# The Hampton HI300 just doesn't seem to be throwing enough heat.  What am I doing wrong?????????



## SherryAnn (Jan 26, 2009)

Before purchasing our Hampton HI300 wood insert, we had read many reviews singing it's praise.  We have a brand new unit, in a house which is about 1700 sqare feet, 900 on the bottom and slightly less upstairs.  In the room where the insert is, we both imagined, and heard from friends, that it would be like 85 degrees. It just isn't throwing as much heat as we thought.  Let's eliminate the obvious, we are burning very seasoned wood.  When I'm home constantly during the day, we can keep the downstairs at about 75, and I'm adding wood quite frequently.  As soon as we have only red coals, it seems to cool right down.  HELP  Also, the handle that adjusts the air flow rattles, don't you think that for $4200 installed it should rattle like a tin can?


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 26, 2009)

Let's assume the handle is supposed to rattle a little - you don't want it to bind, but it also should have some tactile feel to it, like it's actually doing something.  If you feel it isn't providing you with any actual control to the air intake, then definitely contact your dealer / installer.

If you are getting the room to 75, you must be doing some things right.  Where are you putting the air control?  Are you running it wide open the whole time trying to get the fire hotter?  If so - and you are never backing it down during the burn cycle - then that is the first place to look.  It needs to be backed down after the first 10-15 minutes of hard burning or else you just exhaust the load.

Cooling right off when it goes to coals indicates all your heat is leaving the firebox too quickly.  What is your chimney setup?  Did you put in a blockoff plate?  Full liner/cap?  Assuming this is on an exterior wall of your house, did you insulate the liner?

And finally, what is your reasoning for claiming this is very seasoned wood?  Not that it is or isn't - just curious if you've had it split & stacked for a year or more, used it in other stoves/fireplaces, have not had any hissing or steam/bubbling - or if you bought it and were told by the truck driver that "it's seasoned".  I fell prey to that one this summer

Looking fwd to hearing your responses   Good luck!


----------



## stejus (Jan 26, 2009)

I have the same stove and can tell you about my one month of experience. The first two weeks I was using OAK that had been ageing 1.5 years. It got the HI300 up to 475 degrees (reading on the mantle top) very quickly and maintained that temp for hours when I backed down the air. 

I ran out of the good aged OAK and now burning OAK that's about 7 months aged. I don't get nearly the same reading. I can get to 400 after leaving the air open much longer. I can't back it down as early or as quick so alot of the heat is going up the flue. 

Make sure you have the blower turned on auto when burning with air. Fully dampered down (long slow burn) you should not use the blower.

My flex liner is not insulated and I have a makeshift soft blockoff plate. This will all be fixed in the spring.

Next burn season will be much better as I have next years wood stacked and the flex pipe will be insulated.

Good luck.


----------



## Chettt (Jan 26, 2009)

How old is the house and what kind of windows and how much attic insulation do you have? If your room cools quickly it probably isn't the stove. Also do you have a temperature gauge for the front of the stove and how hot does it get? If it gets up to 500 degrees, the stove is doing its part.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 26, 2009)

I'm starting to think I have installation problems.....here's the story.
I load it up in the morning when there's a nice bed of burning coal.  I leave the door slightly open until everything inside is burning, then I close it up and leave the air fully open for another 15 mins or so, then I back it down halfway until for another few minutes, maybe 5-10, then almost completely shut for the remainder.  I have the rutland thermometer on the front, i"ve tried it in several places, always seems to read the same.  I have NEVER seen it get above 400 degrees, and that is rare.  It is usually at 250 or 300, barely in the burn zone.  Why doesn't it get hot?  We have been running the fan on high constantly, and if we shut it off, we feel little heat at all.  
The chimney is exterior, as you suggested, we had a full stainless steel liner installed, I am pretty sure there was no insulation.  I'will call him and check (the installer)
We did get two chords of wood that definately were unseasoned (although he claimed it was)  It would catch, we could tell it wasn't burning well.  Now we have two chords more that are cracked on the sides, and burn nicely with no hissing or popping.  Some pieces are nice and gray,(pieces on top?) others are not, but all are cracked.  They feel pretty light and make that hollow sound if you drop on on a pile of them.  Are we on the right track?
I can not tell you how happy I am to have some help, we have been VERY frustrated.  I want to be running around in shorts like everyone else!1


----------



## stejus (Jan 26, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> I'm starting to think I have installation problems.....here's the story.
> I load it up in the morning when there's a nice bed of burning coal. I leave the door slightly open until everything inside is burning, then I close it up and leave the air fully open for another 15 mins or so, then I back it down halfway until for another few minutes, maybe 5-10, then almost completely shut for the remainder. I have the rutland thermometer on the front, i"ve tried it in several places, always seems to read the same. I have NEVER seen it get above 400 degrees, and that is rare. It is usually at 250 or 300, barely in the burn zone. Why doesn't it get hot? We have been running the fan on high constantly, and if we shut it off, we feel little heat at all.
> The chimney is exterior, as you suggested, we had a full stainless steel liner installed, I am pretty sure there was no insulation. I'will call him and check (the installer)
> We did get two chords of wood that definately were unseasoned (although he claimed it was) It would catch, we could tell it wasn't burning well. Now we have two chords more that are cracked on the sides, and burn nicely with no hissing or popping. Some pieces are nice and gray,(pieces on top?) others are not, but all are cracked. They feel pretty light and make that hollow sound if you drop on on a pile of them. Are we on the right track?
> I can not tell you how happy I am to have some help, we have been VERY frustrated. I want to be running around in shorts like everyone else!1



Move your Rutland on top of the mantle like shown in this pic. This pic was taken without my surround pieces attached. Make sure your blower is off. Get the reading right before you can close it down. With dry wood, you should be getting close to 500 degrees and your secondary burn should be dancing around.

If you are not getting this type of reading, you may have too much draft in your chimney or you're loosing a lot of heat up the clay liner. I didn't see you mention a block off plate. If you don't have one, just stuff some insulation inbetween the liner and damper plate (known as soft blockoff plate). Look into getting that sealed shut and insulated later this spring.


----------



## woodgeek (Jan 26, 2009)

Perhaps you are shutting it down early or not really stuffing the box?  I tend to look at these things mathematically.  If you know how much wood you loading in, figure ~4,000 BTUs per pound total heat output, divided by the length of your burns to get average BTU/hr.  If that BTU/hr is anywhere close to the full demand of your house (assuming you have an open plan, open doors and heat rises) then you will def have a hard time getting to 85F!  You can always close some doors to make your living room a sauna when the mood strikes.  IF your estimated output, however, is well above what your house requires, then indeed, you are missing some BTUs.

So, the other part is estimating your house BTU demand....
First, figure the nominal output of your central heater (usually on a label).  IF you can time the on/off cycles of your furnace when the wood stove is cold (and hopefully when the sun is not shining in the windows), you can figure your demand at a given outside temp.  

For example, my boiler puts out 110,000 BTU/hr, and runs about 40% of the time when its in the teens outside, so my demand is 44,000 BTU/hr. I would need to burn wood at an average rate of 11 lbs/hour just to keep up (probably more like 15 lbs/hr with my low eff POS stove).

Hope this helps....


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 26, 2009)

I worry with the statements that your Rutland should be reading over 400 close to 500. If you get to 450-500 I think your probably overfiring. 375-400 IMO is about as high as you want to go. I could be wrong but at 400 my tubes were red. And with my experience with this stove you have to stuff the box with as much wood as possible before shutting the air down. I stack larger spilts on the bottom and then smaller ones under the tubes. I can tell you that I get my livingroom where the stoves at up to 83-85 degrees. Upstairs stays between 69-73. Two story house 2300sqft.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 26, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> I'm starting to think I have installation problems.....here's the story.
> I load it up in the morning when there's a nice bed of burning coal.  I leave the door slightly open until everything inside is burning, then I close it up and leave the air fully open for another 15 mins or so, then I back it down halfway until for another few minutes, maybe 5-10, then almost completely shut for the remainder.  I have the rutland thermometer on the front, i"ve tried it in several places, always seems to read the same.  I have NEVER seen it get above 400 degrees, and that is rare.  It is usually at 250 or 300, barely in the burn zone.  *Why doesn't it get hot?*  We have been running the fan on high constantly, and if we shut it off, we feel little heat at all.
> The chimney is exterior, as you suggested, we had a full stainless steel liner installed, I am pretty sure there was no insulation.  I'will call him and check (the installer)
> We did get two chords of wood that definately were unseasoned (although he claimed it was)  It would catch, we could tell it wasn't burning well.  Now we have two chords more that are cracked on the sides, and burn nicely with no hissing or popping.  Some pieces are nice and gray,(pieces on top?) others are not, but all are cracked.  They feel pretty light and make that hollow sound if you drop on on a pile of them.  Are we on the right track?
> I can not tell you how happy I am to have some help, we have been VERY frustrated.  I want to be running around in shorts like everyone else!1



I can feel the frustration here!  :grrr:  To answer your (highlighted) question - you're making plenty of heat - it's all going up your flue!! 

Seriously - your wood and burn practices do sound good.  A couple follow-on questions that still need addressing:

You are getting good secondary burns, right?  or do they disappear after just a few minutes?

How tall is that chimney/liner?  if it's really tall, you may want to look into some way to add a flue damper to your system - possibly a tall order for an insert...

Have you looked up into the top of your stove and observed the tubes baffle plate, etc are intact, in proper place, etc?  (someone experienced with Hi300 pls step in here)  If you have a baffle plate that has shifted fwd, that will let heat escape right up the flue, as opposed to keeping those high-temp combustion gases lingering a little longer in the stove (thereby heating IT up more).

Good luck SherryAnn!


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 26, 2009)

I have a question that pertains to the thread.  Last week I had a Hampton i300 installed with a full SS liner.  I have had several fires but I have not gotten the heat I thought I would.  I get the fire hot enough to get secondaries but they seem to stop after a few minutes if I shut the air down completely.  As I was coming home yesterday I noticed that I still had my old chimney topper which is basically used to keep out the birds and has a solid "roof" to keep out the rain.  There is no damper per se to restrict the draft.

Do I need to put in a different top to help slow the draft some and therefore maintain more heat in the firebox?  I called the guys who installed it and they said what I had  should be fine.

Thought?


----------



## stejus (Jan 26, 2009)

cocey2002 said:
			
		

> I worry with the statements that your Rutland should be reading over 400 close to 500. If you get to 450-500 I think your probably overfiring. 375-400 IMO is about as high as you want to go. I could be wrong but at 400 my tubes were red. And with my experience with this stove you have to stuff the box with as much wood as possible before shutting the air down. I stack larger spilts on the bottom and then smaller ones under the tubes. I can tell you that I get my livingroom where the stoves at up to 83-85 degrees. Upstairs stays between 69-73. Two story house 2300sqft.



I agree with the loading up the HI300 and then shutting down the air.  If you don't load it up, you will get less heat btu's.   To get the most heat, I do the same as cocey2002.  Rake as many of the coals forward. Lay three large splits on the bottom, two smaller splits on top of these, and then fill the remaining with small rounds.  Basically you want to stuff as much wood in there as you can.  If you do this and run it 1/2 shut down, you should get around 5 hours of good heat.  If you totally shut down as I do at around 9:00PM, I still have a good coal bed in the back of the stove in the morning around 6:00AM.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 26, 2009)

cocey2002, How often do you add wood.  I stuffed mine at 10:30 this morning, when I came back at 2:40, the house was cold and all there was in the stove was red coal covered in ash, i couldn't see the coal until I moved it around.  I have to me home to keep the house warm.

I loaded it up, let it run 1/2 hour wide open and thermometer still reads only 250.  Could that be broken too?  I'm thinking there's a hex on me!

I have a call into my installer, I don't know much about the installation, I'm embarrased to admit, because I thought I'd hired a professional who would do it right.  Silly me for trusting.  I should have known when it wasn't level when first installed that something was up, we couldn't leave the door ajar without it falling open.   On the  receipt all it said was 'installation with a 6" stainless steel liner system $1200.  It took him about 3 hours to install.  That's a good pay rate!  I'm scared we got rooked!  As for looking up into the stove, everything looks fine.  I think the Chimney is about 30 feet.  I am so new at this and there seem to be so many variables.   Th


----------



## stejus (Jan 26, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> cocey2002, How often do you add wood.  I stuffed mine at 10:30 this morning, when I came back at 2:40, the house was cold and all there was in the stove was red coal covered in ash, i couldn't see the coal until I moved it around.  I have to me home to keep the house warm.
> 
> I loaded it up, let it run 1/2 hour wide open and thermometer still reads only 250.  Could that be broken too?  I'm thinking there's a hex on me!
> 
> I have a call into my installer, I don't know much about the installation, I'm embarrased to admit, because I thought I'd hired a professional who would do it right.  Silly me for trusting.  I should have known when it wasn't level when first installed that something was up, we couldn't leave the door ajar without it falling open.   On the  receipt all it said was 'installation with a 6" stainless steel liner system $1200.  It took him about 3 hours to install.  That's a good pay rate!  I'm scared we got rooked!  As for looking up into the stove, everything looks fine.  I think the Chimney is about 30 feet.  I am so new at this and there seem to be so many variables.   Th



You may be overfiring if you let it run wide open for 1/2 hour.  I have the benefit of seeing my stove pipe because my surround peices are not on yet (due to missing part). If I let it go longer than 10 or 15 minutes, my flex liner starts to get red.   You should start shutting down in stages as soon as all wood has started to char and flame.  The sooner you close it down, the more heat builds it the stove.   Leaving it run wide open this long runs the risk of overfiring and heat up your liner and less sustained heat.   

Questions: How cold is it where you are?   How open/closed is your floor plan?   How high are your ceilings?  What is the temp at the ceiling level vs seat level. What type of wood are you burning?    

I just installed a ceiling fan in my kitchen because the ceiling was 78/80 degrees.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 26, 2009)

You need the installer to come out and/or talk some more about the installation.  I'm very willing to bet you didn't get a blockoff plate above the firebox - it's extra work, you can't see it, and it's just easier for any installer not to do.  Having one is highly recommended.  And with an exterior chimney, it should be an insulated liner - not just a bare SS tube in your masonry flue.

The bigger thing (IMO) is to try and get a damper into that flue right above the stove.  Maybe there is some way they can put a long arm on it thru the front surround plate, or maybe Hampton sells a kit you could use?  30 feet of 6" liner - that's a LOT of suction pulling the heat out of the box.  I have only a little more than that and I'm doomed without my damper.  (Edit: see Stejus' comments above re: glowing red liner.  He's describing doing what you are - sending all the heat right up the flue.)

Not calling your installer bad or lazy - a lot of times these guys think they're doing it right but they just don't really know better.  But you have 3 things now (insulation, blockoff plate, and flue damper) that you really need to discuss...  And don't accept "they never need that!" for an answer - if you weren't having problems, you wouldn't be banging on the door, right??

At the very least, get your Professional Installer to come out and get your insert thermometer to 500*F.  (without using dynamite)


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 26, 2009)

stejus said:
			
		

> SherryAnn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 26, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> You need the installer to come out and/or talk some more about the installation.  I'm very willing to bet you didn't get a blockoff plate above the firebox - it's extra work, you can't see it, and it's just easier for any installer not to do.  Having one is highly recommended.  And with an exterior chimney, it should be an insulated liner - not just a bare SS tube in your masonry flue.
> 
> The bigger thing (IMO) is to try and get a damper into that flue right above the stove.  Maybe there is some way they can put a long arm on it thru the front surround plate, or maybe Hampton sells a kit you could use?  30 feet of 6" liner - that's a LOT of suction pulling the heat out of the box.  I have only a little more than that and I'm doomed without my damper.  (Edit: see Stejus' comments above re: glowing red liner.  He's describing doing what you are - sending all the heat right up the flue.)
> 
> ...



I told him (the installer)  that the thermometer wasn't registering very high, he said I should call hampton and ask them about a thermometer, he knew nothing about it. He doesn't actually burn wood in his house, maybe that should have been my first question when hiring someone. I did  call hampton and they told me that they don't work on this type stove, so not to bother.  he said they belong on the pipe of a wood stove.  Why am I getting such ridiculous answers??????????  The people at Hampton DON't seem to want to talk customers, the one conversation I had was nothing compared to the help you all have given me.  I even tried a few emails.  When they get back to you, maybe a week later, they give a short answer and direct you to your installer.  

So how often should I be adding wood?  Now I've been up and running full force for 1 1/2 hours and I already have absolutely no flames at all in the stove.  This is when I want to shove more wood in, but it seems like I've lost flames too soon.........


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 26, 2009)

I take that back, when I got down on the floor and looked in the back of the stove, I have some blue slowly dancing flames in the rear of the firebox.  Is this secondary burn?


----------



## stejus (Jan 26, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> stejus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 26, 2009)

Running full force?  wide open?  if so - not good!

Another thing i didn't pick up on fully before - you exhausted a full load in 4 hours from load to cold.  That's way too fast.  It really sounds like you have good wood here (and it would be helpful if you can confirm you are NOT getting hissing or water bubbles from the ends of your splits!)  You are just getting way too much draft and need to slow that baby down.

So here's my thought - a couple of them in fact:

1 - try backing it down sooner, and get yourself to about ~1/8 open on the primary within 15 minutes, and see what that gets you.  Don't shut it all the way - just leave it there - you might be surprised.  You need to aim AWAY from your current experiences (short-lived, overdrafting, hot fires w/ all heat going right up the flue) and aim FOR longer lasting, more restricted, better-contained fires.  Raging tall flames?  NO.  Lazy secondaries dancing on the top of your firebox?  BINGO.  Look up "secondary burn" on youtube - lots of folks post vids of good secondaries.

2 - suck it up and find yourself a new installer.  This area is rife with them - someone with some solid experience needs to look at this thing.  Sorry you may have invested in the wrong horse here, but you DO have a good machine regardless - now you just need to find the right mechanic to tune it up and make it purr for you.


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 26, 2009)

Ok- here is what I typically do when I get home from work at 3:00. Stuff as much wood in and run wide open for about an hour. Throw a couple more splits in and then wait about 20 minutes and close a quarter of the way. Wait another hour and then a few more small splits and close to about 35%. After about 3 hours my downstairs is over 80 degrees. I then let it get down to a nice coal bed and then load it up around 9:00 and run it half way. I wake up at 4:00 am and I have a few coals left to stuff her before I go to work. For longer burn time I put the splits in horizontal. Faster quick fires vertical. I run the fan on high through the switch. It usually kicks on around 200 degrees. 
On colder nights I do the same but I turn the fan off until the temps are over 350. At that point I turn the fan on high and then cut the air to around 40%.


----------



## stejus (Jan 26, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> I have a question that pertains to the thread.  Last week I had a Hampton i300 installed with a full SS liner.  I have had several fires but I have not gotten the heat I thought I would.  I get the fire hot enough to get secondaries but they seem to stop after a few minutes if I shut the air down completely.  As I was coming home yesterday I noticed that I still had my old chimney topper which is basically used to keep out the birds and has a solid "roof" to keep out the rain.  There is no damper per se to restrict the draft.
> 
> Do I need to put in a different top to help slow the draft some and therefore maintain more heat in the firebox?  I called the guys who installed it and they said what I had  should be fine.
> 
> Thought?



I would say no and here's the reason.  My sweep recommended putting on a hood as you described.   He doesn't like the caps (the one I have) because they tend to clog up and reduce draft.  I only went with the cap because it came free with the liner and I know the sweep will be back in the sring to insulate the liner.  At that point, I am taking my cap off and installing a full hood over the entire chimney (two flues).

If you shut it down too soon, this will happen.  You should shut down in 3 or 4 stages.  For my overnight burn, I let it rip for about 15 minutes and start to close it down in 4 stages to a complete shut down in about a half hour to 45 minutes.

Do you have a block off plate or insulation around your damper where the flex liner passes through?

Is your chimney capped at the top of the clay liner?


----------



## iceman (Jan 26, 2009)

ok many good suggestions here but lets back up

stove is not throwing heat because ....... everything is going up your chimney, exterior chiminey , no block off plate .. might not be insulated all bad 
also your wood isn't that seasoned some of it may be but majority prolly isn't..... not good but can be dealt with
 question... when your stove is barely burning can you feel cool air from behind it?  when the stove is not burning (no fire) do you feel cold air from the back or around the sides?  if so its prolly coming down your chimney... not good but block off plate will help/stop it 
now place your thermometer where the pic in the earlier post has it... get a fire going and leave the air till you get a good fire going the go to half way... do this with only a couple of splits ... leave it there and monitor the temp don't worry about the stove temp as it won't overfire.. but let it go until its all hot coals... then load up the stove and repeat but after getting the stove hot close it down gently   don't leave the stove at the half way point forever watch the fire and you will be able to tell when to start closing it down..   my stove hits 700 almost everyday for a little bit so don't panic


----------



## burntime (Jan 26, 2009)

I agree, problem with wood.  I have the same stove, insulated liner in interior chimney.  I have yet to hit 400.  250 to 350 is fine, remember you are not measuring the firebox, rather the air coming out!  You will find the sweet spot on your control to find out how far you can choke it down.  Mine without the insuated liner was closed and then opened an inch to inch and a half.  Now that I insulated the liner and block off plate, good wood, got it dialed, I close it all the way down.  You will find the sweet spot will change with the tempature of the outdoors.  You will be able to damper it down more the colder it is.  This will make sense in a month or two of use.  Go buy some expensive grocery store wood.  I bet you get good and hot.  You will need 2 bundles to fill it up.  You will be able to choke it down to the sweet spot anytime your top reads 200 or better +/- so as you learn the stove it will be easy!  This is assuming your wood is properly seasoned.  Good luck!


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 26, 2009)

Just a quick reminder that our Hampton will not measure temps very well. Most of us put the Rutlind on the shelf and aim for over 300 degrees. At 300 degrees you are probably around 550 degrees measured on other stoves.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 26, 2009)

Iceman,   See this is the problem, my thermometer NEVER reads over 300, I think we got it to 350 once by repeatedly stacking it as soon as we had only red coals.  If I did that all the time, I'd have to put wood in it every two hours or so.   Then I end up at the end of the day with a stove full of semi hot coals that need to burn down, which takes hours and the whole house gets cold.  Maybe my thermometer is broken?????????  I have that same one in the picture and that is where I have kept it all day, previously I had it on the door.  Doesn't really matter, always reads the same almost nothing!  There is definately something wrong.  The installer hasn't called me back yet.  There is a huge space between the unit and the fireplace at the top, I know there is no way around this since it is made from rocks which are uneven.  I asked him if any air would come in through the space and he said it was sealed off with cement, but I have no idea where.  Is this what you are referring to?  Again thanks so much.  I've really spent most of the day trying to figure this out, actually most of the past six weeks!  I'd like to think I'm faily intelligent, it's only FIRE, so I do think something is wrong.


----------



## burntime (Jan 26, 2009)

Set your stove to 300, put your thermometer in there, if it reads 300 or there abouts its good.  Next, go to the grocery store and buy 2 bundles of wood.  Third drink an adult beverage of your choice and burn the wood.  Your problem will be solved.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 27, 2009)

Ah, yes, adult beverages do take the edge off.....the installer called me back, he said he doesn't think he did install a block plate and the liner is not insulated.  He is coming back to do both those things.  I am praying that we see a huge difference once we have done this.  I am suffering from information overload!  Thanks to all who took the time to help me figure this out.  It's very frustrating to have spent so much money and be getting optimal results.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 27, 2009)

Sherry - I think you can rule out a bad thermometer.  You're cold.  Stove feels cold.  Thermometer says stove is cold.  I hear ducks quacking...

I genuinely do consider the wood a suspect.  But.  I KNOW I have crappy wood, and I still manage to get along.  I'll recommend this tho for you - let's rule out the wood.  Get yourself some confirmed good fuel.  This can come from:

1 - those grocery store bundles
2 - a friend or relative who burns wood and has a roasty-toasty house
3 - finding a good supplement product to add to your fires (I use EcoFirelogs - 1 per reload - and I'm staring at a 500+ fire (soapstone stovetop, the flue is at ~750 gas temp) using barely-seasoned red oak that I chipped ICE off of this weekend.)

There's lots of ways to get crummy wood to burn hot.  You're also finding that there's lots of ways to lose your heat - sounds great that your installer has agreed to come help make things right.  After the install, hopefully he will be willing to work w/ you (despite his apparent lack of burning prowess) to ensure you are able to get the stove temps you desire.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 27, 2009)

I said I was done, but I kept at it.  We looked at YouTube to find some bits on secondary burn.  There were two showing the exact stove we have and we are NOT getting a secondary burn anything like the video shown, and now we know exactly what we should be seeing.  Why would we not be seeing a secondary burn?  I looked up inside and everything looks fine.  The four tubes look fine, and all I can see is what looks like cinder blocks on top.  Why no secondary burn?


----------



## burntime (Jan 27, 2009)

If your wood is not seasoned ALL THE WAY then there is moisture in it.  THe heat is used to heat the moisture and get it out of the chimney.  It also cools the firebox.  The first time you get secondary burn you are gonna want to grab the extinguisher...you will know when you have liftoff! :lol:


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 27, 2009)

if you don't get the fuel and firebox hot enough, you won't get secondary burn.  See how "lazy" those secondaries are?  you have to get the fire to linger in the firebox.  lingering flames = hot fire.

One explanation is that you are overdrafting - the aforementioned fixes should help that, and if you can somehow find a way to cobble together a flue damper then holy hand-grenade, batman - you'll be burnin' something fierce.  (like seriously - watch for overfiring)

But another explanation - which i'm beginning to agree more with - is your wood.  I can't recall - you get hissing or not?  you mentioned a little blue flame - that's a classic sign of unseasoned and/or wet oak.  unseasoned, wet wood really, really wants you to believe it's dry and seasoned.  It does.  It'll do everything it can to convince you it's dry and seasoned.  it'll clink instead of clunk, it'll check on the ends and turn a nice silvery grey...  but...  the truth is in the burn.  and you may be seeing that.

the fact that it sounds like you are making big, raging fires that fail to heat the box up - that makes me think the wood is fine, and the stove is just massively overdrafting.

i can flip-flop on this all night for you...  rule out what you can rule out   i'm hooked now - i need to see how this resolves itself 

(it's like soap operas for engineers...  who shot JR?  Where did the secondaries go?  Why does water bubble out of seasoned wood?)


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 27, 2009)

Edthedawg,  I didn't know that wood could be deceptive.....we are not getting any hissing.  An occasional pop with certain pieces that may have just a small amount of ice on them.This is happening just this week with a load that was just dropped off. It snowed a bit while it was loaded in his truck.  We take in three days of wood at a time and stack it all in a holder right next to the fireplace so that any ice that was on it dries off.  I asked the installer about a flue damper, and he said it is difficult to do with an insert, and also said he didn't think it was necessary.  He is coming on Friday morning to insulate and put in a block plate. (which he said he was pretty sure he didn't do, how could you not know?)  We'll assess again after that and see if we're still having problems.  The wood we used in the very beginning was VERY dry, we know this since it was in our yard for about three years all stacked in the sun.  We covered it long before we got the insert in anticipation.  The insert was supposed to be installed on Halloween and wasn't in until Dec 12th. Even with that dry wood we weren't burning that hot.  I am trying to get those lazy flames, even with it entirely closed, I still can't get them, the flames move quickly.  I will keep you posted, I'll let you know on friday what happened.  I am DETERMINED to get this figured out and fixed.  This spring we will be building a wood shelter without a doubt 
Why doesn't the picture I downloaded show next to my post like yours?


----------



## stejus (Jan 27, 2009)

SherryAnn

Secondary burns on the HI300 are achievable, you'll get there. Try this during your next load of wood. Let most of the fire burn down until you get a nice bed of hot coals. Rake as many of the coals forward toward the front of the stove. Leave about 1" of ash on the stove floor in the back. 

Take three large splits and lay them on the stove floor in a North/South direction (front to back orientation). Take two more good size splits and lay them on top the the first three splits. Now take smaller splits or small rounds and fill in as may gaps as you can. Your goal is to fill up the stove a much as possible. Don't be afraid to touch the secondary tubes with wood as the wood will shrink during the burn.

Now, shut the door and run the air wide open for 10 or 15 minutes. You want all the wood to be flaming real hard and you should have charring on all the wood before you start to shut down.

Shut down in the following stages to get a 10 hour burn.  This means there are hot coals left in 10 hours to restart your fire. These are guideline's for a long slow burn. The time between intervals may be more or less with each load of wood. If you shut down too fast, you'll loose flame and you are suffocating the fire.  If this happens, start over wide open to get draft moving again.  Keep in mind, a slow burn will not generate the most heat, but it will last the longest.

10 to 15 minutes - wide open
wait 10 minutes and shut another 1"
wait 10 minutes and shut another 1"
wait 10 minutes and shut another 1"
wait 10 minute shut down completly. 

During the shut down, you should see your stove temp climb to 300-350 and your wood still burning hard. At this point, the secondary burn should be active and the load of wood should be glowing red. If you look up at the tubes, they may be glowing red and you should also see little to large balls of fire moving from the top of the stove towards to glass. Think of smoke lingering in the box and then igniting. If you don't see this by now, this could mean your stove is not getting hot enough to support secondary burns which could be one of the following.

1. Wood is too wet. (if your wood is dry, it should catch right away and not take long to get totally going).
2. Too much draft in stove pipe and gases and heat are escaping up the pipe.

Note: If you want more heat and less duration, keep the air half way open following the same shut down pattern and the wood will burn hotter, but also faster. You should also see the secondary burn doing this.

Keep us posted.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 27, 2009)

Stejas -The manual said to always leave a bit open when running the fan, do you keep it open?  What is a Flex liner?


----------



## burntime (Jan 27, 2009)

Stejus, why go thru all that work.  Put the thermometer on the top, when it hits 200 choke it down to your sweet spot.  Mine pre insulated liner was closed and then opened and inch or so, with the insulated liner I choke it all the way down.  I cleaned the chimney before the season started and checked it 2 weeks ago...still clean.


----------



## stejus (Jan 27, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Stejas -The manual said to always leave a bit open when running the fan, do you keep it open?  What is a Flex liner?



Do not run blower if you close down completly.  You can run blower if you are not totally shut down.  The flex liner is the stove pipe that runs from the stove all the way up to the top of the chimney.  It's just a flexable liner.


----------



## burntime (Jan 27, 2009)

I do with mine all the time.  I have read the manual.  Uninsulated I agree, once you insulate the liner you wake the beast!


----------



## oconnor (Jan 27, 2009)

I hear folks talking about using temps to tell them when to adjust the air - how's about using the big window on the front of the stove?

Bottom line is, you can only adjust the air down until you don't have good combustion - temps are going to lag, so watch the actual flame in the firebox.  Keep them bright yellow and full.  Use the thermometer like your report card, vice an instruction manual - if you adjust for good flame, the thermometer will eventually tell you that you did a good job, but the flame will show it first. 

There are so many variables - wet wood, draft, house insulation, operator skill, experience with the specific stove - really hard to figure out. Yes, cutting the air down can increase burn time and heat output, but lets walk before we run - lets get the stove to burn hot first.

So, head towards the light, I mean flame, in the firebox, as your indicator of when to turn the air down.  If the flame dies, turn it back up again.  As themometer increases, repeat cycle, using flame characteristics as the guide, and warm toes as the reward.


----------



## stejus (Jan 27, 2009)

burntime said:
			
		

> Stejus, why go thru all that work.  Put the thermometer on the top, when it hits 200 choke it down to your sweet spot.  Mine pre insulated liner was closed and then opened and inch or so, with the insulated liner I choke it all the way down.  I cleaned the chimney before the season started and checked it 2 weeks ago...still clean.



My liner is not insulated yet.  I can chock it down all the way, but it takes time (like 45 minutes).  Are you saying once I get the liner insulated, I can close it faster?


----------



## burntime (Jan 27, 2009)

That is exactly what I am saying.  I don't even open the damper all the way for startup when its 20 degrees or less.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 27, 2009)

[Do not run blower if you close down completly.  You can run blower if you are not totally shut down.  The flex liner is the stove pipe that runs from the stove all the way up to the top of the chimney.  It's just a flexable liner.[/quote]

Why is flexible better?


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 27, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Edthedawg,  I didn't know that wood could be deceptive.....we are not getting any hissing.  An occasional pop with certain pieces that may have just a small amount of ice on them.This is happening just this week with a load that was just dropped off. It snowed a bit while it was loaded in his truck.  We take in three days of wood at a time and stack it all in a holder right next to the fireplace so that any ice that was on it dries off.  I asked the installer about a flue damper, and he said it is difficult to do with an insert, and also said he didn't think it was necessary.  He is coming on Friday morning to insulate and put in a block plate. (which he said he was pretty sure he didn't do, how could you not know?)  We'll assess again after that and see if we're still having problems.  The wood we used in the very beginning was VERY dry, we know this since it was in our yard for about three years all stacked in the sun.  We covered it long before we got the insert in anticipation.  The insert was supposed to be installed on Halloween and wasn't in until Dec 12th. Even with that dry wood we weren't burning that hot.  I am trying to get those lazy flames, even with it entirely closed, I still can't get them, the flames move quickly.  I will keep you posted, I'll let you know on friday what happened.  I am DETERMINED to get this figured out and fixed.  This spring we will be building a wood shelter without a doubt
> Why doesn't the picture I downloaded show next to my post like yours?



Well I had a whole post put together and then lost it, so here goes my retype...  No hissing = good.  Your wood seasoning and storage sounds great.  Do you maybe have some moisture issues?  Probably but I doubt they are the real killer here.  

I read your install manual online (http://www.regency-fire.com/TechDocuments/Manuals/918-240.pdf) - doesn't give a max chimney height.  On my Hearthstone, it's 30' max and I'm over.  The damper helps immensely - I wouldn't be able to run without it - it's that simple.  I would have the same conditions you are reporting:  fast, tall, raging, but ultimately COLD fires...  Yes it's difficult to install - esp on an insert.  But you should see what can be done - I strongly believe this will help you.  Perhaps there's a way you could get a small slot/lever or hole/handle added without too much disruption to the look of your stove.

Two items from the manual that struck me:  

1 - The baffles are two shiplapped pieces.  Not only do they need to be resting on the tubes and hard against the back surface of the firebox, *you also have to make sure they are slid outward as far as they can go.*  This seems like an easy one to miss or disrupt during loads!  The right side plate should be hard against the right side of the box, and the left plate similarly against the left edge of the box.  If you have gaps, then you are getting gases bypassing the baffle and that is definitely a cause for concern!

2 - for premanufactured chimneys, the manual mandates a full liner, w/ blockoff plate.  You probably have a more conventional old-school setup, but on the off-chance this is like what you have, it sounds like the things he is going to add are mandatory and should help immensely.

And of course, i'm still interested in what might happen if you tried a supplementing product.  But again - really feels like your setup and not necessarily your practices...


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 27, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Why is flexible better?



Flex is the standard - chimneys routinely have turns or edges or things that the liner needs to run past as it is installed.  Plus being flex, it coils up nice for shipping.  It'd be tough to ship or install a 30 foot long rigid pipe, doncha think? 

Seriously - they do chimneys in rigid sections where they can be held and supported and are exposed.  Inside a brick chimney flue?  Way cheaper and easier to just drop a flex liner in and forget it...

http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/lining_a_chimney.html seems to have some good detailed text and pix/figures...


----------



## stejus (Jan 27, 2009)

Here are a few pic's of flex liner install...  Do you know if your liner looks like this and is all the way up to the top of your chimney?  If you look at the top of your chimney, is there a plate that seals off the top and the pipe goes through it?


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 27, 2009)

I was imagining it to be a bunch of stiff 5 foot pieces that fit together, I don't know why.  Okay, I looked up into the stove and this is what I saw, the four tubes are there  east to west and there are two pieces on top that fit together in the center like a puzzle actually looks like tetrus, remember that?  Do you mean that the two of these should be pushed together as close as possible because it sound like you meant pushed apart....I'm confused.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 27, 2009)

Go to your manual (ref: http://www.regency-fire.com/TechDocuments/Manuals/918-240.pdf), turn to page 21, bottom center of the page.

See the two baffle plates sort of interlock?  that's called a shiplap joint.  you then want the plates pushed APART so there is no gap around them.  they're supposed to allow combustion gases to only go one direction: forward (i.e. towards you).  The overlapping shiplap joint prevents any gases from going up the center, so long as the plates are both sitting flush on top of the tubes.  If there's a big gap in the middle, then I'd recommend you take some photos and post them for us to look at.

to quote:  "Important: push both baffles [apart] so they are tight against the side walls."

The shiplap is just there to facilitate installing each plate separately and then rocking them down into place on top of the tubes.  On my Heritage, it's a solid plate, just due to the different fireboxes...


----------



## stejus (Jan 27, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> I was imagining it to be a bunch of stiff 5 foot pieces that fit together, I don't know why. Okay, I looked up into the stove and this is what I saw, the four tubes are there east to west and there are two pieces on top that fit together in the center like a puzzle actually looks like tetrus, remember that? Do you mean that the two of these should be pushed together as close as possible because it sound like you meant pushed apart....I'm confused.



Pushed out towards the side walls of the stove. Also, make sure they are pushed back as far as they can go. The objective is to make the three sides (two sides and rear wall) blocked off. You want all the smoke/gases to migrate towards the front of the stove. 

It's pretty neat to watch the flames find there way around the baffle. Look up into the stove when it's really burning well. You will see flames wrap around the baffle in the front and up into the stove flue collar.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 27, 2009)

It's up against both the sides and the back.  I have some pretty lazy flames right now, I'm about 2 hours into a full burn.  I also just brought my thermometer back to the store I bought it from.  She looked at the back and said it was definately broken so I have a new one now.  As far as temp vs. watching flames, I think you are both right.  I think that once you are good at it, you can observe just flames, but when your a virgin like me, you need the thermometer to verify that you are where you want to be.  I just stuck it on when I started typing and it is still only at 250 right now.  I have lazy flames, but they are mostly little and blue.  So is it my wood?  Someone said blue=not seasoned in one of the previous 50 posts!  I am going to have to sit down and read these all again.  I tried to get a look at my chimney, I can't really see anything from way down here.  "Hey kids, hold the ladder so it doesn't slide on the ice." didn't seem smart!


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 28, 2009)

Hey Sherryann, Stuff that sucker full with wood. I always keep an axe by my woodpile to split some wood into smaller pieces. Leave the air wide open for 20-30 minutes. If the fan comes on turn it on low. After 20-30 minutes your wood should be burning great. Try backing the air down an inch or so. I hear a whistle type noise start when I do this. Try getting your temps up to 300-350. Once at 350 back it down another inch or more and turn fan on high. If you can't get these types of temps with this procedure your wood isn't seasoned well enough. If you hit 350 you are really cooking. My LR is 84 degrees as we speak.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

Sherry Ann

You have a schizophrenic stove here.  Sometimes it burns like wildfire and runs thru a full load in under 4 hours.  Other times it only gives you little blue flames.  And neither condition results in you heating your house.

This points to Everything.  I still think overdraft is your biggest problem, and I'm suspecting you are full-closed on the air control to get those "little blue flames".  So at that point, i wonder what happens if you open it back up about an inch?

I really want to know what happens if you change out the wood - you need to identify items you can rule out.  With the conflicting data you keep reporting, you cannot assume anything about your wood, burn practices, or chimney setup.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

cocey2002 said:
			
		

> Hey Sherryann, Stuff that sucker full with wood. I always keep an axe by my woodpile to split some wood into smaller pieces. Leave the air wide open for 20-30 minutes. If the fan comes on turn it on low. After 20-30 minutes your wood should be burning great. Try backing the air down an inch or so. I hear a whistle type noise start when I do this. Try getting your temps up to 300-350. Once at 350 back it down another inch or more and turn fan on high. If you can't get these types of temps with this procedure your wood isn't seasoned well enough. If you hit 350 you are really cooking. My LR is 84 degrees as we speak.



I've been doing EXACTLY what your telling me, but I'm blowing through wood at an amazing speed and the house is only 2 degrees warmer than when we started the stove two hours ago.  I think our wood is not great, but it's not horrible either.  I switched out the thermometer yesterday, I still can't get the stove to 300.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> I switched out the thermometer yesterday, I still can't get the stove to 300.



Hint:  It's not the thermometer.  If the thermometer said 700 and you were still shivering, would you assume the thermometer was functioning right??


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> Sherry Ann
> 
> You have a schizophrenic stove here.  Sometimes it burns like wildfire and runs thru a full load in under 4 hours.  Other times it only gives you little blue flames.  And neither condition results in you heating your house.
> 
> ...



I am leaning toward your overdraft diagnosis.  Hot inside and not hot in the house has to be overdraft. We did exactly what everyone has suggested this morning and the flames were still dancing around way too fast at fully closed, then it burn the wood to coal and we get those dancing blue flames which create no heat. Yes, when I am full-closed I get those little blue flames.  If I back it up a bit, it gets a bit hotter but blows throught the wood.  

Here's a question I have not asked......should I have a good deal of heat from the stove when it is an hour into a full load WITHOUT the fan on?  I don't.  I feel almost no warmth without the fan on.

Another question, if we put in a block plate will that help the overdraft problem or do I need a flue damper?  I attached (hopefully) pictures that show the huge gap between teh stove and the opening of the fireplace.  Installer cemented the top of the chimney, we do not feel a draft her.  Might this be a good place for a flue damper adjustment to com in?  Am I thinking correctly?


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> SherryAnn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I had made the same assumption once we got a new one and it did the same thing.  What we could understand was why the fire was so hot when we open the door but is not registering on the thermometer.  I've got to go get some wood, but that will never happen today due to the snow and three kids home with me.  I usually only have the little one.


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> cocey2002 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you are loading the stove up and can't achieve 300 degrees, I think it comes down to a few possible problems.

1. Wood is suspect - Do you know what kind of wood it is? If you load the box up with dry OAK (running North/South), you should hit 350 to 400 and it should last longer than two hours before reducing to small coals with the air shut down 1/2 to fully closed. 

2. Cold drafts in house are robbing your heat. Do you have a modern house with good insulation and windows?

3. External mason chimney pouring cold air down your flue and cooling down your stove.

4. Too much draft in stove - with the stove air closed down, do you see active flames rising? You really shouldn't see flames rising, it should be more like dancing flames (secondary burn) moving around in the box.

5. Is your brick hearth above the stove getting hot? If I load mine up and get to 350/400, the bricks above the stove get real hot and throw off heat too.

You will only start throwing beneficial heat once you get into the 350/400 degree range. I think you said your installer is coming on Friday. Maybe you can review your procedure with him and see if he can point something out.

I should also mention preparing for next year.   Don't wait until spring or summer to get your wood for next years burning season.    It's best to be 1 year ahead with you wood supply.   Here's the reason.  If you season the wood yourself, you know it's aged properly.  If you buy seasoned wood, you pay more and you really don't know if it's been properly seasoned.

Hang in there, sooner or later you'll find the problem...


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Here's a question I have not asked......should I have a good deal of heat from the stove when it is an hour into a full load WITHOUT the fan on?  I don't.  I feel almost no warmth without the fan on.
> 
> Another question, if we put in a block plate will that help the overdraft problem or do I need a flue damper?



If I load up and start shutting down, within 15 to 30 minutes, depending on how many coals before reload, I can't stand next to stove because it's thowing too much heat.   Once you get to 350/400 degrees the glass is so hot you can't stand too close. You'll know what I am talking about once you get to these readings.

A block off plate will not control your draft, it keeps heat in your firebox as opposed to running up your chimney.  It also keeps the surrounding external areas of the stove hot so it doesn't cool the stove down.


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 28, 2009)

Quick question here as it pertains to the subject.  What exactly is a block off plate?  I do not believe my installer put one in.  How do I tell if there is one and if not can one be installed after the insert has been installed?

I have the Hampton i300 as well..


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> Quick question here as it pertains to the subject.  What exactly is a block off plate?  I do not believe my installer put one in.  How do I tell if there is one and if not can one be installed after the insert has been installed?
> 
> I have the Hampton i300 as well..



Take off your surround and look up inside your firebox.  If it looks like this (open area around flex pipe), you don't have a block off plate.  A blockoff plate seals off the area where your fireplace damper once was.  Do a search on blockoff plate and you'll see several examples.  Yes, it can be done after the install.  The installer will have to remove the stove and get inside your firebox, then reconnect stove to pipe.

I should also mention it sounds like you do not have an insulated pipe?  I don't and my sweep will be coming back in the spring to install a block off plate and pour in some form of insulation material from the top of the chimney.   He said he can install the blockoff plate just below the first tile above the smoke shelf from the outside.  He told me it's easier for him to do it this way and I'll never know he removed and re-installed some exterior brick.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

stejus said:
			
		

> 1. Wood is suspect - Do you know what kind of wood it is? If you load the box up with dry OAK (running North/South), you should hit 350 to 400 and it should last longer than two hours before reducing to small coals with the air shut down 1/2 to fully closed.
> 
> 2. Cold drafts in house are robbing your heat. Do you have a modern house with good insulation and windows?
> 
> ...



The wood is oak. The man who sold it to me burns it in an insert in his own home, he came inside, looked at my burning, and thought something was up since it wasn't that warm in my house and that when I shut it down all the way there was still a good deal of draft.  He said his give much more heat.

#4 is again the one that seems like the problem.  We are still seeing active flames rising when fully closed down.  

#5 the stones are WARM, not hot.  When we have the blower off, again, there is barely no heat.  We imagined that the rocks would be hot and they are not.  We have no radiant heat effect.

Our house was built in 1987.  We have very large windows, but they are double paned anderson windows.  There seems to be insulation in all walls.  

You are seeing me through to the end with this, I really appreciate it.  My installer doesn't burn wood, so the more information I can supply him with, the better.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> Quick question here as it pertains to the subject.  What exactly is a block off plate?  I do not believe my installer put one in.  How do I tell if there is one and if not can one be installed after the insert has been installed?
> 
> I have the Hampton i300 as well..


  How is yours functioning?  Are you having any of the issues I am having.  DO YOU FEEL MY PAIN????  Not that misery like company.....


----------



## _KMG (Jan 28, 2009)

is it just me, or is that thermometer stuck to the surround in the picture?  I could be looking at it wrong, but if you have the thermometer on the surround, please try moving it either to the loading door, or on the center of the top shelf - the area where you could set a kettle.  The surround wont give you the correct temperature.

edit: after looking closer, it looks like it is on the shelf, my bad.


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

I may be wrong, but does the ceramic coating give the same temp reading as cast iron?  Anyone else with a HI300 Timberline?  Mine is Black Metallic so I can't be sure you'll get the same reading.


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 28, 2009)

You won't get the same heat as from a freestanding stove. If you are used to a stove an insert is a different beast. They both do well but like you say without the blower on the insert is useless. Inserts rely on blowers to spread the heat.


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

cocey2002 said:
			
		

> You won't get the same heat as from a freestanding stove. If you are used to a stove an insert is a different beast. They both do well but like you say without the blower on the insert is useless. Inserts rely on blowers to spread the heat.



I agree, but still the same, with an insert fired up to around 400/450 degrees (external reading), you will not be able to stand too close to the doors as heat will be hitting you in the face and this is without the blower on. The HI300 sits out about 8" from the firebox so the glass, mantle and side cast pieces all get extremely hot too.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

Folks - the thermometer is the least of the worries here.  Where it is, what it's reading - all irrelevant.  The lady ain't warm.  Period.

If any setting open on the primary makes raging flames (but no heat felt) and closing it full makes those flames drop to zilch (and still no heat felt) it all points to over-draft.

Sherry Ann - here's something to try.  When you get to "little blue flame with primary closed" stage - what happens if you crack open the front door?  Do you get a lot of suction against it?  Feel/hear air rushing into the fire?  Flames rage up?

If you answer YES to those questions, you just might have an overdrafting stove.

You are running 30 feet of un-insulated 6" SS liner in an un-blocked-off, exterior chimney.  Your installer has done everything possible to make that sucker a draft-producing machine.

Add a blockoff plate.  Insulate the liner.  Find some way to add a flue damper....  ALL of those things are ways to REDUCE your draft, KEEP the heat inside the stove longer, and thereby INCREASE the heat you feel.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

_KMG said:
			
		

> is it just me, or is that thermometer stuck to the surround in the picture?  I could be looking at it wrong, but if you have the thermometer on the surround, please try moving it either to the loading door, or on the center of the top shelf - the area where you could set a kettle.  The surround wont give you the correct temperature.
> 
> edit: after looking closer, it looks like it is on the shelf, my bad.



It's on the shelf, but thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

stejus said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, but does the ceramic coating give the same temp reading as cast iron?  Anyone else with a HI300 Timberline?  Mine is Black Metallic so I can't be sure you'll get the same reading.



Hmmmmm....that's a thought.  I obviously can't answer that.  Isn't it cast iron under the paint?  I wouldn't think it would matter.


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 28, 2009)

I get some heat out of the stove.  I have a thermometer on the way and once I get it and I have a fire going I will be able to check temps and such.  

I am pretty sure I have no block off plate and the installer put some insulation around the top of the liner but the rest is uninsulated I am afraid.  I am wondering if I suffer from over drafting as well.  How hard is it to insulate the liner once it is in place?  Is it something I can do myself?  

Not sure I can get a block off plate installed easily.  I like in Mississippi and we do not have an overabundance of installers here.  I bought my insert from a dealer three hours away.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> Folks - the thermometer is the least of the worries here.  Where it is, what it's reading - all irrelevant.  The lady ain't warm.  Period.
> 
> If any setting open on the primary makes raging flames (but no heat felt) and closing it full makes those flames drop to zilch (and still no heat felt) it all points to over-draft.
> 
> ...


Okay, he told me he wouldn't add a flue damper.  Did you see the post earlier today of the pictures of the hole between the insert and fireplace?  It seem like there is plenty of space to get a little hangle out that gaping hole.  I did mention that he cemented at the top of the chimney to, just to give him SOME credit.  I have decided that installers should have burned at some point so they are better able to troubleshoot. 

Here's another question, he charged 1000 for installation and materials.  Think he's going to ask for more?  Is he justified?  How much?


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> I get some heat out of the stove.  I have a thermometer on the way and once I get it and I have a fire going I will be able to check temps and such.
> 
> I am pretty sure I have no block off plate and the installer put some insulation around the top of the liner but the rest is uninsulated I am afraid.  I am wondering if I suffer from over drafting as well.  How hard is it to insulate the liner once it is in place?  Is it something I can do myself?
> 
> Not sure I can get a block off plate installed easily.  I like in Mississippi and we do not have an overabundance of installers here.  I bought my insert from a dealer three hours away.



Typically insulation is either pre-wrapped around the liner or is a fluffy vermiculite product that is dumped down into the space between the liner and masonry.  If you have no blockoff plate, it just dumps onto the stove which is no good.  Assuming you can pull your liner out ever, and one would think you'd need to for cleaning the flue occasionally, then yes - you can install a blockoff plate.  

Are you sweeping yourself?  or hiring a sweep?  if the latter - talk to him about the metal work.  It's a pretty basic piece of sheetmetal fab work, you can do it yourself w/ the right basic tools.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> I get some heat out of the stove.  I have a thermometer on the way and once I get it and I have a fire going I will be able to check temps and such.
> 
> I am pretty sure I have no block off plate and the installer put some insulation around the top of the liner but the rest is uninsulated I am afraid.  I am wondering if I suffer from over drafting as well.  How hard is it to insulate the liner once it is in place?  Is it something I can do myself?
> 
> Not sure I can get a block off plate installed easily.  I like in Mississippi and we do not have an overabundance of installers here.  I bought my insert from a dealer three hours away.


Sounds like you and I are in the same boat. GOOD LUCK, my installer is coming on Friday, if you hang on unitl my problem is solved, maybe yours will be as well...


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Okay, he told me he wouldn't add a flue damper.  Did you see the post earlier today of the pictures of the hole between the insert and fireplace?  It seem like there is plenty of space to get a little hangle out that gaping hole.  I did mention that he cemented at the top of the chimney to, just to give him SOME credit.  I have decided that installers should have burned at some point so they are better able to troubleshoot.
> 
> Here's another question, he charged 1000 for installation and materials.  Think he's going to ask for more?  Is he justified?  How much?



Yes w/ the gap shown (your pic was really small - if you could post a larger one it would sure help) I think someone w/ some experience could make a damper w/ a long arm that would work.  THAT would cost you, no doubt.  I would not like the thought of paying more than $200 more for the insulation and blockoff plate fab/install work.  Could you try to pin him down to do the work for free?  I guess but I have a thing about karma w/ my contractors...  You probably need to talk it over ahead of time, or you risk one or both of you having quite a surprise.

That said, my installer flat out REFUSED to take a penny more from me when he came back to install my damper.  And he cost me a hell of a lot less than $1000.  Every installer is different.  I said in a different post that you may well need to break ties w/ your guy here and find someone more experienced to undo his errors, if he's unwilling or just plain incapable of doing it himself.

If you are near the NE CT border, my guy may travel that far.  he does stone work and sheetmetal work - he could definitely fabricate a long arm to drive a damper for you w/ that setup.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

[quote author="Edthedawg" date="1233180844

Yes w/ the gap shown (your pic was really small - if you could post a larger one it would sure help) I think someone w/ some experience could make a damper w/ a long arm that would work.  THAT would cost you, no doubt.  I would not like the thought of paying more than $200 more for the insulation and blockoff plate fab/install work.  Could you try to pin him down to do the work for free?  I guess but I have a thing about karma w/ my contractors...  You probably need to talk it over ahead of time, or you risk one or both of you having quite a surprise.

That said, my installer flat out REFUSED to take a penny more from me when he came back to install my damper.  And he cost me a hell of a lot less than $1000.  Every installer is different.  I said in a different post that you may well need to break ties w/ your guy here and find someone more experienced to undo his errors, if he's unwilling or just plain incapable of doing it himself.

If you are near the NE CT border, my guy may travel that far.  he does stone work and sheetmetal work - he could definitely fabricate a long arm to drive a damper for you w/ that setup.[/quote]

I did open the door, it does create a RAGING fire when I do that .  

The picture is small on post #53?  There are two pictures of just the top of the stove and my son's hand sticking in the hole.  On my computer they are at least 3 x 3, I didn't mean the tiny one on the left of my posts.

I live in West Kingston.  I can get to 95 very quickly but that takes you to SE CT.  I think I should let him try to fix what he can, block plate and insulation, especially since I clearly paid through the nose.  However, if I want to put in a flue damper, I might consider your installer for that.  I don't want to break ties yet because I paid so much!  I am considering contacting the reginal rep from Hampton, he lives fairly close.  He should know what is going on........
If I crack the door, the fire does rage up tremendously.  Now we are getting somewhere.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> On my computer they are at least 3 x 3


3x3 is tiny.  Your pixel size is what you should go by.  Post up to 640x480, I believe.



> If I crack the door, the fire does rage up tremendously.  Now we are getting somewhere.


Bingo - you're overdrafting.  The good news is this confirms you have tight door seals, and a very good functioning primary control.

I really hope the plate and insulation help - but it really wouldn't hurt to presume they won't, and start getting the wheels in motion NOW to add a flue damper.  Talk to chimney sweeps in the phone book, if you're at ground-zero w/ your installer - I assume he doesn't know anything about sweeping if he doesn't burn himself.  I doubt the Hampton rep is going to have much to say, either.

I will add this: if it was NOT recommended or allowed, they'd say so in the manual.  The fact that it's an insert makes it generally impossible to easily add one, so I'm not surprised they avoid the topic altogether.  But you have unique circumstances here w/ good access and an exceptionally tall chimney, it sounds...  Worst case is you install it and running with it full open is like it's not there.

And finally, back to your air control - you have essentially an ON/OFF lever now, right?  I had the same thing w/ my 30+ ft liner on my Heritage.  Until I added the damper.  Now I have actual adjustment sensitivity from the primary - it's a beautiful thing.

Keep the posts comin'!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

I'm so glad you mentioned that the seal on the door is okay, the installer said that might have been a possible problem.  I feel better knowing what the problem is.  Now I know we aren't crazy, I didn't think it was all wood.  My installer IS a chimney sweep.  That's mostly what he does!  Bet you wouldn't have guessed that!  Are the pictures better?  I had chosen blog size, I need email size.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

Cool - much better.  Looks like a good gap there - some chiseling and/or drilling would get a rod back there to turn a damper, I think.

A sweep with no woodburning knowledge, and limited stove installation experience, huh?  Go find them yellapages, Sherry Ann...


----------



## pulldownclaw (Jan 28, 2009)

Interesting thread, as I have the HI300 as well.  One thing I'm also curious about is whether or not Sherry has adjusted her door latch.  The manual says that you may need to take out some spacers on the latch after the break in period, I guess the door gasket compressing, etc.  I tried to do that to my stove last year in my first year of burning, and I guess I ended up overdoing it, because I snapped my handle off!   :grrr:  The door was too tight and after forcing it opened and closed too many times the bolt that runs through the handle snapped off.  I replaced the handle (Regency was great and sent me one for free), and reverted the door back to its original tightness.

I do think I may be getting some door leakage leading to overdrafting as well, because when I open my door I get that big rush of air as well.  It's actually how I get my fires started.  Leave the door cracked, get the flames raging, close the door and leave the primary open all the way for 5 minutes, then start shutting it down.

One thing that doesn't make sense for Sherry to me is: if she's got an overdraft situation, why does she get this lazy flame situation?  Wouldn't all her wood just burn up real fast and go up the flue?  I do agree that a blockoff is a must, and she'll actually get some nice warm air coming out from where there's that gap between the stove and the stone work.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

My guess is she's getting the low blue flame only at full-closed airflow.  But that's after running open, and progressively closing down - which just heats up the flue in her (overdrafting) case.  So with the doors sealing well, that means all the air is now coming in the secondary tubes and going up the flue - missing the wood/fire below.  With a full load, I'm kinda surprised that doesn't keep some secondaries going for at least a few minutes, but I'm surmising that the flue draws so hard, the tubes, baffle, and upper firebox just aren't hot enough to sustain secondaries.  And maybe by this time, the fire has already started to coal down too low, too.


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

A simple door gasket test is with a dollar bill.   Close the door with a dollar bill half way in the door.   If your door is seal good, you should not be able to pull the dollar bill out.  If you can pull the dollar out easily, you need to tighten the door.


----------



## pulldownclaw (Jan 28, 2009)

Yeah, I have to do the dollar bill test again.  Did you guys with Hamptons adjust your doors?


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

Here's a thought?  If the stove is drafting too much, couldn't you prove this by loading up the stove and dampering down 1/2 way to see if it takes off?  If there's good draft, I think it would take off and by being 1/2 shut, you're not loosing too much up the flue...


----------



## stejus (Jan 28, 2009)

pulldownclaw said:
			
		

> Yeah, I have to do the dollar bill test again.  Did you guys with Hamptons adjust your doors?



I did two weeks after first burn.  I took one washer off and it's tight again.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 28, 2009)

Yeah it wouldn't shock me if she could get a raging fire going from scratch with the air open only a little - let alone halfway.

But her only sensitivity seems to be ON/OFF - nothing in between.  So if it takes off at all, it seems like all heat up the flue no matter what...  I do like the idea of the blockoff plate - and a slab of kaowoll/rockwool insulation on top of it! - back there to keep the blower cavity nice and hot.  The cement on top of the chimney may keep the air surrounding the liner from rushing up, but if it's not blocked off, basic fluid and thermodynamics state that the warmest air will still naturally try going up around it anyways - and will find leaks or simply dissipate to the surrounding cold chimney...


----------



## oconnor (Jan 28, 2009)

I know you have all put your best thoughts to this problem - lots of input so far...

but...

Overdraft makes no sense to me - when she shuts down the air she is not closing all the air, simply closing the primary air inlet. If she had an overdraft going on, then the secondary air would take over, and the fire would continue, and the temps would rise, not fall and the fire die out. That secondary air won't just rush up the flue - if the fire is hot, then the gasses will ignite due to the increase O2.

In the end, the fire is not hot.

A block off plate and insulation will not decrease draft, it will increase draft - so It's not going to cure an overdraft - but again I don't think that is the problem.  As well, adding a flue damper will negate the EPA design of the stove, and assumes that overdraft is the issue, which is not the situation SherryAnne is decribing.

My guess here is still poor draft due to incomplete burn - i.e. the fire is not hot.  There could be a mechanical block with the air inlets in the stove (still a draft issue, as for the chimney to suck air thru the stove, the air needs a way in). As I read the manual for that stove, it doesn't sound like they expect you to get much heat in the "low burn setting (air half closed)" as they don't want you to use the blower in that air setting, so I wouldn't worry about turning the air down early - your flue set up may need a lot of heat to maintain good draft that will allow it to burn on secondary air alone, so don't rush.

SherryAnne - Have you tried my fire lighting technique below?  In the end, even if all the convective heat is being lost up the flue because of no block off plate, the surface of the stove should still be getting hot - as in you should feel the heat on your hands when you are running it hot.  It wouldn't matter if the unit was outside and it was minus 10*F, the stove would still eventually get hot.

If you truly want to know, then dry some wood in your kitchen stove - after supper, when the oven is cooling off (about 250F and cooling), stick some small splits in there and leave them for a few hours.  Then build up a large "log cabin" of splits and kindling, light it, and once it seems ready to go with the door open, then let the stove run with the door closed and the air wide open.  Don't close the air until your thermometer shows the stove heating up. then, close it really slow, as I think your flue needs a lot of heat to maintain draft.

It may take 2 full loads burning small splits to heat up your flue looks like a massive stone unit, so it will soak up a lot of heat from your liner, and take longer for your liner to heat up and draft properly.

Do not be in a hurry to turn the air down - when I first installed my unit, it often took 2 loads of fine splits to get the flue warm enough to create enough draft to allow me to load larger splits and turn the air down.

Here is the fire lighting link - https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/31393/

If you find that the longer hot fire works, then insulating the liner will help, as the liner won't radiate as much heat into the surrounding brick/stone, so it will get hotter sooner and draft better.

But a fire that dies when air is closed is the exact opposite of overdraft.


----------



## iceman (Jan 28, 2009)

I'MMMMMMMMMMMMM   BAAAAAAACCCCCCCCKKKKKK
i have been away and jsut read most of the thread... does sound like a draft issue...  but are you loading wood e/ or n/s    east /west or north south?
but if it is overdraft she should still get a lotta heat when its shut down...... i believe she is losing heat through her chimney, and def needs block off pate with an insulated liner......   this is a very interesting stove....... ask him what size liner he used that could be it and also if you have to much draft you might have to down size as it will be tough to put a damper in


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

iceman said:
			
		

> I'MMMMMMMMMMMMM   BAAAAAAACCCCCCCCKKKKKK
> i have been away and jsut read most of the thread... does sound like a draft issue...  but are you loading wood e/ or n/s    east /west or north south?
> but if it is overdraft she should still get a lotta heat when its shut down...... i believe she is losing heat through her chimney, and def needs block off pate with an insulated liner......   this is a very interesting stove....... ask him what size liner he used that could be it and also if you have to much draft you might have to down size as it will be tough to put a damper in



Welcome back, I think this is like Doctor's trying to diagnose a very difficult condition, you all are so dedicated to trying to figure this out (I 'd have thought you all would have deemed my problem impossible by now)!  My paperwork says I have a 6" stainless steel liner system.  I usually stack it in north to south, simply because I can usually cram more in when I can easily see all the available space.  Here is another interesting thing.....the right side of the fire box always catches before the left.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

pulldownclaw said:
			
		

> Interesting thread, as I have the HI300 as well.  One thing I'm also curious about is whether or not Sherry has adjusted her door latch.  The manual says that you may need to take out some spacers on the latch after the break in period, I guess the door gasket compressing, etc.  I tried to do that to my stove last year in my first year of burning, and I guess I ended up overdoing it, because I snapped my handle off!   :grrr:  The door was too tight and after forcing it opened and closed too many times the bolt that runs through the handle snapped off.  I replaced the handle (Regency was great and sent me one for free), and reverted the door back to its original tightness.
> 
> I do think I may be getting some door leakage leading to overdrafting as well, because when I open my door I get that big rush of air as well.  It's actually how I get my fires started.  Leave the door cracked, get the flames raging, close the door and leave the primary open all the way for 5 minutes, then start shutting it down.
> 
> One thing that doesn't make sense for Sherry to me is: if she's got an overdraft situation, why does she get this lazy flame situation?  Wouldn't all her wood just burn up real fast and go up the flue?  I do agree that a blockoff is a must, and she'll actually get some nice warm air coming out from where there's that gap between the stove and the stone work.



I knew nothing about the handle, haven't touched it, and don't think I will right yet.  I've got to do the dollar test.....just did it and the bill slid right out.   The wood does just burn up fast, that's exactly what' s happening.  Those blue lazy flames comes only later in the burn cycle when everything is nearly coal.   In the beginning it's all pretty fast moving, and before we know it, the wood is burned down quite far.....yet no heat.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

oconnor said:
			
		

> I know you have all put your best thoughts to this problem - lots of input so far...
> 
> but...
> 
> ...



I will try your method, but tomorrow.  At lease I don't have to go out to buy store wood to do that.  We'll see...


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 28, 2009)

Okay, so now I've started a load, it's going good, I just put the fan on.  At what point should I kick the fan on?  Seems hotter now that I left it off longer.


----------



## pulldownclaw (Jan 29, 2009)

I usually just leave the fan on "auto", when it detects the firebox is hot enough, it kicks on.  I know that sometimes the snapdisk needs to be bent a little to make sure it contacts the metal of the internal box.  If you ever notice your fan not coming on when you think it should, check that out.  All you do is pull your blower off and look for a little silver disk, about the size of a quarter, and you can bend it a little bit toward the stove.


----------



## maytrix (Jan 29, 2009)

pulldownclaw said:
			
		

> I usually just leave the fan on "auto", when it detects the firebox is hot enough, it kicks on.



That's what I do to.  Man Its getting hot in here.. time for my shorts 


Reading this thread, I thought the dollar test was interesting so I decided to try it.  My dollar caught on fire.    (j/k)


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 29, 2009)

Maytrix said:
			
		

> pulldownclaw said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope I'm in shorts someday  Thanks for the laugh, I've burned a lot more than a dollar in mine, I've gone through two chords of wood and only ever raised the temp on the first floor by 2-3 degrees.


----------



## maytrix (Jan 29, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Maytrix said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm no expert, but if the dollar pulls out of the door in your test, I think the seal is poor.  My only current problem is the wood I have is not dry enough.  When we had dried wood, the fire would rage with the damper fully closed.  I can only get that now with the bio bricks (which I'm not thrilled with - the envi blocks are better!).  I do start my fires and let them get going for a few minutes with the door open a crack.  Then I close it up and let it run with the damper fully open.  Then I close it down once it heats up to a point where its still burning enough to generate heat.. with the 6 month seasoned wood we have, that's fully opened.  I can fully close it with the bio bricks.


----------



## iceman (Jan 29, 2009)

after going back through the thread again i don't believe you have to much draft... it almost sounds like something may be blocked or clogged your stove is giving off heat if the stones are warm especially with such a large gap in between... but with all this burning how much ash is in the stove..  have you checked where the air comes in?  does your window turn black?   go outside and look at your chimney, does it have a lotta black stuff at the top of it?  is the smoke black/grey/white when your burning?  when your door is closed does it move (wiggle) put your therm on top of the stove.. see if it goes higher than 300 its not ideal but just for kicks 
also see if you can feel cold air anywhere near that fireplace opening?
is your house new?  insulated?  i thought someone mentioned the opposite but can't remember ..


----------



## oconnor (Jan 29, 2009)

Sherry

Think of the idea of priming a pump - sometimes you need to pour water into a pump before you can get water out of it - If you drink the water you are supposed to pour into the pump, then you will never get more water from the pump.

Often, a chimney system is the same way - you need to add heat to it before you can get heat into the room.   - if you turn the blower on before the flue is warm, then the flue will draft poorly ( like pump performance if you drink the water instead of priming the pump), and you will get less heat, but if you let the flue warm up (try even an hour before you use the blower as a starting place), then you will get more heat overall, as the system as a whole will be more efficient.

Work on getting the system hot first. Once you are used to getting the system to burn wood well, then work on using it to heat your house.

It sounds like you had more luck last night - way to go!  Keep it up.  Comment above about your dollar bill test and leakage seem valid, as does the idea of insulating the liner (always a good idea, and should be the law in my opinion, but I am Canadian after all, and we like to have governments tell us what to do - not always the same sentiment south of the border  ;-P )


----------



## stejus (Jan 29, 2009)

Boy this is an active thread. I think you know I have the same stove. Like yours, my liner is not insulated and I have no block off plate. My liner is only 25 feet though. 

What I did do in the interim is stuff some insulation (fiberglass) in the damper opening where the liner passes through. I don't know if this helps much, but I do notice I have a very hot firebox and the stove sides are hot. Before the insulation was added, the stove sides were cool to touch.

This insulation trick is only temporary because I'm getting the liner insulated in the spring. 

The manual states you should burn fully open every day. What this does is clear out and creosote that may have formed in the previous day. Be careful with this. Do not load the stove fully when burning wide open for an hour.

Here's my method to getting the liner and stove temp up to draw well after an overnight burn.

1. Remove ash from up front. Move coals toward center and remove more ash from the sides.
2. Rake remaining hot coals forward toward door. Leave about an inch of ash in the stove all around.
3. Add 3 good splits and leave air wide open. Within 10 or 15 minutes, this wood should be firing real hard. 
4. After an hour, I have a stove temp reading of 320 (this morning) and these three splits are still flaming hard and glowing red.
5. Load it up with wood (stuff it good), let it all fire up nicely so all pieces are charring.
6. Turn on blower (auto) and start knocking the air down slowly, (the key is slowly) to totally closed in about 30 to 45 minutes. It usually knock it down in four steps. At this point, the stove is at 400 (at least it was when I left). 
7 Turn off blower (you can't use blower in slow burn mode).

You should start to see the secondary burn starting to kick in when you start to close the air down. If you knock it down and you don't see the secondary burn, open the air back up a little until you get it going again. Then keep trying to knock it down. If you totally fail and don't see any secondary burn, your stove is not getting hot enough so stop shutting down and go the other direction until you get the stove temp above 300. 

Remember, a slow burn will not give you the most heat. If you want more heat, keep the air open about 1/2 way and turn your blower in (auto). You should still see a secondary burn.

It's a true balancing act and no two wood loads are the same. Once you discover the balancing act, you'll know you succeeded.

Try this later today and let us know.


FYI - If you do this, you may see little black flakes around your chimey (outside). This is a sign you have some creosote and you are getting it out of the liner with a good hot (open air) fire.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 29, 2009)

oconnor said:
			
		

> ... if you let the flue warm up, then you will get more heat overall, as the system as a whole will be more efficient.
> 
> Work on getting the system hot first. Once you are used to getting the system to burn wood well, then work on using it to heat your house.



I still respectfully disagree with this - she stated numerous times that she gets raging flames and that consume the load in short time.  If that raging fire isn't heating the stove, and you're claiming it's not heating the flue...  where is it going again??  

The situation is described as 30+' of liner with rapid fuel consumption and minimal heat output to the room, using dry, 2-3 yr seasoned hardwood.  

I'm sorry, but how any of that could be considered poor draft and/or poor wood is beyond me...


----------



## pulldownclaw (Jan 29, 2009)

It's so hard to diagnose with so many variables, but to me my best guess is that she's losing all of her heat up the chimney without a blockoff plate.  That stone chimney looks big, and the stove's surround panels don't fully cover the opening, so all of the heat from the firebox and heat from the rest of the house is probably being sucked right up that big chimney.  If she gets a good blockoff plate installed, and possibly isulates the liner, then she'll BENEFIT from that gap and some of that heat will roll out of the chimney into the room.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm definitely in agreement there - blockoff plate FTW!

But that's not the end of it - I still say she needs to slow that fire down and put more heat to the box instead of the flue.

The real kicker here is the total inability to measure flue temps.  If she is getting 1200ish flue gas temps, that would kinda confirm where all the heat is really going, eh?  I wonder how much of the flue is visible w/ the surround off?  could an IR therm point back there and get a decent reading??


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 29, 2009)

What I don't understand about this is the manual states that to decrease temps you should shut the air down. Everytime I shut the air down the temps either go down or stay around the same for awhile. Shouldn't she try getting the stove hot first before shutting the air down? She says she never got above 300. I would think that she needs to run it wide open with the fan on low/off until she gets good temps then cut the air back. If she is still not able to get heat at 350+ then something such as a Boff plate or insulated liner is needed.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 29, 2009)

cocey2002 said:
			
		

> What I don't understand about this is the manual states that to decrease temps you should shut the air down. Everytime I shut the air down the temps either go down or stay around the same for awhile. Shouldn't she try getting the stove hot first before shutting the air down? She says she never got above 300. I would think that *she needs to run it wide open with the fan on low/off *until she gets good temps then cut the air back. If she is still not able to get heat at 350+ then something such as a Boff plate or insulated liner is needed.



Unless I misread many of the last 100+ (!) postings wrong, that's exactly what she's tried doing, with no luck.  It drafts like a mother, fails to respond to cutting the air back until closed completely (off) and at no point does she get over 300ish.


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 29, 2009)

If she is running it full and not getting up to 300 then my best guess is the wood. I wish she would go get some wood at Lowes for example and run it with that ultra dry stuff. I don't have a block off plate but do have an insulated liner. Chimney is over 33ft. I have no problems getting to 400.


----------



## stejus (Jan 29, 2009)

cocey2002 said:
			
		

> If she is running it full and not getting up to 300 then my best guess is the wood. I wish she would go get some wood at Lowes for example and run it with that ultra dry stuff. I don't have a block off plate but do have an insulated liner. Chimney is over 33ft. I have no problems getting to 400.



Could be the wood, but if she's running wide open, even semi aged wood (6 months) will get hot eventually.  I know, because that is what I am using right now.  I ran out of good stuff and now buring wood that I had purchased green in July and a little dead stuff I pulled out of the woods in November.  It takes a little longer to burn off the moisture, but when it does, I reach 400 degrees every time.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 29, 2009)

Just so you all know....I didn't disappear, we had to let the insert cool since he's working on it tomorrow morning.   I need to remove all the coal and ash.  I will let you know how my first burn goes tomorrow.  I do think I was running the fan too soon, I didn't realize that would effect it at all, I just had it on automatic all the time.  To be continued...............


----------



## stejus (Jan 29, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Just so you all know....I didn't disappear, we had to let the insert cool since he's working on it tomorrow morning. I need to remove all the coal and ash. I will let you know how my first burn goes tomorrow. I do think I was running the fan too soon, I didn't realize that would effect it at all, I just had it on automatic all the time. To be continued...............



Just remember to start off slow with a cold stove. You don't want a raging fire right away... Start with small kindling and when that coals, add a few splits and let that start to coal before you really fill it up.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 29, 2009)

That's a great point - don't try to draw too much data from the response of the first fires in a cold, ash-and-coal-free stove w/ new accessories...  Do it slow and methodical, get the whole system up to temp - stoves generally always burn best w/ fresh, dry fuel on a well-established coal bed.  Cold starts are always gonna be a little quirky...


----------



## oconnor (Jan 29, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> oconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Simply put, all we know is that she isn't warm, and that the stove dies when she closes the air.

That is definately not an overfire situation, as the stove would not slow down and cool - overfire is by definition the inability to control the fire, and she can shut it off and turn it on with the air. I believe that the BTU being generated by the burning wood are being used up in evaporating the water in the wood or heating the large stone flue or both, and there is not enough left to keep the occupant warm.

So, Dr House differential Diagnosis time (I love the show, but I think I'm nicer than he is) - 

Symptoms - Subject is cold, and closing the air control causes fire to die - she can shut it off and turn it on with the air.
Dollar bill test is a near failure - pulls thru, so it may be a leak into the stove.
Masonary stone flue with full 6" uninsulated liner - large heat sink - takes lots of heat to get it to warm up

There are only 3 variables for fire - heat, air and fuel - the fire triangle
Air is composed of exhaust out which draws air into the stove
Heat is ignition and sustained combustion, of which more heat gives more draft and uses fuel, more draft draws more air and the cycle continues
Fuel is wood - size, species, moisture, positioning are all factors

Dying fire when primary air is closed down - means that there is insuficient heat and air to sustain burn - damp fuel will require more air, and will result in fire dying when air is removed.  As well, unintended air entry (leaky door) will cause air to enter in places that stove designer did not intend and may not be used well by the stove - secondary air is designed to enter to sustain the offgas products in combustion, and if air is entering around the door, then not as much will enter via the secondary tubes

Two factors control air - air control rod controls which openings allow how much air into the fire box, and escaping combustion gasses create a negative pressure in the firebox as they leave the flue - AKA draft - changing one changes both, as less air out means less air in, therefore less combustion, and less air out - it increases or decreases until a new balance is achieved, unless it can't sustain combustion, in which case it does out - this is what is happening 

Normally closing the air down reduces the primary air entry, and allows more secondary air injection, while the rate of combustion will still sustain enough draft to keep "sucking" air into the box. Total air into the firebox drops, but enough air enters to allow wood to offgass and sustain a burn. In essence, less total air injected in the right place allows for more combustion and more heat, allowing sustained draft because of better use of air and fuel in the stove.

Diagnosis - If there is not enough draft compared to the decrase in available air, then the burn deceases too much, then draft drops, and the process comes to a halt.

Wet wood makes this worse, as water vapour phase change (liguid to steam) receives a lot of btu with minimal increase in temperature (high specific heat), so it essentially "steals" the heat - that means you need more air in to sustain the amount of combustion (heat) needed to keep draft (air) high enough to burn the wet wood (fuel), so you burn wood quickly to maintain enough draft to actually maintain combustion - that doesn't leave enough heat for the occupant to feel warm.

A cold flue makes this worse, as the heat of combustion will leave the rising gasses until the chimney is up to a stable temp. If the chimney is a large heatsink, then it can take a long time for the chimney temp to reach a stable temp - 2- 3 loads of wood is possible if it is all made from the large stone shown in the stove pics.

So, it is either - wet wood, inappropriate air entry (Gasket), or a cold flue that takes a large time to warm up - it is a low draft problem

But in no way is it overdraft - she doesn't have a stove she can't control, but a stove that is over sensitive to control.  The small decrease in primary air doesn't allow for sustained temps, so draft drops, and fire goes out.  Both damp wood and a cold flue will cause this.  The gasket is possible, but not as likely as the other two.

Does this make sense to anyone else? If not, PM me and maybe we can fix the errors without adding another 100 posts to the confusion.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 29, 2009)

I hearya . And you've obviously put a ton of thought into this.  And arguing (public or private) ain't gonna solve anything for the damsel in distress, so to speak...

All I want to point out are these two things:

1 - she claims the wood doesn't hiss when it burns.  She also claims that when she has had wet wood, it has hissed, so I'm willing to trust her understanding of dry vs wet wood.  *So in my mind, that negates a diagnosis based solely/heavily on wet wood.*

2 - she claims the fire dies down w/ primary full closed, but roars to life the instant she cracks open the door, and that she can hear and feel the air flow trying to suck the door shut.  *So in my mind, that negates a diagnosis of insufficient draft.*

That's all I'm going on - those details are in the previous posts, and maybe I am misinterpreting their significance...  Not gonna debate it further til I see what changes are brought by her installer visiting tomorrow...


----------



## iceman (Jan 29, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> I hearya . And you've obviously put a ton of thought into this.  And arguing (public or private) ain't gonna solve anything for the damsel in distress, so to speak...
> 
> All I want to point out are these two things:
> 
> ...



i was thinking hard about this i know it sounds crazy.. but throw in all the variables ...about heat loss ... within her setup
and then what if her wood is rotten?????  didn't someone ssay it has sat a long time?   we know it sounds dry but .. rotten wood isn't gonna burn long as its almost paper.. then with her current setup she is losing alotta heat regardless



SHERRY PLEASE TRY SOME DIFFERENT WOOD FROM A STORE .. HD OR LOWES JUST TO SHUT US UP PLEASE


----------



## oconnor (Jan 29, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> I hearya . And you've obviously put a ton of thought into this.  And arguing (public or private) ain't gonna solve anything for the damsel in distress, so to speak...
> 
> All I want to point out are these two things:
> 
> ...



No debate intended - please don't take my questions as arguing, they are but a quest for good information that makes sense.  Negating both draft sufficiency and wood quality doesn't make sense as it leaves only heat in the fire triangle - and the only way to get heat is burning wood, which if the wood is good and draft is good should happen, but it isn't.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

This is beginning to sound like house......if in the end, this turns out to be a wood problem, I will be absolutely embarrassed, since I am sure it isn't wood.  There is something else wrong.  Even fully closed, the load burns like hell, totally closed, but there is no darn heat coming out of the stove.  Then we get to the point where there is mostly coal and very little fire, what I have explained as the lazy blue flame phase.  Then it all turns dark on the outside and barely burns.  I think my stove has schizophrenia.  When it gets all dark and isn't creating ANY heat, we've been opening it back up to burn down the coal because we end up with too much coal and can't fit any wood, but the coal doesn't burn easily, so we end up waiting so long to burn it down and we have far more cold time that cranking hot time (shouldn't this all coal stage be the hottest phase?), then we start all over again.  We have yet to get that slow llazy fire that just lazily peters off in 6 hours or so.  We blow through the whole process in 3 hours tops, and remember, the draft is closed 1/2-40mins into the burn.   I think there was so much information it all got confusing, but this is the jist of the whole problem in one post.  

Tomorrow is the big day!  The stove is so cold and lonely, despite it's poor performance, I already miss it.  Cross our fingers and just hope that we have been warming the atmosphere in and around the chimney, and that after tomorrow, we will be all set. I'm going to be one annoyed damsel if not, and then I promise, if that doesn't fix it, I will go buy some of that darn Lowe's wood you all have been suggesting. 

Thanks for the tip on starting slow tomorrow, I'll take it slow!

So where do you get the little stuff?  We'll have it in the future since we live in the woods, but for your first year, where you all getting these rounds your talking about?  I'm guessing you all live in the woods too.......next year this will all be perfect.


----------



## snowtime (Jan 30, 2009)

Just a point about those coals. You mentioned that if you wait for them to burn down the stove cools to much. Try this when you have only coals but they are still hot put one good split in the center with the air open. The split will help keep the temp up while the coals burn down.


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 30, 2009)

What I don't understand is that it does seem like her draft is an issue. Closing it all the way down and still burning like hell. She said she did fail the dollar test. With that said even if some of the heat was going up the chimney with a roaring fire as she described the box should still get hot. Just like leaving the door cracked open. The fire roars and gets hot very fast.


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Finally got my thermometer yesterday.  Built a fire and finally got the insert to 300 but it took a long time.  Never really got over 300 but at that reading I had glowing burn tubes and a good fire going.  For the Hampton HI300 where is the best place to put the thermometer for a good reading?


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 30, 2009)

On the shelf above where the air comes out. About 3-4 inches back in the middle.


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 30, 2009)

So not directly in the middle of the shelf then.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

snowtime said:
			
		

> Just a point about those coals. You mentioned that if you wait for them to burn down the stove cools to much. Try this when you have only coals but they are still hot put one good split in the center with the air open. The split will help keep the temp up while the coals burn down.



Theoretically.  One split in my stove makes no heat, even if the rest is full of coal.  However, once my situation is fixed I'm sure that will work!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

cocey2002 said:
			
		

> What I don't understand is that it does seem like her draft is an issue. Closing it all the way down and still burning like hell. She said she did fail the dollar test. With that said even if some of the heat was going up the chimney with a roaring fire as she described the box should still get hot. Just like leaving the door cracked open. The fire roars and gets hot very fast.



Fire will burn my eyelashed right off if I open the door.  But there's no darn heat coming out of it.  I know,.....doesn't make any sence.  Sometimes the best way to get any heat out of it once it was coal was to open the door up.  Shouldn't need to do that......


----------



## stejus (Jan 30, 2009)

Did this question already get asked?  Are you loading the stove to it's fullest capacity in a North/South direction?  This stove can fit 3 large splits on the floor, 2 smaller splits on top of them and then some rounds on top of these.  You want to stuff it like a turkey.  If you are not loading it fully, you will never see the 400/450 degree reading.

See my small rounds pile.  These were scrounged out of my woods.  These are perfect for stuffing the voids on top of the splits.  If you have a wooded lot, you have rounds!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

stejus said:
			
		

> Did this question already get asked?  Are you loading the stove to it's fullest capacity in a North/South direction?  This stove can fit 3 large splits on the floor, 2 smaller splits on top of them and then some rounds on top of these.  You want to stuff it like a turkey.  If you are not loading it fully, you will never see the 400/450 degree reading.
> 
> See my small rounds pile.  These were scrounged out of my woods.  These are perfect for stuffing the voids on top of the splits.  If you have a wooded lot, you have rounds!



I have major envy of your rounds!  I do have woods, and A LOT of them.  There are 14 open acres behind my house, the owners are elderly and gave us permission to take anything down.  YA HOOO!  Only problem is it is a lot of pine.  Soon as the snow melts, we'll start collecting.  Will the snow melt?


----------



## stejus (Jan 30, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> stejus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Will the snow melt?  Not any time soon... maybe by March.  Get out there before its too late because the bugs will attack you if you wait too long.  Pine is not the best, even if it's dry.  They burn too quick and their btu is low compared to oak.  Look hard for the fallen oak branches.  These make perfect rounds.   Collect them, cut them, stack them to dry and you'll be ready for next year.

This is my first year too, just started to burn on New Years eve.  I did a lot of prep work in the early fall because of all the knowledge I've gained on this site!  Next season will be even better!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

Okay, he's just left, this is what happened.  He took that top piece off and stuffed some insulation up inside around the liner ( which IS a 6" ss flex)  I questioned this, pointing out that on the phone we had discussed a bloke plate, he said he didn't think we needed that.  He said he usually puts some insulation in and his helper must have forgotten.  I told him about the washers in the latch, he took one out of the top and bottom, then he couldn't close the door, so he put one back in the bottom, so it's just one less on the top.  After he left, I did the dollar test, and guess what?  That sucker still slide right out.  WHAT THE H***!  I'm not confident that we are going to have any better luck.  He is ordering a new contact piece, the one that tells the fan to come on and off automatically, since it runs all night if we put it on in the evening.


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 30, 2009)

WHy are you not supposed to run the blower with the primary air closed?  I seem to remember that they say not to run the fan unless the primary is open (half-way?).  Seems like the purpose of closing down the air is to build up heat in the fire box but I am not supposed to use the blower then?


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 30, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Okay, he's just left, this is what happened.  He took that top piece off and stuffed some insulation up inside around the liner ( which IS a 6" ss flex)  I questioned this, pointing out that on the phone we had discussed a bloke plate, he said he didn't think we needed that.  He said he usually puts some insulation in and his helper must have forgotten.  I told him about the washers in the latch, he took one out of the top and bottom, then he couldn't close the door, so he put one back in the bottom, so it's just one less on the top.  After he left, I did the dollar test, and guess what?  That sucker still slide right out.  WHAT THE H***!  I'm not confident that we are going to have any better luck.  He is ordering a new contact piece, the one that tells the fan to come on and off automatically, since it runs all night if we put it on in the evening.



Sherry,

I think it might be time to cut ties w/ your installer.  Contact Hampton and find a qualified installer.  If this gent IS their "qualified installer" then you need to calmly detail the abundant shortcomings in his approach thus far.

Insulation around the liner, filling the top of the fireplace opening around the liner isn't a bad start.  But if that's all he did.......  i'm gonna wonder what changes you see.  

Did you see any place you could maybe run a control rod to turn a damper back there? 

Did you confirm your chimney/liner height better than "about 30' i think"?

He didn't put any insulation around the liner, inside the chimney, from the sound of things...  Exterior chimneys should be insulated due to the cold temps making creosote condensation so easy.

I wonder where that "contact piece" sits - sounds like a thermal switch of some sort.  if it's close to the flue exit, then I'm not surprised it "thinks it's hot" all the time and stays running - I think that's right where all that "singe-your-eyebrows-off" heat is going!

I'm still worried about you, girl!


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 30, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> WHy are you not supposed to run the blower with the primary air closed?  I seem to remember that they say not to run the fan unless the primary is open (half-way?).  Seems like the purpose of closing down the air is to build up heat in the fire box but I am not supposed to use the blower then?



The blower will cool down the stove temps. That is what I question. They seem to think that closing the air down past half way will cool the stove.


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 30, 2009)

Another somewhat stupid question.  On the Hampton HI300 where does it take in air for combustion?


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> SherryAnn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you are right, I may need to cut ties.  I have good news to report.  I started it up slowly with some bark and a bunch of small pieces that I split off a larger split.  Then I put two small splits a bit later.  I saw some nice secondaries with just those two small splits.  I then put on a bit later three small splits on top of that.  I now seem to have a much hotter, lazier flame.  The house raised two degrees in the first 1/2 hour of burning the splits usually takes much longer than that.  I asked if he was going to insulate the whole chimney, he said there was no reason to, nothing would get past that five gallon pail full he stuffed up there. .... and still no block plate.  Hey, did you say your installer might come pay me a visit?  I told him we blew through two chords of wood, he agreed that was way too much, but never offered any apologies for the fact that is was HIS fault.  I'm not please.  The sensor is down near the floor, so that isn't the issue as to why it doesn't shut off.  Hey I'm SWEATING!   YEAH! 
As for the handle, do you think it's a good idea to have a different number of washers on the bottom than the top?  That doesn't seem right. He should have been able to get it to work with one washer out from top and bottom.  I think it needed to move the whole latch piece up or down.  There are some nice diagrams of the latch and how to adjust it in the manual, my husband my mess with that in the morning.  I clearly hadn't read the installation part, thought I didn't need to!  Silly me.  He never heard of adjusting that latch to make the door tighter.  you all are educating my installer, isn't that nice!

Oh, did I mention he IS an installer for Hampton?  I thougth I had chosen well......one of those "looks good on paper" situations!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

HEY CHECK OUT MY SECONDARIES....with almost no wood.  It's getting hotter and hotter!


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 30, 2009)

hey great news and good job!

what happens if you actually put some wood into that thing??


----------



## stejus (Jan 30, 2009)

CZARCAR said:
			
		

> i dont get it! isnt steel bar on top of firebox the secondaries & arent they sposed to flame?



The steel bar with holes in the picture at the top is an air inlet for the secondary air tubes (not shown in the pic).


----------



## stejus (Jan 30, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> He took that top piece off and stuffed some insulation up inside around the liner ( which IS a 6" ss flex)



SherryAnn, where did he stuff insulation?  Is it right above the stove near the damper area where your pipe enters the chimney?


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

CZARCAR said:
			
		

> i dont get it! isnt steel bar on top of firebox the secondaries & arent they sposed to flame?



That metal piece that you can see throught the door is Hampton's airwash system.....not that I understand how it works....but it keeps the glass clean.  The metal tubes you are talking about are at the top, but you can't see them.  As I understand it, and from what I saw on the youtube clips I was directed to by all the knowledgable people here, it is the burning of the gases inside the box.  Air comes out of those tubes cigniting the gases.  How my doing guys....am I learning?    So basically I have these dancing flames that are floating around, not flames from the wood that's on fire.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> hey great news and good job!
> 
> what happens if you actually put some wood into that thing??



Just did, I'll let you know after Kay and I nap. (Up all night for no good reason)  I loaded it up and I'm shutting down the air a bit at a time right now.  We're planning to snooze by the fire!


----------



## granpajohn (Jan 30, 2009)

I don't know why I started to follow this strangely lengthy thread, but....

1. Stuffing insulation at the usual location of the block off plate. Seems it should accomplish the same thing; only a question of durability in my mind. I mean if it's really stuffed good, thus no air moving through.
2. That said...speaking from experience....I think an exterior chimney in RI would like to be insulated. 
3. On the blower output. Have you tried measuring the temp of the air coming out the blower? There's a thread around here someplace about that. In rough numbers, it should almost burn your hand. (I melted a popcorn jar I was trying to dry in front of it once. Dang.)
4. After looking at the photos, I wanna offer my opinion that it's a beautiful insert in a nice stone FP. Even if it didn't burn well, the house resale value has to have been improved just on looks alone.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 30, 2009)

It is a ridiculously long thread, I admit to overfeeding it myself.  But i'm just happy she's finally getting some heat off the machine.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

stejus said:
			
		

> SherryAnn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, he took the top piece off and stuffed it right up at the start of the chimney where the damper used to be.  He put about a 5 gallon pail full in there.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 30, 2009)

granpajohn said:
			
		

> I don't know why I started to follow this strangely lengthy thread, but....
> 
> 1. Stuffing insulation at the usual location of the block off plate. Seems it should accomplish the same thing; only a question of durability in my mind. I mean if it's really stuffed good, thus no air moving through.
> 2. That said...speaking from experience....I think an exterior chimney in RI would like to be insulated.
> ...



I plan on insulating the whole thing, but I don't plan of having him do it.  I will try to measure temps, a friend suggested this with a meat thermometer.  Okay, that was hot.  It's seems about 160 degrees.  
It is beautiful, but for over 4k installed, better do more than look good!  I think I'm making progress now.


----------



## stejus (Jan 30, 2009)

ss="spellchecked_word">SherryAnn</SPAN> said:
			
		

> ss="spellchecked_word">stejus</SPAN> said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, better known as a softblock. A hard blockoff plate is a piece of sheet metal that closes off the damper area and insulation above it to keep the heat within the firebox. What you have is exactly what I did and I noticed some heat improvement.

Be aware of more chances of creosote build up now. Here is the reason why. Your stove pipe was being heated up by all the heat that was rising into your chimney. This kept your stove pipe warm. Now that you have reduced the amount of heat in your chimney flue, you will have more of a chance to build up creosote, especially the second upper half of the liner. 

This issue will all go away when you have the liner insulated. In the mean time here are the two most important things to reduce creosote build up (from the manual).

1) Burn insert with draft control wide open for about 45 minutes every morning during burning season. This helps to prevent creosote deposits within the heating system.
2) Burn insert with draft control wide open for about 10 - 15 minutes every time you add fresh wood. This allows the wood to achieve the charcoal stage faster and burns up any wood vapors which might otherwise be deposited within the system.

As for your door, you should have the same number of washers on top and bottom. I had the same problem when I removed one set of washers. I couldn't lock the door in place. It took a while finding the right spot to lock the bolts in place, but I found it. The door locks and no chance of a dollar bill coming out. I would revisit this issue for sure.

Glad to see things are improving!


----------



## wtb1 (Jan 30, 2009)

I am glad you have had success.  I am still working through mine and it sounds like I need to do the same thing.  I do not think my installer will be available since he is about 3 hours away.  Is this somethings I can do myself?  I know I will have to take the surround off and get access to the damper area.  If I use insulation as a softblock what is the best to use?


----------



## stejus (Jan 30, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> I am glad you have had success.  I am still working through mine and it sounds like I need to do the same thing.  I do not think my installer will be available since he is about 3 hours away.  Is this somethings I can do myself?  I know I will have to take the surround off and get access to the damper area.  If I use insulation as a softblock what is the best to use?



This is something you can do.  As a quick fix, go to Loews and get a bag of fiberglass. This does not have paper backing.   You may want two bags.  Take top surround off and get your arm up in there and stuff the insulation in the open damper area.  This will take all of about 15 minutes.

Then, do a search for other softblock insulation.  You have to order this online I guess and it could be a while before you actually get it.   Fiberglass will not burn, but may smell.  I've had mine in for about a month, no smell.


----------



## edthedawg (Jan 30, 2009)

I would recommend some mineral wool insulation (firesafing) if you can find it.  Not sure where it's available way down in MS.


----------



## pulldownclaw (Jan 31, 2009)

I think the issue with fiberglass is that it's got formaldehyde in it, which may (?) be released when subjected to those temps.  I can't recall exactly what the threat is, you may want to search the threads for it.  It certainly seems like a good temporary fix, but I don't think it's desirable long term.

This thread had got me thinking about my stove and its door latch adjustment.  I mentioned before that last year when I tried to adjust it I ended up breaking the handle off because it was so difficult to open and close.  I just did the dollar bill trick again tonight and there were several places where it slid right out.  So, I decided to adjust the latch again, and I am right back at the same place I was last year.  I just can't seem to find the right spacer combination with the right height of the latch.  I feel like I'm going to snap off the handle again when I adjust it too tight, then I loosen it up again and the dollar bill slides right out.  What a nightmare.  I think I'd rather have a leaky door than snap off my handle again, that was a major PITA.  One thing I did notice was I have some play in my door, if I lift on it, it moves up and down a little.  Is this just normal sag because of the weight?

Sorry for the hijack, I just thought I'd ask since we've got a lot of the Hampton crew already assembled.   ;-)


----------



## granpajohn (Jan 31, 2009)

^Somewhere around here is a fairly recent "oil the latch" thread, in which (long story short) several of us applied a couple drops of 3 in 1 oil to the latch and it worked miracles. One poster had the same worry about breaking the handle/latch. That was for more than just Quadrafires, but I don't recall if the Hampton was included. 

Anyway, try a little oil; it's like night-and-day.


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 31, 2009)

pulldownclaw said:
			
		

> Sorry for the hijack, I just thought I'd ask since we've got a lot of the Hampton crew already assembled.   ;-)



First of all, we are so health conscious, now I am nervous about the fumes from the insulation......I have three kids, do I want them breathing fumes like that?

Secondly, thanks for hijacking, we need to oil our handle too, it is a bit tight.

The afternoon I loaded at 2:45.  When we came home at 8:45, the stove was still quite hot and the house was still 73 on the whole first floor.  There is no doubt we have improvement here.  The stove would have been stone cold in three hours never mind 6.  Good news!

Thanks so much everyone!


----------



## stejus (Jan 31, 2009)

OK, for those HI300 owners having problems getting their stove to 300+, here's a sure way to get to 400/500. It works every time for me so I hope you can get there.

Stuff the stove like the second picture. Let burn like the first pic. Start knocking down slowly to 3/4 closed. Take your time getting there. Started at 300 degrees and 1 hour later, close to 500.

Try this and post your readings. Good luck!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 31, 2009)

At what point do you put the fan on?  We're just loading it up now for bedtime.  It seems like the fan should go on a few minutes after closing it down most of the way.  That seems to keep it the hottest am I right?  Those kinds of pictures are exactly what I need.  This is wood burning 101 at its best!


----------



## SherryAnn (Jan 31, 2009)

By the way.....you know that smell you get when the paint is curing?  I'm getting it now, six weeks later.  That's how NOT HOT my stove was......


----------



## cocey2002 (Jan 31, 2009)

Thats what I call stuffing the stove. Got to 400 this morning. Great pics. Sherry Ann- I am happy you got this thing working.


----------



## stejus (Jan 31, 2009)

Glad to see you got to 400 degrees and smell paint.  That means you've heated the stove to a point it hasn't seen before. I bet you can feel the heat now!

I do not run the blower when trying to raise the stove temp.  Once I get the stove to the right temp (400/500), I run it a while until I totally shut down.  

Remember, fan should only be used at full to half way closed.  No blower beyond the half way point.


----------



## granpajohn (Jan 31, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> By the way.....you know that smell you get when the paint is curing?  I'm getting it now, six weeks later.  That's how NOT HOT my stove was......



This is the proof in the pudding, (er, to use a scientific term). It proves:

1. SherryAnn was not imagining it all. (The thought probably entered the mind of the installer, I'll bet.)
2. It was not the quality of the wood.
3. The Hampton is capable of good heat output, even if at first it appears to fail.
4. Whatever steps were taken, they are important to remember. I wish they could be more definitively summarized. 

This thread is a keeper for Hampton owners.


----------



## johnn (Feb 1, 2009)

I must chime in !  I`ve been burning for only 4 years with a pre Epa insert of unknown maker. lots of trial and error until I found this Forum just recently. The knowledge is pouring in, though much of it has not been put into application.I intend to upgrade to a liner and modern burner and have been info searching many areas of wood burning.  Read entire thread last night,great input guy`s. The insulation seemed to fix things, GREAT,but I feel our firestarter is getting better at firing a cold stove after the picture`s were seen. Pay attention to the spacing between the splits; for that was not unintentional. Small details can yield big returns, and we must all take nothing for granted while learning, question any and all details.
  Your children of course the most important detail; plan on a hard plate in the future. once installed you can then finish the insulation of the remainder liner. Consider what was mentioned earlier  (vermiculite)(spl.?) a light substance often used under above ground pool liners, to soften the bottom when walking and to create a radius where the bottom turns up to meet the sides.You`ll need to bust out the mortor at the top of chimney then pour in the stuff until the void between your liner and flue is filled. then reseal top of chimney. This liner needs to retain heat in order to draft well and cut down on creosole deposits and achieve a clean burn.

  engine search.... fresh air intake for wood burners.. and learn about indoor and out door pressure differences, the effects possible.  Kitchen downdraft systems..bathroom vents ...cooking vents which vent outside could effect cold starts if on during this procedure. cracking window closest to stove during firing could cure or overide vents while firing and waiting for all things to come up to temperature. All depends on how air-tight your house is?

  engine search "forestry dept" get a BTU chart on wood burning, determine the best wood in your area according to chart, make calls if you are buying wood and ask what they claim to be selling, then learn how to recognize such wood`s you want to burn. Especially if you are not cutting yourself. You have an investment to reclaim, demand honorable service, but get you a moisture checker and when they deliver, take your axe, split a large split and check the fresh wood with your meter as you give em the "eye". Remember earlier thread "it`s all seasoned wood" don`t bet the house on it.

  When you get things burning right not knowing your floor plan, you may be in need of moving air (i am) Don`t try to move hot air out of room, try moving cold air into warm room. this will lower pressure in that cold area allowing warm air to migrate in. Hang Christmas tree tinsel from doorways, in order to better see how your house migrates air or if you can effect the flow with fans placed at strategic locations.

  Watch the weather and plan out ,moving,covering,uncovering of wood at friendly times, all of course blended in with the family obligations. Don`t get caught in a rain shower with your wood uncovered for more drying time.

  DETAIL`s;..detail`s.            good-luck


----------



## stejus (Feb 1, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> I must chime in !  I`ve been burning for only 4 years with a pre Epa insert of unknown maker. lots of trial and error until I found this Forum just recently. The knowledge is pouring in, though much of it has not been put into application.I intend to upgrade to a liner and modern burner and have been info searching many areas of wood burning.  Read entire thread last night,great input guy`s. The insulation seemed to fix things, GREAT,but I feel our firestarter is getting better at firing a cold stove after the picture`s were seen. Pay attention to the spacing between the splits; for that was not unintentional. Small details can yield big returns, and we must all take nothing for granted while learning, question any and all details.
> Your children of course the most important detail; plan on a hard plate in the future. once installed you can then finish the insulation of the remainder liner. Consider what was mentioned earlier  (vermiculite)(spl.?) a light substance often used under above ground pool liners, to soften the bottom when walking and to create a radius where the bottom turns up to meet the sides.You`ll need to bust out the mortor at the top of chimney then pour in the stuff until the void between your liner and flue is filled. then reseal top of chimney. This liner needs to retain heat in order to draft well and cut down on creosole deposits and achieve a clean burn.
> 
> engine search.... fresh air intake for wood burners.. and learn about indoor and out door pressure differences, the effects possible.  Kitchen downdraft systems..bathroom vents ...cooking vents which vent outside could effect cold starts if on during this procedure. cracking window closest to stove during firing could cure or overide vents while firing and waiting for all things to come up to temperature. All depends on how air-tight your house is?
> ...



Nice write up.  You are an experianced wood burner because you hit some major points.  I'm reading as many post's as possible to learn as much as I can in my first wood burning season.  Just came back from soaking in the hottub with my wife.  Nice to sit by my HI300 with her now and not hear her complain she's cold in the house


----------



## iceman (Feb 1, 2009)

i am glad you heat is coming out
but call me crazy.... but why would stuffing the damper with insulation make the stove cure?  her stove still shoulda got hot before just no heat into the house as it woulda gone up the chimney???
the top of cap area must not have been properly sealed to allow such extreme cooling of the liner so that simply stuffing insulation gave her draft?????
if so yoou must insulate the liner completely to really make it perform even better


----------



## edthedawg (Feb 1, 2009)

Iceman - you got it wrong, bud...  Adding insulation stopped the stove's heat that was going up around the liner.  That allowed portions of the stove which never before got hot to finally warm up to the curing temps.  The fire itself has been plenty hot all along - i'm sure this did nothing at all for her DRAFT.

Adding insulation now would likely help her with future cleaning as that uninsulated liner in her big exterior chimney is probably gonna condense a lot of creo.  luckily it sounds like her wood is pretty good.


----------



## cocey2002 (Feb 1, 2009)

Hey guys, just wondering how often you clean the glass on the Hampton? I can't believe how good the air wash system works. I must have burned over three cord thus far and only cleaned the glass maybe three times. I never get black stuff but more of a little haze. I am using seasoned oak that is measuring under 15% moisture.


----------



## cocey2002 (Feb 1, 2009)

stejus said:
			
		

> OK, for those HI300 owners having problems getting their stove to 300+, here's a sure way to get to 400/500. It works every time for me so I hope you can get there.
> 
> Stuff the stove like the second picture. Let burn like the first pic. Start knocking down slowly to 3/4 closed. Take your time getting there. Started at 300 degrees and 1 hour later, close to 500.
> 
> Try this and post your readings. Good luck!



Yep, the box must be laoded full just like your pics. With alittle space inbetween the splits. The secondary system works much better with a full box. At least for me I am unable to cut the air back below 50% without filling the box. Last night I was at around 25% and the secondaries were working nicely.


----------



## cocey2002 (Feb 1, 2009)

stejus said:
			
		

> Glad to see you got to 400 degrees and smell paint.  That means you've heated the stove to a point it hasn't seen before. I bet you can feel the heat now!
> 
> I do not run the blower when trying to raise the stove temp.  Once I get the stove to the right temp (400/500), I run it a while until I totally shut down.
> 
> Remember, fan should only be used at full to half way closed.  No blower beyond the half way point.



So what you are saying that once you close it down below 50% you turn the blower off? Aren't you losing a lot of heat? Your relying only on radiant heat of an insert to heat the house?


----------



## stejus (Feb 1, 2009)

cocey2002 said:
			
		

> stejus said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess I'm still learning in my first year and following manual to a tee. Once I get up to 400/500, there is enough radiant heat bellowing out and the brick is extremely hot as well. I do have a fan in my hallway blowing cool air into the room directly at the stove. I really think this helps because the cold air hits the stove and moves that heat away from the stove. If I'm really trying to heat hard (real cold weather), I will try to keep the stove going hard with 50% air and blower. If I am not struggling to generate heat, I just shut down about 3/4 to full and coast to maintain a comfortable level.

My family room and kitchen are almost considered one area on the first level. The Living/Dining room on the other side. I have a ceiling fan in the kitchen with temperature control. If the ceiling is above 74 degrees the ceiling fan will kick on and shut off once it hits 68.

So, air movement helps tremendously!


----------



## cocey2002 (Feb 1, 2009)

Last night I had the stove up to 400 could have went higher with the air cut back to around 25-35%. I turned on the fan (high) and it stayed in that range for a long time. I would say when you have the stove cooking to 400+ your losing a lot of heat not using the blower. Turning the blower on will lower stove temps but when you have it that hot I don't think it matters. I have a large ceiling fan in the same room as the stove- it helps a lot.


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 1, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> I must chime in !  I`ve been burning for only 4 years with a pre Epa insert of unknown maker. lots of trial and error until I found this Forum just recently. The knowledge is pouring in, though much of it has not been put into application.I intend to upgrade to a liner and modern burner and have been info searching many areas of wood burning.  Read entire thread last night,great input guy`s. The insulation seemed to fix things, GREAT,but I feel our firestarter is getting better at firing a cold stove after the picture`s were seen. Pay attention to the spacing between the splits; for that was not unintentional. Small details can yield big returns, and we must all take nothing for granted while learning, question any and all details.
> Your children of course the most important detail; plan on a hard plate in the future. once installed you can then finish the insulation of the remainder liner. Consider what was mentioned earlier  (vermiculite)(spl.?) a light substance often used under above ground pool liners, to soften the bottom when walking and to create a radius where the bottom turns up to meet the sides.You`ll need to bust out the mortor at the top of chimney then pour in the stuff until the void between your liner and flue is filled. then reseal top of chimney. This liner needs to retain heat in order to draft well and cut down on creosole deposits and achieve a clean burn.
> 
> engine search.... fresh air intake for wood burners.. and learn about indoor and out door pressure differences, the effects possible.  Kitchen downdraft systems..bathroom vents ...cooking vents which vent outside could effect cold starts if on during this procedure. cracking window closest to stove during firing could cure or overide vents while firing and waiting for all things to come up to temperature. All depends on how air-tight your house is?
> ...


Thanks for all the tips, I still have so much to learn.  The key is while blending with family obligations.  This has taken over a huge amount of my attention, and other things are suffereing!  All in good time!


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 1, 2009)

[quote author="stejus" date="1233472825
Nice write up.  You are an experianced wood burner because you hit some major points.  I'm reading as many post's as possible to learn as much as I can in my first wood burning season.  Just came back from soaking in the hottub with my wife.  Nice to sit by my HI300 with her now and not hear her complain she's cold in the house [/quote]

Now I'm jealous of your pile of rounds and your hot tub.  Always remember if the woman is happy, everyone is happy! 
We are now hunting for more wood.....I can't wait for next winter when we know what we are doing!

Here's a question, can you use any glass cleaner on the glass?  The door stay pretty clean, but sometimes I need to get a bit of white film off.


----------



## snowtime (Feb 1, 2009)

Glass cleaner will work of course but I just use a wet sponge and wipe  the streaks of with paper towels. I usually only get white haze and clean about once a month.


----------



## leepster (Feb 1, 2009)

I was told NOT to use glass cleaner. They said it will put little scratches in the glass and will cause it to break. Use the stove glass cleaner. Should be able to buy it at any hardware store. Also this post helped me alot. found the my flue baffle plates were not installed when the company put the stove in. just checked under my coals and there they are still in the bottom of the stove. So I hope that will get some heat in the house after I get those in the right spot.


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 1, 2009)

leepster said:
			
		

> I was told NOT to use glass cleaner. They said it will put little scratches in the glass and will cause it to break. Use the stove glass cleaner. Should be able to buy it at any hardware store. Also this post helped me alot. found the my flue baffle plates were not installed when the company put the stove in. just checked under my coals and there they are still in the bottom of the stove. So I hope that will get some heat in the house after I get those in the right spot.



I saw it at Benny's (Benny's has everything!)  but I wondered if there was a real purpose......thanks!  It is AMAZING that you can't trust anyone to do anything.  you have to become an expert in every field just to be sure you're not getting screwed!  Glad you figured that out!  Good luck!  BTW...I am SWEATING!  It is 82.4 degrees where the insert is, I loaded it 2 hours ago...NICE!


----------



## johnn (Feb 2, 2009)

Thank`s, I have shoveled a few ashes! So tell me, is the Hi300 lined with soap or brick? Also if you know, was your flue opening enlarged for the liner smashed into an oval. How many BTU for this burner?


----------



## leepster (Feb 2, 2009)

Havent got room temp above 70 yet but now I have to relearn how to work the stove, I may have to insulate mine also. I guess I'll find out tomorrow. Oh, and on of my baffles is cracked, so now I have to call the installer and tell them they screwed up and now I need parts, UGH.


----------



## johnn (Feb 2, 2009)

Edthedawg said:
			
		

> Iceman - you got it wrong, bud...  Adding insulation stopped the stove's heat that was going up around the liner.  That allowed portions of the stove which never before got hot to finally warm up to the curing temps.  The fire itself has been plenty hot all along - i'm sure this did nothing at all for her DRAFT.
> 
> Adding insulation now would likely help her with future cleaning as that uninsulated liner in her big exterior chimney is pr
> obably gonna condense a lot of creo.  luckily it sounds like her wood is pretty good.



  Seems some of us still wonder "what`s up"
  first... A 5 gallon bucket of insulation quote from earlier thread... Is not much... but a roll of store-bought about the size of 5 gallons is a much larger pile.Enough where I would dread having to reach past my sourround having been removed, and get it all up that relative small opening. How much could really be up there? Use a stick to push it on up?...How long could that stick have been???
  those pipes cool seriously fast people...creo is real... finish the job.
 I keep seeing a pot of boiling water sending a columne of steam up.. that represents no insulation.. now put a lid on it and that represents your insulation no more steam rising... but the pot temp never changed...I still wonder!

  What I don`t wonder about is that...Hampton spent thousands, and more of em, to develope this technology of secondary-burn, wash systems,(i wish i could see past my doors) ect.,ect.   to conform to EPA and be competitive with thease cleaner burning fuels and stay in the market... why can`t they answer the simple questions they found answers to long ago?


----------



## wtb1 (Feb 2, 2009)

Got up Sunday morning to a bed of good coals and decided to see how hot I could get the stove.  Rake the caols to the front, loaded the stove to the gills.  After fifteen minutes I had a good burn going and started to back down on the air.  After an hour or so I had the air almost all the way off, good some secondary burn going on and the stove barely got to 300.  My wood is 15% moisture or below, good draft.  I have decided that I need a block off (soft or hard).  I called my installer Friday and he is supposed to get back with me today but I do know a block off wa snot installed at the baffle area.


----------



## Chettt (Feb 2, 2009)

Mississippi, how cold was it during your experiment? Cold, cold air outside helps the draft.


----------



## wtb1 (Feb 2, 2009)

H ave tried on several cold night (course cold being relative to where you are  ) and get the same results.


----------



## stejus (Feb 2, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> Got up Sunday morning to a bed of good coals and decided to see how hot I could get the stove. Rake the caols to the front, loaded the stove to the gills. After fifteen minutes I had a good burn going and started to back down on the air. After an hour or so I had the air almost all the way off, good some secondary burn going on and the stove barely got to 300. My wood is 15% moisture or below, good draft. I have decided that I need a block off (soft or hard). I called my installer Friday and he is supposed to get back with me today but I do know a block off wa snot installed at the baffle area.



A softblock-off plate (insulation) will help to some degree. I think your stove liner is too cold in the AM.

Try this next time in the AM.  Turn off blower. Rake coals forward. Lay 3 good size splits on the coals (n/s direction). Burn wide open for 45 to 60 minutes. You should have three good burning splits/coals within 45 minutes and a temp around 325/350. Stuff the stove and let it rip wide open again until all wood is burning good. Start backing down slowly. The goal is to keep the fire going during the shut down. By the time you pass half way, you should have some serious secondary burn and its all down hill from there. I usually have 4 or 5 stages to knocking it down completely.


----------



## wtb1 (Feb 2, 2009)

I Have tried that as well (the night before) and the stove never gets above 300 (at its absolute hottest)  I have an external chimney with a liner installed with no blockoff plate.  I believe all the heat from the insert is going right up the chimney instead of sticking around and heating my house.  The very top of the chimney has insulation around it but there is a very large air column.

One question I do have about the Hampton inserts.  Where does the combustion air come from?  I was told it pulls in external air but from where?


----------



## stejus (Feb 2, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> I Have tried that as well (the night before) and the stove never gets above 300 (at its absolute hottest)  I have an external chimney with a liner installed with no blockoff plate.  I believe all the heat from the insert is going right up the chimney instead of sticking around and heating my house.  The very top of the chimney has insulation around it but there is a very large air column.
> 
> One question I do have about the Hampton inserts.  Where does the combustion air come from?  I was told it pulls in external air but from where?



I could be wrong, but my guess would be on the sides of the stove.  If you look at the base of the stove, on the sides, there is an opening the runs along the bottom.   I would imagine it pulls in air from these locations.  I don't see anywhere else on the stove where it could possibly enter.


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 2, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> I Have tried that as well (the night before) and the stove never gets above 300 (at its absolute hottest)  I have an external chimney with a liner installed with no blockoff plate.  I believe all the heat from the insert is going right up the chimney instead of sticking around and heating my house.  The very top of the chimney has insulation around it but there is a very large air column.
> 
> One question I do have about the Hampton inserts.  Where does the combustion air come from?  I was told it pulls in external air but from where?



I was having the exact same problem, now that I have the insulation in, we get it to 350 or 400 everytime we burn and our wood is lasting MUCH longer.  

Am I misunderstanding or is someone saying they still don't think my "fix" is a good one?  I do understand that we need to insulate the whole chimney, but is this okay for now as long as we make sure to burn wide open for an hour or so each morning.

Remember that bit hole behind my insert?  The other night when we loaded it up, I could see the stainless steel liner in there all glowing hot.  A bit too hot maybe now?  I haven't loaded it that much since Sat night.


----------



## iceman (Feb 2, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> Edthedawg said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




i just found it hard to believe but i guess it makes sense??  because of a soft block-off plate the stove got warmer???  that is draft it was not enough because too much cold air was cooling the pipes not allowing the stove to really heat up...  right?  thats the reason??  with a raging fire the stove still shoulda got hot enough to cure it... the heat just goes up the chimney??
so... do to her lack of insulation, it allowed to much cold air down the sides of the pipe in which the pipe wasn't able to get hot enough to "draw up" with any intensity.... i guess ... just trying figure it out


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 3, 2009)

iceman said:
			
		

> ml said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Someone said earilier, the proof was in the pudding....I don't know as much as everyone else about draft and what not, all I can tell you is that with the same wood, and the same burning practices, my house is about 5 degrees (2 floor 1700sq feet) warmer since we put that insulation in.  It seems like we were heating the whole masonry chimney, and the insulation helped the heat stay in the firebox.  Am I simplifying it too much?  Please don't detect sarcasm, I don't actually know, just learning.  All I can tell you is my problem is a whole lot better now and that I will be insulating the rest of the chimney as soon as I can figure out what to put in there, so as not to creat a creosote problem.    Seems hard to believe that something so simple could have made such a huge difference, but it did!  I wasn't even confident it was going to work, but my thermometer in this room says it is 82.2 degrees!!


----------



## granpajohn (Feb 3, 2009)

Well written, SA.

The search engine will sorta list this as an insulation thread, but I think it's really a block off plate thread.

Sherry Ann, if you get a chance, try looking over some of the many words written here about block off plates, especially when exterior chimneys are involved.


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 3, 2009)

granpajohn said:
			
		

> Well written, SA.
> 
> The search engine will sorta list this as an insulation thread, but I think it's really a block off plate thread.
> 
> Sherry Ann, if you get a chance, try looking over some of the many words written here about block off plates, especially when exterior chimneys are involved.


Will do, thanks!


----------



## stejus (Feb 3, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> Remember that bit hole behind my insert?  The other night when we loaded it up, I could see the stainless steel liner in there all glowing hot.  A bit too hot maybe now?  I haven't loaded it that much since Sat night.



That glowing flex pipe is a sign of overfiring.  I have seen mine do it a couple of times as well.  Now I know within 10 to 15 minutes, based on how it's burning, to turn it down.  If you ever see a red glow in the air chamber (where the air blows out of the stove), shut down fully and put the blower on Manual High.  

Back to what you need to do next.  My set up is identical to yours.    Here's what my sweep says I need to do next.

1. Insulate liner - this will reduce creosote buildup.  In order to do this now that the stove is in place and the liner is connected, he has two options.  
A. Remove stove and install block off plate, re-install stove.
or 
B. From the outside, remove brick and install blockoff plate just above smoke shelf, re-install bricks.
and
C. Pour in insulation from the top.  This is like kitty litter and it will fill in between the flex liner and clay flue.

I was quoted $300 for the job.

Oh, another thing.  If you haven't ordered next years wood, start planning now.  I already have 3 cords for next season 2009/2010.  I hope to get 2 more in Feb if the snow melts a little.    Then in the spring, 5 more cords for 2010/2011.   This is a lot of wood up front, but once you build your inventory, you will never be without seasoned wood.


----------



## johnn (Feb 3, 2009)

granpajohn said:
			
		

> Well written, SA.
> 
> The search engine will sorta list this as an insulation thread, but I think it's really a block off plate thread.
> 
> Sherry Ann, if you get a chance, try looking over some of the many words written here about block off plates, especially when exterior chimneys are involved.


  Goodness No SA ,your not misunderstood! If I knew as much as I unintentionally implied I do, then I wouldn`t be trying to come to terms as to how this works. And Work it did! I`m so glad for you, good job stickin.

  It appears with this scenario, that maintaining heat the first few feet of pipe allows the burner to develope more inside!

  I still say Hampton figured all this out during real time trials and could have been more helpful? I`m thankful however, that you initiated this thread in order we all may benefit!

  There has been so much written about cold firing and shutting down...Do you feel your technique has changed enough to also have impacted the results?


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 3, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> granpajohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Most of the posts took place over five days before I had the insulation put in.  During that time, I was trying all the techniques everyone was suggesting, and they were not helping.  The second the insulation was put in-BINGO!  It all worked.  So my technique improved before the problem improved.  You are so right, Hampton's manual and tech support online are not helpful.  I have NOTHING good to say about the person who answers the emails there.   I waited very long for very short unhelpful responses, a disgrace really.  I should write a lengthy letter to them about that.


----------



## wtb1 (Feb 3, 2009)

Broke down and went to Lowes and got some R30 insulation.  I removed the upper trim piece and was able to stuff insulation up into the damper area.  I tried to make sure I had it filled as best I could without removing the insert.  It was 8:45pm before I could build a fire so quickly got some wood and kindling and started one.  I could tell a difference.  Not quite as dramatic as I was hoping as it took a while to get the stove up to 300 and I think it maxed out at about 310 to 315 but I was not really trying too hard.  Once I got my kindling going I added to splits to start building heat.  Once it had kinda died out I put the bigger splits and some rounds in the box to fill most of it up.  It took off and I was backing the air down after 7 to 8 minutes.  Temps rose and maxed at about 310 (hottest I have gotten it so far).  I think I could have gotten hotter had I let this round die down and stuffed the box again.  I did see more secondaries and with the air shut almost all the way I still had "lazy" flames and secondaries firing from the back of the box.

One question tho...  Do you routinely see your secondary burn tubes glowing red?


----------



## johnn (Feb 3, 2009)

[quote author="wtb1" date="1233691534"]Broke down and went to Lowes and got some R30 insulation.  I removed the upper trim piece and was able to stuff insulation up into the damper area.  I tried to make sure I had it filled as best I could without removing the insert.  It was 8:45pm before I could build a fire so quickly got some wood and kindling and started one.  I could tell a difference.  Not quite as dramatic as I was hoping as it took a while to get the stove up to 300 and I think it maxed out at 

  I`m not able to answer question about tubes..,my stove is pre EPA,however my intention`s are to upgrade so I have read many threads even old ones,knowing I will soon experience this issue so many have. What I find in common among all threads is the issue of "seasoned" and stages of shutting down...how much? ...when?. My unlined burner will through heat from a bic lighter,however I lose much burn time and gain no lasting heat after fuel is burn`t. I know with my burner...that rounds are more difficult to get burning well, (maybe due to the bark), however I love the extended time in which they burn in my insert!Perhaps wait a little latter before putting them in? 
from what I`ve read,..maybe rethink your impression of a full burn and wait a little longer before shutting down and reloading??? I don`t recall anyone getting secondaryburn in the 300 range? I`ve read so much I could be confusing myself?  On a positive note it`s good to read that once again the insulation at least helps. Never knew that moisture content effects the coal size in the bed...something good to know! I`m torn between another insert or going with an add on wood burner for my central heat... If I ever decide I think I`ll go with a steel firebox for I`m quite certain my wife does not have the interest or patience to see through the necessary time and steps of firing a lined box.


----------



## stejus (Feb 3, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> One question tho...  Do you routinely see your secondary burn tubes glowing red?



On my HI300 I get my tubes glowing at times.  This only happens on a full load and in the beginning stages of knocking the air down.  They eventually stop glowing once the air is limited, but still do their job!


----------



## wtb1 (Feb 3, 2009)

Mine glow when I get a full load going and start knocking the air down as well.  I get good secondaries going but the stove top temp where I have my thermometer still reads about 300 to 310.  The stove is hot (cannot stand in front of it too long).  I may try not cutting the air back as quickly and see if that helps.


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 3, 2009)

wtb1 said:
			
		

> Mine glow when I get a full load going and start knocking the air down as well.  I get good secondaries going but the stove top temp where I have my thermometer still reads about 300 to 310.  The stove is hot (cannot stand in front of it too long).  I may try not cutting the air back as quickly and see if that helps.



That helped me a lot.  I was cutting the air down all the way in about 15 mins.  If you make the process take 45, you will get much hotter,...most likely.....


----------



## iceman (Feb 3, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> iceman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






i hear ya but that was a band aid somewhere in your installation (setup) air was cooling your chimney... maybe your chimney has a crack /hole OR the installer did not seal the top of the chimney where your liner exits...... yes we already know you need to get your liner insulated....
but my point was you did not get enough draft going up.... but you did have roaring fires before, if you remember someone did ask if cold air was coming down the chimney... however, you were not getting enough heat out... i would def suggest the block-off plate as you know but i really think there was/is something not sealed or cracked that your installer missed when first putting in the stove..  in my opinion..... BUT when you get it lined i am sure it will get taken care of... did the installer even check your lintel before he installed the stove? when you get the chimney insulated make sure they thoroughly check out your chimney inside and out ..


----------



## SherryAnn (Feb 4, 2009)

iceman said:
			
		

> i hear ya but that was a band aid somewhere in your installation (setup) air was cooling your chimney... maybe your chimney has a crack /hole OR the installer did not seal the top of the chimney where your liner exits...... yes we already know you need to get your liner insulated....
> but my point was you did not get enough draft going up.... but you did have roaring fires before, if you remember someone did ask if cold air was coming down the chimney... however, you were not getting enough heat out... i would def suggest the block-off plate as you know but i really think there was/is something not sealed or cracked that your installer missed when first putting in the stove..  in my opinion..... BUT when you get it lined i am sure it will get taken care of... did the installer even check your lintel before he installed the stove? when you get the chimney insulated make sure they thoroughly check out your chimney inside and out ..



I need to get someone other than my current installer here to have a good look.  Do you think it is wise to do this now, or can I wait until Spring? I'd of course rather wait until spring.  We are in so much cash for this already.......... I guess the best way to go is to post a new thread (this one IS a bit long!) asking if anyone has a great installer in RI, unless of course any of you reading this has an excellent installer in RI.  I should also go back to my inspection report from when we moved here five years ago, he was very thorough, took 8 hours to inspect.  Any thoughts as to why I can't keep the house as warm when it's windy?


----------



## iceman (Feb 4, 2009)

SherryAnn said:
			
		

> iceman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




as we are in feb i would wait till spring but get it checked out.....
the wind is having an effect on the draft, you had a bad draft problem before.. it is common for some people to have issues when its windy and some actually get better performance when its windy


----------

