# Breckwell P24i - Burn Pot - Pellets burning too fast



## bchapaz (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello All!

I recent installed a used Breckwell P24i, that has a differnt burn pot.  The "air flow" holes on the back of the burn pot are in the proper place but the area for pellets is the entire pot, unlike all the pictures I see online (sperate steel burn pot insert).  The fires I'm getting are not hot enough due to the pellets burning out too fast.   Even if the damper is closed, the pellets burn out so I can't get a lot of heat out of the unit.  The timings on the auger motor are according to spec and pellets are dropping.  Could it really be that by having a burn pot being to large is the source of my propblem?


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 3, 2011)

Is the damper control linkage actually connected to the damper?

Can you post a picture of the burn pot setup?


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## bchapaz (Oct 3, 2011)

The linkage is setup (rod on left side of insert).  I'll get a pic up ASAP.

Thanks!


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## bchapaz (Oct 3, 2011)

Here is a pic of the current burn pot.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 3, 2011)

Would you please send a PM to kinsman stoves and ask Eric if he'd please take a look at your thread, be certain to include a link to the thread.

If the other burn pot causes less air to be available to the actual burning pellets (a designed air bypass) then it could be that there is too much air for the burn pot.  I'd expect that to normally result in the fire going out because of the air flow causing the pellets to prematurely exit the burn pot.

I haven't got any pictures to go by at the moment.  I guess that means it is time for me to place my manuals back on the computer.  I did a bit of house cleaning this summer.


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## bchapaz (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks Smokey.  Here is the "real" burn pot.  I will PM Eric with the URL.


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## jtakeman (Oct 3, 2011)

I seem to remember the P24 having leaks. When you clean the stove look for empty bolt holes on the bottom. These will allow air to enter the stove and make the damper less effective. Plug them to see if it helps. I used hi heat tape, But there are many ways to plug them up.

Edit:
You have the original burnpot that came with the older stoves. As long as its not cracked they work just fine.


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## kinsmanstoves (Oct 3, 2011)

The two burnpot pics do not match. Could this be a homemade burnpot? I would also check for air leaks around the door. I have seen the door frame warp on a lot of Breckwell units. hold a metal straight edge to different areas around the door. if the metal is warped you have an issue.

Eric


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## bchapaz (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks for the reply.  I'll pull the thing out (AGAIN) and look.  I didn't notice any holes previoiusly, but I wasn't really looking either.  Maybe the upper auger assembly has something jammed that causing not enough pellets to feed?

Once again everyone, thanks for you help.  I'll post an update when I get my head outta the fireplace!!


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## bchapaz (Oct 3, 2011)

Eric,

I just checked (albeit briefly) and the door frame is straight.  One thing I noticed is the rope gasket around the door doesn't have a lot give (not flexible) so I might try and replace that.  If that causes enought air leakage, that could be the issue.

Again, thanks everyone!!


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## smilejamaica (Oct 3, 2011)

bchapaz said:
			
		

> Here is a pic of the current burn pot.


your burn pot looks funny .like eric says it does looks homemade


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## mroletta (Oct 3, 2011)

I have an older Breckwell P24I and the burn pot looks like the picture he posted.  

Stove runs great and I get a beautiful flame though.  I'll post photos when I get home (~4 hours).


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## jtakeman (Oct 3, 2011)

MrOletta said:
			
		

> I have an older Breckwell P24I and the burn pot looks like the picture he posted.
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> Stove runs great and I get a beautiful flame though.  I'll post photos when I get home (~4 hours).



I was hoping an older breckwell owner chimed in! Just so the others didn't think I was nuts! Please post the pictures for proof and Thanks!


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## smilejamaica (Oct 3, 2011)

j-takeman said:
			
		

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hey its gonna take alot more than a picture to make me think your not nuts. .......lol


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## DexterDay (Oct 3, 2011)

You say they are burning to fast, but maybe they burnt to slow with your old burn pot? 

What color was your ash before? The ash pictured in that stovr is a "good burn" in my opinion. If it were to much air and to little fuel, it would be whiter. A slower (low air) burn is a darker color ash, almost brown or black.. Hard to judge it all based on color, but this is a combustion process.  And just like a car, these stoves need a proper air/fuel ratio... That color is about what it looks like.. Some of this depends on fuel quality also.

By quick, do you mean the Fire extinguish's itself?


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## bchapaz (Oct 3, 2011)

The pellet amount cannot support the fire, even with the damper closed.  On high, the flame is maintained for a little while but the damper is closed all the way and it will eventually burn itself out without a manual feed.  On any of the lower settings it burns out by burning at a rate too fast for the auger rate to keep up.  Called Breckwell and my 4 RPM feed timing is good (14 second cycle).

I checked for holes and the door frame looks good. Waiting for the door gasket cement to dry as I changed that incase there is too much air. 

Thanks!


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## jtakeman (Oct 3, 2011)

I see you checked the timing, But did you check the actual movement of the motor? You should see about 1 output shaft revolution at 14 seconds under actual load. These auger motors stahled easily and could be some if not all of the issue.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 3, 2011)

In addition to possible stalls it is also possible that you have a loose coupling connecting the auger motor to auger.  There is another feed issue but it is rare, this is where the auger is tunneling through the pellets and not actually moving many of them.


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

I had the auger motor out to check it and it's well connected to the shaft.  Secondly what's (and how would you solve) if the auger is chewing the pellets and not just moving them? I don't see that happening but I will keep my eye out.


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## mroletta (Oct 4, 2011)

Here are photos of the burn pot from my (I think) '95 breckwell insert.  It's not in the greatest condition, but it works well.  On medium settings I'll get a nice strong 5" flame, and on high settings I'll have a 8"+ strong flame. 

Are you sure it's dying from _too much_ air?  How long have you had the stove?  How has the cleaning gone in the air path channels?

I ask because this past season was the first time I had the stove, and an issue I had was a dying combustion blower, but also I missed some key parts in cleaning that inhibited airflow.

Though I guess mine would just overfill the burn pot because it wouldn't burn hot enough hmm.


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't think there are enough pellets getting into the burn pot.  I'm attaching a picture of the "C" setting after 10 minutes of starting.  Not much.  Again, the auger motor is turing according to feed rates provided for the 4 RPM motor and my control board.  I did notice that on more that one cycle, very few pellets (or just pieces) fell into the burn pot.  I did replace the door gasket, hoping that would be it but...

So it seems the motor is turning (auger turning with it), but there are not enough pellets going in.  Any ideas?  

Thanks!


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## mroletta (Oct 4, 2011)

10 minutes after mine starting up on C (the setting I normally use), I don't have many pellets on their either.

I wish there was someway I could measure the amount of pellets that come out per turn on the C setting hmmm.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 4, 2011)

Empty the hopper, remove the auger flight cover and see what is in the flight also check for a pellet bridge (pellets sideways in the auger flight, frequently near the top of the flight), or a fines block at the bottom of the hopper (fines can sit there the auger has no trouble turning but pellets have trouble getting into the flight).


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

Smokey.. Already emptied the hopper and cleared everything out with a shop vac (while running the auger manually from the control panel).  With the insert, I'm wonder if there is something at the top of the assembly (covered) that is inhibiting pellets form going all the way?  If I clear pellets from the auger, the auger seems "full" of pellets wanting to go up.  You had mentioned the rare case of pellets not getting into the auger, how would that be fixed?  Secondly, about how many pellets should be fed during the cycle?  I know it's not consistent, but I'm seeing anywhwere from 2 to 7 drop down.  The amount is extremely inconsistent.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 4, 2011)

bchapaz said:
			
		

> Smokey.. Already emptied the hopper and cleared everything out with a shop vac (while running the auger manually from the control panel).  With the insert, I'm wonder if there is something at the top of the assembly (covered) that is inhibiting pellets form going all the way?  If I clear pellets from the auger, the auger seems "full" of pellets wanting to go up.  You had mentioned the rare case of pellets not getting into the auger, how would that be fixed?  Secondly, about how many pellets should be fed during the cycle?  I know it's not consistent, but I'm seeing anywhwere from 2 to 7 drop down.  The amount is extremely inconsistent.



The flight cover over the auger should be removable or the auger can be removed at the back end of the flight, this exposes the entire length of the auger flight and allows you to remove anything that is sitting in the flight, if a pellet is jammed across the flight you should be able to pull it out, the same is true for anything at the top of the flight on its way to the drop tube, it is also possible for a pellet to wedge across the drop tube if thats the case a bent coat hanger can be used to snag it by going up the drop tube.  The fines blocks (one cause of an tunneling auger) can also be cleaned out with the flight cover removed.  The other cause of a tunneling auger is if the auger is to far above the floor of the auger flight (out of alignment) the fitting near the drop tube being loose can cause this as can the auger being too high above the flight floor at the bottom of the flight.


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## mroletta (Oct 4, 2011)

Bchapaz, the amount of pellets that fall into mine is also very inconsistent.  Sometimes the auger turns and I get 0 pellets fall in, and the next time a good bundle come out.  Sometimes it's just 2-3, and other times it's 7-10.  

I just started mine up right now, and I'll snap some photos of the amount of pellets in the pot after a few minutes.  I want to let it burn for a while to get rid of the excess pellets that were used manually feeding to get it going. 

If it's useful to you, I can take video of the firepot (100-120s worth) and upload it to youtube so you can see the auger/pellet amount that drops?


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

That would be great (Pics and video).  Different thoughts running through my mind:

1. Upper auger bushing?  - Just heard a slight squeek.  - purchase new one or can I just "lube" the existing one
2. Pellet shoot - something preventing pellets from dropping.

I've had the thing on MAX for an hour and the heat being put out is only about 90 degrees.. That is definately not normal!


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## DexterDay (Oct 4, 2011)

The damper having no effect still has me scratching my head? There should be a dramatic change from full open to full close. I agree it could be something at the top pf the flight.. My buddy had a corner of a bag get caught up there. His stove would run, but the same on every setting.

Hope you get it figured. As most stoves dont have a too much air problem. Most are not enough air (if there is a problem)...


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

I think the too much air issue is solved with the new gasket.  The damper has an effect on the burn rate.  Just can't get enough pellets in there now to keep a realtively consistent burn or get the thing hot (over 85-90 degree air from the tubes).


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## mroletta (Oct 4, 2011)

I recorded and am uploading the video now.  First time uploading to youtube and I'm not sure how long their post processing takes. 

Bchapaz, you said it was recently installed and that you bought it new, correct?  Did you clear out any ash that you might have behind the 4 panels in the firewall/behind the burn pot?  

What got me when I first cleaned it (first time having a pellet stove), was that I was cleaning out the areas behind the tall vertical doors on the left and right with a long screwdriver and thought I had got it all, but I ordered a 24" flexible rod with a brush head at the end, and had an epiphany when I saw the top of the brush break through a thick layer of ash that had accumulated at the top of that channel.  I.E.  the brush head popped out to about the same level as where the heat exchange tubes are.  That needs to be clear as it's the path the air takes.

I know (and agree) that you think it's pellets not feeding sufficiently, but it was something that definitely bit me so thought I'd pass it along.  Again, I was/am a pellet stove noob so I feel it was a defining moment, ha ha.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 4, 2011)

Check your ash pan door gasket if there is one.


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## mroletta (Oct 4, 2011)

Video successfully uploaded - hope it helps!  I swear it doesn't sound like an aircraft in real life.


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

I purchased the stove used.  There really isn't a lot of wear and tear on the thing.  I will try the flexible brush idea.  I cleaned behind the doors (only 3 on my insert) but didn't scub anything behind there.  There really wasn't anything to vacuum.  

I just dislike pulling the insert out of the fireplace and disconnecting the pipe, etc. and having someone help me remove it from the raised hearth as I can't work on it when it's up there.  AHHHHHH.

Thanks everyone!


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## mroletta (Oct 4, 2011)

I only mention the flexible brush because I could physically see it popping out of the top by the heat exchanger tubes.  My problem was that path was being inhibited, which is the path that the air takes through the burn pot, up to the tube area, then down the sides behind those long vertical doors and to the combustion blower/vent.

How does my feed rate compare to yours?


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

MrOletta said:
			
		

> Video successfully uploaded - hope it helps!  I swear it doesn't sound like an aircraft in real life.




I'm not even close to that!!  When you showed the burn pot, I don't even have that many "coals" in there.  I think this is starting to look like a feed problem.  No enought are dropping over a period of time.. (more 1 or 2's that 7 or 10's).

I can't thank you enough for taking this and putting it up there.  I think this goes a long way to help in getting this figured out!


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## DexterDay (Oct 4, 2011)

bchapaz said:
			
		

> I think the too much air issue is solved with the new gasket.  The damper has an effect on the burn rate.  Just can't get enough pellets in there now to keep a realtively consistent burn or get the thing hot (over 85-90 degree air from the tubes).



You read it wrong... if your gaskets were leaking, that would HELP you now.. By changing them, you INCREASE the amount of air through the burn pot. Which worsens your problem. You need LESS air or MORE fuel. . . Changing the gaskets will only amplify the problem you have.

I hope you get it resolved, but an air leak is what you DONT have.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 4, 2011)

DexterDay said:
			
		

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It is likely he has several issues.


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

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You can say that again I think that there is a combination of issues.  Rip apart time again!!  Really learning alot about this thing.  Good thing I enjoy fixing things!

Thanks all!  Any ideas, post them here.  I'll update on progress.


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## DexterDay (Oct 4, 2011)

bchapaz said:
			
		

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Please dont take me wrong. I would love to help you. But in order to help you, You must understand how your stove works. The Combustion blower,  blows your exhaust out of the house ( keep your vent clean), but it also provides the air for combustion for the pellets. It "Pulls" air through your burnpot, creating a negative pressure in your firebox. So if you had a door/gasket leak, the would prevent the air from coming through the burn pot holes and create the opposite problem you have.
You would have a "PILE UP" of pellets because of lack of air. 

You have too much air. Fixing leaks would give you more air, burning your pellets faster.


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 4, 2011)

Ah yes Dexter, but it also allows the damper to have proper effect on the fire which wasn't available before.

The fuel feed is likely mechanical in nature and a bit of visual inspection should find it once the covers are all off.


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

DexterDay.. I'm not taking it wrong and realizing that everyone here is trying to help!  The airflow issue might be a non-issue.  The reason I say that is due to the video.  I do not have that amout of pellets or "coals" in my burn pot.  I litteraly will have about a quarter size amount of buring pellets (diameter) in that huge burn pot, which I don't think would be enought to sustain any kind of burn.

Hope I didn't give the wrong impression!!  Please keep the ideas coming!  Thanks for checking back and any advice will be appreciated!


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## DexterDay (Oct 4, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

> Ah yes Dexter, but it also allows the damper to have proper effect on the fire which wasn't available before.
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You are right Smokey. I didnt think of the air leak letting more air in, if the damper was shut. Shame on me for not thinking.

My apologies to the OP. Why did you change the burn pot? Old one wore out?


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

That was the burn pot that came with the insert. I noticed it was larger than the ones available online.

I took the insert out, took the auger motor off and checked for anything weird with the pellet "shoot". I didn't see anything but when I put everything back together the auger motor would spin right away. The motor was on but the shaft didn't turn (on the motor, not the auger shaft). It did eventually start but the motor got very hot to the touch.

Thinking a new auger motor is in order. Are they supposed to get that hot?


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## jtakeman (Oct 4, 2011)

I think it might have the wrong auger motor. You stated it has the 4 rpm control, But did you check to see it if has the 4 rpm auger motor? A 4 rpm control with a 1 rpm auger motor would give too few pellets to the fire.


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## bchapaz (Oct 4, 2011)

j-takeman said:
			
		

> I think it might have the wrong auger motor. You stated it has the 4 rpm control, But did you check to see it if has the 4 rpm auger motor? A 4 rpm control with a 1 rpm auger motor would give too few pellets to the fire.



She's a 4 RPM.  The label is still on the motor.  This might be the original motor, which is/was on it's last legs.

Thanks!


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## jtakeman (Oct 4, 2011)

bchapaz said:
			
		

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Sorry, I didn't read your last post. No the motor shouldn't get that hot. Sounds like its binding internally and overlaoding the motor. While you got it out rig it to a lamp cord. I'll bet it doesn't spin 4 rev's per minute either. Once they start to bind they stahl which I mentioned above. 

If the new motor fixes the issue? Please post the results for future readers reference!


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 4, 2011)

j-takeman said:
			
		

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That is likely the mechanical issue, you may still have other issues.

Funny how everything has issues, instead of problems, these days isn't it?


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## jtakeman (Oct 4, 2011)

SmokeyTheBear said:
			
		

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I use the word "issue" for easy fixes and "problem" for the ones that seem impossible. But doesn't "issue" sound better than "problem"????


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## SmokeyTheBear (Oct 4, 2011)

j-takeman said:
			
		

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Actually no, but that's a matter for a different forum and day.


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## bchapaz (Oct 6, 2011)

OK All!  Thanks to everyone that responded with suggestions and help!  Here is what was done and final outcome:

First, I ended up replacing the auger motor.  Even though the feed rate was exactly what Breckwell stated (with the analog board), the motor was running very hot.  Couldn't touch the motor after manual feeding for about 2 minutes (testing) and it was jamming a lot during testing (with the insert out of the fireplace).  

After replacing the motor, pellets were still not dropping consistently into the burn pot.  I think took apart the auger assembly and noticed that the top "blade" of the auger was bent slightly downward at the end.  There were no jams or anything at the top so I figured that maybe the pellets were not getting "high enough" to actually drop into the burn pot.  I bent the top portion back to where it looked straight (not an easy task for a tall skinny guy!!) and reassembled the insert for testing.  During testing, a good amount of pellets were dropping, motor was acting great (no heat) so I got the insert back in the fireplace, hooked up the venting and burned.

Worked like a champ  It wasn't that cold in WNY last night, but cold enough where I left it running for about 3 hours with no issues.  Flame was great.  I was the "C" setting with the damper open around 3/4".  Great heat for being just above a low setting.

Once again, thanks to everyone that assisted, took videos (that really helped!!) and gave suggestions.  Searching through the forums also helped prior to actually posting


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