# Wow the Quadrafire Brick is Crappy!



## velvetfoot (Sep 24, 2007)

I was cleaning the Quad 2700i insert and flue today.
The firebrick looks like crap after one season!
This is the second Quad I've had-the first one looked just the same.
They are lightweight, like vermiculite I guess and chunks of it have come off already, and gaps seem very large now.
In my last one I went down to the brickyard and replaced them all with firebrick.
They seem quite a bit more sturdy.
Sure, I'll have to cut them down (the original base size is 9" long-is that a standard size?) and even have to drill a hole for the air pipe (any sugggestions on what kind of drill?), but it'll be worth it.

I imagine the company picked them for some reason, like their insulating properties, but good is that if they wear prematurely?

Has anybody done similarly or have an opinion?

(I vaguely remember a thread, so I'll start searching too.)


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## jtp10181 (Sep 24, 2007)

From what I have seen, "chunks" of them virtually "melt" off if the unit is over fired. I have worked on Quad units which have had many fires / seasons in them and the bricks are still in good condition. The only ones I see breaking quickly are the really thin bricks some units have on the edges, or the bricks with off-center holes. Other than that they seem to hold up just fine. In fact I just remembered, we have 3 models in out showroom that we burn all the time and the bricks are just fine. We also have a 7100 and Northstar that both got burned a lot last year.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 24, 2007)

As far as I know, it's not operator error.  My bricks are very lightweight.  Almost like popcorn.  Both my 2700i and my old 3100i stuff would adhere to the bricks and then when you clean out the ashes clumps of the brick come off too.  The bricks have a very rough, porus surface, and as I said very lightweight.  The problem is mostly on the bottom bricks.  In my new 2700i the bricks almost seem as if they've gotten smaller-there is a large space filled with ash now-almost 1/2".  The manual says the basic size of the brick is 9x4.5x1.5".   Is that a common firebrick size?  As I recall, I had no problem with the common firebrick I used to replace my 3100i's brick.


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## webbie (Sep 24, 2007)

That sounds like a popular size of "split" firebrick.... (4x8 and 4.5 x 9 are the two)

If the bricks are very lightweight, I suspect they were used because of superior insulating capability - i.e., easier to get better numbers from EPA.

Since UL tests do not include "destructive" tests, they would be get away with this.... I can't imagine this type of brick holding up in a firebox where wood is thrown in - They are more common in oil furnaces and in other situations where only heat (and not physical force) is applied.


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## BrotherBart (Sep 24, 2007)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> That sounds like a popular size of "split" firebrick.... (4x8 and 4.5 x 9 are the two)
> 
> If the bricks are very lightweight, I suspect they were used because of superior insulating capability - i.e., easier to get better numbers from EPA.
> 
> Since UL tests do not include "destructive" tests, they would be get away with this.... I can't imagine this type of brick holding up in a firebox where wood is thrown in - They are more common in oil furnaces and in other situations where only heat (and not physical force) is applied.



They are made out of pumice. I think Enviro uses them in their stoves also. If you have ever picked up a piece of pumice you can imagine how light and fragile they are.


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## kd460 (Sep 24, 2007)

My Kodiak uses the pumice bricks also (same size). Good luck trying to find them. I have not had any luck unless I want to by them from a dealer for $6.00 each! KD


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## wg_bent (Sep 24, 2007)

My Osburn uses these also.  ONly ones that broke down were the two center bottom.  I replaced them with the heavier stuiff and burned last year with no issues.  All bricks were fine this year.  I had a problem with the brick getting clinker like material stuck to it when I burned certain woods.  (Another reason to hate elm, but don't get me going on that)  Nothing sticks to the newer brick, and I've detected no difference in the stove performance.  Being on the bottom of the stove, the difference in insulation is likely not  a big deal either.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 24, 2007)

If they only last a year, I'm not going to replace them with the same type.


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## hilly (Sep 24, 2007)

I replaced the bottom bricks on my regency after one season. Just like Warren said, I get globs of stuff melted onto/into them and they break when I try to clean them off. I decided to replace them so cleaning would be a bit easier and at $4 each I figured I'd try it. Even if I have to do it every year, the extra cost (it's only the bottom ones) is tiny compared to what I'm saving on heating bills.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 24, 2007)

I get the same thing happening-the stuff breaks off when sweeping out the ashes.

The local brick yard sells the standard bricks for $1.06 each.  It looks to be 19 brick pieces of some size or other.
6 bricks need cutting and one needs a drilled hole.
Maybe I'll just replace the bottom ones-I'm not sure yet.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 24, 2007)

I think I'll pick up the bricks tonight and do the whole thing.

Masonry drill for the air tube hole?


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## kd460 (Sep 25, 2007)

I would replace mine with the brick yard stuff, but, I have been told here that the insulating qualities of the pumice brick is better (safer?). Just not sure. KD


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## jtp10181 (Sep 25, 2007)

Some people said certain woods seem to stick to it more? One person mentioned elm? We always thought people were abusing the stove when we saw giant pits in the bricks. Seems like most people around here don't have that problem, only a few. Possibly it is some wood types not commonly burned in this area. Can anyone confirm wood types that destroy their pumice bricks? I was thinking about bringing this up to Quadrafire for discussion.


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## hilly (Sep 25, 2007)

Jtp, 
The wood that was the worst on my bricks was soft maple. I got the stove hot a few times 850 f, but certainly not glowing, so I don't think it was from overfiring. I am sure your customers would appreciate you looking into this especially if it affects their warrenty.

The woman at the stove shop said that they are a very common item to replace on Regency's.


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## jtp10181 (Sep 25, 2007)

I would consider a stove top temp of 850 over firing on any of the Quad units if it was sustained for any amount of time. This is what I have seen destroys the bricks, it looks as if they gets melted from the extreme heat.


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## hilly (Sep 25, 2007)

All my regency manual says is not to let it glow! When it did get that hot I shut the air down and let it slow down so it wasn't sustained (I'm actually not sure if I could keep it that hot if I tried), but I guess there's a whole lotta heat going on inside the firebox.

I'll keep track of things this year and let you know if there's any damage between periods when I know that it hasn't gotten very hot.


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## wg_bent (Sep 25, 2007)

jtp10181 said:
			
		

> Some people said certain woods seem to stick to it more? One person mentioned elm? We always thought people were abusing the stove when we saw giant pits in the bricks. Seems like most people around here don't have that problem, only a few. Possibly it is some wood types not commonly burned in this area. Can anyone confirm wood types that destroy their pumice bricks? I was thinking about bringing this up to Quadrafire for discussion.



Yes, it is wood specific.  I burn Oak, Apple, Ash, Elm, Cherry, Pine, Cedar, and Maple, even Sumac.  The only wood that consistently leaves clinker like (as in coal clinkers) deposits that are actually hard and  crunchy is Elm.  The Elm I burn is exclusively stuff that was killed by dutch elm disease, so it's close to seasoned while standing, but does need some drying out.  I burned a good 2 cords of it last year, and there is no mistake about that elm is the single wood that does this.  I actually kept notes.  

The clinkers form  directly in front of the front air intake on the floor of the stove, and stick to brick. The non-pumace stones are not as porous, so the clinkers do not stick.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 25, 2007)

Wouldn't it take extremely high heat to melt the average firebrick?  The low end is 2,800 F according to this:  http://www.answers.com/topic/firebrick .  This link says typical steel melts at 2,500 F: http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html .  
What temp are you guys talking about anyway?  From a probe inside a flue or from a surface mount?  Anything on the surface is just guessing especially with an insert.  My point is firebrick should edit:  NOT melt, and if it does it's even crappier than just a flaking, popcorn piece of doo doo.
Anyway, my insert was never glowing, and I never overfired it.
The stuff just flakes off.  Not all of the bricks-the ones on the bottom where the the wood/ash bonds somehow.
The same exact thing happened with my 2100i in the other house (this is a correction from the 3100i I cited above-the 2100i is discontinued).  I waited several years before I replaced them, but the 2700i's are going down the same road, so I'm replacing them with sturdier units now.


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## jtp10181 (Sep 25, 2007)

I never said they were actually melting (if I did thats not what I meant). I just said I have seen ones that look as if they are melted, and it seems to be people running the unit way too hot. It seems there are certian woods that also break down the bricks so that must be the case with you. Or you are just unlucky and the bricks hate you.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 25, 2007)

Well, I do not think I am the only one those "bricks" hate, and vice versa.

PS:  Other than the bricks, I've liked both Quads.


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## jtp10181 (Sep 25, 2007)

I will bring it up to the wood specialist over at Quad and see what they think about it, and what they think about putting other bricks in there.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 25, 2007)

Thanks.


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## R&D Guy (Sep 26, 2007)

The company I work for looked into putting a similar sounding material in our wood stoves.  It was seen as a cost savings move since we currently had to pay a few guys to cut brick all day, and all the wasted pieces thrown away verses having a 1 piece no waste floor (replacing 6 or more bricks), and another for the sides, back etc.  I don't know if it's the same material as Quad uses, but there was concern about durability in long term tests.

Since then I've seen gas burners being made of the same material.  So it looks like it could stand the heat, but as stated perhaps the impacts over time can cause some people problems.


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## jtp10181 (Sep 26, 2007)

No, Quad uses bricks, but they are made out of a more porous material.


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## wg_bent (Sep 26, 2007)

Corrie?  Mike?  What do you guys over at Englander know about this?


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## thechimneysweep (Sep 26, 2007)

I've seen two types of firebrick splits used to line wood stove fireboxes: high-density and high-refractory.  Some manufacturers use smaller or cut-down bricks to fit their fireboxes, but the typical size used is 4.5" x 9" x 1-1/4".  Pre-epa models used high-density bricks weighing 3.5 lbs. apiece, but most of the newer, epa approved models I've seen use high-refractory bricks, which are extremely porous, weigh only 2 lbs. apiece, and appear to have chunks of vermiculite or some similar material in them.

The lightweight high-refractory firebricks do break down at a much faster rate than the heavier high-density bricks, but I've been told that high-refractory bricks make for hotter firebox temperatures, which in turn create better combustion efficiency and lower emissions.

Within the average wood stove firebox, the bricks that take the big hit are the floor bricks, which are subjected to more abrasion from fuelwood and ash shovels than the side bricks.  This is one of the reasons we advise our customers to always leave an inch of ash protecting the floor bricks.


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## velvetfoot (Sep 27, 2007)

This is the response I got from Quadrafire corporate (a loss of 1/2 the brick thickness does not seem too acceptable to me):


Thank you for your inquiry; we recommend that your appliance is serviced annually by a qualified service technician.  

Cracks, breakage and or wearing of the firebrick in our Quadra-Fire wood burning models are normal. The firebrick is a consumable part for it will wear and through the loading process may develop cracks or break. We recommend replacing the firebrick when it wears more than ½ of the way through or if it has a breakage and creates an open area of the firebox. 

Please do the following to place an order through a dealer: 
1.    Make a copy of the section of the installation manual that shows the firebrick placement and size.
2.    Circle the bricks needed.
3.    Give this copy to the dealer when placing the order through them.

We will custom cut the bricks to fit.
Please note that we offer individual bricks like this or a precut set.
You may want to verify the costs with the dealer to determine which option costs less.
Warranty doesn't cover firebricks for they are a consumable part.


Please contact one of our dealers to place an order for parts if necessary.

If you are in need of further assistance you can find a local dealer by visiting our web site at www.quadrafire.com 

Customer Service & Support 
Internal Code: CSPD


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## BrotherBart (Sep 27, 2007)

Good grief. My old stove never broke or wore out a brick in 21 years of 24/7. And I don't think the new one is going to either. At least they are the $2.60 jobbies from the stove shop dusty pile in the back.

Hmmm... Come to think of it I still have the ones from the old stove too.


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## jtp10181 (Sep 27, 2007)

Sorry I have not been in the office because one of my guys was out. Maybe I can find time to call tomorrow and get something better than the cookie cutter response.


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## yukiginger (Sep 27, 2007)

Yes, the quad bricks are junk.  I posted on this a while back.  I bought a few replacement bricks from my dealer and the ones with the holes were something like $15 each.  I had a couple bricks cracked through/crumbling after my first season of burning.  No, I don't really find it acceptable.  I posted here about replacing them and the consensus was something like "replace it with the ones the manufacturer recommends or you will change the burning tolerances ..."  I have no doubt that the device might perform differently, but be unsafe, or pollute substantially more - come on?!  I seriously doubt that.  I will replace all future bricks with the denser ones that I cut myself.  A Lopi dealer I spoke with suggested Quad used the lighter brick to save on shipping.  Who knows but I will not replace these inferior bricks with more inferior, expensive bricks.

MarkG


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## velvetfoot (Sep 27, 2007)

My rebricking job turned out quite nice.
I used a masonry blade on a table saw and a 1" high speed masonry bit with some wiggling to make the aire tube hole.

I can't believe they actually said that losing 1/2 of the thickness was acceptable.


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## jqgs214 (Sep 27, 2007)

Along these lines - how do the PE bricks hold up?? they seem light like the quad ones. maybe a better quality??  Lets brag some more about our PE's!!


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## Gunner (Sep 27, 2007)

wxman said:
			
		

> Along these lines - how do the PE bricks hold up?? they seem light like the quad ones. maybe a better quality??  Lets brag some more about our PE's!!



Brag...Hmmm, were to start :lol:  how about PE blowing the mitten racks off of VC in the Klamath Falls and Portland Oregon study, the most modern scientific study on GPH ever conducted


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## Jimbob (Oct 28, 2007)

Had 1 brick in the back of our Summit crack, probably because I hit it when chucking a hunk of wood in. Replaced it with another light brick. The bricks on the bottom of the stove have been fine, though.
I will eventually replace all the light firebricks in the back of the stove with the heavier ones.


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## Hogwildz (Oct 28, 2007)

My bricks are holding up fine fire wise. Now wood smacking them is another store. Just a few minor nicks on the edges & such.


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## MarkG (Jan 27, 2008)

I was told these light weight ones are used to save shipping costs and after1-5 years should be replaced with ceramics.....

makes sense to me but I wish I had the option to pay the shipping on better bricks or buy a stove without brick and add it later.

Mark


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## jtp10181 (Jan 27, 2008)

MarkG said:
			
		

> I was told these light weight ones are used to save shipping costs and after1-5 years should be replaced with ceramics.....
> 
> makes sense to me but I wish I had the option to pay the shipping on better bricks or buy a stove without brick and add it later.
> 
> Mark



If that was the case Quad would not sell the same brick in a replacement set. They are intended to be used the life of the stove. They last differently depending on how people use their stove. I have seen many stoves that have seen many seasons (that are used to heat the house all winter) with the original brick still in. Sure they don't look brand new, but they are still functional.


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## MarkG (Jan 27, 2008)

They guy who told me that works as a consultant for Quad....


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## nshif (Jan 27, 2008)

Well after burning 24/7 with mine for 4 months they look fine, no cracks, chips and hardly any discoleration.


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## unbroken (Sep 2, 2009)

I'm brand new here; was looking into replacing some firebrick on my 3100i this morning and came across this thread...I have had the same experience with the bottom front center bricks flaking away every time ash is removed from the stove. The area of the fire where the single large underfire air hole discharges gets locally extremely hot, and the surface of the brick there seems to chemically combine with wood/ash under the intense heat and form something that's not brick and not ash, but not clinkers. Probably half the brick thickness is gone in this small area in front center. I have burned 90% seasoned oak, with a bit of maple, locust, cherry, and yellow birch. I haven't overfired the unit, though it's performed at capacity for long stretches. All the other bricks are in fine shape after 3 seasons of primarily heating 1800 sq. ft. I'm an R&D;guy in the boiler industry and have entertained the idea of using a 22 ga. piece of SS I have lying around on top of the bottom brick as a heat shield, to interrupt the chemical process that seems to be taking place there. I load the stove carefully, so the only significant physical damage to the brick comes from shoveling the ash. This shield should remove both sources of wear on the brick, and while it may burn out relatively quickly, it shouldn't melt or stick to the brick..or would it? Has anyone tried anything like this? Is there a good reason not to do this I'm missing? Any ideas will be appreciated...I love the stove, btw; I use very dry wood and tinker quite a bit, and I routinely produce thin smoke for no longer than 2-3 minutes at startup, <5 minutes when reloading, and zero visible emissions the rest of the time. 
Tom


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## madrone (Sep 2, 2009)

jtp10181 said:
			
		

> MarkG said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like a good move for the bottom line. Cheaper shipping, plus a custom cut consumable to be replaced every so often. "Use only Quadrafire brand refills. Other refills may void warranty."


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## karri0n (Sep 3, 2009)

Precaud made some findings in regard to the lightweight bricks. The lightweight, white bricks that Quad uses are much higher refractory than tha heavy"yellow" bricks in a lot of other stove(standard firebrick). The lighter mass of them also gives them less thermal mass. these lighter bricks reflect much more of the heat back into the firebox, and pull less heat out due to thermal mass. This results in a very large increase in both efficiency and stovetop temp. Durability is absolutely an issue. Precaud found that out of his findings, the best material was skamol, but the price was very high in compariosn, and durability remains an issue. 

Personally, I wouldn't recommend putting heavy firebrick into a quad unit. You will drop your efficiency by a lot considering it was engineered for the lightweight bricks.


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## begreen (Sep 3, 2009)

I'd try replacing just the bottom bricks with standard firebrick. The are the most vulnerable to bangs by logs and scrapes by rakes and shovels. This is where I would expect to see the most wear.


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## madison (Sep 4, 2009)

Gunner said:
			
		

> wxman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Image of firebox/brick of PE T6, with 24/7 burning 10/08 - 5/09, (OEM firebrick)


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## precaud (Sep 12, 2009)

karri0n said:
			
		

> Durability is absolutely an issue. Precaud found that out of his findings, the best material was skamol, but the price was very high in compariosn, and durability remains an issue.



I think the Skamol (i.e. vermiculite) panels would be a good replacement for pumice bricks on the bottom of the firebox. It's certainly more rugged than the pumice. And since it has very good convective/conductive insulation but pretty high absorption of radiant energy, this is probably the best place in a stove to use the stuff, since it will be covered by embers and ash.

Not to mention, it can be had quite cheaply right now. Do a search on eBay for "vermiculite baffle" and you'll see a seller in Utah who must have tons of the stuff. These are the same vermiculite panels, made by Skamol, that I bought from them this spring for my experiments. It's good stuff and is easy to work with.


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