# Pellet Boilers.... Where are you????



## Mack The Knife

Hello All!! 
I am new to the site and am loving all the information. I registered late last night when I saw a request for locating Harman dealers and was able to pass along a source tip for the Harman PB105 to another member. 
My personal desire is to find a pellet boiler that I can install in the basement alongside the existing oil furnace to cover our 3000 sq ft heating and maybe domestic hot water needs. We may just install an electric hot water heater for the domestic side, so that the boiler will not need to be run/cycled throughout the warmer months. The boiler will just be used for the central heating through HWBB. I think that I'd prefer to burn wood pellets and perhaps leap beyond corn burning (sounds like folks in the midwest are moving to wood pellets for a reason.... called $$$$ in ethanol sales) to the other available grain pellets. We are trying to stay away from wood burning, but are there any recommendations to convince me otherwise?
What manufacturers are building units that I can install indoors? I've found the Harman PB-105, the Traeger 150, LDJ 100,00, SAR Furnace, Orlan Pellet Boiler, Tarm's, Next Gen Bio-Max, CPC's BioMax, and the Froeling P2 unit (mid-summer arrival). Are there other options to me?? What about pellet gasification units?
Unfortunately outdoor boilers furnaces will cause me to perform site work... there's a heck of a drop off out the back of the house!! Although, I am impressed with the little information I read on the Genesis II (need to get more info) and may have to cave in.
Why is the Harman PB-105 not UL rated yet?
Thanks for your assistance and guidance! I am posting this request on other sites as well.
Mack The Knife


----------



## webbie

How about the Tarm Pellet boiler - from right there in NH - top of the line unit from maker with 100 years of experience......

UL does not, to my knowledge, rate anything....they do "list" certain products, but not pellet boilers. These are too niche of a product for a standard to be fully developed here. That's my guess!

Sounds like you have plenty to choose from - my typical advice is to buy from a manufacturer who has been in business for a while, so as to assure longevity, parts and service.


----------



## Eric Johnson

A belated welcome to the Boiler Room, Mack.

I think pellets are a great way to go if you don't mind seeing their price closely track that of heating oil. I'm hopeful that someday we'll have a pellet distribution infrastructure in this country that will make what you're trying to do commonplace, and really give fossil fuels some competition in the marketplace.


----------



## webbie

Living in Southern NH......at this point at least - you can get bulk delivery from NEWP. That helps a lot.

Also, with Pelletsales.com operating out of Manchester, it should be pretty easy to get competitive prices there also.

Of course, one or two suppliers does not make a perfect market, but it certainly helps!


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

On pellet boilers, look for a Warnock Hersey listing, which is similar to UL (just a different company, doing the same thing).

Joe


----------



## Oregon8888

Mack the Knife, you posted several boiler models.  I'm also interested in converting to a pellet boiler (from a OWB Taylor, aka, smoke maker).  However I would like one that has an auto start feature, unlike the Tarm which requires a human to light the pellets, then it  "idles" after temps are reached.  What units have you found that fit this category?


----------



## Mack The Knife

My apologies for the slow response. I have been busy. The Harman boiler looks like a nice unit and sounds like it will do a decent job. It is also reasonably priced and has minimum maintenance. I actually saw the price go up $600.00 over a weekend. I'm shocked at the price increases that I received from Tarms (I'm talking thousands... and I live in NH). Other than initial cost, a big concern for me is the variability or limits of what a boiler can or cannot burn. That really is the major concern of any unit I am researching. The pellet manufacturers are increasing their prices each year too. I went ahead and prebought 8 tons of wood pellets at $230.00 for this coming winter. Obviously I've committed to finding a new system. I think the option to burn corn in New England will get too expensive (nationwide farmers will get a better dollar return for selling the corn for ethanol fuel), so I need to prepare for other pellet fuels. I just don't want to deal with wood and the mess and labor associated with it. In the big picture it seems that the European boilers are now beginning to be available. But, the prices are over $9000.00. $*^&%$ Crooks Maineenergysystems.com just added a Janfire unit that it is promoting in New England... Are you sitting down?? for just $12,500.00..... There'a a Genesis II unit being built in Wisconsin that caught my eye, but I believe that it is an outdoor unit. My preference is for an indoor unit. I did add a 55 gallon electric hot water heater last weekend, so there's no more oil being burned here. So I'm still searching.
I could ramble some more... If you would like more info just ask.
Best of Luck!
Mac


----------



## Willman

> Maineenergysystems.com just added a Janfire unit that it is promoting in New England… Are you sitting down?? for just $12,500.00..


Actual price of boiler starts @ $8100.00. $12,500 is ballpark for bulk storage ,auger to boiler, boiler, super store for DHW and pro installation. Price will vary with differing installs.Pro install only.If our dollar was in shorter supply on the world market it would be worth more against foreign currencies and the Euro boilers would be cost competitive.But they might not even come over then. Just priced a Harman PB 150 out today, $6300.00 plus $210 for DHW coil. Self installable if able. Can be wall vented due to power vent. Demand is thru the roof. Has anyone priced out a gas or oil Euro boiler lately ? Their technology is years ahead of us due to their longer higher energy prices. The Euros have a whole different approach to engineering than us yanks.

Will


----------



## Mack The Knife

My wife thought I was crazy just taking the time to look at the system. I'd probably buy the Janfire system if it was $8100.00 inclusive. Having another $4500.00 tacked on is steep. I'll contact the company with hopes of working out a deal. 
Maybe I can buy some of their stocks if available to the public.


----------



## Willman

> My wife thought I was crazy


My wife knows I am crazy and ready to have me committed for observation due to my infatuation with not wanting to pay $4 + who knows what for oil this coming winter. I don't think I'm getting any + WAF at all. I would die as a salesman on straight commission. Give Maine Energy a call. Be prepared for a green salesman. 
Will


----------



## harry

hey mac the knife

I'm in the same situation like you, looking for the right deal getting a wood pellet boiler????? you mentioned the Froeling P2 boiler and it's arrival in summer, which company is distributing it here in the U.S.? do you have a name, phone number or email?


----------



## Willman

> do you have a name, phone number or email?


Heres an email reply I got from Froling. Maybe you will get more info than I did.

Dear Sir,



thank you for your recent inquiry on Froling wood boilers.

Froling is the biggest manufacturer of biomass boilers in Europe and we have been expanding quickly over the last decades.



Now, we are about to prepare our products for the North American market.

Froling boilers will be available in the United States and Canada within the next months, beginning second half of the year 2008.

We will keep your contact and inform you as soon as we have any news.



Kind Regards



Werner Emhofer



Mag. Werner Emhofer

Bereichsleiter Export / sales area manager

------------------------

Fröling Heizkessel- und Behälterbau Ges.m.b.H.
Industriestrasse 12
A-4710 Grieskirchen

Tel. +43 7248/606-2400         Email: w.emhofer@froeling.com 

Fax. +43 7248/606-600          Internet: http://www.froeling.com


----------



## Mack The Knife

Hi Willman,
What are you using for a pellet boiler or do you have one? Do you have a recommendation? Why? 
I'm more than surprised that there is only a handful of people chiming in what is being found available in pellet boilers. The corn burning side isn't offering many alternatives either. I think that I've narrowed my selection to one of a handful and hope to make a decision in the next week or two. I don't know if European units will be much better than some that are already available.... especially at thousand$$$$ more.


----------



## solarguy

Mack,

You're approaching a pellet boiler purchase with that good ol American mindset, looking at the bottom line instead of looking at what you're getting for your money. To clasiify European manufacturers as crooks because their product is thousands more than the stuff you've been looking at is short sighted on your part. Their products are thousands more for a reason.  European manufacturers have been way ahead of the curve for decades & their boilers have a proven track record. 

The saying you get what you pay for has never been truer than when it comes to renewable energy products.....

Bob


----------



## Willman

> Hi Willman,
> What are you using for a pellet boiler or do you have one?



Hi Mack,I do not currently have a pellet boiler. I have looked at the Harman so far. Will take a look at the Pinnacle (Traeger) and the Bosch.
Will now check out the Genesis you mention in another post. My interest in the Froling is piqued by it being able to convert to round wood for fuel.I can possibly hedge my energy bet as well as insure my aging in place with it. Might not be able to work up wood in 10/15 years or so. Who knows though.
As far a cost of Euro technology goes. IMHO they are many years ahead of US in solid or pellet fuel burning. This is due to many reasons. This being said the cost would be less if our $ was not way down against the Euro, pound, etc. This is another reason why they cost more. Who is to blame for this is a topic for the Ash can. Check out the value of the buck against the Euro. If it was closely matched the price wouldn't be an issue. OTOH due to the extremely favorable (to them) exchange rate more of the Euro burning technology is starting to come over.It wasn't worth it to some of them in the past. Just think how much these units  will cost next year.
A comparison would be a Mercedes / BMW versus an American car. They will get one from point a to b, but the Euro cars in some aspects excel over the US cars.
 Will


----------



## Mack The Knife

I'm really enjoying this purchase process and the research associated with it except that I think more than anything that I'm frustrated that there are so few pellet boilers on the market and those companies that are producing pellet boilers have so little information posted on their web site. When I request literature I get a one page/card with the same or so little additional information on it. When I asked one company rep for a price, I got a sheepish and underbreath "about $9000.00" response and then from another I was quoted a price that was a couple thousand higher than their currently posted sale price. These forums have been a great additional source of information. 
As far as costs to purchase and install I really do recognize and appreciate the longevity that the Europeans have in this market and commend them for it. And I do agree that the European units are probably worth a little more. They must be working hard to get their boilers marketed in the USA. Maybe I felt these two American companies were just trying to put the screws to the consumer which no one appreciates having happen. 
There are new pellet factories being built in New England, but the price is still increasing instead of the competition driving it down. Perhaps there will be a shift. I heard the pellets are being shipped to Europe. Heck, I already prepurchased 8 tons of pellets before the "increase".


----------



## MrEd

I just can't see how pellet boilers in the long run will save a lot of money (assumoing that is your goal). I can't produce wood pellets any easier than producing my own oil - I can produce my own firewood, so in the long run that was a much better choice for me.

There is a huge amount of oil distributors, but that really hasn't kept the price down; more pellet distributors won't either. I agree with the other poster who said pellet prices will roughly track the price of oil.


----------



## harry

hey guys
good to know that a bunch of other guys is struggeling to look into alternative fuel heating as well, Mack how the heck can you enjoy this mass? I feel more frustrated than enjoying this endeavour, for the same reason you mentoined: just a few companies offering that technology (pellet/corn boiler) here in the U.S. and when you compare their technology to the European products than they are 10-15 years behind. the Europeans either not marketing in the U.S. or are very expensive for various reasons. after extensive research just like you guys it looks like the best units are TARM (very expensive as well), Pinnacle/Traeger (did anybody get a quote?), the Bosch/Janfire (from maineenergysystems, but they just starting their program and who knows when they starting to cover NH and MA???). has anybody checked out the Orlan pellet boiler? any quotes?h
the European products looking great and their cost are probably worth the money, any concerns that their technology is so advanced (electronics) that the installation and service might be a probelm here in the U.S.? has anybody checked out the VITOLEG 300 from Viessman (established in the U.S. for oil and gas boilers) and it's availability her in the U.S.?
hearing about the rising costs for wood pellets, I start wondering if switching from oil to wood pellet really will be as cost saving as it is promised now??? we might find as back in the same situation like now that the they continue to rise the costs for the wood pellets because of demand and porpularity and we again spending thausends of dollars for keeping our house warm??


----------



## Rick Stanley

Less work, no need for storage, metered burn. I have a woodlot too, but if I didn't, I'd buy a pellet boiler in a second. I think it's the way wood burning is headed.


----------



## Mack The Knife

Here are the units that I'm researching (trying to) and their listed/quoted to me prices;

1. Harman  PB105 - $6300.00 - Indoor installation
2. Pinnacle/Traeger PB150 - $6000.00 - $7000.00 - Indoor installation (local distributor in place and contributor to Forum)
3. Orlan Pellet Boiler - $7580.00 - Indoor installation
4. Pro Manufacturing LLC Genesis II Multifuel Burner - $9000.00 - I think it is an Outdoor installation
5. Janfire/Bosch (Maine Energy Systems) - $8400.00 (100,000 BTU) - $9500.00 (150,000 BTU) + installation to $12,500.00. - Indoor installation
6. Tarm MH 2.5 - $11,000.00+ - Indoor installation
7. BioMax 40 - $6390.00 - Indoor installation - Unit is not "just" a pellet boiler (I love the versatility of fuels and gasification concept), but it has no automatic feed system (bummer).

There are numerous qualities that I am considering in my purchase. Those would be BTU ratings, Multiple fuel uses, Efficiency Rating, electrical requirements, hopper sizes, burner pot (stainless steel or boiler plate steel), off-season shutdown, venting requirements, customer support and of course $$$$ etc, etc..... 
Our home is about 200 years old and 3000+/- sg ft. My preference is for an indoor installation alongside the oil burner. The Harman is a direct vent unit which to me is a huge advantage because I want to keep my oil burner as a backup/standby and can't have both vented to the same chimney. I could add a power exhaust ($400.00 or so) to the oil burner and then pipe a pellet boiler to the chimney, but that obviously adds cost. 
All the above units have pluses and minuses for my needs. If you are looking at any of these I have listed please let us all know why or why not. Together we can make smarter decisions if we are educated. Sales people don't scare me either, so please tell us why your unit stands above the others.
I'm learning more information everyday and hope to make a sound decision in the end.


----------



## wil lanfear

After burning wood for over 40 plus years I purchased a Harman pb105 pellet boiler to heat my home and to supply hot water. I installed it in March, it's been running around 7 weeks now, I really like it but....... it does have an issue with the combustion blower never shutting off. The combustion blower has to shut off, running all the time sends the heat from the boiler water that was just heated out the stack. I have been working with the dealer and the Harman Co. to resolve this. The controller and the thermistor probe have been changed, thinking that maybe one of these was the problem. IMO, the thermistor probe is the problem. I say this because the rating of this is 90 degrees, meaning that the combustion blower will not shut down until stack temp reaches 90 degrees. This will never happen with the low temp setting of the boiler set at 150 degrees, the boiler fires up before the stack temp reaches 90 degrees. 

The cost of pellets has increased, easy to calculate why, the cost of fuel for trucking pellets ( or anything) has increased so this must be passed on to the consumer.


----------



## heaterman

Pellet and boiler thoughts..........aimed at no one in particular and everyone in general.

I think that you are going to see more of the large timber producing companies get into pellet production. Georgia Pacific has a large plant here that used to make OSB but is currently being converted to pellet manufacturing. (No demand for OSB around here as there is virtually nothing happening in the construction market) The initial capacity of the plant is supposedly 80 tons /day with the capability to hit somewhere over 500 if demand warrants. If that happens in other locations, I think we'll see the price stabilize around $200/ton at retail. That assumption is based on what forestry operators around here tell me they need to break even per ton of chips produced, plus GP's manufacturing costs, transportation and retail mark up. Just a WAG but I would say it's probably close. The major variable in that picture is the fuel cost related to harvesting and processing the wood into pellets.

Comparing the pellet boilers available here now to those made by Froeling, Viessmann and other European manufacturers is hardly valid. Saying it's like Chevy and Mercedes is off base too, more like a Model T to a present day auto. The features and benefits are on a completely different scale with the better brands of European made pellet equipment. Some of you have questioned how they get a Lambda sensor to work in a wood fired flue gas environment and it's pretty simple really. The sensor can work because it's there in the first place, controlling combustion to the point where it is not in danger of perishing itself and keeping the boiler at peak performance 24/7/365. Without the sensor, corresponding controls and mechanisms controlling combustion, you simply have a box burning wood. BTW, why would you use the boiler for only part of the year? Maximize your investment and use it to heat your domestic hot water year round. The more automated pellet boilers will do that easily. 

 Does it cost more?  You Betcha!! I'm guessing you'll see a boiler like the Froeling or Viessmann hit the market at $10-12K. They are so automated that if you give them a continuously available fuel supply, they require no more interaction than a gas or oil boiler. Annual service plus cleaning the ashes out maybe 2-3 times per year. The question is not how much does it cost but rather what do you want your boiler to do? If you can live with having to fill it, clean it, adjust the combustion when you get a new load of pellets, then by all means buy any brand of "manually operated" boiler currently out there and save yourself $3-5K. If burning fewer tons of pellets, less interaction with the boiler, (think WAF here)  and long trouble free operation mean something to you then maybe you better wait and see what comes across the pond. If your fuel bill is in the$600-$1000 per month category through mid winter, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that even at a $12K initial investment, the return is pretty darn quick. What else can you buy right now that will pay for itself within 4-5 years. What kind of return did you get on your last vehicle? Or that TV you bought? Don't be penny wise and pound foolish. It's better to spend a little more and have something that you are satisfied with than spend less up front and wind up chucking it within 5 years because you're tired of the hassle.

Do pellets make sense in the first place? Let's compare costs and see. .....  Pellets at $200/T burned in a Euro type boiler that modulates will provide 1MM btu's output for $13.77. The same pellets in a non modulating type boiler will run you $17.56.  Burning a full cord of wood through a good wood boiler will provide that same 1MM btu's for $7.86  Just for kicks......... a current model top drawer US made ground source heat pump will do that same 1MMbtu for about the same cost as cord wood.  Number 2 fuel oil in an 80% appliance will tag you for a little over $30/MMbtu.

Using the heat loss calc you have all done for your houses  do the math to find out the difference in cost and payback. 

Gotta go put the splitter on the Kubota.


----------



## webbie

Mac, I don't think the Biomax is a Pellet Boiler!

Explain.......

If it is a wood boiler with some kind of a grate that accepts pellets....well, I would say to decide to go one way or the other (Pellet or wood gasifier)

There would be a vast advantage to having a local (I assume Brownie) helping you out with size, installation and advice. Huge! In fact, one of the biggest downfalls of the current central heat (solid fuel) situation is lack of such. Whether Brownie or some other local expert, I'd put a lot of weight behind that.


----------



## sinnian

*first post*

Thanks Mack for starting this thread!  I, too, am in the market for a pellet boiler.  I would probably go with the Harman PB105, but have read too many posts about issues (though most minor) with those.  THEN again, even though they have lousy customer service, there IS service.  There is a distributer/installer about 30 minutes from me in NH.  That is my fear about the European models, no support service ~ at all.  To me the Tarn just doesn't make sense without the auto-ignition, though I am a noob, so maybe I am missing something.  The Pinnacle/Traeger PB150 is enticing, I just have not seen anybody who has one comment on it.  I would love your "local distributor in place and contributor to Forum" to comment on on the Traeger, and what one can expect from the unit.  There is a distributer/installer in Old Orchard, or if I am close enough I would certainly support a contributer from here.

I ONLY WISH I knew someone who knows this industry ~ since I do not, I will rely on all of you ~~ Thanks, Jeff


----------



## Mack The Knife

Hi Jeff,
I had to start getting my information somewhere. I sat up one night until 2:00am going through every string that mentioned pellet boilers. 
Someone said it best in an earlier post and I'm paraphrasing.... Basically that all the units that I am reviewing have pros and cons depending on what you and I are after to fulfill the heating need. So, start a list of what you need in a heating system. Maybe a wood burner is a better fit for you. I believe it's less expensive to have logs or cord wood as a fuel in comparison to pellets or corn. 
You are right about the Traeger distributor in OOB (I used to live in southern Maine). There is also a guy in "taxfree" Northwood, NH that contributes to this forum. I believe his name is Browning. Personally, I like his philosophy stated on his web site. 
As other manufacturers want to get their units onto the U.S. market they will need distributors throughout this great land. When will they arrive on these shores, I don't know. I can only imagine the influx that is about to occur before October 1st when the sun gets lower in the sky. If you can do your homework now, you should be ahead of many others who haven't. I'm still trying to get information on the Genesis II pellet boiler manufactured by Pro Manufacturing LLC in Wisconsin. Another source of information is the Iburncorn.com forums. Obviously there are many midwest owners of those corn burning units. There are also people in New England too.
The wood burner guys on this site are a wealth of information too. Everyone seems to want to help the next guy along. What a great country!


----------



## sinnian

I AGREE, I checked out our "taxfree" contributor from Northwood, NH and his philosophy in what every business owner's should be.  After I do some more homework I shall call him to see if Limerick is an area he would want to head to.  It is about an hour or slightly less away. 

I don't want to go with a wood burner due to many of the common reasons (mess, bugs, etc), as well as venting and my wife using/filling it when I am away.

I have a traditional cape, that is well insulated (had the works done to it in 2006), and would really prefer just putting a pellet stove in the basement.  However, logic and everything that I am reading makes me think that the upstairs would be verrrrrrry cold, which would not please the wife, nor cats - lol.

Keep me/us informed on your decision making process, and I will do the same.  I will try to get to the Harman dealer in NH this week and pick their brains, though I have a feeling they know a lot less about the boiler then the stoves ~ we'll see.


----------



## PelletOwner

If you haven't already, check out the Maine Energy Systems site and look at their offerings.  They're offering a pellet delivery service, installation, and heating system.  I have a system with similar parts - the only difference is all my parts are 50Hz/euro electricity, so I had to buy an inverter.  The inverter has been my biggest problem part so far, and the inverter I found now actually works but emits a high pitched whine.

The system comes with a four-and-a-half-ton hopper that automatically feeds pellets into the burner's hopper, where they are then fed into the burner.  The system requires maintenance twice a heating season, mainly ash removal which can also be used as both an ice melter and a fertilizer.  It has a high-temperature water heating system that keeps 35 gallons of water at 180 degrees and then mixes it with cold water for my tap hot water.  

I can take 24 hour showers.  It's pretty awesome.


----------



## thomcoastal

I am in the last stages of choosing a pellet boiler/boiler stove.  I have gotten a yes for importation and operation in the US from two of the three European companies for boiler stoves, a yes from the MESys people and a yes from the Harman distributor.  I now have to weigh the pros and cons of each system.

Looking at the specs on the European models, it may be worth my while to choose one of them due to the overall reduction in cost to heat my home long term.  many of the companies have been in existance from the original oil shortage in 1973.  I will look over everything and make a decision soon...Keep you posted.

I want to thank everyone who has positive input to this site.  I have learned as much about where to turn away from as I have learned about companies to lean toward.


----------



## kohout77

Hi, folk's I sell harman pellet boilers I just got them and folk's followed them in.As for the price 6305 is the new harman price and 208.75 for the coil.They raised price on all product. I also asked about froeling and say it's not avaible yet.Rika has one being tested in alaska the aqua evo it's a freestanding as well as a boiler. Tarm was alot of money  and to make that work right you need a 800 gal storage tank.wood gas is alot of work compared to pellet you can get harman's 1700 lb extra hopper and run along time.


----------



## thomcoastal

The Rika Aqua Evo is one of the boiler stove I am looking at adding to my home.  it and several other of similar build are amazing for specs and the reviews of the hardware appear to show great reliability.


----------



## kohout77

Rika was using austroflamm as their name but are just using rika great stoves very quite most parts are german


----------



## fr8tdog

Thom,
I too live near Bangor and sounds like I'm in about the same position as you.  I have been trying to get an answer from Froeling, but the standard "sometime the 2nd half of the year" is all I get.  I looked at Tarm, nice unit but very expensive by the time you put all the plumbing together.  Mine is going into the basement, the Rika looks awful nice to be stuck down there, and what kind of storage or extra plumbing do you need to add to the existing hwbb system?  Also, the only dealer I saw was in Portland Ore.  That leaves the Harman, I think I would prefer one of the European brands, but expense and uncertainty (froeling) of availability seems to narrow the choices.  I think I will try to wait out Froeling, but not sure how long I want to wait, seems like the waiting lists for installation are growing. Please keep us on this forum informed as to what you find out.  Also, do you have any leads on pellets around Bangor?  I live a few miles from the Corinth plant, but have not asked them if they will sell to an individual, I heard that some places will sell if the order is large enough, maybe they will and we could look into splitting the order. Thanks for putting the results of your search on this forum, the more information the better.

Greg


----------



## PelletOwner

fr8tdog, I would still encourage you to check out MEsys' offerings.  They're including a 4 ton hopper so they don't have to deliver as often (less delivery charges), and they're going to be available within two months.  They're also going to run a pellet delivery service so you don't have to hunt for pellets.  The parts they use are all european with a great track record in sweden/austria/norway/denmark.

I have a similar 4.5 ton hopper, and it's saved me hundreds in delivery fees.

If you're looking to add a boiler to a HWBB system, it's really easy.  I have a combination of under-the-floor and baseboard water heat, and I could use my old manifold from my oil burner/boiler.  I might have gotten lucky with my manifold, though.


----------



## Mack The Knife

FYI - 
You are right on all accounts about cost, labor, convenience and efficiency. Although efficiency might be closer than you think. The issue with stoves and inserts is the heat doesn't move to other areas of the house very well. There are almost always cold/cool spots. A boiler on a HWBB or a furnace on a forced hot air system is like the oil furnace, but you are burning pellets or other biomass as a fuel.
The 8 tons that I bought will be delivered bagged and loaded on a pallet. The bulk delivery price wasn't an option for me and the cost per ton and delivered was about $227.00 per ton. Which is equal to the BTU output/co$t of oil (only) two years ago. Oil was at $2.17.00 a gallon.


----------



## fr8tdog

Just got off the phone from someone at Maine Energy Systems.  Not really a wealth of information to say the least. Does anyone have a source of information on the Bosch boiler itself?


----------



## heaterman

fr8tdog said:
			
		

> Just got off the phone from someone at Maine Energy Systems.  Not really a wealth of information to say the least. Does anyone have a source of information on the Bosch boiler itself?



I spoke with the marketing VP at Buderus/Bosch regarding the unit MES is using. Seems there is an exclusive marketing agreement between MES and Bosch. In short, the only place you can buy that boiler is MES.

PS: I should add that the agreement is for a limited time. Who knows what will happen then but we won't know for a couple years in this case.


----------



## webbie

That's strange...you would think there would be a benefit to consumers and everyone else by having multiple sources of these products. What happens when someone in the Midwest wants one of these boilers? Who services and installs it?

Maybe they are figure it is best to keep a "beta test" limited to one area so the thing does not get out of hand. It is a lot easier to monitor, repair, install and test when all the units are in a relatively small area.


----------



## sinnian

To go with this whole discussion, I have a question.

With the Harman PB105 and coil for hot water, what else would one need to / should purchase from Harmon to run the unit parallel to one's existing boiler?

AND

With the Pinnicle/Traeger PB150 what else would one need to / should purchase from Pinnicle/Traeger to run the unit parallel to one's existing boiler?

I know there are pipes, etc. that the plumber will supply (and charge) for the installation, but what are the other hidden costs associated with these?

By the way I got a price quote of $5800 on the Harmon, with another $208 for the coil (both subject to Maine tax), and another quote from NH for $6306 for the unit alone.  What are other people seeing for prices?

I have also seen the Traeger for $6950.  Which one would be better?

Does anyone know what the "average" cost is to install these units?  I know there are too many variables to mention, but a ballpark figure?

Thanks ~ Jeff


----------



## thomcoastal

Sinnian
The pricing I got last season for the Harman was within a dollar of the one you got, the 6306 is the price I got last week for the Harman from the same dealer.  The Traeger price I got is the last as yours as well.

Depending on wheter your system uses a recirculating loop or individual zones without the loop will determine what you need to buy - with the loop not much more than piping and a few valves but without it you may be forced to purchase circulators, etc to ensure the heat supply is evened out to your needs.

I've gotten three estimates which range from $900-4000 for the installation of the Harman in my home.


----------



## Mack The Knife

My research has shown me that The Harman PB105 and the Traeger PB150 are both good units and both bring a little something to the table in features. Both units have reasonable efficiency ratings.
If you haven't seen the Harman it is a direct vent which means you don't need to vent it to a chimney (nice feature). There's only about a 12" pipe that sticks out the rear wall, so you don't need to use the same chimney as your oil boiler. The Harman also only needs a 6 amp breaker/fuse. The 205 lb hopper is a nice load too.
The Traeger has a higher output of BTU's for more square footage, but do you need that much coverage. I suppose that a power exhaust (maybe $400.00???) could be added to the Traeger for the same purpose as the direct vent, but you need to ask the reps. 
As pointed out in an earlier response, the cost of the boiler is not the only factor to consider.


----------



## kohout77

that 6300 price is without shipping that is about 500 the thing weigh's 900 lbs.You should get a heat storage tank for the domestic hot water and maybe a circulator and a mixing valve


----------



## sinnian

If I am running it in parallel do I need a tank, circulator and mixing valve?

Which also begs the question of how to keep my oil burner from running to keep the temperature of the water in its tank up?


----------



## kohout77

the domestic hot is separate from the baseboard


----------



## Sting

If I understand correctly ---- and I am asking 

The Harmon is a water tube boiler and the Traeger is a fire tube boiler.

Thats significant to me!

Enough so to strike one from my short list!


----------



## Willman

> That’s strange...you would think there would be a benefit to consumers and everyone else by having multiple sources of these products



I spoke to the salesman at MES. Who I will add is new and not up to speed on various aspects of pellet boilers. He told me that a large local oil company is going to do the installs.They are also going to vet independent contractors for installations as well. MES will provide training to any solid fuel licensed tech ( Maine) that they accept into their program. Lewiston Maine is the launch area at this time. Otten has a deal with a local bank to offer financing at a favorable rate. My guess is he could be the importer of the boilers and sell to other shops when the time is right. I was extended an invitation to check out his boiler at his house to see it in operation.

It seems he is going to take it slow and keep it local to work out any bugs in the system (beta). A rare approach in this day and age. From what I understand the boiler has been around a while in Europe so it should be good to go. The electronics were probably changed to work on USA current. His concern lies in the installation and service provider's as well as delivery more so than the actual unit itself. I will be keeping a close watch on this endeavor.

Will


----------



## Willman

> Enough so to strike one from my short list!


Please give us a quick tutorial on the differences of fire tube and water tube boilers.
Will


----------



## harry

hey everyone
any thoughts on the Orlan pellet boiler? Mack, what is your feeling about this unit, looks pretty good to me?

harry


----------



## Mack The Knife

How are ya Harry..... As sung by_____________. Shame on me for forgetting his name.
I wish I could have gotten more info on the Orlan. They say it has 92% efficiency. The price that I got from the West Virginia distributor is $7580.00. I might add that I have read many good things about the owner of New Horizon and he stayed on the phone with me answering many questions late on a Friday evening. Give New Horizon a call and ask some questions. He also carries the BioMax 40 and if I were to go to a unit that I had to feed (nonautomatic) I would choose the BioMax 40 myself.


----------



## harry

Mack
thanks for your info's, I will call him up and talk to him, but why you are not considering a Orlan boiler?? 
harry


----------



## harry

hey kohout 77
would be a harman good to heat a 4500-5000 sq feet house? beeing a resident of eastern mass could you supply me with a harman unit?

Thom and kohout 77, who is distributing the Rika Aqua Evo in the U.S. (new england)?

harry


----------



## muncybob

Mack...I believe that would be Harry Chapin?


----------



## Mack The Knife

That's right Harry Chapin.... I'm so embarrassed.
I got so little literature on the Orlan that I'm not sure what the specs even are. Again, my unhappiness with the many units is that they have a very colorful card but not much for capabilities, specifications, etc, etc. I don't think that the Orlan ($7580.00 quoted) has an automatic feeder system although you might be able to adapt an external silo, but I don't know. None of the literature mentioned those options, so I just assumed that it doesn't have that option. But, like a pellet stove or non automatic feed system you fill the hopper (35 gallon... strange unit of measurement instead of a weight in pounds) and then it burns off. Whether is lasts one day or three, I don't know. 
It is one of the higher rated units in efficiency at 92% that I found. That is a "huge" plus! Which is what raises my interest. But the lack of an automatic feeder system pretty much takes it off of my short list. A unit without an automatic feeder system has to be tended to refill the hopper, otherwise the fire goes out and pipes freeze and water damages the house etc... etc... It's the same with oil or any other fuel.
The Europeans build their homes (in the last few decades) around the central heater system and how pellets in this case are going to be stored. Some home and especially businesses just have the pellets poured or pumped into a concrete divided area alongside where the boiler will be located. Otherwise an outdoor silo container is used. That way the delivery truck has reasonable access.
The Harman is rated 0 - 105,000 BTU's up to about 2500 sq ft. I actually have closer to 3000 sq ft. From what I've been told the boilers perform better and want to keep running. It's not efficient for them to turn off and back on. They are built to maximize the heat generated by the burning of the pellets. Most oil burning boilers are rated at 80% - 86% efficiency.


----------



## kohout77

The harman is 113,900  btu it has tubes but that is part of a water jacket so it will last longer and not burn out.Harman claims it will do more than 2500sq but I would take it at 2500. You probaly have a local dealer near you and that would be better for you if you need service plus we all have an area and as far as the evo its not yet availble in the U.S. The EPA is testing it in alaska I met the rep at dist. He says what is sold here is old tech and its hard to bring new product into the country The integra 2 is ass kicking and you don't hear it running.Homeland security made them take out the dial up control feature saying it could be used as a bomb at $4000 thats some trigger. but it comes in 10 colors.The evo might be availble this summer he said.


----------



## sinnian

Willman said:
			
		

> Enough so to strike one from my short list!
> 
> 
> 
> Please give us a quick tutorial on the differences of fire tube and water tube boilers.
> Will
Click to expand...


YES, please do!

----

After going and talking with a Harmon dealer in NH, I am really leaning towards it.  The price quote I got was $6040 (no tax).  Why is it the only one available in NE with an automatic ignition?  To me the ones that do not, can not be that efficient if they are consuming during idle.

I have also decided not to get the coil, and get a storage tank instead.  Anyone have any suggestions on a tank?


----------



## EWD1

Mack,when and where did you get the price on the biomax?


----------



## webbie

Willman said:
			
		

> Please give us a quick tutorial on the differences of fire tube and water tube boilers.
> Will



I don't think it will be of too much use to most shoppers - without knowing ALL the other variables which affect boiler and heater performance. But a quick introduction.....

There are two major factors (related) that will affect the efficiency and capability of a heating system - including a boiler. One is the actual combustion of the fuel......you must burn it efficiently in the first place! With a pellet central heating system, this is not a big problem since the fuel can be metered and burned hot in a relatively small fire pot. 

The second part, which relates to the boiler construction, has to do with the available heat exchanger to properly soak up the heat from the burning pellets and transfer it to the water - and then to the house. This is where a Pellet boiler may differ greatly from a wood or coal hand-fed unit. 

There needs to be a certain amount of "square feet of heating surface" which I think is defined as the surface of steel with water behind it that is exposed to the heat of the fire. In a case where you have a very controlled burn such as Pellets, this might be a series of tubes or baffles located above the pellet fire through which the gases pass. The engineering of the boiler should carefully match the heat generated by the fire to the heat which is able to be soaked up by the water. Excess heat exchange is not desirable - you only need to soak up the right about of heat to create the efficiency you are seeking - no more. Also, having a water jacket around all sides of a pellet boiler and the bottom (these are know as "wet leg" or wet bottom" boilers ) is not as important as with wood or coal boilers, since the heat from the flame can be contained and directed into a small area.

As to fire tube and water tube, my guess is that:

Firetube - a boiler with round tubes through which the exhaust gases pass - these are either horizontal or vertical and surrounded by water.

Watertube - a boiler with horizontal tubes above the fire which have water circulating through them - the exhaust gases pass around the tubes.

So one has the water on the outside of the tube and the other on the inside. I assume that in most cases a firetube boiler is the preferred heat exchanger type.

My guess, anyway.

As a summary, while I might hold water volume and sq ft of heating surface important with a hand-fired wood or coal boiler, it would seem that a Pellet boiler could be engineered to use only an efficient heat exchanger on top of the fire and not a lot of water storage in the boiler itself.


----------



## Mack The Knife

I got the price of the BioMax 40 and Orlan Pellet Boiler on a quote sheet from New Horizon earlier this month.... literally just a few of weeks ago.


----------



## Willman

Thanks Craig
Will


----------



## alaz

I am new to these forums.  But I read postings last night and feel like I was reading my life.  I have found the Traeger (small hopper, maintenance), the Harmon (low BTU output-85%of 113900 with perfect pellets), the amaizeing heat (less maintenance good price, local but concerns about ability to burn pellets effectively: really designed for corn), and the Bosch system out of Maine (not local, $$$$, but seemingly flawless in theory).  I was introduced to the Orlan ( but how big is hopper, and what is BTU output).  Currently heat with oil, system 2000, hydro air (hw coil in duct). HELP!  Any word on overseas boilers being any closer.  Oh yeah, the Tarm ($$$$, storage tank?, not local)


As for the fire tube vs water boilers tube: isn't Harman fire tube 3 heat exchangers and is that good or bad?


----------



## webbie

Being in PA, you should consider the Harman since it is made there and parts and service may be available in the future. Considering models that are not even in the country yet could be a chancy decision. 

I don't see why the Tarm would need storage...... and they have been imported since the mid-70's so parts and service are likely to be available. The Tarm is probably engineered better than the Harman, but at the same time priced higher. So while Harman may not be the state of the art, the price reflects that and most Harmans are solid units.

Most homes could easily get by on the output of the Harman.....my house, for example (2700 sq ft) requires less than 30,000 BTU per hour on a cold winter day.


----------



## Mack The Knife

I just passed on an opportunity for a TARM 2.5 @ ($7500.00) because the automatic feeder was an additional $2000.00, plus another few thousand for installation. I struggled with the decision for over a week, but decided if I was going to spend that kind of money I would go by way of the Maine Energy Systems Bosch/Janfire which for the price I'm told comes with a 4.5? ton hopper and I was further told could be "direct vented" without having to vent into the existing chimney. I think that is probably the way I am leaning at this time. My understanding in speaking with "Dutch" of Maine Energy Systems is the $12,500.00 is what would be the "most" anyone might plan to spend. That is for buying the larger of the two units they offer with bin, burner, auger, and installation. They are also offering multiple sized silos for bulk delivery.
I'm waiting to hear back and be "sold" on the Traeger which comes in at a lower purchase price, but also lower efficiency. 
Please give me your inputs gents.


----------



## alaz

I also called on the MES Bosch system:
I do not believe the 4.5 ton hopper is included in that price, though I hope I am wrong. I am going to call tomorrow.
Thanks for the note regarding the Harmon: I like the option for a 1700 pound hopper. I am heating 3700 sq. r-38 in my ceilings and r-19 in my walls. I want to be able to heat house with no doubt with whatever I choose. How confident are you that the Harman will do it?

The a-maizing heat is even more local (installer in town). What issues are there? Are the updates to the burn pot enough to make pellets work effectively, any concerns with the auger mechanism (ie. melting, backed up smoke)

As for the Traeger, I spoke to these guys out in Ohio who have made some improvements to the burn pot so it requires less maintenance, and it is a proven product, but again not local and, my biggest issue: 160 pound hopper. 
I go through approx. 1100 gallons of oil I estimate that will equate to 8.5-9 ton of pellets. Any thoughts.

alaz


----------



## webbie

Hard to have a lot of input on these things that have not been on the US market for very long - if at all.

I do agree that anyone who is dead serious about Pellet Central heating should have the option of either a VERY large hopper or feeding from an external bin and hopper. Loading a bunch of bags into the thing once a day would seem fine only for those with lower heat loads.

Question for yo, Alaz - did you compare the boiler cost and fuel cost for an automatic coal stoker boiler? If not, why not? At first glance it would seem the fuel cost is about 40% lower than pellets and you can get a system with decades of proven performance. On the other hand, it is not a renewable fuel - but it seems as if the Pellet boiler "boom" is coming from a price angle anyway since there was almost no demand up until the last year.

FYI, a good friend of mine has had an EFM coal stoker boiler in his house for 25 years....with almost no servicing needed.


----------



## alaz

Craig
I was at a coal guy yesterday looking at keystoker and EFM.  Three problems which convinced me pellets.
Yes coal is more cost effective, however, I wanted to accomplish 2 things, save money and get "greener".  I am not a hippie but coal releases more green house gas than oil (at least that was my understanding).  Also, too much ash removal.  Finally, the coal itself is a dirtier than I hoped.

So you feel pretty good that the Harman will meet my heat needs?
Are there any pellet boilers that I am missing?

I appreciate the help...
I am pulling my hair out and I am bald to begin with.  Anyone know of issues with the a-maize-ing heat?

Thanks again.
Alaz


----------



## Mack The Knife

You will find much more discussion on the amazing heat unit on the Iburncorn.com forum.


----------



## webbie

You have to work backwards from oil to calculate your heating needs....

example: if you burn 200 gallons in the coldest month of the year.

That means about 7 gallons a day, or 1 million BTU.

Meaning a pellet boiler at the average of 40,000 BTU for 24 hours would do the job......

That is a rough calculation, of course, but never the less a good rule of thumb. You certainly need to have some reserve for those few super-cold days, but since the Harman is capable of almost double that, it would probably be fine in the example given.

As to other brands, I am somewhat old-fashioned when it comes to heating equipment - in that I want to know about the company that stands behind a piece of equipment for decades in the past and the future. This comes from my time in the business when I saw many "boat anchors" caused by lack of special parts or service knowledge. It is one thing to "take a chance" on a wood stove which is easily repairable, but quite another to do so on a very expensive central system. I like the fact that Harman has been around 25+ years and is now owned by a large company with a lot of resources.


----------



## sinnian

I DID it!  I went a head and bought the Harmon, and for several reasons.

1.  less expensive; matched with an indirect hot water storage and installation, I'll be around $10k; which at the current projection give me a payoff in 3.5 years; however I discussed with my wife that if things reverse and oil prices come down and/or pellet prices go up, we'll still be 'green'; not that we're hippies either
2.  is the only boiler that I found available that had an auto ignition; so when at idle, there is no fuel loss
3.  local servicers
4.  at 85% efficiency rating it matches my oil boil, BUT the heat is not going through my flue like it is with my oil boiler
5.  can be direct vented; the MES can not (sorry Craig), as well as may others
6.  comes with an adequate hopper, and there is the available 1700 pound hopper
7.  feel that if we waited for the European models, it would already be too late
8.  could second guess myself to the funny farm

Now I have the daunting task of getting the pellets.  We're not in a good geographic location as far as supply goes.  Best value is $255 for 3 tons plus $100 delivery.  Unfortunately at this time they have a 3 ton limit, otherwise I would get more which would lower the total cost per ton due to the delivery charge.

Any of you Mainers know a reasonable supplier close to Limerick, let me know.

I'll still be aroundMES Chimney RequirementsMES


----------



## webbie

Sounds like a good purchase.....good boiler.

It does seem like the price of pellets is going up quickly, as you will be paying about 290 delivered. That is about the highest I have heard since before last winter. Maybe you want to get requests in at Pelletsales.com and some of the other regional places....even if you have to wait. Not getting cold yet.


----------



## sinnian

Webmaster said:
			
		

> Sounds like a good purchase.....good boiler.
> 
> It does seem like the price of pellets is going up quickly, as you will be paying about 290 delivered. That is about the highest I have heard since before last winter. Maybe you want to get requests in at Pelletsales.com and some of the other regional places....even if you have to wait. Not getting cold yet.



/ Thank you

I think I will get the 3 tons just to have them.  Pelletsales.com was a lot more expensive, due to delivery.  Additionally, they are no longer accepting orders.

You would think that here in Maine that I would have a good supply at a reasonable price.  However, I think it all comes down to population density.  We have few people here, thus less people who have pellet equipment = less pellet sales, etc. etc.


----------



## Tinman

sinnian said:
			
		

> Webmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a good purchase.....good boiler.
> 
> It does seem like the price of pellets is going up quickly, as you will be paying about 290 delivered. That is about the highest I have heard since before last winter. Maybe you want to get requests in at Pelletsales.com and some of the other regional places....even if you have to wait. Not getting cold yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> / Thank you
> 
> I think I will get the 3 tons just to have them.  Pelletsales.com was a lot more expensive, due to delivery.  Additionally, they are no longer accepting orders.
> 
> You would think that here in Maine that I would have a good supply at a reasonable price.  However, I think it all comes down to population density.  We have few people here, thus less people who have pellet equipment = less pellet sales, etc. etc.
Click to expand...

sinnian,
You'll love the PB. Did your Harman Dealer tell you about the new pellet boiler they have coming out with late this summer? Though it is only 60,000 BTU's and would have to be on a zoned system with indirect hot water tank. anyway enjoy it I use one to heat my garage.
And for anyone that still wants to place a order through pelletsales.com you can still place a order through them by going through www.pellets2u.com !!


----------



## alaz

Hey Sinnian congrats in making a decision and going with it! That is more than I have been able to do.
I have been sitting around contemplating my inability to move ahead with the pb105 and I realize my exact concern.  This is based on my absolute lack of knowledge of boilers in general.  If anyone can please help I would appreciate it!
Here is my question:  I have 2 zone hydro-air.  Each coil is rated for 160-180 degree water and will output approx 60k BTU at a flow rate of approx. 6-7 gallons per minute.  I have seperate circ pumps (taco 007 and 0011).  I plan on hooking the harman into the heat and letting my oil (system 2000) boiler handle my dhw.  The zones can both call simultaneoulsy, but this does not happen too often (on the coldest days more likely).  The temp. drop across the coil is approx. 23 degrees.  I want to set the harman at approx. 180 degrees, my return temp will be around 155.  Can the harman put back out 180 degrees to my coil; essentially can it handle that temp. differential?  I have a pretty well insulated house, (3600 sq. ft.).  I thought I would run the harman on manuel, I question auto ignition in the heating season.  With 2 zones I probably would have a call every 20 minutes, I thought it would be more efficient with a fire going, rather than cold starts.  If the Harman won't do it would the traeger or pellets in general.  Any help would be appreciated, even a direction.  I do not know how to approach this.

Thanks!


----------



## sinnian

alaz said:
			
		

> Hey Sinnian congrats in making a decision and going with it! That is more than I have been able to do.
> I have been sitting around contemplating my inability to move ahead with the pb105 and I realize my exact concern.  This is based on my absolute lack of knowledge of boilers in general.  If anyone can please help I would appreciate it!
> Here is my question:  I have 2 zone hydro-air.  Each coil is rated for 160-180 degree water and will output approx 60k BTU at a flow rate of approx. 6-7 gallons per minute.  I have seperate circ pumps (taco 007 and 0011).  I plan on hooking the harman into the heat and letting my oil (system 2000) boiler handle my dhw.  The zones can both call simultaneoulsy, but this does not happen too often (on the coldest days more likely).  The temp. drop across the coil is approx. 23 degrees.  I want to set the harman at approx. 180 degrees, my return temp will be around 155.  Can the harman put back out 180 degrees to my coil; essentially can it handle that temp. differential?  I have a pretty well insulated house, (3600 sq. ft.).  I thought I would run the harman on manuel, I question auto ignition in the heating season.  With 2 zones I probably would have a call every 20 minutes, I thought it would be more efficient with a fire going, rather than cold starts.  If the Harman won't do it would the traeger or pellets in general.  Any help would be appreciated, even a direction.  I do not know how to approach this.
> 
> Thanks!



Still learning as I go along....................

Why do you still want to use your oil boiler for DHW?  You would be better off getting an indirect hot water tank and zone to that from the pellet boiler.


----------



## fr8tdog

I just talked to my local Harman dealer looking for the pb105 boiler and they said the earliest they could get one was December or January!!  Has anyone else heard of this long of a delay or is it just here around northern Maine?


----------



## alaz

Sinnian,
I wanted to hook my oil into my dhw b/c I want the pellets to focus on the heat side.  I have a system 2000 boiler that is pretty good at heating water but priortizes and I thought seperating the water from the heat would help.  I plan on heating 3600 sq. with harman boiler and I did not want to run into issues when there is a call for heat.  As for ordering the PB 105 my local guy tells me 30 day lead time, but it will get worse!


----------



## critterfitter

fire starter:

 I run two zones of baseboard and indirect on the Harman here in western ma. in 2200 sq. foot house. I burnt about 4-5 tons. I think may be little less next year as I did remodel work this winter windows out and few walls uninsulated . I have the pb-105 boiler dealer was good but support from Harman was less than satisfactory as far as I was concerned. I'm plumbing and heating contractor and if my supplier can't answer question then manf. tech support usually is more than happy to answer questions.I needed the dealer  that I bought it from call Harman and say I was there installer before they would answer me any question .AS the dealer couldn't answer the install questions I had.They just deal with the flue piping not the plumbing of unit. The unit is well constructed .But you must keep up with cleaning of unit. Depending on control on your oil boiler you could set the temp down on your oil boiler so that it only comes on as backup.Harman has some piping scenarios in there book.


----------



## critterfitter

I bought unit at stove keepers in amherst n.h. it was $5700 plus about 4-5 hundred for fluepiping. 603-672-1280. As far as I know they have two in stock. Mark was very helpful on info and such.


----------



## nmerrill

Just a note of caution to folks out there looking for to purchase the Harman PB105, or others even.  Like many, I shopped around for a good price, and availability.  I ended up purchasing from a dealer in NH (no Tax) and they had one in stock.  That 3 year warranty is great, but I have already been told by the local Harman Dealer that they will not service my unit since I did not buy it from him.
Frankly, all I want is my parts since I know more about the unit then the service folks at the local shop, but it's still a issue.


----------



## AndrewChurchill

I put a down payment on the floor model at my local dealer in early May and when I picked it up last week the dealer told me he could have sold it at least ten times.  

He also said he has ordered 4 more for other people but Harman is telling him that he won't get them until December.


----------



## heaterman

nmerrill said:
			
		

> Just a note of caution to folks out there looking for to purchase the Harman PB105, or others even.  Like many, I shopped around for a good price, and availability.  I ended up purchasing from a dealer in NH (no Tax) and they had one in stock.  That 3 year warranty is great, but I have already been told by the local Harman Dealer that they will not service my unit since I did not buy it from him.
> Frankly, all I want is my parts since I know more about the unit then the service folks at the local shop, but it's still a issue.



Of greater concern than the local yokel not servicing it would be the fact that many manufacturers will deny any warranty claims if the unit is not installed by an authorized dealer or professional installer. Lot's of companies in the gas/oil fired end of things are doing this due to internet sales resulting in less than spectacular installations by unknowing and untrained persons. Read through the fine print in you warranty coverage statement carefully. You may be surprised at what you find.


----------



## sdube60

fr8tdog said:
			
		

> I just talked to my local Harman dealer looking for the pb105 boiler and they said the earliest they could get one was December or January!!  Has anyone else heard of this long of a delay or is it just here around northern Maine?


Hi, I am new to this forum and we have a Harman Pellet boiler on order and were also told that delivery is estimated at February 2009.  The company was sold and production was halted due to problems with the computer automated production line[as told to me by the sales reps.]  We have called several dealers in central Ma. and northern Ct. and all are saying this will not be available as well as most of the Harman  pellet stoves until Feb 2009. Tarm is also experiencing prolonged delays in equipment delivery as well.  We are considering purchasing a small amount of pellets with the hope that the boiler will be available for winter use.  Pellets are now ranging in price from $260. per ton to $275.  
Sharon


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

FYI, the Pinnacle/Traeger boilers are backordered until about November, last time I checked.  They've done their best, and actually tripled production, but the demand has outstripped even that.

Joe


----------



## Mack The Knife

Hello All...
The New England summer (of constant rain this year) is quickly passing and decisions need to be made. Where are the pellet boilers we heard about back in the Spring? Harman units (lowest price) are getting terrible reviews and are way back ordered. Traeger units are back ordered as well. Where are the European units? Where are other American made units? I rolled the dice and placed a deposit on the Maine Energy Systems unit. These guys have seemingly gone into this venture prepared and with the right attitude and convictions. Are there other manufacturer's that are going to compete? I have 1/4 tank of oil that I anticipate burning off before the end of October. My pellets have already been ordered and are awaiting delivery. All indications are that this seems to be an exploding market and none of the world's manufacturers are prepared. Perhaps U.S. manufacturers should build and market their units much like electronic and toy manufacturers do every year in preparation for Christmas delivery. Maybe Chevrolet, Ford, and Chrysler should retool. There's money to be made and they wouldn't have to use the UAW. Ok... I'm getting synical. 
Enjoy the rest of the summer everyone!


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

There are actually a _few_ pellet boilers available now.

I'm carrying both Pinnacle/Traeger and Tarm now, which has opened up some more availability.  Both nice units, with one being better for some applications, and the other being better for other applications.

Joe


----------



## dnwhe6@aol.com

Just joined today, check out the WoodPecker, heats hotwater and radiators.www.GerKros.ie they are availible in the US from First Pellet Boiler.


----------



## sinnian

Mack The Knife said:
			
		

> Hello All...
> The New England summer (of constant rain this year) is quickly passing and decisions need to be made. Where are the pellet boilers we heard about back in the Spring? Harman units (lowest price) are getting terrible reviews and are way back ordered. Traeger units are back ordered as well. Where are the European units? Where are other American made units? I rolled the dice and placed a deposit on the Maine Energy Systems unit. These guys have seemingly gone into this venture prepared and with the right attitude and convictions. Are there other manufacturer's that are going to compete? I have 1/4 tank of oil that I anticipate burning off before the end of October. My pellets have already been ordered and are awaiting delivery. All indications are that this seems to be an exploding market and none of the world's manufacturers are prepared. Perhaps U.S. manufacturers should build and market their units much like electronic and toy manufacturers do every year in preparation for Christmas delivery. Maybe Chevrolet, Ford, and Chrysler should retool. There's money to be made and they wouldn't have to use the UAW. Ok... I'm getting synical.
> Enjoy the rest of the summer everyone!



Nice to see you again Mack.  I would be interested in knowing if you got your final quote for product(s) AND installation from MES.  From everyone I have talked to their final price has been between 15k and 18k.  On a positive note though, rumor has it their shipment of the first 100 arrived today.

I actually just had my Pinnacle/Traeger delivered this afternoon and will be fully functional next week  ;-)


----------



## Sting

sinnian said:
			
		

> [
> 
> I actually just had my Pinnacle/Traeger delivered this afternoon and will be fully functional next week  ;-)



Congrats on the new addition to the family


----------



## MaineEnergySystems

sinnian said:
			
		

> Nice to see you again Mack.  I would be interested in knowing if you got your final quote for product(s) AND installation from MES.  From everyone I have talked to their final price has been between 15k and 18k.  On a positive note though, rumor has it their shipment of the first 100 arrived today.
> 
> I actually just had my Pinnacle/Traeger delivered this afternoon and will be fully functional next week  ;-)



Our boilers are being offloaded now.  They need to undergo some basic tests before we can distribute them.

Our storage solutions have been in flux for a little while, but we anticipate receiving enough storage containers within the next few weeks to cover all of our current customer reservations with extra left over for future demand, and the option of buying more (more than enough for our current demand) storage containers every few weeks afterward.  

Unfortunately, quite a few people are having to put in a new chimney, liner, remove the old oil boiler and tanks (labor $ and disposal $), or rework a significant portion of their zones + piping.  This is dramatically increasing the quotes folks have been seeing due to labor costs and materials costs.  We also did not anticipate our bins taking nearly as long to assemble as most of our contractors are saying they take, so we admit there is a bit of a discrepancy between our anticipated labor costs and our actual labor costs.  A recent installation was quoted (the highest quote i've seen) at $19k, but they required removal of their old boiler, a dramatic reworking of their zone piping and pumps, and hazardous waste disposal for two 300+ gallon oil tanks and the boiler. Most of our installations do not require this sort of labor, materials, and disposal costs, so we do anticipate that our average quote will be significantly less than that.


We apologize for any stress this has caused any of our customers, and we are taking every step we can to provide the public with an accurate predicted price.  Our prices may change as we proceed forward with our storage options, given the changing costs of steel, diesel fuel, and the relationship between the US dollar and other currencies.


----------



## Mack The Knife

Wow.... $15K - $18K is scary! Scary enough to chase someone away....really quick. The Traeger unit was on my short list too. I really enjoyed speaking with Joe Brownian at length. I was hoping that he might pick up the MES line. It's even nice to see MES making posts on this forum. At least MES is not hiding like some other distributor that I read about in Maine. They will probably find that guy in the Kennebec. The Reservation Agreement that you sign with MES also allows you to change your mind "at any time" without any penalty. The $500.00 deposit will be immediatelty refunded.
In an earlier post I mentioned that I had turned down the opportunity to have a new Tarm MH installed for about $12K. I prayed a lot before I declined that option. I haven't gotten my MES price quotes yet, but am anxiously waiting with optimism. I'm really high on their waiting list, so I won't have to wait too long once the units pass their initial checks. I've kept abreast of the MES training, boiler delivery, bin and silo sizing, and other miscellaneous updates too, including their sales going to PA and Alaska. You've got to feel some sympathy for folks that are needing excessive repairs to their homes including those chimney issues. It can drive the price up quick. I too wish the MES unit could be direct vented and although the MES web says that their unit can be power vented, it is not recommended. Fortunately, MES has already made arrangements with lending institutions to help ease the burden on the great folks of Maine. Heck our home was built in the early 1800's so I may need some help too. I think most lending institutions in other states would get behind this program too. I think the U.S. government (and state governments too) also passed a bill that allows a considerable amount to be taken as a tax deduction for a number of years as well. There must be other Hearth.com Forums detailing the language of those pieces of legislation. 
The citizens of the United States are the reason that solar systems or these alternative fuel systems will thrive and survive. Recently there was a hybrid Toyota driving around the Nashua NH area. It's license plate said FUOPEC. Perhaps the thought will catch on more this time than it did in the 70's.
Hey MES.... Don't forget all the nice things that I've said.


----------



## Mack The Knife

Any new updates on available pellet boilers and manufacturer's meeting the ramped up demand? I've recently heard of the Irish Woodpecker unit now available in New England. How is Harman, Tarm and Traeger doing with meeting consumer demand? Any comments on the associated installation costs for pellet boilers being kept reasonable?


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

Mack The Knife said:
			
		

> How is Harman, Tarm and Traeger doing with meeting consumer demand? Any comments on the associated installation costs for pellet boilers being kept reasonable?



Tarm and Traeger are both into November for availability right now, last I checked.

I suppose we could raise installation prices on them, given demand, but I'm of the opinion that alienating the public now is a bad idea - making a few thousand extra now is silly, if it costs me tens of thousands in lost business over the next decade.

Joe


----------



## sinnian

Cost me $6950 for PB150, $800 for flue piping and $3000 for installation (including all the pipes (copper), valves, etc).


----------



## mysticfalcon

Thats usually about what we charge.  Most PB150 installs are 10K-11K complete.   The problem around here is that we have a Harman dealer telling people that he will install his boilers for $800 total then when he goes and installs the boiler he doesn't do any of the piping.
And last week I called Traeger and they were telling me early January.  Im glad I still have a few in stock.


----------



## Mack The Knife

I'm patiently waiting to receive an affordable installation quote from MES. The local certified installers are still limited. I still have oil in the tank and those continued reports of the price coming down may slow the jump to pellets. I'm sure the first frost will fix that! 
I spoke with the distributor of the "Woodpecker" unit today. Cost of the unit is $12,500.00 with the same training/installation requirement that MES is requiring. These new units may have difficulty catching on if they are not affordable to the masses as stated in the response above. 
I think there have been over 6000 hits on this string, but only a handful of respondents. What are other consumers learning and hearing in their searches? What is the status of the U.S. manufactured Genesis II pellet boiler and the foreign Froeling unit et all? What is the current purchase, delivery, installation and costs status of Harmon, Traeger, Tarms (units mostly referred to here)? Am I correct in thinking that this is the limit of indoor pellet boilers available on the market today? 
We need to help each other with the best information available.


----------



## alaz

Harman is approx. $6000 plus $500-$700 installed for exhaust and combustion air (done by dealer) and anywhere from $1200-$2500 for piping.  I believe that the Traeger is in the ball park.  The Harman also has a 1500 lbs. Hopper for approx. $1500.  Does anyone know a the ecodynamic pellet boiler?  I believe they are being distributed out of Colorado.  There are limited US options.  At least to my knowledge.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

Mack The Knife said:
			
		

> What is the status of the ... Froeling unit et all?



Should be here next summer.

It's a very nice unit, and a proper "standalone" central heating system which can operate year-round without backup.  However, the price is expected to be commensurate with the quality and performance.



			
				Mack The Knife said:
			
		

> What is the current purchase, delivery, installation and costs status of Harmon, Traeger, Tarms (units mostly referred to here)?



Traeger PB150's are nearly always in the $10k-15k range, installed.  Tarms are typically in the $15k-20k range, installed.  At least, that's my experience with the units, based upon typical installations.  Start adding other things like automatic feeding systems, and the prices go up, depending upon how fancy the system is and what other options you are adding.

My concern with things like the MES boiler and the Woodpecker are that they will fall into the gap between affordable boilers like the Traeger and Harmon, and the high-end stuff like the Froeling.  Many folks who are interested in the added features of those boilers will be willing to shell out a bit more for the Froeling, leaving the potential open for the mid-range boilers to lose out.  I like the idea of mid-range boilers being out there, but the market doesn't really care what I like or dislike, and the mid-range for pellet systems may end up as small as the mid-range for conventional equipment.

I hope that does not end up being the case, because I really like the notion of a solid line-up of products being available to give many options to those who are interested in biomass fuels.  Taking this mainstream requires that there be demand, and if we can only hit the "affordable" and "Cadillac" crowds, demand will not be what it can be if there is a wider variety of offerings. 

Joe


----------



## Mack The Knife

See .....now I do regret not getting the Tarm installed for $12,500.00 when I had the chance.  
Maybe with the price of oil dropping as much as it has recently, these units and pellets will come down also.
I can already hear you laughing It's ok.... so am I.


----------



## Mack The Knife

Well look who is carrying the Froling boiler! It's nice to see some other quality indoor pellet boilers hitting our shores......Finally. 
I've asked countless times about the Genesis II (Made in America) an outdoor model and gotten no response. And where did the Harman's go? It seems that there are very few people talking about getting indoor pellet boilers installed. What gives??


----------



## heaterman

Mack The Knife said:
			
		

> Well look who is carrying the Froling boiler! It's nice to see some other quality indoor pellet boilers hitting our shores......Finally.
> I've asked countless times about the Genesis II (Made in America) an outdoor model and gotten no response. And where did the Harman's go? It seems that there are very few people talking about getting indoor pellet boilers installed. What gives??



Who?


----------



## Mack The Knife

TARM USA or now to be known as BIOHEATUSA. Nice changes/updates to the company web site also. I wonder when/if they will be carrying the full Froling product line?


----------



## whippingwater

If someone is looking for a good deal on a Tarm 4.0, check ebay. It includes the auto feed attachment for $9500.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

Mack The Knife said:
			
		

> TARM USA or now to be known as BIOHEATUSA. Nice changes/updates to the company web site also. I wonder when/if they will be carrying the full Froling product line?



Not the full line, but expect some additions in the spring.

Of course, the Froling products are priced like, well, Froling products...

Joe


----------



## Mack The Knife

Where are the other Maine Energy Systems Bosch Janfire owners posts? Freefromoil is here, but there have been no other posts. I've heard some of the challenges that others have dealt with through some conversations with other installers.
Our 4-Section Bosch Janfire unit was installed on November 18th. The 5/6-month wait was full of excitement and anticipation. The process of making the decision to purchase the Maine Energy System, to waiting for delivery and then getting the installation completed had its highs and lows. A lot could be learned. Our installers came with a great attitude and we all knew there was a learning curve ahead of us. The system required some tweaking adjustments to maximize the heat output etc. We were taken back by some of the installations quotes we received and even questioned our decision when oil prices plummeted. In an earlier posting I stated that I had turned down a Tarm 4.0 installation for $12,500.00. Cost of adding heat storage (very high) and no large bin took the Tarm off my list. In reality, everyone has to make a decision with what works within their budget. The Maine Energy System offered some options (the features) that we put more of a priority on. The features that we coveted were to have in indoor system that also had a large bin for weeks of sustainable heat instead of just a hopper for heating a few days to a week. At the time, Harman was the only other system to offer a large ton capacity bin. In some ways, I regret that I passed on a great season-ending price for the Harman last May. Posts within this forum regarding lack of support from Harman chased me away. In retrospect, the Harman's ash pan may have been the easiest to facilitate emptying. The MES system has no ash pan and ash removal must be accomplished more often than the "marketing/selling claims". Removing the ash from the MES system is easy enough to do, but should probably be accomplished every ton of pellets burned.
We have a 50+ gallon hot water storage tank and a 4 ton pellet bin alongside. Because we ordered 8 tons of pellets last May/June we have not had to use the bulk deliver feature. Pellet prices are too high right now In about an hours time my wife and I moved a ton from the driveway to being stacked and stored in our basement - really simple. Not a lot of fun, but it really wasn’t very hard or laborous. We used a slide to shoot the bags down to the basement. If given the choice between lugging 40 pound bags of pellets or cutting/splitting/stacking mega cords of wood, we made the right choice to go with pellets. There are now other pellet boiler systems available: Woodpecker, Pellergy, Froling, and the few that we had to select from: Tarm, Pinnacle/Traeger, Harman, Orlan, and MaineEnergySystems. If I omitted a unit - sorry. 
A key point to mention is that our 4-Section Bosch Janfire is actually "undersized" for our home. Once the system was tweaked to maximize output, I assure you that during the week or two of sub-zero and sub-freezing temperatures the unit kept the house plenty warm. Our oil boiler was very old, so we have no backup support, but didn’t need it. See Dutch Dresser’s blog link at the top of the MES homepage speaks to having his oil burner kicking on for backup during some of the coldest days of this season. We've experienced some of the same issues (Ash Scrape and a blown fuse). Get a package of fuses with installation.
THE ONE issue that really caused us frustration was the system kept shutting down when the water pump kicked on. It took "WEEKS" to troubleshoot because it didn't happen all the time. When we lost power during the ice storm, I was able to isolate it because we were on a generator. The well pump and pellet boiler cannot be on the same side of the circuit panel. The extra power draw when the water pump kicked on caused the unit to fault and shutdown.
More could be done to support the installer/customer by communicating "lessons learned" on the MES website.
Below is Freefromoil's response.
In mid-November we had a professional install Janfire/Bosch 6-section boiler.  We live in Central Maine and had a qualified MES installer who has been awesome.  If we hadn’t had a dedicated pro who was willing to work really hard to perfect the install and settings we would have been sadly disappointed with this system.  It is our single source of heat as we tossed the leaky old oil boiler to the curb.  We have had a few bumps here and there, but have been satisfied with the performance. 
This is our experience so far: 
5 tons burned since Nov. 15 in a 2500 sq foot drafty farmhouse. 
3 pellet deliveries at 2.75t each.  I would estimate our bin holds 3-3.5 tons they had to cut it down to fit our ceiling height. 
60 gallon hot water storage Top Performer indirect set to 135 dgrs= nice warm showers 
Weekly ash cleanings (don’t believe the once per season cleaning on MES site) 
Nice warm house (we even left the house untended for 4 days at Christmas without problem<risky thing to do, but nothing shut off) 
Problems: 
Constant Ash Scrape error from Janfire NH burner (solution: reduce amount of time b/w ash scrape and clean slag on burner we found a tiny piece of copper lodged under ash scraper left by install and were able to remove it) 
Overtemp shut down (boiler and burner have seperate temp controls and the boiler overheat at 240 degrees cause system shutdown / we were able to prevent this by reducing the janfire burner settings so the burner would not overshoot the 180 degree mark needed/ burner setting low 140 high 165/ 
Blown fuse (keep a few extra fast blow fuses handy in case needed as the heating coil inside burner can cause blown fuse at start up, we have reduced the stress on this by increasing burner standby time to 30 minutes so that a tiny flame will stay lit between calls for zone heat to avoid inefficient short cycling of burner) 
After working out these few kinks things have been running smoothly. 
Ten things you should now before install: 
1 This is not maintenance free system 
2 Someone should be home daily to ensure warm house 
3 Your basement will lose a lot of space 
4 Plan week ahead for fuel delivery 
5 Keep some extra bagged pellets (just in case) 
6 Much better than filling a wood stove 
7 Same price as oil 
8 Your home will be heated with a carbon neutral renewable resource 
9 Awesome for the local economy 
10 You can laugh when you see the oil truck go by that cost you 4500 dollars last year


----------



## Sting

point 7 = Same price as oil

point 10 = you laugh at the oil man when he drives by

Yet your claim:
it costs you as much to burn pellets
you now have far less room in the basement
you have far more work to facilitate burning pellets vs oil
and you have a huge cash investment in equipment vs if had you installed a modern oil fuel heating appliance and zoned you house for comfort.

Who are you kidding?


----------



## Mack The Knife

I'll have to let Freefromoil speak to his 10 points.
It sounds like his family chose to move to a pellet boiler because his "old leaky" oil burner wasn't performing well anymore.
We were faced with the same issue, a 30 year old oil boiler that needed replacing. Do I have regrets... sometimes, especially when oil prices plummeted after having rocketed all summer. I second guessed myself many times and thought to stay on oil. Our price of pellets (delivered) per btu was equal to what I paid for oil two years ago. Why are wood pellets suddenly so expensive?? Although the installed price of the Maine Energy System unit was a little higher than some of the systems I reviewed, it was lower than the anticipated price of the Froling unit that also caught my eye but not available until later this year. I tried to do as much research and homework as possible to educate myself. I don't think that I made an error. I was within a few $$$$ of other system quotes. Unfortunately GREED is rampant in the USA.
If the vast population of the USA could move off of oil and use alternatives at about the same price......should/would they? Aside from going to personal use solar or wind, which new alternative won't utility companies control? Ten years ago I watched NG pipelines being built within a mile of my old home in Maine that were to bring the fuel down from Canada to lower the costs in New England. It didn't. So what commodity out there won't go up in price in the next 10 -20 years? 
My hope is that this system that we've chosen to install has a good as a history as it does in Europe. Our basement space is not lost, it is used to suplement our families heating needs. I guess we could use it to collect a bunch of junk instead.
This is and will continue to be a learning process. I bet this unit outlasts anything Detroit produces and we'll get more mileage out of it too. 
Progress continues.....


----------



## hblacey

hi everybody. i just joined this forum to tell you NOT TO BUY A HARMON PELLET BOILER PB105. i have had the machine in my house for 2.5 months, and it yet to work problem free.  the unit arrived with a bad exhaust thermocouple that delayed the startup. it also came with the wrong pellet delivery slider plate. both these problems caused me time AND money to fix.  DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAD TO SHUT IT DOWN TO DO WEEKLY  MAINTENANCE?  right now, i the machine is sitting idle because the status light says there is something wrong, but all the items mentioned in the manual are working fine.  i just sent a message to HARMON that they dont have to worry about my status 6 shutting down the system, because I NOW GET A STATUS 5 - WHICH SAYS THE AUTO IGNITER WONT EVEN START THE SYSTEM!!  i am in the process of telling HARMON to take the damn thing back.


----------



## Sting

Hey jo

Here is another victim to beat up because his install is wrong -- in your opinion right?

Does he need a parasitic dump zone to waste fuel and make it run correctly?


----------



## wil lanfear

hblacey said:
			
		

> hi everybody. i just joined this forum to tell you NOT TO BUY A HARMON PELLET BOILER PB105. i have had the machine in my house for 2.5 months, and it yet to work problem free. the unit arrived with a bad exhaust thermocouple that delayed the startup. it also came with the wrong pellet delivery slider plate. both these problems caused me time AND money to fix. DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAD TO SHUT IT DOWN TO DO WEEKLY MAINTENANCE? right now, i the machine is sitting idle because the status light says there is something wrong, but all the items mentioned in the manual are working fine. i just sent a message to HARMON that they dont have to worry about my status 6 shutting down the system, because I NOW GET A STATUS 5 - WHICH SAYS THE AUTO IGNITER WONT EVEN START THE SYSTEM!! i am in the process of telling HARMON to take the damn thing back.


 TO LATE, I have owned one for over a year now. The items that you mention that were faulty from day one are warranty items, why did you pay for them to be replaced??? It's no big secret, pellet burning stoves or boilers do require cleaning ( weekly maintenance), they all require shutting down to do so, were you told differently??? Status light 5 is probably the igniter, have you removed the plate on the front of the burnpot to clean this area, this is where the igniter is located?? The issues that you have had should have been corrected by your dealer. Did you contact the dealer?? A word of caution, it is the owners responsibility to clean the unit, not the dealer. If you have a failure, the cause from not cleaning, you pay for the servive call. Did your dealer show you the procedure for weekly maintenance (cleaning)???

I'm not a Harman dealer, I have learned a few things that my dealer was not even aware of on the PB105, still learning.


----------



## Mack The Knife

What a shame. 
The pellet boiler technology is new to this country and the industry is just starting/hoping to get its feet firmly planted, although they may not last long. People want to learn about it and support it, but manufacturers, distributors, and installers need to be forthcoming and honest with the information about it. The consumer shouldn't have to rely on a post on Hearth.com to warn them about products. There are so many new installers out there, some are even designated/required to be "certified". There is a definate learning curve for the installers and consumers to this technology. The pellet boiler is not a pellet stove. In what seems to have been too many cases of products not performing properly, the manufacturers and distributors need to step up and be more supportive of the consumer, who is helping them to build their business and spread the word, instead of leaving them to get totally pissed off. I remember trying so hard to educate myself on a half dozen products so that I could make a smart decision for our purchase. Why is everyone involved trying to make the quick/big $$$$ right out of the gate? Greed sucks. Why is any manufacturers unit priced to install over 10K?? A Froeling unit at 20K?? C'mon! When the price of oil (and oil boiler installation) is down who will spend that kind of money to transition over to a pellet boiler system? If my installation were delayed much longer I would have bought a new oil boiler and filled my 600 gallon oil tanks for a lot less than what my MES and 8 tons of pellets cost me. When is my break-even payback now? We needed a new oil boiler, so the opportunity presented itself to make the transition. Six months of worry about where the price of oil was going and the installed cost of a new pellet boiler caused us great concern last year.
Even a relative in the HVAC business suggested that perhaps we should enter the pellet boiler realm on the low end of costs (the Harman unit) to see what & where the pellet boiler industry and what would become the former oil economy would land. Of course the price of oil plummeted as soon as our MES system was installed after a 6-month wait from when the decision was made to go to the pellet boiler technology. The same "greed" thinking holds true for the pellet manufacturers. A ton of pellets raced to over $375.00 per ton. Today it is at $249.00. Where is the ratioanale? Are pellets goignt o be a commodity like oil, or NG? Imagine losing 1/2 ton or more of pellets because the manufacturer didn't protect them from rain well enough when delivered? What is the consumers recourse? Unfortunately the same mentality exists in screwing the consumer so that someone else can make their money and hide behind a LLC designation.
Let's hope the business "standards" used by the pellet and pellet boiler industry and their communication get better.


----------



## BrownianHeatingTech

Sting said:
			
		

> Hey jo
> 
> Here is another victim to beat up because his install is wrong -- in your opinion right?
> 
> Does he need a parasitic dump zone to waste fuel and make it run correctly?



He hasn't indicated anything about his install, Sting.  Hence, I don't know if it is right or wrong.  It's entirely possible that his install is done correctly, and given the symptoms that he describes, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Unlike some individuals, I won't distort the truth for personal gain.

Joe


----------



## OldDedHed

Hi folks new to this forum. Some here I "know" from the iburncorn.com burning forum. I have an LDJ boiler that burns pellets just fine. Takes a little fiddling with settings, but I have burned both corn and pellets with just a little effort. Being in the Northeast I looked at Tarm, too, and was scared away by the price. The LDJ is UL listed and ASME rated, and runs on pretty simple controls. Dealers are a little scarce in the upper right corner, but you can buy direct if you don't have a dealer. It's been a good unit for me. My two cents' worth....


----------



## jdeere5220

It is the responsibility of the boiler manufacturer to train their dealer network. There is no excuse for allowing untrained dealers doing marginal installs. There is no excuse for a dealer not educating the prospective buyer about what will be required to operate his biomass burner/boiler. I understand the frustration that I read in some of these messages. These are expensive units and the sales/install/support process (at least from some manufacturers) isn't yet what a reasonable person should expect for a product in this price range.

Before I bought my corn burner I researched this a lot (I thought) and I did know that weekly cleaning was going to be required. Still there was an awful lot the dealer could have told me but didn't, because (I now realize) he didn't know himself to ask. Like "Do you want to use 1.25" PEX lines, which will cost more but is better because.....", or "do you want to use a zone bypass here? It will cost more up front but save you in the long run because....". It would have been nice to know these things at the start.

Another example... 8 months ago I had pretty well picked out the boiler I wanted from the online info. I used the dealer locator, and it came up with "Bens SuperCenter", a local grocery/lumberyard/drugstore. I'm not joking. That's basically like buying your boiler at Walmart. I went there, and tried to ask questions, and found out that I knew more about this particular burner than anyone there. I walked out.

It is slowly getting better.  4 months ago I repeated this process, decided on the same outdoor corn burner, did another dealer search, and this time it came up with a local guy. I called him, and he had actually done a few installs and was heating his own house with the unit for over two years!! Wow!!

Don't get me wrong I'm happy with quality of the boiler. The install works, allthough it's not what you guys would call perfect by any means and I'm slowly improving it. I don't think the dealer purposely shorted me or anything, I just think the manufacturer should be training the dealers correctly.

My .02


----------



## Mack The Knife

As stated in my last post I'm worried about the commodity driven industry screwing customers. 
What recommendations are out there to maximize our boiler installation investments? I was told to insulate my unfinished basement ceiling/first floor to gain another 10% of heat. Does running tubes under the first floor further increase household heat dispersion and efficiency? Does anyone have a cost analysis of such an installation with heat output end use return (if that makes sense)? Maybe I'll add a wind farm in the back yard!!
Thanks!!


----------



## jdeere5220

Mack-

You raise a lot of good points. The information regarding best install, investment returns, installation, pumps, pipe size, exchangers, storage, fuels, etc. is probably all in this and similar forums but it's not to my knowledge consolidated into an easy to locate booklet style format. There are Wikis on various pieces, but not one all-encompassing that I know of. Maybe it's just too much, but I think it's just exactly the sort of thing a group effort can accomplish. Maybe I'll start a new public Wiki and let everyone contribute.... no charge, no advertising, just folks helping folks.

Regarding a wind turbine, I just don't like the payback right now. I'm in a class III wind zone (really good!), but it would take ~15 years to break even on a 5KW turbine. Since that's longer than the warranty on the machine, it doesn't make sense to me right now.


----------



## MikePelletier

I installed a Harman PB105 last Fall.  I had looked at the Tarm boilers.  Nice units and the folks that
sell and service them are really good people.  There was no way I could justify their price, though.  
My only experience with pellet burners and Harman was that I had purchased a P-61 in '05 to heat
my basement.  I loved it and had no problems with it whatsoever.  Based on that, I bought a PB105
to heat the entire house.  There are some things I like about it, and other things I'm less than thrilled
about.  
What I like:
This thing is so quiet, as compared to an oil furnace.  Where we use the cellar so much for hobby and
office space, it's great to have a quiet boiler.  
The design is great and cleaning it takes a matter of less than 20 minutes, including cleaning the probe
and stovepipe.

What I didn't care for:
1. The initial dip switch settings were wrong and start-up would fail for a lack of pellets in the burn pot.
A call to my local dealership took care of that.  They gave me the correct settings.  (Not in the manual!)
2. In five months, I have gone through two igniters.  They just go "open" and don't work.  I'm hoping 
the next one will last longer.  
3. Lighting it manually gets old fast....  The P-61 isn't so bad because the burn pot is head-on and very
accessible.  Not so with the PB-105.  
4. The manual recommends cleaning the mouth of the burn pot whenever pellets are added.  This isn't
practical, given the aforementioned orientation of the PB-105 burn pot.

All in all, I'm happy with it.  I'm confident that the next igniter will be more robust.  I can live with the
cleaning requirements.  It heated our home comfortably and quietly.

Best regards,

Mike


----------



## fireguy976

Hi all,

brand new to this forum, because as most new people looking for info on pellet heat, but in particular a pellet boiler.

First I wish to thank Mack the knife in particular for posting so much of his research, and then everyone elso who helped with responses.

As mentioned Im looking to purchase a pellet boiler for a new house that I will be building new spring, so I have some time to do some research, but as Im not an impulse buyer Im trying to get all my ducks in a row.

The area we are building has no gas, so the only other options are propane, oil or geothermal. I love the idea of geo, but with a 35K minimum up front its a little scary.

My parameters are heated water for radiant floors and DHW. Im planning on doing some type of solar thermal as a preheat to the very cold welll water that comes in.

Ive decided I dont want a unit that has to be manual lit, and those types usually have a minimum constant burn. Something that has some sort of minimal auto cleaning so you are not cleaning the pot every night, and some sort of decent hopper for more than 2 days burn time.

Some of the ones Ive done _some _reading into are the Froling, the Traeger, the Janfire.

As some here have these unit, and from the dates of postings , had these for at least one full season, Im very must interested in your feedback.

Also anyone with other boiler units that have had good experience, please let all of us know.

There maybe other lurkers out there reading this thread who also could benefit.

Finally, one interesting unit I fount on a site is the Ja-ran multi fuel biomass boiler. Anyone know of this unit.

Thanks again to all with your postings and help,

Regards,
Ken Jackson


----------



## MikePelletier

Hi Ken.

Research up front is always a good idea.

The Harman PB-105 has been rock solid since I replaced the second igniter.  I think they just had
a bad lot of them.  (But I still keep a spare...)

Cleaning: I switched to Okanagan pellets this year.  What a difference in cleaning.  They have so little
ash that I only need to clean the burn pot every ten days or so.  What a difference over what I used
last year  So something to keep in mind is that you want to use a high heat, low ash pellet.  I have
used Cubex, NEWP Green Supreme, and Okanagan and had excellent luck with them.  There are some
that you need to watch out for.  (You can't get a good deal if it's a bad pellet.)  I'm sure the boiler you
decide on will also affect your burn experience.

Hopper Size: Much of how long your pellets last is how much you need to run your boiler.  I get three
days of burn from about five bags worth in the Harman PB-105.  I'm heating just over 2,000 sf.  But
we have good southern exposure for passive solar so on sunny days it runs less, even in the dead of
winter.

Storage: This another consideration.  Pellets take up room.  My basement is chocked full of pellets.  It's
nice to have them inside, but it's a nuisance to have them everywhere.  I'm thinking about a bulk pellet
system looking forward.  

Good luck, Ken.  If I can answer any questions I invite you to ask away!!

Best regards,

Mike


----------



## fireguy976

Hi again,

so I gave the Froling/Tarm dealer a call.

ready for this???? the small Froling P4 unit is $15,500 but out the door he said about $18000   WOW!

We chatted a bit about the 1.5 Tarm re the manual start up and the cleaning. he mentioned the ash removal is about 3 to 4 days during heavy use, and the unit does not have to be shut down or cool for this. Also still need a back up water heater for DHW during the non heating times.

Love to hear from any Tarm owners as well.

Time to call the Traeger rep

KJ


----------



## Fsappo

The Pinnacle PB150 is a nice, simple unit.  No electronic ignition, easy to work on, 130K btus.  Corn or pellet. $7000-7500. Sold tons with many happy customers.  This unit may have been discussed already but I didnt want to read 7 pages of posts to check.


----------



## foamit up

I believe Vigas that Ahona is importing makes a pellet boiler with hopper that can burn pellets or splits. Might want to check that out. http://www.ahona.com/   Foamit up


----------



## Sting

Now that the Pinnacle PB150 has switched to a more fault tolerant and serviceable combustion fan -- you should give it a second look.  Auto ignition isn't all its cracked up to be when you begin replacing resistance ignition devices.


----------



## whippingwater

I have a Tarm 4.0 heating about 4200 sf with baseboard main floor and radiant in basement with a watermaker for DHW. I have few windows on the south side, walkout basement with 2/3 exposed and 6 sliding glass doors on the north side (2-9 footers, that's where the river is). I would use 1500 gallons of propane and now use 9 ton of pellets. I light it in mid September till mid May. I don't shut down for cleaning and empty the ash when i fill the hopper which is once a week in spring/fall and about 4 days in the winter. Once a month I scrape and brush the tubes. I have my idle interval set at 45 minutes so it burns little at idle. The many available settings are great for adjusting to what is required for the season or just use the factory recommendations and forget about it. A great unit and I almost forget about it at times it's so automatic. I would still recommend a backup system, I have mine in parallel with my propane boiler.


----------



## garybeck

I'm in the same boat as you, and wondering if you've gotten any closer to your choice?

I have an oil boiler and I want to get off fossil fuels.  I've been searching for pellet boilers and come to mainly the Harman, LDJ, and Pinnacle.  There is the Frojling also but it is almost twice the price.

out of the three that I've been looking at, the Harman is the only that has a self-ignitor.  This makes it possible to use the unit year round and heat my water.  It also seems like the system will be more efficient, even in the winter, because it can actually shut down when there is no call for heat.

the other two - LDJ and Pinnacle - stay on all winter long.  You fire it up in the fall and it is designed to stay on.  It will go into low burn mode when there is no call for heat, but this (theoretically in my mind) is less efficient than shutting off.  I believe duty cycles of boilers can be 50% or so, so this is a significant issue.

My neighbor has a Harman furnace (not boiler) and he says he has never had an issue with the self-start.    My LDJ dealer says that the electricity consumption of the self-start offsets the pellets saved.  I find this hard to believe.  I even called Harman and asked, and they said it takes about 4-7 minutes of a 450 watt element to start the boiler.  That's not a significant power draw really.

The other main difference is the system disign.  With the LDJ, they want me to just put a loop on my existing boiler, leading to the LDJ.  The LDJ then just heats the water in the existing boiler and everything else stays the same.  They offset the temeperature settings on the aquastats, so that if the LDJ runs out of pellets, the oil boiler will kick on automatically.  With the Harman, I would 
install it as a separate boiler.  I could switch between the oil boiler and the pellet boiler, but they wouldn't work in tandem as with the LDJ.  Not sure about the Pinnacle.

So I'm looking for more feedback from owners, and others in the same boat as me.  I don't want to spend $7K on something that doesn't work, or pick the wrong one.

Any feedback is appreciated.  (and I understand the warning in the message pinned at the top of the forum).

thanks
gary in Vermont
Like others here, I'm just trying to decide


----------



## MikePelletier

Hi Gary.

I have my Harman installed in parallel with my oil furnace.  I travel quite a
bit and don't want the house to cool down if for some reason the Harman
doesn't start.  It's just a matter of flipping the oil on, the Harman off and 
manipulating one 90-degree valve.  In all fairness I must say that since I
replaced the second igniter in December of last year, I have had no issues
whatsoever.  The combustion blower keeps going for quite some time even
after the boiler goes into shutdown, but it's so that there are no residual
hot ash in the burn pot.  It's pretty quiet so that's really a non-issue.

Where in VT? (Send me a PM if you want to swing by and see it in action.
I'm not far off interstate 89. ) 

Best regards,

Mike


----------



## fireguy976

Just wanted to add an update,

been looking at the Central Boiler company, they have a varierty of products including a pellet boiler. My cousin who has an outdoor wood boiler did some asking and the dealer he used for his old machine (not a Central BTW) says he has heard good things about them.

The Pellet Boiler is their Maxim series, and one of the features I like about it is it auto ignites with the help of a propane BBQ cylinder.

http://www.maximheat.com/

Nice video on their site re the Maxim and its hook up.

Ill keep posting as I find out more, but these look to be worth further investigation.

Cheers all,

Ken J


----------



## Sting

garybeck said:
			
		

> The other main difference is the system disign.  With the LDJ, they want me to just put a loop on my existing boiler, leading to the LDJ.  The LDJ then just heats the water in the existing boiler and everything else stays the same.  They offset the temeperature settings on the aquastats, so that if the LDJ runs out of pellets, the oil boiler will kick on automatically.  With the Harman, I would
> install it as a separate boiler.  I could switch between the oil boiler and the pellet boiler, but they wouldn't work in tandem as with the LDJ.  Not sure about the Pinnacle.



do not be deceived by salesman's' claims or product brochures - such as above! 

ANY hot water appliance can be installed in any configuration you would like or that will lend itself to your application. Every installation is different. You might have a series of boilers - or they might be in parallel - you can have stand alone or a multitude. You can have one zone or 27. You can have one heating another - a boiler loop - or a supply loop - or no loop . You can have primary secondary plumbing. 

What can you imagine - you can build.


----------



## harttj

fireguy976 said:
			
		

> Just wanted to add an update,
> 
> been looking at the Central Boiler company, they have a varierty of products including a pellet boiler. My cousin who has an outdoor wood boiler did some asking and the dealer he used for his old machine (not a Central BTW) says he has heard good things about them.
> 
> The Pellet Boiler is their Maxim series, and one of the features I like about it is it auto ignites with the help of a propane BBQ cylinder.
> 
> http://www.maximheat.com/
> 
> Nice video on their site re the Maxim and its hook up.
> 
> Ill keep posting as I find out more, but these look to be worth further investigation.
> 
> Cheers all,
> 
> Ken J



You might want to check out iburncorn.com
 Some maxim threads in the old forum under other manufactures

Some use corn and some pellets.

Tim


----------



## fireguy976

Any updates from the group???

Tending to lean towards the Traeger/Pinnacle, 

but still looking into the VIGAS

KJ


----------



## Sting

Those VIGAS are like candy in a window


----------



## Fsappo

fireguy976 said:
			
		

> Any updates from the group???
> 
> Tending to lean towards the Traeger/Pinnacle,
> 
> but still looking into the VIGAS
> 
> KJ



Fireguy, check your PMs


----------



## fireguy976

Sting said:
			
		

> Those VIGAS are like candy in a window




Ok Im lost with that one,,,

do you have experience with them?

KJ


----------



## Sting

fireguy976 said:
			
		

> Sting said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those VIGAS are like candy in a window
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Im lost with that one,,,
> 
> do you have experience with them?
> 
> KJ
Click to expand...


it was sort of a lament from a guy with shallow pockets  - more appliance than I can afford


----------



## Hoval

Last Fall I converted my Hoval ZKT to a pellet burner using a PellX 20KW burner conversion.  The original Hoval was a 30 year old multi fuel boiler made by Gustav Ospelt Hovalwerk AG In Liechtenstein.  When I bought it I was told that I could heat with anything-Oil, Nat Gas, Liquid Propane, Wood, Electric or Coal.  I don't think that Wood Pellets were even a gleam in the eye of the manufacture.  For the switch I made two adaptor plates so I can switch back to fuel oil in 10 minutes if necessary.  It think has a 150 gal of heating hot water and 50 gal of domestic hot water, with 5 zones of baseboard heat.  Over the years I have used fuel oil for the whole year going through 1200 to 1500 gals per year.  I priced Fuel oil yesterday at $3.399 per gallon. Thatâ€™s $4,078 to $5,098 per year in todayâ€™s prices.  Several of the years I used a mix of Coal in the late fall, after temperatures were below 35F, winter and early spring switching to Oil for the rest of the year as I used this for my hot water all year.  I would usually go through 4 tons of coal (say $980) and 450 gal of oil (say $1,500).  I started using pellets in September and I have used 6 Tons or $1,580 so far this year.  On the very cold weeks I will go through 1 ton in 2 weeks.

The Hoval that I have was a perfect unit for conversion.  What I have found out is that I need to clean the burner every 1000# of pellets burned and clean the boiler every ton of pellets burned.  This requires that you can gain access to the fire box and heat exchanger.  My Hoval has a swing open door that opens up the front of the unit for cleaning. I then use a small shovel to clean the ash off the bottom of the boiler and a brush and vacuum to clean the heat exchanger (after it has cooled off).  I spend about 10 to 15 minutes to clean the burner and half an hour to clean the boiler.

The PellX unit comes complete with the control box that allows you to adjust several functions to get the proper burn.  I can adjust the amount of pellets feed rate for start up, pellets feed rate to operate, fan speed and the temperature on the high limit as well as 4 start up temperature options based on the high temperature shut off.  An auger is included that is about 1.7 meters feet long.  The unit also includes a temperature sending unit that needs a well in the boiler for shut off temperature.  I did need to buy a safety temperature shut off as a safety back up. (this has never been triggered)  The burner has a high temperature shut off on the pellet inlet stack. (this has shut the unit down three times when I have not cleaned the burner often enough.)  The PellX unit is self lighting, self shut off, self feeding and somewhat self cleaning of the burner.

 My useage bin holds 1 ton at a time.  I built mine out of plywood on legs with tin for the bottom to help the pellets slide down to a 3â€ pvc toilet fitting that goes into a 3â€ pvc â€œYâ€.  I used a 45 degree â€œYâ€ unit that drops the pellets into the straight part of the â€œYâ€.  This allows me to remove and replace the auger if needed while the bin is loaded. (it comes out easy but need some fooling with to get back in)

My plans are to make my own pellets starting this spring.   I have found a supply of product and plan to process and produce about 600# every hour.  But that is another story.  Let me know if you are interested.   Let me know what you think.

The Pellx conversion unit cost $3,275 and in my case will pay for itself in less than one year compared to the cost of oil.  This is not for everyone as you need the proper boiler and first hand knowledge of your boiler as well as allowing some time to service the unit.  For me the time to clean is far less that the time I was spending heating with coal.

You can leave me a message with questions.


----------



## fireguy976

Hi all,

looks like we will be changing direction now,

going pellet furnace, so time to check them out. Leaning towards the Pinnacle.

Good luck all.

KJ


----------



## astock1977

All,

Just joined, looking into doing this with next year's tax refund. Looking at options right now. Questions I have:

Is the Maxim from Central Boiler an outdoor or indoor unit?? Looks like indoor, but on their site it says outdoor boiler.

I'm looking at this unit from Harman, anyone have any experience with it?
http://www.blackswanhome.com/product/hydroflex60-pellet-boiler

Also, anyone know dealers that will finance? I've seen a couple, but that is all.

-Andrew


----------



## harttj

astock1977 said:
			
		

> All,
> 
> Just joined, looking into doing this with next year's tax refund. Looking at options right now. Questions I have:
> 
> Is the Maxim from Central Boiler an outdoor or indoor unit?? Looks like indoor, but on their site it says outdoor boiler.
> 
> I'm looking at this unit from Harman, anyone have any experience with it?
> http://www.blackswanhome.com/product/hydroflex60-pellet-boiler
> 
> Also, anyone know dealers that will finance? I've seen a couple, but that is all.
> 
> -Andrew



Outdoor.


----------



## astock1977

Thanks, that was what I figured. I can't do outdoor though...not enough room on property to meet CT regulations.


----------



## EcoHeat

> the Harman is the only that has a self-ignitor.


 *EcoBoilers* also have automatic ignition, and like other pellet boilers, can be paired with existing oil or propane boilers.  The wood pellet boiler becomes the primary heat source, while the oil or propane boiler becomes the back-up, or in the case of very large heat-loads, the supplementary heat source.

I'm attaching an image of a chart of *wood pellets prices vs. oil and propane prices*.  Prices are different everywhere you look, but this chart lets you see how much the discount is where you are.  Multiply your heating costs by the percentage discount on the chart to approximate how much you can save annually.  In most cases, it's somewhere between $1,000 and $2,000 a year. I hope the image is readable.



		Code:
	

http://www.ecoheatsolutions.com/fuelpricecomparisons.html


----------



## Sting

Do you have that spread sheet with Natural Gas on the left?


----------



## astock1977

Sting said:
			
		

> Do you have that spread sheet with Natural Gas on the left?



Or with fuel oil/#2 kerosene?


----------



## EcoHeat

Here's a chart with *Natural gas* prices compared to wood pellets, and* Kerosene *prices compared to wood pellets.  Natural gas is very cheap now, and therefore it's hard to make an economic argument for switching to wood pellets.  Kerosene is expensive compared to wood pellets, so switching to wood pellets is much easier to justify.


----------



## Como

Our Propane is under $2.5 a gallon, for now anyway.

The tricky bit is knowing what future prices over the life of the Boiler will be.

Then there is efficiency ratings. These charts assume the same level, whilst it would be reasonable to assume that any given new gas boiler will be more efficient than a comparable pellet boiler.

I assume they would be connected to a similar delivery system, forced air, under floor etc so you could ignore that.


----------



## EcoHeat

*Propane prices have increased a little more than 9% per year for the past 12 years! *That trend may moderate as people find alternative fuel sources, but depletion in North America, and increased demand overseas should keep the trend going up.  Even with propane at $2.50/gallon, wood pellets are much less expensive.

Thermal efficiency is higher with new propane appliances, but usually not as high as advertised. If the heat emitters require high temperatures, these boilers will not condense the flue gases, and so they won't achieve the high efficiencies they're rated at.


----------

