# Garn Boiler Feedback Please



## woodlady

Hi,

I am seriously contemplating getting a Garn Boiler, does anyone have feedback about them?

Thanks!! 

Woodlady


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## TMonter

I've seen several in Alaska and they worked really well. They burned clean and seemed to do exactly what they advertised. What impressed me the most was the lack of smoke when operating compared to the other OWB's I've seen.

I believe I have some pictures I took of them in Alaska I'll see if I can dig them up.


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## woodlady

Hi Tmonter,
Thanks much, would love to see the photos, those garns are quite the "big boys".  Do you remember how large the homes are that were heated by them? My house is large, sprawly and not well insulated....


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## Burn-1

Woodlady,

There is a nice ~10 minute or so video featuring a Garn installation in northern Minnesota on Youtube. 

Garn Wood heating system

They look nice but the need to be around for two hours while firing it doesn't really excite me.


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## woodlady

oh,  I was not aware that one needs to "hang out" and moniter for 2 hours of the 4 hour burn, hmmm, haven't seen the video, need to check that out.  Thhe 2 hour babysit will not work for me at all times, ....  next??


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## carbon neutral

I don't believe you have to "hang out" with the garn for two hours.  In fact I would say of the clean burning wood boilers they are one of the easier to operate as they do not have as many levers, i.e no bypass lever no primary secondary air controls.  Get the fire started and it burns all out until the wood supply is exhausted, in the video they re-stoked the fire after two hours.  The video was filmed in Minnesota and the garn was heating a 5,000 square foot house.  In other words it had a large demand on it, in a smaller house or warmer climate it may not have been necessary to add more wood to the fire.  That being said my biggest problem with them is their size.  You would need to a 10' by 6' space inside a shed or some other protected space, this doesn't include space for working around the unit.  I also wonder about the efficiency of the the tank, even though it is well insulated it will radiate out heat.  That heat is going to be wasted if the garn is located in an area that is not desired to be heated.  Personally I feel a smaller boiler located outside the house with heat storage located inside the house is a better solution, the wood mess stays outside the house, the heat goes inside the house.  The flexibility of moving a small wood boiler around is also appealing to me as I never know when I may move, remodel, whatever.  The smallest unit weighs 3,550#'s empty and 15,400#' full!  My only other concern would be they are made of relatively thin 3/16" carbon steel.  Most wood boilers tarm, eko etc are made of 1/4", the best AHS use 1/4" 304 stainless.  I think the garn unit would be ok because it only runs hot and doesn't cycle, apparently cycling is what will kill a carbon steel boiler.   I have never heard of anyone complaining about early failures or short life spans but I also do not know anyone who owns one.


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## Eric Johnson

I think the biggest danger to carbon steel boilers is low temp return water corrosion. Garn says that because their tank is so big, it can be welded from the inside, which apparently results in a better weld. I don't know if that's true, but that's what I've heard.

I really think, woodlady, that you should do a little more research with an eye towards upgrading your insulation. Insulation is a lot cheaper than boiler plate.

If I were you, I'd hire a heating professional to do what's called a heat loss calculation on your house, combined with an analysis of where you could add insulation to make it more efficient. Then you'll know how big your boiler needs to be. I seriously doubt that you will wind up needing anything more than an EKO 60 or a Tarm Solo 60, but nobody knows that until you do that heat loss calc. The size of your existing gas or oil boiler (I think you mentioned in your PM that it's a 285K btu Buderus) is probably irrelevant. Most boiler installations tend to be way oversized for a variety of reasons. And I also doubt that you will be faced with loading whatever you decide to buy every 4 or 5 hours. I think 8-12 is probably a more realistic estimate.

My approach has always been to compensate for a lack of insulation in the houses I've owned by heating with wood, which I get for cheap or free. However, I always insulate what I can, because over the long run, it's a lot cheaper and easier than burning a lot of wood. But old houses can be hard to insulate completely, so wood is the way to go, IMO.


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## carbon neutral

I would second Erics opinion about insulation.  It will cut down on the amount of work you will have to do cutting wood or the amount of money you spend on oil/gas.  Also the comfort level in the house will be greatly improved with even temperatures in the house.  I grew up in an uninsulated house that was originally intended to be a summer only house, no matter how much heat you threw into that house there were cold spots and when the wind blew the drafts were terrible.


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## carbon neutral

I think the biggest danger to carbon steel boilers is low temp return water corrosion. Garn says that because their tank is so big, it can be welded from the inside, which apparently results in a better weld. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s what I’ve heard. 

When I spoke to tarm they talked about the cold water returns causing problems, which is why they require the termovar valve which keeps the return water temps up.  Eko has a similar valve with a different name.  When I spoke to AHS they said any carbon steel boiler that cycles will fail it is just a matter of time.  When the boiler is in the off cycle acidic gases condense on the boiler walls and eat away at them, this is why they switched to stainless.  I was told they inspected one of their boilers that was in use for 15 years and it still had slag from the welds and showed absolutely no wear.  I also heard from a tarm owner whose fire box failed after only 6 years use, he did not use heat storage and the boiler cylced a lot.


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## Eric Johnson

A mixing valve is the most common way to protect the boiler, but I went with simpler approach, which involves pumping water from the top of the boiler to the return so that it mixes with the return water and keeps the temps above 120, which is where you start to have the condensation problems you described so well, clarkharms. Cycling also tends to produce more creosote in the firebox, which my manual says will hurt the boiler if you don't clean it off periodically.

Saying that it's just a matter of time before a boiler fails is a pretty meaningless statement. It's something AHS should know all about--since that design failed on a regular basis when it was made of carbon steel. The stainless firebox is nice and the thing is built like a tank, but for around $11,000 for a 120K btu boiler and no guarantees on the suspect design, I'd rather spend $6,000 on a proven design like the Tarm and set it up like they suggest. Then you get a 20-year warranty.

With a Garn you've got 1,500 gallons of onboard hot water storage. After you get it up to temp, I doubt that the water at the return tapping ever gets down to 120, so it may not be an issue. Also, it pays to remember that the Garn is non-pressurized, so you're talking water treatment chemicals and a big heat exchanger if you have a regular pressurized system in your house.


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## carbon neutral

Does anyone know the ball park figure for a garn unit?  I have heard they are in the $15k range, including delivery and set up, if so that would be a major factor to consider.


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## Eric Johnson

The one I saw retails for $12,000, I believe. Not sure if that includes shipping, but that's gotta cost some bucks, too. Definitely no set-up at that price. Plus, then you have to basically build a building around it. I'm not knocking it--just making a comparison to some of the more familiar alternatives.


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## carbon neutral

I would also wonder about the potential for the boiler water freezing if the owner went away.  Granted it would take a while to freeze 1200 or so gallons of water in the boiler but probably not so long to freeze the lines running to the house, even if buried below the frost level the lines would need to go from the unit to below the ground and would likely freeze there first.  I plan on using anti freeze in my wood boiler so I can travel and not worry about such things.  I believe an eko 40 holds 25 gallons of water another 10 for the line set and heat exchanger= 35 gallons at 50% mix is about 18 gallons of anti freeze 6 bucks a gallon = $108 for piece of mind.  600 or so gallons of anti freeze for a garn unit = too much.  I travel a lot and for months at a time  so this would be a concern for me.  I also am not trying to put down a good unit just trying to expose some of the designs weekness's.


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## Eric Johnson

I ran glycol in my old system and it worked well, except that I had to use a heat exchanger to get the heat into my gas boiler and zones, so that complicated things and cut into the response time. It takes a few times through the heat exchanger to match a direct connection, heat transfer-wise. But the peace of mind is worth a lot. My current setup is a direct connection to the gas boiler, so it's all water. I have a strategy for keeping the wood boiler and lines from freezing when I'm not around to fire it. Basically, that involves constant circulation and allowing a small amount of hot water from the gas-fired boiler to flow into the wood side of the equation. That and lots of good insulation.

The EKO is pretty well insulated. I'd guess it would take a couple of days for it to cool off enough for ice to become a problem. But like you say, it's the lines that you need to worry about. I also thought about running a piece of heat tape inside the pipe enclosure, along with the insulation. I don't think it will be necessary, but it's worth considering.

Finally, if you go with glycol, make sure you fill your system with water for the first couple of weeks so that you can pressure test it, make sure everything vents properly and locate any leaks in the piping. They can take a couple of heating cycles to appear. You don't want to be draining the glycol mix and trying to get it back in. Trust me on that.


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## woodlady

Thanks everyone,     Yes, I am going to do as much insulating of my home as I can.   The Garn unit does have to be in an insulated space and it sits on a piece of blueboard insulation on top of the cement pad.  I have been speaking with the owner of the company, he is very informative.  The price quote I got was around $9000, shipping is an additional $850.  What's appealing to me is that it has a horizontal direct vent chimney which will save me big$$ not having to install 30 feet of double insulated pipe in my home....  The price I got for the Tarm with the 800+ gallon storage tank was $14,000  (wow!)  I had been quoted thousands less three years ago.  If we had bought shares/futures in copper we'd be sitting pretty right now....
I did speak with a rep at EKO, he offered me an allinone outdoor unit for $14,000 that they had been using for demo.  Apparently it is good to go, doesn't need a shed, had water storage, I believe only 120 gallons, sounds as though it is close to the size of the Garn.  So for me, the Garn is the best bet financially.  I too, am concerned with a freezeup although due to work and child I'm not going anywhere in the winter.  If we have a power outage, we do have a generator.  Garn's delivery at this point is 8 weeks so I think I will wait until the spring for this "big boy".  I tried to look up a unit called "Black Bear" which is new and was tested by a laboratory along with Garn and had very low emmission numbers - but, their website will not come up, hmm...
You guys are all very handy with your alternatives for heat storage and the likes, I am not in your league and need to get a system that is a package/manufacturer deal...


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## Eric Johnson

That sounds like a good price. As you point out, the chimney is another plus with the Garn. You might want to get an estimate from a heating specialist for what it will cost to connect the Garn to your house hydronics. I'm guessing around $3,000 parts and labor, but maybe more when you factor in the heat exchanger. I'd be interesting in hearing what the actual quote is.


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## woodlady

I would be getting the "smallest" unit - 350,000 Btus (yikes) I have a good friend who is a plumber who will do the job for me.  We will be dumping the water from the Garn into my Buderus, running about 30' underground to get there.  I have to apply for a variance to even be able to put the Garn next to my house, which is going to be a whole process.  I live in Woodstock,NY and my neighbors are real control freaks...


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## carbon neutral

That is a good price.  I don't know why tarms and ekos have gotten so expensive I first started looking at tarms in 2003 and they must have gone up at least 20% since then.  One other question about the garn.  Did they give you guidelines for wood moisture content and size?


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## Eric Johnson

I think it's the exchange rate and the price of steel. The EKO 60 has gone up about $1,000 over the past 8 months. Bet it's the same story with the Tarm. The Garn is built in the U.S., so they see some benefit.


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## woodlady

the moisture content of the wood must be low, I believe 15-20%  One has to have a years' supply of wood ready a year in advance.  I believe the log length is 30" but I'm not sure of that(could be longer) maximum diameter of wood in order for it to burn properly is 8".
The price of steel and copper has gone sky high since Katrina and the boom in China....    The steel used in the Garn is domestic.  Some of the steel in China is mixed with radioactive steel from old munitions factories.  There was actually a recall from Lazy Boy chairs, the springs in them were from the tainted steel from China and customers were getting ill.


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## Nofossil

woodlady said:
			
		

> Some of the steel in China is mixed with radioactive steel from old munitions factories.  There was actually a recall from Lazy Boy chairs, the springs in them were from the tainted steel from China and customers were getting ill.



Do you have a reference for this recall? I can't find anything about it. If it's true, it would be amazing. In order for people to get enough of a radiation dose to get sick, the springs would have to be 'hot' enough to almost glow in the dark. 

Part of the reason I ask is that we tend to get freaked out about radiation, and perhaps make some poor choices as a result. There's a lot we don't understand.

This reference to contaminated steel sounds like a parallel to another story. They had a big scandal in Taiwan years ago when they built apartment buildings from contaminated steel. People lived in them for 20 years before anyone discovered that radiation levels inside the buildings were WAY above what was considered safe. A long-term study of people who lived there showed a dramatic reduction in birth defects and cancer rates compared to the general population.

Maybe I should buy one of those La-Z-Boy chairs....


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## woodlady

I read about the steel issue years ago, I believe in the Nation or Mother Jones plus I saw something in our health food store many years back.  You can do a search on google if you check for "radioactive steel from China" or such.  It is happening and it is out there, and here.  I remember my husband making a joke about using a geiger counter to check cookware before buying....  unfortunately the world is in a sad state - money, power and profits seem to be the motivating forces with many governments and corporations.


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## drizler

I recall something I read a few years back about the US decommissioning one of our old nuclear facilities.  The story went on to say that they were going to sell the old reactor parts for scrap and blend them in with regular steel  scrap so as not to waste the hundreds of tons of steel.   I don't know of how it eventually got distributed but I am pretty sure its all over the place as well though in vastly watered down quantity.   I have never seen any raidoactive steel coming into the US from Canada but one load that set off our alarms a  couple weeks ago.   You would be amazed at how much radiation is in loads of stone and especailly grinding wheels and abrasive materials.  That stuff is loaded with it .    Good reason to check your basement for radon gas intrusion.     I like the way the Chinese article states that there is no more  and in fact less cancer risk posed to the residents of those buildings.     The Chinese can eat lead paint too and it won't bother them one bit....................Keep dreamin.


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## Nofossil

Driz said:
			
		

> I recall something I read a few years back about the US decommissioning one of our old nuclear facilities.  The story went on to say that they were going to sell the old reactor parts for scrap and blend them in with regular steel  scrap so as not to waste the hundreds of tons of steel.   I don't know of how it eventually got distributed but I am pretty sure its all over the place as well though in vastly watered down quantity.   I have never seen any raidoactive steel coming into the US from Canada but one load that set off our alarms a  couple weeks ago.   You would be amazed at how much radiation is in loads of stone and especailly grinding wheels and abrasive materials.  That stuff is loaded with it .    Good reason to check your basement for radon gas intrusion.     I like the way the Chinese article states that there is no more  and in fact less cancer risk posed to the residents of those buildings.     The Chinese can eat lead paint too and it won't bother them one bit....................Keep dreamin.



Getting pretty far afield from Garn boiler feedback, but I just can't let go.

If you don't have an open mind, stop here and don't waste any more of your time. Otherwise, ask yourself what it would take to make you question what you think you know. If you can accept that what you know might be wrong, let me suggest that there are lots of things we don't understand yet.

Our understanding of the world takes a step forward whenever someone discovers something that everyone knows 'just ain't so". Every major breakthrough fits this pattern. We all know that radiation and toxic chemicals are bad for us at any dosage....right?

Here's an interesting article that discusses the issue and research in a very readable way. The study I referenced a couple of posts back was Taiwan, not China, and the results are as far as I can tell, unquestionable. It's somewhat heavy reading, but fascinating.

Here's a link to a  list of studies from all around the world that raise the same questions., with complete footnotes and references. I've read many of them.

As you would expect, there are still lots of people who still know that it 'just ain't so'. Read the studies - read the counter-arguments - make up your own mind.


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## woodlady

Well, I started it....  read the article about homesis, no surprise to me, along the lines of what I think is out there, we are just scratching the surface when it comes to science, nature and the world we live in.  The biggest obstacle is closed minds...  Plus the drug industry that ignores or trys to shut down what it con't control/make money off of... I believe that radiation at too high a level can be a mutagen, lower, well, what about the sun?

For me, I am clinging to the last rays of evening sun and our newfound warmer falls and dreading the winter when all doors Must be closed and I'm wearing layers to keep warm.  I can't even get my Garn this year, need the wood now for next year, by the way, wood is getting Hard to find here - is life Ever easy??  With a name Hearth and Home, well golly, that's really the crux of our existence so to be discussing homesis is par for the course!!


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## TCaldwell

im glad to see im not alone in the fundamental , basically addicting game of wood heating, I have read and appreciate, meaning feel your pain in this pursuit and can`t  abstain any longer. My name is tom caldwell, live in nw ct. and am held hostage by a garn model  1900,actually very satisfied. I would welcome any inquiries .


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## Eric Johnson

Welcome to Hearth.com and the Boiler Room, Tom. Glad you could make it.

The Garn is an interesting approach, especially considering the onboard heat storage. And you gotta like the fact that it's manufactured in the U.S.

You might want to start a Garn thread. I think Google will deliver the interested parties.


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## TCaldwell

Eric, i view the garn as a  sleeper, highly engineered , repeatedly tested , however almost mideval in appearance, id like to say classical in approach. It still took me approx 1 year of trial and error to integrate properly into existing oil system and I could probably pipe a whole new system with the spare parts on hand, a child takes less time in the womb, and my wife is very patient.All kidding aside i chose it for its simplicity but am always thinking  of a better mousetrap.


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## woodlady

Hi Tom,   what problems/challenges did you face with connecting the Garn to your existing system?  How big is your home and how much wood do you burn?  also, how often to you feed it? Are you always starting out with a cold/new fire?

Thanks!


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## TCaldwell

installing the garn, considering its size was pretty easy, it comes with 3 explicit manuals that i had sent a month before arrival, so there were not many suprises. Mine is located in a rehabed 2 car garage, set in place with a forklift, then piped, filled, test run for leaks, insulated and a metal stud/sheetrock enclosure built. This took approx 3 weeks of nights, you do not need  the final enclosure if you are not going to be storing firewood next to the unit. Before arrival i had completed the underground pex piping 300lf 1/1/4", and mounted the flatplate heatexchanger. The size of pex and  heatexchanger were predicated upon the firing rate of the existing oil boiler to "mask". i knew the firing rate of the oil boiler to 140k/btu/hr, so  this was on paper my minimum requirement.  Because the oil boiler will continue to run at the same firing rate until the zones are satisfied, i needed to know the btu requirements for each zone, one at a cold start and two at a running state after say 3 minutes. the combined cold start of all zones is unlikely, so i  combined all zones running after 3 minutes and calculated a maximum btu/hr requirement , approx 275k btu/hr.  through field testing  with a taco 13 circulator i determined the piping head loss, flatplate could now size a hx and helped calculate wich circulator/flow rate would be needed. Also for my own curiosity i wired a old analog alarm clock to the oil burner relay, kept track of the daily time totals multiplied by the firing rate to roughly calculate a 24 btu consumption, the divide  by 24 to determine a average 1 hour btu requirement, approx 77kbtu/hr. The 24 hr total 1,848,000btu represents what on a below 0  day i would need to generate and store. The garn  model 1900 holds approx 2000 gal, hence between a low storage temp at 130 and a high boiler temp of 185, basically 55 degrees of boiler storeage twice a day. At a average burn rate of 400kbtu/hr, it is just under 5 hours a day. this is the worst case unless i add more zones. realistically  throughtout the winter in nw ct. approx 6000 degree days, i burn 2 times a day for 2 hours. My house is a 80 year old 2800 sqft  moderately insulated  with cast iron radiator and baseboard, comprised of 4 heating zones, a 5th zone for a indirect fired hwh, a 6th zone for a 750gal gunite hot tub, 100kbtu/hr shell/tube hx, and a 7th zone for 500sqft radiant floor in my shop. the plumbing warehouse has my visa on file. I know my requirements are over the top, but if you got it wood is good.Selecting the garn size , they only make 3  was determined by the storage requirements, would suspect most choose the middle size that i have. Spring and fall i fire once a day, summer i burn same as winter i heat a 20,000gal gunite pool with a 250kbtu/hr shell/tube hx, maintaining 85 deg. Because the garn is burn and store there are no problems with overfire/idle/smoke anytime.I burn  medium sized split cordwood, lumber scraps and old wood fencing and a occasional biobrick. Starting the fire being air infused is very easy, load approx 50 to 80lbs into primary burn chamber with a few crumpled news pages , light ,turn control timer for 2 hrs close door and walk away. after 45 minutes reload about 40 lbs, done. I nnstalled a thermocouple in secondary burn chamber and record temps of 1900 to 2100+ f. temps, remove ash once a week and brush tubes twice a year.I have not had any warranty issues as yet, and yes you can climb inside storage tank . I treat the water with a nitrite addmix and test twice a year,simple test kit .my monthly wood consumption averages 2/1/4 cords. all in all i realized most conventional plumbers do not want to take the time to be involved,it is time consuming and some trial and error, and it is just more satisfying to  do it your self, and that is one reason we are all here! Joe kohler, kohler and lewis in new hampshire who has garn experience helped with piping layout between the hx and oil boiler, check out his website.


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## TCaldwell

alright i guess my above post was a little long winded, but  the above issues are ones that evolve before, during and after installation for pretty much any wood  to oil or other system. if you are like most of   "us"  it  is just fun .


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## woodlady

Wow, thanks, I loved reading your story and hearing what the Garn is doing for you!!  I am so excitied about getting mine, especially since I paid $470 for 150 gallons of oil yesterday....  I am in the process of applying for a variance in order to be able to put the Garn literally next to my house which is sitting on the road.  Due to the proximity of the unit to my home and the fact that I have a cinderblock foundation instead of cement (no lateral strength) I will have to excavate and create a separate foundation for the Garn plus build a "house" for it.  These one time expenses are a drag but I don't plan on moving.  So your unit only burns for 2 1/2 hours?  I thought it was more like 4.  Do you burn 2 1/2 cords monthly in the cold part of the winter?  How dry is the wood that you are burning?  I was told to buy now and stack for next year approx 10 cords.  Also to get the smallest unit.  Thanks again for the info!
Paula in Woodstock, NY


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## TCaldwell

paula, i thought  possibly all the info might have made you think twice about the garn, you are tougher than i thought!  all kidding aside  i could not be happier with mine. have you ordered it yet? are you sure the small one will have enough storage based on your daily btu requirement?  i am not sure but i think there is approx  $3000+/- difference between the 2 units,my info shows the 1500 round holds 1496 gal or 12,476btu per degree raised, with a 55 degree  swing  130-185 degree, this represents about 686,000btu per firing. firing time depends on quality of wood burned, dry 2 hours, over 25% moisture figure on 3 hours. all this means is with dry wood  firing once per day you would be able to deliver 28,590btu per hour average for 24 hours. firing twice per day will  supply 57,181btu per hour average. with the 2000 round the  once a day would be 34,993btu per hour average, firing twice per day will supply 69,987btu per hour average.  If able you could fire the small one in the middle of the day, also if you have radiant heat you could draw the useable temp down to 100 degrees, thus increasing your storage charge. With pex supply lines , a non pressureized system and a possible npsh, (net pressure suction head)  altitude dependant  iwould not run the system above 200 degrees.
 how close to the existing boiler will the garn be? will there be any underground piping? or will it only need to go through a wall, other things to consider,is your house well insulated, will you be putting a addition ,extra btu requirements some day to the system. how is your domestic hot water heated. these are all things to consider when sizing a storage system. start with wiring a analog clock to your oil boiler relay. every 24 hours record run time and reset, multiply daily run time by 140.000btu , this will give you a good idea of what your storage requirements will be on a daily basis. who have you contacted at garn, who is your sales person.                                                                     thanks tom


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## woodlady

Hi Tom,   I have been researching wood boilers for the past 3 years.  I had wanted one when we added onto our house back in 2000 but did not have proper info from my boiler person or anyone else.  I had originally planned on getting a Tarm for my basement, but after speaking with them directly, was told their largest unit was not large enough for my home.  I have a 1500 square foot 1850's farmhouse, poorly insulated, plus a 2700 square foot addition, new construction but with a lot of glass and an uninsulated basement which part of it is above the ground.  My boiler is a Buderus with a separate indirect fired hotwater heater which I cannot afford to run for heat, it was too large at the moment of installation, long story, - In the cold of winter that brute goes through 500, yes 500 gallons of oil a month, with me keeeping zones down and my temp in the home at 64-66 degrees....tragic. It does have a control on it that moniters outside temp plus shows me how many minutes it has been running. So for the past few years we have been heating with a Quadrafire woodstove insert in the old house and a Quadrafire pellet stove in the new part plus using the boiler for some backup, quite an ordeal, lugging wood and pellets and buying oil... plus my house is not so warm.  I have been speaking with the owner of Garn directly who is a great guy, he has advised me to do as much as I can to insulate my house before getting the Garn which I am in the process of doing, in order to perhaps have a smaller water supply line from the unit to my boiler plus a smaller pump, this guy is a true engineer and is a fanatic about saving energy.  I am insulating the new basement plus the old one, and getting a price to have insulation blown in to the farmhouse - was going to do it myself with celluslose but am waiting for this person who will do Air Krete in my walls and a virgin fiberglass in the roof - this may not happen, will see about the $$.  Nonetheless, I told Mr. Garn my boiler size and consumption of all materials and he recommended the smallest unit.  The distance from the Garn to my boiler is about 35' max, I will have the trench dug when I have the foundation installed.  No more plans for adding on, needless to say, but I do have ongoing pool fantasies...which if I ever get one, I would like to heat in May and Sept, Oct to have a long season.  Another note, I do not heat approx 1000 square feet of the new addition, the upstairs, as my daughter is off at college but it does stay at about 58 due to heat rise.  So there you have it.  The only thing I found daunting about the Garn was it's size - it's outrageous!!

Thanks!


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## TCaldwell

paula the garn is large, have you seen one in operation yet? It does seem to disappear behind the metal stud face wall. Mine is located in a rehabed detatched 2  car garage, the other half is for wood storage.I have  seen a garn barn as dectra`s  plans show and the wood storage is outside, a bummer when its cold. You are welcome to  check out my install  if you are interested. Since you were able to provide martin lunde with your particulars he can size and sell you a flatplate hx, i bought mine from him. As dectra also offers a piping design layout for a fee. Most of his regional salesmen are engineers, mine is jim fink  who performed a hydronic analysis of my operating layout. I should have hired jim from the get go, i would have saved alot of time. I will say martin is very accomodating  during the inquarry  process, once you recieve the contract from the salesman, that person becomes your contact  with garn , and your representative for martin. it seems to work. I will post my phone numbers on my bio.


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## EricV

"I’d rather spend $6,000 on a proven design like the Tarm and set it up like they suggest. Then you get a 20-year warranty."

Just a quick note on the Tarm Warranty.  If it is not installed by a professional then there is no warranty.  I have one and installed it myself but I'm confident enough with the company that I'll be ok.

It's in the fine print.

Eric


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## Eric Johnson

Thanks for that clarification, Eric.

I don't think you really find out what any warranty is worth until you make a claim. Like you, I tried to establish a working relationship with the dealer and the importer, in part because they were very helpful, but also because I wanted their approval of both the design and the installation. Any warranty implies a partnership of sorts, and I want it to be a close one with these guys.

How's it working out with your tank?


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## TCaldwell

eric v , what is unproven with the garn


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## EricV

That quote  
"I’d rather spend $6,000 on a proven design like the Tarm and set it up like they suggest. Then you get a 20-year warranty."

wasn't mine but Eric Johnson's.  I only used it to refer to the warranty on the Tarm.

I looked at the Garn and came real close to buying it.  I had the budget for it but chose the Tarm because I could put it inside the house (in a new addition for it).

My other factor for choosing Tarm was they have been around 80 some odd years.

I e-mailed Garn a few times and then he stopped returning my e-mails, I'm sure he is real busy.

But, I like the concept of the Garn very much.

My tank issue is still with me but I've been to busy too collect some good data.  This weekend I'll take some good data.

I'm leaning toward the fact I have too much  copper coil and the water returning to the boiler is too cool to pass through the termover valve.  Just an early guess.

Eric


----------



## Eric Johnson

I said that somewhere, but now I can't find it, and it's kind of out of context. Presumably I was offering advice to someone who I thought might have more luck with a mainstream unit, like a Tarm. The Garn is a great boiler, but for a variety of reasons, probably not for everybody. Sometimes it's hard to read someone's qualifications or motivation from a post or two. Sometimes it takes awhile to figure out where they're coming from.


----------



## EricV

I am sorry to take your quote out of context, that certainly was not my intent.  I only meant to refer to the Tarm Warranty.  In fact your comment had nothing to do with any specific boiler at all.

Again, I apologise for the error.

Eric


----------



## TCaldwell

no hard feelings taken, i agree they are not the most progresive when it comes to public relations. Actually i looked hard at tarm,felt that they have a quality product, 2 reasons i looked on 1, short wood 2, the heat storage set up seemed complicated and as expensive  as the boiler, they all have there drawbacks.


----------



## TCaldwell

paula, you might call switzers custom woodburning system, dundee ny 607 243 8689 , gary builds and installs gasifing boilers, i visited his shop .  builds pressurized and non pressureized  storage boilers based upon your requirements


----------



## rsnider

i notice on the garn web site it can be a direct vent out a wall are there any other gasifiers that can do that? I've seen this boiler at a lumber jack show and it is impressive and huge. i do believe it is a complete package of clean combustion and water storage but man what a big gasifier.


----------



## Eric Johnson

The Garn venting is pretty darn impressive. I couldn't believe it when I saw that video. My friend with the sawmill has a couple of Garns and a Central Boiler. He uses the CB to burn green slabwood (no chipper for some reason). I suspect another reason he runs the CB is to get that woodsmoke ambiance around his millyard. It contributes to the atmosphere, so to speak.

The EKO is supposed to be vented into a Class A chimney. I suspect the same is true for Tarm and similar designs. Mine goes into an 8" Duratech.


----------



## TCaldwell

remember the garn  has basically not been changed  for almost 25 years, a few modifications now and then, it was designed by a combustion engineer,and is still one of the few boilers independently tested. they are made in  outside of minneapolis and  are more  common in the mid  and west. is it the most efficient boiler out there, i doubt it ,  probably the most efficient and simple burn and store made in the u.s., yes it is large. check out  the herlt  german gassifiers, with thier controllers aside from the puke green and telletubby shape i would on paper think they might take the cake. www.donegalorganic.ie


----------



## TCaldwell

eric, i second your  view on the gassification/induced burn in secondary chamber issue. the garn falls in the later, but still reaches similar temps as down draft gassifiers through refractory nozzles.


----------



## rsnider

that is a good looking true gasifier. i like how the ceramic covers all the firebox area to dry out the fuel better. ill try not to use gassifier for all the boilers i talk about it is just too easy to call them all that. i do understand the differences everyone on the forums talk about.


----------



## TCaldwell

it  has been 5 days, is the garn dead? it basically incorporates  secondary burn,  thermal storage , a solar port in one unit.


----------



## brad068

TCaldwell,

 I took pictures of my homebuilt Garn principle boiler and emailed them to this site.  I don't know for sure if they made it.  I'm still learning on my computer.  I could of built any boiler but I personally think that the Garn system is bulletproof!  I just didn't have $12,000


----------



## EricV

Did you make a set of plans or drawings you can share?


----------



## brad068

My plans and drawings are in my head.  I can usually build something by just looking at it or see it in operation.  Always trying to make it better.  After all that is the whole point.  I hope my pictures come through.


----------



## heaterman

Here's some hard real world data from a Garn 2000 we just finished installing for a customer today. We are heating his house, domestic hot water, the garage, the work shop, his shop office AND the chicken coop. The total sq ft is over 5,500 but the garage, chicken coop and work shop are kept at 45-50* so the actual load is somewhat less than a normal structure that size. 

We've sold a few of these now and I'm impressed with them to say the least. Logistically, they are much more complicated to install than a typical OWB due to the need for assembling your own structure. I must say though that in my humble opinion the Garn is well  worth the effort if converting wood to energy efficiently and cleanly is your goal. 

When we fired the unit up today the water temp was in the high 40's which is a guarantee of copious amounts of condensation. You could have filled a 5 gallon bucket with the water running out of the horizontal flue. After things settled down (water temp above 120 and flue temp above 230) I ran a combustion test with my flue gas analyzer to see what was actually going on. The numbers are fantastic efficiency wise.  As you can see from the following numbers,efficiency drops a bit as water temperature rises but I have to say that many supposedly high efficiency type gas furnaces don't achieve these levels.  The first number listed is the water temp and the second is the corresponding combustion efficiency.

120*          90.7%
130*          89.5%
140*          87.6%
150*          85.3%
160*          85.1%
170*          84.7%
180*          84.4%

Any efficiency above 87-88% is basically in condensing territory and the Garn is not designed to operate in that range. In fact, the only alternative fuel boilers that do run in this range, are available only in Europe. 

Carbon Monoxide production is severe but less than half of what I see when I test a typical "ice shanty type" OWB.  CO ran as high as 2,800ppm at fire up but as the burn continued dropped dramatically to in the 400-500PPM range. Numbers over 5,000ppm are standard for the normal OWB and that's a full burn. Idling is off the chart and would ruin my meter if left in the flue.

I met a customer this fall that has a Garn in operation that he bought 23 years ago. No problems except a draft motor. That is a track record few if any OWB's will ever reach. If a Garn looks good to you, don't hesitate to buy one.


----------



## TCaldwell

heaterman, garnification, this information to me is music to my ears, maybe we can change the world , 1 garn at a time! where did you get the combustion gas analyzer, how many have you installed, my experiences are near the beginning of the thread, garnification i cant find the pics.


----------



## brad068

Heaterman you have seen the light too!  These boilers, in my opinion are the king.  I built mine to break up the last flue to transfer more heat with more surface area.  I had to recap the bottom of the WHS-500 boiler that I picked up and after that I got it running and did some testing on it.  I found that by sticking a 4" probe style analog temp gauge in the exhaust right out of the boiler the temp ran at 350-400 degrees F. There is alot of heat there yet so with my units design it runs at 220-240 degrees F out of the boiler.  I sent pictures to this website but I can't find them.  Also I don't think people understand how powerful these things burn.  I would say that my is moving 500-600 cfms.  That is alot of air with alot of heat in it. The movie at Garn home doesn't do justice for these units. They are awesome!!


----------



## TCaldwell

garnification, does the bundled tube last pass  hx go from the front  to back or just part of the distance, i  toyed with the thought of a series of radial strap on heat sinks on the exhaust tubes. did you notice any more or less puffing with your modifications?


----------



## brad068

It goes the full lenght of the boiler.  It still puffs but my door latch design locks the door both ways so it can suck in or puff out. with the door latched you can't even tell my furance is burning.  Did you see my pictures on here?


----------



## TCaldwell

garnification, where should i look to retrieve the pics?


----------



## heaterman

TCaldwell

I sell Testo equipment which is a German made line of testing equipment made for professional use. A combustion analyzer like the ones we use costs from $1,200- $1,600. It tests O2, CO2, CO, temperature, excess air, flue pressure +/-, and CO ambient I don't see how most HVAC guys get along without one. 

I've only sold Garn for about a year and this was our third installation. I wouldn't go as far as to call them smokeless but they burn much more cleanly than anything but another gasification appliance. The build quality is second to none. 

Another unit I really like is the Econo-Burn gasifier. Relatively new but they are modeled after the best units made in Europe, Austria to be specific. They will be ASME rated very soon and carry the listings to be installed as a sealed system in any jurisdiction
They weigh about 10-15% more than other similar gasification units (EKO and others like it). We'll be installing our first one of those in about 3 weeks and I'll see if I can post a report here.


----------



## brad068

I wonder if any of the downdraft gasifying units will make 15-20 years on the nozzle? The older Garns that I've seen in use(20 years +), the ceramic in the second burn chamber is still original. The fire bricks in the bottom can be bought anywhere along with the draft motor. No fancy microprocessors, no high tech nozzle or secondary burn chamber and the best geometric building shape, round. Round door, round flues. Equal expansion in a circle-no cracks in the corners along with two sided welding.

I got my ceramics from Unifrax. The door is comprised of a 20" and 22" tank ends one turned inside the other. The draft motor is a 56C frame 3/4 hp 3450 motor with a homemade 9" 8 blade fan wheel. The water vessel is a 1500 gallon milk tank with a 1"x 1" drilled and tapped ring 54" I.D. welded to one end of the tank. The front plate with the firebox and flues welded to it slide in the one end and gets bolted to the tank. I have a manway access into the tank or I can completely remove the "guts" of the boiler if I so choose. I monitor burn temps with three 200-1000 degree thermometers. One in the lower cleanout/inspection cover, one in the fan chamber, and one in the flue pipe exiting the boiler. The first gauge (which is 15' away from the secondary burn chamber, following the exhaust flue) will bury the needle and then level off @ 975. The second one will run @ 400. and the third will stay between 220-240. I think that my final exhaust is to cold though, it will steam like a high efficiency gas furnace through most of the burn. But I can raise @1300 gallons of water more than 40 degrees in one hour.


----------



## TCaldwell

heaterman, thanks for the analyzer info, do you sell one that is permanently mounted or data logger capable, i have a garn model 1900 ractangular. I installed a thermocouple at the rear of the secondary burn chamber sticking up and centered on the exhaust tube,  average high temps 1700-1900f with a high of 2170f, last pass out temps seem to run 2.5 to 3  times less, dependant on boiler water temp                 garnification, your burn chambers  and air box are gasketed and bolted to cut outs in the tank end, totally removable  guts, very inovative. In my unit the secondary burn chamber is stepped up about 3 inches above the fiberfrax of the primary chamber, are the older units the same, also i heard of bundled tubes right  behind  the secondary chamber, mine is one 4.5 inch tube. thanks for the info.


----------



## webbie

Garnification said:
			
		

> TCaldwell,
> 
> I took pictures of my homebuilt Garn principle boiler and emailed them to this site.  I don't know for sure if they made it.  I'm still learning on my computer.  I could of built any boiler but I personally think that the Garn system is bulletproof!  I just didn't have $12,000



Pictures are uploaded - see other thread on this forum.


----------



## heaterman

TCaldwell

This is probably the model I would use for the application you describe along with a 120V power supply. The available software allows you to make charts a graphs using the PC interface. Probably a tad pricey for personal use but hey, it's only money and you could probably justify it to the better half based on safety issues 

http://testousa.com/fallpromo/testo_330_1_LL.pdf

or

http://testousa.com/fallpromo/testo_327.pdf


----------



## cupcake

Garnifacation. It takes you that long to raise the temperature 40 degrees :question: :roll:


----------



## heaterman

FYI Some more Garn data for those interested;

Here is the calculated actual OUTPUT rating for the Garn we installed this week and it's pretty impressive. Right on with the factory spec of 400,000 btu/hour burn rate. At start up the water temperature was 45*. Exactly 6 hours later, the 2,000 gallons(factory rated capacity)  of water stood at 186* soooooo....... 

2000 x 8.33 = 16,660  (total gallons x weight /gallon= total weight of water 

16,660 x 141 =2,340,600 btu's transfered  (pounds of water x temp rise = total btu's)

2,340,600 / 6 = 390,100   (total btu's divided by elapsed time in hours = btu/hour)

You can deduce from those numbers that the factory burn rate is fairly conservative. This is due to the fact that if the burn rate is actually 400K per hour and the unit transfered 390K, the efficiency would be about 97-98%. Obviously that number is unattainable because it is way past the condensation point of the flue gas. This happened early in the burn but then ceased when water temps got into normal operating range. These numbers substantiate the flue gas measurements for efficiency I was getting with the analyzer.


----------



## brad068

High E said:
			
		

> Garnifacation. It takes you that long to raise the temperature 40 degrees :question: :roll:




 High E, Is that HI Everyone or does that refer to some sort of boiler unit?


----------



## cupcake

garnifacation,to your question about name.Yes it is High Efficiency Stoves. I'm currently burning my 2nd home built high efficiency stove. Could you answer my water temperature questiion. I have rasied my water storage temperature 40 degrees in 45 min. And that is a 1900 gal tank. ;-)


----------



## Eric Johnson

Alright, two guys from Central Wisconsin. I'm from Coloma originally. Where are you guys doing all this fabulous fabrication?


----------



## leaddog

Quote(I have rasied my water storage temperature 40 degrees in 45 min. And that is a 1900 gal tank.)


That must be a large boiler as by my calulations I come up with over 800,000btus an hr.And I thought my eko80 was large.

garnifcation---- That is a very impressive boiler and the workmanship looks outstanding. You must have a good scrap supply of stainless or else you would have more that the cost of a new garn. Your shop is very impressive also. Are you a fabricator by trade?
leaddog


----------



## brad068

leaddog said:
			
		

> Quote(I have rasied my water storage temperature 40 degrees in 45 min. And that is a 1900 gal tank.)
> 
> 
> That must be a large boiler as by my calulations I come up with over 800,000btus an hr.And I thought my eko80 was large.
> 
> garnifcation---- That is a very impressive boiler and the workmanship looks outstanding. You must have a good scrap supply of stainless or else you would have more that the cost of a new garn. Your shop is very impressive also. Are you a fabricator by trade?
> leaddog



leaddog, My tank is a 1500 gal milk bulk tank that I picked up at a dairy supply dealer.  My figures is that my water storage is only @1300 gal figuring firebox and flue displacement. As I stated before I broke up the last flue pass into 9 2" pipes to strip more heat out of the exhaust gas.  The secondary burn chamber on my unit will glow bright orange must be at least 2000 degrees and my final temp probe has not exceeded 240 degrees.  I am a fabricator by trade.


----------



## brad068

I have seen High E's  boiler and it does work well.  Although he is still using his fingers and toes to do his calculations I do suspect that his boiler can do what he says!


----------



## TCaldwell

high e , what do you have under the hood, do you have any pictures? it almost sounds like garn 3200 burn chambers in a 1900 can. heaterman thanks for the testo info, a couple of burners in the hood and i might consider. also it is nice to see field data , always nice to validate, thanks


----------



## brad068

TCaldwell,

 Do you have a thermometer in/around the fan housing? 
If you do, what is the temp at full burn.


----------



## TCaldwell

garnification, full burn  temps ave 450 if  lucky 550 and once 600


----------



## brad068

Hi E was in my shop today.  I think he has finally figured out how to build the flux capacitor.  He is the only gasifier I know that can heat his water storage with a box of toothpicks; the 800 count  family size of course.


----------



## brad068

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> high e , what do you have under the hood, do you have any pictures? it almost sounds like garn 3200 burn chambers in a 1900 can. heaterman thanks for the testo info, a couple of burners in the hood and i might consider. also it is nice to see field data , always nice to validate, thanks



 TCaldwell,
 When you say "3200 burn chambers" is more than one in a 3200? I don't think I've seen a 3200.


----------



## TCaldwell

garnification,  the garn model 3200 has a 3200 gallon capacity and a larger burn chamber with a stated burn rate of 975k btu/ hr.... thought maybe HI E  might have a burn chamber like this in his tank, if so maybe more hx tubes inside?  do you think he might enlighten us. I was referring to the primary chamber and secondary chamber as "burn chambers", did not mean to confuse.


----------



## brad068

Talked to High "E" today.  His computer went low "E".  He tells me that he is going to enlighten us when his computer is back up to gasification mode again.  You guys better get your knee boots  :lol:


----------



## TCaldwell

garnification  thanks for the update many of us are very interested, thanks tom


----------



## brad068

High E is about ready to gasify his computer.  I think it broke down from all the "lies" that were being typed on it. :lol:


----------



## machinistbcb

Garnifacation,    

I am really interested in building one if these boilers my self.  I have been studying the pitcures you posted and I am trying to figure out how the air intake enters the fire chamber.  It looks like the intake pipe enters into the box that the door closes onto.  Is there some type ports cut into the fire chamber where that box is ?  

Thanks,
                     Brian


----------



## brad068

The combustion air intake pipe comes all the way through the water tank from the back of the boiler and enters the "air collar" in the lower right hand corner.  There is a baffle so the fresh air has to go up and around the collar cooling it in turn preheating the incoming fresh air. This is where I experimented with the air actually entering the firebox. The air enters the box right behind the two inspection plates (above and below the door)  I made removable air nozzles/deflectors that can be removed behind these plates.  Kind of like removable venturis. I can make new ones with different air flow patterens as long as they fit the template.


----------



## cupcake

TC Cadwell,
   Computer up and running.  What's under the hood?  It's a big block in a compact.  46 x 30 block with a 24 inx  10in secondary,  60 plus ft 4 in. hooker exhaust, 9 in banks turbo, and a 6 in eddlebrock torker intake with a wild port job in 1995-2000 gallon compact.  Got the knot out of my boot lace and calculated heating around 1780 gallons plus or minus a toe.  
Garnification, keep testing  It's all in the porting.


----------



## brad068

High E was going to post pics of his blueprints but the wife keeps parking the car on top of them.  I think we are going to have to exchange some wood.  That crack laced jack pine that he's burning to get all them there BTU's aught to work real good in my unit.


----------



## brad068

Does anyone know what the difference is between welded steel boiler tube (ASTM 178) and regular steel tube, besides the price?


----------



## TCaldwell

since heaterman posted real data on combustion efficiency of a garn model 2000, I will entertain you with  my last burn results, garn model 1900, 1960gal+550gal remote storage=2510gal. Started with boiler temp of 150deg, 2 hours later finished at 189deg,so 2510gallonsx8.33lbs per gal=20908lbs waterx39deg rise=815,412btu, put into storage, with a hourly demand of 65,000btu per hr, that represents about 12.5 hrs heat, dwh, hot tub, if you add back the 2 hours of demand that never made it to storage,another 130,000btu + 815,412btu=945,412btu, a hourly hot dog roast of 472,706btu/hr, on 1 load of wood!


----------



## brad068

Tom,
 What species of wood are you burning?  Is it seasoned? What lengths do you cut? Have taken apart your fan at all/check flues?


----------



## TCaldwell

garnification,  I pretty much burn any form of wood, cordwood, oak, maple ,birch, pine, fir , all about 24-30" . I also burn alot of dimensional  lumber scraps, laminated beams, silent trusses ect, but not pressure treated. I twice a year clean / brush  pipes,flues and remove blower, cleaning fan. Have only brushed fly ash, never had creasote,  all wood i am burning this year was  cut ,split,stacked  before april. thanks tom   ps.  if you dont already try filling the primary burn chamber to the top, you will increase the time of 1800- 2100 burn temps. let me know how it works out. tom


----------



## brad068

Tom,

 I cleaned out my firebox to inspect.  It was alot of work removing all 1.5 gallons of ash.  I burned @1.5 face cord so far.  And it was so nice to clean box with the draft fan running, no ash in my face! 
P.S. 

 Looks like we got another interested garner on a new thread.  "Change the world one Garn at a time" -TCaldwell


----------



## brad068

Talked to High E this weekend. He is starting on his 3rd boiler. Should be @2900 gal. Hopefully I can acquire pics of this submarine and post them. I think he is going to bury lines in his yard so he can have green grass year round for the goats to eat. He figures its cheaper to let them graze then buy hay. But then again you all know how he does his figuring, Fingers and toes!


----------



## Eric Johnson

You Garn boys need to hook up with Father John, who just decided to get a Garn for his monastery in southern Virginia:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/12352/P45/


----------



## TCaldwell

eric, after reading the trouble father john was having, i called my garn distributor asked him to read the thread, i  think between heaterman and the distributor they made some calls.


----------



## heaterman

RE Father John
 I had a very pleasant, 40 minute conversation with him Saturday. I really want to pay him a visit when all is said and done. They have put a TON of work into the monastery and have every right to take great satisfaction in their accomplishments.


----------



## Eric Johnson

I'd like to see it, too. I wonder how far they are from Richmond. I get down there on business every once in awhile.


----------



## Happy

I am also trying to order Garn boiler.I left several messages at their phone no. for last 10 days.I got 1 response back 3 days ago saying some salesman will contact me from my area.They did not give me contact information for this salesman.Now I am waiting for his call for last 3 days.I understand it takes 6 weeks for delivery and I have to decide fast if I want to wait longer for Garn or go with Orlan EKO.Garn has great product but if they are not ready to sell then it is just imaginery product for me.I talked to Tom from CT in detail about Garn who is using it and I am impressed.


----------



## Eric Johnson

Welcome to the Boiler Room, happy. Whether you decide to go with the EKO or the Garn, you've come to the right place for information. Either way sounds like a great choice to me.


----------



## woodlady

Hi,  I just spoke with Jim Sauffer (Martin's right hand man) at Garn, they are overwhelmed with business but want to get Garns out to us.  You can call him at 952-288-3076.  I have to wait to get mine until the spring as I have to build a foundation and pad for this unit as it is so close to my house and my cinderblock foundation has no lateral strength to bear the weight of this unit next to it.  It is too cold for the cement now (I'm sooo sad).  everytime I hear my boiler kick on at $3 a gollon for oil my only comfort is that next year and forever I will not be buying oil again !!  It is worth the wait for me to get the Garn, I like the fact that it is outside of my house and I won't have to lug wood down to my basement.  I do have room for wood storage in the shed I am building.  I am getting the 2000 (as per Tom's advice) so I can eventually heat my Mom's cottage next door.  For me, getting the Garn is the Big Event in my life, I am so impressed with them that I am thinking of becoming a dealer...
Cheers,

Woodlady in Woodstock, NY


----------



## Happy

Hi Eric and woodlady,

Thanks for your quick reply.I just talked to Jim at Garn and he gave me local contact's  information.I am going to talk to chris from floor heat system in Maine.I think he is their sales rep.woodlady,Thanks for your help getting in touch with Jim at Garn. how much did you pay for Garn 2000?


----------



## Rick Stanley

TCaldwell said:
			
		

> garnification,  I pretty much burn any form of wood, cordwood, oak, maple ,birch, pine, fir , all about 24-30" . I also burn alot of dimensional  lumber scraps, laminated beams, silent trusses ect, but not pressure treated. I twice a year clean / brush  pipes,flues and remove blower, cleaning fan. Have only brushed fly ash, never had creasote,  all wood i am burning this year was  cut ,split,stacked  before april. thanks tom   ps.  if you dont already try filling the primary burn chamber to the top, you will increase the time of 1800- 2100 burn temps. let me know how it works out. tom



Tom,

 Lately I've read a lot here about needing one year or even two year seasoned wood to get good performance from a gasser. Now I've stumbled across the above post where you were burning 8 month seasoned stuff (oak even, wow) back in December. I have a Garn purchase in the works and have been kicking my butt that I didn't make the decision earlier so as to have wood enough cut and seasoned ahead of time to last through next winter. Maybe if I get to cutting and splitting right away there's still time?? I have 2+ cords of real dry stuff to get me started. How did that April wood you speak of work out in your Garn? Did you get good secondary combustion temps? No smoke? Please say yes. 

Thanks,
Rick


----------



## brad068

ricks said:
			
		

> TCaldwell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> garnification, I pretty much burn any form of wood, cordwood, oak, maple ,birch, pine, fir , all about 24-30" . I also burn alot of dimensional lumber scraps, laminated beams, silent trusses ect, but not pressure treated. I twice a year clean / brush pipes,flues and remove blower, cleaning fan. Have only brushed fly ash, never had creasote, all wood i am burning this year was cut ,split,stacked before april. thanks tom ps. if you dont already try filling the primary burn chamber to the top, you will increase the time of 1800- 2100 burn temps. let me know how it works out. tom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom,
> 
> Lately I've read a lot here about needing one year or even two year seasoned wood to get good performance from a gasser. Now I've stumbled across the above post where you were burning 8 month seasoned stuff (oak even, wow) back in December. I have a Garn purchase in the works and have been kicking my butt that I didn't make the decision earlier so as to have wood enough cut and seasoned ahead of time to last through next winter. Maybe if I get to cutting and splitting right away there's still time?? I have 2+ cords of real dry stuff to get me started. How did that April wood you speak of work out in your Garn? Did you get good secondary combustion temps? No smoke? Please say yes.
> 
> Thanks,
> Rick
Click to expand...


ricks, I'm burning wood that I cut when I started my boiler back on 9-9-07. Most of it was standing dead with some green from downed trees. My unit will burn it, It just takes longer to get it all burning and you don't get as much heat out of it according to the water temp gauge. I will get more ash in the flues and alot of "steam" out the stack. The reason these units can handle green wood better is because of the amount of combustion air they can move.


----------



## TCaldwell

ricks, the 8 month oak was stored for the last month in a heated bldg and i still would mix with dry stuff, yes when dry the oak burns very well, i almost always mix wood types and and mc values within reason. you could re split some of the oak to dry faster. you will want to stack the wood in the chamber tightly if it is dry, a little looser if a higher mc content. the garn is relatively forgiving however it will reach higher sustained temps less smoke/condensate with dry wood. I would say garnification might burn wood that is a little wet from time to time, i think he likes the smell!


----------



## terry

hello woodlady, we to are interested in a garn or eko unit.  We are trying to get prices and choose the best unit for our needs, we've called a garn dealer in Quincy Michigan.  We've left messages but no return call as of yet.  Were wanting to heat a large house, 5400 sq.ft. two story. walkout basement with easterly exposure. well insulated. large omount of Anderson windows and doorwalls, little R factor there. The house has two 90 efficiency furnaces, one on each end. Also a 32x48 two story polebarn. The barn has a 9x48 overhand for possible location of boiler and wood storage. No heating system in barn as of yet. no insulatin in barn.   My wonderful  wife of 17 years and I have built the house, were not affraid of the work of cutting trees or  instulling a word burning system however we are in need of any information that would help us in picking the best one for our needs.  Wood in plentiful.  We love reading on the website, it's full of well needed information. It not for this website we would probably be the owners of a OWB.  "THANKS"


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## Rick Stanley

If you partitioned off and well insulated a corner of an unheated building, say maybe a 7 X 20 ft. room, and put a Garn in there,then insulated the boiler to the hilt like the manufacturer recommends..............................

 Would there be standby loss enough to keep pipes from freezing within the remainder of that 7X20 space?

 What safeguards are you guys building into your systems to prevent freeze-ups if you run out of wood or get abducted by aliens or something?


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## Eric Johnson

Lots of insulation on the pipes running through unheated space. The boiler itself will retain heat for a long time--days, I suspect--before you'd have to start worrying about the boiler itself freezing up, if it's in an insulated enclosure. My boiler room is made of cinderblock filled with vermiculite, insulated steel doors and about 24 inches of fiberglass bat insulation in the ceiling. It's in an unheated barn.

My plan for the odd winter vacation is to run my gas boiler and circulate just enough water through the wood side, continuously, to keep everything at 50 or 60 degrees. I thought about running heat tape in with the pipe (pex), but decided it wasn't necessary.

One nice feature would be a zone valve that would open up and drain the boiler when the temp got down to, say, 40. That would be pretty good alien insurance for the boiler itself.


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## heaterman

linkolog said:
			
		

> hello woodlady, we to are interested in a garn or eko unit.  We are trying to get prices and choose the best unit for our needs, we've called a garn dealer in Quincy Michigan.  We've left messages but no return call as of yet.  Were wanting to heat a large house, 5400 sq.ft. two story. walkout basement with easterly exposure. well insulated. large omount of Anderson windows and doorwalls, little R factor there. The house has two 90 efficiency furnaces, one on each end. Also a 32x48 two story polebarn. The barn has a 9x48 overhand for possible location of boiler and wood storage. No heating system in barn as of yet. no insulatin in barn.   My wonderful  wife of 17 years and I have built the house, were not affraid of the work of cutting trees or  instulling a word burning system however we are in need of any information that would help us in picking the best one for our needs.  Wood in plentiful.  We love reading on the website, it's full of well needed information. It not for this website we would probably be the owners of a OWB.  "THANKS"



Linko:

  We installed a Garn 1500 near St Johns and I'd bet that we could arrange for you to see it if you would like. The owner has a huge old house built in 1873. It has little in the way of insulation in it, just grass and straw between the layer of brick (3). I know he had problems with wet wood the first part of the winter because of a conversation we had when I called to check on him. I didn't hear back so I assume that he got some dry stuff to work with. I have no doubt that his house is a safe bet to burn up 10+ cords (pulpwood cords not rick cords) of wood in a season so his would be pretty much an acid test so to speak.  PM me if you would like to make arrangements to do so. I want to get down there and do a check and service on it anyway late this month. (The first year check is a freebie)


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## Audetat

I have been designing hydronic systems for some time now and backup gas boilers for wood boilers.

The Garn boiler is not pressurized, so the jacket width is irrelevant. Water quality is key to the tank life. 

As pointed out, the return water temperature is the key keeping the combustion clean and condensate free. Corrosion will occur on the combustion side of the tank if return water temperatures are below 130F° for any length of time. Automated mixing valve or pumps are safer than a simple bypass and may incorporate outdoor reset for better control, comfort and efficiency on the distribution side of the system.

Heat load analysis is part of the package when done right.

I foamed my house and will soon foam the shop. 

I am considering a GARN for my own shop and sub-system for the house. It is definitely a long term investment in comfort, efficiency and quality.

I may even become a dealer but that's another story.


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## vvvv

Garn is not pressurized? how is it depressurized? just asking


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## Audetat

Most indoor boilers are pressurized. Most outdoor boilers are not. This has to do with pushing water to multiple story building and heat transfer medium quality.

The GARN is unique in that it is both a non-pressurized boiler and also rated for indoor use. Water or heat transfer medium is carefully monitored and controlled with factory chemistry.


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## vvvv

Audetat said:
			
		

> Most indoor boilers are pressurized. Most outdoor boilers are not. This has to do with pushing water to multiple story building and heat transfer medium quality.
> 
> The GARN is unique in that it is both a non-pressurized boiler and also rated for indoor use. Water or heat transfer medium is carefully monitored and controlled with factory chemistry.


when water gets hot it expands & creates pressure. unless theres a vent to air its pressurized. air would rust the boiler so i dont think its unpressurized.


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## Audetat

Wood boiler manufacturers avoid expensive insurance and government/industry regulation by NOT creating a pressure vessel. No pressure vessel, no "H" stamp etc.

There are a few pressurized solid fuel systems on the market such as Tarm or Buderus, but they have relatively small outputs and fire box. Some are more suited to burning coal than cord wood.

Oxidation is influenced by several factors and water quality is the first. Open boiler are considered "safer" by the insurance industry and properly maintained will not "rust" on the water side of the boiler.

Water does expand in volume when heated. Open boilers account for this expansion with added volume. Closed or pressurized systems have a compression or expansion tank to allow for the extra volume. They also sport a pressure relief valve that keeps them from blowing up.


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## vvvv

Audetat said:
			
		

> Wood boiler manufacturers avoid expensive insurance and government/industry regulation by NOT creating a pressure vessel. No pressure vessel, no "H" stamp etc.
> 
> There are a few pressurized solid fuel systems on the market such as Tarm or Buderus, but they have relatively small outputs and fire box. Some are more suited to burning coal than cord wood.
> 
> Oxidation is influenced by several factors and water quality is the first. Open boiler are considered "safer" by the insurance industry and properly maintained will not "rust" on the water side of the boiler.
> 
> Water does expand in volume when heated. Open boilers account for this expansion with added volume. Closed or pressurized systems have a compression or expansion tank to allow for the extra volume. They also sport a pressure relief valve that keeps them from blowing up.


so it vents?


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## Audetat

It is technically open to the atmosphere as are most outdoor wood boilers in the US.


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