domestic use from 50 to 120 is a mighty energy intensive task compared to 70 degree water or even warmer if using solar panels.


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## KeithO (Aug 27, 2007)

How about putting a heat exchanger in the attic (in feed at the bottom, outfeed at the top).   During summer, when the condensation problem is at its peak due to high humidity, the attic is really hot (much higher than ambient).   There would have to be a drip tray underneath to carry away condensation safely.  This would allow pre-heating of the water supply before it gets to the boiler.  The thing is drained before the first frost and then bypassed during winter.   The best part is that it is out of the public eye and in an environment that is much hotter than ambient.  To improve airflow through the heat exchanger, one might want to impliment a "chimney" around the heat exchanger that vents the hot air out of the attic.  This would provide a more positive air exchange through the heat exchanger than if it just "sat" there in the hot attic and randomly bumped into some of the hot air molecules that wafted that way.


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## cbrodsky (Aug 27, 2007)

KeithO said:
			
		

> How about putting a heat exchanger in the attic (in feed at the bottom, outfeed at the top).   During summer, when the condensation problem is at its peak due to high humidity, the attic is really hot (much higher than ambient).   There would have to be a drip tray underneath to carry away condensation safely.  This would allow pre-heating of the water supply before it gets to the boiler.  The thing is drained before the first frost and then bypassed during winter.   The best part is that it is out of the public eye and in an environment that is much hotter than ambient.  To improve airflow through the heat exchanger, one might want to impliment a "chimney" around the heat exchanger that vents the hot air out of the attic.  This would provide a more positive air exchange through the heat exchanger than if it just "sat" there in the hot attic and randomly bumped into some of the hot air molecules that wafted that way.



Interesting idea - I think if you had a good sized heat exchanger in the attic it might work OK for reducing hot water load for evening use at very little expense if you can route the water up and down easily.  May not do much for morning showers as the attic would cool down at night, cooling the water as well, but when you run your dishwasher or laundry at night, or take a shower at night, you'd be saving something.

In some southern states I think they actually put the hot water heaters up in the attic probably for this reason - then you start to approach the simplest type of "batch solar" system where you just have a single panel on your roof with a modest sized tank at the top of the panel.  We saw these on tons of houses in Barbados.

-Colin


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## keyman512us (Aug 27, 2007)

Warren said:
			
		

> We have a well, and I got to thinking that in summer particularly, the ground water is still like 60 degrees or so, and if it were passed through a long set of pipes above ground, it would not have to be heated up by the furnace from 60, but rather be heated up from something more like 75.  (the pool temp is at 84 right now)  I'm not talking solar here... just use of ambient air temp.  I'd bet you could even use it to do dehumidification if done right.



Warren...What you are thinking of doing could work and would save SOME energy that is wasted trying to heat extremely cold well water. Everyone has brought up very good points above.

Unfortunately, there are two factors that need to be considered. First, as you have pointed out "your Mrs." is reluctant to turn you loose worrying your idea is a little too much "red-neck tech"...and perhaps a little rightly so. In theory, and from trying to picture the installation... it sounds good...once put into practice however... pipes, pumps, storage tanks, and all the other associated gizzmo's and gadgets aren't all that pretty unless from the wallet perspective.

Looking at it from the wallet perspective (on the surface) looks attractive... until you take a trip to HD or loews and get the "sticker shock" of what plumbing supplies are going for these days. Consideration must be given to the initial up front costs and then calculate what your ROI is going to be. Saving $8,$15 or even $30 a month on your DHW heating bill sounds attractive at first...but when you spend $1000.00, $1500.00 or more to do it... Unless it's a "labor of love" or you are "Gung-Ho for saving the enviroment and lessening your carbon foot print" it's not a very worthwhile endeavor.

For the "average homeowner" things can be a little tricky when it comes to plumbing... and care should be taken.. whether people realize it or not the plumbing we use everyday is the lifeline for good health. If you do end up doing something be carefull and take that into consideration...your well water may be of good quality... but if you are running it all over the place and heating it up the quality may degrade.

Do you/would you like to drink water from a garden hose laying in the sun all day???

If you do experiment... I would recomend you lean towards "heat exchangers vs. direct methods" in other words...keep the 'system' water separate from the drinking water as a safety measure.

What kind of heating system do you have in your home??? 

After some consideration... if you could "build a system" and it could be used year round, it might be worth looking into...if however you are only going to use it "in the warm months" it might not be worth doing.


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## keyman512us (Aug 27, 2007)

Warren...
Having said all that I have already "been there (doing) done that". I've got a few of the same ideas... but it takes a lot of time to do waht you want to do... Keep that in mind either way... the more time you put into a project like this... the better the out-come will be.

Just keep in mind "what your time is worth"... a few hours here and there nights and weekends may not sound that expensive... but I'm guessing you may have had "a project or two similiar in nature around the house" that has taken away some of your time from the family... or at the very least..."The Mrs."

...That is a "cost you have to look out for".

Just trying to give a little ''perspective'


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## cbrodsky (Aug 27, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> For the "average homeowner" things can be a little tricky when it comes to plumbing... and care should be taken.. whether people realize it or not the plumbing we use everyday is the lifeline for good health. If you do end up doing something be carefull and take that into consideration...your well water may be of good quality... but if you are running it all over the place and heating it up the quality may degrade.
> 
> Do you/would you like to drink water from a garden hose laying in the sun all day???
> 
> If you do experiment... I would recomend you lean towards "heat exchangers vs. direct methods" in other words...keep the 'system' water separate from the drinking water as a safety measure.



I agree, and one way to accomplish this easily/cheaply is something called a "solar wand" - it fits into a lot of existing water heater tanks and then you circulate through that wand up to a roof solar panel.  Connect it to a differential controller that monitors temp up top with water tank temperature (~$100) and substitute the roof solar panel for lots of coiled PEX tubing or finned copper if you've got $$$ and maybe you can make a poor man's supplemental heater.  But at that point, you may as well spend the extra $1000 on the real solar panel, which will only cost you $500 after NYS/Fed tax rebates, and make some serious hot water!  Such a system is probably the cheapest way to go, but you won't get the results of a true stratified properly designed solar HW system.

-Colin


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## wg_bent (Aug 27, 2007)

keyman512us said:
			
		

> Warren...
> Having said all that I have already "been there (doing) done that". I've got a few of the same ideas... but it takes a lot of time to do waht you want to do... Keep that in mind either way... the more time you put into a project like this... the better the out-come will be.
> 
> Just keep in mind "what your time is worth"... a few hours here and there nights and weekends may not sound that expensive... but I'm guessing you may have had "a project or two similiar in nature around the house" that has taken away some of your time from the family... or at the very least..."The Mrs."
> ...



What is that a picture of?


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## keyman512us (Aug 28, 2007)

Warren said:
			
		

> keyman512us said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The picture is of the "piping job" for my first 'tandem barrel' setup. I started with the same ideas as you but wanted something that could "store/dissipate" heat from "flexible sources". In the summertime it is tied into a black 55 gallon barell OUTSIDE in the sun. A small circulator pump is tied into a control circuit which circulates for two minutes every 10 minutes. The barrels are wrapped to store the heat in the summertime. In the wintertime the wrap comes off and it becomes a radiant heater. The source for the heat comes from an "exchanger" I built that is heated from the "waste heat" from the wood fired boiler. Kind of "red neck tech" but "Mrs. Key" knows when it is working becuase it keeps the bedroom as well as the floor warm.
The way the water flows is simple but effective. Hot water from the top of the outside barrell is drawn from the top...the water returns to the bottom. In the storage barrels the water enters at the top and leaves through the bottom. While not technically a true water heater... It does however preheat the water...much the way you were suggesting...

I try to keep the bigger picture in mind...as each addition to the system will add to the preheat gain... I do work on adding to the system on rainy days...


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