# Got Propane?



## BoiledOver (Jan 20, 2014)

See the graph at this website: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W

Notice that in January of 2000 price for a gallon was $0.95, January of 2014 $2.57. Too bad income levels haven't had such an increase over the same time.

Big smile goin on here though. I use 10 gallons per month for cooking, dhw and clothes drying. Zero on heating so far this season. 8,000 pounds at 17% mc to date..


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## phantomblack (Jan 20, 2014)

Agreed. Here in the Midwest propane spiked to a high of 3.19 due to a shortage stemming from heavy use drying grain. I have used zero propane to heat the house for the past 4 years. 

Seeing these prices has made me wonder why some folks size their systems to cover them on 90% of heating days. Why not size for 100 percent and give up some minor efficency loss and avoid having to pay the oil/gas man. Maybe I'm cut from a different thread, but I'd be sick if I had to burn propane to keep up in the coldest days.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jan 20, 2014)

Do you have an old electric bill from 2000? I found one, said I averaged 400kw a month. Now it says 1100kw. No changes to anything except newer appliances and the twisty light bulbs. Go figure, magical usage.


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## huffdawg (Jan 20, 2014)

I figure I have paid for my Eko 40 and both of my dhw tanks in two years.    I bought a  high efficiency buderus modcon. boiler 5 yrs ago.   the price of propane has gone from 45L to 95L .
I took it off line 3yrs ago..   What a waste of money that thing was ,I guess I paid for it the 1st year of running my eko.

Huff


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## BoilerMan (Jan 20, 2014)

You should look up #2 heating oil, even more depressing.

TS


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## SmokeEater (Jan 20, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> You should look up #2 heating oil, even more depressing.
> 
> TS


Propane at $3.19 a gallon is 1.26 times more expensive than fuel oil at $3.80 a gallon if one doesn't take into account the efficiency of either boiler/furnace/stove.


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## MarkW (Jan 21, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> Do you have an old electric bill from 2000? I found one, said I averaged 400kw a month. Now it says 1100kw. No changes to anything except newer appliances and the twisty light bulbs. Go figure, magical usage.


Not so much magical usage as the fact that everything in ones house stays on, albeit in lower power mode.  I cringe walking through the house when dark at all the glowing appliances and nicknacks, including the plethora of wall warts doing their dirty work on my meter.


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## Fred61 (Jan 21, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Not so much magical usage as the fact that everything in ones house stays on, albeit in lower power mode.  I cringe walking through the house when dark at all the glowing appliances and nicknacks, including the plethora of wall warts doing their dirty work on my meter.


And the single one that had the biggest effect was the DVR. It's like adding another refrigerator. You're right, I don't need to turn on any lights to walk through my house in the middle of the night.


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## MarkW (Jan 21, 2014)

Yep, it's disgusting!

I got my last propane fill in Nov at $2.29.  I used to use it for sholder season heat because I was running a wood furnace.  I haven't used propane for primary heat since 2002.  With my storage, I don't intend to heat with it at all.  Just running my dryer and cooking.  Drying clothes off storage doesn't seem too practical.  But don't think I haven't thought about it.


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## huffdawg (Jan 21, 2014)

Fred61 said:


> And the single one that had the biggest effect was the DVR. It's like adding another refrigerator. You're right, I don't need to turn on any lights to walk through my house in the middle of the night.


Me neither,but I do use a light when  taking a  piss though..the sound method gets me in  trouble with the old lady.


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## henfruit (Jan 21, 2014)

That waters cold and deep!


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## NCFord (Jan 21, 2014)

I just paid $4.09 per gallon last week, though it was for only 100 gallons and that will last us about 1.5 years.  I am sure glad I don't have to
heat with the stuff.


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## MarkW (Jan 21, 2014)

NCFord said:


> I just paid $4.09 per gallon last week



My last purchase at $2.29 was 183 gallons.  You was robbed!


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## AK13 (Jan 21, 2014)

We only use propane for DHW heater and for cooking. And they raised my price from $3.69 to $4.04 in December and then to $4.14 for my last delivery. They told me there is a nationwide shortage, but really they are probably just raising prices because everyone is all hyped over the polar vortex. I am getting robbed!

The propane mafia would give me a better price if I heated with it. But I heat with wood and I use an oil-fired furnace for morning warm-ups and when we're away as needed (still nursing a single tank since fall of 2011)! At least heating oil pricing is up front and fixed. Propane pricing is a black art.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 21, 2014)

AK13 said:


> We only use propane for DHW heater and for cooking. And they raised my price from $3.69 to $4.04 in December and then to $4.14 for my last delivery. They told me there is a nationwide shortage, but really they are probably just raising prices because everyone is all hyped over the polar vortex. I am getting robbed!
> 
> The propane mafia would give me a better price if I heated with it. But I heat with wood and I use an oil-fired furnace for morning warm-ups and when we're away as needed (still nursing a single tank since fall of 2011)! At least heating oil pricing is up front and fixed. Propane pricing is a black art.


 Either go all LPG or none (other than cook-top....gas is soooo much better to cook on)  Get rid of the oil and get a PVC vented condensing furnace. 

Electric water heater is MUCH cheaper to run than $4/gal propane.

TS


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## billb3 (Jan 21, 2014)

My sister got 76 gallons of propane last week and it was $4.90 a gallon.
I still think that's insane and highway robbery.
Her heat ( besides wood) is a warm start boiler which has to run all Summer.
Plus the water to the water heater runs through the oil furnace first.
Really strange set-up.


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## jrod770 (Jan 21, 2014)

wow, I thought my fill up last month at $1.99 was bad.....


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## jebatty (Jan 22, 2014)

Just one more reason to love wood. Propane is a commodity that goes where the money is. No need to grin, just bear it. 

A few years ago I mused over what a person could do to insulate from high energy prices, and then I thought it would be good to invest in an energy source. Dummy me. I was sitting on lots of land and trees and it took a brain *art to discover I was sitting on an energy goldmine: sustainable, renewable, carbon neutral, endless source of energy. Very little to do but let nature and the sun do the work it has done well for thousands of years.


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## Gasifier (Jan 22, 2014)

I am still sitting on 1/4 tank of oil now from I don't remember when. The oil boiler turns on very seldom. I am fortunate to have a lot of trees to be able to cut. I use to buy about half of my wood, but am trying to get to the point where I cut every bit of it. I have most of next years supply blocked and piled. I will have the rest cut by spring. Then I will have a lot of splitting and stacking to do! Those propane and oil prices are bad. Bad. I wonder if there will be an investigation into why the price can be jacked up when a really bad cold period hits. What do they call that when a hurricane or other bad storm hits and area and places jack their prices up on plywood and the like? Gauging?


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## MarkW (Jan 22, 2014)

Gouging. I'm not sure I support the price regulation during those emergencies.  I get that it seems wrong on the surface but it's supply and demand.  Don't buy plywood as a hurricane approaches or your propane as the temps plummet and you won't get screwed.  Or if possible, don't buy propane/fuel oil at all. 
When I bought my house, I got off electricity because propane was so much cheaper.  Oh how the times have changed!


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## KenLockett (Jan 22, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> You should look up #2 heating oil, even more depressing.
> 
> TS



Even more depressing than simply looking up the cost is that this winter supply of wood will be gone this week and I have to make the hard decision whether to call the oil man out, tap into next years wood supply currently seasoning (since May) and try to encourage additional drying in the basement, or try to find seasoned firewood for sale this time of year (which is appearing more difficult than I thought).  My usual supplier from past years (a renewables plant that sales packaged firewood for camping) informed me on Monday that their usual price of $240 per cord had increase to $385 per cord.  On principle I told then good luck and no thanks.  With that said still cheaper than fuel oil I suppose but I tend to be very stubborn.  May take off Friday to head off into my woods to try processing some dead standing or dead fall that may already be dry.


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## MarkW (Jan 22, 2014)

That's not good. I'm going through it fast, as well. I was able to vet an additional 2 cord to see me through at $130/cord.


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## mr.fixit (Jan 22, 2014)

This thread is why I always liked member Eric Johnson's signature line
"I like a source of fuel where the price,supply and quality is controlled by one guy; me "


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## AK13 (Jan 22, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> Either go all LPG or none (other than cook-top....gas is soooo much better to cook on) Get rid of the oil and get a PVC vented condensing furnace. Electric water heater is MUCH cheaper to run than $4/gal propane.



You are right that electric is cheaper. I'd say 10% cheaper if electricity is $0.15/kwh and my propane DHW heater is 80% efficient. We like that the propane runs without power during outages, but that's about it. We'd probably keep the gas for cooking.  

The problem with going all LPG and swapping out the furnace is that we hardly use the furnace. So the propane company would get excited when we switched and cut us a break on price, but then they'd see very little increase in usage (because I heat with wood) and jack our price back up again.

I think that the long term answer for me is to go all electric with a HPWH (soon I hope) and someday way down the road a ducted heat pump for the house. Since I mostly heat with wood the furnace is a much smaller concern.


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## maple1 (Jan 22, 2014)

Our 80 gallon electric hot water heater costs about $30/month, at $0.17/kwh.

Family of five.

What would a 'typical' propane DHW bill be for a month? There's also the chimney out of it that must be causing SOME standby losses?


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## sloeffle (Jan 22, 2014)

We were a "low use" propane customer when we were renting our propane tank. After haggling with the propane company for awhile over the charges we ended up buying our tank. That was one of the smarter moves I made. It allowed me to shop around for propane and not have a bill show up at my door for a propane fill up that I did not need. I also ended up selling the tank for more than what I bought it for. We are all electric now.


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## AK13 (Jan 22, 2014)

sloeffle said:


> We were a "low use" propane customer when we were renting our propane tank. After haggling with the propane company for awhile over the charges we ended up buying our tank.



I've been thinking about doing this for a long time. Did the propane company sell you the tank?

I think that I'm going to pursue this further.


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## Gasifier (Jan 22, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Gouging. I'm not sure I support the price regulation during those emergencies.  I get that it seems wrong on the surface but it's supply and demand.  Don't buy plywood as a hurricane approaches or your propane as the temps plummet and you won't get screwed.  Or if possible, don't buy propane/fuel oil at all.
> When I bought my house, I got off electricity because propane was so much cheaper.  Oh how the times have changed!


 
Supply and demand is not the problem. It is when an emergency like a disaster hits and they jack the price way up because they know the people have no choice. They have to have it. Ain't right.

Suppose you have one place to go buy something you have to have. You have no time to plan. Your truck broke down and you need one to make money. No ifs ands or buts about it. You truck is broke beyond repair and the dealer knows it. Yesterday the price of the truck you need was $30,000. Now that you need it and can't do without it the price of the truck is $35,000. What would you think?


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## MarkW (Jan 22, 2014)

It is the epitome of supply and demand.  I have a need and the vendor has the product.  I will pay the price or go without.  I won't like it but it believe it is equitable. As a vendor, why should I not be able to sell that which I own for the price I choose because someone else doesn't like my price?


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## Gasifier (Jan 22, 2014)

MarkW said:


> It is the epitome of supply and demand.  I have a need and the vendor has the product.  I will pay the price or go without.  I won't like it but it believe it is equitable. As a vendor, why should I not be able to sell that which I own for the price I choose because someone else doesn't like my price?


 
Yup. Okay. Now all bets are off. There is no regulation. Now when you go to the shopping center and they have doubled all the prices since yesterday, no tripled them. They can choose the price. Right?  And you can't afford to feed the family........... Then the gasoline vendors double the price, because they can, of the gasoline and you can't afford to pay that......... Then the guys selling you the electricity says, hey if they can do it, then I will too. Now the price of the electricity is twice what it was. The epitome of supply and demand right. When you and your kids are getting hungry, you have to buy the gas to get to your job to make money, the lights are now off.............. when does it end? When do you say, "Hey, this is not right." ? Wait a minute!


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## MarkW (Jan 22, 2014)

Gasifier said:


> when does it end?


 When another vendor hoping to steal customers away drops the prices or no one can afford the high prices and the offending vendor must lower prices to get business  Happens all the time.


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## Gasifier (Jan 22, 2014)

MarkW said:


> When another vendor hoping to steal customers away drops the prices or no one can afford the high prices and the offending vendor must lower prices to get business  Happens all the time.


 
Unless there is only one vendor. Should they be able to do whatever they want? Now it gets into politics, greed, etc. And I will get out of the conversation. Thanks for it though. Stay warm.


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## Fred61 (Jan 22, 2014)

Free enterprise except for the electricity which is regulated by the public service board because there is no competition. When you're in business there is always someone who thinks they can sell more widgets at a lower price than you can. Sometimes they put you out of business along with themselves.


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## Gasifier (Jan 22, 2014)

I like free enterprise. I also like to eat. Drive my truck. Etc. There is a fine line if things start becoming a monopoly. That is why there are times regulation is needed.


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## MarkW (Jan 22, 2014)

I agree regarding monopolies.  To be avoided at amost all costs.
Thanks for the conversationn.  I also agree that we've derailed the OP topic enough.


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## Enzo's Dad (Jan 22, 2014)

Some times I ask myself why i live in CT, we are near the highest in the nation for gas, home heating oil, and electricity. Our electric bill is over $150 no matter what, and this is with energy saver bulbs and appliances. I read on a thread here that somone paid $30 a month for electricity? thats not even a week for me! The last chart is interesting because Diesel and home heating oil are basically the same. In the northeast the will always keep diesel higher than home heating oil, strange thing diesel costs less to produce than gas.

For New Englanders  try this I pick up Diesel in MA for 3.99 a gallon, but when i use stop and shop points at a shell I am getting it for 3.49 a gallon. I get 15 gallons per trip and use it for my domestic hot water.the Average price of home heating oil is 3.89 a gallon.


http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPD2F_PRS_SCT_DPG&f=W

http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/


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## MarkW (Jan 22, 2014)

Yeah, diesel is terrible.  They got it to $4/gallon and don't seem to waver much no matter what the price of oil goes to.

I'm happy I don't have you electric bill, either.  I average $65 most months except when A/C and pool are going at the same time.  Still don't go over $100, then.


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## sloeffle (Jan 22, 2014)

AK13 said:


> I've been thinking about doing this for a long time. Did the propane company sell you the tank?
> 
> I think that I'm going to pursue this further.



Yes, we bought the tank that was on our property. We paid 1$ a gallon for it. Just make sure that you get the paper work from the company you are buying it from. The paper work should state that you are the owner of xyz serial number propane tank and not renting it. The propane delivery person will check it before they put any propane in your tank.

Scott


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## chken (Jan 22, 2014)

BoiledOver said:


> See the graph at this website: http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W
> 
> Notice that in January of 2000 price for a gallon was $0.95, January of 2014 $2.57. Too bad income levels haven't had such an increase over the same time.


Just looked. If you start from when the data actually starts, way back around January of 1991, when it was $1.00, that's 23 years to get to $2.53. 

While it seems like the price may have changed a lot since then, that's only a 1.87% annual increase, essentially the rate of inflation.


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## MarkW (Jan 22, 2014)

sloeffle said:


> Yes, we bought the tank that was on our property. We paid 1$ a gallon for it. Just make sure that you get the paper work from the company you are buying it from. The paper work should state that you are the owner of xyz serial number propane tank and not renting it. The propane delivery person will check it before they put any propane in your tank.


 Do you ever have to have it recertified?  That's my only hesitation as I have to pay for recertification on some other gas cyliners I own.


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## sloeffle (Jan 22, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Do you ever have to have it recertified?  That's my only hesitation as I have to pay for recertification on some other gas cyliners I own.


The tank was certified a few years before we bought it. It had a tag from Ferrelgas showing it was certified. The tank we bought was actually from 1973 or 1975 if I remember correctly. 

I am not sure how or who would re-certify a owner owned tank if needed to be done.

Scott


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## arbutus (Jan 22, 2014)

MarkW said:


> Do you ever have to have it recertified?  That's my only hesitation as I have to pay for recertification on some other gas cyliners I own.


 ASME tanks do not have to be recertified as long as it remains in good condition and the nameplate is legible.
DOT tanks must be recertified every ?12? years.


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## arbutus (Jan 22, 2014)

maple1 said:


> Our 80 gallon electric hot water heater costs about $30/month, at $0.17/kwh.
> 
> Family of five.
> 
> What would a 'typical' propane DHW bill be for a month? There's also the chimney out of it that must be causing SOME standby losses?


 
So 176 kwh or 597125 btu per month at near 100% efficiency.  (Best case, not including standby loss)
1085681 btu input at 55% efficiency with a conventional gas water heater.  Probably includes standby loss
746406 btu input at 80% with a powervent gas water heater.  Probably includes standby loss
About 91500 btu per gallon of propane, so about 11.9 and 8.15 gallons, equivalent use, respectively.
Multiply by your local propane cost per gallon.

This ignores the life and cost of the water heater, you can buy two inexpensive electric water heaters for the same price as a gas water heater.


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2014)

Typical propane prices go out the window when there is a shortage. This can happen in a cold snap like we're seeing now or if a refinery shuts down as happened several years back. We were up to almost $4.00/gal for a while there. Some parts of the country are seeing this now.


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## BoilerMan (Jan 22, 2014)

begreen said:


> Typical propane prices go out the window when there is a shortage. This can happen in a cold snap like we're seeing now or if a refinery shuts down as happened several years back. We were up to almost $4.00/gal for a while there. Some parts of the country are seeing this now.


 This is why you have enough tank (be it LPG or oil) to ride out the winter.  I think that is one of the huge benefits with wood. 

Say you burn 800 gals of oil/winter, well if you had a 1,000 gal tank and bought in the summer you could ride out the winter.  Getting the $$$$$ to make all of this happen, and be able to financially fill the thing all at once, would get you a better price..... I guess if the whole country thought like this we wouldn't have credit cards, debt......

TS


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## begreen (Jan 22, 2014)

If you can stock up that is a good idea. In our case the price hike lasted several years until the refinery came back on line and natural gas dropped in price. We did better and got rid of the propane furnace. Replaced it with a very high efficiency heat pump and a honking big stove. Now we fill up the propane tank for the kitchen cooktop only. It gets filled once every 5 yrs.


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## jebatty (Jan 23, 2014)

> Yup. Okay. Now all bets are off. There is no regulation. Now when you go to the shopping center and they have doubled all the prices since yesterday, no tripled them. They can choose the price. Right? And you can't afford to feed the family........... Then the gasoline vendors double the price, because they can, of the gasoline and you can't afford to pay that......... Then the guys selling you the electricity says, hey if they can do it, then I will too. Now the price of the electricity is twice what it was. The epitome of supply and demand right. When you and your kids are getting hungry, you have to buy the gas to get to your job to make money, the lights are now off.............. when does it end? When do you say, "Hey, this is not right." ? Wait a minute!


This scenario is what poor families face every day just to live. And to understand that, try to live on $20,000/year for a single parent plus a small child needing daycare. Can't be done without public or other outside assistance. Just having enough money to buy gas for the car to get to and from work 20 miles away is a daily struggle. 

I know this only too well because my wife and I are "outside assistance" to a young lady with a small child, who has a full time job paying more than the minimum wage, and who struggles every month just to live. She does everything right and still can't live without help for daycare, food, heating, and health care.

Sorry to further derail this, but the cries of the poor result in budget cuts on federal and state levels, while the cries of the not-poor about the price of propane make the headlines. I feel the hurt of all those whose are facing heating budgets out of control due to the price of propane, but I cry with the poor who live in this circumstance every day of their lives.


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## sloeffle (Jan 23, 2014)

arbutus said:


> This ignores the life and cost of the water heater, you can buy two inexpensive electric water heaters for the same price as a gas water heater.


Or buy a Marathon and be done with it.


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## BoiledOver (Jan 23, 2014)

chken said:


> Just looked. If you start from when the data actually starts, way back around January of 1991, when it was $1.00, that's 23 years to get to $2.53.
> 
> While it seems like the price may have changed a lot since then, that's only a 1.87% annual increase, essentially the rate of inflation.


 
That is some interesting math there.

This is the math I know. At 1.87% per year increase will equate to a net increase of 53% over 23 years. $1.00 plus $0.53 equals $1.53. Not $2.53.

Taking the $0.95 price of January, 2000 plus the 171% increase that actually occurred: 0.95 x 1.71 = 1.62 . . 1.62 + 0.95 = 2.57. So the price I mentioned in the OP had a 171% increase over 14 years.


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## chken (Jan 23, 2014)

BoiledOver said:


> That is some interesting math there.
> 
> This is the math I know. At 1.87% per year increase will equate to a net increase of 53% over 23 years. $1.00 plus $0.53 equals $1.53. Not $2.53.
> 
> Taking the $0.95 price of January, 2000 plus the 171% increase that actually occurred: 0.95 x 1.71 = 1.62 . . 1.62 + 0.95 = 2.57. So the price I mentioned in the OP had a 171% increase over 14 years.


Darn, I always forget to remove that "1", when I use the exponential function. So, redoing the math, going from $1.00 to $2.53 in 23 years gives me 4.1%. 

Or looking at your shorter period, of 14 years and 1 week, I get 7.3% annual increases. Of course, the 9 year period before that had 0.6% increases.

The point being wherever you take your starting point will have a huge effect upon your result, and looking at a 4.1% annual increase over the last 23 years doesn't seem nearly as intimidating as 171% over 14 years.


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## BoiledOver (Jan 23, 2014)

chken said:


> Darn, I always forget to remove that "1", when I use the exponential function. So, redoing the math, going from $1.00 to $2.53 in 23 years gives me 4.1%.
> 
> Or looking at your shorter period, of 14 years and 1 week, I get 7.3% annual increases. Of course, the 9 year period before that had 0.6% increases.
> 
> The point being wherever you take your starting point will have a huge effect upon your result, and looking at a 4.1% annual increase over the last 23 years doesn't seem nearly as intimidating as 171% over 14 years.


 
Yeah, I see where you are coming from. I ignored the first 9 years due to it being flatline except for the 1 spike. Thanks for your input.


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## JTWALL (Jan 24, 2014)

I see on the news propane jumped $.90 in one day!  Makes my woodpile look wonderful! Eko Model 25 (5th winter) keeps chugging along!  Keep warm.


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## BoiledOver (Jan 24, 2014)

JTWALL said:


> I see on the news propane jumped $.90 in one day!  Makes my woodpile look wonderful! Eko Model 25 (5th winter) keeps chugging along!  Keep warm.


Glad to hear of your happy chugging. I too am warm and happy with the EKO25. Got plenty of wood c/s/s and just recieved a drop today of 10 pulp cords which cost exactly the same price as last year.

This article tells of the propane price surge and stockpile numbers.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/23/energy-propane-prices-idUSL2N0KX1FG20140123


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

The propane price will come down again, this shortage is short lived. IMO a electric dwh will cost more than propane unless your on a off peak program and you have a Marathon water heater. The math can be done by your utility provider or yourself.


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## maple1 (Jan 24, 2014)

hermancm said:


> The propane price will come down again, this shortage is short lived. IMO a electric dwh will cost more than propane unless your on a off peak program and you have a Marathon water heater. The math can be done by your utility provider or yourself.


 

If so I don't think it can be by much. Our 80 gallon electric runs about $30/mo @ $0.17/kwh, family of 5.

Propane may likely come down - but pretty sure it won't stay down.


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## moey (Jan 24, 2014)

hermancm said:


> The propane price will come down again, this shortage is short lived. IMO a electric dwh will cost more than propane unless your on a off peak program and you have a Marathon water heater. The math can be done by your utility provider or yourself.



Gas fired hot water tanks are inefficient. Just look at the ratings on them. Its very generous the ratings do not include the standby loss from the stack from it sitting all day. A electric tank is near 100% efficient and does not have a stack loss.


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## AK13 (Jan 24, 2014)

hermancm said:


> The propane price will come down again, this shortage is short lived. IMO a electric dwh will cost more than propane unless your on a off peak program and you have a Marathon water heater. The math can be done by your utility provider or yourself.



It really depends on what you pay and propane pricing is all over the map. If you heat with propane then you probably get a good enough price to make DHW heating cheaper than electric. If you mainly just use i for DHW like me then your propane company is probably hosing you with a stupidly high price. 

Of course it depends on what you pay for electric also. In NE we pay top dollar for electricity and its still cheaper than what I am paying for propane right now. 

By the way, I'm suspicious of ALL utility provided math


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## AndrewChurchill (Jan 24, 2014)

moey said:


> Gas fired hot water tanks are inefficient. Just look at the ratings on them. Its very generous the ratings do not include the standby loss from the stack from it sitting all day. A electric tank is near 100% efficient and does not have a stack loss.


It also doesn't have good recovery.  Once you've used the all the hot water you have to wait for awhile before you have hot water again.  I use my boiler to heat my 53 gallon hot water tank and it can put out over 300 gallons of hot water an hour.  Let's see an electric or gas fired tank do that!


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## moey (Jan 24, 2014)

AndrewChurchill said:


> It also doesn't have good recovery.  Once you've used the all the hot water you have to wait for awhile before you have hot water again.  I use my boiler to heat my 53 gallon hot water tank and it can put out over 300 gallons of hot water an hour.  Let's see an electric or gas fired tank do that!



Yes recovery sucks. But a 80 gallon tank cost the same to operate as a 40 gallon tank. If 80 isnt enough then well I dont know 

If your boiling is firing to just make hot water its really really inefficient kind of like driving a semi to the grocery store rather then a regular car.


----------



## AndrewChurchill (Jan 24, 2014)

moey said:


> Yes recovery sucks. But a 80 gallon tank cost the same to operate as a 40 gallon tank. If 80 isnt enough then well I dont know
> 
> If your boiling is firing to just make hot water its really really inefficient kind of like driving a semi to the grocery store rather then a regular car.



I'm providing DHW for my house as well as an apartment so in my case recovery is important and the Buderus tank (according to the marketing department....) only loses 1/4 degree per hour so my standby losses are negligible.


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## moey (Jan 24, 2014)

AndrewChurchill said:


> I'm providing DHW for my house as well as an apartment so in my case recovery is important and the Buderus tank (according to the marketing department....) only loses 1/4 degree per hour so my standby losses are negligible.



Indirects are good in terms of efficiency they dont have the losses that a standalone fired unit has. As long as they are hooked up to a decent boiler.


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## AndrewChurchill (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm hooked up to a Buderus 215 4 section boiler.  With the pellet burner I'm about 83% efficient.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

moey said:


> Gas fired hot water tanks are inefficient. Just look at the ratings on them. Its very generous the ratings do not include the standby loss from the stack from it sitting all day. A electric tank is near 100% efficient and does not have a stack loss.


*Cost and Lifespan*
While traditional gas and electric storage units are similar in initial purchase price, electricity costs more to use than gas, that means over time, electric units are more expensive to operate. Installation of an electric water heater can be made more expensive by the requirement for a 220 volt outlet, and the wiring for this in an electrical panel. Electric water heaters may have a slightly longer lifespan than gas units, but this largely depends on local water quality and owner maintenance.

For consumers, gas is almost always a cheaper option than electricity, and this simple fact has been enough for many homeowners to choose gas water heaters. If a gas line is already available in a house, it is a much cheaper option. Switching over from electric to gas can be expensive, because it may require installation of a gas line and venting for exhaust heat. Gas heaters can have a slightly shorter lifespan, but the difference is not significant (12 instead of 13 years, for example).


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

moey said:


> Gas fired hot water tanks are inefficient. Just look at the ratings on them. Its very generous the ratings do not include the standby loss from the stack from it sitting all day. A electric tank is near 100% efficient and does not have a stack loss.



*Some won't like my copy and paste but this is what I'm finding. This is from Michaelbluejay.com*
*Gas vs. Electric*
Gas is almost always cheaper than electric, whether tank or tankless.  The energy cost is typically about $30/mo. vs. $42/mo. for a gas vs. electric tank. (EPA PDF)  Electric tanks do offer some advantages over gas tanks, though:

Electric heaters are *cheaper*, because they're less complicated.
They're *easier to install* -- no gas pipes required, no venting required.
They're *safer* (no fuel to leak or explode, no pilot light to go out leaking gas into home, no combustion byproducts).
Electric tanks are actually more_ efficient_ than gas tanks, because gas tanks constantly lose heat through the venting flue (about 6°F per hour [source]  However, electric heaters cost more to run despite their efficiency, because electricity is usually more expensive than gas.

The table below shows the energy factors (a measure of efficiency) for various kinds of heaters.  But remember, ironically, the less-efficient gas tanks are generally cheaper to run than the more-efficient electric tanks.

Electric _tankless_ units cost as much or more to run as gas _tanks_.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

AndrewChurchill said:


> It also doesn't have good recovery.  Once you've used the all the hot water you have to wait for awhile before you have hot water again.  I use my boiler to heat my 53 gallon hot water tank and it can put out over 300 gallons of hot water an hour.  Let's see an electric or gas fired tank do that!


A boiler system can have a clear advantage with its btu output and large exchangers. I'd say most households don't have a system like yours. 

Here is a Georgia study.

The water heater systems test was conducted under the engineering direction of Exelon Services Federal Group (ESFG). A series of tests were conducted using a Rheem natural gas water heater (model # 21V40-38), a Rheem electric water heater (model # 81V40D), and Rinnai Continuum Tankless water heater (natural gas). For all three water heating systems, the supply water temperature and pressure were identical. All three systems were installed in the same conditioned space and flow meters were used to ensure testing was performed under the same flow conditions.

Test #1 , between the traditional electric and gas tank water heaters, showed natural gas water heating operating costs to be 35% less than the electric water heating system operating costs. The Rinnai Continuum Tankless water heating system costs 55% less to operate than the electric tank system and 31% less to operate than the natural gas tank system. This was based on typical usage of an average four-person household.

Test #2 measured delivery (how much hot water can you get from the tank before you run out). The natural gas tank delivered 36% more hot water than the electric unit. That’s an extra 33.2 gallons of hot water for bathing, washing clothes and dishes.

Test #3 measured recovery (how much time does it take for the water heater to heat the incoming water to the desired temperature). The natural gas tank recovered 64% faster than the electric tank.

This was a comparison of natural gas I know. And methane is cheap right now. Fuels go up and down in price. Like I said I think LP will come down in cost in time.


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## moey (Jan 24, 2014)

Interesting heres a couple items from that document with more relative numbers. Using $3 a gallon for propane and .14 kw/hr for electric. These would be yearly operating costs.

$861 propane ( 261 therms * 1.1 ( normalize propane is sold by gallon)  * 3 per gallon of propane )
$680 electric .14 kw/hr ( 4857 kw/yr * .14 )

Natural gas should always be cheaper I would hope at least its where a lot of your electricity comes from.


----------



## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

moey said:


> Interesting heres a couple items from that document with more relative numbers. Using $3 a gallon for propane and .14 kw/hr for electric. These would be yearly operating costs.
> 
> $861 propane ( 261 therms * 1.1 ( normalize propane is sold by gallon)  * 3 per gallon of propane )
> $680 electric .14 kw/hr ( 4857 kw/yr * .14 )
> ...


This winter electric wins. I wander how the past 10 years cost comparison would show? It's all In what you prefer I guess. My 1800 sq ft house only uses 300Kw per month avg. with central air but it's just myself here. On account of having no choice but a 3000 gallon septic holding tank that must be pumped and trucked out.... My showers are very very short. And I use dual flush toilets in both bathrooms and it would be a luxury to flush them with every use just as a example of how water is conserved here.  You know the saying, if it's yellow let it mellow... Most homes up here go by that....


----------



## Chris Hoskin (Jan 24, 2014)

KenLockett said:


> Even more depressing than simply looking up the cost is that this winter supply of wood will be gone this week and I have to make the hard decision whether to call the oil man out, tap into next years wood supply currently seasoning (since May) and try to encourage additional drying in the basement, or try to find seasoned firewood for sale this time of year (which is appearing more difficult than I thought).  My usual supplier from past years (a renewables plant that sales packaged firewood for camping) informed me on Monday that their usual price of $240 per cord had increase to $385 per cord.  On principle I told then good luck and no thanks.  With that said still cheaper than fuel oil I suppose but I tend to be very stubborn.  May take off Friday to head off into my woods to try processing some dead standing or dead fall that may already be dry.



Ken, at those prices for firewood, you might want to consider picking up a pallet/ton of Bio Bricks to mix in with your current wood so it lasts longer and/or your next year's supply so that the moisture content of the fuel load is lower.  In my experience you can buy a skid for about $300.00 which is the equivalent of a cord of wood, but super dry.  I don't recommend you burn them straight, but mixed with regular firewood works very well.  Got a half a load of bio bricks mixed with firewood in the showroom FHG right now and we're heating the whole place with just above zero outdoors!  Good stuff.    Go to http://originalbiobricks.com/buy to find your local dealer.  (no affiliation, just like to burn 'em).


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## jebatty (Jan 24, 2014)

> I use my boiler to heat my 53 gallon hot water tank and it can put out over 300 gallons of hot water an hour.


$4-$5 a month for electric for wife and me. We've used a lot of if we use 20 gallons a day, let alone an hour. Nothing is cheaper than electric for us.


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## heaterman (Jan 24, 2014)

Using local prices here and the DOE fuel cost calculator, this is how the numbers crunch out in Michigan.


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

AK13 said:


> It really depends on what you pay and propane pricing is all over the map. If you heat with propane then you probably get a good enough price to make DHW heating cheaper than electric. If you mainly just use i for DHW like me then your propane company is probably hosing you with a stupidly high price.
> 
> Of course it depends on what you pay for electric also. In NE we pay top dollar for electricity and its still cheaper than what I am paying for propane right now.
> 
> By the way, I'm suspicious of ALL utility provided math


I own my LP tank. If I think I'm hosed I call another supplier to compare the price and I only fill in the summer after the price has settled. 
It's simple math to figure out fuel cost for any energy using appliance. It's all in btu's per hour and Efficiency rating. I've met with an electric company number cruncher and he told it like it was. And he showed the cost of the various gas or electric heaters too. It was for heating a insulated garage in Minnesota. But suspicion is good and they get it often I'm sure, lol


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## jebatty (Jan 24, 2014)

No doubt the numbers don't lie, except the numbers are way out of whack in our area. Electric for off-peak hot water is about $0.04/kwh. That comes to $11.72 per million btu. Natural gas is not available; no idea of the rate if it would be available. No way to get wood at $95/cord, maybe $185 around here, IF it was available. Seasoned fire wood very hard to find currently. Have no idea about the other fuels. 

At $4-5/month for "fuel" cost for dhw, I could run on resistance electric for probably 20 years for the initial cost of a heat pump hot water heater. Wife and I practice conservation + insulation = very low cost = $$$ savings for things more important than water dumped down the drain.


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## heaterman (Jan 24, 2014)

Just hung up with a customer that told me he had to buy propane for $3.18/gallon as all of his prebuy quantity from last summer was already used up. He bought that for $1.79.
At that price he didn't think a pellet boiler made sense and he's probably right from an purely economic standpoint. Now however, he is thinking differently.....


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## WiscWoody (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm sure many that never gave it much of a thought are looking now and wandering where the stove will sit and how to pipe it. Calling the stove installers.....edit... Where the boiler will sit and connecting it within....


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## BoilerMan (Jan 24, 2014)

jebatty said:


> No doubt the numbers don't lie, except the numbers are way out of whack in our area. Electric for off-peak hot water is about $0.04/kwh.


 
If I were building a house with really cheap off peak rates (wish we had TOU metering here) I'd install an 80 gal electric water heater on a timer, electric boiler to heat thick slab-on-grade on a timer, or at the least, 1000 gal LP tank with electric elements to heat it at night......electric storage.

I'd say heaterman's numbers ar pretty close to what we pay here.

With all this talk about water heating, a standing pilot gas unit has efficiencies in the 50-60% range, direct fired oil (Bock) are not much better.  This is what happens when you have a vertical flue right up the middle of a steel tank..... 

TS


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## goosegunner (Jan 25, 2014)

Yesterday it was $4.89 a gallon her and suppliers are expecting it to continue to rise. The also are telling people we will put you on the waiting list, we are working our way down. 

gg


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## Karl_northwind (Jan 25, 2014)

I'm just up the road from you and we're getting the same prices up here.  my mother in law (whose LP heating system I just finished) is having a hard time getting propane at all.  

I'm hooking up an electric water heater to heat my solar tank (unpressurized) when the temp of the tank gets above 130, the existing controls will turn force heat into the basement floor.  running it all off peak at $0.06/kwh.  which is about $18 per MMBTU as opposed to $4.89 propane which is about $59 per MMBTU.  the basement floor and DHW is the only thing that gets propane, supplemented with solar, and now off peak electric.  

bummer for a lot of people, but I hope it wakes up the masses about diversification of heating fuels.  my wife is starting to talk with excitement about the boiler shed!


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## WiscWoody (Jan 25, 2014)

BoilerMan said:


> If I were building a house with really cheap off peak rates (wish we had TOU metering here) I'd install an 80 gal electric water heater on a timer, electric boiler to heat thick slab-on-grade on a timer, or at the least, 1000 gal LP tank with electric elements to heat it at night......electric storage.
> 
> I'd say heaterman's numbers ar pretty close to what we pay here.
> 
> ...


I did HVAC work for a career, mainly large steam and HW boilers and chillers. I fitted my DHW flue with a Honeywell powered damper. With a power vent heater it gets it's signal from the flame module. It helps some but I don't know if it will ever pay for it self at a wholesale cost of $40.


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## BoiledOver (Feb 12, 2014)

I see the price has taken a small drop this week. Looks like the State of Michigan has it better than other states. How are prices in your area?

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W


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## STIHLY DAN (Feb 12, 2014)

This is really a regional decision with different rates for all the fuels. I have had 3 different water heaters in the last 3 years. 1st was oil tankless coil boiler. Running only hot water was $1,400 a yr. Then an 80 gal electric $600 a yr. Now a 50 gal hpwh $200 a yr. This is not off peak anything. I also researched dryers, electric at .19 c kwh vs propane at $250 a gal Electric was 25 cents a load cheaper.


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## WiscWoody (Feb 12, 2014)

STIHLY DAN said:


> This is really a regional decision with different rates for all the fuels. I have had 3 different water heaters in the last 3 years. 1st was oil tankless coil boiler. Running only hot water was $1,400 a yr. Then an 80 gal electric $600 a yr. Now a 50 gal hpwh $200 a yr. This is not off peak anything. I also researched dryers, electric at .19 c kwh vs propane at $250 a gal Electric was 25 cents a load cheaper.


Yes electric would be much cheaper than $250 a gallon propane no doubt!! My gosh!! And I thought our propane was expensive!


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## woodsmaster (Feb 14, 2014)

propane is almost 6 dollers a gallon here


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## harttj (Feb 14, 2014)

woodsmaster said:


> propane is almost 6 dollers a gallon here



I'm also in NW Ohio. Guy at work here paid $5.80 per gallon. 

This was the year to prebuy if using propain. 

Tim


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## newyorker (Feb 14, 2014)

Its about 2.60 hear in finger lakes more then a dollar more then last year


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## BoiledOver (Feb 26, 2014)

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W

How are prices in your area? Michigan is back down a bit $3.359.

Minus temperatures again tonight and a wicked wind. On the upside I still haven't burned a drop of propane to heat and accelerated the payback time on the new boiler.


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## blackdoglabrador (Feb 26, 2014)

$4.38 a gallon in central vermont, $1 more then last year this time.  Burned 25 gallons this month for heat, hot water, dryer, and stove.  Looking to switch HPWH and electric dryer ($0.17kkwh)in the coming months (both need updating regardless).  Based on my calculation it will be about $10 cheaper per million btu's for electric.  Plus finish the radiant in my, hope to go to near zero propane usage this time next year.


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## aimee750 (Feb 26, 2014)

I got 150 gallons on the 17th and paid 2.57, last February it was 1.32!


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## arbutus (Feb 26, 2014)

BoiledOver said:


> http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W
> 
> How are prices in your area? Michigan is back down a bit $3.359.
> 
> Minus temperatures again tonight and a wicked wind. On the upside I still haven't burned a drop of propane to heat and accelerated the payback time on the new boiler.


 

I paid $2.99/gal last week.
Other suppliers in the area were over $5/gallon a couple weeks ago!


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## WiscWoody (Feb 26, 2014)

$2.57 a gallon is a good price this winter even though it is much more than last year and it might shock you if your not currently watching prices.  Many have paid as high as $6 a gallon this winter, but around here I've only heard the price as high as $4.50 a gallon. I fill my tank every summer and it was $1.19 a gallon for my last fill. I'll see what it'll be this summer, I bet less than $1.50.


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## Vinced (Feb 26, 2014)

I payed $2.39 a gallon today in central Wisconsin. I ran out of seasoned wood.


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## BoiledOver (Feb 27, 2014)

Vinced said:


> I payed $2.39 a gallon today in central Wisconsin. I ran out of seasoned wood.


 Sorry to hear of your propane purchase. I see quite a few empty woodpiles in our township too.


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## eauzonedan (Feb 27, 2014)

25 mi north of Hayward WI neighbor was just charged 4.59 and told cash up front or no fuel. I believe the
worst pain is confined in local areas. Weather guy in Duluth MN last night said its coldest recorded winter since mid 1800s and number two overall. Now please explain just why I picked this year to move north from Chicago?


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 28, 2014)

eauzonedan said:


> 25 mi north of Hayward WI neighbor was just charged 4.59 and told cash up front or no fuel. I believe the
> worst pain is confined in local areas. Weather guy in Duluth MN last night said its coldest recorded winter since mid 1800s and number two overall. Now please explain just why I picked this year to move north from Chicago?


you made the right choice.  I'd move back up in a heartbeat.


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## FXRrider (Mar 2, 2014)

Paid $2.50 here in Central Illinois this week.


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## Sawyer (Mar 4, 2014)

eauzonedan said:


> 25 mi north of Hayward WI neighbor was just charged 4.59 and told cash up front or no fuel. I believe the
> worst pain is confined in local areas. Weather guy in Duluth MN last night said its coldest recorded winter since mid 1800s and number two overall. Now please explain just why I picked this year to move north from Chicago?



Salt water is looking pretty good to me after this stretch of weather.  Spent last weekend ice fishing on Green Bay, guess I will never learn!


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## BoiledOver (Mar 5, 2014)

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W

Dropped 11 cents from last week. Seems to be a direct correlation to the outdoor temperature.


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## WiscWoody (Mar 12, 2014)

I called my propane company today for the current prices. $2.19 a gallon now for a owned tank. A nickel more fore a leased tank. They think it'll go down below $1.50 a gallon this summer as usual for our area.


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## BoiledOver (Mar 13, 2014)

Yeah, right back to normal. It is my opinion that it was not actually supply and demand that drove those high prices. More like an immoral gouging based on weather forecasts. In this area the propane was not depleted and the needed extra was supplied at an inflated cost to customers. So glad to have gone totally to cord wood.


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## AK13 (Mar 13, 2014)

WiscWoody said:


> I called my propane company today for the current prices. $2.19 a gallon now for a owned tank. A nickel more fore a leased tank. They think it'll go down below $1.50 a gallon this summer as usual for our area.



I just can't figure out how the propane price spread can be so wide. I'd gladly pay $2.25/gal for a leased tank. I'm paying $4.35 right now. Its ridiculous. I'm going to look into changing companies this spring. If that doesn't work it might be time to swap out to a heat pump water heater.


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## WiscWoody (Mar 13, 2014)

Supply's were short, very short. That's why prices went sky high. Why would they ration you to 150 gallons per fill if they had plenty but were just gouging?


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## Leonard (Mar 15, 2014)

The prices in the Northeast skyrocketed from the train incident in Lec Megantic they are not allowing the railway to transport LPG. 

I pay $ 2.67 a gallon and everything in my 2600 sq/ft home is gas we use right around 900 gallons per year.  I had thought about buying my own tank and filling when prices are low then I would have to look at a 1000 gallon tank in my yard or bury it.  How much would I really be saving after spending a grand on the tank?


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## WiscWoody (Mar 15, 2014)

Leonard said:


> The prices in the Northeast skyrocketed from the train incident in Lec Megantic they are not allowing the railway to transport LPG.
> 
> I pay $ 2.67 a gallon and everything in my 2600 sq/ft home is gas we use right around 900 gallons per year.  I had thought about buying my own tank and filling when prices are low then I would have to look at a 1000 gallon tank in my yard or bury it.  How much would I really be saving after spending a grand on the tank?


Well, if you pay any lease fee on it you'd save that and usually they charge just an extra nickel per gallon to fill their tanks. I had to buy mine when I started to burn wood since I wasn't using enough gas to keep the lease fee at $1 a year. I have a 500 gallon tank but I do wish I had a bigger tank (1000 gallons). I find that if the tank is repainted every so often it looks ok in the yard. I've seen so many that are never painted and they are real eye soars!! I sprayed mine in gloss white with a gloss blue cap.


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## aimee750 (Mar 15, 2014)

Paid $1.78 here yesterday!  It's about time it's under $2.


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## WiscWoody (Mar 15, 2014)

aimee750 said:


> Paid $1.78 here yesterday!  It's about time it's under $2.


That's not bad! I'll get my usual summer fill in July and it should be $1.29 by then. Mason City, IA... My birthplace.


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## KD0AXS (Mar 15, 2014)

Mother Nature has found a convenient way to keep our propane tank out of sight!  :D


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## arbutus (Mar 16, 2014)

^




Our propane tank was about like that before the couple of most recent warmer days.  Out of sight, out of mind.


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## BoiledOver (Mar 16, 2014)

Very good to hear of lowered prices, wasas an aweful squirt for some folks.

13,410 pounds burned here and still counting.


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## Leonard (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't think in Maine I have ever seen the price below $ 2.00 a gallon.  I switched suppliers last year as Downeast was going to raise the price to a dollar more than I currently pay!  I told em too pound sand.


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## aimee750 (Mar 17, 2014)

Leonard said:


> I don't think in Maine I have ever seen the price below $ 2.00 a gallon.  I switched suppliers last year as Downeast was going to raise the price to a dollar more than I currently pay!  I told em too pound sand.


Ugh, that sucks, all last winter I paid $1.32.  So that's why this year with prices close to $5 was such a shock.


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## WiscWoody (Mar 17, 2014)

Yep, last winter LPG was cheap here in the  Midwest. $2 or a little more wouldn't be too bad if you burned scrounged wood in a stove like I do. It's nice to have the choice of wood or gas up here where it gets fairly cold. I let the furnace kick in at night at 60 F after the stove cools down and fire up the wood again when I get up early... Or not!


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## BoiledOver (Mar 17, 2014)

aimee750 said:


> Ugh, that sucks, all last winter I paid $1.32.  So that's why this year with prices close to $5 was such a shock.


 Yeah, that's like a 220 volt shock.


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## BoiledOver (Mar 20, 2014)

Propane customers were played.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W


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## WiscWoody (Mar 20, 2014)

BoiledOver said:


> Propane customers were played.
> 
> http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W


So, are you saying that it was a conspiracy of some sort?


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## AK13 (Mar 21, 2014)

WiscWoody said:


> So, are you saying that it was a conspiracy of some sort?



Probably not a conspiracy. Just run of the mill price gouging. 

BoiledOver, how did you generate that graph. I'd like to pull up the same for NH.


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## heaterman (Mar 21, 2014)

Wholesale cost for propane did indeed hit the high the range of $2.50 to $3.00 per gallon. The factor that really drove spot pricing was transportation costs. The big regional guys in our area where paying equivalent of $.75 all the way to $2.00 per gallon to just get it here from much farther distances than usual. I saw tankers on the expressway with plates from as far away as Texas and Utah and that costs big bucks compared to getting it delivered by rail to a central distribution point.

That is an interesting chart Boiled Over.  Interesting in that you can clearly see the trend since the early 2000's. Ignore the high and low marks and just trace a line through the middle. It shows propane costs have doubled over the last decade. If the same happens over the next 10 years we will be looking at an average consistently over $3.00 / gallon. 
Anyone here think it will go down?


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## chken (Mar 21, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Probably not a conspiracy. Just run of the mill price gouging.
> 
> BoiledOver, how did you generate that graph. I'd like to pull up the same for NH.


Those are federal stats, I don't think they generate them for each state. It's more likely that Michigan is just a proxy for the LP prices for the nation.


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## chken (Mar 21, 2014)

heaterman said:


> That is an interesting chart Boiled Over.  Interesting in that you can clearly see the trend since the early 2000's. Ignore the high and low marks and just trace a line through the middle. It shows propane costs have doubled over the last decade. If the same happens over the next 10 years we will be looking at an average consistently over $3.00 / gallon.
> Anyone here think it will go down?


Seasonality starts to show more strongly in the 2000s, because that's when they started recording weekly data, January 2000. Before that, it was bi-weekly.

A doubling in price in 10 years is about 7% annualized, which is almost what it did in the 94 to 2004 period as well, when it went from about $0.87 to $1.49, then ten years later to $3.15.


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## WiscWoody (Mar 21, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Probably not a conspiracy. Just run of the mill price gouging.
> 
> BoiledOver, how did you generate that graph. I'd like to pull up the same for NH.


I know they can mess with supply to inflate the price. Some refiners in CA were caught doing so not long ago. One refinery even said they were shutting down for maintenance when supplies were already tight. Thing is, they were filling their tanks yet and got caught by the states pollution monitoring. They could tell that they were still refining oil from the air samples being taken daily! Lol


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## BoiledOver (Mar 21, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Probably not a conspiracy. Just run of the mill price gouging.
> 
> BoiledOver, how did you generate that graph. I'd like to pull up the same for NH.


 Go to this webpage. Select the box or boxes that you would like t see graphed. Click on the graph button above the checked box.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_dcus_snh_w.htm


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## AK13 (Mar 24, 2014)

I shopped my propane rate last Friday. I use about 750 gallons a year. And I was paying $4.35/gal. The new company will charge me $3.35/gallon. This is for Southwestern, NH. 

They said that the rate would be 0.10 cheaper if I had my own tanks. But the tank cost was $700 so that would have a 10 year payback and I decided not to bother (for now anyway).


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## WiscWoody (Mar 24, 2014)

You can shop around if you own the tank. If you lease your tank only they can fill it. I'm surprised the price is still that high there, it's around $2 a gallon up here now. It sounds like everything costs more in the eastern states!


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## BoiledOver (May 17, 2014)

The Michigan Attorney General has an investigation under way and has issued subpoenas to Ferrillgas and Amerigas.

"Schuette has received more than 400 complaints against propane retailers this past winter, including 44 against AmeriGas."

http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2014/03/propane_company_subpoenaed_in.html


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## BoiledOver (May 18, 2014)

Propane price graph for Indiana:

http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/files/2014/03/IND_Propane-Price-Gouging.jpg

A woman in Indiana was charged $7.14 per gallon after being quoted $2.89 by Ferrellgas:

http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/hundreds-propane-customers-file-price-gouging-complaints-64575/


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## WiscWoody (May 20, 2014)

BoiledOver said:


> The Michigan Attorney General has an investigation under way and has issued subpoenas to Ferrillgas and Amerigas.
> 
> "Schuette has received more than 400 complaints against propane retailers this past winter, including 44 against AmeriGas."
> 
> http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2014/03/propane_company_subpoenaed_in.html


HS! One guy gets billed $8 a gallon and has a $4500 fill up! That's gouging! It looks like Ferrillgas will have to pay up now.


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## WiscWoody (May 21, 2014)

I just got my newsletter from my LP supplier and they're saying the propane crisis isn't over yet, saying that much of next years LP stocks have been bought up already.


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## BoiledOver (Dec 8, 2014)

Michigan propane prices are at the same rate as last year for the beginning of the heating season.  $2.07 - $2.20 according to the EIA website.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W

Any predictions?


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## KD0AXS (Dec 8, 2014)

We had our tank filled in August at $1.89, and we also pre-bought an additional 300 gallons.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 8, 2014)

I asked a driver filling a neighbors tank what it going for. $1.74 a gallon. No shortage this year thank goodness!


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## sloeffle (Dec 9, 2014)

I no longer have propane.  

But Ferrellgas called last week and said if I bought 200 gallons minimum they would fill my tank for $1.69.


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## newyorker (Dec 9, 2014)

Dad just filled his 320 for 1.38 when I built my house in 2010 it was 1.36!!


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## AK13 (Dec 9, 2014)

WiscWoody said:


> river filling a neighbors tank what it going for. $1.74 a gallon. No shortage this year thank goodness!





sloeffle said:


> I no longer have propane.
> 
> But Ferrellgas called last week and said if I bought 200 gallons minimum they would fill my tank for $1.69.



Lucky you! I am down to just using it for cooking so it hardly matters what it costs because we use so little. But this thread still drives me crazy. My last delivery was $3.79! It is just crazy how much the cost of propane varies by region. Same is true for most fuels I guess, but propane is really crazy.


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## BoiledOver (Dec 9, 2014)

Yeah, propane for DHW, cooking and clothes dryer here. Averages out to about 10 gallons per month so the 330 gallon tank gets a fill every 24 months. Of course it happens in the summer months.


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## WiscWoody (Dec 10, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Lucky you! I am down to just using it for cooking so it hardly matters what it costs because we use so little. But this thread still drives me crazy. My last delivery was $3.79! It is just crazy how much the cost of propane varies by region. Same is true for most fuels I guess, but propane is really crazy.


Those prices are highway robbery! I know that for some reason LP is less expensive here in the upper Midwest. Electricity isn't too bad either from what some of been posting from the east. Do you have a small tank making it more expensive for small deliveries? I have a 500 gallon tank that I own but I wish I would have bought a 1000 gallon tank for the flexibility of it and it's a little cheaper to fill on per gallon. It's last me for years.


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## AK13 (Dec 10, 2014)

Yes, I only have an 80 gallon tank I think. They own the tank. But when I've called around in the past I was told that I'd only get a $0.10 discount if I owned it. 

Energy prices are just higher here in the NE. This says average propane price is $3.30. That is the price I was going to get if I switched suppliers but instead I just went with a HPWH instead. 

http://www.nh.gov/oep/energy/energy-nh/fuel-prices/index.htm


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## WiscWoody (Dec 10, 2014)

AK13 said:


> Yes, I only have an 80 gallon tank I think. They own the tank. But when I've called around in the past I was told that I'd only get a $0.10 discount if I owned it.
> 
> Energy prices are just higher here in the NE. This says average propane price is $3.30. That is the price I was going to get if I switched suppliers but instead I just went with a HPWH instead.
> 
> http://www.nh.gov/oep/energy/energy-nh/fuel-prices/index.htm


Well it is the time for LP spots prices to be high on top of the usually higher price in your area. Luckily it sounds like you won't use much of it.


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## BoiledOver (Feb 10, 2015)

So different from last year. See that Mt. Everest there in the graph from last year. No way there was any price gouging?

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=W_EPLLPA_PRS_SMI_DPG&f=W


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## arbutus (Feb 10, 2015)

Filled recently.  2.14/gallon, 273 gallons.


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## goosegunner (Feb 10, 2015)

Filled last week.

$1.69/ gallon with a leased tank.

Another supplier in area was $1.54 if you owned your tank.

gg


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## KD0AXS (Feb 10, 2015)

We had 300 gallons delivered last week that we pre-bought at $1.89. Current price was $1.94.


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 10, 2015)

Filled last week, rented tank, small fill (<200 gal) and 1.39/gal.


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## Sawyer (Feb 10, 2015)

$1.49 if you lease, $1.39 if you own here also.


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## brant2000 (Feb 10, 2015)

I just use it for cooking and always have to pay an annual minimum to cover the tank lease.  Last fill cost $70 for 12 gallons.


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## BoiledOver (Feb 11, 2015)

Say yes to Wisconsin, you got propane. Good prices too.


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## Karl_northwind (Feb 12, 2015)

BoiledOver said:


> Say yes to Wisconsin, you got propane. Good prices too.


I'd take expensive propane and a state economy that's not in the crapper.


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## heaterman (Feb 12, 2015)

Karl_northwind said:


> I'd take expensive propane and a state economy that's not in the crapper.



Agreed. The news media and government keep blurbing about our economic recovery. Haven't seen it here yet.
The dairy industry is the only thing that kept us afloat the last couple years but now that's taking a huge dive also. Not much planned for summer projects. 
Hoping some of the few remaining millionaires around here decide to build a house because the people working in factories and retail sure can't afford to do so anymore.
Going to be an interesting year because I would bet many people thinking about alternative energy/heating are going to abandon the idea in the face of lower energy costs.


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## bdud (Feb 13, 2015)

Just had my tank filled up (2/6/15). $4.26 a gallon 
Same price as 12/15/14 and I rent a tank from for $100 a year!!
I had phoned a number of propane suppliers in my area and all about the same price after I got the December bill.
I think they said restricted deliveries into New England were to blame.


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## BoiledOver (Apr 26, 2015)

Remember the cold winter we were having when this thread was started 15 months ago? My assertion was that propane suppliers were price gouging their customers. See the article at the following link.

http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2014/10/settlement_500k_to_be_returned.html


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## BoiledOver (Jun 8, 2015)

Got my tank (not a rental) filled. A dollar and 40 cents is about where these prices should hover, anything else is bull. If nothing terrible happens, will get the next fill in 2017.


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## Sawyer (Jun 8, 2015)

$0.78/gallon here. I will not heat my water with wood this summer at these prices. I will save the wood for the time when prices go back up.


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## maple1 (Jun 9, 2015)

Just went back & read the first couple of pages of this thread.

Wow - talk about what a difference a year makes.....


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## heaterman (Jun 9, 2015)

What company did you buy from Boiled Over?

And George Good Grief   $.78 per gallon???


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## BoiledOver (Jun 9, 2015)

heaterman said:


> What company did you buy from Boiled Over?
> 
> And George Good Grief   $.78 per gallon???



Fischer.

If propane were $0.78 here and was consistent, I wouldn't have gone with a wood boiler.


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## heaterman (Jun 10, 2015)

That's for sure. These are crazy price fluctuations.  $4.00 per gallon one year and $1.00 the next. 

Given the world environment in which we live these days, I think the lesson to be learned is that it's probably wise 
to insulate yourself from this craziness by installing a flexible heating system. One that is not dependent on a single fuel source.


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## maple1 (Jun 10, 2015)

heaterman said:


> Given the world environment in which we live these days, I think the lesson to be learned is that it's probably wise
> to insulate yourself from this craziness by installing a flexible heating system. One that is not dependent on a single fuel source.


 
Yes indeed. Partly why I got the boiler I did (can easily add a pellet head kit if desired), and also what has me considering a mini-split. I have not also completely ruled out putting an oil tank back in if necessary (left the thru-wall part of the fill pipes in place), and would have NG if it went by here.

Wife thinks I'm a bit nuts with this stuff.....


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## tom in maine (Jun 10, 2015)

Just checked Propane prices here in Maine. They do not seem to have changed. 
I would think .78 propane is setting someone up for a bait and switch deal.
Much of this can be shipped to Europe where prices are much higher.

Glad that you are enjoying low prices. Enjoy it while you can.


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## STIHLY DAN (Jun 10, 2015)

I have my own 100# tanks that I take to be filled. Tractor supply is the cheapest at $2.59 gal. 2nd is a special $85 for a 100 lb. There is 23 gal in 100# tank.


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## sloeffle (Jun 11, 2015)

89 cents a gallon in our area, if you own your tank. When we had our tank it was always about 10 cent cheaper than if you rented your tank.


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## WiscWoody (Jun 13, 2015)

Well! I feel like I got ripped off at $.94 a gallon on my fill the other day! Lol


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## STIHLY DAN (Jun 13, 2015)

you all suck.


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## jpelizza (Jun 16, 2015)

$1.56/gallon here near albany ny.  was $1.37 in 2004.  last year at this time $2.19
i own my tank.  i only fill up once in summer.  use it for cook top and a little heating late fall and early spring, and dhw from april till mid november.  once i get my storage finally figured out and in hopefully this year then i'll only use about 90 gallons a year max.


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## KD0AXS (Jun 18, 2015)

We just had our tank filled for $1.24/gallon and pre-bought another 300 gallons.


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## heaterman (Jun 19, 2015)

One of my boys just locked in 1000 gallons at $1.09 and guaranteed max of $1.24 for the 2015-2016 season. He owns his own tank.


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## BoiledOver (Jun 20, 2015)

Your son does not go with wood or pellet heat at all?


heaterman said:


> One of my boys just locked in 1000 gallons at $1.09 and guaranteed max of $1.24 for the 2015-2016 season. He owns his own tank.


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## heaterman (Jun 20, 2015)

BoiledOver said:


> Your son does not go with wood or pellet heat at all?



They just bought a different house and are sinking available dollars into insulation, windows, doors etc before they decide what to actually heat with down the road. It's gas forced air and the would like to switch the whole system over to hydronic of some kind. Radiators, either iron or steel panel type and maybe some under floor tubing are on the drawing board but for now the payback is too far out to justify sinking $10K into an alternative system when they have all the other stuff get done. 

He'll probably wind up with a pellet boiler as he's done the wood thing for about 10 years in his old house and he's tired of it. Once propane gets to the $2.00 range again, he'll be looking a little harder. 
The other son is moving too and his new place has natural gas. At about $.70/therm it puts payback waaaaaay down the road for anything but a little free standing wood stove.


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