# 2021/22 VC Owner thread



## webfish (Sep 6, 2021)

Started new thread for the new season.


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## Rusty18 (Sep 6, 2021)

Guess I’ll have to settle for the 2nd post on this thread....
And yes 87 degrees and 98% humidity at 430 in the morning doesn’t make for a good day.


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## Dobish (Sep 12, 2021)

I tried to post on the old thread for last season, since I didn't clean the stove yet from then, so I guess I will settle for posting on this one   My local hardware store is going out of business, so I just bought 60 ft of gasket material for $0.16 a foot...  Maybe I will replace some of the gaskets this year.


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## RandyBoBandy (Sep 20, 2021)

No turning back now!


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## Rusty18 (Sep 20, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> No turning back now!
> 
> View attachment 282131


WHAT DID YOU DO??? 
Good luck, had mine part way apart in the spring. Will be seeing how well I did getting it back together here in a few weeks.


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## RandyBoBandy (Sep 20, 2021)

The refractory box was shot. So, nothing like waiting until the last minute to put a new one in. The upper fireback came out easy enough. I’m guessing it won’t be that easy going back in.


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## begreen (Sep 20, 2021)

How many years did you get out of that refractory box?


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## RandyBoBandy (Sep 21, 2021)

begreen said:


> How many years did you get out of that refractory box?


I’ve put six seasons on it and I believe the guy I bought the stove from had two seasons on his rebuild.  So not too bad I guess for a stove known to be finicky and weak. I think once all the thermos are in place and people learn how to run these stoves they are not to bad. This will be the only time I rebuild it however. Time to start saving for a new stove once this thing burns out again.


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## Diabel (Sep 21, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> The refractory box was shot. So, nothing like waiting until the last minute to put a new one in. The upper fireback came out easy enough. I’m guessing it won’t be that easy going back in.


It will not go back as easily as it came out. If you can get a second set of hands holding it via the griddle top it would help. That way you can align the bolts without worrying of damaging the refractory box. The best way for one person job would be to flip the stove on its back and have the gravity work with you.


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## RandyBoBandy (Sep 21, 2021)

Diabel said:


> It will not go back as easily as it came out. If you can get a second set of hands holding it via the griddle top it would help. That way you can align the bolts without worrying of damaging the refractory box. The best way for one person job would be to flip the stove on its back and have the gravity work with you.


I was afraid of this. I was hoping to not take the stovepipe down and flue collar off. However it’s looking like this is going to happen.  I’ve been trying to figure out how to lift it back in place before putting the new refractory box in.  Not going very smooth yet.


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## RandyBoBandy (Sep 21, 2021)

Here’s a question for everyone who has done this already. Gasket rope the upper or cement?  I see the bolt holes are right in the gasket channel.


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## Diabel (Sep 21, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I was afraid of this. I was hoping to not take the stovepipe down and flue collar off. However it’s looking like this is going to happen.  I’ve been trying to figure out how to lift it back in place before putting the new refractory box in.  Not going very smooth yet.


Disconnecting the pipe is no big deal. You can turn the stove 90* gently so you do not snap one of the legs. Borrow a dolly, set the dolly behind the stove, put some 2x6 blocks underneath the stove so there is no gap. Strap the stove to the dolly, flip backwards. Simple


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## Diabel (Sep 21, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Here’s a question for everyone who has done this already. Gasket rope the upper or cement?  I see the bolt holes are right in the gasket channel.


I remember on the 2550 the groove was only on the bottom side and two short horizontal sides where the bolts go. The upper side was just a flat cast and I put lots of cement there. Not a best design.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Sep 21, 2021)

Hello to all.. Im late to the party.. Looks like the weather is cooling down this last day of summer.. Ill be burning like the 18th or so.. can't wait..like a kid on Christmas


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## bert670 (Sep 21, 2021)

I have a VC Dauntless Flexburn on order and due to be installed around the end of October. It will be going in a new addition that we are in the process of completing.  Wood has already been stacked awaiting its arrival. Growing up with a old Intrepid at my parents house, I'm looking foward to continuing the VC tradition in my home.


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2021)

bert670 said:


> I have a VC Dauntless Flexburn on order and due to be installed around the end of October. It will be going in a new addition that we are in the process of completing.  Wood has already been stacked awaiting its arrival. Growing up with a old Intrepid at my parents house, I'm looking foward to continuing the VC tradition in my home.


Keep us posted on this stove. There's a lot of interest in this one. Will you be running it flex-burn or cat?


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## begreen (Sep 21, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I’ve put six seasons on it and I believe the guy I bought the stove from had two seasons on his rebuild.  So not too bad I guess for a stove known to be finicky and weak. I think once all the thermos are in place and people learn how to run these stoves they are not to bad. This will be the only time I rebuild it however. Time to start saving for a new stove once this thing burns out again.


8-10 yrs seems to be average for a well cared for stove with the newer refractory material.


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## bert670 (Sep 21, 2021)

begreen said:


> Keep us posted on this stove. There's a lot of interest in this one. Will you be running it flex-burn or cat?



My plan is to run it flex-burn, it will be coming with the cat performance package.


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## RandyBoBandy (Sep 21, 2021)

begreen said:


> 8-10 yrs seems to be average for a well cared for stove with the newer refractory material.


I still want to get away from this stove eventually. Over $200 for the refractory box, about $200 for a cat every few years and god forbid any of the internals warp or crack $$$$. Hopefully I get 8-10 years of saving for a new stove.


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## Todd (Sep 21, 2021)

bert670 said:


> I have a VC Dauntless Flexburn on order and due to be installed around the end of October. It will be going in a new addition that we are in the process of completing.  Wood has already been stacked awaiting its arrival. Growing up with a old Intrepid at my parents house, I'm looking foward to continuing the VC tradition in my home.


I almost pulled the trigger on one of those, sure is a good looker. Always wanted to try a top loader, it would be a lot easier on the knees. Keep us posted.


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## NewGuy132 (Sep 29, 2021)

bert670 said:


> I have a VC Dauntless Flexburn on order and due to be installed around the end of October. It will be going in a new addition that we are in the process of completing.  Wood has already been stacked awaiting its arrival. Growing up with a old Intrepid at my parents house, I'm looking foward to continuing the VC tradition in my home.



I wanted a Dauntless but it was too tall to fit in our fireplace where we wanted it.  Unfortunately they do not sell a short leg kit for it either.  I ended up going with the Intrepid Flexburn.  I bought it the end of March and the 1st one they sent the enamel was all cracked to hell.  Been waiting over a month of a replacement.  We were told "end of Sept", well you can't get much closer to the end of Sept than now.


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## Humberwho (Sep 29, 2021)

First fall fire.  Nice little mix of Fir, redwood and oak.


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## begreen (Sep 29, 2021)

Nice looking stove and hearth!


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## PatrickWR (Sep 29, 2021)

I'll be firing up my Dauntless in a few weeks ... probably a little too soon, but I see my neighbor Humberwho is already up and running. 

Right now I'm troubleshooting an issue with water dripping down the inside of my chimney pipe and splattering onto the stove. I took some pics and started a thread: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/water-leaking-around-chimney-box-with-pics.188255/
Would love to hear any insight about chimneys, sealing, etc.


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## gthomas785 (Sep 29, 2021)

It's that time again..


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## NewGuy132 (Sep 30, 2021)

Finally got the install date of next Thursday for my Intrepid Flexburn.  Excited for it.


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## bbryan (Sep 30, 2021)

I have a new Encore 2040 that I have yet to fire up (waiting on the inspection).  The griddle seems to already have a rust spot on it, though. Just wondering if there are any tips on how to keep the griddle from rusting. I've read up on about every other aspect of this stove but can't find any info on this. Thanks in advance.


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## gthomas785 (Sep 30, 2021)

bbryan said:


> I have a new Encore 2040 that I have yet to fire up (waiting on the inspection).  The griddle seems to already have a rust spot on it, though. Just wondering if there are any tips on how to keep the griddle from rusting. I've read up on about every other aspect of this stove but can't find any info on this. Thanks in advance.


Vegetable oil. But beware that it will smoke so use as little as possible and rub it in with a paper towel. At least that's what I do. The griddle will darken after you fire it.


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## Jmorg (Sep 30, 2021)

I’m hoping to have my first “real” fire tomorrow morning in the Dauntless. Finished up my break-in fires last weekend and ready to go…it’s still a little too warm but I can’t wait!


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## Woodsplitter67 (Sep 30, 2021)

Ill have my first fire in like 18 days or so.. im excited.. Looking forward to just sitting by the fire and relaxing..


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## gthomas785 (Sep 30, 2021)

Jmorg said:


> I’m hoping to have my first “real” fire tomorrow morning in the Dauntless. Finished up my break-in fires last weekend and ready to go…it’s still a little too warm but I can’t wait!


It ain't fall unless you've got the windows open with the stove going!


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## Jmorg (Oct 1, 2021)

Question for those of you who are installers or familiar with this…I started a roaring top down fire this morning and noticed a reflection of fire on my stovepipe. The damper was open of course and it is setup for rear exit with a tee. Is this ok or should I be concerned? No flames coming out but you can definitely see the fire around the crimped edge of the pipe. I appreciate any advice y’all can give! Here’s a nice blurry pic for you to see what’s going on…


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## Woodsplitter67 (Oct 1, 2021)

Jmorg said:


> Question for those of you who are installers or familiar with this…I started a roaring top down fire this morning and noticed a reflection of fire on my stovepipe. The damper was open of course and it is setup for rear exit with a tee. Is this ok or should I be concerned? No flames coming out but you can definitely see the fire around the crimped edge of the pipe. I appreciate any advice y’all can give! Here’s a nice blurry pic for you to see what’s going on…
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you have the 2040.. Your talking about the oval adapter.. correct..You should not see and flame or fire at the stove adapter. Its not fit correctly. It needs to be reseated .


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## Jmorg (Oct 1, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> I think you have the 2040.. Your talking about the oval adapter.. correct..You should not see and flame or fire at the stove adapter. Its not fit correctly. It needs to be reseated .


I have the Dauntless with the 6” round connector,  but I assume your answer would be the same regardless right? No flame was coming out but I could see light around it from the flames.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Oct 1, 2021)

Jmorg said:


> I have the Dauntless with the 6” round connector,  but I assume your answer would be the same regardless right? No flame was coming out but I could see light around it from the flames.



Id check it, I see no light at my adapter


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## Jmorg (Oct 1, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Id check it, I see no light at my adapter


Yeah, I’m going to get in touch with my installer…


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## ajayabb (Oct 2, 2021)

Can’t believe it’s that time again. Love this thread


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## Jimmy C (Oct 2, 2021)

Diabel said:


> You can turn the stove 90* gently so you do not snap one of the legs


I started using Gatorade caps under the legs when moving it so it slides easier.  Definitely easier with 2 people.

Glad to see this community running strong!


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## Jimmy C (Oct 2, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I still want to get away from this stove eventually. Over $200 for the refractory box, about $200 for a cat every few years and god forbid any of the internals warp or crack $$$$. Hopefully I get 8-10 years of saving for a new stove.


What would you look to get?


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## Diabel (Oct 2, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> What would you look to get?


I think Randy is quietly dreaming of BK!


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## Woodsplitter67 (Oct 2, 2021)

Iv been sleeping with the windows open for days letting the house cool down..  got the house to 63.. 61 in the bedroom.. got a little fire going.. I got up at 4.30 am to work and just couldn't resist.. sat there for 30 minutes and just enjoyed myself for once


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## CVCabin (Oct 4, 2021)

Hello everyone! I’m a new owner of a basically new/barely used VC Seneca. Does anyone here have one of those?


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## NewGuy132 (Oct 7, 2021)

She’s finally installed. 

A question for everyone, does anyone have a picture of the door gasket and how it runs? I can’t for the life of me get the front door to latch properly. To me it looks like some gasket might be in the way.


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## NewGuy132 (Oct 8, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> She’s finally installed.
> 
> A question for everyone, does anyone have a picture of the door gasket and how it runs? I can’t for the life of me get the front door to latch properly. To me it looks like some gasket might be in the way.
> 
> View attachment 282970


Took a look at the door after work today and for some reason the door closed right up. Maybe I just don’t know how to close a door.


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## Diabel (Oct 8, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> Took a look at the door after work today and for some reason the door closed right up. Maybe I just don’t know how to close a door.


Nice! Now try to figure out how to install a flue meter/thermometer and hopefully you have a cat meter on order.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 17, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> What would you look to get?


Diabel is a mind reader. Yes. I am dreaming of a beautiful Ashford sitting on the hearth. I feel I want to stick with a cat stove. I like the ability to slow & go. However, I’m not turning my nose up to non cat stoves either. If I went non cat I would be looking at Pacific Energy T5 or an Enviro Boston if they are still making them. Jotul would probably be a third non cat option. I really want to stay with the classic look of a cast iron stove.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 17, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> It's that time again..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True wide plank flooring?


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 17, 2021)

Jmorg said:


> Question for those of you who are installers or familiar with this…I started a roaring top down fire this morning and noticed a reflection of fire on my stovepipe. The damper was open of course and it is setup for rear exit with a tee. Is this ok or should I be concerned? No flames coming out but you can definitely see the fire around the crimped edge of the pipe. I appreciate any advice y’all can give! Here’s a nice blurry pic for you to see what’s going on…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can throw a bead of stove cement around it.  This will keep the flue from drawing  air from your house and cooling down your exhaust gases.


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## Jmorg (Oct 17, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> You can throw a bead of stove cement around it.  This will keep the flue from drawing  air from your house and cooling down your exhaust gases.


Yeah, I was actually thinking about doing that sometime this week…thanks for the advice!


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## gthomas785 (Oct 17, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> True wide plank flooring?


Yep. House built in 1850


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 18, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Yep. House built in 1850


I’m so jealous. That looks amazing.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 18, 2021)

I’m getting closer. I didn’t get a chance to work on it yesterday which sucks. I could have finished it and been burning this morning. Anyone know what this threaded hole is in the bottom of the upper fireback?


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## gthomas785 (Oct 18, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I’m so jealous. That looks amazing.


Yeah, it's a pretty cool house we stumbled across a couple years ago in a quiet little New England village. The previous owners were here for 50 years and the family before them owned it for over 80 years. Comes with it's share of maintenance headaches, but I wouldn't trade it for anything at this point.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Yeah, it's a pretty cool house we stumbled across a couple years ago in a quiet little New England village. The previous owners were here for 50 years and the family before them owned it for over 80 years. Comes with it's share of maintenance headaches, but I wouldn't trade it for anything at this point.
> 
> View attachment 283511


We had friends with a house of that vintage in CT. It had a wing extension added about 25 yrs after it was built that had beautiful wide board pine floors.


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## t0asty (Oct 18, 2021)

Currently have a VC 1975 Defiant (solid cast iron no glass doors  ). Was looking to upgrade to the new Defiant however on a different thread I got some feedback that the newer models are not as durable and should possibly reconsider. Anyone have any issues on newer model VC's such as the Defiant or Encore?


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## gthomas785 (Oct 18, 2021)

begreen said:


> We had friends with a house of that vintage in CT. It had a wing extension added about 25 yrs after it was built that had beautiful wide board pine floors.


I will not venture to guess how many times our house was added on to. It really goes Big house, Little house, Back house, Barn... all with different construction and ceiling heights!
Anyway, to stay slightly on the stove topic -  there is or was a fireplace or at least a stove hole in every room of the house, except the newer back addition. When we toured the house I counted seven potential wood burning locations... most of which are not usable anymore, of course.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2021)

> Currently have a VC 1975 Defiant (solid cast iron no glass doors  ). Was looking to upgrade to the new Defiant however on a different thread I got some feedback that the newer models are not as durable and should possibly reconsider. Anyone have any issues on newer model VC's such as the Defiant or Encore?


VC made great stoves during the pre-EPA era, but the quality declined when they changed the internal design from all cast iron components to a refractory package assembly. These did not stand up well. Add to this that the company underwent several ownership changes, one of which knew nothing about stove building. The company ran on past reputation during those years. Fast forward to a few years ago when the industry giant, HHT bought the company. They upgraded the refractory package to be more durable. Internally the stove is more complex but sports some nice features like thermostatic operation and top-loading. Generally, with reasonable care, the modern stoves should go about 10 yrs now before needing an internal rebuild. They have retained their classic, beautiful design and can be decent heaters when properly operating. That said, there are simpler designs that will heat equally well, but will have fewer maintenance costs over the stove's lifetime.


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## gthomas785 (Oct 18, 2021)

t0asty said:


> Currently have a VC 1975 Defiant (solid cast iron no glass doors  ). Was looking to upgrade to the new Defiant however on a different thread I got some feedback that the newer models are not as durable and should possibly reconsider. Anyone have any issues on newer model VC's such as the Defiant or Encore?


I have the Encore 2040-CAT-C, which is one of the newer ones. This will be my 3rd winter with it, and so far I have zero complaints. The combustion chamber is not made of the flimsy ceramic fiber board, it's refractory cement which has the look and feel of concrete. I have noticed a tiny little bit of pitting on the cast refractory parts closest to where the catalyst is, so I figure they will need to be replaced at some point. But we are nowhere near that point yet.

Edit: I do burn 24/7 during the winter, so the "slight pitting" is after putting about 9-10 cords through it.


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## t0asty (Oct 18, 2021)

begreen said:


> VC made great stoves during the pre-EPA era, but the quality declined when they changed the internal design from all cast iron components to a refractory package assembly. These did not stand up well.


That is really a shame and disappointing to hear. I am not sure how much the old lady who I bought the house from +11yrs ago used it, but I've used it through every winter since I bought to supplement my main heat. And at first I really didn't know what I was doing and learned from mistakes and it works similar to the first time I ever used it. There are many things I want such as glass doors, ash tray, thermostat control, top load that really makes me want to upgrade. However, I was always under the impression that other than minor upkeep I wouldn't expect it to ever _not_ work.


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## begreen (Oct 18, 2021)

Sooner or later all stoves need attention. Some stoves have are more complex or have expendable parts like a catalyst that will need regular replacing every 10-12,000 hrs. All stoves will need gaskets replaced eventually. It's basically a matter of the simpler the stove, the less there is to wear and replace. Aesthetically, VC stoves are at the top IMO. They have a classic design.
There are lots of loyal and happy VC owners that love their stoves for all of the positive attributes. And finally, the company has the solid financial backing to go forward.


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## t0asty (Oct 18, 2021)

begreen said:


> Sooner or later all stoves need attention. Some stoves have are more complex or have expendable parts like a catalyst that will need regular replacing every 10-12,000 hrs. All stoves will need gaskets replaced eventually. It's basically a matter of the simpler the stove, the less there is to wear and replace. Aesthetically, VC stoves are at the top IMO. They have a classic design.
> There are lots of loyal and happy VC owners that love their stoves for all of the positive attributes. And finally, the company has the solid financial backing to go forward.


Above all else, I love the look of the VC line of stoves. Cast Iron although incredibly heavy retains heat very well too. Really the only thing I have done to it is replaced the rope seals on my doors. Some air sneaks out of the side panel and is sometimes noticeable when lighting the fire. I like all of the features of the new stoves, and it is really the only one that is going to fit in my current spot unless I get a much smaller stove. I might get through this winter with my current VC and order a new one in the spring for use the following winter.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 18, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Yeah, it's a pretty cool house we stumbled across a couple years ago in a quiet little New England village. The previous owners were here for 50 years and the family before them owned it for over 80 years. Comes with it's share of maintenance headaches, but I wouldn't trade it for anything at this point.
> 
> View attachment 283511


Awesome house.


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## NewGuy132 (Oct 19, 2021)

Does anyone know what what VC’s stance is on bio bricks? I’m waiting for my 2 cord delivery but have a small stack of bio-bricks. Are these good to use?


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 19, 2021)

Well going backwards with this stupid stove. I got all the way to putting the lower fireback in and it wouldn’t fit under the bottom edge of the upper. Less than a 1/16” is the hold up. I’m guessing maybe I didn’t get the upper all the way up in position or something. The damper rod looked positioned well so I’m a bit confused.  It’s a new upper as well. I may take a flap wheel to the bottom edge of the upper and grind off a 1/16” as well. I also tried using gasket rope on the sides of the upper and the top groove of the stove. Not happening this time. It’s just going to get a healthy bead of cement around the whole thing. So disappointed, I thought I was in the home stretch. This time I will install the upper and all internals at the same time. This way I have the ability to nudge the upper around if need be before the cement sets up. I’m open to suggestions and criticism for the guys who have been through this already.


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## Diabel (Oct 19, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Well going backwards with this stupid stove. I got all the way to putting the lower fireback in and it wouldn’t fit under the bottom edge of the upper. Less than a 1/16” is the hold up. I’m guessing maybe I didn’t get the upper all the way up in position or something. The damper rod looked positioned well so I’m a bit confused.  It’s a new upper as well. I may take a flap wheel to the bottom edge of the upper and grind off a 1/16” as well. I also tried using gasket rope on the sides of the upper and the top groove of the stove. Not happening this time. It’s just going to get a healthy bead of cement around the whole thing. So disappointed, I thought I was in the home stretch. This time I will install the upper and all internals at the same time. This way I have the ability to nudge the upper around if need be before the cement sets up. I’m open to suggestions and criticism for the guys who have been through this already.


As I remember, there is a groove where the lower goes in. It needs to be perfectly cleaned of any debris before the lower will fit and clear the upper


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## sean b (Oct 19, 2021)

Hey all, hope everyone is well. I've been off the site for a few years but decided I'd try to pick some brains. We have a VC Encore 1450 non cat. Had the 'fountain' replaced a few years ago and it seems to be holding up ok. I need to replace some gaskets, which shouldn't be a big deal. Last year, we had quite a bit of back puffing. Not sure if it was the stove or the chimney but I cleaned everything halfway through winter (Central PA) and it didn't seem to help much. I know this stove is a bit of a problem child as I learned after we bought it around December of 2008. So I'm thinking of replacing it down the road. House is a classic two story about 1550 square feet. Would like the same look with the least amount of maintenance issues. 

Any recommendations?


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## NewGuy132 (Oct 19, 2021)

First break in fire tonight. Thinking if I stay up late enough I might do the 2nd one tonight too.


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## begreen (Oct 19, 2021)

sean b said:


> Hey all, hope everyone is well. I've been off the site for a few years but decided I'd try to pick some brains. We have a VC Encore 1450 non cat. Had the 'fountain' replaced a few years ago and it seems to be holding up ok. I need to replace some gaskets, which shouldn't be a big deal. Last year, we had quite a bit of back puffing. Not sure if it was the stove or the chimney but I cleaned everything halfway through winter (Central PA) and it didn't seem to help much. I know this stove is a bit of a problem child as I learned after we bought it around December of 2008. So I'm thinking of replacing it down the road. House is a classic two story about 1550 square feet. Would like the same look with the least amount of maintenance issues.
> 
> Any recommendations?


Was the fountain vacuumed out? A couple things that can cause backpuffing are insufficient draft and wood that is not fully seasoned. How was the firewood last season?

Unfortunately the choices are slimmer for new stoves this year. We are still waiting for new models to comply with the 2020 EPA requirements. The Hearthstone Shelburne and Manchester are pretty good lookers.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 19, 2021)

Diabel said:


> As I remember, there is a groove where the lower goes in. It needs to be perfectly cleaned of any debris before the lower will fit and clear the upper


Yep. And it’s all cleaned out. I ripped all the guts out again. Laid the stove back on some 6x6 to try this again. I’m going to do a dry fit with both the upper and lower before I put the refractory box back in and throw the cement in there.


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## Jimmy C (Oct 19, 2021)

Probe thermometer seems to want to keep angling down.  Guessing this will put it too close to the CAT and readings wont be as accurate.  Anyone run into this issue?  I assume the weight of it has opened the refractory a bit over time which is causing the issue.


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## PatrickWR (Oct 19, 2021)

begreen said:


> Aesthetically, VC stoves are at the top IMO. They have a classic design.
> There are lots of loyal and happy VC owners that love their stoves for all of the positive attributes. And finally, the company has the solid financial backing to go forward.


Well said. In my neck of the woods, our stove is a non-functioning end table for about 6-7 months out of the year. Might as well look classy while it's sitting around doing nothing!


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## sean b (Oct 19, 2021)

begreen said:


> Was the fountain vacuumed out? A couple things that can cause backpuffing are insufficient draft and wood that is not fully seasoned. How was the firewood last season?
> 
> Unfortunately the choices are slimmer for new stoves this year. We are still waiting for new models to comply with the 2020 EPA requirements. The Hearthstone Shelburne and Manchester are pretty good lookers.


Yes to both questions. I always use a mirror to make sure I get each side of the fountain effectively vacuumed out. It won't please the wife but I may use compressed air when I clean it soon to make sure all is clear after vacuuming. 

Also, I usually have about a 3 year supply of seasoned, split hardwood on hand, under tarp or roof.  So what I'll burn this fall/winter was cut and split 3 years ago and verified with a moisture gauge to be less than 20% before burning. 

I'm very particular about the process but my concerns are based on all the bad news I've learned about our stove after buying it.  I also had the rear cast iron panel replaced when the fountain was done as a crack developed in the cast after the fountain failed. Beautiful stove and great when it works properly but I'm just having a problem trusting it to continue to perform safely.


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## Diabel (Oct 19, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Yep. And it’s all cleaned out. I ripped all the guts out again. Laid the stove back on some 6x6 to try this again. I’m going to do a dry fit with both the upper and lower before I put the refractory box back in and throw the cement in there.


It will fit. Be patient, you did this before!


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 20, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Probe thermometer seems to want to keep angling down.  Guessing this will put it too close to the CAT and readings wont be as accurate.  Anyone run into this issue?  I assume the weight of it has opened the refractory a bit over time which is causing the issue.
> 
> View attachment 283599


You can take the cover off of the secondary air shutter and use a clip to secure the cable to. It will help keep the probe in place.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 20, 2021)

Diabel said:


> It will fit. Be patient, you did this before!


I appreciate it!  This is my first go at replacing the upper and refractory box.  I was comparing it to the old upper I tore out and there a few things that measure slightly different from each other.  It will fit one way or another. I’m just going to slow down and pay special attention to how the upper and lower align before cementing.


----------



## Jmorg (Oct 20, 2021)

I’ve had about 4 fires now in the new Dauntless and I am loving this thing so far. It is so much more efficient than my old Century Heating insert. Just running it “flex burn” and still have hot coals after about 9-10 hours! My only complaint so far is that the glass doesn’t stay as clean as my old stove but as long as the wood is good and dry it’s not too bad. Happy fire season, y’all!


----------



## NewGuy132 (Oct 20, 2021)

Jmorg said:


> I’ve had about 4 fires now in the new Dauntless and I am loving this thing so far. It is so much more efficient than my old Century Heating insert. Just running it “flex burn” and still have hot coals after about 9-10 hours! My only complaint so far is that the glass doesn’t stay as clean as my old stove but as long as the wood is good and dry it’s not too bad. Happy fire season, y’all!
> 
> View attachment 283666
> View attachment 283667


When you say you are running "Flexburn" does that mean damper open/no cat?  Have you ran it with the cat? If so is there a  big difference?


----------



## Jmorg (Oct 20, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> When you say you are running "Flexburn" does that mean damper open/no cat?  Have you ran it with the cat? If so is there a  big difference?


I don’t have a cat…yet anyways. I try to get stove temp up to about 500 degrees and then close the damper for secondary combustion. I’d like to try to get the cat for Christmas, but we’ll see. So far it’s working great without it though!


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 20, 2021)

I did as much dremel work as I could before the wife stopped me. Apparently the little ones need their sleep. I did dry fit the upper and lower in the stove and there is still just the smallest amount of metal to metal contact making it tough for the lower to sit flush in place. The hole for the damper rod is almost 1/16th off between the new upper and old upper. I’m wondering if this is my hang up. So I’m going to do a little grinding with a flap wheel on the bottom edge of the upper and the top and bottom edge of the lower and this should give me adequate clearance. I did throw the old upper back in to compare and there definitely is not any room between the edges of the firebacks. A new Ashford is sounding better and better every day I have to keep messing with this damn stove.   My goal for tomorrow after work is to get all my grinding done and a final dry fit.  If that goes fast enough I will cement the upper in.... again. If not,  it waits until Monday unfortunately.


----------



## Diabel (Oct 20, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I did as much dremel work as I could before the wife stopped me. Apparently the little ones need their sleep. I did dry fit the upper and lower in the stove and there is still just the smallest amount of metal to metal contact making it tough for the lower to sit flush in place. The hole for the damper rod is almost 1/16th off between the new upper and old upper. I’m wondering if this is my hang up. So I’m going to do a little grinding with a flap wheel on the bottom edge of the upper and the top and bottom edge of the lower and this should give me adequate clearance. I did throw the old upper back in to compare and there definitely is not any room between the edges of the firebacks. A new Ashford is sounding better and better every day I have to keep messing with this damn stove.   My goal for tomorrow after work is to get all my grinding done and a final dry fit.  If that goes fast enough I will cement the upper in.... again. If not,  it waits until Monday unfortunately


I do love my BK Princess. Boring but amazing in-terms of constant heat out put. Superior to anything I have experienced in my limited wood burning life.


----------



## Jimmy C (Oct 21, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> You can take the cover off of the secondary air shutter and use a clip to secure the cable to. It will help keep the probe in place.
> 
> View attachment 283633


Interesting!  Do you have the clip on the bottom of the shutter cover?


----------



## NewGuy132 (Oct 21, 2021)

Did the last of my initial burn ins today. I’ve been slowly upping the stove top temp by 100 degrees or so each time.  

I saw that it hit 500 and change so I flipped the damper and heard the cat kick in. It was a good sound. Now I’m ready for lows in the 30’s this weekend. Once the temp in the house hit 77 in the room with the stove my wife finally said that it was hot and took off her sweatshirt.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 21, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Interesting!  Do you have the clip on the bottom of the shutter cover?


No. Once the cover is removed there are two ridges in the stove itself. That’s what I clipped it to. The cover never went back on. As a matter of fact my secondary air shutter is disconnected and tightened shut. Far less oh $hit moments with the cat trying to go nuclear. I’m not even going to install the secondary probe into my new refractory box if I can ever get the stove back together.
Once I get this heater back on its feet and running I will post some pics of my set up. At the moment it is still gutted and laying on its back on the hearth.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 21, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> Did the last of my initial burn ins today. I’ve been slowly upping the stove top temp by 100 degrees or so each time.
> 
> I saw that it hit 500 and change so I flipped the damper and heard the cat kick in. It was a good sound. Now I’m ready for lows in the 30’s this weekend. Once the temp in the house hit 77 in the room with the stove my wife finally said that it was hot and took off her sweatshirt.


Does this stove come with a cat probe?


----------



## NewGuy132 (Oct 21, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Does this stove come with a cat probe?


To get the 26% tax credit I had to buy the cat kit. It included the cat and the temp probe for it. Unfortunately this is installed in a fireplace so it’s hard to see the temp probe in the back. I can see it but it isn’t easy.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 22, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> To get the 26% tax credit I had to buy the cat kit. It included the cat and the temp probe for it. Unfortunately this is installed in a fireplace so it’s hard to see the temp probe in the back. I can see it but it isn’t easy.


Look into the Auber Instruments AT100. It’s a digital probe. A must have with the older VC stoves. Most of us have one on our stoves.


----------



## Todd (Oct 22, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Look into the Auber Instruments AT100. It’s a digital probe. A must have with the older VC stoves. Most of us have one on our stoves.


or you could hang a small mirror back there?


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 22, 2021)

Todd said:


> or you could hang a small mirror back there?


Yes that would be a cheaper option however the At100 is not expensive and it has an alarm you can set to warn you when the cat temps are entering the danger zone


----------



## begreen (Oct 22, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> To get the 26% tax credit I had to buy the cat kit. It included the cat and the temp probe for it. Unfortunately this is installed in a fireplace so it’s hard to see the temp probe in the back. I can see it but it isn’t easy.


Maybe try using an inspection mirror?
Amazon product


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 23, 2021)

First fire of the season!  Just not in my house stove. That one is still gutted. I’m at my cabin for the weekend. Time to test out the beech we cut done a year ago.


----------



## NewGuy132 (Oct 24, 2021)

Is there an easy way to tell what is steam and what is smoke? I’m burning my flexburn for the first time this week  I have the cat package and it is in the operation zone.  I’m getting light smoke/steam out of my chimney with the cat engaged.  I’m burning biobricks so I wouldn’t think that there is much moisture in them. 




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 24, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> Is there an easy way to tell what is steam and what is smoke? I’m burning my flexburn for the first time this week  I have the cat package and it is in the operation zone.  I’m getting light smoke/steam out of my chimney with the cat engaged.  I’m burning biobricks so I wouldn’t think that there is much moisture in them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Steam disappears within 10-15 of chimney and is white. Smoke is more of a grey and is visible much longer and of greater distances from the chimney. I think what you are seeing is a small amount of steam.


----------



## begreen (Oct 24, 2021)

Most likely steam. If a 2 lb. brick is at 10% it has over an ounce and a half water in it.


----------



## wjohn (Oct 24, 2021)

I guess I should tag into this thread to follow it now - I finished installing my Aspen C3 and look forward to learning how to get the best out of it!


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 26, 2021)

Alright. Going back together again and I thought I was doing good. I’ve seemed to have cracked the refractory box tightening down the upper.  Need some advice. Run it or replace it?


----------



## Diabel (Oct 26, 2021)

Hm
Both ends damaged? If you reinstall the lower, are the gaps?


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 26, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Hm
> Both ends damaged? If you reinstall the lower, are the gaps?


My hatred for this stove is increasing by the day. Umm. Once the lower is installed I can’t tell. I suppose I can take the cat and cat cover back out, put the lower in and check. I did have some refractory cement laying around. So I sort of patched over the cracks. Trying gently push some into the cracks. At this point I think I’m going to just run with it. I’m tired of sinking money into this stove. I would rather start saving for the next stove. 
It is cracked for sure but no separation. So no gap. Hoping for the best at this point. I really don’t feel like taking the upper out again nor do I want to spend and $250.00 on another refractory box. Above all I do want to do what is right and safe. I’m open to suggestions and advice.


----------



## ajayabb (Oct 26, 2021)

The upper part of my refractory box separated a bit from the lower part.  I reinstalled it as is and I have had no problems so far Randy.


----------



## gthomas785 (Oct 26, 2021)

I would just run it and check in a month to see if it's causing any issues.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 26, 2021)

ajayabb said:


> The upper part of my refractory box separated a bit from the lower part.  I reinstalled it as is and I have had no problems so far Randy.


Thank you. This helps easy my nerves a little bit. If I could lift this stove up it would be in my front yard... then I would have to be looking into replacing a picture window in my living room.


----------



## Diabel (Oct 26, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> My hatred for this stove is increasing by the day. Umm. Once the lower is installed I can’t tell. I suppose I can take the cat and cat cover back out, put the lower in and check. I did have some refractory cement laying around. So I sort of patched over the cracks. Trying gently push some into the cracks. At this point I think I’m going to just run with it. I’m tired of sinking money into this stove. I would rather start saving for the next stove.
> It is cracked for sure but no separation. So no gap. Hoping for the best at this point. I really don’t feel like taking the upper out again nor do I want to spend and $250.00 on another refractory box. Above all I do want to do what is right and safe. I’m open to suggestions and advice.


If the pieces did not break completely off then you should be ok. I remember when I did mine I was stressed like hell! You know how to run/control that stove, it will serve you well for some yrs now.  In the past three winters I have not used mine full time since I have been away a lot during winter. But I tell you this fall it has been fun running my VC. 
Btw bk too but bloody boring!


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 26, 2021)

Diabel said:


> If the pieces did not break completely off then you should be ok. I remember when I did mine I was stressed like hell! You know how to run/control that stove, it will serve you well for some yrs now.  In the past three winters I have not used mine full time since I have been away a lot during winter. But I tell you this fall it has been fun running my VC.
> Btw bk too but bloody boring!


Yeah, all in all I do know how to run this stove and it heats well. In my opinion it is still the best looking classic stove out there. I just wish it wasn’t such a headache to work on. I will run it for a month or so and take the lower and cat out to inspect the box. Outside of some gasket work here and there I should get a good number of years out of the stove before this needs to happen again. And at that point I will just slide a brand new stove under the pipe and call it good.


----------



## NewGuy132 (Oct 26, 2021)

Being new to this I will probably have 1000 questions this year and I apologize. 

I am running a flexburn and when I close the damper I get a jet noise. I just assume that is the cat doing it’s thing. Is that a correct assumption? It seems to stop after not too long.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 26, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> Being new to this I will probably have 1000 questions this year and I apologize.
> 
> I am running a flexburn and when I close the damper I get a jet noise. I just assume that is the cat doing it’s thing. Is that a correct assumption? It seems to stop after not too long.


One thing it could be is the stove adjusting to a sudden change in flow mixed with the cat lighting off. Once you shut the damper everything has to change paths. Mainly your exhaust flow. Just a theory. Don’t take my word as gospel. I don’t have any experience with a flex burn. Just my 2550 and my 1945 defiant.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 26, 2021)

I do wish the VC thread had a resident professional who would chime in here when all of us have questions. It’s awesome that we all help each other out, however, someone who knew all the models inside and out would a great bonus.


----------



## NewGuy132 (Oct 27, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> One thing it could be is the stove adjusting to a sudden change in flow mixed with the cat lighting off. Once you shut the damper everything has to change paths. Mainly your exhaust flow. Just a theory. Don’t take my word as gospel. I don’t have any experience with a flex burn. Just my 2550 and my 1945 defiant.


I think that it has to be the cat kicking off.  If I don't wait until it is hot enough to flip the damper I don't get the noise.  If I open it back up and wait for it to heat up a little more then close it I get the noise.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 27, 2021)

Guys familiar with the 2550. Are you putting gasket down the handle side of the door where it overlaps the other door or just gasket on the non handle door?


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## Diabel (Oct 27, 2021)

Stove is running, cannot remember


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 27, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Stove is running, cannot remember


Haha. I know, I can’t neither..


----------



## ajayabb (Oct 27, 2021)




----------



## ajayabb (Oct 27, 2021)

ajayabb said:


> View attachment 284189


Here’s how I ran my gasket on the non handle side


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## ajayabb (Oct 27, 2021)

Here’s the door side  Gasket runs all around


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 27, 2021)

ajayabb said:


> View attachment 284189


What’s on the inside of the handle side door?


----------



## ajayabb (Oct 27, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> What’s on the inside of the handle side door?


Picture above shows handle side door with gasket running the perimeter of the inside of the door. Sorry for the crappy pictures


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 27, 2021)

ajayabb said:


> Picture above shows handle side door with gasket running the perimeter of the inside of the door. Sorry for the crappy pictures


No worries. And did you wrap the gasket around on the left door and run it down the outside of the door on the mating side?


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## ajayabb (Oct 27, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> No worries. And did you wrap the gasket around on the left door and run it down the outside of the door on the mating side?


No. I  didn’t run it down the side where the doors meet.


----------



## Diabel (Oct 27, 2021)

As I recall one door has gasket all around and the other has a gap. I am letting my stove go out (relatively warm out), will check in the morning


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 27, 2021)

Thanks guys. I look forward to your feedback in the morning diabel.


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## RandyBoBandy (Oct 29, 2021)

It’s alive!  Just going to do a small fire right now to cure the gasket cement.  I ended up running the gasket on the left door down the front groove and nothing on the mating edge of the right door. I also included a pic of how I clip the probe wire to the stove.


----------



## Jimmy C (Oct 30, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Guys familiar with the 2550. Are you putting gasket down the handle side of the door where it overlaps the other door or just gasket on the non handle door?


I just did my door gaskets.  where they meet i only have gasket on the non handle side.  Thats how its always been, for me at least


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## Jimmy C (Oct 30, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> It’s alive!  Just going to do a small fire right now to cure the gasket cement.  I ended up running the gasket on the left door down the front groove and nothing on the mating edge of the right door. I also included a pic of how I clip the probe wire to the stove.
> 
> View attachment 284329
> View attachment 284330


Thanks for the probe pic!  I didnt know they made high temp ones short enough to not have half the probe hanging out.  What probe is that?  

Also, I didnt want to take the shutter cover off so I used a hanger (see pic).  It's super ghetto but I will be looking for a way to use the same metal clip to hold the wire.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Oct 30, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Thanks for the probe pic!  I didnt know they made high temp ones short enough to not have half the probe hanging out.  What probe is that?
> 
> Also, I didnt want to take the shutter cover off so I used a hanger (see pic).  It's super ghetto but I will be looking for a way to use the same metal clip to hold the wire.
> 
> The probe itself is a condor probe. I had a crappy over priced condor digital probe before my AT100. It’s a 4 inch probe. I believe Auber only has a 6 inch. I have the back heat shield on my stove so leaving the shutter cover off isn’t a big deal for me. I didn’t even install the secondary probe in this new refractory box so the shutter is shut permanently


----------



## Reckless (Nov 2, 2021)

Glad to see everyone back for another season of torment hahaha. Need to regasket nonhandle door but running maple and all seems good. Hope everyone is doing well.


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## clancey (Nov 2, 2021)

lol glad your back for your torture too.  lol ha ha.  old mrs clancey
Have fun fixing your door...lol


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## Billyhawknh (Nov 2, 2021)

Hello All

I have a VC defiant encore and have had it for 23 years. The lower fireback is cracked and warped. The upper fireback and the refractory are perfect. The lower fireback price is reasonable so I'm going to replace it soon. I can't find anything on replacing just the lower. Does anyone know if I need to take out the upper to replace the lower? Hate to mess with the damper, wedges and have to re-cement etc... I did remove the two lower bolts and the grate to see if it would kind of just pop out but doesn't seem to want to budge as the top of the lower is behind the upper... Thanks in advance...

Anyone have any thoughts on the above ?  Thanks In advance


----------



## begreen (Nov 2, 2021)

Billyhawknh said:


> Hello All
> 
> I have a VC defiant encore and have had it for 23 years. The lower fireback is cracked and warped. The upper fireback and the refractory are perfect. The lower fireback price is reasonable so I'm going to replace it soon. I can't find anything on replacing just the lower. Does anyone know if I need to take out the upper to replace the lower? Hate to mess with the damper, wedges and have to re-cement etc... I did remove the two lower bolts and the grate to see if it would kind of just pop out but doesn't seem to want to budge as the top of the lower is behind the upper... Thanks in advance...
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on the above ?  Thanks In advance


Moved to the VC owners thread for a better response.


----------



## ajayabb (Nov 2, 2021)

Billyhawknh said:


> Hello All
> 
> I have a VC defiant encore and have had it for 23 years. The lower fireback is cracked and warped. The upper fireback and the refractory are perfect. The lower fireback price is reasonable so I'm going to replace it soon. I can't find anything on replacing just the lower. Does anyone know if I need to take out the upper to replace the lower? Hate to mess with the damper, wedges and have to re-cement etc... I did remove the two lower bolts and the grate to see if it would kind of just pop out but doesn't seem to want to budge as the top of the lower is behind the upper... Thanks in advance...
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on the above ?  Thanks In advance


I have the 2250.  Not sure if you have the 2190 model.  My lower fireback comes off after removing the combustion throat first by hand.  Pretty easy at least with my model


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## Crash525 (Nov 3, 2021)

I am still new to wood burning. I had a post on here last april-ish about my wood stove getting to hot with a small amount of wood. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/new-vc-encore-and-new-to-wood-burning.187047/ . Since then over the summer the company that installed it came out and fixed it. I had found out that the air door on the back side of the stove was stuck open. They said that the cable for the thermostat was pinched upon installation. It was new stove. So fast forward to yesterday. I fired it up since it was 35 and I wanted to get familiar with it more since I only burned it 2 or 3 times. Yesterday I got a fire going and got a coal bed and the stove top thermometer got to 350-400 no hotter. Thermostat was on high. The cat was not installed. It seemed like I had a hard time keeping the fire going once I shut the damper. It was like this for about 5 to 6 hours. Every time I go to close the damper it would snuff out the fire. Flames would die down, soot on the glass, temp would drop. I open the damper and it would fire back up. I was burning oak and cherry that ranged from 12-18% moisture. 12 to 15 inch long 4-5 wide and split. Does that seem normal?

Today I put the cat in. Got a fire going, established a coal bed, brought it up to 500F and let it stabilized for 20 minutes. Closed the damper, thermostat on high for about 20 minutes then down to half then to about one third. It ran great for a few hours. Stable stove top temps of about 450-500F. I had one third to half a load of the same wood in it. once it burned down to about one quarter the stove got hot. The griddle thermometer got up to 650F, I turned the thermostat to low to see if it would help and it kept climbing for about 40 minutes until it got to 700-750+F. I opened the damper and it took a while to cool down and it dropped to 450-500F. closed the damper and let it smolder but it stayed at a solid 400F for about 2 hours. Glowing logs little to no flames inside and no smoke out of the chimney. I have no idea what caused the spike in temperature. Could it be an air leak. Also to note while the stove started to get hot I did notice a small gap between back ceramic plate. I could see fire behind it. Ill post a picture.

Does anyone have any clue or ideas of what could have caused this? I have a video also but im not sure whats the best way to post it.


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## ajayabb (Nov 3, 2021)

It sounds like you may have an air leak somewhere if the stove temperature continued to climb with the air control turned all the way down.  Even though this is a new stove I would check the gaskets on the doors with the dollar bill test and also make sure the ash pan is closed all the way and locked shut   The ash pan is a common area for air leaks .


----------



## begreen (Nov 3, 2021)

Visually verify that the air control flap is closing completely. They can get hung up sometimes for a number of reasons.


----------



## Lac a Webber (Nov 3, 2021)

Very excited the new Encore 2040 cat-c is on the way!

I am ordering an Auber T100 as it sounds like the way to go for the flue temp.  I just want to make sure I am getting the right things.
AT100 link
K type TC
I assume I want the "Mini Connector" option?  I am thinking it will allow me to plug into the AT100

I noticed that someone mentioned the Auber T200 but it just looks like it is the digital thermocouple and probe in one pkge.  It is more expensive than buying the above separately so it makes me think I am missing something.
AT200 link

Also confused because the AT100 says it comes with a "Three-pin connector"
And the K type TC says it is a "Two-pin mini connector"

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Diabel (Nov 3, 2021)

That meter is meant for the cat temp. For the flue  temp a regular probe meter is fine.


----------



## Diabel (Nov 3, 2021)

I am away until next wed. You can pm me or call me and we can chat about your setup


----------



## Jimmy C (Nov 3, 2021)

begreen said:


> Visually verify that the air control flap is closing completely. They can get hung up sometimes for a number of reasons.


Why would the fire die out when he closes damper without the catalyst then?  If there is an air leak or primary stuck open, he would over fire with or without cat, no?


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 3, 2021)

ajayabb said:


> It sounds like you may have an air leak somewhere if the stove temperature continued to climb with the air control turned all the way down.  Even though this is a new stove I would check the gaskets on the doors with the dollar bill test and also make sure the ash pan is closed all the way and locked shut   The ash pan is a common area for air leaks .


I did  the check with a dollar bill. I burned with it the last two three nights. I used and incense stick and I didn't find any leaks. I did have it back puff on me once and I did notice a small puff that came out under the top from left. Just under the lid.

I have to constantly monitor this thing. It will either get to hot or die off. Does anyone else have this issue? I am open to suggestions


Lac a Webber said:


> Very excited the new Encore 2040 cat-c is on the way!
> 
> I am ordering an Auber T100 as it sounds like the way to go for the flue temp.  I just want to make sure I am getting the right things.
> AT100 link
> ...


Double check to make sure that the air control flap opens and close when you move the air control level. Mine was stuck open.


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 3, 2021)

begreen said:


> Visually verify that the air control flap is closing completely. They can get hung up sometimes for a number of reasons.


The flap opens and closes I guess properly now. I shuts all the way when the air level is closed. It was pinched from the factory when I got it.


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 3, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Why would the fire die out when he closes damper without the catalyst then?  If there is an air leak or primary stuck open, he would over fire with or without cat, no?


It does it with both the cat and no cat. I can't figure this out. I think it either has a broken thermostat coil or it's damages or bent and/or it has an air leak. I can get a nice fire going but I have to constantly adjust the air control once the damper is closed. It either gets to hot or dies out.  Even going from fully open to slightly under it will just shut down the fire. Then the stove starts creeping up to 600f and then I turn it down to half or less to make sure it doesn't over heat. 

I have no clue. Im open to suggestions.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 4, 2021)

Billyhawknh said:


> Hello All
> 
> I have a VC defiant encore and have had it for 23 years. The lower fireback is cracked and warped. The upper fireback and the refractory are perfect. The lower fireback price is reasonable so I'm going to replace it soon. I can't find anything on replacing just the lower. Does anyone know if I need to take out the upper to replace the lower? Hate to mess with the damper, wedges and have to re-cement etc... I did remove the two lower bolts and the grate to see if it would kind of just pop out but doesn't seem to want to budge as the top of the lower is behind the upper... Thanks in advance...
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on the above ?  Thanks In advance


What model are you running?


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 4, 2021)

VC encore 2040. Do these refactory backs look ok?


----------



## Jimmy C (Nov 6, 2021)

Anyone have any tips for keeping the whole load from igniting.  Usually I cruise at 450-600 GT until the whole load ignites and them i'm well over 700 until the rest of the fuel burns out and temp starts coming down.  I mostly solve this by doing half loads but obviously burn time suffers.  Just wish there was a way to keep the stove from kicking into second gear and igniting the entire load.


----------



## Diabel (Nov 6, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Anyone have any tips for keeping the whole load from igniting.  Usually I cruise at 450-600 GT until the whole load ignites and them i'm well over 700 until the rest of the fuel burns out and temp starts coming down.  I mostly solve this by doing half loads but obviously burn time suffers.  Just wish there was a way to keep the stove from kicking into second gear and igniting the entire load.


Those bi-metalic thermometers are not very accurate. If I check mine against IR gun, it reads the same until it hits 350*, then the bimetalic starts to raise much higher than the ir. To the point where bimetallic reads 700 and ir reads 550. I trust the ir gun


----------



## Reckless (Nov 6, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Those bi-metalic thermometers are not very accurate. If I check mine against IR gun, it reads the same until it hits 350*, then the bimetalic starts to raise much higher than the ir. To the point where bimetallic reads 700 and ir reads 550. I trust the ir gun


Mine was so bad I completely disconnected it and closed the opening. Depending on your draft there are a few things you can try, plugging the EPA holes might help also.


----------



## ajayabb (Nov 6, 2021)

I agree.  Start with disconnecting the secondary air controller on the back of the stove.  I disconnected mine and closed up with metallic tape


----------



## Rusty18 (Nov 6, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Anyone have any tips for keeping the whole load from igniting.  Usually I cruise at 450-600 GT until the whole load ignites and them i'm well over 700 until the rest of the fuel burns out and temp starts coming down.  I mostly solve this by doing half loads but obviously burn time suffers.  Just wish there was a way to keep the stove from kicking into second gear and igniting the entire load.


Big splits!
I purposely split the right size tree in half for the sole purpose of having splits that will barely fit in the door then a few “regular size” ones to fill in around it.  Seems to create enough of a delay that the whole reload doesn’t cook off at the same time.


----------



## Rusty18 (Nov 6, 2021)

Just a small fire to make sure all the gasket holder is cured and a small heat cycle to help all the iron reseat.  And it’ll help dry out the chimney, I had it capped all summer but it has been ridiculously damp this year.
At least that’s my excuse for starting this fire!


----------



## Jimmy C (Nov 7, 2021)

Reckless said:


> Mine was so bad I completely disconnected it and closed the opening. Depending on your draft there are a few things you can try, plugging the EPA holes might help also.


Have not tried either of these mods.  When you take the secondary thermometer out, are you essentially closing the secondary air flap?


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 7, 2021)

Reckless said:


> Mine was so bad I completely disconnected it and closed the opening. Depending on your draft there are a few things you can try, plugging the EPA holes might help also.


Have you checked to see if the air control is actually moving in correlation to moving the lever? Mine was stuck open when I got it.


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 7, 2021)

ajayabb said:


> I agree.  Start with disconnecting the secondary air controller on the back of the stove.  I disconnected mine and closed up with metallic tape


You shouldn't have to do this. These stoves are something "special"


----------



## Jimmy C (Nov 7, 2021)

Crash525 said:


> Have you checked to see if the air control is actually moving in correlation to moving the lever? Mine was stuck open when I got it.


Yea that would be pretty obvious if it was not.  You can feel it in the way the lever moves not to mention observe the fire or just checking the flap....   I just mean that the wood tends to ignite all at once towards mid burn.  Just looking to get more efficiency when cruising.  All drafts are different, so doing the secondary mod probably helps for some.  Definitely considering.


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 7, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Yea that would be pretty obvious if it was not.  You can feel it in the way the lever moves not to mention observe the fire or just checking the flap....   I just mean that the wood tends to ignite all at once towards mid burn.  Just looking to get more efficiency when cruising.  All drafts are different, so doing the secondary mod probably helps for some.  Definitely considering.


We'll make sure it does move properly. It could be set to low and it could still be open. The wood will all be on fire and should be to engage the cat but once the cat is engaged it should regulate the temp as the manual says with the air control. You might have an air leak somewhere.


----------



## Rusty18 (Nov 7, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Have not tried either of these mods.  When you take the secondary thermometer out, are you essentially closing the secondary air flap?


Leave the probe in, some people just unhook the linkage so the secondary air stays closed, or at a fixed position.


----------



## Reckless (Nov 7, 2021)

Crash525 said:


> Have you checked to see if the air control is actually moving in correlation to moving the lever? Mine was stuck open when I got it.


Secondary air, not primary.


----------



## Jimmy C (Nov 8, 2021)

Rusty18 said:


> Leave the probe in, some people just unhook the linkage so the secondary air stays closed, or at a fixed position.


Think I might need to do this.  Just cant keep the stove from creeping into the 1600s (sometimes 1700s).  Any video or thread that describes the process?  Never even taken the cover off the secondary air to be honest.


----------



## Reckless (Nov 9, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Think I might need to do this.  Just cant keep the stove from creeping into the 1600s (sometimes 1700s).  Any video or thread that describes the process?  Never even taken the cover off the secondary air to be honest.


Remove the rear heat shield and it’a right there, you’ll see the linkage down to the door from the coil. Disconnect and tighten the screw so the door doesn’t open ( I stuffed some tin foil in mine before tightening the screw just to be sure it’s blocked).


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 9, 2021)

Can any one confirm if this is how their stove air control operates with the air door.


----------



## Reckless (Nov 9, 2021)

Crash525 said:


> Can any one confirm if this is how their stove air control operates with the air door.



Mine travels the full distance but I had a similar situation. Try loosening the bolt on the door with the handle all the way open, push the door open by hand, pull the cable slightly  and tighten the bolt with it open. At least I think that’s how I got the best travel out of it, it’s been a few years.


----------



## Crash525 (Nov 9, 2021)

Reckless said:


> Mine travels the full distance but I had a similar situation. Try loosening the bolt on the door with the handle all the way open, push the door open by hand, pull the cable slightly  and tighten the bolt with it open. At least I think that’s how I got the best travel out of it, it’s been a few years.


Thanks. My cable was pinched on the inside from the factory. The dealer fixed it but I don't think it's right. It feels like it's catching it or rubbing somewhere.


----------



## Diabel (Nov 9, 2021)

In think it looks fine


----------



## ajayabb (Nov 9, 2021)

Looks good.  I have to give you props for being able to get behind the stove each time !


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 10, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Have not tried either of these mods.  When you take the secondary thermometer out, are you essentially closing the secondary air flap?


Don’t take the secondary probe out because you will be left with a hole to plug. Just disconnect the little bar attached to the shutter. Leave the shutter fully closed. I put two round magnets on the bottom of the stove to keep the shutter in place. Also if you take out the pivot screw there should be a little round washer that keeps the shutter moving freely. Take that washer out. Reinstall the shutter screw snug.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 10, 2021)

Crash525 said:


> You shouldn't have to do this. These stoves are something "special"


Special in the sense that they are the only stove on the market where you have to keep a toolbox on the hearth as well.


----------



## Reckless (Nov 10, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Special in the sense that they are the only stove on the market where you have to keep a toolbox on the hearth as well.


And a bucket of ash if it goes nuclear :D


----------



## TravBot (Nov 10, 2021)

Hi all, I'm new to VC and wood stoves in general. Just got a Montpelier II put in 5 days ago, and we've had a fire every night. The installer warned that the first one or two fires might have some fumes from the paint curing, but we're still noticing it after 5. Additionally, yesterday at one point I turned off the blower and the carbon monoxide detector chirped. I put the blower back on, and a fan in the window (it was a relatively warm night anyway) and didn't hear from it again, but being new to this all I want to make sure that there isn't something wrong. Other than cardboard starter, I've only burned wood in it, 

Additionally, the fire seems to like to crank up to full speed and just stay there. Any tips on how to keep it a little bit slower? I've been loading it East/West with 4-5 logs to start.

Thanks in advance, and other than the above, I've been enjoying this so far.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 12, 2021)

TravBot said:


> Hi all, I'm new to VC and wood stoves in general. Just got a Montpelier II put in 5 days ago, and we've had a fire every night. The installer warned that the first one or two fires might have some fumes from the paint curing, but we're still noticing it after 5. Additionally, yesterday at one point I turned off the blower and the carbon monoxide detector chirped. I put the blower back on, and a fan in the window (it was a relatively warm night anyway) and didn't hear from it again, but being new to this all I want to make sure that there isn't something wrong. Other than cardboard starter, I've only burned wood in it,
> 
> Additionally, the fire seems to like to crank up to full speed and just stay there. Any tips on how to keep it a little bit slower? I've been loading it East/West with 4-5 logs to start.
> 
> Thanks in advance, and other than the above, I've been enjoying this so far.


Is this a fixed air rate stove? (Not sure of the correct terminology). Is there an air control?  And stop using cardboard to start your fire. You are going to clog up your cap with sh!$ if you haven’t done so already.


----------



## TravBot (Nov 12, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Is this a fixed air rate stove? (Not sure of the correct terminology). Is there an air control?  And stop using cardboard to start your fire. You are going to clog up your cap with sh!$ if you haven’t done so already.


Oof thanks for the heads up. I saw the cardboard thing as a tip somewhere and it did definitely seem to help get things started but I’ll stop that for sure.

It is a fixed rate unfortunately. The only “adjustment” is there’s a startup timer that basically opens up an airway and then closes it when the timer finishes. From the reading I’ve done since I posted I think I’ll have to focus on the size of my splits and how I arrange them to try and control the burn rate. Alas.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 12, 2021)

I have a theory for the guys who are experiencing high griddle temps mid fire. I’m not convinced that you have an air leak. When you are mid fire and reading 700ish on your stove top get down next to your stove and look up through the doors. A few times I have noticed that at first glance it’s dark as could be looking into the stove but a closer look reveals crazy inferno blue flames between the top of the wood and the griddle top. Granted I fill my stove all the way up to the griddle top so not sure what you all are doing.  When this happens my stove top thermo is reading in the 700-750 range.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 13, 2021)

TravBot said:


> Oof thanks for the heads up. I saw the cardboard thing as a tip somewhere and it did definitely seem to help get things started but I’ll stop that for sure.
> 
> It is a fixed rate unfortunately. The only “adjustment” is there’s a startup timer that basically opens up an airway and then closes it when the timer finishes. From the reading I’ve done since I posted I think I’ll have to focus on the size of my splits and how I arrange them to try and control the burn rate. Alas.


There’s some diy treads on making fire starters here somewhere in this forum. In the past I would just buy a big box of fatwood from plow & hearth.  Now I just use all the scraps from splitting wood. I also peel off all the splinters and stringy stuff from my firewood as I bring it into the house.


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 13, 2021)

NewGuy132 said:


> Is there an easy way to tell what is steam and what is smoke? I’m burning my flexburn for the first time this week  I have the cat package and it is in the operation zone.  I’m getting light smoke/steam out of my chimney with the cat engaged.  I’m burning biobricks so I wouldn’t think that there is much moisture in them.
> View attachment 283887


 this looks like a clean burn.. clean burns look white ish and disappears quickly.. smoke is darker thicker


----------



## Lac a Webber (Nov 13, 2021)

Hi folks.  Thinking of getting a fan kit for my encore 2040 cat c.  The vc fan seems kind of expensive.  My question is:  Are fan kits specific for each stove.  Do I have to get a vc fan?   If not does anyone have any recommendations?


----------



## THenney (Nov 14, 2021)

Hi all! My name's Tim. I wanted to introduce myself and my stove and say thank-you. I have a Defiant 1975-CAT-C we purchased it new last spring and had it professionally installed. I've included a picture of the install. It was put in with more than the minimum clearances, but sometimes the walls got kind of warm, so we installed the tin siding on metal stud spacers for a little extra margin since the walls still got hot sometimes and there is a window really close to the stove too.  You all greatly reduced my learning curve hence my thanks.

For reference we live near Omaha, NE. Our house was built in 1928 and has no insulation in the walls but a bunch on the ceiling. It is about 2000 sq. ft. when the basement, main floor and attic are combined. So far the stove is doing an excellent job keeping the house a comfortable temperature. I've been getting along pretty well with it thanks to the emphasis on wood quality on here, some people's stove operation flow charts have been extremely helpful as well, and other miscellaneous insights that I have read that have helped me think correctly about stove operation.

Thanks all and happy heating!


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 15, 2021)

THenney said:


> Hi all! My name's Tim. I wanted to introduce myself and my stove and say thank-you. I have a Defiant 1975-CAT-C we purchased it new last spring and had it professionally installed. I've included a picture of the install. It was put in with more than the minimum clearances, but sometimes the walls got kind of warm, so we installed the tin siding on metal stud spacers for a little extra margin since the walls still got hot sometimes and there is a window really close to the stove too.  You all greatly reduced my learning curve hence my thanks.
> 
> For reference we live near Omaha, NE. Our house was built in 1928 and has no insulation in the walls but a bunch on the ceiling. It is about 2000 sq. ft. when the basement, main floor and attic are combined. So far the stove is doing an excellent job keeping the house a comfortable temperature. I've been getting along pretty well with it thanks to the emphasis on wood quality on here, some people's stove operation flow charts have been extremely helpful as well, and other miscellaneous insights that I have read that have helped me think correctly about stove operation.
> 
> ...


Do you have the rear heat shield on the stove?


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## THenney (Nov 15, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Do you have the rear heat shield on the stove?


Yes, the heat shield seems to work very well. I don't think it is really even an option not too. I'm pretty sure it was already installed when the stove was delivered.

The hot spots were actually straight out from the sides, and we're never dangerously hot, but given 100 year old framing and the widow we decided that having a little more margin wouldn't hurt anything. It technically wouldn't work for reducing clearances because the sheet metal isn't thick enough, but I can run my hand up behind to the formerly hot place which is now cool to the touch. In fact the tin, while closer to the stove, never has gotten as hot as the wall used to.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 19, 2021)

Welp this is my sign.  Tomorrow when the stove cools down I am going to be closing the secondary flap for good.  This is ridiculous.  Wish me luck.


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## Diabel (Nov 19, 2021)

A bit on a high side. Seal it with aluminum foil.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 19, 2021)

Diabel said:


> A bit on a high side. Seal it with aluminum foil.


How do you mean?  The secondary flap, or are you talking about the epa holes?


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## Diabel (Nov 19, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> How do you mean?  The secondary flap, or are you talking about the epa holes?


Secondary flap. Remove the screw, let it drop, seal with aluminum foil. Did it 3yrs ago and it works.


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## ajayabb (Nov 19, 2021)

That temp is definitely cooking.   I would cover up the secondary air with some foil tape


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## Diabel (Nov 19, 2021)

Sure it is not EPA approved, but it works. VC engineers…..you suck (Corey you are in sales right…..).


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## begreen (Nov 19, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Sure it is not EPA approved, but it works. VC engineers…..you suck (Corey you are in sales right…..).


Corey is a combustion engineer for HHT, but the Encore design was before he worked there I believe.


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## Diabel (Nov 19, 2021)

begreen said:


> Corey is a combustion engineer for HHT, but the Encore design was before he worked there I believe.


I stand corrected.Thank you


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## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 20, 2021)

Starting to have regular fires now.  Iv been enjoying sitting in front of my fire. This is such a pretty stove and it does heat so well.  Im looking forward to another burning season.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 20, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Secondary flap. Remove the screw, let it drop, seal with aluminum foil. Did it 3yrs ago and it works.


So remove the pulley.  Remove flap screw.  Insert layer of foil.  Reinsert flap screw.

Do I have this correct?


----------



## Diabel (Nov 20, 2021)

Like this. It does not have to be waterproof.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 20, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Like this. It does not have to be waterproof.
> 
> View attachment 285859


Can I use this?  Does it have to be more heat resistant?


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## Diabel (Nov 20, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Can I use this?  Does it have to be more heat resistant?
> 
> View attachment 285860


It should work. Just check once in a while to see if it is still sticking. It is aluminum right? Not plastic


----------



## Jimmy C (Nov 20, 2021)

Diabel said:


> It should work. Just check once in a while to see if it is still sticking. It is aluminum right? Not plastic


Looks like its polypropylene actually.  I'll get some aluminum tape.


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## Diabel (Nov 20, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Looks like its polypropylene actually.  I'll get some aluminum tape.


Poly will fall off from heat


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## Jimmy C (Nov 20, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Poly will fall off from heat


So did you take the flap off, tape the hole, put the flap back on and then tape over that again?  Or just tape the opening the closed flap doesnt cover?


----------



## Diabel (Nov 20, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> So did you take the flap off, tape the hole, put the flap back on and then tape over that again?  Or just tape the opening the closed flap doesnt cover?


Tape over the metal flap.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 20, 2021)

Starting a fire now.  Will report on how it goes.  Thanks  for the help!


----------



## Reckless (Nov 21, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> Starting a fire now.  Will report on how it goes.  Thanks  for the help!
> 
> View attachment 285870


I would have sealed behind the flap with normal foil first, but that’s me. This should help you, if not you got a leak somewhere else possibly.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 21, 2021)

heating up some soup right now


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## Diabel (Nov 21, 2021)

My vc is close to my kitchen and I will often put something on the griddle top, like things that need thawing out. Works well.


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 21, 2021)

My stove is in between the kitchen and living room .. Im catching up on some football.. going to heat up some baked ziti next..


----------



## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 21, 2021)

clancey said:


> lol glad your back for your torture too.  lol ha ha.  old mrs clancey
> Have fun fixing your door...lol



If I remember correctly you got your stove installed.. did you start burning yet.. if so hows it going


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## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 21, 2021)

Ok.. got the baked ziti on with meatballs sausage and country spare ribs.. thats dinner..


----------



## Rusty18 (Nov 21, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Ok.. got the baked ziti on with meatballs sausage and country spare ribs.. thats dinner..
> 
> View attachment 285971


You’re making me hungry!


----------



## wjohn (Nov 21, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Ok.. got the baked ziti on with meatballs sausage and country spare ribs.. thats dinner..


Mmm. Stuff like this is why I'm so excited to put the cooktop to use on the Aspen C3. It just needs to finally get cold here.


----------



## 56knoise (Nov 21, 2021)

Hello everyone! Over the summer I installed a new chimney and tore down our 0028 defiant encore to the bare flat panels and completely rebuilt and resealed it (It was very neglected and never worked properly). I couldn't have done it without you guys, this place has been an incredibly useful resource. I have thermocouples with alarms on the cat, griddle and flue.

It has been running for around two months now and I'm getting the feeling something is wrong. I'm having to run fairly cold temperatures on the griddle to prevent the cat from overheating (My alarm is set for 1600 on the cat). I've had the cat exceed 1600 even with the griddle at 250. This is causing a lot of cresote buildup on the interior of the stove and glass, I've had to replace the door gasket already due to it impregnating the gasket and turning it crunchy causing the thing to leak and almost go nuclear (Along with the secondary air over-extending and opening back up)

I warm the griddle up to 400 before closing the damper but unless I keep cutting the air back the cat just gets hotter and hotter while the stove body/griddle just gets cooler and cooler. There's just no way to run this at a decent griddle/stove body temp without the cat constantly climbing.

I can't find anyone else who has this issue, it seems like you guys have issues with the griddle becoming too hot if anything. It's interfering with keeping the house warm. On the plus side there is very little creosote buildup in the chimney, it has stayed very clean.

EPA holes are unplugged and secondary air inlet appears to function properly. How do I fix this?


----------



## dmccoole (Nov 22, 2021)

Newbie to hearth.com.  Been burning wood for 30 years on a Noble woodstove.  After many reviews and reading all the threads here, I ordered a VC Encore at the end of May and it was finally delivered and installed last week.  Sunday I did 2 burn ins and I'm doing the third right now.  It's a beautiful woodstove!


----------



## Rusty18 (Nov 22, 2021)

dmccoole said:


> Newbie to hearth.com.  Been burning wood for 30 years on a Noble woodstove.  After many reviews and reading all the threads here, I ordered a VC Encore at the end of May and it was finally delivered and installed last week.  Sunday I did 2 burn ins and I'm doing the third right now.  It's a beautiful woodstove!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats on the new stove!  Wish I had mine fired up this evening.


----------



## Diabel (Nov 22, 2021)

Gorgeous! You are missing warming shelves however.


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## dmccoole (Nov 22, 2021)

Warming Shelves as a Xmas present might be on order!  Is there an accessory list with descriptions online somewhere?  VC website only shows pictures of the accessories.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 23, 2021)

dmccoole said:


> Newbie to hearth.com.  Been burning wood for 30 years on a Noble woodstove.  After many reviews and reading all the threads here, I ordered a VC Encore at the end of May and it was finally delivered and installed last week.  Sunday I did 2 burn ins and I'm doing the third right now.  It's a beautiful woodstove!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



welcom.. i really enjoy mine


----------



## gthomas785 (Nov 23, 2021)

56knoise said:


> Hello everyone! Over the summer I installed a new chimney and tore down our 0028 defiant encore to the bare flat panels and completely rebuilt and resealed it (It was very neglected and never worked properly). I couldn't have done it without you guys, this place has been an incredibly useful resource. I have thermocouples with alarms on the cat, griddle and flue.
> 
> It has been running for around two months now and I'm getting the feeling something is wrong. I'm having to run fairly cold temperatures on the griddle to prevent the cat from overheating (My alarm is set for 1600 on the cat). I've had the cat exceed 1600 even with the griddle at 250. This is causing a lot of cresote buildup on the interior of the stove and glass, I've had to replace the door gasket already due to it impregnating the gasket and turning it crunchy causing the thing to leak and almost go nuclear (Along with the secondary air over-extending and opening back up)
> 
> ...


I have Intrepid II 1990, not sure how similar it is but I was having the same problem. I partially blocked my EPA holes and it made a world of difference. Just covered them with some foil tape and poked a small hole in the center of each one.

I also restricted the secondary air, not completely as some people have done on this thread but I left a small fixed gap for secondary air and disconnected it from the coil. No more cat over firing.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 23, 2021)

Some have stuffed aluminum foil in the air inlet. I disconnected the rod and removed the little washer on the pivot screw of the shutter. This allowed  me to tighten the screw so the shutter does  not move.  I also put a little round magnet just under the shutter so it can’t slip down and create a gap on the top side.  I suppose you could also seal it up with aluminum tape used with hvac.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 23, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> I have Intrepid II 1990, not sure how similar it is but I was having the same problem. I partially blocked my EPA holes and it made a world of difference. Just covered them with some foil tape and poked a small hole in the center of each one.
> 
> I also restricted the secondary air, not completely as some people have done on this thread but I left a small fixed gap for secondary air and disconnected it from the coil. No more cat over firing.


The secondary probe needs to be timed perfectly to keep it from rolling over and opening on top. This is a very challenging task. If you feel you want to keep the secondary shutter operational just put a magnet under the shutter so as the coil keeps opening the shutter can’t open up on top. I will look for a picture in my phone.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 23, 2021)

Here you can see the magnets under the shutter.  This kept the shutter from opening back up on top. Now that the shutter is disconnected the magnets are just there in case the shutter slips down. I will probably get some foil tape soon and just cover. I’m sure air is leaking in around the shutter.


----------



## gthomas785 (Nov 23, 2021)

Don't forget it's ok if _some_ air gets to the catalyst....


----------



## chrisspellman (Nov 23, 2021)

Hi all, first timer! Just put 50% down on an install of a VC Encore which is getting installed in mid December.

I've been reading about issues people were having with the catalytic feature? Was this prior to the recent redesigns for 2020 EPA standards? Or is it still an issue?

We likely won't be running it 24/7, but maybe 12h a day for a few days a week.

It sounds like we definitely want a temp gauge for the stove itself, but it sounds like people also temp the secondary burn chamber to make sure it doesn't overheat the cat?


----------



## Rusty18 (Nov 23, 2021)

chrisspellman said:


> Hi all, first timer! Just put 50% down on an install of a VC Encore which is getting installed in mid December.
> 
> I've been reading about issues people were having with the catalytic feature? Was this prior to the recent redesigns for 2020 EPA standards? Or is it still an issue?
> 
> ...


Yes, get a cat temp probe of some sort!  Most will recommend an auber digital readout with a type k thermocouple, about $87 shipped the last time I checked.  Griddle top on my stove can read 300 and the cat be >1500, without the cat probe I would have destroyed this stove the first winter I used it.  Disclaimer I knew less than nothing about wood stoves when I started so the instrumentation helped shorten the learning curve too.


----------



## dmccoole (Nov 23, 2021)

Rusty18 said:


> Yes, get a cat temp probe of some sort!  Most will recommend an auber digital readout with a type k thermocouple, about $87 shipped the last time I checked.  Griddle top on my stove can read 300 and the cat be >1500, without the cat probe I would have destroyed this stove the first winter I used it.  Disclaimer I knew less than nothing about wood stoves when I started so the instrumentation helped shorten the learning curve too.


What is the operating temp range of the cat?  What do you do when it goes over the recommended high temp?  Open the bypass?

I'm having my first real burn today and engaged the cat.  The temp on the stove has been showing 450 most of the day.

It's in the 30s today but the house is 77.  How do you all keep the stove at a lower temp so not to heat us out?  Keep the primary air on low. Small incremental loads of wood?  Don't engage the cat?


----------



## Jmorg (Nov 23, 2021)

Hey everyone, question for you seasoned VC owners…is there any way to keep my glass a little cleaner? This is my first experience with a downdraft stove and didn’t know if the “air wash” system is not as good on these as on a tube burner stove. Didn’t seem to be as bad on my tube burner. I burn mostly oak that reads about 18% on the meter. Glass stays pretty clean when the fire is hot of course, but a lot of soot/creasote when the air is cut back for overnight burns. Any suggestions or is this just a VC thing?

Other than dirty glass and a smaller ash pan than I’d like, the new Dauntless has been freaking awesome! I’ve never had a stove heat my house the way this thing does. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


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## RandyBoBandy (Nov 24, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Don't forget it's ok if _some_ air gets to the catalyst....


It gets it through the primary. Blocking off the secondary does change how you run the stove a little bit. Not much though.


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## RandyBoBandy (Nov 24, 2021)

chrisspellman said:


> Hi all, first timer! Just put 50% down on an install of a VC Encore which is getting installed in mid December.
> 
> I've been reading about issues people were having with the catalytic feature? Was this prior to the recent redesigns for 2020 EPA standards? Or is it still an issue?
> 
> ...


Correct. A cat probe is a must.


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## dmccoole (Nov 24, 2021)

Question on the Aubor AT100  thermocouple probe WRNK-191:  

What connector, mini or spade? and what length, 6" or 10"?      for Encore 2040






						K type high temperature thermocouple for heat treatment [WRNK-191] - $18.62 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry
					

Auber Instruments, Inc. K type high temperature thermocouple for heat treatment [WRNK-191] - This K type transition style high temperature thermocouple probe can be used for glass kilns and heat treatment ovens. The maximum working temperature is 1100°C (2000°F). For 6" probe, the maximum...



					www.auberins.com


----------



## Rusty18 (Nov 24, 2021)

dmccoole said:


> What is the operating temp range of the cat?  What do you do when it goes over the recommended high temp?  Open the bypass?
> 
> I'm having my first real burn today and engaged the cat.  The temp on the stove has been showing 450 most of the day.
> 
> It's in the 30s today but the house is 77.  How do you all keep the stove at a lower temp so not to heat us out?  Keep the primary air on low. Small incremental loads of wood?  Don't engage the cat?


500-1700F, just off the top of my head.  If you have a owners manual handy it’s listed in there and other places on here.  I don’t think they can “run” at 1700 but the occasion spike there is not catastrophic.  Over temp on the cat-the quickest way to cool it is open the bypass but that sends the heat up your stack (keep an eye in stack temp) and will probably make the fire in the main box bigger/hotter which will make more smoke to feed the cat when you close the bypass making for a vicious cycle.  

The two things I’ve found that makes the most difference on control is restricted secondary air flow and bigger splits.  

When it’s 40 outside I load the stove for a top down start and a full load of wood, when it’s gone I don’t reload or I start opening windows.  

I try to run cat as much as possible, more efficient, less pollution, and no one can smell smoke.

On stove top temp make sure and verify the bimetallic mag mount units.  I have 3 that read 100 off from the actual temp.  And I’ll get a pic of the thermocouple connector but I think it’s the mini.  6” or 10” will work but the 10” will prevent you from re installing a small heat shield on the back. 
My standard disclaimer, I’ve been at this 3 years there are others here that I learned from.  Old posts cover this in a lot better detail than I can provide.


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## Rusty18 (Nov 24, 2021)

dmccoole said:


> Question on the Aubor AT100  thermocouple probe WRNK-191:
> 
> What connector, mini or spade? and what length, 6" or 10"?      for Encore 2040
> 
> ...


Mini connector and either length, 6” will work better but I think the 10” is a few dollars cheaper?  Mine has the 10”.


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## dmccoole (Nov 24, 2021)

Thank you!  I've been searching but quite a few posts only mention pieces of the info.


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## gthomas785 (Nov 24, 2021)

dmccoole said:


> Question on the Aubor AT100  thermocouple probe WRNK-191:
> 
> What connector, mini or spade? and what length, 6" or 10"?      for Encore 2040
> 
> ...


I bought the AT100 and probe separately, and I ended up having to take the mini connector off and wire the thermocouple directly to the little green connector that comes with the AT100. Not a big deal, but I thought it was odd that the basic AT100 does not take a mini thermocouple connector.


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## Rusty18 (Nov 24, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> I bought the AT100 and probe separately, and I ended up having to take the mini connector off and wire the thermocouple directly to the little green connector that comes with the AT100. Not a big deal, but I thought it was odd that the basic AT100 does not take a mini thermocouple connector.


I stand corrected, mine has a terminal strip too.  Get the cheapest end possible cause you will probably be taking it off.  I thought mine took the mini.


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## dmccoole (Nov 24, 2021)

AT100 and WRNK-191 are ordered!  Thank you for the help!


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## Rusty18 (Nov 24, 2021)

dmccoole said:


> AT100 and WRNK-191 are ordered!  Thank you for the help!


If adding a new hole in your refractor for the probe remember use a drill bit but no drill!  Turn it with your fingers, that stuff is like soft drywall.   If upgrading an already existing probe it will just use the same hole.


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## Lac a Webber (Nov 24, 2021)

Rusty18 said:


> If adding a new hole in your refractor for the probe remember use a drill bit but no drill! Turn it with your fingers, that stuff is like soft drywall. If upgrading an already existing probe it will just use the same hole.


Good advice!! I installed my probe on my brand new encore 4 days ago and even when I gently poked the probe through it made a chunk the size of a dime and thickness of 2 dimes (roughly) fall off the inside.  No mention in the manual to be careful of this!!


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## Lac a Webber (Nov 24, 2021)

Other than that the install went well. It's a heavy stove! Nothing that a hand truck and a couple of car jacks
with a 2 by 8 couldn't fix.  Yes I got warming racks but they messed up the order and only one came in. 




Your browser is not able to display this video.


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## RandyBoBandy (Nov 24, 2021)

dmccoole said:


> What is the operating temp range of the cat?  What do you do when it goes over the recommended high temp?  Open the bypass?
> 
> I'm having my first real burn today and engaged the cat.  The temp on the stove has been showing 450 most of the day.
> 
> It's in the 30s today but the house is 77.  How do you all keep the stove at a lower temp so not to heat us out?  Keep the primary air on low. Small incremental loads of wood?  Don't engage the cat?


I like to keep the cat between 1200-1450. I have my alarm set to 1550. If you are hitting 1700 on the regular than you will be replacing a lot of cats. I think the coating on the cat starts to deteriorate around 1600. In this shoulder season weather smaller fires will keep the house tolerable. This in turn means you are splitting a lot kindling and starting a lot of fires, however, your glass will be cleaner and your flue cleaner as well. I do admit though that I will fill the stove half way and turn it way down once the cat is up to temp. This will give me enough coals for the evening fire. If it gets to hot in the house you can always open the windows and dump some heat.


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 24, 2021)

Lac a Webber said:


> Good advice!! I installed my probe on my brand new encore 4 days ago and even when I gently poked the probe through it made a chunk the size of a dime and thickness of 2 dimes (roughly) fall off the inside.  No mention in the manual to be careful of this!!


Oops. Yes definitely use a light twisting motion with your fingers and drill the hole.  It’s a 1/4” bit as well.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 25, 2021)

Update since sealing off the secondary air:

WOW.  This is exactly what I needed.  My cat temps peak around 1450 and are usually cruising around 1300 - 1350.  I am also getting at least 2 hours more on each burn time.  It seems like the coals last much longer for some reason.  I have had a couple spikes where temp went up to around 1600, but hardly over.  In the past, these spikes would likely show temps around 1750.  What surprises me the most is how little I have had to change running the stove.  I can still shut down primary just as quickly as before,  it just has more effect on the cat temps.  I was worried about stalling the cat by not leaving air open long enough but I have not had any sort of problems in this area.

Thanks for the help all.


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## Rusty18 (Nov 25, 2021)

Update since sealing off the secondary air:


Jimmy C said:


> WOW.  This is exactly what I needed.  My cat temps peak around 1450 and are usually cruising around 1300 - 1350.  I am also getting at least 2 hours more on each burn time.  It seems like the coals last much longer for some reason.  I have had a couple spikes where temp went up to around 1600, but hardly over.  In the past, these spikes would likely show temps around 1750.  What surprises me the most is how little I have had to change running the stove.  I can still shut down primary just as quickly as before,  it just has more effect on the cat temps.  I was worried about stalling the cat by not leaving air open long enough but I have not had any sort of problems in this area.
> 
> Thanks for the help all.


The biggest difference I noticed (other than no nuclear cat) was outside.  Still no smoke out the chimney but I can smell wood smoke smell when the wind is blowing right.  Before there was no smell outside.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 25, 2021)

Rusty18 said:


> Update since sealing off the secondary air:
> 
> The biggest difference I noticed (other than no nuclear cat) was outside.  Still no smoke out the chimney but I can smell wood smoke smell when the wind is blowing right.  Before there was no smell outside.


Definitely agree with this.  I even noticed more smoke than usual during some of the burns, but the cat is at temps around 1300.  Not sure if this is a bad sign but if it keeps me from destroying the CAT, its definitely the better option.


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## 56knoise (Nov 25, 2021)

Blocking off the secondary air really helped, I cranked down on the pivot screw so it can't move and now I can now have flame in the firebox without the cat overheating. I noticed before I did this that I could hear air sucking around the metal flapper even when the automatic thermostat closed it. Before the stovetop would be in the low 300's with a cat temp like this:


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## Reckless (Nov 26, 2021)

56knoise said:


> Blocking off the secondary air really helped, I cranked down on the pivot screw so it can't move and now I can now have flame in the firebox without the cat overheating. I noticed before I did this that I could hear air sucking around the metal flapper even when the automatic thermostat closed it. Before the stovetop would be in the low 300's with a cat temp like this:
> View attachment 286384


Which therm you using? Wife’s been complaining about seeing the AT100.


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## Rusty18 (Nov 26, 2021)

So this will be my public service announcement for the day.  If you let the wires touch at the connector that will be your new reference point, not the probe under the cat.  
I though I had major cat problems but it was just an issue with twisted wire.


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## ThisWas (Nov 26, 2021)

I never ran my Resolute stove when my grandchildren came to visit, but now that they're older and more responsible I want to be able to have a fire and also provide a margin of safety, so I bought for my new Dauntless a pair of Pleasant Hearth Classic Fireplace Screens and a set of four Lift Off Detachable Stainless Steel Hinges to connect the two screens. This only protects against an accidental stumble - a determined child can still reach the hot stovepipe and stove top. 

Of course this works only for a top-loading stove like the Dauntless. The stove controls are accessible inside the screens. I put the screens away when the little people go home.

P.S. When I bought the Dauntless I also bought an infrared thermometer gun which tells me that the old Rutland thermometer has outlived its useful life.


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## SJSoz (Nov 26, 2021)

I'm hoping for some help with my VC Dauntless. I've had it for a little over a year and I've had many woodstoves before this one but I just can't seem to get it running right. Despite almost closing off the air intake the stove always seems to get into a state of overfiring +650 degrees. Even with the air intake almost off and the damper closed the stove still runs too hot. In addition no matter how I set the air the front glass is completely black after only a few hours. And it is almost impossible to clean. I have good quality kiln dried wood. I watch the stove for at least the first hour trying to keep the heat down to 500-600. But whatever I do it ends up over-firing. I cannot figure out what is going on. Any ideas? Thanks!


----------



## RandyBoBandy (Nov 26, 2021)

Rusty18 said:


> View attachment 286398
> 
> So this will be my public service announcement for the day.  If you let the wires touch at the connector that will be your new reference point, not the probe under the cat.
> I though I had major cat problems but it was just an issue with twisted wire.


Correct. You will get all sort of funky readings if the wires are touching or not tight in the connector.


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## bert670 (Nov 26, 2021)

ThisWas said:


> I never ran my Resolute stove when my grandchildren came to visit, but now that they're older and more responsible I want to be able to have a fire and also provide a margin of safety, so I bought for my new Dauntless a pair of Pleasant Hearth Classic Fireplace Screens and a set of four Lift Off Detachable Stainless Steel Hinges to connect the two screens. This only protects against an accidental stumble - a determined child can still reach the hot stovepipe and stove top.
> 
> Of course this works only for a top-loading stove like the Dauntless. The stove controls are accessible inside the screens. I put the screens away when the little people go home.
> 
> ...


Can you post a link to the screens? I'm having a Dauntless installed in my living room and that looks like a good set up to keep my 18 mo old son away.


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## ajayabb (Nov 26, 2021)

SJSoz said:


> I'm hoping for some help with my VC Dauntless. I've had it for a little over a year and I've had many woodstoves before this one but I just can't seem to get it running right. Despite almost closing off the air intake the stove always seems to get into a state of overfiring +650 degrees. Even with the air intake almost off and the damper closed the stove still runs too hot. In addition no matter how I set the air the front glass is completely black after only a few hours. And it is almost impossible to clean. I have good quality kiln dried wood. I watch the stove for at least the first hour trying to keep the heat down to 500-600. But whatever I do it ends up over-firing. I cannot figure out what is going on. Any ideas? Thanks!


You must have an air leak somewhere. Now the tough part is trying to locate it.  I would start with making sure the gaskets are all in good shape.  You can do the dollar bill test to help check your gasket seals.


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## ThisWas (Nov 26, 2021)

bert670 said:


> Can you post a link to the screens? I'm having a Dauntless installed in my living room and that looks like a good set up to keep my 18 mo old son away.


I had a bad experience 30+ years ago with a child the age of your son who crawled behind my single fireplace screen, which is why I wanted a double screen for my new stove. My daughter touched the stove with one finger only, and her finger healed quickly - I was lucky.
I worry that your 18-month-old may be too young and too fast to be near a hot stove; my grandchildren are now 3-5 years old and can follow instructions.
You may want a bigger screen mounted securely to the wall... my fasteners weren't as secure as I thought, 30 years ago.

Pleasant Hearth Classic Fireplace Screen, Black 
Amazon product (as of now you need to click on a link to buy from vendors other than Amazon)

LC LICTOP 2.5 inch 3 Hole Flag Hinge Lift Off Detachable Stainless Steel Hinges 4 Pcs 
Amazon product
The screws supplied were too long; I went to my local hardware store and bought 24 flat-head sheet metal screws, 3/8" long.

I marked hinge positions on each screen with a pencil and used a metal punch to dimple the metal before drilling.
If you go with a lift-off hinge you want to make sure one screen gets all the hinge halves with pins facing up so that the other screen can be dropped onto it.


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## bert670 (Nov 26, 2021)

Thanks, the primary issue with a direct wall mount screen is that I have a 6" high by 4" deep sill behind where the stove will be. I was thinking about bringing a screen to a welding shop and having them cut something out to my dimensions so I can secure it around the sill. Appreciate your input.

How are you liking the Dauntless?


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## Jmorg (Nov 26, 2021)

SJSoz said:


> I'm hoping for some help with my VC Dauntless. I've had it for a little over a year and I've had many woodstoves before this one but I just can't seem to get it running right. Despite almost closing off the air intake the stove always seems to get into a state of overfiring +650 degrees. Even with the air intake almost off and the damper closed the stove still runs too hot. In addition no matter how I set the air the front glass is completely black after only a few hours. And it is almost impossible to clean. I have good quality kiln dried wood. I watch the stove for at least the first hour trying to keep the heat down to 500-600. But whatever I do it ends up over-firing. I cannot figure out what is going on. Any ideas? Thanks!


I have a Dauntless…I have not had issues with overfiring, but the glass does seem to get dirty easily. Maybe check the ash pan door and make sure it’s got a good seal. That seems to be an issue with this particular stove. Hopefully it’s just a simple fix…try lighting a lighter and running the flame along all the doors to see if your gaskets are tight. If there’s a leak it will suck the flame in. Good luck!


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## 56knoise (Nov 26, 2021)

Reckless said:


> Which therm you using? Wife’s been complaining about seeing the AT100.


I built it myself with an ESP32 microcontroller and four MAX31855 thermocouple amplifiers with thermocouples from auber. I couldn't find anybody selling what I wanted. It connects to my wifi so I can remotely check on the temperatures on a computer or my phone while I'm away and graphs everything. The button at the bottom silences the alarms for 20 seconds and the display blinks to show which probe is overtemperature. I don't have a fourth thermocouple hooked up to it right now so I just made it display 'wood'. I was thinking of changing it so it scrolls 'feed me' or something when the temperature drops.


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## Jimmy C (Nov 27, 2021)

56knoise said:


> I built it myself with an ESP32 microcontroller and four MAX31855 thermocouple amplifiers with thermocouples from auber. I couldn't find anybody selling what I wanted. It connects to my wifi so I can remotely check on the temperatures on a computer or my phone while I'm away and graphs everything. The button at the bottom silences the alarms for 20 seconds and the display blinks to show which probe is overtemperature. I don't have a fourth thermocouple hooked up to it right now so I just made it display 'wood'. I was thinking of changing it so it scrolls 'feed me' or something when the temperature drops.
> View attachment 286468


You should sell these


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## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 27, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> You should sell these


or post how you did it  For the technically challenged like myself


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## 56knoise (Nov 29, 2021)

Jimmy C said:


> You should sell these





Woodsplitter67 said:


> or post how you did it  For the technically challenged like myself


I would be happy to share the code and specifics, I downloaded KiCad a few days ago because I was considering have some legitimate circuit boards made. I just put it together with what I had laying around + a 3d printed case so it's kind of ghetto and bigger than it needs to be. I'm using arduio's IOT cloud service which is free because I'm using only a few variables.


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## gthomas785 (Nov 30, 2021)

Current mood:


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## RandyBoBandy (Nov 30, 2021)

gthomas785 said:


> Current mood:
> View attachment 286748


After sitting in a plow truck for a total of 20 hours between Sunday and today, that’s exactly how I feel.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Nov 30, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> After sitting in a plow truck for a total of 20 hours between Sunday and today, that’s exactly how I feel.


dude.. you got snow.. Im just starting to get the gear together.. were still in clean ups..  I still have to clean up about 3 million sqft of grass.. I have 4 irrigation systems to install  40k to lay in sod and grade.. I start planting 150 street trees friday and 70k of hydroseeding  and grading all before Christmas..  The thought of snow makes me want to throw up in my mouth..  I do like the white stuff but right now it would be to stressful..


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## RandyBoBandy (Nov 30, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> dude.. you got snow.. Im just starting to get the gear together.. were still in clean ups..  I still have to clean up about 3 million sqft of grass.. I have 4 irrigation systems to install  40k to lay in sod and grade.. I start planting 150 street trees friday and 70k of hydroseeding  and grading all before Christmas..  The thought of snow makes me want to throw up in my mouth..  I do like the white stuff but right now it would be to stressful..


Damn Sam. That’s a metric $@it ton of work to do in 23 days.  I hope you have an army of workers.   We were mud fall clean up when the skies decided to drop snow on us. Kind of bummed actually. I feel like I’m going to lose out on some easy leaf vacuum money. At least I did have the plow on the truck already. I got caught slacking last year and almost had to replace a hydro motor on the plow the night before the first storm. Lucky me , a few taps with a ball peen hammer got it working again. Good luck to you sir. I don’t envy the stress you must have at the moment.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 1, 2021)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Damn Sam. That’s a metric $@it ton of work to do in 23 days.  I hope you have an army of workers.   We were mud fall clean up when the skies decided to drop snow on us. Kind of bummed actually. I feel like I’m going to lose out on some easy leaf vacuum money. At least I did have the plow on the truck already. I got caught slacking last year and almost had to replace a hydro motor on the plow the night before the first storm. Lucky me , a few taps with a ball peen hammer got it working again. Good luck to you sir. I don’t envy the stress you must have at the moment.



We will move through it. I just couldn't handle the snow portion thrown in.. Couple years and im done for good.. Were working 6 days a week this month..


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## RandyBoBandy (Dec 1, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> We will move through it. I just couldn't handle the snow portion thrown in.. Couple years and im done for good.. Were working 6 days a week this month..


More power to you. I lost motivation to pound the pavement 6days a week about a month ago. It just seems to rain more days than it doesn’t and now the snow is starting to fly. Tired of slopping around in the mud.


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## dmccoole (Dec 5, 2021)

I have the AT100 and the 6" WRNK-191 wired and connected.  Before I hand drill with a 1/4" bit the hole into the plug, what do you use to fasten the probe to the stove so it stays put?


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 5, 2021)

my stove came with the bimetal probe so mine is fastened to the factory bracket. I would make a bracket to screw to the heat shield before you drill


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## dmccoole (Dec 10, 2021)

Has anyone tried to lengthen the wire to the WRNK-191?   Would that effect the accuracy?  I have a  large stone fireplace and I'd like to run the wire across the base and up the side of the fireplace(mostly out of site) to locate the AT100 another 3-4 feet from where it currently ends.


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## Rusty18 (Dec 10, 2021)

You can but may affect accuracy.  Best to use type k thermocouple wire for the extension but I doubt you’ll have any.  Next best would be shielded pair of copper wire, also not likely to have that laying around.  Least best is to use regular stranded copper wire.  The thermocouple couple generates a mV signal so adding in more junctions and unshielded wire can cause error.  All of that being said we have 1000’ runs of romex being used for thermocouple extension wire at work and still get +\- 5C accuracy.  Make sure your wires do not touch where you do your splice.  If you do it’ll read room temp not stove temp like mine did when they got twisted at the display.


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## RandyBoBandy (Dec 10, 2021)

I believe the AT100 can be calibrated as well. If you end up doing it please post your results. I also wish the display was a little farther away from the hearth.


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## TravBot (Dec 17, 2021)

It has become clear who likes our new stove the most in this household 😂


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## Dobish (Dec 20, 2021)

Just wanted to say hi, its been a while! we have been roasty and toasty, but it has been quite warm this year. Bring on the snow!


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## RandyBoBandy (Dec 21, 2021)

Yes bring on the snow. It’s been raining here more than anything which is annoying as all hell.  One day of rain this time of year makes it extremely difficult to make money at all. Mud during the day and frozen mud by morning. It’s get old having to clean out tracks on equipment constantly so they don’t freeze up. At least if it snowed I could make money pushing it.  On the brighter side the house is toasty and the stove is working great. Glass and cap are staying cleaner. Just have to fine the right moment to give the stove a coat of paint.


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## Jimmy C (Dec 22, 2021)

*For those who have sealed up the secondary air:*

Anyone ever see the CAT temps start dropping extremely quickly when it should be rising or stagnant?  This usually correlates with much more smoke then normal coming out of the chimney.  I am assuming the CAT is getting starved for air and stalling or something like that.  It usually drops to the 1100s before slowly climbing back up to the 1200s and eventually settling in the 1300s again.  I'm worried I am causing other problems, ones that could be worse than the over-firing of the CAT.  Any one have any thoughts on this or run into a similar scenario?  

Also,  MERRY CHRISTMAS!


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## Diabel (Dec 22, 2021)

I would not call temps dropping extremely quickly. Once I plugged the secondary air, the behavior of the stove changed a bit for sure. I did notice more smoke/steam from the stack for sure. The cat temp definitely will go up and down few times in the burn cycle. Between 1000 and 1400 would be correct. My BK cat temp will fluctuate many more times during the burn and I will also see plume out the pipe at times during the cycle.


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## WhatDayJob (Dec 29, 2021)

Hi folks. Posting here for advice on my VC Encore stove. Let me know if it should go somewhere else.

Background:

House is 2400 square feet, single story ranch
I live at 10k feet, it's currently...9° outside
Original wing (right side of house) build in 1979, Living room/bedroom added in 1996
House has forced air in all rooms
Gas stove (2) in living room that vents to outside on wall
Wood fireplace (3) in the shared wall between dining room and office
Living room has a vaulted ceiling, everything else is about 8' ceilings
Chimney pipes swept in October
This is the first winter with the stove
The pipe has one 90° turn right after the thimble, then runs vertically for about six feet in the cleanout closet, passes into the attic, then runs another 10-12 feet in the attic before exiting the roof
Burning lodgepole pine

Pictures and layout

I'm about to give up on this stove. It worked fine in the fall, when temps were in the 40s, but lately it hasn't been burning well. I've tried most of the solutions I've found on these forums, preheating the pipe, opening windows, sealing leaks, etc.

It's an old stove that hasn't been well-maintained, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a lost cause, but I'd love to get the opinion of more experienced owners. It seems like it won't be cost-effective to buy replacement parts.

Is it possible to run it (in a less efficient mode obviously) without a working catalyst and a crap damper? I'm only looking to burn during the day—at night I'll let the forced air or electrical heat the house.

Anything else I should be doing to make it draw better? My partner is pretty sick of the campfire smell. It's entirely possible that this is still just user error.


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## clancey (Dec 29, 2021)

What a wonderful thread addition and I think you should start your very own thread in the right category--maybe multiple stoves or something..I am not experienced with stoves for I just started myself to light my wood stove but your variety is quite something for one home...Your at very high attitude in colorado I imagine and do you have a wood shed to keep your wood dry --need to burn dry wood...I bet you know that--lol...I can just suggest maybe a air filter--a good one for your partner but others I hope join the thread to sort out your problem they have much more experience with these type of things...With all your choices of stoves which one do you like--is it the cat one?..maybe if you could consolidate somehow and have just one stove--just suggestion here --nothing that much in the way of experience that I can offer but someone will eventually come on to help you...I live in CO too welcome to the forum...old mrs clancey


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 29, 2021)

WhatDayJob said:


> Hi folks. Posting here for advice on my VC stove. Let me know if it should go somewhere else.
> 
> Background:
> 
> ...



Hi.. so all i got out of this was its an old stove that is not running well, Its probably a better idea to tell us  what you think is wrong with the stove and how its running, the model of the stove would be a good starting point, is it not drafting. what is the moisture content of the wood your burning.. do you have a moisture meter and do you know how to check the moisture content of the wood properly. do you not get enough heat, cant get a fire established.. a detailed description of what is wrong...


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## Diabel (Dec 29, 2021)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Hi.. so all i got out of this was its an old stove that is not running well, Its probably a better idea to tell us  what you think is wrong with the stove and how its running, the model of the stove would be a good starting point, is it not drafting. what is the moisture content of the wood your burning.. do you have a moisture meter and do you know how to check the moisture content of the wood properly. do you not get enough heat, cant get a fire established.. a detailed description of what is wrong...


^^^^^^ what he said


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## WhatDayJob (Dec 29, 2021)

Hah, thanks everyone. I can't believe I missed adding the model. Still getting the hang of forums.

It's a 1986 VC 0028 Encore, as Diabel sorted out for me earlier. 

Moisture meter - Don't have one yet, but I'm burning pine that's been on the property and under cover for at least a year.  Recommendations for a good model?

It ran fine this fall, but lately with the lower temps, we've been getting a strong campfire smell while running it.

Here's what happened last time, best I can remember:

Left the doors open for about an hour and put a small heat source in the firebox to help pre-heat the pipe. House was at 65°, firebox was high 70s when I started the fire. I think it was about 25-30° outside. Ash tray and firebox were cleaned out prior.
Turned off the forced air, gas stove, and appliances to hopefully avoid drawing a suction. Shut off unused rooms. 
Started a small kindling fire, slowly added small bits to keep it going. Seemed to burn ok. 
Added larger chunks (still learning terminology), about 1-2 inches in diameter. 
Allowed the griddle to get to about 450 on an IR thermometer.
Went to add 3-4"+ chunks over a layer of smaller bits to help it catch.
Burned ok for a bit, then seemed like it was dying out. Couldn't maintain (dropped to 350 in an hour), and gave the room a smokey smell. Fully opened exterior doors just to clear the smell.
Left it to burn out since I didn't see any other option.
I'm wide open to suggestions.  I'll have the house to myself tomorrow, so I could test out some theories if anyone can point out some obvious mistakes I'm making.

Thanks again.


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## Diabel (Dec 29, 2021)

Oh yes, I remember you asking about replacement parts for an old VC 0028. I thought you decided not to spend ~ 800 of replacement parts plus hours of your free labor/sweat/bloody knuckles……


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## WhatDayJob (Dec 29, 2021)

Diabel said:


> Oh yes, I remember you asking about replacement parts for an old VC 0028. I thought you decided not to spend ~ 800 of replacement parts plus hours of your free labor/sweat/bloody knuckles……


Yup, my limit is gaskets and sealant. But realistically I won't be able to remove the stove until the summer, and I hate it when inanimate objects win, so I'm willing to give it another shot. 

I'm also pretty inexperienced, so I'm not discounting the fact that I could just be doing things really wrong.


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## Diabel (Dec 29, 2021)

WhatDayJob said:


> Yup, my limit is gaskets and sealant. But realistically I won't be able to remove the stove until the summer, and I hate it when inanimate objects win, so I'm willing to give it another shot.
> 
> I'm also pretty inexperienced, so I'm not discounting the fact that I could just be doing things really wrong.


All good.

One thing you are doing correct in the process of figuring out why the stove temp goes down while your are into the burn is eliminating the competing appliances that need for  indoor air. The symptoms of your stove behaviour is unseasoned fuel and dead or clogged cat or blocked air channels right past the refractory box.


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## WhatDayJob (Dec 29, 2021)

Diabel said:


> All good.
> 
> One thing you are doing correct in the process of figuring out why the stove temp goes down while your are into the burn is eliminating the competing appliances that need for  indoor air. The symptoms of your stove behaviour is unseasoned fuel and dead or clogged cat or blocked air channels right past the refractory box.


Thanks. I spent a bit of time vacuuming out all of the internal ash that I could, including when I pulled the cat for cleaning. Basically if I could fit the nozzle in it, I hoovered it.

What's the best way to inspect the spaces around the refactory box? Pull the firebreak plates? Something I noticed when I had the rear heat shield off—the little air inlet door seemed to be stuck open, regardless of the position of the control lever.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Dec 29, 2021)

The thing that I am keying in on and I could be wrong is that the stove is running ok until you add the larger wood and then your running i to isseus. That totally sounds like a wood issue. Id get an inexpensive moisture meter off Amazon. its doesn't have to be the best.. middle of the road model will do.. Split open one of the splits and check the moisture on the freshly split face with pins going with the grain. DO NOT CHECK ON THE OUTSIDE OR END that is the driest area.. if the wood is wet its wet in the middle. You should not be struggling with burning pine in your stove.. pine goes up really quick when seasoned so I think part of your issue is the wood.. I am not super  Familiar with your stove so Ill let someone else guide you through that. I can say this.. My stove and everyone else who runs a VC stove like to keep ash in the bottom of the stove. When I clean mine every so often I dont clean all the ash out. I leave a layer of ash at the bottom of the stove always.


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## RandyBoBandy (Dec 29, 2021)

WhatDayJob said:


> Thanks. I spent a bit of time vacuuming out all of the internal ash that I could, including when I pulled the cat for cleaning. Basically if I could fit the nozzle in it, I hoovered it.
> 
> What's the best way to inspect the spaces around the refactory box? Pull the firebreak plates? Something I noticed when I had the rear heat shield off—the little air inlet door seemed to be stuck open, regardless of the position of the control lever.


Is it possible the “little air inlet door” is the secondary air shutter?  This will not move with the primary air control. It’s run by a probe in the refractory box. I’m going with poor fuel or a clogged cap or a flue that needs cleaning. I would inspect the flue pipe at the 90 and also inspect your cap.


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## RandyBoBandy (Dec 29, 2021)

Also with the colder temps your draw will stronger than it was in the fall. So like others said about checking your wood. Bring a piece inside for 24hrs. Then split and check MC on the freshly split face. Also check your pipe and cap.


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## Dobish (Dec 30, 2021)

I have noticed that even though pine burns hot, it will burn very quickly and will not coal up as nicely. It does sound like you have some wood issues as well. I am in colorado as well, and have had some pine that refuses to dry out, unless it is getting plenty of air flow around it. I would suggest cleaning out the chimney and looking at the moisture content. You will be surprised what you find!  The other part is to not cut down the air too quickly, and keep an eye on your temps. 

That being said, if it is an older stove that needs work, there could be a lot of issues. With a long chimney and other appliances, you are most likely fighting to get the proper air movement.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 3, 2022)

Thanks everyone. I had the chimney cleaned and inspected in October. He also installed a wire mesh wrap on the cap for animal deterrence at the same time.
Also bought a moisture meter. The first split I tested came in at 7%, which seems ridiculously dry. I don't have a ton of confidence in the meter, since the pins are already bending and the screen flickers, so more testing is needed.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 3, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Is it possible the “little air inlet door” is the secondary air shutter?  This will not move with the primary air control. It’s run by a probe in the refractory box. I’m going with poor fuel or a clogged cap or a flue that needs cleaning. I would inspect the flue pipe at the 90 and also inspect your cap.


Yeah, pretty sure it's the secondary air shutter. Centered on the back of the stove almost at the bottom, about five inches long, one tall?


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## 56knoise (Jan 3, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> I had the chimney cleaned and inspected in October. He also installed a wire mesh wrap on the cap for animal deterrence at the same time.


Get on the roof and check that mesh. It loves to clog up with soot. Same thing happened with mine. Campfire smell, very little to no draft, low temperatures. Happened after a few months of burning day and night.

My chimney was still clean but the low temperature of the mesh will allow crud to condense on it. Mine was nearly 100% clogged. I just removed it completely.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 4, 2022)

56knoise said:


> Get on the roof and check that mesh. It loves to clog up with soot. Same thing happened with mine. Campfire smell, very little to no draft, low temperatures. Happened after a few months of burning day and night.
> 
> My chimney was still clean but the low temperature of the mesh will allow crud to condense on it. Mine was nearly 100% clogged. I just removed it completely.


Thanks, that's where I'm headed next on this troubleshooting journey. We have a couple of feet of snow on the roof, so I'm working on clearing a safe path first.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 4, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> Thanks, that's where I'm headed next on this troubleshooting journey. We have a couple of feet of snow on the roof, so I'm working on clearing a safe path first.



7% is awful dry.. did you test this on the outside of the split.. or split it open and check the freshly split face


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 4, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> 7% is awful dry.. did you test this on the outside of the split.. or split it open and check the freshly split face


Left it inside for a few hours, split it, and immediately tested it, pins in the center of the split face, following the grain. It seemed low to me too, which is why I questioned the quality of the mm.


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## begreen (Jan 4, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> Left it inside for a few hours, split it, and immediately tested it, pins in the center of the split face, following the grain. It seemed low to me too, which is why I questioned the quality of the mm.


Yes, it is hard to get cabinetry and flooring wood to that dryness. Our firewood settles in around 16-18%, most likely due to our wet winters.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 4, 2022)

begreen said:


> Yes, it is hard to get cabinetry and flooring wood to that dryness. Our firewood settles in around 16-18%, most likely due to our wet winters.


I agree.. something is a miss.. I can get wood to 14/15% mc with out a kiln, after a number of years in the shed and hot summers.. 7% is pretty low..


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## moresnow (Jan 4, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> Left it inside for a few hours, split it, and immediately tested it, pins in the center of the split face, following the grain. It seemed low to me too, which is why I questioned the quality of the mm.


Where in Co are you located. Some areas have a potential for very low M/C. See this article/list for a guide to what you might expect.



			https://woodweb.com/knowledge_base_images/zp/equilibrium_moisture_content.pdf


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 5, 2022)

moresnow said:


> Where in Co are you located. Some areas have a potential for very low M/C. See this article/list for a guide to what you might expect.
> 
> 
> 
> https://woodweb.com/knowledge_base_images/zp/equilibrium_moisture_content.pdf


That's interesting, thanks. We're at 10k feet in the mountains, the closest approximation would be Grand Junction, which is 13.7% EMC. I'm guessing user error with the mm.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 5, 2022)

I drove through Grand Junction about 12 years ago. I was on my way to Hyattville Wyoming from Phoenix.  I was in the middle of nowhere following a napkin map at 2am with deer jumping over the road everywhere. Eventually I just pulled over and took a nap until the sun came up. I wasn’t about to wreck my truck with a damn deer. 
On another note I still think you need to check your cap and the horizontal section of pipe. There really isn’t a whole lot to how these stoves breathe.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 7, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I drove through Grand Junction about 12 years ago. I was on my way to Hyattville Wyoming from Phoenix.  I was in the middle of nowhere following a napkin map at 2am with deer jumping over the road everywhere. Eventually I just pulled over and took a nap until the sun came up. I wasn’t about to wreck my truck with a damn deer.
> On another note I still think you need to check your cap and the horizontal section of pipe. There really isn’t a whole lot to how these stoves breathe.


Yeah, wildlife is a real hazard out here.

So I went up on the roof today, climbed through two feet of snow, and 'lo and behold, the mesh was completely blocked out with soot. I should have trusted my instincts, but I didn't want to blame the chimney sweep. He's literally the only guy in town.

Anyhow, pulled the mesh off like you recommended, put the cap back on, and fired up another round. Stove's running like gangbusters now.

I'm kicking myself for not checking the cap sooner, but on the plus side, I've learned tons from the experience and my system's tighter than it was when I started.

Thanks for the help everyone.


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## begreen (Jan 7, 2022)

Sounds like a bit of a pain, but I'm glad you are functional again.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 7, 2022)

Yep, it's been a hassle, but worth the learning experience. I really appreciate the advice I got here—it gave me the confidence that I'd tried everything but the cap check.

Next question! This stove is old and janky. Due to a warped damper inlet, the damper won't seal completely, which I understand is needed to get the cat running properly. Is there any partial benefit/risk to shutting it anyhow? I'd say it's probably 80% closed off when the damper is in the 'fully shut' position.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 7, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> Yep, it's been a hassle, but worth the learning experience. I really appreciate the advice I got here—it gave me the confidence that I'd tried everything but the cap check.
> 
> Next question! This stove is old and janky. Due to a warped damper inlet, the damper won't seal completely, which I understand is needed to get the cat running properly. Is there any partial benefit/risk to shutting it anyhow? I'd say it's probably 80% closed off when the damper is in the 'fully shut' position.


Depending on how bad it is.. 1 your cat will not run completely as air/smoke will go up the stove pipe. 2 because smoke will go up the chimney you will be building up creosote due to the unburned fuel in the stove pipe. 3 cat temperatures will most likely be low, maybe the cat will not engage at all. Your stove may not operate well, if the cat doesn't engage your draft will be low creating a worse burn cycle. In my stove when the cats running properly 1000/1400 degrees, that  helps  keep the stove pipe warm and draft up. If your cat stalls.. so will your draft.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 10, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Depending on how bad it is.. 1 your cat will not run completely as air/smoke will go up the stove pipe. 2 because smoke will go up the chimney you will be building up creosote due to the unburned fuel in the stove pipe. 3 cat temperatures will most likely be low, maybe the cat will not engage at all. Your stove may not operate well, if the cat doesn't engage your draft will be low creating a worse burn cycle. In my stove when the cats running properly 1000/1400 degrees, that  helps  keep the stove pipe warm and draft up. If your cat stalls.. so will your draft.


Yeah, all things I'm considering. It's a really old stove, so I don't have a way of determining cat temps. There's no probe that I can see. The manual talks about using griddle temp to determine when to engage the cat. There's also that fact that this cat may be totally trashed, since it's well over a decade old.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 10, 2022)

see if you can grab a cat..


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 10, 2022)

There’s a cat probe port in the rear of the stove. If there’s never been one used then the button cap is probably still there covering the hole. What model stove is this again?


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 11, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> There’s a cat probe port in the rear of the stove. If there’s never been one used then the button cap is probably still there covering the hole. What model stove is this again?


Near as I can tell, it's a Defiant Encore 0028.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 11, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> Near as I can tell, it's a Defiant Encore 0028.


Ok so I found the manual online. The cat access panel is on the back of the stove. There’s 4 screws you need to take out. Then carefully remove the refractory cat cover.  You will probably need a couple of 1” putty knives to gently pry on the cover and cat. Take that out and inspect it.


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## Diabel (Jan 11, 2022)

0028 has a dedicated inlet for a cat probe. Just like 2550


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 11, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Ok so I found the manual online. The cat access panel is on the back of the stove. There’s 4 screws you need to take out. Then carefully remove the refractory cat cover.  You will probably need a couple of 1” putty knives to gently pry on the cover and cat. Take that out and inspect it.


Pulled the cat when I was troubleshooting the weak draft. It looks to be in pretty rough shape:


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## Diabel (Jan 11, 2022)

It does not look all broken up. But it does not mean it still works as it shoud.


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## rwh63 (Jan 11, 2022)

CVCabin said:


> Hello everyone! I’m a new owner of a basically new/barely used VC Seneca. Does anyone here have one of those?


yup!


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 11, 2022)

Diabel said:


> It does not look all broken up. But it does not mean it still works as it shoud.


Thanks. Next step would be to get a cat probe thermometer hooked into the system, eh? The stove is maintaining 5-600 pretty consistently, even with the damper as closed as it can get.
The probes that I can find online all seem to be direct-read probes. Is there any reason I couldn't use a wired probe so I wouldn't have to look behind the stove every time I wanted to check the cat temp? 
Any recommendations for probes?


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 11, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> Pulled the cat when I was troubleshooting the weak draft. It looks to be in pretty rough shape:


It doesn’t look to bad. All the cells are in tact. It looks slightly warped though. I would lightly blow it out with some air. Not compressor air but like the other side of your shop vac or keyboard duster.  Then you need to decide how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with this stove. Your cheapest way to test the cat is get an analog cat probe.  This will let you know if things are lighting off. If you think you are going to keep this stove for any period of time though, I would invest in a digital cat probe. This will be your best friend in running these VC stoves. Auber Instruments AT100 is a popular one here on the forum.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 11, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> It doesn’t look to bad. All the cells are in tact. It looks slightly warped though. I would lightly blow it out with some air. Not compressor air but like the other side of your shop vac or keyboard duster.  Then you need to decide how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with this stove. Your cheapest way to test the cat is get an analog cat probe.  This will let you know if things are lighting off. If you think you are going to keep this stove for any period of time though, I would invest in a digital cat probe. This will be your best friend in running these VC stoves. Auber Instruments AT100 is a popular one here on the forum.


Thanks Randy. I cleaned it as much as I could when I had it out of the stove. Regarding the rabbit hole...hah! I'll start with the analog probe, but I plan on using wood to heat this house for the foreseeable future, so a digital probe is probably on my Christmas list. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 11, 2022)

Just don’t put anything through the cells of the cat. Like Q tips  or anything.


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## moresnow (Jan 11, 2022)

Get a cheap mechanics mirror with the extendable/teloscopic handle. Normally available for next to nothing at a NAPA, Orielly's or similiar. Believe mine was in a bucket on the counter for $5 a piece.  Worth a try.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 11, 2022)

Diabel said:


> 0028 has a dedicated inlet for a cat probe. Just like 2550


I can't find anything in the user or service manuals about the proper length for the probe. Assuming I put on in, how do I know what the appropriate length is for an analog probe, or how far to insert a thermocouple if I go digital?


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 11, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> If you think you are going to keep this stove for any period of time though, I would invest in a digital cat probe. This will be your best friend in running these VC stoves. Auber Instruments AT100 is a popular one here on the forum.


The AT100 looks pretty affordable, but I'm lost in the weeds on which components it needs.
I'm looking at this unit: https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=279

It looks like it takes almost any kind of temperature sensor, but I'm not sure which to pick.






						K type high temp thermocouple w/ mounting adapter [WRNK-193] - $30.00 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry
					

Auber Instruments, Inc. K type high temp thermocouple w/ mounting adapter [WRNK-193] - This K type transition style high temperature thermocouple probe can be used for glass kilns and heat treatment ovens. The maximum working temperature is 1100°C (2000°F). The maximum insertion length is 3"...



					www.auberins.com
				



This one seems to be the first candidate I've found that would work, but it talks about a maximum temp on the transition area of 750 F. I suppose it's talking about the point where the probe leave the stove?


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 11, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> The AT100 looks pretty affordable, but I'm lost in the weeds on which components it needs.
> I'm looking at this unit: https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=279
> 
> It looks like it takes almost any kind of temperature sensor, but I'm not sure which to pick.
> ...


 your looking for the K type thermo coupler 6 inch.. I have the AT100 and this is what i use.. You will need to attach it to the original bi mettle temp guage bracket the stove came with or your going to need to rig one up


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 11, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> your looking for the K type thermo coupler 6 inch.. I have the AT100 and this is what i use.. You will need to attach it to the original bi mettle temp guage bracket the stove came with or your going to need to rig one up








						K Type Thermocouple w/ 6 (150 mm) Probe [WRNK-171] - $13.50 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry
					

Auber Instruments, Inc. K Type Thermocouple w/ 6 (150 mm) Probe [WRNK-171] - K type transition style thermocouple probe.   The probe is 6" (150 mm) long and 5/32" (4.0 mm) in diameter. The transition section is 0.3" in diameter and 1" long. Both tip and transition section are made of 302...



					www.auberins.com
				




This is the six inch, but the max working temp is 750. 

There's a high temp version of the probe that applicable to kilns—is that what I should be looking at? 





						K type high temp thermocouple w/ mounting adapter [WRNK-193] - $30.00 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry
					

Auber Instruments, Inc. K type high temp thermocouple w/ mounting adapter [WRNK-193] - This K type transition style high temperature thermocouple probe can be used for glass kilns and heat treatment ovens. The maximum working temperature is 1100°C (2000°F). The maximum insertion length is 3"...



					www.auberins.com


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## Diabel (Jan 11, 2022)

Make sure probe is rated for 2000*F


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 11, 2022)

It’s about 2”.  VC sells their own. You could also get a condar I believe. If you get a probe from Auber it will be 6” long. If a probe has never been installed in this stove you will have to hand drill your own hole in the refractory box. It’s super easy. Just get a 1/4” drill bit and with your fingers only gently drill a hole in the box. Did you find the button cap covering the hole in the casting?


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 11, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> K Type Thermocouple w/ 6 (150 mm) Probe [WRNK-171] - $13.50 : Auber Instruments, Inc., Temperature control solutions for home and industry
> 
> 
> Auber Instruments, Inc. K Type Thermocouple w/ 6 (150 mm) Probe [WRNK-171] - K type transition style thermocouple probe.   The probe is 6" (150 mm) long and 5/32" (4.0 mm) in diameter. The transition section is 0.3" in diameter and 1" long. Both tip and transition section are made of 302...
> ...


Wrnk -191 is what you are looking for. Along with the AT100 or At200. Most of us have the AT100


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 12, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Wrnk -191 is what you are looking for. Along with the AT100 or At200. Most of us have the AT100


Great, thanks. I haven't checked for the probe hole yet. The stove's been running consistently, and I'll have to pull off the backplate to get in to take a look. It's supposed to warm up here over the next couple days, so I'll dig into it then.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 12, 2022)

WhatDayJob said:


> Great, thanks. I haven't checked for the probe hole yet. The stove's been running consistently, and I'll have to pull off the backplate to get in to take a look. It's supposed to warm up here over the next couple days, so I'll dig into it then.


If you get the Auber probe you will have to drill a hole in your heat shield.


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## WhatDayJob (Jan 12, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> If you get the Auber probe you will have to drill a hole in your heat shield.


That's what I was thinking. Shouldn't be a problem—that's well within my ability.


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## arnermd (Jan 17, 2022)

Hello All and happy 2022.

I had an issue with the glass retainer screws rounding out (Philips drive) so I sourced a direct replacement with Torx drive so you can get a more positive grip in it.  I find the screws closes to the center of the stove tend to loosen up every couple months or so.

Last week I had the left side glass panel pop out from underneath the bracket....  stove was running hot!  I suspect I have an undersized piece of glass on the left side, there is a lot of gap around the perimeter and it should never be allowed to move so much that it pops out from under the bracket.  But I digress.....

I bought these from Bolt depot, inexpensive ( shipping was more than the fasteners).  You will need 8 of them, get a few spares.

Install was easy and seems to be performing just fine after a week of burning.

Now if I could figure out how to keep my cat temps below 1750-1800F.....


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## Diabel (Jan 17, 2022)

You can always shim the brackets with stainless steel washers. Do not over tighten….you will crack the glass. Those bolts should be stainless steel as well. As for cat temps…..time to do a stove surgery on your secondary air flapper.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 17, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Hello All and happy 2022.
> 
> I had an issue with the glass retainer screws rounding out (Philips drive) so I sourced a direct replacement with Torx drive so you can get a more positive grip in it.  I find the screws closes to the center of the stove tend to loosen up every couple months or so.
> 
> ...


half inch seems kinda long.. If your temps are that high I suspect over draft or a leak into the stove.. 17/1800 degrees the cats going to start to break up..


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 17, 2022)

How is the secondary air supplied to the cat on the 2in1?


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## arnermd (Jan 18, 2022)

All good questions / comments but I suspect you are all thinking of the older models......  I will address each comment as best as I know how....


> You can always shim the brackets with stainless steel washers.


I do not think that works on my stove.  The newer stoves do not use the flat tabs like the old ones, below are pics I found, notice the clips are shaped so it kind of spring loads the glass when you tighten up the screws.

I do agree over-torqueing could break the glass.  Need to be judicious when tightening.
The bolts are stainless, 18-8



> half inch seems kinda long..


1/2" is long for the older stoves, but with this clip 1/2" works perfect and is in fact the same length as the factory installed screws. I should have been more clear, this is for my stove (VC Defiant Model 1975 (2n1, cat / non cat)  purchased new in 2009).  I tried to cross reference to a VC part number but alas they do not show the screws in the exploded parts view.....  The key here is to use truss head screws, a regular pan head or cap is not large enough (I tried it.....does not work well)









Cat Temps: 
This posting window is not nearly large enough for all the comments I have on this topic, I will try not to turn it into one massive raging rant.....  To put it succinctly, I believe the secondary burn chamber design on these newer stoves is flawed, in particular the lack of an active secondary air control element.  I have been working this problem since the stove was new and have yet to find a solution (very frustrating).  I did notice the newer stoves have different refractory part numbers, I am wondering if they realized this design was not good and made some changes......  

Sadly VC has been of no help to me and the dealer I bought it from has gone out of business, other dealers have not been helpful.  I wish we had somebody in this forum that really knew the secondary burn design for the newer stoves.  I have studied it quite a bit over the years and I believe this design is unreliable at best, it works under certain conditions but runs away without an active control element.

 To answer you comments directly:


> time to do a stove surgery on your secondary air flapper.


If I had one I would!  But alas I do not have one......  I am a surgeon without a patient, hahaha



> If your temps are that high I suspect over draft or a leak into the stove..


Checked it many times, no significant leaks, except last week when the glass popped out from under the bracket!  I also can tell when I throttle the air all the way down there is almost zero flame in the firebox and the primary burn gets very smokey.  I suspect this overloads the secondary burn (not enough dilution air) and cat temps go to 1800+.

Draft:  I thought so too, a few years back I installed a damper in the exhaust pipe and it has not effect, open or closed.  Recently I welded up all the holes in the damper plate, so I can really shut it off....  still no effect. 



> 17/1800 degrees the cats going to start to break up..


You are correct!  I verified it several times unfortunately.  This is my fourth cat since new....  I get maybe 2-2.5 seasons and then they look like this.....  This one has been through ~2 seasons....








> How is the secondary air supplied to the cat on the 2in1?


That is the right question.  On the 2n1 there is just a series of holes / passages that bring the secondary air in in a couple different places.  Very hard to explain in words.....  Some of the air comes in around the cat, some comes in at the back of the primary burn area, near the inlet to the secondary burn chamber.  You may recall folks plugging holes (8 of them) with screws.  This helps calm things down a bit but is not a total solution (at least not for me).  There is another path on the lower left and right of the removable access  cover, blocking these slows down the stove too but gives incomplete secondary burn, not enough air.  Images below show the areas I am referring to.  Air comes in where I marked in red.











Other thoughts:
I grew up burning wood, I love the whole process, felling, bucking, splitting, stacking, loading the stove, cooking on the stove, etc....  Wood is my primary source of heat, (the thermostats in my house are off)  I burn 24/7 December through mid March, 4 cord per year, almost all ash and oak, big splits.  I have a moisture meter, typically around 15%.

There are a lot of things I like about this stove, big firebox (I do 20-22" logs), long burn times (can do an honest 8-12 hours of heat on a full load, easily restarts from coals after 12-16 hours), top load, swing out ash pan, cook top, the stove looks great and of course the warming shelves with mitten warmers is a must have... haha  I have thought about getting rid of this one and buying something else but I have yet to find one that has all these features.  I thought about getting an older encore and rebuilding it but I have 20 cord of 20-22" logs (not interested in taking 2" off 20 cord of split wood)

I believe part of the issue is some of the secondary air comes in at the bottom/back of the firebox, so it also contributes to the primary burn, not just the secondary burn.  If I recall correctly on the older models the secondary air comes directly into the primary exhaust stream, there is no way for it to reach the primary burn (unless it travels upstream, not very likely).

I also believe that the secondary burn does not get enough air with a large load, that's why the temps launch, not enough cool air to control the temp.  Smaller loads do seem to be more controllable, but burn times are shorter, obviously.  I have found forcing air with a fan into the secondary inlet drops the cat temps, unfortunately it also accelerates the primary burn so it is not sustainable but for short periods of time.

Question for you guys: Does the bimetal secondary air control on the older stoves increase the air flow or decrease it as it heats up?  I believe it increases the secondary air flow, correct?

Another unresolved issue I have had since day one....  When I burn with the cat bypassed the griddle temp will continually climb, even with the air lever fully closed (I have checked / reset the primary air damper, it is closed) I have gotten north of 650-700F.  The one time I heard from the factory (10 years ago) they said "yeah that's normal, don't leave it unattended with the secondary bypassed".  I suspect what is happening is the air is coming in through the secondary passages and driving the primary burn when bypassed.  If I am correct that the older models secondary air flapper would be closed (cat is cold) then all the air has to come through the primary flapper.  Again seems like a questionable design on my stove with no secondary air flow control......

And I forgot to mention, I am on my third refractory set since new, all replaced under parts warranty, my stove has lifetime refractory warranty, thank God they have honored it every time. $1000+ for the parts.  ~5 years ago I did a complete rebuild per factory instructions and re-gasketed everything, no obvious issues found and the problem was unresolved.  Stove seemed a little tighter for a while but cat temp issue persisted.  I keep hoping VC will be annoyed with my warranty claims and maybe reach out to try and assist me, still waiting.....

If you are still reading this I think you for your attention, I hope it has been at least interesting if not entertaining.  I am open to any and all suggestions......  For now it seems I will be running in "non-cat mode",  at least my cat temp alarm does not wake me (or the wife) up at 1 am now.....  Small blessings.

This is a great forum and I find all the discussion here invaluable, sure wish VC would get involved though, so much I do not know about why they do things the way they do and what is "normal" and what is not.  Some day I am going to cut my logs shorter and rebuild an old Encore.....  sounds like a dream.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 18, 2022)

arnermd said:


> All good questions / comments but I suspect you are all thinking of the older models......  I will address each comment as best as I know how....
> 
> I do not think that works on my stove.  The newer stoves do not use the flat tabs like the old ones, below are pics I found, notice the clips are shaped so it kind of spring loads the glass when you tighten up the screws.
> 
> ...


On the older models the secondary air flapper closes as the cat temp rises. Not sure who thought that was a good idea but I've changed my Intrepid II 1990 to a fixed secondary intake and it made the stove much more controllable.


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## moresnow (Jan 18, 2022)

arnermd said:


> All good questions / comments but I suspect you are all thinking of the older models......  I will address each comment as best as I know how....
> 
> I do not think that works on my stove.  The newer stoves do not use the flat tabs like the old ones, below are pics I found, notice the clips are shaped so it kind of spring loads the glass when you tighten up the screws.
> 
> ...


You good sir are a true testament to the following VC has developed over the years. The adversity you have encountered with that stove alone would have driven me away looooong ago! Your Cat damage looks like thermal shock?  Possibly?
 Apologize for not having any operational advice.  
You would be underwhelmed with the operational requirements of many newer Cat equipped makes/models. Likely you would be bored actually! Best of luck.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 18, 2022)

arnermd said:


> I get maybe 2-2.5 seasons and then they look like this..... This one has been through ~2 seasons....


That cat looks like it's had cold air blowing in the front of it. 
In my opinion the design of that refractory box has one fatal flaw (I also have the Encore 2040). The cold secondary intake comes in right under the cat exhaust which designed to run at 1500+ degrees. Separated only by a 1/2" thick refractory cement piece. Where the two pieces of the refractory box meet there is a gasket, and if any air leaks around that gasket it will crumble your catalyst and refractory box in short time due to the large temp gradient. It happened to me recently and I just globbed the whole thing up with refractory cement to stop the air coming in directly under the cat. Hopefully it lasts


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 18, 2022)

As stated above the older stoves have a secondary air flapper that closes as it gets hot. Most of us have completely blocked the secondary air channel. When I put in a new refractory box and upper damper this last fall I didn’t even install the secondary probe that controlled the flapper.  Have you tried blocking all 8 of the holes letting in air?  And does your secondary air have its own supply or does it use the primary inlet as well? If it’s independent from the primary you can try plugging the secondary inlet. Trying to feed it more cool air I believe is the wrong direction. This is most likely contributing to your cat crumbling.


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## Diabel (Jan 18, 2022)

Well detailed. 
It appears that you have become pretty efficient at fixing this stove over the years. Cannot really add much here but I would try to find where the secondary air inlets are (not outlets inside the box) and experiment with plugging them (magnets work well or steel wool and bolt). 

I believe the old VC Defiant 1945 has the same firebox size as yours. I am sure you can find one on craigslist needing rebuild. Many of us here were able to overcome the uncontrollable characteristics of these VC cat stoves and we all have documented the process on this forum.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 18, 2022)

I have the 1945 in my cabin. It is a good heater. The secondary is stock on that as I haven’t really had the problem of a run away cat.


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## arnermd (Jan 18, 2022)

moresnow said:


> You good sir are a true testament to the following VC has developed over the years. The adversity you have encountered with that stove alone would have driven me away looooong ago! Your Cat damage looks like thermal shock?  Possibly?
> Apologize for not having any operational advice.
> You would be underwhelmed with the operational requirements of many newer Cat equipped makes/models. Likely you would be bored actually! Best of luck.


I think you just called me a zealot, in a nice way.  I won't deny it....  I am not really married to VC, my issue is I have ~$4k invested in this stove and I am trying to make that payback.....  If I could swap this stove out for one that works well at minimal cost, I would do it, of course that is not a reality.

Which brings me to another issue, how do you know which stoves work well?  Really hard to know before you buy one.  I wish they would let you rent one for a month before you buy.

I see you are a BK guy?  I have looked at them and heard good things.  A couple things I don't like about them, correct me where necessary:

No swingout ashpan: With the ashpan cleaning out is a snap and can be done with a fire going.
No top load: Top load is easier on my back and easier to stuff I think.
No cooktop?: Does the top of a BK get hot enough to cook on?
Do they BK's require an electric fan?  Or is that an option....
Not as good looking as the VC's  (a minor negative for me)
Thermal shock:  You could be right but typically I think of thermal shock occurring when you reload a stove with wet wood and the cool water vapor hits a hot cat.  I have dry wood and I always let a fresh load come up to temp before engaging the cat.

I think more likely the cause is flame impingement, notice the new VC stoves the secondary smoke inlet is at the bottom of the stove where all the hot stuff is.  In the older units and other cat stoves the smoke inlet is higher up in the firebox.  I think this gives the primary burn more time to mix and burn off before heading to the cat.  When my secondary burn goes nuclear I can hear a sucking sound (to quote Ross Perot) and I think this is caused by carryover / jetting of flame into the secondary burn chamber, possibly impinging on the cat.


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## moresnow (Jan 18, 2022)

I mean zero disrespect and hope it is not taken that way. Getting your money's worth is what it's all about. I am a BK user for sure. Would I use another brand? In a New York second! Only because I am a wood stove junkie in general. Always looking for an excuse to try something new. Still trying to justify a Woodstock stove.... For no other reason than comparison as I've heard positive reviews.
 Ashpans are another potential air intrusion/gasket maintenance concern to me. Not a pan fan but to each there own.
I've never owned a top load stove. Can't say I wouldn't enjoy it? Who knows? I am a N/S loader in the BK's.
I don't cook on my stove's. I also don't boil H20 on them. I have other appliances I simply prefer. 
I would not own or recommend a BK without the optional fans. From experience.

The visuals from a VC are certainly very nice. Kind of the least of my concern in a 24/7 heating appliance. Just my opinion.


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## arnermd (Jan 18, 2022)

Thanks to all for your thoughts.  I really appreciate this forum.  A couple things I took away:

Older cat stoves close down secondary air as temp increases.  This is contrary to what I thought before, I stand corrected.
I have run for years with all 8 secondary inlet holes plugged, it calmed the stove down quite a bit, but I am still getting regular cat temps north of 1600 - 1700.
I have not tried restricting the secondary air at the inlet (I do have a separate secondary air inlet).  I will give that a shot, steel wool will work nicely there.  Unfortunately at the moment I am cat-less.....  But I can fix that easily with an online order to Condor for $120....  I should put it on automatic re-order, every two years send me a new cat.....
gthomas:  I think I know the area you are talking about.....  is it where I circled below? Right at the seam of the front/rear fireback?  The refractory comes with small formed channels there to let fresh secondary in through that seam.  A quick look at the service manual for the Encore 2040, looks just like mine, just smaller.






Now that I think about it, it does seem like the cat temps will be stable initially at 1100 - 1200 and then spike over 1600 in  10 minutes or so and hang there.  I am wondering if something is "opening up" at temp and creating another source of air for the cat.
And since I have been burning without the cat, I can still get secondary temps to 1400, but it takes longer to get there and the temps don't hang there for hours, if I close down the primary air the temps will come down.  I also see them bouncing around 1400 - 800 - 1200 - 700 over the course of a couple hours.   I think all these behaviors make sense given the catalyst is not there to keep things burning at peak eff.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 19, 2022)

I think your next step (as you stated) is to start restricting the secondary air coming in. Maybe get a couple of small magnets and use tinfoil to completely block the inlet. This will give you both ends of the spectrum. Then you can dial it in from there.


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## John B (Jan 19, 2022)

perhaps your thermometer is inaccurate.  I have 3 currently that all read too high only when burning above 1200 degrees.  They will make 1400 look like 1700+.  Best to check hottest Stove top temps with an IR gun and compare to thermo readings, generally top will be half the cat temp.


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## arnermd (Jan 20, 2022)

John B said:


> perhaps your thermometer is inaccurate.  I have 3 currently that all read too high only when burning above 1200 degrees.  They will make 1400 look like 1700+.  Best to check hottest Stove top temps with an IR gun and compare to thermo readings, generally top will be half the cat temp.


Yeah that's a possibility,  I am using a type K thermocouple with a watlow controller for readout.  I trust it but I can't prove it....  I do see other indications of overheat in the secondary like, signs of refractory distress / spalling,  Cat crumbling with severe metal frame warping, I can hear a distinct sound when it goes nuclear.  So I am pretty sure it is over temping.....

Yesterday I ran a full load with no cat, secondary air inlet completely blocked. 

 Nice bed of coals, left the secondary bypassed and got the griddle to 450, exhaust pipe at 500, lots of flame, engaged the secondary, secondary temp went to700 and slowly climbed over an hour to 1200 and stabilized.
About an hour later secondary went to 1500-1600.  Throttled primary air to full closed.
No flames, just an orange glow, temps hung at ~1550 for about an hour.  Griddle was kind of cold at ~350.  Glass got smoked up.
Finally gave up and opened the bypass, secondary temps dropped to ~800, left it there with no air for about 45 min.
Reengaged secondary and went 25% air, secondary went to ~1000 and stabilized
Added more air, 50% open, and temps dropped to 900 and then slowly decayed for the rest of the 6 hours burn.
Yesterday my thought was I have an air leak, so I candled every seam I could get to and only found a very small leak near the glass door handle where the two doors meet.  I also noticed if I just cracked the griddle very so slightly the firebox gasses would immediately ignite in a good puff.  Tells me the stove is pretty tight, at least the primary firebox.....

Had a thought, maybe I waited to long the engage the secondary and all the hot coals were just sitting there with no air flow the heat is kind of trapped.  Last nights burn I engaged the secondary much sooner and secondary temps only climbed to 800 or so.  Maybe it is a thermal momentum thing.....

This morning I reinstalled the 8 blocking screws, should not matter as I have inlet 100% blocked with foil, but easy to try.  We shall see what todays burn brings....

Also ordered a 4 channel TC data logger so I can collect temp data for the whole burn.  "_PerfectPrime TC0520, 4-Channels Thermocouple Thermometer K,J,E,T Type Data Logger_" available on Amazon for ~$180

Best regards to all and thanks for the thoughts....


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## trispad (Jan 20, 2022)

I have struggled with nearly the exact same issues as you describe @arnermd. I have found that I need to tighten the door handle (flip the inside closing knob over or remove the washer). I find the bottom left 3" of the right hand door does not seal as best as it could. I always had a hard time finding it with the flame method as it is under the door lip. The dollar bill method would show that this is the least tight of all the areas on the doors.

Some things I have found that you could look at, having dry wood, 15% is good, 18% is okay, 20% is to wet. With 20%, if I don't really burn the logs in before I close the damper, I get the huge off gassing of a log further into the burn which spikes the cat (see your 2nd bullet point above). What I figure is that the log does not really light at first, but once it has fully charred/dried out in the firebox it starts to off gas at a high rate and there is little to no flame in the firebox to burn the smoke before it hits the cat. I have found that also using large splits helps with this as well because there are fewer logs to off gas at different times in the burn process. When I say large, I mean I get 4 splits onto a bet of coals in a Defiant like yours.

I do block some of the intake ports. I have tried all 8 and have settled on 4. I have also tired covering the secondary intake behind the stove would cause me to crash the cat in the middle of the night if the air was too low.

If you don't trust your current thermocouple, you can do a rudimentary test by sticking it in ice water and then sticking it in boiling water test it.

Getting temp data logger is the right way to go for sure. Also, what kind of flue temps are you getting?


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## arnermd (Jan 20, 2022)

trispad said:


> I have struggled with nearly the exact same issues as you describe @arnermd. I have found that I need to tighten the door handle (flip the inside closing knob over or remove the washer). I find the bottom left 3" of the right hand door does not seal as best as it could. I always had a hard time finding it with the flame method as it is under the door lip. The dollar bill method would show that this is the least tight of all the areas on the doors.


Nice to know I am not alone, misery loves company.  I know exactly what you are talking about with the flame method....  I will check it again with the dollar bill test. just to make sure.  I have tried running with the door latch not fully seated to get more compression on the door seals, did not notice a difference.  I see no change in the flame activity so I a fairly certain that's not it...  but I will check it.


trispad said:


> Some things I have found that you could look at, having dry wood, 15% is good, 18% is okay, 20% is to wet. With 20%, if I don't really burn the logs in before I close the damper, I get the huge off gassing of a log further into the burn which spikes the cat (see your 2nd bullet point above). What I figure is that the log does not really light at first, but once it has fully charred/dried out in the firebox it starts to off gas at a high rate and there is little to no flame in the firebox to burn the smoke before it hits the cat. I have found that also using large splits helps with this as well because there are fewer logs to off gas at different times in the burn process. When I say large, I mean I get 4 splits onto a bet of coals in a Defiant like yours.


You could be right,  makes sense to me.  I tend to do larger splits as you said and I agree it helps.  Trouble with the big splits is you can only get so many in there and then at the top I like to have some smaller short ones to top it off.
Just checked the wood in my box and readings were about 12% along the split with the grain, ends were lower.  Couple 2" rounds read 18% in the middle through the bark.  Wood has been under cover for 2 years.


trispad said:


> I do block some of the intake ports. I have tried all 8 and have settled on 4. I have also tired covering the secondary intake behind the stove would cause me to crash the cat in the middle of the night if the air was too low.


I noticed a big difference today with secondary inlet blocked and all 8 holes plugged, I struggled to get the secondary to 650F (no cat right now) with full air, griddle was crankin at 450-500, had to turn the air down to <50% as I could not remove any more clothing.....  Secondary hung around 550 - 600 all afternoon.  Obviously much too cold, but I am cautiously optimistic.  We shall see.  I can always remove a few screws easy enough to dial it in.  We shall see what tonight's burn brings....  This mornings load is coming up on 12 hours an the griddle is still at 300, it was a very full load this morning but that's a bit longer than I am used to seeing.  I guess less air will do that....

Assuming this fix holds consistently, it suggests to me air is leaking  near the secondary inlet between the refractory and the base casting.  I blocked the secondary by stuffing foil up into the port so the interface between the refractory and cast iron is not sealed.  Maybe these areas here where I hatched in red.







trispad said:


> If you don't trust your current thermocouple, you can do a rudimentary test by sticking it in ice water and then sticking it in boiling water test it.
> 
> Getting temp data logger is the right way to go for sure. Also, what kind of flue temps are you getting?


I have checked the TC's with an ice bath and boiling, they are pretty close, few degrees.  Not sure how to reliably check them up at 1700 though....  I am pretty sure they are close enough.

Flue temps normally run about 250 but when the secondary goes nuclear they will climb to ~400.  I have seen 500-600 when I have the secondary bypassed and flame is ripping through the damper.  I use a magnetic bimetal on the pipe about 18" above the griddle.  Never checked it for accuracy.  I am sure it is reading low as it is not in the pipe itself..


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 20, 2022)

I’m not sure you are testing your MC correctly.  Bring a few pieces in the house over night. Something straight grained and easy to resplit. Tomorrow split these pieces in half and check your MC on the freshly split face with the grain. This will give you accurate readings. Testing  the ends, a cold piece, or an old face will tell you nothing.


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## arnermd (Jan 21, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I’m not sure you are testing your MC correctly.  Bring a few pieces in the house over night. Something straight grained and easy to resplit. Tomorrow split these pieces in half and check your MC on the freshly split face with the grain. This will give you accurate readings. Testing  the ends, a cold piece, or an old face will tell you nothing.


Yep, You are correct of course....  I was being lazy....  I repeated the measurements following your instructions and here is what I found.

I did two fairly large splits, one oak, one ash.  Probes against the grain or with the grain, did not really seem to matter.
Fresh split readings were much more consistent.


SpeciesEndsOriginal Split faceFresh split faceOak8-15%10-15%17.2-17.5%Ash5-11%10-15%16-17%
Subjectively I would say just by weight and feel these pieces are not as dry as typical for me, maybe because they were on the bigger side.

Last nights burn was uneventful, let the griddle get to 400 before I threw in the damper.  Secondary settled in around 800 with 50% air.

This morning I was burning some odds and ends, loosely packed in the stove.  Let the griddle go to 400, threw in the damper.  Secondary jumped to 800 then slowly climbed up to 1200 with 100% air, lots of flame.  Then it rocketed to 1400 in a few minutes so I closed down air to 50%.  Secondary temps slowly decayed to 800 where it has been holding for a couple hours.  Gridle is at 450, exhaust 275.

This result is encouraging in that I seem to be able to control the temps with the primary air lever.  Not so before.
Secondary still seems a bit low to me, might try unplugging some of the 8 holes to see if I can move it up a bit.

_Sarcasm alert_
You know what would be great, if this stove had a bimetal actuator that would regulate secondary air to control the cat temps....  Something like this.....  What a great idea.....






I hope all this is at least providing some entertainment value.....


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 21, 2022)

Ok. You have found your so called “regulated” secondary. My guess is this is the result of your previous screaming cat temps  when the flapper goes past “zero” and starts to open up again on the top. Common problem.  If you are going to entertain the idea of keeping it operational thean put a magnet on the bottom of the stove that will keep the flapper from going to far and opening back up on top. Honestly though I would disconnect the flapper from the secondary probe and leave it completely closed. Then fine tune your cat with the 8 holes. Also try operating your stove initially off of flue temps and not stove top temps. I have a flue probe so it reads differently from yours. I run my flue temps up to 600* then shut my damper. Primary is fully open. I then watch my cat temps. I start to close my primary in increments once the cat hits 800*. Eventually settling in with primary just about fully closed.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 21, 2022)

We will get you burning good. We were all noobs at one point.


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## arnermd (Jan 21, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> We will get you burning good. We were all noobs at one point.


Hmmmm I may have created some confusion.  The picture above is not my stove, it is from an older Encore.  My stove does not have a flapper and is not regulated, that was my point.  I wish my secondary was regulated.  Seems to work well on the old stoves, why did they change it?

I have been using flue temps for secondary engagement, I throw mine in around 450-500 but it is a magnetic stick on type, flue gas is probably a bit hotter than my reading.

Noob:  Sadly I can't use that as an excuse....  I have had this stove for 11 years, and I burn 24/7, 4 cords a year.  I may be an idiot, but I am not a noob.... or this stove is possessed.....

Had the secondary go to 1660 today with 50% air....  I did not change a thing....  Closed air down to 0%, secondary cooled down to 800, set air back to 50%, secondary stable at 850-900.....   I continue to be mystified.  I still have secondary inlet completely plugged and all 8 holes plugged as well.

Temp logger coming on Saturday, hopefully next week I can share actual temp plots.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 21, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Seems to work well on the old stoves, why did they change it?


It never worked well. All those stoves either got modified or burned out from overfiring.


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## arnermd (Jan 21, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> It never worked well. All those stoves either got modified or burned out from overfiring.


Really?  That's kind of depressing.....  I have a buddy who has two encores and he has shown me data where the cat goes to 1200 and sits there all day long.  Occasional excursion up 1300 - 1400....  Maybe he got lucky....


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## gthomas785 (Jan 21, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Really?  That's kind of depressing.....  I have a buddy who has two encores and he has shown me data where the cat goes to 1200 and sits there all day long.  Occasional excursion up 1300 - 1400....  Maybe he got lucky....


I think under perfect draft conditions it may work ok


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## Rusty18 (Jan 21, 2022)

Mine had secondary air controls, now it has a piece of duct tape over the hole and the flapper bolted tight overtop of it.  Once lit the cat runs double griddle plus about 200F.  Once in a while it will still go nuclear if I reload and close the damper too soon but that’s op error on my part.   Running 1100-1200 on the cat all I get out the stack is steam.  
Prior to restricting the secondary it would light sooner/easier and burn maybe a touch cleaner but it would also spike over 1800F if I put more than one split in it at a time.  
The only temp instrument on the stove I trust is the thermocouple.


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## bbryan (Jan 22, 2022)

Looking for some quick advice. I had a new VC encore installed in the fall. Do to some unfortunate issues with the contractor, we only just got it inspected and approved to burn. I'm eager to start the first conditioning fires. I have heard that these first fires will cause quite a stink and that you want the windows open. Unfortunately it is also only ~10 degrees out today here in Rhode Island. Am I going to gas my family if I try to burn today or should I be patient until later in the week when we are supposed to have a 40 degree day. Thanks in advance for any insights. (the stove is not enamel if that is relevant)


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## dmccoole (Jan 22, 2022)

Welcome!  I had a new Encore in November.  Start with 3 small quick fires.  Each burnin fire releases some stove burn off but it wasn't that bad.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 22, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Hmmmm I may have created some confusion.  The picture above is not my stove, it is from an older Encore.  My stove does not have a flapper and is not regulated, that was my point.  I wish my secondary was regulated.  Seems to work well on the old stoves, why did they change it?
> 
> I have been using flue temps for secondary engagement, I throw mine in around 450-500 but it is a magnetic stick on type, flue gas is probably a bit hotter than my reading.
> 
> ...


Haha. Oops my bad. I get it now.  By no means did I intended to insult  your abilities with your stove. These stoves can be very frustrating. Just when you think you have it figured out it decides to go all crazy on ya. 
I have found sometimes mid burn the cat will spike. Mostly I experience this when there are large splits that might be a on the higher side of MC. What I think happens is the outer parts of the split are dryer and burn well. Once the inner, wetter parts start off gassing they seem to smoke more than burn creating a heavy work load for the cat.  I find that 50% primary air setting does not work for me as a final setting. It’s merely an incremental stop on my way down to 10% open. Basically just off of fully closed. 
Will your new logger have an alarm?  I have an alarm set at 1550 on my AT100. This helps tremendously in keeping the cat from committing suicide.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 22, 2022)

bbryan said:


> Looking for some quick advice. I had a new VC encore installed in the fall. Do to some unfortunate issues with the contractor, we only just got it inspected and approved to burn. I'm eager to start the first conditioning fires. I have heard that these first fires will cause quite a stink and that you want the windows open. Unfortunately it is also only ~10 degrees out today here in Rhode Island. Am I going to gas my family if I try to burn today or should I be patient until later in the week when we are supposed to have a 40 degree day. Thanks in advance for any insights. (the stove is not enamel if that is relevant)


It’s hard to say.  You could put a fan in the window if it gets to bad. I don’t remember my defiant stinking to terribly bad.   Your first fire should be a really small one so it shouldn’t last too long. I would go for it.


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## bbryan (Jan 22, 2022)

dmccoole said:


> Welcome!  I had a new Encore in November.  Start with 3 small quick fires.  Each burnin fire releases some stove burn off but it wasn't that bad.


Thanks! I went for it. First fire down! The smell wasn't good, but we closed the doors to the room and put a fan in the window. We all survived.


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## bert670 (Jan 22, 2022)

My VC Dauntless should be delivered/installed in the near future. If I was to purchase one of the battery powered electric temp probes people talk about on the forums, are there pre drilled holes on the stove/pipe to check fire temps and flue temps?


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 22, 2022)

bert670 said:


> My VC Dauntless should be delivered/installed in the near future. If I was to purchase one of the battery powered electric temp probes people talk about on the forums, are there pre drilled holes on the stove/pipe to check fire temps and flue temps?


I would go for the Auber Instruments AT100 or AT200.  It plugs into the wall. So no batteries to replace. I have no idea how the newer stoves are in regards to the probe port.  The older stoves had a hole in the casting but you had to hand drill a hole in the refractory box. As far as the stove pipe goes, no there is not a pre drilled hole. You will have to do that.


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## arnermd (Jan 23, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Haha. Oops my bad. I get it now.  By no means did I intended to insult  your abilities with your stove. These stoves can be very frustrating. Just when you think you have it figured out it decides to go all crazy on ya.
> I have found sometimes mid burn the cat will spike. Mostly I experience this when there are large splits that might be a on the higher side of MC. What I think happens is the outer parts of the split are dryer and burn well. Once the inner, wetter parts start off gassing they seem to smoke more than burn creating a heavy work load for the cat.  I find that 50% primary air setting does not work for me as a final setting. It’s merely an incremental stop on my way down to 10% open. Basically just off of fully closed.
> Will your new logger have an alarm?  I have an alarm set at 1550 on my AT100. This helps tremendously in keeping the cat from committing suicide.


 haha...  no offense taken here, trust me, I thought it was funny....  10 years in, still a noob....  hahaha

My new logger has an alarm and my old TC controllers have alarms as well.  In October I set the cat alarm to 1400, by mid November I am tired of hearing it and I bump it up to 1750....  then it only goes off once in a while.

Data logger works well.  Here is my first data set as of this morning, the monster reared its ugly head and I captured it.  This is a fairly common episode (about 20% of my burns do this) engage the secondary, throttle back, all looks nice and stable then whamo....  to the moon Alice.....  I took no action when it launched, just to see what it would do.  1650 is typical max for these events.  I have seen it go as high as 1800....





So....  Tell me about your throttle down process?  When you engage the cat you are at 100% air right?  When do you cut back?  How often do you cut the air back?  What temps are you keying off of?

Picture of my current setup below.  Couple things I changed today:
I added a flue gas temp TC, flue gasses are a lot hotter than my magnetic pipe temp indicates! Like 350F hotter.
I do not monitor the griddle directly with a TC, the collar TC is close, but picks up a lot of secondary heat.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 24, 2022)

Well that data logger is pretty damn cool.  One thing I noticed is you are chopping your primary air too much too fast (in my opinion).
A typical and very general schedule of my procedure:
Cold start. 
-Large splits on bottom row, then medium, small, kindling and tinder on top. Light fire top down. Primary air fully open. 
-Flue probe reads 600*=>close damper  
-Cat reads 800*-1000* =>close primary 25%. 
-Cat reads 1200*-1300* =>close primary 25%
-Cat reads 1400*-1450* =>close primary 25%
-Cat reads 1525*-1549* => find fully closed and open primary 5%. 
I find fully closed by lightly moving the air lever back and forth until I hear the flapper hitting the frame. Then I just open the air slightly. This will put the brakes on the cat on it generally settles in to something between 1100-1400.  Now there are many factors that take me off my routine, however this is a general and effective method for my set up. 
I’ve been playing around with leaving the primary fully open until GT reads 500-550. It’s an interesting race at times between the cat and the GT. If the cat is reaching   my no go zone before I can my GT to 500 I am forced to shut the primary down in 33% increments. 
Following these methods keeps my stove out of 1550* and above.


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## Diabel (Jan 24, 2022)

My procedure is very similar to @RandyBoBandy s. Except, i do not do a top down & I close the bypass once my cat temp reaches 750. The rest is pretty identical, including the 100% air closing then backing off a bit.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 24, 2022)

Diabel said:


> My procedure is very similar to @RandyBoBandy s. Except, i do not do a top down & I close the bypass once my cat temp reaches 750. The rest is pretty identical, including the 100% air closing then backing off a bit.


You leave your damper open until the cat hits 750?  How do you keep your flue from melting?


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## Diabel (Jan 24, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> You leave your damper open until the cat hits 750?  How do you keep your flue from melting?


Flue will read 400 ~ when cat is at 750. Conventional cold start


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## clancey (Jan 24, 2022)

Yea I know what you mean about the moisture meter for mine I have to drill into wood to place it and then see what the level is--what a pain...clancey


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 24, 2022)

Diabel said:


> Flue will read 400 ~ when cat is at 750. Conventional cold start


That’s crazy. My flue will hit 600 way before my cat hits 750. I’m often launching the cat at 200-300 degrees.


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## Diabel (Jan 24, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> That’s crazy. My flue will hit 600 way before my cat hits 750. I’m often launching the cat at 200-300 degrees.





RandyBoBandy said:


> That’s crazy. My flue will hit 600 way before my cat hits 750. I’m often launching the cat at 200-300 degrees.


Sorry Randy. I dont know what went through my head when I wrote this. I close the bypass when flue reaches 400 (flue temp moves fast at this point). At 400 flue the cat will read anywhere between 250-400. Once I close the bypass the cat will move fast. Within a minute or two it will be at 750 at which point I start closing the primary air in increments. Again sorry for confusing things.


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## arnermd (Jan 24, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Well that data logger is pretty damn cool.  One thing I noticed is you are chopping your primary air too much too fast (in my opinion).
> A typical and very general schedule of my procedure:
> Cold start.
> -Large splits on bottom row, then medium, small, kindling and tinder on top. Light fire top down. Primary air fully open.
> ...


Thanks Randy, I am going to try your method and see how it works for my stove.

Data logger is working very well....

I resealed by secondary inlet yesterday with some magnetic strips on the outside.  Big change in how the stove is reacting.  I think the thermal event in the data above may have been because my secondary plug was leaking.....   I have some neodymium magnet bars on order for a more permanent solution, will post pictures when I get it worked out.

Data from yesterday afternoon and last night below.  Looks really good to me, a bit erratic because I was messing with things.  I even tried the dreaded hot reload (throw in more wood when the secondary is still hot, wait a few minutes and close the bypass).  In the past when I did these there was a very high probability the secondary would go nuclear.  Not so this time!  Secondary got hot for a short blip but came right back down.  Temp bumped up to 1050F ~2 hours later as it worked through the fresh load, but settled back in for the night.

I am feeling pretty good about the changes, we shall see if it lasts, I am cautiously optimistic.  Might be time to get a new cat on order.....


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## Rusty18 (Jan 24, 2022)

May have been mentioned above and I missed it but mine behaves much much better with a full ash pan and about 1” of ash piled above the grate.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 24, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Thanks Randy, I am going to try your method and see how it works for my stove.
> 
> Data logger is working very well....
> 
> ...


Making progress. Only thing I see in your second graph is you shut your damper too early. This is probably why you had to open your air back up


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 24, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> May have been mentioned above and I missed it but mine behaves much much better with a full ash pan and about 1” of ash piled above the grate.


This is a good point. I also usually have about 2” of ash in my stove. Coals last much longer. I keep going back and forth from using the ash pan and just shoveling out ash. It seems to be cleaner shoveling out ash. Every time I open the ash pan door it goes everywhere.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 24, 2022)

Diabel said:


> Sorry Randy. I dont know what went through my head when I wrote this. I close the bypass when flue reaches 400 (flue temp moves fast at this point). At 400 flue the cat will read anywhere between 250-400. Once I close the bypass the cat will move fast. Within a minute or two it will be at 750 at which point I start closing the primary air in increments. Again sorry for confusing things.


Ok that sounds better.  I was scratching my head trying to figure out how that was even possible.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 24, 2022)

Glad to know I'm not insane also. Every now and then I see a post about waiting until the cat is >500 before closing the bypass which baffles me because I don't think my cat would ever get to 500 with the bypass open.


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## arnermd (Jan 24, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> This is a good point. I also usually have about 2” of ash in my stove. Coals last much longer. I keep going back and forth from using the ash pan and just shoveling out ash. It seems to be cleaner shoveling out ash. Every time I open the ash pan door it goes everywhere.


I think you are right as usual, I did throw the damper too early and I had to goose the air to get the temps up....  will wait for higher temps going forward.  Flue was just hitting 700 (gas temp) will wait for 750 and try that.  Might have to wait a bit longer with no cat as the cat will help light off at lower temps....

Ash:  I empty my ash pan every 3-4 days before it gets full....  it makes a smaller mess if it is not full.  Generally I have little ash on the grate, some in the corners.  I do get a layer of coals that sit there above the grate.  My coal bed is a lot deeper since I plugged the secondary.  I am thinking my temps are generally too low now.  May open up a little secondary air once I get this setup learned out and consistent.

Another thought I have been kicking around:  By blocking off the secondary air flow we are eliminating the air flowing through the interior of the refractory, this air helps cool the refractory.  Maybe it is not significant, but by eliminating this air flow the refractory will run hotter.  Of course it is all relative, I am pretty sure no airflow through there at 1000-1400 gas temp is better than some flow with  1800F runaway cat temps.....  I know for a fact the refractory does not like 1800 for long.  My first two lasted ~4 years each and looked pretty stressed (flaky / spalling surface)  when they came out.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 24, 2022)

arnermd said:


> I think you are right as usual, I did throw the damper too early and I had to goose the air to get the temps up....  will wait for higher temps going forward.  Flue was just hitting 700 (gas temp) will wait for 750 and try that.  Might have to wait a bit longer with no cat as the cat will help light off at lower temps....
> 
> Ash:  I empty my ash pan every 3-4 days before it gets full....  it makes a smaller mess if it is not full.  Generally I have little ash on the grate, some in the corners.  I do get a layer of coals that sit there above the grate.  My coal bed is a lot deeper since I plugged the secondary.  I am thinking my temps are generally too low now.  May open up a little secondary air once I get this setup learned out and consistent.
> 
> Another thought I have been kicking around:  By blocking off the secondary air flow we are eliminating the air flowing through the interior of the refractory, this air helps cool the refractory.  Maybe it is not significant, but by eliminating this air flow the refractory will run hotter.  Of course it is all relative, I am pretty sure no airflow through there at 1000-1400 gas temp is better than some flow with  1800F runaway cat temps.....  I know for a fact the refractory does not like 1800 for long.  My first two lasted ~4 years each and looked pretty stressed (flaky / spalling surface)  when they came out.


May I suggest letting some ash build up in the box. Let a couple inches build up. I know the older stoves have epa holes just behind the front legs that let air into the ash pan cavity. Letting ash build up in the box essentially blocks this air.


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## arnermd (Jan 25, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> May I suggest letting some ash build up in the box. Let a couple inches build up. I know the older stoves have epa holes just behind the front legs that let air into the ash pan cavity. Letting ash build up in the box essentially blocks this air.


My stove has an EPA hole too....  It is under the ashpan at the back in the center, near where the primary air comes in.  I have experimented with plugging it, did not seem to make much difference.  I may try again with this new configuration.

Data plots from yesterday.
- For the evening load I tried to follow Randy's procedure, could not really get the temps up, closing air down to 50% seems to stall out the secondary.  I feel like it needs more air.  No doubt my stove reacts a little differently with no cat.  
- Had some backpuffing 2 hours into the burn, further evidence the air was too low.






This morning the stove was acting wonky again, flue temps rocketing up to 1200, very aggressive.  Checked on my secondary plug and it fell out, cheap magnets I used got cooked.....  Re-sealed with some foil and all is good now.  Always nice to find an obvious cause.

Where do you have your flue probe installed?  How far up from the stove top?  I assume you are near the center of the pipe?  I noticed a fair bit of creosote coating mine this morning.  I may open up the damper and burn it off....


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## arnermd (Jan 27, 2022)

Well....  Nothing but good news to report,  I think my stove and I have reconciled our differences.  My heartfelt thanks to all who provided comments, but especially Randy.

I think the key fix  was to seal the secondary air inlet at the inlet side (as suggested by several fine folks here).  I mistakenly thought sealing the ports inside the stove had the same effect, while it helps, it is only a partial fix.  I believe air is leaking at the secondary inlet port where the refractory mates with the cast iron base.  Blocking the secondary inlet port outside the stove solves this.

I sealed the secondary inlet with some neodymium bar magnets an aluminum foil.  I favored this approach because it is easily adjustable if I do need to let a little air in some time in the future.  I am concerned that the heat may de-mag the magnets over time, I am thinking some AL flashing with thin ceramic insulation as a gasket / thermal break might solve that problem.
I reinstalled one of my old cats I had laying around.  It had some holes in it (~20%) where the grid had crumbled.  I took some larger pieces from my latest crumbled cat and simply set them on top of the holes in the old one.  We shall see how long that lasts.
I am amazed at how fast the cat lights off and heats up.  My stove never acted this way before.  I find I am closing the air down 5-10 minutes after I close the damper.  Used to take 30-40 minutes.
The peak cat temps are stable and controllable, if I close down the air the secondary temp responds.  This has never happened before.
I am burning through some smaller short pieces right now so the cat temps drop off in a few hours, I suspect if I had some bigger solid full length splits it would go longer.  My burn times do not seem to be any longer than usual, but that may be because of the wood.
Data from yesterday is plotted below.  Any fine tuning tips would be appreciated.  I have been dropping the flue gas temp at which I engage the cat.  This morning it went off fine at 700F.
Best regards to all the fine folks in this forum.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 27, 2022)

Are you getting any chimney smoke with the secondary fully blocked? When I tried that my stove would continue to give light wisps of grey smoke throughout the burn so I had to make holes to let in a bit of secondary air.


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## arnermd (Jan 27, 2022)

I took a series of pictures this afternoon for todays burn.  Very clear cold day here in CT.....  Occasional breeze but pretty still.
I specify the time since reload and the relevant temps for each shot.  This load took a bit longer to crank up the cat, had some bigger splits in there, may have been higher moisture content.

There is some creosote buildup on my cap and screen, I have been running cold for much of the season trying to prevent the secondary from going nuclear.  And I have run without a cat installed for a while.....

10 min, Damper open, Flue gas @ 600F, clearly grey smoke







19 minutes, Damper closed, 800F secondary, some smoke








25 min, 1000F secondary, still some smoke





60 min, 1125F secondary, still some grey





83 min, 1200F, almost all gone





120 min, 1310F, all gone....  nothing, little bit of steam once in a while








140 min, 1200F, cruising, no plume  If the breeze is right I do get a very slight smell of smoke, so pretty sure it is not all burned


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## arnermd (Jan 28, 2022)

That last picture (bottom right) is not correct, I got them mixed up.....  Unfortunately I can't figure out how to edit the previous post.....


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## gthomas785 (Jan 28, 2022)

Looks like your cat is running a little rich, mine will hit 1300 much earlier with no smoke at that point (maybe 1 hour in)


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 28, 2022)

arnermd said:


> My stove has an EPA hole too....  It is under the ashpan at the back in the center, near where the primary air comes in.  I have experimented with plugging it, did not seem to make much difference.  I may try again with this new configuration.
> 
> Data plots from yesterday.
> - For the evening load I tried to follow Randy's procedure, could not really get the temps up, closing air down to 50% seems to stall out the secondary.  I feel like it needs more air.  No doubt my stove reacts a little differently with no cat.
> ...


Sorry for the late response. My pipe probe is 18” up from the top of stove.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 28, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Well....  Nothing but good news to report,  I think my stove and I have reconciled our differences.  My heartfelt thanks to all who provided comments, but especially Randy.
> 
> I think the key fix  was to seal the secondary air inlet at the inlet side (as suggested by several fine folks here).  I mistakenly thought sealing the ports inside the stove had the same effect, while it helps, it is only a partial fix.  I believe air is leaking at the secondary inlet port where the refractory mates with the cast iron base.  Blocking the secondary inlet port outside the stove solves this.
> 
> ...


This looks good.  Sounds like you are gaining ground in this battle.  My cap was looking good until I hit a bit of “not so great” wood in my shed. I had a few days of fighting with the stove to keep the cat temps in check while trying to also keep stove temps up.


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## arnermd (Jan 28, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> Looks like your cat is running a little rich, mine will hit 1300 much earlier with no smoke at that point (maybe 1 hour in)


Yeah I agree....  this burn was a little odd....  slow to heat up.  I may have closed the air down too quickly....  Still learning how to control this stove in the new config.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 28, 2022)

secondary burns in the box


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 28, 2022)

its really neat to watch when this happens.. I can say since the beginning of January we have been ripping through wood.. I can see myself burning just about 4 cords this year. unless we get a big warm up


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 28, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> its really neat to watch when this happens.. I can say since the beginning of January we have been ripping through wood.. I can see myself burning just about 4 cords this year. unless we get a big warm up


I get great secondaries on my Defiant up at the cabin.  The house stove is not as exciting . My guess is a shorter stack at home. I also fill the stove at home up to the griddle.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 29, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I get great secondaries on my Defiant up at the cabin.  The house stove is not as exciting . My guess is a shorter stack at home. I also fill the stove at home up to the griddle.


I am a short stack also.. but I went with an 8 inch stove pipe over the 6in.. i wanted to make sure I had plenty of draft..


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## arnermd (Jan 29, 2022)

Last nights burn.  Loaded 5 large splits.  Looks pretty good to me....  Interesting undulations in the secondary temps.  I set the air to 60% and went to bed, never touched it till morning.

During the start I left the air at 100% up to 1287F and then set it to 60%.


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## Rusty18 (Jan 29, 2022)

I’m jealous of the data logger!  Could the up swings be the thermostat on the stove open/closing?  
Either way it ran all night and didn’t try to kill itself.


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## arnermd (Jan 29, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> I’m jealous of the data logger!


Logger has provided interesting data.... although I suspect once I re-learn the stove it will get ignored.....  Nice thing is I can just set it to record and it will log 16k data points per channel (11 days @ 1 per minute) and if I want to look at it I can dump it to a PC.  I was able to wire TC's in parallel so it does not interfere with my Watlow TC displays.

It has performed very well so far, no complaints.  Only thing I don't like so far is you can only set an alarm on TC-1.  No bigee as I have my Watlow's set to alarm.

I got mine on Amazon, $170:  _PerfectPrime TC0520, 4-Channels  _They also make a Bluetooth version.  More expensive of course.


> Could the up swings be the thermostat on the stove open/closing?


You could be right about the bimetal regulating, maybe that is it....  Don't know how to tell for sure.



> Either way it ran all night and didn’t try to kill itself.


Yes sir!  happy days are here again!


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 29, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> I am a short stack also.. but I went with an 8 inch stove pipe over the 6in.. i wanted to make sure I had plenty of draft..


I replaced an old scary 8” with a 6” in anticipation of replacing the encore with something newer down the road.  Even at 15’ of 6” my encore is not happy about the change.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 29, 2022)

These frigid single digit temps really have my cat wanting to take off into outer space


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## Rusty18 (Jan 29, 2022)

So after 3 years of reading about how you all can see the glow from the cat I finally saw it this evening.  Can see a nice glow through the crack where the flame shield is hanging. 
On another note...does your stoves creak and crack a lot when it’s up to temp?  The last two evenings I’ve had this one up to 1500 or so on the cat and held it there for an hour and it has popped more this evening than it has the entire time I’ve been running it.  Griddle temp about 450, flue temp about 350 on outside of pipe (normal for that gauge, It reads a touch low). 

Seems to have settle down now but was really making some noise there for a while.


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## RandyBoBandy (Jan 30, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> So after 3 years of reading about how you all can see the glow from the cat I finally saw it this evening.  Can see a nice glow through the crack where the flame shield is hanging.
> On another note...does your stoves creak and crack a lot when it’s up to temp?  The last two evenings I’ve had this one up to 1500 or so on the cat and held it there for an hour and it has popped more this evening than it has the entire time I’ve been running it.  Griddle temp about 450, flue temp about 350 on outside of pipe (normal for that gauge, It reads a touch low).
> 
> Seems to have settle down now but was really making some noise there for a while.


Yeah these stoves will make all kinds of noises during heating up and cooling  down.  Both of my VC stoves do this.


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## defiant3 (Jan 30, 2022)

Pretty sure it's all in the operations manual, but remove throat hood then wedges. Lower should come right oit!


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## arnermd (Jan 31, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> So after 3 years of reading about how you all can see the glow from the cat I finally saw it this evening.  Can see a nice glow through the crack where the flame shield is hanging.
> On another note...does your stoves creak and crack a lot when it’s up to temp?  The last two evenings I’ve had this one up to 1500 or so on the cat and held it there for an hour and it has popped more this evening than it has the entire time I’ve been running it.  Griddle temp about 450, flue temp about 350 on outside of pipe (normal for that gauge, It reads a touch low).
> 
> Seems to have settle down now but was really making some noise there for a while.


Cat glow:  Your site line has to be just right.....

Creaking and cracking:  My stove definitely ticks and pops when heating up.  Once it heat soaks it quiets down, guessing 30 minutes or so.  I suspect joints are just finding a new home after thermal expansion.

After I put in my new glass screws (star drive instead of Philips) I heard the glass ticking a lot For a couple days.  I backed off the screws just a touch and it went away.....


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## arnermd (Jan 31, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> These frigid single digit temps really have my cat wanting to take off into outer space


I was seeing higher cat temps too....  (1400+ is high for my new configuration....  hahaha)  Been single digits overnight here as well.  This morning it was heading to 1400 again, griddle was cold (300), seemed like the flames was ripping right up the secondary,  I tried to hold it off by closing down the air with minimal effect.  Then I closed my exhaust pipe damper and it came right back down, opened up primary air and things seem more normal.  Clearly seems to be a case of overdraft.....

Nice having a stove that responds to changes in settings!


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## gthomas785 (Jan 31, 2022)

I don't know, 1400 secondary temp seems perfectly normal to me especially with the primary air closed down, not a sign of a problem.

Yes I also get lots of creaking especially as the cat heats up.

On my flexburn Encore I can see the glow of the cat through the glass if the wood is burned down far enough, through the crack above the fireback.

On my Intrepid II I can see the cat glowing through the gap next to the primary air control. Something else that has mystified me - even with the damper closed I can sometimes see flames through that hole as well. That spot should be behind the damper and "after" the catalyst. I usually see it when the stove is at peak burn and wanting to go nuclear. it can't because of restricted secondary air, but maybe the air leaking in through that gap is allowing for some "tertiary combustion" in the flue collar? idk


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## arnermd (Jan 31, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> I don't know, 1400 secondary temp seems perfectly normal to me especially with the primary air closed down, not a sign of a problem.



Agreed, I did not mean to imply 1400 was a problem, just hotter than my stove has been running with everything set in the "cruise" position.  When I cut back on the draft (by closing the pipe damper) it came back inline with previous cat temps.

Sure would be nice to hear from VT castings what "normal" is.....

Based on my own experience I think:  

 1700 - 1800+ is too hot (crumbling cat, distressed refractory)
1000 - 1100 seems to be too low (incomplete combustion, I see / smell indications of some smoke in the exhaust)
1200 - 1400 seems to be working for me at the moment.


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## gthomas785 (Jan 31, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Agreed, I did not mean to imply 1400 was a problem, just hotter than my stove has been running with everything set in the "cruise" position.  When I cut back on the draft (by closing the pipe damper) it came back inline with previous cat temps.
> 
> Sure would be nice to hear from VT castings what "normal" is.....
> 
> ...


The numbers I always hear which I think is in the manual (I don't have it in front of me) is that the operating range for all ceramic catalytic elements is 500-1650 F.  Brief trips above 1650 are ok but will eventually break down the ceramic matrix and cause damage.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 31, 2022)

The cat starts  to kick off at 600.. I get worried at 1600. Ive been keeping my cat cooler this year At my overnight burn shutting the air down right away and with a medium bed of coals. To light on the cloles the cat will stall some like 800 to 900, to heavy on the coles and the cat gets to hot. my cat is settling in for the night at around 1000 to 1100. still burning clean and not warping the cat and not cooking it until it crumbles. you guys might want to adjust the cole bed some when the box is full.. all the off gassing and large coal bed will put the cat to warp 5....


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## gthomas785 (Jan 31, 2022)

ALso...remember that the completeness of combustion will not only depend on the cat temperature but the air to fuel mix going into the cat. If it is too rich then you will still get smoke at higher cat temps.


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## arnermd (Jan 31, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> The numbers I always hear which I think is in the manual (I don't have it in front of me) is that the operating range for all ceramic catalytic elements is 500-1650 F.  Brief trips above 1650 are ok but will eventually break down the ceramic matrix and cause damage.


Those ranges seem to agree with my experience.

My manual says nothing about "normal" cat op temps.  It says the cat starts to combust when flue gasses are 500 -600F and you should think about closing the bypass damper when griddle = 450F.

The only published guidance on max cat temps I have found comes from Condar website:

_*Catalytic reaction maxes out at about 1300° Fahrenheit *through any combustor.* Exceeding this temperature is destructive to the combustor* and to the components of your stove._
c_atalysts best operating temperatures are between 600° and 1500°F (316°-816°C)_


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## Rusty18 (Jan 31, 2022)

So I have decided the encore is too big for my house.  At 8F outside I have to have a window beside it fully open to keep the house below 80.  I can do small loads but then it’s burned out by the time I get the cat engaged, defeats the purpose of a cat stove...
Anyone have any suggestions other than downsizing the stove?   
For heat requirement figures a 33k btu blue flame in the basement would over heat the house before I fixed a bunch of the insulation, but it is also 100% duty cycle.  No high n low cycle like a wood stove.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jan 31, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> So I have decided the encore is too big for my house.  At 8F outside I have to have a window beside it fully open to keep the house below 80.  I can do small loads but then it’s burned out by the time I get the cat engaged, defeats the purpose of a cat stove...
> Anyone have any suggestions other than downsizing the stove?
> For heat requirement figures a 33k btu blue flame in the basement would over heat the house before I fixed a bunch of the insulation, but it is also 100% duty cycle.  No high n low cycle like a wood stove.


So you can get you cat going with a minimum amount of wood by using this technique. get your fire going as normal.. get the stove to about 450/ 500 move what you have going all the way back to the access cover, add some wood, close the damper. A small amount of wood up against the access cover where the down draft starts will kick off the cat with out having to load up the stove.. once the cat lights off and going you can add wood and turn the air down.. I do this sometimes in shoulder season when i need heat but don't need a lot of heat. The other thing is change the wood your burning.  Look at like this. A cord of oak will have 25 million BTUs while the same size cord of poplar will have like 12 million BTUs.. thats a 13 million BTU difference for the same volume of wood. less btu less heat but you can still kick you cat off while burning it. Many people here switch the wood or style of burning to what the conditions are outside. Normally late fall im burning small and medium size wood, the past few weeks Im burning stuff thats 4x5 or 5x5 inches with the box full in the morning all day long. You need to switch up what you doing sometimes..  If your stove is set up correctly.. it will produce a lot less then 33k btus


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## PatrickWR (Jan 31, 2022)

Checking in after filing my taxes to report that I totally cashed in on the 26% credit for qualified energy efficient stoves with my VC Dauntless this year. Hurray!


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## Rusty18 (Jan 31, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> So you can get you cat going with a minimum amount of wood by using this technique. get your fire going as normal.. get the stove to about 450/ 500 move what you have going all the way back to the access cover, add some wood, close the damper. A small amount of wood up against the access cover where the down draft starts will kick off the cat with out having to load up the stove.. once the cat lights off and going you can add wood and turn the air down.. I do this sometimes in shoulder season when i need heat but don't need a lot of heat. The other thing is change the wood your burning.  Look at like this. A cord of oak will have 25 million BTUs while the same size cord of poplar will have like 12 million BTUs.. thats a 13 million BTU difference for the same volume of wood. less btu less heat but you can still kick you cat off while burning it. Many people here switch the wood or style of burning to what the conditions are outside. Normally late fall im burning small and medium size wood, the past few weeks Im burning stuff thats 4x5 or 5x5 inches with the box full in the morning all day long. You need to switch up what you doing sometimes..  If your stove is set up correctly.. it will produce a lot less then 33k btus


I’ve spent the last 3 years css big splits 4 n 5 inch stuff, now your telling me I have to split it again 

I’m just whining, I appreciate the advice and will give it a try.  Probably be the weekend before I have a chance to sort through the pile and get a supply of little stuff.  

Regarding wood species...I’m already burning yellow pine, some of it punky.  To go any lower I think I’d just had to use rolled up newspaper!


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## bert670 (Feb 1, 2022)

PatrickWR said:


> Checking in after filing my taxes to report that I totally cashed in on the 26% credit for qualified energy efficient stoves with my VC Dauntless this year. Hurray!


Nice, well be doing our taxes soon and my Dauntless is due to be delivered this weekend and installed on Monday. Looking forward to getting some wood heat going in the house.


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## arnermd (Feb 2, 2022)

Well....  this was fun,  Got my timing mixed up and I needed to load the stove for the night while it still had a thick hot bed of coals going....  the dreaded hot reload I call it.  I closed the damper right way (that my have been my mistake), I closed the air down completely as the secondary temp was rising, eventually I called it at 1600F and opened the damper, rinse and repeat.....  tried adding more air, less air did not seem to matter.  Eventually things got worked out and it burned fine for the night.....

Secondary was completely blocked.   Good news is I was able to open the damper and throttle the air down and cool things off.  In the past (secondary inlet not blocked) things would continue to heat up, even with air full closed.

First time I closed the damper the secondary was really hot, because I had the griddle open for loading, the secondary was pulling in lots  of smoke and air, so it was hot.

Most interesting was on the third attempt I opened the air up and initially the secondary started to rise again but then fell like a rock.  The griddle temp during all this was a bit on the cold side ~350F....  My suspicion is that all the combustion was happening in the secondary because the primary was rippin hot and the fresh load had not yet come up to temp.  Seems like there was an imbalance between primary and secondary combustion rates.

I think if I had waited initially to close the damper and let the fresh load warm up I could have avoided this.... lesson learned.


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## gthomas785 (Feb 2, 2022)

arnermd said:


> Well....  this was fun,  Got my timing mixed up and I needed to load the stove for the night while it still had a thick hot bed of coals going....  the dreaded hot reload I call it.  I closed the damper right way (that my have been my mistake), I closed the air down completely as the secondary temp was rising, eventually I called it at 1600F and opened the damper, rinse and repeat.....  tried adding more air, less air did not seem to matter.  Eventually things got worked out and it burned fine for the night.....
> 
> Secondary was completely blocked.   Good news is I was able to open the damper and throttle the air down and cool things off.  In the past (secondary inlet not blocked) things would continue to heat up, even with air full closed.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it can be tempting to close the damper early if the load really takes off. I usually set myself a timer for 8 minutes and if the flue temp starts to redline before the timer is up I will close the damper but then re open it once the flue temp drops. I find the extra time with the bypass open helps the load catch and avoid overfiring the cat.

Also.. you mentioned opening the griddle with the bypass closed..? I wouldn't do that


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## arnermd (Feb 2, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> Yeah, it can be tempting to close the damper early if the load really takes off. I usually set myself a timer for 8 minutes and if the flue temp starts to redline before the timer is up I will close the damper but then re open it once the flue temp drops. I find the extra time with the bypass open helps the load catch and avoid overfiring the cat.


Sounds like a good approach....  will try that next time.


gthomas785 said:


> Also.. you mentioned opening the griddle with the bypass closed..? I wouldn't do that


When I reloaded, the damper was open (secondary bypassed).  My point was that with that much air coming in some goes out through the secondary.  Most goes out the bypass damper of course.  I have lifted the griddle with the cat engaged before.....  definitely has an effect!


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 2, 2022)

Hot reloads can be tricky. I usually don’t have much of an issue with closing the damper right away.   I think I leave the primary alone though.  Or I will open it some if the GT temps are below 400. 
And as stated above. Don’t open any doors or griddle with the damper closed. Open damper and give everything a minute to start flowing through the damper again.


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## arnermd (Feb 4, 2022)

Update on my secondary blocking plate.....

Neodymium magnets will not last.....  too hot, they demag.  Good to about 100C (212F)
Bought some ceramic magnets, good for 300C (572C)
Amazon, $1.93 ea  :  MAG-MATE 500X1X2C8 Grade 8 Ceramic Rectangular Bar Magnet, 1 x 2 x 1/2" / 7 lb

Bent up a sheet metal plate out of 6061 Al
2" x  8"

Lined one side with ceramic sheet insulation 1/16" thick.  May not be required, I figured it would keep things cooler and help seal.
2 days in and so far so good, magnets have not lost any strength.


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## Diabel (Feb 4, 2022)

Sticky aluminum foil works fine


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## Rusty18 (Feb 4, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> So you can get you cat going with a minimum amount of wood by using this technique. get your fire going as normal.. get the stove to about 450/ 500 move what you have going all the way back to the access cover, add some wood, close the damper. A small amount of wood up against the access cover where the down draft starts will kick off the cat with out having to load up the stove.. once the cat lights off and going you can add wood and turn the air down.. I do this sometimes in shoulder season when i need heat but don't need a lot of heat. The other thing is change the wood your burning.  Look at like this. A cord of oak will have 25 million BTUs while the same size cord of poplar will have like 12 million BTUs.. thats a 13 million BTU difference for the same volume of wood. less btu less heat but you can still kick you cat off while burning it. Many people here switch the wood or style of burning to what the conditions are outside. Normally late fall im burning small and medium size wood, the past few weeks Im burning stuff thats 4x5 or 5x5 inches with the box full in the morning all day long. You need to switch up what you doing sometimes..  If your stove is set up correctly.. it will produce a lot less then 33k btus


Finally got some time to bust up some of my bigger stuff.  So far so good using your technique.
I also peeled the foil back a little on the secondary,  should help it light sooner run a tad hotter with a small load in the box.
On a side note three year old pine splits don’t stand a chance against an x27!


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 5, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> Finally got some time to bust up some of my bigger stuff.  So far so good using your technique.
> I also peeled the foil back a little on the secondary,  should help it light sooner run a tad hotter with a small load in the box.
> On a side note three year old pine splits don’t stand a chance against an x27!



Were here to help each other. Having the stove for a number of years  you learn a thing or two. There are times that I want to run the stove because its cool out but dont want a lot of heat.. I do things a little different, try something different, Glad its working out for you


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## Rusty18 (Feb 5, 2022)

Settling in at 350-400 stove top with the cat peaking about 1000 and slowly dropping off.  Opening the secondary back up has helped cat with running the stove this low I think, 700F and there isn’t anything visible coming out the stack.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 5, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> Settling in at 350-400 stove top with the cat peaking about 1000 and slowly dropping off.  Opening the secondary back up has helped cat with running the stove this low I think, 700F and there isn’t anything visible coming out the stack.


 yes.. this would be a good set up..


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## arnermd (Feb 6, 2022)

Diabel said:


> Sticky aluminum foil works fine


I thought about using some AL tape but I thought eventually the sticky would burn off.  You have had success with it?

I measured metal temps in the area and was reading 400-550F, I would think any adhesive would burn off.  But I have been wrong before.


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## Diabel (Feb 6, 2022)

arnermd said:


> I thought about using some AL tape but I thought eventually the sticky would burn off.  You have had success with it?
> 
> I measured metal temps in the area and was reading 400-550F, I would think any adhesive would burn off.  But I have been wrong before.


Seems fine. Applied mine 4 years ago and it is still there, attached. I am sure there are different grades of tape.


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## Rusty18 (Feb 6, 2022)

Finally got around to setting up an old four wheeler tire on a stump.  Works amazing for reducing the size of the splits.  It’s just like whack a mole but with splits and an axe!

Also I put the aluminum tape on mine 2 years ago and it was still stuck when I peeled it off yesterday.  But I only burn about 1 cord a year as supplemental heat.


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## Rusty18 (Feb 6, 2022)

Also...my wife made the joke yesterday that I live in a house with three women.  Her, our daughter, and the encore...what do you all think she meant by that?


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## gthomas785 (Feb 6, 2022)

arnermd said:


> I thought about using some AL tape but I thought eventually the sticky would burn off.  You have had success with it?
> 
> I measured metal temps in the area and was reading 400-550F, I would think any adhesive would burn off.  But I have been wrong before.


I tried foil tape on mine and it peeled off.


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## arnermd (Feb 7, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> Also...my wife made the joke yesterday that I live in a house with three women.  Her, our daughter, and the encore...what do you all think she meant by that?


I think I know what she meant.....  I won't type it as it is not suitable for a public forum.  I think the word fickle might sum it up....


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 7, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> Settling in at 350-400 stove top with the cat peaking about 1000 and slowly dropping off.  Opening the secondary back up has helped cat with running the stove this low I think, 700F and there isn’t anything visible coming out the stack.


How far into the burn are you?


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## Rusty18 (Feb 7, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> How far into the burn are you?


Depended on how low I let it go before reloading.  With a 2” pile of coals I shoved them all to the back threw an 1” split on top and and a few more 1-2” splits in front next to the coals.  With that set up I’d burn it about 10 mins then close the damper and leave air full open until cat temp topped out then close it down all the way.  Averaged 1-2 hrs before needing a reload, 1 hr I’d still have plenty of coals, 2 hrs I’d need to do a short burn to get stove back up to temp then do a reload.
Disclaimer-burning 3 year old pine that was busted down to small splits and set in a metal bucket by the stove.  Lights almost instantly.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 7, 2022)

Rusty18 said:


> Depended on how low I let it go before reloading.  With a 2” pile of coals I shoved them all to the back threw an 1” split on top and and a few more 1-2” splits in front next to the coals.  With that set up I’d burn it about 10 mins then close the damper and leave air full open until cat temp topped out then close it down all the way.  Averaged 1-2 hrs before needing a reload, 1 hr I’d still have plenty of coals, 2 hrs I’d need to do a short burn to get stove back up to temp then do a reload.
> Disclaimer-burning 3 year old pine that was busted down to small splits and set in a metal bucket by the stove.  Lights almost instantly.


sounds like its working out for you.. good for you..


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## bert670 (Feb 8, 2022)

Finally had my Dauntless delivered. Had it ordered in August, but it looks like it was worth the wait. Initial impressions is that it’s a beautiful stove, and appears in to be very well made (we’ll see about the refractory). Flue system is approx 15’ straight vertical. I did a small break in fire that brought the stove temp to about 225. Fire started with a great draft (40 degree outside temp). burned maybe 8 pieces of kindling and after about 10-15 min of having the door open, I was able to close it and the fire proceeded to burn for about another 40 min without any issues. We’ll see how this stove works out. I’ll update with the good and the bad in the upcoming weeks.







Edit- the picture with my son was when I first closed the door, and it’s the closest he’ll ever get to the stove, already have a saftey gate installed. But I had to let him enjoy it, he’ll be running it for me in a few years while I’m at work, gotta learn them early.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 9, 2022)

Kids are pretty good with stoves. I feel they understand the danger of it.  We had a gate around the stove when my kids were real little. They are now 3 and 5. I’m pretty sure we did not use the gate last year or this year at all.


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## gthomas785 (Feb 9, 2022)

I think I burned myself on the stove one time when I was like 3 or 4. Had great respect for it after that.
Didn't stop me from helping / being interested etc. My parents never had any gates or anything around it.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 9, 2022)

Im 54 and still burn myself of the stove once a year.. so far this year I've had good luck and haven't done it.. I think im starting to mature..


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## clancey (Feb 9, 2022)

That stove is very pretty with a wide front--nice...I hate to say this but I am one of those people that if I had small kids I would put a gate around the stove for a little while just to see how the situation folds out..I am a worry wort anyway...old clancey


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## Diabel (Feb 9, 2022)

bert670 said:


> Finally had my Dauntless delivered. Had it ordered in August, but it looks like it was worth the wait. Initial impressions is that it’s a beautiful stove, and appears in to be very well made (we’ll see about the refractory). Flue system is approx 15’ straight vertical. I did a small break in fire that brought the stove temp to about 225. Fire started with a great draft (40 degree outside temp). burned maybe 8 pieces of kindling and after about 10-15 min of having the door open, I was able to close it and the fire proceeded to burn for about another 40 min without any issues. We’ll see how this stove works out. I’ll update with the good and the bad in the upcoming weeks.
> 
> View attachment 291827
> View attachment 291828
> ...


Where is the damper lever on that stove? Is it just the photo?


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 9, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> Im 54 and still burn myself of the stove once a year.. so far this year I've had good luck and haven't done it.. I think im starting to mature..


I’m reminded how dumb I am every time I think I can reload the stove with no gloves.  I either burn my hand against an internal stove part or my arm on the lip of the griddle opening.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 9, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> I think I burned myself on the stove one time when I was like 3 or 4. Had great respect for it after that.
> Didn't stop me from helping / being interested etc. My parents never had any gates or anything around it.


My three year old is always trying to help on cold starts or if I find a golf ball coal in the stove to revive back into a fire. If I can avoid striking a match I will.


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## Woodlifer (Feb 9, 2022)

SJSoz said:


> I'm hoping for some help with my VC Dauntless. I've had it for a little over a year and I've had many woodstoves before this one but I just can't seem to get it running right. Despite almost closing off the air intake the stove always seems to get into a state of overfiring +650 degrees. Even with the air intake almost off and the damper closed the stove still runs too hot. In addition no matter how I set the air the front glass is completely black after only a few hours. And it is almost impossible to clean. I have good quality kiln dried wood. I watch the stove for at least the first hour trying to keep the heat down to 500-600. But whatever I do it ends up over-firing. I cannot figure out what is going on. Any ideas? Thanks!


We just put in the same stove last week. Ours does the same thing. It runs fine then  add some wood  , close damper , set air intake halfway  then before you know it , stovepipe is at 450, stove at 550+ , we turn air intake as low as it will go but it continues to run hot. We don't dare to add much wood at a time because of this. Talking with dealer but have no answers yet.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 9, 2022)

550 stove top is fine. What is your pipe? Single or double wall?  If double wall with a probe thermometer then 450 is also fine.


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## bert670 (Feb 10, 2022)

Diabel said:


> Where is the damper lever on that stove? Is it just the photo?



It’s the photo, it’s there.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 10, 2022)

SJSoz said:


> I'm hoping for some help with my VC Dauntless. I've had it for a little over a year and I've had many woodstoves before this one but I just can't seem to get it running right. Despite almost closing off the air intake the stove always seems to get into a state of overfiring +650 degrees. Even with the air intake almost off and the damper closed the stove still runs too hot. In addition no matter how I set the air the front glass is completely black after only a few hours. And it is almost impossible to clean. I have good quality kiln dried wood. I watch the stove for at least the first hour trying to keep the heat down to 500-600. But whatever I do it ends up over-firing. I cannot figure out what is going on. Any ideas? Thanks!


Have you made any progress with running your stove?


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## bert670 (Feb 10, 2022)

I completed the 3rd break in fire last night, got the stove top up to about 450 on 2 splits and some kindling. Fire lasted for a little over 1.5 hours and I left it to burn down overnight. It was the first fire where I closed the damper and lowered the air control down 2 notches. Fire burned great with nice slow flames after the damper was closed. Of course this weekend we’re looking at temps in the 50’s. Will probably do a fire tonight and then wait until Monday for the first full day of burning. So far very happy with ease of getting a fire going. The reason I went with the straight vertical pipe was because I had heard the new EPA stoves could be tough to get a good draft in.  Overall very happy so far, large glass viewing area to take in the fire and the quality of moving parts are so far so good. We’ll see how things hold up with longer and hotter burns.


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## JV_Thimble (Feb 12, 2022)

Stove took a year off after rebuilding half the house. Then moved it back to essentially the same place it was, in the new half of the house. New chimney by builder. Chimney is single wall in house, bends 90 degrees through wall at about 4 feet, then up in an insulated exterior chase perhaps 20 feet. I have stove top and stove pipe surface (magnet) thermos. Overall has been running pretty well, but two issues I'm trying to sort out. 

1. Cat temp monitoring. Got one of those Auber Instruments sensors mentioned frequently here (old Condar died, no longer available). Went through all the setup back in November/December and quit out of lack of time. But I know how quirky these stoves are and I don't like flying blind. Buckled the firebox when under warranty and all that. 

Back to the Auber. All I've gotten is backwards 3's on the display. Found the directions a bit challenging, but none of the suggestions they provided seemed to do the trick (crossed wires, etc.). Any tricks I might have missed?

2. Draft issues? Hard to get it really going, almost acts like wet wood. No issues with backdrafting or anything like that. Reason I ask the question is it's worked fine until the past couple of weeks, when I got into some potentially less well-cured wood. However, I checked fresh splits today. Pine at 12%, Oak at 17.6, and Cherry at 19.2. Those all seem ok to me. I carefully shop-vacced off the catalyst in case that was plugged with ash, but no change.


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## JV_Thimble (Feb 12, 2022)

JV_Thimble said:


> Stove took a year off after rebuilding half the house. Then moved it back to essentially the same place it was, in the new half of the house. New chimney by builder. Chimney is single wall in house, bends 90 degrees through wall at about 4 feet, then up in an insulated exterior chase perhaps 20 feet. I have stove top and stove pipe surface (magnet) thermos. Overall has been running pretty well, but two issues I'm trying to sort out.
> 
> 1. Cat temp monitoring. Got one of those Auber Instruments sensors mentioned frequently here (old Condar died, no longer available). Went through all the setup back in November/December and quit out of lack of time. But I know how quirky these stoves are and I don't like flying blind. Buckled the firebox when under warranty and all that.
> 
> ...


Turns out I've been running it a bit cold. New stovetop thermo from amazon reads about 100 F high. Probably sooting up the cat, I'm thinking. Time to burn off some soot and see if I'm right.


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## gthomas785 (Feb 12, 2022)

JV_Thimble said:


> Back to the Auber. All I've gotten is backwards 3's on the display. Found the directions a bit challenging, but none of the suggestions they provided seemed to do the trick (crossed wires, etc.). Any tricks I might have missed?


Did you set the thermocouple type? You have to enter the setup menu (0089) then go to "Inty" and if you have a K type set it to the symbol that looks like a backwards 4.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 12, 2022)

Also check your cap. Does it have a screen?


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## JV_Thimble (Feb 13, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> Did you set the thermocouple type? You have to enter the setup menu (0089) then go to "Inty" and if you have a K type set it to the symbol that looks like a backwards 4.


Thanks, I'll have to make sure I've given that a go.


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## JV_Thimble (Feb 13, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> Also check your cap. Does it have a screen?


Chimney cap screen, I presume. Didn't actually look, but can't imagine not having one with code inspections.


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## arnermd (Feb 13, 2022)

JV_Thimble said:


> 2. Draft issues? Hard to get it really going, almost acts like wet wood. No issues with backdrafting or anything like that. Reason I ask the question is it's worked fine until the past couple of weeks, when I got into some potentially less well-cured wood. However, I checked fresh splits today. Pine at 12%, Oak at 17.6, and Cherry at 19.2. Those all seem ok to me. I carefully shop-vacced off the catalyst in case that was plugged with ash, but no change.


Does it rip when you crack the ashpan door open?  If not I would suggest a draft problem.

Could be wet wood too, as you said.  I have had some success with marginal stuff by running the cat bypassed for a while until it get good and hot, then throw the cat in.

Shop vac on the cat seems risky.... even carefully.  I just blow on mine and the fly ash comes out.  If it is creosoted up just get the stove hot and it will burn off.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 13, 2022)

If your cat is not lighting off you'll know when you clean it. The combuster  will be brownish and the steel band will be discolored. Many times people think the stove/pipe is warm enough but its not and everything stalls. I suggest an IR gun for the stove and a magnet for the stove pipe. Keep a good eye on the AT cat temp.  Your cat starts to kick off a 600.. temps of 800/1100 are a good range.  I think randy is asking about the cap.. maybe its plugged up.. could be if the wood is boarder line..


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 13, 2022)

JV_Thimble said:


> Chimney cap screen, I presume. Didn't actually look, but can't imagine not having one with code inspections.


My rain cap does not have a screen on it. Just a thin center band of SS. (Excel chimney). If you got into marginal wood it doesn’t take long to clog up a screen. If you can’t get on the roof use binoculars and visually inspect your cap.


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## bert670 (Feb 13, 2022)

Really liking the new Dauntless so far. Did my first overnight burn last night. Loaded it up at about 1030pm before bed, woke up at 6:30 and room temp was 73, and had a hot bed of coals that got a new fire started right up. Loaded her up again and left for work at 7am. Got home at 4:30 and had a warm stove and just enough coals left to get it started back up without kindling.


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## NewGuy132 (Feb 16, 2022)

Anyone ever have an issue when engaging the bypass that it doesn't seem to engage?  It is hard to explain.  It is almost like when I go to close the bypass that it is too smooth.  Also I am no longer getting the "lazy" flames.  The temp is shooting up to 550-600 with the air turned down where as usually it hovers around 500.  I let the stove cool off and felt it and it felt like it was closing just fine.  I got the usually click at the end, but when it is hot I am not getting that.  This is on a new Intrepid Flexburn.  I don't want to have to deal with the dealer if I don't have to.


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## gthomas785 (Feb 16, 2022)

NewGuy132 said:


> Anyone ever have an issue when engaging the bypass that it doesn't seem to engage?  It is hard to explain.  It is almost like when I go to close the bypass that it is too smooth.  Also I am no longer getting the "lazy" flames.  The temp is shooting up to 550-600 with the air turned down where as usually it hovers around 500.  I let the stove cool off and felt it and it felt like it was closing just fine.  I got the usually click at the end, but when it is hot I am not getting that.  This is on a new Intrepid Flexburn.  I don't want to have to deal with the dealer if I don't have to.


 What temp are you referring to? Griddle? Does the handle still stop in the same positions? You should be able to hear the damper opening and closing. Does it feel like something disengaged?
Also could be that your damper is warped or the gasket is worn out and leaking by.


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## NewGuy132 (Feb 16, 2022)

gthomas785 said:


> What temp are you referring to? Griddle? Does the handle still stop in the same positions? You should be able to hear the damper opening and closing. Does it feel like something disengaged?
> Also could be that your damper is warped or the gasket is worn out and leaking by.


The temp is stove top.  I take it on the stove top right behind the griddle.  My griddle seems to be 100-150 degrees cooler than the rest of the stove top for some reason.  

It feels like things are engaging, but I am not getting the resistance in the damper handle and the solid click once it is closed that I used to.  I think that it isn't closing all the way.  Like I said though it seemed fine once the stove cooled down yesterday.  My wife noticed it too so I don't think that I'm making it up.  

I would hope that the damper isn't warped or the gasket isn't work out yet.  It is a 4 month old stove.


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## RandyBoBandy (Feb 16, 2022)

NewGuy132 said:


> The temp is stove top.  I take it on the stove top right behind the griddle.  My griddle seems to be 100-150 degrees cooler than the rest of the stove top for some reason.
> 
> It feels like things are engaging, but I am not getting the resistance in the damper handle and the solid click once it is closed that I used to.  I think that it isn't closing all the way.  Like I said though it seemed fine once the stove cooled down yesterday.  My wife noticed it too so I don't think that I'm making it up.
> 
> I would hope that the damper isn't warped or the gasket isn't work out yet.  It is a 4 month old stove.


It’s a new stove thus a new gasket. The gasket has just “broke in “ sort of speak. Just tighten the damper adjustment a little bit. My encore is doing this as well. I just did a partial rebuild this fall and replaced all the gaskets. My stove has just been to hot for me to adjust my damper.  I really notice it when I’ve let the stove get hotter than normal before closing the damper.


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## NewGuy132 (Feb 17, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> It’s a new stove thus a new gasket. The gasket has just “broke in “ sort of speak. Just tighten the damper adjustment a little bit. My encore is doing this as well. I just did a partial rebuild this fall and replaced all the gaskets. My stove has just been to hot for me to adjust my damper.  I really notice it when I’ve let the stove get hotter than normal before closing the damper.


Excellent.  I'll give that a try tonight.


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## NewGuy132 (Feb 18, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> It’s a new stove thus a new gasket. The gasket has just “broke in “ sort of speak. Just tighten the damper adjustment a little bit. My encore is doing this as well. I just did a partial rebuild this fall and replaced all the gaskets. My stove has just been to hot for me to adjust my damper.  I really notice it when I’ve let the stove get hotter than normal before closing the damper.


This was probably the problem.  I went to make the adjustment and the locking nut wasn't even hand tight.  I turned the adjustment 1/2 a turn and snugged down the locking nut.  While I was in there and it was cool I checked a few more nuts/screws and both screws that hold the top on were not even had tight and one of the screws for the glass was loose.  Now I just need to wait for a cool day to run it again,  its in the 60's yesterday and today.

Thanks again for the idea.  I read the manual probably 4 times, but didn't remember that the damper was adjustable.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 18, 2022)

NewGuy132 said:


> This was probably the problem.  I went to make the adjustment and the locking nut wasn't even hand tight.  I turned the adjustment 1/2 a turn and snugged down the locking nut.  While I was in there and it was cool I checked a few more nuts/screws and both screws that hold the top on were not even had tight and one of the screws for the glass was loose.  Now I just need to wait for a cool day to run it again,  its in the 60's yesterday and today.
> 
> Thanks again for the idea.  I read the manual probably 4 times, but didn't remember that the damper was adjustable.


You will fined that with use, cooling and reheating that things may loosen up a little. Things  expand, I did my glass this fall.. new gasket.. I know the screws were tight.. 2 backed out some.. it happens.. my stove had the past 2 days off.. ill light it tonight..


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## dtholloway28 (Feb 24, 2022)

Do you all like the Montpellier insert?  Is the blower required to get good heat?


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## Woodsplitter67 (Feb 25, 2022)

dtholloway28 said:


> Do you all like the Montpellier insert?  Is the blower required to get good heat?


Just a heads up. Not everyone has an insert, me I have a wood stove. Its a VC. If you're looking to get heat from the insert, yes, you will need a blower. A blower will pull the warm air frome in between the insert and the fireplace area that's surrounding it. You will also need a block off plate so the heat doesn't go up the chimney.


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## rev1911 (Mar 7, 2022)

First off, want to say “thank you”!  This forum has been an amazing resource during the past few months while I searched for a stove to heat our Colorado high country home. Ended up with a VC Defiant and have been thoroughly pleased since install a few weeks back.  I am SO GLAD to no longer be propane-dependent.  

 When reloading for today’s burn, I noticed the paint (?) on the underside of the lid is flaking off. We’ve been doing all night burns (8ish hours with hot coals left over in the AM) but nothing scorching hot. Is this normal? Or did I torch the lid with a too-hot fire?
	

		
			
		

		
	







Thanks in advance!


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## clancey (Mar 7, 2022)

That's a pretty stove and thought I would put a picture of it on here..Someone will come along and help you with your question because I have no experience with all of this: old mrs clancey




__





						Vermont Castings Defiant
					

Wood Heat sells the Vermont Castings Defiant, plus wood burning stoves from other top manufacturers. Visit one of our showrooms today!




					www.woodheat.com


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## Diabel (Mar 7, 2022)

Totally normal.
This is not paint flaking but some flakes of soot. Keep burning


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## rev1911 (Mar 7, 2022)

Diabel said:


> Totally normal.
> This is not paint flaking but some flakes of soot. Keep burning


Right on, thank you!  Kinda figured it wasn't a big deal but wanted to confirm.


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## RandyBoBandy (Mar 8, 2022)

rev1911 said:


> First off, want to say “thank you”!  This forum has been an amazing resource during the past few months while I searched for a stove to heat our Colorado high country home. Ended up with a VC Defiant and have been thoroughly pleased since install a few weeks back.  I am SO GLAD to no longer be propane-dependent.
> 
> When reloading for today’s burn, I noticed the paint (?) on the underside of the lid is flaking off. We’ve been doing all night burns (8ish hours with hot coals left over in the AM) but nothing scorching hot. Is this normal? Or did I torch the lid with a too-hot fire?
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum and congrats on your purchase. The griddle tops are not painted. What you are seeing is creosote/soot flaking off.


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## bert670 (Mar 9, 2022)

VC Dauntless owners- careful tightening the nut on the top loading door handle, used a socket wrench with what I would consider moderately light pressure, and it snapped right where the thread ends and becomes the handle. Reached out to the dealer in hopes of getting it replaced under warranty.


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## Barkpeeler (Mar 9, 2022)

Hello all,
I've been creeping around on the forum for a while and decided to finally join. I'm running an Intrepid II Model 1990. I bought it used a couple years ago and put all new gaskets, throat hood, and back plates in it. I made a bottoms heat shield for it and it has a rear shield as well.

I recently pulled the back and looked at my cat, and I'll need to replace it, missing some cells and some broken, but still seems to be working. I pulled it because I was having drafting issues and needed to clean out the refractory.

I have definitely experienced the nuclear scenario on the stove...which is probably why my cat is the way it is.  

I don't have any probes on the stove yet, but am definitely considering them.  

Should I install a probe before I block off or partially block off the secondary air, or would this be ok to do without a probe installed?

Can I put the probe through where the current one for the bi metal spring is, or should I drill a new hole through the refractory (this hole is to the right of the secondary air)? I'll attach a couple pictures.

Looks like I also have EPA holes up front that feed into the ash pan area.

There is also a gap between the stove and the air control box and I can see fire/red through it when the stove is operating and the room is dark. Should I consider a gasket in this area?

Thanks in advance.


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2022)

EPA holes?  Are they threaded or clear?  They may be  boost air intake ports for easier starts.


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## Barkpeeler (Mar 9, 2022)

begreen said:


> EPA holes?  Are they threaded or clear?  They may be  boost air intake ports for easier starts.


They are not threaded.... Are EPA holes threaded or clear through?


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2022)

Barkpeeler said:


> They are not threaded.... Are EPA holes threaded or clear through?


No, I was wondering if a potential accessory attached there, that's all. Are the holes behind the fireback? They may be for secondary combustion.


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## Barkpeeler (Mar 9, 2022)

begreen said:


> No, I was wondering if a potential accessory attached there, that's all. Are the holes behind the fireback? They may be for secondary combustion.


They are up front on the bottom side, almost under the doors. They lead right into the area under the ash pan. On this stove I have to open both doors to access the ash drawer. The picture was taken by lying down in front of the stove.


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## begreen (Mar 9, 2022)

Thanks, it was hard to tell from the pics.  I would suspect they might be boost air ports, for easier fire starting, but they may feed the airwash.


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## Barkpeeler (Mar 9, 2022)

I think you might be on to something with the air wash. Thanks.


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## RandyBoBandy (Mar 15, 2022)

Barkpeeler said:


> Hello all,
> I've been creeping around on the forum for a while and decided to finally join. I'm running an Intrepid II Model 1990. I bought it used a couple years ago and put all new gaskets, throat hood, and back plates in it. I made a bottoms heat shield for it and it has a rear shield as well.
> 
> I recently pulled the back and looked at my cat, and I'll need to replace it, missing some cells and some broken, but still seems to be working. I pulled it because I was having drafting issues and needed to clean out the refractory.
> ...


I don’t have any experience with the intrepid, however, I presume the hole next to the secondary probe is for your cat probe. Take a 1/4” drill bit and by hand carefully drill a hole in the refractory box. I would start here before any secondary mods. Some have completely blocked off their secondary and some leave them operating. My encore in my house is completely blocked. I didn’t even install the secondary probe when I put a new refractory box in. My defiant at my cabin is fully  functional. I haven’t witnessed any problems with that stove. You should also get a stove top thermo and a stove pipe thermo. VCs are a three thermo stove.


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## Barkpeeler (Mar 27, 2022)

RandyBoBandy said:


> I don’t have any experience with the intrepid, however, I presume the hole next to the secondary probe is for your cat probe. Take a 1/4” drill bit and by hand carefully drill a hole in the refractory box. I would start here before any secondary mods. Some have completely blocked off their secondary and some leave them operating. My encore in my house is completely blocked. I didn’t even install the secondary probe when I put a new refractory box in. My defiant at my cabin is fully  functional. I haven’t witnessed any problems with that stove. You should also get a stove top thermo and a stove pipe thermo. VCs are a three thermo stove.


Thanks, I'll look into getting the probes and digital read outs then.  For the cat probe, are most people holding it in place with stove cement ?  
Regarding stove top temp, is this another probe? I currently use an IR thermo to check the top. I have one of those magnetic bi metal stove top thermos on top too, but it's always off by a minimum of 20 deg f.  

Not sure how I'd do stove pipe probe. I have a double walled pipe from the stove to ceiling.


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## THenney (May 11, 2022)

Hi guys! I know it's May, so it might be a long shot if anyone is paying much attention here, but I still had my stove running last week, so I figured this is worth a shot. I have a Defiant 1975-CAT-C. This past winter was it's first season. It ran beautifully once I figured out my wood selection and processes (with a lot of wisdom gleaned from here). Since this is a new stove and I'm a new owner I was wondering if anyone would share words of wisdom for spring maintenance to put it to bed ready for next year. I'm planning on cleaning the chimney, thoroughly cleaning the stove (but input here would be appreciated) and leaving all the doors gapped to reduce gasket compression over the summer and let the stove "breathe" since it can be very humid in south east Nebraska during the summer. What am I missing? Many thanks and happy wood hoarding from all us VC newbs!


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## MacEntyre (May 14, 2022)

Folks, I just purchased a 1992 VC Defiant Encore Model 2190, "Biscuit" colored... hasn't been used for at least 8 years. I've studied up on how to get it apart and check the cat, but apparently I should have studied more. I couldn't figure out how to remove the Lower Fireback inside the burn chamber, so I went in through the back. I never got the back off, and a bolt on the back broke. The Refractory Assembly fell apart but the cat came out. It looks good, so I should have left well enough alone! Now I need to source the Refractory, Refractory Plate and gaskets.

Found the Refractory here... much better price than another that came up in my search.

I found this thread on removing the Refractory, and this one on rebuilding a 2190, so I will study up on how to get the stove back into service before the cold arrives next fall! Any tips or tricks to make it easier will be most appreciated.


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## begreen (May 15, 2022)

Visually the enamel looks good. That's a good find on the refractory assembly.


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## defiant3 (May 16, 2022)

Looks like pre-ingiting combustualization to me.


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## defiant3 (May 16, 2022)

Actually normal deposits there, no worries.


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## MacEntyre (May 16, 2022)

Plumbers Stock canceled my order and flagged it as Possibly Fraudulent... I replied and asked what I can do to clarify things. I hope it works out.


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## begreen (May 16, 2022)

That's odd. Maybe it would be better to call them.


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## MacEntyre (May 16, 2022)

begreen said:


> That's odd. Maybe it would be better to call them.


Called, sent email, responded on their Customer Service ticket.  No response today, mebbe this evening.


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## MacEntyre (May 17, 2022)

Turns out if you use a credit card with PlumbersStock.com and their 3rd party verification fails, the only option is PayPal or a personal check. I hope PayPal worked and the product will arrive, because their price is by far the lowest  for a Defiant Encore refractory.

PayPal robo-called three times to tell me the transaction needs to be verified... I called PPal customer support, but it all looks good. They have no idea what that's all about. 

PlumbersStock .com has a 30 day lead time on the Refractory. I'll let y'all know how it turns out.


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## Rusty18 (Jun 7, 2022)

Other than the cobwebs the vertical part is still looking pretty good!  A few of the non believers at work can’t wrap their mind around it that it is still that clean after 4 winters of burning pine.


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## Frosty29 (Jun 29, 2022)

I’m new here. Just purchased a Encore in flat black with the transitional style doors. I always wanted a wood stove in my house and specifically a Vermont Castings. I heard they were cranking out real garbage at one point but the new ones have a better refractory. I’m hoping I didn’t buy a piece of junk. I will be using it to take the edge off my heating system on those really cold days and weekends. 

How are these new stoves?


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## bholler (Jun 29, 2022)

Frosty29 said:


> I’m new here. Just purchased a Encore in flat black with the transitional style doors. I always wanted a wood stove in my house and specifically a Vermont Castings. I heard they were cranking out real garbage at one point but the new ones have a better refractory. I’m hoping I didn’t buy a piece of junk. I will be using it to take the edge off my heating system on those really cold days and weekends.
> 
> How are these new stoves?


They are certainly much better than they have been for a long time.  Still wouldn't be my choice but I don't tell people to run from them anymore


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## Frosty29 (Jun 29, 2022)

If it’s just replacing gaskets and maybe caulking the inside every ten years I can handle that. I’m pretty handy. I remember years ago the insides were styrofoam of sorts. Now it seems stronger.


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## begreen (Jun 29, 2022)

Frosty29 said:


> If it’s just replacing gaskets and maybe caulking the inside every ten years I can handle that. I’m pretty handy. I remember years ago the insides were styrofoam of sorts. Now it seems stronger.


The big work and expenses are not the gaskets. The refractory assembly is the weak part. In the older models, this would have to be replaced every few years and it was not cheap. VC now has a parent company that improved the refractory package so that it lasts a lot longer. If you are using the stove mostly just nights and weekends, it could go quite a while before needing replacement. Read back in this thread for frequent mentions of servicing this.


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## Frosty29 (Jun 29, 2022)

I guess the new refractory unities haven’t been out long enough to know how long they will last.

I’m excited for this stove and when I’m home I plan on putting some woods through it.

My question its how do you not over fire it. Can you let it rip with the thermostat open up and flue open when you want to see flames? Or will you get decent flames with the flue closed and you are using the refractory box?


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## bholler (Jun 29, 2022)

Frosty29 said:


> I guess the new refractory unities haven’t been out long enough to know how long they will last.
> 
> I’m excited for this stove and when I’m home I plan on putting some woods through it.
> 
> My question its how do you not over fire it. Can you let it rip with the thermostat open up and flue open when you want to see flames? Or will you get decent flames with the flue closed and you are using the refractory box?


I have replaced a couple combustion chambers already but it's definitely more durable than the old ones.


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## Diabel (Jun 29, 2022)

For any modern stove you will need well seasoned wood (at least less than 20% moisture or two years plus of seasoning) and some apparatus (moisture meter, thermometer, cat probe ideally digital). 

Start with that😜


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## Rusty18 (Jun 29, 2022)

2nd the cat probe (digital) and well seasoned wood.  I have an encore from the 90’s that came with the house, previous owner had it fired up a dozen times in 20 years (maybe).  It’s been an experience learning to live with its quirks but so far I haven’t  had any major trouble out of mine.  

But seriously get an auber monitor and cat probe, you’ll sleep better knowing exactly where it’s running.


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## Frosty29 (Jun 30, 2022)

Do you think it’s worthwhile to buy a spare refractory for this stove?


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## Diabel (Jun 30, 2022)

I would not.


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## bholler (Jun 30, 2022)

Frosty29 said:


> Do you think it’s worthwhile to buy a spare refractory for this stove?


There was a time it may have made sense.  But now that they are owned by hht their parts availability and customer service has improved allot


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## Frosty29 (Jun 30, 2022)

bholler said:


> There was a time it may have made sense.  But now that they are owned by hht their parts availability and customer service has improved allot


That makes me feel a lot better about my purchase. It’s basically the stove I always wanted and it will look good in my living room. I’m really excited. Now I have to figure out how much wood to order. 1800 sq ft house on Long Island. Any suggestions? I work from home for the most part so I can keep this stove going for long periods of time.


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## Diabel (Jun 30, 2022)

The wood you are about to order will likely be fresh /unseasoned. With it your first burning season will be a struggle (we all did in our first yr). In your case it would be best to order three yrs worth of wood. Stack it all top cover it and hope it will be better next year.


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## begreen (Jun 30, 2022)

See if you can get some split ash wood. If so, order at least 2 cords, it will dry quicker. Then if you have room, another 2-3 cords of split maple, beech, oak, hickory, etc.


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## Frosty29 (Jun 30, 2022)

Thank you everyone for the advice. Any other tips or tricks with this stove? What is the best moisture meter to get?


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## begreen (Jun 30, 2022)

A General MMD4E works well for me. 








						Pin-Type LCD Moisture Meter
					

The Pin-Type LCD Moisture Meter is ideal for use in woodworking, building construction, home inspection, lumber selection and water damage restoration.




					generaltools.com


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## Frosty29 (Jul 1, 2022)

Ok cool. I’ll pick one up. 

I ordered 2 cords of wood to start. The company says it’s over a year old but I figured if I get it now it will give it some more time to dry out. In the mean time I’m picking free wood off the side of the road for the next coming years. I have to get creative on how to store all of this.


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## begreen (Jul 1, 2022)

We'll see. It may have been sitting as logs in the yard for a year, but will not start drying until it is split. When you get the wood, take an ax or splitting maul and resplit some of the thicker pieces. Then test for moisture on the freshly exposed inside face of the wood.


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## Frosty29 (Jul 1, 2022)

My brother in law got wood from them last year and he said it was seasoned. Best I’m going to do at this point. I’ll just have to process my own moving forward. I live on a 1/4 acre suburban lot so I don’t have endless room.  I have logs hidden behind bushes and will be stacking wood against sheds and fences


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## Jmorg (Jul 5, 2022)

Anyone else ready for summer to end so we can get these wood stoves fired up? I'm gettin kinda antsy here!


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## begreen (Jul 5, 2022)

Jmorg said:


> Anyone else ready for summer to end so we can get these wood stoves fired up? I'm gettin kinda antsy here!


Nope, definitely not. Summer just started here.


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## Frosty29 (Jul 7, 2022)

I’m curious how the downdraft design of the Encores work without the catalyst? Does it get efficient secondary burn? Does anyone run them without the catalyst?


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## Jmorg (Jul 7, 2022)

Frosty29 said:


> I’m curious how the downdraft design of the Encores work without the catalyst? Does it get efficient secondary burn? Does anyone run them without the catalyst?


I don’t think you can use the Encore as a flex burn stove. The Aspen, Intrepid and the Dauntless are the only ones you can use without a cat. Unless something has changed


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jul 7, 2022)

Jmorg said:


> I don’t think you can use the Encore as a flex burn stove. The Aspen, Intrepid and the Dauntless are the only ones you can use without a cat. Unless something has changed


I have an encore.. mine is a 2n1 flexburn


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## Jmorg (Jul 7, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> I have an encore.. mine is a 2n1 flexburn


Do they still make them that way?


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jul 8, 2022)

Frosty29 said:


> I’m curious how the downdraft design of the Encores work without the catalyst? Does it get efficient secondary burn? Does anyone run them without the catalyst?



My stove is the 2040.. I run mine without the cat sometimes, mostly to take the chill of and non long burns. Your better off leaving the cat in if your  closing the damper if you going to burn for hours like that. the cat will keep the stove pipe warm and that will keep the draft up, otherwise there's a good chance of the stove stalling on you and not getting a full burn or back puffing .. When I start my stove up in October.. its just a fire here and there.. no cat. as my needs increase and I want a longer duration burn the cat goes in


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## Jmorg (Jul 9, 2022)

Do you all suggest leaving the damper closed or open during the warmer months when the stove isn’t in use? We get a lot of humidity here in VA and I don’t want rust forming on the inside of the stove. I put rice in the ash pan last summer and that seemed to help.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jul 9, 2022)

Jmorg said:


> Do you all suggest leaving the damper closed or open during the warmer months when the stove isn’t in use? We get a lot of humidity here in VA and I don’t want rust forming on the inside of the stove. I put rice in the ash pan last summer and that seemed to help.


I keep ming closed but not locked


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## Jmorg (Jul 9, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> I keep ming closed but not locked


Does your damper still close as well as it did when it was new? I’ve tightened the adjustment screw on the damper but still doesn’t quite feel as locked down anymore.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jul 9, 2022)

Jmorg said:


> Does your damper still close as well as it did when it was new? I’ve tightened the adjustment screw on the damper but still doesn’t quite feel as locked down anymore.



Its definitely not going to be as tight.. the gasket is compressed.  Mine is the same way, same for the door gaskets. I did them in October, They are still air tight, but nowhere nears as har to close


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## Frosty29 (Jul 10, 2022)

Woodsplitter67 said:


> My stove is the 2040.. I run mine without the cat sometimes, mostly to take the chill of and non long burns. Your better off leaving the cat in if your  closing the damper if you going to burn for hours like that. the cat will keep the stove pipe warm and that will keep the draft up, otherwise there's a good chance of the stove stalling on you and not getting a full burn or back puffing .. When I start my stove up in October.. its just a fire here and there.. no cat. as my needs increase and I want a longer duration burn the cat goes in


This is good to know. I’m going to have several months of just having an evening fire. It can still be warm here in November during the day. So for those evening fires would you just leave the damper open?


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## NewGuy132 (Jul 13, 2022)

I just started a new job and have been pretty much been left alone so far this week with nothing to do.  So I just reread my manual for my Intrepid Flexburn.  After reading the manual for probably the 4th time in a year I think that last year I wasn't running it hot enough.

Where is everyone taking their STT at?  Last year I was taking it in the middle, directly behind the griddle.  The manual says that temps should be taken on the griddle, but my griddle seems to run 75-100 degrees cooler than the enamel behind it.  This could be why I am not running hot enough.

Also I am going to have the attic insulated this summer.  We will see how much that affects the stove in winter.  My guess is not much due to leaky windows.

ETA:   I also just found this gem. 
"Dry wood burns readily with a good chimney draft. But with modern stoves, wood can be too dry and too volatile. Smoke and combustible gases can ‘gas out’ from the wood quickly and densely enough to overload the combustion system. If you hear a rumbling or roaring noise (like a propane torch) from the stove, that is a sign that the stove is over-firing."

So I don't want to be hearing that blowtorch sound?  I thought that it was normal.


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## newguyjoe (Jul 13, 2022)

I also thought that sound was normal. often enough if i dont hear any sound like the rumble either loud or just loud enough to hear there will be smoke coming out of the chimney top. when that happens i try to rearrange the wood and coals to fix it.


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## PatrickWR (Jul 18, 2022)

newguyjoe said:


> I also thought that sound was normal. often enough if i dont hear any sound like the rumble either loud or just loud enough to hear there will be smoke coming out of the chimney top. when that happens i try to rearrange the wood and coals to fix it.


I think it's normal? I think the passage from the owners manual is just to alert you to the possibility of over-firing. I get the blowtorch sound for a few minutes after I close the damper on my Dauntless. My temps are never anywhere near overfiring.


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## NewGuy132 (Jul 19, 2022)

PatrickWR said:


> I think it's normal? I think the passage from the owners manual is just to alert you to the possibility of over-firing. I get the blowtorch sound for a few minutes after I close the damper on my Dauntless. My temps are never anywhere near overfiring.


I think that the more quiet blow torch sound that stops after a few minutes is normal.  I have come down to when my wife has loaded up the stove and she put a split right in front of the refractory and you can easily hear the sound from 15-20 feet away.  The cat temp probe says that it isn't over heating, but it in in the top 1/4 of the operate catalyst zone.  I think what is happening in those instances is that the split is off gassing and the gasses are going straight out of the firebox back towards the cat and then burning.   Im assuming that this is the reason that I get super high (not overfiring) cat numbers and not so great STT.   

Typically I will load the stove and not put any wood in front of the refractory.  This leads to even smaller loads of my already tiny Intrepid.


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## newguyjoe (Jul 19, 2022)

NewGuy132 said:


> I think that the more quiet blow torch sound that stops after a few minutes is normal.  I have come down to when my wife has loaded up the stove and she put a split right in front of the refractory and you can easily hear the sound from 15-20 feet away.  The cat temp probe says that it isn't over heating, but it in in the top 1/4 of the operate catalyst zone.  I think what is happening in those instances is that the split is off gassing and the gasses are going straight out of the firebox back towards the cat and then burning.   Im assuming that this is the reason that I get super high (not overfiring) cat numbers and not so great STT.
> 
> Typically I will load the stove and not put any wood in front of the refractory.  This leads to even smaller loads of my already tiny Intrepid.


What probe are you using with your stove ?


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## NewGuy132 (Jul 19, 2022)

newguyjoe said:


> What probe are you using with your stove ?


The one that comes with it.  Yes I should get one if the digital ones.


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## Frosty29 (Jul 19, 2022)

Does this sound to code for a VC Encore install?

1” hardi backer using two 1/2” over 2x4 studs to make up the thickness of the plaster walls.  Putting stone veneer over hardi backer. 

48” hearth pad

Between the hardi backer and stone that is at least 2 inches. Stove needs 11 inches of clearance. With the 48” hearth pad is I set the stove at 10 inches to the stone that will give me my 11” to combustibles and 16 inches of front clearance.  If I read the diagram correctly I would need 49” from front of hearth pad to combustibles. I should have about 50” due to the hardibacker and stone veneer pushing the hearth pad out.


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2022)

The Encore 2040 requires R=1.06 thermal resistance for the hearth.
 1" of Hardibacker provides R=.52. The stone veneer does not add much more, like .18 for 2"., or R=.70 for the whole sandwich.  If Durock NexGen was used then two 1/2" sheets will equal R .78. Three sheets would bring it up toR=1.17. Another option would be 1/2" of Micore insulation board under the Hardiebacker.


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## Frosty29 (Jul 22, 2022)

begreen said:


> The Encore 2040 requires R=1.06 thermal resistance for the hearth.
> 1" of Hardibacker provides R=.52. The stone veneer does not add much more, like .18 for 2"., or R=.70 for the whole sandwich.  If Durock NexGen was used then two 1/2" sheets will equal R .78. Three sheets would bring it up toR=1.17. Another option would be 1/2" of Micore insulation board under the Hardiebacker.


I didn’t know it needed any thermal resistant but just a 11” clearance from combustibles. So am I better off kicking the hearth pad a inch from the stone that will be on the wall?


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2022)

The wall clearance spec is independent of the hearth insulation requirement. One is a distance measurement and the other is thermal resistance. 

Is this for the Encore 2040?


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## Frosty29 (Jul 22, 2022)

begreen said:


> The wall clearance spec is independent of the hearth insulation requirement. One is a distance measurement and the other is thermal resistance.
> 
> Is this for the Encore 2040?


Yes it’s a 2040.  So I am now officially confused. I thought that if you had the stove 11” from the wall you didn’t need any thermal protection?

My question is does the rock and hardibacker count as part of the combustible wall? According to this it does. https://nasdonline.org/1248/d001052/wood-stove-installation-and-operation.html

I am being told different things by different people. 

A 48” hearth pad would fit nicely where I want to put it but I want to make sure everything is to code.


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2022)

Your post started out describing the hearth pad construction. That is all I am referring to. This is independent of the wall clearance requirements.  Here is the section from the manual:

*Floor Protection *

A tremendous amount of heat radiates from the bottom plate of your stove. The floor area directly under and around the stove will require protection from radiant heat as well as from stray sparks or embers that may escape the firebox. 

Heat protection is provided with the use of the Bottom Heat Shield supplied with the stove. 

Most installations will require the bottom heat shield to be attached. Only when the stove is placed on a completely noncombustible surface such as unpainted concrete over earth may it be used without the heat shield. 

With the bottom heat shield installed the Encore® 2040 was tested using a 1/2" (13mm) non-combustible hearth material with a thermal conductivity, (k) = 0.47 BTU - in/ hr - ft2 -°F,* resulting in the requirement of providing a total thermal resistance (R) of 1.06.* (Refer to _“How to Determine if Alternate Floor Protection Materials are Acceptable” _section.) The floor protector may be covered with a decorative noncombustible material if desired. Do not obstruct the space under the heater.

The hearth pad heat resistance requirement is independent of the wall clearance requirement. They are two different, independent requirements. The minimum hearth pad size for this stove is listed as 43" wide by 49" deep, with an extension if the stove is rear vented.


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## Frosty29 (Jul 22, 2022)

begreen said:


> Your post started out describing the hearth pad construction. That is all I am referring to. This is independent of the wall clearance requirements.  Here is the section from the manual:
> 
> *Floor Protection *
> 
> ...


I’m in the US so I need a smaller hearth pad. The one I’m purchasing will have enough thermal resistance. My question has to do with the distance of the hearth pad from the wall. Does the Hardi backer and stone count as part of that combustible wall? Should I space the hearth pad 1” from the wall?


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## begreen (Jul 22, 2022)

Frosty29 said:


> I’m in the US so I need a smaller hearth pad. The one I’m purchasing will have enough thermal resistance. My question has to do with the distance of the hearth pad from the wall. Does the Hardi backer and stone count as part of that combustible wall? Should I space the hearth pad 1” from the wall?


Apologies, it didn't say the hearth was to be purchased. The clearance is measured to the nearest combustible which would be the studs behind the hardibacker.


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## vernorz (Jul 25, 2022)

Finally got our Dauntless installed 8 months after ordering it.


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## Woodsplitter67 (Jul 25, 2022)

vernorz said:


> Finally got our Dauntless installed 8 months after ordering it.
> View attachment 297339
> 
> View attachment 297341



Looks good.. happy times ahead.. hope you have lots of dry wood


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## begreen (Jul 25, 2022)

That looks great. Did they transition to a stainless liner above the visible stove pipe? 
Nice hearth and floors too. Are they maple?


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## vernorz (Jul 25, 2022)

begreen said:


> That looks great. Did they transition to a stainless liner above the visible stove pipe?
> Nice hearth and floors too. Are they maple?


Yes, there is an insulated stainless liner above the pipe, very happy with how it turned out. I'm not positive on what the floors are,  but I've always thought they looked like maple as well.


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## t0asty (Jul 26, 2022)

Currently have a 1975 Defiant but just bought a new VC Encore. Very excited to be able to see the fire AND feel the warmth 😊. I plan on having it hot most of the winter. Have a large stack of hard wood that's been covered/seasoned for 2 years now. It's hot here in NJ now but prepping for the cold months.


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## Jmorg (Jul 26, 2022)

begreen said:


> Nope, definitely not. Summer just started here.


I'm sure your summers are much more enjoyable than ours here in VA...lol


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## begreen (Jul 26, 2022)

Jmorg said:


> I'm sure your summers are much more enjoyable than ours here in VA...lol


Yes, I love our summers.


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## Jmorg (Sep 12, 2022)

Are there any Dauntless owners in this thread who burn with a cat? Trying to order one from Condar  if I can, but I don't see one   specifically for the Dauntless. Anyone know if it takes the same size as the Intrepid?


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## begreen (Sep 12, 2022)

I would get the first cat from the dealer that sold the stove for full warranty coverage.


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## Jmorg (Sep 12, 2022)

begreen said:


> I would get the first cat from the dealer that sold the stove for full warranty coverage.


Yes, I was thinking that too...was just trying to save a little money but probably a good idea to get it from VC.


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## begreen (Sep 12, 2022)

Closing this thread. Time for a new heating season.





						2022/23 VC Owner thread
					

New season, new thread. Let the fires begin!




					www.hearth.com


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