# Orlan 60 Scary night!!



## Gilby (Mar 13, 2012)

Hey again guys.  Small recap...I have the Orlan 60 that pumps water to coils in two furnaces to heat my house.  I inherited the boiler when I bought the house and have had my fair share of issues getting it to work properly.  Happy to say you all here have made it a warm winter!  

Recently, our outside temperatures have been warm.  Up to 60 during the day...down in the teens at night.  Not bad for a March in Wyoming.  Since I'm running low on wood and trying to limp my way to spring/summer, I didn't run my unit at all this past weekend.  Last night it was a tad chilly so I decided to load my boiler and heat my house up.  This brings me to my current problem....

When my boiler and house are both up to temp, everything functions beautifully.  The problem occurs when I'm starting up the boiler from cold and the house isn't quite up to temp.  My pumps just randomly shut down.  I'll have the bottom chamber open and one furnace on warming the house.  My water temp will hover in the 160's - and with the chamber door open, the boiler can handle the load and warm the house at the same time.  A few times I've gone out to check on it and the water temp is 195 or even E1 or E2.  The pumps will just shut off on their own and the water temp keeps growing and my furnaces are blowing cold air.  

Last night I had the scare of my life.  I had a fire going and warming the water.  Bottom chamber was open.  I checked the water temp and it was at 165.  I turned BOTH furnaces on to begin warming the house.  Shouldn't have been an issue, but obviously the pumps stopped circulating...thus my furnaces blowing cold air and my water temp climbing rapidly.  Literally not even five minutes later I heard a horrible loud hissing sound coming from my garage.  After a swear word, I sprinted out to see the largest, loudest, hottest steam and water bath taking place.  My garage is 30 feet wide.  The water blowing out of the top of my boiler soaked the far wall...and would have probably gone 60 feet had there not been a wall there.  I'm pretty sure it fried my garage door opener.  I never did get it to function again.  Hopefully after a couple days of drying out it'll work.  Needless to say....an utter mess...and quite scary.  If you've had it happen, you know...if you haven't...I can't explain the sound or size!!  

I obviously closed the chamber and the damper and pushed start to get the pumps moving water while it was blowing up.  Both furnaces were on...so it cooled down pretty quick.  I had no water pressure left so it took awhile to repressurize.  The water temp was as high as 260 degrees.  Oops.  It ended up cooling down and settling in at 174 as I mopped up water and dried off everything in the garage.  I was hesitant, but I still ended up loading the boiler and my house was warm all night.  Being a rookie, I believe my boiler did what it was suppose to do in that situation.  Did I do any harm?  I had no leaks anywhere after it all took place, but after it cools down today, I'm curious to see if things start to drip.

Short story long...why do my pumps not function when I'm warming the boiler??  I've never had them quit while the house is warm and the boiler is idling...only while I'm warming it up.  Is it requiring extra electricity for those pumps to push colder water?  Shorting it out?  I have to push the start button and you'll hear the pumps kick on and start circulating water and the pipes will warm up.  Sometimes while I'm standing there, they'll shut off on their own again even though the furncaces are calling for heat.  More than once just jiggling the controller will kick them on.  Bum controller?  loose wire?  I'm not sold on either because it ONLY happens while warming.  Any suggestions??!?!?


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## stee6043 (Mar 13, 2012)

First and foremost, why was water blowing "out the top of the boiler"?  Your pressure releif, if it meets code, should point down and exit not further than 6" from the finished floor.  If your pressure releief points up this is a very dangerous setup (as you have now seen).  I'd recommend correcting this issue immediately.


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## Gilby (Mar 13, 2012)

Beats me!  I can't imagine that had I been standing on the other side of the garage I would have been in good shape.  I'll take a pic of the setup and post later today so you can see and possibly advise.  I've found not much of this setup would be considered up to code.


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## mr.fixit (Mar 13, 2012)

You really shouldn't operate the boiler with the lower chamber door open for any length of time. Its ok to crack slightly when first lighting a fire to get the draft going but then it should remain closed.Running it open is like venting your chimney indoors!

After repeated overheats you probably have air in the system.

Is the main pump on the back of the boiler controlled by the EKO controller? Does the little green light on the controller come on when the pump does?

I think the last time you posted with problems no one here could really understand how your plumbing arrangement worked. Is it still the same?

This summer might be a good time for a re-do on the plumbing and add even a small amount of buffer/storage,it would help alot with the over heating.


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## Reggie Dunlap (Mar 13, 2012)

I'd fix that pressure relief valve ASAP before someone gets badly burned...


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## Chris Hoskin (Mar 13, 2012)

get a qualified heating contractor in there before your next fire.  Shut that thing down until you have had a professional diagnose and fix these problems.


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## Gilby (Mar 13, 2012)

> get a qualified heating contractor in there before your next fire.



Easier said than done.  Podunk Wyoming.  There is a guy here that has an outdoor unit that kind of "figures things out"...but the boiler I inherited was a do-it-yourself from a guy that learned most of what he learned off of this website...order the Orlan...and installed 98% of it himself.  Not sure where to turn to find someone that knows these systems and how they're supposed to be installed.  I'll do some looking around.


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## Gilby (Mar 13, 2012)

Here is a pic of the release (or at least where all the water and steam blew out of).  The pipe is the vertical pipe out of the top of the boiler.  About 6.5' off the floor I'm guessing?  High enough to spray 30 feet!


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## maple1 (Mar 13, 2012)

As mentioned above, there is supposed to be a pipe affixed to the outlet of that, that would turn & run down towards & almost to the floor - by rights, it should run to a drain.

I wonder what else is wrong? Better load up on pictures, think you might be needing them here.


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## stee6043 (Mar 13, 2012)

Gilby said:
			
		

> Here is a pic of the release (or at least where all the water and steam blew out of).  The pipe is the vertical pipe out of the top of the boiler.  About 6.5' off the floor I'm guessing?  High enough to spray 30 feet!



And that, my friends, is why we have building codes. 

Scary stuff!  You really need to have someone look at your system.


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## ewdudley (Mar 13, 2012)

Gilby said:
			
		

> > get a qualified heating contractor in there before your next fire.
> 
> 
> 
> Easier said than done.  Podunk Wyoming...



Then why didn't you just say so to start with?  For a while there I thought you were endangering the occupants, driving up my insurance rates, and embossing an invitation to the heavy hand of government to supervise us all for no good reason.  But if it's not easy enough to suit you, then alrighty!

--ewd


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## Tennman (Mar 13, 2012)

No disrespect to Tarm Guy, but I'm in the same situation regarding "local experienced contractors" in Podunk, Tenn about gasser boilers. If you're like me, you've found your most experienced help right here. Particuarly since you have a EKO.


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## Gilby (Mar 13, 2012)

> Then why didnâ€™t you just say so to start with?  For a while there I thought you were endangering the occupants, driving up my insurance rates, and embossing an invitation to the heavy hand of government to supervise us all for no good reason.  But if itâ€™s not easy enough to suit you, then alrighty!



Fully appreciate the sarcasm.  I know nothing about these boilers.  I'm trying to learn, thus the questions.  I contacted an Orlan dealer and the guy had a strong accent and said he has no reps or contacts in Wyoming and basically hung up on me.  I called a local dealer that sells outdoor units (not Orlan), but doesn't install them due to liability reasons.  He suggested I have a plumber and/or electrician come out to inspect.  I have already had a plumber at my house to the tune of $78 an hour "trying to figure out my system."  For a lot less than $78 an hour, I can learn just as much here as he knows surveying what I have. I realize that what I have might not be the safest - but the first thing I always realize is I don't know what I don't know.  I had no idea my boiler would react the way it did in that situation last night.  Nor did I have any idea that the blowoff was installed inproperly.  Now I do and I'll get it fixed.

For the record, I sell insurance for a living...so my carelessness driving up your rates just makes me more money.  Seems like a win win for me.  

My point was simply I have exhausted my efforts to find someone in my area that knows these boilers.  Like stated previoiusly, my best source of information has been you guys and this website.  If you can help, great.  I appreciate it.


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## maple1 (Mar 13, 2012)

Bright side - the blow off did exactly what it was supposed to do. It was just mis-directed (and nobody injured, thankfully).

Try looking for heating contractors maybe? A good one should be able to size up your system & point out difficiencies in relatively little time. Not all plumbers have a lot of experience with hot water heating systems. Gassifier/Orlan intricacies? I think the best source for that is right here - although sometimes it takes a while to sort things out over the internets.


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## stee6043 (Mar 13, 2012)

Gilby said:
			
		

> > Then why didnâ€™t you just say so to start with?  For a while there I thought you were endangering the occupants, driving up my insurance rates, and embossing an invitation to the heavy hand of government to supervise us all for no good reason.  But if itâ€™s not easy enough to suit you, then alrighty!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Here is what I'd recommend:  Take photos of every possibly angle of your boiler.  Start with all of the near-boiler piping and then also take some photos anywhere you see anything "interesting" happening.  Post your photos here in a new thread and you'll get loads of feedback.  Maybe we can find a smoking gun (or steaming, as it were?) quickly and get you squared away.  You have a top of the line boiler on your hands.  You should be able to load it and walk away.  We need to get to the bottom of your plumbing and/or electrical problems.

We can help!


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## taxidermist (Mar 14, 2012)

Do what Stee said and we will get ya going. 

Also tell us what pumps you are running.


Rob


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## ihookem (Mar 14, 2012)

I know how O.P. feels. I got an EKO 25 and no one ever so much has ever seen one or heard of one. The guy who did mine said it was like any wood boiler. It isn't, but kind of is. My plumber never even heard of an OWB. Hard to find guy that really know.


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## taxidermist (Mar 14, 2012)

AHHH YES I remember you now!! 

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/88446/

I think you need to do some re plumbing. 

Take pictures and edit in picasa try to type on the  pics what goes where too.

I see kinda a bypass loop at the boiler with a 3/4 pex? line coming off the top?

You need to look at my pics of my piping from my blog to get a idea of what it should look like. Dont worry about my danfoss bypass I installed that because i installed my boiler in a un insulated barn. Your pics show you are circulating right around your boiler with 1 pex line coming off the top. What size pex is that? Also I cant belive your plumber friend did not have a cow when he seen where the pressure relief valve was.........

We will start there. 

Rob


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## huffdawg (Mar 14, 2012)

Have you had a look at your y strainer on the suction  side of your boiler  circ. pump?


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## huffdawg (Mar 14, 2012)

taxidermist said:
			
		

> AHHH YES I remember you now!!
> 
> https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/88446/
> 
> ...



that 3/4" pex must be a feedwater supply?


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## rkusek (Mar 14, 2012)

Do what several have mentioned and get a digital camera and take shots of every angle at the boiler and other places in your system.  Post them here so we can all see them and help you out.  It won't cost you anything but some time and I know we can help you.  I have to mention a few things about the operation of your Orlan that you should know.  I fire up from cold status quite frequently and you only want to have a few small splits 3-4 when starting a fire with the bottom door open.  I use a propane torch and some thin cardboard (12 pack beer type) to light it and let it roar for maybe 15 minutes with the door open and these 3-4 small dry splits of wood.  This is when I usually haul a load of wood in from the wood pile, sweep up, etc. and should I happen to get distracted this is not enough wood to cause an overheat.  Your Orlan and all down draft gassifiers like it are meant to burn wood from the bottom up in the upper chamber.  You don't want a whole load of wood burning all at once with the lower door open.  The 15 minutes will get your 3-4 pieces red hot and the start of a coal bed.  This will allow you to load up the boiler the rest of the way to the top on these coals, close both upper and lower doors, pull bypass back, and hit start on your controller.  You described "warming your boiler" with the door open and also running the 2 furnaces to start warming the house.  This is not the way the Orlan is suppose to work.  Once you have it loaded, all doors closed, bypass pulled back, the boiler should be allowed to reach operating temp before it starts to even think about warming the house.  I have my boiler controller set to start the pump at 165 an shut back off if it falls below 160 (5 degrees less).  Your Orlan will gassify best when kept hot at least 160 in my opinion and I think many here have found this to work best for them too.  This is using the buttons to toggle through the approximately 25 settings (see manual) not the dial on the right.  The rotary dial on the right sets your boiler target temp and the fan or fans will start to slow down when you approach that temperature.  I set mine at 182 since I have no storage and  if the house is not calling for heat it can easily creep up several degrees (~190) when the boiler fan is not running.  This is what we call idling.  Those with storage will probably set their dials at 195 (the max) because the storage will absorb all the heat.  The EKO or Orlan's will kick on the fan(s) for about 5-10 seconds every 15 minutes or so while idling to keep the coals at the bottom of your load hot even when there is no demand.  When my temp drops to about 175 or so the fan will start up again trying to maintain that 182 temp.  If the house load drops the boiler temp down to 160 my boiler circ will stop running in order to let it catch back up.  I used to have this set much lower like 145 but the boiler seem to never reach higher temps and would smoke considerably more out the chimney.  Basically you want to get it hot and keep it hot (160-185) until you run out of wood.  Those with storage probably shoot for (160-195) until they run out of wood.  An Orlan is not meant to run at 145-150.  If you got your boiler up to 260 during the last overheat you may have damaged something like the controller's sensor.  Does it still work OK?  Do you have any gauges that could verify if it still reads accurately?  The circ on the back of your boiler should be wired into the controller and will cycle appropriately to keep the boiler at the right temperature.  In your last overheat, you wondered why the pumps weren't running to keep it from overheating.  A boiler with a load of wood and lower door open is like a runaway freight train and it might be that the boiler circ couldn't pull off enough heat to keep it from overheating.  On the other hand, if the doors and bypass were closed the fans would slow down and stop to control the temp even if the circ wasn't pulling any heat toward the loads.  Many of us here have horror stories of leaving the bypass open on accident after loading which is another thing that could lead to an overheat of your chimney because the heat is not even flowing through the heat exchanger tubes.  I didn't have a dealer or any boiler people nearby here in Nebraska either but learned everything here on hearth.  They are many of us that were in the same boat at one time trying to troubleshoot a problem and just needed a little help.  Best thing is the help here won't cost you a dime.


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## rkusek (Mar 14, 2012)

Sorry Gilby, I now see you posted pics on a previous post and I see your diagram.  I think Heaterman described what I'm seeing.  You have kind of primary/secondary setup but no circulator on the primary loop.  This could be why works sometimes but other times it doesn't.  I went the P/S route because it seemed the most forgiving and didn't require any balancing between the different loads.  It does use an extra circulator that runs all the time which is one downfall.  Huffdawg and others have skipped the primary/secondary and use a hydraulic separator instead.  If you can find a 100-150 gal tank and want to do some plumbing or have a buddy that could help this summer it would be time well spent.  You have a very good boiler, I wouldn't fight next winter without getting it set up correctly.  You could get another circ for the primary loop but you would need to change your loop to the closely spaced tees if you want it to work right all the time.  Look at Huffdawg pics.  That buffer tank (hydraulic separator) is probably the ticket.  I don't want to redo my setup but if I found a tank I just might.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 14, 2012)

I didn't Know anything about plumbing boilers until I found this sight. I also couldn't find anyone to do the install. All the info
you need is here on this sight if you read the stickys, Follow links to info/resources, Do searches, and ask questions. I managed to 
install mine acceptably from what I learned here.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 14, 2012)

Just looked at the pictures from your old thread. I'd take time this summer to redo your near boiler plumbing. I dont see how it could work right the way it is.


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## huffdawg (Mar 14, 2012)

It don't see a termovar or danfoss tempering valve  either .


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## jebatty (Mar 14, 2012)

Why does the Orlan recommend keeping the lower door to the gasification chamber open during starting or ever? In the Tarm the lower door is always closed, except when the boiler has burned out and a need to clean out ash residue. It seems that keeping the lower door open must also mean that a bypass to the flue from the upper firebox also must be open. That appears to me to be a ticket to a run-away fire.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't ever open the bottom door on the biomass to start a fire.


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## taxidermist (Mar 14, 2012)

jebatty said:
			
		

> Why does the Orlan recommend keeping the lower door to the gasification chamber open during starting or ever? In the Tarm the lower door is always closed, except when the boiler has burned out and a need to clean out ash residue. It seems that keeping the lower door open must also mean that a bypass to the flue from the upper firebox also must be open. That appears to me to be a ticket to a run-away fire.



It is the only way to supply the fire box with air unless you start the fan. I always open my lower to get a fire going because you cant leave the upper door open because the smoke just rolls out. But even with my door open and my pump launch set at 165* I never get a run away boiler because my pump kicks on and moves the water. But if you are just circulating around the bypass loop like he is then there is not enough exchange of cooler water and the boiler overheats.


Rob


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## Gilby (Mar 14, 2012)

Appreciate all the posts.  I will get a bunch of pics at lunch.  Not sure I can do much better than what I posted on the link someone else already pasted on here, but I'll try.  

After reading these, I'm wondering if my pumps are failing because that bottom chamber was open??  I know they've quit with everything closed down too...so I'm not sure.  

I'm going to do a rundown of my procedures to see if I'm on the right track....   I have my water set to start circulating at 160 (per advice I got here).   But here's where I run into a bit of trouble (thus heating with the bottom chamber open).  When I start my boiler from cold (the other night the water temp was at 92 degrees), I build a small fire using some paper and smaller splinters of wood with both chambers cracked open.  Once it gets hot and going, I'll add larger pieces of dry wood.  The water temp will usually increase fairly rapidly until it hits that 160 mark.  When it starts circulating, it drops back down to 150 or so because you have the colder water returning and mixing in.  After a few minutes it'll start catching up again and will climb over 160.  I USED to let it get to 170 before I closed both chambers and pushed the start button, but what  happens is once the chambers are closed and I go turn one furnace on, that one furnace will drop my water temp down to the 150's.  Obviously once that happens, my furnace is blowing nothing but cold air on cold coils because the water isn't circulating (under 160).   So then I have to go shut the furnace off, let the temp get back up to 170, and then turn the furnace back on.  Back and forth and back and forth.  You end up leap-frogging my thermostat one degree at a time until the house is comfortable.  Kind of an utter pain in the a** and takes a lot of time.  So recently, i noticed that if I left that bottom chamber open while my furnace(s) were running, it was able to maintain that 170 water temp while my house heats up faster.  But obviously the problem being if the pumps shut off it becomes the runaway freight train like I found out the other night!

I have the dial set at 175 (per advice from here) and once the house is warm, it all functions beautifully.  It's just the intitial warming process of the boiler AND the house that eats my lunch.  When the house load drops the boiler temp below circulating, my fans blow cold air in the house and the boiler never catches up (and the house drops in temp from the cold air)...thus the babysitting I have to do for an hour every time I cold start.   

After my little ordeal the other night, I let the boiler cool down to the 170 range...I checked everything out to make sure I didn't have any leaks and I let it continue to run.  The digital guauge and the analog gauge (if those are proper terms!) both matched up like they always do and the whole deal functioned the rest of the night.  I was a tad nervous to leave it, but it seemed to be doing what it always did.  Just had to blow off a little steam!      For the record, I spoke with the local guy that has the outdoor units and he said that the pressure release should have been piped through the ceiling and roof and right outside.  After I got off the phone with him I called my plumber and he said you shouldn't pipe anything like that outisde because if it freezes I don't have any release and therefore I basically have a bomb.  I tend to agree with the plumber just from simple logic, but that's an example of my local resources not knowing what I have and are merely guessing.


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## BoilerBob (Mar 14, 2012)

I have already had a plumber at my house to the tune of $78 an hour â€œtrying to figure out my system.â€


Gilby
I vote for getting Heaterman a plane ticket out there to help you change the near boiler plumbing. Head scratching at $78/hr will pay a plane ticket pretty quick.

  PC


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## jebatty (Mar 14, 2012)

Gilby - your description reads very much like you do not have, or at least not effectively have, boiler return water protection. And I can't believe you have to leave the bottom door open at all, except maybe when you shut the fan down to add wood so that smoke does not roll out the firebox door. And your bypass damper is open at this point. But after loading, I'm sure you shut the top door, shut the bottom door, and start the fan, and maybe still keep the bypass door open to build a fast and good fire and start building some coals.

I keep the bypass door open, fan on, until flue temp reaches about 350-400F, then I shut the bypass damper, and the Tarm almost immediately roars into gasification. And gasification and high burn continues. Assuming of course you have dry wood, absolutely critical, and if you don't, build a campfire outside, huddle together, and use the boiler as a paper weight until you get dry wood. LOL

At this point the boiler water is still cold, or at least below 160F. The boiler continues to heat until it reaches you circ start setpoint, perhaps 160F. And of course at this point you will have cold system water returning to the boiler. That's where the boiler return water protection system kicks in, immediately shutting down the cold return and mixing with hot boiler output to maintain somewhere between maybe a low of 140F return to boiler and perhaps higher into the 150'sF boiler return water. This also then means that boiler output water will likely range between a possible low of +10F to +20F higher than boiler return water after protection, and your boiler should be able to maintain a +20F or more higher output temperature than the temp of return water after protection. All is sweet, because your system/storage is taking all the output the boiler can deliver.

When system return water temp before protection rises to 160F and higher, your boiler during at least mid to high burn should be able to maintain about a +20F output temp over return temp. As return temp reaches about 165-170F and you still have about a +20F output temp, you will run into problems, unless you have someplace to take that output. That's when careful loading comes into play to insure that as temps reach this point, the wood load has burned down, output is falling, and you don't go over the fan shut down set point for your boiler.


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## mr.fixit (Mar 14, 2012)

Gilby,you should hit the start button when  first starting the fire so the fan on the boiler gets the fire going.

The fan should get the fire going good with BOTH doors shut tight. When the temp is up good on the controller (150-160)then close the bypass damper and let the controller control the fan and fire.No way should you operate it with the lower door open.

Do you know what your fan speed settings are?

What about fan shutter openings and primary air settings?

It may be time to get to know a little more about all the settings and what they do.Read the EKO sticky.


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## rkusek (Mar 14, 2012)

I guess my method might not be the only method and I didn't intend to imply that.  If you closed both doors, left the bypass open, and started the fan I guess that would also get the fire going.  I would think the fans would force more air and smoke into the boiler room when you open the door to add wood.  I never load the thing to the top until those those first 3-4 pieces are well charred.  (This a bed of hot coals is what many strive to find when we reload a warm boiler since gassification will be immediate and we can reload and walk away.)  The chimney well be nice and hot at this point providing a good draft.  Open the top door, close the lower door, load it up to the top, close the top door, pull the bypass closed, and hit the start button.  It does look like you do not have boiler protection like others have noted which (ie. Tekmar or Danfoss valve) would protect the boiler from shock by maintaining 140 degree water back into the bottom of the boiler.  This may also explain some of the issues you have getting the boiler up to temp.  Some also use the special circs that slow down or stop when the return water is too cold and speed up when it warms up.  Those cost about the same as a Danfoss so you could probably re-plumb that piping his summer and use that existing boiler circ for something else like a P/S circ or just keep it for a spare.  There are many options to get your system to work like it should and others here are more qualified than me.  Maybe someone has a link handy to some piping designs they can post.  You definitely will want to correct this before next winter and the operation of your boiler will be a dream compared to what you have described to us this year.


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## Gilby (Mar 14, 2012)

I do not have the return temp protection.  I kind of figured that was part of my issue. I know we've talked about it on here.  Not sure where to get one...or where it goes...or how it's installed!  Any pics or destructions I could follow?? 

Truth be told, I don't think I have ever closed the chambers and turned the fans on, but left the damper open (at least not on purpose).  I know I have a thermometer on the bottom of my chimney pipe that is never very warm and is in the "creosote" stage.  Not sure if that matters....other than I do have some build up.  

My wood is decent at best.  I began sawing smaller pieces and I split everything.  That has helped my cause a bunch.


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## stee6043 (Mar 14, 2012)

I've been starting my fires with my lower door wide open since day one.  I personally feel that starting the boiler (pushing start) with both doors closed and the bypass open is much more risky than leaving the lower door open.  I'm much more apt to forget the boiler is in start-up mode if it's all buttoned up, doors closed.

For me the best way to start my EKO is to open the lower door, start the fire from below and leave the lower door open until stack temps hit 400 +/-.  Once I have good stack temps I close the door, close bypass, hit start and walk away.


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## rkusek (Mar 14, 2012)

My temp will drop 10 degrees or so when I close the bypass and start the fan even before the circ starts.  I believe this is because the refractory and the fire tubes are still cool and that temp sensor is located right on top the boiler.  Nevertheless, now the heat is being directed downward through the nozzle, refractory, and fire tubes instead of just the upper chamber and up the chimney through the bypass when the bypass is open.  My install has 700' of 1.5" UG pex between the shed and house that has to heat up and rom the time the boiler hits 165 this may take another 30" at least before the water at my furnace if hot enough for it to do any good.  I have a Johnson Controls A419 aquastat in my basement.  My furnace blower and circ on my water-air HX won't even run until the water temp is at least 110 degrees.  Likewise, it also shuts off the blower and circulator when the boiler runs out of wood and water cools  so that my blower doesn't blow cold air.  I have my actual heat pump tstat set about 3 degrees less (67 vs. 70), so that nothing happens until the house cools down to 67 and then the heat pump takes over.  By the way, I used a relay to isolate the blower from the existing heat pump wiring so it did not interfere with its operation.  If the HP wants to run my wood tstat signals to not operate anything.  If my furnace was peroidically blowing cold air my wife would have me sleeping in the garage with the dog.  Your life will be so much simplier when you get this fixed and working the way it should.  I suck at making up diagrams to post but I will take a stab at it later toinight.


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## rkusek (Mar 14, 2012)

stee6043 said:
			
		

> I've been starting my fires with my lower door wide open since day one.  I personally feel that starting the boiler (pushing start) with both doors closed and the bypass open is much more risky than leaving the lower door open.  I'm much more apt to forget the boiler is in start-up mode if it's all buttoned up, doors closed.
> 
> For me the best way to start my EKO is to open the lower door, start the fire from below and leave the lower door open until stack temps hit 400 +/-.  Once I have good stack temps I close the door, close bypass, hit start and walk away.



Do you just start with a few pieces and then fill to top after it is hot?  It seems like the whole load would start burning if you didn't and some of the fuel would be wasted but I might be all wet on this one.


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## Singed Eyebrows (Mar 14, 2012)

You can get a plumber off Craigslist. If he also sells firewood he can bring your 1/3 cord(full cord ordered) at the same time, lol. Seriously, if you are carefull you can get a real decent deal on a qualified person this way, Randy


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## Gilby (Mar 14, 2012)

> Do you just start with a few pieces and then fill to top after it is hot?  It seems like the whole load would start burning if you didnâ€™t and some of the fuel would be wasted but I might be all wet on this one.



That's something I've wondered about.  I get my fire going...then immediately load it up full.  My simple mind has always thought "bigger fire = faster heat up."  But I'm sure I've wasted quite a bit of wood.  

I started the season (November) with about 11 cords of wood.  I might have two left...and I'm not out of the woods in terms of winter up here.  It's nice now...but that just means we'll get a foot of snow the first week of May.  Granted my learning curve has been steep with this thing, but I think I've gone through way more wood than I should. 

What type of tank should I look at buying for storage?  Any suggestions?  I want something minimal - just in terms of space in my garage.  100 gallons?


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## taxidermist (Mar 14, 2012)

[quote author="Gilby" date="1331757570"]I do not have the return temp protection.  I kind of figured that was part of my issue. I know we've talked about it on here.  Not sure where to get one...or where it goes...or how it's installed!  Any pics or destructions I could follow?? 

 I will try this again.......look at my pics in my blog if you want to see a way to plumb it proper. Your return protection is only one of many problems with your system.....as for your plumber buddy and the OWB guy ........RUN!


Rob


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## rkusek (Mar 14, 2012)

If you have enough load (ie. big house, cold climate) you might not need storage.  Anything less than 500 gals will probably not give much benefit vs. the time/cost involved.  Two 500 gal tank mounted upright like Huffdawg's would be very nice in your garage if they would fit.  Mine are setting on the floor not even hooked up because after seeing everyone neatly stacked one on top of the other or two mounted vertical like Huffdawg's I decided to wait until this summer to do the same.  I loaded mine 2-3 times a day this winter depending on the temp and if the temps were going to stay above 25 degrees overnight, I just let the heat pump run.  It would have idled much more and probably wasted wood.  When the temp was 25 or below overnight running w/o storage worked pretty well.  If your wife likes the house temp to stay consistent the storage will help in that regard as well as giving you more flexibility with your fire tending.


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## woodsmaster (Mar 14, 2012)

As for storage more is better to an extent, but if you only have room for 100 gallon I think that would be better than none.


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## mr.fixit (Mar 14, 2012)

Looking at the pictures in the old post it does look like you have a danfoss valve. It faces the wall so it is hard to make out. It also looks like the bypass shutoff valve just above the danfoss is almost completely closed,it may have to be opened more with no storage.

But the way the zone pumps and plumbing is run,whats to prevent the pumps from recirculating their own return water?

Should there be a shut off valve in the piping after the pumps where the pipe takes a downward turn on the RH side in the pictures?


Huskers,I wasn't taking issue with what you said,I just wanted to stress to Gilby to not run it with the bottom door open for an extended period of time.


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## Gilby (Mar 14, 2012)

> Looking at the pictures in the old post it does look like you have a danfoss valve. It faces the wall so it is hard to make out. It also looks like the bypass shutoff valve just above the danfoss is almost completely closed,it may have to be opened more with no storage.
> 
> But the way the zone pumps and plumbing is run,whats to prevent the pumps from recirculating their own return water?
> 
> Should there be a shut off valve in the piping after the pumps where the pipe takes a downward turn on the RH side in the pictures?



Not sure about all that.....

Like I stated in a couple of my previous posts, in order for the water to circulate evenly to those pumps, I had to choke the valves on that first pump way down.  I even have that pump on low.  The othert pump is on high with both valves completely open.  If I open all the valves completely on both pumps - even if I turn the first pump to low and the second to high - the first pump hogs all the water and the second one doesn't get much.  I've found they way I have it to be the best way to heat both sides of my house.

I took a bunch of pics...I'll get them put together this afternoon hopefully before I head out.


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## jebatty (Mar 14, 2012)

> If I open all the valves completely on both pumps - even if I turn the first pump to low and the second to high - the first pump hogs all the water and the second one doesnâ€™t get much.



I looked at your other post, and at least part of what you are experiencing some call zone starvation, where one or more zones hog all the heat and one or more other zones aren't getting any. I think this relates to a variety of factors, including 1) insufficient boiler output, 2) failure to balance the zones, 3) insufficient flow through the boiler even if it has sufficient capacity to provide needed output, 4) improper sizing of pipes and or circulator(s) to obtain required flow, and 5) probably more.

As others have said, you would greatly benefit from experienced hot water hvac installers, which you say you do not have. While this isn't brain surgery, what you are doing is like operating on the brain by looking at a couple of pictures - that won't cut it. It doesn't mean that after trial and error and spending lots of money, much of which may be wasted, you will obtain a satisfactory result, but in the meantime I hope what you do doesn't hurt or injure anyone, and it looks like you were a hair width away from doing exactly that.


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## mikefrommaine (Mar 14, 2012)

Here is what I would do.
Simple 9 step plan to wood heating nirvana!

1 - Stop using as is

2 - Call your building inspector and ask if this a permitted installation. If not have it inspected. You will probably be given a red tag and told to stop using it. Not having a pipe to the ground from your relief valve is 'plumbing 101' and is a major safety issue. Imagine if you had been  next to it when it relieved the pressure.

3-  Buy a pipe wrench and cutter. 

4- take apart all the piping, parts, valves and clean for reuse

5- Find a good diagram that fits your situation. Tarm has very detailed schematics available.

6 - Compare the schematic and order any necessary parts that you were not able to salvage.

7a - buy some loctite 55 and assemble -OR-
7b - hire a plumber, show them the schematic and tell them to assemble. Level, plumb and leak free. You don't an ORLAN specialist, just someone that can read and thread/solder pipes.

8-  Get it inspected  and permitted.

9- Hire a lawyer to send a letter requesting to be reimbursed for all your expenses and have it sent via certified mail to the former owner/idiot who sold you this mess. Not likely to get paid but I would do it just because.

You probably have most of the necessary components. Your biggest cost will be labor unless you want to do it all yourself. Plenty of people here willing to answer your questions if you decide to diy.


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## huffdawg (Mar 15, 2012)

From the EKO manual

When starting the boiler from a cold start, the following steps should be followed in sequence:
1.  Switch off the controller power.
2. Push the bypass damper lever forward to open the burning chamber bypass.
3. Put paper, very dry kindling and a few larger pieces of dry wood into the burning chamber.
4. Start the ï¬re.
5. Open the bottom combustion chamber door to provide a natural draft.
6. Let the ï¬re burn for 10-15 minutes (WARNING!! NEVER leave the boiler unattended in this state.  
7. Add more wood.
8. Wait another 15 to 20 minutes for a charcoal layer to accumulate.
9. Close both upper and lower doors.
10. Pull the bypass damper closed (toward you) and switch on the controller power.
11. Ensure that gasiï¬cation is occurring;*
12. Repeat steps 1 and 2.
13. Fill up the entire upper combustion chamber with wood.
14. Repeat steps 9 and 10


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## woodsmaster (Mar 15, 2012)

I realize now the biomass is a designed differently and what works for me is likely not what works best for the EKO.


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## BoilerBob (Mar 20, 2012)

Hi Gilby
Are you making any progress? I was able to zoom in on your pics and see where the circs, pumps to zones downwards. Might be way off on this but, some circs have a check valve that could stop air from going to the high point of the system. The air could be stuck in your circ???  Turning but not pumping.

  PC


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## heaterman (Mar 20, 2012)

Getting back to the original problem of the pump shutting down..........if I am hearing you correctly, your circulator shuts off when the boiler temp gets to high? According to the EKO manual, the boiler pump circuit should energize no matter what when the water temp hits 200 or better. Check to see if someone has installed another aquastat in that circuit somewhere that may be wired incorrectly and is opening rather than closing the contacts during a high heat situation.

RE; your relief valve spewing all over.
It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Dumping excess pressure is its goal in life. The fact that the discharge is pointed in the wrong direction can be easily corrected. A relief valve should always be installed so the valve stem is vertical and the discharge terminated within 6" of the floor.


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## bigbobs (Mar 21, 2012)

^ I was going to post the same thought as Heaterman the other day but couldn't since the software was being changed. Could the wrong type of aquastat been installed, one that turns off once it reaches a setpoint?


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