# Geospring Air Source Hot Water: Installed



## CarbonNeutral (Feb 6, 2011)

I finally pulled the trigger on the Geospring to replace heating my hot water with my horribly inefficient oil boiler. As I wasn't replacing an existing electric heater, installation was a little more involved, but pretty smooth.

I did have an issue with the system thinking it wasn't filled with water, but that seemed to sort itself out.

Took my first shower that didn't vary widely in temperature, along with no bouts of lukewarm water. 

Unusually for me I took out the extended warranty for $80 - it takes on site maintenance through to 12 years - I figured it was worth it as these types of units have been known to have issues with motors/circuit boards..

Pleased so far.


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## Highbeam (Feb 7, 2011)

Cost, photos, specs? We would love details. I have come to realize that my smallish electric tank heater isn't up to the task so planned on going propane on-demand. I love to see real world installed experiences.


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## CarbonNeutral (Feb 7, 2011)

Obviously it will be a while before I can talk about long term experience, but I will update.

It's a 50 gallon model - well reviewed wherever you look, and hybrid in that it has a 30A element to better meet high demand. We are a family of four - two younger kids, but frequent visitors from elsewhere. We will try to modify usage - not running the dishwasher immediately after showers for example. Lowes had it on discount for $1400 from $1600. With plumbing and electrical supplies and the extra warranty, I was back up to around $1600.

My electric company will give me 20% of the installed cost, capped at $300. I maxed the 2009/2010 federal rebate with my wood stove, but will be able to claim $300 credit in next year's taxes (http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=tax_credits.tx_index), bringing the installed cost to around $1000. I was spending an ungodly amount on oil for heating water, so am expecting a very quick return on investment - certainly less than two years.

It's in my basement in New England. The winters will affect my efficiency, and the unit will switch to resistive only when the temperature down there drops below 45deg (which at the moment, it doesn't tend to, but equally I wasn't cooling the space either)

I'm looking forward to the cooling/dehumidification in the summer. I have a lot more confidence in this unit than the types that you hook into an existing/old tank - the icing issues and lack of conventional element would not have worked well for our family.

There's a lot more info on the GE site: http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/

Photos to come, though my basement is much like anyone else's


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## semipro (Feb 7, 2011)

I installed one a few months back and have been happy with it so far.  Its hard to gauge energy savings though with some many other variables.  

Now I'm trying to figure out how to direct any waste heat in my house to the room in the basement where this thing lives. 

Seems to me it would make a lot of sense to somehow combine a water heater and a fridge as one always needs to be cold and the other always hot.


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## CarbonNeutral (Feb 7, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> I installed one a few months back and have been happy with it so far.  Its hard to gauge energy savings though with some many other variables.
> 
> Now I'm trying to figure out how to direct any waste heat in my house to the room in the basement where this thing lives.
> 
> Seems to me it would make a lot of sense to somehow combine a water heater and a fridge as one always needs to be cold and the other always hot.



Agreed - in fact it would be good to have an entirely closed system - need to cool your house, but warm your pool and hot water - one unit....


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## Huskyforlife (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm curious to know what is your electric rate delivered?  Also, was your oil boiler a direct water heater or did you have an indirect storage tank?  I have an oil boiler with an indirect tank and the only thing we use it for is the hot water and a backup to the stove in case we leave the house, so I looked into getting one of these heat pump water heaters.  I did the calculation a while ago and the payback was a lot longer than two years, but I assumed it wouldn't be as efficient as GE says due to our cold winters and the resistive heat kicking on.


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## CarbonNeutral (Feb 8, 2011)

With other charges, I average around 15c a KwH. Boiler is a direct water heater (with the tiny internal tank), and 40 years old. Honestly, even with a normal resistive heater, I'd be ahead in pretty short order - it's that bad. I also figure that electric rates tend to fluctuate less.


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## Huskyforlife (Feb 8, 2011)

15c / kWH is what I pay in CT as well.  Those direct water heaters are really bad.  My indirect is not as bad, especially since I turned down the boiler limit to 160*.  It probably burns 150-200 gal a year producing the hot water.  However, with heating oil creeping toward the $3.50/gal mark, it may be time to take another look at this.  Especially if it does a good job dehumidifying the basement, we run a dehumidifier in the summer, so not having to run that would offset the cost somewhat.


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## CarbonNeutral (Feb 8, 2011)

I average 6-7 gallons a week, around 350 a year on just hot water (well, actually some hot water, some just because the boiler likes to keep its internal tank hot regardless). I will look to turn the aquastat down - good idea

EDIT: Just dropped it from LO160/HI200 to LO140/HI170


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## CarbonNeutral (Feb 11, 2011)

So far, I haven't needed to install the condensate pump - not a drop of moisture. That's sure going to change in the summer...


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## jimbom (Feb 17, 2011)

Semipro said:
			
		

> I installed one a few months back and have been happy with it so far.  Its hard to gauge energy savings though with some many other variables.
> 
> Now I'm trying to figure out how to direct any waste heat in my house to the room in the basement where this thing lives.
> 
> Seems to me it would make a lot of sense to somehow combine a water heater and a fridge as one always needs to be cold and the other always hot.



Two excellent points in this post:  

The heat geo-thing uses in the winter comes from some heat source inside the dwelling.  That is you have already paid to put winter heat in your house that this unit uses to heat the water.

Right now the fridge puts heat into the house warming inside air.  But if you heat with wood, you don't need extra heat and the fridge has to work against 70 - 80 F temperatures.  If the fridge was rejecting heat to incoming 50 F water, hot water energy might be less and the fridge would be more efficient.

Vending machines in Japan are double barrel.  One side vends cold beer and the other vends hot sake.  Most are outside along the sidewalk year round.  I think they also have soda and hot tea, but can't confirm that from personal experience.


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## CarbonNeutral (Feb 17, 2011)

JimboM said:
			
		

> The heat geo-thing uses in the winter comes from some heat source inside the dwelling.  That is you have already paid to put winter heat in your house that this unit uses to heat the water.



True if the heater is in a heated space. Mine is in the basement - most heat generated down there is wasted through the uninsulated walls, and conversely, I also draw heat into the basement from the soil around the house if it gets that cold down there. 

If the heater was on a living floor, you'd be better off turning it to resistive heat during heating months (though the only real waste would be the noise it produces, everything else would end up back as heat).


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 3, 2011)

After thinking it over for a few weeks I ordered a Geospring from Lowes yesterday.  I went back and measuring my heating oil consumption for hot water and just keeping the boiler warm and it was about 25 gal/month.  With heating oil at $3.70/gal and climbing that's about $100.   I figure the Geospring will cost about $25/month to run.  I probably wouldn't have made the switch when oil was around two bucks a gallon, but at double that it makes sense to do.

We are going to do a couple other things to reduce our hot water consumption as well - washing clothes in cold water, and installing heat trap loops when I plumb the new water heater (my current tank doesn't have them).  

I'm hoping it will do a decent job of dehumidifying the basement as well this summer as well.  We had to run a dehumidifier last year for a couple months because of the humidity levels down there.  Not having to do that would be a pretty good cost savings.


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## CarbonNeutral (Mar 3, 2011)

Instead of bothering with the loops, you can buy the heat traps that screw directly onto the tank - they have little rubber flaps to stop convection - about $8 for a pair of them - they are over with the hot water tank/dryer accessories usually. If you don't put some form of heat trap it invalidates the warranty according to the Lowes guy...

If you're going to need a condensate pump, you can hold off until the summer - my basement air is so dry there hasn't been a drop of water through the drain hose yet.


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 3, 2011)

I'll have to look those up.  I heard negative things about the check valve ones (they're loud and they can stick open) but nothing about those.

Fortunately I don't need a condensate pump.  I have a drain right next to where I'm going to place the unit.

Did your electric bill go up significantly with the new water heater?


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## CarbonNeutral (Mar 3, 2011)

Don't know yet - our bills have been getting progressively worse (ever since my wife quit her job, and I went back to work - strange coincidence...)


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## jimbom (Mar 3, 2011)

Huskyforlife said:
			
		

> We had to run a dehumidifier last year for a couple months because of the humidity levels down there.  Not having to do that would be a pretty good cost savings.



I found that very true with my little Kill A Watt meter.  Our old dehumidifier is an energy hog.


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## tom in maine (Mar 3, 2011)

Another option:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Heat-Pump-Domes...673?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415708f779


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## CarbonNeutral (Mar 3, 2011)

The reason I went with the GE over some of the more 'home grown' options comes down to avoiding freezing of the coils (some suffered from this), the inclusion of a standard coil for high usage times, and a feeling that some of these setups were not A1 for safety.


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## tom in maine (Mar 3, 2011)

This is a common problem with the Airtap. I have a couple Geysers with no defrost issues.


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 3, 2011)

Tom in Maine said:
			
		

> Another option:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Heat-Pump-Domes...673?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415708f779



Seems like a lot of money for a unit with no warranty, that you have to provide a tank for.  The GE is a complete package with a 10 year warranty and eligible for the $300 tax credit.  Is this?


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## tom in maine (Mar 3, 2011)

All true, but when a GE tank springs a leak, can you swap over the heat pump to a new tank?

I don't know, just something to ponder.


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## CarbonNeutral (Mar 4, 2011)

Tom in Maine said:
			
		

> All true, but when a GE tank springs a leak, can you swap over the heat pump to a new tank?
> 
> I don't know, just something to ponder.



Agreed - and one of the reasons I bought the extended warranty for mine - I should be guaranteed 11 years use out of it with labor and parts paid for


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## btuser (Mar 8, 2011)

Can the heat pump run in series with a boiler?  I'm asking because I'd like to have the heat pump running in the Summer but fear the unit would not keep up with peak HW demand.   If the unit could be run in series I could mount it remotely to an area more central to my basement.


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## jimbom (Mar 8, 2011)

Financially, this thing would work for me if I could run it in the heat pump only mode most of the time.  The online information I could find and the guy at the store could not tell me the actual output of the heat pump in KW or Btu/hr.  Does anyone know this information?  Or has anyone recorded the ambient temperature, voltage, and current draw when in the heat pump only mode?  Thanks in advance, Jim


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## CarbonNeutral (Mar 9, 2011)

btuser said:
			
		

> Can the heat pump run in series with a boiler?  I'm asking because I'd like to have the heat pump running in the Summer but fear the unit would not keep up with peak HW demand.   If the unit could be run in series I could mount it remotely to an area more central to my basement.



With an exterior storage tank, I'm sure you could work something out. I could still pull hot water from my boiler as I just installed valves instead of cutting the lines.

That said, it does have a 30W conventional resistance coil for high demand times. We had my family (wife, 2 smaller kids, and my parents in law for a week). The tank did switch to normal resistive heating once in a while, but we never had water that was cooler than expected.

Now that they have gone, I've forced it into heat pump mode only. No problems so far.


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## mayhem (Mar 10, 2011)

My local Home Depot does not sell this product, even though the only hot water heaters they sell are GE.  I guess I need to do some hunting and see about this.  This sounds near ideal for my house.  My hot water tank is a zone off my 180k btu boiler and I go through probably 200+ gallons a year of oil to make hot water.  My basement is never below 50-55 and is pretty dry  As a family of 3, we don't use all that much hot water...average 12 showers a week and 6-8 loads a week in the dishwasher...we wash our hands in cold water and do the launrdy in cold too.  

This thing could easily pay for itself in 2-3 years in oil savings, even when the cost of oil comes back down some.

Carbon, I'll be interested to hear about your experiences with this thing and what your electric bill looks like.


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## CarbonNeutral (Mar 10, 2011)

mayhem said:
			
		

> My local Home Depot does not sell this product, even though the only hot water heaters they sell are GE.  I guess I need to do some hunting and see about this.  This sounds near ideal for my house.  My hot water tank is a zone off my 180k btu boiler and I go through probably 200+ gallons a year of oil to make hot water.  My basement is never below 50-55 and is pretty dry  As a family of 3, we don't use all that much hot water...average 12 showers a week and 6-8 loads a week in the dishwasher...we wash our hands in cold water and do the launrdy in cold too.
> 
> This thing could easily pay for itself in 2-3 years in oil savings, even when the cost of oil comes back down some.
> 
> Carbon, I'll be interested to hear about your experiences with this thing and what your electric bill looks like.



Lowes, and yes, I will update when I get some data


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 13, 2011)

Installed the unit yesterday in my basement and shut my boiler off for good.  I have it set for 130F and the water coming out is a lot hotter than what my indirect used to produce.  Compressor is not too loud, not really any louder than when we run the dryer or washer right next to it.  I'll be interested to see how much my electric bill goes up.  Even if it costs me $40/month, that is still significantly less than the $100/month for oil.


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## CarbonNeutral (Mar 13, 2011)

Huskyforlife said:
			
		

> Installed the unit yesterday in my basement and shut my boiler off for good.  I have it set for 130F and the water coming out is a lot hotter than what my indirect used to produce.  Compressor is not too loud, not really any louder than when we run the dryer or washer right next to it.  I'll be interested to see how much my electric bill goes up.  Even if it costs me $40/month, that is still significantly less than the $100/month for oil.



Awesome, hope it works out.


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 17, 2011)

Been checking my meter every day when I come home from work.  Looks like it is about 7KWh to run per day.  Not bad for the winter when my basement is only 53F.  I'm assuming this number should drop a bit in the summer when it is warmer.


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## mayhem (Mar 17, 2011)

So thats about $30 or so a month, right?  Fantastic.  I'm strongly leaning towards getting one of these things myself.  Even conservatively I think I use about 20 gallons a month in oil for my hot water.  If this new tank uses $40 a month in electricity year round and oil remains stable where it is, it looks like a 4 year return on investment of $1500.


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 17, 2011)

I figured my ROI at 16 months, or 1.33 years.  Oil usage from my boiler was about 25 gal/month.   I'm also assuming oil and electricity remain at the same price which are $3.70/gal and $.15/KWh respectively.  Finally, I was able to get the water heater for about $1100 installed because of the various discounts and tax credit lumped together.


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm also not including the aggravation and cost of trying to maintain a 20-year old Vaillant boiler that wasn't designed to only heat a hot water tank.  Plugged nozzles, plugged filters, you have to tear the thing down and clean it every year.


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## Huskyforlife (Mar 27, 2011)

Got my first actual electric bill yesterday.  Looks like I was off on my original estimates - the unit is only taking about 4 KWh a day to produce our hot water.  Needless to say our bill barely went up - about $20.  It probably helps that I also forced it into Heat Pump-only mode (this seems to work well - we've never ran out of hot water).  A large improvement over burning $100/month worth of oil - at this rate the install will pay for itself in 1 year!


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## CarbonNeutral (Jun 8, 2011)

A few months on with it:

It pulls at least a gallon of water out of the basement air each day. Electric bills have gone up, but not by the $20 I was expecting. I have it on heat-pump mode only and have only come close to running out once or twice. When we have a houseful I do switch to hybrid. The basement has been really nice and cool - great for when we had to spend a few hours in it because of the nearby tornadoes...


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## Huskyforlife (Jun 8, 2011)

Running mine in HP-only mode, it does a great job dehumidifying the basement.  I would have to run a dehumidifier anyway, so its nice to get free hot water as a result.


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## Don2222 (Jun 10, 2011)

Huskyforlife said:
			
		

> I'm also not including the aggravation and cost of trying to maintain a 20-year old Vaillant boiler that wasn't designed to only heat a hot water tank.  Plugged nozzles, plugged filters, you have to tear the thing down and clean it every year.



Hello Huskyforlife

My 22 year old Valliant with the tankless coil used about 300 gallons per year for DHW.
See pics below:

But my new Buderus with the 45 gallon SuperStor Ultra should use about half of that. I will know for sure in Sept when I fill the tank. So far I am on the same tank of oil since Sept 30 of last year with 1/4 tank left.

I paid last sept 2.59 per gallon
So I paid
Oil DHW 150 gallons x $2.59 per gallon is $388.50

However Oil at $3.00 per gallon
Oil DHW 150 gallons x $3.00 per gallon is $450.00

HP Electric $40.00 per month x 12 months is $480.00

or

HP Electric $30.00 per month x 12 months is $360.00

So we will see. However Oil is going up in price faster than electric!

Pics of dead 22 year old valliant Oil Boiler


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## Huskyforlife (Jun 10, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> Huskyforlife said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hi Don,

The Geospring is only using about $15 worth of electricity a month, or $180/year.  That's at CT rates which are pretty high.  So the payoff if you want to switch is a little bit quicker.


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## CarbonNeutral (Jun 10, 2011)

I reckon I'm between $10 and $15 as well with MA rates (though my rate is one of the lowest in MA)


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## Don2222 (Jul 2, 2011)

mayhem said:
			
		

> So thats about $30 or so a month, right?  Fantastic.  I'm strongly leaning towards getting one of these things myself.  Even conservatively I think I use about 20 gallons a month in oil for my hot water.  If this new tank uses $40 a month in electricity year round and oil remains stable where it is, it looks like a 4 year return on investment of $1500.



Hello mayham

I just roughly calculated 22 gallons of oil per month for DHW since I use a pellet stove for heat now. However I am considering a DHW solar panel system. There is a new German drain back system that prevents pressure build up and the Solar Panel is the latest in reflective heat technology. New England Solar sells it but the parts are probably much cheaper if you buy and install it. There are still really good tax breaks on Solar and the savings can be alot more than the Electric. Electric rates go up too but Solar is Free!!

http://neshw.com/residential/benefits-of-solar-hot-water/


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## woodgeek (Jul 2, 2011)

Don2222 said:
			
		

> mayhem said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Don, I looked at solar too....and I will still be going with the HP.

I got a quote for $13k for a small solar DHW (two panels) or $15k for a three panel system with a 50 or 80 gal storage tank, installed, pre rebate (brand was Velux).  Solar rebates in PA right now are 70% as a tax credit (!!) so my cost would be $4-5k.  While the pre rebate price seems like a lot, these were very spiffy, well engineered systems, an experienced installer in the area, and, um, I don't think DIY installs get rebates.

I had several tech concerns, which the installer confirmed:

--I checked out my insolation using this tool: http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/   and what I found out was pretty cool, my annual energy output would be about 1000 hours * my maximum output, and my output in the dead of winter would be ~0.4 times my summer output. The tool is for PV, but I can use it for solar thermal if you assume a different eff, it is basically telling you solar input.  The conclusion is that if I sized my system for fall/spring, I would have to dump some excess heat in the summer, and use some backup in the winter.

--The tank temp has to 'swing' a lot to store the solar heat--you can compute the BTUs, but to store a days input the bottom half or more of tank has to be cold at the beginning of the day.  The backup controller fires the elec coil when the top half of the tank gets cold, and shuts it down when the top half is heated.  So, when you are in backup, your DHW capacity is ~half of your tank volume (25 or 40 gallons).

Taken together, if our house used more than than half of what the tank stored daily, then we would be firing the backup a little all year round, and a lot in the winter.  So while a conventional 50 gal tank would suffice for my family, if I got a 50 gal solar system, solar would likely only provide 50-60% of my needs, with the rest backup, and we might run out a lot.  The bigger system would do better, at a cost, but was still unlikely to provide more than 70% of our needs on the solar.

In comparison, I computed that I could get either a 50 or 80 gallon HP water heater, and it would use 50-60% less elec than a conventional elec tank, and thus about the same amount as the **conventional elec backup** in the solar systems I was considering.  This year there is a $300 rebate for these guys, and I suspect that my installed cost will be about the same or less than the after rebate solar cost.

I would love hear from anyone with a actual solar DHW system to see if my logic/estimates are off base!


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## rkusek (Jul 2, 2011)

I agree still hard to justify a solar DHW because of costs.  I wish my standard home air source heat dump had some method to utilize the waste heat during the summer months to heat my DHW.  My 80 gal electric water probably accounts at least a 1/4 of our bill.  Rates are cheap here but probably not for long, especially with all the damage due to flooding on the Missouri river.  I would be great to see a new generation of home appliances that worked together with the home heating/cooling system and could also utilize the extreme outdoor temps that most of us in the US see throughout the year.


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## woodgeek (Jul 3, 2011)

huskers said:
			
		

> I agree still hard to justify a solar DHW because of costs.  I wish my standard home air source heat dump had some method to utilize the waste heat during the summer months to heat my DHW.  My 80 gal electric water probably accounts at least a 1/4 of our bill.  Rates are cheap here but probably not for long, especially with all the damage due to flooding on the Missouri river.  I would be great to see a new generation of home appliances that worked together with the home heating/cooling system and could also utilize the extreme outdoor temps that most of us in the US see throughout the year.



Yah, the surprising thing to me was not so much the cost (after rebate), but rather the _operating_ cost of solar--30% of your DHW of conventional elec can be about as expensive as a new-tech HP water heater doing 100%, or a high eff gas boiler with an indirect.  So much for sunlight being free.  Of course, you can fix my concerns above by having a solar tank with the backup coil disconnected, and then something like a HP or indirect downstream, but now you are throwing a lot of expensive hardware at the last 30%, not a good ROI.

I like your idea, but I think we're unlikely to see it in a air-source HP system.  To run efficiently, the outdoor coil and fan should be as large as possible--in AC mode that means the hot air you are exhausting should be only a bit above ambient.  

Of course, an 'economizer' is an old idea like what you're describing that could come back--they are widely used in commercial HVAC.  Basically, the idea is a whole-house fan attached to a differential temp controller--it turns on the fan whenever doing so would make the house closer to comfort (including the effects of humidity).  We could use the same idea to preheat water....


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## abrucerd (Aug 8, 2011)

Hi,

I just stumbled upon this topic, and figured I'd chime in with my experience since I've had the Geospring for about a year now.

I originally had an oil-fed hot water heater, which sprung a leak last year.  After researching, I decided to replace it with the Geospring... less dependency on oil and all that jazz.  My unit is in an unheated, unfinished, humid basement.

The instillation went great... only took 2 or 3 hours.  If anyone in central mass wants an experienced plumber, let me know... my guy was great and he did his research before he came to inspect my old setup.  It was up and running mid-August 2010, and I had it set to Pump-only mode.  My wife didn't notice any differences... so no complaints  

Around November, I did start to notice a difference in water temperature.  My wife showers first in the morning, and then me.  The water was noticeably colder (but not cold... more luke warm).  This is because of my low temp basement that houses the unit.  To combat this, I raised the set temperature and put it in Hybrid mode throughout the winter... water was much better.  When we have company over, I put it in high demand mode, just because I don't want my guests to notice anything.  In may, I went back to pump-only mode.

I haven't got a chance to use vacation mode... but I really want to cause I think it's a cool feature.  I also haven't heard the "clean filter" alarm... so that's pretty good after a year... very low maintenance.

As for cost, since I didn't have a standard electric hot water heater before, it's hard to compare.  But in the past year, I'm noticing a $50 dollar difference each month.  But again, the flip side is I don't have to order oil every year, so you can do the math there  

Overall, I'm very pleased with the unit.  I like that I can set the controls based on my needs any given day/week/month.  If anyone wants other specific information, let me know.

Cheers!


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## hemlock (Aug 11, 2011)

Regarding HPWH, is it possible to duct them outside to avoid robbing heat from the living space of your home?


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