# I'm trying to gather some info. on RSF fireplaces.



## 21acrewoods (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm comparing them to the Quadra-Fire 7100 with two heat zones.  I have a 2300 sq ft multi-level newer construction and am worried about evenly heating all rooms of my house.  I haven't had a chance to visit my nearest RSF dealer and was hoping I could show up there with some good questions for them.

Any thoughts are welcome.


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## begreen (Feb 5, 2009)

Customer looking for some RSF information, calling LLigetfa to the front desk.

I believe some RSF models are ductable. In the meantime do a search on RSF here in the forums. They have a good reputation. You might also want to compare KozyHeat fireplaces.


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## LLigetfa (Feb 5, 2009)

I have the Onyx with the 635 cfm central blower option.  15 years ago, with my former home, I had the same unit and sucked hot air up from the top.  In my current home I went against the published practice of blowing hot air and instead blow cold air up from underneath.  That allowed me to put a furnace filter inline and everyone knows cold air is easier to move than hot air.  My 2200 sq ft home is open concept and drawing floor level air at the opposite end of the house works well for me.

If I had the choice today, I would go with the larger Opel3 but that wasn't available ten years ago.


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## 21acrewoods (Feb 5, 2009)

The Kozyheat models didn't seem to have the effeciency of the Quadra-Fire.  Do they offer something my nearest dealer didn't point out to me.

I can suck air off of the floor in the cold rooms of the house and blow that air into the room with the fireplace. correct????


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## LLigetfa (Feb 5, 2009)

21acrewoods said:
			
		

> I can suck air off of the floor in the cold rooms of the house and blow that air into the room with the fireplace. correct????


The Onyx has an 8" entry in the bottom of the unit for a duct and I have the duct going down through the floor.  The blower is drawing air off the crawlspace floor below and blowing up to the stove.  Essentially it's a 4 foot high basement which is classified as a conditioned crawlspace.  The warm air is drawn down at the entry to the crawlspace to make up for what I draw out.  This air warms the main floor and eventually drops to the crawlspace floor as it cools only to be picked up and recirc'd.


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## mlouwho (Feb 6, 2009)

love the RSF Opel & Delta, can't gp wrong with either of them


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## jrousell (Feb 11, 2009)

I have owned an RSF Opel for about 6 years now.  We have it centrally ducted and distribute the heat throughout our 3000+ sq. ft. house.

What specific questions do you have?


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## bgoodwithwood (Feb 12, 2009)

I also have the RSF Onyx with the blower in the back.  It is not setup for central heating but keeps us nice and toasty.  It does struggle a bit when the temps go way down and I have not had much luck with a good long overnight burn.  Other than that, the stove is well made and the flame display is great.


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## ClubbyG (Feb 13, 2009)

This is my first year with an RSF Opel II. After I bought it, I often wondered if I should have bought the Kozyheat Z42 instead since the Opel mandates 7" ICC chimney =$$$$, but overall I like it very much. I am heating roughly 2200 sq ft. (my wife has most of the other rooms filled with crap and hence the doors are closed on most rooms 

When temps drop to 5-15 f, I agree with bgood--it struggles, but I think that is due to my less than seasoned wood. I have finally managed to get some good overnight burns, following the advice on these forums of buying a unit with a large firebox (Opel II = 3.6 cu ft)

The best advice I can give you is to avoid ANY venting options until you get it installed and to see what the unit does in your environment (just like my dealer warned). Wait and see how the unit behaves in your home. I feel like I have totally NEUTERED my stove by installing a gravity venting kit on it I replaced a heatilator with the Opel in an existing internal chase, and figured a vent on the side would be nice to spread heat around the room (and also cover the hole where the previous vent was).

Since having done that, however, my unit often now only gets secondary flames on the right side at times, with consistent foggy glass on the left. This coincides with the vent being on the left hand side above the doghouse, so by nature I would guess the firebox is colder on that side. Not sure if design flaw or just mother nature... 

Come spring, I am ripping out the gravity vent and going back to plain stock heat out the front louvre!

After many soul-searching days of staring at the expensive 7" stack rising above my roof, I am now content...lol. BUT...spending hours trimming up the free and oversized wood I get my from my father in law, I still sometimes wonder how the 22" log capacity of the Kozyheat z42 and 6 " chimney would have fared. Alas, I have accepted the 18" max log size for the Opel II...

With 2300 sq ft, I would recommend OPEL II or III from RSF (same exact units except II has 2 doors). Then, also compare with the Kozyheat as BeGreen mentioned. 
If it were ever possible, I would love to see a 'shootout' between the RSF and Kozyheat units based upon total price of stove+chimney and some scientific formula of btu's. Either way, they both seem like good choices!

As for me, I can honestly recommend the RSF Opel II with the 18" and venting caveats...

Also, FWIW, the Opel II + III are NOT EPA certified without the cat option, but they have a secondary burn tube, and I can attest that they produce little smoke with the right wood and a good deal of heat, so they must be pretty darn close!

Good luck in your quest! I'm still a newb, but I've learned a GREAT deal from this forum and from many hours spent sipping bourbon and enjoying (studying) the flames from my Opel II.


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## bgoodwithwood (Feb 13, 2009)

Clubby is right on the money.  I think the ICC 7" Class A S/S chimney cost me just about as much as the Onyx stove did.  But, like in many things, you get what you pay for.  I have had the chimney swept and each sweep remarks at just how little buildup ends up in the chimney.  I have a vacustack cap on the pipe as well to keep positive draft and have had no issues.  Now, once I get the overnight burn down I will be psyched.  I still think it is something that I am doing as I have only been a woodburner for about 3 years. . .and there is still much to learn. . . .


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## jrousell (Feb 13, 2009)

ICC chimney is one of the things that I loved about the stove.  It relaly is top of the line chimney pipe.  From the research I did it was worth the extra money in my book.   is tested against stricter standards than most HT pipe you buy in the states...

but-- all chimney pipe of quality is expensive now...  I think you ahve to go with eth stove you want...

I looked at kozy's line as well as others... there are many good units.

my suggestion is to look very closely at the install manuals for each stove you are loking at.  They all have slight differences in their ducting setup[s, as well as having slight differences in how you stone around them....    The devil is in the details...  one of the  ZC  units didn't let you put stone  facing right onto the stove, but instead had an air gap.... that was no good for me...  others had slightely more or less advantages ducting setups for me....

 For me I wanted the biggest possible and strongest made firebox too... central ducting was a must for me...  others might want a smaller unit, or able to settle with just pushing the heat into an adjacent room...

 I have a drafty 3000 sq ft house and the Opel will heat it  no problem.  On those -20 F nights it has to run around the clock though... but that said- in my house with all its drafts on a  -20 night- I expect ANY single stove would be pushed to the limit.


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## jrousell (Feb 13, 2009)

the security chimneys brand BIS stoves  are also worth a look in my book.  The ultra/ultima and panorama all are worth consideration .  The panorama is a nice looking unit-- and has Cat if you want super long burns overnight...

 Napolean also puts out a relaly big sized ZC unit now  that was not available 7 years ago when I was looking...


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## LLigetfa (Feb 13, 2009)

ClubbyG said:
			
		

> I still sometimes wonder how the 22" log capacity of the Kozyheat z42 and 6 " chimney would have fared. Alas, I have accepted the 18" max log size for the Opel II...


I buck all my own wood, so the 20 inch length (23" max) on the Onyx is nice as longer wood stacks a bit more stable and my stacks are 9 feet tall.  The shorter length on the Opel would be nicer for those that buy their wood C/S/D as 20 inch isn't that common and putting shorter splits in a wider box doesn't bode well for long overnight burns.  I think the shorter splits and the dimensions of the Opel's box would lend itself to using the same length splits to load N/S or E/W.  N/S loading lets you get more BTUs per hour when you need it.

Since I did the doghouse air mod, my coals last longer on my overnight burns but yet I can open it up to burn down the coals quicker when it gets real cold and I need lots of heat.  When it gets down to -40, my Onyx struggles to keep up and the coals tend to build up.  I still wish I had the larger capacity of the Opel3 and wouldn't sweat the 2 inch difference in log length.  The taller box would take larger splits for overnight and leave more room for coal and ash buildup.

As for the chimney, IMHO that is not the place to cheap out.  Kinda like not buying a $5 crash helmet.


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## jrousell (Feb 13, 2009)

I regularly put logs over 20" into my Opel.. Is the Opel 2 smaller than the original Opel?


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## ClubbyG (Feb 13, 2009)

adkdadto4 said:
			
		

> I regularly put logs over 20" into my Opel.. Is the Opel 2 smaller than the original Opel?



I can take 20" toward the front, but definitely not in the back of the firebox, as the width is shorter. It looks much like the unit you have adkdadto4 (beautiful setup, btw!) Is the Opel smaller in the back of the firebox?

Not a huge deal as i expect to take down a bunch of trees this year and will cut and split them myself.

I agree with you all--the chimney is not the place to cheap out and i did notice before i bought that the chimney is rated to a much higher standard than others--3 30 minute chimney fires! A good reminder that I did indeed make the right choice.


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## annb (Mar 10, 2009)

ClubbyG

If you don't mind my asking, how much did you spend on your Opel, ducts, chimney, etc? How much chimney did you need? We're considering the Opel 3, and we're trying to determine how long before the propane savings has covered the price of the stove. 

Thanks, 

Ann


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## annb (Mar 10, 2009)

Adkdadto4,

Our house is a fairly drafty, old farmhouse with about 2900 sq ft. We are working to tighten it up a bit, but I'm just curious how much wood you burn in a year? 

Thanks, 

Ann


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## ClubbyG (Mar 12, 2009)

I think all told, for 16' ICC chimney (actually 18 or so feet except 2x30 deg. elbows as an offset), cap, roof bracing kit, cathedral ceiling radiation shield, factory flashing, stove unit itself with standard louvres (similar to other companies, you pay for a base unit and then have to pay more for the bloody vents and louvers), and a gravity venting kit for the side of my chase, it came out to around $5000... The stove itself was like $2500 and I spent probably the same amount on all the piping...Did the install myself with gracious help of members of this forum and more than a few calls to ICC-RSF.

I figure it will pay for itself in a few years, but more than that, the woodheat is so much more satisfying than the forced hot air furnace. I am ripping out the gravity vent. I got it to waft the heat around on the side, but it makes the stove heat unevenly with one door always turning brown and the other side clean as a whistle with good secondary flames...very irritating.


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## annb (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it and it does help. My two-story house will need about 30' of pipe. I love the two-story ... except when pricing chimney pipe! There's a dealer a couple of hours from here. I think I'll take a look at the fireplace.


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## ClubbyG (Mar 15, 2009)

Good Luck!

The RSF's are all definitely excellent stoves. For me, it would be a choice between the RSF or the Kozy Heats...All in all, I am happy with the Opel II....


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## annb (Aug 19, 2009)

adkdadto4, 

How well does the Opel with the central heating option do at moving warm air? Some guys say the ducting options never work well. Is the air hot when it comes out of your registers? Thanks.


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## jrousell (Aug 19, 2009)

annb said:
			
		

> adkdadto4,
> 
> How well does the Opel with the central heating option do at moving warm air? Some guys say the ducting options never work well. Is the air hot when it comes out of your registers? Thanks.



I think that you have to be careful what you are talking about when you say something does or does not work.

 for example - a single gravity duct might not move much air- especially if it has to go far in the duct.. gravity ducting alone helps- but still isn;t ideal -- think of it as a helper...

 but central ducting with a *"pull-side"  axial  blower *like I have works awesome- heats my whole 3000sq foot house.

the air noise   near teh fireplace is my only peeve.. when you are moving thta much air-- you hear a air whooshing noise in that room.. that is louder than I had anticipated.. but it definitely works as far as moving heat


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## Rob From Wisconsin (Aug 19, 2009)

We're in the market for a fireplace, and one of the shops we went to carries both Kozy Heat
& RSF. When it came to system pricing (fireplace & flue), they were both fairly close in price
(Fireplace more for one, Flue more expensive for another). In the end, I personally kinda like
the RSF better. Even though it is a bit smaller, it seems to be engineered better.

My 2 cents worth........


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## annb (Aug 20, 2009)

adkdadto4 said:
			
		

> annb said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. That helps a lot. Is the "pull-side" axial blower the system that is sold by RSF? 

Also, could I locate that blower in the crawl space directly below the room where I want to locate the fireplace? And, would it help with the sound? We have a little bit of crawl space and then basement. The furnace is in the basement.

Also, do you use a thermostat with your set-up? I've heard mixed reviews about it. What are your thoughts?

I got a quote on the Opel 3 with pipe, clean face installation, thermostat and central heating option. It came to $7200 before tax and installation. I'll need about 30' of pipe. That's $2823 for the fireplace, $2528 for the pipe and one elbow, $245 for the thermostat and $1578 to get the central heating. I'm wondering if there's an online site where I might be able to purchase this set up for a little bit less. I've looked but haven't turned up anything yet. I was expecting to come in at about $5500. 

Thanks again.


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## MountainStoveGuy (Aug 20, 2009)

online site for RSF? i dont think so. Also, if you purchase your system online expect to install it yourself. Most dealers and sweeps stay away from labor only jobs. Also, dealers are only required to service and warrant the units they sell. Not ones you buy elsewhere.


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## annb (Dec 14, 2009)

Hi there. After spending a lot of time on this forum, we finally purchased an Opel III and tied it into our existing ductwork. We did the install ourselves. We've been burning now for about a week. For the most part, we love it. 

However, I think we must be doing something wrong as we're not getting the heat output we expected. When I was growing up in the mountains of Colorado, we heated with a cheap wood stove. My husband's family, in Indiana, heated with an open fireplace and an old pot belly stove. My dad used to get the house so hot, I'd crack my bedroom window. 

So far, we've only been able to get the house up to about 61 and that's when the temperatures have been right around freezing. We started off burning hickory that had been cut and split for years. Some of it was starting to rot and some was good. Now we're burning a mixture of hardwood that seems to be fairly well seasoned. When we put a new split on the coals, it lights up pretty quickly. 

We haven't dampered down too much because when we do, we're getting black glass. They guys at RSF said we should be slower to restrict the air. Can any of you guys offer advice as to how to get the most out of our fireplace? It's not a smart purchase if we have to continue to burn lots of propane. 

Also, when I left for church this morning, I loaded it full of wood, let it get going good, lowered the damper and let it burn. When I returned, fours hours later there were some coals, but not much heat at all. I think we should be able to have a better burn for longer. 

And finally, one last question, at night, do you burn with the blower on or off?

Thanks so much. I've learned lots from this forum!

Ann


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## burnt2perfection (Dec 14, 2009)

I've been wondering about your progress...  This is my second year with my opel 3.  I am still learning.  Number 1 problem is usually the quallity of wood/fuel.  Where I live in Illinois, we had one of the coldest/wettest summers ever.  I think alot of folks are having a little trouble with their wood piles.  I keep my driest wood in a shed (with airflow), and I bring in a weeks supply at a time.  I keep that in an enclosed porch.  It's amazing how much better it burns at the end of the week.  Most pro's on this site recommend a three year supply for best results.  That is my goal now.  When I want a long and hot burn I pack as much wood in the firebox as it will hold, and let it get really hot before cutting back the air.  It's best if all of the wood surface is on fire or well charred.  Your secondary burn will look like "northern lights".  

I disconnected my central heat option from my duct system and ran one 8" duct to the far end of my home.  This seems to work better.  My house is not as large as yours.  when it gets below about 25 degrees my furnace will run.

I feel I will get better results as my fuel matures.  I cannot cut the air back more than 50%.  Softer hardwoods like maple or elm give me 4-6 hours of good heat.  Oak or hickory should give 6 - 8


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## LLigetfa (Dec 14, 2009)

annb said:
			
		

> We haven't dampered down too much because when we do, we're getting black glass.


Needing to open it up, not enough heat, and black glass sounds like your wood isn't as dry as you think it is.  I can close the Onyx down all the way and not blacken glass with good wood.  I never open mine more than half way.  My wife tends to open it too far and that just sends the heat up the chimney.  She must think it works like the burners on the cooktop.  I run it on closed or 1/4 for overnight, and 1/2 when I need lots of heat.


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## annb (Dec 15, 2009)

Thanks to both of you guys for the replies. We've done better the last day, though the temperatures haven't been very cold. Still, we managed to burn hot enough to clean most of the glass. It's still a little dark around the edges. I have noticed some emissions coming out of the chimney from time to time, but sometimes we manage to burn clean. 

Our summer was cold as well, so maybe that's an issue with the wood. I suspected that the wood might be the issue. I'm just now sure what to do about it for this year. We have access to lots of hickory that we can cut for the future. 

Has anyone used bio bricks? I'm wondering if they might help us until we can get some really well seasoned wood. Thanks again for all of the great info.


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## mtj53 (Dec 15, 2009)

Ann,
Not sure if anyone has brought this up, but you may want to consider buying a moisture meter that will give you a better idea of the woods moisture content. I'm pretty new to this, and still have alot of experimenting to do, and having a moisture meter has helped me quite a bit. It's allowed me to see just how fast wood seasons under certain conditions where I stack my wood. I have only been using my Opel 2 fireplace for a few months now but with great success. Definately sounds like you have less than perfect wood. I'm burning oak and walnut that is below 20%....could be better I realize, and it will be next year, but I am getting all kinds of heat out of mine even with that amount of moisture. I only have to leave the central blower on all night if it gets below about 10 degree's. Above 10 degree's I leave the smaller internal blower on low setting and that seems to do fine by itself.


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## annb (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks for the suggestion for a moisture meter. I think I'll buy one as it sounds like it will really help us determine the quality of the wood. We just bought a load of ash. It's been down for a year, but not split for that long. We'll give it a try. We've done better at keeping the glass clean, though sometimes it still clouds up a bit. We seem to get more glass discoloration on the left side of the glass, which is where the duct to the central heating ties in. I think I've read that other people have had a problem with this and think it might be related to the ducting. Do any of you have experience with this? The right side of the glass is nearly always clean, even over night. 

It seems like we do better when we don't damper down. Can we safely burn this less than perfect wood if we just burn it with more air to get hotter burns? I realize we'll burn through more wood until we get some seasoned. Also, somewhere else on this site, people recommended adding oak pallet pieces to loads when burning less than perfect wood. Any thoughts on this?

Is there ever a time when you guys see smoke coming out of your chimneys? I keep sending my son out to look at the emissions. When it's clean, we damper down a little. If it ceases to burn clean we open it up a bit. We have managed to maintain the temperature in the house on a single load of wood for 5 hours and no blackening of the glass by doing this. We didn't dampen down far, not quite half way at most. 

We haven't had to use the furnace, though we're still only getting up to about 63 degrees. That's what we normally set the thermostat to when using the furnace, so we're used to it. We just wear wool sweaters and do okay. I am hoping we can eventually get it a little bit warmer. The really nice thing is that the room with the fireplace is quite a bit warmer, even when the blower is on and distributing the heat. I home school our five children and we spend most of our time in that room, so we're feeling warmer than we did when using the furnace. 

Our house has two furnaces and two duct systems. One is on the main level and one on the second story. That allows us to zone heat a little. We only tied the fireplace into the main level ducting. We were hoping that the heat would naturally travel upstairs and in fact, it is doing that and doing it well. It's usually about 1 degree warmer up there. 

We're still happy with the fireplace, but I can't wait to burn some good wood  I think my husband is getting an Fiskars Super Splitter Axe and a 6# maul for Christmas.


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## LLigetfa (Dec 21, 2009)

annb said:
			
		

> We seem to get more glass discoloration on the left side of the glass...


Is there any streakiness to it indicating a possible door gasket leak?  You may have to adjust the hinges to tighten the gasket.


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## mtj53 (Dec 21, 2009)

I've only been using my RSF Opel 2 for a few months now, & still experimenting...so please take this for what it's worth, but I notice always that on an overnight burn, towards morning when the fire has burnt down and the fireplace is cooling down the glass does get a little blacker on the left side whether I have the central blower on or not. Talking with other RSF Opel owners I was prepared for this. It never gets so bad for me that I worry too much about it--I just throw on a few small splits to get it warmed back up again, and it clears most the black off the glass. If and when it doesn't get it all, I just clean it off the next time that I leave the fire go out. I'll put a photo on here of what it typically looks like in the morning for me. This was when the fire was down to coals, about 8 hours after I loaded it up, and I had just added a few splits. 
Also, being new to this, what I have done since I am burning a little bit less than perfect wood is once every week or two remove a few of the inside firebricks on the left side, then that allows me to remove the secondary gas tube, which allows me to remove the top baffle and using a flashlight can see clear to the top of my chimney. By inspecting it like this every once in awhile, you can see for yourself if there is any creosote buildup. I'd love to hear from anyone else who has gone through this. I am perhaps being a little too cautious, but better safe than sorry I figure. I'd prefer to go up, remove the cap and look down but my roof is very steep and snow covered. It only takes 10 minutes work to get it to the point of seeing up the chimney from inside the house....hope this helps.


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## annb (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks for the photo. That looks very similar to mine, especially in the morning. It helps to see how it is for someone else. 

You also answered my next question. I was going to ask how you access the chimney in order to clean it. Our roof is also very steep and very high. The chimney also extends about 7-8' above the roof line so it would be difficult to see anything from the top. I thought we'd have to remove all of the fire bricks. I'm glad to hear that we won't have to do that. It's a good idea to check frequently. We're planning to do that the day after Christmas. 

BTW, we hosted a Christmas party for our neighbors tonight. One neighbor said that another neighbor has a bunch of wood they've had cut and split for a long time. I guess they don't burn much anymore as they are in their mid-eighties. They'd like to sell it. So, we're planning to give them a call tomorrow. So, we might have some decent wood before long!

Thanks again!


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## annb (Dec 24, 2009)

I thought I'd let you guys know about the wood we got today. We hosted a neighborhood party last night and learned from one neighbor that another neighbor has lots of wood cut and split that he'd like to sell. My husband called him this morning and we went over this afternoon. He has stacks and stacks of wood, mostly walnut. I realize that walnut is not as good as ash, hickory or some others, but at least a lot of this wood is more seasoned than any we've had yet. Some of it seems a little wet, but I think those are the splits that had snow on top or were sitting on the ground. As I write, we have the damper closed almost completely and the box is filled with those coveted northern lights. The glass is clean. This is so much fun!

Our neighbor allowed us to fill up the back of our Suburban and wouldn't take any money. His wife said we can give it a try and if we need more we can discuss possibly paying for it. That was after I insisted that we don't want to take it for free. He's 87 years old and she isn't far behind. I want to do right by them. 

Anyway, it's exciting to burn with something that is at least closer to what it should be. I'm still waiting for that moisture meter. If I don't get one in my stocking I'll have to go out and buy one next week  In the meantime, we're judging by weight, sound when two splits are whacked against each other and performance. Even my kids noticed the difference in weight between this and the "seasoned" ash we bought last time. 

You guys have been so helpful. I just wanted to share a little of our success! Merry Christmas.


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## ClubbyG (Dec 25, 2009)

Hi Ann!

Glad to hear things are going well with the Opel! You and mtj53 have helped me confirm the left-door-haze symptom that has been driving me absolutely NUTS Mine also fogs up way more on the left side, which is also the side with the gravity vent option. It drove me so nuts that I called RSF and asked about removing the gravity vent and reverting back. They convinced me to go with a damper kit instead, so I went that route. The funny thing is that with the gravity vent closed, there is lightly less haze on the left door, but not by much. I have found that the heat does circulate better with the gravity vent open, so I am happy with my silly flexible option of venting a few feet to the left, if need be...

I still have yet to get my hands on some truly seasoned wood, so I can't close the air more than 50%, but it sounds like some good dry wood will truly do the trick.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Merry Christmas!


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## annb (Dec 27, 2009)

ClubbyG, 

I've read most of what you've posted about the Opel, so I wasn't too surprised about the left hand, haze issue. Your posts were really helpful when we were trying to decided whether or not to install a wood burner and what model. We're happy with the decision and I expect that we'll only get happier as we gain skill in burning. I did get a moisture meter for Christmas! It's so much fun. The walnut we got from our neighbor is measuring at 21%. Not ideal, I know, but much better than the ash that measures at 27%. 

Anyway, thanks for the dialog. Hope you had a blessed Christmas! - Ann


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## annb (Dec 28, 2009)

LLigetfa,

Hi there. I just realized that I never answered you're question about the door gasket and streaks. There really aren't streaks that would indicate a leaky gasket, as far as I can tell.  The glass does tend to darken around the edges first. Is that what you're referring to?

I'm also curious what your fire looks like when you have the damper at 25 or 50%? Are you getting flames off of the logs, or just the northern lights? So you always get the northern lights effect? How will I know if I've dampered down too far? Obviously, I can put the fire out, but short of that, are there clues to help me know when I'm hitting that sweet spot? Our drier wood is burning much better, but I'm concerned that we're sending the heat up the chimney. 

Thanks! Happy New Year.


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## LLigetfa (Dec 28, 2009)

A leaky door gasket will cause blackening along the edges and depending on how unevenly the gasket is leaking, may cause streaks.  I understand that RSF designs their stove so that as the firebox expands with heat, the door gasket seal improves.  Cooler overnight burns could result in the box contracting and the seal worstening.  Cooler stove, cooler glass.  Leaky gasket can result in even cooler glass.  I have adjusted the door hinges and latches several times to compensate for wear on the gasket and last year replaced the gasket.

When I have my air open to 50%, the flames are not quite as robust as when it is wide open but the internal temperature is much higher at 50%.  At 25% the flame gets lazy looking.  There is a notch in the control so it can never be completely closed but at the lowest setting the flame is quite lazy looking.  These observations are with the zipper air turned down.

There are always flames on the surface of the logs and the secondaries light sporadically when there is unburnt fuel from incomplete primary combustion present and there is sufficient internal temperature.  With the zipper air open there is often more fuel off-gassing than the primary air can burn so the unburnt gasses fires off the secondaries.  Fewer secondary flames does not necessarily mean inefficient or incomplete combustion.  It could simply mean that the primary air was adequate for complete combustion.  It could however also mean that the temperature inside the stove is inadequate.  The amount of secondary flames also depends on how much wood is loaded in the stove.  Flames from wood closer to the secondaries will extend up to the secondaries.

As I start to damper down to about 50%, I can see the temperature rise inside the stove.  At some point below 25%, the flames get lazy and the temperature in the stove starts to drop.  If the zipper air is uncontrolled, it produces more incomplete combustion and off-gassing than the secondaries will sustian due to reduced flow and lower inside temperature with the stove no longer in the sweet spot.  The unburnt gasses may blacken the glass and foul the flue.  By reducing the zipper air, the primary combustion and off-gassing is more controlled and secondary combustion improves.

All this is with good dry wood.  Less than ideal wood needs more air to get and keep the stove up to temperature.  Wetter wood coals more and needs more zipper air to burn down the coals.


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## annb (Dec 29, 2009)

Okay. So, how do you know where your gasket is leaking? Do you judge simply by the haze on the glass? And, is it just a matter of trial and error in making the adjustments?

You talked about the zipper air and I'm afraid I don't know what that is. I did a search on this site and found that you've mentioned zipper air in other threads as well as the dog house, but again, I'm not familiar with those terms. As far as I know, the only option I have for controlling my air is the damper. We do have an OAK that draws air from the basement, but it does not have a control on it. We do not have an ash pan, though we've been wondering if it might be a good idea to add one. 

You also mention that as you damper down to about 50% you can see the temperature rise inside the stove. I'm wondering what that looks like or if you have some type of thermometer? 

Finally, you state that wetter wood needs more zipper air to burn down the coals. If we're burning with the damper mostly open and still getting a lot of coal build up, is that another indicator of poor wood quality? 

This morning we were having a hard time getting a good hot fire to burn. When we'd shut the door, the flames would die off. We finally tossed in a piece of 2 x 4. That really helped get things going. Another indicator that we need better fuel? My husband and three oldest kids spent yesterday afternoon cutting and splitting wood for next year.


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## LLigetfa (Dec 29, 2009)

There is what we call a dollar bill test.  You close the door on a dollar bill and test for resistance as you pull it out.  The blackened pattern gives a clue where to test.

The zipper air is an unregulated air supply directed at the base of the fire.  On my Onyx, it was a 3/8" hole at the front bottom of the stove.  I drilled mine out to 3/4" and added a valve to be able regulate how much or how little air it supplies.  Some people simply plug the hole but if burning not well seasoned wood, that could produce too much coal buildup.

I guage how hot the stove is by eye.  When the interior heats up, the grey/white film of ash and the firebrick and secondary tubes have a cherry or orange glow and you can feel the heat output rise.  The colour of the flames also indicate that there is more complete combustion.

When you get some really dry wood, you will know it.  Unfortunately from what you describe, you still have less than ideal wood.


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## annb (Dec 30, 2009)

I did the dollar bill test. The door was tight on the right side, but not so much on the left. I adjusted the door in as tight as it would go. It's better, but still not as tight as the right side. 

Yesterday, we cleaned the chimney and got about 2 1/2 cups of creosote. While the firebox was cool, we looked around for the zipper air. I'm not sure where it comes into the Opel III. I couldn't find anything at the bottom of the fireplace. There was a small rectangular opening at the top, right, front of the box. The rectangle is about 1 cm x 3 cm. I'm not sure if that's it or not, but it's all I could find. 

This morning we tried to start a fire. We're burning hardwood (not sure the species) that is testing at about 18% moisture content on my cheap moisture meter. The fire burns beautifully as long as the door is open. When we close the door, the flames die off. I thought it must be the wood, so I loaded some 2 x 4 scraps thinking they are bound to burn well. The 2 x4s caught immediately, as you would expect ... until we closed the door. Then, even the 2 x 4s quit burning. I know that less than perfect wood will cause problems, but is there any reason we'd be having this problem with 2 x 4s? I might also add that we have about 3" of glowing hot coals in the bottom of the box and the splits were all charred with a white coating when we attempted to close the door. 

I'm beginning to wonder if something is wrong with our setup. Our fireplace is located on the main floor of a two story house. The chimney goes straight up, through the second floor, through the attic and out the roof. We have 26' of pipe total and 8' above the roof line. We never have any smoke in the house so it seems to draw well. Our chimney cap is the deluxe cap sold by RSF. Maybe we missed something in our install? My husband commented that it's like the damper doesn't really open up. Any ideas? RSF is closed until January 4th.


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## annb (Dec 30, 2009)

Here's another bit of info that might help. Since my husband commented about the damper, we thought we'd inspect the damper chain. When the damper is moved all the way to the right (open), the chain is still loose. There is no real tension of the chain. And, the piece that the chain connects to, behind the upper louver, remains horizontally level. When the damper is moved to the closed position, the left side of that same piece moves slightly down. If we put the damper in the open position and apply some downward tension to the chain, that piece tips down on it's right side and the logs burst into flame. 

It is possible that the chain that operates the damper needs some adjustment? It looks as if we can easily shorten the chain so that the open position actually cause the damper to open. However, I was also wondering how the bimetallic coil works? Is it possible that the damper is not opening up because the bimetallic coil has damped it down to prevent overheating? That seems unlikely to me since there is not enough heat to sustain flames with the door shut.  What do you think?


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## LLigetfa (Dec 30, 2009)

annb said:
			
		

> It is possible that the chain that operates the damper needs some adjustment? It looks as if we can easily shorten the chain so that the open position actually cause the damper to open. However, I was also wondering how the bimetallic coil works? Is it possible that the damper is not opening up because the bimetallic coil has damped it down to prevent overheating? That seems unlikely to me since there is not enough heat to sustain flames with the door shut.  What do you think?


The chain is out of adjustment.  The arm that it attaches to it at the bi-metal coil should always have the same range of motion.  The other side of the coil connects to the butterfly (damper) and overrides the actual % open setting.  Set the chain so that the upper arm can move through the entire range of motion, from stop to stop.  After that, you will have to re-learn all the settings since they will now be very different.

Good catch on that chain setting!


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## LLigetfa (Dec 30, 2009)

annb said:
			
		

> We did the install ourselves.


Don't beat yourself up too bad about the maladjusted chain.  It may have been a painful lesson but that which doesn't kill you can still hurt like the dickens.  You will be building white man fires from now on.


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## annb (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks LLigetfa. That's what I needed to know. The fireplace has been hot all day. We'll adjust the chain in the morning. If I didn't have a moisture meter and hadn't tried burning the 2 x 4's we probably would have continued to think it's simply the wood.

I went back and looked at the manual and it doesn't mention adjusting the chain anywhere. I suppose we might have just known that if we'd used one of these before. As it is, we both grew up burning with dampers located in the chimney. Ours was attached by a stiff arm and you couldn't really adjust it, or at least I never saw my dad adjust it. 

Anyway, I'm glad we've located the problem. I'll let you know how we do after we make that adjustment. Thanks for all of your help!


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## annb (Dec 31, 2009)

Yet another question! I was talking with my husband about how our dampers worked when we were kids. That got us thinking (scary, I know!)  LLigetfa talks about dampering down so the heat doesn't all go up the chimney. But, the damper is not in the chimney. As far as I can tell, when we took out the baffle and cleaned the chimney, there is nothing up there. So, what keeps the heat from just going up? The damper lever controls the air intake which controls how hot and how fast a fire burns. The firebrick would absorb and radiate heat. But how does lowering the damper keep the heat from escaping up the chimney? That might be a silly question, but I'm willing to risk looking foolish in order to really understand how this fireplace works!  Thanks!!


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## LLigetfa (Dec 31, 2009)

RSF does not endorse the use of a key damper in the flue.  Old leaky stoves had to have the damper in the flue to reduce the draft and so control to a small degree how fast the fire burned.  Your RSF controls the burn by limiting how much combustion air enters.  If you let in more air than is needed for combustion, more air goes up the flue carrying the heat with it.  If you reduce the volume of air, you slow down the flow and allow more time for the heat to be extracted through the heat chamber at the top of the stove.

It may seem counter-intuitive at first to reduce the air to increase the heat.  You'd think that more air means more fire which means more heat.  I mean that's how the gas burner on the cooktop works.  The first few years I had the RSF I was opening it up to try to get more heat out of it but all that did was burn more wood and heated the neighborhood.


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## annb (Dec 31, 2009)

That makes sense. Thanks for the education! 

We adjusted the chain today and it's made all of the difference. We'll see if we can get better heat over the next few days. It sure is fun to close the door and still have flames! Right now the damper is over half way closed and we still have flames. 

Happy New Year.


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## annb (Jan 9, 2010)

I wanted to let you guys know how we're doing with the adjusted chain. We burned through the good wood we had, and got some more from the neighbor. It wasn't nearly as good so today we bought some "seasoned" ash. It still tests at about 22 or 23%. We're not getting as much heat as I think we should. Actually, it's not even close to enough heat and I think the wood is probably the issue though it could be user error  We've been getting quite a bit of coal build up. So, after reading on this forum we're trying to use more air and see if that helps. 

But, this is the good part and the part I really wanted to share ... the chain adjustment really helped! The glass rarely turns black, even over night and things are actually burning. We did adjust the door and I think that really helped as well. We're no longer getting black glass even on the left side. 

We're buying some more ash from a guy who says it's been split for a year and covered. Maybe that will be better.


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## LLigetfa (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks for the update.  Condolences on the mediocre wood.  I know first hand how frustrating marginal wood can be.  Hope the guy with the year old covered Ash works out for you.  I'm burning two year old covered Ash and it is pure joy.  Two years from now I'll be burning three year seasoned Ash.

Separate the coals from the ashes and bring them forward.  Lay some thin splits on top with lots of air and it should help to burn them down a bit quicker and still put out some heat.  If you can get your hands on some scrap softwood like mill ends or pallet scraps to lay on the coals, that will help too.


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## ClubbyG (Jan 14, 2010)

Thought I would add to the thread for anyone researching down the road. I also had been curious about the primary air lever/chain having slack in it since I bought the unit, but figured that was as-designed. I called RSF to verify and was surprised that mine needed a chain adjustment, as well. With the lever to the right, the bi-metallic damper should be fully open and come to a stop as LLigetfa mentioned.

What a difference Like a blast furnace now and gives me better staging fires for longer burns. I feel like I am cheating since now I really can turn the air down to that elusive halfway point I was trying to achieve before.

I am glad you had posted that info on the chain, Ann--thanks to you, LLigetfa, mtj53, and all the great folks here!


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## annb (Jan 15, 2010)

ClubbyG,

I'm glad this thread has helped. It would be good if RSF mentioned that chain adjustment in their manual. But, at least it's documented here now 

BTW, the ash did NOT work out. It's very wet ... 30% on the moisture meter. Visible water comes out the ends when we try to burn it. I just still can't believe that people would flat out lie like that. I don't think there's any way ash that has been split for one year can have a 30% moisture content, is there? My husband was out of town for a few days this week, so my son and I put my husband's new Fiskars to work and split a bunch of it into smaller pieces to aid the drying process. I have to say, there is something very gratifying about splitting a piece of wood! None-the-less, I'm sore today and glad it's not my job to get the wood split   It's stacked on a pallet outside and it will get burned next year. Today, my husband and kids harvested some dead hickory from my mother-in-law's property. It's not perfect either  (about 20%) but much better and way cheaper! 

I add my thanks to that of ClubbyG. I've learned so much here! Thanks!


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## annb (Jan 15, 2010)

LLigetfa ... I did get some lumber scraps and we've been using them to help burn down the coals. It works really well. Thanks for the tip!


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## annb (Jul 11, 2010)

Someone wrote recently asking for photos of our Opel III. I thought the rest of you might like to see it since you were so helpful in both our decision to purchase it and our installation of it. I love this fireplace!


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## begreen (Jul 12, 2010)

That came out beautifully annb. I hadn't see one installed. Very nice job. 

Can you post it again in the Perfect Picture forum so that it's there for future lookers?


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## annb (Jul 12, 2010)

Thank you! I did post on the picture perfect section as well.


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## fossil (Jul 12, 2010)

Beautiful installation.  First pic looks a little like there's a person wearing shorts stuck in the firebox.   :ahhh:   Rick


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## begreen (Jul 12, 2010)

Now we know where Santa spends his summers! :lol:


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## annb (Jul 12, 2010)

I hadn't noticed that. That's really funny! That's my husband's reflection on the glass as he was taking the shots. Too funny!


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## BrotherBart (Jul 12, 2010)

Great looking fireplace. And the best pic since the legendary eBay tea kettle.


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## fossil (Jul 12, 2010)

If you care at all about him, let him out of there before you fire it up.   ;-P   Rick


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## annb (Jul 12, 2010)

I didn't know about that tea kettle so I looked it up on Google. Surely this isn't as bad as that!


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## fossil (Jul 12, 2010)

No way, he's wearing shorts.


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## Darth Marais (Dec 2, 2014)

Hello, I know I'm pretty late to the conversation being that this thread was going back in 2010 - but I thought this was an appropriate place to ask some of my own questions, as I'm experiencing some Glass Haze, as most or all of you have.  I just had the Opel 2 installed and although it's been pretty good - it has no where near the heat output that my Pacific Energy has.  The glass on the Pacific stays clean - but I'm having the hazing trouble and have been searching on the internet to see what the cause of it might be because it's only happening on the Left side.  It's as if the glass is the wrong type of something because it literally stops on each side of the door.  I've read this this thread and now that the chain problem has been mentioned, I'm wondering if that might be my problem as well, as I can never go below 50% damper - usually 100% for the first 20-30 minutes, then down to 75% - maybe 70%.  Over night burns with Maple or birch has not been good...I think it's long gone in 4-5 hours.  Don't get me wrong, we really like it, but it has some quirks that we need to sort out for it to be as impressive as the Pacific Energy.  I've attached a photo below so you can see the hazing on the glass on the left size only.


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