# Howâ€™d you afford your new stove?



## joecool85 (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm in a bit of a tough spot.  My wife and I are fresh out of college (well, 3 years ago) so we are paying on student loans as well as a house loan and two car loans...needless to say we are tight on cash.  The bank won't give us another loan and American Express won't up my credit to cover the $2,500 I will need to get a stove and chimney and install it.

So, what did you guys do?  Anyone else in a real tight spot have a creative solution?  Or is it just save, save, save?

I really want to get a stove in before next winter.  Fuel oil is already up to $3.75 here and I'm willing to bet it'll be above $4/gal by next heating season.


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## MishMouse (Mar 16, 2011)

What I would do is buy the stove first while they are on sale.
Then worry about getting it installed in the fall.
If you wait to long they will be out of stock and when they get them back in the prices will go up.
Check Home Depot for a Englander stove, some people on here are finding them at or below $900.

I would also start cutting and splitting like a mad man to get a good wood supply for the fall.
Also do a search for NC30 on the forum, I think there is a website that also is selling them for a pretty good price.


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## tfdchief (Mar 16, 2011)

My advise to my children in the same situation a few years ago, was to SAVE. Don't get yourself to far in debt. However, if you want to get a start there are good stoves that are not that expensive. They aren't Cadillacs but can do the job. Example - http://www.overstockstoves.com/50tvl17--epa-certified-noncatalytic-wood-stove--1250171200.html Don't forget the cost of the chimney system. Good luck, Steve


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## MaintenanceMan (Mar 16, 2011)

More debt will not dig you out of the hole your in. Save/work more. Borrow less. You may not want to hear that, but the real answer is work hard and save. Reducing and consolidating your debt will give you a little more flexibility. Eliminating the vehicle debt and driving something cheaper you can better afford would be a place to start. Cutting up the credit cards would be another. Best of luck.


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## Jags (Mar 16, 2011)

Get rid of one of those car loans.  I'm not saying to "not have the car", but ya probably don't need two "new" ones.  Sell it, take the cash and purchase a lesser car and use that loan payment money to finance the stove and install.

Get rid of your interest bearing loans that can't be a tax advantage (tax advantage = the house).


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## Fsappo (Mar 16, 2011)

Cheap EPA Stove to start.  Buy things as they show up on sale.  Pay cash.


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## raybonz (Mar 16, 2011)

I also suggest you start gathering firewood now before you get a stove so you will have good fuel ready to burn.. Cut, split and stack it off the ground on pallets etc. and if you cover it just cover the top.. Try to stack it where it will get good wind and sun exposure for better results.. Then save a few bucks and pick an Englander at HD on clearance or a good condition used EPA rated stove.. You will also need to determine your chimney needs..

Good Luck!

Ray


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## MishMouse (Mar 16, 2011)

I agree with the above also.
My philosophy on getting something extra is if I can't afford to pay cash for it I do not get it.
While watching TV last week a financial adviser talked about living "below" your means.
This is good advise for our current economy.

Myself I am in the market for a 7 passenger transportation.
I passed on many good buys so far that would have required me to take a loan to pay for it.

As for my advise on buying a stove now when they are on sale, do not do it unless you have the money for it.

Look at your debt, and try to find ways to reduce it, if this means getting rid of the cars and going to a cheaper more efficient compact, do it. Interest is a killer and it will destroy you. 
Do not use credit cards unless you can afford to pay them off when the bill comes.
If you find yourself running a balance and making min payment it is time to cut up the credit card.
Do not go out to eat, do not go to movies, bring your lunch to work.
Remember "Ramen noodles" are your friend.
Save, save, save...


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## certified106 (Mar 16, 2011)

Sorry this won't help you at all but my Dad gave me my first wood stove when they got their new Dutchwest. It was 10 years old at the time and a little bit bigger than they currently needed for their house (fit mine perfectly). Nine years later I am still using it and just now getting in the position to drop some bucks on a new one. 

I agree with one of the other posters if you are serious about heating with wood go ahead and buy an Englander 30 it seems to be a great budget stove and then worry about getting your chimney and hearth together. If you watch Craigslist you can sometimes find chimney systems to take down for a great price and save some serious bucks.


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## begreen (Mar 16, 2011)

Have to agree with Jags. Get out of debt. When we got out of college we had a used car. We didn't have a house loan until we were in our 30's. Our furniture was thrift store and Salvation Army specials. Get an older well maintained, reliable vehicle and keep it up. Use public transportation if possible and save where you can.


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## Fsappo (Mar 16, 2011)

Doin the same thing right now.  Had to spend about 50K to adopt my wifes daughter (still not done) the situation REQUIRED us to to get into debt.  Before this, life was kinda easy.  Now, its peanut butter sandwiches, deer meat and Oneida Lake fish.  No movies, no going out, no new clothes.  We live cheap and put every penny extra we have towards paying down debt.  It may feel like its taking forever, but your young.  I've been thru it before in my 20's (debt incurred via poor lifestyle) and after a few years of digging out, it was well worth it.  I'm serious.  As I sit at my desk there is a loaf of bread and peanut butter in my drawer.  I dig my own worms and help process deer for the free meat.


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## Nater (Mar 16, 2011)

I am in the same position as you, but one year out.  We graduated a few years ago with school loans, bought a house, and one car on loan.  We are tight on cash too.  We don't go out and half our meals are some sort of pasta.  We had a stove left here from the previous owners (who never used it) which was left from the owners before them, so it is an old pre-EPA stove but it works.  We didn't burn wood our first winter here and were going through over 200 gallons of oil a month and keeping the thermostats at only 60 during the day and 50 at night.  

We had a baby last spring and knew we couldn't keep the house that cold so we ended up getting our chimney professionally lined (and it needed a little bit of repair).  We didn't have the cash for it so we ended up getting a new credit card to cover the expense (about $2000).  If we would have waited until we saved enough, I'm not sure when we would have been able to do it.  After buying wood, we still have saved close to the $2000.  And the house was much warmer, 70+ degrees.

As great as it sounds to get out of debt and save, it was not realistic in our case.  If we saved first, it would have taken years to do and ended up costing us way more than the liner + interest on the credit card.  If you can't get financing, could you try to borrow off of relatives?  My in-laws are great but I know everyone is not as lucky.

If you can swing it, I would recommend getting the Englander NC30 as others have recommended.  And depending on your chimney needs, you might be able to do it yourself to save a lot on installation costs.


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## smokeater (Mar 16, 2011)

I know where your coming from trying to scrape up enough money for your first stove,we started out with a cheap stove and I had a carpenter come and cut the required holes and do the bracing for the pipe and then worked the bill off with the carpenter,this left the installer to pay but it wasnt that much as most of the work was done.The stove paid for itself and the installation in a couple of seasons. In a few years we were able to upgrade to a better stove and plan on one more upgrade in the next couple of years.Find a way to get it done as the cost of your furnace fuel will probably pay for your stove in short order.One thing to watch for is put the stove in a place where you can upgrade to a better stove with little or no trouble (clearences etc.) Good luck!


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## joecool85 (Mar 16, 2011)

Excellent advice guys.  We are already doing most of it.  Both car loans have 2 years left and are on used vehicles we got good deals on (a 2000 Ranger I bought for $5,400 2 years ago and a 2002 Focus we got for $5k last year).  I don't really want anything older/cheaper than that because it needs to be reliable transportation.

As for the scrimping thing, we already do.  We don't eat out (not even McDonalds etc), we grow most of our own vegetables and fruit (still eating canned stuff now from last year) and we never buy new clothes since we have a great second hand clothes shop near us.  The credit card debt we have is from when we were in college and had no other way to pay things for a short period.  Still paying it off now.  We pay a little more than twice what the minimum payment is.

As for wood, we have 4 cords cut split and stacked ready to burn from 2 years ago and another cord I need to split that is already mostly seasoned - it was cut a little more than a year ago.  We will probably cut split and stack another 3-4 cord this summer.  I'm hoping to burn about 3 cord per year to bring down our fuel costs, it won't be our sole heat source.

Due to space limitations in our home we will need to get a small stove with good clearances.  The best option we have found is the Morso 1440.  We looked at the Englander 17VL and while the price was attractive, the clearances weren't quite as good and the wife wasn't happy with it either.  We will need to install a steel chimney up through 2 floors (well, only THROUGH the second floor).  So the $2,500 I talked about at the beginning covered the stove, the chimney and all bits and pieces to install including building a small hearth with gate.


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## Jags (Mar 16, 2011)

Sounds to me like you just need to keep on, keeping on.  Your doing the right things and your supposed to be broke when you are young.  Its just the way things were meant to be. :lol: 

We can't all be rich old farts (I'm not gonna mention any names here) ;-P


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## snowleopard (Mar 16, 2011)

Given what you've described, I'd consider putting what money you have into a good chimney system, and install the least-expensive stove you can--possibly even a 35-gallon barrel stove from a kit.  If you go that route, get a steel barrel, and put sand and firebrick in the bottom to keep the barrel from burning out.  You might have to install that offset to the chimney system to deal with the clearances for now, or insulate the wall behind the stove.   It'll be easier to swap out a stove than a chimney, and a good chimney is critical to your safety.  Let the fuel savings from that cheap stove buy your next stove.    There's a country saying from way back: a barn will build a house, but a house will never build a barn.   

Congratulations, btw, on your degrees and the reason for the gate on the hearth.   Sounds like you're doing everything right.  Keep it up, it'll get easier.


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## KarlP (Mar 16, 2011)

Being in debt was the only real down side to my life in my 20s.  My advice is to pay it off as quickly as you can.  Just imagine the freedom you'd have without a mortgage or auto loan, and the ability to cover your CC balances in full every month.  IMO that freedom is well worth scrimping in your 20s.

You really have two choices.  Make more or spend less.  Perhaps you could try a little of both?

Maybe try to find some side work revamping primative websites for local businesses or something else in your skill set?

Perhaps use that side job money to buy and install a top quality chimney you'll use for decades but install a cheap ugly used stove off craigslist to use use for a few seasons while you get out of auto and credit card debt?


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## joecool85 (Mar 16, 2011)

Jags said:
			
		

> Sounds to me like you just need to keep on, keeping on.  Your doing the right things and your supposed to be broke when you are young.  Its just the way things were meant to be. :lol:
> 
> We can't all be rich old farts (I'm not gonna mention any names here) ;-P



Thanks.  That's what we're planning on doing.  Normally I would want to put anything like this on a credit card of a loan but because it would pay itself back in fuel savings around the same time we'd be paying off the loan or CC debt, I figured it was worth considering.

For now I'm going to try to do some more side jobs and my wife is trying to pick up some more hours at work.  I'm salary, so it doesn't matter how many hours I work lol.


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## ozzy73 (Mar 16, 2011)

Rember you dont need to get a brand new stove. See if you can get a free or used stove to start with. I got my stove for free, put new glass, new firebricks, new coat of paint on it for approx $300. As far as student/car loans, been there done that. Glad its over. See if you can make some lump sum payments towards the loans to pay it off quicker.

As my wife always says...be Froogle with eveything.

Ozzy


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## Backwoods Savage (Mar 16, 2011)

Joe, your situation sounds so familiar but it does sound like you are doing many of the necessary things. There very well may be more you could do though and remember that debt is one of the very worse things that anyone can have. It is slavery in the modern world and you will be a slave until those debts are repaid. The credit card debt it perhaps the worst sword hanging over you but I am wondering if it might be possible to borrow (I hate that thought...) enough to pay off both cars and the credit card debt; a consolidation loan. This might increase the interest rate a little on the car loans but would decrease the credit card interest rate drastically. You could also possibly reduce the total payment, especially since you are now paying double on the credit cards. 

I have told our kids that if at all possible, never go in debt. That is really difficult when it comes to housing but it is possible! On cars, people say they paid x $'s on the car....but did they? The amount one pays is not the selling price. The amount is the selling price plus taxes plus insurance plus licensing plus interest. Add it all up and you will then be able to say what you paid or will pay for that car. I don't recall the amount we paid for our last car but do remember figuring that out with someone else and sadly I do not remember the difference. But we paid cash for the new car and then someone calculated the difference if we had financed it. A real eye opener for sure! The same goes for housing. There are ways to decrease this cost but it is not something that many will be prepared to do. There are also other things one can do within the budget to cut costs. One big one today is cell phones. What about cable service? What about Internet service? Everyone needs to ask if those things are really necessary or are they actually luxuries.

I also recall when my first wife and I were married. We had little. Our car, which was purchased less than 2 months before our marriage cost a total of $120. We did buy a home but paid $7,500 for it and that include all furnishings. It suited both of us well. We had no television and only a small portable radio. We did have phone service but at that time we paid the bill once every 3 months. Our service charge was less than $10 for the 3 months. In addition, we made very, very few long distance calls because that was an added expense. One can save on the cost of fuel too. For example, if you take showers, take a military shower. That means to get in the shower and turn on the water only long enough to get your body wet. Then soap down the entire body before turning the water back on to rinse. This not only saves dollars on heating water but if you are in the city you save on the water bill. If in the country you save electricity use by not running the water pump so much. There are other things you can do and I advise sitting down several times to look at all dollars you have and where those dollars are going. Then and only then can you really determine exact ways you can save dollars. 

Back to the heating situation. For this year you will have to determine how much money you will be paying out. Weight the cost of installing the stove and the cost of the fuel vs the cost of heating the home with oil or gas. Which ever is the cheaper way to go should be the final decision. If that means waiting a year before getting the stove in, then you just have to wait.

This also brings to mind one time, again with my first wife when we had finally bought a television. She had found one in a second hand store but it was unknown if it really was any good and the guy wanted $20 for it. My wife, being frugal, purchased it for less than $10. It did not work so I took it to someone I knew and told him if it could be fixed for less than $20 to fix it. Otherwise, throw it out. I went back in a week and it had cost me $10. Years later that tv went berserk. I told my wife that I would not buy a tv again unless we could afford a color tv. (Yes, we had black & white at the time). We saved for over a year until we could buy one. We got along just fine without the tv during that time and even today, we have the tv on very little. My guess is less than 20 total hours per year that our tv is on. Again, there are ways to save dollars. 

Through all of this, do not forget to pay yourself a little. 10% is ideal but perhaps you can even trim this amount. However much you pay yourself, put it into the bank and don't spend it. That way it will earn some interest and compound interest is your friend.

Guess I'm getting carried away here. Good luck.


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## ddddddden (Mar 16, 2011)

+1 on Smokeater's thoughts about getting a starter stove and upgrading. I understand that space is tight in a 1200 sq ft house and that you want to tuck the stove into an alcove, but the 1440 has only ~ 0.74 cu ft of firebox. You will be loading it ~ hourly to put a dent in your oil bill. Also the firebox is ~ 10 x 12". Is the wood you have CSS cut to ~10" length? If not, you are looking at recutting all of it. Doh! Also, 10" splits make for tipsy stacks. I suggest that you post a floor plan and let heart.com work its magic to find a location in your house for a stove 2-3x the size of the 1440. Maybe an Englander 13 for ~ $500, then get a pretty cast iron stove after several seasons of not buying oil.   You're already doing the hard part of saving $ with wood, why hamstring yourself with a tiny stove?


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## zzr7ky (Mar 16, 2011)

Hi - 

I did all my research.  Built my own scaffolding, dragooned a buddy to help lay the brick part of the chimney, installed the liner (rigid w/insulation).   It was a fair bit of work but paid back right away.

See what the component parts cost.  Talk to some of the supliers.  Then get a stove used or on clearance.  A lot of folks get stoves from Lowes, etc on end of season clearance.


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## woodchip (Mar 16, 2011)

I go along with all the advice given, and would add just one little thing........

Try to choose a stove with a flat top so that you can cook your meals on it too. 
We grow our own veggies etc., and to be honest, we have two savings with out stove, we have free heat, and we can cook a whole meal easily on it too. 
Boil water for coffee on it as well and before you know it you will have saved a small fortune on utilities!!


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## ddddddden (Mar 16, 2011)

+1 on all the Suze Orman type advice too, but she would tell you that there's a time to borrow. If you have dry wood ready to burn, it's costing you $ to wait to buy a stove and heat with oil. You'd have to crunch the #'s to be sure, but I doubt that the interest on $2500 for 1 year would be more than, say, 500 Gal of oll. . .but I'm going to play Suze and challenge you to do it for $1500!  Englander 13 or CL find for $600. Chimney liner for $500. No chimney? Stovepipe inside the house and class A outside, Selkirk SuperVent @ Lowe's for $68/3-ft. See if HD or Lowe's are running 0% until 2012 financing, or if you can get a new CC with a similar promo. There's a web site with hot CC promo's listed, but I don't recall the URL. www.fatwallet.com would be a good place to ask about good CC deals.


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## Lumber-Jack (Mar 16, 2011)

Put an ad in craigslist etc... that you are looking for a used wood stove and chimney and would be willing to remove it from someone's home if they want to get rid of theirs. Lot's of people who buy homes have no use for the wood stoves that came with their house when they bought it, to them it's just an eye sore and they'd just as soon see it removed.
When he heard that I was heating with wood my neighbor offered me an old stove he removed from his place, and some insulated chimney pipe and a chimney brush kit , all for $100. The stove, although older, has been working fine in my shop. The chimney pipe and brush kits was basically like brand new, when I priced it out at the store would have cost me over $500 alone. 
Don't hesitate to mention your financial situation in the ad like you did here, that might garner some extra sympathy.   ;-)


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## pen (Mar 16, 2011)

If you look for a stove on craig's list, just be sure you know what you are buying.  I'd only suggest an EPA stove to you.

I purchased mine Englander 30 that was 1 year used for 450.  It also came w/ a brand new extra set of baffle boards.  A guy tried installing it in a trailer and cooked them out so he wanted to get rid of it.

If you have an existing chimney you can throw a SS liner down it for probably less than 500.  If not, a new Class A will be more but if you do it yourself will save you 50%.

Regardless, get your wood on hand NOW!  Or else you won't be able to enjoy a new stove.  If the stove isn't ready for this coming winter, the wood would still be there waiting for you the following year.

pen


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## Jimbob (Mar 16, 2011)

......And if you look at used ones, don't pay too much. A BRAND NEW EPA stove can be bought around here for $700, any day of the week.
I have seen good deals on used insulated chimney in the classifieds.

Off topic but,
An adoption costs $50K down there? Yikes! :-/


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## Highbeam (Mar 16, 2011)

Doesn't cost 50k$, there must have been "circumstances" and attorneys.


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## Wade A. (Mar 16, 2011)

Joe, I'm going to go against the grain on most of the advice you've been given. Most of us here, I'm predicting, by our very nature are fiscal conservatives, and I think of myself as one also. However, I'm not one to say that all debt is bad. There is good, and necessary debt, and bad and frivolous debt. Covering entertainment expenses by high interest revolving consumer debt is soundly in the second category. A woodstove, in my opinion, is not. A couple of reasons why. 

First off, it is a durable good, that depreciates at an extremely slow rate. That is just another way of saying, "it lasts." It is also an appliance that will reduce your power/gas bill AND increase your degree of comfort in your home. Secondarily (or maybe even primarily)when you are comfortable, you live better, make better decisions and are less likely to throw money at your discontentment, as many around us do everyday. It is not real estate, but it is the next best thing: A fixture to real estate. It can be sold with a house to increase the value of the property, or it can reasonably be removed and installed in a new dwelling.    And lastly, it is likely to bring you and your new bride closer together over many a winter night. THAT my friend, is worth a few interest points if nothing else is.

So, I guess that what I'm saying is that I'd look less at the fact that you may be taking on more debt, and look more closely at the nature of that debt. From the sketch you've painted of your fiscal habits, I'd say that you are a low risk to get crazy. Between now and the next heating season, save, yes, but when the frost is next on the pumpkin, shop for a low interest loan, possibly a home equity one, or start buying a stove on lay-away from a retailor who is willing to do that for you.  Enjoy.


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## orionrogue (Mar 16, 2011)

Although I'm not fresh out of school, my wife and I just had a baby not too long ago and the economic strain is not insignificant.  I was hoping to go ahead with a stove insert for 2010 before the tax incentive expired, but I wasn't willing to finance the cost (right before Christmas, too!) and we'd just gotten the family mover (minivan) so our discretionary funds were pretty much depleted.  So for 2010-1, it just didn't happen.

Things to keep in mind:  Save where you can, when you can.  It can be little or large, and I won't reiterate what's already been said here for details.  All good ideas.  Right now you have debt that you know about and your long term goal should be to eliminate that as soon as reasonably possible, from highest to lowest pain.  Generally, that's credit cards, followed by auto, then student loans and/or mortgage.  Since mortgages are so large (in MA anyway...) its something you'll be with for a while.

The only other thing I'd say, and I think it was stated already, is to gather your cordwood NOW, and as much as possible.  If you don't have a solution for next season, it'll still be there for you in 2012-13.  So start that, absolutely.  You can always install the stove in the summer/fall, but that wood will need all season to dry out enough to be of any use to you next winter.  Good luck to both you and your bride.

Oh, and for your estimate, fuel oil in New England will absolutely before over $4/gal, approaching $5.


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## Jack Straw (Mar 16, 2011)

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but I think get the main points. Wouldn't it be great to form a consortium of Hearth.com members that could fund such projects. I would be willing to invest say $50. If we could get enough money together to help people in this type of situation and they could pay us back with interest. Maybe this could be a way to help spread the "wood burning lifestyle" and lower our country's oil dependency. I know its a little crazy, but your not gonna change things without thinking out of the box.


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## raybonz (Mar 16, 2011)

You could always buy this fine heating appliance for $50.00 lol..

http://southcoast.craigslist.org/grd/2229949910.html

Ray


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## Dune (Mar 16, 2011)

Buy a used stove. I bought my present stove at a scrapyard for $75. It is a gasser even though it is 30 years old. I got my previous stove at a yard sale for free. It was an antique and needed a lot of work. I bought a VC Defiant back in the day for $400 used out of the classified. That was the king of stoves back then. Down here on the Cape, there are always used stoves for sale. If you find one on craigslist, submit pictures here. These folks know which used stove are good and which are junk. Explain to the wife that this is just a starter stove and she can have house jewelry next time. You will save enough bucks on oil to buy a new stove after the first winter. Keep your eyes out for a Tempwood. That is what I burn. The first gassifier, tons of heat, easy to run, huge box for overnight, easy on wood.


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## VCBurner (Mar 16, 2011)

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...&cj=true&srccode=cii_9324560&locStoreNum=2624

HD is still advertising this whopper of a deal for $650 with free delivery.  If you're looking for an affordable stove, this is it!  You can look around for a used one and get it even cheaper, but at this price you'd be silly to pass it up.  This stove normally goes for $1000 and even at this price is an affordable modern stove that is highly regarded here on this site.  As others have said you can line an existing masonry chimney for as little as $260 (if it is 15' tall,) a class A can be had for a few hundred also.  Installing it yourself is easy and will $ave you lots of money.  Once youy go through next winter, you'll be able to buy just about any stove with the money you'll save on heating costs.  Buy the stove now and save up for the chimney in the fall.  Meanwhile get your wood ready and learn how to install the chimney and look around for good prices.  By the winter you'll be ready to heat.

FYI, I have two EPA rated catalytic stoves that are still being made today that were purchased from Craigslist for a combined cost of $950.  The first is a Dutchwest by Vermont Castings, new around $1500, I paid $550 for a rebuilt one.  The second a Vermont Castings Defiant Encore, new around $2500, I paid $400 for a used one in great condition.  I'm not against buying used stoves and usually would be the first to say go for it.  But this Englander 30-NCH stove has to be one of the best deals out there.  It is unbelievable to me that HD is able to offer them at this price.  It just goes to show the power of the big box stores (I'm not a big fan of the big box stores either!)  Get yourself one and share your experience, I'll be willing to bet you won't regret it.

Good luck, keep us posted!


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## raybonz (Mar 16, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&productId=100291302&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&PID=500871&cm_mmc=CJ-_-500871-_-10368321&cpncode=25-43987369-2&AID=10368321&cj=true&srccode=cii_9324560&locStoreNum=2624
> 
> HD is still advertising this whopper of a deal for $650 with free delivery.  If you're looking for an affordable stove, this is it!  You can look around for a used one and get it even cheaper, but at this price you'd be silly to pass it up.  This stove normally goes for $1000 and even at this price is an affordable modern stove that is highly regarded here on this site.  As others have said you can line an existing masonry chimney for as little as $260 (if it is 15' tall,) a class A can be had for a few hundred also.  Installing it yourself is easy and will $ave you lots of money.  Once youy go through next winter, you'll be able to buy just about any stove with the money you'll save on heating costs.
> 
> ...



Surprised you haven't sprung for one yet and sold the VC ... I am impressed how clean burning the NC30 is rated (the efficiency is not as good at 63%) ! That stove burns almost as clean as a cat stove.. The 30 would be too big for this house I think and would cook me out of it.. Still one hellava deal..

Ray


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## Backwoods Savage (Mar 16, 2011)

Jack Straw said:
			
		

> I haven't read all of the posts on this thread, but I think get the main points. Wouldn't it be great to form a consortium of Hearth.com members that could fund such projects. I would be willing to invest say $50. If we could get enough money together to help people in this type of situation and they could pay us back with interest. Maybe this could be a way to help spread the "wood burning lifestyle" and lower our country's oil dependency. I know its a little crazy, but your not gonna change things without thinking out of the box.



Jack, I too have thought about this but fear it could easily get out of hand. We have to remember this forum is open to all and someone with perhaps not as honorable intentions could come to get some dollars and how would we recoup those dollars if they just ran off? I think it would be very difficult to implement and control.


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## bogydave (Mar 16, 2011)

Most all of us have been there. You buy what you 'NEED", "wants" take a back seat for a while.
I bought many used items. Never had a new car till in my late 40s.
So many extra - part time jobs I've forgot  most of them. 
Traded work for items. 
Debt is a killer & hard to get ahead of. (+ almost impossible to retire with debt)
Pay your bills, then pay yourself with (buy only "needs) savings IRA etc. 
None left, that's ok,  you owe nobody. Your ahead of 70% of Americans.

It will turn out well, hard work prevails. 
No "instant - add water"  solutions. Keeping up with the Jones means having their "debt too"
Time & honest work, frugal & smart decisions.  You may be able to retire early.
To have what a 50 or 60 year old person has at the age of 25, means your future is mortgaged & some banker got rich off of your work.

Buy a used stove, or trade some work for one. Type don't matter now. 
So you burn a little more wood. Just cut more. You will be working for "you", no taxes.  Owe nobody for it.  kinda nice .
The time will come when you can get a better one, by then you know what a better one is & if it will meet "your needs" & fit your budget. 

Only when you are debt free, are "you working for you"


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## Todd (Mar 16, 2011)

What about refinancing your mortage? Rates are low and you may be able to bundle all your debt together and pay less per month.


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## Adios Pantalones (Mar 17, 2011)

I prayed to Cthulhu


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## yooperdave (Mar 17, 2011)

just like the vehicles you described as owning, also start with a used wood stove.  the money you will save on your heating bills can then be used for other bills...but in reality, you won't see any of the "saved money", its just that you won't have to spend as much.   but, i would think you can find a good used wood stove and your estimate of $2500 would be reduced by....1/2...or more????


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## Jaugust124 (Mar 17, 2011)

If you go to Lowes or Home Depot for a stove they usually offer 0% interest for 12 months on purchases over $299.  

I know more debt may not sound like a good idea, but if its interest free and you can be dedicated enough to get it paid off inside of 12 months, 
you may be able to make this work for you.  You just have to make sure it gets paid off or you will get hit with a full 12 months worth of interest at what will surely be a very high interest rate.  

Whats nice about Lowes and HD is that you are not required to pay a certain amount each month, 
you just pay what you can.  It just takes some discipline to make that payment, but it sounds like you have that already.  Good luck.


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## VCBurner (Mar 17, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Surprised you haven't sprung for one yet and sold the VC ... I am impressed how clean burning the NC30 is rated (the efficiency is not as good at 63%) ! That stove burns almost as clean as a cat stove.. The 30 would be too big for this house I think and would cook me out of it.. Still one hellava deal..
> 
> Ray



These NC30 stoves aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  Plus, I'd have a really hard time selling the idea of another $650 spent on stoves this year.  So far the Encore was $400, warming shelves were $90 something, new cat for the DW about $60 (find of the century, thanks to you!).  The total is about $550.  That total is still small compared to the savings in heating costs.  Keep in mind I still need a full liner in my chimney!  The Englanders are taking the woodburning world by storm by getting together with HD, as much as I hate the thought.  I hope this continues to be a winning formula for them and they continue to create more jobs here in the US.  We all know what happens when these companies get too big.  Their britches get made in China!  

Anyway, before I think about buying another one, I need to sell one of the four that are in here now! :wow:   The old cast iron stove will become some sort of outdoor stove!  The Surdiac combo stove will be subject to a possible rebuild and sale.  I want to refurbish it before it goes to someone else.  I won't sell it unless it is safe to operate.  A thermostat and some glass strips as well as gaskets are needed.  The thing is great with coal.  24 hour loads!  The Encore has yet to burn and I will not sell it before it does.  It could turn out to be a killer stove.  It has two big advantages over the Dutchwest: top loading and thermostatic control.  These are very usefull attributes, that coupled with even higher efficiency and longer burn times, could prove to be the winning combination in this household!  Always nice talking to you Ray!


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## Alan Gage (Mar 17, 2011)

What's the house like? What is the insulation level in the walls/attic? What are the windows like? How drafty is it?

As much as I like wood stoves if it's a drafty, poorly insulated house, the money would probably be better spent taking care of those items. That alone would lower your fuel costs and when it came time to get a wood stove you could get by with a smaller one and it would be better able to heat the place.

Have you ever used a small stove before? I only ask since you're looking at stoves with very small fireboxes. I just got the Englander 17-VL (had the NC-30 before) because I'm building a small, energy efficient house this summer and it should be the right size. I did a break in fire outside with it over the weekend and I was surprised how small a 1.1 cu. ft. firebox really is. Much of my wood that's already cut (9 cords) will be too long and a lot of it will need to be split smaller. It looks like it might be hard stuffing it with wood and keeping the splits from rolling out.

BTW, I'm in the "save money, pay cash" crowd.

Alan


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## VCBurner (Mar 17, 2011)

joecool85 said:
			
		

> I'm in a bit of a tough spot. My wife and I are fresh out of college so we are paying on student loans as well as a house loan and two car loans...needless to say we are tight on cash.
> 
> *So, what did you guys do?* Anyone else in a real tight spot have a creative solution? Or is it just save, save, save?
> 
> I really want to get a stove in before next winter.



*Hey Joe, here's what I did*, BTW. My first stove was advertised for $100 on craigslist and I paid $80 for it. Never pay asking price for anything! At least not if it's the full price. It heated my house for an entire season. The cost of the fuel it saved was well over $1500 for the first year. The wood was scrounged. And we here can relate to the $ shortage! We started heating with wood because we had no money for oil! The price had reached $4/gallon and we didn't have $400 for a minimum delivery. So I bought a cord of wood to burn in a fireplace and keep the furnace from burning the last drop of oil that was in there. Since then we went from an old cast iron (1936) to a 1980 combination stove to two modern catalytic stoves that when combined could heat 3500 sq ft. We are a family of six and my income is the only one in the home. To add to the trouble, since the housing market crashed, I saw a $25,000/ year pay cut. We have seen an increase since that dramatic drop off. But nothing like the pre-recession. We have adjusted and are just barely bouncing back. More like rolling along! :cheese: Thanks to wood heat, we have not run out of oil and are always warm. In fact, if it drops below 73 in here we are cold! 

Good luck, stay warm, search on!

Chris


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## Adios Pantalones (Mar 17, 2011)

I sell an autographed line of rubber protuberances.

OK- I'm done now


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## Billy123 (Mar 17, 2011)

I would sell the place and move back in with Mom and Dad, and then flood the place with little one's.


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## joecool85 (Mar 17, 2011)

The ideas just keep coming huh guys?

Ok, about our home.  It is a 1,250 sq foot two story cape in Central Maine.  It's reasonably well insulated with blown cellulose in the walls and a foot of fiberglass batting in the attic.  It's not drafty anymore now that I've gone through and foamed up (I love spray foam) all of the areas we had draft the first year.  Even when it is -20F outside there is no significant draft.  We have a hot water boiler that provides our heat via baseboard as well as our domestic hot water.  We go through 700-750 gallons of #2 oil every year.

Our living room, where the stove would go, has no chimney.  In fact, the only chimney in the house goes up through the kitchen and has the boiler on it.  Anyway, the living room is only 14' x 16' so we don't have a lot of space.  We would like to put the stove in the corner and it would go "between" the baseboards.  This gives us a 37" x 54" spot to put a stove.  Due to clearances etc, unless we put protection on the walls, we only have a few options for stoves that "fit".  Primarily the Morso 1440 and the Englander 17VL.  I could fudge the numbers a little bit and squeeze a Jotul 602CB in, but I want to make sure it is totally safe as well as ok with my insurance co (and wife for that matter).

I'm all for a used stove, but finding one to fit in our living room would be next to impossible.  Someone else mentioned buying a used chimney...which I'm also not fond of and I think the insurance co wouldn't love it either.  We're working on coming up with some ideas to scrape together some cash to get a stove and chimney and we'll have to sit down and see what we have for progress in that dept. in a month or two and re-evaluate.


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## Poult (Mar 17, 2011)

Craig's List.  I saw a stove just like mine, same age, but used only one winter, for $800.  I damn near wanted to buy it as a spare.    Someone got themselves one heck of a bargain on that stove.  Look around and you'll find a deal.


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## billb3 (Mar 17, 2011)

Home Depot here marked the 2 VL-17 they have left from  $520 to $480 Sunday.
( kinda surprised, in the past they just put them up on a shelf for next year and use the space for  lawnmowers  by now)

I like the looks of the Morso, too, but I have a hard time  seeing myself cutting wood at 11 to 12 inches.
and buying even 15-16 inches around here is hard enough. 

I cut my own, so  length really isn't an issue
but I am three years ahead and everything is 16" long.

Plain and practical starts looking pretty good, especially to the wallet.


You've got plenty of time ahead of you to have nice stuff.
Worry about getting there.


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## oilstinks (Mar 17, 2011)

Bought mine on clearance at Home Depot in spring and talked them down a few more dollars. Englander NC13 $460


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## Sisu (Mar 17, 2011)

Adios Pantalones said:
			
		

> I prayed to Cthulhu


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## Dune (Mar 17, 2011)

joecool85 said:
			
		

> The ideas just keep coming huh guys?
> 
> Ok, about our home.  It is a 1,250 sq foot two story cape in Central Maine.  It's reasonably well insulated with blown cellulose in the walls and a foot of fiberglass batting in the attic.  It's not drafty anymore now that I've gone through and foamed up (I love spray foam) all of the areas we had draft the first year.  Even when it is -20F outside there is no significant draft.  We have a hot water boiler that provides our heat via baseboard as well as our domestic hot water.  We go through 700-750 gallons of #2 oil every year.
> 
> ...



If you are short on space, put protection on the walls.


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## Fsappo (Mar 17, 2011)

Sisu said:
			
		

> Adios Pantalones said:
> 
> 
> 
> > I prayed to Cthulhu



I thought he was summoned, not prayed to.  Trivial I suppose


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 17, 2011)

joecool85 said:
			
		

> The ideas just keep coming huh guys?
> 
> Ok, about our home.  It is a 1,250 sq foot two story cape in Central Maine.  It's reasonably well insulated with blown cellulose in the walls and a foot of fiberglass batting in the attic.  It's not drafty anymore now that I've gone through and foamed up (I love spray foam) all of the areas we had draft the first year.  Even when it is -20F outside there is no significant draft.  We have a hot water boiler that provides our heat via baseboard as well as our domestic hot water.  We go through 700-750 gallons of #2 oil every year.



Been following this thread, and have a similar setup as you with a boiler for both heat and hot water. (We dont have a separate hot water tank that is oil fired, just the boiler)

We have a little larger home (1800 ft, built in 1999 with very good insulation), and I burn from about 6am to 10:00pm just about every day, and with the insert it heats the home nicely. However, due to having domestic hot water supplied via the boiler, we didn't really see a big savings in oil usage, as I underestimated hot much oil was being used for hot water in the non heating months...some data is below:

Oil Use        Days    Gallons        Ave/Day    Price

12/1/2006    2/6/2007    67.00    230.4        3.439    $2.30
2/6/2007    4/17/2007    70.00    222.5        3.179    $2.40
4/17/2007    11/8/2007    205.00    190.2        0.928    $2.90
           342.00    643.1        1.880    

11/8/2007    1/5/2008    58.00    195.8        3.376    $3.35
1/5/2008    3/4/2008    59.00    204.2        3.461    $3.45
3/4/2008    5/30/2008    87.00    164.3        1.889    $4.35
5/30/2008    12/3/2008    187.00    189.7        1.014    $2.14
        391.00    754        1.928    

12/3/2008    2/27/2009    86.00    186.5        2.169    $1.97
2/27/2009    8/12/2009    166.00    217.5        1.310    $2.25
8/12/2009    1/4/2010    145.00    208        1.434    $2.70
        397.00    612        1.542    

1/4/2010    4/28/2010    114.00    196        1.719    $2.79
4/28/2010    11/9/2010    195.00    198        1.015    $2.85
11/9/2010    1/31/2011    83.00    194.2        2.340    $3.30
        392.00    588.2        1.501    $2.98

Overall, since getting the insert, we have dropped our oil use from about 1.9 gallons/day to 1.5...for a savings of appx .4 gallons/day or 150 gallons/year. We do keep our home much warmer.....usually 68-70 downstairs vs 64-65 prior to the stove, but due to our inefficent hot water heating, the savings on oil really weren't as much as I had planned. Your situation may be different, but just wanted to give you some info in case you could use it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that as other folks have mentioned you probably should look at your entire heating system as a whole, and decide where you could get the most bang for your buck. I am a pyro at heart, and love splitting/stacking and burning wood...but based on true economics in my situation, I would have been better off installing an electric hot water heater first to prevent using 30-40 gallons of oil/month during the summer for just hot water.


Good luck, and keep us posted


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## joecool85 (Mar 17, 2011)

Dave,

I've thought about that with the dhw usage.  If the wood stove doesn't help us much we may consider going to an electric hot water heater, but for now I'm not comfortable doing that.  I don't like electric water heaters - not sure why, just don't care for them.


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## daveswoodhauler (Mar 17, 2011)

joecool85 said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I've thought about that with the dhw usage.  If the wood stove doesn't help us much we may consider going to an electric hot water heater, but for now I'm not comfortable doing that.  I don't like electric water heaters - not sure why, just don't care for them.



Me neither, probably why I haven't gotten one yet either  
We are on well water, and I have heard some rough stories on the electric units with well water.
Also, with a larger wood unit capable of overnight burns, you would much more of an oil savings. Good luck on the hunt.


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## Sisu (Mar 17, 2011)

Franks said:
			
		

> Sisu said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Either way, the Elder Sign should protect the thread!


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## snowleopard (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't think anyone has mentioned this here, but another good place to look for a bargain on stoves is the stuff-for-sale forum on hearth.com.  Someone had a Fireview Classic there a few months ago for $900, out in your general neck of the woods.


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## thinkxingu (Mar 17, 2011)

I didn't get through every post here, but most I read said the same thing, "don't go in debt," which is fairly ridiculous to tell college students who've had to make it (seemingly) on their own.  My wife and I are teachers, and we'll be paying school loans probably forever.  But there was no way I was staying in an apartment throwing money out the window or driving older cars that could leave my wife and child stranded.  So, as Brian Blush once sung: 

"I owe, I owe, I know, I know:  Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
It doesn't matter what I do
She's gonna keep on sinking
Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic
I realize now, my time was better spent drinking."

S


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## mkling (Mar 17, 2011)

Being a fairly recent grad and homeowner you might be getting taxes back. If you both have college loans then all that interest it deductible and along with your mortgage interest and property tax it should amount to a fairly sizable refund, assuming you haven't adjusted your take-home pay to lower you refund each year (I never did this). This is how I helped to pay for my PB150 pellet boiler a few years ago. I never planned tax refunds into my yearly budget so it is always money that can be spent on something other than bills for that year, usually some type of home renovation/upgrade. Last year it was an above ground pool, the year before that a new deck, and the year before that to help pay for my boiler. I usually try to do a lot of the labor involved in these things myself to lower the overall cost, of course for the boiler I hired someone to do the install since the safety of my family was worth the extra cost. After the fact though I realized I probably could have saved a bit by doing the chimney pipe myself as there is really not much to it, in fact I have pretty much redone my entire chimney myself since the original install.


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## btuser (Mar 17, 2011)

To go used its still going to run you $1500 or so with a used stove, venting and protection/pimpin' you ride.  $3000 for new, but that's really a rough estimate.  At $4/gallon your fuel bill is going to be about $2000/year (if you're still using oil for HW, I figure 200 gall/yr for oil.  I like the 12 months no interest/no payments options in your situation.  You could pay into what you would have to buy in oil anyway, and with any luck by the end of next Winter you would have saved enough to pay for the stove, interest free.  Keep in mind, however, that is 24/7 burning with no oil for heat.  You'd be trying to replace 500 gallons of oil with 4 cords of wood-that's tight, and serious work for a new wood burner with a new-to-me stove.  Most people here who burn 24/7 with no backup have monster fireboxes and often multiple stoves.


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## raybonz (Mar 18, 2011)

VCBurner said:
			
		

> raybonz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure if I'd like top loading as I always have a full porcelain cast iron bowl on the stove but the thermostatic air control sounds pretty good to me.. I wish there was a way to retrofit a stove with a thermostatic air damper as that could save the stove from overfiring.. BTW my stove was made in Taiwan and it's still going strong.. It wasn't my intention to buy a Taiwan stove but it's too much to explain by typing.. I think if you see this stove in person you'd think it was pretty well made.. FYI I find your posts interesting as well Chris!

Ray


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## Ratherbfishin (Mar 18, 2011)

I took a 401K loan, paid off a couple of credit cards and had the stove installed. Plus bought wood. Now I get to pay myself back with interest and not the bank.

Steve


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## Don2222 (Mar 18, 2011)

Hello

When I upgraded my stove, I was trying to sell the old one which luckily I did. However I would have sold it on a payment plan if I really had to. So my idea to you, if you can get a used stove is to offer to pay for it in installments with the money you save by not buying expensive fossil fuel heat! Also you can advertise on craigslist you can pay for it that way so if someone wanted to upgrade then you could help!

For Example:
I sold my FA288CCL Extra Large Cat Consolidated Dutch West Federal Design Wood/Coal stove for $400.
So for $40 dollars per month for 10 months and it is all yours!

Just an idea.


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## snowleopard (Mar 18, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> Keep in mind, however, that is 24/7 burning with no oil for heat.  You'd be trying to replace 500 gallons of oil with 4 cords of wood-that's tight, and serious work for a new wood burner with a new-to-me stove.  Most people here who burn 24/7 with no backup have monster fireboxes and often multiple stoves.



Here's another consideration to put on the table: 
I put in my stove with the thought in mind that I would make the house warmer, add ambiance and have it available as a just-in-case--in case fuel oil went through the roof (again), or I had an extended power failure.  It just seemed prudent.  Four months later, in January, my high-efficiency 12-year-old my boiler failed (with fireworks).  If I'd waited until my finances and wood supply were perfect before I bought that stove, I wouldn't have bought it.  That pretty little parlor stove went from a nice luxury to a central facet of life here, without missing a beat.  I can't tell you how many times I"ve been glad I listened to that quiet little inner prompting that urged me to get this done. 

If you decide not to go with a wood stove, it would be prudent to have enough money on hand at all times to replace your existing heat source, as well as a generator with fuel to keep that heat source running.  And enough money to buy a winter's supply of heating fuel in case one or both of you lose your job(s).  

Or, you could just get a wood stove.


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## joecool85 (Mar 18, 2011)

thinkxingu said:
			
		

> I didn't get through every post here, but most I read said the same thing, "don't go in debt," which is fairly ridiculous to tell college students who've had to make it (seemingly) on their own.  My wife and I are teachers, and we'll be paying school loans probably forever.  But there was no way I was staying in an apartment throwing money out the window or driving older cars that could leave my wife and child stranded.  So, as Brian Blush once sung:
> 
> "I owe, I owe, I know, I know:  Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
> It doesn't matter what I do
> ...



We both paid our own way through college.  Neither of our families had/have the money to help us.


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## joecool85 (Mar 18, 2011)

snowleopard said:
			
		

> btuser said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We have the Irving protection plan that covers us if our boiler goes kaput.  It's been a great investment.  Our boiler is 24 years old now and we pay $250/yr for the protection plan.  Irving has already put in over $2,000 in parts and labor keeping it running (mostly the first year after we bought the house, since then it's been good).

That said, I don't really trust the beast and would love to have a stove.  Looks like one way or another we're gonna make it happen this year.  We're working on selling off our two guitars and my Vox amp.  That should net us a bit over $1,000.  It'll be sad to see them go, but I'm not a gigging musician and it's more important to keep my family warm than entertained.  I will still have a Toyota acoustic that I can bang around on though (not worth selling, couldn't get more than $40 for it).


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## firefighterjake (Mar 18, 2011)

joecool85 said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I've thought about that with the dhw usage.  If the wood stove doesn't help us much we may consider going to an electric hot water heater, but for now I'm not comfortable doing that.  I don't like electric water heaters - not sure why, just don't care for them.



Not a big fan of electric hot water heaters or running the oil boiler in the summer to heat my water . . . for some reason it just seems wrong . . . replaced with a propane hot water heater and I've been quite happy . . . for some reason it just doesn't seem so bad to me. Eventually I may replace the "free" propane heater that was provided with a more efficient on demand heater.

Where in Central Maine are you Joe . . . "Central Maine" in my experience means anywhere from LA to Brunswick to Waterville to Bangor and all points in between.


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## joecool85 (Mar 18, 2011)

firefighterjake said:
			
		

> joecool85 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My wife and I live in Norridgewock.  Between the two of us we've been all over though.  She grew up in Rumford, I grew up in New Sharon and then we both went to UMO.  She lived in Orono and I had an apartment in Old Town, then we were both in Old Town and stayed there for 5 years total before we came down to Norridgewock.


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## firefighterjake (Mar 18, 2011)

joecool85 said:
			
		

> firefighterjake said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Norridgewock . . . yup . . . that's pretty much my definition of central Maine -- in the Waterville/Augusta area . . . but as I said . . . folks all have different ideas of what is central Maine . . . of course some purists might even argue that central Maine would be far, far away from the coast . . . somewhere in Orono or Old Town.

Norridgewock is within throwing distance of Unity . . . well maybe if it was Superman throwing the ball . . . close enough I suppose.


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## firefighterjake (Mar 18, 2011)

My own thoughts . . .

You have two different options.

Option 1: Save and scrimp and put every penny away that you can to buy the exact stove you want. You already mentioned not eating out a lot (that definitely helps) . . . cutting back on other things can also help you save and pay off debt fast. I ended up putting several thousands back into my savings account by going on a 9-12 month economic diet where I cut out eating out as much as I did, ate cheap meals at work, cut back on buying sodas/coffees (well I don't drink coffee -- but you get the idea), didn't go on a vacation and even cut out some extras in life such as the internet. In addition I had a few side jobs (I teach CPR and First Aid on the side) -- I even picked up some scrap metal for a little extra cash -- and I plowed any extra money back into the savings. I was actually pretty surprised at how fast I was able to build up the savings.

I believe you could do this if you wanted . . . and then buy the exact stove you want . . . there will just be that delayed gratification.


Option 2: Get a "starter" stove. When I got out of college I lived in a small cabin (which my wife and I dubbed "The Love Shack") and I started out with an older Ashley that was given to me . . . eventually I upgraded to a Shenandoah that was given to me by some friends. That old Shenandoah by the way I in turn gave to some friends who needed a starter stove . . . in my own case, I eventually moved and put a new woodstove into my house many years later . . . after a period of time without any woodstove . . . and my friends that inherited the Shenandoah eventually upgraded as well . . . which was good since by then the old woodstove was in pretty tough shape.

This option means you may not get the exact stove you want . . . but you can get a stove that will do the job (i.e. heat your home cheaply . . . or at least cheaper than heating oil) for a year or so. You may opt to go with an inexpensive new option like the Englander or you may get a used stove . . . either bought used or even donated from a friend, family member or co-worker. Look around on Uncle Henrys and Craigslist . . . and don't be afraid to mention to folks that you're looking for a used stove. No one says you have to take the first stove you're offered or that you look at -- especially if it is in poor condition or is too small or large for your needs. But by getting a cheap starter stove you get the advantage of cheaper heat and can start saving towards the stove you really want . . . or you and your wife may fall in love with the homely stove. You may need to modify things a bit to make the stove fit and it may not be quite as nice or quite the right size, but if it heats your home . . . well that's what truly matters . . . wall heat shields can be changed out and hearths can be built to be temporary.

Speaking of hearths . . . if I went with Option 2 I would build my own hearth. This would save you some money . . . and if you're smart you could build the hearth to the size and specs required for your dream stove . . . of course make sure the hearth also meets the manufacturer specs for the starter stove as well.

A few random thoughts . . .

Stove pipe . . . well unless you go with something like the BlazeKing or other stove, you will have a 6 inch stove pipe and chimney . . . so I would suggest buying this new . . . and using it for your dream stove or keeping it for the dream stove after using it for a few years with the starter stove. You can save money here by installing yourself.

Wood . . . as others have said . . . get it now . . . or before . . . and it sounds like you have . . . but be even smarter and make sure you have more than you think you will need. There are few things worse than having good wood and heating all winter long and saving money . . . only to run out of primo wood in middle of February when you need heat for a few more weeks . . . you will cringe every time you have to rely on the boiler for the heat after saving all that money all winter long.

Insulation . . . sounds like you've done well here . . . but take a good hard look to be sure there are no other places you can further insulate and tighten up the house . . . for the dollar . . . insulation saves you a lot of money in both the short and long run . . . I work hard to get my firewood and hate to think that I am losing heat due to a lack of cheap insulation.

Size the stove . . . if you've read stuff here you might see that many of us recommend you size the stove to your home's square footage . . . and then go one size up from what the manufacturer suggests. There are far, far more people here who get a stove and then complain about it being too small and not putting out enough heat then there are people who say the stove was too big and was driving them out of the home due to the heat.

Good luck.


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## VCBurner (Mar 18, 2011)

raybonz said:
			
		

> Not sure if I'd like top loading as I always have a full porcelain cast iron bowl on the stove but the thermostatic air control sounds pretty good to me.. I wish there was a way to retrofit a stove with a thermostatic air damper as that could save the stove from overfiring.. BTW my stove was made in Taiwan and it's still going strong.. It wasn't my intention to buy a Taiwan stove but it's too much to explain by typing.. I think if you see this stove in person you'd think it was pretty well made.. FYI I find your posts interesting as well Chris!
> 
> Ray



The old Surdiac was a top and front loader and had a thermostatically controlled air supply.  I seldom used the front door and miss being able to set the temp and walk away!  Never any ashes spilling out with the top loader and it was very nice not to have to kneel down to load the stove.  Though it really isn't bad with the DW, as we only have to do it about 3 times a day in the dead of winter.  As far as the Taiwan products, I don't think there's anything wrong with buying them.  Sometimes it can't be avoided, but it is a shame to see the work taken away from here.  It doesn't necessarily mean that the products are of a lesser quality like some people may think.  In the case of the old DW's they were obviously well built, as you can prove by having one for over 20 years.  I sure am glad they came back to the US when VC purchased the line, though.  Mine was made right here in Vermont.


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## snowleopard (Mar 19, 2011)

okay, page 5, it's time for a threadjack! 

Top loaders, a question for you--have any of you ever tried burning vertical loads?


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## begreen (Mar 19, 2011)

Back on track to the thread jack. Our first new stove (since an Ashely tin can stove) was purchased a year after we got out of college. We were dirt poor, but this was during the 1st Arab oil crisis and we were renting an uninsulated house. We both had jobs at that point and decided to bite the bullet and not on a cheap stove. We got a new VC Resolute. It cost almost $500 and we paid cash. This was big money for us, but we decided to do with less rather than be cold. The stove (top loader) was great and saved us when we experienced a very serious coldsnap in the low teens and single digits (unheard of in Seattle). Our car was a 14 yr old Volvo wagon, but reliable. No meals out, we always cooked at home and kept things very basic, but we were happy and warm.


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## btuser (Mar 19, 2011)

Stop selling your toys.  How are you gonna get another chick if this one doesn't work out?   


Granted, there's some sweet luvin' to be had down by the fire but make sure you keep your options open!


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## joecool85 (Mar 21, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> Stop selling your toys.  How are you gonna get another chick if this one doesn't work out?
> 
> 
> Granted, there's some sweet luvin' to be had down by the fire but make sure you keep your options open!



lol, thanks for the concern but I think we're good to go there.  Also, I plan on not only getting a better guitar later when we can afford it, but also a motorcycle.  How many chick magnets do I really need?  I've not ever really had a problem with the ladies anyway.


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## joecool85 (Apr 4, 2011)

So far we are saving big money.

We got an Amesti N380 for $399 (17VL would have been $550 and a Morso 1440 would have been $1,200).

Then yesterday I was at Home Depot and noticed they had the Simpson Duravent 6" Insulated Chimney 36" pieces marked down from $82 to $43 but it was all gone.  I asked a guy and they are having 5 pieces transferred - still at the clearance price!  I had planned on paying $100 a section as that's what it was elsewhere earlier in the season.  Big savings there.


Now for a few questions.  Can you use Duravent pipe with a Selkirk cap?  I like the Selkirk cap a lot better.  What about other parts?  Do you have to use all of one brand or are all 6" insulated pipe pretty well the same?


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