# Heat exchanger tubes keep falling down.



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

The heat exchanger tubes in my Quadra-Fire pellet stove insert keep falling down in the middle of burning, otherwise it is great! Does anyone else have this problem and how do you keep them up? I am new to pellet stoves. This one came with the house when we bought it.
Thanks in advance!


----------



## DAKSY (Jan 8, 2015)

There are 4 or 5 different Quad pellet inserts. Which one do you have?


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

Quadra Fire CB 1200i


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

WHAT?????????  I sure hope you have carbon monoxide detectors in your house  Or I hope you are joking!!

How are they falling down?  Don't you have a steel plate covering them?  Pictures are in order.  

Lastly, shut that thing down now!


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

Manual - page 39 baffle removal
http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/7014_188.pdf

Maintenance video should walk you through removal and reinstall of baffles
http://www.quadrafire.com/Owner-Resources/Use-and-Care-Videos/Classic-Bay-1200-Pellet-Stove.aspx


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

I do. I shut it down everytime and let it cool off, the I take the plate off of it and push the tubes back up onto their holes....they feel nice and snug. It could be a day or two before they fall again, or an hour. The exhaust fan is working just fine.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

It looks like the previous owners shoved screws beyween yhem to keep them up....


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)




----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

We ARE talking about the 8 tubes I see in the photo that are coming through the plates and the hot air blows out of them, right?


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

Hooks that are supposed to hold them up gone?

When they fall down, is it from the top near the stove front or the bottom towards the back of the stove?


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

This is from the pellet stove downstairs, the one upstairs is the one with the problems...mind you it is an insert for our fire place


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

Yes the air blows out of them. I will have to search for the hooks. I didn't see any.


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> Hooks that are supposed to hold them up gone?
> 
> When they fall down, is it from the top near the stove front or the bottom towards the back of the stove?


Yea, LG, I was also hoping she's talking about the baffles and not the tubes but she  means the tubes, evidently.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

They fall down from the top.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)




----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 8, 2015)

With that stove off, cold, and unplugged open the door and take some pictures of the entire insides of the fire box.

Do not run that stove again for any reason.  Until you have a NFI certified service person go over it.  

That is not a normal user serviceable condition.

Trying to put the stuff back in Pandora's box isn't something to be done with anyone's help online.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)




----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

It is really hard to get a photo but this is of them out of their hole. I can get them back in, but they don't stay...


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

Ok I was hoping it was user error and I was missing something, like hooks to hold them up...


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

I will take photos after I vacuum it out and take the plates back off...


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

Looks like we're all sleeping in the basement tonight so we can keep cozy! With 4 boys a dog and 2 adults, it will be a full house! I will keep you posted!


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

mommyelizabeth4 said:


> I do. I shut it down everytime and let it cool off, the I take the plate off of it and push the tubes back up onto their holes....they feel nice and snug. It could be a day or two before they fall again, or an hour. The exhaust fan is working just fine.



How about a picture of this so we can see what is going on !

Also, the lid to the stove lifts up, there are two rods that allow you to clean the tubes when they are pulled.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)




----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

It should be like the one on the left...the right 2 have fallen down...more photos to follow.


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

mommyelizabeth4 said:


> It looks like the previous owners shoved screws beyween yhem to keep them up....



Again, a picture would be ideal to see what is going on here.


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

OK, see the picture of the tube(s) --- Hmmm !   That's not good ! 

I could not see anything in the manual about these tubes being removable.

I'd like to see what other users of this stove model have to say.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

Me either. I looked through the manual a few times, front to back...


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

Looks like you're way behind the curve, CladMaster.  

Holy Crap, that is NOT GOOD.  Like Smokey said, DON'T EVER RUN THAT THING AGAIN.  Try to get in touch with Quadrafire/Hearth and Home and let them know what's happened.  I don't know if it can be fixed or not.  Those tubes are probably swaged in there.  I don't see weld and doubt it would be there since the tubes, I believe, are aluminum and the plate is probably steel.

I suspect you're going to be in the market for a new stove.  I hope not, but ......  You're in Berlin, Pa.


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

Do not run this stove until this issue has been fixed / looked into in depth.

A call to the Manufacture today would be on my to do list to ask questions and show them these picture via email to see what they say etc.


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

Smokey is right ... get a qualified tech in there and don't use the stove!  Make sure they look over the second one while he's there.

In the mean time, I hope you have smoke and CO detectors liberally positioned around the house.  CO is not detectable otherwise and it is a killer... keep those boys and yourselves safe!


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

The inside.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

The pipes that keep falling...


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> Looks like you're way behind the curve, CladMaster.



That allows me to watch those in front crash and burn as they take the curve at the wrong speed.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

These are the screws i was talking about...


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

Like someone drilled through the plate and the other shoved in there to keep it up...


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

OMG!  I've never heard of anything like that happening!  Yes, call Quadrafire NOW

If you pull those cleaning rods when the stove is running, things can be very tight.  If you pull hard enough often enough, I imagine you could loosen the tubes.  The manual warns you NOT to do that.  The manufacturer may ask you if you ever do that.

If you can't get the stove repaired (my guess), PLEASE since you're in PA, look into a coal stoker!  I know I'll get blasted as usual, but you'll get twice the heat for the same amount of money as pellets.

www.leisurelinestoves.com
www.keystoker.com
http://www.readingstove.com/


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 8, 2015)

That stove needs major work and not by any run of the mill off the street person.  

The heat exchanger has fallen apart.  

I'm sure that some folks one here could actually fix it but there is nothing we can do except tell you do not run it and to talk to a qualified Quad tech about possible options.


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

Do not use that stove until it's been fixed / welded up tighter than my wallet.


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

I couldn't find anything about it online either...usually when I search for problems, there is at least one forum about it, but not this....until now...


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

CladMaster said:


> Do not use that stove until it's been fixed / welded up tighter than my wallet.


I don't think it can be welded, as I said.


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

New over sized aluminum tubes could be put in it, but to do it you would need to get the stove to a competent / trust worthy metal workshop / blacksmith for them to do the work and go over it to check for leaks and seal those screw holes with weld.

There has to be some place that can fix it at a price.


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

CladMaster said:


> New over sized aluminum tubes could be put in it, but to do it you would need to get the stove to a competent / trust worthy metal workshop / blacksmith for them to do the work and go over it to check for leaks and seal those screw holes with weld.
> 
> There has to be some place that can fix it at a price.


Don't forget that the 'fixer' will also be assuming the liability.  I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.


----------



## CladMaster (Jan 8, 2015)

That leaves the OP with two options then....

1/ Replacement stove from manufacture if possible.

2/ A new or used stove that is in good working order and this one sent to the scrap yard for spare parts.


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

Maybe the manufacturer has a tool similar to an exhaust pipe expander that slips inside the tube and expands it outward to make a tight fit.  It doesn't address the bottom holes that the pipe goes through though.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Jan 8, 2015)

I'm pretty sure those are common seamed steel tubes interference swaged into the front bulkhead (I have no idea how they secure at the rear.  My opinion is quit using it and replace it.  It's junk and really not fixable.  Being in the metal fabrication business, I'm not at all impressed with the design.  Poor execution.

Being in Pennsyltucky, I'd be looking at a coal stoker too.  Lots better heat output on anthricite coal. anyday.


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> I'm pretty sure those are common seamed steel tubes interference swaged into the front bulkhead (I have no idea how they secure at the rear.  My opinion is quit using it and replace it.  It's junk and really not fixable.  Being in the metal fabrication business, I'm not at all impressed with the design.  Poor execution.
> 
> Being in Pennsyltucky, I'd be looking at a coal stoker too.  Lots better heat output on anthricite coal. anyday.


I was waiting for your much more expert opinion on this one, ScF.  From looking at my stoves, it looked like they were swaged in place.  Someone a while back posted that the tubes were aluminum and a magnet doesn't stick to them.  Could be stainless but they are soft enough to scratch with an awl.  
I agree the design is caveman-style at best.  I had a similar design of round tubes in my wood fireplace 50 years ago.  With all of the extruded aluminum tubing shapes available today, there's no excuse for not using something with more surface area IMHO.  Scraping them can be accomplished with similarly shaped scrapers laser cut.  

Thanks for the backup on the stoker, by the way.  It means a lot to have someone with actual knowledge alongside me.


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

mommyelizabeth4 has no history on the stove as it came with the house ... But she does state they have two (one insert, one freestanding).  I would get a tech in there to check over the second stove, find a replacement for the insert with the exchange tube issues but keep the consumables (blowers, board, ignitor, etc) for the second stove.

Haul that insert carcass out of there... it's not safe and not worth jeopardizing your family.

tj, you're talking all the fun out of the ribbin'


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> mommyelizabeth4 has no history on the stove as it came with the house ... But she does state they have two (one insert, one freestanding).  I would get a tech in there to check over the second stove, find a replacement for the insert with the exchange tube issues but keep the consumables (blowers, board, ignitor, etc) for the second stove.
> 
> Haul that insert carcass out of there... it's not safe and not worth jeopardizing your family.
> 
> tj, you're talking all the fun out of the ribbin'



You can rib me all you want, Lake Girl.  Lovin' it!

I agree 100% with what you said about stripping that insert for spares and selling it to the scrap yard.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 8, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> You can rib me all you want, Lake Girl.  Lovin' it!
> 
> I agree 100% with what you said about stripping that insert for spares and selling it to the scrap yard.




I think Quad sells heat exchangers for that unit, don't write the OPs options off so fast.


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

It is time for a professional Quad service tech to take care of this. It takes a special tool to press those back into place. If, that is all that is wrong. kap


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> It is time for a professional Quad service tech to take care of this. It takes a special tool to press those back into place. If, that is all that is wrong. kap



I was wondering when you were going to show up.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Jan 8, 2015)

They could be aluminum tubes in an aluminum bulkhead (if indeed they are that soft and scratchable).  My issue with that is simply the high thermal coefficient of expansion and conctraction of aluminum and/or aluminum tubing in an aluminum bulkhead.  if the tubes were mechanically swaged to the bulkhead (it appears that is how they are attached from the picture), thermal expansion and contraction cycles would loosen them over time, no matter what you did to insure that they wouldn''t loosen (the exception would be fusion welding (TIG or Pulsed MIG)

Theoritically, you could TIG the tubes in the end plates (but that ain't a cheap date). and something I could do in the shop but that still leaves the other end (hidden behind the lower plate) and whats occuring there.....  The tubes are physically moving that means something has been compromised...at both ends.

Best scenario is scrap it but remove all the useable components and contact the OEM for a possible refund/replacement.  I don't like the looks of it at all...  ribbing aside.

My opinion as a shop owner and custom fabricatir is, it's a poor design.  Lets let Kap chime in...


----------



## SidecarFlip (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> It is time for a professional Quad service tech to take care of this. It takes a special tool to press those back into place. If, that is all that is wrong. kap


 
I imagine it does.  My issue would be, would I trust the repair?  I'm not so sure I would.


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

As I said, depending on what is wrong. If it is just a matter of pressed tubes, I would trust it. kap


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> I imagine it does.  My issue would be, would I trust the repair?  I'm not so sure I would.



Sidecar ... check kap's signature line.  I would suspect he knows what he is talking about "Quadra Fire service tech"


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

Let's calm down a little folks. It's not that big a deal.  Apples and oranges. lol


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> As I said, depending on what is wrong. If it is just a matter of pressed tubes, I would trust it. kap


Do you expand the tube out against the plate, Kap?


----------



## SidecarFlip (Jan 8, 2015)

No problem in as much as well all go way back to IBC........

I still don't like the way the HX tubes are secured in the front bulkhead and how they are secured in the rear is only conjecture on my part.  I kind of wonder what the 2 sheet metal screws that are screwed through the lower plate and (apparently) through the tubes are securing....  Interference fit is one thing, thermal expansion and contraction cycles are another animal...  not something I'd do (swaged fit).  Works with ammunition but even with ammunition, you crimp the edge into a cannelure to keep the bullet from physically moving in the brass.

Obviously Quadrafire realizes it's an issue if they equip their technicians with the tools to correct the issue.  Next on the agenda would be a local to the OP' Quadrafire technician.


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

tjnamtiw said:


> Do you expand the tube out against the plate, Kap?


You just need to put tube back in place and use a dead punch to flare pipe again on front rack, to keep it from falling. You don't want a sharp punch so as to punch a hole in tube. Backside is usually within specs (tight fit) for no sealants. But, I would put an eye down the backside to make sure nothing is rotted. Lots of times people have used these stoves without the baffle in place, and melt or warp the pipes, which causes them to fall out. Aluminum pipes are used as that is one of the best metals for heat transfer. kap


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> No problem in as much as well all go way back to IBC........
> 
> I still don't like the way the HX tubes are secured in the front bulkhead and how they are secured in the rear is only conjecture on my part.  I kind of wonder what the 2 sheet metal screws that are screwed through the lower plate and (apparently) through the tubes are securing....  Interference fit is one thing, thermal expansion and contraction cycles are another animal...  not something I'd do (swaged fit).  Works with ammunition but even with ammunition, you crimp the edge into a cannelure to keep the bullet from physically moving in the brass.
> 
> Obviously Quadrafire realizes it's an issue if they equip their technicians with the tools to correct the issue.  Next on the agenda would be a local to the OP' Quadrafire technician.


 I remember you from ibc sidecarFlip. Been a while. Still cruising and bruising?


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> ... Aluminum pipes are used as that is one of the best metals for heat transfer. kap



Copper the best for heat transfer, aluminum next, steel last ... results from one of my boy's science fair projects many moons ago.

Good to know there is a fix...


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> You just need to put tube back in place and use a dead punch to flare pipe again on front rack, to keep it from falling. You don't want a sharp punch so as to punch a hole in tube. Backside is usually within specs (tight fit) for no sealants. But, I would put an eye down the backside to make sure nothing is rotted. Lots of times people have used these stoves without the baffle in place, and melt or warp the pipes, which causes them to fall out. Aluminum pipes are used as that is one of the best metals for heat transfer. kap


So all you need is a dead punch and a BFH  cool!  But, like you said, who knows what else the previous owner has done to it besides the presidential modifications.


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 8, 2015)

Presidential modifications aside, I passed mine on to the cable company last January.

kap what do you give for odds that the other end is a mess given the build up on those tubes that we can see?


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

I am more concerned with the "Presidential  modifications", and what might have been done down there.  The build up may have saved things, all things considered.  Bottom line is it needs to be professionally looked at to see if it can be repaired within reason, or strip it and  replace it. kap


----------



## mommyelizabeth4 (Jan 8, 2015)

I called QuadraFire and they said that it was a limited lifetime warrenty. Which translates into 10 year warrenty on the heat exchange parts. It was put in this house in 1999. So she refered me to a local shop.


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

Hope things go well for you. Please let us know how it turns out. It will help others down the road. kap


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

Glad you have a local shop


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 8, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> Copper the best for heat transfer, aluminum next, steel last ... results from one of my boy's science fair projects many moons ago.
> 
> Good to know there is a fix...



You left out silver which was melted down for its heat transfer properties during the Manhattan Project IIRC.


----------



## Lake Girl (Jan 8, 2015)

SmokeyTheBear said:


> You left out silver which was melted down for its heat transfer properties during the Manhattan Project IIRC.



Wasn't going to let him near any of the silver!

Little known fact on the Manhattan Project, disposed rock sent to Tonawanda, NY but not a "health hazard"
http://www.factsofwny.com/overview.htm


----------



## SidecarFlip (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> I remember you from ibc sidecarFlip. Been a while. Still cruising and bruising?


 
Getting to old to scrap. But I sure miss Stingtheives.  I just go with the flow now.  One question that puzzles me and thats, how do you locate the heat exchanger tubes and keep them from moving when you flare the  ends to secure them?.... and, how do you insure the backend is an air tight / gas tight fit when the fromt is flared?  Seems to me to be an exercise in guesstimation.........

Still burning an ugly black box and loving it...  glancing across my shoulder, looks like a rocket ship across the room.....


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

Lake Girl said:


> Wasn't going to let him near any of the silver!
> 
> Little known fact on the Manhattan Project, disposed rock sent to Tonawanda, NY but not a "health hazard"
> http://www.factsofwny.com/overview.htm


I have a buddy from Tonawanda.  That explains a lot!!


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

SidecarFlip said:


> Getting to old to scrap. But I sure miss Stingtheives.  I just go with the flow now.  One question that puzzles me and thats, how do you locate the heat exchanger tubes and keep them from moving when you flare the  ends to secure them?.... and, how do you insure the backend is an air tight / gas tight fit when the fromt is flared?  Seems to me to be an exercise in guesstimation.........
> 
> Still burning an ugly black box and loving it...  glancing across my shoulder, looks like a rocket ship across the room.....


You clamp or wedge them in place, and then flare.  The back end is a zero tolerance fit. Or should be. Balmy 75 in my house. Running around barefoot!


----------



## tjnamtiw (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> You clamp or wedge them in place, and then flare.  The back end is a zero tolerance fit. Or should be. Balmy 75 in my house. Running around barefoot!


With them loose and flopping around in there, my money's on them spreading that bottom hole out.  It's still under negative pressure though so air should come in.  I am amazed that the stove ran when those tubes were down because of the vacuum lose at the burn pot.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Jan 8, 2015)

kappel15 said:


> You clamp or wedge them in place, and then flare.  The back end is a zero tolerance fit. Or should be. Balmy 75 in my house. Running around barefoot!


 
It's 70 in here.  Thats warm enough.  I prefer 70 with a bit of moisture in the air.

Still, an interesting design.  I'm not sold on the externally (mechanically) secured HX tubes myself.  Seems to me to be an exercise in planned obsolence but then my black box don't have any (at least not in that location).  I'll stick with the welded in style thank you.


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

To each his own. The new echochoice stoves have no tubes. And what is interesting is most cases I know of that the tubes slipped, are on cb1200's.


----------



## SidecarFlip (Jan 8, 2015)

Exactly.  If a Ford was the best car in the world, there wouldn't be an y other brand and everyone would drive a Ford.  I drive a Chevy.


----------



## kappel15 (Jan 8, 2015)

And I drive a Ford. Imagine that. LOL


----------

