# To Garn or Not to Garn



## stihlgoin (Mar 13, 2008)

Hello everyone, and thank you for all the info I've gleaned as a lurker up to this point.  My wife and I are ready to get a wood boiler to heat our 4-year old (well insulated), 2,800 sq. ft home.  With my inlaws living in a poorly insulated (almost left the "A" out of insulated ) home about 250 feet from us, we are trying to select a boiler to heat both houses and provide dhw to both year-round.  Now that we have a local Garn dealer, we were almost set to start serious talks with them to design a sytem around the Garn 2000, but reading the Switzers thread, I have decided to wait and potentially call Gary this friday to discuss the options with him.  It sounds as though he can integrate a few more features into his designs, which may come in handy as we heat with radiant floor/oil boiler, and my inlaws use hot water baseboard/oil boiler (higher temps as I understand).  Without doing a heat loss, it sounds like the Garn 2000 can heat 5,000 sq ft with ease, but is it a good choice for year-round domestic hot water?  I don't want to burn too often fom May to Sept. just to have a hot shower, but between the two houses, dhw thru that time period can use over $1200 in oil -mainly to keep the boiler cores warm.  We do not have natural gas access, and a propane water heater isn't terribly attractive to me as we have 30+ acres of yet unmanaged wood on our property to take advantage of.  Thanks in advance.


-Looking forward to spring,

Chris


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## TCaldwell (Mar 13, 2008)

chris, with either boiler you could supply "days" of domestic hw on 1 firing, I have a garn 1900, 1906gal , heating a pool, hot tub and dwh through a indirect fired water heater during the off season, a 2800 sqft house, 500 sqft shop and hot tub during the winter. with a switzer you get a dhw coil, boiler insulation, being pressureized , a higher water temp, no hx. in my opinion they are both capable of doing what you want, i would strongly recomend  calculating your heat loss,a little more storage is a good thing, too little is a cramp.


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## EForest (Mar 13, 2008)

You're only @ 1 1/2 hrs from Gary. He's the kind of guy that will make the trip to help you resolve any issues you might have after installation. I'm waiting for my insurance company to give me the green light to install his boiler as my primary heat source (with the oil gun) and then the check will be in the mail. He can and will customize a boiler/heating system to your needs. Then he will personally deliver it to your house and install it if needed. 
This is sounding like I've fallen for a sales pitch but after you speak to Gary and someone that owns one you'll believe the hype.
there's nothing like the personal service of a small business owner.
Oh ya, and his boiler is as good if not better than a Garn for less money.

Best of luck in your wood boiler quest!


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## stihlgoin (Mar 13, 2008)

Thanks.  As with any product, I was pretty sure both parties would "sell" me on what they had to offer, so real-world experience helps tremendously.  The only potential hang-up at this point may be with the fact that I'd be heating someone else's property.  I'll just check with the local code guy, and call Gary on friday.  A trip to his shop would allow me to stop at a couple wineries nearby as well as visit the breeder of our Great Pyrenees (just down the road from Dundee).  -I'll keep updates coming.

Chris


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## brad068 (Mar 13, 2008)

Does anyone have pics of Gary's boilers? I would like to see if he is using any ceramics/firebrick. You know my philosophy on not using refractory!


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## EForest (Mar 13, 2008)

Gary uses no firebrick/ceramic. Although he agrees that ceramics give a cleaner burn and hotter temps he thinks they're not necessary in his boilers.
Call him, he'd love to talk to you. I have a video i will post after i upload to youtube. I've never used youtube so it might be a few days before that happens.


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## loggie (Mar 14, 2008)

I had a long talk with Gary the other night and after looking at gasifiers for almost 3 years I am impressed with what he had to say.I have not received his video yet nor have I seen one yet but it sounds like exactly what I'm looking for and I'm only 2 hrs from his shop so I will be able to see one up close.I would be interested to know what the insurance company has to say about it.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 14, 2008)

His advertisement does say his boilers are UL listed.  So, I think insurance should only be an issue due to specific company policies.  I haven't called him yet today, -I'm barely awake- but going in to this win-win (Garn-Switzer) scenario, my only concern is the simplicity of the Garn's horizontal flue vs. power venting out a chimney with the Switzer (at least that was in another thread).  I'll have to get the facts and go on from there.  I'm somewhat of a minimalist, so I like less moving/breakable parts in a design.  -We'll have to see how things stack up.  I am, however, extremely excited to start managing my woodlot and stop wasting our money on oil, no matter which boiler ends up in a yet-to-be-built energy-center.  After that, maybe a grid-tie solar setup while NYS is still throwing out huge rebates........

-I'll do some heat loss on my in-laws place, call Gary, and hit the chain saw dealer.  Then I'll follow up.


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## EForest (Mar 14, 2008)

My insurance agent just called to give me the green light. I just called Gary to place my order.
I'm going with the 1050 plus 2/1000 gal propane tanks for additional storage (all pressurized!).
The system will incorporate numerous DHW coils for heat transfer to other buildings, hot tub, snow melt, and DHW.

stihlgoin,
both use forced draft blowers and both can use a chimney or not.
Switzer's boiler has a two speed fan and recommends a chimney for natural draft in case of power failure.
I will be installing the Switzer in place of my existing ailing oil guzzler and will use existing flue.
i'm gonna hafta insulate the B'Jesus out of those two propane tanks or the basement will be hotter than hell.
The UL listing is from 1986 and was done by Automated Test Labs Inc from Philly.

Best of luck!


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## verne (Mar 14, 2008)

how can I get info on switzers boiler ? thanks. edit- sorry I just read the other post


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## stihlgoin (Mar 14, 2008)

I left a message with Gary.  I have no idea where I'd store even one 1,000 gallon propane tank, as I doubt it would "squeeze" thru my Bilcos into the basement .  I could put one or two into the outbuilding I've not yet built, but I already pay $7k in property taxes, so I would like to keep the size to a minimum.  If he can do a properly sized all-in-one unit, I'll compare apples to apples and see who wins.  I calculated sq ft of my inlaws' home and it's about 2500.  So, between the two homes, 5300 sq.ft. and we have yet to build a garage/greenhouse.  Should be a fun process.
Chris


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## EForest (Mar 14, 2008)

verne2 said:
			
		

> how can I get info on switzers boiler ? thanks. edit- sorry I just read the other post


Switzer's Custom Woodburning System Inc.
1557 Ellis Rd
Dundee, NY 14837
1-607-243-8689


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## TCaldwell (Mar 15, 2008)

stihlgoing,  by far the garn has fewer moving parts with regards to the minimalist thing. I am finding out through testing of induced draft  speed, ie combustion temps and flue temps that  except  for  controllable puffing, i did install a turbulator in the lastpass of the hx tube thus lowering flue temp , that the garn is probabaly about 90% of the best it can be stock, with only 2 moving parts!


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## stihlgoin (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm pretty much gonna go with the Garn WHS 2000.  Simple, non-pressurized and has ceramic.  Now I'd better start felling some trees.

Thanks for all the input.

Chris


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## brad068 (Mar 16, 2008)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> stihlgoing, by far the garn has fewer moving parts with regards to the minimalist thing. I am finding out through testing of induced draft speed, ie combustion temps and flue temps that except for controllable puffing, i did install a turbulator in the lastpass of the hx tube thus lowering flue temp , that the garn is probabaly about 90% of the best it can be stock, with only 2 moving parts!



Hey Tom,

How did the turbulator workout? I tried a new setup in my unit but didn't really see any difference. I made a make shift tubular grate that ran from the bottom air inlet to the start of the ceramic secondary. I was thinking that the tubular setup would preheat well and then inject it right into the secondary. Maybe we're tryin' to "push a rope" here.


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## loggie (Mar 16, 2008)

Are you putting the garn in your basement,because I spoke to someone at garn last week who will remain nameless and he told me not to put it in my basement and did not see how I could get it down there,I told him I have a walkout with double doors and 9' ceilings I can back a truck up to and he still insisted that I couldnt get It down there.I told him I move large heavy equipment regularly and I assured him I COULD GET IT IN THERE.He then said he still did not recommend it in the basement,He told me to buy a shipping container and put the garn in that next to the house,and I said I really don't feel that would be complimentary to my custom log home and he said that's how they do it in Alaska,then he started to tell me how to get firewood I said I have enough on my land Ive been burning wood for 20 years and he continued to tell me how to get wood!he was short on any technical info and was the biggest MORON I have spoken to in the gasifier marketplace!Well I'm sure the garn is a fine unit and it is indeed simpler but it is 1/3 more in cost plus shipping another 1k+.The switzer seems to have a lot going for it and I can pick it up myself,and I got to thinking all large commercial boilers are pressurized,I've worked around some the size of boxcars with 200hp draft blowers they must have reasons for this.Garn says they sell about 100 boilers a year switzer less than half that but if he had a website he would sell a ton more.I will be taking a ride to see the switzer the controls don't look too complicated to me, but I guess you see where I'm probably putting my money,and buy the way when I asked Gary about putting it in the basement he said SURE mines in my basement~~~


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## TCaldwell (Mar 16, 2008)

garnification, the short story is that a 9' turbulator in the last pass creates too much back pressure and cools the flue gas too much, the 4.5' turbulator seems a much better balance, however i am adding 1' increments to see if  it will do better, i will post results tomorrow.                                loggie, either way you get a good boiler, and with a switzer you get service after the sale!


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## TCaldwell (Mar 16, 2008)

garnification, how does the secondary air plenum work?


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## EForest (Mar 16, 2008)

loggie,
my switzer will be installed in the basement with an additional 2000 gal of pressurized storage.
As soon as i can reformat the video Gary sent I will post on youtube.


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## brad068 (Mar 16, 2008)

loggie,

just from what I've seen with my unit, I would also recommend not putting in the basement. If or when it boils over, it can create a cloud of steam like an old Roman bathhouse. One of the downfalls of non pressurization. So Gary's setup would be well suited for basement install. Garages or dedicated out building is definitely the way to go with a Garn.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 16, 2008)

stihlgoin said:
			
		

> I'm pretty much gonna go with the Garn WHS 2000.  Simple, non-pressurized and has ceramic.  Now I'd better start felling some trees.
> 
> Thanks for all the input.
> 
> Chris



End of story, right?  -Nope.  I left a 2nd message with Gary just to let him know that in consideration of his valuable time, I had pretty much made my mind up.  He called anyway.  -Gave me names of several locals that have his boilers, talked a bit about the features he incorporates, and is mailing me info.  I really like the feedback loop he utilizes to make the boiler "self-modulating (my term)" in regards to the optimal airflow involved with the burn.  It seemingly adapts to the individual fire/firewood just utilizing temp readings at various stages.  -I don't know his educational background (engineering, etc.), but he seems to have been given a large amount of common sense.  So, now I'm going to check out a local install or two and see how the pendulum swings.  I also like buying local when possible, so he now has my interest.

Also, it's not going in my basement.  I will be putting up a custom "woodshed" depending on what model we end up with.  I have a superior walls foundation with only a narrow stairway to enter it from outside.  He'd have to fabricate a boiler on site........


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## loggie (Mar 16, 2008)

I received the info on the switzer yesterday and like stihlgoin said it has the ability to modulate according to wood quality and moisture content and save the coals for the next fire seemingly automatically being able to burn any type of wood and still generate the same burn temps.This is the downfall I think of the downdraft boilers as if your wood loads are not the same every fire will produce a different outcome.Gasifierwannabe did you calculate your btu load yourself and with 3kgal of storage what is your goal for burn intervals?I was thinking of garys 1050 model and will get him to give me a price on an additional 1k or so storage tank with expansion.this way if I could take the other tank out of the loop I could cut down the charge time maybe on a night I get home from work late and won't have to wait 6hrs to bring the whole thing up to temp,what do you guys think about this idea?I am shooting fo 24hr burn intervals in winter.Garnification I looked at pictures of the boiler you built and it's really impressive,If I had the ability to construct a unit like that I think I would enter the market myself.Thanks to you and Tcaldwell for your input in my decision process. I will be planning to go see the switzer maybe the weekend after easter.Another thing to consider is why build a separate building to house a boiler thus heating another space and all the heatloss and the underground lines and expence (if you don't have an outbuilding your already heating)thus keeping the heat inth space I want to heat if only for not bringing wood dirt in the house?


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## TCaldwell (Mar 16, 2008)

loggie, the beauty of these boilers is that there is no need to isolate your storage, your charging ability , firing rate is at least 2 times your worst heat loss per hour. even with 2000 gal at 150deg you still have plenty of time to fire/recharge your storage and supply your heat loads, at the same time.     I dont know what test garnification performed to get his garn to boil over, they have a overflow tube that dumps out of the front of the boiler that will condense steam and drain the water/condensate onto the floor, i have a drain underneath the overflow piped outside if it was to happen. you would have to fire the boiler already at 185deg or better with a stout load of wood to "stimulate" this.


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## brad068 (Mar 16, 2008)

Tom,


I was stress testing it. I don't have a good lid on the man-way access just 4" of styrofoam. I to have an over flow with 1" radiator hose that dumps into a pail. If I fire mine at 155* or above it will boil over. I usually don't fire until @140* I know, I could fire with less wood, but I think it burns better with a firebox full not half full.

Tom, do you mean the secondary air inlet (top inlet) or the air collar?


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## EForest (Mar 16, 2008)

loggie said:
			
		

> Gasifierwannabe did you calculate your btu load yourself and with 3kgal of storage what is your goal for burn intervals?Another thing to consider is why build a separate building to house a boiler thus heating another space and all the heatloss and the underground lines and expence (if you don't have an outbuilding your already heating)thus keeping the heat inth space I want to heat if only for not bringing wood dirt in the house?



Loggie,
I downloaded the SLANTFIN heat loss calculator program from their website www.slantfin.com
Although i must admit i only did a couple of rooms and finished my calcs on the back of a napkin.
My goal is to burn once a day at coldest time of year and much less in mild season.
I will be burning year round for DHW and outdoor hot tub.

I will be installing my system in the basement instead of the barn but will heat both buildings w/ the Switzer.
I like the idea of feeding the beast during a blizzard in my slippers :coolsmirk: 
It also increases the chances of the wife learning what to do if I'm out of town.


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## EForest (Mar 20, 2008)

I spoke with Gary today and he mentioned that the phone has been ringing off the hook since this thread has developed.
His wife is worried she will be seeing him less because of the increased business. Lets hope he earns enough $$ from the 
increased sales to take her on a nice long cruise. She also asked that I not post the video on youtube for the same reason.
I can relate being self employed and too busy myself without any advertising so I will respect her wishes. If anyone here
is serious about his boiler Gary will mail you a copy of his video.

Garnification,
Gary's plan is to build my boiler as a three pass. 9"x 5' single tube with ceramic liner off fire box to 9/2"x8' tubes back to front, then 9/2" tubes out the rear to flue pipe and two speed draft inducer bolted to existing masonry chimney. I might test the unit with and without firebrick in the firebox after burning a few months as is but who knows maybe its not needed.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 20, 2008)

Maybe we could have the thread removed by a moderator for Gary's sake (and his wife's).  As the thread author, I don't mind a bit since I'm leaning toward having him make my boiler.  I don't want him too busy......  We can resume discussions under a thread nam that doesn't overtly use the Switzer name or something....


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm not sure what you're asking, but you can easily change the name of the thread yourself with the EDIT function on the first post.

If Gary (or his wife) are bothered by the increased workload and interest in their product, I'm sure they will let us know directly. I'll be happy to remove his phone number (or you can) from any post if he asks me to.


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## Sting (Mar 20, 2008)

I had a short chat with Gary earlier this week - He expressed that he hoped his video wouldn't be posted, he said his phone call volume had increased since this thread began, but he is also quite a willing to explain and share more than I asked.


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## smangold (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't think he has a computer at all.Seems amazing, but some people can still survive without the monthly inter-net bill.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 20, 2008)

Eric Johnson said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you're asking, but you can easily change the name of the thread yourself with the EDIT function on the first post.
> 
> If Gary (or his wife) are bothered by the increased workload and interest in their product, I'm sure they will let us know directly. I'll be happy to remove his phone number (or you can) from any post if he asks me to.



-Didn't think about a title change.  -I don't start threads on the guitar board I subscribe to. -Thanks for the help.

I'd just hate to have Gary so overwhelmed that he couldn't take care of his local farmers/Mennonites, and hopefully, myself in the future.


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## loggie (Mar 20, 2008)

I see the thread has been renamed,don't get the guy too busy or he wont have time to build my boiler!Gasifierwannabe will your boiler be his first with the single secondary burn chamber,funny I talked to him about that very thing the other night asking if the secondary 9 tubes all have secondary combustion when up to temp and he said yes.Will the third pass in yours be too much and lower the flue temp to the condensate point,I don't think I want to be the test mule.If it ain't broke don't fix it.But on the other hand a single secondary refractory lined with the double 9 tube passes on the way out should make a very efficient boiler with the best features of both brands if it works.I would think that with the 9 tube design would take a little longer to start gasifing when cold because of the additional area in contact with the water but as long as the burn is happening in all 9 tubes it would transfer the heat quickly,maybe that explains the extra measures to get air in on the brand 's' on the startup.Gasifierwannabe has he tested your request before?.We need to get Tcaldwell to get both styles side by side and wire them both with temp probes and see what works better,what do you guys think of all this.I gotta go make the call to get on the build list before the guy gets too busy.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 20, 2008)

It's time for me to call some of the local references he gave, and see one of these.  -Then, get on the list.  To be honest, I had seen his ad in  a magazine and figured with Garn having a local dealer now(Mansfield, PA), that this poor guy "S" would get run out of the boiler business.  -Go figure!  I'm also looking into an Isokern Chimney or similar with a brick ledge for this project.  (class up the shed a bit)  I'll run it by Gary when he's done returning calls.... I wasn't planning on a chimney (Garn), so just another detail to work out.  -What's this about refractory now?  I'd be very glad to be a test mule for that as well, given I'm only a short drive away.

Chris


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## EForest (Mar 21, 2008)

Gary has a farmer down the street from him with the boiler I'm purchasing.
We will not be the test mules. Gary has been building boilers for many years and has tweaked his scaled model many times.
He loves to talk about his product in great detail and how an inch here and tweak there can really change the performance.
That secondary chamber is almost the same as a Garn except with the garn that chamber reduces before taking its first turn.
Gary's boilers do not make the turn inside the tank. He adds a box outside of the tank to make the turn to the next pass.
These boxes can be opened for simplified tube cleaning once or twice a year.
He assures me that flue temps tend to run slightly higher with the three pass refractory unit.

I'm glad the moderator has put this post in stealth mode, I've been feeling a little guilty for posting his info after he told about his wife :sick:


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## TCaldwell (Mar 21, 2008)

Ed, i am finding that in the garn and probabaly most other high temp " clean burning" boilers produce a very fine fly ash that appears to be almost non existent , however even after 2 weeks the insulating factor of this ash is noticeable  in the differential temps between thermocouples. What i am suggesting is to leave plenty of access room to make frequent cleanings easy. I take a round wire wheel to steel extensions on the end of a drill every 2 weeks, takes about 20 minutes but what a difference, espicially when the exhaust gas gets closer to condensing. When is your boiler scheduled for delivery.


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## brad068 (Mar 21, 2008)

This has been some good reading. I remembered before I undertook my boiler project, I did some experimenting with some plastic. I basically built the primary chamber, secondary chamber and the first tube pass and installed a vacuum blower at the end of the firetube. All in all it was about 15' long. I placed a rag soaked in diesel fuel on a piece of channel iron and lit it. The hottest part was the 4" pvc pipe that started 6' from the burning rag and was a total of 10'. Maybe the gases are speeding up and getting compressed causing friction on the smaller pipe???? Or maybe I breathed to much diesel smoke!

One problem I have seen with my boiler is the multi pipe last pass. I'm exiting right off the back of my boiler @240*. It will condensate smoke almost the entire burn. It dissipates quickly but looks bad. Looks like a commercial dryer running! Also, I have cleaned some fine ash out a a couple of tubes on the last pass. Nothing in the 4" pipes, only in the 9, 2" dia. I am burning green wood too which is causing some of these problems.


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## EForest (Mar 21, 2008)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Ed, i am finding that in the garn and probabaly most other high temp " clean burning" boilers produce a very fine fly ash that appears to be almost non existent , however even after 2 weeks the insulating factor of this ash is noticeable in the differential temps between thermocouples. What i am suggesting is to leave plenty of access room to make frequent cleanings easy. I take a round wire wheel to steel extensions on the end of a drill every 2 weeks, takes about 20 minutes but what a difference, espicially when the exhaust gas gets closer to condensing. When is your boiler scheduled for delivery.



Tom,
My boiler delivery is pending on Gary's schedule. I get goose bumps when I think of rolling it into its final resting place.
(Gary bolts on casters for delivery)
I have more than enough space for regular cleanings. I must admit that I'm as anal as yourself and will most likely tend
to my boiler in an obsessive way. When "the ultimate heating system" arrives I will post all my experience on a daily basis.
Although I haven't the technical back-round of some of the guys here, I do enjoy keeping tabs on data and numbers.
Thanks for the tip on the fly ash. My boiler will probably be more efficient with frequent cleanings.
I recently shared my boiler plans with a client of mine and the first question they asked was who was going to service my system....
I always assumed a bio/wood system is serviced by the end user....... anyone here have a service man????
I will start a thread on this subject.


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## Eric Johnson (Mar 21, 2008)

You're looking at the service man.

I saw the Garn on display at the NYS Farm Show and it's an impressive piece of equipment. Thinking about getting something along those lines basically custom made is quite an appealing prospect. I talked to Gary about 15 years ago when I was thinking about getting chip-burning boiler, and somebody gave me his name. Really interesting guy to talk to.

So please keep us up to date, guys, especially with some pics.


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## chrisfallis (Mar 21, 2008)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> Ed, i am finding that in the garn and probabaly most other high temp " clean burning" boilers produce a very fine fly ash that appears to be almost non existent , however even after 2 weeks the insulating factor of this ash is noticeable  in the differential temps between thermocouples. What i am suggesting is to leave plenty of access room to make frequent cleanings easy. I take a round wire wheel to steel extensions on the end of a drill every 2 weeks, takes about 20 minutes but what a difference, espicially when the exhaust gas gets closer to condensing. When is your boiler scheduled for delivery.



How easy is it to "roto-rooter" the Garn tubes?  Are there access holes in the front by the firebox and fan?  How about the rear end of the boiler where the heat exchanger tubes turn?  I would expect a draft velocity drop and subsequent ash drop at each 180 degree bend.  How does access to the heat exchangers affect the installation of your boiler? I would want to install a Garn in my garage with the butt end and chimney up against the garage wall. No room back there to swing a cat, never mind swing a wire bush on the end of a long cleaning rod.

Signed,
Curious in Colorado Springs


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## 10moreyears (Mar 21, 2008)

I would like to get an idea of how many kwh of electricity per month the draft inducer fan on the Garn WHS 1500 unit uses.  I realize that this will vary depending on how many hours the unit is run, so some idea of burn rate or heating load would be helpful.  Maybe the useful information is just how many watts the fan uses when it runs; does anybody have that information?  For those on mains power, this may not seem like a big thing, but if you are off-grid, every kwh counts.


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## antos_ketcham (Mar 21, 2008)

There was an interesting article about Outdoor Boilers (including the Garn as an alternative) in the most recent issue of Northern Woodlands Magazine. I think what I came away from the article with about the Garn at least was that the shape and size can be a challenge and that it needed to fed frequently. I have no personal experience with a Garn. Here is the article in case you are interested - 

http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/clearing_the_air_outdoor_wood_boilers_face_regulation/

This is a great magazine for those unfamiliar with it. 

Best. 

Pete


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## EForest (Mar 21, 2008)

Pete Antos-Ketcham said:
			
		

> There was an interesting article about Outdoor Boilers (including the Garn as an alternative) in the most recent issue of Northern Woodlands Magazine. I think what I came away from the article with about the Garn at least was that the shape and size can be a challenge and that it needed to fed frequently. I have no personal experience with a Garn. Here is the article in case you are interested -
> 
> http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/clearing_the_air_outdoor_wood_boilers_face_regulation/
> 
> ...



Pete,
You need to read that article again, that ONE Garn is heating 23 homes and needs to be fed 19 times a day!
If it were one home the Garn could easily go 24++ hours between burns  :smirk:


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## TCaldwell (Mar 21, 2008)

10moreyears, im no electrician but i believe that the 3/4hp single phase motor that the garn uses for draft induction, if run for a total of 6 hrs/day at 18 cents per kilowat hr costs about 72 cents per day. oh, it runs at 5.5 amps., in conjunction a taco 14 circ costs 76 cents a day running continuously, it consumes 1.45 amps or 174 watts


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## TCaldwell (Mar 21, 2008)

chris, all the garn boiler hx tubes are accessed from the front, the whole proceedure of roto-rootering with a steel wire wheel with removal and reinstall of draft inducer takes 20 minutes on the long side, also when you are done just turn the blower on to exhaust the fratz !


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## brad068 (Mar 21, 2008)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> 10moreyears, im no electrician but i believe that the 3/4hp single phase motor that the garn uses for draft induction, if run for a total of 6 hrs/day at 18 cents per kilowat hr costs about 72 cents per day. oh, it runs at 5.5 amps., in conjunction a taco 14 circ costs 76 cents a day running continuously, it consumes 1.45 amps or 174 watts



Voltage x Amps= watts. Tom is that what you are paying right now per kilowatt? I'm paying $0.096/kWh. I have a electric boiler that the electric co-op sold me for cheap 7 years ago. It is on a duel fuel setup but that rate is0.055kWh. Doesn't take long to rack up a electric bill when the boiler ratings are 240v @94amps. I'm was glad to see the electric company come around and put in new digital meters cause I thought I was going to have to put a grease cup on my old mechanical meter when the boiler was running. When I purchased the electric boiler it was @0.03kWh which wasn't to bad but the shop was only kept at 55* and the electric bill averaged $170/mo. When I get my boiler in place and everything setup, I'm going to run the electric boiler for a few weeks in the dead of winter, maintaining the same temps as the wood boiler and just see what the cost is.


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## heaterman (Mar 22, 2008)

One thing I haven't seen discussed or considered on this thread is the warranty period for the Garn vs. Switzer. I know what the Garn is but am not familiar at all with the other unit. Any knowledge?


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## EForest (Mar 22, 2008)

Gary has a 15 year warranty on his boilers per his ad.
I will let you know what exactly is in the written warranty when I receive it.


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## 10moreyears (Mar 22, 2008)

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> 10moreyears, im no electrician but i believe that the 3/4hp single phase motor that the garn uses for draft induction, if run for a total of 6 hrs/day at 18 cents per kilowat hr costs about 72 cents per day. oh, it runs at 5.5 amps., in conjunction a taco 14 circ costs 76 cents a day running continuously, it consumes 1.45 amps or 174 watts



Thank you for the response.  So about 120v X 5.5a = 660w X 6 hours/day (est.) X 30 days = 118kwh/month.  That is definitely a major consideration for off-grid solar.  Greenwood seems to be one of the few gasifiers without a required fan, but has its own set of issues.  Orlan EKO looks relatively frugal at 35w.  Good info on the circulation pump as well, I had underestimated the power required there.  All interesting issues that will take some consideration... straight wood stove(s) and/or masonry (russian) fireplace looking more likely.


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## stihlgoin (Mar 22, 2008)

gasifierwanabee said:
			
		

> Gary has a 15 year warranty on his boilers per his ad.
> I will let you know what exactly is in the written warranty when I receive it.



I'll be taking a trip to the "S" shop tomorrow, and will most likely get on the list if all looks good.  According to Gary, it sounds like I'll be using a double-wall stainless chimney i/o Isokern due to condensation considerations.

As far as off grid power is concerned, wouldn't an extra panel or two make up for any power consumed by fan(s) and pump(s)?  Especially if you're in a sunnier location than the southern tier of NY?  Wait.  Every location is sunnier than here 

Chris


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## stihlgoin (Mar 22, 2008)

Pete Antos-Ketcham said:
			
		

> There was an interesting article about Outdoor Boilers (including the Garn as an alternative) in the most recent issue of Northern Woodlands Magazine. I think what I came away from the article with about the Garn at least was that the shape and size can be a challenge and that it needed to fed frequently. I have no personal experience with a Garn. Here is the article in case you are interested -
> 
> http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/clearing_the_air_outdoor_wood_boilers_face_regulation/
> 
> ...



I just read (browsed) that article.  My wife and I used to live in Peru,NY about a decade ago.  I remember choking on the air because it was so heavy with wood smoke in the winter.  I'm pretty sure that it was before anybody in town was running an OWB, too!  Ah, the memories.......-Actually, it's home of the best apples I've ever tasted.  The guy who ran the gym I lifted at used to walk in and toss us Honey Crisp apples that were fresh from an orchard down the road.

Chris


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## 10moreyears (Mar 22, 2008)

stihlgoin said:
			
		

> gasifierwanabee said:
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## antos_ketcham (Mar 22, 2008)

gasifierwanabee said:
			
		

> Pete Antos-Ketcham said:
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Nicely spotted. I stand corrected. 

Pete


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## stihlgoin (Mar 22, 2008)

Well, after visiting Gary this morning, my wife and I are pretty much set on his 1450 gal. unit.  To heat two homes and provide domestic hot water, it would average 1 firing/day, though maybe twice/day in the coldest months.  I have a "neighbor" with this model, so I'll call him to check it out.  The other option would be to get a 1050 gal. and have a 1,000 gal. propane tank for water storage, but it would take up most of my planned shed space.  -I'd rather not build bigger due to property tax issues, so I'll most likely go with the 1450 as stated before.  It's a very intuitive unit, and has SOME built in room for tweaking WITHOUT modification.  His office unit ran very impressively, and he demonstrated how the different air variables affected the properties of the burn.   You could see and hear the fire change almost instantly when any of the air flows were changed.  Then, of course, Gary let the controls take over and you could hear the proper "roar" that came with the ideal balance of primary and secondary airflow.  You could also see the stack temp (flue) fall back into the desired range at this point.  It was good stuff, and a nice visit to boot.  I'd like to add that I'm positive a Garn would suit our needs as well, but I REALLY like to keep my business as local as possible.  So, no Garn bashing from me.  They do their job well from what I've read, just with a different method to accomodate for operator error/variation.

Chris


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## brad068 (Mar 23, 2008)

Does Gary offer the expansion tank?  If not, that could be pricey too.


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## EForest (Mar 23, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Does Gary offer the expansion tank?  If not, that could be pricey too.



It's included with every boiler Gary sells but in my install the total storage will exceed 3000 gal so I'm getting a 500 gal used propane tank for expansion.


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## brad068 (Mar 23, 2008)

Maybe I'm confused, but I thought that the whole function of a true expansion tank was to separate the atmospheric air from the expanding water with a bladder, not just a reservoir to dump excess water into and then siphon back in when it cools down. I my opinion that is a semi-closed system kind of like a coolant system on an automobile. You have to be able to separate the water from atmospheric air or the water will absorb o2 even if the reservoir tank is closed it is still filled with air that is sharing the same volume as the water. Is this right?


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## SciGuy (Mar 23, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm confused, but I thought that the whole function of a true expansion tank was to separate the atmospheric air from the expanding water with a bladder, not just a reservoir to dump excess water into and then siphon back in when it cools down. I my opinion that is a semi-closed system kind of like a coolant system on an automobile. You have to be able to separate the water from atmospheric air or the water will absorb o2 even if the reservoir tank is closed it is *still filled with air *that is sharing the same volume as the water. Is this right?



Garnification,

Over time all of the oxygen from the expansion tank will be consumed as it reacts with iron in the system. Once that is done, no further oxidation will occur unless the system has additional water added.

Hugh


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## brad068 (Mar 23, 2008)

SciGuy said:
			
		

> Garnification said:
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 If thats the case, then why do expansion tank mfgs. put bladders in them?  Like when a water well expansion tank ruptures the bladder the compressed air dissolves into the water and there becomes no room for expansion and the pressure switch starts to short cycle.
 Are you saying that after the 20 some % of o2 is consumed the 78-80% of remaining gases will fill the compression void?


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## SciGuy (Mar 23, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

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Garnification,

Your do have some valid points. Modern expansion tanks for bladders to prevent them from eventually becoming waterlogged. We use to bleed the old compression tank on our well about once ever two years. (Pre-bladder days) Plus the other gasses may well dissolve in the water over time although this happens more slowly at higher temperatures as gasses are less soluble at higher temperatures unlike most solids.

So I would agree that one would need to drain the expansion tank every so often and that would intorduce more oxigen into the system. Probably not much at all compared to a truely open system.

Hugh


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## heaterman (Mar 23, 2008)

Any and all sealed/pressurized systems require an expansion or compression type tank. Water does not compress so therefore you must provide a place for it to expand or contract based on system temperature.

As previously pointed out a system containing a couple thousand gallons of water will require a fairly large tank. My design software says that given normal parameters of fill pressure, height to the top of the system, water temp and piping you need a tank volume of over 200 gallons. 

I've noticed that some manufacturers of open OWB's are providing an internal "bladder" that compresses to help limit discharge when things heat up.


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## brad068 (Mar 23, 2008)

What I'm trying to clarify is that a true expansion tank with a bladder is needed in a sealed pressurized system to keep o2 out of the water. Even if water or air is pumped into a single chamber sealed tank only half full of either, the air will eventually dissolve into the water under pressure and the tank will in time become full of water leaving no room for further expansion. My point is that there needs to be a barrier between the air and water or it won't work.


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## SciGuy (Mar 23, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

> What I'm trying to clarify is that a true expansion tank with a bladder is needed in a sealed pressurized system to keep o2 out of the water. Even if water or air is pumped into a single chamber sealed tank only half full of either, the air will eventually dissolve into the water under pressure and the tank will in time become full of water leaving no room for further expansion. My point is that there needs to be a barrier between the air and water or it won't work.



Since we're talking sealed system, the remaining gasses have no where to go but stick around in the expansion tank. With a home water system (open system)new water is constantly passing by that can dissolve the remaining air. With a sealed boiler there is no where for the gasses to go. At higher temperatures gassse will actually come out of solution and be added to the expansion tank.

Hugh


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## brad068 (Mar 23, 2008)

But most sealed systems have a low pressure reg. that is hooked to the potable water and have air traps to remove air that comes out of suspension when heated. My feel is that the air in the non bladder tank will always become entrained in the water and removed with the air trap until all the air is gone-thus no room for expansion.

Even if the system didn't have a constant fill valve the air trap should be installed. The operator would be constantly adding water in response to the drop in pressure from the air being removed with the air trap.


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## SciGuy (Mar 23, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

> But most sealed systems have a low pressure reg. that is hooked to the potable water and have air traps to remove air that comes out of suspension when heated. My feel is that the air in the non bladder tank will always become entrained in the water and removed with the air trap until all the air is gone-thus no room for expansion.
> 
> Even if the system didn't have a constant fill valve the air trap should be installed. The operator would be constantly adding water in response to the drop in pressure from the air being removed with the air trap.



We obviously need someone with realife experience with such an animal to respond. My bet is that the losses would be very small and annual expansion tank draining would be plenty without too much oxygen added to worry about when you consider the amount of iron in the whole system.

Hugh


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## EForest (Mar 23, 2008)

It was Gary's idea to use a propane tank as my expansion. He does it often and has rarely had a problem.
He claims it will work fine as long as the expansion tank is at end of line (single pipe) with no water flow passing.
A well tank for potable water has constant flow and therefore requires the bladder. This situation was not so complicated
when speaking with Gary. I trust him and will follow his advice


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## smangold (Mar 23, 2008)

the expansion tank on the Switzer ,Ed and I looked at in Mansfield Ct. did have a bladder in Gary's own manufactured expansion tank. as for the propane tank I have no idea.


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## EForest (Mar 23, 2008)

The Mansfield boiler install is a typical one for Gary from what I understand. But he did suggest I go with the used propane tank.   I will call Gary and a few local "old school" plumbers tomorrow to clarify this and report the results. I don't want to make a mistake on 3k storage at 200* + temps.


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## heaterman (Mar 23, 2008)

Expansion tank clarification...............hopefully.

In a sealed and pressurized system one has to account for the expansion and contraction of the heated fluid be it straight water or a glycol mix. This is the sole purpose of an expansion tank. Not to capture and retain air that may be in the system piping. That air you definitely want to get out via the air scoop or air elimination device. In a captive air type tank (bladder or diaphragm) a cushion of air is maintained on one side of the membrane and system water is on the other side. These tanks can typically be of smaller volume than an "open" tank for a given total system volume.

Now...remember that the air or gas in an open style tank or compression tank if you will, consists of components other than oxygen, which is the stuff that causes corrosion. Once the oxygen is dissolved into the system and eliminated through your "air" elimination device you are left with a mostly benign mixture consisting of nitrogen and a few other inert gases.  

In a captive air type tank or true expansion type tank, there is no direct interface between the system water and the air cushion. The system water can expand against the bladder or diaphragm and keep the system pressure where it should be. These tanks must be precharged to about 2PSI less than what the system will require for operation. 

The bottom line in both cases, expansion or compression style tanks, is that their function is to maintain system pressure, not capture and/or eliminate air.


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## EForest (Mar 23, 2008)

check this out for expansion tank sizing http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/support/support_ETsizing.asp
Guess I need to make more calls Monday...


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## brad068 (Mar 24, 2008)

heaterman said:
			
		

> Expansion tank clarification...............hopefully.
> 
> In a sealed and pressurized system one has to account for the expansion and contraction of the heated fluid be it straight water or a glycol mix. This is the sole purpose of an expansion tank. Not to capture and retain air that may be in the system piping. That air you definitely want to get out via the air scoop or air elimination device. In a captive air type tank (bladder or diaphragm) a cushion of air is maintained on one side of the membrane and system water is on the other side. These tanks can typically be of smaller volume than an "open" tank for a given total system volume.
> 
> ...



 Thanks Heaterman for the facts.  I'm curious, would you use a expansion or compression in a large pressurized system?


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## heaterman (Mar 25, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

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It would depend on the various factors of the installation. An expansion tank can be mounted anywhere. On the floor, hung from the ceiling, strapped to a wall sitting on a shelf plus they will service a larger volume of water for a given physical tank size. One would want to connect it to the system at the same location as the feed water pressure reducing valve. 

A compression tank has to be mounted above the water level of the boiler for obvious reasons. Sometimes this works out really well and in many cases where we have installed a new boiler(s) in an existing system we re-use the compression tank if it's in serviceable shape. 

Then there are matters concerning ASME rating for commercial systems with large tanks (they are considered to be a pressure vessel also along with the boiler)......... So many factors, so little time.........

In most circumstances we will use an expansion style bladder or diaphragm tank.

Not needing an expansion tank or bladder of any kind is one of the nice features of a Garn.


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## stihlgoin (May 14, 2008)

Well, construction has started on my "Switzer Shed".  It'll be 18'x24' and will house a 1450 gal. Switzer boiler and anywhere from 3-6 full cords of wood.  Things got rolling quicker than I was ready for, (contractor availability) so it's been a whirlwind.  We're running Thermopex piping between the boiler and our house (75') and my inlaw's (220').  I'll post pics as they become available.  Right now, I'm waiting for the slab to be poured tomorrow, and my builders have constructed the walls already.  I'm busy dropping trees w/ new leaves so they'll dry for the next couple of months before I cut them and split them.  Fun stuff!

Chris


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## EForest (May 15, 2008)

My Switzer 3 pass 1050 w/ the two 1000 gal propane tanks was fired today for the first time. We raised the temp of all 3050 gal from 60* to 140* in just over 3 hours. Started the burn with two year seasoned splits and had no smoke out the chimney in less than 5 min. then added some two week old fresh cut and unsplit rounds to see what she could do... a little smoke and lowered stack temps but a suprisingly clean burn. Those green rounds hung around till the end even after we loaded more dry stuff an hour later so I will always try to avoid green wood. It's not worth the lost BTU's. The burn averaged @ 675,000 btu but when loaded with the dry stuff she chugged out over 850,000! IMHO the Garn is the next best thing, after a Switzer....

Next week I will try to get her up to 7 digits....


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## brad068 (May 16, 2008)

When are you guys going to post pics?  For all I know you guys could be a bunch of retired used car salesmen  
 Better than a Garn....Thats impossible!


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## smangold (May 16, 2008)

Garnification said:
			
		

> When are you guys going to post pics?  For all I know you guys could be a bunch of retired used car salesmen
> Better than a Garn....Thats impossible!


 With all do respect , I have watched a Garn burn and also now have my Switzer running.  Its not even close.


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## stihlgoin (May 16, 2008)

I have pics of  concrete forms and thermopex.  Not what anybody is dying to see yet...........


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## chrisfallis (May 16, 2008)

smangold said:
			
		

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I want a Garn in my garage so badly I can taste it. Pray, good fellow, what differences do you see between the Switzer burn and the Garn? I don't want to plop down $15K on a product and then have a Homer Simpson "Doh!" moment (with appropriate slap to the forehead) right after my installation is finished.


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## smangold (May 16, 2008)

Chris Fallis said:
			
		

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The biggest thing is a pressure system vs. non with pressure you can hit higher temps. Switzers have two speed fans.wasting less heat mid burn.Also it senses when to shut the fan off not wasting heat after the fire is off. It is just plain better , if you compared them side by side for a hour. It would be quite evident. this is not to say a Garn isn't very good . It is . I might ruffle feathers but it is simply a better system.All the little things Gary does set it apart.


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