# 30% tax credits on new stoves



## semipro (Mar 1, 2009)

New tax credits on stoves were published on Feb 20th as part of the stimulus package.  The credit is 30% up to a maxium of $1500.  

It includes stove which burns biomass fuel to heat a home or heat water with a thermal efficiency rating of "at least 75% as measured using a lower heating value."

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits

I've been looking for a good used stove but may buy a new one now!


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## yukiginger (Mar 1, 2009)

Great, yes, now let's see what units will qualify.  I emailed Hearthstone on this two months ago with no response.  Here is their webpage addressing it:

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/customer-resources/epa-certification

Here's a link to the latest EPA certified stoves and I didn't see any wood stoves that have a "default efficiency" of 75 or more.  

http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

Now, I do not know if that is the same measure used for the qualifying tax credit, or how closely they may be correlated.  Hopefully the manufacturers will get this straightened out quickly to help dealers move product.

MarkG


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## SlyFerret (Mar 1, 2009)

Am I reading that information right:  Those of us who put a stove into service in 2008 do not qualify?

-SF


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## BrotherBart (Mar 1, 2009)

SlyFerret said:
			
		

> Am I reading that information right:  Those of us who put a stove into service in 2008 do not qualify?
> 
> -SF



Correct.


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## Later (Mar 1, 2009)

I may look into the Geitner tax credit.


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## logger (Mar 1, 2009)

Good year for me.. $8,000 credit for my new log cabin and now 30% off my new stove!  I know this stimulus doesnt hit everyone, but its doing just great for me this year.  Big help in a big way.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 1, 2009)

Retired Guy said:
			
		

> I may look into the Geitner tax credit.



I am having my tax return prepared by the firm of Geitner and Barry this year.


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## asylum575 (Mar 1, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Retired Guy said:
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I've got the firm of Daschle and Geitner handling my tax affairs.


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## Wet1 (Mar 2, 2009)

So are there any wood stoves that actually qualify for this?  Even the cat stoves are only rated at 72%...


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## Captain (Mar 2, 2009)

I emailed England Stove Works and mine does not qualify. Bummer


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## jmhpsu93 (Mar 2, 2009)

I talked to my local stove dealer about this.  He has a bit of New England based skepticism/cynicism (not that anyone from NE would have that... ;-P ), and tells me "follow the money".  He figures that the pellet stove manufacturers are behind the legislation, hence the rating @ 75% and above.  He figures it might all shake loose in the long run but will take some time.  No worries, though, 2009 taxes are due for 13 months or so.

I'm also trying to find out about the credit for replacing windows.  I've replaced about 32 of the 40 () windows in the house so far and the tax credit would really help with that last heat sponge.  Again, the dealers weren't ready for the legislation and my window guy says it will be some time before they figure it out.


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 3, 2009)

Semipro said:
			
		

> New tax credits on stoves were published on Feb 20th as part of the stimulus package.  The credit is 30% up to a maxium of $1500.
> 
> It includes stove which burns biomass fuel to heat a home or heat water with a thermal efficiency rating of "at least 75% as measured using a lower heating value."
> 
> ...



What the heck does that mean, "as measured using a lower heating value"?  Anybody know?


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 3, 2009)

Write your congresscritters.  I just got done doing my senators and my congressman, asking them to look into this and to submit legislation this year to have the limit lowered to 70.  I also pointed out very strongly that a look through the EPA list makes it unambiguously clear that the legislation was written under the influence of the pellet stove industry to set the cut-off so that pellet stoves would qualify and no woodstove would.

DON'T TAKE THIS LYING DOWN!

There also sure ought to be a lot of noise about this from the wood stove manfucaturers.  Are they trying to do anything about this or not?  I'm furious.  I need a bigger stove, and this tax credit would enable me to get one.  Without it, I'll have to wait a least a year or more to be able to afford it.


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## wellbuilt home (Mar 3, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> So are there any wood stoves that actually qualify for this?  Even the cat stoves are only rated at 72%...



 The HS equinox is rated at 78%  Is this the the rateing the G man wants to see ?  Could i be getting stimulated ?  I could use some stimulation .


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 3, 2009)

wellbuilt home said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
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Huh?  It's something way down like 63 on the EPA list.


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## North of 60 (Mar 3, 2009)

wellbuilt home said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
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Only if you install a pellet stove inside that V-8 monster of yours.


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## Wet1 (Mar 3, 2009)

wellbuilt home said:
			
		

> Wet1 said:
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I suspect that's either the manufacturers or a third party claim, not the government's.  The EPA has it classified as 63%.  Even the cat stoves are only rated to 72% according to the EPA, despite some companies such as BK having third party claims at 82.5% for the same stove.

I'm feeling pretty shafted since I bought a pellet stove during 2008 and I'm looking at a new wood stove for this year.


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## tradergordo (Mar 3, 2009)

Most woodstoves are NOT tested for efficiency.  That 63% number you often see is just the EPA default (its basically meaningless).  I don't think they wanted to encourage woodstove use with this legislation.  Hope the pellet industry can keep up with supply of fuel.


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## BandSawyer (Mar 3, 2009)

When I visited Woodstock last week they said that they were in contact with the EPA to get them to raise the effiency ratings on the stoves so they would meet the 75% rating. So the manufacterers are looking into this.


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## Wet1 (Mar 3, 2009)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> Semipro said:
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I believe the EPA does their standardized testing on both a high and a low burn.  The low burn is almost always more efficient than the high burn testing, so that works in our favor given the criteria outlined in the energy star doc.

I've talked to a couple players in the wood stove business, the general consensus is the documentation is not finalized yet.  Most believe that many wood stoves will be included in this, but that we will have to wait a little while for more details to trickle down.  I was told the info should be out and finalized in April and certainly before May.  Obviously any stove purchased before this point (after 1/1/09) will qualify for this credit if it is ultimately determined to be eligible.

The thinking is that almost all cat stoves _should _qualify as they are over 75% at low burn.  The counter concern is that the cats will degrade and fail in time, which will cause these stove to drastically lose their efficiency if the owner doesn't replace the cat.  The cat manufacturers are saying that's BS because they can prove their historic sales of replacement cats fits the estimated number of stoves in service given the standard assumed cat replacement frequency of 6 to 10 years. I understand many of the stove manufacturers are working heavily on getting their products included (and understandably so).  

I don't know what's going to happen here.  I'm likely going to go ahead and purchase a new stove, which will have a cat.  I guess the safe bet is to assume no wood stoves will qualify.  If any wood stove does qualify, it will be a cat stove, so I guess I'll go ahead and purchase knowing that I might find out later down the road that I _could_ be getting this credit... if not, oh well.


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## Wet1 (Mar 3, 2009)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> I just got done doing my senators and my congressman...


Well I guess that's one way of getting what you want.  :cheese:


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 3, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> gyrfalcon said:
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Heh.  Naughty, naughty! (Might even be worth it, except Bernie Sanders is one of them.  I love woodstoves, but there's a limit.)


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 3, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> I believe the EPA does their standardized testing on both a high and a low burn.  The low burn is almost always more efficient than the high burn testing, so that works in our favor given the criteria outlined in the energy star doc.
> 
> I've talked to a couple players in the wood stove business, the general consensus is the documentation is not finalized yet.  Most believe that many wood stoves will be included in this, but that we will have to wait a little while for more details to trickle down.  I was told the info should be out and finalized in April and certainly before May.  Obviously any stove purchased before this point (after 1/1/09) will qualify for this credit if it is ultimately determined to be eligible.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explainer and the encouraging info.  If the "documentation isn't finished yet," whose documentation, do you know?  Are we talking EPA or somebody else?  Are the current EPA efficiency ratings at high burn?  Do they have low burn data they're going to roll out that will end up showing the cat stoves, at least, above that magic 75 mark? 

Who the heck wrote this section of the egislation anyway?  Does anybody know?

I sure wish the stove manufacturers would make some public comments about all this.  They ought to be marshalling customer help in pushing for these things to be decided as soon and as inclusively as possible.

That 30 percent tax credit will definitely mean the difference between my being able to afford a new stove for next winter or continue to fight with an "understoved" situation for at least another year.


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## tradergordo (Mar 3, 2009)

Where are you guys even seeing EPA measured efficiency numbers for ANY woodstove?  I have searched the internet and can't find anything, the EPA documents I have found only list the default rates.  Manufacturer claims are worthless.  Perhaps pellet stoves can get away with their 78% untested default rates, but woodstoves certainly aren't going to be able to pull that off.   The legislation might have an interesting side effect - companies would finally have a financial incentive to have their efficiency ratings actually measured/published by the EPA for the first time ever.  This is something I always thought would be good for consumers.


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 3, 2009)

tradergordo said:
			
		

> Where are you guys even seeing EPA measured efficiency numbers for ANY woodstove?  I have searched the internet and can't find anything, the EPA documents I have found only list the default rates.  Manufacturer claims are worthless.  Perhaps pellet stoves can get away with their 78% untested default rates, but woodstoves certainly aren't going to be able to pull that off.   The legislation might have an interesting side effect - companies would finally have a financial incentive to have their efficiency ratings actually measured/published by the EPA for the first time ever.  This is something I always thought would be good for consumers.



OK, what's a "default rate"?  I have no idea what that means.  I've just been assuming the EPA numbers linked to in this thread were what was going to be used for purpose of this legislation, since they're the only ones there are.  You're saying they're totally meaningless?  If so and the legislation requires waiting for real numbers to be measured, certified and published by EPA, it ain't gonna happen any time this year or probably even the next.


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## tradergordo (Mar 4, 2009)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> OK, what's a "default rate"?  I have no idea what that means.  I've just been assuming the EPA numbers linked to in this thread were what was going to be used for purpose of this legislation, since they're the only ones there are.  You're saying they're totally meaningless?  If so and the legislation requires waiting for real numbers to be measured, certified and published by EPA, it ain't gonna happen any time this year or probably even the next.



http://www.woodheat.org/planning/buyright.htm

The EPA does not require stove efficiencies to be reported but for obscure bureaucratic reasons assigns default figures of 63 percent for non-cats and 72 percent for cats (and 78 for pellet stoves). Some manufacturers have paid for independent efficiency tests and show the resulting figures on their promotional brochures. But because efficiency test methods have not been standardized and regulated, you can’t be sure the figures are based on the same tests and calculations. On the other hand it appears that all EPA certified stoves are over 60 percent efficient and some can deliver around 80 percent of the fuel’s potential heat to the house. This is far better than the low-tech uncertified options, many of which are in the 50 percent range and lower. An overall efficiency higher than 80 percent is not desirable because the resulting low exhaust temperature means weak draft and the risk of water vapor condensation which damages the chimney.


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## wellbuilt home (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm doin my part for the economy.     I  popped a big wad of cash on   my new Equinox  .  My wife runs  thru the mall with money dripping out of her purse .  
    Whats a few %  any way.  I thought i was going to get stimulated  ?   No government cheese for me ?     I never have any luck .   John


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 4, 2009)

wellbuilt home said:
			
		

> I'm doin my part for the economy.     I  popped a big wad of cash on   my new Equinox  .  My wife runs  thru the mall with money dripping out of her purse .
> Whats a few %  any way.  I thought i was going to get stimulated  ?   No government cheese for me ?     I never have any luck .   John



Doesn't zactly sound like you need any government cheese, eh?


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## BrotherBart (Mar 4, 2009)

The government has put the onus on the manufacturer to get their stove efficiency certified and then to put a certification up on their website for customers to print out and retain as backup for the tax credit deduction.

It is an expensive certification process and I don't think many are going to do it. Oil is cheap and will be for the rest of the year so they would be putting out money for possibly no return.

We shall see.

Edit: Here is about as much as is known at the moment about the credit from the HPBA web site.

http://www.hpba.org/index.php?id=34


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## Wet1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Good info, thanks for post this BB.

Keep in mind this is for at least 2009 AND 2010, so they are looking at two years worth of sales here...


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## asylum575 (Mar 4, 2009)

I've got my eye on a Napoleon 1100C cast iron stove in brown enamel and would love to defer some of the cost with the rebate.  However, I inquired from Napoleon if they had any info on efficiency.  This is their response:

"Unfortunately we have nothing that will documents this efficiency, as
woodstove efficiencies are not fixed"

I would think the manufacturers could move some inventory if they got on board with the EPA.  Then again, do you really want Gov't to run your operatio.  I guess I see both sides of the coin.


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## begreen (Mar 4, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> The government has put the onus on the manufacturer to get their stove efficiency certified and then to put a certification up on their website for customers to print out and retain as backup for the tax credit deduction.
> 
> It is an expensive certification process and I don't think many are going to do it. Oil is cheap and will be for the rest of the year so they would be putting out money for possibly no return.
> 
> ...



This is kind of incentive makes me barf. It makes the politicos seem like they are doing a good thing, but in fact, they don't have to put a lot of money behind it because they've set an unreasonable target. Kind of like promising your kid $100 if... he sands and paints the whole house. It's similar to WA state energy credits for solar. It's a decent credit, but only applies toward WA state made products. Want to guess how long it takes to set up manufacturing in this sector?

 What we should have is a tiered credit. Greater than 70% efficient stoves - tier 1, maybe a 10% credit, greater than 75% tier 2 - 15% credit, greater than 80% - tier 3, 20% credit. That would  stimulate conversion to more efficient stove immediately, and would provide competitive incentive for the future.


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## BrotherBart (Mar 4, 2009)

I want them to do away with all tax credits and quit using the tax code for a policy tool. One page that asks what I made and multiply by .10 and send a check.


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## johnn (Mar 4, 2009)

The little wife argues strongly, that the tax credit only applies to those earning below a certain income brackett. Anyone know for certain?(She loves to argue, load me up.)


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## begreen (Mar 4, 2009)

She's probably referring to AMT. That can play havoc with credits and tax incentives. It is exactly why BB's point is well taken. Don't ask me how I know.


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 4, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> The government has put the onus on the manufacturer to get their stove efficiency certified and then to put a certification up on their website for customers to print out and retain as backup for the tax credit deduction.
> 
> It is an expensive certification process and I don't think many are going to do it. Oil is cheap and will be for the rest of the year so they would be putting out money for possibly no return.
> 
> ...



Thanks very, very much for that.

I'm wondering if this provides any hope (from the FAQ):

"Q:  How will the 75% efficiency requirement be determined?
A:  The 2009 Economic Stimulus legislation, signed into law on February 17, 2009, stated that a lower heating value will be used to measure the efficiency of a biomass-burning stove.  HPBA has provided the IRS with extensive information on product efficiency.  This method will include a broader range of efficient biomass products for the tax credit and be consistent with the original legislative intent. "

Might "Extensive information on product efficiency" include enough info to allow some range of stoves to get that certification without going through an individual testing process?  Normally, of course, they'd insist on it, but right now, the whole attitude is to push the money out into the marketplace as fast as possible, especially with stuff related to alternative energy.  OTOH, the Treasury Dept. has its hands full right now, to say the least.  I'd be a lot happier if it was on EPA to decide this.

I'd sure say the more expensive stove makers would be making a huge mistake if they pass up the opportunity to have their stoves qualify for this.  An effective 30 percent discount when you're looking at a $2,500 purchase is huge, especially in this economy.


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 4, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> The little wife argues strongly, that the tax credit only applies to those earning below a certain income brackett. Anyone know for certain?(She loves to argue, load me up.)



As far as I've heard, that's not the case, strictly speaking.  But if you're caught in the AMT thing, it might mean that effectively in your situation, I guess.  You should talk to a tax accountant.


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## Harley (Mar 4, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> I want them to do away with all tax credits and quit using the tax code for a policy tool. One page that asks what I made and multiply by .10 and send a check.



Ahmen - except the way things are heading, BB - you may have to move the decimal point over to the right by a few to get a flat tax in place.


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## Later (Mar 4, 2009)

I have paid my income tax for years and felt that was my duty to a country that stood for freedom. I don't feel that way any more.


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## billofat (Mar 11, 2009)

> Semipro - 01 March 2009 10:16 AM
> New tax credits on stoves were published on Feb 20th as part of the stimulus package. The credit is 30% up to a maxium of $1500.
> 
> It includes stove which burns biomass fuel to heat a home or heat water with a thermal efficiency rating of “at least 75% as measured using a lower heating value.”
> ...



... the caloric value of the fuel is used as the "energy input" value when calculating the efficiency of a unit ( Efficiency = Energy Out / Energy In ).

The Europeans use the Lower Heating Value (LHV) when calculating efficiencies, which assumes that any water vapor produced by combustion is not reclaimable heat and therefore is not counted as "usable energy". 

In the US, engineers tend to use the Higher Heating Value (HHV), which assumes that water vapor produced in combustion is a "real" loss and is counted as such. The difference is that some boilers now use "condensing" technologies ... condensing the water vapor in the exhaust path and reclaiming that heat (the latent heat of vaporization) -- these units would be over 100% efficient if the Lower Heating Value was used (they tend to be around 90 to 95% efficient with the Higher Heating Value). 

For example, Oak has a LHV of 7478 Btu/Lb and a HHV of 8550 Btu/Lb ... so a unit that has an efficiency of 65% using a typical test method, would "magically" become 74% efficient if the LHV were used instead of the HHV. It is a typical marketing and sales game designed to "scientifically" inflate efficiency numbers.


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## EddyKilowatt (Mar 11, 2009)

Retired Guy said:
			
		

> I have paid my income tax for years and felt that was my duty to a country that stood for freedom. I don't feel that way any more.



Well, a sizeable fraction of the country haven't felt that way any more for several years.  We've gone on paying our taxes, though.  

Remember "My Country, Right or Wrong?"  Take your turn in The Loyal Opposition and keep supporting your country and its democratically elected leaders.  

We'd have gone down the tubes back about 1798 if people got all pissy every time they lost an election.  



Eddy


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## begreen (Mar 11, 2009)

There's lots of important information in this thread. As the year unfolds many purchase may be influenced by this credit. Please leave the politics aside for another time and place.


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## karri0n (Mar 11, 2009)

Bill W said:
			
		

> > Semipro - 01 March 2009 10:16 AM
> > New tax credits on stoves were published on Feb 20th as part of the stimulus package.  The credit is 30% up to a maxium of $1500.
> >
> > It includes stove which burns biomass fuel to heat a home or heat water with a thermal efficiency rating of “at least 75% as measured using a lower heating value.”
> ...




Excellent first post Bill W. This puts a lot of these stoves into the range that they are talking about if your info is accurate.


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## johnn (Mar 11, 2009)

tradergordo:;I have visited your site by clicking on your signature, and down near the bottom clicked on "this brief comment" (which is anything but brief) and happily learned much more about EPA issues and testing procedures for effeciency. I have a small admiration for the computer skills and research abilitys of those such as yourself and many times find that I must rely on someones else to learn, for I always end up going in circles and taking all day to get somewhere. (kinda like right now) In short,,,that article was written 10 years ago,,,have all parties involved not come closer in terms of agreeing as to what would represent a "standard" for effeciency testing? Anybody have anything more current?


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## stejus (Mar 12, 2009)

I have an HI300 with a 77% optimum efficiency rating. I contacted Regency and asked if my stove qualified for the 2009 tax credit and here's what he told me.

Thank you for contacting Regency Fireplace Products. 

The Hearth Products Association is currently waiting for the Federal 
government (Internal Revenue Service and Department of Treasury) to 
provide the rules and regulations for this tax credit, including which 
stoves qualify and how to administer the credits. 

I will email you all of the details as soon as I receive them. 

Hopefully I get some good news. I purchased (cash and carry) in late 2008 but didn't start using (permit date) until Jan 2009.


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## semipro (Mar 12, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> This is kind of incentive makes me barf. It makes the politicos seem like they are doing a good thing, but in fact, they don't have to put a lot of money behind it because they've set an unreasonable target. Kind of like promising your kid $100 if... he sands and paints the whole house. It's similar to WA state energy credits for solar. It's a decent credit, but only applies toward WA state made products. Want to guess how long it takes to set up manufacturing in this sector?
> 
> What we should have is a tiered credit. Greater than 70% efficient stoves - tier 1, maybe a 10% credit, greater than 75% tier 2 - 15% credit, greater than 80% - tier 3, 20% credit. That would  stimulate conversion to more efficient stove immediately, and would provide competitive incentive for the future.



Hey, I'm just glad to see they included stoves this time.  Prior tax credits did not.  

I hope its not true that they targeted only pellet stoves with this rule as someone else mentioned.  That would be a shame.


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## tradergordo (Mar 12, 2009)

BIG NEWS FOR THE HEARTH INDUSTRY: The details of the 30% tax credit are OUT.  Woodstock is already JUMPING on it!  See:

http://www.woodstove.com/pages/sale10day/sale.html#QA

End of winter clearance prices + 30% tax credit could make for some serious bargains for those looking to buy.

In a nutshell, the stoves have to be tested by an independent lab.  Companies (like Woodstock) that are already familiar with the testing procedure, or who already have had their stoves tested so they know what to expect, will probably be following in Woodstock's footsteps...  Its great to see that at least some woodstoves are going to participate and should qualify (we'll know definitely which ones qualified in about a month or two it seems).

I said it already, but the greatest thing about all of this is that everyone is FINALLY going to be able to see ACTUAL INDEPENDENTLY MEASURED STANDARDIZED efficiency numbers from every stove manufacturer that is worth buying from (and if a manufacturer doesn't think their stove will qualify or they aren't willing to pay for testing, I don't really care about their stoves).  This is GREAT for consumers in my opinion, and I look forward to the results pouring in over the next year.


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## tradergordo (Mar 12, 2009)

Here's the Q&A;about the tax credit from the Woodstock website:

*Q: Are all wood stoves eligible for this 30% tax credit?*
A: No. The 2009 Stimulus Plan (the “American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009”) specifies that only wood stoves that are 75% efficient will qualify.

*Q: How will the 75% efficiency requirement be determined?*
A: The 2009 Economic Stimulus legislation was signed into law on February 17, 2009, and the government (specifically the IRS and the EPA) has just decided on the method that they will use to determine woodstove efficiency.

A Certified Independent Testing Laboratory will test our stoves during the first two weeks in April to verify that the stoves meet or exceed the 75% efficiency requirement.

*Q: How do you know that your wood stoves will qualify?*
A: There are really two reasons: (1) Our stoves have been efficiency tested before, during the EPA certification process, and (2) we have our own laboratory in New Hampshire and we know how our stoves will perform under the methods proposed by the federal government.

*Q: When does this tax credit go into effect and how long will it last?* 
A: The tax credit is good for two years. It goes into effect January 1, 2009 and is valid only for the purchase of a qualifying stove in 2009 and 2010. The sales receipt must indicate that the purchase was made between January 1, 2009 and December 31, 2010.

*Q: How will I use this tax credit?*
A: You can claim this credit on your federal income tax form at the end of the year. The credit decreases your tax liability. (It does this by increasing your tax refund or, if you owe taxes, it decreases the amount you have to pay.

Note: This is a tax credit, not a tax deduction. A tax credit is more valuable than a similar tax deduction. A tax credit reduces the tax you pay, dollar-for-dollar. Tax deductions - such as those for home mortgages and charitable giving - lower your taxable income.

*Q: What documentation will I need?*
A: We will provide you with a signed certification that the wood stove that you purchase from us qualifies for the tax credit. We will post copies of these certifications on our website to make it easier for you. You must keep a copy of the certification statement and the sales receipt for your records, but do not have to submit them with your tax return.

*Q: Is the tax credit good just for wood stoves?*
A: No, the 30% also applies to qualifying windows, storm windows, exterior doors, insulation, and certain types of furnaces and water heaters.

Note: The 30% amount is subject to a maximum of $1,500 per homeowner for all improvements combined.

*Q: Is it a max of $1500 per household per year?* Or is $1500 the max over the 2 years?[/b]
A: $1,500.00 is the maximum over two years, per household.

*Q: I am building my own home. Can I get the $1500 tax credit as part of my new home construction?*
A: No, the $1,500 tax credit is designed only for existing homes, and includes energy saving windows and doors, insulation, high efficiency water heaters and furnaces, and biomass stoves. However, if you are building a new home, there are other tax credits available for building energy efficient homes. Plus, there are new home tax credits available for photovoltaics, solar water heaters, small wind systems and fuel cells.


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## tradergordo (Mar 12, 2009)

*Q: Where can I find information on receiving the tax credit for other energy efficiency purchases (insulation, windows, etc.)?*
A: To determine whether other products qualify, check with either the manufacturer or the distributor/store. This piece of legislation was large, complex, and passed in a hurry, so it may take until late spring until everything gets settled. Even in our case, the method for testing wood stove efficiencies was not determined until after the bill was passed!!

*Q: Can I buy more than one woodstove and still get the credit?*
A: Yes, you could buy two qualifying wood stoves and get a 30% tax credit on each stove (up to a maximum credit of $1,500.00)

*Q: I'd like to see your certifications before I purchase. Can I take advantage of your current sale but delay shipment until after your certification testing in early April, 2009?*
A: Absolutely. Normally, we require that stoves sold during the year-end clearance be shipped within a month (by the end of April). If you wish to wait until after the certification testing is done, that would be fine, and your shipment would be delayed until May, or early June.

*Q: Your literature lists all of your woodstoves at 72% EPA Efficiency. What makes you so sure that your stoves will qualify for the 75% minimum?*
A: The EPA Efficiency is a “default” efficiency... in other words, every EPA Approved Catalytic Woodstove is presumed to be at least 72% efficient. Under the actual efficiency testing standards proposed by the federal government our catalytic woodstoves will be in the 78-80% range. 

*Q: Can I take the credit if I buy one of your stoves second hand?*
A: No, the legislation specifically states that qualified equipment must be new. 

*Q: I bought one of your stoves on December 31st, 2008. Can I qualify for the tax credit?*
A: Unfortunately, no. The credit only extends to qualifying stoves purchased after January 1, 2009.

*Q: Can I get the tax credit if I buy one of your gas stoves?*
A: No, the credit only applies to “biomass” stoves and, unfortunately, not to our gas stoves.

*Q: Why was 75% efficiency selected?*
A: The 75% efficiency number was approved by the U.S. Congress in 2005 as part of the Energy Policy Act and was used again for this tax credit.

*Q: This deal sounds too good to be true. What am I missing?*
A: We were surprised too. The original tax credit was scheduled to be $300 for residential energy conservation improvements, but when the 2009 Stimulus Bill (“American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009”) was signed in February of 2009, the total amount went from $300.00 to 30% (with a maximum of $1,500). This means that you get a 30% discount, from the federal government, on the first $5,000.00 of qualified residential energy improvements you make to your primary residence in 2009-2010.

*Q: Can I get a tax credit for related items (i.e. chimney parts, installation materials and labor, hearth pads, and so on) to get the maximum credit?*
A: No, the tax credit only applies to the purchase price of the stove itself, and not related expenses.


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## karri0n (Mar 12, 2009)

Hey mods, any chance for a sticky on this? I would hate for this one to go by the wayside...


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## Highbeam (Mar 12, 2009)

I got the email from corporate woodstock to come buy a stove. They seem to be very excited about selling their stoves and also being first to the party. Good for them.


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## MishMouse (Mar 12, 2009)

Info from the Harmanstoves website

http://www.harmanstoves.com/tax-credit.asp

Apparently the Oakwood and the TL-300 will qualify for the credit.

To bad I bought mine in 2008 instead of 2009, but I feel the savings made up for it.


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## Wet1 (Mar 12, 2009)

MishMouse said:
			
		

> Info from the Harmanstoves website
> 
> http://www.harmanstoves.com/tax-credit.asp
> 
> ...


Better read a little closer  -   "*If* the IRS accepts the *recommendations* of the Hearth, Patio & Barbeque Association and the Environmental Protection Agency..."


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## CrappieKeith (Mar 12, 2009)

I think there's a lot of putting the cart in front of the horse going on with these manufactures saying they they are going to be ok for the credit when the rules have not been set forth yet. Anything to make a buck!
Anyone can say anything....still does'nt make it true.

NOTE>”If the IRS accepts the recommendations of the Hearth, Patio & Barbeque Association and the Environmental Protection Agency...”

If is a might important word here.


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## tradergordo (Mar 12, 2009)

To the previous two posters - I'm not sure you got the message I just posted - but the rules have been finalized as described.  That said, I do think there is some "cart before the horse" going on when manufacturers are making assumptions that their stoves will qualify before they have actually gone though the formal testing/certification process.  But apparently some manufacturers have already had their stoves tested using the exact criteria the EPA is requiring now for this tax credit, so they can reasonably say that their stoves will pass.


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## Wet1 (Mar 12, 2009)

http://www.hpba.org/index.php?id=34

2009 Tax Credit Information – Important New Details 

Included in the 2009 Economic Stimulus legislation signed into law by President Obama on February 17, 2009, is a 30% (up to $1,500) consumer tax credit in 2009 and 2010 for the purchase of a 75% efficient biomass-burning stove as measured using a lower heating value. The Hearth, Patio & Barbecue Association (HPBA) and the Pellet Fuels Institute (PFI), succeeded in improving the tax credit to promote renewable energy and help consumers fight rising home heating costs.   

The tax credit provisions in this new legislation contain improvement amendments to the legislation passed in October 2008. The major changes made were an extension of the credit to 2010 and an increase of the credit from $300 to 30% of the total cost. 

Guidelines for determining what stoves meet the efficiency requirements to qualify for the credit or how a manufacturer will qualify their products are determined by the U.S. Department of the Treasury and the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).  The tax credit took effect January 1, 2009, though the IRS has not issued the guidelines. *These guidelines are expected by March 31, 2009*, however the credit applies to all qualifying stoves sold in 2009 and 2010. HPBA will keep the industry informed on the status of the guidelines for qualifying stoves.  For the latest information, check the HPBA website, www.hpba.org, for critical developments. 

Tax Credit FAQs 

Q:  What is a federal consumer tax credit?
A:  Consumers claim the credit on their federal income tax form at the end of the year. The credit then increases the tax refund or decreases the amount the taxpayer has to pay. 

Note: With regard to tax credits vs. tax deductions, in general, a tax credit is more valuable than a similar tax deduction. A tax credit reduces the tax you pay, dollar-for-dollar. Tax deductions - such as those for home mortgages and charitable giving - lower your taxable income. 

Q:  When does this tax credit go into effect and how long will it last?  
A:  The tax credit goes into effect January 1, 2009 and is valid only for the purchase of a qualifying biomass-burning stove in 2009 and 2010.  The sales receipt must indicate that the purchase was made between January 1, 2009 and December 31, 2010.  If a retailer sells a stove before the list of qualifying stoves is made public, the retailer must keep a complete record of the sale (name and full contact information) so the purchaser can be notified.  

Q: Who is determining the tax credit guidelines for the qualifying units?
A:  The Department of the Treasury, and specifically, the IRS. 

Q:  Will other wood and solid-fuel appliances (like inserts, EPA-certified wood-burning fireplaces and outdoor wood heaters) qualify for the tax credit?
A:  This legislation includes only 75% efficient biomass-burning stoves.  In communication with the IRS, HPBA requested that inserts be included, but no confirmation has been received. 

Q:  Do all pellet stoves qualify for the tax credit?
A:  We do not know at this time.  In a letter to the IRS, we recommended that all pellet stoves be included because EPA has previously assigned a default efficiency rating sufficient to qualify pellet appliances. However, we do not have a confirmation from the U.S. Department of the Treasury or the IRS about whether they will accept or reject this recommendation. 

Q:  Why was 75% efficiency selected?
A:  The 75% efficiency number was approved by the U.S. Congress in 2005 as part of the Energy Policy Act and was used again for this tax credit.  Unfortunately, with a truncated timeline of the legislation that included this tax credit, we were not able to change the number to reflect a more realistic efficiency rating.  

Q:  How will the 75% efficiency requirement be determined?
A:  The 2009 Economic Stimulus legislation, signed into law on February 17, 2009, stated that a lower heating value will be used to measure the efficiency of a biomass-burning stove.  HPBA has provided the IRS with extensive information on product efficiency.  This method will include a broader range of efficient biomass products for the tax credit and be consistent with the original legislative intent.    

Q:  How will a consumer know that a product is certified?
A:  The manufacturer will have to certify that its product meets or exceeds the IRS efficiency requirements.  A manufacturer’s certification is a signed statement from the manufacturer certifying that the product qualifies for the tax credit.  The IRS encourages manufacturers to provide these certifications on their websites to facilitate identification of qualified products.  Tax payers must keep a copy of a certification statement for their records, but do not have to submit a copy with their tax return.  

Q:  What should a retailer and consumer do while waiting for qualifying information?
A:  Keep exact records of any sale or purchase.  It is imperative that retailers keep records of sales and buyers should save all receipts for payment along with stove manufacturer and model information.  

Q:  How does the language in this legislation differ from what was passed in October 2008?
A:  The new legislation 1) increases the tax credit from $300 to 30% of the total cost of a biomass-burning stove, 2) extends the credit to purchases in 2010, and 3) measures the stove’s efficiency based on the lower heating value.


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## CrappieKeith (Mar 12, 2009)

"But apparently some manufacturers have already had their stoves tested using the exact criteria the EPA is requiring now for this tax credit, so they can reasonably say that their stoves will pass. "

The EPA is not setting this requirement.The IRS is I believe...could be wrong but when I called the EPA they said to contact the IRS as they will beissuing the criteria.

reasonably say that their stoves will pass....we are UL listed.UL does not list a furnace under 75% ,but we will not go out on that ledge until the criteria has been set forth.
Saying that they think, maybe and or if is being a bit presumptious.


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## tradergordo (Mar 12, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> *These guidelines are expected by March 31, 2009*,



They are out, and it was by March 31, 2009.  It was also by March 12.


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## kork (Mar 12, 2009)

Anything heard from Jotul?


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## Harley (Mar 12, 2009)

Certainly this isn't meant to be knocking Woodstock, or any other manufacturer that references the potential for the credit..... However to me, to aggressively advertise and hold out a "carrot" (that they don't even have yet) is irresponsible.

If any of the Companies are certain that their stoves will pass the EPA (and more importantly, IRS) tests, then they should put in writing that in the event the stove you purchased doesn't qualify, and we told you it would, then we'll cut you a check for 30% (up to $1,500).  Other than that - pure speculation and advertising B-S.

So, buy the stove you want, get the best deal you can, and if it eventually qualifies - then that's an additional bonus.

I won't insert my whole opinion of the stimulus package, but my guess is that getting the Cert. for a wood stove might be a little tough.  I hope manufacturers aren't looking to see how the sales go with the "bait", and then abandon the commitment to certify if sales aren't as good as they had hoped.


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 12, 2009)

Harley said:
			
		

> Certainly this isn't meant to be knocking Woodstock, or any other manufacturer that references the potential for the credit..... However to me, to aggressively advertise and hold out a "carrot" (that they don't even have yet) is irresponsible.
> 
> If any of the Companies are certain that their stoves will pass the EPA (and more importantly, IRS) tests, then they should put in writing that in the event the stove you purchased doesn't qualify, and we told you it would, then we'll cut you a check for 30% (up to $1,500).  Other than that - pure speculation and advertising B-S.
> 
> ...



Just to be clear, in no known alternate universe is the IRS going to be carrying out fuel-efficiency testing on woodstoves.  EPA is arranging for that, as it should, and IRS will rely on their data.  If EPA is pushing callers off to IRS, it's because they're not set up to deal with the public on this kind of thing.

I also think you're being a litlte harsh on the stove manufacturers we've seen dealing with this so far.  They've laid out detailed FAQs and have been pretty clear that  it's not a done deal until their testing is done and they have certification in hand to give to customers.  Woodstock, of course, has no dealers, and therefore can control the message given to customers, and I don't see them as being likely to try to bamboozle anybody.

Obviously, the whole situation bears careful watching, but this early into it, I'm not seeing any big red flags yet.


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## jmhpsu93 (Mar 12, 2009)

Here's what I got from Hearthstone...not sure this would stand up in court.    

Yes I does

-----Original Message-----
From: e-mail@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:03 PM
To: Inquiry
Subject: Contact Form Submission




Comments:
I recently purchased/installed a Phoenix wood stove.  Is it going to
qualify for the 2009 tax credit?u


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 12, 2009)

Ugh.  Now that is a bad sign.


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## Harley (Mar 13, 2009)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, in no known alternate universe is the IRS going to be carrying out fuel-efficiency testing on woodstoves.  EPA is arranging for that, as it should, and IRS will rely on their data.  If EPA is pushing callers off to IRS, it's because they're not set up to deal with the public on this kind of thing.
> 
> I also think you're being a litlte harsh on the stove manufacturers we've seen dealing with this so far.  They've laid out detailed FAQs and have been pretty clear that  it's not a done deal until their testing is done and they have certification in hand to give to customers.  Woodstock, of course, has no dealers, and therefore can control the message given to customers, and I don't see them as being likely to try to bamboozle anybody.
> 
> Obviously, the whole situation bears careful watching, but this early into it, I'm not seeing any big red flags yet.



I agree it bears careful watching, but again, I think some of the advertising is putting the cart before the horse at this point in time, and yes, I realize the IRS isn't going to be doing any testing (God help us if they got into that).  Obviously people should read the details in the FAQ's and make a well informed buying decision as with anything else.  What I do believe is misleading and irresponsible are the "headlines" in the addvertisements which would indicate the certification is already there (you have to read further to find that it isn't quite there yet).

These would be the some of the statements I'm referring to:

"At long last, here’s some truly good economic news!

Double Savings during our Best-Ever off-Season Discount "

"Our best prices for the year, plus the 30% Tax Credit 
can help you save on high efficiency soapstone stove
and save money on your heating bills!"

"With all the unfortunate economic news these days, it’s a pleasure to give you this great news: in February, 2009 President Obama signed into law a 30% Tax Credit for high efficiency wood stoves. The combination of Clearance Sale prices, the 30% Tax Credit, and low freight rates makes this a “once-in-a-lifetime” deal, compliments ..."

None of those statements indicate a the possibility that their stoves wouldn't qualify, or "subject to" any sort of final certification.  I do hope they and the others are able to get the cert.


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## CrappieKeith (Mar 13, 2009)

Harley said:
			
		

> gyrfalcon said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly....well said men!


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## jdinspector (Mar 13, 2009)

You bring up a valid point. However, one thing that hasn't been said about Woodstock, in particular, is that they have a 6 month return policy. I'm sure this in effect if the stove doesn't pass the testing. How do I know? I ordered my stove earlier this week and they're even taking it a step further than 6 months. I was told that they'll extend the return policy until December 31,2009. Don't forget, that includes THEM paying for return shipping. So, with this sale they're having, my worst case scenario would be the $100 I'm paying to have the stove shipped to me. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I can't speak about other manufacturers, but I'd say this puts a little pressure on them to step up. Mind you, I have no allegiance to Woodstock, I just think they they have "it" figured out in this particular case. I had considered Hearthstone stoves, but was never convinced that their stove was better than Woodstock. I'm a bit concerned about the size of the Fireview (may be too small for me), but that's a chance I'm willing to take. I think the $100 gamble (and some time for me to install the stove) is a pretty cheap gamble.


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## DAKSY (Mar 13, 2009)

Here's the official list of qualifying units from Hearthstone...

Equinox #8000 
Bennington #8350 
Phoenix #8612 
Heritage #8021 
Homestead #8570-H 
Homestead #8570-F 
Tribute #8040 
Shelburne #8370 
Craftsbury #8390 
Clydesdale #8490B 
Clydesdale #8491 
Morgan #8470B 
Bari #8170 
Heritage Pellet #8090 

This info was contained in correspondence to Hearthstone Authorized dealers...


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## johnn (Mar 13, 2009)

Not a data base on information here, but I`ve been trying to educate myself on what so many allready know, and I find that its slow but rewarding!!I dont think the manufacturers are trying to "hoodwink" the consumers, however yes , they should be offering to cover the total package if in fact , all things don`t work out as inticipated, since their sale was based on there initiative. 
 Emission particle testing started on 05 for heavily poluted areas,and the reviewable outcomes vs solutions aren`t scheduled until 2013. Ten years ago they tested wood burners and all the parties couldn`t agree on using Europien, Canadian, Phase 1 or Phase 2 testing procedures. primarily because there is no controll over real world burns. The type of wood, its moisture, the altitude of burn, exhaust set up, wood storage for curing duration, suppliers of "SEASONED" wood, upgraded stoves in homes, the cold fire, duration of burns, Maintenance of stoves to keep optimul performance, inexperienced burners ect.ect.
 These are not appliances the have fixed regulators with matched orifices to a determined purity of fuel you just hook up and any Joe Blow gets a standard result! They have their hands full and I for one ,,hope its not another rating company, stamping its AAA approval on a COD package because Wall Street demands more and more investment packages
 I for one am just one person trying to use alternate fuel to heat my wife, and see my grandbabys feet more often. I dont want a 30% refund if it means any future wood burners are going to have to pay $600 more after 2010. Perhaps we should monitor retail prices and see what the future holds for them?


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## CrappieKeith (Mar 13, 2009)

Just curious....did you get that in writting?


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## gyrfalcon (Mar 13, 2009)

ml said:
			
		

> I for one am just one person trying to use alternate fuel to heat my wife, and see my grandbabys feet more often. I dont want a 30% refund if it means any future wood burners are going to have to pay $600 more after 2010. Perhaps we should monitor retail prices and see what the future holds for them?



Boy, I'm not following your reasoning here.  I follow for sure about the wife and the grandbaby feet, but I don't get why a price increase would somehow the fault of the current tax credit program.

The manufacturers will charge for their stoves as much as they can get people to pay for them.  That's called capitalism!


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## CrappieKeith (Mar 13, 2009)

gyrfalcon said:
			
		

> ml said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not rue for all manufacturers.
We make multi fuel furnaces that could and should be way more then they are ,but because there are others that charge less we charge less to stay competitive in our pricing.
Some folks could care what's in a furnace.
The bottom line is what does it cost.

I would only think that pricing should stand pat .We have a glut of steel with the lack of cars being built & appliances for new homes not being made because of the saging economy.
Sure there's the ole supply vs demand ,but you also have to look at other factors.


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## Highbeam (Mar 13, 2009)

"Heritage Pellet #8090"

There's a pellet stove?


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## johnn (Mar 13, 2009)

Not sure , I understand myself at times! :-/ I have no clue what the average increase per manufacturer price goes up each year, just curious if they will increase more than the standard average, because the consuer is getting a stimulus which gives a new sells angle. I wouldnt be in the market for a number of stoves without this credit, and would hate to see down the road them being even further out of reach.


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## CrappieKeith (Mar 13, 2009)

1 point being over looked is this.
What does liquid fuel cost vs solid fuel?
I also know different solid fuels run at different rates. Coal vs wood logs vs pellets vs corn all vary, but there is a pay back as solid fuel typically is cheaper then liquid fuel.
I burn wood logs at $110 per full cord of oak. That cord makes close to 250 gallons worth of propane.My propane this year floated around 2-2.50 a gallon.
So at the end of the year I'll see about $3000 in a check I'll write myself instead of giving it away to the gas guy.
If those numbers stayed constant over 10 year ...that's 30,000.
So buying a well built effient furnace that pays for itself in the 1st year is a great investment.In my mind if it cost an extra 600 to 1000 more ...mute point because I'll recoup that in no time.
There is of coarse coming up with the original investment. Spent properly it will be a great investment.


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## Todd (Mar 13, 2009)

DAKSY said:
			
		

> Here's the official list of qualifying units from Hearthstone...
> 
> Equinox #8000
> Bennington #8350
> ...



They must of retested their stoves because their current literature states most of those stoves don't meet the 75% efficiency rating. I think this whole 30% credit thingy is a great thing, it's going to push manufactures to standardize an efficiency test and make better stoves.


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## relax (Mar 16, 2009)

holly crap i just last week updatet to the mansfield...seems i have missed the free hand back...


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## johnn (Mar 16, 2009)

Never drank Crown in Dakota. Think I`d use a lot less ice up there! Might even taste better up there?


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## clearblue16 (Mar 16, 2009)

so does all this apply to wood inserts as well?


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## BrotherBart (Mar 16, 2009)

clearblue16 said:
			
		

> so does all this apply to wood inserts as well?



The Clydesdale and the Morgan in the above list are inserts.


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## Wet1 (Mar 16, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> DAKSY said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So HS has already submitted their stoves for testing and passed with 75%+???  Wow, that was lightning fast!  I'd like to see the certification because this "official list" sounds premature based on what I'm hearing from everyone else in the industry.  My guess is this is another case of putting the cart in front of the horse...

EDIT: I just checked their website and see nothing regarding them achieving their certification.  I would think they would have this plastered all over their home page if they passed this testing since nobody else has yet.


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## rustynut (Mar 17, 2009)

brotherbart,
  how about this one
got my final inspection in feb09
checked - quad 5700 steptop @ 76%
stove was actually purchased a couple years back
would have to look to be sure 
what do ya think ?
rustynut


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## rustynut (Mar 17, 2009)

i guess that HPBA site says it pretty plain
for stoves purchased after 01jan09.............
rn


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## relax (Mar 18, 2009)

ok can someone  tell me why the hearthstone mansfield at 76%is not listed for the credit,its rating is higher than some of the other hearthstones...


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## Highbeam (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't know why on the mansfield. The Hearthstone company is hiring for a tech position to support their line of PELLET stoves. Sheesh.


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## Wet1 (Mar 18, 2009)

zim said:
			
		

> ok can someone  tell me why the hearthstone mansfield at 76%is not listed for the credit,its rating is higher than some of the other hearthstones...


I still can't understand why ANY of the Hearthstone wood stoves are stated as qualifying for this credit.  To the best of my knowledge, not a single one has passed (or has even gone through) the certified testing process.   I'd be pretty pissed if I bought one of these stoves because my dealer told me they qualified and later found out it didn't!


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## CrappieKeith (Mar 18, 2009)

Wet1 said:
			
		

> zim said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Buyer beware....


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## BrotherBart (Mar 18, 2009)

rustynut said:
			
		

> brotherbart,
> how about this one
> got my final inspection in feb09
> checked - quad 5700 steptop @ 76%
> ...



The tax code says "placed in service in 2009". Personally I would do it. The tax courts have defined "placed in service" as "available for use" and I don't know how a stove is available for use if it isn't signed off on the final inspection.

It could go either way in an audit and those are the ones I always take.

As always, consult your tax advisor. Internet tax advise is worth every penny you paid for it.


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## Faithd (Mar 25, 2009)

One thing that may be appropriate to point out, is that the 75% efficiency value was revised to
be referenced to the "lower heating value."  Formerly it hadn't been specified and may have been
in reference to the 'higher heating value.'   

The higher heating value (HHV) includes the heat of vaporization of the water produced by the wood 
combustion, and I would expect that the stove efficiencies normally cited are based on the proportion of heat 
collected of the total (higher) heating value.  The lower heating value (LHV) is the amount of heat generated
by wood combustion excluding the heat of vaporization of the water produced during combustion.

Woodstoves can't safely operate at exhaust temperatures low enough to be able collect a portion of the heat 
from the water vapor, as say a modern natural gas furnace which is of a 'condensing' design.  They (high
efficiency natural gas furnaces) are able to cool the exhaust down to the point where much of the water 
vapor is condensed and thus collect a large portion of this total heat from the gas combustion.

The fact that they added the term 'lower heating value' in describing the 75% efficiency, may have opened
it up to quite a few more wood stoves (as opposed to mainly pellet stoves or perhaps a few of the
catalytic designs with the original language from the earlier legislation).

That said, until or unless the vendor of your particular stove provides a certification that it is eligible 
in accordance with the IRS standards, you're on your own if the stove you purchase in this or next year
and turns out to not be considered eligible.  I've not heard that the IRS guidance has formally come out yet.

I've been planning to replace an older (80's) VC Resolute with a newer stove (perhaps VC), but will be making a 
decision based on which designs (e.g. cat or non-cat) are eligible for the credit.  With the efficiency language
being based on LHV, the non-cat designs may well be eligible, but I'm going to be waiting for formal certification
by VC (or other mfr.'s).  

I'm personally comfortable with the catalytic designs (I've owned two of them), and may still be inclined to stay 
with this style, due to the lower emissions and higher efficiencies (though they have higher operating costs due 
to the catalyst).


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## BrotherBart (Mar 26, 2009)

zim said:
			
		

> ok can someone  tell me why the hearthstone mansfield at 76%is not listed for the credit,its rating is higher than some of the other hearthstones...



From a recent article in Market Watch:

"Manufacturers are hurrying to figure out which products will earn credits under the government's rules, which means testing them for various standards of energy efficiency. The shakeout could have significant impact on future product lineups. "We have one wood stove that apparently doesn't qualify, and it's our third best-selling stove," says Dave Kuhfahl, president of HearthStone Quality Home Heating Products Inc. "We're wondering if it will ever sell again."


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## BrotherBart (Mar 26, 2009)

And from Leslie Wheeler, director of communications for the HPBA in Bio Mass magazine:

“(However), some manufacturers and some retailers out there are jumping the gun,” he continued, “and that is the real danger, because we don't know what that testing is going to be."


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## Todd (Mar 26, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> zim said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which stove do you think this is?


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## BrotherBart (Mar 26, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> Which stove do you think this is?



Well lets see here. The Mansfield wasn't on the list at the top of this thread soooo....

I kinda hope it is the Mansfield. I would love to pick one of those big rocks up cheap because everybody quit buying them.  :coolgrin: A gorgeous one has been sitting on the local stove shop floor for two years now.


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## tradergordo (Mar 26, 2009)

I still don't understand why Woodstock is out there essentially saying they know what the exact government requirements are and their official tests are already scheduled for next month - while it seems like everyone else in the industry is more like "we still don't have any clue what the requirements will be"?  Does woodstock have some "inside" info that no one else has, or are they completely full of it?


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## jdinspector (Mar 26, 2009)

Tradergordo, 

Methinks that it falls into the old saying, "It ain't bragging if you can back it up." I know nothing about the EPA testing or Woodstock's inside info (or lack of), but suspect their expected passing of the tests falls into the substance of the quote. They just seem very confident with their product. Heck, are there any other stove companies who would allow you to use a product for 6 months and return it if you aren't satisfied? For that matter, are there any companies, period, who have that kind of confidence in their product?


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## John_M (Mar 26, 2009)

This link should help some: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c5

From the standards for Biomass stoves, I do not know what ".... lower heating value." means. 

Also, I read somewhere on this same site, I think, that labor to install the stove is creditable. There is no mention of the cost of hearth, stovepipe or chimney figuring into the tax credit program. Because these things are necessary for the stove to meet code requirements it seems to me that they should also be eligible for the tax credit. 

It seems the IRS and the manufacturers are still trying to get all this sorted out. I can't understand why the IRS cannot use "...any biomass stove meeting EPA Phase II requirements..." as the standard. 

I just spent a month and a lot of money building an elevated hearth. It has an "R" value of about .95. I will not now tear it apart so I can purchase a qualifying stove requiring an "R" value of 1 or better. I just might be stuck with a great stove and no tax credit. We'll see what happens! 

John_M


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## Dakotas Dad (Mar 26, 2009)

I picked up a new Homestead just yesterday. My local dealer said she had just recieved an email or fax from Hearthstone saying they were sure that stove would pass certification.. To me, it's nice but I needed a stove, she wanted that one, it seems like a nice, solid stove, so I am all good.. 

if come tax season next spring I can take some percentage of the cost of stove and such from my taxes, bonus.


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## gawebster (Mar 30, 2009)

You better read the fine print that manufacturers are using in promoting  their products will qualify for the Biomass credt.

To date there are NO wood or pellet appliances approved to recieve the BioMass Tax Credit.  

The IRS has a recommended efficiency testing standard proposed to them from the Hearth Products Association - of which all hearth manufacturer's belong.  This standard has not yet been accepted.  What happens to all those manufacturer's who claim their products meet the standard, and then the IRS changes the standard in its final requirement.  You are just out of luck based on these manufacturer's small print.  Ask your hearth store for a signed letter that they will personally guarantee the stove meets this requirement and will personally pay you the tax credit if said manufacturer's products suddenly do not meet this standard.  See how far you get then.


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## begreen (Mar 30, 2009)

gawebster said:
			
		

> What happens to all those manufacturer’s who claim their products meet the standard, and then the IRS changes the standard in its final requirement. ...  See how far you get then.



Methinks the natives will be bringing their firewood to the IRS's door.


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## Highbeam (Mar 30, 2009)

One thing is for sure, the woodstock company is letting it all hang out and doing everything they can to win those customers that can be won by the tax credit carrot. I have not seen any other manufacturer advertizing as aggressively. In the abscence of other folks claiming to have earned the tax credit they seem to be the only one that does.

Looks like the mansfield will need a redesign to meet the spec. Maybe they can pull it off within the next couple years of the credit. Maybe stuff a cat in it.


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## blacktop37 (Mar 31, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> One thing is for sure, the woodstock company is letting it all hang out and doing everything they can to win those customers that can be won by the tax credit carrot. I have not seen any other manufacturer advertizing as aggressively. In the abscence of other folks claiming to have earned the tax credit they seem to be the only one that does.
> 
> Looks like the mansfield will need a redesign to meet the spec. Maybe they can pull it off within the next couple years of the credit. Maybe stuff a cat in it.



I looked at the Mansfield and the Equinox(not at the same time) the 2 stoves looked the same except the size. If the Eq was on the list, What test determined
that the mansfield is a nogo, Theirs or some outside test?


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## Wet1 (Mar 31, 2009)

Highbeam said:
			
		

> One thing is for sure, the woodstock company is letting it all hang out and doing everything they can to win those customers that can be won by the tax credit carrot. I have not seen any other manufacturer advertizing as aggressively. In the abscence of other folks claiming to have earned the tax credit they seem to be the only one that does.



Agreed.  The details for this entire thing has been fuzzy at best all along and I find I strange that WS seems to be the only one "in the know".  I would think a company such as BK would have just as good of a chance for meeting these yet to be fully defined requirements, but even BK still appears to be waiting for more info... yet the folks at WS make this sound like it's basically a done deal and their just waiting for the testing to make it official.


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## asylum575 (Apr 7, 2009)

Anything new on this? 

I'm planning on getting a Napoleon 1100C, but may switch if they don't qualify


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## Greg123 (Apr 7, 2009)

I have been reading that The IRS is expected to issue the completed list of requirements by mid-to-late April 2009. I'm also looking at a new wood stove, but I'm holding off until further details are available.


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## stoveguy13 (Apr 7, 2009)

the date from the irs is they should have a ruling by april 30th but i would not hold your breath it was due on march 31st


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## naturesheat (Jun 3, 2009)

Woops....please read next post...lol.


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## naturesheat (Jun 3, 2009)

The IRS has finally anounced the details of the 30% tax credit. Looks like it will be pretty much up to the Manufacturers to certify their own units.   http://hpba.org/index.php?id=294


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## asylum575 (Jun 3, 2009)

I was just looking at the EPA listing that was updated 5/22/09.

http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf

 Very few stoves qualify.  I wonder if all the manufacturers will retest and try to get their stoves on the list.  I would think that if you apply for the tax credit and the stove you bought is not on the EPA list as 75% or better, the IRS would have a problem with it.  I was planning on a Napoleon 1100C, which is not on the EPA list at all.  Napoleon has it rated as 69.8% on their website.

According to the list, not one Vermont Castings, Lopi or Harmon wood stove would qualify.  It think there is some juggling to be done.


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## SSPENCE (Jun 3, 2009)

TRAVIS INDUSTRIES HAS ALREADY TESTED THERE PRODUCT TO THE LOW BURN STANDARDS LOOKS LIKE MOST OR ALL HAVE PAST.  HAS ANY ONE SEEN ANY THING FROM VERMONT CASTING.  THANKS SHANE


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## Todd (Jun 3, 2009)

asylum575 said:
			
		

> I was just looking at the EPA listing that was updated 5/22/09.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resources/publications/monitoring/caa/woodstoves/certifiedwood.pdf
> 
> ...



Those are just EPA default efficiencies, they throw all non cat stoves in at an average or default of around 63% and cats at 72%. The EPA doesn't test for efficiency, they test for GPH.


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## asylum575 (Jun 3, 2009)

Well,  I had my heart set on a Napoleon 1100c for a corner install.  Double pipe gives you 2" clearance.

If Napoleon doesn't come through with new numbers, I'll go with the Isle Royale.  Bigger stove, local dealer.  The $1500 covers the install and then some.


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## Later (Jun 3, 2009)

Jotul website has a list of their stoves that qualify.


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## SHH_150 (Jun 4, 2009)

Retired Guy said:
			
		

> Jotul website has a list of their stoves that qualify.



Finally!!  F500 now seems so much closer to reality!


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## Wet1 (Jun 4, 2009)

The IRS really dragged their feet on this one!  It will be interesting to see what numbers the manufactures will be claiming...


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## mark_b (Jun 4, 2009)

The Quadra-fire 5100 claims 77%
4100 claims 76.03%
3100I claims 78%
2700I claims 74%

This is probably one of the main reasons I am considering this insert, tax credit and efficiency. I have not seen many reviews on these which is a stopper for me.

Mark


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## Todd (Jun 4, 2009)

I'd really like to see (test results) how they come up with these high efficiency numbers. My stove topped out at 91%! :bug:


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## asylum575 (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm waiting to hear from Napoleon on their 1100C. 

If it doesn't pan out, I'll go all out with a Quadrafire Isle Royale.  Bigger stove and with the rebate it would come in about the same as the 1100C without the rebate.


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## BrotherBart (Jun 4, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> I'd really like to see (test results) how they come up with these high efficiency numbers. My stove topped out at 91%! :bug:



And the reason anybody should care is what? Time and time again it is proven here that people buy stoves based on how they look and how long somebody else claims to get them to burn overnight. Nobody ever requires manufacturers to provide the methodology for establishing burn time numbers or max BTU generation. Why should they care how the lower heating values efficiency number was calculated?


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## asylum575 (Jun 4, 2009)

I think the only reason I'm concerned is whether the stove will qualify for a rebate.

You're right, looks count.  My wife wants cast iron with enamel.  I want long burn time.

If the rebate will apply to one unit and not the other.  The savings would be significant.  A deal maker.  I originally looked at Quadrafires, but the price shyed me away.  $1500 makes a big difference.  With the $1500 rebate, I can get a QF installed for what I would pay for a Napoleon installed by me.  Now, If I can find a good online QF seller, I'd be in business.


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## Todd (Jun 4, 2009)

BrotherBart said:
			
		

> Todd said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I care, because like most others here I'm a stove geek and like to look at all the numbers and how they came to it.


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## Slow1 (Jun 4, 2009)

I care about how they come up with the numbers for several reasons.  First - I want to know if they are meaningful beyond the "does this stove qualify for the rebate" - i.e. does the number really reflect anything to do with how one stove will consume fuel compared to another in real-world applications.  If each mfgr is using a different methodology to qualify then the numbers are certainly not comparable.  Then if they are using the same methodology and that methodology is so idealistic that it doesn't reflect anything near real-world scenarios then again it won't matter beyond the rebate qualification.  

Then my favorite reason - Will the method of qualification in any way encourage stove designs and if so, in what direction?  If a manufacturer were to optimize their stove for a particular test scenario to the exclusion of other environments in such a way that they numbers looked good for this but the majority of real-world installations were different AND those real-world installations had conditions such that the stove performed poorly that would be a problem eh?  On the other hand, if the method of qualification correctly reflected the variety of real-world installations (doubtful) then it could be a useful way of comparing stoves for those of us who would like to get a more efficient model - thus if one stove qualified at 81% and another at 91% and all other factors were equal but cost, perhaps it would be worth a few more $'s to buy the higher rated one.


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## asylum575 (Jun 4, 2009)

Just got off the phone with the local dealer.  Prices went up a bit, big surprise with the rebate announced.  

Isle Royale installed with 2 story through the wall.  $6000 with blower. 
Seems high to me.


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## Wet1 (Jun 4, 2009)

Sounds VERY high to me!


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## Slow1 (Jun 4, 2009)

Now that will be an interesting trend to watch... how many dealers will try to increase their profits by raising prices through this.  I expect a wait and see approach may be good - I can't imagine that all dealers will do so and those that don't will get the business.  Perhaps not - what a game eh?


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## asylum575 (Jun 4, 2009)

I've priced out installing a Napoleon 1100C myself for $3000.  That includes stove, pipe,chimney, blower, and hearth pad.  If the stove qualifies for the rebate, I could claim $600-900 depending if the pipe can be included.  Probably not, I think it's for the appliance.  That's fine, since I installed a new door earlier this year and can take some Energystar credit for that.

I don't think I'll get the Isle Royale for $6000-$1500=$4500.  Bigger stove, but twice the price.


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## johnn (Jun 5, 2009)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> Now that will be an interesting trend to watch... how many dealers will try to increase their profits by raising prices through this.  I expect a wait and see approach may be good - I can't imagine that all dealers will do so and those that don't will get the business.  Perhaps not - what a game eh?



I mentioned concern over price increases due to this "tax rebate" in the first thread that hit the board. Assuming those increases would extend beyond the creditable years. I believe the response I got was something like,,,"thats capitalism",,,sooothing.


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## onesojourner (Jun 17, 2009)

Does any one know for sure if you can include a liner in this tax rebate?


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## BrotherBart (Jun 18, 2009)

onesojourner said:
			
		

> Does any one know for sure if you can include a liner in this tax rebate?



Yep. Everything it has to have to make it work. Including labor if you pay somebody else to install it.


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## stejus (Jun 18, 2009)

I'm including everything listed below because it was my investment to put in an energy efficient stove and pass inspection.

Stove
Liner
Liner insulation
Stone hearth extension
Stone mantle 
Chimney cap
Labor for all above

At 30% back, I'm expecting $1334 for a credit.


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## kuma.jason (Jun 18, 2009)

Slow1 said:
			
		

> I care about how they come up with the numbers for several reasons.  First - I want to know if they are meaningful beyond the "does this stove qualify for the rebate" - i.e. does the number really reflect anything to do with how one stove will consume fuel compared to another in real-world applications.  If each mfgr is using a different methodology to qualify then the numbers are certainly not comparable.  Then if they are using the same methodology and that methodology is so idealistic that it doesn't reflect anything near real-world scenarios then again it won't matter beyond the rebate qualification.



This is what we have been told by the independent Lab that tests our stoves for EPA standards. 

1. The calculation method is standardized.  It was proposed by the Hearth Patio and Barbecue Association, endorsed by the USEPA, and approved by the IRS.
2. The calculation is made using test data from emissions testing.

The flaw is this:  The calculation can be made using test data from the actual EPA certification test series OR data from any R and D test burn leading up to the EPA series.  A stove can have dozens of R and D runs and we only have to calculate based on the best one.   If we use one of the better test runs to calculate efficiency and just squeak past 75%, there is a good chance that a long average would show that stove to be less than 75%.  

How much difference does 5, or even 10 percent make when it only takes me 3.5 Cord/year to heat my home?  I say choose your stove for features, the style you like, customer service, etc..  As long as it is 75% or better, it's good enough for the tax credit.  Hope that helps.


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## karl (Jun 18, 2009)

I would be curious to know how efficient a stove is at putting heat into the room.  I know I'm down a bit on efficiency with my insert, but it  would be nice to see a number.


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## Slow1 (Jun 18, 2009)

karl said:
			
		

> I would be curious to know how efficient a stove is at putting heat into the room.  I know I'm down a bit on efficiency with my insert, but it  would be nice to see a number.



I'm with you there.

EPA concern is reducing smoke/emissions from stoves.  That's great and I know that there is a relationship between that and the heat output.  I tend to believe that all EPA stoves this day have that issue pretty much under control if one is burning good dry/seasoned wood.  So for the sake of productive conversation let's for the moment accept that stoves are functionally equal/adequate in this regard.  Let's also accept that the owner/operator will be feeding the stove quality wood and operating in a proper manner.

Now, given these two assumptions - I would like to have some objective way of comparing which stoves put out the most heat into the room per cord of wood during normal operations on average with a 24/7 burning pattern.

I submit, based on my my limited observation of my former stove (VC Encore NC) and discussions here, that there are stoves that although quite 'efficient' by EPA standards may actually not throw as much heat into the room, presumably allowing more heat to go up the chimney than necessary.

Thoughts?


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## Wet1 (Jun 18, 2009)

karl said:
			
		

> I would be curious to know how efficient a stove is at putting heat into the room.  I know I'm down a bit on efficiency with my insert, but it  would be nice to see a number.


Good point, but if the heat isn't going up the stack, it's being transfered to the surrounding areas.  As far as real world numbers go, I wouldn't plan on seeing 75%!


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## carinya (Jun 18, 2009)

If higher stack temp means more heat leaving the building....would this suggest that a cat stove is more efficient at throwing heat because it seems to operate at a lower stack temp ?

Alternatively, the same amount of heat may be leaving the building, just over a longer period


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## thechimneysweep (Jun 18, 2009)

> What the heck does that mean, “as measured using a lower heating value”?  Anybody know?



Here's the skinny on lower heat value efficiency calculation, as I understand it: http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/protocols.htm.  The numbers shown aren't representative of actual real-world heat values; I wanted to use whole numbers to make the math easier to understand at a glance.


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Jun 18, 2009)

^^^ maybe in some cases, but if so, why are all the makers going/have gone to secondary combustion sysytems??
opinions abound, lol


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## Slow1 (Jun 18, 2009)

So having read the "high heat value" vs "low heat value" article (thanks Tom) it seems that if the assumption is 10% goes up the flue there may be a time when some stoves could hit over 100% if technology gets to the point where the flue gasses are clean enough to not require as much draft etc eh?  Perhaps some great cat stove putting out just steam and CO/CO2 eh?  Just wondering...   Tom - the article mentions 10% - is that merely an example or is that the actual adjustment number used?


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## Todd (Jun 18, 2009)

Wood Heat Stoves said:
			
		

> ^^^ maybe in some cases, but if so, why are all the makers going/have gone to secondary combustion sysytems??
> opinions abound, lol



All makers aren't going to secondary burn systems. Energy King switched back to catalytic and told me because it was more efficient. But if I were to guess why some have switched to burn tubes, I'd have to say there are too many people out there that burn improperly or burn garbage, scrap lumber or wet wood which is death for a catalyst. So manufactures just didn't want to deal with it anymore. 

If your a serious 24/7 wood burner who takes care of his/her system and wood supply a cat stove experience can be excellent. Starting out cats are more efficient, but over time they probably even out with non cats as they degrade at the end of their lifespan.


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## Wood Heat Stoves (Jun 18, 2009)

Todd said:
			
		

> Wood Heat Stoves said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Energy King, Blaze King > we have been dealers for many years
both products my customers have loved for ever, but they ARE in the minority
i agree, cat stoves are great> i replace very few cats each year, with good care they last along time

secondary combustion is so much nicer looking though

ps  i should've said " all the "MAJOR" makers"


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## Wet1 (Jun 18, 2009)

carinya said:
			
		

> If higher stack temp means more heat leaving the building....would this suggest that a cat stove is more efficient at throwing heat because it seems to operate at a lower stack temp ?
> 
> Alternatively, the same amount of heat may be leaving the building, just over a longer period


Yes, cats are generally more efficient.  The down side is they need replacing every 6 to 10 years (at $100 to $300) and as Todd stated, they require a died of clean wood (no trash).


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## tradergordo (Jun 19, 2009)

If a stove doesn't qualify for the rebate, there must be some serious problem, I would not buy it.  I was looking at Vermont castings just out of curiosity because I own one of their stoves, and it looks to me like basically every model they sell qualifies, 43 models are listed specifically:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/38911/


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