# Installer Said Outside Air Kit Not Necessary?????



## Drew1024 (Aug 3, 2008)

I just purchased the mt vernon ae and have had some potential installers come to the house for some pricing and evaluation of my install.  The guy that came today suggested that an outside air kit was overkill and may do more harm than good in sub zero temperatures.  He believes bringing that kind of cold air into the house (stove) will hurt its efficiency.  I've never heard this before?  Thoughts?  FYI, my house was built in 2007.


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

Drew1024 said:
			
		

> I just purchased the mt vernon ae and have had some potential installers come to the house for some pricing and evaluation of my install.  The guy that came today suggested that an outside air kit was overkill and may do more harm than good in sub zero temperatures.  He believes bringing that kind of cold air into the house (stove) will hurt its efficiency.  I've never heard this before?  Thoughts?  FYI, my house was built in 2007.


I`d get another opinion.


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## hellday (Aug 3, 2008)

I went to 4 dealers and they all told me the same... No OAK needed.. The one i am purchasing from is rated as a good dealer by Quadra-fire.. So go figure..


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## chuckpp (Aug 3, 2008)

If you don't have a outside air kit what will happen it will 
draw air in from every crack in the house and you will have a cold draft...
c


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

chuckpp said:
			
		

> If you don't have a outside air kit what will happen it will
> draw air in from every crack in the house and you will have a cold draft...
> c



and not just that, you are also wasting your pellets to heat the air around the stove that you then suck back through to burn and send outside.


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## webbie (Aug 3, 2008)

I think some of them are giving you wood stove wisdom...for a pellet stove. They are not the same......pellet stove used forced draft (electric combustion blower), and an incredible amount of air is used....as compared to a wood stove.

The stove will need air. If you keep the house fairly loose (in and outside a lot, let the dog out, crack windows), then you will have enough air - but, if the house is kept fairly tight, the stove can depressurize the house, causing potential problems.


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## kinsmanstoves (Aug 3, 2008)

I have yet to find a house in this are, N/E Ohio, where I have done an install that needs an outside air kit.  Your clothes dryer moves more air from your house to the outside of your house than a pellet stove.  Does your clothes dryer need an outside air kit?

Eric


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## chuckpp (Aug 3, 2008)

So if your pellet stove is at the other end of the house you will have a cold draft from one end of the house to the other...
c


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## kinsmanstoves (Aug 3, 2008)

If you feel drafts across your house.  You need more than a pellet stove to help you.  Windows, doors, insulation, caulk, and some siding might help.

Eric


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> I have yet to find a house in this are, N/E Ohio, where I have done an install that needs an outside air kit.  Your clothes dryer moves more air from your house to the outside of your house than a pellet stove.  Does your clothes dryer need an outside air kit?
> Eric



If the Combustion fan doesnt move much air, would you be willing to put the same fan in your window and leave it on all winter blowing your heated air outside? Without an OAK, that is exactly what you are doing.

if I could hookup a outside air kit to my dryer I would


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## kinsmanstoves (Aug 3, 2008)

When you bring in the air from the outside it has to condensate somewhere. If it is in the pipe it will come into the combustion blower, sooner or later or will it start and stay in the combustion blower. Why bring in the cold outside air into a computer controlled device that has electric motors, blowers, and wire harnesses. Use the room air. If there is a problem because the house is tightly wrapped that might be a need for an outside air kit but I still would have a heard time bringing the outside air directly into the stove. A combustion blower is around 72 CFM and if it draws in air via cracks in the house you will not notice any "drafts" with that small of a blower.


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## Drew1024 (Aug 3, 2008)

Thanks for all your replies.  So what I'm gathering from all this info is that there really is not a true answer.  everyone has their own philosophies I guess.  The only thing I can tell you guys is that my house was built in 2007, was wrapped in Tyvec wrap, and that my install will be in a corner where there are already three windows (which is why I need to do a vertical install).  Would this, then, change the equation?


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## kinsmanstoves (Aug 3, 2008)

I would try the stove without the kit. If there is a problem, i.e. bad flame, heavy soot on glass door, bad looking ash, I would say run the stove with a window cracked. If there is a noticeable difference then ad an outside air kit. 

I have to run, we are doing a festival down the road and I need to set up the stoves. Weather looks great for today.
Later

P.S.
With sunny days it is important to hydrate........12oz. at a time.

Eric


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## oak194 (Aug 3, 2008)

Ok I know this is kind off subject a little, but I am having a Quadrafire 7100 installed int eh next couple weeks, which also calls for a outside air kit. Which is a slight pain due to the air intake is on the right side of the FP and  outside is only to the left. Which means more flex pipe, etc. So does this FP really need a outside air kit? Installer says so, but my house is not air tight.

Just a simple question.


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> When you bring in the air from the outside it has to condensate somewhere. If it is in the pipe it will come into the combustion blower, sooner or later or will it start and stay in the combustion blower. Why bring in the cold outside air into a computer controlled device that has electric motors, blowers, and wire harnesses. Use the room air.



I have to disagree with you. Cold air has Much less moisture in it than warm air. Dont air conditioners remove water when producing cold air? dont people use humidifiers in the winter do to lack of moisture? So using your warm air theory would create more moisture would it not?
 However, as far as your statement about outside air around computer controlled device, electric motors, blowers, and wire harness. none of that makes sense to me either. If this is true then you would have to have a major leak in your combustion venting since all of those items are not within the 'sealed' combustion air flow area except for the fan blades of the combustion motor while the motor itself is sealed on the other side protected from any contaminants 



> A combustion blower is around 72 CFM and if it draws in air via cracks in the house you will not notice any "drafts" with that small of a blower.




72cfm doesnt sound like much, but doing some quick numbers ( and Please check these, since the final outcome is much greater than I thought)
72cfm=4,320 cf/Hour = 103,680 cf/Day

lets take a "shell" house of 1500 sq feet - Shell meaning NOTHING inside taking up space which actually decreases the number significatly ( no walls, floors, stairs, TV,  stove, refridge, bed, ect)
1500sq feet with (x) 8' ceilings = 12,000 cubic feet

a fan moving 103,680cf/day in a house of 12,000 cubic feet will replace all the air in the house 8.6 times a day not only would it replace the air, it would be replaced with Cold air needing to be heated just to be removed again.


this seemed alot to me so I also figured as.. 
A 72cfm fan is the same as a box slightly larger that 4'x4'x4', so I'll round down to a 4' square box per minute
In a house ( again a Shell) thats 1500sq/ft or 40'wide (10boxes) by 37.5' long (apx 9.5 boxes) with 8' ceilings ( stacked 2 high) = 190 boxes to fill the house
Start stacking those boxes 1 every minute. ( 72cfm) and the house will fill in 190 minutes (3hrs 10 minutes) = which is the same as removing all the air every 3hr 10 min which is over 8 times a day

how many pellets would it take to keep 'heating' this area from the outside air temp to inside setting VS pellets used to just keep the temp level when using air from the outside for combustion ( since there isnt any air exchange inside)?


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## mralias (Aug 3, 2008)

No house is completely tight. My feelings is that outside an air vent in 90% of cases is overkill and hurts more then helps. The exception would be in a mobile home which is real tight and would require an outside vent. If you have a chimney, dryer, bathroom vent, etc etc etc, it will find the air from these sources.


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

FredJ said:
			
		

> kinsman stoves said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent post! 
 This subject has been beaten to death simply because the negative effects are almost always unnoticeable and omitting it makes the installation quicker, easier , and cheaper. 
However, common sense should prevail.


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## no1psycho (Aug 3, 2008)

OK, so now I'm totally confused.  I'm getting a Summer's Heat stove mid-August.  All of the stoves from ESW state that the OAK is mandatory when installing one of there stoves.  Why would the manufacturer make it mandatory?  Is this for legal reasons???

Thanks,
Greg


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

mralias said:
			
		

> No house is completely tight. My feelings is that outside an air vent in 90% of cases is overkill and hurts more then helps. The exception would be in a mobile home which is real tight and would require an outside vent. If you have a chimney, dryer, bathroom vent, etc etc etc, it will find the air from these sources.



Quite possible , but you are now creating a forced draft  by sucking in unnecessary infiltrated air .  Doesn`t make any sense to me to  install a pellet stove to save money and then create forced drafts.
 Didn`t you read the post from FredJ?


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

Drew1024 said:
			
		

> Thanks for all your replies.  So what I'm gathering from all this info is that there really is not a true answer.  everyone has their own philosophies I guess.  The only thing I can tell you guys is that my house was built in 2007, was wrapped in Tyvec wrap, and that my install will be in a corner where there are already three windows (which is why I need to do a vertical install).  Would this, then, change the equation?



But there is a true answer , it`s just rarely obvious . Just from reading the many forum posts on this subject  it`s easy to conclude that the absence of an OAK will seldom (rarely) cause a stove to function abnormally but that doesn`t mean it isn`t creating cold air drafts and adding to your heating demands not to mention the possibility of altering the pressurization of the house on occasions.


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> no1psycho said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Let`s assume ESW`s mandatory OAK requirement is in fact for legal reasons (protection against lawsuits). Do you think they would add this potential expense where other competitors ignore the same?
 The reason is obvious. The potential does in fact exist.


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

> so air displacement heat loss @ 100K btu/day would be a nice manageable figure.



So a 30kbtu stove would burn an extra 3hours and 20 minutes a day more than the same stove with an OAK right?



> so i guess that 12lbs of pellets would be max heatloss due to air infiltration for unit running constantly with 50* temp differential. [16Mbtu/ton @ 10% humidity content of pellets]



Thats about 1 extra bag every 3 days at $5/bag ( prices vary alot- so figuring $250 a ton) which equals $50 a month then add the 3hrs20 min a day to that for the extra running time of 100 hours (or 4 days) extra/month--- too much for me to literally put up the smoke stack....


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

Lets see now, my Harman user manual states OAK as optional (mandatory in small homes and mobilehomes) but claims that an OAK increases efficiency. I assume this benefit has to be the same when installed with any stove brand.
 Doesn`t it make good sense to install an OAK to have the stove operate with as much efficiency as possible?  Why else go thru all the expense and work of utilizing a stove if not to benefit to the max?


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

Installing a pellet stove with an OAK does not in any way change the quantity of available air you breath in your home.
 If you are OK without a stove why would that volume change with a stove and an OAK?


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

> GOTTA HAVE FRESH AIR TO BREATHE! do a little research on “indoor air pollution” from EPA sites.



I am confused.. 
Why wouldnt you have fresh air to breath? Without an OAK yes you are pulling in fresh air, but WITH an OAK its like not even having the stove installed.. either way there isnt any air contamination ( unless of course you are pulling in the smokey exhaust when NOT using a OAK- wouldnt happen with an OAK) . 
So why this statement?


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## MCPO (Aug 3, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> Giovanni said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Because the air from an OAK is specifically directed into the combustion and up the chimney. It shouldn`t affect the equation of the normal household air.
 The purpose, function, design , or effect of a pellet stove should not be for drawing in fresh air to breath.


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## JPapiPE (Aug 3, 2008)

I have tried to post the page dealing with Outside Air Requirements from my 13NC Englander Stove Manuel.(file was too large) If you read it, it is says outside air is required for mobile homes and double-wides and  tightly weather sealed homes.

I did do a lot of complaining about this requirement because my mobile home is a hybrid, 600 sq. ft is stick built (2X6 walls) and 500 sq. ft.is the original trailer, plus it has a trussed roof installed over the original roof and additions and it has gable end vents and soffit vents. It also has an attic access stairway.  2 of the walls of the original trailer have been cut away to provide for the stick built portions. My mobile is 40 years old. For such small square footage I did burn 750 gallons of K-1 last year. I also run a full size dryer in my moble. Do i think i need an outside air hook-up. No way. But code requires me to put one in so I will.

I'm just wondering how much this cold outside air is costing me in lost BTU's required to heat this cold air?


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## webbie (Aug 3, 2008)

Much of this stuff is regional based on climate and building standards....I think the state of MN, for instance, has requirements for tight construction and outside air.

Using a more simple guide, folks who live in cold climates should usually consider OAKs for pellet stoves.

Our friend, John Gulland, has done extensive research on the negative pressure caused by solid fuel stoves of various types. 
http://www.gulland.ca/NegativePressureTestProtocolRPT.htm
http://www.gulland.ca/HarmonizationRPT.htm
http://www.gulland.ca/products/fieldtest.htm

Note that John seems to not suggest OAK on regular natural draft stoves and fireplaces........but on forced draft systems it may be required. 

Personally, I would decide based on a number of factors - what the maker says, the tightness of my home, the ease of installing it, how often I was going to use the stove....and especially how open the room was to other areas of the home. I would definitely attempt to use OAK in smaller rooms and areas not open to most of the house.


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## JPapiPE (Aug 3, 2008)

Yes, Ok for breathing, but doesn't my clothes dryer that I used all winter with a 4" hose to the outside have the same potential to suffocate one?

Please ellucidate Glowball? (Damn there's  that big word again, I'm sure to get some nasty posts about it like I did the last time I used it....about 20) Are you saying by spending a bunch of money I don't have, I can buy some gizmo to mitigate my heat loss?

I'm just still miffed after all these months that I still have to heat my stove with cold air. I'll get over it in 2 or 3 years.


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

JPapiPE said:
			
		

> yes Ok for breathing, but doesn't my dryer that i used all winter with a 4" hose to the outside have the same potential to suffocate one?



I dont think most people run their dryers 24hrs a day thereby not allowing time for the house to relace the removed air


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## webbie (Aug 3, 2008)

Very much so, JP....in fact, Gulland was called into many houses where woodstoves were not working correctly because of the dryer and other such ventilation. The combination of all these things can add up.

But I somewhat agree that a powered unit - like a pellet stove...in most cases will simply end up sucking more air into the house through cracks (as opposed to misbehaving)........

I spoke to some experts about this years ago and learned all kinds of things...for instance, there were lawsuits against woodstove makers because of soot covering the walls in a house. After investigation, the culprit in this (and many other) situations turned out to be.....attached garages. Think about it - when you start your car it spews exhaust into your garage. If the house is depressurized, the house pulls in this exhaust though seals in the door, etc. - 

Another big culprit was candles.

The important thing is to keep in mind all of the various systems at work. Personally, I almost never use candles....and I pull out of the garage immediately.


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## JPapiPE (Aug 3, 2008)

Geez, we never had these problems 40 years ago. All we did was knock out a window pane and replace it with a piece of tin and cut a hole for our stove pipe and we never died. 

And yes Fred I run my dryer 24/7 as I have stock in a couple of Power companies... He He


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

JPapiPE said:
			
		

> And yes Fred I run my dryer 24/7 as I have stock in a couple of Power companies... He He



Well why didnt you say so before?? I'll go turn on all my lights, stove and dryer and help you out a little...


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## JPapiPE (Aug 3, 2008)

OK Glowball i used your link to calculate the difference in output between K-1 and Hardwood Cords. I burned 750 gallons of K-1 last year at an output of 101.25 million BTU'S  and then I did the calc on the 4 cord of seasoned Hardwood I have and came up with a total output of 96Million BTU'S for the wood.  

At first glance it does seem reasonable, but the fact is that I kept my thermosthat at 60 degrees last year while burning K-1. I got to say as a former woodburner for 9 years there is no wayI'll burn 4 cords this winter and I sure as hell won't be shivering at a temp setting of 60 degrees.

I know you are only passing on information of some persons studies and I applaud  your vilgilance for trying to stay on top of the game, but there is some item that is not being factored in. I know my parlor will be at least 82 degress (where the stove is installed) and my perifery rooms will be between 65 and 55 degrees, depending on how far they are from the wood stove and whether or not i'm running the fans.

Most respectfully, Joe (certified fool)


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## mralias (Aug 3, 2008)

OK OK I give I give.....You have all convinced me to do an OAK. I have the stove installed as an insert in a massonary chimeny. 3" exhust pipe with the standard plate covering the top of the 8" flu. What if I was to put a hole in the plate covering the top flu. Would the air now be pulled back down the chimney? Am I going to run into sucking the smoke back down the chimeny from the vent pipe?  The quad instructions state you should run a OAK back up the flu next to the exhust pipe and must be 12" below the exhust pipe. No way it would be 12" as it stands now. Could I add a small dryer vent style pipe at the top plate in the flu and run it along side the chimney down away from the exhust pipe? Looking for suggestion. I am not going to cut through the brick chimney to get fresh air. That is not going to happen. Any suggestions would be great.


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## flashbang (Aug 3, 2008)

*Outdoor combustion air was a good idea . . . until it was studied.*

_The outdoor combustion air myth got started about forty years ago when safety and construction standards were written for mobile homes.  Because they were small and factory-built, it was believed that mobile homes were air tight.  As a result, all wood, oil and gas furnaces, stoves and fireplaces had to get their air from outdoors.  Because these air supplies were invariably routed straight down into the ventilated crawl space under the mobile home, they didn't cause too many problems, so it was assumed that they actually worked.

In the 1980s, when large exhaust systems – like downdraft kitchen range exhausts – began to cause spillage from fireplaces in reasonably tight houses, a consensus quickly formed around the idea of bringing combustion air from outdoors, just as had been done in mobile homes for decades. Such certainty existed among housing technologists and regulatory authorities on the issue of outdoor combustion air that it was made mandatory in most building codes. Unfortunately, the decision to enforce mandatory outdoor air rules was made before research was done to investigate how they actually work._

Take from it what you will. I see no need for it myself, in a house.
This is a direct quote from :
http://www.woodheat.org/outdoorair/outdoorairmyth.htm


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## Todd (Aug 3, 2008)

mralias said:
			
		

> OK OK I give I give.....You have all convinced me to do an OAK. I have the stove installed as an insert in a massonary chimeny. 3" exhust pipe with the standard plate covering the top of the 8" flu. What if I was to put a hole in the plate covering the top flu. Would the air now be pulled back down the chimney? Am I going to run into sucking the smoke back down the chimeny from the vent pipe? The quad instructions state you should run a OAK back up the flu next to the exhust pipe and must be 12" below the exhust pipe. No way it would be 12" as it stands now. Could I add a small dryer vent style pipe at the top plate in the flu and run it along side the chimney down away from the exhust pipe? Looking for suggestion. I am not going to cut through the brick chimney to get fresh air. That is not going to happen. Any suggestions would be great.



Extend your exhaust pipe and follow the Quad manual recommendation for your OAK.


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## FredJ (Aug 3, 2008)

flashbang said:
			
		

> *Outdoor combustion air was a good idea . . . until it was studied.*
> 
> _The outdoor combustion air myth got started about forty years ago when safety and construction standards were written for mobile homes.  Because they were small and factory-built, it was believed that mobile homes were air tight.  As a result, all wood, oil and gas furnaces, stoves and fireplaces had to get their air from outdoors.  Because these air supplies were invariably routed straight down into the ventilated crawl space under the mobile home, they didn't cause too many problems, so it was assumed that they actually worked.
> 
> ...



I skimmed that fairly quickly and come away with what they say is NOT having a OAK ( what they call "Passive make-up air supplies" ) is worse that a OAK ( they call "Direct-to-combustion chamber outdoor air supplies") What it looks like to me is that they are comparing the two using a fireplace, or wood stove ( Actual quote is "...with a duct attached running to the stove or fireplace" - and due to the websiite being  Woodheat.org I believe they are not referencing pellet stoves that use a fan to Force the exhaust out the exhaust vent. (I could not find "pellet" or pellet stove listed.) I am pretty sure they are only refering to items with a natural draft.... I may be wrong..


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## rona (Aug 3, 2008)

My response would be that I bought the stove to save money. Heating the air inside my house and then blowing it outdoors and bringing in cold air to replace it  doesn't seem logical.
  Bringing in outside air directly into the stove shouldn't hurt anything on the stove as that cold air is contained until it is sucked into the burning chamber.
   The only downside I noticed is if the temp changed in a hurry as  in a blizzard situation the stove would react a little different because of the drastic temp change of the incoming air.  You wouldn't have that if you were burning inside air.


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## Todd (Aug 3, 2008)

I love this debate. There are good arguments on both sides, but I'll side with the OAK. I installed OAK's on both my Fireplace and stove and have found it does increase the efficiency. Some people say stoves whether it be wood or pellet just don't use enough air to make a difference. I say the opposite is true. Go outside and look at your chimney, that exhaust you see is the same amount of cold air being drawn into your home through cracks or windows if you have no OAK. I'd rather have the heat pushed out towards the cracks. The stove may burn fine without it, but you will burn more to make up for the heat lose. Like Fred says, it's the equivalent of a hole in your wall with a 50-100 cfm fan blowing cold air in.


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## jbroich (Aug 3, 2008)

I tend to think like you, Todd. Knowing that my 1923 house has plenty of gaps allowing air infiltration does not make me more inclined to rely on inside air that will only encourage the rush of cold air into the house; it only makes me more interested in an OAK.

[By the way, I'm in the research stage. Grew up in a house heated by a soapstone stove and a big ol' steel stove in the garage with heat ducted to the house. Natural gas prices seem to me driving me back into wood heat's warm embrace. Thanks to my research here I am narrowing my options, with Lopi Declaration (and Travis variants) and Jotul's c 350 or 450 at the top of the list.]


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## JPapiPE (Aug 3, 2008)

Damn, I wander away for a few hours and Fred gets turned loose and Glowball changes his sex. I feel like i can't leave you youngsters alone for 5 minutes. LOL 


Your Buddy Joe

I think I'll try to sell my belly on E-Bay and start reading The National Enquireer


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## rcredsox (Aug 4, 2008)

Here is a picture from the Quad Mt Vernon insert (AE) manual showing the full reline with outside air (OAK) specs.
The picture shows the outside air going out an outside wall AND running up the inside of the chimney.

It is not clear from the picture,  is it necessary to run the OAK out the outside wall AND up the inside of the chimney or just one OR the other?


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## DiggerJim (Aug 4, 2008)

rcredsox said:
			
		

> Here is a picture from the Quad Mt Vernon insert (AE) manual showing the full reline with outside air (OAK) specs.
> The picture shows the outside air going out an outside wall AND running up the inside of the chimney.
> 
> It is not clear from the picture,  is it necessary to run the OAK out the outside wall AND up the inside of the chimney or just one OR the other?


Either/Or not both.


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## rcredsox (Aug 4, 2008)

In my masonry fireplace (located on an outside wall), I have a small door in the front of the firebrick floor that when open, provides outside air from a channel underneath the fireplace that is vented (with a screen) to the outside of my chimney.

I have a Mt Vernon AE insert pellet stove on order.  If the stove sits on the firebrick floor it will probably cover up this opening.   Can anyone think of a way I can reuse this outside air connection for my pellet stove?  

Here is a picture of the small door location.


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## TMonter (Aug 4, 2008)

> Our friend, John Gulland, has done extensive research on the negative pressure caused by solid fuel stoves of various types.



My problem with Gulland's advice is he assumes a specific ductwork arrangement that could cause problems when all that is needed is proper ducting design for an Outside air system even on a natural draft device.

A properly designed outside air system will always be a benefit, even on a wood stove system.


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## kinsmanstoves (Aug 4, 2008)

WOW

You guys need a better hobby on a Sunday.  I left the forum on Sunday morning and just got back on.  This thread is huge.  Great info and has me thinking, kinda good for a Monday morning.

Some nice posting
Eric


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## mralias (Aug 4, 2008)

Ohhhh my brain hurts......What type of Outside Air Pipe should be used? Please don't tell me the same expensive stuff as the vent pipe. Hope there is a cheaper alternative. Thanks. The owners manual does not tell you anything about the type of pipe to use.


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## chuckpp (Aug 4, 2008)

I would buy the Harman thr the wall kit....or direct vent only one hole in the wall...


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## MCPO (Aug 4, 2008)

mralias said:
			
		

> Ohhhh my brain hurts......What type of Outside Air Pipe should be used? Please don't tell me the same expensive stuff as the vent pipe. Hope there is a cheaper alternative. Thanks. The owners manual does not tell you anything about the type of pipe to use.


Home Depot sells an inexpensive  3" flexible aluminum duct that fits right over the intake flange and clamped.


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## rona (Aug 4, 2008)

If you can look inside the little door can you see the opening going towards the back of the fireplace under the floor of the fire place? Maybe a flashlight and stick a yardstick or tape measure inside the door to see if the opening goes all the way back. If it does you may be able to remove one firebrick and make a steel plate with a 2 inch hole for the fresh air flex pipe to fit into.  Maybe it will work depending on how much room you have and where the fresh air attaches to the insert.


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## alexdrozd (Aug 4, 2008)

What about all furnaces and water heaters? All of these require combustion and emit exhaust and they don't require OAKs. Where is all their makeup air coming from? So I guess if you own one of these units you will need to put an OAK on it too!


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## cac4 (Aug 4, 2008)

ssman said:
			
		

> What about all furnaces and water heaters? All of these require combustion and emit exhaust and they don't require OAKs. Where is all their makeup air coming from? So I guess if you own one of these units you will need to put an OAK on it too!



electric water heaters don't use air.  some newer furnaces/boilers DO require OAK.  those that don't...yeah, they're sucking it in from outside, and thats an inefficiency that is overcome by a pellet burner with an oak.


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## rona (Aug 4, 2008)

If you read the instruction manuals and do what it says you probably will live through it regardless if you are sucking hot air from the room for combustion or using outside air. This subject has been beat into the dirt.


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## alexdrozd (Aug 4, 2008)

cac4 said:
			
		

> ssman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not electric water heaters, propane or oil. Probably 95% of furnaces don't require an air kit.


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## gw2kpro (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons here, I don't understand some of the logic regarding "if you don't install an OAK you are just pullling cold air into your house and having to heat it with more pellets".

It seems to me, whether or not you install an OAK, you are pulling the exact same amount of cold air into the house.  In one way, the cold air is drawn directly into the stove.  In the other way, the cold air is drawn in through cracks in the house.

The same volume of cold air is drawn into the house, whether through cracks or through a hole you cut into the side of the house specifically for that purpose.

If you cut the hole for an OAK, the cold air is drawn directly into the stove, meaning that this cold air is constantly cooling off the stove, and you have to "burn more pellets" to heat the stove.

If you don't install an OAK, the cold air is drawn directly into the room, meaning that the stove will have to burn more pellets to heat the room itself.

If it's zero degrees outside, a huge volume of zero degree air is eiyther drawn into the stove and out the exhaust, to heat that amount of air up takes a lot of pellets.  OR the zero degree air is drawn directly into the room and the stove is having to put out more heat to compensate for the air drawn into the room and heating up that air takes a lot of pellets.

I'm having a hard time understanding how one way would burn more pellets than the other.  In thinking it through, I think the OAK is more of a requirement to ensure that the stove will burn properly, rather than an efficiency gain, wouldn't a stove manufacturer market it if requiring a OAK would get you more overall heat?


----------



## cac4 (Aug 4, 2008)

Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons here, I don't understand some of the logic regarding "if you don't install an OAK you are just pullling cold air into your house and having to heat it with more pellets".
> 
> It seems to me, whether or not you install an OAK, you are pulling the exact same amount of cold air into the house.  In one way, the cold air is drawn directly into the stove.  In the other way, the cold air is drawn in through cracks in the house.


if pulled directly into the stove, it doesn't mix with the air in your house;  it gets heated by the fire, and sent out the exhaust pipe.  it doesn't cool the air in your house.  


			
				Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> The same volume of cold air is drawn into the house, whether through cracks or through a hole you cut into the side of the house specifically for that purpose.


um...no.  not at all.  air drawn in through cracks in your house cools off the air in the interior of your house.  air drawn directly into the stove through an oak does not.  


			
				Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> If you cut the hole for an OAK, the cold air is drawn directly into the stove, meaning that this cold air is constantly cooling off the stove, and you have to "burn more pellets" to heat the stove.


no again.  there isn't any air on this planet that is cold enough to "cool off" a fire.  otherwise, we wouldn't need firemen to put out house fires in the winter.  If anything, it makes the fire hotter, because colder air is more dense, and contains a higher concentration of oxygen, which feeds the fire even more.  


			
				Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> If you don't install an OAK, the cold air is drawn directly into the room, meaning that the stove will have to burn more pellets to heat the room itself.


that is correct.


			
				Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> If it's zero degrees outside, a huge volume of zero degree air is eiyther drawn into the stove and out the exhaust, to heat that amount of air up takes a lot of pellets.  OR the zero degree air is drawn directly into the room and the stove is having to put out more heat to compensate for the air drawn into the room and heating up that air takes a lot of pellets.


we don't really care about the combustion air...not that the exhaust would be at all colder in the cold weather.  the fire in the combustion area of the stove heats up metal stuff (plates or tubes) which touch room air on the other side.  (that way, you don't get any fumes in the room).  fire heats metal...metal heats room air...blower circulates warmed room air.  This is called "heat exchange".  
I'm sure the computer compensates for the air/fuel mixture, irt colder outside air.  if anything, you'll burn less pellets when the air is colder, as that cold air has a higher concentration of oxygen.  


			
				Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> I'm having a hard time understanding how one way would burn more pellets than the other.  In thinking it through, I think the OAK is more of a requirement to ensure that the stove will burn properly, rather than an efficiency gain, wouldn't a stove manufacturer market it if requiring a OAK would get you more overall heat?


well...they do.  at least, to some extent.  it says in my manual that it'll burn more efficiently with an OAK.


----------



## North of 60 (Aug 4, 2008)

Good answer's cac 4. Ive mentioned these things before on a thread about O>A>Kits in this forum before. Ive discussed this in more depth on the earlier thread. (Do I need an outside air kit installed) Another plus of an OAK is if you are humidifying your house during the
heating season then an OAK is a no brain-er.


----------



## FredJ (Aug 4, 2008)

Giovanni said:
			
		

> mralias said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah HD does sell a kit, I tried that and returned it its really crappy like a very streached out spring with Mylar over it ( at least 3 years ago it was) I got mine from the local dealer who told me they buy it from the local Muffler repair shop. Its a very heavy grade flexible (I think its 4"? maybe 3") pipe it fits very snugly over my intake pipe and a clamp isnt needed. I cut the exact same size hole through my wall, caulked around it and put the hood ( also from my dealer) over the end - I think total cost was about $20-$25


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## MCPO (Aug 5, 2008)

FredJ said:
			
		

> Giovanni said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope, you bought the wrong stuff at HD. Yeah, It is crappy stuff .
   I`m talking the 3" aluminum springy stuff (no mylar) Not really heavy grade though but adequate. 
 Sounds like you got something even better though and priced right.


----------



## mralias (Aug 5, 2008)

Just when I had it all figured out.....I measured the OAK vent on the stove and the CB1200i Quad has a 2" vent pipe. Anyone know where I can find 2" flex pipe at a 20' length?


----------



## rona (Aug 5, 2008)

two inch flex exhaust tubing will work just fine and is available at just about any automotive store.


----------



## MCPO (Aug 5, 2008)

mralias said:
			
		

> Just when I had it all figured out.....I measured the OAK vent on the stove and the CB1200i Quad has a 2" vent pipe. Anyone know where I can find 2" flex pipe at a 20' length?



At 20 ft long you might want to consider 3" My Harman instructions read that over 15 ft the diameter should be increased to 3" Making it fit shouldn`t be difficult if you can`t find a reducer. You could snip the end a fraction of an inch deep and spaced 1/2 inch apart and bend the tabs in to fit the stove collar snugly.
 Silicone the tab joints to make it air tight . Let cure and slide back onto stove. Presto! It`s done.


----------



## TMonter (Aug 5, 2008)

I highly recommend rigid pipe rather than flex, much less pressure loss and it has less problems with moisture gathering in the pipe.


----------



## Shooter (Aug 5, 2008)

I find the fresh air requirements for breathing to be met just by the normal everyday movement of people and pets going out the door on the daily basis.  The 2 adults and 2 teen plus one dog that needs to go out 4 times a day certainly brings in enough fresh air for us to stay alive


----------



## dsm1212 (Aug 5, 2008)

rcredsox said:
			
		

> In my masonry fireplace (located on an outside wall), I have a small door in the front of the firebrick floor that when open, provides outside air from a channel underneath the fireplace that is vented (with a screen) to the outside of my chimney.
> 
> I have a Mt Vernon AE insert pellet stove on order.  If the stove sits on the firebrick floor it will probably cover up this opening.   Can anyone think of a way I can reuse this outside air connection for my pellet stove?
> 
> Here is a picture of the small door location.



I think your photo is actually an ash dump. My fireplace has an ash dump on the floor in the back and an outside air intake on the left side. However, we added on to the house a couple years ago and blocked the outside air inlet for the side air intake. I'm going to run an OAK through the ash dump though and cobble up a sealed cover with a hole in it for the outside ash dump door. If your ash dump is in the front of your fireplace, I'm not sure how you could get a hose in it. If your hearth is big enough you could buy a freestanding unit instead of an insert and then it would be uncovered. Maybe if your unit has long adjustable legs and there is a zero clearance kit available and your fireplace opening is tall enough you could raise the unit a couple of inches and then work the outside air underneath and through the hole? It's probably easier just to run a longer hose out through the chimney.

-steve


----------



## mralias (Aug 5, 2008)

Found what I was looking for. This site has the Z flex 2" pipe kit that is made for the fresh air vent. Cost me $62 with shipping from TX for 25' kit. If anyone is looking for a fresh air kt for the CB1200i Quad and want to run it up the chimney this is the place to get it. Even the place I bought the Quad from said they could not find 2" flex for venting and Quadrafire did not sell it. 

Linky poo 

You have to call them by phone for the 2" as it is not on their website yet as it is pretty new by Z-Flex. Don't call Z-flex for this as you have to go through one of their dealers.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 5, 2008)

ssman said:
			
		

> What about all furnaces and water heaters? All of these require combustion and emit exhaust and they don't require OAKs. Where is all their makeup air coming from? So I guess if you own one of these units you will need to put an OAK on it too!



You should.  High-efficiency appliances require or at least offer the ability to use outdoor air.

Sealed combustion is the best way to go.



			
				Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> If you cut the hole for an OAK, the cold air is drawn directly into the stove, meaning that this cold air is constantly cooling off the stove, and you have to "burn more pellets" to heat the stove.



The inefficiency in a stove is not in the combustion, itself.  Combustion air that is 20 degrees colder does not mean a flame that is 20 degrees colder.  You could put a larger and larger heat exchanger on a given system, and cool the exhaust more (combustion efficiency is the difference between the flame temp and the exhaust temp).  However, if you did that, there would be problems of draft and corrosion and soot, because the exhaust was too cool.

The amount of energy the system will waste is fixed by that, regardless of the amount of energy that it consumes in combustion.  Colder air means it needs to consume more energy to pre-heat that air, but that extra energy is captured by the system in order to cool the flue gas just enough, but not too much.  The energy has to go somewhere - into your house.  Colder air (as long as it is not so cold that it interferes with proper combustion) will actually increase efficiency.  It sounds counter-intuitive, but the thermodynamics do work out.

If your house is tight enough that it needs additional fresh air, replace a bathroom vent with a HRV, and install a ventilation controller to turn it on as needed.

Joe


----------



## itworks (Aug 5, 2008)

Webmaster said:
			
		

> I think some of them are giving you wood stove wisdom...for a pellet stove. They are not the same......pellet stove used forced draft (electric combustion blower), and an incredible amount of air is used....as compared to a wood stove.
> 
> The stove will need air. If you keep the house fairly loose (in and outside a lot, let the dog out, crack windows), then you will have enough air - but, if the house is kept fairly tight, the stove can depressurize the house, causing potential problems.




What problems would be caused by a stove causing a house to depressuriz, and what are the symptoms of a depressurized house?


----------



## gw2kpro (Aug 5, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> ssman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks guys.  Appreciate the replies and info.  I wasn't trying to make the case that colder air = colder flame, I was pointing out that cold air (say 10 degrees) constantly drawn into the back of the stove, through the fan, and forced into the burn chamber does "cool" the stove itself more than drawing in 60 degree air from the house, whether or not that's a significant loss, I still can't determine.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 5, 2008)

Liter of Cola said:
			
		

> Thanks guys.  Appreciate the replies and info.  I wasn't trying to make the case that colder air = colder flame, I was pointing out that cold air (say 10 degrees) constantly drawn into the back of the stove, through the fan, and forced into the burn chamber does "cool" the stove itself more than drawing in 60 degree air from the house, whether or not that's a significant loss, I still can't determine.



It's not a net loss.  It's a net gain.  I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it isn't.  The colder air allows for more efficient combustion, essentially.

"Cooling the stove" is not relevant, because it increases the efficiency of the stove to match.



			
				Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> if a furnace is tuned to a certain air intake volume so to be efficient, wouldnt cooling the combustion air bring more air [due to increased density of cold air] & airwash the heat up the chimney?



If you don't bother to keep your appliance adjusted correctly, you will get increased mass air flow.  That will increase the excess air, and also make the flame burn hotter, which will counteract that effect (presuming we're talking real-world temperature changes, not some hypothetical -100 degree winter).  Keeping your air/fuel ratio adjusted correctly will work better, but is not strictly necessary.

Joe


----------



## slls (Aug 5, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> ssman said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Would cold dry air have more oxygen per cubic foot than warm humid air. If so how would that effect combustion.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 5, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> my nonOAK pellet burner intakes a more constant temp air intake from indoor temps than from outdoor temp variations. so does my oil furnace in cellar.



The air temp fluctuation is not a big deal.



			
				Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> point is= look at my ventilation link below. indoor air pollution?



Ventilation is important, but most houses breath enough due to wind and such.  If they won't breathe due to wind, then they are very tight, and using an exhaust fan (of any sort) to try and force them to breathe just creates negative pressure in the house.  Improper draft due to such things is one of the leading causes of combustion problems with appliances.

If you want ventilation, install a HRV with a ventilation control.  It will bring in fresh air, without wasting the heat (they are pretty efficient at transferring the heat to the incoming air) or creating negative pressure.

Joe


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 5, 2008)

slls said:
			
		

> Would cold dry air have more oxygen per cubic foot than warm humid air. If so how would that effect combustion.



Yes, but the difference is not huge.  Is a system is set properly, the slight excess will hardly be noticeable.  The effects of restricted combustion air will be far greater (and less predictable, since the effect of a clothes dryer or such is temporary, not a gradual, seasonal change).

Joe


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## Czech (Aug 5, 2008)

I have the answer! Use the pipe-in-a-pipe Direct Vent by Selkirk, below is a link to some info although I have no relation to the vendor (web search). Basically draws fresh air through the outer ring and exhausts through the inner pipe. One hole through the wall, incoming fresh air is preheated by the outgoing exhaust. My stove is located in my basement, I know that if I disconnect the OA and fire up the NG dryer, water heater, and furnace at the same time I can see a difference in the flame by opening and closing a window that I do not see with OA hooked up. That convinced me.


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## Czech (Aug 5, 2008)

Forgot the link, as usual I clicked too quick!  http://www.northweststoves.ca/chimneys-venting/selkirk-direct-temp.html


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## cac4 (Aug 5, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> cant use gas pipe on a pellet stove.



a little further down the page, it says "ul listed for pellet and corn stoves".


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## DiggerJim (Aug 5, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> GotzTheHotz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That was my first thought but if you click on the pellet link it takes you to the brochure where they say their VP version is approved by UL for corn & pellet burning appliances.


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## smoke show (Aug 5, 2008)

yep I have a vertical install with that selkirk pipe one hole gets both done.


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## Ithaca (Aug 5, 2008)

Um.. Hi guys.  Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but I didn't see it anywhere.  I installed an OAK into my new stove through the ash pit in my existing Hearth.  I haven't used it yet so don't have much to add here except:

http://chimneysweeponline.com/hooa.htm

This article is what sold me on the OAK.  3" flex btw.


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## FredJ (Aug 5, 2008)

mralias said:
			
		

> Found what I was looking for. This site has the Z flex 2" pipe kit that is made for the fresh air vent. Cost me $62 with shipping from TX for 25' kit. If anyone is looking for a fresh air kt for the CB1200i Quad and want to run it up the chimney this is the place to get it. Even the place I bought the Quad from said they could not find 2" flex for venting and Quadrafire did not sell it.
> 
> Linky poo
> 
> You have to call them by phone for the 2" as it is not on their website yet as it is pretty new by Z-Flex. Don't call Z-flex for this as you have to go through one of their dealers.



At 20' long I would also suggest, as Giovanni did, that you up the diameter to 3" or even 4" and use a reducer at the stove. 20' especially if it has bend will have a lot more resistance to pull through that an much shorter run. I wouldnt want you to finally decide on an OAK then have it not supply enough flow. Too large wont hurt anything, too small will starve the flame.


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## Czech (Aug 6, 2008)

Also makes the vent look more wood stove if you use the Selkirk if that matters to you. It is spendy, I installed 4 years ago, no problems since. I think they have upped the stainless thickness too, corn tends to make acids that eat pipes, not sure what you're burning. Pook, as mentioned, look more, or go to Selkirk's page, although I find their homepage tough to navigate. Lastly, the side of my house looks like it has a jet engine sticking out, I like that and get questions too which I like (what is your dryer on steroids?). It has worked well for me, I burn a couple of tons of corn a year (lol, not this year!) and have not had a problem. Really, really lastly, make darn sure if you use this stuff to get your measurements down and consider the fact that you are not getting this stuff apart without a sawzall, been there.


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## mralias (Aug 6, 2008)

FredJ said:
			
		

> mralias said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks Guys for your suggestions. It really means a lot to me to get all kinds of input and this is a great place to do it. I have already purchased the 2" and is coming from NH according to UPS. Ordered in TX and shipped from NH. Got to love it. I have already burned the stove toward the end of last season and did not have any burn problems without the OAK. I'm sure I was sucking air in from all the leaky parts of the house. I am hoping by going direct outside to the stove that I will cut down on the air sucking from the rest of the house. (air sucking---love them technical terms) The debate seems to be 2" to 3" size pipe based on a 20' vertical run without any drastic bends. The 3" pipe is not made to fit my stove according to Quadrafire as it has a 2" fitting. I have not been able to locate a 3" to 2" reducer as of yet and gave up on that. That leaves me only a 2" pipe. 

Bottom line is, if this does not work I can always get the 3" pipe and cut slices and collapse the end so it clamps on the 2" stove fitting. Only $40 bucks which I would have given to the blood sucking oil company's if I did not put this stove in so no big loss. Thanks again.


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## johnnywarm (Aug 6, 2008)

please let us know how it works out. good luck.


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## MCPO (Aug 6, 2008)

The 2" will probably work fine if there are no elbows but if there is a slight restriction it could very well put a bit of a strain on the combustion motor resulting in a shortened life. I would have to believe these motors are unique to the application and are not overly spec`d .The lighter it is built the quieter it would be, undoubtedly manufactured so as to draw as little electricity as possible , thereby not being overly powerful and able to withstand  much resistance if any. If you were to put a meter across it you would see the needle rise more than the rated draw listed (with added resistance of course ) . 
 I can hear the air being sucked into my OAK when I`m standing near it. (4" diameter at 30 ft) run so I consider the OAK to be of more importance than others might.


----------



## erhalt1 (Aug 6, 2008)

i have a question, my stove out side air has to run through the basement, to go outside, would i be just as well to let the hose hang in the basement?


----------



## erhalt1 (Aug 6, 2008)

pellett stove


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## rona (Aug 6, 2008)

Your exhaust is going outside so unless you have a open window in the basement you should pull the air from outside. You can easily put a elbow pointing down so snow or rain can't get in . Don't forget a piece of screen so bugs or mice can't get in the pipe. I ran a elbow outside with a two foot extension to get above snow and a couple of elbows so snow and rain couldn't get in.


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## johnnywarm (Aug 6, 2008)

they make a vent that goes into the wall that opens and closes automatically.it has a screen built into it. i'll see if i can get its name.


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## rona (Aug 6, 2008)

they do make a vent that opens and closes automatically that fits in the wall but with the stove running full time which I assume it will be you will be letting cold air in your basement all the time unless you plumb a pipe into the vent that opens and closes and thereby capturing the cold air and not allowing it the run of the basement. cooling things off.


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## johnnywarm (Aug 6, 2008)

rona said:
			
		

> they do make a vent that opens and closes automatically that fits in the wall but with the stove running full time which I assume it will be you will be letting cold air in your basement all the time unless you plumb a pipe into the vent that opens and closes and thereby capturing the cold air and not allowing it the run of the basement. cooling things off.




It open & closes automatically with a" hepa type" filter.


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## slls (Aug 6, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> slls said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Explain why cold air intakes installed on auto engine increase HP.


----------



## bdcbean (Aug 6, 2008)

In an automobile combustion engine you are using compression to make the power. Compression = heat. If you can lower the temp before this process then you are going to get less heat at the end which means you can get more advanced ignition and more power.

Thats why they have intercoolers on turbo cars, the turbo is adding even more heat when pre compressing the air. In extreme cases you use ice boxes to get negative intake charge temps before it reaches the turbo.

So it's a little different to a pellet fire, but as said above. Cool air (as long as not too cold) will help with efficiency. 

Most of our fires are not supplied with cold air intakes, most people have just not had a need for them in New Zealand.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 6, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> but why is the air preheated in older carbureted engines from heat tube from block to air filter cannister?



Some engines had heaters to prevent the throttle plates from freezing, not to pre-heat the air.  Pre-heating the air is bad.



			
				Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> &WHY;DO ALL CARS  GET WORSE MILEAGE IN WINTER i think.



I've never had a car that got worse mileage in the winter.

Joe


----------



## FredJ (Aug 7, 2008)

> I've never had a car that got worse mileage in the winter.
> 
> Joe



I do, but its because 
1) I havent Properly inflated the tires ( I think they get softer with the denser cold air) and 
2) because I put on Snows with a much softer rubber and agressive tread  (2-3mpg Less than Summer tread)


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 7, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1997/March/01.html



The tire issue does not apply.

Neither does the "warm up" issue, because that is related to the engine management system's operation - it "wastes" fuel to get the engine warmed up quicker, to reduce wear (cold oil does not lubricate as well).

As far as "gasoline doesn't burn as well in cold temperatures," that's flat-out false.  Ask anyone who has designed a racecar; you do everything you can to get the air (and even the fuel) cooler, to improve the efficiency of the burn (efficient burn = more power from a given engine).

Properly inflate your tires and burn quality fuel, and there will be no mileage loss.  No gain, either, because the "warm up" issue still applies, and counteracts the efficiency gain from the colder air and fuel.

Joe


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## bdcbean (Aug 7, 2008)

Run nitrogen or helium in your tires  (thats why race cars do not use air)

As for the fuel temps, I recently installed a control system for my oversized fuel pump. Running at full speed when the engine does not need it meant that the pump + the hot engine bay heat the fuel and just return most of it to the tank. This greatly effects power. Hot fuel = less efficiency.

Race cars have systems where the fuel is ran through a heat exchanger on the low pressure side before returning to the tank for this reason.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 7, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> In winter, colder air means denser air -- more molecules per cubic foot. At any specific throttle setting or opening, the same number of cubic feet of air, but containing more air molecules, will enter the engine. The computer will provide more fuel to create the proper air/fuel ratio at that moment. This is a bit more subtle, since "more air/more fuel" produces more power, so you may be able to operate at a slightly lower throttle setting -- sort of rebalancing the equation.



_More_ than re-balancing the equation, actually.



			
				Glowball Worming Bust said:
			
		

> as to pellet stove,i'd think that the combustion air intake would be set to feed air for the highes burnrate so that full combustion is assured. burn pellets at a lower rate + add condensed cold air factor & the result is excessive airwash from heat inside stove. kindalike heating the outdoors, eh?



The air intake allows the stove to draw the air that it wants - it doesn't force some set amount of air into the stove.

Joe


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## slls (Aug 7, 2008)

Boy did I open a can of worms LOL.


----------



## rona (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah you did but you got opinions from people with wood stoves fireplaces and pellet stoves and car drivers.  Answers will vary but a pellet stove basically has one exhaust fan which blows exhaust out of the stove which creates a vacumm that draws fresh air into the flames. 
  I have never seen a overkill on a subject like this before. Seems we must have all kinds of experts dealing with hot air.


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## johnnywarm (Aug 7, 2008)

i have an old door in my cellar.it needs a new gasket on the bottom of the door. if i remove the insulation from the bottom of the door the pellet stove seems to run better.it seems to have a better flame.thats why i like the idea of the outside air coming right into the stove instead of the stove working to pull air from where ever it can get it.


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## johnnywarm (Aug 7, 2008)

here's the vent. i think its called ventilator??


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 7, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bustierre said:
			
		

> my eng. 25 has same power draw for exhaust from 3-9 settings [killawatt] so other pstoves have exhaust blowers that vary the power with every level of burnrate?



Some do, but you're still not going to get the heat being "washed" away, even at a continuous fan setting.

There is a reason that all high-efficiency systems include outside air.  It's not just there for fun.  Sealed combustion improves efficiency and safety.

Joe


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## slls (Aug 7, 2008)

My neighbor had a new oil fired boiler installed 2 years ago,  it required outside air.


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## johnnywarm (Aug 7, 2008)

BrownianHeatingTech said:
			
		

> Glowball Worming Bustierre said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think what joe is saying works.I will defiantly pay more attention this coming heating season on this.

Thanks Joe


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## johnnywarm (Aug 7, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bustierre said:
			
		

> johnnywarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Its better to blow cold air to the stove.why would it be so different to give the flame cold air?i understand hot air would be better but limited hot air might not be enough to get a good flame.


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Aug 7, 2008)

Glowball Worming Bustierre said:
			
		

> johnnywarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excess air from the room is the same as excess air from the outside.  The small temperature difference is not a big deal.  The fact that there is excess air is the big deal, but that exists regardless of whether you use indoor or outdoor air.

There is a reason that all high-efficiency systems include outside air. It's not just there for fun. Sealed combustion improves efficiency and safety.

Joe


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## AlaskaCub (Aug 8, 2008)

I just got done installing a P68 in my house and was told by several people that I dont need a fresh air supply from th eoutside and after my first burn I disagree. I got a lot of smoke build up during initial start up and once the door to outside was opened the smoke quickly went up up and away. It did the same thing on shutdown of the first fire. So now I need to look into a fresh air kit that will work, as it appears to be quite the challenge to find something that fits from all the reading I have done on here.


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## lcrumbau (Oct 2, 2008)

I just hooked up my new US Stoves King Ashley 5500XL and it wasn't putting out much heat so I called USStoves.  I told them I hadn't hooked up the outside fresh air intake yet and they told me NOT TO.  

This brings up some questions:
Via web research I found a site that had said, that though it doesn't seem like these pellet stoves are drawing in a lot of air to burn that a typical pellet stove, running on medium can exchange every once of air in a 1,500 sq ft home in 12 - 14 hours.  That's a lot of heat loss.  (if it's true).  

My next question: Doesn't it take a lot hotter fire to heat 10-20 degree air from outside then to heat 65-70 air from inside.  There to they stated that Colder air has more oxygen so the fire actually burns hotter with the outside air.   Makes sense - if it's true.

I read all those studies posted by someone above.  Unfortunately they just talked about fume spillage.  Does anyone have any links to actually studies that compare the rate a home heats when using outside air as opposed to inside air?

Thanks


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## Catfishjack (Oct 2, 2008)

I have a new St Croix Stove ..direct vent straight out with a stove sentry / Marine Battery for power blackouts...no outside air vent..
dealer said I didn't need one...


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## rona (Oct 2, 2008)

It seems this subject has been beat to death but in the simplest terms If your exhaust air goes outside the house then it is replaced either with outside air directly into the stove or by air leaking in around windows, doors or wherever they air can get in the house creating drafts.  It is a much easier install job to tell you you don't need outside air then next season come back and offer to put it in for you for a price of course.


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## pelletsrevil (Oct 3, 2008)

Hi everyone,new guy here! Iam in the same boat as the OP,I cannot get a single dealer to help me with an OAK. All of them in a 250 mile radius is telling me that an OAK is not needed. I bought my stove in 2005,that year we burned 4 tons by Christmas, running it up my chimney with the $1000.00 liner,had to take it out because of the pellet shortage. The next year we moved it to the first floor and burned every sigle bit of the 6 tons we bought for that year. Our home is a ranch,900 sq ft per floor,1800 total. I've talked to people who said it's impossible to burn that much,I've also talked to people who burned more than that.
Before I throw in the towel and go to coal should I try an OAK,would it make difference?Not only that but in my installation instructions it reads that the air does not have to come from outside,just from a different room that has not been heated by the stove. Here is my question since no one will sell me an OAK. Can I just get some pvc pipe and run it down through the floor and into the basement and draw air that way to the intake?  
Yes I get a black window in about 48 hours after cleaning and lots of black on the side of the house.I have tried  adjusting the intake damper to get a clean flame and IMO it is a bright strong flame with no visible smoke. I started the first year with Dry Creek pellets and after that Hamers Hot Ones with no better results.

It is a St. Croix Afton Bay 30,000 btu stove. Pre install inspection the installer told me it would heat our ENTIRE home with 4 tons per year.LIAR.LIAR PANTS ON FIRE! Told us to put it in the basement and buy the liner. I will never trust anyone who works on commision again.

Between the prices of pellets doubling just 3 months after we bought our stove,the  amount of pellets it really takes to get through a winter we have found that we wound up with the same bill we had when we burned propane and that is what we did last year.$1779 for the stove and $1000.00 for liner and install. It would have been easier to flush that money into the toilet.

Could all this frustration be avoided with an OAK?


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## DiggerJim (Oct 3, 2008)

pelletsrevil said:
			
		

> Could all this frustration be avoided with an OAK?


No. I'd say you're undersized with a 30K BTU stove for you installation (especially when it was in the basement). You mentioned throwing in the pellet towel and going to coal. I'd do that if I were you living in PA (heart of coal country  ). Six tons of pellets is a lot. But I bet your stove was running high all the time. You can probably sell the pellet stove for near what you paid for it due to the current market and reuse the liner with the coal stove.


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## AlaskaCub (Oct 3, 2008)

A follow up from my post above. I installed the fresh air intake and it has made a world of difference, my stove runs soo much better and I dont have any draft issues. Someone commented to me earlier that my house must be sealed tight, and it is, it was built in 2006 and is a 5 star +, you should have seen the problems I had with running a wood stove in this house before switching to the Pellet. Can you .....I hate the smell of smoke!


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## pelletsrevil (Oct 3, 2008)

Digger,current market? There are pellet stoves for sale in the paper here with best offer writen next to the ad! The dealers here are no longer pushing pellet stoves,in fact they are telling people pellets are in short supply,expensive and no loger cost effecient to run and maintain. You want one $500.00 takes it,including the through the wall vent kit.I'll put it toward my coal stove.


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## DiggerJim (Oct 3, 2008)

pelletsrevil said:
			
		

> Digger,current market? There are pellet stoves for sale in the paper here with best offer writen next to the ad! The dealers here are no longer pushing pellet stoves,in fact they are telling people pellets are in short supply,expensive and no loger cost effecient to run and maintain. You want one $500.00 takes it,including the through the wall vent kit.I'll put it toward my coal stove.


Up here we're still seeing people chasing all over for one. If you'll crate for shipping via a freight line, you could definitely get a good price for it - try eBay or Craigslist northeast editions for $2K delivered. The frieght will be under $200 anywhere in the Northeast so you'd pay for that and the stove if you're willing to go to the effort to crate it and get it to the frieght company. Heck - offer it up here and see if anyone wants it. There's a post everyday from someone looking to buy and needing help deciding and being limited to their local dealer's non-stock.


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## woodsman23 (Oct 3, 2008)

pelletsrevil said:
			
		

> Hi everyone,new guy here! Iam in the same boat as the OP,I cannot get a single dealer to help me with an OAK. All of them in a 250 mile radius is telling me that an OAK is not needed. I bought my stove in 2005,that year we burned 4 tons by Christmas, running it up my chimney with the $1000.00 liner,had to take it out because of the pellet shortage. The next year we moved it to the first floor and burned every sigle bit of the 6 tons we bought for that year. Our home is a ranch,900 sq ft per floor,1800 total. I've talked to people who said it's impossible to burn that much,I've also talked to people who burned more than that.
> Before I throw in the towel and go to coal should I try an OAK,would it make difference?Not only that but in my installation instructions it reads that the air does not have to come from outside,just from a different room that has not been heated by the stove. Here is my question since no one will sell me an OAK. Can I just get some pvc pipe and run it down through the floor and into the basement and draw air that way to the intake?
> Yes I get a black window in about 48 hours after cleaning and lots of black on the side of the house.I have tried  adjusting the intake damper to get a clean flame and IMO it is a bright strong flame with no visible smoke. I started the first year with Dry Creek pellets and after that Hamers Hot Ones with no better results.
> 
> ...



I have an Afton bay and it has performed flawlessly and heated my home to a comfy 73 degrees all winter. Also it's 40,000 btu unit not 30 as you stated above. You must have a drafty home if it is not heating or there is a problem with the stove itself. I used just under 4 tons all winter in the snow south of buffalo and i can't say enough good things about the afton bay. What year stove is yours? Do you use a t-stat? I use dry creek, lignetics. Again i have no problems heating a 1400sqft home with no basement. I get some buildup on  the glass when on low and on a higher setting it get a mist of brown after 7 bags are burned.


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## pelletsrevil (Oct 4, 2008)

That is another thing that got me mad,I bought it in 2005,they told me I was getting a deal on last years model. I look on the back while I'm moving it to the first floor and it is engraved 2003!
I just checked it is a 30,000 btu St Criox Afton Bay with pedestal.Do you have an outside air kit on yours?


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## woodsman23 (Oct 4, 2008)

pelletsrevil said:
			
		

> That is another thing that got me mad,I bought it in 2005,they told me I was getting a deal on last years model. I look on the back while I'm moving it to the first floor and it is engraved 2003!
> I just checked it is a 30,000 btu St Criox Afton Bay with pedestal.Do you have an outside air kit on yours?



I do not have the OAK and i direct vent straight out the back 12" from the house wiyth a 45 at the end facing down. I do not have any issues with the stove it works almost to well. I saved over 1200 bucks last year alone not using propane. Maybe yours is a small btu output 30,000 is not enough to heat anything over 1000 sqft well insulated. I say sell it and buy a stove with more BTU's and you will be fine. St Croix makes a nice stove.


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## MCPO (Oct 4, 2008)

kinsman stoves said:
			
		

> I have yet to find a house in this are, N/E Ohio, where I have done an install that needs an outside air kit.  Your clothes dryer moves more air from your house to the outside of your house than a pellet stove.  Does your clothes dryer need an outside air kit?
> 
> Eric



But the addition of a pellet stove  really adds to the arguement in favor of the OAK . 
 Envision a bath fan, dryer, oil furnace and a pellet stove and maybe even the kitchen exhaust fan all running at the same time? This is probably not an uncommon situation.  In a house with borderline flue it could depressurize and pull in carbon Monoxide.


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## Stihl029 (Oct 5, 2008)

Wouldn't one have to agree that if a home was built in 07 that its going to be very airtight, and in this situation, one would need outside air? I have a Englander 25, and I did install the outside air, because the use of the word mandatory in the manual made me Leary of not using it.  I do have an airtight home I feel. 

  In the cold of last winter (8 degrees) I had ice on the outside air intake pipe near the wall, but the stove seemed to be working fine.  Nice HOT air flowing out of the stove.  I think one would loose a bit of the efficiency when using outside air, but its also logical to say the difference is minimal.  And couldn't it be said that by not using outside air in a home that's airtight, that the motors and fans have to work a bit harder to get the air moving because of vaccum? putting ones hand over the air intake pipe and you can notice that it does draw a good bit of air in a stove of this size.  The air has to come from somewhere.


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## insuranceman1 (Nov 5, 2008)

I choose not to install the OAK on my stove.  I have read and re-read the post and just can not seem to think that I need it.  I live in a 2800 sq ft home with a attached 2 car garage.  My  home is very open and I have over 7 doors and (2) of them are double doors.  I have attached a picture of where I installed my stove (red X), this room has a ceiling of about 18'.  I really just don't think that this stove could be drawing in any air.  There should be more than enough air for the stove to get in the home without drawing in any more.  Maybe I am wrong.  If I was putting this stove in a small home or a smaller room maybe.  Am I wrong or do you guys think that I am Ok...

Thanks!


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## BrownianHeatingTech (Nov 5, 2008)

insuranceman1 said:
			
		

> I choose not to install the OAK on my stove.  I have read and re-read the post and just can not seem to think that I need it.  I live in a 2800 sq ft home with a attached 2 car garage.  My  home is very open and I have over 7 doors and (2) of them are double doors.  I have attached a picture of where I installed my stove (red X), this room has a ceiling of about 18'.  I really just don't think that this stove could be drawing in any air.  There should be more than enough air for the stove to get in the home without drawing in any more.  Maybe I am wrong.  If I was putting this stove in a small home or a smaller room maybe.  Am I wrong or do you guys think that I am Ok...



The stove _must_ draw in air, since it is exhausting air.  The air it is using must be replaced from somewhere.  The only reason that the size of the house/room matters, is because the larger surface area of the structure means more cracks and crevices for it to pull air through.

Joe


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## imacman (Nov 5, 2008)

insuranceman1 said:
			
		

> I choose not to install the OAK on my stove.  I have read and re-read the post and just can not seem to think that I need it.  I live in a 2800 sq ft home with a attached 2 car garage.  My  home is very open and I have over 7 doors and (2) of them are double doors.  I have attached a picture of where I installed my stove (red X), this room has a ceiling of about 18'.  I really just don't think that this stove could be drawing in any air.  There should be more than enough air for the stove to get in the home without drawing in any more.  Maybe I am wrong.  If I was putting this stove in a small home or a smaller room maybe.  Am I wrong or do you guys think that I am Ok...
> 
> Thanks!



My question is: How old is your house?  If it's fairly new, it was probably built to be pretty airtight.  If so, an OAK would be a good thing to add.....the stove won't be able to make the inside of the house a negative pressure area.  The stove would run better, plus your not trying to pull air from other areas of the house (like the heating system in the basement which includes CO).

My 2 cents.

Oh, and BTW, I guess your not putting the Christmas tree in the same spot this year.... :lol:


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## insuranceman1 (Nov 5, 2008)

Wife is going to have to find a new spot for the tree!    :lol: 

My house was built in 1994.  I understand that the air the stove is using has to be replaced.  Every pellet stove that I have seen around me doesn't have the OAK.  My stove puts off great heat.  The OAK is a cheap enough and easy install if I decided to do it...just am not sure if it would be worth it.  Also wouldn't this increase the chance of rust on the inside stove, from moisture?  Thanks for all of the explanations.


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## JBlank912 (Nov 5, 2008)

Its so odd that the issue of the OAK seems to keep going around and around. Also that many installers say you don't need it. W ehad our stove installed this year and I insisted on an OAK. The installer didn't have it so he put the stove in without it. I ran for a few weeks with out it. The stove ran fine but my wife said she had a slight odor from it even after a couple of weeks. Now that the OAK is in, there is no odor (and my wife has a very sensitive snse of smell) and I feel the stove is running better - hotter and more consistent. It could all be a coincidence of the time frame and the fact that he tweaked the vent install at the same time but I am pleased that I had it installed. My house is 40 years old but with 2 additions and extra insulation as well as all new windows its reasonably tight. :coolsmile:


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## Xena (Nov 5, 2008)

I went the first three years without outside air.
My home was built in the 50's. I had replacement
windows installed a couple years ago and the doors
weatherstripped.

The problem with drawing air from inside the house
is, you are creating a draft at floor level from the stove
taking in the air.   If you don't believe it,
lay on the floor in front of the stove and you will feel it.
This year I added an outside air kit and no more draft.
Before, the room would sometimes be very warm but my feet
would be cold if I sat in there for awhile.
I'm now a big advocate of the outside air and will install
it from the get go if I put another stove in.


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## cac4 (Nov 5, 2008)

insuranceman1 said:
			
		

> Also wouldn't this increase the chance of rust on the inside stove, from moisture?  Thanks for all of the explanations.



what moisture?

the cold outside air is dryer than the air inside your house.


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## insuranceman1 (Nov 5, 2008)

Yes when it is not raining or snowing.  I may be wrong I do not know, this is why I am asking...wouldn't the OAK pull damp air in as well?


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## cac4 (Nov 5, 2008)

insuranceman1 said:
			
		

> Yes when it is not raining or snowing.  I may be wrong I do not know, this is why I am asking...wouldn't the OAK pull damp air in as well?



yeah, so?

its still probably dryer than the air in your house.  Humidity is relative to the temperature of the air.  It might be raining outside at 35 degrees/100% humidity.  Bring a bucket of that air into your 70 degree house, and it immediately becomes 50% humidity...not that damp.  same amount of moisture (water).  

suck that same air into a fire that is how hot?  
its gonna be boney-dry in there.


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