# Go Tesla



## vinny11950 (May 26, 2016)

Texting and driving?  No problem.  The thing drives itself.

Conventional car companies are going to have a fight on their hands just to keep up with the new technology that integrates it all to your smart phone.


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## begreen (May 28, 2016)

Out of my tax bracket. Bentley pictured is an ugly beast. Tesla in the picture looks like a stormtrooper's vehicle.


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## BrotherBart (May 28, 2016)

I just want a new Dodge minivan. My go-go car days are way behind me.  Start. Go to grocery store. Come home. Don't cost me six hundred dollars for changing the spark plugs.


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## jatoxico (May 29, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> Texting and driving?  No problem.  The thing drives itself.
> 
> Conventional car companies are going to have a fight on their hands just to keep up with the new technology that integrates it all to your smart phone.



That was good.


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## vinny11950 (May 30, 2016)

What's exciting about the new Tesla cars is that they are pushing the car designs in ways outside the box, because they are outside the box.  They are the classic outsider / upstart that does something radically differently that the traditional auto makers can't do because they are stuck in their old conglomerate model, which is impossible to move at times.  Think of the Takata exploding airbags scandal; they have known for years their airbags could harm people yet they kept making them, and the auto makers kept using them, even though they knew what was happening, and they probably knew there would be a day of reckoning.  I mean they have issued recalls on about 40 million cars worldwide!  Holy cow, that's a lot of cars.

Here's a good article on why the dealerships are fighting Tesla on their sales model, and how the low maintenance of electric vehicles threatens the money-making-dealership-maintenance-cash-cow.

http://www.wired.com/2014/03/car-dealers-fear-teslas-plan-end-oil-changes-forever/


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## Lake Girl (May 30, 2016)

While an interesting concept, what happens when cell service drops?  There are crazy long gaps in cell service around my home and on the way to either Thunder Bay or Winnipeg.  While humans drivers are bad enough, what happens when you have programs crafted by humans and electrical system malfunction or dropped cell service?  The Spark has had two programming flaws ...  Don't have to look any farther than this forum and the E2 stoves to see what happens when there are programming errors...

What??  No more planned pillage of car owners in the form of maintenance?  I'm sure they will find a way

Can you tell I have control issues ... bad enough teaching my kids to drive


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## vinny11950 (May 30, 2016)

I am sorry to say the programming ship sailed long ago.  I am sure there will be horror stories of cars malfunctioning because of code errors, but I am also pretty sure that those casualties will be small compared to all the lives saved by computers saving the cars from distracted drivers (texting, talking on the phone, and so on).  Even at night sometimes, on certain patches of road, I can't see much in the distance because of road bend and headlights in the opposite direction blinding me or making it hard to see, but a few sensors and software would be a nice safety net to have.

I think control will be a major hurtle for people to get over, but once you get in the car and relax, I think the attitudes will change.  It could be generational thing too.  Kids now look at their smart phones all day, so they will be more trusting.

But what do I know, I still drive a 1996 Jeep Cherokee.  Easy to fix myself and handles pretty damn good.


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## jatoxico (May 30, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> What's exciting about the new Tesla cars is that they are pushing the car designs in ways outside the box, because they are outside the box. They are the classic outsider / upstart that does something radically differently that the traditional auto makers can't do because they are stuck in their old conglomerate model



A currently airing auto business oriented show on PBS discussed Tesla from a Wall Street point of view. The opinion was Tesla's biggest hurdle is on the manufacturing side. It was said that Tesla could take advantage of some experienced contract manufacturing outfits that could have them up an running in as little as 6 months.

Tesla apparently is opting to develop their plants and processes themselves. If they did contract out the manufacturing of the 3 for instance Wall Street would probably reward them and they could make a great deal of money. But I would _guess _they want to remain independent of the old auto industry as much as they can and avoid becoming reliant on the traditional suppliers and manufacturing models.


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## Lake Girl (May 30, 2016)

I can't believe you said the programming ship has sailed ... a little earlier you mention the air bag recalls.  Mesh technological control, rush to market  and corporate greed.  It happens now so why should the future be any different?

Sensors may start out at top rate quality but manufacturers always find a way to cut corners or reduce costs.  How much were the ignition switch costs for the GM vehicles?  Pennies compared to the total cost of the vehicle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls


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## jatoxico (May 30, 2016)

vinny11950 said:


> But what do I know, I still drive a 1996 Jeep Cherokee. Easy to fix myself and handles pretty damn good.



I have a 98 that I bought to have as a third vehicle. They are pretty easy to work on which is good as it doesn't like to stay fixed for very long! 

Just did ball joints, hubs and changed differential fluids. Its something of a hobby so not really the point but saved a bundle in labor on that job.

One tip is to buy and use use Fluid Film, cheap, non-toxic and environmentally friendly. Rust is the enemy of the Cherokee.


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## vinny11950 (May 30, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> I can't believe you said the programming ship has sailed ... a little earlier you mention the air bag recalls.  Mesh technological control, rush to market  and corporate greed.  It happens now so why should the future be any different?
> 
> Sensors may start out at top rate quality but manufacturers always find a way to cut corners or reduce costs.  How much were the ignition switch costs for the GM vehicles?  Pennies compared to the total cost of the vehicle... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls



Hey, I agree with your misgivings about where this is going, but I also can't see smarter cars/vehicles killing more people than people drivers.  It is uncharted territory because not all software development will be the same, so some software will be good and others will be bad and prone to hacking, which raises more concerns.

What I meant with the ship has sailed comment is that all or most new vehicles already have software running critical functions on the vehicle, so it makes sense to upgrade new cars and keep pushing the process forward for more safety, better efficiency, and maybe better ride sharing.


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## vinny11950 (May 30, 2016)

jatoxico said:


> One tip is to buy and use use Fluid Film



Good to know.  I have been using LPS 3, but I will check out the Fluid Film.  I also did the ball joints last year (and everything else in the front suspension), lots of fun.


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## vinny11950 (May 30, 2016)

It is not far fetched to imagine a near future where people adjust their lives and cities to have minimal car use, so that there is a shared fleet of smart electric cars waiting to be called on by users on their smart phones for general tasks around town.  The vehicle arrives at your door and drives you to your location.  For our generation it seems crazy to give up so much control of our schedules and the control of steering the car, but I think future generations will trust technology more and will view a car as a smart device that gets you from one point to another.  They will not want to burden of owning and maintaining a car with all the upfront costs.  Instead they will pay incremental fees as they need it.


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## Knots (Jun 3, 2016)

The guy I commute with talked Tesla into loaning him a car.  We commuted to work in it one day.  

He rolls up onto I95, gets up to speed and then puts it on auto pilot.  With his hands off the wheel and feet off the pedals it would negotiate the corners, slow for cars in front, and change lanes (if you put on the signal).

After I thought about sensor reliability or what happens if a bird hits one of the sensors, I asked him to put his hands back on the wheel.

Cruise control.  That's about as far as I can go with this stuff yet...


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## blades (Jun 3, 2016)

Sensors fail,  computers fail, wiring harnesses that are anything but robust, also not sealed against intrusion at various plug points.   Backing plates( mostly as a heat sink) of a dissimilar metal to that which they are mounted leading to corrosive failure. Oem replacement parts that are not correct or have significantly different operating parameters than the original as well as different pin assignments. The sad part is none of these are new problems.  The latest twist which didn't get much play outside of automotive circles is MFG's considering their software of the computer as proprietary  hence any modification other than their own is a criminal offense. I do not know how that court case finished out though.


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## begreen (Jun 3, 2016)

Add that modern wiring insulation is often soy-based plastic which appeals to mice and rats. This is increasingly becoming an issue with modern cars and will be until some sort of bitter or deterring additive is added to these plastics.


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## firefighterjake (Jun 4, 2016)

Knots said:


> The guy I commute with talked Tesla into loaning him a car.  We commuted to work in it one day.
> 
> He rolls up onto I95, gets up to speed and then puts it on auto pilot.  With his hands off the wheel and feet off the pedals it would negotiate the corners, slow for cars in front, and change lanes (if you put on the signal).
> 
> ...



You're a better man than me . . . I don't even like cruise control.


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## Swedishchef (Jun 4, 2016)

Meh. While I am happy to see Tesla build and push the car world to a whole new level, I won't buy one. I enjoy my 2005 IMpreza. No VDC, stability control, nothing. I hit the gas and it goes. I turn the wheel and it turns. When I drive, the phone is off and my attention is on the road. IN terms of cost...well, let's see long term reliability. A friend of mine just purchased a Dodge Powerwagon. The touch screen (which now controls everything) has a 3 year warranty and costs $6000 to replace. You had better hope that at 3 years and 1 day it doesn't short out.

Andrew


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## begreen (Jun 4, 2016)

Unless you are in a self-driving car, touch screen controls are not safe, particularly when used for common functions like heater/defrost control. Sooner or later there is going to be a lawsuit where there were serious injuries due to someone taking their eyes off the road to adjust the controls via a touch screen.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 4, 2016)

Swedishchef said:


> A friend of mine just purchased a Dodge Powerwagon. The touch screen (which now controls everything) has a 3 year warranty and costs $6000 to replace. You had better hope that at 3 years and 1 day it doesn't short out.


The 2013 Spark with MyLink (phone and radio) did make the 3 years but it was past the 60,000 km just barely.  However, my Hubby had been having troubles with it dropping his cell for months before that.  The dealer couldn't rectify issue when it was under 60,000km.  Dealer didn't care when it all died, they wanted $500 for a new unit ...  Not impressed.


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## Swedishchef (Jun 5, 2016)

begreen said:


> Unless you are in a self-driving car, touch screen controls are not safe, particularly when used for common functions like heater/defrost control. Sooner or later there is going to be a lawsuit where there were serious injuries due to someone taking their eyes off the road to adjust the controls via a touch screen.


We are banning cellphones from cars..yet we are building them with touch screens in order to control everything. And must navigate from one system to another (from the radio to the climate control, etc) in order to make the changes we want. Ugh. Counter productive in terms of driver attention. And trust me, at work we have a 2015 Chrysler 200S and 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee; both vehicles have touch screens to control everything. Kind of reminds me of Flight of the Navigator (anyone remember that movie..).

A


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## jatoxico (Jun 5, 2016)

Replacing ordinary controls with circuit boards and touch screens is not a good trend. Pointless over engineering in most instances.


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## vinny11950 (Jun 5, 2016)

Swedishchef said:


> Flight of the Navigator (anyone remember that movie..)



Great movie!


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## begreen (Jun 5, 2016)

Swedishchef said:


> We are banning cellphones from cars..yet we are building them with touch screens in order to control everything. And must navigate from one system to another (from the radio to the climate control, etc) in order to make the changes we want. Ugh. Counter productive in terms of driver attention. And trust me, at work we have a 2015 Chrysler 200S and 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee; both vehicles have touch screens to control everything. Kind of reminds me of Flight of the Navigator (anyone remember that movie..).



Push back at the manufacturers. Let them know you don't like this. I met a guy last week that went and bought back his 10 yr old Ford F250 because he didn't like the touch screen controls in his new Ford truck. First gen Chevy Volt owners told GM that they loved the car, but hated the capacitance touch center console because too many basic functions required taking ones eyes off the road. They listened and degeeked the new Volts with analog controls for most normal functions outside of the radio and GPS. Smart move and the press reviews are applauding it.


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## maple1 (Jun 6, 2016)

Swedishchef said:


> We are banning cellphones from cars..yet we are building them with touch screens in order to control everything. And must navigate from one system to another (from the radio to the climate control, etc) in order to make the changes we want. Ugh. Counter productive in terms of driver attention. And trust me, at work we have a 2015 Chrysler 200S and 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee; both vehicles have touch screens to control everything. Kind of reminds me of Flight of the Navigator (anyone remember that movie..).
> 
> A



Techno gadgets - ruining everything from driving to relationships.

Kind of sad, really.


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## Jags (Jun 6, 2016)

<geek> All of your electrons are belong to us </geek>


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2016)

Welcome.... to the machine.


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## peakbagger (Jun 6, 2016)

My fundamental question is will self driving cars go the speed limit or will it go with the traffic?. Much as I despise it, I have to drive down from the woods from our town with two traffic lights to the 495 area in Massachusetts. The road system is blatantly undersized and is running well over its design capacity. How the entire system works is that the majority of the drivers run well faster than the posted limit and maintain far closer spacing between cars. There are also periods of time both posted and not posted where driving in the break down lane is acceptable. When driving in a traffic jamb where a driver needs to change lanes its a game of chicken sometimes to see if the person in the adjoining lane will open a slot for the person changing lanes. The police are pretty well dedicated to dealing with the inevitable accidents that will occur and if they did enforce the speed limits the entire system would slow down or stop.  My belief is that self driving cars just wont play well in heavy traffic and will become rolling roadblocks.

I guess someone could argue that all one has to be is ban all the non self driving cars off the road and that will cure the problem.


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## Jags (Jun 6, 2016)

Great - now I got Floyd stuck in my head.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 6, 2016)

peakbagger said:


> My fundamental question is will self driving cars go the speed limit or will it go with the traffic?. Much as I despise it, I have to drive down from the woods from our town with two traffic lights to the 495 area in Massachusetts. The road system is blatantly undersized and is running well over its design capacity. How the entire system works is that the majority of the drivers run well faster than the posted limit and maintain far closer spacing between cars. There are also periods of time both posted and not posted where driving in the break down lane is acceptable. When driving in a traffic jamb where a driver needs to change lanes its a game of chicken sometimes to see if the person in the adjoining lane will open a slot for the person changing lanes. The police are pretty well dedicated to dealing with the inevitable accidents that will occur and if they did enforce the speed limits the entire system would slow down or stop.  My belief is that self driving cars just wont play well in heavy traffic and will become rolling roadblocks.
> 
> I guess someone could argue that all one has to be is ban all the non self driving cars off the road and that will cure the problem.



There is a cure for traffic.  It is called the motorcycle.  Other countries have been doing it for 100 years....and they never go the speed limit....well,,,mine don't 

Maybe not the most practical thing for NE winter, but in much of America, if you legalized lane splitting (like all of the civilized world) like CA....it would work out very nicely.


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## peakbagger (Jun 6, 2016)

I agree motorcycles help but basically useless from about October to mid may  as motorcycles have a tough time on ice or the sand they use to try to remove the ice. Come visit any highway or secondary road inside of 495 in Mass from about 7 AM to 6 PM and be prepared to wonder why road rage isn't more common place.


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## maple1 (Jun 6, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> There is a cure for traffic.  It is called the motorcycle.  Other countries have been doing it for 100 years....and they never go the speed limit....well,,,mine don't
> 
> Maybe not the most practical thing for NE winter, but in much of America, if you legalized lane splitting (like all of the civilized world) like CA....it would work out very nicely.



They're only good for half the year, in a lot more areas than the NE. Not a practical family vehicle either.

(Motorcycle owner here.)


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## begreen (Jun 6, 2016)

FWIW MA traffic on the ring roads around Boston is insane. The do play chicken with their cars. It is more aggressive and unsafe than driving in than Mexico City.

Lost my best friend to a motorcycle accident. Not his fault, he probably had less than a second to react.  I like cycles, but not in a city or dense traffic.
In 2013 *motorcyclists* were about 26 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a *crash* per vehicle mile traveled and five times more likely to be injured, according to NHTSA. (Note: *statistics* on fatal *motorcycle* crashes are also available from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.)
http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes


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## maple1 (Jun 6, 2016)

Yes - I've seen some close calls involving bikes & cars, mostly cars turning in front of them.  Scary. Like the bike was invisible. Actually had to call 911 once, I was following an elderly lady in my car, she stopped to make a left turn when she didn't need to stop then stepped on the gas again right in front of a young guy coming the other way on a bike. I was grabbing my cell phone before it happened, I knew what was going to happen before it did. Luckily there were no injuries in that one.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 6, 2016)

maple1 said:


> Yes - I've seen some close calls involving bikes & cars, mostly cars turning in front of them.  Scary. Like the bike was invisible. Actually had to call 911 once, I was following an elderly lady in my car, she stopped to make a left turn when she didn't need to stop then stepped on the gas again right in front of a young guy coming the other way on a bike. I was grabbing my cell phone before it happened, I knew what was going to happen before it did. Luckily there were no injuries in that one.


Pretty much what happened to my sister ... she apparently did a screwed up superman flight that she doesn't remember.  Design of motorcycle saved her legs, leathers and helmet did their job but couldn't avoid the broken ribs and nerve damage to her hip.  After much review, realized she did nothing wrong, bought a new BMW.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 7, 2016)

Been a lifetime rider.  I know the risks.  But much of this is because we don't have a riding culture.  If 40% of city dwellers rode..dramatic differences start to happen in how other drivers react to riders.

Lanesplit with stopped traffic in a city were it is not legal and watch people lose their minds with anger.  Americans have very weird perceptions about being wronged when in a vehicle.  Ego tripping?

Times will change.  I see more riding in our future not less.


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## Lake Girl (Jun 7, 2016)

sportbikerider78 said:


> Been a lifetime rider. I know the risks. But much of this is because we don't have a riding culture. If 40% of city dwellers rode..dramatic differences start to happen in how other drivers react to riders.


Daughter spent a year in Thailand.  Motorcycles common but she mentioned that drivers are very aggressive there too...


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## peakbagger (Jun 7, 2016)

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/norway-ban-gas-car-sales-2025/#:JtgIrxpn4gcoJA


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 7, 2016)

Lake Girl said:


> Daughter spent a year in Thailand.  Motorcycles common but she mentioned that drivers are very aggressive there too...


Yeah..but thats a 3rd world country.  They haven't been driving as long as we have.  We should know better.


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## peakbagger (Jun 7, 2016)

A major thread drift here but what they heck. US fatalities per miles traveled have dropped significantly long term and continue to drop despite an overall dumbing down of US drivers. The main reason is that cars and trucks are being built far more survivable. Unfortunately there is not a lot to be done to motorcycles to make them significantly safer.  Third world countries have far higher casualty  and major injury rates per miles traveled thus making comparisons on what works on third world countries not really germane to what works in the US, assuming that the American public would not accept a significant increase in road fatalities.


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## vinny11950 (Jun 8, 2016)

Road safety is where vehicle electronics will prove most effective, correcting a lot of drivers mental errors from drifting when tired or distracted, to sensing around blind bends or at night in hard to see situations.  I imagine freight trucks with tired drivers could use some help too.

But as mentioned before, it has to be done in a way that doesn't add to the distractions.

Then again, you can't fix negligent - just yesterday riding my bicycle I saw a big dump truck pull out of a work site and the driver didn't even check for oncoming traffic.  I look a little closer at the cabin and sure enough, the driver was talking on the cell phone.  I see this all the time with school bus drivers, cops, traffic cops, delivery trucks, and so on.  A certain percentage of people don't care so maybe technology has to figure out a way around them.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 8, 2016)

I just want driverless cars so I can finally legally drink a beer on the way to the hardware store.


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## billb3 (Jun 8, 2016)

Driverless cars won't be on/off their meds ....

They'll have programming errors and glitches instead.


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 8, 2016)

What happens when you get the blue death screen in your driverless car. Does it stay on the road while it reboots. Or you get a nasty virus in the software. Sorry officer my computer didnt see that stop sign.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 8, 2016)

"404 - Road not found"


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## Jags (Jun 8, 2016)

Seasoned Oak said:


> What happens when you get the blue death screen in your driverless car.


You will just need to call India with a "hold time of greater than 15 minutes" to here "Bob" read questions from a manual before handing you off to a level 2 team located in Texas.


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## Jags (Jun 8, 2016)

Gives a whole new meaning to "reboot into Safe Mode".


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## peakbagger (Jun 8, 2016)

The downside of heavily integrated electronics is that obsolescence happens faster. In NH and many other states a perfectly functioning car can fail inspection because of a fault code in the computer. Until the fault is gone the car will not pass inspection which basically drops the value of the car to a parts car (or in my case sell it to someone in an adjoining state who doesn't have that requirement). The days of low cost beaters is pretty much gone as inevitably the emissions equipment shows a code.  

Tesla has gotten pretty heavy handed with vehicles that have been serviced by other entities, unlike any other car on the road, the option of third party service apparently is not acceptable to Tesla.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 8, 2016)

Jags said:


> Gives a whole new meaning to "reboot into Safe Mode".



"Where are you Dad? You were supposed to pick me up at school?"

"Sitting in the garage son. Waiting for the OS update download and reboot to finish. It says it is '34% complete Please do not turn off car until finished'."


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## Seasoned Oak (Jun 8, 2016)

The coyotes and other smugglers will be able to deliver their cargo without ever running the risk of arrest. License suspended? ,no problem just sit in the back. How would this car be pulled over by police? They would have to use the built in self destruct option. Whose at fault if the car runs over a pedestrian, Elon Musk?


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## Jags (Jun 8, 2016)

The next mechanic class.....


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## begreen (Jun 8, 2016)

The question of liability is intriguing. Eventually with wide employment and acceptance of autonomous cars insurance will probably end up being a form of product liability insurance. In the meantime there are a lot of scenarios to be figured out and soon. Autonomous features will be showing up on luxury vehicles soon. 
https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=34960


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## sportbikerider78 (Jun 8, 2016)

I don't think we will see real, affordable, driverless cars go mainstream for quite some time.


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## begreen (Jun 8, 2016)

Likely true. Seems like adoption will depend on the country. England and Germany appear to be moving more aggressively in this direction, but that could change.


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## Knots (Jul 1, 2016)

Once in 130 million miles - which is great unless it happens to be you.  Not sure where they get the 130 million mile number though.  Does the car "phone home" every time it is on autopilot?

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss


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## kennyp2339 (Jul 1, 2016)

http://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...t-death-highlights-autonomous-risks/86591130/


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## Ashful (Jul 1, 2016)

Knots said:


> Once in 130 million miles - which is great unless it happens to be you.  Not sure where they get the 130 million mile number though.  Does the car "phone home" every time it is on autopilot?
> 
> https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss


Not sure the answer to your question, whether that number is estimated or actually logged from on-board systems, but I wonder how this compares to human drivers?  I've never been in an accident at the wheel, myself.  However, I suspect the national average is probably 100-1000 times worse than Tesla's reported number, maybe one major accident per several hundred thousand miles driven.


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## begreen (Jul 1, 2016)

I've read that Teslas are constantly reporting back data like position, speed, temp inside and outside, battery state, etc. and when in auto-pilot mode and driver corrects steering. Owners sign an agreement to send back data when they buy the car.

The accident death rate has dramatically declined due to the advent of many safety features and better tires and perhaps stricter DUI laws. 1 in 130 million is an unacceptable ratio, but not out of line with the average.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...dia/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png
For driving, one can use the U.S. average fatal automobile fatality rate of 1.5 per 100 million vehicle-miles for 2000[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_safety_in_the_United_States


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## Lake Girl (Jul 1, 2016)

Investigation will be interesting ... will they release details?  Truck driver said he heard Harry Potter movie running ... 
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/01/truc...ccident-says-driver-was-watching-a-movie.html


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## Ashful (Jul 1, 2016)

begreen said:


> The accident death rate has dramatically declined due to the advent of many safety features and better tires and perhaps stricter DUI laws. 1 in 130 million is an unacceptable ratio, but not out of line with the average.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans...dia/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png
> For driving, one can use the U.S. average fatal automobile fatality rate of 1.5 per 100 million vehicle-miles for 2000[1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_safety_in_the_United_States


The fact that this accident resulted in a death brings more attention to what happened, but let's not let that shape the statistics we consider.  After all, which accidents may or may not result in death can be so random.

I hope people are able to focus on the more meaningful statistic, accident rates, not death rates.  On the metric of accident rates, how does the Tesla system compare to human drivers?


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## begreen (Jul 1, 2016)

Hard to answer with a nascent technology like this. Particularly when there are folks doing crazy chit far beyond reasonable at this juncture. For sure there are a whole lot more accidents caused by cell phone users getting distracted while driving. For that we have some metrics. It's estimated the one out of four accidents are caused by texting while driving.  Given those odds, autonomous driving should be mandatory for texting addicted drivers.


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## BrotherBart (Jul 1, 2016)

The first one where it kills somebody in the other vehicle is gonna be when all hell breaks loose. Insurance companies will hit the exits.


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## vinny11950 (Jul 12, 2016)

Tesla is learning some hard lessons with this accident.  It seems they are promising too much without teaching the drivers all that can go wrong when the right set of conditions trip up the sensors.  Also, they have been using non-disclosure agreements that have troubled the NHTSA because it would curtail reporting defects to the agency.

I guess the only safety statistics that will matter will be between the different car makers to see whose smart cars get into the least amount of accidents.


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## begreen (Jul 12, 2016)

A bit more info
https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/12/wsj-sec-investigates-tesla-crash/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...756584-3fc3-11e6-84e8-1580c7db5275_story.html


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## Lake Girl (Jul 12, 2016)

Still need more info ... how fast was he driving?  If he had been engaged in driving, could he have avoided the accident?  Accident reconstruction should be able to answer that.

Still comes down to the human driver error by relying to heavily on the system and ignoring the cautions provided by Tesla...

Trucker has not been charged yet...


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## Lake Girl (Jul 13, 2016)

Another autopilot/driver fail with Tesla...
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-crash-montana-blamed-autopilot/

While it was purportedly prompting driver for hands on the wheel, with the first hit, it should have braked and stopped immediately.  Would suspect a loss of sensor with the amount of damage and program shortfalls.  Did it prompt driver control before or after first guide post hit?


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## begreen (Jul 13, 2016)

Driver claims he didn't understand the alert, says he speaks Mandarin, not English. Also, the system instructions appear to specifically warn that the feature is for divided, marked highway driving. Not rural country roads. I suppose the directions were in English too instead of Chinese.


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## sportbikerider78 (Jul 15, 2016)

I'm interested to see how these systems handle stupid people.  We all see them.  They seem to be breeding at an exponential rate.  People that will use autopilot in bad weather, snow, fog, ice, ect.  How does an intelligent system engineer around the ridiculous mistakes truly stupid people make?

Locally here in CNY, a driver drove his car into a tree playing a video game on his phone.

These systems are only as good as the sensor technology is.  The reactions to that data are only as good as the inputs from those sensors and the output to the PLC/computer.


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## begreen (Jul 15, 2016)

Tesla and the media have hyped up the promise of self-driving cars. This has led to exaggerated expectations. Truly autonomous, full automation cars are a long way off. The June issue of Scientific American has a good article on the differences between the progressions from driver assistance to partial automation, and from conditional automation to full automation. This is s truly challenging  software nightmare. The problem of full automation is large enough that the author doesn't see it solved until about 2075. Until then, my preference would be for Tesla to not allow hands off driving because there are too many variables that are not accounted for and that will eventually cause a failure and potential fatality or injury.


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## begreen (Jul 18, 2016)

This article brings up the question that has been nagging me. Musk claimed that it might have been the bright sky + white truck that confused the collision avoidance systems. What bugs me is that the car has both visual and radar sensors. AFAIK radar doesn't care about bright skies, so what really failed here?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougnew...-will-make-changes-to-autopilot/#269f727d5d54
The article goes on to point out that Consumer Reports is calling for some changes to make the beta test software in the Tesla safer.

Disable the Autosteer feature of Autopilot, “until it can be reprogrammed to require drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel.”
Refrain from referring to the system as Autopilot because it “is misleading and potentially dangerous.”
Provide clearer guidance to owners on how the system should be used “and its limitations.”
Issue “no more beta releases” and test all safety-critical systems before public deployment.


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